# ? re Hill longbows



## kbob (Dec 18, 2007)

Hi folks,
Getting an itch to try a Howard Hill longbow but know nothing about them.

How does the number of limb laminations affect smoothnes,stack etc?

Is draw weight comparable to a recurve?

What type of string and arrows do you recommend?

Since they are fiberglass does the limb wood (ie. bamboo, yew osage) affect anything?

Looking at the Tembo and Big five, any comments or observations about these bows would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Getting an itch to try a Howard Hill longbow but know nothing about them.


That statement is the only reason I'm chiming in. I don't own a HH longbow, and I'm certainly no authority on them......but I figure I'll give some opinions you won't always hear from most Hill fans. FWIW, I have shot several Hill longbows, including one or two of Bob Wesley's personal Wesley Specials, and other "Hill style" longbows.

As with any bow, if you get a chance try it first. To me, longbows vary a LOT more than recurves in the way the feel and shoot, and especially in degrees of hand shock (some recurves are the exception and will rattle your teeth, but they are few and far between).

Hand shock is my #1 problem with most every Hill or Hill style bow I've shot. For that reason, if you decide to get one I'd definately get it made to accept one of the "high performance" string materials such as Dynaflight '97, Formula 8125, etc. These help a whole bunch is this dept. by reducing the shock.

The standard Hill grip does not fit me at all, and is totally different than most recurves you will get your hands on. Straight and narrow.

Arrows, as with any bow, will be a matter of personal choice.

In a narrow, deep cored limb (like the Hill) limb wood does make a difference--much moreso than in a wide, thin limb like most recurves have. Yew is my personal favorite for a longbow limb.

The positives, IMO, are they draw very smoothly and are very quiet, and Craig Ekin has an outstanding reputation both as a bowyer and for customer service. I'm not knocking the bows at all, just stating why they aren't the bow for me.

Chad


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I've always preferred the HH style longbow and own a Wesley and an old Big Five. I suspect I prefer them because they were the ones I learned on. I have to agree with Chad that they do have handshock and a FF type bowstring helps. Just keep shooting it until the nerve endings in your hand die and it won't make any difference anymore, LOL. Some people really like the classic HH grip which is very narrow and deep but I do not. I ordered my Wesley with the contoured grip and asked them to cut centershot and throat as skinny as they dare. I prefer HH bows of about 68"; I have a 28" draw. I've never been convinced the type of wood in the lams is nearly as important as the number of lams. The more lams, the faster things seem to shoot. That's just my take and I don't claim to be any sort of expert, only a shooter. In any event, I love 'em but that's just my humble opinion. Make sure you get a copy of "Hunting the Hard Way" or other book to go along with.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

*Wesley Special*

My Wesley with 3 lams of bamboo and outside lams of edge cut Bocote under clear glass.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

Another angle ...


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

kbob -

Based on the Hills I own (Std configuration dished or straight grip and 70"):

1. There's no appreciable difference in the number of laminations. The reasons for multiple core lams is to help even out variations in the materials density. Generally wasn't necessary.

2. The Hills are remarkably smooth, yes longer is better. Speed per pound is pretty close to what Ekin advertises: Draw weight + 115 = fps with the correct arrow choice.

3. At last check Ekin say that FF is OK, but my shorten the life span of the bow. I use B-50 on mine. Arrows are aluminums, typically 5# UNDER std spine, due to the distance from centershot.

4. The limb core alters the mass weight of the limb. The lighter the material the faster the limb can accelerate. That's why bamboo was originally favored over wood cores. (The difference between the two is on the order of 5 or so fps, based on Ekin's statements and that holds on the bows that I have.)

5. I have both a Tembo (73#@28" from 1974) and an Big 5 (60#@29" from 1979 ). The Tembo just feels better and IMHO shoots better. The Big 5 never quite came to hand for me. Both have disehed grips, but the dimensions are slightly different. 

Sorry, never got into the fancy woods, etc ...

YMMV

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Tony,

Now you've gone and done it. How are your detractors going to think of you as that wimpy target shooter if you have had (and shot) 73# & 60# HH Longbows for years. You image is tarnished for ever. (big smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dave - 

I've got more skeletons than that in my closet ... LOL.

BTW - I still have them, and when my bones allow, can still shoot 'em... 

Viper1 out.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I use to hunt with 70#+ bows and have the pulled ligaments to prove it ...


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## kbob (Dec 18, 2007)

Hey folks, thanks for the comprehensive replies.
As seen in the photos they appear to be sleek, elegant bows.
There was some mention about centershot and arrow spine. Can these bows be cut to center or just close to center?
Are they particularly hard on the bones and joints as mentioned or is that just a function of draw weight? I'd be looking at about 55#.
I have e-mailed Mr Ekin - wonder if they have a demo program like black widow.
Thanks for the replies, I'm going to try to find one to try out first.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

kbob - 

Most of the HIll riser designs don't allow cutting too near centershot, and that's not a minus. Centershot allows greater flexibility in arrow choice, but can easily be overdone and cause the bow to be overly critical. The idea is to use/exploit offset from center (paradox) and NOT try to eliminate it. 

I'm sure they will sooner or later make one centershot to satisfy customer request, but like extra core lams, really isn't necesary.

Hill style longbows have handshock - period. There's always a lot of talk about "the proper grip" or "bowarm position" to minimize the hand shock. While there are better and worse ways to hold a Hill longbow, after a few weeks most people THINK they've found the right way of doing it. In reality, those people have just adapted to it. I've found that after about a month or so of regular shooting, you'll either get it (adapt to it) or you won't. 

I don't believe that Craig has a try before you buy plan, but you can ask. In the 70's, Ted (Craig's father) used to suggest that people in my area call me to see my Hill bows. They did that with a number of satisfied customers. Back then, before the advent of the more severely REflexed/DEflexed "longbows", believe it or not, longbows weren't as popular as they are today.

Viper1 out.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I agree with Vipe, the HH style longbows all have varying amounts of handshock. You get used to it after a while. Asking for your HH bow to be cut as close to centershot as possible does not make it anywhere near actual centershot and makes the bow more forgiving. Also, an extra amount of dish in the contour grip made it more comfortable for me but that's purely a personal call. I wouldn't get hung up on the number of lams either. However, the faster HH style bows I've owned seemed to have had 4 or 5 lams although I have 3 lam longbows that shoot great too. Get the one you want and am comfortable with the price.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Are they particularly hard on the bones and joints as mentioned


Yes, especially if you have any problems with arthritus/tendonitus. I have a touch of arthritus in my elbow--if I shoot a bow with much hand shock for any amount of time, my elbow is usually too sore to shoot anything the next day.

That's one reason my main bow is a deflex/reflex "longbow", vs. a Howard Hill or Hill style "longbow". I put both in parenthesis, because neither one is the same as a true English longbow, although there were some cave drawings discovered--in Spain, I believe--of a deflex/reflex "longbow", which makes the design considerably older than Howard Hill's American "longbow" design.

Chad


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

Chad, the defelx/reflex bows you speak of are called recurves, LOL ...


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## AK in PA (Nov 30, 2002)

Ahh, Hill's...great bows! They're smooth drawing, quiet, forgiving workhorses. I have a Big 5 marked 70# @ 28", which pulls 61# @ my 25" draw. It shoots on par in shooting manners and speed as my osage selfbows. 

The number of limb lams doubtfully add much (if any) feel of the bow, IMO, though some swear that more lams do draw more smoothly. It may make them arguably more resilient and uniform. The lighter limb woods, (bamboo / yew) may be slightly faster than heavier woods. (Note that the fiberglass does almost all the work. The wood is more is less a "gap filler" that is along for the ride.)

By draw weight, I assume you're asking how the draw feels compared to a recurve. As with any straight end bow, the increase in draw weight is more linear than that of a recurve. They have a lower early draw weight than a recurve, but a proportionately more uniform increase in weight as the bow is draw.

As for bowstrings, I'm partial to Dynaflight 97. If offers the most bang for the buck in low stretch strings. I don't care for B-50 on anything. I'm also partial to moderately heavy arrows, 9-12 grn/lb. They're quiet and provide a good balance between tradjectory and impact force.

On the grip, most recurve grips (save the more slender 50's style grips) are bulky, unnatural bricks to me. I also don't care for high wrist or pistol grips on most recurves at all. On the handshock issue that always seems to pop up in Hill discussions, they may give a bit more bump in the hand than some heavy handled recurves, but certainly nothing that I've ever construed as negative. It's just a different feel. I honestly don't get the "joint-jarring" claims purported by some.


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

I've owned one Hill style bow, Jerry Hill wildcat deluxe to be more acurrate.
25 years of shooting recurves and never an issue,,,6 months of shooting the JH and tendonitis for the rest of my life.
They tell me it can be cured if I go under the knife,,,,but it's easier to just not shoot straight limbed longbows.
Pity really,,I liked that bow


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Many of us have found the Hill design to simply provide the most fun and satisfaction. My pet is also a Tembo,and I do think bamboo, having low mass in those long limbs, is a factor. I wouldn't worry about center shot, just take it as it comes and tune arrows to match. I prefer Fast Flight strings. And I find the bows shoot best and sweetest with heavy arrows, say 550 to 600 grains or more; they are more about power than speed.

And regarding 'shock'. These bows are very light in the hand. There is little mass to absorb stray energy, so you can feel them work. They are not 'dead' in the hand; they are alive. Many of us do not perceive this as shock and find it part of their charm.

Better get one, the longer the better- a man has got to know! - lbg


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## david_lewis93 (Jul 4, 2008)

*long bows rock!!*

I have a HH style long bow now,after market knock off but she shoots good,I already know what I'm getting me for the next B.day ,An HH you finish it blank in 70 or 72" at40# @28" ,that seems to be the only way I;ll get what I want and NOT have to take out hostage insurance on my dog yes they do fit in the woods at that length too I;ve seenem do it.:shade:


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

kbob, see what I mean? Course you'll get various and differing opinions with most any bow you ask about.

Dave T, whatever gave you that idea? I haven't seen any posts about "wimpy target shooters". Heck, the best target shooter I know--and according to his record one of the best in the country--is also one of the first guys I can think of I'd want on my side in a bar fight. 'Course we all know that shooting heavier draw weights automatically makes you an authority on all things archery, right?:tongue: I just realized I must be a "guru", because I used to shoot tournaments with an 82# longbow and have shot as much as 120 lbs (give or take).



> Chad, the defelx/reflex bows you speak of are called recurves, LOL ...


Not according to the TX State Longbow Championship, IBO, the ASTB, MTA, TBG, etc. etc. etc. 



> And regarding 'shock'. These bows are very light in the hand. There is little mass to absorb stray energy, so you can feel them work. They are not 'dead' in the hand; they are alive. Many of us do not perceive this as shock and find it part of their charm.


That's an intersting way to put it. According to my digital scale, my favorite longbow weighs in at 1.6 lbs (cocobolo riser), but it doesn't hurt my elbow to shoot it. The shock comes more from the design, but I agree the light mass wieght doesn't mask it. 'Course if you like 'em, nothing wrong with that.

I remembered one Hill style I've shot that really suprized me--it had very little hand shock. A friend of mine made it--think it was the sweetest bow he's made. Shot like a typical Hill style bow--smooth, quiet, and comparably slow--and that dang straight grip. 

Chad


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Just got my wesley special last week. This was the second one that Craig had to build me because good ole Fedex broke the first one in shipping....I absolutley love it! I will get some pictures posted this week. It is 64" 45# @ 29", shoots very well! I honestly have to say I dont think it shoots as smooth as another custom bow I have but it is very close!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

This is off topic but i have had great luck with my pronghorn. Its a reflex deflex design that shoots very well with little handshock. Herb is a good man, stood in his workshop and visited for hours. His prices are great for how much you get. My bow was a TD longbow. Sorry to hijack the thread.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*sorry but*

sorry but if you want a great shooting close to no handshock and reasonably fast longbow buy a check mate crusader and be very satisfied and a little bit richer...


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*HH Bows*

Sorry 
i don't have a HH but my Martin ML-10 sure looks like one, and for my shooting it works as well as I do. Hand shock, it's there but I don't feel it to be a problem. Could be the way I shoot, push/pull draw. Or it could be that I don't kill the grip. Either way I don't focus on it, just the hair above the heart as they say. So if you like the HH style bows, get one. They work well. Super quiet, and very stable.


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

I had a ML-10 and even thought they look similer thats where it ends,, Hill bows are an awesome bow,, some have shock and some don't.. Ihave two a 1969 original big five and a John Strunk hill style "Lone Spirit" and the strunk has a bit of shock (or vibration) and the big five has nothing or should I say feels like one of my recurves. 

I think the thing to get used to is how to hold it with your palm down (shultz style) and the mass weight or the bow is very light so that takes some getting used to.. 

goods thing about a hill is they still sell pretty fast on the used market if you don't like them

for more pics and info check out this website

www.howardhilllongbowmen.com


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Taj*

I never said a Martin is better than a Hill but I don't believe they are that far apart. If I'm getting my arrows to zip in on target, quietly what can a Hill do that much better, except cost twice as much.


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

no no don't take that the wrong way,, martin is a good bow and I owned one but the thing that is different is the martin has wider limbs and the grip is a more rounded grip like A D-section longbow. hills grip is wider front to back but skinnier (unless a different grip is custom shaped by craig) ) and the limbs are much more narrower,, If I remember right my ML-10 (martin pioneer) liked a higher brace height where the hillls I have owned like the lower brace height.. 

so both are american style longbows but a bit different in character,, I think the hills are pretty nice and I do think they shoot different especially with a very heavy arrow--> when I owned a ML-10 I was young and shot 1916's from it which looking back on that where way too light for a straight limbed longbow and it had alot of shock.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Thanks Taj*

No problem Taj, thanks for the info on the other posts. I'm just jacked picking this bow up, in great shape and I love how she shoots. I did use 2016 and they are working nice. Thought about trying Beman carbons rated at 10gr per inch. They are just as heavy as 1916's I believe.


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

hey Teucer, I keep mentioning how I think the 1916's are too light ,, or when I used them too light at that time for me. 

but i noticed in that other thread you will use some,, heres a cool trick that won't effect arrow spine at all. if you do choose to use the 1916's from your bow put some heat on the inserts and pull them out, next you can put weedwacker line inside the shaft to build up the weight if you need too..

cut the weedwacker line about 1/4 longer so when you glue the insert back in it compresses the weedwacker line and it won't shake around, its quiet, it won't make the arrow shoot any different (other than more weight) and you can even put a few pieces in there more even more weight.. you swill eventually find an arrow weight that fits your bow perfect, like a sweet spot you will feel in your bow when you shoot it.


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