# Stabilizer question



## drstack (Feb 9, 2011)

Good Morning Jim;

New leftover Easton aluminum/carbon long rods (both the A/C/E and the X-10 models) can still be found on the 'Bay, and seem to being priced in the range you are looking for. You can also check the other non-FITA Classified here on AT if you don't mind purchasing used. If you 'drill down' in that Classified, there is a sub-folder specific to sights and stabs...

r/
Dave


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Alternative Archery Supply is selling Win and Win HMC Plus long stabilizers for just $95. They are $140 at Lancaster Archery Supply.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Do not buy the 30" version.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/w-w-sebastian-flute-ultimate-carbon-stabilizer.html

If the price isn't to steep, you can't go wrong with this
Many JOAD shooters have this and it is nothing short of a quality stab


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## TREESTANDSNYPER (Jan 17, 2003)

W&W HMC Plus


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## yugami (Dec 10, 2013)

I have a used 26" X7 you can get off me cheap msg me if you want it.


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

Fivics CEX5 of you want world record class


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> Do not buy the 30" version.


Can you elaborate a little more? Seems in a lot of your posts you tend to be shy of details then once the info gets dragged out you have good reasoning for your point of view. Not sure if you do it on purpose or if you are just normally a taciturn person… 
Thanks
-Jim


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## snazy (Mar 30, 2014)

I comment very rarely here but to the OP, I'd be seriously looking at the stabs made by SteveinAZ on this forum. They look to be well made and archers who have bought them seem to be very happy. I have a long stab already but I feel like I should just buy some from him before he decides to stop.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello
For me.
I have a wall of high dollar stabilizers hanging up. Gathered up over the years and tried. In different lengths.
I now have a simple piece of 3/4 inch threaded brass rod 5 7/8 inches in length. And weighing 12.10 oz.

That serves my need for front weight to the riser and balance. For my Nilo ILF recurve. And my shoot through compound bow.I have no side bars.
That added weight just in front of my riser. Sets the bow hand grip to my liking and riser vertical balance. [Later


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

JimB1 said:


> Can you elaborate a little more? Seems in a lot of your posts you tend to be shy of details then once the info gets dragged out you have good reasoning for your point of view. Not sure if you do it on purpose or if you are just normally a taciturn person…
> Thanks
> -Jim


Hi JimB1.

Too much information screws up the head and distracts us from the fun of destroying the bale slowly. But, since you asked......
I was able to set the bows without any problems with 26" and 28" HMC PLUS stabilizers, but somehow the entire system breaks down when a 30" is attached, to the point that it made no sense whatsoever. The limb flutter would not die off no matter what I did with the bow. As if to confirm my initial observations, during one of the tuning sessions, I was mistakenly given a 30" (she told me it was 28") and the bow just wouldn't tune. The very moment we changed to a 28" everything was performing as predicted.

A good alternative would be a 30" CEX 2000. Not too sure how the CEX 1900 would perform, but I should find out in a week when I visit Korea. Since you have a budget that fell short, and the HMC PLUS was going at a good price for you, I reckon the only sensible thing would be to tell you which configuration NOT to buy.

I should also tell you this: There is no reason to correlate scores with the amount of limb flutter/vibration, there just isn't enough data from my side to support this. In fact, according to my model, the limbs should flutter, but I have no idea by how much as I have yet to measure it. But from a conservation point of view, energy not efficiently used tend to show up as flutter or vibrations, all else being equal, I do believe a little more speed on the arrows do translate into a certain kind of advantage.

Yeah, so don't buy the 30". I just had this funny feeling you could be looking at one.


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> Hi JimB1.
> 
> Too much information screws up the head and distracts us from the fun of destroying the bale slowly. But, since you asked......
> I was able to set the bows without any problems with 26" and 28" HMC PLUS stabilizers, but somehow the entire system breaks down when a 30" is attached, to the point that it made no sense whatsoever. The limb flutter would not die off no matter what I did with the bow. As if to confirm my initial observations, during one of the tuning sessions, I was mistakenly given a 30" (she told me it was 28") and the bow just wouldn't tune. The very moment we changed to a 28" everything was performing as predicted.
> ...


Yes, I was thinking about somewhere around 28 - 30". It seems like there are no hard, fast rules for choosing a stabilizer. I've seen people say they like shorter with more weight, longer with less weight, some say try to find one similar in length to your draw, all sorts of stuff so I thought 30" was a decent length but it seems your experiments with the HMC plus for whatever reason made it less then ideal. Good to know, if I go that route I'll stick with 28" or less. 
Thanks
-Jim


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## JimB1 (Feb 18, 2013)

So stopped by my local archery shop on the way home, they had the new Easton Contour and A/C Pro stabilizers. They also had a 29" Easton A/C/E for $89 so I picked it up. I didn't see any real difference between the A/C Pro and the A/C/E other then graphics and those even looked similar. They felt the same in hand. I suspect I wouldn't be able to tell the difference on the bow.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions
-Jim


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## Cykachu (Sep 6, 2018)

*Cex 1900*

Hello,

I would like to know your opinion about the CEX 1900. I am considering buying the CEX 1900 system with 30inch long rod. 

Btw, how about a stabilization system HMC 22 with 30inch long rod? Have you any experience with this setup?

Thank you very much in advance.





theminoritydude said:


> Hi JimB1.
> 
> Too much information screws up the head and distracts us from the fun of destroying the bale slowly. But, since you asked......
> I was able to set the bows without any problems with 26" and 28" HMC PLUS stabilizers, but somehow the entire system breaks down when a 30" is attached, to the point that it made no sense whatsoever. The limb flutter would not die off no matter what I did with the bow. As if to confirm my initial observations, during one of the tuning sessions, I was mistakenly given a 30" (she told me it was 28") and the bow just wouldn't tune. The very moment we changed to a 28" everything was performing as predicted.
> ...


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Cykachu said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would like to know your opinion about the CEX 1900. I am considering buying the CEX 1900 system with 30inch long rod.
> 
> ...


You have one post. Ok here goes:

I was busy, sorry for the late reply. Didn't want to break my chain of thought. That damned Vbar is 99% complete. Ok nevermind......

HMC Plus used to the the staple stabilizer for intermediates to elites, but that status now goes to CEX 1900. Its low mass (lower I believe) and superior stiffness means it performs to satisfaction even at 30". After the last round of update (the chrome was peeling off), it now comes with new finish and paintjobs, it is value for money.

HMC22 is like bringing a Desert Eagle to rob a liquor store. It works, but it's a lot of drag. Anyone can make a stiff stabilizer given a large cross section diameter, so staying within a narrow diameter is where the premium models are. If you're looking for some mean stabilizers with good track record, Phoenix 1500D from Fivics is the stabilizer to go to.

But if you're just shooting indoors.....HMC22 should do the job. But notice that no one on the world stage is touching that thing, at least from what I have observed.


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## mseganti (Sep 15, 2017)

I was going to say you might want to get a nice front bar, so if you graduate to sidebars you can have a really nice matching set. I shoot a full bstinger setup 30" front bar with 7 oz with a 4" extension. My sidebars are 12" with 8 oz total, I don't recommend shooting this weight, however if your riser can accept it, id throw a counterweight on the back of your riser. 

All you really need in a stabilizer system is rigidity and vibe dampening. Most dampen vibration pretty well and take out a lot of hand shock.

Regarding length I have ~28.25" draw but i'm still shooting ~35" up front. Sorry for the late reply, the front bar you got should be pretty sweet, but don't be afraid to experiment, my stab system has been changed significantly with weights and angles at least 4 times in the last few months.


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## Cykachu (Sep 6, 2018)

*Re:*



theminoritydude said:


> You have one post. Ok here goes:
> 
> I was busy, sorry for the late reply. Didn't want to break my chain of thought. That damned Vbar is 99% complete. Ok nevermind......
> 
> ...



Thank you guys for responses.

"Experiment" - that exactly is my sticking point . Our bow stores in Slovakia have in stock only basic equipment (like avalon tyro), other stuff are only to order. Similarly, second-hand archery stores don't exist . Every manufacturer praises his own revolutionary product. Many people don't understand the complicated dynamics of shot and vibration problems. So a good advice is the way to go for me.

I found out up to now (please, correct me if I'm wrong):

1. The main function of stabilizing system is to stabilize the shot by adding the mass moments of inertia to the bow. Therefore, the most of mass, created by weights, should be at the end of rods, in order to increase the mass moments of inertia. Therefore, the rods should be as stiff as possible and as light as possible.

2. The most discussed function of the stabilizing system is to provide the most pleasant aftershot feeling in terms of vibration reduction (or killing). The rubber dampers with suitable stiffness between stiff rods and weights should take care of this issue. The rods material damping can help, but "vibration damping" is not the main function of the RODS. 

3. The bow should be balanced at full draw. (where exactly?) At no draw, the center of gravity should be few inches in front of the grip. (how much inches exactly?)

4. This video: (I can´t insert link, but on YouTube is named as "Pro Tip Tuesday with Jake Kaminski and Stabilization Theory") provides an opinion, that the use of a down-angled V-bar is better than a straight one, due to different direction forces exerting on the bow. What's your opinion?

5. The WinWin HMC plus "tower" construction seems to be logic in terms of strength (and weight minimizing). I was surprised that 30inch rod is not OK in terms of dynamic tuning (probably some resonance is excited).

6. FiberBow claims that S3 stabilizers minimize the possibility of resonance due to the continuous variation of the sections. Sounds good. Any opinions or experiences?

7. Which option (for example) is better in terms of dynamic behavior: 28 inch long rod with 6 inch extender, or 30 inch long rod with 4 inch extender? 


So, my aim is to buy at least a long rod and pair of short rods, long lasting value-for-money. I would like to buy the equipment, then play with weight and dampers in order to tune it and then enjoy it for the very long time. My draw length is approx. 29,5 inch. My setup is 70 inch bow, 25 inch riser. My body height is 6ft 1.23in.
Please, could you guys recommend to me, where to start:

A. The length of central stabilizer rod (according to my draw length, a 30inch long rod was recommended to me),
B. The length of side stabilizer rods, 
C. The type of V-Bar
D. Maybe the type and length of extension. 

Thank you in advance again.


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## damiaan (Feb 17, 2014)

1. Correct, but do think about wind drag on the rods when shooting outside. And too stiff is also bad (hmc22 / old easton x10 rods which had a 1" diameter)
2. Correct
3. Roughly 1" from the stabilizer hole. Precise balance point is determined by the movement of the sight during aiming (if sight bobs down all the time, remove weight from the long rod or add to the side bars, and vice versa for up, left and right)
4. Incorrect straight and down angled v-bars function much the same. the down angle puts the center of gravity lower resulting in a larger pendulum effect. this is personal preference
5. Yes the HMC+ is excellent, however not very stiff since the walls are relatively thin
6. There is a resonance point for every object, a damper will eliminate almost all resonance. (I'd recommend fivics or doinker a-bombs)
7. Depends on the weight you intend to put on them and the v-bar rods. 4" is the better option in my opinion

A. 30" should be fine, but consider that a shorter rod is significantly stiffer. in the equations for deflection of a beam the length is to the third power (L³)
B. 12" will complement a 30" rod nicely.
C. Any will do, the adjustable v-bars allow you to experiment much more. (Mybo 3-sixty is best value for money in my opinion)
D. 4" extension. Do not get the doinker suppression mount, it will break on you and is too heavy for an useful extension. 

One more thing to consider is your draw weight, the more you draw the heavier your stabilizer setup can be, but it does not have to be.

You mentioned being Slovak, have you tried asking Mr. Hurban Jr. about this?

I use the following at the moment:
31" longrod + Doinker abomb + 7 ounces
15" side rods + each 7 ounces
adjustable v-bar (mybo 360)
2¼" extension
Drawlength: 31"
Drawweight: 52 lbs.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Cykachu said:


> 1. The main function of stabilizing system is to stabilize the shot by adding the mass moments of inertia to the bow. Therefore, the most of mass, created by weights, should be at the end of rods, in order to increase the mass moments of inertia. Therefore, the rods should be as stiff as possible and as light as possible.


That is the primary goal. Light rods means more weight could be fixed at the ends, within the capacity of the archer to take those weights.



Cykachu said:


> 2. The most discussed function of the stabilizing system is to provide the most pleasant aftershot feeling in terms of vibration reduction (or killing). The rubber dampers with suitable stiffness between stiff rods and weights should take care of this issue. The rods material damping can help, but "vibration damping" is not the main function of the RODS.


I'm curious as to why a lot of emphasis is placed on the "feel" of the stabilizers. Perhaps it is because a large proportion of target archers have yet to figure out the shortcut to damping. Once you are able to differentiate between damping and rotational inertia (funny thing, they aren't even a discussion in the same plane, one is vertical, the other is mostly horizontal), everything becomes really easy to see through, and clear choices can be made.




Cykachu said:


> 3. The bow should be balanced at full draw. (where exactly?) At no draw, the center of gravity should be few inches in front of the grip. (how much inches exactly?)
> 
> 4. This video: (I can´t insert link, but on YouTube is named as "Pro Tip Tuesday with Jake Kaminski and Stabilization Theory") provides an opinion, that the use of a down-angled V-bar is better than a straight one, due to different direction forces exerting on the bow. What's your opinion?


If I recall correctly, Vittorio mentioned once about the rapid reduction in rotational inertia in the horizontal plane as the side rods are moved out of that plane. I do not contest that, I am in agreement. However, I feel it is pertinent that we practice some sort of perspective when dealing with human to hardware interface. Once we change our perspective from a reference frame based on the metrics of the bow (i.e. horizontal/vertical plane as aligned with the bow axes), we arrive at the question of which is the most important reference frame? If we took the horizontal frame as the one that includes the shoulder joint and the wrist, you come up with a range, so I'd prefer to take the center of mass of the side rods, measure it against the center of mass of the entire setup, and measure the loss from there. You'd soon discover that while the loss is there, it can be justified. How? Well, in my personal method of setting up, the center of mass should ideally be very close to the pressure point on the grip, not the arrow axis. This simplifies the subsequent tuning process by eliminating one unknown, which is the kicking up of the bow by way of your hand pushing the bow below its own center of mass. Most setups will result in that point being somewhere between the arrow and the pressure point, and that's where a reclined siderod comes in to help. It relocates some of the mass to a lower location without increasing bow mass. The price is a slight overall reduction in rotational inertia. Best way to do that? 13-15 inch side rods. Looks familiar?



Cykachu said:


> 5. The WinWin HMC plus "tower" construction seems to be logic in terms of strength (and weight minimizing). I was surprised that 30inch rod is not OK in terms of dynamic tuning (probably some resonance is excited).


I've been hanging on to this conspiracy theory for sometime: WW probably designed the rod based on 28" (the most popular length in Korea), then used that profile and extended it to 30".



Cykachu said:


> 6. FiberBow claims that S3 stabilizers minimize the possibility of resonance due to the continuous variation of the sections. Sounds good. Any opinions or experiences?


I'm not sure if we should be discussing resonance in the topic of recurve archery. Resonance is a feedback loop of the output back into the input path with similar frequency, you'd have to look at where the source of the input is. The input is the initial release, its wave travels lengthwise to the long rod, and if it does not get sunk, it bounces right back. On the return path, if the arrow is still on the string, the arrow gets affected. I think that's what the narrative is about. Is the feedback necessarily bad? I don't think so. At this stage we are still not sure what resonance is, if it even takes place, and what it does. So I'd rather not expend any resource to deal with it.

The parameters I am interested in is 1)Is it stiff? 2)Is it light? 3)Is it slim?
Then I let the rubber do its job.



Cykachu said:


> 7. Which option (for example) is better in terms of dynamic behavior: 28 inch long rod with 6 inch extender, or 30 inch long rod with 4 inch extender?


Ah. Extenders. What the hell are they for? Well, in my case, extenders are like spacers. They help stop my side rods from poking into my tummy and messing around with my bowarm. That's the case for most adult setups.

What I do with 6 inch extenders is this: There are some girls with very light (mass) bows and heavy poundage and arrows. I'd like to draw your attention to very tiny South Korean olympian female archers, and points 3) and 4) above, the part about balancing the bow. I wrote a tuning guide, this topic took up a big chunk. It's a little lengthy to describe in detail, but in short, the balance point functions in a way to direct your bow (laterally) to point at the target through the shot. A simple model could be conjured in the mind, that of a see-saw, and two boys, one fat (or big-boned if you're easily offended) and the other thin. In order to balance the see-saw, the fat boy must sit closer to the pivot, and the thin boy must sit further away. One boy is the combined impulse of the poundage on the arrow, the other boy is the mass center of the bow. The pivot is your wrist. ............ I hope I've given you enough to work on. You seem like the intelligent type.




Cykachu said:


> So, my aim is to buy at least a long rod and pair of short rods, long lasting value-for-money. I would like to buy the equipment, then play with weight and dampers in order to tune it and then enjoy it for the very long time. My draw length is approx. 29,5 inch. My setup is 70 inch bow, 25 inch riser. My body height is 6ft 1.23in.
> Please, could you guys recommend to me, where to start:
> 
> A. The length of central stabilizer rod (according to my draw length, a 30inch long rod was recommended to me),
> ...


It's difficult to recommend a whole setup, limited choices, brand loyalty, color preference etc. Just don't buy Cartel.


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