# Finding proper Draw Length?



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Read through the nuts & bolts of archery...it has some good tests for DL.

Also, have this moved from here to General archery...you'll get more responses.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Fury90flier said:


> Read through the nuts & bolts of archery...it has some good tests for DL.
> 
> Also, have this moved from here to General archery...you'll get more responses.


I've read just about everything on AT on this topic. I'm not a novice shooter looking for "how's my form" advice. How can something be as important as most will agree it is and not be worthy of discussion here? That said, I'll drop my question if nobody deems it worthy.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

EPLC said:


> I've read just about everything on AT on this topic. I'm not a novice shooter looking for "how's my form" advice. How can something be as important as most will agree it is and not be worthy of discussion here? That said, I'll drop my question if nobody deems it worthy.


Some on AT say that DL is not important, and that they can shoot practically any draw length, and get results.
Others say that DL is extremely important, and can ONLY get stellar results by fine tuning the draw length down to the half twist.

Others say that they cannot notice any difference in group size, when working the draw length across say a 1-inch spread.

It is all relative.

Depends on multiple factors.
If we are talking say 4-inch groups at 20 yards...sure, working the draw length 1-inch more, 1-inch less, THIS shooter might not notice much difference.

If we are talking going from 300 28X on the Vegas face, to 300 30X on the Vegas face
and you are nailing arrows inside a 3/4-inch group size at 20 yards (18 meters)...shooting ONE arrow at the target, again and again and drilling a tunnel,
then this shooter WILL notice a difference in small changes in "draw length".

HOWEVER,
if you are 27.5-inches of DL to 28.5-inches of draw length..
and you notice ZERO change in your float pattern...

this is a special case,
and there may be underlying issues.

So draw length matters.
USUALLY, small changes in "draw length" have a NOTICEABLE effect on the "float"
on shot accuracy, consistency, point of impact
for INTERMEDIATE and ADVANCED shooters.

I call it the TOTAL SPREAD distance concept,
so...the BOW draw length setting MATTERS for INTERMEDIATE and ADVANCED shooters
so...the d-loop length MATTERS TREMENDOUSLY for the ADVANCED shooters...especially the ADVANCED shooter

You know how to reach me.
WE can figure out YOUR specific case,
which is most definitely an ADVANCED shooter issue...


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## Nevada Smith (Sep 6, 2014)

As someone with a 27.5" DL I'm interested in this thread!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Nevada Smith said:


> As someone with a 27.5" DL I'm interested in this thread!


Under "normal" conditions,
small changes in the draw length
I'm talking 1/4-inch,
I'm talking 1/8th inch
I'm talking 1/16th inch...

WILL and SHOULD have a very very noticeable effect on your "float"

PRESUMING you have consistent form
PRESUMING your bow arm side...shoulder joint...elbow joint...wrist joint have no issues.

IF your shoulder joint has issues, the normal rules do not apply.
IF you have a titanium plate and titanium screws in your wrist joint, then the NORMAL rules REALLY REALLY do not apply.

So, if no artificial parts,
if no surgically repairs parts (joints)
if no parts (joints) that are pre-surgical...meaning you are HEADED towards surgery, and just putting things off..
then,
the "normal rules" do apply.

Shorten the bow DL setting even a TINY amount,
the sight pin/scope dot float gets TIGHTER...the movement, the size of the float pattern is tighter
and generally speeds up...the PIN moves FASTER, in a smaller diameter pattern.

This effect is MOST noticeable for the ADVANCED shooters.

So,
I EXPAND on this concept
to go BEYOND JUST the bow DL setting.

I call it the TOTAL SPREAD distance concept

which is the measurement from the TIP of the release arm elbow
to the THROAT of the grip.

So, WHO CARES?

Well,
if you are truly as ADVANCED a shooter, as the name IMPLIES...whatever "advanced" means...

then,
there are MULTIPLE things that affect your TOTAL spread distance.

1) alignment of shoulders, are your shoulders open, with respect to the arrow, when at full draw?
....alignment of shoulders, are your shoulders parallel, with respect to the arrow, when at full draw?
....alignment of shoulders, are your shoulders "closed", with respect to the arrow, when at full draw

the Alignment of the shoulders, when you are at full draw, can SHRINK or GROW the "total spread distance" with ZERO change to the bow DL.

2) shape of the finger curl around your handle release...affects TOTAL spread distance.
....TIGHT CURL around the handle with your fingers?
....LOOSE curl around the handle with your fingers?

3) d-loop length...tune the d-loop length down to the 1/32nd inch
....this has a MASSIVE effect...but, ONLY for the "advanced" shooter...cuz, you can only TUNE to the skill level of the shooter
....WANT to reach the level where you can STUFF an arrow into the SAME hole, at 20 yards (18 meters)?

folks talk about 1-inch groups at 20 yards.
some folks TALK about 1/2-inch groups at 20 yards
how about shooting ONE arrow into the SAME hole at 20 yards?

IF you are an "advanced shooter"...whatever that means,
then somewhere in your training...you will or SHOULD look at the effects of tuning your d-loop length.

IT makes a difference, in the RIGHT hands, 
when you tune the d-loop length,
AFTER you tune "OTHER THINGS"...in ORDER.

4) sooo, you guys are STARTING to understand my TOTAL spread distance concept
....therefore, if you think of a train, with multiple train cars...

then, you will understand that RELEASE NECK length makes a HUGE difference in TOTAL spread distance
so you then, can extrapolate that for the "ADVANCED" shooter...

that for a LONG neck release, you must tune the d-loop SHORTER
and
that for a SHORT NECK release, you must again, tune the d-loop LONGER..

and that switching between a long neck release and a SHORT neck release
in ONE training session is a real WASTE of time, and not productive.


So,
if a shooter, an "advanced shooter" does NOT experience changes in the apparent FLOAT for his sight picture,
this is an ADVANCED concept, that warrants further study.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Float is effected by more than what has been noted. Being "relaxed" at full draw and know comfort - like you could "fall asleep." Peep location, head too high, head too low involves muscles and in turn strain. Strain effects what? Seeing effects float, wrong size peep, wrong size pin or dot or scope housing. What you should "see" should be right there, now. I really don't know what doesn't effect float....

We rattled of stabilizers, front and back, weights, in the attempt of finding "float." Go to the Low wrist grip, Medium wrist grip High wrist grip thread. Winning Vegas and Cobo Hall, 1200 scores, his cam leaning, paper ripping bows given of since forever. Big clunky sight frame, thin front stab and no back bars. Check the pressure on the his bow hand, white, "thumb trigger."


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC, 
i'm was somewhat the same, jumping back and forth between a 27.5 mod and a 28 mod. both worked well enough that I couldn't say for sure which was better, until I started paying intensive attention to my release execution. with the 27.5 mod vs. the 28 mod, my execution went from "running the execution mentally", to not having to think about it at all. simply draw, settle in and wait...5-4-3-2-1..there goes the arrow. it got down to the point that a couple twists of the string changed my "shot time" noticeably because that mod put my anchor in it's sweet spot dynamically.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> EPLC,
> i'm was somewhat the same, jumping back and forth between a 27.5 mod and a 28 mod. both worked well enough that I couldn't say for sure which was better, until I started paying intensive attention to my release execution. with the 27.5 mod vs. the 28 mod, my execution went from "running the execution mentally", to not having to think about it at all. simply draw, settle in and wait...5-4-3-2-1..there goes the arrow. it got down to the point that a couple twists of the string changed my "shot time" noticeably because that mod put my anchor in it's sweet spot dynamically.


This may very well be part of the problem as I have always had issues with "letting go"... I shoot a hinge and tend to fight the execution with my index finger. I have a Scott "Hex" on its way so that should at least remove the index from the equation.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nuts&bolts said:


> HOWEVER,
> if you are 27.5-inches of DL to 28.5-inches of draw length..
> and you notice ZERO change in your float pattern...
> 
> ...


And this may very well be the underlying issue: I was rolling along just fine, working on my shot routine, and having my best season in a while. Then I started reading about "hold" (once again) and found myself fixating on my hold. Now I want to fix it, so I start watching it more. Of course the more I watch it the more I want to fix it... and the more I fixated on fixing it the worst it got. I've learned this lesson many times but, here it was again. If I pay no attention to it I shoot fairly well. The problem is that it's never good enough. After a while I'll try to fix what apparently can't be fixed again and have to go full circle again... 

The best quote I've seen on here in some time is what I need to get back to and stop screwing around with stuff that I'm probably never going to improve...

*"...train your mind to accept sight movement 
and not stop your execution." Blue X*


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, you're thinking right. Tinkering can be a real issue. Years back I heard this and just recently I read of it; I could have swore my pin was out of the bull's eye and my arrow still went in the X. And something like this; The eyes see and brain wants to know where the X is, so the brain "peeks" just a bit. Just execute.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

In for the argument... er... uh... I mean discussion.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

EPLC said:


> This may very well be part of the problem as I have always had issues with "letting go"... I shoot a hinge and tend to fight the execution with my index finger. I have a Scott "Hex" on its way so that should at least remove the index from the equation.


Unfortunatley, My personal feeling here is that going to the hex, should it offer up any improvement at all, may be temporarily masking what I perceive here to be the issue. I have had the very same problem for a lot of years. We all know that a hinge MUST rotate to fire and its very easy to say just relax your index finger and pull. This however I have found to be exactly the issue in my execution when I had a tonne of 'hang-ups". Attempting to relax the index and pull at the same time subconscioulsy forced to me to try and hold onto the release more and it always seemed the index was the culprit when in fact it was the entire hand. Its a simple thing but as I come into anchor and relax into the shooting position, while my dot is dropping in on the target the phrase "THE HAND MUST YIELD" booms in my head. By yielding the hand before i begin to aim, my shot is now primed and the hand is removed from the shot. When my firing engine gets the signal to run as my dot begins to float on the X (never solidly held just a 'calming' acceptable float) applying the back tension draws my rear elbow down and back as opposed to a more linear pull that i was using previous. this has helped me, i know its not a direct answer to your DL issue but i hope you understand my reason for posting.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> I've been shooting for 18 years, both right handed, and for the past 8 years, left handed. I've had successes and failures from both sides. Draw length has always been a mystery for me. I've shot everything from 27 1/2" to 28 1/2" and my float pattern doesn't seem to form any particular shape and really isn't modified much by changing DL. This makes it difficult to follow the common methods to identify a too long or short condition. I generally end up settling for 28" but I'm never really happy with it. What processes are out there that might help me settle in?


 ELPC, my draw length adjustments didn't matter to me either until I learned how to release my hinge consistently. 
from what I gather your holding the release in what I call my cannot fire position, which is where I hold mine when I draw the bow, I don't want my hinge to fire while drawing the bow. Now after drawing and holding and getting everything set I rotate my hinge to what I call my ready to fire position, I rotate the handle to the click only I don't have a clicker so I rotate to my ready to fire position. where your getting stuck is your not getting the hinge ready to fire but your still holding the handle more toward cannot fire position. then your pulling back and nothing happens. that's because your not letting the release respond to your back-pull effort. when I was there draw length adjustments were meaningless. 

somewhere along the line I now have three positions I go thru, Cannot fire to draw, ready to fire while holding and pre-aiming so to speak, now I have a commit to fire position, this Is when I have mentally decided to commit and shoot the arrow. mentally I have shot the arrow, only thing left is to physically get it launched. so I physically on purpose relax my index finger and second finger which allows the release to rotate a little bit more but still not tripped. I commit to aiming and expand thru my shot. My expansion thru the shot is initiate with my rhomboid which sets up a chain of events that fires the release. I cannot see this part on videos but I can feel it happening inside of me when I do it.
good luck, at my age (67 next month) I have given up on getting better, I am just trying to hang on to what I have, but it isn't easy.


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

Ttt


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Bees said:


> ELPC, my draw length adjustments didn't matter to me either until I learned how to release my hinge consistently.
> from what I gather your holding the release in what I call my cannot fire position, which is where I hold mine when I draw the bow, I don't want my hinge to fire while drawing the bow. Now after drawing and holding and getting everything set I rotate my hinge to what I call my ready to fire position, I rotate the handle to the click only I don't have a clicker so I rotate to my ready to fire position. where your getting stuck is your not getting the hinge ready to fire but your still holding the handle more toward cannot fire position. then your pulling back and nothing happens. that's because your not letting the release respond to your back-pull effort. when I was there draw length adjustments were meaningless.
> 
> somewhere along the line I now have three positions I go thru, Cannot fire to draw, ready to fire while holding and pre-aiming so to speak, now I have a commit to fire position, this Is when I have mentally decided to commit and shoot the arrow. mentally I have shot the arrow, only thing left is to physically get it launched. so I physically on purpose relax my index finger and second finger which allows the release to rotate a little bit more but still not tripped. I commit to aiming and expand thru my shot. My expansion thru the shot is initiate with my rhomboid which sets up a chain of events that fires the release. I cannot see this part on videos but I can feel it happening inside of me when I do it.
> good luck, at my age (67 next month) I have given up on getting better, I am just trying to hang on to what I have, but it isn't easy.


Yes, once again you've nailed it. That's exactly what I've been doing with the release and as of late I've been working on fixing that... going to take a while as I've really engrained this deeply. My birthday is on the 14th, what's yours?... and I still have plans of being better...


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> Yes, once again you've nailed it. That's exactly what I've been doing with the release and as of late I've been working on fixing that... going to take a while as I've really engrained this deeply. My birthday is on the 14th, what's yours?... and I still have plans of being better...


well than this might help you. So there I was with inconsistent release , I got what I call hang ups. last year at Lancaster those hang ups cost me a spot on Sunday shoot up.(they took 8 and I was tied for 8th but got beat out on x count (11's)) So went to work, I took off everything on the bow left the site on and hung up a single 5 spot target 20 yards away. I put my 8 power scope in the sight and moved the sight bar all the way out. Now I saw motion and a lot of it. then I worked out my sequence to shoot the arrow anyway, I didn't care where the arrow went, I was just determined to get the arrow gone without a hang up, letting down is not a option for this exercise as you want to shoot without caring about float. I kept doing this and still do it but now a Vegas target. So now I can shoot the arrow regardless of what I see, Now I have put my long bar out front with 1 ounce of weight, no back weights, and I shoot some more, when I execute correctly I get a baby X. make a mistake and 10's and 9 happen. really screw it up and I'm out into the 8. draw length 27.5 inches. next vary draw length settings to see where I need to be on the Vegas face. Draw length will probably be different on the 5 spot.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

This is 40 arrows into each spot, doing the Just shoot the arrow drill at 20 yards , working on draw length, this is 27.5 inches 
one 32 inch front bar with 2 ounces of weight, no back bars at all. I scored an 80 on this effort, of the 120 arrows, 80 good releases, the other 40 not so good. 3 arrows out into the red and a couple of 9-8 line splits. My shooting is always a work in progress..


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

What I find is I can make a not so good release and the arrow will still find the 10 and sometimes the baby X. it also goes the other way I can make a good release but the arrow still lands out into the 9. These are the ones that really have my attention as I don't know why they are out there.

let downs are illegal for this drill, so next time I'll practice if the sight picture doesn't look good then let it down drill. 
hoping I can turn some of these 9's into a 10 with some let downs and do overs....


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

learning the release and making strong shots needs to be done separate from aiming- if the foundation of the shot isn't there when aiming introduced you become very careful and forceful; the release hangs, since it hangs you rip through the shot, since you rip through it doesn't go in the middle and the cycle continues. At this point the process needs to be broken down and one portion needs to be looked at individually of the process as a whole.

If the goal is to shoot good shots and only good shots then only shoot the good ones- any drill or excessive where bad shots aren't let down does more harm than it ever does good. If every shot drawn back is put down range the range of what is considered an "acceptable" shot is left very broad and open. When learning to shoot only the "good" ones if you are sending 75% of the shots downrange you are doing very well. You need to be very selective of what you shoot: timing needs to be the same, the feel needs to be the same, how and when you hit anchor, how the hands feel, if the arrow stayed on the blade, was the dot coming in from the same direction... etc. As you cull out the shots that won't play you reinforce the mental image of what a good shot it from the setup side(good shots should not be tied to a score value so much as they should be tied to printing behind the dot and correct execution).

Start on a target at 5yds and work the program letting down on any shot that doesn't fit the image of a good shot. watch how the groups react, watch how the consistency of shots reacts, watch how it becomes easier to put arrows into the same hole. Work back slowly to 18m; shoot until things flow, then move back. When shots hang look as to what aspect(s) of your form has changed and make notes to fix that- i.e. relax the hands, aim soft, etc. "score" based upon the quality of shot- if your dot is in the 6 and thats where they arrow printed and it felt good, thats a good shot; if its in the x but your dot was in the 9 and it didn't feel all that great then it wasn't a good shot... 

when you have your shot learned you can shoot 25% "good" shots and still end up on the podium...


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

" If the goal is to shoot good shots and only good shots then only shoot the good ones- any drill or excessive where bad shots aren't let down does more harm than it ever does good ' Awesome - There is a positive set value on letting down , when you start to realize you just gained points by letting down your mind set changes - 

around 1:15 
fixes problem , still lets down and resets -


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

N7709K said:


> learning the release and making strong shots needs to be done separate from aiming- if the foundation of the shot isn't there when aiming introduced you become very careful and forceful; the release hangs, since it hangs you rip through the shot, since you rip through it doesn't go in the middle and the cycle continues. At this point the process needs to be broken down and one portion needs to be looked at individually of the process as a whole.
> 
> If the goal is to shoot good shots and only good shots then only shoot the good ones- any drill or excessive where bad shots aren't let down does more harm than it ever does good. If every shot drawn back is put down range the range of what is considered an "acceptable" shot is left very broad and open. When learning to shoot only the "good" ones if you are sending 75% of the shots downrange you are doing very well. You need to be very selective of what you shoot: timing needs to be the same, the feel needs to be the same, how and when you hit anchor, how the hands feel, if the arrow stayed on the blade, was the dot coming in from the same direction... etc. As you cull out the shots that won't play you reinforce the mental image of what a good shot it from the setup side(good shots should not be tied to a score value so much as they should be tied to printing behind the dot and correct execution).
> 
> ...



Pure gold right here ^^^.
Gracias Jacob!


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

fighting the release with your index finger.....
if you don't relax your release hand and let the top of your hand get flat, so just the fingers, formed in "hook", hang on to the release, you will have this problem. 
when your hand stays tense, you have a tendency to keep the release in the exact position it started in, as you flex you rhomboids, thus resisting the rotation the rhomboids are trying to produce, that fires the release.


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## jozi (Oct 29, 2011)

*finding proper drawlenght*

hi all. The poor man did not get a answer to finding proper drawlenght. I might be able to give a practical help which heiped me to get a much steadier hold (i am 65 and have arthritus in my bow shoulder) I have been a rifle target schooter for over 30 years before picking up a compound bow 2 years ago. I always made my rifle fit me (filling/sanding)
So after trying all the comon methodes i stil did not feel comfortable with my bow. What i did was the following. i got an inchtape and connected an 1 ich d loop on it. Then i held the inchtape in my bowhand as if it was the bow.The dloop was in between my thumb and forefinger and the brake on the inchtape is half on then I took my relaese in my drawhand and hooked it on the dloop. I stood in front of a mirror..Did as if a draw my bow and anchered and checked if my releasearm was in line with the tape. Then put down read the tapelenght + 1 inch. I did this 10 times. Took the averiidge . Now i had my drawlenght from *bowgrip to release aid.* Next i set the bow drawlenght so that the string sat nicely against my nose with my head in a natural position. the difference between the measured drawlenght and the set drawlenght is my looplenght.
This helped me to stand relaxed and to get my grouping on 30 yrds from 3 ich to 2 ich without changing anything else


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## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> Read through the nuts & bolts of archery...it has some good tests for DL.
> 
> Also, have this moved from here to General archery...you'll get more responses.


I can't recommend these "testes"
Me and two other target archers at our club unintentionally managed to beat some test with as much as 1.5" off the proper draw length.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

EPLC said:


> This may very well be part of the problem as I have always had issues with "letting go"... I shoot a hinge and tend to fight the execution with my index finger. I have a Scott "Hex" on its way so that should at least remove the index from the equation.


Im sure somebody on here has mentioned it, but if you are having index finger trouble on your aim/expand/release - your missing a step. Many times ( I was the worlds worst) we will go from anchor and straight to aim. We miss the transfer. If your hinge is set up correctly - with even finger pressure - if you transfer your holding weight to your back, your hand, forearm and bicep should be relaxed. Thus you can then expand with an angular motion instead of a linear pull. You don't need a Hex - you need to re-examine your process.

Which is directly related to having the correct draw length.

.02


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*Making fine adjustments*

I've been working on fine tuning my DL as well as my stabilizer setup over the past couple weeks. I've gotten my draw down to 27 13/16" from 27 3/4" but had experimented out to 28 1/4" during the process. I have 2 bows that I have been working, a 2014 PSE Supra Max and a 2013 Dominator Max. Both setups are similar with 50# draw weight. The Dominator has more strands on the power cable which produces a shorter valley. The Dominator seems to be grouping better than the Supra with the Supra spraying shots along a horizontal plane. These were shot at a 20 CM Bunny @ 15 yards and were 10 arrows each. At this point I don't thing it's DL with the Supra as this pattern has been typical regardless of DL, etc. In the field I get basically the same results with the Supra but haven't been shooting the Dominator outdoors so I have no sampling. The Supra has me stumped.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

EPLC said:


> I've gotten my draw down to 27 13/16" from 27 3/4"


27 13/16" is longer than 27 3/4" (27 12/16").


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Praeger said:


> 27 13/16" is longer than 27 3/4" (27 12/16").


Oops, 27 11/16" (and I was a precision machinist for 20 years )


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

what is see in those targets is typical of the advantages of shoot through technology. eliminating that side torque of conventional rigs, removes the tendency to spread shots horizontally, from draw length being just slightly off.
eg, that side torque from the cable guide imparts a certain amount of sensitivity to "push-pull" shot execution, that only the exactly right draw length resolves.
when I was shooting more competitively, I was constantly adjusting my draw length by minute amounts, trying to eliminate that horizontal spread. when I went to Merlin's shoot through rig on my Super Nova, all that disappeared in a few shots.
what I see here is about the same as I experienced.....stick with the dominator. the more set in it's ways, your shot executionis, the more advantageous, that shoot through rig will be.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> what is see in those targets is typical of the advantages of shoot through technology. eliminating that side torque of conventional rigs, removes the tendency to spread shots horizontally, from draw length being just slightly off.
> eg, that side torque from the cable guide imparts a certain amount of sensitivity to "push-pull" shot execution, that only the exactly right draw length resolves.
> when I was shooting more competitively, I was constantly adjusting my draw length by minute amounts, trying to eliminate that horizontal spread. when I went to Merlin's shoot through rig on my Super Nova, all that disappeared in a few shots.
> what I see here is about the same as I experienced.....stick with the dominator. the more set in it's ways, your shot executionis, the more advantageous, that shoot through rig will be.


But... while the bow does have a shoot through riser, the Dominator is not a true shoot through system as it does have a cable guard. It has the exact same cabling system as the Supra.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yaeh, your right, I forgot about that, I seem to forget that they can be had both ways, and that allot of them are as yours.....some thing that I see as somewhat foolish. why have a shoot through riser, with the advantages of a shoot through rig ?
I guess, when I think, "shoot through", I think about the rig and not about the riser only.....just my logical mind thinking in logical ways. the shoot through riser, with the shoot through rig, isn't a shoot through advantage, beyond the elimination of some riser twist, which in reality, lends itself to "shoot through advantage". so in a possibly lesser condition, my observations still hold true. the only caveat, is that a set like yours is allot of expense and machine work, for very little theoretical improvement.
considering that most all bows made these days, are truly "center shot", a shoot through riser with a conventional rig is sort of a step backwards, despite the obvious advantage your pics illustrate. 
I shoot a Supra, as well....I single cam, and i'm considering getting a set of cams and converting it to shoot through.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

EPLC said:


> I've been working on fine tuning my DL as well as my stabilizer setup over the past couple weeks. I've gotten my draw down to 27 13/16" from 27 3/4" but had experimented out to 28 1/4" during the process. I have 2 bows that I have been working, a 2014 PSE Supra Max and a 2013 Dominator Max. Both setups are similar with 50# draw weight. The Dominator has more strands on the power cable which produces a shorter valley. The Dominator seems to be grouping better than the Supra with the Supra spraying shots along a horizontal plane. These were shot at a 20 CM Bunny @ 15 yards and were 10 arrows each. At this point I don't thing it's DL with the Supra as this pattern has been typical regardless of DL, etc. In the field I get basically the same results with the Supra but haven't been shooting the Dominator outdoors so I have no sampling. The Supra has me stumped.


I am experiencing the same issue with my Supra. I'm still working on mine and it's way more nervous than my Dominator ever was. My next move will be more strands on the cables and a bunch of twisting to lower letoff to 60% or below along with putting it on a weight gain program.

I have found that moving the mods to the next longer hole and leaving the draw stops where they are, decreases letoff to 65% and significantly helps float and feel. YMMV


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> yaeh, your right, I forgot about that, I seem to forget that they can be had both ways, and that allot of them are as yours.....some thing that I see as somewhat foolish. why have a shoot through riser, with the advantages of a shoot through rig ?
> I guess, when I think, "shoot through", I think about the rig and not about the riser only.....just my logical mind thinking in logical ways. the shoot through riser, with the shoot through rig, isn't a shoot through advantage, beyond the elimination of some riser twist, which in reality, lends itself to "shoot through advantage". so in a possibly lesser condition, my observations still hold true. the only caveat, is that a set like yours is allot of expense and machine work, for very little theoretical improvement.
> considering that most all bows made these days, are truly "center shot", a shoot through riser with a conventional rig is sort of a step backwards, despite the obvious advantage your pics illustrate.
> I shoot a Supra, as well....I single cam, and i'm considering getting a set of cams and converting it to shoot through.


The Dominator is no different than any of the Hoyt Elite risers from a shoot through standpoint. Neither offers a true shoot through system, only shoot through risers.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> I've been working on fine tuning my DL as well as my stabilizer setup over the past couple weeks. I've gotten my draw down to 27 13/16" from 27 3/4" but had experimented out to 28 1/4" during the process. I have 2 bows that I have been working, a 2014 PSE Supra Max and a 2013 Dominator Max. Both setups are similar with 50# draw weight. The Dominator has more strands on the power cable which produces a shorter valley. The Dominator seems to be grouping better than the Supra with the Supra spraying shots along a horizontal plane. These were shot at a 20 CM Bunny @ 15 yards and were 10 arrows each. At this point I don't thing it's DL with the Supra as this pattern has been typical regardless of DL, etc. In the field I get basically the same results with the Supra but haven't been shooting the Dominator outdoors so I have no sampling. The Supra has me stumped.



I would think the Supra riser would have more riser twist in it when at full draw then the Dominator.

I know my Hoyt Protec riser has more in it then my PSE 3D Max riser.
I attach a laser pointer to my sight, put the bow in my vice on a table and mark the light beam on the wall. 
then with the bow still in the vice I draw the bow back and watch the beam move. 

when I do it with the 3D max it doesn't move the beam much at all. 

(If I had a hooter shooter I could get a more accurate reading)

based on those holes I would shoot the dominator.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*More work on Supra Max*

I spent a good part of today working on the Supra Max and I made some progress. I made new cables for the bow with 16 strands for the control cable and 24 strands on the buss. I timed the bow so each cable touched at the same time. Because of the over-sized buss this put the top cam in a slightly advanced state. The pictured below are 10 arrows into a 20 cm bunny face from 15 yards. Only 3 were out of the dime sized group. With everything else remaining the same, adding a little more backpressure seems to have helped.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> The Dominator is no different than any of the Hoyt Elite risers from a shoot through standpoint. Neither offers a true shoot through system, only shoot through risers.


 I guess that news to me. I assumed both were available either wat, but most people ordered them with conventional rigs. 
to that news, I will ask....what's the sense of a shoot through riser , with out a shoot through rig ?.. it is the rig that causes the torque that shoot through technology is supposed to reduce.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The shoot riser....a more stable riser/platform? ....Go back to the era of the UltraTec and UltraElite. Basically, the same bow spec wise, but for the shoot through riser of the UltraElite. The ProElite no different the ProTec spec wise. The Elites were given at least 5 fps faster with all else being equal....

P.S.
My 06 ProElite with adjustable Cam & 1/2 was a dog.... Accurate, but couldn't get out of it's own way. Still, I did pretty good in 3D.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> I spent a good part of today working on the Supra Max and I made some progress. I made new cables for the bow with 16 strands for the control cable and 24 strands on the buss. I timed the bow so each cable touched at the same time. Because of the over-sized buss this put the top cam in a slightly advanced state. The pictured below are 10 arrows into a 20 cm bunny face from 15 yards. Only 3 were out of the dime sized group. With everything else remaining the same, adding a little more backpressure seems to have helped.


Looking at those holes I would say you had 3 releases that your bow arm moved during your execution phase of your cycle.

So you can keep dabbling with draw length and see if that improves bow arm movement.

I'm at this point too, and I have decided that my draw length is good, so I work on me. 
I find when I'm out of the group hole, I have decreased( basically a mini collapse of my bow arm) during my expansion phase.
I forget about the push and the pull overrides the push and causes my bow arm to move just before/during arrow release. 
it's a tuff one but I think I am gaining ground on that flaw... 

looks like your gaining ground too...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Bees said:


> I find when I'm out of the group hole, I have decreased( basically a mini collapse of my bow arm) during my expansion phase.
> I forget about the push and the pull overrides the push and causes my bow arm to move just before/during arrow release...


I too have this issue. I've recently gone back to adding a slight push along with my pull... very difficult to get the pressure even on both ends. I think my 27 11/16" DL is where it needs to be but I'm still tweaking the d-loop to come up with my happy spot. Btw my d-loop is 1.400" inside. I found that by going a tad short with the bow and long on the loop provides the best balance for me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

try pushing from your shoulder instead of with your bow arm/hand.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> try pushing from your shoulder instead of with your bow arm/hand.


Not sure I understand or have the body control to do that. I think it's back to the drawing board with my DL... which has been the problem all along. Just when I think I have it right, it suddenly goes south on me. Over the past couple of days my DL felt decent but today it felt and responded as too short. The bow was choppy and I had a lot of side to side issues. Quite frankly I couldn't hit anything.

Part of the problem is that short range shooting doesn't work very well for me. What feels good at 7-15 yards never seems to translate to real shooting distances. I go through this all the time and it's very frustrating to say the least.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> Not sure I understand or have the body control to do that. I think it's back to the drawing board with my DL... which has been the problem all along. Just when I think I have it right, it suddenly goes south on me. Over the past couple of days my DL felt decent but today it felt and responded as too short. The bow was choppy and I had a lot of side to side issues. Quite frankly I couldn't hit anything.
> 
> Part of the problem is that short range shooting doesn't work very well for me. What feels good at 7-15 yards never seems to translate to real shooting distances. I go through this all the time and it's very frustrating to say the least.


I had this problem today starting my morning session. 
I was all over the 9 ring on my 15 yard drill.

After 9 arrows I stopped and asked myself what is wrong. I mean it was like I never had shot before.

I dawned on me that I was just flinging arrows, I wasn't shooting my shot process. 
I started with the process of getting back to my process, and the arrows worked their way back into the middle of the target. 

For me I have to think my way through my shot process. 
If I think the same way through my cycle, my body follows with a repeatable cycle.
if I don't my arrows spray all around in the 9 ring.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

ron w said:


> yaeh, your right, I forgot about that, I seem to forget that they can be had both ways, and that allot of them are as yours.....some thing that I see as somewhat foolish. why have a shoot through riser, with the advantages of a shoot through rig ?
> I guess, when I think, "shoot through", I think about the rig and not about the riser only.....just my logical mind thinking in logical ways. the shoot through riser, with the shoot through rig, isn't a shoot through advantage, beyond the elimination of some riser twist, which in reality, lends itself to "shoot through advantage". so in a possibly lesser condition, my observations still hold true. the only caveat, is that a set like yours is allot of expense and machine work, for very little theoretical improvement.
> considering that most all bows made these days, are truly "center shot", a shoot through riser with a conventional rig is sort of a step backwards, despite the obvious advantage your pics illustrate.
> I shoot a Supra, as well....I single cam, and i'm considering getting a set of cams and converting it to shoot through.


Which cams for the Supra? Would you go with a true shoot through rig or just the "hangers" and moving the buss cable over



ron w said:


> try pushing from your shoulder instead of with your bow arm/hand.


This one will need some detail...it's a concept that is difficult for many to understand

I was able to do this yesterday by accident...actually I think it's old habit- it's how I used to fire a release.

Sure was nice having that shoulder move to the target and have zero hand torque (that doesn't happen often)



EPLC said:


> Not sure I understand or have the body control to do that. I think it's back to the drawing board with my DL... which has been the problem all along. Just when I think I have it right, it suddenly goes south on me. Over the past couple of days my DL felt decent but today it felt and responded as too short. The bow was choppy and I had a lot of side to side issues. Quite frankly I couldn't hit anything.
> 
> Part of the problem is that short range shooting doesn't work very well for me. What feels good at 7-15 yards never seems to translate to real shooting distances. I go through this all the time and it's very frustrating to say the least.


Know how you flick your index finger...hold it down with your thumb while applying pressure to the thumb--move the thumb and the finger fires forward---similar.

With back tension, you're holding your shoulders in-line. They can stay there or one shouder can move. If you pick the bow shouder to move, you're basically allowing that side to "spring forward". With practice you can control this quite well and get that bow moving directly at the target and very little torque


I konw the feeling you're reffering to and I'd agree--it's quite frustrating.

one thing I've noticed, or am making an connection on, is grip. That is the start of wrist/elbow/shoulder alignment. If I get that grip right, I mean perfect...DL doesn't feel bad and my shots are much more on. Even the ones I feel I dropped are closer in. Just yesterday I was shooting out to 70 yards and had a few bad shots-- called them Low Right or Low Left depending on the case...all called shots were much closer in than I had thought- on all the "good grip" shots. On all the crap grip shots where I was just flinging them-- far out just as called.

an easy way to get that "locked in" feeling is to shoot with your eyes closed. With no target face to get in the way...you're just left to feel the shot. Once you get used to it, go to the longer range and try your new "felt" draw length....though do open your eyes at longer distance.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

To determine correct dl, do you first tie in a d loop short then twist or untwist string and cables and or mods? Per Alistair Whitton he says no such thing as to short a d loop. However, going back and looking at several top shooters they have D loops that are probably 1/2" or longer. I think this is good because I believe it puts the arrow more under the eye and perhaps a little less side pressure from the face on the arrow. Not really hijacking the thread, just believe it's all tied in together. What's your thoughts?


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