# Can a Howard Hill/Byron Ferguson style archer successfully compete?



## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Byron Ferguson says his style is much like Howard Hill's -- split vision -- look down the length of the arrow with one eye, see the target with the other, and let the brain merge the two into a single image, allowing the subconscious to calculate the arrow trajectory so as to hit the target.

Seems like that would be best for hunting, where you have no references other than the game you are aiming at.

But, it also seems like the best traditional target archers in the world do not shoot that way -- they use what I call a form of 'sight shooting', by overlaying various parts of the bow with various parts of the target. 

So my question -- is 'trajectory shooting' necessarily an inferior way of aiming that has no place in target archery?

Rob


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I see split vision as subconscious gap. You see both, but you don't manually manipulate the gap. I think a lot of gap shooters get to this point, especially the ones with a similiar gap at various distances. Dave Wallace, for example, knows his gaps when shooting but he doesn't pay as much attention to them as he does to making a good shot. He's a champion for a reason!

The top shooters I've talked to shoot with a gap system, not the point of aim style you're refering to. The only difference between their gap and Howard's gap is that they take time to make it perfect, Howard hit the gap and shot. He was a natural athlete though, so his quick shooting style might not as easily transfer to us mortals:wink:

As for the trajectory shooting, I honestly don't think that had anything to do with how Howard shot, as he never mentioned it anywhere. Howard was a gapper to a degree. Byron found the trajectory visualization helpful, and it's helped others (including Ken, who has done well in tournament shooting). 

In the end though there are similarities between how the two men shot, I do not believe they are the same. I do believe that with practice and consistency, and setting it up to fit your mental quirks, it can be just as effective for targets as it is for hunting.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Compete at what? I think there are certain instances where split vision may be the best way to go. I also feel that there are times where gap, snap shooting, point of aim, etc are also useful.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

As Center stated, at what? As for aiming only, at Indoor 20-yard you can get up there with the better scorers using whatever aiming style, but, at some point, it all comes down to more refinement in the aim is going to go with the guy(s) at the very top. At longer distances, that doesn't hold very well, though. The guy with a more formal aiming reference is going to start outpacing by a larger margin.

But here's the real variable. Does the shooting form style hold over the course of many arrows that are scored for a round or shoot? Your overall consistency is not in the aim, it's in your form. That's why target form works almost universally for target shooters. Here again, though, what's the game? If it's closer range 3D, with only one arrow per round, you can vary the form more away from target form.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

That is not what Byron Freguson teaches or how he says he shoots.

I shoot instinctively and can shoot competitively right up there with world champions in 3D - even beat a few from time to time.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Arc they would both be very sucessful at certain types of competiton. I would say on an unmarked shoot they would hold their own quite well. On a marked yardage shoot a gapper or string walker would in my opinion have the advantage. But that doesn't mean on any given day they wouldn't kick butt. The hard part for some to realize is that no matter what we read about how someone aims is we cant see what they see. Aiming is in the eye and mind of the shooter. And you can't see it in written text. I can tell you all day long how I gap at the arrow. And how close that is to split vision some may never see it. Untill we sit down face to face and talk to someone how they aim and then have them show you. We may never realy understand. 
Gary 


ArcCaster said:


> Byron Ferguson says his style is much like Howard Hill's -- split vision -- look down the length of the arrow with one eye, see the target with the other, and let the brain merge the two into a single image, allowing the subconscious to calculate the arrow trajectory so as to hit the target.
> 
> Seems like that would be best for hunting, where you have no references other than the game you are aiming at.
> 
> ...


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Byron has already won. He makes a good living shooting a bow (does he even have to shoot anymore?) without even having to best another archer in head to head competition. How can you beat that?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I wonder if guys like Byron that have been put (or put themselves) on a pedestal have created a dilemma for themselves. He has very little to gain by shooting in a competition but lots to loose. If he were to show up at an indoor 300 shoot or weekend 3D and get smoked by a few shooters then he would loose credibility. If he went and won, well that would be expected. He may enjoy the shoots but there must be a strange pressure that he must win or shoot at the very top to not loose what he as worked for.... not worth risking the reputation. That must really detract from the fun of shooting in the first place. Reading about Byron and watching his videos it looks like he really enjoys shooting still. He appears to be a good teacher and overall well grounded and good guy.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If you notice it's kinda rare to see a Longbow Archer shoot top of his game in muti disciplines like Indoors, IFAA Field/3D or IBO/WA Field/3D they tend to do well in one discipline like marked Field and either not shoot 3D at all or not do so well, think this has a lot to do with choice of aiming, they find an aiming method that works for their particular discipline and hone it to a very high level. 

I've seen Byron shoot 3D, he didn't do as good as I imagined, I'm sure he would if he put his mind to it and practiced that discipline. He didn't miss anything, just not nailing the kills and he was his normal upbeat self, just having fun like he always seems to be having.

I do shoot multi discipline and it's hard to beat the top guys, if winning was my main goal I would keep to one bow/discipline shooting but the challenge/fun of shooting so many disciplines is now my main driving force in this sport.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

centershot said:


> I wonder if guys like Byron that have been put (or put themselves) on a pedestal have created a dilemma for themselves. He has very little to gain by shooting in a competition but lots to loose. If he were to show up at an indoor 300 shoot or weekend 3D and get smoked by a few shooters then he would loose credibility. If he went and won, well that would be expected. He may enjoy the shoots but there must be a strange pressure that he must win or shoot at the very top to not loose what he as worked for.... not worth risking the reputation. That must really detract from the fun of shooting in the first place. Reading about Byron and watching his videos it looks like he really enjoys shooting still. He appears to be a good teacher and overall well grounded and good guy.


I don't know...I've seen at least one video where he does a lot of missing. To me, it looked like the person throwing the targets wasn't very good at throwing but, who knows? He still managed to put on a show.

To my way of thinking, trick shooting or exhibition shooting is just a whole different ball game.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

2413gary said:


> Arc they would both be very sucessful at certain types of competiton. I would say on an unmarked shoot they would hold their own quite well. On a marked yardage shoot a gapper or string walker would in my opinion have the advantage. But that doesn't mean on any given day they wouldn't kick butt. The hard part for some to realize is that no matter what we read about how someone aims is we cant see what they see. Aiming is in the eye and mind of the shooter. And you can't see it in written text. I can tell you all day long how I gap at the arrow. And how close that is to split vision some may never see it. Untill we sit down face to face and talk to someone how they aim and then have them show you. We may never realy understand.
> Gary


Gary that's about as well as I've heard it explained. Among my shooting compardres one guy is exceptional and he doesn't disclose how he shoots. Our other friend said "Bill, I'd love to see what you are seeing when you line up on a target."


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

No one can take away what he has already done. Ali got his butt kicked in the end but he is still one of the best boxers we will ever see. You cant loose what you already achieved.


centershot said:


> I wonder if guys like Byron that have been put (or put themselves) on a pedestal have created a dilemma for themselves. He has very little to gain by shooting in a competition but lots to loose. If he were to show up at an indoor 300 shoot or weekend 3D and get smoked by a few shooters then he would loose credibility. If he went and won, well that would be expected. He may enjoy the shoots but there must be a strange pressure that he must win or shoot at the very top to not loose what he as worked for.... not worth risking the reputation. That must really detract from the fun of shooting in the first place. Reading about Byron and watching his videos it looks like he really enjoys shooting still. He appears to be a good teacher and overall well grounded and good guy.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Byron never promoted himself as the greatest Archer like Howard did, so he has very little to lose, he can do tricks that a lot top tourney shooters cannot, win or lose a 3D tourney I think most of us would still respect him, I would.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> To my way of thinking, trick shooting or exhibition shooting is just a whole different ball game.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> ...win or lose a 3D tourney I think most of us would still respect him, I would.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Arc they would both be very sucessful at certain types of competiton. I would say on an unmarked shoot they would hold their own quite well. On a marked yardage shoot a gapper or string walker would in my opinion have the advantage. But that doesn't mean on any given day they wouldn't kick butt. The hard part for some to realize is that no matter what we read about how someone aims is we cant see what they see. Aiming is in the eye and mind of the shooter. And you can't see it in written text. I can tell you all day long how I gap at the arrow. And how close that is to split vision some may never see it.


:thumbs_up



2413gary said:


> Untill we sit down face to face and talk to someone how they aim and then have them show you.


A perfect example is the video Ricky Welch posted showing his sight picture and what he sees using his definition of what Instinctive aiming means to him.

Most of us can see his aiming technique is really no different than how many archers who aim Gap or Split Vision.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If one wants to know how Rick Welch shoot and teaches shooting - just watch his ENTIRE video - not just a clip that he did to try and visually demonstrate somethign that is actually going on between your ears.

There is no possible way to prefectly explain how one aims instinctively - the reason being is that it is subconscious - so by definition - we really don't know how we aim. Rick in the video clip that Black Wolf keeps bringing up was making an attempt to show it in a visual way - it is not perfect and he says as much. 

Rick teaches that all one does is look at what he wants to hit nothing else - that is how he aims, that is how I aim, an that is how he teaches his students to aim.

Talk to Rick yourself or any of his students - he is not a gap shooter as Black Wolf keeps trying to claim by bringing up one little clip from a video.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I have enormous respect for Byron. Not only is he one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet, but he’s probably one of the best ambassadors of archery we have today. I also admire the fact that he doesn’t just say he shoots well, he proves it on stage in front of hundreds of people, over and over again.

How would he fare in paper or 3D competitions? I have no idea, and honestly don’t care. He’s a trick shooter; that’s his game, and he’s one of, if not _the_, best at it. Outscoring him on a 3D or field round would mean very little. All you’ve done is outshot a man at _your_ game, not his. I’m sure a lot of top archers could beat Reo Wilde on a 3D course. Now outshoot the man at 50 meters in a world cup event and you’ve accomplished something.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I have enormous respect for Byron. Not only is he one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet, but he’s probably one of the best ambassadors of archery we have today. I also admire the fact that he doesn’t just say he shoots well, he proves it on stage in front of hundreds of people, over and over again.
> 
> How would he fare in paper or 3D competitions? I have no idea, and honestly don’t care. He’s a trick shooter; that’s his game, and he’s one of, if not _the_, best at it. Outscoring him on a 3D or field round would mean very little. All you’ve done is outshot a man at _your_ game, not his. I’m sure a lot of top archers could beat Reo Wilde on a 3D course. Now outshoot the man at 50 meters in a world cup event and you’ve accomplished something.


Jason, I'm primarily a target archer, with a lot of 3-d and hunting thrown into the mix. I've pretty much always judged archers based on their absolute accuracy on targets. Your post was a wake up call to me. In the future, I'm going to enjoy the differences of our many archers, rather than just one aspect of archery. Thanks for your insight.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

itbeso - that is the best post I have read of yours. Thanks for the new outlook.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> itbeso - that is the best post I have read of yours. Thanks for the new outlook.


The best thing is that, at 66, I am proud of the fact that I can change my outlooks on a lot of different subjects. LOL. Have a nice thanksgiving, Sharp.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

thanks for the variety of carefully considered thoughts. 

Have a great Thanksgiving.

Rob


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> itbeso - that is the best post I have read of yours. Thanks for the new outlook.


Some of us have been trying to show him that for a LONG time. Persistent can pay off :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Wait a minute...where am I? This _looks_ like archery talk...but...all the peace and merriment has me confused...:hug:

I could get used to this...:chortle:



Great post Jason...:thumb:


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Back to the original question: "So my question - - is 'trajectory shooting' necessarily an inferior way of aiming that has no place in target archery?"
I think it depends upon the game. As mentioned various archers are best at various games. And there is ample evidence hereabouts that many of us think in different ways, some incomprehensible to others. And we tend to set our tackle up to match the game we most enjoy playing. 

For example an indoor specialist may use a high 3 under anchor and set up with a weak bow and long heavy arrows to be point on around 20 yards for easy aiming. An IBO or short range 3D specialist might set up for a point on range of 25 to 30. A deer hunter may set up for a similar point on but with heavier tackle. Those of us who favor field archery may set up with a point on range of 45 to 60 yards, for good gap aiming references at long range. 

I prefer the latter for field archery and long 3D. That way I can shoot well instinctively to 25 yards or so. The problem is the middle distances, 30 to 45. My gaps there are too big to be used with precision, up to 4 feet or so, I don't really know. At those middle distances I do find visualizing trajectory to help me reach out with instinctive aiming. 

I believe Howard's point on range was about 55 yards. I'm not sure about Byron's but I guess it must be pretty long as well. Byron wrote that he visualizes trajectory on some shots. I also don't recall Howard mentioning it but I bet it was part of his split/secondary vision method at the middle distances. 

Me, I shoot much like them, up to the point of anchoring. From there onward I take my time in the Olympic manner. Except on movers and flyers. - lbg


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

How does that style of shooting fare in competitions? How about the National Bowhunting competition that was held out west years ago. Many teams entered many were sponsored shooting the latest compounds and wearing the latest camo. John Shultz showed up with his team wearing plaid coats, wearing backquivers and carrying Hill Style longbows. They were given advice by the other teams that if they were serious about hunting they would be shooting the bows they were and wearing the latest camo. Wonder what they thought when Shultz and his team went up to collect the first place trophy. I think his teams won it 4 out of 5 years. They probably quit having it because the plaid wearing longbow guys kept winning it 

As Viper has said, that style of shooting is old and out dated, I am sure the losing teams in those competitions would agree


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

If I remember correctly, I think Paul Brunner was on the team the year Shultz shot a deer at 45 yards on the run to win the tournament. Bob Wesley was also on one of the winning teams and everyone knows he can't shoot


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Tell 'em Hank !


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I have enormous respect for Byron. Not only is he one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet, but he’s probably one of the best ambassadors of archery we have today. I also admire the fact that he doesn’t just say he shoots well, he proves it on stage in front of hundreds of people, over and over again.
> 
> How would he fare in paper or 3D competitions? I have no idea, and honestly don’t care. He’s a trick shooter; that’s his game, and he’s one of, if not _the_, best at it. Outscoring him on a 3D or field round would mean very little. All you’ve done is outshot a man at _your_ game, not his. I’m sure a lot of top archers could beat Reo Wilde on a 3D course. Now outshoot the man at 50 meters in a world cup event and you’ve accomplished something.


Really good post


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## gr4vitas (May 25, 2013)

You have to have a gift to truly be good with pure instinctive. I'm not just talking about competitions though, shooting static targets etc.

Take a look at my hero the man the myth the legend, Tim Wells. He shoots a compound with no sights and fingers and is capable of making some of the most insane shots. He takes his bow out dove hunting and is as successful as I would be with my shotgun.

That kind of ability is just natural (and a ton of practice).

Could he compete with the top competition shooters? Probably not, thats not how he learned and practiced to shoot (for competition) he learned to shoot to hunt, and has an uncanny ability to lead targets and take long range shots.

I guess the point is, there are all kinds of methods of shooting, and a lot of which are particular to a type of shooting. Competition / hunting etc. Each have there own merits and it's difficult to say if one who excels at one style or aspect could excel at the other.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

gr4vitas said:


> You have to have a gift to truly be good with pure instinctive. I'm not just talking about competitions though, shooting static targets etc.
> 
> Take a look at my hero the man the myth the legend, Tim Wells. He shoots a compound with no sights and fingers and is capable of making some of the most insane shots. He takes his bow out dove hunting and is as successful as I would be with my shotgun.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

I have respect and admiration for anyone who is at the top of their game but like some people...I also recognize there is something more when I see an archer aiming totally Instinctively winning competitions such as 300 rounds and/or field tournaments. There's a level of skill and natural talent there that goes beyond normal human capability to be able to perform at that level relying only on raw hand and eye coordination.

Ray :shade:


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I shoot with rick welchs method, I am far from a world class shooter. I shot with a gap method prior, they are not the same. With the gap I actually had to think about amimng, with Welchs methond i just think about the spot.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I have a slightly different question because in my numerous years of solving problems for a living (engineering) I found that the most common reason for not being able to find an answer is not asking the right question in the first place.

I don't know if Hill, Ferguson and Schulz could compete in target circles or not but, should we care? I just watched John Schulz's "Hitting Them like Howard Hill" again and I don't think he cared. His shooting style apparently served him very well in hunting and his ability to do the trick shots is pretty obvious.

I also wonder if the "form" is really all that much different. Using the "pause" button while watching the video, it looks to me like his "alignment" is pretty good and not really different than any other good archer. He advocated a bend in the elbow and canting the bow but all the basic elements of "good form" seem to be there (as far as I can tell).


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

keb said:


> I shoot with rick welchs method, I am far from a world class shooter. I shot with a gap method prior, they are not the same. With the gap I actually had to think about amimng, with Welchs methond i just think about the spot.


Keb, you state that you are far from being a world class shooter. The question is, do you want to be one? If so, you would have to assess your G.A.P. profile. The G.A.P. profile will tell you whether you should be using a gap or shooting while just thinking about the spot. If not, enjoy the level of success you can attain by just burning a hole in the spot. Either way, you are going to have more fun than not having archery in your life.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

What is a "G.A.P. profile"?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MGF said:


> What is a "G.A.P. profile"?


The G.A.P. profile is an indicator of a persons aptitude for doing well in our sport. It has only one proponent that I know of,but is espoused frequently in these threads. It is based on a persons GOALS. ABILITY. PERSONALITY. Hence, the G.A.P. profile.:teeth:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> The G.A.P. profile is an indicator of a persons aptitude for doing well in our sport. It has only one proponent that I know of,but is espoused frequently in these threads. It is based on a persons GOALS. ABILITY. PERSONALITY. Hence, the G.A.P. profile.:teeth:


ROFLMAO!!!! Well...it's NOT quite an indicator of a person's ablity to do well in our sport...BUT...it is an indicator of the aiming technique/techniques and form choices an archer should focus on trying first :wink: That's the correct use of the G.A.P. Indicator :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Is there somewhere to archive "classic" posts?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Is there somewhere to archive "classic" posts?




That has to be one of the best. I don't think BW saw that one coming. :wave3:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

It was a good one.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm proud of you guys....acknowledging that not everyone wants to be "top dog"....

Thereby exposing their OCD driven low self-esteem issues! :laugh:

Me?...I can still proudly miss with the worst of'em! :laugh:

and laugh about it....no doubt....one of my finest virtues.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> That has to be one of the best. I don't think BW saw that one coming. :wave3:


LOL...No...I didn't see that one coming. I'm actually surprised I didn't see it from the beginning when I first started trying to help people step out from their boxes.

It still amazes me how many people seem to take the G.A.P. Indicator out of context or even worse...REFUSE to use it. It's really nothing more than common sense! :wink:

It should help shed light on those that think everyone should basically pursue archery the exact same way because how certain people have won tournaments.

There's FARRRRRRRR more to archery than just competition :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't think missing is funny. Well, sometimes it's funny when somebody else misses.


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## Dsturgisjr (Aug 20, 2004)

G.A.P. profile.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

So what's C.R.A.P. :wink:

maybe *C*ant *R*ely on *A*rrow *P*oint :tongue:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> So what's C.R.A.P. :wink:
> 
> maybe *C*ant *R*ely on *A*rrow *P*oint :tongue:


LOL...LOVE IT!!!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up :thumbs_up
> 
> ...I also recognize there is something more when I see an archer aiming totally Instinctively winning competitions such as 300 rounds and/or field tournaments. Ray :shade:


Where / when / who ??? Instinctive shooters have tried the field course here - they lose and break a lot of arrows and don't come back.

Even accomplished instinctive shooters know its limitations and use some kind of aiming system for distant shots.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowwood said:


> Where / when / who ??? Instinctive shooters have tried the field course here - they lose and break a lot of arrows and don't come back.
> 
> Even accomplished instinctive shooters know its limitations and use some kind of aiming system for distant shots.


Is it just me or?...

do your two statements above seem to contradict each other?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Is it just me or?...
> 
> do your two statements above seem to contradict each other?


What he means they use multi aiming disciplines like Instinct for unmarked 3D and change to a Gap system for marked Field ranges, I've been doing it for years with good results. The guys that stick to Instinct on marked Field yardages tend to be ok out to 35-40y then groups tend to open right up, I think the 4 arrows per target is also difficult to cope with for Instinct, I normally see first arrow as good and each shot after progressively gets worse or C.R.A.P. :wink:

Not the Archers fault the way the rounds are designed just make Gapping easier. A few here know Encarna Lazaro she is a great WA/IBO 3D shooter and she also does pretty well in Field but cannot get close to Katrin on a Field round, just because Katrin Gaps and nails all the long shots and Katrin has to work hard to get close to Encarna on WA3D, both get shooters with different skill sets that suit different shooting disciplines.

I don't think it's a reason to look down on Instinctive shots when they don't do well in Field. I have met some with no Form to speak of in the first place, then they will be poor at any discipline they decide to shoot.

Some people just cannot cope with multi aiming then it's going to be hard to shoot different disciplines, maybe why we see so few IBO shooters willing to try Field


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I just want to be able to cleanly harvest animals under the 20 yard line, I missed two big 150inch deer this year in Iowa, one at 5 yards from the ground the other from a tree.

Got buck fever on the ground bad, hit branch on the second 10 yards from a tree stand. I rushed my shot and did not pick a spot, maybe in high pressure a gap method of amining may be the way to clear ones mind of the animal and focus on the shot, but I did not pick a spot I just shot I think.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> ROFLMAO!!!! Well...it's NOT quite an indicator of a person's ablity to do well in our sport...BUT...it is an indicator of the aiming technique/techniques and form choices an archer should focus on trying first :wink: That's the correct use of the G.A.P. Indicator :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


I thought you might get a kick out of that.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I'll add, I've met some great shots that do very well in their chosen specialized discipline but my respect goes out to the guys that can multi aim and shoot any discipline to a high level, you just don't see that many Archers with those skills these days. Jimmy Blackmon is one person that comes to mind, he has done well on 300 rounds, Field, Bowhunting and IBO.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

ArcCaster said:


> Can a Howard Hill/Byron Ferguson style archer successfully compete?


No way! Not gonna happen!



stop and think a second. Of course its possible. Howard Hill was himself a hugely successful competitor.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I'll add, I've met some great shots that do very well in their chosen specialized discipline but my respect goes out to the guys that can multi aim and shoot any discipline to a high level, you just don't see that many Archers with those skills these days.


That's always been my goal to be that kind of archer...who can do well in any type of competition with an emphasis on hunting.



Bender said:


> stop and think a second. Of course its possible. Howard Hill was himself a hugely successful competitor.


Exactly :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

There's an old saying...."jack of all trades master of none" very few archers are good at every discipline of archery..I do good at 3-D but really suck at field....I know that and mainly shoot 3-D and 300 type rounds...I suck at long shots 35 is my max...

To ask if Byron could compete in a 3-D tournament...probably could because he's a hunter would he win..probably not because he's a trick shooter...could Howard Compete probably so in about any aspect of archery.


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> There's an old saying...."jack of all trades master of none" very few archers are good at every discipline of archery


I think that's why Steve and I...and maybe some others are really impressed with archer's that can do that. They are few and far between. I would love to see a competition that could help define the best all around archer by having a competition involving 3D, aerials, a 300 round, pop up 3D, an American Round and a Field Round for example. Now that's a competition I would make the time to go compete in...any where here in the states!

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I have won IFAA World Fields, WA3D Worlds and placed in IFAA World/Euro Bowhunters and IFAA World Indoors (300) rounds. I think the hardest thing is finding the time to dedicate yourself to all these disciplines and it puts a lot of people off. In some ways I don't mind being a Jack of all trades, I love the competition but I enjoy all the different challenges a lot more. I tend to see what International tourneys are on close to me, decide to shoot it and dedicate some time working towards that discipline. Biggest challenge to date was winning European Field champs in Wales and then 3 weeks later winning WA3D worlds in Italy with a different bow.

Our Estonian Open is basically an IFAA Field tourney but we also run a Clout, Aerial and Cheese shoot (first to hit the round Cheese at 100y takes it home), maybe I should throw in a 3D course next year and do an overall winner prize.

Major tourneys I normally stick to one bow but local tourneys this year I've shot ILF Recurves, Longbows and Horsebows......it's just fun/challenging to do. I think in some ways it can hold you back but it can also make you a more confident shooter over a long term period.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I think that's why Steve and I...and maybe some others are really impressed with archer's that can do that. They are few and far between. I would love to see a competition that could help define the best all around archer by having a competition involving 3D, aerials, a 300 round, pop up 3D, an American Round and a Field Round for example. Now that's a competition I would make the time to go compete in...any where here in the states!
> 
> Ray :shade:


There's just one problem with holding a tournament with that quintet of competitions. All y'all would be just standing there ,gaping in awe at Mr. Rogers tearing it up. If you don't speak southern, y'all is singular, all y'all is plural.:wink: Steve, with all due respect, you don't want any of this. :smile:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> There's just one problem with holding a tournament with that quintet of competitions. All y'all would be just standing there ,gaping in awe at Mr. Rogers tearing it up. If you don't speak southern, y'all is singular, all y'all is plural.:wink: Steve, with all due respect, you don't want any of this. :smile:


Dude....bring it! :wink: Because I know I will :wink: I might even make it a little more fair for ya and take some of my shots in trick shot positions :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Dude....bring it! :wink: Because I know I will :wink: I might even make it a little more fair for ya and take some of my shots in trick shot positions :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Years ago, PSE held an event in Tucson and part of it was a speed round team event, shooting balloons at 35 yards. My partner was a legendary finger sight shooter, Jim Pickering. Each teammate had to shoot 2 arrows and bust the balloons. Miss a balloon and there was a 5 sec. penalty added to your team time. I was shooting compound, no sights at the time. As luck would have it, I shot both arrows and looked over at Jim as he was loading his second arrow. We both broke our balloons and had the fastest time. 10.69 seconds if my memory serves me correctly. Fun times and a beautiful Turquoise inlaid belt buckle. Isn't the archery journey fun?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I think that's why Steve and I...and maybe some others are really impressed with archer's that can do that. They are few and far between. I would love to see a competition that could help define the best all around archer by having a competition involving 3D, aerials, a 300 round, pop up 3D, an American Round and a Field Round for example. Now that's a competition I would make the time to go compete in...any where here in the states!
> 
> Ray :shade:


Make it a one-design shoot where everyone has to shoot some combination of Samick Polaris or Sage bits (super-rest or off the shelf) and arrows must cost less than $100/doz assembled. Then we'd be talking.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> My partner was a legendary finger sight shooter, Jim Pickering. Isn't the archery journey fun?


I've heard of Jim :thumbs_up And yes...the archery journey is fun....no matter what the type of archery pursuit it is :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Make it a one-design shoot where everyone has to shoot some combination of Samick Polaris or Sage bits (super-rest or off the shelf) and arrows must cost less than $100/doz assembled. Then we'd be talking.
> 
> -Grant


That would be fun too...but I would like each archer to bring one bow and set of arrows that they believe they shoot the best to compete with. I wanna compete against archers at the top of their game.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That would be fun too...but I would like each archer to bring one bow and set of arrows that they believe they shoot the best to compete with. I wanna compete against archers at the top of their game.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Look at other one-design sports (usually racing). The best still win, it just keeps the arms race under control. The game becomes about tuning and ability.

-Grant


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Steve, with all due respect, you don't want any of this. :smile:


Not sure what you mean by that but an all round Tourney sounds fun, I'm not afraid to get beaten, I've had years of practice in that area :wink:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Surely theres a place out west that we could have an all around 2-3 day tournament that has3-D,a 300 round,field,and whatever else makes since.

Count me in...I'm like Steve, I've got years and years of experience getting beat!!!!



Dewayne Martin


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If I don't get beaten how can I improve my game.

It really means nothing i.e. they're not a better person than me, they just shot better. :thumbs_up


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Oristimba in April shoot the IBO set up a 300 round at the practice butts then a 14 field round.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

itbeso said:


> Years ago, PSE held an event in Tucson and part of it was a speed round team event, shooting balloons at 35 yards. My partner was a legendary finger sight shooter, Jim Pickering. Each teammate had to shoot 2 arrows and bust the balloons. Miss a balloon and there was a 5 sec. penalty added to your team time. I was shooting compound, no sights at the time. As luck would have it, I shot both arrows and looked over at Jim as he was loading his second arrow. We both broke our balloons and had the fastest time. 10.69 seconds if my memory serves me correctly. Fun times and a beautiful Turquoise inlaid belt buckle. Isn't the archery journey fun?


Ben 

Sorry to take the thread of course but I have a question for you 

I have been playing with cam lever compounds shooting fingers and I have them set to about a 65 percent letoff

I would never set the draw stops because I am not used to that feel on my recurves. So I would just draw past my anchor and than settle into my anchor and shoot 

Recently I have set my draw stops so that I am pulling into a hard wall instead of just holding 

Is this better ? 

I seem to have better consistence pulling into the stops 

I do not have much compound experience and I know you do so what is the best way in your opinion 

Thanks in advance and sorry to take a thread off track


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Not sure what you mean by that but an all round Tourney sounds fun, I'm not afraid to get beaten, I've had years of practice in that area :wink:


Steve, just good old California trash talking.:darkbeer:


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Speaking from experience, yes shooting the different venues and winning at them can be stressful at times. It requires planning your schedule and prioritizing your practice.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I have enormous respect for Byron. Not only is he one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet, but he’s probably one of the best ambassadors of archery we have today. I also admire the fact that he doesn’t just say he shoots well, he proves it on stage in front of hundreds of people, over and over again.
> 
> How would he fare in paper or 3D competitions? I have no idea, and honestly don’t care. He’s a trick shooter; that’s his game, and he’s one of, if not _the_, best at it. Outscoring him on a 3D or field round would mean very little. All you’ve done is outshot a man at _your_ game, not his. I’m sure a lot of top archers could beat Reo Wilde on a 3D course. Now outshoot the man at 50 meters in a world cup event and you’ve accomplished something.


I suppose... Interesting perspective.... One thing I can say for sure is this: when I'm shooting in the basement or in my backyard, and I start feeling a little cocky because I'm shooting well, I like thinking of Byron's video where he says, "If I can see it, I can shoot it," then proceeds to put an arrow through a wedding band. .... Any person with that skill can compete at any archery event he/she chooses.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JParanee said:


> Ben
> 
> Sorry to take the thread of course but I have a question for you
> 
> ...


J, my opinion and experiences are that you are better off with some kind of round wheel setup up for fingers. Of course, I get a lot of good natured flak from the current flavor of bowhunter class shooters who prefer cams like the Hoyt cam and 1/2. If you do try a wheel, set it up so you are shooting the arrow from the center of the valley as this will allow you to overdraw or creep a good 1/4 inch either way with the arrow impacting in the same place. I always set my bow up so that I drew into the backend upswing, then relaxed ( creeped) into the middle of the valley. I feel that you want to be shooting 50-55% letoff with fingers. This will trigger a much better release than the higher % letoff. A lot depends on your shooting form. If you have good back tension, which I never did, You should be able to shoot a hard wall compound well. Looking back on just about all the finger records, they were set using round or almost round wheels (cams), which should be a good indicator of what will serve you best.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I've had the pleasure of being associated with several top notch barebow shooters and have witnessed quite a few good barebow shooters throughout the last fifty plus years and it seems to me that they all had one thing in common. They all had excellent hand - eye coordination. I think it's no coincidence that a lot of them were also very good baseball players.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

itbeso said:


> J, my opinion and experiences are that you are better off with some kind of round wheel setup up for fingers. Of course, I get a lot of good natured flak from the current flavor of bowhunter class shooters who prefer cams like the Hoyt cam and 1/2. If you do try a wheel, set it up so you are shooting the arrow from the center of the valley as this will allow you to overdraw or creep a good 1/4 inch either way with the arrow impacting in the same place. I always set my bow up so that I drew into the backend upswing, then relaxed ( creeped) into the middle of the valley. I feel that you want to be shooting 50-55% letoff with fingers. This will trigger a much better release than the higher % letoff. A lot depends on your shooting form. If you have good back tension, which I never did, You should be able to shoot a hard wall compound well. Looking back on just about all the finger records, they were set using round or almost round wheels (cams), which should be a good indicator of what will serve you best.


I'll concur with this. Last year I put together a bow with cam and half and spare riser and xt 3000 limbs. I didn't like the way it felt. Round wheels are the preferred way to go with most barebow shooters I know. However, I have seen a couple fellas shoot very well with the old Oneida Eagles.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> If I don't get beaten how can I improve my game.
> 
> It really means nothing i.e. they're not a better person than me, they just shot better. :thumbs_up


Steve, you've got to learn not to be so serious around this crowd. You would be all twisted up like a pretzel if you were to come to the states and shoot with a bunch of us barebow types. If you can't join in the trash talk on the range, you are going to be missing half the fun of being there. Be serious when you step up to shoot your arrows, the rest of the time, enjoy the banter.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i think the traditional archery is great but in the world of target shooter`s i have watched what really happens and the real traditional shooter`s are getting cheated.most of those top shooter`s are shooting some way of aiming and or string walking ,just watch how straight vertical or up and down those bows are.seems nobody in the nfaa wants to disqualifiy anyone. even byron ferguson can`t compete with these stringwalker`s. traditional shooter`s i wish i could help somehow ?may there should be a rule on those vertical bows in the traditional class ? and line judges should disqualify those shooter`s in the tradional class.good luck


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

*Serious*



> i think the traditional archery is great but in the world of target shooter`s i have watched what really happens and the real traditional shooter`s are getting cheated.most of those top shooter`s are shooting some way of aiming and or string walking ,just watch how straight vertical or up and down those bows are.seems nobody in the nfaa wants to disqualifiy anyone. even byron ferguson can`t compete with these stringwalker`s. traditional shooter`s i wish i could help somehow ?may there should be a rule on those vertical bows in the traditional class ? and line judges should disqualify those shooter`s in the tradional class.good luck


Serious?

So your saying your not Traditional if you aim or shoot with a vertical bow and anyone who does is a cheater?

Ha Ha Ha--just thought I'd open that can of worms? LOL


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Pete53 said:


> the real traditional shooter`s are getting cheated.


Are you being serious? Cheated?

Every archer has the option to choose and learn whatever techniques will best suit their G.A.P. Indicator.

It is NOT cheating when an archer uses a technique they feel gives them an advantage while following the rules!

Ray :shade:


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Are you being serious? Cheated?
> 
> Every archer has the option to choose and learn whatever techniques will best suit their G.A.P. Indicator.
> 
> ...


Before you all jump on Pete, it might be wise to familiarize yourselves with the rules. Pete's concern is with the NFAA and the rules for its "Traditional" class. I don't know what he means by the "vertical" bow thing, but he's right about stringwalking, it's not allowed.

However, I've seen a lot of clubs play fast and loose with the rules regarding these marginal classes, our club is guilty of this too, I admit. I've even seen the rules ignored at some state championships. It's not hard to understand why, at least from where I sit. I even seen the rules for barebow ignored at a sectional two years ago. However when you only have two or three competing in this class, it's not worth the trouble to protest. You wouldn't see the rules ignored at National, and frankly, that's probably the only level where you get enough in these classes to matter. I'm sure there are some of the more populous regions of the country that strictly adhere to the rules, and that's because they probably get more shooters in these classes. Most clubs I know of around the three states I compete in, can't really afford to turn anyone away.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Are you being serious? Cheated?
> 
> Every archer has the option to choose and learn whatever techniques will best suit their G.A.P. Indicator.
> 
> ...


Right, wrong or indifferent?.....(and I'll choose "indifferent")...I can see his point Ray...in that the more I learn to *form*ally apply the applications used by the best field/target archers?...the more shooting my stickbows reminds me of shooting my wheelbows.

The poundage is reduced to nearly the same hold weight levels.

The arrows point becomes a sight pin..

and then string walking?...makes that arrow point become numerous sight pins.

The only thing missing is a peep sight in the string....and to me?...this is a far cry from the mystic that always attracted me to one stringers...as the highly developed "feel/skill" which borders on an art form?...is replaced with a play by the numbers launch sequence that would rival NASA.

and at that point?...it's seems I'm right back to shooting a puny powered sighted compound...as true, hard won skill is replaced with step-by-step execution.

jmho and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Right, wrong or indifferent?.....(and I'll choose "indifferent")...I can see his point Ray...in that the more I learn to *form*ally apply the applications used by the best field/target archers?...the more shooting my stickbows reminds me of shooting my wheelbows.
> 
> The poundage is reduced to nearly the same hold weight levels.
> 
> ...



Bill, I have purposely stayed away from these threads for a while now, but as usual, I occasionally get drawn back in.  This near "art form" of which you speak, and I do agree with you where that term is used to describe an archer who is a master of instinctive shooting, is a skill that is mastered by a smaller percentage of archers than those of us who have won the powerball jackpot.

Instinctive shooting is fine for some, but others, like me, have neither the unique skill, or the time to invest in that particular method of launching arrows with any degree of accuracy that would ever be acceptable to me. If it is your cup of tea, that is fantastic! :darkbeer: But to liken a even an ILF bow being shot barebow to a compound???? You know that just ain`t so. Fingers will NEVER be a mechanical release, and string walking sure is the bomb for aiming a barebow, but it is so far away from a slider sight with a string mounted peep that they are not remotely comparable. Whether you consciously mean to or not, you are attempting to put down a form of shooting that you personally do not like. 

Once you cease to form your own selfbow and and arrows, knapp your own points, and spin your own string out of sinew, you have stepped away from the true beginning of archery. The rest of it is just splitting hairs.

Yep, instinctive shooting is art. Byron Ferguson makes it look like a Rembrandt, but the majority of archers make it look like a Warhol, you watch it and say……"what the #@%&* is that? :lol:


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Yep, instinctive shooting is art. Byron Ferguson makes it look like a Rembrandt, but the majority of archers make it look like a Warhol, you watch it and say……"what the #@%&* is that? :lol:


That is the best description I ever read about it.
:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Big Country said:


> Bill, I have purposely stayed away from these threads for a while now, but as usual, I occasionally get drawn back in.  This near "art form" of which you speak, and I do agree with you where that term is used to describe an archer who is a master of instinctive shooting, is a skill that is mastered by a smaller percentage of archers than those of us who have won the powerball jackpot.
> 
> Instinctive shooting is fine for some, but others, like me, have neither the unique skill, or the time to invest in that particular method of launching arrows with any degree of accuracy that would ever be acceptable to me. If it is your cup of tea, that is fantastic! :darkbeer: But to liken a even an ILF bow being shot barebow to a compound???? You know that just ain`t so. Fingers will NEVER be a mechanical release, and string walking sure is the bomb for aiming a barebow, but it is so far away from a slider sight with a string mounted peep that they are not remotely comparable. Whether you consciously mean to or not, you are attempting to put down a form of shooting that you personally do not like.
> 
> ...


c'mon BC...while I can understand the view behind much of what you say?...but I in no way attempted to put down anyone...or even any style...and I didn't shoot a release when I was a state level compound shooter...I shot fingers in NFAA/FAA BHFSL class....and there were many club level shoots where I was overall high shooter of the day against dozens of open class and bowhunter freestyle class shooters who were shooting mech. release aids.

And I stand by what I say...the more I locked in on step-by-step form and put into practice very conscious hard point aiming systems?...the more it seemed I was back to shooting a very "sighted wheelbow like" style again....and I just don't care for it...it stresses me out and honestly?...I don't see a big dif in results as opposed to when I relax and just shoot.

maybe I'm different....but I think your jackpot stats comparo is off a bit as well....I shoot with some dang good local shooters who have no problem holding softball sized groups out to 30yds or so...and they don't even want to talk about aiming systems let alone apply one! :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> This near "art form" of which you speak, and I do agree with you where that term is used to describe an archer who is a master of instinctive shooting, is a skill that is mastered by a smaller percentage of archers than those of us who have won the powerball jackpot.
> 
> Yep, instinctive shooting is art. Byron Ferguson makes it look like a Rembrandt, but the majority of archers make it look like a Warhol, you watch it and say……"what the #@%&* is that? :lol:


:thumbs_up 

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Bill, if going to instinctive makes you happy, then by all means, that is what you should do. :darkbeer: That very thing is what puts all of us behind the equipment we are shooting. 

As far as you having the high overall scores back when you were shooting fingers with your wheel bow, the only thing I can offer there is that you were shooting in a really small, and/or really polluted pond. I have shot truckloads of local, state, and national tourneys with wheels, and fingers just does not allow one to run with the release shooters.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> I can see his point Ray


I can see his point if he said 'advantage' instead of 'cheating'.

To even imply that an archer is cheating by taking advantage of certain techniques and equipment choices that fall within the rules of competition is RIDICULOUS...IMO :wink:

ANY archer who chooses certain techniques and equipment choices that fall within the rules to help improve their score...is SMART. I'd NEVER even come close to calling them or implying that they are cheating. To me that's NOTHING but POOR SPORTSMANSHIP!

If an archer's primary goal is to compete...it would be wise to use techniques or equipment choices that give them an advantage. If competing is not a primary goal of an archer...than they shouldn't complain about it when they loose because they choose to handicap themselves...or they should just find a class/competition that better fits their equipment and techniques they have chosen to use.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Big Country said:


> As far as you having the high overall scores back when you were shooting fingers with your wheel bow, *the only thing I can offer there is that you were shooting in a really small, and/or really polluted pond.* I have shot truckloads of local, state, and national tourneys with wheels, and fingers just does not allow one to run with the release shooters.


Dear Lord man...my club back then?..."Treasure Coast Archers"....was home to Dillard "Buck" Bucklin...the only man I've ever personally known to actually hunt with Fred Bear...as they were close friends...furthermore?...our club was the number 1 "Host Club" for state invitational shoots in the state of Florida....and I regularly shot against names like Gary Giddens, Frank Gandy and I actually coached Steve White...BHFSL State Champion four years running....polluted?...small pond?...hardly...quite the opposite...don't believe me?...Check with one Mr. Tim Austin....NFAA/FAA Secretary for the state of Florida and still is.

Look...I just voiced my opinion...not to be degraded or belittled....


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Bill, I am not trying for a minute to degrade you, or anyone. 

The simple fact of the matter is that finger shooters using the same type of archery setups as their mechanical release counterparts do NOT shoot the same scores. A simple check of scores in national events will validate my assertion. This is not different than barebow shooters not running with olympic shooters. Equipment makes a difference.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Pete53 said:


> i think the traditional archery is great but in the world of target shooter`s i have watched what really happens and the real traditional shooter`s are getting cheated.most of those top shooter`s are shooting some way of aiming and or string walking ,just watch how straight vertical or up and down those bows are.seems nobody in the nfaa wants to disqualifiy anyone. even byron ferguson can`t compete with these stringwalker`s. traditional shooter`s i wish i could help somehow ?may there should be a rule on those vertical bows in the traditional class ? and line judges should disqualify those shooter`s in the tradional class.good luck


This makes me extremely angry.

To shoot with a vertically held bow and to use a conscious aiming system is within the rules. 

But to then show up at a National level event and be told that although the rules call for a particular class to shoot a particular type of arrow, its OK for others in that class to shoot whatever they want because it was too much trouble for them to familiarize themselves with the rules, that it's somehow OK? That it's somehow NOT cheating?

You think the "Traditional" shooter is getting "cheated" because he won't step up to the plate and learn how to shoot? You fell that those of us who can actually hit what we aim for should just somehow quit shooting well and leave the game in order to allow the lops and lames to fell better about their basic inability to hit the side of a barn from the inside?

We can accept that there are great players in other sports, but here in Archery we are supposed dumb ourselves down to a grey morass of meaningless mediocrity?

Oh Boo-Hoo!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Pete53 said:


> i think the traditional archery is great but in the world of target shooter`s i have watched what really happens and the real traditional shooter`s are getting cheated.most of those top shooter`s are shooting some way of aiming and or string walking ,just watch how straight vertical or up and down those bows are.seems nobody in the nfaa wants to disqualifiy anyone. even byron ferguson can`t compete with these stringwalker`s. traditional shooter`s i wish i could help somehow ?may there should be a rule on those vertical bows in the traditional class ? and line judges should disqualify those shooter`s in the tradional class.good luck


No offence but what a crock of crap. The class is about the bow not how you use it.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

itbeso said:


> J, my opinion and experiences are that you are better off with some kind of round wheel setup up for fingers. Of course, I get a lot of good natured flak from the current flavor of bowhunter class shooters who prefer cams like the Hoyt cam and 1/2. If you do try a wheel, set it up so you are shooting the arrow from the center of the valley as this will allow you to overdraw or creep a good 1/4 inch either way with the arrow impacting in the same place. I always set my bow up so that I drew into the backend upswing, then relaxed ( creeped) into the middle of the valley. I feel that you want to be shooting 50-55% letoff with fingers. This will trigger a much better release than the higher % letoff. A lot depends on your shooting form. If you have good back tension, which I never did, You should be able to shoot a hard wall compound well. Looking back on just about all the finger records, they were set using round or almost round wheels (cams), which should be a good indicator of what will serve you best.


Thanks Ben 

I know exactly the feeling you are describing and is why I shot my SBE II so well 

I'm playing with another and the way it came it seemed a bit short 

As soon as I would hit letoff there was the wall 

I have since adjusted it like my SBE II that I have a little bit of the valley like a half inch 

Just wanted to see what was the proper way

Thanks


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

pokynojoe said:


> I'll concur with this. Last year I put together a bow with cam and half and spare riser and xt 3000 limbs. I didn't like the way it felt. Round wheels are the preferred way to go with most barebow shooters I know. However, I have seen a couple fellas shoot very well with the old Oneida Eagles.


Thanks Joe


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> To even imply that an archer is cheating by taking advantage of certain techniques and equipment choices that fall within the rules of competition is RIDICULOUS...IMO :wink:
> 
> ANY archer who chooses certain techniques and equipment choices that fall within the rules to help improve their score...is SMART. I'd NEVER even come close to calling them or implying that they are cheating. To me that's NOTHING but POOR SPORTSMANSHIP!
> 
> ...


X2 :thumbs_up

It's a word that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I went several years of being called a cheat purely on my scores, various excuses where thrown my way from Bow's not legal to I was gapping and not shooting Instinctive, it's just bad sportsmanship and bad for the sport. It only went away when a couple of other guys stepped up and started shooting similar scores.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

They have been having this event (Archery Triathlon) for a few years now. This flyer is for 2013... not sure what is the dates for 2014 http://www.hitagaarchery.com/2013schedule.pdf


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> And I stand by what I say...the more I locked in on step-by-step form and put into practice very conscious hard point aiming systems?...the more it seemed I was back to shooting a very "sighted wheelbow like" style again....and I just don't care for it...it stresses me out and honestly?...I don't see a big dif in results as opposed to when I relax and just shoot.


So because you can't make a style work for you then it's like shooting a compound? What an ignorant and narrow minded person you are. As soon as something is too hard for you it's lost it's magic, sounds like all you really want is an excuse for your shooting.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jinx, when what I was trying didn't work I tried something else...I didn't beat up everyone else that could make it work.


Dewayne


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I dont understand Jinks, if you shot so great with your Compound why does it make you so uncomfortable when you pick up a Recurve/Longbow and the Form starts progressing back towards you old Compound Form, it obviously allowed you to shoot your potential.

The journey to good shooting is hard work and full of ups and downs but once you get there with the Form it becomes effortless, seems like with Trad bows you just want to skip straight to effortless.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Hank said:


> They have been having this event (Archery Triathlon) for a few years now. This flyer is for 2013... not sure what is the dates for 2014 http://www.hitagaarchery.com/2013schedule.pdf


Thanks, Hank!! Looks like fun...but I would love to see them add an event that puts Instinctive aiming at an advantage such as an aerial target round or pop up 3D round where the archers have to shoot quickly.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Thanks, Hank!! Looks like fun...but I would love to see them add an event that puts Instinctive aiming at an advantage such as an aerial target round or pop up 3D round where the archers have to shoot quickly.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Or both!


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

I'll add another thought: I have always had the goal of shooting all the games, all the competitions, all the distances, with the same tackle and style. I didn't want to use a light bow with long fat arrows for indoor, and a fast light arrows for short 3D. I wanted to shoot the same tackle and the same style for everything and I wanted it to be suitable for hunting as well. It has gone pretty well. I have won championships shooting most of the disciplines, at ranges from 7 to 101 yards. I wanted to be an all arounder. Steve Morley and Rednef have done much the same and I am sure others hereabouts have too. I have tried some specialized techniques but did not care for them. 

So I would be glad to shoot an all around event. If Orestimba wants to put one on in NorCal next year I will hope to show up, with a longbow and 500 grain wooden arrows. - lbg

PS: I aim instinctively out to about 45 yards. Then the arrow tip tends to get in the way of my line of sight so I take some notice of it. At very long distances I look for elevation references on the bow, or my hand. - lbg


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Or both!


Ooooh heck yeah! Let's have both! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> So because you can't make a style work for you then it's like shooting a compound? What an ignorant and narrow minded person you are. As soon as something is too hard for you it's lost it's magic, sounds like all you really want is an excuse for your shooting.


I really didn't expect that from you Grant...I'm more than a bit disappointed and thought (that especially) you would know better as...



vabowdog said:


> Jinx, when what I was trying didn't work I tried something else...I didn't beat up everyone else that could make it work.
> 
> Dewayne


I merely stated that I could see his point yet remained "indifferent"...didn't beat up any one...yet it seems that pile on's were the order of the day. 



steve morley said:


> I dont understand Jinks, if you shot so great with your Compound why does it make you so uncomfortable when you pick up a Recurve/Longbow and the Form starts progressing back towards you old Compound Form, it obviously allowed you to shoot your potential.
> 
> The journey to good shooting is hard work and full of ups and downs but once you get there with the Form it becomes effortless, seems like with Trad bows you just want to skip straight to effortless.


Good question Steve...(too bad it was brought about by some acidic twisting of my post which was me just expressing that "I could understand" Pete53's point of view)...but to answer?....I guess it's just a different mentality I've chosen to adopt...and don't get me wrong...I still love to shoot great sessions...who in their right mind doesn't?...BUT...I've lost any desire to be what one might term "A Competitive Target Archer"...and have forfeited the "In it To Win It" mentality....cause to support that mentality?...you are absolutely correct....one must "work"....and work hard.....and with that work?....comes the reasonable expectation of obtaining (or not) a increase in results...which doesn't always come about....which then?...results in a certain level of stress...and work....and more work....then some more stress...which is when I have to remind myself that the founding reason I engage in such a past-time/hobby/sport?...is to relax...decompress from the pressures of life....and?...have fun!...and oddly enough?...it's more often than not...at that very moment of enlightenment that....I do my best shooting...not straining or pressuring myself to hold anything on nothing...jut look at what I want to hit...anchor solid at full form...and relax/release...and boom...there it is.

I did not intend at all to insult anyone...especially the highly disciplined who are "in it to win it"....and the work they invest to achieve that level of proficiency...but just to let Pete53 know I understood where he was coming from....and for my efforts?...I got hammered...including one member not only insulting me but also insulting a now defunct club which was at one time from the mid 80's to the mid 90's "THE" most prolific and active 5 Star NFAA ranked host club in the state of Florida...and the same club I started of as a member of...then range officer of...then secretary of...and one year VP of (after turning down pres. position cause I was starting a family)...that stung....especially the fishing in a small or polluted pond remark...especially coming from a member who obviously had not a clue of which he spoke.

Gentlefolk?...my family is going through some difficult times....without going into detail?...suffice it to say that my 23+ year marriage is on the line at the moment...which is why I haven't been posting much recently...I've been maintaining close contact with both my Pastor and my Men's Bible Study group....and maybe that's why I've sort of lost my desire to best another man at archery....in exchange for clearing my mind, heart and soul. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> I really didn't expect that from you Grant...I'm more than a bit disappointed and thought (that especially) you would know better as...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bill, Bill, Bill…………Lets objectively review what was said. I had no idea what club you were speaking of, or who the members there were. My reply was nothing more than a response to your claim that you sometimes bested the top scores of release shooters. I stated yesterday, and I will state again today, finger shooters of the highest level do not ever beat release shooters of the highest level. If you beat release shooters, the simple fact of the matter is that there were no top level release shooters present that particular day. There is nothing to argue about on that point. I never once disrespected you, your club, or any members who are/were members there.

As to your personal life……..I am saddened to hear of your trials, but it sounds like you are on the right track. I wish you the best and will send prayers your way.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Sorry to hear your having family troubles and hope they get resolved in a positive way soon. What I have discovered is the more I shoot my recurves like a compound the better I shoot my recurves..........I believe it has to do with form, aiming, taking my time at full draw to make sure the little things are as good as I can make them, then releasing. Shooting with a defined routine works for both archery disciplines. Flinging arrows was fun, but hitting what I'm aiming at provides satisfaction in a shot well executed.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Big Country said:


> Bill, Bill, Bill…………Lets objectively review what was said. I had no idea what club you were speaking of, or who the members there were. My reply was nothing more than a response to your claim that you sometimes bested the top scores of release shooters. I stated yesterday, and I will state again today, finger shooters of the highest level do not ever beat release shooters of the highest level. If you beat release shooters, the simple fact of the matter is that there were no top level release shooters present that particular day. There is nothing to argue about on that point. I never once disrespected you, your club, or any members who are/were members there.
> 
> As to your personal life……..I am saddened to hear of your trials, but it sounds like you are on the right track. I wish you the best and will send prayers your way.


You're correct...all else being equal?...release will always win out over fingers...sorry...guess I'm a little sensitive about things at the moment and thank you for the prayers.



centershot said:


> Sorry to hear your having family troubles and hope they get resolved in a positive way soon. What I have discovered is the more I shoot my recurves like a compound the better I shoot my recurves..........I believe it has to do with form, aiming, taking my time at full draw to make sure the little things are as good as I can make them, then releasing. Shooting with a defined routine works for both archery disciplines. Flinging arrows was fun, but hitting what I'm aiming at provides satisfaction in a shot well executed.


Trent...all's I was saying was I could see/understand Pete53's point...I've been there...I might even go as far to say that at on point or another?...many of us have...and I'm sure has been a heated topic of discussion many times...I guess this is just another one of'em...furthermore?...I still do shoot my stix like wheels on occasion...pending "mood"....and I'm in agreement with all you say....with the exception of results...as there have been times when I just stopped thinking about anything and relaxed and just shot..."lights out"...I think we used to refer to it as..."Being In The Zone"...or?..."Unconscious"...those precious sessions where all is right with the world and it seems as though I can't miss (by much anyways! LOL!) without even trying...and of course?...I enjoy those times the most. 

I shot tonight for the first time in about 2-3 weeks...been busy with life stuff...and I'm going to toss a post up here in a minute about it cause?...it's not all that bad.


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## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

ArcCaster said:


> Byron Ferguson says his style is much like Howard Hill's -- split vision -- look down the length of the arrow with one eye, see the target with the other, and let the brain merge the two into a single image, allowing the subconscious to calculate the arrow trajectory so as to hit the target.
> 
> Seems like that would be best for hunting, where you have no references other than the game you are aiming at.
> 
> ...


Not sure, but that pretty much sums up how I shoot. I'm right-handed and left-eye dominant so the split vision thing works out for me pretty well


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Jinks I agree there is a certain amount of stress in striving to be the best archer in the world, this is exactly why I only strive to be the best archer I can be and keep it enjoyable and FUN as possible, if that personal goal happens to make me the best Archer in the world :darkbeer: but if it doesn't I still haven't lost anything because I'm happy with my shooting.

Thinking you have to shoot to another archers criteria is going to stress anybody out, it's why people get nervous shooting in front of others, they think they will be judged if they don't shoot perfectly. The only person that cares is YOU and that's how it should be. If you're happy with you level then great if not, work harder (for yourself) :thumbs_up


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I try to only compete against myself...even when I am competing against others in a tournament.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I like to think I'm competing against myself and the course builder, some of them are sneaky buggers and catch me out every now and then. :wink:

As a course builder I have this reputation already, people turn up at a tourney and see me walking out the forest with my Thor Hammer and wheel barrow they go back to car for more arrows


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Jinks I agree there is a certain amount of stress in striving to be the best archer in the world, this is exactly why I only strive to be the best archer I can be and keep it enjoyable and FUN as possible, if that personal goal happens to make me the best Archer in the world :darkbeer: but if it doesn't I still haven't lost anything because I'm happy with my shooting.
> 
> Thinking you have to shoot to another archers criteria is going to stress anybody out, it's why people get nervous shooting in front of others, they think they will be judged if they don't shoot perfectly. The only person that cares is YOU and that's how it should be. If you're happy with you level then great if not, work harder (for yourself) :thumbs_up


Steve, there is no stress in striving to be or being the best archer in the world. I happen to be the most fun loving,stress free, fun to shoot with archer you will ever meet.:darkbeer: The stress comes from knowing you can't be the best but hoping against hope that I will die of old age.:smile: Of course, being the best starts with attitude, such as driving up to a tournament, getting out of your car, looking around, and wandering why all those guys bothered to show up.:shade: On a serious note, Your statement about getting nervous when others are watching, and then being judged is, is one of my personal secret tips to anyone who has become a good shot and is trying to live up to expectations. Scale down your ego a bit because the whole world really isn't looking just at you, don't worry about shooting them all in the middle and just concentrate on the things that got you there. There is a tendency to speed things up when nervous, I do just the opposite and become more deliberate.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

itbeso said:


> There is a tendency to speed things up when nervous, I do just the opposite and become more deliberate.


Now THAT right THERE is some outstanding advice for anybody who seriously wants to step up their competitive game.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Scale down your ego a bit because the whole world really isn't looking just at you, don't worry about shooting them all in the middle and just concentrate on the things that got you there. There is a tendency to speed things up when nervous, I do just the opposite and become more deliberate.


Good advice.

I'm used to shooting in front of people, I do a lot of demo shooting through the Summer for Tourists and Tv, I enjoy it and find it's good training for tourney shooting. WA3D is covered a lot on European Tv and Estonia being small country with some very good female shooters (they took 5 of the top 6 places at Euro Field champs this year) gets covered on National Tv regularly. You could say I'm a big fish in a small pond :wink:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Good advice.
> 
> I'm used to shooting in front of people, I do a lot of demo shooting through the Summer for Tourists and Tv, I enjoy it and find it's good training for tourney shooting. WA3D is covered a lot on European Tv and Estonia being small country with some very good female shooters (they took 5 of the top 6 places at Euro Field champs this year) gets covered on National Tv regularly. You could say I'm a big fish in a small pond :wink:
> 
> View attachment 1819375


That has to be tough, the cameras don't allow any do overs. It has to feel good to be representing our sport regularly like that. Congratulations on all the work you do promote archery and, then, trying to get a little practice time in for yourself.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks Ben, having a 4 year old (5 in Jan) and a 3 year old is my biggest challenge in finding a balance between Family, Work and Sport, I cannot just walk out the house and practice when I feel like it anymore and some tourneys I'm not able to go because family always comes first.  Summer is hard work, I'm on the go 7 days a week 12 plus hour days, winter is quieter and I mostly just work long weekends 

Paaren my oldest has been shooting 2 years and this Summer I started taking him around the 3D courses with me, he is hard work sometimes as 28 targets is a little too much for him, specially if it's tough terrain and he needs a little help/encouragement to finish the round. Again I find it good training, learning to switch on/off that focus on demand.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

That brings back memories. Back in the early 90's I was a single father. The kids and I couldn't afford to do a whole lot so we usually spent weekends and an evening or two each week at the club outdoor range. Sometimes the kids would shoot and sometimes they'd just play in the woods around where I was shooting. More often than not, we had the range to ourselves.

Since we were at the range all the time anyway, I shot all the club tournaments. We only traveled to one shoot hosted by another club. My son shot in a few. They would have been between the ages of 6 and 9 during the years we had the club. They walked the course with me during every tournament I ever shot and they were with me during each and every practice session.

They both have families of their own now. My son still shoots. In fact he's shooting one of the bows that I was shooting back when we belonged to the club. Until recently, they lived close by so he spent a lot of time shooting out in my yard...often with my granddaughter in tow.

She likes to pull my arrows out of the target and bring them back to me, though, it's not always so easy on the arrows, LOL. She's 2 and some change. My son carved her a little bow and a couple of arrows from some of my excess tree branches. It actually shoots pretty good at ten feet or so.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

steve morley said:


> Good advice.
> 
> I'm used to shooting in front of people, I do a lot of demo shooting through the Summer for Tourists and Tv, I enjoy it and find it's good training for tourney shooting. WA3D is covered a lot on European Tv and Estonia being small country with some very good female shooters (they took 5 of the top 6 places at Euro Field champs this year) gets covered on National Tv regularly. You could say I'm a big fish in a small pond :wink:
> 
> View attachment 1819375


And a snappy dresser  

Good on you Steve for all you do for archery


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

sorry i made a few angry but i have seen some very good real traditional shooter`s and they only use wood shaft arrows they made.i feel the traditional class should promote only wood shaft arrows in competition too.it`s an art that i am not good at but i have seen some great traditional shooter`s,what i really get a kick out of is a the few that shoot the traditional class but hunt with a compound and a release,is it because they are looking for an easier medal or trophy i the traditional class ? and believe me i have seen it. Traditional archer`s if you are good at it which i am not what an art you guys have with the ability to feel were that wood arrow is going . with age some of us have lost it but still wish we could do the hand - eye thing,i know i miss it.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Arrows differentiating classes is one thing, but aiming and canting have nothing to do with that. Saxton Pope and Art Young aimed, and held their bows vertically. Howard Hill aimed. Aiming and vertical bows have been around longer than the fiberglass, laquer, and epoxy we use on our bows and arrows.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

I wonder if Howard Hill would shoot modern gear if he were around now.. 

Pete, the nfaa longbow division is wooden arrows only. I hunt with woodies but shoot alloy or carbon for anything else


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i did not know they had to use wood arrows ,because in my state they don`t but i guess they should ? i may be wrong about the vertcal thing but i have watched what goes on in my state they are string walking and do get away with it not all but the ones shooting high scores have been.i just want to see that the true traditional shooter`s get a fare shake because its kinda fun to watch them with their talent . howard hill with his ability in archery and the way he could shoot off a running horse or even at animals running would not do as well with a compound they are to slow in the draw and shoot style.anyway just think with howard hill`s strength what a compound at 200 pounds draw weight would do ?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Vertical doesn't mean string walking. As I said, Saxton Pope, Art Young, and the Thompson brothers all shot with a vertical bow. Pope, Young, and Hill all used some form of aiming system (POA and gap respectively). 

If you're not happy with someone "cheating" into a lower class, speak up. If a class allows for modern arrows, don't hold it against others for choosing to use them. Personally, I use carbon because that's what I hunt with- they're tougher, cheaper, and more consistent. If someone wants to use wood that's their choice, but if it's not required for a class, it's not required.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Seems kinda backwards to change the rules so a certain style which isn't competitive, becomes competitive.

How would we police this? Will a judge stand behind the archer with a level to make sure they don't hold their bow vertical? Will there be a limbo bar that you must shoot under to ensure nobody stands upright?


The overall accuracy of your typical Trad archer is abysmal enough without dumbing it down any further.

-Grant


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

The overall accuracy of your typical trad archer is abysmal enough without dumming it down any further.


Amen...ALOT of truth in that statement!!!!




Dewayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> The overall accuracy of your typical trad archer is abysmal enough without dumming it down any further.
> 
> 
> Amen...ALOT of truth in that statement!!!!
> ...


X2 on that


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Steve, there is no stress in striving to be or being the best archer in the world. I happen to be the most fun loving,stress free, fun to shoot with archer you will ever meet.:darkbeer: The stress comes from knowing you can't be the best but hoping against hope that I will die of old age.:smile: Of course, being the best starts with attitude, such as driving up to a tournament, getting out of your car, looking around, and wandering why all those guys bothered to show up.:shade: On a serious note, Your statement about getting nervous when others are watching, and then being judged is, is one of my personal secret tips to anyone who has become a good shot and is trying to live up to expectations. Scale down your ego a bit because the whole world really isn't looking just at you, don't worry about shooting them all in the middle and just concentrate on the things that got you there. There is a tendency to speed things up when nervous, I do just the opposite and become more deliberate.


Best tourney shooting I have done I started with a 5. Then I stepped back thought about it and said "this is stupid if you were in your back yard you would shoot all tens and elevens". So I stepped back took off my shoes and shot like I was in my back yard all that was missing was a beer. 

Bring your quarters old man ;-). 

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Best tourney shooting I have done I started with a 5. Then I stepped back thought about it and said "this is stupid if you were in your back yard you would shoot all tens and elevens". So I stepped back took off my shoes and shot like I was in my back yard all that was missing was a beer.
> 
> Bring your quarters old man ;-).
> 
> Matt


Not to go retro on you but there is no comparison of the 2014 version of Mr. Rogers and the previous year and eleven months. What you will be getting in 2014 is frightening if you happen to be shooting the same class.:smile: I am starting a trust for my grandchildren so the quarters
will be much appreciated. Please don't look at the Nafac results, I want you to come to Orestimba..:wink:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Matt_Potter said:


> Best tourney shooting I have done I started with a 5. Then I stepped back thought about it and said "this is stupid if you were in your back yard you would shoot all tens and elevens". So I stepped back took off my shoes and shot like I was in my back yard all that was missing was a beer.
> 
> Bring your quarters old man ;-).
> 
> Matt





itbeso said:


> Not to go retro on you but there is no comparison of the 2014 version of Mr. Rogers and the previous year and eleven months. What you will be getting in 2014 is frightening if you happen to be shooting the same class.:smile: I am starting a trust for my grandchildren so the quarters
> will be much appreciated. Please don't look at the Nafac results, I want you to come to Orestimba..:wink:



:boink:

Somebody be sure and video this stuff for us east coasters that will not be making the trip.:tongue:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Big Country said:


> :boink:
> 
> Somebody be sure and video this stuff for us east coasters that will not be making the trip.:tongue:


The California guys are a very fun group to shoot with and they like to shoot. They flat out get their money's worth out of the hunters challenge course. I might have to start practicing one of these days. 

Matt


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Matt_Potter said:


> The California guys are a very fun group to shoot with and they like to shoot. They flat out get their money's worth out of the hunters challenge course. I might have to start practicing one of these days.
> 
> Matt


But if we practiced then where would the challenge be once we got to the shoot?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> The California guys are a very fun group to shoot with and they like to shoot. They flat out get their money's worth out of the hunters challenge course. I might have to start practicing one of these days.
> 
> Matt


I put in a special request for extended snow in Montana, at least until the end of March. That will give you a week to practice for Orestimba.lol:wink:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> I put in a special request for extended snow in Montana, at least until the end of March. That will give you a week to practice for Orestimba.lol:wink:


-5 at my house this morning - bbbbbrrrrrrrr


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> -5 at my house this morning - bbbbbrrrrrrrr


Looks like the request was granted.:angel:


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Best tourney shooting I have done I started with a 5. Then I stepped back thought about it and said "this is stupid if you were in your back yard you would shoot all tens and elevens". So I stepped back took off my shoes and shot like I was in my back yard all that was missing was a beer.
> 
> Bring your quarters old man ;-).
> 
> Matt


So what a good bare bow score?
DD


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

DDSHOOTER said:


> So what a good bare bow score?
> DD


DD

If you average over 9 points per target on a 3D course scored 11-10-8-5 you will be right in the hunt. 

IBO shoots are fairly short yardage but the pressure is intense. 

Matt


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Thanks. I looked at the Trad worlds results, but wasn't sure how many targets shot, still not sure why its separate from the compound.
DD


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I learned my lesson next year white feathers on white goat and black on everything else.


Matt_Potter said:


> DD
> 
> If you average over 9 points per target on a 3D course scored 11-10-8-5 you will be right in the hunt.
> 
> ...


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

2413gary said:


> I learned my lesson next year white feathers on white goat and black on everything else.


Mylar vanes are all but invisible from the back.

Then again I don't worry about people shooting for my arrow. If it's in the right place then they will be shooting for that spot anyways, if it's in the wrong place then it might just sucker them in.

-Grant


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> I learned my lesson next year white feathers on white goat and black on everything else.


No no say it's not so

;-)


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Mylar vanes are all but invisible from the back.
> 
> Then again I don't worry about people shooting for my arrow. If it's in the right place then they will be shooting for that spot anyways, if it's in the wrong place then it might just sucker them in.
> 
> -Grant


I like it when your up first and everybody say's give me something to shoot at. And you do, and turn and say, there you go boys, pile them in there. One shoot we had a 10yard frog with a 11 the size of a dime, after you put a fat shaft in the middle then there is not much left but tens or worse bounce off to a eight or five or miss if it turned. Plenty of time had "G" nock bushing nickup and half broken shafts. You guys sound like real fun to shoot with, no pressure right?
DD


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