# Dress code 2011?



## alaskariverguy

I saw shorts and flips flops. And the guy next to me had the worst BO I have smelled in a long time. So bad it was actually distracting! If I had known there was no dress code I would have shown up in my pajamas too! I was there in slacks and collared shirt, oh well, next year I will still be there according to the dress code.


Steve


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## CHPro

Just an fyi, there is no dress code that I'm aware of for Vegas. The tournament is not an NFAA-sanctioned shoot, hence the NFAA pro dress code does not apply. I'll still be there in my slacks and collared shirt even though it is not a requirement and I encourage others shooting in the Championship Divisions to do the same - presents a nice image to those not shooting in the Championship Divisions, imo.

>>----->


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## Rolo

CHPro said:


> Just an fyi, there is no dress code that I'm aware of for Vegas. The tournament is not an NFAA-sanctioned shoot, hence the NFAA pro dress code does not apply. I'll still be there in my slacks and collared shirt even though it is not a requirement and I encourage others shooting in the Championship Divisions to do the same - presents a nice image to those not shooting in the Championship Divisions, imo.
> 
> >>----->


It's all in the shoe laces man...:teeth:


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## bawls

board shorts and vibram five fingers FTW


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## field14

Some might not like what I'm going to say...but so be it.

People pee and moan about archery not getting any billing or TV time....well...no wonder! Many of the competitors at these big events dress like a bunch of slobs and look the part of a true country bumpkin!
What ever happened to common decency and going out into public in a presentable fashion???

Fashion statements, my foot! That is a bunch of malarky, IMHO.

I wish that Vegas and ALL major events, indoors and out would require and ENFORCE a dress code...at least to the point of prohibiting torn or ill fitting jeans, tank tops, shirts with less than "clean" depictions or words on them, halter tops, and such items. And shoes? Learn to tie the things....!!

If we look like bums, we can hardly expect the TV or other media to notice us other than from our crass way of dressing...and they assume that we act like we dress, which in many cases, SOME do!

This sloppines in manner of dress isn't only for archery events, as we all know and can clearly see...Pajama bottoms and flip flops worn to SCHOOL or out do dinner? Filthy, torn, ill-fitting jeans or pants, tank top shirts that are torn and look like they came from Good Will seven times over? People complain about a dress code and it being enforced? Well, maybe it is high time the associations mandated a dress code and enforced it so that people come to the events looking presentable...instead of looking like a bunch of bums.
Go ahead, make my day...and bash me....but...remember, it isn't a TRUE "archer" that would dress like a bum..."shooters" tend to do this. There is a huge gap between an "ARCHER" and a "shooter", and a lot of it is with regard to manner of dress and conduct.

The way I feel about this issue might not be worth much to the "bumpkins"....but....If you don't want to come to an archery tournament dressed appropriately, then stay home...or go out into your backyard dressed like a bum. Archery (nor any other sport, for that matter) doesn't need the negative vibes gotten from a bunch of the competitors looking like rat traps.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## cone1

Well It was just a question but you have a good point. To a spectator walking in to see an event such as Indoor Nationals or Vegas one might think that swamp people was having a convention. the problem lies in no one enforces the code and your fellow competitor wont snitch on you. If your gonna make rules then enforce them I say.Just like the Arrow size Rule.If you can afford to book a room for the weekend at $100 and up and pay an entry fee surely you can afford Kakis.


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## field14

cone1 said:


> Well It was just a question but you have a good point. To a spectator walking in to see an event such as Indoor Nationals or Vegas one might think that swamp people was having a convention. the problem lies in no one enforces the code and your fellow competitor wont snitch on you. If your gonna make rules then enforce them I say.Just like the Arrow size Rule.If you can afford to book a room for the weekend at $100 and up and pay an entry fee surely you can afford Kakis.


Yeah, but the bumpkins will say, "You don't have a RIGHT to infringe on my "individuality" and "freedom of expression", haha. But...do they have a RIGHT to take away from the potential of improving the stature of the game?
The other sports DO have a dress code...and it IS enforced. The NBA players will NOT go out on that court with their jerseys not tucked into their shorts.....PERIOD. They do it.
ASA requires COLLARED shirts for their tour events....they DO it.

This "individuality" and "freedom of expression" crap...is just that...CRAP. They don't have the right to "offend" others by dressing like a bum, or smelling rank as rancid pig fat either....

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Rolo

field14 said:


> Some might not like what I'm going to say...but so be it.
> 
> People pee and moan about archery not getting any billing or TV time....well...no wonder! Many of the competitors at these big events dress like a bunch of slobs and look the part of a true country bumpkin!
> What ever happened to common decency and going out into public in a presentable fashion???
> 
> Fashion statements, my foot! That is a bunch of malarky, IMHO.
> 
> I wish that Vegas and ALL major events, indoors and out would require and ENFORCE a dress code...at least to the point of prohibiting torn or ill fitting jeans, tank tops, shirts with less than "clean" depictions or words on them, halter tops, and such items. And shoes? Learn to tie the things....!!
> 
> If we look like bums, we can hardly expect the TV or other media to notice us other than from our crass way of dressing...and they assume that we act like we dress, which in many cases, SOME do!
> 
> This sloppines in manner of dress isn't only for archery events, as we all know and can clearly see...Pajama bottoms and flip flops worn to SCHOOL or out do dinner? Filthy, torn, ill-fitting jeans or pants, tank top shirts that are torn and look like they came from Good Will seven times over? People complain about a dress code and it being enforced? Well, maybe it is high time the associations mandated a dress code and enforced it so that people come to the events looking presentable...instead of looking like a bunch of bums.
> Go ahead, make my day...and bash me....but...remember, it isn't a TRUE "archer" that would dress like a bum..."shooters" tend to do this. There is a huge gap between an "ARCHER" and a "shooter", and a lot of it is with regard to manner of dress and conduct.
> 
> The way I feel about this issue might not be worth much to the "bumpkins"....but....If you don't want to come to an archery tournament dressed appropriately, then stay home...or go out into your backyard dressed like a bum. Archery (nor any other sport, for that matter) doesn't need the negative vibes gotten from a bunch of the competitors looking like rat traps.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I draw the line at white pants...but other than that, I agree that their ought to be a "dress code" of some sort, and don't think what you have suggested is that far out of the realm of decency and do-ability.

As far as individuality and freedom of expression, even with a dress code, ther is room for this, and no one has the "right" to demand that a private organization recognize their "right" to dress as they chose at the organizations function. Personally, I encourage halter tops in public (so ling as the person wearing it has the "goods" to wear it) and I don't really give a rats behind what they wear on their own time, but there ain't nothing wrong with a requiring people to appear clean and tidy at an event.


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## "Supertec"

Well just like hunters reporting poachers which i will do in a heart beat ... then so be it i will start to rat people out at these major shoots ... your valley shoots are one thing but Kentucky, Vegas, Arizona ...the majors i say we start to police our own and let them know our thoughts. I dont like dressing like Giligan either but if the dress code mandates by all means i do it .... it goes back to morals, eithics and respect ... it goes back to the parents. 

Just my thoughts ... dont care if you like them or not .. but dress like a bum and smell like a goat and youll be damned if i dont something to you !!


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## field14

Rolo said:


> _I draw the line at white pants_...but other than that, I agree that their ought to be a "dress code" of some sort, and don't think what you have suggested is that far out of the realm of decency and do-ability.
> 
> As far as individuality and freedom of expression, even with a dress code, ther is room for this, and no one has the "right" to demand that a private organization recognize their "right" to dress as they chose at the organizations function. Personally, I encourage halter tops in public (so ling as the person wearing it has the "goods" to wear it) and I don't really give a rats behind what they wear on their own time, but there ain't nothing wrong with a requiring people to appear clean and tidy at an event.


I do believe that FITA has softened on the "white pants" and now go with Khaki pants or shorts (NOT "short-shorts" however, ha). Looking respectable goes a long ways, as stated below, "looking like a bum and smelling like a goat" doesn't do much for the proper representation of the sport to those on the outside that potentially could pump money, TV time, etc into the promotion and advancement of the game.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## blueglide1

There is a dress code in effect for Indoor Nationals and it will be enforced as per last years Pro meeting.At least for the Pro Division.It will be a welcome sight for sure.


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## target guy

Ok so if a pro does not follow the dress code at nationals what is the penalty? If that same pro shoots for a major archery company and you tell them they cannot shoot because of the dress code what ramifications will follow?
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for a dress code and one that is enforced.


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## archerycharlie

I have not worn blue jeans for many many years as they bothered my legs and i could not find any that fit good. So all i have worn for many many years at all the shoots that i have gone to is slacks or work pants. Blacks and blues and tans or kakas. When i got ready to shoot out indoor FITA state i was told to wear blue or tan so i did. I get there and there are folks wearing blue jeans. I have gone to this shoot several years now and still there are folks there with blue jeans on. I guess no one is looking at dress code there. But they sure check out your bow and arrows for being the right size and draw weight. Why is it so dang hard to just wear a pair of nice looking blue or tan or black slacks?


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## blueglide1

I guess you will have to check with the NFAA Pro Rep for that info.I think Diane Watson is the go to girl.


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## bowhunter_va_28

field14 said:


> ASA requires COLLARED shirts for their tour events....they DO it.
> 
> This "individuality" and "freedom of expression" crap...is just that...CRAP. They don't have the right to "offend" others by dressing like a bum, or smelling rank as rancid pig fat either....
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Everyone should agree with you? How would I know what would offend you? Maybe your shoes or the way you wear your hair is offensive to me. Should you have to change? Your statement above might offend me. The fact that you think I should change my ways to please you is ridiculous. Jeans or khakis have no impact on you other than you want it your way. I'm not posing a risk to you or your family, taking your possesions or infringing on you in any other way. You just don't like my choices and that is that. Maybe I don't like the make of car you drive or your choice bicycles. 

Having freedoms means everyone will have something to complain about. You use your best judgment and live your life. Sometimes you have to accept the fact not everyone will agree with you and your opinions. It has taken me some time to figure this out and I'm still working on putting theory into practice. 

I don't think offensive material should have to be tolerated in a family environment, but what is offensive to me may not be offensive to someone else? Religion? Sex? Hair Color? Who decides this? Set the rules, *enforce* them, and those that wish to participate will have to follow them or leave. Someone will be upset but rules are rules and as long as they are available ahead of time there should be no crying. However, this doesn't mean that my standards or your standards are the ones that should be chosen. The NFAA could survey it's members and allow them to choose. Only those interested enough will respond. Allow the majority to make the decision and don't overrule it with a Board or King. But most importantly, as stated previously, ENFORCE the rules.

I haven't seen an ASA tournament on TV lately, even with a dress code. 

by the way...Putting on a pair of khakis won't make a difference if the pockets are streched to the ripping point because they are too tight. Someone could follow a dress code to the letter and still look like crap.


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## kande6563

Ahhhh, the ever elusive dress code debate. Should a dress code be enforced? Yes. Why? First off, The Pro's are out there representing their sponsors. As with anybody one looks up to,they set the example. B.S. you say! Many archers buy the products that their favorites use, they try to immulate themselves as what they do. The old adage of " It works for them, it should work for me" comes into play. So, if your favorite is wearing blown out jeans, a torn T-shirt, butt cheeks showing or their breasts bouncing out of their shirt or maybe walking around with their pants half way to their knees and their Spongebob boxers showing, That's OK? Professionals need to live up to a standard set higher than we set for ourselves. They represent. Dress codes aren't going to make you shoot any worse or any better. Archery is already a dying sport, we don't need to kill it off any faster. Archery is also a family sport. The way that WE REPRESENT OURSELVES, IS THE WAY WE REPRESENT OUR SPORT. Besides, if anyone can afford to buy all of the Top Of the Line Equipment, surely one can afford decent clothes and hygiene products. Is any of this really a distraction? Only to one's own mind. We just need to represent OUR SPORT more PROPERLY. Ed.


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## dpattarcher

field 14 is the rule nazi. I do agree with you to an extent, not the extremist annoying extent you go to, but some where in between not caring and field 14's polished arien shooting line.


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## dpattarcher

kande6563 said:


> Ahhhh, the ever elusive dress code debate. Should a dress code be enforced? Yes. Why? First off, The Pro's are out there representing their sponsors. As with anybody one looks up to,they set the example. B.S. you say! Many archers buy the products that their favorites use, they try to immulate themselves as what they do. The old adage of " It works for them, it should work for me" comes into play. So, if your favorite is wearing blown out jeans, a torn T-shirt, butt cheeks showing or their breasts bouncing out of their shirt or maybe walking around with their pants half way to their knees and their Spongebob boxers showing, That's OK? Professionals need to live up to a standard set higher than we set for ourselves. They represent. Dress codes aren't going to make you shoot any worse or any better. Archery is already a dying sport, we don't need to kill it off any faster. Archery is also a family sport. The way that WE REPRESENT OURSELVES, IS THE WAY WE REPRESENT OUR SPORT. Besides, if anyone can afford to buy all of the Top Of the Line Equipment, surely one can afford decent clothes and hygiene products. Is any of this really a distraction? Only to one's own mind. We just need to represent OUR SPORT more PROPERLY. Ed.


well said


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## FS560

bowhunter_va_28 said:


> Everyone should agree with you? How would I know what would offend you? Maybe your shoes or the way you wear your hair is offensive to me. Should you have to change? Your statement above might offend me. The fact that you think I should change my ways to please you is ridiculous. Jeans or khakis have no impact on you other than you want it your way. I'm not posing a risk to you or your family, taking your possesions or infringing on you in any other way. You just don't like my choices and that is that. Maybe I don't like the make of car you drive or your choice bicycles.


Oh my, do you dislike his dog, also?:smile:


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## Guest

There is nothing wrong about looking nice at a shoot...I was just at the ASA in Monroe and the TV camera was a rolling .... Look like a slob in your own back yard not on line!


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## FS560

First off, I do not own or wear jeans, just dockers, and never wear a shirt without a collar, for anything, period.

However, jeans that are clean, without rips, tears, frays, or patches should be acceptable because they are more neat and presentable than slacks with the cuffs all bagged around the ankles and dragging the floor, because of the quiver dragging the pants down.

In my opinion, slacks bunched up and dragging the floor present the most seedy look imaginable, along with the walking billboard shirts. Gross!


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## field14

Oh, well, once a "bum" always a "bum", I guess. Some of in the game of archery will never wake up and smell the roses, they couldn't smell 'em anyways past their own BO.
You would think, however that a person would take more pride in themselves with regard to the way they present themselves in public. Seems to have come to pass that there is now a contest going on of how BAD and how SILLY, and how crass can we dress, and how silly can we make our clothes look. The dirtier and frumpled, the better. Doesn't matter to me much other than the embarrassment you types cause for everyone else in the group.

Oh, wait, I forgot. With today's entitlement generation...the rules are made for everyone ELSE to follow...they don't apply to those of the entitlement generation...just everyone else...ME first, I, I, I, and to heck with anyone or everyone else. I'll do it MY way and the world be da&&ned.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone

CHPro said:


> Just an fyi, there is no dress code that I'm aware of for Vegas. The tournament is not an NFAA-sanctioned shoot, hence the NFAA pro dress code does not apply. I'll still be there in my slacks and collared shirt even though it is not a requirement and I encourage others shooting in the Championship Divisions to do the same - presents a nice image to those not shooting in the Championship Divisions, imo.
> 
> >>----->


Pridgean shoots good in his open toe sandles. But they are Born all leather and he does wear socks while wearing them. I do agree pros should dress the part and makes for a better appearance.
DB


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## 3D_shooter84

field14 said:


> Some might not like what I'm going to say...but so be it.
> 
> People pee and moan about archery not getting any billing or TV time....well...no wonder! Many of the competitors at these big events dress like a bunch of slobs and look the part of a true country bumpkin!
> What ever happened to common decency and going out into public in a presentable fashion???
> 
> Fashion statements, my foot! That is a bunch of malarky, IMHO.
> 
> I wish that Vegas and ALL major events, indoors and out would require and ENFORCE a dress code...at least to the point of prohibiting torn or ill fitting jeans, tank tops, shirts with less than "clean" depictions or words on them, halter tops, and such items. And shoes? Learn to tie the things....!!
> 
> If we look like bums, we can hardly expect the TV or other media to notice us other than from our crass way of dressing...and they assume that we act like we dress, which in many cases, SOME do!
> 
> This sloppines in manner of dress isn't only for archery events, as we all know and can clearly see...Pajama bottoms and flip flops worn to SCHOOL or out do dinner? Filthy, torn, ill-fitting jeans or pants, tank top shirts that are torn and look like they came from Good Will seven times over? People complain about a dress code and it being enforced? Well, maybe it is high time the associations mandated a dress code and enforced it so that people come to the events looking presentable...instead of looking like a bunch of bums.
> Go ahead, make my day...and bash me....but...remember, it isn't a TRUE "archer" that would dress like a bum..."shooters" tend to do this. There is a huge gap between an "ARCHER" and a "shooter", and a lot of it is with regard to manner of dress and conduct.
> 
> The way I feel about this issue might not be worth much to the "bumpkins"....but....If you don't want to come to an archery tournament dressed appropriately, then stay home...or go out into your backyard dressed like a bum. Archery (nor any other sport, for that matter) doesn't need the negative vibes gotten from a bunch of the competitors looking like rat traps.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I agree 98% with you. I think we should all look like we have a little class on the range whether it is at a naional level or not. However I do believe that a NICE pair of WELL FITTING jeans should be accepted. As long as they are not full of holes and stains and don't hang off your rear end, a pair of jeans can look as nice as a pair of kahki pants. As far as jean short however, that should be a no. Kahki shorts of a good length(not too short and not looking like they could be a pair of pants that are 3 inches too short), should be part of the code. I'm with you, flame me if you like, this is just my opinion.


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## bowhunter_va_28

FS560 said:


> Oh my, do you dislike his dog, also?:smile:


is it one of those you can carry in a purse? 

My point is you have to create and enforce rules, otherwise it's just an opinion, not right or wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. There are a lot of folks lacking values, integrity and personal hygeine  , but until they break a law, or rule, there isn't much anyone can do but voice their disgust.

I agree with most of what Field has to say. I have a lot of respect for Field and his wisdom, even if he thinks the world would be a better place if everyone had his same beliefs. I just wanted to point out that just because he says it, it doesn't mean it's the law. Make a clear rule, enforce it and move on.


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## blueglide1

The rule is for Professional Archers,and is in reality for three shoots at that level.Your Indoor state shoot,Your NFAA Sectional shoots and NFAA Indoor Nationals.The only one that really will be scrutinized is Indoor Nationals,because we are all there at one time, and can be observed.It is not a big deal for Pros to look like Pros for one shoot a year.Most have sponsored collared shirts with various sponsors logos on them,and are worn all the time while on the line, or surrounding venues.Nice slacks or cargo pants that are allowed will last forever,as they are only worn for a few times a year by some.LOL Myself included.But I think too much is made about this subject.The Pros know when they have to wear certain things and it is on them alone to either conform or maybe not be allowed to compete.And I dont think anyone wants to be turned down or not allowed to shoot because they want to be rebels and not conform to the dress code.Nuff said.


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## Utah1

I am glad that i am not the only one that feels this way. When i was at Vegas i was quite disappointed in how lot of the shooters were dressed. They looked like stright up trailer trash. If we want respect in the sport we need to show some respect. How hard is it to take a shower and put on good fitting clean clothes?

Brim (Utah1)


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## Skeeterbait

I dress and act to reflect credit on the company's that trust me wearing thier logo's.


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## target1

Maybe if we just got rid of the Bowhunter class it would solve at least 90% of the problem...:jksign:


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## field14

target1 said:


> Maybe if we just got rid of the Bowhunter class it would solve at least 90% of the problem...:jksign:


Unfortunately, the Bowhunter class is a pretty good portion of the participants, too. Wouldn't solve the problem really, but the establishment and ENFORCEMENT of a "dress code" would; the key being enforcement, and prior notification that adherence to the "code" is expected and WILL be enforced.
You can't just up and do this without prior notification.
Sure we'd lose some shooters...for the SHORT TERM, but if people want to shoot, they'll comply with the code, plain and simple.
Just like "No shirts, no shoes = NO SERVICE" for a restaurant.... "No compliance, no space for you on the shooting line; change clothes or you aren't welcome here."
field14 (Tom D.)


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## LUCKYDUX

Wow..another touchy subject...this is interesting. 
Most would agree that archery is good for the youth and we could better them by teaching this great sport...but only if they dress the way YOU would like them to...only if they are willing to act the way YOU deem appropriate? Really? ...and to label a person in jeans a bum? WOW!! 
I understand the "old school" views of the "good ole days" when tv was in black and white and the words spoken daily from most people were yes mam and yes sir, but this a new era, a new age, created completely and solely by the former generations. I remember a good wholesome saying from back in the day...its not whats on the outside that counts. 
I don't have a MAJOR problem with a dress code but when throwing the word ENFORCEMENT around, without any reasoning that this era can respect is just asking for some opposition. 
Me, I never liked to tuck in my shirt for personal reasons...I'm a very respectful person by nature but by me not showing my arse, who's it hurting? Who am I disrespecting? Nobody...but if I must tuck in my shirt, then I am in a sense getting hurt because I feel uncomfortable. I could say something similar about ball caps and if I try to make sense of these rules the only reasoning I can come up with is that society is very stereotypical and people want THEIR "club" to be seen a certain way. Respect is not a quality thats gaining any ground around my parts, I gotta wonder why? Could it be that too many are playing judge and jury? 
Since society is a product of past generations, it would seem that many would recognize that laws and rules are getting us no where... in a hurry. I only got this one life to live as far as I know and I'm not wasting it by judging others. 
Just some food for thought...I will not argue the pettiness of an apparel argument and I truly hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears. Some wear slacks, some wear jeans...neither is a lessor person for it


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## field14

LUCKYDUX said:


> Wow..another touchy subject...this is interesting.
> Most would agree that archery is good for the youth and we could better them by teaching this great sport...but only if they dress the way YOU would like them to...only if they are willing to act the way YOU deem appropriate? Really? ...and to label a person in jeans a bum? WOW!!
> I understand the "old school" views of the "good ole days" when tv was in black and white and the words spoken daily from most people were yes mam and yes sir, but this a new era, a new age, created completely and solely by the former generations. I remember a good wholesome saying from back in the day...its not whats on the outside that counts.
> I don't have a MAJOR problem with a dress code but when throwing the word ENFORCEMENT around, without any reasoning that this era can respect is just asking for some opposition.
> Me, I never liked to tuck in my shirt for personal reasons...I'm a very respectful person by nature but by me not showing my arse, who's it hurting? Who am I disrespecting? Nobody...but if I must tuck in my shirt, then I am in a sense getting hurt because I feel uncomfortable. I could say something similar about ball caps and if I try to make sense of these rules the only reasoning I can come up with is that society is very stereotypical and people want THEIR "club" to be seen a certain way. Respect is not a quality thats gaining any ground around my parts, I gotta wonder why? Could it be that too many are playing judge and jury?
> Since society is a product of past generations, it would seem that many would recognize that laws and rules are getting us no where... in a hurry. I only got this one life to live as far as I know and I'm not wasting it by judging others.
> Just some food for thought...I will not argue the pettiness of an apparel argument and I truly hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears. Some wear slacks, some wear jeans...neither is a lessor person for it


No problem at all...if YOU have a problem with ENFORCEMENT, then, when they announce a dress code and that they will enforce it...just don't show up; you won't be missed....especially if you had intended upon showing up dressed any ole way you felt like dressing.
Showing up in jeans is one thing, and not a problem....unless said jeans are torn, unkempt, filthy, unfitting (as in drooping to show your butt crack), etc. At that point...they become something way less than appropriate to wear to a public function...and an archery tournament IS a public function. Same goes with the shirt and shoes.
Don't like a dress code, then shoot in your back yard where absolutely nobody cares.

I sorta look at it this way....would you show up for work dressed like a slob and smelling like a goat? If so, I'd imagine you aren't going to be employed at that place for long. COMPLIANCE sometimes just becomes something you have to do, like it or not, or whether or not you have a problem with it...you just do it.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## LUCKYDUX

It would be a peachy world if everyone walked the line you drew...gosh, I can see it now. It would like Libya...last month  
I share some of your feelings Tom, such as those that wear jeans around their thighs. I don't understand why a person would look like IMO, a fool...but me not understanding doesn't make me right and them wrong.


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## field14

LUCKYDUX said:


> It would be a peachy world if everyone walked the line you drew...gosh, I can see it now. It would like Libya...last month
> I share some of your feelings Tom, such as those that wear jeans around their thighs. I don't understand why a person would look like IMO, a fool...but me not understanding doesn't make me right and them wrong.


Why would anyone want to go out into public (to a major archery tournament) dressed like a bum and/or smelling like a goat...and making that "statement" about themselves. They not only are showing disregard and disrespect for their fellow archers and sending a negative message about the entire group, but they are disrespecting and embarrassing THEMSELVES as well. Why would anyone want to be remembered looking like that?
Individuality and "public statements" only go so far...and that type of "self-promotion" doesn't promote "you" (them) at all...it demotes them (you). Yet, those dressing in this manner can't see the forest for the trees.

Let's say someone dressed like this should get lucky enough to win a major event. If they are dressed sloppily and present an aura around themselves as one of that sort of disrespect, cockiness, and self-centered ego...how many "camera time" interviews are they going to get? What "impression" are they going to form, not only of themselves, but of the entire group of shooters at the tournament? If I was the one to interview them, it would be short and sweet and the camera angle would be taken away from them from the head down, and trying to avoid showing the rest of them as much as possible.

There is more to this 'dress code' than simple compliance. There is definitely more to it that "individuality" and "wardrobe statements" involved. These people that dress like bums are hurting the entire game, but of course, it is their "I" and "ME" individuality that is the almighty high; their "rebel with a cause", their "fashion statements"...but in the end, they go NOWHERE because the majority of people are turned OFF...not "on" toward these bumpkins' antics.

I know for a FACT, and witnessed a top shooter coming to a big tournament dressed pretty sloppily, unshaven, and pretty well unkempt. This person did win the event, and of course pictures were taken INTENTIONALLY showing this person as this person was presenting themselves at the shoot. When the sponsor saw those pictures.....ALL HE## broke loose...and this person PLUS the local Sponsor REP got chewed out but good. The rep got chewed out for allowing this person to continue shooting while dressed like a bum. They were both told that this type of "representation of the product" was unacceptable and, as far as I know, put on warning. The REP was really torqued off over it, because the rep really didn't have a lot of control....but also understood that the rep SHOULD HAVE said something to the shooter, and didn't.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## proXarchery

dress neat yes i agree. color of pants =dumb in this day and age,


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## field14

proXarchery said:


> dress neat yes i agree. color of pants =dumb in this day and age,


However, the khaki pants requirement is announced in advance, no surprise, so if you don't wanna wear khaki pants, then you don't attend. The attendance at those world events and NAA/FITA is INCREASING, and they aren't hurting for more shooters...those that do come, enjoy it, or they wouldn't be there.
By the way, the GNAS in Britain has very STRICT requirements for even the SHIRTS that are worn by shooters over there...and again, the shooters know the rules, they know they'll be enforced, and comply....or they aren't allowed to participate. "GNAS Approved" is a big deal for archery clothing.
Maybe a good dose of adherence to the rules would do some of those "renegades" some good once in awhile. 

You will notice that "video streaming" of EUROPEAN and ASIAN archery events is way, way, way ahead of what we have in the USA? Wonder why? It sure isn't "money"....They take PRIDE in presenting themselves in what we Americans might perceive as an elegant manner...but their shooters will NOT appear on something that broadcasts world-wide...looking like a bunch of bums! THEY are getting sponsorship money, and the FacetoFace and the NIMES tournaments are about to preclude Vegas as the world's largest indoor event. With the way some of the people dress at Vegas, I would be totally embarrassed to see that kind of thing on video streaming and then compare it to what people are presenting themselves like in Europe and Asia in the same kind of shooting event....
Think about THAT, instead of "the "I" and the "ME" comfort, and "I" or "ME" will show THEM what this is all about.

Our laws have gotten soft, are rules of society are in a shambles, people out doing whatever they feel like, whenever they want is making a mockery of "control", and common courtesy, etc....not the best thing in the world to happen, IMHO. No, we do NOT need a "nazi state", but we sure don't need the "I", "ME" and "entitlement generation" galavanting around doing everything THEIR way either. I also agree that we don't need us "old farts" shoving TOTAL compliance either...but there is a limit and a line needs to be drawn in the sand...there is common ground where decency, respect for self and others have to come to terms.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## titanium man

archerycharlie said:


> I have not worn blue jeans for many many years as they bothered my legs and i could not find any that fit good. So all i have worn for many many years at all the shoots that i have gone to is slacks or work pants. Blacks and blues and tans or kakas. When i got ready to shoot out indoor FITA state i was told to wear blue or tan so i did. I get there and there are folks wearing blue jeans. I have gone to this shoot several years now and still there are folks there with blue jeans on. I guess no one is looking at dress code there. But they sure check out your bow and arrows for being the right size and draw weight. Why is it so dang hard to just wear a pair of nice looking blue or tan or black slacks?


Thank you for the post Charlie. The trouble with enforcing the dress code, unless it is flagrantly abused, is the FITA State is one day. Enforcing it like our outdoor championship is impossible, which is simply, make sure you come back the next day in code, or you won't finish. We're caught trying to promote archery, and play by the rules also. Wearing a pair of jeans for our indoor can't compare with shooting arrows larger than 2315, or the poundage limitation, but for the most part, people do adhere to it. Not surprisingly, we do get a lot of grumblings and resistence from NFAA people who think a dress code is ridiculous. I'll be the first to wear denim when I can, but during our shoot, I like to stay within the rules. We relaxed it one year, and probably the same percentage of people wore denim. 

In regards to the FITA dress code, it has relaxed to the point of NO Denim or Camo, and no open toe shoes, plus a suitable top with obviously no outrageous writing. 

With our Outdoor Northern, it's grown to the point, and has gained recognition for National Records being set, the dress code is an important part of equipment inspection. I'm lucky I have top notch officials who also have tact in enforcing it. 

JC


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## VaDeerHunter

Its really all about self respect. If you want to dress in a particular way then expect to be treated a particular way. I think a general code of clean and neat should suffice, although the same required dress for a resturaunt should be sufficient. Lets face it is really up to the individual whether or not they wish to represent themselves and the sport in positive light to the public. I am not a pro, but this year I quit wearing jeans to indoor shoots and wear either manufactures shirt (in this case Hoyt) or at the least something my wife would approve of out in public. Again its a free country (at least for now) and it really behooves us to set an example and hope that others see it and follow. Its much easier to get people to buy in to something, than force them, since that is not going to happen if it cuts into the profit or attendance at a shoot. I would not want my wife to come to some of the shoots I have been to based on the general appearance, and sometimes the language I hear. If you want to draw people to the sport, first impressions are worth a million dollars.


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## archer_nm

1st off the Dress Code is for the Pro's only and most of you are not Pro's so why do you care?? 2nd the Dress code was what the majority of the PRO'S wanted and felt they needed. The unfortunate part is untill the MFG's get behind the whole issue then it will be very hard to make it work, after all the way the Pro's dress reflects on who they shoot for.


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## field14

archer_nm said:


> 1st off the Dress Code is for the Pro's only and most of you are not Pro's so why do you care?? 2nd the Dress code was what the majority of the PRO'S wanted and felt they needed. The unfortunate part is untill the MFG's get behind the whole issue then it will be very hard to make it work, after all the way the Pro's dress reflects on who they shoot for.


Very simple...because those that choose to dress like bums and smell like goats are creating a bad impression on ALL OF US at that particular tournament, that's why this ARCHER cares!

All those "fashion statements" being made to express one's "individuality" and open disrespect for appearances give the game of tournament archer a bad rap not to be soon fogotten by those that may well have been (note the use of the past perfect tense, cuz the chance has just been blown) interested in televising, interviewing, and maybe even sponsoring all or part of an event. 

That is why this ARCHER cares about "shooters" that don't give a rat about anything but themselves and doing it their way regardless of the consequences placed upon those around them.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## archer_nm

Tom, I for one agree with what you are saying, but until the NFAA Directors pass a dress code for all then we will have to shoot with the folks that don't care how they look or as you put it "smell like goats" So get an agenda item to your Director and have it put before the board this comming Feb 2012. It still is working in a relaxed fashion in the US Archery.


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## Diane Watson

> 2nd the Dress code was what the majority of the PRO'S wanted and felt they needed.


Sorry Bob, but the Pro's did not want the dress code. Some of the Directors said that we looked like slobs and that we should have a dress code.


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## archer_nm

My mistake Lady D, see what being a councilman does to your brain. Judd told me what happened in Louisville and you are still the best we have had the pleasure to work with, keep in touch


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## Schocker

Let me ask this question Were any of these "slobs" actually shooting well? It sounds like an awful lot of complaining about what shirt someone wears as to how well of an archer he or she is. If you honestly think you are better than someone just becuz you wear a collared shirt then my freind I think you are looking for excuses for your own game.


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## Schocker

I have read all the posts you have written on this subject. i really think your ego has gotten past the point of what I can handle. I think people with the mindsets such as yours are the ones who turn off big tourneys to the average joe. I for one would never look down on someone who is enjoying the same sport that I love. Just admit it guy Did you or did you not get spanked by one of these" slobs" during a tourney???????



field14 said:


> Very simple...because those that choose to dress like bums and smell like goats are creating a bad impression on ALL OF US at that particular tournament, that's why this ARCHER cares!
> 
> All those "fashion statements" being made to express one's "individuality" and open disrespect for appearances give the game of tournament archer a bad rap not to be soon fogotten by those that may well have been (note the use of the past perfect tense, cuz the chance has just been blown) interested in televising, interviewing, and maybe even sponsoring all or part of an event.
> 
> That is why this ARCHER cares about "shooters" that don't give a rat about anything but themselves and doing it their way regardless of the consequences placed upon those around them.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

Schocker said:


> I have read all the posts you have written on this subject. i really think your ego has gotten past the point of what I can handle. I think people with the mindsets such as yours are the ones who turn off big tourneys to the average joe. I for one would never look down on someone who is enjoying the same sport that I love. Just admit it guy Did you or did you not get spanked by one of these" slobs" during a tourney???????


Nope, didn't get "spanked" by what YOU refer to as a slob. In fact, when I was at the top of my game, the people I competed with /against were very, very neatly dressed and also acted well-mannered. But of course that was before the time of the ill-fitting, torn-up jeans, untied shoes, and unkempt demeanor being lavished around by "Hollywood stars", rappers, and other "role models". The real sloppiness has only come to pass in the past 10 years or so.

Simply expressing my opinion concerning the lack of "respect" for others, and helping to create the impression of the "outsiders" not familiar with archery that archery people are a bunch of country hicks, and dress the part.
The major archery events are a public event, and it "used to be" that when going to a public event, you dress NEAT and clean to present the best image you can for yourself and the event you are attending.
The "first impression" goes a long ways, and it doesn't just start or stop with job interviews. If I was a potential sponsor and came to a major event and saw some of the sloppy clothing, t-shirts with suggestive wording or imagery, etc...I would think twice before contributing monies or merchandise to the event.

My opinion is that what turns OFF people to these events is the FACT that there is NOT any "instant gratification" and it isn't "easy" to win. It requires hard work, dedication, and compliance to a work ethic and standard. Of course the other factor is the COST of not only the entry fees, but the motel, airfare, lodging, etc. RULES are another 'turn off'...but if we don't have rules, then we have chaos.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## jcs-bowhunter

Really? now we have fashion police to go along with the trad police...

As someone who 20 years ago lived in a trailer park as a young adult (while my wife and I were in college) and currently live in a very rural area this seems very high brow to me. Most of us that have experience dwelling in an aluminum hallway know what deodorant and a toothbrush are for.

As an engineering manager at a Fortune 500 company, I wear nice jeans and a decent shirt to work every day. The only non denim pants I own are part of my "marry 'em & bury 'em" suit.

Good luck recruiting enough 25 and under folks to sustain your hobby…


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## FV Chuck

Personally I say go forward with the rules we already have in place and then enforce them. 

It paints a very difficult picture for the people who will have to enforce the rule but I will say enforce it.

At the Pro Meeting it was brought up again - Dee Wilde shared a story that one year he had to appear before the committee to get a special exemption to be allowed to shoot because his luggage hadn't showed up. That really struck a nerve with me that if this man, this pillar of the sport had to get forgiveness and special permission ahead of time then by God I can wear slacks on the line.
The years and sacrifice that the grandfathers and grandmothers of our sport put in to make it possible what we do today deserve it.

Let us not forget that Archery is known the world over as the Sport of Kings....the least we can do is show the sport and them a little humble respect.

Aside from the TV side and the promotion angle - appearance yes it's an incredibly important aspect... but I'm not sure it's the make or break point. We have several hurdles to overcome before we worry about whether they like the way we look or not, but it cant hurt.


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## target guy

Here is my take on all of this. Does the NFAA pro division need a dress code, NOPE, should the pros want a dress code YOU BET. Here are my thoughts on this.
For years the PRO division has wanted to police themselves and sort of set their own rules. The NFAA has more or less gone along with that in many areas. The PROS want to expand the division with more money paid back, larger purses and more control over the destiny of the division. Going the way of MTV is not the answer. Yes society has changed in the last 20 years in the way people act and dress, but is it the way the division wants to go? 
I have read we are still the home of the free, yep we sure are and you are free to either join the division and go with the rules or you are free to go play backgammon. I guess my point is if we want to be taken seriously as a division WE have to make the changes for that to happen. 
Dress, act, and speak like a PRO and good things will happen. Because you win every event does not make you a pro, it only makes you a good shooter. A PRO is much more than that.


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## FV Chuck

target guy said:


> Here is my take on all of this. Does the NFAA pro division need a dress code, NOPE, should the pros want a dress code YOU BET. Here are my thoughts on this.
> For years the PRO division has wanted to police themselves and sort of set their own rules. The NFAA has more or less gone along with that in many areas. The PROS want to expand the division with more money paid back, larger purses and more control over the destiny of the division. Going the way of MTV is not the answer. Yes society has changed in the last 20 years in the way people act and dress, but is it the way the division wants to go?
> I have read we are still the home of the free, yep we sure are and you are free to either join the division and go with the rules or you are free to go play backgammon. I guess my point is if we want to be taken seriously as a division WE have to make the changes for that to happen.
> Dress, act, and speak like a PRO and good things will happen. Because you win every event does not make you a pro, it only makes you a good shooter. A PRO is much more than that.


Agreed.....


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## reaperjb7

Why are we still talking about this? It was not enforced! People did what they wanted and people *****ed both ways! Issue over! Let the board deal with it!


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## FV Chuck

I could be wrong (again willing to be educated here)

But I dont think it's a board thing. It's a Pro thing.... we should deal with it. It's in the Pro Division By-Laws so I think it should be enforced...but again it puts an unwelcome pressure on the people assigned to enforce it. Who really wants to be the guy to tell their peer that they cant shoot today because they are not dressed properly. No one, thats who.... But I've had conversations with several people who said quite frankly if the rule exist but wont be enforced they wont abide.... if it is enforced they will. 

It seems pretty straight forward to me... if you ask they will happily comply. Easy, done deal.

As I said... if it's a rule... it has to be enforced, thats the way I'll go


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## bigGP

target guy said:


> Here is my take on all of this. Does the NFAA pro division need a dress code, NOPE, should the pros want a dress code YOU BET. Here are my thoughts on this.
> For years the PRO division has wanted to police themselves and sort of set their own rules. The NFAA has more or less gone along with that in many areas. The PROS want to expand the division with more money paid back, larger purses and more control over the destiny of the division. Going the way of MTV is not the answer. Yes society has changed in the last 20 years in the way people act and dress, but is it the way the division wants to go?
> I have read we are still the home of the free, yep we sure are and you are free to either join the division and go with the rules or you are free to go play backgammon. I guess my point is if we want to be taken seriously as a division WE have to make the changes for that to happen.
> Dress, act, and speak like a PRO and good things will happen. Because you win every event does not make you a pro, it only makes you a good shooter. A PRO is much more than that.


GREAT post. Who's are you if you don't mind? 

As we are all in this area as registered NFAA pro's can we all please identify who we are?

Thanks.

Greg poole


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## bigGP

Oh and IMHO once we have some things in place moving forward i feel that EVERY shoot that is sanctioned with a PRO class should have the dress code enforced. But its a mute point until we get a few things inline first.


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## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> GREAT post. Who's are you if you don't mind?
> 
> As we are all in this area as registered NFAA pro's can we all please identify who we are?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Greg poole


Hey GP..... !
I know you know it's me but for the rest of the gang....

Chuck Cooley
NFAA Pro
NFAA Member 12yrs
VP Feather Vision
NFAA Pro Chair Election Candidate


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## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> Oh and IMHO once we have some things in place moving forward i feel that EVERY shoot that is sanctioned with a PRO class should have the dress code enforced. But its a mute point until we get a few things inline first.


YEp... part of a larger package deal...


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## DarrinM

target guy said:


> Here is my take on all of this. Does the NFAA pro division need a dress code, NOPE, should the pros want a dress code YOU BET. Here are my thoughts on this.
> For years the PRO division has wanted to police themselves and sort of set their own rules. The NFAA has more or less gone along with that in many areas. The PROS want to expand the division with more money paid back, larger purses and more control over the destiny of the division. Going the way of MTV is not the answer. Yes society has changed in the last 20 years in the way people act and dress, but is it the way the division wants to go?
> I have read we are still the home of the free, yep we sure are and you are free to either join the division and go with the rules or you are free to go play backgammon. I guess my point is if we want to be taken seriously as a division WE have to make the changes for that to happen.
> Dress, act, and speak like a PRO and good things will happen. Because you win every event does not make you a pro, it only makes you a good shooter. A PRO is much more than that.


Try to go to a big stakes backgammon game in jeans  I don't think Monaco allows denim!

Most.. No... All of the golf clubs I belong to do not allow jeans. PGA tour pros are not allowed to wear shorts and regular PGA teaching/shop pros have a appearance rule. 

Archery pros are really still stuck on how to look presentable???? If I ran the world the sponsors would set the dress code! Show up the way they want you to dress & act or don't get paid!

Amazing... You have my support Chuck!!!!! (not that I have a vote anymore  )

GP hope things are well and you have a great Redding!


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## blueglide1

Last year at the Pro meeting it was strongly suggested,"like dont get caught wearing them or else",and it wasnt going to kill us for one shoot a year to be dressed as such.It was also said that it would be enforced this year,how I cant remember but that some kind of enforcement would happen.Well when at least half of the mens open pros wore jeans, it kind of made a statement that here we are lets see ya do something about it.When it was brought up at the meeting, and after much arguemental discussion about it, Diane said if I enforce it,OK then half the line is DQed.Well as you can imagine after that came out then it was all of a sudden OK to wear what we want.When the biggest names in archery are wearing jeans then it must be OK.I shoot in the Senior Pro Div,and I can say that I only saw one person on the line in jeans.I guess we just care a little more about the image we project to others.So you all know who I am here it is.
DON WARD
Wisconsin Senior Pro


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> Last year at the Pro meeting it was strongly suggested,"like dont get caught wearing them or else",and it wasnt going to kill us for one shoot a year to be dressed as such.It was also said that it would be enforced this year,how I cant remember but that some kind of enforcement would happen.Well when at least half of the mens open pros wore jeans, it kind of made a statement that here we are lets see ya do something about it.When it was brought up at the meeting, and after much arguemental discussion about it, Diane said if I enforce it,OK then half the line is DQed.Well as you can imagine after that came out then it was all of a sudden OK to wear what we want.When the biggest names in archery are wearing jeans then it must be OK.I shoot in the Senior Pro Div,and I can say that I only saw one person on the line in jeans.I guess we just care a little more about the image we project to others.So you all know who I am here it is.
> DON WARD
> Wisconsin Senior Pro


Don,
Therein lies the problem with today's mind-set. It is rampant in the schools, too! The kids have been taught that if they don't like a rule or set of rules, just violate the heck out of them and force the authorities to back down, or arrest/suspend all of us. They got it figured (and correctly so) that "the authorities" will NOT "arrest/suspend ALL of us" so the "Defiant ones" will win and they (the authorities) will lose. It is also working for the 12 million Illegal immigrants, is it not?

However, it is interesting in that for NAA shoots, FITA shoots, GNAS shoots, World Cup shoots (at least for World Cup, I think so???), JEANS are not allowed and that CAMO clothes or open toed shoes are not allowed....???? I think their dress code IS enforced, and enforced before the first practice arrow flies?

Set the rules, make it known IN ADVANCE, and stick to them. You cannot, however try to enforce the rules after the fact, or without open communications to said effect. If the naysayers want to boycott? So what...that simply means that others move up the leader board and those deciding to boycott can go out and shoot by themselves somewhere else. Sounds harsh, but a line in the sand has to be drawn and a stand taken, and ENFORCED; plain and simple.

Even with jeans, there can be a standard set.....worn, torn, untidy, sloppy fitting, dirty, jeans will NOT be allowed. If the jeans are properly fit, aren't the torn up mess, baggy, low-hanging, soiled, worn look jeans, then perhaps that can be allowable....but...the crap that loads of people are wearing where they are the worn look, butt-cracks or underwear showing, intentionally ripped at the knees, thighs, buttocks, etc...TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE, IMHO. Same with the t-shirts and other styles of shirts showing midriff, bellies, back, cleavage, etc...NOT ACCEPTABLE. Torn, scruffy, messy, soiled, bent up caps? Also unacceptable. Those too, should be PRESENTABLE and CLEAN.

It isn't like the dress code would want them to wear a coat and tie, or a tux or something. Neat and tidy, PRESENTABLE, and a common sense approach to the design and implementation of a dress code would work just fine. Then, enforce it to the letter.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

DarrinM said:


> Try to go to a big stakes backgammon game in jeans  I don't think Monaco allows denim!
> 
> Most.. No... All of the golf clubs I belong to do not allow jeans. PGA tour pros are not allowed to wear shorts and regular PGA teaching/shop pros have a appearance rule.
> 
> Archery pros are really still stuck on how to look presentable???? If I ran the world the sponsors would set the dress code! Show up the way they want you to dress & act or don't get paid!
> 
> Amazing... You have my support Chuck!!!!! (not that I have a vote anymore  )
> 
> GP hope things are well and you have a great Redding!


Sure wish you did Darrin!....

THanks!


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## FV Chuck

Don - 

I feel for Diane in one regard because she (nor anyone else really) wants to tell their friends, their peers they are going to be DQ'd on a rule infraction..so in that sense I get it. It's a difficult position to be in.
On the other hand though it is the position that requires the tough decisions.

My solution will be to follow the current rules as they are laid out in the By-Laws.. in a nutshell it's this:
The Pro Committee (5 members) will review and vote on the rule infraction or situation and submit their findings and decision to the Pro Chair who will then deliver the decision to the member. The 5 members of the committee get a vote on the matter, the chair does not.

Chuck


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## bigGP

DarrinM said:


> Try to go to a big stakes backgammon game in jeans  I don't think Monaco allows denim!
> 
> Most.. No... All of the golf clubs I belong to do not allow jeans. PGA tour pros are not allowed to wear shorts and regular PGA teaching/shop pros have a appearance rule.
> 
> Archery pros are really still stuck on how to look presentable???? If I ran the world the sponsors would set the dress code! Show up the way they want you to dress & act or don't get paid!
> 
> Amazing... You have my support Chuck!!!!! (not that I have a vote anymore  )
> 
> GP hope things are well and you have a great Redding!



Whats up Umbrella boy? Thats still a classic in my book! LMAO The Mushroom is still doing great! She hangs right in there with me rain or shine……….Generally.LMAO so how long is this little VACA from Archery gonna last? Until you can shoot seniors or what? LMAO


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## stubborn

I take it if I showed up to vegas shooting in the bowhunter class wearing my NatGear 3D leafy suit expecting to shoot against other "hunters" using their hunting rigs you would feel offended? I honestly could care less what you are wearing while on the line, I'm concentrating on an "X" not your attire. BTW if average everyday "kin folk", "hillbillies" and "shootin' buddies" cant come to the party because they lack the proper "attire". Then these events should be "invitation only" with 5000 pages of rules on how you should dress or act so as not to "disrespect" anybody.


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## FV Chuck

Stubborn....
(kind of an ironic handle huh?)

Your absolutely welcome to the party, in fact we would love to have all the Pros and other shooters we can get. BUT....(important to remember here) we are talking about the Pro Divison, not Bowhunter...and we are talking about NFAA Indoor Nationals (an NFAA event)... not Vegas which is NOT an NFAA event.

FWIW - I dont get the inequality you place on the understanding of "rules" by the way.... you seem to handle the fact you cant use more than 12" stabs, certain number of pins, types of vanes, inserts etc for the division but if I ask you to put on something clean and not denim I'm offending you? Rules are rules...it seems so simple and so non invasive.

Well, I guess though we can pull your name off the invite list as you asked.... what was it again? Greg was asking everyone to put their names in the posts earlier so we would know who we are chatting with. It's not in your profile or anything. I'm guessing your a Pro since your posting here and on the topic but I might be wrong.

RS
Chuck


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## bigGP

stubborn said:


> I take it if I showed up to vegas shooting in the bowhunter class wearing my NatGear 3D leafy suit expecting to shoot against other "hunters" using their hunting rigs you would feel offended? I honestly could care less what you are wearing while on the line, I'm concentrating on an "X" not your attire. BTW if average everyday "kin folk", "hillbillies" and "shootin' buddies" cant come to the party because they lack the proper "attire". Then these events should be "invitation only" with 5000 pages of rules on how you should dress or act so as not to "disrespect" anybody.


The Kin folk,hillbillies and shootin buddies don't Compete or want to compete at the elite level for lots of reasons. You don't see the weekend league players being held to the same standard (Clothing or otherwise) as the NBA,NFL,MLB,Nascar elite players. You don't see the Kin folk hillbillies or shootin buddies doing it for a living or performing on TV either now do we? They can come play all day long but if they want to compete at the highest level,try to make a living at it or become a PRO then they will have to follow the next set of rules just like they do when they step up in a division ( BHFS to FS or whatever). ONLY in archery do the Kin folk hillbillies shooting buddies etc get to "PLAY" right next to the very best on earth on the same course at the same time. How well do you think Tiger would deal with having a 30 handicapper warming up with him or in the group ahead of him? LMAO or if JR was taking his warm up laps and some dirt track wanna be was sharing the track ( I know zero about racing that was just a example no disrespect intended to dirt track racers). Or if Payton had to share the field with the weekend warriors from the local park? what if the Giants had to warm up on the same field as the co-ed softball team? You get the point. Archers are VERY lucky to be able to hob nob with the best in the world on a regular basis! But its funny how that still don't mean anything. The ONLY sport where thats normal?


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## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> The Kin folk,hillbillies and shootin buddies don't Compete or want to compete at the elite level for lots of reasons. You don't see the weekend league players being held to the same standard (Clothing or otherwise) as the NBA,NFL,MLB,Nascar elite players. You don't see the Kin folk hillbillies or shootin buddies doing it for a living or performing on TV either now do we? They can come play all day long but if they want to compete at the highest level,try to make a living at it or become a PRO then they will have to follow the next set of rules just like they do when they step up in a division ( BHFS to FS or whatever). ONLY in archery do the Kin folk hillbillies shooting buddies etc get to "PLAY" right next to the very best on earth on the same course at the same time. How well do you think Tiger would deal with having a 30 handicapper warming up with him or in the group ahead of him? LMAO or if JR was taking his warm up laps and some dirt track wanna be was sharing the track ( I know zero about racing that was just a example no disrespect intended to dirt track racers). Or if Payton had to share the field with the weekend warriors from the local park? what if the Giants had to warm up on the same field as the co-ed softball team? You get the point. Archers are VERY lucky to be able to hob nob with the best in the world on a regular basis! But its funny how that still don't mean anything. The ONLY sport where thats normal?


----- brilliant


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## FV Chuck

I think it's important to remind readers ONCE again..... this is a PRO RULE only.......... if you shoot ANYTHING that dosent have the word or title or division with the word PROFESSIONAL in it, then this does not apply to you.

I completely understand that you want to have your say or share your opinion, but at the end of the day it dosent even affect you. You know that right??

So please dont be offended or feel like you have to stomp your feet and say hell no I wont do it. Because you dont have to. It's OK


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## bigGP

Isn't this a PRO archer forum? Why are some people here unwilling to give their names? That somewhat concerns me as i have seen numerous occasions where things have been "Submarined" by people without any vested interest ( Or understanding for that matter) in a topic throw a BF and its goes down in flames. If it doesn't effect you then why do you care besides to just be an obstructionist?
( Thats your word of the Day Chuck)


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## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> then why do you care besides to just be an obstructionist?
> ( Thats your word of the Day Chuck)


....noted Mr. Poole.... noted


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## DarrinM

bigGP said:


> Whats up Umbrella boy? Thats still a classic in my book! LMAO The Mushroom is still doing great! She hangs right in there with me rain or shine……….Generally.LMAO so how long is this little VACA from Archery gonna last? Until you can shoot seniors or what? LMAO


Haha... Good times!

Tell the shroom I said hi. If I had a shroom so dedicated I may be there. Alas my shroom likes the country clubs a bit more than the archery clubs 

The vaca is more than likely permanent unless the doctor says. I can shoot again. The T8 disc is just not cooperating. Don't worry though I still follow you crazy kids on AT and thru Mikey & Springer ....

Have fun and be sure to dress nicely!


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## The Swami

Rolo said:


> It's all in the shoe laces man...:teeth:


Are those bowstrings in code though? That's the real issue.


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## bigGP

DarrinM said:


> Haha... Good times!
> 
> Tell the shroom I said hi. If I had a shroom so dedicated I may be there. Alas my shroom likes the country clubs a bit more than the archery clubs
> 
> The vaca is more than likely permanent unless the doctor says. I can shoot again. The T8 disc is just not cooperating. Don't worry though I still follow you crazy kids on AT and thru Mikey & Springer ....
> 
> Have fun and be sure to dress nicely!


AHHHH I was unaware there was a medical. Hope that at least allows you to get out and swing the clubs a bit? yeah man she is a keeper. LMAO I am ALL for dressing nicely as long as nicely includes XXXL Tall Hawaiian shirts with matching pockets and real coconut buttons??? LMAO So when are you gonna pay us lolely wanna be you's a visit sometime?


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## Rolo

bigGP said:


> Isn't this a PRO archer forum? Why are some people here unwilling to give their names? That somewhat concerns me as i have seen numerous occasions where things have been "Submarined" by people without any vested interest ( Or understanding for that matter) in a topic throw a BF and its goes down in flames. If it doesn't effect you then why do you care besides to just be an obstructionist?
> ( Thats your word of the Day Chuck)


I ain't a pro...so I ain't required to give you my name...:tongue:...but I do think there should be a dress code for all divisions...pros and ams.

Not sure that a collared shirt and a clean, hole free pair of pants or shorts (even denim) is asking too much of anybody, not will they break the bank.:wink:


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## The Swami

I've given this a lot of thought...

We should ban the goatee in the sport of archery.   I've never seen so much misunderstanding of how to keep one and how to make it look good in any sport like I have with archery. What are all y'all's hiding?  

Away with the goatee!! Away I say!!


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## FV Chuck

Thanks for the support Jeff.... (Rolo)

'Preciate it !


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## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> I've given this a lot of thought...
> 
> We should ban the goatee in the sport of archery.   I've never seen so much misunderstanding of how to keep one and how to make it look good in any sport like I have with archery. What are all y'all's hiding?
> 
> Away with the goatee!! Away I say!!


awwwwww mann.....


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## bigGP

Rolo said:


> I ain't a pro...so I ain't required to give you my name...:tongue:...but I do think there should be a dress code for all divisions...pros and ams.
> 
> Not sure that a collared shirt and a clean, hole free pair of pants or shorts (even denim) is asking too much of anybody, not will they break the bank.:wink:


So how are you in the PRO forum??? LMAO


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## Rolo

bigGP said:


> So how are you in the PRO forum??? LMAO


I like to flybye every so often :shade: I know a few so that should count. :wink: And while this is a pro forum, it is not restricted, and to some degree, pros would be foolish to not listen to the opinions of ams on some things...especially when they have the good of the common goal in mind. :tongue: Likewise, joes should also listen to the opinions of the pros. It doesn't have to be, nor should it be a "proes v. joes" atmosphere or debate...joes need pros, and pros need joes...they both "need" archery...I think that requires the joes to listen to the pros, and the pros to listen to the joes...a common goal is easier to achieve when all the shooters are at the table on those things that are for the general good of archery...:shade: Your certainly not suggesting that we mere ams have nothing to offer, and may have an idea or 2 that would benefit the pros are you...:mg:


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## field14

Rolo said:


> I like to flybye every so often :shade: I know a few so that should count. :wink: And while this is a pro forum, it is not restricted, and to some degree, pros would be foolish to not listen to the opinions of ams on some things...especially when they have the good of the common goal in mind. :tongue: Likewise, joes should also listen to the opinions of the pros. It doesn't have to be, nor should it be a "proes v. joes" atmosphere or debate...joes need pros, and pros need joes...they both "need" archery...I think that requires the joes to listen to the pros, and the pros to listen to the joes...a common goal is easier to achieve when all the shooters are at the table on those things that are for the general good of archery...:shade: Your certainly not suggesting that we mere ams have nothing to offer, and may have an idea or 2 that would benefit the pros are you...:mg:


I agree. IF and it is a huge IF the 'Pros' implement a dress code, then there is the creation of a double standard, IMHO> IF there is a "dress code" then by golly, it should apply across the board, evenly, for Pro and for Joe alike. Potential sponsors don't just look at the PROS...they look at the entire package. Can't have one group dressing like country hicks and then the others (the elites, if you want to put it that way) dressing neatly and properly; again IMHO.
There comes a time when the org simply needs to come to terms with an item, establish set item, announce it, and then ENFORCE it...but before that first arrow flies at an event. If a person is at the warm up area and is in violation, then call them on it and tell them; don't wait. If a person is in violation during the practice, then call them on it and enforce the rule. Just once or twice and everyone will get the message that the org and group is serious about it and they'll comply. Threatened "boycotts" over dressing appropriately and neatly? Well, IMHO, do we really need sloppy dress and torn or dirty clothing and hygiene on the shooting line in a major event?
I don't think the PROS should be singled out or single themselves out with a call on dress code.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## bigGP

Rolo said:


> I like to flybye every so often :shade: I know a few so that should count. :wink: And while this is a pro forum, it is not restricted, and to some degree, pros would be foolish to not listen to the opinions of ams on some things...especially when they have the good of the common goal in mind. :tongue: Likewise, joes should also listen to the opinions of the pros. It doesn't have to be, nor should it be a "proes v. joes" atmosphere or debate...joes need pros, and pros need joes...they both "need" archery...I think that requires the joes to listen to the pros, and the pros to listen to the joes...a common goal is easier to achieve when all the shooters are at the table on those things that are for the general good of archery...:shade: Your certainly not suggesting that we mere ams have nothing to offer, and may have an idea or 2 that would benefit the pros are you...:mg:


LMAO no i was just asking. Lots of good info from both sides.


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> I agree. IF and it is a huge IF the 'Pros' implement a dress code, then there is the creation of a double standard, IMHO> IF there is a "dress code" then by golly, it should apply across the board, evenly, for Pro and for Joe alike. Potential sponsors don't just look at the PROS...they look at the entire package. Can't have one group dressing like country hicks and then the others (the elites, if you want to put it that way) dressing neatly and properly; again IMHO.
> There comes a time when the org simply needs to come to terms with an item, establish set item, announce it, and then ENFORCE it...but before that first arrow flies at an event. If a person is at the warm up area and is in violation, then call them on it and tell them; don't wait. If a person is in violation during the practice, then call them on it and enforce the rule. Just once or twice and everyone will get the message that the org and group is serious about it and they'll comply. Threatened "boycotts" over dressing appropriately and neatly? Well, IMHO, do we really need sloppy dress and torn or dirty clothing and hygiene on the shooting line in a major event?
> I don't think the PROS should be singled out or single themselves out with a call on dress code.
> field14 (Tom D.)


A dress code for amateurs?? why? If archery EVER gets to the level where outside sponsors and TV exposure comes to us do you really think they will focus on the Amateur class?? PRO's SHOULD be held to a different standard. The thinking that ALL SHOULD BE EQUAL is a major part of the problem. ALL archers are NOT equal just like every other sport on earth different level of achievement warrants a different level of equipment,rules,pay,exposure etc. Making the Ams dress a certain way is going to do what?????. Why do archers NOT look at other sports for the recipe? amazing.


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## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> I agree. IF and it is a huge IF the 'Pros' implement a dress code, then there is the creation of a double standard, IMHO> IF there is a "dress code" then by golly, it should apply across the board, evenly, for Pro and for Joe alike. Potential sponsors don't just look at the PROS...they look at the entire package. Can't have one group dressing like country hicks and then the others (the elites, if you want to put it that way) dressing neatly and properly; again IMHO.
> There comes a time when the org simply needs to come to terms with an item, establish set item, announce it, and then ENFORCE it...but before that first arrow flies at an event. If a person is at the warm up area and is in violation, then call them on it and tell them; don't wait. If a person is in violation during the practice, then call them on it and enforce the rule. Just once or twice and everyone will get the message that the org and group is serious about it and they'll comply. Threatened "boycotts" over dressing appropriately and neatly? Well, IMHO, do we really need sloppy dress and torn or dirty clothing and hygiene on the shooting line in a major event?
> I don't think the PROS should be singled out or single themselves out with a call on dress code.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom... it is a double standard and it should exist.

additionally it's not an IF... it's done already. It's in the rules. I'm on the record saying that in 2012 unless the rule is changed somehow it'll be enforced.

The TV People on whatever scale (internet or regular) are already looking at our sport...it's not a question of getting involved, it's a matter of how big.<see related posts an AT re: Redding and FITA-TV>
Making ourselves a presentable and marketable and desirable commodity is the absolute goal. I honestly dont have the time nor inclination to convince thousands of members that it's a good idea to look nice because there might be a camera coming.... however I am absolutely 100% committed to helping that dream to come true for those that have dedicated a majority of their lives to the sport and are trying to make a living at it. (ie PRO ARCHERS) I will do everything in my power to help in any way possible for that group. If additional people want to get on that train, fine...we have room and we would love to have you BUT you'll have to wear slacks and meet some higher standards to enjoy the rewards. 
It could probably be said best like this "Membership has it's privileges"...

Pro's are pro's for a multitude of reasons and they have to generally deal with different rules across the board. Dress code is only one more facet.
The amateur classes have made it loud and clear that they have no desire nor intention of living up to that higher standard and that's fine....really it's ok. 
The division should be clear and distinct for all to see that there is a different mentality, different skill set, and a different approach to the game. The result is a different set of opportunities being offered to those that meet the higher standard.

Remember the goal of the org is to foster and keep the sport of archery alive. That means all types, styles, classes and individuals. The higher up the chain you go the higer the restriction and expectation. Wanna be a weekend warrior a couple time a year?... sure fine come on along we have a spot for you and by god we are thrilled to have you. Wanna try and make a living ?... sure we have a spot for you too.

So yes, if you would like to look nice in the Am classes, fine, great... a little self respect sure is nice. In the Pro div tho...no it's not an option. Look the part, play the part. It's that simple.

YOu know though... I can in all my years recall even one time that anyone I shot with or next was truly offensive, as in smelly, dirty, poorly dressed etc...even the smokers on course I shot with when it was allowed were respectful and stood downwind...Isnt this just really blown out of proportion?


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> Tom... it is a double standard and it should exist.
> 
> additionally it's not an IF... it's done already. It's in the rules. I'm on the record saying that in 2012 unless the rule is changed somehow it'll be enforced.
> 
> The TV People on whatever scale (internet or regular) are already looking at our sport...it's not a question of getting involved, it's a matter of how big.<see related posts an AT re: Redding and FITA-TV>
> Making ourselves a presentable and marketable and desirable commodity is the absolute goal. I honestly dont have the time nor inclination to convince thousands of members that it's a good idea to look nice because there might be a camera coming.... however I am absolutely 100% committed to helping that dream to come true for those that have dedicated a majority of their lives to the sport and are trying to make a living at it. (ie PRO ARCHERS) I will do everything in my power to help in any way possible for that group. If additional people want to get on that train, fine...we have room and we would love to have you BUT you'll have to wear slacks and meet some higher standards to enjoy the rewards.
> It could probably be said best like this "Membership has it's privileges"...
> 
> Pro's are pro's for a multitude of reasons and they have to generally deal with different rules across the board. Dress code is only one more facet.
> The amateur classes have made it loud and clear that they have no desire nor intention of living up to that higher standard and that's fine....really it's ok.
> The division should be clear and distinct for all to see that there is a different mentality, different skill set, and a different approach to the game. The result is a different set of opportunities being offered to those that meet the higher standard.
> 
> Remember the goal of the org is to foster and keep the sport of archery alive. That means all types, styles, classes and individuals. The higher up the chain you go the higer the restriction and expectation. Wanna be a weekend warrior a couple time a year?... sure fine come on along we have a spot for you and by god we are thrilled to have you. Wanna try and make a living ?... sure we have a spot for you too.
> 
> _So yes, if you would like to look nice in the Am classes, fine, great... a little self respect sure is nice._ In the Pro div tho...no it's not an option. Look the part, play the part. It's that simple.
> 
> YOu know though... I can in all my years recall even one time that anyone I shot with or next was truly offensive, as in smelly, dirty, poorly dressed etc...even the smokers on course I shot with when it was allowed were respectful and stood downwind...Isnt this just really blown out of proportion?


Not blown out of proportion considering the "clothing selections" of torn, ill-fitting (butt cracks or underwear showing), baggy, dirty pants are being worn. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be on the shooting line with a "Pro" that is adhering to "their" dress code, while I'm dressed like a bum.
It is a losing battle however in that the mind-set is "rules are made to be broken", or "rules are for fools"; sorta like "D's get degrees".

I guess one that thinks of first impressions, first appearances, as being so important is, in this day and age, pretty contrary to common opinion; but that is OK, too, I guess.

I have difficulty understanding how a person can come to a major tournament dressed sloppily and not be embarrassed by being in the company of those that are neat and tidy.....just not my nature.

Hopefully, however, if the PRO organization grows, AND the division strictly enforces their dress code, perhaps it will rub off on the "wannabee Pros" and the upper levels of the AM divisions that are working towards getting into the Pro level competitions. One can only hope, I guess.


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## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Not blown out of proportion considering the "clothing selections" of torn, ill-fitting (butt cracks or underwear showing), baggy, dirty pants are being worn.


Butt crack showing Tom?... Butt Cracks?????? 
Would you like to tell us what event EXACTLY you saw this in?.... I expect names and places. Clearly you should have no problem outing them since they felt comfortable enough to wear it in public. As I read through your posts Tom you repeatedly say haven't traveled in quite some time, that you cant shoot because of injuries? So where?..When did you see this? Have you seen this and done nothing about it at the Pro-AM event you work so hard to promote? I for one challenge you to back up your claims Tom... This type of accusation is incendiary and serve no purpose other than to create false divisions and false lines of battle between the amateur ranks and the Pro ranks. 

I also challenge that your assumption of the current "mindset" is accurate. There have been posts to the contrary here in this thread along with other personal messages that support people following the set rules of competition.
Or is this supposed to be like the quote from the Senate (Senator Kyl) that other day that was followed by the clarification "Not intended to be a Factual Statement" http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/15/avlon.kyl.truth/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

RS-
Chuck


----------



## bigGP

FV Chuck said:


> Butt crack showing Tom?... Butt Cracks??????
> Would you like to tell us what event EXACTLY you saw this in?.... I expect names and places. Clearly you should have no problem outing them since they felt comfortable enough to wear it in public. As I read through your posts Tom you repeatedly say haven't traveled in quite some time, that you cant shoot because of injuries? So where?..When did you see this? Have you seen this and done nothing about it at the Pro-AM event you work so hard to promote? I for one challenge you to back up your claims Tom... This type of accusation is incendiary and serve no purpose other than to create false divisions and false lines of battle between the amateur ranks and the Pro ranks.
> 
> I also challenge that your assumption of the current "mindset" is accurate. There have been posts to the contrary here in this thread along with other personal messages that support people following the set rules of competition.
> Or is this supposed to be like the quote from the Senate (Senator Kyl) that other day that was followed by the clarification "Not intended to be a Factual Statement" http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/15/avlon.kyl.truth/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
> 
> RS-
> Chuck


Dang it Chuck you Beat me to it. 

Armchair quarterbacks are generally the harshest critics. I would welcome Tom to come on back out to help the cause but………………. 'Incendiary" is a very good choice of words Chuck and the very thing Tom does practice and AT has become. Even in the Pro meeting i see it.

Be part of the Problem or part of the SOLUTION. It is pretty easy to tell these days.


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> Butt crack showing Tom?... Butt Cracks??????
> Would you like to tell us what event EXACTLY you saw this in?.... I expect names and places. Clearly you should have no problem outing them since they felt comfortable enough to wear it in public. As I read through your posts Tom you repeatedly say haven't traveled in quite some time, that you cant shoot because of injuries? So where?..When did you see this? Have you seen this and done nothing about it at the Pro-AM event you work so hard to promote? I for one challenge you to back up your claims Tom... This type of accusation is incendiary and serve no purpose other than to create false divisions and false lines of battle between the amateur ranks and the Pro ranks.
> 
> I also challenge that your assumption of the current "mindset" is accurate. There have been posts to the contrary here in this thread along with other personal messages that support people following the set rules of competition.
> Or is this supposed to be like the quote from the Senate (Senator Kyl) that other day that was followed by the clarification "Not intended to be a Factual Statement" http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/15/avlon.kyl.truth/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
> 
> RS-
> Chuck


Vegas 3 years ago. I was NOT competing, but spent the time actually getting to see the tournament for a change. Since I don't know all 1,500 people at the tournament, I wouldn't have a clue of those people's names; they weren't wearing name tags...but when they were sitting down, there were "butt cracks" and some "whale tails" visible. Sure some could have been "spectators" too. In addition, there were torn jeans, worn jeans, and jeans being worn so loose and baggy that the tops of boxer shorts were visible when those persons were on the shooting line.

Actually, NO, I haven't seen "butt cracks" at the Presley's shoot...but there have been some "unkempt" shooters show up, but admittedly very darned few. BUT, there are only 193 shooters that make the event, it is in the winter time, so folks are bundled up, etc.

I will stick to my guns, however in that people really don't NEED to show up at an archery tournament (or any public event) dressed in an unkempt manner; especially the likes of Vegas or the NFAA National Indoor.

At my age, I probably should just say FIDGAS and to H### with it all, since people today just don't give a rat anyways. Let the cookie crumble, since people are really going to do what they are going to do anyways, and the minute anyone says boo about it, it is that person or group that gets called out and slammed.

By the way, there isn't a "false" division between the Joes and Pros...it has been going along big and strong for years and years. I do NOT agree with the "double standard" of holding the PROS to a higher level and letting the Joes do whatever. The PROS used to be JOES(Amateur ranks), and without the JOES, there aren't going to be PROS, period.
Without the JOES attending the bigger tournaments, there won't be bigger tournaments for the pros to attend, period.

How is it that other organizations have and strictly enforce a dress code for EVERYONE, but the NFAA won't touch it, and the NFAA PROS are the ones that are taking the bull by the horns? NAA/FITA gets complaints, sure, but...they have an ENFORCED dress code, and you ain't for coming onto their shooting lines dressed "out of code."

enough of this... you all are going to do whatever you want to do, and the FIDGAS is quite befitting at this point.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Vegas 3 years ago. I was NOT competing, but spent the time actually getting to see the tournament for a change. Since I don't know all 1,500 people at the tournament, I wouldn't have a clue of those people's names; they weren't wearing name tags...but when they were sitting down, there were "butt cracks" and some "whale tails" visible. Sure some could have been "spectators" too. In addition, there were torn jeans, worn jeans, and jeans being worn so loose and baggy that the tops of boxer shorts were visible when those persons were on the shooting line.
> 
> Actually, NO, I haven't seen "butt cracks" at the Presley's shoot...but there have been some "unkempt" shooters show up, but admittedly very darned few. BUT, there are only 193 shooters that make the event, it is in the winter time, so folks are bundled up, etc.
> 
> I will stick to my guns, however in that people really don't NEED to show up at an archery tournament (or any public event) dressed in an unkempt manner; especially the likes of Vegas or the NFAA National Indoor.
> 
> At my age, I probably should just say FIDGAS and to H### with it all, since people today just don't give a rat anyways. Let the cookie crumble, since people are really going to do what they are going to do anyways, and the minute anyone says boo about it, it is that person or group that gets called out and slammed.
> 
> By the way, there isn't a "false" division between the Joes and Pros...it has been going along big and strong for years and years. I do NOT agree with the "double standard" of holding the PROS to a higher level and letting the Joes do whatever. The PROS used to be JOES(Amateur ranks), and without the JOES, there aren't going to be PROS, period.
> Without the JOES attending the bigger tournaments, there won't be bigger tournaments for the pros to attend, period.
> 
> How is it that other organizations have and strictly enforce a dress code for EVERYONE, but the NFAA won't touch it, and the NFAA PROS are the ones that are taking the bull by the horns? NAA/FITA gets complaints, sure, but...they have an ENFORCED dress code, and you ain't for coming onto their shooting lines dressed "out of code."
> 
> enough of this... you all are going to do whatever you want to do, and the FIDGAS is quite befitting at this point.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


SO it begs the question Tom... was it Pro's?... was it Am's?, was it spectators???? we dont know ... you dont know.... so the statement was designed to just pi** people off and get them fired up based in nonfactual anecdotal evidence more than 3 years old. Brilliant, but hardly what we need right now. I'll thank you to not do it again. Your opinion and the opinion of others no matter WHAT their class is critically important to the success of the Org. but it must be done in a manner that it not destructive and not divisive.
Do they need to look trashy, no... but I think you've invented a false perception that there are guys walking in right from the cowbarn and that my friend is simply NOT TRUE.

Look, if the guys fishing on TV can wear slacks, we can too... I'm growing weary of defending it, growing weary of trying to explain why it's good. We have an industry and a sport that touches millions of users annually and we should be able to expect every type and style. At the elite level though it should be evident that they are the elite... otherwise why have elite and why have classes or groups or flights or anything?....it's all designed to separate from the word go. Take a deep breath and go with it.

Pick any game on the planet... any game at all...the separation exists and it MUST exist. Heck it goes all the way back to high school, JV and Varsity...it's a separation of the elite....
Keep in mind the NFAA is still trying to hold members.. making it tougher for them to come and play by implementing a dress code on the GenPop before they join is not in the best interest of the Org right now.... FITA is a completely different story apples and oranges....

The false division between the the Am's (which you so lovingly call Joe's...I think it's unfortunate you have given them a slang term)... anyway the false division I was mentioning was the wedge you seemed to be driving in. It's unnecessary to create a false animosity. Yes of course the am's have a different deal, I just cant comprehend why you think the guy who's just getting into the game with maybe his family a few weekends a year and such should be thought of as equivalent to a Professional Archer?.... it makes no sense Tom. Not even to the layman. Yes we all used be to Am's... some still are and never were Pro but we like to hear their opinion and welcome their participation...you clearly know this by reading this thread. Input is always welcome, but it gets weighted different when it comes from different sources. Those sources could be Pro's, Am's, Mfg's, Sponsors etc.... it's all important.

It's unfortunate that your going to go the route of FIIDGAS... because I think you do. Getting called out after almost 10K posts shouldn't push you over the edge but then again...I'm willing to be educated on things like this.

As for doing whatever we want to do... well, we will do what the Pro Division and the NFAA supports and endorses. It's not a dictatorship. Opinions, suggestions, changes when presented by a member of the Pro Division will be acted on. We want to control our own destiny and make the NFAA stronger as well as make people proud of who we are and what we do. It's good for everyone....the members you call "joes" and the Pros alike, we are all members. 

RS-
Chuck


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> SO it begs the question Tom... was it Pro's?... was it Am's?, was it spectators???? we dont know ... you dont know.... so the statement was designed to just pi** people off and get them fired up based in nonfactual anecdotal evidence more than 3 years old. Brilliant, but hardly what we need right now. I'll thank you to not do it again. Your opinion and the opinion of others no matter WHAT their class is critically important to the success of the Org. but it must be done in a manner that it not destructive and not divisive.
> Do they need to look trashy, no... but I think you've invented a false perception that there are guys walking in right from the cowbarn and that my friend is simply NOT TRUE.
> 
> Look, if the guys fishing on TV can wear slacks, we can too... I'm growing weary of defending it, growing weary of trying to explain why it's good. We have an industry and a sport that touches millions of users annually and we should be able to expect every type and style. At the elite level though it should be evident that they are the elite... otherwise why have elite and why have classes or groups or flights or anything?....it's all designed to separate from the word go. Take a deep breath and go with it.
> 
> Pick any game on the planet... any game at all...the separation exists and it MUST exist. Heck it goes all the way back to high school, JV and Varsity...it's a separation of the elite....
> Keep in mind the NFAA is still trying to hold members.. making it tougher for them to come and play by implementing a dress code on the GenPop before they join is not in the best interest of the Org right now.... FITA is a completely different story apples and oranges....
> 
> The false division between the the Am's (which you so lovingly call Joe's...I think it's unfortunate you have given them a slang term)... anyway the false division I was mentioning was the wedge you seemed to be driving in. It's unnecessary to create a false animosity. Yes of course the am's have a different deal, I just cant comprehend why you think the guy who's just getting into the game with maybe his family a few weekends a year and such should be thought of as equivalent to a Professional Archer?.... it makes no sense Tom. Not even to the layman. Yes we all used be to Am's... some still are and never were Pro but we like to hear their opinion and welcome their participation...you clearly know this by reading this thread. Input is always welcome, but it gets weighted different when it comes from different sources. Those sources could be Pro's, Am's, Mfg's, Sponsors etc.... it's all important.
> 
> It's unfortunate that your going to go the route of FIIDGAS... because I think you do. Getting called out after almost 10K posts shouldn't push you over the edge but then again...I'm willing to be educated on things like this.
> 
> As for doing whatever we want to do... well, we will do what the Pro Division and the NFAA supports and endorses. It's not a dictatorship. Opinions, suggestions, changes when presented by a member of the Pro Division will be acted on. We want to control our own destiny and make the NFAA stronger as well as make people proud of who we are and what we do. It's good for everyone....the members you call "joes" and the Pros alike, we are all members.
> 
> RS-
> Chuck


Chuck,
First off lay off giving the blame on me for the term "Joe" being given to the amateur archers...I am NOT the culprit or originator of said term. It is YOU that is the one calling it a "slang" term. The term "Joe" has been around here on AT for a number of years. It is not a derogatory term. Again, I not the one responsible for the creation of the term, but I, like so many here on AT will continue to use it.

Take a look at some of the pictures floating around of shooters on the line at THIS years, or last years major events. Sure MOST of them are from the waist up...but some of those that are full profile do indeed show pants that are ill fitting, and there are those that show pants that appear tattered and with holes in them. One example is Page 8 of the current NFAA Archery Magazine; center picture, right side. Hole in left front pocket, hole just below left knee of trousers. Another example US & International archer magazine, ad for 2010 HSO Champions. Top left picture; 2 persons ok, person on right, torn jeans. Don't see that with those photos of archers on page 44. They are wearing nice shorts, really quite nice, in fact. And no, I'm NOT going to dig through other magazines and cite other pictures, etc. For one thing, magazines are NOT going to publish pictures of competitors that give the appearances of being sloppily dressed (at least not those considered way out of line), so you are NOT going to see those pictures in any publications anyways. The examples I give are what may well be very "marginal", but maybe acceptable. I'm sure those people in the pics cited would NOT have been wearing those same trousers if it was a FITA/NAA event or an event where the dress code is being enforced. Wouldn't have happened.

How can you say that FITA/NAA is NOT the same thing as NFAA when it relates to dress code? Are not FITA and NAA also holding ARCHERY events that do have "Joes" and "PROS" competing? Of course there is one big difference, I guess. FITA/NAA are WORLD-WIDE events, with a following that is apparently gaining in popularity. However, they are still archery with the same exact intent for drawing and holding shooters, and that is readily apparent for FITA/NAA just as it is for the NFAA. 
I will say that the difference is, once again, that FITA/NAA saw the need for and to enforce a standard dress code for ALL competitors and not just the elites They didn't opt to stand around letting the "joes" do whatever they wish. It is NOT apples and oranges; FITA/NAA chose to indeed establish a dress code AND ENFORCE IT BEFORE PEOPLE JOIN. They know it going in, and yes, the FITA/NAA has caught flak over it, and still does. But, the established dress code is adhered to for EVERYONE or those not complying aren't permitted on the shooting line, period. 
What is so tough about establishing a standard for everyone attending at least the MAJOR events (Vegas and NFAA National Indoor, 1st Bank Shoot, NFAA National Outdoor), drawing the line in the sand, and enforcing it for everyone across the board. Answer: because nobody wants to do it and be called the bad guy.

If and when a dress code rule is going to be ENFORCED, it is going to torque people off and some will "boycott" tournaments as a result. Get used to the idea, just as those that don't like the dress code "rules" will get used to the idea; or simply not show. Anytime something new or different is put into efffect people get torqued off; but they get used to it. Comes with the territory, but somebody at some point in time is going to have to be the "bad guy."

I'd thank you to not go around pinning blame on someone for "invention" of a term, when you are NOT in the know of where said term really originated. I'll thank you to not do that again.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> Chuck,
> First off lay off giving the blame on me for the term "Joe" being given to the amateur archers...I am NOT the culprit or originator of said term. It is YOU that is the one calling it a "slang" term. The term "Joe" has been around here on AT for a number of years. It is not a derogatory term. Again, I not the one responsible for the creation of the term, but I, like so many here on AT will continue to use it.
> 
> Take a look at some of the pictures floating around of shooters on the line at THIS years, or last years major events. Sure MOST of them are from the waist up...but some of those that are full profile do indeed show pants that are ill fitting, and there are those that show pants that appear tattered and with holes in them. One example is Page 8 of the current NFAA Archery Magazine; center picture, right side. Hole in left front pocket, hole just below left knee of trousers. Another example US & International archer magazine, ad for 2010 HSO Champions. Top left picture; 2 persons ok, person on right, torn jeans. Don't see that with those photos of archers on page 44. They are wearing nice shorts, really quite nice, in fact. And no, I'm NOT going to dig through other magazines and cite other pictures, etc. For one thing, magazines are NOT going to publish pictures of competitors that give the appearances of being sloppily dressed (at least not those considered way out of line), so you are NOT going to see those pictures in any publications anyways. The examples I give are what may well be very "marginal", but maybe acceptable. I'm sure those people in the pics cited would NOT have been wearing those same trousers if it was a FITA/NAA event or an event where the dress code is being enforced. Wouldn't have happened.
> 
> How can you say that FITA/NAA is NOT the same thing as NFAA when it relates to dress code? Are not FITA and NAA also holding ARCHERY events that do have "Joes" and "PROS" competing? Of course there is one big difference, I guess. FITA/NAA are WORLD-WIDE events, with a following that is apparently gaining in popularity. However, they are still archery with the same exact intent for drawing and holding shooters, and that is readily apparent for FITA/NAA just as it is for the NFAA.
> I will say that the difference is, once again, that FITA/NAA saw the need for and to enforce a standard dress code for ALL competitors and not just the elites They didn't opt to stand around letting the "joes" do whatever they wish. It is NOT apples and oranges; FITA/NAA chose to indeed establish a dress code AND ENFORCE IT BEFORE PEOPLE JOIN. They know it going in, and yes, the FITA/NAA has caught flak over it, and still does. But, the established dress code is adhered to for EVERYONE or those not complying aren't permitted on the shooting line, period.
> What is so tough about establishing a standard for everyone attending at least the MAJOR events (Vegas and NFAA National Indoor, 1st Bank Shoot, NFAA National Outdoor), drawing the line in the sand, and enforcing it for everyone across the board. Answer: because nobody wants to do it and be called the bad guy.
> 
> If and when a dress code rule is going to be ENFORCED, it is going to torque people off and some will "boycott" tournaments as a result. Get used to the idea, just as those that don't like the dress code "rules" will get used to the idea; or simply not show. Anytime something new or different is put into efffect people get torqued off; but they get used to it. Comes with the territory, but somebody at some point in time is going to have to be the "bad guy."
> 
> I'd thank you to not go around pinning blame on someone for "invention" of a term, when you are NOT in the know of where said term really originated. I'll thank you to not do that again.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)




The NAA/FITA has NO PRO class. The dress code is an Organization wide code not just a class. Yes the difference is that FITA is a European thing and they take it way more serious and respectfully then Americans do hence the standard. Keep in mind they also have numerous other self defeating rules as well.

Chuck's point is that you have, and generally have a negative tone. For someone who hasn't shot in 3 years and doesn't participate in the Organization, period! is confusing to me and makes it abundantly clear which side of Problem VS Solution you are on. For those that voted for Obama voice your opinion,for those that DONT vote………….. you have no right to complain. Did you make the connection Tom? All input is great from those that ARE still involved. No matter what happens either way it wont effect you Tom, so try to not poison it for the rest of us please.


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## field14

bigGP said:


> The NAA/FITA has NO PRO class. The dress code is an Organization wide code not just a class. Yes the difference is that FITA is a European thing and they take it way more serious and respectfully then Americans do hence the standard. Keep in mind they also have numerous other self defeating rules as well.
> 
> Chuck's point is that you have, and generally have a negative tone. For someone who hasn't shot in 3 years and doesn't participate in the Organization, period! is confusing to me and makes it abundantly clear which side of Problem VS Solution you are on. For those that voted for Obama voice your opinion,for those that DONT vote………….. you have no right to complain. Did you make the connection Tom? All input is great from those that ARE still involved. No matter what happens either way it wont effect you Tom, so try to not poison it for the rest of us please.


I have every right to express my opinions and you'll never take that right from me. I am a PAID UP MEMBER of the NFAA and the ASA....That gives me the SAME RIGHTS as you have. Furthermore, you are totally unknowledgable about my level of participation/shooting. Sure, I don't shoot the Vegas shoot or the NFAA BIG EVENTS....
My dues are my "involvement" and you have no right to tell me that I do not have a right to speak out. How many years have you been an NFAA member? If you can't hit "40 years" then don't tell me I don't have a right to voice my opinion.
You listen to those on here that are NOT NFAA members....as in the thread concerning THOSE PEOPLE complaining about having to be NFAA members to shoot in State, Sectional, and National events. You let them air their gripes and call the NFAA "Stupid" etc for having the rules concerning State and National affiliation...but that is OK, for NON-MEMBERS that haven't paid a DIME to carry on and slam the NFAA?

Talk about "double standards"....you found yourself what you think is a sacrificial lamb to pounce upon, or so you think.

As a paid up member of the NFAA, I have as much right to express as you do...and it matters not whether I shoot the tournaments or not, period. My "participation" is more than just attending a couple of shoots and TAKING from the sport. My "Participation" is active involvement in management of leagues, coaching people, and managing a quite successful event each December. The "participation" for this is never-ending in the planning, updating, promotional, and direct involvement of keeping things running on an even keel. Don't you ever tell me I'm not "involved" and don't "Participate", cuz you haven't a clue of what are speaking about!

US & International Archer Magazine, current issue, March-April, 2011 Vol. 30, No. 2: Pages 48-52. Do you think THIS got done by itself from a "non-participating" person? US & International Archer Magazine, July-August Vol. 29, No. 4, pages 24-26. Do you think all THIS "participation" got done by itself?

Archery Focus magazine for the past 8 or nine years....that "involvement" and "participation" doesn't count? 

Just what exactly have YOU done to put BACK INTO THE SPORT? Please, pray tell.... It is YOU that knows not of what you speak.

You said it above, FITA/NAA has a "dress code is an Organization wide code not just a class." Yes, and why is that? Simple...because a set of rules for "a select few" will NEVER WORK....if you have a code, it really needs to be ACROSS THE BOARD and enforced for everyone, plain and simple. They have done it right, they have taken the flak, and the shooters know the dress code and comply; otherwise those not wishing to comply simply don't show up. Fine; their choice, but the dress code rule stands.

Seems that the double standard isn't within the leadership of the NFAA, but rather SOME of the membership....or so they say they are members, that is.
NFAA PAID UP MEMBER since 1969...ME!
field14


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> I have every right to express my opinions and you'll never take that right from me. I am a PAID UP MEMBER of the NFAA and the ASA....That gives me the SAME RIGHTS as you have. Furthermore, you are totally unknowledgable about my level of participation/shooting. Sure, I don't shoot the Vegas shoot or the NFAA BIG EVENTS....
> My dues are my "involvement" and you have no right to tell me that I do not have a right to speak out. How many years have you been an NFAA member? If you can't hit "40 years" then don't tell me I don't have a right to voice my opinion.
> You listen to those on here that are NOT NFAA members....as in the thread concerning THOSE PEOPLE complaining about having to be NFAA members to shoot in State, Sectional, and National events. You let them air their gripes and call the NFAA "Stupid" etc for having the rules concerning State and National affiliation...but that is OK, for NON-MEMBERS that haven't paid a DIME to carry on and slam the NFAA?
> 
> Talk about "double standards"....you found yourself what you think is a sacrificial lamb to pounce upon, or so you think.
> 
> As a paid up member of the NFAA, I have as much right to express as you do...and it matters not whether I shoot the tournaments or not, period. My "participation" is more than just attending a couple of shoots and TAKING from the sport. My "Participation" is active involvement in management of leagues, coaching people, and managing a quite successful event each December. The "participation" for this is never-ending in the planning, updating, promotional, and direct involvement of keeping things running on an even keel. Don't you ever tell me I'm not "involved" and don't "Participate", cuz you haven't a clue of what are speaking about!
> 
> US & International Archer Magazine, current issue, March-April, 2011 Vol. 30, No. 2: Pages 48-52. Do you think THIS got done by itself from a "non-participating" person? US & International Archer Magazine, July-August Vol. 29, No. 4, pages 24-26. Do you think all THIS "participation" got done by itself?
> 
> Archery Focus magazine for the past 8 or nine years....that "involvement" and "participation" doesn't count?
> 
> Just what exactly have YOU done to put BACK INTO THE SPORT? Please, pray tell.... It is YOU that knows not of what you speak.
> 
> You said it above, FITA/NAA has a "dress code is an Organization wide code not just a class." Yes, and why is that? Simple...because a set of rules for "a select few" will NEVER WORK....if you have a code, it really needs to be ACROSS THE BOARD and enforced for everyone, plain and simple. They have done it right, they have taken the flak, and the shooters know the dress code and comply; otherwise those not wishing to comply simply don't show up. Fine; their choice, but the dress code rule stands.
> 
> Seems that the double standard isn't within the leadership of the NFAA, but rather SOME of the membership....or so they say they are members, that is.
> NFAA PAID UP MEMBER since 1969...ME!
> field14



From your own post about not shooting and attending "A" big shoot 3 years ago it was easy to deduce that you where no longer a "Member". If you infact are a paid member of the NFAA then by all means feel free to speak your opinion about NFAA matters and accept my apologies. 

Are you a paid PRO as well? If you are a Paid PRO then i would ask you to TRY to project a more positive attitude towards other PRO's trying to improve the sport. If you arent a paid up card carrying PRO…………………. Well you know where this will go. I look forward to your answer. 

Your comparison about FITA/NAA having a blanket dress code and comparing that to the NFAA only shows how much you arent paying attention. How many classes does the NAA/FITA have??? How many classes does the NFAA/ASA/IBO have??? HMMMMMMMMMM Think maybe we have WAYYY to many classes spreading us too thin? Do you think you can show up to a FITA event and shoot in a class by yourself for a national championship? Their side is streamlined and efficient ours is the "Everyone is a winner" cluster Eff. LMAO Come on man, Ketchup mustard.

As to your question about what i have done or do for the sport………….. LMAO i don't do anything Tom. I am just a pro that shoots arrows but has nothing to do with the sport or its development. :shade::wink::wink: I certainly don't have a record of where my involvement has been documented so i can revel in it. You (especially YOU) will NEVER know what i do in the industry because i don't need people or want people to know because when people like you know it becomes harder to get things done. The people that do know, know for a reason and you are not one of them. Speaking of people who know not of what they speak?  Nobody knows how truly ignorant you are until you open your mouth and prove it. But as they say "Ignorance is bliss". 

Thank you for being a NFAA member longer then i have been alive! I appreciate your life long commitment to the sport. Now please get out of the 1969 mentality. try to be productive to the conversation and movement instead of counter productive.


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## field14

bigGP said:


> From your own post about not shooting and attending "A" big shoot 3 years ago it was easy to deduce that you where no longer a "Member". If you infact are a paid member of the NFAA then by all means feel free to speak your opinion about NFAA matters and accept my apologies.
> 
> Are you a paid PRO as well? If you are a Paid PRO then i would ask you to TRY to project a more positive attitude towards other PRO's trying to improve the sport. If you arent a paid up card carrying PRO…………………. Well you know where this will go. I look forward to your answer.
> 
> Your comparison about FITA/NAA having a blanket dress code and comparing that to the NFAA only shows how much you arent paying attention. How many classes does the NAA/FITA have??? How many classes does the NFAA/ASA/IBO have??? HMMMMMMMMMM Think maybe we have WAYYY to many classes spreading us too thin? Do you think you can show up to a FITA event and shoot in a class by yourself for a national championship? Their side is streamlined and efficient ours is the "Everyone is a winner" cluster Eff. LMAO Come on man, Ketchup mustard.
> 
> As to your question about what i have done or do for the sport………….. LMAO i don't do anything Tom. I am just a pro that shoots arrows but has nothing to do with the sport or its development. :shade::wink::wink: I certainly don't have a record of where my involvement has been documented so i can revel in it. You (especially YOU) will NEVER know what i do in the industry because i don't need people or want people to know because when people like you know it becomes harder to get things done. The people that do know, know for a reason and you are not one of them. Speaking of people who know not of what they speak?  Nobody knows how truly ignorant you are until you open your mouth and prove it. But as they say "Ignorance is bliss".
> 
> Thank you for being a NFAA member longer then i have been alive! I appreciate your life long commitment to the sport. Now please get out of the 1969 mentality. try to be productive to the conversation and movement instead of counter productive.


Don't give me this 'if you are in fact a paid up NFAA member' stuff...that borders on accusing me of stating an untruth, and is not appreciated, nor acceptable. My expiration date on my NFAA card is Dec. 21, 2012, in fact! Thus, I'm paid up IN ADVANCE....can the same be said about you (paid up in advance)? However, the above apology, is of course, accepted without prejudice.

Heck no, I'm not a paid up NFAA pro...why would I be when I haven't competed in an event eligible for Pro points in quite some time. Was I a Pro in the past, yes, but not now, nor will I be, especially at the my current level of shooter prowess, hahaha.

I felt I was providing a positive attitude for the Pros...in that I do not feel it is acceptable to seemingly cram a "dress code" down the Pros' throats (even if the Pros are volunteering to do so) and let the rest of the members just do whatever feels good. To me, the Pros put on their clothes in the same manner as everyone else, and, especially when it comes to dress coding; what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Now, you bit off a good one with regard to "too many classes" in the NFAA, IBO, ASA....I couldn't agree with you more, in fact. I've been a proponent of streamlining the number of classes and divisions within those organizations for years. To me, a score of 520 is a 520 regardless of which equipment was used to shoot said score. You think the dress code is a hornet's nest? Trust me, you don't want to even start to go there with regard to shooting classes and divisions within the NFAA! Been there, and done that; got shot down every single time, and it will continue to be that way in the foreseeable future. Afterall, we need to give an award just for showing up/signing up, don't we? HAHAHAHAHA.

Take your shots about ignorance and "ignorance is bliss"....YOU are the one that wanted "proof" of what I do or don't do, or so it seemed. That is just the tip of the iceberg, in fact of what "participation level" I've maintained for the past 40 years....most of it is PUTTING BACK INTO THE SPORT...and not "taking everything I could get out of it" and then going on to the next victim.

I also will bring this up, but only for making a point. How would it be accepted by the PROS if they were asked to get out and "pound the bricks" and seek out "money contributions" from local vendors, their multitude of sponsors, doctors, lawyers, car dealerships, etc...that are in the local area of where these big NFAA events are being held? The PROS want bigger payouts, correct? Well.....it sure works for the Presley's shoot...we get out and pound the bricks asking the above, along with manufacturers for support in both "money contributions" and "door prize" contributions!!! I think that the NFAA Pro members should "maybe" get involved more directly with seeking out such contributors to their money purses at the Vegas shoot, the NFAA Indoor Nationals, etc. Banks, doctors, lawyers, Union Locals, car dealerships, real estate people, hardware stores, millworkers, lawn care....the list goes on and on for people that would be willing to contribute something ($50 and on up...it is a start, and it grows quickly) IF THEY ARE ASKED. But for the Pros to just say they want bigger payouts...and not investigate the above probabilities....well....you see where this is going.
The Pros perhaps need to get moving too and not expect the NFAA/WAF to come up with all the answers. Vegas and Louisville are big places; and you can bet that the locals would be willing to give some contributions to that "Money Purse" if people just TRY to get 'r dun.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> Don't give me this 'if you are in fact a paid up NFAA member' stuff...that borders on accusing me of stating an untruth, and is not appreciated, nor acceptable. My expiration date on my NFAA card is Dec. 21, 2012, in fact! Thus, I'm paid up IN ADVANCE....can the same be said about you (paid up in advance)? However, the above apology, is of course, accepted without prejudice.
> 
> Heck no, I'm not a paid up NFAA pro...why would I be when I haven't competed in an event eligible for Pro points in quite some time. Was I a Pro in the past, yes, but not now, nor will I be, especially at the my current level of shooter prowess, hahaha.
> 
> I felt I was providing a positive attitude for the Pros...in that I do not feel it is acceptable to seemingly cram a "dress code" down the Pros' throats (even if the Pros are volunteering to do so) and let the rest of the members just do whatever feels good. To me, the Pros put on their clothes in the same manner as everyone else, and, especially when it comes to dress coding; what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
> 
> Now, you bit off a good one with regard to "too many classes" in the NFAA, IBO, ASA....I couldn't agree with you more, in fact. I've been a proponent of streamlining the number of classes and divisions within those organizations for years. To me, a score of 520 is a 520 regardless of which equipment was used to shoot said score. You think the dress code is a hornet's nest? Trust me, you don't want to even start to go there with regard to shooting classes and divisions within the NFAA! Been there, and done that; got shot down every single time, and it will continue to be that way in the foreseeable future. Afterall, we need to give an award just for showing up/signing up, don't we? HAHAHAHAHA.
> 
> Take your shots about ignorance and "ignorance is bliss"....YOU are the one that wanted "proof" of what I do or don't do, or so it seemed. That is just the tip of the iceberg, in fact of what "participation level" I've maintained for the past 40 years....most of it is PUTTING BACK INTO THE SPORT...and not "taking everything I could get out of it" and then going on to the next victim.
> 
> I also will bring this up, but only for making a point. How would it be accepted by the PROS if they were asked to get out and "pound the bricks" and seek out "money contributions" from local vendors, their multitude of sponsors, doctors, lawyers, car dealerships, etc...that are in the local area of where these big NFAA events are being held? The PROS want bigger payouts, correct? Well.....it sure works for the Presley's shoot...we get out and pound the bricks asking the above, along with manufacturers for support in both "money contributions" and "door prize" contributions!!! I think that the NFAA Pro members should "maybe" get involved more directly with seeking out such contributors to their money purses at the Vegas shoot, the NFAA Indoor Nationals, etc. Banks, doctors, lawyers, Union Locals, car dealerships, real estate people, hardware stores, millworkers, lawn care....the list goes on and on for people that would be willing to contribute something ($50 and on up...it is a start, and it grows quickly) IF THEY ARE ASKED. But for the Pros to just say they want bigger payouts...and not investigate the above probabilities....well....you see where this is going.
> The Pros perhaps need to get moving too and not expect the NFAA/WAF to come up with all the answers. Vegas and Louisville are big places; and you can bet that the locals would be willing to give some contributions to that "Money Purse" if people just TRY to get 'r dun.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Bro you just continue to dig the hole. What Pro in their right mind would solicit a sponsorship for our class when we don't control our own destiny or more importantly HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT? I am sure your aware of the apparent "Monies owed" to the Pro class by the NFAA and where that money went over the past decade or more? Your continued support of "We all put our pants on the same" is ridiculous in the scope of following the recipe that EVERY OTHER SPORT ON EARTH IN RECORDED HISTORY has laid down for us to follow to success. 

So here we go once again………… Why do you feel you should have ANY say in what the Pro's due if you ARENT ONE? Do you see me sticking my nose into what the BHFS or Barebow people do? No because i don't have a vested interest in those classes. Will those class's get televised or draw non endemic sponsors to our sport? Its the typical armchair quarter back sense of entitlement archers have to try to control,influence and hold back a class they have ZERO INVOLVEMENT. I would be more then happy to help the BHFS people if they want help but when the Pro's want to do something that ONLY effects us why should non Pro's (Like YOU) have a say in it? Cuz you have been a NFAA member since 69'? NOT!!( I am sure you disagree LOL) While you may have involvement in the NFAA your involvement in the PROFESSIONAL class and its evolution and promotion is counter productive and harmful.

Bringing up the Pressley's shoot is totally irrelevant to our discussion but surprises me not at all. Its GREAT that you and others are making that shoot grow and all but that shoot is its own benefactor in that you don't have the NFAA and its red tape and agenda's to deal with. That shoot has 100% control over how and where its revenue and sponsorship monies is spent.

In order for this sport to truly get over the hump we need to make a REAl Pro class, make it televisable and make the PRO class accountable and presentable. For the "Joe's" "AM's" or whatever you want to call them it has to be FUN FUN FUN! We are all there to compete but at the elite level its a different animal all together. To try to keep them equal is an exercise in futility ( And the definition of Insanity,guaranteed to keep the sport where it is) Show me ONE successful,televised sport where Pro's and Joe's are the same in every regard like you want?

Keep on doing what you do Tom.Keep promoting Pressley's and coaching and shooting whatever events you shoot keeping track of every page number and every paragraph and every sentence in every magazine your name or picture appear but PLEASE STOP trying to hold back the Professional division of archery of which you are NOT a member. Or Join and come donate


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## field14

What makes you think I'm holding back the "Pro" division...We call it the "Championship Division" at the Presley's shoot...and distribute those contributed monies based on percentage participation for each Championship shooting class at the tournament, PLUS $50 of their $85 dollar entry fee goes to the particular registrant's shooting class and is NOT given to some other shooting class to boost the Men's or anyone elses class. It isn't rocket science, it is simply to distribute the wealth by percentage participation...that is where the contributed purse goes, it is easy to track, and sure easy to calculate, too.
So, the way it works, is that if 50% of the registrants in the Championship Division are in Championship Female Freestyle, then....50% of the "contributed purse" goes to that class, PLUS $50 of each registrant for that class' registration fee. Then it is payed out by using the NFAA payout chart for number of shooters and % payout.
THAT is why I feel I do indeed have somewhat of a vested interest in what the PROS are doing and feel it necessary to at least try to keep tabs on what is going on. I sure wouldn't call that "holding back" the Pro Division (even if we call it the Championship Division); I haven't heard any complaints about the Payout at the Presley's Tournament.
I make a suggestion that perhaps the PRO members themselves outta get out and "pound the bricks" and bring something with them to the party. But of course, that was conveniently ignored by you; since it is easier to expect SOMEONE ELSE to pick up the slack and GIVE YOU everything. That way, your "group" wouldn't have to lift a finger to HELP THEMSELVES. You worry about the future, but you sure chose to ignore the fact that your group (PROS) are going to have to get off their pedestal and make some proposals to further the gains...and that is getting more directly involved in coming up with their own purse...or at least being an integral part in contacting and helping to generate contributions and sponsors for said purse....NOBODY is going to just up and give it to you; your group is going to have to help go out and get it. Money doesn't grow on trees, now does it?

I never said that everyone should be the same in EVERY regard....where the heck did you get that from? I did, however say that I do indeed support a dress code for EVERYONE and no singling out of anyone or any "division". ONE dress code, keep it simple, and enforce it. Don't expect the PROS to do what you don't expect of the others, and the others?, Well, the dress code would be set; plain and simple, enforced plain and simple, and let the boycotters boycott. The rest? They'll get used to the idea.

However, your mind is made up, and you have selected your weekly "whipping post" There will be no "agreement" between me and you. 
I guess Jean-Paul Sartre had it right when he wrote the novel, "Les Jeux Sont Faits"...you outta read it, in the language it was written in. Doesn't have much to do with archery, however, but the message is pretty clear.
Je viens de finir; tu es vraiment aveugle.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

Tom.... I think we should stop and reflect here.

The thrust of the thread was about dress code in Vegas.

Jeff answered the question directly... Not an NFAA event, No dress code...... end of it really, but. No it seems it needs to be beaten to a pulp. 

In the Pro division the current rules will be enforced going forward. If your so hell bent on getting a Org wide dress code change then please use the tools and friends you have in the am classes to bring it to bear. It is NOT and I repeat NOT on my agenda to even address it from the Pro division. It's an NFAA thing to sort out what the Gen membership does not a Pro thing.

I dont agree with your self assessment of ""I felt I was providing a positive attitude for the Pros...in that I do not feel it is acceptable to seemingly cram a "dress code" down the Pros' throats (even if the Pros are volunteering to do so) and let the rest of the members just do whatever feels good.""
Seems... your trying to play both sides Tom... on one side you say Dont force a dress code on the Pros!!..... on the other you say Make a dress code for everyone!!.. Which is it ????

The Pressley shoot... is it an NFAA Sanctioned event?.. ie Pro points?.I really dont know, if not then it's a private affair and really has little or no bearing on the way the NFAA is run nor should the NFAA have an influence on the way you run your shoot.
As for "pounding the bricks"... no I dont think it should be a mandate that the Pro's go out and do that either. It's the Promoters job. That's why they are the promoter.... As a promoter you are selling a product. The product your selling is exposure of a clients product or service to those who might use it. What brings value?... the value is several of the top Professional archers in the country will attend thus bringing interest from the Am classes and others interested in the sport.
The best you might hope for is endorsement by a Pro regarding a specific product thereby adding extra value to your advertising client. As a promoter I would expect an attempt to get some interaction form those that are pros to add value to a shoot or event...Autograph Sessions, Photo ops, interviews, news coverage, specialized merchandise etc... if a promoter is not capitalizing on that then they are leaving money and opportunity on the table. What more of a wet dream could you get then to advertise that you will have all 10 of the top 10 Pro Male Archers as well as all 5 of the top 5 top Pro Women in the US and one event on one line shooting it out... seriously?? What MORE do you want them to bring to the table???? They have pretty much handed you a gold mine opportunity by being there. It's up to a good promoter to work it.....
If you are calling it a Championship Division, I would guess it's simply so you can have non Pro's shoot it. I would look at it as a matter of economics for your shoot. The more you have in Champ class the more the promoter makes right?...it's no biggie - it's business I get it. 

It's important that you keep it in perspective Tom...I'm trying to do that myself here but there is more and more unnecessary fuel being thrown at a fire that seems to be under control and headed in a good direction.....

I think this is pretty much beat into submission wouldn't you agree by now?


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> What makes you think I'm holding back the "Pro" division...We call it the "Championship Division" at the Presley's shoot...and distribute those contributed monies based on percentage participation for each Championship shooting class at the tournament, PLUS $50 of their $85 dollar entry fee goes to the particular registrant's shooting class and is NOT given to some other shooting class to boost the Men's or anyone elses class. It isn't rocket science, it is simply to distribute the wealth by percentage participation...that is where the contributed purse goes, it is easy to track, and sure easy to calculate, too.
> So, the way it works, is that if 50% of the registrants in the Championship Division are in Championship Female Freestyle, then....50% of the "contributed purse" goes to that class, PLUS $50 of each registrant for that class' registration fee. Then it is payed out by using the NFAA payout chart for number of shooters and % payout.
> THAT is why I feel I do indeed have somewhat of a vested interest in what the PROS are doing and feel it necessary to at least try to keep tabs on what is going on. I sure wouldn't call that "holding back" the Pro Division (even if we call it the Championship Division); I haven't heard any complaints about the Payout at the Presley's Tournament.
> I make a suggestion that perhaps the PRO members themselves outta get out and "pound the bricks" and bring something with them to the party. But of course, that was conveniently ignored by you; since it is easier to expect SOMEONE ELSE to pick up the slack and GIVE YOU everything. That way, your "group" wouldn't have to lift a finger to HELP THEMSELVES. You worry about the future, but you sure chose to ignore the fact that your group (PROS) are going to have to get off their pedestal and make some proposals to further the gains...and that is getting more directly involved in coming up with their own purse...or at least being an integral part in contacting and helping to generate contributions and sponsors for said purse....NOBODY is going to just up and give it to you; your group is going to have to help go out and get it. Money doesn't grow on trees, now does it?
> 
> I never said that everyone should be the same in EVERY regard....where the heck did you get that from? I did, however say that I do indeed support a dress code for EVERYONE and no singling out of anyone or any "division". ONE dress code, keep it simple, and enforce it. Don't expect the PROS to do what you don't expect of the others, and the others?, Well, the dress code would be set; plain and simple, enforced plain and simple, and let the boycotters boycott. The rest? They'll get used to the idea.
> 
> However, your mind is made up, and you have selected your weekly "whipping post" There will be no "agreement" between me and you.
> I guess Jean-Paul Sartre had it right when he wrote the novel, "Les Jeux Sont Faits"...you outta read it, in the language it was written in. Doesn't have much to do with archery, however, but the message is pretty clear.
> Je viens de finir; tu es vraiment aveugle.
> field14 (Tom D.)




You just don't get it. Your shoot at Pressleys has NOTHING to do with the PROFESSIONAL division in archery or the NFAA dress code but since its apparently your shining jewel of achievement and you are unable to focus on anything else have at it. 

I will say it once again Tom please try to read carefully. You are NOT a PRO nor do you have any vested interest (Or rights) in the PROFESSIONAL sport of archery. You perceived right to "speak up",soil and taint progress in the PRO class is out of line. Your attitude is the most prevalent PROBLEM in archery and simply put harmful to our sport. You are a NFAA member and help promote a NON PRO, NON NFAA sanctioned shoot ( And for that i thank you). But PLEASE try to not undermine what PRO's in the sport are trying to do to better OUR game with your negativity,ignorance,belligerence and lack of foresight towards the PRO's class. But then again you are just doing your job.


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## field14

I'll just say this once....Most often when someone or some group is trying to GROW, they must take on some responsibility for said growth. Those wanting the growth cannot take a back seat and expect the organizations to do all the footwork because it is the PROMOTER's jobs to do so. "That's not my job," hasn't been cutting it for the NFAA Pros, so obviously something else has to be done. Trying the same ole thing the same ole way, and expecting different results hasn't been working...neither from the WAF/NFAA standpoint, nor from the NFAA Pro standpoint. We vs. they isn't working...so, and I'm hoping the NFAA Pros are intent upon doing this....the PROS are going to have to bear some of the burden of going out and working WITH the WAF/NFAA to get those sponsorships and not expect the WAF/NFAA to do ALL the footwork. I'd just about guarantee you that more sponsors and the "increase in the payout" is NOT just going to come running to the NFAA Pros' doorstep and be dropped off in a couple of big payout checks. You all want it? You're going to have to go out and get it.

Sure hope you are successful at it. Seems that no matter what I say, or try to say...it is always being perceived as NEGATIVE...and I'm believing that a lot of it is because many don't want to read or hear the TRUTH, or as in "A Few Good Men"... "You want the truth? You WANT the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth."
Truth is...from me....FIDGAS at this point, cuz it is all falling upon deaf ears anyways. Might as well pee into a fan.
Don't bother putting me down or peeing in my face anymore on this subject...cuz as was stated earlier, it has been beat to death anyways.
field14


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> I'll just say this once....Most often when someone or some group is trying to GROW, they must take on some responsibility for said growth. Those wanting the growth cannot take a back seat and expect the organizations to do all the footwork because it is the PROMOTER's jobs to do so. "That's not my job," hasn't been cutting it for the NFAA Pros, so obviously something else has to be done. Trying the same ole thing the same ole way, and expecting different results hasn't been working...neither from the WAF/NFAA standpoint, nor from the NFAA Pro standpoint. We vs. they isn't working...so, and I'm hoping the NFAA Pros are intent upon doing this....the PROS are going to have to bear some of the burden of going out and working WITH the WAF/NFAA to get those sponsorships and not expect the WAF/NFAA to do ALL the footwork. I'd just about guarantee you that more sponsors and the "increase in the payout" is NOT just going to come running to the NFAA Pros' doorstep and be dropped off in a couple of big payout checks. You all want it? You're going to have to go out and get it.
> 
> Sure hope you are successful at it. Seems that no matter what I say, or try to say...it is always being perceived as NEGATIVE...and I'm believing that a lot of it is because many don't want to read or hear the TRUTH, or as in "A Few Good Men"... "You want the truth? You WANT the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth."
> Truth is...from me....FIDGAS at this point, cuz it is all falling upon deaf ears anyways. Might as well pee into a fan.
> Don't bother putting me down or peeing in my face anymore on this subject...cuz as was stated earlier, it has been beat to death anyways.
> field14


Thanks Tom we appreciate your understanding. As for the same ole thing and trying the same ole way………….. Just assume with this issue just like alot of others,there are things going on you don't and shouldnt know about.


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## FV Chuck

FV Chuck sits.... holding head in hands.....shaking

ugh.

Ok Tom.....

OK well thanks, .....I think.....

Moving on


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## field14

bigGP said:


> Thanks Tom we appreciate your understanding. As for the same ole thing and trying the same ole way………….. Just assume with this issue just like alot of others,there are things going on you don't and shouldnt know about.


You guys just don't seem to understand that I've spent a lot of my time in this game WANTING to see the PRO Division succeed. When I was a "Pro member" (that has been a long time ago), I worked hard trying to get the "decent" payouts, and that included pounding the bricks to try to help get more payouts. I am with you guys in that a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP should have a higher payout; for Pete's sake, afterall, it IS a NATIONAL Championship! 

I'm all FOR the Pro Division growing and getting higher payouts, but at the same time, based upon my personal experiences, it is not an easy road to hoe, and it cannot be expected for the 'mother organization' to again, do all the footwork and the "Pros" just show up and reap the benefits from the "Promoter's JOB"...nope....it is also the JOB of the PRO group to shoulder a lot of this burden and go out and seek (so it gets started) those increased revenues they so dearly want (and deserve). The source CANNOT be ALL from manufacturers and archery vendors, and doesn't have to be either. There are tons of other sources that are willing to contribute...and they don't expect you to "SELL" their product or even write endorsement articles; they are willing to support a good cause for only the acknowledgement that they did indeed contribute! 
It isn't ALWAYS about the contributor making a big or fast buck. Archery tournaments aren't ALL about "making money" either or making a big profit; especially not at the stage of development that NFAA/WAF is at with regard to PRO payouts at this time.

Just some understanding of my position was something that I was hoping for...and I got cut off at the knees, blasted, ridiculed, called "ignorant", and on and on....and you guys wonder why people don't want to bother? Look in the mirror....Like I said, I should be saying FIDGAS and have said FIDGAS, cuz it is like peeing into a fan in trying to help...only to be smacked in the face, or kicked in the arse....

Tom D.


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## FV Chuck

Tom.....

Seriously man...

Your completely missing this and blowing up into something it's simply not.

Let it go... your just trying to fan flames and blow.
Not being a pro anymore and being off the tour for quite some time, you've missed some key developments.
At this point it's going past all the points in the Sticky at the top of this forum... please lets not get to far over the edge.

Stop...please........really


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## field14

you got it....FIDGAS.

field14


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## FV Chuck

Thank you


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## deadx

Hmmmmmm......I am really confused how this thread could have started out with Big GP and FV Chuck and Field 14 basically agreeing on the fact a dress code is needed for the pro ranks and all of a sudden the thread takes a turn for for the worse and allegations of "no dog in this hunt" start flying and the thread degenerates from there. Lets remember the original thread starter was about a "dress code for the pros". I know Field 14 very well and he was a pro long before I was a NFAA member and I have been a member for 20 years. He is not a pro now due to some medical reasons so maybe he doesn`t have a "dog in this hunt" and I agree that feedback from NFAA pros is what we are looking for here.
This thread seems to have taken the same tack that a lot of pro meetings have taken in regard to a dress code. Lets get the pro org up and running and then I think a lot of the "dress code" problems are going to iron themselves out. If a sponsor that is paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to a tournament to promote their product(s) wants the people in the tournament to present themselves in a certain manner of dress ( and of course they certainly will) then there will be compliance or there will be no money. I am Steve Boylan, an NFAA Senior Pro from Ilinois.


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## target guy

Wow this thread has gotten off base a little like Steve mentioned. I will throw this out there just for a thought.
When a pro shoots a “non NFAA’ event do they still not represent the pro division of the NFAA? I don’t mean an ASA event but something sponsored by the NFAA like Vegas. AT Vegas in the championship division you earn extra money if you are an NFAA pro. I would think to collect that extra money you should be required to follow the pro rules at that event.
This then brings in another subject as food for thought. When conducting interviews, tech seminars etc. I think you are representing archery, and the pro division of archery. My belief is if you are an NFAA pro then your conduct and dress, regardless of the venue should always be that of an NFAA pro.
Just my thoughts, take them for what they are, BigJP I do not add my name to any post, Chuck knows me very well and understands why I do not.


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## mightybaron

Wow this is unbelieveable!!!! Or is it with someone getting involved?


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## FV Chuck

mightybaron said:


> Wow this is unbelieveable!!!! Or is it with someone getting involved?


Ive read your line several times... I have to admit, I'm missing your question, sorry. Can you expand just a bit please?


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## deadx

Ditto here???????


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## AT_X_HUNTER

Wow, I've read this whole thread even though I knew what was going to be said in it to begin with. LOL.

Should the participants in Pro Divisions be held to a higher standard? I think so. But I think we also run into an issue as to what defines a pro. How else do we discern a pro from everyone else?

I've shot pro division for a couple years now but have been competing for over 20. Honestly, the vast majority of the pro line looks and dresses fine... in my opinion. I don't have an issue with Levis. But I don't like pants sagging or tore up, that's my opinion too. For the most part the pros wear colored sponsor shirts anyway (except for the few of us that aren't sponsored). Maybe I missed it but of those shooting on the pro line I just saw a sea of red/white, black/white Hoyt, PSE, and Mathew's shirts, with a couple blue/yellow Alpine's mixed in. :shade: I just didn't see a bunch of sagging, cut up, horse poo covered, pants with ripped, spaghetti stained, one size too small, white T-shirts on the shooting line.:star:

I do think we need to set ourselves apart from the rest of the crowd. It would be nice to be able to tell apart the serious shooters from the recreational weekend warriors. That I suppose is a start. But beyond that we need to separate ourselves by more than a decent outfit and $75 in extra dues. But that is another topic all together.

Bryan Lovely
NFAA pro, Indiana


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## rossing6

That last one was funny....kidding though....I agree we all need to have a little class in order to help promote the sport...with that said, don't make rules you aren't going to enforce...look at all forms of government...BUT if a rule is on the books, abide by it gracefully, and if you don't agree, work to change it...gracefully...Cheers.


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## carlosii

bowhunter_va_28 said:


> I haven't seen an ASA tournament on TV lately, even with a dress code.


not the full tournament, but the Morgan's did highlight the ASA Classic on their show, Life On The Road last week.


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## Dan Zawacki

Here's an outsiders perspective - I'm not a pro, and will likely never actually compete, even on an amateur level. However, there is an awful LOT to be said about appearance. Whether or not we like it, and whether or not we think the world _should_ work this way, we are judged by our appearance. The judgements people make about us based on our appearance are instantaneous and permanent. They color all of the subsequent judgements they make about our behaviors, attitudes, and actions. 

Tom D (Field14) is dead right where dress codes are concerned. The rest of the world sees people dressing in a sloppy, slobbish manner, and they will judge the entire sport based on the first several appearances they encounter. Fair or not, right or not, it is nonetheless true. We can whine and complain about it, we can throw infantile fits about our 'individual right of expression' all we want, but neither of those things change the fact that we as a whole will be judged by the appearance of our group as a collective.

Professionals, of course, should look the part. This means slacks that fit, and properly cover the socks, breaking slightly on shoes (not sneakers or boots, shoes - with laces - a pari of cap toed bluchers, brogued wingtips, or maybe monk straps) and a properly fitting, properly tucked in collared shirt. As a nod to the nature of the sport, I don't see a problem with the shirt having short sleeves. Hair should be clean and neat. Long hair is not objectionable, but it needs to be kept neat. Fingernails clean, and short for men. If a woman wants to wear her nails long - it may make things a bit difficult for her logistically in handling her equipment, but she should be able to do so - so long as they are well manicured.

Non Professionals should still strive for a neat appearance when attending an event. It's one thing to practice, or shoot in a league, quite another to show up at a spectated (or maybe even televised) tourney. This means at least trousers, of not real slacks. Not cargo pants or jeans, but corduroys, trousers, slacks, Dockers, etc. If sneakers, then they should be solid in color (all black or all white please - no electric blue or neon green) Appropriately neat boots with clean lines shouldn't be out of the question for amateurs, but please no construction work boots, winter hiking boots, galoshes, or gaudy / decorative cowboy boots. A plain, freshly laundered solid colored T-shirt may not be entirely out of the question, but, really, how difficult is it to come up with a solid colored polo shirt with a collar and three buttons? Again, neat and clean hair and nails is a must.

This sport includes a lot of "good ol' boys" and self-styled "country folk". That's not a problem. They are quite welcome in my opinion. That welcome, however, gets worn out quite rapidly when they feel the need to thrust their 'country cred' as an image upon the rest of us. A dress code is not an attempt to quash anyone's individuality - it is about having enough respect for the sport you love to represent it in a positive light to the rest of the world, while at the same time having the presence of mind to aknowledge that whether or not you like it, the rest of the world has certain judgmental standards.


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## Dan Zawacki

Another thought from an outsider's perspective - If NASCAR and Poker can get traction in this country as high dollar, high viewership spectator events, then Archer sure as heck can!

Aside from image problems associated with physical appearance, there hasn't yet been a confluence of desire, talent, and critical mass of participation to catch the right attention from the right people. However, research into HOW these other things (stock car racing and televised poker) got their explosions of popularity could bear some serious fruit.

Edit:- by desire and talent, I am more referring to the manner in which the sport as a whole gets 'sold' to the general public, not in how the athletes themselves compete. There's GOT to be a break somewhere, the right people to talk to, the right presentations to make to the right media executives, something...


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## carlosii

sad to see some folks who all contribute, each in their own way, to our sport getting into a pissin' contest. the issues are way above my pay grade.


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## Blueberry_DLD

field14 said:


> Some might not like what I'm going to say...but so be it.
> 
> People pee and moan about archery not getting any billing or TV time....well...no wonder! Many of the competitors at these big events dress like a bunch of slobs and look the part of a true country bumpkin!
> What ever happened to common decency and going out into public in a presentable fashion???
> 
> Fashion statements, my foot! That is a bunch of malarky, IMHO.
> 
> I wish that Vegas and ALL major events, indoors and out would require and ENFORCE a dress code...at least to the point of prohibiting torn or ill fitting jeans, tank tops, shirts with less than "clean" depictions or words on them, halter tops, and such items. And shoes? Learn to tie the things....!!
> 
> If we look like bums, we can hardly expect the TV or other media to notice us other than from our crass way of dressing...and they assume that we act like we dress, which in many cases, SOME do!
> 
> This sloppines in manner of dress isn't only for archery events, as we all know and can clearly see...Pajama bottoms and flip flops worn to SCHOOL or out do dinner? Filthy, torn, ill-fitting jeans or pants, tank top shirts that are torn and look like they came from Good Will seven times over? People complain about a dress code and it being enforced? Well, maybe it is high time the associations mandated a dress code and enforced it so that people come to the events looking presentable...instead of looking like a bunch of bums.
> Go ahead, make my day...and bash me....but...remember, it isn't a TRUE "archer" that would dress like a bum..."shooters" tend to do this. There is a huge gap between an "ARCHER" and a "shooter", and a lot of it is with regard to manner of dress and conduct.
> 
> The way I feel about this issue might not be worth much to the "bumpkins"....but....If you don't want to come to an archery tournament dressed appropriately, then stay home...or go out into your backyard dressed like a bum. Archery (nor any other sport, for that matter) doesn't need the negative vibes gotten from a bunch of the competitors looking like rat traps.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Amen to that, well stated


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## blueglide1

I was pleasantly surprised to see this last weekend, that at least in the Senior championship div. at Presleys Open,the dress code was honored.Even though it was not an NFAA sanctioned tournament.Most NFAA Pros in attendance were dress with collared sponsor shirts, and non blue jean pants.I even heard the comment that "didnt the ones wearing blue jeans get the message?"about the code?So it is on the minds of people. The seniors ,I hope , are leading the way, and representing the division properly.I would have to say the maybe a third of the mens championship div. had proper attire.It is the first major of the year and I hope they took a look at the senior line to get a clue.
Don Ward,NFAA Senior Pro


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> I was pleasantly surprised to see this last weekend, that at least in the Senior championship div. at Presleys Open,the dress code was honored.Even though it was not an NFAA sanctioned tournament.Most NFAA Pros in attendance were dress with collared sponsor shirts, and non blue jean pants.I even heard the comment that "didnt the ones wearing blue jeans get the message?"about the code?So it is on the minds of people. The seniors ,I hope , are leading the way, and representing the division properly.I would have to say the maybe a third of the mens championship div. had proper attire.It is the first major of the year and I hope they took a look at the senior line to get a clue.
> Don Ward,NFAA Senior Pro


Don, I agree totally, with few exceptions, the dress of the folks at the Midwest Open this weekend was really good compared to past events...even in the Amateur ranks!
I agree that when a group of "Pros" (or in the case of Presley's, "Championship Division") archers takes a lead on something like this, those not following the lead stand out like a sore thumb, and when it comes to presentation and dress, standing out like a sore thumb is a NEGATIVE, and they quickly realize it and will comply to meet that lead set by the other group! When others are "neat" and prim, and the other group is raz-ma-taz, it doesn't set a good image for the latter, now does it? Things will come around simply by a group setting a higher standard, or at least one hopes for that. Might take some time, however.

Thanks to everyone that supported the Presley's Tournament this past weekend! Without you all, this could never happen


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## FV Chuck

blueglide1 said:


> I was pleasantly surprised to see this last weekend, that at least in the Senior championship div. at Presleys Open,the dress code was honored.Even though it was not an NFAA sanctioned tournament.Most NFAA Pros in attendance were dress with collared sponsor shirts, and non blue jean pants.I even heard the comment that "didnt the ones wearing blue jeans get the message?"about the code?So it is on the minds of people. The seniors ,I hope , are leading the way, and representing the division properly.I would have to say the maybe a third of the mens championship div. had proper attire.It is the first major of the year and I hope they took a look at the senior line to get a clue.
> Don Ward,NFAA Senior Pro




Nice.... thanks for doing your part Don


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