# KSL/BEST form changes for barebow?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I can't shoot NTS barebow. Maybe I've been shooting barebow too long to make it work. I dunno. But the higher anchor of barebow screws it all up for me. I can easily transfer to my back with recurve. Do it all the time, can describe it, know how it feels, and even know why. But raise that hand a few inches and it's damn near impossible for me to feel my back become engaged - therefor no "transfer." 

For those who can, congratulations. If I could shoot barebow the way I shoot recurve, it would be all I do.


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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

So does anyone know how to make that happen? I switched to 3 under and I'm having a tough time working the back correctly. 

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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

I raise and pull my draw elbow back when at full draw. I can feel something. It definitely locks into place. Am I doing it right? No clue but if I don't things get ugly fast


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

ChefMatt said:


> So does anyone know how to make that happen? I switched to 3 under and I'm having a tough time working the back correctly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Rod suggests "engaging your back from the get go."


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

For me the transfer to holding is very subtle. The shoulder blade drops slightly. I only really felt it after using a clicker. I anchor with the index finger in the corner of the mouth and stringwalk. With a higher anchor I just cannot get the same feeling.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

I also have a tough time with back tension and a high anchor. In fact, a high anchor just always seems to feel uncomfortable and that uncomfortable feeling interferes with my shooting and my enjoyment of that style. I watched the Lancaster barebow video. It seems clear that many barebow shooters are having difficulty with engaging the back muscles. Demmer seems to have his back muscles engaged. Martin has a totally dead release indicating minimal back tension and Worthington has a dead release but a quick and intension follow through that disguises the nature of the release.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

arrowchucker222 said:


> I raise and pull my draw elbow back when at full draw. I can feel something. It definitely locks into place. Am I doing it right? No clue but if I don't things get ugly fast


I would be careful shooting like that. If you raise your elbow, you're loading the stress of the bow into your upper shoulders. That may cause injury long term.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> I would be careful shooting like that. If you raise your elbow, you're loading the stress of the bow into your upper shoulders. That may cause injury long term.


Might want to watch some video of Korean archers and check the position of their draw elbow.



> I watched the Lancaster barebow video. It seems clear that many barebow shooters are having difficulty with engaging the back muscles. Demmer seems to have his back muscles engaged. Martin has a totally dead release indicating minimal back tension and Worthington has a dead release but a quick and intension follow through that disguises the nature of the release.


Yup. Demmer and Stonebraker - IMO - are two of the best examples of back tension in the BB world right now. Two others are students of mine who shot world field - Mark Schlaudraff and Kim Hartman. Both have excellent technique. You can catch Mark's shooting with the boy's junior team and individual medal matches on YouTube.


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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

I haven't seen Stonebraker yet. Just checked YouTube, he does lots of tutorial work by the looks of it. That's an awesome lead, thank you. I'll check out your students too, impressive that Mark was competing internationally. 

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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

camperjim said:


> I also have a tough time with back tension and a high anchor. In fact, a high anchor just always seems to feel uncomfortable and that uncomfortable feeling interferes with my shooting and my enjoyment of that style. I watched the Lancaster barebow video. It seems clear that many barebow shooters are having difficulty with engaging the back muscles. Demmer seems to have his back muscles engaged. Martin has a totally dead release indicating minimal back tension and Worthington has a dead release but a quick and intension follow through that disguises the nature of the release.


Just because there is a dead release doesn't mean they don't have back tension. See *The Push 1.3 - IBO Masters* film around 26:00 for Dewayne mentioning that he has that checkpoint in his process.
I can see scapula rotation for Dewayne at 2:48 on the Lancaster championship video too. 

Bobby also mentioned his conscious focus is back tension in the Push film. He worked with me a little in Vegas on the practice range, and he is well aware of proper form for back tension, and he put his hands on my scapula and said I was not using my back muscles correctly (he could tell by my release before that anyway). I'm working through this now.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A dead release means you time your relaxation (of your back) with your release. It is in fact, a carefully timed loss of back tension. I can easily prove it with a blindfold and stretch band.

Not saying you can't shoot great scores doing that. Many people do.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ChefMatt said:


> I haven't seen Stonebraker yet. Just checked YouTube, he does lots of tutorial work by the looks of it. That's an awesome lead, thank you. I'll check out your students too, impressive that Mark was competing internationally.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


If Mark would have remembered his anchor point adjustment during the Gold Medal match, he very likely would have been a double gold medalist at world field in Dublin. Mental mistake. Not a technique one. Unfortunately I wasn't there in person to catch it and despite screaming through the computer screen at 4:00 a.m., he couldn't hear me.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Might want to watch some video of Korean archers and check the position of their draw elbow.


Respectfully, I believe we're talking about bare bow form with a higher anchor, not Olympic with a below chin anchor. Unless you are referring to Korean bare bow'ers? If raising your elbow doesn't hurt you, brilliant, keep doing what makes you shoot well. However I have spoken to people who have developed injuries shooting that way. Raising the draw elbow for an under the face anchor vs. raising the elbow for an on the face anchor moves the stress of the bow into different areas. The way it was explained to me by a friend who studied kinesiology, the higher your raise your arm under tension, the more stress you put on the upper trapezius, levator scapulae, and rhomboid muscles. Repeating such movement under tension could cause injury. Some people are fine doing it that way but not all.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Guess I was referring to the draw, not the anchor.


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## 10X Archer (Mar 7, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> A dead release means you time your relaxation (of your back) with your release. It is in fact, a carefully timed loss of back tension. I can easily prove it with a blindfold and stretch band.
> 
> Not saying you can't shoot great scores doing that. Many people do.


This may be right, but it not a recommended thing to do. As evident in KSL's website, books etc that you are supposed to maintain backtension for a couple seconds after the release. There is little point to have backtension if your just going to let it go when it matters most.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Guess I will have to post a video (If I remember how) of my wife she does KSL shot cycle with a high anchor. It really wasn't a big deal to go from her OLY anchor to second finger in the corner of her mouth. and still keep the shoulders down get to full draw and then expand thru the shot. She"s been doing it for 5 years


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I find the open stance and front shoulder position to be the only way I can make a high anchor work. With a classic T stance I get far too much interference on my face and more variance in draw length. 
Transfer is subtle if present at all.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

I can't get any kind of back tension with corner of the mouthing it, I have to anchor farther back to get any illusion of back tension.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

10X Archer said:


> This may be right, but it not a recommended thing to do. As evident in KSL's website, books etc that you are supposed to maintain backtension for a couple seconds after the release. There is little point to have backtension if your just going to let it go when it matters most.


Having what you are calling a dead release may not really be a dead release. Some of us have limited motion in our backs, so we don't have our hands upon release flying back to our deltoid.

If you saw me shoot, you may think I shoot with a dead release, but I can assure you I'm definitely, activating my back, it's just that my body structure doesn't allow my hand to go beyond my ear.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Interesting. I've been experimenting with both a more open stance and moving my anchor back. Good to see I've got company!

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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

wiatrog said:


> Interesting. I've been experimenting with both a more open stance and moving my anchor back. Good to see I've got company!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk


After reading this, I tried a more open stance. My nose is grateful, and comfort/accuracy improved. I'll have to try a further back anchor next. What do you typically use? A molar? 

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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

ChefMatt said:


> I'll have to try a further back anchor next. What do you typically use? A molar?


Exactly. I used to anchor the tip of my index finger behind my eye tooth, but I've started experimenting with the 1st and 2nd molar.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Yeah the molar sounds far back enough. I anchor there and my thumb hooks around the corner of my jawline. My thumb and pinky finger i have touching when I shoot so that leads to me being able to do that. Could try with the second knuckle of the thumb pressed into the back of the jaw?


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

This a pic at fulldraw. I think my elbow is good but any help is always appreciated. 
I did win MN state indoor on Sunday with that elbow.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

https://www.facebook.com/gary.mccain/posts/1304147152955679?notif_t=like&notif_id=1491449734031231

maybe this will help


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Good point about joint mobility and back tension. I can see where that could cause something that looks similar to a dead release. Having said that, I see alot of dead releases, perhaps even much more common than a strong back tension follow through.

I too try to use NTS, however it gets tweaked a bit for barebow. I don't think the elbow is an issue as long as the forearm is aligned with the arrow. I draw and load as usual, then raise to the face anchor, and then transfer. Transfer is a very slight movement of the scapula. I didn't get it until a fellow coach helped by putting his hand on my back until I could feel it. I do think that the higher BB anchor does make it difficult to get solid bracing, and perhaps for some not entirely possible due to their anatomy.


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## Michigan Dave (Dec 28, 2005)

Congratulations, Chucker, on winning the MN State shoot. That's some fine photos, too.

I am still interested in how you are doing with checking out those SF 46# limbs that were going to chrono. Any great revelations?

Michigan Dave


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

Michigan Dave said:


> Congratulations, Chucker, on winning the MN State shoot. That's some fine photos, too.
> 
> I am still interested in how you are doing with checking out those SF 46# limbs that were going to chrono. Any great revelations?
> 
> Michigan Dave


 haven't had time to do squat! Shoot , work, Honey do jobs. Rinse and repeat....


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

wiatrog said:


> Rod suggests "engaging your back from the get go."


Hello and X2 on Ros statement. [ Later


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

you can't load your back first and use the KSL shot cycle


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

2413gary said:


> https://www.facebook.com/gary.mccain/posts/1304147152955679?notif_t=like¬if_id=1491449734031231
> 
> maybe this will help


This is awesome. Thanks!


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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

Could yall go into more detail on the difference between loading your back from the get go vs ksl shot cycle. How does ksl prevent early back loading. How does Rod accomplish early back loading? 

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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This is Sandy speaking;
Your question is not easily answered with words. It is best to demo both techniques personally. I have shot both techniques and done well with both. I prefer the KSL as I feel it is a much stronger technique if done correctly. I also feel it has a more consistent draw length.
The KSL technique is designed to be used with the skeletal body system with very little use of muscle movement. Your body is lined up to use the bones. Bones are stronger than muscles. The draw weight of your bow is held by the bones not the muscles. To get into the scapular motion you are engaging the Latissimus Doris muscle (located under the arm pit) to push the scapula bone and keep it in a holding position throughout the shot. When the scapula is in the holding position with relaxed fingers the bow arm should extend with nothing to spare. The fingers drop off the string upon release. When the fingers drop off the string the scapula pulls the hand back with a powerful force. One fluid backward motion. The release is not forced by the archer as their arm and hand is in a relaxed position. The holding of the scapula jerks the arm back like a spring. It is a very relaxed and powerful motion. It is impossible to load the scapula from the "get go". It is a transferring of motion from the front of the body to the scapula then the scapula completes the draw of the bow without the help of arm muscles by pulling the elbow back. It is impossible to get into the scapula with the shoulders up, both must be down. 

Loading the back from the "get go" involves the Rhomboid muscles in the upper shoulders. This type of shot involves arm muscles to hold the position along with the back muscles. Upon release the fingers are opened giving a forward motion then a backward follow through motion. That is a two step release, one can not go forward and backwards at the same time so it is a two step motion. The dead release is a one step motion as the hand is kept on the face while only the fingers are opened. 

Summary of both are very brief. Hope this helps to answer your question.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

I don't know anybody that teaches KSL technique here and I hear even some Target Archers struggle to make it work, when I started I followed McKinneys book and some personal training from Coach Kim which is a very simplistic/efficient approach.

My impression is that without a clicker it's always going to be bit of a Form compromise, I don't obsess over follow through and it's just a natural reaction to opposing forces, I've used a clicker a few times for training and it's not quite the same feel, it's a more subtle balance in the Rhomboids and less dynamic follow through.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

ChefMatt said:


> Could yall go into more detail on the difference between loading your back from the get go vs ksl shot cycle. How does ksl prevent early back loading. How does Rod accomplish early back loading?


You can learn more about the KSL technique here: http://kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/KSLShotCycle/KSLShotCycle-USA.html

Rod Jenkins gives clinics, was on a DVD series called "Masters of the Barebow", a more recently was on the podcast I mentioned above.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Stephen Morley said:


> I don't know anybody that teaches KSL technique here and I hear even some Target Archers struggle to make it work, when I started I followed McKinneys book and some personal training from Coach Kim which is a very simplistic/efficient approach.
> 
> My impression is that without a clicker it's always going to be bit of a Form compromise, I don't obsess over follow through and it's just a natural reaction to opposing forces, I've used a clicker a few times for training and it's not quite the same feel, it's a more subtle balance in the Rhomboids and less dynamic follow through.


One does need a KSL Coach to learn the scapular motion. There are several steps that must be learned over a period of time to get it under control. It takes obedience to maintain the technique. I also use a clicker to train with to maintain a consistent draw length.


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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

Yall, that is amazing info. Sandy, really great description. I'm trying my darndest to learn on my own but I'm certainly interested in a coach. I'll have to find one, anybody know a good KSL coach in the Atlanta area? Or the Archery Learning Center has several coaches in Snellville, off chance that anyone knows a ksl coach with that group? 

What do I need to be asking about to ensure the coach is comfy teaching a higher anchor Barebow variant of ksl? 

Thanks so much yall! 

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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I would caution anyone against trying to learn NTS on their own. In fact, most NTS certified coaches don't understand it well enough to teach it IMO. I just went through a L4 NTS course, and even some of those folks - who at a minimum have been L3NTS coaches for at least two years - didn't understand it very well at all. 

So whatever person you find to work with, make sure they have some successful NTS archers already.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I would caution anyone against trying to learn NTS on their own. In fact, most NTS certified coaches don't understand it well enough to teach it IMO. I just went through a L4 NTS course, and even some of those folks - who at a minimum have been L3NTS coaches for at least two years - didn't understand it very well at all.
> 
> So whatever person you find to work with, make sure they have some successful NTS archers already.


This is Sandy speaking;
I agree that one needs to find a serious coach. And it takes discipline and dedication on the part of the archer. It takes serious training and lots of time to get it.


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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

As long as I get to stick with barebow, I'm cool with the commitment. 

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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Gary always a joy watching Sandy's Form, she has one of the best in Barebow circles.

I wont bother with KSL method, just because nobody here to teach it. 

I'm happy with a more simplistic shot sequence and it's working well for me, I'm close enough to Finland/Sweden to shoot with these top guys (Trained in Sweden last year and I'm working in Finland at moment). A good and informative thread :thumbs_up


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

It is good to experiment and implement elements of form that work for you. Very few archers will have textbook form. Let your scores and level of enjoyment be your guide.

Regarding coaches who can do or teach NTS barebow, there are few if any. Best to find a good coach with an open mind. I would just be very up-front about what you want to do. You might also be able to find a good target archer who does NTS who can talk you through it, watching you as you try.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This is Sandy Speaking; 
Thank you Steve.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

j.conner said:


> It is good to experiment and implement elements of form that work for you. Very few archers will have textbook form. Let your scores and level of enjoyment be your guide.
> 
> Regarding coaches who can do or teach NTS barebow, there are few if any. Best to find a good coach with an open mind. I would just be very up-front about what you want to do. You might also be able to find a good target archer who does NTS who can talk you through it, watching you as you try.


Hello and X2 [ Later


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

j.conner said:


> Let your scores and level of enjoyment be your guide.


Well said.

I know I'm not as naturally talented or technically as good Form as some others but I know where I am at this moment is the best I can be, I can enjoy my shooting regardless of the tourney result.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sandy's coach (Don Rabska) asked me when I was going to use the KSL method. I said not a chance I was not disciplined enough.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Ooh! I didn't realize Don coached barebow as well. I may have to pay him a visit since I'm in SoCal...

Thanks for everyone's input on this thread and especially the video. I think it really helped me out during the 300 round today. =]


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Don didn't teach or coach Sandy barebow just the KSL style for her OLY adventure. when that was over she asked what she needed to do different to go back to her barebow archery and keep the KSL form. He gave her a silly little smirk and said move your anchor back up DUH. NOTHING MORE OR LESS.  If you want a lesson not sure how often Don comes to Woodly park since he moved to Prescott Az.

Gary


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

2413gary said:


> If you want a lesson not sure how often Don comes to Woodly park since he moved to Prescott Az.


Doh! Guess I missed that boat. Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Don didn't teach or coach Sandy barebow just the KSL style for her OLY adventure. when that was over she asked what she needed to do different to go back to her barebow archery and keep the KSL form. He gave her a silly little smirk and said move your anchor back up DUH. NOTHING MORE OR LESS.  If you want a lesson not sure how often Don comes to Woodly park since he moved to Prescott Az.
> 
> Gary


For someone who is already shooting NTS with a recurve, there really shouldn't be much more to it than that. 

Following our L4NTS course, I shot my barebow using NTS form for several weeks. It works fine.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Exactly


limbwalker said:


> For someone who is already shooting NTS with a recurve, there really shouldn't be much more to it than that.
> 
> Following our L4NTS course, I shot my barebow using NTS form for several weeks. It works fine.


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## adamstephens (Mar 5, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> If Mark would have remembered his anchor point adjustment during the Gold Medal match, he very likely would have been a double gold medalist at world field in Dublin. Mental mistake. Not a technique one. Unfortunately I wasn't there in person to catch it and despite screaming through the computer screen at 4:00 a.m., he couldn't hear me.


John

I've watched the video. Does Mark normally use two anchors, swapping between recurve and barebow?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

adamstephens said:


> John
> 
> I've watched the video. Does Mark normally use two anchors, swapping between recurve and barebow?


No. We switched his anchor for a couple of reasons earlier in the season and he just made a mental error and reverted back to his old anchor - which was lower - resulting in the high arrows.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

2413gary said:


> https://www.facebook.com/gary.mccain/posts/1304147152955679?notif_t=like¬if_id=1491449734031231
> 
> maybe this will help


Gary & Sandy: that video was super helpful. Do you have a video from the other side so we can see the drawing arm motion and anchor as well?

Thanks,
-Greg


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> No. We switched his anchor for a couple of reasons earlier in the season and he just made a mental error and reverted back to his old anchor - which was lower - resulting in the high arrows.


Poor kid. Must be a lot of pressure being on the world stage. Well, he'll not forget that again!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

wiatrog said:


> Poor kid. Must be a lot of pressure being on the world stage. Well, he'll not forget that again!


Nah, he's fine. One of the most resilient students I've ever worked with. Besides, he brought home a gold and silver medal from world field. I think he'll be fine.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

no don't have one but will 
post one might take a few days


wiatrog said:


> Gary & Sandy: that video was super helpful. Do you have a video from the other side so we can see the drawing arm motion and anchor as well?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Greg


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

2413gary said:


> no don't have one but will
> post one might take a few days


Thanks. Appreciate the effort!

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