# Need opinions on a theory



## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

Just tell him today were gonna shoot 5 more targets than usual. then he won't think he's just about done on his way through 300.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

I shoot 60 - 1 arrow tournaments.


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## Da Vinci (May 16, 2011)

We tried the 60 1-arrow tournaments. He couldn't quit looking at the big picture.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

He needs to play a 10 yard game them a 15 yard game. It's a great confidence builder. It gives the mind a "view" of how the sight picture should look and if you can't do it at 10 you can't do it at 20.


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## Da Vinci (May 16, 2011)

Thanks. I'll have him give it a go for the next couple weeks at 10 yards, then move back a couple yards at a time. I know its the proven method to do it that way, as its how I eventually did it. I was just curious if my theory would hold up in practice. Specifically, if it was possible to trick the mental game. There is no substitute for a pile of used targets.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I've been told by some great archers and top coaches that archery accuracy comes from confidence. It's difficult to shoot a 300 unless you've already shot a 300. It's pretty standard that once an archer has his shot sequence to the subconscious level, short range shooting builds the necessary confidence. 

One phrase that I like is to shoot at distances where the archer is "arrogantly accurate" and gradually step back. 

IMHO this way of practicing is not of value until an archer is consistently shooting his shot sequence on every arrow.

Has your friend written down his shot sequence? This is always a good place to start when an archer isn't satisfied with their shooting.

Allen


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## happyhunter62 (Dec 31, 2010)

i think untill he learns to control all his thoughts he will continue to struggle


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## Big Ragu (Feb 27, 2008)

aread said:


> I've been told by some great archers and top coaches that archery accuracy comes from confidence. It's difficult to shoot a 300 unless you've already shot a 300. It's pretty standard that once an archer has his shot sequence to the subconscious level, short range shooting builds the necessary confidence.
> 
> One phrase that I like is to shoot at distances where the archer is "arrogantly accurate" and gradually step back.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of the above.. but must add a few details. I have found that most every time a guy shoots well enough to hover at the 298 range but never gets the 300 is doing a classic "score motivated effort" meaning he has failed him self before he even picks up his bow.

Most times its ego related not saying he is a bad person at all, I'm saying that we as a society believe inherently that we are better then we are at pretty much every thing and we set goals that are unobtainable for our current skill levels,we tell our selves "I should be able to do it", then we ask why we cant. 

Unfortunately we tend to dwell on our short comings instead of focusing on the positives .Most any thing you try with this person will most likely fail, but it wont be because of lack of effort. The problem lies in the mental part of the game. He sounds like a good enough shot to hit 300, but his barrier isn't a number its his inability to just shoot with no outcome related thoughts. Outcome related thoughts will destroy any ones end game! This is some thing he can over come if he can focus on another aspect of the game "OUTCOME BE DAMNED"! 

I recommend a distraction technique that he will add "an after shot process if you will"! Have him read some thing or recite some thing for at least 7 seconds when he is feeling out come pressure. Practice with out scoring for long periods of time will help him focus . This person has a short attention span but he must remember he can go 98% of the way he just needs to do less to get him over the hump... caring to much will hurt him he needs to stop caring about score and focus on each shot as if it were the one he will shoot for the day...good luck!


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

OK Im an idiot - but something was running through my mind when I read this.

Maybe try a different approach to him. Challenge him to get his X count up. This subesquently could very easily get that 300 up without even thinking about the "300"

Just a thought - like you said you are looking for something different in this guy.


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## Big Ragu (Feb 27, 2008)

Garceau said:


> OK Im an idiot - but something was running through my mind when I read this.
> 
> Maybe try a different approach to him. Challenge him to get his X count up. This subesquently could very easily get that 300 up without even thinking about the "300"
> 
> Just a thought - like you said you are looking for something different in this guy.


That's the perfect distraction !! 

I have done that for years !! It works very very well.

Well said man. 

Simple and deadly, by doing this he will be distracted from counting score but eventually he will start anticipate x's and it becomes an obsession and the whole negative process begins again...but for now counting X's is brilliant. He should be focused on the center of the X to begin with...aim small miss small!


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

yeah thats kind of the theory I was leaning towards "aim small, miss small" type thing.

I do see him eventually running into the same issues with counting X's and getting nervous about them.

But hopefully by then he has many 300s under his belt and has confidence built up?

Maybe, maybe not......but I would think the above is a pretty simple routine. Change up the goals and let a secondary goal sneak in at the same time.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Garceau said:


> OK Im an idiot - but something was running through my mind when I read this.
> 
> Maybe try a different approach to him. Challenge him to get his X count up. This subesquently could very easily get that 300 up without even thinking about the "300"
> 
> Just a thought - like you said you are looking for something different in this guy.


This still seems to be Outcome Oriented. For me, the better & more difficult challenge is to shoot my shot sequence 60 times and as BG said "OUTCOME BE DAMNED"! 

The idea is to focus on process and not outcome. If you shoot a good shot, indoors, it's likely to score good (no wind or branches, etc). 

Your friend probably has the same problem that I do, which is not focusing enough on EVERY shot, one at a time. Until he does this, he won't shoot 300. 

One other thing he should do and that is let down at least four more times a round. Just cause you draw it back, doesn't mean you have to shoot it. This is one of the harder things to learn for competition archery.

Allen


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

I struggled for the longest time to shoot 300 on the vegas face I must have shot 200 either 298 or 299 scores so one day realizing that I would break down mentally or phyically at some point in the round [ usually after the half way point ] I decided to make 30 perfect shots in a row no matter how long it took letting down evey time my site picture wasn't perfect I shot my very first 300 on that first try. I must have let down 10 or 15 times when I normally never let down. I resisted the temptation to shoot a less than good shot and that got me over the hump to many more vegas 300s. I mainly shoot 3d where you only get one chance to get it right on each target and this approach has helped me alot. I still don't let down alot but I won't shoot a shot that just doesn't let me maintain my concentration on the spot i'm try to hit. YOU CAN FEEL WHEN ITS WRONG-DON"T SHOOT IT!!!!!! Mark


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Shoot form. Once your form is right...all you do is aim. 

I know when I shoot a bad shot (not an x) it's a form flaw or I just hold to long (which is because my setup was off) You need to break down your shots and know why you did what you did. Once you understand your form flaw, it's easier to fix. Some problems are harder to identify than others. My hardest thing to work on was my release - making it a truly subconscious action. Tonite I shot 300/58 (BHFS). I know exactly what I did when I dropped both x's. But I seem to make these mistakes at least 2 to 5 times a game. I have yet to get the magical 60. I know if I can shoot 58 I can do 60. If your buddy can shoot a299 - he can shoot a 300. 

Remember it's progression, not perfection.


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## Da Vinci (May 16, 2011)

Thanks you all. I have been out of town for the past few days and am happy to come back and find this thread full of ideas. I may still change up his game, in an attempt to get him to shoot a 300 without realizing it. I guess I could simplify it and just pull his arrows and score his target without him knowing his score. The base of my initial theory was to have him shoot a 300 in a different setting to see if he could repeat it in a normal round. I guess give him the confidence boost to do it in a round, because he had already done it. I dunno. Just a thought. That's why I asked. Thanks, yall.


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## archer60x (Nov 24, 2008)

One thing that has helped me significantly is "Perfect Practice leads to Perfect Rounds". Shooting the bar code is grreat but it doesn't have anything attached to it, doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme. A 300 may win a tournament or be a personal best. These have attachments like ego, pride or a prize, medal or even CASH. When you practice make every shot count for something, challenge yourself, tell yourself that this is the last arrow to win the Vegas Open, make every shot the last shot to win a tournament,put a bet on shooting an X, something substantial like dinner for the one closest to the X, or a reward of some sort, or a punishment for a miss, then the X has an attachment, something worth concentrating on and shooting your best. Then when he gets to the last few ends in a shoot, the pressure to get that 300 will be something he will be used to and he will be able to shoot through to the ever elusive 300.

If I am looking at a possible 300 and I have a few ends to go I need to concentrate 10 times harder than the previous rounds. Fatigue is always an issue as well as anxiety and adreniline rush. It is around that time that one starts to question their shot sequence and their form begins to break down. The focus needs to be 10 times better than it was for the very first shot! Hope this helps and thanks to all for some great suggestions!!


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

I have seen this work. On the NFAA, shoot a 360 round, X ring as a 6, It takes the pressure of the blue. On Vegas, score the X as a ten, ten as a nine, same concept. Years ago I shot in a 360 mail in, had never shot a 300, and turned in 8 rounds in a row never leaving the white. I seldom don't shoot a 300 anymore ten years later. I tried the Vegas concept, and shot a 300 on my second round.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

Big Ragu said:


> I agree with all of the above.. but must add a few details. I have found that most every time a guy shoots well enough to hover at the 298 range but never gets the 300 is doing a classic "score motivated effort" meaning he has failed him self before he even picks up his bow.
> 
> Most times its ego related not saying he is a bad person at all, I'm saying that we as a society believe inherently that we are better then we are at pretty much every thing and we set goals that are unobtainable for our current skill levels,we tell our selves "I should be able to do it", then we ask why we cant.
> 
> ...


 very good post big ragu:thumbs_up


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## Saki_d (Jan 17, 2012)

Big Ragu said:


> I agree with all of the above.. but must add a few details. I have found that most every time a guy shoots well enough to hover at the 298 range but never gets the 300 is doing a classic "score motivated effort" meaning he has failed him self before he even picks up his bow.
> 
> Most times its ego related not saying he is a bad person at all, I'm saying that we as a society believe inherently that we are better then we are at pretty much every thing and we set goals that are unobtainable for our current skill levels,we tell our selves "I should be able to do it", then we ask why we cant.
> 
> ...


I realize this is in no way related to the original post... but how would you tell this to a 12 year old who is SOOO focused on the final outcome that he can't focus on trying to change his technique for the better?!? 
I am coachig a juniors program and have problems with one kid in particular. Everyone else listens and realizes that if they do listen and fix up their technique and take a few bad shots, their sight can be adjusted and they shoot better in the long run. This one boy is so focused on trying to get a good score that he doesn't listen for the most part and tries to force his arrows where he wants them to go. We are on boarderline tear territory as his frustration mounts. With increased frustration comes worse shooting and zero technique and a lot of backtalking to other coaches (me included) and to his dad who often watches the duration of our training program. THe dad is trying to help the kid relax and realize that he needs to listen to improve but it is pretty clear that none of us are getting through to him - he just wants a good score irrespective of the path taken to get there. 
I can't challenge him to shoot a particular number, colour or spot on the target (120cm at 20yards) as he can hardly hit the target butt period when his form is all over the shop. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Saki_d said:


> I realize this is in no way related to the original post... but how would you tell this to a 12 year old who is SOOO focused on the final outcome that he can't focus on trying to change his technique for the better?!?
> I am coachig a juniors program and have problems with one kid in particular. Everyone else listens and realizes that if they do listen and fix up their technique and take a few bad shots, their sight can be adjusted and they shoot better in the long run. This one boy is so focused on trying to get a good score that he doesn't listen for the most part and tries to force his arrows where he wants them to go. We are on boarderline tear territory as his frustration mounts. With increased frustration comes worse shooting and zero technique and a lot of backtalking to other coaches (me included) and to his dad who often watches the duration of our training program. THe dad is trying to help the kid relax and realize that he needs to listen to improve but it is pretty clear that none of us are getting through to him - he just wants a good score irrespective of the path taken to get there.
> I can't challenge him to shoot a particular number, colour or spot on the target (120cm at 20yards) as he can hardly hit the target butt period when his form is all over the shop. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


A trip to the woodshed is probably not an option here.  

Does the kid want to participate in archery? Or is he just doing it for his dad?

If he really wants to shoot, maybe you can time it right & catch him at a maximum frustration moment and tell him that you are here for him and can teach him how to actually hit the target, but he has to do it your way. If he continues to ignore your instruction, take his bow away & sit him down.

You can't force kids to want to shoot well. Sometimes, a kid will misbehave or deliberately do something wrong to get attention or show that he doesn't want to be in an archery class. If he is trying to follow your instructions, give him attention, no matter how bad the results. But if he is backtalking, he needs to sit in the corner a while and be ignored. It will be tough to get his dad to support you on this, but if you can, it will help this kid more than you know.

If he has to shoot at a target, big targets at short range will give him confidence in your instruction. 

Allen


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## Da Vinci (May 16, 2011)

Gonna bump this to the top. Im curious to see how the young archer is doing. I appreciate the continued input from everyone. I'm soaking this up like a sponge. Thanks.


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## bigdog11 (Jun 17, 2005)

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try up close aiming-no shoot drills up close, gets them to focus on the x better, so at 5-7 yards first days 5-10 rounds of aiming at each circle dont shoot let down, then 5 rounds aim on first circle shoot the second ,so on, ect till all five circle ,on these round they will finish 2 arrows in the target, the 5 rounds switched shoot,noshoot,shoot,noshoot shoot, then 5 rounds of shoot. Takes there mind off the white circle and focuses on the x. 2-3 days of this then move the target back and start over the sequence. after a few weeks you should be back to the 20 yrds counting x's not white circles. I also incorperate ahold for 4-6 seconds with this starting on blank bales to help that pesky Target Panic. I have seen very impresive results from this aiming drill, Its a real confidence booster for them.


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## Big Ragu (Feb 27, 2008)

My recommendation is simple .If he is hooting a release aid take it away ...If he is shooting with a sight ..remove it! Have him shoot at 3 or 5 yards (close to the target) and let him to reestablish the fundamentals with out introducing a score based mentality. The object of archery is not to obtain a high score its to enlighten our selves as to what we can improve about ourselves that is under the surface. By stripping away the tools, devices, and score you get down to the real issue and that is fear of failure ,fear of letting go, fear of success , fear of change ....a lot of fear based issues. Youths today are are far more instant gratification orientated then we were growing up . Archery is not a video game, Its a martial Art and an extension of our selves it will unveil the best and worst in us if we let it. To reach this young fellow you have to make a few concessions for him, One on one with no one around so he doesn't look like he is being pulled off the line like a rejected product. If you can talk with his Dad and see if you can spend some one on one time with him, to help him better understand the due process off a solid trusting relation ship, and the effects of an Archery Mentor! Take little away from him verbally and find ways to prays him that you normally wouldn't. It will help you both grow... plus you may just get your self a new best friend.


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