# Shaking at full draw



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Look up fundamental tremors. They can come in many forms and have nothing to do with physical conditioning. I have this problem when shooting right handed but not in the legs. I've seen it in others but not in the legs. While this may not be the problem it's worth ruling out as it can't be fixed, you would need a workaround of some sort. Shooting lefty was the answer for me.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

EPLC said:


> Look up fundamental tremors. They can come in many forms and have nothing to do with physical conditioning. I have this problem when shooting right handed but not in the legs. I've seen it in others but not in the legs. While this may not be the problem it's worth ruling out as it can't be fixed, you would need a workaround of some sort. Shooting lefty was the answer for me.


Thanks for your comment EPLC, I will check fundamental tremors. Good to heard that shooting lefty helped you.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

Go see a neurologist
MLC


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Have a few shots of bourbon before you shoot


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

LongIslandHunt said:


> Have a few shots of bourbon before you shoot


Bourbon before shoot is something which I have thought but newer tried, need to test :wink:

Somehow I think that shaking might have something to do with stress, caffeine, nicotine or these all together. These are easy to stop and check if it help or not.

Sure I have done shooting very hard to myself because of fear that during full draw shakes are going to start in any second (and sure shakes starts right away if you are waiting that to happen). Somehow I have loose that nice part of archery, mean that shooting itself is not that fun anymore because I calculate points too much and not that much enjoy just shooting. With target panic my healing started on that day when I decide not care less about points. Maybe I need to do that also again, just not care less if I'm shaking or not. We will see how it goes.


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## cncpro (Jan 29, 2009)

You might try a little test.
Try drawing the bow and coming to anchor but tell yourself you are not going to shoot that arrow. You are just going to hold on the bullseye.
Now see if you still shake ? 
If you only shake after you decide to shoot and start squeezing the release, you are still anticipating the shot and it is a form of target panic.
If you still shake even when you say you are not going to shoot , that may be something physical.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

What type of targets are you shooting? Can you shoot a blank bale without shaking or does it only happen when you have a dot to shoot at? Have you tried shooting 3d targets without a dot to see if that changes anything?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like the responses above that asked you to test coming to anchor and not even letting go of the thumb peg and just aiming at the spot, if you can do this without the shakes we are getting to the problem. Then the second step of the process is to decide not to shoot and only come to anchor and let go of the thumb peg and still just aim for a while and then let down. This will point out if you are scared of your hinge while off of the thumb peg. 

Being scared of the hinge during the draw cycle is the worst case and will totally ruin the entire shot sequence but many people are perfectly happy up to the moment it is time to release the peg and then they start having trouble.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

What amplifies this whole issue is being a valley sitter that only comes to full draw and slightly touches the wall, this method of shooting really never allows your body to engage into the shot and if you have any anxiety or pressure in the shooting you will really have trouble. So learning to shoot with a good productive amount of back tension preload is a really big key that will help you be totally engaged into the shot and it puts tension into the entire system and is something we need to get into your shot.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Thank you all for fresh ideas, I really appreciate your help! Normally I shoot just paper, vegas target face indoor and 50m target face outdoor. Have not ever tried 3d or ever blue 5-spot targets.

I tested it with attitude not going to shoot at all, first without any target and then with target face. My legs still started shake quite soon (maybe 3-4 seconds after anchor), does not matter if there was target or just white paper (tried really close, just seeing white from scope).

However, if my legs are going to shake without not going even to shoot I noticed that I might also anticipating the shot because shakes are going stronger if I even think to start shot sequence with hinge release.


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

It may be a neurological disorder, but I'd guess not. Shaking is just one more of many target panic symptoms. I started doing it myself while rehabbing from a shoulder injury. You break the habit same as with any other TP symptom, and there are more than a few ways to do it.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know, I haven't done it for a while but the last time I did it I was working with a guy and needed him to feel the process. 

So we turned the moon all the way so that the hook could not physically fire, then I demonstrated to him that the hook couldn't fire and I drew back and came to anchor and went through my shot process and then when I was done I let down. then I handed it over to him and he was able to do the same thing and feel a hinge and what it could feel like without any fear. The whole process is something I kind of had forgotten about until right now and just thinking about it was a powerful thing. 

I have never had a stan hinge with the trainer lock that allows you to come to full draw and then execute the shot and feel it fire but it doesn't allow the hook to let go. To me it is a very nice addition to their hinges but with a normal hinge you can experience the same thing.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Padgett said:


> You know, I haven't done it for a while but the last time I did it I was working with a guy and needed him to feel the process.
> 
> So we turned the moon all the way so that the hook could not physically fire, then I demonstrated to him that the hook couldn't fire and I drew back and came to anchor and went through my shot process and then when I was done I let down. then I handed it over to him and he was able to do the same thing and feel a hinge and what it could feel like without any fear. The whole process is something I kind of had forgotten about until right now and just thinking about it was a powerful thing.
> 
> I have never had a stan hinge with the trainer lock that allows you to come to full draw and then execute the shot and feel it fire but it doesn't allow the hook to let go. To me it is a very nice addition to their hinges but with a normal hinge you can experience the same thing.


That is a nice idea, either I don't have any stan releases but I will turn moon from some hinge and start slowly again to build my shooting. Somehow I still believe that legs shaking is TP symptoms even it seems not to be common.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, if you are standing in line to get a burger and your legs are shaking then maybe you have something other than target panic going on. But if you are just fine until you pick up a bow and come to full draw and then all of a sudden your legs are shaking then you have got target panic. 

For me this winter it has been so tough because I have had to deal with a entire season of lower than normal shooting while my good friend has won lancasters and the iowa pro am and is being offered contracts. You are kidding yourself if those things aren't things that I want, I want them really stinking bad. That doesn't mean that I have had a bad time shooting though because I have had a great time beating him a few nights and pushing him in some fun competitive drills like shoot downs that we do and it has been a great indoor season. In the end once you find a way to allow yourself to execute really smooth shots and find the focus to aim really good you can enjoy shots where that happens and then try and produce another good shot. That is what I am doing and last night I shot a nice little 300 55x 5-spot round and even though that is well below my normal score I had about the best shooting night of my indoor season. My shot actually felt really smooth and I finished with 15 really nice shots.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Keep in mind that there is a order to things, I get bashed many times by high end shooters for some of my beliefs when working with a new hinge shooter because I really want them to forget about accuracy and a strong hold and do nothing but smoothly execute. Of course when you are at your best and you are trying to win a big tournament and everything is working better than ever you can do things like really hold strong and see perfect pin float and sent awesome arrows to the target and smoke the baby x over and over. But when you are struggling with target panic or getting used to a hinge for the first time letting go of accuracy and allowing yourself to do some learning can be a really good thing. I have been on both ends of that stick, this winter at my lowest point of shooting ability I won my first indoor tournament. I did nothing but execute smooth shots and I got lucky and put up a decent score and took home a nice trophy. I have also been at my best and able to step up and hold right on a 12 ring with a asa victory within reach and feel like levi morgan and send a arrow on its way.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Padgett said:


> Well, if you are standing in line to get a burger and your legs are shaking then maybe you have something other than target panic going on. But if you are just fine until you pick up a bow and come to full draw and then all of a sudden your legs are shaking then you have got target panic.
> 
> For me this winter it has been so tough because I have had to deal with a entire season of lower than normal shooting while my good friend has won lancasters and the iowa pro am and is being offered contracts. You are kidding yourself if those things aren't things that I want, I want them really stinking bad. That doesn't mean that I have had a bad time shooting though because I have had a great time beating him a few nights and pushing him in some fun competitive drills like shoot downs that we do and it has been a great indoor season. In the end once you find a way to allow yourself to execute really smooth shots and find the focus to aim really good you can enjoy shots where that happens and then try and produce another good shot. That is what I am doing and last night I shot a nice little 300 55x 5-spot round and even though that is well below my normal score I had about the best shooting night of my indoor season. My shot actually felt really smooth and I finished with 15 really nice shots.


Your burger example is a good one and similar reason I believe to TP in my case. I could easily stand in line with a burger without any legs shaking (actually done it in Vegas shoot just a few days ago:teeth: However, I did not wanted to even try to shoot in practice range because of fear about legs shaking. I don't have any kinds of shaking problems anywhere else than behind the bow.

I'm also quite competitive guy who want shoot well and win competitions. Three years ago my scores where going really high, but then there came that time when scores did not gone better on every day. I know, it's silly to think that results will raise every time when you go to range. I shot 294/295 rounds to small x vegas target (x as 10) and that was not enough for me, so I tried to get thumb trigger a bit lighter just to get a few points more. And guess what, that button went too light and I did not get more points, I get TP less than a week. 

Once I really thought that my TP is gone, but right after those legs shakes started I was not sure anymore. So it seems that my own competitive attitude is giving me problems now. Somehow I need to change my attitude about archery, it should be fun anyway. Maybe just need to back to basics and forget competitions for a while.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Try shooting in a chair and see if it stops. I had a problem like that and it was tremor and it was only when I was shooting a bow. EPLC. PAUL. . told me how to fix it I started shooting left hand and it stopped A pro shooter told me it was target panic and it was not . I been shooting left hand for 4 years and it's great


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

redman said:


> Try shooting in a chair and see if it stops. I had a problem like that and it was tremor and it was only when I was shooting a bow. EPLC. PAUL. . told me how to fix it I started shooting left hand and it stopped A pro shooter told me it was target panic and it was not . I been shooting left hand for 4 years and it's great


Tried with chair and shakes did not gone away completely, still could feel it. Good to heard that you have had same problem and founded a way to walk away from it. It seems hard to say if legs shaking is coming from TP or tremor.

Today shakes where much more smaller anyway, maybe I was exited earlier to doing different test. This actually amplifies my feeling that this really could be TP symptoms and not medical issue. I have decreased caffeine and nicotine dramatically on today, really want to see if it help or not. Should decrease least blood pressure, will test it on tomorrow morning.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

rajahmar said:


> Tried with chair and shakes did not gone away completely, still could feel it. Good to heard that you have had same problem and founded a way to walk away from it. It seems hard to say if legs shaking is coming from TP or tremor.
> 
> Today shakes where much more smaller anyway, maybe I was exited earlier to doing different test. This actually amplifies my feeling that this really could be TP symptoms and not medical issue. *I have decreased caffeine and nicotine dramatically on today*, really want to see if it help or not. Should decrease least blood pressure, will test it on tomorrow morning.


Remember that dramatic reduction of addictive agents like caffeine and nicotine can cause withdrawal symptoms which may exacerbate your problem. It's best to slowly decrease the use of those products to give your body a chance to slowly get used to the change.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, you know as much as it sucks maybe you just need to be more open about things. I know just two years ago I had really never done anything nationally and was already coaching at a very entry level and I got bashed a lot here on archery talk because I had no real wins to even deserve doing any coaching. Then I got on the podium a few times and many guys started backing me up here on archery talk, I didn't ask for it but they had shot with me or checked the asa scores on the website and did it anyway. This year I have been open about not shooting at the same level as normal for me because I had arm surgery and the moment that I talked about shooting at that lower level of course I got bashed. 

Archery talk is a tough place to survive and so it showing up to a league night or local tournament. Pride and desire to shoot well even though you just want to have a good time always find a way to get in the way.

So 

This winter I have talked to my two good shooting buddies on multiple occasions about our goals, I have taken it upon myself to bring this stuff up over and over so that we can treat each and every league night as a productive learning experience with our nerves. We openly know that we want to beat each other, Just last night I beat my buddy Jason in the vegas round and then he beat me in a lancaster style shoot down. We talk about our nerves all the time and in the beginning it was hard for jason to admit to me that he was nervous, I knew he wanted to beat me but he internalized it and didn't want to talk about it at all. Now we can openly talk to each other about the nerves and have been working on shooting right through them. The nerves are right there chewing on us but we are shooting right through them and at times actually learning how to use them to shoot at a higher level than normal instead of allowing them to throw the scoring round down the toilet. 

All of this has allowed Jason to step up on the shooting platform at lancasters and take home his first really big national tournament, where just a few weeks before when the leagues started we were so freaking nervous that just shooting against each other we couldn't hit a 10 ring to save our life. What he did wasn't a accident, we want to win and we talk about this stuff and then we attend leagues and tournaments and condition ourselves to be able to stand up there and execute smoothly.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This whole indoor season could have been a total disaster for me if I had allowed it, I could have stayed home and not let anyone know that I was shooting at a low level. I could have never mentioned it here on archery talk and gotten bashed, I could have totally not attended the two league nights with jason where I got my butt kicked over and over. I signed up first for the iowa pro am and Jason wasn't even sure if he wanted to go and Donnie and I talked him into going and he won, then we talked him into going to lancasters and he totally smoked it and won. 

During all of this I have done nothing but show up and execute smooth shots, last night was the first time all winter that I actually allowed myself to actually show up and shoot to win. That doesn't mean I haven't won this winter because I did win about 4 of the league nights and I won a indoor tournament in kc and my first 3d tournament this year, but at none of those was I shooting to win. I only executed smooth shots. Last night I actually allowed myself because I feel like I have earned the right to actually shoot to win. That decision was a good one and I shot the first half of the vegas round getting 14 out of the 15 baby x's and it felt freaking awesome to actually step up there and compete for real. 

My advice to you is to take a step back and let go of all of your scoring asperations, just enjoy your time shooting alone and execute smooth shots where your release is not tied to your aiming. then once you become proficient at this when alone you can shoot with other people weather it is on a shooting line or competition but when you go you are only there to enjoy shooting smooth executions. Once you become proficient at that you can earn the right to show up with desire to win but that is something down the road.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinsker said:


> Remember that dramatic reduction of addictive agents like caffeine and nicotine can cause withdrawal symptoms which may exacerbate your problem. It's best to slowly decrease the use of those products to give your body a chance to slowly get used to the change.


You are absolutely right and I don't have hurry to anywhere.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Padgett said:


> This whole indoor season could have been a total disaster for me if I had allowed it, I could have stayed home and not let anyone know that I was shooting at a low level. I could have never mentioned it here on archery talk and gotten bashed, I could have totally not attended the two league nights with jason where I got my butt kicked over and over. I signed up first for the iowa pro am and Jason wasn't even sure if he wanted to go and Donnie and I talked him into going and he won, then we talked him into going to lancasters and he totally smoked it and won.
> 
> During all of this I have done nothing but show up and execute smooth shots, last night was the first time all winter that I actually allowed myself to actually show up and shoot to win. That doesn't mean I haven't won this winter because I did win about 4 of the league nights and I won a indoor tournament in kc and my first 3d tournament this year, but at none of those was I shooting to win. I only executed smooth shots. Last night I actually allowed myself because I feel like I have earned the right to actually shoot to win. That decision was a good one and I shot the first half of the vegas round getting 14 out of the 15 baby x's and it felt freaking awesome to actually step up there and compete for real.
> 
> My advice to you is to take a step back and let go of all of your scoring asperations, just enjoy your time shooting alone and execute smooth shots where your release is not tied to your aiming. then once you become proficient at this when alone you can shoot with other people weather it is on a shooting line or competition but when you go you are only there to enjoy shooting smooth executions. Once you become proficient at that you can earn the right to show up with desire to win but that is something down the road.


I know exactly what you are talking and your story sounds familiar. During last two years I have had hard times in training range or competitions when some guy have commented that I have shot eight or have had visible shaking. Earlier I could not care less about any stupid comments because I knew that I was shooting pretty good anyway. Somehow I get much more sensitive after my results started to go down and I knew that there was problems in my shooting. Does not do any good to your self-belief if you have TP or some other problems with your archery... I have no idea how some people can be so stupid that they will comment results to guy in next line:angry: I have never had even idea how some other archer is doing in next line because there is enough to take care of my own.

Fortunately I have real good shooting buddies, some of those are pro staff archers and some amateurs like me. They have helped me a lot and never ever throw any negative comments because they know how close I have been for selling my archery gears.

Your advice is really good and I have speculated it as well, I will take that step back and let go all scoring. Turning hinge release half moon was first step, now I just raise bow and try to feel that smooth feeling. There will be no hurry and small steps are good for healing.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Do you try shooting left hand


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

redman said:


> Do you try shooting left hand


Never tried, but need to try with friends lefty bow. I feel to be so right handed that could be interesting


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

rajahmar said:


> Never tried, but need to try with friends lefty bow. I feel to be so right handed that could be interesting


With Redman's recommendation I tried left hand with Mathews apex and feel was indescribable, wow! No shakes at all and I was really able to relax and watch pin moving in target, took probably minute before I put bow down because the feeling was just too nice :teeth: Did not even remember that it was so sweet feeling:smile:


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Doctor told me it is focal dystonia. Musician Billy Mclaughin has it in his right hand and he learned how to play guitar with his left hand.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

redman said:


> Doctor told me it is focal dystonia. Musician Billy Mclaughin has it in his right hand and he learned how to play guitar with his left hand.


This is absolutely interesting, first time for three years I got that feeling back! It was really good feeling just to see how pin was floating without any kinds of legs shakes, there was not either any TP feelings at all. Pin was just floating over target, great! Thanks to redman for that!!

However, this makes me think once again because switching lefty feels so far idea at the moment. Unfortunately even I have read a lot from TP I cannot say I know what it really means or does this means that I have focal dystonia, which I have not ever heard earlier. This morning was much better anyway, shakes where much smaller, could it link to that positive feeling on yesterday or not, just don't know. Well, I will discuss about it with doctor and continue building slowly my archery again.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I do not believe this is dystonia, it is more likely an essential tremor. Mine only shows up when I shoot a bow right handed. My condition varies in intensity making it very insidious. I would do something like change my DL and it would seem to go away for a short time, only to return. I fought it for 6-7 years before switching to lefty. Do a search on threads I have started in the General Forum as there was some pretty lengthy threads on this problem. I met redman at the nationals in 2009 and suggested he try LH shooting after noticing he had what I have. Frank Pearson also developed this problem and is now shooting LH. 

Is it possible for you to post a video of this on YouTube?


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

EPLC said:


> I do not believe this is dystonia, it is more likely an essential tremor. Mine only shows up when I shoot a bow right handed. My condition varies in intensity making it very insidious. I would do something like change my DL and it would seem to go away for a short time, only to return. I fought it for 6-7 years before switching to lefty. Do a search on threads I have started in the General Forum as there was some pretty lengthy threads on this problem. I met redman at the nationals in 2009 and suggested he try LH shooting after noticing he had what I have. Frank Pearson also developed this problem and is now shooting LH.
> 
> Is it possible for you to post a video of this on YouTube?


Thanks EPLC! Good to have information from guys who know what kinds of problem I'm trying to tell and we can exclusive something away. Need to say also that it's super that you have helped another archer to walk away with it! 

At the moment I don't think that I have video which shows problem but I can do it and let you know when it's ready.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

rajahmar, please seek input from your physician before self-diagnosing what may be going on based on the posts of others. It may be a similar issue, or it may be something entirely different and not ruling out the medical end of the problem through a qualified medical professional may do you harm in the long run.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

montigre said:


> rajahmar, please seek input from your physician before self-diagnosing what may be going on based on the posts of others. It may be a similar issue, or it may be something entirely different and not ruling out the medical end of the problem through a qualified medical professional may do you harm in the long run.


Yes, I will ask doctor's opinion before doing any kinds of future plans with my shooting and agree with you that I really don't want any harm in the long run. Originally I asked this from AT because I was totally lost what was going on and would like to heard if someone else has seen legs shaking during full draw.

-Markku


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Here is a link to YouTube video:
https://youtu.be/zPCKahTXtUA

I was aiming to blank wall without any thought to shoot an you should easily see shaking from quiver and arrows. Unfortunately I was aiming a bit low...


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

I saw a definite ginch from TP at the end. Doesn't explain before that


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

rajahmar said:


> Here is a link to YouTube video:
> https://youtu.be/zPCKahTXtUA
> 
> I was aiming to blank wall without any thought to shoot an you should easily see shaking from quiver and arrows. Unfortunately I was aiming a bit low...


I'm picking up on something that "may" be a contributing factor. While this does look like a form of essential tremor, I also see that your DL may be too short and forcing your weight distribution to be front loaded. I doubt very much that you have the weight equally distributed on both feet as you look to be leaning forward. If the most of the weight is on the front foot the back foot may be floating a bit and therefore contributing to the problem. That said, if minor tweaks such as this do not provide a lasting solution, try switching to lefty as suggested for a while and see if that solves the problem. If it is an essential tremor switching will most likely solve it for you. (and BTW, doctors do not have a solution for this problem).


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know I have a drill that for a guy like you could be a huge thing to experience, it is going to feel awesome and so good that you will be inclined to just do it all the time but that is not the point of the drill as a final product, it is to let you experience freedom possibly for the first time. 

Rhythm Shooting:

1. So what you are going to do is make the decision that it is ok for the bow to fire early or on time or a little late, in fact you are going to totally miss the x many times especially in the beginning of this drill but as the drill progresses you will really start to shoot strong. So give yourself permission to miss the x early or late.

2. Now, you are going to come to anchor and as the sight pin leaves the blue and is going into the white of the 5-spot target or from red to yellow on a vegas target you are going to start your firing engine. Again you do not care if it goes off right then or a little later, you are going to simply release all cares of when the bow fires and you are going to just enjoy executing smoothly. 

3. Within minutes your body will respond and you will be able to start slightly adjusting things so that you are still starting the execution as the pin enters the white but you execution will allow you to start hitting the x and this is when the drill becomes something special because the fear of when to start is no longer something present because it is ok to fire accidentally and miss because you started the engine so early. 

I can not tell you how much I enjoy doing this drill, anytime I have a shooter I am coaching I will fore sure shoot right along with them during this drill because it just brings back memories of when I was learning things myself and I always get something out of doing it. 

So many of us get scared to do anything until the pin is perfect, that mentality is what creates problems and this little drill is something that can break things up and open a new door to you.


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## Get Bucked (Jul 11, 2010)

If you take your sight and peep off do you still shake? Do you shake if using a wrist release?


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

EPLC said:


> I'm picking up on something that "may" be a contributing factor. While this does look like a form of essential tremor, I also see that your DL may be too short and forcing your weight distribution to be front loaded. I doubt very much that you have the weight equally distributed on both feet as you look to be leaning forward. If the most of the weight is on the front foot the back foot may be floating a bit and therefore contributing to the problem. That said, if minor tweaks such as this do not provide a lasting solution, try switching to lefty as suggested for a while and see if that solves the problem. If it is an essential tremor switching will most likely solve it for you. (and BTW, doctors do not have a solution for this problem).


Thanks EPLC, agree with your DL notice. During weekend my friend spotted that string was not touching my nose all time during aiming (more like on/off contact). I like to use that as anchor point and have not noticed that before. Tried a bit longer DL and that feels better. 

Have found a lot of ideas so far which are making me much more happier with my archery again:

Definitely seems that I have TP symptoms once again and will need to solve those. However, feel confident that I will tackle it. Decreasing nicotine and caffeine is good for shooting (surprise;-) However, my biggest finding so far is that I have been guilty for drawing fast hinge release mainly with thumb and index finger. Right after I read some of Padgett's posts and changed hinge much more slower and started to draw equally with all fingers my legs shaking almost gone away. I actually did not believe that feeling and tried drawing a bow about five times before believed that my legs were not shaking as much like earlier. Now I don't need to worry about index finger at all and my hand is much more relaxed during draw.

At the moment I'm enjoying even blank baling or doing some other drills because shaking seems if not stopped completely least going away all the time. Now I'm taking small steps one at the time but seems that my battle is turning better direction.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Padgett said:


> You know I have a drill that for a guy like you could be a huge thing to experience, it is going to feel awesome and so good that you will be inclined to just do it all the time but that is not the point of the drill as a final product, it is to let you experience freedom possibly for the first time.
> 
> Rhythm Shooting:
> 
> ...


Thank you Padgett, this seems exactly drill what I need! Will add it to my drill list right away:wink:


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Get Bucked said:


> If you take your sight and peep off do you still shake? Do you shake if using a wrist release?


Yes, earlier I tried without peep and sight and legs shaking were still there. Also wrist release did not change that even there were no intention to even shoot. Now I have founded that much slower hinge and relaxed draw hand might be the key for my legs shaking.


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## cbmac (May 24, 2006)

Couple of observations - you are holding for about 20 seconds. Are you breathing? 
I'm not on board with the essential tremor suggestion - this tends to be familial, affects the hands and arms most commonly/legs least common area, and is generally a much finer (a higher frequency) tremor than the arrow motion I see in the video. You are getting bad medical advice in this thread.

pm on the way.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

rajahmar said:


> Yes, earlier I tried without peep and sight and legs shaking were still there. Also wrist release did not change that even there were no intention to even shoot. Now I have founded that much slower hinge and relaxed draw hand might be the key for my legs shaking.


You have some kind of involuntary motion going on. You should see a doctor to rule out anything serious. That said, involuntary movement (read tremor) is common enough in archery that I have run into at least 5 or 6 cases not including my own issue. All were similar but not exactly the same, ranging from slight to severe. All seem to generate a rhythmic rocking like motion. While many that I have seen included the upper body only, mine at its worst generated everything from the hips upward. If I can find a low poundage RH bow I'll post up an example (me)...


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

EPLC said:


> You have some kind of involuntary motion going on. You should see a doctor to rule out anything serious. That said, involuntary movement (read tremor) is common enough in archery that I have run into at least 5 or 6 cases not including my own issue. All were similar but not exactly the same, ranging from slight to severe. All seem to generate a rhythmic rocking like motion. While many that I have seen included the upper body only, mine at its worst generated everything from the hips upward. If I can find a low poundage RH bow I'll post up an example (me)...


Yes, I will go to medical check just to heard what doctor says. It would be nice to see and compare your RH shooting if I could found something familiar. At the moment I have strong feeling that my shooting is going to better direction with new technique and drills.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Hey, I looked back through the thread and I saw many different things being discussed. I was wondering if you ever did get a chance to do some rhythm shooting in that little drill that I wrote up.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Padgett said:


> Hey, I looked back through the thread and I saw many different things being discussed. I was wondering if you ever did get a chance to do some rhythm shooting in that little drill that I wrote up.


Really liked it the drill! I added that to my drill list and have done that regularly because it feels to break effectively my bad habit to do anything until the pin is perfect. This drill seems to decrease shaking when starting my firing engine and it's relaxed feeling because there is no need to worry about X itself. Noticed once again that human mind is interesting, after a few minutes after I started this drill I could tell the difference. Definitely dig it and will continue doing that later on.


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## rajahmar (Jun 24, 2011)

Now I'm sure and want to update this thread and tell to everybody that I have beat that ugly TP which was giving hard times to me over three years:guitarist2::set1_rolf2::cheers: 

My shaking at full draw did not have anything to do with health or so... ...it was completely TP and I was really close to stop doing archery because it was not fun at all. However, things have changed during year and once again I'm enjoying archery again. It is really great feeling when you can aim and just watch float and arrow leaves from the bow without any kinds of problems at all.

- For me blank bailing did not help at all.
- My hinge was way too hot earlier
- The key was go so close that my mind knew that I could not miss from big target (which was really close, stabilizer almost hit the target) and another big thing was to set hinge release so cold that my mind knew that there is no way to fire it. 
- After that I was able just to watch target through my scope. Slowly I moved back one meter at the time and adjusted hinge a bit hotter. 
- Some point I started training my firing engine and trained it a lot without caring at all where my arrows went.

It took really long before I was at 18m/20 yards line but now I'm back and shooting feels really good at the moment. My findings are that you can really get over TP, it just takes time and YOU need to find suitable training methods for yourself.

Tried today first time NFAA 5-spot. Did not care about scoring yet but wanted some reference to see my progress later on. Anyway did I say that shooting is enjoyable once again even I dont get all arrows to same hole:set1_rolf2:


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## jslane47 (Jun 15, 2013)

Glad it's fun again! TP can do crazy things for sure. And crazy shaking is certainly not out of the realm. I just re-read this thread after a year. I found going back to my hunting bow/wrist strap release helped a ton. Maybe a hinge yields the best results for the best archers, but for me [a decent archer] using some sort of trigger (thumb for target and wrist strap for hunting) keeps the TP away, and the fun in play...


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I remember when I was very involved in this thread, I had a strong feeling that you could really enjoy your shooting. Congrats on making some big steps in your shooting and it will keep getting better.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

rajahmar said:


> Long story short:
> I have been active compound shooter about five years now. Problems with my shooting started about three years ago when I notice that I was holding pin low and doing "drive by shooting". It took almost one year confess to myself that I might have target panic. After that I have changed from thumb to hinge release, read idiot proof archery and core archery books and those helped a lot. So I have used hinge releases more than two years now and not doing that anymore.
> 
> Everything was ok for some time but almost right after I thought that TP is over, I started to notice that my legs were shaking a lot. Not every time and mainly in competitions when I'm getting nervous. Other hand, shaking can also happen when I'm going to my garage and shoot a few arrows (and that situation I'm definitely not nervous ;-) Currently shooting with Hoyt pro comp elite xl, but have got same kinds of shakes with Mathews kids bow, genesis (so should not be over bowed).
> ...


You have received some good advice and ideas, so I won't repeat those. What i will say is that shaking, for whatever reason, is just like any other oscillation. To damp that oscillation you have to either eliminate the driving force or change the balance of forces, (since you can't change the mass). That means finding where you have tension that can be reduced or increased on one side of the oscillating structure. I would go back to the basics of the biomechanics of the shot cycle. The most important principle is finding the body positions that support the shot with the least effort, utilizing the skeletal support as much as possible. Then applying muscle effort minimally to execute the motion. At some point you have excessive tension on an opposing muscle group. You are looking for what you can get for free from the system. 

My other thought is much simpler. The shot of whiskey (or in my case scotch) can't hurt. It can have a damping effect on the psychological factor that many of us suffer from, brain f-ing yourself.


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