# Question for OAA Reps on the A.G.M.



## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

I was not able to be at this meeting and as a club we have tried to do our best to support this organization. I have spoken with a few of the good people that volunteer their time and my question in no way reflects on the good work they do for us.

In reading the flyer sent to me for the meeting I saw on the front of the page that the "Ontario Centre for Classical Sport welcomes you to bring your equipment - no crossbows- and use their facility after the meeting."

I would remind the leadership that we just lost a vote in the house of commons to scrap the gun registry. Without a doubt if not for the CSSA crossbows would have had to be registered in Canada today. And that fight is not over and if the tide turns against us you my well have to register a trad, compound or crossbow in the not to distant future. 

Classical Sport, not sure how much more clasical a crossbow is than a compound but I am sure we are talking a least 500 years. Was it speed that they are excluded for as I would bet they would let a Mathews Monster in the door.

My personal opinion here is we should not be supporting any facility that uses the same lame reasons we hear for excluding crossbows and the more we allow these places to do this the more we inch closer to the draconian laws that will make the sport of archery out of the reach of every Canadian.

It seems that the GTA has the ability to control the minds of the elected MPP's to the degree that we lost the spring bear hunt without the ability to be listened to by the rest of the province. It is the building of this type of mentality in the GTA that shows in the stupid rules of "NO CROSSBOWS ALLOWED". Shame on those in archery that support this type of reasonless rules.

So, my question is will the OAA for next years AGM hold it in a venue that supports all.........ALL of the dissiplines of archery? And if not can you give me a good reason why you support the banning of crossbows in certain venues that have archery?

Bob


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## SuphanXP (Jan 1, 2010)

AMEN brother BOB!! Crossbows are as much an archery tool as an arrow or a string!! To exclude these from the spectrum is to be anti archery in one form or another.


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## crkwalker (Oct 29, 2007)

+1
We ALL must stick together , theres way too much dissension !


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Please note that crossbows _*were*_ welcome - what you saw on the flyer (I don't have one handy) was not sent by the hosts of the meeting. Here's what one of the owners of the place posted here on AT a while ago:



> Just wanted to pull the thread back to the AGM
> The Ontario Centre for Classical Sport (OCCS) would like to invite those of you attending the AGM to bring along your equipment if you are interested in some range time after the meeting. We will be opening up the range for a couple of hours after the meeting for some open shooting. Compound, re-curve, traditional bows.. all welcome, _*cross bows welcome but you must bring your own block target*_. No broad heads of course. See you in October.


Unfortunately their target butts they have are not designed to high-speed short arrows, and they were concerned that you might bury an 18-20" arrow right into their target, so that's why they asked you to bring your own block or bag.

The owners bid to host the AGM this year at _*LAST YEAR's*_ AGM when this new facility _*hadn't even been built yet*_. Talk about dedication to the sport! Not only did they offer the meeting facility free of charge and did a wonderful job as hosts, but allowed us to shoot for several hours afterwards.

So, do NOT blame the OCCS for this.

The note on the flyer was just a misunderstanding of some sort. The OAA is absolutely NOT anti-crossbow. In fact, it is the most pro-crossbow of any provincial association. 

Next year's AGM will be at The Bow Shop. Very crossbow-friendly.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Thank You Stash for clearing that up. 



> The note on the flyer was just a misunderstanding of some sort. The OAA is absolutely NOT anti-crossbow. In fact, it is the most pro-crossbow of any provincial association.


See this is where I find it hard that the "no crossbow" would even make it to the flyer. Misunderstanding or not it should be beyond thinking that we would allow ourselves as part of the sport shooting society to print that. It would be the same as a sportman club posting a No-Hunting sign on huntable property.........believe me when I say we had a club do it down here and were taken to task. 



> Just wanted to pull the thread back to the AGM
> The Ontario Centre for Classical Sport (OCCS) would like to invite those of you attending the AGM to bring along your equipment if you are interested in some range time after the meeting. We will be opening up the range for a couple of hours after the meeting for some open shooting. Compound, re-curve, traditional bows.. all welcome, cross bows welcome but you must bring your own block target. No broad heads of course. See you in October.


My appoligy to the OCCS as the print on the flyer was very clear. And I would suggest the possibility that targets be purchased to resolve the issue of bring your own. We have dissabled archers that have enough of a job to get themselves and their shooting equipment to a facility let alone to have to bring their own target. It just makes sense to look at all needs and not leave the door open to being excluded for any reason.

My concern here is for the loss of rights for us all as sport shooting is taking it on the chin from laws that will affect the whole if we do not stand guard for those rights. If we allow a government to get crossbows (registry) we have just given them all of archery in time.

It is good to hear the OAA is pro-crossbow but that alone is not enough we must be pro-sport shooting which includes all aspects of the sport, gun (Shotgun, Rifle, Handgun) and archery (Compound, Traditional and Crossbow) or we will see our rights as archers not survive.

Bob


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

When a club becomes an OAA member, it does not give the OAA (or anyone else) the right to dictate to the club what facilities they must have or what shooting disciplines they must support.

A 3D club should not be required to set up a 90M FITA range just because the OAA suppports Olympic style target archery. A field archery club should not be required to set up a 3D range. The guys who run the OCCS are primarily interested in Fencing, but also like Olympic style archery, and that's what they've set up their business to concentrate on. They don't have anything against compounds or crossbows, it's just not their area of interest.

And besides, even if the owners of the OCCS had requested no crossbows, it still wouldn't have been anyone's business. This was just a meeting, not an OAA sanctioned competition, and they were simply being generous in inviting people to stay and shoot afterwards. The shooting had nothing to do with the meeting and they would have been well within their rights to invite only left-handers with longbows to stay and shoot. We've had meetings before at the Archers of Caledon club, where they do not permit crossbows indoors, and I think possibly the same at York County Bowmen (although I'm not sure about their indoor crossbow rule), and it's never been an issue.

You're reading way too much into this "no crossbows" note in the flyer, referring to MPPs, "loss of rights", "draconian laws" and "our rights as archers" . There's no conspiracy here.

I asked at the AGM if the OAA could set up a password-protected members-only discussion forum on its website, and Adam has promised to look into it. I hope when that's set up we can move such discussions off AT and onto there.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2010)

I was there and can guaruntee that their butts wouldn't stop the slowest Excal for very long, and with the butts being deep the likely hood of losing bolts in the target would be high. Like Stan said no conspiracy there


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

> When a club becomes an OAA member, it does not give the OAA (or anyone else) the right to dictate to the club what facilities they must have or what shooting disciplines they must support.
> 
> A 3D club should not be required to set up a 90M FITA range just because the OAA suppports Olympic style target archery. A field archery club should not be required to set up a 3D range. The guys who run the OCCS are primarily interested in Fencing, but also like Olympic style archery, and that's what they've set up their business to concentrate on. They don't have anything against compounds or crossbows, it's just not their area of interest.
> 
> ...


Who said anything about a conspiracy! I wish you would have posted this first so I knew where your true stance was.

I never said force anyone to do anything, I made a point it may be good to look at doing it and gave reasons why it would be good. Please do not put words in my post that are missleading.

I disagree with almost every part of your statement above and this is an open forum not behind closed doors like you want on the OAA site. Too many backroom deals that way, just like hanging the crossbow guys out as a peace offering.

It's sticking your head in the sand like this that got us in to a billion dollar debt on the registry and not a single life saved.

Bob


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that point. You asked "...can you give me a good reason why you support the banning of crossbows in certain venues that have archery?" and my answer is, I support it because each club has the right to do as they choose. We have traditional only clubs - should the OAA force them (by "not supporting" them) unless they permit compounds? We have a couple of Olympic style only clubs. Should we force them to allow crossbows? Should we kick them out of the OAA if they don't comply? I think not.


The OAA discussion forum would be for the purposes of discussing OAA matters among OAA members. Not to hide anything behind closed doors, but to allow access to every OAA member. There are very few OAA members here on AT and AT is certainly not the best way to get ideas across to the entire OAA membership. There is no intent on anyone's part to hide things - on the contrary, the idea is to make things more open to the whole membership by providing an open discussion forum accessible to everyone with a vested interest in OAA matters.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Stash, why do you keep trying to pin your Ideas on me;



> I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that point. You asked "...can you give me a good reason why you support the banning of crossbows in certain venues that have archery?" and my answer is, I support it because each club has the right to do as they choose. We have traditional only clubs - should the OAA force them (by "not supporting" them) unless they permit compounds? We have a couple of Olympic style only clubs. Should we force them to allow crossbows? Should we kick them out of the OAA if they don't comply? I think not.


I have no issue with a traditional club saying our club only shoots traditional, Why. Because you are in this case 100% right. Where I do think the issue lies is when you open the doors to a few because Your Club has a policy of discrimination against one part of the whole. That is too say, We will allow Compounds, Olympic and traditional but I'm sorry you crossbow people have to find other venues but we welcome everything else and just to keep it that way we will use an excuse to make it okay. Like I'm sorry those Mathews monster at 355 fps have kick the snot out of our poor targets so bad that your crossbow will pass through and we have an issue with that.

So let me repeat to you Stash, Olympic Club shooting only Olympic............no issue.
Traditional Club only Traditional........no issue. Compound shooters for only compound shooters..............no issue. Open your doors to any combination of the above and leave one out..........issue. I think they call it discrimination. Should we be kicken them out............nope. But we should not be sitting on any fences or turning a blind eye to it. Education is where we fix the problem.....right. There is not a valid reason that you can give me that would take crossbows out of any building that any other form of archery equipment is shot.

Can we force clubs to fall in line, nope. But as a over seeing Organization and Leadership we should not allow it to be brushed under the rug either and that we do not support discrimination on any level.



> There are very few OAA members here on AT and AT is certainly not the best way to get ideas across to the entire OAA membership.


I beg to differ, in the broader context of things I think this is as good a place as any to debate this issue as I see most of the Leadership is here. I support AT as a place to get the important issue in our Archery world for all to see.

Just so we are on even ground here I am a nobody with a voice down Essex County way whose club supports the OAA with funds. So where do you sit in this?

Bob


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OK, here's where we disagree, as I see it. You said "Open your doors to any combination of the above and leave one out..........issue. I think they call it discrimination." I don't see discrimination when the matter being discriminated against is a matter of choice. Race, religion, gender and all that - 100% with you. But what bow you shoot, and how the the private owners or members of a private club feel and act on it? It's their business, not my own. They're not banning you - they're simply banning a certain type of machine. The OAA will not allow a club to host an OAA championship event unless all divisions are permitted to participate, but it cannot dictate to a club that it must allow all divisions to be permitted at the club's own functions. 

Secondly, the OAA has some 900+ members, and other than Adam, I don't think any of the other "leadership" types post here, so I do feel that an OAA member's forum is a good idea. No reason you can't discuss whatever you want here, but it would be nice to have an OAA forum where the membership can discuss local issues without being interrupted with opinions from Alabama or New Zealand or someone trying to sell you an I-phone.

Thirdly, nobody is a "nobody". Your voice as an OAA member is as important as mine or anyone else's. If you want to know my history, well, I've been involved with the OAA as a member for over 35 years, been on the Board of Directors for about 20 of those years in one capacity or another, but not currently or recently. I try to contribute constructively when I have something to say, and I support the association by attending the AGM and doing my bit when I have the time and capability. And although I don't shoot one, I am pro-crossbow. In fact, not too long ago year I personally took it upon myself to get the Board of Directors to reverse its decision not to increase the maximum arrow speed for crossbows at 3Ds from 300 to 350, and spent a lot of time and effort to convince them that it was the right thing to do.

And finally, "There is not a valid reason that you can give me that would take crossbows out of any building that any other form of archery equipment is shot." How about a club not having the money to purchase specific target butts for crossbows? How about a club not having the room to have horizontal shooters on the line? How about a club that can't get permission to use the property from the owner or insurer if they allow crossbows (something that might be out of their control?). And ultimately, how about if they just plain don't like crossbows? It's their club, after all.

We both seem to be trying to pin our ideas on each other, don't we? 

I can tell you're passionate about your chosen form of archery, and I respect that. You're also passionate about your hunting and shooting rights, and I respect that as well. But I'm passionate about people's rights to do as they please, within the bounds of society's laws, and that includes their right to choose what kinds of equipment they permit on their property.

I've made my point and so have you, but I'll let you have the last word if you want it.

Thanks for the discussion.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

> The OAA will not allow a club to host an OAA championship event unless all divisions are permitted to participate, but it cannot dictate to a club that it must allow all divisions to be permitted at the club's own functions.


So here we see the intent of what I have been saying, do not reward for those who would discriminate against a class or type of equipment.....correct. I agree with this so we are on the same page here. So going forward I have a question........has there ever been a club that stayed the no crossbow rule just to get a host position for a OAA sponsored event?



> No reason you can't discuss whatever you want here, but it would be nice to have an OAA forum where the membership can discuss local issues without being interrupted with opinions from Alabama or New Zealand or someone trying to sell you an I-phone.


No, I think this is a bigger issue than just local.........crossbows have the same effect across north america. There are still States and provinces that do not allow them and treat them like they are nuke waste. Have not seen for the most part supporters Canadian, you and me on this one. And to go a step further I believe most good people on AT as a whole would respect this debate and stay out of the thread. When you think about it it is education that may be usable to help promote the truth about crossbows........not the bad boy of archery that many who want to not have them in the archery family.



> Thirdly, nobody is a "nobody". Your voice as an OAA member is as important as mine or anyone else's. If you want to know my history, well, I've been involved with the OAA as a member for over 35 years, been on the Board of Directors for about 20 of those years in one capacity or another, but not currently or recently. I try to contribute constructively when I have something to say, and I support the association by attending the AGM and doing my bit when I have the time and capability. And although I don't shoot one, I am pro-crossbow. In fact, not too long ago year I personally took it upon myself to get the Board of Directors to reverse its decision not to increase the maximum arrow speed for crossbows at 3Ds from 300 to 350, and spent a lot of time and effort to convince them that it was the right thing to do.


I would like to say thank you for your dedication to the sport, no joke I mean it. Volunteer work is hard work and it sounds like you have done more than your fair share. I also support this association by putting on shoots and volunteering my time for free even more now. But to be honest I do not see the OAA doing much for us down this way. I have asked to get education programs down here for training and trainers training. IBEP training and you know who runs that but I gave up making the phone calls because outside of the GTA it seems we are just a cash cow. So now I have to go to the states to get the training systems I need for our people. To be honest I would like to see us go back to the 280 rule because my club targets could take the small number of crossbows we get per shoot, but now the 325+ vertical bows are killing my targets faster then crossbows ever did so even though I support you on your max. speed for crossbows I am not feeling the help.



> How about a club not having the money to purchase specific target butts for crossbows? How about a club not having the room to have horizontal shooters on the line? How about a club that can't get permission to use the property from the owner or insurer if they allow crossbows (something that might be out of their control?). And ultimately, how about if they just plain don't like crossbows? It's their club, after all.


Money to buy Crossbow targets.........I was a dealer for ten years the costs are very close and guess what you can shoot the 325 fps verticals into the same targets, it works try it.

No line room for crossbows.......really. How about shooting two or three or more lines and make room.

Insurance Issues...........Being a OAA memberclub our group is covered for crossbows and it is an awesome selling point when you go to potential property owners to ask for use. So good in fact our shoots are held on ERCA property and they love the fact we carry insurance at the level we do. Not once was exclusion of any archery equipment talked about.

And last you are right and you put it exactly in the true light...


> And ultimately, how about if they just plain don't like crossbows? It's their club, after all.


 And that is a form of discrimination is it not, maybe not in the frame of race, religeon or the other types but hey where do you draw a line right.



> We both seem to be trying to pin our ideas on each other, don't we?


Wrong, I stand behind what my values and ethics are, your more than able to come up with your own ideas and use them as you see fit, don't you.



> I can tell you're passionate about your chosen form of archery, and I respect that. You're also passionate about your hunting and shooting rights, and I respect that as well.


Again you assume what I shoot. I shoot Compound, I shoot Crossbow, I shoot Traditional, I shoot Olympic recurve, I shoot Shotguns, I shoot Rifles and one day I may even Shoot Hand guns. In my veiw it boils down to the fact I must support them all because right now as we post those rights are under fire be it you hunt, 3D or punch paper and to keep those we can not let anymore of them fall. Do you think I join the OAA just to have my shoots in your book?...........My hope is you guys are out there fighting for my rights as a Sport Shooter PERIOD.



> But I'm passionate about people's rights to do as they please, within the bounds of society's laws,


Freedom to do the right thing strengthens all of us, but freedom to do the wrong thing is the fastest way to lose rights all of us respect and do our best to protect.



> but I'll let you have the last word if you want it.


Thank you but I do not need you to "let" me do anything, and to show my faith in your right to respond, by all means the stage is yours.

Yours in Support of all Sport Shooting;

Bob


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Bob, you know there was a very good reason that the AMA put that no hunting sign on the property 3D shoots were held. It was the AMA's job to do what the landowner demanded to keep the property. 
If I know the whole story (which I may or may not) there were a few factors that went into the landowner wanting those signs up. That land was never public and I don't know anyone who had written consent to be on it. So I don't know if it was ever huntable. Also, does it fall under the 'no firearms discharge' zone of Amherstburg?


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## Cory J~ (Jun 29, 2010)




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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

If you're looking to get in contact with the OAA, Archery Talk is not the proper channel to do so. I am the only member of the board who regularly keeps an eye on what goes on here. Of the 10 that are current board members only 2 have accounts.

Next year the AGM is at Colby (the Bow Shop). They have the capacity to stop a crossbow bolt before the nock gets buried in the butt; a lot sooner then the average arrow. This being said, the AGM is not a shooting event. It is at the clubs discretion as to whether or not they open their range to our membership. I would love to mandate that every club in Ontario must be crossbow friendly, however this is not realistic.

As Stash stated, the OAA is probably the most pro-crossbow provincial organization in Canada. We have spent a lot of time working with Archery Canada in an attempt to get them to the same level as we are at in regard to competition. We have made some progress but still have a long way to go.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

> Thank you but I do not need you to "let" me do anything, and to show my faith in your right to respond, by all means the stage is yours.


OK, I was ready to drop the subject, but if you feel like continuing the discussion, I can type until my fingers fall off.  Just so you know I'm not trying to "win" a debate, only illustrate that there are many perfectly legitimate views to any issue and I feel none of them are necessarily "right" or "wrong".


> has there ever been a club that stayed the no crossbow rule just to get a host position for a OAA sponsored event?


I am not aware of any.


> because outside of the GTA it seems we are just a cash cow


Absolutely untrue. Depending on how you define the GTA, there is only 1 club and although I don't know where some of the OAA Board members live, I do know the vast majority are from well ouside the GTA. OAA events circulate throughout the province year to year. Everything is an open, fair bidding process. The AGM does tend to be in a central location, but that is purely for travel convenience for the largest number of people.


> To be honest I would like to see us go back to the 280 rule because my club targets could take the small number of crossbows we get per shoot,


Try and find a crossbow these days that shoots under 300 fps.  I got the rule changed because I wanted to give everyone who shot a crossbow an opportunity to particlpate in OAA activities without having to purchase a different bow.


> Money to buy Crossbow targets
> No line room for crossbows.......really. How about shooting two or three or more lines and make room.


Some indoor club facilities are are simply not set up for crossbows, with fixed walls. Rebuilding butts for the odd one or two guys who shoot crossbows indoors isn't cost effective. Shooting extra lines is sometimes not possible due to time constraints or demands on volunteer's times. Besides, how much sense does it make to insist that every club that wants to host the OAA Indoor Championships make special accomodations for crossbows (if they can't already handle them in their range) when we had, in all of Ontario, for 2 different indoor championship events in 2010, a grand total of _*ONE*_crossbow shooter?


> And that is a form of discrimination is it not, maybe not in the frame of race, religeon or the other types but hey where do you draw a line right.





> Freedom to do the right thing strengthens all of us, but freedom to do the wrong thing is the fastest way to lose rights all of us respect and do our best to protect.


And that ultimately is our main difference.

Who decides what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? Isn't that the whole definition of "freedom"? We each decide for ourselves.

I think any reasonable person would agree that people should not be free to act outside the boundaries of society's laws.

My idea of "freedom" is just that - freedom (within the above constraints). That's where I draw the line. I have the freedom to discriminate against crossbow shooters, people who like mangoes, people who smell bad...If I choose, I even have the freedom to discriminate against people of other races or religions, as long as _my actions don't adversely affect their rights_.

Unfortunately, there are people whose idea of freedom seems to be "everyone is free to do whatever they want, as long as it's within the bounds of what _*we *_decide is right".



> freedom to do the wrong thing is the fastest way to lose rights all of us respect and do our best to protect.


No, DOING the wrong thing is the fastest way to lose rights. _Having the freedom_ to do the wrong thing is the essence of our society.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

> Bob, you know there was a very good reason that the AMA put that no hunting sign on the property 3D shoots were held. It was the AMA's job to do what the landowner demanded to keep the property.
> If I know the whole story (which I may or may not) there were a few factors that went into the landowner wanting those signs up. That land was never public and I don't know anyone who had written consent to be on it. So I don't know if it was ever huntable. Also, does it fall under the 'no firearms discharge' zone of Amherstburg?


Hey Rob, hope all is well with you and yours. The reason was...it was private land used for a 3D course and during the hunting season it was by landowner consent hunted on. There was a problem that arouse and that permission was taken away and the 3D club asked to post it. That would be well and good if it had originally been done as No- Trespassing, but the Club put No Hunting and No Trespassing on the signs. To me and many others as members at the time spoke on the issue and how important it was that Hunting and Fishing Clubs not post No Hunting on Huntable land even if there is no consent to use it for that purpose. Imagine if the Anti groups found clubs, Hunting Clubs Posting that. Must have made some sense as the signs came down and the new ones were.........Archery Range/No Trespassing.

Cory.........no chill pills needed it is a good debate

CaptainT, Thank You for your input.



> If you're looking to get in contact with the OAA, Archery Talk is not the proper channel to do so. I am the only member of the board who regularly keeps an eye on what goes on here. Of the 10 that are current board members only 2 have accounts.


As Stash stated you are looking into a OAA Forum and that is good. Many times over the years I have seen the play by plays on here on what is and is not going on at the AGM. Rule Changes and Position Changes, debates on tournament setups and when rules seem to be bent or broken. So I must disagree that the OAA has not used this site to get information across to members in the past.



> Next year the AGM is at Colby (the Bow Shop). They have the capacity to stop a crossbow bolt before the nock gets buried in the butt; a lot sooner then the average arrow. This being said, the AGM is not a shooting event. It is at the clubs discretion as to whether or not they open their range to our membership. I would love to mandate that every club in Ontario must be crossbow friendly, however this is not realistic.


The bow Shop sells them so it should be a no brainer that you can shoot them there and it is not that hard to build or by a butt that will stop a crossbow bolt. 
I have stated a few times that I realize you can not tell a club what to do. But you can refuse them an event under OAA sponsor. And I stated that this is a good thing and really not a lot more can be done but education and try to help these clubs work through the issues they technically may have. But to have a club point blank say it is just because it is a crossbow is a slap in the face to all, it is discrimination based on ignorace of the facts. Can you take further steps.........I guess that ball is in your court as I am just a chair of a club and it will be the day under my guard that we allow that type of discrimination.



> As Stash stated, the OAA is probably the most pro-crossbow provincial organization in Canada. We have spent a lot of time working with Archery Canada in an attempt to get them to the same level as we are at in regard to competition. We have made some progress but still have a long way to go.


This again is well and good but to be honest it falls short of what I feel your mandate should be. 

You will agree we came very close to having to register Crossbows in Canada.
Does the OAA support or not support this?
When it was on the table and in the mix of this flawed legislation what steps did the OAA take to fight it, if any?
Do you as President see that if we have to register Crossbows in Canada that Compounds will not be far behind?

Thank You for your answers in advance.

Stash, the 280 rule was for compounds not crossbows. Crossbows have less effect now as always because of low numbers. The issue becomes the verticals now over 325 fps having a major negative effect on targets because there are more of them now.



> If I choose, I even have the freedom to discriminate against people of other races or religions, as long as my actions don't adversely affect their rights.


Really, say that in front of a Government council looking into archery, or a provincal funding authority. Just make sure you tell me when because I want to be there to see their faces when you do.



> Having the freedom to do the wrong thing is the essence of our society.


Really, not sure if essence would be the word I would use here, plague in my view would be a better term...............roll the names Bernardo and Holmocka in your head for a while and see if you still come up with the word essence.

Good Debate, seeing where someone is going here maybe it would be good to have it in private.

I will call OAA,

Bob


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

In reference to your Bernardo/Homolka comment - I think that was well outside the bounds of what we're talking about. 

Please note I made it _*absolutely clear *_that


> I think any reasonable person would agree that people should not be free to act outside the boundaries of society's laws.
> My idea of "freedom" is just that - freedom (within the above constraints). That's where I draw the line.


 I do not support the freedom to do "wrongs" that all of society condemns. 

If a family of a different religion moves in next to me, I am _*not*_ free to try to make them leave, or infringe on their rights in any way. I am free, however, to like or dislike them for any reason I choose, and I am free to stay or move away. 

When I said "having the freedom to do the wrong thing is the essence of our society" I was using the word "wrong" in the sense of an opinion, majority or minority, not in the legal sense. I hope that's clear - it's that famous theme "I may not agree with your opinion, but I will fight to support your freedom to have that opinion." 

I do support the freedom to make personal choices outside of the collective of a group I wish to join. If I join the OAA or any other association, it does not mean that I must completely accept ALL of their principles - I do not give up my right to have a differing opinion, and act accordingly, limited by the rules which I have freely consented to abide by.

If the OAA makes a rule, supported by the majority, that all member clubs must have facilities for crossbows, and I disagree with that rule, I still have the freedom of choice. I can either join and accept it, or join and try to change the rule, or choose not to join and accept it, or choose not to join and try to change the rule.

Ditto in the reverse. The OAA does not have such a rule. If you believe it should, then you have the freedom to join and accept that the rule isn't there, or join and try in some way to get the rule included (which is what you as an OAA member are doing here by discussing it), or don't join and accept it, or don't join and try to get the rule included.



> Good Debate, seeing where someone is going here maybe it would be good to have it in private.


What, you want to hide this discussion behind closed doors?   

I'm hoping more people might put down their popcorn and chime in. As long as it's stays archery-related, that is.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Bob, what is it you want out of this thread you started?
Its gone beyond the OAA, crossbows, target butts etc. All I care is that you brought the AMA up and use 'facts' that aern't entirely accurate.
As an AMA member and volunteer I feel responsible to clear up any mis-information on their behalf that I can. You still don't have the full story and hope ATers here understand that. The AMA is a great club that does alot of good for the community, kids and the outdoor sports in general. The OAA does a bang up job for the few archers that populate this giant province of ours. 
I think using ArcheryTalk to make points and call people out is just plain wrong. For any issue. Wouldn't calling the OAA president, in private, about this 'crossbow-gate' have been a little more tactful?


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

> Bob, what is it you want out of this thread you started?
> Its gone beyond the OAA, crossbows, target butts etc. All I care is that you brought the AMA up and use 'facts' that aern't entirely accurate.
> As an AMA member and volunteer I feel responsible to clear up any mis-information on their behalf that I can. You still don't have the full story and hope ATers here understand that. The AMA is a great club that does alot of good for the community, kids and the outdoor sports in general. The OAA does a bang up job for the few archers that populate this giant province of ours.
> I think using ArcheryTalk to make points and call people out is just plain wrong. For any issue. Wouldn't calling the OAA president, in private, about this 'crossbow-gate' have been a little more tactful?


First Rob I never named the club you did, second the facts I gave are accurate 100%. Did I go into names no i did not, did I go into events no I did not. If you want to the floor is yours. Never said AMA was not a good club anywhere and I agree they do a lot of good in the community, again I never said they did not. Next I did not call anyone out, nor was that my intent. Stash gave me the information I needed and if you read I did appoligize to OCCS for putting the issue on their shoulder which was wrong. But even good clubs need to be called to the carpet once in a while and it makes them better in the long run.

What I take exception to is what I stated in the begining "how does no-crossbows" in print make it to an Official Release of a Archery organization in the first place that states it supports all Archery in Ontario? So that is what I was looking for out of this thread. And for the most part had Stash left it alone because his first response gave the information.........1. They do allow crossbows. And 2. The in print was a mistake or missunderstanding. Good to go right. My response was this:



> GenesisAlpha
> Thank You Stash for clearing that up.
> 
> 
> ...


The next couple of threads I get accused of starting a conspiracy and telling people what I think their club should do. What I gave were my convictions and if you or anyone else does not follow them thats fine. But I will voice them even if you dissagree.

Just to add here AMA in the long past while I was a board member did not allow crossbows in the club. I spent a night after the indoor shooting to prove the untruths about crossbows to the member most opposed to them. After that night they were allowed............was it to call somemon out.........no. It was to increase membership because the doors were opened wider after we opened some minds.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Stash, I believe that some lines were crossed here that should not be. Do I except part of the blame for continuing it...........yes I do. But I will defend my beliefs and I do not owe no apploogy for that. And I am not looking for others to post to support those, I want no war here. I have no fear of standing alone on an issue.

Up front I would have not continued down this path had you have left your first statement, but you did not. You did answer my question to a degree and on some points I think we are on the same page. 

We both know funding these day to groups like OAA are based on inclussion not exclussion and in essence that was my point on things like OAA help or any help for that matter to help clubs be able to open there doors to all form of archery and that includes crossbows. I also believe that we must go a step further by protecting all Archers rights.

So, if you disagree with my way or direction that is cool but do not take that right from me on the other side of the fence. 

I said I will call on the Print issue and I will,

Bob


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2010)

GenesisAlpha said:


> You will agree we came very close to having to register Crossbows in Canada.
> Does the OAA support or not support this?
> When it was on the table and in the mix of this flawed legislation what steps did the OAA take to fight it, if any?
> Do you as President see that if we have to register Crossbows in Canada that Compounds will not be far behind?
> ...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Bob: No war at my end either. Hard to show in text, but just an honest discussion, and I did toss in a few smilies to show I wasn't trying to be vindictive. I do agree I jumped on some things I should have passed on. Peace.


Sean, for the benefit of those who weren't around, how about answering those same questions one more time?


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Peace also Stash:thumbs_up

Bob


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## CSinnott (Oct 30, 2010)

*From the OCCS*

Crossbows are allowed. Must be loaded at the line. Always pointing downrange. (This goes for all bows) Use your own block because the speed and diameter of the arrow creates enough friction to melt the plastic of our spider-webbing buttress system.

We are completely wheelchair accessable.

We don't mind crossbows, however the crack when a crossbow is fired can startle some archers and that needs to be respected. If there was enough interest, we could have a crossbow night, but we are still a buisness. 

Thanks for speaking up for us, Stan. We just heard about this today.

Scott
Vice President OCCS


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## OCCS-RJ (Mar 8, 2010)

*further to the crossbow no crossbow issue*

posted on the Excalibur forum October 12, 2010

_20 yard indoor range crossbow friendly
by OCCS-RJ » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:13 pm 

Hello folks,

I am the owner of a seven thousand square foot indoor archery range located in Mississauga Ontario and was wondering if there would be any interest within the crossbow community of us setting up a crossbow night. We can shoot up to 18M/20 Yds. It's not far for you guys but it'll get you sighted in for the season. We may be a little late for this years hunting season but we are just getting started. Please let me know it you think there is anything I can do for you.

Regards
RJ (Ontario Centre for Classical Sport)_

Not that I want this thread to continue any further, I would however like to restate that we had no input on the flyer design, wording or delivery. We as private business owners have invested over 250k dollars building this venue because of our dedication to the sport in all it's forms (crossbows included). The issue of the "bring your own block" is more financial than exclusionary. We have also been asked about installing tree stands in the unit (we have a 22' ceiling height) and to have 3d targets available. All of these things may come to be at some point but in the first 6 months of operation it is simply impossible. *All are welcome *to stop by and see our facility and decide if it is a place for you, we will do what we can to make all reasonable accommodations. 

regards 
Ron Jackson
(President OCCS Mississauga 905-820-5151)


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Ron and Scott, Again I will appoligize to You and your business. And I did do that once Stash posted the first time.



> My appoligy to the OCCS as the print on the flyer was very clear. And I would suggest the possibility that targets be purchased to resolve the issue of bring your own. We have dissabled archers that have enough of a job to get themselves and their shooting equipment to a facility let alone to have to bring their own target. It just makes sense to look at all needs and not leave the door open to being excluded for any reason.


After that it was a diffence of opinion on crossbows being allowed anywhere or by any club, again between Stash and I. At that point it had no reflection on your facility.

Seeing that your facility is wheelchair accessable tells me you are going above and beyond most to accomidate. For this I applaud you. The target issue I see also but can be fixed at a small cost and maybe seeing the high numbers of crossbow shooters are not there at this point in time can be narrowed to one target until such levels of shooters are there to afford more, again a suggestion not trying to tell you that it must be done.

There are a lot of crossbow shooters in Ontario and in the GTA area. At some point these people will have to look at practice in facilities which for clubs and or a business is revenue. It is my view important we grow the sport and crossbows are often an overlooked part of the sport for the wrong reasons.

This thread I agree has gone past the point of the reason I posted, and some things got too indepth and critical. As I stated above this is partially at my doorstep, but I will not appoligize for defending my beliefs. I think we all will do that as needed.

Bob


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

hey guys just to highjack thread at the agm WAS the new format instated that we shot in june at the provincials that south nation hosted.. ??? also records updated yet??? its now november 6 months.. later ??? there are new items weekly on site THIS IS HISTORY it should be brought up to date asap...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Yes, the new format for the OAA Target Champs was voted in. I don't recall any discussion regarding records but have been known to miss things.  

Sean?


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

Stash said:


> Yes, the new format for the OAA Target Champs was voted in. I don't recall any discussion regarding records but have been known to miss things.
> 
> Sean?




Ya getting the websight updated on a continualy basis was discussed, Adam said he would get to it when time permits, I beleive that Peter Garret is loking after the records for the OAA so Adam maybe waiting on him but don't know for sure


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

adam has had records for almost 2 months from peter.......


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