# Walk back centershot done right!



## zenarch

I still say nonsense. If the arrow you shot at 20 yds was allowed to pass through the spot and continue downrange to a target at 60 yds, placed on the same line as the 20 yd target, it would hit center of the spot at 60 as well. If it went from point A (the bow), to point B (the 20 yd spot) how can it change direction and miss point C (the 60 yd target). If you mis-adjust your centershot puposely and use your windage adjustment to bring you back into the center of the spot again, you should also hit the 60 yd spot downrange.
I say if your sight level is correct the centershot adjustment is not critical. Eyeball it in to where you like it and leave it.
Nice shooting though. Why aren't you out there making some money if you can group like that at 60 yds repeatedly?
Joe B.


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## bowbender1

I have followed the other thread and just went over this one. Bow Zo has done a great job!! I have been doing walk back tuneing for a better part of 20 years. It has helped me when I shot fingers and now as I shoot a release. 

Lets say that your sight bar and level are all squared up and the sight bar adjusted for your cante. This should be set before any tunning has started. My next step would be to to set a 1 inch engineers tape horizontal and set my nocking point at the yardage that I am most accurate at. Then I would do the vertical line.

You are not only setting the center shot of your bow, you are finding the exact spot where the arrow spines out for your set up. Heck you may find your arrows are underspined or overspined. Vic Berger had a wonderful set of instructions for a finger shooter but it still applies to a release shooter. Paper tunning is a waste of time for me. All it tells me is that the arrow is leaving the bow ok. It doesnt tell me what the arrow is doing down range, which is very important to me.

But before I take the time to set up my bow, right out of the box. I take the bow apart and check everything. Grease it up, put the cables and string to spec or build me another set. Shoot the bow about 500 shots, time the cams etc. Then and only then will I take the time to tune the bow. I dont like to do things twice. Oh more thing that most folks dont think about. After you set your level with or without your cante adjustment, lay a small level on your arrow rest while the bow is still on the bow vise. Make sure your arrow wire rest or prongs are level to your scope level or you will still have left and right impacts. Making you go nuts trying to set your rest on a vertical line. Ever wonder why one prong or wire shows more wear than the other? I call this my 4th axis adjustment.

You can take it for what its worth and use the knowledge that has been passed on or blow it off and tear it apart. It dont really matter to me. It just makes guys that try to help other archers not post anymore.  

Charlie


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## Jhorne

Great post Bowbender. John


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## MNmike

zenarch said:


> I still say nonsense. If the arrow you shot at 20 yds was allowed to pass through the spot and continue downrange to a target at 60 yds, placed on the same line as the 20 yd target, it would hit center of the spot at 60 as well. If it went from point A (the bow), to point B (the 20 yd spot) how can it change direction and miss point C (the 60 yd target). If you mis-adjust your centershot puposely and use your windage adjustment to bring you back into the center of the spot again, you should also hit the 60 yd spot downrange.
> I say if your sight level is correct the centershot adjustment is not critical. Eyeball it in to where you like it and leave it.
> Nice shooting though. Why aren't you out there making some money if you can group like that at 60 yds repeatedly?
> Joe B.


Exactly, the arrow will go in a straight line, but it may not be flying straight. But that line is not straight with the line made by the string if there was no side forces. That is where the problem is, where you get to or away from center with the arrows path.

Lets say you eyeball your rest. Shoot a target at 20 yards and set your sight for that spot. If your center shot (rest placement) is off, when you move to 40 yards and use the same pin and target you will be off. The arrow is not coming off the bow with the natural center of the strings path. Your basicly trying to push the arrow off it's path with the rest. This is also what you see with paper tuning. What happens is interfered arrow flight.


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## loujo61

bowbender1 said:


> I have followed the other thread and just went over this one. Bow Zo has done a great job!! I have been doing walk back tuneing for a better part of 20 years. It has helped me when I shot fingers and now as I shoot a release.
> 
> Lets say that your sight bar and level are all squared up and the sight bar adjusted for your cante. This should be set before any tunning has started. My next step would be to to set a 1 inch engineers tape horizontal and set my nocking point at the yardage that I am most accurate at. Then I would do the vertical line.
> 
> You are not only setting the center shot of your bow, you are finding the exact spot where the arrow spines out for your set up. Heck you may find your arrows are underspined or overspined. Vic Berger had a wonderful set of instructions for a finger shooter but it still applies to a release shooter. Paper tunning is a waste of time for me. All it tells me is that the arrow is leaving the bow ok. It doesnt tell me what the arrow is doing down range, which is very important to me.
> 
> But before I take the time to set up my bow, right out of the box. I take the bow apart and check everything. Grease it up, put the cables and string to spec or build me another set. Shoot the bow about 500 shots, time the cams etc. Then and only then will I take the time to tune the bow. I dont like to do things twice. Oh more thing that most folks dont think about. After you set your level with or without your cante adjustment, lay a small level on your arrow rest while the bow is still on the bow vise. Make sure your arrow wire rest or prongs are level to your scope level or you will still have left and right impacts. Making you go nuts trying to set your rest on a vertical line. Ever wonder why one prong or wire shows more wear than the other? I call this my 4th axis adjustment.
> 
> You can take it for what its worth and use the knowledge that has been passed on or blow it off and tear it apart. It dont really matter to me. It just makes guys that try to help other archers not post anymore.
> 
> Charlie


I'll take it-that says it it all! Thanks for the help


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## MNmike

*walk back*

If I have this right, walk back would only tune the center shot for vertical placement. Am I correct for assuming this?

Where paper tune detects vert. and horiz. misalignment.


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## MNmike

*I mean....*



Mike Ryan said:


> If I have this right, walk back would only tune the center shot for vertical placement. Am I correct for assuming this?
> 
> Where paper tune detects vert. and horiz. misalignment.



Walk back does left/right horiz. and paper tune does both.


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## TCR1

Paper doesn't show quite as well as the walk back method. You can do vertical adjustments using a horizontal line. Not sure how that works exactly, but I have heard of it. Someone more enligtened than my slefy will help you with that.


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## ex-NFO

zenarch said:


> I still say nonsense. If the arrow you shot at 20 yds was allowed to pass through the spot and continue downrange to a target at 60 yds, placed on the same line as the 20 yd target, it would hit center of the spot at 60 as well. If it went from point A (the bow), to point B (the 20 yd spot) how can it change direction and miss point C (the 60 yd target). If you mis-adjust your centershot puposely and use your windage adjustment to bring you back into the center of the spot again, you should also hit the 60 yd spot downrange.
> I say if your sight level is correct the centershot adjustment is not critical. Eyeball it in to where you like it and leave it.
> Nice shooting though. Why aren't you out there making some money if you can group like that at 60 yds repeatedly?
> Joe B.


Your centershot could be off to the left a couple of degrees, and compensated for with the sight. The arrow will be off the line to the left more at 40 yards, and even more at 60 yards. If you're shooting a field round to 80 yards, correct rest placement is critical, and not by eyeballing either. I've found, for example, that if your arrows are too stiff, your rest will need to be slightly to the right of true center to compensate.

I really like the idea of the hanging the string from the 20 yard arrow to aim at. Funny how it also seems to be easier to get better groups when you're aiming at a tiny string, than a big x-ring.


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## MNmike

*string idea*

That is alot easier than drawing aline or masking tape.


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## zenarch

Guys,
I've done some testing on this and I'm able to mis-adjust my centershot, correct with windage on the sight at 20 yds and hit the line at longer distances. 
I doub the idea of the arrow hitting the spot at 20 yds but not traveling straight when it hits.If it hasn't straightened up at 20 yds, your bow needs some work. The arrow still follows a straight path anyway even if it's not flying well. It may swing from left to right but the main result is a 0 deviation from the straight line.
I need someone to explain how the arrow hits dead center at 20 yds and then mysteriously changes it's path to a different line heading toward the 40 yd target. The only thing I can think of is that you're not really right at 20 yds.
I do agree that an initial kick can cause a miss at short yardage but once the arrow has recovered and is going straight it's path is set till it hits the ground.
It's an interesting thread though and kind of fits in with Old Pro's 4th axis thread. Thanks for contributing your ideas.
I also think that Bow-Zo aims at the spot at all distances and not at the string. The string is there just to show you the results. Aiming at a vertical line is helpful, however, when adjusting your windage at any distance.
Joe B.


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## ex-NFO

If your rest is off where it should based on centershot and arrow spine, you can shoot an arrow at 10 yards and hit the target. Move back to 20 yards, and without changing your sight, shoot at the same target. Repeat at 30 and 40 yards. You will see the arrow progressively hitting farther and farther to one side. The arrow isn't changing direction, it's flying in a straight line, just not the one you want. It's not traveling in a straight line in the same plane as your bow.

Try moving your rest to the left a quarter inch. I'll bet you can adjust your sight so that arrow will hit the x at 20 yards. Then, without adjusting your sight, move back to 60 yards and shoot at the same target. I'll bet you will hit well left of the line on the first post.


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## 963369

Joe, it looks to me that the eyeball/laser BASIC adjustment for L/R Center tune is a rough idea. After I set my pin close to where I need to in alignment with the string, I then play with L/R until I group 3 arrows at 20 yds w/in a one inch circle on my pin. THEN move back to 30, then 40, tuning along the way. This eliminates MICROSCOPIC offset in the rest in terms of left/right. As we move back, small errors are magnified, and that is why a very petit nuance at 20 yards assumes major "how come that's over there" issues at longer yardages. I probably did NOT do a good job of explanation, but that's the gist of it. One thing to consider: sound. A bow whose center tune is correct, along with nock height correctness WILL shoot much more quietly. I think, zany as it may sound at first blush, that a measure of decibels would be very interesting! Oh, yeah....why ain't nobody built a centershot tool that accounts for the ends of the two axles? That would/could be measured by crossing over top left/bottom right and top right/bottom left "strings/lines. Automatically get true dead center nock height and centershot with one swell "foop?"


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## MNmike

*really see it..*

when performing the walk back using fixed blade BH's.

IMO if you have spun and tuned BH's, you can W.B. tune easier because the fixed blade magnifies the off center even more.


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## Deezlin

Mike Ryan said:


> If I have this right, walk back would only tune the center shot for vertical placement. Am I correct for assuming this?
> 
> Where paper tune detects vert. and horiz. misalignment.


Actually, you can walk back tune for horizontal as well. Read Easton Tuning Guide sometime. It works. Also I usually start by moving my sight bar in and out while shooting level. this will help your third axis adjustment.


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## MNmike

*I'll read it*

But I've read some of it only once before.

I'd have to read it Like 5 times to get it all in.


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## bowbender1

Every arrow when shot out of a bow etc. will oscillate all they way till it impacts on the target. So all shafts have different frequencies at different ranges for a rated poundage. Thus the arrow spine for a certine poundage. Or as some may call it "arrow nodes". Some my understand it better by saying " vibration".



Have a Great Fourth Folks, stay safe.


Charlie


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## Jabwa

Zenarch:

Ever look where your arrow is lined up in comparison to the sight when at full draw? If it is not on the same line as the sight/peep, then how can it hit the center at both 20 and 80 yards? Try setting both your front and back rifle sights an inch to the left of the center of the barrel and see what happens.


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## francis

ttt


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## corpsemaker

*Combining both paper tuning and walk back method*

Nice thread. I believe combining both methods will work well for me.This year will be my first try at the "walk back tuning method". I will paper tune first and then use the walk back tuning method. I am curious if it will improve my arrow flight and groupings. Corpse


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## mtboho

*so you are walkiing back*

and notice you are slowly drifting to the right, do you move your rest ever so slightly to the left??? and what if your sight is not machined correctly???? Or what if you have a sloppy channel on your sight like Copper Johns does??? would you move the sight to correct this and then go for the broadhead test. It seemed like it was so simple to just papertune, but know I doubt it because of all the threads about it. I would have to say I have had to be careful to try out alot of different broadheads before I could get real good fliers. Magnus stingers excelled in that area though. Wow I never knew how complicated archery really was!!!! Actually if I would of just stuck with the system I had that worked well and killed all I pointed at very accurately, If I would of just kept off of this magnificent sight and left well enough alone, I would be alot richer money wise and time wise.... LOL


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## zenarch

Jabwa,
Due to the bow torque caused by the cable guard, most of the time the sight may not line up with the arrow at full draw. If you're not hitting the center at 80 yds, I think you can correct with the sight windage or the center shot adjustment to put you there. Messing with the center shot after you've set your bow up to shoot bullet holes, can mess with your flight. 
Try this. Get your sight level correct (see the posts by Oldpro), get your paper tear the way you want it, using nocking point and centershot adjustments, then go directly to the 80yd shot and use your windage adjustment to put you in the middle. Now go to 20 yds and using your 20 yd mark, see if you're still shooting in the middle. Let us know how you make out.
I hope I haven't offended anyone with my posts about walk back. It's just my theory and you are certainly free to use what works for you. My only object here is to try to simplify the number of tuning stages it is necessary to go through.
Joe B.


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## francis

Joe, 

I see what your saying, and it makes sense, its better to adjust the windage to get the line of your arrow path to hit in the center all the way down the range, and not mess with your centershot once it is set up for best groups.

However what do you think about the 4th axis concept?
when in your opinion does the 4th axis come into play, only when changing the position of your sight extension bar length?

what you are saying by adjusting the windage , seems to be the same as what oldpro is saying, however he doesnt change the windage, instead he adjusts the 4th axis on the sight to arrive to the same result, the only extra advantage I see though by using the 4th axis over the windage to adjust for this, is that you will still be spot on if you change your extension length setting for some reason .

what do you think?

Francis


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## raiderjay99

*Walk back*

At 10 - 20 yards, your rest can be off quite a bit and you can compensate for this with sight adjustment. I have robin hooded arrows at 20 yards while sighting in and moved back to 30 and been off to one side or the other and readjusted windage and went back to 20 and still right on. Move back to 30, right on. Go to 40 and be off the same direction I was at 30. Make small adjustment and think, poop, now I'm gonna be off at 20, but nope still on. I kept doing this with 5 different bows between myself and my wifes out to 100 yards on mine and 50 yards on hers every single time we would change something on our bows. Every time the same. I was always adjusting for the rest with the sight. I didn't know until joining this site. I can't believe all the time I wasted sighting in. We hardly ever shot for fun because we were always sighting in. The walkback method fixed that so fast. I think your arrow is moving so fast you can be off at long range and on at short range. I know from rifles that you can sight in perfectly at 25 yards you think and be off at 100, but when you adjust for windage at 100 you are still on at 25. Depending on arrow speed, !/4" off at 10 yards can be over a foot off at long range. The bullseye is big and just because you put three arrows in it at 20 yards doesn't necessarily mean you are right on. :smile:


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## zenarch

Francis,
IMHO the 4th axis, as Oldpro describes it is for real. It will only have an effect when you're not shooting on level ground. This is true for the third axis as well. Study the thread by Oldpro and work on it in your mind until you have it.
The sliding of the sight in and out is just a tool to help you get your sight extension parallel with the PATH OF THE ARROW. If you shoot really well you can make the same adjustment going from level ground to either an uphill or a downhill shot. You don't have to do both, since if yu're OK going uphill, your downhill will be good too.
It's a difficult concept to grasp and there's been a lot of opinions both pro and con. With today's cable guard bows, everything looks out of whack when you go to full draw and the only way to determine if your site extension is parallel is to shoot it. If you can be on target sliding the sight in and out, you've proven it's in line with your arrow path.
Hope this helps.
Joe B.


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## francis

zenarch

ok now i am confused lol 
I reviewed the 4th axis and I dont see how it relates to up or downhill?
I can only see third axis for this

Also the way I see it is if you did adjust the 4th so the sight follows the arrow path you should not need to ajust your windage to keep things in line downrange. as far as i can see this is what the 4th was designed for, also ,if you needed to slide your extension in to reach 90 meters for example, you will have no worries about impact change if your sight is adjusted to the arrow path by the 4th axis.
But i am really confused on how keeping the sight in line with the arrow path has anything to do woth the 4th axis ( and I thought I was getting this stuff all figured out!)


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## Bow-zo

*Yahoooo!*

Hi guys, Glad to see I stird the pot a little. I have seen post in the past about the walk back method that is why I started this one.

I have seen Joe B. (I love your releases by the way. thats is what shoots those fine groups) talk down the method and that is O.K. but you know the old adage "The proof is in the pudding" well here the proof is in the pics. 
If you look at the cardboard real good you will see all the other holes made during the adjustment process. The holes half way up the cardboard are from shooting from 40 yd. Most are to the left of the string. There are two touching the string one on each side that was shot after making some adjustments. I then walked back to 60 and you can see the holes to the left. I shot 6 arrows all left. moved the rest to the right went back and zeroed @ 20 hung the string walked back to 60 and shot 6 more. Now all to the right. I moved the rest back only half the distance I originally moved it. Zeroed at 20 (by the way every time I went back up to 20 it was "NOT" in the center) I walked back to 60 and shot 6 all on the string or very close.
Now! If the walk back is nonsense explain what tuning I just accomplished and we will all learn something. Maybe this style of tuning is known by another name? Non the less it works on every bow I have ever tuned and for me it is the fastest and easyest way. Much faster and less frustrating than paper. I have not paper tuned in years. You can see in less then 30 shots my bow is ready. And that is less then 30 shots total. You see I group tune and set my center shot at the same time. Look again at the cardboard. If you notice the holes to the left and right are not near as tight a group as the ones right on the string. How many on here can do that paper tuning? A few I am sure..but?
Frankly I can not see how anyone that has tried zeroing at 20 and than shot from 40,50 or 60 yds. with their 20 yard pin does not get left or right groups unless they got lucky setting the center shot on the first try. You can not move your rest an inch out of line with the string and simply move the sight to bring it back to center and have your arrows fall in a straight line. They will fall in the line they are shot from but not in a straight vertical line from top to bottom. I have tried to sight in from 80yds. without doing the walk back first and my arrows are way off when I go to 20. All I did before I learned the walk back method was as raiderjay expressed..constantly moving my sight from up close to far away..back & forth. Since I started tuning with the walkback I never touch my windage screw again. With archers advantage I get a 80yd. mark and a 20 yd. mark and I am all set the tuning is done. It is nothing but practice my back tension from then on out.

Joe.. do not worry about affending anyone. That is what makes this board so great. All the opinions and things archers do to get their stuff shooting.
I think where we differ is due to you paper tune to get center shot and I do not. As I have said in many pass post Paper tuning is "nonsense" for the average archer. Much too frustrating..just read the past post on the subject. You mention removing needless steps in tuning..well I just removed several...LOL!

I do not get into many money shoots but I keep all the locals on their toes.
I am in the "over 50 class" like you..LOL!

Have fun guys..it's just a game! Dave!


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## francis

bo zone

try what Joe said i wonder if it works, what he is saying I believe is shoot at 20 ( sight zeroed in ),then shoot at 80 lets say, now lets assume you are off quite a bit.

then move your sight windage so your in the middle at 80, then go back to 20 and shoot, you should still be in the middle at 20 

if this works what does this show you then?

that the same results were acheived by moving the windage as what was done by moving the rest


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## francis

Joe

with all this being said

would you at least agree that the walk back method in conjuction with moving the arrow rest, may be the best way to acheive perfect centershot?

Then take the fine tuning from there?

i am just thinking adjusting the rest may be the best way to at lest find centershot


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## Bow-zo

*Not for me!*

No francis It will not work if the center shot is not right. I wish it could be so easy. If you read the the bottom section of my post you will see I tried that all ready many years ago. All you will do is wareout your windage screw.

Think about it.. if you are dead on at 20 yards and go all the way back to 80 and move the sight how is it now "not" off at 20??? If you are on at any distance and then move the sight how does it "STAY" on. It is "ON' or it is "OFF". 
All I can say is it takes much less sight movement to move two inches @ 80 then it does at 20. I think the average archer can not shoot well enough to see they are really off at 20 and do not know it. If you can not hit a quarter 8 out of ten shots from 20 yard you will not see much change.
My scope will move two inches with just two clicks (.004) at 80 yds. By the same token two clicks at 20 I would not even notice. Two inches @ 20 would take a full rotation or more and that would put my 80 off the target. 
That is why the walk back is so much better than Paper for center shot. Once the arrows hit the string from every distance you are done. Do not go back and paper shoot and start moving the rest again. If you move it you are no longer on the string and that is where you need to be no matter what the paper says. Trust me I do not shoot groups like that "without paper tuning"
just by chance. 

By the way I shoot X cams so cable rod torque is not a issue. There is a old story in achery focus about moving your sight bar in and out to compensate for grip torque. Very interesting reading. With the bow torqued a considerable amount "on purpose by hand" the arrow will still go into the group. 
Have fun..Dave!


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## francis

interesting

makes sense

just help me out here for a sec

do you agree with joe at least that no matter where your center shot is set, once the arrow is fired it travels in a straight line forever until it hits the ground? ( we make the assumption that the arrow does not change its path once in flight)

if we agree on this, doesnt it stand to reason that we need only to change the windage then to get the arrow path lined up to where we want it?

i am assuming you believe the arrow may actually change path somewhere down the line once shot correct?

I see both points of view, this is confusing :sad:


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## francis

bo zo

actually 


i just thought of something, first you agree that moving the rest does change the point of impact of the arrow right?
As you said , if you are dead on at 20, then move your sight at 80 to be dead on, you say your 20 mark must have moved some amount, as small as it may be, ok I get that

But here is what i am thinking, if moving your arrow rest changes arrow impact, which it appears it does, then once you are dialed in at 20, shoot at 80, now move your arrow rest to get dead on at 80, didnt you just mess up your 20 mark now the same as if you had moved the windage?


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## Bow-zo

Francis, Francis..if you read the post again you will see the sight had to be rezeroed at 20 before walking back to 60. After you make a rest adjustment you always have to rezero at 20. If you move the rest to the right the arrow will go right at all yardages so you have to move the sight to the right also to bring the arrow back left to center. What you are doing in effect is lining up the sight, arrow, string, grip center, release aid, shooting eye all parts involved in a straight line. If the rest and sight are not in this line.. the line will not be straight and the arrows will not hit the string. Picture your bow at full draw without you holding it and you standing behind it. Picture it with the sight and rest off to one side out of the line? That is where joe says it will still shoot straight???


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## Bow-zo

*Sight plane!*

Francis, I think this will help clear it up. I do not think the arrow changes course once in flight.
Picture standing behind the bow with the rest too far left. Now the sight will have to be too far left to bring it back center.
When you look through the peep and at the sight the "line of sight" from your eye is straight to the target "And straight down the string I hung on the arrow" but the arrow is pointing left of this "line of sight". If you could see it from over head the sight and arrow shaft would be pointing in one direction while the bow is actually pointing in another. (hold your bow up in front of you and imagine the rest 3 or 4 inches left.. how far right you would have to crank the bow to point at the target) The arrow "pivots" on the string at the back end (the nock) it does not move with the rest. The nock would have to move to stay in line for joe's theory to work.
Now when you shoot the arrow will be farther off course the farther back you go. If you drew a line from the nock down the shaft to the point and on down range the line would be well left of the target. When shot It will fall in a straight line as joe said but "off target". In this condition the bow can only be sighted in for one distance and one distance only and that is where the "line of sight" and the arrows line down range cross each other.
It is simple..if the arrow is on one plane and the sight is on another they will not land at the same airport will they? LOL!
What the walk back method does is get these parts all in the same plane flying to the same and landing at the same airport.

Hope this clears the "air-ohs" If not lets go golf'in! Dave!


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## Jhorne

Bow-zo, What do you do to find your correct nocking point?


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## Jhorne

ttt


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## Bow-zo

*nocking point!*

Hi Jhorne, I use a vise to start. I set the bow up in the vise with a level on the string. After adjusting the bow so the string is straight up and down or 90 degrees (two cam bows). I then put a arrow on the string, line it up so the bottom of the shaft is even with the botton of the burger hole. Then depending on the rest I either set the nock so the arrow is 90 degrees to the string or slightly nock high. My hunting bows are always nock high.
I go do the creep tuning first to be sure the cams are right then the walk back. I very seldom if at all ever have to make any changes to anything other than the sight. I start sighting in and group tune at the same time.
My group tuning is actually arrow tuning. Turning nocks and such to make the smallest groups.
Hope some of this helps..Dave!


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## ex-NFO

francis said:


> if we agree on this, doesnt it stand to reason that we need only to change the windage then to get the arrow path lined up to where we want it?


Nope. Then you'll be on at 80 and off at 20 vs. on at 20 and off at 80.




francis said:


> But here is what i am thinking, if moving your arrow rest changes arrow impact, which it appears it does, then once you are dialed in at 20, shoot at 80, now move your arrow rest to get dead on at 80, didnt you just mess up your 20 mark now the same as if you had moved the windage?


The idea is to get both 20 and 80 hitting in the same left-right line. THEN you move your sight to adjust once.

I just walk-back tuned my Razor-X after adjusting my rest down a little for groups, and now I'm on at 80 yards all the way down to 20 ft.



Jhorne said:


> Bow-zo, What do you do to find your correct nocking point?


I start at 1/4" nock high, and start shooting at a horizontal line at 40 yards. Look at the amount of up-down variation from the line. Then make a very small rest adjustment down, and shoot another group, and repeat. The group should get very small at some point, and then start to get bigger as you continue to make adjustments. If not, go back to the initial point, and do the same thing adjusting the rest upwards. You're looking for the rest position where your arrows group the best.


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## Bow-zo

*Tiller tune!*

That way works also Martineer but tiller tuning is much faster. All tiller tuning does is move the nock up and down in very small amounts. Something i forgot to mention in my reply to jhorne. Thanks for the comments. 
have fun..Dave!


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## bowbender1

Gees, I guess no one believes us. There is an artical in Archery Focus about this same thing and it is writen by George Champman.If you folks have an online subscription do a search of super tunning your bow. I think thats what it was. This artical will set this thread to rest by educating all of us.

Charlie


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## bowhunter0916

*How do you...*

How do you get center shot to start this process without paper tuning? My sight is about a 1/4" to one side of the arrow when I look down the shaft with the rest in the up position. It shoots bullet holes through paper and shoots the same line back to 40 yards. I cant shoot farther than that at home. What are you using to aim if not your sight when starting this process?


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## bowbender7

francis said:


> bo zone
> 
> try what Joe said i wonder if it works, what he is saying I believe is shoot at 20 ( sight zeroed in ),then shoot at 80 lets say, now lets assume you are off quite a bit.
> 
> then move your sight windage so your in the middle at 80, then go back to 20 and shoot, you should still be in the middle at 20
> 
> if this works what does this show you then?
> 
> that the same results were acheived by moving the windage as what was done by moving the rest



Yes Francis, this is what Joe is trying to say.

What some people are not realizing is that if you take a bow that you have set up to shoot the middle at all ranges and pull your sight in or out a few clicks and move back - your groups will move farther away from the string the further back you go. The easy way to fix this is by returning those couple click back in your windage.

It really does equate to adjusting your rest to center when setting your windage right does the exact same thing. Only more quickly.


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## francis

bow zo 
I think I can see what your saying

do you think the way you do your walkback actually finds the true center.....or do you actually arrive instead (or both maybe) as having the arrow path lined up with the sight path ( old pros 4th axis concept)


Just wondering what you think, what do you think of the 4th axis , does it play a role and if so when ? Before or after the walk back tuning?

Picture this..... lets say the sight extension is bent to the right a little.
Now you go shoot and do the walkback tuning, coming back to 20 and resighting again , repeating the process until everything looks great down the line........now did we just tune the arrow so it follows down the center of the string travel, or did we tune the arrow flight path until it was parallel with our sight ?


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## THE FISH

*Up All Night*

Thanks guys. I'm no bow setup guru, but I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy. Now I'm going to be up all night, with protractor in hand, figuring this all out. And when the sun comes up, I will try this walk back thing out, if it seems to work on paper. I will let you know if it works for me or not. I am pretty new to archery so I have no predetermined bias. But I feel I can shoot well enough to come to an honest conclusion.


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## JAVI

No matter what method of tuning you prefer…. Someone will always disagree with it….

I say try it… if it don’t help then scrap it…. 

But don’t put it down; it might work very well for someone else…. 


After all none of this stuff including Walk-back tuning is NEW… it’s been around for many years, so someone thought it worked….


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## francis

bowbender7

I was totaly on Joes line of thinking until Bo zo mentioned that if you are already dialed in perfectly at 20 then adjust the windage out at 80 , that would have to make your 20 mark not as "perfect" now, which made me think maybe there is a better or more "correct" way of doing things ? i dont know i have a headache now anyway so I need to forget this stuff for a while LOL


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## Bow-zo

*Old tricks for new dogs.*

Javi is right on. Very few tuning methods are new. Paper being one of the oldest and for good reason. IMHO not needed any more. Some just love to do it and swear by it so it will stay awhile longer.
Walk Back formally known as the plumb bob method is an old method also. Works much faster than paper to find center shot. It is more reliable also due to average archers can not get the same results day after day with paper.
You can see the results immediately as you shoot,check grouping and when done your 20 yd pin is dead on. Now just zero the rest of your pins and you are ready for 3-D, hunting or what ever type of archery you are into. Most people that paper tune tune for weeks and still are not sure where they are??? Much less what to do next. Then they have to go out and shoot targets to see if they did themself any good. AHH..Heck this thing groups like crap!! Let me go back and paper tune some more. Ha! Ha! Sound familiar anyone?
Anyway enough of my rattling on here. Bottom line.. if it works for ya, use it. If it don't then don't.

P.S. I have some pics of long distance groups I shot since tuning this bow. I will put some of them up tomorrow. 

Have fun guys! Dave!


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## ex-NFO

Bow-zo said:


> That way works also Martineer but tiller tuning is much faster. All tiller tuning does is move the nock up and down in very small amounts. Something i forgot to mention in my reply to jhorne. Thanks for the comments.
> have fun..Dave!


Good point, but my top limb is cranked all the way down. If I bring my bottom limb out, I don't have any room to bring my top limb in. I shoot the draw weight I do because of shoulder problems.


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## Papick

Bow-zo said:


> Javi is right on. Very few tuning methods are new. Paper being one of the oldest and for good reason. IMHO not needed any more. Some just love to do it and swear by it so it will stay awhile longer.
> Walk Back formally known as the plumb bob method is an old method also. Works much faster than paper to find center shot. It is more reliable also due to average archers can not get the same results day after day with paper.
> You can see the results immediately as you shoot,check grouping and when done your 20 yd pin is dead on. Now just zero the rest of your pins and you are ready for 3-D, hunting or what ever type of archery you are into. Most people that paper tune tune for weeks and still are not sure where they are??? Much less what to do next. Then they have to go out and shoot targets to see if they did themself any good. AHH..Heck this thing groups like crap!! Let me go back and paper tune some more. Ha! Ha! Sound familiar anyone?
> Anyway enough of my rattling on here. Bottom line.. if it works for ya, use it. If it don't then don't.
> 
> P.S. I have some pics of long distance groups I shot since tuning this bow. I will put some of them up tomorrow.
> 
> Have fun guys! Dave!


Dave,
plumb bob method, this is it!!!! So simple and true, I plotted all this on paper and this all makes sense mechanically.
See I am a toolmaker/mold maker/designer and every thought goes thru mathematical, engineering analysis for me. I have been reding thru all this thread, lots of opinions makes sense and confirms the same thing but only described in a different way.
I am new to archery and am only starting to decipher today's compound bow and only starting to get down to what needs to be done to decently tune my bow, but have not succeeded yet!!!! 
Any tuning method to my opinion will need fine tuning and may or may not work 100% for everyone, for instance anything built by human beings cannot be identical or perform identically if you know what I mean, look at cars is there such thing as 2 identical cars , even if they came out of the same production line, same day, same tools, same brand and make... 
Never!! Now put a human being behind the wheel... it gets worse!!!
Facinating!!!


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## zenarch

Francis,
I'm sorry I didn't reply to your question about the 4th axis tuning yet. I've been trying to come up with the simplest method of explaining it and when I get it right I'll post it. It has nothing to do with the walkback tuning method though, which is done on level ground. The 4th axis thing is an uphill/downhill leveling issue. On flat ground the 3rd and 4th axis effect is small. Stick with this thread and you'll get it all straight with the input from everyone. You'll have to decide what makes sense and what doesn't and test it yourself though.
Bow-zo,
I'm working on some stick drawings to try to illustrate what I'm saying. Again, when I get them right I'll post them for comments from all. My original replies did generate a nasty PM from a member though and that's why I wanted to know if I was stepping on any toes.
My only other question is about the arrow drop in your pic. It looks to be about 3 ft. If I do the test, I'm in the dirt at 60. AA shows a 7 ft drop for my Conquest, shooting at 271 fps. I built a theoretical bow with AA to shoot 350 fps and it had a drop of 4 ft from 20 to 60 yds.
Joe B


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## Bow-zo

*Good deal Joe!*

Good day Joe,
Sorry to hear about the nasty PM's. I get them too. Some people just do not appreciate the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to criticize and I respect that. I think any and all should be encouraged to comment "IF" you have something to contribute. But to make pithy comments because of your opinion is not right and shows a great lack of respect for not only the one making the comments but the person that started the thread and needs help.
We all have ideas and opinions on what works for us and that is what makes this forum so great is the willingness for others to share that info.
Some feel the need to jump in with their own ideas and opinions on what has worked for them and that is great. But yet other only want to criticize something you said without adding why they think differantly. The funny part is most of them are wrong in their thinking anyway. And as said earlier in a post, It makes others not want to help or comment at all. If you try something  and it works who can say it was wrong.
Anyway I will get down off my soap bax and get back to "Archers helping Archers" 

Now about my pic! the target butt is 5ft tall so the drop is about 4ft. (I did not measure it) I will double check my notes but that is all beside the point of the arrows did not hit the string untill I moved the rest in line with the other pertinent parts. I have done this walk back thing a thousand times and if I do not move the rest then I am either on at 20 and off everywhere else or on at 80 and off everywhere else.
Picture a string running thru the peep down to the sight pin and all the way to the target. Why would you not have the rest with a arrow on it any where but following that string line?

Here is a pic of my target bow results. Actually the same results.
Look close it is differant fletching. Martin furyX Scepter II 4X scope and Zenith release w/ Carbon Express Medallion 500 100gr.point
Sorry..I forgot to rotate the pic before uploading.

The original pic was my short AtoA hunting rig with feather fletching and field points. Spott Hogg sight and trigger release.

The second pic is a 80yd group I shot last Sunday evening after finishing the tuning on this bow.
I can not argue with these kind of results. If your groups do not look like these..Maybe you are not "WALKING BACK" LOL!

Have fun guys..It is just a game.....Dave


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## Jerry/NJ

zenarch said:


> Francis,
> My original replies did generate a nasty PM from a member though and that's why I wanted to know if I was stepping on any toes.
> Joe B


Joe, you have got to be kidding! Someone actually sent you a nasty gram??? That is pathetic ! :thumbs_do 

Anyhow.....are you all just taking this as your fisrt step in tuning and then you go on to tune your broadheads? And how do you go about tuning your BH's? Interesting thread as I have followed it from the beginning and thanx for sharing. :thumbs_up


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## bowbender1

Outstanding Bow-Zo !!


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## francis

:smile: 
threads like this is why i keep coming back to this site! 

Thanks guys


Joe

I totally see what your saying about the 4th axis now, I can picture it the same as i picture the third axis
I may be wrong but if you go back and read oldpros threads he is also saying that the 4 th axis tuning was designed to align the sight with the arrow path so you hit in the middle all the way downrange on LEVEL ground as well.

Bow Zo

Do you ever tune with the goal of seeing if your spine is right on, and adjusting for it?
I have heard many say thet they adjust poundage arrow length etc... depending on whether the arrows go left or right to get the best matched spine
I am just wondering if you do this, HOW you would do it, and WHEN-before or after your walkback tuning?

I only ask because its hard to picture which tuning to do first, if you finish the walkback tuning and evrything is already in line, how do you view left and right issues to clue in on weak or heavy spine?

Also vice versa, if you adjust for spine based on right and left drift ( like Jim despart recommends) how do you not know it was only the walk back tuning that was needed?

I recall Jim Despart saying to set the arrow rest for perfect centershot first, then fine tune for arrow spine based on left and right drift, but if you did it this way how would you know if your centershot was set correct for sure before you started spine tuning?

Any comments on this, or from any one else as well!?


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## francis

oh and one more thing
I am still wondering if the end result of walback tuning actually puts the arrow directly in center of the string path, or does it end up putting the arrow in line with the sight path, and it just ends up being in the center of the bow when done because your sight is normally straight (lol) , and sqaure because how it is mounted on the machined surface of the bow to be that way


What if you went and bent your sight extension bar over to the right so it is not square with the bow any longer, then started the walkback tuning from here, in the end when your done tuning would the arrow end up in the middle of the bow ( in line with string travel, or would it end up parallel to the sight path instead?

Am I explaining this so you understand what I am seeing?
Probably not LOL


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## Bow-zo

*string path!*

Francis, the thing about bow tuning most do not understand is a bow has to be tuned to the shooter. When you tune a bow you are adjusting the center shot, the sight the cam timing or roll over the nock point ect. to the individual that is shooting that bow. It is most likely that if someone else picked up that same bow they could not hit the broadside of the barn.
Because everyone grips the handle different and anchors different and looks thru the peep different their release and follow thru are different. Every aspect of shooting is as different as finger prints. That is why you can not tune a bow in a machine and then go out a hit anything with it.
You can get it all close but the shooter has to make the finishing adjustments.
As I said before center shot is not necessarily in the same spot for all shooters. You may have to move it a small amount from where I would set it to compensate for the way you anchor and release the string. Cable gaurd torque and riser flex will effect it also. If you change arrow size or add draw weight to the bow the center shot could change.

Now to answer your ? I believe if you bent the sight bar to the right you would wind up adjusting the scope or pins back to the left to compensate for the bending. Or you would have to bend it back before you could hit anything. You see the center shot will not change no mater what you do to the sight. As I said before the back of the arrow pivots on the string and the rest is what guides it not the sight. So the arrow needs to be in the string path. How do you think bare bow shooters with no sight at all adjust their center shot.
Something that "MIGHT" help you understand the effects of adjusting the rest for center shot and not the sight is..loosen the screws or what ever you have that hold your rest so you can move it back and forth. Now nock a arrow with it resting on the rest push the rest back and forth and watch the tip of your arrow. Now if you are at full draw about to shoot where would you rather have the tip of your arrow. Pointing left..Pointing right..or right down the middle of the riser in a straight line to the target? As I said picture a string through the peep through the 40 yd pin and anchored to the center of the X. You want the arrow to follow the string right. There is only one place that will happen and you have to find it. Hence the walk back tuning. How far would you have to push the rest right or left to be 4 inches off at 40yds. I will tell you from making these adjustment hundreds of times. About the thinkness of a plastic vane. The adjustment I made in the original pic was about 1/32 and that was too much. I came back half of that or about 1/64th to put the arrows on the string.
Tell me something and don't get me wrong I love your ?'s they make me think of how and why I do the things I do. Are you really having trouble understanding how center shot works or are you just having fun keeping the pot stirred? Ha! Ha! LOL!  Anyway I enjoy trying to explain what I do and what works for me. I spent years with out any help and had to trial and error "EVERYTHING" believe me I got alot of bogus info. Spent months trying to get my bow to shoot. Stand in front of paper all day to get a bullet hole only to come back the next day and get a rip that looked like the arrow went through it sideways. Frustrating to say the least. If I help just one archer or save them from weeks or months of frustration it would be my pleasure.
Paper is a good tool but I believe it is for archers with good repeatable form that know exactly what to do when they get a particular tear. It is definitely is not for the beginner that has not a clue what to do when they see a rip right, left, up, down. Just read all the post on the subject.It is fun to play with you might learn something from it. The only thing I learned is there is a faster less frustrating way to tune your bow. It was origanally a tool for finger shooters to find the correct spine for their bow.
When I can shoot groups like the ones in my pics I could not give a "rip" about what kind a rip those arrows put in paper. That bow has never shot any paper other than paper targets at 20 or more yards. 
Maybe I just get lucky? But I think not.. not over and over again and again.
I do not paper tune..I see no need for it with todays modern bows and release aids, arrow construction and the like.
I have mentioned this in other theads. I have a Hooter Shooter and believe me when I tell ya.. I can not mess the tune up bad enough on a bow that it will still not shoot arrows into the same hole at 20 yds. and all be in a group the size of a quarter at 40. That tells you alot about the importance of form and repeatability on the shooters part not the importance of bow tuning.
I think I need to shut up now. I did not realize how bad I was rambling on here. Sorry guys!

Dave!


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## dsheally

Thank you Dave. I have been bowhunting for 25 years and when it comes to 
tuning I have been so frustrated at times I felt like giving it up. I used to
rely on paper tuning but gave it up about 5 years ago. I would get perfect
bullet holes only to go outside and watch my arrows fly badly or not group
well at all. I was told I was getting false readings through paper. Your 
type of tuning makes alot more sense and as soon as I get home from
work in the morning I am going to try it. I have enjoyed reading your 
posts, keep them coming. -Drew


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## paha1

*walk back*

Hey Bow-zo,I just got back from the range and my first try at walk back tuning.It works!Some where last night after reading this thread I seen a article and picture of a setup to start off this type of tune. It had a arrow shaft placed on the riser,with a rubber band, near an arrow on the rest.I did that,and there was a 1/4" difference at the end of the shaft.I moved the rest to make the measurement the same at the front and rear of both shafts. I shot a group at 20yds and hung a sting and weight on them,went back to 40yds and shot another group.My third arrow cut the string!I shot out to 60yds and the groups were centered, as well as I can hold.This was a timely thread,as I shot a 600 rd. last Sat. and noticed from 60 to 40 I had to keep changing the windage.Thanks for bringing this method to our attension. Warren


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## Jabwa

I think the word you guys need is "parallax". What you are getting rid of with the walk back method is the left/right parallax that exists because of cable guard torque, arrow spine being off slightly, handle torque, etc. It's the same as parallax on a scoped rifle due to the scope being above the barrel (line of bullet). 

By the way, if you have the perfect arrow spine for your setup, you will find you can move your arrow rest left or right a fair amount without affecting your bullet hole in the slightest. The same will be true if your arrow spine is way off also except that you won't have a bullet hole!

FOR WHATEVER REASON, WALK BACK TUNING WORKS! YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!


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## bowbender7

I suppose that rather than questioning the method, maybe I should just say that in all my years of setting up bows for myself and other people - I have never needed to do this.

Just lucky I guess.

Carry on guys. :tongue:


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## Bow-zo

*Never say never!*

It is not a question of "need". It is the option of use or do not use. if you want a unfrustrating way "without shooting paper" to tune your bow this is a option. It is very simple very fast and works for thousands that have trouble paper tuning.
I started this post to answer the many questions I see archers have about center shot and the walk back method vs paper tuning. This is only a alternative.
Dave!


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## bowbender7

Fair enough Bow Zo. For the record, I dont shoot through paper either :smile:


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## Southern Hunter

*walk Back Tuning*

Bow-Zo, I found walk back tuning on this forum about 4 monts ago. I tried paper tuning to no-avail and still had left / right problems. After reading about this I tried it and it's a simple way to tune your bow. everyone has their own opinion on how to tune a bow but for a person who is just starting out shooting a bow IMO this is the best method for them. It shows them the relationship between the rest, string, arrow and site on their bow and should make them more comfortable in doing minor adjustments. Keep up the good work and keep us posted on any new developments you come across. :shade: 
Pat Patterson
Southern Hunter


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## Bow-zo

*????*

Hey bowbender7, How have ya been?
Now you really have my curiosity up??
If you do not Walk back or paper tune "How" in the world "do" you set up??

I think you could post a very interesting thread so unless it is a family secret lets hear it.LOL!
Just kidding although I and I think others would like to hear your method.

dave!


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## bowbender7

I have messed with paper tuning and found that a bullethole does not necessarily yeild the least critical setup. So for me, paper tunings best value would be to check a tear after I have tuned a bow so that I could duplicate the same tear in the event of repairs os harness changes in order to maybe save a little time when re-setting that bow and shaft combination. Keep in mind I dont hunt anymore - all of my bow tuning is done with regards to target so I dont have the need to tune for broadhead flight.
The single item I play with the most when tuning (group tuning) a bow is the nock height. (I use the arrow rest to make adjustments here but the principle is the same). I generally just eyeball the center shot and proceed to shoot groups at at least 40 or 50 yds. If I see a fishtail in the arrow flight - I move the center shot until I have no side to side flight problems (fletch contact is big consideration here) Once I have the centershot set to where I believe its position is not adversely affecting flight I then proceed to move the rest up and down in very small increments noting a general nock height relationship that yieldsgood groups and effectively allows me to group even on less than perfect shots.

For my indoor bows I dont really spend that much time tuning. I spend more time getting the draw length just right via as little as one or two twists in the string. I have shot good scores indoors with way stiff shafts that bob and weave all the way to the target although I prefer nice looking arrow flight if nothing else, for those who might be watching.. Amazingly, they will hit the same spot everytime if I do my part. 
For my outdoor bows (Filed and FITA) I spend a good deal of time playing with slight nock height adjustments until I feel I have arraived at a setting that does not over penalize me for less than perfect shots.

I have never experienced an issue where I had impacts stringing left or right at further distances except once when I did not have my sight bar levelled to the bow it was mounted on. As a matter of fact, when I shot Martins with x cams I set up the centershot to line up right through the middle of the grip and left it.. On my Hoyts now, I just start with the arrow being on line with the stab and may make a slight adjustment either way if I see fishtailing that I know is not being caused by contact. Once I see good flight - I'm done with centershot.

This is nothing miraculous, but it has worked for me and allowed me to shoot some respectable scores. Plus, I dont fixate on that paper.  and use more of my time shooting instead of playing with it.

I will not negate or argue the benefits of the plumb bob method because I have never felt it necessary, but if it helps someone, somehow, then that is all that counts.


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## Bow-zo

*Thanks BB*

Thanks for the sharing. You know the only differants in the way you and I tune is the fact that I use the plumb bob to get my center shot and you do not. Once the center shot is set I adjust the tiller in and out one limb at a time to move the nock point up and down to find the best group. Once I am happy with that I measure where the nock is from 90 degrees reset the tiller to even and move the nock the the measured spot. Very simple, very fast and then I am out practicing my 80 to 100 yd. groups and getting sight marks to punch into A/A. You know that 80 + group shooting will tell you more than paper tears ever could.
To me shooting is the only way to get things right. I let my groups speak to me and not what a tear in the paper says. I like to use a digital camera to take a quick pic of all my practice targets. I can refer back to them and get a quick visual of what is going on when I make any changes. 
I did not always use the plumb bob. I just thought I would try it one day and it worked so well and made my tuning process so much faster I kept doing it. I like you would rather spend my time shooting and working on my back tension and form.(the road to good scores)
You can have the center shot set with just a few shots if you can shoot half way decent and if that is one of your targets in your avatar I would say you do well..walk back or not.
That is the problem for most archers they spend so much time trying to get bullet holes in paper they never have time to work on the other important aspects of archery.
Thanks Again Bowbender.. I for one appreciate your input.

Dave!


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## paha1

*tiller tune?*

OK Bow-zo, now you've done it!I tried your plumb bob method,and it worked for me.Now you throw out this tiller tune thing.You better splain yoself.Make it easy for my own self. THANKS Man,I live for this stuff! Warren


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## zenarch

Bowbender7
We're pretty close in the way we do things to set up the bow. First I set the centershot so that the arrow is bisected by the string when the string is sighted down the center of the limbs. The arrow can be dead center or slightly to the left of center. I then shoot through paper but only to get the nocking point height I want. I look for about a 1/4 to 3/8" high tear at about 6 ft. Then I go back to about 10 yds and check the tear which has increased to it's maximum size of about 3/4" high. Then I shoot from 15 yds and usually see a bullet hole or very close. I usually have some left in the tear too but no amount of movement of the centershot makes any change in that, so I don't mess with it. I then spray powder on the back of the arrow to check for vane clearance.
I'll set up my windage so I'm on at 30 yd and then shoot at 65 yd. If it's off, I'll take a few clicks to fine tune it but it's never enough to make a noticeable difference at 30 yd. I do think creep tuning to get the timing adjusted on a two cam bow works, but it's hard to make a good shot when you're trying to simulate a creep. Also, if you shoot a cam with a hard wall and no valley, it's almost impossible. I Usually will just try to minimize the vertical group size by twisting the cables up or down a half turn at a time. Now it's all up to me.
I'm still working on how to explain why I don't think a critical centershot adjustment is necessary. I thought I could draw it on paper but I'm not much good at that. First,I want to clear up a couple of things from some of the previous replies.
The plumb bob tuning once used had nothing to do with centershot adjustment. The bows in those days were not centershot and had no adjustment for it. The method was used as a shortcut to getting your sight bar plumbed. There were no sight levels so the normal method was to zero your windage at 20 yd while shooting the bow held vertically, then going to 80 yd, setting your sight to 80 and correcting any windage error by moving the bottom of the sight bar to the left or right, then going back to 20, etc. until your sight tracked. The plumb bob saves a lot of walking and gets the same results. You would hang a weighted string on the butt and from 10 yds shoot at it with your sight at 20, zero the windage and then move your sight to 80 and shoot at the string. Again, if you were off, you moved the bottom of the sight bar. When you could hit the string at both settings, your sight was considered plumb.
Come to think of it, I wonder how we ever shot those bows. They were nowhere near centershot and the arrow pointed way to the left but once you got your windage set and your sight level, they shot fine. Strange.
Second, the nock is not the pivot point of your line of aim. It's hard to say where it is exactly but I feel it's close to the vertical axis of your body. As you move your bow from left to right, your line of aim changes in an arc, both at the sight, at the arrow point and at the nock. Take a release with a long loop on it and draw your bow. Now swing from left to right and you'll find the nock end of the arrow swings in an arc too. This accentuates it but it's there even with your normal anchor, especially if you bisect your chin with the string.
I previously thought an adjustable centershot only needed to be set once and left alone but since thinking so much about this thing, I think it may indeed be a usefull adjustment but for a different reason.
More later.
Joe B.


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## Bow-zo

*Tiller?*

Hey Warren, Glad to hear you get some good use out of all this. Some have a hard time so I go to extremes sometimes to explain myself.
Anyway..tiller! I am sure you know what tiller is? The distance from the limb where it enters the limb pocket out to the string. 
Tiller tuning is nothing more than a very easy way to move your nock point up and down the string without taking the actual nock loose and sliding up or down. That takes too much time. So does moving the rest up and down to simulate nock moving.
Now I know I am going to catch alot of crap for this. Probably some nasty PM's..but! Some people (and archers) think turning just one limb bolt in makes that limb stiffer than the other. Well I am telling ya it does no such thing. The draw weight will go up but the limbs still have equal stiffness.
It changes the angle of the limb to the riser and thus the tiller (limb pocket to string) but the limb flex is the same on both limbs.
A compound bow is a closed system so if you bend one the string attached to the other side will bend it also. 
Now before anyone screams try a little test. With the bow on its side measure from the end of the limb where it enters the pocket out to the tip or to the center of the axle. Both should be equal. Tighten one limb bolt all the way and loosen the other. Measure again. The measurment may change but both should still be equal. Now just so you know for sure lay the bow on it side with one limb on a piece of cardboard and trace the limbs outline. Flip the bow over and put the other limb inside the traced line. They will be the same. I am sure some of you guys know this.
What I am trying to say Warren is you can tighten one limb bolt and it will pull your nock up or down very slightly ineffect adjusting your nock in a very quick manner. This will make your groups better or worse. If you shoot several groups at each setting you will find a sweet spot where the groups are the best. Only turn about one quarter of a turn at a time up to one full turn then turn it back to its original setting and turn the other. As with all group tuning shoot from a distance you are comfortable and can shoot a reasonably tight group to start with as it will be hard to tell if you are making progress if you try shooting from 60 or 80 yards if you can not shoot a good group from that distance to start with.
I measure where the nock is when I am done adjust the tiller back to even and then move the nock to the measured spot. You can leave the tiller as is if the bow is shooting really well it will not hurt a thing. You will just have a slightly differant draw weight then you did before.
After this step and your pins are all sighted in "creep tune" if you are shooting a two cam bow and you will be ready for the big time.
Hope this splains it fer ya warren..Have fun!

Dave!


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## Bow-zo

*Back again!*

Hey Joe, Glad to see ya back. I enjoy these discussions.
I know the plumb bob you are referring to. The walk back method when first started was also called the plumb bob method when referring to center shot adjustment. Everyone I hung with always said "Use the plumb bob to set yer center shot it is quick and will put ya right on.

Creep tuning can be difficult with some bows. I have found if it is difficult to creep forward and still make a good shot so I anchor normally and shoot a few and then pull hard into the wall instead of creeping forward it seems to work just as well. Although if you use a thumb trigger release instead of a pure back tension it is a little easier if you want to creep forward.

Critical center shot "may" not be critical for your style of shooting but it is very critical for me. I can not get the results I want without it. As I said in one of the previous post I started this thread to address the many that can not or have difficulty with the paper tuning that you use. I am sure you would agree that paper is not the only method to tune center shot as is not the walk back but it is a very viable alternative and more accurate but I respect and welcome yours or any other comments. That is what "Achery Talk" is all about.

I did not mean to say the nock is the pivot point for your line of aim. I was just trying to show how the arrow tip moves from side to side when moving the rest because it pivots at the nock. Do you not want the nock and the tip to be on the same path to the target? Do you not want the peep, the nock, the tip of the arrow and the sight pin all in a straight line to the target? If the rest is not in a straight line with the rest of your componants it will fly off to the side it is set to and not hit the string at the longer yardages. 
Anyway I have presented my case I will let the readers decide if they want to use the method or not.
Good to hear from you, hope we can get on another hot topic soon.  

Have fun..it's just a game! 

Dave!


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## Jabwa

Just my 2 cents:

1.Paper tuning- works to tune for perfect spine. I start with the shaft too long and gradually shorten until I get a bullet hole. Lots of things can cause bad tears besides arrow spine, however, and it is VERY DIFFICULT for anyone who doesn't have a lot of time to learn (especially beginners!). Once you learn the method it usually just takes a few shots to get a bullet hole. Contrary to what has been said, I find it very easy to shoot a few shots through paper in the basement before supper and WORK ON MY FORM AT THE SAME TIME! I don't need daylight or an indoor range to practice!

2.Walk-back tuning, as described in this thread, is the only real way to get perfect centershot. Again, this is not for beginners, because your groups must be tight and consistent for this fine-tuning method to work well. When you are done, go back and shoot through paper. If you now have a left or right tear, you can bet your sweet patooty (did I spell that right?) you don't have perfect arrow spine!

3.Shoot at a horizontal line at the farthest distance at which you can group well and adjust your tiller a little at a time until you get the best possible vertical group. Again, not for beginners, since the method relies on tight and consistent grouping.

So how does a beginner tune a bow? Don't worry about it! Learn to shoot the bow first and develop consistent form! In other words, tune yourself first, then the bow!!!

Okay, I'm done now. :zip:


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## Bow-zo

Hey jabwa, How ya been?
I agree with most everything you said. The only place I differ is the not for beginner part(except for paper tunig) I used the walk back long before I could group well. You just have to limit how far back you go. The farther the better but I started buy shooting at 10, 20 and 30. Any farther and my groups were to.. well there was no group. LOL!
Just shoot several groups and average where the center is and move back just 10 yards. As you learn to shoot better you tune better.
I read a article from a well known coach (Strickland) that actually "Walks Up" he claims it works better and is easier to aim at the center. You know a 5 yd. shot uses the same sight seting as a 25 or 30 yd. shot.
Just food for thought. I think beginners can benefit from the method as well as give them some practice at shooting and tuning.
Good to hear from ya. I always like your comments. I know you know what you are doing..Thanks!

Dave!


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## zenarch

Todays bows with their cut out sight windows and movable pressure points are wonderful indeed. I think they allow you to get good arrow flight and vertical line with a wider variety of spines.
On the bows that I started shooting with in the '60's (that's 1960's not 1860's), the arrow laying directly on the riser was an eighth inch or more left of the centerline of the bow. Adding a stick on rest made it even worse, yet they shot good line from the short to the long shots. I don't remember hearing of anyone using the same pin at short and long shots though, I guess someone thought of that later, to take the sight bar leveling out of the equation.
The only explanation I can offer is correct arrow spine but I don't remember having to do any super critical spine selection. The shaft sizes were much more limited and length and point weight were generally used to try different spines.
For the barebow guys who aimed with the arrow it was tough. If you could hold your bow vertically and aim with the arrow, you were lucky. Most had to cant the bow to the right to be able to sight with the arrow. Those guys were good.
Joe B.


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## francis

bow zo

just to let let you know

I am not stirring the pot lol
I really am sincere about what I am asking and really do appreciate everyones time in trying to explain their points of view, I have more questions, still am not there yet haha, but I will give everyone a break for now :smile: 


I still cant visualize the correct way to have the sight in relation to the arrow path, and what matters and what doesnt (example 4th axis-when you set it to your arrow path-is this really needed? and if you do set it to the arrow path how do you know for sure that this positon is not messing up your 3rd axis setting?), but I will leave this alone for now


But one thing that boggles me is this...., when your done your walkback tuning and center shot is set up good, what do you do if you want to try and fine tune your arrow spine to see if it can help your groups?
your centershot is set good so you have no lefts and rights to give you hints on weak or stiffness there, so where do you start ,go back to paper and view your tear?

oh I thought I wasnt going to ask any morethings for a while


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## THE FISH

Heres my .02. I tried the walkback method today. It did not produce the desired results. It loosened my groups by at least 50%. So I went back to what I usually do. This may sound stupid to you guys but this is it. I am in no way advocating that this is correct or asking anyone to try it. I may just be consistently lucky. When I start out from scratch, I just get sighted in enough to keep my arrows on the target at 30yds. Then I start chuckin arrows in the direction of that target with no concern for any spot on it. All I'm doing is watching my arrow fly. I move my rest back and forth until I get the straightest most consistent flight I can. I also am looking for lots of spin out of my vanes. I dont feel anything else matters if your arrows don't fly true. I get rid of any visible wobble or fishtail. I don't use any centershot lasers or anything like that. I believe your arrow's flight is the best indicator of your centershot. Once my arrow flies so sweet that I start getting all choked up inside, then I start with sight adjustment. First is the windage. Again you may think I'm stupid but thats ok. I'm not saying I'm right I'm just saying this works for me. Today I stole the plumb bob idea though and this made it faster. I dialed in a couple bullseyes at 15yds, hung the string and started backing up. I adjusted my windage as I got further away and kept laying them on the string out to about 45yds. I can shoot pretty consistent 3" groups at 40yds. but after that I get a little spread out. Once I had that dialed I went back to 10-20-30yds. and they all fell in line. Then I started making my range marks out to 60yds. I'm pretty happy with what I got. I am pounding bulls at 20yds and 3" groups at 40yds. This tells me that my bow is tuned to me. The fact that my groups get spread past 40 tells me that there is a problem, but I need a mirror to find it. *I am not* saying that walkback tuning doesn't work, I'm just saying that it did not work for me as well as I hoped it would. Does anyone think I'm nuts for the way I'm doing my setup.


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## NockOn

Went out and tried this also yesterday :tongue: I've only ever paper tune in the past and I shoot 1440 FITA tournaments to 90 meters. 

Shot a few arrows at 20 meters to warm up. Then put one in the middle of a circle. I hung-up a string with a weight at the bottom and backed-up to 50 meters without changing my sight.

Well........my @#$% arrow went right under the butt and in BYE BYE country  

I moved up to 35 meters instead and hit the string twice in a row  about 15 to 18 inches below the first one. I guess my paper tuning was bang on also or was this just a lucky turn of event that I didn't need to adjust anything?

Cheers,

Claude


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## bowbender7

If you are shooting compound release with a shoot through rest or launcher, arrow spine is of little consequence as long as you are not too weak.

Pick a shaft from a chart , or any one of the stiffer shafts from that chart and shoot it.

Anyone obsessed with "perfect spine" for a typical compound release setup could do more for their shooting by just shooting.


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## zenarch

NockOn said:


> Went out and tried this also yesterday :tongue: I've only ever paper tune in the past and I shoot 1440 FITA tournaments to 90 meters.
> 
> Shot a few arrows at 20 meters to warm up. Then put one in the middle of a circle. I hung-up a string with a weight at the bottom and backed-up to 50 meters without changing my sight.
> 
> Well........my @#$% arrow went right under the butt and in BYE BYE country
> 
> I moved up to 35 meters instead and hit the string twice in a row  about 15 to 18 inches below the first one. I guess my paper tuning was bang on also or was this just a lucky turn of event that I didn't need to adjust anything?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Claude


Claude,
I tried to warn you in an earlier post. My Conquest at 270 fps had a 7' drop from 20 to 60 yd. That puts me well into the dirt unless I'm starting with the target high up on a 8' bale. A 350 fps virtual bow I built with AA had a drop of 4', still in the dirt at 60 yd.

Bowbender7,
I'll give you a big AMEN on that.


Francis,
I think I've got a way worked out in my head of explaining my theory with drawings and if they come out OK I'll put them up with explanations for each one. I'm waking up at night thinking about the whole deal. Once I can show it in pictures, I'm done.
I guess it's my nature not to accept the "well, it works for me" expanation. Using a logical progression for each step of the procedure should lead to the one correct explanation. That way each step can be analyzed and accepted or rejected before moving on. The lucky guys who really don't care why are out there shooting dots while I'm trying make drawings that make sense. It's a curse.
Joe B.


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## francis

Zenarch

I know , it is a curse lol
I wish I could forget about it, 
Its not that I think this is more important than good practice or anything, or that I cant shoot good or get better without knowing or understanding these things, but rather I am just the type of person who likes to know the right way of doing things, and WHY I am doing them .

Look forward to seeing your drawings, hope your not losing too much sleep haha

Francis


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## Bow-zo

*Right On!*

Hey Francis, Whats up?
I was just teasing you about the pot stiring LOL!  I do not mind the ?'s at all it makes me think.
The best way to try differant arrows is to just shoot them. Once the bow is tuned to you you can try some stiffer or weaker spines. Watch to see if your groups get bigger or smaller? This is best done from as far way as you can shoot consistant groups like any other tuning. The farther the better.
Stiffer is always better than weaker especially for broadheads.
I do all my testing from 70 - 90 yards. The arrow that shoots the tightest group consistantly is the one I will use.

Have fun..D

Fish..How are ya? there is no bad way to tune. The only one you have to please is yourself. If you are happy with your results it does not matter how you got there. You are correct about arrow flight. Some can tune this way (bowbwnder1) I can not see the arrow well enough in flight to tell what it is doing so I have to wait untill it stops.(in the target) Some find center shot in differant ways as I said walk back is not the only just a very fast and easy way for most.
And no you are not "nuts" If you are happy with your method and it works for you then anyone that condemns it is "nuts".
"Just shoot it" Dave!

Nock on - Hey Claude, glad to meet ya! I think the FITA shooters have the most to benifit from the walk back method. You will want those 90mtr. arrows in the gold right along with the 30mtr. ones.
I shot my first FITA last year and somehow I managed to set a new state record in my class for all 4 distances.
Paper works very well for some and you must be one of them. You confirmed your center shot adjustment was right when you saw those arrows hit the string. Next time you set up a bow try the walk back "before" the paper and see what happens. It is a big confidence builder to know when shooting at 90mtrs. the arrows will be in the center and not slightly left or right. I have seen archers on the line before they shoot the closer distance (50 or 30) adjust their sight right or left because they know the arrow will go right or left when they move up. (center shot not right)

Have fun claude..Dave!

Bowbender7 is absolutely right about arrow spine. I have felt this for years. The charts will get you in the ball park but the final decision is what "shoots" Usually a heavier spine will shoot just fine if you are using a release aid. I just do not understand these guys that stand in front of paper all day (week) to find perfect spine according to the tear. Groups are what you want when done so why not start out shooting groups? My method has always been to find the size on the chart and pick one of the shafts in the next heaviest row. Or go up one size from the recomended. 
A shooters form has so much more to do with good shooting than shaft spine ever could. A stiff spine will not bend or bend very little. It just flys straight off the rest if you are not torquing the grip.
I have pics shot at 50+ yards from a hooter shooter of arrows that are way differant spine. 100 size, 200 size, 300 size and 400 size and you can not tell which group is which. All cut the same with 100 gr. tips.
Anyway got to go..you guys have fun. Dave!


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## Oldpro

*4th Axis*

Francis,

You do understand that the "In-Out" test is only a test to see if your 3rd Axis is perpendicular to your arrow path. (The shot arrow) and hopefully your sight extension is parallel. The reason Joe is saying it will help in the hills is #1, he is right! :wink: #2 if your 3rd axis is not perpendicular to your arrow path and you aim up or down the bubble will drift off a little, you will correct the bubble and miss left or right. Stop and think about it. A sight with a correctly set 3rd axis is pointing a degree to the right of the arrow path. When you aim up or down it will not stay centered because you are aiming the arrow not the sight bar. The arrow is the item that hits the center and the sight tells you how high to aim to do that. They MUST be aligned properly. :thumbs_up


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## Bow-zo

Hi Gene,
Glad you chimed in here. We have never met but I enjoy reading your post and comments. We think alot alike. I can visualize your 4th axis idea and it makes perfect sense.
I just wish I had thought about your web sight early on in this thread about center shot. Sorry about that..I would have directed some of these guys there to read your "WALK UP" method for center shot tuning. It would be a easier way for some of the ones that can not shoot good groups. I am glad you mention the importance of getting this adjustment done correctly before proceeding with the other aspects. I have not tried the walk up method although I did mention it. I will try this myself just so I can give a opinion if ever ask vs "the walk back". Either way it is a very important step in setting up a bow. It would be a good idea for anyone reading this thread to go check out gene's sight and read the tip about "walk up" center shot. And all the other good tuning stuff there.
I would like to try one of your 4th axis mounts also. I would like to see how one works from my hooter shooter. The shims work but it takes time. Something I started this post in the first place to try and save a little of. the time I have saved in bow set up I have spent posting here.Ha! Ha! I love this game..LOL!
Anyway good to hear from you..Thanks for your efforts in the archery industry.

Dave!


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## Jhorne

What is OldPro's website? Thanx, John


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## JAVI

Jhorne said:


> What is OldPro's website? Thanx, John


http://www.archerytech.com/


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## Jhorne

I was looking for his Walk Up method of tuning and couldn't find it.


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## Oldpro

*Walk up!*

Jhorne,

Look under "4th Axis Tuning Tips" Scroll down to #2! Acouple clicks down the page. What this walk up test will do is make sure the arrow is coming straight out of the bow with no fishtailing. If it fishtails you will not hit the line every time.

Bow-zo,

Thank you for your kind words!

You are right! This is a wonderful game we play! :smile:


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## francis

Thanks Gene

hard to believe but you helped me back on track !
I knew after about 100 replies I would see a little further into this
thanks guys lol

Francis


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## Oldpro

*Time will tell!*

Francis,

Speaking for myself, it just takes some of us a bit longer to figure things out. Until I built something to make tuning the 4th Axis a lot easier, I was setting my bow up wrong, the hard way,  for about 30 years. You are way ahead of me in that category. :wink:


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## zenarch

Francis,
I've been slow on getting my drawings done, but I haven't forgotten you.
Joe B.


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## francis

Thanks Joe  

by the the way I started using your comfort release a few months ago and  it is awesome, love it, I honestly can say It cured 80 percent of my target panic overnight, just by using it, and it didnt take me any time to get the hang of it, glad I dont shoot a safety any more


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## zenarch

Francis,
Here's the first of two drawings I'm posting. This is a review of what 3rd and 4th axis are all about.
The bottom image shows a sight with 2 levels mounted in it and assumes you are aiming at a level target. In this case both bubbles are in the middle. If you raise or lower your aim in this image, the left bubble will hold in the middle because it has been adjusted to be at a right angle (perpendicular) to your sight bar and, in this case, the path of your arrow. The bubble on the right will change with any elevation change of the sight bar, either up or down.

The top image shows the level still perpendicular to the sight bar but not to the arrow path. I've shown only one level here, with 2 bubble positions. The bubble stays in the middle if you're aim is level but if you shoot uphill the fluid flows to the right and the bubble moves to the left. Canting the bow to the left to re-center the bubble will now cause a left miss.
I hope this explanation helps and that it's correct. The second drawing on centershot is coming soon.
Joe B.


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## zenarch

Francis,
Here's the other drawing showing the results of moving your centershot adjustment. The drawing shows a 20yd target and assumes a 60yd target on the same line. The targets are set on level ground. The arrow path is shown as a series of dots and the sight line is done with dashes. The arrow is assumed to leave the string at the brace height of the bow. It is also assumed that the bow string returns toward same point on the bow in a straight path, in each figure shown. This is LONG but stick with it.

In figure "A" everything is set up to ideal conditions. The 3rd axis has been adjusted on a sight leveler, off the bow. The sight line and arrow path are the same and the parallel to the sight extension (4th axis).

In figure "B", the centershot has been moved 2 turns to the left. The sight line remains the same but when the arrow leaves the string it veers to the left and hits the target 2" to the left and continues on to the 60yd target even further left.

Figure "C" is the same as figure "B" except the sight is now aimed 2" to the right. Now when the arrow leaves the string, it veers left and it's path goes straight to the center of the 20yd target and continues along that line, hitting the 60yd target also in the middle.

In figure "D" the windage has been adjusted to bring the sight pin back to the path of the arrow. Now when we aim the sight at the target, the bow will be in the the same position as it was in Figure "C" and the arrow path still goes to the center of the target at 20 and 60yds.

That's my explanation as to why moving the centershot adjustment can be corrected with the windage adjustment while keeping the same line from 20 to 60yds. But it's also opened my eyes to what I think is happening to Bow-Zo and others when they see an offset in line from 20 to 60yds. IMHO the problem they are seeing is a leveling problem, not the fact that the arrow line is diverging further down range. Here's what I think is going on.

If you'll look back at Figure "D", you'll see that the sight extension is no longer parallel to the arrow path, a 4th axis problem. But we're shooting on level ground, so it shouldn't make any difference, right. Wrong. If we raised both targets to a level that let us aim at the center while keeping the sight bar level, it would be true. But aiming at a 20yd butt and then raising your bow to aim at a 60yd butt down range, causes the sight bar to be held in 2 different positions, with respect to being level with the ground. If that's true, then the sight bar diverging to the right of the arrow path is going to screw up our level. In this case, raising the bow causes the bubble to go to the left (check the previous 4th axis picture). If we bring the bubble back to center, by canting the bow to the left, we'll miss left at 60yd, which is what Bow-Zo sees.

So my conclusion is that walkback tuning doesn't matter was wrong and Bow-Zo's adjustments do work, but for a different reason than we thought. It works to correct your level at different aiming angles by _aligning your arrow path parallel to your sight bar _ (4th axis). This differs from Oldpro's method of _aligning the sight bar to make it parallel to the arrow path_ but arrives at the same place.

So, if we now understand what's happening, how can we use it. Here's what I think the bow set up steps should be.

1 - Set your sight up on a sight leveler, off the bow, including the 3rd axis.

2 - Set your centershot by eye to align the arrow shaft with the center of your cams.

3 - Shoot through paper to set your nock height so that you have a small, high tear. Powder your vanes and shaft to check for interference with the rest.It's been my experience that a right or left tear is caused mainly by torque and secondly by spine and the type of rest used and also by how you rig your d-loop. Centershot adjustments don't have any effect for me on left/right tears, so *leave it set * and do your best to correct any wild horizontal tears with the other things. Get it the best you can and go to step 4.

4 - Now go to a 50yd target and do the following (this is the test Oldpro uses. See the 4th axis thread in the Mfgrs. Forum.) Move your sight bar all the way in and adjust your sight and windage to put you in the middle. Note the elevation setting. Now slide your sight bar to full extension and readjust your elevation to hit spot high. If your centershot is too far left, as seen in Fig. "D", your pin will be further right when the sight is extended and you'll hit to the left of the spot. Note the elevation setting so we can return to it. Now move the centershot 1 turn to the right and do the sight in/sight out test again (don't forget to change your elevation when you slide the bar in and out). If the two groups got closer you went the right way. If they get further apart go back with the centershot and then go a turn the other way. Keep adjusting the centershot until the groups come together, then adjust your windage to center them in the spot. Move your sight bar to where you like it and lock down your centershot adjustment.

5 - Group tune, if you think you need to, at a distance you can be comfortable at by using tiller, nocking point height or bow weight but not centershot.

6 - Go shoot some field archery, I'm going to get some sleep.
Joe B.


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## zenarch

ttt


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## AllenRead

Joe,

This is some great information. It explains a lot to me.

Thanks for posting. Your two posts with pictures ought to have a thread of their own. More people woul see it.

Allen


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## DwayneR

Hello Bow-zo

BZ>>if you read the post again you will see the sight had to be rezeroed at 20 before walking back to 60. After you make a rest adjustment you always have to rezero at 20.<<

And this creates a problem...

1. Paper tune for holes....
2. Sight in for 20.

A. Your bow is tuned for Bullets and proper arrow.
b. Your sight is tuned for 20.

3. Throw arrows at 60 ...Move REST to zero in at 60?

a. You have just ruined your bullet holes. (you moved your rest).



I personally do not believe all bows are made to be perfectly aligned for all yardages. 

I believe what is really happening with your "Walk-back" tuning, is that you are "Quazi tuning". 

In other words, you are "making" your bow "Average out" the tuning between 20 and 60. In other words, when properly tuned with Bullet holes, and sighted in at (pick your yardage). The bow is at its best....

Making any other adjustment to the bow (other than sight windage), will detune your bow from this optimum preformance. If your bow is hitting to the side at 60, and you choose to change your rest, you mess up your bullet hole /center shot... no ands or ifs. Messing up that bullet hole is up to you...

Yes, you can align any bow you want by Quazi tuning... so that the arrow will hit the same at 20 yards, 10 yards or 100 yards...But what you are doing is detuning, by forcing the arrow to go where you want it to go...ignoring whether that arrow is in optimum flight or not.

Dwayne


BZ>> If you move the rest to the right the arrow will go right at all yardages so you have to move the sight to the right also to bring the arrow back left to center. What you are doing in effect is lining up the sight, arrow, string, grip center, release aid, shooting eye all parts involved in a straight line<<

And what you are donig in effect, is detuning your bow to make a Quazi tuned bow that you can shoot at different yardages without changing windage.

Dwayne


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## DwayneR

Hello Bow-Zo

I tried to attach this to my message...didn't work, so I am writing it here.

The only other factor that could possibly be wrong... is Paper tuning is 100 percent wrong. If this is so, then we are saying that it is Ok for a arrow to exit the bow and "wobble?" or fishtale. Is this what you are saying? If this is what you are saying, then are you also implying that Paper tuning is a "STARTING" point, and Walkback is the finalization? And if by "Accident" the paper tuning happens to be bullseyes at 20 and 60...its luck of the draw?

Dwayne


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## Bow-zo

*Hi guys!*

Hi Dwayne, glad to hear from you,
I think you and Joe are both "partially" correct but not on the same page as I am and I will explain later when I have more time to sit at my lap top and type.
Thanks for your input Dwayne.
Nice drawings Joe!
dave!


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## Bow-zo

*4th axis?*

Alright now first a comment or two for Joe. Good drawings by the way. Thanks for incorporating them in your comments.
I will say I agree with most everything you said except the 4th axis idea about my center shot method.
You did make me think though and do a few test just to be sure. You see I have been aligning my sight bar with shims like a lot of others for years (4th axis) so I do not think that effects my walk back tuning. 
The test I did was to put my bow in the hooter shooter at full draw from 20 yds. I made sure everything was true and plumb. I shot some arrows just for fun and moved back to 50 yds. with the hooter shooter. (by the way I checked my note book and the original pic with the string hanging from the 20 yard arrow. The low group was shot from 50 yds. Not 60! Joe setting up the mock bow with A/A made me think ;-) Sorry everyone if I misled anyone. But that does not effect the outcome.) I again plumbed everything and then I cranked the handle on my H/S so my sight is dead on @ 50 yds. The bubble did not move enough to throw the arrow off 3-4 inches. It moved very, very slightly to the left. My conclusion is my “4th axis is very close and had no effect on the walk back as you suggest.
If you look at a bow with a pin sight the spread from the 20 yd. pin to the 50 yd. pin is not much. Mine is about 5/8“. This is on a bow of 270fps or more. Lifting your sight this small amount @ 50 yds. Is not going to make any appreciable differents for most archers. Even without adjusting for “4th axis”
If you read Oldpro’s thread again you will see he suggest a “STEEP” uphill or down hill to test for this condition. Again everyone! read Oldpro’s tuning tips on his web sight. He also agrees the center shot “IS” critical to proper bow setup and needs to be done early in the tuning process. 
I will post this thread by itself them address Dwayne’s comments.
Thanks Joe, you put me to the task of confirming or denying my own way of doing things. Very enlightening to say the least. :wink: 

Dave!


----------



## Mag-Tek

Most of us are here to learn, some to fell like a big shot to lead without wisdom. I hope you can see the difference. If not go to a Pro Archery shop to help you and look for top archers to help you.

The walk back test can be off by several reasons. Your 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th axis can be off. This is how you tune your level to your shooting!!!!!!!!!!

Thats all you need to learn to get it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look up www.archerytech.com and learn level fine points!!!!!


----------



## Bow-zo

*???*

Hi Mag-Tec,
I may be wrong but I do not think anyone is trying to lead anyone here or be a big shot. We are just having a friendly discussion about our favorite tuning methods and what "works" for us. Is that not what Archery Talk is all about.
Personally I am sorry if anything I have said has led anyone astray. As said in this thread earlier these are all our opinions and what works for us. They simply are to be tried and proven or just discarded. If you disagree with someone say so.That is what makes the USA.."The USA" is it not.
What is A/T for if not to come here and discuss this sport that we all love so much. There are several books available on tuning and they are all differant. Why..because opinions are like A-holes..everybody has one. 

By the way I adjust my first, second, third and forth axis brfore I walk back. So like I said to Joe. It has no effect on my walk back tuning.

Dave!


----------



## Bow-zo

*Dwayne!*

OK, now for my thoughts on Dwayne’s comments.
First I would like to thank you again for the input. This tuning thing we all do can be very intimidating to some to say the least. We need to help each other if we can to keep this great sport moving forward and not let the newbies get discouraged.

1. First I will say this method is for a new or way out of tune bow. Or a bow the shooter thinks he is going to wear his sight out or has to keep moving the sight every time he goes from short to long range and back short again. And “AGAIN” I will say it is for those that have trouble with paper tuning and get nothing but bad results from it which is the case with most new archers even many old ones ;-) Although I think it is much more accurate for center shot adjustment than paper. “IF” you read “ALL” my post carefully you will see I mention several times this is a alternative to paper tuning. So ..you can not “Ruin” a bullet hole you did not have in the first place if you did not start by paper tuning which I do not. Moving the rest in the walk back is the same as the rest moving you do when you paper tune.
You are moving the rest to put it in line with the rest of the equipment in effect to get a good tear. I move the rest in line to hit the string. Some eat with their right hand some the left..end result..food in mouth. It is just a differant way to get there. I will also say after tuning many bows this way I use to shoot a few through paper just to see the result and almost every time it was a bullet hole so I do not even do this step any more. But if you wish and it would make you feel better to check it on paper. "DO IT"
I now let the groups tell me if something is not yet right or the way I want it.


3. BZ>> If you move the rest to the right the arrow will go right at all yardages so you have to move the sight to the right also to bring the arrow back left to center. What you are doing in effect is lining up the sight, arrow, string, grip center, release aid, shooting eye all parts involved in a straight line<< 

Is this not what we want? I’m I missing something here?

4. And what you are doing in effect, is detuning your bow to make a Quazi tuned bow that you can shoot at different yardages without changing windage.

If you think the sight “should” be adjusted for windage every time you change yardage than your thinking is not on the same page as mine and many others.. It would also indicate the arrow is not flying straight would it not. If you shoot a multi pin sight they will be in a diagonal line not straight up and down. (Maybe I am missing something?)

5. The only other factor that could possibly be wrong... is Paper tuning is 100 percent wrong. If this is so, then we are saying that it is Ok for a arrow to exit the bow and "wobble?" or fishtale. Is this what you are saying? If this is what you are saying, then are you also implying that Paper tuning is a "STARTING" point, and Walkback is the finalization? And if by "Accident" the paper tuning happens to be bullseyes at 20 and 60...its luck of the draw?

I do not think paper tuning is wrong..it just is not for the beginner to start off his archery experience with.
Much too frustrating. Just ask some of these guys. A bullet hole is very,very hard for a lot of people to get when first starting out.
No I do not think or have ever implied that it is OK for the arrow to leave the bow “fishtailing” and yes paper tuning or for that matter walk back tuning is just a starting point. The final result to “ANY” tuning is how the bow shoots when you are done. And I can guarantee you my arrows do not "wobble or fishtail".. without paper tuning. When I did paper tune and paper tune only my groups were not as tight. (Maybe I did it wrong?)

Neither do I think it is the luck of the draw if the 20 and the 60 yard shots hit the bullseye. After all is that not what tuning is..adjustments to get the arrow where you want it. I know what will happen when I make an adjustment that is why I make them. I know beyond all doubt that my arrows will hit in a straight vertical line at all distances up hill and down. Again without paper tuning. If paper gets you there and you like to paper tune then by all means rip and tear to your hearts content. If you are fed up with it and the frustration it brings try the walk Back. (The reason I started this thread)
I do not Paper tune, I do not like to Paper tune. Not because I can’t but because I can get there much,much faster without it and I know anyone that gives it a honest try will get there too. 
The Walk Back is not new I have said this before. It is not my idea I just use it. There are many pro’s that use it too. It is published in many archery and tuning books. Does that make it right? No! Does that make it wrong..you decide.
All I did was start this thread to show new ones how I do it and the results that I get from it. (which you have to admit are not bad) Believe me I am not one to toot my own horn and I certainly do not want to act “Like a Big Shot“ “but” some of you guys with the better and proven tuning methods post some pics of 80yd. Groups “you” shot. 
The method works for me and many others. I just want to help others get there bow to shoot as quickly and easily as possible. I did not have such help. I had to try everything that was thrown at me. I kept what worked and dumped what did not. The same anyone here has to do.
Pick it apart if it blows yer skirt up..but if you have not tried it????
Go out and try it then come back and tell us what you think. Give us some valuable comments..good or bad!
Maybe I should mention that my tuning starts out by setting "ALL" the axises 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th in a vise and @ full draw before any shooting takes place incuding the walk back.

And don’t we all “wish” that is all it takes to get it right.

O.K. I am off the soap box. Dave!


----------



## francis

Thanks Joe for the pics and expla  nation, i will read it as soon as i can!


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## Jhorne

I think my 10th Axis is off a little. Can I get a little help? Just kidding, John


----------



## Oldpro

*Sort out what works for you!*

I can say this because you are a friend!

Mag-Tek, 

You are out of line! 

All input on this site is about helping others. What works for the goose may not work for the gander. If I have not tried hundreds of different ways of tuning over the years I would still be shooting a longbow!  Our goal is not to judge the tuning methods of the folks on this site. In stead, see if it will help you. If not........discard it. I only know of one person that knows it all and *He* doesn't post on this forum.


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## Poluke

Are you saying that if your rest is not in sync with the front/tip and back/fletching of the arrow that when you adjust windage you are attempting to flex the center of the arrow before the shot comes off?


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## zenarch

Thanks Gene. You're a class act.
Joe B.


----------



## stodr

Mag-Tek said:


> Most of us are here to learn, some to fell like a big shot to lead without wisdom. I hope you can see the difference. If not go to a Pro Archery shop to help you and look for top archers to help you.
> 
> The walk back test can be off by several reasons. Your 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th axis can be off. This is how you tune your level to your shooting!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Thats all you need to learn to get it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Look up www.archerytech.com and learn level fine points!!!!!


I disagree with you. If you are shooting on level ground and sight in your bow for 20 yard and never move the sight it doesn't matter if you have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th axis on your sight. There will be no impact change of your arrows except by gravity. 

I think a misconception is when you do your walk back the group you shoot wether on the left or the right is still a nice tight group. It normally is bigger and usually a horizontal group instead of a nice tight cirlcle.

Here is the test I did with my hooter shooter.

Sighted in a 20 yards on a 1/4" dot with a hootershooter. Went back to 80 yards shot 5 groups of 6 arrows (with my tuned bow). I added up the miss distance of the vertical line, and divided the total shots into the number and also took the group size by measuring the radius form the center of the group to the farthest arrow.

Then I took the bow turned my rest so the was rest 1/16" left resighted in at 20 yards and shoot my 30 arrows.

Results thru the hooter shooter at 80 yards was the mean average miss distance for tuned bow was .23" right. For the detuned bow .75" left. Group size tuned - horizontal 1.35, vertical 1.2, Nontuned bow horizontal 2.6" vertical 1.23". 

I threw out 3 arrows do to being to far out of the mean, 1 for the tuned group and 2 for the nontuned group.

Results showed me that the 1/16" difference at 80 yards caused a 1 inch left of center impact difference (compared to the tuned group) and an approx 75% increase in horizontal group size with a negligical vertical group size increase. 

This means to me that the recovery of an arrow after the shot is not always the same (probally why we need the correct spine) unless the forces put upon that arrow allow it to recover in the most efficient manner to as close to the same everytime as possible. This last part is just my opinion.


----------



## ex-NFO

[QUOTE=Oldpro

I agree with Oldpro. I've been very happy with walkback tuning results. This is once I get my scope leveled, of course.


----------



## zenarch

Stodr,
Nice job. I think the 1" left grouping would probably not be discernable to an archer actually shooting the bow but the change in group size is interesting. Do you think you could find the smallest group size at 80yd by setting the rest to the best spot and then see the change in group size as you adjusted further off in each direction? I realize that if an archer were shooting the bow, there would be a lot more variations in torque, pressure points, etc. but if the results with a machine are real and repeatable, then I would have to say that the centershot adjustment should be included in a group tuning session.
Once again, I have to repeat that most of these fine steps will be dependent on the ability of the archer to shoot small consistant groups. If you're not shooting near the top in your game, spend your time working on form and perfecting your shot.
Joe B.


----------



## Oldpro

*Exactly!*

Tune to get the best group! Then rotate your entire sighting unit so the 3rd axis (bubble) is perpendicular to the arrow path. (4th Axis) Do not mess with centershot to make this happen. :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


----------



## DwayneR

Hello Bow Zo,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond.

BZ>>First I would like to thank you again for the input. This tuning thing we all do can be very intimidating to some to say the least. We need to help each other if we can to keep this great sport moving forward and not let the newbies get discouraged.<<

Well.. <g>... I am quite far from a Newbe <g>. But I am always open to different ideas and understanding those ideas.



BZ>>1. “IF” you read “ALL” my post carefully you will see I mention several times this is a alternative to paper tuning. So ..you can not “Ruin” a bullet hole you did not have in the first place if you did not start by paper tuning which I do not. Moving the rest in the walk back is the same as the rest moving you do when you paper tune.<<

Ok...and my "First of all" statement <g>...I have never done this walkback tuning. I can consistantly produce Bullet holes out of my bows time and time again.

Now with the above said... I will explain to you Why I ask such a question, and why I say "Quazi" tune. With ( that I know of ) every compound I have shot, When I get bullet holes, My sights line up from right to left. Similar to the following Zeros. (representing my pins)


> ___0
> __0
> _0


Edit: I had to use underscore to align the "0" correctly...


Thus I have one or two choices... To rotate my sight at a slight angle so that the pins "Line-up" straight, or.... to use the pins like they are and compensate for the slight drift to the left as the yardage increases. (I gave up on finding a nice sight to rotate <g>)

Now the *other* choice, is to move your rest... and if you move your rest, you are detuning your centershot... thus forcing the arrow to shoot more to the right (for my case). This will case slight "fishtailing". Thus my comment of Quazi tuning, or detuning from a bullet hole.

Now for the Paper comment... The question lies... Is it better to have a bullet hole or not??? If not, why? Would it not be better to have a arrow come out of a bow with very little bad behavior or not? This is my main question. 

BZ>>You are moving the rest to put it in line with the rest of the equipment in effect to get a good tear.<<

The problem with this, is each person has a "different" grip. I can't pick up your bow and hit a bulleye with it, and I seriously doubt if you can do the same with mine. So essentually you are aligning the archer to the bow, along with aligning the equipment up. Do you agree or disagree, and why if you disagree?




> 3. BZ>> If you move the rest to the right the arrow will go right at all yardages so you have to move the sight to the right also to bring the arrow back left to center. What you are doing in effect is lining up the sight, arrow, string, grip center, release aid, shooting eye all parts involved in a straight line<<
> 
> Is this not what we want? I’m I missing something here?
> 
> 
> 4. And what you are doing in effect, is detuning your bow to make a Quazi tuned bow that you can shoot at different yardages without changing windage.



I noticed that you accidently separated the two sentences too quickly. Because of this action, 4 would seem confusing, and 3 would seem perfect.


BZ>>If you think the sight “should” be adjusted for windage every time you change yardage than your thinking is not on the same page as mine and many others.. It would also indicate the arrow is not flying straight would it not. If you shoot a multi pin sight they will be in a diagonal line not straight up and down. (Maybe I am missing something?)<<

Not necessarily...Just because your "sight pins" are not STRAIGHT up and down, does not mean your arrow is not flying straight. (or maybe I should say "TRUE", instead of straight.


BZ>>No I do not think or have ever implied that it is OK for the arrow to leave the bow “fishtailing” <<

Sorry, I didn't mean for you to think that you "implied" such a thing.


BZ>> When I did paper tune and paper tune only my groups were not as tight. (Maybe I did it wrong?)<<

No, you didn't do it wrong.. because it has worked for you and others. What maybe wrong for others, could be right for them. I am only trying to figure out how to go to 60 yards and hit Perfectly verticle with my equipement without doing one of the following: 1. "rotating" my sight a tad to the left. 2. Let the pins me, and shoot the pins with a slight skew to the left. 3. ADjust windage (which I never touch my sight in the first place, after it is set).

BZ>>All I did was start this thread to show new ones how I do it and the results that I get from it. (which you have to admit are not bad)<<

I agree, I enjoy threads like this... Why? because with the full understanding of another way, a person CAN help others, with a diffent technic. I enjoy "understanding" the technic. But right now...(with my setup), your technic and mine are in conflict... This does not jive, and I am trying to figure out why it doesn't jive. 

BZ>>The method works for me and many others. I just want to help others get Pick it apart if it blows yer skirt up..but if you have not tried it????<<

But I know that if I moved my rest, My bullet holes are gone...a tear to the right will appear again. Because I will have to move that rest to the right to force my arrows to shoot properly (in line) at 60 yards.


Look forward to your comments!

Dwayne


----------



## stodr

zenarch said:


> Stodr,
> Nice job. I think the 1" left grouping would probably not be discernable to an archer actually shooting the bow but the change in group size is interesting. Do you think you could find the smallest group size at 80yd by setting the rest to the best spot and then see the change in group size as you adjusted further off in each direction? I realize that if an archer were shooting the bow, there would be a lot more variations in torque, pressure points, etc. but if the results with a machine are real and repeatable, then I would have to say that the centershot adjustment should be included in a group tuning session.
> Once again, I have to repeat that most of these fine steps will be dependent on the ability of the archer to shoot small consistant groups. If you're not shooting near the top in your game, spend your time working on form and perfecting your shot.
> Joe B.


I have done this a couple of times. It worked the same all the time. I wrote the results for the smallest amount of rest movement that I could really measure and be confident it wasn't piper placement or a slight breeze. 

As for the second part of your question if I understood it correctly; the more I moved the rest the farther the point of impact chnage for 20-80 was but it did not increase very fast. The size of the group however did increase 2-3 times as fast as the point of impact change.

You are right I probally could not except on my really good days notice 1 inch at 80 yards but I can notice significant group size difference.


----------



## stodr

DwayneR said:


> Hello Bow Zo,
> 
> First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond.
> 
> BZ>>First I would like to thank you again for the input. This tuning thing we all do can be very intimidating to some to say the least. We need to help each other if we can to keep this great sport moving forward and not let the newbies get discouraged.<<
> 
> Well.. <g>... I am quite far from a Newbe <g>. But I am always open to different ideas and understanding those ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> BZ>>1. “IF” you read “ALL” my post carefully you will see I mention several times this is a alternative to paper tuning. So ..you can not “Ruin” a bullet hole you did not have in the first place if you did not start by paper tuning which I do not. Moving the rest in the walk back is the same as the rest moving you do when you paper tune.<<
> 
> Ok...and my "First of all" statement <g>...I have never done this walkback tuning. I can consistantly produce Bullet holes out of my bows time and time again.
> 
> Now with the above said... I will explain to you Why I ask such a question, and why I say "Quazi" tune. With ( that I know of ) every compound I have shot, When I get bullet holes, My sights line up from right to left. Similar to the following Zeros. (representing my pins)
> 
> 
> Edit: I had to use underscore to align the "0" correctly...
> 
> 
> Thus I have one or two choices... To rotate my sight at a slight angle so that the pins "Line-up" straight, or.... to use the pins like they are and compensate for the slight drift to the left as the yardage increases. (I gave up on finding a nice sight to rotate <g>)
> 
> Now the *other* choice, is to move your rest... and if you move your rest, you are detuning your centershot... thus forcing the arrow to shoot more to the right (for my case). This will case slight "fishtailing". Thus my comment of Quazi tuning, or detuning from a bullet hole.
> 
> Now for the Paper comment... The question lies... Is it better to have a bullet hole or not??? If not, why? Would it not be better to have a arrow come out of a bow with very little bad behavior or not? This is my main question.
> 
> BZ>>You are moving the rest to put it in line with the rest of the equipment in effect to get a good tear.<<
> 
> The problem with this, is each person has a "different" grip. I can't pick up your bow and hit a bulleye with it, and I seriously doubt if you can do the same with mine. So essentually you are aligning the archer to the bow, along with aligning the equipment up. Do you agree or disagree, and why if you disagree?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed that you accidently separated the two sentences too quickly. Because of this action, 4 would seem confusing, and 3 would seem perfect.
> 
> 
> BZ>>If you think the sight “should” be adjusted for windage every time you change yardage than your thinking is not on the same page as mine and many others.. It would also indicate the arrow is not flying straight would it not. If you shoot a multi pin sight they will be in a diagonal line not straight up and down. (Maybe I am missing something?)<<
> 
> Not necessarily...Just because your "sight pins" are not STRAIGHT up and down, does not mean your arrow is not flying straight. (or maybe I should say "TRUE", instead of straight.
> 
> 
> BZ>>No I do not think or have ever implied that it is OK for the arrow to leave the bow “fishtailing” <<
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean for you to think that you "implied" such a thing.
> 
> 
> BZ>> When I did paper tune and paper tune only my groups were not as tight. (Maybe I did it wrong?)<<
> 
> No, you didn't do it wrong.. because it has worked for you and others. What maybe wrong for others, could be right for them. I am only trying to figure out how to go to 60 yards and hit Perfectly verticle with my equipement without doing one of the following: 1. "rotating" my sight a tad to the left. 2. Let the pins me, and shoot the pins with a slight skew to the left. 3. ADjust windage (which I never touch my sight in the first place, after it is set).
> 
> BZ>>All I did was start this thread to show new ones how I do it and the results that I get from it. (which you have to admit are not bad)<<
> 
> I agree, I enjoy threads like this... Why? because with the full understanding of another way, a person CAN help others, with a diffent technic. I enjoy "understanding" the technic. But right now...(with my setup), your technic and mine are in conflict... This does not jive, and I am trying to figure out why it doesn't jive.
> 
> BZ>>The method works for me and many others. I just want to help others get Pick it apart if it blows yer skirt up..but if you have not tried it????<<
> 
> But I know that if I moved my rest, My bullet holes are gone...a tear to the right will appear again. Because I will have to move that rest to the right to force my arrows to shoot properly (in line) at 60 yards.
> 
> 
> Look forward to your comments!
> 
> Dwayne


I have to disagree with your bullet hole analogy. Just because it shoots a bullet hole does not mean it is a perfect tune, so I don't believe you are detuning your bow. From my experience if I get a perfect bullet hole then usually have to move my rest 1/32-1/16 inch to the left, to shoot my best groups at 90M. It is a great way to start but you are not finished there. Again I have tested this in a hooter shooter. I can tune my bow to shoot bullets thru paper but the arrows will not group down range. I don't know why that is true probally because the arrow might not be perfically spined for the bow, but that is what I have found. I don't know all the elite archers but the ones I do know, do not pay any attention to paper tuning.


----------



## DwayneR

Hello StoDr,

S>>I have to disagree with your bullet hole analogy. Just because it shoots a bullet hole does not mean it is a perfect tune, so I don't believe you are detuning your bow. It is a great way to start but you are not finished there.<<

Great!...Now we are in disagreement, and you did a excellent job of telling me why you disagree with it....Now I will respond to why we *may* be in disagreement. (Whether I am right or wrong is another story.


S>> Again I have tested this in a hooter shooter. I can tune my bow to shoot bullets thru paper but the arrows will not group down range.<<

If I am not reading you wrong, you have tested this in a Hooter. The problem with a Hooter, is that it grips the bow mechanically...all the same. You and I grip the bows differently. You cannot pick up my bow and shoot a bullseye... and I cannot pick up your bow and shoot a bullseye. Because (this is what I believe ok?) Each of us humans have a different grip on the bow... which produces a slightly different "Torque" when we let that arrow fly. Thus IMO I can hit a bullseye, but you will pick up my bow and end up shooting 5 to 8 inches to the left or right...(or something different than what I would be shooting).

Though I have not tried this (I want you to know this ok?). I am fairly certain that if I shot my bow through a hooter, zeroed it in, and took it to a field, that my groups would not be that good either. I am sure that my arrows would be way off target too.


S>> I don't know why that is true probally because the arrow might not be perfically spined for the bow, but that is what I have found. I don't know all the elite archers but the ones I do know, do not pay any attention to paper tuning.<<

I don't know why either... maybe someone can explain. 

What you have said, is paper tuning is somewhat worthless (a starting point, but not a "reality"). 

What would be interesting, is shooting your bow through your hooter NOW!!! Since you have Walked tuned it to group WELL. (I do not have a hooter). What happens to the Bullet hole? Still there? high? low? right? left? and shooting the bow WITHOUT the hooter???? High, Low, left, right?

If a person groups fantastically at 60, 80 yards after a walk... What happens to the Bullet hole?

Dwayne


----------



## Bow-zo

Thanks Gene!


Poluke, If you only move the sight to adjust windage then the arrow will not be pointing where all the other parts of the bow are. Reread my post about the string line from peep to bullseye. You have to move the rest to get the arrow in that same line. Which is differant for everyone.


Hi stodr,
Good to hear from you. I appreciate you posting your test results..and taking the time to do it. This is the kind of info we all like hear. That is good meaningful and useful info. I have not done a test like that with my H/S but I have thought about it. It is very time consuming to do these types of test.
Thank you very much.
I will need to read it 4 or 5 times to see if I have any ?'s for you. LOL! 
Thanks Dave.

Hi Joe,
I do not think you have to be such a great group shooter for these steps to help you.
stodr's test showed the results shot from a H/S. The same test shot from a real archer would just magnify the results but you can still take averages and come up with a bow shooting to fit your style. That is the way I tune my equip. I shoot several groups from long distance (sometimes over the course of several days) before I decide to move anything.
You can practice your form at the same time.
IMHO you can not shoot good groups untill you learn to tune your bow. You have to be able see what happens when you move something to get anything out of it. Start early..the groups will come! LOL!
Again IMHO it is paper tuning that should be reserved for the more advanced and better archers.
Have fun..It is just a game!
(by the way you are right..gene has the correct screen name does he not?)


Hey Dwayne,
Good to hear back from you. I am feeling a little confused? I see your second post contains several questions.
I am not sure if you had the same ?'s in the first post or if you were just expressing your opinion? Either way it is good to hear from you. I have some things I need to take care of right at the moment but I will be back soon to respond to your comments.
In the mean time let me ask you a few ?.
1. Do you shoot with a mechanical release?
2. Do you get a bullet hole with your paper tuning at all distances? 
(are you sure the arrow is flying straight from the time it leaves the bow all the way to the Bullseye?) I am thinking about your ?'s and need to know the above.
I'll be back..Thanks Dave!


----------



## stodr

DwayneR said:


> Hello StoDr,
> 
> S>>I have to disagree with your bullet hole analogy. Just because it shoots a bullet hole does not mean it is a perfect tune, so I don't believe you are detuning your bow. It is a great way to start but you are not finished there.<<
> 
> Great!...Now we are in disagreement, and you did a excellent job of telling me why you disagree with it....Now I will respond to why we *may* be in disagreement. (Whether I am right or wrong is another story.
> 
> 
> S>> Again I have tested this in a hooter shooter. I can tune my bow to shoot bullets thru paper but the arrows will not group down range.<<
> 
> If I am not reading you wrong, you have tested this in a Hooter. The problem with a Hooter, is that it grips the bow mechanically...all the same. You and I grip the bows differently. You cannot pick up my bow and shoot a bullseye... and I cannot pick up your bow and shoot a bullseye. Because (this is what I believe ok?) Each of us humans have a different grip on the bow... which produces a slightly different "Torque" when we let that arrow fly. Thus IMO I can hit a bullseye, but you will pick up my bow and end up shooting 5 to 8 inches to the left or right...(or something different than what I would be shooting).
> 
> Though I have not tried this (I want you to know this ok?). I am fairly certain that if I shot my bow through a hooter, zeroed it in, and took it to a field, that my groups would not be that good either. I am sure that my arrows would be way off target too.
> 
> 
> S>> I don't know why that is true probally because the arrow might not be perfically spined for the bow, but that is what I have found. I don't know all the elite archers but the ones I do know, do not pay any attention to paper tuning.<<
> 
> I don't know why either... maybe someone can explain.
> 
> What you have said, is paper tuning is somewhat worthless (a starting point, but not a "reality").
> 
> What would be interesting, is shooting your bow through your hooter NOW!!! Since you have Walked tuned it to group WELL. (I do not have a hooter). What happens to the Bullet hole? Still there? high? low? right? left? and shooting the bow WITHOUT the hooter???? High, Low, left, right?
> 
> If a person groups fantastically at 60, 80 yards after a walk... What happens to the Bullet hole?
> 
> Dwayne


Dwayne my holes are different with every bow. I usually skip paper tuning but if I am having a dificult time group tuning and walk back tuning sometimes I will paper tune and start form there.

I won't mention any names but there are many big name coaches out there that believe paper tuning is a waist of time for release shooters.


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## DwayneR

Hello Bow Zo,

BZ>>I am not sure if you had the same ?'s in the first post or if you were just expressing your opinion? Either way it is good to hear from you. I have some things I need to take care of right at the moment but I will be back soon to respond to your comments.<<

Well, they were both questions, and opinions...<g>. I always have a open mind, and if I can be shown via visual or knowledge (or some other way) that my opinion is wrong, Hey! I am all for it!

This is why I am trying to Understand the differences of the two tuning methods. One method (which is yours) would definitely destroy my bullet holes. Now...my question is... How important are the bullet holes, and why? The next message was from StoDr...His response was "He knows some high coaches that say Bullet holes is a waste of time to use on tuning a bow. Also the mention of different tears for different bows.

This brings up another important question... How important *IS* the bullet hole?? And this is the answer I am trying to justify. 

1. Shouldn't that arrow leave that bow with as little variance as possible for proper smooth flight? If so, wouldn't that be a bullet hole? (or close).

BZ>>In the mean time let me ask you a few ?.
1. Do you shoot with a mechanical release?<<

Yes and No.

My compound bows, I shoot Mechanical... MY recurve bows, I shoot fingers. Even with my finger release, by aiming has the same slight right to left windage as my yardage goes out.


BZ>>2. Do you get a bullet hole with your paper tuning at all distances? <<
(are you sure the arrow is flying straight from the time it leaves the bow all the way to the Bullseye?) I am thinking about your ?'s and need to know the above.<<

Ok. There is no way I can tell "All the way down". But I can tell that from about 3 feet to about 9 feet there are bullet holes. I have not tested further away. I shoot CX 200's out of a 60 pound bow with 27 inch DL.

BZ>>I'll be back..Thanks Dave!<<

Thanks Dave, for your input, patience, and understanding.

Dwayne


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## DwayneR

Hello StoDr,

S>>Dwayne my holes are different with every bow. I usually skip paper tuning but if I am having a dificult time group tuning and walk back tuning sometimes I will paper tune and start form there.

I won't mention any names but there are many big name coaches out there that believe paper tuning is a waist of time for release shooters.<<

Thank you very much for your input Sto... you are now mentioning answers some of the very questions I am wondering about. Thus (I can assume here) that paper tuning for you is worthless, based upon the idea that each of your bows produce holes of a wide variance.

Dwayne


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## stodr

That is true, but I wouldn't call it a wide variance. In my opinion is has to do with the individual torque I put on a bow. If it has slightly different handle or geometry, that little bit of torque intorduced by me might be the reason. Remember this is only for releases. This is waht works for me soembody with better form it might that a bullet hole is great. But most top coaches I know even if they use paper tuning (which most skip that step) will then alot will walk back tune (some skip this step) then group tune and most also creep tune.


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## Poluke

Bow Zo - Thanks. I am in the mode of "retuning" my AR 34. I am spined correctly and I am searching for understanding of the "walk back" technique.
3rd and 4th axis adjustments are completely new to me BUT for now elevation and windage adjustments with the rest/launcher are first and foremost. Am I correct in assuming this?


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## Bow-zo

Hello,
I would like to start by saying stodr and I think and tune almost exactly alike. All the top archers and coaches I have talked to said that paper is for the ones that can get it to work for them and something to play with but not to rely on. The proof is in the groups at long range.
When I tune for bullet holes my groups are not near as good. I noticed in most all the tuning references about paper tuning they mention a high left tear (or maybe it was high right? I do not use it so I do not remember) is also good for a right handed release shooter. To me this is a better condition than a bullet hole as long as it is consistent. IMHO a arrow with a little sideways bias is more likely to fly the same every time than one that is leaving perfectly straight. Thus the high right tear. It is like using English when playing pool. Hitting the ball proper but "off Center". You know what the ball will do and where it will go when you hit it. A pool ball as well as a arrow when hit/shot straight on is subject to surrounding forces and can drift off more easily. If you stand a arrow on end straight up and down you do not know which way it will fall when you let go of it. If you lean it just a little it will fall the way you lean it every time. 
When I get a slight tear my bow seems to group at its best. This is just my opinion.
The end result should be tight groups not perfect bullet holes. Which brings me to another ? For DwayneR. 
Do you group tune or paper tune only? In all of your post you only mention bullet holes and no mention of how your bow groups. I do not want this to sound offensive O.K. But.. After rereading all your post it sounds like you are obsessed with bullet holes. 

D>>Ok...and my "First of all" statement <g>...I have never done this walkback tuning. I can consistantly produce Bullet holes out of my bows time and time again.
But..does it group well at long range?

I have said this before but I think it warrants repeating. If my bow is grouping well and I can hit the intended target at all distances I do not care what kind of a tear it made at 6’ to get there. My focus is on nice tight groups and keeping all my arrows in the gold at 90 meters not bullet holes. Not to say that it would not but what good is a bullet hole if I can not keep my arrows inside the 8 ring (hope for the 9) on a 122 cm. Target at 90 mtrs?


Well.. <g>... I am quite far from a Newbe <g>. But I am always open to different ideas and understanding those ideas

Sorry Dwayne. I was not thinking of you when I said newbe. I was referring to the new people that come to archery talk for advice.

D>>Now with the above said... I will explain to you Why I ask such a question, and why I say "Quazi" tune. With ( that I know of ) every compound I have shot, When I get bullet holes, My sights line up from right to left. Similar to the following Zeros. (representing my pins)

Thus I have one or two choices... To rotate my sight at a slight angle so that the pins "Line-up" straight, or.... to use the pins like they are and compensate for the slight drift to the left as the yardage increases. (I gave up on finding a nice sight to rotate <g>)

Now the *other* choice, is to move your rest... and if you move your rest, you are detuning your centershot... thus forcing the arrow to shoot more to the right (for my case). This will case slight "fishtailing". Thus my comment of Quazi tuning, or detuning from a bullet hole.

Now for the Paper comment... The question lies... Is it better to have a bullet hole or not??? If not, why? Would it not be better to have a arrow come out of a bow with very little bad behavior or not? This is my main question. 

This is IMHO totally a personal thing. Let me ask you this hypothetically speaking! Would you rather have a bullet hole and so,so grouping with your pins all lined up corner to corner? Or would you rather live with a slight tear and your pins all straight up and down and a bow that can hit ping pong balls at 60+ yards. Mind you I am not saying your bow will not do this now but I know mine will not with paper tuned bullet holes.
The point I am trying to make as well as answer your question is..“What do you “ think is better a bullet hole or a consistently good shooting bow that is forgiving and has the pins in a nice vertical line. What is more important.. To me nice vertical pins..To you maybe it is a bullet hole? Like I said it is a personal thing.
Now let me mention that in your case the above my or may not be true be. It could very well be you will have to live with the diagonal pins but it would be very hard for me to believe this to be true. I think you may have other issues. I would be willing to bet if you went back to square one in your set up and tried a little different approach you may see very different results. Maybe you set up some what the same I do not know but my approach is very similar to stodr’s.
I set my bow up in a vice and set all the scope and bubble settings first (1,2,3 axis) I eyeball the center shot to start. Nock a arrow and set the nocking point at 90 degrees or usually slightly high from 90 again I like a little bias on the shaft and it shoots very well this way. I then do my walk back to get it all in a vertical line.
I creep tune to get the cams in sync with my grip style . After I am satisfied with the cams I shoot several arrows at the same horizontal line I creep tuned with to see if I need to make some slight nock adjustment. Most of the time my arrows are all on the line and no nock adjustment is needed. I sight in from 50 or 60 yards and shoot some groups to see if I am satisfied with the set up thus far. If so I go on to the 4th axis as Oldpro calls it to get the arrow flying true to my scope. Once this last and final step is to my liking I start shooting some long range groups to confirm or deny that my set up and tuning is indeed finished. I get some sight marks for my AA program, make sight tapes and the long and tedious task of practice, practice, practice begins. (not really tedious..I love to shoot my bow) 
I make needed notes of the set up mark everything that can move, take digital pics of my bow and the components for reference and some pics of my targets along the way. I take pics of the practice targets also so when I move something I have a visual of the effects I can look at later if needed. 

BZ>>You are moving the rest to put it in line with the rest of the equipment in effect to get a good tear.<<

D>>The problem with this, is each person has a "different" grip. I can't pick up your bow and hit a bulleye with it, and I seriously doubt if you can do the same with mine. So essentually you are aligning the archer to the bow, along with aligning the equipment up. Do you agree or disagree, and why if you disagree?

Yes I agree but! Yes everyone is different but I believe you are aligning the bow to the archer..not the archer to the bow. Your form should remain the same regardless of the bow you pick up all else being equal. Compound for compound .. recurve for recurve.

No, you didn't do it wrong.. because it has worked for you and others. What maybe wrong for others, could be right for them. I am only trying to figure out how to go to 60 yards and hit Perfectly verticle with my equipement without doing one of the following: 1. "rotating" my sight a tad to the left. 2. Let the pins me, and shoot the pins with a slight skew to the left. 3. ADjust windage (which I never touch my sight in the first place, after it is set).

For you Dwayne you may not be able to. Like I said you may have to live with a slight right tear if you want your pins in a vertical line. To me that is better than perfect bullet hole.

But I know that if I moved my rest, My bullet holes are gone...a tear to the right will appear again. Because I will have to move that rest to the right to force my arrows to shoot properly (in line) at 60 yards.

Again it sounds like you are obsessed with getting bullet holes. Not grouping ability? Maybe you can clarify?

Stodr>>I have to disagree with your bullet hole analogy. Just because it shoots a bullet hole does not mean it is a perfect tune, so I don't believe you are detuning your bow. From my experience if I get a perfect bullet hole then usually have to move my rest 1/32-1/16 inch to the left, to shoot my best groups at 90M. It is a great way to start but you are not finished there. Again I have tested this in a hooter shooter. I can tune my bow to shoot bullets thru paper but the arrows will not group down range. I don't know why that is true probally because the arrow might not be perfically spined for the bow, but that is what I have found. I don't know all the elite archers but the ones I do know, do not pay any attention to paper tuning. 


Ditto for me! Although I do not think the spine is the problem. I think “my opinion” that a bow shoots better with bias on the shaft. I am of the school that thinks with todays bows and shaft technology spine is of little consequence as long as it is close “if you shoot a mechanical release” 

D>>If I am not reading you wrong, you have tested this in a Hooter. The problem with a Hooter, is that it grips the bow mechanically...all the same. You and I grip the bows differently. You cannot pick up my bow and shoot a bullseye... and I cannot pick up your bow and shoot a bullseye. Because (this is what I believe ok?) Each of us humans have a different grip on the bow... which produces a slightly different "Torque" when we let that arrow fly. Thus IMO I can hit a bullseye, but you will pick up my bow and end up shooting 5 to 8 inches to the left or right...(or something different than what I would be shooting).

You are right on with this one Dwayne. The one advantage of a H/S though is “It does grip or hold the bow the exact same way every time so all the human error is out. When you do testing as stodr has you get “REAL” results. If you move something you see the “REAL” effect of it. Such as group size and the like.
To me a H/S is best for arrow tuning not bow tuning.

D>>Though I have not tried this (I want you to know this ok?). I am fairly certain that if I shot my bow through a hooter, zeroed it in, and took it to a field, that my groups would not be that good either. I am sure that my arrows would be way off target too.

You are right here also. The H/S is not ment for you to tune your bow for final shooting. It is for testing and removing the human element so the test are more real and precise. And to make sure all your arrows fly the same so you can eliminate bad arrows “before” the tournament. LOL!

D>>What you have said, is paper tuning is somewhat worthless (a starting point, but not a "reality").
Yes I agree to this statement..

D>>What would be interesting, is shooting your bow through your hooter NOW!!! Since you have Walked tuned it to group WELL. (I do not have a hooter). What happens to the Bullet hole? Still there? high? low? right? left? and shooting the bow WITHOUT the hooter???? High, Low, left, right?

I have not tried this either but would bet the tear would be completely different due to the difference in grip.

D>>If a person groups fantastically at 60, 80 yards after a walk... What happens to the Bullet hole?

Please do not take offence Dwayne I am not trying to be a big shot or sound like a jerk but again it sounds like you are fixed on that bullet hole and do not care about anything else. When I first read this sentence I laughed out loud. (please no offence) Go back and read all of your post and count the number of times you said “my bullet hole” and the number of times you said “my groups”


D>>Well, they were both questions, and opinions...<g>. I always have a open mind, and if I can be shown via visual or knowledge (or some other way) that my opinion is wrong, Hey! I am all for it!

This is why I am trying to Understand the differences of the two tuning methods. One method (which is yours) would definitely destroy my bullet holes. Now...my question is... How important are the bullet holes, and why? The next message was from StoDr...His response was "He knows some high coaches that say Bullet holes is a waste of time to use on tuning a bow. Also the mention of different tears for different bows.

This brings up another important question... How important *IS* the bullet hole?? And this is the answer I am trying to justify. 

1. Shouldn't that arrow leave that bow with as little variance as possible for proper smooth flight? If so, wouldn't that be a bullet hole? (or close).
.

I would say yes and no. You want little variance & smooth flight but only if it groups well at long distance.
I realize you are asking questions and trying to see this whole concept to the walk back. I can very much appreciate that you are wanting to understand the difference . Hope I do not make it worse.
The bottom line is how important is your bullet hole to you.
To me and you have heard others it is all but worthless. The bottom line is grouping ability. You will absolutely here others say that paper tuning and bullet holes are a must and that is O.K. if it works for them great. People can post all the objections and pithy comments they want but it will not change the fact that paper tuning is not for all. There are (my opinion) better ways. At least for me and the others you read in this thread that tried it and thought it work very well for them. (Again the reason I started this thread To help the frustrated) 


My compound bows, I shoot Mechanical... MY recurve bows, I shoot fingers. Even with my finger release, by aiming has the same slight right to left windage as my yardage goes out.


BZ>>2. Do you get a bullet hole with your paper tuning at all distances? <<
(are you sure the arrow is flying straight from the time it leaves the bow all the way to the Bullseye?) I am thinking about your ?'s and need to know the above.<<

Ok. There is no way I can tell "All the way down". But I can tell that from about 3 feet to about 9 feet there are bullet holes. I have not tested further away. I shoot CX 200's out of a 60 pound bow with 27 inch DL

The reason I ask these 2 ? Is that for many people a bullet hole is there at one distance maybe 3-9 feet but not at 5 yards so it means very little. Even a fishtailing arrow will bullet hole at the distance the fishtailing is at a null. You see what I am getting at.

One thing everyone will agree on is tight groups are the bottom line.
I will be waiting to hear from you and the comments about your “groups”

D>>Thanks Dave, for your input, patience, and understanding.

My pleasure Dwayne. That is what we all(or most) come here for. Weather it be to get help or to help or just the chance to talk about what we love. Thanks for giving me the chance to explain myself. 
I hope I covered your questions.
Dave!


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## DwayneR

Hello StoDr,

@ StoDr >Curious... How are bare shafts flying from your equipement?


@ Dave >I am still waiting! <g>


Dwayne


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## zenarch

This thread has really gotten skewed, from a discussion of whether you need to criticaly adjust your centershot to achieve verticaly aligned groups, to a bullet hole arguement.
If I read stodr's tests correctly, that two full turns of the centershot adjustment only made a 1" difference at 80yds in vertical group alignment, I think my point is proved, that a centershot misadjustment won't keep you from shooting good line from 20 to 80yd. My hat is off to anyone who can see a 1" shift in groups when actually shooting the bow. I'm not even sure the HS can be set up that critically. To shoot at 20 and 80yds, I'm sure a sight elevation change was made, so that throws another varialble into the mix.

Group size is another matter altogether. Here, centershot may indeed play a noticable part but I don't think I can shoot a consistent enough group to be able see it myself.

My current set up was done according to my last post and it tested out well on level ground and on the steepest hill I could find. Now that I'm satisfied, I'll try to do some further vertical and horizontal group tuning but, as I've said, I just don't think I'm steady enough to see differences that are REPEATABLE.

Good luck to all with your prefered method of tuning. If you trust it, stick with it.
Joe B.


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## DwayneR

Hello Zenarch,

Z


> This thread has really gotten skewed, from a discussion of whether you need to criticaly adjust your centershot to achieve verticaly aligned groups, to a bullet hole arguement.


 I disagree with you on this. I think in many ways, (until proven otherwise) they are hand in hand.

StoDr has now said that his bows have different tears for his bows. Moving that rest messes with Centershot, Messes with arrow groupings, Messes with Arrow projection. We need to have excellent groups for precision Archery, and that may or maynot be hand in hand with "Centershot" of the bow. Just a thought....

Dwayne


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## Oldpro

*Why?*

Dealing with a small but vitally important part of this post: If a person sets up their bow to shoot the best groups possible, why on God's green earth would they mess with the arrow rest to align it with the sight? I would class that as not too intelligent. No offense intended! :smile: My personal preference is to group tune (I can't get a bullet hole in 20 years)  or walk up tune my arrow. Then move the sight to align it with the arrow path. (4th Axis) This adjustment can be done with shims. That is if you have a lot of time on your hands.  I think the main thing is to tune your bow to shoot the best groups possible. This is the best and least critical position for your rest to be in. (That is why it groups best there) ????? It is absolutely unthinkable to then de-tune to accomplish any other tuning function. That is unless you like to give your competition a break.


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## stodr

Oldpro said:


> Dealing with a small but vitally important part of this post: If a person sets up their bow to shoot the best groups possible, why on God's green earth would they mess with the arrow rest to align it with the sight? I would class that as not too intelligent. No offense intended! :smile: My personal preference is to group tune (I can't get a bullet hole in 20 years)  or walk up tune my arrow. Then move the sight to align it with the arrow path. (4th Axis) This adjustment can be done with shims. That is if you have a lot of time on your hands.  I think the main thing is to tune your bow to shoot the best groups possible. This is the best and least critical position for your rest to be in. (That is why it groups best there) ????? It is absolutely unthinkable to then de-tune to accomplish any other tuning function. That is unless you like to give your competition a break.


I am not sure I have read anybody say move the rest for the sight. It is the other way around. What I and Bozo is saying is part of a group tune process is the walkback method. We shoot at 20 then 80 you set your rest then adjust your sight to hit on the line. Then make adjustment to the rest as needed and then reset your sight to hit the line again, then see if you hit the line at 80 yards also. I do this until I find a rest position that allows my arrow to hit the line at 20 and 80.

Joe at 80 yards you probally can't see 1" difference unless you have a line there. If the bulk of your arrows hit on the left side of the line with the center of that group being 1 inch you would notice. It takes 10-15 shots to get enough data to tell on the long ranges. If it was good your left and rights would be centered on the line. For Example somebody that shoots a 10" group left and right at eighty yards. A good center shoot would have most arrows withen 2-3 inch circle right on the line with a few farther out on each side. If the center shot was off they would have a bigger group but they would also have alot more of the arrows on one side of the line then the other. The better shooter you are the less arrows you should have to shoot to get a reasonble amount of data.

Dwayne I have not bare hafted my arrows.


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## Bow-zo

*Waiting?*

@ Dave >I am still waiting! <g>

Dwayne, What are you waiting for?? I am cofused? Did your post although dated today go up before mine from last night?

Man that OldPro is good aint he? He said in about 5 lines what it took me a half dozen 2-3 page post to say.
By the way everyone if you did not already know this his walk up and the walk back accomplish the same task. It puts the 20 and 80 yard arrows in a vertical line.

I do not think you have proved anything Joe. Just because you can not tell any differants in your long range groups from "Your" tuning method does not mean the rest of us can not. One inch at 80 yards will cost you a ton of points at 90 meters. It will be much more than one inch when shot from a real body. Go back and look at my pics. You can see the holes from the arrows shot before and after moving the rest. How much more "proof" could there be than that. 
By the way I am glad you questioned the method right at the begining. That is what got this thead where it is. So if there are any complaints about where it has gone or where it winds up it is all your fault. LOL!
Take care Joe. Thanks..D 

stodr>>I am not sure I have read anybody say move the rest for the sight. It is the other way around. What I and Bozo is saying is part of a group tune process is the walkback method. We shoot at 20 then 80 you set your rest then adjust your sight to hit on the line. Then make adjustment to the rest as needed and then reset your sight to hit the line again, then see if you hit the line at 80 yards also. I do this until I find a rest position that allows my arrow to hit the line at 20 and 80.

What stodr has described here (at least in my case) is once this tuning at 20 & 80 is done I know my groups will be at their best left to right or the left to right spread will be at its minimum. Then tiller tuning and creep tuning will take care of the top to bottom spread. Result ... groups are nice and round and tight as I can make them.

I do not think it is skewed but we sure have covered some ground. But that is a good thing I think. 
It makes this sight what it is..a place to learn and grow in archery and very interesting to say the least.

Dave!


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## Oldpro

*Move the whole sight!*

stodr,

That is exactly what I am saying. Do not change the position of the arrow rest but in stead move the entire sight by shimming or whatever so that the bubble is perpendicular to the arrow path. If you only adjust windage, the bubble will not be square to the arrow path and you WILL miss in the hills. It is easy to check. Sight in at 20 yards and adjust your windage. Then shoot a long down hill target and if you do not hit in line with absolute dead center, you need to move the WHOLE sight to get the proper alignment.


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## zenarch

I guess it's time for me to hush up on this one, I'm severely outnumbered. Gene, I've never used the centershot adjustment other than to initially set up the center of my shaft with the center of my cam, so in my own dumb way I guess I stumbled on a use for it. Thanks for making me aware of the 4th axis. I always did think that there should be another step after the sight leveler and you made it understandable to me.
Hope to see some of you guys in Yankton.
Joe B.


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## francis

Gene 
I might get hit on the head for asking this  

but ... first i will say that the method you are describing makes most sense to me , tune for tightest groups, leave it there! Then do what you need to your sight after that.

However just for arguments sake, do you think the walkbalk tuning (changing the rest postion and the resighting, etc...) is putting the arrow path in line with the sight path the way it currently exists? I am thinking it might ,since it does put everything in line, (although i realize that may not mean for sure thats where the arrows will group best ).


I know what Joe is saying , it seems ok, but then you still need to adjust 4th axis

I am trying to figure out what Bowzo might be saying, I am not sure if he means his walkbalk tuning DOES align the arrow path to the sight plane (essentially the 4 th axis) , or if he is saying it DOES NOT align the arrow/sight path, but instead is just another method of horizontal group tuning? I think this question being answered might clear up a lot of confusion.....so BOWZO whats the answer my friend LOL!


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## francis

Joe thanks for all that work on your drawings you did a great JOB!!!


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## Oldpro

*Check out Joes drawings*

The walk back tuning that is posted in this thread was a little too deep for me, and maybe too time consuming. (Old shakey bow arm)  All I am saying is this: Check out Joe's drawings! Drawing A. is what you need to have in your setup! Everything square and plumb. (No problems in the hills) Drawing D. is what you could possibly have with walk back tuning if you move the arrow rest and windage, plus the group would get bigger. (Lots of lefts and rights in the hills) In stead of moving the rest, if you leave the rest alone once you have your best arrow grouping, and move (swing horizontally) the whole sight in stead of windage, (shim?) you would eventually be square and plumb, and have the best grouping set-up. Does this make any sense?

Joe,

Just because you are going to go play, doesn't mean you are off the hook! :wink:


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## francis

I copied this from Joes earlier post:

4 - Now go to a 50yd target and do the following (this is the test Oldpro uses. See the 4th axis thread in the Mfgrs. Forum.) Move your sight bar all the way in and adjust your sight and windage to put you in the middle. Note the elevation setting. Now slide your sight bar to full extension and readjust your elevation to hit spot high. If your centershot is too far left, as seen in Fig. "D", your pin will be further right when the sight is extended and you'll hit to the left of the spot. Note the elevation setting so we can return to it. Now move the centershot 1 turn to the right and do the sight in/sight out test again (don't forget to change your elevation when you slide the bar in and out). If the two groups got closer you went the right way. If they get further apart go back with the centershot and then go a turn the other way. Keep adjusting the centershot until the groups come together, then adjust your windage to center them in the spot. Move your sight bar to where you like it and lock down your centershot adjustment.

5 - Group tune, if you think you need to, at a distance you can be comfortable at by using tiller, nocking point height or bow weight but not centershot.


Joe.... my take on this is that you are saying this is the way of setting the 4th axis "reverse" of how Gene would do it.

Joe, Now this being said and understood, What do you think the walkbalk method of Bowzo gives you? (because we do see his method does align everything

Would you arrive at picture "d" with no real assurance that the 4th axis is correct?

Or....... ( the way I see it --if you are correct about bowzo being off at longer distances because of sight leveling -4 th axis -because of elevation changes when pointing the bow uphill from 20 - 80 yards )when he does adjust the rest to bring things in line, he is (whether realizing it or not) is adjusting his arrow path to be parallel to his sight path (4th axis).

and now once bow zo finishes this method, to fine tune his groups he must now not touch the arrow rest but work on such things as point/bow weight, nocking point etc... to get a finer group tune if possible, but dont touch the rest again as this will mess up the 4th axis that was just set by the walkbalk tuning!!!!!!!!!

Joe if you agree with what i have said here, then I have just won the lottery :mg: and I totally see what your saying makes sense ,and i can view this thing from everyones angle now and put it all together

Just tell me you agree ....ok? please? haha :wink: 
I really need some sleep lol


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## zenarch

Francis,
You managed to suck me back into this. I think you have a clear picture of why I think BZ sees a vertical mis-alignment from 20 to 60yd. He stated in one of his posts, however, that he checked the elevation change of his sight when shooting 20 to 60yd with his bow mounted in a Hooter Shooter and that it wasn't enough of a change to cause his bubble to wander off and cause an unwanted cant in his bow. 

The thing that still has not been explained to me in pictures, is why BZ has this mis-alignment in the first place. I tried to prove in the pictures that it wasn't because the arrow was not traveling in a straight line when it hit at 20yd and diverging further from the center as the distance to the target increased. Now I'd like to see some diagrams which prove that the centershot being too far left will cause you to be on at 20yd but left at 60yd. BZ?

I'm also not sure if the walk back takes care of the vertical mis-alignment and achieves the smallest groups all at once. If it doesn't then one is being sacrificed for the sake of the other.

Gene,
You were right, I can't get away. Your set up steps sound exactly right except for the fact that you never address this vertical mis-alignment which BZ says is caused by a misadjusted centershot. Assuming you're on level ground and you hold the bubble in the middle and use just the 20 yd sight pin, do you think you can be dead center at 20yd and off to the left at 60 because of the arrow diverging down range due to a centershot which is too far left?
Joe B.


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## cloquet

Does anybody walk back tune with broadheads? Broadheads are touchy compared to field points and everything has to be perfect, seems the next step after walk back with field points would be do the same with broadheads. Many times arrows will shoot fine with field points but put on a broadhead and yuck. Anybody know will walk back with broadheads tell you about arrow spine? What happens if way to much spine? On the TAP program Where do you want your spine for broadheads? I find I need at least in the olive green or even in the start of the yellow. Great thread by the way.


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## MNmike

*paper, bulletholes, how about that nock travel?*

Let me ask a question. A single cam bow, at least most, don't have level nock travel. Now to me knowing this, wouldn't paper tuning at 6' for bullet holes be a waist of time? Until the arrow stops deviating at the start of it's flight (due to nock travel) you would be correcting for that when you shoot paper at 6'.


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## stodr

Oldpro said:


> The walk back tuning that is posted in this thread was a little too deep for me, and maybe too time consuming. (Old shakey bow arm)  All I am saying is this: Check out Joe's drawings! Drawing A. is what you need to have in your setup! Everything square and plumb. (No problems in the hills) Drawing D. is what you could possibly have with walk back tuning if you move the arrow rest and windage, plus the group would get bigger. (Lots of lefts and rights in the hills) In stead of moving the rest, if you leave the rest alone once you have your best arrow grouping, and move (swing horizontally) the whole sight in stead of windage, (shim?) you would eventually be square and plumb, and have the best grouping set-up. Does this make any sense?
> 
> Joe,
> 
> Just because you are going to go play, doesn't mean you are off the hook! :wink:


Oldpro that can not be a factor in Walkback tuning because you ar not moving the sight at all when you change distances. This is done on level gound. What you are talking about is after the bow is shooting the best groups it can for you, then you make sure the sight is set in the manner you are talking about, so when you move the elevation of the sight eveything stays in the same vertical plane.

According to your method you can put the rest all the way on one side, and all the way up and you can adjust your sight to shoot good groups, and that is just not true. Why would you even try and center you rest when you first put it on if your method worked? Because you know it has to be centered to the best grouping. And I and Bozo have explained how we and many others find the best center for us. Then we move on to adjusting the sight.


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## stodr

zenarch said:


> Francis,
> You managed to suck me back into this. I think you have a clear picture of why I think BZ sees a vertical mis-alignment from 20 to 60yd. He stated in one of his posts, however, that he checked the elevation change of his sight when shooting 20 to 60yd with his bow mounted in a Hooter Shooter and that it wasn't enough of a change to cause his bubble to wander off and cause an unwanted cant in his bow.
> 
> The thing that still has not been explained to me in pictures, is why BZ has this mis-alignment in the first place. I tried to prove in the pictures that it wasn't because the arrow was not traveling in a straight line when it hit at 20yd and diverging further from the center as the distance to the target increased. Now I'd like to see some diagrams which prove that the centershot being too far left will cause you to be on at 20yd but left at 60yd. BZ?
> 
> I'm also not sure if the walk back takes care of the vertical mis-alignment and achieves the smallest groups all at once. If it doesn't then one is being sacrificed for the sake of the other.
> 
> Gene,
> You were right, I can't get away. Your set up steps sound exactly right except for the fact that you never address this vertical mis-alignment which BZ says is caused by a misadjusted centershot. Assuming you're on level ground and you hold the bubble in the middle and use just the 20 yd sight pin, do you think you can be dead center at 20yd and off to the left at 60 because of the arrow diverging down range due to a centershot which is too far left?
> Joe B.


Joe I don't think that the 20 yard shot is not deviating from the 20 yard shot it is just that you set your sight for it to hit there. You have to start from a known point to see if your arrows are deviating.

I don't think BZ was advocating the walk back method for vertical alignment. He was telling how he does it for vertical. He basically picks a distance and shoots at a horizontal line and sees where most of his misses are. Then tries to adjust his bow to get the smallest vertical grouping.

What gets me on this whole thread with people saying set it and leave it. How do you know you set it correctly to start with? I guarentee you that those guys shooitng perfect field scores are not just eyeballing their center shot and leaving it.


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## DwayneR

Hello BZ,

Dr>@ Dave >I am still waiting! <g>

BZ>>Dwayne, What are you waiting for?? I am cofused? Did your post although dated today go up before mine from last night?<<

You mentioned you were going to get back on a post...Maybe my post hit before yours did...

BZ>>Man that OldPro is good aint he? He said in about 5 lines what it took me a half dozen 2-3 page post to say.
By the way everyone if you did not already know this his walk up and the walk back accomplish the same task. It puts the 20 and 80 yard arrows in a vertical line.<<

I think both of you are good...EAch has a different way to look at it. What I don't understand, if someone "Shims" their sight, it should make no difference at all, because moving your windage is the same as "shimming" the sight... Or am I misunderstanding something? The only way I know of to "align" my pins in a row, would be to "turn the sight counter-clockwise about 3 to 4 degrees....Most sights that I know of, cannot do such a thing. My question is, What I am talking about (rotating my sight), is this what you all call shimming?


BZ>>What stodr has described here (at least in my case) is once this tuning at 20 & 80 is done I know my groups will be at their best left to right or the left to right spread will be at its minimum. Then tiller tuning and creep tuning will take care of the top to bottom spread. Result ... groups are nice and round and tight as I can make them.<<

I think I gotcha now... go to 20 yards and move the rest to where the horizontal groups are the absolute best... then go to the 80 yards and do the same thing. (Micro tune the rest). Then at 80 yards, micro tune your tiller for the vertical group. Correct? THEN and ONLY then adjust your sight for dead on.

Dwayne


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## stodr

DwayneR said:


> I think I gotcha now... go to 20 yards and move the rest to where the horizontal groups are the absolute best... then go to the 80 yards and do the same thing. (Micro tune the rest). Then at 80 yards, micro tune your tiller for the vertical group. Correct? THEN and ONLY then adjust your sight for dead on.
> 
> Dwayne


 Dwayne That is pretty close. I don't micro tune at 20 I just shoot there a couple of times to set the sight on the line and use as a reference point. I micro tune at 80 because at that distance you can see the differences easier when you move the rest. At 20 the differences are there it is very hard to see because they are minute compared to at 80. 

I would also like to add that Oldpro and Joe have been doing this a long time and might know by sight what their center shot should be. I know of one pro he is in his 60's that has done is so often he can set his and be right on most of the time.


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## zenarch

stodr said:


> Joe I don't think that the 20 yard shot is not deviating from the 20 yard shot it is just that you set your sight for it to hit there. You have to start from a known point to see if your arrows are deviating.
> 
> I don't think BZ was advocating the walk back method for vertical alignment. He was telling how he does it for vertical. He basically picks a distance and shoots at a horizontal line and sees where most of his misses are. Then tries to adjust his bow to get the smallest vertical grouping.
> 
> What gets me on this whole thread with people saying set it and leave it. How do you know you set it correctly to start with? I guarentee you that those guys shooitng perfect field scores are not just eyeballing their center shot and leaving it.


Stodr,
Show me a drawing of what you think is happening when you hit at 20 but are off to the left or right at 80.

Look at the original picture that BZ posted. It shows holes to the left of the string which were made before he adjusted his centershot and he talks about them in a later post. So he was indeed walkback tuning to center his groups at 20 and 60. The premise of walkback tuning is that the position of your centershot adjustment will cause a left or right group as your distance increases due to your arrow path being on an angle. I argued with that premise in a post called "Walkback tuning is a waste of time" and until someone can show me, in a drawing, how this looks, I'll continue to doubt that it's an angled arrow path causing his left misses.
Joe B.


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## stodr

Joe I don't know how to add the picture I have drawn to the board.


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## stodr

zenarch said:


> Stodr,
> Show me a drawing of what you think is happening when you hit at 20 but are off to the left or right at 80.
> 
> Look at the original picture that BZ posted. It shows holes to the left of the string which were made before he adjusted his centershot and he talks about them in a later post. So he was indeed walkback tuning to center his groups at 20 and 60. The premise of walkback tuning is that the position of your centershot adjustment will cause a left or right group as your distance increases due to your arrow path being on an angle. I argued with that premise in a post called "Walkback tuning is a waste of time" and until someone can show me, in a drawing, how this looks, I'll continue to doubt that it's an angled arrow path causing his left misses.
> Joe B.


Then why do they add adjustments to a rest. According to your method you could just lay it on the shelf that has a notch cut in it.


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## Bow-zo

*Please! Please!*

Please stop and think for just one minute..........................O.K now if you read Oldpro's tuning tips you will see he does his "Walk Up" BEFORE any other tuning is done that involves shooting.
AGAIN! His walk up and the walk back are the "SAME" method. Again..Done BEFORE any other tuning.
This will put the arrow in its best vertical path by moving the rest to where the arrow comes out of the bow in a straight line to the target. This is done on level ground only. Once this is done "YOU DO NOT MOVE THE REST ANY MORE" you only move the sight to get windage.
When you are happy with your windage you shoot some groups to see if they are what you want. Adjust the nock or tiller tune to shrink the group vertically if needed.
AFTER and only "AFTER" you have done all your tuning you set the "4th axis"
by shimming the mount that holds the sight bar so sight bar will swing "in" or "out" to put it in the same plane "Parallel" to the arrow shaft. If this is not done you will have a nice vertical line on flat ground only. If you point the bow up or down hill the bubble will float to one side. You will then cant the bow to bring the bubble back to center and your arrow will miss the center. This is not the same as 3rd axis by the way which will make your bubble drift if the scope housing is not square to the sight bar.
You guys are missing the point that Oldpro is doing with his "walk up" (again before any other tuning takes place that involves shooting) what stodr and I are doing with our walk back (also before any other shoot tuning is done) 
How's that Gene? I still could not say it 5 lines.LOL!

Joe i will try and make a drawing for you. You will see how incredibly simple it is once you see it on Paper. I know what you are saying that a arrow once shot will fall in a straight line to the ground and you are correct. But because the sight is mounted several inches above the arrow they have to be lined up. Trust me..lol! Moving only the sight will not do it because the nock does not move with the rest. And because of that the arrow tip will move right and left but not the nock. It is a pivot point for the arrow as I said earlier. THE ONLY WAY TO PUT THE ARROW ON THE PEEP TO BULLSEYE STRING PATH IS TO MOVE THE REST. If you do not move the rest the tip of the arrow is either right or left of that line to the bullseye. If the tip of the arrow is off that line the rest of the arrow will follow.
Drawing to come. Dave!


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## Bow-zo

Somthing is wrong with my computer. I can not copy my drawing from my paint program over to A/T. Come to think of it I can not add attachments either. When I hit the attachment button it gives me a box with a red X in it.
I am useing Windows XP anybody have a idea?
Funny thing is I type up most of my post useing word pad and then copy it over to A/T. So that works OK. I copied the drawing over to word pad but can not copy it over to A/T from word pad or the paint program???
Maybe the center shot is off in my computer..LOL!


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## JAVI

Bow-zo said:


> Somthing is wrong with my computer. I can not copy my drawing from my paint program over to A/T. Come to think of it I can not add attachments either. When I hit the attachment button it gives me a box with a red X in it.
> I am useing Windows XP anybody have a idea?
> Funny thing is I type up most of my post useing word pad and then copy it over to A/T. So that works OK. I copied the drawing over to word pad but can not copy it over to A/T from word pad or the paint program???
> Maybe the center shot is off in my computer..LOL!


E-mail it to me and i'll post it... see pm... :beer:


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## JAVI

*Here ya' go...*

.


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## JAVI

*And another*

..


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## Bow-zo

*Thanks Javi! Hope this is clear!*

In the first drawing you see a straight line to target and a line veering left.
The straight line will represent the "SHOOTING CENTER" of the bow.
The shooting center is where the string will want to fall every time we shoot.
Now this will be differant for each of us because of grip torque and string torque brought on from the release we use. 
The left veering line would reresent the arrow line if the center shot is off to the left.

Drawing two you see three lines. The "shooting center" the arrow veering left because of misadjusted center shot and a third all important line parallel to the shooting center line. This line is a straight plumb line down to the ground as if you hung a string from your sight with a weight on it just like the one hung from the 20yd. arrows.
You can see a second sight I drew where the plumb line and the left veering line intersect. This is where your sight would be if you adjusted for windage only. You would now have to swing your bow to the right to be on target . Everyone say you are with me so far. LOL!
Although the arrow will fall in a straight line to the ground as Joe said it will also continue veering left as it gets farther way from the intersection or as you "Walk Back" This is why you see very little change when moving the rest at 20. You are very near the intersection at 20 yds.
The shooting center of the bow is now to the right also. That is why it is very important to use the same pin (20yd.) at all distances. 
The arrow "HAS" to fall on the plumb line to hit center at all distances.
The only way to get it there is to move the rest to the right. Now in so doing the arrow now pointing down the plumb line and the shooting center of the bow will also fall in a straight line to the ground and follow the string we hung on the 20yd. target. Now move the sight back to the right so it to is in that line. The action of moving the rest at 40 and the sight at 20 will eventually line them both up on the plumb line and the shooting center of the bow. The better you can shoot the faster this will happen. The farther back (80yds.) you go the finer you can adjust the rest. 
Now your bow is shooting as straight as it can with your grip and release torque included. It is very unlikely that your vertical grouping will not be as good as it can be also. If it is not then you may have draw length issues.

To answer francis ? this does not correct for 4th axis. That still has to be done so you will have the same results when shooting up and down hill.
I sure hope this helps clear things up.

To answer Dwayne..You do not move the rest or try to group tune at 20yd. You only use 20yds. to rezero the sight after moving it at the longer distance.
Move sight at 20 move rest at 40-80 repeat untill arrows hit line at both distances DO NOT MOVE REST AFTER THIS! Then Move nock or tiller tune (same thing) to get vertical grouping to a minimum. Sight in the bow for all yardages and then do the 4th axis.
Dwayne do you set your third axis before you paper tune? You need to set all the sight axises except 4th before paper or walk back tuning. Also read that new post about bullet hole and perfect tune if you have not. You will see those guys do not get best grouping with a bullet hole.

Have fun all..Dave! 
Dave!


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## zenarch

Bow-zo,
It's not getting through to me yet. I'm working on understanding it. You should use another font in your Wordpad, too, I don't understand Old English too well :smile: :smile: 

I don't agree that the walk-up and walk-back are doing the same thing. Gene is minimizing arrow oscillation which from 10yds or less could cause a miss, as the tip of the arrow swings back and forth along its intended path.
You are correcting for an arrow flying in a straight path but at an angle to your sight line. Totaly different thing.
Joe B.
P.S. I'm leaving tomorrow so I'll have to catch up when I get back.


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## cloquet

Can someone explain why centershot is different for the same arrrow when you change from field point to broadhead? I walk back tuned for field points and got it as good as possible. Then I did the some thing with the same arrow but with a Muzzy 4 blade of the same weight. Both shot great out to 40 yards but the rest (whisker biscuit) had to be left of the ideal position for field points to get the best results with the Muzzys. Shooting field points with the rest in the broadhead position the field points impact left at 20 yards and right at 40 yards. Not a lot but why? Possible spine issue?


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## JAVI

cloquet said:


> Can someone explain why centershot is different for the same arrrow when you change from field point to broadhead? I walk back tuned for field points and got it as good as possible. Then I did the some thing with the same arrow but with a Muzzy 4 blade of the same weight. Both shot great out to 40 yards but the rest (whisker biscuit) had to be left of the ideal position for field points to get the best results with the Muzzys. Shooting field points with the rest in the broadhead position the field points impact left at 20 yards and right at 40 yards. Not a lot but why? Possible spine issue?


Adding the broadhead changed the dynamic spine of the arrow.


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## stodr

zenarch said:


> Bow-zo,
> It's not getting through to me yet. I'm working on understanding it. You should use another font in your Wordpad, too, I don't understand Old English too well :smile: :smile:
> 
> I don't agree that the walk-up and walk-back are doing the same thing. Gene is minimizing arrow oscillation which from 10yds or less could cause a miss, as the tip of the arrow swings back and forth along its intended path.
> You are correcting for an arrow flying in a straight path but at an angle to your sight line. Totaly different thing.
> Joe B.
> P.S. I'm leaving tomorrow so I'll have to catch up when I get back.


Joe I think it is the same method. I believe that when the arrow corrects back to center following the oscillation is when it ends up on the angled path, instead on the pumb bob path. So what our are doin is looking for the point on the rest where the arrow will recover straight ahead. Just like a the walk up method. I have never had any l/r problems on short shoots after the walkback method.


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## Poluke

Bow-zo said:


> In the first drawing you see a straight line to target and a line veering left.
> The straight line will represent the "SHOOTING CENTER" of the bow.
> The shooting center is where the string will want to fall every time we shoot.
> Now this will be differant for each of us because of grip torque and string torque brought on from the release we use.
> The left veering line would reresent the arrow line if the center shot is off to the left.
> 
> Drawing two you see three lines. The "shooting center" the arrow veering left because of misadjusted center shot and a third all important line parallel to the shooting center line. This line is a straight plumb line down to the ground as if you hung a string from your sight with a weight on it just like the one hung from the 20yd. arrows.
> You can see a second sight I drew where the plumb line and the left veering line intersect. This is where your sight would be if you adjusted for windage only. You would now have to swing your bow to the right to be on target . Everyone say you are with me so far. LOL!
> Although the arrow will fall in a straight line to the ground as Joe said it will also continue veering left as it gets farther way from the intersection or as you "Walk Back" This is why you see very little change when moving the rest at 20. You are very near the intersection at 20 yds.
> The shooting center of the bow is now to the right also. That is why it is very important to use the same pin (20yd.) at all distances.
> The arrow "HAS" to fall on the plumb line to hit center at all distances.
> The only way to get it there is to move the rest to the right. Now in so doing the arrow now pointing down the plumb line and the shooting center of the bow will also fall in a straight line to the ground and follow the string we hung on the 20yd. target. Now move the sight back to the right so it to is in that line. The action of moving the rest at 40 and the sight at 20 will eventually line them both up on the plumb line and the shooting center of the bow. The better you can shoot the faster this will happen. The farther back (80yds.) you go the finer you can adjust the rest.
> Now your bow is shooting as straight as it can with your grip and release torque included. It is very unlikely that your vertical grouping will not be as good as it can be also. If it is not then you may have draw length issues.
> 
> To answer francis ? this does not correct for 4th axis. That still has to be done so you will have the same results when shooting up and down hill.
> I sure hope this helps clear things up.
> 
> To answer Dwayne..You do not move the rest or try to group tune at 20yd. You only use 20yds. to rezero the sight after moving it at the longer distance.
> Move sight at 20 move rest at 40-80 repeat untill arrows hit line at both distances DO NOT MOVE REST AFTER THIS! Then Move nock or tiller tune (same thing) to get vertical grouping to a minimum. Sight in the bow for all yardages and then do the 4th axis.
> Dwayne do you set your third axis before you paper tune? You need to set all the sight axises except 4th before paper or walk back tuning. Also read that new post about bullet hole and perfect tune if you have not. You will see those guys do not get best grouping with a bullet hole.
> 
> Have fun all..Dave!
> Dave!


This writing plus the drawings has "increased the wattage on my bulb" Thanks for taking the the time to write all that you have. I now "get it". Yet I still want to bust one more off ya. In the drawing #2 if the string is the anchor point and the rest is moved right then all lines will converge and become one line. 2nd axis? Third and fourth axis involve the rotation of the site guard body with pins both in a horizontal and vertical plane?


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## cloquet

Javi. Since the broadhead changed the dynamic spine of my arrow enough to require a different centershot from field points would I be better off to use an arrow with a stiffer spine. Would the stiffer spine minimize that effect? Would there be any adverse effects? Question on the 4th axis. I get the impression from all the posts that this is something that applies only to adjustable sights that adjust closer to and farther away from the shooter, not to the sights that an archer would use in a normal hunting situation. True? Also on the third axis, I use an anchor sight (like a no-peep) which tells you when everything is square and plumb. I do not have any bubble levels on my sight. Should I just forget about the 3rd axis also?


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## Poluke

zenarch said:


> Guys,
> I've done some testing on this and I'm able to mis-adjust my centershot, correct with windage on the sight at 20 yds and hit the line at longer distances.
> I doub the idea of the arrow hitting the spot at 20 yds but not traveling straight when it hits.If it hasn't straightened up at 20 yds, your bow needs some work. The arrow still follows a straight path anyway even if it's not flying well. It may swing from left to right but the main result is a 0 deviation from the straight line.
> I need someone to explain how the arrow hits dead center at 20 yds and then mysteriously changes it's path to a different line heading toward the 40 yd target. The only thing I can think of is that you're not really right at 20 yds.
> I do agree that an initial kick can cause a miss at short yardage but once the arrow has recovered and is going straight it's path is set till it hits the ground.
> It's an interesting thread though and kind of fits in with Old Pro's 4th axis thread. Thanks for contributing your ideas.
> I also think that Bow-Zo aims at the spot at all distances and not at the string. The string is there just to show you the results. Aiming at a vertical line is helpful, however, when adjusting your windage at any distance.
> Joe B.


The way I understand it is there is no zeroing done at the 20 yd mark it is just a point of impact where the arrow is hitting on a left to right horizontal plane and the arrows path of flight is in a straight line.

If you move further away from the point of impact at 20 yards and your arrow is coming off the rest in a straight line and if the straight line is pointing to the left of optimal center shot, the arrows path will continue to deviate to the left and arrive at the target face to the left of the original 20 yard point. Ditto to the right. The arrow must come off the rest as straight as the path of the string drop and continue down range within that straight line to be ZERO. 

Therefore in my dimly lit attic of a mind the only way possible to align the arrow to the string drop and truely center off the bow is to adjust the rest.

Am I a babbler or what?


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## JAVI

cloquet said:


> Javi. Since the broadhead changed the dynamic spine of my arrow enough to require a different centershot from field points would I be better off to use an arrow with a stiffer spine. Would the stiffer spine minimize that effect? Would there be any adverse effects? Question on the 4th axis. I get the impression from all the posts that this is something that applies only to adjustable sights that adjust closer to and farther away from the shooter, not to the sights that an archer would use in a normal hunting situation. True? Also on the third axis, I use an anchor sight (like a no-peep) which tells you when everything is square and plumb. I do not have any bubble levels on my sight. Should I just forget about the 3rd axis also?


The easiest thing to do is just turn down the poundage slightly, to bring the impact point together. Although you can also trim a bit from the arrow length or add weight to the nock end of the arrow in the form of longer heavier vanes or wraps. 
Or if you are using the bow as a hunting bow primarily and are happy with the grouping of your arrows then simply move the sight to compensate...

As to 3rd & 4th axis... the third is already adjusted with your No-peep if your groups hit the same POI (left & right) at 20 and 60 yards when shooting up & down hill (be sure to bend at the waist instead of dropping or raising the arm). 

4th axis is something I've adjusted for years on my field bows... and some of my hunting bows if I used an extension on the sight bar such as a Copper John Pro II... it will allow you to slide the bar in and out without further adjustment to the sight... and no it isn't something commonly worried about by the average bow hunter...


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## stodr

Poluke said:


> The way I understand it is there is no zeroing done at the 20 yd mark it is just a point of impact where the arrow is hitting on a left to right horizontal plane and the arrows path of flight is in a straight line.
> 
> If you move further away from the point of impact at 20 yards and your arrow is coming off the rest in a straight line and if the straight line is pointing to the left of optimal center shot, the arrows path will continue to deviate to the left and arrive at the target face to the left of the original 20 yard point. Ditto to the right. The arrow must come off the rest as straight as the path of the string drop and continue down range within that straight line to be ZERO.
> 
> Therefore in my dimly lit attic of a mind the only way possible to align the arrow to the string drop and truely center off the bow is to adjust the rest.
> 
> Am I a babbler or what?


You got it :smile:


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## Poluke

Stodr

Thanks (?)  Don't know what I got but I hope the "grasshopper" That would be me, is on the path to enlightenment?

IT"S ALL SO PLANE TO ME!


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## stodrette

Poluke said:


> Stodr
> 
> Thanks (?)  Don't know what I got but I hope the "grasshopper" That would be me, is on the path to enlightenment?
> 
> IT"S ALL SO PLANE TO ME!


In standard English: your explanation and understanding of this matter is correct. You are _not_ a babbler :thumbs_up


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## Poluke

*Thanks You*

Okay!! Now if you will humor this pull start of a mind One more big question to see if I get this right. I am now at 20 yards and I shoot the bull and drop my plumb line from the arrow I just shot. I go back to 50 yards and shoot an end and measure my grouping in relation to deviation from the vertical plumb line and adjust my rest/launcher in our out accordingly. Now I shoot an end again to verify my adjustment to the rest/launcher and continue this process until I have my rest/launcher at or very near zero center shot. Okay from here I can go back to 20 yards and adjust my site pins individually to the correct yardage (personal preferences) ie 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 yards. To check my adjustments on the vertiacl and horizontal planes I've just created I shoot ends at (vertical the left or right side of the line at all yardages) and horizontal (top horizontal line of target face edge also at all yardages). 

Now say I get this right and proceed to shoot ends at an extreme angle uphill or downhill and find that there is a need for an adjustment to be made for the "Third Axis" ie the relation of my pins being skewed forward or back from the vertical plane established by my rest/launcher position and knocking point in relation to the target? Is the adjustment to be made the same for this axis you know follow the arrow. Skew (for lack of a better term) out or right for right side miss and Skew in or left for left side miss? This is Axis # 3? 

By my reading axis # 4 (side hill angle up or down) will be taken care of with both the third Axis and Walkback centershot tuning method and I shouldn't need to bother with it. 

I'm going to go take some aspirin now and proceed to the range to begin this process with both my bows. You folks have been a great help and EXTREMELY PATIENT with us newbies. Thank you again!!!


----------



## stodr

Poluke said:


> Okay!! Now if you will humor this pull start of a mind One more big question to see if I get this right. I am now at 20 yards and I shoot the bull and drop my plumb line from the arrow I just shot. I go back to 50 yards and shoot an end and measure my grouping in relation to deviation from the vertical plumb line and adjust my rest/launcher in our out accordingly.


You make a real fine adjustment no more then a 1/16 of an inch unless it is gross. Then you immediatly go back to 20 shoot anouther arrow hang the plumb again and go back to 50 and see if your group lands on that line. If it doesn't make anouther small adjustment and try again. Remeber you are always using the 20 pin.

I usually do some vertical group tuning but normally shoot at 40 to 50 yards and see how my arrows group vertically. When you do that you have to know if you made a good shot or not and if your bow is sighted in well at taht distance, other wise you won't know why some arrows hit high or low.






> Now say I get this right and proceed to shoot ends at an extreme angle uphill or downhill and find that there is a need for an adjustment to be made for the "Third Axis" ie the relation of my pins being skewed forward or back from the vertical plane established by my rest/launcher position and knocking point in relation to the target? Is the adjustment to be made the same for this axis you know follow the arrow. Skew (for lack of a better term) out or right for right side miss and Skew in or left for left side miss? This is Axis # 3?


That is correct 



> By my reading axis # 4 (side hill angle up or down) will be taken care of with both the third Axis and Walkback centershot tuning method and I shouldn't need to bother with it.


I don't know enough about the 4 axis to form an opinion, I will let others more informed on that subject discuss that. I am keeping an open mind about it. I never have had a left right problem on hills after the 3rd axis was set. If you do a search the forum on 4th axis there is numerous pages of posts on the subject. I am just to lazy to read them all. Next time I see Joe I will just let him show it to me.


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## Bow-zo

*The readers/users be the judge!*

Bow-zo,
It's not getting through to me yet. I'm working on understanding it. You should use another font in your Wordpad, too, I don't understand Old English too well 

I don't agree that the walk-up and walk-back are doing the same thing. Gene is minimizing arrow oscillation which from 10yds or less could cause a miss, as the tip of the arrow swings back and forth along its intended path.
You are correcting for an arrow flying in a straight path but at an angle to your sight line. Totaly different thing.
Joe B.
P

Sorry Joe I just used the font that came up as a default. It is called western. It is not O/E

Yes the walk up and the walk back are exactly the same thing. Once you understand the walk back you will see. I mentioned this earlier. This method (the walk up)was outlined in archery focus a while back by Tim Strickland.
It is a easier method than the walk back for most because you can hold on a very small dot or string much easier at the closer distance.
He is not doing it to minimize misses. He is doing it to put all his arrows on the same vertical line.
Maybe you do not understand it because you have not used it. Give it a unbiased try. Use the same pin at 20 and 50. See what happens. You might shoot better than you think if your arrows are flying straight. LOL!
Good luck..have fun! Thanks for all the input.


Cloquet>>Shooting field points with the rest in the broadhead position the field points impact left at 20 yards and right at 40 yards. Not a lot but why? Possible spine issue?

Javi. Since the broadhead changed the dynamic spine of my arrow enough to require a different centershot from field points would I be better off to use an arrow with a stiffer spine. Would the stiffer spine minimize that effect? Would there be any adverse effects? 

Cloquet, It might be a spine issue if you are on the weak side already. Over the years I have found a heavier spine always work better with broad heads. If you shoot a mechanical release use the next size up in spine.
The broadhead planes and tries to steer the front of the arrow which only magnifies the flexing of the shaft.
Also use as heavy of a helical you can with your rest. It is very hard for the broad head to plane if it is spinning. Then make sure you spin test all your broad heads to be sure the very tip has no wobble what so ever. Good luck..Dave!

Poluke>>This writing plus the drawings has "increased the wattage on my bulb" Thanks for taking the the time to write all that you have. I now "get it". Yet I still want to bust one more off ya. In the drawing #2 if the string is the anchor point and the rest is moved right then all lines will converge and become one line. 2nd axis? Third and fourth axis involve the rotation of the site guard body with pins both in a horizontal and vertical plane?

Hey poluke, Yes that is pretty much it . The drawing is crude but I had to make it as simple as I could.
If you can imagine pushing the rest to the right all the lines in drawing 2 will converge as you said and the arrow will not only fall straight to the ground but also straight down the vertical string hung on the 20 yd. target.
If you go too far the groups will now be right of the string which is what happened to me in the pics I posted. This what I was trying to get across with the string through the peep and anchored to the target idea in one of my earlier post. If you can imagine your bow at full draw with said string you can see how moving the rest right or left would push the tip of the arrow outside that line and the shot arrow would follow the tip. 
Third axis is the action of getting the sight or scope housing square to the sight bar or mount. 4th axis is the action of getting the sight bar or mount in a parallel line with the arrow shaft when at full draw.
Both 3rd & 4th need to be done for the sight bubble to stay in the center when shooting on flat ground or up/down hill. 

The way I understand it is there is no zeroing done at the 20 yd mark it is just a point of impact where the arrow is hitting on a left to right horizontal plane and the arrows path of flight is in a straight line.

If you move further away from the point of impact at 20 yards and your arrow is coming off the rest in a straight line and if the straight line is pointing to the left of optimal center shot, the arrows path will continue to deviate to the left and arrive at the target face to the left of the original 20 yard point. Ditto to the right. The arrow must come off the rest as straight as the path of the string drop and continue down range within that straight line to be ZERO. 

Therefore in my dimly lit attic of a mind the only way possible to align the arrow to the string drop and truely center off the bow is to adjust the rest.

Also correct. You do have to sight in at 20(sight only) and make sure to use the same 20 yd. Pin at the longer distance. 


Okay!! Now if you will humor this pull start of a mind One more big question to see if I get this right. I am now at 20 yards and I shoot the bull and drop my plumb line from the arrow I just shot. I go back to 50 yards and shoot an end and measure my grouping in relation to deviation from the vertical plumb line and adjust my rest/launcher in our out accordingly. Now I shoot an end again to verify my adjustment to the rest/launcher and continue this process until I have my rest/launcher at or very near zero center shot. Okay from here I can go back to 20 yards and adjust my site pins individually to the correct yardage (personal preferences) ie 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 yards. To check my adjustments on the vertiacl and horizontal planes I've just created I shoot ends at (vertical the left or right side of the line at all yardages) and horizontal (top horizontal line of target face edge also at all yardages). 

Yes! You can shoot a group to see if you are on the line at 50. But!! Make sure you go back to 20 and rezero the 20yd. pin and start over again. It may take several trips from 20 to 50 to get it perfect.
Zero at 20 (sight only) shoot from 50 and move rest if needed. Once the 20 yd. Arrows are dead center and the 50 yd. Arrows are hitting the string or a nice group surrounding the string you can proceed to set all your pins 20,30,40,50,&60. 
A lot of people that first try this forget to rezero at 20 “every time they move the rest.”

Now say I get this right and proceed to shoot ends at an extreme angle uphill or downhill and find that there is a need for an adjustment to be made for the "Third Axis" ie the relation of my pins being skewed forward or back from the vertical plane established by my rest/launcher position and knocking point in relation to the target? Is the adjustment to be made the same for this axis you know follow the arrow. Skew (for lack of a better term) out or right for right side miss and Skew in or left for left side miss? This is Axis # 
Now say I get this right and proceed to shoot ends at an extreme angle uphill or downhill and find that there is a need for an adjustment to be made for the "Third Axis" ie the relation of my pins being skewed forward or back from the vertical plane established by my rest/launcher position and knocking point in relation to the target? Is the adjustment to be made the same for this axis you know follow the arrow. Skew (for lack of a better term) out or right for right side miss and Skew in or left for left side miss? This is Axis # 3? 


Yeah something like that. This is best done in a vise so you can level the bow up and then move it back and forth to simulate up and down hill shooting.

By my reading axis # 4 (side hill angle up or down) will be taken care of with both the third Axis and Walkback centershot tuning method and I shouldn't need to bother with it. 

No! 4th axis is totally different. Most archers make this assumption but it is a different adjustment. I covered it above.

I'm going to go take some aspirin now and proceed to the range to begin this process with both my bows. You folks have been a great help and EXTREMELY PATIENT with us newbies. Thank you again!!!

Our pleasure!
Give her a try poluke! You will see your bows shoot like you never thought possible . LOL!
In spite of the doubt by some this method works and works well. I do not do it simply for the sake of doing it. My groups are at there best afterwards and not so good if I do not do it. The “PROOF” is in the pudding so to speak.
Good luck..Have fun! It’s just a game. Dave!

Who is Stodrette?? Is this your coach stodr? LOL!


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## stodrette

> Who is Stodrette?? Is this your coach stodr? LOL!


  

Just the interpreter....  

Anyone that is married knows one of the first rules of staying married:
NEVER COACH YOUR SPOUSE.


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## JAVI

stodrette said:


> Just the interpreter....


_Huh...._


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## ld12ring

*hum*

this is the most confusing thing i have ever read about in my life. i am glad i am to dumb to understand all of this.


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## stodrette

JAVI said:


> _Huh...._



Try to keep up there, Javi  

Stodr answered an "or" question with a yes. I just clarified his intention. :shade:


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## stodrette

ld12ring said:


> this is the most confusing thing i have ever read about in my life. i am glad i am to dumb to understand all of this.



You have to be there.....then you can get the t-shirt :wink: 


now back to the topic....


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## ld12ring

*please explain*

like i said i am not real smart. but when a arrow leave the bow at point a and crosses point b at 20 yards it should hit point c at 50 yards. if you move the rest and resight in at 20 yards the arrow should still hit point c. my bow has never been able to shoot a curve ball. maybe the group is not as good but geometery tells me a straight line is a straight line. what am i missing here. i am open to learning new things but i cant firgure some of this out.


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## stodr

ld12ring said:


> like i said i am not real smart. but when a arrow leave the bow at point a and crosses point b at 20 yards it should hit point c at 50 yards. if you move the rest and resight in at 20 yards the arrow should still hit point c. my bow has never been able to shoot a curve ball. maybe the group is not as good but geometery tells me a straight line is a straight line. what am i missing here. i am open to learning new things but i cant firgure some of this out.


I am not going into it again but basically the arrow does not leave the bow on a perfict horizontal line it is angled left or right sometimes you have to adjust the rest so it leaves in a perfect horizontal line. Basically it leaves inside the line and crosses the line at 20 yards because you adjust your sight for that and impacts outside the line, an angled line, straight not curved. You move the rest so it leaves on the line and then it will hit on that line.


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## Bow-zo

*Oh No! Not again!*

Just the interpreter.... huh? You mean as in "Better half"? LOL!


Sorry ld12ring, if the first 4 pages does not do it for ya?? I do not know what to tell ya.
The arrow does not curve or change its path once shot. But it dose cross the line of sight if the rest is not in the proper place and the farther away you get the farther from the center it will impact. Nough said. Read it all again if you are not clear on it.

How about that stodr! Joe is not alone after all. That should make him feel better. LOL!

Just kidding Joe. You may not understand walk back tuning but you sure understand releases. Zenith pure back tension..I love 'em.
Dave!


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## ld12ring

*i will read*

i will read all five pages tonight when i get home. i will be honest i havent read all of them at one time. there are parts that makes sense to me and some i cant quiet firgue out. i may have more question. im not disagreeing with method in anyway and im just trying learn something new. thanks ld


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## Bow-zo

*Sorry ld*

Good deal ld,
Sorry if I sounded short in that last post. After I read it again I thought "Boy" that did not sound all that friendly.
This thread has gone much farther then I ever thought. If you do read it all you will see a good portion of it is just repeating the same thing with a little differant explaination. One of the other members thought the same as you. How the arrow could mysteriously change course after it was shot.
We all know this does not happen and what does happen is not all that simple to explain in words alone. If I was talking to you face to face I could show you in 5 minutes what is happening.
If you have any questions at all feel free to ask.
Hope the reading clears it up for ya and is not to boring.

Good luck..Dave!


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## ld12ring

*hey bow-zo*

well i made it thru it. i have studied for test that wasnt this hard. i understand enough now to go give it a try. i have a project bow that will work out fine for this. when our 100 degree days drop down to mid 90s i will go to the range and give it a try. i still may have questions but i will go shoot first. what type archery do you shoot? i will have some results in a couple of days i hope and give you a shout. ld.


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## jduck1

*Proof it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Here is proof that Bow-Zo knows what he is talking about. I paper tuned and was pulling out my hair. Started Walk Back today out to 40 yds as that is as far as I can go at my house. The tune went as described. I was amazed at how little an adjustment was needed to really pull the group together. Anyways here are a few pics from my final results. If you look close you can see a Robin Hood that I pulled out a little bit so you could see :teeth: . Happy I got a hood but not happy I did it with my new Maxima shafts. That was about a $18 dollar shot   :teeth:


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## jduck1

*Another PIc*

Another Pic!!! :thumbs_up


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## Bow-zo

*Good deal!*

OK ld,
If you have any ? just fire away. LOL!
good luck.





Good job jduck1 and good shooting.
Tune the tiller/nock just a little and yer done.

Good luck..have fun! Dave!


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## Stormstaff

tag


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## Bow-zo

Hope this will help. 
The arrow "must" fall 90 degrees to the ground! (unless the wind is blowing)
It does not fall 90 degrees to the target unless it is flying straight "at" the target.
With the center shot off to the left you are in effect forcing the arrow to go left. Now you will have to point the bow slightly right to compensate. (see shooting center line. This is where the string is falling)
The arrow is falling 90 degrees to the ground!! At the same time it is flying off to the left. So the farther back you walk the farther left from the string it will land. If you are shooting from 60yds. the arrow will fall 90 degrees from the bullseye that you are aimimg at. Which is not 90 degrees from the 20yd or the string you hung at 20yd. (see drawing)
That is why you "HAVE" to use the 20yd. pin when shooting from both distances 20 & 60yd.

Now imagine what will happen if you push the rest in the drawing to the right.
If there was a string hanging from your peep,rest,scope & arrow tip they would all line up with the shooting center of the bow and that will put all the arrows on the string you hung at 20yd. It will also most likely give you your best flight and groups. 
I want to repeat that the shooting center of the bow is differant for everyone. "torque"
My bows do not shoot all that well untill i do the walk back.
"Think what you will...it works for me and others you have heard. If you do not use it your bow is not shooting at its best. IMHO!"

Sorry! i do not know why the drawing is a little dark?

Dave!


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## extraham

*Walkback works*

Bow-zo I do the same. After I get things setup with the method you described I then proceed to sight in my scope @ 60yds. If I have lefts or rights then my short vertical sight bar is not perpendicular.


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## SEOBowhntr

For those of you wanting to simplify tuning a bit, throw out your paper tuning and start group tuning with the walk back tuning method. I was blasted on another forum because I advocated walkback tuning to center a rest before setting up sights!!!! Most of the guys on that other forum just take for granted that their pro-shop guy put their rest on centered, and they don't touch it. To me that is ridiculous and irresponsible to not at least check the centering by walk back tuning. For those of us who install our own stuff, walk back tuning will save us time and get us online much quicker than paper tuning. I think if you get the knock height right from the start, you will find that paper tuning is useless, however it will help a bit with getting knock height correct. *FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T QUITE "GET IT," GO BACK AND READ JUST THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS THREAD!!!*


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## Bow-zo

*Thanks guys!*

Hi there extraham, thanks for the input. it is just amazing to me with all the people this method works for and yet some have to bash it.
I am sure the bashers do not use it/or have not tried it.
It is only their loss to having a simple way to have their bow shooting great very quickly with no frustration. Just real results for their effort. :thumbs_up 
Thanks again..Dave!



SEObowhntr..How are ya?
I hear ya man. I really enjoy having real discussions with other archers like this thread. You can (and I have) learn a great deal.. but some have to spoil the fun with post and comments that are in no way contributing to the thread. :zip: They are purposely trying to put you down and make you look foolish.  
I think they are being very disrespectful not just to the person they direct their comment to but everyone on A/T. That is not what A/T is about. It is one thing to joke around and add some humor to the thread. :teeth: Quite another to make sharp or pithy comments directed to harm. :thumbs_do If you disagree with someone just say so but be courteous. :angel: 
Anyway on with the good stuff! :slice: :beer: 

I like to use a horizontal line at about 40yd. to set my nock. I tiller tune the nock up and down untill all my arrows hit the line. :wink: 
Thanks SEObowhntr...Dave!


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## ld12ring

*bow-zo*

it cooled to around 90 degrees today so i went to the range but took my 3d bow and basicly checked it. it was on the string at 50 yards that as far i ccan shoot there, but i was not expecting this bow to be off. its been shooting real good for a while. should be able to take my project bow out this weeekend and give it a spend. ill give you the results next week if everything works out.  have a nice weekend, ld


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## Bow-zo

Good deal ld,
I have a new target bow I have to set up so I will be doing some experimenting myself.
If you have the time and patience try moving your rest so you know it is out of line. Sight the bow in to be absolute center @ 20yds. Hang the string and then shoot from 50 useing the 20yd. pin. If nothing else you will prove to your self the merits of critical center shot.
I am going to try Joe's idea of purposely moving the rest and then try to sight in at 20 and move to 60 and just move the windage to get center.
I will then go back to 20 and see where the arrows hit. I will be taking pics and posting the results.
Thanks for the input ld. Have fun and a good weekend yourself :beer: ...Dave!


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## Deezlin

I guess if I sight in my rifle at 20 yards and then shoot 200 yards, I won't have to re sight the left and right. Walk back tuning works and it has for many years. 

Thinks for ideal on the pendulum. It sure beats try to draw a plumb line on a target on a hill side.


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## ld12ring

*bowzo--results from arkansas are in*

i took the project bow out satuday for a test run. this is a 2002 protec im going to make a indoor spot bow out of it. i built new strings,let them settle in and nothing has move on them in a while but last time to the range bow didnt group that well at distance.30 and 40. i was on at 20 then moved back to 45. due to bag size and distance i can shoot this is the yardage i had to uses. first group 3 inches dto the left of the plumb bob. adjust rest resighted and 1 and half inches to left. adjusted rest resighted and 1 inch to right of the string. well you know the routine. it did convince me that the arrow oscillation does carry the arrow left and right. this is what i was not sure of before. i was shooting good enough that the adjustment i made showed up and match what you had said. i went inside and shot a 296 vegas round with 1 7x. a 298 is my high so i was happy with the results. the misses were me and not the bow. now part 2.
my shooting buddy called me while i was practicing without him knowing, yeah i was whoring around on him, and told him of my results. we have talked about this method on road trips and he was like me , was not complerely convinced that this would work.


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## ld12ring

*part 2*

my buddy has 2 bows set up the same and one bow shoots better than the other. he has gone to great pain to make both bows the same. there not. he tryed this method on his rootbeer bow and he was shooting 3 inches to the right, made adjustments.after he got done he said the bow was shooting real well. so basiclly two seperate tests and both of us are happy with the results. i normally base my opinions on things i have used for a while and worked but its looks to me that this method does work. i have never had a lot of luck paper tuning, basicaly group tuning, but i will keep trying this of a while. i do think that your shooting ability could come in to play on this method, but most of us know when we make a bad release or not. thanks for answering the questions that i had and i can say that i have learned something from this. ld


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## tmorelli

One thing I think has been assumed in the science behind the "walk back" method is that it does not matter in what manner the arrow leaves the bow. In my experience, if you have problems with down range left to right variants from your short range, then very simply your sight bar is not adjusted to the same vertical plane that your string rests in. The walk back method seems to disregard the fact that the arrow may not fly stable when adjusted to "true centershot." How many bows have you ever paper tuned that ended up exactly on "center shot?" I have never had any problem with a paper tuned bow varying from sight plane at long distances. I do not mean to disregard the idea of group tuning but I think to say that the walk back tuning should be done before anything else is rediculous. Are you assuming that you have chosen the right shaft, length, fletching, point, etc.? Are you assuming that the spine of the arrow would not the be primary cause for leaving the plane determined by setting the 20 yard pin initially. I do understand and practice setting my windage at my longer yardages but with attention to detail that is unneccesary but easier.


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## Poluke

Bow-zo

Just so you know - I have tried every method mentioned on this thread and for all ya'll to know the walk back method absolutely puts the arrow shaft on line with the bow string drop and sight.

I have lazer adjusted, center shot tool (both rubber band and solid bar) adjusted and paper tuned. To date the walk back method has me shooting tighter groups at 40 to 60 yards than I have ever shot. AND it only took me three "walk backs' to get the accuracy I craved. Plus I purposely moved my rest to misalign my bow to see if I was making a difference.

I went to our range today and double checked my set up. My buddy (who is a far better shot than I) challeged me to Golf on the hunter course. The bet was a burger and a beer and I lost 1 down after 28 lanes. Yeah I lost but not like I did before, dramatically 5 to 10 shots. 

I went and paper checked my shot bare shaft and got a high slight left tear. Not going to touch it (my rest) I think I can nock tune the arrow and maybe move my string loop. 

Thanks for starting this thread. I've learned alot.


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## zenarch

Bow-zo,
In your last picture, the illustration on the left, you show the arrow path and the sight path on the same line, and the arrow hitting both targets. Now all you have to do is rotate your drawing about 20 degrees to the right and put that line in a vertical plane, and you have vertical alignment at 20 and 60yd with the bow pointing off to the right, which is exactly what I showed in my drawings. So now that we've determined that if we aim this bow, with its offset centershot, slightly to the right we can hit both plumb lines, how do we decide if the centershot is really right. 
If I were to move the centershot even further to the left and used the windage adjustment to force me to aim the bow even further to the right, I would once again align the 20 and 60yd targets in a vertical plane in the drawing and hit the string on both.

As for the idea that the arrow crosses your line of sight at 20 yds going from right to left at an angle, I don't think so.
Take your perfectly aligned sight and arrow path as shown in the righthand picture and move the rest to the left or right. Your arrow path will never cross your sight path at all, once it starts left or right so how can you ever hit anything along your sight path which stayed straight ahead. You can re-align the two paths by moving the centershot back to where it was or by moving your sight line back to your arrow path with the windage adjustment.

Sorry to keep this up but I just can't agree with your logic.
Joe B.


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## Bow-zo

:thumbs_up 
Hey ld, glad to hear you had good results with the walk back.
I am just like you. I do not believe everything I hear people talk about.
After someone told me about the walk back I thought what the heck I have tried everything else so why not. It worked so well for me I have been using it exclusively ever since.
It does work and it works very well. I am very confident anyone that gives it a good honest try will see results. If they do not..oh well at least if they condemn it they are speaking with at least some experience.

Good luck and have fun..It's just a game! Dave




tmorelli, How are ya?
Thanks for the input.
You seem to have missed the point or did not read the entire thread.
The walk back is a "alternative" to those that have trouble trying to paper tune. To me personally it is the only method. I use it because it is much faster and more accurate than paper tuning. I will say again for people that like and have good results from Paper tuning that is good. I am happy to hear you are one of them.
Can I ask you if you have ever tried the walk back method? I get the feeling you are condemning a practice you have not tried.
You might think it is rediculous that is fine you can express your opinion like the rest of us and we will respect that freedom but hundreds of archers have a very difficult time paper tuning and that is what is rediculous. Just read all the threads..better yet do a search for "paper tuning" see all the frustration first hand. I started this thread to help them. 

You mention that we must "assume" it does not matter how the arrow leaves the bow and we must be "assuming " we pick the right shaft in the first place and the spine might be causing some deveation at 20yd.
Well let me clear up that point also. We are not assuming anything. I have tried this method with arrows well under spine and arrows well over spine. Believe me when I say "spine has nothing to do with the results obtained using the walk back method". The "group of arrows" will still go left or right untill the center shot is set. Like I said in a earlier post to another paper guy. You set your rest up using paper (glad it works for ya..it does not for many) I set mine up with the walk back.

The sight bar has nothing to do with my results. I set my "4th axis" (as OldPro calls it) also and have totall differant results from that step also.
I can set the sight bar before I do the walk back and I get the same results "lefts or rights " untill I set my center shot with the walk back.
You do not lift the bow high enough from 20 to 30 or 40 yards for the sight bar to come into play.
Please do not get me wrong! I respect your comments although negative about the method but you have to respect the fact that the method works or did you miss the comments in this thread alone about the ones that tried it and are happier with their bow now than ever. "There IS a better way" if you chose not to use it fine. If others chose to use it and see good results how can you say it is rediculous?
Good luck, Good shooting. Have fun!

Dave.


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## Mag-Tek

Several archers tune arrow rests different. I paper tune then group tune. We are scored on how well we hit and group.

Group tuning the arrow rest can result in much tighter groups. Just back off to 60 or 80 yards and make fine rest adjustments in or out, up or down until you get the best groups. I call this the sweet spot for my arrow rest. For me I find at 80 yards my groups end up half the size from when I start the group tuning test. Top archers have been doing this before compounds hit the market.

When you have found the sweet spot for your arrow rest you can do a walk bak test. If its off dont adjust your arrow rest or your groups will open up. Check your 1st, 2nd and 3rd axis. If that checks out good you need a 4th axis. The walk back test adjust your arrow path to your sight, the 4th axis adjust your sight to your arrow path. 

With the 4th axis you will have better groups, much better right and left groups on level ground and hills. Its easer to set up too. 

Gene Lueck introduced the 3rd axis concept 30 years ago and designed a sight leveler, that is still used by many archers.

A year ago Gene and I was trying to figure out why we had slight left and right groups from 20 to 80 yards. Even if the 3rd axis was set at full draw the results was the same. Putting shims under the sight mount will fix the problem but it puts a bend in the mount and takes way to much time playing with shims. We came out with the 4th axis adjustment resolve the problem.

In the first NFAA Nationals the 4th axis was used three archers took a first and two second places. Good shooting Dean. Its new and will become a new standerd to bow tuning when archers understand it more.

Look up www.archerytech.com for more info on the 4th axis.

Thanks, Ken Stanislawski


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## Bow-zo

Hi Joe,
Glad you came back with more info.
the point you are missing is I only show 20 to 60 yds. If I walk back to 100 yards I would have to move the sight even farther to the left because the arrow is still veering left and will untill it hits the ground. If you sight said bow in at 100 yds. the arrow at 20 yds. will be so far right of center it is not funny. You are not taking into account that now you turned the bow 20 degrees as you said the bow is trying to shoot 20 degrees to the right because now the string is falling(shooting center) 20 degrees to the right and the misadjusted rest will not let it. BUT THE ARROW IS STILL VEERING LEFT.
Your drawings are only taking into account a stright line to the target and you can not do that. The arrow is flying on one line and dropping to the ground on another. I have said over and over again and will say again"THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE TO USE THE 20YD. PIN AT ALL DISTANCES" The drawings are as if you are looking down from over head. Not looking from the shooters view. You have to see the arrows flight from "ALL" angles.
You can argue drawings but not results. I tried your method you advocate in your thead several months back and my results were just what I expected. When sighted in for 60 my 20 yard shots all hit about 1/2 inch right of center. And this is what will happen if you just swing the bow 20 degrees right like you said above. (i have pics if anyone is interested)
Everyone of you guys comdemning the method do not use it. You are going to have to experiance the "Seeing is Believing" and not just what you think.
Do yourself and us a favor and go out and try it and if you feel the same fine.Then you can make your comments based on your own results and not a bunch of drawings. 
 If you are not doing it you are not seeing the effects.
Maybe you can explain to me all the guys trying it and seeing their bow shoot better then it ever has. Tell them it does not work!!! Do a search on A/T for walk back tuning and see how many positive comments there are. Then do the same for paper tuning. Find me some negative results from the ones that tried the walk back and it did not work.
There is not enough room here to list the frustrated paper tuners.
You obviously do not understand what is happening but that is beside the point. I really can not believe you guys think its OK for the arrow to leave the bow on any other line other than the line straight away from the falling string and just move the sight to bring it back but that is your choice. I am really sorry you guys do not see it. You are arguing something you are not understanding. I am not going to whip a dead horse. I did not start this thread to convince the critics. I did it to help the frustrated and if you count the positive feedback I think I win. The proof is in the results not a drawing.

If it was simply sight bar alignment as Magtech suggest then why do I still have to do the walk back even after I set the 4th axis to eliminate my right left grouping? I know you are going to say "well you are not setting the sight bar correctly like you think you are" I think I am (I do it the very way Oldpro outlines on his web sight) but I will give ya that. Now let me ask you this "AGAIN" Why is OldPro setting his centershot with the "walk up" method before he starts the 4th tuning. Magtech swears Oldpro has the solution(he keeps quoting the web sight but I am not sure he has ever read it) and believe it or not I agree. The point Magtech is missing is Oldpro and I tune the same way with the exception that Oldpro "walks up" and I "walk back" before we align the sight bar. Ask gene to explain why he does this step first. He even mentions its very important to get this step done first. 
Magtech explains his group tuning technique and it is a good one it works. I use to group tune this way also but now I just start my group tuning with the walk back to find the best starting point for the rest and center shot in a very fast manner. Then I do not have to shoot several groups at distance to find the best center shot. I have found that after I do the walk back I never have to move the rest for better horizontal grouping. My groups just spread horizontaly when I move the rest. "Think about it" How much better can you get your horizontal spread if you are hitting a line from 80 yards. 
You move your rest around while shooting from 80yds to find your best horizontal groups. I do it with the walk back it takes much less shooting. All you have to do is tune the nock to shrink the vertical spread. We are really going the same way just taking two differant roads to get there.You arrived there by tuning for minimum group spread at 80yd. I arrived there by getting my arrows to hit a line from 60. I would venture to bet that if you tried the walk back "after" you are done tuning with your method you would see that your arrows fall on the plumb bob line like mine do so you see no need for the walk back. I am saying the walk back is a much faster way (especially if you are new and can not shoot good groups form 60+) to start off the tuning process. Thanks for your reply Ken. I appreciate it.

Joe you mention in a earlier post gene does this to eliminate short misses. you can see he plainly says OPTIMUM CENTER SHOT.

Copied from www.archerytech.com
#2. Be absolutely sure that your arrow rest is set to the optimum center-shot position for the arrow you are going to use.
A method to do that is as follows: The "Walk-up" test! Shoot at a perfectly vertical line at 15 yards. Adjust your windage to hit the line. Then step forward 3 yards and shoot at the line again. Then step forward 3 yards and shoot at the line again. repeat this process until you have shot an arrow at 3 yards at the line. That will be 1 each at 15, 12, 9, 6 and 3 yards. 
DO NOT MOVE YOUR WINDAGE DURING THIS TEST!(just like with walk back) If your arrows all hit the line you are ready to do the "In-Out" test. If not, move you arrow rest 1/16" in the direction of the miss and do the "Walk-up" test again.([just like with walk back)If your misses are larger you moved the wrong way! Move the other way and do the "Walk-up"(walk back) test until you hit the line with all 5 arrows. Now you can proceed to the "In-Out" test  
Why are you not disputing Gene?

You guys are quick to comdemn the method when if fact it is just another way to do what you all are doing anyway. You do not understand that so.."It Can Not BE Right"
You guys can dispute the method all you want. We will respect your right and freedom to do so but you can not dispute the fact that these guys are happier with thier bows and thier shooting because they tried it. Shoot back at these guys and tell them what they saw doing their tuning is really not what happened. They will shoot more and tune less and that is the way archery should be.
It is not my creation. I am just repeating what many, many top archers and coaches have been advocating for years.
I just wished I lived in NY Joe. I would love to go to the range with you and show first hand what my bow does when I move the rest around.
I guess we will just have to dispute drawings 3000 miles away. LOL!
I really can not say any more. I am just repeating myself over and over because you guys refuse to put it to the test.
Shoooooowe! Am I done yet...i think so.
I rest my case and will let the positive replys continue and fight for me. 


LOL! Dave! Have a good day guys. Remember it's just a game!


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## zenarch

Bow-zo,
If it can't be shown on paper, it aint right. Look very carefully at my drawings 1 and 3. The arrow is doing EXACTLY the same thing in both drawings from the point at which it leaves the string. It hits 20yd in the middle and it hits 60yd in the middle because both targets are in its path. Case closed.
Joe B.


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## Bow-zo

OK! OK! Joe... you win, What I and all the others are seeing is just our imagination.
Your drawing is far more "PROOF" than our targets and eye sight.
What you abolutely fail to see and ignore is the line the arrow drops on as it travels to the target. your drawing only shows travel to the target not the drop. My drawing shows both you just are not seeing it.
You insist on not trying it before you comment so I can say no more. You are not speaking from experiance you are speaking from your drawings that do not show every angle.
I will continue to show the method to the ones that are willing to try it. And I guarantee I will have more and more happy archers for it.
I will give up on you but not the others needing help on A/T.

Have a great day! Dave!


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## JAVI

*I got to say something here….*

This is exactly how people get all screwed up… 

The walk back method of tuning has been around for as long as I can remember (well at least as long as we’ve had rests (buttons) on our bows… 

It works… It’s been proven for ages… and Joe… this ain’t the first time you’ve heard or seen it advocated…

It worked for Vic (Berger), Gerhard Gabriel and many other of the greats… why now, is it not a viable method for those who want to use it…???? 

I’ve been using it in a modified form for a bunch of years… and I’ve been shimming my sight mount for the 4th axis since shortly after I put a sight bar on my bow… Didn't know nothing about no axis... back then.... just fixed the problem :tongue:


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## Bow-zo

*Not done just yet!*

Joe I will try one more time. 
What you are not seeing is the plumb line when you raise the bow.
Look at your drawing #D The bow is now pointing several degrees to the right. Do you agree?
Now if you raise the bow several degrees to get the 20yd. pin on a 60 yd target the center of the scope is no longer over the line you draw to the target. It will be off center to the left because the bow pivots in your hand at the grip in relation to the amount you raise it. The higher you raise it the farther to the left it will go. The center of the scope will not stay on a plumb line to the target unless it is following the shooting center of the bow. Rock your bow back and forth in your hand and watch the scope. As you raise it the scope rocks toward you or gets closer to the spot where you are standing. If a plumb line went down through the top of your head to your feet the scope gets closer to that line as you raise the bow. May be I will call this the 5th axis? LOL! This is the axis your drawing does not take into account. Your drawing disregards the 4th axis.
That AGIAN is why you must use the same pin at all distances.
In this condition the bow will be in the center of the target at only one yardage.

Look at the drawing again and tell me what will happen now if you align the sight bar with the arrow path or the 4th axis. if you move the sight bar to align it with the arrow shaft the scope will be much to far to the right..Agree? How badly cocked will the sight bar be if you align it now.
Now you have to move the sight back to the right to be on target..Agree?
Now that you have moved the scope back to the right you will not hit center at 20yd. remember the scope has to be parallel with the arrow "path" not just the shaft at rest.
Anyway study your drawing #D and picture the bow pivoting up and back. You will see the rest has to be in line with the shooting center for "all" these lines and the center of the scope to point in one direction. As they are in drawing #A which is where my bow is.
dave!


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## michael bilbrey

I have been reading this post and I tried the walk back method. I could only go back to 40 yards but I followed your instructions and I was amazed. I have been trying to get my new Sonic broadheads to group right but still cant. I spin tested my arrows and they are out of balance. Am going to get some more arrows and get them tuned but feel confident that with new arrows I will get a good group with my broadheads. I always shot expandibles because I could never get bhs to fly right. My bow tore perfect bullet holes but I guess this method is much better. Thanks for the info.


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## LongDraw1970

If your site is levelled off of the bow and you are holding the bow level when you shoot, the arrows have to hit on the same vertical line.


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## Spotshooter2

I kind of use both paper test and but end up using walk back for final. Actually the paper test is more for the initial vertical setup just to make sure I am somewhere in the ball park then it is to the outdoor range to do the real tuning with walk back. Joe who cares if it isnt shown on paper , you have your mind made up that it cant be right but you WONT or are scared to even give it a try,why is that . Are you afraid you might learn something or have to eat crow, trust me crow isnt so bad if you learn something from it. Give it a try what have you to lose. Walk back DOES work.


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## ld12ring

it took me alot longer to read these post and try to understand them and firgure out all the pictures than it does just to go try it. i wanted to understand something before i try it. if i would of tryed it first it would of help me understand what he was saying. it seem to work for me and i couldnt see it working at first. like the last guy say. just go try it. 10 minutes of your time. we have talked about it longer than that.


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## zenarch

Thanks LongDraw. You make it short and sweet.
Dave, I did indeed try it as you can go back to my original post "The walkback method is a waste of time" and see. I didn't see the effect you describe and never have. I don't get all of your plumbbob theory. I repeat, the arrow path in drawings 1 and 3 and the target alignment are EXACTLY the same. I don't see anything simpler than that. If #1 works, so does #3. Yes, #3 does screw up the 4th axis adjustment which is OK in #1 so the bar would have to be brought back in line and the windage readjusted. The point i've been trying to prove is that there is not ONE AND ONLY ONE critical cenershot point.
I'M off to the IBO Worlds and the ASA Classic so maybe this will be off the charts when I get Back. If anyone is going and wants to meet me there for discussion, I'd like that a lot.
Joe B.


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## strungout

Holy Cow!..six pages of I don't know what but your wrong? gee wiz..  

Since modern hunting sight pins don't adjust individually in the windage anymore (mine don't anyway), WalkBack is a no-brainer of a tool no matter how it is imagined working.


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## Mag-Tek

If you find the sweet spot for best groups why would you move the rest.

Gene does the walk back test. I tune my rest for best groups. Then the 4th axis will fix the rest. But the walk back test didn't work perfect for Gene and never has. Thats why we came out with the 4th axis.


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## Poluke

Mag-Tek said:


> If you find the sweet spot for best groups why would you move the rest.
> 
> Gene does the walk back test. I tune my rest for best groups. Then the 4th axis will fix the rest. But the walk back test didn't work perfect for Gene and never has. Thats why we came out with the 4th axis.


As I understand it - The method does'nt just move the rest is doesn't just move windage, it doesn't just adjust third axis alignment. I does allow for all while aligning the shot/arrow with the riser and limbs for optimal bow efficiency. If you are pointing the bow riser to the right and shooting the the arrow to the left of the riser while the string is dropping down the riser/limb plane you are losing efficiency by trying to move windage to overcome the forces involved in the shot.


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## Bow-zo

*Thanks guys!*

Thanks javi, i needed that....LOL! Dave

Hey Michael, how are ya?
Glad you got some good out of this mess..LOL!
Have a great day!
Dave 


Long draw all I can say is if you think that is true after reading this thread you are missing the boat. There is so much more to tuning then just leveling your sight I do not know where to begin. And i sure ain't going through it again.
Have fun...Dave!


The walk back is the same as the walk up magtech! It is a completely differant adjustment from 4th axis. *Gene still says this has to be done first.* If not you can not set the 4th axis correctly. You do not move the rest after finding the sweet spot which is my whole point here. The walk back "WILL" find the sweet spot for you in a very quick manner. Look at Joes drawing #D. The bow has to point down range in line with the arrow path and not several degrees to the right or left. Or at least be close.
Joe thinks it is does not matter and he is very, very wrong to put it bluntly.
The scope will not pivot up and down in line with the arrow path in this condition. The 4th axis will not cure this. Only moving the rest in line with the shooting center of the bow will fix this problem. The walk back or walk up does this exclusively. "It puts the rest in a straight line with the shooting center of the bow." (where the bow is pointing and the string is falling)!
Dave!


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## Bow-zo

*Wish I was there!*

I wish I could be there Joe. I could deminstrate in 5 min. the point you are not grasping. My explainations and drawings are not the best I know but if I had a bow in my hand I could show you what happens when you lift the bow to shoot the longer distance that your drawing does not show.
The shooting center or your stabilizer if you will has to point down range in as straight a line to the target as possible for all the other alignments 1,2,3,4 axis to work correctly. Pointing the bow one way and shooting another just will not work and I am sure you understand that without any drawings.
Anyway hope you have a good time at the IBO Worlds.
Have fun and be careful...Dave!


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## DwayneR

Hello Dave (Bow Zo),

I want to thank you very much for your patience and time working with everyone on this thread. I think I can speak for everyone on this sentence <g>.


Anyhow, I have not tried it yet, but I will give it a try the first chance I get. That may be a while, but I just wanted to let you know I understand the principle of it all. (or the steps).

I am always willing to try different things...especially when it is free <g>.
Anyhow...To let you know... one person wants to say thanks (at least). And to all the others also.

I have heard for quite some time about the walk back technique... It has been around for quite some time... Even the TexasbowArchery club does it with the Recurves...I use a Quazi form of their tuning. Mainly because I do not shoot past 20 yards with my recurves.

Dwayne


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## strungout

Them other axis have nothing to do with the outcome of this type test or adjustment. 
I am a straight shooter in the verticle plane, I shoot with a release hence I am to experience verticle arrow flex coming off the bow, I hold my bow as verticle as I can with no cant, and I strive for a straight up and down line of my arrows at all distances period...cause that just so happens to be where the sweet spot lies therabouts...
My other just so happens to be situation that I got a sight with no individual sight pin adjustments is a blessing in disguise. I feel for anyone doing their pins individual when they could be adjusting spine through bow poundage, tip weight, or arrow size instead of just living with a slight "C" or backwards "C" pattern to there results. Fact is with Walkback, mix a slight out of spine situation with questionable shot quality and you can get a person easily misinterpriting results and moving a rest when it doesn't need it. What they really need to do is do the test at all the ranges in between first with real good shot form to see if spine is correct and go from there on that first. Bare shafting will confirm or not in the end and beginning..
Adjusting rest based on a couple groups at say 20 yard and 50 yards leaves the door open for a short cut filled with pot holes due to the above.
The only time one has to settle for less (flat shot without hills) than straight up/down of plumb is when spineage does not match bow period..
Bottom line, do the test only when spine is correct and vica versa or yer just asking for a patched up job covering up the true foregiveness level your bow could be set at....The sweet spot is only symtomatic. :teeth:


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## Bow-zo

*Thanks to you too!*

Hi Dwayne,
Thanks for the flowers LOL!
Really I would like to thank you and all the others on here that make Archery Talk what it is.
I have received a ton of help on this forum myself and I like to give back if I can. I know I am not the best at explaining things that I am trying to get across and I sure ain't no artist. I wish I could draw something up but it is very hard to show all the angels on a flat piece of paper. But you know what..all the drawings in the world do not change the facts if something works or not. I may not be able to draw but I can tune my bow.
I am not a horn blower but I went to my first FITA tournament last year and broke the state record in all 4 distances for my class. You know what? The walk back tuning method played a major roll. Hitting the center of a 90 mtr. target and than at 30mtrs. without moving the windage on my sight is very, very important to me. Believe me I could not do that without useing the walk back method. I have tried.
There are other way to accomplish the same thing like group tuning, walk up even paper if you know what you are doing.
Like I said before I started this thread to help out the new guys that are having trouble. Not all the old timers that already are set in their ways and can tune a bow by other means. The walk back method "IS" the easiest, fastest most accurate way for a new archer to have his bow shooting in one day and totally avoid the frustration of paper and the time consuming steps of the other methods. I am not saying it is "The Most Accurate" or "The Best way" (although it is both of these for me) it is just the easiest for a newbie.
I see some of these guys having trouble with their equipment and need a little point in the right direction. (as seen from all the positive comments from those that took the time to try it) I learned this tuning fact many years ago and it works very well. As Javi and others said it is not new and I certainly did not come up with the idea.
If you can use it to your benefit then by all means use it. But if you try it and it does not do it for ya no big deal go back to what does work or try something else. 
Anyway I am rambling again. thanks again for your time and comments.
Check in from time to time and let me know how it works for ya.
Dave!


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## arkhotrock

*looking good so far*

i am ld12ring's shooting buddy and so far so good it took my 2" groups a 50 down to 1" on average of course my worse group was 3" several though at 1" slaping arrows. called LD and i told him that i was sorry for having to put a beating on him this sat. what i believe i understand is this by shooting at 20 yrds and not moving your sight and shooting again a 60yrds that this shows the fish tail and arrow drift. because our friend mr. gravity does not pull in a crooked line he pulls in a straight drop and zenarch fails to remember is when easton did the first slow motion shots (with the best shooters at the time) it showed how much flex went into the arrows for that matter bows and sights.


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## francis

Dave 

Thanks for your info , I appreciate it as well.

I think I am grasping a lot of this.
Maybe we make it more difficcult than it already is.

you might have answered this already ....but, do you set the 4th axis?
after you finish tuning, do you shim the sight or use something like Genes tool for setting the 4th axis, i am assuming you think it is still important to finish things off right?

your comment about joes drawing....having the bow pointing in a different direction than the arrow flight, that the 4 th axis will not cure this.
I can understand effeciency wont be good, maybe groups ect... , but just out of curiousity, if you did have this condition, then just adjusted the 4th axis to bring the sight in line with the arrow path, can you please tell me what other problem it is that will still exist , just trying 
to picture what else will be wrong while shooting the bow, besides effeciency


Thanks!
Francis


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## francis

strungout

can you explain a little more on your method for adjusting spine, or knowing if its close or not?
when you say shoot at all distances , are you refering to the walkbalk method? what specific tests and test results are you loooking for to know if it is your centershot thats off, or if its your spine that is off?

I guess my question is this: How do you you know when it is more appropriate to adjust the centershot or more appropriate to ajust for spine?


Bowzo:

Maybe you can anser this as well, 
how do you adjust or test for proper spine, and when in your tuning process is this done, before or after the walkbalk?

Thanks Guys


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## strungout

Francis,



> strungout
> 
> can you explain a little more on your method for adjusting spine, or knowing if its close or not?
> when you say shoot at all distances , are you refering to the walkbalk method? what specific tests and test results are you loooking for to know if it is your centershot thats off, or if its your spine that is off?
> 
> I guess my question is this: How do you you know when it is more appropriate to adjust the centershot or more appropriate to ajust for spine?



Results of adjustments and some symptoms shown of both centershot and spine selection is so innertwined it aint even funny. They part ways with exactly what we are talking about here in doing Walkback tuning is one answer. Confusion is spread out amongst many causes and effects and confused even more by what we think we understand of what we read somewhere or other. In fact, many can not accept that if they are taking a different path or road to supposedly get to same place that they actually did NOT go same place... sorry , couldn't resist the deeper thought..  

If spine is off you can sort of fake a fix with a bareshaft tuning by not understanding what your looking at during the test. Impact spot confused with nock angle deviation of bare shaft from fletched shaft results in a bad diagnosis. A combination of incorrect spine and centershot position in symptom can wreck havoc on a legit attempt to fix overall result if correct item to adjust is not realized. Some may note that Easton tuning guide falls short, with good reason, in suggesting a rest adjust in the windage during a bareshaft tune but yet sure enough I bet many have, myself included, moved a bare arrow somewhat sideways by rest adjust alone to match arrows closer together. 
Facts are something like this... nock angle off only on bare shaft in windage then you got rest position issue, impact spot off but with straight nock on bare shaft in windage then you got spine issue. Many setups in beginning will have such a whacked out sideways that it is obvious it needs a rest adjust.
If your tip is impacting left or right of fletched and but your nock is heading other direction being disected in half by the supposedly straight penetrating fletched shafts then you may just have a center shot rest position issue firstly to deal with. The symptom at target of a correct center position is better penetration of arrow from it going straight towards target with less or no oscilation of the arrows nodes in the windage of release shooters or less in the finger shooters. The thing to know here with both bareshaft and walkback is that an arrow oscilating from flex or desire to rotate in the end over end axis creates a magnifying effect on an arrow leading it even farther off course as distance increases. This can be studied and understood better on the Joeatplay website...I understand it somewhat but I can't draw it perfect yet.. am working on it though, maybe I will post up my rough draft  
The fact in relation to this immediate idea is that when you move a rest in one direction only to fix a specific bareshaft test flaw you will close the gap between the two differant arrows and in fact be able to go on ahead farther over with the shaft if spine selection allows. The proponents in this debate in here should not be able to understand why this is because where they are coming from the fletched arrow has to move an equal amount over in symtom.. And that is simply wrong. Once you find perfect center (hardly possable) you found it and you got no magnifying forces making the two different in a bare shaft test or a walkback method. It is hard to describe but we are not talking about arrow fletch planing but rather arrow shaft drag (planing) and that effect is there ,in regards to bareshaft method, on both a bare shaft and fletched shaft in differing amounts due to either flex (spine) or the heading out of bow from the center rest position into a rotation. In walkback rest adjustment correction or symtom you still have a differing effect of magnification in that both arrows (one before adjustment, one after)are same physically but they headed out of bow at an increased rotational angle compared to each other from the adjustment resulting in different drag effects and hence impact spot. Again, innertwined and confusion perhaps some have at this point...
Understand what I said way up above about nock angle versus impact point in a Bareshaft result on the target and you will maybe understand that in a walkback result you should see the same exact effect showing up in a "C" or backwards "C" pattern from the spine being off but a slant one way or the other from rest position being off. Cause and effect almost seems backwards now between the two methods but it is soemwaht all in here like Ragu sauce. 
---disclaimer-Foregive if something petty is backwards please. Got a bad memory over here.. 

WHAT DID FRANCIS ASK ME? .. oh yea,


> I guess my question is this: How do you you know when it is more appropriate to adjust the centershot or more appropriate to ajust for spine?


..answer is yes in referance to walkback at all distances, and when I see a pattern within the walkback test other then a "/", "l", or "\" and bareshafting confirms there is an issue to deal with, errant wildly uncontrolable shot now and then or arrow breaking in half on release, or too much noise from bow can tell ya about a weak arrow also. I like logs and always will...
,sorry about the long windedness

:cocktail:


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## Bow-zo

*I will try!*

Hi francis, How are ya.
It is really all very incredibly simple once you see what is happening.

*you might have answered this already ....but, do you set the 4th axis?
after you finish tuning, do you shim the sight or use something like Genes tool for setting the 4th axis, i am assuming you think it is still important to finish things off right?*

Yes to all the above. I set the 4th after all else.
*
your comment about joes drawing....having the bow pointing in a different direction than the arrow flight, that the 4 th axis will not cure this.
I can understand effeciency wont be good, maybe groups ect... , but just out of curiousity, if you did have this condition, then just adjusted the 4th axis to bring the sight in line with the arrow path, can you please tell me what other problem it is that will still exist , just trying 
to picture what else will be wrong while shooting the bow, besides effeciency*

If you look at Joe's #D drawing with the bow and sight both pointing to the right. 
Now move only the sight bar to align it with the arrow path. 
Now the scope is much to far left so Joe says move it back by adjusting the windage.

If you do this the bow will only hit the center of the target at one distance. You are saying..Why?

Because the "bow" and everything else is "still" pointing to the right.

The bow pivots in a arch when you raise and lower it because the arm that is holding it is attached at the shoulder. 
When looking from the side it would look like this. )  
Look at the drawing again. If you pivot the bow up the center of the scope is no longer in the arrow path. It is slightly left. You can see the effect by holding the bow in your hand and rock it back and forth in your hand so the top limb swings towad your head and away again. If the bow is pointing at the target the scope will simply move up and down on the arrow path line. But if it is pointing to one side it will swing in the arch as above. The farther to one side you point it the more and more the arch effects the scope center. 
I am working on another drawing that will show this effect. It is not easy though trying to keep it simple so everyone can see what is happening and not clutter up the drawing.
In the mean time look at Joe's #D and imagine the bow pivoting up as it is raised to shoot a longer target. you will see the scope will move to the left and off center.

I sure hope this help you Francis. I think my explanations are as clear as mud sometimes. Why else would this thread be 6 pages? LOL

Dave!


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## strungout

Sorry yea all for not being simpler in my earlier post answering Francis. not sure I answered him even....

Bowzo, itn't the whole issue of 3rd/4th axis covered well in another thread in here. Think their is analogy provided in one of them has something to do with teetering objects on a fulcrum on a table top. It explains it well. The links to the makers of that 4th axis adjuster for the target type sights is fine also..


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## michael bilbrey

*This Really Works!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Look at these pics if I can get it done!!


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## strungout

looking good!.. what's that,out to about 50 yard? take it on out and do it at 80 yard too  

..magically you may also find yer bare shafts from 20 to 25 yard slapping that top 20 yard plumb bob too.. :shade:


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## buckslayerII

*target*

Hey there - what's up with that target? Is it just cardboard squeezed between two 2x4's with threaded rod? Will that work with carbon arrows and broadheads? Neat idea.


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## RobVos

Wow, I read nearly the whole thing (skimmed over some of the fluff...lol :angel: )

Anyway, I think I can possibly resolve the why Joe's method is NOT the same by pointing something out. Here goes nothing :tongue:

When you walk back, you are adjusting the rest to find the optimum position for delivering the arrow directly from the bow. At full draw you have 2 vectors; one originated at the nock point and follows the arrow, the other originates at the peep sight and passes through the pin on your sight. Now since at full draw the peep is forward of the nock point, the origins of these 2 vectors is different when looked at from above (these vectors represent the arrow path and the sight plane -- in terms of what has been previously discussed). You cannot change the origin points, they are fixed on the string. This is where Joe's drawing are not 100% correct, as they assume the origins are the same.

So if the rest is off to the left, the arrow vector will start at the nock and point to the left. The sight plane vector now starts at the peep and it is impossible to to make that vector run in the same vertical plane as the arrow vector, regardless of how you adjust the windage on the sight -- it can be close but it will only be exactly on at a single distance. This offset may be beyond the capability of the shooter to recognize by shooting.

Now once the arrow rest is adjusted to the optimim position the origin of the sight vector will be on that line and the windage can be adjusted to allow both vectors to be co-planer.

The walk back method accomplishes this. 

Now if I explained this correctly, and you have read the other information about the methods in this thread, you can see the differences and why walk back works and why Joe's method can get you close if the rest is near it's ideal position, but that method will not be perfect.

And since we are using the same pin without adjusting for elevation, 3rd and 4th axis is not at play.

Also regarding paper tuning, I have had an indoor bow that shot those so coveted "bullet-holes" and I could take 3-4 click each way (left or right) on my Tuner rest and it still shot "bullet-holes" - so in that adjustment range, where is the optimum setting?? -- I garauntee it would show up hugely at the longer ranges during a walk-back test.

Hope I was able to clarify a few things and turn on some more lightbulbs.

This thread is good discussion and I think everybody is learning from it. Keep an open mind! :thumbs_up :beer:


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## RobVos

Attached is a simple drawing. It shows the overhead view (as did Joe's sketches). The nodes indicate the origin points for the vectors (these cannot be moved as they are on the string of the bow at full draw). The bottom node is the nock point(starting point for arrow path) and the upper node is the peep (starting point for line of sight). The picture to the left has centershot to the left a little and the arrow path vector initiates from the node and goes in a straight line. The sight vector starts at the peep node and goes through a straight line through the pin (the pin is not explicitly depicted, however the vector goes through it). I tried to move the windage of this vector to get it as close to the arrow path as possible. I got it close and it will be dead on where it crosses the arrow path vector. Prior to that intersection I am off to the right and after I will be off to the left and if the vectors are extended out to greater lengths, the distance between them will increase. 

In the drawing to the right, I have adjusted the rest to the right (by walk-back ) until I found the location where the vecors could become coplaner. I will now be right on the money at any distance.


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## SEOBowhntr

Good Post Rob!!!

Though there are still going to be some that will deny it, walk-back tuning is probably the best method for centering a rest, and should be done before trying to set pins. If you are a natural shooter (no sites), then centering is not nearly as important except in the conservation of KE, because and arrow flying straight and true will maintain it's energy best.


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## rooster61

Do any of the axes matter if you don't move the sight?


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## Bow-zo

*I'll drink to that!*

Hey Michael,
Good job man. You really pinned it down! :thumbs_up 
The way you are shooting you can hang that string horizontally and use it to tiller tune the nock.  
Good luck .. Have fun!

Dave!




RobV, Hi and thanks for the input.
It is very good to see others point of view. It can help clear the picture. Your explanation with "vectors & coplaners" is right on. I did not think to bring out your point of the nock and peep in differant locations though i tried to bring out the relationship when I mentioned the string going through the peep and the sight pin and continuing down range to the bullseye. And again when I talked about the nock pivots on the string and does not move (horizontally) with the rest. Your explanation and drawing bring this out perfectly. Thanks!  :beer: 
I am trying to come up with a drawing that shows what happens with the scope when you raise a bow that is pointing right like Joe's drawing # D.
Maybe I should just say that when a bow is raised or lowered in Joe's #A the center of the scope or the sight pin follows the arrow path to the target but in # D the scope will swing in a arch due to the hinged point of the archers shoulder and will not follow the arrow path in a straight line. It will move off center to the left when raised or lowered even after you set 3rd & 4th.(can anyone see what I am getting at?)  
I am glad you reiterate the fact the bow will only be on target at one distance which is where the peep and the nock "vector" intersect.
Also that 3rd & 4th axis is not the cure.
Your explanation even cleared it up for me. LOL! :wink: :thumbs_up 
Thanks again Rob.

rooster61.....Yes! All the sight settings and axis need to be set if your going to hit the center of the target at any and all distances up hill and down.

I think I will go have a :beer: 
Dave!


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## ld12ring

*hey bow-zo*

you know im a slow learner but even that picture made cents to me..good drawing. even after i firgured out this works i couldnt understand what you were explaining when you were talking about the bow arcing up. i read it a few times and give up. praticeing tuesday it clicked and finally understood that part of it too. once it clicks in your head it sounds simple then. once again good picture.


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## strungout

Sorry guys.. even though it starts to show some reasoning it is not adequate.

There is much more going on in a shot from differing types of bows. Rotation and nodal flex to be precise or lack thereof in differing styles. Rotation and nodal flex are the two issues that cause the line to not be straight up/down in the walkback. I have been working on a scematic picture of sorts for a couple months now off and on that will clear up some things of arrow flight that people tend to miss. It has cross reference icons that show mainly Bareshaft, Papertune, and perhaps Walkback symtoms, causes, adjustments to make all in one Rotatable picture! It works for both verticle and horizontal understanding. Problem is I want it complete enough that people find it usefull in the field. Included is goals and things to think about and being exhaustive yet understandable in terminology is the tough thing. The exciting thing about it..Archer's paradox/Lack of Nodal Flex in the horizontal is included at some level to clear that confusion associated as well.
Am considering getting some animation into it or drop down menus at least.
There is no math in it only backwoods common sense..
However, getting all to understand one persons terminology is extremely difficult. 
As example: Do we want to think of posative rotation as being away from line of sight or do we want to think of it as clockwise only? That alone will be total jibberish to thousands upon thousands and I know it. So a bit more time is needed and walla... All will understand everything about this thing of archery.  

I figure this is as good a thread as any to let my cat out the bag..
Still need a good name for it also..lmaof


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## michael bilbrey

buckslayerII said:


> Hey there - what's up with that target? Is it just cardboard squeezed between two 2x4's with threaded rod? Will that work with carbon arrows and broadheads? Neat idea.


Yeah it works great!!!


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## michael bilbrey

Any body with any dobts just try this and you will be amazed! After doing the walk back I moved back up to 20 yards and shot 6 inches to the right. I moved my sight a quarter of an inch and shot way left. I put my sight back in the original position and then moved it maybe a 64th of an inch and it was dead on!!! If you do the walk back and then sight in your bow you will be amazed at how little you have to move your sights to get them on!!! I an still amazed!! Thanks Bo Zo and all the others for your positive input!!!!
Try it with an open mind and you will be amazed!!!!!!!!!!


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## RobVos

While rotation and vibration (arrow flexing in flight) do have effects, they are minimal for purposes of this discussion. Additionally, we are not talking about finger releases, or button pressure, etc. 

Now bareshafts and fletched shaft fly differently for many reasons and the drag affects are different on each arrow. (for general purposes of this discussion, bare shafts will actually fly in a overall curve, while fletched arrows will fly straight. and the FOC will determin the if a bareshaft will steadily curve or if it will serpentine but overall to a curved direction).

Initially, when an arrow is shot, it will have some rotation (a velocity in a direction other than it's intended flight), the fletchings will straighten this out fairly quickly and the arrow will continue in the intended flight direction. By conducting the walkback test you have found the position of the rest where this occurance has the least amount of affect on group size. We have minimized the initial rotation.

However, we need not disect all the flight characteristics of the arrow to properly find the ideal centershot location for the arrows that we are going to be shooting. We just need to do it.


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## strungout

> We have minimized the initial rotation.


Like I said or implied, you indeed just confirmed that rotation is what it be all about 
And it does apply for this and any and all discussions of any and all tuning methods period cause for most part people do not understand what makes an arrow continue on and off the intended courses...Fletching is a break of sort to a rotation whether it be an arrow of a different profile (fletched,bare, broadheaded) or of same exact profile as in the Walkback. Fact is many do not understand how the gap is closed between these arrows of the same exact type or of a differing type in the actual adjustments. It is key because without understanding it they only understand and picture a thing of closeness versus a longer distance reflecting the impact point on target.. Not sure if that sentance will be understood but basically without understanding the rotation and drag part you can never really understand where the "/" and "\" comes about,is fixed, and why it is reflection of the foregiveness of a setup. The minimalization of rotation and flex in any and all setups reflects accuracy or in other terms foregiveness. ..We can go on just handing people tools but without them knowing how to use them and what they are for they may try build a tent with a hammer... (wiat a sec, a hammer is used for the stakes, lol)..
There is parts of this method that require talk concerning spine and where the method parts way to more knowledge and meshes with the other ones. It is not so clear cut and fixed in stone as some may want. Yes it works superb until someone experiences problems and then calls it bogus..


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## RobVos

Granted, and you provide a lot of good information and I am sure that there are several of us who would really like to see you scematics that you are putting together. However, I also believe that for the majority of guys reading these posts, they are more interested in just getting their bows shooting as well as they can and are not really interested in the "why" of it (especially if it gets overly technical). I am willing to bet that a large number of people reading these posts say "huh?" and start skipping over this stuff. There is a reason I followed up 'rotation' with what it is in parenthasis as many would think I was referring to gyroscopic rotation, but I wasn't. You knew this, but how many others did not? :smile: 

So I think this thread has been excellent in all aspects: stimulated thought and discussion, provided a lot of information, gave new alternatives to some who now have a new technique, and provided some technical explainations for those interested. :beer: :beer:


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## strungout

Yes Rob, Nothing much compares to simplicity based around trust but were all heathen animals 

I myself am totally butt backwards as compared to the masses and I am somewhat of a rock... Now there is a little hint concerning my schematic..
i.e.- our feathered friends just fly away off the rock after poopen..


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## steerwrestler

will this just help getting feild points to line up center or will this also be the same as paper tuning for broadheads like it says in the tuning guide sorry if i missed understud?


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## strungout

Am sure heaps of us have missed-under-a-stud with points sometime or an-udder....lol, JK, couldn't resist 

This is not same as papertuning broadheads but it will work more precisely at getting your broadheads in a straight up and down line at all distances as well as make yer bow as foregiving in the horizontal as you can. You will not be able to precisley measure a paper tare and know what it represents downrange on an animal at 50 yards. Most of broadhead tuning is making sure they be fit correctly to your arrow and have same weight as field tips, spin correctly without any wobble on end of shaft, proper weight arrow and FOC for task(weight towards the front), and sufficiant fletching working to keep them from straying on ya. Even then you may get ahold of a fickle broadhead that doesn't want to fly where yer field tips go due to airplaning..
Paper tuning is an aquired taste. I don't care for it.Is only good for you to not stick an arrow in yer neighbors dog or cow by accident and right when ya leave a shop brand new..
I mix tuning methods at different stages..
I suggest a little bit of bareshaft tuning with fields from about 15 yards secondly Only after first eyeballing centershot between string(aligned within cam grove) and arrow tip. Tip dead even to half a tip outside werks most bows I've messed with. This will save the cow and save time, a tree, and of course the time spent foolin with it... 
The Bare Method is good to get the verticle nock positioning mainly and any extremely whacked out happenings in the horizontal not associated with spine issues closer. You can also get yer first few pin sights close enough to prepair for the longer distance tuning you will be doing later. Lost or smashed arrows are a pain so don't shoot less yer confident where they will go or fall  . What I am saying is you can't jump into any long shots without first knowing approxamatley how far down the sight slot the next yardage pin will likely need to be installed or how tall yer target will need to be for the walkback tuning. But so once yer close witht he bare shaft deal and within maybe 3 to 5 inches of yer fletched and sighted in also then Walkback tune with fields for an absolute straight up/down line. No straight line at all yardages then keep adjusting rest position or the other methods of changing spine within a system to get any curve out of the pattern. Then go back and confrim your bare shaft with field tips is good out to 20 to 25 yards as in the tuning guides within a few inches or so with nocks straight also. (My last walkback left the bare shaft test touching my fields but that is not required)...
Only from this point would I suggest broadhead tuning of any level. Do some Walkback with them and see if all is good. Probably will be. If not then either change the broadhead brand if they spin good, fix the arrow spine issue that you missed, or fix the nock point that was not rechecked after one of the windage adjustments you made, or live with the idea that you will then spend another day group tuning to see if they get any closer. You will have to resight in for just the goal of broadhead shooting. Forget all about shooting anything else probably if you pick the last fix..  .. I know I'de hate to have to remember that my fields shoot another spot then broadheads. Been there doen that.. Good luck..


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## timboj

zenarch said:


> Guys,
> I've done some testing on this and I'm able to mis-adjust my centershot, correct with windage on the sight at 20 yds and hit the line at longer distances.
> I doub the idea of the arrow hitting the spot at 20 yds but not traveling straight when it hits.If it hasn't straightened up at 20 yds, your bow needs some work. The arrow still follows a straight path anyway even if it's not flying well. It may swing from left to right but the main result is a 0 deviation from the straight line.
> I need someone to explain how the arrow hits dead center at 20 yds and then mysteriously changes it's path to a different line heading toward the 40 yd target. The only thing I can think of is that you're not really right at 20 yds.
> I do agree that an initial kick can cause a miss at short yardage but once the arrow has recovered and is going straight it's path is set till it hits the ground.
> It's an interesting thread though and kind of fits in with Old Pro's 4th axis thread. Thanks for contributing your ideas.
> I also think that Bow-Zo aims at the spot at all distances and not at the string. The string is there just to show you the results. Aiming at a vertical line is helpful, however, when adjusting your windage at any distance.
> Joe B.


Think of it as you would a scoped rifle. The line of sight through the scope (pin) simply INTERSECTS with the path of the bullet (arrow) at a predetermined distance. 

If the centershot is set dead nuts on, the arrow will continue on a straight path of travel left & right, until it hits the target. 

If centershot is not dead nuts on, the arrow has simply INTERSECTED the left/right path of travel or the arrow.


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## SEOBowhntr

ZenArch, 
I don't think you quite understand the idea of Walk back tuning. An arrow may fly straight, but it must impact at the on the same plane as the sights are on. Flying straight does not necessarily mean it is on the same plane as the sights. Look a the roughly draw attached picture, noting that the line intersects as showing 2 separate planes, with an increasing distance of variation as they continue away from the point of intersection.


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## strungout

How'bout something like this..


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## ArchersParadox

*Excellent thread!!

Screw on your broadheads and see the results.

The Proof in in the PROVERBIAL PUDDING!!


By the way...what did they say about those wRIGHT Brothers from Ohio? :thumbs_up *


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## Supershot

Great info


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## [email protected]

Rob,

Thanks for the drawings. The light finally "clicked on". 

I can see how this would work with dual cams, cam and 1/2, or a 1 cam that the idler and lower cam are aligned, but how about on a 1 cam (or any bow) that the eccentrics aren't in vertical alignment?

It would seem that any bow that doesn't have all 4 things (upper eccentric, peep,nock point, lower eccentric) in perfect vertical alignment, that you'd would always be fighting the left/right grouping problem.

Obviously we're talking a very small angle between peep and nock point. Maybe it wouldn't be noticable except in a shooting machine?

Larry


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## strungout

:mg:


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## strungout

Food for thought..

If arrows flew in straight lines at no matter the starting angle there would be a problem with both Robs last drawing and this next one I present. 
Sorry Rob no offense intended, but it is meant to show my outlook on yer last one that I called inadaquate for the discussion...
I look at that one picture as having to do with canting the bow and/or skewing the testing procedure...
This picture is flawed also without having a curve in one of the flight pathes to reflect my overall drag/rotation point as I had in my last drawing for sake of showing some devils advocacy we see from the other side...It should show why both drawings are not why walkback works or doesn't cause both tests result in short and long range arrows falling on straight path. Seems to me the folks from the Doesn't side only assume a straight flight path which is not the case, and some from the Does side still claim it works due to this straight onward left or right idea..Hope I can help and am not doing more harm than good here..  

Assuming two rest adjustments to equipment (rest adjust) during a Walkback tuning procedure :


1. Is a rest adjust
2. Is the single 20 yard sight pin being resighted in after the adjust to see if we made any difference. (We do test all over again)
3. Is the absolute automatic dragging over of our peep and recentering peep within during the new confirm test.

All four equipment nodes come into alingment again from having to resight in after the adjust, and if arrows flew straight we would then again see all arrows fall on a straight line at no matter the distance. We do not start canting cause we took some shots and arrows don't fly straight... That #1 move of rest makes us adjust sight before next test. Don't know how to make it any clearer that the arrow angle at start off creates the symtom of the slanting pattern via a curved flight path instead of through optical alignment trickery of a sort..


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## RobVos

Yes, you are correct about the poor centershot position giving the angle rotation, however, a fletched arrow will correct that rotation and it will not follow the curved path for it's entire flight (assuming no other external forces, such as wind), it will start out on it and then rather quickly straighten out. Bare shafts will indeed fly in the curve, but depending on the FOC would serpentine about that curve or not. 

Severe canting will skew the results, it would be like trying to shoot a RH bow at all distances with your left eye.

Bottom line is that the flight path of the arrow and the line of sight need to be coplaner to be able to hit at all distances.


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## ArrowAction

I had to step back and think about this, I misunderstood what the topic was about at first.

At first I thought it was about curing right and left groups. Now I see its about arrow rest position only. It falls into my thoughts that everything needs to be set up by shooting arrows at longer range instead of the short cuts of paper tuning, bare shaft tuning, visual cam tuning and sight level tuning without a shooting test.

It might be on or bring me closer to my group tuning. Group tuning is the last step of arrow rest position for me. I see how this walk back test might save me time on this over paper tuning only. I'll give this a try after my broken foot heals, I think this is worth a try and is a good topic.

Someone asked about when to adjust the 4th axis. The 4th axis adjustment is the last step of adjustment. It must be done after the arrow rest is adjusted in the final position. And after the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd axis is set in a sight leveler. This needs to be done in a sight leveler, not on a bow.

Now its time for a APOLOGY from me. Last month I had several medical issues surface. I let my self pity effect my judgment on a few posts. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. On that note get check ups now and then.

Thanks, Ken Stanislawski, also known as Mag-Tek


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## strungout

Since it is appology day I will go ahead and own up to fact that my self doubt is alive and well concerning how much the forward flight path continues to change with the fletched arrows downrange. 
Now I know I have mentioned the JoeTapley site for reference and if we were to read that whole site we may see that most info provided is talked about as set in stone and you can tell the writer really believes what he says. But then in other parts you will hear him step back away and admit his lack of experience or knowledge. It is rare in there but the Walkback section is indeed the most whishy washy section in there. It is almost uncomprehendable and he in fact seems to delve into the text intending to discredit the method but then goes ahead and validates it. He talks about the optical alignments and canting and moving the sights also ending up making the method useless but then basically does say the pattern can be made if in fact the optical alingments are kept in plane with the bow, etc. It is almost like he wants us to leave us thinking it is 'Black Magic' like he talks about in other sections...He talks about the "C" and backward "C" pattern results in terms of button position and spring adjust to the level that we can infer the text as being dated..
My problem over all is determining how much deviation from its intended course does a rotating fletched arrow(off center) experience downrange. Do I want to believe that it kicks out to side off angle and then the fletching fixes it totally and goes straight back along my intended course(line to target) or is the course changing up until absolutely no sepentine back and forth is happening?.. If I delve real deep in there I find talk about a bare shaft rotation ending up being faster long range which brings it back over and across the fletched arrows path and falls hitting low in a verticle test due to gravity. Well so it does not say that the fletched course is fixed totally just more along the lines that it reduces and he is talking way out at the 90 meter distances not our common distances of 20 to 50 yard. But now that is verticle talk consideration... His first pic showing a serpintine path through paper is troublesome in that in the horizontal I think he is implying that it happens at the longer yardages as well. I can almost prove that the path is not totally fixed and deviation continues until Our target by the idea of just adding more fletching to another arrow and giving it a go. I bet at our distances the thing would show less deviation from the intended path (line of our sight) yet always be off our plumb to the side we have misadjusted our rest. Another scenario would be if I was to measure the initial kick out of my fletched arrow to the side and then go ahead and shoot along a wall allowing for that measurement. Is my arrow going to hit that wall or will it go straight along it for an imaginary distance of lets say a mile and hit my target only that measured distance off the bull. I doubt it as if it is still under power I suggest it is still experiencing oscilating magnification towards the outside with serpentine and angle and will be dragged out until it looses power...Am not saying it will point that direction directly but rather pulled as a whole. The sections on arrow rotation or bareshafting suggest that the bare shaft early in flight does not rotate off intended Power path as much as fletched. So both head out on same course but with rotation. Now where is the indended path(our target,line of sight), where is the powered path, and where is the difference between the two arrows? In our distances the difference between is closer to the bare shaft in the beginning cause the fletched rotates quiker hence deviating more from this unseen or imaginary direction. Why I say that? Because it has to be logically between the two differing arrows in a two shot compare. Some have it inside each sepperate arrows oscilation..I want to say hogwash to that. Now tell me this... which arrow is outside this imaginary line/power differance/ fractionally seperated gap compared to the target line of sight? If it is the bare then we see the fletched arrow correcting out and away from the bull torwards that intended line of difference and our sight pin is never right until, walla, I have lift off!. Maybe we now have a contrast showing the real intentional power path being between the fletched and bareshaft and not between fletched and target bullseye. Remember it is explained in depth in that text that the later rotating bareshaft gets more total drag in the end.. Ok I am rambling pointlessly, sorry. But if, and that is a big if, the line is pretty much straight and doesn't change(magnify) long range then we can call all these fletched arrows the same and my last pic sides with the devils advocating as worthless Walkback method cause for one, I shoot with no cant and line everything up....
Please foregive the rambling, I know it is almost uninteligable and "uncomprehendable"... The learning curve continues.. I call the bare shaft the "rock" in the early stages as it deviates less from the direction of power less. In fact, in my scematic drawings the idea can be correlated directly and mixed between paper tune, bare shaft tune, and walkback tune, I guarantee ya. I know it sounds all backwards as I explain it. Part of the concept includes hypothetically calibrating down the bare shaft to being the intended power direction of travel due to it deviating less..we can call it zero. sorry, still rambling...basically yer sight pin belongs in between where the power is cause you will never shoot in real with a zero arrow...
Ok, no questions please...I do applogize in advance..


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## zenarch

Here are some pics and text from Larry Wise's book "Tuning your compound bow". These are the books only references to center shot. Notice in the last one the lack of reference to center shot.
Joe B.


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## zenarch

Some final thoughts on center shot as I fade into the background on the subject.
1) I've been shooting bows since 1963 when the nearest you could get your arrow to centershot was about 1/4" left of center and I've never had two sight tapes, one for elevation and one for windage.
2) I hope all of the complexity you guys are reading into a simple adjustment doesn't scare a lot of people away. Vectors, revolutions, curving arrow paths, wow, my head is spinning.
3) As far as the arrow path vector crossing the sight line vector at 20 yds, NOT. When the string hits brace height, the arrow nock and the peep are on the same vertical line and if the arrow points to the left or right when it leaves the string it is moving away from the line of sight and will never cross it at any time.
4) Take a tip from Larry's book. EYEBALL YOUR CENTER SHOT TO BE IN LINE WITH YOUR HANDLE CENTER AND MOVE ON TO MORE IMPORTANT THINGS.
Joe B.


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## ArchersParadox

*Well I can HONESTLY say that the walk-back method WORKED for ME!!


Where is the Proof?

Well, after carefully reading the 7 pages of posts on this particular thread, I decided to see how I could do. I worked my way back and forth from 20 yards to 50 yards. Made some windage adjustments on my Schaffer Drop-away, checked my 20 yard pin, etc...etc.


As a final check. I took one of my hunting arrows tipped with a NAP 100 gr. Nitron and started shooting at 50 yards. I shot one (1) arrow 6 times.

That is, walked to my Nikom 440 "lasered" 50 yard mark, shot. Walked to the target, shot again, repeated 4 more times.

My 50 yard group for (6) BH arrows was roughly 5" and centered on the vertical black line on my cardboard target.

Does it work?

Well, it works for me.

And I suppose when I'm 22' in the air come Nov. 1 when that 150-class Ohio WT buck steps out at 35 yards....

.....I'll know for sure!! :shade: *

P.S. that's a BEAUTIFUL thing when your BH arrows are flying dead-nuts straight!!


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## Bow-zo

*So Sorry!*

Hi joe, Hope all went well at the IBO.
Sorry to hear you are still not convinced that center shot is critical. I have great respect for Larry Wise but he is only human and not the "know all end all" of archery. He most likely could set his center shot very accurate without this method. I have read his books also and his methods do not work for me. So what would I do next? Just what I did do.."try something different." There are two books or magazine articals that recommend the use for every one against. That is all old and out dated info anyway. (he is using paper) LOL!

Like I said over and over I started this for the new guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is their best shot at correct center shot without knowing any other way or anything technical about their new bow. It will have them shooting in hours not days. Now "THAT" I am sure you understand.
You are bound and determined to condem it. That is fine and your choice. All the drawings and all the famous books can not change the fact that it works and I for one could not shoot at my current level without using it.

*2) I hope all of the complexity you guys are reading into a simple adjustment doesn't scare a lot of people away. Vectors, revolutions, curving arrow paths, wow, my head is spinning.*

I think all the positive comments here prove no one is scared off. The only one scaring people off is you. LOL! (just kidding) This kind of indepth discussion is good and what A/T is all about my friend. There are plenty of us that thrive on the technical aspects of archery. It is very plain to see you are not one of them.
By the way.. I have already made 1000 copies of this thread. It will be in print soon. I am going to call it.
"JOE'S *NOT* HOW-TO TUNE YOUR COMPOUND BOW" 
You know I am just trying to be funny at your expense Joe..No offence intended. (i consider you a friend or i would not kid you)

*4) Take a tip from Larry's book. EYEBALL YOUR CENTER SHOT TO BE IN LINE WITH YOUR HANDLE CENTER AND MOVE ON TO MORE IMPORTANT THINGS.*

Not a very good tip! The string track on most if not all single cam bows is not in the center of the handle. Even if it was bow torque at full draw would move it. (But then again if center shot is not critical to you this "eyeballing" would be O.K.) but to a good many of us correct center shot is one of the most "IMPORTANT THINGS" we can think of. 
You have the opportunity to meet and ask many Pro's there prefered method. 
If you have not already start making a list. It would be the makings of a very interesting thread. Another "Straight Talk from the Pro's" so to speak.
I bet you could sell it. LOL!

Have fun Joe. Maybe we will meet again soon. You do not know me I am sure but I talked to you about back tension for quite a little while at Vegas a few years back. You talked me into your no punch starter kit. It has been one of my better archery stepping stones and I recommend it to any wanting to learn B/T. 
Just for any that may be interested. "BACK TENSION" and the proper use of "will" put you to the next level in your game. (right after you master the walk back of course) LOL!

Thanks Joe we sure could use a few more like you in this game.
Dave! 
(by the way i will call ya soon and order a couple .004 clicker cams. mine are starting to go off at the click even after I clean them) 



Hey Mag Tech! Good to hear back from ya.
No harm no foul man. A/T is the best place bar none for good wholesome discussions about what we all love. We (or at least I) like to hear from all.
If we keep it positive and upbuilding to the sport we have a lot to learn and gain from everyones comments. 
Many of these guys only have A/T to turn to for help. With so few "good" pro shops and not near enough coaches in the world this place is invaluable to thousands. And like you said..We do have to weed through some of the B/S.

We just have to remember to "Have Fun..It's just a Game."

Thanks again Ken!
Dave


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## strungout

lmaof @ myself..that was way long stuff I wrote up there, gee wiz..  

funny thing is... am not done yet. Have to make sure to work into here at some point a better phraze term like 'airplane yaw inducing drift'  


..but hey zen, 

pssst..come now :secret: 


> 4) Take a tip from Larry's book. EYEBALL YOUR CENTER SHOT TO BE IN LINE WITH YOUR HANDLE CENTER AND MOVE ON TO MORE IMPORTANT THINGS.
> Joe B.


... ya really got the tip right after I wrote about eyeballs in that other thread?.. haha..just funnen ya..  



> Strungout wrote 2:52pm: Eyeball behind yer string and make sure the pin is in line where your string is supposed to be (string slightly left of center of bow limbs due to cam or wheels being offset a tad on compounds)... i.e.-confirm string is right in center of cam groove and pin is inline with that view...


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## Jerry/NJ

I have followed this thread since it started and I want to give kudos to Bow_zo for starting it as I feel you helped alot of people get their bows better tuned. 
I want to thank everyone else for adding good input and keeping the thread a great one and not turned into one with arguing which method is better. I tip my hat to you all, very well done ! :thumbs_up


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## RobVos

Strungout,

Check out the videos here:

http://archerysite.net/smf/index.php?topic=3064.0

I had to save them to the disk and then open them to get them to play.
Regarding Joe Tapley's Website, there is a ton of great info there, but always keep in mind his analysis is based on recurve bows and finger releases and his methods are taylored to this type of bow and shooting. Hence all the discussion about the button pressure and the concentration on what is happening in the horizontal plane with a finger "loose" or release.

If you look at the video above showing a compound bow with a mechanical release (topic of our discussion here) you will see that very little is occuring in the horizontal plane with that arrow upon release. Much more would happen if the centershot is significantly off from the ideal position. When using the walkback to find centershot, you will have minimized effects in that horizontal plane to the point where they will induce nearly no rotation on the arrow.


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## strungout

Yes Rob, Not sure why your telling me all that when I know it well and said in so many words that his info was dated. I understand well all about paradox and then how big the centershot can be off and still shoot fine enough. Realize I am a proponent to the method specific with getting pins inline for sights that have no horizontal adjust. As far as an idea that the center shot is unimportant by some people, I say hogwash and I also say that whomever wants to imply there is not much going on rotation wise and there is some huge room for adjust that they should look and see where their bareshaft and broadheads go cause I am sure they will beg to differ...And if they don't dimes at 20 yards will... (just so you know I am after a bit more always)
Who was the guy that was talking about having to have the bow somewhat optically alinged first between pins, rest and string? Oh yea, it was Tapley on that site. That part is the most valid part in that section... :wink:


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## RobVos

Cool, I think we are on the same page.  

You know how sometime we read into things and misinterpret written statements at times, and I surely am not immune to that.


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## strungout

Yea cool.. that be it,, we on same page but dif paragragh. Maybe yer on summation and I on details :slice: .. misinterprit is the thing as you say cause in the written word we mostly read into peoples statements as if we think they left out a word so we go a suiten up ous self for our own affirmation. I try not to do much of the straying from what is actually meant & that is perhaps a main reason I get long winded... Oh yea, I also talk in 3rd person like an idiot and laugh at myself,lol.. Then sometimes I ask out aloud questions as food for thought for everyone and is not really meant for myself to get an answer.. Is more of a route to logical deduction I suppose. :tongue: 

On an off topic to yer humility based imunity...If there is something I want to be imune to right now is this West Nile Virus over here.. They be sprayin for the bloodsuckers everyday up and down the river I next to. :mg:


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## rooster61

What is the 4th axis!?


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## Parker Guy

Hey Guys,

I have just finished reading all the posts. I have been shooting, spot only, for about two years now and I have tuned every bow (three) I've owned except the first one. I have always set my center shot adjustment with an EZE laser center shot tool and level the arrow perpendicular to the string. I have never seen or experienced any odd arrow flight. It shoots a slightly high (1/2 to 3/4") left tare for which I am told is the norm.

By using the laser, I believe if I understand it correctly, sets the 4th axis also unless the sight bar is bent. I did a walk back check yesterday at 11 yards sight setting back to 55 yards, any further I would hit the ground. I hit 4 out of six arrows between 1 and 3 inches to the right. just for the heck of it I added two left clicks on my pro-tuner, but that did not seem to have any effects on my group and I don't think two click would make too much of a difference. Or does it?

Why isn't the use of the center shot tool that popular? I would think if you are shooting the properly spined shafts that this would be the optimal setup. I would think if you would have to adjust left or right from the center achieved by the lazar then you are trying to adjust for improper spined arrows? 

Am I way off base?


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## Parker Guy

Here's another thought....

If using the Center Shot tool isn't an accurate way of setting the rests center shot (would like to hear the reasons why) then can it be used to set the 4th axis?

In other words, after you use all of your favorite ways of tuning then on the last adjustment, 4th axis, can the laser be mounted to the sight bar then adjusted to the center of the arrow shaft? I would think that would get your 4th axis dead nuts...

Comments?


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## Bow-zo

*Full Draw?*

Hey Parker Guy, how are ya? Welcome to the thread.
You ask a very good question.
The problem I have had with C/S tools is the ability to use them at full draw.
Bow hand torque, cable guard torque , cam lean will change how everything lines up at full draw.
Shooting the bow is the best way because you can see the effects right away.
One or two clicks will show up at longer distances. The original post of mine shows the holes in the cardboard that were made while I tuned my protuner.
I only moved mine 4 clicks and it put the arrows on the right side of the string. I moved it back 2 clicks and they all landed in the center.
If I leave my rest a click or two off right or left my groups at long range are not near as tight as they are once I find the center. A point I have been trying to make from the begining of this post. "My groups are not as good from 60 -100 yards unless I get the center shot just right" so center shot for me is very, very critical. I think and in my own experience the walk back method is the fastest most accurate way to get me there. I have found over the years that after I perform the W/B for my center shot other tuning to the rest such as paper tuning or horizontal group tuning afterwards has no benefit to my groups showing me the walk back tuning set my rest right where it needs to be in the first place. 
If you have the room and really want your rest absolutly dead nuts on try the walk back from 20 to 50 yds. as outlined at the beginning of this thread.Once you have the arrows hitting the line at 50 shoot a group from 50 at the center using the 50yd pin hang your string and walk back to 70. Then repeat from 70 to 80. The farther back you can walk the more precise you can adjust the rest. I think some of you have found you can not shoot 20yd. then walk back to 70. The arrows are in the dirt but if you repeat the shooting using the 50yd setting instead of the 20 you can walk back to 60 or 70.

4th axis aligns the sight bar with the arrow "path". This will allow the arrow to hit the center of the spot when shooting up or down hill. It is a different setting than 3rd axis and imho should be done last after all the other scope and rest settings have been made. Again the c/s alignment tools my not be able to accomplish this due to the above mentioned torque.
In my opinion "most" tuning is best done while shooting the bow. You not only see the effects of your efforts right away but you know the tuning step actually caused the effect you are looking for. Tools look good and work in theory but the only way to be sure is shoot it.
I know when I tune a bow what is going to happen before I make an adjustment and the outcome comfirms it. Tuning tools will get you close and give you a starting point but once you establish a tuning routine you will find faster ways (eyeballing LOL!) to get a *starting point * and the tools will sit in the tool box. 
Good luck PG...Dave!


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## Parker Guy

Thanks for the reply Bow-zo. Any chance you've checked you final centers hot setting, not at full draw, with a laser? Just curious of what the results would be? Do you have the ability to check? 

I was going to ask if that was possible to get tuned from 20 to 50 then from 50 to 70. I will do that tonight.


Thanks


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## Bow-zo

To be honest with you I have not. I have a lazer tool I use to align my cams at rest and again at full draw but have not used it to check C/S. Not sure if it will work for that? I do know that many bows will change however because I have seen the tip of the arrow move and point in a different direction after drawing the bow other than right down the stabilizer like it does at rest.
The cable gaurd will torque it over as will hand pressure point on the grip and the way or style of your anchor.
That is why center shot for one person may not be the same for another. Something a lazer can not compensate for.
This is why consistant form and anchor are so important.
Hope this helps..Dave!


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## strungout

I would say no it is not an accurate way once you figure in what bowzo said of the difference between full draw and while at rest. But should be about as equivalent as eyeballing if you include yourself into the aligning process behind string and looking at pin and arrow tip, etc. for an at rest starting point. The Walkback is like a compensation for a given setup mainly and to a lesser degree for a given person. Meaning that once you get it right for you, you can hand the bow to another and they maybe off a tad from form but it will be close. Since the result is what your after though it works for exactly that. 
There is a ***** in this whole idea if we think the symtom or adjust we make is independent of the other axis(verticle nock) or will have same effect on all arrows you will put throgh your bow (fletched, bares, or broadheaded). If you were to tell me you can shoot any of the 3 arrows at all poundage ranges of your bow and or at any verticle nock position from one single centershot position I would say yer nuts and off yer rocker. Since nothing is independent then logically you can and must compensate and find middle ground with any of the items of adjustment mentioned in search of a canceling balanced position. Perhaps some will call that a crazy statement..if so, sorry, can't help ya there..
But so my deeper goal is not just finding a straight up and down line with fletched shafts but rather finding a straight up and down line with all shafts. Addressing nock height and spinage of bow/arrow system can either help or hamper your efforts at that goal. Hopefully if we do our homework right we can get away without making too much change to anything.

With respect to hunting, you can walkback tune any of the 3 arrows without regard to the other arrows but there is good chance yer specific setup will not have the accuracy or penetration it could have. You can adjust that centershot alone for only your broadheads to get you in the field without individual windage adjusts to your sight pins is what I am saying but I don't recommend it.


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## DwayneR

Hello Bow Zo,

Question for you....So far, all of this talk I am assuming is for a Peep in the String kind of situation. The peep is aligned in the string, aligned with the nock...aligned with the arrow... aligned with the rest.

Now my question... I shoot with a No-Peep. This basically means that *my* eye alignment is NOT aligned with the string, but is over to the side of the string by about 1"? (Just guessing here).

Should I do the walkback technic, and allow all my arrows to hit 1 Inch to the right of center...because of the kind of setup my bow has?

Dwayne


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## strungout

*I see good things in that post!*

Instead of mythbuster......we got Dwayne the peepbuster.... :wink: cheers!! :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Bow-zo

*No peep?*

Hi Dwayne,
When you say "no peep" do you mean one of those gizmos that you look at when at full draw to make sure you are not torquing the bow? It centers two circles or something like that???
I would say no! Or actually you could if the 20yd. arrow is also 1" over to the right. What you want is "ALL" the arrows from 20 to ??? to be in a straight vertical line.
If you normally sight your bow in (and I am sure you do) to be dead center of the spot at 20yd. then I would do the walk back to also be dead center.
You will know if you have it right because your arrows will hit the string from all distances and you will not have to align your pins diagonally as you stated in one of your earlier post. They will be straight up and down just like the arrows. In your case you will have all the above in alignment with each other except the peep.
The main objective here is to have the "tip" of the arrow in perfect alignment with the sting as it returns to brace. All else being equal and set up properly the string will push the arrow in a straight path to the target. 
When you think of it in that light it is very simple to understand (and logical) what you are trying to achieve.
Dave!


You crack me up strungout! LOL! I really enjoy and appreciate reading your post. :wink: 
I did a search for all the threads you posted to so I could read more.
You have much to contribute to A/T and add some humor at the same time.
I for one appreciate your here. "Spew less" says it all! :beer: "have one on me."
Thanks.. Dave!


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## RobVos

Dwayne,

Now I see why before you stated that your pins are angled -- this has to be the case when your line of sight is not coplaner with the arrow path. You are thus shifting your line of sight at each pin setting to find the intersection with the arrow path. So the walk back as described here using only one pin setting will not work for you because your "rear sight" is off to the side.

I have used a No-peep in the past for hunting, and I always set it up with my line of sight as close to the string as possible. Since I did not use a sight where pins could be offset, I zeroed mine for the mid range hunting distances. My line of sight plane was only slightly off, thus I was not significantly off at any distance out to 45-50 yards or so and well within hunting accuracy. This is the case with 99% of those who use the No-peep type devices.


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## DwayneR

Hello Bow Zo,

First of all, thank you very much for responding back...I appreciate it.

BowZo>>When you say "no peep" do you mean one of those gizmos that you look at when at full draw to make sure you are not torquing the bow? It centers two circles or something like that???<<

Yes, I use timberline No-Peeps. But you describe them perfectly.

BowZo>>I would say no! Or actually you could if the 20yd. arrow is also 1" over to the right. What you want is "ALL" the arrows from 20 to ??? to be in a straight vertical line.<<

Yes... I would venture to say, the only way for my setup to work, is for all my arrows to be 1 inch to the right... which is the distance my eye is offset from the string.....

With THIS in mind, I question a bows "Alignment". I used to shoot a Havoc with a peep site... and I still had slanted pins. How do we know a bow is in a possible perfect alignment? A small tilt of the cams, a offset of the string to the bowlimbs. etc.?

Bow Zo>>If you normally sight your bow in (and I am sure you do)<<

I have a problem with this...every time a shoot, I have a arrow that is 5 times longer than what I started out with.... :wink: .....

to be dead center of the spot at 20yd. then I would do the walk back to also be dead center.<<

Ok... Now the problem.. Mathematically it CAN'T be dead center. because the no-peep is offsetting my eye to the "real" alignment of everything else!...This is why I ask that in reality, I should be tuning all my arrows approx 1 inch (or however far my eye is from the center of the string) to the right of all of my targets. And this is assuming that my bow will stay in the perfect alignment from full draw to collapse state.

Do we understand each other? or are we on two different frequencies? Dave, I am not saying you are wrong...no way... I am only trying to apply your technic to my setup, and attempting to explain to MYSELF why MY setup may (or maynot) work, and why.

Dave>>The main objective here is to have the "tip" of the arrow in perfect alignment with the sting as it returns to brace. All else being equal and set up properly the string will push the arrow in a straight path to the target. 
When you think of it in that light it is very simple to understand (and logical) what you are trying to achieve.<<

Thanks Dave... thank you a million. I will "Eyeball" it, and align that arrow right down that string the best I can.

now, another problem...(which hasn't happened yet.. but may happen...)

Right now, I can shoot a shaft... That shaft is right there with my other arrows... I am FAIRLY certain that my shafts will NOT hit anywhere CLOSE to where my feathered arrows are hitting now, if I Jocky with my rest. IF this is so, how do you justify a bow that cannot shoot a bare shaft straight and true?

Dwayne


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## DwayneR

Hello RobVos,

R>>Now I see why before you stated that your pins are angled -- this has to be the case when your line of sight is not coplaner with the arrow path. You are thus shifting your line of sight at each pin setting to find the intersection with the arrow path. So the walk back as described here using only one pin setting will not work for you because your "rear sight" is off to the side.<<

THANK YOU!... At least someone is seeing what I am seeing. Yes, This is what *I* believe is happening. Mathematically I can show it, I can describe it, and I can see this.

Rob, let me take you one step further ok? Maybe I can explain my delimma with the walkback method with your help, and maybe you can explain to me what I am thinking about that is incorrect ok?

You know how my nopeep sight works... Now, lets say I am using a Peep sight...But I think all of us agee that each of us has a different "Grip" That "Grip" can "throw the arrow off" by just a tad...For example... It is difficult for two people to pick up the same bow, and shoot at the same spot through the same sight.

With the above idea in mind, THAT bow can be perfectly aligned, but the grip of a persons hand can give a slight "torque"? that brings the bow with a slight "twist" out of alignment. Thus IMO (just guessing here) the walkback method would not truely align the bow, but actually would align the bow to the persons form. (which can be excellent)...But at the same time, what is the purpose of Bullet holes??? isn't that alignment to the Persons form too?

Now, lets play a little further. The walkback technic may be better to give a "finer" tune, because the errors are amplified and are easier to see at 50 yards, than 20. Thus, when tuned to 50, the 20 should be about perfect....

(I am just playing with thoughts here...)


Rob>>I have used a No-peep in the past for hunting, and I always set it up with my line of sight as close to the string as possible. Since I did not use a sight where pins could be offset, I zeroed mine for the mid range hunting distances.<<

Bingo... gotcha to the tee... This is EXACTLY what I would HAVE to do, if I did not have moveable, individual sight pins...Or I would have to take the whole sight and rotate it 10 degrees counter clockwise in order to align my pins verticle on a sight with only verticle pin movement.

Dwayne


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## strungout

Argghh ... I just wanna say that I wanna be waiting behind the string in the 2nd dimension hoping for the smallest 3rd dimensional response from my arrow around my 3rd axis world..  

I think we can get rid of Dwaynes canted pins (triangle made by eye, string, nock, and back to eye) by adjusting sight 3rd axis forward to compensate the amount he moved out from string and then loosening his sight mount on riser and turning it up to cancel the triangle made from eye,rest,pin,eye..
Then he be all straight pins but off tothe side?... sumthin like that anyway  :slice:


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## Bow-zo

Hey Dwayne,
I have no experiance with the "no peep" but I see your dilemma. One reason i have not tried one is I do not want something on my bow that takes my eyes and or attention from the target. Once I "hook up" and come to full draw i am fully and totally focused on the center of the center of the X. I like the idea of being able to look "through" and align the string (useing a peep) because the string is what delivers the arrow. It takes alignment and tuning problems such as you are facing now out of the process. Peep, sight pin, target all on the same plane. Again I must say I have not used one so my concerns my not be well founded. But it must add more angles and new tuning issues.
Do you use a kisser or somthing else in the rear to let you know your head is in the same place everytime? Or is such even needed with a No Peep? I thought the no peep was to make sure your grip is the same from shot to shot. (it is my turn to ask you a few ? LOL)

<<Dwayne>>You know how my nopeep sight works... Now, lets say I am using a Peep sight...But I think all of us agee that each of us has a different "Grip" That "Grip" can "throw the arrow off" by just a tad...For example... It is difficult for two people to pick up the same bow, and shoot at the same spot through the same sight.
With the above idea in mind, THAT bow can be perfectly aligned, but the grip of a persons hand can give a slight "torque"? that brings the bow with a slight "twist" out of alignment. Thus IMO (just guessing here) the walkback method would not truely align the bow, but actually would align the bow to the persons form. (which can be excellent)..

Your thinking here is mostly correct. I and others mention this fact in some of the earlier post. "the bow has to be tuned to the shooter" And for this precise reason is why "eyeballing and move on to more important things " will not work for final setup. It only gives you a strarting point to begin the tuning. Same for paper tuning. How many people "eyeball" the rest and go out and shoot a bullet hole? The final setup is achieved only after shooting the bow and making slight adjustments.You would be better served to eyeball everything then group tune or walk back, "what ever blows yer skirt up" and leave the paper on the roll in the mens room.  You will save yourself many hours of tuning and for most hours (days) of frustration. Everyone I know that paper tunes goes out and group tunes afterward anyway. Making minor adjustments to the rest, nock, sight ect. Why not just group tune to start with. My opinion paper is great for bare bow finger shooters to find arrow spine and maybe center shot but even they would benefit from group tuning. You never see any post about weird groups or other issues when a person is walk back tuning and needing help. The method is very simple and you truly do "walk back tune then move on to more important things"

<<Dwayne>>.But at the same time, what is the purpose of Bullet holes??? isn't that alignment to the Persons form too?

It can be..but there are to many variables involved and does not guarantee a straight flying arrow. You have to check for bullet holes at several distances to see if the arrow is truly flying straight. A bullet hole only shows you where your arrow is at that particular moment in time. You can have a left or right veering arrow and still get a bullet hole. It is to hard for most archers to achieve satisfactory results. They do not know what to do next when they meet a problem or get a tear they can not change or get rid of. There are many and varying opinions on how to paper tune correctly. This is because everyones results and how they got them are different. When I tried to paper tune several years ago I could get good bullet holes and when checked with the walk back the bow (rest) was way off. I still had diagonal pins and my groups were not that great. Maybe I did it wrong I don't know it was frustrating to say the least. One day bullet holes the next day tears I could throw a cat through without changing a thing. After walk back I have good days and bad days of course but for the most part my arrows are always on the string or in the center of the target. I just have to practice my form and back tension. I know it is up to me to deliver the arrow "make the shot" not wonder if I can shoot a bullet hole today and what to move or adjust if I do not. (i think you get my drift)
With the walk back everyone that uses it explains the method the same way when trying to help someone and they all get the same results. The results are plain, simple and immediate. The inexperianced archer knows what to do to get the results he wants and ends up with a good shooting bow for his effort in a very minimum amount of time. (sorry dwayne! i just realized it sounds like I am trying to convince you of the virtues of the method instead of addressing your dilemma) I am sure you understand the merits of the method you are just trying to find a way to apply them to your shooting style. (use a peep) LOL! :wink: 

To every problem there is a solution..To every solution there are exceptions! Not being more familiar with the no peep maybe your setup is the exception??

<<Dwayne>>Now, lets play a little further. The walkback technic may be better to give a "finer" tune, because the errors are amplified and are easier to see at 50 yards, than 20. Thus, when tuned to 50, the 20 should be about perfect....

That is correct and when tuned at 80 it is even more so. I mentioned in a earlier post and want to reiterate the fact that if you lay all the drawings,angles, mathematics, grip torque, string alignment, peep, no peep, finger release, mechanical release, this rest, that rest, 2nd axis, 3rd axis, 4th axis, anyother axis aside! Just forget "all" the things that make it work or not work for just one minute. The fact remains and everyone (including Joe LOL!) has to recognize..."If I (or you) can hit the string or get very close to it from 80yds. and shoot 80yd groups like the one I posted earlier how could I get my bow any better?" The left to right stringing or grouping is at its very best. I have not found another method that accomplishes this for me. Bullet holes will not put my arrows in the exact center from 20 to 80 yd. Even if I move the windage. Like I said previously I am either on at 20 and off everywhere else or on at 80 and off everywhere else.

I know there is a way..maybe strungout hit it? For you to apply the W/B to your style. ah..ah..um To peep or not to peep..That is the question!  LOL

I should make you feel better strungout...You are not the only one that rattles and rambles once you get started on a post..LOL!  
Good luck Dwayne....I think I am going to have some :slice: & :beer: 
Dave


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## DwayneR

Hello Dave,

Thanks Dave for taking time to answer... same with everyone else out there.

Dave>>Do you use a kisser or somthing else in the rear to let you know your head is in the same place everytime? Or is such even needed with a No Peep? I thought the no peep was to make sure your grip is the same from shot to shot. (it is my turn to ask you a few ? LOL)<<

No. I refuse to waste my time with a kisser. I know my head is in the same place every time, by the way my hand is "Settled" under my earlobe. In actuallity, you are correct, that you don't need anything to tell where your head is with a no-peep. BUT!!! I use the no-peep mainly for proper anchor and grip. I hardly ever use it anymore.... It is automatic, and everytime I drawback and anchor.... its "Dot" is centered properly. When I first used it, it showed my grip to be changing. Now it doesn't do that anymore....  

Dave>>Your thinking here is mostly correct. <<

Darn! there may be hope for me yet.... :angel: 

Dave>>With the walk back everyone that uses it explains the method the same way when trying to help someone and they all get the same results. The results are plain, simple and immediate. The inexperianced archer knows what to do to get the results he wants and ends up with a good shooting bow for his effort in a very minimum amount of time. (sorry dwayne! i just realized it sounds like I am trying to convince you of the virtues of the method instead of addressing your dilemma) I am sure you understand the merits of the method you are just trying to find a way to apply them to your shooting style. (use a peep) LOL! <<

A PEEP... That is a 4 LETTER word!

Dave>>I know there is a way..maybe strungout hit it? For you to apply the W/B to your style. ah..ah..um To peep or not to peep..That is the question! LOL<<

Well, believe it or not, you hit upon a very important part of my problem years ago.

Senario: Any bow...Peep site.

Inside target range.... adjust sight to hit those bullseyes...I am hitting white all the time (or most all the time) (I haven't hit a 300 yet...maybe someday). I practice throughout the summer...Hunting starts...I go outside pick a leaf on the ground...Presto... I am 6 to 8 inches to the left of it. (Dwayne's scratching his head at this point)....shoot more arrows... 6 to 8 inches to the left.....So I adjust sight thinking I bumped it. Come back home after a great hunt.... run up to indoor target... @#$# 6 to 8 inches to the RIGHT of the target... So...for the next 6 years or so I bring a target to hunting grounds for a "Checkup", and to "move" my sight to compensate for the 6 to 8 inches that always happens to me. Thus indoor/outdoor was about 6 to 8 inches difference on sight.

Senario: Any now... NO-PEEP sight.

My problem solved... What I hit inside on the target is what I hit outside on the target... no more target windage problems.

A couple of years ago, I met a competition shooter (muzzle), He told me there are a few folks out there that have the exact same problem that I have... and it changes day to day. He said they measure the distance between the Center of 3 shots for their score, not whether they hit the bullseye or not. It makes a difference on how the light enters your eye through a peep., or how the light enters your eye when looking at a object to center on. ( I just accepted his explaination.... Its the best I heard to describe the solution to my problem)

Anyhow... that is why I use No-Peep...I no longer have to play the windage game. 

Now that you have had some :slice: what do you think?

Dwayne


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## Bow-zo

*Wow!*

Ha! Ha! Boy Dwayne I think you might truly be the exception???
How are ya today?

You have a problem i have not heard of but I know your eyes can have alot to do with how you see a target. It is a very common practice for some to use a horizontal line (black tape) to set their sight pins for each distance. I can not do that. I have to use something round (bullseye or spot).
I can hit the center of a target with some regularity but when shooting at a horizontal line I am always 4-6 inches low??? I have trouble spliting my sight pins or scope with the tape? No problem vertically.
Have you tried useing a large peep of 3/16 to 1/4 inch. When you use a peep do you sight in centering the individual pin for the intended distance or do you center the entire pin guard so you see all your pins and the bubble?
I use a spot hog with a 3/16" peep on my hunting bow. The large peep lets in much more light and allows you to center the pin guard.

You know if I had your dilemma I would insert a peep just to get the center shot via walk back and then remove it and use the no peep. That way you know you rest is correct and the arrows are coming out straight. :thumbs_up 
Your diagonal pins are a product of the misaligned eye to string and as Rob mention conventional walk back will not work in your case although vertical arrow drop is still important and something you need to achieve.
Minimum horizontal spread can only be had if the arrows leave the bow very straight off the string. I really can not believe some of these other guys do not believe that to be true. It is common sense to know for a shaft of any kind to travel in a straight line has to be pushed in a straight line. 
If you can try the peep just for tuning and go back to the no peep.
Let us know if you try it.

Good luck and have fun Dwayne!

Dave!


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## DwayneR

Hello Dave,

Great to hear from you.

Dave>>Ha! Ha! Boy Dwayne I think you might truly be the exception???
How are ya today?<<

Seems like I am always sticking my neck out the wrong direction for something <g>. I just know that I am finally not having to play with windage any more...and that is a relief by itself.

Dave>>You have a problem i have not heard of but I know your eyes can have alot to do with how you see a target.<<

I also wonder if it is because of uncorrected stigmatism...I don't know...but I know it plays the willies on me if I look through a peep.

Dave>>Have you tried useing a large peep of 3/16 to 1/4 inch.<<

The last peep I purchased was a Pic-a-Peep... It had many different sizes of holes.... I can't remember what sizes. That did not work, so I removed it years ago... I DO love the way the smaller holes allow you to focus more on the target!...

Dave>> When you use a peep do you sight in centering the individual pin for the intended distance or do you center the entire pin guard so you see all your pins and the bubble?<<

I sighted in centering the individual pin for the intended distance.

Dave>>You know if I had your dilemma I would insert a peep just to get the center shot via walk back and then remove it and use the no peep.<<

this is why I asked if I should shoot everything about 1 inch to the right...That way, the "No-Peep" would be artificially placed in alignment with the arrow. (Quazi alignment I should say <g>).

Dave>>Your diagonal pins are a product of the misaligned eye to string and as Rob mention <<

This is not true... The diagonal was also with a regular peep sight too. That is how come I talked about rotating the sight counter clockwise to correct the diagonal pins. Since I didn't shoot past 30 yards, I just dealt with it...<g>.

Dave>>conventional walk back will not work in your case although vertical arrow drop is still important and something you need to achieve.<<

This is what I am thinking too...Thus..since my eye is approx 1 inch out, I should be approx 1 inch at all distances to the right of the string. Are we on the same wavelength here?

Dave>>Good luck and have fun Dwayne!<<

Thanks Bud, appreciate everything.

Dwayne


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## strungout

> Dave>>Your diagonal pins are a product of the misaligned eye to string and as Rob mention <<
> 
> This is not true... The diagonal was also with a regular peep sight too. That is how come I talked about rotating the sight counter clockwise to correct the diagonal pins. Since I didn't shoot past 30 yards, I just dealt with it...<g>.


Dwayne,

If you had same issue with peep (think that is what I read out of the above..) Then it was indeed a centershot/arrow spinage issue at that time. When behind string you took out every thing else besides the 3rd axis sight issue but that only matters on uphill/downhill shots with the different pins. Back when you had peep in and was shooting slanted pins you perhaps was not walkback tuning so we will never know. You would have had to weed the 3rd axis out by only shooting the one pin on flat ground as the WB requires...
Do think your really out an inch now with that NO-PEEP? If you shoot same slant pattern pins with eye to left an inch and then also from behind string and then maybe with eye an inch right then that pretty much weeds out the whole thing of worrying about making them new angles. (Think I refered to them as going 3D).. The pins would go from slant to straight to slant other way 
...


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## stodr

It would not be a sunlight problem unless you had a clarifier peep in. Do you have a level on your sight. If you do make sure it is perpendicular to the ground (standing on flat ground) It does not have to be perpendiculur to your bow or string, but it is easier to set up that way if it is. Some people have a natural cant when they aim the bow. Have somebody stand behind you to see if you are canting the bow. If you are, the pins will be angled.


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## The Walker

Here’s a thought.

Why not stand at 20 yards and shoot your scope/sight pin in. Shoot a group at the spot that is at the bottom end of a piece of tape or drawn line that is attached to the bale vertically using a level. Go back to 20 yards and move you scope/sight to 50 to 80 yards depending on how much bale you have to work with and shoot a group. Adjust you rest accordingly. Wouldn’t it be a little more accurate since (for me at least) holding a nice tight group is a lot easier at 20 yards then 80 yards?

Just a thought


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## strungout

The Walker,

Now there is an idea worthy of adoption for my candid agenda of killing off Paper tuning, hehe...as it would work just about as good... :teeth: 

The process of actually seeing the long range results downrange is what we're after in this walkback method. In doing such we are in essense waiting for the misaligned rest to show its ugly face... 
....It could be saying to your arrow behind your back "Sit on this and rotate..she'll never know".... and then your once happy and gay arrow says following the experience "Hay!, you rubbed me the wrong way, I wanna go straight" :tongue: ....

Tuning out around 50- 80 yards will tune your bow for those distances as well as the close in shots your speaking of at 20 yards. The process has nothing really to do with how well you can personally shoot at any distance...just pick the center of whatever size group you shoot at the 20 yards and hang any type of weight (plumbob) from an arrow and procede out as decribed in here earlier on to see arrow flight straight or not straight. Just goto 50 yard if your gonna run out of bale and but then start over with the 50 yard pin and go on out to 80 yards... Don't be surprised if when your done that your groups have become smaller and or your breaking nocks more often at 20 yards....Personally, I only been shooting one good arrow for the 20 yard plumb to hang from as breaking arrows is not really my bag. An interesting thing of archery is that once practiced at long range your way better at 20 to 30 then before... :thumbs_up


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## DwayneR

Hello Strungout!

S>>If you had same issue with peep (think that is what I read out of the above..) Then it was indeed a centershot/arrow spinage issue at that time. <<

<chuckle> Then I still have the same issue now <g> I still have pins diagonal top right to bottom left... with or without. But my problem of 6 to 8 inches left and right are solved with the No-peep.

Strungout>> Back when you had peep in and was shooting slanted pins you perhaps was not walkback tuning so we will never know.<<

yes Correct... Since I have not done the Walkback *yet*, (which I will do as soon as I can), we don't know right now.... But the Walkback supposingly should take care of this problem...logically... But at the same time, ruin my shaft tuning abilities, and paper tuning. Right now, I can shoot shafts or feathers, and they hit very close to each other. Nice and straight. I am only *assuming* that when I do this Walkback, my shaft vs feathers is going to go amok. And this is why I am using the word "Quasi" tune. This is why I really don't know the answer (until I try BOTH) whether it is better to have shafts and feathers at 20 yards together, or Shafts sacttered far away from the feathers at 20 yards because of the walkback. (Hey... I worked on getting those shafts to hit close to those feathers <chuckle>). At least I know they *should* be coming out of that bow somewhat nicely...I think...<g>

Strungout>>Do think your really out an inch now with that NO-PEEP?<<

I am guessing here, but I would not be surprised at 1 inch... Mainly because I decided long time ago, that I wanted my hand to be comfortable and not tight against my face... and #2, I wanted to wear a face mask while hunting... and that means fabric between the hand and the face. Its cold enough up here, and this weenie starts shivering at anything below 45... :smile: 

Strungout>> If you shoot same slant pattern pins with eye to left an inch and then also from behind string and then maybe with eye an inch right then that pretty much weeds out the whole thing of worrying about making them new angles.<<

<chuckle> I like that, a reverse paradox idea...<g>.


Strungout>> (Think I refered to them as going 3D).. The pins would go from slant to straight to slant other way <<

Or straight up and down????  

Dwayne


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## DwayneR

Hello Stodr

sto>>It would not be a sunlight problem unless you had a clarifier peep in. Do you have a level on your sight. If you do make sure it is perpendicular to the ground (standing on flat ground) It does not have to be perpendiculur to your bow or string, but it is easier to set up that way if it is. Some people have a natural cant when they aim the bow. Have somebody stand behind you to see if you are canting the bow. If you are, the pins will be angled.<<

Thanks for your input... No my bow is straight up and down... that is also what someone tried to tell me, and they watched me shoot one day without me knowing it, and said I was perfect...

Dwayne


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## stodr

DwayneR said:


> Hello Stodr
> 
> sto>>It would not be a sunlight problem unless you had a clarifier peep in. Do you have a level on your sight. If you do make sure it is perpendicular to the ground (standing on flat ground) It does not have to be perpendiculur to your bow or string, but it is easier to set up that way if it is. Some people have a natural cant when they aim the bow. Have somebody stand behind you to see if you are canting the bow. If you are, the pins will be angled.<<
> 
> Thanks for your input... No my bow is straight up and down... that is also what someone tried to tell me, and they watched me shoot one day without me knowing it, and said I was perfect...
> 
> Dwayne


Okay your bow is straight up and down is your sight mounted squarely with your bow. Many sights have an adjustment and it might not be set correct for your bow. If that is all correct then I would guess it has something to do with your center shot.


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## arkhotrock

*thanks bow-zo*

i have been shooting for about 10 yrs total. when i started and wanting to get better as fast as i could. i found every book and video i could on tuning and shooting. worked into a pretty good shot in my area of the country i had thought i have covered all the bases of tuning then i found the walk back and it made a real differance. my friend and i went to the asa world and i was as feeling as good as i ever had about a shoot. And the only reason i didn't win me a world championship was my string making failed and i fought bus cable all weekend. i shoot semi-pro finished 16th and the main thing is my arrows went where the pin was at the moment of release. usually coming back on that long ride i am down when not winning but i knew that i had made serious improvements and can't wait for next year.


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## SEOBowhntr

RobVos said:


> Dwayne,
> 
> Now I see why before you stated that your pins are angled -- this has to be the case when your line of sight is not coplaner with the arrow path. You are thus shifting your line of sight at each pin setting to find the intersection with the arrow path. So the walk back as described here using only one pin setting will not work for you because your "rear sight" is off to the side.
> 
> I have used a No-peep in the past for hunting, and I always set it up with my line of sight as close to the string as possible. Since I did not use a sight where pins could be offset, I zeroed mine for the mid range hunting distances. My line of sight plane was only slightly off, thus I was not significantly off at any distance out to 45-50 yards or so and well within hunting accuracy. This is the case with 99% of those who use the No-peep type devices.


Dwayne,
Actually, you can Walk-back tune a no peep, you just do it keeping the initial pin as your reference and move back. Set a pin at 15-20yds, shot the top of your target, then keep aiming at the same point and walk it back. When you do this, it will show you which way your rest needs moved if it is out of center. After each rest adjustment, you need to resite that pin, and walk back again. Within and hour, you should have the rest centered and then you will maximize your *Kinetic Energy*, insuring optimal penetration and momentum.

And yes, you will have a slant to your pins if you are using "No Peep" because your line of site is not parallel with the arrows path. The vectors do come into play a bit here. However, if you have slanted pins and are shooting a peep, your rest is out of center. Likewise, if you are shooting a "no-peep" and your pins are straight up and down, you will also be out of center.

Just a couple more thoughts. 

*Strungout, * 
*Every thing in this thread is wrong, and if you have any doubts, just go read the post on "Setting up a site" on JHO, those guys will tell you.  * LMAO

For new shooters, walk-back tuning can cure many problems, but you need to make sure you are spined correctly to ensure optimal arrow flight!!!!


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## strungout

*******,

haha, yes..that was funny...but make sure you be technically accurate or they may come in here and rip on you, hehe ..


> Strungout,
> Every thing in this thread is wrong, and if you have any doubts, just go read the post on "Setting up a site" on JHO, those guys will tell you. LMAO


.. It was called "Setting up sight".. 

I on other hand ( I jest), am as accurate as a bear terden on a log.. My disclaimer relieves me of hives, diareha (sp?), the ralphs, lack of superhuman powers or whathave ya ...thank God for disclaimers and human error.. :slice: 

Hey but bro, aren't you supposed to be huntin elk about now??  
..

..and don't ya know Dwayne knows almost everything on this thread? (no jesting,he's brainy).. I think he even knows only the ones that think arrows fly straight are wrong..  


..all of these questions and more answered on the next exciting episode of "Soap"... :cocktail:


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## RobVos

SEOBowhntr said:


> Dwayne,
> Actually, you can Walk-back tune a no peep, you just do it keeping the initial pin as your reference and move back. Set a pin at 15-20yds, shot the top of your target, then keep aiming at the same point and walk it back. When you do this, it will show you which way your rest needs moved if it is out of center. After each rest adjustment, you need to resite that pin, and walk back again. Within and hour, you should have the rest centered and then you will maximize your *Kinetic Energy*, insuring optimal penetration and momentum.
> 
> And yes, you will have a slant to your pins if you are using "No Peep" because your line of site is not parallel with the arrows path. The vectors do come into play a bit here. However, if you have slanted pins and are shooting a peep, your rest is out of center. Likewise, if you are shooting a "no-peep" and your pins are straight up and down, you will also be out of center.


What you just stated is impossible. If you have a No-peep and your pins are going to end up slanted (as you stated), that is proof that as you walk back the arrow is deviating from your sight path. Therefore, there is no way that when you stand at 50 yards that the arrow can hit dead low while using the 20 yard pin -- if it did, the 50 yard pin would be directly below it, not at a different windage (i.e. slanted). Remember the pin offsets are not due to canting with a no-peep, but due to the ofset in sight plane from arrow path.

You are contradicting yourself.


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## strungout

Until someone can prove just how much slant is required due to an offset eye (an optical windage only cant, not a true bow cant around a nocked arrow), I will not place much into how much of a slant it could end up being. Dwaynes case was just recently put up in the air as possable proof of a need to cant the pins with a No-Peep due to his admision that he had to slant with a regular peep also. And that is fine, he hasn't tried the Walkback and but he will..no harm done at all...
But in theory, no you can't tune a No-Peep with this method...Yes, your only using ONE PIN and the slant will be known later when done and can be fixed but the offsetting optical angle will put your walkback bullseyes ever increasingly to the side with that one pin as you go back...I wouldn't want to guess how much it be though and I prefure not to treat it as putting the arrow off to side.. call a duck a duck if it waddles and qwacks as someone always says (Javi?) ..... I can hardly see the effect by exagerating it using a pen out in front of my face with a couple reference points though. Try this... take a pen and consider the tip being the 20 yard sight pin and the other end the rest (don't think arrow). SLant it away from you sort of like a launching arrow and compare it to two points in front of you. I used a straight up/down window frame slider about 10 yards and a 40 yard neighbors garage door frame. Just tickle it sideways around its center while keeping the forward slant and walla we got the optical alignment increasing to the side..And realize that is just considering one sight pin. The effect would be called a parallax to the optical windage. Takes everything 3D so to speak.
Is kind of a short thought here as I am heading out to try and stick a deer but I thinks the two adjusts I talked about last for Dwayne would only fix the pins laying beneith the 20 yarder and set him up for uphill/downhill shooting. His pins would be straight though ..The original implied idea of being able to just translate the above parallax out to the target as being a fixed amount of an inch or such is just wrong but again, I have no idea how much it would change other than my pen example.. The main thing that this inside topic of the No-Peep does, for me at least, is confirm that arrows don't fly straight and the whole crossing intersecting arrow stuff is plain wrong. Walkback shows us (peep shooters)the tune via other reasons.. They are somewheres on page 6 or 7.... just think 2D or 3D and in terms of co-planer as someone said.. ..
Almost sorry about all the No-peep talk in here about now, it sort of takes away from original reasons for this thread and probably confuses people..Is getting old and but I am a sucker for it,lol

Personally, I am still waiting for someone or anyone to explain why they think arrows (if fletched) fly in a straight path...lmaof.. cause all arrows are moving off of an invisable original intended power direction/ intended rotation destination...Goal is to put the arrows as close to it as possable via centershot adjust and spine adjust. Centershot off and everything rotates away from drag. If spine is off you will end up picking the wrong arrow (the fletched arrow) to walkback adjust to. Why? cause it moves from the intended rotational path fast/more at our close ranges.. If anyone is experiencing the state of being in walkback tune but bares are way off, it is cause of spine is wrong. Bares move a little, fletched move alot, broadhead being closer to the fletched in the amount. So we always pick getting the broadhead and fletched to fly straight up and down... Human nature I suppose. But it is the whacked out flying bare shaft that is trully reflecting the nature of your rests position.
Bare shaft is the rock... stick to it for perfect tuning, but stick with Walkback for hunting until you get there....
hope that idea helps..


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## RobVos

Prove it to yourself -- with a 1/8" peep, instead of centering things up, align your pin to one side or the other of your peep and shoot some shots and see how far off your are with that slight offset eye (which will be less than 1/16"). :wink:


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## strungout

oh I'm sorry, you must have mistook what I said... thought what I was talking about was concerning resultant tuning and or slanted pins.... not sight-in results from moving yer eye on a shot or three... :wink:


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## Bow-zo

*Wow!*

WOW! 288 post and nearly 11,000 looks. 
Thanks for all the input guys! I learned a few things myself.
I know this is and can be a very useful tuning method for those that want to try it. 
Hope those of you that did try it got some good results.
It is the fastest way for a new archer to get his bow shooting where he points it.
I am leaving on a 10 day elk hunt in Colo. on 9/1! I'll post some pics if we score.

C-ya..Dave!


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## mo4040

Bow-Zo...

As a noob to archery, thanks for illustrating this technique for bow tuning. First thing tomorrow, I am heading outside to give this a go. Based upon what I have read (so far), this seems to be a method that should work with the least amount of hassle. Prior to reading this thread tonight, I was in the process of gathering materials to set-up a paper tuning apparatus in my garage. I was fully prepared to burn my two days off in the garage paper tuning. Now, it's a (hopefully) quick trip outside w/ some cardboard & weighted string resulting in two relaxing days of flinging accurate arrows down-range... 

I'll submit a report tomorrow.

PS...good luck on your hunt!


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## Cool Arrow

This works, I tried it this morming. I shot paper at 8 yards then did the "walk back" method. I had to repeat the walk back 4 times but I think I was worried about over adjusting at first,I plan to repeat this again in a day or so with fresh arms. My groups with my BH, well flight has improved from 11 inches groups (completely unacceptable ) down to 4 inches at 35 yards. talk about felling better, I have only a slight idea about paper tuning, I do not discount it as a tuning method but for me it is difficult to look at and see an easy solution, this "walk back" was almost idiot proof for me with all these post , I seen results that were easier for me to interpret, my bow was definately out of tune and I believe I was shooting "bullet holes" even with a fletch clearance problem. arrows also seem to be going way deep in the target now, I mainly posted this reply to thank Bow-zo and so others like me might see it and give it try like I did. Thank you Bow-zo and the others who posted in this thread.


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## EPLC

zenarch said:


> I still say nonsense. If the arrow you shot at 20 yds was allowed to pass through the spot and continue downrange to a target at 60 yds, placed on the same line as the 20 yd target, it would hit center of the spot at 60 as well. If it went from point A (the bow), to point B (the 20 yd spot) how can it change direction and miss point C (the 60 yd target). If you mis-adjust your centershot puposely and use your windage adjustment to bring you back into the center of the spot again, you should also hit the 60 yd spot downrange.
> I say if your sight level is correct the centershot adjustment is not critical. Eyeball it in to where you like it and leave it.
> Nice shooting though. Why aren't you out there making some money if you can group like that at 60 yds repeatedly?
> Joe B.


I don't think so... Can we agree that arrow rest movement in or out changes arrow left and right impact? If so, then assume the sight has been adjusted to hit at 20 yards with either the left or right example. Even if the arrow itself flies straight in the example, the farther you move back the farther from center the arrow would impact the target. Even if the arrow shot at 20 were to proceed to 60 the impact would be well off center.


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## strungout

ahhh,, a resurrection.. This been dead so long that I forgot my password.. 

Part of that drawing EPLC looks familiar, part of it don't. That is all..:secret:


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## ProtecMan

I agree with EPLC (excellent illustration too!) If your arrowrest is off a couple of mm's, it will continue in that direction. The walk back method is an excellent method of checking your arrowrest. The French Tuning method is similar to the walk back method, but might work better for people with movable sights. Better yet, if you have a movable sight, try both methods.


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## drtnshtr

is it possible to do the walkback method without actually shooting from the longer distance....what i mean is can you sight in at 20 and then just move your sight down but still shoot from 20?


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## strungout

Troy,

If you got only one pin and sighting in or tuning from scratch then set pin at your 20 yards and do walkback test/adjust of rest byhanging plumboff center arrow till you get straight pattern( "l" ). Then move said pin to some point on your bar that will allow you to shoot all ranges with least errors in distance judging... Or if your already pretty closeand shooting well you can just stick up the plumb bob and sight in for the very middle of your target right on the string or tape and take adjustment shots in small decreases/increases that will still let you hit your target safely.Adjust restso you get no "\" or "/" pattern. Make sure you resight inthe pin often ormovethe plumb setup to match the pin as the middle shot/pinwillbe moving from rest adjustments almost just as much as the nearer and farther shots.
I plumb bob broadheads out to 80 yards and call it a day but I am perfectionist at this. 50 yards with target points is fine for most.
If you only WB at 20 you will not have full picture. Review thread paying special attention only to me starting on page 6....lmao, just kidding guys..

:tongue:


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## Ozarker

*Questions*

Is 40 yards enough distance? I'm not real confident in my shooting past 40 or 45?

Can I just shoot at 20 and then skip back to 40?

Why must you use the same pin? Can't you shoot at 20 w/ 20 yd. pin and then shoot at 40 w/ 40 yd. pin and make adjustments if the 40 yd. group is left or right?

Thanks


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## strungout

> Is 40 yards enough distance? I'm not real confident in my shooting past 40 or 45?
> 
> Can I just shoot at 20 and then skip back to 40?
> 
> Why must you use the same pin? Can't you shoot at 20 w/ 20 yd. pin and then shoot at 40 w/ 40 yd. pin and make adjustments if the 40 yd. group is left or right?


 First off, you will not get an accurate result with only two distances as a determination of whether or not your in need of some tuning. Some setups will start to show the left/right pattern at some distances and then correct back at other longer distances.. (i.e.- "C" pattern). So no you can not skip so much in distance.

40 yards is not really enough distance. System may be just starting to show at this distance..

Using different pins can induce error by way of sightbar not being perfect verticle and adjustments will need to be made in reverse direction..

Maybe somebody else has other things to add. I am swamped hereon xmas eve and need to shop still,lol..


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## Ozarker

Thanks!


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## Bow-zo

*Walk Up!*

Hi drtnshtr, How are ya?
What you can do if you do not have room to "walk back" is "walk up".
Some prefer this method because it is easier to hold on a small dot up close.
You can follow the steps Gene outlines on his web site in the preceeding pages.
I do not think the walk up is as accurate as the walk back but if you are limited on space it will get you pretty close. If you use very small dots and a thin line it will get you very close.





Ozarker..how are ya?
I do most of my tuning from 20 to 40. I shoot several groups at 20 untill I am very satisfied with the centering. I then shoot just two or three arrows from 30 and again from 40 to see if centershot adjustment if needed.
I shoot and adjust from 20 and 40 untill I am again very satisfied with the centering of my groups.
Once satisfied I move out to 60 and 80. More often than not very,very little if any adjustment is needed at long range.

You need to use the same pin at all distances so you can see the arrow drop on the plum line. It is the arrows vertical line as it falls that will tell you if it is leaving the bow in a straight line to the target.

Dave!


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## francis

bow zo, when you say use the same pin, are you adjusting the pin up and down for different distances or are you shooting all your distances with the pin in the "30" meter position for example?

if you keep it in one position is that to isolate any error that might be present in your sight bar not being plumb?


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## strungout

francis said:


> bow zo, when you say use the same pin, are you adjusting the pin up and down for different distances or are you shooting all your distances with the pin in the "30" meter position for example?
> 
> if you keep it in one position is that to isolate any error that might be present in your sight bar not being plumb?


I hopes he is using one pin in one position aimed at one bullseye at all distances... I must of missed where he left himself open to that question Francis... 
?


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## Bow-zo

*???????????????*

I thought we covered all that on the first few pages???

SAME PIN..SET FOR 20 YARDS! "ALL DISTANCES" 
DO NOT MOVE ANYTHING BUT YOUR FEET AS YOU WALKBACK AND SHOOT FROM THE NEXT DISTANCE!

Even if your sight bar is all plumbed and square or your pins in a straight line and square to the bow you still need to use "same pin..all distances"

YOU NEED TO SEE WHERE THE ARROWS IMPACT ON THE PLUMB LINE. THIS IS HOW YOU KNOW YOUR ARROWS ARE LEAVING THE REST IN A STRAIGHT LINE TO THE TARGET. 
THE ARROWS NEED TO FALL IN A STRAIGHT VERTICAL LINE DOWN THE STRING AND TOWARD THE GROUND FROM THE CENTER OF THE X SHOT AT 20 YARDS.

The best way to see if your arrows are falling in a straight vertical line is to shoot the "same pin all distances"

The walkback method has nothing to do with setting sight pins, adjusting 3rd axis, 4th axis, squaring sight bar, setting your bubble, or any other sight adjustment. 
It is all about getting the rest perfectly in line with the "shooting center" of the bow. (shooting center is defined in preceeding pages)

Dave!


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## sndmn11

*ttt*

heres a question: the outdoor range i go to is a state park and there has only been a few times when i was the only one shooting there. i dont think the other people would appreciate me standing 20 yards from the 60 yard bale. so can i just put a spot on the top of the 60 yard bale, hang a weighted string from the center of it and shoot 60 yards with my 20 yard pin? then make the necessary adjustments to my rest, walk over to the 20 yard bale adjust my sight to have my 20 yard pin dead on at 20 yards and then walk over to the 60 yard bale again and use my 20 yard pin? it seems the same to me except that i would never actually be shooting the 60 yard bale from 20 yards away, just kind of assuming i did i guess? does that make sense? i will be happy to clarify if there is any confusion with my poor description


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## Bow-zo

*Good question?*

Hi sndmn11, how are ya?
You post a very good question.
Your idea would give you some indication of centershot however you might not get perfect results if the spot is elevated very much.
The only problem I see with this method is that you are changing the height of the spot which will require you to raise your bow arm to shoot the elevated 60 yd. spot. This might introduce some other factors into the results.(all that axis talk you read earlier) I think keeping the spot at shoulder height keeps other factors out.
If you are just starting the walkback tuning and not fine tuning at long distance. You can get good results shooting from 20 then 30 yards.
On a new setup I start at 30 and work my way back making very fine adjustments at each 10yd. increment.
Your idea is worth a try. Let us know the results if you try it!

Thanks..dave!


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## strungout

Sndmn11,

Yes, this back and forth will work to show some level of result but I would not advise unless your already knowingly close to being in fine tune...

Sorry to stand in contrast here a tad to Bow-zo's - "If you are just starting the walkback tuning and not fine tuning at long distance." ..But I think a beginning WB test with this method would be asking for a result that will likely loose or break arrows or perhaps even create a dangerous situation by jumping too much in distance...

If your going to do this anyway sandman, please consider setting up your dot and plumb bob as you described but shoot a few arrows off your middle pins from the 60 yard mark(maybe the 40 & 30 pins) prior to doing the 20 pin just to make sure your not going to miss the target with the 20 pin.This assumes your already sighted in out to 60 of course...This method you speak of will not show any schisms however in the middle range differing from the common slants (i.e. "/", "\") but will suffice many folks for casual target shooting.
Another way to do this method (elimination of yardages) that at first seems safer is by doing the whole process off your 60 yard sighted-in pin... Instead of watching for misaligned pattern in a falling arrow you look for a misaligned pattern in a rising arrow by shooting the 20 yard target with the 60 pin aimed at the bottom of plumb bob..this will eliminate worry about hitting target so much. But there is a couple flaws in this shooting for rising arrows method that removes it from my repertoire..Firstly, if you were to try this I speak of you will have to remember that your rest adjustments will be in reverse shooting the 20 yard target and you must then re-sight in before testing the 60 distance. And so in that we come to the second more important reason against trying this..You must re-sight in for the 60 yard shot somehow with safety in mind anyway..And the only way to do that is by working up to it with some mid-distance shooting..Hence we now come a full ugly circle back to the recognition of the fact that we must re-sight in throughout any of the WB methods dreamed up...Please think incremental..

I suggest going to range when it is not so busy and do regular WB. If your a hunter, I further suggest setting up a range out in the forest or such to do the WB with broadheads. Never assume target tip WB tuning will leave you with a sufficient broadhead tune...Hope this helps :thumbs_up


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## DwayneR

Hello BowZo,

This may have been covered, but I wanted to make sure.

We have talked about "Windage" with the walkback... How about Verticle tuning? A person (that I know of) shouldn't hap-hazardly "Eyeball". And I don't think "aligning" to a perfect 90 degree would be the best answer...

Dwayne


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## DeepFried

I took the liberty of digging up this thread for all the dis-believers of Walk Back Tuning...


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## SonnyThomas

For sure Zenarch doesn't believe walk back tuning works. How odd when it has proven to work for so many years and for so many people. Perhaps he should join the other Thread in General Discussion. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1565076&pagenumber= 

I use Walk Back Tuning when setting up bows at the archery shop I work at. It's fairly easy and I do it from around 5 yards and 30 yards. I have had no complaints from bow hunters or local 3D shooters. Walk Back Tuning is more or less a variation of French tuning. If by those who disclaim Walk Back Tuning then French Tuning is no good either. French tuning being the finer tuning, it is done from 3 yards and as far back as your bow will shoot and stay on the target stop. The longer distance is shot with the same pin sighted in for 3 yards. 

However, I do believe the Walk Back procedure could be better written/described - repeats of the procedure noted for one and establishing/explanation of a reference. People do get confused. And then I think people miss the point of using the same pin throughout the procedure. Okay, all else being correct/sight squared and whatever and not worrying about height of impact of the arrow; If you sight in dead nutz at 20 yards and then use the same pin to shoot out to 50 or 60 yards and the arrow is right or left of the vertical string by some 5 or 6 inches, what is off, the sight or the horizontal setting of the arrow rest?

Walk Back Tuning is a established Procedure and agreed to by AT and set forth in General Archery Information. It was put there by one of the greats, Oxford. Oxford even has a link to that of who many acknowledge as a great, nuts&bolts. Perhaps the disclaimers of Walk Back Tuning should come right out and call these two people outright liars....


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## Ches

Sonny
Who is Oxford? Sometimes I think I must be living under a rock.


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## SonnyThomas

Ches said:


> Sonny
> Who is Oxford? Sometimes I think I must be living under a rock.


You might be.  Ever been to General Archery Information? Well, see who started so many Posts. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=121


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## dwagoner

yeah ive seen the other in general about how its wrong. what is wrong is for one to say to another that its wrong, theres more than one way to skin a cat and still get er skinned. Ive read thru both a bit and can see bits and pieces from both sides. although i do use WB myself, dont use bareshaft tuning, but DO get FPs and BHs (montecs) to shoot dead nuts out to 80 yards which is the longest i practice with BHs for hunting. So i guess its a debate that will not end, im shocked N&B didnt post anything on the "walkbacks wrong" thread in GEN ARCH section.

WORD UP Sonny hows it going??


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## SonnyThomas

Dennis, actually, I think nuts&bolts played it smart.

Still pluggin' along.


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## SonnyThomas

Mmmmmm? Where'd all them nonbelievers go?


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