# OAA Pioneer shoot



## Bigjono

Ok, first off I want to say thank you to Pioneer for laying on the shoot. I know what a tough job it is for very little reward. I also want to say it was good to meet up with some old friends and say hi to new ones like Eric. 
Now comes the low down. First off, go to sign in and guess what, no RU class. Last I checked it was an official OAA class and this was a sanctioned OAA shoot yet no sign in sheet for us. Next the course itself. To say it was easy was an understatement. Stevie Wonder could have put a decent score in from the white stakes. We are unsighted shooters guys, not dribbling morons. Pegs at 7yds on a pronghorn, 8yds on a bear really????? It's an insult. I shot a big score but it means nothing when it's from kiddie pegs.
More serious however was course safety. In my opinion the shoot should have been stopped, it was an unsafe course. Target 30 had an overshoot lane going directly into numbers 31, and 32. I stood on the peg watching groups walking right behind the target, no more than 30yds away. Guys were scared to shoot incase of an accident. Target 38 was as bad, standing at full draw and seeing a child walk past up beyond the target is not good. Accidents happen but this was bad course laying. We had the same issue last year with target 30 and complained about then but nothing was changed for this shoot. If someone gets hurt it impacts all of us and I would have expected better from a sanctioned OAA event.


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## Stash

Please leave the OAA out of this. It's is a "sanctioned" shoot, not a "sponsored" shoot. Sanctioned shoots are run by clubs and the running of these shoots is in no way the responsibility of the OAA except the club being a member of the OAA and hence covered by insurance. The OAA only organizes the bids and dates for Triple Crown events, and has nothing to do with the way the club runs the event. 



> G. *Sanctioned Events*:
> A "sanctioned event" is any archery event or activity organized by a Club or an individual who is a member of the O.A.A. and includes, without limitation, any competitions, practices, training, receptions and ancillary activities.
> 
> H. *Ontario Triple Crown (sanctioned event)*


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## Bigjono

So you're saying that the OAA has no input into the courses for the provincial champs or Triple Crown, really, is that true?


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## Bigjono

Here is a video we took from one of the pegs. You can clearly see the people moving behind the target.



https://vimeo.com/133924980


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## shakyshot

Here's an idea. Everyone that "knows" what's better and "how it should" be done.....step up and do it. Pioneer has not had a shoot like the TC in 15 or so years I Believe. How about constructive criticism. Not keyboard *****ing ? Yes things could have gone better. But 3D in Ontario is a joke anymore. I think it's time for everyone on here that "has all the great ideas" to **** or get off the pot. Personally. I really don't care for 3D in the province anymore because of a vast majority of people that hide behind there computers and *****. Yes. They still show at shoots but only so they can run home to there keyboards it seems. Like I said. Step up. Or shut up. This message was brought to you by. Just ones guys thoughts. And go!!


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## Bigjono

Sorry Shawn but these points were raised at the shoot, and the last shoot, THE COURSE WAS UNSAFE, I can't say it clearer. I stood on a peg and pointed out to one of the course layers that people were behind the target he agreed and said they'd look at it for the next shoot. The shoot should have been stopped and the course re arranged to ale it safe. Crap targets and missing classes are one thing, I can live with that but course safety is paramount.


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## Stash

Bigjono said:


> So you're saying that the OAA has no input into the courses for the provincial champs or Triple Crown, really, is that true?


Provincial champs, yes, lots of input because it's a "sponsored" shoot. Triple Crown, no input because these are "sanctioned" shoots. 


> The shoot should have been stopped and the course re arranged to ale it safe.


If that was the case, the Club officials had the responsibility to do that. Do you seriously expect that the OAA supply someone to police every tournament, every practice session, every archery activity carried out by every OAA club or member?

Again, the Triple Crown is NOT an OAA sponsored event, and the OAA has no business getting involved in how the events are run, unless it is asked, in which every practical effort would be made to offer assistance.

I have no issue with your complaints about the course, but address them towards the host club, not the OAA.


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## JAGG1

In my opinion “constructive” criticism and/or feedback to appropriate individuals, is much more effective than general whining. Pioneer seems to have gotten plenty of the former this afternoon, in a polite and civilized manner. Their response seemed to indicate that the feedback was more than appreciated and that further improvements depend on that input. 
As Shakyshot alluded to, Pioneer is trying to raise itself from the dust to offer another venue for us to benefit from. Trashing them does no one any good.
It seems the responsible and conscientious archers that attended were able to work through the layout flaws without any consequences, other than a little lost time. That speaks volumes about most that attended!


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## Bigjono

And as I said, I appreciate the effort from the guys at Pioneer, it's a great club with great grounds but I raised these issues today at the shoot and last year at their 3D shoot too. I accept that the OAA take no active role in their TC events but for a shoot that was always going to get a good turnout, this could have been a disaster and if raising it here makes clubs look a bit closer at their own set ups then I'm ok with being called a whiner.


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## goldenarrow1974

My opinion, yes..absolutely the course was unsafe..i have noticed the same issues at the lion a and few more targets..the distances was really not challenging at all but no matter what someone on 20 yd will make a lousy shot either..so good shots will win anyways. The targets was in the bad shape but this is not their fault.. the OAA SHOULD have a "target bank" what is carried 40 targets and clubs like pioneer can rent out or hand out for the event so they can produce a quality 3d tournament in Ontario. ..or the another option need a help from the another club. Guys! We can bashing each other and tell them all day long what is wrong, and they never will make another tournament ...or we can help out each other.
.with advise manpower or with equipment.. just need to ask... I know how hard to build a tournament course to set up the full course I do in York...specially when is no help.. good time will come back...just need to practice.


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## goldenarrow1974

My opinion for a new format 3D organizations need to replace the Oaa in Ontario.. what we have now that's not for 3d shooters just for paper.


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## Stash

Wasn't there some discussion last year from a fellow over in the Belleville or Trenton area who was going to do that? Whatever happened to that?

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2367368

And no, this isn't a troll and I'm not being "condescending". Just wondering if there's been any progress. Seems that a lot of people thought he had some good ideas.


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## shakyshot

Bottom line. Someone dropped the ball. Move on. Course layout needs to be checked and double checked. At Elmira(little club) we have 5 of us that go and check things out. Make sure it's safe. Will be challenging yet youngster friendly at the same time. What's so hard about that. A club should never "assume" one gu knows how to do it all. That's the mistake


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## F/F 3Der

Stash said:


> Wasn't there some discussion last year from a fellow over in the Belleville or Trenton area who was going to do that? Whatever happened to that?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2367368
> 
> And no, this isn't a troll and I'm not being "condescending". Just wondering if there's been any progress. Seems that a lot of people thought he had some good ideas.


Yes this is still happening, it is on facebook ONT 3D. I was told yesterday that a web site will be coming in the near future.


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## stjoebowhunter

Hey Shakyshot for someone who says they don't shoot 3d anymore cause of all the *****ing and whining that goes on you do your share on here pretty well!!


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## Stash

F/F 3Der said:


> Yes this is still happening, it is on facebook ONT 3D. I was told yesterday that a web site will be coming in the near future.


Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of that group.


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## Topper1018

Stash said:


> Wasn't there some discussion last year from a fellow over in the Belleville or Trenton area who was going to do that? Whatever happened to that?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showt...mised it and it WILL be delivered. Stay tuned


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## Stash

Yeah, I remember you. Good that you're doing this - it's what 3D people seem to want.

I seriously hadn't heard of the ONT3D page - I follow AT and the OAA Facebook, but hadn't heard any mention of your setup, so I just didn't know about it. I'll have a good look at it first chance I get.


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## XTRMN8R

I am dumfounded at the fact that no one can take ownership of the event in question. The oaa is willing to put its brand on this event but now abdicates any and all responsibility.
the term sanctioned means to authorize, approve or accept. none of those things were actually completed in a sufficient manner.
all this talk about Bashing is a way to deflect responsibility. The question and more so the answer is that both the tournament director of the club and the authority at the OAA who ultimately authorizes all actions of the oaa bare the responsibility.
again I reiterate . If the club and the sanctioning body are not competent enough, are under funded, do not have the manpower or for any other reason can not run a Safe event, please stop running tournaments.!!

There are no archers in Ontario that want to see the oaa or any event fail, certainly not ones like myself that have invested time and money attending events. This conversation is also not about personal attacks,agendas or bashing or otherwise. It is about getting things done correctly and responsibly and not deflection by pointing the finger at the guy beside but pointing at ones self and taking ownership.

this would be a different post if and oaa member at that event was shot or hit by lightning and killed. An instance such as that would change the face of all archery in Ontario...do you think the OAA or the club crying poor us, we haven't run a shoot in years would satisfy the family or the insurance company of the victim.

so please everyone get over their Feelings and either get on with the job of making Absolutely 100% sure this never happens again of get the hell out of running archery tournaments


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## Topper1018

Amen to that. The shout should be for ACCOUNTABILITY. I could not imagine another sporting organization haveing the outright gall to not take responsibility for the proceedings at their SANCTIONED event. There by the definition so it is in the dictionary, the word sanction. I think we all afford the opportunity here for any rep of the governing body to stand tall and acknowledge responsibility in some way, so as to regain some of the respect for the organization that has been lost.


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## stjoebowhunter

Exactly someone step up and take ownership for the mistakes that were made! There could have been a lot more then feelings hurt this weekend.


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## Stash

The definition of what is a "sanctioned" OAA archery event is quoted in my post #2 above. It's not a dictionary definition, it's a legalese definition which delineates which archery activities are covered by the OAA's liability insurance policy for members and clubs. The OAA's responsibility is limited to providing liability insurance coverage to OAA members and clubs who are involved in _*legal*_ archery activities.

The club that hosts an event, whether an OAA member club (therefore a sanctioned event) or not, has the responsibility for safety. Clubs are more than welcome to ask the OAA for assistance, but regardless of how people feel about it, it is NOT and cannot be the OAA's responsibility to check over every, or any, club's 3D course unless it is a _*sponsored*_ event. You cannot seriously expect a representative of the OAA to visit every club, every backyard, every school gym, every basement, every forest, every field where an OAA member chooses to shoot in order to examine the safety of the place, and to police the actual archery activity.

The only thing the OAA can do is after the fact, and that would be to cancel membership (and therefore insurance coverage and sanction) or to refuse to award any future sponsored or promoted OAA event to that club until such time as they prove they are in compliance with safety guidelines.


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## stjoebowhunter

I don't expect a OAA rep to visit every club but when its an Ontario Triple Crown shoot I expect there to be an OAA rep there and make sure its run properly and safely!


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## XTRMN8R

stash 
I believe you to be a critical thinker so I am sure that you can see that as a triple crown event and as a host club where both OAA executive and club executive are one in the same it is reasonable to believe that both parties, the oaa and the club, would be jointly responsible.
The fact that you dictate oaa legalese shows that the oaa has to some extent a responsibility to oversee how events are run.
That partnership was formed when the club agreed to host under the banner of the oaa a sanctioned event and the oaa agreed on that partnership.

this event sets a precedence. Clubs should now be warned that the oaa claims no responsibility for any of the actions taken by a club, its members, the oaa or oaa members while participating at any sanctioned event.

To the archers out there the oaa has basically said Sorry your on your own, buyer beware....and they had no trouble taking your money at the same time.


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## DssBB

Stash, 
No one is asking the OAA to visit every club, every backyard, every school gym, every basement ,every forest , every field where an OAA member chooses to shoot as you clearly seem to think.
When the OAA holds the sanctioned Triple Crown events, consisting of 3 shoots and is certainly involved in not only the selection process of 3 hosting clubs, supplying targets to the provincial leg of the 3 shoots (although pioneer could have certainly used them), maintaining the total scores of the archers from all 3 shoots, supplying and handing out the final awards from the shoots (which the clubs pay for) along with collecting any additional monies from the shoots, then the OAA is involved...period.....and must be accountable for what takes places and issues that arise during the 3 tournaments. Although the OAA does not choose to put a great deal of effort, in promoting 3D tournaments, compared to Fita or Field events, they are still collecting membership dues, providing liability insurance to the clubs and members, and are therefore responsible. 
If these issues had taken place at a non-sanctioned OAA event....then it's the hosting clubs sole responsibility for safety and decisions on how the tournament is ran. 
The OAA really needs to give their heads a shake and you as well Stash , and finally realize that the majority of archers in Ontario are 3D archers and put a substantial portion of their hard earned money into not only supporting the OAA, the OAA Triple Crown events and keeping this sport alive. Every time we have a legitimate problem and air the issues on AT, you and a select few seem to jump right in and label us as whiners and trouble makers. Maybe you should step up to the plate and attend the 3rd leg of the Triple Crown and see just what 3D is all about and listen to the OAA members.


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## Stash

You are not following along closely enough.

The OAA does not host or run the Triple Crown. Well, the second and third legs, anyways - the first is an OAA sponsored event so the OAA does do more for that one. All the OAA does and is responsible for is set the dates so they fit in among other major events, and provide a method for the venues to be selected by the membership so clubs don't end up fighting among themselves to decide who will host every year. Some volunteer with the OAA also keeps score and organizes the awards for the winners, since it is more convenient having this centralized rather than having 3 separate clubs coordinate it.

THIS IS THE WAY THE MEMBERSHIP WANTED IT when the Triple Crown was set up, so this is the way the rules are.

I'm not disputing that 3D in Ontario isn't working as well as it should. I'm just saying that there is way too much use of the expression "The OAA should..." by people who don't clearly understand what the OAA really is, what its mandate is, what its limitations are, and who actually does all the work people ask of it.


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## DssBB

Let me get this straight....The OAA only assists in 1 of the 3 legs of the Triple Crown events...nothing more. The bidding for hosting clubs which run the Triple Crown events does not take place at the OAA's AGM. The OAA only collects entrance fees at the 1 Triple Crown event it assists or helps host. The OAA is responsible for the dates set of the Triple Crown events so they fit in among other major events (screwed up last year having the 3rd leg and the field championship on the same day)....It helps organize the awards for the winners which the 3 hosting clubs pay for.
If the OAA only puts forth 1/3 the effort for the Triple Crown....then they should still be 1/3 responsible and 1/3 accountable...does that pretty much sum it up and make you happy.

What does or what Should the OAA do for it's members or what does our membership fee and additional fee for the Triple Crown get us? Just so we all are clear what we are paying for.


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## Stash

We're not talking about the OAA 3D Championships, for which the OAA is responsible, as it's a sponsored shoot. The other 2 Triple Crown events - no, I don't see the OAA as being accountable for 1/3, or ANY of the safety issues as a consequence of setting the dates (roughly), taking a vote and keeping score. 

No more than, say, the Ontario Ministry of Transport is responsible for some drunk driving the wrong way down the 401, based on the fact they sanctioned his right to drive by issuing him a license.

Argue all you want, but the rules are there in black and white, and that's the way things are.


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## DssBB

No one is arguing. We are just trying to find out who is or partially responsible and accountable for the 3 legs of the Triple Crown events when OAA members pay additional fees above their OAA membership fee to participate in the 3 legs of the OAA Triple Crown events. Where does this extra fee members pay to participate in the Triple Crown go? Due to the OAA assisting or being available to assist any of the 3 hosting clubs with the Triple Crown events, what black and white rules or guidelines are therefore followed at the 3 tournaments and who established the rules?

As too the drunk driver driving the wrong way on the 401.....I think he is 100% responsible and accountable for the major traffic congestion we all faced traveling eastbound after the tournament....Thanks for the heads up as I was going to write a letter to the Ontario Ministry of Transport.


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## Topper1018

Stash said:


> We're not talking about the OAA 3D Championships, for which the OAA is responsible, as it's a sponsored shoot. The other 2 Triple Crown events - no, I don't see the OAA as being accountable for 1/3, or ANY of the safety issues as a consequence of setting the dates (roughly), taking a vote and keeping score.
> 
> No more than, say, the Ontario Ministry of Transport is responsible for some drunk driving the wrong way down the 401, based on the fact they sanctioned his right to drive by issuing him a license.
> 
> Argue all you want, but the rules are there in black and white, and that's the way things are.


Unfortunately this situation is more like police haveing pulled over said drunk driver after haveing been informed by other motorists, then after inspection waveing him on with a "have a nice day."
I agree with you Stash, that IS the way things ARE. Maybe its time we just let alone the stone soldiers standing guard the gate to the burning kingdom. 
Rather a shame, but that is the way things are.


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## Stash

Getting back on topic - what has been learned here about course safety?

3rd Leg of the Triple Crown will be at Flying Feathers in late August. Now, this is a club with a great track record and lots of experience running shoots, including OAA sponsored shoots. 

Is it necessary for a rep from the OAA travel up there and inspect the course? (Who, by the way?) Should the OAA ask the club if it wants them to come and inspect their course, or should they just inform the club they will be there? Or show up unannounced? By what right would an OAA rep be able to force the club to make changes to their course should the rep feel it's necessary? What happens if the rep sees an issue but the club doesn't agree?



> Unfortunately this situation is more like police haveing pulled over said drunk driver after haveing been informed by other motorists, then after inspection waveing him on with a "have a nice day."


I'm thinking it's more like the police having pulled over said drunk driver, then having all the other motorists complaining on social media that it's the MOT's (and police's) job to get in the car with every other driver on the road and preventing them from doing the same thing.


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## ontario3-d'r

There seems to really some MAJOR misconceptions about the Triple Crown. The Triple Crown IS NOT AN EVENT! It is the culmination of three events, period. The Pioneer Sportsman club put on a 3D shoot that was AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. Not just triple Crown shooters. The results are just used towards the triple crown end results. Just like the third leg coming up. It is a Flying Feathers tournament, with flying feathers awards, Open to anyone. The results are used for the triple crown. The reason that it is done this way is very simple. If the triple crown is only available to triple crown shooters, no club is going to host the third leg. You will not get a club to host an event with only 35-50 shooters expected. There is the same amount of work required by the club to host a 35 person tournament or a 100 person tournament.


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## CaptainT

DssBB said:


> We are just trying to find out who is or partially responsible and accountable for the 3 legs of the Triple Crown events when OAA members pay additional fees above their OAA membership fee to participate in the 3 legs of the OAA Triple Crown events. Where does this extra fee members pay to participate in the Triple Crown go?


My information is a few years old at this point but I'm pretty sure it is still accurate. There is no extra fee to have your score entered into the Ontario Triple Crown. You register for the 3 shoots that scores are used from. 

For Leg 1 [Ontario 3D Championship] the OAA and the club share responsibility for the shoot at the OAA is the title sponsor of the event. A small portion of the registration fee goes to the OAA while the majority goes to the host club. This event is generally run at a loss to the OAA.

For Leg 2 & 3 the club is responsible. The OAA does not collect a fee from these shoots with the exception of a share of the plaque costs. Any fees an archer pays at these events goes to the club, just like any other club tournament.


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## Bigjono

I know I was asked to delete this post but I'm glad I politely declined, some good info is coming on it now. This whole culture of accusing people of "bashing" every time we criticize something is pure deflection sorry. As paying members of the OAA, I think we are entitled to offer criticism of an OAA championship event if it goes as wrong as this one did. It's not personal it's just stating facts of what went bad at a shoot.
Honestly, I think the vast majority of 3D shooters here really believe that the OAA really doesn't do anything for their branch of the sport. I have no clue if that's true or not but that's the feedback I get. I think the OAA needs to get tougher on it's member clubs. If you are a member and want your shoot in the book, you will follow OAA rules for that shoot. Offer all classes, have correct pegs, check bows are correct, have range officers, stick to correct yardages etc. The rules are there, they just need enforcing by a strong leadership. If clubs don't comply they don't get membership, simple. It's a matter of the club supporting the OAA and the OAA supporting the clubs in return.


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## Topper1018

Hey Jon that sounds an awful lot like ONT3Ds club support system...internal spies?!? Lol


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## Cdn-3d

Bigjono said:


> I know I was asked to delete this post but I'm glad I politely declined, some good info is coming on it now. This whole culture of accusing people of "bashing" every time we criticize something is pure deflection sorry. As paying members of the OAA, I think we are entitled to offer criticism of an OAA championship event if it goes as wrong as this one did. It's not personal it's just stating facts of what went bad at a shoot.
> Honestly, I think the vast majority of 3D shooters here really believe that the OAA really doesn't do anything for their branch of the sport. I have no clue if that's true or not but that's the feedback I get. I think the OAA needs to get tougher on it's member clubs. If you are a member and want your shoot in the book, you will follow OAA rules for that shoot. Offer all classes, have correct pegs, check bows are correct, have range officers, stick to correct yardages etc. The rules are there, they just need enforcing by a strong leadership. If clubs don't comply they don't get membership, simple. It's a matter of the club supporting the OAA and the OAA supporting the clubs in return.


Have range officers!.........there ya go


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## peregrine82

This is not a criticism, rather a statement. There is a competing organization coming to Ontario in 2016, ONT3D. 3D archers will vote with their feet and dollars and eventually the organization that looks after the interests of the 3D shooters of this Province best will emerge as the dominant organization.

Competition is always good as it offers the consumer choices and makes the competitors work for the consumers cash.


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## rockin_johny

Thanks Stash...now we know the OAA really does nothing.


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## Stash

Congratulations, rockin johny, you figured it out. The OAA does nothing, and has been doing nothing since 1927.


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## ontario3-d'r

I have heard a few times that the OAA is not doing enough for its 3D archers on a couple of different occasions, but those people have also not stated WHAT they would like to see happen. For you very minimal OAA membership, (most people spend more on coffee each week than their annual dues), you get a tournament guide which lists all of the tournaments in Ontario, provincial Championships, and travel teams. (Just like the target archers.) In the tournament guide, more than 75% of the listed tournaments are 3D. People who complain and offer a solution are much better received than just people who complain. 

There has been the Ontario Triple Crown for approx. 20 years now. There is no question that there were some real major problems with the 2nd leg this year, but to throw the OAA under the bus for 1 bad tournament in the last 60 triple crown events is just not fair. In the past, clubs with multiple tournaments under their belt, have been the host of the 2nd and 3rd leg. Most of those clubs have had the provincials at one time or another. Clubs like Durham, York, Algoma and Madawaska. These clubs, with years of experience, know how to run a big tournament and there was really no need for the OAA to be involved in the set-up of those shoots. 

I noticed in this year's tournament guide, that the second leg of the 2016 triple crown has no official club hosting it. Maybe this is a great opportunity for a club to step-up and show Ontario archers what their club can do to make the event better.


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## Topper1018

Though a rather cheesy quote, I say an organization should ask not what your membership can do for you, but what can you do for your membership. Assume it IS your responsibility for the sport to succeed, and also assume responsibility if it doesn't. Strive hard to make things better and have no excuses.


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## Stash

I think you have it backwards - the original Kennedy quote is "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." And in this context you should edit it to read "ask not what your provincial archery association can do for you, ask what you can do for your provincial archery association." 

Seeing a lot of people in these threads asking for the OAA to do stuff for them, not so much of them offering to help.


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## Topper1018

No sir, I have it correct for this context. Efforts have been made for help. They don't want it, just like they don't want 3d. That's why we the shooters are taking our own initiative. Too bad it's not 1927 anymore.


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## rockin_johny

Stash said:


> Congratulations, rockin johny, you figured it out. The OAA does nothing, and has been doing nothing since 1927.


Well,when you find something your good at stick with it. Apparently they have figured out the formula to do as little as possible while being able to grow


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## Grey Eagle

See you are still willing to beat your head against a wall Stan...lol... how have you been otherwise.

New 3D org in the works Eh! Awesome! Hope this time it actually comes to fruition. For those that shoot more than 3D, do you plan on supporting other disciplines? Or will those archers be forced to take out two memberships?


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## Bigjono

I think the name ONT3D kinda answers that. I'm not sure anyone will be forced to do anything though, it's about choice. If this federation offers well run competitive 3D tournaments it may well get strong support.


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## Robert Piette

I am wondering what the ONT3D will do to support the clubs and 3D archers of this Province. I suppose they will fund teams to go to Nationals and Worlds? Will they be advertising club level 3D shoots for there member clubs? Little to no information is available as to what they will actually do, I'll I'm hearing is they will have different rules then A/C, OAA and the IBO, they will have cash prizes, there doing a considerable amount of bashing and they will make it better. Can someone please explain without just saying the other guys suck.


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## Grey Eagle

Oh, it's a Federation...hmm.

Good questions Robert, kinda what I was wondering.

Is this new "Federation" going to simply put on a few prized shoots, ala the ASA or Reinhart? Will they be looking to bring on member clubs, offering insurance and the other benefits the OAA handles.... you know, coaching and judging clinics and accreditation, etc?


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## Topper1018

All questions are appreciated and have been long thought of and dealt with already. Everything will be answered when the website is up and running so the details are in one concrete place. Some answers I can give you are, yes on insurance we will have the best coverage policy in the province. Yes we will have a club support system and no we will not re create any other organization. Rather the best aspects of them all. No we will not be immediately venturing to other archery disciplines. Nothing against other disiplines but we feel 3d is at a crucial crossroads right now and want to concentrate there. 
I apologize for the little details I can provide but we want to avoid false rumouring of information. 

As for bashing I see no bash in indisputable facts. Anyone that thinks we haven't put forth effort to try and mend the OAA and 3d relationship is welcome to contact me directly via pm for the whole story.


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## Grey Eagle

I know that when my home club viewed the insurance situation through the OAA, and felt that additional coverage may be required, we quickly found out that any carrier willing to take us on required us to show proof of appropriate qualified oversight. In the form of accredited range officials etc. This "best in the province" insurance you speak of for your organization, do they not require something similar? And if so, and if you are not affiliating with an existing established org, how do you plan providing this?

Another question.... as the OAA is a member run org, steered by democratic vote, and you believe better can be done, why has there not been an effort made to change the org from within?


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## Topper1018

The short answer again, is efforts were made to get inside to work on the organization. By more than one of the people working to found this new organization.
I'm not an insurance salesperson or lawyer but I have been consulted along the way and can assure you our members WILL be covered by the best policy in the province. 
BigJon I'm sorry, this may not be the venue for all this discussion as is a tangent from the thread topic.


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## thunderbolt

It's all on Facebook about insurance being through OFAH so why not just say it here then? Until the website is up all we keep hearing is rumors and the story seems to keep changing about what's coming...More concrete details would be better instead of bits and pieces so people can make informed decisions.


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## Bigjono

No problem Eric, it's a kind of natural progression really.


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## Robert Piette

The whole thread is designed tare done the OAA and promote ONT3D, so please tell everyone why ONT3D is better for archery in this Province. Again, do it without tearing done the OAA.


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## Topper1018

Thunder, your right. I should have added the insurance is through OFAH, it's hot today up in this roof lol. 

It would seem that by addressing what I feel are the OAA shortcomings and trying to overcome those with our new organization I am tearing down the OAA? We are all entitled to an opinion, and that's fine. Mine is 3d archery here is better served by the founding principles of ONT3D. If that's a knock to the OAA, use it as encouragement to better themselves, only the shooters will see the benefit. 
Our aim is BY SHOOTERS FOR SHOOTERS. I'm not trying to only divulge small details, we are working very hard on the website I just ask for a bit more patience. It actually makes me happy to know how hungry for detail everyone is, I think it gives some early validation to what we are doing. Check stash"s link in a previous post, I promised change coming to Ontario. Now I am promising the website.


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## Bigjono

Robert Piette said:


> The whole thread is designed tare done the OAA and promote ONT3D, so please tell everyone why ONT3D is better for archery in this Province. Again, do it without tearing done the OAA.


Excuse me, this thread was about highlighting the issues at leg 2 if the OAA triple crown. It makes sense that it's moved to looking at the issues with OAA 3D in general I think.


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## Bigjono

I'm not seeing why some guys seem so hostile towards ONT3D. Multiple federations co exist in states and countries all over the world. If both are run well then both can flourish and ultimately benefit each other. If one is obviously sub par then it makes sense that the other one will grow better. I'm cutting down on my 3D shooting now but I intend to support both as long as they give value for money.


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## Grey Eagle

Bigjono said:


> Excuse me, this thread was about highlighting the issues at leg 2 if the OAA triple crown. It makes sense that it's moved to looking at the issues with OAA 3D in general I think.


LOL.... I hope you had your tongue firmly planted in your cheek when you typed that... LOL. I won't go so far to say bashing, or tearing down.... but the word politicking comes to mind.

As for OFAH, and brokerlink, I sincerely hope you have done your homework. Each fine orgs, but if memory serves me correct, there was some fairly restrictive clauses that left gaps in coverage for clubs operating in the fashion most do in Ontario. This is back several years ago, again when my club was shopping insurance. Things may have changed.


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## Topper1018

Make no mistake, homework has been done. This was not dreamt up over night


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## XTRMN8R

Robert Piette said:


> The whole thread is designed tare done the OAA and promote ONT3D, so please tell everyone why ONT3D is better for archery in this Province. Again, do it without tearing done the OAA.


I don't in any way see how this post was created to tear down the oaa.
most of us here have supported the oaa for many years. Constructive criticism has been given to the oaa at AGMs as well as in private and in my opinion the oaa has turned their nose up at 3d so much so that the vast majority of 3d archers have not only walked away from the oaa and tournaments but also from the discussion regarding the oaa. If the trend keeps on this way there will no longer be members paying their dues so this discussion will cease to be relevant. 

I laugh at the comment regarding the oaa supporting Teams to attend Worlds. Something I have long supported but has Never come to fruition. 

The facts as I see it are that the oaa has failed the 3d community primarily because no one is there to listen to the voice of the members and no one is there committed enough to take the positive actions needed to build a better 3d environment. The perfect example is right here in front of us. Instead of the president or representative getting out and taking a positive and official action in dealing with a serious issue we have hundreds of posts on FB and AT that do nothing to resolve or improve the situation.
!the point in regards to pioneer is not who's fault it is but who is going to take ownership and GUARENTEE it doesn't repeat! it seems the oaa has the position of Not my fault and Not my job...I don't think that is the "official voice of archery" nor "promoting archery"

For all those that want to stick with the oaa, That's fantastic, All the oaa folks out there keep on doing what you are doing. For the rest who are not happy with the last 10 years I suspect they will move on without the oaa.

As far as Ont3D goes I hope they do everything the oaa is not doing. I hope they smash the mold of politics, bickering, division and ill will and create a new environment for success in 3d. I am not "promoting" Ont3d I am just saying I am no longer willing to take a boat ride on the OAA ship Costa Concordia


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## Bigjono

Grey Eagle, I am nothing to do with ONT3D I'm just a shooter who was totally pi**ed off with a "major event". 
I have no clue what the target and field champs are run like, I hope to get to the fields this year, but I don't think anyone can, hand on heart, say the OAA run a respectable 3D shoot. It's not a reflection on Mike (who I think is a good guy) or any one person on the committee, it just seems to me like 3D is just treated like a necessary evil along side it's more important disciplines, target and field. Allowing the clubs to join the OAA, advertise their shoots under the OAA umbrella, then just allowing them to do what the heck they like after that is the killer for me. The OAA should dictate to the clubs, not the other way round. If a shoot is not run safely and in full accordance with OAA rules, there should be consequences. Shoot reports should go to the OAA to be posted on the website, results should get posted, in general, act like 3D matters if you want shooters to come back and support you otherwise the decline will continue. We all have a vested interest in this so we all want to see something improve, quickly.


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## Stash

Why aren't people getting the concept?

The OAA is not a corporation that runs things. It can't and doesn't dictate to clubs how to run their events.

The OAA is a SERVICE. It's an ASSOCIATION of clubs and individuals who have joined together for their mutual benefit. 

It ASSISTS in things that are best done collectively, like providing members and clubs with liability insurance which would be prohibitively expensive if done on an individual basis. It trains judges and coaches, hosts a website and publishes a province-wide tournament directory so people can easily find information, clubs to join and places to compete. It organizes teams to represent Ontario at National and other events, and so on. It acts as a liason between the Provincial Sports ministry and the archers of the province. It provides a set of province-wide rules which reflect the consensus of the majority of archers in the province, and a format for those rules to change as required.

These are all things that individual clubs can't do by themselves. The OAA is a SERVICE that does these things for the clubs and members.

The OAA DOES NOT RUN shoots - it HELPS clubs to run the association's Championship events by providing medals, scorecards, judges, targets, advertising, registration and giving the hosting clubs an opportunity to earn a profit. It HELPS clubs run their own shoots by setting province-wide rules so archers know what they're going to get, and by offering a place for clubs to place their notices so people can see what they are offering to the general archery population.




If people want a corporation to actually run 3D events, then it appears that ONT3D is what they are looking for. There's more than enough space in Ontario for both ONT3D and the OAA to co-exist and complement each other.

But please don't keep insisting that "the OAA SHOULD" do things that simply aren't part of its mandate.


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## FiFi

Stan "they" haven't figured out or don't want to figure out that they are the OAA. We have had the Tournament director vacant for a year now, we have ask for people to for a specific 3D committee without any interest, we have lots of talkers, complainers, arguers what ever they want to be , but little doers. We have seen this many many times, this will be what 6 or 7, hope what ever 3D group takes over does well. The previous ones failed for various reasons ranging from not enough volunteers to people finding out they are just lining someone's pocket. This new group says they have everything inplace and did all the homework necessary, lets hope so I would even encourage the OAA exec to give them a full page add free in the tournament directory, just like I did for the IBO, ASA efforts in the past


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## CLASSICHUNTER

in retrospect.. I hold one of the largest and again a charity shoot and I was never offered a free add as non profit group. just wondering???why ..oh and this year was not even contacted to renew add in directory.. which generates 300 and some dollars... I am not bashing.. but in this day and age ..wouldn`t you think some one would contact all advertisers to renew their add and not by e-mail.. just good marketing sense. imho .. I have stayed neutral on this thread ...as it is a topic that is like gas on a fire...


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## Topper1018

Just checking for my own knowledge...if OAA is a "service" and not a governing body, why is it listed as the quote "sole governing body of the province" on archery Canada's website? It would seem AC only recognizes the "sole governing body" members to compete at the Nationals.


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## Bigjono

Stash said:


> Why aren't people getting the concept?
> 
> The OAA is not a corporation that runs things. It can't and doesn't dictate to clubs how to run their events.
> 
> The OAA is a SERVICE. It's an ASSOCIATION of clubs and individuals who have joined together for their mutual benefit.
> 
> It ASSISTS in things that are best done collectively, like providing members and clubs with liability insurance which would be prohibitively expensive if done on an individual basis. It trains judges and coaches, hosts a website and publishes a province-wide tournament directory so people can easily find information, clubs to join and places to compete. It organizes teams to represent Ontario at National and other events, and so on. It acts as a liason between the Provincial Sports ministry and the archers of the province. It provides a set of province-wide rules which reflect the consensus of the majority of archers in the province, and a format for those rules to change as required.
> 
> These are all things that individual clubs can't do by themselves. The OAA is a SERVICE that does these things for the clubs and members.
> 
> The OAA DOES NOT RUN shoots - it HELPS clubs to run the association's Championship events by providing medals, scorecards, judges, targets, advertising, registration and giving the hosting clubs an opportunity to earn a profit. It HELPS clubs run their own shoots by setting province-wide rules so archers know what they're going to get, and by offering a place for clubs to place their notices so people can see what they are offering to the general archery population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If people want a corporation to actually run 3D events, then it appears that ONT3D is what they are looking for. There's more than enough space in Ontario for both ONT3D and the OAA to co-exist and complement each other.
> 
> But please don't keep insisting that "the OAA SHOULD" do things that simply aren't part of its mandate.


Ok, out of interest and for the sake of balance, what was the last 3D event you shot in?

I fully get what the OAA's mandate is and I think that for field and target it works well, mainly because those events are run under the rules of world bodies and the clubs who host these events fully understand that, set the courses accordingly and allow the correct equipment. 3D is run under whatever rules the club feels like using, allowing whatever bows they feel like and not allowing what they don't feel like. The result is we have 3D with no direction, no cohesion, no consistency and dwindling enthusiasm, that is not a healthy position. There are rules in place for 3D, very close now to iBO, which is good, but until the clubs actually follow those rules they mean nothing. Time and again I look at bows that are illegal for the class they are in but no one checks and no one cares. How many clubs actually offer all OAA classes at shoots, almost none. I've been turned away from a Trad shoot because my riser was bright pink so obviously not trad enough, yet watched guys shooting with magnetic rests and plungers, no consistency. 
We ended up with what happened at Pioneer because clubs have no direction to follow. The guys did their best but because there is no provincial standards for 3D that they need to meet, it fell short.
I respect Ted for staying neutral in this but I think we are at a crossroads here with 3D. The OAA needs to decide if they are going to take ownership of it or allow it to fade out. I want the OAA to get to grips with 3D and grow it here, along side ONT3D, kind of like the IBO and ASA, but I think the template needs tearing up and a new approach taken.


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## FiFi

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> in retrospect.. I hold one of the largest and again a charity shoot and I was never offered a free add as non profit group. just wondering???why ..oh and this year was not even contacted to renew add in directory.. which generates 300 and some dollars... I am not bashing.. but in this day and age ..wouldn`t you think some one would contact all advertisers to renew their add and not by e-mail.. just good marketing sense. imho .. I have stayed neutral on this thread ...as it is a topic that is like gas on a fire...


You are not a start up organisation as these were and most if not all clubs are non profit, as far as your add you will have to contact the marketing director if there is one


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## Grey Eagle

Again.... Why if the 3D community believes the OAA treats them like a redheaded stepchild, have they not made change from within?

It's not a monopoly, or even a benevolent dictatorship. It's a member based democracy.

To my knowledge, the only board position that requires prior experience is that of President. Past that, everything is up for grabs.

Stick your hand up, come with some support behind you, be prepared to work.

How much simpler do you need it?


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## Stash

Topper: I don't know. Ask someone with the AC what they mean by that. I suppose it's just legalese again - a term that means that they set the rules.

The OAA doesn't call itself that, at least not anywhere officially. Here's what the first paragraph of the Constitution says:


> The mandate of the Ontario Association of Archers Inc.(O.A.A.) shall be:
> 
> To develop, promote, expand and perpetuate participation in all forms of the sport of archery throughout the Province of Ontario.
> 
> The role of the Association shall be to:
> 
> Encourage the safe participation in all of the various types of archery activities.
> Initiate, implement and maintain methods for the development of all levels of participation, archery skills and facilities both for individuals and clubs.
> Act as the sole representative body for the sport of archery in Ontario in all matters relating to all levels of Government and in all matters relating to national and international archery bodies.
> Establish a uniform set of rules and regulations governing the conduct of provincial championship events and the rounds used therein, and encourage the use of these rules and regulations at all other archery competitions sponsored by affiliated clubs.


I don't see anything there about "running" anything or any variation thereof.


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## Bigjono

Grey Eagle said:


> Again.... Why if the 3D community believes the OAA treats them like a redheaded stepchild, have they not made change from within?
> 
> 
> How much simpler do you need it?


I think, looking at participation, they are doing something about it that's the problem we are try to address and I don't think your obvious prejudice against red headed people is pertinent.


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## Grey Eagle

Bigjono said:


> I think, looking at participation, they are doing something about it that's the problem we are try to address and I don't think your obvious prejudice against red headed people is pertinent.


Doesn't it strike you odd that people who have the absolute ability to affect change from within. Are hell bent on reinventing the wheel?

It does me.


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## Stash

Bigjono said:


> Ok, out of interest and for the sake of balance, what was the last 3D event you shot in?.


Don't recall the last one. Probably something at York County maybe 3-4 years ago. I did shoot quite a few a long time ago, like 10+ years ago. OAAs at Flying Feathers one year, the big Pioneer shoot way back when it was huge with 800 shooters. Other clubs I've gone to 3D shoots at over the years would include Wolf's Den, Islington, Apsley, Halton, HAHA, Caledon. I've been shooting since before there even was 3D. 

I've always liked 3D. I just wasn't ever any good at it because of my eyesight - even with a scope I have a hard time finding an aiming spot on an animal target, or even the entire animal sometimes.


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## Bigjono

Stash said:


> Don't recall the last one. Probably something at York County maybe 3-4 years ago. I did shoot quite a few a long time ago, like 10+ years ago. OAAs at Flying Feathers one year, the big Pioneer shoot way back when it was huge with 800 shooters. Other clubs I've gone to 3D shoots at over the years would include Wolf's Den, Islington, Apsley, Halton, HAHA, Caledon. I've been shooting since before there even was 3D.
> 
> I've always liked 3D. I just wasn't ever any good at it because of my eyesight - even with a scope I have a hard time finding an aiming spot on an animal target, or even the entire animal sometimes.


I hear good stories of those old Pioneer shoot, including the mud.


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## Grey Eagle

And BigJono.... for further "balance", as you say... every individual whom you would label as against 3D in this thread... I have shot 3D with. At local, Provincial, and National events.

Archers are archers.


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## Bigjono

Grey Eagle said:


> Doesn't it strike you odd that people who have the absolute ability to affect change from within. Are hell bent on reinventing the wheel?
> 
> It does me.


From what I hear, guys have tried many times but that's only what I hear.


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## Bigjono

Grey Eagle said:


> And BigJono.... for further "balance", as you say... every individual whom you would label as against 3D in this thread... I have shot 3D with. At local, Provincial, and National events.
> 
> Archers are archers.


I haven't labelled any individuals, it's just how it appears to me.


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## Bigjono

I keep seeing mention of positions available for a 3D committee. Great idea but you also said that the OAA has no power over the clubs who hold shoots so what exactly could this committee do?


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## Grey Eagle

Bigjono said:


> From what I hear, guys have tried many times but that's only what I hear.


Each term there are numerous positions at the table that go unfilled. Some directly relating to 3D.

How hard could they have tried?

Anyway.. I wish the new org the best. Hopefully, this time, something sticks and 3D does benefit.


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## Topper1018

Bigjono said:


> I hear good stories of those old Pioneer shoot, including the mud.


I still have some buckles from the "Clinic" back in the day. Our collective goal should be to see those days restored and surpassed, we have a chance.


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## FiFi

Bigjono said:


> I keep seeing mention of positions available for a 3D committee. Great idea but you also said that the OAA has no power over the clubs who hold shoots so what exactly could this committee do?



Technically the OAA has no power over the target and field clubs either, they just willfully choose to follow the rules set down and get the benefits from that, the 3D side has been in transition since the beginning, the never ending rules changes a lot of talking with and very few doing that hasn't changed in 25 years


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## CLASSICHUNTER

one reason positions go unfilled is as when I asked for a job description of position.. none was supplied ...and when looking for volunteers in this day and age of public media... request should be put out to public...oaa has time to reply to lots of things....so why not advertise on facebook and archery talk and other archery web sites...people do not go to oaa site so much since its format changed a few years ago...imho..also if you go public there is a lot of new blood out there..seems positions are filled from within as of now...tap into some new resources


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## chrispol

Part of the problem I think is that when an organization puts its name on an event a certain level of professionalism is expected. The way the event is promoted, set up and run , with the safety of its participants and spectators number one . As for the term OAA I think it should change to OTGP (Ontario Target Guide Publishing) . As Stash clearly points out they only put out shoot dates , collect some statistics and print it out or now you find it on line. Oh and are not responsible for anything . The very name Ontario Archery Association is deceptive.


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## Grey Eagle

I do wish the venture well, be it a for profit company or volunteer based organization. I hope all the perceived ills of the 3D world are solved and everybody is blissfully happy.


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## goldenarrow1974

stjoebowhunter said:


> I don't expect a OAA rep to visit every club but when its an Ontario Triple Crown shoot I expect there to be an OAA rep there and make sure its run properly and safely!


well done....:darkbeer::thumbs_up


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## bearcave

IMHO one of the biggest problems is there are way too many classes. Every time we host a shoot, we have confused people that have no idea what class they are in, or what stakes they shoot from. This is a simple sport, knock an arrow and shoot it at a target, period. There should be 3 classes, Compound, Traditional, and Crossbow that's it. I don't care if you have laser guided sighting, an 8 foot stabilizer, and it rubs your feet at the end of the day, if it has wheels you're in the Compound class, if it has a deck and horizontal limbs its a Crossbow, if it's a longbow, re-curve, or made from a sapling you ran over on your way to the shoot, it's Traditional. Now obviously, I'm being overly simplistic here, but do we really need a separate class for every little bobble you hang on your bow?


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## wheelie

HeHeHe Save a lot of hassle and just enter the open class. I did enjoy the K-50 class at the last shoot I went to. LOL


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## SPRTN308

wheelie said:


> HeHeHe Save a lot of hassle and just enter the open class. I did enjoy the K-50 class at the last shoot I went to. LOL


My wife and I shot our very first match at Galt two weeks ago in K-50.

We'll never shoot anything other than known distance. Had a great day, no frustration, and didn't lose a single arrow. 40 great looking targets and even with it being known distance, I still had some 5's that made me scratch my head. Being as I range from a treestand, I just don't see the difference. Except for how much more relaxed we both were.


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## Topper1018

SPRTN308 said:


> My wife and I shot our very first match at Galt two weeks ago in K-50.
> 
> We'll never shoot anything other than known distance. Had a great day, no frustration, and didn't lose a single arrow. 40 great looking targets and even with it being known distance, I still had some 5's that made me scratch my head. Being as I range from a treestand, I just don't see the difference. Except for how much more relaxed we both were.


Brother, I couldnt be happier to hear of another Ontario shooter giving known distance 3d a chance and enjoying themselves. This right here makes me very happy. I have nothing against unknown as well but have been a major known distance supporter. I hope you continue to attend more tournaments and fully enjoy the experience known can offer.


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## shakyshot

SPRTN308 said:


> My wife and I shot our very first match at Galt two weeks ago in K-50.
> 
> We'll never shoot anything other than known distance. Had a great day, no frustration, and didn't lose a single arrow. 40 great looking targets and even with it being known distance, I still had some 5's that made me scratch my head. Being as I range from a treestand, I just don't see the difference. Except for how much more relaxed we both were.


N sure who you are but I was there also. Good times for sure! I wo shoot 3D if I can't shoot K50. It's all a personal thing. Some of just don't lik it. If I brings m people out then to me it's what's best f business AKA the host clubs


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## Mamba1

I feel k50 will do great things for 3D in Ontario.Just this summer i've watched it go from "Whats k50? to. Is that even a real class?Now I see some of our top shooters and more respected Archers giving it a try.It will bring an even higher level of compitision to the game.And with those top people involved, everyone will benefit.


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## Bigjono

Humble opinion, all 3D should be marked then it's a test of your shooting and nerve not your distance judging.


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## shakyshot

Bigjono said:


> Humble opinion, all 3D should be marked then it's a test of your shooting and nerve not your distance judging.


Never thoug I say th but I agree with Jono! ! ! ! Mike Cook shot K50 at Elmira. George Bowman said he going to switch. I even heard rumors that McQuaker shot I recently. It's a a thing. When everyone is shoots t class shoot perfect scores every time then ill rethink my decision


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## Robert Piette

After a few years of having a K50 class in Ontario, I am starting to see more people attending the bigger shoots, particularly the Ontario Triple Crown. Pioneer had way over 100 people and I think this past weekend at Flying Feathers, there was 106 people and there were more then 20 plus that shot in the K50 class, my wife being one of them. Anything that brings more people out to the shoots is a positive thing from my perspective. The notion that at a 3D shoot needs to be either completely known distance or unkown is propably a thing of the past. By combining both at a shoot, clubs seem to have the best chance of attracting as many people as possible. The K50 class distinction and peering group that seems to be happening more frequently now has made this possible.

That being said, my personal preference when it come to 3D is to shoot unknown, I find it more challenging and fun. It adds that extra ellement that is missing from the other desciplines.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

sorry but names in k50 class where names that shot other classes before.. as per bringing new shooters out k 50 has not done that.. at all.. the people shooting it are cross overs.. I am not against k 50 but lets state it as it TRULY IS there are no new names in the class ..just people trying a different venue.... a revised hunter class back to basics and 35 yd max would get more of the commoner`s out... screw in points and 12 in max stab and no side bars ..and fixed pin 4 max ..and then you have about 75 percent of the shooting population covered in a class...imho


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## Bigjono

I know of 3 people that wouldn't shoot 3D if there was no K50 class Ted but I agree that North America in general has a compound mentality and most of them shoot standard hunting rigs so it should be the biggest class by far.


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## Robert Piette

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> sorry but names in k50 class where names that shot other classes before.. as per bringing new shooters out k 50 has not done that.. at all.. the people shooting it are cross overs.. I am not against k 50 but lets state it as it TRULY IS there are no new names in the class ..just people trying a different venue.... a revised hunter class back to basics and 35 yd max would get more of the commoner`s out... screw in points and 12 in max stab and no side bars ..and fixed pin 4 max ..and then you have about 75 percent of the shooting population covered in a class...imho


I think you just described the current OAA Hunter class, except there is a 40 yard max instead of 35 yards.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

so john did this people not shoot before before k 50 incorporated.. what I am saying is at agm it was I think instigated to encourage new shooters ... not swing current top shooters to cross over... I`ve attended many shoots with k 50 ..it is a great weekend warrior class for those that can`t devote time or have time to practice lots...but still enjoy the sport...judging yardage is a art form for sure ...luckily I am pretty good at it ...but some people can`t get it....I don`t sing... I think it needs to be promoted in a different art form... and lower distance to say 40 yds... doable shots...good shooting every one...


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## DssBB

Ted,
When Andrew whom I believe instigated the K50 class at the Oaa agm, was it intended as a means for field shooters to participate in 3D where their current shooting ability would easily allow for competitive scores without having to worry about judging distances accurately.
I agree that shorter distances for known yardage ( K30 and K40) needs to be added allowing newer shooters with limited experience or beginner equipment an opportunity to participate in 3D shoots without fear of leaving the tournaments with empty quivers and becoming discouraged with shooting 3D.


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## Topper1018

It's coming guys. Every day, inch by inch, it's coming.


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## Topper1018

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> sorry but names in k50 class where names that shot other classes before.. as per bringing new shooters out k 50 has not done that.. at all.. the people shooting it are cross overs.. I am not against k 50 but lets state it as it TRULY IS there are no new names in the class ..just people trying a different venue.... a revised hunter class back to basics and 35 yd max would get more of the commoner`s out... screw in points and 12 in max stab and no side bars ..and fixed pin 4 max ..and then you have about 75 percent of the shooting population covered in a class...imho


The part about this that got me thinking is this. Teds right that a lot of the names who have recently shot known 3d are guys that have shot for a while and/or been top level shooters. I think we are looking a little short sighted here as to why this does actually grow the sport. For a long time a stigma has been attached to the known class, I'm not pointing fingers but a few anti-known shooters have attached it, and that's fine, to each their own opinion. BUT, when recognizable names participate in Known, we smash that barrier down. We say, we accept this as a legitimate form of participation in 3d archery. I beleive this inspires confidence in others to come out and do the same, new to experienced. The more we accept participation the better chance we have to grow and succeed.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

we should drop the 50 yd thing to say k40 or 30 so the new shooters will come out and eliminate some of the bling on the bows ..the field archers are not switching over in droves so something is wrong ..in its venue ...or rules of equipement.. I think known is a good thing.. and am frustrated that it hasn`t caught on... or targeted [pun there ] the new shooters or faces it was instigated to get...numbers are up at tournaments because of the hosting clubs putting effort into their shoots.. so guys please don`t say the k50 is bringing numbers up.. its just another class people are switching too... good door prizes//food //course layout.. easy walk to next target// safe pathing// water on courses// make a shoot enjoyable// and a social event... some body has to revamp the class to fill it properly ..imho..good shooting ..eric whens website for ont 3-d coming with pricing and entry fee costs..send me a pm if you want


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## Topper1018

Website is within a couple weeks, base template is set and content is all together. Very soon. I can assure you, both known and unknown avenues from beginner to advanced have a place in ONT3D.


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## wanemann

Ted,I remember when the k50 was tabled at the agm, its intent was to possibly get target shooters to participate in 3d events not so much new shooters, for new shooter, for sure k30-40 is a good idea.


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## Bigjono

In the end it's a case of how many classes do you want. Just shoot by the distance either known or unknown then set your bow up however you want. My bow and style for example wouldn't fit into ASA in the SSUS class but I have the option to shoot K40, works for me.


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## Big F

Interesting what people remember as time passes.

This is what was presented and accepted at the OAA AGM for K50 regarding participants. This was also printed for two (maybe three) consecutive years in the OAA Directory 

This class is great for all archers...but may be especially appealing to:
•	New/Beginner archers who are looking to participate in the OAA 3D Championship and OAA 3D Triple Crown. K50 will allow for new archers to have more assurance of hitting the target during the tournament. This avoids beginners from losing/damaging their arrows by missing targets due to a lack of experience or confidence in distance estimation
•	Hunters who are looking to master their equipment before the fall hunt. The vast majority of hunting archers use a rangefinder in the field. By participating in the Known Distance class this will allow the hunter to ‘dial in’ their equipment to their own rangefinder and practice proper shot placement on 3D animals 
•	Target/Field archers who have less of an interest in yardage estimation, as it is not required in their disciplines of archery, but want to participate and support growing the sport of archery in Ontario


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## CLASSICHUNTER

none of these statements where recorded or put in a motion at agm...yes maybe constructed after the fact... and please who in their right mind would have a beginner shoot out to 50 yds as per first statement above from big f.. there is a problem right there...duh..please somebody with a grip on reality rewrite the k50 class then so it fits the intended guidelines stated above..


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## FiFi

Ted that was the motion as presented by Andrew himself


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## Bigjono

I agree with Ted, K50 is in no way a class for beginners and most hunters can't even walk 50yds let alone shoot it


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## x-hunta

The K50 class was not intended solely for beginners, but that being said, they would be shooting the same distances as most unknown classes but with the benefit of knowing the distance. To me that's a lot more friendly to beginners.


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## rmarchand

I'd shoot it.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

fifi I was there can you show me in the minuets the motion presented as you say it was .. thanks I just don`t remember that wording at all..


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## wanemann

if I could find the time to attend a 3d tournament, it pretty much the only class I would enter, as was motioned at the amg(target people)not gonna shoot my 80$ arrows guessing at distances I am no longer in the habit of practising. when I am not diligently working on my target game, ill for sure come out to shoot a k50.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

well then if incorporated to get target shooters out.. new ones that is it has pretty much failed.. maybe as I stated lower distances to k35 trad peg so not a burden on clubs and maybe k40.. will get average shooter out and hunters back out to play as well...imho


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