# how much does equipment improve score?



## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

okay, I've been shooting a bow half of my life now (26 years old started at 13). I have always shot my hunting bow at the time and never owned more than one bow (not including recurve) at a time.

Realistically if I decided to get myself a target bow with a single pin, longer ata, scope, long stabs, fat arrows, etc how many points could I realistically expect to pick up vs my hunting setup? Obviously in 3d the extra yardage I would be shooting would probably negate any advantage but in indoor everyone is on an even playing field except their equipment.

Just curious if it is worth the expense of a second bow, sight, stabs, arrows, etc

I've never shot indoors and I'm consistently a 290-300 shooter in asa 3d. my only 3 shoots this year in the hunter class has been 292, 293, 296 in that order. in ibo i'm usually over even by a small margin.

Thanks for any input good or bad you may have.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

What do you have for your hunting bow?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Perhaps get yourself an NFAA 5-spot and shoot it then report back?

Bow fit is definitely important. Maybe more for some people then others. Personally bows under 36" just don't work for me.

-Grant


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

That was a big reason I ask about what bow is being used now.... And draw length.
Fit will be the most important aspect.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

my bow is in my sig. 2014 obsession phoenix. 32" ata. 30" dl 70lbs. Shot 30.5" for years but realized it was barely too long according to standard "perfect form" so shortened up. can't say it really helped any but now i have "perfect form" in photos lol. shooting 5oz out front 10 oz in back with total stab length being 11 15/16" and 5 15/16" (from deepest part of grip to stay asa legal). sight is an axcel armourtech 5 pin. currently shooting a scott black hole and just ordered a carter 2 moons. shoot without a click, but the two moons was too cheap to pass up and wanted a second release. 

If I would get a target bow it would be something in the 36"+ ata range, 60 lbs, single pin, probably a 4x scope, 30" front bar 12" sidebar.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

How many points of contact are you able to get in your anchor?

-Grant


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

grantmac said:


> How many points of contact are you able to get in your anchor?
> 
> -Grant


Knuckles and kisser. Nose doesn't touch the string. I'm not strictly referring to ata. Matter of fact that is the least of my concern. I've shot lots of different ata bows with very little difference in accuracy. More concerned with long stabs single pin scope fat arrows


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Straight forward answer- Yes. 

They will get you started. And I mean started.

If you're anything like me, it will take you a while to get used to a FS rig. It took me a few months to actually shoot a better score with mine when I first got it set up. Talk about deflating your excitement about dropping 3 grand on equipment. 

But then the scores started to climb and with more practice and learning to get it set up right, the scores went way up.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Getting additional points of contact will increase accuracy, if it didn't why would nearly every pro out there be touching their nose?
Nothing stopping you from shooting a couple indoor rounds with your current set-up. Then adding a piece at a time to your existing bow and seeing where the points come from.

For ME I know that I dislike shooting a magnified scope without having a very stable set-up. So the stabs and scope go hand-in-hand.
I also know that a higher holding weight, or a limb-stop bow that I can load-up is an important part of getting those stabs working for me. I like quite a bit of back weight otherwise my pin will dip.

Fat arrows can catch you an X if things aren't perfect but they aren't going to be dramatic better if there are major issues with the execution. Shoot a few rounds with what you have and see if a larger arrow would help.

-Grant


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Getting additional points of contact will increase accuracy, if it didn't why would nearly every pro out there be touching their nose?
> Nothing stopping you from shooting a couple indoor rounds with your current set-up. Then adding a piece at a time to your existing bow and seeing where the points come from.
> 
> For ME I know that I dislike shooting a magnified scope without having a very stable set-up. So the stabs and scope go hand-in-hand.
> ...


one of the things that got me thinking about this was last weekend shooting at my local asa 3d shoot. i was shooting with the guy that always scores 1st or 2nd in my division (hunter) every shoot. he was shooting a hunting legal setup, but very fat arrows and a scope. i couldn't tell you how many times his fat arrow barely cut the line and how many times my skinny hunting arrow barely didn't. now i will say he was a better shot than me, he finished with a 310 and me a 296, but i know a fat arrow would have got me 6-12 more points. 

plus i've never shot a target bow with long stabs so i have no idea how more stable they are compared to my setup. reading this sub forum (which is comprised nearly 100% of target shooters) its hard to know if the things I am doing to improve my float etc is actually helping. for instance, i've seen several of you say your float never leaves the x. No matter what i do with my hunting setup, sometimes it leaves the x. is that because i'm not a good archer, or because i don't have the proper equipment for dotting x's 200 times in a row. i've never shot indoors in league, but just for fun i can shoot a 300 but no way i'd hit 60x.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Like Mahly, bow fit is imperative. What scores you gave says you're decent, but then shooting up is normal. Florida ProAm this year, 40 targets, 2 up for 10th place and 17 up for 1st. So 30 targets would equate to 312. 

Hunter with fixed sights and Open C (free style) have the same distance in ASA, 40 yards...

When it comes to cost for another rig it's you that determines whether it's worth it or not. Placing and winning can sure make it feel like it's worth it. Okay, you ain't gonna get rich...least wise not at the club level or even National level in the lower classes. But then the lower classes are learning classes.

Much of what you named can be acquired 2nd hand, knocking the cost in half easily. Wanna new rig, then you're looking at around $2000.00. Don't forget, good accessories can be carried over to the next bow. I have 3 Sure Loc sight frames 12 years old that still work like brand new. My 30" Cartel stabilizer is 12 years old and probably as good as my new 30" Bee Stinger.
And there is some outstanding stuff in classified or knowing someone. My 06 Hoyt ProElite was up there in price. 5 months old I bought it for $500.

Like cbrunson, fancy bells and whistles equipped Free Style bow take some getting use to and finding where the bells and whistles work the best for you.

A 32" ata bow isn't what I'd care to use for target shooting. Some say 35 to 36" will do. The shortest I've used was a then new 2005 Bowtech Old Glory with 37 1/4". After the Old Glory everything has been longer of ata, up to 41 1/2". My present 3D bows are 37 1/2" and 40 1/4" ata.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

All good info keep it coming. For indoor guys, if you shoot your hunting rig then your target rig what is the gap in score between bows? Surely you guys do this on occasion?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm not sure of a "hunting legal" class which allows a scope, is it a local thing?
As for float: how much weight have you tried to add to your existing stabs?

If you want to see what fat arrows can do then start there.

I'm with Sonny in saying that getting a 3-4 year old target bow is a far better idea then spending 3-4x the price on something new. They simply haven't gotten much better and some bows have been around in basically the same format for quite some time (Conquest 4 comes to mind). I got a 2010 Vantage Elite $500 recently which was ready to go with the exception of enough stab weights to really balance it. That bow will outshoot me everyday of the week.

-Grant


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Dan reed shoots both hunter and opens tabs are all that is different. The guy shoots 58x with the hunting rig and 51x with the open rig state champion both classes yes you heard right he scored higher with hunting rig. It is the Indian. Now key factors his fit is perfect form like a machine and one of the classiest archers I shoot with. Short axel to axel will make the game more difficult need multiple anchor points nose being one of them and not by tilting your head to the string it all just needs to fit.


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

To put it in terms of your question with out all the tech BS 
I shot in Vegas in 2008 with pure hunting rig got when it was over I re punched my targets with a fat shaft and gained 9 points on one target 10 points on another target and 8 points on my last target plus a few extra x's. So fatter shafts will help


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

jwilson48 said:


> All good info keep it coming. For indoor guys, if you shoot your hunting rig then your target rig what is the gap in score between bows? Surely you guys do this on occasion?


About 6-8 x's


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

All that you need to start with is a good sight and scope with some longer stabilizers. 

I think that a scope is a great training tool. It lets you see your float and thereby allows you to improve your hold.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

Long story short a longer ATA bow will help improve longer range accuracy. Long stabs and a lens and moveable sight will help as well but they are an acquired taste. Now as for scores they may not improve for 3d the way you think because of the distances you have to judge and dial into the sight. Be prepared to take a few steps back before gains are made. do not get enamored with speed and fat shafts for 3d. with your DL 300 ft per sec should be easy to get. the 11 and 12 rings get filled up quickly and a fat shaft can hurt you there ( bounce outs). Don't be afraid to use a 23 or standard series shaft.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

bigbuckdn said:


> To put it in terms of your question with out all the tech BS
> I shot in Vegas in 2008 with pure hunting rig got when it was over I re punched my targets with a fat shaft and gained 9 points on one target 10 points on another target and 8 points on my last target plus a few extra x's. So fatter shafts will help


Fat shafts are going to be less forgiving, so you can't automatically assume they're going to end up in the same hole on a miss.

As with everything else in this game, you're going to have to do a bunch of trial/error to figure out the best scoring rig for you. I know plenty of guys who have ditched their fatties in exchange for 23's.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

rohpenguins said:


> Long story short a longer ATA bow will help improve longer range accuracy. Long stabs and a lens and moveable sight will help as well but they are an acquired taste. Now as for scores they may not improve for 3d the way you think because of the distances you have to judge and dial into the sight. Be prepared to take a few steps back before gains are made. do not get enamored with speed and fat shafts for 3d. with your DL 300 ft per sec should be easy to get. the 11 and 12 rings get filled up quickly and a fat shaft can hurt you there ( bounce outs). Don't be afraid to use a 23 or standard series shaft.


Asa has a speed limit of 280 and yes they do allow magnification in hunter which I don't agree with and I don't use it but several guys do


Thanks for the answers guys it is something I'm strongly considering just for fun. Don't ever plan on beating Levi


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

One thing I didn't see mentioned is..........so what if your scores go up? As soon as you change equipment, you're not shooting against guys with hunting rigs.

Your competitors are shooting Open rigs, also. And, their scores went up, too.


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## Justin (Aug 11, 2003)

I think indoor it makes a big difference personally.. shot a 34" ata quick bow for years, shot high 290's with high 40's x count.. went to an elite XLR, older yes, but what I could afford.. everything else is the same, always shot magnified sight and long bars. Just shot my first 60X last week.. but instantly I was shooting 300 mid 50x games.. there is something to be said about a bow with longer ata and higher brace height. only thing I gave up was speed, but the paper cant tell the difference. just my experience.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

JV NC said:


> One thing I didn't see mentioned is..........so what if your scores go up? As soon as you change equipment, you're not shooting against guys with hunting rigs.
> 
> Your competitors are shooting Open rigs, also. And, their scores went up, too.


Clearly you didn't understand my last post. I know I will never allow myself to reach my potential because I don't have the time to devote to it. Just thinking about getting one for fun. But that would have been pointless if it offered no advantage to what I am doing now.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

The first time I ever shot a 5 spot game, I shot a 46x 299. I was shooting with my hunting bow and arrows. If I had been shooting 23/64-27/64" arrows, I would have shot a 300 and over 50x. To me, the biggest advantage to be had is in your arrow diameter to cut the lines. Beyond that, it's just as easy to miss with a scope or a pin sight if you simply don't make good shots. 

This last summer, I shot the same bow and arrows in my first actual target competition. It was the state games 900 round. I shot bow hunter class while the other 2 guys on my bale were in freestyle. They had $400 a dozen arrows and both had Hoyt target bows with $500 worth of stabilizers on them as well as scopes with lenses in them. I beat them both with my Bear Anarchy and Truglo sight using only a 7" Limbsaver Windjammer stabilizer. If you're a good shot, you'll shoot well no matter the equipment. For that reason I feel the only real advantage would be to have fatter arrows for when you're just a little off your mark.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

If your "enhancements" allow you to stay in the same class, I understand. As soon as they move you into another class (long stab?), they're moot.


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## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

"Better archery through aggressive spending"...in the middle of my year long experiment


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

JV NC said:


> If your "enhancements" allow you to stay in the same class, I understand. As soon as they move you into another class (long stab?), they're moot.


You're still not understanding me. I'm not talking about the competition. I'm talking about me. So all things being equal (such as indoors, which is why I keep using it for an example) how much difference does it make. A few guys already gave me the answer I was looking for such as the 6x-8x answer. That is hard numbers without the opinion or competition level coming into the equation. I feel like you keep trying to tell me to stay out of target archery cuz everyone will beat me, which is why I know you are missing my point.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Keep in mind that BowHunter Freestyle in the NFAA isn't precisely the same class as what you are shooting with the ASA. No lens and no restriction on back stab length I believe.

For now why not get some more weights for your stabs and some 27/64" arrows, shoot some indoor scores and see how you do? Look up where you score compared to others in your class either locally or nationally. Then look at where that fits into the spectrum of freestyle shooters.

Get a baseline of your performance within the confines of your current equipment class maximized to meet the limit of the rules.

-Grant


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

jwilson48 said:


> You're still not understanding me. I'm not talking about the competition. I'm talking about me. So all things being equal (such as indoors, which is why I keep using it for an example) how much difference does it make. A few guys already gave me the answer I was looking for such as the 6x-8x answer. That is hard numbers without the opinion or competition level coming into the equation. I feel like you keep trying to tell me to stay out of target archery cuz everyone will beat me, which is why I know you are missing my point.


I took the results from the NFAA Indoor Nationals:

AMBHFS Avg = 294.78 with 40.90 X

AMFS Avg = 297.34 with 46.73 X


Of course that doesn't mean you can automatically assume you're going to improve 2.5pts and 6x by switching to FS, but you get the idea.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Get a baseline of your performance within the confines of your current equipment class maximized to meet the limit of the rules.
> 
> -Grant


^^this is what I'm telling you. You're talking about getting better.........well, sure you'll shoot better scores with enhanced equipment. But, does that mean you've improved? 

If you thought I meant what you said, I'm positive you're not understanding me.


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