# Carbon fiber riser!!!



## TimClark (Sep 25, 2004)

Actually I believe it has already been done. Anyways a lot of the good bows that are out right now, ARE GOOD BOWS, and if you are saying that it is really a 100 dollar bow, I believe you can be proven wrong.


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## barico (Nov 21, 2004)

Who wants a light bow? Not me... I would want one for stiffness and the cool factor.


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## TimClark (Sep 25, 2004)

Yeah I also like a heavy bow instead of a light one, it is easier to hold still with a heavier bow.


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Greenhorn made a carbon riser called the emerald star. Retails for a lot of money. Resells for peanuts.


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## saddlemaker (Jan 12, 2005)

*Got one*

I shoot two carbon riser bows. They are both high country compouunds. For me the weight is awsome. They weigh a little more than a recurve. I Hunt a lot of tough country and every pound sure counts after a few hours of climbing !! I have been wondering how much more accuracy I would gain by having 2 more lbs of mass weight. I am shooting 280's +.
I do believe they are over priced for $10 worth of carbon fiber and resin. !!! but apparently it is whatever the market will bear. I also know that in this day and age it takes darn good margins to stay in business . That can include the manufacturer, as well as the retailer and sometimes a distributer stuck in there aswelll all needing their 30-50%.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Question is how light do you recurve guys want to go


Wrong direction, but thanks anyway...



> I can get a dam good rifle for $1000! and there is real live reserch and development had in making that product. Alot more parts being machined to tolerances no bow company could ever imagine and having to cover the insurance liability to boot for producing fire arms. So everyone out there let me have it or ban together and say enough is enough. A stand out company needs to be formed and produce a product far more advanced than any other company and keep prices at a working mans level.


Real live R&D going into a rifle? Forgive me, but aren't Remington and Winchester's top selling rifles the exact same models that they produced over 40 years ago? How much R&D have they had to do since then? And what do you think their profit margin is on those guns?

Okay, I'm from Missouri on this one. You go right ahead and offer those $100 risers that shoot as well as my X-factor, and I'll be the first to congratulate you. But I don't think you're giving the engineers at a few top bow companies enough credit for their products. To say that there isn't real live R&D going into the best risers being made today is just foolish.

Also, how much have you already spent in R&D, or do you work for free?  

John.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

It's pretty obvious WIHoyt that you have never actually made anything before. Much less taken an idea from concept to production.

A 6061 T6 aluminum billet for a riser is 25"x4"x2" at 0.1 lbs / cu. in. at $3.00 / lbs. and that's before you even get it off the truck to work on it.

I think you can do the math there and see that you have mispoken quite severely. The costs to develope carbon fiber products are orders of magnitude more than the simple machining we have now days.

The concept of a $10 cost is completely rediculous. The cheapest you can get uni prepreg is $12.00/lbs right now. 3k cloth is $40/lbs. and you haven't even started to try to do anything with it. Just a prepreg freezer and the shop space it sits on will cost you more that $10/bow  

In the old days we'd have called this trolling, but in this instace, I'm sadly afraid that there are some gross misconceptions being floated here, LOL!

Cheers,
Pete


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## atyau (Oct 11, 2004)

Leighton said:


> Greenhorn made a carbon riser called the emerald star. Retails for a lot of money. Resells for peanuts.



Actually Leighton the Emerald Star was manufactured by an Irish company called "CarboFast" they have since gone out of business, and from my understanding this riser was a contributing factor (too much R&D $$ not enough sales I guess....).
I also have to agree with the rest, heavier riser = better (for me)...


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

Carbon Risers...

I also have my eyes on this idea.

The Emerals Star was made by Carbofast. The first one I heard of was made in Ukraine. I remember an Ukainian archer shooting with a copy of the radian but with no holes...  

A slovenian company made some in the mis 90's. And a French attempt was made in the late 90's. From what I know none is still here. The only "successful" company with carbon is High Country...

I think the price of a conventionnaly constructed composite riser is too expensive and the light weight is actually a negative point as several people pointed out already...

I have my ideas, but I am keeping them to myself ... until I can do something with them...


TomG


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## Xander (Dec 4, 2003)

atyau said:


> Actually Leighton the Emerald Star was manufactured by an Irish company called "CarboFast" they have since gone out of business, and from my understanding this riser was a contributing factor (too much R&D $$ not enough sales I guess....).
> I also have to agree with the rest, heavier riser = better (for me)...



CARBOFAST is defenatly not out off bussiness. They stopped the production of the emarald star 1 and 2, still availeble though. But are now producing very good quality stabilasation systems...


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

KG Archery in the UK also make an all-carbon recurve riser.

Been used by some good shooters, but never actually took off...


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

It's definitely been done before and never really took off for whatever reasons.


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## TJ Mason (Mar 25, 2004)

As many postings here have indicated, there's no great demand for lighter risers. But if you could build a carbon riser with the same weight as a typical aluminium riser, the greater strength might interest the market.

The one area where I believe someone could get real traction in the riser market is by guaranteeing that their riser will not twist. There's currently a lot of (unfounded) paranoia about the straightness of risers. If you could build a very strong riser that's immune to twisting, and underwrite such a guarantee, then there may be some real interest.


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## J-san (Oct 12, 2004)

That's a pretty interesting idea - having an all carbon riser. In defense of having a lightweight riser, wouldn't it be good to have a light riser and then integrate a system of weights that the user could install themself? That way, having a lightweight carbon riser, the shooter can fine-tune the amount of weight he/she wants on the bow, and where this weight will be for good balance. IIRC, there is some company (Spigarelli??) that has an aluminum riser that incorporates counter balance weights that can be placed in different areas of the riser. Oh well, just an idea that ran thru my head as I read this thread.


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

J-san said:


> That's a pretty interesting idea - having an all carbon riser. In defense of having a lightweight riser, wouldn't it be good to have a light riser and then integrate a system of weights that the user could install themself? That way, having a lightweight carbon riser, the shooter can fine-tune the amount of weight he/she wants on the bow, and where this weight will be for good balance. IIRC, there is some company (Spigarelli??) that has an aluminum riser that incorporates counter balance weights that can be placed in different areas of the riser. Oh well, just an idea that ran thru my head as I read this thread.


IIRC its called the X-Factor. I won't buy one for two reasons, 1)the placement of the stabilizer hole, 2)the price.


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## Jim McPhail (Jan 8, 2005)

Leighton said:


> IIRC its called the X-Factor. I won't buy one for two reasons, 1)the placement of the stabilizer hole, 2)the price.


No, the X-Factor just has a neutral weight distribution designed into it. Spigarelli DID make a riser (2001 V.B.S. and Explorer) that had weight inserts. Bernadini and Best makes them too.


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Jim McPhail said:


> No, the X-Factor just has a neutral weight distribution designed into it. Spigarelli DID make a riser (2001 V.B.S. and Explorer) that had weight inserts. Bernadini and Best makes them too.


I was referring to the fact that the X-Factor is one of the lightest risers around, if not the lightest.


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## hoyt_for_life (Dec 10, 2004)

who would even think of shooting a xfactor when theres an aerotec waiting for you,
if you do make a carbon fiber riser dont go to extreme, i find people dont trust things that are to extreme, i.e. the variable www.ide-teknik.com and that compound thing http://www.hitecarchery.com/index.htm. i sugest doing a merlin and makeing a copy of a hoyt desighn and make it out of carbon fibre then once your a trusted brand try some different things.

if risers are so cheep to make could you make me a new aerotec or 2 

didnt yamaha make a limited edition carbon fibre riser for their 100th anaversary but found it to expensive to continue.


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

hoyt_for_life said:


> who would even think of shooting a xfactor when theres an aerotec waiting for you.


Obviously at least two ladies who are representing the US in this years World Indoors (all three maybe? Was Kathleen Loesch shooting an X-Factor?)


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Not to mention two of the junior ladies and one of the senior men seem to prefer the xfactor.

tom


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## tomcat (Oct 23, 2003)

High Country did this....it was a flop.

Too light, too flexible.

Something about a 5lb finished rig that is magical...anything less, and too wobbly, anything more and it's just extra.

Too light equals noise, and instability. Too heavy...well you are just carrying more, no harm no foul.
I prefer a fairly heavy bow.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> who would even think of shooting a xfactor when theres an aerotec waiting for you


Answer: anyone who's mind is open enough to try one...? Because once you do, the answer is obvious.

Have you even shot an X-factor H.F.L.?

John.


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## Joenvern (Dec 26, 2004)

> High Country did this....it was a flop.


You might want to call High Country up and let them know.  Have you ever tried one, my wifes High Country is quiter than my Ultratec. As for lighter is better, I would agree. It seems to me the less wieght you have to carry on a ten mile hike into the mountains the better. I guess for you flat landers that's not much of a worry.  
If your bow is used more for paper killin than wieght isn't a negative.
Just my humble opinion.
Remember, opinions are like A--holes every has one and mine is the only one that doesn't stink.


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## bigtim (May 26, 2004)

*not really...*

high country's trouble comes from buying the carbon riser technology from diamond, (then diamond sold out to bowtech), but that technology is not perfected yet...there are crops of good bows and then a batch comes out that breaks for no reason...if you have one of the good ones they will last forever though


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

WIHoyt said:


> A stand out company needs to be formed and produce a product far more advanced than any other company and keep prices at a working mans level. "Because thats what we are."


If you think you can do it then go for it! You know what you can sell a bow for and what your costs are. If the numbers look good, then do it.

There are several markets. The largest being compound hunting bows. If you are limiting yourself to recurves there are still several markets. Hunting bows, both high end and low end. Beginner target bows. High end Olympic and barebows.

Who is doing the design work, or are you just going to make copies? Before you go too far do some patent searches to make sure you aren't going to infringe on any patents. (If you don't you will get sued and will loose everything you own really quickly. Form a corporation to protect your personal assets.)

People will always find reasons for you to not try. I like to see people start a business and if they believe they can pull it off then they should go for it.

On the other hand Pete (c3hammer) is a toolmaker and has a pretty good idea of what is involved in making a riser. If he thinks your estimates are off I'd go back and have a closer look.


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## Welshman (Oct 5, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Answer: anyone who's mind is open enough to try one...? Because once you do, the answer is obvious.
> 
> Have you even shot an X-factor H.F.L.?
> 
> John.


Did you buy your X-Factor?

I would like to try one first before I spend the cash but where I live, no proshops stock any recurve equipment. That makes it hard to try things.
With the stabilizer hole where it is, dont your fingers hit the stabilizer? I have long fingers and would find that to be very annoying.


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## toxoph (Mar 24, 2005)

hoyt_for_life said:


> didnt yamaha make a limited edition carbon fibre riser for their 100th anaversary but found it to expensive to continue.


I think it was called the Centennial, about $3500, gold plated clicker included!


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## WIHoyt (Nov 22, 2004)

Well I had thought this thread had passed and everyone was against it. Well so everyone knows we threw the idea out there to see what kind of response we would get and you all only remebered the flaws of the past. So we swiched gears and are now making carbon parts for midget and sprint cars. Wing covers made of kevlar to protect the wings from clay chunks form the tires. Wheel covers, shock covers,body panels and just about anything anyone wants made of composites that fit into the rules. We are in production now and employee 3 fabricators and 1 engineer who also drives a midget sponsered by our company. So as usual the archery world is sold on the idea that it takes X amount to make which it doesnt, it take X time to make which it shouldnt and your going to pay X+ because you all will.


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## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

Not every one was against it.


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## Armchair Archer (Mar 12, 2005)

baldmountain said:


> If you think you can do it then go for it! You know what you can sell a bow for and what your costs are. If the numbers look good, then do it.
> 
> There are several markets. The largest being compound hunting bows. If you are limiting yourself to recurves there are still several markets. Hunting bows, both high end and low end. Beginner target bows. High end Olympic and barebows.
> 
> ...



I agree with Geoff, just don't use your house as collateral, lol
And if you need any product testers, i shoot a 68" bow with 25" riser !!!


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

WIHoyt said:


> So as usual the archery world is sold on the idea that it takes X amount to make which it doesnt, it take X time to make which it shouldnt and your going to pay X+ because you all will.


So prove us wrong. I love being proved wrong. Means I learned something... 

Have a read through this thread:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115771

to see the trials and tribulations one man went through to make a bow he wanted to. The main point is that he found that it cost and astronomically high amount of money to build the bow he wanted to sell to other people.


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## WIHoyt (Nov 22, 2004)

There isnt enough time in the day anymore to play with making archery equipment. Had we decided to go that route that would be fine and we would prove that it can be done. No one here saw the designs our eng. put together. Was it 100% carbon? NO. Was its A cheap foam core like Others have tried? NO. Will this riser still get made? probably not!


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

If you truly felt that the design was profitable and/or worthwhile to attempt, you would have made it.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

WIHoyt said:


> There isnt enough time in the day anymore to play with making archery equipment. Had we decided to go that route that would be fine and we would prove that it can be done. No one here saw the designs our eng. put together. Was it 100% carbon? NO. Was its A cheap foam core like Others have tried? NO. Will this riser still get made? probably not!



Who cares? Oh, and most buyers nowadays know what they are buying. It's called being an educated consumer.


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## barico (Nov 21, 2004)

Leighton said:


> If you truly felt that the design was profitable and/or worthwhile to attempt, you would have made it.


Absolutly!


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## TJ Mason (Mar 25, 2004)

Leighton said:


> If you truly felt that the design was profitable and/or worthwhile to attempt, you would have made it.


Not necessarily. Start-up costs are a killer, getting venture capital involves swimming with sharks, and you can't always continue to make a living while getting a new business initiative started. It sounds like the design had real technical merit, but the business realities have stiffed it. Unfortunately, that's neither new nor rare -- I've been there a few times, trying to bring some of my software ideas to the market.


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

TJ,

I believe my point was that if the inventors thought the design would be successful, they would have gone through with it regardless of what some internet archers thought.

Note that successful implies profitability or at least enough to pay the rent and be a rewarding venture.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

He comes on here insulting our buying intelligence and then expects us to just agree with his carbon riser theory. I really don't think so. As a consumers, people want choices. They want choices between stiff (dead risers) or soft (lively) risers. They want choices of colour, grip style, limb allignment system design, plunger, stabilizer hole positions, grip geometry. 

Mostly, it's the possibility of choice. Most risers are priced relatively close in comparison to quality. You are paying for an idea. Someone had to make that idea into reality and make it work. Idea's are worth alot of money when they become reality. Just ask artists.

Now, if you have an idea. Don't insult our intelligence about price or anything else. Try and make your idea a reality and see if people will pay for it. Of course if you are scared that it will bomb. Why bother telling us about it in the first place. You've already sealed your ideas own destiny by what you feel.

Dylan


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