# Tiller tuning with grip position



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I believe the trend is going towards lowering the grip in order to bring the nocking point closer to center possible, the final result shall be a straighter nock travel. 
My OK bows from 2011 up to today started moving the grip lower slightly year by year, from dst40 to abs38 then from abs38 to abs40, now again to abs42 and abs44.
The bow geometry is a limiting factor, how to do it, what is a gain and trade off? 
In order to make the Cam's move the string symmetrical they must move the nocking point to the center, the cables getting symmetrical, you got easier tuneability....
I don't believe in a tiler tuning not on modern (high end) bows, I don't touch the limb screws, they stay equal top and bottom. Because, let say the top and bottom cams are twins, also the top and bottom limbs are equal lengths, if you preload one of the limbs with diferent pressure the Cams (a point on the Cam) will yes rotate the same amount of distance but with different speed and that will throw the nock towards the slower cam. 
Now if your nocking point (d-loop) is closer to center - or as is the case with latest OK bows the d-loop is absolutely centered - the nocking point travel is getting closer to a straight line, that is a goal. Just look at the bareshaft flights, how you cure the nock high? by lowering the nocking point (and not by lowering the resting point).
So I believe some companies want to take out of your head too much tinkering about setup and tune, and they lowering the grip.

I do creep tuning, this to clear a pressure on the grip, and I can tune my cams - in relative to a grip pressure - to have a nocking point travel in a clear straight line.

Now, back to OP, a position of the grip is not effecting the hold as much the geometry of the grip in combination of weight distribution on the entire bow. Will definitely result a slightly different draw length and anchor point.
I am finding not easy jumping between my dst40 and abs40 bows, the grip height is about 1.5" different.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Same here as bigHUN. I don't believe in tiller tuning, not with today's bow, not even back to 1999. You'd have to be real, real good to make and see a difference. If anything, tiller tuning may be hiding something wrong with your grip or the way you have your bow set up...


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Agree with the other guys. I can take 4 turns out of one or the other limb and I can practically not even tell, at least on my Tribute. My Supra Max I haven't tried it, but I keep it even on that bow. 

The Hoyt, though, has the knocking point a good 3" above string center if you set up with the arrow through the Berger hole. A bear to tune, but it holds absolutely like a rock compared to my Supra Max. I can just grab the thing any ol which way I want and it's like granite as I pull through the shot. I'm switching to it for league and state indoor due to elbow issues and am looking forward to how it affects my scores at league tonight. Well maybe not looking _forward_ to it but.....

So for me, it tends to be knocking point with respect to string center, and where the grip is located on the bow.....

DM


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

So what effect do you guys feel the lower grip has on aiming? 
Personally I don't think tiller has near the effect on the bows today as they did years ago, my belief is because parallel limbs limit the effect of tiller, the difference on my freak was very slight at best but still noticeable. I did it after talking with a friend who also used to be a PSE pro staffer and engineer at PSE who runs 10# heavier limbs on the bottom of his freak.
I know I'm old school and tend to do things the way we did in the late 90's before anyone ran back bars and weights


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

No effect.....


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

The Hoyt pro comp elite Has the grip in the center of bow and the next year they went back to putting the grip below center I was told the grip below center is a better aiming bow


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

redman said:


> The Hoyt pro comp elite Has the grip in the center of bow and the next year they went back to putting the grip below center I was told the grip below center is a better aiming bow


Got that backwards. They lowered it on the Pro Comp. Raised it back up on the Podium.

They even had it in advertising about the lowered grip position (3/8" lower) on the Pro Comp. Nothing was mentioned about it moving back up on the Podium.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Keep in mind that Hoyt uses an asymmetrical cam system to deal with their grip position. One that works quite well although complex to tune if you aren't familiar with it. 
Them changing the grip location without altering the cams seems like poor engineering. 

Grant


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Keep in mind that Hoyt uses an asymmetrical cam system to deal with their grip position. One that works quite well although complex to tune if you aren't familiar with it.
> Them changing the grip location without altering the cams seems like poor engineering.
> 
> Grant


Or just how much adjustment is available in their cam system.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Keep in mind that Hoyt uses an asymmetrical cam system to deal with their grip position. One that works quite well although complex to tune if you aren't familiar with it.
> Them changing the grip location without altering the cams seems like poor engineering.
> 
> Grant


I agree. In particular, forcing the knocking point above the center of the string complicates the way the wheels/cams have to manage recovery to brace height while maintaining a straight knock travel. Better compromises try to get the knocking point as close to the center of the string as possible without sacrificing too much in terms of leverage on the grip. This makes the cams easier to design...

Mathews has, I believe, achieved a "stock" knocking point exactly at the center of the string with their TRG (If I read about the bow correctly that is), but the grip is correspondingly further down in the riser. I've never shot one, though, so I have no idea what it actually feels like to shoot. But that's one extreme on the compromise scale.

My Hoyt Tribute, OTOH, has the stock knocking point several inches above the string center (to accomodate finger shooting I suspect) and the grip correspondingly higher on the riser. And with traditional wheels at that. So it holds on target absolutely like 1000 tons of granite, but it's nearly impossible to get a good tune shooting it with a d-loop and release aid, arrow through the Berger hole and 90 degs to the string. Moving the rest as far down as possible, almost into the shelf, helps but you still need to detime the wheels a bit to get a good bareshaft.

Even on my PSE, I have found running the arrow slightly below the Berger hole seems to give me a little better result in terms of hold vs tuning. And it's knocking point is pretty close to string center.... 

So I would agree going higher and higher is probably not a good design decision...

DM


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

PM sent to you.


thawk said:


> Hi all, I wanted to get some of your views on making your bow aim better and what effects grip location has on a bow.
> I recently got my PSE Beast and have been trying to get it to aim better. I have been shooting a Freak the past year and a half+ and got that now to aim very well in no time at all.
> The specs on the two bows are almost the same (the beast took the freaks place) but PSE made some changes along the way. The grip is both wider and about 1/2 lower in the riser.
> I have always had the best luck with with the bottom limbs about 1 - 1 1/2 turns in more then the top, this tiller always seemed to make the bow aim better for me, I set the beast up the same and it aimed all over the place, changed weights everywhere and it just never settled, tonight I tried even tiller and it helped.
> ...


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

dmacey said:


> I agree. In particular, forcing the knocking point above the center of the string complicates the way the wheels/cams have to manage recovery to brace height while maintaining a straight knock travel. Better compromises try to get the knocking point as close to the center of the string as possible without sacrificing too much in terms of leverage on the grip. This makes the cams easier to design...
> 
> Mathews has, I believe, achieved a "stock" knocking point exactly at the center of the string with their TRG (If I read about the bow correctly that is), but the grip is correspondingly further down in the riser. I've never shot one, though, so I have no idea what it actually feels like to shoot. But that's one extreme on the compromise scale.
> 
> ...


Wheels are a symmetrical system, so that gives you a good idea of why matching riser geometry to cam system is kind of important. I'd be curious to see what the riser geometry in a bow designed specifically for wheels would be. I'm guessing it would be closer to symmetrical in design. 

Grant


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Wheels are a symmetrical system, so that gives you a good idea of why matching riser geometry to cam system is kind of important. I'd be curious to see what the riser geometry in a bow designed specifically for wheels would be. I'm guessing it would be closer to symmetrical in design.
> 
> Grant


The OK Archery line of Absolute bows address this.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Wheels are a symmetrical system, so that gives you a good idea of why matching riser geometry to cam system is kind of important. I'd be curious to see what the riser geometry in a bow designed specifically for wheels would be. I'm guessing it would be closer to symmetrical in design.
> 
> Grant


Well all my old wheel bows from the Days of Yore were stolen out of my apartment several years ago, so I don't have them around to put a tape measure to and see (Hoyt Prostar, a magnesium riser Pro Vantage and a Pro Hunter). But I suspect they were a similar design to my Tribute, intended primarily for finger shooting and probably were situated similarly as far as where the grip was in the handle. I do remember vaguely that my Prostar needed detiming of the wheels to tune right when I shot it with a release, but it wasn't quite as bad as my Tribute. I never shot the others with a release aid, though, and I don't recall a lot of grief with them.

The Tribute is so touchy that it slings arrows way knock high - unshootable knock high - at full poundage no matter where the knock point and rest is, or how I adjust the wheel timing or what stiffness shafts are used. With fingers (Mediterranean style), it is well behaved on the up/down regardless of where the poundage is, with only a little adjustment needed as you vary the poundage setting. With fingers, though, the point of pressure on the string is about two fingers width below the actual arrow knocking point, which strikes me as meaning the high knocking point is on purpose.

So I think you're right about the need for symmetry in a wheel design...

DM


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> Same here as bigHUN. I don't believe in tiller tuning, not with today's bow, not even back to 1999. You'd have to be real, real good to make and see a difference. If anything, tiller tuning may be hiding something wrong with your grip or the way you have your bow set up...


Just out of curiosity what do you consider "real good" to be able to see a difference? And it's funny you picked 1999 in this response because that year I shot off against Terry Ragsdale and Rodger Willet when we had a three way tie at Redding outdoor nationals.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

thawk said:


> Just out of curiosity what do you consider "real good" to be able to see a difference? And it's funny you picked 1999 in this response because that year I shot off against Terry Ragsdale and Rodger Willet when we had a three way tie at Redding outdoor nationals.


Working at archer shop (only archery) I've had to tune some old, old bows. Even having to find retired people, like PSE and before Pearson was sold in 2009 (they had a old timer there). How to say, feed back, the right kick out? Turn buckles are something else, but once you learn... Same with the guide lines that use to be on bows. One adjustment on a old turn buckle was bring the wheels closer together, something of timing. Tiller was off when set by the instructions, but the owner loved it and shot his first ever Robin Hood. I shot his bow and there was a marked difference. 
I still have the instructions of the old retired PSE employee.

Still, today, bows are so much more tighter for tolerance all the way around. Parallel limb bows making it all the harder to measure tiller difference. 

And no different than you noting the one PSE shooter with miss-matched limb by 10 pounds. I had one Martin come in with miss-matched limbs from the factory. 6 turns of the limb bolt out to make it shoot (50 and 60 pound limbs). Owner had to order new limbs. 

Tiller effects much and especially nock height or rest adjustment. Today so many bows tune to near zero to 1/16" nock high. And meaning nock travel is much better.

Hand placement to riser has changed. Well, the grip angles have changed and now bows being offered grips that change angles.

So for a modern bow, yes, you'd have to be "gooder" than the average shooter.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

thawk said:


> *Just out of curiosity what do you consider "real good" to be able to see a difference?* And it's funny you picked 1999 in this response because that year I shot off against Terry Ragsdale and Rodger Willet when we had a three way tie at Redding outdoor nationals.


You can't ask that here. :lol:

I've played with tiller on newer Hoyts. You can use it to change the POI effects of varied grip pressures, such as minimizing the push from "palming it". I've brought it up here in the past and it didn't receive much welcome. I haven't seen improvement with holding characteristics.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of my questions when it comes to tiller is from what I have learned in the last year or so from tuning. Nuts and bolts sets a d-loop and then never moves it, he turns the limb bolts to change the height of the d-loop and this also affects cam sync. 

so

If you have a bow that is producing really good arrow flight and it has good nock travel to allow it to produce that great arrow flight then how can you start turning limb bolts and end up with good arrow flight when turning those limb bolts has now changed everything?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

It does change some things. What I have learned is that you cannot just turn the top or bottom limbs without also changing the nocking point if you wish to maintain true arrow flight. Tillering a bow alters the angle the bow rests in your hand and the angle the string attaches to the release. 

It should not mess with cam sync unless you've gone ape-crazy with your tillering...


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, i had a buddy bragging about his tiller tuning a few weeks ago and how good the bow was holding but he had horrible arrow flight and I mentioned to him you can change the angle of your riser but then you have to get things back such as cam sync and arrow flight.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Cool, i had a buddy bragging about his tiller tuning a few weeks ago and how good the bow was holding but he had horrible arrow flight and I mentioned to him you can change the angle of your riser but then you have to get things back such as cam sync and arrow flight.


Good thing you were there to set him straight!! :thumbs_up


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

cbrunson said:


> You can't ask that here. :lol:


Well, you can ask, you just may not get the answer you want (or any answer at all).

As for adjusting tiller, that's like any other aspect of bow tuning: it's best to vary only one item at a time, in my experience. For example, when I'm setting my wheel/cam timing, I put a bowsquare on the bow before I go to the press and make a note of where the knocking point is. Then after I've put the cable twists in, I recheck the knocking point and put it back to where it was if it's moved. In the past when I've experimented with tiller I did the same thing. 

If you just put twists in the cables and go shoot, well, that's 2 things that have changed at once - wheel/cam timing and knocking point - which is difficult troubleshooting at best. Even if it gives a good result, you're a bit in the dark about which change was the fix. This can become a real problem later on when you change cables, say, and you have to do it all over again but the bow is doing something altogether different than what you fixed before. Say, it's slinging the arrows knock low this time, etc.

I have ample experience with doing this the wrong way, I promise . 

DM


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Padgett said:


> ...*he turns the limb bolts* to change the height of the d-loop and this also affects cam sync....


Wrong, it does not effect the sync, it effects the moment of inertia. The given point on both cams may turn/travel the same amount...but with different speed, you can speculate what is happening with the moving nock then!
If the final result "producing really good arrow flight" very likely is just a pure coincidence but mathematically is incorrect. "producing really good arrow flight" for whom? To a starter fella maybe up to 20 yards...............


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

The first biggest mistake people doing choosing a bow by the look and advertisement,
the next mistake is setting the rest to berger hole, and
the next is tying the d-loop in relation to the resting point.
All backwards, starting with buying a junk...even than is not a big deal if you know what and how to do next
If that bow have let say identical cams and limbs that shall be a good starting point, half of the hassle is eliminated.
Do you guys remember years ago what was this thing called?

























Masses making drawboards today and any kind of transformers presses and shooting stands and sh**t, but all missed the point.........these pictures are at least ten years old, just look at this guy what he made from couple bucks.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Not a bad DIY build there. Was it as accurate as Easton's mapper?


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

montigre said:


> Not a bad DIY build there. Was it as accurate as Easton's mapper?


These are two different things, the 3 pictures represent a machine what directly draws a line of the nock travel, the point is to see how straight that line is, you adjust the bow cam timing to your liking. 
The Easton DW scale had a different purpose to show a powerstroke, but it was not accurate as advertised.
Why? 
Because when you draw the bow it logged the increase and decrease of the weight but in relation to what? Not to the length of the nock travel and not even to the length of the time the nock traveled. Based on what they can then draw a graph? I would call that a marketing scam but I don't want to be chased from folks cashed out a larger chunk for that miracle machine.
Lets start with my explanation how that thing may work trustfully. 
How can we mathematically show the time? By Hz (=hertz) in example. One Hz=1 second, 10 Hz=1/10 of a second, 100 Hz=1/100 of a second. Now draw the bow from point A to point B within x amount of Hz logging the DW in every 150Hz in example. That would give you a DFC something like this:









I made this graph on my draw board by manually measuring the distance traveled by 1/4" (or so) anand writing the DW into my chart from where the excell could generate it.

Sorry, this got too far t:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Don't be sorry. I have not graphically mapped nock travel nor DFC having been taught to go by feel and reaction of the arrow off the rest. I enjoy learning. :smile:


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

montigre said:


> ...taught to go by feel and reaction of the arrow off the rest. I enjoy learning. :smile:


 :thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

montigre said:


> Don't be sorry. I have not graphically mapped nock travel nor DFC having been taught to go by feel and reaction of the arrow off the rest. I enjoy learning. :smile:


I haven't either and don't plan on it. I've sent off one bow to have properly strung, a Frankenstein bow (single cam). Roger, M&R Custom Strings, checked nock travel and came up with what seemed to be ideal cam position (different than I thought). It shot great set up straight forward. I sold the bow and sent instructions with it. The new owner loved it and has since put two sets of strings on it. Let the cam rotate from optimum and arrow flight is the pits....


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Sense the topic started off as a aiming topic and has turned into a tuning topic, let's ask this question to cove both topics.

What do you guys feel is more important, a bow that aims great or getting perfect arrow flight?
Of course both is preferred but.... If you had to choose one being a 10 the other 6

I would pick the bow that aims good. A bow that sits makes every part of my shot better and I have had bows that had 3+ Inch tears in paper that were easier to shoot mid 550's with then bows that had better arrow flight but didn't aim as well


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I can't think of a bow I've owned that didn't aim well, short front stab, long front stab, long front stabs and 1 and 2 back bars.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

thawk said:


> Sense the topic started off as a aiming topic and has turned into a tuning topic, let's ask this question to cove both topics.
> 
> What do you guys feel is more important, a bow that aims great or getting perfect arrow flight?
> Of course both is preferred but.... If you had to choose one being a 10 the other 6
> ...


For me, good arrow flight is definitely more important. Or putting it another way, I can usually figure out a way to get practically any bow to sit still, with my PSE being the only mild exception. And to be honest, if I played with the stabilization a bit more, I bet I could figure it out too. I did retune it a while back to accommodate my natural grip and that calmed it down considerably.

But for me, and this is just my personal experience, I've always gotten the best grouping with as near a perfect bareshaft as I can get. It's just the most forgiving setup for me, especially when I start making mistakes on the front end like collapsing due to fatigue or torquing the grip, etc. I've tried slightly knock-high/left tunings for better rest clearance, and I always was ever so slightly messier at the target with it.

My recurve is the only counter-example, though I don't shoot it well enough to even bother with a tune. I just run 4" feathers and let them swish their way to the target. But on the very rare occasion that I have 3 good shots in a row, they go in or near the gold pretty consistently. Being a recurve, it sits there on target like a rock due to the massive holding weight, so it works out pretty good. But even with bits of feather poofing off from whapping the handle on the shot from time to time, the arrows go pretty much in the same place on a good shot each time.

DM


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

I'm almost the opposite, when I have a bow that seems to magnify my mistakes I can bet it is shooting a bullet hole, add some high left direction and it becomes more forgiving. Funny how archery is different for different people.

Most will tell you to tune a hoyt with the top wheel touching the stop slightly ahead or dead even of the bottom cam, last week I shot with a guy that has his top cam about 1/2 inch from hitting the stop at all. This is where he found to bow to aim the best and be the most forgiving. Yes he did play with weights, stabilizer locations and lengths ect. Why it shoots better for him I don't know but it's had to argue when he pounded out a 28x300


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

So he's running it like a single cam. Or not wanting a firm wall. The top cam of Hoyt is more a oval wheel than cam....


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Ok, thank you for that.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You ever try a Hoyt set that way? I've seen it. Bottom cam hits and you sort of float in some valley. If you draw more then the top cam rolls to it's stop. I call it "double clutching." The cams aren't tied together. Also one of Hoyt's sales pitches, didn't effect nock travel.... 

I never did it, but with the Martin Cat cams (tied together) you could set the limb draw stop and back off the bottom draw module.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

We are at the IA forum so I would - not just assume but expect all we have established some personal preferences along the line. 
We talking you have or had bows out of tune, that I can not question how did you end up with it but I would question what did you score with it....
Shooting at 18 yards? or maybe 40-50 yards? Maybe, but Im sure it would cost you arms and legs shooting a full size FITA or a full size Field.
You want to go shooting tournaments better make that equipment right, go through those 4-5-6-7 steps of tuning (or more if needed), spend a time and effort ....or just don't do it.
Reversing the story back to OP, un-even limb pressure doesn't do any good.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

This is a funny topic, I was just at a party that had two pros and a couple ex pros like me, all thought that grip location, un even limb pressure or tiller, and nock location all play a part in getting a bow to aim better.

Had a bow once that aimed great, I started with a slight high left tear then group tuned it, nothing special, just made small adjustments till it still aimed well but seemed more forgiving. I shot the bow for marked 3D (like Redding) fita, and field, when I shot it through paper months later it had a 3+ inch tear! and all year when I shot birdie targets I knew I had to aim about a 1/2-3/4 inch left at 10 yards and in.

Now to answer your question about how it shot and how I scored, my best full fita 90,70,50,30 was a 1393, my best field score was a 555, and my redding score (two days back then) was a 1525
Now I know those aren't top pro scores but to pretend that without a perfectly tuned bow with perfect nock travel, and even limb pressure, that your doomed when you go compete is just nuts.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't disagree with you. One of the finest bows I ever owned wouldn't paper tune, period. Overall I placed and won in Indoor, Outdoor, Field and 3D. At the time it was too fast for NFAA events and I had to slow it down. That bow cruised at 295 fps and the NFAA speed limit was then 280 fps. Bow turned down, heavier arrow and I netted 2nd in Championship flight, 2 points down from the Champion. 

Regardless, I see no sense in changing tiller... Seems some get stuck on a hand placed to riser grip just so and won't change. Pretty simple to check. 20 yards, move hand, low, med, high, different thumb pressure, heal more than usual. You can move that arrow anywhere. Try the torque tuning test, 20 yards. You need some sort of reference point or indicator so you repeat. Torque the bow so the front stab points left and see where the arrows group. Torque the bow so the front stab points right and where the arrows group. You have the bow tuned well you should get nice groups right and left.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I tiller tune....by aiming, feel...not measurement. Regardless of brand, year, cam, limb design, angle, or grip location. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't disagree with you. One of the finest bows I ever owned wouldn't paper tune, period. Overall I placed and won in Indoor, Outdoor, Field and 3D. At the time it was too fast for NFAA events and I had to slow it down. That bow cruised at 295 fps and the NFAA speed limit was then 280 fps. Bow turned down, heavier arrow and I netted 2nd in Championship flight, 2 points down from the Champion.
> 
> Regardless, I see no sense in changing tiller... Seems some get stuck on a hand placed to riser grip just so and won't change. Pretty simple to check. 20 yards, move hand, low, med, high, different thumb pressure, heal more than usual. You can move that arrow anywhere. Try the torque tuning test, 20 yards. You need some sort of reference point or indicator so you repeat. Torque the bow so the front stab points left and see where the arrows group. Torque the bow so the front stab points right and where the arrows group. You have the bow tuned well you should get nice groups right and left.


Are you saying to move up and down on the grip to see what effect it has on how the bow aims? To me that would be like trying to find your max bench press weight with more weight on one side then the other. Without a comfortable hand/grip position you will never aim as good as you would with it comfortable


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

thawk said:


> Are you saying to move up and down on the grip to see what effect it has on how the bow aims? To me that would be like trying to find your max bench press weight with more weight on one side then the other. Without a comfortable hand/grip position you will never aim as good as you would with it comfortable


No, not up and down. I use a fairly neutral grip, right up against the shelf, but I can apply more heal pressure (Terry Wunderle; "Heal it!"). I can't believe you haven't heard of low, medium or high grip. And Hoyt now having different angled grips.

And so many search for the sweet spot of rest position....from center of arrow to bottom of berger hole to center of arrow to top of berger hole is more a norm for this search, but other have more. It isn't just accuracy they are looking for....
.
.
.
Yes, Tony, you would be one of those I noted for knowing how you'd like your bow to behave through tiller adjustment....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I like to have a neutral grip. I can tune the bow completely in a hootershooter and grab da bow and go shooting, no-more adjusting anything on it.
YOU, find your grip, any position, and HOLD YOUR POSITION there, creep tune da bow to that your hold position and pressure. You move the grip you'r toast, have to re-do-it again, you move the DW from 58 to 52 you have to do it again, outdoors getting warmer and warmer -> cables stretching, re- do it again....that looks like a hobby - Harley Davidson mechanic - to me.
I was that mechanic for years ....but I got tired.
This why I like to chose now my bows very carefully, not how it looks but how it tunes


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## Coug09 (Feb 4, 2007)

I also tiller tune by feel and how I want my bow to aim. Some bows need help more than others. 

It's absolutely ridiculous to "change your grip" to fit a bow. Your natural grip is going to be the most repeatable and is the only grip you should use. 

My Chill X and TRG's have lower grips and I never had to do anything different with tiller. My new Halon X has a high grip location and I have to run two turns out of the top limb to combat a lower hold. It makes the aim more effortless. You have to move your nocking point up naturally. On the Halon X, changing the tiller didn't change my cam timing at all which is interesting. 

In my experience, the higher the grip
Is, the heavier the bow wants aim for me. Lower grips usually need less tiller


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Coug09 said:


> It's absolutely ridiculous to "change your grip" to fit a bow. Your natural grip is going to be the most repeatable and is the only grip you should use.


I don't either. I gave examples to use. Still, some bare shaft tuners think grip pressure works. I worked at archery. My customers weren't going to wait around for me to find some magical grip. Having a Indoor range any customer was more than welcome to try their just set up or tuned bow.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Coug09 said:


> I also tiller tune by feel and how I want my bow to aim. Some bows need help more than others.
> 
> It's absolutely ridiculous to "change your grip" to fit a bow. Your natural grip is going to be the most repeatable and is the only grip you should use.
> 
> ...


Thank you, it only took 45 posts to answer the question I was asking. Your results are the same as mine only our bows are reverse.
I also agree, changing my grip to make a new bow work is ridiculous. If a bow doesn't work get one that will.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Coug09, how do you like your Halon X? We have one on order for one of our better shooters but it hasn't shown up yet


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## Coug09 (Feb 4, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't either. I gave examples to use. Still, some bare shaft tuners think grip pressure works. I worked at archery. My customers weren't going to wait around for me to find some magical grip. Having a Indoor range any customer was more than welcome to try their just set up or tuned bow.


I personally think the obsession for "perfect" arrow flight has hurt some shooters tremendously. I agree 1000000% with the guy who said he would take a bow that aimed really well over one that tunes great but aims terribly. 

I'll accept any tear thru paper other than low or left (left handed). Ideal for my target bows is 1/4-1/2" high at around 15-18'. I let the bow and groups tell me what needs to be done. A bullet hole isn't always the most forgiving. 

My big three is to get my bow to aim well, hit behind he pin every time when I do my part, and minimize my misses when I fail to make a perfect shot. 

I have had a few bows that I just bolted my stuff on and everything was really good but that's rarely the case. Once again though, it depends on the level of the shooter. I've had bows that I've had to shim inside the limb pockets. Why you ask? The would hit off the left or right side (barely) of my pin when I would execute perfect shots. Took the bow apart, found slop in the pockets, fixed it and it ended up being one of the best bows I've shot. 

How a bow aims is always my number one, so yes, I believe in tiller tuning. Some brands will need it more than others in my experience


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## Coug09 (Feb 4, 2007)

thawk said:


> Coug09, how do you like your Halon X? We have one on order for one of our better shooters but it hasn't shown up yet


Love the bow. It's an absolute shooter. They improved on all the issues the ChillX had I believe. It took a little more work to get it dialed in and aiming like I wanted. It was worth it though. I've had it going on two weeks. 

It and the Chill X and so different it's unbelievable really. They're both good in their own ways but I think the Halon X is a superior bow in almost every way. 

I will still hunt with a Chill X. It's a little quieter and more dead in your hand. 


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## Coug09 (Feb 4, 2007)

thawk said:


> Thank you, it only took 45 nonsense posts to answer the question I was asking. Your results are the same as mine only our bows are reverse.
> I also agree, changing my grip to make a new bow work is ridiculous. If a bow doesn't work get one that will.


Is your bow having trouble aiming high?

Just curious, what's the difference in holding weight between the two bows? 

Remember, just because two bows are similar specs wise, doesn't mean the setup will be the same. Try to start from scratch on on each bow


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

No it wants to hang low, just slightly and only late in the round, but it dip-bangs something horrific. Shot 3 8's the first night with it. I was a turn and a half in on the bottom limb. I took better measurement today and the grip is 3/8 lower then last years bow.
Weights didn't seem to change thing drastically only changed about 4-5oz front or back (I've never liked a heavy bow) and the new bow is a 1/2 # heavier.
Holding weight was 2# less now about a half pound.
I'm not happy with what I did today, I changed three things without shooting after each change. I know, not a smart move. I raised the nock and rest, added a pound of holding weight, and lowered the angle of the back bar.
I may go back and change things one at a time.
I was also going to try tiller in the other direction, can't hurt to try.
I need to figure it out soon or bench it, I registered for the OPA shoot today so I need to be confident with my setup.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Coug09 said:


> ...It's absolutely ridiculous to "change your grip" to fit a bow. Your natural grip is going to be the most repeatable and is the only grip you should use...


This why I buy bows what fit me in any aspects, the grip, the string angle, the forward - top - bottom - lean - balance, the weight, where can I attach my stabilizers or tuning weights, how can I tune it. I was hoping we not talking some wrecks


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I am setting up a Hoyt HyperEdge which has similar geometry to the Beast and am also finding a slight tendency for the bow to want to hang lower than I'd like. I was actually thinking of putting some turns in the bottom limb yesterday, but instead decided to change the grip angle a couple of degrees first to see if that reduces the tendency without having to mess with nocking point. Just another angle you may want to try out.


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## Coug09 (Feb 4, 2007)

It's all about where the pressure is put on your bow hand. 

I've also found that the top cam touching first on my bows can cause the bow to dip if you relax more than usual. 

As far as the bow dipping late in the shot process, I think that's more than likely a mass weight issue. Try starting from scratch with the weights. 


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

I didn't mean late in the shot I meant later in the rounds, which also sounds like a mass weight. I feel like a big wuss, we shoot with a girl who shoots a ton more weight on her stabilizers then I do, she is in great shape and about 5'10" but, I'm 6'3" 245# and a gym rat and ex fighter and can't handle half the weight she shoots! she's a total bad ass, plus I forgot she pulls 2# more then my 58#.

Montiger, I love the option Hoyt is giving their bow owners with the grip, in 2001 the Mach 11 came with a wood grip, when removed it had a very high wrist but it aimed great, they changed it the next year by a big amount, after fighting the new bow for several weeks I clamped it in a vise and went to town on the grip with a rasp and files, took about 1/4 off the top of the grip to make it a high wrist, wish I had kept that bow as I shot more 300 mid 20x rounds with it than any other bow. So by all means play with the grips they will cause the bow to react similar to tiller. Which is why I started this topic in the first place wondering what effect grip location has on a bows aiming characteristic, but I got answers like " none at all" which makes no sense to me knowing that your grip pressure will make a huge difference.
I looked at it like this, take a 36" stabilizer and put 1# on each end, now hold it over your head in the center of the stabilizer and feel the pressure on you grip, now move your hand 3" either direction and tell me your grip pressure is the same. You will now have to hold on to it with your fingers or it will fall. The weights are acting like limb pressure, aka tiller, you can move the weights so the stabilizer will balance the same with your 3" lower grip as it did with the center grip.

Now I know PSE didn't move my grip 3" but I also have 22# holding weight not the 2# in the stabilizer example


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