# Who thinks IBO should have a Known yardage class for men and women? And why?



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd probably shoot known in IBO so I could learn the targets a bit and be working on judging the Rinehart's until I can buy them.


----------



## math1963 (Apr 9, 2014)

Most every time I get in my stand, I check the distance of trees or object around me with a range finder. I do this just in case one sleeps up on me and I don't have time to range it. I shoot ASA in Senior Hunter (Known and Unknown). This class seems to be a small class at most local shoots. But, the known yardage classes are full. Just my observation.


----------



## trumankayak (Dec 28, 2011)

I would start going back to IBO events if there was a known division.
IBO is a great organization and hopefully they will see that there are ALOT of known shooters out there.
And alot of dot shooters that would also show up.


----------



## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

I've never shot an IBO shoot at any level. I prefer the ASA format, the speed limitation and (since it's introduction) the K45 class. If the IBO started a known yardage class, I would attend an IBO.


----------



## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

No no no


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

they should because known yardage classes are the largest where ever you shoot.


----------



## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

I think they should add a known distance class! Possibly even something different that the ASA doesn't have and try a Hunter Known and also have an Open Known


----------



## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

A better question would be why not? I can't wrap my head around not having a known class and why anyone would be against it? If it brings more participation and allows people who might not do it without a known class, why would you say no, no, no?!? It makes no sense! It literally doesn't hurt anyone to allow some the use of a rangefinder that either struggle with yardage for whatever reason or don't have the time or finances it takes to learn, but would love to be able to compete! From am orginizations stand point, it brings in more revenue, and that's just good business!


----------



## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

Yes they should. Practically every current hunter and future hunter owns or will own a range finder to hunt with. As a member of the IBO back in the 80's, we certainly frowned upon the range finders and prided ourselves in judging yardage. It is actually what helped launch the current ASA/IBO format. But times have changed and so have the archers/hunters. With more and more archers shooting multiple types of disciplines, all the organizations should be looking at all ways to increase attendance. After getting a chance to shoot in FITA, Field, Indoor, and 3D events over my career, I realize more and more that 3D is a game of yardage guessing. If I am right in guessing my yardage I have a roughly 4-5" circle of error and still score a ten. In the other disciplines that same 4-5" circle means you are dropping points. I still love 3D, but the IBO really need to get the "Dot" shooters out there!


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

No no no.......keep it old skool.......... (just taking the ) rebuttal side of the debate.....


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Yes they should. I have been trying for a couple years to get them to start one
It would be great for people that don't have the time to practice judging and for the field shooters
The only why not that you ever hear is because 3d is supposed to be a hunting situation and people that think that way are very close minded. So many people use rangefinders for hunting plus why the stools ,long stabs,scopesand lenses aloud in IBO then


----------



## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

I dont believe the IBO wants to douchify the Organization.


----------



## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Pincher said:


> I dont believe the IBO wants to douchify the Organization.


This dude's right. Why would anyone want to shoot at a target, foam, animal, or otherwise and know with absolute certainty how far away it is? 
Am I the only one hearing that loud GONGGGGG! in the background?


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Pincher said:


> I dont believe the IBO wants to douchify the Organization.


They have already accomplished this don't worry with no shoot times...anyone could win a IBO event and never leave their car and you call this a true national tournament ?


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Topper1018 said:


> This dude's right. Why would anyone want to shoot at a target, foam, animal, or otherwise and know with absolute certainty how far away it is?
> Am I the only one hearing that loud GONGGGGG! in the background?


If you know the distance it will show really fast how bad you actually are and how many archers hide behind the excuse I misjudged the target when they miss and in reality they really can't shoot to start with... I tell you the distance and where to shoot the target at things get a little frustrating when you can't hit what you are aiming at and target panic sinks in...everyone should try a known distance round at a national tournament just once and then tell everyone how easy it is...last I checked this is 2014 not 1980...things progress and change except the IBO....RIP


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

cenochs said:


> They have already accomplished this don't worry with no shoot times...anyone could win a IBO event and never leave their car and you call this a true national tournament ?


C'mon now, just cause you got your butt whipped doesn't mean they cheated


----------



## mpex (Apr 28, 2012)

I would like it if they would start a known yardage division. I would love to shoot HC or AHC Known.


----------



## Sbay (Feb 28, 2003)

I would definitely shoot Known AHC if offered


----------



## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

Nooo. who wants to shoot with over 1700 other archers.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pincher said:


> I dont believe the IBO wants to douchify the Organization.


By god buddy you must have a brilliant mind and be great person.......... Your words, ideas and thoughts are always so advanced and creative that the world would be a much better place if we could only follow your lead! 






Pincher, you are absolutely amazing and I mean that sincerely! You may just be the most ignorant and disconnected _man_, IF that is what you are, to ever post on AT. THAT is amazing!


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

hoosierredneck said:


> Nooo. who wants to shoot with over 1700 other archers.


I see what you did there!!!!

Of course, it would make the already slow IBO shoots even slower.....if more folks actually showed up.


----------



## LoneWolfArcher (Jun 6, 2006)

Yes! Most bow hunters shoot deer at known yardages (as stated in this thread already). You could do this without interfering with the yardage judging aspect of the current classes.


----------



## glennx (Oct 7, 2006)

cenochs said:


> They have already accomplished this don't worry with no shoot times...anyone could win a IBO event and never leave their car and you call this a true national tournament ?


It says Jackaroo It should say Jack ass


----------



## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

reylamb said:


> I see what you did there!!!!
> 
> Of course, it would make the already slow IBO shoots even slower.....if more folks actually showed up.


That's pretty funny.


----------



## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

cenochs said:


> They have already accomplished this don't worry with no shoot times...anyone could win a IBO event and never leave their car and you call this a true national tournament ?


i dont usually say much on here but i have seen u slam the ibo for a long time <actually any time u get a chance to> its not all about winning its about having a good time having fun but some guys cheat but most are honest good guys good luck to u I HAVE NEVER SHOT WITH A CHEATER IN THE IBO


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

glennx said:


> It says Jackaroo It should say Jack ass


Explain ? Every point I gave about the IBO is true...
Same shoot sites since we'll forever - 
No shoot times or assigned stakes
No speed limit 

Any type of logical thinking will come to the conclusion the IBO is just a big local shoot that does not want to hold a true National Tournament. How the amateur classes are treated everyone should just shoot for fun and go home..

When an organization uses words like National Triple Crown the tournaments should actually reflect this with to make the playing field level and the only distinction between the winners and losers is their ability to shoot and knowledge of equipment. 

Example - How long do you think other sports would last if the competitors and teams got to choose what day and time they got start a game so they could avoid bad weather and only play when everyone is healthy, record books would have to be thrown away... 

If you live in IBO country and don't want to shoot other organizations that is fine but be truthful with yourself and others and take the IBO format for what it is and don't try to make more out of it than there is...


----------



## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

cenochs said:


> They have already accomplished this don't worry with no shoot times...anyone could win a IBO event and never leave their car and you call this a true national tournament ?[/
> 
> 
> 
> u seem to always be critical of the ibo i like the fact that u can come and shoot when your schedule demands it i shoot with a friend and we always shoot with other people we dont cheat so nobody in the asa shoots with somebody they dont know? nobody in the asa has ever cheated lol we all know that isnt true i guess the pros must cheat from your comments because they shoot together on a regular basis


----------



## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

good conversation I was a very good athlete in high school and college <there will never be a level playing field> some athletes are just more superior lighting changes in the woods and the field in a heartbeat bottom line to me is lets support archery!!!!! its what we love


----------



## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

First I will say yes!! I think the IBO needs a known yardage class! Secondly I also get sick of people slamming the IBO. While I understand that it wouldn't be hard to cheat an IBO event. However, over the last several years I've made peers for the 3rd leg of the triple crown and shot with most of the guys that are at the top of my class year in and year out! They are all great shooters. This year I had a one point lead going into the last shoot and knew I would be shooting with the guy I had to beat. He beat me by 5 points and won the triple crown. I shot with him the year before and new it would be tough. As far as I'm concerned the best shooter in our class won the triple crown. I am extremely proud of my 2nd place finish behind him and looking forward to the competition again next year. Basically what I am saying is that a lot of great shooters win IBO events and people on here are basically putting us all down every time they make comments such as the ones above. JW


----------



## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

shamlin said:


> Yes they should. Practically every current hunter and future hunter owns or will own a range finder to hunt with. As a member of the IBO back in the 80's, we certainly frowned upon the range finders and prided ourselves in judging yardage. It is actually what helped launch the current ASA/IBO format. But times have changed and so have the archers/hunters. With more and more archers shooting multiple types of disciplines, all the organizations should be looking at all ways to increase attendance. After getting a chance to shoot in FITA, Field, Indoor, and 3D events over my career, I realize more and more that 3D is a game of yardage guessing. If I am right in guessing my yardage I have a roughly 4-5" circle of error and still score a ten. In the other disciplines that same 4-5" circle means you are dropping points. I still love 3D, but the IBO really need to get the "Dot" shooters out there!


My opinion, exactly.


----------



## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

cenochs said:


> Explain ? Every point I gave about the IBO is true...
> Same shoot sites since we'll forever -
> No shoot times or assigned stakes
> No speed limit
> ...


If you truly think this is even remotely possible in an outdoor 3D competition you are delusional. The weather and lighting change during the day and from day to day. Speed limits do not level the playing field. There are still great differences in equipment needed to reach that speed by people with short draw lengths compared to long draw lengths. A person who is 6'6" can see the ground better than someone who is 5'2". In every sport there are athletes who have physical and mental advantages. It's a competition to see who is the best and who can play the game the best. If you want fair and a level playing field try checkers.
So what you are saying is that no one who has ever won the IBO Triple Crown is not a true champion? Again you are delusional. Maybe you should try telling that to someone like Wes Van Horn or Chris Abrahamsen. If you don't like the IBO don't go. But who are you to belittle what others like and take pride in accomplishing?


----------



## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

3D shooting for me is about making the best shot by judging the yardage to the best of my abilities! I think a known yardage class takes away from the prestige or 3D shooting, Not too mention in a known yardage class there are some guys out there who shoot so good that their almost guaranteed to win every event, This is where judging comes into play! Your skill isn't just shooting its judging!


----------



## Bullseyebry1 (Feb 17, 2012)

Absolutely YES! No one is saying to remove yardage judging, but to increase participation, grow the membership and be more inclusive to ALL archers, why not have a class for them? There are some great archers who also hunt that dont shoot 3d tournaments like Reo Wilde, Dave Cousins, Paul Tedford and Ben English just to name a few. The 2014 IBO Worlds registration as of Friday 08-01-14, was less than 1,100 people, we used to get over that in MBO alone and over 5,000 at a shoot. The ASA shoot in Kentucky had over 1,700! I emailed Bryan Marcum, president of the IBO, and he did everything he could to discredit the questions I had, to the point of calling me a "beginner" and looking up my finish at Erie to add insult to injury. This kind of thinking will continue to drive membership and participation down in the IBO. PM me for a transcript of the emails if you question his response. (BTW my initial email to Marcum was asking why there was not a "move up" rule for AHC, which I was told that my question was baseless!?!?! WVH cleans a 40 target course and shoots 27 out of 40 11's and I am wrong for asking about a move up rule?!?!?)


----------



## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

Yes I think the IBO should add a known class. It possibly could bring new blood to the ibo and 3d.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I like the idea of allowing shooters to "graduate" into the unknown classes if they so choose to. By having known distances, it gives people new to the game or people migrating over from other venues and not familiar with the targets to get broken in to the game and work on their form AND their "judging skills" while still being able to compete and not losing arrows all the time or being embarrassed by launching boolitts out into the trees or otherwise destroying equipment.
I'm not positive of this, but I thought I read somewhere that in ASA the known distance classes are the fastest growing of all the shooting classes in ASA?

It is better to have it so everyone that wants to can compete and to have options to stay "known" or work to "unknown", or just stay in unknown. Since known and unknown classes do not compete directly against each other, "what difference does it make"...nobody in known is stepping on those in unknown, and vice-versa.


----------



## Dan-0 (Dec 4, 2007)

There's absolutely no good reason not to introduce a couple of known yardage classes, especially if the goal is to increase participation and increase revenue.

If they do not, attendance will continue to decline or stay flat while the Asa grows. 

If they are satisfied with being pushed aside and marginalized, they will continue to ignore the customer base. It appears that's exactly what they want. Baffling.


----------



## Bullseyebry1 (Feb 17, 2012)

dan-0 said:


> there's absolutely no good reason not to introduce a couple of known yardage classes, especially if the goal is to increase participation and increase revenue.
> 
> If they do not, attendance will continue to decline or stay flat while the asa grows.
> 
> If they are satisfied with being pushed aside and marginalized, they will continue to ignore the customer base. It appears that's exactly what they want. Baffling.



exactly!!!!!!!


----------



## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I found out a long time ago that I cannot judge distances. Always used a range finder even back in the 70s to hunt. Before that, I never shot over 25 yards while hunting. I have shot only one 3D in my life and found that every target from 25 yds to 45 yds looks the same and I lost about $100 worth of arrows in one day.

Since field archery is dying, I would love to shoot 3D. We have 3D animals set up on our range every day and I still cannot judge the yardage. I promise that I would not take anything away from the unknown shooters. I only want to shoot outdoors without losing all my arrows and I do not get a thrill when I do guess the distance right.


----------



## liverlover (Jan 29, 2010)

I think it would be a good idea because there are a lot of great shooters that can't judge yardage and that would make it more competitive for everyone, besides you still have to make the shot. Here in our state we are going to have a known yardage championship shoot in 2015, should be interesting.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Known distance classes have proven to be VERY popular. They are VERY popular with new 3D archers. The popularity also includes continued participation by some archers. The positive impact of Known distance 3D very obviously far out weighs the negativity from some veteran 3D archers.

Maybe just maybe a _very _small number of veteran 3D'ers quit because Known distance was implemented. However, I do not know of a single 3D'er that quit the ASA because Known distance classes were created but it is very obvious many archers are in the game or stayed in the game due to Known distance classes.

Whether you like Known 3D or not the fact remains that it is GOOD for archery in general and 3D archery specifically.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, the IBO needs something. The way ASA K45 is growing the class alone will surpass attendance of Regions. 
ASA Florida - 115
ASA Illinois - 127
ASA Classic - 108


----------



## 3SixtyOutdoors (Sep 14, 2012)

I have shot plenty of IBO events bc I lived in NW ohio now that I moved to NC and shot some ASA I have no desire to go back to the cluster that the IBO (except semi and pro) is. Takes too long to shoot with out a shotgun start. no breaking of groups. even the regions I shot this year was better put together than all of the ibos I have been too. I know they didnt have as many shooters but it would be nice to see some improvments made to the IBO setup


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Tired of hearing groups aren't broken up. I shot WV and Erie this year and groups were broken up at both. I know they've had a history of not doing this but this year they have at least at the shoots I've attended. Just saying.


----------



## Air_Raid (Dec 27, 2009)

Yes. Obviously better attendance is a good thing.


----------



## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

Bring it on. I think it would be good for attendance. I know it's not my cup of tea but that's OK. I find judging yardage to be one of my favorite aspects of the game. It's one part of the puzzle. It's also one of the skill sets that must be mastered to be competitive and a big part of the challenge that is 3d archery <---- to me. I don't think for a second though that the reasons I enjoy 3d have to be the same as reasons for why other people enjoy it. I personally enjoy the trek through the woods from target to target. My quads were killing me after day one at worlds and I loved the fact that it was just one more aspect of the challenge. I wouldn't like shooting a circuit of known distance targets with short walks as much, again this is just me talking about what I enjoy. 3d can be enjoyed in different ways for different reasons by everyone, so let's see more choices that will result in more growth.

As far as back ups go, I know it happens but just don't run into it very often whatsoever, certainly nothing excessive. When it's slight I appreciate a little breather to try and get my head right.

To the guy above that is insinuating that a triple crown champion is not one heck of a shooter and deserving of the title or perhaps that the title means nothing... I don't know what to say other than, thank you very much for not being a participant in the IBO shoots. We don't want you there anyhow, unless maybe you have a major attitude overhaul. Then, please feel free to join us and find out who the best shooter of the day/weekend is.


----------



## RJseniorpro (Jan 12, 2009)

I started shooting IBO in 1988 and after 25 years I decided to take 2014 off from the IBO and yes, I missed the competition. I have always looked at ASA and IBO as two different orgs just doing their thing and tried to prepare for the tournaments with different set ups and Bow speed. Things are changing and I can understand the difficulty of new archers trying to learn to judge distance,( which takes years to master), they get frustrated and give up. I am all for known distance classes for people to enjoy our great sport. I believe within 2 years the ASA known classes will be the largest classes and the sponsors will be putting BIG BUCKS in these classes. Do the math at the ASA known classes this year, new archers are filling the ranges and having a blast. At every pro am I attended this year people would ask me how I became so good at judging and it got me thinking of how many years I worked and worked at learning the animals at every distance, I am not sure if I would go thru that process again, SO YES, add known to IBO if you want the org to grow.


----------



## webster2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Known distances...no. But why not mark the 12 ring so you can actually SEE it without using binocs? That would clarify where the 'spot' is without making it easier to hit...and speed up the flow of the wandering masses.


----------



## elkhuntinut (Oct 16, 2006)

I think anything that gets people involved is a good thing. It can't hurt


----------



## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

Bullseyebry1 said:


> The 2014 IBO Worlds registration as of Friday 08-01-14, was less than 1,100 people, we used to get over that in MBO alone and over 5,000 at a shoot.


That was my first thought when I looked up the results from this years worlds...I was looking for the additional pages. 100 Pros, 150 people in Semi, 1000 people MBO...those were the days.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Give people a choice.

I think Known is a good thing to bring in more shooters. Just don't push it on the people who don't want to shoot it, like the ASA has.


----------



## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

Mark1976 said:


> A better question would be why not? I can't wrap my head around not having a known class and why anyone would be against it? If it brings more participation and allows people who might not do it without a known class, why would you say no, no, no?!? It makes no sense! It literally doesn't hurt anyone to allow some the use of a rangefinder that either struggle with yardage for whatever reason or don't have the time or finances it takes to learn, but would love to be able to compete! From am orginizations stand point, it brings in more revenue, and that's just good business!


i think that the main issue (atleast one) is that it would mean that every qualifier would need to have a range set up for known. that being said, clubs around here have a hard enough time keeping one range in good shape, and in the northeast some clubs simply dont have the space.

to have known and unknown on the same range would be disaster. 

also adding to the already 30 or so classes is not trivial. but since we are on the topic, why not have known cub class thru open known classes....does not seem fair to make the kids learn to judge if they are not going to need the skill as an adult. so 30 known classes added to make it nice for everyone.....


----------



## sstarnes (Feb 1, 2003)

silhouette13 said:


> to have known and unknown on the same range would be disaster.
> 
> ..


In the ASA, the known 50 shoots the same range as the open Pro's at the same time and it doesn't seem to be a problem.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

sstarnes said:


> In the ASA, the known 50 shoots the same range as the open Pro's at the same time and it doesn't seem to be a problem.


We have known and unkown at my range. Doesn't seem to be a problem. The only problem we have is the known class is getting bigger all the time. Bigge than the Open Money class by twice as much.


----------



## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

to be clear i am not opposed to Known. how do you assure the known group in front is not sharing the news with the unknown behind? no rangefinders are allowed on the course for unknown....how does one keep them away from other groups? not being a jerk, i am really curious. i know a bunch of folks up here who would welcome known.




sagecreek said:


> We have known and unkown at my range. Doesn't seem to be a problem. The only problem we have is the known class is getting bigger all the time. Bigge than the Open Money class by twice as much.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

silhouette13 said:


> to be clear i am not opposed to Known. how do you assure the known group in front is not sharing the news with the unknown behind? no rangefinders are allowed on the course for unknown....how does one keep them away from other groups? not being a jerk, i am really curious. i know a bunch of folks up here who would welcome known.


There is no way of controlling it for sure. It's based on the honor systema and self-policing. We run lanes out one side of the trail and then shoot back the other side. There is usually other groups standing around everywhere keeping an eye open to see what's going on. It works for us with no complaints or bickering of cheating.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

silhouette13 said:


> to be clear i am not opposed to Known. how do you assure the known group in front is not sharing the news with the unknown behind? no rangefinders are allowed on the course for unknown....how does one keep them away from other groups? not being a jerk, i am really curious. i know a bunch of folks up here who would welcome known.


If people want to cheat they will. Range finders themselves can in no way cause people to cheat. People that cheat really do not benefit much from a range finder. By far and away the best way for someone to cheat is to simply write down whatever score they want. Another popular way to cheat is for everyone in the group to talk "yardage" prior to shooting and then again after each shot. 

Range finders do not increase the likely hood of folks cheating. The folks that insist range finders on the course increase the incidences of cheating are fundamentally against known distance 3D. Being against known distance 3D clouds their reasoning behind thinking range finders increase cheating. When an archer yanks a shot 10" left or right it isn't because of a yardage estimating error and when he writes an 8 down instead of a 5 it isn't because he is or is not using a range finder.

Folks that lie (cheat) are going to do it regardless of whether a rangefinder is in the group ahead of them. We all know folks that were hard core cheater (liars) right up until they decided to quit for some really "good" reason. The announced reason is never because they have realized either everyone knows they are cheating OR that folks are watching them so closely they can no longer cheat and post high scores.

I've known a couple hard core cheaters and I couldn't have cared less........ Well one of them bugged me some years ago because he kept asking me why I no longer shot in the money Hunter class against him. In fact everyone stopped shooting that class and I expect he thinks it was because he was so much better than the rest of us! :chortle:


----------



## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

in no way saying a range finder causes cheating...just that IBO rules are they are not allowed on the range period, so if the range was used by K classes and open, then that would mean(to me) that groups cannot even be near each other to avoid incident.

i am also well aware that a cheater will find a way t o cheat.

in fairness i am in IBO only land with WQ clubs having one course and mulitiple stakes, so with out ever shooting an ASA i really cant see it in my minds eye.

you guys are telling me that Levi could be 1 target a head of Keith Trail shooting the same course same time but one known and one unknown? and the distances are published then verified with a range finder? of you must have a range finder to shoot it?

honestly, not trying to argue either way, just want to understand the logistics.


----------



## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

also my wondering is more of the " someone claims someone else is cheating", which seems almost as prevalent as cheating. if some one says they saw someone using the finder....weather or not they did" if a finder is near them how could one really officiate?


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

In ASA national events, there is not any know class shooters on the same range as unknown shooters.


----------



## sstarnes (Feb 1, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> In ASA national events, there is not any know class shooters on the same range as unknown shooters.


I shot London Ky in the K50 class and we shot the same range at the same time as the open Pro class. At the Classic I shot K50 and we shot the same range at the same time as semi Pro.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

silhouette13 said:


> in no way saying a range finder causes cheating...just that IBO rules are they are not allowed on the range period, so if the range was used by K classes and open, then that would mean(to me) that groups cannot even be near each other to avoid incident.
> 
> i am also well aware that a cheater will find a way t o cheat.
> 
> ...


A simple tweak of the rule fixes the issue. If the IBO is even half way concerned about cheating they'd bust up groups AND half a range official on the course such that he can be called to ANY target. As it is arrow calling is much "looser" at IBO tournaments than ASA. At least is or was in IBO AHC than ASA Hunter, K45 and K50.

Yes, Levi, Keith, Kent, Scott and Chance were all on the same courses while some of us had rangefinders and some did not........ I'm fairly certain that is the very first time my name has been in the same sentence as the supa' stas'! :becky: 



sagecreek said:


> In ASA national events, there is not any know class shooters on the same range as unknown shooters.


See below....



sstarnes said:


> I shot London Ky in the K50 class and we shot the same range at the same time as the open Pro class. At the Classic I shot K50 and we shot the same range at the same time as semi Pro.


----------



## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

thanks for the insights, i have to say that the IBO in new england is stepping up by having ibo officials walking the range through out the event. 

whereas ASA seems to kind of walk out and back and IBO is a trail type shoot how would one get word that an issue was in need of immediate ruling for an average club that has some walk through s? 

BTW i am an IBO rep for NH, i enforce rules as written or ruled on by the leadership, that being said i would support K classes in IBO, i do feel it would bring loads of spots shooters and field guys into the fray in this area. i actually would shoot it myself.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

If they did, it would have to be a separate range completely (or someone who shot on Friday could give the yardages to an unmarked shooter that was shooting Saturday). Is there going to be enough attendance to justify an entirely separate 40 target range for marked yardage only (maybe they could work it a bit and get 2 or 3 different max yardage stakes for K50, K45, K30)?


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Supermag1 said:


> If they did, it would have to be a separate range completely (or someone who shot on Friday could give the yardages to an unmarked shooter that was shooting Saturday). Is there going to be enough attendance to justify an entirely separate 40 target range for marked yardage only (maybe they could work it a bit and get 2 or 3 different max yardage stakes for K50, K45, K30)?


No you do not need an entirely separate course! How long would it take to move the stake a few steps in any direction? No longer than it takes to walk the distance of the course. 

Yes, the IBO would have to adapt to some extent to what customers want. Their inability or desire to do so is why the IBO basically has not improved or grown their game in 20+ years.


----------



## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

Im for IBO known only if all shooters in the known classes can obtain a sponsorship from Massengil, Summers Eve , Kotex or Monistat 7 and proudly wear a shirt with theyre sponsors logo's


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Ouch!


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pincher said:


> Im for IBO known only if all shooters in the known classes can obtain a sponsorship from Massengil, Summers Eve , Kotex or Monistat 7 and proudly wear a shirt with theyre sponsors logo's


If they are willing pay all my expenses for every tournament I'd wear *their* logos proudly! *I'm* a grown acss man, I think I can handle it!


----------



## NIIDEEP (Oct 12, 2013)

I am one of the three who started the IBO. We started it using the same targets at all three shoots. We had long lines back then. Our club made 4 different ranges so the lines wernt as long as some. We had unmarked yards. Times change and almost everyone uses binoculars and rangefinders. So just leave it unknown but let everyone use rangefinders. Its 3D guys not NFAA spot shooting. It was to be like hunting not target shooting. When we started no one thought it would go over, almost no one thought 3D would go over. 
You have to listen to people and make changes. I stepped down from the IBO because I didnt have time had to much going on. Wish I would have hung around now. The guys I shot with had alot of ideas to keep people coming back.


----------



## tshoyt23 (Apr 21, 2009)

I personally don't shoot known yardage and enjoy the yardage judging aspect of the game. But that's me. That's not someone else. As someone who shoots often, I would not be offended in any way by someone else wanting to shoot known yardage for WHATEVER reason. It simply doesn't matter why. Who am I to say "no you can't play, go somewhere else." It's not like these will be shooters who will be competing against me. They will have their own class and compete against one another. I would love to see these tournaments grow. My biggest fear is not whether we let individuals who excel at spots come into the 3d game..... It's whether the 3d game will still be around in years to come. If it can help us grow, then let it happen. All it does is bring more people to the events we love to partake in. 

I don't shoot ASA. I would love to, but due to the travel and expense I just haven't worked it into my budget. If I can find a way I will eventually. So as a person who shoots IBO regularly, I don't see why this would be a bad thing. It doesn't ruin anything. Classes will still exsist that allow us to persue the game we prefer. I guess I just don't know why anyone would say your game doesn't count, so you can't play. 

More archers equals more strength and staying power for the organization.


----------



## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

in fairness though, if you are going to have a top class for known shooters.....it would be logical to have a known class for the cubs through yth 15-17. if you are focused on K for your end aspirations, why should you be forced to develop judging skills up to that point where it doesnt matter. 

simply not fair. i think the ASA should adopt this too since it seems to be what the IBO is judged on...the ASAness of the IBO.


----------

