# Do You Worry About The Wrong Thing With Arrows



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

I'm not sure I worry about the wrong thing with arrows, but I did find out this year that FOC was important. I saw a noticeable problem with long distance grouping when FOC was too low (< 9%). That is when I had the discussion about Carbon Tech arrows with you. Once again, thanks for the info and advice. 

I agree, spine is probably the hardest thing to determine and measure. Its easy to put an arrow on a scale and find total weight or find FOC. Spine? That's a bit tougher. Plus, bow design comes into play. How many found out earlier this year that the Martin S4 needed a stiffer spined arrow?  Made no sense to me, but that was the overwhelming consensus. This particular parameter seems to need a great deal of experimentation and patience to find YOUR right combination of arrow size, length and point weight. Some of John Dudley's articles have stated the same.

Thanks for printing Rick's article. A little reminder is always welcome. :wink:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

ttt


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

I think that BH, WVhasbeen and some others are right if your going to error make it to the too stiff side. I proved that to myself while working up some 2613's. If I put what shot the best through my OnTarget program they come up way to stiff, but man are they shooting.


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## bowhnter7 (Dec 6, 2004)

Ya I have read that article. Good reading. I wish I could hand one to each bowhunter that comes in the shop and wants all his GT shafts measured out and matched up. Ya right like he's gonna tell the difference between a few grains. Hey customers always right.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

bowhnter7 said:


> Ya I have read that article. Good reading. I wish I could hand one to each bowhunter that comes in the shop and wants all his GT shafts measured out and matched up. Ya right like he's gonna tell the difference between a few grains. Hey customers always right.


Even if you did had it to them...they would just tell you that Rick doesn't know what he is talking about:embara:


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## bowhnter7 (Dec 6, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> Even if you did had it to them...they would just tell you that Rick doesn't know what he is talking about:embara:


I bet they wouldn't even know who he is.


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Thnx. BH!*

That was very interesting! It's a wonder I can hit anything! Now I am gonna worry about mismatched arrows!!


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## VA Vince (Aug 30, 2005)

*Arrows*

Before I only tried to shoot the right spined arrow. Now after one of GRIV's class's, I need a arrow and nock straitner. I couldnt believe how bad the nock ends of the arrows were out.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

VA Vince said:


> Before I only tried to shoot the right spined arrow. Now after one of GRIV's class's, I need a arrow and nock straitner. I couldnt believe how bad the nock ends of the arrows were out.


I was debating getting one of those as well. But what about using pins? There is no nock to really fix.....


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## VA Vince (Aug 30, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> I was debating getting one of those as well. But what about using pins? There is no nock to really fix.....


I think it would straiten the pin. When I used the tool to stariten my arrows, it checks the swaged(sp) end of the arrow in the dial. You then find the bad area and give a push to the poker do-dad. Griv said it would work with the X7 eclipses that have the bushing in the end, so I amagine it would work with pins.
I will let you know, I am getting some of the new g-nock pins. I will get the machine and let you know.


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## cetorP (Nov 7, 2003)

*funny*

I had a pretty heated argument with a buddie last summer at a local field round about my navigators. I mentioned that they varied a few grains over the 23 arrows I have in my stable (6 or so grains difference between heaviest and lightest), and he thought I was crazy to still be shooting them (the heay and light of the group). He said he would not shoot anything that varied more than a grain and did not like to even allow that (1 grain +/-). I had no idea about this article at the time, but I was certain you could not tell the diff in 6-7 grains (at least for me- ave Joe) even at an 80 yd target. He was certain you could. We had no grain scale to prove either of our points but I will be saving this info....... (I love to say I told ya so).


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

cetorP said:


> I had a pretty heated argument with a buddie last summer at a local field round about my navigators. I mentioned that they varied a few grains over the 23 arrows I have in my stable (6 or so grains difference between heaviest and lightest), and he thought I was crazy to still be shooting them (the heay and light of the group). He said he would not shoot anything that varied more than a grain and did not like to even allow that (1 grain +/-). I had no idea about this article at the time, but I was certain you could not tell the diff in 6-7 grains (at least for me- ave Joe) even at an 80 yd target. He was certain you could. We had no grain scale to prove either of our points but I will be saving this info....... (I love to say I told ya so).


Well I think you should print the article out and send it to him 

What I would have done was shot a group at 60-80yds with a random handful.:wink: But my Mckinney II's vary in weight by 5 grains or so...they sure where stacking up nice and tight at 90m


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## tjandy (Jun 10, 2005)

Thanks BH, a lot of good infomation there. :thumb:


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## Carroll in MO (Sep 15, 2002)

Hey, thanks Brown Hornet
I read that article when it came out but didn't save it. Now I have it. Thanks again
Carroll


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

tjandy & Carroll and others....you are welcome 

I have posted this in other threads over the last year or two (don't remember when it came out). But it just amazes me the things that people argue about that Rick proved wrong in this article. 

I will admit though that sometimes when building my own arrows I will weight match them....just a little.:embara: But for the most part with quality shafts and components it is really a waste of time IMHO because even when I don't they usually all are within 2 grains of each other anyway.:wink:


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## tjandy (Jun 10, 2005)

I don't even have a grain scale yet.:embara::wink: I do have some arrows that have been tuned to shoot he same though. I think it cost about $6 an arrow. I have found, purchasing the pro shop owners lightly used arrows is the way to go.


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## Man-n-Pink (Nov 7, 2006)

*Thanks BH*

that made for an interesting read.


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

I received in the mail yesterday an article in Bowhunters World? I think(whatever the magazine is that comes with IBO membership) that shows how to make a spine tester for about $40. If I can remember to bring it in tomorrow, I will post the directions on how to do so. 


On a seperate question, if I were to get a dozen arrows - lets say Fatboys - how much variance in spine would there be or should I expect? Then what do I do about it? Do you add more weight to the stiffer spines in the front somehow?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

r49740 said:


> I received in the mail yesterday an article in Bowhunters World? I think(whatever the magazine is that comes with IBO membership) that shows how to make a spine tester for about $40. If I can remember to bring it in tomorrow, I will post the directions on how to do so.
> 
> 
> On a seperate question, if I were to get a dozen arrows - lets say Fatboys - how much variance in spine would there be or should I expect? Then what do I do about it? Do you add more weight to the stiffer spines in the front somehow?


I wouldn't want very much variance I will tell you that. If a shaft is say a .400 spine shaft it better be damn close to that. There is nothing you can do about it but get better shafts. You don't want to put 90 grain points in some arrows....then 100's in others and 110's in a couple if that is what you are thinking.


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

I agree. I would also hope that it wouldn't be that much variance with it. I will be getting some arrows for some foam for next year, and was looking at the Fatboys, so I am hoping there shouldnt be too much variance with them. Any thoughts on that?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

r49740 said:


> I agree. I would also hope that it wouldn't be that much variance with it. I will be getting some arrows for some foam for next year, and was looking at the Fatboys, so I am hoping there shouldnt be too much variance with them. Any thoughts on that?


Haven't heard of problems with the spine on Fatboys....but I know that the spine on my Hippos are great.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Don't know if this will help anyone but I saw some independent (guy didn't work for any of the arrow makers) spine test results a couple years ago. Easton was at the top, along with Carbon Tech. Beman (owned by Easton) was also pretty consistent. Gold Tip and Cartel Triples were at the bottom, i.e. showed the greatest variation.

I shoot Easton's because of my draw length since Carbon Techs are too short. Most normal people would do well with either of those two brands from what I have seen and heard.

Dave


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

The Carbon Tech Arrow are excellent. Very good spine tollerances.
Been shooting them for several years. I am extremely happy with them.
I really have a hard time thinking I can get any better groups with another shaft.

To all of you that dont square the ends of your arrows with a arrow squaring devise you are really missing the boat here. I used to get about seven arrows out of a dozen that flew well together. Since squaring the ends I usually get all twelve to fly together. 

Instead of using my typical 3 -4 doz arrows an outdoor season. I am down to 1.5 doz shafts.

I am shooting a lot better scores and damaging less shafts.
Just remember to use unibushings or pin in the back of your shafts.


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## Bownut61 (Dec 15, 2007)

What an eye opening article. Thanks for posting. I think Santa is bringing me a grain scale but I guess I better ask for a spine tester too. LOL!!!:teeth:


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## AllenRead (Jan 12, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> I was debating getting one of those as well. But what about using pins? There is no nock to really fix.....


It's why I quit using pins. The CX pins that I had on my CXL's were horrible for straightness. I switched to nocks and immediately picked up points in league.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

bowhnter7 said:


> Ya I have read that article. Good reading. I wish I could hand one to each bowhunter that comes in the shop and wants all his GT shafts measured out and matched up. Ya right like he's gonna tell the difference between a few grains. Hey customers always right.


Yeah, you would get a --- Rick who??


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

VA Vince said:


> Before I only tried to shoot the right spined arrow. Now after one of GRIV's class's, I need a arrow and nock straitner. I couldnt believe how bad the nock ends of the arrows were out.


 This is my confused look:tongue: What do you mean? Ar eyou talking about nock fit? Please to explain!
John


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Heres one more theory to toss out there. A common way to get your arrows to weigh the same (I've done it myself, too much time on my hands) is lay out all your arrows heaviest to lightest and your tips lightest to heaviest. Viola!! Arrows all within 1gr.

So if weight is least important in carbons and spine most important I have effectivly mismatched all my arrow spines to get identical wt Granted the average archer will not notice, but it is a theory:tongue:
John


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## VA Vince (Aug 30, 2005)

sharkred7 said:


> This is my confused look:tongue: What do you mean? Ar eyou talking about nock fit? Please to explain!
> John


Not nock fit, when you install the nock into the shaft you can install it crooked. No where enough to see with the eye, but with the nock straitner you will see it. The dial indicater rolls around the nock end ( not the actual nock ) and will show you the bad areas so you can straiten. 

If shooting at longer differances ie: fita or field, a perfectly strait arrow will fly better than a not so strait arrow. If I can get a few extra x's by doing this, I am going to try it. Hope this helps, its kinda hard to explain. Send me a PM and I will give you the website for the tool. Not sure if I can post it here, they are not a sponser.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

You can include name of the website in the body of your message, just not a link.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

sharkred7 said:


> Heres one more theory to toss out there. A common way to get your arrows to weigh the same (I've done it myself, too much time on my hands) is lay out all your arrows heaviest to lightest and your tips lightest to heaviest. Viola!! Arrows all within 1gr.
> 
> So if weight is least important in carbons and spine most important I have effectivly mismatched all my arrow spines to get identical wt Granted the average archer will not notice, but it is a theory:tongue:
> John


That theory is correct but the effects are negligible with that small amount of matching.

Weight matching is important. The example of Jay Barrs and the 9 grain weight difference was for an indoor tournament. That would not have held up outdoors.

I believe that spine consistency is important, as is correct spine to allow the arrow to respond to the column load applied by the bow.

However, it is not reasonable to give up weight consistency for the last bit of spine consistency.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Thanks for the info! Every time I think I am getting this sport figured out I find more that I don't know:embara:
John


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

The article on making a spine tester is found in the latest (Feb) issue of Bowhunting World. Richard Combs' article is on page 15.

Thanks BH for the info. Very helpful.


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## dhunt1 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Points*

I have used the CT Cheetahs for hunting and 3-d, most seemed to be totally sold on Carbon Express shafts. Many told me i was crazy for not shooting the CE shafts but i never needed a reason to change. I'm setting up for Field and i think I'll just keep using the CT arrows. I have found that point consistency seemed to be more important than shaft weight. Well just my 2 cents.


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## Dewboy (Apr 19, 2005)

This article deserves a ttt. More people need to read it! It's NOT outdated!


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