# Pro tours VS Nanos in the wind



## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

I was wondering if anybody has tested the pro tours against the nanos in the wind or have shot the nanos much in the wind, im getting ready to purchase my first set of "nice" arrows for Fita shooting this year and hopefully for a few years to come and am torn between the pro tours and the nanos, also ease of tuning is a factor as well, any input on this would be helpfull, also i am shooting a bowtech constitution at 60 lbs and have a 27.5 inch draw so if anybody has a similar setup to this and is currently shooting either of these arrows please let me know how things are going, thanks alot

jeremy


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've not shot the ProTours, but several archers on the U.S. team were having problems with them breaking behind the point on the bales in Turkey a few weeks ago. Not sure why this is. It seemed that the regular X10 users were not experiencing this problem. One U.S. compound archer lost 5 or 6 ProTours in one day of competition there.

My results with the Nano in the wind have been very good, and I don't think you can get an easier arrow to tune. I have only tuned them from a recurve however.

John.


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

I love my pro tours and would say they are as good or better than anything out there. As for the pro tours in the bails in Turkey. There was a email sent out to FITA telling about the problems everyone had with them bails and all kinds of arrows. Those bails were just like a rock and a compound puts out a lot more foot pounds and that what made the pro tours a subject. Because that is what most of the compound shooters shoot. 

As for the wind I would say the pro tours weight and the size makes them the best arrow I have ever shot in the wind. Hope this helps I just can tell you what I have done and they seem to be the best arrow out there.

Reo Wilde


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Those bails were just like a rock and a compound puts out a lot more foot pounds and that what made the pro tours a subject. Because that is what most of the compound shooters shoot.


Reo, was that the first time Protours have been shot on those kind of bales?

We used those exact same bales in '04, and lots of compounders shot original x10's on them. I don't recall any problems then.

I do know several compound archers who walked off the field saying they were going back to their original X10's.

John.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

I've heard about the arrows from a dutch archery team member. The only thing I could think of is that the X10 protour are more stiff in front than normal X10's. When X10 protour impacts the target it won't flex like X10. The X10's flexibility must keep the arrow from breaking just behind the point in these kind of straw targets. One archer made a comment that the bales where leaning back a lot, I think he is just looking for an explanation. 
The one thing I forgot to ask and don't know is what points where used in the broken arrows.
These kind of bales have a history of breaking weaker arrows, especially redlines and fatboys.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Back to the original question. 
I personally have not shot either. However some of my customers have and compared both. 
They did not find much difference in drift between the 2 arrows and were quite happy with both. 
My wife is shooting Protours now and I have never seen her shoot so many 340+ rounds at 70m before as I am now. So for her she couldn't be happier in the Protour as an arrow.


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## alexcarm300 (Jun 13, 2007)

i have shot the pro tours in the wind and they didnt move an inch with the wind i have some friends who have switched to the nanos and they are selling them because the wind takes them a couple inches so if i had to say, go to the pro tours.


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

*Wow*

I still dont know what arrows to get half like the nanos half like the x tens any body think the ease of tuning is better on the nanos than the x tens?thanks for all the input guys


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

I've spoken to a few compound archers and tuning X10 protour seems to be harder then tuning X10. But when you have them tuned properly they are very forgiving. Basicly where it comes down to: do you want to spend the time/money/effort for X10 protour?


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Sounds like rubbish to me. 
With Erika's I cut em, built em, weighed em and 2 days later without making any changes to the bow she shot a new state 70m record. The week before she cleaned up at our Nationals using her old X10's. No tuning change. 

I didn't buy the 'difficult to tune' claim on X10's and don't buy it on Protours either.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Not everyone is capable of shooting a state record or world record like Aya. I don't use X10 Protour myself. I have this info from dutch national teammembers.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Marcus said:


> Sounds like rubbish to me.
> With Erika's I cut em, built em, weighed em and 2 days later without making any changes to the bow she shot a new state 70m record. The week before she cleaned up at our Nationals using her old X10's. No tuning change.
> 
> I didn't buy the 'difficult to tune' claim on X10's and don't buy it on Protours either.


Marcus you have to realize that not everyone, even the ones who are sponsored or endorsed by easton, has the experience with X10s and protours, and hasn't got by their side a good shooter like your wife to bury them in the 10ring all the time.
After having read quite a few good testimonials about nanos, among them Limbwalker's and Dietmar Trillus'es I decided to go for them. Price was the last factor for me, their tuning and performance was on the other hand detrimental. It's simply too risky to improvize with that expensive shafts, that is unless you have money to throw around or you know exactly what are you doing...


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

VinZ said:


> Not everyone is capable of shooting a state record or world record like Aya. I don't use X10 Protour myself. I have this info from dutch national teammembers.


ROFLMAO wrong Erika dude, there is more than 1 in archery. 



> Marcus you have to realize that not everyone, even the ones who are sponsored or endorsed by easton, has the experience with X10s and protours, and hasn't got by their side a good shooter like your wife to bury them in the 10ring all the time.


Tuning is tuning, if your ability is causing you to not shoot 10's then don't blame the arrows, blame the archer. 



> It's simply too risky to improvize with that expensive shafts, that is unless you have money to throw around or you know exactly what are you doing...


Rubbish, it is not a risk. X10's have worked great for thousands of people. 
However if you WANT Nanos then buy them. A quality arrow, but don't do it while claiming that X10's are difficult to tune, just say "I wanted Nanos so I bought them". No need to make stuff up. 

BTW if one of the reasons you are buying Nanos is to support guys like Limbwalker and Dieter than that's a great reason and one I agree with. Keep in mind that Easton support many great target archers too.


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## Chequamegon (Apr 7, 2006)

I do not have any experiance with the Nano's, but their price point is a good marketing advantage. I have a pro freind that shoots the Pro Tours and Easton was very helpful knowledgable with the tuning process. 

As far as tuning goes, having your own arrow saw is very helpful when tuning new to the scene arrows, so you can cut a 1/4" off at a time. Also, a on hand range of point weights, hot melt for point changes and or being able to lower and raise the poundage of the bow. With this type of arrow I feel that simple flight obsevation is sometimes, overlooked too.

I shoot McKinney II's which I would also take a look at. The are about the same price range as the Pro tours (less I think). They are barely affected by the wind, however, with arrows of this diameter the vane profile is a huge factor. Currently I am using Micro Blazers with good success. I do have some blank shafts laying here and I think I am going to set a few up with some x-vanes to see how they work. I like the micros, but, would like to compare as they are almost identical in weight.

Eric


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

First of all, let me set the record straight here:



> BTW if one of the reasons you are buying Nanos is to support guys like Limbwalker


Buying a Nano may be an enlightened decision, but it is in no way "supporting" me. I do not accept any money or compensation from them, for any product. I'm shooting risers, limbs, tabs, nocks, strings, and most everything else that I purchased with my own money. A few other items I use were provided by archery companies (Doinker, Sure Loc, Lancasters), but I only use what I think works best for me, and have sent countless boxes of products back to the company if I decided not to use it (just ask them, they aren't used to getting stuff back  ) And those companies who have provided product for me to use have not provided any monetary compensation for their use whatsoever. I'm not on anyone's payroll, which allows me to speak very freely, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Some companies (like CX) have asked if they could send me product to test, which I am glad to do so that I can report what I find here and on the Sagi site, but that is the extent of it. I can assure you that if the Nano arrows did not out-shoot my ACE's or X10's, I would still be happy to use the Easton arrows. When Easton produces a more consistent arrow that out-shoots my Nano's, I will be glad to shoot them. The nice thing about having a career outside of archery is that nobody "owns" me and I am free to shoot whatever, whenever I want, with nobody looking over my shoulder. More archers should try this. It would make life easier for them at tournaments :wink:



> Keep in mind that Easton support many great target archers too


Easton does support many great target archers. Both with product and cash. They have been very good at getting me product in the past, and my decision to shoot the Nano was not made lightly because of this. I made it very clear to Easton and CX that I would shoot the arrow that I thought performed the best, and gave me the most confidence on the line. Right now, that happens to be a Carbon Express product.



> i have shot the pro tours in the wind and they didnt move an inch with the wind i have some friends who have switched to the nanos and they are selling them because the wind takes them a couple inches


While the protours and X10 may have a slight drift advantage over the current Nano-XR's, there is more to choosing an arrow than whether it drifts an extra inch or two. Stand back at 70 meters with a quiver full of bare shafts, and fire them all at the bale. Do this two or three times with different arrows, and it will quickly become apparent which ones are more consistent, and ultimately more accurate. You also need to determine which ones are more forgiving of mistakes. Dave Cousins, in Louisville this year, told me that he shoots the arrow that gives him the best results on his poor shots, since all the good shots go where they are supposed to. Well, for me, the Nano gives me far better results on my poor shots than anything else I've shot so far. I think if he were able/willing to try the Nano, he would find the same thing. But he can't, so I'm not sure how he would know what the most forgiving arrow is for him.

YMMV, however. :wink:

BTW, what was probably the first 1300 shot with a Nano from a recurve was done last Saturday at our SI Cup. Forrest Blakley shot a 1305 with his Nano 680's, 100 grain points and AAE Max 2" vanes, breaking his old U.S. Cadet recurve record of 1300 shot with ACE's at Nationals in Colorado last summer.

John.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Marcus said:


> Tuning is tuning, if your ability is causing you to not shoot 10's then don't blame the arrows, blame the archer.



You are perfectly aware that I talked only of ARROW tuning (not the shooters ability, which is why I added that you have a great shooter to verify if the tuning was good, on such unforgiving shaft tuning wise), but I guess we're all here accustomed to _your_ kind of comments...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> but I guess we're all here accustomed to your kind of comments...


While Marcus can be kinda blunt at times (which personally I find refreshing), he is usually absolutely right. When someone with his level of knowlege and experience offers advice, I'd be inclined to listen to it.

John.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Marcus said:


> Rubbish, it is not a risk.


Don't get me started on the "risk" thing. You're the one that cuts Protours both front and back - all Easton techs we heard here about said only front.
Sure, I totally agree with you - cutting both from the front and back seems logical, especially if you have to cut large(r) portion(s) of shaft - but nonetheless there you have the ISSUE, the RISK - *cutting*. Not to mention the regular X10s tapered from both ends, and people play with them too. Is it expensive? - not, but for the ones that get that stuff for free. I read a John Dudley article where he had 3 dz. of X10s with 3 different weight tungsten points, and he played with them to see which weight works the best for him. I don't want even to IMAGINE how many dz. of protours have been cut differently with different point weights, by pros, to find optimal setup for them... We're talking thousands of dollars here since every pro seems to be shooting Tungstens...
And how did Dietmar Trillus tune his Nanos? He started off with around 29'' shaft length, and shot it through paper and cut it down by 1/4'' increments until he found a perfect bullet hole. Simple as that, and then he shot a 359/50m FITA, standard issue break-off points and with meta nocks (now determined to be better with adapters and pin nocks).



limbwalker said:


> While Marcus can be kinda blunt at times (which personally I find refreshing), he is usually absolutely right. When someone with his level of knowlege and experience offers advice, I'd be inclined to listen to it.
> 
> John.


I meant the "blunt" times only...


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Please be careful not to go mudslinging at each other. Everyone is in title of his or her opinion. Please don’t make it personal.

As John pointed out that Marcus has a lot of experience, as a pro shop owner he must have and we should listen, just like I do with members of national team. Most of the people posting here have been shooting for a long time - mistakes are made and are more valuable then when everything goes all right.
Cost is a factor for sure. I can fork up $380 but I can use the money for something better and in the end: I’m just shooting for fun now. This is the reason I bought a Black Mamba on the side, just for fun. True I need new arrows - already broken most of mine FMJ Axis with my Mamba and my ACE are a lot thinner on the front. I'm probably not going to buy Nano/MKII/X10/ACE - think that they are too expensive and it's up to the archer anyway.


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## bigdawg (Feb 26, 2003)

Hello, I must admit, I have Protours and have not had a problem tuning them one bit. I fletched them, cut them, shot them, and it was bang on. I actually am very happy with my arrows. I have always have a slight problem tuning regular X10's. This year with the introduction of protours I have been much happier. They have been a great arrow for many people but ultimately it is the archers choice and I think you just have to go with what you think will work.


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## Footsteps (Jan 20, 2003)

*Pro Tours*

I have not had the opportunity to shoot the Nano's, but I can give my two cents on the Pro Tours. I found tuning the Pro Tours to be like tuning an aluminum arrow. Simple. Get the correct spine for your set up, fletch, cut and done. I have found them to be extremely forgiving and extremely accurate. The best shaft I have ever shot.


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

How do protours compare with X10's for recurves?


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

x1440 said:


> How do protours compare with X10's for recurves?


X10s are made for recurves, ProTours for compounds. I would say that ProTours would be the lesser of the two for recurves


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I can not comment on the X-10's and probably never will … that's some crazy coin for 12 arrows 

But I did spend a few bucks less and still spent some crazy coin on some Nano's this year . I went from Acc's for a few years to Navigators for a few and this year I wanted to try a real "high end" shaft out to see if a person could see any improvements or not…… And the results so far 

Yes I can see SOME improvement however I am not convinced if it is enough to warrant the cost. I would guess the next few months would tell the tale as they say.

Last year at this time at 70 meters ( I practice it at 80 yards) I would occasionally shoot one outside the gold .. This year not at all. However the scores are about the same which means a few more are finding there ways outside of the 10 ring as well. But with an overall smaller group I would have to say it is a form/practice concern more then the arrows

In the wind… yeah they are better then ACC or Navs for sure.. Odly enough most of my misses in the wind go low more then side to side. I guess I collapse from holding to long but have been really impressed with the reduced side to side stringing of the shafts. I really can not see why X-10's would have any more of an advantage in the wind ??

What I do find odd with the Nano's is how much I will kiss out if I impact the end of another arrow.. It has cost me more points then I care to admit this year including a 1st. I would think the increased weight and stiffness would plow through a deflection and find more favorable scoring. A friend of mine has a theory on this and I just may agree……..

Since the Nano's recover faster we think it may not absorb as much of the impact as another arrow and that energy has to be shed somehow resulting in severe kiss-outs as compared to another arrow that may absorbed a lot of the energy and not have the energy to kiss out as much .. Think throwing a round ball of clay at the x-ring as compared to the same size and weight of a rubber ball


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

There are 1400s being shot all over the place this year...and none yet with Nanos...not saying it wont/cant be done...but I dont understand the instant credibility this arrow has, when in real tournament results the Easton X10 has years of proven results...and the protour has proven in a very short time that it can produce similar verifiable tournament results...I know...you will all say "But easton gets all those scores because they sponsor the good shooters"...so?...how does that disprove the fact that Pro tours have won every major FITA event in the world this year in Mens compound? How there have been more 1400s shot this year than any recent year in memory...and its only June...proven quality, reputation...I hear it all the time from archers.."This is the greatest ever...I get better results!!"...while they are in 15th place...
Please dont take this as a slam on any one. It is entirely possible that Nanos are more than the latest flavour of the month. It is entirely possible that we will see a 1415 with them this weekend, and they have a couple archers on their staff who can do it. But to question the proven results of Pro tours, while giving Nanos defacto credibility is insane.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

I can gaurantee that guys like Reo and Dave are shooting Protours becuase they are the best arrow available. If they had to support themselves on what Easton pays them they'd have been done a long time ago :wink:

It did take a while last winter for everyone to sort out what spine to use in the new Protour. Now that there is a database of shooters out there, Easton can steer you right to the one that will work for your setup.

On the other note of will they work with a recurve? Not really. I've tried and had very little luck getting it right. I've turned them forward backward and inside out to see if I could get them to work and so far, nada. I do know that Brady Ellison is shooting them, but that's due to his 31.5" drawlength and 53 lbs on the fingers. There simply isn't a regular X10 that will work for him 

I've seen lots of Nano's out there, but I've not seen anyone shoot their best with them yet.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Dado said:


> You are perfectly aware that I talked only of ARROW tuning (not the shooters ability, which is why I added that you have a great shooter to verify if the tuning was good, on such unforgiving shaft tuning wise), but I guess we're all here accustomed to _your_ kind of comments...


I know exactly what you are saying and I am ALSO referring to arrow tuning. It's not the difficulty that you are claiming it to be. 
Have you ever shot X10's Dado or are you just regurgitating other people's comments?



> Buying a Nano may be an enlightened decision, but it is in no way "supporting" me. I do not accept any money or compensation from them, for any product.


Sorry John did not mean to imply you are getting kick backs. However you have become a kind of face of the product on here and your positive comments will lead to many who value your opinion to try the product out. I have no issue with this and believe that it is a good thing for all parties. 



> Don't get me started on the "risk" thing. You're the one that cuts Protours both front and back - all Easton techs we heard here about said only front.


Do what you want with YOUR arrows, however there was always complaints that top shooters don't share what they do with others. I shared with you that Erika's cut her Protours partly from the back (of which she HAS TO because she has a 25" arrow) and the results were excellent. 
You can interpret that as being that we spent hours and hours with dozens and dozens of arrows measuring and testing. However that is not the truth. Erika has 1 dozen Protours that Easton sent her and we cut that set down. I would not have made the cuts without having thought about it carefully first. 

I personally buy my own X10's and the margins are not high on them so pay close to what everyone else pays. I don't get them for free. 



> And how did Dietmar Trillus tune his Nanos? He started off with around 29'' shaft length, and shot it through paper and cut it down by 1/4'' increments until he found a perfect bullet hole.


So what? He could shoot anything. By your own comments his experience has NO VALUE because he can hit the middle. Now you are showing a double standard by taking the word on one person and not anothers just because you seem hell bent on endorsing Nanos over Protours and picking a story which you think suits your needs more. 
Looks like he did more fiddling with his Nanos than people have with their protours. 



> Simple as that, and then he shot a 359/50m FITA,


Indoor in practise. Sorry while nice shooting that does not impress me. 
Current world record is 357 shot OUTDOORS in COMPETITION with X10's. 
Practise scores are only important to people on internet forums, they mean little in the real world.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> like tuning an aluminum arrow. Simple. Get the correct spine for your set up, fletch, cut and done.


I had the same experience with the Nano. Easier to tune for me than any other outdoor arrow I've shot. Makes sense that the ProTour x10 would be the same, with the heavier nock end.



> There are 1400s being shot all over the place this year...and none yet with Nanos


The best shooters shoot the best scores. If none of the best shooters will even try any other arrow for fear of the EASTON well drying up, then please explain how we are going to see 1400's shot with any other arrow?



> I can gaurantee that guys like Reo and Dave are shooting Protours becuase they are the best arrow available


Sorry Pete, but how can you guarantee that when you know they haven't tried anything but an Easton arrow? You could say they will shoot the best EASTON arrow available however  But I can guarantee that neither Reo or Dave will seriously try the Nano. Too much money coming from Easton for them to risk it. :wink:



> I do know that Brady Ellison is shooting them, but that's due to his 31.5" drawlength and 53 lbs on the fingers. There simply isn't a regular X10 that will work for him


I also don't believe that there isn't a regular X10 that will work for Brady. I shot 50# at 32.5" draw length and managed to tune 410 X10's just fine. He could certainly use a 380 X10, if it were even necessary, which I'm not sure it is. 

Easton has always been the 500 pound gorilla. And they have the money to pay the top shooters because of their strangle hold on the market, which is enough to convince the up and comers that their products are the only ones you can be competitive with. I don't care for that approach. When I see someone who was on the Easton payroll have the marbles to take the Nano into competition, then I will be impressed. Until then, there are no unbiased opinions.

John.


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## primal (Nov 2, 2005)

nano's versus protours in the wind.

i currently shoot nano's... why? cheaper then getting x10's, plus i thought i'd try something new other then an easton arrow. i would say i am quite impressed.

even though they are only 330 grains they seem to drift little even in mid strength winds, they are thinner then navigators but not as thin as x10's (protours)

thats my experience with nano's..... 

if i had personal expeience with x10's i would share that but i dont so i will keep other peoples opinions to myself.


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

yea i agree with john i mean alot of the guys that are recomending the pro tours are paid by easton or havent tried the nanos yet, price really isnt a concern for me im just trying to get the best arrow that i can for shooting 70M in the wind with a 60lb compound im honestly thinking about buying both of them and shooting them when its windy to see waht happens. I have also thought about shooting the easton FMJ's i have a theory that maybe weight is more important than diameter In the wind, but i could be dead wrong about that.

Jeremy


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Weight vs diametre is a tough one. 
If you have 2 arrows, say a ACE and a Axis FMJ with a huge weight difference and a small size difference then the heavier arrow will win out. 
However if you take a much thinner arrow, say an X10 vs an Axis and one is about 50 grains lighter (the X10) the the X10 will win out. 
A 420 grain Axis FMJ will drift 14% more than an 370 grain X10. Which is the same as a Navigator and better than an ACE. 
According to the math the X10 is the best with the Nano in second, however the numbers are very small and most would not notice.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

I'd wish it was that simple Marcus. You're right, but there is more to it than meets the eye.
Fletching of a FMJ Axis will be different than an ACE/X10. It also is nice to know at what distance you are shooting. ACE 400 will drift less then FMJ Axis 400 at shorter ranges than about 50 meter. Arrows like ACE/X10/nano/MKII are all great arrows - there all top of the line so you can't go wrong buying one of them (well almost- MKII does not come in my drawlength). 
@XS24-7
Last Face2Face tournament Hoyt claimed they took all the prizes-well that was true. I only saw 2 non hoyt bows being used in 2 days. Even Christy (USA) en Cousins (needs no introduction) were using Hoyt instead of Mathews. BTW: 1 recurve W&W archer ended up in second place(Frangilli).


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

VinZ said:


> I'd wish it was that simple Marcus. You're right, but there is more to it than meets the eye.
> Fletching of a FMJ Axis will be different than an ACE/X10. It also is nice to know at what distance you are shooting. ACE 400 will drift less then FMJ Axis 400 at shorter ranges than about 50 meter. Arrows like ACE/X10/nano/MKII are all great arrows - there all top of the line so you can't go wrong buying one of them (well almost- MKII does not come in my drawlength).


Disagree. The ACE won't drift less than the heavier arrows at short range, but you will get badly badly hit at long range. The difference is that at shorter range you may not notice. 
Fletching is not a factor because you would assume the same fletchings regardless of arrows. That's like saying "The X10 drifts more than a X7 because I use 5" vanes on it and no point" which is of course not a fair comparison.BTW for the record I use the same fletching on my Axis FMJ's as I do my X10's and score the same with both arrows.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

> en Cousins (needs no introduction) were using Hoyt instead of Mathews.


Cousins has never shot for Mathews, he's been a Hoyt man for a very long time.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

VinZ said:


> Last Face2Face tournament Hoyt claimed they took all the prizes-well that was true. I only saw 2 non hoyt bows being used in 2 days. Even Christy (USA) en Cousins (needs no introduction) were using Hoyt instead of Mathews. BTW: 1 recurve W&W archer ended up in second place(Frangilli).


In compound, podium was 100% Hoyt but for shafts, all were Easton apart from men winner Sergio Pagni that was using Carbon Express arrows.
In recurve, second place men was Michele with W&W and second women was Pia Lionetti with Samick, both using ACE. men winner Rhorberg was using X7 and women winner Mospinek X10 (or ACE, not sure).


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Marcus said:


> Disagree. The ACE won't drift less than the heavier arrows at short range, but you will get badly badly hit at long range. The difference is that at shorter range you may not notice.
> Fletching is not a factor because you would assume the same fletchings regardless of arrows. That's like saying "The X10 drifts more than a X7 because I use 5" vanes on it and no point" which is of course not a fair comparison.BTW for the record I use the same fletching on my Axis FMJ's as I do my X10's and score the same with both arrows.


Again, is not that simple. You will not be able to compare easily arrows in the wind, apart from fat aluminum to thiny carbon. All others need different compomises for FOC and fletching, as well as tuning tricks. Then, wind reaction is quite different depending from wind angle to the flying arrow, and kind of wind blows. Joe Tapley's has on line a lot stuff about how to compare arrow flight between different shafts and diferent wind angle, and a nice article about the "legend" that an heavier arrow is more stable in the wind. 
No, practical results give still a lot of predominance to the speed and high FOC combination in comparison to small diameter and heavy weight combination. At least in all conditions were wind is with a sharp angle to the flight line. The final arrow for the wind should be as light as a McKiney II, as thin as a Pro Tour and as balanced as an ACE. But it does not exist, yet..... Any arrow you will choose will give you just a compromise, and you will have to choose based on your average use for it.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> The best shooters shoot the best scores. If none of the best shooters will even try any other arrow for fear of the EASTON well drying up, then please explain how we are going to see 1400's shot with any other arrow?


So very true - D.Trillus and Clint Freeman are the only two top of the top shooters that shoot Nanos (at least so far) - but I guess we'll have Nano 1400s in no time anyway...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> im honestly thinking about buying both of them and shooting them when its windy to see waht happens.


Just remember, if you do try them, be sure to test the bare shafts first. It might surprise you. Like I said, a lot more to shooting accurately than just using the arrow with the least amount of drift.

John.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2007)

I wonder why McKinney II,s aren't in the conversation...from what I have been reading they should out perform the shafts listed above. Especially when it comes to drift.

Art


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

art v said:


> I wonder why McKinney II,s aren't in the conversation...from what I have been reading they should out perform the shafts listed above. Especially when it comes to drift.
> 
> Art


I am going to set mine up this weekend....but seriously I really doubt if they will drift less. They are light as paper. Seriously how can they drift less? If an ACE drifts more then an X10 there is no way that they can drift less then a Nano.

But I didn't care because I got them for field.:wink:


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## Targetbutt (Jan 19, 2006)

I think the whole idea behind the McKinney arrows is, don't give the wind enough time to make the arrows drift. Those buggers move fast. Faster than my old ACEs that's for sure, I was going about 220fps at 44lbs with the ACEs. Rick was saying his were going 230fps with 40lbs.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Targetbutt said:


> I think the whole idea behind the McKinney arrows is, don't give the wind enough time to make the arrows drift. Those buggers move fast. Faster than my old ACEs that's for sure, I was going about 220fps at 44lbs with the ACEs. Rick was saying his were going 230fps with 40lbs.


I understand that....but if that were the case then an ACE would drift less then an X10....and we know that isn't true.

Take it from someone that shoots a compound and hasn't shot an arrow under 255-260 fps in the past 10 years.....those fast arrows still drift.:wink:


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

*Navigator FMJ and other thoughts*

Seeing as the MKII's have entered the picture....any comparisons or experience with the Nav. FMJ's???
If their diameter is the same as the regular Nav. for a given spine, then the mass will be increased; combined with enough velocity and they should drift less than the regular Nav. and posssibly some of the other high performance arrows being discussed.
As Vittorio mentioned though, the perfect arrow does not exist- we are working with compromises: speed vs. stability, velocity vs. mass....
Also, are we talking 90 meters, 70 meters, elite male recurve or compound, female archers with light bows, average to above average shooters???

Having been out of the sport for about 25 years, I don't have much experience with alot of the newer equipment ie: spectra/dyneema strings, carbon/foam limbs, high performance arrows. Back in the day - Kevlar strings made a brief appearance, carbon limbs were just emerging and everyone still shot aluminums, with the trend to larger diameter/ thinner walled arrows; (Darrell and Rick were shooting well above 1300!) I couldn't shoot them as well....tried 1914's & 2013's, but got best results with 1916 xx75's out of 45/46 lb. T/D 2. While my sight marks were lower, my groups were tighter. Yes, there was a fair amount of wind drift, but it was more consistant and I could use these arrows for indoor, field and FITA 1440. 

Maybe we should be considering who is shooting what (Men/Ladies, Recurve/Compound, etc...), and see what the best arrow is for each situation???


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Targetbutt said:


> I think the whole idea behind the McKinney arrows is, don't give the wind enough time to make the arrows drift. Those buggers move fast. Faster than my old ACEs that's for sure, I was going about 220fps at 44lbs with the ACEs. Rick was saying his were going 230fps with 40lbs.


It's flawed logic. 
While a McKinney or ACE will leave the bow faster than a X10 it does not maintain that speed as long or have as much energy as a heavy projectile so at 70m will be slower than the X10. 
This coupled with the fact that they are thicker also disadvantages them. 

Easton are not stupid, if speed was the factor in wind drift then they would make a lighter arrow now wouldn't they.


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## 3D-Nut (Jan 26, 2007)

I am not going to argue about these 2 awesome arrows. What I can tell you is that I have been playing around with the NANO's this last week and all I can say is that they are awesome. I am not a great shooter but with my new NANO's I have been shooting 6-8" groups at 100 yards concistently, even in mild to moderate wind. They tuned very easy. I say tuned and I still have some fine tuning to do but I was eager to get into the field. I had a near bullet hole in a matter of a few minutes. They are perfectly inline left to right from 20 yards all the way to 100 yards. They were also "walk back" shot between 20-50 yards and dead on after my brief tuning. I have seen some minor wind drift at 100 yards in a cross/tail wind but ALOT less then other arrows I have toyed with. Also and interesting side note, I shot them at 264 FPS point blank and at 20 yards they lost only 8 FPS. Not bad for a 319 grain arrow. Typically with arrows that light I see a whole lot more speed loss at 20 yards. I dont know if that is due to the arrow recovering faster or absorbing more energy, I dont know, I am not that far advanced to have the answer. It is what it is. As another side note, I felt at first that they were a bit unforgiving compared to other arrows I have shot and tuned but after working with and changing my form a bit and esspecially altering my grip technique slightly, I get them to respond MUCH better during a less than perfect shot. I believe this to be a function of lighter arrows are faster and leave the string faster and changing my grip technique helped my hand react faster during the shot if it needed to "kick" the arrow where it needed to be during a less than perfect shot where as with my previous grip technique that worked fine on my slow indoor arrows didnt with the much faster NANO. Also it is common practice to reduce the spine sizes by 2 sizes due to a very stiff arrow. It also worked for me.

Hope that helps some.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

We had a good test today. 
Me, my wife Erika, Aust Cadet team member Sten Nigol and James Park all shooting 70m. 
Me: X10
Erika: Protours
Sten: Nanos
James: Nav FMJs

Our scores
Erika: 346
Me: 346
James: 344
Sten: 173 (only shot half a range)

Myself, Erika and Sten all managed 60's, while James got a heap of 59's. 
Answer: They all rock. 

Here is Sten's 60 with Nano 450's. (although he may stay with his X10's for competition)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Marcus, are you SURE that you and your wife shot the same score??? :zip: Ha, ha, ha.

That's some fine shooting.

John.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Marcus said:


> Me: X10
> Erika: Protours
> Sten: Nanos
> James: Nav FMJs
> ...


:thumbs_up nice :thumbs_up 
So anyone can't really go wrong buying MKII/Nano/ACE/X10/Nav. You could get the wrong spine/length, but that's about it.
I think it's nice that we get more and more choice at the top range. X10 was lonely at the top for a long time. Also shows how difficult it is to make a top class arrow.
[offtopic]
I've heard something about an arrow from Gold Tip to compete with the above list (Monthy53 came up with it in an other post). Does he mean the Gold Tip Ultralight Pro? I like Gold Tip's Contingency Program (especially for kids). Also: the pro version costs about the same as ACC.
[/offtopic]


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

VinZ said:


> :thumbs_up nice :thumbs_up
> So anyone can't really go wrong buying MKII/Nano/ACE/X10/Nav. You could get the wrong spine/length, but that's about it.
> I think it's nice that we get more and more choice at the top range. X10 was lonely at the top for a long time. Also shows how difficult it is to make a top class arrow.
> [offtopic]
> ...




Nope.

Spoke with Tim Gillingham at Vegas in February 2007.
GoldTip is working on a FITA arrow.


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Tim is shooting that FITA arrow now and has for a few months.


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

John I will tell you that if it was about money I could get a ton more to shoot the nano. The would also pay me up front and not on if I won or lost. So when you talk about me know the full story. Pete is a friend and I do talk to him about things like that. I did meet the guys that build the nano and he is a super nice guy and I'm sure his arrows are good but I have had a few and still love my easton arrows. I once had a good friend tell me losing isn't worth any price. 

I think that people need to take a good look at how close scores are. I try to find every piont I can because if I can get a advantage I would take it. I think we need to look at great shooters that people think can shoot anything. I know shooters out there that are good and we all know that change there equipment at the drop of a hat. There scrores just fall and never go back up. Just a thought and tuning does matter.

Reo Wilde


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Bob_Looney said:


> Tim is shooting that FITA arrow now and has for a few months.


Any idea when the general public can shoot them too?


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Are you sure it's not ultralight pro? This is from there website:


> Ultralight Pro arrows are designed and built to the demanding specifications of top field, FITA and 3D archers. If you demand the best from your equipment, count on Ultralight Pro arrows to deliver exceptional performance shot after shot. At +/-.001” Straightness and guaranteed to weigh within 1 grain per dozen, you will not find a more accurate or more consistent arrow. Each dozen Ultralight Pro arrows come standard with GT Series nocks and inserts and are available in spine sizes 300, 400, 500 and 600.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

VinZ said:


> Are you sure it's not ultralight pro? This is from there website:


That is what Tim shot in the past because that's all they had. He isn't shooting them now though. They have a new shaft.....just like everyone else has shown. New shafts will be developed.:wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John I will tell you that if it was about money I could get a ton more to shoot the nano. The would also pay me up front and not on if I won or lost. So when you talk about me know the full story.


Reo, that's just my opinion based on what I know. I doubt Carbon Express could/would compete with the thousands of dollars that Easton has paid out in the past and will in the future. But I could be wrong. I have been before, and really it's not anyone's business but your own. My only question is how you and Dave can be so sure without actually trying them? :wink:

The bottom line is that there is finally a legitimate option to the X10, that IMO, is actually a better arrow and less expensive to boot. And I don't think Carbon Express is finished yet.

John.


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

I have shoot them and still love my pro tours. I can't speak for dave but I have shot them. 

Reo


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well in that case, good on you Reo. And if the Pro Tours work better, then you'd be foolish not to use them.

I just hate it when folks say "x" is definitely better than "y" when they've never even tried "y" in the first place... 

I think for compound shooters especially (not so sure about us recurvers) that the pro tour makes a lot of sense. Silly to have to chop so much off the back of every stock X10 right off the bat... Might as well fix the problem, and it looks like they did that.

These really are good times for target archers, as there have never been so many quality outdoor arrow choices. Even just a few years ago when I got started, it was either ACE's or X10's. Period. Then came along the Cartel Triples, McKinney II's, Navigators, Nano's, Carbon Impact's and who knows what's next... So an archer can find a quality outdoor arrow to fit their budget, and still not be giving up too much of a competitive advantage.

It's much better than it used to be.

John.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

John, is good time for average archers and compound archers, but not at all for top level recurve archers, as far as arrows are concerned, if they need arrows longer than 30" and want to shoot 50# at least. 
The limit for arrows was reached last year with the introduction of latest superfast limbs, and present only solution is to drop poundage in order to be able to use 370 or 380 spine that is the stiffest available nowdays. Hope soon or later someone will understand the wide need for a 340 (dynamic) spine at reasonable shaft weight. Yes, you may answer that probably a 400 McKinney II or Nano can fit the gap, and are surely worth to try, but from Easton there is no answer to this need, yet, as Pro Tour are not for finger recurve shooting.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

> Hope soon or later someone will understand the wide need for a 340 (dynamic) spine at reasonable shaft weight.


Maybe one day the all carbon barrelled shaft arrow


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> to use 370 or 380 spine that is the stiffest available nowdays.


I understand what you are saying Vittorio. Top level male recurve archers are still (for a little while longer) in a bind with the available selections.

But that is changing too. The Nano 410 is more than dynamically stiff enough to handle 30+" and 50+# of draw. I currently shoot 46-48# at a full 32.5" draw length, and still found even 450 Nano's too stiff for my needs. I could have shot them with a 120-125 grain point, but for now I am finding excellent results with the 490 Nano and 110 grain point.

Joe, the arrow you speak of may be closer than you think... :wink:

Just wait and see what is available soon. :zip: 

John.


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> Any idea when the general public can shoot them too?


ready for next season is what I have heard. I don't know of anybody but The Hammer using the proto's but I'm not in that loop.
I have never met him but have close friends that talk to him on a regular basis. I understand he is very open to phone calls from anybody. You might give him a call and inquire about the arrow.
Worst case... he says he can't talk about them.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Got some inside information from Easton:
Finally heard why protours X10 broke in Turkey - Easton used a different kind of carbon than 'normal' X10.


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

*From Easton Website*

"Protour features a new higher modulous carbon fiber to keep weight slightly lighter than the fully-barreled X10."


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## scrounger (Mar 13, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I understand what you are saying Vittorio. Top level male recurve archers are still (for a little while longer) in a bind with the available selections.
> 
> But that is changing too. The Nano 410 is more than dynamically stiff enough to handle 30+" and 50+# of draw. I currently shoot 46-48# at a full 32.5" draw length, and still found even 450 Nano's too stiff for my needs. I could have shot them with a 120-125 grain point, but for now I am finding excellent results with the 490 Nano and 110 grain point.
> 
> ...


John, maybe you can help me out with proper selection. I was about to buy 29" long 680 shafts for my 38lbs oly but something that I observed on the shooting range made me doubt the choice. 
Someone was shooting 680's cut to 27" from a 50lbs compound PERFECTLY. Then he went on to set up a new bow. He didn't have arrows for it yet so he tried the same 680's: they were on the mark at 30m and I mean on the round 2" sticker. The thing is, his new compound is an Apex at 70 lbs... 
If that is the actual range that 680's can take, I'm worried I'll end up with shafts way too stiff. 
Thanks,
Rob


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

scrounger said:


> John, maybe you can help me out with proper selection. I was about to buy 29" long 680 shafts for my 38lbs oly but something that I observed on the shooting range made me doubt the choice.
> Someone was shooting 680's cut to 27" from a 50lbs compound PERFECTLY. Then he went on to set up a new bow. He didn't have arrows for it yet so he tried the same 680's: they were on the mark at 30m and I mean on the round 2" sticker. The thing is, his new compound is an Apex at 70 lbs...
> If that is the actual range that 680's can take, I'm worried I'll end up with shafts way too stiff.
> Thanks,
> Rob


If it could help I read Dietmar Trillus'es review of Nanos and they spined well for him at 28.5'' bare shaft length with 100gr. points (he gradually cut them till he got what he liked). 490s, and his DL was 29.5'', with 59.5'' of DW. Also Apex...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scrounger,

680's sound stiff for a 38# setup at 29" shaft length.

I have a student using 680's at 48# and 28", so I would suggest something a full size smaller.

John.


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## scrounger (Mar 13, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Scrounger,
> 
> 680's sound stiff for a 38# setup at 29" shaft length.
> 
> ...


John,
Sounds about right. It was the shooting of two-three sizes smaller shafts that got me perplexed. 
For 48# at 28" CX chart shows 630-580 range and your student is using 680: if that is typical, going one size smaller makes sense. 
Well, I will order and try 730's. Thanks! 
Rob


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

scrounger said:


> John,
> Sounds about right. It was the shooting of two-three sizes smaller shafts that got me perplexed.
> For 48# at 28" CX chart shows 630-580 range and your student is using 680: if that is typical, going one size smaller makes sense.
> Well, I will order and try 730's. Thanks!
> Rob


I just wonder whey the chart is off so much. I have 40# and 28 inches and was thinking that 680s would be fine based on the chart.

-Andrew


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

spangler said:


> I just wonder whey the chart is off so much. I have 40# and 28 inches and was thinking that 680s would be fine based on the chart.


There is no easy answer. Charts are based on static spine - not dynamic. Different brands use different methods to make a chart. So don't rely on the Easton chart when selecting Nano. 
To give you an idea about the complexity: Lighter arrows (low GPI) respond dynamicly stiffer then high GPI. ACE/X10 aren't straight so changing there length can have strange effects on dynamic spine. Dampening of carbon is also a factor. Combine carbon and aluminium in one arrow then things get even more complex. And then last but not least: what kind of carbon is used. Carbon revolution has [email protected] while Lightspeeds are 8.16 [email protected] Knowing all this now consider this: compound? finger release? all factors that must be taken in consideration. I believe your question it's worth another thread...


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

VinZ said:


> There is no easy answer. Charts are based on static spine - not dynamic. Different brands use different methods to make a chart. So don't rely on the Easton chart when selecting Nano.
> To give you an idea about the complexity: Lighter arrows (low GPI) respond dynamicly stiffer then high GPI. ACE/X10 aren't straight so changing there length can have strange effects on dynamic spine. Dampening of carbon is also a factor. Combine carbon and aluminium in one arrow then things get even more complex. And then last but not least: what kind of carbon is used. Carbon revolution has [email protected] while Lightspeeds are 8.16 [email protected] Knowing all this now consider this: compound? finger release? all factors that must be taken in consideration. I believe your question it's worth another thread...


I wasn't referring to the Easton chart, but the CX arrow chart where for 40# 28" they recommend a nano 680 or 630 but here John is saying that his student at 48# and 28" is using the 680 and it spines well.


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## scrounger (Mar 13, 2007)

spangler said:


> I just wonder whey the chart is off so much. I have 40# and 28 inches and was thinking that 680s would be fine based on the chart.
> 
> -Andrew


Ok, got my 730's and for now can tell you what doesn't tune. 
In preliminary bare shaft testing the 730's at full length 29" out of my 38lbs oly shows too weak spine even after breaking the point down to 80 grains. 

Have some room under clicker: will remove 1/4" at the time. If I get it to tune I will post the final setup.
Rob


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## chelleo (Mar 17, 2007)

This is an interesting conversation for sure....I'm not an expert shooter by any means but I love my Nano's. Besides tuning so easily was smoother than smooth. One thing I love about them is the durability, they have taken some hard hits into wood on end of bales and the shafts are perfect. It was a bit windy at the end of my shoot today and it didn't seem to make much difference in my scoring. 

A friend that was shooting the McKinneys today rammed a point down into the shaftby hitting something at the bale. The shafts are pretty thin compared to the nanos. When I first got the shafts I was using the meta nocks which have since been replaced by pin nocks, there was one shaft that developed a crack nock end for no apparant reason. I sent it back to Carbon Express and they sent me a new one, have to say I was pleasantly surprised.


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## Rob Dr (Jan 3, 2007)

Do you think not having the assymmetric nock option disadvantages them for recurve shooting? Or is it just a over rated?


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