# Lets talk classes



## Stash

The only conclusion we will all agree on is that the the proper division structure will be somewhere between a single category for all competitors and a separate category for each competitor.

Speaking from experience, ask the mods to delete this thread. Nothing good will come of this.


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## Topper1018

In typical condescending stash fashion, you fail to see the root good I am digging for. Real information from real shooters. No I will not ask the mods to delete this thread as this among other resources will aid me in mission toward something better for all of us. Bottled up frustrations result in nothing good to come. 
Please, everyone, I ask only for YOUR opinion in its rawest form as that is what everyone is entitled to. YOUR opinion. And you will be heard

As well, I may have made a mistake in not specifying I am speaking about 3d archery. Not a knock to other forms but 3d is my passion and part of my mission


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## JDoupe

I think there are too many divisions.....but I'm not quite sure where to cut.

I certainly think you could split the age difference of masters and make it one class (55+)....but I'm not if that age yet.....so not sure if it needs to be 59&60 or not.

I am interested in the idea of classes based on distance......but do not know how that would work out.

I am interested in following this thread to hear what people have to say.

Would be nice if it stayed constructive.......or at least for a while.


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## Bigjono

I think it would be fairly easy to limit it to 5 equipment classes, Open and Hunter for compound, Trad and BB for single string then Xbow.


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## rockin_johny

Bigjono said:


> I think it would be fairly easy to limit it to 5 equipment classes, Open and Hunter for compound, Trad and BB for single string then Xbow.


And adding to Jono's comments:

Trad being a recurve or longbow with NO sights and simple elevated rests (weather rest style) allowed and 3 under or split finger NO string walking. 

BB being your target based recurve set up with or without sights and stabs, clickers etc. 3 under or split and string walking allowed


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## thunderbolt

:happy1:


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## ArcherMan

male female

compound 
hunter
single string 

six class.!?. this is good


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## oktalotl

Eric, frankly speaking, I really liked the simple classes at your tournament this year. I just think the barebow or RU class will be required to differentiate guys with rests and pure trad. 
Other than that, it was simple, and I mean simple for good class division, something fresh and new. Also a lot of clubs suffer from too short distances in hunter class, so I don't second distance base division in one age/gender group. Let's all shoot far, aim small - miss small.


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## thunderbolt

This subject comes up every year! The biggest issue is that *3D is a form of target* archery and everyone wants to bend the rules to suit themselves to say that because they hunt with whatever gear, it should still be allowed in Hunter class for example. To me, look at the Equipment chart and pick where you fit in, not change the rules to fit your equipment. Basically if you want new classes or less classes there are 2 real options. 1- Run for an OAA position or petition the OAA rules committee and follow the process to get changes made, or 2- Form a distinct 3D association for Ontario and set it up the way "your" membership wants.

It isn't a simple solution either way!


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## peregrine82

Eric, you have the luxury of being able to have as many or as few classes as you want. It is your tournament and you can set classes arbitrarily. The reason there is such a myriad of classes in the OAA, ASA and IBO is that those organizations

caved in to the noisiest lobbiers. Unfortunately the human psyche being what it is everyone wants a chance to win, even if that chance is marginal at best. We all know that if you cut down the kids classes less of them will walk up to the podium

to accept their medal(s). If the trend to introduce more and more classes continues pretty soon there will be classes separated by 3 year increments. Americans are far more prone to this than we are, Look at the ASA and their K45 and K50.

2 identical classes separated by 5 yds.?? The IBO with its hunter class introduces advanced hunter. Pretty soon it will be super advanced hunter and then really, really, advanced hunter. 2 years ago the introduction of 70+(Depends class).



My point is that I see all of this the dumbing down of a sport. It seems it is not enough anymore to put in the time to become proficient enough that you are competitive in your sport. We have to 

make a myriad of classes so that virtually anyone can find a class where they think they have a chance. Notice I said "think" because the reality is if you can't shoot a lick you are never going to win no matter how many classes there are. 

When we run tournaments we have to balance off the number of classes we have between too many and too few. Too few and attendance drops dramatically, to many and the purists slam your event. 


My advice Eric, and we all know that free advice is worth every penny, is to sit down with experienced 3D tournament shooters, both trad and compound and try to come to a happy balance that will see you have a 

successful tournament both from a monetary perspective and a satisfaction of attendees perspective. These are just my thoughts and opinions based on several years of tournament competition both in Canada and the US. I hope there will be further posts

from others giving a constructive perspective. It will be interesting to see where this thread goes.


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## Topper1018

Forget the OAA this has zilch to do with them. I'm talking a new structure new organization. There is no fixing what is. That's not a bash it just is what it is. Please let's refrain from further OAA mention.
If I may address the recurve shooters as I want to be able to work with them as well, it's no secret trad and ru numbers are thin, what about a simple "single string unsighted class". No restriction on stab, or rest just no sight or sighting mechanism and must shoot fingers? A thought. Build the numbers and then address separation.


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## Topper1018

Further to clear up a few things. The solution to loud lobbies whining for more separation is simple really. MOVE OUT rules. Removing te division separation by equipment allows movement from classes by level. That way you always have shooters shooting against the proper level of competition for their skill level. Cater to shooters, challenge the winners. 
Bobby, I just would like to clarify te Asa k45 and k50 are separated by a class level, not just the 5 yards, that is a consequence of moving to a pro level class. K45 remains amateur level. This is the basic principal I am digging at. Separation by experience.
Also, keep in mind I am thinking larger scale, not a single tournament but rather a tour style on a yearly basis


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## thunderbolt

I really hope you are able to accomplish what you are trying to do with 3D archery. Too many times this has been brought up with a ton of great ideas, but once it comes to actually getting something done, everyone disappears. Just like volunteers at clubs...starts out great, but everyone knows how that turns out...


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## Topper1018

Take comfort in knowing I am taking every step to make things possible. Lets keep the discussion rolling, I will need all the info I can gather.


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## postman99

I think a tournament series is a great idea, also I completely agree about less classes. I also think if you shoot a certain class and completely dominate that class shoot after shoot you should be moved up to the next respective class. Also I would love to see the 280fps rule in effect to level out the playing field a little bit for guys with t-rex arms like myself. also peer grouping should be mandatory for the second round or final round of a shoot. if you are going to set up something and need the help I would be happy to be involved


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## rockin_johny

Topper1018 said:


> If I may address the recurve shooters as I want to be able to work with them as well, it's no secret trad and ru numbers are thin, what about a simple "single string unsighted class". No restriction on stab, or rest just no sight or sighting mechanism and must shoot fingers? A thought. Build the numbers and then address separation.


This could work but you could also specify NO string walking or a finger must be touching the arrow nock rule


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## Bigjono

rockin_johny said:


> And adding to Jono's comments:
> 
> Trad being a recurve or longbow with NO sights and simple elevated rests (weather rest style) allowed and 3 under or split finger NO string walking.
> 
> BB being your target based recurve set up with or without sights and stabs, clickers etc. 3 under or split and string walking allowed


I would keep Trad off the shelf RJ or a feather rest at the most and not allow sights in BB but follow existing RU or BB rules.
If you look at the shoots, most compounders fit into the 2 basic classes with all the others having just a couple of names so making 2 classes makes for bigger classes which is good.


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## Topper1018

rockin_johny said:


> This could work but you could also specify NO string walking or a finger must be touching the arrow nock rule


Positive thinking, we are thinking together this is the direction I want. 

Personally I agree with speed limits. 290 rather plus grace, maxing at 297. Gives anyone adequate speed and levels it for everyone.


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## rockin_johny

Bigjono said:


> I would keep Trad off the shelf RJ or a feather rest at the most and not allow sights in BB but follow existing RU or BB rules.
> If you look at the shoots, most compounders fit into the 2 basic classes with all the others having just a couple of names so making 2 classes makes for bigger classes which is good.


Or a Weather rest style of adhesive stick on rest. After all they have been used by Trad fore fathers like Fred Bear since the 60's


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## Bigjono

rockin_johny said:


> Or a Weather rest style of adhesive stick on rest. After all they have been used by Trad fore fathers like Fred Bear since the 60's


Fred who?  yep I agree on that RJ


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## CLASSICHUNTER

hey eric we had 25 trad shooters at the pand p ..shoot...I personaly cut the kids down to 3 age groups and 2 classes /trad and compound .. I dropped junior as well when your 17 u can pull 60 pounds and see like a eagle..... male and female ...I had trad which was longbow and recurve combined...and ru recurve unaided.. and a longbow guy won the trad ...and he shot the highest score in the shoot down 50 points.. 5 10s which I think was the highest even in the open guys which your score was the highest.... do as u please as bobby says its your tournament..u saw what happened at mine .. don`t ask just do... my motto from now on lol lol ..you had a great turn out for a great cause.. I will be there again.. but can I win a friggin door prize this time lol lol ..MERRY CHRISTMAS


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## Robert Piette

It's your tournament, you can set the classes the way you see fit. My only caution is to not make things complicated, and if you are going to limit the classes, communicate this out so people know what they are getting into before they get there, especially if you plan on limiting speed. 

I ran an indoor 3D this past winter and limited it to BHO, Limited, Hunter and Trad. I only had 4 age classes; Senior, Masters 50+, Cadet and Cub. Everybody seemed to fit and I think we had 60 people. There was a little grumbling from people with BHR equipment, but not much. 

Some of the best target tournaments have limited classes, often only 2, Compound and Recurve. Look at the Ontario Spring Classic, they get people from across the country and only offer compound and recurve. No reason why a similar concept can't work for 3D.


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## Stash

This will never happen, but I'd like to suggest a 3D shoot that goes back to its origins - as a hunting simulation. 

Have a 3D shoot where people bring what they actually hunt with (other than broadheads), and they have to produce a current or recent hunting license. 2 divisions to make it fair - compound with anything people can reasonably hunt with on it, and closer stakes for stickbow ("one string" - call it whatever you want) but fingers and unsighted. That's it. Maybe a crossbow division as well. 

Redraw the kill areas so they are correct anatomically from the angle of the shot taken. A point for a kill, a minus point for a non-lethal wound and a zero for a miss (or pass).

The deer, moose or bear does not care what the hunter's age, gender, or bow type was. It's either dead, has run away unscathed or is hiding somewhere licking its wound.


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## Bigjono

Apart from U16 I'm not sure you need any other age classes. Why an over 50 and over 60, just shoot for gods sake.
As for producing a hunting license, that is the worst idea I've ever heard.
I would like to see one stake for all classes, max 50yd


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## Topper1018

Again, everyone I am not speaking on one specific event. Im talking an organization and a tour. Drop everything you know about the current organizations and how they put shooters in class. Here is my idea

Level 1- UK30 -expected to be a novice/beginner class, no shooter of the year 30 yard max
-SSUS (single string unsighted) any recurve or longbow, no sights, we will tweak the details 30 yard max unknown
level 2-UK40-unknown 40 yard max
-K40 entry level known distance class 40 yards max
Level 3-UK50 top level competition advanced skillset 50 yard max unknown
-K50 top level known distance 50 yards max

This is not about how to run a tournament or what you would like to see happen at a tournament just on class structure. This is a broad overview still to be tweaked


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## Bigjono

Interesting but needs some more thought.


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## XTRMN8R

maybe we just need competitive and non competitive class, that way they guys just out for some fun don't need to squabble over what the title on their card reads ???


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## Topper1018

BigJon- I agree, like I said just a broad overview of how the thought process is working right now, I definitely need to sit down and work with shooters to fine tune

The FUN class at our Floyd memorial was a big hit, I'd like to keep that idea in the mix for sure, keep the door open for the casual shooter.


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## Flatliner396

I don't think using the experience of archers to separate them into classes is a good idea. This promotes sand bagging, this format is used in pool tournaments and is a very very poor system.


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## Flatliner396

Advanced skill set?? The description of classes is bleak at best. But keep working at it i hate the OAA


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## thunderbolt

If you're setting up a unique "tour" and want nothing from the OAA you better be sure to have some sort of insurance in place...just in case...


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## Topper1018

No this system does not promote samdbagging because move out rules are in place. After a set amount of wins or points whatever it may be you are moved up, gonzo. If you win there enuff up again. You don't have a choice in the matter if your a winner you will be challenged with the best competition I can provide
YES the description is bleek at best! It's a broad overview, I intend to work on it. But don't count on being in a different class cuz you shoot a different stabilizer than the next guy. That's what I want understood

Thunder, again I am taking every step. It's not my first conoe trip, I have been stewing this plan for some time


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## Robert Piette

Just putting this out there, Ontario already has as a "tour", it's called the triple crown. It's not well attended and that has nothing to do with the classes. There is a reason why attendance drops after the first leg , it has everything to do with the amount of travel required for the three events and how many people there are in Ontario that are actually willing to travel all across the province. Ontario is a huge, geographically it's the size of several states. Additionally, the population density is drastically different from the states, so comparisons to the ASA or IBO events probably aren't realistic. You may want to consider that you are attempting to fix something that really isn't broken. 

Mind you, if you did bring something like what are talking about to Ontario, I would definitely be interested.


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## Topper1018

Yes it is broken. The triple crown is a flop. I've been asked before if I beleive we have the following to support such and idea. My answer is no. There is nothing worth following to build on. It can be fixed, just not under the current system
People attend the Asa from very long distance, I've talked with such people and absorb their reasoning for doing so.


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## JDoupe

One of the biggest problems with the triple crown is that it's not peer grouped until the last leg (although it is in the rules that it is to be peer grouped for all three legs).

This takes the actual competition out if the shoot right from the top.

Like someone else has stated.....permed grouping is needed if you are in a competitive category.


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## Topper1018

Doupe your absolutely right, and I beleive anyone wanting a competitive environment would agree. 
Although it is a separate issue from this thread I have spent much time on it. The best solution is every shooter must be tracked. A membership number needs to have your experience level class attached to the information in an accessible system by registration personelle at every tournament. When you register your level class is given a range and a random number generator provides you a target 1-20 as it may be. You show up to that target at the specified time and meet your group. All of whom have gone thru the same process. 
Again fine details to be tweaked. Membership has to be for something other than handing over your money.


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## JDoupe

I think that is great. I really like shooting with people I know.....but I like to shoot with people I don't know as much, or more. Getting to know people from around the province makes these shoots so much more enjoyable.

A couple of years ago Big Al from Onaping Falls broke all the groups up for the morning.....and then peer grouped for the afternoon.

Was one of the best shoots I've ever attended....just because I got to shoot with a bunch of different people.

You say anyone wanting a competitive environment would agree.......but I'm sure there would be those who will not.


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## Topper1018

There would without a doubt be those that disagree that is what the FUN class is for
I have met some of the best people by being assigned groups at shoots abroad. It's how it should be. Shooter interaction should be a part of te entire tournament experience. How else do you learn new things? Some of my stronger skills in strategy and other areas on the course have come from shooting with strangers with knowledge to share.


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## shakyshot

:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

Sorry. But everytime anything is put on here about "change" to 3d of any kind it goes south. The biggest problem I see with this topic is one person asks for opinions and that's where it goes wrong. If you want to try a new swing on things go for it. Your way. Simple. Opinions only lead to arguments.


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## mprus

I agree with Shawn. That being said, I would like a class for my dog to compete in!


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## crkelly

My two cents Eric. Keep it simple and peer group from day one. Also have enough judges on course for disagreements. Once rules are in place and archers are made aware of them in advance stick to your guns. Good luck with this.


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## rockin_johny

Eric, just state up front that it is not an OAA tournament and then all the nay-sayers will stay away. Only the guys that want to shoot and compete with equal minded people will show up. Win, lose, don't matter. A fun day, a well planned course and some great competition is all that really matters. Leave the $1.50 medals for the forty classes to the OAA


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## Bigjono

Build it and they will come as someone once said.
Set it up, print the rules then everyone knows up front.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

hunting license stan ur killing me I pee,d my pants laughing.. 3/4 of the archers don`t have hunting licenses as they don`t all hunt.. oh I used my outside voice... lol lol


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## CLASSICHUNTER

eric call me or pm me thanks ...


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## Topper1018

shakyshot said:


> :deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse
> 
> Sorry. But everytime anything is put on here about "change" to 3d of any kind it goes south. The biggest problem I see with this topic is one person asks for opinions and that's where it goes wrong. If you want to try a new swing on things go for it. Your way. Simple. Opinions only lead to arguments.


No one has tried to accomplish what i aim to, I am not asking for volunteers or information for help to accomplish it, only the rawest thoughts from the shooters themselves. I am trying to build an informed foundation before I dive in fully. 
I feel this thread has been controlled well so far, aside from the odd typical snyde keyboard cowboy which was to be expected. we havent descended to childish name calling yet so I call that a win after 45 posts. 
This is constructive thinking, trying to get people thinking together to communicate information they feel necessary for the true success of our sport. If you are not gonna be a part move along, I dont need ya.

Charles, you hit the nail on the head as I feel 90 percent of all issues can be solved with peer groups from the get go and yes when I do write the rule book sticking to it will be the utmost of importance.


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## Topper1018

rockin_johny said:


> Eric, just state up front that it is not an OAA tournament and then all the nay-sayers will stay away. Only the guys that want to shoot and compete with equal minded people will show up. Win, lose, don't matter. A fun day, a well planned course and some great competition is all that really matters. Leave the $1.50 medals for the forty classes to the OAA


well said


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## FiFi

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> hunting license stan ur killing me I pee,d my pants laughing.. 3/4 of the archers don`t have hunting licenses as they don`t all hunt.. oh I used my outside voice... lol lol



its funny you mention that, since that was one of the proposals for the first OAA Bowhunting Champs a few decades ago, it didn't make it in but was certainly on the table, the membership went with seniors starting at 16 instead since that was when you could get a hunting license, There was BH Unl (release) BH limited (fingers) BB and longbow and 3 age divisions along with mens and womens, it was membership driven then and what ever is inplace now is also membership driven


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## ArcherMan

Topper1018 said:


> No one has tried to accomplish what i aim to.


Believe this you do.?!.

Make the whole show K45-50 so same for all. This is the FUTURE of 3D and NOW of HUNTING. 

Than we have a FUN time


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## shakyshot

How about you put the speed limit back in so it levels the playing field? Short draw guys sure as hell can't compete when they max out at 270 fps. And guys with ape arms like me can reach 330±. Just an idea


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## MADZUKI

Topper1018 said:


> Again, everyone I am not speaking on one specific event. Im talking an organization and a tour. Drop everything you know about the current organizations and how they put shooters in class. Here is my idea
> 
> Level 1- UK30 -expected to be a novice/beginner class, no shooter of the year 30 yard max
> -SSUS (single string unsighted) any recurve or longbow, no sights, we will tweak the details 30 yard max unknown
> level 2-UK40-unknown 40 yard max
> -K40 entry level known distance class 40 yards max
> Level 3-UK50 top level competition advanced skillset 50 yard max unknown
> -K50 top level known distance 50 yards max
> 
> This is not about how to run a tournament or what you would like to see happen at a tournament just on class structure. This is a broad overview still to be tweaked


This is interesting. Would there be any equipment restrictions within the levels ?


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## Topper1018

No restrictions on equipment within the levels. I may consider adding a level at 45 yard max as well if the separation is needed. But that future thinking. Move out rules get the shooters at the top of each level moved to more adequate competition. If you feel your best with pins and a short stab, start at uk40 and see how you do. Just an example. Shooters that have been moved up because of wins cannot regress inside of 1 year at all, and must not have placed within certain criteria to be considered for class regression. Shooters best options are to start low and win your way up unless you feel your abilities fit better at a higher level.


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## MADZUKI

Sounds good Topper.


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## Bigjono

Is this a genuine attempt at getting a shooting series going? If so I'm in. 3D has kind of lost it's way here right now so it could be just what's needed to kick start it. Ted seems to be building something good at his shoot so it can be done.


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## peregrine82

When I read your initial post Eric I thought you were asking for ideas for your own tournament. From subsequent posts it appears you are looking for a competitive "tour" to compete with the triple crown. It also appears from what you say that

you are going to set the rules for this new "tour". I for one have no problems with any one trying to get something new going. First thing you are going to have to do is to have clubs on board willing to host these events, or at the very least the

ability to lease or rent property to hold the event on. You will have to keep in mind that virtually all the clubs have their annual tournaments set and won't be all that anxious to accommodate a fledgling competitive tournament series. I am

not trying to be negative as I feel there are huge issues with the OAA triple crown amply demonstrated by the very poor turn outs at these three events. I am sure you are aware of the new organization in the US, "Regions" that started 

with great fanfare. It was well advertised, venues set and the hope was for good turn outs to support the efforts put in by the organizers. I am not 100% sure but I believe "Regions" is on a death watch. If I am wrong in my assumptions 

about what you are planning then let me know. I think it would be better if you plainly stated what your goals and expectations are.


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## Bigjono

As stated earlier, I think the sheer size of the province makes the TC hard to do so you would need to think about locations. I don't mind driving 8,10,12hrs or more for a two day shoot in a good field but I wouldn't drive 4hrs to compete against one or two guys. If the TC or any other event like it was done in zones it might be better attended.


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## Robert Piette

Bigjono said:


> As stated earlier, I think the sheer size of the province makes the TC hard to do so you would need to think about locations. I don't mind driving 8,10,12hrs or more for a two day shoot in a good field but I wouldn't drive 4hrs to compete against one or two guys. If the TC or any other event like it was done in zones it might be better attended.


Agreed, location is important. If the Triple Crown was Centrally located it would have much better attendance.


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## Topper1018

I am working on solving that problem right now. My solution is eliminate the clubs. I will not be looking to hold tournaments at clubs but rather venues i can set up new and different courses each time. Conservation area are in the crosshairs right now, I am working on it. This will alow me to locate events in desirable locations. This is is the short version.
I will describe more detail as this plays out and I have more time.
Bobby, I am very aware of the regions swan song currently and Im glad you have brought that up. I have done a bunch of research with shooters on this very thing. The short answer is Regions is doing everything right, the people that show up have a great time. However, they must butt heads with both the ASA and IBO for shooters money. most people can only afford a few of these big events a year, much less stay in with 3 big organizations. 
I dont need to be huge, my aim is more towards the improvement of the sport and our shooters right now. And I feel we need it.

BigJon, Saying your in is the encouragement I have been looking for. I am glad to see the support


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## Stash

Instead of building from scratch, maybe consider getting involved with the Quebec 3-D circuit http://www.pro3d.ca/ or even trying to affiliate with the ASA directly as a 6th region?

This is a serious suggestion - I've already been insulted 3 times in this thread and I think that's about enough.


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## Bigjono

Not Quebec please 
ASA or IBO would be cool though.


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## Topper1018

I have had communications with Asa president mike Terrell about affiliating with them, we plan to revisit that at some point as we did hit a stalemate with insurance details. 
But, on the contrary I do feel here we should have our own identity here. I feel basing some things from the ASA will help but slightly modifying to suit out needs here in Ontario can set us apart in a positive way


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## Robert Piette

To do what you are talking about, i.e. a "tour" circuit, there is no need for a separate association. You just need to register as a club with the OAA, then your insurance issues are resolved. Most clubs don't follow OAA rules, they have there own, you can impose any rule you want, i.e. Speed limits, classes, whatever. Really what you are talking about with your association is enhanced administration for Tournaments, again a separate association isn't required, that can be a club activity. There is nothing preventing you from researching the OAA site for top ranked archers to classify them for you base stats, and then track those that attend the tour moving forward. To pay for the administration aspect, charge a "club membership fee" to be part of the tour circuit. I think you are making this more complicated then it needs to be.


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## Topper1018

Call it stupidity or foolish pride or whatever, but if I can do it without any affiliation with the OAA I will. You all know how I feel about the OAA and their pot belly slapping representatives telling me where our OAA membership money is going. That was the last straw for me. I won't be any part of an organization with such misplaced arrogance. 
Point to mr McQuaker for the banner name, I like ONT3D much better.


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## Robert Piette

I personally would leverage the many benefits of the OAA, insurance, advertising, administration, club networks, etc. to get myself off the ground. If the tour is huge success then I would look at branching out, but it would need to based on a sound business plan.


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## Bigjono

Rinehart have managed it with the R100, no affiliation yet people flock to it so it can be done.


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## Stash

Topper1018 said:


> ... we havent descended to childish name calling yet so I call that a win after 45 posts.
> 
> .................. the OAA and their pot belly slapping representatives .... with such misplaced arrogance.


Well, you got to 63 posts. At least that's something.


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## jeronimo

Topper1018 said:


> Call it stupidity or foolish pride or whatever, but if I can do it without any affiliation with the OAA I will. You all know how I feel about the OAA and their pot belly slapping representatives telling me where our OAA membership money is going. That was the last straw for me. I won't be any part of an organization with such misplaced arrogance.
> Point to mr McQuaker for the banner name, I like ONT3D much better.


we had a similar situation here in Quebec with the "quebec federation of archers" a few years ago and thats when the Pro3D sanctioning body was born . it is no where near perfect but way better than the FCA affiliated one we had before.


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## Topper1018

Stash said:


> Well, you got to 63 posts. At least that's something.


That wasn't calling names stash. That actually happened.


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## FiFi

mighty arrogant of the OAA to fund a junior team to the 3D Nationals.... the horror of it


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## Topper1018

In what world does that have to do with anything? I was on that junior team. Twice actually. It's a great thing. But when one of your representatives slaps his belly in front of me and says I'm just here to show you where your OAA money is going. I call that arrogance. This is not an OAA bash and defend thread if your going to make it that move along I, and we don't need you. Even stash has come around a little an offered up some sound words and suggestion. Follow suit or button it please.


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## ArcherMan

Topper1018 said:


> Call it stupidity or foolish pride or whatever, but if I can do it without any affiliation with the OAA I will. You all know how I feel about the OAA and their pot belly slapping representatives telling me where our OAA membership money is going. That was the last straw for me. I won't be any part of an organization with such misplaced arrogance.
> Point to mr McQuaker for the banner name, I like ONT3D much better.


Ok time.?!. This is the real reason for you and this thread it seem... Motivation.!?.
When and where did they tell you while slapping the pot.?!. If this is the motivation . the REASON WHY should be CLEAR . not MUD. 
Can you CLEAR this up.?!.


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## Topper1018

Durham archers, 3rd leg of te triple crown, you think i am makin this up? And no this is not te motivation, rather the final straw. My motivation is shooters. Good people participating in a great sport that deserve something more than what we have because there are better ways out there. What kind of motivation must that be when I will gladly give up my own shooting time here at home to try and build something better for 3d archery. I don't understand why the OAA cannot be left out of this discussion. Some of you seem to br trying to lay traps here as you clearly know how heated my views of them are. Im not the only one. and i continually ask the oaa be left out of the discussion. Contrary, some others are in support and YES that is absolutely more motivation, how much more CLEAR need it be? It's not a matter of whether this will happen or not , this thread was for opinions on how I can set up a better class structure. When it comes time for the hammer to fall I will be te one making the final decision, not a board or democratic vote. But if I truly want shooter support I must listen to them and be fully informed in my decisions by the people who actually attend.


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## rockin_johny

Topper1018 said:


> But if I truly want shooter support I must listen to them and be fully informed in my decisions by the people who actually attend.


Now that's just crazy talk


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## JDoupe

Topper.....I think I may have been present for "the comment".......or he said it a couple of times to different people.

Kind of a frustrating comment to hear.


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## Topper1018

Thanks Doupe, maybe it was made in humour, maybe another reason but it really boiled me then, and really bothers me still. Like I said though, just the final straw for me anyway. 

Lets move to something positive, maybe get people a bit more interested in the idea. I would ideally like to do 2 day events and scoring rounds be 20 targets per day as well making available a 10 target team event the first day and a 10 target known distance range with ASA scoring that can be shot by groups at anytime during the weekend. All classes and events to be paid back portions on entry fee for prizes, rather than medals/trophies. 

Also, it is a goal of mine to provide encouragement for clubs to keep quality targets on their ranges by offering targets and replacement cores at discounted prices following events. 
Please any and all questions you may ponder I will do my best to address.


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## FiFi

Then if this what you are truly after you can do this tomorrow, simply get a business license start up a tournament company, buy all the targets needed then hire out all the work needed. no clubs or organisation's needed what so ever. There are a few private clubs in Michigan that operate this way, you pay you shoot you leave, no club format or association involved, all targets and range is groomed similar to a golf course idea, as well most of the big tournaments in Europe are run without any association, Vegas is run by a committee separate from the NFAA, its not like it hasn't been done


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## JDoupe

Eric.....this will be awesome if you get it going.


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## JDoupe

FIFi.....with the knowledge you have.......it would be great to hear your helpul suggestions.

Indeed he could do this on his own......but he would have to buy / lease land at different venues.

Having the clubs on board would help out with that.

Not sure exactly what he's thinking......but I don't think he will be asking the clubs to do all the work and provide targets.

It will be a mutually agreeable arrangement.

I for one am excited to find out more.

Eric......are you bunking for this coming summer....or the next?

More details!!!!!


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## FiFi

he has already said he doesn't want clubs or organisations, that leaves operating as a company, nothing wrong with that, I have said on many occasions that if I had the backing I would run a shooting complex like that , target field 3D indoors etc all together no club to join or board to answer to, ranges in top condition because I would be paying for it to be done, no volunteers to back out at the last minute etc etc. As well he has said he would offer clubs cores at discount prices kind hard to do that without being a business. If you run it as a business you have total control on what product you put out


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## Stash

Great idea. Start a new shooting facility at some venue in the heart of 3D country. Get a business license and insurance. Lease or buy some land, build a (for want of a better word) clubhouse. Hire some staff, and run shoots any way he wants. Why not toss in a Pro Shop at the same time? With an indoor range for those winter months.

Maybe after a few years, sell franchises to people in other areas of Ontario.


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## Topper1018

To clarify, when I said the solution is eliminate the clubs, that may have been a harsh sounding choice of words. My idea is using public lands for venues, not existing archery clubs. Conservation area parks are a good example. I steal this model from the ASA. Injection into the local economy being the leverage. thus, avoiding rental/lease costs and paying more back to the shooters.
My connections for targets have been established, I actually went through 80 targets and 160 cores last year, both on my home course and at our event. Most of those have been sold to new clubs and existing clubs at very discounted prices. I get use of the target, they end up with a very lightly used main body with a used core, and a brand new replacement core. win win. 
As for not wanting organizations or clubs involved, I stated I dont want one particular organization involved. Clubs are a much different story, one must have the support of clubs to garner any kind of success. I want a new organization that works with clubs, again model the ASA. Taking what works from their model while giving Ontario shooters their own identity is my goal. I want when shooters travel abroad and they say "I usually compete in the ONT3D..." I want that to really mean something. 
'Hiring out all the work' is also a non issue, I have functioned my entire life by the sweat of my own brow, I see no reason to change that immediately. I have done it before, and what some call a lot of work, I dont call nearly as much when i actually WANT to be doing it.


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## Topper1018

Stash/FiFi- The radiating condescension is getting old guys, especially when you dont understand where I am going with this idea. No one mention a clubhouse and ranges blah blah blah, the goal is a mobile organization putting down events at desirable locations. Bite the bullet and attend an ASA this year, you will understand then.

Doupe- With any luck I will roll one or two events this coming season and begin to set an all important precedent.


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## FiFi

Nothing condescending at all, know exactly what you want to do, I have been to tournaments where the club rented a portion of a provincial park,, one OAA 3D Champs was held at a conservation area, the new unused sight was a huge draw, took a lot of work and extra insurance rider but they( club) pulled it off. I was in negotiations with Wayne Pearson way back to run ASA Provincial Champs under the OAA wing using their entire format rules regs shoot down etc. would have happened until they decided they wanted a bunch of money from every shooter leaving the club with next to nothing. The ASA format leaves a small foot print making it easily mobile. I was serious about running it as a business and hiring out when needed this way you can guarantee your product, you really think ASA doesn't have paid staff there to ensure things run smooth


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## Stash

There was nothing condescending there. You asked for opinions, we gave them. I'm not looking for an argument. It's a suggestion. 

I gave you a humorous comment in my first post, even included a smilie which you apparently missed, and you jumped on me. Then I gave you a serious opinion on the kind of shoot I'd like to see, and a couple of guys insulted me. I then gave you a decent couple of suggestions and now you accuse me of being condescending.

Wolf's Den has a similar arrangement and they're doing well. A business that had a 3D range and pro shop. Not a club. I figured you might be interested in doing something similar but setting up your own shooting rules. 

If you don't like my suggestions, how about just saying "thanks, but not what I'm looking for" and moving on? You're the one who asked us to "stay civil" and we are. It's not me and "Fifi" who are being rude.


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## Bigjono

The UK champs is never held at a club, it's always on rented private land so no shooter will ever have seen the course before, works perfectly well so it can be done. We have an abandoned RV park on the edge of our town that I've often thought of holding a shoot at, the terrain is awesome.


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## Topper1018

Stash said:


> Great idea. Start a new shooting facility at some venue in the heart of 3D country. Get a business license and insurance. Lease or buy some land, build a (for want of a better word) clubhouse. Hire some staff, and run shoots any way he wants. Why not toss in a Pro Shop at the same time? With an indoor range for those winter months.
> 
> Maybe after a few years, sell franchises to people in other areas of Ontario.


Unfortunately stash, this along with most other thing you wrote reads as condescension. Happen to notice this has not been the case eith anyone else besides you two on this thread? In your words, thanks, but not thanks. Please don't post here again.


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## ontario3-d'r

One thing that should be looked into before too long is what the potential property(s) to host the event will allow. A few years back, a similar idea came up, but the conservation area chosen would not allow shooting lanes and pathways to be cut. Some conservation areas have trees planted by people, and would be ideal for shooting. However, if it is a natural conservation area, then you may be limited as to what you can do with the tournament design. The only real issue that I can see is the number of weekends that we can actually shoot outside in Ontario. With hundreds of clubs in Ontario already running tournaments to make money for themselves, there might not be too many weekends remaining that would attract a big crowd. One of the weekends last summer had over 10 different tournaments available for a shooter to choose from. It may be tough to get people from more than a couple hours drive to come to the event if they have options closer to home. Weekend selection will be very important in the success of your tour. Hope this helps.


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## shootthewhatnow

ontario3-d'r said:


> ... A few years back, a similar idea came up, but the conservation area chosen would not allow shooting lanes and pathways to be cut. Some conservation areas have trees planted by people, and would be ideal for shooting. However, if it is a natural conservation area, then you may be limited as to what you can do with the tournament design.


Why are we cutting lanes? sry... I've never really understood this... 3d's origin (from my limited understanding of archery history) is "Hunting practice" (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Does the deer stand still so I can cut a clear shot path to it? I've never hunted, but from what I've heard critters tend to move away if you twitch, let alone start up a chainsaw...

Here's a suggestion... screw the lanes... if the venue doesn't allow for modification, make it a string shoot... *find* a shot from the trail (which most conservation areas have at least some of) like a hunter would have to. If someone whines that they busted an arrow on a tree the response should be "Did you find an open shot that matches your skill level?".

Cheers... not trying to be down on you Timmer, but arrow carnage at a 3D tournament **is to be expected**... they make new ones everyday.


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## Topper1018

Tim, thank you for the advice. I do agree what you say will need certain attention. Conflicting weekends is one reason I need club support, so I can work with them . These are good points and posts like this are appreciated


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## Topper1018

3d is not really hunting practise anymore, more of a competitive target style now. Lanes need be clear for shots. String shoots are a good novelty idea but not the direction I want. Like Tim says, some areas with planted trees are ideal. Asa is famous for this. This is why venues need to be scouted much ahead of time. .


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## Bigjono

Weekends outside may be limited but come winter why not rent a hall and have an indoor 3D tournament like the iBO events. Most towns have fairgrounds sitting idle all winter with big heated buildings on them 
I'm not a fan of cleared lanes but the kill needs to be clear as does the peg. The canopy also needs to be high enough. Branches in the way can divert arrows, no danger if hunting but could go bad at a 3D event.


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## Topper1018

Bigjono said:


> Weekends outside may be limited but come winter why not rent a hall and have an indoor 3D tournament like the iBO events. Most towns have fairgrounds sitting idle all winter with big heated buildings on them
> I'm not a fan of cleared lanes but the kill needs to be clear as does the peg. The canopy also needs to be high enough. Branches in the way can divert arrows, no danger if hunting but could go bad at a 3D event.


definately a thought to build on if this thing snowballs enough.


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## shootthewhatnow

Topper1018 said:


> ...Lanes need be clear for shots...


You can make of your new org/group/event/venue what you wish, but I totally disagree... 3D is not golf. If it was golf they'd tell me how far away every target was and plant a flag on the 12.

Not being sarcastic at all when I say good luck, but please remember that this isn't field, or target... its supposed to be hard, in the woods, around trees. Clearing away all of the stuff that makes the woods the woods is ... well... indoors.


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## Bigjono

shootthewhatnow said:


> You can make of your new org/group/event/venue what you wish, but I totally disagree... 3D is not golf. If it was golf they'd tell me how far away every target was and plant a flag on the 12.
> 
> Not being sarcastic at all when I say good luck, but please remember that this isn't field, or target... its supposed to be hard, in the woods, around trees. Clearing away all of the stuff that makes the woods the woods is ... well... indoors.


It's a balance to get it right, some clubs do some just plonk targets in the middle of paths for a boring shot. Come and shoot one of my courses at HaHa sometime, we always have a good balance and make guys think and if we get any moaning it's always from compound guys [emoji3] You have to have clear access to the kill but visual distractions and hidden dead ground are always good.


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## Topper1018

Thanks for your input. Scoring areas will be visible from a set stake.


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## crkelly

I'm in an area that allows me to shoot in Ontario, Quebec and New York. A few years ago I could find any number of shoots on any given weekend. Now I'm seeing large gaps with no shoots listed at all. Here in the eastern part of Ontario we could use more clubs hosting both indoor and outdoor tournaments. In short we are loosing our clubs and the ones left just aren't interested in hosting shoots as in the past. A large gap was left with the loss of the Seaway Challenge so I say go for it Eric you have my support.


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## Topper1018

Glad to have you on board Charles. 
Anyone else, please post up support and opinions!


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## peregrine82

I am fully supportive Eric, I know what a huge undertaking this is and wish you well. Anything that adds positively to the current landscape of 3D in Ontario should be welcomed by everyone. You have a wealth of knowledge out there and I

am sure most will be willing to help in any way they can. Charles is a perfect example, wants a a quality shoot every weekend, loves to support 3D and bashes no one.


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## ontario3-d'r

If challenging shots are the goal, and not to have "golf" conditions, that is fine. You still will however, need a path to walk down, off to the side of the shot, to retrieve your arrows. Whether it is the shooting lane, or the walking path, alterations to the landscape will have to happen. Just make sure it is allowed before the committee starts to set up the tournament, and then is asked to leave, or worse yet - FINED. As other people have mention, it is a fine line for a good tournament set-up. You don't want it too easy, but you don't want to make it so hard that the competitors will not come back a second time. Within reason, the top 10 guys are going to be the top ten guys regardless of how hard the course is. By making the course too difficult, you have just ensured that 90% of the people there leave upset. Speaking for myself, I would never go back to an event where arrow carnage "is to be expected". Archery is expensive enough without having to buy arrows every week.


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## Bigjono

ontario3-d'r said:


> If challenging shots are the goal, and not to have "golf" conditions, that is fine. You still will however, need a path to walk down, off to the side of the shot, to retrieve your arrows. Whether it is the shooting lane, or the walking path, alterations to the landscape will have to happen. Just make sure it is allowed before the committee starts to set up the tournament, and then is asked to leave, or worse yet - FINED. As other people have mention, it is a fine line for a good tournament set-up. You don't want it too easy, but you don't want to make it so hard that the competitors will not come back a second time. Within reason, the top 10 guys are going to be the top ten guys regardless of how hard the course is. By making the course too difficult, you have just ensured that 90% of the people there leave upset. Speaking for myself, I would never go back to an event where arrow carnage "is to be expected". Archery is expensive enough without having to buy arrows every week.


I agree, there are a couple of clubs I won't shoot at anymore for that very reason. Unsafe hale mary shots are no good for any class. You also need to factor in all skill levels. If a new comer try's it out and blanks 30 out of 40 targets, they may not try it again. Like I said, it's a tricky balance.


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## FiFi

ontario3-d'r said:


> If challenging shots are the goal, and not to have "golf" conditions, that is fine. You still will however, need a path to walk down, off to the side of the shot, to retrieve your arrows. Whether it is the shooting lane, or the walking path, alterations to the landscape will have to happen. Just make sure it is allowed before the committee starts to set up the tournament, and then is asked to leave, or worse yet - FINED. As other people have mention, it is a fine line for a good tournament set-up. You don't want it too easy, but you don't want to make it so hard that the competitors will not come back a second time. Within reason, the top 10 guys are going to be the top ten guys regardless of how hard the course is. By making the course too difficult, you have just ensured that 90% of the people there leave upset. Speaking for myself, I would never go back to an event where arrow carnage "is to be expected". Archery is expensive enough without having to buy arrows every week.



Agreed Tim, we have seen and shot some hairy ranges over the years, but course layout and good shots don't need to hard at all, even the K50 doesn't shoot clean, so with the ASA type of shoot proposed the foot print will be smaller and possibly every target shooting at the same time you can have safe close quarter shooting and with high or low 12's in place long distances will not be needed


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## JDoupe

Awesome idea coming up.

Let's keep this going.

The support is sounding better and better!!!!


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## Topper1018

I dont know that I would institute ASA scoring for all scoreing rounds right away. Just the 10 target known distance range at first to get people a feel for aiming low and back without dropping out or high and forward without popping up. The general shooter populous here knows the center 11 scoring well, the 40 standard scored targets for the weekend i would probably follow this method, maybe change the center ring back to 12 score as all center 10 rings have been shrunk on the Mckenzie line to avoid the connection lines between center circle and high and low 12 rings. Its not a massive change in size, but they are definitely tougher to hit even when you have the yardage and make a good shot. 
Even though lanes are clear for shooting at ASA events they often time put the stake where you have to shoot between multiple trees and will quarter targets quite a bit. a 40 yard coyote between trees and a log up to its belly is a crazy intimidating shot believe me. Always something different to keep you guessing. My point is there are ways to keep a course challengeing and exciting without introduceing obstacles. Ive always been of the opinion course shots need to vary in distance from shot to shot. My theory is if you forget to set your sight from the last target you will probably miss. 27,30,28,31,33....gets old. how about 24, 42, 34, 27, 48,37, 29...you get the idea.


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## oktalotl

I fully support more pronounced range variation.



Topper1018 said:


> I dont know that I would institute ASA scoring for all scoreing rounds right away. Just the 10 target known distance range at first to get people a feel for aiming low and back without dropping out or high and forward without popping up. The general shooter populous here knows the center 11 scoring well, the 40 standard scored targets for the weekend i would probably follow this method, maybe change the center ring back to 12 score as all center 10 rings have been shrunk on the Mckenzie line to avoid the connection lines between center circle and high and low 12 rings. Its not a massive change in size, but they are definitely tougher to hit even when you have the yardage and make a good shot.
> Even though lanes are clear for shooting at ASA events they often time put the stake where you have to shoot between multiple trees and will quarter targets quite a bit. a 40 yard coyote between trees and a log up to its belly is a crazy intimidating shot believe me. Always something different to keep you guessing. My point is there are ways to keep a course challengeing and exciting without introduceing obstacles. Ive always been of the opinion course shots need to vary in distance from shot to shot. My theory is if you forget to set your sight from the last target you will probably miss. 27,30,28,31,33....gets old. how about 24, 42, 34, 27, 48,37, 29...you get the idea.


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## greygrouse

Set a clever, safe course, get shooters through it in good time and follow whatever rules you determine are best for everyone's interests. If that doesn't make people happy, well, they can always leave or perhaps, be shown the door. We have a responsibility to arrive on time, shoot compliant equipment and respect other competitors. Having attended two shoots at Durham this year, I would venture that their shoot template touches all the bases. Bobby, the only thing missing was a great homemade date square. Shoots like Durham's make you want to get ready for the next one. Topper, thanks for a great thread.

John, Master 60 and counting.


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## peregrine82

Well, this thread has gone 5 pages and 107 posts with only a smidge of issue. I for one hope Eric is successful with his endeavour. I know what an uphill battle he is facing. As for courses being groomed or primitive I can only say most clubs

have to deal with the topography they have. We at Durham don't have a lot of real estate so we have to be creative. At first glance our South course appears somewhat mundane, until you shoot it. Without naming him I talked with a very

accomplished 3D shooter who said the South course totally kicked his a s s. My point is groomed or not groomed you still have to stand at the stake, get the yardage right and make the shot. Kingston is a prime example of a small club with a

non groomed superbly set course. I love shooting there because they go out of their way to set a great course. It really is a diamond in the rough. 


Thanks for your comments about our club John, we have a huge volunteer base which is the secret to getting things done. Rest assured I am going to make sure we have the finest date squares available just

for you.


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## Jbooter

ontario3-d'r said:


> ...Speaking for myself, I would never go back to an event where arrow carnage "is to be expected". Archery is expensive enough without having to buy arrows every week.


I completely agree as well with you on this one. I myself, like many others out there, simply cannot afford to be handing away multiple arrows at each event due to extremely difficult shots. Do I expect it will happen every now and then? Well sure, I'm not a top shooter by any means, but I like challenges. But I myself, and I'd like to think the majority of people, would also enjoy themselves much more at 3D events if they were able to keep the "arrow carnage" to a minimum. It doesn't mean courses can't be challenging as has been stated.

In relation to course layout design, something to maybe consider for all clubs is putting up some backstops on all targets. I know some are doing this already, but it would be great to see more of it. You could then introduce more challenging shot scenarios that people are calling for knowing that shooters will have a greater chance at retrieving their arrow if they miss. Simple squares of carpet being hung behind targets is something I've seen done before. As we know, archers who are new to 3D tend to miss more often than others. By being able to retrieve arrows quickly, it will remove the anxiety/pressure off the shooter in having to find their arrow in the bush and holding up the rest of their group. I've been there before. You feel rushed and embarrassed and it sometimes affects your next shot. Backstops will keep the flow of the tournament moving along and I think it will translate into participants returning more to yearly events and subsequently 3D archers improving themselves. Good for the sport no?


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## Topper1018

This is another point I feel will be addressed by structureing classes by distance and encourage shooters to start where their current skill dictates and win their way up so to speak. This hopefully will keep more new shooters on the foam and remove necessity for back stops. Which, just my personal opinion, sort of takes away from the experience.


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## JDoupe

I think backstops have there place in a club atmosphere.

Buy at a tournament.......I like to not see them.

Makes judging distance a little tougher as well.

I also find they take away from some lanes. In North Bay, we have one lane that is normally a deer.....and after the target....the ground falls away to a beautiful pond. Absolutely one of the nicest lanes I have seen anywhere........and when we put a big backstop behind it.....it totally takes away from the shot.

I get it.....if you miss the target....your loosing an arrow. No doubt about it. So I get that the beginners and some of the traditional folks prefer to have it there......but IMHO, lanes look better without them.


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## Bigjono

Backstops are for practice ranges not tournament shoots IMHO.


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## rockin_johny

Isn't the target the back stop :wink:


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## Bigjono

rockin_johny said:


> Isn't the target the back stop :wink:


No because from what I've seen you normally hit the backstop so it can't be [emoji16]


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## Hoytalpha35

Classes imo should be

Senior - 50+ 45 yard max
Open - 20-49 50 yard max
BHR - 20-49 50 yard max
True Hunter - 20-49, 40 yard max. 6 gpp arrow, short stabilizers, 4 or 5 pin sight who cares
Trad
BB


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## araz2114

Very interesting read Eric and everyone. I for one am a HUGE fan of a speed limit that is achievable for us T-Rex armed guys. When it was proposed and passed to allow the 5 Gr per pound rule at OAA events, I respectfully declined shooting as much 3D as I did in the past and instead focused my time and money on Field Archery. I am not interested in working my A S S off to get perfect range while other can just turn up their speed. I'd totally be interested in shooting an "ASA type" event here in Ontario. I'd also like to see OAA return to a speed limit in the 290-300 fps area. But that's for another thread.  

Keep up the good work Eric. FiFi is right... the OAA started out with minimal classes... some of us wish it had stayed that way.

Chris Priester


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## FiFi

The original classes where BH Unl, BH Limited, BB, Trad. in keeping with todays changes in equipment and 3D moving from hunting orientated to target orientated, I would go with Release, fingers sighted, fingers unsighted and Xbow of course. I do honestly believe that the OAA has the Xbow division rules in a good place with a 350 fps cap, and going to 300 fps for the rest would be still inline with the IFAA World BH Champs , ASA is only 10 fps under that mark now. With it being owned/operated by an individual you won't have to worry about the never ending fluidity that comes with a membership organisation.


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## crkelly

Leave the senior 45 yards in the US and keep the 50 yard master the same distance as the others. It will be one less peg in the ground to deal with and most masters I know will have no problems with 50 yards. The speed limit I can go either way with this one. As for the long draw person having the advantage pay attention to the bow makers sites. It's the 30 to 33" bows that are the speed demons and very few offer a guy like me my draw length. Some gain no extra speed once over 30 inches and even run into other problems. Free beer and a back rub after a long day on the range would also have my vote. lol


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## JDoupe

Crkelly is giving away free beer and back rubs at all 3D shoots this year!

You heard it here first folks!!!!!!


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## Topper1018

FiFi said:


> The original classes where BH Unl, BH Limited, BB, Trad. in keeping with todays changes in equipment and 3D moving from hunting orientated to target orientated, I would go with Release, fingers sighted, fingers unsighted and Xbow of course. I do honestly believe that the OAA has the Xbow division rules in a good place with a 350 fps cap, and going to 300 fps for the rest would be still inline with the IFAA World BH Champs , ASA is only 10 fps under that mark now. With it being owned/operated by an individual you won't have to worry about the never ending fluidity that comes with a membership organisation.


Again, classes by equipment is the targeted change to classes by distance/experience. 
I beleive in speed limits, for the same reasons. 290 plus grace capping at 297. If you can pull more weight and shoot a faster bow, shoot a heavier arrow there are many advantages to that. 
Free beer and back rubs? This thing is gonna be HUGE!!!! Lol


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## Topper1018

Ima up this for a good read I have just finished for probably the 100th time. I want to let everyone know that I have a lot of change going on in my life currently and while this idea is still stuck in my mind i cannot help but lessen its importance in the grand scheme right now. My ideas are ambitious and i really do hope to continue my work toward greater goals, this season I am definately hoping for one event at the very least. Hope everyone visiting this forumn can read through this thread and keep posting on the ideas, dont let it die yet!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

good work buddy


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## mhlbdonny

Bigjono said:


> Fred who?  yep I agree on that RJ


I don't remember either you or rj being around in the 1960's jono LOL, but I was at the meeting where the rules for bb were first addressed. around 1972 elevated rests, target bows and string walking proved to be far more accurate than off the shelf with the typical hunting bow of the day [bear super mag, red wing hunter longbow etc.] I can't see where anything has changed between off the shelf recurve or longbow compared to a bb rig since then, nor should they be in the same class at any shoot. the same for olympic rigs.


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## mhlbdonny

Hoytalpha35 said:


> Classes imo should be
> 
> Senior - 50+ 45 yard max
> Open - 20-49 50 yard max
> BHR - 20-49 50 yard max
> True Hunter - 20-49, 40 yard max. 6 gpp arrow, short stabilizers, 4 or 5 pin sight who cares
> Trad
> BB


I did'nt see this before my last post. That setup should make every one happy, If thats possible.


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## Topper1018

Unfortunately, that still seems to be missing the point. Classes are still divided by what's hanging on your bow. 

Single string unsighted and UK30- 30 yard max unknown distance, any equipment in Uk30
UK40- any equipment,40 yard max unknown
K40-any equipment 40 yard max Known distance
M50-any equipment, 55+, 50 yard max , paid class based on entrants 
UK50- any equipment, any age, paid class, shooter of the year award,top 5 shootdown per event,50 yard max unknown distance and incentives

UK50 INCENTIVES- all uk50 participants get preferred parking at events, paid class based on entrance and cash prize percentage held over for shooter of the year award....I'm still stewing on this but I think it's logical to try and offer incentives to attend for shooters putting in the time an practise to compete at this level. Thought?


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## Topper1018

Again, all classes and attendance tracked to enforce move out rules at each class level. Shoot the equipment you think you are best with or just what you have. Above classes divided into male and female of course. Add a FUN class

ALSO, thought on 300 fps cap with no grace, chrono on and chrono off all classes except FUN


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## MMBowhtr

I know its really my place to comment on this but what you are proposing is eerily similar to what we tried in PA several years ago, now we didn't have a known class but the rest is basically the same, while the intension was good the end result failed pretty badly, what we found is when we forced a move out in a lower class if you will it pretty much forced an equipment change as well to be competitive, ie if you win the single string class as you put it the next class is un40 if your are shooting essentially a BB you are now pretty much a donor in the next class if you are against the sights and pins etc, in the first shoots we had great numbers but as the circuit continued it became apparent that the next years shoots where going to have issues with move out rules, now I could be reading it wrong or what you really intended I am not sure but just a thought to consider


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## Topper1018

Sorry, no move out rule for single string class. Trad style and compound are really apples and oranges.


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## canadabowhunter

I say keep it simple. Open, Hunter, trad, 16 and under, 10 and under. There's almost ZERO chance I would ever win a tournament even if I were one of 3 guys in my class so Im stating his purely because it makes things easy. But then again, I'm there for the fun, not the Medal or Trophy


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## Bigjono

You can't just have Trad, where does that leave the barebow string walkers? Put us in trad and listen to the whining from the squat and pluck boys.


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## marcelxl

Bigjono said:


> You can't just have Trad, where does that leave the barebow string walkers? Put us in trad and listen to the whining from the squat and pluck boys.


I agree…..although I am probably one of those squat and pluck more than I am a string walker!

Back in the UK (for 3d) there were 10 classes and then not everyone was really catered for (primitive to crossbow and everything in-between)

The trick would be to limit the classes to no distinct disadvantage to difference in gear.

As a "trad" shooter I think that a class for wood arrows, one for others and a recurve unlimited would be a good minimalist option…… to mostly keep folks happy!
You could go on forever though (like we had in the UK!)


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## Bigjono

marcelxl said:


> I agree…..although I am probably one of those squat and pluck more than I am a string walker!
> 
> Back in the UK (for 3d) there were 10 classes and then not everyone was really catered for (primitive to crossbow and everything in-between)
> 
> The trick would be to limit the classes to no distinct disadvantage to difference in gear.
> 
> As a "trad" shooter I think that a class for wood arrows, one for others and a recurve unlimited would be a good minimalist option…… to mostly keep folks happy!
> You could go on forever though (like we had in the UK!)


Well I'm an NFAS guy so I know all about strange classes 
I shot woodies for years but to be honest, don't see a future for them, most guys can't or won't make them now. I used to buy 100 shafts just to get 2 matching dozen, expensive and time consuming.


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## ronperreault

My only thought on this would be to have Masters 50+ not 55


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## marcelxl

Bigjono said:


> Well I'm an NFAS guy so I know all about strange classes
> I shot woodies for years but to be honest, don't see a future for them, most guys can't or won't make them now. I used to buy 100 shafts just to get 2 matching dozen, expensive and time consuming.


Another Ex-pat? 

I miss the NFAS shoots and those fine folks I meet en route (and those long assed presentations at the end to get through the classes!) 

I know what you are saying, I kinda like shooting woodies but it's just for fun (if I want to chuck a stick I will walk the dog!)

That said, I know that here in BC, at least at some of the shoots I have attended that there are quite a few loyal wooden arrow flingers who would stick to that stubbornly. (and why not!?)

I shoot very modern longbows and recurves to a lesser extent (ILF) with composite arrows. In my opinion to give the non wheeled and sightless guys a fair kick of the can that a Barebow, a recurve, a longbow and a primitive/wooden arrow class would be fair.

Fyi to all you who have not had the pleasure of the (British) NFAS classes they are: (If memory serves)

Crossbow
Compound
Compound limited (fingers and pin sight)
Freestyle (where olympic recurves went and I think your string walkers?)
Barebow (any non wheeled/lever bow, any arrows unsighted, 3 under allowed)
Bowhunter (unsighted compounds and lever bows - fingers, split only)
American flat bow - longbow to most of you (wooden arrows and split finger release only)
hunting tackle (as above but any traditional type bow) 
English longbow (woods and split only)
Primitive

I think that's it!


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