# Louisiana and the crossbow...



## progers

We are forming a coalition to try and introduce crossbows to the legislature in Louisiana. We have spoken with a few state reps so far, and they are behind it. Crossbows can now be used only by handicap and/or elderly. We are proposing for them to be legal for ALL liscensed hunters to use if they desire. 

This is an issue that will be documented throughout 2006 and we shall present at a later date this year. We are backed by TNUSA, ACF, Keith Warren and quite a few other organizations. We support all hunters, no matter of their personal preference of hunting is as long as it is legal.

This is an announcement not a debate. The dabate is at TNUSA. We also have a "for" and "against" reasons to use list. All info is welcomed.

Please respect all parties and please show your support for either parties if you hunt and/or live in Louisiana.

Thank you.


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## doctariAFC

progers said:


> We are forming a coalition to try and introduce crossbows to the legislature in Louisiana. We have spoken with a few state reps so far, and they are behind it. Crossbows can now be used only by handicap and/or elderly. We are proposing for them to be legal for ALL liscensed hunters to use if they desire.
> 
> This is an issue that will be documented throughout 2006 and we shall present at a later date this year. We are backed by TNUSA, ACF, Keith Warren and quite a few other organizations. We support all hunters, no matter of their personal preference of hunting is as long as it is legal.
> 
> This is an announcement not a debate. The dabate is at TNUSA. We also have a "for" and "against" reasons to use list. All info is welcomed.
> 
> Please respect all parties and please show your support for either parties if you hunt and/or live in Louisiana.
> 
> Thank you.


Way to go Louisiana! A ton of data now exists in the States which permit crossbows as another hunter choice. Would recommend gathering this data and leveraging it as a part of the pitch to get this one done.

Way to go!


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## progers

Thanks. I have been finding alot of good info. MD had some great info. We knace some REALLY "knowledgeable" guys working with us.

I read some comments back at the first of Jan this year. The reasons of the people, not to mention organization :zip:, were always the same. Most reasons given why "not to" seemed to be distorted and untrue.

If anyone knows any good links for info, please let me know. :wink: 

We're only 3 weeks end and we are coming strong. It might not be this year or the next, but it wil happen. Simply because it is the right thing to do.

Are compoundbow manufactors striving for 100% let off?

Hey, they just opened the door for the crossbow! :cocktail:


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## Duke12

progers don't continure to make false statements. Not even close.


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## insatiable

*Xbows are not a part of archery!*

I'm a concerned bowhunter in LA and against the use of a crossbow during archery season. The hunting opportunities for bowhunters is poor enough in our state without introducing another negative into the equation. Buy a bow if you want to bow hunt.
Insatiable


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## doctariAFC

insatiable said:


> I'm a concerned bowhunter in LA and against the use of a crossbow during archery season. The hunting opportunities for bowhunters is poor enough in our state without introducing another negative into the equation. Buy a bow if you want to bow hunt.
> Insatiable


How does a hunter using a crossbow as their choice affect your hunting with a vertical bow and your choice? Curious to find out.


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## Pistol in La.

My name is Pistol Young. 
I'm the Youth Director for the Bayou State Bowhunters Association. The BSBA's stance on this issue is that it is already legal to hunt with a crossbow in this state if you're over 60 and if your diabled or handicapped. We stand behind the current standards for using this weapon. We are against it being used by all hunters and also during the rifle, primitive and or archery seasons.


Following are a few of my personal opinions as to why the crossbow should not be allowed by the general public during any deer season. 

= The crossbow, as with the draw loc allows the arrow to be stored in a ready position at all times. Unlike an arrow having to be drawn ( compound or taditional )
= I don't think by allowing the legalization of this weapon will generate any significant monies to the wildlife and fisheries dept. 
= I think that the archery shops will see a decline in sales / service after the initial sale due to someone sticking with the crossbow setup they originally buy. I hope that the archery shops will foresee this issue.
= There is plenty of adequate equipment in the archery industry to outfit any person whether they are strong or weak, young or old, male or female.


Like I stated earlier the BSBA is definetly against the legalization of the crossbow in any form of use other than what is in place as of now.
If any other Bowhunters are interested in helping the Bayou State Bowhunters fight this issue as we basically do each year. Feel free to contact myself and I'll steer you in the right direction.


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## progers

doctariAFC said:


> How does a hunter using a crossbow as their choice affect your hunting with a vertical bow and your choice? Curious to find out.




doc t, I wouldn't even get them three started in a debate. The debate has already happened at TNUSA Activism, LA xbow. Please check it out. They knew about it and failed to show up. 

This thread is for all those who are INFAVOR of having it legal for ALL individuals, as long as they have correct permits AND follow the state and area game laws.

Please, keep the debate at TNUSA or BOA, BSBA members. Sorry. Please quit using thread lock tactics.

Please be respectful.


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## doctariAFC

progers said:


> doc t, I wouldn't even get them three started in a debate. The debate has already happened at TNUSA Activism, LA xbow. Please check it out. They knew about it and failed to show up.
> 
> This thread is for all those who are INFAVOR of having it legal for ALL individuals, as long as they have correct permits AND follow the state and area game laws.
> 
> Please, keep the debate at TNUSA or BOA, BSBA members. Sorry. Please quit using thread lock tactics.
> 
> Please be respectful.


You do realize that I am the moderator in here, right?

If these guys wish to debate it, so long as the debate is respectful and professional and no statements made for or against crossbows in Louisiana warrant an EOP action from ol doctari, then the discussions are fine. AGain, I keep a very tight set of rules here, challenging the moderator is tops on the list.

This debate is important. As the debate travels state to state, the myths surrounding crossbows fall by the wayside. This debate is in accordance with Legislative Action and Hunting Rights.

So they failed to show up to the State-specific debate? That speaks volumes itself.

I wouldn't worry too much, but, with this being a global forum, the debate in each state sheds light on other states upcoming challenges. It also goes to reaching the "understanding" of sportsmen's mindsets, and goes a long way to developing unity in our ranks. We are our own worst enemies in terms of factionista infighting. By getting the discussions on the table, in a civil, fact-based, respectful manner, we move closer to unifying the very folks I am fighting for in terms of protecting our rights to enjoy the great outdoors, be it in NYS or in the USA.


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## Duke12

doctariAFC said:


> You do realize that I am the moderator in here, right?
> 
> If these guys wish to debate it, so long as the debate is respectful and professional and no statements made for or against crossbows in Louisiana warrant an EOP action from ol doctari, then the discussions are fine. AGain, I keep a very tight set of rules here, challenging the moderator is tops on the list.
> 
> This debate is important. As the debate travels state to state, the myths surrounding crossbows fall by the wayside. This debate is in accordance with Legislative Action and Hunting Rights.
> 
> So they failed to show up to the State-specific debate? That speaks volumes itself.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much, but, with this being a global forum, the debate in each state sheds light on other states upcoming challenges. It also goes to reaching the "understanding" of sportsmen's mindsets, and goes a long way to developing unity in our ranks. We are our own worst enemies in terms of factionista infighting. By getting the discussions on the table, in a civil, fact-based, respectful manner, we move closer to unifying the very folks I am fighting for in terms of protecting our rights to enjoy the great outdoors, be it in NYS or in the USA.


Don't think you will have an problem with either of us, we are moderators on another site and respect others opinions . What I don't respect is trolls that move from one board to another using false information.
In fact I bet someone is surprised to see that we were here long before them.


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## progers

doctariAFC said:


> You do realize that I am the moderator in here, right?
> 
> If these guys wish to debate it, so long as the debate is respectful and professional and no statements made for or against crossbows in Louisiana warrant an EOP action from ol doctari, then the discussions are fine. AGain, I keep a very tight set of rules here, challenging the moderator is tops on the list.
> 
> This debate is important. As the debate travels state to state, the myths surrounding crossbows fall by the wayside. This debate is in accordance with Legislative Action and Hunting Rights.
> 
> So they failed to show up to the State-specific debate? That speaks volumes itself.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much, but, with this being a global forum, the debate in each state sheds light on other states upcoming challenges. It also goes to reaching the "understanding" of sportsmen's mindsets, and goes a long way to developing unity in our ranks. We are our own worst enemies in terms of factionista infighting. By getting the discussions on the table, in a civil, fact-based, respectful manner, we move closer to unifying the very folks I am fighting for in terms of protecting our rights to enjoy the great outdoors, be it in NYS or in the USA.




No no no, doc t. I didn't meant that as challenging the moderator. Yall may debate away with these guys all you wish. I meant that me personally, "I" was not going to debate with them. It is just like







with these guys. Their reasons are simply greed. They do not see the BIG PICTURE of how it will benefit everyone. 

We have been debating with them for a couple of weeks already, somewhere else. However, if it is fine with you, and they want a debate from a fellow LA'ian, I AIN'T SKEEERT!! :wink: 


Here BSBA members, knaw on this for a while:
----------------------------------------------


So, these are the reasons that the people came up with for why the crossbow should be allowed here in LA. Without restrictions but with the regulations as all means of taking game do. 
Here's what I came up with that was discussed here by the people of LA. 
--------------------------------------------- 
Reasons for: 
---------------- 

It's fun! 

Crossbows allow those unable to, or who have difficulty operating a conventional bow for whatever reason -- the opportunity to incur the challenges and rewards of bowhunting. 

Kills game very quickly. 
For ethical hunting that's a neccisity.... 
er necessity 

I can take my kids hunting with me earlier in the year. 

Basically same range as a compound bow. 

Another weapon in the arsenal. 

If my wife or kids want to use a crossbow it should be their choice. Nobody's better than them to decide for them. Regardless of how easy a bow is to shoot, if they want to use a crossbow they should be able to. 

A crossbow IS ARCHERY EQUIPMENT! 

Increased revenue to the State of LA by means of more archery liscense being bought and elevated sporting good store sales that generate state tax that will trickle down to the LDWF. As LA only have 2 gamewardens per parish, they can't work 24/7. They are understaffed, overworked and underpaid. This will benifit the State of LA. 

It is a matter of personal choice not need. There is no reason for the crossbowman to prove the need for its use during archery season. 

One of the best and lasting reasons to have the crossbow is it gets more hunters interested in the sport of hunting 

It does add an interesting layer to hunting. More interest, more participation, more fun, more family beyond the pavement conservation supporting tooth fang & claw livin close to the hoof and ground fun! 

Did I say FUN yet? 

a personal challege and I'd like to try it with a crossbow too.... 

The modern hunting crossbow delivers about the same ballistic performance with a 500-grain arrow/broadhead combination as a 65-70 pound compound bow. 

Like a vertical bow, the crossbow launches an arrow by a forward movement of limbs and string. 

The comparison of not having to “draw in the presence of game” is negated by high let off compounds that can be drawn and held for minutes and are usually shot from tree stands. 

Crossbows have proven to be a good recruitment tool for bringing youth and women into hunting. They are good for retaining older hunters longer too. 

Crossbow hunting opportunity has proven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations. 

After 26 seasons in the state of Ohio, crossbow hunters have proven to be just as safe and ethical as vertical bow hunters are. 

Like any other shooting skill, using a crossbow safely and accurately will require a combination of old and well learned knowledge as well as new information specific to the weapon. 

Most crossbow safety is obvious and relates to common sense issue taught during a fundamental hunter education training session. 

Crossbows have been described as being more like a firearm than handbows. While crossbows are indeed aimed like a firearm, they lack the noise, flash, odor, recoil, range, accuracy and kinetic energy of a hunting firearm. 

Through license fees, retail sales-- crossbows and accessories and all other sister products needed (tree stands, camo clothing, scents etc.) and hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred, this increased hunting opportunity offers positive financial impact for the state.


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## progers

Duke12 said:


> Don't think you will have an problem with either of us, we are moderators on another site and respect others opinions . What I don't respect is trolls that move from one board to another using false information.
> In fact I bet someone is surprised to see that we were here long before them.



I would not be a troll. I am Paul Rogers, Owner of Bayou Outdoors Adventures. We host Bayou Outdoor Magazine's "talk back." The #1 Outdoor publication in Louisiana. Not to mention some TNUSA, ACF and NRA directors on board, the Top Gun Challange, and many other organizations. 

I think that I should not be called a TROLL. :beer:


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## Duke12

progers said:


> I would not be a troll. I am Paul Rogers, Owner of Bayou Outdoors Adventures. We host Bayou Outdoor Magazine's "talk back." Not to mention some TNUSA and NRA directors on board, the Top Gun Challange, and many other organizations.
> 
> I think that I should not be called a TROLL. :beer:


Haven't I always been Nice!:cocktail:


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## progers

*avoiding debate*



Duke12 said:


> Haven't I always been Nice!:cocktail:



yes you have Duke. You have always been nice when we discussed this issue. I respect you greatly for that.

Now, debate! :cocktail:


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## Long Boy

I live in Louisiana and I must say I dont want crossbows for anybody and everybody. I love how the woods get thinned after gun season and before. I can go and have little chance of bumping into other hunters. Money you say thats what it is always about the almighty dollar. The state already mismanages state lands as it is and deer numbers are falling on them. The extra money will do nothing more than line the pockets of some idiot only looking for the mighty buck (dollar).

If you want to hunt earlier or later get a bow and practice. I may stir up something with this next statement. Bowhunters in general are a better class of hunter. I say this because we do our best to get in and out of the woods as quiet and as scent free and possable. What that does is make the woods less weary to WT deer. Most rifle hunters dont care about scent and why would they? They can shoot over 200yds. 

You will have every yahoo who can afford one going out buying one and hitting the woods. Think about this most people who want to use a crossbow dont have the will or want to learn to use normal archey equipment and is looking for the easy way out.

If you are eldery or handicap then by all means use them.I just dont think they are for everyone.


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## Engelsmung

*x-bows are fine if you're handicapped...*

they're already allowed w/Drs excuse. I doubt you will find much support for them for non-handicapped folks during bow season. We do not have the deer populations to support the additional pressure from x-bows like they do up north. A great number of our bowhunters are bow only, and use a bow even during gun season. I'll make sure my state rep know my feelings on this, as will the BSBA.


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## PMantle

My support is with the BSBA. They are firmly against crossbow use in the archery only season. If someone wants to use them in the gun season, fine by me. Otherwise, I will support the BSBA position.


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## Fireemt124

First Post here, I am a bowhunter and I support the crossbow. I do not believe it infringes on the right of another hunter. I believe it makes a clean ethical kill. And I believe it should be a personal choice, not a regulated choice whether I use one or not.


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## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Crossbow hunting opportunity has proven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations.


This one is my favorite. Try to find one square inch of La where they have problems w/deer overpopulation, as opposed to the reverse. I can see the getting kids into the sport, but why not get them a real bow?


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## Fireemt124

If my kid wants a bow, I'm all for getting a bow. But if he wants a crossbow, why not? Why should I try to push someone elses philosophy on him if he wants to hunt with a crossbow. It was said on another board that personal choice should not play a part on whether or not crossbows should be legalized. I disagree. I think it matters as much as any other reason. We all enjoy hunting or we wouldn't be here debating this. So why can't we take that common ground and work on it. Crossbows will take nothing away from bowhunters. The maintenance on them would be similar, so archery shops would not be left out in the cold. These are just my opinions, I am not a professional debator so I imagine my arguments will be weak compared to others. After all, I was told I don't know what I'm doing and I have no idea what I have gotten myself into. I think I do. I do not own a crossbow and I really don't have a stake in this other than the fact of having another weapon to choose to hunt with. So yes, I will support the crossbow in whatever season it would be legalized for and would be proud to use one if given the chance.


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## Pistol in La.

*Replies to Progers earlier statements !!!*

Answers to Progers Earlier Reply

= Do we legalize all things that are fun ?

= If they have a legitimate reason for not being able to use a compound or traditional equipment. They shouldn't have a problem obtaining a legal disabled or handicapped permit.

= Lots of things kill game ethically if used correctly. I've seen game harvested effectively with a spear. Do we want to start that season ?

= Do you have to have a crossbow to take your child hunting ? I don't. I have a 15 yr. old 90 lb daughter that is very effective with a 35lb. Parker compound and has taken game with it.

= The range of an effective weapon is only as good as the person shooting it. Regular bowhunters practice more than crossbow or rifle hunters on the average.

= Face it !! The world ain't made up of us being able to make many decisions for ourselves. Most decisions are made by someone else and the majority or man with the money rules.

= You can have all the weapons you want, you just might be able to use them legally.

= You're correct !! It is a form of archery equipment. Just like a 22 is a rifle, you just don't hunt all game with it.

= I don't see a lot of revenue being generated. Especially for the sporting goods. Regular archery is a gadget driven business, where people try things all the time. Theres not alot to a crossbow, and I'll be willing to bet their want be alot of future maintenance and chance for sales from a crossbow.

= I agree its a matter of choice and the majority will come forth at the end. Like I said earlier. Alot of choices are made for us. We might not like them, but it's there.

= How can you honestly believe that a crossbow can get more people involved in hunting. We need to change America. 
Get rid of single parent homes, High lease prices, We as parents get the kids outside. I've introduced alot of children to the outdoors and none had a crossbow in their hand. They had fishing poles, 4-wheelers, camping trips and guns and bows in their hands.

= I can't challenge the tooth, claw and fang thing. I don't worship uncle Ted !!

= The ballistic performance is probably close to the same. In fact probably easier to shoot. IMO

= Yes it does launch the arrow with forward movement of the string, But it also has a safety, possible cocking mechanism, held like a rifle, scope or other significantly better sight system.

= Most bow shots are taking standing. The average archery kill is 17 - 20 yds. I would be willing to bet the crossbow can be shot sitting facing forward, turning to left or right while sitting, aimed from a shooting rail, shot at a greater distance.

= If a crossbow is the only way to get kids, women, and elderly people involved. I'm all for a crossbow. I just don't believe that.

= Why can't regular archery equipment perform the same duties for urban population control or is a crossbow to be used only ? You did say they're quite equal in ballistics, effectiveness, and I'm positive the compound is quieter so when I shoot I want wake the little ladies kids. 

= I'm sure they are. Hats off to them !!

= Like I said earlier. I don't think that crossbow shooters and or gun hunters for the most part practice enough and learn totally the limitations of their equipment.

= Yes, taught at a regular hunter education class that most all specifics are long gun related. How many bows to you see at the regular hunter ed classes.

= Yes they're indeed close to a firearm. Their noisier than a regular bow, can be carried cocked and ready, aimed from a rest, shot with a scope, have a safety in place.

= Like I said earlier. I don't think many people are going to go out and jump the Bass Pro fence and purchase a bunch of stuff and today become a hunter just because I can now shoot a crossbow. I think the people that will purchse them are fore the most part people who want the easy was out.


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## progers

doctariAFC said:


> This debate is important. As the debate travels state to state, the myths surrounding crossbows fall by the wayside. This debate is in accordance with Legislative Action and Hunting Rights.
> 
> So they failed to show up to the State-specific debate? That speaks volumes itself.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much, but, with this being a global forum, the debate in each state sheds light on other states upcoming challenges. It also goes to reaching the "understanding" of sportsmen's mindsets, and goes a long way to developing unity in our ranks. We are our own worst enemies in terms of factionista infighting. By getting the discussions on the table, in a civil, fact-based, respectful manner, we move closer to unifying the very folks I am fighting for in terms of protecting our rights to enjoy the great outdoors, be it in NYS or in the USA.





Yes Sir, you are correct. The debate is import for the rights of ALL hunters. We have some crossbow professional that are prepared to show the difference in actual ballists of the crossbow instead of the distorted fact we have heard all our life. Bare with us as we transfer the info here.


Yes, they FAILED to show up to the State-specific debate at Ted Nugent United Sportsmen of America. They knew about it. There was one guy there that is a member of these guys forum that is NOT a BSBA member that showed up. These guys even have a thread at their sit talking about the debate at TNUSA and now one talking about it here. I think we have gotton their attention. 

I am representing a large group of people who are in favor of uniting all hunters and outdoorsmen. It is time to end the infighting. It is time to end the cannabilism.


Thank you for allowing this debate here at your forum. We shall stay respectable to all parties and only present the truth and facts. I hope that what we contribute here over the next few days can benefit any states who push this issue.

Thank you


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## Kenny Borel

Sure looks like more Louisiana bowhunters are *against* it than for it, HUH. :shade: I'll not debate here. I'll fight it where it counts- in the Legislature.:fencing: Both the *BSBA* and the *Louisiana Wildlife Federation* are *against* crossbow use for the general public. As stated earlier, in La. one CAN use a crossbow *IF* they are* LEGITIMATELY* handicapped or are over 65 yrs old. We have NO problem with that and intend to keep it that way. This is my one and only reply to this thread.
P.S. Look at the post counts as you are reading this!!!!


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## progers

Kenny Borel said:


> Sure looks like more Louisiana bowhunters are *against* it than for it, HUH. :shade: I'll not debate here. I'll fight it where it counts- in the Legislature.:fencing: Both the *BSBA* and the *Louisiana Wildlife Federation* are *against* crossbow use for the general public. As stated earlier, in La. one CAN use a crossbow *IF* they are* LEGITIMATELY* handicapped or are over 65 yrs old. We have NO problem with that and intend to keep it that way. This is my one and only reply to this thread.
> P.S. Look at the post counts as you are reading this!!!!



The bowhunters represent only a small part of the hunting community. The people ask that you debate here. We are preparing the Legislature as we speak. We will fight it there, also. The general public has a right to hunt with one if they want, since it has been approved to be an effective and ethical method to take game with here in LA. It SHOULD be a MATTER OF CHOICE. 


Yes, we have a few BSBA members here pretty fast, didn't we. It probably had something with yall having a thread at a site you visit about this event coming to AT. Yall were already members of this forum. We just haven't happened aross it yet but, we have now. 

The debate has started, don't run out on it now.


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## Fireemt124

You're right, I have just started posting. But I would imagine everybody here started at one sometime or another. Yes I see there is a lot of experience here. A lot of experience that I do respect. But....(there's always a but) I still feel there is room for crossbows here in the state. An easy argument seems to be that a crossbow is an easy way out. If it's going to be hard why would someone want to start hunting. As they progress they may want to try somethig different. Again it would be their choice. So what are the damaging effects of the crossbow?


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## cynic

I am of the impression that many of the so called BOWMEN have not had the opportunity to try to hunt with a xbow. Many have also jumped on the band wagon of a stigma that xbows are easier and take no effort "wrong". 1st let me ask how many vertical hunters have had the chance for a 2nd shot, I know I have. I harvested my first xbow deer this season. I live in Florida and can use one after Archery season. I CHOSE to use one for an additional challenge. There are certain advantages of a xbow but there are also drawbacks. Many say that you don't have to stand to shoot. Well I draw and shoot sitting. I shoot a Patriot VFT, MARTIN and an EDGE. I enjoy bow hunting and also enjoyed the xbow. I will be impressed by the xbow when they can make them as quiet as my compound. The noise that rings out limits the range in my opinion as every creature in the world heres it go off and runs including the one you shoot at "jumping the string". Don't get me wrong I will bow hunt as long as I can stretch a string but also believe that the xbow has its place in the hunting arena. There is no such thing as "primitive" all the way to the longbows unless you own a handmade wood staive bow. Recurves were the first improvement, then the compound. Now the compound, Yea now that's primitive, Aluminum, fiberglass, steel, ballbearings, sights arrowrests, releases, carbonfiber arrows, mechanical broadheads. Which one of those items are primitive? So to all the vertical hunters out there...There is room for change just as we all look at the newest Mathews, Bowtech, Hoyt and the list goes on. I have embraced the opportunity, tried it and will continue to hunt with each weapon allowed by law. For all of you that ML, I shoot a Savage 10ml smokeless. Why you ask "BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO". If the vertical bowmen are afraid of sharing the woods why not change the archery season to Traditional/Recurve and then let the compounds be used the last 2 weeks of archery. The woods will be really empty then. The reason "it is so easy to shoot a xbow" is the same reason that most of us went to the compound "they're easier to shoot" but no more deadly


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## Manygobbles

*Introduction*

Hello all. This is my first post here, except for a test post. I would like to start out by stating that I do not intend to insult anybody, and will have respect for the board. I did get led here by the ongoing crossbow debate, particulary this one. I do have 10 years experience in Wildlife Law Enforcement, and more importantly in State Government. I also hold a B.A. in Criminal Justice, however I am not a suit driving around in a BMW. I left this work after reaching the vested retirement time. I now get dirty, have callouses on my hands, and very strongly believe in working to earn the things I desire. I wear holey jeans and eat catfish and taters, and backstrap. I do have pet peeves, and one of them is the entitlement expectation of some individuals. I also despise corruption in government. So many people today have some sense of entitlement that things are due them without the work and sweat that past individuals have had to endure to earn these things. They really, honestly believe these things are due them.

The relavence of all this ? The crossbow. That is my opinion. All these years, as far as I can remember, the early Louisiana archery season opened October1. Any person whatsoever can go out and buy a bow-and-arrow, practice and work at it during the off season, and become proficient. They can hit the woods October1. 

What I oppose is the individual who, able-bodied, chooses not to do all of this work that is required to be successful , but who now wants that quick fix, give me now privledge of entering the October woods to hunt without all that work. Have you ever been stuck in traffic, maybe in an exit lane off the interstate, traffic barely moving, and the cars to your left are speeding ahead in the next lane, to the front of the traffic, then force their way in the front, into the exit lane ? " Be darned if I'm gonna wait in that line." 
That is the same characteristics as what is occurring here with the crossbow issue. 

Honestly, without any disrespect intent, one cannot help but to see this as plum lazy. Able-bodied but chooses not to. Now wants the "quick fix." 
Look at the percentage of obise members of society today. Really. We need to do just like the AA classes, to stop all this bickering. I would think more of an individual who simply comes out and admits, " hey, I'm too lazy for all that bow-and-arrow hum bug, I'll just wait for the gun season." Now that is a man. Or a woman. 

I would love to hear WHY. WHY when able bodied, and free to buy the bow-and-arrow, practice, work to get proficient, and join in the early archery season, WHY does the individual who makes a choice not to, now feel he/she is entitled to the privledge that the working persons have, without the work ? Surely, I know I would feel like a Freedy-The-Freeloader if I were in that boat. I couldn't look those archers in the face. I am uncomfortable unless I carry my weight in work. But this is the characteristic that is disappearing today. 

I am not a member of the Bayou State Bowhunter's Association, BUT I will be very, very soon. 

That is my take on this crossbow issue.


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## progers

Long Boy said:


> I may stir up something with this next statement. Bowhunters in general are a better class of hunter.
> 
> I say this because we do our best to get in and out of the woods as quiet and as scent free and possable. What that does is make the woods less weary to WT deer. Most rifle hunters dont care about scent and why would they?
> 
> Think about this most people who want to use a crossbow dont have the will or want to learn to use normal archey equipment and is looking for the easy way out.


So, these are your reasons?

So, you are saying that all the rest of the hunters out there, the people like me, don't care about the woods, the animals and covering their scent and enjoying the thrill of their moment in the outdoors! 

Man, I have to be honest! I'm glad I didn't say that! That is gonna offend quite a few folks!  

I can tell you, I respect everything and everyone when it comes to hunting and the outdoors.


----------



## cynic

Manygobbles Without quoting your entire post. I will answer it simply "freedom of choice"..Why would any able bodied person that is able to draw a recurve shoot a compound "because you can shoot farther and faster hold it longer." Compounds are easier. That arguement that you work harder if you shoot a vertical bow just won't fly. We as hunters and sportsmen owe it to future hunters to give them as many opportunities as possible. There is room for compromise. Last weeks of archery and the late primitive weapons isn't too much to ask. Like I said I am an outsider with my own opinions. I hunt from the first day of archery to the last day of late primitive. Nothing I have is Primitive but as long as they allow it I will use it


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## Fireemt124

So I am lazy if I decide I want to use a crossbow? You know it's characterizations like this that is my pet peeve. Noone here knows anything about me except what I put on my profile. You say someone who wants a crossbow is too lazy to work for hunting. I'll bet I am in the woods as much as you or any of your buddies. I put the time in with my bow and my rifle to be the best shot I can be, and to guarantee a quick clean kill. Lazy? I work 12 hour shifts and then stay on call as a volunteer firefighter/emt in one of the busiest rural depts. in the state. Why? because I love it. Why do I hunt? because I love it. But to be looked down on because I would choose to use a weapon that does not have any proven detriment to the sport of hunting just because somebody does not like it is arrogant and self serving. Sorry if this offends anyone but I am tired of generaliztions like this just to argue against a weapon.


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## Manygobbles

*just a reply*

but, without comparing weapons, etc. this one more effective than that, .... 
just on the work issue alone, Wouldn't you feel like a Freedy-The-Freeloader ? Wouldn't you have some sort of feeling that you are cheating, by not having done the work that so many a traditional hunters have done. Could you really sit around a campfire at night with these bow-and-arrow hunters and proudly hold your head up and feel like you are part of the team , having chose not to hunt this season in the past, but now having found a quick fix to get in without all the work ? You really could feel belonging ? I would have my head stuck in the sand. Yall keep walking around the question. WHY? Why able before, but chose not to, now want the quick fix in ? WHY ? That's all I ask ? The only answer is, " this is why I want in now, but chose not to before, ....... " That is the only answer. Don't bring on the weapon comparisons. Here, I'll start it for you. 

I , ________________ have chosen not to participate in the early archery season in the past, because _______________________
________________________________________________________, and now I wish to participate by way of crossbow because ___________________.


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## Fireemt124

I , Fireemt124 has hunted in the early archery season for the past 10 years, because I love to hunt. And now I wish to participate by way of crossbow because I am not too good to hunt with a weapon that is a proven method of taking game, and I don't look down on those who choose to be different.


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## Long Boy

progers said:


> So, these are your reasons?
> 
> So, you are saying that all the rest of the hunters out there, the people like me, don't care about the woods, the animals and covering their scent and enjoying the thrill of their moment in the outdoors!
> 
> Man, I have to be honest! I'm glad I didn't say that! That is gonna offend quite a few folks!
> 
> I can tell you, I respect everything and everyone when it comes to hunting and the outdoors.


 Yeah I had the gumption to say and I stick by it. I didnt say you were a lesser class hunter. Im just sayin ive seen the people who are out for whatever is the easiest way to take a deer.The Xbow season opens and Joe Blow goes buys him a xbow a few days before the season starts and hits the woods, more than likely never practiced more than a few times just to get it sighted in. Just like I think the state shouldnt have let you take two deer a day on either sex day on public lands. Its getting where there are less and less deer on public lands. When I say public lands I mean state WMA's. You want to get kids into hunting? Start them out on squirrels or ducks something they can get a lot of shooting in and keep thier attention. NOTHING will turn a kid off to hunting more than just sitting in a tree staying still while waiting for a deer to come in range of a Xbow.


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## Fireemt124

Manygobbles said:


> but, without comparing weapons, etc. this one more effective than that, ....
> just on the work issue alone, Wouldn't you feel like a Freedy-The-Freeloader ? Wouldn't you have some sort of feeling that you are cheating, by not having done the work that so many a traditional hunters have done.


Why? Because I don't belong to an organization that chooses to be exclusive to anybody that doesn't follow their way of thinking.


----------



## progers

Manygobbles said:


> but, without comparing weapons, etc. this one more effective than that, ....
> just on the work issue alone, Wouldn't you feel like a Freedy-The-Freeloader ? Wouldn't you have some sort of feeling that you are cheating, by not having done the work that so many a traditional hunters have done. Could you really sit around a campfire at night with these bow-and-arrow hunters and proudly hold your head up and feel like you are part of the team , having chose not to hunt this season in the past, but now having found a quick fix to get in without all the work ? You really could feel belonging ? I would have my head stuck in the sand. Yall keep walking around the question. WHY? Why able before, but chose not to, now want the quick fix in ? WHY ? That's all I ask ? The only answer is, " this is why I want in now, but chose not to before, ....... " That is the only answer. Don't bring on the weapon comparisons. Here, I'll start it for you.
> 
> I , ________________ have chosen not to participate in the early archery season in the past, because _______________________
> ________________________________________________________, and now I wish to participate by way of crossbow because ___________________.





Thanks for pointing that out MG. 

The reason WHY now and not before.

The advancement of the compound over the past 15 years has opened the door for the crossbow. The compound was already one up on the "traditional" bow hunters when it entered the woods. Compound bow manufactorers are striving for the best of the best in technology. They are striving for 100% let off. What is it up to now? They getting real close, aren't they!?!

It is not me that is just now bringing this to the table. It is the advancement of the compound that has put itself in the same competition with a xbow. I didn't do that.


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## Manygobbles

*there it is again*

weapon comparisons. I want to hear the work, or lack thereof side of it. Why, with head held high in pride, did they chose not to before by way of work and practice, but now, with the onset of a possible quick fix way in, without all the work, want to join in the traditional archery season?


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## progers

Manygobbles said:


> weapon comparisons. I want to hear the work, or lack thereof side of it. Why, with head held high in pride, did they chose not to before by way of work and practice, but now, with the onset of a possible quick fix way in, without all the work, want to join in the traditional archery season?



My first bow: I bought it brand new. Custom fitted to my every need. It was perfect. Got it home. Shot it for about an hour. Went hunting that afternoon. Shot a 3pt. at 22 yards out of a climber. Never shot out of a tree I might add. Deer ran 30 yards, piled up. Meat in the freezer. It was very exciting, don't get me wrong. But, it wasn't hard. Just beating the "buck fever" which every gun hunter gets, is the hard part.


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## Manygobbles

*ok*

with more and more deer sightings, like even in the off season, turkey season, and I guess, If your occupation put you in the woods regulary, where you get to see deer, just deer, deer, deer, see deer, .... this tends to really calm the shakes down. You eventually become "iceman"  

Fireemt from Shreveport, hey, you did it for 10 years. I really cannot argue with you. Credit where it is due. If you win, and the LA legislature passes it, I cannot call you lazy. But the organization comment , I wouldn't deem the organization as biased. Unless, you have been there and done that, inside, how could you know. Boy I could take off on that subject, in re to another situation.


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## progers

Manygobbles said:


> with more and more deer sightings, like even in the off season, turkey season, and I guess, If your occupation put you in the woods regulary, where you get to see deer, just deer, deer, deer, see deer, .... this tends to really calm the shakes down. You eventually become "iceman"



My occupation has nothing to do with it. That happened many many years ago. I was only 21, recently married with a child and working night shifts in a plant. I had to get my wife and baby to drop me off at the deer lease 30 minutes from the house as we only had one vehicle.

Yes, now almost 15 years later, I have the occupation you are speaking of. Only beed doing that for 1 1/2 years.

The debate is not my job. The debate is crossbows, why should or shouldn't be legal for all individuals who wish to use.


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## Fireemt124

Manygobbles said:


> :
> 
> But the organization comment , I wouldn't deem the organization as biased. Unless, you have been there and done that, inside, how could you know. Boy I could take off on that subject, in re to another situation.


You are right. I have not ever belonged to that organization and I am sure there are many fine people there. Hey, they have to be, they're hunters. I apologize to anybody I may have offended. I am not in this to detract from anybody and again I am sorry if this seemed a personal attack to anyone. As I said earlier, I wish there was a way we could find a medium to work together on this. I know people that would never use a crossbow, but I know just as many who would love to try it. I do not think I am entitled to it, I do believe there should be a choice, just like there is a choice when ML, or gun season starts. Once more, I apologize for making a remark on a general view when I hate the same being done to me. This is one of the biggest debates I have been a part of and I do not want to make enemies of any fellow hunter.


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## Manygobbles

*progers*

I was only suggesting ways of beating the buck fever. Seeing deer more regulary seems to work. 

We all know where we all stand on the xbow. Lets just battle it out in Baton Rouge. No sense in us beating the keyboards. :zip:


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## progers

Manygobbles said:


> I was only suggesting ways of beating the buck fever. Seeing deer more regulary seems to work.
> 
> We all know where we all stand on the xbow. Lets just battle it out in Baton Rouge. No sense in us beating the keyboards. :zip:



Beating buck fever had nothing to do with the story I told. You missed the whole point.

Yes, we know where you stand, that point has been made clear. Alot of us are still wondering why.


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## DJH

*I, Daniel James Hendricks*

I, Daniel James Hendricks have been an avid bowhunter for 33 years. The first 14 years, I chose to hunt with a Ben Pearson recurve. The rest of those years I hunted with a compound bow because it allowed me to be more accurate and more effective. For the last twelve years I have hunted with the crossbow when and where I had the opportunity to do so. I will hunt with a vertical bow until I am no longer able to draw it back because it is a superior weapon to any crossbow I have ever shot. But since my mind is open and I am always willing to learn about new things, I play with the crossbow when I get a chance. 

When I discovered that much of the information that had been put into my head by archers who hated the crossbow was extremely erroneous, biased and blatantly untrue, I came to resent these malicious archers. I chose to participate in crossbow hunting to learn all that I could about it, not just to spite those who claim it is evil and wrong, but also because it is great fun and an interesting new challenge. Now, if this makes me a bad person, a lazy slob hunter or less of a man in the eyes of those that consider themselves, by self-proclamation, the most elite of hunting, then they had better go see an optician because they obviously need glasses. Thick ones!


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## Tim4Trout

In response to some of the statements made in post #21 by Pistol in La



> If they have a legitimate reason for not being able to use a compound or traditional equipment. They shouldn't have a problem obtaining a legal disabled or handicapped permit.


I don't know about Louisiana, but too many states have restrictions on crossbows that place those between "abled" and "qualified for crossbow disabled" out in the cold. In fact I know of one individual in New York who can't get a crossbow permit in that state, even though he is stricken with multiple sclerosis and confined to a wheelchair.



> Do you have to have a crossbow to take your child hunting ? I don't. I have a 15 yr. old 90 lb daughter that is very effective with a 35lb. Parker compound and has taken game with it.


Unfortunately, depending on the state, 35 lbs. is usually at or below the minimum legal poundage for deer. Also kinetic energy is low requiring little leeway for shot placement. 



> The range of an effective weapon is only as good as the person shooting it. Regular bowhunters practice more than crossbow or rifle hunters on the average.


It is the ability of the shooter that is affected with practice, not the weapon's range.



> You're correct !! It is a form of archery equipment. Just like a 22 is a rifle, you just don't hunt all game with it.


One does not hunt certain animals with certain weapons because it is unfeasable. Shotguns which expell multiple projectiles are used for shooting game that is usually shot while the game is in motion because a multiple projectile ( several pellets of # 4 shot ) holds a better chance of striking the target than a single projectile from a rifle.

Crossbows are certainly feasable for taking deer, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed period.



> How can you honestly believe that a crossbow can get more people involved in hunting. We need to change America.


It provide an additional option of available equipment



> Why can't regular archery equipment perform the same duties for urban population control or is a crossbow to be used only ? You did say they're quite equal in ballistics, effectiveness, and I'm positive the compound is quieter so when I shoot I want wake the little ladies kids.


While a crossbow may be noisier that a compound, its sound does not equate to a 30.06 or 12 gauge



> Like I said earlier. I don't think that crossbow shooters and or gun hunters for the most part practice enough and learn totally the limitations of their equipment.


There is also no guarantee that the person hunting with a "vertical" bow has practiced and become as proficient as he need be either.


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## cynic

How many of the hunters on this forum shoot compounds? My first was a Bear with 50% letoff with a very small valley almost as if there was no letoff. Then the 65% that was great then the 75% now I have 87%. I have shot the best of the best Blackknight dually, Pro 38, Allegiance, Patriot, switchback Slayr, Edge, CK3.4r never been a Hoyt man even tho they are great bows. Why because they have the newest innovations, the fastest speads best trajectory, smoothest draw, highest letoff all with the latest great sights rests and releases. I guess that makes me lazy since I can draw a recurve. The crossbow give another challenge. I have bowhunted for as long as I can remember and like many I thought that shooting game with a crossbow would be a cakewalk but it isn't. There is still movement, noise and it is cumbersome. I have read post about being legal for handicapped and over 65. I know many archers over 65 that can still draw a bow and shoot being 65 or older isn't a handicap but the law allows them a CHOICE. That is the same as many other archers, they deserve to have a choice. Many occupations and families don't allow for the time to get proficient but some on this forum believe that if you don't put in the precious time you are lazy, "wrong". I was raised that God is #1, Family #2 and job are #3 Priority. Never put anything in front of those. Just because you don't have time that others have doesn't make you lazy. If the person using a xbow is a sportsman and it lets them enjoy what GOD gave all of us I am all for it. I believe that unless the compounds are taken out of archery season that the xbow is of no threat to archery season. With the arguements about xbows only one thing comes to mind, Mathews-- inovation after inovation after inovation THE SWITCHBACK taking archery to the next level. The next level is the xbow. Accept it, embrace it, and enjoy having a choice to use a xbow not that you will or won't. In my opinion if you shoot a compound less than 5yrs old with a 75% letoff with sights rest and a release, it is no different than a xbow other than the grip


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## doctariAFC

*So far, the debate is nice.....*

This is the type of dialog we would like to see on this sensitive issue. You all are doing an exemplary job, please keep it up. Everyone should know that I am an EOP (Equal Opportunity Prick) and will not hesitate to pull the trigger on anyone I find violating the rules.

Debate on legal issues is YOUR RIGHT as an American. It is NOT your right to simply bash and denegrate anyone on the opposite side. Debate of issues is how we all come to a means to overcome these issues, but, continuance of this right is in YOUR hands. 

Now, both sides of the coin seem miles apart, but are we really? Perhaps we take a list of objections or a list against the crossbow, and now view these positions against FACTS, rather than feelings. Ditto on the for crossbows side. FACTS not feelings.

One tangible fact I will bring to the table is this:

When compound bow introduction in the 1960's came about, the traditional archers agrued against the compound bow USING THE SAME REASONS THEN AS ARE BEING USED AGAINST THE CROSSBOW. SAME REASONS.

Understanding this, what DIFFERENT argument against the crossbow do you have? What is the real reason for the anti stance? I have been trying to understand this for a very long time, and I have yet to get a sound, logical answer that can be backed up with facts, rather than torn apart by facts.

Being from NY, and being an acrhery hunter, and having friends that can either no longer draw a vertical bow due to age or disease, and having a very close, long time friend who had his arm crushed in a car accident, which precludes him from even using a modified compound or recurve (elbow fused, cannot hold a vertical bow in a vertical position!) and I do have a string leaning towards allowing another choice. Also, being from NY, I do not favor any system which requires a government worker to verify doctor's notes, check birth certificates, or leave it up to them to define any one else's "handicap", especially at a cost to taxpayers, the conservation fund, or any other part of a State Wildlife Agency's budget. Not when choice eliminates this added cost.

Let's get some solid fact based discussion, and do something everyone says is impossible! Have a constructive, productive and insightful discussion into the crossbow issue...

Thanks, your resident EOP Moderator, politically involved and connected Outdoors Writer in New York State, Rich Davenport...


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## progers

*Uniting all archers...*

another reason:


It will put an end to the prejudice, infighting and cannibalism in the world of archery today.

The feeding frenzy that hi tech compounds are causing are the main reason for alot of this. It even has the compound users attacking each other over which brand is better than the other.

The advancement of the compound is what opened the door for the crossbow to be legal. Not the lazy people.

We are sportsman first. I think that some lose that along the way. We must stick together as a whole, not divide amoungst ourselfs and take pop shots at fellow hunters. They are our brothers.


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## Marvin

progers said:


> another reason:
> 
> 
> It will put an end to the prejudice, infighting and cannibalism in the world of archery today.
> 
> The feeding frenzy that hi tech compounds are causing are the main reason for alot of this. It even has the compound users attacking each other over which brand is better than the other.
> 
> The advancement of the compound is what opened the door for the crossbow to be legal. Not the lazy people.
> 
> We are sportsman first. I think that some lose that along the way. We must stick together as a whole, not divide amoungst ourselfs and take pop shots at fellow hunters. They are our brothers.



you have have no idea what can of worms you are about to open. it will divide sportsman even further. ohio is a prime example.


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## Marvin

DJH said:


> I, Daniel James Hendricks have been an avid bowhunter for 33 years. The first 14 years, I chose to hunt with a Ben Pearson recurve. The rest of those years I hunted with a compound bow because it allowed me to be more accurate and more effective. For the last twelve years I have hunted with the crossbow when and where I had the opportunity to do so. I will hunt with a vertical bow until I am no longer able to draw it back because it is a superior weapon to any crossbow I have ever shot. But since my mind is open and I am always willing to learn about new things, I play with the crossbow when I get a chance.
> 
> When I discovered that much of the information that had been put into my head by archers who hated the crossbow was extremely erroneous, biased and blatantly untrue, I came to resent these malicious archers. I chose to participate in crossbow hunting to learn all that I could about it, not just to spite those who claim it is evil and wrong, but also because it is great fun and an interesting new challenge. Now, if this makes me a bad person, a lazy slob hunter or less of a man in the eyes of those that consider themselves, by self-proclamation, the most elite of hunting, then they had better go see an optician because they obviously need glasses. Thick ones!



so everyone knows...this guy likes to stir things up and likes to throw around labels. A cynic for sure.....by his standards you are not allowed to have an opinion that differes from his or your an elitist snob.

*** Please Marvin, no personal insights or opinions on posters. Debate the laws and proposed alws, not who is debating any side. Thanks doctariAFC ***


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> you have have no idea what can of worms you are about to open. it will divide sportsman even further. ohio is a prime example.



Actually Ohio is proof that all sorts of bows can be used in the same season without any problems

Nothing is funnier than watching certain people bash xbow hunters as being lazy when those same bashers are using compound bows and releases

I will ask my normal question that never gets answered-how is someone else's choice of archery equipment relevant to you? How are you hurt if they have to practice less than you do in order to make an ethical shot?


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## progers

Marvin said:


> you have have no idea what can of worms you are about to open. it will divide sportsman even further. ohio is a prime example.



Before you twist my words, let me say that even rifle hunters will brag about "their" equipment. Even **** hunters will brag about the breed of dog that is better. 

I was simply refering to the bow bashing thread that was started here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=275430
sorry for bringing up dirty laundry. I love how the good people took care of this situation. It says alot for hunters as a whole. 

As I bowhunted over the years, I have noticed this trend. Tho be it a small percentage, but a percentage with a big chip on their shoulders. 

There is no debate if crossbows should be legal during mzl and reg gun seasons. That is a no brainer. I think that the debate should lie mainly upon the bowhunters perspective at this point.

Should it be considered in the archery season? Should traditionalist get their week? Compounds theirs? Xbows theirs? Or, since game laws are already in place to protect the animals, should we just thro the xbow in the mix. 

The way I see the advatages of things, I say them dudes who shoot recurve and longbow have 0 advantages! I respect that. I can't do it, not consistantly anyway. 

We have come to a point in time where the hunting the world is dominated by leases, clubs and ranches that go out of their way to help manage deer. You will find that the majority of us hunt these types of land. The other is WMA's or public land. The point I am getting at is, these leases, clubs, and ranches have the ability to create bi-laws to control the hunters. Since all these leases, clubs and ranches are doing the right thing as it is, for the most part, they can determine if they want the crossbow in their organizations. As far as the guy down at the WMA area, well that is first come first serve. It is for the people as a whole, not individuals.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Before you twist my words, let me say that even rifle hunters will brag about "their" equipment. Even **** hunters will brag about the breed of dog that is better.
> 
> I was simply refering to the bow bashing thread that was started here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=275430
> sorry for bringing up dirty laundry. I love how the good people took care of this situation. It says alot for hunters as a whole.
> 
> As I bowhunted over the years, I have noticed this trend. Tho be it a small percentage, but a percentage with a big chip on their shoulders.
> 
> There is no debate if crossbows should be legal during mzl and reg gun seasons. That is a no brainer. I think that the debate should lie mainly upon the bowhunters perspective at this point.
> 
> 
> Should it be considered in the archery season? Should traditionalist get their week? Compounds theirs? Xbows theirs? Or, since game laws are already in place to protect the animals, should we just thro the xbow in the mix.
> 
> The way I see the advatages of things, I say them dudes who shoot recurve and longbow have 0 advantages! I respect that. I can't do it, not consistantly anyway.
> 
> We have come to a point in time where the hunting the world is dominated by leases, clubs and ranches that go out of their way to help manage deer. You will find that the majority of us hunt these types of land. The other is WMA's or public land. The point I am getting at is, these leases, clubs, and ranches have the ability to create bi-laws to control the hunters. Since all these leases, clubs and ranches are doing the right thing as it is, for the most part, they can determine if they want the crossbow in their organizations. As far as the guy down at the WMA area, well that is first come first serve. It is for the people as a whole, not individuals.



Interesting point made on the leases and by laws.....but they don't control the animals. I will admit I have not heard of that before since we do not have them here in the capacity of the south. ( hunting clubs and large tracts of land for leases ). My question to you is why? is there some opportunity not had by everyone already under the current law? another question is why are you using the bylaws of clubs and ranches as a means of justifying the inclusion of the crossbow for everyone?


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## progers

Marvin said:


> so everyone knows...this guy likes to stir things up and likes to throw around labels. A cynic for sure.....by his standards you are not allowed to have an opinion that differes from his or your an elitist snob.
> 
> *** Please Marvin, no personal insights or opinions on posters. Debate the laws and proposed alws, not who is debating any side. Thanks doctariAFC ***



I would just like to say that the members of the ACF are a respectable organization that stands for the rights of ALL hunters using ALL "tool" that are deemed to be effictive and ethical by way of hunting game. 

Sorry for getting off topic.


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## progers

Marvin said:


> Interesting point made on the leases and by laws.....but they don't control the animals. I will admit I have not heard of that before since we do not have them here in the capacity of the south. ( hunting clubs and large tracts of land for leases ). My question to you is why? is there some opportunity not had by everyone already under the current law? another question is why are you using the bylaws of clubs and ranches as a means of justifying the inclusion of the crossbow for everyone?


Fact: Louisiana is full of hunting clubs, private land, private land leases and ranches.

Fact: One of the reasons the "opposition" gives is that the introduction of the xbow is going to bring all these "lazy" people into the woods and it will disturb their hunting space.

Explanation: If you have a club, lease, private land or ranch and you honestly think that all these people are crowding your space in the outdoors, then you have the ability to stop them, as a majority club vote. Make up a bi-law to keep those who YOU feel shouldn't tred on YOUR space out. Any other hunting area, you have NO right to complain.


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## Marvin

progers said:


> Fact: Louisiana is full of hunting clubs, private land, private land leases and ranches.
> 
> Fact: One of the reasons the "opposition" gives is that the introduction of the xbow is going to bring all these "lazy" people into the woods and it will disturb their hunting space.
> 
> Explanation: If you have a club, lease, private land or ranch and you honestly think that all these people are crowding your space in the outdoors, then you have the ability to stop them, as a majority club vote. Make up a bi-law to keep those who YOU feel shouldn't tred on YOUR space out. Any other hunting area, you have NO right to complain.



so much for a civil debate? wanted to insert a "Sorry Doctari" here. 


your facts are correct but logic is flawed. the STATE regulates the taking of game, which for all intensive purposes belongs to everyone in LA. so it temporarily resides on property does not mean you should have the right to govern yourself individually....thats why the state does it. I will ask again,

is there some opportunity not had by everyone already under the current law?


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> Fact: Louisiana is full of hunting clubs, private land, private land leases and ranches.
> 
> Fact: One of the reasons the "opposition" gives is that the introduction of the xbow is going to bring all these "lazy" people into the woods and it will disturb their hunting space.
> 
> Explanation: If you have a club, lease, private land or ranch and you honestly think that all these people are crowding your space in the outdoors, then you have the ability to stop them, as a majority club vote. Make up a bi-law to keep those who YOU feel shouldn't tred on YOUR space out. Any other hunting area, you have NO right to complain.



here is what is really happening. Some Compound archers don't want any more people hunting because they think more people hunting=less chance that they will be able to shoot the deer they think they "deserve". They thus want to draw the line so as to exclude anyone who has to spend less time mastering the equipment than they do. All the whining about "too easy""lazy" etc is nothing more than a facade for selfishness. The idea of these people is to have a certain time cost in equipment mastery so as to exclude those who allegedly are not willing to pay that time cost

this is a shortsighted attitude because there is no guarantee that compound hunters actually practice and in the public perception arena, being against accuracy is a losing strategy.

what is true is that unless you are using a self bow you made by hand, claiming someone else is "lazy" is seething hypocrisy and really not relevant anyway because game seasons are not concerned with how much time you have to practice but rather predicted harvest rates


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> I would just like to say that the members of the ACF are a respectable organization that stands for the rights of ALL hunters using ALL "tool" that are deemed to be effictive and ethical by way of hunting game.
> 
> Sorry for getting off topic.



thats subject to debate. But i will say we already have such an organization...it called SCI. sorry for getting off topic


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> here is what is really happening. Some Compound archers don't want any more people hunting because they think more people hunting=less chance that they will be able to shoot the deer they think they "deserve". They thus want to draw the line so as to exclude anyone who has to spend less time mastering the equipment than they do. All the whining about "too easy""lazy" etc is nothing more than a facade for selfishness. The idea of these people is to have a certain time cost in equipment mastery so as to exclude those who allegedly are not willing to pay that time cost
> 
> this is a shortsighted attitude because there is no guarantee that compound hunters actually practice and in the public perception arena, being against accuracy is a losing strategy.
> 
> what is true is that unless you are using a self bow you made by hand, claiming someone else is "lazy" is seething hypocrisy and really not relevant anyway because game seasons are not concerned with how much time you have to practice but rather predicted harvest rates



welcome back jim....we never got to finish our Mississippi thread....shall we continue? were did that go by the way?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> welcome back jim....we never got to finish our Mississippi thread....shall we continue? were did that go by the way?



I suspect, though I have no proof that the moderator on the Hunting section zapped the entire thing-he is anti xbow and probably didn't like the way things were going. I know it was completely erased with no warning
If you hit your profile and look for your posts, none of the ones you had on that thread exist anymore.

every year it seems another state legalizes xbows-pretty soon these debates will be moot


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> so much for a civil debate? wanted to insert a "Sorry Doctari" here.
> 
> 
> your facts are correct but logic is flawed. the STATE regulates the taking of game, which for all intensive purposes belongs to everyone in LA. so it temporarily resides on property does not mean you should have the right to govern yourself individually....thats why the state does it. I will ask again,
> 
> is there some opportunity not had by everyone already under the current law?



My facts are correct and YOUR understanding of what I wrote is flawed.

What I said is, the bi-laws can govern the means of the type of weapons they desire to have fired on their property as long as the state approves of the weapon. The can not govern the game regulations on bag limits, unless if you are DMAP of course. Then you are allowed to step out-of-the-box on yearly bag limits.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> welcome back jim....we never got to finish our Mississippi thread....shall we continue? were did that go by the way?



I would have to say that it looks like the great people of Mississippi get to use xbows as of the 05' - 06' season. :cocktail:


----------



## doctariAFC

Thanks Marvin, for the apology extended for all. I do appreciate it.

Now, we all certainly must contend with each State's own nuances regarding access in private lands, public lands, leasing, etc. This dynamic changes from state to state, and any light that can be shed on this is most helpful in understanding the inherent challenges facing any change to specific state laws.

We appreciate the basic education concerning LA's land access laws and whatnot. We also need to realize the facts in the matter as well. Does anyone have the trends for hunting in Louisiana, participation and dollars, with demopgrapics trends, and a look by season participation? I can certainly do this work, as I have all state-specific data from USF&W, but let's see the challenges from LA coming from LA, documenteed with facts.

Also, how has the harvest conditions been? What is the success rate for harvest - bucks, does, total. By season/ implement.

How about estimated deer populations? How are habitat conditions in LA?

Finally, what are the goals of hunters and sportsmen in LA? What is the objective of permitting crossbows, and does evidence support this move through meeting goals in other states? 

Let's get refined here, and do things that are different than what politicians do....


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> I would have to say that it looks like the great people of Mississippi get to use xbows as of the 05' - 06' season. :cocktail:


I will ask one more time 


is there some opportunity not had by everyone already under the current law?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I suspect, though I have no proof that the moderator on the Hunting section zapped the entire thing-he is anti xbow and probably didn't like the way things were going. I know it was completely erased with no warning
> If you hit your profile and look for your posts, none of the ones you had on that thread exist anymore.
> 
> every year it seems another state legalizes xbows-pretty soon these debates will be moot



I suspected the same thing but I was surprised it was deleted and not moved. Too bad. we just get to go through the whole thing again...:wink:


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Thanks Marvin, for the apology extended for all. I do appreciate it.
> 
> Now, we all certainly must contend with each State's own nuances regarding access in private lands, public lands, leasing, etc. This dynamic changes from state to state, and any light that can be shed on this is most helpful in understanding the inherent challenges facing any change to specific state laws.
> 
> We appreciate the basic education concerning LA's land access laws and whatnot. We also need to realize the facts in the matter as well. Does anyone have the trends for hunting in Louisiana, participation and dollars, with demopgrapics trends, and a look by season participation? I can certainly do this work, as I have all state-specific data from USF&W, but let's see the challenges from LA coming from LA, documenteed with facts.
> 
> Also, how has the harvest conditions been? What is the success rate for harvest - bucks, does, total. By season/ implement.
> 
> How about estimated deer populations? How are habitat conditions in LA?
> 
> Finally, what are the goals of hunters and sportsmen in LA? What is the objective of permitting crossbows, and does evidence support this move through meeting goals in other states?
> 
> Let's get refined here, and do things that are different than what politicians do....



doc thats a good post. true facts always help move things along.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> I will ask one more time
> 
> 
> is there some opportunity not had by everyone already under the current law?




YES, the current law infringes upon the rights of many idividuals who wish to expand their opportunities as a sportsman. 




Doc C, I will have to get back to you on those numbers. I will have to hunt them up. I can tell you that LA has alot of area that is 30+ deer per sq. mile. I can tell you that in a majority of the larger areas in louisiana has went to exceedingly high doe days over the past 10 years. Area 2 is the largest area in LA. This is where I hunt. Habitat is great, productive rate is great, deer are healthy. We have went from just a few doe days per year to 28 just in regular gun season. This year, the LDWF wrote the next three years of regulations all at the same time. Never seen that happen here before. The state allows X number of deer to be harvested. We come no where near that. The coastal areas do lack in population #'s of deer. The majority of the state is good to go!


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> YES, the current law infringes upon the rights of many idividuals who wish to expand their opportunities as a sportsman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doc C, I will have to get back to you on those numbers. I will have to hunt them up. I can tell you that LA has alot of area that is 30+ deer per sq. mile. I can tell you that in a majority of the larger areas in louisiana has went to exceedingly high doe days over the past 10 years. Area 2 is the largest area in LA. This is where I hunt. Habitat is great, productive rate is great, deer are healthy. We have went from just a few doe days per year to 28 just in regular gun season. This year, the LDWF wrote the next three years of regulations all at the same time. Never seen that happen here before. The state allows X number of deer to be harvested. We come no where near that. The coastal areas do lack in population #'s of deer. The majority of the state is good to go!



which are what? kill a deer with a bow and arrow? do you not already have the ability to use a crossbow for the disabled? what is your goal of introducing this change?


----------



## progers

*Ohio results for Marvin...*

A very interesting read in the positive effects of the crossbow in Ohio. This was witten and published in Maine by a Maine freelance writer so, there is no bias from the reporter. 

http://outdoors.mainetoday.com/hunting/humphrey041024.shtml


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> A very interesting read in the positive effects of the crossbow in Ohio. This was witten and published in Maine by a Maine freelance writer so, there is no bias from the reporter.
> 
> http://outdoors.mainetoday.com/hunting/humphrey041024.shtml


 everyone is biased in one way or another. yes, even me he was hunting with a rep from ten point....hhhmmmm . the ohio information is moot. we have no way of accurately tracking statistics in our own state. email them and ask. we do not differentiate between gun and archery tags or weapon used. speculation is the best way to describe it.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> which are what? kill a deer with a bow and arrow? do you not already have the ability to use a crossbow for the disabled? what is your goal of introducing this change?



I can't understand your first two questions.

Yes, there is a law in LA that states only seniors and/or handicap can use the xbow in deer season. You can't even rabbit hunt with a xbow here. 

My goal in introducing this change is a positive one for all parties involved. It seems the reasons of the minority that oppose it do so with "greedy" intentions and prejudice to all hunters.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> everyone is biased in one way or another. yes, even me he was hunting with a rep from ten point....hhhmmmm . the ohio information is moot. we have no way of accurately tracking statistics in our own state. email them and ask. we do not differentiate between gun and archery tags or weapon used. speculation is the best way to describe it.



The statistics he uses are from the Ohio game commission. The Ohio game commission is not bias. You shot what he said down the minute you read he hunted with a crossbow, didn't you?


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> The statistics he uses are from the Ohio game commission. The Ohio game commission is not bias. You shot what he said down the minute you read he hunted with a crossbow, didn't you?


There is no objective argument available to those who want to restrict crossbows. as such factual debates and statistics really don't matter to the crossbow excluders because their positions are not a result of empirical evidence


----------



## progers

*looking for reasons...*



Marvin said:


> everyone is biased in one way or another. yes, even me he was hunting with a rep from ten point....hhhmmmm . the ohio information is moot. we have no way of accurately tracking statistics in our own state. email them and ask. we do not differentiate between gun and archery tags or weapon used. speculation is the best way to describe it.













Please Marvin, list the reasons why YOU feel the xbow should not be introduced to LA or any other state for that matter.


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> everyone is biased in one way or another. yes, even me he was hunting with a rep from ten point....hhhmmmm . the ohio information is moot. we have no way of accurately tracking statistics in our own state. email them and ask. we do not differentiate between gun and archery tags or weapon used. speculation is the best way to describe it.


This is an interesting post, and really serves to underscore an article on current politics today found on FoxNews. Link to article below.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182641,00.html

Although this article applies to party politics, the SAME principles hold true with the crossbow, or not to crossbow debate. 

If we have a disagreement with evidence and/ or facts being presented, by either side, let's try deflating or debasing the facts you disagree with through presenting other facts! Discrediting facts presented, or evidence presented by attempting to inject an opinion (like "he was hunting with tenpoint rep, therefore the source is biased") doesn't cut it. Rather, this means of debate is emotionally based, using emotion to discredit evidence, which doesn't accomplish the desired goal of disproving a point made. Rather, it only serves to throw fuel on an already emotionally charged discussion, which then leads to the name calling and the like.

I think most here are capable to discarding some emotion. I have had enough back and forths with many here to be confident in this statement, even in the context of crossbow debate. 

Please, let's use facts and evidence, rather than feelings and opinions. Doing so will bring us together more. The other way serves to divide.

NOw, if facts are presented, that you simply choose to ignore or disbelieve because its contrary to your position (on either side), sorry. That's the way it is.... This extends to both sides.....


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> There is no objective argument available to those who want to restrict crossbows. as such factual debates and statistics really don't matter to the crossbow excluders because their positions are not a result of empirical evidence


 STAND BACK JIM...I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU HERE.....BUT that also means there is no empirical data to support the crossbow either. You can't have it both ways. I find it insulting and rediculous that Ohio does not take the time to differentiate between weapons used by hunters( longbow, compound or crossbow) and it impacts on our herd.


----------



## progers

Fact: 30 years ago Arkansas introduced the xbow as a means of hunting wildlife to ALL individuals. No other states recogonized the xbow as a usable weapon in any hunting season.

Fact: Now, all states recogonize the crossbow as a legal, ethical weapon to harvest game with. Half being open to deer season, with some exception to archery season, to ALL hunters.

Fact: Since the introduction of the xbow to the world of hunting, no States had to withdraw the use of the xbow for any reason. They have only changed regulations to enhance the use of the xbow for more individuals. 

Fact: The xbow will bring more support created in numbers of individual hunters. Crossbows have proven to be a good recruitment tool for bringing youth and women into hunting. They are good for retaining older hunters longer too. 

Fact: A crossbow IS ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!

Fact: Crossbow hunting opportunity has proven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations.

Fact: Through license fees, retail sales-- crossbows and accessories and all other sister products needed (tree stands, camo clothing, scents etc.) and hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred, this increased hunting opportunity offers positive financial impact for the state.

Fact: Compound ballistics and Crossbow ballistics are almost identical. With both having advantages over the other in some ways.


----------



## Marvin

"YES, the current law infringes upon the rights of many idividuals who wish to expand their opportunities as a sportsman."

I asked yo to expand on this issue. what are you talking about here?


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Fact: 30 years ago Arkansas introduced the xbow as a means of hunting wildlife to ALL individuals. No other states recogonized the xbow as a usable weapon in any hunting season.
> 
> Fact: Now, all states recogonize the crossbow as a legal, ethical weapon to harvest game with. Half being open to deer season, with some exception to archery season, to ALL hunters.
> 
> Fact: Since the introduction of the xbow to the world of hunting, no States had to withdraw the use of the xbow for any reason. They have only changed regulations to enhance the use of the xbow for more individuals.
> 
> Fact: The xbow will bring more support created in numbers of individual hunters. Crossbows have proven to be a good recruitment tool for bringing youth and women into hunting. They are good for retaining older hunters longer too.
> 
> Fact: A crossbow IS ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!
> 
> Fact: Crossbow hunting opportunity has proven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations.
> 
> Fact: Through license fees, retail sales-- crossbows and accessories and all other sister products needed (tree stands, camo clothing, scents etc.) and hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred, this increased hunting opportunity offers positive financial impact for the state.
> 
> Fact: Compound ballistics and Crossbow ballistics are almost identical. With both having advantages over the other in some ways.



are you debating or grandstanding? 


Fact: Crossbow hunting opportunity has proven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations.

Are you actually serious about this one? as opposed to what? bowhunting?


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> I can't understand your first two questions.
> 
> Yes, there is a law in LA that states only seniors and/or handicap can use the xbow in deer season. You can't even rabbit hunt with a xbow here.
> 
> My goal in introducing this change is a positive one for all parties involved. It seems the reasons of the minority that oppose it do so with "greedy" intentions and prejudice to all hunters.


Not exactly true. "...the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge, as well as in the special deer hunting season provided in R.S. 56:116."
So, crossbows are only restricted to the handicapped and elderly during the bow only season. Additionally, I do not believe the taking of rabbits or other small game is even addressed by our laws. 

Here is my gripe in short form. I hunt public land. I choose to not hunt when gun season is in effect. That leaves me and others in my position with bow only opportunities only before and after gun season, which is quite liberal here. Even the refuges and WMA's are increasing their gun seasons. Allowing crossbows WILL bring many hunters into the woods that already hunt the gun season. Call it selfish all you want. I don't give a rat's. I personally know not one single bow hunter who will use a crossbow in archery only season if allowed, but I know several gun only(currently) who will hunt the bow only and gun seasons if crossbows are allowed. It's more about crowding than any other issue for me. As soon as I get my own piece of land, it will go on D-Map, and I won't care anymore. Till then, I am against the use of crossbows during the bow only seasons.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> STAND BACK JIM...I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU HERE.....BUT that also means there is no empirical data to support the crossbow either. You can't have it both ways. I find it insulting and rediculous that Ohio does not take the time to differentiate between weapons used by hunters( longbow, compound or crossbow) and it impacts on our herd.



actually marvin that concession really dooms your side. You see, there are plenty of empirical reasons to support xbows including tax and license revenues but more importantly, this is a free society where the PRESUMPTION underlying our society is that people should be free to do what they want unless that activity can objectively be shown to cause harm (I realize that some restrictive laws are hard to justify though)

Given that there are people who want to hunt with a crossbow in archery season (a factual assertion no one can dispute) the burden is on people like you to prove that their desire is harmful to society or the natural resources and since you have admitted there is no objective argument on your side, you will lose.

BTW there is no argument in favor of a bow season that is any stronger than allowing xbows in either


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Not exactly true. "...the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge, as well as in the special deer hunting season provided in R.S. 56:116."
> So, crossbows are only restricted to the handicapped and elderly during the bow only season. Additionally, I do not believe the taking of rabbits or other small game is even addressed by our laws.
> 
> Here is my gripe in short form. I hunt public land. I choose to not hunt when gun season is in effect. That leaves me and others in my position with bow only opportunities only before and after gun season, which is quite liberal here. Even the refuges and WMA's are increasing their gun seasons. Allowing crossbows WILL bring many hunters into the woods that already hunt the gun season. Call it selfish all you want. I don't give a rat's. I personally know not one single bow hunter who will use a crossbow in archery only season if allowed, but I know several gun only(currently) who will hunt the bow only and gun seasons if crossbows are allowed. It's more about crowding than any other issue for me. As soon as I get my own piece of land, it will go on D-Map, and I won't care anymore. Till then, I am against the use of crossbows during the bow only seasons.


what you are really saying is you want to increase time costs on bowhunters to limit the numbers. You really are against more people being able to bowhunt but you camoflauge that by opposing crossbows. IF I were to market a compound bow that made compound bow hunting more popular you would have to oppose that too since that would have the same exact effect as crossbows-more people in "your season"

the anti gun hunter attitude sucks IMHO given that most compound hunters were/are still gun hunters.

shooting the bow-no matter what kind it is, is only a small part of the skills needed to bowhunt effectively


----------



## Jim C

DougK said:


> why would they? the herd is thriving!



My feelings too. However, there is no way to really police that or what is to be done with people like me who hunt with all kinds of bows? perhaps Marvin thinks we should have archery apartheid where you have to buy a permit or stamp for each kind of bow? or I think more likely-the goal is an attempt to dispute the claim that the predicted harvest rate of each bow is essentially the same. One of the main tactics of the excluders is an attempt to justify what is essentially a selfish argument by claiming Xbows are unfair. Right now, there is no empirical evidence justifying that claim-a claim that is more politically palatable to make than the "I don't want more people in my woods" garbage. Marvin, IMHO, is hoping for some data that he and his allies can use to say that xbows have a higher rate of harvest meaning they should not "compete" against compounds


----------



## Duke12

progers said:


> Fact: The xbow will bring more support created in numbers of individual hunters. Crossbows have proven to be a good recruitment tool for bringing youth and women into hunting. They are good for retaining older hunters longer too.
> 
> 
> Fact: Crossbow hunting opportunity has pr oven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations.
> 
> Fact: Through license fees, retail sales-- crossbows and accessories and all other sister products needed (tree stands, Cami clothing, scents etc.) and hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred, this increased hunting opportunity offers positive financial impact for the state.


These are only Opinion's based on speculation. No written documentation.
If I have two fish in a bowl and I buy and new bowl and place one of those fish in the new bowl I still have only two fish


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Not exactly true. "...the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge, as well as in the special deer hunting season provided in R.S. 56:116."
> So, crossbows are only restricted to the handicapped and elderly during the bow only season. Additionally, I do not believe the taking of rabbits or other small game is even addressed by our laws.
> 
> Here is my gripe in short form. I hunt public land. I choose to not hunt when gun season is in effect. That leaves me and others in my position with bow only opportunities only before and after gun season, which is quite liberal here. Even the refuges and WMA's are increasing their gun seasons. Allowing crossbows WILL bring many hunters into the woods that already hunt the gun season. Call it selfish all you want. I don't give a rat's. I personally know not one single bow hunter who will use a crossbow in archery only season if allowed, but I know several gun only(currently) who will hunt the bow only and gun seasons if crossbows are allowed. It's more about crowding than any other issue for me. As soon as I get my own piece of land, it will go on D-Map, and I won't care anymore. Till then, I am against the use of crossbows during the bow only seasons.


At least we have an agreement that it should be legal in gun season from you. 

I can say that I know bowhunters who will use crossbows. They will use both and still have the challange of taking game.


----------



## progers

Duke12 said:


> progers said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fact: The xbow will bring more support created in numbers of individual hunters. Crossbows have proven to be a good recruitment tool for bringing youth and women into hunting. They are good for retaining older hunters longer too.
> 
> 
> Fact: Crossbow hunting opportunity has pr oven to serve management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations.
> 
> Fact: Through license fees, retail sales-- crossbows and accessories and all other sister products needed (tree stands, Cami clothing, scents etc.) and hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred, this increased hunting opportunity offers positive financial impact for the state.
> 
> 
> progers said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I have two fish in a bowl and I buy and new bowl and place one of those fish in the new bowl I still have only two fish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but, both fish are alive and doing well living with one another, just as the crossbow and compound hunters should.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> what you are really saying is you want to increase time costs on bowhunters to limit the numbers. You really are against more people being able to bowhunt but you camoflauge that by opposing crossbows. IF I were to market a compound bow that made compound bow hunting more popular you would have to oppose that too since that would have the same exact effect as crossbows-more people in "your season"
> 
> the anti gun hunter attitude sucks IMHO given that most compound hunters were/are still gun hunters.
> 
> shooting the bow-no matter what kind it is, is only a small part of the skills needed to bowhunt effectively


Nope. You'll never see me advocate less gun days. I'm not anti-gun. I just choose not to use one, and I do not like bowhunting when gun season is on. I'm fine with the public seasons. OTOH, in the vast majority of places here, the rut coincides with a gun season, not a bow season. And I think your assumption re: compound hunters being gun hunters is not true in La., and this is a La. only debate.


----------



## doctariAFC

Jim C said:


> My feelings too. However, there is no way to really police that or what is to be done with people like me who hunt with all kinds of bows? perhaps Marvin thinks we should have archery apartheid where you have to buy a permit or stamp for each kind of bow? or I think more likely-the goal is an attempt to dispute the claim that the predicted harvest rate of each bow is essentially the same. One of the main tactics of the excluders is an attempt to justify what is essentially a selfish argument by claiming Xbows are unfair. Right now, there is no empirical evidence justifying that claim-a claim that is more politically palatable to make than the "I don't want more people in my woods" garbage. Marvin, IMHO, is hoping for some data that he and his allies can use to say that xbows have a higher rate of harvest meaning they should not "compete" against compounds


Rate of harvest information tells only half the story. The other half is rate of herd growth or shrink. SInce most areas are experiencing herd expansion, not contraction, the claim that "damage is being done by using crossbows" is not the best of positions to take. IN NY, every single proposed change, from opening up more lands beyond Adirondacks, to opening special seasons, to allowing more modern equipment and ammunition (round balls, conicals, sabots, etc.) have ALL met, universally, with the same "you will decimate the deer herds" claim. And, universally, this claim has proven completely false, 100% of the cases it was used in.

Also, JimC, please do not call out Marvin, or single him out. Let's keep the debate with facts, and use the professionalism that Legislative Debates command. We all as hunters and archers and sportsmen and women certainly can demonstrate a far higher degree of professionalism and courtesy than the party politicos currently setting the bad examples in DC and in State Houses across the Nation.

Thanks......


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Nope. You'll never see me advocate less gun days. I'm not anti-gun. I just choose not to use one, and I do not like bowhunting when gun season is on. I'm fine with the public seasons. OTOH, in the vast majority of places here, the rut coincides with a gun season, not a bow season. And I think your assumption re: compound hunters being gun hunters is not true in La., and this is a La. only debate.



You say you are not "anti-gun" but, what are you saying you are an "anti" to as far as it concerns other hunters? I'm curious to know?

This is a LA debate but, what we do here effects ALL our hunting brothers in the U.S. We have deemed that relevent. All are welcome.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Nope. You'll never see me advocate less gun days. I'm not anti-gun. I just choose not to use one, and I do not like bowhunting when gun season is on. I'm fine with the public seasons. OTOH, in the vast majority of places here, the rut coincides with a gun season, not a bow season. And I think your assumption re: compound hunters being gun hunters is not true in La., and this is a La. only debate.



lets assume your argument is sound-that most compound hunters in LA are people who started hunting with compounds not guns. SO What? they all are citizens and tax payers. Crossbows and compounds are essentially the same-and shooting the bow is only a small part of the skills needed to bowhunt well. If some guy can buy a crossbow and suddenly start taking game obviously that means one of two things

1) he is a skilled hunter OR
2) bowhunting really isn't very tough in your state

the day compound bows were allowed in bow season wiped away the arguments against crossbows


----------



## progers

*Georgia embraces xbow...*

2003-2004 GEORGIA CROSSBOW REPORT 

Nick Nicholson, Senior Wildlife Biologist GA Department of Natural Resources 

The number of archery deer hunters and archery deer harvest increased significantly by 11.6% and 44.3%, respectively (Table 1). The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year crossbows have been legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia. Previously, only hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows. Increased interest in the impact crossbow legalization has on hunter participation, urban deer management, and deer harvest prompted us to further investigate crossbow hunters and hunting. Table 2 compares licensed, resident crossbow hunter numbers and harvest for 2003-2004 to that of other bow types. The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest increased by 55.3% and 168.0%, respectively, over 2002-2003. To put these numbers in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters. Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of total harvest. 

Within our sample, 13.5% of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system. Additionally, 31.1% of crossbow hunters indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. To estimate the impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we made several assumptions. First, new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve bows to crossbows. The success rate for crossbows (0.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (0.51 deer/hunter). Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds. It is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow. Even if they did, the traditional archer success rate (0.46 deer/hunter) is only slightly lower than that of crossbow hunters. There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters during 2003-2004. Our estimates indicate about 9,300 additional archers. A large part of this increase can be attributed to the estimated 6,900 crossbow hunters who indicated they were new to archery hunting. Additionally, age structure data show a tendency for older archers to use crossbows (Figures 1 - 3). Some of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by crossbow legalization. If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the 0.49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive, then about 4,550 additional deer would be attributed to these new archery (crossbow) hunters. It is more likely that the number of additional deer is less than this. The 95% confidence interval for the total statewide harvest (any method) is + 7,818 deer. These data and assumptions suggest that any additional deer harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level. 

Age structures of 2003-04 crossbow hunters and compound/recurve hunters are shown in Figures 1 and 2, respectively. Older archers are more likely to report hunting with a crossbow (Figure 3). Archers over 50 years old were significantly more likely to report using a crossbow than archers under 50 years old (Prob. = 0.001). There was no significant difference between age classes for crossbow use among hunters new to archery. However, small sample sizes within age classes of new archers limited our ability to measure selectivity for crossbows by age class. Almost half (46.4%) of the new archers using crossbows in our sample (N=56) were over 50 years old. Among all hunters, 34.6% are over 50 years old. The legalization of crossbows brought about 7,000 new archers into the field this past hunting season. This group of hunters and their harvest fall within the bounds of statewide confidence intervals and do not add significantly to statewide estimates of total deer hunters and deer harvest. However, it appears that they did contribute significantly to archery hunter numbers and harvest. 

The debate among hunters about legalization of crossbows is reminiscent of a similar debate on the 1977-78 legalization of compound bows. The technological leap from recurve bows to compound bows was much greater than the current move to crossbows. (Crossbows actually are more “primitive” than compound bows, having been around since the fourth century BC.) Crossbows provide the opportunity for older archers to participate in archery deer hunting longer. They also introduce additional hunters into the sport of archery. It is likely that many of them will seek increased archery hunting challenges and change to compound or recurve bows. Recruiting new archers and retaining older ones is a positive event for all hunters.


----------



## progers

Jim C said:


> lets assume your argument is sound-that most compound hunters in LA are people who started hunting with compounds not guns. SO What? they all are citizens and tax payers. Crossbows and compounds are essentially the same-and shooting the bow is only a small part of the skills needed to bowhunt well. If some guy can buy a crossbow and suddenly start taking game obviously that means one of two things
> 
> 1) he is a skilled hunter OR
> 2) bowhunting really isn't very tough in your state
> 
> the day compound bows were allowed in bow season wiped away the arguments against crossbows



I agree.

I would tend to think that most hunters in LA started with guns,also. Even if it was a BB gun. Bowhunters start with compounds because they bypass the longbow and recurve. The xbow is not allowed YET so, one can not compare it to the archery equipment used in training young ones.


I would say yes to 1 and 2. You have to have the skill of a hunter and with the number of deer here in LA, YES, it makes it easy to harvest a deer, with any weapon that is state regulated. Not saying trophy but, a deer none the less.


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## BigBirdVA

Xbows became legal for all in VA last year. At first I was 100% against them. Then I bought and used one. It's no free ride to a guaranteed deer. You still need to possess all the archery skills or you're going home empty.

Then I asked and posted on other forums did anyone see xbow in use this past year? Or did anyone have any negative experience related to an xbow? No replies on the negative and very few public land hunters were seen using an xbow. The club I'm in took 1 doe more than last year and this was an xbow user. Wow a whole doe from 30 people on 4,000 acres of land. All said and done the deer count for the state is down this year. So where are all those deer the xbow was supposed to allow to be taken? In the end like the pro-xbow people said it doesn't make enough of a difference to matter to anyone. Unless you're taking a small/weak child hunting or aren't disabled enough to get a permit (as it was in the past). Then it might matter.

The bottom line is it's nothing more than a method to keep others out of "their season".


----------



## Marvin

DougK said:


> why would they? the herd is thriving!


Why yes it is Doug. thanks for pointing it out.....Hunter numbers are still decreasing too. see the resemblance? We have had the crossbow for 30 years and were still losing. 60 k in a ten year period.


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Why yes it is Doug. thanks for pointing it out.....Hunter numbers are still decreasing too. see the resemblance? We have had the crossbow for 30 years and were still losing. 60 k in a ten year period.



we could guess then

1) we could guess that if xbows were not allowed-we would lose

a) more hunters

b) less hunters

I believe a is the answer since I personally know of at least a dozen former compound archers who due to age, now use crossbows. Two of them are Ann Hoyt and Ann Clark-two of the greatest recurve target archers in known history


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## progers

Marvin said:


> Why yes it is Doug. thanks for pointing it out.....Hunter numbers are still decreasing too. see the resemblance? We have had the crossbow for 30 years and were still losing. 60 k in a ten year period.




WE have NOT had crossbows. LA has restricted to the use of handicap and/or seniors.

There were 1000 xbow users in LA this past year. 

And one could "assume" that since they were handicap and/or senior citizens, they did not hunt as the younger more healither groups.



Deer peopulation is increasing more rapidly than hunter decline. Those numbers have already been compsenated for in DMAP tags and rapidly increasing doe days for most areas.


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## PMantle

How someone starts hunting is completely irrelevant to any issue in this thread. I started out gun hunting. I hunted during the gun season like all other law abiding hunters. I switched. Everyone has their choice here. They can hunt every single day of the season by choosing a bow during bow season, or a crossbow, rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader during the LIBERAL firearms season. 

So, as it stands now, crossbow users(not limited to injured or elderly) have, in area 2 just as an example, from October 22 to January 15th to hunt deer with their weapon of choice. Yay! All hunters are winners in Louisiana!


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Everyone has their choice here. They can hunt every single day of the season by choosing a bow during bow season, or a crossbow, rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader during the LIBERAL firearms season.
> 
> So, as it stands now, crossbow users(not limited to injured or elderly) have, in area 2 just as an example, from October 22 to January 15th to hunt deer with their weapon of choice. Yay! All hunters are winners in Louisiana!



I'm confused? Are you saying that the law in LA states that ANY person can use a crossbow in MZ and gun season? Is that what was meant? 


A crossbow is a bow. It propells an arrow with a string, by means of force of retracted limbs. It is even released with a triggering mechanism, as the compound is. It is launched from a platform, as a compound does.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> How someone starts hunting is completely irrelevant to any issue in this thread. I started out gun hunting. I hunted during the gun season like all other law abiding hunters. I switched. Everyone has their choice here. They can hunt every single day of the season by choosing a bow during bow season, or a crossbow, rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader during the LIBERAL firearms season.
> 
> So, as it stands now, crossbow users(not limited to injured or elderly) have, in area 2 just as an example, from October 22 to January 15th to hunt deer with their weapon of choice. Yay! All hunters are winners in Louisiana!


Except for the kid who wants to hunt during archery that cannot draw a minimum weight bow. Except for the 50 year old archery hunter who is not old enough or not disabled enough by someone else's definition of disability to draw a bow and take their kid out hunting to introduce them to bowhunting. Except for the taxpayers and license buyers who see part of their spend go towards paying government employees to administer and verify applications and doctors notes and the like from people applying for a permit, when this permit system and the money that will be SAVED was replaced with a free choice between vertical or horizontal.

Fear can be a powerful motivator. Fear of the unknown, fear someone may get a perceived advantage over you, fear that the woods will suddnely fill up during archery season.

Have you examined the participation numbers in states that have recently added crossbows? If you have, you will find that overcrowding of woods due to crossbow inclusion has NOT happened. 

And how someone starts hunting, although irrelavent to the thread, is relavent to our sport. Not enough people starting hunting.... The crossbow does allow for an additional option, and this option has proven to be one that does draw in newbies to the sport of hunting, something that we, as hunters, need so desperately.

SO, again, I am not trying to deflate your own personal feelings. You are entitled to feel how you feel. However, this debate is not about how you feel, it is whether this will benefit HUNTERS and GAME. Please present FACTS as to how this move will act in a negative manner to HUNTERS (not just bowhunters) and GAME, not conjecture, please.

I am interested in seeing this factual information, as I have heard from those against bowhunting, like New York Bowhunters, for instance, all this same old rhetoric. I have never ONCE seen and facts to back up these assertions. Feeling ain't got nothing to do with it...


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Except for the kid who wants to hunt during archery that cannot draw a minimum weight bow. Except for the 50 year old archery hunter who is not old enough or not disabled enough by someone else's definition of disability to draw a bow and take their kid out hunting to introduce them to bowhunting. Except for the taxpayers and license buyers who see part of their spend go towards paying government employees to administer and verify applications and doctors notes and the like from people applying for a permit, when this permit system and the money that will be SAVED was replaced with a free choice between vertical or horizontal.
> 
> Fear can be a powerful motivator. Fear of the unknown, fear someone may get a perceived advantage over you, fear that the woods will suddnely fill up during archery season.
> 
> Have you examined the participation numbers in states that have recently added crossbows? If you have, you will find that overcrowding of woods due to crossbow inclusion has NOT happened.
> 
> And how someone starts hunting, although irrelavent to the thread, is relavent to our sport. Not enough people starting hunting.... The crossbow does allow for an additional option, and this option has proven to be one that does draw in newbies to the sport of hunting, something that we, as hunters, need so desperately.
> 
> SO, again, I am not trying to deflate your own personal feelings. You are entitled to feel how you feel. However, this debate is not about how you feel, it is whether this will benefit HUNTERS and GAME. Please present FACTS as to how this move will act in a negative manner to HUNTERS (not just bowhunters) and GAME, not conjecture, please.
> 
> I am interested in seeing this factual information, as I have heard from those against bowhunting, like New York Bowhunters, for instance, all this same old rhetoric. I have never ONCE seen and facts to back up these assertions. Feeling ain't got nothing to do with it...


I don't find any of the above to be pursuasive at all. The kid and the 50 year old? If neither can draw a bow, I have no sympethy for them whatso ever. The kid can gun hunt with dad all he wants until such time as he can draw the bow. The 50 year old(whom I /m not sure any real examples even exist) has to have some sort of condition to not draw 35 lbs. Doctor's excuses here are easy. I know an ortho who has written some. 

As far as emotion vs. fact, I don't really get where you are coming from on me. I've given you facts. You are starting to act like Jim C here instead of having a true debate. You are on one side of this deal, and you act like you don't want to hear anything at all from the other.


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> I'm confused? Are you saying that the law in LA states that ANY person can use a crossbow in MZ and gun season? Is that what was meant?
> 
> 
> A crossbow is a bow. It propells an arrow with a string, by means of force of retracted limbs. It is even released with a triggering mechanism, as the compound is. It is launched from a platform, as a compound does.


Yes, that's what I'm saying.

As far as calling a crossbow a bow, that's fine. Go tell the muzzleloader guys their weapons are rifles and that they should get ever day that the centerfire guys get. What would it matter?


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Yes, that's what I'm saying.
> 
> As far as calling a crossbow a bow, that's fine. Go tell the muzzleloader guys their weapons are rifles and that they should get ever day that the centerfire guys get. What would it matter?




Not debating MZL's. Were're debating xbows.


Xbow seasons and regulations for ALL states, since you were misinformed about LA laws on xbow regulations: http://www.barnettcrossbows.com/crossbowregulations.htm

LOUISANA
Crossbows are legal for handicapped hunters by permit and for hunters age 60 and older. www.wlf.state.la.us


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> Not debating MZL's. Were're debating xbows.
> 
> 
> Xbow seasons and regulations for ALL states, since you were misinformed about LA laws on xbow regulations: http://www.barnettcrossbows.com/crossbowregulations.htm
> 
> LOUISANA
> Crossbows are legal for handicapped hunters by permit and for hunters age 60 and older. www.wlf.state.la.us


Sorry, but you're wrong. The handicapped and over 60 deal is ONLY during the bow only season. I already quoted directly from the statute. Crossbows are allowed for anyone during the rifle season.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> I don't find any of the above to be pursuasive at all. The kid and the 50 year old? If neither can draw a bow, I have no sympethy for them whatso ever. The kid can gun hunt with dad all he wants until such time as he can draw the bow. The 50 year old(whom I /m not sure any real examples even exist) has to have some sort of condition to not draw 35 lbs. Doctor's excuses here are easy. I know an ortho who has written some.
> 
> As far as emotion vs. fact, I don't really get where you are coming from on me. I've given you facts. You are starting to act like Jim C here instead of having a true debate. You are on one side of this deal, and you act like you don't want to hear anything at all from the other.



LOL thanks for confirming every point I have ever made about what motivates the anti xbow crowd. People can't hunt unless they meet the "manliness" test of the excluders. God help us if we allow kids to hunt

Emotion is all that side has

I am still waiting for one of them to tell me why their definition of bowhunting should control what someone else CHOOSES to use in a RECREATIONAL activity. 

there is no debate when one side has no objective facts on their side-a concession that has already been made


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> I don't find any of the above to be pursuasive at all. The kid and the 50 year old? If neither can draw a bow, I have no sympethy for them whatso ever. The kid can gun hunt with dad all he wants until such time as he can draw the bow. The 50 year old(whom I /m not sure any real examples even exist) has to have some sort of condition to not draw 35 lbs. Doctor's excuses here are easy. I know an ortho who has written some.
> 
> As far as emotion vs. fact, I don't really get where you are coming from on me. I've given you facts. You are starting to act like Jim C here instead of having a true debate. You are on one side of this deal, and you act like you don't want to hear anything at all from the other.


So, exactly what age range do you fall into? Ever hear of an affliction called arthritis? WOuld you like to get on the bat line concerning bowhunters who did a lot of bowhunting and now cannot due to physical deterioration, and were forced to give up archery hunting, some giving up hunting altogether, because they could no longer hold a vertical bow or draw a vertical bow? I asked this question because I RECEIVE EMAILS like what I have described in many, many numbers. This conditions does exist. In fact, my hunting partner who owns 200 acres of prime lands in S. Tier of NY has big issues with his shoulder. He is nearly 50. It is becoming increasingly difficult for him to draw his bow. He hunts with a compound and a recurve, depending on his mood. When he can no longer draw and hold the bow to shoot accurately, he is SOL. Even on his own property. To say you do not know anyone like this means either you do not talk to too many hunters, or simply live in an insulated capsule or something. Talk to hunters. As many different hunters as you can. Then, try putting the shoe honestly on the other foot. Would you give up archery hunting if you could not draw a bow? WOuld you be happy about it? Do you wish to go through the application process rather than buying the license and then engage in all that comes along with hunting? What happens when you get turned down because you're "not disabled enough?"

I am certain that you may find the crossbow a wee bit less threatening when these conditions befall you. I take feedback from many, many hunters, anglers, etc.

Again, I have yet to see any facts surrounding the negative affects crossbows would have. WHat I have seen are emotion-based, recycled arguments that hold zero water, then the inevitable dig the heels in, will not work together (on both sides) malarky that factionized sportsmen and women are some well known for. Please bring facts. Back them up with references and sources. Folks who make "statement of facts" without presenting the proof are simply telling me a story and its a "fact" because they say so? 

Back up your objections with facts, please. I am demanding this from everyone on this debate. Keep the emotions out of it.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> LOL thanks for confirming every point I have ever made about what motivates the anti xbow crowd. People can't hunt unless they meet the "manliness" test of the excluders. God help us if we allow kids to hunt
> 
> Emotion is all that side has
> 
> I am still waiting for one of them to tell me why their definition of bowhunting should control what someone else CHOOSES to use in a RECREATIONAL activity.
> 
> there is no debate when one side has no objective facts on their side-a concession that has already been made


Nice try. No points made whatsoever. You talk about choice all the time. The present statutes are in place because someone somewhere made a choice. That choice may change. If it does, it will be through the legislative process, not through conclusory non-arguments like yours. All citizens of this State will have the same opportunity to have their voice heard by their representatives and/or senators. 

Oh, BTW, since the BSBA was basically the reason we even have a bow only season, their opposition to the crossbow may make their continued fight for bow seasons a little less aggressive. Pure speculation, but the slap in the face would be hard to take.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC,

Re: your last post, the guy with arthritis is going to get a permit for a crossbow. He's a non-issue. Hell, I'll even carry his stand to the tree if it's on my way in the woods. Them thare are facts. :wink:


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Nice try. No points made whatsoever. You talk about choice all the time. The present statutes are in place because someone somewhere made a choice. That choice may change. If it does, it will be through the legislative process, not through conclusory non-arguments like yours. All citizens of this State will have the same opportunity to have their voice heard by their representatives and/or senators.
> 
> Oh, BTW, since the BSBA was basically the reason we even have a bow only season, their opposition to the crossbow may make their continued fight for bow seasons a little less aggressive. Pure speculation, but the slap in the face would be hard to take.


I seem to recall someone making a choice in the 1950's to start archery seasons (give or take a few years) and this season was limited to recurves and long bows. Then the new compound bow was intorduced, and in order to allow this choice the laws in many states neeeded to be redefined. What a holy can of worms this opened up!!! Do you hunt with a compound bow? Thank the folks who made a choice one day, then made another choice to allow more options to hunters, to the benefit of game. Back up your arguments with sources, facts, etc. Please.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Sorry, but you're wrong. The handicapped and over 60 deal is ONLY during the bow only season. I already quoted directly from the statute. Crossbows are allowed for anyone during the rifle season.



No, I'm not wrong. Crossbows in LA are limited to the use by handicap and over 60. Over 60, you don't have to buy an ARCHERY liscense. I'm thru with this argument. Back to the REASONS for and against.



J) ARCHERY SEGMENT: Still hunting only Oct. 1-Jan. 31 in all deer hunting areas, EXCEPT Areas 3 and 8, where the season will be Sept. 17-Jan. 15, 2005 Sept. 16-Jan. 15, 2006 and Sept. 15-Jan. 15, 2007, and Area 6 where the season shall be Oct. 1-15 for bucks only and Oct. 16-Feb. 15 for either-sex. WMA seasons are the same as outside except as noted below. An archery license is required for resident bow hunters between the ages of 16 and 59 inclusive and non-residents 16 years of age and older. Residents 60 years of age and older may use a crossbow without a special permit or license. Either-sex deer may be taken in all areas open for deer hunting EXCEPT when a bucks only season is in progress for gun hunting and EXCEPT in Area 6 from Oct. 1-15. In such cases, archers must conform to the bucks only regulations. Either-sex deer may be taken on WMAs at anytime during archery season EXCEPT when bucks only seasons are in progress on the respective WMA. Also, archery season restricted on Atchafalaya Delta, Salvador, Lake Boeuf and Pointe-aux-Chenes WMAs. (SEE WMA for details).

http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netgear/index.asp?cn=lawlf&pid=447


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> doctariAFC,
> 
> Re: your last post, the guy with arthritis is going to get a permit for a crossbow. He's a non-issue. Hell, I'll even carry his stand to the tree if it's on my way in the woods. Them thare are facts. :wink:


Well that is certainly a better stance than in NYS. You have to be paralyzed or have no limbs, etc., to get a crossbow permit. Even then, its debatable. My second cousin, who received a permit to hunt off the back of his ATV, due to MS, could not get a crossbow permit. Wasn't dibiliated enough.

I'll take a peak at the LA conservation laws this eveing, and then ask some serious and thought provoking questions in a day or two.


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> No, I'm not wrong. Crossbows in LA are limited to the use by handicap and over 60. Over 60, you don't have to buy an ARCHERY liscense. I'm thru with this argument. Back to the REASONS for and against.
> 
> 
> 
> J) ARCHERY SEGMENT: Still hunting only Oct. 1-Jan. 31 in all deer hunting areas, EXCEPT Areas 3 and 8, where the season will be Sept. 17-Jan. 15, 2005 Sept. 16-Jan. 15, 2006 and Sept. 15-Jan. 15, 2007, and Area 6 where the season shall be Oct. 1-15 for bucks only and Oct. 16-Feb. 15 for either-sex. WMA seasons are the same as outside except as noted below. An archery license is required for resident bow hunters between the ages of 16 and 59 inclusive and non-residents 16 years of age and older. Residents 60 years of age and older may use a crossbow without a special permit or license. Either-sex deer may be taken in all areas open for deer hunting EXCEPT when a bucks only season is in progress for gun hunting and EXCEPT in Area 6 from Oct. 1-15. In such cases, archers must conform to the bucks only regulations. Either-sex deer may be taken on WMAs at anytime during archery season EXCEPT when bucks only seasons are in progress on the respective WMA. Also, archery season restricted on Atchafalaya Delta, Salvador, Lake Boeuf and Pointe-aux-Chenes WMAs. (SEE WMA for details).
> 
> http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netgear/index.asp?cn=lawlf&pid=447


I'll try one more time. The statute reads: "...the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge, as well as in the special deer hunting season provided in R.S. 56:116."

Stop quoting from the archery only segment. Any hunter can use a crossbow during the ENTIRE gun season. Crossbows are ONLY limited to the handicapped and people over 60 during the early and late archery seasons.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> doctariAFC,
> 
> Re: your last post, the guy with arthritis is going to get a permit for a crossbow. He's a non-issue. Hell, I'll even carry his stand to the tree if it's on my way in the woods. Them thare are facts. :wink:



All hunters are an issue when it comes to their rights. 

If the "ol' timer" ain't an issue, does that mean you aren't worring about him hunting much and you can hunt his deer or do you just not care about our senior hunters?


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> All hunters are an issue when it comes to their rights.
> 
> If the "ol' timer" ain't an issue, does that mean you aren't worring about him hunting much and you can hunt his deer or do you just not care about our senior hunters?



I care that as we age, we are less and less able to draw a bow. I care that he is able to participate in the archery season. More likely than not, at that age, the guy was a traditional or compound shooter who no longer can draw. I am for him being able to hunt as long as he is not a danger to himself or other hunters.


----------



## progers

Pistol in La. said:


> My name is Pistol Young.
> I'm the Youth Director for the Bayou State Bowhunters Association. The BSBA's stance on this issue is that it is already legal to hunt with a crossbow in this state if you're over 60 and if your diabled or handicapped. We stand behind the current standards for using this weapon. We are against it being used by all hunters and also during the rifle, primitive and or archery seasons.



There you go. Couldn't have said it any clearer even if I was the Youth Director for the Bayou State Bowhunters Association. He KNOWS the current crossbow laws in LA.


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> All hunters are an issue when it comes to their rights.
> 
> If the "ol' timer" ain't an issue, does that mean you aren't worring about him hunting much and you can hunt his deer or do you just not care about our senior hunters?


This is one of the most profound statements I have ever read. All hunters are the issue. Hunting Rights are the issues, not segregation of hunters. Seasons for specialized implements deliver a benefit to hunters who choose to hunt these seasons. As time has gone by, each specialized season has had more choices added. ALL specialized seasons. In terms of crossbow and archery seasons, this additional choice is yet another example of this happening throughout the history of hunting seasons. It benefits all HUNTERS to have the opportunity at expanding your choice. You can always choose not to use something. But when we tell others what they cannot choose, unless for solid reasons (which we are all still waiting to see), we are only serving a few hunters, rather than ALL hunters. 

:yo: to progers.... post of the day!


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> There you go. Couldn't have said it any clearer even if I was the Youth Director for the Bayou State Bowhunters Association. He KNOWS the current crossbow laws in LA.



Are you actually still ignoring the plain language of the statute? or is it that the legal use of a crossbow by ANYONE during the gun season does not fit your agenda?


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Are you actually still ignoring the plain language of the statute? or is it that the legal use of a crossbow by ANYONE during the gun season does not fit your agenda?


could you actually answer why it objectively hurts you that the guy next door down is using a crossbow in archery season rather than a compound?


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> could you actually answer why it objectively hurts you that the guy next door down is using a crossbow in archery season rather than a compound?


Sure. If he is forced to use a compound, he won't be there. If he could or wanted to use a compound, he would already be there.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Sure. If he is forced to use a compound, he won't be there. If he could or wanted to use a compound, he would already be there.



the same argument was used against compounds 30 years ago and do you think that the failure of that argument then was good or bad. If we had not allowed compounds, most of you all wouldn't be bowhunting either. ONly full time year round archers like me would be hunting. Frankly, as a long time recurve archer I believe, as many long time recurve archers do-that the sport of ARCHERY ( as opposed to bowhunting) was negatively impacted by the introduction of the compound bow but that is another story. In recreational activities, I can't fathom how one person should tell another what sort of bow they should use

I also note that your answer did not include an objective argument as to how you are hurt by the crossbow use. How would you be hurt by me using a crossbow given I can shoot a compound better than most of the bowhunters around? In fact many crossbow hunters I know are pretty good compound shooters as well


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> This is one of the most profound statements I have ever read. All hunters are the issue. Hunting Rights are the issues, not segregation of hunters. Seasons for specialized implements deliver a benefit to hunters who choose to hunt these seasons. As time has gone by, each specialized season has had more choices added. ALL specialized seasons. In terms of crossbow and archery seasons, this additional choice is yet another example of this happening throughout the history of hunting seasons. It benefits all HUNTERS to have the opportunity at expanding your choice. You can always choose not to use something. But when we tell others what they cannot choose, unless for solid reasons (which we are all still waiting to see), we are only serving a few hunters, rather than ALL hunters.
> 
> :yo: to progers.... post of the day!



WOW! THX! :beer: 



If I have not been able to explain the way I feel on a personal basis on this issue, this guy just did a great job for me! 

He is a good xample of the "sportsman" we should all be, to everyone. It's an ethics thang, some might not understand.




My personal definition of hunting ethics: Be respectful to all wildlife and their habitat and to all of whom we encounter while in the outdoors and beyond.


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## Engelsmung

*good grief*

Heck, if we're worried about all hunters, why not let 'em use rifles during the whole season? A crossbow might be too heavy for them, and that's unfair. Why limit 4 wheelers to designated trails? It's unfair to make young or old hunters have to drag very far.

Here's the deer harvest info from 2003-2004 season, which is the last I have:
#people checked; #game killed; kill/effort

Deer(gun) 70804; 4408; 1/16
Deer(archery) 17404; 383; 1/45
Deer(muz)	12819; 697; 1/18

This is from the State WMAs, and is based on the mandatory checkin/out cards that you must possess and turn in on each hunt. An average of 45 hunts per each deer. I doubt it's that hard in Ohio. Maybe our bowhunters just suck down here.

Now that I've seen the light about how easy compound bowhunting is, I'm calling my legislator to see if we can get an Atl-atl season established. Dr. McCann was just years ahead of his time.


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## PMantle

Seasons? We don't need no stinkin' seasons! Who do those people at the legislature and DW&F think they are telling us when we can or can hunt? The nerve!


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## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Here's the deer harvest info from 2003-2004 season, which is the last I have:
> #people checked; #game killed; kill/effort
> 
> Deer(gun) 70804; 4408; 1/16
> Deer(archery) 17404; 383; 1/45
> Deer(muz)	12819; 697; 1/18
> 
> This is from the State WMAs, and is based on the mandatory checkin/out cards that you must possess and turn in on each hunt. An average of 45 hunts per each deer. I doubt it's that hard in Ohio. Maybe our bowhunters just suck down here.
> 
> Now that I've seen the light about how easy compound bowhunting is, I'm calling my legislator to see if we can get an Atl-atl season established. Dr. McCann was just years ahead of his time.



If you ask me, it seems the archery department in LA could use a little HELP!


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## Engelsmung

progers said:


> If you ask me, it seems the archery department in LA could use a little HELP!


And I'm sure you'd be glad to sell it to them.


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## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> Heck, if we're worried about all hunters, why not let 'em use rifles during the whole season? A crossbow might be too heavy for them, and that's unfair. Why limit 4 wheelers to designated trails? It's unfair to make young or old hunters have to drag very far.
> 
> Here's the deer harvest info from 2003-2004 season, which is the last I have:
> #people checked; #game killed; kill/effort
> 
> Deer(gun) 70804; 4408; 1/16
> Deer(archery) 17404; 383; 1/45
> Deer(muz)	12819; 697; 1/18
> 
> This is from the State WMAs, and is based on the mandatory checkin/out cards that you must possess and turn in on each hunt. An average of 45 hunts per each deer. I doubt it's that hard in Ohio. Maybe our bowhunters just suck down here.
> 
> Now that I've seen the light about how easy compound bowhunting is, I'm calling my legislator to see if we can get an Atl-atl season established. Dr. McCann was just years ahead of his time.


Ok. This is a decent start. Can you find participation for prior years, let's say the last 5 years? In other words, get this exact same report, except for 2002/2003, 2001/2002, etc?

I am interested in the trend analysis.


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## Engelsmung

*sorry, that's all I have*

I was going to ask for last year's, but the LaDWF website was down. I used to get the harvest reports from the NWRs that I hunt, and the few rifle/muzzleloader days always outharvested the majority of bow only days. It's getting very difficult to kill anything with a bow in the NWRs now, and they're increasing the gun days every year. I have the entire harvest info on an excel spreadsheet, if yu want it, send me a pm with your e-mail.


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## Engelsmung

*allright, here she goes:*

2002-3
Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
Deer (Gun)	69201	4046
Deer (Bow)	17766	406
Deer (Muz)	11872	537

2003-4
Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
Deer (Gun)	70804	4408
Deer (Bow)	17404	383
Deer (Muz)	12819	697

2004-5
Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
Deer (Gun)	58005	3194
Deer (Bow)	17939	558
Deer (Muz)	11387	764

How's that go? "Lies, Damn lies, and statistics...". I'm sure the argument will be, "hunter numbers down, x-bows will get more people in the woods..." Best year for bowhunters was 1/32 efforts, which is pretty pitiful. Even the poor gun hunters' best year is 1/16 efforts. Either all the hunters stink, or our deer population stinks. Based upon my days in a tree, I'd attest to the latter. La is not a state with a surplus deer problem, nor are we desperate to come up with new and improved ways to kill 'em. Just like the annual assault on truat and redfish by the commercial interests, I'm sure the folks that sell crossbows will bang on this each year.


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## cynic

Based on the data provided I'm not real sure whether to think that more deer would be harvested or that more hunters would go home empty handed. If the best number harvested by gun hunters was 1/16, How the heck is a cross bow going to be a detrament? If archers as it stands aren't able to harvest deer or see deer, Do you think a xbow will make it happen for someone else? It sounds like most are afraid that they will miss that golden opportunity because someone else is in the woods. To me this can only be greed. There are thousands of acres to be hunted the chances of crossing paths with a horizontal bowhunter is slim unless you have already been hunting with them. I hunt in a 15,000 acre WMA that is by drawing only. The only hunters I see are the ones that I group with or cking in and out. I don't really think that xbows are going to flood the woods with new hunters especially as tough as you guys are already having.
Many of the opposition seem to think that not using a vertical bow makes them lazy. I say not. That would be like those of us that reload rifle specific cartridges saying "if you are too lazy to fine tune your rifle with handloads you should not be allowed to hunt during general gun season" "if all you want is a quick fix by going down and buying factory ammo that you don't put forth the same effort and shouldn't use a gun".


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## doctariAFC

*I hate to be a "richard".... but....*



Engelsmung said:


> 2002-3
> Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
> Deer (Gun)	69201	4046
> Deer (Bow)	17766	406
> Deer (Muz)	11872	537
> 
> 2003-4
> Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
> Deer (Gun)	70804	4408
> Deer (Bow)	17404	383
> Deer (Muz)	12819	697
> 
> 2004-5
> Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
> Deer (Gun)	58005	3194
> Deer (Bow)	17939	558
> Deer (Muz)	11387	764
> 
> How's that go? "Lies, Damn lies, and statistics...". I'm sure the argument will be, "hunter numbers down, x-bows will get more people in the woods..." Best year for bowhunters was 1/32 efforts, which is pretty pitiful. Even the poor gun hunters' best year is 1/16 efforts. Either all the hunters stink, or our deer population stinks. Based upon my days in a tree, I'd attest to the latter. La is not a state with a surplus deer problem, nor are we desperate to come up with new and improved ways to kill 'em. Just like the annual assault on truat and redfish by the commercial interests, I'm sure the folks that sell crossbows will bang on this each year.


Ummmm.... Ok, I thought this was a good start, but I was wrong.

According to the USF&W, Louisiana State Review of Hunting, Fishing and Wildlife Related Recreation, YEAR 2001, Participation in Louisiana for hunting and fishing are as follows:

HUNTING: 333,000 Hunters (all hunters, all seasons, res and non-res)
FISHING: 970,000 Anglers (all anglers, all waters, all species, res and non-res)

Now, I haven't started digging into this report, yet, as I just opened it about 2 minutes ago.

If I get around to it, I will give you a little more info.

IF the numbers you have provided me are only those pertaining to a certain area, or whatever, please fill me in. Otherwise, if LA has sustained this this type of Loss in ONE YEAR, well, put the Hymn books down, the Mass is over. You have a far larger issue oif reporting and properly measuring your deer. Seems to me you need money to do that, and, if you all are this challenged, respectfully I state your DNR may be underfunded, and hunters don't care to report. I am very confused.... Please help me out.


Please clarify your numbers.


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## Fireemt124

ok I know you don't like the weapons comparison, but since crossbows are not legal yet in Louisiana, I will use the gun in this example. Say a person decides they want to get into the sport of hunting. They never had a figure to teach them before. They go to their local sporting goods dealer and after some consultation they buy a gun. Now they take the gun to the range and spend some time learning the proper technique of shooting and become proficient in shooting that gun. Now they start studying the art of hunting. They learn to scout and learn proper stand placement. They learn to pattern the movement of the deer and are able to harvest a deer during their first season and become hooked on the sport of hunting. Is this person lazy?


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## Manygobbles

*reply to Doug*

You really do not have a leg to stand on. You are grasping for anything as a comeback. Argue for the sake of arguing . Complain about not having anything to complain about. Your ignorance of archery stands out clearly. I sure hope you stay up there . Talking on the archery talk forum without any foundation at all. So far you have not presented any applicable data as to your thoughts.

*** Strike 2, doctariAFC ***


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## willie

Georgia Crossbow Study

Georgia Crossbow Study Dispels Many Myths

By Bob McNitt

Following its decision to legalize hunting with crossbows, starting with the 2002 archery season, the State of Georgia's DNR has kept accurate records to reflect the impact the decision would have, on both the deer and the hunting community. Following the two-year study, the data collected dispelled several myths regarding the horizontal bow's impact on the resource and the hunting force.

In a report prepared by Nick Nicholson, Senior Wildlife Biologist for the DNR, the number of archery deer hunters and archery deer harvest increased significantly by 11.6-percent and 44.3-percent, respectively, during the 2003-04 season. Statewide, 36.7-percent of all deer hunters hunted with archery equipment during the 2003-04 season.

In 2003-04 there were about 9,300 additional archers, the majority of that increase being attributed to crossbow legalization. However, the data indicated that any additional deer harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows was not significant at a statewide level. Nicholson notes, "If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the 0.49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive, then about 4,550 additional deer would be attributed to these new archery (crossbow) hunters."

The success rate for crossbows (0.49 deer/hunter) proved to be comparable to that of compound bows (0.51 deer/hunter). The survey indicates that 78.5-percent of archers use compounds. "It is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow," Nicholson wrote. "Even if they did, the traditional archer success rate (0.46 deer/hunter) is only slightly lower than that of crossbow hunters. The data showed that older archers are more likely to report hunting with a crossbow. Archers over 50 years old were significantly more likely to report using a crossbow than archers under 50 years old."

Nicholson also notes that "The debate among hunters about legalization of crossbows is reminiscent of a similar debate on the 1977-78 legalization of compound bows. The technological leap from recurve bows to compound bows was much greater than the current move to crossbows. (Crossbows actually are more "primitive" than compound bows, having been around since the fourth century BC.) Crossbows provide the opportunity for older archers to participate in archery deer hunting longer. They also introduce additional hunters into the sport of archery. It is likely that many of them will seek increased archery hunting challenges and change to compound or recurve bows. Recruiting new archers and retaining older ones is a positive event for all hunters."

For more information visit the Georgia DNR website.
http://www.gadnr.org/index.html

http://www.realtree.com/community/n...tail.tpl?ID=709


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## willie

Crossbows and Vertical Bows.. 
________________________________________
http://www.starbeacon.com/?MC=SPORTS&NID=3&AID=10167

Archery season is in full swing and the rut is approaching fast. So why should I bring up such a controversial subject as crossbows?

Even though crossbows are legal during any deer hunting season in the state of Ohio, they still spawn a heated debate among archers. 

I don’t know how well you’ve been paying attention to the kid’s pictures that have graced these pages, but several of them have taken their harvest with a crossbow. 

I’ve had some comments and questions about the legality and ethics of the using crossbows. So I thought I’d address the issue with facts and maybe a little of "here’s my take on the issue." 

Definition of bows 

- Long bow - A device for firing arrows, consisting of a curved flexible piece of wood and a taut string fastened to the two ends. A hand drawn wooden bow. The earliest type of bow and often referred to as a traditional bow. A hand-drawn wooden bow held vertically and used especially by medieval English archers 

- Re-curve bow - The re-curve bow is a variation of the long bow with limbs that curve backwards. The word re-curves meaning a reverse curvature near the tips of the limbs. 

- Compound bow - A bow which has a system of cams or pulleys, cables, and a bowstring to shoot the arrow. The bow may also have instead a single or double cam design. The purpose of the cams is to increase the effective draw weight of the bow while allowing the archer to hold less draw weight when at the full draw length. 

- Crossbow - A crossbow is a powerful bow that fires bolts: a medieval weapon, or its modern sports successor, consisting of a bow attached crosswise to a stock with a cranking mechanism and a trigger. A crossbow fires short heavy arrows called bolts or quarrels. A crossbow may have straight limbs or have a compound design with the limbs mounted horizontally on a stock. The arrows are fired with a release mechanism or a trigger usually incorporating a safety device that blocks the release of the trigger.

- Note - The effective range of a crossbow is no greater than that of any other bow. 

The definitions above were obtained from several sources, Webster’s Dictionary, Ohio Hunter’s Education Manual and MSN Online Encarta Dictionary. I put them in for the purpose of comparison along with a widely accepted definition of exactly what each bow consists of. Now, lets see what the Pope & Young Club has to say about bows and their definitions of them, taken directly from their Web page, www.pope-younf.org. Keep in mind, we are discussing hunting here, not sport shooting, 3D or anything like that. 

Pope & Young definitions: 

Per their standards, "a hunting bow for big game shall be longbows, flat bow, re-curve bow, compound bow or any combination of these designs meeting the following requirements and restrictions:"

It is, "a device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs." 

According to them, "the bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter’s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter." 

They go on to say, "The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter’s either relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid." 

They also go into a definition of what is not constituted as a hunting bow: 

P & Y’s Bow Prohibitions: 

The following shall not be considered a hunting bow: 

- A crossbow - Wow, that’s right to the point 

Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter’s muscle power. That can mean only one or two items, a crossbow or the "Draw Lock"‚ for compound bows. 

Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow. 

I guess this means the type of mechanism attached to "crossbows" that helps the archer pull the 150 to 175 pounds of draw weight back on a "crossbow". 

No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height. 

This obviously directs itself to the rail on which the bolt rests on a "crossbow". 

- Comment - After this they go into other items such as let off for compound bows, hunting arrows and broadheads. 
Star Beacon Advertisements 


I truly think that Pope & Young is an outstanding organization. They stand for a lot more than just bow hunting and trophy deer records. 

But, they have long contended that crossbows are not a viable archery tool for hunting. They profess that they do not think they should be illegal but that you should not be allowed to use them during archery season. Gun season is ok but not archery. 

Why this mindset still exists is beyond me. If you look back at the definitions you‚ll see that crossbows existed long before the modern day compound did, "a medieval weapon". 

Is it because they at least look like a traditional bow? With all the bells and whistles you get and can add on today’s modern compound bow including the radical limb designs that seems to be a far throw. 

- Fact - There are thousands of sportsmen and women out there who would love to try bow hunting but can’t because they can’t pull a covenantal bow back. 

In Ohio, the minimum draw weight for compound and long bows is 40 pounds. If it were not for progressive thinking of our Department of Natural Resources many Ohioans would be sitting on the couch watching soap operas instead of being outside enjoying nature at it’s finest. 

Ohio is one of the very few states that allow cross bows during the archery season. In fact there are only a total of 8 states that allow crossbows to be used during archery only season. There are another 18 states that allow crossbows to be used the gun season only. 

- Fact - The Archery Trade Association (ATA) stated since the federal agencies recognize crossbows and their accessories as archery equipment through the Federal Archery Excise tax, so does the ATA. This is the largest entity out there representing archers and the equipment they use. 

- Fact - The National Bowhunters Education Foundation (NBEF) has finally expanded its scope and thinking on crossbows. It recently released a 30 page booklet introducing crossbow hunters education to their coarse and published "Today’s Crossbow - An addendum to a Hunter Education or Bowhunter Education Course." Since 1979, when bowhunter education classes were first introduced, the NBEF had the same mindset as Pope & Young - no crossbows. This organization and their course is recognized world wide as the leader in bowhunting education. 

- Fact - In the state of Ohio, the records speak for themselves whether or not crossbows are viable hunting implements or not. For the 2004-2005 season, here are the statistics: 

- Antlered Deer Taken with a crossbow - 18,532, with a Vertical Bow: 12,490 

- Antlerless Deer Taken with a crossbow - 17,197, with a Vertical bow: 12,407 

- Ashtabula County Antler with a crossbow - 462, with a vertical bow: 265 

- Ashtabula County Antlerless with a crossbow - 428, with a Vertical bow: 277 

Statistics don’t lie. Crossbow hunters get more deer than vertical bow hunters. 

- Fact - Wildlife agencies all over the United States are recognizing what Ohio has for a long time. The crossbow is a way to increase hunter participation and retention. It is also a statistically proven way to curb the ever increasing whitetail deer population.


----------



## Fireemt124

doctariAFC said:


> Ummmm.... Ok, I thought this was a good start, but I was wrong.
> 
> According to the USF&W, Louisiana State Review of Hunting, Fishing and Wildlife Related Recreation, YEAR 2001, Participation in Louisiana for hunting and fishing are as follows:
> 
> HUNTING: 333,000 Hunters (all hunters, all seasons, res and non-res)
> FISHING: 970,000 Anglers (all anglers, all waters, all species, res and non-res)
> 
> Now, I haven't started digging into this report, yet, as I just opened it about 2 minutes ago.
> 
> If I get around to it, I will give you a little more info.
> 
> IF the numbers you have provided me are only those pertaining to a certain area, or whatever, please fill me in. Otherwise, if LA has sustained this this type of Loss in ONE YEAR, well, put the Hymn books down, the Mass is over. You have a far larger issue oif reporting and properly measuring your deer. Seems to me you need money to do that, and, if you all are this challenged, respectfully I state your DNR may be underfunded, and hunters don't care to report. I am very confused.... Please help me out.
> 
> 
> Please clarify your numbers.


Doc, the numbers previously listed are off of WMA's which is the only place a deer has to be checked being as Louisiana is not on a tag system. The only way deer not taken on WMA can be tracked is by the processor recording the hunters license # then some don't do that. And a large amount of hunters process the meat themselves. So there is not a system for tracking the total amount of deer taken in the state of Louisiana.


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## Manygobbles

*reply to fireemt124*

No he is not. He made a traditional entrance in the firearms season. I wish I could explain Intent to you, so you would see my point. But you have to be willing to admit, if the point comes clear to you, that, " yes, now I see- mg is right." If you know ahead of time, that you will never admit I am right, then we are clearly just wasting time here. I WILL clearly bow down when I am wrong. 

Anyway, the person had the SPECIFIC INTENT to avoid the work required to become proficient with bow-and-arrow in the past, but now, all of a sudden wants to hunt the October season with a xbow, BECAUSE the work is not required. do you see the LAZY point. WORK!!! that is the key. effort. sweat, time. Today's Instant Gratification desire. That is what I oppose. I do not respect people who try to get by in life by not carrying their own weight. 

Next time you are at the fire house, and all the guys are outside rolling up hoses, try pulling up a lawn chair, with a cold soda and sunglasses, and just sit there with a straw hat on and watch them. Do no help. What do you think the other firemen would think of you ? That is the exact same thing.


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## Fireemt124

Yes, if a person is sitting on his rear just waiting for crossbows to be legalized, and knows all the work required to hunt, he/she would be lazy.But in the example I gave, the person knows nothing about hunting and the work required. Let's say crossbows are legal. This person comes in and looks at all the choices and decides the crossbow is what he likes and then proceeds as in the previous scenario. Are they lazy? And for the last part, if a person is brand new at our firestation we do not let him/her roll hose until they have properly learned the correct way to do it.


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## Fireemt124

btw, if someone is right and I am wrong I will admit it. My goal here is not to prove anybody wrong, just to show why I support the crossbow.


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## doctariAFC

Fireemt124 said:


> Doc, the numbers previously listed are off of WMA's which is the only place a deer has to be checked being as Louisiana is not on a tag system. The only way deer not taken on WMA can be tracked is by the processor recording the hunters license # then some don't do that. And a large amount of hunters process the meat themselves. So there is not a system for tracking the total amount of deer taken in the state of Louisiana.


WHAT???????

:jaw: :jaw: :jaw: :jaw: :jaw:


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## willie

Manygobbles said:


> .................Anyway, the person had the SPECIFIC INTENT to avoid the work required to become proficient with bow-and-arrow in the past, but now, all of a sudden wants to hunt the October season with a xbow, BECAUSE the work is not required. do you see the LAZY point. WORK!!! that is the key. effort. sweat, time. Today's Instant Gratification desire. That is what I oppose. I do not respect people who try to get by in life by not carrying their own weight.......


The very same thing could be said of a bowhunter that opts for all the whiz bang high tech compound bows too.

Is he *LAZY *too because he does not put forth the "effort, sweat, time" to master a longbow or a recurve?

I've hunted and killed animals with every kind of archery equipment imaginable and I see *NO* difference in the hunt itself.That is where the rubber meets the road, *NOT* in the ease or difficulty of mastering a certain piece of archery gear.


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## Manygobbles

*ay boy, again and again*

the weapon comparison. I have things to do. Phew!


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## progers

Where did these numbers come from? WMA? One single area?

There is no way this the the whole state!!!!


2002-3
Hunting People Checked Game Checked
Deer (Gun) 69201 4046
Deer (Bow) 17766 406
Deer (Muz) 11872 537

2003-4
Hunting People Checked Game Checked
Deer (Gun) 70804 4408
Deer (Bow) 17404 383
Deer (Muz) 12819 697

2004-5
Hunting People Checked Game Checked
Deer (Gun) 58005 3194
Deer (Bow) 17939 558
Deer (Muz) 11387 764



DMAP deer kills are not counted on seasonal bag limits. 

We have no check in stations for regular hunters. 

We have several organizations taking deer for feed the hungry programs, that give away nice prices I might add.


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## doctariAFC

Ok.... I'm a gonna aska the question again....

Please, someone, does anyone KNOW or have Stats of LA's hunter participation for the years between now and 2001. If you ain't got it, get it. License sales totals..... Entire State - Freedom of information act.

Estimated deer population. Who is tracking this? Fish & Wildlife? ANother division? I see some interesting programs like DMAP for 500 acres or more and the Landowners Version for minimum 40 acres to 500. Where or how are the tag numbers issued determined? How does the department set its "goals". Someone must have numbers? I hope???

Let's get some indicative numbers on a statewide basis. Biologists are using something. Get that info, please.

Next, specifically with the WMUs and the mandatory reporting. What is the habitat quality here? How many farms exist in Louisiana. Forgive me, but again, I am trying to get a handle on the number of operating farms, and whether anyone knows if this number is declining? Or are there plenty of farms in close proximity to the WMUs? How is the food supply on the WMUs? What land management strategies are in palce, if any, to make certain habitat is at least watched and identified when the successional changes that naturally occur are not beginning to shrink the food on these lands down to the level which the furry buggers trot on off to greener pastures.

Based on the information that has been presented thus far, I hate to say it, but very little credibility is achieved here guys. I will find this information, but I really don't want to. Please, for the sake of solid discussion and reality of perspectives for all sides, let's get ALL THE FACTS.....

No more, lazy weapons, no more it'll decimate the herds, no more emotion. Let's get some facts, please. This discussion screams for it, because it appears a larger issue may be facing Louisiana hunters, and it will take ALL hunters in LA tro get some changes for the better made.

Incidentally, LA hunters based on USF&W numbers generated in 2001 nearly half a BILLION DOLLARS to the State Economy. This is a cash generator, with the average spend per hunter running between $1100.00 and nearly $1700 annually. That's pretty good. Compare to NY, we have average spend @ $1300 per annually ($880 million economic impact - 724,000 total hunters, 2001)

Does anyone not agree to the importance of getting teh right numbers, regardless of the issue in this thread?


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## Manygobbles

*Resign*

I resign from your biased one sided forum. Now, you used up ALL 3 strikes yankee.

*** Thanking you for earning an EOP action. And it was done in fine form, too.... doctariAFC ***


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## Jim C

DougK said:


> Manygobbles, have you been to the archery range lately? I've seen lots of guys too lazy to learn how to shoot a bow-in archery. Overdrawing-pulling too much weight is the most common..
> 
> Going over to the traditional camp-lots there are too lazy to learn to shoot properly. Snap shooting...and just plain lousy shooting common place.
> 
> as I said, grow up...



agreed-from 1995 til about October of this year I spent at least 10 to 30 hours a week at commercial archery ranges. I also shot 3D every summer week from 1996-2000. I could write a book on all the form flaws I saw in trad and compound archers-all of whom were "hunters"

several times I offered (I am NFAA Master coach, NAA Level II basic Coach with a couple thousand hours of experience) to help them and most would say stuff like "I'm just a hunter" or I shoot good enough to hit a deer

My first year JOAD kids could shoot better than 90% of the hunters I see

accuracy is something the anti xbow guys whine about-they don't like easily obtainable accuracy 

that destroys our position with the non hunting public


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## progers

*please read this...*

Don, at this time we are having difficulty putting our hands on those numbers. Dave Moreland in LA is the man to talk with and we will do just that tomorrow.


But, here is a nice article Dave just wrote about this very issue.

Food for thought......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bow seasons for deer typically start earlier, last longer and offer more either-sex opportunities than do gun seasons. In addition, some public areas allow only bowhunting, so Louisiana archers enjoy some of the most rewarding experiences in the wild.

The state sells about 145,000 big game licenses each year, reports Dave Moreland, Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries deer biologist. Not everyone needs an annual license: Children and senior citizens are exempt because of age, and 30,000 lifetime license holders have paid for the permanent right to hunt the deer seasons. Put all of those together with the annual permittees, and it comes to about 200,000 hunters bagging between 220,000 and 250,000 deer in the Bayou State each year.

"Our archery license numbers have been dropping," Moreland said. "We sell a little less than 30,000 archery licenses."

Proposals from the Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Commission could spark more archery license sales. In public meetings across the state, LDWF biologists encouraged Louisiana hunters to bag more does and leave more bucks to grow larger antlers. During the LWFC meeting of March 4, 2004, commissioners discussed a proposal to limit the deer harvest to no more than two antlered bucks per person per season. Limiting buck harvests could make archery equipment more attractive, because the state allows archers more latitude to take deer of either sex.

In order to help keep surplus populations in check, biologists encourage hunters to bag more does. Too, trimming the doe population and limiting the buck harvest arguably can lead to more and bigger trophy bucks. Any given piece of land can support only so many animals - a potential known as "carrying capacity" - so, in principle, a reduction in the number deer feeding on any available habitat should increase the size of the remainder. Eliminating a doe surplus might allow the surviving females to gain weight and produce healthier offspring; with more food, bucks would also grow larger bodies and more-impressive antlers.


WE'VE COME A LONG, LONG WAY
Just a few decades ago, Louisiana hunters faced quite the opposite problem: Centuries of subsistence hunting and a growing human population's encroachment on habitat and urbanization of wilderness areas took a heavy toll on wildlife. In 1900, fewer than 400,000 deer roamed North America, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and early in the 20th century, Louisiana was home to fewer than 70,000 deer; as recently as the early 1970s, seeing a deer track in the forest brought excitement to local sportsmen. In places that allowed hunting, sportsmen could only bag bucks, does being too important for species repopulation.

Intelligent management brought deer numbers back; according to Moreland, the population of the state's herd ultimately swelled to more than a million animals. Today, deer inhabit nearly every possible acre of suitable habitat, some having even expanded into marginal areas such as brackish marshes and urban terrain. 

"Our deer herd is relatively young," Moreland observed. "In Louisiana, we restocked deer in the 1950s and 1960s. In 1969, we made our last big deer release because herds were beginning to build up."

Ironically, habitat changes actually made deer populations more robust than ever before. Once considered an animal that favored thick virgin forest, deer in fact love edges and transitional areas, and thrive in subdivided lots and farm country. Accordingly, converting forests and swamps to agricultural land or suburban sprawl expanded deer populations. Crop fields provide more food more easily obtained food than do forests. However, some changes of this sort have had negative consequences.

"This state is losing its rural identity," Moreland said. "Subdivisions are springing up everywhere. We see slight population increases in some areas where former agricultural lands are being restored to hardwoods, and slight decreases where forests become more pine-dominant. We've seen a tremendous change in timber management of the mixed pine and hardwood forests. Many commercial forests are becoming pine plantations. The hardwood component is not what it used to be."

Today many of Louisiana's white-tailed deer are living virtually under the noses of the human residents, hiding during the day in gardens or small pockets of woods and emerging at night to roam golf courses and yards. In suburban areas, deer browse amid the landscaping, plucking vegetables from gardens and nibbling shrubs planted around houses. They feed on backyard fruit trees and orchards, often causing millions of dollars of damage. Highly adaptable and elusive, several deer could easily live literally at a suburban doorstep without any of the inhabitants ever catching a glimpse of their whitetail neighbors. 


A SUBURBAN PROBLEM'S ARCHERY SOLUTION
While deer thrive in some populated areas, most remain off limits to hunting, and many big bucks accordingly grow old and die of natural causes unseen by hunters. Concealed by thick brush, the animals watch as the humans with whom they share the space go about their domestic lives, and then come out at night to eat their two-legged neighbors' succulent (and expensive) ornamental plants.

As deer come into ever more conflict with human populations in the suburbs and exurbs, those living in such areas often push officials to trim excessively invasive herds. And while the residents of bedroom communities don't want to hear the report of a 7mm Magnum booming through the streets at 7 a.m., they frequently don't mind hunters killing deer with quiet and unobtrusive archery equipment.

Archers can often gain access to small parcels of land off limits to rifle hunters and target giant, unstressed deer never exposed to other hunters. In a heavily hunted area, a large buck may never move during daylight, but heavy-racked kings holed up in small woodlots have been known to lose some of their natural wariness, and archers can slip into small patches of woods, set up and bag impressive bucks without anyone or anything else even knowing they hunted there.



still interested? read more: http://www.lagameandfish.com/hunting/la_aa082304a/


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## jkcckc

*It isn't fair*

If people who aren't disabled or handicaped or over 60, what is their reason to now bo hunt. Most cross bows have 100-200 lb pull granted most come with some mechanism to pull it back for them, but why should some one who isn't one of those 3 catagories can't pull a bow back and hold allowed to use a cross bow. there are many bows out there that have verry forgiving let off's (concept 99% let off everything else 65% or so). no ever said to hunt with a bow you have to use an 70# draw weight. I killed my first doe with 35LB pse bow over 10 years ago. It would not be fair, the ones that would start "bowhunting" now have no excuse to go on. if they can hold up a cross bow to shoot, then they can hold up a regular bow. If they can't pull it back and hold it get s diferent bow with less LBS and more let off, or have a medical reason get a permit. in one of the threads it said
"Kills game very quickly. 
For ethical hunting that's a neccisity.... 
er necessity "

My grandfather has hunted with one for as long as i have bowhunted, the bow does not kill the deer or game . it is the shot placement. he has had track deer just as far as i have because of poor shots. so that so called fact doesn't weigh much.

Some one said people will think it is fun, i have shot crossbows , yes they are "fun" , just as much fun as my compound bow. throwing a stick of dinamite in the water to fish is fun , but does it make it legal, no.

I have always hunted in louisiana and where ever i have been stationed. when i get out i plan to stay in louisiana to hunt ther for the rest of my life. I understand that crossbows give many people who can not use a regular bow to bow hunt. that shouldnot affect those who just don't want to learn how to.


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## progers

jkcckc said:


> If people who aren't disabled or handicaped or over 60, what is their reason to now bo hunt. Most cross bows have 100-200 lb pull granted most come with some mechanism to pull it back for them, but why should some one who isn't one of those 3 catagories can't pull a bow back and hold allowed to use a cross bow. there are many bows out there that have verry forgiving let off's (concept 99% let off everything else 65% or so). no ever said to hunt with a bow you have to use an 70# draw weight. I killed my first doe with 35LB pse bow over 10 years ago. It would not be fair, the ones that would start "bowhunting" now have no excuse to go on. if they can hold up a cross bow to shoot, then they can hold up a regular bow. If they can't pull it back and hold it get s diferent bow with less LBS and more let off, or have a medical reason get a permit. in one of the threads it said
> "Kills game very quickly.
> For ethical hunting that's a neccisity....
> er necessity "
> 
> My grandfather has hunted with one for as long as i have bowhunted, the bow does not kill the deer or game . it is the shot placement. he has had track deer just as far as i have because of poor shots. so that so called fact doesn't weigh much.
> 
> Some one said people will think it is fun, i have shot crossbows , yes they are "fun" , just as much fun as my compound bow. throwing a stick of dinamite in the water to fish is fun , but does it make it legal, no.
> 
> I have always hunted in louisiana and where ever i have been stationed. when i get out i plan to stay in louisiana to hunt ther for the rest of my life. I understand that crossbows give many people who can not use a regular bow to bow hunt. that shouldnot affect those who just don't want to learn how to.



Welcome jkcckc! We love our troops! Be glad when you get back to the Bayou State!

Let me say that the first list of reasons that I laid out were from a debate at TNUSA. I think some of the reasons you are referring to were meant as humorous. Please understand that they were not all my reasons but, most I agreed with.



Next, I found some more interesting STUFF:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Louisiana's 2005 Deer Outlook Part 1: Our Top Hunting Areas
The Bayou State has a wealth of public deer hunting land that's noteworthy for its potential. Let's pin down the whereabouts of the best of that.

http://www.lagameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/LA_1005_01/

DISTRICT 1
The habitat here in northwestern Louisiana is very favorable in terms of producing big numbers of whitetails. The records both of private lands under the Deer Management Assistance Program (DMAP) and of WMAs demonstrate deer harvests to be in the higher-than-average range. The habitat consists chiefly of pine and mixed pine-hardwood habitat types managed by various timber companies and the LDWF.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Louisiana's 2005 Deer Outlook Part 2: Our Top Trophy Areas
Last month we covered the likeliest places to go for harvesting a deer -- any deer. This month, however, we identify our best bets for making a kill that's definitely more than just "any deer."

http://www.lagameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/LA_1105_01/


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## doctariAFC

Welcome to the debate Sgt. First off, I would like to thank you for your service to our Great Nation. :yo:

Please allow me to ask some questions of you in the attempts to avoid yet another attack from the other side, ok?



jkcckc said:


> If people who aren't disabled or handicaped or over 60, what is their reason to now bo hunt. Most cross bows have 100-200 lb pull granted most come with some mechanism to pull it back for them, but why should some one who isn't one of those 3 catagories can't pull a bow back and hold allowed to use a cross bow. there are many bows out there that have verry forgiving let off's (concept 99% let off everything else 65% or so). no ever said to hunt with a bow you have to use an 70# draw weight. I killed my first doe with 35LB pse bow over 10 years ago. It would not be fair, the ones that would start "bowhunting" now have no excuse to go on. if they can hold up a cross bow to shoot, then they can hold up a regular bow. If they can't pull it back and hold it get s diferent bow with less LBS and more let off, or have a medical reason get a permit. in one of the threads it said
> "Kills game very quickly.
> For ethical hunting that's a neccisity....
> er necessity "


Why does anybody want to hunt in the first place? Regardless of implement choice? 
Next, why does a hunter, who is typically introduced to hunting (big game) through firearms first decide to take up archery (I kinda think its to get more days in the woods, and a better chance at harvesting because of the deer of either sex thing)?
Why do some firearms hunters use different firearms for their different hunts? Or why do some archery hunters use recurves/ long bows AND compound bows during the hunting season?



jkcckc said:


> My grandfather has hunted with one for as long as i have bowhunted, the bow does not kill the deer or game . it is the shot placement. he has had track deer just as far as i have because of poor shots. so that so called fact doesn't weigh much.


If this is a true statement (and it most certainly is), does this mean that even a hunter who chooses a crossbow MUST put some time and work in to become proficient to place the shot? Does this not also mean that the notion of you pick up a crossbow and suddenly you are William Tell argument is out the window? Or is it the imnpression that you don't have to do as much work as you maybe had to? How long have you bowhunted? Was grandpa practicing with his implements or no? If he did, well, I see no laziness. If he didn't, its his own fault and not the crossbow. Lazy is lazy, and this is not a characteristic of an implement, it is a characteristic of a hunter, and spans all implements. No disrespect to your grandfather intended.



jkcckc said:


> Some one said people will think it is fun, i have shot crossbows , yes they are "fun" , just as much fun as my compound bow. throwing a stick of dinamite in the water to fish is fun , but does it make it legal, no.


So is using a compound, a recurve, a shotgun, a rifle, a musket (which I am proficient with and use all), right? The fun isn't for you with the crossbow. Does this mean it shouldn't be for someone else?



jkcckc said:


> I have always hunted in louisiana and where ever i have been stationed. when i get out i plan to stay in louisiana to hunt ther for the rest of my life. I understand that crossbows give many people who can not use a regular bow to bow hunt. that shouldnot affect those who just don't want to learn how to.


Do you not also think that it is about learning how to hunt? The crossbow doesn't make anyone a superior hunter automatically. This is only done by the hunter putting his or her time in.

Hunter numbers are dropping. This opens up a whole can of worms in regards to Conservation Fund dollars, our ability to have an effective political voice to keep the anti's from winning their fight against us, wildlife management goals and conservation abilities diminish, land purchases for green spaces evaporate with the declining funds. 

I hope I have offered you a little different perspective to think about...

Again, welcome to the debate.


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## Fireemt124

*jkcckc*

I too thank you for your service. Been to Okinawa several times. Came through Kadena. BC Street,woooow..........what were we talking about before    .


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## progers

Arrow Trajectory for Xbow

250 FPS

10yds. +2.28 
20yds. 0 
30yds. -8.32 
40yds. -22.93 
50yds. -44.13 

300 FPS

10yds. +1.32 
20yds. 0 
30yds. -5.5 
40yds. -15.36 
50yds. -29.75 

350 FPS

10yds. +0.75 
20yds. 0 
30yds. -3.81 
40yds. -10.81 
50yds. -21.13 


30 yards is maximum comfort zone. Anything else is major compensation on behalf of an inxperienced shooter. 

Anyone have trajectory charts on compounds of equal FPS?


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## progers

So, this is this closest number that we have so far. With LA writing the next 3years of regulations all at one time this year, which has never happened before I might add, should tell us these numbers can be averaged over a few years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

about 200,000 hunters bagging between 
220,000 and 250,000 deer in the Bayou State each year.


little less than 30,000 archery licenses sold



Fact: xbows will increase archery licenses sales hence, more revenue.


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## DJH

We must be careful of making definite statements like “All crossbow hunters are slobs that are too lazy to learn how to shoot a real bow" That is one example of a definite statement that is just not true. Many of our new crossbow hunters will be bowhunters. Many of them will be older hunters that have years and years of experience. When I hear anti-crossbow proponents state that crossbow have an advantage because you don’t have to draw them back when the deer is gets within range I just smile. No you do not have to draw a crossbow back, but you have to shoulder it to the firing position, which equals motion. But after thirty-three years of bowhunting I know that any successful bowhunter does not draw back his bow or shoulder his bow when the deer is looking at him. All experience bowhunters know, or at least should know, that a deer can see approximately 300 degrees from the center if its nose. If you draw back your bow or shoulder it when you can see the deer’s eyeball, your going to get busted. Wait! Wait until its head is behind a tree or it is looking exactly away from you. If you don’t, the only shot you are going to have is a Texas heart shot at a running deer!

The nasty thing about hunting whitetails is that they can move at the speed of light. If an animal comes into your shooting arena and it is a nervous as a turkey the day before thanksgiving, regardless of what you are shooting, chances are it’s not going to be standing where it was when you took aim by the time your arrow gets there. This is another reason that long shots with a crossbow are foolish. There is no way to make a crossbow quiet. Granted some are less noisy than others, but they are still much louder than a vertical bow. A long crossbow shot just gives that whitetail more time to head for the next county, especially if it is boogered before you take you shot. As with any archery equipment, there are simple common sense things that each hunter should take into consideration before he lets his arrow fly. It is the responsible thing to do and we owe it to the animals we hunt. I HATE wounding animals. 

Now I understand that the folks that frequent this forum are probably the upper crust as far as hunting experience goes and that I am probably preaching to the choir. However, if we do everything that we can to help the newbies by sharing what we know, we are not only helping our fellow archers become better hunters, we will also be refining the image of the modern hunter. And that is extremely important in combating the fringe lunatics that will not be happy until every single hunting season is gone.


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## progers

Engelsmung said:


> 2002-3
> Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
> Deer (Gun)	69201	4046
> Deer (Bow)	17766	406
> Deer (Muz)	11872	537
> 
> 2003-4
> Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
> Deer (Gun)	70804	4408
> Deer (Bow)	17404	383
> Deer (Muz)	12819	697
> 
> 2004-5
> Hunting	People Checked	Game Checked
> Deer (Gun)	58005	3194
> Deer (Bow)	17939	558
> Deer (Muz)	11387	764
> 
> How's that go? "Lies, Damn lies, and statistics...". I'm sure the argument will be, "hunter numbers down, x-bows will get more people in the woods..." Best year for bowhunters was 1/32 efforts, which is pretty pitiful. Even the poor gun hunters' best year is 1/16 efforts. Either all the hunters stink, or our deer population stinks. Based upon my days in a tree, I'd attest to the latter. La is not a state with a surplus deer problem, nor are we desperate to come up with new and improved ways to kill 'em. Just like the annual assault on truat and redfish by the commercial interests, I'm sure the folks that sell crossbows will bang on this each year.




Question: 

We have 4 or 5 BSBA members here, correct? How many deer did each of you get with a bow this season? Which is still going I might add.

If the statistics are correct, then maybe only one of you 4 or 5 got only 1 deer this year, would that be correct?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
response to your quote:

Crossbow Manufactors have the right to prosper. They should. They have been around a long time. That is just business. Business is money, jobs and a means to the future. 



Fact: More people are going to stick with the compound. The cbow companies will still make plenty of money, don't worry.


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## progers

*LDWF deer harvest evaluation 02, 03, 04*

L.D.W.F. PRESENTS INITIAL DEER HARVEST EVALUATION

As always, Mother Nature played an important role in the 2003-04 deer season in Louisiana. With warm temperatures prevailing September through January, hunters harvested less this season than last. An estimated 215,000 deer were harvested in comparison to the 241,100 during the 2002-03 season. 
According to Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Deer Study Leader David Moreland, the 2003-04 season proved to be a good one for the quality and trophy deer harvest. A potential new state typical record buck was harvested in East Carrol Parish and several large non-typical bucks were also harvested. 

"It appears the number of recognition deer from 2003-04 season will be high," said Moreland. The annual harvest surveys will be mailed out at the end of February and club and landowners will also begin submitting regional harvest records.

Other factors that influenced hunter success and overall deer sightings include habitat changes, mast abundance, deer reproduction and hunter disturbance during the season. 

This past fall, mast production was mainly limited to the Red Oak group (water, willow, cherrybark, southern red, nuttall). Acorn production from the White Oak group (white oak, cow oak, overcup oak, post oak) was low overall except for a few localized area. Examination of deer stomachs revealed a high utilization of red oaks acorns around the state. Mild October and November temperatures kept native plant forage green and available for food.


still interested? read more: http://www.outdoorcentral.com/mc/pr/04/02/11b9.asp

or here: http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netgear/index.asp?cn=lawlf&pid=13&id=1076527217


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## cynic

I am truly sorry for not being one for statistics and numbers. I can only base on true life experience. I started gun hunting with my dad with a H&r 158 topper when I was 8 9 yrs old at the family hunting club, dog hunting of all things. Then as we got older we started still hunting with rifles. This went on for years. Then when I was mid-late 20's I was introduced to ARCHERY. I loved it so much I hunted season after season with only a recurve no guns, no bullets. Then I got a compound WOW this is easy. Way easier than my recurve and it only had a 50% letoff finally my first big rack. Was it the compound that made the difference. NO, it was the scouting, the right wind and the rut. Now I'm in my mid 40's still shooting bows. I hunted with my dad for the first time in 28 yrs and used a rifle. When it came to the moment of truth it didn't matter what was in my hand. It was still about the hunt the scouting the stand placement. I am not advocating using guns in all seasons. I am pointing out that each of us have a choice as to what weapon we use and the seasons we hunt. I use a bow 75% of my hunts then a ML even in general gun. Why, Because that is what I choose. Just as with archers will still have the right to choose whether or not to use a xbow. To use definitons of equipment by POPE & YOUNG is not definitive. The POPE & YOUNG club sets up standards for what equipment can be used to take game and be place in there scrolls of achievement. With all the new technology in bow manufacturers leaning towards higher letoff many make there equipment adjustable to accomodate the POPE & YOUNG's letoff requirement. As a sportsman and hunter all I want is to pass on the legacy of hunting to my children, friends and future hunters. Archery season is not for everyone granted, many lack the hunting skills that it takes to get game within range. DRAWING a vertical bow is not a SKILL that it takes to harvest a deer during archery season. There are many many other skills the biggest is luck. Is he coming down this trail? Which stand should I hunt? Check the wind, Flip a coin then in the end "man I should of hunted the other stand but it was a great hunt". Guys what ever it takes to get more people in the outdoors is good for all. Personally I just don't see the differences in the 2 pieces of equipment as far as capability. Many archers including myself have a set of anchor points that when contact is made on all anchors you are aligned, acquire your target, trip the release. If anyone that thinks that you don't have to anchor on a crossbow or rifle you are wrong. To be able to shoot anything you first need consistant sighting technics so that you look thru the optic/sight the same each time you squeeze the trigger. Any change of angle changes alignment and impact. Shooting a xbow doesn't make you lazy. Lazy is a state of being way before the choice of weapon.


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## Marvin

progers said:


> Arrow Trajectory for Xbow
> 
> 250 FPS
> 
> 10yds. +2.28
> 20yds. 0
> 30yds. -8.32
> 40yds. -22.93
> 50yds. -44.13
> 
> 300 FPS
> 
> 10yds. +1.32
> 20yds. 0
> 30yds. -5.5
> 40yds. -15.36
> 50yds. -29.75
> 
> 350 FPS
> 
> 10yds. +0.75
> 20yds. 0
> 30yds. -3.81
> 40yds. -10.81
> 50yds. -21.13
> 
> 
> 30 yards is maximum comfort zone. Anything else is major compensation on behalf of an inxperienced shooter.
> 
> Anyone have trajectory charts on compounds of equal FPS?



I told doctari that i was going to stay out of this but this post is a total lie. 
30 yard comfort zone? funny how my dad can keep a 6 inch group at 50 yards with his. don't think for one minute anyone believes you. have you hunted with a crossbow? you will notice that most crossbow scopes have 3 to 4 lines to compensate for bolt drop. why is that if its a 30 yard weapon. they should only need 2...hhhmmmmm sorry doc...i am out now.....


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I told doctari that i was going to stay out of this but this post is a total lie.
> 30 yard comfort zone? funny how my dad can keep a 6 inch group at 50 yards with his. don't think for one minute anyone believes you. have you hunted with a crossbow? you will notice that most crossbow scopes have 3 to 4 lines to compensate for bolt drop. why is that if its a 30 yard weapon. they should only need 2...hhhmmmmm sorry doc...i am out now.....


this is funny. I have a 90M mark on my compound and recurve sights
Most of the modern compound sights now have 5 pins

I believe him and I bet any amount of money anyone wants to lose I have more experience hunting and shooting crossbows than any poster on this thread


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## progers

Marvin said:


> I told doctari that i was going to stay out of this but this post is a total lie.
> 30 yard comfort zone? funny how my dad can keep a 6 inch group at 50 yards with his. don't think for one minute anyone believes you. have you hunted with a crossbow? you will notice that most crossbow scopes have 3 to 4 lines to compensate for bolt drop. why is that if its a 30 yard weapon. they should only need 2...hhhmmmmm sorry doc...i am out now.....



What type of xbow does your dad shoot, Marvin? Just curious.

We are looking for PROOF, not here say.
I seen a guy shoot quarters out the air with a long bow, too.


I shoot long range with rifles and I am not comfortable with a 21' - 44' bullet drop and cannot keep them in a 6' group at 500 yards, which is equivelent to what you are saying he is doing with a crossbow. 



Fact: The "bolt drop" or "arrow trajectory" chart I give you is valid. Anything over 30 yards is majorly compensated for.


----------



## Fireemt124

Marvin said:


> I told doctari that i was going to stay out of this but this post is a total lie.
> 30 yard comfort zone? funny how my dad can keep a 6 inch group at 50 yards with his. don't think for one minute anyone believes you. have you hunted with a crossbow? you will notice that most crossbow scopes have 3 to 4 lines to compensate for bolt drop. why is that if its a 30 yard weapon. they should only need 2...hhhmmmmm sorry doc...i am out now.....


I believe the 30 yard comfort zone was listed for less experienced shooters if I read the whole post correctly. I'm quite sure an experienced shooter can and does feel comfortable shooting at a range farther than that. So with that being said I don't think it is a lie at all.


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## cynic

I don't have a crossbow scope on mine, I have an elite 3200 and have shot enough to know point of impact to 40 yds based on the position of the duplex. All being said, just because one can shoot 60-80-100 yds at a target does make them a good shot but that is not a true hunting application. I would believe someone making a 50yd cbow kill before a 50yd xbow. Why?, because of the noise factor. Why does a deer duck the string? Noise. It has been stated thru the yrs that until bows are capable of shooting in excess of 400 ft a second a deer will be able to jump the string. So the inovators being hard pressed to accomodate that option did what? Vibration and noise dampening. I have found that the key to successfully harvesting whitetail deer is stealth. Fast and quiet will always beat > fast and noisey in the archery arena. I am new to the xbow hunting as this is my first year, I chose the xbow as a different challenge and challenging it was. Heavier, bulkier, and more cumbersome than my cbow but I had to try it. I will continue to use it but prefer to use my compound. Isn't it great to have a choice


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## Jim C

ANOTHER point concerning distance shooting with crossbows is the noise, a point that experienced archers have noted on this thread

IBO-the Pro compound stakes can go to 50+ yards
The Crossbow Stakes are LIMITED to 45 yards

The longest (save for CLOUT) distance in official crossbow target archery is 65M

For olympic and compound-90M
For Longbow using a point of aim-100 yards


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## progers

Trivia Fact: A Cbow and Xbow both shoot slower than a BBgun.


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## Engelsmung

doctariAFC said:


> Please clarify your numbers.


 Those are WMA numbers(ie. state land). La does not have a system in place to count private land kills. They are considering tags, but the folks who like to kill more than 6 deer are up in arms. This also does not include federal land(nat'l forest or NWRs). Those are the only real stats available, other than estimates, and we do have a good number of poachers, and folks who fail to report their deer.


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## cynic

The one thing that I really enjoy is arguement on distance shooting at the target range. I practice strictly 50 yd shots with my compound from various angles. I shoot 40 yds practice shots with my xbow because my outside shot makes anything less easier. I have a 27.5 in draw and shoot 63lbs and as a hunter understand that from the release of the arrow/bolt to the time of impact at distance that great things change one movement of the animal and it is possibly only wounded. I myself feel confident of my shot at 35 yds even tho my equipment is capable of delivering much greater distances. I treat animals a lot different than targets. Hunting situations are different than shooting at the range. Effective range and applicable range are 2 entirely different ranges


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## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> I told doctari that i was going to stay out of this but this post is a total lie.
> 30 yard comfort zone? funny how my dad can keep a 6 inch group at 50 yards with his. don't think for one minute anyone believes you. have you hunted with a crossbow? you will notice that most crossbow scopes have 3 to 4 lines to compensate for bolt drop. why is that if its a 30 yard weapon. they should only need 2...hhhmmmmm sorry doc...i am out now.....


Hey, no problemo Marvin. You are more than welcome to participate in this debate. You know what we are looking for in this, in tersm of behavior, and nothing you have done here in this post is even close to borderline. You have asked a question, and raised some concerns. That's all good by me, and this is how we address the concerns.

The scopes which have those multiple site markers are pretty much the same thing as sights on compound bows which sport multiple pins. In fact, the first pin site set up I had on my first compound bow had 4 pins. I set them for 20 yrds, 30 yrds, 35 yrds and 40 yrds. Never used the 35 or 40 yrd pins, and I ended up pulling them off the site. However, some compound shooters do utilize these pins, especially moreso for competition, either 3-D or field (longer distance pins.) Do some use these for hunting. Yep. I think the bigger rub here is not how many pins you have or how far a shot a hunter will take, it is how proficient and ethical an individual hunter would be. Like has been stated in numerous threads on this issue, if a hunter can ethically harvest a deer or any other game animal at 30, 40, 50 yards, regardless of archery equipment used, hey, have at it. The issue is when a hunter is tempted to reach beyond his or her ability and fling an arrow or bolt at a target one knows they cannot hit with confidence. But, this unethical event is not limited to crossbow users. Indeed, if a hunter succombs to temptation, foregoing the ethical desire for a clean harvest and taking the ill advised shot you have little or no experience shooting at, then I would be willing to bet the hunter is the issue and not the implement. They will stretch their limits with a compound, recurve, rifle, shotgun, musket, pistol, etc.

Just for the record, Howard Hill's longest kill shot made on a Bull Elk was 187 YARDS with a self bow, no sites. Took him 3 shots to bag it. First shot was high, second was low, third was in the bingo box. At least, this is what I was told by a guy who knew Howard, and learned the art of self bow archery from Howard. For you and me, even with a rifle, that would be a stretch, I am sure. But Mr Hill is not you or me.


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> Ok.... I'm a gonna aska the question again....
> 
> Please, someone, does anyone KNOW or have Stats of LA's hunter participation for the years between now and 2001. If you ain't got it, get it. License sales totals..... Entire State - Freedom of information act.
> 
> Estimated deer population. Who is tracking this? Fish & Wildlife? ANother division? I see some interesting programs like DMAP for 500 acres or more and the Landowners Version for minimum 40 acres to 500. Where or how are the tag numbers issued determined? How does the department set its "goals". Someone must have numbers? I hope???
> 
> Let's get some indicative numbers on a statewide basis. Biologists are using something. Get that info, please.
> 
> Next, specifically with the WMUs and the mandatory reporting. What is the habitat quality here? How many farms exist in Louisiana. Forgive me, but again, I am trying to get a handle on the number of operating farms, and whether anyone knows if this number is declining? Or are there plenty of farms in close proximity to the WMUs? How is the food supply on the WMUs? What land management strategies are in palce, if any, to make certain habitat is at least watched and identified when the successional changes that naturally occur are not beginning to shrink the food on these lands down to the level which the furry buggers trot on off to greener pastures.
> 
> Based on the information that has been presented thus far, I hate to say it, but very little credibility is achieved here guys. I will find this information, but I really don't want to. Please, for the sake of solid discussion and reality of perspectives for all sides, let's get ALL THE FACTS.....
> 
> No more, lazy weapons, no more it'll decimate the herds, no more emotion. Let's get some facts, please. This discussion screams for it, because it appears a larger issue may be facing Louisiana hunters, and it will take ALL hunters in LA tro get some changes for the better made.
> 
> Incidentally, LA hunters based on USF&W numbers generated in 2001 nearly half a BILLION DOLLARS to the State Economy. This is a cash generator, with the average spend per hunter running between $1100.00 and nearly $1700 annually. That's pretty good. Compare to NY, we have average spend @ $1300 per annually ($880 million economic impact - 724,000 total hunters, 2001)
> 
> Does anyone not agree to the importance of getting teh right numbers, regardless of the issue in this thread?



Ok guys. We need to get serious today and present these numbers. I am looking and looking. I have come up with a few articles that present some of these numbers.

Dave Moreland is the man in LA that does this: contact Dave Moreland at 225-765-2348 or [email protected] 



I don't have anything on 05' - 06' except there were about 1000 xbow permits handed out in LA.


04' - 05'
about 200,000 hunters bagging between 
220,000 and 250,000 deer in the Bayou State each year.

little less than 30,000 archery licenses sold



It was about the same for a few years before.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
L.D.W.F. PRESENTS INITIAL DEER HARVEST EVALUATION
http://www.outdoorcentral.com/mc/pr/04/02/11b9.asp
http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netg...&id=1076527217


Louisiana's 2005 Deer Outlook Part 1: Our Top Hunting Areas
The Bayou State has a wealth of public deer hunting land that's noteworthy for its potential. Let's pin down the whereabouts of the best of that.

http://www.lagameandfish.com/hunting...ng/LA_1005_01/




The deer tag system E talked about was shot down by the people. They talked about having 3 doe and 3 buck.

As it is now, most everyone in LA has a 6 deer bag limit, either sex. No tags unless you are DMAP and I don't know about WMA's? LA is bad about paper work, as we all know. It is estimated 250,000 hunters take 250,000 deer per year. That is 1:1 ratio. Alot of folks will get their limit as we have already heard. Of course there will be some that get none. The deer herd numbers are very high and they are growing rapidly. Statistics are starting to show, from what I have seen here so far, archers are the ones that are on decline.


----------



## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> Those are WMA numbers(ie. state land). La does not have a system in place to count private land kills. They are considering tags, but the folks who like to kill more than 6 deer are up in arms. This also does not include federal land(nat'l forest or NWRs). Those are the only real stats available, other than estimates, and we do have a good number of poachers, and folks who fail to report their deer.


Yeah, that is BRUTAL! Hey we have run into this in NYS as well, especially since the inception of our new DECALS system (DECALS stands for Dept. of Environmental Conservation Automated License System). We have had mandatory harvest reporting in NYS for a very long time. Pre DECALS, hunters would fill in a game report card, which was affixed to the carcass tag, and then mail in the report by the end of the big game hunting season. Postage Paid. Then, the DECALS system came into being, and teh rpeorting is now done through a toll free phone call and you get to play the voice mail jail game with the automated system. Takes longer to report the harvest, and the rules state you must report within 24 hrs of your harvest. Guys would call the system, get busy signals, then say the heck with this, as no one knows what would happen if you reported your game after the 24 hr window. Still, compliance is estimated at 87%, which is down from 95% with the old way. 

And a 6 deer limit. Holy Freholy. That's a lot of animals. I guess this would explain the projected or estimated 220,000 deer harvested over 200,000 hunters I read in that article.

Poaching is an issue for certain. This is where unity in the sportsmen community will be critical to reduce this and also install a stronger, more accurate and detailed reporting system as to get a better understanding of harvests, hunter success rates, population measurements, etc.

Of course, if deer numbers are growing and no real issues with starvation or serious wipe out are occurring, then I guess LA sportsmen and women must decide what's best to do for the sport and the herds.


----------



## PMantle

Manygobbles said:


> *** Post Deleted by doctariAFC. for the reason of injecting feeling and personal opinion when clearly directed otherwise. Gotta practice to get good at any implement. Not the issue. State FACTS ****



Wait, personal opinions are not allowed? Dude, you are way too close to the issue to do this. You use Jim C type arguments and gripe about opinion then you do exactly what you try to forbid. You need to either moderate or participate. Your bias is tainting this entire discussion.

*** Please do not challenge the moderator.... I have a zero tolerance policy and an itchy EOP trigger finger. The rules of this forum are very clear, and in regards to this thread we want FACTS, not simply opinions. Emotional, speculative statements which are not backed up with FACTS is the fastest way to have a debate disintegrate into the toilet. WHen we are debating Legislation, which is critical to all hunters, the emotional opinions serve to shut down information exchange. If all anyone wishes to do is argue, do it through PMs. In this forum, we are interested in real information exchange and idelas founded in these FACTS, not simply "I believe this, you are wrong." I hope this makes it clear. doctariAFC***


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Yeah, that is BRUTAL! Hey we have run into this in NYS as well, especially since the inception of our new DECALS system (DECALS stands for Dept. of Environmental Conservation Automated License System). We have had mandatory harvest reporting in NYS for a very long time. Pre DECALS, hunters would fill in a game report card, which was affixed to the carcass tag, and then mail in the report by the end of the big game hunting season. Postage Paid. Then, the DECALS system came into being, and teh rpeorting is now done through a toll free phone call and you get to play the voice mail jail game with the automated system. Takes longer to report the harvest, and the rules state you must report within 24 hrs of your harvest. Guys would call the system, get busy signals, then say the heck with this, as no one knows what would happen if you reported your game after the 24 hr window. Still, compliance is estimated at 87%, which is down from 95% with the old way.
> 
> And a 6 deer limit. Holy Freholy. That's a lot of animals. I guess this would explain the projected or estimated 220,000 deer harvested over 200,000 hunters I read in that article.
> 
> Poaching is an issue for certain. This is where unity in the sportsmen community will be critical to reduce this and also install a stronger, more accurate and detailed reporting system as to get a better understanding of harvests, hunter success rates, population measurements, etc.
> 
> Of course, if deer numbers are growing and no real issues with starvation or serious wipe out are occurring, then I guess LA sportsmen and women must decide what's best to do for the sport and the herds.


I suspect that if there were real numbers for private land, especially the river parishes, the situation would be much different. But there, you have a whole different dynamic. You have expensive land, discriminating hunters, and many hunters who refuse to use their doe tags. So, some areas may actually be at or above capacity, but those would be private and I really don't thing those lands add anything to this discussion because those people are choosing to do what they do and weapon choice does not factor in.


----------



## progers

Actually, we have set aside our personal opinions and we are just doing survey on numbers for the state.


----------



## PMantle

DougK said:


> It is such an inane argument to suggest xbow archers are lazy..
> 
> people you do not know-haven't talked to
> 
> you should grow up..


Hey Mod, why no strike one for this post? Where are the facts? He told someone to grow up? You'd have edited marv's post if he had said the same, and you know it.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Don, at this time we are having difficulty putting our hands on those numbers. Dave Moreland in LA is the man to talk with and we will do just that tomorrow.
> 
> 
> But, here is a nice article Dave just wrote about this very issue.]


Actually, the article was written by John Felsher, who must not hunt here, with all the silliness about suburban deer. No self respecting cajun or ******* would allow deer to eat his landscaping, without being quickly turned into sausage. I still dream of having an excess deer problem, especially on public land.

[/QUOTE]"Our archery license numbers have been dropping," Moreland said. "We sell a little less than 30,000 archery licenses."][/QUOTE]

Well sure, when the success rate on public land is no better than 1/32, and more like 1/45, lots of folks quit bowhunting, or they have to scrape together $ to join a bow only club.




[/QUOTE]A SUBURBAN PROBLEM'S ARCHERY SOLUTION
While deer thrive in some populated areas, most remain off limits to hunting, and many big bucks accordingly grow old and die of natural causes unseen by hunters. Concealed by thick brush, the animals watch as the humans with whom they share the space go about their domestic lives, and then come out at night to eat their two-legged neighbors' succulent (and expensive) ornamental plants.

As deer come into ever more conflict with human populations in the suburbs and exurbs, those living in such areas often push officials to trim excessively invasive herds. And while the residents of bedroom communities don't want to hear the report of a 7mm Magnum booming through the streets at 7 a.m., they frequently don't mind hunters killing deer with quiet and unobtrusive archery equipment.

Archers can often gain access to small parcels of land off limits to rifle hunters and target giant, unstressed deer never exposed to other hunters. In a heavily hunted area, a large buck may never move during daylight, but heavy-racked kings holed up in small woodlots have been known to lose some of their natural wariness, and archers can slip into small patches of woods, set up and bag impressive bucks without anyone or anything else even knowing they hunted there.[/QUOTE]

This doesn't happen here. Must be something author pulled from an article up in yankeeland.

[/QUOTE]still interested? read more: http://www.lagameandfish.com/hunting/la_aa082304a/[/QUOTE]

Please do. See where it's printed. Not here. For a true La Magazine, printed in Boutte, go to Louisianasportsman.com.

Anyhow, I can't believe I got dragged into this crossbow BS, after swearing it off. I am confident the BSBA will appropriately represent me in the legislature, and I will call them myself to express my opinion.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> I suspect that if there were real numbers for private land, especially the river parishes, the situation would be much different. But there, you have a whole different dynamic. You have expensive land, discriminating hunters, and many hunters who refuse to use their doe tags. So, some areas may actually be at or above capacity, but those would be private and I really don't thing those lands add anything to this discussion because those people are choosing to do what they do and weapon choice does not factor in.




The private land you speak of has the RIGHT to keep people off of it with xbows if they so CHOOSE. 

Yes, you are right. There seems to be a lot of discriminatory hunters from that area. Has something to do with trophy hunting, I would suspect. That is not benefiting the state as a whole.


----------



## progers

The reason the archery ratio is so low on the WMA you have there is because you CAN'T bait there. Those hunters are hunting the deer instead of hunting a foodplot and corn feeders. That is the ONLY reason for that low number you have provided.

No, I don't have a problem with hunting over food plots. We have them ALL year.


----------



## cynic

If we go strictly by numbers there is no arguement the only numbers provided by any state clearly suggests that the impact of the xbow would be minimal. Statistics can be made to read in either direction. Flaws in input can cause major changes. Numbers are a good place to start but don't tell the whole story. We all have our reasons Pros and cons. Putting all things aside we need to look at "what is good for sportsmen as a whole". No one will take away the right to choose a compound only adding the choice of using a xbow.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Hey Mod, why no strike one for this post? Where are the facts? He told someone to grow up? You'd have edited marv's post if he had said the same, and you know it.


I didn't see this one. You are correct.

DougK. We have been down this road before in the crossbow forum. Let's not tickle the EOP trigger finger anymore, ok?

Thanks Pmantle.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> I suspect that if there were real numbers for private land, especially the river parishes, the situation would be much different. But there, you have a whole different dynamic. You have expensive land, discriminating hunters, and many hunters who refuse to use their doe tags. So, some areas may actually be at or above capacity, but those would be private and I really don't thing those lands add anything to this discussion because those people are choosing to do what they do and weapon choice does not factor in.


Som are you saying that on private land you are permitted to use a crossbow without the restrictions of 60 yrs of age or disabled/ handicapped?


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Som are you saying that on private land you are permitted to use a crossbow without the restrictions of 60 yrs of age or disabled/ handicapped?


Not during the early or late bow season, but yes during the rifle season. I only brought it up because I wanted to point out that high deer numbers on those lands are there simply by choice of the owners and clubs. The lands are generally under hunted and they are that way by choice. There is no comparison with our public land that gets hunted a lot. We here in La. do not have situations like one might find in the Midwest where there is unhunted private land that you might gain access to. ALL huntable private land is either being hunted, or can't be hunted because of the owner's wishes. ALL public land is being hunted, and hunted hard. One of the main reasons I am always seeking a bow-only club is the problem of bumping into other hunters. We get that much pressure. There is no way to know where others are. Until you've experienced it, I don't think many can get what E and I are going through. There's basically little room left in the inn.


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> The reason the archery ratio is so low on the WMA you have there is because you CAN'T bait there. Those hunters are hunting the deer instead of hunting a foodplot and corn feeders. That is the ONLY reason for that low number you have provided.
> 
> No, I don't have a problem with hunting over food plots. We have them ALL year.


Based upon my experience at my old lease in Jonesville, this is simply not true. I never once baited, yet got more shot opportunities than the three guys I know that did bait. Would baiting help some? Probably, but it is pure speculation at this point that the increase in success would be noticeable.


----------



## Engelsmung

cynic said:


> Putting all things aside we need to look at "what is good for sportsmen as a whole". No one will take away the right to choose a compound only adding the choice of using a xbow.


Ah, the old "do what's best for hunting argument". Baiting bears and chasing cougars up a tree with dogs is legal, so everyone should be for it. High fences and canned hunts are legal, so support it. Poison pods are legal in Mississippi...why not here?

I want to start hunting with the atl atl. Unfortunately, the AAMA(Atl-Atl Manufacturers Association) has not made any inroads into the state, and dealers can't make any money selling two sticks with no accessories. There's the real interest behind the crossbow issue. Hunters aren't asking for it, dealers want another source of income.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> Not during the early or late bow season, but yes during the rifle season. I only brought it up because I wanted to point out that high deer numbers on those lands are there simply by choice of the owners and clubs. The lands are generally under hunted and they are that way by choice. There is no comparison with our public land that gets hunted a lot. We here in La. do not have situations like one might find in the Midwest where there is unhunted private land that you might gain access to. ALL huntable private land is either being hunted, or can't be hunted because of the owner's wishes. ALL public land is being hunted, and hunted hard. One of the main reasons I am always seeking a bow-only club is the problem of bumping into other hunters. We get that much pressure. There is no way to know where others are. Until you've experienced it, I don't think many can get what E and I are going through. There's basically little room left in the inn.


 How does one say that there are so many bowhunters per square acre that they can not find a place to hunt. The number of archery permits clearly states otherwise. If there are too many hunters in the woods with you then you need to be looking for the areas that aren't filled with trucks, walk a little farther. Most areas that are over hunted are because the hunters are too lazy to go that extra step, it is easy to get to, don't have to drag as far, my buddies all hunt here so on and on and on. The deer go where the hunters aren't and a true hunter will find where they went and be successfull. La is way too big to say that there is no room for anymore and if I'm reading it right even traditional archers wouldn't be accepted because "there are already too many hunters in the woods" and the woods are a over hunted as it is..


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Not during the early or late bow season, but yes during the rifle season. I only brought it up because I wanted to point out that high deer numbers on those lands are there simply by choice of the owners and clubs. The lands are generally under hunted and they are that way by choice. There is no comparison with our public land that gets hunted a lot. We here in La. do not have situations like one might find in the Midwest where there is unhunted private land that you might gain access to. ALL huntable private land is either being hunted, or can't be hunted because of the owner's wishes. ALL public land is being hunted, and hunted hard. One of the main reasons I am always seeking a bow-only club is the problem of bumping into other hunters. We get that much pressure. There is no way to know where others are. Until you've experienced it, I don't think many can get what E and I are going through. There's basically little room left in the inn.


So, no restriction on use of crossbow during the rifle season? Anyone who owns a crossbow may choose to use the crossbow during rifle if they so desire? Is this strictly on private lands, or does this apply to all lands?

I can certainly relate to the private land access woes. Hunting across the Nation is facing this issue universally. Hunters are being forced to cough up big dollars to lease land use for what amounts to only a couple months out of the year, and then when you actually factor to the time in woods, you're paying big bucks for a couple weeks out of the year at the most. LA perspective, you must cough up whatever lease fee the land owner charges to hunt on average a total of 19 days per year. WHo can afford that except the very wealthy? In fact, this problem is the primary reason for hunter number declines. According to the reviews I have done on Hunting and Fishing, the largest budget item a hunter pays is for access to hunting. This includes license fees, land access through leasing and land purchase. This single cost category is around 40%. Its like telling a hunter you can have 5 arrows for each season, but, if you want to shoot those arrows you must give 2 of them to the woodskeeper as your price of admission, and you cannot get more arrows until next year. This cost is also the fastest growing budget item, with a growth rate from 1996 to 2001 of 300+%!!!!!!

Education is critical, and we as sportsmen must do a better job of educating as to the realities of conservation. But I digress and am going off topic. 

Wow, see how beneficial this discussion is really becoming? The crossbow choice will not affect folks like you think it will, but, through this debate (a realtively civil one at that) we are finding out that all LA sportsmen have a common cause to improve conservation efforts and access so that we can do our jobs as conservationists.

Excellent information!


----------



## Engelsmung

cynic said:


> How does one say that there are so many bowhunters per square acre that they can not find a place to hunt. The number of archery permits clearly states otherwise. If there are too many hunters in the woods with you then you need to be looking for the areas that aren't filled with trucks, walk a little farther. Most areas that are over hunted are because the hunters are too lazy to go that extra step, it is easy to get to, don't have to drag as far, my buddies all hunt here so on and on and on. The deer go where the hunters aren't and a true hunter will find where they went and be successfull. La is way too big to say that there is no room for anymore and if I'm reading it right even traditional archers wouldn't be accepted because "there are already too many hunters in the woods" and the woods are a over hunted as it is..


Holy cow Pmantle! This must be the guy that is perched in our honey hole 2+ miles down the walk-in trail. Lord knows we never work hard to find that far away spot. lol.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> How does one say that there are so many bowhunters per square acre that they can not find a place to hunt. The number of archery permits clearly states otherwise. If there are too many hunters in the woods with you then you need to be looking for the areas that aren't filled with trucks, walk a little farther. Most areas that are over hunted are because the hunters are too lazy to go that extra step, it is easy to get to, don't have to drag as far, my buddies all hunt here so on and on and on. The deer go where the hunters aren't and a true hunter will find where they went and be successfull. La is way too big to say that there is no room for anymore



Come hunt with us. You can stay at my house. Like I've said before, I don't bow hunt on lands where gun hunts are going on. Have you looked at how long our gun season is? That leaves WMA's and NWR's for bowhunting during the long gun season, but even on those places, there are lots of gun days. 

Permits? I have no permit. Why? I'm a lifetime license holder, as is Engelsmung, so we aren't counted. Neither are the older guys, who BTW, might even be using a crossbow legally.

Walk a little farther? That's freakin' insulting. You have no idea how far I walk. I walk to my limit of animal retrieval. if I have use of a cart, I walk even farther. NWR's have limits on how late you can exit the woods. It's warm here most hunts-leaving an animal overnight is rarely an option.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> So, no restriction on use of crossbow during the rifle season? Anyone who owns a crossbow may choose to use the crossbow during rifle if they so desire?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is the case no matter where you hunt. And BTW, in one of my earlier posts, I gave an example of how long the gun season is. Crossbow users have many many days to hunt legally with that weapon without being either handicapped or over 60 yoa.
Click to expand...


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> There's the real interest behind the crossbow issue. Hunters aren't asking for it, dealers want another source of income.


 I thought that we are hunters. I do not own a munufacturing plant or even stock in one. I simply look at it for what it is. This is not a debate for target use it is about being able to hunt and take game legally with a xbow. As a Hunter and a sportsman the only arguement that I have read is either about laziness or possibly overcrowding of public lands. Public land is just that if someone not necessarily a hunter decided to sit in a tree next to you and play a harmonica it is his/her right. Taking game is only one of many uses permitted on PUBLIC land


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> doctariAFC said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, no restriction on use of crossbow during the rifle season? Anyone who owns a crossbow may choose to use the crossbow during rifle if they so desire?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is the case no matter where you hunt. And BTW, in one of my earlier posts, I gave an example of how long the gun season is. Crossbow users have many many days to hunt legally with that weapon without being either handicapped or over 60 yoa.
> 
> 
> 
> So that means traditional and compound archers have even more days to hunt with the weapon of there choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> Ah, the old "do what's best for hunting argument". Baiting bears and chasing cougars up a tree with dogs is legal, so everyone should be for it. High fences and canned hunts are legal, so support it. Poison pods are legal in Mississippi...why not here?.



The problem with this argument is that it involves arguably unethical ways to hunt animals that are less "fair" than others and which give the hunter an advantage. Try as you might, NO ONE can establish that a crossbow is "unfair" compared to the compound bow etc.
One of the anti's has already admitted that the only argument against crossbows is more people hunting which has nothing to do with the "fairness" or efficiency of the weapon. ALL the arguments on crossbows should be changed to an argument on whether more archery season hunters is good or bad rather than these specious attempts to demonize a weapon or those who use them


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> PMantle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doctariAFC said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, no restriction on use of crossbow during the rifle season? Anyone who owns a crossbow may choose to use the crossbow during rifle if they so desire?
> So that means traditional and compound archers have even more days to hunt with the weapon of there choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but that just results in a big "so what".
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> Come hunt with us. You can stay at my house. Like I've said before, I don't bow hunt on lands where gun hunts are going on. Have you looked at how long our gun season is? That leaves WMA's and NWR's for bowhunting during the long gun season, but even on those places, there are lots of gun days.
> 
> Permits? I have no permit. Why? I'm a lifetime license holder, as is Engelsmung, so we aren't counted. Neither are the older guys, who BTW, might even be using a crossbow legally.
> 
> Walk a little farther? That's freakin' insulting. You have no idea how far I walk. I walk to my limit of animal retrieval. if I have use of a cart, I walk even farther. NWR's have limits on how late you can exit the woods. It's warm here most hunts-leaving an animal overnight is rarely an option.


I would love to come hunt with you guys always up for a challenge. I'm just not sure which would be more challenging. The hunt or debate. I meant no disrespect or insult in my statement to walk a little farther. My point is simply if you want something different out of your hunt you have to hunt a little different.


----------



## Fireemt124

I just got off of the phone with the LDWF Enforcement division and recieved clarification on whether or not Crossbows can be used by anyone during the regular gun sesaon. They are not. Posting this in case anyone was thinking of going ahead and using one. They can only be used by approved handicap people or citizens over 60. Bottom line is that if you are not sure of the legality of a weapon or anything for that matter, check with an DWF enforcement officer before entering the woods.


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## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> cynic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PMantle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but that just results in a big "so what".
> 
> 
> 
> I see a misquote here. I did not state that trad or compound archers have more time through rifle. I only asked whether crossbow use during firearms/ rifle was permitted only on private lands or throughout.
> 
> Of course, this was probably a user error in typing the code, but I wanted to clarify what I had stated, which was separate from what another post had stated.
> 
> And, yes, you are correct, a big so what to the observation. ALthough not a very respectful reply, it does make the point that time in the woods with an implement of choice has no bearing on any argument. What the debate is all about is expansion of choice to hunters. I have yet to see any compelling evidence to deny the choice. Much opinion, much speculation, but no facts to back up the assertions.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## PMantle

Fireemt124 said:


> I just got off of the phone with the LDWF Enforcement division and recieved clarification on whether or not Crossbows can be used by anyone during the regular gun sesaon. They are not. Posting this in case anyone was thinking of going ahead and using one. They can only be used by approved handicap people or citizens over 60. Bottom line is that if you are not sure of the legality of a weapon or anything for that matter, check with an DWF enforcement officer before entering the woods.


Sorry, but that is not the law in the State of Louisiana. The guys at LDW may not know the law. I'll represent you for free on any ticket. You will win that battle.


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## progers

doctariAFC said:


> So, no restriction on use of crossbow during the rifle season? Anyone who owns a crossbow may choose to use the crossbow during rifle if they so desire? Is this strictly on private lands, or does this apply to all lands?
> 
> I can certainly relate to the private land access woes. Hunting across the Nation is facing this issue universally. Hunters are being forced to cough up big dollars to lease land use for what amounts to only a couple months out of the year, and then when you actually factor to the time in woods, you're paying big bucks for a couple weeks out of the year at the most. LA perspective, you must cough up whatever lease fee the land owner charges to hunt on average a total of 19 days per year. WHo can afford that except the very wealthy? In fact, this problem is the primary reason for hunter number declines. According to the reviews I have done on Hunting and Fishing, the largest budget item a hunter pays is for access to hunting. This includes license fees, land access through leasing and land purchase. This single cost category is around 40%. Its like telling a hunter you can have 5 arrows for each season, but, if you want to shoot those arrows you must give 2 of them to the woodskeeper as your price of admission, and you cannot get more arrows until next year. This cost is also the fastest growing budget item, with a growth rate from 1996 to 2001 of 300+%!!!!!!
> 
> Education is critical, and we as sportsmen must do a better job of educating as to the realities of conservation. But I digress and am going off topic.
> 
> Wow, see how beneficial this discussion is really becoming? The crossbow choice will not affect folks like you think it will, but, through this debate (a realtively civil one at that) we are finding out that all LA sportsmen have a common cause to improve conservation efforts and access so that we can do our jobs as conservationists.
> 
> Excellent information!




The answer is NO! ONLY handicap and seniors 60 and over can hunt ONLY deer during regulated deer seasons in LA. Nobody else can use one to hunt ANY type of game, period.

Mantle, you need to call the LDWF and turn them boys in that you hunt with for breaking the law. The are NOT allowed by law to use an xbow, as of now.


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## PMantle

The full statute for all to see. You can believe in Bigfoot if you want. that doesn't mean they exist. Subsection B is crystal clear.

A. (1) No person shall do any of the following:


(a) Hunt or shoot a deer or bear at any time with a firearm smaller than a .22 caliber centerfire, or a shotgun using a shell loaded with shot less than buckshot or rifled slug, or a bow with less than thirty pounds of pull, or other than arrows with metal broadhead points.


(b) Hunt or shoot deer while on a highway or road right of way, or stand, loiter, hunt, or shoot game quadrupeds or game birds while on a highway or road right of way that is maintained by the federal government, the state government, the state, or any parish, with a gun during open season.


(c) Take deer while deer are swimming or while the hunter is in a boat with motor attached in operating position; however, the restrictions in this Paragraph shall not apply to any person who has lost one or more limbs.


(d) Take or possess spotted fawn or parts thereof, except in accordance with the provisions of R.S. 56:105(A) and 171(A).


(2) Violation of any of the provisions of this Subsection, except Paragraph (1)(d), constitutes a class two violation. Violation of the provisions of Paragraph (1)(d) constitutes a class 5-A violation.


B. A licensee having a disability which totally and permanently prevents his using a long bow or other conventional archery equipment, as first certified by a medical doctor duly licensed to practice medicine in this state, and having an approved permit from the department, shall be permitted to take legal deer with a crossbow, and the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge, as well as in the special deer hunting season provided in R.S. 56:116.


C. (1) No person shall possess any of the following:


(a) Illegally taken deer or bear.


(b) Freshly killed deer or bear in the closed season.


(2) Violation of any of the provisions of this Subsection constitutes a class four violation.


D. No person shall hunt or take illegal deer or bear in the open season. Violation of this Subsection constitutes a class 5-A violation.


E. No person shall hunt or take deer or bear in the closed season. Violation of this Subsection constitutes a class six violation.


F. No person shall hunt or take deer from one-half hour after official sunset to one-half hour before official sunrise. Violation of this Subsection constitutes a class six violation and, in addition, the violator may lose all hunting privileges for a period of not more than five years.


G. Except in wildlife management areas, a leashed dog may be used to trail and retrieve wounded or unrecovered deer during legal hunting hours. Any dog used to trail or retrieve wounded or unrecovered deer shall have on a collar with the owner's name, address, and phone number. In addition, a leashed dog may be used to trail and retrieve unrecovered deer after legal hunting hours; however, no person accompanying a dog after legal hunting hours may carry a firearm of any sort.


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## ChadD

*facts*

I will not get back into the debate for crossbows...I made my position known at TNUSA, at which time I was lied about, defamed, and insulted. As such, and not to put myself in a postion that may cause me to weaken my case, I will stick with the facts that I registered to say, as I have seen lots of misinformation about LA deer numbers in this thread.....now that that is out of the way...

Deer harvests on DMAP lands are not unlimited. It is only the does harvested on DMAP lands that do not count against your season limit of 6. This was done because DMAP has lost around 30% of the it lands enrolled in the program over the past few years. As a result of this, and as a result of clubs seeing their efforts pay off in what was a drastic increase of doe harvests in the mid nineties, doe harvests have tapered off. In an effort to get harvests back up, the "no limit" on does for clubs in DMAP and LADT (which we had a hand in starting) was implemented.

The deer herd in LA is not drastically increasing.

Some areas of the state are in the 30 DPSM range, but generally those areas are related to agricultural areas. There were some areas that were even in the 100-120 DPSM range along the coastal areas of the state, but most of those lands have been brought under control.

LA has at least 7 (some claim 8) different habitat types. The 6 most predominant of which are:
Bottomland Hardwood
Mixed Pine Hardwood
Mixed Hardwood/Swamp
Pine Dominant Forests
Longleaf Pine/Upland Hardwoods
Swamp/Marsh/Spoilbank

LA has an "honor system" 6 deer limit. Of that limit, 6 can be does, 6 can be bucks, or any combination thereof. La currently has no management program in place to protect young bucks, or limit the taking of the bucks,which DOES NOT represent trophy hunting BTW, nor do they have any way of tracking what the majority of the lands in LA is producing. A tad over 2/3 of the huntable lands in LA are not on DMAP, and have no data coming from those areas whatsoever. Basically what we have is a "best guess" of what is being killed in LA each year.

LA has declining hunting numbers. That is indisputable. What is also indisputable is that all of our surrounding states that have gone to a QDM program have seen increases in their resident and non-resident hunting numbers. Major increases in non-resident....basically, our hunters are going other places to hunt, not neccissarily leaving the sport.

We had right at 220,000 licensed hunters this year. Out of that number, about 75% will kill 1 or no deer this year.

Many areas have increased the number of either sex days in LA. Not because we are not meeting the "quotas", because we have none, but moreso because of the loss of DMAP lands, the skewed buck to doe ratios, and the stretched out breeding season. The state is trying to balance the deer herd by allowing more opportunities for doe deer, because it is the "easiest" thing to do politically. We have certainly seen from other states that it is not always the best thing to do.

Approx. 75% of the buck harvest in LA is made up of yearlings statewide. The DMAP numbers do not quite reflect this, as most are on some type of management program, but it can be seen on the WMAs, and from random samples taken from surveys (again, a best guess, but from my experience, pretty accurate).

86% of the hunters in LA would like to see some form of management program in place in LA that would take pressure off of yearling bucks.

LA is still a VERY strong dog hunting state in that there are no regulations regarding their use, other than a ban on Department managed WMAs (different from state owned lands, on which they have a 60 day rifle season, no check stations, and no regulations on dogs).

As far as how things are set on DMAP lands, intitially, or ideally, a biologist comes out, cruises the property, and a browse survey is done to determine utilization on preferred versus non-preferred browse to determine the % of or above carrying capacity the herd is. From there, a recommendation is made as to how many does should be removed from the property. This is determined by acreage, historical numbers from other clubs in the area, etc. After that time, lactation rates and other herd health identifiers are used to adjust the amount of tags issued.

Land management on WMAs is fair...there is some selective logging practices done, and as far as habitat type goes, it varies widely from WMA to WMA.

Agriculture in LA is still pretty big business....however, many of the farmers these days are gearing towards easier to grow, higher yield crops such as sugar cane. Much of the corn and soybean fields that deer used to thrive in have been turned into cane, cotton, and rice fields for farming and crawfish production (of which I am very happy being as I am a wholesaler )

Estimated deer population is tracked by our LDWF, and I would imagine is done so from estimations based upon the DMAP lands in the certain areas of the state.

The LA politics that you all have come to learn about over the past several months is not just limited to our municipal governments. It is also deeply imbeded in our game and fish system. Some stories I could tell you would make you puke, but would rather leave that for someone else to discover...I have too many irons in the fire as it is to challenge lawsuits. My reason in saying this is only to point out why LA's numbers are declining....people are tired of the run around...they are tired "anything to make a buck"....they are tired of watching neighboring states pass us up in the natural resources department, and they are leaving. I foresee another issue which is just intended to bring in a small amount of additional revenue (if the department were to make an about face and support the crossbow) actually having the opposite conscequence in the grand scheme of things. There are many things to be sorted out in LA, and much bigger issues as you point out. This one issue will solve none of our problems, financially or in terms of recruitment.

The reason you see such low numbers on WMAs, I believe, and from what I have seen (and yes, I have been at this a little while) is because most of our WMAs are hunted very hard....the gun season, however small, offers hunters the ability to take 2 deer per day, one antlered and one antlerless (antlerless can be a button buck), for 3 days in a row (at which time the hunter will be at his 6 deer limit, or could go on). The archery season is 120 days long in essence, and there is a week or two of muzzleloader season thrown in the mix. On all of these days, you can harvest 2 deer per day when an either sex season in in progress. Deer numbers on WMAs are not growing, and are at stable levels, or declining slightly (the latter is just an opinion of mine based on harvest records and sightings by hunters who have been hunting the WMAs for decades). Now, declining numbers are not a bad thing certain times or places, but on an area that is below carrying capacity (which is where ideally a herd needs to be), it serves only to make for longer days afield and a loss of hunter participation due to many boring days perched in a tree. If you want to see a reason for declining bow hunter numbers on WMAs, you don't have to look very far.

Now, I know I have said that I wasn't to enter this debate, but only offer some facts to the mix, but one point keeps sticking out in my mind, especially since we are talking about WMAs, which are only regulated by state law, unlike clubs or private lands......This, about GA:
"archery deer harvest increased significantly by 44.3-percent"

Knowing what we do about our WMAs, can we afford for this to happen? Being as we have no other regulation on them other than state law, which is just to allow basically unrestricted harvest to the number of 6 deer, can we afford to have the harvest increase susbstantially? Keep in mind that GA has a 2 buck limit, one of which has to have 4 points on one side to be legal for harvest....should we take this to mean that the harvest in LA would go up even more than this? Will this lead to less hunting days? Will it lead to causing severe damage to the deer population on those areas? Can we afford to do this, if for nothing else, at this time?

I have lots and lots of more stuff I can pass on...just ask what you want, and I will try to keep it on topic as close as I can.


----------



## progers

Fireemt124 said:


> I just got off of the phone with the LDWF Enforcement division and recieved clarification on whether or not Crossbows can be used by anyone during the regular gun sesaon. They are not. Posting this in case anyone was thinking of going ahead and using one. They can only be used by approved handicap people or citizens over 60. Bottom line is that if you are not sure of the legality of a weapon or anything for that matter, check with an DWF enforcement officer before entering the woods.



That's funny Fireman. I just called again to revarify this and he told me that he just got off the phone with someone in your area that had the same question. :wink: 

The answer is NO, they can't use one. The man says that, the book says that and we have proven that. We need PROOF that you can use them then we may just call everything off and leave it like it is.

1000 xbow permits issue this year to handicap and seniors.


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## Fireemt124

Then why isn't that put out in the hunting regulations handbook. It's obvious you know a great deal about the law and I won't argue you seeing as I don't. But then somebody needs to get with the state and clarify this, but that is another topic on state issues.


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## progers

That was some good info Chad. Thanks for taking the time to look that up. 

I bet Chad can tell you that regular hunters can't hunt with an xbow in LA.


Yes, you were correct about the increase of 44%. That is 44% of the existing number that was already hunting with archery equipment. That is not 44% of hunting population. Just wanted to be clear on that.




Here is Georgia in 02' - 03' season:

The following is data from the state of Georgia on the first two season where crossbows were legal. It appears from this data that the crossbow has made a positive impact on the number of hunters and the desired goal of reducing the deer herd population. 


Deer Harvest Summary for 2002-2003 

Archery Harvest (including crossbow)* 

Thirty-five percent (35%) of deer hunters hunted with archery equipment. Twenty-four percent (24%) of these were successful in harvesting a deer. It took the average archery deer hunter about 30 days to harvest a deer and the average archery deer hunter spent 12 days hunting deer. Does made up 83% of the archery deer harvest. The table below provides additional information. 

Archery Deer Hunters - 97,392 

Archery Buck Harvest - 6,300 

Archery Doe Harvest - 31,500 

Total Archery Harvest - 37,800 

Average Deer/Hunter - 0.4 

* Number of hunters using a crossbow - 17,322 

Crossbow harvest - 4,429 (12% of archery harvest; 1% of total harvest) 


Deer Harvest Summary for 2003-2004 

Archery Harvest (including crossbow)* 

Almost thirty-seven percent (37%) of deer hunters hunted with archery equipment. Twenty-

nine percent (29%) of these were successful in harvesting a deer. It took the average archery deer hunter about 24 days to harvest a deer and the average archery deer hunter spent 13 days hunting deer. Does made up about 74% of the archery deer harvest. The table below provides additional information. 

Archery Deer Hunters - 111,682 (+14,290 from 2002-2003 ) 

Archery Buck Harvest - 15,300 (+9,000 from 2002-2003) 

Archery Doe Harvest - 42,300 (+10,800 from 2002-2003) 

Total Archery Harvest - 57,600 (+19,800 from 2002-2003) 

Average Deer/Hunter - 0.5 (+.1 from 2002-2003 ) 

* Number of hunters using a crossbow - 22,136 (+4,814 from 2002-2003) 

Crossbow harvest - 10,313 (22% of archery harvest; 3% of total harvest) (+5,884 from 2002-2003)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

****It looks like Georgia has found a winner in crossbows...I received this information from the Senior Wildlife Biologist in Georgia... 

"I have just completed looking at Georgia's 2003-2004 hunter survey results. Because of the interest in crossbow hunting, we decided to take a closer look at crossbow harvest. I have included excerpts from the annual report below. 

The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year that crossbows were legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia. Previously, only those hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows. 

The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest during 2003-2004 increased by 55.3% and 168.0% respectively over 2002-2003. 

To put these numbers more in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters for 2003-2004. Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of the 2003-2004 total Georgia deer harvest. 

Thirteen point five percent (13.5%) of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system. 

Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. 

To estimate the real impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we must make several assumptions. The first is that new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve to crossbow. The success rate for crossbows (.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (.51 deer/hunter). 

Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds and it is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow. 

There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004. The raw estimates give us about 9,300 additional archers. A large part of this increase can be attributed to the 31.1% of crossbow hunters (6,884) who indicated they were new to archery hunting. 

Additionally, age structure data indicates an influx of older hunters into the crossbow hunter ranks. A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows. 

If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the .49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive for both of these groups, then 4,557 additional deer would be attributed to additional archery (crossbow) hunters. The 95% confidence interval for total harvest is plus or minus 7,818 deer. These data and assumptions suggest that any additional harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level. 

During 2002-2003 there was a small tendency for crossbow hunters to be older than the general hunter population. That trend continues for 2003-2004, particularly in age classes over fifty years old. 

Thirty four point six percent (34.6%) of the general hunter population is over 50 years old while forty three percent (43.0%) of crossbow hunters are over 50 years old. Older age groups show greater crossbow use for both seasons crossbows have been legal, however there also was an increase in crossbow selectivity this year by the 25-29 year age group. The average age for the general hunting population is 43.8 years. The average age for crossbow hunters is 45.3 years. 

This is a summary of our results. A complete copy of the final report will be available soon. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need any additional information." Nick Nicholson/Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist

http://www.horizontalbowhunter.com/news/news.asp?ID=80


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## Fireemt124

Good post Chad. I agree with you 100 % that Management is needed in this state. I just believe the crossbow would be just as effective as any in this cause. The misinformation is there because there is just not an effective way to track numbers in La. The numbers reason is purely speculative because as mentioned, the only true numbers come from the WMA's and what information is gathered from DMAP info. And we all know those numbers can be skewed because that "good ole boy" takes the chance and does not check that deer because he is close to his 6 deer limit. And we all know that has happened in some form or another. (Not a valid reason, just had to throw that in there  ). I guess my question is, if the crossbow will not help financially or in recruitment, will it hurt it?

P.S. Hope the Crawfish are ok, didnt sound too good on the news the other night


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## doctariAFC

Excellent information provided Chad! Phenomenal post. 

Ok, we have quite a bit of info to start chewing on. FACTS that make the "world go round" in Louisiana. I would recommend that this information gets compiled into a singular document, and show the trends across a period of time, to see hunter participation and deer numbers/ harvests estimates in each year period to better get a handle of the dynamics in one table or chart.

In terms of hunting participation, we should provide a total hunter snapshot with trend, then also a breakdown of specialized implement licenses/ participants as well. We can line up demographics using USF&W survey information so we can best identify what age groups are bleeding most.

It is interesting, Chad, that you mention the number of LA hunters opting to hunt in other areas/ states versus their own home state. I noticed this to be true, but was scratching my head and doubting the numbers from USF&W when I was examining the resident Louisiana Hunter participation and spending in all areas, vs res and non res hunting participation and SPENDING in LA. In 2001, LA hunters spent @ $78 MILLION collectively in OTHER STATES for hunting. Comparatively, non-res hunters spent only $20 MILLION on hunting in LA. Based on this info, LA hunters have a serious "trade deficit" in regards to hunting. You info has made this info make sense to me now. Thank you very much!


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## progers

QDM Map Guide for deer populations 

http://www.i-maps.com/Qdma/frame/de...=0&NID=0&cmd=map&TL=100000&GL=010100&MF=11000


QDM Map Guide for deer populations in LA.

http://www.i-maps.com/Qdma/frame/de...=0&NID=0&cmd=map&TL=100000&GL=010100&MF=11000



Population density of deer in LA:
----------------------------------
As you will see, almost the entire state is in the 30 - 45 deer per sq. mile population.

1/4th of the state is 45+ deer per sq. mile 

a very small section is below the 15 per sq. mile mark.

Most of this will be effected by the huricane this past year around the mouth of the Mississippi.


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## Engelsmung

doctariAFC said:


> In 2001, LA hunters spent @ $78 MILLION collectively in OTHER STATES for hunting. Comparatively, non-res hunters spent only $20 MILLION on hunting in LA. Based on this info, LA hunters have a serious "trade deficit" in regards to hunting. !


Lots of folks go out of state b/c the public deer hunting sucks, and the leases are so expensive. I have several friends that go to Iowa, Missouri or Ohio, and rave about how great it is up there. The reality is that allowing unlimited crossbow hunting during bowseason would just make it harder for the regular bowhunters to harvest, and it's already too difficult. The muzzleloaders got several weeks extra, and the current technology makes them little different from rifles, which again makes bow success more difficult to obtain. 

Of course with all statistics, those numbers aren't just deer hunters, or bowhunters. Lots of La folks go to Canada to hunt waterfowl, and a fair number go West for elk. However, there is a good percentage of La people who have leases in Mississippi.


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## progers

*LA farms and land info...*

Louisiana is richly endowed with such nonrenewable minerals as oil, natural gas, sulfur, and salt. In addition to mining, the state has flourishing agricultural, lumbering, and fishing industries. These activities provide the basis for much of the manufacturing in Louisiana.


3 subregions of LA:
---------------------
Louisiana lies wholly within the gulf portion of the Coastal Plain, which is one of the principal natural regions, or physiographic provinces, of the United States. The Gulf Coastal Plain can be divided into three subregions, or sections, all of which lie partly within Louisiana. They are, from east to west, the East Gulf Coastal Plain, the Mississippi Alluvial Plain, and the West Gulf Coastal Plain.



1. The Mississippi Alluvial Plain in Louisiana extends from the Louisiana-Arkansas border in the north to the Gulf of Mexico in the south and parallels the main channel of the Mississippi River. In Louisiana the region is commonly referred to as “the Delta,” a term that, in local usage, is not confined to the delta at the mouth of the Mississippi River. 

Along the banks of the Mississippi and other rivers are natural levees, which have been built up from river silts deposited by floods. The levees rise as much as 4.5 m (15 ft) above the general level of the surrounding plain, although most are about 2 to 3 m (about 6 to 10 ft) high. The levees, some of which are very wide, include some of the state’s best farmland.


2. The West Gulf Coastal Plain, west of the Mississippi Alluvial Plain, occupies the western half of Louisiana. Hilly regions, often with steep bluffs 90 m (300 ft) high, mark the transitional zone between this region and the Mississippi Alluvial Plain. The northern and north central areas of this region are primarily areas of rolling hill country, much of it still heavily forested. 

The most prominent features of the hill country include Driskill Mountain and the Kisatchie Hills. Farther south are extensive areas of prairie, or grassland, which lie mainly along the southeastern bank of the middle course of the Calcasieu River. In the southern part of the West Gulf Coastal Plain, marshlands rim the coast and extend inland as much as 30 km (20 mi).


3. The East Gulf Coastal Plain, a small area east of the Mississippi, is similar to its counterpart in western Louisiana. Steep bluffs as much as 90 m (300 ft) above sea level occur in the Tunica Hills of West Feliciana Parish. The rest of the region is lower in elevation with numerous steep bluffs, clear springs, pine forests, and deep ravines.


CLIMATE:
The climate of all the major regions of Louisiana is characterized by short mild winters and long, hot, and generally humid summers. Average January temperatures range from less than 8°C (46°F) in northwestern Louisiana to more than 13°C (55°F) in the southeastern delta country. Temperatures in the -20°s C (below 0°F) have been recorded, but prolonged periods of cold weather are extremely rare.

GROWING SEASON:
Throughout most of Louisiana the growing season, or period from the last major frost in spring to the first major frost in fall, is more than 210 days. In most of the state it varies in length from 210 up to 260 days, but along the lower Mississippi as many as 350 days may be frost free. In some decades there have been entire winters during which damaging frosts have not occurred in farming areas in the southernmost sections of the state.

PLANT LIFE:
Forest land occupies 50 percent of the total land area of Louisiana. Trees once covered nearly all of Louisiana, but since the late 18th, and especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, large areas have been cleared for agriculture and other uses. Much of the forest land is covered by second-growth or third-growth timber.


WILDLIFE:
The southern marshes and swamps of Louisiana are the home of a wide variety of animals. White-tailed deer are abundant throughout the state. A few black bears remain in the more remote parts of the swamps; muskrat, mink, and raccoon are also found there. Among the scarce small mammals are the wildcat, gray fox, beaver, otter, and weasel. Common small mammals include the opossum, cottontail, marsh rabbit, and gray squirrel.

CONSERVATION:
Soil erosion is a problem in Louisiana only in the hilly northwest, but continuous cotton cultivation has resulted in a general reduction in soil fertility throughout the state. Where serious soil erosion has occurred, the land has been taken out of cultivation and converted to pastureland or forest land. In less severely eroded areas, contour plowing, strip-cropping, and other soil conservation practices are used to help reduce runoff. To restore soil fertility, crop rotation has replaced continuous cotton cropping.

It is estimated that almost 2 million hectares (5 million acres) of land in Louisiana was reforested from the mid-1940s to the mid-1990s. Most of the new trees have been planted on privately owned commercial forest lands. In addition, some areas of public land have also been reforested.

AGRICULTURE:
Farmland occupies 3.2 million hectares (7.9 million acres), or 30 percent of the total area of Louisiana. Crops are raised on 65 percent of all farmland in the state. Most of the remaining farmland is used for pasture.

Crops accounted for 65 percent of farm income in Louisiana in 2003. Cotton, sugarcane, soybeans, rice, and corn are the most important crops and were the top agricultural products overall in 1996, according to cash value. Soybeans for a time was the leading crop harvested but its production has recently declined. Livestock and livestock products accounted for 35 percent of all farm income in 2003. Poultry, broilers (young chickens used for meat), and eggs are the most economically important livestock.

There were 27,200 farms in the state in 2004, averaging 117 hectares (289 acres) in size. The largest farms are the highly mechanized farms located in the Mississippi Alluvial Plain and in the sugar- and rice-producing areas of the West Gulf Coastal Plain.

CROPS:
The five leading crops are cotton, sugarcane, soybeans, rice, and corn. In 1997 Louisiana ranked sixth in the United States in production of cotton, second in sugarcane (behind Florida), and third in the production of rice (behind Arkansas and California). Cotton is grown primarily on the fertile bottomlands of the Mississippi and Red river valleys, and sugarcane chiefly on the bottomlands of the Mississippi Alluvial Plain south of Baton Rouge and west of New Orleans. The raising of soybeans, used mostly as livestock feed, increased rapidly from the early 1960s to become the most important crop in the 1970s and early 1980s but has since declined. Rice is grown on the prairie sections east of Lake Charles, in the West Gulf Coastal Plain. Another important crop is corn, which is used both for human consumption and as animal feed.


and the info goes on and on: 
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560280_1/Louisiana.html


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## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> Lots of folks go out of state b/c the public deer hunting sucks, and the leases are so expensive. I have several friends that go to Iowa, Missouri or Ohio, and rave about how great it is up there. The reality is that allowing unlimited crossbow hunting during bowseason would just make it harder for the regular bowhunters to harvest, and it's already too difficult. The muzzleloaders got several weeks extra, and the current technology makes them little different from rifles, which again makes bow success more difficult to obtain.
> 
> Of course with all statistics, those numbers aren't just deer hunters, or bowhunters. Lots of La folks go to Canada to hunt waterfowl, and a fair number go West for elk. However, there is a good percentage of La people who have leases in Mississippi.


I completely understand this, and I agree with you in many regards. However, I do not think the crossbow will make any ppositive or negative impact on this condition in LA. Once we get a handle on participation trends, getting the detail of ages of hunters, and who is leaving the sport or not entering the sport nailed down, and we examine the deer population trends (albeit guesses upon guesses) we will have some solid facts to go by in this area.

In terms of crossbows, I am starting to believe that the crossbow is not as big a deal, or is the real issue for concern here. I believe the real reason for concerns is public ACCESS to good hunting lands. We still need to nail down what crossbow addition has done to increase hunters in the woods in other states, as to draw a projection for LA, but, I would hazard a guess that if LA could increase publically accessible lands (or "encourage" private landowners to allow more access to their lands, at little or no out of hunter pocket expense) by say 25% to 50%, the crossbow issue would for the ost part become a non-issue. Heck, you guys are already co-existing with crossbows. I am really believing now that the root is actually ACCESS.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Lots of folks go out of state b/c the public deer hunting sucks, and the leases are so expensive. I have several friends that go to Iowa, Missouri or Ohio, and rave about how great it is up there. The reality is that allowing unlimited crossbow hunting during bowseason would just make it harder for the regular bowhunters to harvest, and it's already too difficult. The muzzleloaders got several weeks extra, and the current technology makes them little different from rifles, which again makes bow success more difficult to obtain.
> 
> Of course with all statistics, those numbers aren't just deer hunters, or bowhunters. Lots of La folks go to Canada to hunt waterfowl, and a fair number go West for elk. However, there is a good percentage of La people who have leases in Mississippi.



What yall are referring to as "out of state hunters" are hunters that are going out of state to hunt TROPHIES. I think that this needs to be factored in. The majority who leaves the state to hunt aren't doing it because they can't put meat in the freezer or see any deer. They do it because of TROPHY BUCKS.

Why would your friend go to Iowa or Ohio just to kill a deer if it wasn't a trophy. Do they go up there and shoot doe?


----------



## ChadD

*not quite*

progers, I didn't look any of that up...Like I said, I have been at this a while. You won't find much or any of that stuff anywhere on the web... And on the QDMA map, that map was put out in 1999 if I am remembering right...either 98 or 99...not exactly sure, but anyway, it was made using population "estimates", again, by our LDWF (and other states agencies). You will notice extreme variances in it from state to state, simply because each state has different ways they estimate deer numbers. Some areas/states, for example, are known to have much higher densities than others, but are shown as having lesser population on the map. We had discussed this when the map came out, but knew that even with it being somewhat inaccurate, it was the best thing that could have been put together at that time. I've probably given away a couple hundred of those things....

On the 44%, that was the increase in the bow harvest, not the increase in hunters...archery hunters increased by 11%...the deer harvest increased by 44% with archery equipment. In other words, for example, 10,000 deer were killed before, and with crossbows, 14,400 were killed afterwards during archery season.

GA has a 2 buck, 10 doe limit. One of the bucks has to have 4 points on one side to be considered legal for harvest. The 83% antlerless harvest would be representative of that. LA is nearer 50/50.

When you talked to Kent, did he also tell you that the increase in hunter numbers were statewide in all catagories as well? The trend was up regardless of the crossbow due to the program that had been put in in 2002-2003. For example, all hunters numbers looked like this:
Licensed resident hunters were up 5.8% to 243,215
Out of state hunters were up 74.2% to 30,888
Total hunter numbers were up 8.7% 

Gun hunters were up 7%
Muzzleloader hunters were up 7.3%

Gun harvest was up 19%
Archery harvest was up 52%

Infer from those numbers what you will...as I said, not to debate anything....

"It is interesting, Chad, that you mention the number of LA hunters opting to hunt in other areas/ states versus their own home state. I noticed this to be true, but was scratching my head and doubting the numbers from USF&W when I was examining the resident Louisiana Hunter participation and spending in all areas, vs res and non res hunting participation and SPENDING in LA. In 2001, LA hunters spent @ $78 MILLION collectively in OTHER STATES for hunting. Comparatively, non-res hunters spent only $20 MILLION on hunting in LA. Based on this info, LA hunters have a serious "trade deficit" in regards to hunting."

Doc, this is a growing problem in LA. People are leaving the state for greener pastures....Now, while one may could argue that people are going other places to use a crossbow, all you have to do is look at talk forums and talk to hunters in the state to see why they are leaving....they simply want the opportunity to harvest better deer. Having a more effective tool to take deer with will not help in this catagory....especially when you have an unrestricted harvest program.


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## Jim C

Chad stated: Having a more effective tool to take deer with will not help in this catagory....especially when you have an unrestricted harvest program.

________________
here is the problem-is there any objective evidence you can provide to me that proves that a crossbow is a more effective tool than a modern compound bow? Easier to use is not the same thing as more effective

NO EVIDENCE I have ever seen proves a crossbow more effective than a compound.


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## ChadD

*access*

LA has quite a bit of access to public lands. there are numerous WMAs in LA, as well as lots of "State lands" that are owned (or "operated") by the state land office, in addition to Forest Service land (kisatchie). WMAs are lands in the state, like other states, that are owned and managed by the LDWF. They set seasons and regulations specific to each WMA. State lands are regulated under the same rules as private lands in the Parish that they are in. For example, in the Parish I hunt in primarily, Iberville, there is just over 27,000 acres of state lands. It has the same season as we do on private leased land in the parish. Anyone can hunt it at any time without check stations or permits. There are many hundreds of thousands of acres of this type of land throughout LA.

LA has 46 WMAs, tons of state land tracts, as well as the Kisatchie National Forest....public hunting opportunities in LA are numerous...


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## progers

Quote:

"It is interesting, Chad, that you mention the number of LA hunters opting to hunt in other areas/ states versus their own home state. I noticed this to be true, but was scratching my head and doubting the numbers from USF&W when I was examining the resident Louisiana Hunter participation and spending in all areas, vs res and non res hunting participation and SPENDING in LA. In 2001, LA hunters spent @ $78 MILLION collectively in OTHER STATES for hunting. Comparatively, non-res hunters spent only $20 MILLION on hunting in LA. Based on this info, LA hunters have a serious "trade deficit" in regards to hunting."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the $78 MILLION being spent on? Why are they going out of state to hunt? 

It is proven we have the deer population here to support the hunters. Are they spending their money out of state on equipment, other hunting rather than deer (such as ducks, elk, mulies) or is trophy whitetails on the agenda, also?


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## progers

ChadD said:


> LA has quite a bit of access to public lands. there are numerous WMAs in LA, as well as lots of "State lands" that are owned (or "operated") by the state land office, in addition to Forest Service land (kisatchie). WMAs are lands in the state, like other states, that are owned and managed by the LDWF. They set seasons and regulations specific to each WMA. State lands are regulated under the same rules as private lands in the Parish that they are in. For example, in the Parish I hunt in primarily, Iberville, there is just over 27,000 acres of state lands. It has the same season as we do on private leased land in the parish. Anyone can hunt it at any time without check stations or permits. There are many hundreds of thousands of acres of this type of land throughout LA.
> 
> LA has 46 WMAs, tons of state land tracts, as well as the Kisatchie National Forest....public hunting opportunities in LA are numerous...
> 
> I see it as being a detrimental factor in LA (the allowance of crossbows) simply because of the hunting publics perception of LA management, among other things....do nothing productive, but anything to make a buck.....



So, does this mean there is plenty of public land to hunt in LA? 

I wonder where we can get the numbers for acres that are leased in LA?



Once again Chad, great info!


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## ChadD

*depends on who you ask*

IMO, there is plenty of public land to hunt in LA. NOt always good public land to hunt on, but I think it is more related to over hunting than poor property...

You would have to call every landowner in the state to get the answer to that question...anything other than that would just be poorly speculative...


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## progers

ChadD said:


> IMO, there is plenty of public land to hunt in LA. NOt always good public land to hunt on, but I think it is more related to over hunting than poor property...
> 
> You would have to call every landowner in the state to get the answer to that question...anything other than that would just be poorly speculative...



DMAP and Timber Companies will cover a great proportion of these numbers, should't it?


As far as the QDM map, you would agree that it is close then, even if it is not exactly correct?


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## progers

progers said:


> Quote:
> 
> "It is interesting, Chad, that you mention the number of LA hunters opting to hunt in other areas/ states versus their own home state. I noticed this to be true, but was scratching my head and doubting the numbers from USF&W when I was examining the resident Louisiana Hunter participation and spending in all areas, vs res and non res hunting participation and SPENDING in LA. In 2001, LA hunters spent @ $78 MILLION collectively in OTHER STATES for hunting. Comparatively, non-res hunters spent only $20 MILLION on hunting in LA. Based on this info, LA hunters have a serious "trade deficit" in regards to hunting."
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> What is the $78 MILLION being spent on? Why are they going out of state to hunt?
> 
> It is proven we have the deer population here to support the hunters. Are they spending their money out of state on equipment, other hunting rather than deer (such as ducks, elk, mulies) or is trophy whitetails on the agenda, also?



Chad, are hunters going out of state to hunt trophy whitetails? Is that why the $78MIL # is so high? Paying the big bucks for the big bucks?

I mean, I know I was impressed when I got a 120 class buck. I sure would like a 160 on the wall! :beer:


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## doctariAFC

Spending of LA hunters on out of state hunting trips. I did not perform the complete analysis, only looked at the top line figures, and I do not have that document handy (on my other computer right now), but this expenditure includes everything from travel and lodging expenses, fuel costs, food, guide fees, ammo and gear, license fees and other fees associated with out of state hunting. 

Ditto goes for non-res hunters in LA - they are spending the $19 MIL on the same categories, but I do not have the exact breakdown at my finger tips.


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## Engelsmung

*out of state*

I'd wager the vast majority of out of state hunters come to La to hunt waterfowl. We used to be the #1 state for that, and even now, with the numbers down, La is one of the top waterfowling destinations. There are a few trophy whitetail operations along the Mississippi River, but if you can afford that, you probably have a lease.

Public lands are overhunted for deer, and the success rate demonstrates that. You're not going to change the access problem either. Why would a landowner forego the ability to make money off his land between timber cuts? Further, non-corporate owners need money, and want to avoid lawsuits and strangers trashing up their land. The access problem won't be solved here, but rather exported to the rest of you across the country. Get ready.


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## PMantle

I'm not sure access is the right word. Competition for archery lands is the problem from my perspective. Do any of you supporters disagree that allowing the use of crossbows in the archery only season will lead to more hunters using those seasons? Part of my opposition to crossbows is my assumption that hunters who now only gun hunt will begin to use the archery only season if allowed to use a cross bow. If I am wrong, so be it, but that is my belief. 

That season(archery only) is currently open to those people the same as it is open to me. They choose not to use it. Not my or your problem. If it were simply a matter of current archers choosing a crossbow over a compound, my opposition would be soft, but likely still present. I just don't believe this will be the reality.


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## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> I'm not sure access is the right word. Competition for archery lands is the problem from my perspective. Do any of you supporters disagree that allowing the use of crossbows in the archery only season will lead to more hunters using those seasons? Part of my opposition to crossbows is my assumption that hunters who now only gun hunt will begin to use the archery only season if allowed to use a cross bow. If I am wrong, so be it, but that is my belief.
> 
> That season(archery only) is currently open to those people the same as it is open to me. They choose not to use it. Not my or your problem. If it were simply a matter of current archers choosing a crossbow over a compound, my opposition would be soft, but likely still present. I just don't believe this will be the reality.


This is a fair concern, PMantle. This is the reason why I made the demand that we get the facts and really work together to understand all the elements surrounding the potential for crossbow hunting, as a choice for all, in Louisiana. 

However, in the process, what we are also doing is closing a rift between vertical bowhunters and non bowhunters, which is extremely important to our overall need to protect our heritage and the wildlife.

If we can focus on the facts, and all get our minds around these facts, I think we will all benefit.

Thanks much!


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## PMantle

doc,

What is your position on the draw lock for use on compound bows?


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## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> doc,
> 
> What is your position on the draw lock for use on compound bows?


Well, this is something that is currently in use for handicapped hunters in NYS, and is a device that is widely promoted for disabled hunters by NYB. Since I have never used one, I have no practical experience with its operation and how it affects the "traditional" vertical bow archery form for proper and accurate, consistent shooting. 

In terms of its use, for folks that currently use a compound bow, who are able to draw the bow and shoot consistently, I would question why they would want to use such as device. Seems to me that it would be another thing to get used to as it could alter form and the like. However, if these were made legal, although I would personally never use one (I shoot an Oneida Eagle, with 80% letoff, 64# draw) I wouldn't begrudge someone from using it. Archery has diverged so far from its original roots of self bows and no sights, finger release to the mechanical releases, compound leverage, light-gathering sights and laser range finders that this additional piece of equipment is really somewhat of a non issue. I have more of a problem with hunters using laser range finders and scopes on bows (including crossbows) than I do with a draw-loc. I have been assailed on the crossbow regarding the advantage a hunter would receive by eliminating the "draw cycle". Of course, one fails to recognize that the draw cycle with a vertical bow is a virtual non-issue when hunting 20 feet up in a tree (I am a ground hunter, strictly.)

Here's the thing. Regarding the hunting skills and the other elements that some would state give hunters an unfair advantage is this. You, as a hunter, can choose whatever legal implement you may wish to choose. Other implements, just like has happened in the past, will be added in the future, I have no doubt. Those of us who go "primitive" are gaining more proficiency, and the rewards from this, personally, are greater for me than going ultra high-tech. If I had to go back to a stick bow tomorrow, or use a primitive black powder tomorrow, no issues. I use them already. But I do enjoy the challenge of different choices. Again, as hunters, we understand what implements are the best for us to use under specific circumstances. Having those choices are a part of freedom, and even with a draw-loc, so long as the hunter is ethical, skilled and doesn't attempt to stretch the line of ethics, have at it. But I do not promote the use of them actively. The compound bow as it is and will be in the future an adequate vertical bow.

Hope that answers the question.


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## Engelsmung

PMantle said:


> That season(archery only) is currently open to those people the same as it is open to me. They choose not to use it.


There is your answer. We have a very lengthy gun season, further broadened by a "primitive" weapon season, where high tech muzzleloaders that shoot as accurately as rifles get more days. Anyone who currently wants more than that can get a bow, traditional, recurve or compound. Many folks who love to hunt do just that, and have bows, muzzleloaders and rifles, and hunt with whatever the season allows. The whole point of this thread is the objection to allowing crossbows into the bow only season, unless you're over 65 or handicapped.


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## Engelsmung

doctariAFC said:


> Of course, one fails to recognize that the draw cycle with a vertical bow is a virtual non-issue when hunting 20 feet up in a tree (I am a ground hunter, strictly.).


Deer that have been hunted for years from trees stands do tend to look up. I've been busted many a time, though I have killed by remaining completely still while the deer stares at me, until it looks elsewhere. Stuck one this year like that. The draw cycle is a very important issue.


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## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> There is your answer. We have a very lengthy gun season, further broadened by a "primitive" weapon season, where high tech muzzleloaders that shoot as accurately as rifles get more days. Anyone who currently wants more than that can get a bow, traditional, recurve or compound. Many folks who love to hunt do just that, and have bows, muzzleloaders and rifles, and hunt with whatever the season allows. The whole point of this thread is the objection to allowing crossbows into the bow only season, unless you're over 65 or handicapped.


Thought the law said over 60. Nevermind.

The debate is whether to afford the crossbow choice to all hunters. I think the next step in this process, after we've digested the harvest rates, deer herd health and hunter participation trends is to examine data from other states, such as Georgia, Virginia, Ohio, and the others who allow unrestricted use of the crossbow, take a hard, real look at it, and make some projections as it would apply to Louisiana and the hunters in this fine State.

Thus far we are getting some quality information. Facts on the table to number crunch. I know people are going to tell me it isn't about the numbers, as the numbers don't tell the whole story. I would answer, you're right, they do not account for law breaking poachers that can certainly throw the numbers into the terlet. However, since deer management goals set set using NUMBERS, and this has been successful, I think I am comfortable with the numbers game, so long as the numbers used are consistent and fairly accurate (meaning, estimates are glorified guesses, but if we all can agree to use the same guess, then you have a decent starting point).

In fact, how does a wildlife biologist determine doe harvest goals, in terms of numbers of permits to issue? Numbers of deer per sq mile, a desire to see harvest of deer per sq mile, and the success ratio of hunters to know approximately how many permits must be issued to achieve the desired harvest goal. We ain't talking about rocket science here, guys.

BTW, I have a degree in Marine Science Biology, so, yes I do have a biology background...


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## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> Deer that have been hunted for years from trees stands do tend to look up. I've been busted many a time, though I have killed by remaining completely still while the deer stares at me, until it looks elsewhere. Stuck one this year like that. The draw cycle is a very important issue.



People who have no experience hunting with xbows seem to assume that somehow the xbow is magically aimed at the deer with no movement

If the deer is looking up at you and you would bet "busted" drawing your compound bow you will also get "busted" raising and aiming that crossbow.

I am confused-are you guys against xbows because you don't want anyone else bowhunting (which really is not an argument against the bow itself) or do you labour under the mistaken belief that a crossbow is a more efficient weapon than a compound? I note my question as to what evidence one poster had to support his position that a crossbow is a more efficient (not the same as easier to use) weapon than a compound bow. That went unanswered


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## PMantle

Jim C said:


> People who have no experience hunting with xbows seem to assume that somehow the xbow is magically aimed at the deer with no movement
> 
> If the deer is looking up at you and you would bet "busted" drawing your compound bow you will also get "busted" raising and aiming that crossbow.


Uhm, both weapons have to be aimed. Only one of them has to be drawn.


----------



## ChadD

*Jim*



Jim C said:


> Chad stated: Having a more effective tool to take deer with will not help in this catagory....especially when you have an unrestricted harvest program.
> 
> ________________
> here is the problem-is there any objective evidence you can provide to me that proves that a crossbow is a more effective tool than a modern compound bow? Easier to use is not the same thing as more effective
> 
> NO EVIDENCE I have ever seen proves a crossbow more effective than a compound.


I guess the short answer to that is no Jim. I really haven't done much research on crossbows, and before a couple weeks ago, hadn't ever spoke of it in this sense as it relates to discussing pros and cons. All I have to go by is what I have experienced personally from shooting one, and from hunting buddies/acquaintances of mine (neither proponents nor opponents of xbows) who have used them for hunting. It is my opinion only that after shooting them a few times, and seeing shots made on deer with them that they are far superior to what I and my wife shoot....but I am shooting a 15 year old bear whitetail II, though.

However, in the big picture, what I was also trying to get at as well was that the harvest numbers will go up a pretty fair amount with the xbow being in archery season, as many more hunters will be in the woods with them. There is substantial objective evidence as it relates to that.


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## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Uhm, both weapons have to be aimed. Only one of them has to be drawn.



really? so I say the magic words and my crossbow draws itself? Did you know that most competent archers can HOLD a fully drawn compound on target LONGER than they can hold a crossbow? Now I realize in some cases you can rest a crossbow but for most of us who hunt in tree stands you can't. The movement is equivalent. The harvest rates are equivalent. The range is equivalent and the learning curve is very similar. Again, are you guys upset about more people being able to bowhunt or do you labour under the mistake that a crossbow gives the guy a mile away from you an advantage over your 80% letoff trigger fired compound bow?


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## Jim C

ChadD said:


> However, in the big picture, what I was also trying to get at as well was that the harvest numbers will go up a pretty fair amount with the xbow being in archery season, as many more hunters will be in the woods with them. There is substantial objective evidence as it relates to that.


So again my point holds true-we should DEBATE whether more bowhunters or LESS bowhunters is GOOD or bad rather than trying to demonize a bow or those who choose to use it. If your opposition is based on a desire to limit the number of bowhunters then you would should have opposed the introduction of higher and higher letoff compounds and mechanical releases as well. The problem is, most of the guys now opposing xbows are using most of the compound gadgets and have to draw the line right past their own tackle


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## ChadD

*progers*



progers said:


> DMAP and Timber Companies will cover a great proportion of these numbers, should't it?
> 
> 
> As far as the QDM map, you would agree that it is close then, even if it is not exactly correct?



DMAP really wouldn't take in very much of this number...DMAP lands only make up less than 1/3 of the huntable lands in the state.....Timber companies will make up a pretty good portion, but with lands being divided as it is in the state, there are more and more smaller landowners making up a pretty good chunk of it as well...You can probably get a good estimate, but you won't be able to get a truly accurate number...

On the QDM map, I would say that at the time it was printed,it was likely to be somewhat accurate...however, the data that was gathered to make it was done nearly 10 years ago....alot has changed in the state since then....a few outbreaks of blue tongue, storms, increased doe days, substantial DMAP doe harvest before the drop down in 2002, etc. Keep in mind as well that it is difficult to make it accurate when you can in essence have 2 seperate deer herds with different densities just a couple miles apart due to agriculture, poor habitat, hunting pressure, etc.


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## doctariAFC

ChadD said:


> However, in the big picture, what I was also trying to get at as well was that the harvest numbers will go up a pretty fair amount with the xbow being in archery season, as many more hunters will be in the woods with them. There is substantial objective evidence as it relates to that.


Which underscores the need to really understand the current state of Louisiana's deer herd, growth, stable or declining, coupled with harvest rates from hunters (same three indicators being examined) and also understand teh declining hunter numbers, and what is this doing to deer management plans.

To give you a comparison, in NYS, we HAD nearly 665,000 Deer hunter in NYS (2001). Now, in 2006, we have less than 600,000 deer hunters. Spans across all segments. Deer harvest numbers are down (by hunters) and hunters are complaining about the liberal doe tag issuances that were done to attempt to get the populations reduced. Hunters are being led to believe that the deer were dropping on account of doe tags issued to hunters. BALONEY! At the same time, NYS liberalized the nuisance deer permit program (DMAP) which is less restrictive in terms of acreage (50 acres vs 500 in LA), but these are provided to the Land Owners, clubs do not get these, nor can someone leasing land get these. The DMAP program provides an extended period of time, if my memory serves, beyond the hunting seasons for landowners to shoot ANY deer, not just antlerless. I personally know farmers who do not allow any hunting on their farms, yet get 100 or so permits to blast "nuisance" deer off their lands. I even know a farmer who allows only his family to hunt his land, and his family members of course may bring a guest ot two, and he provides these DMAP permits with ORDERS TO ALL HUNTERS to kill every deer they see, no matter what age, size, sex, etc. He further INSTRUCTS hunters that if they pass on an animal, you are permanently exiled from his acreage! This farmer doesn't even care what is done with the carcass. "Leave it where it falls, I don't care" was his statement. Now, this is an extreme, but underscores a serious underlying issue:

Hunter numbers ARE declining. The Answer from the more Liberal, anti-hunting crowd is nuisance permits, bait & shoot by cops, or, heaven forbid, chemical contraceptives. If we do not get our numbers up in the woods, our effectiveness as deer managers will decline, and this will be used against us by our opponents, wrongfull and shamelessly, to further curtail our rights, and pass laws to have police officers perform bait & shoot, at our expense, rather than get more huntr in the woods who PAY to participate.


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## ChadD

*No Jim*



Jim C said:


> So again my point holds true-we should DEBATE whether more bowhunters or LESS bowhunters is GOOD or bad rather than trying to demonize a bow or those who choose to use it. If your opposition is based on a desire to limit the number of bowhunters then you would should have opposed the introduction of higher and higher letoff compounds and mechanical releases as well. The problem is, most of the guys now opposing xbows are using most of the compound gadgets and have to draw the line right past their own tackle


No...you should debate that. As I said, I wasn't in this to debate anything. I already had my debate, and am done with it. I made a comment that I thought was pertinent to the conversation, and really ended up being like a point I was trying to make in the debate....it wasn't. You asked a question, to which I replied with my opinion based on my observations. As the rules have stated, facts were to be presented to the DEBATE...feelings had no part in it, but I was asked anyway.

My original comment was made as it relates to the deer herd and over hunting as it stands already. I expressed a concern that introduction of a weapon that will cause more hunters to get into the woods will lead to even more stress being put on the deer herd. That's it, far as it goes...please debate with the other members...I just registered to try to help out with a few facts about our deer herd.


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## doctariAFC

Incidentally, the reporting on the DMAP harvest is shoddy at best - the NYC DEC admitted as much, to the NYS Assembly no less. Hunter concerns on this issue have been heard, and rumor has it (and this is only a rumor) that something is in the works to address this problem. I sure hope the DEC proposes to adopt the restriction of landowners seeking DMAP permits must PROVE that at least 1 hunter per 10 acres hunts their land. If this is not the case, sorry, no nuisance permit for you!


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## PMantle

Jim C said:


> really? so I say the magic words and my crossbow draws itself? {QUOTE]


----------



## ChadD

*progers*



progers said:


> Chad, are hunters going out of state to hunt trophy whitetails? Is that why the $78MIL # is so high? Paying the big bucks for the big bucks?
> 
> I mean, I know I was impressed when I got a 120 class buck. I sure would like a 160 on the wall! :beer:


I have done this a couple times, but it has been messing up on me...don't have the energy to type the whole thing again....

But, if people wanted to only hunt trophies, they would be doing that here...there are a few places you can do that in LA and shoot 180 class bucks...I have only heard that argument one time and it was from one member of the LDWF Admin......he was basically laughed at by everyone in the room....that is an absurd argument....

ARkansas, after going to the statewide program saw an increase of a couple million in their out of state license sales...Hugh Durham told me this while he was still AGF Commissioner...he said he was standing at the border waving them in....surely it wasn't coincidence that this increase occured just after they implented QDM programs....same thing happened in GA and MS.....now, unless they all started deer farming the same year they started their programs, you can see how this reason for hunters leaving LA is just an excuse by one member of the Department why he has failed at his job....


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## progers

*you got that right*



ChadD said:


> No...you should debate that. As I said, I wasn't in this to debate anything. I already had my debate, and am done with it. I made a comment that I thought was pertinent to the conversation, and really ended up being like a point I was trying to make in the debate....it wasn't. You asked a question, to which I replied with my opinion based on my observations. As the rules have stated, facts were to be presented to the DEBATE...feelings had no part in it, but I was asked anyway.
> 
> My original comment was made as it relates to the deer herd and over hunting as it stands already. I expressed a concern that introduction of a weapon that will cause more hunters to get into the woods will lead to even more stress being put on the deer herd. That's it, far as it goes...please debate with the other members...I just registered to try to help out with a few facts about our deer herd.




I have to agree there Chad. I am thru with the debate as of now. We are making good progress on getting info that will either back up one side or the other. Whatever the outcome, I will stand behind it.

I can tell you one thing, It makes me proud to see other people from LA stand up for what they belive in. Tho we have not agreed on very much at all, we have agreed that whatever we should do, we should do it to benifit the deer herds, and that includes revenue. We are passionate about our sport.


Yes, we have trophies here but, they are few and far between. People would just as well pay $$$'s for a trophy hunt and drive out of state to better their chances. Should we call those people lazy because they go and hunt a deer pen? 


Chad, I too only started learning about this over the psat 3 weeks. I have never shot a crossbow but, I had a very nice compound and I could make it do just about anything with minimumal practice. 


Glad to see all being polite and understanding! :beer:


----------



## PMantle

ChadD said:


> I have done this a couple times, but it has been messing up on me...don't have the energy to type the whole thing again....
> 
> But, if people wanted to only hunt trophies, they would be doing that here...there are a few places you can do that in LA and shoot 180 class bucks...I have only heard that argument one time and it was from one member of the LDWF Admin......he was basically laughed at by everyone in the room....that is an absurd argument....
> 
> ARkansas, after going to the statewide program saw an increase of a couple million in their out of state license sales...Hugh Durham told me this while he was still AGF Commissioner...he said he was standing at the border waving them in....surely it wasn't coincidence that this increase occured just after they implented QDM programs....same thing happened in GA and MS.....now, unless they all started deer farming the same year they started their programs, you can see how this reason for hunters leaving LA is just an excuse by one member of the Department why he has failed at his job....


Chad, I'm not following you on this post. Can you summerize what points you are making here?


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## cynic

you have one of the finest hunting resorts in north america right there in La. The owner of the ranch is a personal friend of mine. WWW.HIGHDELTAHUNTS.COM


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## progers

Ok, Mantle, I got one just for you from what you wrote:



> B. A licensee having a disability which totally and permanently prevents his using a long bow or other conventional archery equipment, as first certified by a medical doctor duly licensed to practice medicine in this state, and having an approved permit from the department, shall be permitted to take legal deer with a crossbow, and the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge, as well as in the special deer hunting season provided in R.S. 56:116.



Ok, this clearly is talking about the handicap. A *licensee* is someone between the ages of 15 and 59 as that is the ages you have to buy a liscense.


Question:
Seniors, or people over 60 are not stated and chidren under 15 are not stated. So, does that mean we can take our kids with one as long as they are 14 or younger?



OH YEA, something else......



> and the taking of deer with a crossbow shall be permitted in the season in which deer may be taken by rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun not larger than a No. 10 gauge



I was under the impression that the handicap and people over 60 could use them in ALL seasons open for deer. Aparently I was wrong. This says that the handicap and seniors can ONLY use them during GUN season!

Can anyone varify this please?

If they are NOT allowed in archery for the handicap and seniors, this law needs to be revised ASAP!


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> What type of xbow does your dad shoot, Marvin? Just curious.
> 
> We are looking for PROOF, not here say.
> I seen a guy shoot quarters out the air with a long bow, too.
> 
> 
> I shoot long range with rifles and I am not comfortable with a 21' - 44' bullet drop and cannot keep them in a 6' group at 500 yards, which is equivelent to what you are saying he is doing with a crossbow.
> 
> 
> 
> Fact: The "bolt drop" or "arrow trajectory" chart I give you is valid. Anything over 30 yards is majorly compensated for.


horton why? I have probably killed more deer with a crossbow than you anyway. Since your having troubling reading, i was not commenting on your bolt drop but your lies about effective range of 30 yards....too funny. becareful stepping down from that soap box. I am sorry you can't shoot any better than that. that ccomparison is sooo fitting by the way....I guess my dads crossbow is MORE accurate than a rifle....so much for that myth.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Hey, no problemo Marvin. You are more than welcome to participate in this debate. You know what we are looking for in this, in tersm of behavior, and nothing you have done here in this post is even close to borderline. You have asked a question, and raised some concerns. That's all good by me, and this is how we address the concerns.
> 
> The scopes which have those multiple site markers are pretty much the same thing as sights on compound bows which sport multiple pins. In fact, the first pin site set up I had on my first compound bow had 4 pins. I set them for 20 yrds, 30 yrds, 35 yrds and 40 yrds. Never used the 35 or 40 yrd pins, and I ended up pulling them off the site. However, some compound shooters do utilize these pins, especially moreso for competition, either 3-D or field (longer distance pins.) Do some use these for hunting. Yep. I think the bigger rub here is not how many pins you have or how far a shot a hunter will take, it is how proficient and ethical an individual hunter would be. Like has been stated in numerous threads on this issue, if a hunter can ethically harvest a deer or any other game animal at 30, 40, 50 yards, regardless of archery equipment used, hey, have at it. The issue is when a hunter is tempted to reach beyond his or her ability and fling an arrow or bolt at a target one knows they cannot hit with confidence. But, this unethical event is not limited to crossbow users. Indeed, if a hunter succombs to temptation, foregoing the ethical desire for a clean harvest and taking the ill advised shot you have little or no experience shooting at, then I would be willing to bet the hunter is the issue and not the implement. They will stretch their limits with a compound, recurve, rifle, shotgun, musket, pistol, etc.
> 
> Just for the record, Howard Hill's longest kill shot made on a Bull Elk was 187 YARDS with a self bow, no sites. Took him 3 shots to bag it. First shot was high, second was low, third was in the bingo box. At least, this is what I was told by a guy who knew Howard, and learned the art of self bow archery from Howard. For you and me, even with a rifle, that would be a stretch, I am sure. But Mr Hill is not you or me.


Doctari,

thanks for the warm welcome. I appreciate it. I like the Howard hill comparison. Makes an even better point. if one were to try that shot today, he would be labeled a hack. so we have this general underwritten rule that 25 yards is the furthest we should shoot at game. I make the comparison in general because as a society we have racheted down the "effect range" definitions claim but we increased (or become more liberal with) our definition of what a "real bow" is. don't worry sports fans....I am including compounds in here too.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> I completely understand this, and I agree with you in many regards. However, I do not think the crossbow will make any ppositive or negative impact on this condition in LA. Once we get a handle on participation trends, getting the detail of ages of hunters, and who is leaving the sport or not entering the sport nailed down, and we examine the deer population trends (albeit guesses upon guesses) we will have some solid facts to go by in this area.
> 
> In terms of crossbows, I am starting to believe that the crossbow is not as big a deal, or is the real issue for concern here. I believe the real reason for concerns is public ACCESS to good hunting lands. We still need to nail down what crossbow addition has done to increase hunters in the woods in other states, as to draw a projection for LA, but, I would hazard a guess that if LA could increase publically accessible lands (or "encourage" private landowners to allow more access to their lands, at little or no out of hunter pocket expense) by say 25% to 50%, the crossbow issue would for the ost part become a non-issue. Heck, you guys are already co-existing with crossbows. I am really believing now that the root is actually ACCESS.


Its amazing how many peopel turn a blind eye to this issue. Dead on Doctari. the reason the ohio numbers are so "screwed" is that we have a bad habit of building new houses and gobbling up land. we are losing hunters becuase we are losing land. there is no magic bullet to stop it either. Our government highly encourages it. Just look at our tax system for schools here. the more land you own the more taxes you pay wether or not you ever put any kids through school or not. bye-bye large tracts of land. 

i figure by the time we finally get this crossbow issue put to bed in all states, there will be less of us and more of them and it will all be a mute point. but until then......


----------



## Jim C

I am curious marvin-how is more crossbow archers and less ex crossbow-now compound archers a bad thing? IF we legalize xbows and a majority of bowhunters turn to crossbows what is the harm?


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## progers

*somebody's not playing nice...*















Marvin said:


> horton why? I have probably killed more deer with a crossbow than you anyway. Since your having troubling reading, i was not commenting on your bolt drop but your lies about effective range of 30 yards....too funny. becareful stepping down from that soap box. I am sorry you can't shoot any better than that. that ccomparison is sooo fitting by the way....I guess my dads crossbow is MORE accurate than a rifle....so much for that myth.


----------



## ChadD

*Pmantle*



PMantle said:


> Chad, I'm not following you on this post. Can you summerize what points you are making here?



What I wrote was in response to a couple posts that progers had in relation to the reason people were leaving the state to hunt, and the monies they were spending elsewhere. His contention in a couple posts were that people were leaving, and the money being spent, was by people who were seeking trophy whitetail. My reasons were to point out simply that it was for better hunting opportunities, an for a better chance at killing quality animals, as opposed to trophy class deer.


----------



## ChadD

*exactly*



cynic said:


> you have one of the finest hunting resorts in north america right there in La. The owner of the ranch is a personal friend of mine. WWW.HIGHDELTAHUNTS.COM



And that was the point...if people were leaving LA to hunt other places for trophy whitetail, they would just be staying here to do it...we have opportunities here to do it on a few properties...


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## ChadD

*progers*

here are a couple sections to put your mind at ease about crossbows, and seniors and the disabled...

104.1. Physically challenged hunter permits

A. The Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Commission is hereby authorized to adopt rules and regulations for the creation and issuance of hunting permits for individuals who are temporarily or permanently disabled. A temporary disability is one of such severity that it shall last for a duration of at least one year. The rules and regulations shall provide for the duration and costs of the permits and provide for disability classifications of "wheelchair bound", "mobility impaired" as defined in R.S. 47:463.4(E), and "amputee of an upper extremity". Such permits may be issued only to those persons certified by a physician licensed to practice medicine by the Louisiana State Board of Medical Examiners. If the physician certifies that the disability is temporary, the person holding the permit shall be required to recertify to the department each year that such certification is still valid. The commission rules and regulations shall provide for special handicap hunts, special deer seasons, access to wildlife management areas, and use of a crossbow for taking deer.

Persons sixty years of age or over who have been residents of the state for at least two years may hunt and take deer with a bow and arrow or crossbow without a bow hunting license or crossbow permit

__________________________

The Commission sets the rules allowing those hunters to hunt with crossbows during the archery season, and can make changes as such...however, it had to go before the legislature to let it in......as is the case with several issues....


----------



## progers

ChadD said:


> here are a couple sections to put your mind at ease about crossbows, and seniors and the disabled...
> 
> 104.1. Physically challenged hunter permits
> 
> A. The Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Commission is hereby authorized to adopt rules and regulations for the creation and issuance of hunting permits for individuals who are temporarily or permanently disabled. A temporary disability is one of such severity that it shall last for a duration of at least one year. The rules and regulations shall provide for the duration and costs of the permits and provide for disability classifications of "wheelchair bound", "mobility impaired" as defined in R.S. 47:463.4(E), and "amputee of an upper extremity". Such permits may be issued only to those persons certified by a physician licensed to practice medicine by the Louisiana State Board of Medical Examiners. If the physician certifies that the disability is temporary, the person holding the permit shall be required to recertify to the department each year that such certification is still valid. The commission rules and regulations shall provide for special handicap hunts, special deer seasons, access to wildlife management areas, and use of a crossbow for taking deer.
> 
> Persons sixty years of age or over who have been residents of the state for at least two years may hunt and take deer with a bow and arrow or crossbow without a bow hunting license or crossbow permit
> 
> __________________________
> 
> The Commission sets the rules allowing those hunters to hunt with crossbows during the archery season, and can make changes as such...however, it had to go before the legislature to let it in......as is the case with several issues....



Thanks for your input Chad. I never doubted that handicap people could hunt with an xbow. I was really needing to know if it is true that as of now, the way the law states and read that the handicap and seniors could NOT hunt during archery seasons in LA with a xbow. 


I never said that we we're loosing hunters. Someone on your side said that then Don said that the LA hunters were spending more out of state than in state. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



> My reasons were to point out simply that it was for better hunting opportunities, an for a better chance at killing quality animals, as opposed to trophy class deer.


Please define "quality" animals.

I can think of "fat doe" and "big bucks". We have the "fat doe" here in LA.


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## progers

*hunting numbers...*

Questions:

1) If overall deer hunting numbers ARE rising but, the overall archery numbers have been decreasing, what would that tell us? Just curious of your opinions. 


2) If the number of seniors are increasing and archery kills are climbing as archery numbers are declining (since xbows are included in gun kill stats) and archery liscense are decreasing, what would that tell us? Just curious of your opinions.


3) If gun hunter/deer kill ratio is better than 1:1 ratio, bow is almost 2:1 and MZL is about 2.5:1 ratio, what does that tell us? Just curious of your opinions. 

4) If hunter numbers and deer harvest numbers are steadily rising each year, what does that tell us? Just curious of your opinions.


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## progers

Question #1 error: It was wrote wrong, no need to answer that one, lol! :zip:


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## cynic

Simply take 1 week of gun season add it to archery and allow xbows for a 2 week period of archery and during any season that guns can be used. That way bow hunters get an additional week. Yes, I thought about how this will affect gun hunters. I feel that this would entice more hunters to use archery equipment. The lure that it shoots like a rifle will get many for sure and in there minds gives them an extra week without having to draw a string. This whole thing boils down to "many want to use them because someone says they can't" many just want a choice. I would be willing to bet that any archer that shoots one that can still draw a bow will go back to a cbow for hunting. Anyone that goes out and buys a xbow because they think that it will be so easy will have a rude awakening. Same ranges same stands yes some are faster than cbows but that doesn't matter since the noise gets there way before the bolt and they jump the string. It has been stated that many archers go to the limits of game retrieval and permitted use hours and if you shoot an animal late chance are that you will not be able to collect it and leaving it over night is not an option because of temp. All I can say is that each and every archer should know there own limits and if it is that late and you won't be able to collect it, don't shoot it. It sounds like many hunt only to KILL, the kill only means you were successful in your HUNT


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## doctariAFC

*Let's Get Back to Fact Finding*

Ok folks,

I go away to attend a VERY LONG WINDED Federation Meeting, and we are starting down the path of thread lock again. Let's please use facts to back up your positions. Many are doing this, but some certainly are not.

Marvin, please play nice with progers. He is doing a bang up job in researching and securing the necessary information. When anyone makes a statement that includes the word "lie" or "lies", you had better back this up with hard, proven facts, not simply maing the statemtn and leaving it at that. We have had way too much of this, to the detriment of discussion, and indeed to the angst of sporting rights. Make a claim, back it up. *This goes to for or against. If you cannot, please refrain from comment, as throwing gasoline on a fire in always unproductive (unless you're cold and its freezing out )*

I think we have some very good information in the areas we need to start. I'll do some number crunching over the weekend and will present my findings next week. Since I am not familiar with the dynamics of LA hunting, I will keep my conclusion drawing to a minimum, yet I will note observations. This will take me some time to comple, and I will most likely put this tother as a power point file, complete with charts and graphs, which I can convert to pdf. I may even put a link on my website for those who wish to save a copy (will save folks the trouble of providing email addresses, and will put the responsibility on YOU all to get the report, rather than me sending the report out.)

Incidentally, shrinking hunter numbers equates to shrinking financial resources to each State's Conservation Fund. this is a FACT! Here is a chilling FACT from NYS, which is suffering serious hunter declines, and the Conservation Fund (where much of the $ come for habitat conservation and greenspace land purchases) is taking the biggest hit. According to the Erie County, NY CFAB repreentative, NY CF is staring at a $12 MILLION DEFICIT for 2006/ 2007. NYS budget CUT a substantial general fund spend to the CF in 2002, whichwas dirty as it gets, especially since in 2002 our license fees increased by double-digit %, all licenses.NYS has signed into Law an emergency funding to the CF of $7.5 Million to help recover from the CWD tracking expenses incurred last year, but this still means the CF will be short $4.5 MILLION. If you know how $ get funneled into your state's CF, you also understand that the more hunters who buy licenses and buy gear and equipment add more $ to the CF, through the Pittman-Robinson Act.

So, if we all wish to protect greenspaces and open properties, like former farms from developers, we NEED A HEALTHY CF TO DO SO. Declining hunter numbers does just the opposite, and anything we can do to grow hunter ranks is nothing but a positive, SO LONG AS WE HAVE A PLAN BEHIND THE ACTIONS. Simply adding new laws without a plan serves no purpose, IMO.


----------



## Fireemt124

Engelsmung said:


> Heck, if we're worried about all hunters, why not let 'em use rifles during the whole season? A crossbow might be too heavy for them, and that's unfair. Why limit 4 wheelers to designated trails? It's unfair to make young or old hunters have to drag very far.
> 
> Here's the deer harvest info from 2003-2004 season, which is the last I have:
> #people checked; #game killed; kill/effort
> 
> Deer(gun) 70804; 4408; 1/16
> Deer(archery) 17404; 383; 1/45
> Deer(muz)	12819; 697; 1/18
> 
> This is from the State WMAs, and is based on the mandatory checkin/out cards that you must possess and turn in on each hunt. An average of 45 hunts per each deer. I doubt it's that hard in Ohio. Maybe our bowhunters just suck down here.
> 
> Now that I've seen the light about how easy compound bowhunting is, I'm calling my legislator to see if we can get an Atl-atl season established. Dr. McCann was just years ahead of his time.



http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/state/all-a6_5atlatljan25,0,4323490.story . Hmmmmmm you might be on to something.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Ok folks,
> 
> I go away to attend a VERY LONG WINDED Federation Meeting, and we are starting down the path of thread lock again. Let's please use facts to back up your positions. Many are doing this, but some certainly are not.
> 
> Marvin, please play nice with progers. He is doing a bang up job in researching and securing the necessary information. When anyone makes a statement that includes the word "lie" or "lies", you had better back this up with hard, proven facts, not simply maing the statemtn and leaving it at that. We have had way too much of this, to the detriment of discussion, and indeed to the angst of sporting rights. Make a claim, back it up. *This goes to for or against. If you cannot, please refrain from comment, as throwing gasoline on a fire in always unproductive (unless you're cold and its freezing out )*
> 
> I think we have some very good information in the areas we need to start. I'll do some number crunching over the weekend and will present my findings next week. Since I am not familiar with the dynamics of LA hunting, I will keep my conclusion drawing to a minimum, yet I will note observations. This will take me some time to comple, and I will most likely put this tother as a power point file, complete with charts and graphs, which I can convert to pdf. I may even put a link on my website for those who wish to save a copy (will save folks the trouble of providing email addresses, and will put the responsibility on YOU all to get the report, rather than me sending the report out.)
> 
> Incidentally, shrinking hunter numbers equates to shrinking financial resources to each State's Conservation Fund. this is a FACT! Here is a chilling FACT from NYS, which is suffering serious hunter declines, and the Conservation Fund (where much of the $ come for habitat conservation and greenspace land purchases) is taking the biggest hit. According to the Erie County, NY CFAB repreentative, NY CF is staring at a $12 MILLION DEFICIT for 2006/ 2007. NYS budget CUT a substantial general fund spend to the CF in 2002, whichwas dirty as it gets, especially since in 2002 our license fees increased by double-digit %, all licenses.NYS has signed into Law an emergency funding to the CF of $7.5 Million to help recover from the CWD tracking expenses incurred last year, but this still means the CF will be short $4.5 MILLION. If you know how $ get funneled into your state's CF, you also understand that the more hunters who buy licenses and buy gear and equipment add more $ to the CF, through the Pittman-Robinson Act.
> 
> So, if we all wish to protect greenspaces and open properties, like former farms from developers, we NEED A HEALTHY CF TO DO SO. Declining hunter numbers does just the opposite, and anything we can do to grow hunter ranks is nothing but a positive, SO LONG AS WE HAVE A PLAN BEHIND THE ACTIONS. Simply adding new laws without a plan serves no purpose, IMO.



I'm Playing Nice Doctari...just stating some life experiences which would be the truth eh? 

anywhooo.....I am curious as to how you expect the healthy CF to be the bearer of providing adequate open spaces for sportsman? to be honest, if they expect to keep pace with land prices.....tags are going to have to be in the several hundreds or thousands of dollars. Then were are we going to be. I am not sure a healthy CF is the answer to anyones Game Management or sportsmans opportunity. I'ts going to have to come from the legislature. Yep the government and probably backed by the supreme court. ( yes that means it aint going to happen). people don't like being told their land is not worth as much as their neighbors because some congressman wants to make a point. i could go on but i digress..... i MIGHT ght try to get my dads rig out and shoot some groups and post pics. Weather is not looking too promising this weekend.


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> I'm Playing Nice Doctari...just stating some life experiences which would be the truth eh?
> 
> anywhooo.....I am curious as to how you expect the healthy CF to be the bearer of providing adequate open spaces for sportsman? to be honest, if they expect to keep pace with land prices.....tags are going to have to be in the several hundreds or thousands of dollars. Then were are we going to be. I am not sure a healthy CF is the answer to anyones Game Management or sportsmans opportunity. I'ts going to have to come from the legislature. Yep the government and probably backed by the supreme court. ( yes that means it aint going to happen). people don't like being told their land is not worth as much as their neighbors because some congressman wants to make a point. i could go on but i digress..... i MIGHT ght try to get my dads rig out and shoot some groups and post pics. Weather is not looking too promising this weekend.


No problemo. However, Life experiences, althoughh they may be true, are not FACTS. The reason is that the experience is true for YOU, but may not be true for ME, or anyone else. I am looking for FACTS, which cross beyond individual experiences.

In regards to the CF, The more people we got in the woods, the more licenses we sell, and the more gear is purchased. Remember, the CF is funded by more than license sales. But, license sales are a pretty good indicator of how many dollars may be spent on merchandise, and offer some insight and projection. 

Yes, you are correct, that we will also need some Legislation, and I believe this may need to come down from the Federal Level. WHat I am thinking here is targeting one big fat expense that currently is choking the life out of the sportsman's ability to enjoy the sport. Land Leasing Fees! Are the Beneficiaries of these fees (Landowners) required to cough up a %, like 15% to help the CF? With this expendiure being 40% of the sportsman's budget (give or take, depending on State) this is a HUGE dollar being sucked out of the hunter's ability to spend on items which benefit the CF, and into the hands of private folks who potentially could really care less.

Thoughts?


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1) If overall deer hunting numbers ARE rising but, the overall archery numbers have been decreasing, what would that tell us? Just curious of your opinions.
> 
> 
> 2) If the number of seniors are increasing and archery kills are climbing as archery numbers are declining (since xbows are included in gun kill stats) and archery liscense are decreasing, what would that tell us? Just curious of your opinions.
> 
> 
> 3) If gun hunter/deer kill ratio is better than 1:1 ratio, bow is almost 2:1 and MZL is about 2.5:1 ratio, what does that tell us? Just curious of your opinions.
> 
> 4) If hunter numbers and deer harvest numbers are steadily rising each year, what does that tell us? Just curious of your opinions.


1. The increase in gun kills makes it harder to bowhunt, especially on overtaxed public lands.
2. Don't think this statistic applie to La, but if 60 or older, don't need a license here. Also, many bowhunters have lifetime licenses, so don't buy annual archery license. Lastly, private clubs w/bow only doing well, while public hunters do worse.
3. Huh? where is this stat from?
4. Same story. Deer harvest numbers in La vary with the severity of the winter. If very cold, deer move more, and more get seen and shot. Last few winters mild, so harvest not very high.


----------



## progers

Fireemt124 said:


> http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/state/all-a6_5atlatljan25,0,4323490.story . Hmmmmmm you might be on to something.




That is very interesting, FE! 

I rally like the one statement in there, that could apply to the crossbows here:




> ''Anyone who has witnessed the use of it would never question its ability to harvest big game efficiently''


----------



## Engelsmung

Fireemt124 said:


> http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/state/all-a6_5atlatljan25,0,4323490.story . Hmmmmmm you might be on to something.


I'm moving to Pennsylvania! I guess this'll start with self-atl-atls, then move to carbon fiber, muzzy spear point, high tech devices. The season will start in September.

A few years back we had a local physician from Marksville kill a deer with a spear(no atlatl, just jumped off the stand adrove the spear thruthe doe). He bragged to the newspaper and LaDWF went and gave him a ticket for illegal weapon being used to harvest deer.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> 1. The increase in gun kills makes it harder to bowhunt, especially on overtaxed public lands.
> 2. Don't think this statistic applie to La, but if 60 or older, don't need a license here. Also, many bowhunters have lifetime licenses, so don't buy annual archery license. Lastly, private clubs w/bow only doing well, while public hunters do worse.
> 3. Huh? where is this stat from?
> 4. Same story. Deer harvest numbers in La vary with the severity of the winter. If very cold, deer move more, and more get seen and shot. Last few winters mild, so harvest not very high.



1. # of archery kills are rising the same % as gun kills. Bow season starts 3 weeks before firearm and MZL season and lasts 3 weeks after firearm and MZL. Bow kills were up 10,000 from 02' - 03' to 03' - 04' seasons. Gun seasonson is NOT making it harder on the archers.

2. The lifetime liscense are figured into the numbers. Actually, this shows that as we are aging, we are keeping the seniors that reach the age to be considered seniors in the worls of hunting. Archery liscense sales are down. We are having more seniors hunt with xbows during rifle season because they choose to. 

3. The stat is from the LDWF that quite a few of us from this side of the table are looking at right as this minute. Have any of yall wrote the LDWF to get this report? It is very interesting.

4. as overall hunter numbers drop, we have more hunters that are still hunting trying different and new avenues of hunting because they choose to.





Something we were talking about last night: Yes, xbows will create new hunters. It will also give existing hunters more choices to try new things. The "lazy" hunters as yall have so politely put it, can then have the chance to bow hunt with an easier means. Once they are introduced to the world of bowhunting, my prediction will be that they will love bow hunting and go and buy a compound bow. Thus, both sides are benifiting, along with the State.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> I'm moving to Pennsylvania! I guess this'll start with self-atl-atls, then move to carbon fiber, muzzy spear point, high tech devices. The season will start in September.
> 
> A few years back we had a local physician from Marksville kill a deer with a spear(no atlatl, just jumped off the stand adrove the spear thruthe doe). He bragged to the newspaper and LaDWF went and gave him a ticket for illegal weapon being used to harvest deer.




I think that it is Alabama that has the spear season, for hogs. I have alot of Shawnee in me and believe me, many of my forefathers has fed their family by use of a spear. Have you ever finished a deer off with a knife?

But, we're not trying to get spear huting in LA as of now. We are discussing xbows. 

Pennsylvania has xbows legal for ALL individuals during firearm season. Will that be ok with you?


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Pennsylvania has xbows legal for ALL individuals during firearm season. Will that be ok with you?


Why not? I bowhunt during rifle season, just not in areas where guns are allowed.

progers, send me the link or whatever the state of La sent you to verify the harvest numbers. I'd love to see that. My view is based on having my rear end in a stand 30-50x per year, and the drop in seeing deer and harvesting, as well as viwewing the numbers of bow vs. gun kills from the two NWRs I hunt primarily. I suspect you're dealing with private land. If I was in a nice bow lease, I wouldn't be concerned w/public land, but I'm stuck on public. I get an invite to hunt Davis Island a couple times a year, and that place is magnificent. I just don't have the $250K to join, or the $10K annual dues.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> No problemo. However, Life experiences, althoughh they may be true, are not FACTS. The reason is that the experience is true for YOU, but may not be true for ME, or anyone else. I am looking for FACTS, which cross beyond individual experiences.
> 
> In regards to the CF, The more people we got in the woods, the more licenses we sell, and the more gear is purchased. Remember, the CF is funded by more than license sales. But, license sales are a pretty good indicator of how many dollars may be spent on merchandise, and offer some insight and projection.
> 
> Yes, you are correct, that we will also need some Legislation, and I believe this may need to come down from the Federal Level. WHat I am thinking here is targeting one big fat expense that currently is choking the life out of the sportsman's ability to enjoy the sport. Land Leasing Fees! Are the Beneficiaries of these fees (Landowners) required to cough up a %, like 15% to help the CF? With this expendiure being 40% of the sportsman's budget (give or take, depending on State) this is a HUGE dollar being sucked out of the hunter's ability to spend on items which benefit the CF, and into the hands of private folks who potentially could really care less.
> 
> Thoughts?



Oh man you asked ME for my thoughts? Oh man if I have the time to get through all of this. 
That very novel idea (lease taxes) is what I have been preaching all along. It is my opinion ( yeah i know not facts) that the leasing of land for the pursuit of state or federally owned game changes the intended land use of the land from say agricultural to commercial. then that starts the wheels spinning on several differents paths for what we all know and loath ...TAXES....BUT there are ways around taxes for coporate america...hence the political problem...friends with deep pockets (and agenda)can get things done and I'll just leave it at that. The CRP program is a prime example. the government pays the farmer to keep land unfarmed and back to its native grasses BUT he can inturn lease that ground out. Double dipping is an interesting topic but we will get to that later. How does an outfitter lease land and not get to pay commerical taxes? he runs a business doesn't he? how is the land he uses to make a profit any different than the land a business uses for parking gararge? this will get to a boil at some point but i fear it will be too late unless we re-elect Teddy Roosevelt. it starts on several levels but i also fear there are to many levels to tackle before its too late. It may be too late. The answer will not come from our CF departments. I believe they have a better chance of coming form organizations flike DU, Pheasants Forever and whitetail what ever.....The push is going to have to be from the outside (sportsman) but they are not going to want to give up their piece of the pie. They get access to great lands at bargain prices. why would they want to make it harder on themselves (you can insert greed here at anytime)? I don't see it happening in my lifetime. look what happened when the north told the south slavery was wrong. The leasing tradtion is too deep rooted and surrounded by selfishness to change. Groups like SCI who see no problem with High fences have no idea what they are fostering. like everyone has said before...if all these clubs like SCI, P&Y, HBM and B&C were all about the animal there would be no names associated with them. maybe some of you have read this and see it as a doomsday prediction but please show us another alternative and there are many out there that will follow. I can see no solution because at its very roots, it is against the american way. sorry if I rambled


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Why not? I bowhunt during rifle season, just not in areas where guns are allowed.
> 
> progers, send me the link or whatever the state of La sent you to verify the harvest numbers. I'd love to see that. My view is based on having my rear end in a stand 30-50x per year, and the drop in seeing deer and harvesting, as well as viwewing the numbers of bow vs. gun kills from the two NWRs I hunt primarily. I suspect you're dealing with private land. If I was in a nice bow lease, I wouldn't be concerned w/public land, but I'm stuck on public. I get an invite to hunt Davis Island a couple times a year, and that place is magnificent. I just don't have the $250K to join, or the $10K annual dues.




I am talking about private land, public land, WMA's, clubs, leases, and DMAP. It is ALL of LA. I would venture to say that the deer count ratios are even better than predicted per hunter. 

Why would someone pay 10K a year just to put meat in the freezer?  


OK, you have to call or write the LDWF to get this info. They will send you a file or you can PM me your email and I will forward it to you or anyone for that matter. Or, you can view the copy of this info that I made. You have my word as a fellow hunter that it has not been altered. :beer: 


Louisiana deer kill stats:


----------



## progers

*crunching numers....*

Interesting!?! 

Look at the last 2 years in "Archery Equipment Hunters". It went from 44, 800 to 54,800. That is 10,000 more people taking deer with archery equipment, which includes the seniors with their xbows. 

Next, look at the increase of Seniors in the last two years in "Senior Lic." It went from 22,595 to 34,939. That is an increase of 12,344. 

As the "Archery Equipment Hunters" are increasing as the "Archery License" decreased by 1345 in the past two years, that tells us that 10,000 of the 12,344 seniors, who are not required to by the archery license, opted to go with archery equiped hunts with there being only 1,800 more deer taken with archery equipment. 

Could that mean xbows??? Hmmmmm.........


----------



## Engelsmung

*back to Mark Twain's quote*

about "Lies, damn lies, and statistics". Let's look at these numbers. The only truly accurate and factually based numbers are the numbers of licenses they sell, which they can count. They have the self reporting cards on the WMAs, which are mostly accurate, and they have DMAP land harvest reports, which are mostly accurate, they may get some NWR tallies, which is no more than a few hundred deer. All the rest must just be estimates??? How can you get 27K archery licenses(factually based number), with 57K archery equipment users(estimate)? I know we have some outlaws, but more than half? I haven't purchased an archery license in 8 years, since I bought my lifetime license. Are they counting me?

Sorry to dispute, but the DWF has incentive to boost numbers for their goals. More later.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> about "Lies, damn lies, and statistics". Let's look at these numbers. The only truly accurate and factually based numbers are the numbers of licenses they sell, which they can count. They have the self reporting cards on the WMAs, which are mostly accurate, and they have DMAP land harvest reports, which are mostly accurate, they may get some NWR tallies, which is no more than a few hundred deer. All the rest must just be estimates??? How can you get 27K archery licenses(factually based number), with 57K archery equipment users(estimate)? I know we have some outlaws, but more than half? I haven't purchased an archery license in 8 years, since I bought my lifetime license. Are they counting me?
> 
> Sorry to dispute, but the DWF has incentive to boost numbers for their goals. More later.



You wanted numbers, there they are in black and white. It would be safe to say that the LDWF were on the conservative side. Yes, lifetime license are included. Write or call the LDWF like I did and you can obtain all this info. 

They are not lies, damn lies and speculation. These are the facts. You may dispute the FACTS but, the burdon of proof will be in your hands to prove the FACT are untrue.

Happy Hunting! :beer:


----------



## Fireemt124

Let me make this perfectly clear from the start. This is a concept bow not in production yet. But will it be fought since 99% let off would let you hold the bow drawn forever? just curious. 

http://www.conceptarchery.com/concept99.htm


----------



## progers

If you notice, all moders firearm, MZL and archery EQUIPTED hunters are increasing even as the OVERALL number of LA hunters are decreasing slightly. 

That tells us that the LA hunters that are staying active are seeking new and different means of taking game. They are CHOOSING to do this and this is increasing revenue. 

Imagine if these hunters had another CHOICE of another means of taking game to add to their excitement of hunting. :beer:


----------



## cynic

We can only go by what information is provided to the public. The stats are provided by the same overseers of wildlife. Granted they can only go by the numbers that they get. This is the best we can get until they come up with a different way. This is the same place that the lobbyist will get there information. No one has a perfect system but this is the system they have in place to track and manage wildlife. The license numbers are tallied from actual licenses and would assume that the only deer that get tallied are at check stations. hince the number of kills would be slightly higher than that reported but so would the totals for archery hunters. There are for sure variables in statistic but if we are statistically speaking these are the statistics.


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> about "Lies, damn lies, and statistics". Let's look at these numbers. The only truly accurate and factually based numbers are the numbers of licenses they sell, which they can count. They have the self reporting cards on the WMAs, which are mostly accurate, and they have DMAP land harvest reports, which are mostly accurate, they may get some NWR tallies, which is no more than a few hundred deer. All the rest must just be estimates??? How can you get 27K archery licenses(factually based number), with 57K archery equipment users(estimate)? I know we have some outlaws, but more than half? I haven't purchased an archery license in 8 years, since I bought my lifetime license. Are they counting me?
> 
> Sorry to dispute, but the DWF has incentive to boost numbers for their goals. More later.


Yes, lifetime members are tallied for license issuance and seasonal permit requirements. You are a statistic and have been counted no disrespect intended.
If the numbers pointed in the other direction would you dispute them? Or would you use them to back your cause?So are you saying that the DWF has an on going conspiracy as the numbers have been in place for many years? What is there goal?


----------



## doctariAFC

Facts are facts. Choosing to ignore facts does no one any good in the debates. This is why I asked for facts. Unfortunately, facts to deflate parts of each side's argument from time to time. Nevertheless, we should learn from the facts rather than try to discredit.

Estimates are certainly tough t swallow, but theare usually close


----------



## Engelsmung

*so accept the statistics...*

that means in 2004-5 27K licensed bowhunters killed 22K deer, or 54K bowhunters killed 22K deer? Either 5K or 32K people went the entire bowseason not killing a deer? And you know a good many of those deer were multiple kills by single hunters on nice leases, so the numbers of guys that 0-fered is larger, especially on public land. That just confirms my theory that the bowhunting in La sucks, which is why I'd prefer not to jam another 10K crossbowers into my already crummy bowseason. They've already got 2-3 months of rifle/muzzleloader season. The issue here is whether you allow the crossbow into the regular bowseaon, for non-handicapped and non-codgers. All these out of state people who don't hunt here can blather on all they like, while they're overrun with deer and PETA members, they do not have the personal experience to make educated comments on what we need in La. In our legislature, money talks and BS walks, so get some cash from the crossbow manufacturers and spread it around, and you can help drive the few remaining real bowhunters out of the sport.


----------



## progers

*number crunch time again....*












OK, I did a complete number crunch and this is the result: 

The 00' - 05' deer season crunch for LA: 
(an (*) marks the ones we are falling behind on.)


Resident Lic. up (+17,067) 
Senior Lic. up (+31,588) 
*Archery Lic. down (-4128) 
MZL Lic. up (+4725) 
Total Hunter #'s up (+18,000) which includes out of state hunters 
Est. deer kills up (+7100) 
DMAP doe kills up (+11) 
Mod. firearm hunters up (+17,300) 
Mod. firearm deer kills up (+6500) 
Archery Equipped hunters up (+7200) which include xbows 
*Archery Equipped deer kills down (-1400) which include xbows 
MZL hunters up (+16,800) 
MZL deer kills up (+2900)


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> that means in 2004-5 27K licensed bowhunters killed 22K deer, or 54K bowhunters killed 22K deer? Either 5K or 32K people went the entire bowseason not killing a deer? And you know a good many of those deer were multiple kills by single hunters on nice leases, so the numbers of guys that 0-fered is larger, especially on public land. That just confirms my theory that the bowhunting in La sucks, which is why I'd prefer not to jam another 10K crossbowers into my already crummy bowseason. They've already got 2-3 months of rifle/muzzleloader season. The issue here is whether you allow the crossbow into the regular bowseaon, for non-handicapped and non-codgers. All these out of state people who don't hunt here can blather on all they like, while they're overrun with deer and PETA members, they do not have the personal experience to make educated comments on what we need in La. In our legislature, money talks and BS walks, so get some cash from the crossbow manufacturers and spread it around, and you can help drive the few remaining real bowhunters out of the sport.




I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say from my experience and from the experience of alot of bowhunters, the problem is NOT seeing deer and getting shots but, missing and NOT being able to recover the game.

It saddens me to say that but, for the most part it is true.


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> All these out of state people who don't hunt here can blather on all they like, while they're overrun with deer and PETA members, they do not have the personal experience to make educated comments on what we need in La. In our legislature, money talks and BS walks, so get some cash from the crossbow manufacturers and spread it around, and you can help drive the few remaining real bowhunters out of the sport.


Please tell me the definition of a real bowhunter!


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Please tell me the definition of a real bowhunter!


The one using a real BOW!

(duh)


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> The one using a real BOW!
> 
> (duh)



Yes and logic would tell you that it would be the longbow and recurve archers only!

Way to go primitive guys! Yall the greatest! :beer:


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> Oh man you asked ME for my thoughts? Oh man if I have the time to get through all of this.
> That very novel idea (lease taxes) is what I have been preaching all along. It is my opinion ( yeah i know not facts) that the leasing of land for the pursuit of state or federally owned game changes the intended land use of the land from say agricultural to commercial. then that starts the wheels spinning on several differents paths for what we all know and loath ...TAXES....BUT there are ways around taxes for coporate america...hence the political problem...friends with deep pockets (and agenda)can get things done and I'll just leave it at that. The CRP program is a prime example. the government pays the farmer to keep land unfarmed and back to its native grasses BUT he can inturn lease that ground out. Double dipping is an interesting topic but we will get to that later. How does an outfitter lease land and not get to pay commerical taxes? he runs a business doesn't he? how is the land he uses to make a profit any different than the land a business uses for parking gararge? this will get to a boil at some point but i fear it will be too late unless we re-elect Teddy Roosevelt. it starts on several levels but i also fear there are to many levels to tackle before its too late. It may be too late. The answer will not come from our CF departments. I believe they have a better chance of coming form organizations flike DU, Pheasants Forever and whitetail what ever.....The push is going to have to be from the outside (sportsman) but they are not going to want to give up their piece of the pie. They get access to great lands at bargain prices. why would they want to make it harder on themselves (you can insert greed here at anytime)? I don't see it happening in my lifetime. look what happened when the north told the south slavery was wrong. The leasing tradtion is too deep rooted and surrounded by selfishness to change. Groups like SCI who see no problem with High fences have no idea what they are fostering. like everyone has said before...if all these clubs like SCI, P&Y, HBM and B&C were all about the animal there would be no names associated with them. maybe some of you have read this and see it as a doomsday prediction but please show us another alternative and there are many out there that will follow. I can see no solution because at its very roots, it is against the american way. sorry if I rambled


You have some good thoughts here, and I am with you, this is the biggest challenge we must tackle. There is a way. I believe the State of Washington has a plan to address this. I think I may have a plan as well. At least to improve access without peeing in any property owner's wheaties


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> OK, I did a complete number crunch and this is the result:
> 
> The 00' - 05' deer season crunch for LA:
> (an (*) marks the ones we are falling behind on.)
> 
> 
> Resident Lic. up (+17,067)
> Senior Lic. up (+31,588)
> *Archery Lic. down (-4128)
> MZL Lic. up (+4725)
> Total Hunter #'s up (+18,000) which includes out of state hunters
> Est. deer kills up (+7100)
> DMAP doe kills up (+11)
> Mod. firearm hunters up (+17,300)
> Mod. firearm deer kills up (+6500)
> Archery Equipped hunters up (+7200) which include xbows
> *Archery Equipped deer kills down (-1400) which include xbows
> MZL hunters up (+16,800)
> MZL deer kills up (+2900)


Nice job on the numbers. It does indeed look like archers in LA are leaving the sport. May be a good opportunity to introduce the crossbow to revive archery hunting in the State!


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say from my experience and from the experience of alot of bowhunters, the problem is NOT seeing deer and getting shots but, missing and NOT being able to recover the game.
> 
> It saddens me to say that but, for the most part it is true.


So how does adding crossbows to the bowseason help? Oh right, b/c they're easier to use, easier to be more accurate with, you don't need to draw in the deer's presence, and they have a longer range.

I've drawn my bow once this year, and while the tracking took two hours, harvested the doe. The only other deer within range was a 40lb fawn, and a deeeeep woods doe w/o my cart. So i'm 1/30+ hunts, and feel sorry for the 30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year. I hope they come back next year, but their numbers are dropping?(at least according to whichever statistic is correct?)


----------



## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> So how does adding crossbows to the bowseason help? Oh right, b/c they're easier to use, easier to be more accurate with, you don't need to draw in the deer's presence, and they have a longer range.
> 
> I've drawn my bow once this year, and while the tracking took two hours, harvested the doe. The only other deer within range was a 40lb fawn, and a deeeeep woods doe w/o my cart. So i'm 1/30+ hunts, and feel sorry for the 30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year. I hope they come back next year, but their numbers are dropping?(at least according to whichever statistic is correct?)


Yes. The numbers are dropping. I have asked Progers to peform a demographic study using USF&W reports. They break down hunters by age group, based on license issuance. You can even get a decent read on Male/ Female hunters in each age group as well, but that is a bit trickier to do. Then we can compare the LA numbers with states that have opened up the crossbow and make some comparisons and draw some educated conclusions.

And, believe me, the crossbow may seem easier, but it is in no way easier. It is just different.


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> Yes. The numbers are dropping. I have asked Progers to peform a demographic study using USF&W reports. They break down hunters by age group, based on license issuance. You can even get a decent read on Male/ Female hunters in each age group as well, but that is a bit trickier to do. Then we can compare the LA numbers with states that have opened up the crossbow and make some comparisons and draw some educated conclusions.
> 
> And, believe me, the crossbow may seem easier, but it is in no way easier. It is just different.



Doc, it's gonna take me the weekend to give a report on the USF&W reports, as it is 89 pages long!  



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to take this time to show the people why a compound is now equal to the crossbow. As I said, the advancement in technology from the compounds opened the door for crossbows to be used in ARCHERY season for ALL States.

------------------------
Concept 99
Concept P50 

Our 99% let-off bows provide better control and accuracy with impressive speed. This improved control allows you to make the shot when you want: not when the bow wants. For those who prefer to hold more, the CONCEPT 99 is adjustable to 80% let-off. 99% let-off technology is patent pending.

http://conceptarchery.com/concept99.htm

Full-axle needle bearings
80% and 99% let-off
7.5" and 6.4" brace height
Draw lengths from 24" to 31"
Modular draw adjustments
Draw weights 40-70 lb. peak
P50 - 34", Concept 99 - 36" Axle to Axle
Barnsdale laminated Limbs
Solid Billet machined Riser
Rockwell 52 hardened steel axles
Winner's choice (R) strings and cables
Available in Mossy Oak (R) or competition colors


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> So how does adding crossbows to the bowseason help? Oh right, b/c they're easier to use, easier to be more accurate with, you don't need to draw in the deer's presence, and they have a longer range.
> 
> I've drawn my bow once this year, and while the tracking took two hours, harvested the doe. The only other deer within range was a 40lb fawn, and a deeeeep woods doe w/o my cart. So i'm 1/30+ hunts, and feel sorry for the 30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year. I hope they come back next year, but their numbers are dropping?(at least according to whichever statistic is correct?)




To answer your question, Engelsmung:



> So how does adding crossbows to the bowseason help?



It will increase archery license sold considerably. More crossbows sold at sporting good stores. It will give more hunters more time in the outdoors. It will get more people interested in archery. It will get deer kill quotas, X number of kills, estamated deer kills, or whatever you want to call it, closer to their projected numbers for population control. 

More revenue for the State.
More choices for the hunter.

It's a win win situation.


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> So how does adding crossbows to the bowseason help? Oh right, b/c they're easier to use, easier to be more accurate with, you don't need to draw in the deer's presence, and they have a longer range.
> 
> I've drawn my bow once this year, and while the tracking took two hours, harvested the doe. The only other deer within range was a 40lb fawn, and a deeeeep woods doe w/o my cart. So i'm 1/30+ hunts, and feel sorry for the 30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year. I hope they come back next year, but their numbers are dropping?(at least according to whichever statistic is correct?)


 Can you explain why you would want them to come back to your overcrowded woods and if you truly hope they come back Why not invite a horizontal bow user. Lets throw out all of that. How far is the average shot that you take when you have the opportunity? Do you feel that you individually would gain a greater success rate if you had a few more yards (just saying if a xbow has that much more range)?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> The one using a real BOW!
> (duh)


Thanx I needed that but I do not want to get called down for unsportsman like conduct. So I will not respond.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> I've drawn my bow once this year, and while the tracking took two hours, harvested the doe. The only other deer within range was a 40lb fawn, and a deeeeep woods doe w/o my cart. So i'm 1/30+ hunts, and feel sorry for the 30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year. I hope they come back next year, but their numbers are dropping?(at least according to whichever statistic is correct?)



I'm truly sorry for your misfortune during your hunting trips. But, last year, as archery license dropped, the deer kill number grew. The ratio of hunter/deer was 2:1 for archers. 

Since there was only 27,209 archery license sold last year, looks that there is no "30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year." There could only be 13,604.5 to my knowledge.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> The one using a real BOW!
> 
> (duh)



they never give up with this stuff. 30 years ago a compound wasn't considered a real bow. more of the "if you use a crossbow you aren't a bow hunter nonsense"


----------



## cynic

Progers, While you are doing the #'s, See if you can find the stats on Longbow, recurve, Compound and even xbows. I know this is a lot ask.This is just for the trend of use from traditional to compound and how it has affected the archery season both by hunter involvement and kill ratio. Next see if you can survey the hunting populous for both current participation during archery and if they could/would hunt with a xbow, also do THEY hunt public or private land this will give estimates of impact on current WMA's. If they are current Archers you will need type of equip, kill stats and # of days hunted. Last but not least, Can you find out if there is any other sport that has as much infighting as hunting and why or why not.
http://www.lagameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/LA_1105_01/#cont


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> It's a win win situation.


Win win for the guys who are currently unwilling to hunt with a bow, and would then get to hunt bowseason with a x-bow. Win-win for the purveyors of x-bows. Another nail in the coffin of the public land bowhunter, who is already getting driven out of the sport by dwindling harvests and increased competition from gun hunting. The population control theory never fails to amuse me in Louisiana.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Since there was only 27,209 archery license sold last year, looks that there is no "30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year." There could only be 13,604.5 to my knowledge.


Sorry, referring to your statistics "k" and "l", which indicated 54,800 Archery equipment hunters, and 22,000 kills.


----------



## Engelsmung

cynic said:


> How far is the average shot that you take when you have the opportunity? Do you feel that you individually would gain a greater success rate if you had a few more yards (just saying if a xbow has that much more range)?


Most shots 15-20 yds, but practice at 30, so would shoot up to 30-35yds. You miss my point, or I should say, Pmantle's point: anyone who wants to bowhunt can do it now. Opening bowseason to x-bows will just add time for the gunhunters who are unwilling to pick up a bow. They already get to use the "primitive" muzzleloader with a magnifying scope thru last weekend(one week before close of bowseason in most spots). I had shoulder surgery last year, and my orthopedist, also a bowhunter, offered me a chance to get a crossbow while rehabbing. I declined, and just did PT until I could bowhunt at the end of the season. I like the method, and have never shot a deer w/a gun. Now the atl-atl...:wink:


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Sorry, referring to your statistics "k" and "l", which indicated 54,800 Archery equipment hunters, and 22,000 kills.



The number "54,800" is refering to Archery Equipped hunters. As there were only 27,209 Archery License sold, we know that those 27,209 hunted with longbows, recurves and compounds. There was about 1000 handicap permits issued I belive so, those numbers would be in the 27,209. As far as the remaining of the 54,800, they were seniors. They could be using the xbow, we don't know that as yet. So, for using "k" and "l" as reference to "30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year" would be a statement that is NOT based on facts. 

That would be unless you are now saying that a crossbow is a bow. :cocktail:


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Win win for the guys who are currently unwilling to hunt with a bow, and would then get to hunt bowseason with a x-bow. Win-win for the purveyors of x-bows. Another nail in the coffin of the public land bowhunter, who is already getting driven out of the sport by dwindling harvests and increased competition from gun hunting. The population control theory never fails to amuse me in Louisiana.




These are just personal comments. We are looking for FACTS. Bring the facts to the table that prove what you are saying so that we may review them. 

Archery equipped hunters are increasing, thanks to the seniors. The younger generation of archers are the one dwindling. All we need to do at this point is figure out why. 

How could the gun hunting population run off the younger bowhunters by making it so hard and then the senior archery hunters are rising rapidly? What you say makes no sence Bro!


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Most shots 15-20 yds, but practice at 30, so would shoot up to 30-35yds. You miss my point, or I should say, Pmantle's point: anyone who wants to bowhunt can do it now. Opening bowseason to x-bows will just add time for the gunhunters who are unwilling to pick up a bow. They already get to use the "primitive" muzzleloader with a magnifying scope thru last weekend(one week before close of bowseason in most spots). I had shoulder surgery last year, and my orthopedist, also a bowhunter, offered me a chance to get a crossbow while rehabbing. I declined, and just did PT until I could bowhunt at the end of the season. I like the method, and have never shot a deer w/a gun. Now the atl-atl...:wink:




Please tell us the range at which compound bow hunters shoot at 3D targets during competition. Even the long range targets, don't leave those out. I hear them bragging about how good they are at these competitions. What, 50 and 65 yards shots, stacking them? WOW! Perty impressive! :cocktail:


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> The number "54,800" is refering to Archery Equipped hunters. As there were only 27,209 Archery License sold, we know that those 27,209 hunted with longbows, recurves and compounds. There was about 1000 handicap permits issued I belive so, those numbers would be in the 27,209. As far as the remaining of the 54,800, they were seniors. They could be using the xbow, we don't know that as yet. So, for using "k" and "l" as reference to "30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year" would be a statement that is NOT based on facts.
> 
> That would be unless you are now saying that a crossbow is a bow. :cocktail:


ah, so 50% of bowhunters are codgers who can use x-bows? Wow, I never see them. I started bowhunting in '98, and have seen maybe 5 x-bowers, and all those were "handicapped"(in Avoyelles Parish, lots of folks are SSI disabled from working, but not from hunting). Methinks you're making an assumption, which, as every high school football coach will tell you...

anyhow, good luck in the legislature on that one.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Please tell us the range at which compound bow hunters shoot at 3D targets during competition. Even the long range targets, don't leave those out. I hear them bragging about how good they are at these competitions. What, 50 and 65 yards shots, stacking them? WOW! Perty impressive! :cocktail:


No idea, I just bowhunt. Never tried the 3D stuff. I'm pretty accurate out to 35 yds.


----------



## Fireemt124

Engelsmung said:


> You miss my point, or I should say, Pmantle's point: anyone who wants to bowhunt can do it now.


I am in no way calling you or Pmantle a liar, but I received this from David Moreland: "Crossbows in La are only legal for those persons who have a disability and obtain a permit to use one or for those persons who are over 60. They are not legal during the gun season for all hunters, only those with a disabled hunter permit or who are over 60. The over 60 came into being after the disabled permit became law." Right now, I will follow enforcements rules and wait for the law to be clarified before I take the chance. He sent me this after I sent a copy of the regs that were posted.( no names mentioned).


----------



## progers

Fireemt124 said:


> I am in no way calling you or Pmantle a liar, but I received this from David Moreland: "Crossbows in La are only legal for those persons who have a disability and obtain a permit to use one or for those persons who are over 60. They are not legal during the gun season for all hunters, only those with a disabled hunter permit or who are over 60. The over 60 came into being after the disabled permit became law." Right now, I will follow enforcements rules and wait for the law to be clarified before I take the chance. He sent me this after I sent a copy of the regs that were posted.( no names mentioned).




I think he was referring to compounds and "traditional equipment?!? 

But, then again, the people could have bowhunted with the traditional equipment, such as recurves and longbows, before the compound was thrusted into archery season. Now that compounds have a 99% patent pending on letoffs and the drawlock system, they are simply a crossbow. 

To introduce the xbow into archery season for all individuals would only be the just thing to do.


----------



## Engelsmung

Fireemt124 said:


> I am in no way calling you or Pmantle a liar, but I received this from David Moreland: "Crossbows in La are only legal for those persons who have a disability and obtain a permit to use one or for those persons who are over 60. They are not legal during the gun season for all hunters, only those with a disabled hunter permit or who are over 60. The over 60 came into being after the disabled permit became law." Right now, I will follow enforcements rules and wait for the law to be clarified before I take the chance. He sent me this after I sent a copy of the regs that were posted.( no names mentioned).


Dave Moreland would know. I couldn't find it in the regs,so did not comment on that. However, my point was they can already hunt with a bow, and since progers says there are 99% letoff bows out there, they can hunt w/that. I'll stick w/my 1998 MQ1, 60% letoff, or the atl-atl, when approved.

I don't stand to make any money off the sale of x-bows, so my opinion is not affected by lucre.

Well, I will leave you boys to this debate. Gotta go take a scent free shower and head to the public woods for a hunt.


----------



## Fireemt124

Engelsmung said:


> .
> 
> Well, I will leave you boys to this debate. Gotta go take a scent free shower and head to the public woods for a hunt.


Good Luck. Hope the big one steps out. Too bad of weather coming in here to hunt. Looks I'll be busier playing fireman than hunter


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Dave Moreland would know. I couldn't find it in the regs,so did not comment on that. However, my point was they can already hunt with a bow, and since progers says there are 99% letoff bows out there, they can hunt w/that. I'll stick w/my 1998 MQ1, 60% letoff, or the atl-atl, when approved.
> 
> I don't stand to make any money off the sale of x-bows, so my opinion is not affected by lucre.
> 
> Well, I will leave you boys to this debate. Gotta go take a scent free shower and head to the public woods for a hunt.




Good luck with your hunt.

Oh, and by the way, we are making NOTHING off of this. We are not members of an xbow company or do we even associate with any. All we are is just an everyday hunter, just like yourself, that has had an earful of the prejudice that is spewed out at the crossbow community, that is all. I do not know anyone personally who hunts with an xbow mustless owns one!

Happy Hunting!


----------



## progers

*xbows are more like guns???*


----------



## ChadD

*progers*

Just to throw a wrench in things a bit, your senior numbers are a bit skewed, to say the least...Seniors had to start buying the $5 license who were of age after a certain date....the number of senior hunters did grow, but probably not by as much as it says they did...they just had a better way of tracking it...or least, of tracking some of them...

The numbers you posted on deer killed by ALL hunters is purely an estimate....the only data they have to base it on is less than 1/3 of all lands in LA, then they extrapolate and figure an average of all lands by multiplying....non-DMAP lands tend to be much higher in the buck kill department....

As far as big bucks, big does comment....not big bucks big does....more like Quality herds that are in balance with the habitat, with more balanced sex ratios, balanced age structure, healthier populations (not neccessarily number wise), more older age bucks (doesn't have to be BIG bucks....just not spike bucks), and better overall hunting experience...MS saw it with their 4 point rule....surely not growing "trophy" bucks with a 4 point rule, but are growing better quality bucks.

AR saw it with a 3 on one side rule....again, same as MS. GA saw it with a 2 buck limit...everyone sees it but LA....

Not to be confrontational either, but after not checking this for a couple of days...I have noticed that you are starting to badger a bit on some of the guys who are in this discussion...Allow the mod to moderate, and stick with presenting your facts instead of telling others that they aren't....just a tip...would hate to see something happen like happened at the other board...there will be enough come out of this already that people will not want to....


----------



## ChadD

*Btw*

By the way, your comparison above is based on a compound that shoot 319 feet per second...what percentage, or how many compounds shoot that fast???I know there are a couple, but don't think them to be common place by any means....maybe I am just in the dark on this....


----------



## progers

ChadD said:


> Just to throw a wrench in things a bit, your senior numbers are a bit skewed, to say the least...Seniors had to start buying the $5 license who were of age after a certain date....the number of senior hunters did grow, but probably not by as much as it says they did...they just had a better way of tracking it...or least, of tracking some of them...
> 
> The numbers you posted on deer killed by ALL hunters is purely an estimate....the only data they have to base it on is less than 1/3 of all lands in LA, then they extrapolate and figure an average of all lands by multiplying....non-DMAP lands tend to be much higher in the buck kill department....
> 
> As far as big bucks, big does comment....not big bucks big does....more like Quality herds that are in balance with the habitat, with more balanced sex ratios, balanced age structure, healthier populations (not neccessarily number wise), more older age bucks (doesn't have to be BIG bucks....just not spike bucks), and better overall hunting experience...MS saw it with their 4 point rule....surely not growing "trophy" bucks with a 4 point rule, but are growing better quality bucks.
> 
> AR saw it with a 3 on one side rule....again, same as MS. GA saw it with a 2 buck limit...everyone sees it but LA....
> 
> Not to be confrontational either, but after not checking this for a couple of days...I have noticed that you are starting to badger a bit on some of the guys who are in this discussion...Allow the mod to moderate, and stick with presenting your facts instead of telling others that they aren't....just a tip...would hate to see something happen like happened at the other board...there will be enough come out of this already that people will not want to....



Quality bucks mean better rack bucks. All bucks are quality for eating unless they are undernurished, which they are not. 

For you to actually throw a wrench into anything, you have to provide the PROOF to back up what you say. You can not just say that in your opinion you believe the state is wrong. Bring proof to the table.

I am presenting facts. We will be gladly to review all facts. If the facts can show that xbows will hurt as a whole, then I stand behind you. 



It doesn't matter of the percentage as long as they have them on the market, available to the consumer and there are no restrictions on compounds FPS limits. At this point, you simply have individual choices on the compouds based on personal brands to being able to afford the "big daddy of compounds."


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> Quality bucks mean better rack bucks. All bucks are quality for eating unless they are undernurished, which they are not.
> 
> For you to actually throw a wrench into anything, you have to provide the PROOF to back up what you say. You can not just say that in your opinion you believe the state is wrong. Bring proof to the table.
> 
> I am presenting facts. We will be gladly to review all facts. If the facts can show that xbows will hurt as a whole, then I stand behind you.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter of the percentage as long as they have them on the market, available to the consumer and there are no restrictions on compounds FPS limits. At this point, you simply have individual choices on the compouds based on personal brands to being able to afford the "big daddy of compounds."


Well stated!


----------



## doctariAFC

ChadD said:


> By the way, your comparison above is based on a compound that shoot 319 feet per second...what percentage, or how many compounds shoot that fast???I know there are a couple, but don't think them to be common place by any means....maybe I am just in the dark on this....


This is an accepted FPS comparison. Certainly some bows will shoot slower and some will shoot faster. Knock off 10 or fifteen miles per hour, if you wish, if it makes you happy. However, this table is fact, crhonographing was done, and because it illustrates that a crossbow is truly only marginally faster than a compound bow, you attempt to poke the holes in it. I'm sorry, but this is ignoring facts because they do not support your belief.

Part of getting educated on an issue is to learn about the facts. If you wish to conduct your own tests, have at it, then submit your findings. Be sure to document everything that you used and how you conducted your tests with your independent study.


----------



## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> So how does adding crossbows to the bowseason help? Oh right, b/c they're easier to use, easier to be more accurate with, you don't need to draw in the deer's presence, and they have a longer range.
> 
> I've drawn my bow once this year, and while the tracking took two hours, harvested the doe. The only other deer within range was a 40lb fawn, and a deeeeep woods doe w/o my cart. So i'm 1/30+ hunts, and feel sorry for the 30K bowhunters who 0-fered this year. I hope they come back next year, but their numbers are dropping?(at least according to whichever statistic is correct?)



crossbows are not more accurate, and do not have a longer range and the "drawing the the deer's presence" is changed to raising and aiming in the deer's presence

anyone think they can hold my crossbow steady from a standing position longer than I can hold their compound steady?


----------



## progers

Wow, talk about disadvantages.


----------



## ChadD

*just to clarify*

To clarify, I simply asked a question about the feet per second, mph, etc....I did not dispute it, did not say it wasn't accurate, i asked a question. You guys are starting to get testy.

progers, what I presented with regard to bucks, quality bucks, and deer herd health are facts...hunters are leaving for other states, and that is a fact. I have more surveys of hunters of this state with regard to this type of thing than you could possibly hope to get total signatures...throw in how many hunters names I have on this type of stuff, and well, we would be well in the tens of thousands...and thats just from the last couple of years. What I brought up was in relation to factual numbers about hunters leaving...you asked why, and I told you why...now, apparently, you are upset that the overwhelming majority of the hunters in this state apparently don't have the same mind set as you do when it comes to deer management. For that, I feel for you. It is sometimes upseting to be on the outside looking in and not know why everyone is going the opposite way from you.

As I told you before, I am not entering this debate about the crossbow with you anymore...I was advised to participate only to lend out info about the state of the deer herd, and things relating to it....never fear, though, we will be having a discussion before too long about our debate that we have already had.

BTW, do not try to call me out on the whole "big racks" baloney...That is one area that I have just a bit of knowledge on, even though I don't know much about the xbows....what I have presented to this point has been nothing but facts on that...that is one debate and issue you can not win....


----------



## progers

ChadD said:


> To clarify, I simply asked a question about the feet per second, mph, etc....I did not dispute it, did not say it wasn't accurate, i asked a question. You guys are starting to get testy.
> 
> progers, what I presented with regard to bucks, quality bucks, and deer herd health are facts...hunters are leaving for other states, and that is a fact. I have more surveys of hunters of this state with regard to this type of thing than you could possibly hope to get total signatures...throw in how many hunters names I have on this type of stuff, and well, we would be well in the tens of thousands...and thats just from the last couple of years. What I brought up was in relation to factual numbers about hunters leaving...you asked why, and I told you why...now, apparently, you are upset that the overwhelming majority of the hunters in this state apparently don't have the same mind set as you do when it comes to deer management. For that, I feel for you. It is sometimes upseting to be on the outside looking in and not know why everyone is going the opposite way from you.
> 
> As I told you before, I am not entering this debate about the crossbow with you anymore...I was advised to participate only to lend out info about the state of the deer herd, and things relating to it....never fear, though, we will be having a discussion before too long about our debate that we have already had.
> 
> BTW, do not try to call me out on the whole "big racks" baloney...That is one area that I have just a bit of knowledge on, even though I don't know much about the xbows....what I have presented to this point has been nothing but facts on that...that is one debate and issue you can not win....



I never said I was personally against "management." What I said was that not ALL people are into hunting for horns. I was making a point that the hunters leaving LA was for "trophy hunts" more than anything. They're not leaving because there ain't no deer. We have quality deer. We are lacking quality bucks, yes. That doesn't reflect on the overall deer population.

So, what are your sources telling you about the deer herd in Louisiana?

I would love to hear your plans for "buck management" as I am starting a program on my private land. I'm all for that. 

Just curious, if you shoot a big buck that is hopped up on vitiams and minerals with a crossbow, will it blow up or something?


----------



## progers

Kenny Borel said:


> Sure looks like more Louisiana bowhunters are *against* it than for it, HUH. :shade: I'll not debate here. I'll fight it where it counts- in the Legislature.:fencing: Both the *BSBA* and the *Louisiana Wildlife Federation* are *against* crossbow use for the general public. As stated earlier, in La. one CAN use a crossbow *IF* they are* LEGITIMATELY* handicapped or are over 65 yrs old. We have NO problem with that and intend to keep it that way. This is my one and only reply to this thread.
> P.S. Look at the post counts as you are reading this!!!!





Intresting comment.

Does this letter to the LDWF Commission sound familiar?
(I left off names to protect the guilty.) 



> As an avid bowhunter and member of the BSBA, I STRONGLY OPPOSE any new or amended legislation that would permit the use of drawloc devices or crossbows during regular archery season. Such legislation would corrupt the traditional values held dear by the true bowhunting populous of this state. I implore you to cast a NAY vote against any such introduction or amendment.
> 
> Thanking you, I am



Or the reply from him?



> J****, after looking at this issue for a long time, I have changed my mind on this issue and support this. When you look at the Compound Bows, that is a big difference over the long bow and we need to make it easier to hunt and we need to get more people hunting.
> Henry



Or the letter back to the LDWFC?



> Mr. H*****,
> My argument is this: Hunting with a crossbow is equivalent to hunting with a small caliber firearm. To allow this during regular archery season effectually takes the season away from the state's existing bowhunters. If the real goal of the LDWF is to "get more people hunting" and to "make it easier to hunt", I don't see this as a primary means of achieving either.





I really liked this comment:



> Are you sure about the legislature/commission issue? I recently read some of the statutes because of the archerytalk thread, and my recollection is that the statutes have room for the commission to alter the seasons in such a way as to allow crossbows in archery season if they so choose.




Ok, that was probably hitting below the belt. I will pull my puches back up. But, this is vital info for us. I had to pass it on. 

now we know it is just the BSBA that is against the use of xbows. That wouldn't be a "sponsor" thing now, would it? Just curious.


----------



## Jim C

I always get a major chuckle when people using releases and high letoff compounds start whining how xbows ruin the "traditional nature" of archery.

why can't those who oppose crossbows just come out and be honest about it and say they want to be able to hunt with their bow but they don't want anyone else to shoot "their deer"?

the minute compounds were allowed in the season, the term traditional no longer had any relevance to the archery season


----------



## cynic

Jim C said:


> I always get a major chuckle when people using releases and high letoff compounds start whining how xbows ruin the "traditional nature" of archery.
> 
> why can't those who oppose crossbows just come out and be honest about it and say they want to be able to hunt with their bow but they don't want anyone else to shoot "their deer"?
> 
> the minute compounds were allowed in the season, the term traditional no longer had any relevance to the archery season


I second that.


----------



## thesource

I always get a major chuckle when people imply a crossbow is the same as a compound.

I would like to see you try to shoot them both one handed....lol


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> I always get a major chuckle when people imply a crossbow is the same as a compound.
> 
> I would like to see you try to shoot them both one handed....lol



I'm not sure what you are getting at but, I will accept that challenge...

http://www.drawloc.com/draw_loc_dl_24_compound_bow.htm


You can draw and lock the compound with one foot and one hand and hold it with one hand and use a string or something attached to the quick release to your mouth. Therefore, you can shoot a compound with one hand tied behind your back.

http://www.drawloc.com/images/draw_loc_how_to_use.gif


----------



## thesource

Lol - I would enjoy watching you try that!

You bring up a good point, though - the drawlok seems like an excellent compromise between between bow and crossbow for those who need the help with drawing


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I always get a major chuckle when people imply a crossbow is the same as a compound.
> 
> I would like to see you try to shoot them both one handed....lol


http://bayououtdoors.netfreehost.com/viewtopic.php?p=6801&mforum=bayououtdoors#6801


----------



## thesource

That's why you crossbow guys are so much fun....

You understand the point, but squirm to find a way out from under it. Technically, that would be shooting with 1 hand AND a mouth, while your toy can be shot with a single hand. But you already knew that of course.

Intellectually dishonest, but fun to watch!


----------



## cynic

Since you have obviously looked at the pics I am going to assume that the comment was directed towards. I do take offense to being termed Intellectually dishonest, but fun to watch!. 

Actually I'm not squirming out from under the point. I simply have proven that the xbow is not any easier and a cbow can be effectively drawn and shot using only 1 hand as you asked. Now the fact is, I can say, I have done and shot both one handed and at the same time, can you? I can speak from actual documented experience (by Pictures and witnesses). So now that you thought that there would be a problem doing that, I've got a challenge for you Buy rent or barrow a xbow and go harvest a deer. I would like to see that since it is soooooo easy and it takes no skills except holding the xbow


----------



## thesource

Oh -

you are one of those type of guys.

Semantics is your game.


OK - 2 can play. You have NEVER shot a bow one handed - maybe one hand and your mouth...not the same. To say otherwise is being dishonest.

I never said hunting skill was not required with an xbow - but bowhunting skills aren't required, since shooting a crossbow requires no ARCHERY skills.

I'll skip your challenge - Besides the fact it is illegal where I live, I have no desire to hunt with a crossbow. 

Don't take offense. I'm not directing anything at anyone in particular. I think its fun to watch people spin and maneuver around the truth. Most people aren't nearly as clever as they think they are.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Oh -
> 
> you are one of those type of guys.
> 
> Semantics is your game.
> 
> 
> OK - 2 can play. You have NEVER shot a bow one handed - maybe one hand and your mouth...not the same. To say otherwise is being dishonest.
> 
> I never said hunting skill was not required with an xbow - but bowhunting skills aren't required, since shooting a crossbow requires no ARCHERY skills.
> 
> I'll skip your challenge - Besides the fact it is illegal where I live, I have no desire to hunt with a crossbow.
> 
> Don't take offense. I'm not directing anything at anyone in particular. I think its fun to watch people spin and maneuver around the truth. Most people aren't nearly as clever as they think they are.




Bow hunting skills consist mainly on knowing the trajectory of the arrow you shoot. Anything other than that is "technique." You acquire different techniques as you shoot a recurve, longbow, compound and/or crossbow. Hunting the deer is "hunting skills" so, don't bother explaing draw "techiques."

You said "Try shooting them both with one hand." and the man showed yuo how it could be done. Now, you squirming out from under the point and playing the Intellectually dishonest game.

Simply put, you were proven WRONG!


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I think its fun to watch people spin and maneuver around the truth. Most people aren't nearly as clever as they think they are.


After reading this I can not agree with you more. All I ask is where did you get all those moves.
Do you think Bowtech Should not be used during archery season since they clearly state "taking the arch out of archery".
Definition: archery: use of bow and arrow.
A bow by definition 
1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.
Definition: arrow: missile shot from bow
Is it not true that a xbow derives its power from the bending and recovering of the limbs? and it shoots arrow/bolt.
You will say it doesn't shoot arrows it shoots bolt. You will say a rifle shoots bullets. I will say they shoot projectiles all in all they are the same no matter what name you put on them


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> You will say it doesn't shoot arrows it shoots bolt. You will say a rifle shoots bullets. I will say they shoot projectiles all in all they are the same no matter what name you put on them


I will say - Wow, If they are all the same, are you advocating we now allow rifles in Archery? 


You guys (in general) are ridiculous. If it were as simple and straightforward as you say, there would be NO controversy. Yet the premier organization in all of bowhunting says that a crossbow is not a bow .... must be more to it then you are letting on.

Have fun trying to convince yourselves- if you say that a crossbow is a bow often enough, maybe the majority of us will just start believing it too.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I always get a major chuckle when people imply a crossbow is the same as a compound.
> 
> I would like to see you try to shoot them both one handed....lol



Ever heard of Jeff Fabry?

I didn't think so but no one implies they are the same-those of us who are well versed in both kinds of bows think its idiotic for them to be treated differently by game departments and note that the reason why people wish to do so has nothing to do with the bow but rather due to greed and selfishness


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Oh -
> 
> you are one of those type of guys.
> 
> Semantics is your game.
> 
> 
> OK - 2 can play. You have NEVER shot a bow one handed - maybe one hand and your mouth...not the same. To say otherwise is being dishonest.
> 
> I never said hunting skill was not required with an xbow - but bowhunting skills aren't required, since shooting a crossbow requires no ARCHERY skills.
> 
> I'll skip your challenge - Besides the fact it is illegal where I live, I have no desire to hunt with a crossbow.
> 
> Don't take offense. I'm not directing anything at anyone in particular. I think its fun to watch people spin and maneuver around the truth. Most people aren't nearly as clever as they think they are.


what are archery skills? dealing with the short range and trajectory of the weapon is an archery skill so yes a crossbow requires archery skills

the compound bow removed the skills that take the most time to develop in archery

1) managing the weight

2) aiming without a sight and a peep sight

3) the finger release

4) string alignment

once compound bows were allowed the arguments against crossbows disappeared and all this talk about archery skills is a facade-the real reason is keeping people out of a season that some think is too "crowded"


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> once compound bows were allowed the arguments against crossbows disappeared and all this talk about archery skills is a facade-the real reason is keeping people out of a season that some think is too "crowded"



So what I hear you saying is that you agree that crossbows require no archery skills, but you would like to add that compounds also require less archery skill than traditional equipment.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> no one implies they are the same-those of us who are well versed in both kinds of bows think its idiotic for them to be treated differently by game departments and note that the reason why people wish to do so has nothing to do with the bow but rather due to greed and selfishness



Where have you been? Many on your side imply they are the same. You yourself they were 98% similar.

I think the greed and selfishness is on the part of those who would force their weapon into an existing season, regardless of the differences.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> So what I hear you saying is that you agree that crossbows require no archery skills, but you would like to add that compounds also require less archery skill than traditional equipment.


I guess you were unable to actually understand what I said-that all require some archery skills

why do you make archery skills an issue when its bowhunting skills that are needed and as I have noted, most of my joad kids-most who have never hunted, have far superior archery skills compared to most bowhunters

why do you try to divide and create separation among bowhunters over a small part of the skills needed to successfully bowhunt when your real argument is basically one based on greed?

No one seriously believes that those who whine about xbows do so out of some goal to preserve "archery skills"

there have been enough admissions by antis on this board that the opposition is because they don't want anyone else competing for "Their" deer

lets drop the facade Source and argue about whether more or less bowhunters is a good idea rather than playing stupid semantic games by pretending a crossbow isn't a bow or part of archery

that is a silly pretext serving to camoflauge the real argument that I am willing to deal with but some of you apparently will not


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Where have you been? Many on your side imply they are the same. You yourself they were 98% similar.
> 
> I think the greed and selfishness is on the part of those who would force their weapon into an existing season, regardless of the differences.



again, you can't prove you are harmed by allowing another taxpayer and citizen to use his choice of bow-I can prove selfishness based on lies hurts people who want to use crossbows


----------



## thesource

Why do I have to prove harm when You can't even prove its a bow - I don't even know why you keep calling it one.

P&Y, the preeminent bowhunting club in the world, disagrees.

Most states legal definition of a bow do not include your crossbow - including your state of Ohio, the bastion of crossbows.  They are referred to separately and uniquely.

The harm, by the way is obvious if you look at battleground states like KY. Bowhunters and Crossbow hunters may forever be at each others throats there. Why? - because crossbows forced themselves into bowseason, cheating the whole way.

I doubt that the bowhunters of KY will ever forgive them, or even associate with them. Who can blame them?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Why do I have to prove harm when You can't even prove its a bow - I don't even know why you keep calling it one.
> 
> P&Y, the preeminent bowhunting club in the world, disagrees.
> 
> Most states legal definition of a bow do not include your crossbow - including your state of Ohio, the bastion of crossbows. They are referred to separately and uniquely.
> 
> The harm, by the way is obvious if you look at battleground states like KY. Bowhunters and Crossbow hunters may forever be at each others throats there. Why? - because crossbows forced themselves into bowseason, cheating the whole way.
> 
> I doubt that the bowhunters of KY will ever forgive them, or even associate with them. Who can blame them?


You have an opinion I have an opinion

when there are competing opinions in court, the jury then has to look at the credentials of those offering opinions. I submit that my knowledge of archery is far superior to yours. Given you only post anti crossbow posts and I am well known on this board for stuff other than crossbows I think its fair to say I have a far greater knowledge of archery than you do. You can google my name (which many have done) and find my archery experience and contributions. That is not true with you

You claim a crossbow isn't a bow-I say otherwise. the fact is the National Archery Association and the ATA agree with me. You can't find any group that has the same credibility as those groups who agree with you

once again, opinions are worth only as much as the credibility of those who utter them


----------



## thesource

Please.

Everyone knows its not the credentials that matter, its the credibility. 

No one cares about your "archery credentials" but you, Jim. You've squandered your credibility with statements like the 98%, throwing around bigot and apartheid, and railing against NYB and P&Y.

In the end, you were right with your very first statement:


Jim C said:


> You have an opinion I have an opinion


As far as your next point goes:


Jim C said:


> You claim a crossbow isn't a bow-I say otherwise. the fact is the National Archery Association and the ATA agree with me. You can't find any group that has the same credibility as those groups who agree with you


I have Pope & Young, all 50 State Bowhunting Organizations, and the legal definition of most (if not all) states. You've been trumped.

Pretty fair shooting, if I say so myself.

In addition, I believe you are overrepresenting ATA when you say they define a crossbow as a bow. Seems they are for crossbow hunting seasons - not necessarily in conjunction with bows, now mind you. Sounds a lot like my position.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Please.
> 
> Everyone knows its not the credentials that matter, its the credibility.
> 
> No one cares about your "archery credentials" but you, Jim. You've squandered your credibility with statements like the 98%, throwing around bigot and apartheid, and railing against NYB and P&Y.
> 
> In the end, you were right with your very first statement:
> 
> 
> As far as your next point goes:
> 
> 
> I have Pope & Young, all 50 State Bowhunting Organizations, and the legal definition of most (if not all) states. You've been trumped.
> 
> Pretty fair shooting, if I say so myself.
> 
> In addition, I believe you are overrepresenting ATA when you say they define a crossbow as a bow. Seems they are for crossbow hunting seasons - not necessarily in conjunction with bows, now mind you. Sounds a lot like my position.


you confuse groups that are formed to protect the selfish interests of their members with groups that promote archery-in all forms.

you confuse archery with bowhunting

its honest to say that a 30 pound olympic recurve bow complete with clicker (which makes shooting a broadhead impossible) is not a bow suitable for bowhunting

Its honest to say that the easton X10 arrows that hold the world target records are not proper hunting shafts

its dishonest to say that because a bow does not meet your definition of suitable hunting tackle also means its not "archery"

you all lose when you say that crossbows aren't bows or aren't part of archery

this is done because its an opinion and easier to "defend" than admitting the real reasons why you are against crossbows.

its easier than trying to prove the ridiculous assertions that xbows are more efficient or "unfair" compared to compounds

basing your opinion on what state laws are is silly because 1) those laws are based upon the distortions and lies provided by people who think like you and 2) when a majority of states allow xbows into the archery season, your main reason for opposing them (or I should say your main argument supporting your true reason) evaporates


----------



## progers

DougK said:


> Source is still stuck on stupid.
> 
> CrossBOW..
> 
> why does he care?



AMEN!


My grandpa always told me if you ignore a dog long enough, he will move on along. 


That is my suggestion. As this individual brings no facts to the table what so ever, we have nothing to speak with him about. Apparently it is just crazed ramblings from someone who is bored and is trying to distract from the truth.

Let him discuss those things with his self. Or submit them to the other side for their defense.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you confuse groups that are formed to protect the selfish interests of their members with groups that promote archery-in all forms.
> 
> you confuse archery with bowhunting


Once again, you have it wrong - exactly backwards, as a matter of fact.

YOU confuse bowhunting with archery.

Play with your toys at the range until the end of time, and NOONE will care.

Its all about bowhunting, and bows for hunting. You need to be able to understand the difference before we can have an intelligent conversation.


----------



## thesource

I've heard about your "friend" many times before - you 2 must be close.

When I talk to folks about this issue, I hear bowhunters who want no part of crossbows. They hate the idea of crossbows, complain about the sort of people who might use a crossbow, wouldn't be caught dead with a crossbow, and say they would never associate with anyone who would actually use a crossbow to hunt with. I am considered "overly tolerant" with regards to this issue....what does that tell you?

If you think you are gaining ground, you still have a long, long way to go.

Bowhunting will be damaged severely and for a long time if crossbows come to my neck of the woods. You must have absolutely no idea how much regular bowhunters despise them and what they have come to stand for.


----------



## flatdog

What Pope & Young views as the proper criteria for qualification as a bow is only relevant if one wishes to have his/her name placed in the rolls.

If the objective is other than that, such as table fare. It is of little moment whether any organization condones or condemns any particular legal method of take.


Fair chase and the freedom of personal choice are preeminent and should not be subjugated to the whims of the ill informed.

flatdog


----------



## thesource

funny that you mention fair chase, since it is P&Y who has penned our bowhunting fair chase rules.


----------



## jkcckc

doctariAFC said:


> Welcome to the debate Sgt. First off, I would like to thank you for your service to our Great Nation. :yo:
> 
> Please allow me to ask some questions of you in the attempts to avoid yet another attack from the other side, ok?
> 
> 
> 
> Why does anybody want to hunt in the first place? Regardless of implement choice?
> Next, why does a hunter, who is typically introduced to hunting (big game) through firearms first decide to take up archery (I kinda think its to get more days in the woods, and a better chance at harvesting because of the deer of either sex thing)?
> Why do some firearms hunters use different firearms for their different hunts? Or why do some archery hunters use recurves/ long bows AND compound bows during the hunting season?
> 
> 
> 
> If this is a true statement (and it most certainly is), does this mean that even a hunter who chooses a crossbow MUST put some time and work in to become proficient to place the shot? Does this not also mean that the notion of you pick up a crossbow and suddenly you are William Tell argument is out the window? Or is it the imnpression that you don't have to do as much work as you maybe had to? How long have you bowhunted? Was grandpa practicing with his implements or no? If he did, well, I see no laziness. If he didn't, its his own fault and not the crossbow. Lazy is lazy, and this is not a characteristic of an implement, it is a characteristic of a hunter, and spans all implements. No disrespect to your grandfather intended.
> 
> 
> 
> So is using a compound, a recurve, a shotgun, a rifle, a musket (which I am proficient with and use all), right? The fun isn't for you with the crossbow. Does this mean it shouldn't be for someone else?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not also think that it is about learning how to hunt? The crossbow doesn't make anyone a superior hunter automatically. This is only done by the hunter putting his or her time in.
> 
> Hunter numbers are dropping. This opens up a whole can of worms in regards to Conservation Fund dollars, our ability to have an effective political voice to keep the anti's from winning their fight against us, wildlife management goals and conservation abilities diminish, land purchases for green spaces evaporate with the declining funds.
> 
> I hope I have offered you a little different perspective to think about...
> 
> Again, welcome to the debate.


ALL I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT HOW ARE MAKING CROSSBOWS LEGAL FOR EVERY ONE GOING TO IMPRONVE THE HUNTING (LICENSE SALES,GEAR ETC.) IN LOUISIANA IF THESE PEOPLE WHO DON'T BOW HUNT ALREADY JUST GO OUT AND PICK UP A CROSSBOW AND SAY 'THIS IS EASY, LET ME GO SHOOT A DEER" WITH OUT PUTTING THE TIME AND EFFORT IN TO REAL PRACTICE. sURE YOU SITE IT IN AT 20 YARDS AND YOU THINK YOU ARE GOOD TO 50, UM NO! I JUST THINK THIS WOULD GIVE MORE PEOPLE THE EXCUSE TO BE LAZY AND CAUSE MORE TROUBLE FOR ALL HUNTERS IN THE GREAT STATE OF LOUISIANA.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Once again, you have it wrong - exactly backwards, as a matter of fact.
> 
> YOU confuse bowhunting with archery.
> 
> Play with your toys at the range until the end of time, and NOONE will care.
> 
> Its all about bowhunting, and bows for hunting. You need to be able to understand the difference before we can have an intelligent conversation.


we can't have an intelligent convesation as long as you claim xbows aren't bows or that xbow hunting isn't bow hunting

we also have a problem when you camoflauge your real motivation with a facade


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I've heard about your "friend" many times before - you 2 must be close.
> 
> When I talk to folks about this issue, I hear bowhunters who want no part of crossbows. They hate the idea of crossbows, complain about the sort of people who might use a crossbow, wouldn't be caught dead with a crossbow, and say they would never associate with anyone who would actually use a crossbow to hunt with. I am considered "overly tolerant" with regards to this issue....what does that tell you?
> 
> If you think you are gaining ground, you still have a long, long way to go.
> 
> Bowhunting will be damaged severely and for a long time if crossbows come to my neck of the woods. You must have absolutely no idea how much regular bowhunters despise them and what they have come to stand for.



this argument is akin to saying that abolishing Jim Crow laws was going to upset the klan. that some bowhunters are selfish and have ego problems is not the fault of those who want all archery season hunters or those who wish to use crossbows treated equally

that you blame those who want to be treated fairly as a problem while defending the archery bigots for their hatred is pathetic source


----------



## thesource

Get your own season or stop trying to capitalize on bowhunting seasons. If you want to hunt during bowseason, buy and learn to shoot a bow.

Doesn't sound anything like Jim Crow laws to me - you can do it if you WANT to. Get off your butt, get a bow, and hunt, and stop whining about how unfair it is that you need to use a real bow.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Get off your butt, get a bow, and hunt, and stop whining about how unfair it is that you need to use a real bow.



Are you suggesting that compounds should be illegal to hunt with during archery season? As we all know that the recurve and longbow are the only true "real" bow for the traditional sport of hunting whitetail. 


The prejudice of your cause ("source") runs deep. It is obvious in your words for those of us who are not bias.

We are gaining more and more support daily across the great state of LA. You and your words here can not take away from that.

Run Rabbit Run!


----------



## flatdog

thesource said:


> funny that you mention fair chase, since it is P&Y who has penned our bowhunting fair chase rules.


President Theodore Roosevelt is the acknowledged author of the Fair Chase concept. But no matter, it is public domain now, as well as eminently practicable.


----------



## PMantle

For those of you demanding facts, I have some questions. What do you believe the facts presented thus far mean? Is La. losing bowhunters? If so, why is it do you think? Do you think guys are successful at the sport, then just quit? If they are successful archers but quit, why would a crossbow bring them back? If they are not successful and quit, and the crossbow is no easier to shoot than a compound, then why would the quitter come back to use a weapon no easier or more effective than the one that made them leave?


----------



## cynic

This has turned from a debate to an arguement with no real out come. Source has formed his opinion and that is great for him. The argueing amongst fellow bow hunters only demeans the sport. To all that share in the furthering of the sport "do not fall to the level they have" I have proven that a compound can effectively be drawn with the use of one hand and a xbow takes two hands to be effectively drawn and shot. That being said as long as I have 1 arm and no one cuts off my head I can still shoot a compound why "because a cbow is easier than a xbow". The draw is a little tough but after I figured out the best way became much easier. I shot some 2 dozen arrows thru the day just to see if I could become efficient. Once I got the draw cycle and pendalum set I can without a doubt stay in the kill zone at 20yds. To get efficient shooting a compound doesn't take that much time or work just basic knowledge of what you are doing and what you are shooting. Anchor points were the hardest because the only anchor was the cord itself. I guess that picture was more than they could handle. A picture is worth a thousand words. I in no way feel that I am a better ARCHER or BOW HUNTER than anyone else.


----------



## cynic

I was concidering trying to take a P&Y class deer self guided and filmed with my newly acquired ARCHERY shooting skills. Now I'm told that I can't get in the books shooting one handed holding the release with my teeth because I'M not HANDICAPPED and therefore must use two hands. All of these groupies are taking the fun out of real bow hunting. I guess they feel if a one armed, fat, half blind man can do it ANYBODY can and the woods would get overcrowded. Can someone tell me if it is true I can't get in the record book shooting one handed holding the release with my teeth? Or would they make an exception for the challenge of doing it? Now that I have taken game with a recurve, compound and xbow I am looking for a new challenge.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> That being said as long as I have 1 arm and no one cuts off my head I can still shoot a compound why "because a cbow is easier than a xbow".



You want us to believe that it is easier to shoot a compound than it is to shoot a crossbow?

POOF - there goes whatever credibility you ever had.

You are an entertaining devil, though, I'll give you that.


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> You want us to believe that it is easier to shoot a compound than it is to shoot a crossbow?
> 
> POOF - there goes whatever credibility you ever had.
> 
> You are an entertaining devil, though, I'll give you that.


SOurce. Do you have any facts to add to this debate? Or are you just looking to stir the cauldron?


----------



## doctariAFC

Gte back to debating the facts, not eachother. I can see the slants coming now from the anti-crossbow folks, now stating that "who cares" about the facts, what will crossbows do? 

This is the age-ole circle the wagons routine in the face of having your positions defeated by hard and solid fact. PLease, I understand your passions, but passions has nothing to do with debate.

If you cannot or will not examine and understand the facts, in the objective light that is needed (determining what is going on with LA hunting, based on fact, not feeling, and then determining whether crossbows will benefit LA hunting), then I guess you really ought not be engaged in debate.

No, this is not censorship. This is keeping the debate on topic with facts.

If the anti side cannot come up with facts regarding LA hunting and crossbows, and you all continue to whine and post baseless personal opinion (statements without facts), you will force my hand in initiating more EOP actions.

The pro-crossbow side is following the rules (for the most part). Those of you on either side of this debate who are not, get with the program now, or you will be banned.

I have a list, and the EOP trigger finger is itching again.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> You have some good thoughts here, and I am with you, this is the biggest challenge we must tackle. There is a way. I believe the State of Washington has a plan to address this. I think I may have a plan as well. At least to improve access without peeing in any property owner's wheaties


 be sure to send me some info when you plan to launch this thing....you and I good be on the same side  Not even the gates of Hates couldn't stop us then:wink:


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> be sure to send me some info when you plan to launch this thing....you and I good be on the same side  Not even the gates of Hates couldn't stop us then:wink:


Amen, and I sure will! Thanks Marvin. We certainly have to come up with the right plan to ensure we will have wildlife to enjoy for generations to come.


----------



## cynic

I appreciate the understanding Doc. I skewed only to show that what was said couldn't be done, can be done effectively. I took the challenge base on the theory and proved the theory wrong. This is not to say that anyone could accomplish this, It is only a fact that I can. I understand that the anti xbow stand is based on years of what they consider tradition..I have never seen a traditional compound bow.


----------



## Engelsmung

*got busted on the draw...*

by a small 6 and a wide 8, with short tines. If only I'd had an x-bow.:wink: However, they live to get stuck another day.


----------



## Marvin

Engelsmung said:


> by a small 6 and a wide 8, with short tines. If only I'd had an x-bow.:wink: However, they live to get stuck another day.


They would have just busted you on shouldering your weapon or thats what they would have you to believe...Amazing the difference isn't it.


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> by a small 6 and a wide 8, with short tines. If only I'd had an x-bow.:wink: However, they live to get stuck another day.


That can only mean 1 thing. You drew at the wrong time. You guys want to blame it on equipment or think that one is easier or better. The equipment does nothing until you do something. Choosing and knowing the right time to draw is a key SKILL used in bow hunting. Choice of weapon is made before the hunt starts.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Gte back to debating the facts, not eachother. I can see the slants coming now from the anti-crossbow folks, now stating that "who cares" about the facts, what will crossbows do?
> 
> This is the age-ole circle the wagons routine in the face of having your positions defeated by hard and solid fact. PLease, I understand your passions, but passions has nothing to do with debate.
> 
> If you cannot or will not examine and understand the facts, in the objective light that is needed (determining what is going on with LA hunting, based on fact, not feeling, and then determining whether crossbows will benefit LA hunting), then I guess you really ought not be engaged in debate.
> 
> No, this is not censorship. This is keeping the debate on topic with facts.
> 
> If the anti side cannot come up with facts regarding LA hunting and crossbows, and you all continue to whine and post baseless personal opinion (statements without facts), you will force my hand in initiating more EOP actions.
> 
> The pro-crossbow side is following the rules (for the most part). Those of you on either side of this debate who are not, get with the program now, or you will be banned.
> 
> I have a list, and the EOP trigger finger is itching again.


OK, of all the bad posts in this discussion, this has to be the worst. It says nothing, and is self serving to the point of embarrassment. Facts? What facts? How do they help one side or another? You've asked for facts on every post. If we could not read, we would not be able to type. Your bias is clouding your role as moderator. EOP trigger finger? Oh joy. How about adding an anti-crossbow moderator to this? You guys could have some fun.

How about addressing the questions I posed earlier? I feel(can I feel? I hope I can feel) that the responses would not serve to further the crossbow agenda. Nowhere in the posting policy of this site is a requirement for facts only. The thread starter posted feeling he has about hunters, and you applaud it as the best post in the entire thread. That's neat ain't it? This might as well be the CNN of Archerytalk. :sad:


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> OK, of all the bad posts in this discussion, this has to be the worst. It says nothing, and is self serving to the point of embarrassment. Facts? What facts? How do they help one side or another? You've asked for facts on every post. If we could not read, we would not be able to type. Your bias is clouding your role as moderator. EOP trigger finger? Oh joy. How about adding an anti-crossbow moderator to this? You guys could have some fun.
> 
> How about addressing the questions I posed earlier? I feel(can I feel? I hope I can feel) that the responses would not serve to further the crossbow agenda. Nowhere in the posting policy of this site is a requirement for facts only. The thread starter posted feeling he has about hunters, and you applaud it as the best post in the entire thread. That's neat ain't it? This might as well be the CNN of Archerytalk. :sad:




Fact: He said he was reviewing the facts for both sides.

Your Question: How do they help one side or another?

Answer: They give us a fair shake at seeking the true reasons and you a chance to not get banned for not bringing facts to the table but rather resorting to the "thread lock" tatic.




Your reply: Your bias is clouding your role as moderator. EOP trigger finger? Oh joy. How about adding an anti-crossbow moderator to this? You guys could have some fun.


Fact: I was the very first person to get a warning in this debate.

Fact: Doc is not bias. He is seeking the truth with an open mind. Something you and a few others here are not doing.



As you admit here in public, you are anti crossbow. We admit that we are anti - anti hunters, which at this point pits us against you. But hey, you are free to voice your own opinions. Some of us would prefer that you voice them in the correct forums.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> by a small 6 and a wide 8, with short tines. If only I'd had an x-bow.:wink: However, they live to get stuck another day.



The weapon had nothing to do with it. It was either unappriopate "techniques" or "hunting skills" that caused you to get busted. 

It was probably just a good case of buck fever since you said you have not been seeing very many deer at all here in Louisiana. With age and skill, you can get over the "choke" factor.

We all have to work on that early in life as hunters. :beer:


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> OK, of all the bad posts in this discussion, this has to be the worst. It says nothing, and is self serving to the point of embarrassment. Facts? What facts? How do they help one side or another? You've asked for facts on every post. If we could not read, we would not be able to type. Your bias is clouding your role as moderator. EOP trigger finger? Oh joy. How about adding an anti-crossbow moderator to this? You guys could have some fun.
> 
> How about addressing the questions I posed earlier? I feel(can I feel? I hope I can feel) that the responses would not serve to further the crossbow agenda. Nowhere in the posting policy of this site is a requirement for facts only. The thread starter posted feeling he has about hunters, and you applaud it as the best post in the entire thread. That's neat ain't it? This might as well be the CNN of Archerytalk. :sad:


The facts which have been presented thus far include hunter numbers, deer harvest information, implement comparisons in terms of projectile speed, etc. Some of this was presented by those on the Anti-Side, some on the Pro Side. If you think this is somehow biased, then I would submit you may be feeling your position going up in flames. Not my problem. My problem is getting the facts on the table for debate, rather than the mindless and counter-productive emotional malarky that serves only to divide hunters of all implement choices.

This goes out to everyone. Being the moderator, I am charged with keeping this on topic, and if you all want to have a real debate then act accordingly. I do not believe anyone posting on this thread is 10 years old, and just had their ball taken by some little girl. Follow the rules or get banned.

Further, do not challenge the moderator, or you will get banned. We can have a productive debate. Present the facts.

Which leads me to the next queston, Pmantle. I see Progers is working is arse off searching for information surrounding LA hunting. All information he can find. He is working to compile these numbers, and he even asked for some help in securing the USF&W information for LA (which I provided).

A word of advise. Why don't you put some of this work in for your side, too? Why do you not demand that fact finding be done from those who are anti-crossbow? It is very easy to state what you did, but very hard to actually engage yourself is some analysis and hard work.

That being said, PM me your email address and I will send you the LA 2001 USF&W Survey and you can formulate your counter arguments based on facts. This offer is extended to anyone who wishes to dig into this stuff as deeply as the other side is now. Wouldn't that be more productive to your side than simply saying my post sucks and I am biased? I am biased. BIased to those who will do the work compiling and researching facts. I am biased against those that do not research and compile facts, rather simply spout forth emotional statements as their basis for counter argument.


----------



## Engelsmung

cynic said:


> That can only mean 1 thing. You drew at the wrong time. You guys want to blame it on equipment or think that one is easier or better. The equipment does nothing until you do something. Choosing and knowing the right time to draw is a key SKILL used in bow hunting. Choice of weapon is made before the hunt starts.


True, and it's a skill not needed w/a crossbow, but highly important for compund/recurve/longbow. I had two fast moving bucks, and managed to get the bow from a hook, to my hand, and to place my release on the loop, all w/o spooking them. I drew before the 6 went out of range, and before the 8 got downwind of me. I actually settled my pin on the 8's shoulder before he bolted. It was a learning experience, and as a fellow hunter says, "you must be present to win"(ie. I've never shot any deer here at work).


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> The facts which have been presented thus far include hunter numbers, deer harvest information, implement comparisons in terms of projectile speed, etc. Some of this was presented by those on the Anti-Side, some on the Pro Side. If you think this is somehow biased, then I would submit you may be feeling your position going up in flames. Not my problem. My problem is getting the facts on the table for debate, rather than the mindless and counter-productive emotional malarky that serves only to divide hunters of all implement choices.
> 
> This goes out to everyone. Being the moderator, I am charged with keeping this on topic, and if you all want to have a real debate then act accordingly. I do not believe anyone posting on this thread is 10 years old, and just had their ball taken by some little girl. Follow the rules or get banned.
> 
> Further, do not challenge the moderator, or you will get banned. We can have a productive debate. Present the facts.
> 
> Which leads me to the next queston, Pmantle. I see Progers is working is arse off searching for information surrounding LA hunting. All information he can find. He is working to compile these numbers, and he even asked for some help in securing the USF&W information for LA (which I provided).
> 
> A word of advise. Why don't you put some of this work in for your side, too? Why do you not demand that fact finding be done from those who are anti-crossbow? It is very easy to state what you did, but very hard to actually engage yourself is some analysis and hard work.
> 
> That being said, PM me your email address and I will send you the LA 2001 USF&W Survey and you can formulate your counter arguments based on facts. This offer is extended to anyone who wishes to dig into this stuff as deeply as the other side is now. Wouldn't that be more productive to your side than simply saying my post sucks and I am biased? I am biased. BIased to those who will do the work compiling and researching facts. I am biased against those that do not research and compile facts, rather simply spout forth emotional statements as their basis for counter argument.


Great, then why not address my questions about the facts?


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## cynic

The difference of opinion run wild. Could someone that has time to go back and read all the posts find 1 documented statistic where the xbow would be detramental to the current ARCHERY season or is it strictly the opinion. Plz total the number of factual posts (backed by documentation) for each side submit your findings. Then start a thread for flaming for those that want to join in. This has turned from a debate to prodding for responses against one another. Each with the short quick jab. Those that choose to think that you are better because you choose to stick w/compound. I will send links to you on the history of the bow and archery. Compound bow hunters took the easy way out years ago and seem to think that they have been raised to a higher level. Even your P&Y has lowered its standards to suit compound bow hunters because so many hunters use more than 65% letoff. They were not getting enough P&Y class deer because the compound bowhunter chose to take the easy way 80% letoff. With all this they decided it was time for change. The biggest reason loss of revenue
http://www.bowhunter.com/editorial/BN_editorial_dec2003/#cont this link is provided to substantiate and validate my statement


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## Engelsmung

Jim C said:


> this argument is akin to saying that abolishing Jim Crow laws was going to upset the klan. that some bowhunters are selfish and have ego problems is not the fault of those who want all archery season hunters or those who wish to use crossbows treated equally
> 
> that you blame those who want to be treated fairly as a problem while defending the archery bigots for their hatred is pathetic source


Holy cow Ferd, did you see this one? We're the bigots of bowhunting. Now that i think about it...I do wear a mask, and I'd kill almost anything brown...maybe he's right. 

Crossbows...a human rights issue. Whodathunkit?


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## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> True, and it's a skill not needed w/a crossbow, but highly important for compund/recurve/longbow. I had two fast moving bucks, and managed to get the bow from a hook, to my hand, and to place my release on the loop, all w/o spooking them. I drew before the 6 went out of range, and before the 8 got downwind of me. I actually settled my pin on the 8's shoulder before he bolted. It was a learning experience, and as a fellow hunter says, "you must be present to win"(ie. I've never shot any deer here at work).



LOL-how many deer have you taken with a crossbow? A few years ago I set up a treestand. I put a video camera on a McKenzie buck target at the level a normal 150 or so pound deer would be looking. I got up in my stand and 1) drew a compound back and 2) lifted my crossbow and aimed it

I had a few people look at the tapes

IF THE DEER would have seen the draw on the bow he would have seen the lifting and aiming of the crossbow


I have never shot a deer ever with an xbow that DID NOT INVOLVE lifting and aiming the bow

as I said, any day you think you can hold, offhand, a crossbow steady for a longer period of time than I can hold steady a 60 pound 65% letoff compound be my guest


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## progers

Engelsmung said:


> True, and it's a skill not needed w/a crossbow, but highly important for compund/recurve/longbow. I had two fast moving bucks, and managed to get the bow from a hook, to my hand, and to place my release on the loop, all w/o spooking them. I drew before the 6 went out of range, and before the 8 got downwind of me. I actually settled my pin on the 8's shoulder before he bolted. It was a learning experience, and as a fellow hunter says, "you must be present to win"(ie. I've never shot any deer here at work).




You are partly correct with this statement. It does take "skill" to shoot a recurve and/or longbow. 

However, you can learn new "techniques" in just a matter of an hour or so with a compound. 

It sounds to me that given what you said, the crossbow could have not added any advantage. If the buck was running when you was getting ready and then he stopped for a moment, long enough to "settle the pin" and then he winded you and bolted, then he would have bolted the second the crossbow was aimed at the kill zone. 

It takes just as much time to aim with one than the other. It the crossbow has a scope it probably would take just a little longer for the eye to focus. 

Did you get this hunt on film? If you didn't then it is all just speculation.


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## Engelsmung

Jim C said:


> LOL-how many deer have you taken with a crossbow?


None, I'm not disabled. Plus, I'm a bow bigot. I'm ashamed to admit that I did go on a lottery rifle hunt, but i couldn't pull the trigger on the 17 spikes, yearlings and fawns I saw. Had Ol' Buckstrong come along, my bigotted nature would have been tested. I did locate a great spot for future bowhunts, leading to a bowkill by Pmantle, and my exciting hunt Saturday.

Is that high tech looking weapon you have as an avatar an x-bow? Pretty snazzy.


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## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Did you get this hunt on film? If you didn't then it is all just speculation.


Nah, I need both hands to shoot my MQ1. Could only film w/one hand and shoot w/the other with a crossbow. :wink:


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## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> None, I'm not disabled. Plus, I'm a bow bigot. I'm ashamed to admit that I did go on a lottery rifle hunt, but i couldn't pull the trigger on the 17 spikes, yearlings and fawns I saw. Had Ol' Buckstrong come along, my bigotted nature would have been tested. I did locate a great spot for future bowhunts, leading to a bowkill by Pmantle, and my exciting hunt Saturday.
> 
> Is that high tech looking weapon you have as an avatar an x-bow? Pretty snazzy.


Its a target crossbow-I didn't have a neat picture of the 20 or so olympic bows I own nor the dozen or so hunting flat and longbows and recurves or the wall full of compounds


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## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Nah, I need both hands to shoot my MQ1. Could only film w/one hand and shoot w/the other with a crossbow. :wink:



Fact: No you don't.

http://www.eders.com/Gorilla-Camera-Arm-p2748c496-path0,9,457,496.html


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## progers

Engelsmung said:


> None, I'm not disabled. Plus, I'm a bow bigot. I'm ashamed to admit that I did go on a lottery rifle hunt, but i couldn't pull the trigger on the 17 spikes, yearlings and fawns I saw. Had Ol' Buckstrong come along, my bigotted nature would have been tested. I did locate a great spot for future bowhunts, leading to a bowkill by Pmantle, and my exciting hunt Saturday.
> 
> Is that high tech looking weapon you have as an avatar an x-bow? Pretty snazzy.



Fact: You went hunting with another weapon other than a compound bow. 

Fact: You are not lazy because you hunted with a rifle.


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## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Nah, I need both hands to shoot my MQ1. Could only film w/one hand and shoot w/the other with a crossbow. :wink:



Fact: I know someone who can shoot a compound bow with one hand and film the shot with the other! :wink: :beer:


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## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> Holy cow Ferd, did you see this one? We're the bigots of bowhunting. Now that i think about it...I do wear a mask, and I'd kill almost anything brown...maybe he's right.
> 
> Crossbows...a human rights issue. Whodathunkit?


its an analogy to deal with the lame claim that ending prejudice against a group of bowhunters is going to upset those who are bigoted. The point I was making is I really don't care if people who whine about xbows are upset-any hatred and division comes from them, not the crossbow archers who merely want the same rights and season that longbow and then cmpound archers before them wanted


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> LOL-how many deer have you taken with a crossbow? A few years ago I set up a treestand. I put a video camera on a McKenzie buck target at the level a normal 150 or so pound deer would be looking. I got up in my stand and 1) drew a compound back and 2) lifted my crossbow and aimed it
> 
> I had a few people look at the tapes
> 
> IF THE DEER would have seen the draw on the bow he would have seen the lifting and aiming of the crossbow
> 
> 
> I have never shot a deer ever with an xbow that DID NOT INVOLVE lifting and aiming the bow
> 
> as I said, any day you think you can hold, offhand, a crossbow steady for a longer period of time than I can hold steady a 60 pound 65% letoff compound be my guest



lets stick with facts and not some half baked dog and pony show production you produced. nobody cares cares what you and your buddy looked at and deemed similiar... When are you and freerange gonna have your shoot off? He took you up on it and that seemed to get you to change the subject rather quickly. maybe he will weigh in. Why only 60 pounds...lets crank it up like a real man to say 70 lbs. what is steady by YOUR standards?( this otta get good).


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## progers

Jim C said:


> its an analogy to deal with the lame claim that ending prejudice against a group of bowhunters is going to upset those who are bigoted. The point I was making is I really don't care if people who whine about xbows are upset-any hatred and division comes from them, not the crossbow archers who merely want the same rights and season that longbow and then cmpound archers before them wanted



That is what led me here. It is not for pushing the crossbow on people but, for the rights of the hunters who should choose to use one because they want to. They are getting done very wrong by Bow Hunting Organizations. The hatred and prejudice of the "Compound" Bow Hunting Organizations has got to stop.

They deserve the rights that they have worked hard for. Alot of the anti-crossbow folks here tend to ride the skirt tails of the ones who actually worked hard for their "freedom of choice." They take more than they give and that creates "erosion" on the hunting community as a whole.


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> lets stick with facts and not some half baked dog and pony show production you produced. nobody cares cares what you and your buddy looked at and deemed similiar... When are you and freerange gonna have your shoot off? He took you up on it and that seemed to get you to change the subject rather quickly. maybe he will weigh in. Why only 60 pounds...lets crank it up like a real man to say 70 lbs. what is steady by YOUR standards?( this otta get good).



this looks like a personal attack marvin-I had shoulder surgery marvin but any time you want to shoot an olympic bow with me just show up at any of the ohio outdoor ranking events. This year's Ohio state indoor in cleveland will be the first ohio ranking tournament I have missed in 8 years.

Besides I ran Free Ranges Name and couldn't find any evidence of him ever shooting a sanctioned target tournament. Your post here Marvin is not dealing with facts and I was merely refuting the nonsense that somehow you don't have to move a crossbow to shoot at a deer.

If you want to judge people as to "real men" based on what they can pull on a bow you have alot to learn what the term "man" means


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## Engelsmung

Jim C said:


> its an analogy to deal with the lame claim that ending prejudice against a group of bowhunters is going to upset those who are bigoted. The point I was making is I really don't care if people who whine about xbows are upset-any hatred and division comes from them, not the crossbow archers who merely want the same rights and season that longbow and then cmpound archers before them wanted


OK. I must have missed that x-bow rally on the steps of the Capitol, made up of the poor, downtrodden x-bowers, yearning to be set free to hunt the regular bowseason. Surely there are hundreds, nay thousands of them, denied the chance to "bowhunt" by our bigotted legislature. If the lust to jump into the regular bowseason is so strong, why not get one of those super easy compound bows, which are basically the same as a crossbow? If the compound and the x-bow are the same, why all the fuss?

I worked in the state senate for 5 years, and every year the dog hunters and the still hunters got into a battle royale. Those greedy still hunters hate the fact that doggers run dogs across their land, chasing off "their" deer. If only they would realize it's a hunter's rights issue, and they are infringing on the rights of other hunters. Bigots, I guess. Never heard a peep about x-bows.


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## progers

Marvin said:


> lets stick with facts and not some half baked dog and pony show production you produced. nobody cares cares what you and your buddy looked at and deemed similiar... When are you and freerange gonna have your shoot off? He took you up on it and that seemed to get you to change the subject rather quickly. maybe he will weigh in. Why only 60 pounds...lets crank it up like a real man to say 70 lbs. what is steady by YOUR standards?( this otta get good).



He presented facts. Hard facts. Comparison on "movement." 

You still chime in with egotistical remarks that has no meaning what so ever. 

If your standards of a "man" is only 10lbs. then, you really need to grow up. There is alot more to being a man than what you have stated. You have a great deal left to learn in life and I wish you well on your journey.


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## Jim C

progers said:


> That is what led me here. It is not for pushing the crossbow on people but, for the rights of the hunters who should choose to use one because they want to. They are getting done very wrong by Bow Hunting Organizations. The hatred and prejudice of the "Compound" Bow Hunting Organizations has got to stop.
> 
> They deserve the rights that they have worked hard for. Alot of the anti-crossbow folks here tend to ride the skirt tails of the ones who actually worked hard for their "freedom of choice." They take more than they give and that creates "erosion" on the hunting community as a whole.


few, if any, of the xbow bashers on this forum, had anything to do with archery season getting established. As to compound hunters who bash xbows, they seem to forget that all the whining directed by them at crossbows was once directed at compound bows 30 or so years ago (and if you were to give the Compton crowd and many in the PBS cult a shot of truth serum, you would hear them say the same thing about compounds that they publicly say about crossbows)


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## Jim C

Engelsmung said:


> OK. I must have missed that x-bow rally on the steps of the Capitol, made up of the poor, downtrodden x-bowers, yearning to be set free to hunt the regular bowseason. Surely there are hundreds, nay thousands of them, denied the chance to "bowhunt" by our bigotted legislature. If the lust to jump into the regular bowseason is so strong, why not get one of those super easy compound bows, which are basically the same as a crossbow? If the compound and the x-bow are the same, why all the fuss?
> 
> I worked in the state senate for 5 years, and every year the dog hunters and the still hunters got into a battle royale. Those greedy still hunters hate the fact that doggers run dogs across their land, chasing off "their" deer. If only they would realize it's a hunter's rights issue, and they are infringing on the rights of other hunters. Bigots, I guess.


lame comparison and you know it


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## doctariAFC

Time to start a new thread. We're flaming on this one. Get the facts together, both sides, and come back with a new one.

This thread is done....


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