# Martin Jaguar T/D Recurve arrived...



## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

I have an inquiry in with Martin on this bow. It arrived without a string, without limb bolts to secure the limbs to the riser, without an owner's manual, and the limbs do not appear to have been finish sanded or finish applied to them. The wood appears unprotected on the edges. The limb bolt holes in the riser have not been tapped either... not sure how the bolts would secure in their respective holes without threads. "?" 

The box indicates: "Made in the USA" however. The riser is the non-advertised "APG" Camo, not the "Next". The box appears to indicate this is probably a compound riser though, given the "80% letoff" comment. 

I've ordered the "Next" Camo bow as well... we'll see how it arrives. 

Yeah, I know... pix a little later. I'm a little busy at the moment... two of my three black powder toys arrived too, and require my fingerprints be placed on 'em.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

They're ontop of their game at Martin. I just got a call back from them and received an authorization number to return the bow to them and they'll make it right and get it sent back to me as soon as they can. 

Chit happens sometimes, that's ok when they're willing to take care of it right away for me.

Yeah... pix are still comin'... took 'em, but wanna get this bow headed back ASAP, headed to the shipping store now.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Back it goes...*

Joel was really good on the phone, called me back quickly and will tend to the needs of my bow. He sounded a little confused as to how the bow made it out incomplete. That's ok... they're taking care of it for me. 

Anyhow... here's some shots of what the bow looks like a little closer than the website's photo depicts.










































The real question now is... which bow will get here first? The "Next" camo bow I ordered from the Bowhunter's Superstore, or this one coming back from Martin after they do their thing?


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## Feral Donkey (Nov 6, 2005)

Next time get a Quinn.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

As a new product development department manager in a manufacturing company I know well the nightmare of kicking off a new product line.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Ok... I'll bite...*



Feral Donkey said:


> Next time get a Quinn.


what's a "Quinn"? 

I bought this bow to have for a "take along" when I'm on the bike and want to have a bow along. It suits me just fine for that purpose, thank you. :darkbeer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Yeah... it happens...*



Eldermike said:


> As a new product development department manager in a manufacturing company I know well the nightmare of kicking off a new product line.


The folks at Martin are good people, and make a very nice bow... sometimes, stuff happens. It's all good, and ten years from now, it'll be a nice tale of what happened with this one.


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

It's got the bearing cup for the compound limb,same as my early Firecat.
Will interesting to finaly hear how it's shoots when it comes back.
Cheers.


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## SCS (Jun 27, 2005)

Ratdog, Quinns are a cast riser take down made in Texas. Really nice bow for the money.
Steve


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Ratdog68 said:


> The folks at Martin are good people, and make a very nice bow... sometimes, stuff happens. It's all good, and ten years from now, it'll be a nice tale of what happened with this one.


Yep, I agree. I have a dream catcher and a few other Martins. Most recent is a firecat, I intend to shoot some 3D this summer. I also have a JaguarTD on backorder. They are good people. Oh, almost forgot my grandkids, I got them both martin long bows this past Christmas.


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## DeanRM (Mar 13, 2007)

I got a Jaguar T/D about 2 months ago, they are great bows, espically for the money. You can get really clean arrow flight with the 'cut way past center' riser and the elevated rest.

Martin is #1 in customer service. They will definately take care of you!

Dean


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Thanks,*



SCS said:


> Ratdog, Quinns are a cast riser take down made in Texas. Really nice bow for the money.
> Steve


Never heard the name before.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Got BOW !!*



Ratdog68 said:


> Joel was really good on the phone, called me back quickly and will tend to the needs of my bow. He sounded a little confused as to how the bow made it out incomplete. That's ok... they're taking care of it for me.
> 
> Anyhow... here's some shots of what the bow looks like a little closer than the website's photo depicts.
> 
> ...


Looks like the BowHunter's Superstore wins that race. I called Martin yesterday and spoke with Joel... although the bow had been delivered and signed for at Martin on Tuesday... he hadn't seen my bow yet.

Today, my second Jaguar in "Next" camo arrived. It showed up "complete"... although... it still appears that the edges of these limbs are not "finished". Ok... that may be according to MY standards... seeing I'm applying finish to my bow at present. My eye may be a little more "critical" than it used to be... but, a couple of small slivers of wood on the edges of the limbs, and they appear to be devoid of finish. 

This bow arrived with all the "parts" and manual, it went together without a hitch, fit was good. It has a string included, as well as a rest, and a manual. It's definately a "different" camo pattern than my first one was. 

It's exactly what I wanted it to be (except, MAYBE for the limbs' finish level), a good/solid T/D bow to bring along on the bike. It feels nice... will fling a few arrows through it tomorrow at the range. It's a very nice bow for the price. Ok... now that I've completed building my first longbow (from scratch)... my eye has become a little more critical for the detail of a bow... I know... it's a "production" bow.... offered up for a little more than the materials cost I pay for one I make. And... it's a little on the "heavy side", given the metal riser.

All that to say... if you want a good solid bow for very little money... the Martin Jaguar is good value for the money spent. I'm very pleased with it.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Hey... I just got mine too. Everything came. But I thought it was odd too that the sides of limbs were unsealed.

Do you plan to shoot off the shelf or with the rest? I'm waiting for my 3River's SRF sighting system to decide which I'd rather do.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Feral Donkey said:


> Next time get a Quinn.


As you can see by my avatar I am a Martin kind of guy having shot many of their models, both trad and compound over the years. However what is happening to you is unacceptable! Getting a compound riser with unfinished limbs, no string etc. Then when you return it and get it back the limbs are still unfinished. If I were you I'd go do a google search for Quinns archery, check out their line of bows, pick one that will suit your intended needs and buy one. You will get a great bow from good folks, made in the USA and it will be right the first time. Send the Martin back, get a refund and then wait a year or so til they get the bugs worked out if you still want to buy one. The list of problems you can see is crazy, what else is wrong with it that you can't see?


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*No...*



Old Sarge said:


> As you can see by my avatar I am a Martin kind of guy having shot many of their models, both trad and compound over the years. However what is happening to you is unacceptable! Getting a compound riser with unfinished limbs, no string etc. Then when you return it and get it back the limbs are still unfinished. If I were you I'd go do a google search for Quinns archery, check out their line of bows, pick one that will suit your intended needs and buy one. You will get a great bow from good folks, made in the USA and it will be right the first time. Send the Martin back, get a refund and then wait a year or so til they get the bugs worked out if you still want to buy one. The list of problems you can see is crazy, what else is wrong with it that you can't see?


I haven't gotten the one back which I sent back to Martin... I ordered up two of these bows. The SECOND bow also arrived with unfinished limbs, although was "complete" (otherwise). This one is a little noisy, but shoots fairly good. I've already added the fur strips where the string meets the limbs' tips, and have added some fur string silencers. It's still considerably noisier than my X-200 is. As I was heading out from the range... I added a "LimbSaver" coil stabilizer. I'll probably have to add a couple more LimbSaver dots to quiet it down a little more. 

When I get the first bow back from Martin, I'll see how I like what they've done... I'll also talk to 'em about the condition of the limbs of this second bow. They deserve every opportunity to make it right, and so far, I have no reason to believe they are not doing so. 

I'm a Martin product fan too... and am in NO way "bashing" them. I'm simply sharing with others who are interested in this bow as to what my first hand experience is with it to date. I'm working with Martin while they address the matter. If they do so properly... I'll be the first to thank them here for their efforts. My hunch is... they would've been better off to stick with getting ALL their limbs for this bow from Damon Howatt, rather than just the first few while waiting for these to be imported (from Italy, I believe). As inexpensive as this bow is... they're probably swamped with orders for it and, well... they're only human too. My conversations with them on the phone have gone very well and I'm likin' what I'm hearing as they respond to the list of complaints I gave them on the condition of the first bow. LOL The pour guy doesn't even know about the second set of limbs yet... they just arrived yesterday afternoon. They work 4/10's at Martin (as I recall).


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I dunno whether shooting of that shelf is a good thing.*



mossanimal said:


> Hey... I just got mine too. Everything came. But I thought it was odd too that the sides of limbs were unsealed.
> 
> Do you plan to shoot off the shelf or with the rest? I'm waiting for my 3River's SRF sighting system to decide which I'd rather do.


I'm giving the OEM rest a try, I'm not too impressed with it though. My carbon arrows "squeel" as they slide back on it during my draw... I'm thinking a biscuit type rest for this bow. No sights for this ol' 'Dog though. 

So far... this 50# bow seems to do pretty well with my full length GT 3555's with 5" LW feathers (helical) and 125gr. points.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

I don't like the idea of sights on trad bows... but with the aluminum riser it just seemed fitting to try one on my deer hunting recurve. But have you checked out the SRF sights? They are a hybrid between instinctive and non-instinctive methods.... very simple and elegant. Check em out at 3Rivers Archery. Anyway... This will be my first season hunting deer with a recurve, so I'm trying to make it a smooth transition.

I have a whisker biscuit on my compound. Very nice.

I just ordered some Epics with 5" fleathers and am going to re-fletch my GT 5575s and put 125s on to see if they will work for me. I have them.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

To be honest with you... I'm very reluctant to even consider sights. The reason being... I started with a vintage "Bear Bruin" compound and was learning to shoot instinctively and was doing just fine. I let someone talk me into adding sights to the bow. So... I had a pro shop install some and set up the bow... I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it set up like that... and just put my bow down for about ten years. Got the itch again and went and bought myself a Martin X-200. For me... I'm gonna LEARN this barebow thing. I liked the lines of the old "Bear, Brown Bear" compound, so I snagged one up on eBay since it was so cheap... in all, I've got about two dozen bows now. Some are recurves, some are longbows, many are old Bears, an older Ben Pearson, and older Damon Howatt, some really light bows. Now, I'm gathering up a collection of arrows of varied weight so I can start shooting many of 'em so I can formulate an opinion of what I really like, and why. They vary from 20# to 60" so I have something available for a friend who'd like to pluck a string with me, but doesn't have a bow to try. Some of my bows are also ambidextrous too. I want to learn to shoot left handed, and may make myself an ambidextrous longbow too. Ya never know when a hunting situation won't allow for a "strong side shot". Why not increase your odds by learning to shoot "weak side" and to have a bow capable of giving you the option?


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Just curious.... If you want to learn instinctive, bare bow shooting... why not shoot off the shelf on your new Martin since it puts your eye right over the arrow? I'd like to know your reasons because I'm trying to decide what to do myself. I realize that the shelf on that bow doesn't have the best shape for shooting off of. I'd like to learn good bare bow shooting myself eventually and I'm practicing... but I also don't like to wound deer so I will take things slowly on that count.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Mainly...*



mossanimal said:


> Just curious.... If you want to learn instinctive, bare bow shooting... why not shoot off the shelf on your new Martin since it puts your eye right over the arrow? I'd like to know your reasons because I'm trying to decide what to do myself. I realize that the shelf on that bow doesn't have the best shape for shooting off of. I'd like to learn good bare bow shooting myself eventually and I'm practicing... but I also don't like to wound deer so I will take things slowly on that count.


according to my thought process (which may be all wet), this riser is designed to be used with a mechanical rest (it's a compound riser). "When in Rome..." Whereas, "sights" (for me) would be a "crutch" (so to speak) and would cause me to become lazy in my desire to LEARN to aim with a barebow. 

This is, by no means, my "only bow". I've got two dozen recurves and longbows of various design to choose from when I want to shoot. A lot of them are old bows that I've snagged up off of evilBay. I'm wanting to learn what I like by shooting several types. 

The main reason I bought the Jaguar was to have a T/D bow I can bring along on the bike. It's got a long way to go before I'd consider it to be a "go to" hunting bow. It's relatively heavier than a good recurve or longbow, it's too noisy (in it's present set-up) to use for a hunting bow. The limbs need to be addressed before I'd be ok with using it to hunt with on a day of inclement weather (the "norm" in western WA State). I don't want to find myself relying on having to take the time to dig out a range finder to determine which pin to use and go through all the rituals added on with shooting a compound. For me... sights are a crutch which would be leaned on when I should be working on being a better hunter to get that much closer for a good clean shot the old-school way.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Yeah... It was a bit noisy.. but I've taken care of that with little trad-style limbsavers.

I agree about sights utilizing pins. These SRF sights, though, do not have pins. They focus your attention on a sight path that is more instinctive. It is hard to explain. But they were designed for trad shooters who want to shoot at slightly longer ranges than most people feel comfortable with pure instinctive methods.... check it out if you are curious: http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=8176X

But I completely respect your decision not use them. I may get to that point soon... but, for now, I'm a reforming compound bow hunter. Being new to recurve bows, I was mostly curious about why you are not shooting off the shelf on your bow. I think you may be right though... that shelf is too flat to shoot off of. I would need to put down a rug and elevate it somehow in the middle to reduce friction (from what I understand).


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

I'll give that link an eyeball... never hurts to see what all is out there. 

I decided against a biscuit rest, I don't want to trash my feathers with a biscuit type rest. Instead, I picked up a "NAP" Centerest. The OEM rest was a lot quieter today, but since it's plastic, wanted to have a metal one on standby once it wears down. The stabilizer helped a bit to quiet it down some. I'm going to send off these limbs to Martin once I get the other bow back and have them do something with these too (finish) before I put the Limbsaver buttons on it... already have them too. I do like how this bow shoots though. BTW... I put it on a scale today... at 28" of draw, this (advertised) 50# set of limbs showed 57# of weight at 28". The scale was hard mounted to the wall, and wasn't part of the weight on the string before being pulled... so it was the actual amount of pull on the scale by the string. I like that... I'll see how it does after the bow's "broke in" more.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

What is the deal with this OEM rest? The threads are already stripped! It did quiet down for me too. I haven't tried putting a stabilizer on... maybe I should. But once I braced her properly and put the stabilizers on... it has been pretty quiet. I like the bow so far.... I'm not sure what to do about the finish. I'm waiting to see if I can just put some on myself.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Yup... I wasn't too pleased with it being "plastic" either. Kinda sad... yeah, I "could" finish these limbs... but, why should I have to? Luckily for me... when I get the first bow back from letting THEM finish them, I'll be sending THIS bow's limbs back to them as well. It is nice to be able to use one bow while the other one's back at the factory.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

I have a strong desire to not send them back because I need them for my Summer Archery Program starting the second week of June....
So, lets suppose that when my bows arrive later this week, they too have "unfinished" limbs. just what level of un-finished-ness can I expect?
I'm thinking that if they are not "too rough" I can just bust out my random orbit sander and run through 240, 360, and 600 grits, give it a few light coats of ultra blonde shellac, or pollyurinestain, and call it a day.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I talked to Joel today...*



SandSquid said:


> I have a strong desire to not send them back because I need them for my Summer Archery Program starting the second week of June....
> So, lets suppose that when my bows arrive later this week, they too have "unfinished" limbs. just what level of un-finished-ness can I expect?
> I'm thinking that if they are not "too rough" I can just bust out my random orbit sander and run through 240, 360, and 600 grits, give it a few light coats of ultra blonde shellac, or pollyurinestain, and call it a day.


He assured me that these limbs DO have "clear" on them... but, that for the money spent, they're not going to be as "good" as their higher priced bows. 

I told him that I understand the concept quite well... however... this second bow... I've pulled three slivers from my fingers from those limbs, and that I'm quite surprised to see "MARTIN" on limbs in that condition that are called "good enough". 

Joel's having the limbs sanded again and another coat of clear put on them and agreed to receive the second limbs from me when they send the first bow back out to me once again. They're gonna try to have that bow done at the end of the week, maybe next week. 

I could probably do as good of a job on "fixing" them as they can... but, why should I? My situation is a little different, for me... they're "additional bows", not bows that I NEED ASAP. I would've had to file the edges on one of the first set of limbs to just get the limbs to seat into the riser without fear of damaging them. 

So... (Sandsquid)... if you're handy with tools, you might have to tweak on them a little to make 'em go together, and you may need to ensure they're safe (slivers) for little fingers. If we're all lucky... a production meeting at Martin will have already put the word out to look the limbs over a little better before sending them out. I made sure to detail on their Tech Message Board (Martin's) what I was finding with their product. No one from Martin has commented on the board, so I don't know whether anyone from their office monitors the content of messages. 

They're not "bad guys" in my book, and I'm sure not bashing them. But, my definition of "good enough" isn't the same as someone's at their location. They're bein' good about it and fixin' it... that's fair in my book.


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## SueO (Nov 26, 2007)

*Before and After Pix of Jaguar Take Down Finish*

I was able to pictures of the Jaguar Take Down limbs before and after the finish was applied. I just wanted to show that these limbs do have a finish on them though it isn't a thick clear coat like Howatt's standard Traditional finish.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Joel tells me the limbs for the bow I sent back had a coat of clear on them... couldn't prove it by me. They sure weren't finish sanded. The nock on one of the limbs still had a "slip" of the rotary tool bit that hadn't been sanded/blended. He's having them sanded and cleared once again for me.

This second bow... I've pulled three slivers from my fingers (literally). Joel assured me they'll fix those limbs too. I appreciate their willingness to make it right. 

What surprises me is... as hard as Martin has strived to make a name for themselves in the archery community, limbs being sent out in this condition (with the "Martin" name on them) are "good enough"? 

Granted, for the money paid for the bow, I do not expect the finish to equal the longbow I have 50 hours into of hand work... but, if the definer of the standard of QC for these bows were required to pull the slivers out of his own fingers from these limbs... someone would probably authorize a little more time to be spent to rate having "Martin" on them. I'll bet the initial production run with the Damon Howatt limbs far outshined these Italian made jobs. 

Some have encouraged me to return the bows and to get a "Quinn" (whatever that is). No, I choose to own these, but, I expect a certain standard of workmanship with the name "Martin" on them. If I accept them "as good enough", I'm sending the wrong message to the suits at Martin. So far, they're making the name on the limbs "good"... that's all I can ask of them. It's a shame that I'm having to spend for "double the shipping" on them to get a finished product though. THAT will cause me to pause when I'm selecting my next production bow brand.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Shot quite a few arrows with it today....*

I brought along my Jaguar 50#er to warm up with before stringing up the longbow I made. This is a nice shooting little bow. It likes the GoldTip 3555 (full length) arrows with the 125gr. tips. It also handles my other arrows well... GoldTip 5575 (full length) arrows with 125gr. tips. Both have 5" Feathers with a helical twist. The 3555's hit the target high and a little left, whereas the 5575's hit the target a little low and to the right. Both sets of arrows group well together. This bow weighed in at 57lbs. @ 28" of draw last weekend. It feels really light (draw), compared to the longbow I made, and has more "lob" to the arrow flight at longer distances (40yds). Adding the stubby stabilizer and sling seems to've been a nice addition. I'm relaxing my hand grip on the riser considerably with the sling. The stabilizer has quieted the bow down quite a bit. I'll add some limbsaver buttons to the limbs after they get finished by Martin (later). I probably put about 150 arrows through it today. The OEM rest has quieted down considerably too.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*it's a shame*

You get what you pay for. Anyone who thought 150 was going to get you a great bow, dream on. By the time you got the bow, sent it back etc, I would say the bow cost you more than what it is worth. If you wanted a quality t/d, you should of bought the Dorado. Yes it does cost alot more but at 450, you know what your getting. And incidently if you have had all of these issues now, what's going to happen after 500, 1000, 2000 shots.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Teucer said:


> You get what you pay for. Anyone who thought 150 was going to get you a great bow, dream on.


I never expected a great bow. I'm expecting "better than adequate" bows at a affordable price.

For me it's a cost/benefit issue. Having limited funds and having a choice between getting a Greatreee/Bullseye/Mohegan/etc. or a Martin takedown, for basically the same money, I'll take the Martin. I already have plenty of KAP, Rolan, bullseye, etc, bows in the racks, so why not spread the wealth around a bit?



> And incidentally if you have had all of these issues now, what's going to happen after 500, 1000, 2000 shots.


I still have not heard of any critical or "fatal" issues.

Bringing a new product to market has always been a challenge regardless, and some issues are to be expected. I have heard a reputable Company trying to produce an acceptable product at a fair price in tough economic times, and taking care of their customers, regardless.


Honestly, I do have some concerns about the finish and I will address them myself. I have a fully equipped woodworking shop, so it's not an issue for me.


Before turning over these new and un-tested bows to the folks in the group I coach and am ultimately responsible for, I do fully intend to bring it and a dozen arrows, back to the range at my local shop and shoot in myself as much as I can, and then whne I'm not shooting it, leave it in the rack with a note that says "Please shoot me" for a few days. The guys and gals there LOVE shooting new/different bows, and are not shy about expressing their feelings on them.

I'll also guarantee that with a dozen (some days more) members in my archery group, I'll be able to let you know how they hold up after 500, 1000, 2000 eve 10,000 shots pretty quickly. Sometimes I feel sorry for the products I turn over to the the hands of the youths, teens, young adults, adults, and developmentally challenged adults. I'm actually thinking of marketing ourselves as an "Archery Products User Acceptance Testing facility. They have an uncanny ability to quickly discover and exploit any manufacturing or design flaws. They take accelerated stress testing to a whole new level.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I wasn't looking for a diamond for $115.00*



Teucer said:


> You get what you pay for. Anyone who thought 150 was going to get you a great bow, dream on. By the time you got the bow, sent it back etc, I would say the bow cost you more than what it is worth. If you wanted a quality t/d, you should of bought the Dorado. Yes it does cost alot more but at 450, you know what your getting. And incidently if you have had all of these issues now, what's going to happen after 500, 1000, 2000 shots.


I bought the bow to have a T/D that I could tie onto the rack of my motorcycle and take along with me when I choose to ride... a bow which I wouldn't feel bad about if it gets dinged up. It's also NOT my "only" bow, or my "only" back-up bow. 

My posts here about the bow are to detail my initial impressions of the product, identify what I see as weaknesses and strengths, and the amount of value for the money paid... and how the weaknesses are being addressed by the manufacturer. I might've been born at night, but, it wasn't "last night". The fact that a brand new model has "issues" doesn't surprise me, now, or before purchasing it. When issues have been brought to the attention of the manufactuerer, the response has been "oops, ought not to've been sent out like that... send it back and we'll make it right." No complaints about that either. 

The long-term tale is very subjective though. How a bow is cared for has a LOT to do with that. Is it strung with a stringer or not? Is it left inside of a hot vehicle in the summer? Is it stood up on its tip and kept near a fireplace? Is it fired with arrows which are not suitable for that bow's poundage? I'm at least half-way to the "first 500 shots" with this bow, and it's more of a joy to shoot than it was with the first quiver full I shot through it. 

If I wanted a Hoyt Dorado, I'd buy one. My first love is the longbow, and when I want to shoot a hard hitting, flat trajectory, gorgeous piece of fine furniture... I grab the bow I made with my own two hands. Just yesterday... I had to choose between these two bows when it was time to leave the open/flat yardage range and take a walk through the brushy woods to do the trail course... I grabbed my handmade longbow and left the "beat around" Jaguar behind. If I'm with a buddy who doesn't own a bow and wants to do the same course with me... guess what? I have a bow to loan him that I'm not too concerned about them dinging around with in the same brush. If I'm at a motorcycle gathering with some of the apes I ride around with... guess which bow I'm going to loan to one of them to shoot? It sure isn't going to be my hand rubbed longbow. I live in the Pacific Northwest, and have been known to ride in a monsoon... which bow do you think I'll want to have strapped to the rack of my bike? So... thank you for your input, but, for what I intended this bow for... I like my choice just fine. I'm certain that you have specific reasons for making your selections for bows you own. I just hope that you're able to enjoy owning a stable of bows too. Of the bows I own, I've only shot a few of them. I like all of them so far...


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Oh Really*

Dude,

Lets get it straight that bow is being marketed as a bargain. I would hate to see any new archer buying into that bow period. You bought it for your reason, to backpack it. Most archers do buy takedown for that reason, but most would much rather buy something with a bit more quality attached to it. I'm not attacking you or your reasons for buying that bow. What I would not like to see is someone new to the sport buying into cheap bows. We want the sport to grow, and that only happens when people buy into a good product. That's great business sense. Imagine if that was your first ever bow and you had splinters from the limbs in your hands, would you be so quick to recommend it to a friend, I hope not. Martin used to have excellent quality, But now they no way compare to the other top companies. Myself included have been very disappointed with the quality of bow from Martin recently.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Yes, it is...*



Teucer said:


> Dude,
> 
> Lets get it straight that bow is being marketed as a bargain. I would hate to see any new archer buying into that bow period. You bought it for your reason, to backpack it. Most archers do buy takedown for that reason, but most would much rather buy something with a bit more quality attached to it. I'm not attacking you or your reasons for buying that bow. What I would not like to see is someone new to the sport buying into cheap bows. We want the sport to grow, and that only happens when people buy into a good product. That's great business sense. Imagine if that was your first ever bow and you had splinters from the limbs in your hands, would you be so quick to recommend it to a friend, I hope not. Martin used to have excellent quality, But now they no way compare to the other top companies. Myself included have been very disappointed with the quality of bow from Martin recently.


being marketed as a bargain. The guy on the other end of the phone at Martin (to whom I've conversed with) admits as such. Personally, I think they'd've been better served to create a different "brand" to associate it with... like the "Scion" in the car industry. They didn't, so... when I find something about it that is substandard to what I (as the customer) am willing to "accept as good enough" in connection with the name they've made for themselves... I'm going to let 'em know about it. Ok, so they're going after some low-end market share... can't blame 'em for that. Heck, it's still a nicer bow than some of these "all resin" jobs floating around. I bought one of those too... just incase I decide I want to have something to bowfish with. I've got an X-200, a Mountaineer... both are very nice bows, and shooters. I've flung a few arrows with their little "The Stick Bow". That's a nice little bow too. As "the customer", I'd prefer to see them stick with Damon Howatt built parts to go with the "Martin" name... but, I'm not the one deciding how they go about getting their slice of the bargain bow market share. 

Part of why I'm getting so involved with taking the time to comment on facets of this bow is to offer some input for others to read and decide for themselves whether they're wanting to give this bow a go. 

As for the little debate we're having here... you DID tell me what you think I "should've" bought. My point in my reply was to clarify why I wasn't buying the $400 bow that you think I should've gone with. It is (this bow), what it is... I haven't hyped it to urge others to follow my choice... and, (as you can see from my avatar) I think I've been fairly objective and honest about the perceived weaknesses I've found with this bow. 

Okay... say there is a "worst case scenario" with this bow's limbs? I'll learn how to laminate some limbs of my own making and resurrect the bow. Since I already know I can make a longbow backed with bamboo that weighs less than 26 oz., draws 60# @ 28" and (after being warmed up) can shoot an arrow at 188 fps with a flat trajectory, and feels as smooth as wet glass... I think I can learn how to make some limbs for this bow. For me, I don't find a downside yet. 

So far, from what I've gathered from your replies to this thread is that you don't like the bow, so you've decided to try and convince everyone else how foolish it is to take an interest in it. Ok... we hear you, and you're entitled to your opinion of the bow. Over the last couple of months, I've read a lot of postings from people who are interested in the story of this bow... being that I've managed to get my hands on a couple of them... I'm sharing my first-hand experiences (good and bad) with it. IF I end up having a bad feeling about this bow... what am I out? Basically, the cost of a nice dinner out for two. I won't be stuck living on the classifieds like quite a few Black Widow owners, begging people to pay my asking price to make me feel good about paying the price for one that I had to shell out. M'be my posting about the BWs and Dorados (the other day) flooding the classifieds, and not moving too well has sparked an interest within you to take a passive/aggressive jab at me?  Question for you... where would you have your information on what this bow is... if it weren't for what you've read here? Please, tell me how my involvement with this bow is leading "new to the sport" folks towards a handful of splinters? Who's the one posting up information of the limbs' condition, and how to go about getting it resolved?


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## elk country rp (Sep 5, 2005)

i feel the urge to add that since SueO is paying attention, you're actually helping Martin iron out the bugs in this new model......
i try not to forget who gives us this forum, thereby allowing us to argue with each other (heheheheheh)


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Opinions from both sides*

I agree you are absolutely doing a service for all of us by posting your report. No argument there at all. I'm not bashing your choice, it's yours to make and we all appreciate the info. My bash is with the bow, I don't think it's worth the price no matter the cost. That's all. The info you provided is great. Martin in the past has made great bows. I just don't think this bow is going on the hall fame wall in Martin history.
I've had my share of Martin bows in the past. They were all good shooters. Bought one recently, not a good buy in my opinion. The finish was lousy, the string was a joke. And the bow cost over 400. Same money on a Hoyt got me a way better bow. That's my experience. 
Did I even suggest you were going to try and sell the bow ?
Let's just stick to the facts here, the bow did not come to you as you expected. You had issues with the time it took to get the bow, the finish was not acceptable, and the slivers of fiberglass coming off the limbs was not a good indication of quality control.
Once again Facts only, I'm commenting on the bow not you.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Otay... that's fair*



Teucer said:


> I agree you are absolutely doing a service for all of us by posting your report. No argument there at all. I'm not bashing your choice, it's yours to make and we all appreciate the info. My bash is with the bow, I don't think it's worth the price no matter the cost. That's all. The info you provided is great. Martin in the past has made great bows. I just don't think this bow is going on the hall fame wall in Martin history.
> I've had my share of Martin bows in the past. They were all good shooters. Bought one recently, not a good buy in my opinion. The finish was lousy, the string was a joke. And the bow cost over 400. Same money on a Hoyt got me a way better bow. That's my experience.
> Did I even suggest you were going to try and sell the bow ?
> Let's just stick to the facts here, the bow did not come to you as you expected. You had issues with the time it took to get the bow, the finish was not acceptable, and the slivers of fiberglass coming off the limbs was not a good indication of quality control.
> Once again Facts only, I'm commenting on the bow not you.


LOL Your prediction of the bow's future may just be spot on. Which of their bows did you have a problem with? Did you work with them to give them a chance to put a smile on your face? Curious about that. I can't offer an opinion on a Hoyt product, I've not shot one or owned one.

Actually... overall, I had no issues with how long it took from the time I placed my order until the bow was available to ship to me. I waited a couple of weeks, and then got a phone call that a different pattern than what I'd ordered had arrived, and did I want that pattern... the vendor (not Martin) hadn't gotten me a pic of the bow after two weeks, so I told 'em to send it... and I bought another bow in the original pattern from another vendor. In both instances, the order was placed an a bow was available to me (or shipped to me) within two weeks' time. 

You're absolutely right... the finish was not acceptable, and when I told 'em about it, they immediately authorized me to send it back to them to correct it, and have authorized me to send this second one back to them at my time of choosing to make it right too. 

I'd love to get my hands on a set of the Damon Howatt limbs to compare these to. 

Between the state of our economy these days, and the overall mentality of the General Pulic of wanting to go to Wal-Mart and buy a top of the line product for a bargain basement price... American Craftsmanship has a daunting challenge. Chevy had the Vega, Ford's had the Pinto, Fairmont, Mustang II... Dodge's had the K-Car series. At least the Vega could have the 327CID and TH350 stuffed into it and make it into a little screemer... the Pinto... well... it remained the Pinto and shared parts with the Mustang II. I think that Martin can stuff some Damon Howatt made limbs back into this riser and have a very sweet bow... as an "upgrade" option to the base package. To be fair, they're giving an oversees vendor a shot with a shipment of their product (which seems to be the "politically correct" approach for an American company to do these days). It may take a while to get things up to speed. They're back-ordered, dealing with Customs... things are going to happen... people want their orders filled. In hind sight... they'd've probably've been wiser to offer this bow as a Joint Venture... the "Martin/Luigi" (if you will). Take credit for their riser and give credit to Luigi for their contribution... and "blame" accordingly. Instead, they opted to have their name on these imported limbs and are now kind of stuck with the fall-out. For now... I give them credit, they're standing behind the product and willing to make it right. That's a damned fine American way of doing business in my book.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Ummmm not sure about a 327... I had a 1976 Vega GT coupe with a 5 speed tranny, and not a finer car, in my opinion, was ever built by GM. That car would be a fine answer to the likes of the Subaru WRX (which I currently own) and which provides great handling incredible speed for small engines, and never once failed me.

Other than that, I agree with you...


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Lol*



rattus58 said:


> Ummmm not sure about a 327... I had a 1976 Vega GT coupe with a 5 speed tranny, and not a finer car, in my opinion, was ever built by GM. That car would be a fine answer to the likes of the Subaru WRX (which I currently own) and which provides great handling incredible speed for small engines, and never once failed me.
> 
> Other than that, I agree with you...



Not sure about the 327 ?!?! One of the finest mills GM stuffed into a rig... especially the '69 'Vette version... which had the 4-bolt mains. I stuffed one into my '68 elCamino SS and a beefed up TH400, mated to a 12-bolt posi. Dang... I miss that rig.

I had a '72 Vega (liked the grill much better than the later ones). It served me quite well... until I smoked the clutch in it, road racing a European two-seater who couldn't shake me (I was 16yrs old at the time). Mine didn't burn any oil. My point was that a little tweaking could take something with a less than stellar rep and do some fine things with it. I've never even owned an import car, but, I kinda like that WRX... is it being good to you?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I was wondering if chevy had dropped the 327 into the vega, was my query... 

The WRX Hatchback that I have is a 4 door 230 hp turbo AWD that is an awesome road handler and.... AND... will fit folks up to 6'4" total comfort. Car is pretty stable to about 125 where it struggles a bit getting the last 1000 rpm. A friend of mine has one that is also stock except that he boosted the controller a couple of psi and gets to 140.

I've got a bunch of parts to put into it that ran me about $4,000 and will gain me about 100 hp... but as it is, it is a thrill to drive.

Aloha....  :beer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Lol...*



rattus58 said:


> I was wondering if chevy had dropped the 327 into the vega, was my query...
> 
> The WRX Hatchback that I have is a 4 door 230 hp turbo AWD that is an awesome road handler and.... AND... will fit folks up to 6'4" total comfort. Car is pretty stable to about 125 where it struggles a bit getting the last 1000 rpm. A friend of mine has one that is also stock except that he boosted the controller a couple of psi and gets to 140.
> 
> ...


Nope, Chevy didn't... but, I think Pontiac MAY have put a larger mill into their offering of the same body... I think it was a small V8 too.

Are the clutches on 'em stout enough for the added boost? That's nice to hear they've got enough room inside for bigger fellers.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

For the driving that I do, the clutches are pretty sticky, it's the shifter mechanism that could use some grease.... or the STI short throw shifter...

I love the WRX... 

Aloha.... Tom


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

Ratdog68 said:


> Nope, Chevy didn't... but, I think Pontiac MAY have put a larger mill into their offering of the same body... I think it was a small V8 too.
> 
> Are the clutches on 'em stout enough for the added boost? That's nice to hear they've got enough room inside for bigger fellers.


The Subaru Clutch is pretty stout & of an interesting release design that instead of pushing on the plate it pulls on the plate to release the clutch but very solid, I used to work for a Dealership that was GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick, Subaru & let me tell ya, those Subie 4 cylinder Boxer engines are SUPER EASY to work on....


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Indeed... the boxer is a nice engine to work on... that's what my Honda Valkyrie is... six cylinder with six carbs. Soooo simple to sync all six carbs, don't even have to take the tank off. 

I didn't know about the "pull to engage" design. Nice to hear they're plenty stout.


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

Ratdog68 said:


> Indeed... the boxer is a nice engine to work on... that's what my Honda Valkyrie is... six cylinder with six carbs. Soooo simple to sync all six carbs, don't even have to take the tank off.
> 
> I didn't know about the "pull to engage" design. Nice to hear they're plenty stout.


Yeah the hard part of a clutch change in one of those is to pull the fork out but you only make that mistake once & then it's a AH HA moment..

I was talking to one of the younger guys that has only been in the business for just a few years "not even 22 yet" about adjusting the Dwell, & syncing multi carbs using nothing but a timing light, & a vacuum gauge & it was as though I was talking Greek to him, ah the good ole days..

Now back to your Martin, not to say anything bad about it but like all the other metal risored recurves that I've seen it just takes something away from it for me where if it had a wood risor it'd be more appealing, just my opinion kinda why I didn't look into the Dorado or the Nomad.
But when I was at Bass Pro last Sunday, I was sooooo tempted to get me one of those nice Martin Savanahs, but I said to my self I'll wait & be patient.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

I don't understand all the hubbub folks. The bow cost $114.00. Admittedly, I'm new to recurves (but not to archery)... but this bow, after putting on limbsavers, shoots smoothly, quietly and groups arrows. I don't like the finish either... but I can always put some finish on it. I'm even starting to like the cheap rest that came with it.

It is hard to understand why Martin would want to compromise their reputation by sending out such a poorly finished bow... but, for the price, I have a nice recurve.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Lol...*



Raider2000 said:


> Yeah the hard part of a clutch change in one of those is to pull the fork out but you only make that mistake once & then it's a AH HA moment..
> 
> I was talking to one of the younger guys that has only been in the business for just a few years "not even 22 yet" about adjusting the Dwell, & syncing multi carbs using nothing but a timing light, & a vacuum gauge & it was as though I was talking Greek to him, ah the good ole days..
> 
> ...



Most of 'em wouldn't even know what a distributor cap is, let alone what a trap door on one is for. I use the old mercury filled tubes for carb sync duties... even though there's only four tubes, it's fairly easy to do all six jugs.

To be honest with you... the metal riser didn't do too much for me either, initially... but, it's growin' on me a little. Sort of like just accepting it for what it is kind of thing. I start droolin' on the Viper and the Venom bows. I like my recurves, but really like longbows.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*LOL Well...*



mossanimal said:


> I don't understand all the hubbub folks. The bow cost $114.00. Admittedly, I'm new to recurves (but not to archery)... but this bow, after putting on limbsavers, shoots smoothly, quietly and groups arrows. I don't like the finish either... but I can always put some finish on it. I'm even starting to like the cheap rest that came with it.
> 
> It is hard to understand why Martin would want to compromise their reputation by sending out such a poorly finished bow... but, for the price, I have a nice recurve.


If the finish on the limbs were the only "issue" with the first bow I received, I'd've probably been a little less critical. But, when the box arrived with ONLY the following inside (Riser, Upper Limb, Lower Limb)... there was no question about sending it back. Where's the limb bolts/barrel nuts, string, rest, owner's manual? Sure, anyone can have a bad day... but all that on top of the fact that I couldn't even get one of the limbs to nestle into the riser without feeling like I'd be having to force it in and afraid of damaging it? And... to have it as rough as a cob? 

Then... the second bow donating three slivers to my hands the first few times I string it to get used to it? 

But, I find myself defending this bow more and more. It IS a nice little bow. The more I shoot it, the more I like it... and, when the first one arrvies back onto my doorstep, I'll probably like it even more. I'm defending Martin because they're being really good about making it right for me.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Yeah Ratdog... It's been awhile since you made the original post and I forgot about all the issues you had. You definitely have a right to complain.

I guess I'm lucky with mine or my standards are probably lower.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Another Jaguar may have sold...*

No, not mine either. One of my motorcycle riding buddies tried a few of my bows yesterday and now wants a 40# Jaguar and a quiver full of arrows. He's new to archery (got introduced yesterday), likes the take-down ability (for the bike), and the entry level price to get started in the sport... and, likes the idea of some backyard therapy after work.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

*Guess what I just got?*

I finally got it.

First, it's a good shooter.

I had one minor issue with the limb nuts. I had to run a 5/16-18 tap through them to get the bolts to start. I did this before I installed them in the riser. I suggest everyone try the bolts before you go to the trouble of putting those nuts in. But that was easy, I had a tap. I can imagin it would be frustrating to those that do not have a tap.

The limbs are sealed but do have some raised grain on the edges. I am going to steel wool them and wax. 

I did not use the rest, i had an old rest from I don't remember how I got it and even if i ever used it. But it's perfect for this bow.

All in all, I am glad I own it. It draws better than my other 45's.

The picture quality is not so good, phone pictures.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

What's the "stock" rest look like?


Hopefully ours will be here tomorrow... 
(reportedly) shipped from Walla Walla on 15MAY


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Good on ya ElderMike !! It is a nice shooting bow. The serving on mine is coming apart already (just below the nock). No biggie, I'll just serve it up again. 

I got the first bow back from Martin yesterday. The limbs fit this time and are much better !!! (Smoothness to the touch) The bad news... they forgot to address the "incomplete bow" part of my correspondence and will be shipping those parts to me separately. Everyone's only human, but Martin gets a thumbs up for their willingness to follow-up... even if it does take a couple of tries to get it squared away.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> What's the "stock" rest look like?
> 
> 
> Hopefully ours will be here tomorrow...
> (reportedly) shipped from Walla Walla on 15MAY


It's a nylon bolt with nylon nuts, and a flipper on the end. Looks like it would work just fine. I had that old hunter supreme rest and always thought it would work on the right recurve. And I was right.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

my serving is coming apart too... I'm guessing its because of the sharp edges of the limbs. Would filing down a bit be in order???

The rest works fine.... but it squeals like an out of tune violin. It stopped for awhile, but now its doing it again. Also... I stripped the threads and now its stuck where it is. Thankfully at center. But I need to get another soon. This squealing is unacceptable. I guess I could stick some felt to it.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

I'd just snag up one of these... I have one that's going on as soon as the OEM rest dies on me. As for the serving... I think it's just a bad batch of strings they received from a supplier. Someone hasn't learned how to do serving quite right.

I picked up a "NAP" Centerest


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Just by chance has anyone measured the rest plunger position from the inside of the riser? (center shot) Mine is shooting ok with 45-50 POC's cut to 29 inches. I have the inside of the arrow 7/8" from the inside of the riser. I am going to try a stiffer arrow tomorrow and see if i can bring it in closer to center. The reason I ask is at some point I am going to build a shelf for this bow. Might be good if we shared some ideas on how much to build it up from the side.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

keep me posted on the shelf... I've been thinking about building one myself.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

mossanimal said:


> keep me posted on the shelf... I've been thinking about building one myself.


I will do that


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Sandsquid, did you get our bows?


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## Altiman94 (Jun 11, 2007)

Can you not shoot this bow off the shelf? Doesn't look like it by the pics posted so far..


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Eldermike said:


> Sandsquid, did you get our bows?


Not yet!


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Strings, bushings, limbs*

Man what a great price for a beginer's bow......not. Great to hear about all of the problems. I'll say it again to those who "love" this bow, Do you really think it is such a good buy for someone starting out to deal with all of these issues. I understand that the bow is under 200, but for under 300 you can get the Hoyt Excel and the Excel limbs that will absolutely have none of the Martin issues, None.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Teucer said:


> Man what a great price for a beginer's bow......not. Great to hear about all of the problems. I'll say it again to those who "love" this bow, Do you really think it is such a good buy for someone starting out to deal with all of these issues. I understand that the bow is under 200, but for under 300 you can get the Hoyt Excel and the Excel limbs that will absolutely have none of the Martin issues, None.


For under 300 I can get 2 of these bows and a box of arrows.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Now, ElderMike....*



Eldermike said:


> For under 300 I can get 2 of these bows and a box of arrows.


Haven't you heard the good news and seen the light? You're so much safer to put your trust in someone else's judgement as to what's best for YOU... and disciple yourself to another's blessings on how to spend your hard earned wages. Now, repent and say ten "Hail Hoyts" :77:


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

So, Teucer, serious question here.... 
Lets say I have $400 to spend and need to get _at least_ *3* _new_ (not used) bows suitable for a gaggle of novice teenager archers to (ab)use, where would you suggest I spend my money? I need to get at least 5 years of solid use out of them.. Say 300-500 arrows a week out of each bow, and replace, out of my pocket, only strings and stick-on rests. 
What other Co. has an almost unquestioning warranty policy?


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Ahem, not to barge in but for your needs sandsquid, I would go w/ the martin. Also, as Elder mike pointed out, for 300$, you can get either two jaguars and a box of arrows, or three jaguars. To me, their almost fool proof. And, Eldermike, what are you doing talking about Jaguars when you just got a Tomahawk? Man! I've heard that Tomahawks are reputable for being TERRIBLE bows. Breaking, bad shooters, limb twists. So, I would be happy to take it off your hands for say...50$? Whattaya say?


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! :wav:


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm Not Ted said:


> Ahem, not to barge in


barge in.. that's the point of an open forum!





> but for your needs sandsquid, I would go w/ the martin. Also, as Elder mike pointed out, for 300$, you can get either two jaguars and a box of arrows, or three jaguars. To me, their almost fool proof.


That's IF I can GET them.

They were promised (words dirctly from the mouth of someone at Martin to my ears, and the ears of the owner of my local dealership) on 14MAY to be shipped on 15MAY. 

As of yesterday nothing has shown up.

We both have calls into Martin, and if they are anot already in the shipping pipeline, I have no choice but to cancell my order and buy Greatree Mohegans. 

I really and not impressed w/ the mohegan but it's SOMETHING TO SHOOT and I know I can get them here bu Friday. I have a class of a dozen students wanting to shoot recurves, on 06 JUNE, and currently only 3 bows to do it with. That is completely UN-SAT!


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Yeah, I don't get that. My X-200 was here in a week.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I'm Not Ted said:


> Ahem, not to barge in but for your needs sandsquid, I would go w/ the martin. Also, as Elder mike pointed out, for 300$, you can get either two jaguars and a box of arrows, or three jaguars. To me, their almost fool proof. And, Eldermike, what are you doing talking about Jaguars when you just got a Tomahawk? Man! I've heard that Tomahawks are reputable for being TERRIBLE bows. Breaking, bad shooters, limb twists. So, I would be happy to take it off your hands for say...50$? Whattaya say?


I like my JaguarTD, and the Tomahawk's staying in the family

I also have a few others. But, with the Tomahawk I am done for a while by order of the war department (wife):zip:


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Don't blame ya. They are a little pricey and should last quite a while.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Squid*

Sand Squid, 
For your situation, basically for kids to beat on while learning how to shoot I'd say the Jaguar looks like a decent deal. My plan on when my kids get ready to shoot will be a Maddog Archery Pup recurve, 95 bucks, cheaper than the Jag and better quality in my opinion.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Eldermike*

I'm sure you can get more with the 300, 2 Jags compared to one Hoyt, but you will not get the same quality. So if you want to collect junk go and buy two, If you want a quality bow that will out perform the 2 Jags buy the Hoyt.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Talking to the man who just received a Tomahawk longbow. Umm hmm.


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## trentcur (Feb 26, 2009)

Teucer said:


> I'm sure you can get more with the 300, 2 Jags compared to one Hoyt, but you will not get the same quality. So if you want to collect junk go and buy two, If you want a quality bow that will out perform the 2 Jags buy the Hoyt.


Hey Teucer.......... are you serious??? You jump on somebody elses thread and insult their bows, calling them junk with all the likes? Wow, that takes some nerve my friend
Man to heck with personal preferances..... we need to all go to you for approval from now on before making an investing in a bow, much less getting excited about one.

I have seen other people speaking that they didnt prefer hill longbows and I have read your replies saying that you couldnt stand it when people just bash hills for handshock and the likes........because you like yours soooooooo much and people shouldnt just bash and assume such things. Well I own several hills and did agree with you-

Friend....I suggest that you listen to your own advise. I dont even own a Jag and am not going to purchase one and I still found your post pretty brash. that was a pretty arrogant and rude post to say the least. :suspiciou


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

trentcur said:


> Hey Teucer.......... are you serious??? You jump on somebody elses thread and insult their bows, calling them junk with all the likes? Wow, that takes some nerve my friend
> Man to heck with personal preferances..... we need to all go to you for approval from now on before making an investing in a bow, much less getting excited about one.
> 
> I have seen other people speaking that they didnt prefer hill longbows and I have read your replies saying that you couldnt stand it when people just bash hills for handshock and the likes........because you like yours soooooooo much and people shouldnt just bash and assume such things. Well I own several hills and did agree with you-
> ...



:wav: :wav: :clap: :clap:


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Are you serious*

Sorry to ruffle your feathers Jack but I don't like to see anyone buy into something that honestly isn't such a good buy. So what your saying is I should just nod my head and accept every review and not give another view. We all read this stuff to gather ideas whether we agree or not.

I do have my opinion on Hill bows, so what. Think of it this way, someone may be interested in one, he reads someone who says they have handshock, I'm not allowed to counter it. Give me a break.

As for the Jag, I just don't see it as a quality investment, do you. What's your thoughts on a bow out of the box missing parts, fiberglass slivers on the edges, strings with bad servings, finish that isn't up to par. Yes bud I own a few Hills, a few Hoyts, Toelke bows, Bob Lee, PSE and a few older Martins, never had these issues, not even close. Never had to send any bow back for anything. So that's what I'm comparing it to.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

:devil:


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*one demerit*

Ok I'll agree that calling the Jag junk was harsh and I apologize, my bad.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Teucer said:


> Ok I'll agree that calling the Jag junk was harsh and I apologize, my bad.


Helga and Olga are waiting in the back room to give you your spanking...
:moon::whip2: :withchild


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

This is junk.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

This is not.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

*Hellga!*


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Teucer said:


> Sorry to ruffle your feathers Jack but I don't like to see anyone buy into something that honestly isn't such a good buy. So what your saying is I should just nod my head and accept every review and not give another view. We all read this stuff to gather ideas whether we agree or not.
> 
> I do have my opinion on Hill bows, so what. Think of it this way, someone may be interested in one, he reads someone who says they have handshock, I'm not allowed to counter it. Give me a break.
> 
> As for the Jag, I just don't see it as a quality investment, do you. What's your thoughts on a bow out of the box missing parts, fiberglass slivers on the edges, strings with bad servings, finish that isn't up to par. Yes bud I own a few Hills, a few Hoyts, Toelke bows, Bob Lee, PSE and a few older Martins, never had these issues, not even close. Never had to send any bow back for anything. So that's what I'm comparing it to.


Well, I guess it's all relative, a 100 bucks is about what a meal costs for the family if I take them all out. So 100 bucks is not quite up to the investment status here at the home place. I own 4 Martins, gave two others as gifts this year, along with some other bows, no hoyts. Years ago I had as many PSE's and Bear's, nothing wrong with them I just started buying Martins and found something that's missing in manufacturing today. You call them and they help you.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Hmmm. No ones lit this fire yet today. :devil:


----------



## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Back on topic:

I got up this morning and took the hunter supreme rest off my jagTD. For some reason every time I shot it I had to move it out. So, I found that plastic factory rest and put it on. I carefully hand tightned the nuts and set it to what looks like just outside of center. I moved my nock to adjust for the new height and took it out. Martin did their home work on this rest, it shoots great. I am set at about 3/4 inch from inside the riser to the little pad on the rest. It was a guess and I did have to change it. I can see the arrows spinning on their way to the target and they stick so streight in that all I can see is feathers. 

Now, since this thing is plastic I wonder how long it will last and much they will cost....


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I'll have to give your adjustment spec a try...*



Eldermike said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> I got up this morning and took the hunter supreme rest off my jagTD. For some reason every time I shot it I had to move it out. So, I found that plastic factory rest and put it on. I carefully hand tightned the nuts and set it to what looks like just outside of center. I moved my nock to adjust for the new height and took it out. Martin did their home work on this rest, it shoots great. I am set at about 3/4 inch from inside the riser to the little pad on the rest. It was a guess and I did have to change it. I can see the arrows spinning on their way to the target and they stick so streight in that all I can see is feathers.
> 
> Now, since this thing is plastic I wonder how long it will last and much they will cost....


I'm not unhappy with how mine's shooting as is... I just eyeballed mine as well and have been pleased with how the rest works. The only gripe I've had with it is that it (intermitently) squeals pretty loud when drawing carbon arrows. 

I too have been questioning the longevity of the plastic... so, I bought a NAP Centerest Flipper to have on standby.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Ratdog68 said:


> I'm not unhappy with how mine's shooting as is... I just eyeballed mine as well and have been pleased with how the rest works. The only gripe I've had with it is that it (intermitently) squeals pretty loud when drawing carbon arrows.
> 
> I too have been questioning the longevity of the plastic... so, I bought a NAP Centerest Flipper to have on standby.



I am going to do the same thing


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Looking at the limb markings brings up a question. Is there a top and bottom? Mine are not marked. I have never owned a take down recurve. How are yours marked?


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*The edges of both of mine...*



Eldermike said:


> Looking at the limb markings brings up a question. Is there a top and bottom? Mine are not marked. I have never owned a take down recurve. How are yours marked?


are marked "A" and "B"... no reference is made in the "manual" as to which is intended as top/bottom... so, mine are "A" on top. Seems to shoot ok.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Ratdog68 said:


> are marked "A" and "B"... no reference is made in the "manual" as to which is intended as top/bottom... so, mine are "A" on top. Seems to shoot ok.


I have tried them both ways, it shoots the same to me. I ask this question on Martin tech forum, so far no answer. But it would seem to me that is they were the same they would be A and A or B and B.


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## warped Arrow (Sep 20, 2005)

Eldermike said:


> Is there a top and bottom? Mine are not marked. I have never owned a take down recurve.


Typically the limb with the information on it (#'s, serial #, ect) is the bottom limb.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

warped Arrow said:


> Typically the limb with the information on it (#'s, serial #, ect) is the bottom limb.


I agree, but there it's not there on my limbs.


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## trentcur (Feb 26, 2009)

Man..... I really was kind of thinking about getting one of these for a beat through the bushes bow.

It sounds like you guys have really had some problems..... would you recommend this bow all said and done? 

I hate to say it, but it sounds like Martin failed to use the same quality control that they are so famed foron their other trad gear. I have owned several martin bows and never had a problem.

Whats your opinion all said and done? Would you recommend a purchase?


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

trentcur said:


> Man..... I really was kind of thinking about getting one of these for a beat through the bushes bow.
> 
> It sounds like you guys have really had some problems..... would you recommend this bow all said and done?
> 
> ...



Yes, it's a good shooting bow. I agree they have had problems getting this thing off the ground. But, all in all I am happy with mine. I would not hesitate to buy another one if I lost this one.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Yep...*



trentcur said:


> Man..... I really was kind of thinking about getting one of these for a beat through the bushes bow.
> 
> It sounds like you guys have really had some problems..... would you recommend this bow all said and done?
> 
> ...


Both of mine have had more than their share of "issues"... however... Martin has continually said all the right things to correct it. And, although they haven't been getting it all "right" the first time (omitting parts), they're continuing to say the right things and sending things along. The refinish they did on my first set of limbs is quite satisfactory. I've already given a friend of mine the run down on the bow... he shot it and has ordered one up himself. It is a nice shooting bow. Human beings are just that... but the attitude is good at Martin. If they're as sharp as I hope they are... they're taking full advantage of the learning curve they're in the middle of with this model in their line-up.


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## trentcur (Feb 26, 2009)

:madgrin:Ok great...... im happy to hear it!

Maybe after they mess up and re do all your bows they will get mine just perfect:grin: Ill wait till they learn from all their mistakes on your bows....................... hehehehehehe


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I called Martin and spoke with Joel.......The A and B is just a way of knowing they have a matched set. You can use them either way, A or B on top. Once you break it in you have a reference so you an assemble the same way every time. I told him I tired them both ways and he said that's fine. So, the next time I take mine apart I will use a sharpie and mark top on the top and forget the A B thing.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> If they're as sharp as I hope they are... they're taking full advantage of the learning curve they're in the middle of with this model in their line-up.



That is the the "silver lining" I'm hoping for when (if) the bows I ordered for my youth group ever show up. Should be pretty well debugged by then.

I can tell you that after this long of a wait if it's not 100% to what I have come to expect ie; "The Martin Standard of Excellence", I'm sending them straight back. I had my wife save me an old pair of her nylon stockings so I can run them over the limbs while I'm at my dealers. One snag or a single sliver and I'm not accepting the bows, period.


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

Eldermike said:


> I called Martin and spoke with Joel.......The A and B is just a way of knowing they have a matched set. You can use them either way, A or B on top. Once you break it in you have a reference so you an assemble the same way every time. I told him I tired them both ways and he said that's fine. So, the next time I take mine apart I will use a sharpie and mark top on the top and forget the A B thing.


I just used B for Bottom


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Now*



sback05 said:


> I just used B for Bottom


THAT'S thinkin' with yer dipstick.... Jimmy !!!


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Hey SandSquid...*



SandSquid said:


> That is the the "silver lining" I'm hoping for when (if) the bows I ordered for my youth group ever show up. Should be pretty well debugged by then.
> 
> I can tell you that after this long of a wait if it's not 100% to what I have come to expect ie; "The Martin Standard of Excellence", I'm sending them straight back. I had my wife save me an old pair of her nylon stockings so I can run them over the limbs while I'm at my dealers. One snag or a single sliver and I'm not accepting the bows, period.


Just as an FYI.... I believe Ye Olde Archery Shoppe has some in stock, or, at least received another batch that got sent out... their price on the bow has been $119.99. BowHunter's Superstore was pricing them at $115 and you might check with them too. Just in case your vendor's supply hasn't materialized.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Ratdog68 said:


> THAT'S thinkin' with yer dipstick.... Jimmy !!!


:chortle:  :chortle:


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> Just as an FYI.... I believe Ye Olde Archery Shoppe has some in stock, or, at least received another batch that got sent out... their price on the bow has been $119.99.


Been there and checked. They have 45#, 50#, 55#... I need 35# (or lower)



Ratdog68 said:


> BowHunter's Superstore was pricing them at $115 and you might check with them too. Just in case your vendor's supply hasn't materialized.


Only have the 55# in stock.


Hey I've waitied this long what's a few more months?
Besides, I don't want to be a pr!ck to my dealer, and ask for my deposite back. It's not _their_ fault Martin can't seem to deliver on thier promises.

Apologies if I sound bitter and jaded, but Martin has really let us down in the past 6 months. 
First, we waited 14 weeks for my wife's new Mystic to show up un-shootable. Now, we have the Jaguar fiasco.... 

I'm sure Martin will get thier production issues straightened out eventually and be back on top again.

My wife and daughter were recently asked to submit an application for Staff Shooter position with another Co. and at first we summarily dismissed it.
They both said "I'd rather be shooting my Martins as an unsigned shooter, than shoot for anybody else." I wonder if they feel the same way now? But, I'm afraid to ask.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Would spray painting these limbs with an automotive bumper paint help seal them at all? 

I'd be getting this bow for the same reason...something I can beat the crap out of without feeling guilty. I'd also be using it on the water a lot this year but I have some concerns about the lack of a nice thick clear coat and the environment in which I'd use the bow in. 

Has anyone ever spray painted their recurve limbs with automotive bumper paint?


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

It's only the edges that would need sealing, the top and bottom are black glass.
I sanded mine on the edges and used a sealing wax on them. It was easy (10 minute job) and I know this stuff keeps out water. And it looks great. I have several bass guitars that have zero finish on them. Rubbing wax is all they have ever had, the same stuff you use on oak floors. They have been in rain, snow and heat from being in trucks and trailers, shipped all over the country to gigs and they have never taken on any water.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Joel assures me....*



Eldermike said:


> It's only the edges that would need sealing, the top and bottom are black glass.
> I sanded mine on the edges and used a sealing wax on them. It was easy (10 minute job) and I know this stuff keeps out water. And it looks great. I have several bass guitars that have zero finish on them. Rubbing wax is all they have ever had, the same stuff you use on oak floors. They have been in rain, snow and heat from being in trucks and trailers, shipped all over the country to gigs and they have never taken on any water.


That there is a clear finish on the limbs already... if so, it's thin. I'd have to agree with the notion of puting some wax on the edges to seal 'em up if it's of concern.

BTW... Martin made good on refinishing the limbs on my bow, and they sent me some "extra" goodies as a thank you for my patience with them. And extra string, sight, and such.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Well... Joel was not so gracious with me. He thought I was crazy that I'm having my string serving fall apart. Told me to call Bowhunter Superstore and have them replace it... and was no help at all with helping me figure out the best way to install that Nap Centerest. I guess I don't have your telephone charisma Ratdog. 

BTW... have you had a chance to install that Centerest yet? There has got to be something missing on mine.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

mossanimal said:


> BTW... have you had a chance to install that Centerest yet? There has got to be something missing on mine.


You have the metal body, the nut, the little brass washer, I guess it's brass and the plastic rest. You should also have the little steel rod that you use to adjust it.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Hmmm.....*



mossanimal said:


> Well... Joel was not so gracious with me. He thought I was crazy that I'm having my string serving fall apart. Told me to call Bowhunter Superstore and have them replace it... and was no help at all with helping me figure out the best way to install that Nap Centerest. I guess I don't have your telephone charisma Ratdog.
> 
> BTW... have you had a chance to install that Centerest yet? There has got to be something missing on mine.


M'be I'll have to have another conversation with him on the phone and not let him off the hook quite so easily afterall. I've had to resecure the serving on my string's center section twice now... and also the upper loop's serving once. I guess he needs to hear it from more than one source... and, I've got more limbs that could use some work too. LOL

On that Centerest... just steal one of the mounting nuts from the OEM rest and use it on the flipper side of the post and use the one that comes with the Centerest as the locking nut on the other side of the riser. Without the second nut, it won't "mount". You'd think NAP would include a threaded bushing with the rest, wouldn't ya? Anywho... with the second nut, it mounts right up.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> Without the second nut, it won't "mount". You'd think NAP would include a threaded bushing with the rest, wouldn't ya? Anywho... with the second nut, it mounts right up.


On my Dorado, I only use the supplied single nut that came with me NAP Centerest. My rest has never even came close to coming loose. It goes on the bow exactly as the pic shows. The nut is threaded onto the body. The washer goes on next. The metal body threads into the riser with the washer up against the riser. The plastic rest goes on the opposite side of the riser. It's that easy.


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

*What the heck...I got one*

Stopped by Bass Pro today to pick up some fishing lures. Took a little stroll over to the archery department. They had one on the rack so I checked it out. I checked it out real good. The kid behind the counter kept watching me till I finally explained that there were a few 'issues' with the bow and I needed to be sure this one was ok.

The only thing I found were the edges of the limbs being a little rough. Everything else was good. We put a nock on the string and took it into the range. First three arrows were off. Arrow number four in the kill zone followed by six others...sold! Got some limbsavers, string silencers and a quiver. 

It's been raining since I got home so I haven't shot it in earnest yet. I have rubbed the edges of the limbs with steel wool and they are much better. I'm thinking of doing a camo paint job on them. All the components are on. It looks pretty darn good! I'm going to reserve the string. I don't care for the serving material they use. I'm still uncertain about the rest. 

I'm looking forward to putting it through its paces.

Oh, I forgot to mention. With a gift certificate and rewards points I had the total out of pocket cost for everything (plus a bag of licorice) was $28.00 !!


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*There's the difference...*



AKM said:


> The nut is threaded onto the body. The washer goes on next. The metal body threads into the riser with the washer up against the riser. The plastic rest goes on the opposite side of the riser. It's that easy.


On the Jaguar, there is no "threaded" housing/bushing for it to thread into. The Jaguar has a machined "slot" cut into the arrow side of the riser. So... the second "nut" goes into that slot and is what the body threads into... the washer/supplied nut (with the rest) goes onto the other side of the riser.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Good on ya... LOL...*



vlcnrydr said:


> Stopped by Bass Pro today to pick up some fishing lures. Took a little stroll over to the archery department. They had one on the rack so I checked it out. I checked it out real good. The kid behind the counter kept watching me till I finally explained that there were a few 'issues' with the bow and I needed to be sure this one was ok.
> 
> The only thing I found were the edges of the limbs being a little rough. Everything else was good. We put a nock on the string and took it into the range. First three arrows were off. Arrow number four in the kill zone followed by six others...sold! Got some limbsavers, string silencers and a quiver.
> 
> ...


They are a nice little bow ! The "plunger" portion (if you will) of the OEM rest seems to wear very quickly. I've put a few hundred arrows through my initial one and it's showing considerable wear (it's all plastic) with the carbon arrows I've been using. 

Congrats on pickin' one up.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Where online could one get this wax?


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

The washer I have is too small and it bent trying to tighten the rest down. If I use a second nut, I feel like I can't get the rest left of center. But I haven't measured yet. By eye... I have the rest pegged to the left and it can't go no further. But I'm pretty new to recurves so I could be screwing something up.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Try this...*



mossanimal said:


> The washer I have is too small and it bent trying to tighten the rest down. If I use a second nut, I feel like I can't get the rest left of center. But I haven't measured yet. By eye... I have the rest pegged to the left and it can't go no further. But I'm pretty new to recurves so I could be screwing something up.


From the face of the plunger (felt pad) to the inner riser face (not the machined inlet)... 1/2". I did the same distance with it as I did with the OEM rest. I've had really nice results with that distance on the OEM rest. That'll give ya almost 4 threads between the outer nut and the adjuster's nurled nob.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Where online could one get this wax?


paste minwax finishing wax
http://www.minwax.com/products/specialty_products/paste_finishing_wax.html


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> On the Jaguar, there is no "threaded" housing/bushing for it to thread into.


Sorry! I did no know that.:embara:


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Martin does sell a machined aluminum threaded bushing on their online store that fits nicely in that slot.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

I will give that a shot Ratdog... thanks. It's been awhile since I messed with it. Making these damn wooden bows keeps getting in the way.


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## SCS (Jun 27, 2005)

Use a 5/16-24 nut. It will fit in the recess on the shelf side of the riser.
Steve


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Martin does sell a machined aluminum threaded bushing on their online store that fits nicely in that slot.


something like this *Slide Slot Nut - BP18*:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*No problemo...*



AKM said:


> Sorry! I did no know that.:embara:


:darkbeer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*'Das what we really needs....*



SandSquid said:


> something like this *Slide Slot Nut - BP18*:


Much more gooder means of securing a rest to the riser. Thanks Sandsquid.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> Thanks Sandsquid.


I'm just an ÜberGeek


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I'm assuming...*



SandSquid said:


> I'm just an ÜberGeek


that's a Martin part number you posted with it?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> that's a Martin part number you posted with it?


Indeed it is.... 

If you click on the picture it _should_ take you directly to the product on Martin's online sales site.

It's a whopping *$4.47 *


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Omg !!!*



SandSquid said:


> Indeed it is....
> 
> If you click on the picture it _should_ take you directly to the product on Martin's online sales site.
> 
> It's a whopping *$4.47 *


I could buy four Hoyts for that !! LOL (Hi Teucer) :darkbeer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SandSquid said:


> Indeed it is....
> 
> If you click on the picture it _should_ take you directly to the product on Martin's online sales site.
> 
> It's a whopping *$4.47 *


I just knew that they was goin to have to nickel and dime me to profit.... 

Mine showed up at the post office today... we'll see about it later...

Aloha....  :beer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*That's not needed*



rattus58 said:


> I just knew that they was goin to have to nickel and dime me to profit....
> 
> Mine showed up at the post office today... we'll see about it later...
> 
> Aloha....  :beer:


for the OEM rest... however... when the OEM one wears out... save one of the nuts to use with a more durable aftermarket one... like the NAP Centerest.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Ratdog68 said:


> for the OEM rest... however... when the OEM one wears out... save one of the nuts to use with a more durable aftermarket one... like the NAP Centerest.


I was being facetious... I've never used a commercial rest since maybe 1990. Even when I was a Darton Dealer, the bows I shot, when I did shoot them, were off the shelf with wood arrows... this will be no different... in fact I should picture how my Dorado looks and post it so's you all can see my machinations...

Aloha... Tom  :beer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Very good... carry on.


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

*Noise!!!*

I don’t know if any of you are experiencing this but I had one helluva noise when shooting the Jaguar. I could not figure it out. I removed the quiver thinking it was that…nope. Then I thought it might be the string when it came back and hit the limbs…nope. I even thought it might be the arrow striking the riser but it wasn’t that either.

It wasn’t until I removed the limbs for the 20th time that I discovered the problem. The limbs on the Jaguar have a 3/8 hole drilled through them for the limb bolts that are only 5/16 leaving quite a space for the limbs to move around even with the bolt tightened. I had to do something about it.

I got a couple of 2” 3/8 16 bolts and a couple of 3/8 by 1 1/2” fender washers. Next I took and 3/8 16 tap and tapped out the holes in the risers the limb bolts went into. I ran the tap as far as I could go before bottoming out. Cleaned out the newly tapped holes and drilled out the 5/16 holes in the washers that came with the bow to 3/8. I placed the new fender washer between the two ‘issued’ washers. This allows for just a little more torque when tightening the new limb bolts which I then used to tighten down the limbs.

Problem solved…Noise gone! :dancing:

A secondary potential problem this took care of is the possibility of loosing one or both of those ‘nuts’ the limb bolts use to screw into. They are no longer needed.

The bow is sooo quiet now. It went from sounding like hitting two sticks together to nothing. The only thing I hear is the string. (I don’t have the silencers on it yet). I love it when a plan works!

Total cost for the fix…around $8.00!
(I bought the good bolts)


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Hmmm.... I've noticed the noise in mine too. Fur balls helped, hair pads where the string touches the limbs seemed to help a bit. I've been planning on adding some limbsavers next. I just may have to amend that thought and give your plan of attack some serious consideration. Thanks for that. :darkbeer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Well I've finally gotten the old Martin together... and I've got to repair the limb already where I ripped off the fiberglass cuz the limbs wouldn't fit. That was the start.... the next item was a bushing that the hold down bolts screw into wouldn't fit. Here I had to break out the dremel.... and here I wonder about the college kid wanted an inexpensive bow to go shooting and hunting with.... Dremel? You could work this with a dowel and some emery paper or sand paper... but geeeze....

Geometry.... This bow looks weird. The handle is not aligned with the limbs and yes I know this doesn't mean squat, but the handle looks... LOOKS... I haven't been able to measure it or anything... but weird.

The limbs didn't have any markings on them, so A went on top, B on the bottom. The bow is light enough I guess but the shooting will be the test. The shelf slopes away from the riser, so I'l have to do a little gerryrigging there for the rest.

Aloha.... Tom  :beer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Yup... my first one... the limbs didn't nestle in... but they fixed it. Overall... I think you'll enjoy how it shoots.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

By the way of just nothing else to talk about this evening.... I've got a miniature Pincer that all over weird.... 1st... and this is a papered dog too.... but coloring is strange.... dog is reddish brown with back hairs all through her coat so that she "changes" in the light.... freakish.... 

However that aint the story of this dog.... this dog's name is Little for short, short for little princess thirtythreeletterhawaiianname that my son's ex girfriend done wrote up on the whatsitsname form... and this dog it turns out has whiskers like a rat..... so the pooch has this nick.... instead of ratatouille... it's become rat-a-too.... ratdogtwo.... sorta.... 

Aloha....  :beer:


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

*How does it shoot??*

Well...we all know the fit and finish issues and I guess with the price tag it's something that we can all live with or fix ourselves.

My question now is...how well does the bow shoot?


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

GVDocHoliday said:


> My question now is...how well does the bow shoot?



Now that the noise is gone I'll be determining that today.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*LOL Years ago...*



rattus58 said:


> By the way of just nothing else to talk about this evening.... I've got a miniature Pincer that all over weird.... 1st... and this is a papered dog too.... but coloring is strange.... dog is reddish brown with back hairs all through her coat so that she "changes" in the light.... freakish....
> 
> However that aint the story of this dog.... this dog's name is Little for short, short for little princess thirtythreeletterhawaiianname that my son's ex girfriend done wrote up on the whatsitsname form... and this dog it turns out has whiskers like a rat..... so the pooch has this nick.... instead of ratatouille... it's become rat-a-too.... ratdogtwo.... sorta....
> 
> Aloha....  :beer:


my phone would ring, and upon answering, I'd hear my cousin's voice (think of a heavy breathing/perv type caller) say: "You a DOG... a canine RAT dog !!" So... Ratdog sorta stuck. It was years later that I found out there was a band with the name. I get asked all the time if I'm a fan or something. Never even heard their stuff.


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## SoCalArcher (May 22, 2009)

It took 11 weeks, but I finally received my Martin Jaguar Recurve. Following are my impressions of the Martin Jaguar Recurve: The NG1 Camo film dip is poor at best; several wrinkles and sharp edges. The standard elevated rest is trash; I replaced it with a Whisker Biscuit and Martin Loc-Mount ($62). The limbs are extremely poor quality; probably the worst and cheapest set of limbs I've seen. These limbs are identical to what I've seen on a beginner childs bow "Matrix Takedown Recurve", manufactured in Italy. Also, this bow is very noisy with lots of hand shock. The Martin Jaguar Recurve reminds me of Microsoft's Vista OS; with all its short comings - push it through, fix it later. OK, I appreciate the $122 price tag; which means it costs about $40 to produce. To improve quality, the price does not need to increase. Being a discontinued compound riser, the casting mold has more than paid for itself already; but please, put a bit more effort into the limbs! The Martin Jaguar Recurve is not consistent with Martin quality.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Thats it right there*

SoCal

Thanks for being to the point. I've been very unimpressed with the quality of Martin's low end bows. I'll include my Mamba to the list. What really ticks me off about this bow is how it's being pushed to the people just starting out. I can't think of a worse way to get people to drop the sport. Martin needs to get in line with this. They have excellent service, that just means they love to take your money and so what if you have to keep sending them back the bow. Quality of the box is more important than customer service.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

My two arrived (finally) yesterday and the shop owner was more p!zz*d off than I was... I kinda knew what to expect based upon what I've ben reading here, but he was fuming mad. I took one riser with me to fiddle with while I was on vacation, the rest of that pile of [email protected] is going back to Martin.


 Ordered 30# limb, waited many months, no joy 
Told them to go ahead and send 35#, we got sent 40#
the 40# limbs wouldn't fit inthe limb pockets 
But I have a spare pair of GreaTree limbs fit perfectly
 Barrel nut (to retain the limb bolt) will not fit in the hole
the "carbon weave" film dip was WAY thick!!




> You could work this with a dowel and some emery paper or sand paper...


Aye that is my plan.




> Geometry.... This bow looks weird.


I've been driving for 32 hours so I have not had time to string the bow yet...




> The limbs didn't have any markings on them, so A went on top, B on the bottom.


*B* for *B*ottom, easy to remember!


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

The last two posts pretty much are what I'm gathering from this entire thread. Basically 5 pages of shortcomings and how to fix them. 

For the time spent, I think I'd be better off with a Quinn.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

GVDocHoliday said:


> The last two posts pretty much are what I'm gathering from this entire thread. Basically 5 pages of shortcomings and how to fix them.


well that _is_ what Archery Talk is supposed to be all about, after-all.....




> For the time spent, I think I'd be better off with a Quinn


The ONE saving grace for me, actually something that I'm really digging, is that all the limbs that fit the Ragim, KAP, and Greatree, etc. risers also fit the Jaguar riser (Well duh, they came from the same factory in Italy) 

So I have a pretty much indestructable riser and a wide assortment of inexpensive limbs. This means I can pretty much just install a wisker biscut and I can hand them to the "beginner" kids and really not worry about them damaging the bows... Plus I'll have something for them to shoot while I wait for some useable limbs from Martin... or at least the horrible ones that showed up to be reworked.


And, considering they are going to be "Program Bows" for the Church and I don't really care about nor ever expected "competition quality", I was able to stretch my annual youth group budget at the church just a little bit furter. 

Heck, I actually have enough left over to get another dozen Buck Buster arrows from VeroShooter and have a Pizza and Ice Cream party for the kids at the end of "Summer Bow & Bible Camp".


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear about everyones problems.When I got my bow, everything went together perfectly. Granted the OEM rest sucked, but everything else is in order.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

sback05 said:


> I'm sorry to hear about everyones problems.When I got my bow, everything went together perfectly. Granted the OEM rest sucked, but everything else is in order.


Was yours one of the first runs? 
Did your limbs had the classic Martin script handwriting on the face of the limbs <or> have the limbs labeled "A" abd "B" on the sides?

I think it pretty much went to h&ll when:

They got burried in a back-log of orders.
Had to outsource limb production to catch/keep up.

Once I relieve the inside of barrel nut holes of the excess film so they actually insert without the aid of a drift and hammer, and clean up the inside of the limb cups similarly 75% of the fit issues will be resolved. 

Then we just need to have the limbs width adjusted to fit in the limb cups, and finish sanded with something finer than a 120 grit belt sander.

Still, the local Pro Shop/Dealer or Customer should NOT be the Q.C. Department.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

SoCalArcher said:


> The limbs are extremely poor quality; probably the worst and cheapest set of limbs I've seen.


I paid _more_ for some Ragim and Greatree bows that has some _seriously_ cheap limbs.

Based upon the price, I still think it _can be_ better than a lot of the other low end bows out there... that is if the limb and riser fit/finish issues are addressed.


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

my limbs had A B on the limbs. They were snug, but I didn't have to pound them in, just put a thumb on each edge and pushed down. They went right in.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> in fact I should picture how my Dorado looks and post it so's you all can see my machinations...
> 
> Aloha... Tom  :beer:


I wish you would post those pics. I just tried shooting my Dorado off the shelf and I couldn't get rid of a nock high to save my life. I still want to give it a try and am curious as to what you have done.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Ratdog68 said:


> my phone would ring, and upon answering, I'd hear my cousin's voice (think of a heavy breathing/perv type caller) say: "You a DOG... a canine RAT dog !!" So... Ratdog sorta stuck. It was years later that I found out there was a band with the name. I get asked all the time if I'm a fan or something. Never even heard their stuff.


Rattus came from me complaining about them environmentalist types letting rats have their way with our forest birds... Once I can agree with... maybe even twice... but to make a study of rats eating eggs of threatened and endangered birds over and over... is beyond ridiculous... and STUPID... so... being the royal pain I can be, I got the monicar... ratman.... 

However I've gotten my Jaguar and started working on it to bring it up to centershot... And here is my Dorado as a comparison. I've shot the Dorado from Centershot like it is and so far it shoots a 4" Ducky now 4 out of 4.









Notice the handle is offset from the limbs a tad in this photo..









Bulky by comparison to the Dorado









Another look









The rest set up









Building out to centershot









This didn't come out exactly as I had thought it would, but the arrow is pretty much just slightly left of centershot... 

Aloha....  :beer:


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

I took it out yesterday for a little shooting test. I'm not unhappy with the results.

I brought 6 arrows. 3 2016's with nibbs and 3 2018's with 100 gr FT. both cut to 29".

I shot at a large foam target with a centered 8" round "kill zone" from 20 yds.

10 6 shot rounds resulted in 48 arrows in the kill and 12 outside. I think that’s pretty good for a "problem" bow. Two things I learned were that the bow likes the 2018's best and even though the paperwork recommends a brace height of 7-71/2" things are a lot smoother with a brace height between 8 and 8 1/2".


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> Building out to centershot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pics.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

vlcnrydr said:


> I took it out yesterday for a little shooting test. I'm not unhappy with the results.
> 
> I brought 6 arrows. 3 2016's with nibbs and 3 2018's with 100 gr FT. both cut to 29".
> 
> ...


I agree, at 8 inches it gets quiet and is very forgiving. Mine is a great shooter. I am thinking that even with all the problems once folks get it tuned up and start shooting it we will se some different kind of posts on this thread.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Dude! Are you watching porn??


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

LOL I was wonderin' that too.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

GVDocHoliday said:


> Dude! Are you watching porn??



Hahahhaa.... I've never been accused of abandoning my rights as an adult... however YOU TWO DIRTY OL MEN.... have really hyperactive imagination... This is good.... some day there will be only the clouds.... 

That mammilian appendage you all is focused...  is actually the shot of that guy in the Kingsford Commercial lighting the charcoal rather than doing the salad.... and what you all is focused on are his fingers and the match....  tsk tsk tsk but in YOUR DEFENSE..... Porn IS in the eye of the BEHOLDER.... Hehehehehe..... 

:grin:  :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Geeeeezus.... and FURTHER in your defense... I ask my wife... "Hey woman, come tell me what this is please.... and she sayed... sweetly and all.... "You're watching dirty movies and you muted it so I wouldn't hear!"

Now I'm fully convinced..... 

Aloha... Tom  :beer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Lmao !!!*



rattus58 said:


> Geeeeezus.... and FURTHER in your defense... I ask my wife... "Hey woman, come tell me what this is please.... and she sayed... sweetly and all.... "You're watching dirty movies and you muted it so I wouldn't hear!"
> 
> Now I'm fully convinced.....
> 
> Aloha... Tom  :beer:


Otay... you're off the hook this time. I recognize it now. :darkbeer:


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

My Jaguars arrived the same day we were leaving for Vacation, and they were totally unsat the way they arrived. The film dip was inside the barren nut holes so thick they needed to be pounded in place with a drift. The limb cups were similarly gooped up.

We then found the limbs were just a bit too wide to fit in the limb cups even after carefull taking a razor blade followed by Emory Paper to it. Attached are some pictures of the clean-up process.

The limbs and one riser are being sent back to Martin, I took the other riser, rest and string with me to give me something to fiddle with while on leave.

After cleaning out the barrel nut holes w/ a round file of the correct diameter I them polished it up w/ some Emory paper stuck to a slightly smaller dowel. Basically I made my own flap sander… With the barrel nut holes cleaned up the barrel nuts slid into place like all the other Martins we own.

You can also see the casting imperfections that were under the film dip below.

I'm seriously considering applying a wire wheel to this riser followed by a rattle-can of Krylon

Not having any Martin limbs, I mounted some Internature Bullseye limbs. They are a perfect fit.

Many folks have already commented on having the center serving of their string come loose at the bottom, I can see why. Whoever finished them off only back-served 6 wraps. Just plain lazy! Anybody who has made more than 2 strings in their life knows you are supposed to back-serve at least 15 wraps.

The rest, well yeah, it’s a flimsy POS, but it works well. I got it installed and adjusted for center shot in about 45 seconds.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

With all that being said, I nocked up an arrow and stepped back about 20 feet from "the BIG tree" a really really BIG tree.... out back and "aimed" at a small sapling that was growing in front of it... just to give me a reference point to adjust my rest... Well I be darned if I didn't split that sucker! I think the rest is adjusted well enough! (The very bottom picture was taken from where I shot.)

OK so maybe it was sheer luck... I went out to a big open field (cow pasture) and just let the arrows fly as far as they could, to see if the went off left or right... They flew perfectly straight to the maximum range of the bow w/ 25# limbs on it.

The bow (as it is) is a shooter... It's quiet, has enough mass to give something to resist in the bow hand but it's not a bout anchor either. Soon as I get some proper weight and properly finished limbs back from Martin I'll be able to report on it as a "whole unit". But despite all the grief I had to go through to get it shooting, I would love to say the bow was a terd, but it isn't, it is an honest to goodness shooter.


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

Some photos of the riser work:

First pic is of the limb, riser and original bolt and bushing.

Second is of the original bolt in the limb hole.

Third is limb bolt hole in the riser after being tapped.

Forth is of the new limb bolts with the added 11/2" fender washer. Felt helps with a tight fit.

Fifth is of the rest with the felt added to get rid of the squeal.


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

This shot shows the new limb bolt in place. No limb attached


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vlcnrydr said:


> Third is limb bolt hole in the riser after being tapped.


Mark,
Am I interpreting this correctly... You are using a larger diameter bolt secured by threads you tapped into the riser, and completely forgoing the use of the barrel nut ? Are you at all concerned about stripping those newly formed threads w/ a hardened steel bolt in an aluminum thread?


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

Not really. To be honest with you It didn't cross my mind until after I had tapped out the riser...duh. (I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer)

I found that after turning them till the washers hit the risers it only takes a little more than a quarter turn to tighten them as much as needed.

I've had them out and the limbs off 6 or 7 times since, checking each time for signs of a problem. So far nothing. The bolts come out clean and there are no signs of problems with the new threads. 

It's something I'll continue to check after shooting. I'm in the process of making a case for it that will require taking it apart after each shoot.

Probably not the best answer to your question but for now it's working. I'm not going to sweat it...what's done is done. This is one heck of a quiet bow now. All I hear are the whiskers when I release an arrow.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vlcnrydr said:


> This is one heck of a quiet bow now. All I hear are the whiskers when I release an arrow.


Despite all the "issues" everybody is having, I've only heard of one owner saying they didn't like shooting the Jaguar. I've bee shooting mine "lefty" all afternoon, and I keep trying to find something new to complain about but I really cannot.

I was musing on your issue of the limbs moving,though you might just have been able to add a bushing around the bolt to snug up in the limbs bolt hole... sorta like the black rubber grommet that the KAP, Greatree and Internature, etc. take-down limbs have to them


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Despite all the "issues" everybody is having, I've only heard of one owner saying they didn't like shooting the Jaguar. I've bee shooting mine "lefty" all afternoon, and I keep trying to find something new to complain about but I really cannot.


It's been raining here since last Thursday. Saturday I was able to get a couple hours in. Tomorrow It's suppose to stop. I intend to do a lot of shooting. Different yds, angles and elevations. I'm looking forward to it.


> I was musing on your issue of the limbs moving,though you might just have been able to add a bushing around the bolt to snug up in the limbs bolt hole... sorta like the black rubber grommet that the KAP, Greatree and Internature, etc. take-down limbs have to them


Yeah your right but I'm that guy that gets an idea and it's damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead......


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Despite all the "issues" everybody is having, I've only heard of one owner saying they didn't like shooting the Jaguar. I've bee shooting mine "lefty" all afternoon, and I keep trying to find something new to complain about but I really cannot.
> 
> I was musing on your issue of the limbs moving,though you might just have been able to add a bushing around the bolt to snug up in the limbs bolt hole... sorta like the black rubber grommet that the KAP, Greatree and Internature, etc. take-down limbs have to them



Yep, I shoot my Jag better than my other bows. I don't know why but I do. I want to put it up and spend time with my new longbow to get ready for hunting season, but then I brace it up and go out and shoot it again.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

I could see also just putting a couple wraps of shrink tubing around the bolts as well. 

I'd have no problem just taking the limbs and giving them a paint job with automotive bumper paint. I've used it before on compound limbs and I've never had a problem with cracking or chipping. I'd probably fill that void in the limb pockets with some silicone or something. I'd only take an afternoon to get her right I guess.

I may have to get one just to play...I guess it's cheap enough. Besides, it'd be kinda neat to say I shot a deer with a 100.00 bow.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Mark? May I suggest*



vlcnrydr said:


> This shot shows the new limb bolt in place. No limb attached


that you coat the threads of the bolts with some anti-seize? The dissimilar metals are prone to electrolysis, causing the bolts to eventually seize into the riser. 

I understand that you intend to take the bow down and store it after each shooting session... it's just "an ounce of prevention" suggestion for your consideration.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vlcnrydr said:


> It's been raining here since last Thursday. Saturday I was able to get a couple hours in. Tomorrow It's suppose to stop. I intend to do a lot of shooting. Different yds, angles and elevations. I'm looking forward to it.


I hope so, it's been raining up here in NH since we rolled in.... I'm headed out to go scout the course at Bear Brook State Park and see what's going on. Back when we lived here (1991-2003) it used to be a fantastic course. I do hope to get some real shooting in since I went through all teh trouble to pack the bows.


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## Okie1bow (Jul 26, 2006)

*Good enough???*

Man, are you guy's patient! And for that I give you credit. If Martin advertizes "unfinished tips and limb sides, with slivers here and there and the possibility the riser and limbs won't connect because of their error" then so be it. Otherwise, send them all back and attach a copy of your e-mail to Martins GM with everything you see wrong. Be sure to include an "RGA" #; "Return Goods Authorization", That's the return # Martin will use to ID the return package and know exactly what the problems are.

I don't care what level of bow you buy, as a manufacture, there are a minimum of items you must do to build and sell a new bow [or anything else for that matter]. Proper connecting limbs and risers, no slivers, finished tips and limb sides are just a few. It appears that this particular bow does not meet Martin's standards. Why then, should you allow it to meet yours? The minute you start repairs; you've bought it!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Okie1bow said:


> Otherwise, send them all back and attach a copy of your e-mail to Martins GM with everything you see wrong.



You are absolutely correct, the way these bows are being sent out of Wall Walla, is absolutely unacceptable to the "average" customer.


Believe me, the Owner of my Pro Shop was "Extremely Perturbed" after attempting to assemble my Jaguars... These were the first Jaguars that ever came through the doors of his shop and he has several more on order behind mine for other customers. 

He is not of a mind to accept anything that is not up to par with the Martin name/reputation. 

I overheard part of his "conversation" with the General Manager at Martin. There were quite a few expletives employed. _He_ wanted to box it _all_ up and send it all back to Martin, actually he used words more like: "Shove this pile of <fecal material> right back up the <rectum> it was <excreted> out of." 

_I_ opted to keep one riser to fiddle with since I have a few weeks of R&R and I have access to a milling machine if I need one, where I'm at, while on vacation.


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## trentcur (Feb 26, 2009)

*man............*



Teucer said:


> SoCal
> 
> Thanks for being to the point. I've been very unimpressed with the quality of Martin's low end bows. I'll include my Mamba to the list. What really ticks me off about this bow is how it's being pushed to the people just starting out. I can't think of a worse way to get people to drop the sport. Martin needs to get in line with this. They have excellent service, that just means they love to take your money and so what if you have to keep sending them back the bow. Quality of the box is more important than customer service.



Man guys...... I dunno-

I really rattled Teucer's cage over his bash on the Jag a while back....... but man alive- after seeing all the posts of the consumer trying to figure out a way to fix the mistakes made by the manufacturer........... I gta think that he may have had a point.

This bow def said wonders to me about martin..... and I have to say that I am not sure I would buy another one. I loved some of my older martins..... but they def cut some corners on this one. I would rather pay the little extra and get another brand...... one that I can get in a reasonable time frame and not have to finish it myself.

Do you guys still feel that this was a great bow for the $?


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*My view of the big picture of this bow is...*



trentcur said:


> Man guys...... I dunno-
> 
> I really rattled Teucer's cage over his bash on the Jag a while back....... but man alive- after seeing all the posts of the consumer trying to figure out a way to fix the mistakes made by the manufacturer........... I gta think that he may have had a point.
> 
> ...


Martin wanted to break into the market share of the entry level bows. In order to be able to compete, they opted for an inexpensive limb vendor... and bought a whole shipment of them. Instead of selling the bow as a joint venture and declaring that you're getting a Martin riser and "Luigi's" limbs (sold ala carte)... they chose to put their name on the product of an unknown/overseas company. Now... they have to make good on their choice. 

The problem with the limbs isn't whether they work well... they do. The issue is that "Luigi" didn't fit/finish the limbs to the standards which we've all come to expect from a Martin product. Martin rolled the dice and became more worried about filling back orders flooding them... rather than ensuring the product was to the standard of a Martin product (Damon Howatt quality as well). 

Additionally, to compete (price), they opted for an inexpensive rest. It works well, but is noisy and wears quickly. There's also the string. My Martin X-200 hasn't had a problem with the serving... but, the string for my Jaguar has needed a serving repair three times within the first 300 arrows shot. Mossanimal has had serving issues with his string. They work... but, aren't top shelf items (all part of the "bargain basement market share" they're trying to get a slice of).

The "noise"? Well... That's about the only thing I haven't nailed down yet on my bow... but, I'm going to tinker with a few things to see if I can nail it down. I suspect it's going to be a pretty simple fix (overall). 

Service... Ok... this is also subjective. Yes, it took FIVE rounds for Martin to get it right with bow #1 of mine. I suspect they're rather swamped with "fixits" with this model (fit/finish of the limbs), as well as still trying to catch up with the back-orders. I'm willing to give that fair consideration since the words from their mouth each time I talked to them was to say how sorry they were for the problem and that they will correct it. And... they made good on doing so. Now... I've got two more sets of limbs for them to "fix". Hearing Mossanimal's tale of being told to take his string complaint to the seller gives me cause to dig my heels in a bit. They're going to receive the next two sets of limbs and they ARE going to be done to my satisfaction.

The bow is a shooter. It's a great price for a bow. I enjoy shooting it. No regrets for buying more than one. My opinion is that Martin may've been smarter to do what Toyota did when they offerd up their bargain basement cars and called 'em a "Scion". What I'm waiting to see is... will Martin buck-up and make it work, or will this experience cause them to bail out of the bargain basement market share and work on rebuilding their "rep" without the low-end stuff?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*wow what a mess*

Guys I hope you are all getting a pay check from martin to fix their poorly finished product... I would not sell one of these to any one with the number of fixes mentioned in this thread... You can buy numerous bows out their in that price range that go together and shoot thousands of arrows with no issues... as for saying they give good service no they don`t they shouldn`t sell this stuff.. I don`t care how many times you call them.. time is money.. and the average beginner shooter does not have a milling machine or taps and dies to finish these bows... I can just about guarantee some one will get hurt and there will be a law suit because of a inferior product... My advise spend more and buy a good product......


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Sorry, can't agree with all you detail ClassicHunter... those who are using taps/dies, or milling machines... they're opting to simply change how things are used. The bows go together quite well with the supplied hardware (except for ill fitting limbs). The reason mine took five phone calls was that my first one arrived with only three things in the box... two limbs and a riser. It took four rounds of "Uhhh... send me the rest of the parts/pieces." In the end, they gave me some spare parts to have as extras for my trouble. They got the "fix" to the limbs "right" the first time they got 'em back... and, said all the right things (to me) to assure me they'd make it right... and, have to date. 

I'm sure not going to be filing a law suit because I got a splinter in my finger. I'll chew someone's arse for neglecting to fix it and take a pound of flesh from 'em if they fail to follow through... but, I don't see ANYTHING about this bow which is "dangerous" to shoot.

Again... perspective. If I was seeing a few issues with one of their top of the line bows which I'd paid through the nose to acquire... yeah... I'd be mad as all get out over it... but, I'm not expecting all the high-end accesories of a Lexus when I'm buying a Scion. I just had to poke some fun at 'em for sending me a bow without some little detail items, like a string, rest, limb bolts, barrel nuts, washers, owner's manual... and, while I'm at it...fix the limbs' fit/finish. 

These are by no means my only bows. I have close to 30 recurve/longbows and a couple of vintage wheeled bows.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> Martin wanted to break into the market share of the entry level bows. In order to be able to compete, they opted for an inexpensive limb vendor... and bought a whole shipment of them.


_Now this is all Hear-Say (so take it w/ a grain of salt) but it did come form a "reputable source"..... _ They started making the limbs at the Damon Howatt and very quickly realized they had no hope of meeting and keeping up w/ the call for their established production and make the Jaguar limbs. they simply under-estimated the demand for the Jaguars and had to make a decision to stop accepting back-orders from their dealers or to outsource, they chose to out-source. And they still have 3-4 Days of work to do on the limbs even after they get them from their supplier. (sanding, sealing, applying decals and deflection testing.)


I very firmly believe they simply got slammed with orders because everybody wants a "Martin quality bow" at a ridiculously low price.
*Remember the old saying you can have it good, fast or cheap, pick one*



> they chose to put their name on the product of an unknown/overseas company.


If you do a bit of educated research, it is not hard to deduce where their limbs are coming from... and it isn't exactly an unknown company. 
In fact they _can_ produce some great limbs or some mediocre limbs. At the price point of the Jaguar they are probably getting "raw" mid-range limbs, ant trying to finish them inhouse at a break-neck pace, and it's biting them in the butt.



> Now... they have to make good on their choice.


Indeed. It's the same way in the Contractor's world, you are only as good as your Sub's, and you are on the hook to clean up after them.



> The problem with the limbs isn't whether they work well... they do.


Cannot comment on that because I have not shot them yet... but the geometry of the riser sure works well.



> The issue is that "Luigi" didn't fit/finish the limbs to the standards which we've all come to expect from a Martin product.


They certainly could have if Martin wanted to pony up the cash... but then the limbs would have cost more to buy that they are getting for the entire bow, I believe.




> Martin rolled the dice and became more worried about filling back orders flooding them... rather than ensuring the product was to the standard of a Martin product (Damon Howatt quality as well).



Well, it was either that or stop taking back-orders.

We are a very small (but vocal) sub-set of the archery community.

I'm sure there are hundreds of bows already out there being "cleaned up" by the local dealers to satisfy the hungry masses.



> each time I talked to them was to say how sorry they were for the problem and that they will correct it. And... they made good on doing so.



To me _this is the mark of a decent Company... customer support after the sale._ They could have just said "Tough sheet kiddo, what did you expect for $119.00!?!?!?!"



> Now... I've got two more sets of limbs for them to "fix". Hearing Mossanimal's tale of being told to take his string complaint to the seller gives me cause to dig my heels in a bit. They're going to receive the next two sets of limbs and they ARE going to be done to my satisfaction.



On the subject of strings, I always view the stock strings that come on bows as a "starter set" and completely disposable, and usually junk to begin with... The first thing _I_ do with _every_ bow I get is make up a new set and keep the original as a master/pattern.


I've seen quite a few brand new (traditional) strings come out of the box and be the wrong length and the dealer whip up a new on on the sport while the customer waited...

A decent local dealer should be able to take care of such a minor problem and re-serve the original string in about 5 minutes or hand make a complete new one in 30 minutes. OK, [email protected]*Sh*p, no, but a good old fashioned mom&pop archery shop, absolutely. Just one more reason to frequent your local dealer.

Now don't get me wrong, *I'm not defending Martin.* _But I am saying that I fully understand the issues at work and appreciate the troubles they are having._ 
*I'm 100% sure the 2010 model Jaguars will be of much better fit and finish quality, and at least $50.00 more retail price.
*

There is a reason it's called being "on the bleeding edge" ;-)


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*att rat dog 68*

Sorry but you must be a martin paid shooter ... Please read your last post just the first paragraph without bias... would you buy a bow or except that quality if persay it was a cd player and the lid keeps falling off etc etc no way SORRY BUT YOUR MAKING EXCUSES FOR A POORLY PRODUCED PRODUCT... and a law suit for a splinter no but when a limb falls off and takes some ones eye out then may be... also lets see after 2000 shots how they hold up... and stay together... Sorry but you don`t get poor quality like this from most brand name companies...Don`t you think a good company would cease production until qc came up to snuff... If I owned the company and I have owned several companies I would not stand for this many complaints.. these threads don`t make me want to run out and buy one....


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

I believe we're in agreement with it all SandSquid... just puting it to words in a little different manner.

As for the originals being Damon Howatt... I'd say take that to the bank. I asked Joel to find me a set of their original Damon Howatt limbs for it, he said he'd do his best... and eventually wasn't able to locate any of them for me. So... I have the Luigi specials for all three of mine. All in all... it's now a purdy bow and shoots well. I'll find the source of the buzz and quiet her down. This morning I schmooied in some black silicone into the cavities which hold the barrel nuts and tooled it smooth, bedding the barrel nuts into place. I'll let that cure and shoot the bow and see how it does. Next step will be to increase the brace height a bit and see how that does. Why didn't I do that first? I want the barrel nuts to stay put when I take the bow down in the field without losing the barrel nuts at the worst possible time.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I have more than 2000 shots on mine. I shoot every day and lately I shoot the Jag most of the time. 

My list of problems is shorter than most I have seen.
Had to tap the cross nuts to remove burrs.
Had to lightly sand and finish the limb edges. 
My string is still perfect and the nylon rest is wearing but still has plenty of life in it.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*LOL No sir...*



CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Sorry but you must be a martin paid shooter ... Please read your last post just the first paragraph without bias... would you buy a bow or except that quality if persay it was a cd player and the lid keeps falling off etc etc no way SORRY BUT YOUR MAKING EXCUSES FOR A POORLY PRODUCED PRODUCT... and a law suit for a splinter no but when a limb falls off and takes some ones eye out then may be... also lets see after 2000 shots how they hold up... and stay together... Sorry but you don`t get poor quality like this from most brand name companies...Don`t you think a good company would cease production until qc came up to snuff... If I owned the company and I have owned several companies I would not stand for this many complaints.. these threads don`t make me want to run out and buy one....


I can only wish that:

A: I was good enough of an archer to be a paid shooter for a brand.
B: I knew for a fact that Martin is/will listen intently to the complaints.

I'm doin' my fair share of gripin' in their ear about this model. What I'm defending is whether or not the bow is safe to shoot, and whether I think it's a good bow overall. I'm also defending Martin to the extent that they're promising to make good on it, and so far... they are. That's fair. What's done is done... how are they moving ahead and working through the mess they created? 

I put mine on a scale and it measured out at 57# of draw at 28", the limbs are rated for 50#. I draw a bow the better part of 31". I've put at least 300 arrows through mine and the only "will it hold up" issue has been serving fraying a few times on the OEM string. I will be watching to see how it holds up over the long haul.

"Limbs falling off"? I suppose that anything's possible... but, I'd be surprised if that happens with the OEM hardware/mounting system. I'm not going to try to speak for those who've chosen to drill/tap the riser to change how things mount... they're on their own in that department. This is a compound bow riser... so, I'd be surprised if it's not up to the task of holding up to the kinds of loads put onto it by recurve limbs. Now, if you're suggesting the limbs are going to grenade? Well... "tic-toc..." Sorry, but I don't buy into the "sky is falling" notion with this model of bow. Yeah, it's a new model and has its issues... but I seriously doubt they're of the catastrophic failure type like is being implied.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Still no problems with mine other than the string serving falling apart. And from what Martin told me, Bowhunter Superstore has to handle that! We will see what they say....

Otherwise... now that I have my Nap Centerest (Thanks Ratdog!) optimized, I'm shooting nice groups at 30 yards and loving it. I still need to quiet her down though...

I'm happy with the bow for the price I paid... but as I go deeper and deeper into traditional archery... I kinda wish I would've saved my money for a first string bow... but it will make a nice standby when that happens.


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

I bought the bow knowing there were issues with it. I did the things to it I figured would work and geeez it looks like they did. Will it still be working come bow season? Don't know but I will be shooting it constantly till then. I guess I'll find out.


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## carloscar27 (Jun 24, 2009)

This bow looks REALLY nice!!


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

Had about a three hour window without rain this afternoon. I shot many (lost count) arrows at various distances. The bow performed beautifully.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

carloscar27 said:


> This bow looks REALLY nice!!


I'm sure this thread is doing wonders to drive all those internet enabled potential customers straight to thier local pro shops to order one up...

Honestly folks they are not bad bows, if you don't mind the potential to do a bit of finish sanding to clean up the limb edges.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vlcnrydr said:


> Had about a three hour window without rain this afternoon. I shot many (lost count) arrows at various distances. The bow performed beautifully.


Recon'ed the Archery Course at Bear Brook State park in Pembroke, NH in the pouring rain yesterday, looked good! Weather is finally clear and we are headed out with bows in hand in 5 minutes.


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Recon'ed the Archery Course at Bear Brook State park in Pembroke, NH in the pouring rain yesterday, looked good! Weather is finally clear and we are headed out with bows in hand in 5 minutes.


I know where you are. My sister has a place not to far from there in Loudon. Enjoy the day. We are starting to some breaks in the clouds this morning! 

Bout' Time!!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Just got done shooting the course, it sure shoots sweetly! Not as nice as Mrs.Squids' W&W Exfeel riser with winus limbs but it didn't nearly cost as much either. IF we were shooting for score, it would have been a close round, but she definitely _looks_ better doing it, as illustrated by the below picture. :zip:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Sandsquid,

What length bow did those limbs make up. It almost looks like a 60 inch just like the original. I know they make them for 62 and 68 inch on their risers. Just wondering. What poundage are they. And, where can you get them?


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

One more thing Sandsquid, put me on your list of Jag strings when you get back across enemy lines, I mean back from vacation........


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Eldermike said:


> Sandsquid,
> 
> What length bow did those limbs make up. It almost looks like a 60 inch just like the original. I know they make them for 62 and 68 inch on their risers. Just wondering. What poundage are they.


The limbs that were on it this morning were some of one of my "kiddie bows" Internature Bullseye limbs rated 66"=15# / 62"=17#. 

These limbs gave the same length as the "stock" limbs that came from Martin... 60" AMO 

last night, I twisted up a 57" 2-bundle Flemish Twist that fit great. I prefer a 3-bundle but I only packed 2 spools of B-50. Even as it is, it really scooted the arrows a lot better than the stock string. and at that low draw weight I needed every bit of it.

The geometry and length of the Jaguar is such that these limbs pull about 20# to 22#(guesstimate) @ my 28" Draw Length I had some issues w/ reaching the long shots this morning. The overhead brush got in the way especialy on the long uphill shots because I really had to lob the arrows in. 

I just finished swapping them out for a pair of KAP Prostyle (also stolen from one of my kiddie bows) they are rated for 66"=24# / 62"=28#. They feel like a _solid_ 30#. I know Mrs.Squids' W&W is 28# and these feel "just a pound or three heavier" to me and to her as well.



> And, where can you get them?


These I pulled off some of my "Program Bows" for my Youth Group before we left town.

I buy every set of limbs that are less than 30# I see advertised here because w/ all the kiddies in my group I can't seem to have enough of them.
(Most folks are looking to crank up their poundage, so I can usually swap down.)


Internature, Rolan, GreaTree,Mohegan or Fox Fire, all fit (more or less) The KAP's I installed are a bit narrow and could use a layer or two of 200Mi./Hr. tape on the edges, but not enough for me to fret over right now.

You can buy them retail at various outlets: here are some at Lancaster: 
KAP Prostyle Limbs 16# - 32# (in 2 lb. increments) $59.99


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Eldermike said:


> One more thing Sandsquid, put me on your list of Jag strings when you get back across enemy lines, I mean back from vacation........


There is going to be a "Jaguar Owners Special" string sale after I get home and clear out the few strings I have left in my queue.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

It's strange, I just looked at martin and the black Jaguar looks different than yours Sand. Their's is just straight black where your's has the silver/gray marks on the riser.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Yeah...*



I'm Not Ted said:


> It's strange, I just looked at martin and the black Jaguar looks different than yours Sand. Their's is just straight black where your's has the silver/gray marks on the riser.


it's got a carbon fiber look to it. If I'd've known that... I'd've ordered me up one of those. I've got two of the "Next" camo and one of another pattern.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm Not Ted said:


> It's strange, I just looked at martin and the black Jaguar looks different than yours Sand. Their's is just straight black where your's has the silver/gray marks on the riser.


It's a pseudo Carbon Fiber pattern film dip. It's kinda cool in a Rice-Boy sorta way. You know, the kids that put those fart-can exhausts and carbon fiber stickers and glowing neon lights on their Honda Civic's....

See pictures below;
That arrow in the utility pole was not a half-bad shot from 50 paces back.
Either a testament to my outstanding skill, or extremely good luck.:embara:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> There is going to be a "Jaguar Owners Special" string sale after I get home and clear out the few strings I have left in my queue.



Cool


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Huh. I really like the look of the dip. Almost more than the camo.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm Not Ted said:


> Huh. I really like the look of the dip. Almost more than the camo.


when I get riser #2 back from Martin, I'd swap you one of my Carbon Fiber for a Camo if you really like it than much.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

No thanks. I just got a new bow. I just thought it looked neat.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*You got it...*



SandSquid said:


> when I get riser #2 back from Martin, I'd swap you one of my Carbon Fiber for a Camo if you really like it than much.


Email me with particulars at. I've got an extra "Next Camo" which is NIB

DragonRiderATValhallaSixGunsDOTcom

Charles Greene


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> It's a pseudo Carbon Fiber pattern film dip. It's kinda cool in a Rice-Boy sorta way. You know, the kids that put those fart-can exhausts and carbon fiber stickers and glowing neon lights on their Honda Civic's....


SandSquid that bow sure does look good. With mine being camo I went a little different route.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> Email me with particulars at. I've got an extra "Next Camo" which is NIB
> 
> DragonRiderATValhallaSixGunsDOTcom
> 
> Charles Greene


I really don't care about color, since they are supposed to be program bows for my youth group.

I'd suggest 1:1 swap, if you'd really prefer the "Pseudo Carbon Fiber" look. It's no big wiggle to me either way. 
Though I do presume that the little miscreants are going to beat and bash these bows into a lovely "patina" of abuse that would be better hidden by a como pattern ;-(

But let us see what my other riser looks like when it gets back from re-work @ Martin I don't want to commit to trading something that may look like a turd when it gets back.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*LOL Otay....*



SandSquid said:


> I really don't care about color, since they are supposed to be program bows for my youth group.
> 
> I'd suggest 1:1 swap, if you'd really prefer the "Pseudo Carbon Fiber" look. It's no big wiggle to me either way.
> Though I do presume that the little miscreants are going to beat and bash these bows into a lovely "patina" of abuse that would be better hidden by a como pattern ;-(
> ...


Standin' by. :darkbeer:


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*After all the bashing*

Just to prove that I still have some feeling for Martin, I went out and ordered a Dreamcatcher.......not a Jaguar. Sorry guys, y'all seem happy to tinker a bow to get it right, I like to get it out of the box, string it up and never worry about it. My original Damon Mamba was like that, short, tough and deadly.

So I kept thinking on wether to go for a custom or a production bow and I choose the Dreamcatcher. Hopefully I don't have anywhere near the issues you guys have. But I give you guys credit, you keep going at it, bravo. I would of lost it by now.

I realize Martin wanted to find a way to get a bow in everyone's hand. they way they did, rush job it looks like, was in my opinion the wrong way to go. And look at it this way, if they didn't have the friendly service to back the bow up, this thread would be worse that the Bowtech General threads. :darkbeer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*No hard feelings at all Teucer...*



Teucer said:


> Just to prove that I still have some feeling for Martin, I went out and ordered a Dreamcatcher.......not a Jaguar. Sorry guys, y'all seem happy to tinker a bow to get it right, I like to get it out of the box, string it up and never worry about it. My original Damon Mamba was like that, short, tough and deadly.
> 
> So I kept thinking on wether to go for a custom or a production bow and I choose the Dreamcatcher. Hopefully I don't have anywhere near the issues you guys have. But I give you guys credit, you keep going at it, bravo. I would of lost it by now.
> 
> I realize Martin wanted to find a way to get a bow in everyone's hand. they way they did, rush job it looks like, was in my opinion the wrong way to go. And look at it this way, if they didn't have the friendly service to back the bow up, this thread would be worse that the Bowtech General threads. :darkbeer:


I'm happy to agree to disagree with someone on a subject and still consider them "friend". I hope the DreamCatcher is all you hope it to be and serves you flawlessly for many years to come.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*That's what it's all about*

Thanks bud,

That's what where here for, smack each other up, and then go out for a beer. Now why can't women understand :wink:

I'll keep ya posted on the Dreamcatcher.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Errr... just refrain from considering the term "knocking each other up"... and we'll get along just fine. :darkbeer:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Teucer said:


> Just to prove that I still have some feeling for Martin, I went out and ordered a Dreamcatcher.......not a Jaguar. Sorry guys, y'all seem happy to tinker a bow to get it right, I like to get it out of the box, string it up and never worry about it. My original Damon Mamba was like that, short, tough and deadly.
> 
> So I kept thinking on wether to go for a custom or a production bow and I choose the Dreamcatcher. Hopefully I don't have anywhere near the issues you guys have. But I give you guys credit, you keep going at it, bravo. I would of lost it by now.
> 
> I realize Martin wanted to find a way to get a bow in everyone's hand. they way they did, rush job it looks like, was in my opinion the wrong way to go. And look at it this way, if they didn't have the friendly service to back the bow up, this thread would be worse that the Bowtech General threads. :darkbeer:


I also have a dreamcatcher, it's a great bow.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

SandSquid said:


> I really don't care about color, since they are supposed to be program bows for my youth group.


If you need bows for a program for your *youth* group, you might want to take into consideration that the lowest listed poundage the Jaguar comes in is 45#...


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

alanraw said:


> If you need bows for a program for your *youth* group, you might want to take into consideration that the lowest listed poundage the Jaguar comes in is 45#...



The Jaguar was _originally listed_ as 35-45-55 the dealer catalog, and can be ordered as 30# which would have been perfect, and _what I ordered_ two of... The problem (for me at least) was waiting 4 months for some 30# limbs to come through the mfg. process. I gave up waiting and opted to take 35#, but got shipped 40# limbs.

Even with only a 22" draw length a kid trying to pull a 45# bow.. No, that is just not a good thing. I want them concentrate on form and shot process and having fun, not struggling to pull and anchor 30-35#. that is just irresponsible of me as a Coach to do.


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## Princess Sonja Martin (Feb 8, 2006)

SandSquid said:


> The Jaguar was _originally listed_ as 35-45-55 the dealer catalog, and can be ordered as 30# which would have been perfect, and _what I ordered_ two of... The problem (for me at least) was waiting 4 months for some 30# limbs to come through the mfg. process. I gave up waiting and opted to take 35#, but got shipped 40# limbs.
> 
> Even with only a 22" draw length a kid trying to pull a 45# bow.. No, that is just not a good thing. I want them concentrate on form and shot process and having fun, not struggling to pull and anchor 30-35#. that is just irresponsible of me as a Coach to do.


SandSquid,
How long have you had the Jags? Where did you get buy the Jags? And did you contact anyone to let them know that you received the wrong size?
I will do anything I can to help. If you want you can PM me


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Sonja said:


> I will do anything I can to help. If you want you can PM me


This saga has been playing out since Feb./Mar. You can read all the details which were posted as it occurred, in this thread. But I will take the time to summarize it and PM you with it all nice and tidy.

I hope you can work some magic that nobody else at Martin has been able to do in the past 4 months, which is to have some properly machined Jaguar risers and adequately finished 30# limbs appear on our doorstep.


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## Mark Land (Dec 4, 2003)

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but you do realize that drawing a 45# recurve to only 22in of draw would effectively only be about 27# or so of draw weight, still might be a little heavy but not too bad for most kids. Most trad bows normally lose/gain about 3# per in of draw above or below the listed draw weight at 28in. Mark


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Mark Land said:


> Not trying to be a smart aleck, but you do realize that drawing a 45# recurve to only 22in of draw would effectively only be about 27# or so of draw weight


Yes I know that, I figure 2 to 3 # per inch



> still might be a little heavy but not too bad for most kids.


Most of these kids are "inner city at risk youths" that play video games and skip school, and aspire to be nothing more than gangsta' thugs, & welfare momma's. 
I'm trying to show them a way to earn a little self esteem. Handing them a bow they have to struggle to pull back is not a good way to start. 

In hindsight, it is apparent I would have been much better served, had I invested my Church's money in (2) 20# Genesis bows instead of Martin Jaguars. But I really wanted them to learn simplicity at first. "Just a stick and a string". My price through NADA for the Genesis bow is lower than the Jaguar even!

As I had to explain to the Church Council two weeks ago, I screwed up. I let my blind faith in brand loyalty cloud my judgment. As much as I would like to blame Martin for all for this, it was still my decision where to invest our funds for this years program. I chose poorly, and placed my bets on a brand-new totally unproven product, sight unseen, based solely on Brand name, and it has come back to bit me in the behind, big-time.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

SandSquid said:


> Most of these kids are "inner city at risk youths" that play video games and skip school, and aspire to be nothing more than gangsta' thugs, & welfare momma's.
> I'm trying to show them a way to earn a little self esteem. Handing them a bow they have to struggle to pull back is not a good way to start.
> 
> In hindsight, it is apparent I would have been much better served, had I invested my Church's money in (2) 20# Genesis bows instead of Martin Jaguars. But I really wanted them to learn simplicity at first. "Just a stick and a string". My price through NADA for the Genesis bow is lower than the Jaguar even!
> ...


There are lots of relatively inexpensive, size and poundage appropriate beginners' recurves that can be gotten on eBay and other places, and if you look around, a number of sellers offer discounts for multiple purchases for youth groups. Some well-known, inexpensive youth recurves include the PSE Buckeye, Internature Bullseye, and a few models offered by Ragim...


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

alanraw said:


> There are lots of relatively inexpensive, size and poundage appropriate beginners' recurves that can be gotten on eBay and other places, and if you look around, a number of sellers offer discounts for multiple purchases for youth groups. Some well-known, inexpensive youth recurves include the PSE Buckeye, Internature Bullseye, and a few models offered by Ragim...


Indeed, I have some Internature "Bullseye" and KAP "Suprise" and a Ragim ??? bow in our inventory at some _really low_ poundages (15-20#). I was hoping for something just a tad bit better quality and _a bit _higher draw weight. 

Also I wanted somethign that will stand up the abuses a bit better, _and can have a "full containment" arrow rest mounted to them_. This is a VERY important requirements to me.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*Resolution!*

While I was on vacation I had been working on this issue.

I am happy to report that someone from Martin has gone completely out of their way to rustle up 2 sets of 30# limbs so kiddies in my youth group will have more appropriate draw weight and indicated they would be delivered in time for our Summer Archery/Bible Camp. 

Perhaps it was nothing more than getting up from their desk, taking a walk, and pulling them out of clearly labeled parts bin, or it could have taken them many hours of searching through piles of limbs to find them. I know not which is the case, but somehow I think it was the latter.

So as not to cause them to become inundated with future requests to pull off additional small miracles which are "clearly out of their swim lane" I will withhold their identity, but I try wish to thank them sincerely, and publicly. 

I'll still be on my own as far as the level of finish sanding on the limbs, to get them _to my standards_. It was conveyed to me that while they are using a little bit thinker finish, the sides of the limbs will always be "a little course". Luckily I'm a decent woodworker and have no problem with finish sanding them to about 440 and spraying them w/ nitrocellulose lacquer. I did this on one set of the 40# limbs and they are smooth as the proverbial "Baby's Behind", no chance of wood or carbon splinters, and really look fantastic.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

That's goood news ! Glad to hear it's finally comin' together for you.

Still up for a swap of riser (Black for Camo)? I'm fine with being first to ship too. Lemme know.

Charles Greene
Seattle, WA


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## pequa1 (Jun 14, 2009)

Bought my Jaguar TD from Sportsmans Guide. Wanted to get back into archery without spending a lot, feeling that at worst this bow would become a spare, or that, God Forbid, I'd eventually go compound, lol. When it came and I had trouble getting the cylindrical limb nuts into the riser, my friend, an ardent and very good archer and state DEC master instructor, was incredulous, feeling that the nuts should have been installed at the factory. Whatever, after some bolt loosener and a gentle banging away with a small and light hammer on a piece of wooden dowel, the nuts finally were in position to accept the bolts. Have shot it twice since and am satisfied. (I had not shot a bow more than twice in the last forty years, but shot a lot as a teen in the 60s.) With good aluminum arrows I am hitting a target a little larger than a softball at 20 yards, providing I do my part. With all my 40 year old wooden arrows I am still managing to hit a garbage can lid size every time, regardless if I screw up. I shot with three experienced archers the first time, and did not notice the bow being noisy. My limbs were not baby ass smooth, but close. SG advertised it as a 40 lb. I believe I will order 50 or 55 lb. limbs eventually for hunting. I know I need to get more arrows. Where should I look for heavier limbs ?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

pequa1 said:


> I believe I will order 50 or 55 lb. limbs eventually for hunting. Where should I look for heavier limbs ?


A few months ago I inquired about purchasing just the limbs alone. I'm sorry I can’t remember exactly what they were, but I do recall that there was not much difference between getting the limbs alone and buying an entire bow.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

SandSquid said:


> While I was on vacation I had been working on this issue.
> 
> I am happy to report that someone from Martin has gone completely out of their way to rustle up 2 sets of 30# limbs so kiddies in my youth group will have more appropriate draw weight and indicated they would be delivered in time for our Summer Archery/Bible Camp.
> 
> ...



I've had people from the Martin factory in Walla Walla pull off a few "small miracles" for _me_ on a number of occasions, including making me a pair of limbs last year (2008) for my Martin Revelation...a model that went out of production back in 2005:mg: Usually a phone conversation with Joel at the Walla Walla plant proves very helpful; in more extreme circumstances, a chat with the great Larry Hatfield himself can, at times, work wonders. And these "small miracles" you mentioned are probably one of the reasons why guys like me are brand loyal when it comes to Martin products. Hats off to you, Martin Archery!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*Off the Shelf?*



mossanimal said:


> Do you plan to shoot off the shelf or with the rest?



Anybody get it to work?

I've been doing some experimenting with shooting off the shelf, and it's just not happening, at least for me. The issue is that the center-shot position is about 3/8"-1/2" away from the inside face of the riser due to the "cut way past center" nature of the bow. I tried installing a plunger but the hole and thus the button was too high off the shelf. I was able to "stack up" several layers of moleskin to push the arrow out. But that just looked gaudy. I just can’t see how you can shoot this bow with anything other than an elevated rest. You can’t even use one of the stick-on Hoyt Pro Rest type rests.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SandSquid said:


> Anybody get it to work?
> 
> I've been doing some experimenting with shooting off the shelf, and it's just not happening, at least for me. The issue is that the center-shot position is about 3/8"-1/2" away from the inside face of the riser due to the "cut way past center" nature of the bow. I tried installing a plunger but the hole and thus the button was too high off the shelf. I was able to "stack up" several layers of moleskin to push the arrow out. But that just looked gaudy. I just can’t see how you can shoot this bow with anything other than an elevated rest. You can’t even use one of the stick-on Hoyt Pro Rest type rests.


 I haven't shot it yet, but I'm almost finished with the build out with leather... and hey... this bow looks a little tacky anyway... a riser off center, afterthought limbs... etc etc.... but I'm about to change my idear some and build it out with a block of wood maybe covered in leather or moleskin....

Aloha.... Tom :beer:


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## pequa1 (Jun 14, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> A few months ago I inquired about purchasing just the limbs alone. I'm sorry I can’t remember exactly what they were, but I do recall that there was not much difference between getting the limbs alone and buying an entire bow.


Thats what I was thinking, but hoping against it.
Does anyone know what other companies would offer limbs that would also fit this bow ?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> this bow looks a little tacky anyway... a riser off center, afterthought limbs... etc etc....



Hey I happen to really dig the "tacky" riser. BUT to my defense I'm a Compound shooter at heart. before last year the only other type of bow I shot was a 50# Osage Selfbow I made in 1984 and continue to shoot to this day. It looks right at home hanging next to the 11 _other_ Martin bows on our living room wall.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SandSquid said:


> Hey I happen to really dig the "tacky" riser. BUT to my defense I'm a Compound shooter at heart. before last year the only other type of bow I shot was a 50# Osage Selfbow I made in 1984 and continue to shoot to this day. It looks right at home hanging next to the 11 _other_ Martin bows on our living room wall.


Well I've probably had 11 martins, but a bunch of them went to the woodpile and two have been sold, and I've 4 left..... Martin has been the bow of choice for me over the years in spite of the mishaps i've had. The longbows, with just one exception, and that was from a "dryfire" when a carbon arrow blew up upon release...., have been solid. My viper is a dream to shoot and compares well next to my 21st Century Nova... and then this....  I've a cat so ugly it's cute too...

I've decided to run with the wood block for the riser. I'm conflicted now whether to use a whole block or just a strip. Either will work, but just the strip would work too and give better overall clearence and be a little lighter. What do you think of that as an idear??

Aloha... Tom  :beer:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I thought this might be the best place to put this: I tried a martin springy rest on my jag today. I like it alot. It's not a hunting rest but is just what this riser was designed for. 

On another note: I built a continous string jig and made a string for it today. I made it 56 inches 14 strands and it's 7 3/4 inch brace height with only a few twists.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Eldermike said:


> I thought this might be the best place to put this: I tried a martin springy rest on my jag today. I like it alot. It's not a hunting rest but is just what this riser was designed for.
> 
> On another note: I built a continous string jig and made a string for it today. I made it 56 inches 14 strands and it's 7 3/4 inch brace height with only a few twists.


Thank you for the tidbits Eldermike. I just may have to make myself one (one of these days). I've got lots of B-50 on hand.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Springy rest


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

woodsy yarn puff balls. Wrap yarn around three fingers 10 times, cut and serve laying flat on the string. Cut the loops on both ends and shoot and you have perfect wool puff balls. Very quiet.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

'Das one fine lookin' bow you got there, yer Elderness.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*How many does it take to make a "collection"?*

Do I have the largest privately owned collection of 2009 Jaguar T/D Recurve bows?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Eldermike, 
Your Camo looks like a different pattern than the two I have..
Do you have the Next Camo or something different?


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Yer Squidness... you have me beat by ONE Jaguar.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

SandSquid... UPS tracking tells me your box has arrived to your front door... didja git it?


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Eldermike,
> Your Camo looks like a different pattern than the two I have..
> Do you have the Next Camo or something different?


I just saw this, sorry............

I think it's Next Camo, must be the light in the picture.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Psst... SandSquid....*



Ratdog68 said:


> SandSquid... UPS tracking tells me your box has arrived to your front door... didja git it?


Got Box?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

on it's way back tomorrow.. w/ a few "extra's" in there.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> on it's way back tomorrow.. w/ a few "extra's" in there.


Hey... "extras" weren't part of the deal ! LOL Thank you though... just wanted to confirm that you'd received it.


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## Hiracer (Jul 15, 2009)

I'm now thinking of ordering a couple of Jaguars despite the problems reported.

Are my eyes deceiving me? From the pictures it appears that the riser is shorter than some, but the limbs are longer. This might explain why it pull so sweet (reputedly). Looks to me like the limbs are disproportionately long, which I like.

Comments?


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## warped Arrow (Sep 20, 2005)

Eldermike said:


> It's not a hunting rest but is just what this riser was designed for.


Why isnt the springy rest a hunting rest? Its what I have on my hunting bow and works great. nice and simple.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Hiracer said:


> I'm now thinking of ordering a couple of Jaguars despite the problems reported.
> 
> Are my eyes deceiving me? From the pictures it appears that the riser is shorter than some, but the limbs are longer. This might explain why it pull so sweet (reputedly). Looks to me like the limbs are disproportionately long, which I like.
> 
> Comments?


The limbs are the exact same length (and all proportions for that matter) as my KAP, Ragim Greatree, etc. limbs and they interchange rather nicely.

The riser is about 2" shorter, and every limb I put on it have made about 2-3# heavier pull than they did on their original riser. 

I am very happy with ours, as program bows for my youth group as a beater for takign afield and stump shooting and small game hunting. 
My ONLY regret...just wish there was a Left Hand version.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

warped Arrow said:


> Why isnt the springy rest a hunting rest? Its what I have on my hunting bow and works great. nice and simple.


I have changed my mind about this, I thought the sound would be to much. However, with the right arrow it's fine. It's what I am going to hunt with. I just ordered another one for a another bow. Simple and accurate, I agree.


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## Rustam Bana (Sep 21, 2008)

Are there any other online stores I can buy this spring rest from other than Martin's website?

Thanks.

Rustam


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I just ordered one from lancasterarchery.com.


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## Rustam Bana (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks, Eldermike.


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## D2bows (Feb 2, 2007)

I think for the money it is a great bow ($130) heck a Bear green fiberglass stick bow is $49.00. As for people starting out with a high end bow I have rarely ever seen that. This bow lets me get some one into a well made, good shooting take down bow that they could hunt with or just shoot in the yard. The shop I work at just got them in and in 1 week I have set up and sold 3 and have taken orders for 2 of the black on black models. I am going to pick one up for my self once the demand slows down a bit. I do own another martin bow it is a Hatfield TD, are they the same quality bow? No nor do they cost the same, so I dont' expect a 20 coat ultra clear, flat, hand sanded finish on the limbs.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Ratdog68 said:


> Hey... "extras" weren't part of the deal !


quichyer*****in'!!!


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

D2bows said:


> I think for the money it is a great bow ($130) heck a Bear green fiberglass stick bow is $49.00. As for people starting out with a high end bow I have rarely ever seen that. This bow lets me get some one into a well made, good shooting take down bow that they could hunt with or just shoot in the yard. The shop I work at just got them in and in 1 week I have set up and sold 3 and have taken orders for 2 of the black on black models. I am going to pick one up for my self once the demand slows down a bit. I do own another martin bow it is a Hatfield TD, are they the same quality bow? No nor do they cost the same, so I dont' expect a 20 coat ultra clear, flat, hand sanded finish on the limbs.



They are great shooting bows. Smooth draw to my draw length and just as much a shooter as any bow I own, even ones costing 7 or 8 times more. I am going to buy a black one to go with my camo one. I hope they don't come out with a green or a blue or a red, because that will seriously cut into my arrow money.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> quichyer*****in'!!!


LOL Yessir.


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## Hiracer (Jul 15, 2009)

Well shoot. The price to just plain too attractive. 

I just ordered three in black. One for me and each kid.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*A few action pics*

Some of the kids from my youth group tonight.... Shooting out new Jaguars.




















I am so delighted in them.. I hoped they would be decent "Program Bows" to get kids shooting, on par with Ragin and KAP, but they have proved to be tough as nails and they really are so much more for the $$$


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## vlcnrydr (Mar 29, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Some of the kids from my youth group tonight....


It's nice to see in a world going down the crapper small pockets of good. Kudos to you and the Mrs. for your work with these kids!

:clap::clap::clap: :thumb:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Sandsquid,

Great work with those kids. I am an elder in my home church (hense the name). We are looking at archery as a program for our youth, most likely starting next spring. Looked at centershot, it's looks good, but, (there is always one of those).....it's not traditional. I noticed you had your kids make self bows, I am intrested in that, would you do it again? I would expect to have a very large group so planning will be very important.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Eldermike said:


> Sandsquid,
> 
> Great work with those kids. I am an elder in my home church (hense the name). We are looking at archery as a program for our youth, most likely starting next spring. Looked at centershot, it's looks good, but, (there is always one of those).....it's not traditional. I noticed you had your kids make self bows, I am intrested in that, would you do it again? I would expect to have a very large group so planning will be very important.


I'm not too hung up on the "traditional" vice "compound" aspect of it... I let the kids decide what they are most comfortable shooting. 
IMO *the mot important thing is they have fun and want to come back*. 


The stickbows were a great project for the more advanced kids.
we got U Finish - Solid Hickory Youth 60" and 65" (for taller kids) longbow kits from Rudderbows Archery They have lots of great product and even better customer service.

PM sent on the religious aspect fo the program...


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## spearsmtarcher (May 25, 2008)

a friend just got one for his son. he said the limbs arent marked. how can you tell which limb is top and which is bottom?


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

Yup... Jim and his wife Sherry at Rudderbows are great folks. Done business with him a couple of times. Always a pleasure.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

spearsmtarcher said:


> a friend just got one for his son. he said the limbs arent marked. how can you tell which limb is top and which is bottom?


Straight from the mouth of Martin: 
"It does not matter one bit, but if you are the "Mr. Monk Type" you can put the "A" limb on top and "_*B*_" on the _*B*_ottom


BTW in the same conversation I was told the limbs are 100% Fast Flight Compatible, so use whatever string material you want on them, it will be just fine.


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## Rustam Bana (Sep 21, 2008)

Spearsmtarcher: The side of the limbs, rather than the belly, will have alphanumeric markings such as the one in the picture. Have your friend use the limb marked 'A' as the top limb.


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