# need help diagnosing a problem.



## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Unless you are getting fletching contact or you have some bad shafts I'd say it is form. I'd start by numbering all my arrows and tracking which ones are hitting outside the group. If it is the numbered arrows hitting outside consistantly, check for fletching contact or rotate the nocks 180 degrees and then see how they group.

If there is no particular numbered arrow or arrows consistantly being off the mark, I would look at two areas of form. First, and probably the most common in not maintaining a strong bow arm. The second is draw length. Actually it is very likely a comb of the two. At the release of an arrow the bow arm should move in a forward direction to the target and the draw arm elbow should move back in a straight line away from the arrow. Improper draw length can result in either a push or a pull outside the line of the arrow causing the bow to be taken off course as the shot breaks. 
What kind of release do you shoot? Do you concentrate on applying an equal amount of force forward with the bow arm as you do while pulling with back tension with the release side? How is your hold on target? Steady, loopy, or jerky?


----------



## Beno79 (Feb 23, 2012)

I think my arrows are ok, but my draw length could be a bit shorter, iv got my bow arm stretched out, and my draw arm pulled right back. 
I had a shoot this morning and i was shooting back to normal, the arrows going in and around the bullseye, but they could start going high and to the right again at any time. I started concentrating on putting even force on my bow and draw like you said, it seems to be helping but still some arrows are just not going where the pin was aimed, im holding quite steady not jerky, if anything alittle loopy. 
Some shots i just plain made a mistake, but others i seemed to shoot pretty close to perfect but the arrow just didnt go where it was supposed to. 
Its kinda frustrating because i was doing better at one stage but now not as good. Im using one of those releases that strap around your wrist.
It could bow recoil, some shots sound smoother and quieter while others make a loud buzz. im probably trying in vain to shoot accurate with my cheap bow. ill be getting a better one soon.


----------



## jdduffy (Sep 19, 2006)

when it starts, stop shooting and start again tomorrow. if your back on target it might be you getting tired and losing form.


----------



## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Hard to tell without watching. Questions to consider:

How much draw weight are you pulling?
Are you comfortable drawing this weight?
Are you experiencing any sense of fatigue which could cause you to get a bit careless with your form?
Are the limbs fully tightened, or are they backed off a lot?
If you dropped the DW would you still experience the same problems?
Are all arrows absolutely identical, including the nocks (i.e. different size nocks)?
Do the nocks fit tight within the D-loop(nock pinch), or is there a bit of clearance to prevent nock pinch?
Have you numbered the individual arrows to determine if the same ones repeatedly give you the problem?
Have you powdered the fletching & rest to check for contact?
You stated your bow is an inexpensive model. Any chance the limbs, cams, etc. are at fault with inconsistent performance?


----------



## Beno79 (Feb 23, 2012)

> when it starts, stop shooting and start again tomorrow. if your back on target it might be you getting tired and losing form.


Im thinking fatigue could have somthing to do with it, but im checking my form and it feels pretty right to me. Im putting the pin on the bullseye, everything in my form is as it should be, i release but the arrow just goes way high and right, they still group well enough. it not just one arrow its all of them, its strange becaue just a few minuits ago theyd be on target the suddenly they start going bad i dont know what im doing different if anything.

Ancient Archer, the limbs arnt fully tightened their both backed off 2 full rotations. im comfortable with the draw weight, i think its at about 62#. 
When i got the cams timed the bow tuner pointed out that the cams can wobble from side to side, he said it souldnt be like that, thats way too much movement, im thinking maybe the dogey cams coupled with poor quality limbs is causeing the bow and string to jerk erratically during the release throwing my shots off. And there is fletching contact BTW, which cant really be helped because the rest is close to the riser when its in the right position. like i said some shots just sound quieter and smoother and they usually go pretty close to the 10 ring. 
Ill get my new bow in about a fortnight, hopfully it solves the problem. thanks for your advice.


----------



## carlielos (May 12, 2007)

Think FOLLOW THROUGH always, every time, all the time, its the 1st thing to fail in form due to fatigue!
Also consider draw length and holding position of the drawing elbow, if you have issues pulling through the shot then maybe its a tad long?


----------



## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

if your right handed and missing high right, you are most likely creeping. shoot a shot back against the wall. then another with the cams engaged right in front of the valley. it should hit high right


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

When I do that, it's usually because of inconsistent anchor or follow through.

However, I've also done it because I got a little weak in my bow arm.

Allen


----------



## Stubby'smom (Mar 20, 2010)

I am willing to bet it is a slight change in your form. I don't know for sure but I would guess that a wobbly cam would make your arrows splatter all over the place. You could be putting preassure in a slightly different spot on your bow hand or something of that nature that might be hard to detect at first.


----------



## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Beno79 said:


> Im thinking fatigue could have somthing to do with it, but im checking my form and it feels pretty right to me. Im putting the pin on the bullseye, everything in my form is as it should be, i release but the arrow just goes way high and right, they still group well enough. it not just one arrow its all of them, its strange becaue just a few minuits ago theyd be on target the suddenly they start going bad i dont know what im doing different if anything.
> 
> Ancient Archer, the limbs arnt fully tightened their both backed off 2 full rotations. im comfortable with the draw weight, i think its at about 62#.
> When i got the cams timed the bow tuner pointed out that *the cams can wobble from side to side, he said it souldnt be like that, thats way too much movement, im thinking maybe the dogey cams coupled with poor quality limbs is causeing the bow and string to jerk erratically during the release throwing my shots off. And there is fletching contact* BTW, which cant really be helped because the rest is close to the riser when its in the right position. like i said some shots just sound quieter and smoother and they usually go pretty close to the 10 ring.
> Ill get my new bow in about a fortnight, hopfully it solves the problem. thanks for your advice.


I think that leads you to the problem. Too many things wrong at the same time. Donate the bow & write it off on your taxes. LOL Try fully tightening the limbs, even if uncomfortable, just to see if you duplicate the errant shots. If the draw weight is too much to shoot several shots, shoot only three at a time, take a rest , and then shoot again to minimize fatigue.


----------



## Beno79 (Feb 23, 2012)

Thanks, anyway whatever i was doing that was causing it im not doing it now, i think got into the habit of punching the release which was causing it.
Which leads me to another question. Iv been told that the release should get you completely by supprise. But i get the best results when the arrow releases right at the moment i have the pin settled on the bullseye, if it got me completely by supprise the arrow could release any random moment when im not ready for it and go anywhere. 
For me theres a moment when i think subconciously now is the right moment for the arrow to release and without punching i make it happen. but i dont think it got me completely by supprise, Is that the wrong way to shoot? Because the last time it got me completely by supprise it went way off target, i remember another time it happened the arrow missed the target completely and ended up in the ground somwhere in the long grass.


----------



## Beno79 (Feb 23, 2012)

> whatever i was doing that was causing it im not doing it now, i think got into the habit of punching the release which was causing it


 Maybe i was wrong about that. They were shooting high and right, the next day i went to the archery club for a shoot, wasnt happenening, had a shoot on monday and tuesday, not for long though, concentrating alot on not punching and trying not to know when the arrows going to release, shot today for quite a while, was shooting pretty well until suddenly the arrows start grouping way low and to the right, i start checking everything in my form, carefull not to punch the release, nothing i do solves the problem.
I dont know whats changed. 


> if your right handed and missing high right, you are most likely creeping. shoot a shot back against the wall. then another with the cams engaged right in front of the valley. it should hit high right


After they started shooting low right today and i started checking my form. I realised i hadnt been drawing back to the wall, id been drawing back just past the point where the let off starts, which feels comfortable to me, but im pretty sure iv been doing it the same every time. I tried drawing back to the wall and experimenting with different draw lengths, it makes a bit of a difference, but their still pretty far low and to the right. if its not a fault with the bow thats causeing it then :dontknow:


----------



## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Are you "sure" you aren't drawing too much weight? You could try dropping the DW by 5lb to see how that feels & the results you get from a lower DW. If you find yourself getting off the wall & back into creeping, I suspect fatigue due to excessive DW. People tend to be embarrassed when drawing less than others, yet they shouldn't be. Archery isn't about power, it's an art form where it's accuracy that counts, not muscle.

I just changed the limbs on my bow from 60lb to 50lb for this very reason on each of my bows; 60lbs was getting to be too much. If one enjoys archery, in any format, whether tournament, 3D, or hunting, it's the results that are most satisfying and that is attributable to being able to shoot consistently over many arrows, not just a few at a time.


----------



## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

a nice video, of you shooting at a level target will help a lot.


----------



## Beno79 (Feb 23, 2012)

> Are you "sure" you aren't drawing too much weight? You could try dropping the DW by 5lb to see how that feels & the results you get from a lower DW. If you find yourself getting off the wall & back into creeping, I suspect fatigue due to excessive DW. People tend to be embarrassed when drawing less than others, yet they shouldn't be. Archery isn't about power, it's an art form where it's accuracy that counts, not muscle.


Sorry about the late reply. The wall on my sambar spur bow was really soft and springy, it wasn't a solid stop, and the draw length was too long, im still not sure why i was suddenly shooting high right and then later low right, i think maybe i hadn't done the bolt up tight enough when i adjusted the sight and it moved. and the draw weight was actually less than 60#, i thaught it was but it wasnt. Iv got a new bow now anyway, PSE Brute X. This thing is way better. 
Also i realised my form was wrong, Id been holding a still back pressure and releasing the arrow by squeezing the trigger with my finger. i didn't realise i was supposed to be pulling through the shot squeezing my shoulder blades together until the release went off. 
The thing is though, i was achieving some good accuracy the way i was doing it, but im assuming that the way i was doing it was flawed and in the long run would prevent me from reaching my full potential. so im learning to do it properly now, even though im not having as much success as i was, im starting to get some pretty accurate shots. just need to give it time.

I read that when the release goes off by supprise its supposed to be like two groups of people pulling on each end of a rope when the rope snaps both people go in a straight line either way, so concentrating on follow though isnt necessary. But im finding thats not allways the case, when i was releasing by squeezing the trigger i found if i concentrate on keeping the pin on the bullseye during the release i could shoot quite accurately, but im having trouble acheiving that now that the release gets me by supprise.


----------



## Beno79 (Feb 23, 2012)

Ok im hoping somwon can clear one more thing up for me. 
I read in an article about using back tension to fire a bow but the article was about using a Tru Ball, Carter or Stanislawski release, and said wrist stap releases arent allowed. 
Anyway i have a wrist strap trigger release so i wondered if the same method applies using that. iv heard the term squeeze the trigger before but iv also seen advice about wrist releases saying that using your finger to squeeze off the release is cheating. So what iv been doing is resting my finger lightly on the trigger trying not to let it go off prematurely, and the holding on the target while relaxing my shoulder and release arm whilst trying to use mainly the muscles in my back to apply consistent back pressure on the string until the release goes off by chance unexpectedly without deliberately applying pressure to the trigger with my finger. When it works it results in some pretty accurate shots, but sometimes i keep pulling back for ages until the back pressure gets so much that the hold goes really jerky then goes off and shoots off target. Other times im pulling back and i realise the release just isnt going go off unless i deliberately apply some pressure to the trigger. Is that normal, or am i doing it wrong still? Id like to clear this up because i hate putting practice into incorrect methods and reinforcing bad habits.


----------

