# 27" Win & Win Inno Max and Extra Short Border Hex 6H BB2 limbs



## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

The limbs arrived a couple days ago and I have been busy putting the bow together and getting it tuned.
HERE is a link to Photobucket for the images. 

Most folks go with a 27" riser because they have a very long draw and want to stay within the limbs design limits of conventional limbs. I have a 27" draw and went with a 27" riser so I could use Extra Short limbs in a quest for ultimate performance. 

Here are the Specifications:

The riser and all the custom parts (rest, plunger, stabilizers, ect) weighs in at 1905 grams. 
Each Extra Short Hex 6 limb weighs 138.4 grams (276.8 grams total)
(for comparison, my set of medium Hex 5 W limbs weigh 174.8 grams each 349.6 grams total)
AMO standard for the bow is 66". 
At brace the bow is 62" tip-to-tip.
Brace Height 7" 
51# at my 27" DL.
30" Airforce GT 20 Full Taper Carbon shafts with 150 Grain points weigh 454 grains.
12 strand D97 string, tied nocks, dynapuffs
204 fps with hunting weight arrows and a 27" draw at my 20 yard crawl. 

In the photos, one shot shows the new bow superimposed over the same riser with the Hex 5 limbs (The medium Hex 5W limbs are clearly too long for me on this riser and were under performing as expected) Nonetheless the speed difference is remarkable. 

As many others have noted the feel of the Hex 6H BB2 limb is truly unique. I have been shooting the Hex 5W for years and thought I understood smoothness. These extra short Hex6H BB2 limbs represent a completely new level of speed, smoothness and stability. I could not be happier.

Thanks for looking, 

Rasyad


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

WOW those are some small limbs! Why shoot without the grip? Does it just feel better gripless?


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

I've never seen extra short limbs before. They look awesome!


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

Arsi, 

I have smallish and thick hands and have tried every kind of grip out there (jager, best, hoyt, W&W). As it turns out the narrow flat bare riser indexes perfectly for me much like many compound grips. 

Bacon, 

Thanks, the bow is turning out as planned. Hank will be helping with some DFC graphs and I will post when we have them. 

Rasyad


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

Can't wait to see the DFC on that set up.

Those have to be wicked fast!

Hank gona chrono those for ya too?


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

DruFire said:


> Can't wait to see the DFC on that set up.
> 
> Those have to be wicked fast!
> 
> Hank gona chrono those for ya too?


204 with heavy arrows. Didn't see that before.

be interesting in what a 300 gr arrow would do.


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## bowgal (Jun 12, 2003)

Do the limbs stack quite a bit?


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

bowgal said:


> Do the limbs stack quite a bit?


Not borders hex series limbs. They do the opposite. Gets easier to pull, up to a point.

If you google "border hex6 DFC"
You'll see borders don't follow the 2# + per inch that other limbs seem to follow.

With limbs matched to your draw length 
They drop down quiet a bit. Medium limbs for example, on a 68" bow Going as low as 1 lb pound diffrence from 28"-29" making the "clicker zone" very very smooth.

Some set ups get as low as half a pound in the 28-29 range.


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

I should have the DFC posted up in a couple days. All thanks to Border for the magic of the Hex 6H BB2 design and for helping make this project bow so sucessfull. I could have gone with the Short limbs and left a tiny bit of performance on the table. I am glad we kept to the plan and were able to prove the effectiveness of shorter limbs and longer risers. 

Rasyad


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Whoa! Nice! Ive been eagerly awaiting you getting this rig set up

I have some xl bb2's going on a 25" rcx100 for my 32" draw length. They are exactly as you describe with regards to feel. 

Do you have a link to the arrows you are shooting? 

Is your chest protector part of your quiver strap?? Cool. 


Ps. I may be wrong but I think most regs state that the bow sling cannot be physically attached to the bow like you have it there. No big for hunting but you might want to check it out before you go win a competition shooting that sweet setup because if they can then someone WILL complain if you start winning.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

ryan b. said:


> Whoa! Nice! Ive been eagerly awaiting you getting this rig set up
> 
> I have some xl bb2's going on a 25" rcx100 for my 32" draw length. They are exactly as you describe with regards to feel.
> 
> ...


Those aren't arrows, they are spears! That bow would likely shoot a 300 grain arrow around 245 feet per second, but I doubt that light of an arrow is Border-approved for that very special bow.


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

Already checked Sids specs, 330 grain is the lowest they reccomend for 27" draw at 51#


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Ryan B-

A local here shoots a Vari-bow, and as the grip is a bit of a "floater" on a rod, he ties his sling onto the grip rod. Afair, he shot state with it.


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

Ryan, 

Allied Archery Associates Inc 126 Main St Ste B, Dundee, MI 48131 (734) 529-5269 specs and distributes the AMG Airforce GT 20 shafts. 

Yes, I built a chest protector into the strap for my shoulder bag / quiver, works great. 

Rasyad


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

Ryan, 

Here is a picture of my archery bag.

Rasyad


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Here is an assessment of Raysad's bow using DFC data he provide me. I am also comparing smoothness to a 70 inch bow using long Border HEX6 limbs. I will throw in a smoothness comparisons to some Olympic style bows I have tested. You will notice that the extra short limbs are very smooth (low weight per inch) up to about 25 inches. After that, they start to pick up weight pretty quickly. They are still only at 1.6y pounds per inch at Raysad's draw length of 27 inches. By comparison, the long HEX6 limbs stay well below 2 pounds per inch all the way out through 32 inches.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

This is a comparison of the smoothness of the Border HEX6 BB2 limbs to three Olympic setups using: Win Win Apex, MK Korea Mach 3 and Uukha UX100. You can see that the minimum pounds per inch of the conventional geometry limbs is much higher with the minimum being at the lift point (where the string loses contact with the limbs and lever length becomes constant). The three Olympic rigs are shot by an archer with a 27 1/2 inch draw length. The large recurve of the Border HEX limbs moves the lift point closer to the release point which drives pounds per inch down to about 1 at the minimum. This delays the on-set of stacking, much more on longs than extra shorts. All bows below are 66 inches except the MK Korea, which is 68.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Correction on my chart above. Rasyad's bow is 66 inches. I posted the uncorrected copy of my charts.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Please ignore my misspelling of Rasyad's name in the first post. I was able to correct it in the second.


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

Wow Hank, 

Thank You. Your comparison with conventional limbs really highlights what is now possible using a 27" riser and Extra Short Super Recurve limb geometry. In addition to higher efficiency and smoothness, torsional and vertical stability should likewise be higher. The longer riser is more stable with regard to pitch because of the extra mass at a greater moment than a 25 inch riser. This combined with the significantly lower limb mass of Border's Extra Short limb one would predict a consistent and forgiving bow. I am still early on but the bow is unlike anything else I have ever shot, in a good way. 

Rasyad


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I had not mentioned efficiency in any detail yet. Rasyad's bow is the most efficient I have measured, converting 84% of stored energy into kinetic energy. The previous leader was the MK Korea Mach 3 at 77%, with my personal 70 inch Border HEX6 limbs second at 70%.

Most other bows I have measured are in the 60's. The Win Win Apex hit 70%. There are a lot of variables that impact efficiency and efficiency measurements. The gap is too large in this case to attribute the difference to experimental error. I will get a better feel for factors that drive efficiency as I expand my database of bows tests.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I had not mentioned efficiency in any detail yet. Rasyad's bow is the most efficient I have measured, converting 84% of stored energy into kinetic energy. The previous leader was the MK Korea Mach 3 at 77%, with my personal 70 inch Border HEX6 limbs second at 70%.
> 
> Most other bows I have measured are in the 60's. The Win Win Apex hit 70%. There are a lot of variables that impact efficiency and efficiency measurements. The gap is too large in this case to attribute the difference to experimental error. I will get a better feel for factors that drive efficiency as I expand my database of bows tests.


grains per pound effect efficency. we try to consider residual energy to estimate minimum arrow mass. for example heavy bows. and draw length all store more energy so the bow needs a bigger buffer in terms of higher efficency to help protect it.


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

Hey Sid, 

Enjoying your vacation? I am pretty much blown away by the new bow. The feel of the bow is fantastic and Hanks graphs confirm that we have established a new performance threshold, especially for shorter draw archers. 

My hunting weight arrows are 454 grains (454 / 51 = 8.9 grains per pound) which work great. I also have some 375 grain target arrows I would like to use (375 / 51 = 7.35 gpp) what do you think? 

Rasyad


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Typo above. My personal HEX6 limbs were actually 75% efficient. I was shooting 344 gr ACE 430 from mine, while Rasyad was shooting 454 gr arrows from his. I am drawing a 70 inch bow 32 inches while Rasyad is drawing a 66 inch bow 27 inches.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Once and for all, the belief that super-recurved limbs are only suitable for longer draw archers is blown out of the water.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

lets say there are multiple max settings on a bow. Use them all and your more likely to find issues. Use some and you will get a fun bow with much less of an issue in the future.
our recommendation of mimimum for that draw weight and length would be 332, so you should be fine with 7.35gpp or 375 gains.

I do find it interesting that even with dynapufs your getting quite a bit over 200 fps from *under* 28" draw at dam close to 9gpp.

I assume your readings are finger shot?

Efficency and high energy are two different things to achieve.
If you see the high energy glass bows tend to loose on the efficiency stakes. as faster generally means less efficient. 
Take the Bugatti and the Bugatti SS. its got something silly like 400 BHP more to achieve only 16mph more top speed.
if you put 400bhp into your average saloon car, you would get more then 16 mph eh? 
on the top end performance, you need to make big changes. and considereing Most glass long ILF limbs are 200+ grams per limb and your limbs are sub 140grams.
the rule of thumb is long limbs store good energy. but look at Hanks data, you have an SEDF value of around 1 at 27.5" if im seeing the graphs right.
over 1 at 28 is high energy design.
so high energy with very low chassis weight = quick bow.


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