# Interesting QDM/ AR Insights



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

With the QDM/ AR debate raging in many parts of the United States, and rancor and division being created on account of this potential dramatic change to many state's hunting seasons, I believe this is important to share...

This is an email that was sent by Tex Salerno, life member of NYSCC and NYB. Very interesting...



> Now that most of us serious about deer hunting have sent our NYSCC deer management surveys in, out come some articles on Antler restrictions and deer management.
> 
> April issue of American Hunter (Volume 34 number 4) 2 articles,The Future of Deer Management Predicted. Who's Counting Points.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, indeed.


----------



## fatfingers (Mar 29, 2006)

With regard to QDM no light bulb has gone off in my head that would clue me that it is a good idea. In fact, my opinion is that the 'brown it's down' hunters outnumber the big rack hunters, that's not to say that people don't want to bag big deer, I think that they do, but I also think that many are out for the meat or to have a positive experience with a child.

Those people are going to blaze away and fill their freezer first and are going to resent it when the Conservation Officer pulls up and tickets them for not counting points.

Maybe I'm just not getting something, but at large I just don't see QDM as being practical.


----------



## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

I don't see me giving up bow hunting soon, but if I were to, one of the contibuting factors would be the fact that hunters in this area, generally, shoot any legal buck they see. The sign in sheets at the federal refuges are a sad site for my eyes.


----------



## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

*???????*



fatfingers said:


> With regard to QDM no light bulb has gone off in my head that would clue me that it is a good idea. In fact, my opinion is that the 'brown it's down' hunters outnumber the big rack hunters, that's not to say that people don't want to bag big deer, I think that they do, but I also think that many are out for the meat or to have a positive experience with a child.
> 
> Those people are going to blaze away and fill their freezer first and are going to resent it when the Conservation Officer pulls up and tickets them for not counting points.
> 
> Maybe I'm just not getting something, but at large I just don't see QDM as being practical.


They can still "blaze away" and meat hunt.....for antlerless deer.
All this WITHOUT antler restrictions.....change season dates, and antlered buck harvest regs....kill less bucks.

Bottom line over simplistic view......3 antlered bucks (no matter what age) can breed far more effectively when there are less does to breed. Contrary to popular opinion, 1 buck cannot breed 12 does, not in the wild.

Many of our NE herds suffer from OVER HARVESTING BUCKS, not killing does.

No DEC official has EVER mentioned conception rates that I have heard....and I bet they are pitiful in most areas of NY.

There isn't enough room in this post!


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

alwayslookin said:


> They can still "blaze away" and meat hunt.....for antlerless deer.
> All this WITHOUT antler restrictions.....change season dates, and antlered buck harvest regs....kill less bucks.
> 
> Bottom line over simplistic view......3 antlered bucks (no matter what age) can breed far more effectively when there are less does to breed. Contrary to popular opinion, 1 buck cannot breed 12 does, not in the wild.
> ...


HA! That;s classic... The DEC cannot even tell us what is the size of the deer herd. Could you imagine what challenges they would have with conception rates?

 Classic...


----------



## Adkhunter (Jan 11, 2005)

Interesting enough, Iowa has no winter kill either! As a result more does give birth to healthier fawns than here in the NE. Lets face it. The other states mentioned on a whole do not experience the winters or even have the mountains that NY has let alone combine the two.
This is why NY and the entire NE needs to be managed in a totally different way then any other state or group of states. 

When you add "hunter predation" and a severe winter to a herd that is young all you do is make it harder for a herd to recover. The right balance of age stucture is imperative to a recovering deer herd from a severe winter. 
We in Ny have a very unique state as far as ecological diversity is concerned. Maybe it needs to be managed according to those areas including hunting seasons/harvest numbers..not just north and south!


----------



## MNmike (Dec 27, 2003)

*I've been saying it for some time up here.*

In MN the firearms season starts during peak rut. This is great if only 10000 people hunt. That isn't the case.

I always thought they should have the season later.


----------



## Duckdawg (Nov 10, 2003)

I can see where that would be an excellent tool in promoting older age class bucks. Protect them at their most vulnerable time.
This coming season TPWD is putting in place width restrictions in just about all of ETexas, they have had this in place in 6 counties down south for the past 6-7 years with good results. Older more mature age base buck population.
The problem with trying to protect the most mature breeders down here is that the rut can be really spread out. But protecting them in November would be an excellent idea. Whatever is in the best interest of the resource.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.


----------



## fatfingers (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Ryan said:


> In MN the firearms season starts during peak rut. This is great if only 10000 people hunt. That isn't the case.
> 
> I always thought they should have the season later.


I can't help but to agree with this. 

Give the peak to the bowhunters


----------



## 460461whatever (Jan 22, 2005)

fatfingers said:


> I can't help but to agree with this.
> 
> Give the peak to the bowhunters


Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, you've got my vote. BUT, changing the MN firearms deer opener would be akin to changing Christmas, or Independance Day!


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

460461whatever said:


> Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, you've got my vote. BUT, changing the MN firearms deer opener would be akin to changing Christmas, or Independance Day!


Well, we won't have that problem in NYS. Last year they moved the firearms opener off the traditional Monday to the Saturday before Thanksgiving. Ticked off a lot of people.

Here's another observation made by hunter I met a few nights ago, regarding QDM/ AR.

His attitude was, leave it up to the hunter. He doesn't shoot spikes or forks, just his choice, but he doesn't begrudge anyone for shooting a spike or fork. He also made this very poignant observation that all of us in NYS must think long and hard about - and he hunts both private and public lands. I'll paraphrase the quote:

"I've been hunting for a long time, and, I can take any hunter, during archery or regular season, and put them on a "trophy buck". Heck if I want to bag a monster trophy buck every year, I could, save for one thing..... DRAGGING IT OUT. The places these monster bucks live are very inaccessible. Gotta hike into some seriously heavy cover, over ravines and the like. I cannot even get a four-wheeler back there, and if it takes me four days to drag a deer out, well, it ain't worth going after."

This was this hunter's opinion, but it speaks volumes to some truths concerning whitetail deer behavior. Large, dominant trophy bucks become that way for a very good reason, they avoid hunters. They live in the most inaccessible areas that still offer excellent food and water. Heck, we humans are getting lazier and lazier. I hunt the Allegany State Park during archery season, and, although I have been known to hike a couple miles into the bush while still hunting, I sure would hate to drag one of them impressive trophies out, dragging it over a few ravines, crossing creeks, busting through slashings and redbrush. WHen you consider that most hunters do not hike more than 200 yards into any stretch of woods, its no wonder we do not see the quality bucks. You gotta be where they're at, or you do not see them. Unless, that is, you catch one on a stupid day, and I just love when a deer goes a little ******ed.


----------



## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

*Hmmmmmmm*

I know some of the most remote areas of this state. The Pepperbox, and Stillwater Res. areas, parts of Lewis County and have hunted the Alleghany SP.
I hunt hard, and as far back as possible......even stay out overnight at times.

The reason we don't kill old bucks in NY is they are precious few.

Take nothing away from this man, I am sure he is a better hunter than I am, but there is only a few places in the whole state where even the best hunters can see big buck SIGN.

I have met a few men who hunt A LOT, who consistently take big deer. But NY isn't IA by any means......and I know some excellent hunters who strike out in IA on occasion.

That being said.....the man is absolutely correct........ya kill em way back.....it takes a LONG time to get em out. I was once told that a man dragged out a 200+ pound buck a mile and a half and it took him a half a day.
He got mad when I told him it was nigh on impossible for most men.
I am 6 feet tall, 225 pounds, and 35 years old in decent shape. It took me 2 days to get a 195 pound maine buck that far......and like him, I don't think I would do it again......ya get real hungry and pretty dehydrated.

Just one more opinion......but there are very few places in NY where you could consistently get on an OLD buck every year........and kill him.
Even fewer men with the skill, time, or determination.:darkbeer:


----------



## nywell (Feb 21, 2005)

*Qdm*

I do not think antler restrictions should be legislated/regulated. 
Some hunters (I think most hunters) want to shoot a nice deer BUT are very satisfied to shoot a 4,6,or samll 8 point. If a group wants to exersize QDM, go buy or lease land and do it, but do not forse your desires on others. I feel antler restrictions on county wide, regionally, or state wide basis will reduce hunter numbers. Not something desirable for the hunting community at large.


----------



## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Doc,

Different States will have different conditions. In this area, every piece of land is hunted and hunted hard. We are a flat State. The closest thing to inaccessible we have is swamp, but I know people who get around that obstacle quite easily. The fact in this State is, on public land, if it's brown, it's down. We all know how stupid young bucks are during the rut. Maybe instead of an all restriction, there could be a 1 buck limit on the little guys. That allows kids and newer hunters to have the excitement of their 1st buck without having to wait too long for it, yet still allows more of the guys to move up in age.


----------



## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

are deer herd was fine 5 years ago before dec. in ny let people sign over there doe tags to other hunters,excessive doe tags, excessive buck tags,a hunter shoud be allowed 1 buck whatever season he kills it, we do not need. tine or over the ears crap, this is not pike co.if i an out hunting an see a buck it is my kill if i want it . also if u kill a button buck u shoud have to put it on your buck tag taking away your right to a bigger buck this season it will stop the baby killings that make me sick.an as for sunday hunting it was the best thing going to get people hunting again,also sat. opener got kids out were they shoud be with there dads without missing school , all of this was the only positive things ,an got hunter back in deer camps were they belong, just some thoughts.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

PMantle said:


> Doc,
> 
> Different States will have different conditions. In this area, every piece of land is hunted and hunted hard. We are a flat State. The closest thing to inaccessible we have is swamp, but I know people who get around that obstacle quite easily. The fact in this State is, on public land, if it's brown, it's down. We all know how stupid young bucks are during the rut. Maybe instead of an all restriction, there could be a 1 buck limit on the little guys. That allows kids and newer hunters to have the excitement of their 1st buck without having to wait too long for it, yet still allows more of the guys to move up in age.


Yes, habitat varies from region to region within a State, and also obviously varies from State to State.

However, deer behavior, especially big bucks, are similar, in that they will seek out the very best habitat, offering best protection, food, etc. Many of these places are very hard to get to, and hunters increasingly do not wish to trek that far in, and have that far a drag out. So, what is the motivation behind QDM? Is it honesty to improve the deer herd/ buck:doe ratio? Of, is it hoped that with practicing QDM, more of these larger bucks will be running around closer to your hunting grounds, hence defeating laziness through management?

Just food for thought...


----------



## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

i am against QBM/AR IN NY ,as it will ruin hunting for every body, only hunter with alot of land will like it.hunters that enjoy just hunting an shooting a 4 or 6 point that will be disapointed, young, old hunters will suffer so a few can kill a big buck. supersportmans lis. sales will go down. lets go all out to kill hunting in ny, we do not need peta we have each other lets go back to the old reg.of 10 years ago it was great then an can be again :darkbeer:


----------



## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

doctariAFC said:


> Yes, habitat varies from region to region within a State, and also obviously varies from State to State.
> 
> However, deer behavior, especially big bucks, are similar, in that they will seek out the very best habitat, offering best protection, food, etc. Many of these places are very hard to get to, and hunters increasingly do not wish to trek that far in, and have that far a drag out. So, what is the motivation behind QDM? Is it honesty to improve the deer herd/ buck:doe ratio? Of, is it hoped that with practicing QDM, more of these larger bucks will be running around closer to your hunting grounds, hence defeating laziness through management?
> 
> Just food for thought...


I simply disagree with your laziness premise. I was in a club for 3 seasons. 1,800 acres of hardwoods basically surrounded by fields. No crp-all farmed. The only wooded border was a 400 acre gun club. One guy left the club for health reasons. He finally showed us his game cam pics. Two trophies stood out. Can't miss type. No pic taken before 10 p.mp. No pic taken after 4 a.m. No one had ever seen those deer. No part of our club went unhunted. The gun club had no restrictions other than State. Ours had two buck limit, with no spikes, and second buck had to be 8 points or better and larger than 1st. We were simply an incubator for the neighboring club.


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

PMantle said:


> I simply disagree with your laziness premise. I was in a club for 3 seasons. 1,800 acres of hardwoods basically surrounded by fields. No crp-all farmed. The only wooded border was a 400 acre gun club. One guy left the club for health reasons. He finally showed us his game cam pics. Two trophies stood out. Can't miss type. No pic taken before 10 p.mp. No pic taken after 4 a.m. No one had ever seen those deer. No part of our club went unhunted. The gun club had no restrictions other than State. Ours had two buck limit, with no spikes, and second buck had to be 8 points or better and larger than 1st. We were simply an incubator for the neighboring club.


This is a fine practice privately. I am with it, and support it. But, leave it up to the hunter and educate the hunter on the importance of selective buck harvest. I do like the one buck per season rule, but I would rather see NY go back to the way it used to be, where if you harvest a buck during archery, you may purchase a second special buck permit for regular season only, at the cost of $10.00, and you must report your harvest and make this purchase before the close of archery/ opening of regular season.

Also, the laziness factor. Are you kidding me? How many hunters do you know that now use ATVs? Is this number higher or lower than it was 5 years ago? 10 years ago?


----------



## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

doctariAFC said:


> Also, the laziness factor. Are you kidding me? How many hunters do you know that now use ATVs? Is this number higher or lower than it was 5 years ago? 10 years ago?


I'm sure it exists, but it is not something I see. Part of the reason is, I've been hunting NWR's for about 5 years. ATV's only allowed on one trail per unit. We walk a LONG way and still see quite a few hunters.


----------



## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

*Laziness*

In states where public land is the most common form of hunting ground.....evan the avg guy will hunt farther back.
What I found in the Alleghany was, the steeper it got....the less people hunted it.....even if it was right off the road.
Oddly enough, every deer I shot was in a gully.....makes for AWFUL bowhunting....tough shots, and even tougher drags.

Up north, it is different.....enough land, not as many guys in the woods, and a "fear factor" of getting lost. I go a 1/2 mile from a trail, and not too many boot tracks to be found. Get in my canoe......nobody.

I have seen the way Public land gets hunted down south......and it ain't pretty. Midwest also, you can't have big poulations and relatively small amounts of public land, and expect the unregulated public land to produce like a private club.

Overhunted private clubs are no better than public land.

Like I said......One buck, period is what I wish for.....not likely though, so make em pay for #2 and make it be a Good one.....I think that is as good as it will get, unfortunately.:darkbeer:


----------



## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

alwayslookin said:


> In states where public land is the most common form of hunting ground.....evan the avg guy will hunt farther back.
> What I found in the Alleghany was, the steeper it got....the less people hunted it.....even if it was right off the road.
> Oddly enough, every deer I shot was in a gully.....makes for AWFUL bowhunting....tough shots, and even tougher drags.
> 
> ...


I agree... The second buck tag, that you pat for, if you harvest buck during early archery, must have an AR attached to it, 3 points on one beam, 4 points on one beam?

I am thinking that is the way to go.


----------

