# Help with Vertical Grouping..



## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

Try dropping weight from your front stab, see if that helps.


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## Joe Ryan (Jun 8, 2014)

In all probability. Also, you can be varying back tension. Shot sequence timing, or breathing pattern. Work on your sequence timing without regards to poi. Concentrate on one thing at a time. You can't hit a 5 run homer !


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Take all the weight and stabilizers off your bow. Then creep tune your bow. Do a search if you need more detailed instructions. There are tons of threads on creep tuning. Essentially it ensures that no matter if you pull harder or softer from shot to shot, your cam rotation is optimized so that you don't have the high/low misses. 

Then put the stabs back on with no weight and see how your groups are. Then add the weight back according to your float and group patterns.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

http://rcrchery.wordpress.com/ there's a link for a website I'm putting together with a bunch of topics. Read the Balancing Act entry for you stab set up, the Holding Steady entry for you draw length, the Thumbs Up entry, and the Release Execution entry possibly could help too. 

Also, look at creep tuning the bow as well. It could be varying degrees of pull against the stops on the bow causing this. But, honestly at 30 yards if your groups are looking like this currently, it's probably you. Your form, draw length, techniques. It can be fixed and the groups will shrink. Just start on one thing at a time. I'd say for now check the draw length first and get that squared away. Then after that, set up the stabilizers and then just work from there.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

What is the let-off and/or holding weight of the bow?
I find the less let-off, the more front weight I like on the bow.
Also, be sure there are no contact issues. Do bare shafts give you the same group shape?


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## Dave Schmeltz (May 5, 2014)

The let off is 65%...I haven't done any bare shaft tuning yet...but my fletched arrows are bullet holes on paper


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## Dave Schmeltz (May 5, 2014)

RCR_III said:


> http://rcrchery.wordpress.com/ there's a link for a website I'm putting together with a bunch of topics. Read the Balancing Act entry for you stab set up, the Holding Steady entry for you draw length, the Thumbs Up entry, and the Release Execution entry possibly could help too.
> 
> Also, look at creep tuning the bow as well. It could be varying degrees of pull against the stops on the bow causing this. But, honestly at 30 yards if your groups are looking like this currently, it's probably you. Your form, draw length, techniques. It can be fixed and the groups will shrink. Just start on one thing at a time. I'd say for now check the draw length first and get that squared away. Then after that, set up the stabilizers and then just work from there.


Great wealth of info, and a huge help...thanks!


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

You're welcome. I'm thinking about putting up some pictures on them or even videos. I'm adding new entries in there as often as I have time to sit down and type them up.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Dave Schmeltz said:


> The let off is 65%...I haven't done any bare shaft tuning yet...but my fletched arrows are bullet holes on paper


fletched arrows have correction...try it bare shaft.

every couple ends- fire a couple bare shafts- it will show everything you're doing wrong.


In your case, I'd guess it's slight changes in your grip (thumb heel pressure)...
or
pulling a little different from shot to shot.
or
sight picture issue-- do you look at your arrows you've just shot? If so, this will easily cause fliers (arrows go where we look)


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Dave Schmeltz said:


> My groups are always considerably taller than they are wider as shown in picture.
> 
> At 30 yards the picture shows what 90% of my groupings look like, I have a 30" stab with 7/8oz on front and 10" stab on left with 2.5oz.
> 
> ...


For starters; stop shooting that egg shaped big *ss hole in your bag.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Creep tune, pay attention to shoulders, fix peep height.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't like shooting spots, but test of my arrows is hitting the X ring of a NFAA 5 spot from 30 yards. My last 4 bows would do this without the use of back bars. My front stabilizer has been a 30" Cartel with 1 to 3 ounces on the end. I use a quick disconnect that adds another 2 inches.

Of recent times my back bars have been the Bernie's shaker balls (never looked up the proper name) and a Stinger 10" back bar with 6 oz. on the end.

I think you have some home work to do... Maybe bow, maybe you, maybe both. I'd start with bow fit. Arrows proper and built proper for the finished bow. Bow timing/tuning. Bullet holes through paper are pretty, but don't tell the whole story. I'd suggest short distance French Tuning, 30 yards, or full distance French tuning, 50 yards or as far as your bow will shoot and stay on the target. Once center shot is established with French tuning, try playing with arrow rest height or nocking point height to see if groups can be tightened up. I won't suggest bare shaft tuning, but if you're confident, have at it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> For starters; stop shooting that egg shaped big *ss hole in your bag.


Yes, for God's sake. You can't have good groups with a oval hole.....or can you? This past winter, 4 shots, 25 yards if I remember correctly.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

I would agree with Sonny T. Shoot at at 5 spot, aim at someting smaller even thumb tacks is better yet.


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## Dave Schmeltz (May 5, 2014)

RCR_III said:


> You're welcome. I'm thinking about putting up some pictures on them or even videos. I'm adding new entries in there as often as I have time to sit down and type them up.


Videos! !! [emoji4]


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

wv hoyt man said:


> I would agree with Sonny T. Shoot at at 5 spot, aim at someting smaller even thumb tacks is better yet.


I am unsure here of which reply you are referring to. I use both the NFAA 20 yard Indoor targets, single and 5 spot. The single spot gives the less clutter for aiming, no distraction of other spots and I use it for out to 40 yards. It's just a good clean target for sighting in and group shooting. 25 and under I use the 5 spot. But then I don't need a target to shoot good groups. Like the picture in my second reply, a point of reference will do. I usually shoot a target well beyond usage, but of picture with being both lazy and 25 degrees out I didn't bother with putting up a target. And 4 shots was enough for me that morning.. 

Videos are entertaining......I haven't seen one that gave a inset, close up, of "good how to" or problem issue. I just went through this with a Senior Pro helping me out a week or so ago. The man was right on top of me to catch errors and problems.

Short range French tuning. I think the arrow holes, slash marks, and arrows give that of a group quite thin for 30 yards and longer compared to the Poster's 30 yard group.... Refined, short range French tuning can give quite good accuracy well beyond 50 yards.
???? Bottom of picture isn't showing for me....should show 30, 31, 32 and 33 yards - bottom right arrow had nock broke by bottom left arrow.


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## Dave Schmeltz (May 5, 2014)

I read over RCR_III's Balancing Act, and found out my stab weight are way off...Now, when I hold the bow out the pin moves a whole lot less. God knows what else I'm doing wrong!!! More reading in store for me....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Is my picture of the vertical line showing completely? I've got just the bottom 2 arrows and a gray peg board where the yardage was printed.


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## mooneyy (Jul 23, 2012)

I too would suggest shooting at a decent target at least when checking groups.

Maybe you could number your arrows and Keep note of which does what. Who knows... might also be a Problem with arrow weight/balance or even improperly glued vanes.
Numbering arrows can give one a good idea as soon as there's a pattern developing.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just a test. Trying to figure why pictures aren't complete....


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## Dave Schmeltz (May 5, 2014)

Yes I have all my arrows numbered and have downloaded ArcherZUpshot to help me track where each arrow goes. This should help knowing what arrows do what. I'm guessing here, but, I would assume I should start by like 20yd and get a good group, then move to 30? 

Here's my plan, for next practice session:

1) Shoot about 30 arrows at a very close range, closing my eyes to "feel" the shot. Run through my shot sequence in my mind
2) Move to 20 yards and repeat that shot sequence and feel, see how I'm grouping, then analyze.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Dave Schmeltz said:


> Here's my plan, for next practice session:
> 
> 1) Shoot about 30 arrows at a very close range, closing my eyes to "feel" the shot. Run through my shot sequence in my mind
> 2) Move to 20 yards and repeat that shot sequence and feel, see how I'm grouping, then analyze.


Might I suggest instead...after successfully completing your #1 exercise, remain at that same distance and put up a target and do the same exercise with your eyes open and note any changes in the feel or character of your execution and make any needed corrections. Then move back to say 15 yards with a target and do the same.

Baby steps when building up a new routine....


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

shoot at the center of a blank sheet of paper at 30 yards,if you still have a vertical group you are dropping your bow just a little or creeping. if you can use a hoyt bow with spirals set at 55 % that will let you know if you creep,if its the other you need more muscle in that arm, 1 gallon milk jug filled full with water and held out to your side 10 times 30 seconds each time ,when you can do that,it will help alot with your vertical problem.its not the bow doing it. good luck many of us have had this problem before


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Are you new at this? It would explain a lot....
Tell us about your setup, draw weight, etc.
Type of release? 
Are those nanos? If so, why?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

No, Sonny, they look to be Carbon Ones....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lord! I haven't used a standard carbon for targets since the CXLs came out and my hunting arrows (the original CX300s) have 4" AAE vanes.
Two knee boots full of arrows and not one standard carbon arrow fletched with Blazers. So I looked through my pics. Found one. I was playing around at the shop and wanted to see how the Boss's arrow would shoot out of my Shadowcat or ProElite. Picture is date 1/9/2010 - that would be my ProElite.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I'd say get your fingers on some more of your Boss' arrows and go to town!! Very nice and lucky for you he was out of town....lol!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Spine*

How many have played with a wide variety of arrows with different spine? Did you have a favorite or just shoot them? Under what bow setup? Accuracy or lack of accuracy a deciding factor? 

Drives me nuts; "Am I under spined? or Am I over spined? My bow ranges have varied from 67 pounds down to 47 pounds. Arrows have been standard size carbon arrows, like the old CX 200s and 300s up to thicker shafts like the CXLs and HT3s. Point weights have ran as low as 80 grs and as high as 145 with 47 gr insert. Into 3D I went with CX300 Selects. 62 pounds, 29" draw and arrow weighing 375 grs including insert and 100 gr field point. Accuracy was outstanding. Problem was, it was slow. Next trick, CX200s cut short but well within safety with the UltraTec's riser designed overdraw. 4" vanes, 90 gr points with 11 gr inserts, 314 grs and smoking 293 fps. Said I was crazy, 62 pounds, 29" of draw and a weak CX200, but no one was laughing when I placed and won as often as ever.

I switched to the CXL 250 when they first came out. From first coming out and until two years ago I had finished dozens of arrows vary from a low of 310 to 340 grs. Odd that spine was always given the same. 4"AAE vanes, 75 gr field point and 11 gr insert. Again, accuracy was outstanding. I used two bows, both Hoyt UltraTecs, one with a Red Line single cam, 62 pounds with 29" draw and a 2004 with cam & 1/2 set to 57 pounds. "You can't use those for Field!" One State Championship, 2nd in another and several times 1st in Spring Openers says they were perfect for Field. I used all the CXLs, 250, 2-250s, 250 Selects and 250 SSs. No problems with accuracy.

Speed a issue with my Shadowcats I went with the CXL Pro 150s. I was at this 3D and ran across none other than Danny Evans, Hoyt Pro Staff boy. We got to gabbing. He's shooting the same arrow as me only mind blowing. Danny is no light weight, okay. He's got some reach on me and pulling more draw weight than me. He's shooting CXL Pro 150s, longer than mine and with 130 grs up front. So I called Carbon Express. I gave them my specs, CXL Pro 150s, 26" in cut shaft length, 90 grs up front and vanes giving a total of 282 grs for the complete arrow. Bow was set to 55 pounds with 28 1/4" draw. The bow was the Martin 2010 Shadowcat. Catcams are not that overly radical compared to a lot of hard cams. Carbon Express ran the numbers. "My arrow was too weak of spine for my set up." This blew my mind. If mine were too weak then Danny's arrows should have been wet spaghetti. 
I continued using my "under spined" CXL Pro 150s and placed and won just like always. Accuracy was outstanding.
I even tried the CXL 350s just in case more accuracy could be had here and the above UltraTecs. Nope. Same ole great accuracy, just a bit slower. 


2012. I went with a the Pearson MarXman. The light weight CXL Pro 150s proved too light and too fragile though within IBO specs. At 55 pounds I was getting 294 fps and if too close to a 3D target, 20 yards and less, I broke arrows. I had a offer I couldn't turn down. So I went with Bart's Harvest Time Archery HT3s with 80 gr points. Accuracy was there and speed came down to the ASA speed limit for me, 284.5 fps. 
Small archery shop and archery only stuff only customers were slow and I got to play a lot. I wanted to see how far I could push the HT3 and maintain accuracy. First jump up was use of the 47 grs and 85 grs point, then 100 grs, then 125 and finally 145 gr point. Actual spread was 111 grs. All I had to do was allow for drop and the X ring was dead meat. No horizontal adjustment was needed. 
Granted, I shot mostly 20 and 30 yards indoors and tested a few out to 40 yards, my max in ASA events. I just plain haven't had accuracy issues. Luck? Good guessing? Bows tuned correctly? Whatever it is, when I'm on using a single spot is just asking for some damaged vanes, nocks and pin nocks. Yes, I do shoot groups for reviews, but it's a rare occurrence and then I've got some "turkeys" that come by every now and then. Drinks taste better when they have to buy. 

The biggest, heaviest arrows I ever tried were field14's 30X Gold Tips. We were at this indoor event, can't remember what. He wanted me to try his logs, so I did. My bow at the time was a Bowtech Old Glory set to 47 pounds I think. Anyway, 5 shots and each arrow impacted right at 7:00 on the edge of the bull's eye. If the arrows varied a 1/4" on placement that might have been all. No doubt just sighting in my bow would have had them chewing up the X ring. 

In all my shooting of the above arrows different vanes really didn't prove to give any more accuracy over another, 4" AAEs, Blazers, Mini Blazers, 3" Bohning X vanes, 1 3/4" Shield cuts, Fusions, NAP Twisters and whatever else I wanted to try.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What is wrong with my computer or ArcheryTalk? I started a new Post and this is how it came.....


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