# Problems with Metropolis, Il ASA Shoot



## knobby (Mar 4, 2003)

I have never shot an asa, but i have been told by several that this pacing off the yardage is more common than we think, like i said i have never been to an asa event but would love to go, crazy what guys will do to win a few bucks isnt it


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## geneinidaho (Feb 9, 2004)

Me not knowign any better would have let my steam boat mouth over run my row boat arse!


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Not in my group he would not be pacing targets.......I would have called him on it in a heartbeat.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Sdoss*

Go find the rules for ASA and present them here! I cant find anything about talking to anyone while shooting. If you think Im cheating call the offficial and lets argue the point. 

My buddy does know how to range yardage. He hit 6 in a row across the water on second day. Hard to walk and step on water.

He also won ASA Pa pro am by more than 10 points over the next shooter, I was told it couldnt have been stepped off. He also won two places in the simms. Maybe he cheated there but he shot it while competing with me and othe members here.

Next time just call the range official and dont call this stuff after the shoot. He didnt call or score his arrows. Two others in the group did!

If you ever want to wager judging distance against him, I want a bet on him. He is very good at it. He has his own range at his house and judges everday. 

He didnt scoe his arrow the other guys in the group did. How can he be called cheating on that?


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

It may not be cheating in the book, but it's dishonorable as Hell. I have on numerous occations corrected the value on a scored arrow of my own because the scorer was wrong. My scorers in Vegas tried to give me a 10 when it was clearly a 9. I showed where it would not touch the line (the line was missing) and they changed the score to a 9. I then replaced my target face so it would not happen again. I, and thousands of archers like me, would never take a point they don't deserve. This wasn't a line call, this was an arrow touching the target backwards. Chickensh*t in my book.

Frankly, Dan, it's disusting that you would defend your "friend" for taking a five for a backward arrow touching the animal. Regardless if the other guys scored it. Yes Sdoss, this is common in 3D for the simple reason that people like Dan defend it and try to sweep it under the rug with the lame excuse that "He didnt scoe his arrow the other guys in the group did. How can he be called cheating on that?"


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## Bert2 (Feb 16, 2003)

In those ASA shoots it's nearly impossible to ignore the position of the next target relative to the one you just shot; and it's also very easy to pace the distance at least approximately; and as far as I can see there is nothing in the rules against it. I think a lot of people do this, but most probably are not so blatant about it as to stop adjacent to the next target, look over at it, then pace back to the stake.

BUT -- it's a really bad idea, whether it's cheating or not! I let myself get fooled by this really bad once and shot right under the target because I thought I knew how far it was even though it looked much farther from the stake. Now I force myself to ignore the next target and strictly judge each one on its own from the stake.

So -- this can work against the shooter as much as for him, just like bright nocks on the shooter before you's arrows -- don't worry about it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*AK Doug*

The rules say all guys in the group agree. Appartly that was the case.

I have seen this on the pro level as well. 

The rules say arrow stuck in target. I know for a fact it has happen on pro level, arrow glanced off the ground and in target, scored arrow. Change the ruling, many here hit limbs and stick targets all the time, same thing.

I could care less what you think my honor. ASA sets the rules and we play by them. I tell it just like it happened. The guys in his group should have made the call at the target and not come whining here after the fact. My buddy is in hs first year of shooting and shooting well, he honestly thought it was a zero. He would have taken any score they called. Only because he shot his butt after that shot to make a comeback is anyone having something to say.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Your so full of yourself*



AKDoug said:


> It may not be cheating in the book, but it's dishonorable as Hell. I have on numerous occations corrected the value on a scored arrow of my own because the scorer was wrong. My scorers in Vegas tried to give me a 10 when it was clearly a 9. I showed where it would not touch the line (the line was missing) and they changed the score to a 9. I then replaced my target face so it would not happen again. I, and thousands of archers like me, would never take a point they don't deserve. This wasn't a line call, this was an arrow touching the target backwards. Chickensh*t in my book.
> 
> Frankly, Dan, it's disusting that you would defend your "friend" for taking a five for a backward arrow touching the animal. Regardless if the other guys scored it. Yes Sdoss, this is common in 3D for the simple reason that people like Dan defend it and try to sweep it under the rug with the lame excuse that "He didnt scoe his arrow the other guys in the group did. How can he be called cheating on that?"


Like you never have had scorer allow an arrow you thought was not in. I have seen arrows called on national level that I dissagreed with many time be called in. No one is cheating, the scorer called the arrow just like the rules say. Go read the rules before talking about honor and fairness. Yeah AK Doug everyone in 3d is cheating and they all do this to win. You have us all figured out. Give me a break, be honest with yourself.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*AK Doug*

Just so you get this right. My shooting partner asked two ASA pros after the shoot that day if that was the right rulling and they gave him a correct ruling. Yes it is a scorable arrow. Now this is two of the top pros in ASA.

No one cheated. If anyone in the group dissgreed they should have called the range official. Thats the rules. Maybe we should change them because you feel there not what you agree with.

I could tell several arrows like this that are scored in ASA on all levels. Not sure what 3d you shoot but we do know the rules here. I didnt see the arrow but the guys in his group told me it was stuck in the target, scorable arrow. I dont make the rules as I go, AK Doug appartly you do!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Appartly*



AKDoug said:


> It may not be cheating in the book, but it's dishonorable as Hell. I have on numerous occations corrected the value on a scored arrow of my own because the scorer was wrong. My scorers in Vegas tried to give me a 10 when it was clearly a 9. I showed where it would not touch the line (the line was missing) and they changed the score to a 9. I then replaced my target face so it would not happen again. I, and thousands of archers like me, would never take a point they don't deserve. This wasn't a line call, this was an arrow touching the target backwards. Chickensh*t in my book.
> 
> Frankly, Dan, it's disusting that you would defend your "friend" for taking a five for a backward arrow touching the animal. Regardless if the other guys scored it. Yes Sdoss, this is common in 3D for the simple reason that people like Dan defend it and try to sweep it under the rug with the lame excuse that "He didnt scoe his arrow the other guys in the group did. How can he be called cheating on that?"


You feel you always right and a scorer cant make a call. Give me a break. This is comman to do this all the time Sdoss, guys like Dan just cheat period to win. Give me a break, what a lame answer. I shouldnt have to listen to your garbage Ak Doug, I know the rules and many others do also and they agreed with my partner.


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## canam (Apr 2, 2003)

*Very Interesting Thread!*

This thread is more interesting than the one I posted in the General Forum because I was referring to a woman who did that.

Sdoss at any time you can question any ruling. I'm not referring to the ruling about the arrow but about stepping off targets. The ASA allows us to question rules violations. curs1 and I personally questioned Dee Falks about this rule because of it coming up on the range as a question and we were curious. Dee was ready to pull out the form for a protest because he said it is ILLEGAL but we said we were just wondering.

Last year I made a gang adjustment on my pins. Somebody accused me of cheating (this wasn't in the rules) and I did a formal inquiry that went before the rules' committee. It is now written into the rules because of this; however, another incident happened earlier this year in my class and I was pulling out my $50 because what happened was wrong and I wanted a complaint form. I ended up in a meeting with Mike, Dee and Skip and we got it somewhat resolved. I got to keep my $50. The point that I am making is that if you see something that you feel is wrong, contact your range official and if it isn't handled, there are avenues for you to take. Please don't let somebody cheating put a damper on your ASA fun because if we all work together, then these people will be weeded out. Stepping off the next target is WRONG! 

DB- since you keep throwing out that it is not in the rules, I'll personally contact Mike Terrell today and start working on it for next year so you can not only know it is wrong, you can read it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Canam*

Make the rules. Ill go by them or not attend.

If you feel someone is cheating call the range official. Im not bashfull making a call at the stake. Part of the game. I never call my arrow or even question the call by anyone in my group. 


Im curious how you are going to know if anyone is walking and counting there steps. This will be interesting to see how you prove it. Maybe you can read someones mind.


Not sure which rule your talking about here. Arrow in the target or counting your steps back!

But what amazes me is how you can accuse someone of cheating when he didnt even call the arrow score. Sdoss if you felt it was the wrong call, you should have called it right there. Not now after the fact. My buddy would have taken whatever score you guys called and never said a word.

Now if your going to Terrell. Ask them to make all ranges with staggered stakes and then promblem solved. Good archers know the distance after the shot and dont need to walk the targets off. Hard to not see a stake only ten yrds to the side. Been disscussed many times, were not blind.


Just remember those guys calling the arrow in were competing with my partner, why if they thought it was not a score would they called it in, did everyone in that group cheat for him. There reasons we call it competing and others score your arrows.

Now if your calling someone a cheater. Get the rule out and show it to me.
Thats for AK Doug and dont make them up as we go along.


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## bowhunter357 (Jul 23, 2004)

Sdoss,
I'm a little confused, you stated the arrow bounced back and rested against the leg of the animal. Others here make is sound like the arrow skipped off the ground and then stuck in the animal, which is it? The reason I ask is in my interpretation of the rules there is a huge difference. The rules clearly state the arrow must be stuck in the animal not just touching. But I do agree with Daniel and some of the others, ASA pushes for your group to resolve the issues, if you can't, that's what the officals are there for, just get one next time. It shouldn't upset anyone to bring an offical over to make the call, disagreements are bound to happen.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Thank You*



bowhunter357 said:


> Sdoss,
> I'm a little confused, you stated the arrow bounced back and rested against the leg of the animal. Others here make is sound like the arrow skipped off the ground and then stuck in the animal, which is it? The reason I ask is in my interpretation of the rules there is a huge difference. The rules clearly state the arrow must be stuck in the animal not just touching. But I do agree with Daniel and some of the others, ASA pushes for your group to resolve the issues, if you can't, that's what the officals are there for, just get one next time. It shouldn't upset anyone to bring an offical over to make the call, disagreements are bound to happen.



Thats all I am trying to say. If theres every a doubt call a range official and make the call. Sdoss says it was touching. Others in the group said the arrow was sticking in the target, belly is what I was told. I have my doubts any competiors would allow a arrow laying on a target. My buddy or not, I would have ruled it an un scorable arrow if that was the case. Im there to compete fairly and will not give anyone a score, I dont think is fair, regardless of friend or not. I dont ask anyone to give me anything either. ASA does ask the groups to try and solve the scores at the stake. Whos at fault, the guys that called it a scorable arrow, not hardly, thay made the call according to what they thought was right. Been shooting this sport many years and I feel most archers in 3d are fair and make the right call. Never have a ever thought about filing a grivance. Never seen the reason too. Ill bet 99% of archer here or more have never filed any complaint or paid $50.00 for a ruling. MAKE THE CALL!


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## canam (Apr 2, 2003)

*This is getting old now*

DB I could care less about the arrow bouncing or whatever it did and I don't know why you keep referring to your buddy or you scoring your own arrow when you're addressing me. Scoring targets has nothing to do with stepping them off! I never questioned your arrow calling or anybody else's.

I know of somebody else who went to a target, scored it, "stepped off the next target" came back and set his site before moving to the next one. What does that sound like to you? I can assure you that if I had been the one on the stake with the guy, this thread would be much different now.

Incidentally, I put the e-mail in to Mike and Dee just now and hopefully, the whole thing will be in black and white for people who can't interpret or use common sense when it comes to rules.

Of course you see the target in the next lane. Our group sometimes looks at the next target and says "oh no, the dreaded bedded" or "that dang Leopard" and then we turn and walk back to the stake without paying it any attention other than to see what is next.

By the way DB I am in the 1% because I ALWAYS have an extra $50 in case I have to put up or shut-up.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Canam*

The reason your the one percent is because most couldnt say whether I guy is counting his steps. I know I cant and you cant either.

File your grivance and take your chances. You will lose if everyone in the groups doesnt agree. Four or five guys should be able to warn a guy one time and then take action if they fill someone is cheating.

In this case the guys made the call, just like ASA says to do. Good luck getting the rules in writting. Been tried many times and I agree. I have been shooting 20 yrs and didnt know I couldnt talk to a shooter in the group in front of me. Show me the rules.


Most of us are out here shooting and enjoying the sport of archery and not trying to change the system.

Lets get one thing right. My buddy is in his first year at ASA, just like Sdoss and he didnt make the call because he didnt know what the correct call was. He did ask two asa pros and they confirmed the correct call was made.
Guys in his group made the call and I dont think anyone of them was trying to cheat.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I have anttended three ASA shoots in the last 2 years, The first one I shot open C, I had a top shooter in my group, he paced off most every target, Like what was described, he got even with the next one and paced it off on the way back.

I went to two this year, shot in Seniors, I had a top shooter in my group the first one, He paced off every target also. the second shoot one shooter was doing well and he too paced off every target. Until he blew up then he didn't bother anymore.

Matter of fact I haven't been to an ASA shoot where I haven't seen target paceing going on.. I seen it in my group, group ahead and the group behind. 

Seems to be the norm for out there..


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Pacing is technically illegal, but almost impossible to enforce. I did call a fellow shooter on it in Tennessee as it was clear what he was doing. He was getting even with the next target and pacing back to the next stake. I called him, he stopped, at least he stopped making it obvious. 

Personally, I also feel the ASA needs to stagger the stakes/courses to prevent it altogether.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I suppose it would require more land and more work to elimate it. You know about the land and work thing :teeth:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Staggering targets*

Takes no more effort or land and is something ASA can do solve this.

If someone wants to cheat. They often do and its hard to stop and prove.

I have had several pros say they step the target off after the shot. Just very hard to say whether its being done or not.


For me the group with shooter in question should do the right thing and give the guy a warning first and then call an official if it continues. Thats what happens in the pro ranks from what every archer tells me.


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## canam (Apr 2, 2003)

*Quote from Mike Tyrell*

I sent an e-mail to Mike Tyrell, owner of ASA and here is my response from him. I guess there is a rule already but some folks can't interpret it properly. For those who can't it will be in black and white..... hats off to Mike for this one!

"This is an excellent suggestion. I can't believe we haven't specifically
addressed this in the rules. Although Shooting Rule "Q" rule specifically
says "All distances will be judged by the naked eye." And also goes on to
prohibit the use of body parts (which would mean that stepping off is
illegal and prohibited) it doesn't specifically address walking off targets
and it needs to be rewritten. We will definitely remedy this in the 2006
rules revisions. 

In addition, we will address this with the Competition Committee to clarify
and should they agree that "stepping off" is a violation of the rule as it
is currently written and is subject to disqualification if reported. This
interpretation will be announced at the Classic Safety Meeting and would
allow someone to protest the individual in question."


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## Target Tony (Mar 3, 2003)

when i shot the ASA Meytropolis shoot 2 years ago i shot in the Bow Novice class...we did pace off distances after we shot to see if we were right.. which is pretty normal.. we also had a couple of guys walk in front of us back from the stake so the next group couldnt see our steps... this is pretty normal for 3d shooters to confirm the range we just shot..

however it was brought to my attention by one guy in our group that if you look over at the next target you can kind of figure out how far it is.. i said isnt that against the rules ? and the responce i got is well just dont look like your doing it ..  

an easy way to fix this is make them go every other stake when they shoot..so you shoot 1 , 3 , 5 , 7 , 9 and so on.. i know it would add to some confusion but its a good fix i think...

Shoot Strong
Tony


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*All they need to do!*



canam said:


> I sent an e-mail to Mike Tyrell, owner of ASA and here is my response from him. I guess there is a rule already but some folks can't interpret it properly. For those who can't it will be in black and white..... hats off to Mike for this one!
> 
> "This is an excellent suggestion. I can't believe we haven't specifically
> addressed this in the rules. Although Shooting Rule "Q" rule specifically
> ...


Is stagger the targets. Now if you or Mike think you can stop someone from counting there footsteps back in there mind. Good Luck! :thumbs_up 
I only think it hurts an archer when he does it at times. But its your right to file any time you want. :thumbs_up


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Actually, it is not that hard to stagger stakes.

For example, instead of walking through the G range to get to the H range, start the course with G1, then H1, then G2, then H2, the G3, then H3, etc.......that way the targets to either side of yours are a different course. It takes the same amount of land, and the same amount of time to set them up. It just makes the lanes longer from 1 - 10.


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## John Sullivan (Jun 14, 2005)

Pacing off targets you just shot is normal...or was normal when I use to shoot 3-d several years ago. You put 4 archers in a group and more than likely you will come up with 4 different yardages shot on the target. I was in a shoot off one time (first time ever in a shoot off and ever to place in a tournament) I shot first and nailed the orange spot...I shot it for 43 yards, the other archer shot about an inch to the right of the orange spot and he shot it for 37 yards....6 yards difference...same relative result. Correct stepped off yardage was 43, however his eye saw it as 37 and maybe on his home range it was slightly shorter than his 40 yd butt. All this being said there is nothing wrong at all with stepping off a target you just shot. If you are an honest archer you shouldn't be trying to figure out how far the next target is based on what you just shot. Have I done it??? Yes, before I grew up and knew better. Am I proud to have done it??? NO. Will I do it again??? NO. I shot an ASA shoot several years ago in Gainesville Fl. There was a guy who was a friend of an archer in the group behind us. After we left to go score the target he would casually stroll up to our bows and see what our sights were set on. Stroll back (un-noticed he thought) and tell his friend what we shot it for. We caught on and all agreed after we shot we would take 5 yards off what we shot it for and re-set our sights. One fella in the group behind us shot 2 X's and ruined an arrow in the re-bar in the leg of a deer. We continued to change our yardages, but I think he caught on to us. We couldn't prove anything, so we couldn't really do anything about it other than what we did. 25 points down in 3 targets will put you out of the running anyway so we accomplished our goal.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

> I listed early last week about scoring when the guy shooting with me missed a target, but the arrow bounced back and rested against the animals leg and he recieved a 5. I admit i didn't know the rule, but some others in the group acdted as if they did. This guy finished in the money and will knock some others lower in the money than they should have.


Dan. Your defense is still weak. This is a question about an arrow that passed the target, bounced back and stuck in the animal nock first. That arrow MISSED the target first, then came back. There is no question in my mind that that is a zero. There is no question in my mind, also, that I would not have signed my score card with a 5 for that target REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE REST OF THE GROUP SAID!! I would have taken a zero. PERIOD!!

I have taken 10's instead of 12's numerous times to get things moving along at tournaments. If I believe my arrow is out I will call it so if they are having trouble scoring it. Sportsmanship, plain and simple.

Dan, your blind loyalty to 3D is amusing at times.


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## Still Trying (Mar 5, 2005)

*No 3D for me.*

I have never shot one of these 3D tournaments and after reading this entire thread I am convinced I have no desire to start now. I have better things to do with my time than participate in events where cheating is the norm and you need to bring money to file complaints about it. :thumbs_do


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## Celtbow (Jan 20, 2003)

Still Trying said:


> I have never shot one of these 3D tournaments and after reading this entire thread I am convinced I have no desire to start now. I have better things to do with my time than participate in events where cheating is the norm and you need to bring money to file complaints about it. :thumbs_do



Believe I'll be keepin' me money in my pocket too. Way to promote the sport DB! Not what I'd come to expect from you. :sad:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

> I have had several pros say they step the target off after the shot. Just very hard to say whether its being done or not.


Well what I saw was the guy stepped behind the target we just shot got straight across from the next target and stated pacing and counting all the way back to our bows.

One would have to be completely blind, and pretty dumb, to not know what he was doing. 

Like I said target paceing seems to be the norm at those events.. 
at least that's what I've seen.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Your questioning me is weak and uncalled*



AKDoug said:


> Dan. Your defense is still weak. This is a question about an arrow that passed the target, bounced back and stuck in the animal nock first. That arrow MISSED the target first, then came back. There is no question in my mind that that is a zero. There is no question in my mind, also, that I would not have signed my score card with a 5 for that target REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE REST OF THE GROUP SAID!! I would have taken a zero. PERIOD!!
> 
> I have taken 10's instead of 12's numerous times to get things moving along at tournaments. If I believe my arrow is out I will call it so if they are having trouble scoring it. Sportsmanship, plain and simple.
> 
> Dan, your blind loyalty to 3D is amusing at times.


Your ability to understand the rules is very weak. I dont think for a minute you question ever call shooters make on your arrows. You play the game how you want and Ill play it like I have for many years with many friends and archers that know me and how I play the game. Go ask Pridgen what my standards are. I have never question an arrow call. I play many fields of archery and play them all the same. You simple dont know the rules of ASA.
You perfer to contest every rule as if you are some kind of higher power.
The rule says arrow must be sticking in the target. Appartly you feel everyone cheated some how to benefit the archer. Get a life. I know the rules in 3d and appartly most pros know them also.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*3d is a great sport*

One that never trys it are always the one that bash it ever chance they get.

In this case, no one cheated! The group called the arrow like the rules say!

Rule says

If arrow is sticking in the target its a scorable arrow. Now three guys made the call and appartly they made the right call.

Its your loss to not shoot 3d or any other archery venue. You think for a minute, Im not going to shoot a fita round because of one person on AT saying something about it. No way! Just an excuse for you guys not to shoot 3d.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Still Trying said:


> I have never shot one of these 3D tournaments and after reading this entire thread I am convinced I have no desire to start now. I have better things to do with my time than participate in events where cheating is the norm and you need to bring money to file complaints about it. :thumbs_do


You do not need to bring money to file complaints, just do what I do, enforce the rules for the group you are shooting with. Granted, I can not do anything about any other groups, but I will enforce the rules for anyone in my group, which is the responsibility of all shooters. I have heard it at both shoots I went to this year, everyone else would call that arrow in and everyone else paces the targets to get an idea for yardage on the next target.


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

*rules*

I have read this thread, I do agree with the stepping off targets, it is hard to enforce that as a rule, I have never paced a target off . maybe thats my problem  but I do agree with Doug on the arrow call, the blame goes to the group scoring it. If I had made a off the tree , through the hoop, and stuck the target I would have demaded it scored as a zero.It was clearly a miss and I would have different feelings for anyone that would think otherwise, and I do shoot 3D and have always tried to be fair .In 18 years of 3D I have never taken a score that I have not earned.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Rule*

Rule says an arrow can glance off a tree and count. I have been told it happens more than one thinks. Even in the pro ranks. I shot a bedded buck low and the arrow landed in the target after hitting the ground. The rules say thats OK regardless what you non 3ders think. Dont play 3d if you dont like the rules. Its your loss.

Thats the rule! I dont make the rules but most in 3d understand the arrow counts.

Many times there limbs and branchs and hitting them is no differant than if you were hunting in the woods.

In this case the arrow didnt bounce back from what I was told. Seems there two sides to the story.

No one cheated. You indoors guys seem to think nothing like this ever happens in indoors. I have seen more arguements on indoor arrow calls than ever on 3d.

Score how you like. These guys called the arrow like the rule states or there intreputation of the rule. Only after the shoot is one questioning the call. Range officials are on the range at all 3d shoots. Call him if you think theres a rule infraction.

Ill be shooting the Deermans World Championship. They place holes and branchs in the arrow path sometimes. Thats the rules. Play by them or dont.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*They rule states it was the right call.*



steve hilliard said:


> I have read this thread, I do agree with the stepping off targets, it is hard to enforce that as a rule, I have never paced a target off . maybe thats my problem  but I do agree with Doug on the arrow call, the blame goes to the group scoring it. If I had made a off the tree , through the hoop, and stuck the target I would have demaded it scored as a zero.It was clearly a miss and I would have different feelings for anyone that would think otherwise, and I do shoot 3D and have always tried to be fair .In 18 years of 3D I have never taken a score that I have not earned.



We dont make rules up as we go in 3d. :wink: Just because you feel its not the right rule.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*AKDoug*

There five spots in indoor

If arrow goes off while drawing and you hit one of the spots by luck. Now its called blind luck and happens. Its a scorable arrow. Thats the rule!

No differance than 3d. You got a lucky break.

Indoor guys seem to feel everyone is cheating in 3d. Not the case at all. Some of the most honorable guys in archery today. Now thats a fact. :wink:


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## bowhunter357 (Jul 23, 2004)

Sdoss,
I'll give you another example that I witnessed on the open A/ simipro corse on Sunday. A shooter was at full draw, he clearly stated "DOWN" as he was letting down the shot went off and the arrow drove in the ground about 15 feet in front of the stake, well out of reach. Now, my interpretation of the rules is that this is a ZERO any way you look at it, if you can't reach the arrow from the stake it's a zero. However, the group at the stake decided since the guy had no intention of shooting the animal and stated clearly that he was letting down, as the rules state you should, they let him go ahead shoot the target (which he shot a 12) and scored it as a 12. This call was discussed with the range offical after the shoot just for future clarification and the range offical stated it should have been scored a zero, however, since the team did not bring it to the attention of an offical at the time of the incident and due to the nature of the incident, the 12 stood, no one in the group had an problem with that because they made that call as a group. FYI - this guy finished pretty high up in the money in the A class :wink: 

What I'm getting at is there are most likely hundreds of judgement calls made every weekend that effect the money, but if we were only there for the money, the only people who would show up would be the top 5 in each pro class. Just think 2 points is the difference between 5th and 15th sometimes, and I know everyone out there has had to call a questionable line, expecially with some of the new ASA targets using the seam as part of the line.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Metropolis, Illinois ASA pro-am*



Still Trying said:


> I have never shot one of these 3D tournaments and after reading this entire thread I am convinced I have no desire to start now. I have better things to do with my time than participate in events where cheating is the norm and you need to bring money to file complaints about it. :thumbs_do


I meet a few newbies that attended this ASA event for there first time this year. They enjoyed thereselves and said they would diffiantly be back. I recommend you go shoot and try it yourself and see why so many enjoy this sport called 3d. In all my years no one has ever filed a complaint and cheating is diffiantly not the norm.

Funny fact is most that ever shoot it, are hooked and understand what 3d is all about. 20 yrs ago if someone would told me I would still be shooting 3d today just as much as when I started, I would have laughed them off.
3D is a great game!


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## JUMPMAN (Jun 5, 2005)

*Pacing off*

My question is if you think someone is pacing off a target,why dont you just walk right next to them and try to have a conversation with this person?You can tell right their whether they are pacing it off or not,because they sure in the heck aren't going to be able to count and hold a conversation with you at the same time.Problem solved.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Dan, you can try and paint me into a corner as a spotty but you can't. I shoot way more 3D's a year than indoor tourneys and there is NO way we'd ever score an arrow that went into a target backwards and had the point touching the ground as anything but a zero. There are plenty of things that are not in the rule book that occur and common sense and sportsmanship should cover these. In my mind an arrow that passes the target without touching it, then returns to the target is a big fat zero. There is certainly a need for clarification in the rules for this. The original subject was described as this, yet you want to deflect (no pun intended) the subject towards other "lucky" shots.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*AKdoug*



AKDoug said:


> Dan, you can try and paint me into a corner as a spotty but you can't. I shoot way more 3D's a year than indoor tourneys and there is NO way we'd ever score an arrow that went into a target backwards and had the point touching the ground as anything but a zero. There are plenty of things that are not in the rule book that occur and common sense and sportsmanship should cover these. In my mind an arrow that passes the target without touching it, then returns to the target is a big fat zero. There is certainly a need for clarification in the rules for this. The original subject was described as this, yet you want to deflect (no pun intended) the subject towards other "lucky" shots.


The arrow didnt go backwards. It was stuck in the belly according to what the guys shooting with my buddy told me. It was a scorable arrow according to all we talk too. Longtime pros said it was scorable, it was disscussed at the campsite that evening. My buddy would have taken any score they gave him. He did not cheat and most in 3d dont cheat. You on the other hand seem to think other wise. You never answer my question about an arrow shot in wrong spot. Its just luck! Thats what a glance off a tree of branch is in 3d regardless what you call it in your world of 3d. Now if you ever should hit a branch or tree, dont you ever consider taking that arrow because something in your mind says the rules are all wrong. I happen to agree with the rule and the group. Once agin if you think guys competing against my shooting partner are going to cheat for him, your wrong there also.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

LMAO….

You isolate 1000 men and women in the woods with little oversight dangle a few hundred dollars to be won ( or more) and instruct them that some rules t are non-negotiable and then others are interpretations to the rules that only the majority of a small group has to agree on. If you are an outsider to this group you can pay your money to the tribal council to see if you can get that score voted off the shooters card. 

Sounds like a reality show to me … That's that can save 3-D archery today and sure to get some TV coverage… :smile:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

centerx said:


> LMAO….
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a reality show to me … That's that can save 3-D archery today and sure to get some TV coverage… :smile:


now that's an Idea.....   :beer: and pour me another :beer:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Amazing*

SDoss qoute

The other thing that this guy did, i knew was wrong and started to call a range official. Instead, he walked back a group to talk to Daniel Boone and i conferrred with the rest of my group and they said that there wasn't anything that you could do, so I just left it alone.


When has it ever been a rule two archers cant talk during a shoot? Now the true fact is, I walked up to place my stoll down and talk to a friend with encouragement and enjoyment of the sport even though we were competing against each other. Once again will somone tell me where in the rules this isnt allowed. No talking during a shoot! Seems Sdoss thinks everyone is cheating, appartly he didnt see my score.  

Sdoss
One other thing my shooting partner did was get me to not stop shooting when I shot a zero on a target and was ready to quit :angry: Stupid mistake on my part. If you remember he came told me its not fair to leave my group and not finish. Now he was right and I did appreciate him stopping me from quiting. Now that doesnt sound like a guy that is trying to cheat.

One thing for sure, my shooting partner will be headed to semi pro next year. Ill be here in open B enjoying archery like I always do. But Im not pointing fingers at anyone that beats me and saying there cheating. Ill just say there better than me and work on my archery game.


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

With regards to the arrow the way I interpret the rules it must stick in the target. Glance offs should count "if" it's sticking in the target. It sounds like the group didn't know the rules and the shooter profited by that. As for walking targets off I walk off local courses all the time if I make a bad shot. I don't do it to cheat but just to know how much I missed it by and to learn from my mistakes. Of course the targets at our local shoots are far enough apart that you couldn't use the information. I don't see how you can enforce stepping the target off but I would be for it since the targets are close enough that the information may help the shooter.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Arrow was sticking in the target*

I have a hard time beliving in any ASA pro am your going to find four guys that think because an arrow is laying on the target its scorable.

I was told by guys in the group, the arrow was stuck in the target. It was the nock end in the belly. Considering the log in front of target its very easy to understand how this happen. It didnt bounce back.

The members were competing against each other and not there to help the fellow archer. 

Once agian no one cheated. Sdoss next time report it to a range official next time you see me talking with another archer. Boy will you keep them busy. Im always visiting and enjoying myself.


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## dee (Dec 27, 2004)

bowhunter357 said:


> Sdoss,
> I'll give you another example that I witnessed on the open A/ simipro corse on Sunday. A shooter was at full draw, he clearly stated "DOWN" as he was letting down the shot went off and the arrow drove in the ground about 15 feet in front of the stake, well out of reach. Now, my interpretation of the rules is that this is a ZERO any way you look at it, if you can't reach the arrow from the stake it's a zero. However, the group at the stake decided since the guy had no intention of shooting the animal and stated clearly that he was letting down, as the rules state you should, they let him go ahead shoot the target (which he shot a 12) and scored it as a 12. This call was discussed with the range offical after the shoot just for future clarification and the range offical stated it should have been scored a zero, however, since the team did not bring it to the attention of an offical at the time of the incident and due to the nature of the incident, the 12 stood, no one in the group had an problem with that because they made that call as a group. FYI - this guy finished pretty high up in the money in the A class :wink:
> 
> What I'm getting at is there are most likely hundreds of judgement calls made every weekend that effect the money, but if we were only there for the money, the only people who would show up would be the top 5 in each pro class. Just think 2 points is the difference between 5th and 15th sometimes, and I know everyone out there has had to call a questionable line, expecially with some of the new ASA targets using the seam as part of the line.


The rule clearly states that if the arrow leaves the bow, other than being dropped, the arrow is scored where it lands. there hae been MANY shooters over the last few years who have sucked up a zip because of that. There isn't any leeway for the group to say, "shoot it over".


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## dee (Dec 27, 2004)

The ASA rules will be clarified to specifically address "walking off" targets. The Competition Committee will be sorking on this and the ruling will be done by the Classic and announced at the Safety Briefing. Stay tuned and go to the ASA Web Site for more info.

Every ASA member gets a copy of the rules with their membership card and they are available at the trailer and a stack is sent to each ASA Club. Why don't people read those things? Lazyness???? Appathy???? Not enough time to read a 3-page foldout???

www.asaarchery.com


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Go find the rules for ASA and present them here! I cant find anything about talking to anyone while shooting.


Just a spectator's views.......

Actually DB I think these rules cover talking to other groups while shooting.....I knew I remembered something about it because I was paranoid about breaking any shooting my first ASA in Harrisburg , PA
It sounds to me like even though we all understand that we're a shooting fraternity and many guys are good friends etc. etc. that the ASA rules committee also understands that it's real easy to walk back to a buddy and simply say "Hey how ya shootin'" and then whisper "42 yards" and walk away......Doesn't sound like they want a lot of interaction going on between groups to me.

*From the ASA Rules*

_H. As a courtesy to fellow competitors there will be no talking to spectators *or other groups* while other
competitors in the group are shooting. The use of cell phones is prohibited during competition and cell
phones and pagers are to be turned off. A shooter will receive a warning from the group for the first
offense. The penalty for the second offense is a deduction of five points from target score (but no less than
a zero). Each subsequent offense will receive a score of (“0”) for that target._

_L. A group may not approach the next shooting stake until the group occupying that stake has fully cleared
the area. Anyone advancing to the next stake and interfering with the movement of the other group will
receive a score of “0” for that target. Anyone found examining or touching the equipment of another group
without permission shall be in violation of Competition Committee Rules paragraph D-1 “Unsportsmanlike
Conduct.”_

Still unsure about exactly how the "Arrow in Question" came about it's final resting place,  but I think most of what is being discussed regarding it boils down to the "Letter of the Law vs. the SPIRIT of the law." 
If someone can sleep at night taking a score that they know they didn't deserve even if it is a "Loophole" in the rules or whatever, more power to you.......an individuals ethics are just that, individual. Some of us would be happy to take the score others would not........if there's no rule defining it, move on and get over it I guess.

........ It's also simple to say that someone's intentions by mixing with other groups while in the act of competing is innocent BSing, however this offers the opportunity for abuse, and even though the vast majority of us would never take advantage of the situation and cheat, the fact is that the opportunity is there and there needs to be rules in place to avoid it even if it only occurs in a tiny percentage of the time.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I have no idea why this is amusing me so….

I just have a vision of the rules committee coming up with the original set of rules and the first one that ask "how do we score an arrow that sticks to the target… Uhhh … backwards" getting laughed out of the room…..

Now a few example of that very thing a few years later has that guy running around " I told you so,, I told you so"


So If my arrow hits this obnoxious log and instead of doing a 360 and hitting nock first it cracks in 1/2 the point and 3 inches of arrow is found in the target….

Is it scorable Or not ?? Does 50% of the arrow need to have successfully stuck into the target for it to count. If I'm shooting screw in points and they were really lose on the shot and the arrow falls out after impact but the point remains .. Can I score it ??

Really this is a very important matter for the rules committee to review. In fact it probably deserves it's own chapter.


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

I guess any arrow in counts but the tip wouldn't since it's a component and not the arrow.


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> I have a hard time beliving in any ASA pro am your going to find four guys that think because an arrow is laying on the target its scorable.
> 
> I was told by guys in the group, the arrow was stuck in the target. It was the nock end in the belly. Considering the log in front of target its very easy to understand how this happen. It didnt bounce back.
> 
> ...



Giving that example if I had been there I would have scored the arrow according to where it was in the target. In this case, the belly, it would have been a 5, as they scored it. If it happened this way I don't see anything wrong with their judgement.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*We were told several ther arrows scored like this*



centerx said:


> I have no idea why this is amusing me so….
> 
> I just have a vision of the rules committee coming up with the original set of rules and the first one that ask "how do we score an arrow that sticks to the target… Uhhh … backwards" getting laughed out of the room…..
> 
> ...


We were told an arrow hit a tree and broke into pieces and the tip went into the target. Scored arrow. I personnally think they should have ask for a ruling from the range official. Then we wouldnt be disscussing it at all. I think the rule should be arrow should be intact with front end stuck in the target. If it can happen it will in 3d.


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## Sdoss (Jun 6, 2004)

*Just to straighten out a few things...*

1) I shot in the group and i didn't hear it from here or there. This is straight from a person who was there. The arrow missed the target going clearly underneath it. The arrow then hit a tree and bounced back where it lay (fletching first) resting AGAINST the backside of the deers leg. The opposite side of the deer. Nothing was sticking in the animal.

2) I may have been unclear about him walking back to talk to DB. I had no problem with him talking to anyone else, anywhere else. I used him walking back to talk to DB as my opportunity to talk to the others in the group about his pacing off the upcoming targets.

3) There was absolutely no doubt that he was walking off the next target. Your buddy struggled with the first target and each time we crossed the road, with one exception. On Sunday, we crossed the road from target #20 to target #1. There was a logjam there that had us all waiting. As the group in front of us went to pull there arrows, he headed to the stake. One of the members of the group pulling the arrows paced the yardage back to the stake. I stepped in front of your buddy and he nearly broke his neck trying to look around me. He was staring at each step this guy took. Before this gets started. I intentionally turned my back to the individual pacing to try to get in the way of your buddy.

Am I disappointed in myself for not speaking up? Yes.
Am I disappointed in DB's opinion? Definately
Will I speak up in the future? Definately
Am I jealous that he won some money? Definately Not. I have more respect for myself than that. And on this note: DB, you don't know me, so don't act like my behavior is based on jealosy. You know nothing about my behavior. I would have went to ASA if this was the case. You know who I feel sorry for? I feel sorry for the guys that finished behind this guy and didn't get to take home what they should've.
Your buddy was a nice guy. Being nice obviously doesn't mean you have morals.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Sdoss*



Sdoss said:


> 1) I shot in the group and i didn't hear it from here or there. This is straight from a person who was there. The arrow missed the target going clearly underneath it. The arrow then hit a tree and bounced back where it lay (fletching first) resting AGAINST the backside of the deers leg. The opposite side of the deer. Nothing was sticking in the animal.
> 
> 2) I may have been unclear about him walking back to talk to DB. I had no problem with him talking to anyone else, anywhere else. I used him walking back to talk to DB as my opportunity to talk to the others in the group about his pacing off the upcoming targets.
> 
> ...


Just like you it is his first year. He has learned to shoot well very quickly. He won Pa ASA pro am, impossiable to step the yardages off on hills. He can shoot and he can judge yardage. He is not sandbagging and headed for semi pro next year.
You and your group certainly could have ask for ruling. My buddy didnt ask for the score, he would have clearly took whatever you guys called. Thats why he ask a few pros about the ruling that night, he wasnt sure. All I know is what you guys in the group told me, we were all lauging about it and I repeated myself, the arrow was sticking in the target backwards. Now on the second day he couldnt have walked across the water, he hit many 12's and you saw it. Now was he stepping it off. I dont think so! Ill tell him to skip back from now on just for you. All you had to do was say something if you thought he was doing it. Dont blame him when no one in the group said anything to a new shooter in his first year. Actually it is fourth shoot. I wasnt in your group, but many count there steps back and how anyone knows this is beyond me. Now if you want to challenge him to a judging contest just let me know. He judges well. My promblem is you wait untell now to make the call, I feel all along you knew the rule and didnt make the call and now you bring it up. Next time do make the call on me or anyone you think is cheating, just be sure to back it with hard eveidence, not the fact the he shoots excepational well.

Your group made the call, not the shooter.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*He struggled on first target*

I clearly saw the arrow. It was less than a quarter inch low, like most of his arrows and you darn well now he is a shooter. He shot for every 12 like he always does.


If you allowed a arrow that was laying on a target to be scored. Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You guys in your group didnt tell me that! They said the arrow was sticking nock in the belly!
Dont blame the shooter when your group made the bad call.


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## curs1 (Oct 24, 2002)

Dan it seems to me you don't remember our conversation on the last target about stepping off yardages and setting your sight before changing stakes. I said one day he will get his butt busted for doing it. If I had of known how to handle the situation at that time count on me doing it. I wouldn't be pointing a finger at a person who is telling the truth as there were others who seen the same thing as well. The arrow sticking in the target nock piece or whatever is what it is scored doesn't say no wheres that the point has to be what is sticking in the target. But the stepping off was also seen by other people and like SDoss didn't know exactly how to handle it but I sure do know now . End of Story
Evan


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Evan*

What did I say. How are you going to prove it? You saw many counting steps and you admitted to me it happens alot, I agree it happens also. Next time make the call. 

You saw guys in are group disscussing yardage after the shot. It happens and its not that big of deal after the shot.

Im not bashfull and I will make the call. Archer gets one warning and then he dissqualified. Thats what someone should have done. New shooter should have been warned by his group and thats how it should have been handled.

Happens in the pros and it happens in open B.


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## knobby (Mar 4, 2003)

really, who gives a crap anymore, its OVER, next time we will all know how to score a shot and will watch for people stepping off yardages, sometimes these threads get ridiculous and we wonder why people leave AT and the pros are no shows anymore, it kind of reminds of my little guys daycare and bunch of children arguing over nothing, only difference is we are all 17 to 70 not 3 or 4


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## Sdoss (Jun 6, 2004)

*I clearly saw the Arrow*

*He struggled on first target 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I clearly saw the arrow. It was less than a quarter inch low, like most of his arrows and you darn well now he is a shooter. He shot for every 12 like he always does.[/**B]

DB,
That was a quote from the last thing you just said. Are you saying that he didn't struggle on the first target and that he was only a quarter inch low of the 12? Because if you are, you are really putting your foot in your mouth. The first target is the one he missed!!! You are defending something that you obviously didn't see and wasn't a part of. To be quite honest, you are destroying your reputation every time you defend him. You seemed to be a really good guy and I can understand defending your friends, but at some point they need to stand accountable for there actions. I will never not call someone in for clarification from this point on. You have made sure of this.*


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## YnoX (May 11, 2004)

> I shot in the group and i didn't hear it from here or there. This is straight from a person who was there. The arrow missed the target going clearly underneath it. The arrow then hit a tree and bounced back where it lay (fletching first) resting AGAINST the backside of the deers leg. The opposite side of the deer. Nothing was sticking in the animal.


Bet ya it was one of them new "Foam Seeking" arrows, and there are no rules against them yet :wink: 

Seriously, under this scenario it was big fat ZERO by any 3D book, period.


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## huntn3d (Jul 1, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> I clearly saw the arrow. It was less than a quarter inch low, like most of his arrows and you darn well now he is a shooter. He shot for every 12 like he always does.
> 
> 
> If you allowed a arrow that was laying on a target to be scored. Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You guys in your group didnt tell me that! They said the arrow was sticking nock in the belly!
> Dont blame the shooter when your group made the bad call.


 How did you clearly see his arrow?It is a rule that you dont proceed to the next lane until the group ahead of you has moved on/Beside that he has to live with it if this is what truely happen he knows in his mind. :mg:


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## thndrr (Feb 8, 2004)

I have had the pleasure of meeting DB a few times in the past year. IMHO, world class kinda guy...  

I got to meet curs1 and canam 1 time last year when they came to Mo. and we were all but rained out, they probably don't even remember me. BUT, from what little I did get to see, GREAT folks also.....

AK Doug, I've never had the pleasure, but your posts are usually very informative and top notch..... :thumbs_up 

My point being that when I think of "Daniel Boone" "Curs1" or "Canam", The word (or thought) "cheat" is no where in the vicinity........ 

I've never met Doug but seems a straight up kinda guy too...

All this makes me very glad I do it for FUN and the comradery.(sp)......

DB, see ya Fri. lookin' forward to it !


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*My mistake*



Sdoss said:


> *He struggled on first target
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


*

For whatever reason I was thinking you guys shot the wharthog first. Maybe that was on the second day. My question to you is why would you not make the call. That I dont understand and why no one in the group question anything untell now. Seems like after the fact, unfair. My reputation is OK. Many here have shot with me and know darn well, I play the game fair. Lesson learned and next time you guys do whatever you feel you need to to do! I will and thats a fact! You brought me into this and I gave you my opionion just like it was told to me by guys in your group. Thats all I can go by. This is the first I heard of arrow touching. 
Appartly there was bad judgement on many and its over now and hopefully we all learn from this. Ill tell my buddy to skip back from the targets at the next shoot. *


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## chillin (Mar 11, 2004)

well heck if the pro's do it ....it's as good as gold! :embarasse 
don't you guys know that EVERYTHING evolves around the "PRO'S"  
if you step off your yardage or turn 0's into 5 it's ok the PRO'S do it...ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Some of us will never know*



chillin said:


> well heck if the pro's do it ....it's as good as gold! :embarasse
> don't you guys know that EVERYTHING evolves around the "PRO'S"
> if you step off your yardage or turn 0's into 5 it's ok the PRO'S do it...ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Because we dont have what it takes to get to the pro level.


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## glenny (Jul 25, 2004)

*Wow.*

I have just started going to ASA's for this?
I think you Daniel have said enough and there is no need to keep defending yourself.
As for my opinion on this matter,
I have always only paced off the targets that threw me off so bad I ended up a bad eight or a five...
This whole pacing off.... the next target well,'
It's plain cheating...but what is the point of cheating in archery,to win money?
You people are scaring the begeebies out of all thee newcomers to this Discipline(sport). 
The best thing to do about it is to do exactly what the one dude said,and shoot across from each target on every shot.However,your still pacing off the next target ahead of the next one if your CHEATING,right?and...How can you really tell?
Talking after pulling the targets is a great suggestion,and really is the way that might confuse the cheater to me anyways,so why wouldn't ya talk.
Talking saying hi,seeing some freind and chatting,to perhaps everyone and anyone is not a crime and is not considered to me by any means unexceptable unless your talking as a person who is shooting,or interfering with a group while someone is shooting/preparing to draw/shoot.Some people just are quite more vocal...as others and for some reason there voices seem to travel quite long distances and are quite really annoying,I do know a few of these people.But,what can ya say to a person like that anyways,right?
The arrow being leaning up against the back side of the animal with or without the nock stuck in the target is a zero....relative,buddy,girlfreind,dave cousins?
ZERO.
I don't know why this has to be such a soap opera on here,and I'm really suprised the moderator is involved,quite the thread,
and I will see ya all at the championship.


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## chillin (Mar 11, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Because we dont have what it takes to get to the pro level.



WE ? dan i think you have EVERYTHING to be a pro :thumbs_up 

if that is what it takes???? thank god i'm not .........


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*My name was brought into this thread*

Being a moderator doesnt mean Im not entitled to my opionion.

I have been the same guy that has been for a long time and nothing is going to change that!

3D is a great game and there always be some differences just like any archery scoring event.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Im not no pro*



chillin said:


> WE ? dan i think you have EVERYTHING to be a pro :thumbs_up
> 
> if that is what it takes???? thank god i'm not .........


Good amatuer at the best. Amazing fourth post and you have me figured out so quickly!  I quess being a pro isnt quite what it use to be to you!


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

here's my take on this poison.....

first i dont like the fact that pacing can/will/does take place at shoots....and the only real answer to that is to have staggered targets....period

second, from what ive read on here, if the arrow in question was merely leaning on animal, it was definately a 0....if it has anything actually stuck in the deers leg, it was a five.....doesnt matter that it skipped or what not.....and believe me, you use the rules to your advantage, not against yourself.....and if any of you think luck isnt part of the game, your lieing to yourselfs.....

third, if again, i read this correctly, the arrow wasnt stuck in the animal....i would like to know which pro's told this guy it was a 5...because either they need to learn the rules and obide by them.....or they need to be given the correct story when asked about a rule

fourth, i know and have shot with boone....and boone isnt a cheat.....and i dont think boone would ever tell anyone how to score a target, if he himself didnt know the rule....and he says, if he didnt know how to score it himself, he would ask for a judge.....

fifth, i believe the thread starter didnt start thread to cause any trouble...but more wanted some clarification for himself and future possible situations.....

sixth, this thread sure seems to have gone from possible good and valid discussion of points and situations.....to finger pointing and accusations ....funny how anyone on here wants to imply they wouldnt shoot 3d because of this thread....how silly and narrow minded is that....besides, who are we kidding....situations and possible rules violations and interpretations happen in every single archery venue....period

seventh, i believe boone was defending a friend, and as he defended, some tried to turn the tables and be judge, jury, and executioner all in one on boone.....i think boone defended his friend rather well without coming across as crossing any lines as to rules, and i do believe boone believes in his heart that his friend is a good sport and good competitor.....

perhaps the best thing to have done, would have simply made a group decision on the spot, all acknowledging that they werent sure of the rule, and say that after finishing the shoot, that the group would than go seek a range official and mark the proper score on the card......that way no cards would have been turned in wrong, and no one could fault the group or the shooter.....this is what i have learned from this situation....i will in future, go along with group decision, and make sure that we as a group seek official ruling on something none of us know, or just want clarification on a controversial situation.....

i dont find fault in the thread starter....nor do i find fault in the shooter...because, the whole group was indeed involved in this particular situtation.....so the outcome of this situation is water of the damn as they say.....


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## JUMPMAN (Jun 5, 2005)

OBT has spoken.Enough said... :zip:


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## bowhunter357 (Jul 23, 2004)

Since I haven't addressed the pacing subject here goes! I see absolutetly nothing wrong with pacing a target after you shoot it, it helps you determine if you made a good shot, got lucky, etc. It also gives you confidence in your yardage judging if you were close, that ALL goes in to making each and everyone of us better archers, AND THAT'S WHAT EVERY ARECHERY CLUB AND OR ORGANIZATION SHOULD BE ABOUT! Now, as far trying to step off the target in the next lane that's cheating, but in my opinion it can hurt as much as it helps. If it's an issue of debate then ASA needs to look into the possibility of setting all the corses up like the A class and up, "alternating stakes."


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## GeorgiaJAWS (Feb 11, 2004)

*Why not*

Daniel Boone.....It is a big jump for someone to have plans to shoot SemiPro next year only after one year of shooting. If he has to move up there is always A class. And if he has to move up then he had a heck of a FIRST year. :wink:

Why do you keep speaking for him?

Let's hear what he has to say.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*He is not a member here*



GeorgiaJAWS said:


> Daniel Boone.....It is a big jump for someone to have plans to shoot SemiPro next year only after one year of shooting. If he has to move up there is always A class. And if he has to move up then he had a heck of a FIRST year. :wink:
> 
> Why do you keep speaking for him?
> 
> Let's hear what he has to say.


He just doesnt do internet. He has done well for his first year. He will do Ok in semi pro. His goal is pro and nothing else will ever be OK with him and he realizes its not an easy task at hand. He understands how to compete. He will learn from this tournament. He has made many friends in 3d in a short time. Really a good guy! He will be in Nelsonville.

I dont condone cheating of any kind ever. Even my best friends. Believe me we have some knockouts about calls amoungst my buddys, shoot with us and you earn it!

I honestly meant no dissrespect to Sdoss and never said your were jealous. No one should ever be jealous. I just go shoot my best score and let everyone else shoot there best. We are competing with ourselves in this sport.

Next time anyone in a tournament ask me about someone cheating. Ill tell them its your right to call a range official and give them a warning. I never have ever had anyone trying to cheat in any tournament at ASA. Shot with a great group of guys in Illinois, enjoyed myself and had a great time.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> I dont condone cheating of any kind ever. Even my best friends.


Hey big Dan, I have never cheated in my life brother........but at the BRS shoot.......I will do whatever is necessary to keep from coughing up a crispie to the HOOD!


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

bowhunter357 said:


> Since I haven't addressed the pacing subject here goes! I see absolutetly nothing wrong with pacing a target after you shoot it, it helps you determine if you made a good shot, got lucky, etc. It also gives you confidence in your yardage judging if you were close, that ALL goes in to making each and everyone of us better archers, AND THAT'S WHAT EVERY ARECHERY CLUB AND OR ORGANIZATION SHOULD BE ABOUT! Now, as far trying to step off the target in the next lane that's cheating, but in my opinion it can hurt as much as it helps. If it's an issue of debate then ASA needs to look into the possibility of setting all the corses up like the A class and up, "alternating stakes."


The pacing everyone is referring to is not pacing to the target you just shot, but pacing off the next target you are about to shoot.........


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## XQuest (May 5, 2003)

*Here's what to do next time*



Daniel Boone said:


> He just doesnt do internet. He has done well for his first year. He will do Ok in semi pro. His goal is pro and nothing else will ever be OK with him and he realizes its not an easy task at hand. He understands how to compete. He will learn from this tournament. He has made many friends in 3d in a short time. Really a good guy! He will be in Nelsonville.
> 
> I dont condone cheating of any kind ever. Even my best friends. Believe me we have some knockouts about calls amoungst my buddys, shoot with us and you earn it!
> 
> ...


I was in Kansas at a spot shoot and one point behind.The person leading shot a liner that didn't cut the line (this is some time back and you had to cut the line).Of course he wanted that 2 points but when I asked if he agreed that it didn't cut the line-he said yes it didn't but it didn't have to.I told him I was scoring it as out and all of us would explain to an official as we finished.I said if you can get the official to change it we would do it and that would be that.You should know the rest of the story-have you ever got an official to change a score card?IMHO-leave these situations in the hands of the shooter and the officials.My 2 cents worth and only my opinion,I'm not here to get roasted.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Big Country*



Big Country said:


> Hey big Dan, I have never cheated in my life brother........but at the BRS shoot.......I will do whatever is necessary to keep from coughing up a crispie to the HOOD!


Looking forward to seeing you agian. Take it easy on Mobuck on the golf course.

Your dollar is safe competing with the Hood. After the party Fri. He will be lucky to see the targets. :beer: If you know what I mean.

Now 3dmama may be a challenge.

Now there will be some fine shooters there for sure.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Dan, I have a feeling that I will be taking it REAL easy on Mobuck at the golf course!  

BTW, the Hood doesn`t have to see the targets, he just has to see the scorecard.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Just had a good pm with SDoss*

We both agreed we both enjoy archery and whats best for it. Often times things get heated here when discussing tournaments and shooting. I appreciate honesty and Shane made some great comments and some good things were brought out that will be considered in future tournaments.
I would be glad to share a stake with Shane or any other archer here at AT.

Its nice to be able to disscuss and still be friends. Thats how it should be here at AT. Thanks Shane and I look forward to shooting some in the future.


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## Sdoss (Jun 6, 2004)

*I apologize to DB...*

I don't want anyone to think that this was an attack on DB or anyone else. I was disappointed in myself for not speaking up. DB was a great guy when I met him in Metropolis and I feel the same way now. It is a great site and there will always be disagreements that all end the way this one has.

There was a couple of fellows who said that they wouldn't go shoot an ASA due to my comments. I hope that they reconsider. It is more than competition. It is a place to go and meet others from different places and make new friends. It is really a fun weekend around things we all obviously love. 

See ya'll on the next post.


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## glenny (Jul 25, 2004)

*xxooxxoo*



Sdoss said:


> I don't want anyone to think that this was an attack on DB or anyone else. I was disappointed in myself for not speaking up. DB was a great guy when I met him in Metropolis and I feel the same way now. It is a great site and there will always be disagreements that all end the way this one has.
> 
> There was a couple of fellows who said that they wouldn't go shoot an ASA due to my comments. I hope that they reconsider. It is more than competition. It is a place to go and meet others from different places and make new friends. It is really a fun weekend around things we all obviously love.
> 
> See ya'll on the next post.


I was wondering the same from the getgo.
I've been to the the ASA's twice so far this year and it is the most awesome place to meet and talk to other archers.
Too bad there isn't any pretty women there to talk to...hum hum.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*SDoss*

Kevin just called who shot with you guys in your group. He said you guys made the correct call and felt honestly it was the right call. 

Thats all any group can do at a shoot. Do the best you can do!

No reason for an apoligee. You just showed your concerns.

See you at the next shoot sometime. 

ASA is a great shoot and all that dont shoot it are missing out on some great fun times.


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## Ak_Mathews (Sep 8, 2003)

*Daniel Boone*

I never thought that I would be saying this...but I agree with Ak_Doug...JK..Doug...Daniel Boone, My opinion is that, even though you can't prove that someone is stepping off the yardage...IT IS DISHONEST AND SHOULDN'T BE DONE!!!!!!!!! if you have to cheat to win than in my book your a little pu$$*.....Of course I can't prove that your walking off the yardage, but I can prove that you have no self resect or dignity!!!!!!!!! What kind of man can walk away happily with a 1st place trophy in his hand knowing he is cheating.....Not the way I roll DB!!!!!


Adam Barrett


P.S. Doug...you gonna be at field this weekend, you missed a good one in kenai, we got waisted at Maloneys cabin...lol


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## Target Tony (Mar 3, 2003)

all ASA has to do is make the guys shoot alternating stakes.. that would cure the pacing off thing for the next target... :thumbs_up 
i believe the Pros do it dont they ?


Shoot Strong
Tony


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Adam- I'll have my dad's motorhome at the State Field. Feel free to stop by.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*ASA is OK*

Personally, I have no promblems if they changed the rule and allowed someone to walk the target off after already shot.

Alternating stakes should be a given and so simple to do.

Tony
Looking forward to seeing you this weekend. :beer:


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## canam (Apr 2, 2003)

Mike Tyrell is open to suggestions and listens to what people say. He is an awesome guy and listens to us.  The problem is that people need to speak up and say something. This is the time of year to be making suggestions for next year. I think it is a lot easier to take the bull by the horns and send a simple e-mail than to keep saying "They should............." and never do or say anything to let them know what's on your mind. If anybody feels that there are ways to improve, let them know. :shade:


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

what if you step one off just to see if you were off on your yardage or you just missed??? just because you step that one off doesnt mean you cant disregaurd the outcome. hell ive tried going off what i stepped off on a target before the other, it dont work for me. so i just shootem. would another 5 points on that guys score really put into the money????? probaly not.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Rivershark*



rivershark said:


> what if you step one off just to see if you were off on your yardage or you just missed??? just because you step that one off doesnt mean you cant disregaurd the outcome. hell ive tried going off what i stepped off on a target before the other, it dont work for me. so i just shootem. would another 5 points on that guys score really put into the money????? probaly not.


In open B class, five points can be the differnce in 40 place or 10th place. Very tight score class. Very competitive!


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