# ASA - Senior Known?



## 4him (Jan 14, 2011)

I wish that class was offered.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Too many classes......shoot just make those known shooters....just shoot a flight schedule.....


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## Cheetah (Jan 20, 2004)

I'd be in. I like unknown but don't have the time to put into yardage skills and shooting like I would like. I also hunt with my rangefinder and check landmarks from the stand, that is except for when I forget to pack it, I guess that's another senior topic.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

RE Smith is cussing you right now for even thinking it......


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Too many classes......shoot just make those known shooters....just shoot a flight schedule.....


That's a thought............just flight EVERY class. Especially all the "opens". Do we really _need_ A,B,C, Semi and Pro? One big flighted Open class....... It has worked real well for the NFAA. It would be more "fair" because there would be more "winners". the most skilled competitors would still "win" while everyone else has an equal chance to "win". It's not "fair" that the less talented archers never get to medal I mean to "win". Better yet let's just skip the competition altogether and just draw names for the "winnings". The entry fee could sky rocket since no one would have to travel or even have to own bows. You just "enter" once a month on-line for say $400, which would save us all a lot of money, and then Mike T. would draw the winners names. Change the name of the ASA to ObamaArchery......

I think the ASA should just do a way with ALL known distance class 3D! :evil: I'm just sure no one would could start an "all known distance" 3D tournament schedule successfully.

Seriously, as popular as Known distance 3D has become when the old stick in the muds start dieing off and the current Known distance guys age a bit there WILL be a Senior Known class!! Right now I can't imagine the old guys would tolerate there being another option for archers. But Senior Known IS coming, it's only a matter of time. I can see where a person could argue that Known distance 3D makes more sense for us old guys. I know it would be easier for me to get some of my friends into shooting national 3D tournaments if they didn't have to also learn "yardage guessing" at the same time.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

reylamb said:


> RE Smith is cussing you right now for even thinking it......


:becky:


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kent.....in all seriousness. ....there should be maybe to sides to the classes.....do away with the split thing....do either k own.....or unknow...its your choice.......pro/semi/open a/open b. And k40....k 45...k50
This can be easier to setting those ranges as well... a an b shoot the same....semi an pro the same....the known .ca. eleven tripled staked as they are know.......this could also lead into having a better selection for targets.....like a shoot with all american game.....a range with all African/European game (damn chamios)...


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

bhtr3d said:


> Too many classes......shoot just make those known shooters....just shoot a flight schedule.....


I do agree way to many classes if a class can't average a certain number for the year it should removed. Archers don't understand less classes more in the remaining classes means more payout 

50 archers = 10 place payout 
100 = 20 place payout
150 = 30 place payout
200 = 40 place payout 

I would like to see a Known senior but some other classes need to go to make room for classes with more shooters


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> kent.....in all seriousness. ....there should be maybe to sides to the classes.....do away with the split thing....do either k own.....or unknow...its your choice.......pro/semi/open a/open b. And k40....k 45...k50
> this can be easier to setting those ranges as well... A an b shoot the same....semi an pro the same....the known .ca. Eleven tripled staked as they are know.......this could also lead into having a better selection for targets.....like a shoot with all american game.....a range with all african/european game* (damn chamios).*..


agreed!!!!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

cenochs said:


> I do agree way to many classes if a class can't average a certain number for the year it should removed. Archers don't understand less classes more in the remaining classes means more payout
> 
> 50 archers = 10 place payout
> 100 = 20 place payout
> ...


I agree to a certain extent. The highest level classes aren't ever going to be really large relative to the lower classes and they shouldn't be. In my mind paying 40 places or even 30 is ridiculous. It should probably be capped at 20 if not 15. But flighting is definitely a no-no in my book!

I am most likely going to shoot K50 in London, Ky. But I would have been perfectly content shooting K45 again this year. I did not do anything special in K45 but I "won out" any way. If I had the time, money and appropriate "life style" I'd be shooting Senior Open or possibly even Senior Pro!........


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Don't think we need it. You can shoot K40, K45, or K50 with the young guns.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Don't think we need it. You can shoot K40, K45, or K50 with the young guns.


..........and that is what I do. I will most likely shoot K50 in Kentucky since I can't shoot K45. But so many of the young fellers have their feelings hurt after getting beat down but an old short fat guy. I hate to see the young darlings with swollen eyes, trembling lips and snotty noses. 

Seriously, there will be a Senior Known class sooner or later. I dare say there are a lot more 55'ish folks with money and free time to burn than 35-40 year olds. How I don't see how it can be ignored forever. where do you think all the current K45'ers and K50'ers will go as they age? 

What about all the empty nesters that have never really shot target archery? Right now they head to the tennis courts, golf courses and sporting clays ranges. Why not 3D archery?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I think it will happen too eventually. Probably next year.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

Not for me, I need my bad judging to offset my bad shooting, I get much luckier this way.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

Dont let Nick fool you ,he can judge and shoot lights out .


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

You can have your known yardage class when i'm dead and gone, come to think about it why not come to the asa's and just shoot the sims all week end that way you don't even have to enter the regular tournament! Except you would probably run into someone as lucky as me and i shoot 6 twelves in 10 targets and heck you still can't win soooooooooooooooooooooooooo have fun learning to judge, shoot the sims, shoot the team shoot, shoot unknown 3d every week end from december 1st to august 1st practice every day to find 30 yards it's the key ...............lol mark


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

I think there are more than enough shooters out there that would shoot a senior known class to support having the class.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

SNAPTHIS said:


> You can have your known yardage class when i'm dead and gone, come to think about it why not come to the asa's and just shoot the sims all week end that way you don't even have to enter the regular tournament! Except you would probably run into someone as lucky as me and i shoot 6 twelves in 10 targets and heck you still can't win soooooooooooooooooooooooooo have fun learning to judge, shoot the sims, shoot the team shoot, shoot unknown 3d every week end from december 1st to august 1st practice every day to find 30 yards it's the key ...............lol mark


Obviously, you are neither dead nor gone and Known distance 3D is popular and on the rise. Why do you care if there are known distance classes? 

By the way, "lucky" does not cut it in either K50 or even K45 for that matter at national shoots! Luck doesn't hurt but I NEVER count on it going my way. A lot of decent unmarked 3d archers would learn a lot about their game if they shot a few Known distance rounds against decent competition. I strongly believe many if not most non-professional unmarked 3D'ers would score a LOT lower than they think! Primarily because they don't shoot as well as they think and they don't know _their_ game as well as they think. Whether they admit it or not anyone that shoots a unknown range better than a known range has serious flaws in their game. 

I do shoot ASA tournaments and I can hold my own in unmarked 3D. I will never be a competitive Pro or Semi-Pro but otherwise when I work at it I'm usually competitive. I've shot plenty of unmarked 3D and still do so at local shoots. I'm thinking I'll shoot Senior Open next year. 

Sure wish the 14 was in play. Makes things a bit mote "exciting" when it has to be considered.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Texas, crossbow, 5 and women's known 45, 7.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

bhtr3d said:


> Kent.....in all seriousness. ....there should be maybe to sides to the classes.....do away with the split thing....do either k own.....or unknow...its your choice.......pro/semi/open a/open b. And k40....k 45...k50
> This can be easier to setting those ranges as well... a an b shoot the same....semi an pro the same....the known .ca. eleven tripled staked as they are know.......this could also lead into having a better selection for targets.....like a shoot with all american game.....a range with all African/European game (damn chamios)...


That is exactly what needs to happen. Too many known classes to have the half-and-half open classes, too.


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

Kent, the reason is there is already 5 men's senior classes and all it would do is steal people from the existing classes. The Sims is a good alternative if you want to shoot known distance, I did this weekend in Texas and won the Super Senior class but I still don't want the tournament to be known. ASA tried half and half a few years ago and almost everyone voted against it when we had the chance. Mark


Kstigall said:


> Obviously, you are neither dead nor gone and Known distance 3D is popular and on the rise. Why do you care if there are known distance classes?
> 
> By the way, "lucky" does not cut it in either K50 or even K45 for that matter at national shoots! Luck doesn't hurt but I NEVER count on it going my way. A lot of decent unmarked 3d archers would learn a lot about their game if they shot a few Known distance rounds against decent competition. I strongly believe many if not most non-professional unmarked 3D'ers would score a LOT lower than they think! Primarily because they don't shoot as well as they think and they don't know _their_ game as well as they think. Whether they admit it or not anyone that shoots a unknown range better than a known range has serious flaws in their game.
> 
> ...


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

SNAPTHIS said:


> Kent, the reason is there is already 5 men's senior classes and all it would do is steal people from the existing classes. The Sims is a good alternative if you want to shoot known distance, I did this weekend in Texas and won the Super Senior class but I still don't want the tournament to be known. ASA tried half and half a few years ago and almost everyone voted against it when we had the chance. Mark


Yes, there is....they keep having to make classes for RE....otherwise there would be 3 classes, although I though SR hunter was a good idea.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

about the number of classes, you can only put so many shooters on 2 twenty target courses. so lets do away with all the classes and figure out how to shoot 450 open shooters on two courses then we could do away with the shotgun start and tee time it like the IBO. sounds good.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I suspect your Pop put you up to promoting this senior known distance idea. :happy:

Tell him to get himself over to London and shoot with us geezers.


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

jimb said:


> about the number of classes, you can only put so many shooters on 2 twenty target courses. so lets do away with all the classes and figure out how to shoot 450 open shooters on two courses then we could do away with the shotgun start and tee time it like the IBO. sounds good.


Why would you even think like that not even funny


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Voted No over in the ASA forums. Really nothing against Senior Known other than I never shoot Known. Still, another class. Just don't the ASA get like the NFAA, 74 or 75 classes....


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

SNAPTHIS said:


> Kent, the reason is there is already 5 men's senior classes and all it would do is steal people from the existing classes. The Sims is a good alternative if you want to shoot known distance, I did this weekend in Texas and won the Super Senior class but I still don't want the tournament to be known. ASA tried half and half a few years ago and almost everyone voted against it when we had the chance. Mark


So what if a few Seniors changed to a Known class? Changing classes is NOT a loss for the ASA. I understand you don't want Known distance 3D. Why should you support Known distance 3D when you are an experienced and successful yardage guesser? The only reason would be to make 3D archery more appealing to potentially "new" competition participants. Of course this would be of little to no benefit to current yardage guessing class participants. 



SonnyThomas said:


> Voted No over in the ASA forums. Really nothing against Senior Known other than I never shoot Known. Still, another class. Just don't the ASA get like the NFAA, 74 or 75 classes....


I understand the _current _reasoning. The current reason there isn't a Senior Known class is that us old guys are sticks in the mud and fight change. There is zero reason for a "Senior 3D'er" that is good with yardage guessing supporting the growth of Known distance 3D UNLESS that person is more concerned about the future of archery than he is about his _personal _archery interests. We've all spent decades shooting unknown distance 3D. But the fact is Known distance 3D has been proven to draw participants. It IS a future growth area. We can stomp and pout that 3D is all about yardage guessing, that's the way it's always been and so that is how it should stay. But that does not change the fact that the Known classes are currently large and those folks will be looking to continue shooting 3D archery as they age. 

From a business stand point it's foolish to alienate or ignore customers that have money and time to spend on a product. Yardage guessing makes it harder to attract these potential new customers that have a good amount of disposable money. The Known classes are very appealing to folks that don't have experience with yardage guessing such as NEW archers/3D'ers. I dare say the folks in their fifties (empty nesters) have a good bit more disposable income than younger folks with families AND less income. 

Seriously, think about folks over 50. They are ripe for drawing into archery and have the resources to expend.

Some of these arguments to ignore the popularity of Known distance 3D reminds me of the old farts in the NFAA.....



carlosii said:


> I suspect your Pop put you up to promoting this senior known distance idea. :happy:
> 
> Tell him to get himself over to London and shoot with us geezers.


No, he's not a "known distance" guy. He has no idea I stirred up this hornets nest.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

shootstraight said:


> Not for me, I need my bad judging to offset my bad shooting, I get much luckier this way.


Says the guy who shot 6 up on 20 targets WITH A MISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

If you did have folks jumping to a known class from an unknown class you would have to recruit a significant number of new shooters to both classes in order to maintain the current payout levels.

Something for some of those top tier shooters to think about. It might also have a negative impact on the contingencies paid out to those classes.


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## hophunt (Aug 21, 2007)

Ken,

I do not disagree with you, but I think the lack of participation in K50 also lends credence to the arguement against another known class. Personally, I think it has to do with the price of entry. I see the same thing at "local" tournaments and hear the comments from archers that they would shoot more if they could shoot known distance, but their local clubs forbid any type of known distance on their ranges. K45 continues to grow and yes there is a market demand for known distance just not real sure why everyone hates it so bad.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> I understand the _current _reasoning. The current reason there isn't a Senior Known class is that us old guys are sticks in the mud and fight change. *There is zero reason for a "Senior 3D'er" that is good with yardage guessing supporting the growth of Known distance 3D UNLESS that person is more concerned about the future of archery than he is about his personal archery interests.*


*

Kent, read my reply in the ASA forums. In short, what keeps archery from really growing, there are only so many people with the resources to shoot the national circuit. Health and Growth of archery... The biggest part of this health and growth only comes up when it's the national level being rattled off about. Archery is doing well. I mean, what part of the ASA ProAms and Classic make up 6,500 listings under 3DShoots.com? Yep, some clubs struggle for a attendance and others have all they want and more... I don't know how 15 or 16 3D clubs exist in a one hour's drive of my house, but sure some one is supporting this many clubs..... 

I don't know the average lay out of cash and loss of time from work, but it sure can't be cheap. I've spoke with a few and setting aside $5000 for the ASA year was noted.... My home state, Illinois. I got off cheap splitting all and spent maybe $250 or so and this just for Saturday and Sunday at Metro. If I had been working, figure $25 per hour loss of income. Dang! Retired and I make more than some make working. And though quite capable of attending national events I found the nationals weren't for me and suspect others feel the same way or would feel the same way...*


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

I for one am totally against known classes good or bad guessing yardage is all part of the game. I think a lot of guys shoot known to make them feel better about their shooting. I shoot to have fun and if I score well that's just a bonus. Personally I say get rid of all known classes. My first ASA I shot open B didn't read the classes well I didn't realize it was half known half unknown and the known half was kinda boring to me. jMO


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

bsharkey said:


> I for one am totally against known classes good or bad guessing yardage is all part of the game. I think a lot of guys shoot known to make them feel better about their shooting. I shoot to have fun and if I score well that's just a bonus. Personally I say get rid of all known classes. My first ASA I shot open B didn't read the classes well I didn't realize it was half known half unknown and the known half was kinda boring to me. jMO


So, then, you obviously "Cleaned" the known half shooting all "14's", and won the Open B in a landslide, huh? Must have; otherwise you wouldn't be "bored."
Seriously, with the K45 the fastest growing class, and the other fact being they don't compete directly against those shooting "unknown" where is the skin off your nose about it, or the burr under your saddle from it? 

The other part of "known" is there isn't the excuse, when you shoot 6" to the left or right of, "I sure mis-judged the yardage on that sucker." ROFLMAO.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

field14 said:


> So, then, you obviously "Cleaned" the known half shooting all "14's", and won the Open B in a landslide, huh? Must have; otherwise you wouldn't be "bored."
> Seriously, with the K45 the fastest growing class, and the other fact being they don't compete directly against those shooting "unknown" where is the skin off your nose about it, or the burr under your saddle from it?
> 
> The other part of "known" is there isn't the excuse, when you shoot 6" to the left or right of, "I sure mis-judged the yardage on that sucker." ROFLMAO.


Your funny as hell and your skill to read and comprehend suck I never even came close to saying any of that all I said was it was boring TO ME. Jesus Christ have a grown up read and explain it to you if you don't understand I also said it was my opinion


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I agree with you bsharkey, half the fun is guessing the yardage, and so what if I get a 5 because they fooled me. It is one of the hardest elements in the game, going for a low 12 and not "knowing" the yardage for sure. Got a 5 just this weekend for going for a low 12 and being off 3 yards. Oh well. Still got 8 of them suckas, so I was happy.

With that said, not everyone has the same opinions, and our circuit implemented the K50 class at our ranges and a K40 for the women too. The K50 is the biggest class we have now in the money classes, second only to the hunter trophy class. It has almost killed the Open Money class.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I think all the "guessing yardage" guys that are against the "Known" classes should start up their own association! They can go to the TYGA...( target yardage guessing association) and we can "shoot" the ASA...Archery "Shooters" Association!!! You all can just walk around and just look at targets since shooting your bow is so boring!!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mark1976 said:


> I think all the "guessing yardage" guys that are against the "Known" classes should start up their own association! They can go to the TYGA...( target yardage guessing association) and we can "shoot" the ASA...Archery "Shooters" Association!!! You all can just walk around and just look at targets since shooting your bow is so boring!!!


Attitude and rattling off....

ASA all known yardage; 
Men’s Known 50, Men’s Known 45, Women’s Known 45, Women’s Known 40, Bow Novice, Open C, Women's Hunter, High School Pins, Middle School Pins, Elementary School Pins, Junior Eagle Open.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

hophunt said:


> Ken,
> 
> I do not disagree with you, but I think the lack of participation in K50 also lends credence to the arguement against another known class. Personally, I think it has to do with the price of entry. I see the same thing at "local" tournaments and hear the comments from archers that they would shoot more if they could shoot known distance, but their local clubs forbid any type of known distance on their ranges. K45 continues to grow and yes there is a market demand for known distance just not real sure why everyone hates it so bad.


Have you looked at the K50 numbers this year? The K50 is approaching the same number of shooters that the Men's Open Pro are having.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

field14 said:


> So, then, you obviously "Cleaned" the known half shooting all "14's",.


Tom, we gotta get you out to more ASA shoots...the 14 hasn't been in play for a couple years now. (Dang it...used to luck into one once in awhile)


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Well, when guys make comments about ASA doing away with all known classes, and others making comments about how boring it is for them to shoot known yardage...the have an attitude and are just rattling off...so I guess with that being said, you know where you can stick it!!! Your opinion truly means absolutely nothing to me! You have an attitude because you know that they future of ASA and most Archery Associations is in the Known classes...and for anyone to make comments about guys shooting known to make them feel better about their bow shooting abilities...I invite them to come shoot with us, but highly doubt they will! They will loose their best excuse for making a bad shot!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

n2bows said:


> Have you looked at the K50 numbers this year? The K50 is approaching the same number of shooters that the Men's Open Pro are having.


??? What's your point? Pro numbers have been down for some years now. 

All keep noting Senior.... Senior is age 50 thru 59, correct? And what, 40 or 45 yards? Those who want Senior Known and haven't tried K45, you don't have a complaint. Enough try and can't compete, fine. You then have proof that a Senior Known may be needed....

I listed the Known above, but then look at the number of classes that are 50/50 and there isn't a class that will fit? Damn! Aint' nothing perfect, but you can at least try.....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I think senior known is a good idea and I think it will come to fruition.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

Mark1976 said:


> Well, when guys make comments about ASA doing away with all known classes, and others making comments about how boring it is for them to shoot known yardage...the have an attitude and are just rattling off...so I guess with that being said, you know where you can stick it!!! Your opinion truly means absolutely nothing to me! You have an attitude because you know that they future of ASA and most Archery Associations is in the Known classes...and for anyone to make comments about guys shooting known to make them feel better about their bow shooting abilities...I invite them to come shoot with us, but highly doubt they will! They will loose their best excuse for making a bad shot!


i made both those comment and did not have an attitude about it,that was just my experience with it, just stated my opinion just as you are doing now stating your opinion.you are taking this way to hard chill out and calm down brother get you a cup of coffee and relax.you are right about on thing i will not shoot known because its not for me.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

carlosii said:


> If you did have folks jumping to a known class from an unknown class you would have to recruit a significant number of new shooters to both classes in order to maintain the current payout levels.
> 
> Something for some of those top tier shooters to think about. It might also have a negative impact on the contingencies paid out to those classes.


That is why in previous posts I have said _those archers that are currently successful_ have good reason to be against creating a Known class if they are solely concerned about their personal stake (prestige, winnings, status) in archery as opposed to the well being of archery in general. 

If you have one class with a 100 archers then 20 will receive pay back. If you have two classes with 50 in each you will still have a total of 20 archers receiving pay back. Of course the "winner" of the 100 member class pockets more than if the class has 60.

Example..... Senior Open decreases from say 100 archers to 60 and a new Senior Known class grows to 60 then the *ASA *, competition archery in general and the ENTIRE archery industry benefits from a 20% increase in customers in that demographic. That demographic has money and time to spend............ Just swing by any local golf course at 2:00 pm in the spring or fall and observe. 



hophunt said:


> Ken,
> 
> I do not disagree with you, but I think the lack of participation in K50 also lends credence to the arguement against another known class. Personally, I think it has to do with the price of entry. I see the same thing at "local" tournaments and hear the comments from archers that they would shoot more if they could shoot known distance, but their local clubs forbid any type of known distance on their ranges. K45 continues to grow and yes there is a market demand for known distance just not real sure why everyone hates it so bad.


There are a few reasons K50 is not as big as K45 and it will always be this way and should be...... It is a Semi-Pro class with a higher entry fee and highly skilled participants so it is NOT for everyone and isn't intended to be. The reason we don't have as many known distance classes at local clubs is that local clubs are run by those that have been involved and dedicated to traditional 3D. A lot of these folks are the ones AGAINST Known 3D. One club is so hard core they don't even want me on the course with a range finder even if I'm only shooting a practice round. This club is primarily a stick bow club and they somewhat resent compounds in general so a "known" class is really taboo. 



SonnyThomas said:


> Kent, read my reply in the ASA forums. In short, what keeps archery from really growing, there are only so many people with the resources to shoot the national circuit. Health and Growth of archery... The biggest part of this health and growth only comes up when it's the national level being rattled off about. Archery is doing well. I mean, what part of the ASA ProAms and Classic make up 6,500 listings under 3DShoots.com? Yep, some clubs struggle for a attendance and others have all they want and more... I don't know how 15 or 16 3D clubs exist in a one hour's drive of my house, but sure some one is supporting this many clubs.....
> 
> I don't know the average lay out of cash and loss of time from work, but it sure can't be cheap. I've spoke with a few and setting aside $5000 for the ASA year was noted.... My home state, Illinois. I got off cheap splitting all and spent maybe $250 or so and this just for Saturday and Sunday at Metro. If I had been working, figure $25 per hour loss of income. Dang! Retired and I make more than some make working. And though quite capable of attending national events I found the nationals weren't for me and suspect others feel the same way or would feel the same way...


Are you saying archery does not need more growth/participation? Are you saying ignoring a potential market (Senior's) of new archers that have more money and time than other age groups is reasonable from a business stand point? 

Forget about national tournaments. I know I frequently run into guys that are 45+ and are just now exploring archery or coming back to it. Last night a guy at a large sporting goods store said, "I got this off Craigslist for $40....shoulder shrug....both my kids are now in college and I need something to do". He is an immediate potential local archery club participant. 

In the same shop about 8 weeks ago I helped set up a guy that had not shot a bow since he was a kid. He traded in a pair of expensive .22's because he enjoyed what he saw at our recreational indoor spot league one night. He is VERY likely going to be an NFAA member next winter. I could go on with examples of middle aged men and women "trying" archery each winter.



bsharkey said:


> I for one am totally against known classes good or bad guessing yardage is all part of the game. I think a lot of guys shoot known to make them feel better about their shooting. I shoot to have fun and if I score well that's just a bonus. Personally I say get rid of all known classes. My first ASA I shot open B didn't read the classes well I didn't realize it was half known half unknown and the known half was kinda boring to me. jMO


It has been a big part of the game and for many current 3D'ers it still is and will always be. I occasionally shoot all unknown courses. 
I totally disagree with, "guys shoot known to make them feel better about their shooting". Just the opposite is true, many guys refuse to shoot known distance 3D because it shows them how poorly they shoot. Known distance 3D isn't for the faint of heart. 



sagecreek said:


> I agree with you bsharkey, half the fun is guessing the yardage, and so what if I get a 5 because they fooled me. It is one of the hardest elements in the game, going for a low 12 and not "knowing" the yardage for sure. Got a 5 just this weekend for going for a low 12 and being off 3 yards. Oh well. Still got 8 of them suckas, so I was happy.
> 
> With that said, not everyone has the same opinions, and our circuit implemented the K50 class at our ranges and a K40 for the women too. The K50 is the biggest class we have now in the money classes, second only to the hunter trophy class. It has almost killed the Open Money class.


It really hurts when you KNOW the yardage and still drop points. Most local club 3D'ers can't hit the 12 ring at 30 yards and beyond 50% of the time using a range finder.

I see Womens Known having a lot of potential. If I were to get my wife into archery starting out in a Known class might be the right thing to do. 



n2bows said:


> Have you looked at the K50 numbers this year? The K50 is approaching the same number of shooters that the Men's Open Pro are having.


Exactly. Being an "advanced" class with a higher entry fee and more highly skilled archers it should never be as big as K45. Maybe one day K50 will be like "Open A" and there will be a "Known Semi-Pro". My point is that the "higher" the class the less total participants you will and should have.

I do wish the 14 was in play. I know that K45 was a LOT more exciting for me with the 14 in play than it is without the 14! Having to consider the 14 creates a LOT more pressure than the 12 ring does.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> ??? What's your point? Pro numbers have been down for some years now.
> 
> All keep noting Senior.... Senior is age 50 thru 59, correct? And what, 40 or 45 yards? Those who want Senior Known and haven't tried K45, you don't have a complaint. Enough try and can't compete, fine. You then have proof that a Senior Known may be needed....
> 
> I listed the Known above, but then look at the number of classes that are 50/50 and there isn't a class that will fit? Damn! Aint' nothing perfect, but you can at least try.....


:wink: Senior is "50 and over". Nothing says a 60 year old can't shoot Senior. A Senior Known class should either be 45 yards or more likely 50 yards. Whichever, makes it easier for ASA to set course assignments.




tmorelli said:


> I think senior known is a good idea and I think it will come to fruition.


At this point it has to be pretty much guaranteed. It's only a matter of when. As much as the die hard old school 3D'ers moan it's foolish to ignore the trend.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

It has been a big part of the game and for many current 3D'ers it still is and will always be. I occasionally shoot all unknown courses. 
I totally disagree with, "guys shoot known to make them feel better about their shooting". Just the opposite is true, many guys refuse to shoot known distance 3D because it shows them how poorly they shoot. Known distance 3D isn't for the faint of heart.

you may be right i just know for me i shot the best 20 target round i have ever shot when i shot known.and no i did not kill it and shoot nothing but 12s but i did shoot *alot* more than normal.would have had 2 more if not for hitting another arrow already in the 12 and bumping me to an 8.what i noticed is the guys i shot with didn't shoot bad the first day which was unknown but really upped their game so to speak on the known day.again this is just what i saw and experienced.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

as a senior i kinda like both ways known and unknown ,yes unknown is alot harder but if more like known maybe for the good of archery maybe try more of known. i am more of a hunter than an target shooter ,i always know the distance when i bowhunt for deer so maybe known is the way to go ?? but the dot thing ? wild animals don`t have those dot stickers on them . just say`n ?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Kent, read my reply in the ASA forums. In short, what keeps archery from really growing, there are only so many people with the resources to shoot the national circuit.* Health and Growth of archery... The biggest part of this health and growth only comes up when it's the national level being rattled off about.* Archery is doing well. I mean, what part of the ASA ProAms and Classic make up 6,500 listings under 3DShoots.com? Yep, some clubs struggle for a attendance and others have all they want and more... I don't know how 15 or 16 3D clubs exist in a one hour's drive of my house, but sure some one is supporting this many clubs.....
> 
> I don't know the average lay out of cash and loss of time from work, but it sure can't be cheap. I've spoke with a few and setting aside $5000 for the ASA year was noted.... My home state, Illinois. I got off cheap splitting all and spent maybe $250 or so and this just for Saturday and Sunday at Metro. If I had been working, figure $25 per hour loss of income. Dang! Retired and I make more than some make working. And though quite capable of attending national events I found the nationals weren't for me and suspect others feel the same way or would feel the same way...





Kstigall said:


> Are you saying archery does not need more growth/participation? Are you saying ignoring a potential market (Senior's) of new archers that have more money and time than other age groups is reasonable from a business stand point?


Read the Bold again. There are only so many people that can and will shoot the national circuit. I can't put a number to clubs across the United States, but there's one heck of a bunch them. In General Discussion there is a Post/Thread quoting numbers of 18.5 million archers. I don't believe it and said as much. I did agree with another reply of in the 3 million neighborhood. The big organizations aren't much bigger than they were a few years back, actually smaller if counting the NFAA's once great height of membership. Regardless, archery below the national circuits is doing quite well. Believe whatever here; NFAA, smaller than is was. ASA, bigger than it was. IBO said to be stagnant, but larger than the ASA.

If you can come up with better numbers than I put forth, give it a shot. My original information came from Jay Barrs, head of ATA's ArrowSport some years back. Spoke with the man for a good hour... Of course, back yard/club shooters and hunters made up the vast majority of the 3.5 million Jay noted.... Somewhere in my boxes I have a transcript of all Jay and I discussed.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2244533&p=1070104105#post1070104105




Kstigall said:


> Forget about national tournaments. I know I frequently run into guys that are 45+ and are just now exploring archery or coming back to it. Last night a guy at a large sporting goods store said, "I got this off Craigslist for $40....shoulder shrug....both my kids are now in college and I need something to do". He is an immediate potential local archery club participant.
> 
> In the same shop about 8 weeks ago I helped set up a guy that had not shot a bow since he was a kid. He traded in a pair of expensive .22's because he enjoyed what he saw at our recreational indoor spot league one night. He is VERY likely going to be an NFAA member next winter. I could go on with examples of middle aged men and women "trying" archery each winter.


Many of can relate the same thing. I just got one signed up at our club this past week. Newbie, some stay, some don't. Some of us help where we can, instruction, equipment, accessories and more. I've had the same. Price of bow, equipment and accessories scares many newbies. Shocked were two parents when they wanted to buy a bow for their graduating NASP son. So I advised checking the classifieds for a bow that won't fit their son and I gave what I believed what would be in his draw length and draw weight. Yep, there are many starter bows on the market and still $450 is scary.

Again, look at the number of ASA Known and 50/50 classes. I can't believe someone can't fit in.

Kent, don't stop. The way things are going just maybe there will be a Senior Known in the near future.... I don't know. Instead of arguing why not start a petition at ASA events? Hey, majority rules, I have no problem with it....


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

This question is for everyone on this thread that is arguing against ASA having a Senior Known class. Answer this question, and give a legitimate reason. Why should ASA not have a Senior Known class?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm not real concerned one way or another because the ASA has proven to be proactive in managing their business unlike the NFAA and the IBO. What I mean by this is the ASA actively looks for and pursues any changes that will keep them viable into the future. So I am quite sure Mike T. and the ASA are merely waiting for the right moment to unleash "Senior Known". Right now I would say it is not a question of if it's going to happen but rather when. The biggest error that I've seen the ASA make is letting Delta provide garbage targets to it's customers. There is no reason for folks to get bent out of shape over this thread unless you are totally focused on "your" game and that is traditional 3D.

Locally 3D, field and indoor spot archery have infinitely less participants than say 20 years ago. The NFAA shot themselves in the foot or rather slit their own throats. The IBO is suffocating itself and doesn't realize it. 

My OP was not about arguing or even stirring the pot. Archery is not unlike any other "thing" where a large portion of people are afraid of "change" and understand perfectly. I've been heavily into the technology field since the early '80's so I've been around change more than a little! What some archers don't understand is that the "game" (archery) is bigger than they are.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> So what if a few Seniors changed to a Known class? Changing classes is NOT a loss for the ASA. I understand you don't want Known distance 3D. Why should you support Known distance 3D when you are an experienced and successful yardage guesser? The only reason would be to make 3D archery more appealing to potentially "new" competition participants. Of course this would be of little to no benefit to current yardage guessing class participants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kent. You certainly have the phraseology down (highlighted in bold text) that Mike likes to hear. Matter of fact I have heard the same words from him. :wink:



Kstigall said:


> I'm not real concerned one way or another because the ASA has proven to be proactive in managing their business unlike the NFAA and the IBO. What I mean by this is the ASA actively looks for and pursues any changes that will keep them viable into the future. So I am quite sure Mike T. and the ASA are merely waiting for the right moment to unleash "Senior Known". *Right now I would say it is not a question of if it's going to happen but rather when. *The biggest error that I've seen the ASA make is letting Delta provide garbage targets to it's customers. There is no reason for folks to get bent out of shape over this thread unless you are totally focused on "your" game and that is traditional 3D.
> 
> *Locally 3D, field and indoor spot archery have infinitely less participants than say 20 years ago.* The NFAA shot themselves in the foot or rather slit their own throats. The IBO is suffocating itself and doesn't realize it.
> 
> My OP was not about arguing or even stirring the pot. Archery is not unlike any other "thing" where a large portion of people are afraid of "change" and understand perfectly. I've been heavily into the technology field since the early '80's so I've been around change more than a little! What some archers don't understand is that the "game" (archery) is bigger than they are.



Our state level ASA event numbers have continued to grow here in Texas. There are a lot of factors that have led to this growth, but I know that the introduction of known distance into the format has had a positive effect on our growth.

Last year ASA included the Sr. Hunter class based on the success we had with the Sr. Hunter class during the 2013 season here in Texas. Sr. Hunter grew to 46 shooters at the Texas Pro/Am. We are regularly having 15+ Sr. Hunter competitors at state level events. Mike is very happy with the numbers in Sr. Hunter. It will only continue to grow.

And you are correct.....it is only a matter of time on the Senior Known class.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kent, I can somewhat live with your reply... Many of us didn't shoot 3D back when the change over from 2D and 3D came about. Said for our club was 300 for shooting 3D and that or close to 300 at other clubs. Field was a family affair, dad, mom, and kids. That changed before 1998. The 4 star Field our club had become a overgrown jungle when I took the tour of the club grounds. Ever since I shot my first Indoor the game was down hill the farther a league shoot went. 10 week leagues started high and less than 1/4 remained the last week. NFAA state sanctioned Indoors had good attendance here and bad somewhere else. Qualification rounds were eliminated with "no archer will turned away" and changed to Aggregates attendance dropped even more. The highest turn out for the Indoor State Championships I recorded (board member at the time) was 91.... Our NFAA state members hated 3D. Nearly 400 NFAA members and if 30 showed for the 3D Championship we were lucky. Our NFAA state chapter, Illinois, tittered between life and death...maybe still does. Our state dropped the 3D Championship. Our club dropped the NFAA. I didn't run for another term on the Board, finally quit being a NFAA member. However, I still support our state Chapter when I can...

Change. I'm not afraid of change, just like there be a good cause. There wasn't sometime back in the ASA forums and really not anything to back up a change here other than finally the K45 and 50 classes are growing...and also backed with growing numbers at ASA ProAm events.


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

intersting... is having a known class for the old guys going to be any different then the known yardage classes that we can compete in already? What about a push to try and recruit shooter of the older set to shoot the known that is presently offered. It takes out the yardage issues that spring up from the eye site issues as we get longer in the tooth, yet we still have the smarts from years of practice to understand how to shoot that shot due to the angle of the ground... something the younger set is still learning.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Grnmtn said:


> intersting... is having a known class for the old guys going to be any different then the known yardage classes that we can compete in already? What about a push to try and recruit shooter of the older set to shoot the known that is presently offered. It takes out the yardage issues that spring up from the eye site issues as we get longer in the tooth, yet we still have the smarts from years of practice to understand how to shoot that shot due to the angle of the ground... something the younger set is still learning.


Do you think the fading eyesight that affects judging has any other affects on the shot or scores?


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

Why wouldn't there be a known senior class? Most if not all of the other classes have a senior division. Things that deteriorate as we get older affect shooting whether known or unknown yardage. Eye sight gets worse which affects aiming, not just yardage judging. Our muscles get weaker which affects our ability to hold steady. Our stamina is not as great. So why not have a senior division for all the classes? It's the logical progression. The senior divisions are not mandatory, if you want to shoot with the kids you still can.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

what age are you going to put on it? 50? 60? 70? there's gonna be lots of different opinions as to what makes one a "senior". i guess we could use aarp's 50...except they just use 50 so they can get more people to pay memberships.

mickey d and most of the fast food places seem to put "senior" at 50. 

but the federal government sets socialable security at 62+.

and asa set senior masters at 70.

maybe opening a can of worms???


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

darton3d said:


> Why wouldn't there be a known senior class? Most if not all of the other classes have a senior division. Things that deteriorate as we get older affect shooting whether known or unknown yardage. Eye sight gets worse which affects aiming, not just yardage judging. Our muscles get weaker which affects our ability to hold steady. Our stamina is not as great. So why not have a senior division for all the classes? It's the logical progression. The senior divisions are not mandatory, if you want to shoot with the kids you still can.


all that degeneration you cite actually starts to kick in when you reach your late 20's and early 30's. look at pro athelets in baseball, football, basketball....skills start to go around the early 30's for most.


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## P'town Shooter (Dec 30, 2012)

All Sr. classes will be known yardage by 2015. Just my opinion,but it would draw in more shooters.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

P'town Shooter said:


> All Sr. classes will be known yardage by 2015. Just my opinion,but it would draw in more shooters.


I'm not so sure about that. Us old guys are kind of set in our ways. lain:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Grnmtn said:


> intersting... is having a known class for the old guys going to be any different then the known yardage classes that we can compete in already? What about a push to try and recruit shooter of the older set to shoot the known that is presently offered. It takes out the yardage issues that spring up from the eye site issues as we get longer in the tooth, yet we still have the smarts from years of practice to understand how to shoot that shot due to the angle of the ground... something the younger set is still learning.





tmorelli said:


> Do you think the fading eyesight that affects judging has any other affects on the shot or scores?





carlosii said:


> all that degeneration you cite actually starts to kick in when you reach your late 20's and early 30's. look at pro athelets in baseball, football, basketball....skills start to go around the early 30's for most.


Began playing very competitive men's "open" slow pitch softball in my early 20's and did so through my early 40's. This league and my team had MANY former Division 1 scholarship and pro ball players. Timing and flow of the game at some point begins to seem "faster". I know all about "aging"! It is not just eye sight that seriously effects our archery scores and in fact eye sight isn't the most troublesome for me. I began shooting competitive archery at the age of 43 and my physical abilities have measurably declined. The ability to hold the bow steady is significantly less now than 8 years ago.......big time. My scores have much bigger swings than just a few years ago. I have to practice more, longer and better each year to get it back. Shot execution "glitches" seem to pop up more often and take longer to smooth out. 



P'town Shooter said:


> All Sr. classes will be known yardage by 2015. Just my opinion,but it would draw in more shooters.





sagecreek said:


> I'm not so sure about that. Us old guys are kind of set in our ways. lain:


You are both right. The old guys will fight Known distance tooth and nail. But those guys are dying off and/or dropping out every year. Some of us "old guys" such as myself aren't all that old really and we ain't skeered of change! Well "Senior Known" is NOT actually a change it's an addition. "Senior Known" does NOT reduce opportunity but rather increases opportunity. It just happens that the folks getting a new opportunity have resource such as money, time, influence and business connections. All of which is a big *+* for archery. Of course the ASA will be the first archery org to reach out.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Kent, I can somewhat live with your reply... Many of us didn't shoot 3D back when the change over from 2D and 3D came about. Said for our club was 300 for shooting 3D and that or close to 300 at other clubs. Field was a family affair, dad, mom, and kids. That changed before 1998. The 4 star Field our club had become a overgrown jungle when I took the tour of the club grounds. Ever since I shot my first Indoor the game was down hill the farther a league shoot went. 10 week leagues started high and less than 1/4 remained the last week. NFAA state sanctioned Indoors had good attendance here and bad somewhere else. Qualification rounds were eliminated with "no archer will turned away" and changed to Aggregates attendance dropped even more. The highest turn out for the Indoor State Championships I recorded (board member at the time) was 91.... Our NFAA state members hated 3D. Nearly 400 NFAA members and if 30 showed for the 3D Championship we were lucky. Our NFAA state chapter, Illinois, tittered between life and death...maybe still does. Our state dropped the 3D Championship. Our club dropped the NFAA. I didn't run for another term on the Board, finally quit being a NFAA member. However, I still support our state Chapter when I can...
> 
> Change. I'm not afraid of change, just like there be a good cause. There wasn't sometime back in the ASA forums and really not anything to back up a change here other than finally the K45 and 50 classes are growing...and also backed with growing numbers at ASA ProAm events.


Exactly. The NFAA leadership was narrow minded and still is with a few exceptions. Now the NFAA is a Cullinator/Yankton/Easton baby. Everyone else in leadership "roles" are irrelevant with zero influence over anything of any matter. 

Quite often current participants have disincentives to appreciate growth and it takes vision to MAKE it happen. K45 being a perfect example....... There were many ASA members that did not want the K45 to see the light of day. But now it's a mainstay of the ASA.

I do NOT agree with everything the ASA has done over the last few years!!!!


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

carlosii said:


> all that degeneration you cite actually starts to kick in when you reach your late 20's and early 30's. look at pro athelets in baseball, football, basketball....skills start to go around the early 30's for most.


So you are making a case that anyone over 30 should be eligible to shoot in the senior classes??

I don't think you can compare the level of skill and conditioning needed for pro baseball, football or basketball to the skill and conditioning needed for archery. Any degradation in skills or conditioning for those pro sports due to age will show much more pronounced than in archery. No, I am not saying archery is not a sport or that archers aren't athletes. It's just not comparable to the sports you mention. And I don't think the degeneration with age affects archers as quickly. So the question remains, if there are senior divisions for the other classes, why not for known yardage classes also?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> Do you think the fading eyesight that affects judging has any other affects on the shot or scores?


And going at it with the attitude of you can't place or win is the wrong damned attitude.... 



carlosii said:


> all that degeneration you cite actually starts to kick in when you reach your late 20's and early 30's. look at pro athelets in baseball, football, basketball....skills start to go around the early 30's for most.


Yes, you are correct, but archery has options, lesser draw weight, better sights, clarifiers and lights to aid fading pins just to name a few. 

Attitude... You guys ain't gonna make me any older than I am. I'm still shooting Adult at club events. I ain't easing off them "pups." Just like this last weekend's State ASA Qualifier, this "pup" shooting Known Open C kept saying he was going to catch me. Yeah, I got the jump on him early. He almost did catch me, him and his range finder, but he didn't. Headed him by 1 point at the end for the win in Super Senior. I understand the "pup" took 1st in Known Open C....


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

For myself the biggest thing has been the eye site issue. Now for me it was never great to begin with so I am used to a fuzzy target, judging the yards went away from 35 to 40 or so yards out a couple of years ago. Soon after turning 50. I actually have decient form so I haven't seen a great drop off because of that, and can even say with the chaging of equipment I have been improving this year. But this bow is easier to shoot then my Hoyts were. I do believe tho that there is some issues like others have said with endurance and such that the argument can be made of why one for us. I do gain a bit of pride beating the younger set, but I want to be able to reserve judgement to a few years down the road LOL!


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## springy shooter (May 24, 2005)

I hear a lot of people saying known yardage shouldn't happen , but like so many others have said the K45 and K50 are growing every year.........

.look at The Redding Trail shoot...........I heard they had a record number this year at 1600, and it is all known in all classes..............they even put dots on the targets to aim at ...............think that would make it easier for us old guys to shoot at.................lol

I shoot the hunter class against the the younger guys and I have started shooting the senior hunter, both of which are 1/2 and 1/2...............I really enjoy shooting the jnown side just because I, like so many others don't have the time to practice judging..............I would probably shoot the senior known if it became a class............do not see anything wrong with it and do feel like it would grow like the other kknown classes too..........................Like so many of you older guys have stated, the eye sight thing has played a role in my scores too..............hard to aim at lines you can't see................lol


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

carlosii said:


> what age are you going to put on it? 50? 60? 70? there's gonna be lots of different opinions as to what makes one a "senior". i guess we could use aarp's 50...except they just use 50 so they can get more people to pay memberships.
> 
> mickey d and most of the fast food places seem to put "senior" at 50.
> 
> ...


The "standard" for archery world-wide is age 50 for Seniors, as it is for many other athletics as well. SO, it goes to follow that Senior known in ASA would be....to keep things standard... age 50+
Simple, no need to parry and thrust.
The NFAA was the lone hold-out about the age 50 for Seniors thing and finally changed Seniors from 55+ to 50+. The PROS however are fighting tooth and nail NOT to have the Silver Senior Pros and Master Senior Pros like the Adult divisions do have.
Guess they prefer to "Dump off" the Silver Senior age group and the Master Senior age group OUT of the "Pros" and back to the adult division so that the adult division then is competing "against PROS" that have been left with nowhere to go...either back to Adult division in Silver or Master Senior, or donate your money to the young bucks (the young bucks just love being handed the easy pickings), or QUIT?
field14 (Tom D.)


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

actually, i don't care one way or the other. making that decision rests with those who manage the governing organizations, and that's above my pay grade.

i will say i prefer unknown in the senior masters class, but i suspect if these classes go all known the folks winning now will be winning after the change.

now, if there's gonna be a Master Pro class i'd have to lobby real hard for unknown.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i lobby`ed for a Silver Senior Pro class with the NFAA and was told it will not happen . what i should have done was talk with Easton, so if you are going to lobby for unknown yardage maybe just contact Easton first ???


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pete53 said:


> i lobby`ed for a Silver Senior Pro class with the NFAA and was told it will not happen . what i should have done was talk with Easton, so if you are going to lobby for unknown yardage maybe just contact Easton first ???


There are two entities that run the NFAA. The Cullinator and Easton. The rest are for show.


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## eyeswideopen (May 10, 2011)

I'm all in for a senior hunter known class. This is my 3rd year of 3d, 2nd yr. of ASA, I moved out this year from novice to the SH class. The move from 30 to 40 yds really hasn't been a problem as much as judging the unknown targets. It's a bit demoralizing sometimes to shoot 5's or to completely miss targets because of misjudging yardage. But when my score is close to the same or higher as some of the guys who are career shooters in novice, that refuse to move up, it helps me deal with it. That being said, I think it would clear a lot of gray hair out of the novice class if there were a known SH class.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

eyeswideopen said:


> I'm all in for a senior hunter known class. This is my 3rd year of 3d, 2nd yr. of ASA, I moved out this year from novice to the SH class. The move from 30 to 40 yds really hasn't been a problem as much as judging the unknown targets. It's a bit demoralizing sometimes to shoot 5's or to completely miss targets because of misjudging yardage. But when my score is close to the same or higher as some of the guys who are career shooters in novice, that refuse to move up, it helps me deal with it. That being said, I think it would clear a lot of gray hair out of the novice class if there were a known SH class.


I fully expect a Senior Known class would be an open class and not a Hunter class.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> I fully expect a Senior Known class would be an open class and not a Hunter class.


Come on, we need known hunter classes too. People that hunt with rangefinders have hunting setups, not all these fancy target setups. lain:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Come on, we need known hunter classes too. People that hunt with rangefinders have hunting setups, not all these fancy target setups. lain:


If I could get a 100 archers to show up to shoot a "known distance, dirty white tank top and plastic flower flip-flops" class I'd have one................. winner gets a 6-pack of warm Pabst.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> If I could get a 100 archers to show up to shoot a "known distance, dirty white tank top and plastic flower flip-flops" class I'd have one................. winner gets a 6-pack of warm Pabst.


I'm in.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> If I could get a 100 archers to show up to shoot a "known distance, dirty white tank top and plastic flower flip-flops" class I'd have one................. winner gets a 6-pack of warm Pabst.


Sign up 99 losers, cause I'm winning that!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I'm in.


I knew I could count on you......... I know it was the plastic flower flip flops that did it for you. I was thinking of adding "nose ring" but I figured that would be over the top. "Nose ring, split tongue, no more than one testicle" would have to be an entirely separate "class" due to popularity..........winner gets two packages of cold medicine tablets of their choice.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Sign up 99 losers, cause I'm winning that!


Yea, right! Once you see TMo rocking the flower flops you'll be too mentally and quite possibly physically impaired to shoot an arrow!


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> If I could get a 100 archers to show up to shoot a "known distance, dirty white tank top and plastic flower flip-flops" class I'd have one................. winner gets a 6-pack of warm Pabst.


i think this is the last can of PBR do they still make that? ukey:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I knew I could count on you......... I know it was the plastic flower flip flops that did it for you. I was thinking of adding "nose ring" but I figured that would be over the top. "Nose ring, split tongue, no more than one testicle" would have to be an entirely separate "class" due to popularity..........winner gets two packages of cold medicine tablets of their choice.


Of course, the cold medicine tablets must be LEGAL drugs and not on the list of banned substances! Warm Pabst beer for 1st place, 2nd place gets warm Schlitz beer, and 3rd place gets warm Hamm's beer. 4th place has to suffer through on "Rocky Mountain Rat's Pee", better known as "coor's" beer. hahahaha. Now, for 5th place....it is warm "BILLY BEER"...that is really some crapola beer, let me tell you that! YUK! But for 2nd-5th place....no flip flops, you dun gotta go barefootin'...ha.


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## southgaboy (Jan 28, 2007)

I shoot Sr.Open and really enjoy the class. However, with the work schedule I have had the last several months and most of the local 3D shoots shutting down my judging has suffered. I feel sure that you could draw a 
good crowd with Sr.Known because a lot of people dont have the time or money to look at targets these days. We lost some to the Sr. Hunter and ASA probably gained some who didn"t have an open rig but wanted to 
compete. Gaining people is a good thing for us, so I guess it boils down to will you gain enough new shooters with Sr. Hunter & Sr.Known & Sr.Open to have 3 classes.


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## bonecollector76 (Apr 23, 2005)

I'd come shoot that class in a second!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bsharkey said:


> i think this is the last can of PBR do they still make that? ukey:
> 
> View attachment 1949120


Absolutely! A few years ago it made a come back with the cool crowd......... Hank Williams Sr. rolled over in his grave.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Yea, right! Once you see TMo rocking the flower flops you'll be too mentally and quite possibly physically impaired to shoot an arrow!


You had me at flip flops.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

if you guys showed up i put the 3-d known shoot at my place 1st place a cold 24 pack bush lite,2nd place 2 bottles of boones farm wine cooled down -all rest of the places have to help drink it-13th place has to go get more beer ! " better wear boots and blue jeans i have poison ivy " "pole dance`s north of me 7 miles for you single guys"


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Crap! Just remembered. I suppose this Known Senior will want recognition also. Remember this? http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2221760


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

What were we talking about again? Senior moment. lain:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pete53 said:


> if you guys showed up i put the 3-d known shoot at my place 1st place a cold 24 pack bush lite,2nd place 2 bottles of boones farm wine cooled down -all rest of the places have to help drink it-13th place has to go get more beer ! " better wear boots and blue jeans i have poison ivy " "pole dance`s north of me 7 miles for you single guys"


Hey, careful what you say "bush lite" is illegal in most every state. I think Mississippi and in the Louisiana bayous they generally look the other way. 

For single guys? Those places are actually built for burned out married guys!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> what were we talking about again? Senior moment. lain:


exactly!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Just don't ride a pig in a barnyard....Riding "hogs" and chasin' chicks in that manner isn't what the 'big boys' are callin fun!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## alligood729 (Mar 25, 2007)

I'd shoot it. I'm tired of getting my can whipped by 20 somethings....If I'm gonna get beat, I'd rather it be somebody closer to my age....:mg::embara::wink:


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Shoot what you like and don't rip others for shooting what they like!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

nochance said:


> Shoot what you like and don't rip others for shooting what they like!


Unless....they are friends...and its all in good jest


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

bhtr3d said:


> Unless....they are friends...and its all in good jest


Friends?! I can't stand any of you guys!! LOL!!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Unless....they are friends...and its all in good jest


what?!?! I never "jest"....... I quit school in the third grade when they made me "play" during recess.



n2bows said:


> Friends?! I can't stand any of you guys!! LOL!!


Exactly!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Awe cant we all just get along.......my Obama imitation


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## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

DEPENDS is looking to sponsor shooters in this class


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pincher said:


> DEPENDS is looking to sponsor shooters in this class


That'd be Ok........ What is the Craigslist value of a case of Depends? Tim, you could make a fortune in Florida!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> That'd be Ok........ What is the Craigslist value of a case of Depends? Tim, you could make a fortune in Florida!


Lol......I could.....just have to make sure there is no loose or leaky ends


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

I would like a senior known 45. i would enter that class.


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## keyman (Mar 22, 2003)

lknchoppers said:


> I would like a senior known 45. i would enter that class.


me too!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

lknchoppers said:


> I would like a senior known 45. i would enter that class.


I want a Senior Known 40. lain:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> I want a Senior Known 40. lain:


You're old enough for your wants not to hurt 'ya........... Let's make it 42.5 max.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Got it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I wanna Super Senior Eagle class, Known 20 yards, age 60 and older. Not for Older Geezers though


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> I wanna Super Senior Eagle class, Known 20 yards, age 60 and older. Not for Older Geezers though


 With a beer cart cruising the range!


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

shootstraight said:


> With a beer cart cruising the range!


Pushed by a hooters waitress wearing a thong.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Dr.Dorite said:


> Pushed by a hooters waitress wearing a thong.


You really think your ticker could handle that, Doc?

You might get somethin' worse than target panic...just sayin'.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Dr.Dorite said:


> Pushed by a hooters waitress wearing a thong.





carlosii said:


> You really think your ticker could handle that, Doc?
> 
> You might get somethin' worse than target panic...just sayin'.


Thong? What's to handle?


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## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

Turning 50 next year..can't wait..looks like an INTERESTING group of folks!!!!!!!!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

ahcnc said:


> Turning 50 next year..can't wait..looks like an INTERESTING group of folks!!!!!!!!


"INTERESTING" is a very nice and polite way to say, "what an F'ed up bunch I'd like to see shooting"...............and I agree with YOUR assessment!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

ahcnc said:


> Turning 50 next year..can't wait..looks like an INTERESTING group of folks!!!!!!!!


50 interesting?? more like juvvies in training for becoming really interesting GEEZERS. :banana::banana:


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## elkhunter (Jun 7, 2002)

YUP, ya'll are never too old to learn --- you get your diploma when you graduate from the Senior Masters


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

"Senior Known" - will exist no later than the beginning of the 2016 3D year! I'm not saying that the ASA wants to create another class but they tend to satisfy their customers and there are lot more of us old F's (FOLKS!) out there with money and time to spend than any other demographic!

You heard it here first................


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> "Senior Known" - will exist no later than the beginning of the 2016 3D year! I'm not saying that the ASA wants to create another class but they tend to satisfy their customers and there are lot more of us old F's (FOLKS!) out there with money and time to spend than any other demographic!
> 
> You heard it here first................


Good, there will be less people in my class.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Good, there will be less people in my class.


:wink: You're classless...........


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## Pika54 (Jan 12, 2016)

Opinions or like rear ends, everybody has one. I use to shoot when there wasn't so many classes, and can remember over 400 shooter in open B. Almost 300 in open A and so on. When you won a shoot, you got a big check. Now if you win one you might get $300.00 or $400.00. TO MANY CLASSES. Like I said just my opinion.


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

2 year old thread, some of these old guys may not be around any more.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

Yeah, this confused the hell out of me too, until I realized that the thread went back to 2014. Heads up, Pika!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pika54 said:


> Opinions or like rear ends, everybody has one. I use to shoot when there wasn't so many classes, and can remember over 400 shooter in open B. Almost 300 in open A and so on. When you won a shoot, you got a big check. Now if you win one you might get $300.00 or $400.00. TO MANY CLASSES. Like I said just my opinion.


Yet there are more people than _ever_ at ASA shoots. The IBO is an entirely different and extremely faulty beast. There is a ton more money paid out by the ASA than the IBO. Open A, Open B, Senior Known and Known 45 ALL paid over $400 to the winner at the '16 London KY shoot. At the this shoot Open C (a _novice _class) had to be split into 3 classes due to the number of shooters and each of the Open C class winners received over $325. I do think the ASA pays too deep into a class but that's another thing all together.

There is more money in ASA 3D now than there ever has been. The money may have moved from say Hunter class to K45 but there is more of it overall due to large participation numbers. The IBO does not pay back very well AND most of the shooters do not shoot in money classes and it has done nothing to keep their game growing. In fact they have fought growth!

The IBO is a good example of what happens when you insist on keeping your business stagnant and stuck in the past! When your customer base decreases for many years in a row while your competitors customer base explodes and you insist on not making any changes you don't truly care about the business. You care more about being in charge than being successful.


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

Kstigall said:


> Yet there are more people than _ever_ at ASA shoots. The IBO is an entirely different and extremely faulty beast. There is a ton more money paid out by the ASA than the IBO. Open A, Open B, Senior Known and Known 45 ALL paid over $400 to the winner at the '16 London KY shoot. At the this shoot Open C (a _novice _class) had to be split into 3 classes due to the number of shooters and each of the Open C class winners received over $325. I do think the ASA pays too deep into a class but that's another thing all together.
> 
> There is more money in ASA 3D now than there ever has been. The money may have moved from say Hunter class to K45 but there is more of it overall due to large participation numbers. The IBO does not pay back very well AND most of the shooters do not shoot in money classes and it has done nothing to keep their game growing. In fact they have fought growth!
> 
> The IBO is a good example of what happens when you insist on keeping your business stagnant and stuck in the past! When your customer base decreases for many years in a row while your competitors customer base explodes and you insist on not making any changes you don't truly care about the business. You care more about being in charge than being successful.


There is money in the IBO, they have yours and mine and everyone else's.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

While I haven't shot and IBO event (none around me), I've heard enough to make me probably stay away. Is it true they make everyone start at the first stake, and don't shotgun start? That's enough right there.


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## eyeswideopen (May 10, 2011)

Will there be much of an effect of the >60y.o. SuperSenior K40 class on reducing the number of shooters in SeniorK45? Will the addition of this class and the other new classes help shorten the amount of time to shoot 20 targets in all classes with excessive times involved in completing the course?


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

eyeswideopen said:


> Will there be much of an effect of the >60y.o. SuperSenior K40 class on reducing the number of shooters in SeniorK45? Will the addition of this class and the other new classes help shorten the amount of time to shoot 20 targets in all classes with excessive times involved in completing the course?


There will be some from Senior Masters dropping down to the SS Known class...including me.


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

eyeswideopen said:


> Will there be much of an effect of the >60y.o. SuperSenior K40 class on reducing the number of shooters in SeniorK45? Will the addition of this class and the other new classes help shorten the amount of time to shoot 20 targets in all classes with excessive times involved in completing the course?


a few 60 plus guys shot Senior Known but its my opinion that it won't make a difference.

I also have not seen Senior Known taking excessive time to finish a course. I've seen the course with 2 sit out groups and it still wasn't anything I would call excessive. What else do you have to do besides shoot?


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## eyeswideopen (May 10, 2011)

It is nice to be able to return to the hotel and shower before making a 6, 8, 10, etc hour drive. I always get a late check out on Sunday. I've cut it pretty close on time a few times. Other than Sunday I don't care, unless its 4 1/2 hours wading ankle deep mud in (texas, alabama, etc) but that is only surpassed by 4 to 5 hours of Metropolis heat/humidity, ... yes I do have something better to do...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

eyeswideopen said:


> Will there be much of an effect of the >60y.o. SuperSenior K40 class on reducing the number of shooters in SeniorK45? Will the addition of this class and the other new classes help shorten the amount of time to shoot 20 targets in all classes with excessive times involved in completing the course?



I don't think it will impact Senior Known in the least. The class is growing steadily and if we have say 10 guys move to Super Senior Known I'm sure we'll have at least that many "new" people shooting the class.

I've seen Senior Known move very slow simply because some folks do _too much_ yacking and slow the entire course. It's moved slower when we've had distance judging classes on the same course but that is expected. Of course it takes longer when you have extra groups on the course. In my opinion the biggest problem is when we have extra groups, large groups AND a distance judging class all on the course at once. I like to socialize as much as the next guy but I much prefer shooting.

Twice last year I looked around and saw the _entire _range was simply standing still waiting.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

Kstigall said:


> I don't think it will impact Senior Known in the least. The class is growing steadily and if we have say 10 guys move to Super Senior Known I'm sure we'll have at least that many "new" people shooting the class.
> 
> I've seen Senior Known move very slow simply because some folks do _too much_ yacking and slow the entire course. It's moved slower when we've had distance judging classes on the same course but that is expected. Of course it takes longer when you have extra groups on the course. In my opinion the biggest problem is when we have extra groups, large groups AND a distance judging class all on the course at once. I like to socialize as much as the next guy but I much prefer shooting.
> 
> Twice last year I looked around and saw the _entire _range was simply standing still waiting.


Those groups that cause such a bottleneck need to be broken up on Day 2.


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

Milo357 said:


> Those groups that cause such a bottleneck need to be broken up on Day 2.


third let down is a zero this year so that should speed up some people


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Milo357 said:


> Those groups that cause such a bottleneck need to be broken up on Day 2.


I think part of the reason it happens is that when we move slow for some time people tend to not pay attention so we are even slower to move.

It's difficult to keep things flowing when you have two extra groups and just a few guys that have to be told to move along often. They are slow to go pull arrows, they are slow coming back from the target, they are slow to the next stake and then they want to hold court between targets.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> I don't think it will impact Senior Known in the least. The class is growing steadily and if we have say 10 guys move to Super Senior Known I'm sure we'll have at least that many "new" people shooting the class.
> 
> I've seen Senior Known move very slow simply because some folks do _too much_ yacking and slow the entire course. It's moved slower when we've had distance judging classes on the same course but that is expected. Of course it takes longer when you have extra groups on the course. In my opinion the biggest problem is when we have extra groups, large groups AND a distance judging class all on the course at once. I like to socialize as much as the next guy but I much prefer shooting.
> 
> Twice last year I looked around and saw the _entire _range was simply standing still waiting.


Senior classes move slow because....they are seniors. Besides dealing with achy joints there's always the problems associated with questions like, "Where's my chair?", "Did somebody get my arrow?" "Was that me or did you step on a duck?"


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

carlosii said:


> Senior classes move slow because....they are seniors. Besides dealing with achy joints there's always the problems associated with questions like, "Where's my chair?", "Did somebody get my arrow?" "Was that me or did you step on a duck?"


It should move faster now the "old guys" will be moving into the "Really Old Known" class! :becky:


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## 04razortec (Apr 21, 2013)

Nope, because I am coming, and will be removing and putting on my glasses frequently lol.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

It's the people who shoot and then while standing at stake glass the target again. That needs to stop. Moving from Senior Known to Super Senior Known this year. Will still get my butt handed to me on a platter but at least they will be me age. Bet we are the most fun to shoot with as we have all lived a bit. Are walkers and O2 bottles allowed  .


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

Old guy classes move slower because we see no real need to speed up. We have 7 target conversations on which blood pressure meds work the best. Then someone mentions their prostrate and there goes another conversation, do you sleep through the night or do you have to get up to pee. Then we get the, where is my glasses, where is my bow. We get winded if we move to fast.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Don't forget the "where is the nearest porta-poddy" question and everyone keeling an eye on the line.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

jimb2 said:


> Old guy classes move slower because we see no real need to speed up. We have 7 target conversations on which blood pressure meds work the best. Then someone mentions their prostrate and there goes another conversation, do you sleep through the night or do you have to get up to pee. Then we get the, where is my glasses, where is my bow. We get winded if we move to fast.


It ain't "whether" we get up to pee...its how many times do we get up to pee.


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## 04razortec (Apr 21, 2013)

jimb2 said:


> Old guy classes move slower because we see no real need to speed up. We have 7 target conversations on which blood pressure meds work the best. Then someone mentions their prostrate and there goes another conversation, do you sleep through the night or do you have to get up to pee. Then we get the, where is my glasses, where is my bow. We get winded if we move to fast.


Yup! Made a bad shot tryin to eaves drop on a prostate conversation lol.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

Concerning the 3 let down rule, what's the opinion of an arrow falling off the rest? Is that considered a "let down"? To me, I guy or gal as to have pulled back successfully, settled into a stance, looked down range, THEN let down to be a "let down". Equipment failure shouldn't count.

Anyone know what ASA says? What do you guys think?


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Milo357 said:


> Concerning the 3 let down rule, what's the opinion of an arrow falling off the rest? Is that considered a "let down"? To me, I guy or gal as to have pulled back successfully, settled into a stance, looked down range, THEN let down to be a "let down". Equipment failure shouldn't count.
> 
> Anyone know what ASA says? What do you guys think?



Think its been slightly discussed but have had no affirmation from ASA. Don't think anyone soul be dinged for an arrow falling of rest. Now if it becomes a repeat issue then something needs to be done.think we have all been around enough to know when someone is "playing" the system or there being a legitimate issue. We all know wind can play havoc on a blade. Poker anyone.


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