# WI legislation and the situation here



## Rancid Crabtree

For those out-of-staters that seem to have an opinion for WI issues (even though they have not bothered to educate themselves on the subject) , I offer a bit of education. The WI DNR was kind enough to ask Bowhunters and gun deer hunters many of the same questions when they conducted hunter surveys so we are able to compare the attitudes of Bowhunters to our gun hunting counterparts. Not surprising, gun hunters and Bowhunters (since they are many times the same person) are giving the same responses. The DNR conduct a gun deer hunter survey every year and a Bowhunter survey every 4 years. See below.


Question 5 from the Bowhunter survey and question 9 from the gun hunter survey asked the same question:


*"How strongly do you oppose or support a 4-day antlerless-only GUN hunt in mid-October for management units 20% or more above goal?"*


For both groups, the number one reply was "Strongly oppose" (which is odd because the Oct. hunt is a firearms hunt making one speculate bow and gun hunters would differ in their opinions but based on the low deer numbers, it appears that all deer hunters oppose any additional way to kill more deer)


Question 22 for the bow survey and question 25 for the gun survey asked :


*"Think about the number of deer you saw during the entire season. How satisfied are you with the number of deer you saw?"*


Bowhunters, 81.1% dissatisfied............ Gun hunters 86.7% dissatisfied.


Question 23 for the bow survey and question 26 for the gun survey asked:


*"Please check all of the factors below that you believe affected the number of deer you saw during your 2009 archery deer hunt."*


both groups selected "Declining local deer populations" as the number 1 answer.


Question 24 for the bow survey and question 27 for the gun survey asked:


*" Please check all of the factors that may have limited the amount of time you spent deer hunting this fall."*


Both groups gave the same reply as the number one reason: " Not enough deer in my area to hunt"


Question 21 for Bowhunters and question 22 for gun hunters asked :


*" Please rate the factors that most influence your perception of a “quality” deer hunt."*


Both groups gave the same answer as their number one reply. "Seeing deer". Not surprising, their 2nd choice matched as well.


Question 19 for Bowhunters and question 21 for gun hunters asked:


*" Overall, how would you rate the quality of your 2009 hunt? (Check Only One.)"*


Both groups picked "Very low" as their number 1 reply.


Question 20 for only the Bowhunter survey asked:


*" How much confidence do you have in the DNR’s estimate of the deer herd in Wisconsin?"*


84.1% had little to no confidence. The gun hunters (if asked) would certainly have said the same thing.


Because the Bowhunters are the gun hunters, logic suggests that similar attitudes towards crossbows are shared by gun hunters. Especially since they realize that crossbows mean more hunters in the archery deer season which translates into more deer killed prior to the gun deer season. That is a point that is not missed on the gun hunters. Now, thanks to the data from Michigan after allowing xbows, its easy to make that point. 

Last year, angry gun hunters asked that Bowhunters be stripped of the antlerless tag that comes with the archery license. Last year, there was a push for moving the gun season up a week into the rut to give gun hunters a better chance at bucks. The low deer numbers are causing in-fighting over the remaining deer. When this happens, Bowhunters tend to loose in terms of tagging and season length. All of this is already taking place without additional hunters being inserted into the archery deer season with crossbows. The current list of weapons in WI is more than capable of controlling the deer population. The aged and infirmed are currently allowed to use a crossbow in WI and that is a great law. Allowing them a weapon with such ease of use and advantages allows them to partisipate on par with bowhunters.

This year, there are 18 deer units in WI in which bow and gun hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in an effort to rebuild the deer population. This might explain why deer hunters are not interested in adding full inclusion of crossbows.(even if a few from OH, PA, MI, AR, IN and Canada insist crossbows are always the right answer for every state) Since they seem so interested in WI, I thought that starting an educational series would help get them up to speed.


You can view the results of the gun deer hunters survey at this link.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/gundeer.pdf


The bowhunter survey results can be found at this link.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/bowdeer.pdf


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## Rancid Crabtree

Continuing with the out-of-state educational series "Wisconsin"

While looking into the herd status issue in my constant pursuit of knowledge and information in order to get a better handle on where the population is, I started poking around the DNR website for data/info. For the first time in as long as I can recall, we were not given a pre-hunt number from the Department. I have been looking for that data because it helps to better understand what the fawn recruitment was last spring. While searching I came across this video done by Wisconsin Eye. In this interview, the host asks a DNR rep what the official count is of how many deer there are in WI right now (July 10 2009). His answer was 1.2 million. You can watch that video at the attached link. Scroll down to the 9th video from the top of the list, titled: 

" 07.10.09 | Perspective Wisconsin: Conservation Congress Celebrates 75 Years"

http://www.wiseye.org/wisEye_programming/ARCHIVES-pwi.html

You will see the question and answer on the video. Start watching at the 12 minute mark. You will hear the official estimate at the 12:40 mark. 1.2 million. The Department has published last year's over winter population calculation at 1,005,006 deer. That means the fawn recruitment for last year was 194,994 deer or a 19.4% recruitment rate. The 2008 recruitment was 25.2%. These last two year are very much out of the norm. 

For those that might not have a firm grasp of this (and I mean no disrespect) I post the graphic below so you can see how fawn recruitment can be determined by looking at this image . This is not my data. This comes from the Dept.










Below you will see that data from 1980 until today. Again, all this data is DNR data with the exception of the 2009 total harvest. That is my estimate. The same is true for the 2009 post hunt population number. That is a product of my harvest estimate.










Looking at the above graphic, 1980 thru 2007 (prior 28 years), the average fawn recruitment was 53.8%

1998 thru 2007 (prior 10 years) the average fawn recruitment was 58.6%

2003 thru 2007 (prior 5 years) the average fawn recruitment was 60%%

And now in 2009 the fawn recruitment is only 19.4%. Look at 2003, the Dept. says 748,596 fawns were born and in 2009 only 194,994 fawns were born. What the heck is going on? And why should we care?

Remember, once at goal, we hunters are supposed to annually harvest the deer in excess of the goal so as to get back to goal each year. That is how you stay at goal. If 400,000 fawns are born in a year, the Dept. had better set quotas to remove 400,000 deer so the herd gets back to goal after that seasons hunt. Look at the year 2003. The Dept. says that 748,596 fawns were born. That year, we killed 485,965 deer, meaning we did not kill off the fawn expansion so the herd had a net gain. 

Now look at 2008. The Dept. states that 307,120 fawns were born that year and we killed in excess of that (453,000) We killed more than were born which of course makes a herd shrink.

Now look at 2009. The fawn recruitment was only 194,994 deer. (The lowest in many many years and far below the average) and if my estimated harvest of 320,000 is a good number, we will have killed off far more deer than were born. We will have killed 1.64 deer for every fawn born. If you thought the 2009 deer season was poor and did not offer you much in the way of deer sightings, you're not going to like the 2010 season either. 

Ok, so this is an alarming stat but beyond that, let's look at the other ways deer die beside at the hands of hunters because this plays a big role in where the herd is going and the number of deer available to hunters. I have posted the attached link before. It is the DNR's info sheet on predator effects on the deer herd. This only covers the Northern forest and Central forest regions but it's worth looking at. 

It shows that in those two regions of the state, Wolves, Coyotes, Bear, Bobcats, winter and cars will kill 93,100 deer or a number of deer equal to 76% of what hunters kill. That is a big number and still does not include poachers, disease, farmers bailing fawns or all the other ways deer die. Why should we care?? If the Department's numbers are valid and only 194,994 fawns were born in 2009 and in just two regions of the state, 93,100 deer were killed by non-hunting methods, that leaves only 101,894 deer for us hunters to harvest but we know there are predators and cars and farmers and poachers and winters and disease in the other regions of the state so that 93,100 will surely be larger. 

Will an at goal population of deer (currently 737,000) provide enough annual fawn recruitment to satisfy the take of winters, predators, cars, disease, poachers, etc. and still provide enough deer for a quality hunting experience to the 640,000 gun hunters and 250,000 bowhunters? I have concerns because Wolves, Coyotes, Bear, Bobcats, winter, cars, disease, poachers, etc. will not be denied their annual take leaving far less for you and I. This is the reason I have been advocating for (and testified in favor of) an increase in the over winter goals. 

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/pdfs/wolvesdeer2009.pdf


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## Rancid Crabtree

Another installment in the out-of-state educational series "Wisconsin"

Click the link below and watch it cycle a few times. See if you notice anything. 

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab16/meestalubba/map-gif.gif


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## Rancid Crabtree

Part four in the continuing eduactional series "Wisconsin"

Part of the recommendations from the legislature that came out of the Madison hearing was for the Dept. to utilize more car kill data as an indicator of population trends. When the gun buck harvest rates are high, so are the car kill numbers and so is the population as a whole. We all know that the gun buck harvest last year was the lowest since 1983. The WI car deer crash data by County came out today for 2009 (the fiscal year runs from June to July so 09 ended on June 30th) and low and behold, We hit deer in 2009 at about the same rate as we did back in 1983 (26 years ago) In fact, there has only been one year since 1983 that we hit fewer deer in WI and that was within only a few hundred of this year's total. 

Statewide, the car deer crashes dropped another 11.2% from last year's drop. Since EAB kicked in 2004, the car deer crashes have dropped steadily.

2004: ......... 48,316

2005: ......... 41,687

2006: ......... 36,900

2007: .......... 35,685

2008: ......... 31,951

2009: ..........28,374

Since 2004, the gun buck harvest has dropped 22%. The car deer crashes in that same period have dropped 41%.

I looked at 2 of the counties that historically had some of the highest numbers in the state for car deer crashes over the years. Waupaca and Shawano County (62B) which was slated to be EAB again this year (before the EAB hearing) The Dept's estimates 62B is still 120% over goal at 55 deer per square mile of range. Here are the car kill numbers for Waupaca County.

2004: ....... 2,333

2005: ........1,701

2006: ........1,943

2007: .......1,335

2008: .......1,027

2009: .......905

Car kills have dropped 61% in that time and yet the Dept. says that in unit 62B, if half of the deer in that unit were killed today, they would still be 20% over goal. For Shawano County (the other half of 62B), the car deer crash results are the same.

2004: ......... 2,150

2009: ........... 970 ........ a 55% reduction.

Here are the gun harvest numbers for 62B

2004: 2,554 bucks ..........4,894 antlerless

2008: 2,003 bucks .........4,139 antlerless

That's a 22% reduction in buck harvest and with unlimited antlerless tags and EAB, a 15% reduction in antlerless harvest. 

Nobody wants more car deer crashes but we do want accurate population estimates so that season structures can be set accordingly. My guess is that the residents of Waupaca County are shocked that they are estimated at 120% over goal with the deer numbers of today. Those residents include farmers of which there are only 2 enrolled in the crop damage program in Waupaca County while Shawano County only has 1 farmer enrolled. Clearly the population in 62B is way down, there is very little ag damage, a huge drop off in car kills and harvest and yet their 120% over goal according to faulty estimates. This is why hunters from Waupaca County went to Madison in April. I spoke with some of them. They said "Enough already with this EAB!" We don't have the deer the DNR thinks we do. STOP ALREADY!

Below is part of my testimony before a joint session of the WI legislture.

I made a point of using an indicator to show deer population trends. I used car deer crashes per Vehicle mile traveled. I have attached 3 slides from the presentation that will make the point more clear. These slides have NOT been updated with this new data but the point is clear. All of my data goes back to 1993 (15 years) Slide 1 shows the car deer crashes in WI per 100 million Vehicle miles traveled (VMT) Look at the years 1995 and 2000. The years, we killed the most bucks with a gun were also the years we killed the most with cars. When there are a lot of deer, both are a good indicator of that.










Slide 2 shoes the VMT traveled (From the DOT) Look again at the years 1995 and 2000. We are driving far more today that we did in those years when we hit record numbers of deer. Remember, we hit deer last year at a rate from 1983. Look at slide 2 again. Even though I don't have the year 1983 on the graph, you can see the trend. I will tell you that we are driving almost twice the miles in 2009 that we were in 1983 yet we are hitting deer at the 1983 rate. That is why I used car deer crash per VMT rather than just the raw number with nothing to compare it to. 










The last slide includes data from State Farm insurance and is telling of the trend in the WI deer herd. Clearly the deer population is at it's lowest level in many years yet the Dept. was of the opinion that we have a growing deer population. That is what prompted the DNR to put out it's initial season structure map in March showing 25 EAB units and the many herd control units we would be facing for this fall. After the Madison hearing, that map was scraped and EAB shelved. That map and EAB were shelved not because of some new data the Dept. realized but rather, because of the outrage of hunters and hunting groups that went to Madison. 










At that hearing the "EAB Watch Map" was mentioned. That was the map the Dept released to show that the population was out of control and to warn hunters that if they did not harvest enough deer in 2008 that they would could expect expanded EAB in 2009. I have attached that map as well.










When we went to Madison, hunters DID NOT ask for an alternate way to kill more deer or additional weapons. We did not seek a replacement to EAB under a different name. The point was to show that the Dept. does not have a handle on the true deer population which was fore warned by the SAK audit team. Hunters and the legislature asked the NRB and DNR to take specific action. They were asked to

1. Implement some, and eventually all, of the modifications to the SAK model recommended by a 2006 audit of the program to improve SAK

2. Incorporate, or give greater weight, to the following factors: predation; car kills; fawn mortality; winter severity

3. Authorize one or more outside organizations to use a methodology of their choosing to conduct independent deer herd counts in up to 5 DMUs in order to compare the accuracy of SAK to alternate methods.

4. Incorporate, or give greater weight, to the following factors: predation; car kills; fawn mortality; winter severity

5. Raise the over winter goals

6. Revise and re-establish what is considered deer range.

All that was ignored and instead we got an EAB alternative committee and we are now facing an early gun season opener. Is it any wonder that there is a growing level of frustration among bow and gun hunters? This also explain why adding crossbows is rejected by the majority of hunters in WI.


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## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Another installment in the out-of-state educational series "Wisconsin"
> 
> Click the link below and watch it cycle a few times. See if you notice anything.
> 
> http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab16/meestalubba/map-gif.gif


Yep, someone got their wish to have wolves back in the wild. Sounds like too much time lobbying for the wrong thing. Maybe they need someone who will look out for *all hunters* on *all hunting related problems* not just their personal agenda ones. 

AR tree hugger types love the wolf and want it back everywhere. Keep dividing hunters on studies, charts and pretty graphs on minor BS while the real enemy does damage.


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## Tim50

Lots of info...In your prior rants you often stated the hunters of Wisconsin *overwelmingly oppose *the use of crossbow. This was a question on your Wisconsin pool with a very encouraging answer for the crossbow community!!

7. Do you support making the crossbow a legal weapon for use during the archery deer season for any Wisconsin archery hunter?
Response
Frequency
Percent
Yes
1,986 *41.2%*
No
2,833 *58.8%*

No Answer = 99

The total percentage of hunters wanting a weapon current not legal for use is pretty high. I'll take that percentage...to start! And as neighboring states accept crossbow inclusion and the hunters become more educated to the crossbow this will only rise. Your prior postings would have led us to believe the hunters of Winconsin had no interest in crossbows. I also noticed the hunters ages tended to be older ( like in many states) this is also a prime recruitment toll for the crossbow. As we grow older the stick-recurve and even the compound with 80% letoff become harder to control. Crossbow will allow "mature" hunters to still do EVERYTHING involved with his/her normal archery hunt and keep hunters active in the archery woods longer. I am not sure about WI but there has been a trend nation wide away from hunting. License sales have dropped in many states. Could this keep some older hunters in the woods longer & bring some retired hunters back? I know first hand of some hunters here in Pennsylvania ( over 50yrs old) who hung up their archery equipment were drawn back into season last year with the first year of crossbow inclusion here in Pennsylvnia. 41.2% of Wisconsin hunters would accept crossbows in season is great news! I would hope this is something your legislators review! Thanks for the info!!....TICK-TICK-TICK


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## Rancid Crabtree

Yes, having about 60% of the hunters oppose crossbows has been related to policy makers. Thankfully we have no problems with retention and our bowhunters numbers are still near record amounts. That is because nobody in WI is excluded from the archery deer season. The elderly and the handicapped already have the ablity to use a crossbow. Our laws are proper and work well. Right now, the failing deer heard and predation are at the front of the list of concerns. Adding more hunters and more weapons to kill more deer is not supported by the majority. :wink:


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## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, having about 60% of the hunters oppose crossbows has been related to policy makers. Thankfully we have no problems with retention and our bowhunters numbers are still near record amounts. That is because nobody in WI is excluded from the archery deer season. The elderly and the handicapped already have the ablity to use a crossbow. Our laws are proper and work well. Right now, the failing deer heard and predation are at the front of the list of concerns. Adding more hunters and more weapons to kill more deer is not supported by the majority. :wink:


40% support for a weapon that is not currently legal for all to use is a substantal amount of hunters. That is a great starting point. No wonder you feel the need to spend WBH funds on a political lobbyist and all your trips! 41.2% FOR CROSSBOW INCLUSION!!! WOW.....Have the HUNTING license sales in Wisconsin increased recently? Has there been ANY decline in sales? I am questioning over all not just bow sales? Crossbow inclusion does not necessarily mean more deer harvested. In Pennsylvania's first year of crossbow inclusion the overall deer harvest declined. The archery harvest went up minimaly. The preception by the anti's that the deer herd would suddenly be decimated & the woods will be over run with hunters is just not true. More misinformation? I'll stick to the 41.2% of the WI hunters support crossbows and go from there! That is an eye opener! Keep the good info coming.....*41.2% TICK-TICK-TICK*


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## Redclub

Rancid very good info, we all know the deer herd is way down, What p----s me off is why the dnr wants to get herd way down in the Northern Co. that are not closed to doe shooting, some units have 3500 doe permits and there are just not the deer there. Crossbows will not hurt the deer herd only shooting does will do that. Let the x-bows in for 55 and older. DON'T shoot the does. X-Bows didn't get us in this mess and excluding them will not get us out. WBH I believe even has a doe contest???????
Redclub


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## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> 40% support for a weapon that is not currently legal for all to use is a substantal amount of hunters. That is a great starting point. No wonder you feel the need to spend WBH funds on a political lobbyist and all your trips! 41.2% FOR CROSSBOW INCLUSION!!! WOW.....


Yes, its the minority. 60% opposed is the majority :wink:




Tim50 said:


> Have the HUNTING license sales in Wisconsin increased recently? Has there been ANY decline in sales? I am questioning over all not just bow sales?


I don't have (and have not seen) final 2009 archery deer tag sales numbers but 2008 archery tag sales were only 300 off the all time record high. Our bowhunter numbers are strong. Our tag sales are being driven by the current depeleted deer herd. People are organizing land closure groups and not hunting as a way of protesting deer management and to help rebuild the herd. Gun deer license sales dipped as a result of these land closures and protests but the drop amounted to about 3%. The number eb and flow based on the poulation and regulations.




Tim50 said:


> Crossbow inclusion does not necessarily mean more deer harvested.


Perhaps they buy a crossbow but don't use them? :wink: I wonder why it is that the pro-xbow side always promotes that adding crossbows will help states that have an over population of deer and if only xbows were added that crossbows would help reduce the herd. Which is it? They also say that adding crossbows will add hunters and help with recruitment yet when those terms don't help your argument, you flop. :wink: 




Tim50 said:


> In Pennsylvania's first year of crossbow inclusion the overall deer harvest declined. The archery harvest went up minimaly.


We are talking archery deer harvest rather than overall. You say the archery harvest went up in PA arfter crossbows were added. That is not something gun hunters or bowhunters in WI are looking to do right now. We are closing portions of the state to antlerless harvest to rebuild the herd.

Perhaps at some point in the future, if WI has a deer overpopulation problem or if bowhunter numbers drop or if the majority of hunters someday wants crossbows, then perhaps something might change. Right now, not so much.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub said:


> Rancid very good info, we all know the deer herd is way down, What p----s me off is why the dnr wants to get herd way down in the Northern Co. that are not closed to doe shooting,


Yes, that is the rub. hunters are closing their lands and boycotting not only deer hunting but also turkey hunting and even closing snowmobile trails as a way to stick it to the DNR out of frustration with DNR deer management.




Redclub said:


> some units have 3500 doe permits and there are just not the deer there.


Again, the DNr is still of the opinion that they want to drive the population down even more. This will only serve to anger even more hunters. A recent study about this was done and well worth reading to those that seem interested in WI hunting issues. It's an eye opener.

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/Wildlife/faculty/Holsman/DNR Credibility Report_Holsman 2009.pdf




Redclub said:


> Crossbows will not hurt the deer herd only shooting does will do that.



So your saying to allow crossbows for only buck hunting?




Redclub said:


> Let the x-bows in for 55 and older.


At some point that may be discussed but work is already being conducted on our part to determine just how that would work. Always watchful, alway vigillant and thinking of the future.:wink:




Redclub said:


> X-Bows didn't get us in this mess and excluding them will not get us out.


That was just silly. Allowing them most certainly won't get us out of this.




Redclub said:


> WBH I believe even has a doe contest???????


You believe wrong.


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## Tim50

To the hunters of Pennsylvania & many other states crossbows are just another OPTION for archery season. The hunters I know switch back & forth between their vertical bow & their crossbow. Depending on weather, stand location and what suits you that day. A deer harvested with any of the three weapons still only counts as one harvest! 

Let the x-bows in for 55 and older. 

At some point that may be discussed but work is already being conducted on *our part to determine just how that would work*.

There in lies the rub. who are you & your small special interest organization to determine "what will work"...This should be handled by the WDNR hopefully using facts they have gathered not by a emotional group speaking for less than 3% of the WI hunters that has an anti crossbow personal agenda. Remember *facts & the truth*!! ( I know this concept is NEW to you but it will grow on you!!)................*41.2%..TICK-TICK-TICK*


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## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> To the hunters of Pennsylvania & many other states crossbows are just another OPTION for archery season. The hunters I know switch back & forth between their vertical bow & their crossbow. Depending on weather, stand location and what suits you that day. A deer harvested with any of the three weapons still only counts as one harvest!


That's wonderful for PA. If that is what the majority of the sportsmen in that state say is the right thing, then hooray for them. 



Tim50 said:


> Let the x-bows in for 55 and older.
> 
> At some point that may be discussed but work is already being conducted on *our part to determine just how that would work*.
> 
> There in lies the rub. who are you & your small special interest organization to determine "what will work"...This should be handled by the WDNR hopefully using facts they have gathered not by a emotional group speaking for less than 3% of the WI hunters that has an anti crossbow personal agenda. Remember facts & the truth!! ( I know this concept is NEW to you but it will grow on you!!)


You really still do not understand WI. You have come to the right place. This is NOT A WI DNR ISSUE. I have spoke with the DNR's head deer biologist about this on numerous occasions. He said the WI DNR stays out of this issue because it's not a biological matter. This a public opinion matter. The DNR does NOT determine what weapons are legal in the archery deer season. They simply enforce the laws. This matter is and always has been the job of the legislature. (you know, the place where lobbyists hang out) WI is unique in that it has what's called the "Conservation Congress" to gather public opinion on these issues. (you would like to know who is on the Conservation Congress ) If this sort of concept survives the Conservation Congress process, our states Natural Resources Board will determine whether or not they support the concept. If they support the concept, it ends there unless a legislator takes up the issue and drafts a bill. If not, it dies. If a legislator picks up the idea and drafts a bill he still needs co-sponsors and he needs to pass it in the Assembly natural resources committee and the Senate NR committee. If it does, it needs to survive a full vote of both houses. It would then need to be approved (signed) by the Governor. He has the ability to veto the whole thing. 

That is why its wise to hire a governmental relations persons to work on issue advocacy for (or against) an issue. As I said. Some things are too important to be left to chance. That is why many many orgs enlist a lobbyist.

I have no doubt, this matter will be taken up in the next session but prior to that, we will have an election for governor. Our current Gov. is not running again so we will have a new guy in Nov. I recently spent some time with the front runners from both parties. I interviewed both of them back in June for the upcoming WBH magazine. Did you know (of course you didn't) that the front runner is a Bowhunter? He hunts with a Matthews bow. He will select a new Sec. of the DNR as well as 3 new members of the 7 member Natural Resources Board. As I said. Important things ought not be left to random chance . Always watchful, always vigilant, never resting, always preparing for whatever the future brings.

I'm just thankful that I have the time to volunteer to important causes on behalf of the members.


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## Tim50

> This is NOT A WI DNR ISSUE. I have spoke with the DNR's head deer biologist about this on numerous occasions. He said the WI DNR stays out of this issue because *it's not a biological matter*. *This a public opinion matter.*





> Not to mention the many times I explained the *dire straits our herd **is in and why adding crossbows to the archery season would put added strain on the resource,* tagging and season length. That is the basis for my side of this debate.


Speaking out of both sides of your mouth.....AGAIN???

So your DNR is not concerned about the fabricated stories you made up about the doom & gloom to the herd because of the crossbow? Good for them! Yours is the only state to understand that crossbow inclusion will not effect the herd! And they understand that crossbow inclusion is more of a personal agenda item. This is great for the crossbow community. Crossbows are becoming more accepted as each day goes by! So if your DNR "really" feels this is a social issue the crossbow community is only 8.9% from inclusion. The moment one of these surveys come back with crossbow acceptance at 50% it will be a done deal. :thumbs_up *41.2% and moving up!!!...TICK-TICK-TICK*

That is IF what you said it true!!! What are the odds???


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## Rancid Crabtree

Yes, only a matter of time. (and a few others things) :wink:

4 years from now, the DNR will conduct this poll again. Perhaps it will be 42%. 8 years from now, who knows.

By the way, if all this were being done by the pro-xbow crowd, you would be applauding them for their clever strategizing and advocating something you support. (in WI we call that "Selective indignation") 

We know the new WI crossbow federation is engaging in very low level lobbying at the district rep. level but have not registered with the state or hired a lobbyist (it's legal for them to do that) Never underestimate your opponent. Even though I always wake up before my alarm, I still set it anyway. Its the same reason people buy insurance. They like to be prepared for the future in case something comes up. Because 80% of WBH members oppose full intrusion and 60% of non-affiliated bowhunters oppose it, does not mean we can rest or that we should sit back without preparing for any and all scenarios. Nobody likes surprises.


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## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> By the way, if all this were being done by the pro-xbow crowd, you would be applauding them for their clever strategizing and advocating something you support. (in WI we call that "Selective indignation")



I have faith in the crossbow community that they would not fight fellow hunters or try to exclude them from the woods for selfish reasons & personal agenda's! I would also trust the crossbow supporters to debate with facts and not misinformation and lies! There in lies the difference between us. We debate with truth & facts and let people make an educated decision You on the other hand debate with lies & misinformation knowingly decieving fellow hunters & in your case legislators knowing the truth is your worst enemy! The only "indignation" is how a one proud organizatiin like the WBH has stooped to these levels. Like fellow Pennsylvanian Ben Franklin used to say " if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas"!!


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## Bloodbath

Why is someone from PA so worried about what we do in Wisconsin? Do you hunt here? Own property here? Pay taxes here?


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## missedabiggun

Maybe the same reason why two people from Wisconsin couldn't stay out of a thread about crossbows in PA.....you know, Pennsylvania...one of the states that didn't sell out to the HSUS...unlike yours....

enjoy your veggies


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## Bloodbath

I didn't jump in on that board until Wisconsin became the topic. I never once mentioned any other state besides the one I live in. I could care less what happens in any other state that I don't live or hunt in.

And the state didn't align itself with the HSUS, our idiots that run the WDNR did. I'm ashamed of that. Very embarassing.


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## missedabiggun

I'm glad you're concerned with what's happening in your state. You should be....


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## Bloodbath

I have been for years. The herd in my hunting areas have been in a steady decline for far to many years. That is the basis for my opposition to full xbow inclusion. The aren't neccessary.


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## Jim C

missedabiggun said:


> Maybe the same reason why two people from Wisconsin couldn't stay out of a thread about crossbows in PA.....you know, Pennsylvania...one of the states that didn't sell out to the HSUS...unlike yours....
> 
> enjoy your veggies


we got ours-screw everyone else tends to be the attitude of the excluders.

I always wondered what would happen if some Compound bow maker came along and mounted a madison avenue advertising campaign aimed at gun hunters and suddenly there were a ton of new bowhunters "competiing" with the "we got ours" crowd. What would they do?

all the opposition to crossbows has nothing to do with how crossbows shoot. It is due to the fact that crossbow legalization will bring alot more people into the archery season. I think that is good. others think its bad. But all the ranting about crossbows is a facade for the real reason


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## Bloodbath

Jim C said:


> we got ours-screw everyone else tends to be the attitude of the excluders.
> 
> I always wondered what would happen if some Compound bow maker came along and mounted a madison avenue advertising campaign aimed at gun hunters and suddenly there were a ton of new bowhunters "competiing" with the "we got ours" crowd. What would they do?
> 
> all the opposition to crossbows has nothing to do with how crossbows shoot. It is due to the fact that crossbow legalization will bring alot more people into the archery season. I think that is good. others think its bad. But all the ranting about crossbows is a facade for the real reason


Ok, I'll ask again. Who is excluded from participating in Wisconsin's archery season. You keep calling us excluders, yet you fail to show us anyone who is being excluded from archery hunting in our state. Sounds like someone wants what they want, reguardless of the wishes if the majority of hunters or what is best for the resource. Name one person that is excluded in Wisconsin.


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> Ok, I'll ask again. Who is excluded from participating in Wisconsin's archery season. You keep calling us excluders, yet you fail to show us anyone who is being excluded from archery hunting in our state. Sounds like someone wants what they want, reguardless of the wishes if the majority of hunters or what is best for the resource. Name one person that is excluded in Wisconsin.


people who want to use another kind of bow. There is no rational reason to exclude them. You do so because you don't want anyone else in the woods and you CORRECTLY note that legalizing xbows will mean more people are going to start bowhunting.

If every single person in your state wanted to bowhunt what would you do? ban compounds because that would eliminate most of the competition?

lets end the facade and the false reasons. Xbows are bashed ONLY because they allow some to bowhunt who would not if they are not legal--which is exactly the same thing as compounds. If crossbows had been legal when bow seasons were created-I wonder if crossbow archers would be trying to prevent the training wheels from getting in?

I have been around along time. The same arguments you direct at xbows were exactly the same arguments that were directed at compound bows 40 years ago. same exact arguments.

and it was all based on greed and the pathetic notion that one person's hunting experience is cheapened if someone else hunts with a bow that takes less time to master.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> people who want to use another kind of bow.


Well their in luck then. They have 3 choices to pick from. The elderly and impared get use a crossbow in the archery deer season. See. nobody is excluded. Everybody is happy.

The rest of your post completely misses the point. Thank goodness your opinon counts for zip in the dairy state. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Bloodbath

Jim C said:


> people who want to use another kind of bow. There is no rational reason to exclude them. You do so because you don't want anyone else in the woods and you CORRECTLY note that legalizing xbows will mean more people are going to start bowhunting.
> 
> If every single person in your state wanted to bowhunt what would you do? ban compounds because that would eliminate most of the competition?
> 
> lets end the facade and the false reasons. Xbows are bashed ONLY because they allow some to bowhunt who would not if they are not legal--which is exactly the same thing as compounds. If crossbows had been legal when bow seasons were created-I wonder if crossbow archers would be trying to prevent the training wheels from getting in?
> 
> I have been around along time. The same arguments you direct at xbows were exactly the same arguments that were directed at compound bows 40 years ago. same exact arguments.
> 
> and it was all based on greed and the pathetic notion that one person's hunting experience is cheapened if someone else hunts with a bow that takes less time to master.


You assume far to much.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Well their in luck then. They have 3 choices to pick from. The elderly and impared get use a crossbow in the archery deer season. See. nobody is excluded. Everybody is happy.
> 
> The rest of your post completely misses the point. Thank goodness your opinon counts for zip in the dairy state. :lol: :lol:


keep telling yourself that. I have written legislators of several states. Being the personal coach of the current #1 crossbow archer in the world as well as having coached several national recurve target champions =all wholesome kids who make top grades etc==I tend to get plenty of respect. I also can speak from a position of expertise about the various bows. 

BTW we all know why you argue against crossbows. It has nothing to do with the bow but its rather hard for you to attack those who want to use the bow so you claim the crossbow is "unfair".

its all an act.


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> You assume far to much.


not at all. I have been involved in this matter for almost 35 years. I have seen every argument and I realize when someone is making an honest point or is using a facade as a pretext for a less wholesome motive. The only arguments against crossbows that are actually motivating people are

1) greed-the we don't want more people in the woods 

2) the pathetic belief that someone else hunting with a crossbow somehow cheapens "real bowhunters"

I agree with you anti xbow types. We both realize legalizing crossbows will incease the number of people buying archery season licenses or hunting in bow season. I find that GOOD, you think that is bad

why do you all spend so much time trying to divert the issue by trying to prove xbows are so different and unfair when what you really are arguing against is more people bowhunting?


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## awshucks

Hey Rancid! I was here w/ intro of the 'Stryker'. 405 fps, about 13 lbs @ $1300, I even shot one, met a 14 yr old gal in Tx w/ a rich Daddy. It's gone the way of the Edsel.

I suspect the TAC 15 will get parked in the same lot.


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## Rancid Crabtree

OK, so now that you have had an opportunity to take in the first lesson plan from this educational series titled "Wisconsin, Why Crossbows are not supported", It's time for a pop quiz.

1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.

2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (and most important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow? 

3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)

5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question. :nono:

Now a multiple choice question.

6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below) :nono:

(A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year 

(B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.

(C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?. 

This is a 6 point quiz. For extra credit, You can supply a short (50 word) essay on why anybody in WI would give a rat's behind what somebody in another state thinks about our laws? 

After you turn in your test answers, you will be graded and we can move onto the next section of the WI educational series. :icon_salut:


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## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> I have been for years. The herd in my hunting areas have been in a steady decline for far to many years. *That is the basis for my opposition to full xbow inclusion. *The aren't neccessary.


According to Rancid this is the WDNR's position on crossbows:



> You really still do not understand WI. You have come to the right place. This is NOT A WI DNR ISSUE. I have spoke with the DNR's head deer biologist about this on numerous occasions. *He said the WI DNR stays out of this issue because it's not a biological matter. This a public opinion matter*.


So you see according to the WBH and their paid lobbyist and the WDNR crossbows are a social issue so their impact, if any, is not a concern of the WDNR. And you know this is true & factual because Rancid said so!


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## Jim C

Tim50 said:


> According to Rancid this is the WDNR's position on crossbows:
> 
> 
> 
> So you see according to the WBH and their paid lobbyist and the WDNR crossbows are a social issue so their impact, if any, is not a concern of the WDNR. And you know this is true & factual because Rancid said so!


they cannot refute my posts. we all know why they want to keep crossbows out

it comes down to two things

1) they don't want anymore people hunting deer during archery seasons

2) they have some belief that their status as "doing it the hard way" (LOL with a compound no less) is going to be diminshed because someone else uses a crossbow.

I have studied the psychology of the antis for almost 4 decades. It always comes down to one of the two above

as to why xbows are illegal for hunting? because of lies and disinformation


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## Bloodbath

Ok, I see why the last thread got shut down. Some of you fellas get way to worked up over this. We Wisconsin residents will decide whats best for our archery seasons. Not out of staters. I'm out. These debates get pretty redundant and personal. I'd much rather talk bows and have fun. See ya around the forums guys.:smile:


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## Rancid Crabtree

Bloodbath said:


> Ok, I see why the last thread got shut down. Some of you fellas get way to worked up over this. We Wisconsin residents will decide whats best for our archery seasons. Not out of staters. I'm out. These debates get pretty redundant and personal. I'd much rather talk bows and have fun. See ya around the forums guys.:smile:



:amen: Brotha, :amen: :angel4:

The misplaced rage and hostility is non-the-less entertaining.  

You guys still have a test to take.


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## xbow1

Jim C said:


> they cannot refute my posts. we all know why they want to keep crossbows out
> 
> it comes down to two things
> 
> 1) they don't want anymore people hunting deer during archery seasons
> 
> 2) they have some belief that their status as "doing it the hard way" (LOL with a compound no less) is going to be diminshed because someone else uses a crossbow.
> 
> I have studied the psychology of the antis for almost 4 decades. It always comes down to one of the two above
> 
> as to why xbows are illegal for hunting? because of lies and disinformation


Jim C is dead nuts on!!!

It's only a matter time before crossbows are uniformly accepted across North America. Why a single state or province believes they can *hold out* is beyond me. It will be important after the fact to remember each and every anti that held it back.

They need to be remembered for who they REALLY are...ANTI-HUNTERS!


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## rattus58

It is interesting that guys like crabby don't feel crossbows are necessary. That alone puts him as an elitist and discredits his opinion as being open, honest, and unbiased.

I have a biased opinion about crossbows too, but mine is based upon one question. Is a crossbow a bow or something else.










Some of our instructors have this liberty bow and also crossbows. The arguments of movement and draw with this liberty (which we've been able to demonstrate very minimal movement compared to a crossbow for example) is not even a credible argument for or against crossbows, but one that they use constantly for some reason, is negated anyway with the liberty.

A crossbow has all the pieces of a bow and therefore there is no other criteria really necessary to compare.

Elitism has no place in the hunting community, period.

Oh.... and notice the "being held by hand" part.

Aloha... :beer:


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## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> It is interesting that guys like crabby don't feel crossbows are necessary.


As per usual, you are mistaken unless you forgot the many times I have stated that the crossbow is indeed necessary if the handicapped and elderly are to partisipate on par with a bowhunter or to enjoy the WI archery season. Thats what makes WI so great. Nobody is excluded from bowhunting. Even non residents can come to WI and if Handicapped or over 65, can bring their crossbows and use them in the archery deer season. This year, we even removed the 3 day wait restriction meaning you can buy a tag over the counter and hunt the same day. Talk about an inclusive state. :smile:

That is a great looking bow. Just some questions. If he sets the max weight at 70 pounds, how many pounds does he have to draw back in order to get to full draw?

Does he have to draw and hold the bow by only human power? 

If so, bring with you to WI. Now, it's clear that you have not read the required reading material in the educational series titled "Wisconsin, why crossbow are not supported" because you keep focusing on the weapon rather than the deer herd and opinions of WI residents. Your going to want to read the course material on why crossbows are not supported by the majority. Your going to want to do that before you take the quiz.

My concern is that the most vocal will shy away from the quiz for some very obvious reasons. 

Don't be afraid, The truth will set you free.:thumbs_up


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## Jim C

ever notice the following

1) the antis never can make an objective claim of harm

2) the antis never are willing to tell us their true motivations

3) if crossbows should be limited to the disabled why should abled bodied people use compounds when the inventor of that device intended it to be used by a disabled individual

4) why so many lies are used by the anti xbow movement. 

The real issue is that they don't want more people hunting. They never will answer the question of what they would do if some new compound came along that-due to some effective marketing-led to thousands more hunting.

The bottom line is that the antis are greedy but they cannot publicly admit their real reasons

so we see all these amusing evasions, dishonesty, refusals to answer questions directly, and changing arguments why xbows are somehow unfair (to greedy people I suppose)


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

As the instructor of this lesson plan, I think it important to explain some things. The course material needs to be read if your going to advance. All of the self evident truths contained above will be of great help to you. Ignoring the truth will leave you in your current state of lacking. This is only going to prevent you from finally grasping WI opinions and laws.

Secondly, to the many that are coming up on the short end of this lecture series. you will want to know that the obvious indicator that you are unarmed here are the many failed attempts at insults and name calling. You need to understand that in order for name calling and insults to be effective, the person you hope to insult would have to place some sort of value on or have some respect for your opinion and that is indeed not the case here. If your coming up on the short end or are out of points to make, by all means, fall back on name calling but you need to understand, it exposes you as being intellectually unarmed and wastes perfectly good key strokes. 

Now, lets get to taking the quiz. It counts for half your grade. Clearly you have a passion for WI. Here is your chance to have a practical application for the subject matter. Dont fear answering the questions.


----------



## Jim C

still waiting for an honest answer. Sorry Rancid, you have nothing to teach me. I was in archery long before you were.


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## Rancid Crabtree

JimC, You came to the WI thread to get an education. You know the resson for the thread. Don't live in fear. Here are the questions again. If you can't do it just say so and I can set about ignoring you.


so now that you have had an opportunity to take in the first lesson plan from this educational series titled "Wisconsin, Why Crossbows are not supported", It's time for a pop quiz.

1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.

2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (and most important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow? 

3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)

5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question. :nono:

Now a multiple choice question.

6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below) :nono:

(A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year 

(B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.

(C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?. 

This is a 6 point quiz. For extra credit, You can supply a short (50 word) essay on why anybody in WI would give a rat's behind what somebody in another state thinks about our laws? 

After you turn in your test answers, you will be graded and we can move onto the next section of the WI educational series. :icon_salut:


----------



## Jim C

I am laughing at your quiz. You won't answer a question of mine honestly.

Let me edify you about something. I am a trial attorney. Cross examining hostile witnesses in court and in depositions is my specialty. And I never EVER ask someone a question that I do not already know the answer to.

SO when you refuse to answer my questions It merely confirms what I know is already true

crossbows were banned due to lies, misinformation and propaganda.

crossbows were banned when compounds were legalized due to lies, misinformation and propaganda.

yet despite all the lies, misinformation and propaganda, crossbows are being allowed into a season they should have been included in from the start constantly

your side is losing. In the future, the goal is to ban people who tried to exclude others as payback


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

So sorry bud but if you refuse to answer the questions, your never going to pass this course. WI is where it is in regards to it's hunting laws for some very good reasons. While you are powerless to effect any change here, I thought you entered this thread to at least gain an education. It would appear you only hope to disrupt the rest of the class. Your fear of the questions is telling but all you have to do is say, "I don't know" 

I think your actually getting it but too proud to admit it. That's cool. I think you understand now that nobody is excluded from Bowhunting in WI. Even the non-res folks like yourself can enjoy our great state. 

Don't fear the questions. Give it a try. ;-)


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> So sorry bud but if you refuse to answer the questions, your never going to pass this course. WI is where it is in regards to it's hunting laws for some very good reasons. While you are powerless to effect any change here, I thought you entered this thread to at least gain an education. It would appear you only hope to disrupt the rest of the class. Your fear of the questions is telling but all you have to do is say, "I don't know"
> 
> I think your actually getting it but too proud to admit it. That's cool. I think you understand now that nobody is excluded from Bowhunting in WI. Even the non-res folks like yourself can enjoy our great state.
> 
> Don't fear the questions. Give it a try. ;-)


"your actually"

it is YOu're actually

how can one be a professor when one flunks grammar 101

I entered this thread to demonstrate what motivates the anti crossbow propagandists.

you do serve as a most useful exhibit in my demonstration


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> As per usual, you are mistaken unless you forgot the many times I have stated that the crossbow is indeed necessary if the handicapped and elderly are to partisipate on par with a bowhunter or to enjoy the WI archery season. Thats what makes WI so great. Nobody is excluded from bowhunting. Even non residents can come to WI and if Handicapped or over 65, can bring their crossbows and use them in the archery deer season. This year, we even removed the 3 day wait restriction meaning you can buy a tag over the counter and hunt the same day. Talk about an inclusive state. :smile:
> 
> That is a great looking bow. Just some questions. If he sets the max weight at 70 pounds, how many pounds does he have to draw back in order to get to full draw?
> 
> Does he have to draw and hold the bow by only human power?
> 
> If so, bring with you to WI. Now, it's clear that you have not read the required reading material in the educational series titled "Wisconsin, why crossbow are not supported" because you keep focusing on the weapon rather than the deer herd and opinions of WI residents. Your going to want to read the course material on why crossbows are not supported by the majority. Your going to want to do that before you take the quiz.
> 
> My concern is that the most vocal will shy away from the quiz for some very obvious reasons.
> 
> Don't be afraid, The truth will set you free.:thumbs_up


It IS the weapon and not the DEER HERD that matters. What is the point of the quiz? If it doesn't focus on the relevant, why WASTE MY TIME? The issue of crossbows has everything to do with the equipment. A bow is a bow.

Aloha.. :beer:


----------



## marbowNC

Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard , A bow is a bow , LOL !! A crowsbow IS NOT A BOW . The only thing a crossbow and a trad. bow or compound has in common is the limbs , thats IT !!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

JimC, I don't know if you're a poker player or not but do you know what a "tell" is? If not, see the link. (This is a learning thread after all)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_(poker)

Your failing at this argument. Do you know what the "Tell" was?
It was when you made this post"



> "your actually"
> 
> it is YOu're actually
> 
> how can one be a professor when one flunks grammar 101"[?QUOTE]
> 
> My experience has told me that when the other side is plumb out of arguments, they will focus on the person rather than the ideas. Since day one, you have dealt in nothing but name calling and insults as a way to bolster some very weak arguments. (That was another quick tell that exposed you from day one.)
> 
> This WI education thread has you back peddling and your uncomfortable with that becasue WI laws are what they are for some very good reasons. This matter is pretty cut and dried so your focusing on spelling and grammar (and then included some of your own with two capital letters in the same word) This whole rage thing does not suit you at all.
> 
> I can tell that you're a control freak and this whole WI thing leaves you powerless and very uncomfortable.
> 
> Do yourself a favor. Calm down a bit and then answer the questions in the quiz. I have not given up on you yet. You can be taught.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> I was in archery long before you were.


I'm not sure this was a contest of who got there first but in the continuing theme of educating you, you will want to know I took my first archery trophy in a competition back in 1979 but started with archery in 1974. I started Bowhunting back in 1976. Perhaps you were born by then, who knows. I have been instructing youth via the Boy Scout Archery Merit Badge for several years as well as building bows. While you seem to like to constantly talk about yourself, I tend to let my actions here in WI speak for me. Now you can prattle on about your past but the issue of crossbows in WI won't be affected so lets try and stay on point.

That quiz isn't going to take itself. Lose the fear. You wanted to learn about WI or you wouldn't have showed up for the lesson. Let's see if any of it stuck.


----------



## xbow1

Rancid, Jim C never bluffs. 

How can you belong to the archery organizations you list in your signature and *not* know who Jim C is? 

Bizarre to say the least!


----------



## BigBirdVA

Who it is isn't the point. Every post that gets locked he finds another different but heading to the same old place topic to get it going again. It's the fight he's looking for and needs. Guess by constantly keeping one up and going he feels he's winning. You know he who posts the most wins ! 

This isn't going to be won or lost on the internet. But that's ok the side that's been making headway recently knows how to take this one home.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

xbow1 said:


> Rancid, Jim C never bluffs.
> 
> How can you belong to the archery organizations you list in your signature and *not* know who Jim C is?


Who was talking about bluffing? He is quite transparent indeed. As far as not knowing him. I can think of two reasons. 

1. Unless he is a member and attends the functions of the orgs I list, I can't imagine why I would have cause to know him.

2. They have not invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care.

His boorish , bombastic and narcissistic nature tells me all I need to know. The fits of rage are also very telling. But enough about that. This is a WI lesson. While you are building the courage to take the quiz, lets sally forth with the discussion of Wisconsin's deer herd problems. Here is a piece I wrote after the joint legislative session on the deer herd in April of 2009. My testimony slides follow below. 


"It's a great day at the capital for hunters " 


That is how legislators opened the joint hearing on deer population and hunter's concerns.












In no time, the chamber was filled to overflow status. Both hallways leading to the hearing room were also filled to capacity. I tried to get a picture that shows this but this was the best I could do without a flash. At one point, everyone was notified that the Capital Police said we were in violation of fire codes and that two additional hearing rooms, wired for sound would be opened for anybody not registered to speak. I later visited one of those rooms after testifying and every seat was filled.












There was media set up in every corner that they would fit and then the Senators and Assembly-persons filled in to get the show on the road.






















I was one of the first few to testify and set the stage and hopefully did some good in getting the point across that the Dept. has lost touch with the deer population and that the Insurance industry seems to have a better handle on the population than the Dept.


After I testified, I stepped into the hallway and spent time talking with hunters who thanked me and everyone else for showing up to testify on their behalf. Several requests for my testimony were made. I have attached it to the end of this write-up.


I hung around until 2:45 pm when our bus was scheduled to leave. All in all, it really was a great day for deer hunters in WI. The legislature is listening to our concerns about deer management and SAK and goals. At the very least, this will have effected deer hunting regulations going forward.


Here are the slides from my testimony since you really can't see them very well on Wisconsin eye. I won't go through typing all my oral testimony that went with my slides but I think you will get the point I was trying to make.
































Here is the VMT I got from the WI DOT. We hit the most deer when there were the most deer to hit and not when we drove the most miles. It's pretty clear that in high population years, we killed a lot of deer with bullets and bumpers.








































































Hunters are closing their lands and boycotting license sales until the herd rebounds as a way of protesting management prescriptions. Any talk of additional weapons or people harvesting deer is pretty far down on the list right about now although I contend that right now is a perfect time for somebody to introduce crossbow legislation. Timing is everything. that would kill this for another decade. Hopefully, we can get some out-of-state entities to show up in WI demanding we change our laws. That would be great right about now.


----------



## Jim C

xbow1 said:


> Rancid, Jim C never bluffs.
> 
> How can you belong to the archery organizations you list in your signature and *not* know who Jim C is?
> 
> Bizarre to say the least!


the problem is I know what motivates him and that is why he is so evasive. 

He seems to think that he can convince me that a crossbow is "unfair" to people like him. But that isn't the issue. Hunting is not a competition between you and the guy a mile away from you are 100 yards away from you. The only competition is with yourself. And people who don't understand that will never win.

While I don't claim to be a top level competitive archer any more, I have learned enough from them to know what it takes. I also have coached (among others), a two time WCSA world xbow champion (who also destroyed the NFAA record indoors a few months ago) a former FITA Compound Junior world record holder (25M) and several US Archery and NFAA national target champions from age 12 to age 51. 

SO I know a few things about shooting crossbows (7 Ohio titles contested-7 won), recurve (dozens of state and regional medals as well as a national third) and dozens of 300 NFAA games in compound including several with fingers. I also am married to a fairly decent ladies FITA BB shooter who has a bunch of titles too (and has won state compound, recurve, and crossbow titles). Since the issue is how bows shoot (since that is how Rancid wants to frame it) rather than hunting skills (of which shooting is a wee small part) I certainly would argue I have far far far more knowledge than Rancid does given the issue involves all three bows.

Now the real issue comes down to this. If Crossbows are treated the same as compounds, some people who have not yet hunted during the archery season would begin bowhunting for various reasons. Some people have alot of skill shooting longarms and rightly or wrongly feel they would be more proficient with a crossbow than a compound bow. Other people find crossbows more appealing than compound bows-=maybe they read William about William Tell as a child. And yes, some are busy and rather than take the chance of wounding a deer, they figure they are more ethical hunting with a crossbow.

Its those increased numbers that bother people like Rancid. But they cannot come out and say they are selfish or want to keep as many people out as they can without say knocking the legions of compound archers who really aren't proficient with their weapons (or the trads many of whom do not spend the many hours a week it takes to shoot one as well as say someone who has spent an hour with me learning how to shoot a compound).

So what does Rancid and his like minded fellow travelers do? They whine that crossbows are somehow unfair when able bodied people using them which is a joke because most of them use compounds which were specifically invented for the physically disabled. What they also won't tell you is that deep down they see bowhunting as a religion and anyone who doesn't worship their definition of the bowhunting God is a heretic who insults their religion. They see Crossbow hunters as disrespecting their church because they pretend that they somehow have worked harder and thus deserve a higher place on the hunting pyramid than people who "take the easy way"

its all complete nonsense. Hunting is a recreational activity. Its not a religion and people like rancid are not hurt in any way shape or form if someone new picks up a crossbow rather than a compound.

its such a selfish facade these antis play. But those of us who understand archery know what motivates them and that is why we laugh at the complicated and deceitful machinations the anti-xbow propagandists engage in.

COme on rancid-just say it. Tell us what the SOURCE of your fear and loathing is.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Your still not getting it but continue with the lesson plan and you might. Speaking of that very topic. 

Lets continue with this educational series to help out-staters understand WI hunting and why our laws are what they are. The above legislative hearing was as a result of the 2008 deer season in WI. The 2009 season turned out even worse. It was so bad that many in the legislature stepped in and called for an end to the Dec. antlerless hunt. You can read that press release here. You will see, that they did not ask for additional hunters with crossbows to kill even more deer.

http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/120409Gunderson_Kaufert.pdf

This prompted another hearing on Dec. 17 of 2009. Again we provided testimony. I was able to use some of my material from the last joint session but here are some oral testimony notes.

Below are my testimony notes for today's Joint legislative hearing on deer goals. 
*Deer Population Goals and Good Hunting*

*WI State Statute 29*

*29.014* Rule making for this chapter. (1) The department shall establish and maintain open and closed seasons for fish and game and any bag limits, size limits, rest days and conditions governing the taking of fish and game that will conserve the fish and game supply and ensure the citizens of this state continued opportunities for *good hunting*, fishing and trapping.

The DNR is mandated to manage the deer population to goal. All season structures, quotas and management prescriptions are based on how far the calculated population is from the goal.

Goals are a fixed number. Regardless of what the population goal is, the state cannot manage the population, Set season structure, Set quotas or enact proper management prescriptions unless they are able to determine how far the deer population is from the goal. You cannot balance your checkbook without knowing your starting or current balance. Goal setting is pointless and frustrating if you don't know how far you are from reaching the goal. 

Did this year's deer harvest bring us to goal? The calculated post hunt population tells the Department where the herd is in regards to reaching the goal. Without proper and calibrated tools to gauge the herd in relationship to the goal, managers can neither diagnose the condition nor prescribe seasons to reach that goal next year. While goal setting is important, the ability to verify management practices are getting us there are key. Regardless of what the goal is, if we don't know if we have reached it or passed it, we will be back here again discussing deer herd management.

*1. Determine deer goals for total square miles of area and not square miles of habitat/range.*

Most of the Deer Management units that are habitually over goal are units that have significant areas that are not currently defined as deer habitat. The biological carrying capacity of farmland areas is 80 to 100 deer per sq. mile. The goals are set at 20 to 25 deer per sq. mile or range. This may equate to 10 to 12 deer per square mile of total land area. These goals are set at social carrying capacity yet most farmers and landowners will never reduce the deer down to these low goals. Land owners paying recreational rate property taxes do not consider this good hunting. A simple solution to this would be to establish goals per sq. mi. of total land area like virtually every other state and increase the goals to a level hunters support.

*2. Establish deer population goals at a level capable of sustaining an annual total hunter harvest (all seasons, gun, bow, tribal, crop damage etc.) of 400,000 deer plus the 15% wounding loss and the non-harvest mortality.*

It has been stated by the DNR that at currently established goal, hunters can expect to harvest roughly 270,000 to 290,000 deer. Since 1990 hunters have harvested over 400,000 deer annually except for 4 years including this year which may end up at roughly 300,000 to 320,000. It is clear that this year’s level falls short of what hunters consider good deer hunting. To sustain a harvest of 400,000 deer and account for non-harvest mortalities the over winter goal needs to be at least between 1,000,000 to 1,200,000 deer over winter or just under 25 deer per sq. mi. of total land area, well within the biological carrying capacity of most of the state. For the last 10 years, DNR’s population estimates have been within that range while car deer collisions and crop damage complaints and harvests have declined.










Fawn recruitment and expansion rate










With the Department indicating winters classified as mild in 07 and 08, how can the lowest expansion rate in decades be explained? 

Year ...................................................................................Calculated pre-hunt pop.

1994 (preceded the highest gun buck and car/deer crash year) ...................... 1,383,001

1999 (preceded the 2nd Highest gun buck and car/deer crash year) .................1,662,987

2003 (preceded the expanded use of EAB in 2004) ........................................ 1,663,485

2008 (preceded this year's hunting season)...................................................1,523,800

Population modeling tools calculated the 08 pre-hunt population was larger than 94's and within 8% of 1999 and 2003 while gun buck and car/deer numbers show a 40% decline.

Excerpt of letter from Rep. Hraychuck and Sen. Holperin to DNR Sec. (April 21, 2009)

_" Therefore, it is our recommendation that EAB be suspended indefinitely, except in chronic wasting disease deer management units (DMU). Second, there is widespread skepticism (especially recently) over the Department’s estimates of the statewide deer herd population and, by extension, the deer count in specific DMUs. Consequently, we further recommend that the Sex Age Kill (SAK) census model currently used by the Department be modified in the following ways:

• Implement some, and eventually all, of the modifications to the SAK model recommended by a 2006 audit of the program.

• Incorporate, or give greater weight, to the following factors: predation; car kills; fawn mortality; winter severity; tracks.

• Authorize one or more outside organizations to use a methodology of their choosing to conduct independent deer herd counts in up to 5 DMUs in order to compare the accuracy of SAK to alternate methods.

Finally, we recommend additional Department communication with deer hunters throughout the year, particularly regarding developments which are anticipated to affect deer mortality, movements, herd health or other factors that might impact herd numbers or harvest success." _

By failing to communicate a pre-hunt estimate (for the first time) The Dept. took a step backward in communicating with hunters.

*Recommendations to improve goal reaching and a return to good hunting.*

*1. Bring in outside experts to recalculate current population estimates along with hunter and hunting group involvement to determine if we are properly managing the herd to get to goal*.

To gain credibility with hunters this must be done in a similar fashion to the recently completed bear study. It must be conducted by experts from outside the state and include involvement from the hunting community. It must be ongoing for a period of several years until. With the recent windfall in Pittman Robertson funds available to the state we would hope this project would take precedence over other proposed studies.

*2.Eliminate all additional Herd Control seasons and EAB and return to a 9 day gun season statewide for a period of sufficient duration to allow the SAK formula the needed time to stabilize. This calibration will let managers know what the true population is. *

Two consecutive years of dramatically falling buck harvest indicate populations are far below DNR estimates. The last year the gun season recorded a buck harvest of less than 90,000 deer was in 1980. The statewide post hunt population in 1980 was 565,255 deer. This is 25% below current statewide population goals. SAK calculations require 5 year averages of consistent buck harvest. With inconsistent seasons and Earn-a-Buck accurate population estimates are impossible. The dramatic decline in antlerless harvest in ’09 indicates the deer aren’t there and hunters are electing to forgo venison in the freezer and not shoot the few they see. This also led to the dismal Oct. harvest of 11,000 deer total including the CWD zones where hunters still had to qualify for a buck tag. This year’s Oct. gun harvest was little more than archers harvested during the same 4-day period in ’06 and ’07. CWD units are also managed to goals and the dramatic decline in those units indicates the aerial survey model is also flawed and populations may already be at or below current goals. It is also demonstrated in historical harvest data that hunters can and will shoot adequate numbers of antlerless deer in a 9-day season if the deer are there and adequate tags are issued. 

*3. During this period of re-establishing population modeling tool accuracy and precision, the suggested tool to reduce populations in units still determined to be more than 20% over goal, the Department should Issue free and/or $2 Herd Control tags, including the Public/Private land tag proposal from EAB Alternative rule to minimize the risk of overharvest on public land.*

This provides hunters the tools to harvest antlerless deer where local populations may be abundant without forcing hunters to harvest antlerless deer in areas where local populations may be depleted. It will also limit tags on public land where hunters are less vested and less likely to make the assessment that populations are low. It is continually stated by the DNR that deer are not dispersed equally over the landscape so a one size fits all approach to address a few hot spot areas within a management unit also risks over harvest in many local areas where deer are less abundant. The key component of the record harvests of the last decade was the availability of free antlerless tags. The most successful harvest season was in 2000 when hunters were provided 2 free tags with the purchase of a license. Of the 528,494 deer harvested in the gun seasons just under 90% of them were harvested during the regular 9-day gun season.

*4. Enact the recommended population modeling tool improvements from the 2006 SAK audit*

A study of the buck recovery rate as well as a fawn mortality study should be conducted as a way of improving the robustness and precision of population modeling tools. A study of the effects of hunter attitudes in regards to harvest selection should also be conducted to better understand their effects on the SAK tool.


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## xbow1

Rancid, you're wrong.

There isn't a person on the face of the earth that will ever convince you of that, but you're wrong.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> Now the real issue comes down to this. If Crossbows are treated the same as compounds, some people who have not yet hunted during the archery season would begin bowhunting for various reasons. Some people have alot of skill shooting longarms and rightly or wrongly feel they would be more proficient with a crossbow than a compound bow.
> 
> Its those increased numbers that bother people like Rancid.


Flash forward to today. We now have these studies starting in Jan. of next year. I didn't hear anybody at the Dec. hearing clamoring for crossbows in the archery deer season. Now in 2010, we have 18 units in which both gun and bowhunters are prohibited from harvesting any antlerless deer. Out-of-staters might ask why?

As a result of the greatly reduced deer herd, I was asked by the legislature about the fact that bowhunters and out tags. There was concern over the fact that gun hunters were prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in several units in 2008 but bowhunters were not restricted. I made a promise to the legislature that I would personally (on behalf of WBH) address this matter. In Jan. of 2010, a resolution was brought forward to strip bowhunters of the antlerless tag statewide. *remember crossbows are not part of the picture but there are those that want to reduce the bag for bowhunters using bows*

I worked with the Conservation Congress and the DNR to make this happen and to alert the public of our intentions, in March of this year put out this press release.

http://www.wisconsinbowhunters.org/PDF Documents/WBH press release antlerless.pdf

In June, the NRB honored that request . You can learn more here.

http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/news/article_e76f0e34-e727-5f0d-8def-7eb1570eb1a0.html

During the fall of 2009, there was a push to reduce the archery deer season and move the gun season up into the rut. Gun hunters are not happy with the take of bowhunters (using recurves, longbows and compounds as well as the elderly and handicapped that are allowed to use crossbow) so you can see if you will allow yourself to do so) that reduced bag limits and a shortened archery season has already been suggested without full intrusion of crossbows for all. I think you are now starting to understand why the laws and opinions on crossbows are what they are in WI and since this is a state's rights issue, your outrage and insistence that we change our laws means less than squat. Will there be crossbow legislation in the nest session? (I hope so) The time is right to kill this idea.

This concludes part 2 of the educational series called, "Wisconsin, why crossbows are not supported by the majority"

*Since nobody has yet to have the stones to take the quiz, I will post it again. perhaps the fear has subsided in at least one of the out of staters.*
so now that you have had an opportunity to take in the 2nd lesson plan from this educational series titled "Wisconsin, Why Crossbows are not supported", It's time for that quiz.

1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.

2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (and most important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow? 

3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)

5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question. :nono:

Now a multiple choice question.

6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below) :nono:

(A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year 

(B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.

(C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?. 

This is a 6 point quiz. For extra credit, You can supply a short (50 word) essay on why anybody in WI would give a rat's behind what somebody in another state thinks about our laws?

*Don't fear the answers. Since I know the answers and you are afraid to admit you do to, your refusal to partake exposes the poor footing on that shakey foundation in which you stand.*


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## Jim C

how about some new posts rather than repeating a silly quiz that has no relevance to what really motivates the anti xbow crowd.

you see in states where there are plenty of deer we hear the same propaganda


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## Jim C

If some new advertising strategy caused ten thousand more wisconsin residents to take up bowhunting with compounds what do you think Rancid's approach would be

EVER THING HE COMPLAINS ABOUT WOULD come to fruition with 10,000 more compound hunters. So what would he do>? attack them?


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## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> If some new advertising strategy caused ten thousand more wisconsin residents to take up bowhunting with compounds what do you think Rancid's approach would be
> 
> EVER THING HE COMPLAINS ABOUT WOULD come to fruition with 10,000 more compound hunters. So what would he do>? attack them?


There are several pages of new lesson plan material for you to become educated by. Take the time to read it so can keep up with the subject matter. It will help you understand the state you wish would change. As far as 10,000 additional bowhunters, at this fragile stage, that would be of concern but I think MI saw a jump of 45,000 crossbow permits in the first year. That is the most recent and viable number we have to go on for a state that allowed crossbow and it wasn't even for the entire state. That is huge and a cause for concern. 

If you had read the lesson plan (it would cause you to consider the faults in your argument) you would know that there have been calls to remove bowhunters tags and shorten the archery season and that's without adding crossbows. Logic not only suggests but insists that a large influx of additional people harvesting deer in the archery deer season would exacerbate the situation and hasten the negative effects on the archery deer season . This would be of no concern to you so long as crossbows would be made legal but we here in the dairy state don't like to leave things to chance so we have been very engaged in this matter. We have a fiduciary responsibility to our members and their opinions on this are what direct our actions. To do otherwise would be at our own peril. 

You won't take the quiz because you won't come out very good as a result of giving honest answers. We all get that. Thankfully policy makers in WI don't have the option to ignore the facts. You want to make this about personalities and you hope that name calling will bolster a very argument. Lawmakers are far better than that. They have to consider the consequences and effects. You want so desperately for our laws to change but you have no desire to learn about the situation. The word myopic comes to mind.

By the by, I know you are a stickler for proper punctuation and grammar and such so you will want to read the portion of your post that I quoted as a way to reflect on the whole glass house and throwing stone cliché :wink:


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## Jim C

all taxpaying citizens of a state should be treated equally. if the herd can only support 10,000 hunters and 100K want to hunt then a lottery is the only fair thing to do. Trying to cut down on those numbers by discrimination against those who want to use crossbows is pathetic and selfish.


and I am still waiting for something that is educational.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> all taxpaying citizens of a state should be treated equally.


And in WI they are. Nobody is excluded from Bowhunting in our state. Equal accommodations for all including the elderly and handicapped. That self evident truth cannot be disputed.



Jim C said:


> if the herd can only support 10,000 hunters and 100K want to hunt then a lottery is the only fair thing to do.


No need for such measures. Every person that wishes to hunt deer in WI with a gun or bow can purchase a license and do so. There are however limits. There are legal weapons allowed by law that are more than capable of controlling game populations, negating the need for additions. Changing the laws to add additional weapons is unnecessary since nobody is excluded from bowhunting and since the legal definition of a bow was not compromised when compounds were added, there was no need for changes to the statutes or administrative code. Recently there was a desire by a small group that wanted to have the atlatl (hand thrown spear) added to the list of allowable weapons for small game hunting. That request was denied by the NRB. I'm sure a legislator could take up that measure and perhaps pass such a law but legislators are not rushing to do so.



Jim C said:


> Trying to cut down on those numbers by discrimination against those who want to use crossbows is pathetic and selfish.


You would like to think so but you would be incorrect. Despite your name calling and insults (remember our discussion about this and how it proves your argument can't stand on its own in the arena of ideas if you have to resort to name calling and insults? Use constructive debate rather than attacks. Know that every time, you or Tim50 or the others use insults and name calling to lash out that I am even more convinced that my points are hitting home requiring you to use a primal defense mechanism ) In order to claim discrimination, you would need to prove someone is prevented from Bowhunting and since no such condition exists, it's just puffery. Likewise, anybody that wishes to own a crossbow and use it for recreational archery is allowed to do so. 

Your claim is akin to claiming that able bodied citizens who want to park in a handicapped parking stall are discriminated against by being prevented from parking there. There exists no legal right to park in a handicapped stall for the able bodied nor is there a legal right for a non-handicapped person or one younger than 65 to hunt with a crossbow in WI. Both accommodations are allowed only by special permit. You may want to study the laws a bit more. 



Jim C said:


> and I am still waiting for something that is educational.


You edification is coming along quite nicely. As I stated earlier, You will not admit when you have been proven wrong nor will you admit when you have been properly educated. It obviously part of your nature. You do not need to say it because I can see it and know it to be so. Anyone that reads the entirety of this thread is no longer ignorant of the situation in WI and they now have a better understanding of why there is not majority support among hunters for full inclusion of crossbows. Your refusal to answer the quiz questions makes my point for me.

Bowhunter numbers are strong and at near record levels here. If they change, it's a result of boycots and land closures from frustrated hunters opting out. The additional herd reduction used as an argument for crossbows in other states falls flat on its backside in WI. There is no discrimination of hunters and the majority of hunters oppose crossbows for all in what is a state's rights issue. This is pretty cut and dried. 

You're a proud guy. A bit stubborn and myopic (forgive me, I mean no insult) but despite whether or not you will admit it, We both know you now have a better understanding of why things are the way they are in WI. Our lawmakers live it and breath it and have a great understanding of the situation. (rest assured that is the case) Your very foundation is based on your belief system that tells you that crossbows are always the right answer for every state and that foundation has just been rocked to the core. I understand that and your lashing out. You hate that a state has valid and legitimate reasons for rejecting changes to our crossbow laws.

I would encourage you and any other out-of-stater to rush to WI and insist......... No, DEMAND in the strongest possible terms that we change our laws. Hopefully the ACF will come in from MN and make such a push. The timing is perfect. Will there be changes to WI crossbows laws in the coming session? I'm certain of it and they will be done properly. There are places for crossbows in WI. The WBH does not oppose crossbows per say. The public and our membership opposes them in the archery deer season. We have that right.


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## awshucks

> Originally Posted by Jim C View Post
> and I am still waiting for something that is educational.


Try this. Of Wi deer habitat, 85% is privately owned. They've screwed their own pooch.

Got any bow company interests or stocks Rancd?


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## BigBirdVA

The test is a quite a joke. Question 3 asks who is excluded since there are no laws against xbows. Question 1 says they have been illegal since you started archery season. So which is it? 

The multiple choice - pick an answer from what *you *consider to be the answers. The actual and correct answer isn't in the possible choices. 

You know we have a ton of deer here and yet we've had harvest numbers go up and down for no apparent reason. Since you're obviously looking at all of it from the "World According to Rancid" viewpoint you're missing other obvious proven points as well. Back to your test you've got drawing a bow as the most important part of bow hunting. Another lame talking point over used and proven insignificant in the taking of a deer. It is for traditional bows - not any other bows like compounds that have up to 99% let-off. All this points to a skewed thought process and reasoning based on opinion and feelings rather than known and proven data and facts. 

No wonder the state game dept doesn't listen to you. They're used to seeing right through agendas and arguments that don't add up. Since most land is privately owned sounds like your problem is from your own hunters. If they think like you do no wonder there's a problem there.


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## Jim C

BigBirdVA said:


> The test is a quite a joke. Question 3 asks who is excluded since there are no laws against xbows. Question 1 says they have been illegal since you started archery season. So which is it?
> 
> The multiple choice - pick an answer from what *you *consider to be the answers. The actual and correct answer isn't in the possible choices.
> 
> You know we have a ton of deer here and yet we've had harvest numbers go up and down for no apparent reason. Since you're obviously looking at all of it from the "World According to Rancid" viewpoint you're missing other obvious proven points as well. Back to your test you've got drawing a bow as the most important part of bow hunting. Another lame talking point over used and proven insignificant in the taking of a deer. It is for traditional bows - not any other bows like compounds that have up to 99% let-off. All this points to a skewed thought process and reasoning based on opinion and feelings rather than known and proven data and facts.
> 
> No wonder the state game dept doesn't listen to you. They're used to seeing right through agendas and arguments that don't add up. Since most land is privately owned sounds like your problem is from your own hunters. If they think like you do no wonder there's a problem there.


Why does Rancid have such a hard time in just coming out and saying what we all know motivates him? Of course those silly laws exclude people. And its funny that he claims my arguments are weak given his side keeps losing all over the USA because people realize that all the misinformation and obfuscation that comes from the excluders is due to greed and selfishness


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## Rancid Crabtree

awshucks said:


> Got any bow company interests or stocks Rancd?


No. While I am diversified, I own no stock in any archery interests. I do not own any interests in outfitting operations or in anything related to hunting. While stocks make up the lion's share of my portfolio, oil holdings are growing on our land in ND with mineral rights, lease agreements and a few wells over the Bakken shale oil reserve.

http://oilshalegas.com/bakkenshale.html

But I digress. what does any of this have to do with the curriculum and the facts surrounding WI laws and the opinions of WI hunters in opposition to crossbows in the archery deer season?


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## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> Why does Rancid have such a hard time in just coming out and saying what we all know motivates him?


That is exactly what I have been doing with this lesson plan. Everything is there for you to read so as to better understand the situation in WI. The ability to understand and accept rests squarely on your shoulders. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think. You would like to think it is me and only me and that is somehow standing on the air hose of what you view as equal protection under the law but it is the majority of bowhunters and the super majority of WBH members that I serve that oppose full inlusion. But I understand your need to attack me personally rather than apply your ill conceived outrage at the proper scale. 



Jim C said:


> Of course those silly laws exclude people.


Ok, since you are still having a hard time grasping this concept, let's get out of the classroom and take a cyber field trip. Hunting, fishing and trapping are constitutionally protected in WI. The laws and rule as to how hunting, fishing and trapping are conducted are spelled out in our state's statutes and administrative code. Contained in those many pages are certain restrictions and definitions. A bow is defined and a crossbow is defined, as are all the other legal weapons.

A good analogy that might help you understand pertains to firearms. Wisconsin allows all manner of firearms but prohibits fully auto firearms. You would consider that a silly restriction that excludes people. I'm certain there exists a person that wishes to hunt deer in WI with a .22 cal or full metal jacket ammo and thinks that he is being discriminated against or that our laws exclude him from doing what he wants. While it is legal in WI to hunt deer with a shotgun. It is illegal to hunt deer with a .410 shotgun. While it is legal to hunt deer with a rifle, it is illegal to use a rile during the firearms season in which only rifled muzzleloaders are allowed. Right now, you are probably thinking "Don't tread on me" but restrictions exist and they serve a purpose (you would call them laws that exclude people) Wisconsin does not allow concealed carry of handguns either.

More topical to this lesson are the following restrictions:

Bows, arrows, crossbows and bolts:


Bows must have a draw weight of 30 pounds or greater and metal broadheads must be at least 7/8 inches wide and kept sharp to hunt deer. 


Crossbows are only allowed for hunters 65 years of age or older and any disabled hunters with a Class A, C, B Crossbow, or crossbow permit. The crossbow must have a minimum draw of 100 pounds, a working safety, and use at least 14-inch long bolts equipped with broadheads.

Bows equipped with a drawlock mechanism that is capable of holding the bow at full draw without the aid of a hunter are considered crossbows (see disabled or elderly crossbow usage restrictions) These are exempt from the 100 pound requirement. You may not possess, while hunting, any poison, drug or explosive tipped arrow or bolts.

So, as we pull the bus back into the school parking lot, I hope this field trip served to solidify that every state has the ability to make and keeps it's own laws and at least in WI, those laws are established based on the opinions of the majority. The majority in WI do not support full inclusion of crossbows for deer hunting. As such, no legislation exists to change that but I encourage you and all out of staters to demand that change but consider everything you have read in the pages of this lesson plan as well as the conditions in WI and our deer herd.

Please take your possessions with you as you exit the bus. Watch your step and I will see you in the back in the classroom soon. :yo:


In the mean time, see if you can muster up the courage to take the quiz. don't fear the quiz. Embrace it and you will begin to understand.


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## Jim C

Here you go Rancid

I am a big believer in economy of effort

I rancid don't want to share the woods with any more hunters

there

that will save a few hundred thousand words


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## Rancid Crabtree

When you are losing an argument (and in this case, you have lost to the state of WI) , you tend to resort to personalities. Very predictable indeed. I would very much like to play poker with you one day. I have debated this topic with some very worthy thinker. In the arena of ideas, you are sorely unarmed. You have been weighed, measured and found wanting. Do yourself a favor, Go back to the beginning of this tread and re-read and reflect. 

Denial will do you no good. You must face the facts. You won't take the quiz because it exposes you. That in and of itself tells me this educational series has had the desired effect. It's ok. You don't have to say it out loud but internally, in that still, small place in the back of your mind, you have thrown up the white flag but by all means, put on a brave face for the readers (some of which are counting on you and have such high hopes) You don't want to let them down. You have only now, just realized that your quiver is depleted even though from the moment you entered this classroom, I knew it to be already empty. :clap:


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## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Well their in luck then. They have 3 choices to pick from. The elderly and impared get use a crossbow in the archery deer season. *See. nobody is excluded*. Everybody is happy.


Since you are holding class answer this question. This is a YES or NO only! 

1: Say a fellow hunter in Wisconsin is part of the 41.2% of bowhunters that want the crossbow included in archery season decides to buy a crossbow this year to hunt the Wisconsin archery season. This person is healthy & would not qualify for a handicaped permit. Would this person be excluded from using his weapon of choice (the crossbow) in season? 


A: YES

B: NO

Please pick only one this site has only so much bandwith to support your long winded excuses. 




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by awshucks
> Got any bow company interests or stocks Rancd?
> 
> No. While I am diversified, I own no stock in any archery interests. I do not own any interests in outfitting operations or in anything related to hunting. While stocks make up the lion's share of my portfolio, oil holdings are growing on our land in ND with mineral rights, lease agreements and a few wells over the Bakken shale oil reserve.
> 
> http://oilshalegas.com/bakkenshale.html
> 
> But I digress. *what does any of this have to do with the curriculum and the facts surrounding WI laws and the opinions of WI hunters in opposition to crossbows in the archery deer season?*


I think what shucks is questioning why would any so call hunting organization representing 3% of the bowhunting population waste hard earned resources fighting fellow hunters? There must be some underlying motive. This organization could put these funds towards youth progarms or other hunting related projects yet you chose to fight fellow WI hunters. It is your organization & your funds but in todays anti hunting and economic enviorment funding hunter against hunter is not in the best interest of any hunter. IT would appear you are border line anti-hunter if he/she do not conform to your narrow minded personal agenda. 41.2% of the bowhunters support crossbow inclusion. I would think a good portion of the hunting community in general support crossbows as well. Fighting crossbow inclusion does nothing but cause division among hunters....and the WBH funds & supports this. So how did the anti crossbow agenda fare in Michigan? Pennsylvania? New Jersey? Oklahoma? Texas?....Small special interest groups fought the anti crossbow/anti hunters fight in all these states. They have all learned the crossbow was a non event! And now hopefully all these states can TRY to get back to fighting the real enemy rather than fellow hunters. It is your choice drag this out hunter against hunter....just prolonging eventual inclusion. Because you KNOW it will happen!!! *It is not a question of IF it is just a matter of when!!!..............41.2%.....TICK-TICK-TICK*


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## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard , A bow is a bow , LOL !! A crowsbow IS NOT A BOW . The only thing a crossbow and a trad. bow or compound has in common is the limbs , thats IT !!


Tell me what a crossbow is, brainchild? What does it shoot? A bullet or an arrow? What powers the arrow, a string or gun powder? Do the limbs physically launch the the arrow or is it the string? And the power.. obviously and I'm not sure you got it... DOES come from the limbs. Oh.... and how do they kill?

It is statements like these that REALLY make me wonder if you live near powerlines or a nuke facility or are you predisposed towards smoking homegrown....

Sheesh......


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## Tim50

rattus58 said:


> Tell me what a crossbow is, brainchild? What does it shoot? A bullet or an arrow? What powers the arrow, a string or gun powder? Do the limbs physically launch the the arrow or is it the string? And the power.. obviously and I'm not sure you got it... DOES come from the limbs. Oh.... and how do they kill?
> 
> It is statements like these that REALLY make me wonder if you live near powerlines or a nuke facility or are you predisposed towards smoking homegrown....
> 
> Sheesh......


Yep....typical anti crossbow retoric!


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## Bloodbath

Tim. I'll answer your question. Yes. You would be excluded. If I hunt in the shotgun only zones in Wisconsin, and I buy a rifle, am I permited to hunt with the weapon of my choice? No.


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## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> Tim. I'll answer your question. Yes. You would be excluded. If I hunt in the shotgun only zones in Wisconsin, and I buy a rifle, am I permited to hunt with the weapon of my choice? No.


Why is there shotgun only area's? Safety reasons? (That's why we have them around here..) Why should the crossbow be excluded from archery season? It is a bow!


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## Tim50

The bottom line is you are possibily excluding 41.2% of WI fellow hunters. Not that they would all use a crossbow they just do not see the threat or believe the "sky is falling" position of the WBH. Thanks for the honest answer!!


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## Rancid Crabtree

Silly student. In WI, shotgun areas exist at the digressions of the residents of the state. Not the DNR, nor the NRB nor the legislature. Through the Conservation congress process, the hunters of WI determine the weapons and weapons areas. I can see you have not been paying attention in class. Waupaca county is one such example. The hunters of this state have determined that during the firearms seasons, only certain firearms are allowed. It's based on hunter opinion and not on safety concerns. Waupaca county is mostly wooded with ag and very low density of people compared to other areas of the state. Like it or not, hunters in WI choose the weapons allowed. The same holds true for crossbows. Now to your question. I am not afraid (like you and a few others) of answering a question. I wish you would grow a set and man up on this. Don't slink away when asked easy questions even if the answers crumble your position. You asked. 




Tim50 said:


> 1: Say a fellow hunter in Wisconsin is part of the 41.2% of bowhunters that want the crossbow included in archery season decides to buy a crossbow this year to hunt the Wisconsin archery season. This person is healthy & would not qualify for a handicaped permit. Would this person be excluded from using his weapon of choice the crossbow) in season?


The answer is NO! The hunters in WI have established that crossbows are not a legal weapon for the able bodied and those younger than 65. You can certainly purchase one and you can hope and wish to use it (like you can hope to use a rifle in shotgun counties) but the law is the law. Crossbows are not a weapon of choice for the able bodied and those under 65 making them illegal and not part of the weapons of choice any more than fishing with dynomite so the only answer is NO!. 

Likewise, I can buy a car and hope to park in the parking stall of my choice but there exists "NO PARKING" zones and handicapped only parking zones that prohibit the able bodied from using those parking stall. 

Now, that I have answered your question, let's see if you if you are able to man up and answer mine. Failing to do so exposes your recreant nature. Surely you have more pride in yourself than that or is it all fear based? Show a bit of dignity. If not for you, then the good people of PA. Your representing them whether you know it or not. Is this the best they have to offer?  When yo are ready, we can continue to discuss the hunting situation in WI. and legal and allowed weapons for the archery deer season in the dairy state.


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## Bloodbath

Tim50 said:


> The bottom line is you are possibily excluding 41.2% of WI fellow hunters. Not that they would all use a crossbow they just do not see the threat or believe the "sky is falling" position of the WBH. Thanks for the honest answer!!


Actually, that 41.2% are already hunters, so they aren't being excluded anymore than a rifle hunter in a shotgun zone. I don't hear anyone fighting about that. The shotgun only areas are not for safety reasons. They were established by hunters through the Conservation Congress.


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## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Silly student. In WI, shotgun areas exist at the digressions of the residents of the state. Not the DNR, nor the NRB nor the legislature. Through the Conservation congress process, the hunters of WI determine the weapons and weapons areas. I can see you have not been paying attention in class. Waupaca county is one such example. The hunters of this state have determined that during the firearms seasons, only certain firearms are allowed. It's based on hunter opinion and not on safety concerns. Waupaca county is mostly wooded with ag and very low density of people compared to other areas of the state. Like it or not, hunters in WI choose the weapons allowed. The same holds true for crossbows. Now to your question. I am not afraid (like you and a few others) of answering a question. I wish you would grow a set and man up on this. Don't slink away when asked easy questions even if the answers crumble your position. You asked.
> 
> 
> The answer is NO! The hunters in WI have established that crossbows are not a legal weapon for the able bodied and those younger than 65. You can certainly purchase one and you can hope and wish to use it (like you can hope to use a rifle in shotgun counties) but the law is the law. Crossbows are not a weapon of choice for the able bodied and those under 65 making them illegal and not part of the weapons of choice any more than fishing with dynomite so the only answer is NO!.
> 
> Likewise, I can buy a car and hope to park in the parking stall of my choice but there exists "NO PARKING" zones and handicapped only parking zones that prohibit the able bodied from using those parking stall.
> 
> Now, that I have answered your question, let's see if you if you are able to man up and answer mine. Failing to do so exposes your recreant nature. Surely you have more pride in yourself than that or is it all fear based? Show a bit of dignity. If not for you, then the good people of PA. Your representing them whether you know it or not. Is this the best they have to offer?  When yo are ready, we can continue to discuss the hunting situation in WI. and legal and allowed weapons for the archery deer season in the dairy state.


Crossbow hunters aren't going away. They say that the Truth will set you free and they say that persistance pays off. Here is YOUR problem, Crabby, we covet MORE than you than you can withstand. Your answer to crossbows is not founded on anything other than emotion, and that will not withstand the test of time. If you allow a compound bow in the archery season anywhere, you will ultimately lose. This is not about the game. It is not about the emotion. It is about bowhunting.

Now as to your analogy of the parking lot and no parking zones... No one has a problem with that as long as NO ONE CAN PARK THERE. But if you can park there and I'm paying for it, then Bub, I'll be parking there too... MLK or someone like that said so...


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## Redclub

Bloodbath said:


> Actually, that 41.2% are already hunters, so they aren't being excluded anymore than a rifle hunter in a shotgun zone. I don't hear anyone fighting about that. The shotgun only areas are not for safety reasons. They were established by hunters through the Conservation Congress.


I really don't believe that, Waupaca Co. (where I live) has been a shotgun zone for as long as I can recall. Now going from a shotgun to rifle, yes it can be changed thru the process,Next year Waupaca Co. could and probably will be a rifle Co. It was voted on at the Spring hearings and passed bigtime. Personnally I hope it doesn't as a lot more of the large bucks will be harvested. But then I am not a good person to comment as I hunt in the deerless North woods for rifle season. 
Redclub


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## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub said:


> Waupaca Co. (where I live) has been a shotgun zone for as long as I can recall. Now going from a shotgun to rifle, yes it can be changed thru the process,Next year Waupaca Co. could and probably will be a rifle Co. It was voted on at the Spring hearings and passed bigtime. *Personnally I hope it doesn't as a lot more of the large bucks will be harvested.* But then I am not a good person to comment as I hunt in the deerless North woods for rifle season. Redclub


Holy Smokes!  From a pro-crossbow guy nonetheless. Now I will expect that JimC and Tim50 and some of the other non-residents that care so much about WI will jump on you for that comment. Your saying that its ok for WI residents to restrict other hunters from using a type of legal firearm in a firearm, season for the sake of big bucks.  Where is the outrage from your xbow counterparts? I expect they will show up soon to chastise you and call you names and such. :rant: (lest they be exposed as hypocrites) :doh:

Rifles are already a legal weapon for everybody in WI for deer but you are endorsing keeping a legal weapon out of the firearms season based on greed for bigger bucks. Oh the outrage!!  I would not want to be you when JimC, and Timmer and awsucks and ratarse read your post. They just hate that sort of thinking and are not afraid to speak up about it. :no: Unless we think they will use selective indignation and ignore your comments because you are a pro-crossbow guy. Lets see if they are hypocrites.

At least crossbows are not a legal weapon in the WI archery deer season except for the elderly and infirmed so the law prevents their use but you are endorsing hunters against hunters. Oh the humanity!! 

By the way. Where did Tim50 go? there are some questions to be answered. Can one purchase dignity and a spine on Ebay? :behindsof


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## marbowNC

rattus58 said:


> Tell me what a crossbow is, brainchild? What does it shoot? A bullet or an arrow? What powers the arrow, a string or gun powder? Do the limbs physically launch the the arrow or is it the string? And the power.. obviously and I'm not sure you got it... DOES come from the limbs. Oh.... and how do they kill?
> 
> It is statements like these that REALLY make me wonder if you live near powerlines or a nuke facility or are you predisposed towards smoking homegrown....
> 
> Sheesh......


Crosssbows shoot BOLTS Not arrows .... SHEESH !! Not seen a bow yet that you put up to your shoulder like a rifle . kinda take the sport out of BOW HUNTING !! I have a slogan for the crossbow makers : crossbow the lazy mans choice !!LOL got a nice ring to it don't you think !! Honestly though ... Anyone can't NOT be serious when they call there self a BOW hunter when they use a crossbow !! THERE A CROSSBOW HUNTER !!


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## Bloodbath

Redclub said:


> I really don't believe that, Waupaca Co. (where I live) has been a shotgun zone for as long as I can recall. Now going from a shotgun to rifle, yes it can be changed thru the process,Next year Waupaca Co. could and probably will be a rifle Co. It was voted on at the Spring hearings and passed bigtime. Personnally I hope it doesn't as a lot more of the large bucks will be harvested. But then I am not a good person to comment as I hunt in the deerless North woods for rifle season.
> Redclub


I'm in the same situation. I live in the farmland of Outagamie cty, but my hunting land is in the northwoods.


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## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> Crosssbows shoot BOLTS Not arrows .... SHEESH !! Not seen a bow yet that you put up to your shoulder like a rifle . kinda take the sport out of BOW HUNTING !! I have a slogan for the crossbow makers : crossbow the lazy mans choice !!LOL got a nice ring to it don't you think !! Honestly though ... Anyone can't NOT be serious when they call there self a BOW hunter when they use a crossbow !! THERE A CROSSBOW HUNTER !!


I've rarely met someone so ignorant. For your information Chum, shoulder weapons have been around for thousands of years and "newsflash", they weren't firearms... care to hazard a thought on this? Firearms adopted an archery form, fancy that.. not the other way round. 

Now as for the bolt... please tell me the FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE AGAIN between a bolt and an arrow? By the way, do they kill any differently than a compound or recurve bow? Enquiring minds would love to know...

As for lazy, some think that treestand hunters are lazy. Others feel that those that bait are lazy. Still others feel that compound shooters aren't man enough to do away with the training wheels, but for me, and I'm sure most of the crossbow shooters out there, they see hunters as hunters no matter what they shoot nor how they hunt. In our world it's to each his own and I'd join any one of them in my hunting camp because I respect hunters of all stripe. You folks don't and that is why you're going to lose this battle. Get used to it.


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## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> Crosssbows shoot BOLTS Not arrows .... SHEESH !! Not seen a bow yet that you put up to your shoulder like a rifle . kinda take the sport out of BOW HUNTING !! I have a slogan for the crossbow makers : crossbow the lazy mans choice !!LOL got a nice ring to it don't you think !! Honestly though ... Anyone can't NOT be serious when they call there self a BOW hunter when they use a crossbow !! THERE A CROSSBOW HUNTER !!


Compounds are currently the choice for the lazy but that is a stupid argument. How are you hurt by someone using a Lazy man's bow> Do you claim that every compound archer trains harder than every crossbow archer. Take my student-the world champion. he shoots 10-12 hours a week and spend another 4-6 hours working out and doing mental training. Compared to 99% of the bowhunters, he sure trains in shooting more than they do. 

How are those dime sized groups at 60 yards coming? Next year there is 10,000 dollars for winning at the US Nationals.


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## Jim C

rattus58 said:


> I've rarely met someone so ignorant. For your information Chum, shoulder weapons have been around for thousands of years and "newsflash", they weren't firearms... care to hazard a thought on this? Firearms adopted an archery form, fancy that.. not the other way round.
> 
> Now as for the bolt... please tell me the FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE AGAIN between a bolt and an arrow? By the way, do they kill any differently than a compound or recurve bow? Enquiring minds would love to know...
> 
> As for lazy, some think that treestand hunters are lazy. Others feel that those that bait are lazy. Still others feel that compound shooters aren't man enough to do away with the training wheels, but for me, and I'm sure most of the crossbow shooters out there, they see hunters as hunters no matter what they shoot nor how they hunt. In our world it's to each his own and I'd join any one of them in my hunting camp because I respect hunters of all stripe. You folks don't and that is why you're going to lose this battle. Get used to it.


excellent post. Those who whine that others are lazy generally have self esteem issues. Its sort of like the loudest gay bashers are often closet cases themselves. Maybe some of our anti friends are secret closet crossbow wannabees?:tongue:


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## missedabiggun

Did MarbowNC just call us crossbow hunters lazy? And, according to Rancid Crabtree, we crossbow hunters are the ones who call names and insult people? Could it be that MarbowNC is a crossbow hunter in disguise? Or, if not, could it be that Rancid Crabtree could be wrong?


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