# Shoulder alignment



## Ky*Bowhunter (Aug 18, 2013)

Ive had a few thoughts over the past few days and got to thinking about shoulder alignment and how it related to dyanamic tension. What are everyones thought on this. Seems to me like when the front shoulder closes more it allows more bone to bone contact and an overall increase of tension. Also alows for alot more push toward the target. Do you shoot with a more open or closed front shoulder and whats your reason for doing so?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2277794&highlight=bow+shoulder


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Lots of good information on Montigre's link.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> Ive had a few thoughts over the past few days and got to thinking about shoulder alignment and how it related to dyanamic tension. What are everyones thought on this. Seems to me like when the front shoulder closes more it allows more bone to bone contact and an overall increase of tension. Also alows for alot more push toward the target. Do you shoot with a more open or closed front shoulder and whats your reason for doing so?






BEFORE



AFTER



Several options.

Try and see what gives YOU a more stable foundation.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Do not blindly integrate recurve form into compound...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> Ive had a few thoughts over the past few days and got to thinking about shoulder alignment and how it related to dyanamic tension. What are everyones thought on this. Seems to me like when the front shoulder closes more it allows more bone to bone contact and an overall increase of tension. Also alows for alot more push toward the target. Do you shoot with a more open or closed front shoulder and whats your reason for doing so?


So,
here is another option for you to study.

TWIST on purpose.

Feet are in the "oblique" stance...not neutral, not closed, not open,
but called "oblique" by some.

The hips are most DEFINITELY not parallel to the shoulders.

HIPS for this right handed shooter are rotated, ON PURPOSE, 
counter-clockwise,
anti-clockwise

to create a TWISTing force,
through the core muscles...think CORK-SCREW.

So, the left hip, the alignment of the pelvis
is say slightly NORTHWEST from right hip joint to left hip joint.

Then,
we TORQUE the shoulders
so the shoulders are pointed slightly NORTHEAST,
from right shoulder joint to left shoulder joint.

The "dynamic tension" is a cross-body stretch across the core muscles.

WHY TORQUE the two shoulders to align the two shoulders NORTH EAST?
when the arrow is pointed DUE NORTH?

Cuz,
the shoulders and the arrow cannot occupy the same space
and
cuz we want a TRIANGLE formation (for this style).



RIGHT shoulder to LEFT shoulder to LEFT elbow to LEFT Wrist...all ONE unbroken line.

IF you are flexible enough to get into this position,
IF you are able to maintain this position,
your shooting foundation will be VERY stable.

*IF you have bad shoulders,
do not even THINK about trying this manuever.*


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## Ford1978 (Mar 18, 2013)

And why not. You'd be amazed at just how similar the shooting forms are. And how much readily translates from compound to recurve.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Ford1978 said:


> And why not. You'd be amazed at just how similar the shooting forms are. And how much readily translates from compound to recurve.


I agree, the only thing different between my recurve and compound is my release/string side hand.
with my recurve I shoot fingers and my hand is palm toward my face with fingers on the string.
with my compound and release aid. it's palm away from my face and down about 45 degrees. 
I think everything else is the same/or so close I can't tell the difference.
I guess I am just to dumb to know you can't shoot a compound with the NTS System.. :noidea:

I draw, transfer, hold, and expand, somewhere along the line I aim, but I'm not sure where I start aim. so I don't talk about it.
Ron w just loves it when I use those terms... :wink:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Look at these two archers: 
one has shoulders off to the left of the target line and his release side elbow is to the right of the arrow line.
the other has his shoulders more parallel to the target line and his release elbow is behind and maybe even to the left of the arrow line .
I put my shoulders and stance to where I can hold the steadiest.( my shoulders are like Sebastian's. )


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

IMHO, it is very important to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. "It just feels right" may not be a good enough answer if I want to shoot to the best of my abilities. Creating torque through the core to create a firmer shooting foundation as shown by N&B and also Bees is one approach. Opposing forces, or muscles, create stability. Finding the most balanced position from which to shoot is another popular approach. Allows lots of relaxed muscles. Feels good. But, is it the most stable position from which to shoot. Some awfully good shooters in each camp. I just wish that I was one of them.


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## Ford1978 (Mar 18, 2013)

If your draw length is set up correctly, you should form a triangle as shown in the top compound shooter. This allows you to keep your bow arm clear, and gives you room to physically execute your shot. If your draw length is long, you end up more "in line" with your target, and feeling stretched. This also constricts the range of motion for proper shot execution.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Ford1978 said:


> If your draw length is set up correctly, you should form a triangle as shown in the top compound shooter. This allows you to keep your bow arm clear, and gives you room to physically execute your shot. If your draw length is long, you end up more "in line" with your target, and feeling stretched. This also constricts the range of motion for proper shot execution.


oh really??? 
My bow is set to 28 inches AMO draw length and has been that way for 8 years.
I can shoot out of either position and not have to change the bows draw length.
the only thing that changes is where my hand is on my face.
I don't have any issues with string clearance from either position.
I am more stable with the more in line alignment.. 
and I have enough range of motion to accommodate either position. 

I think you guys make this a lot harder than it actually is..


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Personal opinion here but the very best are not perfectly aligned and totally balanced the 12 to 16 ounces of side bar weight is to create natural resistance. If you are totally balanced and relaxed at anchor it leads to a weak shot a little tension and a strong shot are the difference between best amateurs and the best pro's most pro's shoot s stronger shot. I know this is a generalization but an observation. The best field pro's have resistance built into the balance of their rig. Jessie Broadwater Dave Cousins Reo Wilde - bar out to the side to give them something to work against. I recently gave it a TRU. Felt aquardvbut had a significant impact on little x at 20 yards.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Joe Schnur said:


> Personal opinion here but the very best are not perfectly aligned and totally balanced the 12 to 16 ounces of side bar weight is to create natural resistance. If you are totally balanced and relaxed at anchor it leads to a weak shot a little tension and a strong shot are the difference between best amateurs and the best pro's most pro's shoot s stronger shot. I know this is a generalization but an observation. The best field pro's have resistance built into the balance of their rig. Jessie Broadwater Dave Cousins Reo Wilde - bar out to the side to give them something to work against. I recently gave it a TRU. Felt aquardvbut had a significant impact on little x at 20 yards.


You're talking resistance created between the bow and bow hand. I agree that that helps with stability of the pin. The OP has raised the issue about the rest of the body. Shoulders closely aligned with the target line with feet and hips in the open or oblique position creates resistance in the body's core, again helping with a stable foundation from which to shoot.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

pwyrick said:


> You're talking resistance created between the bow and bow hand. I agree that that helps with stability of the pin. The OP has raised the issue about the rest of the body. Shoulders closely aligned with the target line with feet and hips in the open or oblique position creates resistance in the body's core, again helping with a stable foundation from which to shoot.


Very true and I have to add that some of these position changes are *very* small and not really visible to someone looking at the shooter. Don't want people reading this to start approaching the shooting line looking like a sumo wrestler.... Often a change of millimeters in body alignment will produce the dynamic effect that is being sought. Like winding a spring.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

montigre said:


> very true and i have to add that some of these position changes are *very* small and not really visible to someone looking at the shooter. Don't want people reading this to start approaching the shooting line looking like a sumo wrestler.... Often a change of millimeters in body alignment will produce the dynamic effect that is being sought. Like winding a spring.


x2! And the truth be told, some of us approach everything looking like a sumo wrestler. But that has nothing to do with my shoulder alignment. LOL.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Nuts&Bolts, the way the form is being taught with the twist from lower to upper body to add that resistance into the shot, there's more to that correct? Not just a place your feet at this angle for everyone type deal, I assume. Reason I am asking is because I'm trying to break that down in my head and decipher how to reach an optimal position, or if I have gotten the basics and reached my optimal position already. 

Pretty much anyone will have their feet with an open stance to some degree. This will cause a twist in lower to upper body. I have experimented over the years with more and less open stance, and have found I shoot best with my left foot's toes right at the ball of my foot on my right foot. I have a slight twist from bottom to top, but it aligns my body to stay on target through my execution. 

From my understandings that would acheive what is being taught with the body resistance, but customized or optimized for my body structure and shot. 

Another part of this I would think would be draw length. So that's another reason I wanted to raise the question up. Your draw length being optimal will help you with your float. Changing the alignment of the body, that will move the shoulders and change the spread for draw length and loop length/anchor point. 

So, with that said and asking the question above, are they being taught a certain angle to place their feet at and then adjusting and fine tuning draw length from there?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm not N&B, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of times... That being said, when I was given my level 3 instruction, the draw that was emphasized (especially for compound shooters) was to do your hook up to the bow slightly to the left of the target (for a right-handed archer) and as you raise the bow, draw, and come into anchor, you slightly coil your your entire body (from your legs through your shoulders) clock-wise so that when full draw is reached, you're perfectly aligned with the center of the target. This produces an inverted J-like feeling to the drawing process. When the shot is then executed through expansion, the bow arm has a greater tendency to go directly forward to the target while the release arm follows it's arc toward the shooter's back leaving no residual forces to "pull" the arrow off target. 

The recommended stance for compound shooters was slightly open (since compound shooters rarely shoot "inside the bow"), but there was no emphasis placed on stance angles; just comfort, repeatability, and stability through the entire draw cycle. If someone got a little wobbly while coming through draw to anchor, then their stance was either opened or closed a little until they could remain over their hips throughout their shot.

Again these movements to the left are very, very small, but have a profound result at execution--I have seen people on the line who have taken this to the extreme and actually interfere with the shooter to their left by initially setting up so far left. When done correctly, if someone was watching you shoot, they would very likely not be able to tell you were setting up slightly to the left, the movement is so small.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

RCR_III said:


> Nuts&Bolts, the way the form is being taught with the twist from lower to upper body to add that resistance into the shot, there's more to that correct? Not just a place your feet at this angle for everyone type deal, I assume. Reason I am asking is because I'm trying to break that down in my head and decipher how to reach an optimal position, or if I have gotten the basics and reached my optimal position already.
> 
> Pretty much anyone will have their feet with an open stance to some degree. This will cause a twist in lower to upper body. I have experimented over the years with more and less open stance, and have found I shoot best with my left foot's toes right at the ball of my foot on my right foot. I have a slight twist from bottom to top, but it aligns my body to stay on target through my execution.
> 
> ...


The twist through the core is something from the NTS system,
which is part of the Olympic recurve world. Started as the Biomechanically Efficient Shooting Technique = B.E.S.T. system,
and now it is called the NTS system or National Training System.

Just throwing it out there,
since the OP is asking about shoulder alignment.

So,
the "twist" through the core is NOT only shoulder alignment,
the "twist" through the core is also not just FEET or TIPS of shoes alignment.

The critical puzzle piece, is where is the alignment through both hip joints?

I don't teach NTS,
however, I have been in the medical device world,
specifically experimental discs for the neck and lower back

so, you could say I've been in the biomechanics world for a little while.

Through my own research, for a RIGHT handed shooter,
the alignment of the left hip joint, in relation to the left ankle...

these two spatial positions (left hip and left ankle)
and any cross body torque/dynamic tension/twisting forces through the lower/mid abdomen...

this has a HUGE effect on shoulders alignment
which means,
it's the difference between STUFFING your arrows inside the x-ring at 18 meters

or
MISSING wide at 9-o'clock
or MISSING wide at 3-o'clock.

SO,
just to say that the TRIANGLE formation is the way to go,
is a WAY over-simplification.

For EACH shooter,
the results, the mileage will vary.

TEST
EXPERIMENT
VERIFY

I am aware of what your TRUE shooting potential might be,
so

ankles and hip joints and shoulder alignment
is something you need to experiment with
and
find what works BEST for you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

RCR_III said:


> Nuts&Bolts, the way the form is being taught with the twist from lower to upper body to add that resistance into the shot, there's more to that correct? Not just a place your feet at this angle for everyone type deal, I assume. Reason I am asking is because I'm trying to break that down in my head and decipher how to reach an optimal position, or if I have gotten the basics and reached my optimal position already.
> 
> Pretty much anyone will have their feet with an open stance to some degree. This will cause a twist in lower to upper body. I have experimented over the years with more and less open stance, and have found I shoot best with my left foot's toes right at the ball of my foot on my right foot. I have a slight twist from bottom to top, but it aligns my body to stay on target through my execution.
> 
> ...


Another aspect...

is look into the lordosis / kyphosis aspects of the NTS system.

Then,
there is the "locking the knees" for a brief period of time.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

RCR_III said:


> Pretty much anyone will have their feet with an open stance to some degree. This will cause a twist in lower to upper body. I have experimented over the years with more and less open stance, and have found I shoot best with my left foot's toes right at the ball of my foot on my right foot. I have a slight twist from bottom to top, but it aligns my body to stay on target through my execution.
> 
> From my understandings that would acheive what is being taught with the body resistance, but customized or optimized for my body structure and shot.


Not necessarily.

Sometimes, a shooter may achieve better results with a neutral or closed stance.

Look up the writings of Vittorio Frangelli. Very Very smart guy.

You have barrel chest shooters.
You have shallow chest shooters...the tall, thin type.
Then, you gotta look at range of motion issues, at the various points of the body.

Not all archers have full range of motion.

I worked with one fella, very highly skilled field archer.
Herniated discs, lumbar region. For rather obvious reasons, the normal rules do not apply.

The solution for him, was a DIY orthotic, where I raised one heel, 3-4 mm. This compensated for a pelvic tilt,
and restored his "balance"..cuz, nearly every sport,
you start your analysis at 

da feet...and work your way up.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

RCR_III said:


> From my understandings that would acheive what is being taught with the body resistance, but customized or optimized for my body structure and shot.
> 
> Another part of this I would think would be draw length. So that's another reason I wanted to raise the question up. Your draw length being optimal will help you with your float. Changing the alignment of the body, that will move the shoulders and change the spread for draw length and loop length/anchor point.
> 
> So, with that said and asking the question above, are they being taught a certain angle to place their feet at and then adjusting and fine tuning draw length from there?


I refuse to be part of the NTS program...I go my own way,
conduct my own biomechanical studies, and have developed my own custom systems,
tailored for each shooter.

You are correct.

The system, ANY system, has to be modified for each shooter,
especially when you have an "elite" shooter undergoing recovery, which affects a range of motion issue.

So,
the NTS program, all the various levels and classes, will teach the concepts
and it is up to the individual coaches to learn how to apply the biomechanical concepts
to each of the coach's respective shooters.

So,
when you try to apply biomechanics, 
and adjust various alignments...there will most DEFINITELY, an effect
on what I call TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE...

where your pivot point of the grip
to the tip of your release elbow
...what I call TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE

will grow longer or shrink shorter

depending on HOW you do your alignment of the ankles,
in relation to the hip joints alignment
in relation to the shoulders alignment...

whether you try cross body torque ON PURPOSE
or
you use a bit less cross body torque
or
you use ZERO cross body torque, cuz the shooter is physically unable to do this.

HINT

the LEFT hip joint,
directly above the left ankle...(lower body like a flat sheet of plywood..from hips down to knees down to ankles)

whether you shoot with your lower body FLAT like a sheet of plywood

or
you choose to TORQUE from the ankles to the hips to the shoulders...(like a twisted 2x4)

SEE which system works BETTER for you.

The results will open your eyes.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

RCR_III said:


> So, with that said and asking the question above, are they being taught a certain angle to place their feet at and then adjusting and fine tuning draw length from there?



ONCE you decide if you want to shoot like a flat sheet of plywood (hips joints down to knees down to ankles)

or

you decide if you want to torque, with the cross body dynamic tension style (more NTS-ish)

work on fine tuning your draw length
to OPTIMIZE your groups size

work your draw length setting on the bow AT LEAST to the 1/4-inch (tweak cables)
1/4-inch LONGER than spec
1/4-inch SHORTER than spec

and keep the same shooting posture,
and confirm with VIDEO and freeze frame analysis.

For YOU,
since I know what you are capable of doing...

I would suggest you experiment with the shooting posture you like to work with
and
tune your draw length down to the 1/8th inch LONGER
or
tune your draw length down to the 1/8th inch SHORTER.

This means,
the bow arm elbow bend is EXACTLY the same as always

this means,
that nock is on the EXACT same spot as always

and the REAL effect of the 1/8th LONGER or 1/8th SHORTER bow draw length setting

is to FORCE a SLIGHT upper body BACKWARDS lean angle
or
is to FORCE a SLIGHT upper body FORWARDS lean angle...

and what this REALLY DOES
is to FORCE a compass needle direction alignment change
on your RELEASE side forearm.

You wanted to discuss biomechanics,
well,
it's all force vectors,
compass needle directions...

OUTside-IN alignments
INside-OUT alignments

the NTS folks like to talk LAN2
and CIRCULAR movements.

ONE example of the cross body torque system.





Whatever posture experiments you do...

I highly recommend you continue with your experiments...

for a RIGHT handed shooter,
if what you do with your LOWER body alignment (ankles, knees, hips)
and 
if what you do with your SHOULDERS alignment..

if the SHOULDERS rotate MORE and MORE and MORE clockwise (right handed shooter)

as you have your SHOULDERS going from an open alignment, to a neutral parallel to the arrow alignment to a closed alignment

ASSUMING your keep the anchor and the nock EXACTLY on the same spot on your HEAD...

yes,
the bow draw length must GROW longer.

Now,
if you go from an OPEN shoulders alignment,
to a NEUTRAL shoulders alignment,
to a CLOSED shoulders alignment...

and you just MOVE your release hand further and further and further back on your head..
or you just MOVE your release hand farther and farther and farther forwards on your head...

for each shooting posture alignment change

well,
this is a different system
that what I teach.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I thought this was Intermediate-Advanced Competition Archery forum, not Coaches Corner forum.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Ok back to the op's original question. Shoulders just open enough to not hit arm with string. Mostly none on bone struggle with up and down alignment shoulder wants to creep up. I try not to push forward as that becomes a variable for me how much shot to shot. I am trying to minimize variables.


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