# Proper 3-d scoring



## libertyfirst (Mar 31, 2010)

I love 3-d archery and shoot as often as my business allows me to do so. I have always considered myself a conservative scorer when looking at the targets to write down the proper circle hit. Recently I had the opportunity to shoot with a excellent shooter and a two time IBO world champion. The man, aside from being a superb shot, is a fine gentleman and a pleasure to travel and shoot with. One of the shooters in our group had an arrow that was, at least in my mind, clearly out of the 11 ring. It did not touch the outside of the moulded line in the center of the target. I called it out but the champion said that in his opinion it was an 11. He explained that the shooters on the IBO circuit will give the higher score if the arrow pulls the outside of the circle where the material is depressed from the mould. The arrow, to me, doesn't actually touch the visible scoring line but the score is given nontheless I asked if this practice is widely accepted by all the top shooters and his response was a solid yes. 

Do any of you have any experience with this situation?


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

You were correct in calling that arrow out. The rules require the shaft to touch the line to get the higher score. Giving the higher score simply becaues the shaft pulls the scoring ring is totally wrong and against the rules, IBO, ASA, NFAA 3D or paper.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

If its not touching the line. Its. OUT....the gray area comes in when the ring is chewed up....it is generally easy to tell where the ring is....for the most part


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Very outside of the line. Key word is touch not cut. 

Calling arrows you just do the best you can.

I posted some pictures here of arrows clearly touching the line and you would be amazed how many called it out. Line was pulled but the arrow did hit the outside line and pulled the line with it. Seems to be a argument anytime you mention this. Often happens more with softer Rhinehart targets.

I never politic for my arrow calls. Groups calls it as they see it.
DB


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## nate121080 (Sep 3, 2006)

In our group it better be touching. It can pull all it wants but the line better be physically touching the arrow. I will call myself out if theres even the slightest possibility its not touching. People only cheat their selves by not doing so


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

It seems this question comes up a lot. This speaks loudly of a lack of integrity among shooters, including so called champions.
It's really *not hard to figure out*...Like bhtr3d said (in other words), If it touches the line it's in, If not then it's *out!*
Passively accepting a bogus call, makes you a part of that group.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

It would be wonderful and end a lot of discussion of busting groups and such, if there was one judge at every target and he called all the shooters arrows. He punches your card and you go to the next one. I believe it would be a good thing, because each judge would call them their own way- but- it would be consistent. Probably eliminate a lot of problems we face in competitive 3D in my opinion.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Alpha Burnt said:


> It would be wonderful and end a lot of discussion of busting groups and such, if there was one judge at every target and he called all the shooters arrows. He punches your card and you go to the next one. I believe it would be a good thing, because each judge would call them their own way- but- it would be consistent. Probably eliminate a lot of problems we face in competitive 3D in my opinion.


I have actually seen more conflicts when a judge is calling the arrows. Got three in a group or four. Dont call your arrow. Just part of the game. Never going to perfect. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3-D Quest said:


> It seems this question comes up a lot. This speaks loudly of a lack of integrity among shooters, including so called champions.
> It's really *not hard to figure out*...Like bhtr3d said (in other words), If it touches the line it's in, If not then it's *out!*
> Passively accepting a bogus call, makes you a part of that group.


Rules are pretty simple in 3D. Others in your group calls your arrows. It not up to you to question what they call. Accept it and move on. NOT HARD TO FIGURE OUT!
DB


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

I shot with a guy ( a so called better sr shooter) this year and he pissed me off so bad I almost quit shooting. The little weasel tried his best to get every point he could. At the end of the 2 day shoot he had coned 5 of us out of 4 targets and 8 points that moved him from 15th to 8 and put him in the money. i'm still pissed at myself.


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## OHIOARCHER36 (Oct 12, 2010)

nate121080 said:


> in our group it better be touching. It can pull all it wants but the line better be physically touching the arrow. I will call myself out if theres even the slightest possibility its not touching. People only cheat their selves by not doing so


this , x1000


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Never seen anyone not accept a call from all three other archers in the group.

Now some of you are saying if the grouped called your arrow in and you dissagree your not accepting the score from the group?

Interesting!

I did see Levi Morgan get a call in a shootdown once and argue it wasnt in and did not want to accept it. Plenty of us saw the arrow and it was clearly out. Gotta give lots of respect for that. Call was not over turned though.
DB


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I usually can call an arrow walking to the target.. No need to get down on the ground and stare at it..I won't mention his name but I shot with a consistent winner in the K50 and he calls the arrows awesome, no guessing it is either in or out I like being grouped with him and him calling arrows no worries!! Almost don't count no integrity with some shooters!


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## Kaptain (Jun 2, 2011)

I read the rule as the arrow must be touching the line, in Paris this year I called arrows out but then over ruled by the group because the arrow was "pulling the line". When the arrow is a 1/8" off the line but made the line twitch it is out, end of story to me.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

Judges would bring consistency and probably help the flow of shooters, when did they have judges calling IBO shoots DB?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Alpha Burnt said:


> Judges would bring consistency and probably help the flow of shooters, when did they have judges calling IBO shoots DB?


Never said IBO. Have been to shoots that all had score keepers. Often the score keepers didnt have a qlue and were not archers calling the scores.
DB


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## varmintvaporize (Feb 9, 2010)

Lets start scoring the arrows on the worst edge, then how many guy are going to call this BS "Pulled the Line" crap.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kaptain said:


> I read the rule as the arrow must be touching the line, in Paris this year I called arrows out but then over ruled by the group because the arrow was "pulling the line". When the arrow is a 1/8" off the line but made the line twitch it is out, end of story to me.


Agreed. Im all about pulling the line but it better pull until it touches. Just pulling it towards the shaft isn't good enough.





typed slowly and with many errors on this touchscreen.......


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I agree that the arrow must touch the line I also think that if you are trying to get down on your knees and look at the arrow in 15 different directions then give the score to the shooter. If you can't look at it and say without a doubt that it is out I think the points should go to the shooter.


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## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

Kaptain said:


> I read the rule as the arrow must be touching the line, in Paris this year I called arrows out but then over ruled by the group because the arrow was "pulling the line". When the arrow is a 1/8" off the line but made the line twitch it is out, end of story to me.


Exactly.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

maybe need to bring in a NAA/FITA rule to to solve the problem.....must break the line


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## gabuckslammer (Apr 9, 2010)

To solve the whole 'pulling' controversy, all IBO or ASA has to do is remove the word "touching" and replace it with "dissecting". Simple!


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

I agree with the rule that it must touch the line and this is the way it should be scored. My biggest issue is more that when I shoot in a group of 3 friends and they let that effect their intergrity. I also had an issue with the group that I shot with in Paris this year. The first shot made by a good shooter was clearly in the IBO 11. I called it a 10 and the argument was on. He and one of his 3 friends in that group were the score keepers, myself and the only other person that was not their friend were doing the scoring and pulling. They were arguing that he was in the connector and accually drew a line with a pen into the 11 ring and said that it is an invisable line that is scored as the connector. At that point, the 3 friends overruled the 2 scorers and he was given a 12. I made the statement that I did not agree but because the majority ruled it a 12, ok. I did however state that I would expect that all arrows be scored the same for the rest of the competition. Needless to say, I had one arrow that pulled the 14 line into my arrow and was clearly touching the line. The same shooter that said his arrow that was a 12, now said that mine had "meat" showing and argued to the point that his 2 buddies changed thier first call of it being in, to out. This is my only gripe about the system that we have in place now. When you have a group of "buddies" paired with a couple people that try to play by the rules, this kind of crap happens. They were very nice and fun to shoot with right up until the first shot of the second day when I tried to play by the rules. Then it way a tense group that seemed to do their best to show me that they made the rules.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

simple...score inside-out. whew! watch the scores take a dump, eh ?


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

tagmaster10 said:


> I agree with the rule that it must touch the line and this is the way it should be scored. My biggest issue is more that when I shoot in a group of 3 friends and they let that effect their intergrity. I also had an issue with the group that I shot with in Paris this year. The first shot made by a good shooter was clearly in the IBO 11. I called it a 10 and the argument was on. He and one of his 3 friends in that group were the score keepers, myself and the only other person that was not their friend were doing the scoring and pulling. They were arguing that he was in the connector and accually drew a line with a pen into the 11 ring and said that it is an invisable line that is scored as the connector. At that point, the 3 friends overruled the 2 scorers and he was given a 12. I made the statement that I did not agree but because the majority ruled it a 12, ok. I did however state that I would expect that all arrows be scored the same for the rest of the competition. Needless to say, I had one arrow that pulled the 14 line into my arrow and was clearly touching the line. The same shooter that said his arrow that was a 12, now said that mine had "meat" showing and argued to the point that his 2 buddies changed thier first call of it being in, to out. This is my only gripe about the system that we have in place now. When you have a group of "buddies" paired with a couple people that try to play by the rules, this kind of crap happens. They were very nice and fun to shoot with right up until the first shot of the second day when I tried to play by the rules. Then it way a tense group that seemed to do their best to show me that they made the rules.


The rule states that the 2 "scorers" detemine the call. The "scorekeepers" are only to write down what the "scorers" say unless the "scorers" cannot come to a decision - then and only then do the "scorekeepers" come into play. The "scorekeepers" then alternate breaking the tie.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

I forgot to state that this is an ASA rule. I am not sure of other orgs rules


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Pulling the line(in my opinion as I was taught) is when the arrow pulls the line into the hole the arrow made and TOUCHES the shaft, plain and simple no touch, lower score.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

libertyfirst said:


> I love 3-d archery and shoot as often as my business allows me to do so. I have always considered myself a conservative scorer when looking at the targets to write down the proper circle hit. Recently I had the opportunity to shoot with a excellent shooter and a two time IBO world champion. The man, aside from being a superb shot, is a fine gentleman and a pleasure to travel and shoot with. One of the shooters in our group had an arrow that was, at least in my mind, clearly out of the 11 ring. It did not touch the outside of the moulded line in the center of the target. I called it out but the champion said that in his opinion it was an 11. He explained that the shooters on the IBO circuit will give the higher score if the arrow pulls the outside of the circle where the material is depressed from the mould. The arrow, to me, doesn't actually touch the visible scoring line but the score is given nontheless I asked if this practice is widely accepted by all the top shooters and his response was a solid yes.
> 
> Do any of you have any experience with this situation?


Classic statement! ...........and total BS! There seems to be quite a bit of "close enough" and "I'll call then like that all day". You are correct in that the arrow MUST touch the line. It can pull the line over but it still must touch. This "champion" basically told you that many on the "circuit" pick up bogus points by basically cheating. Rest assured he doesn't feel it's cheating because "everyone is doing it". You can only imagine what it's like when buddies are shooting together at a national tournament and one or more of them are in contention to place. 

I understand I will get flamed for the following.............. From my experience arrow calling is MUCH worse at IBO tournaments than ASA tournaments. At every national IBO shoot that I've been to I have had arrow callers, to put it nicely, attempt to "fatten" up the line by quite a bit. I think it's merely how things have evolved and not a direct reflection on the integrity of an individual. For example, if you had not brought this up on AT you would be under the impression that "close" is good enough in the IBO. Before anyone gets too bent out of shape I'm sure there are those calling "fat lines" in the ASA but it seems to not be a general practice. I've seen seriously bogus X calls in indoor spot tournaments as well but I believe it is not as prevalent because many people can see the arrow location besides just those on that bale and if your are competing for a good finish people ARE watching. But then again a couple of guys colluded at the 2012 NFAA Indoor Nationals to post a bogus score AND continued to lie about it later even though many folks saw the incident. They got away with it without even a slap on the hand. NEVER underestimated peoples ability to lie about even the most trivial of things.............................

Next time you shoot with him tell him you found out he's full of BS!


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

Kstigall is that what your sig line is referring to?


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

With the money IBO is bringing in compared to what they are paying out, they sure could afford a judge at every target and it would make things very interesting.


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## splitbeam145 (Jun 25, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> Never seen anyone not accept a call from all three other archers in the group.
> 
> Now some of you are saying if the grouped called your arrow in and you dissagree your not accepting the score from the group?
> 
> ...


But on the next target Levi gave his points back "unintentionally" with a solid 8 that was nowhere near the 10-12-14. That showed me what a good sportsman he is and trys to play the game fair.


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## knox_nate (Dec 27, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> I did see Levi Morgan get a call in a shootdown once and argue it wasnt in and did not want to accept it. Plenty of us saw the arrow and it was clearly out. Gotta give lots of respect for that. Call was not over turned though.
> DB


Shooy down in Kentucky he went for a 14 and after the **** he slammed his stool and was visible upset with his shot. Everyone around me with binos were calling it out and Levi thought it was out. Judge called it in though. Surprised a lot of people for sure.


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## nate121080 (Sep 3, 2006)

Yep DB I have called myself out and so have others in my group I shoot with. There's usually 3 of us and sometimes the lines are shot up and it makes it hard to call. If were all looking at it and cant decide I will take the lesser score and so will they. We shot one course that the targets were shot up so bad u couldnt even see the rings. There was obvious holes where the 12 shld have been. In that case we called it from the stake. If you hit the shot out spot its a 12. I haven't been back to that course since then either


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I very rarely run into a guy that likes to call the pulled line that is being pulled but the arrow isn't touching the pulled part and I have found that if you point out that there is foam inbetween the pulled part of the line and his arrow he will be ok with the call and go on without complaining. That kind of guy is going to try to find groups when he can to take advantage of that kind of calling and when he can't he doesn't throw a fit. Me personally this summer at the asa shoots I have found a way of thinking that I hadn't thought of before and it is "If you can't call it out, it is in". The first time I heard it I didn't know what to think but by the end of the day the group had to use it a few times on shots where we had looked at it for at least 30 seconds to a minute by all members of the group and it is so stinking close to the line you can't see any foam inbetween the arrow and the line weather it is being pulled or not. This only happens maybe 5 times a weekend in a group of 5 or 6 guys but it does happen and after going to all asa shoots this summer except for florida I feel really good about all of the groups I have shot with, I have ran into a couple of guys who I feel like would have taken advantage of the group but that is the beauty of asa that we are random groups of shooters that for the most part don't know each other and we all want to win.


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## G Skinner (Jan 23, 2012)

Here is another quick senerio , We have all seen those Rienhart Targets with racoons standing on a log or groundhog on or next too a rock pile . If you shoot off target and hit the rocks or logs (which are still apart of the target ) what do you count 5 or 0 ?
Glen


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

Supposed to be a -0-


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## blinginpse (Jun 21, 2011)

nate121080 said:


> Yep DB I have called myself out and so have others in my group I shoot with. There's usually 3 of us and sometimes the lines are shot up and it makes it hard to call. If were all looking at it and cant decide I will take the lesser score and so will they. We shot one course that the targets were shot up so bad u couldnt even see the rings. There was obvious holes where the 12 shld have been. In that case we called it from the stake. If you hit the shot out spot its a 12. I haven't been back to that course since then either


THIS KID^^^^^^ can flat shoot aint no doubt in my mind.


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## nate121080 (Sep 3, 2006)

^^^THIS KID beats me every time though :wink:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Never seen anyone not accept a call from all three other archers in the group.
> 
> Now some of you are saying if the grouped called your arrow in and you dissagree your not accepting the score from the group?
> 
> ...


Not 3 out of 4 but it could have been! The guy at IBO World's in 2011 absolutely refused to give himself a 10 so I stepped up and looked at it and supported him as it really wasn't all that close. The two arrow callers almost went ballistic! They were red faced and mumbled loudly as they walked away. I have to give kudos to the syrup sucker for standing tall and strong. He made it REAL easy for me to do the right thing. It was at that moment that I decided enough is enough and that if he can stand his ground then by gos I can as well! :wink: I can't let a syrup sucker show me up........................

That same afternoon I had a friend explain to me in shame how he went along with a call on his arrow on one of the first 3 targets. He said he wrote the score down and didn't completely realize how far out his arrow was until the arrows were being pulled. He said it was a train wreck the rest of the course as the free points piled up for everyone and he was "humiliated" and felt "punked". Two of the guys in his group were very tight if not related and the third knew the two well. At least one of the two were and maybe still is a well known, sponsored and "accomplished" AHC shooters! 

It's high time we man up! If a syrup sucker can do it then by god at the least we should be able to do the same!!!!!!


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

This whole discussion is one of the major flaws in archery. Similar to golf in that you must call your own fouls. We as archers need to one know the rules of the org you are shooting. I think the orginaztions could help this by having handheld rule books for sale at all events. This way you could buy them if you didn't know the rules by heart. And when I say know the way the rules read not just know of the rule. Also every archer needs to make sure their groups are obeying ALL the rules ALL the time, no matter if you have a chance to win or not. Heck who was the golfer a few years back at one of the majors that was on that hitting off the beach, barely touched the twig next to the ball and called the foul on himself that basically took him out of his chance of winning a major. If he wouldn't have called it on himself no one would have known, but he hat the intigrity to call the foul. We need even more of that attitude in archery. It should be easy with random groups and such at the big events but I have still seen it there the "I'll give you this one, you give me the next one" attitude. I have always found arrow calls fairly easy, call it how you see it, if you have to spend so much time on it and can come to a clear decision tie goes to the archer, but this 1/8" from the line that the arrow pulled the line stuff come on, the arrow is touching as it sits in the target or it isn't touching the line, period. Same group that are out there cheating are the same ones complaining there is no money in this sport. The same way steriods discredit a baseball player, cheating on a 3D course discredits us all and sponsers and TV crews will not follow something that is pencil pushed.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

WhitBri said:


> TV crews will not follow something that is pencil pushed.


You had me up until there. :shade:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

WhitBri said:


> This whole discussion is one of the major flaws in archery. Similar to golf in that you must call your own fouls. We as archers need to one know the rules of the org you are shooting. I think the orginaztions could help this by having handheld rule books for sale at all events. This way you could buy them if you didn't know the rules by heart. And when I say know the way the rules read not just know of the rule. Also every archer needs to make sure their groups are obeying ALL the rules ALL the time, no matter if you have a chance to win or not. Heck who was the golfer a few years back at one of the majors that was on that hitting off the beach, barely touched the twig next to the ball and called the foul on himself that basically took him out of his chance of winning a major. If he wouldn't have called it on himself no one would have known, but he hat the intigrity to call the foul. We need even more of that attitude in archery. It should be easy with random groups and such at the big events but I have still seen it there the "I'll give you this one, you give me the next one" attitude. I have always found arrow calls fairly easy, call it how you see it, if you have to spend so much time on it and can come to a clear decision tie goes to the archer, but this 1/8" from the line that the arrow pulled the line stuff come on, the arrow is touching as it sits in the target or it isn't touching the line, period. Same group that are out there cheating are the same ones complaining there is no money in this sport. The same way steriods discredit a baseball player, cheating on a 3D course discredits us all and sponsers and TV crews will not follow something that is pencil pushed.


It isn't that folks don't know the rule that the arrow MUST touch the line. I think most folks just went along with the "experienced tournament" or "champion" archer as novices. Consequently they became accustomed to the scoring line having a fat "zone" as the standard for calling arrows. "Close enough" seems to be part of the culture of the IBO more than the ASA. That is *NOT *to say everyone in the IBO plays loose or that everyone plays it straight in the ASA!! I think the vast majority of archers would rather put their best effort into making the correct calls rather than going along with bogus "scores". But the "experienced" guys set the tone......... 

I suspect because the ASA has an official VERY accessible to every target on every course, groups are very close by and groups are NOT self determined the "culture" of scoring arrows more closely follows the written rule. Where as in the IBO course officials are frequently inaccessible and groups are essentially self determined. Frequently groups are separated form spectators and other groups so bullies can better practice their craft without witnesses. Sunshine promotes honesty..................


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

tony I guess that comment was a real complete thought. My thought is if within the archery community all this talk about pencil pushing, cheating, etc from an outsiders perspective that know nothing about archery would seem that it isn't a very legitimate sport. Could also lump all the bickering and bad mouthing IBO from ASA members and vis versa in the same catagory. No one wants to be apart of something negative. Its obvious that hunting shows sell, and archery hunting shows sell even better. But until we get that same group the hunting archers that "pay the bills" to be interested in the target archery to the point they would watch it on TV and buy equipment, etc that the pros shoot because of it we won't see it there. From what I hear from the general hunting community and this starts at a local level that the winners just pencil push their way to the top, you and I know that to be incorrect but that's what they believe, atleast at the local levels a lot of the time, so they lable all the 3D shooters in that light. Then we go as a group and talk about how bad it is, but not do anything about it. Now this isn't the only thing keep archery off the mainstage, but I think many on here could write about that at length


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

nate121080 said:


> Yep DB I have called myself out and so have others in my group I shoot with. There's usually 3 of us and sometimes the lines are shot up and it makes it hard to call. If were all looking at it and cant decide I will take the lesser score and so will they. We shot one course that the targets were shot up so bad u couldnt even see the rings. There was obvious holes where the 12 shld have been. In that case we called it from the stake. If you hit the shot out spot its a 12. I haven't been back to that course since then either


Shot more than my share of tournaments and seen plenty of my arrows called in by three guys and even in NFAA by a judge when I thought it was clearly out. I will never call my own arrows. Just something I think everyone should do. You can look at it and have an opionion that if you dissagree you should keep to yourself. Sometimes calls go your way and some times they dont.
DB


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Never seen anyone not accept a call from all three other archers in the group.
> 
> Now some of you are saying if the grouped called your arrow in and you dissagree your not accepting the score from the group?
> 
> ...


That is integrity, and i duly respect that.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

WhitBri said:


> This whole discussion is one of the major flaws in archery. Similar to golf in that you must call your own fouls. We as archers need to one know the rules of the org you are shooting. I think the orginaztions could help this by having handheld rule books for sale at all events. This way you could buy them if you didn't know the rules by heart. And when I say know the way the rules read not just know of the rule. Also every archer needs to make sure their groups are obeying ALL the rules ALL the time, no matter if you have a chance to win or not. Heck who was the golfer a few years back at one of the majors that was on that hitting off the beach, barely touched the twig next to the ball and called the foul on himself that basically took him out of his chance of winning a major. If he wouldn't have called it on himself no one would have known, but he hat the intigrity to call the foul. We need even more of that attitude in archery. It should be easy with random groups and such at the big events but I have still seen it there the "I'll give you this one, you give me the next one" attitude. I have always found arrow calls fairly easy, call it how you see it, if you have to spend so much time on it and can come to a clear decision tie goes to the archer, but this 1/8" from the line that the arrow pulled the line stuff come on, the arrow is touching as it sits in the target or it isn't touching the line, period. Same group that are out there cheating are the same ones complaining there is no money in this sport. The same way steriods discredit a baseball player, cheating on a 3D course discredits us all and sponsers and TV crews will not follow something that is pencil pushed.


ASA rules are available at every shoot at the ASA trailer, at no cost.


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## 5263LL (May 18, 2012)

Ya well the pencil wins the shoots more the the shooter..


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

reylamb said:


> ASA rules are available at every shoot at the ASA trailer, at no cost.


nut i have witnessed a guy that was told by many shooters that what he was doing was not legal even though they told him what the rules said.


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