# The truth on deer pee(estrous)



## archv3 (Sep 6, 2006)

I agree with you about scents. I do think they degrade after some time. I really have not bought scents until last year when I had a buck come down the trail that I walked down. I used Code Blue doe estrous gel. I do not know if this was the reason or not. He did have his nose to the ground the whole time. Code Blue stated that their scents come from one doe and it is supposed to be fresh. So, this year I am not going to use the same scent as I did last year. I am going to go buy some new stuff.


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

Yes, the difference between freshly collected deer urine that is bottled by a deer farmer and the other urines that are not is quite noticeable. If you have every had access to the real stuff you would wonder why anybody buys the mass produced products that are sold by the big companies. These big companies buy deer urine by the gallon from deer farmers across the U.S. and mix it all in a big vat and draw off one ounce bottles and sell it in every Walmart, Bass Pro, Academy and Cabela that will stock it. I some cases these bottles could be 2-3 years old and smell nothing like deer urine when opened. Any company that adds preservatives to ensure a long shelf life also comprises the integrity of the urine and thus changes it's smell.
Also, to make an aerosol takes the addition of chemicals that also change the smell. Hunters wonder why these products booger the deer, it's obvious when to examine these products that they rarely smell like fresh deer urine.
So you ask, where can you get freshly collected deer urine, it's easier than you think. Go on the web and educate yourself there are a few good companies (deer farms) that sell quality deer scents at an affordable price.
Yes, the fresh stuff works better, we get ours from southernwhitetailscents.com-they own thier own deer and add no preservatives!


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

how would you even know if its deer urine? Its not FDA regulated for ingredients, or purity? You don't really have a clue what the [email protected]#$ your buying, unless you are some bonified conesuer(sp?).

Me I'm sticking with what I manufacture, straight from the tap, I got an unlimited supply, and I know the born on date!:wink: Its not estrus though!


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## oldglorynewbie (Oct 17, 2006)

scrapejuice said:


> how would you even know if its deer urine? Its not FDA regulated for ingredients, or purity? You don't really have a clue what the [email protected]#$ your buying, unless you are some bonified conesuer(sp?).


Agreed. I don't believe there are enough "domestic" deer to produce the amount of stuff that is sold. Just because it has four legs does not make it a deer.:wink:


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

I agree. I have a friend who does this as well, he is a sponsor here as a matter of fact. If I remember right, the urine, when kept cold, stays good for about 4 weeks (may be months, cant remember) Anyways, he refuses to sell to stores, only cold shipped straight to the customer. Amazing how different fresh urine smells than the stuff I was using until I met him.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

Why do ya'll find it amazing, The store bought stuff smells no different than going into a portapotty. Both are old and rank. Many stores have a surplus in the store rooms.. From last year..


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## lampasashunter (Mar 2, 2007)

fasst said:


> I agree. I have a friend who does this as well, he is a sponsor here as a matter of fact. If I remember right, the urine, when kept cold, stays good for about 4 weeks (may be months, cant remember) Anyways, he refuses to sell to stores, only cold shipped straight to the customer. Amazing how different fresh urine smells than the stuff I was using until I met him.


What's the name of the friend...I would like to check his site out...if he is a sponsor, it should not be a problem


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

lampasashunter said:


> What's the name of the friend...I would like to check his site out...if he is a sponsor, it should not be a problem


It is in my sig, www.stonycreekwhitetails.com the scents are Sure Draw scents.


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

i noticed that also...vs1 smelled sweet ,,,,way different then 99% of the other stuff...maybe that is why it is crazy priced$$$$$


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

*The real truth!*

Want to know the real truth about doe in heat / estrus urine?

Here it is: What attracts a buck during the breeding phase is what is actually contained in a doe's urine for only a few days. 

1)When a doe is ready to breed she has estrous *pheromones* present in her urine.
2) these *pheromones* naturally dissipate from the urine in a few days.
3) even if you could collect and bottle the urine during this brief window of opportunity, the *pheromones* still naturally dissipate in the bottle and are no longer present in the collected specimen.
4) therefore unless your collected "doe in heat / estrous" urine is a day or two old, the actual estrous pheromones have all but disappeared.

Code blue "standing estrous" - biggest $40 an ounce lie in the industry. *no actual estrous pheromones*

All mass produced bottled urine's are just a bottle of old piss. What animal? No one knows. Actual estrous in the old piss? *Not possible!*


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## bowhuntinjunkie (Aug 22, 2007)

So what about the buck bomb. I have had sucess with it in the past.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

This is a question: Are'nt male & female rabbits called "BUCKS & DOES?"


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Ok, here is my take with no "Marketing Bull"....*

So, you want to know the difference, do ya? Well let me try to explain what I have found over the last 6 years....

On the roof of a buck's mouth is an old factory organ called the vomeronasal organ... this organ is not connected to the sense of smell as it connects to a different area of the brain... As a buck walks along he is constantly licking up samples of urine from both buck and doe and performing a flehman sniff or flehman response...

Now why would this be so important for hunters to know and understand? You got me, but with a little understanding of the reproductive physiology of the doe, it paints a clear picture as to what is really going on....

Doe are seasonally polyestrous animals (short day breeders) whereby they only are capable of breeding in the fall when there is less day length and increased darkness. As the fall equinox settles in on or around September 22nd, there is more darkness in a 24 hour period than there is day light. This triggers the production of a hormone the initiates the start of the estrous cycle in the doe. A doe cycle is 26-28 days in length and is a 2 phase cycle. the first 13-14 days of her estrous cycle is controlled by the reproductive hormone "progesterone". the last 13-14 days of her cycle is controlled by the reproductive hormone "estrogen".

Picture if you will chemical messengers circulating through the blood stream, feeding information from the ovaries back the the hypothalamus located in the brain. The kidneys doing what they are designed to do, filter the chemical ketone's and they ultimatley end up in the urine the doe passes. 

Now as the buck is walking along and sampling urine via a lip curl, he is able to detect the estrogen that starts to show up in the urine at about 14 -16 days into the doe's estrous cycle. Now the buck knows that the doe are approaching "estrus" and the chase phase has begun. 

As the doe are nearing their 24-48 hours of estrus or standing heat, they are peaked at their highest levels of estrogen production, which triggers the behavioral signs of heat. Although the doe is not fully into the corpus luteum phase (ovulation), she is peaked and just about ready to allow the buck to mount her. Just as the estrogen levels start the decrease, the doe is triggered into ovulation by a sudden increase of a hormone called luitinizing hormone = LH. This is the time during the estrous cycle that you see the bucks locked up with a doe and in a few hours the doe will stand and allow the buck to mount her....

Ok, sorry.... got a little off topic there but I swear this long winded explanation has a point... :wink:

Fresh deer urine, when collected and used as a tool, will produce results, period!! Look at deer urine as a animal by-product just as the milk you pour in your coffee each morning or dump on your bowl of favorite cereal. You would not think of going into a store and buying a gallon of milk that has been sitting on the store shelf for months and years on end at room temperature? Heck no you wouldn't.... So why would you buy urine (another animal by-product) that has been sitting on the shelves at room temp for months or years? I don't why either, but millions of dollars are spent each year on old stale urines..

We conducted a ******* test on the urines that we collected from our deer. Here are the results we found..... Using plain old aquatic Ph test strips that you can purchase at wally world, we took two gallons of freshly collected deer urine and compared the results keeping one gallon in the fridge and leaving one gallon sit out at room temp. 

Within 3 days, the gallon that was left to sit out at room temperature had a ph equivalent to ammonia solution, which is a ph Level of 12....

Surprisingly the gallon that was refrigerated hovered at around 7-8 ph for about the first 3 weeks. Just for the record, urine upon being expelled has a normal Ph range of +/- 6.5 to 7.5 depending largely on the diet.... 

From 3 -5 weeks after refrigeration, the Ph level slowly climbed to 9 - 9.5. At around 6 weeks the urine had made it 10 and by the 8th week, the urine had finally reached 12, which again is equivalent to ammonia solution. 

My unofficial findings concluded that by keeping the urine cold, the temperature did not supply the ideal environment for the bacteria to feed and reproduce, just as with the milk, but I surely would not use 8 week old milk in my coffee.... 

Now as for smell, I can attest to the fact that "fresh doe urine" definitely has a perfumery smell to it and the buck urine has a harder musky smell to it. Nothing even remotely close to the smell of the pungent odors that we are used to buying from the shelves.... Trust me, after 6 months of bottle fresh deer urine each year, I know what it smells like.... ukey:

Anyway, I just have to ask one more question for you all to think about.... When was the last time you stood at a urinal and urinated the color of coffee? I have had some binges and even drank the green beer to urinate green, but I have yet to pee the color of coffee and have it as thick as tar... I also have yet, after 6 years of collecting deer urine, seen a buck or doe urinated any other color than real light golden brown from the doe to a reddish tint of testosterone in the buck.....


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Very good explanation Stonycreek.


Oh, and as you know I just drop them and use my own whiz on my mock scrapes.


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## Todd_ID (May 15, 2007)

Good informative post Stony. Now the question comes: how do you extend the life of the product? Bottled fresh, shipped pronto, useless in a few weeks seems to be your take on the process (and you know a bunch more about scents than I). How do we, as broke hunters, go about using a quality product without a second mortgage?


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## Buzzkill (Aug 8, 2005)

Stonycreek said:


> So, you want to know the difference, do ya? Well let me try to explain what I have found over the last 6 years....
> 
> On the roof of a buck's mouth is an old factory organ called the ...


I'm sure you are very knowledgeable on the subject but I gotta tell ya, when you start off talking about the "old factory organ" that doesn't really instill me with confidence....sorry, but I had to bust your stones a little on that one. I'm sure you knew it is really the olfactory, not the old factory.


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## quags37 (Oct 12, 2005)

Buzzkill said:


> I'm sure you are very knowledgeable on the subject but I gotta tell ya, when you start off talking about the "old factory organ" that doesn't really instill me with confidence....sorry, but I had to bust your stones a little on that one. I'm sure you knew it is really the olfactory, not the old factory.


i immediately thought the same thing- credibility right out the window... but the rest of the post did seem to be pretty informative and seemingly correct.


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## three under (May 17, 2007)

Great thread! It takes some searching but I can usually learn something new on this site everyday. I usually don't use urine sent much but I did pick up a can of that silly string stuff the other day and now I'm not sure if I will even use it.


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## posco (Feb 27, 2007)

quags37 said:


> i immediately thought the same thing- credibility right out the window... but the rest of the post did seem to be pretty informative and seemingly correct.


Be a great time to claim typo.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Sorry Buzz.....*



Buzzkill said:


> I'm sure you are very knowledgeable on the subject but I gotta tell ya, when you start off talking about the "old factory organ" that doesn't really instill me with confidence....sorry, but I had to bust your stones a little on that one. I'm sure you knew it is really the olfactory, not the old factory.


Sorry Buzz, I forgot to have my marketing firm proof read everything and approve it to be consumer friendly so folks with a English grammar degree didn't pick it apart.... :wink:

You are correct and it was my bad... olfactory and not old factory..... :embara:


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## muzzyguy16 (Jul 28, 2007)

code blue works for me Used it last year and killed my first buck with it during rifle season


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Lets see....*



Todd_ID said:


> Good informative post Stony. Now the question comes: how do you extend the life of the product? Bottled fresh, shipped pronto, useless in a few weeks seems to be your take on the process (and you know a bunch more about scents than I). How do we, as broke hunters, go about using a quality product without a second mortgage?





Compound bow = $500
Sights = $ 70
Rest = $ 50
Arrows = $ 80
Broadheads = $ 60
Treestand/Blind = $ 200
Hunting Boots $ 150
Camo = $ 120
Hunting License = $ 60

"Estimated Hunting Gear" cost = $1290.00

Now when compared to $50 for 5 bottles of scents that can be used to get deer within range, so you can utilize your $1290 investment, a $50 investment looks pretty good, don't you think? :wink:

_Indemnity Clause--- I reserve the right to misspell any word in the English dictionary and then have it pointed out and made into a creditability claim. ...._ :cheers:


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## CWarmouth (Oct 23, 2005)

This really is a good thread and Stony's info is very informative but...

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here regarding the "old factoy" thing but how can an olfactory nerve NOT be related to the sense of smell? By definition olfactory means of or pertaining to the sense of smell: olfactory organs.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Olfactory systems.....*



CWarmouth said:


> This really is a good thread and Stony's info is very informative but...
> 
> I don't mean to beat a dead horse here regarding the "old factoy" thing but how can an olfactory nerve NOT be related to the sense of smell? By definition olfactory means of or pertaining to the sense of smell: olfactory organs.



Lets take a closer look at the Vomeronasal Organ, the olfactory bulb and the accessory olfactory bulb...

The Vomeronasal Organ (VMO) is actually an "accessory olfactory system" (AOS). The VMO is a fluid filled organ lined with similar cellular structures that are found in the nasal cavity known as sensory epithilium. 

The axons of neurons (nerve fibers) lining the vomeronasal organ are bundled together to form the "vomeronasal nerve". The VM nerve then transmits the information to the accessory olfactory bulb.

The "Accessory Olfactory Bulb" is defined by Wikipedia as follows:
_"The accessory olfactory bulb, which resides on the dorsal-posterior region of the main olfactory bulb, forms a parallel pathway independent from the main olfactory bulb. It is the second processing stage of the accessory olfactory system. It receives axonal input from the vomeronasal organ, a distinct sensory epithelium from the main olfactory epithelium that detects pheremones, among other chemical stimuli. Like the main olfactory bulb, axonal input to the accessory olfactory bulb forms synapses with mitral cells within glomeruli. However, mitral cells in the accessory olfactory bulb project their axons to targets in the amygdala and hypothalamus where they may influence aggressive and mating behavior.

Unlike in the main olfactory system, the axons that leave the accessory olfactory bulb do not project to cortex but rather to targets in the amygdala and hypothalamus where they may influence aggressive and mating behavior"._

I hope this information helps clear up the sense of smell and helps someone understand what is taking place the next time they see a buck doing a lip curl - AKA flehman response, whereby exposing urine to the VMO... Also, you can witness this flehming behavior live on our steaming video from cameras located over food plots and feeders. The buck are really starting to get intense in their inspection of the urines left by other deer... Check it out by clicking here!! 

Also, please forgive me if I've misspelled any words as I didn't take much time to proof read... :embara:


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## three under (May 17, 2007)

*Simplified ArcheryTalk Rules*

*Rule #6* Do not use posts to correct anothers spelling or grammer - this is rude and unnecessary. If you do not understand what they are saying, ask them to clarify.


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## Willcifer13 (Oct 3, 2006)

three under said:


> *Rule #6* Do not use posts to correct anothers spelling or grammer - this is rude and unnecessary. If you do not understand what they are saying, ask them to clarify.




Finally!!! Someone finally said it. I can't stand the grammar and punctuation police. Thank you!!!


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## DonnieBaker (Nov 18, 2005)

posco1 said:


> Be a great time to claim typo.


or mulligan 

Good post Stoney. Perhaps you can answer a ? for me. How come the matriarchs of the doe herd come into heat before the younger does, If breeding cycle is based on photoperiodism? Wouldn't all does come into heat at about the same time (couple days) instead of a couple weeks as based on my experience as I think the oldest does come into heat around the latter part of mid-Oct. Thanks for the response.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Here is some information that I put together a few years ago...*

*How Most Deer Scents are Collected*

Most scent companies don’t raise or own the deer in which the urines comes from. Instead 85% of the big name scent companies rely on deer farms to collect the urine in large shipping containers and ship it to the scent companies bottling facility. At the bottling facility most companies have large bulk tanks where all the urines are dumped in and mixed together, where it loses the deer specific smell of the urine. These bulk tanks then feed automated bottling machines that can fill in excess of 200 bottles a minute or more. Not only do some of the scent companies buy their urine from deer farms, they don’t even take the time to ask what type of collection stalls the urine was collected in. Trust me on this, I have had many scent companies contact me to buy our deer urine in bulk.

Now lets take a look at how urine can be collected from the deer. I have been to uncountable urine collection facilities and in my estimation I feel that 75% of the collection stalls used today are constructed on slopped concrete floors. Although this method works, the porous nature of concrete allows the absorption of the urine and promotes bacteria growth. It’s real hard, if not next to impossible, to completely sanitize or disinfect concrete. So the urine that is collected off of concrete floors will have much less of a shelf life because of the bacteria contamination it has picked up from the floor. Just look at it this way, would you drink your milk if you knew it was collected off of concrete where the cows walk and defecate?

Another bad thing about concrete collection floors is the fact that the urine and dung all share the same floor space. What I mean is, when a deer defecates it is able to walk and track through the dung. This mashes the dung pellets into small pieces and then when the deer urinates, it mixes with the dung and ends up in the collected urine, this is usually where the deep dark color comes from. Dung also contains a large amount of bacteria that will break down and destroy to quality of the urine that was collected. Besides concrete floors allowing the contamination of dung, it also allows the contamination of dirt that is brought into the collection stall on the feet of the deer, and again this drastically adds to the dark color of the urine. As you can see right off the bat the urines collected off of concrete floors is of poor quality and is easily contaminated by feces and dirt, which ultimately weakens the quality of the urine dramatically.

One of the best collection stall setups I have seen is the elevated collection stall. The floor of the roomy collection stall is a mesh type floor suspended above a collection tray. The use of small screens is used to separate the feces and urine, never allowing it to come into contact with or contaminating the urine. These stalls are constructed of nonporous plastic material or stainless steel to help minimize bacteria contamination and are easily disinfected. These are the types of stalls we use in our urine collection facility because we can control the quality of the urines that we collect from our deer.

I feel that the method of collecting the urine greatly affects the results you will see when using it in the woods. Deer don’t “pee and poop” at the same time so there should never be the mixing of deer dung and urine.

So the next time you buy deer scents, ask yourself this question; did this scent company outsource for the urine or do they raise there own deer? Here’s another question to ask yourself; How fresh is the urine inside the bottle and how long has it been sitting on the shelf or in a warehouse at room temperature? Remember, 100% pure urine only has about a 2.5 month shelf life when properly collected and kept cool. Another question to ask is what type of collection stall was the urine collected in - an elevated floor system or off of a concrete floor?


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## CWarmouth (Oct 23, 2005)

Stonycreek said:


> Lets take a closer look at the Vomeronasal Organ, the olfactory bulb and the accessory olfactory bulb...
> 
> The Vomeronasal Organ (VMO) is actually an "accessory olfactory system" (AOS). The VMO is a fluid filled organ lined with similar cellular structures that are found in the nasal cavity known as sensory epithilium.
> 
> ...


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Good Question.....*



DonnieBaker said:


> or mulligan
> 
> Good post Stoney. Perhaps you can answer a ? for me. How come the matriarchs of the doe herd come into heat before the younger does, If breeding cycle is based on photoperiodism? Wouldn't all does come into heat at about the same time (couple days) instead of a couple weeks as based on my experience as I think the oldest does come into heat around the latter part of mid-Oct. Thanks for the response.


Without trying to be a "know-it-all" or presenting myself as a "know-it-all", I have to confess that I am a student of the deer and I try to learn as much as I can. I don't know everything about deer but I have a deep down desire that drives me to understand the inner workings of the animal that I so passionately pursue... 

With that being said, I will try my best to explain what I have learned over the years. 

I am not being prejudice with what I say nor am I considering myself any better than any other person on this forum. However, with being fortunate enough to make my living and be around deer 365 days a year, plus spending the whole month of November each year traveling around the country Artificially Inseminating Whitetail Deer, I have a whole new understanding of the seasonal and life cycles of the deer. 

*-Forewarning - This is going to be a long post....... *:wink:

Whitetail doe are seasonally polyestrous animals and are considered "short-day breeders", just as are fox, goats, sheep and elk, whereby they are only sexually active in the fall & winter. 

Photo-period plays the largest roll with short-day polyestrous animals, such as deer, due to the shortened amount of daylight in the fall and winter due to the fall (autumnal) equinox.

As the amount of daylight in the fall decreases and the amount of darkness increases, the optic nerve stimulates the pineal gland and inturn stimulates larger amounts of melatonin production. According to Wikipedia "the production of melatonin by the pineal gland is under the influence of the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of the hypothalamus which receives information from the retina about the daily pattern of light and darkness. The production of melatonin by the pineal gland is stimulated by darkness and inhibited by light. [8] The retina detects the light, and directly signals and entrains the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of the hypothalamus."

The hypothalamus  is responsible for synthesizing and secreting neurohormones, often called releasing hormones, as needed that control the secretion of hormones from the anterior pituitary gland. Among many of the different hormones the anterior pituitary gland is responsible for, only two are of any real importance to the reproductive physiology of the whitetail deer during the rut; Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing Hormone (LH).

Follicle Stimulating Hormone directly targets the ovaries and testes of the deer. In the doe, FSH stimulates the ovary and triggers the development of a follicle (egg cell). In the buck FSH triggers spermatogenesis in the testes. That's right, buck do NOT produce sperm cells during the summer months!!

Luteinizing Hormone also directly targets the ovaries of the doe and the testes of the buck. LH stimulates the ovary to produce estrogen and also helps trigger the release of the egg cell when she is in Estrus. In the buck, LH triggeres the testes to produce testosterone.

*Hormonal Cycle*







With the basic reproductive physiology explained, this process in the doe is known as the estrous cycle. The estrous cycle is a 26-28 cycle, all leading up to estrus which only last for 12-24 hours. (Sorry, in my previous post I said 24-48 hours). Should the doe not be bred during estrus, she will start her 26-28 day estrous cycle all over again. She will keep cycling though until she is bred or the production of melatonin drops off in the spring due to the spring equinox and increased day length. 

Now how can we use the basic reproductive physiology to help predict when the peak of breeding is going to take place - good question.... I don't think any one person knows the true answer, but it sure is fun to try our hand at figuring it out. :nod: 

Here is my theory/thesis thus far after several years of observation and inducing/synchronizing the estrous cycle of doe for artificial insemination and scent collection. The peak breeding stages of the rut are NOT the same each year and that is 100% factual. However, I don't believe the peak breeding stages of rut are spread out 3-4 weeks. I agree with peak breeding being +/- 1 week but 21-30+ days has no scientific explanation other than unseasonable weather and the health of the doe. A doe is genetically programmed to a cycle 26-28 days for her estrous cycle, just as a woman in her menstrual cycle. These cycles are closely related in time frame of 28 days. However, doe are seasonally polyestrous where woman are not. There is a trigger by mother nature that induces the estrous cycle of the doe. What is it you ask? I strongly agree with the moon theory only as a time keeper. Let me explain. The lunar cycle of the moon is a 27-29 day cycle. If the doe were to start their estrous cycle on a new or full moon, they would cycle again on the next new or full moon simply due the relation in cycle lengths -- 26-28 for the doe and 27-29 for the lunar. So yes, I can see some relevancy in the lunar cycle matching the cycle of peak breeding activity during rut. Do I believe the moon triggers the breeding activity of deer, absolutely NOT!!

Going back to the reproductive physiology of the doe and the optic nerve, melatonin production, etc, I have come to believe that 12-13 hours of darkness is the trigger that initiates the onset of the estrous cycle. Remember, the doe is the one that control the breeding - NOT THE BUCK... Looking at sunrise and sunset times here in Pa the first day of 12 hours of darkness is September 27th. Just for example purposes lets say the conditions are ideal and the doe starts her cycle. 26-28 days later she will be in estrus. This would put the doe being in estrus on October 25th, which coincides with what most hunters see in the woods. Although this peak in breeding is not all that intense, there is breeding taking place. I personally believe that the doe that lost their fawns or did not have fawns in the spring are the ones that will cycle first. I believe this simply because doe that are with fawns are still producing milk in their mammary glands and this is controlled by increased prolactin, which prolactin represses the normal levels of sex hormones. 

Say the doe didn't get bred on October 25th and she cycles through again. That would put her in estrus again on November 22nd and if she were bred her fawns would be born around June 9th 2008. These are real numbers and fall well within the time lines we each see in the woods each year, at least here in Pennsylvania that is.

Now lets look at the variations from year to year in the peak breeding dates. Remember the melatonin production that stimulates FSH and LH production? I feel that if we have unseasonable weather, IE very hot and above normal temperatures, the melatonin production is repressed due to the added stress on the deer and this is the delay we see from year to year and also doe to doe....


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## corpsemaker (Jan 24, 2005)

Stonycreek said:


> Without trying to be a "know-it-all" or presenting myself as a "know-it-all", I have to confess that I am a student of the deer and I try to learn as much as I can. I don't know everything about deer but I have a deep down desire that drives me to understand the inner workings of the animal that I so passionately pursue...
> 
> With that being said, I will try my best to explain what I have learned over the years.
> 
> ...


WOW. I am impressed. Very interesting. I have been reading some on the breeding aspects of deer. This sounds like this is great information to remember. I am learning more amd more every day. Thanks for the post.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

CWarmouth said:


> So, would doe pee collected in, say, New Jersey during the rut in November be effective in, say, Alabama during the rut in January?


I don't see any reason why it would not be if you could figure out how to keep it past the 2 months of shelf life... Remember, I could only keep fresh urine for about 8 weeks before it turned to ammonia... 

Also, I don't think New Jersey allows Deer Farming, but I knew what you meant..... :wink:

I had been to Louisiana last year to Artificially Inseminate several doe... In conducting my initial evaluation of the natural breeding cycles of the deer there, I had found out that breeding is taking place in mid to late December. Now this is in bayou country below New Orleans and the deer are a completely different subspecies of whitetail than those found here in Pa, hence the later breeding dates... 

One of the products that we offer is our TotalDraw™ "Estrus" scent. This scent is collected from our doe that are being run through estrous synchronization protocols, just as if they were going to have semen artificially introduced and bred. 

Although we do not breed them we do collect the urine over a 24 hour period prior to when we would introduce semen if we were planning to breed artificially. Also, as a doe enters estrus, her vaginal walls secrete a estrogen rich mucous that we collect and dip q-tips into and add to the bottle of urine that we collected from her. 

We have 5 doe that are being synchronized at any given time during the fall and we have at least one doe that comes into heat each week. We are only able to collect about a gallon of estrus urine from a single doe each 28 days.... We also synchronize doe cycles up until January...

This is the explanation behind the higher price for the TotalDraw™, plus we cold ship your orders..... Just thought I'd throw that in the mix.... :wink:


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## CWarmouth (Oct 23, 2005)

This is all very cool stuff. I bet you can smoke some folks in a game of Deer Estrous Trivial Pursuit.

Thanks for taking the time to put all this out!


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

Tagging thsi thread for later. Good stuff here. Unfortuantely time contraints wont let me hunt until november during the rut. I get to hunt a whopping 3-4 days total for deer this year. Probably worth spending $50 on a couple bottles in my mind. How long is it from placing an order to delievery of the product?


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## UCNYbowhunter (Mar 31, 2007)

i want to see a video of someone actually collecting it although anti's would prolly say the deer were being hurt just picturing in my mind someone with a rain suite on with a bottle standing behind a deer waiting seems pretty funny


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*We are a little behind....*



SilentElk said:


> How long is it from placing an order to delievery of the product?


We are running behind this year due to the unseasonably hot weather and also EHD being reported in close proximity (within 30 miles) of our collection facilities. We are not taking any chances or adding any additional stress to the deer while we await the cooler temps.... 

Looking at the 10 day forecast, it looks like we will start collecting full bore Tuesday of next week and get caught up on the back orders by Friday....


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*It's a little more advanced than that....*



UCNYbowhunter said:


> i want to see a video of someone actually collecting it although anti's would prolly say the deer were being hurt just picturing in my mind someone with a rain suite on with a bottle standing behind a deer waiting seems pretty funny


It's funny that you mention collecting urine that way.... To be quite honest, that is exactly how we got started.... :embara:

When I first got my deer I had several of my friends and neighbors ask me to collect them some fresh urine from my doe... At the time, I had some very tame doe that I could walk up behind and using a large mason jar, I could collect the urine.. 

Then the second year rolled around, I could no longer collect the urine fast enough or run fast enough to get to the doe when they were starting to urinate.... :doh:

So I built collection stalls that I could put the deer in overnight... From there it just kept growing and today we are supplying fresh scents all across the US and Canada via mail order.... 

Funny how life works and how one can make a product simply by peeing around...... :wink:

Here are a couple pictures taken while gathering vaginal secretions and readying the doe for A/I....


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## surnikis (Aug 28, 2007)

S&P Scents sells a fresh FROZEN estrus urine and it can be either ordered direct or found in some stores. Their estrus is not even stocked yet, WWW.SPSCENTS.COM Can be found in Gander stores too


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## Punch_Free4L (Mar 25, 2007)

Stonycreek said:


> Lets take a closer look at the Vomeronasal Organ, the olfactory bulb and the accessory olfactory bulb...
> 
> The Vomeronasal Organ (VMO) is actually an "accessory olfactory system" (AOS). The VMO is a fluid filled organ lined with similar cellular structures that are found in the nasal cavity known as sensory epithilium.
> 
> ...



:mg:


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

Stoney, are these pictures from your farm?


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Awesome information here.....looking forward to hear more as time progresses....oh, and Stony....be sure to let me know when you catch up on orders, so I can place mine :tongue:


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## lampasashunter (Mar 2, 2007)

How does it keep while being shipped in the mail? Would I then need to keep it in the fridge? What is cold shipped?


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

lampasashunter said:


> How does it keep while being shipped in the mail? Would I then need to keep it in the fridge? What is cold shipped?


We ship the scents USPS Priority Mail and include freezer packs to keep the scents cool while in transit.... 

Yes, you will need to keep the scents refrigerated and when you go hunting, take the freezer pack and use it to keep the scents cool while hunting....


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## coop (Oct 22, 2003)

According to his website, they ship it with a cold gel pack. After you get it you would definatly want to refrigerate it or it will spoil much sooner. I like they cold shippment feature. I haven't seen anyone else offer this feature. I think I'll try some this season.


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Mine are shipped in those reusable gel freezer packs.....I have a small camo bag I bought at walmart, so when I head to the woods, I put my scent in the bag, the two gel packs, zip it up and head out.....works great, the bottles are still cold at the end of the day


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## Whitefeather (Jul 27, 2003)

Stonycreek said:


> Lets take a closer look at the Vomeronasal Organ, the olfactory bulb and the accessory olfactory bulb...
> 
> The Vomeronasal Organ (VMO) is actually an "accessory olfactory system" (AOS). The VMO is a fluid filled organ lined with similar cellular structures that are found in the nasal cavity known as sensory epithilium.
> 
> ...


There are three bucks there right now. One dandy!

JP


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Hold on... I will zoom in on them...*

Give me a few minutes and I will zoom in them for you!!!


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

The best test is to taste it. If it tastes sweet, its good, if its bitter throw it away.


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## Whitefeather (Jul 27, 2003)

Stonycreek said:


> Give me a few minutes and I will zoom in them for you!!!


Nice...thanks!

JP


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Social Grooming*



Whitefeather said:


> Nice...thanks!
> 
> JP


There is a lot of grooming going on tonight...... You notice that?


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## Whitefeather (Jul 27, 2003)

Stonycreek said:


> There is a lot of grooming going on tonight...... You notice that?


Yes I did. Just seen some sparring in the background too. :darkbeer:

JP

Back to topic though... Why is it that "other" manufacturers urine is brown? I too have noticed that it smells just like a porta potty. Almost like that's where they are getting their supply. ukey:

JP


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Whitefeather said:


> Yes I did. Just seen some sparring in the background too. :darkbeer:
> 
> JP
> 
> ...





Stonycreek said:


> Another bad thing about concrete collection floors is the fact that the urine and dung all share the same floor space. What I mean is, when a deer defecates it is able to walk and track through the dung. This mashes the dung pellets into small pieces and then when the deer urinates, it mixes with the dung and ends up in the collected urine, this is usually where the deep dark color comes from. Dung also contains a large amount of bacteria that will break down and destroy to quality of the urine that was collected. Besides concrete floors allowing the contamination of dung, it also allows the contamination of dirt that is brought into the collection stall on the feet of the deer, and again this drastically adds to the dark color of the urine. As you can see right off the bat the urines collected off of concrete floors is of poor quality and is easily contaminated by feces and dirt, which ultimately weakens the quality of the urine dramatically.




This should answer it for ya WF


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## Whitefeather (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks fasst! Guess I should've scrolled through all replies first eh?:wink:

JP


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

Whitefeather said:


> Why is it that "other" manufacturers urine is brown? I too have noticed that it smells just like a porta potty. Almost like that's where they are getting their supply. ukey:
> 
> JP


There are several factors that will turn the urine brown.... the obvious is feces and dirt. The second factor is air and the third is time... 

A cant speak for other manufacturers, but I can say what I have learned about the deer urine..... I know at the end of the season, I usually have a little urine left over in a jug and after 4 or 5 months it turns dark brown....even when refrigerated..


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## Milhouse (Jan 18, 2003)

skyhunter said:


> Want to know the real truth about doe in heat / estrus urine?
> 
> Here it is: What attracts a buck during the breeding phase is what is actually contained in a doe's urine for only a few days.
> 
> ...





I've read the same thing. Not sure where the article was, maybe Deer & Deer Hunting. It said something like "if you had actual doe in estrous pheromones on a drag rag, you'd never even make it to your stand.", or something to that effect. It really does make sense if you think about it.

I am not saying all scents are totally worthless, they do have a place, but they are not a magic bullet.


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## fatboy95 (Nov 23, 2005)

Stony.. I got to say that was one of the best reads I have had all year long. I am totally excited for hunting, once a cool down comes. I sent you an order for some pee.. can't beat your deal for the package at all. 

What I am most interested in seeing, actually smelling, is the fresh deer pee... never thought I would ever say that tho..


Thanks again for sharing all your hard earned knowledge..


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## jason060788 (Jul 14, 2006)

Just put my order in!!! I'll let you know how it works!!!!


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## huntnutsbro (May 19, 2007)

*ttt*

very good post! stoney i will check out your site, and probably order some of your scents! and yes, the bucks in the field tonight were some nice ones! great stuff guys.


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## CGSteve (Mar 19, 2006)

Species...does the species matter at all? I ask because out here in CA we have two different species, Blacktail and Mule Deer.

I'll be heading out on Friday for my first hunt of the season and would love to secure some good wiz...the Blacktails are starting to rut and this would be primo for me.

If the Whitetail wiz works for the deer out here, then you can count me in for an overnight order.


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

Stoney, are the pictures of your deer on your farm???


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## DonnieBaker (Nov 18, 2005)

Stonycreek said:


> Without trying to be a "know-it-all" or presenting myself as a "know-it-all", I have to confess that I am a student of the deer and I try to learn as much as I can. I don't know everything about deer but I have a deep down desire that drives me to understand the inner workings of the animal that I so passionately pursue...
> 
> With that being said, I will try my best to explain what I have learned over the years.
> 
> ...


Wasn't expecting such an indepth answer, but, thank you it was enlightning.



SilentElk said:


> Tagging thsi thread for later. Good stuff here. Unfortuantely time contraints wont let me hunt until november during the rut. I get to hunt a whopping 3-4 days total for deer this year. Probably worth spending $50 on a couple bottles in my mind. How long is it from placing an order to delievery of the product?


I hear ya, I have a total of 10 days this year. 



Stonycreek said:


> We are running behind this year due to the unseasonably hot weather and also EHD being reported in close proximity (within 30 miles) of our collection facilities. We are not taking any chances or adding any additional stress to the deer while we await the cooler temps....
> 
> Looking at the 10 day forecast, it looks like we will start collecting full bore Tuesday of next week and get caught up on the back orders by Friday....


I'll need the 3 pack for Halloween. I'll be placing my order soon.



surnikis said:


> S&P Scents sells a fresh FROZEN estrus urine and it can be either ordered direct or found in some stores. Their estrus is not even stocked yet, WWW.SPSCENTS.COM Can be found in Gander stores too


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## Buckshot101 (Sep 23, 2006)

Where's the farm at?


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*s & p scent work great!*

I've used s&p scents - their estrous works the best. It comes frozen and like the info in this thread it has that light golden color and the pungent/sweet smell.

FYI pheromones will only last a few days at most in the urine. They dissipate in about 72 hours or less.

I work at a Gander and pulled 'fresh' scent off the shelves this week that were "2005 batch" and "2006 batch" and $36.00/ bottle Code Blue from last year.


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## trebor69 (Jul 31, 2005)

I would assume that at $25-50 per tiny 1oz bottle....you guys are not just dumping this on the ground when you go out?


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*South Western Pa....*



Buckshot101 said:


> Where's the farm at?


Buckshot,
Our farm is located in south western Pa... We also have several other farms that co-op for us. What this means is, I had helped a few other close by farms setup their collection facilities. This allows me to collect enough urine to meet the demand. The collection stalls are designed in the same fashion as mine, the deer are fed the same feed as mine and are in the collection stalls the same amount of time as mine... 

Just as when I collect, the urine is collected at night and is delivered to my shop early in the morning in labeled containers from one specific deer. The collection stalls are cleaned and readied for the deer to be put back in that evening...

Hope this answers your question.... :wink:


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Sorry missed this one....*



pdaddy said:


> Stoney, are the pictures of your deer on your farm???


pdaddy,
Sorry I missed your first post about the pictures.... The answer is no... 
Those pictures are not taken from our farm but are pictures of the process of clearing the mucous from the vagina and readying the doe to be A/I'ed... The clear looking tube you see inserted into the doe's vagina is a lighted speculum, which is used to visually locate the cervical opening and also used to drain the bladder and clear the mucous before semen is introduced - if the doe were being Artificially bred...

I plan on taking a large amount of pictures to show the steps of collecting the vagina secretions to show "how it's made".... Keep in mind, that I will NOT post pictures publically of our collection stalls or facilities as a lot of engineering and time went into designing them in order to offer clean and fresh urines....


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

CGSteve said:


> Species...does the species matter at all? I ask because out here in CA we have two different species, Blacktail and Mule Deer.
> 
> I'll be heading out on Friday for my first hunt of the season and would love to secure some good wiz...the Blacktails are starting to rut and this would be primo for me.
> 
> If the Whitetail wiz works for the deer out here, then you can count me in for an overnight order.


Ok, let me explain the sub-species a little better.... In the Canadian deer, the Dakota whitetail,Odocoileus virginianus docotensis is a huge bodied deer when compared to the deer in Texas, the Texas whitetail, Odocoileus virginianus texanus. Although Texas has four other subspecies of Whitetails the Texanus is the largest bodied of the four....

Here is some good reading on the subject of the sub-species of Whitetails and their distribution... Sub-Species of Whitetails

As far as the Family of Cervidae and the sexual responses that one will have on the other, I can NOT honestly tell you that whitetail urine will stimulate a blacktail or Mule deer. I can however tell you that I know of many farmers that have successfully bred mule deer to whitetails and the whitetail buck WILL breed a mule deer doe and vice-versa. 

Here is some good reading on the cervidae family... Cervidae Family

Hope this helps clear up the misconceptions....


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I'm getting worried after my post everybody has tasted theirs. So tell me, was it bitter or sweet????


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## three under (May 17, 2007)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I'm getting worried after my post everybody has tasted theirs. So tell me, was it bitter or sweet????


Just like Corona without the lime.


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## oldglorynewbie (Oct 17, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I'm getting worried after my post everybody has tasted theirs. So tell me, was it bitter or sweet????


I found it was better coming back up.ukey:


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## jcferrit (Apr 13, 2006)

This has been a great post with a lot of useful information! I have a question that pertains to using the scents. Is it best to use scent wicks and hang them from a branch and then throw it away after the hunt? I use to put them in a ziploc and use it the next hunt, but after reading this I don't think Ill be doing that again. What do you guys think is the best/most affective way to deploy the scent??


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Never had Corona. Now never will.


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## dreaming (Sep 10, 2007)

I like S&P Scent frozen urines. They have a complete line of "fresh FROZEN" urines collected at the apropriate times of year for ease of use, freshness, and the proper "smell".


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

What I like is to take a large zip lock baggie with me and when I shoot a doe I often get lucky and get a full bladder of _real fresh_ pee that I take and pour into 35mm film canisters and freeze. Pull one out the night before and let it thaw and you have the best thing you could ever have.

Tink must have had many a good laugh over you guys......all the way to the bank.



If you insist on *buying* deer pee save yourself some money and buy it in bulk like this and after the hunt you can use the left overs to clean your "old factory" glands:


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

jcferrit said:


> This has been a great post with a lot of useful information! I have a question that pertains to using the scents. Is it best to use scent wicks and hang them from a branch and then throw it away after the hunt? I use to put them in a ziploc and use it the next hunt, but after reading this I don't think Ill be doing that again. What do you guys think is the best/most affective way to deploy the scent??


I was going to ask the same question!!! I have always used the infamous "Scent-Bombs" were you put the deer pee on the wick and then hang it from a branch. Then after the hunt put the cap on the scent bomb and then put in a ziploc bag and refrigerate. But from the sounds of it, I guess you should use a fresh wick on every hunt.

*Hey Stoney* I am also located in Southwestern PA, Fayette county and I was wondering if you have a shop where you sale your product. I would hate to have you ship it to me if I could just stop in and buy some!!!

Also, how long will a 1oz bottle last?

Thanks for a great post!!! Sounds like you have a top notch outfit going!!!

ERic


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## Stump Shooter (Apr 13, 2006)

So essentially any scent(liquid or gel) that doesn't need to be kept cold isn't necessarily worth the $$ spent? Or is there another consensus that's out there?


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Xtec Shooter said:


> So essentially any scent(liquid or gel) that doesn't need to be kept cold isn't necessarily worth the $$ spent? Or is there another consensus that's out there?


The way I understand it is, urine must be kept cold or it turns to "ammonia" much faster.


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## savedbygrace (Nov 16, 2005)

Stonycreek said:


> Without trying to be a "know-it-all" or presenting myself as a "know-it-all", I have to confess that I am a student of the deer and I try to learn as much as I can. I don't know everything about deer but I have a deep down desire that drives me to understand the inner workings of the animal that I so passionately pursue...
> 
> With that being said, I will try my best to explain what I have learned over the years.
> 
> ...



Stoney is a great guy with a wealth of knowledge. I almost got in trouble at work cause he and I had a long phone conversation about this stuff.... Very good guy to deal with. Would recommend his products ANY day.


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## Stump Shooter (Apr 13, 2006)

fasst said:


> The way I understand it is, urine must be kept cold or it turns to "ammonia" much faster.


But...again from what I've just read...unless that scent starts out in a pure form(no feces/dirt, etc..), it wouldn't matter if it's kept cold when it's been sitting on a shelf or warehouse for X amount of months. Right? So all in all....if it's not a scent that is shipping directly to you and kept cold, waste of $$. Right? How about the gel scents that are made today? One that pops in my head right now would be James Valley Scents.

I don't know if anyone "in the know" is really going to stick their necks out there and give their honest opinion about what I've just asked....But would you? ha, ha


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## bh10 (Jun 2, 2007)

Stonycreek your fulldraw do you only sell that at certain times of year? like starting up now?


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## buckpro85 (Jul 11, 2007)

*????????????*

wow this thread took off, i didnt even look, all of you make very good points and its very good info. so if i got the stuff a couple weeks ago, and its in the freezer, it will be as good as it was the 1st 4 weeks. or is it still ok, just doesnt have the right stuff in it


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## MNmike (Dec 27, 2003)

*Stonycreek*

Thanks for the info.

I almost thought you where the guy from MN I bought from.

(Stonybrook Outfitters)

They and you think alike.:wink:


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## sweryap (Aug 16, 2006)

Stonycreek,
I think anyone reading this thread is going to be tempted to buy from you, great way to represent yourself and your product:darkbeer:


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## posco (Feb 27, 2007)

Don't know what to think with all of disinformation out there but synthetics work and they smell just like amonia. Amonia Hold is on the market trying to remove amonia odor from scents. I wonder if the deer really care.
I had one come into a log I'd been spitting tobacco on and only drove it off after five....yes, five misplaced shots from a 30-30. I used to get a little ancy on shooting at bucks.


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

posco1 said:


> Don't know what to think with all of disinformation out there but synthetics work and they smell just like amonia. Amonia Hold is on the market trying to remove amonia odor from scents. I wonder if the deer really care.
> I had one come into a log I'd been spitting tobacco on and only drove it off after five....yes, five misplaced shots from a 30-30. I used to get a little ancy on shooting at bucks.


They seem to like apple and berry skoal. BTW, I get that buck fever shake every now and then myself:tongue:


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## Stump Shooter (Apr 13, 2006)

Cmarti said:


> They seem to like apple and berry skoal.



They may like it, but no way I can get myself to chew that stuff. Ish! Might as well throw a jolly rancher in your lip. LOL


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## IrishMike (Mar 19, 2007)

posco1 said:


> Don't know what to think with all of disinformation out there but synthetics work and they smell just like amonia. Amonia Hold is on the market trying to remove amonia odor from scents. I wonder if the deer really care.
> I had one come into a log I'd been spitting tobacco on and only drove it off after five....yes, five misplaced shots from a 30-30. I used to get a little ancy on shooting at bucks.


I had that happen once too!!!! It is the deer pictured below now on my wall. The taxidermist did a great job!

He was deaf in both ears. He actually had nose plugs in. And believe it or not he was wearing Prada Sun Glasses! Who would thought it!


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## Illustrator (Aug 9, 2007)

Here's a question to consider:

Here in MI, the deer aren't rutting yet, that is to say my assumption is that the does aren't in estrous.

Assuming that since MI is a northern state, and that the further north you travel, the rut starts earlier, and thusly, the does become estrous earlier. (except for the weirdos in SC, which is a whole other thread.)


Sooo, how can ANYONE be selling "fresh" estrous doe urine right now???

Is it really just frozen urine from last year, or what??

Stony, please shed some light on your amazing product collection timetable :wink:


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## IrishMike (Mar 19, 2007)

Great Question!!!!!!!!!


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## posco (Feb 27, 2007)

IrishMike said:


> I had that happen once too!!!! It is the deer pictured below now on my wall. The taxidermist did a great job!
> 
> He was deaf in both ears. He actually had nose plugs in. And believe it or not he was wearing Prada Sun Glasses! Who would thought it!


With my skills I'm thankful for the occasional deaf, dumb and blind deer. 
Rut crazed buck can and will respond to most anything in my estimation.


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

Xtec Shooter said:


> They may like it, but no way I can get myself to chew that stuff. Ish! Might as well throw a jolly rancher in your lip. LOL


Well if you have never chewed don't, brutal to quit. If you are a Copenhagen guy, you have no taste buds left:wink: Used hunting and scent control as my crutch/motivation to quit. 

Am I the only guy here who hunts w/out scents? I have had a few little guys hit em, but the big boys have been Scent Free. I try them a hunt or two every rut, but i would rather be as scent free as possible and not scare the does off. I have had better luck that way at least. Who knows, I have about given up trying to figure out how a deer's brain works. I was never able to understand why women shop for pleasure either......:tongue:


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## IrishMike (Mar 19, 2007)

posco1 said:


> With my skills I'm thankful for the occasional deaf, dumb and blind deer.
> Rut crazed buck can and will respond to most anything in my estimation.


Just making a joke! I couldn't agree more, some rut crazed bucks seem to be deaf, dumb, and blind when searching for does in those CRAZY DAYS!

I have many friends who dip and spit all over everything and still manage to tag out every year. I still tend to believe a wise old ghost would never show his face under these conditions. But I won't argue about it because I know people have killed giants under worst conditions.

Back to the topic!

Where is the answers on Fresh Estrous Urine for this year????????? Is it frozen from last year or what?


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

PSE Guy, because the does are stimulated by light to go into estrus, Mr. Stony can fake any day and night light he wants to in a enclosed artificial atmostphere. 

He will just turn on the lights and turn them off in the hours need to stimulate estous and then collect the pee.


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## seabeejared (Apr 30, 2007)

SHOW ME THE PEE-PEE. Awesome thread. Gonna give your product a stab Mr. Stony. Do you give military discounts? I am a cheap sob.:wink:


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## Moon (Jul 16, 2006)

*Deer are curious animals*

You old timers might remember a so called buck lure called "Buck Johnsons" It was the nastiest smelling stuff you can imagine. As a matter of fact it smelled like something dead after decay sets in..................but on several occasions over the years I had bucks follow it to my tree stand. So don't be surprized if a buck is attracted that barn yard odor so called buck lure that you buy at Wal-Mart. I guess it's one of those deals where you were suckered into buying a worthless product but even it may work from time to time A clock that doesn't work is right twice a day:darkbeer:


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

WOW,
your are either the most knowledgebale urine salesman in the world or the best billchitter ive ever read in print....!!!:jaw:

Ya got me, I just ordered the 3 pack.. I hope that all the bottles are 4 oz. bottles. Your web page does not have any details on that.


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## Ohio Bow (Jan 15, 2005)

Thats why I only use Docs Scents. Always fresh. What isnt sold is sent back to Docs.


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Ohio Bow said:


> Thats why I only use Docs Scents. Always fresh. What isnt sold is sent back to Docs.


Is it cold shipped both ways? :tongue:


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## DonnieBaker (Nov 18, 2005)

*Knock, knock*

Stoney...were'd ya go, inquiring minds need to know.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Wow, this really took off.....*



jcferrit said:


> What do you guys think is the best/most affective way to deploy the scent??


I personally like mock scrapes, scent trails and mock rubs.... Here is the reason.... I have yet to see a buck cock his leg to pee on the side of a tree, or climb 20 feet up a tree to hang a scent wick.... :wink: 
I do how ever watch buck make scrapes, rubs and scent trails. 

I know many of you have seen a buck do a rub urination where they rub their tarsals together as they urinate on them. the urine runs down the legs of the buck and the buck is squishing his feet in his puddle of urine. As the deer walks he leaves droppings of urine that is still running down his legs - hence the scent trail... Also as soon as a buck finishes his rub urination he will almost always lick the urine from his tarsals. Then he will start chewing on his licking branch and then rub his pre-orbitals and forehead glands on the branch... Here is what I think is really taking place.... The buck transfers his urine to his mouth by licking his tarsals. Then he transfers the urine to the licking branch by chewing or licking the branch. Then he rubs his preorbitals and forehead glands on the licking branch... So now the buck has his scent (urine) placed up off the ground and it can be scent wicked - so to speak. The buck also has his scent (urine) on his forehead so that he can scent mark his rubs... 





pabuck said:


> I was going to ask the same question!!! I have always used the infamous "Scent-Bombs" were you put the deer pee on the wick and then hang it from a branch. Then after the hunt put the cap on the scent bomb and then put in a ziploc bag and refrigerate. But from the sounds of it, I guess you should use a fresh wick on every hunt.
> 
> *Hey Stoney* I am also located in Southwestern PA, Fayette county and I was wondering if you have a shop where you sale your product. I would hate to have you ship it to me if I could just stop in and buy some!!!
> 
> ...


I use unscented tampons as they have a string and are bio-degradable should you stick a deer and forget to remove your wicks from the woods. Plus they are cheap!!! 

We have a shop where the local boys will stop by on the honor system and take what they need from the fridge, if there are scents available.... Mail order has priority and this time of year scents go quick.

How long will a one once bottle last? That is a hard question to answer. I only use the one once TotalDraw during the chase phase leading up to actual breeding. I will dress up my mock scrapes and pull scent trails. I primarily use 4 ounce BuckDraw and 4 ounce MaxDraw for the bulk of my setups....



Xtec Shooter said:


> So essentially any scent(liquid or gel) that doesn't need to be kept cold isn't necessarily worth the $$ spent? Or is there another consensus that's out there?


That is 100% false.... We are only talking about 100% pure Deer Urine that has no additives or preservatives...... We do not add preservatives such as sodium benzoate  or any of the other preservatives. I tried Sodium Benzoate in the early years of collecting and found that it made a noticeable difference in the smell of the urine. Now if I could notice a change, what do you think the deer would notice?



Xtec Shooter said:


> But...again from what I've just read...unless that scent starts out in a pure form(no feces/dirt, etc..), it wouldn't matter if it's kept cold when it's been sitting on a shelf or warehouse for X amount of months. Right? So all in all....if it's not a scent that is shipping directly to you and kept cold, waste of $$. Right? How about the gel scents that are made today? One that pops in my head right now would be James Valley Scents.
> 
> I don't know if anyone "in the know" is really going to stick their necks out there and give their honest opinion about what I've just asked....But would you? ha, ha


I can't speak for specific companies or their proprietary formulas of lure.... I will say that the Ph level of 100% pure urine WILL increase in a few short days if not kept cool. Even when kept cool the Ph level of 100% pure urine will still increase, but at a much slower rate..... 



bh10 said:


> Stonycreek your fulldraw do you only sell that at certain times of year? like starting up now?


Yes, we only sell our scents seasonal, starting around the middle to end of September. We will collect into January.... 




buckpro85 said:


> wow this thread took off, i didnt even look, all of you make very good points and its very good info. so if i got the stuff a couple weeks ago, and its in the freezer, it will be as good as it was the 1st 4 weeks. or is it still ok, just doesnt have the right stuff in it


I never tried intentionally freezing urine to see what would happen... However, a few years ago I did have a half gallon left over from the end of collection season that froze over the winter. The top 2/3's of the urine was clear ice and the bottom third was dark. So this could indicate that freezing may cause some sort of separation.... 



sweryap said:


> Stonycreek,
> I think anyone reading this thread is going to be tempted to buy from you, great way to represent yourself and your product:darkbeer:


Just being 100% honest and trying to offer a product with integrity... Thank you for the compliment.... 



PSEGuy said:


> Here's a question to consider:
> 
> Here in MI, the deer aren't rutting yet, that is to say my assumption is that the does aren't in estrous.
> 
> ...


Ok, without turning this already long reply into a chapter reading, during the fall photo-period stimulates the doe into estrous. One of the main hormones that is responsible for stimulating the production of progesterone and estrogen is GnRH (Gonadotropin-releasing hormone) As the GnRH increases in production this triggers the doe to enter their estrous cycle. GnRH can be injected to cause the doe to start their cycles earlier in the year, only by a few weeks due to the melatonin created from the optic nerve and photo period. Some one mentioned light stimuli as a way of bringing the doe in earlier.. this is true and is used in many polyestrous farm animals to create the estrous cycle twice a year.... 



Cmarti said:


> Well if you have never chewed don't, brutal to quit. If you are a Copenhagen guy, you have no taste buds left:wink: Used hunting and scent control as my crutch/motivation to quit.
> 
> Am I the only guy here who hunts w/out scents? I have had a few little guys hit em, but the big boys have been Scent Free. I try them a hunt or two every rut, but i would rather be as scent free as possible and not scare the does off. I have had better luck that way at least. Who knows, I have about given up trying to figure out how a deer's brain works. I was never able to understand why women shop for pleasure either......:tongue:


Being scent free absolutely helps, but I would much sooner have something out about 15-20 yards that the deer will focus on and be "calm" so I can ready for a shot without having all eyes in my direction.....



IrishMike said:


> Just making a joke! I couldn't agree more, some rut crazed bucks seem to be deaf, dumb, and blind when searching for does in those CRAZY DAYS!
> 
> I have many friends who dip and spit all over everything and still manage to tag out every year. I still tend to believe a wise old ghost would never show his face under these conditions. But I won't argue about it because I know people have killed giants under worst conditions.
> 
> ...


Estrous is the 26-28 days the doe go through leading up to the 12-24 hours of Estrus.... My doe have been in their natural estrous cycle since approximately September 27th and will be in "estrus" sometime between October 23rd and the 26th.. I really broke down the reproductive physiology of the doe several posts back.... Please refer to post# 31 for a more detailed explanation....



ember said:


> PSE Guy, because the does are stimulated by light to go into estrus, Mr. Stony can fake any day and night light he wants to in a enclosed artificial atmostphere.
> 
> He will just turn on the lights and turn them off in the hours need to stimulate estous and then collect the pee.


Good point, but I use hormones to synchronize the cycles of the doe we collect TotalDraw "estrus" from... Our MaxDraw is urine collected from our doe during their natural estrous cycle.... 



seabeejared said:


> SHOW ME THE PEE-PEE. Awesome thread. Gonna give your product a stab Mr. Stony. Do you give military discounts? I am a cheap sob.:wink:


Thank you for your service to this country... What branch did you serve in? My stepson just got back from 13 months in Iraq..... Maybe you might know him? 



Moonkryket said:


> You old timers might remember a so called buck lure called "Buck Johnsons" It was the nastiest smelling stuff you can imagine. As a matter of fact it smelled like something dead after decay sets in..................but on several occasions over the years I had bucks follow it to my tree stand. So don't be surprized if a buck is attracted that barn yard odor so called buck lure that you buy at Wal-Mart. I guess it's one of those deals where you were suckered into buying a worthless product but even it may work from time to time A clock that doesn't work is right twice a day:darkbeer:


Very true... young buck and doe are some of the most curious creatures that I have seen.. Sometimes they remind me of little kids that wonder why those wires are plugged in to the wall? 



slay said:


> WOW,
> your are either the most knowledgebale urine salesman in the world or the best billchitter ive ever read in print....!!!:jaw:
> 
> Ya got me, I just ordered the 3 pack.. I hope that all the bottles are 4 oz. bottles. Your web page does not have any details on that.


The BuckDraw and MaxDraw are in 4 ounce bottles.... The TotalDraw is in a 1 once bottle... It is listed on the website.... Reason for the 1 once is that we can only collect true estrus scent from a doe every 28 days and only for a 24 hour period... Thanks for your order... give it a try in some mock scrapes and see if the area gets tore up with rubs and scrapes.... :wink:



DonnieBaker said:


> Stoney...were'd ya go, inquiring minds need to know.


Donny I am here..... I do try to do a little hunting every now and then... :wink:


Sorry guys.... I really do want to take the time to answer everyones questions on an individual bases. However I am extremely busy this time of year with urine collection and the many other facets of raising deer, including semen collection, artificial insemination and consulting.... Please forgive me if I am not prompt to answer your questions on an individual basis... 

Also, I just would like to point this out one more time.... I in NO way consider myself an "expert" on whitetailed deer.... I like sharing what I am learning about the deer and sharing my passion of the whitetail deer with the fellow hunter... I am not always right and my answers are nothing more than my opinions and experiences based on trial and error and research.... I try to look at all angles of the equation and form my own opinion based on what I believe is the right answer and makes the most sense. 

I honestly don't know what "other" or "specific" scent companies do or the protocols they use to collect, bottle and distribute their products... I can only educate the consumer on the methods we use, and why we use those methods, then leave it up to consumer to form their own conclusion... 

With that being said, I want to thank everyone that has taken the time to read the information that I have posted in this thread..... I hope you have learned something about the world of deer urine and the many variations that it consists of....

Good luck this season and happy hunting.....


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## surnikis (Aug 28, 2007)

if doc's scent is always sent back then why is it in the bargin bin at Gander Mountain?


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## thespyhunter (Apr 8, 2005)

Great info here !!
Ordered some, will give it a shot. I would like to know if fresh really makes a difference or if scents altogether are just another gimmic.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Ohio Bow said:


> Thats why I only use Docs Scents. Always fresh. What isnt sold is sent back to Docs.


Wonder why Doc wants it back? Does he relabel and send you your same bottle back next year????? Just kidding! I don't know Doc. Probably a good product.

I didn't have an intelligent comment, so I made a stupid one!:wink: LOL


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## Paul Cataldo (Jul 31, 2004)

I would like to know if there is anyone here who has heard of "WifferTrails"????
This is a deer urine that is sold here in GA, and possibly other states? that is about $20 a bottle, and it is always sold right out of the refridgerator at two stores I know of.
The stuff looks, and smells like good stuff, but I have no idea what it really is, or how it's collected. I know I saw some bottles today, that were dated "10/3/07", so I know it probably isn't "Estrous Urine", but it is about the best looking stuff I've ever seen/smelt.
They have an advertisement that says you are "Guaranteed to see a 6pt or Better Buck"...
I know it sounds like a gimmick, but that's what they say. It's sold in about a 5-6" tall, round, mini-spray bottle, with a bright pink lable.
Anyone heard of it???
I think they have a website, but haven't Googled for it yet..
Just wondering. Maybe it's sold in other states besides GA???

EDIT:

Here's the website. Now HOW in the WORLD can they be selling "ESTROUS URINE" at THIS time of the year??? Is this not impossible??? Maybe I missed some of Stoneys facts up above, but I thought it had to be collected later in the year to be "ESTROUS URINE"????
http://wiffertrails.com/


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Paul Cataldo said:


> Here's the website. Now HOW in the WORLD can they be selling "ESTROUS URINE" at THIS time of the year??? Is this not impossible??? Maybe I missed some of Stoneys facts up above, but I thought it had to be collected later in the year to be "ESTROUS URINE"????
> http://wiffertrails.com/


Scroll up 5 posts to post 101. There he explains the difference in "Estrous" and "Estrus"


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## HuntSleepFish (May 8, 2005)

Wow I have to say also that this is the best post I have read so far this year. Very informative. Stony thx for taking the time to explain all this!


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## Running (Feb 5, 2006)

I agree ... great thread. It sounds like Stony doesn't consider himself an expert because there isn't a Ph.D after his name. However, I would much rather read and buy something from a person that can explain the facts and not just produce formulas that might not produce in the field. Bought a Stonycreek Hunter's Pack today to see how it works.


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## booger (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey stony how long does it take from the day you order until you receive the product? Is there a lag the later you order it - say if I order it Nov 1st would it take like 2 weeks to get? 

And I have to say knowledge is about the best way to sell a product, you know what you are doing (or it sounds very much like it) and this is a very smart way to do business. I mean look at how many people went out and bought hunting watches...and that is without the ridiculous amount of knowledge you just displayed.


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## DonnieBaker (Nov 18, 2005)

I just placed my order for the hunters pack. I'm stoked. I've used scent before with no success. If I just see a stud brought in with your scent it will be worth the effort. This has to be one of the most informative posts ever.


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## Paul Cataldo (Jul 31, 2004)

I have a couple questions before I place my order for the hunters pack from StoneyCreek.

1. How many times will I be able to go out hunting and use the TotalDraw (the expensive one, only sold in 1oz bottle)?? I mean, I know that most hunters usually overuse their scents, but 1 little oz is not much, and I would think a doe pees out more than 1 oz at a time, so wouldn't a hunter want to pour out a fair amount of urine, each time he hunts??? 
I guess I just want to know how many "servings" I will get out of the TotalDraw, before I drop $25??? LOL.

2. Is there a "Best" time of year I should place my order, or will I receive the same quality pee, regardless of when I place my order??

Thanks, and I understand you are busy Stoney, just thought I'd try a couple questions first... Thanks SO MUCH for all the info...


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## trebor69 (Jul 31, 2005)

Paul Cataldo said:


> I have a couple questions before I place my order for the hunters pack from StoneyCreek.
> 
> 1. How many times will I be able to go out hunting and use the TotalDraw (the expensive one, only sold in 1oz bottle)?? I mean, I know that most hunters usually overuse their scents, but 1 little oz is not much, and I would think a doe pees out more than 1 oz at a time, so wouldn't a hunter want to pour out a fair amount of urine, each time he hunts???
> I guess I just want to know how many "servings" I will get out of the TotalDraw, before I drop $25??? LOL.


Aint no way I am gunna be pouring out $20 bills on the forest floor.

I believe that the fresher the better...and know fresh isnt gunna be cheap...but $20 per hunt on scent just isnt in the budget.

I thought of buying some for my weeks vacation in Nov or maybe even splitting a 3pk with my hunting partner...but dividing it up into 1/4s in clean containers. Leave 3 in the cooler and use one...maybe even get 2 uses out of each one. I wouldnt pour it out....just open the container and place it near my stand.


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## HVAC/R Hunter (Aug 29, 2005)

I am going to be completely honest I do not have time to read all 3 pages of posts on this subject. I do however feel that I have some confirming evidence also, My wife's grandfather owns one of the largest deer farms in the area, and most definitely deer urine does not smell anything like the bottles sold at wal mart or dicks or bass pro. I am not saying those scents don't work, but I believe they are advertised as something other than what they are.

If you have a chance get it locally from real deer farmers, it will make a difference.


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

For you Southern Boys hunting southern whitetail deer check out the deer farm in Louisiana that collectes, bottles and distributes deer urine from southern whitetail deer. southernwhitetailscents.com


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## surnikis (Aug 28, 2007)

Ok I have been spot checking this post from time to time and there is more truth that hunters should consider when buying deer scent. I have the credentials because I do run one of the largest collection facilities in the midwest.We not only sell barrels to other companies but have a fresh frozen private label collected , frozen and immediatly shipped. Everything that the original author said is basically true, the fresher the better period end of story .....however what are you as a hunter going to do with it when you get it?Urine begins to break down as soon as it hits air, there is bacterial contamination also immediatly because it will come in contact with feces during the collection process(dont be fooled by pictures of artifical insemination being passed as urine collection it isnt done that way). when refrigerated at 33-42 degrees without a stablizer or preservative it will begin to spoil in in 2 days(yes 48 hours)after 3 days in the fridge it will begin to spook does(bucks dont really care) but who wants a doe out there stomping around. Some folks remove urine direct from shot does , this is more work than benifit because without the urine passing thru the vaginal opening you are not getting any pheromones. We use many different stablizers per our customers request and I believe that all are fine products and work well in there own right(if they never worked they would not sell ) But for the sake of argument , lets say you spend (with shipping )$20-$50 for a bottle of "fresh Urine" with no stablizer and put it in your back pack and take it hunting with you for a week or so, well you are probably doing more harm than good, not to mention throwing away some cash.Fresh urine spoils quicker than meat! and spoiled urine scares deer . I guess the point to this is it is not a magic potion, it is a tool that can work for you, if you take the time to learn it just as you learn to shoot. And for the record, we are currently collecting off of 100 does daily , that produces app 25-30 gals a day and if I cant get it out of the barn or some of our frozen out of the freezer .....I dont use it !Freezing stops the evaporation of the pheromones, and preserves it as the morning it is collected.


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## KSNimrod (Dec 14, 2004)

surnikis said:


> Fresh urine spoils quicker than meat! and spoiled urine scares deer .


Given that deer urinate frequently and I'm assuming don't add any "preservatives" to their own urine, why in the world would aging urine scare a deer? Wouldn't that cause problems for them in feeling secure anywhere?

I guess I can buy that old urine/scent isn't as effective as one may be led to believe, but I have a hard time thinking that it will actually scare the deer.


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## ParkerBow (Dec 4, 2006)

Was going to try something different this year when the rut hits. Since the wife is pregnant I was going to use some good old PP and see what happens

By the way PP stands for Pregnant P


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

Phermones are an interesting topic- Lots of people refer to them and make generalized statement concerning it's presence and its degradation. Phermones are not fully understood by the academic world much less the deer farmers and urine collectors. To make unscientific claims or remarks concerning phermones that can not be substanitated by scientific data is worthless,


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## surnikis (Aug 28, 2007)

My hypothisis on why urine that ages in a bottle tends to make deer shy away is that it does not age as it would when urine goes in the soil. Urine is more of a transport of messages (ever see a deer urinate on tarsals?)the glandular secretions and vaginal secretions are transported with the urine. When this goes from the deer to the soil or scrape, bacteria immediatly attack the urine leaving the other chemical messages behind(over a day or 2) When urine is kept in a bottle it breaks down with the bacteria present at the time of bottling.Ammonia is the by product of this breakdown. Ever notice how a gas station restroom reeks but if you are out hunting and urinate in the same place day after day it doesnt? same effect. You really dont have to believe me if you do not wish ....but if you take out old urine and Deer hang up or start blowing or you start not seeing anything dont say you were not warned, As I have told many people you may have 1 or 2 deer bust you , but how many knew you were there and just went around you that you never saw?That is why if you purchase a fresh urine to achieve the results that you want you must treat it as you would a food product and even then it has a short life.


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

Well- speculation and opinion may or maynot parallel the science. The degradation of urine is due to the chemical bonding between the nitrogen molecules in urine and the oxygen in the air. That is why oxygen starved urine does not degrade a fast as urine exposed to oxygen. Other factors do enter into the equation like, bacteria, heat etcc.
In conclusion, the bacteria found on a deer's hocks and the bacteria found in the dirt are same therefore urine degradation has nothing to do with messages! Let's not make this out to be anything more than it is-just pure ole' chemical reactions. By the way, I own a deer farm and I do sell freshly collected deer urine to hunters and I also inform and educate them to the necessary steps to ensure the integrity of the freshly collected urine so it last as long as possible. Also, to add an preservatives etc...only detracts from the urine's natural integrity. 
Sorry, for the long post but I hate "smoke and mirrors" and the scent industry has to much of it already!!!


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Paul Cataldo said:


> 1. How many times will I be able to go out hunting and use the TotalDraw (the expensive one, only sold in 1oz bottle)?? I mean, I know that most hunters usually overuse their scents, but 1 little oz is not much, and I would think a doe pees out more than 1 oz at a time, so wouldn't a hunter want to pour out a fair amount of urine, each time he hunts???
> I guess I just want to know how many "servings" I will get out of the TotalDraw, before I drop $25??? LOL.
> 
> 2. Is there a "Best" time of year I should place my order, or will I receive the same quality pee, regardless of when I place my order??
> ...


I will try not to intrude too much, but i know Stony is out of town and having laptop issues. I believe I remember seeing a post of his stating that for the sure draw (with vaginal excretion) that he suggests using on ly a small amount, like dipping a q-tip in the bottle. The other scents come in larger bottles, but 1 oz., 1 q-tip at a time should go a long ways.
I also know that as soon as the deer come into estrous, he can start collecting urine, but setting a date for orders and shipment is not really feasible, he is collecting now though so orders should be caught up soon and new orders processed in a very timely manner. He will ship the urine cold packed, priority mail (usually get mine in 2 days)



trebor69 said:


> Aint no way I am gunna be pouring out $20 bills on the forest floor.
> 
> I believe that the fresher the better...and know fresh isnt gunna be cheap...but $20 per hunt on scent just isnt in the budget.
> 
> I thought of buying some for my weeks vacation in Nov or maybe even splitting a 3pk with my hunting partner...but dividing it up into 1/4s in clean containers. Leave 3 in the cooler and use one...maybe even get 2 uses out of each one. I wouldnt pour it out....just open the container and place it near my stand.


Again, the urine comes in 4 oz. (I believe) bottles and I think it is about 9.99, not 20+. I generally spray a unscented tampon lightly, or hang a wick (35 mm cannister with a cotton ball in it) with a spray or two. You can use a little making a mock scrape, but I see no reason to dump a whole bottle ono the ground.


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## mike (Aug 20, 2002)

he mentioned that when the days are the darkest, 12hrs it starts the cycle.

how do i find out when that day was in KS.

thanks


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## LJA (Sep 19, 2005)

*Magic scents!!!!*

All of the breeding biochemistry background is great, but I have to agree with whoever mentioned earlier that most of the scent industry is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Man, we deer hunters are desperate for that magic potion that will lead a buck by the nose right to our shooting lanes. I have no problems with someone making money, but some of the claims are ridiculous.

*Who can refute the following statement? The chemical signal that makes an old buck run across an open field or highway in broad daylight CANNOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN BOTTLED! * 

The chemical signal is extremely specific, volatile, and short-lived. Why? Because it has to be to serve its purpose which is to let a buck know that 
A) a doe is ready to breed right now, and 
B) where she went if he can’t see her. 

And if he can’t see her, he can tell which way she walked because the signal is weaker in one direction than the other. That’s how fast this signal is weakening! I’m sure some of you have witnessed this in the woods. If he starts walking in the wrong direction, I’ve seen bucks turn and go the correct direction. If that scent lasted for hours and hours on end, breeding would be chaos. 

And finally, even if someone discovered and manufactured the exact chemical (or combination of chemicals) that does use, once you put them on the ground, the stuff would only be good for a VERY short time.


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

How much of using scent is pure luck?


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## Timber Hawk (Aug 31, 2007)

Stony I really appreciate your input. This is probably the most info I have gained on one tread and you have saved me alot of money buying store bought scents, thanks.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Scent free as possible play the wind and stay with the does. What could be better than the real thing. 

I enjoyed reading this post. It was a good one.


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

What makes a buck cross a road or a highway..hmmm..
I think its pee.

Seriously, I have taken bucks that followed my scent trail.
I'ts a lot like rattling. Most times it is futility.
But you catch them in the right frame of mind and it all comes together.

By the way, I got a lot more urine at a lot lower price this way. And it has to be fresher than the stuff at Wally world.

It beats hunting the moon phases any day....lol


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## LJA (Sep 19, 2005)

*not just pee*



> What makes a buck cross a road or a highway..hmmm..
> I think its pee.


Slay,
Not just any old pee or we'd see bucks chasing does across highways and across open fields at midday all the time. It's that chemical signal that makes them crazy. And my point is, it has never been bottled. There is nothing wrong with that or with trying to get the freshest doe urine one can get to try spur the curiousity of a buck to come looking. It's just the scent makers are starting to get a little old. The science behind it all is extremely weak, similar to some of the claims regarding "moon phases", as you mentioned. 
I understand your point about deer sometimes following a scent trail, and your rattling analogy is a good one. Sometimes they are curious, a day later they are super cautious. And that's what makes hunting! Good luck this year.


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## ParkerBow (Dec 4, 2006)

Stupid idea, but has anyone taking a doe and tryed to bottle what urine is in the bladder.


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## Hickory Creek Stalker (Aug 16, 2004)

ParkerBow said:


> Stupid idea, but has anyone taking a doe and tryed to bottle what urine is in the bladder.


I hear they do... but I also heard in this thread that you miss out on those vaginal secretions. You dont want to miss out on any of that!


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## urahicks2 (May 30, 2007)

well Stony... I have worked on a deer farm and help our Vet AI deer and the best thing I seen for scent is , they swap the inside of the uterus to clean a looking path to IM the doe. They pull out the swabs and it looks like a raw egg white clinging to the cotton patch.. we did about 175 doe and had many of these swabs. Wouldnt this be just as potent as urine?? Matter of fact... we had to pry the swabs out of the vets hands cause he used them too!!!!LOL


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

*He dies for a whiff of pee...*

LJA,
Even if it's curiosity only that draws one in, I am fine with that.
It's sort of like should I try vanilla or anise. I would rather use vanilla, cause I hate the taste of liquorish (sp)...LOL

Now there's an idea, kill a doe in estrus then swab the deck.
If only I could tell which one was vaginally ready.....:embara:


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Ohh, So now everyone is a "Deer Farmer" ....*

Well, it's really good to see the interest in this thread and the verity of different questions.... Here we go.... 



booger said:


> Hey stony how long does it take from the day you order until you receive the product? Is there a lag the later you order it - say if I order it Nov 1st would it take like 2 weeks to get?
> 
> And I have to say knowledge is about the best way to sell a product, you know what you are doing (or it sounds very much like it) and this is a very smart way to do business. I mean look at how many people went out and bought hunting watches...and that is without the ridiculous amount of knowledge you just displayed.


Booger,
The amount of time from when you order until you receive your scents all depends on the amount of orders that are back ordered... Right now we have a pretty good back order for the amount of urine we can collect. We collect the urine during the night and bottle it during the day. 

We only ship Monday thru Wednesday as we do not want the scents sitting in the post office on Sunday.. We try hard to have the scents to you in as early as 3 days from when they were collected... That's our goal...



DonnieBaker said:


> I just placed my order for the hunters pack. I'm stoked. I've used scent before with no success. If I just see a stud brought in with your scent it will be worth the effort. This has to be one of the most informative posts ever.


Donnie,
We don't bottle magic, only a tool that will help create an area of interest for the buck.... Try using the scents in a mock scrape and then start watching for other scrapes and rubs to be put out by the buck.... 





Paul Cataldo said:


> I have a couple questions before I place my order for the hunters pack from StoneyCreek.
> 
> 1. How many times will I be able to go out hunting and use the TotalDraw (the expensive one, only sold in 1oz bottle)?? I mean, I know that most hunters usually overuse their scents, but 1 little oz is not much, and I would think a doe pees out more than 1 oz at a time, so wouldn't a hunter want to pour out a fair amount of urine, each time he hunts???
> I guess I just want to know how many "servings" I will get out of the TotalDraw, before I drop $25??? LOL.
> ...


Paul,
Answer to your question #1;
That all depends on how you use the TotalDraw... I use the TotalDraw as my last resort and primarily use the BuckDraw and MaxDraw urines for most of my setups.. I only use TotalDraw for the chase phase when the buck are running doe... Again, I am working scrapes and rubs and trying to imitate a rival buck intruding into another buck's territory and I use more buck urine than I do doe urine....

Answer to question #2
No.... the urines are never the same from day to day... As I type this the bucks testosterone levels are continuing to rise. The doe are about 1 1/2 - 2 weeks into their estrous cycles and the levels of hormones are constantly changing. I would suggest ordering about a week prior to when you plan on deploying the scents.... Keep in mind, we are trying to get you the best possible urine to coincide with the seasonal cycles of the deer, but we can not match the day to day, only get you close, like within a few days....






surnikis said:


> Ok I have been spot checking this post from time to time and there is more truth that hunters should consider when buying deer scent. I have the credentials because I do run one of the largest collection facilities in the midwest.


Ok, you bring up some very interesting points and I will break down your reply and address each of your points... First, it's nice to see another fellow deer farming "publically admitting" to be a deer farmer... Most hide their heads as though they are doing something wrong... Secondly, I will not doubt your credentials or turn this into a "peeing match" with you. I hope to exchange information in a professional manner that will help educate folks as to what it is they are purchasing... 




surnikis said:


> We not only sell barrels to other companies but have a fresh frozen private label collected , frozen and immediatly shipped.


surnikis,
have you noticed that when you freeze the urine that the top 2/3's freezes clear and the bottom 1/3 freezes a darker color? Do you think freezing separates the make up the urine? You would think that maybe centrifuging the urine before freezing would help this as blood is centrifuged before freezing to keep the plasma and cells from separating during the crystallization which happens during the freezing process? 



surnikis said:


> Everything that the original author said is basically true, the fresher the better period end of story .....


What I said is not basically true, it is true.... 



surnikis said:


> however what are you as a hunter going to do with it when you get it?


This is why we include "reusable" freezer packs with each and every order we ship... We recommend reusing the freezer pack to keep your scents cool while you are hunting.... Everyone comes back in after a long day of hunting, all they have to do is put the scents back in the fridge and place the gel pack back in the freezer and do it all over again the next day.... 




surnikis said:


> Urine begins to break down as soon as it hits air, there is bacterial contamination also immediatly because it will come in contact with feces during the collection process


I agree with you 100%.... This is one of the reasons we did not start collecting early this year due to the hot weather that we had up until Wednesday. We take advantage of the cooler temps at night to help begin the cool down process. Also, we utilize separation screens that tilt and roll the larger portion of feces to a collection trough away from the collection pans. I have yet to see a deer urinate and defecate at the same time.... We have the feces and hair contamination pretty much minimized.... 



surnikis said:


> (dont be fooled by pictures of artifical insemination being passed as urine collection it isnt done that way).


Agreed, urine collection is not done that way, but the vaginal secretions are collected under the same protocols using the same equipment. We use speculums as our means of gathering the mucous that we then dip q-tips into and then add the the bottle. You really think I would put actual pictures of our collection facility and methods on here with the "competition" lurking? :wink:




surnikis said:


> when refrigerated at 33-42 degrees without a stablizer or preservative it will begin to spoil in in 2 days(yes 48 hours)after 3 days in the fridge it will begin to spook does(bucks dont really care) but who wants a doe out there stomping around.


Adding preservatives.... are you talking about the preservatives that were developed for the urology labs and then were marketed about 3 years ago to the scent collectors? Or are you talking about the sodium benzoate that is largely used in the trapping industry? I tried the sodium benzoate and could smell a difference.. I had several samples of the urology preservative/stabilzer as well, but I could tell the difference in smell. As far as refrigerating the urine, this is the only thing that I have found to preserve the urine for a short amount of time. Yes, as I stated many posts back, I ran a Ph test on the urine. The urine in the fridge did in fact raise in ph, but at a much slower rate than that left at room temp..... 




surnikis said:


> Some folks remove urine direct from shot does , this is more work than benifit because without the urine passing thru the vaginal opening you are not getting any pheromones.


I agree to an extent... The urethra of a doe is located just inside the vulva of the doe. From my limited understanding, pheromones are very short lived when exposed to the air. Now, it may be possible to collect and bottle pheromones, but what good would they do when you crack the bottle and apply them if they only last for a few seconds? I strongly feel that the buck is able to detect the estrogen in the urine that is left by the doe. And if you raise deer then I know your buck are currently scent checking (flehmen sniffing) every spot where the doe has urinated....



surnikis said:


> We use many different stablizers per our customers request and I believe that all are fine products and work well in there own right(if they never worked they would not sell ) But for the sake of argument , lets say you spend (with shipping )$20-$50 for a bottle of "fresh Urine" with no stablizer and put it in your back pack and take it hunting with you for a week or so, well you are probably doing more harm than good, not to mention throwing away some cash.Fresh urine spoils quicker than meat! and spoiled urine scares deer . I guess the point to this is it is not a magic potion, it is a tool that can work for you, if you take the time to learn it just as you learn to shoot. And for the record, we are currently collecting off of 100 does daily , that produces app 25-30 gals a day and if I cant get it out of the barn or some of our frozen out of the freezer .....I dont use it !Freezing stops the evaporation of the pheromones, and preserves it as the morning it is collected.


See all of the above replies regarding stabilizers and preservatives... I do agree that 100% pure urine is a tool and not a magic potion... Holy Moly, 100 doe a day? You bottling by hand or are you using bottling equipment? We are getting anywhere from 3/4 to a little over a gallon from one doe and only have 4 doe in our daily collections plus we hand bottle and ship the urine each day, no need to freeze. We only collect what we need to fill orders. Now that I think about it, you have to have one heck of a feed bill to carry for the year? If my calculations are correct and the average deer eats 4 pounds a day - Holy smokes thats 400 pound a day or 12,000 pound per month. Convert that to tons and you should be going through 6 ton of feed a month. And at an average cost of $350 per ton..... Man, I would hate to have a $2100 per month feed bill, let alone the Vet Bill for TB and Brucellosis Testing, not to mention vaccines.. You are testing for TB and Bruc aren't you? I surely would hope so if you are moving that much urine around the country each day... How about CWD monitoring? Whats your status? Just curious is all.... 

By the way, My name is John Swank of Stonycreek Whitetails - Nice to meet you... I know an awful lot of deer farmers around the country that are active in NADeFA... I may even know who you are if you'd be so kind as introduce yourself........ 

Ohh yea, you wouldn't happen to be in the market for some semen from a 303 3/8" Buck, would you? We just collected this bad boy on Thursday morning (yea, thats me)... I may also be able to stop by your place and A/I for you on my way from Michigan to Louisiana in mid November .... The second picture is a 266 7/8" buck along with our group of professionals collecting semen from him.... yea, thats me holding the antlers.... 

_*** PLEASE NOTE: These buck are NOT dead and I am in NO way trying to represent the harvest of these buck. Thes pictures were taken on Thursday Morning while the animals were still immobilized while semen was collected... The animals were given the reversal after the pictures were taken and within 15 minutes they were back on their feet... This is what I do day in and day out this time of year, along with traveling the country artificially inseminating doe and of course - collecting urine and hunting in my free time. _


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Sorry, had to answer questions in a double post....*

Sorry, had everyone's questions answered in one reply but due to maximum characters per post, I had to double post...... 




KSNimrod said:


> Given that deer urinate frequently and I'm assuming don't add any "preservatives" to their own urine, why in the world would aging urine scare a deer? Wouldn't that cause problems for them in feeling secure anywhere?
> 
> I guess I can buy that old urine/scent isn't as effective as one may be led to believe, but I have a hard time thinking that it will actually scare the deer.


I am not talking about scaring the deer, I am talking about making a deer believe that another deer has frequented the area a short time ago and not a year ago...





pdaddy said:


> Phermones are an interesting topic- Lots of people refer to them and make generalized statement concerning it's presence and its degradation. Phermones are not fully understood by the academic world much less the deer farmers and urine collectors. To make unscientific claims or remarks concerning phermones that can not be substanitated by scientific data is worthless,


Absolutely correct, in my opinion... The first person to capture the sex pheromone from a deer is going to insure many generations of his heirs a wealthy lifestyle... I have not once made claims to pheromones because as you said there is NO scientific data to substantiate it... This is why I focused my attention on the actual urine composition.... More data to substantiate my claims... 

As for deer farmers making accusations, I do have a bit of a background in reproductive physiology and have sat in on workshops with veterinarians and biologist that were taking the same course. Not to mention the networking with DVM's that I frequently talk with about semen collection and assisted reproduction.. I'm not blowing my own horn here, just stating my credentials as I resent your discrediting remarks.... 





pdaddy said:


> The degradation of urine is due to the chemical bonding between the nitrogen molecules in urine and the oxygen in the air. That is why oxygen starved urine does not degrade a fast as urine exposed to oxygen. Other factors do enter into the equation like, bacteria, heat etcc.
> In conclusion, the bacteria found on a deer's hocks and the bacteria found in the dirt are same therefore urine degradation has nothing to do with messages! Let's not make this out to be anything more than it is-just pure ole' chemical reactions. By the way, I own a deer farm and I do sell freshly collected deer urine to hunters and I also inform and educate them to the necessary steps to ensure the integrity of the freshly collected urine so it last as long as possible. Also, to add an preservatives etc...only detracts from the urine's natural integrity.
> Sorry, for the long post but I hate "smoke and mirrors" and the scent industry has to much of it already!!!


I agree with you concerning the air.... However, according to wikipedia and their definition of the flehmen response - "This behavior allows animals to detect scents, for example from urine, of other members of their species or clues to the presence of prey. Flehming allows the animals to determine several factors, including the presence or absence of estrus, the physiological state of the animal, and how long ago the animal passed by." 

This would indicate to me that the breaking down of the urine is the indicator.. But this is just my opinion of course.... 





fasst said:


> I will try not to intrude too much, but i know Stony is out of town and having laptop issues. I believe I remember seeing a post of his stating that for the sure draw (with vaginal excretion) that he suggests using on ly a small amount, like dipping a q-tip in the bottle. The other scents come in larger bottles, but 1 oz., 1 q-tip at a time should go a long ways.
> I also know that as soon as the deer come into estrous, he can start collecting urine, but setting a date for orders and shipment is not really feasible, he is collecting now though so orders should be caught up soon and new orders processed in a very timely manner. He will ship the urine cold packed, priority mail (usually get mine in 2 days)
> 
> 
> Again, the urine comes in 4 oz. (I believe) bottles and I think it is about 9.99, not 20+. I generally spray a unscented tampon lightly, or hang a wick (35 mm cannister with a cotton ball in it) with a spray or two. You can use a little making a mock scrape, but I see no reason to dump a whole bottle ono the ground.


Man Fasst, you are sorta on the right track..... :wink: The Q-tip is actually included in the bottle and this contains the vaginal secretions... Geezzzz..  Thanks for helping out though and I will clear it up... 

The TotalDraw is a one once bottle simply because the doe is only in estrus for 12-24 hours every 26-28 days... We use very successful A/I protocols to synchronize the estrous cycles of the doe. At the time of collection, should I introduce semen, there is a 80% chance the doe will conceive. I don't know how much more in "heat" the doe needs to be when she will conceive 80% of the time with frozen semen... 

I mainly use the TotalDraw for scent trails via trail drags and then hang the trail drag about 15 yards from my tree... I mostly use BuckDraw and MaxDraw for most of my setups. I only use TotalDraw during the chase phase, but thats just me.... 





LJA said:


> All of the breeding biochemistry background is great, but I have to agree with whoever mentioned earlier that most of the scent industry is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Man, we deer hunters are desperate for that magic potion that will lead a buck by the nose right to our shooting lanes. I have no problems with someone making money, but some of the claims are ridiculous.
> 
> *Who can refute the following statement? The chemical signal that makes an old buck run across an open field or highway in broad daylight CANNOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN BOTTLED! *
> 
> ...


I agree.... Have you ever witnessed a doe doing a rub-urination where she urinates on her tarsals? The urine soaks her tarsals and the hair of her legs. As she walks, more urine is being dropped on the ground from where she started walking from. As she get further away, less urine is dripping off her legs... This is why I always start in the area Im hunting and pull my scent trails away.... 

Also, please review the hormonal chart again and note the hormone levels leading up to ovulation..... This is the reason I feel the buck chase and lock up with a doe.... I feel he is able to detect the hormones that are showing up in the urine, via his vomeronasal organ.... 












urahicks2 said:


> well Stony... I have worked on a deer farm and help our Vet AI deer and the best thing I seen for scent is , they swap the inside of the uterus to clean a looking path to IM the doe. They pull out the swabs and it looks like a raw egg white clinging to the cotton patch.. we did about 175 doe and had many of these swabs. Wouldnt this be just as potent as urine?? Matter of fact... we had to pry the swabs out of the vets hands cause he used them too!!!!LOL


Good deal... Glad you got to experience first hand what I have spent the last few weeks explaining.... Yes, the cloudy mucous that you seen running out of the speculum is the secretions that I collect and add to each bottle that were collected from the same doe. Although, the mucous is not collected from the uterus, it is collected from the vagina. Separating the uterus from the vagina is the cervix, which is about one to one and a half inches long and has from 5-7 folds of tissue called the cervical folds... Unless you were witnessing Laparoscopic A/I, the secretions were collected from the vagina. 


Thanks for all the different opinions and questions. Like I said, I enjoy explaining what I have learned and believe to be correct about the collection of deer "pee". I explain how we do the collecting and why we use the protocols we do.... It's up to you to decide if scents are something you want to try....


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

*me so horny....*

This is great. There really hasn't been any arguementative statements here. Just the differences in using stabilizers/preservatives and freezing versus refrigerated or maybe the collection process. Each person has to work with that they believe will work/sell best to the consumer.

*Only one statement here..I do not know a single person who thinks that just because they put out some doe in heat urine, that bucks will automatically come running.*

Ya'll have to give us die hard passionate hunters more credit than that. We understand that it is just another tool like rattling antlers, or using a grunt tube.

The thing is...it's like picking a sattelite TV or a cable company. If it works, then I probably will not switch companies, and they have my guaranteed business for a long time. Even if I get a bad signal once in a while.
With doe urine, all it takes is to have one nice buck come by smelling your scent trail or stepping in your mock scrape to make you a loyal customer.

For years all I used was Tinks, cause it worked for me twice. Then it was Code Blue, cause it worked for me once. I am branching out now, because I am ready to experiment. I know that scents can work, I'm just trying to see if fresh urine works better than off the shelf stuff. Who knows, mayb frozen urine will be next on my list. (though, it doesnt appeal to me personnaly)

So, no magic potion here, none is expected. All I want is a fresh, uncontaminated, and unaltered bottle of this "snake oil"

Thanks to all of you deer farmers/whitetail experimentors for giving us options that we did not have our younger days.:cocktail:


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## hoyt-assasin (Sep 10, 2007)

fasst said:


> I agree. I have a friend who does this as well, he is a sponsor here as a matter of fact. If I remember right, the urine, when kept cold, stays good for about 4 weeks (may be months, cant remember) Anyways, he refuses to sell to stores, only cold shipped straight to the customer. Amazing how different fresh urine smells than the stuff I was using until I met him.


 Would love to hear some feed back on who I can get the real stuff from!


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

Well, I can think of a few places......?


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## trebor69 (Jul 31, 2005)

hoyt-assasin said:


> Would love to hear some feed back on who I can get the real stuff from!


hahaha only thing I will say is...

you obviously didn't read this thread


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## trebor69 (Jul 31, 2005)

The one problem I see. In the quest for the freshest urine possible we lose right from the get-go not being able to order and recieve a couple days later.

Mostly due to reasons described above...timing the collection...backorder...shipping times etc. It just probably would not be practical(or affordable) to have faster and more reliable ship times.

I wouldn't mind trying some for my vacations coming up in Nov. But with unknown ship dates and such it presents a dilemma.

If I order now and somehow Stony gets caught up and I receive it this week. Then I will have it sitting in the fridge for 2 weeks before my 2 week vacation even starts....and it will be 4 weeks old toward then end of my vacation.

If I wait to order in hopes of having the freshest urine possible for my vacation...I risk a delayed ship date and not receiving it before I leave on my vacation.

ohhh to live in a perfect world hahaha


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

The other day I took a scent dripper with Whitetail Institute's Active Scrape and another with Southern Whiitetail Scent (Estrous X fresh P)...Both were hit hard over 4 days. But the fresh pee dripper was DESTROYED!! Something pulled it down and ate most of it!! I will be buying more "fresh" pee soon!!
When the bucks are rutting I don't think they care!!!

Here (South of ST. Louis) we are not evenin the chasing phase.. I found my first scrape yesterday...but it is a there every year.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Very true and this is the dilemma....*



trebor69 said:


> The one problem I see. In the quest for the freshest urine possible we lose right from the get-go not being able to order and recieve a couple days later.
> 
> Mostly due to reasons described above...timing the collection...backorder...shipping times etc. It just probably would not be practical(or affordable) to have faster and more reliable ship times.
> 
> ...


We are usually pretty good at keeping up with the orders and getting them sent out within a few days. However, this year with the unseasonably hot weather, we are a little backed up. Plus with all the orders we got from the folks here at AT, it hammered us. 

We only ship Monday thru Wednesday and occasionally on Thursday if the order is being shipped close and we know it will get there by Saturday. 

The way it looks, we "should" be caught up by Wednesday/Thursday of the coming week providing the deer cooperate and give us good quantities of urine.... 

Sorry for the delay folks... We are working as fast as we can to get you your orders as quickly as possible....


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*Thats exactly what I look for...*



MoNofletch said:


> The other day I took a scent dripper with Whitetail Institute's Active Scrape and another with Southern Whiitetail Scent (Estrous X fresh P)...Both were hit hard over 4 days. But the fresh pee dripper was DESTROYED!! Something pulled it down and ate most of it!! I will be buying more "fresh" pee soon!!
> When the bucks are rutting I don't think they care!!!
> 
> Here (South of ST. Louis) we are not evenin the chasing phase.. I found my first scrape yesterday...but it is a there every year.


MoNofletch,
That is exactly the response I expect when I create mock scrapes.. It is surprising how fast an area will get torn up from all the activity that is being created.... :wink:


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

I anticipated the backorder status so I ordered after the first week of October just to be sure. HA!:tongue:
I do not mind it possibly being 2 weeks old.


TREBOR,
Look at it this way, order now, and its still fresher than any off the shelf stuff and cheaper and the quantity is higher per bottle.:secret:

Hoytassasin,
You really need to start at the very first post and work your way down....lol


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## Fortancient (Jan 9, 2006)

[/QUOTE]

What monsters! Urine from that big boy may scare all the 170 class deer away!!!:wink:

Great post, I appreciate all of the info!


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

I've been thinking..........and it hurts

If I had a choice between the 2. I would rather have inferior buck urine instead of dominate buck urine.... 
Have you ever thought of bottling that?

Like another said, pee from those 2 bucks would probably scare the poop out of the "Monster" 120 class bucks around here.....


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Stoney, I bet your business has double in the past week because of this thread...............:darkbeer:

What better marketing than coming on here and explaining all of this to us............


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

This may have been posted before and I missed it but anyways,

How does light effect freshness of the urines. Everyone has allways read about brown bottles keep it fresher and all. 
Whats your take?


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

Ya know, I bought and used a bottle of Still Steamin buck semen once in NJ several years ago, and havnt seen it since. Since it is an off the shelf type stuff, I wonder, what was really in that bottle....


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*I have been getting a lot of inquiries....*

Due to the number of inquiries that I have been receiving over the last week in regards to "how to deploy", I figured I would dig up some of the previous posts that I have made on other forums.... 

Here we go.....

Keep in mind, I have only been working with Mock Scrapes for a few years now, but I like what I'm seeing.

I start out by watching for bachelor groups during the summer. Here in Pa, ground hogs are in season through the summer and I take the gun along and pop hogs while I take notice to the bucks entering the fields to feed in the evening. Once I locate a nice buck that I want to hunt, I start patterning his feed habits and the times he is entering the fields. You'd be surprised at how consistent a buck is in his feed patterns going into the fall. I can almost set my watch to the times they enter the field, at least within 15-30 minutes.

Our archery season usually starts around the first of October. From what I've been seeing, the older dominant bucks will leave the group first and the smaller submissive bucks will stay grouped up for some time. So I start to hunt based solely on the food patterns that the buck have been exercising all summer. By watching the buck during the summer, I have a good idea of which trails they normally use to enter the field and this gives me an idea of where I need to setup. I usually setup about 75-150 from the edge of the field, usually where several trails intersect. On my walks to find a location like this, I am always scouting for scrapes every time I enter or leave the woods.

I have also found that the dominant buck will actually move to areas where there is a pretty good group of doe, so take this into consideration and watch for the doe as well during the summer/fall. As soon as I find an area that has several scrapes in close proximity, this is where I'll setup. I'll start getting in the woods like 2 hours before daylight just so I can sit there and listen for the tale-tale signs of a buck walking, working a scrape or making a rub. This is valuable information as it give me an idea of which direction the buck is approaching from, thus it lets me know where I need to focus on placing a scrape. Keep in mind, a buck usually hits his scrapes about 1/2 hour before daylight and a half hour after dark.

Now that I have an idea of which direction the buck approaches his scrape, I can wait it out until around 11:00AM and then make a mock scrape. I usually make the mock scrape and leave the area alone until the next morning, where I just climb my tree and sit and wait, hoping to catch the buck a little after sun up still working the area over. Some times it works but for the most part the buck moves through under the cover of darkness. As the sun comes up this is usually where I get a good look at the area and start noticing fresh rubs and scrapes everywhere. This is what I am ultimately trying to achieve, creating an area of interest for the bucks to frequent.

Then it's just a matter of keeping the bucks interested by making scent trails and keeping your mock scrape active. I will throw in a another mock scrape or two and even make a few rubs to make it more appealing and challenge the buck even more. Keep in mind, you are scenting the areas and making the scrapes during mid day.

I will usually keep this up until the end of October and then this is when I bring a doe into the picture by dumping doe urine in the mock scrape and using buck and doe urine, make scent trails. I feel I am already challenging the buck on his will to claim territory, and by bringing a doe into the picture I feel that i am sending a message that the doe are choosing me over him.... I always start a scrape with buck urine and work it a week or so only with buck urine BEFORE I bring in a doe.... If I can't get the buck to show himself during the day with the MaxDraw doe urine and I notice a little chase starting up, I will then bring in the TotalDraw and dump it in or close to the mock scrape and pull scent trails... Once doe urine is added to a scrape, I feel it becomes a breeding scrape..... -See the scrape setup illustrations below-....

I usually tag out by the end of October, if a shot presents itself, by using this setup. For the last couple years, I have a nice buck come into this setup during the daylight hours, before breeding activity really kicks in. It to me, is a very successful setup and has put some nice buck within bow range.

I feel that early season scrapes are nothing more than a "marker" that defines a bucks territory or boundary. In early season as buck are splitting up from bachelor groups, they begin to establish territory. By making a scrape and then urinating in it, it gives the scrape a odor signature of the buck that made it.

Keep in mind that a bucks territory is surrounded on all side by other bucks that are claiming territory and sometimes these area's "overlap". When I come across an area that has multiple scrapes and rubs, I feel this is an area that is being battled over by the neighboring bucks. In a sense, the bucks are pushing each other around in a battle for the real estate and the doe it holds. I have seen evidence of some hard fought battles occurring in these areas.

What I look for in addition to the scrapes, or a scrape line as many call it, is rubs in close proximity to these scrapes. I feel that all bucks, of every age including bucks fawns from the same year, will make rubs. Rubs that are along feeding trails and in areas that one might consider a staging area, are the least of my concern. I am after the dominant buck and a buck of any age or social standing will make rubs. However, I feel that when a rub is in close proximity to a scrape, it is a warning rub put there as a message that the dominant buck in the area is willing to fight to keep this area.

So, when I find an area that has several scrapes with rubs in close proximity, I feel that this area is an area of interest for several buck and they are trying to establish who the law dog is. This is when I use mock scrapes and feel that mock scrapes are the most productive.

I will usually make a mock or "man made" scrape within 20-50 yards of the natural scrape, taking the rubs into consideration. I will look for a location to make a mock scrape that has an overhanging branch that is about 48-60 inches above the ground. As I dump the buck urine in the scrape, I make sure I am dumping it on the overhanging branch and the urine is falling into the scrape. I have my trail drag attached to my boot and it is in the scrape and the urine is soaking into it as well as the ground. Then I use the trail drag and run scent trials about 80-100 in each direction.

I will hunt this location 3 days on and 3 days off, freshening the scrape and pulling scent trails around 10:30 -11:00am each time I'm hunting. After about 2 days of working this mock scrape, there will usually be "other" scrapes made along with many new rubs in the area. This is what I'm looking for.... I got the bucks attention.

Now I'll keep pushing him around with mock scrapes and I'll even throw in a few mock rubs and spray buck urine on the rubs. By now, I usually have the dominant buck pretty worked up and this is when I bring a doe into the picture. Now is when I will put doe urine in the mock scrape and use both buck and doe urine to make scent trails. I'm trying to simulate a buck trailing a doe.

This setup has been a very successful setup for me. Since 2002, when I first started playing around with scrapes, I have taken 2 buck that have made the Pa record book. Last year I held a 12 point that was in the 130-135" range in a 20-30 acre piece of woods all archery season. I had him within bow range on 3 different occasions but due to branches and trees, I wasn't able to get a clean shot at him. On the first day of PA rifle season, we jumped the buck on our early morning walk to our stands and wasn't able to get a legal shot. This buck was killed the second day of rifle season not more than 200 yards from where I worked him all archery season with mock scrapes and deer urine.

Mock scrapes work, but the biggest challenge is getting the buck to hit them through the day. I feel if you dress the scrapes mid day, the buck will usually venture out sometime though the day to check the area. Hunting scrapes requires a lot of tree time and is not the 1 day magic setup. Last year I hunted hard all archery season and still came up empty handed, but I did have the buck within bow range on 3 different occasions during legal shooting hours....

Good luck and give the mock scrape a try. You just might be surprised at the results....


The above is how I usually setup for a mock scrape, but last year I did something a little different due to having some friends up from NC. There wasn't a rub or scrape to be found in the 20-30 acre piece of woods we were hunting. The middle of October when we were spotlighting, I seen two nice buck battling it out in one of the fields next to the patch of woods. I decided that the following morning I was going to try and claim the territory first by placing a mock scrape and pull a few scent trails. Again, I knew the patterns pretty well and which trails the doe were using to gain access to the fields. So I found a little transition area between two thickets that I knew was a buck run. This is where I chose to put the mock scrape. It was on the western side of the thicket, as most dominant or older buck like to scent check scrapes from cover, and the prevailing wind is from west to east.

It only took a few hours before it got the bucks attention. This area at the end of archery season had 9 scrapes that were made and 3 mock scrapes that I made. I would feel comfortable on betting that there were close to 30 rubs in an 80 yard radius. It was one of the best results to a mock scrape that I have seen thus far. 

Give the mock scrape a try and see what happens... Who knows, it may work as well for you as it has for me...

Here are some illustrated setups that I use.....


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## pdaddy (Jul 3, 2006)

MoNoFletch- This is the same behavior we have seen over the last three years using fresh deer urine. We agree with Stony- fresh is best! that is why we collect fresh deer urine on our farm, bottle and ship it refrigerated. We too, ship with reusable cold packs and agree that the best days for shipping are Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, as not to have the package sit in warehouse storage over a weekend.
We collect from 15 hand raised does so we don't have a backorder problem with our Hyper P, Hyper Rage and Hyper Estrous X. Our Hyper Heat ( freshly collected does estrous urine) becomes available when our does start their heat cycles , usually the first week in November.
check us out at southernwhitetailscent.com


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## KSNimrod (Dec 14, 2004)

Stonycreek said:


> I am not talking about scaring the deer, I am talking about making a deer believe that another deer has frequented the area a short time ago and not a year ago...


I'm with you on this. I think deer are able to determine how "fresh" sign is. What I disagree with is guys who ascribe supernatural powers to them. Every year I hear guys say, "He hit the spot where I put (insert scent here) and spooked! Had to be the scent." when in reality it was more likely THEIR scent that spooked the deer. Old urine is old urine. It occurs quite a bit in nature. I have yet to see a deer say, "By golly, that smells like a vintage 2003 Tink's Draw 2!" But I have seen them stop just long enough to get a shot off.

I may try to get some scent from you in November. I've got a new Boss Buck decoy that I think would work well with it.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Stoney thanks for putting in about 30 minutes of your crazy afternoon to talk to me about your scent and how to use it!!!! It appears to me that you are running top notch business and I am glad to see that you are only located about 40 miles from my house!!!

I am really looking forward to getting out and making my mock scrapes and seeing what happens....I will be posting updates, hopefully daily of my progress with your scents!!! I am going to do like you said and use only the buck scent in my scrapes and then starting around the 25th I'm going to add the doe scent along with the buck scent!!!

Thanks again for all of you time and great customer service!!!!

ERic


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

pdaddy said:


> MoNoFletch- This is the same behavior we have seen over the last three years using fresh deer urine. We agree with Stony- fresh is best! that is why we collect fresh deer urine on our farm, bottle and ship it refrigerated. We too, ship with reusable cold packs and agree that the best days for shipping are Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, as not to have the package sit in warehouse storage over a weekend.
> We collect from 15 hand raised does so we don't have a backorder problem with our Hyper P, Hyper Rage and Hyper Estrous X. Our Hyper Heat ( freshly collected does estrous urine) becomes available when our does start their heat cycles , usually the first week in November.
> check us out at southernwhitetailscent.com


 Yep! I used a some of the Hyper Estrous X in a mock scape! Great stuff! I will be ordering some more soon.


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## Myk (Nov 19, 2003)

When I lifted my doe up to the ATV Saturday she let loose. 
It sure didn't smell sweet. It smelled just like what you buy. 

I have poured out a brand (that I can't find any more) of estrous enough times and had a rutting buck come up down wind too many times to be coincidence or "impossible".
I think you need to find what works for your area. I know a lot of people who swear by Tinks, I've only had reason to swear at it.


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## kc outdoorsman (Oct 4, 2007)

Stony
Hey I have been reading you very informative posts. My question is about the ability of deer to "read" urine smells. I have heard all the opinions about human urine and have my own thoughts. Since you have first hand knowledge of deer and proabbly have put it to the "test" do you feel that human urine spooks deer? I can smell the stronger odor soemtimes of coffee, and certain foods... thus one wonders if you are not a vegetarian as deer are wouldn't they realize a foreign odor- but are they spooked by it?

Thanks for all your answers!


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*I tried last year......*



kc outdoorsman said:


> Stony
> Hey I have been reading you very informative posts. My question is about the ability of deer to "read" urine smells. I have heard all the opinions about human urine and have my own thoughts. Since you have first hand knowledge of deer and proabbly have put it to the "test" do you feel that human urine spooks deer? I can smell the stronger odor soemtimes of coffee, and certain foods... thus one wonders if you are not a vegetarian as deer are wouldn't they realize a foreign odor- but are they spooked by it?
> 
> Thanks for all your answers!


Last year this very same question came up on another forum. I was determined to find out what would happen so I made a mock scrape and urinated in it... I kept a close eye on the area and didn't find any new rubs or scrapes. However, the deer would walk past it like nothing was there... 

From what I have seen, I don't think human urine spooks nor attracts deer... Just my opinion.... :wink:

By the way, check out the live cam that we have over looking our food plots... A lot of scraping and flehmen sniffing going on.... Looks like things are picking up..... Live Deer Cams with Night Vision


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## coop (Oct 22, 2003)

*Monster buck urine??*

Stony, I was about to order some of your buck scent but I noticed that in the description it states that this is urine collected from your dominant buck. Is that the buck in the pic above? If so I would be very hisitant to purchase this because that thing is an absolute monster and would likely scare off every buck in my area for quite a ways. Would you agree with that? I'm curious to know your thoughts on dominant lures used in areas that don't have B&C bucks everywhere and why you do not offer a less dominant buck urine scent as someone else mentioned. Either way, I look forward to ordering your Total Draw when the rut gets a little closer. Thanks.


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## Cthuntfish (Sep 9, 2005)

*No preservatives*

Ok so I've read the entire thread multiple times and I've ordered the 3 pack. I wasn't really thinking about it when I ordered it though and now I'll be leaving for vacation from Oct. 25-Nov 4. I know the order has been shipped and should be here before the end of the week. 

Knowing that I'm leaving for vacation, should I freeze the urine until I get back? I've read the explanations a few times, but at this point I guess I have no options, correct?


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

*Size doesnt always matter...*

I dunno Coop, my gut tells me that a mature buck is the same as a dominant buck as far as urine goes. Kinda like when you wernt old enough to pee yellow. After a certain age, your liver, kidneys, etc. processes differently and your diet and metabolism alter things.

So basically, I believe a dominate buck has nothing going for him that any other mature buck has going for him. Despite what headgear he may be sporting around town.

Man, this is one of the longest topics I have ever seen.
Who woulda thought pee would generate such interest. I sure wish I could buy it by the half gallon....LOL


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

CThuntfish,
I believe that Stoney stated that he is against the freezing because he noticed that it seemd to separate into layers. He did say to refrigerate it for up to 2-3 months.

Mine will be gone in a month no matter what. Our season in Pa is short, so I will not be saving any for the "secondary" rut


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

coop said:


> Stony, I was about to order some of your buck scent but I noticed that in the description it states that this is urine collected from your dominant buck. Is that the buck in the pic above? If so I would be very hisitant to purchase this because that thing is an absolute monster and would likely scare off every buck in my area for quite a ways. Would you agree with that? I'm curious to know your thoughts on dominant lures used in areas that don't have B&C bucks everywhere and why you do not offer a less dominant buck urine scent as someone else mentioned. Either way, I look forward to ordering your Total Draw when the rut gets a little closer. Thanks.


You do bring up a good question about dominant bucks, however, a buck like in the picture will NEVER see the inside of a collection stall. Buck of that caliber are used for "breeding purposes" only and are way to valuable to risk stressing or injuring. Those type of buck are used to breed and produce other big buck to be sold as breeding stock....

The buck that are used for urine collection are our mature buck (2 and 3 year olds) that do not make the breeding standards. For the record, that buck in the picture is 5 years old... He has a long life ahead of him just growing antler and breeding doe, plus giving us collections of semen each year... 





Cthuntfish said:


> Ok so I've read the entire thread multiple times and I've ordered the 3 pack. I wasn't really thinking about it when I ordered it though and now I'll be leaving for vacation from Oct. 25-Nov 4. I know the order has been shipped and should be here before the end of the week.
> 
> Knowing that I'm leaving for vacation, should I freeze the urine until I get back? I've read the explanations a few times, but at this point I guess I have no options, correct?


Cthuntfish,
Please contact me about your order.... There is a good chance your order wasn't shipped yesterday. We did however print out all the shipping labels yesterday to save time today. We should have all of the back orders caught up today or tomorrow... I can hold your order until you get back and ship fresh to you so you have it on the 5th of November..... Let me know!!





slay said:


> I dunno Coop, my gut tells me that a mature buck is the same as a dominant buck as far as urine goes. Kinda like when you wernt old enough to pee yellow. After a certain age, your liver, kidneys, etc. processes differently and your diet and metabolism alter things.
> 
> So basically, I believe a dominate buck has nothing going for him that any other mature buck has going for him. Despite what headgear he may be sporting around town.
> 
> ...


Yep, I have seen 2 year old scrub racks clean the clocks of 4 year large rack buck.. Dominantcy is not so much the size of the antler, but rather the size of fight that is inside the buck..... Watch our live cams and notice the wide 2 year old that has all but claimed dominantcy over most all of the other bigger antlered buck... That little guy picks a fight with all the buck regardless of size... We are more concerned with testosterone levels than we are with antler size....





slay said:


> CThuntfish,
> I believe that Stoney stated that he is against the freezing because he noticed that it seemd to separate into layers. He did say to refrigerate it for up to 2-3 months.
> 
> Mine will be gone in a month no matter what. Our season in Pa is short, so I will not be saving any for the "secondary" rut


I am not against freezing but I have not done enough testing to form a conclusion. I did notice that when froze, the urine separates and the top freezes clear and the bottom freezes dark. Which this "could" indicate separation of some sort.......


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## lampasashunter (Mar 2, 2007)

Stonycreek said:


> For the record, that buck in the picture is 5 years old... He has a long life ahead of him just growing antler and breeding doe, plus giving us collections of semen each year...


Sounds like he's got it made in the good life...although I don't know that I would appreciate the "giving us collectiosn of semen each year"...that did not look enjoyable


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## Cthuntfish (Sep 9, 2005)

Anyone have a phone number for StoneyCreek whitetails they can share? I can't seem to find it on the website


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## Cthuntfish (Sep 9, 2005)

I found it !!!


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## blemas (Mar 28, 2007)

*Aerosol Scent Freshness*

I must say that this has been a very informative thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. I have a question about placing scents in aerosol cans.

Does the sealed environment help delay the breakdown of the urine? Does the act of placing the scent into the pressurized aerosol environment add something that could affect the product? 

Stoney,
Just based upon your professionalism and willingness to render assistance and knowlege on a public forum, you have earned my business. 

Thanks again,
Brian


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

blemas said:


> I must say that this has been a very informative thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. I have a question about placing scents in aerosol cans.
> 
> Does the sealed environment help delay the breakdown of the urine? Does the act of placing the scent into the pressurized aerosol environment add something that could affect the product?


Here is a link to Wikipedia explaining about aerosol spray and how it works.... One thing that stuck out was the fact that mixtures of volatile hydrocarbons, typically propane, n-butane and isobutane are used to pressurize the cans... 

I honestly do not know enough about pressurizing urine to give you an honest answer to your question. However, based on what I've just read concerning the propellants of aerosol, I would be reluctant to even try mixing a bottle of pure, fresh urine with propane, butane, nitrous oxide or carbon dioxide. Just my opinion....




blemas said:


> Stoney,
> Just based upon your professionalism and willingness to render assistance and knowlege on a public forum, you have earned my business.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Brian


Thank you and feel free to contact me with any questions that you may have...

Stony


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Stoney, I received my order yesterday afternoon and sure enough the cold packs were still pretty cool!!! I went out last night and made 2 mock scrapes, approximately 20 yards apart, in a highly traveled area...I also took my rattling antlers with me and made a few rubs...I rubbed the scent on the licking branches and on the rubs...Then I put my Leaf River camera over one of the scrapes to see what comes in!!!! I am debating whether or not to try and sneak in there this evening to freshen 'em up b/c the wind isn't the greatest....

I was hoping to find some scrapes in the woods but all of the ones I could find were along the field....My stand is only back in the woods about 60 yards from the edge of the field and this is where I made the scrapes....the area is a pretty good funnel....there is a quad trail located about 40 yards from the field and runs parrallel with the field...then about 40 yards from the quad path (80 yards from the field) is a ridge of boulders that also run parrallel with the field....If I am calculating correctly, the deer should be traveling along the 40 yard swath of woods between the boulders and the quad path.....these woods are full of white oaks and red oaks!!! It's just very hard to hunt b/c of the wind direction....

I will post pics if I get any!!!!


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## DonnieBaker (Nov 18, 2005)

:thumbs_up Just got my pee in today..THATS WHAT IT SHOULD SMELL LIKE!! Thank you. I did kinda rush the order a bit, but I figured you'd get swamped and I'd miss my trick-or-treating. Is there an optimum temp. to store it at? I'm gunnin for the 29th.


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

*Thanks for the call*

Stoney,
Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to contact me. I wish I had been more awake (dang these 12 hour night shifts). There is nothing funnier than seeing your wife on the phone deeply involved in a conversation on the collection process for deer pee. We really had a good chuckle about that later.:sign10:

I look forward to my orders arrival. I hope you get the time to do some serious hunting yourself.
Thanks Again!


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## Innova (Aug 1, 2005)

How often do you refresh your drag trails?

I will be out all day this weekend, and am wondering if/when I should refresh my drag trails?

Any opinions?


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

Innova said:


> How often do you refresh your drag trails?
> 
> I will be out all day this weekend, and am wondering if/when I should refresh my drag trails?
> 
> Any opinions?


Innova,
There are many methods to scent trails and how often to refresh... Here is a link to an article that premiered in the Kentuckiana Hunter Newsletter published by the Kentuckiana Chapter of Safari Club International. This article was published in the fall of 2006...

*The Sweet Smell of Success*
by
Mike Ohlmann

Mike really goes into detail as to the methods and how often he dressed up his mock scrapes and his scent trails.... I hope this helps shed some light on your question and helps you understand the tactics of scent trails and mock scrapes..

Happy reading and happy hunting,
Stony


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

*I just want to give a shout out to Stoneycreek..

I scored a 14 pt buck last Wednesday and Stoney's scents played a part in my success. I laid down a scent trail with the doe pee and placed the drag on a bush 5yds from my stand.

I had been using the scents for a week and had not had one deer spook or even get nervous, even when downwind.

I was hunting this specific deer, not knowing his rack was typical on one side and non-typical on the other. All I knew was my one encounter with this buck 3 weeks ago gave me a look at the dominate buck in our area.

That's the deer I wanted to see again.

I'm not going to go into complete detail in this post.

To those who have any doubts...I was doubtfull too until I used the StoneyCreek scents.

I arrowed this 14 pt buck at 7 yds, downwind of my stand. 

I watched him run 40yds and dropped over.

If I can figure out how to post pictures, I will give everyone a look at him.

Thanks again to StoneyCreek scents for selling a product that does what you claim....sittingbull/mac*


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## Paul Cataldo (Jul 31, 2004)

Hey sittingbull,
Not trying to sound rude to a fellow hunter at all, but all you've said is that the Stoney scents didn't spook your deer when they were downwind.
You didn't really insinuate that the scents actually brought the buck in or anything.
Is this what happened? I don't really understand what happened, other than the scent did not spook your deer. ???
As I said, I'm just wondering bro. I understand you said you were not going to go into details, but you kind of left out the most important (and really the only important) part of the story... ? Considering the cost of quality scents, I think this would be the most important information guys are looking for...


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

I was thinkin the same thing. Did it bring the beast in range?
I am happy for you success. I did not get to lay many drag lines with my scent due to a lot of wet weather. The few times I did, I ended up having them come from the other direction, so they winded me first.

Oh well, theres always next year. :tongue:


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

Paul Cataldo said:


> Hey sittingbull,
> Not trying to sound rude to a fellow hunter at all, but all you've said is that the Stoney scents didn't spook your deer when they were downwind.
> You didn't really insinuate that the scents actually brought the buck in or anything.
> Is this what happened? I don't really understand what happened, other than the scent did not spook your deer. ???
> As I said, I'm just wondering bro. I understand you said you were not going to go into details, but you kind of left out the most important (and really the only important) part of the story... ? Considering the cost of quality scents, I think this would be the most important information guys are looking for...





> I was thinkin the same thing. Did it bring the beast in range?
> I am happy for you success. I did not get to lay many drag lines with my scent due to a lot of wet weather. The few times I did, I ended up having them come from the other direction, so they winded me first.
> 
> Oh well, theres always next year.



*Paul and Slay...There will always be nay sayers and I'm no one to anyone here..not a frequent poster to this website or debater of arguments, so I don't blame you for questioning me about my success.

I have hunted for deer for over 30 yrs, though...if that counts for anything?

From mid Oct to the end of Oct, I was definitely scented by one nice buck and very well may have been scented by the dominate buck in the area. He had come within 20 yds of my stand, from down wind, responding to my bleat call, but refused to come out of the corn and slipped away. He sensed or smelled that something was just not right.

I realized if I was going to get a shot at this buck, I needed something to bring him closer. 

Breaking a rule I had established for myself some 5 yrs ago when I had concluded that the scents available were not consistent in quality or ingredients, from one bottle to the next...sometimes they worked...sometimes they didn't work. I stopped using all commercial scents and concentrated on my own methods of covering my scent.

But I needed something to bring that buck closer...I started by doing a Archery Talk search of scents.

That is how I came across this thread and began to digest the information. The StoneyCreek information interested me so I decided I would talk to the fella who posted the information. What John (I think that's his name) said made a lot of hunter sense to me...using a scent directly from the doe or buck and shipped under cooled conditions and kept fresh in your frig until ready to use.

I ordered the scents on Nov 30, they were shipped on the 31st and I received them on afternoon of Nov 1 and used them that evening.

I used the doe pee scent on every hunt..laying down scent trail on my way to my stand. I did doctor a mock scrape I had made near my stand with the doe in estrus scent and the buck scent a couple of times.

My scent trails were through a huge standing cornfield that bordered the woods where my stand was located. I had made a path down one of the wider cornrows and used that one path in and out each time I hunted this stand.

I used this same stand last season to take a large nine point buck at 30 yds of my stand and downwind of me.

The biggest difference between this year and last, the field was standing corn now and not stubble like last season. To get a shot, I had to get the deer closer to the edge of the woods and in the open which was 10-15 yds from my stand.

Where this stand is located, I had to be scent free as the wind swirled and the deer traveled in all directions as one major trail was 30 yds down wind of the prevailing winds for our part of the country. I had been successful with my own homemade methods of covering my scent and was convinced that I could do it again this season.

I had several deer interact with the scent trail I laid down through the cornfield on my way to my stand. I had deer track the scent through the corn to my stand...I had a decent 8 point buck intersect the scent trail 10 yds from my stand and back track it out into the corn. 

After laying my scent trails, I hung the drag on a small bush 5 yds from my stand to act as a cover scent.

IMO, the doe pee works great to lay down a scent trail to attract deer and to cover ones scent when entering the stand. It also worked great as a cover scent in the area of my stand. Not once did I have any of the deer that smelled the scent raise their tails, act alarmed or scared in anyway..not one snort.

It's my opinion, the deer acted as if it was just another deer in the area...but a deer they were not familiar with. There was enough interest in the doe pee to get deer to follow the scent. I had bucks, mature does, immature bucks and immature does interact with the scent, and the story was the same for all of them...relaxed, unalarmed when smelling the StoneyCreek scents.

I used the doe in estrus scent and the buck scent in a mock scrape I made near my stand and not one time did a deer spook or raise their tail. I only used the buck scent and doe in estrus scent a couple of times.

I did have a buck hit the mock scrape during the night after I doctored it in the evening and hunted the stand again the next morning. He had pawed the dirt and left his calling card, which was a nice sized hove print.

I did not get a visual view of a bucks response to the Buck and doe in estrus lure so my experience with each is limited. I do know that deer that came into contact or near the smell of each scent did not spook or become alerted at the smell and a buck did respond and freshen the scrape during the night. 

I only had one week to use the scents and IMO, they worked for me each time. The more interaction I witnessed the more confident and relaxed I became as a hunter. I became comfortable knowing the deer were not going to spook and would remain relaxed while very close to my stand, even when down wind of me. 

On the morning of Nov. 7th, I looked back to the west and there he was, standing a couple of rows into the corn, facing my tree but gazing into the woods..15 yds away...NO SHOT...

I believe he was responding to my bleat and buck grunt calls I had made just minutes before. 

Unlike 3 weeks ago, when I called this buck to within 20 yds of my stand on an evening hunt...this time,he was relaxed and within bow range. Where he was standing, the mock scrape was behind the buck and scent trail I laid down coming into my stand that morning was just a few yards in front of the buck. 

He moved toward the scent trail, crossing it, stopping to drop his head and smell, but he's quartering toward me...NO SHOT. He again moved, briefly giving me a broadside but not long enough to take the shot. Now he's standing behind some tree limbs and some brush at the edge of the cornfield and nearly down wind of the scent drag I had placed on a bush just a few yards away. 

The buck turned around and took a step back toward the scent trail and the drag hanging on the bush. A couple of more steps and he will be in an opening, so I slowly draw, holding for a few seconds, the buck started walking and entered the opening and everything went into automatic. 

The buck ran 40 yds stopped, wobbled and dropped over dead...my season was over.

The buck had 9 points on one side and 5 points on the other side with an 18" inside spread...non typical on one side and typical on the other.

Was it the Stoney Creek scents that made a difference or played a part in getting this buck close and relaxed?....I have little doubt in my mind.

Stoney Creek scents worked for me...you might want to give them a try if your in the market for deer scents...sittingbull



*


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

Great story, and I wasnt implying that the scents did not work.
As a matter of fact, I am not a naysayer. I bought and used Stony's scents this year also because of this thread.

I believe in scentlines and such. In fact I had a monster wide thick beamed 6pointer come in on a dominate buck and estrous doe dragline while using a Montana buck and doe decoy.
I had to pass on him at 25 yards (that hurts) because of the 4 point or better law in PA. He was a bruiser, one of those 200+ pounders with a good 20" or better spread.

Was it the scentline or decoys??
I believe the scentline brought him up the trail, and that the decoys held him near me in bow range for about 15 minutes, offering numerous shots.

I will be using Stony's scents again next year.
P.S.

How about a photo of your buck!
Once again, congratulations. :cocktail:


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## NARLEYHORNS (Jul 7, 2007)

*Fresh Scent Does Matter.....*

In the past couple years I have really researched these scents sold at Wal-Mart, BassPro, Cabella's ect... 
A lot of people standing in line with open wallets dont realize whats in that bottle could be up to 18 months old. It was collected in collectors, screen of trash, then micro screened to remove even more bacteria. Some of this stuff sets out in 55gal drums up to 12 months before it's even dealt with. You want quality scent, get it directly from these small scent farms. Get the good stuff, the fresh stuff. This foul smellin goop at these large retail bussiness smells of whitetail URINE ????, it's more like an after efect of a 12 month old piss into a Dr. Pepper bottle left in last years DEER STAND hangin on a limb. Improve you chances greatly with real pee, fresh pee. QUALITY URINE WORKS.


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

*Hope this works...this should be the picture of the buck I took on Nov. 7, 2007, using StoneyCreek scents...sittingbull*


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## slay (Jan 26, 2005)

Now thats a nice buck!


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

*This should be a close up of the non-typical side..total of 9 points*


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

*And this should be the typical side...*


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

*This is the buck I took last season (2006) from the same stand, at 30 yds, downwind. I could not get him any closer..*


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## Huntin'Honey24 (May 6, 2006)

three under said:


> *Rule #6* Do not use posts to correct anothers spelling or grammer - this is rude and unnecessary. If you do not understand what they are saying, ask them to clarify.



Thank you! People are so rude! This is not a class, and nobody is the teacher--this is an opinion based forum--not an english final!


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## letemgrow (Dec 18, 2004)

skyhunter said:


> Want to know the real truth about doe in heat / estrus urine?
> 
> Here it is: What attracts a buck during the breeding phase is what is actually contained in a doe's urine for only a few days.
> 
> ...


You beat me to the punch so basically doe in heat will work if you shoot a doe and save the urine to be used in the next day or two. If you know a local deer farmer then you could probably get some good stuff for multiple hunts during that time frame. :darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## XtremeOutdoors (Apr 26, 2008)

So exactly how long will the Deer Pee last from Stoney Creek Whitetails if placed in the fridge?


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

XtremeOutdoors said:


> So exactly how long will the Deer Pee last from Stoney Creek Whitetails if placed in the fridge?


I ordered the Total Draw about three weeks ago and having it shipped at the end of October. The tests Stoney Creek did on the urine said if kept cool it should last for 3 weeks and maybe a little longer. He explains it better a few pages back.


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## Stonycreek (Oct 30, 2006)

*A good Friend...*

Just wanted to post a picture of the buck my good friend shot on the opening morning of the 2009 Pa Archery Season.


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## Supernaut88 (Mar 1, 2009)

I shot my biggest buck who came in during the rut to my Tinks 69 scent bombs. He walked right past me, saw me draw, and didn't stop until he passed the scent bomb. He backed up to smell it just as I shot and it went through his neck. He didnt even care I was there.


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## BoCoMo (Sep 28, 2008)

Im glad this thread got bumped. there is some great information on here. 
Thanks stoney creek. nice buck too.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Willcifer13 said:


> Finally!!! Someone finally said it. I can't stand the grammar and punctuation police. Thank you!!!


Why get upset because someone mentions your spelling ?? Especially when you can find tons of free Spell Check programs with a simple online search!! 

We all make spelling mistakes but a Spell Check program and some simple Proof Reading will make it so much easier for others to understand what you are saying!!.. We shouldn't have to ask you to clarify ! If it was worth saying it is worth putting in the effort for others to understand what you are writing..


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## Big Dale (Sep 23, 2009)

i bought some code blue off of someone on this sites recommendation, this thread got bumped, so i bought some of stoney creeks stuff...i am goig to do a side by side compariso, and if this stuff works better, you will have a repeat customer...


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## southpa25 (Oct 2, 2014)

What about if you froze the urine after it was collected would it last as long as the food would in the fridge, and what about if you used a bottle that sucked all the air out of it? Would it be more effective if used that way?


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## IL John (Oct 23, 2009)

We use S&P deer farm estrus. We buy it frozen at bait and pro shops in illinois. It's expensive hillbilly perfume but it works!


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## DontworkforNS (Sep 9, 2018)

If wild doe come in heat in November how do these deer pee collectors send out doe n heat mid October? Do they come in earlier?


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## Charman03 (Jul 31, 2006)

DontworkforNS said:


> If wild doe come in heat in November how do these deer pee collectors send out doe n heat mid October? Do they come in earlier?


Yea deer farming can bring these doe in earlier.


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## optimal_max (Oct 26, 2010)

old thread.....Stony Creek still in business?


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## thomasj1107 (Jan 8, 2014)

optimal_max said:


> old thread.....Stony Creek still in business?


Wondering the same thing? Can’t find the site

If not, what are y’all using for the best fresh scents?


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## DontworkforNS (Sep 9, 2018)

I use franks out of ohio he said doe n heat ready around october 12ish another brand I hear is good is is Mrs doe pee out of Iowa or Illinois can't remember


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## thomasj1107 (Jan 8, 2014)

DontworkforNS said:


> I use franks out of ohio he said doe n heat ready around october 12ish another brand I hear is good is is Mrs doe pee out of Iowa or Illinois can't remember


Is franks fresh and mailed cold?


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