# Seeing your arrow flight.



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

I bought an Xpedition bow to replace my E35 for IBO 3D 3 weeks ago. I have been shooting my GT Ultralights but I now have some CXL Pro 350's to get closer to my max IBO arrow speed. I changed my bow yesterday [rest and nocking point] to shoot the new fatter arrows. I have a 30 yd indoor range with fair-decent lighting and was shooting decent with the new arrows but no nocks were in danger so I felt something was wrong. It paper tuned perfectly before shooting so I figured it was just me.

Tonight I went to my local shop that has a 50 yd 3D range with all kinds of nice LED lighting. So I shot a few at the 20 and 30 yd bags, decent but not good. So i decide it is just me and start shooting the 3D targets, man was that ugly. My arrows were coming off the rest and jumping tail low and left [visually] so I wait for the shop owner to get done with a customer. Finally take the bow into him and tell him what is going on, basically he tells me I am nuts because some book says a shooter can't see an arrow in flight from behind. So anyhow he takes and checks everything and makes a few adjustments and finally get it to shoot bullet holes through paper again. I sight it in again at the bags and move back to the DARK 3D targets. Start shooting and again some of the arrows have crappy flight so I tell him about it and he says I am crazy that some book says it is impossible to see the arrow flight when shooting. So the question is am I crazy ? Another shooter I was talking to told me he can see his when they fly bad.

How about you guys ? Sorry if some of you don't feel this belongs here but to me this is a question I want to ask serious shooters not the AT faithful.

Can you see the flight of your arrow when shooting. I have to have very good lighting or a nice sunny day to see them.

Part 2 how do I fix this issue for those of you that don't think I am crazy ? Do I try to paper tune at 10 yds. ?

Thanks Dave


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## pseshooter84 (Jun 9, 2012)

I believe ya 100%. The bow i shoot better with i never can see the arrow flight. With the bow i haven't been shooting as good with, i can visually see the arrow because its not shooting as flat or straight. I was thinking fletching clearance was my issue but idk


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Yes you can see the flight of the arrow, some can, some cannot. It just depends on the speed of the bow and the LIGHT that the arrow or fletching is reflecting. 
You can likely see the FLETCHING but probably not the arrow itself while in flight. 
I can see my arrows from the moment they leave the bow to when they hit the target except when shooting in bright sunlight.


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## billk63 (Oct 13, 2010)

elkbow69 said:


> Yes you can see the flight of the arrow, some can, some cannot. It just depends on the speed of the bow and the LIGHT that the arrow or fletching is reflecting.
> You can likely see the FLETCHING but probably not the arrow itself while in flight.
> I can see my arrows from the moment they leave the bow to when they hit the target except when shooting in bright sunlight.


Same here and I'm shooting black fletching with an orange nock, mid280s. Some shots I don't see a thing but in the right lighting I can see it leave the bow all the way in.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

Shoot CXL Pros as well, somewhere around 295 fps out of my 60# / 28" DL setup. If the light is exactly right I can see them fly from about 1/2 way down range. Generally not indoors, but outdoors when the sun is coming from my right or left.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I can see sometimes beyond 30-40 yards when I shoot long ranges some arrows which not flying straight line but more like whirlpooling and I have also noticed these are random arrows but interestingly I am happy with POI at the end...must be a high FOC helps :set1_thinking:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

In the right lighting conditions I've observed pistol bullets travelling around 1000fps. But then again their path was VERY close to eye level.

Arrow flight at 275fps has also been fairly easy to observe with the light behind me.

-Grant


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

The first time we were sighting our muzzle loaders in for a hunt in Colorado one of my friends was using some big heavy 400+ grain bullet, I was watching the target with binoculars and he touched one off. From about 50 yds on I could see his bullet, at about 80 yds it started dropping like a rock,

Back to the arrow flight, my problem now is how do I get this thing tuned to fly well. The CXL has 100 grains on the front with the tip and insert and I am guessing about 32-34 gr. on the back with the insert and nock. Then I am shooting an ICE vane 3" x .3" @ 6.8 gr. each. It punched a perfect hole in the paper at 12'. The shop owner wasn't impressed when I told him that just because it punches a perfect hole at his set up it doesn't mean that it was still flying good at 10 yds.. Maybe it's a form issue, I hold the bow with just the pointer finger and thumb. I can usually tell when I am torquing the bow by the sight. I am shooting an Xpedition @ 61.2 # 29" draw with a Fang wrist strap release. Did not shoot these through the chono but I did shoot the shop owners arrows and his were 8-10 gr. lighter and got 228 fps. so I am guessing they should be in the 223-225 fps. range


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

You can either shoot paper or target long distance (50+), because these two most likely not mix-and-match.
My arrows groupping nice at 70 meters but if I would shoot them through paper they would tear ugly. Paper may be good only as a rough in to see how close or far is a tune...
Second, if you really want to check what they do on paper then do it at 6-7 meters (arrows in 400-450 spine range).


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## Skel37 (Oct 6, 2012)

Yes, it is entirely possible to see your arrow flight. I like to use lighted nocks in the evening to check how my arrows are flying.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I can see arrows in flight if I'm looking for them, but usually, I'm aiming at and are focused the target and don't see them. 
Also, my riser tends to kick a little to the left to block my view of the arrow.

Watching arrows fly is fun and relaxing, but usually I'm trying to hit something so I watch what I want to hit.

Allen


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## RickB4 (Apr 18, 2013)

I shoot with both eyes open and can see the arrow travel with my left eye,, I can tell when my arrows are not flying right. I can only tell how well the arrow flies when shooting 40 yards and further.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

I love the lighted nock idea, then I could show the shop owner how bad it is moving.

I don't notice my arrows most of the time except when there is an issue, when they start wobbling like they are now I notice. Hard part is both guys at the shop thought I was crazy and could not see it.

I also shoot with both eyes open.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Often one can see the arrow in fight, but your eyes may trick you as you see it "flash" away from you. Most often it will look nock low- low/left.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

Mahly said:


> Often one can see the arrow in fight, but your eyes may trick you as you see it "flash" away from you. Most often it will look nock low- low/left.


Good to know as that is one of the issues I do see, but as bad as it was it is not all an optical illusion. Sometimes I get a spiral effect or as BIGhun says a whirlpool effect. I think tonight I am going to take some powder and see if I am having a fletching contact issue. 
Thanks gang !!


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## pahunter1980 (Oct 17, 2010)

Try turning the nock on the arrows where you see a wobble the spine index could be different from the rest of them just turn the nock until they all group together


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

Could be as simple as fletching color causing this if all 3 aren't the same color. Many times though, peeking to watch arrow flight will cause a poor release which affects arrow flight.


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## Cbfastcar (May 19, 2015)

I can see mine but they are the fat x7 eclipse arrows, but if I stood from the side of a shooting line I can see people's arrows flying crazy but I can


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## Cbfastcar (May 19, 2015)

That's what I was about to say the only time you see your arrow is if you peek


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I know it's not the answer your looking for but have you tried bare shaft tuning. The bare shaft tuning process shows irregularities(problems)in your form as well as tuning.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Cbfastcar said:


> That's what I was about to say the only time you see your arrow is if you peek


That's not exactly accurate when you are talking about compound/release shooting. 

When I am shooting really well, the bow is weighted right, and I make a near flawless shot I actually pick up my arrow going over the rest and leaving the bow out of my peripheral vision. In that scenario I think a lot of the time I see the arrow going toward the target through the scope, but I've never investigated that to know if it's so or not. 

To the OP..........you're not crazy. Unless of course you keep patronizing a dealer that claims you're crazy to think you can see your arrow flight. Then you're crazy.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

ILOVE3D said:


> I know it's not the answer your looking for but have you tried bare shaft tuning. The bare shaft tuning process shows irregularities(problems)in your form as well as tuning.


I got to thinking about it and my first post really didn't answer your question about seeing the arrow in flight and being crazy. Like Lazarus said

"When I am shooting really well, the bow is weighted right, and I make a near flawless shot I actually pick up my arrow going over the rest and leaving the bow out of my peripheral vision. In that scenario I think a lot of the time I see the arrow going toward the target through the scope, but I've never investigated that to know if it's so or not."

I have stood behind other shooters and watched their arrow flight and yes, an arrow that has erratic flight is much easier to pick out than one that is tuned well. I also think I sometimes see the arrow or at least notice the fletching through my sight picture on long shots say 40 yards and further. On the closer ones I think the arrow is in the target before I pick it up in my peripheal.

The bare shaft remark was for part 2 or your post. There are many threads about tuning, walk back, french, creep, bare shaft, broadhead as well as paper and probably a few more to help confuse the matter. It's work getting it correct sometimes but well worth your time to learn how to do it yourself.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't see the arrow flight right out of the bow as well anymore because I shoot with a 4x lens and the follow through causes the first part to look weird but on longer shots as the arrow moves up above the scope and follow through I enjoy watching the arrow travel to the target. In fact I use all white or all orange fletching to watch it on its way. I have been shooting at 70 yards a lot lately working on my execution and that is a great distance to watch the arrow fly, on close 20 yd shots the arrow is just there so quick it isn't worth trying to watch.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks gang !!!

I am shooting the CXL Pro 350s which are a fat shaft with 2 orange and 1 black ICE vanes that are 3" x .3" with orange nocks. I don't think it is peeking as I have always been able to see the flight of my arrows. When they are flying good they are about impossible to see, but poor flight is easy to see for me. Now standing next to the shop owner as he shot my bow I could not see it as well but I could still see it. He was convinced I was crazy then.

Ummm bareshaft tuning, that is gonna hurt. 240.00 for a dozen CXL Pros with everything, I sure hate to start cutting vanes off. I am going to try powder and arrow clearance first, if I can't fix it that way I guess I will start shaving. I guess first I will have to pay attention to my form.

Thanks Again Dave


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## Dave V (Aug 13, 2008)

You can turn it around on this shop guy by saying "Yes, I know what you're saying if it's flying right, so if I can see it, it must be really bad wouldn't you agree?"


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## Highwaygun (Jun 29, 2011)

I watch my arrow on every shot enter my sight window and hit the target. My bow shots in the mid 270's and I shoot all white fletchhings with white nock. I think if a bow is to fast you can't do this as good but with my setup I can very easily. Also since I started watching the arrows flight I have started shooting ALOT better.


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## Highwaygun (Jun 29, 2011)

And to those saying you can only see an arrows flight that is poor that is bs. I can shoot bare shafts with fletched out to 30yds with the same poi and my grizztrick 2's have same poi out to 60 yds as field point. My bow is dead on tuned and I can see its flight plain ass day. Also gonna throw in I have better than 20/20 vision in both eyes also which might aid in this.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Back in the dark ages before paper tuning came down the pike, watching arrow flight was a popular tuning method. Only, you didn't watch your own arrow flight, you got someone else to watch it for you. And, not everyone is capable of watching arrow flight and providing meaningful input. Higher arrow speeds, smaller nocks, and something a lot less than 20/10 vision make it much more difficult for me nowadays.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

On a really good shot with me aiming at the right level to my eye sight - I catch a glimpse of the arrow going through the scope. But no way can I detect exactly what it is doing.

When I make a strong shot - I cannot ever see exactly what the arrow is doing in flight. I can pick it up mid to late in flight but its straightened uot by then.

I shoot a hinge - its a surprise.

I can punch a trigger and see it in flight, but Im expecting it and peeking. 

Now having someone stand behind me and tell me what my arrow is doing, or me doing that for someone else - I believe in.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> Good to know as that is one of the issues I do see, but as bad as it was it is not all an optical illusion. Sometimes I get a spiral effect or as BIGhun says a whirlpool effect. I think tonight I am going to take some powder and see if I am having a fletching contact issue.
> Thanks gang !!


Do you cant or shoot in wind because those are the two reasons I know for spiraling. I've seen people who unwittingly cant their compound push their own arrows right. I've also seen my own arrows pushed down and L/R in shooting 50-70 in wind since I shoot low pounds.

In close it's hard to pick out flight. You can see a wild kick particularly in a bareshaft. But I usually work with someone to see that. Far out like 30, 40 or so you can definitely pick up arrow flight. Too far you won't necessarily see it hit, you hear it. That's my 70 experience, you see a face splash and hear the pop.

One caveat, actually looking for the flight can result in form glitches. Collapsing to drop bow out of way. L/R tilt. etc. Ideally you just execute with eyes on target to aim and the arrow just shows up in your vision. But moving the bow to see it can add to problems.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

Azzurri said:


> Do you cant or shoot in wind because those are the two reasons I know for spiraling. I've seen people who unwittingly cant their compound push their own arrows right. I've also seen my own arrows pushed down and L/R in shooting 50-70 in wind since I shoot low pounds.
> 
> 
> In close it's hard to pick out flight. You can see a wild kick particularly in a bareshaft. But I usually work with someone to see that. Far out like 30, 40 or so you can definitely pick up arrow flight. Too far you won't necessarily see it hit, you hear it. That's my 70 experience, you see a face splash and hear the pop.
> ...


All of your thoughts were addressed in earlier post. So I am guessing you did NOT read my original post ?

I said 50 yd INDOOR range with plenty of NEW LED lighting.

I stood behind and stood on a bench and watched from above as someone else shot my bow.

As to the "just execute" that's what I was doing when I noticed the issue. I guess my peripheral vision is good enough that I just see it when it happens, I don't have to "look" for it. I can see it on a 20 yd shot on a BLACK target ie; Boar target. I will say I can't see it while shooting a bag target.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I take it you don't tune your own bow.....Hey, if it was my now it would have corrected days ago regardless of what someone thought.


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## Joe Ryan (Jun 8, 2014)

If you REALLY want to focus on arrow flight, a simple way is to anchor normally, aim, then look slightly left of your peep, then command (punch) the trigger or hinge. If you use a normal explosion ( surprise) release, the forward and sideward motion of the bow will obstruct your view of the arrow's path for a split second. I used this method for years trying to identify fletching contact... Give it a shot.


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## V3505 (Jan 31, 2013)

I can typically see my arrow in flight, but its a little sketchy since I have to ignore where the arrow is hitting (a BIG target is recommended). Bullet holes, IMO, don't mean a whole lot, because I can't shoot from every yard back to 20, without spending a week doing it and a lot of paper. Just a note about bare shaft tuning... I felt my arrow flight was good, even had two people watch to confirm. Looks good right.... wrong. Then I decided I would bare shaft tune after having issues with my BH last fall. So I shot a perfect bullseye in an NFAA five spot, followed it up with a bare shaft. The bare shaft hit 8 inches to the right at roughly a 45 degree angle. I found some info here on AT about tuning and learned a lot. All I can say is it's truly amazing how much fletches can correct. I did sacrifice one arrow, but was well worth it.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> I take it you don't tune your own bow.....Hey, if it was my now it would have corrected days ago regardless of what someone thought.


I thought this thread was about seeing the arrow in flight. 
I did fix the issue but only by going back to my GT Ultralights. I don't have the time to deal with the CXL's now. I have shoots or life going on every weekend now. Maybe this winter I will deal with them again.
And yes I will admit that tuning the way Xpedition wants you to tune is new to me. They want you to set the rest at a certain distance and then yoke tune to get proper flight. The shop owner that I shoot for thinks paper tuning is all you need to do, as I said earlier I told him of the issues with the flight so he stands next to me while I shoot and says they are shooting perfectly, so now he won't help because he thinks everything is fine. It pisses me off to no end because I have spent thousands in the past 7 months that I have been going there and now he says my bow/arrows are fine and there is nothing wrong. From my vision and my groups I know things are not fine.
The other 2 shops within reasonable driving distance are not an option. The one shop is mainly a Matthews dealer and they are just to arrogant and the other are great people but just don't know enough. So as I said I will try again this Winter. An added bonus is I am going to switch to a hinge this Winter so I will probably destroy all the CXL's trying to learn the hinge.
Thanks to all, Dave


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