# What poundage for 70m shooting?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> With her shooting about 33 lbs now on her compound, 30 lb should be a good start for her to work into, or maby a few pounds less.


Maybe a LOT less. I doubt you would want her shooting more than about 20# at her draw length when you get her on the recurve. My son shoots a 42# compound, but comfortably shoots a recurve that is 23# at his 23.5" draw length. His limbs are marked 30# at 28" however, and the bow will grow with him up to about 26-27" draw, I suspect.

He can actually reach 50 meters just fine even now with the sight extended out about 5". He shoots 1512 XX75's with spin wings. They weight practically nothing.

I'm sure some others can chime in here, but I understand that as a teen, Denise Parker was shooting 70 meters with less than 30# draw weight and aluminum arrows. So it can be done, esp. with today's all carbon or A/C shafts.

Whatever you do, make sure she can handle the draw weight. She can quickly work up to 30#, but starting her out too heavy will be a sure way to have her running for the compound again. I've seen it happen many times already with youngsters.

John.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Maybe a LOT less. I doubt you would want her shooting more than about 20# at her draw length when you get her on the recurve. My son shoots a 42# compound, but comfortably shoots a recurve that is 23# at his 23.5" draw length. His limbs are marked 30# at 28" however, and the bow will grow with him up to about 26-27" draw, I suspect.
> 
> He can actually reach 50 meters just fine even now with the sight extended out about 5". He shoots 1512 XX75's with spin wings. They weight practically nothing.
> 
> ...



Hi, a bit offtopic here, but I see you guys are into competitions; I was wondering are there any restrictions regarding compound bow - for example, 
- is there a let-off % that isn't allowed? 
- can competitors use a peep sight? 
- are there restrictions for arrow sizes, and stuff?
Sorry if this sound stupid, but I've got no clue about the above questions.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dado,

it depends on the governing body. FITA, NFAA, IBO, etc.,etc. all have different rules and classes for equipment.

For FITA rules regarding equipment, go to www.archery.org

John.


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## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

My old coach used to always tell me that Dennis Parker set the national record using a 28# recurve and aluminium arrows (I cannot confirm this because the NAA's websight doesn't have records up right now) His point was that you don't need to shoot a heavy bow in order to shoot good scores. The most important thing is that she builds weight up slowly so that she can continue to shoot throughout her life (IE no shouldar troubles)

My suggestion, pick the coach you are going to have her work with and have them watch her shoot at various weights and have them decide on what is appropreate.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Hey Scott!

I would also suggest that you keep it way light at first. The drawing of a compound is only at the peak weight for a very short time and you are not trying to hold steady as you draw through.

She will need to be only 5 or so pounds more than her holding weight with a compound for starters. If she's shooting 60% letoff, that would put here at no more than 20 lbs on the fingers to start out.

She is a spectacular shooter and by doing it right with low pounds to start she will feel confident in only a few sessions. Something like a KAP Evolution in 20 lbs would suit her beautifully to start out.

My daughter has one from before they made it with international limb fittings and still has been a great bow.

If you are still shooting for PSE, give Dave K. a call and see what he can do for you with their Optima recurves. I'm sure with her talent you should have no problems getting the hook up!

Good luck with it in any case. Next thing you know you'll be back from the dark side too 

Cheers,
Pete


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## LANCELOT (Feb 21, 2005)

Limbwalker, aren't 1512 xx75's aluminum? In another thread on this sit the general agreement was that spin wings on aluminum arrows was a waste of time and money. Do you disagree? If so, since I've learned to value your opinion, I think I might want to try spin wings on my aluminum arrows.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Dado,
> 
> it depends on the governing body. FITA, NFAA, IBO, etc.,etc. all have different rules and classes for equipment.
> 
> ...



Ok thx. I've just read some rules in field archery there, and they say peep can be used, and DW musnt't be over 60#... but no mention of let-off...


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

This season I had to refletch my arrows quickly and didn't have a fletching jib available to me, so I had a friend throw on large Kurly Vanes on my 1913s in time to shoot NAA Indoor Nationals. They shot just as well as my 4" feathers and if anything maybe better. Are spin wings more expensive than feathers? To some no because some people don't have access to a jig and get charged by their range to fletch their arrows the same price it would be to buy a package of spin wings and to tape them on themselves.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Something like a KAP Evolution in 20 lbs would suit her beautifully to start out.


I'm sure you mean 20# at her draw length, not necessarily at 28", right C3?

Huntmaster,

You can put spin wings on anything you want. My son's arrows are almost as small in diameter as a navigator shaft anyway, and I needed something very light and low drag to get him out to 50 meters. I have also seen larger (4") spin wings on some folk's indoor target arrows (compounds) and they really like them.

If there is a "rule" about which arrows to use/not use spin-wings on, I haven't seen it. 

At this point, I can't use vanes on his arrows because the extra weight on the nock end would stiffen the dynamic spine. They are already a bit too stiff as it is. When he gets to drawing 25-26", I will go to vanes, at that point, unless I move him up to carbons.

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

what LW said


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Thanks to all for the help and compliment c3! I'm hoping she takes to the recurve like she did her compound. Watch out if she does. I've never been anything short of impressed by her abilities.

I was actually thinking 30lb at 28". Since she's pulling 24 1/2", I was assuming she'd be about 24# plus or minus. Looks like even that may be too much to start with, so I'll probably have to get at least a couple different sets of limbs. Lets just say I want to start her on 20 -21 lbs.......25# limbs? 

In fact, I think her starter recurve (first bow she ever shot - Browning) is a 25# bow, but I'm not sure if it's at 28". I'll check that. Maby I should get that out and let her shoot it just for the draw weight. I believe I have an old Check-It site at home that's been abandoned long ago. I could probably hook her up with a temporary trial bow to test the poundage under real shooting conditions.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

I just had to share a photo taken after she shot on Sunday. How's that for a finger shooters target?


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

Wish my targets looked like that. Congrats =)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Lets just say I want to start her on 20 -21 lbs.......25# limbs?


That sounds about right. I think your idea of trying that Browning bow is a good one.

Nice target by the way!

John.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Can't stand it and have to throw my $0.02 in.

Her compound is 33# and likely 65% which means holding 11.5#, about right?

And you guys are recommending 20# with a recurve after first being concerned about the "ideal" weight for 70 meters.

Are you aware of just how many grown men do not even hold 20# with a compound? Bumping her from 11.5 to 20 is like making a grown man go from 18 holding to 30 and he will think it is killing him.

Putting a 20# at her draw recurve on that girl now is a sure way to ruin her archery. How do you even know she can hold 20# at all much less long enough for proper shot execution?

It will not be inexpensive with the constant limb changes but I say no more than 15# now at her draw length to start unless it is more important to practice drawing heavy bow weights than to practice correct shot execution.

Even so, that is a 30% increase in holding weight.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Spin wing vanes were NOT invented after carbon arrows.

Spin wing vanes ARE about arrow control without excessive back end weight.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I'm sure you mean 20# at her draw length, not necessarily at 28", right C3?
> 
> John.


I was refering to the right thing to do for right now as she's getting started. The 70m thing is out of the question at this point IMHO. I would start with no more than 20 lbs. on the fingers. Like Jim say's probably 15 lbs would be better.

You can learn perfect technique with the lower poundage that will serve her well in the long run, then worry about reaching the distance next year when she's had a chance to develope the proper muscles.

I started with 27 lbs on the fingers last Jan. and was dying trying to shoot as many arrows as I wanted. That was after 20 something years of shooting 65 - 70 lbs. compounds. Now after a year and a few months with the recurve, I've finally worked up to 40 lbs comfortably. I'm only about 3 weeks at that weight, but can shoot a full 60 arrows straight finally.

I just don't think you can learn to feel where the body needs to be with higher weight. My daughter at 12 is finally starting to be able to handle the 18 or so lbs on her figners. If she shot more regularly she'd be right there.

That is one incredible target there Scott! Tell her congrats. Did she get any 300's at indoor nats?

Cheers,
Pete


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

FS560 said:


> Can't stand it and have to throw my $0.02 in.
> 
> Her compound is 33# and likely 65% which means holding 11.5#, about right?
> 
> ...


Well, 20# isn't that much. In addition, you will be hard pressed to find limbs lighter than 18#. 16# is very very hard to get your hands on. Maybe lancaster has some evo 2's in stock, but at the rate they sell out....

Not to mention that the evo 2 is the only limb lancaster stocks that comes in 20# or less. I'm not sure if pro shops can order 20# limbs from Hoyt or not, but lancaster doesn't sell them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FS560,

Relax, dad will know what to do.

I have helped lots of JOAD kids, and almost every one is capable of handling a 20# recurve if they have been shooting bows for any length of time. I'm not talking about 100 arrows/day, but most kids can comfortably handle 20# on their fingers for 40-50 arrows/day.

If not, then I'm sure her dad will know what to do.

I agree C3, 70 meters isn't even in the equasion right now.

John.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

OK then, it's time to turn this into the "stupid question post" officially then. I realize I don't need to think about what 70 meters requires right now, but was looking into the future for possible signs of problems, or prefered growth goals for her to take on as she progresses. We'll try the 25# first and see what happens. May have to go lighter, but we'll find out for sure.

Now for the stupid questions post, and this may prove just how much I don't know about recurve shooting. The Olympic compound has limb bolts like my wheelie bow. Are they adjustable at all as far as weight? Is the adjustment just intended for limb balance purposes? I'm prety sure they're not bolted tight like my take down recurve, so what gives with the limb bolts?

Item two. The coach I talked to kept mentioning a beiter block for adjusting the bow for limb straightness and center shot. Was he refering to the limb line guages that Beiter sells?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> OK then, it's time to turn this into the "stupid question post" officially then. I realize I don't need to think about what 70 meters requires right now, but was looking into the future for possible signs of problems, or prefered growth goals for her to take on as she progresses. We'll try the 25# first and see what happens. May have to go lighter, but we'll find out for sure.
> 
> Now for the stupid questions post, and this may prove just how much I don't know about recurve shooting. The Olympic compound has limb bolts like my wheelie bow. Are they adjustable at all as far as weight? Is the adjustment just intended for limb balance purposes? I'm prety sure they're not bolted tight like my take down recurve, so what gives with the limb bolts?
> 
> Item two. The coach I talked to kept mentioning a beiter block for adjusting the bow for limb straightness and center shot. Was he refering to the limb line guages that Beiter sells?


different olympic bows have different systems. Hoyts and Skys normally feature a 5-10% range of adjustment -hoyt limbs if marked 34 pounds will normally be about 32 with the limbs backed all the way out and 35-36 with the bolts down as close to the riser as possible at 28"

some makers have tiller built in their limbs-ie the lower limb is slightly stiffer than the top-others have none

the YAMAHA (discontinued-great bow) was listed at max weight-by the use of shims you could decrease the weight-yamaha limbs didn't fit the HOYT ILF system (Sky's sort of fit-that is another discussion)

the martin I shoot indoors contained no mention of weight adjustment and unlike my other bows-every martin I have seen (8 or so-which is probably about half those sold  ) always had the limb bolts down fairly low.

all of the standard bows allow tiller change-the old TD-2 and Sky medalists did not.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntmaster,

Don't worry. I wondered about many of the same things when my son started JOAD a couple years ago. 

Many of the kids beginner bows do not have adjustable weight and tiller. The limbs just bolt on, like your takedown recurve. In order to have adjustable weight and tiller, you generally need a riser and limbs that use the international limb fitting (ILF). My favorite kids ILF bow is the Samick Mizar, but the Progress II is another low-cost ILF bow. The Samick is capable of very good performance for the price. My son has his expert archer level in JOAD, and has shot to 50 meters outdoors with it. His limbs are 30#@28", but he has 23# on his fingers at 23.5". That riser is adjustable by about 10% for weight and tiller.

Beiter makes limb gauges that are inexpensive plastic "blocks" that fit on the limbs to help with alignment. Not all risers can be adjusted for limb alignment. My son's Mizar is not adjustable, and very few risers that sell for under $300 are adjustable for limb alignment. Don't worry. It's not a big deal. In fact, with all the limb alignment problems I've had using adjustable risers, I actually prefer risers that do not have this feature. Fewer things to go wrong, and you can tune a bow just fine as long as the alignment is pretty close.

Hope this helps.

John.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Actually, I'm looking at an Aero Tech or a Matrix for her. I've commited myself to getting her nothing but the best I can buy. Let's just say I see no reason to pinch any pennies, although I may go a little cheaper on her first limbs. Besides, I really don't want to buy the riser a second time for quite a while if possible.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

It is hard to relax when history teaches us that fathers and husbands tend to overbow their children and wives.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

It's not a bad reflex to have FS, but relax. Fathers aren't supposed to make good coaches either, but I like to think of myself as not normal   
Hay, I may have just said something my x would agree with


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Huntmaster,
> 
> Don't worry. I wondered about many of the same things when my son started JOAD a couple years ago.
> 
> ...



LW-I don't think the Progress II is ILF-it uses a modified version of the old TD-2 system (similar to your axis)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, you're right. Maybe I was thinking of the KAP Evolution II? 

Hey, what do I know. I like the Samick Mizar anyway 

Quite a few folks in Louisville commented to my son about what a good looking bow he had. He liked that 

John.


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## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

Huntmaster said:


> Actually, I'm looking at an Aero Tech or a Matrix for her. I've commited myself to getting her nothing but the best I can buy. Let's just say I see no reason to pinch any pennies, although I may go a little cheaper on her first limbs. Besides, I really don't want to buy the riser a second time for quite a while if possible.


Definately go cheap on limbs at first, that way you are not too eager to get too heavy of limbs. PM me if you are having trouble getting light limbs, I have connections


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## J.A.C.K. (Feb 16, 2005)

*Samick Mizar*

My girlfriend had one of these as her first bow. Definitely a good option if the mass weight of the bow might be an issue as it's very light (just over 900g I think).
The Mizar she had certainly had limb alignment. If you fully remove the smaller of the two grub screws that lock the weight adjustment, you'll find another hexagonal fitting that can be turned to offset the bolt that the end of the limb fits onto.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jack, are you sure you're thinking of the Mizar?

I really don't think you can adjust the limb alingment on that one, unless I'm just clueless here...

You are correct about the weight for sure. It is really light, and perfect for kids.

John.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

ok then, here's the plan. One of Hoyt's risers....either the Aero Tech or the Matrix riser at 23". Medium limbs (makes bow at 66" - she's almost 5' tall) from probably W&W...probably the lowest they make, or 20#. I'm thinking the medium length limbs will stack less....I hope. She can shoot them till she's comfortable, then I'll start cranking them up slowly till max, then to the next set of limbs once comfortable. I'll probably stop limb increases near indoor season next fall to let her shoot comfortably. Maby the last set of limbs before target season will be some of the higher quality foam limbs. Heck, it took her 5 years to get from 18# to 33# she's at now, and increases only happened during the off seasons. (actually most of them were due to draw length changes, and the resulting increase with draw length).

Here's one last question. I see that I can get fiberglass/wood limbs, or carbon/wood limbs for roughly the same price, with carbons being barely more. Is carbon better? Doesn't relax as much? More stable? or is it just a different material?

So, does this sound like a good plan?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Jim, you're right. Maybe I was thinking of the KAP Evolution II?
> 
> Hey, what do I know. I like the Samick Mizar anyway
> 
> ...


the KAP evolution two is a WW product built on the old Yamaha machinery. It does have some adjustment.

Yes, the MIZAR-as cast risers go-is neat looking. Never cared much for the looks of the EOLLA (the bow Samick ripped off with the Agulla) but the Mizar is nice


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## J.A.C.K. (Feb 16, 2005)

*Mizar alignment*

yep, I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing. The riser I'm thinking of looks like these:
http://www.samicksports.com/imgs/imgs_116.gif 
I'm certain that it had limb alignment as, when it was first used, the string was quite far from the center and we had to adjust it. Our one came with a sheet of instructions that explained how to do that. If you didn't have the instructions, I don't think it would be obvious...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, then maybe I AM missing something!  

I'll have to take a look at this tonight. I've never heard of the Mizar having adjustable limb alignment, but if it does, that's cool.

These really are neat little risers for ladies and JOAD kids.

John.


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Huntmaster said:


> ok then, here's the plan. One of Hoyt's risers....either the Aero Tech or the Matrix riser at 23". Medium limbs (makes bow at 66" - she's almost 5' tall) from probably W&W...probably the lowest they make, or 20#. I'm thinking the medium length limbs will stack less....I hope. She can shoot them till she's comfortable, then I'll start cranking them up slowly till max, then to the next set of limbs once comfortable. I'll probably stop limb increases near indoor season next fall to let her shoot comfortably. Maby the last set of limbs before target season will be some of the higher quality foam limbs. Heck, it took her 5 years to get from 18# to 33# she's at now, and increases only happened during the off seasons. (actually most of them were due to draw length changes, and the resulting increase with draw length).
> 
> Here's one last question. I see that I can get fiberglass/wood limbs, or carbon/wood limbs for roughly the same price, with carbons being barely more. Is carbon better? Doesn't relax as much? More stable? or is it just a different material?
> 
> So, does this sound like a good plan?



Carbon/wood limbs are similar to fiberglass limbs in that it has the same general structure, but the carbon limbs have carbon layer(s) in them. They are reputed to give limbs more speed.

As for anything else, I don't remember.


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