# Once again, only our compounders are left standing...



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

In the world cup individual events in Shanghai...

I feel like I've seen this movie before. 

Wasn't the "BEST" method supposed to make our recurve archers more competitive in the matchplay format? 

Thank you, once again, compound archers for holding up the US Flag when all the teams show up to play. You guys rock.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Is there a published bracket to see how it all went down?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=331&me_id=461&cnt_id=7997


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## Dave_Gilbert (Aug 28, 2012)

Here you go: http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/Results/Results/2013/13_AWC_Shanghai/IEFRM.pdf
and http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/Results/Results/2013/13_AWC_Shanghai/IQRRW.pdf



lksseven said:


> Is there a published bracket to see how it all went down?


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Brady falling to Taylor Worth again? Man :/


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

What is really worrying are Korean compounders.......


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I have no insight into how any of these athletes practice, but speculating based on following social media - it seems like the US recurve crew (mens in particular) haven't been training as hard as they had prior to the olympics.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> What is really worrying are Korean compounders.......


I've mentioned this before - the rest of the world will catch up to our compounders. 

Gee...history repeating itself? Naaaaaah......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm sure they all did their best, and I'm proud of all our recurve archers. However, I still can't get over how ironic it is that 75% (or more) of the international podium placements are earned by compound archers, who aren't even allowed to compete in the Olympics, and for years were given short shrift by the NAA/USArchery. 

Does anyone know whether the compound teams in Shanghai were even funded this time by USArchery, or are they there, once again, on their own nickel?

I know most, if not all the recurvers would have had plane tickets handed to them...

Time to start really rewarding our compound archers according to their achievements, I think. When nearly every time we see an announcement that "U.S. Archers in medal matches" ends up being about our compound archers, we should make sure they are at least as well supported as our recurve archers, period.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> In the world cup individual events in Shanghai...
> 
> I feel like I've seen this movie before.
> 
> ...


John, I've got some theories regarding that.

You see some of our archers using the latest and greatest that haven't necessarily proven itself. One of the few pictures getting released by World Archery show that Brady was messing with an Ion-X, for example.

A lot of feedback that I've gotten from people that went out and purchased (across various years) the Formula RX, the HPX, and then the Ion-X seem to show that when you absolutely have to have the most stable bow out there, you go with the Formula RX. I don't know if our shooters have that option to choose like others do.

Heck, there's even a picture of Reo with his 2012 Hoyt Vantage Elite at this year's worlds. What happened to the Pro Comp Elite? Oh, but I have theories on that too...


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## TheRohBoat (Sep 4, 2012)

I would tread lightly when it comes to ripping on the BEST/NTS stuff.

That being said, why did all of our shooters drop like fleas? They all got knocked out in earlier eliminations. What happened to our recurve dominance that existed a few years ago? Am I the only one who's starting to think that our recurve team is starting to lose momentum? Perhaps it's to early to tell as there are more stages to compete in.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There are indeed a lot of influences in this sport unknown to the casual observer. I will agree there.

But the one thing I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE about this sport is that the bottom line is where the arrows land on the target, period. 

Not the brand they use, not who they shoot for, not where they're from or what they look like. It's the ultimate level playing field. Show up, shoot, and see what happens. And frankly, our compounders are still leading the world.

As far as recurve matchplay technique, think about what Vic Wunderle was doing from 2000-2008. Three consecutive top-8 individual finishes in the Olympic games? What other archer has done that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I would tread lightly when it comes to ripping on the BEST/NTS stuff.


Care to explain why?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

John, is not a matter of US archers, only. Also all Europeans are behind all Asians. Getting in Shanghai at the beginning of the outdoor season, at least for us, is just for training as there were no hopes to make result there. World champs are at the end of September in Europe, anyhow, and situation (I hope) will be different. 

Compound situation is definitely changed in Korea since 2011. In 2009 they made a good women team for the World Champs in Ulsan, training for around 6 months some "second choice" recurve women, and they got the Silver medal loosing to Russia in the final.
But men team at that time was made by semi-amateur archers, and result was poor. 
At 2011 FITA congress in Tourin, Korea representatives openly told around that they were going to push compound too, as Compound was announced to be in the program of the Asian Games, and for them, Asian games were just behind Olympics in national relevance. So, since them it seems that the Business teams have started funding Compound Professional archers in a system similar to the one they have for Recurve archers since 1984. 
We all knew for years that was not a matter of if, but only a matter of when.
When is now.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Perhaps it's time for compound and barebow to enter the Olympic events too.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Perhaps it's time for compound and barebow to enter the Olympic events too.


Barebow? Hard to do. Pun intended in both shooting barebow (I hunt that way) and in getting the event into the Olympics.

Compound? Far easier, as long as it's introduction in the Asian Games, the World Games, and other venues (I don't think it's part of the Commonweath Games this cycle) works well, we may see it eventually get into the Olympics....providing some other sport is willing to cough up spots so that the IOC's maximum athlete cap isn't exceeded.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sorry Bigjono, but nobody wants to see barebow archers shoot, besides barebow archers. And I are one... ha, ha.

But yes, it is certainly time for the compounds to be allowed into the Olympic games. If they are going to have 4 types of cycling sports, we can and should at least have two archery diciplines.

Something I've wondered for many years is how long Olympic style archery would survive if it were no longer used in the Olympics. I mean, what other reason, besides being associated with, or competing for, the Olympics, does one have to slap a clicker, sight and stabilizer on a traditional recurve bow? 

Out in the "real" world, you never see Olympic recurves. Only traditional hunting bows and compounds.

I digress, but it's something I've wondered for many years.

Vittorio, I'm sure you are correct in that Korea will become a compound powerhouse soon. It will be most interesting to see what companies choose to support them with equipment.

John


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Sorry Bigjono, but nobody wants to see barebow archers shoot, besides barebow archers. And I are one... ha, ha.
> 
> But yes, it is certainly time for the compounds to be allowed into the Olympic games. If they are going to have 4 types of cycling sports, we can and should at least have two archery diciplines.
> 
> ...


Lol, I think barebow would be more interesting to Joe public as its a pure form of the sport that doesn't rely on gadgets and gimmicks to make the archers look good


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Out in the "real" world, you never see Olympic recurves. Only traditional hunting bows and compounds.


Maybe in US, but not in europe.....oly recurve is still rulling clubs/comps over here....


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Lol, I think barebow would be more interesting to Joe public as its a pure form of the sport that doesn't rely on gadgets and gimmicks to make the archers look good


No....to be pure, you have to have bow made yourself from a tree you seeded.... ;-)


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

My only concern of coupounds in the Olympics would be that it could potentially lead to death of the Olympic style recurve.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

With my personal bias cheerfully acknowledged, 1344 and 29 Xs for 7th puts _one_ US recurver in the top ten at least.


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## TheRohBoat (Sep 4, 2012)

> Care to explain why?


Sure. You may possible start an argument between NTSists and those who don't use NTS. 

I feel like many people attribute the US's success in the past few years to NTS. And though the coach has a great influence on success, in the end it's up to the athlete to put his or her head down and work his rear end off. It is all about practice. I am trained to use the NTS method of shooting, but do I see this as a silver bullet to guaranteeing success? No. (I am not saying that our RA's do not practice enough, just that the Koreans and other nations may be going through more rigorous training regimes than they do in the United States.) I understand that many of the top shooters that don't use NTS (I don't need to list them for you) use many (or some) principals that are in NTS, and that NTS is not an incompatible method with other techniques. So therefore I believe any pro-NTS or anti-NTS argument can be discounted.

I'd also like to chime in on the equipment Ellison was shooting. If anyone else has noticed, he has gone through a lot of changes. I have noticed:
-Went from stiff blades to regular blades
-Went from HPX to RX, then to Ion-x
-Used a short extender, then no extender for the olympics, then a long extender
-I can't tell but he changes his stab weights up a lot

Perhaps he's trying to find the right combo


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

for the compound guys, is it all 50m?


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

I have said this before. We should put our money into developing recurve archers not national coaches. All USA archers should be funded in international matches. Ever here this "too many chiefs and not enough indians"


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Anyone ever wondered why compounds (more consitently accurate...fewer variables) are shot from a shorter distance? I know its a smaller target but the MOA can't be that much different between a 40cm face at 50m and a 122cm face at 70m. It just seems strange that 50m was selected for compounds...its almost like they want someone to shoot a perfect round....something that is still has not been done with a recurve. 

In my opinion....(keep in mind, I shoot both) shouldn't it be tougher for compounds since there inherantly easier to shoot more consistantly....perhaps something like a 40cm face at 70m? Just a thought....I think it would bring them more in line with recurve shooters as far as scoring pace and level of difficulty. I've even wondered why something like the Vegas Shoot (for compound) hasn't been changed up in a way that a max score is not possible...or would win without a shoot off. Maybe I'm crazy....I don't know. Sure would love to hear some other opinions....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

When a sport like squash is not in the olympics its hard to conceive of compounds being allowed in especially since it has far less international popularity and is seen as another medal event for the USA. The USA -where athletes actually choose the sport they compete in-will always have issue with covering less popular or less lucrative sports that countries who cannot compete against us in "gene pool" events (like sprinting events in track) can put a lot of money in "soft" sports like archery and win medals. There are probably 50-100 people or more in the USA who has as much or more talent than some of the people on the Olympic archery team but have never shot archery. They are playing professional golf or shooting pool or bowling etc. In the USA its often a matter of luck that a Darrell Pace or a Brady Ellison is introduced to archery.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, let's get some facts straight if we're going to discuss this intelligently...

Compound archers shoot a 6-ring 80cm face at 50M, as per World Archery rules. 

From what I understand, the change came from World Archery in an effort to differentiate the two styles for consideration as an Olympic sport. Like it or not, understand it or not, it is what it is. One format is not "harder" or "easier" unless they are directly competing with one another. So long as all the archers of the same dicipline are shooting the same format, it is equally "hard" to win either one.



> My only concern of coupounds in the Olympics would be that it could potentially lead to death of the Olympic style recurve.


Which is exactly why I ask the question about how long the Olympic bow would live if it wasn't hooked up to the Olympic life support system... I think even in Europe, it would eventually fall by the wayside and barebow and compound would take over.

The Olympic recurve today is a strange hybrid. It was created at a time when it WAS the most advanced bow available (pre-compound) and the natural progression of the sport of archery. It made sense then for the best archers to be shooting finely made, long target recurves with sights, clickers and stabilizers. 

But since the advent and later evolution of the compound to what it is today, the OR is a relic of a former time that IMO only hangs on because of it's connection to the Olympic games, and for no other practical reason.

But again, I digress...


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## Houngan (Oct 19, 2007)

I'm the weird sort of duck that likes accuracy games, but thinks compound is too firearm-like. I'm also one of two people in the whole city that shoots an olympic recurve and is over 20.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Taylor Worth gutted the Americans - Butch and then Brady in succession.

Was Taylor the guy that knocked Brady out of the Olympics last summer?


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, let's get some facts straight if we're going to discuss this intelligently...
> 
> Compound archers shoot a 6-ring 80cm face at 50M, as per World Archery rules.
> 
> ...


I knew that my numbers were off so thank you for correcting me....and I agree with you that the OR is a relic. It's a niche dicipline with a very niche group of followers. It's also in my opinion a good test of archery skill...if it wasn't hard everyone would be doing it .

So let's post this question. If compound is accpeted as an Olympic event, and OR dies a slow and painful death as a result, do you think the compound event will evolve into a more difficult contest? Does anything forsee FITA as a whole become less popular worldwide (and especially in the states) in favor of field and 3d competitions and indoor spots or is long range outdoor target here to stay, no matter what the bow of choice is?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

baller said:


> I knew that my numbers were off so thank you for correcting me....and I agree with you that the OR is a relic. It's a niche dicipline with a very niche group of followers. It's also in my opinion a good test of archery skill...if it wasn't hard everyone would be doing it .
> 
> So let's post this question. If compound is accpeted as an Olympic event, and OR dies a slow and painful death as a result, do you think the compound event will evolve into a more difficult contest? Does anything forsee FITA as a whole become less popular worldwide (and especially in the states) in favor of field and 3d competitions and indoor spots or is long range outdoor target here to stay, no matter what the bow of choice is?


Who knows. The OR was introduced to the games in '72 and here it is 2013 and we're still using it. I'll probably be long gone before we see another form of archery in the Olympic games besides the current OR and the compound. And that's fine with me. Sometimes, timeless traditions are nice to keep around.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Something else to keep in mind is that the sooner the international playing field is leveled for compound archers, the sooner the sport will be accepted in the Olympics. So although it may be to the detriment of individual archers, better international competition may translate into them being able to represent their country in the Olympic games someday.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Maybe in US, but not in europe.....oly recurve is still rulling clubs/comps over here....


Good point but I think barebow is still more popular than freestyle in Europe, it's just the Far East where Oly style rules.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

John do you see any measurable growth in youth interest in OR in your area? We have a small but dedicated group of OR JOAD shooters around here but I don't know how long they will stick with it past their early teens.


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

baller said:


> John do you see any measurable growth in youth interest in OR in your area? We have a small but dedicated group of OR JOAD shooters around here but I don't know how long they will stick with it past their early teens.


It happens in our area as well. We seems to have more kids interested in OR recently.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The newer youth are mostly wanting to shoot barebow. Why? Because that's what they shoot in the movies. NOBODY in the movies shoots an Olympic recurve. Nobody. They either shoot barebow (usually traditional bows) or compound. Period. 

That fact right there should tell us something.

The kids who shoot barebow often switch to OR because they see that's where the competition is going and the JOAD program has always been OR-centric. But with the new barebow JOAD divisions and achievement system, we may see a shift there, or at least more balance between the three diciplines. 

Most of the kids who do shoot OR do it because they either 1) think they want to try out for the Olympics someday, 2) just want to shoot the same kind of bow they see the Olympic archers shooting, or 3) it's what their coach put in their hands.

I highly doubt that a single new JOAD or 4-H archer would choose the OR if it were not an Olympic sport. Highly doubt it. They would either shoot barebow recurve or compound. 

Look at 3-D shoots - the most popular form of outdoor archery in the U.S. It's nearly impossible to find a division for an OR. It's either traditional/barebow or compound.

Is that because of the connection that archery has with hunting here in the U.S.? Maybe. But other than Olympic competition, what purpose is there for using an OR bow? Compounds are clearly more suited to precision target competition, and barebow is clearly more of an opportunity for one archer to test themselves against another without equipment being factored into the equation.

Not sure how we got off on this tangent however! ha, ha.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, let's get some facts straight if we're going to discuss this intelligently...
> 
> Compound archers shoot a 6-ring 80cm face at 50M, as per World Archery rules.
> 
> ...


I think the Olympic recurve style touches people's primal/romantic eye in a way that compound does not (perhaps because at its core it's still just a stick and a string - the Robin Hood factor). It's visually physical enough to be engaging to the spectator/practitioner, and accurate enough at distance to have the 'wow' factor, too.

I've always likened the appeal of Olympic archery to oval racing in Indy cars. The elegant equipment form (and recurve archer at full draw) is beautiful in a way that is timeless, and there is something mesmerizing about the 'visual' pursuit of perfect repetition.

Like the Indy Car, perhaps the Olympic rig doesn't serve any broader purpose than the one it's featured in. But with some ponies, if they're beautiful and interesting enough, one trick can be enough.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, the traditional barebow is more primal/romantic (which is why so many kids are coming to me and other JOAD coaches wanting to shoot barebow right now) and the compound is more precise. The OR is a compromise at best that was totally overtaken by the compound in the target world in the late 70's. By the early 80's there was no reason other than the Olympics for anyone to continue to use them, and in fact, many of our top OR archers went on to have very successful target compound careers.

As for the appeal and form - barebow has it beat. 

Again, without the connection to the Olympics, it would have died a sudden death in the 80's I think. In fact, I'd say that without the success of our U.S. Olympic archers early on, it probably would have died here in the U.S. in the 80's.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lksseven said:


> Was Taylor the guy that knocked Brady out of the Olympics last summer?


yes.


Chris


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

lksseven said:


> Taylor Worth gutted the Americans - Butch and then Brady in succession.
> 
> Was Taylor the guy that knocked Brady out of the Olympics last summer?


And in Ogden the tournament prior to that...


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## barking mad (Oct 17, 2006)

Bigjono said:


> Good point but I think barebow is still more popular than freestyle in Europe, it's just the Far East where Oly style rules.


From personal experience, I'd say that at least in Northern Europe barebow is, despite some great successes, quite marginal.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

barking mad said:


> From personal experience, I'd say that at least in Northern Europe barebow is, despite some great successes, quite marginal.


Europe's got a north, wow, I never knew that. Do they wear cheap track suits and talk funny like the northerners in England


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Larry, the traditional barebow is more primal/romantic (which is why so many kids are coming to me and other JOAD coaches wanting to shoot barebow right now) and the compound is more precise. The OR is a compromise at best that was totally overtaken by the compound in the target world in the late 70's. By the early 80's there was no reason other than the Olympics for anyone to continue to use them, and in fact, many of our top OR archers went on to have very successful target compound careers.
> 
> As for the appeal and form - barebow has it beat.
> 
> Again, without the connection to the Olympics, it would have died a sudden death in the 80's I think. In fact, I'd say that without the success of our U.S. Olympic archers early on, it probably would have died here in the U.S. in the 80's.


Well, not arguing here, just conversing/exploring an interesting topic (from a more general perpective than the Olympic Games angle): I readily agree that barebow is the more primal symbol, and is indeed appealing. Surely a lot of the "kids coming in wanting to shoot barebow" phenomenon is hugely influenced by 'wanting to shoot what Catniss shot'? As for 'more' appeal (spectator) than recurve, I disagree - the barebow doesn't have the accuracy 'at distance' to make some people go 'wow'. The recurve does. And the recurve, while at its core a simple bow made of a stick and a string, has some extra stuff on it that I think is inherently visually arresting/intriguing to a lot of people, in a way that a barebow is not - again, like an Indy car that is at its core a 'car', but has some extra stuff on it (front wings, rear wing, intake port above the driver head, open wheel) that is inherently visually arresting/intriguing in a way that a Nascar race car is not. 

And yes, a compound by the nature of the tools utilized to execute the shot, is more precise than a recurve (in the same way that bench rifle shooting is more precise than a compound). But while the resulting accuracy is greater than a recurve, it's a viscerally less connected endeavor with much less in common with the barebow than is the recurve. I'm always curious how many non-archers pick up on that instinctively when they're watching. 

When you say "The OR is a compromise at best ..." I would suggest that 'the OR is compromise '_*at*_ its best'.

In any case, I hope I don't outlive either Olympic Recurve or the Indy 500, one trick ponies though they may be.


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## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

the problem with youth bare bow or compound shooters because of movies etc, is not a us problem. all countries have to deal with this "hunger-games-phenomenom" 

second, the ksl-effect is over. same on other sports - the competing countries analyse, adapt and catch up or take over.

third, maybe a personal opinion, but i never figured out what was going on with ksl and his students after practicing. heard some curious things about his addictive religion thing.
and oddly enough, all top shooters under his aegis married the last two years (and maybe getting new priorities).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> all top shooters under his aegis married the last two years (and maybe getting new priorities).


Folks, we may have a winner here...! LOL!


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## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

err?


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## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

deleted


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think you missed my point Poldi. 

I was agreeing that being a newlywed certainly will change someone's priorities.


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## Poldi (Mar 3, 2012)

ahh - sorry john! 
it's late night in europe at this time...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> ... However, I still can't get over how ironic it is that 75% (or more) of the international podium placements are earned by compound archers, who aren't even allowed to compete in the Olympics, and for years were given short shrift by the NAA/USArchery.
> 
> ...
> Time to start really rewarding our compound archers according to their achievements, I think. When nearly every time we see an announcement that "U.S. Archers in medal matches" ends up being about our compound archers, we should make sure they are at least as well supported as our recurve archers, period.
> ...


Same thing in Canada. Recurve archers heavily supported, and despite a couple of good archers, have produced almost nothing past a first-round elimination. But 2 of the last 3 male compound World Target Champions (Trillus and Perkins) and a #1 ranked female compound (Wallace) in 2010, and virtually squat in support from the national association and federal government.

You learn to live with it...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You learn to live with it...


Yea, but it doesn't hurt to make sure they get the "extra" credit they deserve every now and then, when usually all we hear about are the male recurve archers...

Sometimes, I wonder if it doesn't serve as extra motivation for the compounders, actually.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Pls note that in Shanghai also all Korean Compound teams are in the finals. It means, ALL 6 KOREAN TEAMS are in the finals.

We can continue to discuss about stile of shooting, to hire best coaches from other countries and to analize movies effect on children. But then, when it goes to the real game, Korea knows how to handle it and Korea only has the right environment to win forever, independently from type of bow, sex, age and religion. Someone really think that if Bare Bow goes tot the Olympic Games, Korea wil not start to dominate immediately Bare Bow too? Pls .....


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Good point but I think barebow is still more popular than freestyle in Europe, it's just the Far East where Oly style rules.


Not sure where you live, but not true in majority of Europe......actually barebow is very small.....


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> Pls note that in Shanghai also all Korean Compound teams are in the finals. It means, ALL 6 KOREAN TEAMS are in the finals.
> 
> We can continue to discuss about stile of shooting, to hire best coaches from other countries and to analize movies effect on children. But then, when it goes to the real game, Korea knows how to handle it and Korea only has the right environment to win forever, independently from type of bow, sex, age and religion. Someone really think that if Bare Bow goes tot the Olympic Games, Korea wil not start to dominate immediately Bare Bow too? Pls .....


Exactly.....

Yes USA, Canada, UK and western europe compouds archers are winning much more then their recurve team mates......but the only reason is that asia did not bother with compound yet....not till now....

If compound will be the oly bow in future, exactly the same nations will winning the comps again.......


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Not sure where you live, but not true in majority of Europe......actually barebow is very small.....


Both in the UK and here in Canada FS is a very limited class. People who shoot it tend to shoot only that whereas BB archers generally shoot other styles as well.
I like Olympic recurve but many see it as too geeky to be cool and the cost of a competitive rig is high too.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Both in the UK and here in Canada FS is a very limited class. People who shoot it tend to shoot only that whereas BB archers generally shoot other styles as well.
> I like Olympic recurve but many see it as too geeky to be cool and the cost of a competitive rig is high too.


Well I live in UK.....majority of target comps are oly recurve, then compound and then longbow.....and you have 1 or 2 BB.....and I'm talking about comps 150+ competitors....


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Well I live in UK.....majority of target comps are oly recurve, then compound and then longbow.....and you have 1 or 2 BB.....and I'm talking about comps 150+ competitors....


From limited exposure, in Ireland for target competition I would say OR, then compound, then BB. That's FITA style target.

For FITA field, going by a recent competition, all three categories were about equal.

For IFAA field competition, I think BB in it's bowhunter and barebow forms would be more dominant but I can't give places.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

I think it's time to face the facts I told about the results of a national competition held in Korea. lets put this into perspective if you can shoot 1300 on a gents Fita in the US and Europe you will be viewed as elite in Korea at this national competition you would be ranked *135th!!!!!!!!!* 

The gap between east and west is still massive looking at the results of the Fita ranking round at the world cup in Shanghai this week the nearest westerner was 15 points off the score of the top three archers all Korean I might add and all shooting 1356+ scores, 1st place shot a 1371.

Archers in the west are not good enough yet the gap is closing and I know Brady has shot good scores that can match what has been shot this week but it's keeping that level thats the hard part. I also can see the Koreans have raised there game to keep ahead as well.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

DWAA Archer said:


> I think it's time to face the facts I told about the results of a national competition held in Korea. lets put this into perspective if you can shoot 1300 on a gents Fita in the US and Europe you will be viewed as elite in Korea at this national competition you would be ranked *135th!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> The gap between east and west is still massive looking at the results of the Fita ranking round at the world cup in Shanghai this week the nearest westerner was 15 points off the score of the top three archers all Korean I might add and all shooting 1356+ scores, 1st place shot a 1371.
> 
> Archers in the west are not good enough yet the gap is closing and I know Brady has shot good scores that can match what has been shot this week but it's keeping that level thats the hard part. I also can see the Koreans have raised there game to keep ahead as well.


true, that is the most important sport (along with TKD and table tennis in Korea)

how many Koreans are going to dunk on LeBron James?

beat the USA in a 4X400 sprint relay

outswim our gold medalists

Ace Serena Williams

its all a matter of perspective

I see it amazing that our archery men's team beat Korea last year in London

in terms of our country's priorities when it comes to sport that would be like Korea's track team beating the US 4X400 track relay team or their basketball team taking down the Miami Heat


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

..... and the Netherlands recurve teams stop both the mens and womens teams. The us mixed team carries on though!


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I'm sure they all did their best, and I'm proud of all our recurve archers. However, I still can't get over how ironic it is that 75% (or more) of the international podium placements are earned by compound archers, who aren't even allowed to compete in the Olympics, and for years were given short shrift by the NAA/USArchery.
> 
> Does anyone know whether the compound teams in Shanghai were even funded this time by USArchery, or are they there, once again, on their own nickel?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your open support, John. It's quite difficult being the ugly stepchild (compound shooter) of the archery world...
~Gail


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## SteveID (May 6, 2008)

Steve and I had a small discussion about this yesterday on his FB page. Do people really believe that Koreans are going to eventually dominate compound like they are currently dominating recurve? 

We are already finding the ceiling in compound. Guys shooting 710+ @ 50M doesn't leave a lot of room for anybody to make a big jump on the competition. 

I don't compete in recurve, but it seems to me that when a great score still leaves 100 points on the board, then there is a good bit of room for somebody, somewhere to find a way to do it exponentially better than everybody else. The ceiling is much higher.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gail, 

I'm just pointing out what I feel should be pretty obvious. But for some reason, we don't talk about it much. There are sacred cows in this sport that I guess we're not supposed to talk about.

Whatever.

I have spent enough time around our top compounders over the years that I know how hard they work, how professional they are, how dedicated they are and how GOOD they are. I would dare to say there aren't 5 of our top 20 recurvers that put the same amount of skin in the game that our top 10 compounders have for many years now.

In an ironic twist though, being self-funded does give them some amount of freedom that our recurvers simply do not have.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

So, is the Zero Hour for Korean compound archery? The women's team just won the Gold over our ladies...


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

edgerat said:


> So, is the Zero Hour for Korean compound archery? The women's team just won the Gold over our ladies...


No, it was a bit of a gimme. Our top compound ladies, sadly, do not yet have the same level of "grit" as our top male squad. Gotta learn to stop "shooting like a girl" and just shoot the machine....


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Gail,
> 
> I'm just pointing out what I feel should be pretty obvious. But for some reason, we don't talk about it much. There are sacred cows in this sport that I guess we're not supposed to talk about.
> 
> ...


John

They are also just flat out good archers. When I was getting ready for indoor I spent more time looking at tape of Reo than I did Brady or Jake. I'd be willing to beat if you put an Oly bow in any of the top compound guys hands they would light it up.

Brady was a top compound shooter long before he ever touched a recurve. 

Matt


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

DWAA Archer said:


> I think it's time to face the facts I told about the results of a national competition held in Korea. lets put this into perspective if you can shoot 1300 on a gents Fita in the US and Europe you will be viewed as elite in Korea at this national competition you would be ranked *135th!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> The gap between east and west is still massive looking at the results of the Fita ranking round at the world cup in Shanghai this week the nearest westerner was 15 points off the score of the top three archers all Korean I might add and all shooting 1356+ scores, 1st place shot a 1371.
> 
> Archers in the west are not good enough yet the gap is closing and I know Brady has shot good scores that can match what has been shot this week but it's keeping that level thats the hard part. I also can see the Koreans have raised there game to keep ahead as well.


One of the really interesting attributes of Rick McKinney when I've seen him speak to a group is his love of winning. He'd have that great big smile on his face and a light in his eyes just talking about his experiences and how much he loved to win. He also talked a lot about his rivalry with Daryl Pace, so I'm guessing that he really like competing as well -- just not as much as winning. I'll bet that an attitude like that really helps one raise their game. I can't imagine the Koreans doing as well as they are without a similar love for the sport.


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> In the world cup individual events in Shanghai...
> 
> I feel like I've seen this movie before.
> 
> ...


Lucky the US men didn't have to shoot against the Korean compounders ;-). 

-R&B


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Matt_Potter said:


> John
> 
> They are also just flat out good archers. When I was getting ready for indoor I spent more time looking at tape of Reo than I did Brady or Jake. I'd be willing to beat if you put an Oly bow in any of the top compound guys hands they would light it up.
> 
> ...


I doubt anyone would (could reasonably) charge that top compounders aren't good archers. 

But to your bet that top compounders could grab an Oly rig and 'light it up' - 1) if that's true, why do the vast majority decline to do so? And 2) while world champion compounder Braden Gellenthein is to be applauded for 'grabbing an Oly rig' and participating in the 2011 Olympic Trials Stage 1, he finished 51st.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Learning a good finger release is probably the largest obstacle to switching from compound to recurve and lighting it up. The difference is a pretty big deal.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I'd be willing to beat if you put an Oly bow in any of the top compound guys hands they would light it up.


Reo told me he trained at the OTC for recurve once upon a time. 

Dave told me he tried OR but the best he could ever do was a 324 average at 70 meters, so he went back to compound.

What matters is that they have perfected their craft. Be it Reo, Dave, Roger, Braden or the 5 or 6 other top male compounders from the U.S. that just show up and shoot GREAT without celebrity coaches (that I have ever seen), USOC support, or the attention of the USArchery machine.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Always looking for an excuse to trot this picture out  FWIW, Braden finishing 51st at Olympic trials sure sounds like a pretty impressive showing for someone that just grabs an Oly rig and goes to the trials.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

LongTime said:


> I have said this before. We should put our money into developing recurve archers not national coaches.


The more qualified coaches that we have out there the greater the chance that we will have skilled archers in the pipeline. What we need is a comprehensive national High School and College program to identify and train young atheletes. If we had the funding and organization that football, basketball and Lacrosse has we could dominate archery for years to come. 

TAO


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The more qualified coaches that we have out there the greater the chance that we will have skilled archers in the pipeline.


Not sure I completely agree with this. Coaches can only take any archer so far. Eventually, they have to figure out how to win on their own.



> What we need is a comprehensive national High School and College program to identify and train young atheletes.


And that is how they figure it out. By having opportunities to shoot in their most critical years of development.

I've said for many years now that USArchery has missed an opportunity by NOT recruiting college athletes who have lost their scholarship in other sports. We need archers who KNOW how to compete if we are to be competitive. They don't have to learn that on the archery field. Most of the best archery competitors learned to compete on the soccer field, baseball or softball diamond, in the pool or tennis court, etc. So often, I see archery as a kind of safe "sanctuary" sport for those who are afraid of serious competition. Whether that be the parents, or the child.


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

Brady & Khatuna take Gold in Shanghai in my fav event, the mixed team


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

medals in Shanghai:

CO: 
6 USA 
4 KOR 
2 ITA 
1 DEN 
1 IND 
1 RUS 

America 6 
Asia 5 
Europe 3 
Oceania 0 
Africa not competing

RE
7 KOR 
2 IND 
1 JAP 
1 TPE 
1 CHN 
1 UKR 
1 USA 
1 FRA 

Asia 12 
Europe 2 
America 1 
Oceania 0 
Africa not competing

Overall:
KOR 11
USA 7
IND 3
ITA 2
1 DEN 
1 RUS 
1 JAP 
1 TPE 
1 CHN 
1 UKR 
1 FRA 

Asia 17
America 7
Europe 5
Oceania 0
Africa not competing

Trend is clear and situation is even more in favour of Korea and Asia in general than it was in the past. 

Korea is following in compound the same path for domination they have followed for recurve. They have been almost immediately competitive in women, while for men they had to work for some years more. 

Few words about Africa. Apart from South Africa and Namibia for Compound and Egypt (and Ivory Coast) for recurve, at present there are not good level archers around, yet. But they have an incredible potential, only limited by there own lack of focus on sport development program (any sport apart football). 
Anyhopw, after watching their situation at African champs last year, I can easily forecast that from World Champs 2015 we will see also some few recurve shooters from Africa becoming competitive.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Coaches can only take any archer so far. Eventually, they have to figure out how to win on their own.


Very true!

Coaches are needed to identify and support the archers that are willing to to put in the effort to succeed. Just having talent isn't enough, it's the will to win and the comittment to invest the effort necessary to do so. 

TAO


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Coaches are needed to identify and support the archers that are willing to to put in the effort to succeed.


In some cases yes, but those individuals usually self-identify (the one's willing to put in the effort) and I've seen my share of inept coaches cut short the career of very talented young archers too.

Above all else, a true love of archery and a love of competition MUST be present. Coach or not, talent or not. Those are the common demoninators among all top archers.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I've seen my share of inept coaches cut short the career of very talented young archers too.


All too true.

Chris V.


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## Gryffin du Verd (May 20, 2013)

My daughter is ten, and is only interested in barebow. She has a sight and stab, but refuses to use them. She's never seen Hunger Games and wasn't too impressed with Brave, so in this case, Hollywood hasn't had that big of an influence. She was introduced to archery in Girl Scouts and begged us to get her a bow for Christmas. She was really interested in the Olympics, but has pretty much given up on that (which is a shame), as she's just not interested in all the "hardware". She is in JOAD and shoots almost as well as the Olympic recurve kids (which is amazing), but I think she is a little frustrated, particularly since the vast majority of the kids in her class do compound. This actually may end up killing her interest in archery -- I can see the early signs. The situation isn't helped by the fact that one of the JOAD instructors actually said, "Okay, how many of you are still using recurve?" as though only beginners use recurve, then "graduate" to compound. It was just a slip of the tongue, but telling nonetheless.

As for me, I admit that I only shoot Olympic recurve because, well, I dream of the Olympics. I strongly agree with the idea of having in the Olympics both compound (for ultra-accuracy competitions) and barebow (for strength and "natural" ability -- sorry can't think of a better way to say that; "unassisted" maybe?). If that were the case, I'd shoot nothing but barebow, but as it stands now, I just don't like to lose...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> but has pretty much given up on that (which is a shame), as she's just not interested in all the "hardware". She is in JOAD and shoots almost as well as the Olympic recurve kids (which is amazing)


I've seen this many times now. My own daughter Amanda was a member of the "sightless recurve girls" - what they called themselves - a group of young ladies who shot only barebow in the Southern Illinois JOAD club. All of them eventually quit JOAD because there simply was no recognition for barebow archers in the program. 

Recently, I've seen it over and over again - almost always girls, but every now and then a "purist" comes along who is a boy. 

Thankfully, JOAD is starting to accommodate barebow archers. Here in Texas, we've always had a barebow division for JOAD archers in our state events. There are state records and state champions for barebow down to the bowman level.

We now are implementing barebow achievement scores in our awards matrix for JOAD. 

I'm just waiting on USArchery to finalize the barebow matrix and print up some barebow lanyards for the JOAD kids. We already have them for adult archers in the Adult Achievement program.

That is real progress. 

Unfortunately it sounds like you may have a coach who is not so progressive. That's too bad, but I would tell you that as her parent, it's on YOUR shoulders to keep her in the sport. Depending on volunteer coaches like myself is not at all wise. So find another JOAD program if the one you're in is not working out for you. This happens more often than you may think. And let that girl shoot barebow and earn her achievement pins with that style. Encourage her to shoot field archery, where World Archery recognizes barebow and it is highly regarded, on equal footing with compound and recurve.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> medals in Shanghai:
> 
> Overall:
> 
> ...


Somewhat striking statistics. However maybe a little unfair as Korea is the only really professional archery nation in the group. Remove Korea and the numbers become very evenly spread between the archery regions. If European archery was at the same professional competitive level as say football then the numbers would be very different. Can't see any European country producing a domestic league of any quality so maybe the route is to upgrade the European championship and Grand Prix systems.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Uh, I'm pretty sure Italy and the U.S. have a few "professional archers" as well. They're certainly not amateurs. It's just that the numbers are so out of balance.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

this "remove korea......." reasoning is ridiculous to even bring up...

it only emphasizes their perceived 
/real dominance of the sport and acknowledges the weaknesses of the other countries..


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Uh, I'm pretty sure Italy and the U.S. have a few "professional archers" as well. They're certainly not amateurs. It's just that the numbers are so out of balance.


By professional I was referring to the environment. With football you have strong competitive leagues at both national and European level. Without this environment no individual, however talented is going to reach the same level. My guess is that US baseball players are the best in the world - but the reason isn't to do with the individuals but mainly with the competitive system. In the UK we do not have a competitive archery system at club or regional level, competition starts with the national squad  and then apart from Worlds and Olympics no competitive system. Not surprising we win very little apart from the exceptional individuals like Alison Williamson who achieve something despite the environment. The Koreans operate a similar league system in archery as football in the say Italy, not surprising they are always going to be the best.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

For me, and I am sure for others as well, I am not able to make it to any of the national events mostly because I cannot afford a week off of work and travel costs to either coast....it just doesn't work for me, so I stick with events that I can get to by car within an 8 hour drive on a weekend.


Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried a national archery league in the US? The IBO and ASA seem to be doing fairly decent, why not a spin off on outdoor target? Could even have an indoor season like world cup does. Thoughts?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

baller said:


> Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried a national archery league in the US? The IBO and ASA seem to be doing fairly decent, why not a spin off on outdoor target? Could even have an indoor season like world cup does. Thoughts?


I think that what the indoor mail in tournaments are for.... 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Joe, I understand what you're saying. One could not expect a country like France to compete with the U.S. in American Football, for example. It stands to reason. We are not "training" our young archers in a truly competitive environment and rarely do even our professional archers experience a truly competitive environment where there is any question whether they will finish in the top 4 or 8 at any U.S. event. 

The shallow competitive pool of archers in countries like ours works against us in two ways. First, they are not concerned with being beaten on a daily basis, and second, there is so little competition for program or corporate support that the same few archers get supported year after year, only furthering the problem.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

edgerat said:


> Always looking for an excuse to trot this picture out  FWIW, Braden finishing 51st at Olympic trials sure sounds like a pretty impressive showing for someone that just grabs an Oly rig and goes to the trials.


Looks like Braden had some down time in Antalya judging by the photo either that or he likes to do his recurve training in Turkey


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried a national archery league in the US? The IBO and ASA seem to be doing fairly decent, why not a spin off on outdoor target? Could even have an indoor season like world cup does. Thoughts?


Couple of times. Look up the history of the old PAA - professional archers assn.

For target events, the NFAA is the closest thing we have, and even then, pretty well only for compounders (and gee, ironically it's our compounders that still dominate internationally... maybe there is something to this after all !  )

In Texas, we have started a statewide outdoor target series (Texas Outdoor Target Series, or "TOTS"). In the U.S., we have the USAT series outdoor target events. But a group of archers could not make a living on that series without substantial USOC and corporate support.

Who knows. As archery gains popularity, maybe something like the PAA will make a comeback.


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## Houngan (Oct 19, 2007)

Joe T said:


> By professional I was referring to the environment. With football you have strong competitive leagues at both national and European level. Without this environment no individual, however talented is going to reach the same level. My guess is that US baseball players are the best in the world - but the reason isn't to do with the individuals but mainly with the competitive system. In the UK we do not have a competitive archery system at club or regional level, competition starts with the national squad  and then apart from Worlds and Olympics no competitive system. Not surprising we win very little apart from the exceptional individuals like Alison Williamson who achieve something despite the environment. The Koreans operate a similar league system in archery as football in the say Italy, not surprising they are always going to be the best.


Exactly. Most of the U.S. doesn't have access to any form of target archery except 3D. I'm going crazy trying to find something to do with my recurve besides take the sight off and shoot at fake animals.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Get the American trad guys to lose their attitudes concerning aiming methods and we will have a pool a pool of talent that is tens of thousands of archers deep. There are a lot of crap shooters in the trad ranks but some truly great competitors out there as well. If the trad ranks aspired towards accuracy instead of the latest g.fred asbell fashion statement we might see a huge movement. Starting Olympic archery as a mediocre trad shooter at best I can say that learning to use a sight and shoot an Olympic rig helped my longbow shooting more than anything else I'd ever done. With the latest trends towards ILF and metal risers growing in traditional archery and a lot of the information being presented to the trad rank and file, I think there is a chance for high level shooters to emerge from the stick and string ranks. Btw (to any trad guys reading this) you don't have to hang up your long bow and back quiver just because you put a sight on a bow


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

ryan b. said:


> Get the American trad guys to lose their attitudes concerning aiming methods and we will have a pool a pool of talent that is tens of thousands of archers deep. There are a lot of crap shooters in the trad ranks but some truly great competitors out there as well. If the trad ranks aspired towards accuracy instead of the latest g.fred asbell fashion statement we might see a huge movement. Starting Olympic archery as a mediocre trad shooter at best I can say that learning to use a sight and shoot an Olympic rig helped my longbow shooting more than anything else I'd ever done. With the latest trends towards ILF and metal risers growing in traditional archery and a lot of the information being presented to the trad rank and file, I think there is a chance for high level shooters to emerge from the stick and string ranks. Btw (to any trad guys reading this) you don't have to hang up your long bow and back quiver just because you put a sight on a bow


That's a bit Harsh. The old G Fred followers are just the Trad arrow flingers now. The top iBO, ASA and NFAA guys all shoot with good solid target form, use accurate aiming methods and are every bit as good as their target counterparts.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think you guys are nearly saying the same thing. I was a "G Fred" arrow flinger (although I didn't know who he was, I certainly shot that style) right up until I was introduced to target barebow, then Olympic recurve and without a doubt, those two diciplines helped my traditional hunting accuracy tremendously. 

The attitudes are slowly changing, but honestly, it's a generational thing. Like most change, it's going to take a few funerals before it turns the corner.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I'd also like to see it the other way round. Some of you target guys ditch all the doodads and come shoot some barebow and RU sometimes. I think that would help get people to understand both styles and maybe even widen the appeal of both.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bigjono said:


> I'd also like to see it the other way round. Some of you target guys ditch all the doodads and come shoot some barebow and RU sometimes. I think that would help get people to understand both styles and maybe even widen the appeal of both.


Been there, done that. Finished 3rd in the U.S. in adult men's barebow at Indoor Nationals in 2010 IIRC.

Like I said, shooting OR helps my barebow.

I believe Michael Quayle (member of the 2012 Olympic shadow team) shot U.S. Field Nationals with a barebow last year too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A hearty congratulations is in order for Brady and Khatuna on a big win. Way to show up for the recurvers!


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Bigjono,

Ha! It was a little tongue in cheek.. I was that guy too and can state with certainty that nothing slowed my archery improvement more than reading trad books where they always promote instinctive and poo poo aiming methods (though I see asbell has come around a bit on this one). My point wasnt to smash trad shooters but rather to note that there is a LOT of undeveloped talent in that pool of trad shooters and hunters; lots of big strong and or athletic guys with sports experience and tough mind sets. If we ever have a revolution in recurve target archery I think the guys will come from the trad/hunting rank and file. I'm NOT saying there aren't good trad shooters but most trad shooters ,as a rule,dismiss target archery when ironically they have the most potential to explore it.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Joe T said:


> Somewhat striking statistics. However maybe a little unfair as Korea is the only really professional archery nation in the group. Remove Korea and the numbers become very evenly spread between the archery regions. If European archery was at the same professional competitive level as say football then the numbers would be very different. Can't see any European country producing a domestic league of any quality so maybe the route is to upgrade the European championship and Grand Prix systems.


Joe, you are perfectly right and I have figured out the real problem many years ago... there is no way to get to the level of the Korens by following their methods, as you will never be able to replicate their competitive environment . So, only practical solution was line out and try a more efficient way of shooting recurve, that could optimize the results of the limited human resources we have. ...


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio said:


> Joe, you are perfectly right and I have figured out the real problem many years ago... there is no way to get to the level of the Korens by following their methods, as you will never be able to replicate their competitive environment . So, only practical solution was line out and try a more efficient way of shooting recurve, that could optimize the results of the limited human resources we have. ...



...or hire Korean coaches!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> So, only practical solution was line out and try a more efficient way of shooting recurve, that could optimize the results of the limited human resources we have. ...


You don't mean "Biomechanically efficient" do you...?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> ...or hire Korean coaches!!


As said, totally useless, as you can not provide to the Korean coaches the same environment and the same number of professional archers..
You can count on fingers how many Korean coaches have been successfull (= getting medals at World champs & Olympic games) outside Korea.. may be 4 or 5 in 20 years? How many have tried and have been fired after a couple of years? Several tens ...


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> Joe, you are perfectly right and I have figured out the real problem many years ago... there is no way to get to the level of the Korens by following their methods, as you will never be able to replicate their competitive environment . So, only practical solution was line out and try a more efficient way of shooting recurve, that could optimize the results of the limited human resources we have. ...


Problem there is suppose someone comes up with the archery equivalent of the finsbury flop (IMO unlikely) which is demonstrably superior. Inside one year everyone is using it so you are back to where you started.

Important to realize that their is nothing special about Korean archers or Korean coaches except that Korean coaches are also coming from a professional, competitive environment. Standard of coaching elsewhere is often amateur and not to a very high standard so importing a Korean (or other professional coach) can make sense.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

.....which countries who won medals in the last 4 Olympics did NOT have a Korean coach or consultant at the time they won the medal?....

just curious..


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

ryan b. said:


> but most trad shooters ,as a rule,dismiss target archery when ironically they have the most potential to explore it.


x 10


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not the best question, as so many countries hired a Korean coach that it waters down the results. 

And the other question is how closely did they follow the direction of that coach?


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## Houngan (Oct 19, 2007)

Korean coaches might actually be superior simply because they are exposed and tested in a much larger sample of quality archers. If there's one thing I know for certain, it's that nothing means anything until it's tested in competition and proven out. The coaching environment in Korea is naturally going to be much more competitive than in other countries simply because they have 100x the archers, and thus the top coaches from Korea will be consistently better than other coaches. 

That's not to say that they'll be the best coach, but this is a statistical fact: As excellence increases in any sport the outlying actors begin to concentrate inward, until you have a lower variation between the worst and the best. Some other country might produce the best coach ever as a statistical outlier, but the Koreans will have the best top 10 coaches by a long shot. If you interested in this sort of thing, read "Full House" by Stephen Jay Gould. It's a fascinating statistical analysis of excellence in a variety of sports.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and thus the top coaches from Korea will be consistently better than other coaches.


...for Koreans...

You have to factor in cultural differences to see the whole picture.


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