# Imagine being arrested for being in possession of a bow…



## Gerhard (Aug 3, 2005)

I was waiting for something like this.

Its going to make South Africa a lot less attractive for bow hunters.

As I am sure bow hunting generate a lot more revenue than any off the sporting bodies mentioned.

How can one address this???


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## Karoojager (Dec 20, 2005)

Every year you politician and gazettes impel another sow through the country, last year was the name of the sow " Bow hunting forbiddance ". Is this the sow for 2008 ? Seems some of you S.A. people must learn to await before you publish news like this here in a international forum. It is not helpful for the hunting tourism and helps more to get a image from a banana republic.


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## SelwynM (Dec 3, 2004)

To our honorary South African,

It is clear that you have neither read the post or the gazette properly. If you had, you would see that it is a document calling for public participation, and not one calling for an emotional response. 

More importantly, as a sporting fraternity, it does not help adopting an ostrich attitude and hope that the matter will go away, it won’t! The facts speak for itself, and while there is a concerted effort by government to curtail crime in terms of the proposed amendment to the Act, I see no plausibility in including archers in the gambit. Yes, people have been intentionally maimed and even killed with knives and guns, but with bows?

Moreso, as a citizen of one of the most democratic countries in the world (with all its flaws), I am proud that our government follows procedure and opens matters like this up for public debate, as is our constitutional right.

Your comment


> “some of you S.A. people must learn to await before you publish news like this”


 is contrary to public debate and, which is exactly what this is.


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## SelwynM (Dec 3, 2004)

Gerhard said:


> I was waiting for something like this.
> 
> Its going to make South Africa a lot less attractive for bow hunters.
> 
> ...


The solution is really easy. All it needs is a club affiliated and membership of the bow hunter, even if temporary. I doubt if a nominal membership fee would make any impact. 

As to the revenue, this is mainly conjecture as I don’t have any verifiable financials, statistics or revenue figures.

The real issue is why archery is included in the gambit? I find it very odd that a bow would be classed in the category it has been.

It raises more questions for me than it does answers, and I’m hoping that someone comes up with a logical and non-emotional argument.


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## Bushcat (Aug 31, 2007)

The real issue is why archery is included in the gambit? I find it very odd that a bow would be classed in the category it has been.


The same reason the beach driving ban was forced through despite overwhelming evidence to counter the basis of the ban (3 EIA for beach driving and 1 EIA against) Guess which was used to back up the proposed ban. Australia a first world place allows beach driving.

Look at who is involved in Archery. White people, the more that they can pressure our way of life and bog us down in red tape and create situations for us to be arrested for, the more of us will hit the road out of here. 

My impression is that it is political, and intended to make our lives just a little more uncomfortable.

Ryan Drummond


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## daretobowhunt (Sep 24, 2006)

I see your point Frank, even the VERY controversial "canned lion hunt" debate and the promise from our minister of total "ban" etc, is slowly dieing a slow death, they shake the tree and sit back to see how we scatter to pickup what ever dropped out , that is how they get us to do all the groundwork for them. It looks like the dog that chases a bus and the rest is history. They can’t even sort out the firearm problems!!! It like Bushcat says, they are just trying to irritate the white man. And WHO WILL POLICE THIS? Our Government? You must be joking, and by the way, canned lion hunting is still alive and well and is going from strength to strength, I will take this as I take everything in SA, do as you please and when get caught you say "sorry, I was hungry" or blame it on apartheid and discrimination.As with everything somebody will make lots of money off this for some"accredited bowhunting school" you need to attend if you buy\own a bow


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## Karoojager (Dec 20, 2005)

Yes Lammie, you understand what I mean. Anybody shake the tree and all the people get panic. I promise you, in a half year by our convention no man speak about this affair.
But this are only my 2 cent.

Better I not involve me as a non resident in this kind of discussion:yield:


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## The J-Man ZA (Sep 19, 2007)

> It raises more questions for me than it does answers, and I’m hoping that someone comes up with a logical and non-emotional argument.


This proposed legislation brings back memories of the FCA, and as such is bound to illicit emotional responses, which I think is understandable.

So whats is really at issue here? That this amendment is proposed at all, or that the bow and arrow is included on the list - it includes a lot of things that many would argue should not be there. It also raises the question of how far one might potentially go to define a "Dangerous" weapon - a kitchen cleaver could be just as deadly as panga. Personally I think the issue of legislation itself should be tackled, and not just the presence of the bow and arrow on the list.

Having said that I do believe that if passed, the legislation could seriously harm the sports of both bowhunting and archery, as the inevitable weight of beauracracy will act as an additional barrier to entry in the sports.

As a newcomer to archery and to bowhunting it was an easy sport to become involved in (aside from the financial commitment required) - Introducing this kind of control will stifle its growth, and the economic activity associated with it.

In addition, if the motive behind the legislation is to curtail the widespread circulation of weapons that may be used in the commision of a crime (a proposition that is ludicrous in the extreme anyway), then including a bow and arrow on the list is frankly laughable at best. 

Perhaps the minister should demonstrate how a criminal might successfully carry out a mugging with a compound bow, concealing his intentions before the fact.


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## INGOZI (May 9, 2005)

Well said by all, this will do absolutely nothing else than create massive backlogs in paperwork as hundreds of thousands of people scramble to get "licenced" to be able to own a knife, baton or bow. This makes as much sense as hitting your head against a brick wall, but one can expect nothing less from a goverment as ours. This is simply there to make everyday life as we know it a bloody hassle, who is going to get nailed? The whites, beacuse by making life near immpossible for us here in sunny SA we are being forced to "pack up and leave".

Answer me this, seeing as every bow owner will be harrased by some idiot with a grade 3 education at a road block, will they do the same will "public demonstrations" where axe's, spears and Lord knows what else is weilded around in the air by masses of blacks chanting "bring my machine gun".

I'm sorry to say this, but this country is truly becoming a world wide joke.....

WHAT's NEXT?????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## za_boy (Nov 8, 2005)

Soon all we're going to be allowed to wear are orange overalls with our ID number printed on the front pocket.


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## Invictus (May 19, 2007)

This is going to get people all emotional and agressive me for one but we can only speak from one mouth. SANAA and SANIFAA can speak from a thousand mouths, are we going to unite and stand or divide and fall? We united with the hunting laws and we are still standing.  In the SA archer Selwyn had the article about what does SANAA do for me, why do I have to pay my membership fees. I think we are about to find out but we also need to support them with show of strength.

This is my humble opinion which is not even worth two cents.

Marius Terblanche


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

The definition has excluded hammers (especially geologists' hammers), wire, steel pipes, rope, nails, glass bottles, cars, rocks and large stones, razor blades, bicycle spokes, cable ties, spades and shovels, garden forks, and a few hunderd other things that can be used very effectively as weapons. 

The definition is also notably missing crossbows, which do not shoot arrows, but bolts, and are not referred to as bows at all in other legal conexts. 

The point I am making is that the law should not include items in a list, because the law becomes meaningless as soon as you use something not on the list. Rather encircle all items, down to cricket bats and golf clubs, when used in a threatening and or malicious manner as Dangerous Weapons with a catch-all phrase. 

Leave the definition up to a judge in a court, to decide whether the length of chain a criminal swung at an unarmed homeowner is a dangerous weapon, or whether the bow carried in your boot on your way home from the shop is a dangerous weapon - in the context of the alleged offence.


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## Invictus (May 19, 2007)

Matatazela

You made a couple of very valid points.


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## Matatazela (Mar 1, 2005)

Thanks Invictus. 

If you look here, is it really the civilian that needs control? The cops have lost 3800 firearms in the 12 months up to 31 March 2008. Why the sudden rush to legislate the control of things they have no hope of controlling? I see more and more scope opening up for frivolous and malicious application of laws that will in effect lead to the victimisation of people that are made into criminals by the manufacturing of laws that have very little impact on actual crime.


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

Dear Selwyn 

Please answer these questions for us i know that you brought this to our attention but with the knowledge that you have and obviously the contacts as you seemed to know before most of us could you try and clarify this for me.
As bow hunting is now thought of as a white mans sport etc and they say everbody is trying to strangle the white man's way of life. 
As a avid hunter /archer and bow shop owner i ask this with teeth clenched , tears in my eyes and of course which fool came up with this plan ................ trust it to be someone i pay my taxes to.

LET THE JUDGE DECIDE WHAT IS USED NEGLINETGTLY OR NOT.

1) WHO IS GOING TO POLICE THE 1000 OR SO BUSHMAN RUNNING AROUND WITH BOWS AND ARROWS REMEMBER THEY ARE POISON TIPPED.
2) Tell me how a bow in the back of a car is more dangerous than the car 
itself. 
3) Has anyone really given this any thought or are my taxes paying someone to sit in office to think up these amazing plans that will cost the country more money more paperwork backlogs more ques more everything?????? just to prove he has a job.

LISTEN IF YOU WANT THE WHITE MAN TO LEAVE AS THEY DID IN ZIM BE MAN ENOUGH TO SAY SO AND TELL US DIRECTLY WE WILL GO AND TAKE IT ALL WITH US AND LEAVE YOU TO IMPOLDE SOUTH AFRICA AS EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN AFRICA , MR NQAKULA. MINISTE OF WHAT SAFETY AND DEFINATELY NO SECURITY BECAUSE I HAVE TO PAY FOR MY OWN AS WELL.

Wonder what would happen if i gaztted a notice that i would stop paying my taxes at least i would not be paying for your next overseas trip !!!!!!! and then i would have enough money to pay for my own one way ticket to sunny Europe where the people have the final say as to what they think they need to protect themselves and thrive in a truly democratic society.

The head of our ruling party is accused and has been to trial for rape ,corruption and a whole host of other smeelly activities concerning arms deals where the F#[email protected]^&*(((&^% k was his permit.Also disbanding the scorpions as they were the only ones who policed white collar crime.

Why tell us to promote tourism invest money buy game farms offer a market for international hunters and even target archers in competitions, then tell us after we have spent all this money now bows are classified a shedule 1 weapons, surely the more money i earn the more tax i pay and the more the government benefits and i create more jobs. 
Remember sir we are responsible people and do not want to take bows and shoot people in the streets, i cannot hijack a car with bow.
Where the f $%^# k do i hide it. Maybe i should turn into robin hood and rob the rich and give to the poor , i know that i would be doing a better job than you, at least some people would see some of the promises.

REMEMBER WE ARE ALL NOT WHITE CRAZY ANARCHISTS WE JUST WANT TO LIVE HERE AND DO OUR BIT IN A COUNTRY WE LOVE AS MUCH AS YOU DO (I HOPE). 

SPATAN


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

Dear Selwyn 

Please answer these questions for us i know that you brought this to our attention but with the knowledge that you have and obviously the contacts as you seemed to know before most of us could you try and clarify this for me.
As bow hunting is now thought of as a white mans sport etc and they say everbody is trying to strangle the white man's way of life. 
As a avid hunter /archer and bow shop owner i ask this with teeth clenched , tears in my eyes and of course which fool came up with this plan ................ trust it to be someone i pay my taxes to.

LET THE JUDGE DECIDE WHAT IS USED NEGLINETGTLY OR NOT.

1) WHO IS GOING TO POLICE THE 1000 OR SO BUSHMAN RUNNING AROUND WITH BOWS AND ARROWS REMEMBER THEY ARE POISON TIPPED.
2) Tell me how a bow in the back of a car is more dangerous than the car 
itself. 
3) Has anyone really given this any thought or are my taxes paying someone to sit in office to think up these amazing plans that will cost the country more money more paperwork backlogs more ques more everything?????? just to prove he has a job.

LISTEN IF YOU WANT THE WHITE MAN TO LEAVE AS THEY DID IN ZIM BE MAN ENOUGH TO SAY SO AND TELL US DIRECTLY WE WILL GO AND TAKE IT ALL WITH US AND LEAVE YOU TO IMPOLDE SOUTH AFRICA AS EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN AFRICA , MR NQAKULA. MINISTE OF WHAT SAFETY AND DEFINATELY NO SECURITY BECAUSE I HAVE TO PAY FOR MY OWN AS WELL.

Wonder what would happen if i gaztted a notice that i would stop paying my taxes at least i would not be paying for your next overseas trip !!!!!!! and then i would have enough money to pay for my own one way ticket to sunny Europe where the people have the final say as to what they think they need to protect themselves and thrive in a truly democratic society.

The head of our ruling party is accused and has been to trial for rape ,corruption and a whole host of other smeelly activities concerning arms deals where the F#[email protected]^&*(((&^% k was his permit.Also disbanding the scorpions as they were the only ones who policed white collar crime.

Why tell us to promote tourism invest money buy game farms offer a market for international hunters and even target archers in competitions, then tell us after we have spent all this money now bows are classified a shedule 1 weapons, surely the more money i earn the more tax i pay and the more the government benefits and i create more jobs. 
Remember sir we are responsible people and do not want to take bows and shoot people in the streets, i cannot hijack a car with bow.
Where the f $%^# k do i hide it. Maybe i should turn into robin hood and rob the rich and give to the poor , i know that i would be doing a better job than you, at least some people would see some of the promises.

REMEMBER WE ARE ALL NOT WHITE CRAZY ANARCHISTS WE JUST WANT TO LIVE HERE AND DO OUR BIT IN A COUNTRY WE LOVE AS MUCH AS YOU DO (I HOPE). 

Spatan:cocktail:


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## ASG (Jun 25, 2007)

Mmmmm I was wondering when this was coming?

All the crap about anything being useable as a weapon aside, let's put our heads together and come up with some constructive comment regarding archery gear.

International bowhunters:

At the moment, about 40% of all international hunters that visit South Africa are bowhunters. As it's a multi million dollar industry, it stands to reason that the foreign currency generated by bowhunting is worth millions of dollars per annum. 
The new gun laws from a few years ago seriously impacted the safari business in S.A in a negative way. Foreign hunters simply went to Namibia because of the hassle involved with getting a temporary import permit for their weapons and the eternal wait at the police office at major points of entry. Namibia's gain was S.A's loss as they got a good foothold in the African safari industry. Namibia now has the fastest growing safari industry in the world!

Should hunters now have the same restrictions placed on them for archery gear there will be panic overseas and we loose more hunting clients to other African countries. 
It must be said that the permit system has been refined and it now takes only 15 minutes at customs if the hunters' paperwork is in order.

South African Bowhunters:

If I have to join a club or association, pass a proficiency test, get a psyciatric evaluation and link my bows' serial number to my I.D to keep bowhunting then so be it.
What someone should perhaps point out to the minister is that no two bows are alike. They are tailored to your specifics. Draw length, strength etc. So... should my bow be stolen, chances are that the only person who will be injured by it is the thief himself. 
When my house was robbed about 5 years ago, they took the dvd etc but left my bow that was in the lounge at the time.

Perhaps the time has come for us to now really work together as the archery community and take the lead instead of always reacting after the fact.

Some suggestions:

Every archer and bowhunter registers with one single accredited association and membership allows the use, purchase and transportation of archery equipment.
All archery purchases are kept in a register similar to the one when buying ammo with the buyers' membership number reflected and sent to association for record keeping. No membership, no equipment.
Bowhunters membership number must also appear on the hunting permit issued by the game farmer and sent to association for record keeping.

Let's see what the associations come up with. This is going to become very heated and let's remeber the old sales term...Emotion always overules logic.


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

While we are all tring to be "logical" another multi-million doller business goes up in smoke. 
When the powers be persist in acting ilogically and proposing laws and rules that just show up their ignorance.

It is... I find , very difficult not to become sarcastic about it all.

Please do not mistake sarcasim for logic:wink:

The clubs should benefit as these laws come into effect and if the truth be known I could not give a rats spingster either way.

Have a good weekend shooting your bows everyone.....

JUST FINISHED SETTING UP ANOTHER DREAM SEASON X FORCE FOR ANOTHER EXCITED CUSTOMER.


Spatan:cocktail:


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## Bushcat (Aug 31, 2007)

link my bows' serial number to my I.D to keep bowhunting then so be it.


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## Bushcat (Aug 31, 2007)

ASG said:


> If I have to join a club or association, pass a proficiency test, get a psyciatric evaluation and link my bows' serial number to my I.D to keep bowhunting then so be it.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## spatan (Jul 10, 2006)

*My views exactly, mate....*

The longer the powers that be take to "tink" this through the better.

Spatan


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## Bushkey (Mar 17, 2006)

That is one way of making a big law abiding portion of the South African population a big law disobeying portion. 

Like every thing in S.A., you can still do it, it is just going to cost you now to do it. 

I am amazed that VAT has not been changed. 14% for black patrons and 28% for whites. :embara:


Mr Charles Nqakula has asked us nicly to leave the one day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwXSIDp3RSM


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## OutaAfrica (Mar 14, 2007)

Laat een donner my boog vat dan KaK hy.

They can run in the streets steal rape do what they do even apoint a oak with standerd 3 as President of the anc an possible of the country then they tell me to have a permit for my bow. It took me more than 3 years for my Gun licenses not to have them being taken back how long will they take with this.
The other day in one of the news papers they arrested some moentoes with three pistols that has been handed in for distruction.

Al these so called legal drivers bought their car licenses then they worry about a small thing like a bow 
Rather bring back the death penalty and stop waisting money on all thes other stupid laws one don't get hijacked or rebbed with a bow or hunting rifle. they usually use a hand weapon or a semi automatic R4 or R 5 rifle the type our military and police use.
Only my 2c
Hendrik


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## Invictus (May 19, 2007)

If they bring back the death penalty we won't have anyone left in parlement that is why they stopped it.:zip:

If I was still single with no responsibilities I would have been long gone.


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## SelwynM (Dec 3, 2004)

Hello Spatan,

Your post makes for interesting reading, and while you ask that I respond to your questions, I see that you already have the answers. My response is limited to the questions that you raise, and not your comments and observations.

Your first question relates to policing the legislation. It is one thing passing legislation, and another policing it. We all know that there is selective use of legislation. You only have to look at how taxi’s are legislated and controlled as opposed to motorised good corporate citizens. There is no evidence to illustrate that this pending legislation would be any different.

As to the effectiveness of the legislation itself, it is clear that those responsible need to apply their minds to this matter. It certainly doesn’t take a genius to realise that if those tasked with handling crime were doing a good job, there should be a corresponding result. Clearly, the evidence is to the contrary.

I enjoyed your comment about Robin Hood and share your sentiments. It’s a pity you don’t have some constructive ideas based on fact which I can use in representation.

Regards


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