# Cheating on the 2nd leg Erie ?



## Njdet1

Over heard some chat about disqualified shooters at 2nd leg..?


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## MR get greedy

Nothing new it's always gone on and will continue until IBO changes their format.


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## irishhacker

Texting on the course. ..


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## GreggWNY

Texting or texting yardages?


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## ibo73503

I seen several people on I,J,K,L ranges with cell phones out, also seen it in Bedford.


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## GreggWNY

With approaching storms, many people were using their cell phones to check the radar.....


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## irishhacker

Not sure...was only told "texting"


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## Sean243

Disqualification was overturned or never actually happened. Texting was definitely the reason.


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## mocheese

I was on IJKL, had my phone out several times. Not much else to do when it takes 3 hours to shoot 10 targets! Maybe if they would DQ some of the guys that take way too much time at the stake we wouldn't be on a range so long and have time to have our phones out messing around.


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## draw29

If a guy would get there at noon on Friday and hang out at the vendors and bull**** with everyone until noon on Saturday,you would probally know all the harder yardages
if you have good hearing. Thats been going on all my 20 years of shooting IBO. I never had time to do that,just see the same guys hanging around doing it. Guess you can call
them smart. Thats why I prefer ASA format. Your group has the same sun in there eyes,rain drops, and some guy that 6'5" DOESN'T HAVE A 40 FPS speed advantage on you.
Thats my observation after 20 years and IBO. Only game in town though.


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## BROX

I had mine out Fri checking the weather constantly.Storm hit on target 40


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## nochance

draw29 said:


> If a guy would get there at noon on Friday and hang out at the vendors and bull**** with everyone until noon on Saturday,you would probally know all the harder yardages
> if you have good hearing. Thats been going on all my 20 years of shooting IBO. I never had time to do that,just see the same guys hanging around doing it. Thats why I prefer ASA format. some guy that 6'5" DOESN'T HAVE A 40 FPS speed advantage on you.
> Thats my observation after 20 years and IBO. Only game in town though.


if you never had the time to do that then how can you see the same guys year after year?
Your gonna trust what someone else says the yardage is? Thats why we learn to judge.
My bow is under 300 fps and i did ok against the 340 fps guys this weekend.
When ASA come to the NE I'll give em a try.
Sounds like next year the closes ibo for me will be 6 hours. hhmmmm
Good by Erie and thank you. Wish it was staying there.


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## Njdet1

Bs there was more to it than that iwas there...


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## Njdet1

Way more to it than that..


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## nochance

Elaborate please


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## tackscall

nochance said:


> if you never had the time to do that then how can you see the same guys year after year?
> Your gonna trust what someone else says the yardage is? Thats why we learn to judge.
> My bow is under 300 fps and i did ok against the 340 fps guys this weekend.
> When ASA come to the NE I'll give em a try.
> Sounds like next year the closes ibo for me will be 6 hours. hhmmmm
> Good by Erie and thank you. Wish it was staying there.


I'm with you, I hate when I overhear a yardage. Completely screws me up


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## Njdet1

Over heard talk about extra hole being punched on a card , there were complaints of guys pulling arrows before the score was wriiten, a lot of cell phone use, a range finder was found on the course that no one claimed as of yesterday at noon.


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## T2SHOOTER

Today's World: Entitlement!


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## Njdet1

:wink:


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## Kstigall

Njdet1 said:


> Over heard some chat about disqualified shooters at 2nd leg..?





Sean243 said:


> Disqualification was overturned or never actually happened. Texting was definitely the reason.


Neither of the above events surprise me in the least. The ASA is the only archery org with any balls at all........ The IBO can't be too tough on archers because their tournament format is a sham to begin with. The first thing the NFAA does when there are "questions" is to look for ways to avoid doing anything and the NFAA by-laws virtually assure that a toutnament official will not have to act.


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## draw29

nochance said:


> if you never had the time to do that then how can you see the same guys year after year?
> Your gonna trust what someone else says the yardage is? Thats why we learn to judge.
> My bow is under 300 fps and i did ok against the 340 fps guys this weekend.
> When ASA come to the NE I'll give em a try.
> Sounds like next year the closes ibo for me will be 6 hours. hhmmmm
> Good by Erie and thank you. Wish it was staying there.


More than hearing yardage,the bigger advantage is just knowing which course to shoot at what time. Hearing that the sun is in your eyes at 10 am and this course is really 
dark at 8am could make a big difference in your outcome. It would be nice if the IBO ran the national shoots like there World championship and you would all shoot with strangers.
I just think they could do a few things that would keep things on a level playing field. I still would take that 340 bow over a 300 bow if I could handle one. Pretty good difference in drop at 45 yards between the 2. Enough said,it won't change.


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## bhtr3d

GreggWNY said:


> With approaching storms, many people were using their cell phones to check the radar.....


Lame excuse...that's what range officials are for.....and tournament directors are for.....


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## stoz

So for you who complain about format why dont you step up to semi pro , pro hunter or pro male. Shot gun start no b.s..oh also senior pro. You do have options.


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## stoz

Also peered on first and second days. I think some people just like to complain.


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## bhtr3d

stoz said:


> Also peered on first and second days. I think some people just like to complain.


That is very true


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## Camp

you still have to make the shot. right


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## J Name

but with a short draw the arrow don't spend as much time on the string so I would think the short person has the advantage.


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## Kstigall

stoz said:


> So for you who complain about format why dont you step up to semi pro , pro hunter or pro male. Shot gun start no b.s..oh also senior pro. You do have options.


Or the final option, just shoot ASA events.


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## irishhacker

J Name said:


> but with a short draw the arrow don't spend as much time on the string so I would think the short person has the advantage.


Now that is funny..[emoji1]


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## Njdet1

I think it's up to each of us to speak up and stop this cheating crap, every shoot this year I had to speak up about arrows being touched before they are scored, same with the phone addiction... The rules in black and white are NO PHONES UNLESS THERE IS AN EMERGENCY. Andas far as extra holes punched in a card.....that is as flagrant cheating as it gets..especially when it happens twice to the same guy in the same year. Range finders should Bo home or in your vehicle. Nothing worse than practicing all year attending shoots all over the country, buying 3-d targets, practicing 4-5 days a week to loose to a cheater....id like to hear from the IBO on this whole incident?


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## nhns4

Njdet1 said:


> I think it's up to each of us to speak up and stop this cheating crap, every shoot this year I had to speak up about arrows being touched before they are scored, same with the phone addiction... The rules in black and white are NO PHONES UNLESS THERE IS AN EMERGENCY. Andas far as extra holes punched in a card.....that is as flagrant cheating as it gets..especially when it happens twice to the same guy in the same year. Range finders should Bo home or in your vehicle. Nothing worse than practicing all year attending shoots all over the country, buying 3-d targets, practicing 4-5 days a week to loose to a cheater....id like to hear from the IBO on this whole incident?


Get better. Then you wont lose to "said cheater". Step your game up butter cup.


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## Njdet1

nhns4 said:


> Get better. Then you wont lose to "said cheater". Step your game up butter cup.


Really UR that stupid....


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## Fire Archer

stoz said:


> So for you who complain about format why dont you step up to semi pro , pro hunter or pro male. Shot gun start no b.s..oh also senior pro. You do have options.


I did step up to SPM and it is a lot better. There is no reason every class is not assigned times and groups though. There is pretty much two classes anyway with how you pay extra to shoot for money so why not just make money classes and trophy classes just like the World. All money classes are assigned times and trophy classes shoot when they want.


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## nochance

Kstigall said:


> Or the final option, just shoot ASA events.


Or get a clue and realize a lot of people don't have the time to drive 12-24 hours. You guys just don't get it. Bring ASA to the north east and I'll bet you'll see a lot of guys trying the assembly line shooting. You hate IBO so we should drive all over the US to make you happy and skip the shoots we enjoy that are only 3-11 hours away.


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## robinofthehood

2015 IBO rules: IV (F) 4 (e)
All forms of electronic communication are prohibited while on the shooting range unless communication is required for an emergency. Cell phones and other devices must be silenced before entering the range.

So the way I see it, if you have to communicate with family, check approaching foul weather. Do it before you get on the "RANGE".

Key words here:

"Prohibited" means PROHIBITED
"Emergency" means EMERGENCY
"Silenced" means SILENCED

If you are caught with a cell phone or electronic communication device in your hands while "on the range" and it is not an "emergency", you are in violation of this "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" rule and you should be DQ'd. period...:whip2:


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## OHIOARCHER36

nochance said:


> Or get a clue and realize a lot of people don't have the time to drive 12-24 hours. You guys just don't get it. Bring ASA to the north east and I'll bet you'll see a lot of guys trying the assembly line shooting. You hate IBO so we should drive all over the US to make you happy and skip the shoots we enjoy that are only 3-11 hours away.


this .......


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## OHIOARCHER36

robinofthehood said:


> 2015 IBO rules: IV (F) 4 (e)
> All forms of electronic communication are prohibited while on the shooting range unless communication is required for an emergency. Cell phones and other devices must be silenced before entering the range.
> 
> So the way I see it, if you have to communicate with family, check approaching foul weather. Do it before you get on the "RANGE".
> 
> Key words here:
> 
> "Prohibited" means PROHIBITED
> "Emergency" means EMERGENCY
> "Silenced" means SILENCED
> 
> If you are caught with a cell phone or electronic communication device in your hands while "on the range" and it is not an "emergency", you are in violation of this "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" rule and you should be DQ'd. period...:whip2:



this


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## T2SHOOTER

In most of the events this year rudeness prevails, rules are broken, officials try in some cases but seem to look the other way. Participants can make a different. Speak up and while it's offensive to those breaking the rules, being rude, or just clueless, it makes a difference. The sad thing is you have to act, and that takes its toll on your emotions. For those on here that condone the rudeness, the cell phone use, rangefinder, pulling arrows before scored and pacify the behavior and speaking ill of others, your idiocy is noted. "Be Better"! And play by the rules.


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## 12sonly

And who inforces this,the same people that let friends shoot together.


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## Fury90flier

bhtr3d said:


> Lame excuse...that's what range officials are for.....and tournament directors are for.....


yea, if the shooter can't change as the conditions change they need more practice.



nhns4 said:


> Get better. Then you wont lose to "said cheater". Step your game up butter cup.


Exactly what a cheater would say



Easy solution to all this phone usage... search everyone before range entry...take anything that might have the possibility of being used as a cheat device.


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## nhns4

Fury90flier said:


> yea, if the shooter can't change as the conditions change they need more practice.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what a cheater would say


Lmao. Nope. I dont put the time or effort in to be some 3d stud. I just shoot the bow to shoot the bow.


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## T2SHOOTER

Just a loose tongue stud. Amazing!


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## nhns4

T2SHOOTER said:


> Just a loose tongue stud. Amazing!


Thats what she said.


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## irishhacker

Fury90flier said:


> Easy solution to all this phone usage... search everyone before range entry...take anything that might have the possibility of being used as a cheat device.


Good idea in theory,, but there are too many liability issues if they did this


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## stoz

nochance said:


> Or get a clue and realize a lot of people don't have the time to drive 12-24 hours. You guys just don't get it. Bring ASA to the north east and I'll bet you'll see a lot of guys trying the assembly line shooting. You hate IBO so we should drive all over the US to make you happy and skip the shoots we enjoy that are only 3-11 hours away.


Agreed


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## stoz

In my opinion its this simple. If you're good enough that you believe you're being beat by a cheater than pay the money and go to one of the pro or semi classes and stop your crying and play. I know the people being accused of cheating and they are great shots and have proven it in peer groups. Are the rules being followed, idk but if you're that good you belong in one of the other peered classes any how.


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## outbackarcher

Since this topic is up let's discuss. How can we make the IBO better? I have been think of way to give everyone shooting times to help eliminate the cheating. I have had a few conversations with Bryan about it and will let my shoot (1st Leg of the NTC) be the test session if need be. 

Let's all put our heads together and get a positive plan together. I will propose it to the IBO for consideration. 

I have thought of shoot times which will work but there's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone through the range. If we got to load the ranges for a shotgun start it's going to take a lot more ranges to make that work and the walk through ranges will have to change. 

Let's hear some good ideas.


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## nochance

outbackarcher said:


> Since this topic is up let's discuss. How can we make the IBO better? I have been think of way to give everyone shooting times to help eliminate the cheating. I have had a few conversations with Bryan about it and will let my shoot (1st Leg of the NTC) be the test session if need be.
> Let's all put our heads together and get a positive plan together. I will propose it to the IBO for consideration.
> I have thought of shoot times which will work but there's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone through the range. If we got to load the ranges for a shotgun start it's going to take a lot more ranges to make that work and the walk through ranges will have to change.
> Let's hear some good ideas.


To start with, the rest of the IBO should be doing what you guys are doing. Asking the customers how to make it better. Seems like the WV crew is the only ones doing that. I'd say split groups up but it seems like I always get put with people i don't know but i do see teams shooting together occasionally. I like the option of being able to shoot some or all my targets on 3 different days. I think this keeps the numbers up since people have differnet schedules with work etc. Looking forward to WV next year! you guys are doing a great job!


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## bsharkey

stoz said:


> In my opinion its this simple. If you're good enough that you believe you're being beat by a cheater than pay the money and go to one of the pro or semi classes and stop your crying and play. I know the people being accused of cheating and they are great shots and have proven it in peer groups. Are the rules being followed, idk but if you're that good you belong in one of the other peered classes any how.


it has nothing to do with thinking that I am "that good" but everything to do with getting cheated out of a good placing if I shoot out of my arse that day. I loose all the time, but some days I pull a great shoot out of my behind.on that day id rather not get cheated out of a good place in the scorers line because some A-Hole cheated.


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## outbackarcher

We try splitting people up but it seems to differ from tent to tent. That's why we need something in place to assign times. Tee times will be easier using 3 days, however you get advantages and disadvantages with the weather but we can't control that.


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## outbackarcher

bsharkey said:


> it has nothing to do with thinking that I am "that good" but everything to do with getting cheated out of a good placing if I shoot out of my arse that day. I loose all the time, but some days I pull a great shoot out of my behind.on that day id rather not get cheated out of a good place in the scorers line because some A-Hole cheated.


That's why we need to change the system. We can beat the cheating.


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## dottrz

nochance said:


> To start with, the rest of the IBO should be doing what you guys are doing. Asking the customers how to make it better. Seems like the WV crew is the only ones doing that. I'd say split groups up but it seems like I always get put with people i don't know but i do see teams shooting together occasionally. I like the option of being able to shoot some or all my targets on 3 different days. I think this keeps the numbers up since people have differnet schedules with work etc. Looking forward to WV next year! you guys are doing a great job!


WV Crew is interested because they are the only one's going forward from here. Nobody else wants to change, because this is their last go 'round. That being said, with new venues all the way around next year, why NOT try some new angles, rules modifications/changes, etc.? I'm not sure the 3 day format works for everyone, personally, but maybe there is something that can be worked out, like a 2 day format.


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## outbackarcher

The 3 day format is what we have now. Which we would need a way for the guys wanting to shoot on Friday to be able to pick that option. You would have 2 twenty targets days. This would end 40 in one day.


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## nochance

bsharkey said:


> it has nothing to do with thinking that I am "that good" but everything to do with getting cheated out of a good placing if I shoot out of my arse that day. I loose all the time, but some days I pull a great shoot out of my behind.on that day id rather not get cheated out of a good place in the scorers line because some A-Hole cheated.


Maybe just maybe he beat you without cheating?


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## HT Redneck

The rules are there they just need to be followed and participants need to use a bit of common sense.

My wife and I both shoot and often times our two kids are left at home hours away with a some sort of sitter. We keep the cell with us and silenced but may check it occasionally to check to see if there was a call or txt from home. With that said we tell everyone in the group what is going in and we don't actually use the phone. No one has ever had an issue with that.

If you shot a course don't talk about it where those that have not yet shot can over hear, or better yet don't discuss enough details at all until the shoot is done. 

Groups should be broken, but with that said it only takes one person to break a group of 4. 

If given the option I would rather shoot in good weather so given the option that what we prefer to do. Having specific shoot times would force you to shoot in which ever weather conditions are there which would level the playing field however would also reduce the number of shooters because it significantly reduces the options to work around life conflicts work/travel/life.

Either shoot pro class at each event where the competition is legit or show up at worlds where it really matters.... 

We need to look at ways to draw more shooters and not turn the ones we have away.

As for the ASA if you shoot them great, but that like many have said they aren't in the Northeast, that not IBO so whats your point!!!


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## outbackarcher

HT ******* said:


> The rules are there they just need to be followed and participants need to use a bit of common sense.
> 
> My wife and I both shoot and often times our two kids are left at home hours away with a some sort of sitter. We keep the cell with us and silenced but may check it occasionally to check to see if there was a call or txt from home. With that said we tell everyone in the group what is going in and we don't actually use the phone. No one has ever had an issue with that.
> 
> If you shot a course don't talk about it where those that have not yet shot can over hear, or better yet don't discuss enough details at all until the shoot is done.
> 
> Groups should be broken, but with that said it only takes one person to break a group of 4.
> 
> If given the option I would rather shoot in good weather so given the option that what we prefer to do. Having specific shoot times would force you to shoot in which ever weather conditions are there which would level the playing field however would also reduce the number of shooters because it significantly reduces the options to work around life conflicts work/travel/life.
> 
> Either shoot pro class at each event where the competition is legit or show up at worlds where it really matters....
> 
> We need to look at ways to draw more shooters and not turn the ones we have away.
> 
> As for the ASA if you shoot them great, but that like many have said they aren't in the Northeast, that not IBO so whats your point!!!


I agree that 1 person busts a group of 4, however what I have noticed is that we bust the group and hand score cards to people to keep score and then the group changes score keepers and the 2 that keep score may be buddies....is the group really busted?

I don't think that assigning shooting times and therefore groups would hurt the attendence of the event. Afterall this is a national archery competition and needs to be run like one. The ASA guys don't complain about a level playing field with shotgun starts why should the IBO guys. These events can be alot better. Shooting time will help the vendor traffic and bring more vendors to the event. I hear guys complain that are not enough vendors at the events and then they shoot all 40 on Friday and go home. We can do better and help the IBO grow. What we have going on now isn't necessarily the best thing going. All you read is negative, people cheating, no vendors, etc. We CAN do better. If we organize better we may loose a few shooters, but how many will we gain. I know dozens that have quit shooting the IBO because to them it is a glorified local shoot and the good ol boys win until the IBO World where the playing field is a little more level. Everyone has ideas but we have to think them through before we present them to the board.


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## cenochs

Good conversation..one point to remember these are national shoots and should be organized and treated like a national event. These events are not and should not cater to everyone. You must have assigned shoot times and assigned groups. If you compete for money or shooter of the year every competitor has to compete at the same time on the range. Allowing archers to pick and choose what day and time they want to shoot is not correct


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## Kstigall

nochance said:


> Or get a clue and realize a lot of people don't have the time to drive 12-24 hours. You guys just don't get it. Bring ASA to the north east and I'll bet you'll see a lot of guys trying the assembly line shooting. You hate IBO so we should drive all over the US to make you happy and skip the shoots we enjoy that are only 3-11 hours away.


Get a clue you say...... I've shot IBO in the past. When I started shooting the big 3D shoots I thought I'd primarily shoot IBO. The IBO shoots are CLOSER to me than the ASA shoots! I understand perfectly why the IBO has a strong has a good tournament turn out and it's not because of loyalty or that they have a great game. It's because they are the only game in town! After a few IBO tournaments I decide I'd rather drive 12 hours to an ASA tournament than 8 hours to an IBO tournament because of how the tournaments are organized. I was shooting fixed pins back then and there was a lot I liked about the IBO. I like shooting center 11's. I know the Rinehart targets are better than McKenzies though the Mckenzies are better today than they were 2 years ago..

I do NOT hate the IBO! I make noise because I KNOW that there could be much better 3D tournaments in the IBO region if the IBO wasn't hard headed. Very rarely can an original good idea NOT be improved upon. Rarely can a product go decades with little or no improvements and continue to survive.



cenochs said:


> Good conversation..one point to remember these are national shoots and should be organized and treated like a national event. These events are not and should not cater to everyone. You must have assigned shoot times and assigned groups. If you compete for money or shooter of the year every competitor has to compete at the same time on the range. Allowing archers to pick and choose what day and time they want to shoot is not correct


*EXACTLY!! *


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## schmel_me

outbackarcher said:


> I agree that 1 person busts a group of 4, however what I have noticed is that we bust the group and hand score cards to people to keep score and then the group changes score keepers and the 2 that keep score may be buddies....is the group really busted?
> 
> I don't think that assigning shooting times and therefore groups would hurt the attendence of the event. Afterall this is a national archery competition and needs to be run like one. The ASA guys don't complain about a level playing field with shotgun starts why should the IBO guys. These events can be alot better. Shooting time will help the vendor traffic and bring more vendors to the event. I hear guys complain that are not enough vendors at the events and then they shoot all 40 on Friday and go home. We can do better and help the IBO grow. What we have going on now isn't necessarily the best thing going. All you read is negative, people cheating, no vendors, etc. We CAN do better. If we organize better we may loose a few shooters, but how many will we gain. I know dozens that have quit shooting the IBO because to them it is a glorified local shoot and the good ol boys win until the IBO World where the playing field is a little more level. Everyone has ideas but we have to think them through before we present them to the board.




spot on! I can think of only 4-5 people that shoot ibo from WI. We drive right through ibo country to hit up the ASA shoots. WI has a good number of asa members for good reason. I would love to support the ibo like many did years ago but not until there board makes some changes. Its time


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## #1phinsfan

I love the ibo and I attend every national shoot. I myself haven't witnessed any cheating but if I do I WILL call them out immediately! I've got way to much time, money, and energy invested in this sport to be cheated out of a fair chance. I also agree with everyone else there there should be scheduled shoot times to speed things up. The ibo typically posts there schedule early in the year so why can't all current members just be required to pre register by a certain date? And any new members that sign up at shoots could be walk ins for that shoot but be required to pre register by the next one. This way we could all be assigned groups and shoot times and end the cheating and SPEED up the waits.


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## victor001

Didn't the ASA have a few shoot's in the N.E. with little response ?


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## wvbowhunter06

People at tent at several national shoots need to be more stern. For example I handed in my card Saturday at Erie. A person called my name out with 3 others. There buddy was mad my name got called an he didn't. He walks to tent talks to the person. Boom I get kiles out of that group an put with someone else. I always go to shoots by myself so I have no friends to go with me. I had to wait a extended period of time for another few people....rant over


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## irishhacker

ASA is meant to be fun...those new yorkers and other grumpy NE guys don't like fun.
They prefer to complain about others cheating while they are cheating themselves. .ie..pulling arrows before all scores are recorded. .texting between every single target


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## bhtr3d

victor001 said:


> Didn't the ASA have a few shoot's in the N.E. with little response ?


 Never.....farthest up the east side is Roanoke va......

There was a time as a had a regional event but just a larger scaled qualifier is all they were


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## Sean243

They've started down the road of preregistration already. The next step is staggered, set shoot times. We get them at worlds causing us to deal with what we get and the weather that goes with it. That's part of the game in my book, sure I'd prefer no rain and slight overcast most of the time, but then again it's an outdoor shoot. Weather is going to be part of the equation.

I'm not saying you get a scheduled shoot time whenever they say you get it. I'm saying during preregistration, you select one hour windows - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. It'll be first come first serve.... so be it. Then randomly assign shooters to groups out of each of their requested time slots. Leave openings in every hour slot for "walk-ins". Walk-ins don't get to choose times, only the days they shoot. Select an early and a late time on the same day if you intend to shoot all 40. Flexibility on the part of the IBO would be required within reason for people that have unforeseeable delays getting to the shoot and for equipment issues, although that's not the case at worlds anyhow.

If it sounds like it would be somewhat complicated, it's because it would be. The easy solutions are the free for all we have now or the ASA shootgun starts. If we want something in between, we're going to have to put our heads together and come up with something to take to the IBO. It's a national shoot, if we plan to compete at that level, we should be willing to deal with shooting on a schedule of some sort. Once again, we do it for worlds.

I would prefer to see things stay same and shoot whenever it's most convenient, but since there are some real dirt bags out there that can't play the game fairly, that's not going to remain an option. Let's keep this conversation going, feels like it's building some momentum. Stay the same and lose almost all legitimacy, start shooting the assembly line ASA shootgun starts, or work at coming up with something in between.


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## outbackarcher

We need some sort of structure and the reason I brought it here is my head hurts from thinking about different senerios and I want to hear everyones input. I for one don't think leaving the same is an option but that is just my opinion.


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## stoz

outbackarcher said:


> We need some sort of structure and the reason I brought it here is my head hurts from thinking about different senerios and I want to hear everyones input. I for one don't think leaving the same is an option but that is just my opinion.


I think tee times would work but it would have to be assigned so you can't pick them bc you would have buddies picking same times.it would have to be like worlds.


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## stoz

The biggest thing ibo needs is more fresh people like you Larry that will listen and try. New venues will probably help too so people dont see the same tired courses. Hope the new location s this year might help.


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## darton3d

bhtr3d said:


> Never.....farthest up the east side is Roanoke va......
> 
> There was a time as a had a regional event but just a larger scaled qualifier is all they were


Not true. In 1993, there was an ASA National shoot in Lewisberry, Pa at Ski Roundtop and from what I remember it was well attended. I may be wrong but I think they held another shoot in PA years later after Wayne sold it.
The problem now bringing the ASA into the northeast is that people aren't going to change their IBO set up for one shoot a year. In my opinion, and it just my opinion, Regions would have done well if they had come into the Northeast with the ASA format, ASA scoring and IBO equipment rules. As it was they changed to allow IBO equipment too late before the PA shoot and then never came back despite it being their best attended shoot of their first year.


----------



## Kstigall

outbackarcher said:


> We need some sort of structure and the reason I brought it here is my head hurts from thinking about different senerios and I want to hear everyones input. I for one don't think leaving the same is an option but that is just my opinion.


Agreed. Generally speaking, running EVERY Triple crown shoot like the World's is probably the first option. You wouldn't have to peer group as random grouping will suffice. 

Have you been to an ASA shoot? If not go check it out. I'm not saying shoot it. One thing they do with great efficiency is that you can arrive on site Friday noon without preregistering and within a few minutes after approaching the registration trailer you'll have a card with your stake number and range assignment. If you want to sign on for team shoot you can and also the Sims course and practice range. All done in a few minutes. Walk the ranges while people are shooting. You'll notice people in different groups chatting it up. You'll notice that you aren't the only observer walking the ranges...... The entire tournament is structured such that people aren't "winging it". For the most part it would be best to actively participate. 

There's nothing wrong with learning from your "opponent" and in fact it's foolish not to do so.


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## outbackarcher

Kstigall said:


> Agreed. Generally speaking, running EVERY Triple crown shoot like the World's is probably the first option. You wouldn't have to peer group as random grouping will suffice.
> 
> Have you been to an ASA shoot? If not go check it out. I'm not saying shoot it. One thing they do with great efficiency is that you can arrive on site Friday noon without preregistering and within a few minutes after approaching the registration trailer you'll have a card with your stake number and range assignment. If you want to sign on for team shoot you can and also the Sims course and practice range. All done in a few minutes. Walk the ranges while people are shooting. You'll notice people in different groups chatting it up. You'll notice that you aren't the only observer walking the ranges...... The entire tournament is structured such that people aren't "winging it". For the most part it would be best to actively participate.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with learning from your "opponent" and in fact it's foolish not to do so.


Oh yeah I shoot the ASA. Lifetime member also. The ASA range format will be tough to do in the hills. Also you have to have several more ranges to shotgun start everyone.


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## Carpy100

does anyone know if this shooter texting was turned in to the IBO?


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## hoosierredneck

Outbackarcher has alot of good suggestions for changing the structure of how these shoots are run,i will be interested to see how far this goes with the people in charge of making the rules.until there are willing to listen and accept there are problems with how things are run right now there won't be any changes.but please keep trying,it will be people like you that make this a great event again,


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## GWFH

stoz said:


> The biggest thing ibo needs is more fresh people like you Larry that will listen and try. New venues will probably help too so people dont see the same tired courses. Hope the new location s this year might help.


OK, so here's a thought......
Many if not all of the griped items (scheduled start, busted groups, etc) would not violate the existing charter.
In other words, the IBO wouldn't necessarily have to change any existing rules.

So, can it be assumed that the hosting club can add structure?....and require when and with who people go out with. This already happens at each tent. What if it was done formally?
Yes, would need pre-registration and the IBO would need to assist with this.
How many people would this deter? I would think that percentage to be small.

Can the new hosting clubs take the initiative to do this? Now would be the time to plan.


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## outbackarcher

The clubs can do it but the IBO needs to be the one to handle it so it is consistent.


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## reylamb

bhtr3d said:


> Never.....farthest up the east side is Roanoke va......
> 
> There was a time as a had a regional event but just a larger scaled qualifier is all they were


They had at least 1 in PA sometime in the mid 2000's.....may have been 2, but I don't remember....


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## wannaBelkhuntin

I joined the IBO finally last year so I could try to qualify for the Worlds. I have wanted to shoot competitively for a long time [20+ years] but would not do it because as an outsider all you ever hear about is all the cheating that groups of friends do, I do not understand how you can be proud of winning/placing in a tournament if you cheat. Well now I am 58 and I finally said to hell with it I am going to go shoot. My driving force has been my grand daughter was a National Champion at 11 years old, she's a paper puncher but she is a Champion.
I think sean243 has some good ideas. If the IBO fears losing shooters because they have to be more structured, ie; shoot times I feel that they would more than make up for it with people that would decide to join or that would come back if the cheating was curtailed. From someone that has watched from afar for years it is sad to say but cheaters and the IBO were hand in hand. It is time to change. 
Also I read the other day about having the Pro's shoot the last few targets in an open area where fans could actually get to see them shoot a few times and maybe get to meet some of them. I have been to to the Worlds and the first 2 legs of the Triple Crown and wouldn't have a clue if I was talking to a Pro or Joe blow, I might recognize Levi but that would be all. And Erie was even sadder as the Pro's weren't even shooting at the same location.
Also I shot with a person that shot HC, I shoot SHC and we both were using a Doinker Unity Hunter set up. He was well outside of the specs and I did not confront him about it nor did I report him. Now I wish I had.


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## bhtr3d

I'd have to back through my records....I've only missed a few since 92


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## KricketStevens

Maybe require pre-registration and peer grouping for anyone who was in the top 40-50% of their class based on previous tournament and/or previous years World Championship scores. That way you would have your top shooters in each class shooting peer groupsr and should eliminate some of the issues and keep scores honest.


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## bsharkey

nochance said:


> Maybe just maybe he beat you without cheating?


I don't doubt that I get beat by a ton of people who don't cheat. And wasn't claiming that,that was the reason I lost. What I am saying is that the ones who do cheat just push me farther down the line.
Slow down next time you read something so you can possible comprehend what you are reading.


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## nochance

outbackarcher said:


> You would have 2 twenty targets days. This would end 40 in one day.


why?


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## nochance

bsharkey said:


> I don't doubt that I get beat by a ton of people who don't cheat. And wasn't claiming that,that was the reason I lost. What I am saying is that the ones who do cheat just push me farther down the line.
> Slow down next time you read something so you can possible comprehend what you are reading.


Understood, just tired of hearing about all the cheaters...mostly on archery talk. I took 3rd in my class but to hear guys on here that must mean i cheated, **ck em! I don't doubt that it happens but its not as prevalent as some lead on to believe. Happens in ASA as well. Hope to see you out there some time!

Lots of good ideas here.


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## bsharkey

Nice shooting congrats


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## ibo73503

I rather like the peer grouping idea after each leg of the triple crown. BUT, you will run into some conflicts there as well. For instance, Jerry Mullet in the mbo class is amish, which means that he can't shoot on Sunday due to his religion. Does he have to suffer because he is of a different religion than the majority of the shooters? Does it mean that he cheats because he shoots high scores because he shoots Fri. and Sat. I have shot with the man and can say for sure that he doesn't. He could even suffer if no one in the peer groups agrees to shoot all 40 targets on Saturday in Marengo with him.


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## hoytdude1974

I like the format that the IBO uses for the World Championships allot better than their current National Triple Crown set up. They could run the same format that is used in the IBO world championships for the National Shoots. Pre-registration should be required then the groups can be pre-busted up (just like the worlds) and run two 20 target days (Saturday/Sunday). Late signups can still shoot, but they do not compete for the shoot (kind of like trophy class at worlds), but with no winner, but they will get all the leftover time slots too.


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## mustang kid

IBO is a joke. You have a group of guys that load up from say eastern Kentucky and travel together, I can assure you they will shoot in a group together whenever they want, and it's a given that they will all shoot good on the scorecard.

The IBO wont fix any cheaters until they learn what SHOOT TIMES are.


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## wvbowhunter06

Ibo7353 if jerry don't shoot on sunday might be the only way to beat him for the triple crown. Jerry is a real good friend of mine an yes it's all crazy that cheating gas take the game to we're it is.


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## bhtr3d

reylamb said:


> They had at least 1 in PA sometime in the mid 2000's.....may have been 2, but I don't remember....


Yup...we were there in 2005.....what's worse I was there....must not be that memorable. ..lol


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## stoz

Back in the 90's they peered after the first leg of the nationals. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to do that again.


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## irishhacker

ibo73503 said:


> I rather like the peer grouping idea after each leg of the triple crown. BUT, you will run into some conflicts there as well. For instance, Jerry Mullet in the mbo class is amish, which means that he can't shoot on Sunday due to his religion. Does he have to suffer because he is of a different religion than the majority of the shooters? Does it mean that he cheats because he shoots high scores because he shoots Fri. and Sat. I have shot with the man and can say for sure that he doesn't. He could even suffer if no one in the peer groups agrees to shoot all 40 targets on Saturday in Marengo with him.


No offense to Jerry, but you cannot expect an organization to make exclusions because 1 guy has a different religion. 
Me personally, I would not shoot all 40 on Saturday to satisfy one guy.


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## tuckarch

draw29 said:


> If a guy would get there at noon on Friday and hang out at the vendors and bull**** with everyone until noon on Saturday,you would probally know all the harder yardages
> if you have good hearing. Thats been going on all my 20 years of shooting IBO. I never had time to do that,just see the same guys hanging around doing it. Guess you can call
> them smart. Thats why I prefer ASA format. Your group has the same sun in there eyes,rain drops, *and some guy that 6'5" DOESN'T HAVE A 40 FPS speed advantage on you.*
> Thats my observation after 20 years and IBO. Only game in town though.


Aint that the truth buddy! Wish the ASA was closer or something new was in town..


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## 3D Pinwheeler

stoz said:


> So for you who complain about format why dont you step up to semi pro , pro hunter or pro male. Shot gun start no b.s..oh also senior pro. You do have options.


 Not to bust your grapes but wasn't there a texting yardage issue not too many years ago in PMR? It can happen in any class in IBO. Some can't afford paying the extra entry fee for the minimal payback you might receive. Get more officials on course that know the rules like Asa does and don't leave it up to a shooter to enforce rules after paying to shoot a National Event.


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## sagecreek

Just make it all known, then you won't have to text the yardages.


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## rayray8302

How does jerry mullet shoot mbo??? Ibo73503 I know for a fact jerry shoots pro in the nfaa so if he shoots pro in that organization shouldn't he have to shoot pro in the ibo??? I know he shot sat and Sunday in Louisville this past year because we watched him


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## irishhacker

rayray8302 said:


> How does jerry mullet shoot mbo??? Ibo73503 I know for a fact jerry shoots pro in the nfaa so if he shoots pro in that organization shouldn't he have to shoot pro in the ibo??? I know he shot sat and Sunday in Louisville this past year because we watched him


2015 IBO Rules 
C. Pro and Semi-Pro Classes
1. An archer who registers for a Pro or Semi-Pro class during any one IBO shooting year
must remain in that class for the entire duration of that IBO tournament year except that
an archer may move up to Semi-Pro, or a Semi-Pro archer may move up to a Pro class.
Archers who move from Semi-Pro to Pro during the IBO shooting year may not drop
back down to compete as an amateur or Semi-Pro at an IBO-sanctioned event for the
remainder of that IBO tournament year.
2. An archer who registers as a Pro or Semi-Pro in another 3-D shooting organization must
register to compete at the same or higher level at IBO-sanctioned events.
3. A Pro or Semi-Pro archer must be an IBO member to participate in any IBO-sanctioned
event.


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## Fire Archer

outbackarcher said:


> I agree that 1 person busts a group of 4, however what I have noticed is that we bust the group and hand score cards to people to keep score and then the group changes score keepers and the 2 that keep score may be buddies....is the group really busted?
> 
> I don't think that assigning shooting times and therefore groups would hurt the attendence of the event. Afterall this is a national archery competition and needs to be run like one. The ASA guys don't complain about a level playing field with shotgun starts why should the IBO guys. These events can be alot better. Shooting time will help the vendor traffic and bring more vendors to the event. I hear guys complain that are not enough vendors at the events and then they shoot all 40 on Friday and go home. We can do better and help the IBO grow. What we have going on now isn't necessarily the best thing going. All you read is negative, people cheating, no vendors, etc. We CAN do better. If we organize better we may loose a few shooters, but how many will we gain. I know dozens that have quit shooting the IBO because to them it is a glorified local shoot and the good ol boys win until the IBO World where the playing field is a little more level. Everyone has ideas but we have to think them through before we present them to the board.



I agree 100%. I have said it for years that it is a national shoot and should be ran like one. I have not shot for two years now and the buddy system is the main reason I have not. I said it other day and got criticized over it but it is true that you could win any of the three legs of the Nationals and shoot very few, if any targets. It would be easy to do but guys just don't realize how easy it could be. Here is how easy it would be: 4 buddies walk up to tent and get sent out. One of them just does not shoot any targets and writes down whatever score he wants to. He pencils in a high enough score and he just may win the whole thing. It could be done and there isn't really anything to stop it. I am sorry but there is some guys out there that would do this. As I said earlier the way the IBO runs the classes now with having to pay extra to shoot for money would make it easy to do shoot times. Money shooters have to pre-register and get shoot times and trophy classes just shoot for fun when they want as they do at the World. I agree that you would gain more than you would lose. Guys spend quite a bit of money just to be able to attend one of these shoots and that is not counting equipment. They don't want to spend all their hard earned money to go shoot just to get beat by a cheater. It's not just archery though, it is in any type of competition there is.


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## reylamb

bhtr3d said:


> Yup...we were there in 2005.....what's worse I was there....must not be that memorable. ..lol


It wasn't...really poor attendance, but I seem to recall the facilities were nice.



3D Pinwheeler said:


> Not to bust your grapes but wasn't there a texting yardage issue not too many years ago in PMR? It can happen in any class in IBO. Some can't afford paying the extra entry fee for the minimal payback you might receive. Get more officials on course that know the rules like Asa does and don't leave it up to a shooter to enforce rules after paying to shoot a National Event.


ASA also had the texting issue....the ringefinding bino's in semi pro, pros ranging the shootdown targets, a group of youth shooters were caught clearly pencil whipping the rest of their class......so even in ASA it ain't impossible to cheat, but it does take much more work.


----------



## stoz

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Not to bust your grapes but wasn't there a texting yardage issue not too many years ago in PMR? It can happen in any class in IBO. Some can't afford paying the extra entry fee for the minimal payback you might receive. Get more officials on course that know the rules like Asa does and don't leave it up to a shooter to enforce rules after paying to shoot a National Event.


Im not saying it will cure every thing but im sure asa has thier issues too. All im saying is you're on top and you feel that you're being beat by someone then pay the extra 100. And the texting yardages would be busted quick in peer groups trust me. If you're pulling out your phone you best be telling what you're doing.


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## Fire Archer

outbackarcher said:


> We try splitting people up but it seems to differ from tent to tent. That's why we need something in place to assign times. Tee times will be easier using 3 days, however you get advantages and disadvantages with the weather but we can't control that.


Is this something you could do next year at 1st leg or is it on the IBO to do this? Are you talking to them about assigned times? They'd just have to use the world format.


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## field14

stoz said:


> Im not saying it will cure every thing but im sure asa has thier issues too. All im saying is you're on top and you feel that you're being beat by someone then pay the extra 100. And the texting yardages would be busted quick in peer groups trust me. If you're pulling out your phone you best be telling what you're doing.


Phones should NOT be allowed on the course, or if they are, then they are on vibrate and will NOT be pulled out to "check for messages, e-mails and such. Same with sight settings and using an app instead of a site tape on the bow sight. Too easy to "cheat" by checking messages and texts from others out on the courses.
Don't think for a minute that texting isn't being done out there? By those finishing on the podium? Doubtful. By the wannabees, wouldn't doubt it for an instant.
Also, Hand signals, eye blinks, scratching between or on buttons on a shirt, counting taps of the arrow on the leg, or attempts to nock the arrow (YES! I have seen this being done at 3-D shoots, folks) and all sorts of little games are played all the time...but if you bust up the groups, it makes things a tad more difficult to have a "Ringer" in the same group as the guy they hope to help do well! Doesn't give 'em exact yardages as it could with texting...but sure cuts down on that "error" by knowing your 'pardner' shot the target for xx yards, et cetera.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Fire Archer

stoz said:


> Im not saying it will cure every thing but im sure asa has thier issues too. All im saying is you're on top and you feel that you're being beat by someone then pay the extra 100. And the texting yardages would be busted quick in peer groups trust me. If you're pulling out your phone you best be telling what you're doing.


Pros look at their phones all the time. I agree that it is breaking a rule and should be dealt with but they still do it. Assigned shoot times and range officials with gonads will help a lot of the cheating.


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## stoz

field14 said:


> Phones should NOT be allowed on the course, or if they are, then they are on vibrate and will NOT be pulled out to "check for messages, e-mails and such. Same with sight settings and using an app instead of a site tape on the bow sight. Too easy to "cheat" by checking messages and texts from others out on the courses.
> Don't think for a minute that texting isn't being done out there? By those finishing on the podium? Doubtful. By the wannabees, wouldn't doubt it for an instant.
> Also, Hand signals, eye blinks, scratching between or on buttons on a shirt, counting taps of the arrow on the leg, or attempts to nock the arrow (YES! I have seen this being done at 3-D shoots, folks) and all sorts of little games are played all the time...but if you bust up the groups, it makes things a tad more difficult to have a "Ringer" in the same group as the guy they hope to help do well! Doesn't give 'em exact yardages as it could with texting...but sure cuts down on that "error" by knowing your 'pardner' shot the target for xx yards, et cetera.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I don't disagree that some of this may happen, thats why I say pay the extra and get into a class that this stuff is at a minimum. If you're peered its almost never with a team mate. I see very few phones out on pro ranges.on amateur ranges it is common place.


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## stoz

Fire Archer said:


> Pros look at their phones all the time. I agree that it is breaking a rule and should be dealt with but they still do it. Assigned shoot times and range officials with gonads will help a lot of the cheating.


Not that I've seen. Im not on pro range but with semi pros.


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## field14

stoz said:


> I don't disagree that some of this may happen, thats why I say pay the extra and get into a class that this stuff is at a minimum. If you're peered its almost never with a team mate. I see very few phones out on pro ranges.on amateur ranges it is common place.


EASY solution...the IBO and ASA, and yes, the NFAA (all known distance) need to grow some cajunas and simply ENFORCE THE RULES and not leave it to "peer enforcement." Peer enforcement is seldom successful..."What happens on the bale/target, stays on the bale/target."
IF it is in the rules about cell phone usage, then dang it ENFORCE IT! Do that a couple of times and DQ the person/people on the spot, pro or joe and it would stop or severely curtail the ILLEGAL activity. 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## 48archer

Wouldn't making it all known yardage take care a lot of the BS.


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## hoosierredneck

48archer said:


> Wouldn't making it all known yardage take care a lot of the BS.


No.if said shooter hits a 8 he will still pencil in a 10.


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## draw29

This has nothing to do with cheating but the IBO also makes it really tuff for you win sometimes. I went to Bedford last year and handed my cards in at tent,there was several of my peers there and was hoping I would shoot with that group.4 of my peers went out together and then i got sent out with 4 young kids all shooting around 20 yards. I had to shoot 1st everytime . The kids were fun to shoot with but I drove 8 hours to shoot to try to win and I just felt I was at a total disadvantage. Having an arrow to shoot at is diffently a plus on dark targets and long shots. I learned my lesson on that and now just stand around at the tent until I see some adults that might be shooting my class and then walk up and hand my cards in.The guys at the tents only care about getting you on and off the course. I sure enjoy the 2 ASA shoots I go to every year shooting right with my peers under the same weather conditions at the same time. I just feel there a level playing field then.


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## ibo73503

What about when the IBO allows things to happen that are against their written rules? I noticed that one of the teams listed( not going to state the class), has changed a member from the first leg to the second leg. The rules clearly state that you can not change the members of a team during the team event which is the entire triple crown. I don't see how the shooters can be expected to follow the rules when the organization doesn't do it. Maybe there are special cases that I don't know about that makes it legal, but I think it should be out lined in the rules so every one knows it.


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## Fire Archer

stoz said:


> Not that I've seen. Im not on pro range but with semi pros.


I shot SPM as well and the pros are on their phones. I have seen them. How do you think they know how everyone is shooting that day? Bottom line is the rule says "PROHIBITED". Shouldnt be out at any given time. Never. You start putting officials on these courses and disqualifying guys on the spot for infractions, a lot of it would stop.


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## outbackarcher

sagecreek said:


> Just make it all known, then you won't have to text the yardages.


Dave I'm going to cut your bow string next time I see you. Lol


----------



## Fire Archer

I think with outbackarcher holding the first leg now, we may see some changes. He works very hard and is serious about getting IBO to where it should be. He is a very nice guy and great shooter to boot. Not sure if he will be able to next year but tries to go out and get sponsors to donate extra money to add to the classes. That is another thing that hurts IBO is their (approx.) 20% payback. I know they allegedly pay back all the money that is put into the money pot but it is a National shoot and everyone that enters should have to pay up, one entry fee. Every local shoot I have ever been to pays back at least 50% of the pot. It costs a lot more to travel to these shoots now than it used to and the purse has shrunk tremendously. In MBO at Bedford, the winner received less than $200 and they collected about $6200 in entry fees just in MBO.


----------



## bowjoe1800

Fire Archer said:


> Pros look at their phones all the time. I agree that it is breaking a rule and should be dealt with but they still do it. Assigned shoot times and range officials with gonads will help a lot of the cheating.



WRONG!!!!!!!!!! Not in any group I have ever shot with was there a phone brought out unless the Pro was checking on a home situation. Even then he explained and asked if it was OK with the group.


----------



## PETeach

rayray8302 said:


> How does jerry mullet shoot mbo??? Ibo73503 I know for a fact jerry shoots pro in the nfaa so if he shoots pro in that organization shouldn't he have to shoot pro in the ibo??? I know he shot sat and Sunday in Louisville this past year because we watched him


Indoor spots and 3D are 2 completely different venues! You do not have to shoot pro at an IBO event because you shot pro indoor! If you shoot pro at an ASA event then you would have to shoot pro for the IBO!


----------



## Kstigall

PETeach said:


> Indoor spots and 3D are 2 completely different venues! You do not have to shoot pro at an IBO event because you shot pro indoor! If you shoot pro at an ASA event then you would have to shoot pro for the IBO!


If I shoot Pro in the NFAA I MUST shoot Pro (or Semi-Pro) in the ASA while the reverse is also true. I don't pay much attention anymore to what is going with the IBO.


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## buckhunter48

I totally agree with fire archer on that.


----------



## Fire Archer

bowjoe1800 said:


> WRONG!!!!!!!!!! Not in any group I have ever shot with was there a phone brought out unless the Pro was checking on a home situation. Even then he explained and asked if it was OK with the group.


I am not going to argue with you but I have been on same ranges with them as well and yes I have seen them on their phones. Just watch some BowJunky videos and you'll see all kinds of rules get broken by THE PROS. I have a lot of respect for the pros but they are everyday human beings just like everybody else except that they have become very successful shooting a bow. They are not Gods and not above anyone else. I was not trying to put down the pros by any means but I have seen it happen. I don't care what type of competition you are in there will be someone that will try to cheat. Whether it be on your phone on a 3D range, a rear spoiler to tall in NASCAR or a football underinflated.


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## sagecreek

It's not cheating unless you get caught.


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## Fire Archer

sagecreek said:


> It's not cheating unless you get caught.


That is a very true statement.


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## T2SHOOTER

Another entitlement attitude. You've got to love it.


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## nochance

How about its not cheating unless you can prove it? Even if a group of friends didn't get split up doesn't mean they cheated! Too much speculation.


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## Andy Pawlowicz

A group of friends that didn't get split up are violating a rule. They are required to make the range officials aware of that situation.


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## hrtlnd164

This has been beat to death every year with the IBO, plain and simple things won't change..
I don't feel that cheating runs rampant, but the format makes it a bit easier for those that want to " push " the rules. The rules are all already there, peer enforcement don't work period. Most shooters are there to have fun, it's just a big local shoot to them- therefore they won't speak up and be 'that guy' and shoot with a pissed off group for the rest of the weekend. Example: 2 minute rule was in place for years, people complained about how long they were on the ranges and slow groups..So the IBO's answer was a 3 letdown rule. Now they have two rules that don't get enforced and the pace is even slower.. Makes total sense!!
There are NO range officials in the IBO, the tent help is mostly all club members volunteering their time in return for the club's cut of your entry fee. Hell, even if there were a couple range officials, how do they monitor a course that's a 1/2 mile or more longer. The walk thru format is why officials would be useless, BUT it is why some like the IBO.
The paybacks are ridiculous in the IBO.. Why should we put up an extra 15$ for a money pot. A portion of everyone registered in any class should go to the purse- why did this become 'optional'?? Why should the host have to do the legwork and pursue outside sponsorship to pay out to the top shooters?? (Thanks for that Larry, you set the bar a bit higher and it is appreciated!!)
So it comes down to the simple conclusion that they either go to pre registered shoot times just like the Worlds and run a National type shoot...or they continue with what we have now and run their glorified club shoots and we can continue this whole conversation after each and every event..
Face it, if you are from the north you either shoot IBO or travel to shoot a national type venue..
And in my opinion Larry, without a format change on the IBO's part- there is not much more you can do to make things better. You folks have done a great job in WV and I am glad to see you with a Triple Crown shoot.


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## outbackarcher

OK I want some opinions on the shoot times. If we go to shoot times how should we propose that? We really can't do them Saturday and Sunday because there's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone done by 1. If we change the ranges yes we can do that but with the walk through layout we can't get everyone through. Do we divide the shoot over 3 days? I would also like to see some extra activities to give the shooters more things to do. I think shoot times is the answer and I think we can make that happen but what format should we propose?


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## Tony Bagnall

Just a few question re rules regarding posting photos on face book or social media whilst at a shoot.... IBO or ASA Question 1...... the group all shoot well and there are 5 arrows in the twelve and one of the group takes a pic close up ... you cannot gauge the distance. every one is standing behind the animal ... would that be ok??? 
Question 2... Some one posts a pic from the stake.... shows the animal in the distance.... an post it immediately on facebook or what ever media they use would that be ok??
question 3 some one posts messages saying how well they are doing... or texts their score as they go around... would that be ok??


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## 3D Pinwheeler

None of the above is legal. Using an electronic device. And taking a picture of a shot on the course for anyone that has not shot yet to see is an advantage.
you might be able to see its location is right beyond a stump, mound or whatever or u can see its way beyond the obstruction. 
Especially if its a cell phone picture.


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## woodsman78

very simple rule shut the dam phone off and shoot!!!!!


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## nochance

Larry,
As said before I like the 3 day option.


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## PETeach

woodsman78 said:


> very simple rule shut the dam phone off and shoot!!!!!


Very well put Clyde! Rules say no pictures on the course! Even if there is nothing you can gain from the picture because it is just a close up of the group of arrows you are still taking time and holding up the groups behind you!


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## robinofthehood

outbackarcher said:


> OK I want some opinions on the shoot times. If we go to shoot times how should we propose that? We really can't do them Saturday and Sunday because there's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone done by 1. If we change the ranges yes we can do that but with the walk through layout we can't get everyone through. Do we divide the shoot over 3 days? I would also like to see some extra activities to give the shooters more things to do. I think shoot times is the answer and I think we can make that happen but what format should we propose?


I do not agree with this "shoot time" idea at NTC level. I usually have difficulty getting the time off work. My normal regime is to arrive early Saturday morning and shoot all 40. I have Sunday morning till 1:00 if bad weather falls into play. Best left as is IMO...


----------



## outbackarcher

robinofthehood said:


> I do not agree with this "shoot time" idea at NTC level. I usually have difficulty getting the time off work. My normal regime is to arrive early Saturday morning and shoot all 40. I have Sunday morning till 1:00 if bad weather falls into play. Best left as is IMO...


We would have slots for early Sunday morning times. The national shoots need to be a 2 day event. We will have to have some shooting their first set of 20 on Friday. Maybe we divide it up for the guys just wanting to shoot a trophy round. I think we can increase the payouts and make them more organized. It has to change from come and shoot as you please.


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## darton3d

What if you offer a Friday/Saturday or Saturday/Sunday option? Twenty targets each day with assigned starting time. Or possibly 30 targets the first day and then 10 on the second? Not sure how the logistics would work, just some thoughts off the top of my head. I think there would be some shooters that won't partcipate with assigned start times, but it is something that needs to happen and in time the attendance will increase beyond current levels. There has to be a reason the Worlds is the IBO's largest shoot. But based on past history, I don't know if the IBO is willing to do the extra work to make these shoots true meaningful national tournaments.


----------



## outbackarcher

darton3d said:


> What if you offer a Friday/Saturday or Saturday/Sunday option? Twenty targets each day with assigned starting time. Or possibly 30 targets the first day and then 10 on the second? Not sure how the logistics would work, just some thoughts off the top of my head. I think there would be some shooters that won't partcipate with assigned start times, but it is something that needs to happen and in time the attendance will increase beyond current levels. There has to be a reason the Worlds is the IBO's largest shoot. But based on past history, I don't know if the IBO is willing to do the extra work to make these shoots true meaningful national tournaments.


I think they are willing and I like your idea. They will just have to get it setup in their computer to assign the different shooting days.


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## outbackarcher

The kicker will be Sunday. There would be limited slots to be able to get done in time and it still won't help the attendance of the awards.


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## irishhacker

If you are making changes, who says the shoot must end at 1 on Sunday?


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## nochance

outbackarcher said:


> There would be limited slots to be able to get done in time and it still won't help the attendance of the awards.


You can't force people to stay for the awards or vist the vendors. I always visit the vendors and usually drop some cash. I have never been to the awards. Usually a long drive for many and I'm not usually anywhere's close to winning anything  It may help to have scores updated and availble throughout the day.. If someone thinks they have a shot at the podium they may stick around.


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## outbackarcher

nochance said:


> You can't force people to stay for the awards or vist the vendors. I always visit the vendors and usually drop some cash. I have never been to the awards. Usually a long drive for many and I'm not usually anywhere's close to winning anything  It may help to have scores updated and availble throughout the day.. If someone thinks they have a shot at the podium they may stick around.


Very true. People are not going to wait around for the awards. However I do think traffic for the vendors will increase but the vendor area needs to be centralized for that to happen.


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## irishhacker

Speaking of scores.. when are they going to move into this century and ditch the paper? 
There should be digital screens showing real time scoring and placement. Heck, they could probably even throw 
some advertising on there and make some more money..


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## robinofthehood

outbackarcher said:


> We would have slots for early Sunday morning times. The national shoots need to be a 2 day event. We will have to have some shooting their first set of 20 on Friday. Maybe we divide it up for the guys just wanting to shoot a trophy round. I think we can increase the payouts and make them more organized. It has to change from come and shoot as you please.


"It has to change from come and shoot as you please".

Really. Is this something the BOD is considering...? or is this just ones individual idea...


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## outbackarcher

robinofthehood said:


> "It has to change from come and shoot as you please".
> 
> Really. Is this something the BOD is considering...? or is this just ones individual idea...


We are bumping around ideas here. I think most like the idea of shooting times and being grouped with others in your class. We may be able to leave a trophy class and that would be shoot as you please. However if we are going to get more money and make these national shoots more legit for the amateurs then changes need to be made.


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## Kstigall

robinofthehood said:


> "It has to change from come and shoot as you please".
> 
> Really. Is this something the BOD is considering...? or is this just ones individual idea...


It definitely is NOT one individuals idea! It the obvious opinion of many _former _IBO regulars as well as currently active IBO members.



outbackarcher said:


> We are bumping around ideas here. I think most like the idea of shooting times and being grouped with others in your class. We may be able to leave a trophy class and that would be shoot as you please. However if we are going to get more money and make these national shoots more legit for the amateurs then changes need to be made.


Nothing "has to change" if the choice is to let the Triple Crown Shoots continue to spiral downward. If they aren't already they will become very irrelevant when compared to _many _other archery tournaments. If it is determined that the Triple Crown should again be a series of archery tournaments that are well attended and well appreciated in the archery community then some things _do _have to change.


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## sagecreek

I think we will see some awesome improvements with the IBO this time. I think Larry will be the driving force behind it.

Even though he didn't like my idea of shooting them all known. :wink:


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## Garceau

Uggh.....

I don't know how one can compete against others when they don't pay the same entry and some aren't considered for the money - to me that's crazy.

Open shooting, no money involved - you are are ranges WXYZ (made up). You are in the "trophy class" and there will be no NTC points earned. You can arrive at the tent any time you and your group want to shoot together. There will be no assigned time or group. Feel free to cheat and pay the 45 dollar entry to win a 7 dollar trophy - we don't care. Have fun, and come back next year please.

Money classes - you will be on ranges ABCD - your stake, group, and time will be randomly selected for you. Each class will go off on the same ranges at the same time, you will shoot only with those in the same class or at least the same yardage. Will be a minimum of two people for each class per stake. We as IBO are doing everything we can to make this a worthwhile venue, to make sure everyone has the same fair and legitimate shot at earning a spot on the podium. NTC points will be in play.


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## outbackarcher

Garceau said:


> Uggh.....
> 
> I don't know how one can compete against others when they don't pay the same entry and some aren't considered for the money - to me that's crazy.
> 
> Open shooting, no money involved - you are are ranges WXYZ (made up). You are in the "trophy class" and there will be no NTC points earned. You can arrive at the tent any time you and your group want to shoot together. There will be no assigned time or group. Feel free to cheat and pay the 45 dollar entry to win a 7 dollar trophy - we don't care. Have fun, and come back next year please.
> 
> Money classes - you will be on ranges ABCD - your stake, group, and time will be randomly selected for you. Each class will go off on the same ranges at the same time, you will shoot only with those in the same class or at least the same yardage. Will be a minimum of two people for each class per stake. We as IBO are doing everything we can to make this a worthwhile venue, to make sure everyone has the same fair and legitimate shot at earning a spot on the podium. NTC points will be in play.


Lol. I think I get the point Kevin. I had to read it a couple times but I got it. All of this is in the thought phase. I have looked at how many pay to compete for money and I am brain storming here looking for feed back. I think the amateur money classes should have a $60 entry with different payback percentages than the $15 optional fee now. Do we ease the number on the shoot times by having a trophy class and run it the way it is now. The world has a trophy class for those wanting to just come and shoot. Just weighing out the numbers so it runs efficient.


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## Tony Bagnall

3D Pinwheeler said:


> None of the above is legal. Using an electronic device. And taking a picture of a shot on the course for anyone that has not shot yet to see is an advantage.
> you might be able to see its location is right beyond a stump, mound or whatever or u can see its way beyond the obstruction.
> Especially if its a cell phone picture.


Thats what i thought... yet i have seen on some peoples Facebook and Instagram the very pictures i described ..


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## bfisher

I have been reading most of the posts here with some interest and have seen some of the problems posted. I just talked with a friend of mine this morning that shot Erie. I mentioned the time it takes to shoot, ie, 3 hrs for 10 targets. He told me that it took his group 1 1/2 hours to shoot the first 3 targets. No wonder people complain and one main reason I refuse to participate in such events any more. But I would have to say that taking this amount of time is not shooting.

I don't have any answers and have no dog in the fight, but am just passing on what I was told this morning.


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## nochance

Not sure what range he was on but our range moved along in a reasonable fashion.


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## Sean243

This is going to sound pretty comlicated, but couldn't it be an option for those who are serious about being at these shoots to preregister and be assigned shoot times on the days they can shoot. You pick perhaps a three hour window or a two hour window on the day(s) you can shoot. Break it down into 10 target groups possibly.

Joe can shoot Friday afternoon and Saturday. He wants to leave Saturday after shooting. So he preregisters for 10 targets on Friday in the 3:00 - 5:00 window and 30 on Saturday in the 8:00 - 10:00 window. The IBO randomly assigned shoot times for him in those windows with random shooters who wanted to shoot those times. On Saturday since he wanted to shoot 30, he had to select a time window that started before noon to be assigned 30 targets. This works out for him because he wanted to head home that night anyhow.

Bill can't get to the shoot till late Friday night. He has to decide if he wants to shoot 30 on Saturday and 10 on Sunday or all 40 on Saturday. He wanted to do 20 and 20 but registered too late to get any of the early times on Sunday that would have allowed him to get 20 in that morning.

Shooters in classes with low participation will be shooting with people in other classes (that already goes on anyhow). If you don't decide to go to the shoot till the last minute there would be walk-in slots left open in each shooting window for those shooters. Left over slots can be taken on a first come first serve basis for those that need to change their schedule. This wouldn't be a big deal because there would be a new slot available since that shooter just vacated a shooting time. 

Now what happens with the shooters that didn't vacate that slot and no one wanted it? Nothing, if there are still 3 shooters, they go shoot. Say you have only 2 shooters show for the 9:10 shoot time, no big deal because, you pull 1 shooter (randomly of course) from the 9:20 group and send them on their way as a group of 3. The 9:20 shooters go as group of 3 as well. You ask, what about slowing things down by having several groups of 3.... You already have the times staggered anyhow (it was built in for 8 shooters already). Ok,... Only one shooter from 9:10 shows? Now you have a group of 5 (the 9:10 guy and the 9:20 guys) leaving a little early from the tent and shooting in one 20 minute window originally reserved for 8 guys. You wanted random, that's random. All shooters must show up at check-in 20 minutes before their scheduled time. This allows time for adjusting groups on the fly. Remember, we already do this at worlds.

What about people that only want to shoot 10 targets late in the day? Doesn't that create a problem because the number of people wanting to shoot only 10 would be relatively small? Well if you have a late shoot time, by regulation, that only allows time for 10 targets, so obviously you will be shooting with the other shooters that only wanted 10. 20 and 20 shooters will be grouped together for the most part. 10 target shooters will be grouped with other 10 targets shooters and with 30 target shooters on their last ten (perhaps there were two 30 target guys with two 20 target guys and now they replace the 20 target guys with one or two 10 target guys). Or maybe a ten target guy leaves after his first ten and the 30 target guys pick up a 20 target walk-on shooter for their last 20. This kind of gap filling is already going on to some extent at the tents right now.

I don't know, sounds like a logistical nightmare, and would require the full time attention of at least one IBO staffer for all of Friday and most of Saturday. The computer programming for preregistration would be complex and potentially cost prohibitive. 

Just thinking and typing here all at once. All in all, probably wouldn't work but maybe there are some ideas in all the above rambling that could be useful. I'm just trying to think of something in between the world's format and the current triple crown format. Something that busts groups like worlds but is a little less rigid. I like the flexibility of the current triple crown format and could shoot with my whole team every shoot and not one point would ever be awarded above and beyond actual points scored. Apparently, not everyone plays that way so we need a change and we need it for 2016.

Let's come up with something to take to the IBO. Let's keep talking and get this thing headed down the road of improvement.


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## robinofthehood

I can only hope that the IBO BOD makes the best decision in the interest of their organization. 
I will most likely stand behind the decision made by this dedicated group of "bowhunters".
I enjoy the "Tee times" at the IBO World Championship. Scheduling time off, lodging and travel. Seems to work well for this high level event.
I also enjoy NOT being "chained to the clock" at the Triple Crown, winter/spring competition. 
Participate, git-r-done and get back home to family.
A membership vote on this matter would be nice but unlikely.
After all, "most" of us are hardcore bowhunters, not country club target shooters...


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## Fire Archer

outbackarcher said:


> OK I want some opinions on the shoot times. If we go to shoot times how should we propose that? We really can't do them Saturday and Sunday because there's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone done by 1. If we change the ranges yes we can do that but with the walk through layout we can't get everyone through. Do we divide the shoot over 3 days? I would also like to see some extra activities to give the shooters more things to do. I think shoot times is the answer and I think we can make that happen but what format should we propose?


I think the IBO already has a mold of the format to use. The format they use at the World seems to work pretty good. Besides the trophy class ranges, how many more ranges does the World use for money shooters than a regular (so called) National event uses? Most ranges I have shot at the world are walk through layouts too so what would be the problem with this format at the National tourneys. It is still not a shotgun start but it would be 100 times better than the way it has been. I'd even be in favor of having a 5 or 10 target shootoff for the top 5 scores or so. I strongly believe you would gain a lot more shooters than you would lose.


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## outbackarcher

I think the World has at least 300 targets set. The NTC format sets 200. I personally like 20 target shoot through ranges better than 4 ten target ranges.


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## Fire Archer

outbackarcher said:


> I think the World has at least 300 targets set. The NTC format sets 200. I personally like 20 target shoot through ranges better than 4 ten target ranges.


I like the 20 target sets better myself. I still think it could be done at the National shoots with the amount of targets they are using now since there is fewer shooters than the World. At least for a few years until it catches on and you get a higher attendance. It seems like it would create a lot more effort from the IBO but would it really be that much more? They have to register everyone anyway, as it is now they just do it all at one time on location. With shoot times it would just be the scheduling of the times that would be the added work but they would have 3 weeks or so to get it done instead of a few hours. Just set strict deadlines on when registration has to be turned in. They could use pre-registration for the majority of shooters but have the schedule on site with vacant time slots (maybe a limited amount) available and assign you a shoot time on site by just filling in the open slots. I think there are ways to do this that would make the IBO more acceptable to the idea and not put a ton of work on them too.


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## Huntin Hard

It amazes me how many people want to travel and spend hundreds of dollars to shoot for a trophy. Just shoot a local shoot and it'll be cheaper for you to get the same end prize. The entry fee for classes needs to go up 15$ and everyone is in the money if you want the sport to grow and have designated shoot times. 

I mean you have 150-200 shooters in MBO for example and the winner gets $150, that's like 20th in open A and its the same class.


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## Fire Archer

Huntin Hard said:


> It amazes me how many people want to travel and spend hundreds of dollars to shoot for a trophy. Just shoot a local shoot and it'll be cheaper for you to get the same end prize. The entry fee for classes needs to go up 15$ and everyone is in the money if you want the sport to grow and have designated shoot times.
> 
> I mean you have 150-200 shooters in MBO for example and the winner gets $150, that's like 20th in open A and its the same class.


I think they were trying to draw in more shooters since travel/gasoline became more expensive but I agree with you. That is something that should have never started to begin with.


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## #1phinsfan

First, let me say that this to me is awesome that the idea of shoot times is gaining momentum. My ONLY complaint about the ibo is wait times and once it's fixed the ibo will grow. I don't know the logistics behind it but to me it seems the most simple thing to do is make it available to pre register, NOT pick your times but, pick your days. Most everyone who's serious will pre register for the luxury of NO wait. So if you traveling with a family of shooters just pre register and put down Friday Saturday and let the ibo set the times. This would almost complete eliminate the "shoot with friends" problem and speed up everything. Like I said I don't know the logistics behind it and I'm sure it's not that easy but man if this happens it will be a game changer and I can't wait!


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## 3D Pinwheeler

Do them just like the Worlds. Sunday is a rain day. No shoot off. Practice ranges and vendors open Thursday. Everyone home Saturday night or Sunday with no rain. Short circle 20 target sets so the end of course comes out at the same area you started. No marathon through the woods typical IBO target setups. 20 each day.


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## rhyno_071

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Do them just like the Worlds. Sunday is a rain day. No shoot off. Practice ranges and vendors open Thursday. Everyone home Saturday night or Sunday with no rain. Short circle 20 target sets so the end of course comes out at the same area you started. No marathon through the woods typical IBO target setups. 20 each day.


This sounds good, especially the target set up.


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## wvbowhunter06

What happens to is guys who scrap Pennies to go an shoot all 40 in one day to save on motels and food


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## ccccr

the idea of peer grouping after the first leg sounds good to me....


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## blackheel

Just a question about shoot times.....are they managed at other IBO shoots where they might be used better than at the Indoor Worlds? This past January, I didn't get on the range until 1.5 hrs after my scheduled shoot time and I showed up early like the directions said.


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## Garceau

wvbowhunter06 said:


> What happens to is guys who scrap Pennies to go an shoot all 40 in one day to save on motels and food


Under the way I would personally plan it 

You could do that if you shot the mom competitive round.


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## bhtr3d

Garceau said:


> Under the way I would personally plan it
> 
> You could do that if you shot the mom competitive round.


What's the mom competitive round??? Lol


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## Garceau

Garceau said:


> Under the way I would personally plan it
> 
> You could do that if you shot the mom competitive round.


Lol....non competition round... As in no money


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## wvbowhunter06

That would be pointless I want to shoot all 40 in a day an still compete for money I finish near top of my class on consistent bases. 
I agree with times but shoot all 40 in a day has to be in there somewhere


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## Garceau

Honestly I don't see it the same way. If people are competing for money they should be shooting the same ranges at the same time. In so far as possible. Allowing some v to shoot it at different days or times will not keeping everything on an even playing field.

Secondly I'd work on the payout a bunch. So if you finish near the top it would actually be worth it. 

These are just my views and some care as I think the Ibo is lacking.

2 to 4 guys in a hotel room....an extra 20 bucks a trip plus an extra couple meals.


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## tackscall

The U.S. Open makes the leaders tee off last and play in much tougher conditions than the early tee times, you don't hear them complaining. Except for Sergio but he's a tool


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## Fire Archer

Garceau said:


> Honestly I don't see it the same way. If people are competing for money they should be shooting the same ranges at the same time. In so far as possible. Allowing some v to shoot it at different days or times will not keeping everything on an even playing field.
> 
> Secondly I'd work on the payout a bunch. So if you finish near the top it would actually be worth it.
> 
> These are just my views and some care as I think the Ibo is lacking.
> 
> 2 to 4 guys in a hotel room....an extra 20 bucks a trip plus an extra couple meals.


I agree. You will never be able to please everyone but something has to change. I know of probably 20 or more guys, including myself, that have quit shooting IBO tourneys just in the last couple of years because of the way they are ran. I also know of guys that shot in one of them and said that was enough for them. You don't go to a major fishing tournament and fish when you want to. You fish when they tell you too. You aren't allowed to go out and catch double your limit because you don't want to be there 2 days.


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## outbackarcher

OK guys I started a new thread with a poll on the subject of tee times. Let's use it for the discussion.


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## boilerfarmer12

I don't see the big deal about spending the money on hotels. It's part of the game. If u wanna compete on a national level you have to pay to play. No other national event allows you to complete everything in one day so u can leave. Indoor nationals for example, shoot one round on Saturday and one round on Sunday. No exceptions unless u drop out. Do kids baseball tourneys let u play extra games so u can go home early?
I understand that some people can't afford to stay in hotels and at some point that may be me. But, like I said that is part of competing on a national level. It's a national contest not some local shoot where you can basically do what u want.


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## field14

Yes, but that kind of money...to stay over night after shooting only 20 shots? It is expensive enough to do a "one nighter" to shoot 40 shots! Of course, the time element to get 20 shots done in one day is awfully long, too. Way more time spent standing around jacking your jaws than shooting your bow.
The last IBO I shot took our group of 4 people over 4 HOURS to shoot our last 10 shots! Time limits were not being enforced, and certainly not enforced with "peer group" enforcement! That was the last IBO I went to, and it sounds as if things haven't changed much.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## wvbowhunter06

I don't have anyone in my area to go to split rooms with or it wouldn't be a problem I do it all myself so things get tough. Some of us are not privelaged to have a good job so we do what we do to compete. However win a national an get 200 bucks doesn't help anything either.


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## boilerfarmer12

field14 said:


> Yes, but that kind of money...to stay over night after shooting only 20 shots? It is expensive enough to do a "one nighter" to shoot 40 shots! Of course, the time element to get 20 shots done in one day is awfully long, too. Way more time spent standing around jacking your jaws than shooting your bow.
> The last IBO I shot took our group of 4 people over 4 HOURS to shoot our last 10 shots! Time limits were not being enforced, and certainly not enforced with "peer group" enforcement! That was the last IBO I went to, and it sounds as if things haven't changed much.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Dont you only shoot 30 arrows that count in day in Vegas? guarantee vegas is more expensive.

I agree that more enforcement needs to be made on shooting times. I think the majority of the problem though is on the MBO and MBR ranges. I have never spent more than ~3 hours to shoot 20 targets at an IBO event on the hunter ranges.


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## boilerfarmer12

wvbowhunter06 said:


> I don't have anyone in my area to go to split rooms with or it wouldn't be a problem I do it all myself so things get tough. Some of us are not privelaged to have a good job so we do what we do to compete. However win a national an get 200 bucks doesn't help anything either.


I can understand that. One of the guys I travel with lives an hour away. I know there are quite a few WVs who shoot IBO. anyway you could hook up with them and travel?


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## Fire Archer

boilerfarmer12 said:


> Dont you only shoot 30 arrows that count in day in Vegas? guarantee vegas is more expensive.
> 
> I agree that more enforcement needs to be made on shooting times. I think the majority of the problem though is on the MBO and MBR ranges. I have never spent more than ~3 hours to shoot 20 targets at an IBO event on the hunter ranges.


I shot HC and waited over 3 hrs to shoot at Erie one year and was on target 1.



wvbowhunter06 said:


> I don't have anyone in my area to go to split rooms with or it wouldn't be a problem I do it all myself so things get tough. Some of us are not privelaged to have a good job so we do what we do to compete. However win a national an get 200 bucks doesn't help anything either.


The only way you'll ever get any money back into IBO though is to make it more fair and bring back shooters. I do understand that money gets tight and I have done odd jobs myself to fund my archery addiction. But something has to change or they may fold in near future and there will be nothing in our area. Then you may have to travel 12-16 hours to shoot a 3D event compared to 3-5 hours.


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## T&A

Bottom line is these shoots are supposed to be national level tournaments they should be run like one we may loose a few shooters due to a little extra expense but if things are really that tight maybe they shouldn't be there any ways without some kind of organization there will never be no real sponsors who will ever put any real money into 3d shooting like they do in other archery events it's time to change and make the ibo a real deal if so people and money will come


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## acesbettor

robinofthehood said:


> 2015 IBO rules: IV (F) 4 (e)
> *All forms of electronic communication are prohibited *while on the shooting range unless communication is required for an emergency. Cell phones and other devices must be silenced before entering the range.
> 
> So the way I see it, if you have to communicate with family, check approaching foul weather. Do it before you get on the "RANGE".
> 
> Key words here:
> 
> "Prohibited" means PROHIBITED
> "Emergency" means EMERGENCY
> "Silenced" means SILENCED
> 
> If you are caught with a cell phone or electronic communication device in your hands while "on the range" and it is not an "emergency", you are in violation of this "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" rule and you should be DQ'd. period...:whip2:


Don't you think if they just said "All forms of electronic devices are prohibited" instead of what I put in bold would make the rule a little more clear?

Or all communication *devices*

I know when I when I first started shooting IBO i read that rule and thought as long as I wasn't "communicating" with it, I was ok. I would use my scoring app to log scores when shooting local 3d's and thought that would be fine shooting IBO.


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## buckhunter48

National Shoot and out of 150 shooters in the MBO class and 1st place is $180 thats a joke like the one guy said you win half of that at a local tournament if 50 guys shot money thats almost $2900 dollars at $57 a pop.


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## RickT

Only $15 of that entry fee goes to the money pot to be paid out. I think anyone that enters a class that pays money should be required to pay the extra $15.


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## T&A

There should be no choice in if you pay to be in the money or not it should already be part of your entry fee everybody should have to pay or not shoot this is a national event or at least labeled as one


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## glennx

T&A said:


> There should be no choice in if you pay to be in the money or not it should already be part of your entry fee everybody should have to pay or not shoot this is a national event or at least labeled as one


That's the way it was in the past.


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## buckhunter48

ok so if $15 goes for money say 100 guys pay thats $1500 so $180 for 1st place come on!!!!!!!


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## RickT

buckhunter48 said:


> ok so if $15 goes for money say 100 guys pay thats $1500 so $180 for 1st place come on!!!!!!!


 $180 for 1st, $990 for 10 places. $990/$15= 66 shooters paid to shoot for money. Less than half of the class, a class designated as a money class. The IBO needs to make some major changes in their National Tournaments!


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## ibo73503

I am the guy that won that whopping $180 in Erie, and I agree it's a joke. I got more for finishing 2nd at the spring national. Mind you, that doesn't include the money that was added to some of the classes. I was told that 70 shooters paid to be in for the money. The ibo needs to really rethink their ways before they run off all of the shooters. I am seriously considering not even shooting the ibo next year. As it stands WV is my longest drive at 7 hrs, the closest asa is 8 hours away, but I may switch next year. Honestly, if I were not on a team sitting in a pretty good spot, I wouldn't even go to Marengo. I lost way to much money to win erie, I don't know if I could afford another win in the ibo(if I were to win). Factor in fuel, hotel, food, and entry fees, the winner of a money class should atleast be able to break even. But that is just my opinion.


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## buckhunter48

First off congrats on the win i agree with you 100% on that even here i won our state ibo championship and got just under half of that with 40 shooters


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## Huntin Hard

Congrats on your win. I don't blame you one bit for switching to ASA if you do. My closest one is 7 hours and that was KY. The rest are 10-14 hours away excluding TX because that's way to far for me.


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## stoz

ibo73503 said:


> I am the guy that won that whopping $180 in Erie, and I agree it's a joke. I got more for finishing 2nd at the spring national. Mind you, that doesn't include the money that was added to some of the classes. I was told that 70 shooters paid to be in for the money. The ibo needs to really rethink their ways before they run off all of the shooters. I am seriously considering not even shooting the ibo next year. As it stands WV is my longest drive at 7 hrs, the closest asa is 8 hours away, but I may switch next year. Honestly, if I were not on a team sitting in a pretty good spot, I wouldn't even go to Marengo. I lost way to much money to win erie, I don't know if I could afford another win in the ibo(if I were to win). Factor in fuel, hotel, food, and entry fees, the winner of a money class should atleast be able to break even. But that is just my opinion.


congrats on erie! I would encourage you to go spm or pro hunter . You obviously are good enough to make the step and if you pick the right bow company you can get good payouts. I took home close to 2000 for erie win. Good luck on what ever you do


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## Kstigall

ibo73503 said:


> I am the guy that won that whopping $180 in Erie, and I agree it's a joke. I got more for finishing 2nd at the spring national. Mind you, that doesn't include the money that was added to some of the classes. I was told that 70 shooters paid to be in for the money. The ibo needs to really rethink their ways before they run off all of the shooters. I am seriously considering not even shooting the ibo next year. As it stands WV is my longest drive at 7 hrs, the closest asa is 8 hours away, but I may switch next year. Honestly, if I were not on a team sitting in a pretty good spot, I wouldn't even go to Marengo. I lost way to much money to win erie, I don't know if I could afford another win in the ibo(if I were to win). Factor in fuel, hotel, food, and entry fees, the winner of a money class should atleast be able to break even. But that is just my opinion.


The closest is 8 hours for me as well. It looks like the only one I'll be missing was the Texas shoot which is way too far. I've never shot more than 3 in any one year and this year I wasn't planning on shooting so many but what the hell. There are a total of 7 ASA tournaments so you have more opportunities to play.

When I really got into shooting 3D I really thought I'd shoot mostly IBO but that didn't work out. There are also a couple extra games to play at ASA tournaments. You can play the SIMS course and the Pro/Am team shoot.

Two more hours of driving doesn't add a great amount to my expenses if I am not rolling alone.

ASA Kentucky
Open B, 130 archers, paid out 25 places, $4,514 total pay out, 1st place $559
Open A, 95 archers, paid out 19 places, $3682 paid out, 1st place $578, 2nd $358, 3rd $339

Since you won in MBO in ASA Open A is probably where you would land. Some companies pay contingency to Open A winners. I saw where PSE paid a guy $500 for a win but I don't know that that is standard. Unless you win contingency money or have riding partners I don't see how anyone can really make any money. If you can keep your expenses to maybe $350 a trip a good archer could at the least break even but it depends on the class, actual expenses and actual winnings. Carbon Express pays a little contingency to all adult non-novice classes except *Senior Known*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Huntin Hard

I know elite pays 1000$,500$, and 250$ in open A for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd so that's a good thing too if you shoot elite.


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## ibo73503

Well, I am all for having a move out rule in the Ibo, and have already decided that I will shoot semi next year no matter which organization that I shoot in. I don't really expect to make money at shooting, but when I got more for 2nd at the spring national than I get for winning a triple crown event something is not right. I shoot a prime bow and love it, I won't switch just for contingency money, I shoot them well.


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## nochance

ibo73503 said:


> Well, I am all for having a move out rule in the Ibo, and have already decided that I will shoot semi next year no matter which organization that I shoot in. I don't really expect to make money at shooting, but when I got more for 2nd at the spring national than I get for winning a triple crown event something is not right. I shoot a prime bow and love it, I won't switch just for contingency money, I shoot them well.


Good for you! I think to many people switch bows for all the wrong reason's. If it works stay with it!


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## Garceau

Prime pays pretty good contingency in ASA


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## Mark1976

WHAT??? Did someone say there is cheating going on in the IBO??? Well I don't believe it!!!lol


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## schmel_me

We can win more at a local tourney than a national ibo tournament wow did not know that!???


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## IBOHunt3D

The IBO needs to recognize that it is sanctioning a NATIONAL ARCHERY COMPETITION. There need to be standardized rules for every tournament that need to be enforced. These needn't be difficult. For example. The tournament will be held on Saturday and Sunday. You will be assigned a shooting time and shooting group. You will shoot 20 targets each day. The entry fee is whatever it is and everyone shoots for money. End of discussion. Granted, that will be an inconvenience for some, and initially participation may go down. But if the IBO is portraying itself as a serious competitive organization, it will need to become just that. If you look at ALL other governing bodies in ALL other sports, they have rigid guidelines for competitions and stick to them. The PGA for golf, for example, doesn't care if you can only play on Friday due to other considerations. Their tournaments run from Thursday to Sunday. You must at least play Thursday and Friday. Those are the rules. Now, the PGA deals with the golf elite, so its a bit different than tournament archery. But, the logic is the same. Hopefully the BOD of the IBO will see that their organization, or lack thereof, is costing their events participants and that equates to money. Organize the NTC events like the World Championship event. If you want a fun shoot, cool. I get that. There are plenty of local fun events to shoot. But a NATIONAL TOURNAMENT should be just that. Should it be fun? Of course. But it should also be viewed as and treated as a serious competitive event, by event organizers, sanctioning bodies, and participants. If Joe Cool is made that he can't shoot in Billy Bob's group, too bad. Tiger Woods doesn't like playing with Phil Mickelson, but if they are grouped together by the PGA, too bad so sad, they play together. Its called getting serious, and it needs to happen.


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