# Spring vs Magnetic Plungers



## fingers81 (Apr 18, 2010)

What works best and why. Beiter is what Ive read is top of the line and what most of the top archers shoot is this personal preference. I looking at the Wifler, W&W, Arc and Gabriel magnetic plungers why are these not use as much?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I love the Beiter except the fact that it wears a groove on my X10s. So I use the shaft from the AAE in the Beiter and am moving to the AAE in general. I have not use the Wifler but would like to try it. The force/displacement curve appears to be quite different, but I have not seen actual measurements. My guess is that it is very consistent.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

It depends on the construction. I don't think one is inherently better than the other in real terms.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

They both work just fine. I have an Arc Systeme promagn magnetic button that I used for years before being given a used Beiter (I use it because it's my favourite colour). No noticeable difference in group shape/size or anything else. The magnetic one had about half the adjustment resolution since 7 turns took you all the way through the range of all three Beiter springs, though when one click moves a bareshaft only 1mm or so at 18m that resolution isn't needed. 
I've never had a visible flat on my ACEs with either button, though I did wear through the nickel? coating on the tip and into the brass of the magnetic one after many years (maybe a hundred microns), and I wore about twice that away from my black Beiter tip after less than two years. 

In ~8 years that I used the magnetic one, I think I saw one other person with one out of a thousand. The magnetic one is ever so slightly smoother than a good quality well maintained spring loaded button, though the magnetic piston weighs 4.5g instead of 0.9g for a Beiter or 1.4g for a Shibuya, which reduces its acceleration when the arrow presses against it. If either of those differences was important in and way then magnetic plungers would have either taken over from springs or gone extinct at some point in the last 20 years as each generation of competitors searched for any possible technological advantage.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Agreed with lcaillo, the beiter grooves the $#!t out of the X10's, much less so on the Nano Pro Extreme's. I have switched to a Wifler, and the wear appears to have essentially stopped. I checked on new X10's... a very pricy and dicey experiment for sure lol. 

I am slowly working on another wifler plunger for my barebow.

As far as tension adjustment, I also did not note a major difference in tuning ease or maintenance of adjustment.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Can someone please post a picture of the “groove worn in X10s” by the Beiter plunger. Where? How deep? What are the setup specs? I‘ve been shooting a Beiter button since 1996 and x10 since 1997 and I have never had this. In that time I have shot weak, bang on and stiff (per bare shaft). Mainly 410s but also 450s. I just haven’t seen it… and I’ve had some clearance issues off the plunger in that period.

Seeing is believing.

Stretch


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

UK_Stretch said:


> Can someone please post a picture of the “groove worn in X10s” by the Beiter plunger. Where? How deep? What are the setup specs? I‘ve been shooting a Beiter button since 1996 and x10 since 1997 and I have never had this. In that time I have shot weak, bang on and stiff (per bare shaft). Mainly 410s but also 450s. I just haven’t seen it… and I’ve had some clearance issues off the plunger in that period.
> 
> Seeing is believing.
> 
> Stretch


agree. never had an issue of wearing a groove with the Beiter. Have worn the ends of an X10 from too many shots into a bale. But never from the plunger. 


Chris


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## farmerbob1 (Jan 26, 2017)

I've been shooting Beiter since the 90's. No grooves. I would be interested to see that too.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Three of you have not noticed X10's being grooved by beiter plungers? I'm a bit surprised, as me and at least a couple of other shooters noticed it on X10 and ACE's (newer). The only way I'm demonstrating this is if someone sends me brand new X10's lol, as I'm not buying a new dozen at essentially 500 bucks and grooving them.


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

farmerbob1 said:


> I've been shooting Beiter since the 90's. No grooves. I would be interested to see that too.


CE Nano pro Xtreme 700 spine 28” nock to end of shaft. 110 gr tool steel point. Bow tuned well at approx 36.5lb with centre shot very close to dead centre, just slightly left of string. Bare shafts fly very well all the way out to 70m and have never missed the target at 70m and bare shafts are close enough to fletched group at 70m for my ability/level of shooting.
At 30m, bareshafts are tight in the group with fletched in the gold so nock point and bow lb is spot on for my shooting style
Avg mid/high 500’s at 70m

Beiter button, medium spring on 6.0 

Attached photos shows the groove worn on shaft. It’s 8cm long and consistent on all my shafts and the groove starts on shaft about 2.7cm behind button (closest to me) when bow is at full 28” draw.

Slow motion 1000fps footage shows arrow has great clearance around button/rest/riser shelf so no double tap or contact with bow on release.

When I spin the arrow on my fingers, there is a very obvious flat spot felt on the pad of my finger

Had similar groove on ACE 670’s but didnt use them for as long as the CE NPX


Would love to hear possible causes of this groove being created!


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

vscarf10 said:


> CE Nano pro Xtreme 700 spine 28” nock to end of shaft. 110 gr tool steel point. Bow tuned well at approx 36.5lb with centre shot very close to dead centre, just slightly left of string. Bare shafts fly very well all the way out to 70m and have never missed the target at 70m and bare shafts are close enough to fletched group at 70m for my ability/level of shooting.
> At 30m, bareshafts are tight in the group with fletched in the gold so nock point and bow lb is spot on for my shooting style
> Avg mid/high 500’s at 70m
> 
> ...



Plunger button looks to be in good condition, no apparent rough edges or visble signs of wear on the button face. I have some 600 X10s that have only just started to tune and even after 20 shots on each arrow, there is a very fine 8cm line visible on the shaft (cant be felt with finger yet) consistent with the NPX and ACE

Obviously I’m the constant in this scenario as it’s happening on 3 different types of arrows of 700, 670 and 600 spine but they all fly straight, bare and fletched and group and on Slo mo review, each of the 3 types of arrow clears bow shelf with no arrow contact once its separated from plunger.
I have tried a new plunger tip but it does not resolve the issue.

I’m not too fussed about it as long as arrows go where I aim but if theres a contributing factor to this groove I can change, it just means that I wont need to empty my pockets of my $ on shafts as often.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

vscarf10 said:


> Attached photos shows the groove worn on shaft. It’s 8cm long and consistent on all my shafts and the groove starts on shaft about 2.7cm behind button (closest to me) when bow is at full 28” draw.
> 
> Slow motion 1000fps footage shows arrow has great clearance around button/rest/riser shelf so no double tap or contact with bow on release.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the picture!
About the groove:
Does the groove have that angle on all of them? It looks like it's 1.5mm wide at the widest point - is it flat there or just a different curvature? Any chance you could measure a difference in diameter at that point? It's hard to tell if it's a ten micron flat or several hundred microns from the way it shows up.

About the conditions it formed under:
Which colour tip was on the button, and what arrow rest was it used with? Do you find the tip of your button tends to accumulate a layer of crud that leaves a dark streak if you wipe it off? Does the surface of the button stay shiny when used? What target material do you use most with those shafts and does it leave and residue on the shaft?


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

cerelestecerele said:


> Thanks for the picture!
> About the groove:
> Does the groove have that angle on all of them? It looks like it's 1.5mm wide at the widest point - is it flat there or just a different curvature? Any chance you could measure a difference in diameter at that point? It's hard to tell if it's a ten micron flat or several hundred microns from the way it shows up.
> 
> ...


Yes they all start off wider and the groove/flat spot thins out as it gets to the 8cm mark but you can feel the flat spot for the entire 8cm. Even past 8cm is a slightly visible line on the shaft but you cant feel it.
If you're into Formula 1, imagine a tyer flat spotting and then as it rotates it bobbles as it hits the flat spot. That’s what the groove feels like on the shaft as i rotate in my fingers. It’s very obvious

Black beiter tip, shibuya ultima rest. Yes there is a build up of crud, I’m assuming its the carbon from the shaft and it can be scraped off with finger nail. It’s definitely no longer shiny on the face of the tip even after removing the crud

Dont know the brand of target butt but its a rubbery/ memory foam type that does not leave any residue on shaft


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

I know you’re going to say yes but I have to check. The wear patch is on the side that faces the button when loaded in the bow?

Dumb thoughts that don’t necessarily match the symptoms:


What clicker are you using - how stiff is it?
How tight is the nock fit?
what happens if you rotate the nocks to an undamaged section and swap to a soft teflon tip plunger? (E.g. white shibuya) - does it eat the tip?
when you load the bow, does the shaft scrape across anything sharp or rough Eg clicker, clicker extension, riser edge
do you have a large block of sandpaper in the bottom of your quiver?
I have a set of 24 year old x10 410s that don’t have any wear mark like this - absolutely no decals left, plain black shafts, shot to death (nearly). Used to be 36 now there are 10.

Stretch


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

There is an easy solution. Just use the shaft with the aluminum tip from an AAR plunger. I’ll post pictures and make some measurements of the flat spots on my x10s when I get some good lighting so it can be seen clearly but it is similar to what has been described. Thanks to Jake for the solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

UK_Stretch said:


> Can someone please post a picture of the “groove worn in X10s” by the Beiter plunger. Where? How deep? What are the setup specs? I‘ve been shooting a Beiter button since 1996 and x10 since 1997 and I have never had this. In that time I have shot weak, bang on and stiff (per bare shaft). Mainly 410s but also 450s. I just haven’t seen it… and I’ve had some clearance issues off the plunger in that period.





chrstphr said:


> agree. never had an issue of wearing a groove with the Beiter. Have worn the ends of an X10 from too many shots into a bale. But never from the plunger.





farmerbob1 said:


> I've been shooting Beiter since the 90's. No grooves. I would be interested to see that too.


Same questions for those without a groove - 
Which colour tip is on the button, and what arrow rest(s) was it used with? Do you find the tip of your button tends to accumulate a layer of crud that leaves a dark streak if you wipe it off? Does the surface of the button stay shiny when used? What target material do you use most with those shafts and does it leave a residue on the shaft?

Another possibly important factor that could determine why some people have a visible groove after a few shots while others have nothing after decades - if you have a worn in tab and measure the width of the region from where the string sits at full draw to where it last loses contact with the string, how far across is it? Mine has a clear line where the lines from the center serving stop and the leather that never touches the string and is covered in suncream residue begins, and it's about 14mm at the widest point. 

For those who have been using them since the 90's, if you've also bought shafts in the last decade does there seem to be any difference in how quickly they wear down from the target and how long the decals last?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I use the black tips with the beiter. I have never changed my Beiter tip. I use the Hoyt super rest. My arrows are spined correctly for my poundage and my bow is aligned correctly. 

I get no build up of any crud. 

Have shot beiter for years and X10s for years. Never had a groove. Not sure why yours is getting a groove. I might suspect that the bow alignment is off and the arrow shoots into the riser. Your groove looks fairly long on the arrow. You shouldnt be on the plunger tip more two inches of arrow. Your groove looks like its 4 inches. 

If you watch any slow motion footage you can see the arrow isnt on the plunger tip that long. 
For example






Chris


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

UK_Stretch said:


> I know you’re going to say yes but I have to check. The wear patch is on the side that faces the button when loaded in the bow?
> 
> Dumb thoughts that don’t necessarily match the symptoms:
> 
> ...


* 100% groove is formed by plunger and not the arrow rest arm. I actually rotated the NPX 120 degrees knowing the plunger caused the groove so i can eventually get 3 consistent grooves rather than it wearing out one spot only.


Clicker is wiawis carbon. Its not firm at all so definately not putting any undue force/pressure on shaft at brace or full draw. There are no marks on clicker side of arrow
large groove beiter outnocks on both ACE and NPX and tap of string drops arrow off string. Not too loose or tight
I dont have any other brand of tips that fit the beiter. Shibuya tip does not fit. I did us to use shibuya on some older carbon ones and there was no visible signs of grooving
Since originally noticing the groove, I have loaded arrow by nocking it with arrow on rest then lift arrows under clicker. I do not slide arrow through clicker and nock it the conventional way.
*no sandpaper. The fact that the groove starts 1 inch behind initial contact with plunger when at full draw tells me it’s the plunger and me causing it.


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

lcaillo said:


> There is an easy solution. Just use the shaft with the aluminum tip from an AAR plunger. I’ll post pictures and make some measurements of the flat spots on my x10s when I get some good lighting so it can be seen clearly but it is similar to what has been described. Thanks to Jake for the solution.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where i live means that i would need go buy entire AAE plunger as tips are not available on thier own.

Maybe the $150AUD for full AAE plunger is worth the investment to prolong arrow life!


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

chrstphr said:


> I use the black tips with the beiter. I have never changed my Beiter tip. I use the Hoyt super rest. My arrows are spined correctly for my poundage and my bow is aligned correctly.
> 
> I get no build up of any crud.
> 
> ...


I am beyond ocd with my gear and set up .

Bow is in alignment using multiple beiter blocks, also by using arrow shafts on flat sides of riser and measuring string to arrow shaft. Limbs are Uukha SX100 and are not twisted.

Regarding my form, I know that my elbow is out away from my body more than it should be but due to pre archery injuries, I cant get ideal alignment so it is what it is So who knows if that is contributing to the extra time of arrow contacting plunger

Slo mo of NPX launch. Absolutely no contact with bow other than plunger on release and the clicker is NOT bouncing back and scraping the shaft as it passes.

Sorry to hijack your thread OP.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i cant really see from that angle the arrow reaction on the plunger tip.

But if your alignment is correct and arrow tuned, i have no idea why you get a groove on the arrow.


Chris


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

chrstphr said:


> i cant really see from that angle the arrow reaction on the plunger tip.
> 
> But if your alignment is correct and arrow tuned, i have no idea why you get a groove on the arrow.
> 
> ...


I will upload a rear view slo mo of NPX arrow launch and also one of the new X10 soon


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

vscarf10 said:


> I am beyond ocd with my gear and set up .
> 
> Bow is in alignment using multiple beiter blocks, also by using arrow shafts on flat sides of riser and measuring string to arrow shaft. Limbs are Uukha SX100 and are not twisted.
> 
> ...


Same here. No matter where the tune is I get the wear with either shaft with the beiter. When I mentioned it to Jake he was surprised I had not heard of the issue and said it was common. I typically shoot a tune that is a bit stiff in spine which I think might make it worse but I have tried moving to a weaker tune with a new set of shafts and go the same wear. I have a newer set of shafts one shot with the AAE tip and no wearing of the shaft. It is. It much but is definitely there. The shaft only touches the plunger tip for a few cm so I don’t know if it makes much difference over time but I prefer not to wear expensive shafts..,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

vscarf10 said:


> I will upload a rear view slo mo of NPX arrow launch and also one of the new X10 soon


The darker footage is the new X10 600’s with Easton pin and nocks that I started tuning last week. Arrow is 28” from nock to end of shaft and has 120gr SS points 28” draw and 36.5lb and beiter button is now 4.0 with sight unchanged from the NPX setting

Bare shafts and fletched are within a couple of inches at approx 23 metres which is good for my level of shooting. Centreshot on X10 is just under 1 arrow width left of string for straightest arrow flight of bare and fletched

The closer image is the NPX700 with Beiter out nock and plunger on 6.0


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

cerelestecerele said:


> Same questions for those without a groove -
> Which colour tip is on the button, and what arrow rest(s) was it used with? Do you find the tip of your button tends to accumulate a layer of crud that leaves a dark streak if you wipe it off? Does the surface of the button stay shiny when used? What target material do you use most with those shafts and does it leave a residue on the shaft?
> 
> Another possibly important factor that could determine why some people have a visible groove after a few shots while others have nothing after decades - if you have a worn in tab and measure the width of the region from where the string sits at full draw to where it last loses contact with the string, how far across is it? Mine has a clear line where the lines from the center serving stop and the leather that never touches the string and is covered in suncream residue begins, and it's about 14mm at the widest point.
> ...


Answers to questions in order:

Black mainly but over 20+ years I have also used blue, light grey and light green (different barrel lengths and collar on plunger) and ranged from 47# to 38# across two spine sizes giving everything from overly stiff to a tiny bit weak (tiny bit weak is my preference). 32”+ 410 and 450 most often with 100gr points - both the orginal 90-110 gr SS and more recently tungsten.
Cavalier FreeFlyte Elite; cheap Ukranian Yamaha copy; ARE; W&W; Shibuya
Not so much - generally they look scuffed (like you used a med grain sandpaper). In the best tuned setups there was little or no marking. Tended to get some accumulation with straw bosses
Only when very clean tuned - so not always. Definite signs of accumulation when I had a clearance issue - second contact with the back of the arrow at the leading edge of the vane (alignment issue)
Everything from Stramit, Egerton, Danage, layered foam and ProBoss. Straw targets leave gunk. Foam not so much - a little as the foam gets to end of life
I can only tell you what the current line is which is around 16mm (very deep hook past the joint on top two fingers). But I can also tell you my release sucks right now - still adjusting to a 3# drop in weight.
Logos on early shafts wore quicker but then I shot more and better so that could be a factor. Most recent set of 450s still look OK after about 2 years with no significant visible degradation.
At the moment the 20+ year old shafts are used for blank boss only. They were 410s and they are shorter than my 450s that tune pretty close but a touch stiff. So shooting maybe 1.5 spines too stiff and no flatspots.

Limbs in use have been a fairly broad range of “normal shape” recurves. Recently picked up a set of Border semi-Super Recurve (if that is a thing) and they tune a stiffer arrow but even shooting weaker arrows etc I have not seen any flatting. A 410 is about the same amount stiff as a 450 on Velos limbs at pretty much the same draw weight - Borders maybe 0.5# heavier.

My bows are always tuned just a touch outside center - so put the shaft in line with the string and then turn it out a quarter turn. At the most the tip of the arrow on the left edge of the string.

Only thing I can add is none of these setups were particularly fast. Even at 47# it was only just over 200fps. I briefly shot a setup that was about 210fps (Hoyt FX limbs) but we did not get on.

Only other ponderance is whether the long SS 120 is creating an overly stiff front section which is riding the button too hard. X10 600 also seems very stiff at 28” (including or excluding point?) and 36.5#. My 450 is stiff at 31 7/8” shaft length off 41#. So that is 5 boxes on the Easton chart but only 3 spines different. Bareshaft says otherwise … but…

Stretch


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

UK_Stretch said:


> Answers to questions in order
> 
> Only other ponderance is whether the long SS 120 is creating an overly stiff front section which is riding the button too hard. X10 600 also seems very stiff at 28” (including or excluding point?) and 36.5#. My 450 is stiff at 31 7/8” shaft length off 41#. So that is 5 boxes on the Easton chart but only 3 spines different. Bareshaft says otherwise … but…
> 
> Stretch


28” is to end of shaft, so point not included. With the 120gr point unbroken, the line starting to form on the new X10 shaft is about 1-2cm behind where the shank of the 120gr point would end inside the shaft.

Given that this same thing happened with ACE 670 with 100gr point which has much shorter point shank, I dont think that shank is causing this

Another thing to note is that my new 28” long X10 600’s with 120gr are coming out at 187fps @ 36.5lb and 28” DL so maybe the speed of limbs are contributing as all the grooves that have formed on the 3 shafts have been with Uukha limbs.

Does anything look unusual in the slow motion arrow launch videos?


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

lcaillo said:


> There is an easy solution. Just use the shaft with the aluminum tip from an AAR plunger. I’ll post pictures and make some measurements of the flat spots on my x10s when I get some good lighting so it can be seen clearly but it is similar to what has been described.


Could you measure the length and width of the line please, or just give a rough description of it? It would be interesting to see how similar it is to vscarf10's. Do you have any way of measuring its depth?
When you were using the Beiter button, did you get built up crud on the tip after a while? What about residue on the shaft? Do you get any built up material on the other tips?
Looking at your finger tab, how wide does the worn region look? Could you measure that width (like in the tab picture a few posts back)? Or if there's no tab wear yet, maybe a bit of powder or something else that's easily removed to see how far the string slides against it before it's no longer pressing against the material?



vscarf10 said:


> Does anything look unusual in the slow motion arrow launch videos?


It's really hard to tell with the shutter speed giving it that much motion blur, but in the lighter video (can't see in the darker one) it looks like the arrow is exerting enough force on your button to press it inwards for about 4 frames (guessing 4ms?), which is a lot longer than I've seen both in high speed videos from top archers (Natalia Valeeva 1-2ms error due to frame rate, Park Sung Hyun and her magic release 1ms ). That would give it significantly more contact length while the friction force on the arrow from the button is reasonably high - given the result you're seeing on the shaft, probably high enough to get abrasive wear either from the button surface directly, or any crud (or bits of the previous shaft) being pressed between the button and shaft giving three body abrasion instead.
From my own experiments with button contact time (shamelessly here), I get the same duration (2ms) whether I'm using a tuned arrow or one that's a bit or very weak or stiff, and it doesn't matter whether the button is at the right pressure or if it's too weak or stiff - so it doesn't seem to be something that can be changed by doing anything to the arrow or button. My expectation, though I don't yet have data to prove it, is that the button contact time is determined by some "human" variable that is consistent within one person (so group size is unaffected) but variable betwen people (why most people don't have the issue), like the shape of your hand as you release, hence asking about finger tab wear.

There's also possibly more sideways string movement than I'm used to seeing (based on my bow and on those of other in competitions using 1000 fps and a 1/12800" shutter) but that could easily be caused by the camera only. Unfortunately getting rid of the motion blur and increasing depth of focus means needing either outdoor lighting or an uncomfortably bright incandescent bulb, which isn't always achievable.
What does the width of the wear on your tab look like?


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## KurlyArrow (Jan 17, 2016)

I also have been having this problem and decided to take some data to try to mitigate it a while ago.

As can be seen in my other thread, my X10s are acting weird, hitting the plunger a second time just behind the logo. 
I shot 25,000 arrows with my 380s in one orientation with the black beiter tip, which caused them to develop a 0.23mm flat where the plunger is hitting the second time. It is a little hard to see the flat in a picture, so I modeled it to scale in Fusion 360 and rendered a slice of the arrow at the worst point to visually show the problem easier. Having the aluminum core gives perspective on just how much carbon is being worn away.

After I had measured this, I machined a brass insert to glue into the white beiter tip, making it the same length as the black one. Once I made this, I rotated my arrows 120 degrees counterclockwise and shot another 15,000 arrows until I got new 325 spine X10s. While there is a light mark where the plunger hits, there is no longer a flat spot like I had been shooting with sandpaper on my plunger.

Since there has already been some high speed video in this thread, I thought I would post mine as well for some comparison.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

KurlyArrow said:


> I also have been having this problem and decided to take some data to try to mitigate it a while ago.
> 
> As can be seen in my other thread, my X10s are acting weird, hitting the plunger a second time just behind the logo.
> I shot 25,000 arrows with my 380s in one orientation with the black beiter tip, which caused them to develop a 0.23mm flat where the plunger is hitting the second time. It is a little hard to see the flat in a picture, so I modeled it to scale in Fusion 360 and rendered a slice of the arrow at the worst point to visually show the problem easier. Having the aluminum core gives perspective on just how much carbon is being worn away.
> ...


Nice clear video, though I think could hear my arrows whimper in sympathy in the next room at that second hit. Did you figure out the cause of the contact? I found I could make contact happen in some extreme cases, like a very stiff shaft with no point hitting a few inches from the nock, and a very weak shaft with a very soft button hitting both the clicker and button near the middle of the shaft.

Do/did you get any grooving or other wear from the first contact between the button and shaft?

About that 200 microns - I once sanded down a 470 ACE on opposite sides of the barelled part to see how an "elliptically spined" arrow would fly. It took 150 microns on each side on roughly the middle 15cm to turn it into a 570. As the thick and thin side of the shaft resonate at audibly different frequencies when pinged, I get a "wub-wub" beat for a spine difference of 0.050" between the sides, and something closer to this for the 0.100" spine difference. Your flat spot is not as long of course, but I would be interested to know if it was audible. Not that it means anything concrete in terms of grouping of course, it's just an interesting musical side effect.


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

Just reviving this topic as I have had a breakthrough that could help others that have experienced excessive arrow wear from their beiter plunger. 

After shooting my new X10s with 120gr SS points, the shafts started to develop a groove from the plunger that was approx 3 1/2 inches long and whilst the the groove was hard to see unless under direct light, it could be very easily felt with finger when spinning the shaft. This groove was evident after approx. 50-60 shots from brand new. 

I had money to burn so got some 120gr Easton tungsten's and by changing nothing else initially apart from bringing clicker closer to shelf to account for shorter point, I spun the nocks on a couple of shafts 120 degrees and have shot them approx 60 times each. There is a very faint, thin mark approx. 2 inches long that coincides with initial arrow contact with plunger on release but there is no longer a groove being formed in the shafts from the plunger

They only thing I can think is that due to the end of the SS internal shank being almost 1 inch behind the plunger for my arrow and DL, the arrow was riding the plunger longer due to less flex at front end of shaft causing the groove to form and now with tungsten's, the end of the internal shank is just on the plunger which is reducing the amount of time arrow rides the plunger on release.

As mentioned previously, the tune was good with SS points as flight was clean with no arrow contact with shelf, rest or plunger after release with bare couple of inches weak at 29 metres but grouping still tight enough for my level, it was just this groove that was starting to annoy me given these arrows are not cheap. With tungsten points, the arrows have reacted slightly weaker but 1/2 turn off limb bolts have straightened flight and bare are in an acceptable group up to 40m.

Couple of other observations
1. My FOC is.25% less with 120gr tungsten vs 120gr SS which seems to be contrary to others experience.
2. I've junked 2 X10s from rear impacts using Beiter outnocks. I also had a few rear hits with my NPX but only ever had to replace the nock so either the NPX is a more robust arrow or the X10 is more accurate 
3. I'm shooting a 600 spine X10 cut to 27.95" nock to BOP with a 120 point at 35.5lb with medium spring on 4.0 and still need to have 1 full arrow width left of string for straight flight as dead centre makes arrow fly tail left indicating weak so not sure what's going on as it almost feels like I could get away with even stiffer spine if I wanted to get centre shot back to dead centre. Anyone got any ideas why centre shot need to be so far out? Sight pin is close to line of string


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

vscarf10 said:


> 3. I'm shooting a 600 spine X10 cut to 27.95" nock to BOP with a 120 point at 35.5lb with medium spring on 4.0 and still need to have 1 full arrow width left of string for straight flight as dead centre makes arrow fly tail left indicating weak so not sure what's going on as it almost feels like I could get away with even stiffer spine if I wanted to get centre shot back to dead centre. Anyone got any ideas why centre shot need to be so far out? Sight pin is close to line of string


I would go back to dead center and change the plunger spring from medium to hard. then see if the bareshafts are still tail left. 

Tail left doesnt always mean weak. It just means the arrow is coming off the bow at that angle. 

Chris


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

chrstphr said:


> I would go back to dead center and change the plunger spring from medium to hard. then see if the bareshafts are still tail left.
> 
> Tail left doesnt always mean weak. It just means the arrow is coming off the bow at that angle.
> 
> Chris


I will try true center but wouldn’t stiffening the plunger push bare and fletched left across the target face meaning that sight pin will need to move further left from string and no longer be above arrow point. Does it really matter where sight pin ends up?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

vscarf10 said:


> I will try true center but wouldn’t stiffening the plunger push bare and fletched left across the target face meaning that sight pin will need to move further left from string and no longer be above arrow point. Does it really matter where sight pin ends up?


stiffening the spring will move the whole group, but stiffening it some may move the point over first before moving the entire group. 
Something is amiss in your tune if you need such an offset centershot with X10s. I would suspect alignment first, but you can try the heavier spring, or stiffen the plunger with the medium spring and see if the bareshaft straightens. 


Chris


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

Both functioned the same, except the made quality. Poor qualify tips fits loosely, both the strength of springs and magnets could change more quickly with those bad quality ones, and more ever, I found only beiter and shibuya spring are much more linear for adjustment. Linear string are hard to make, and even harder to make the equivalent magnetic linear strength adjustment mechanism.


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## vscarf10 (Dec 31, 2019)

chrstphr said:


> stiffening the spring will move the whole group, but stiffening it some may move the point over first before moving the entire group.
> Something is amiss in your tune if you need such an offset centershot with X10s. I would suspect alignment first, but you can try the heavier spring, or stiffen the plunger with the medium spring and see if the bareshaft straightens.
> 
> 
> Chris


Your suggestion was spot on Chris. Swapped the spring to the stiffest @ 8.0 on the beiter and moved centre shot to dead centre and bare are no longer flying tail out to 40m and if anything the groups have tightened up between bare and fletched. Sight also actually had to move closer to string line as centre shot change must have been more significant than the stiffer spring as group starting hitting 6 inches right at 40m

Thanks for the tip.


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## nex667 (Sep 1, 2018)

lcaillo said:


> There is an easy solution. Just use the shaft with the aluminum tip from an AAR plunger. I’ll post pictures and make some measurements of the flat spots on my x10s when I get some good lighting so it can be seen clearly but it is similar to what has been described. Thanks to Jake for the solution.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you try that? Does the AAE stem fit into the Beiter plunger? 

I can't remember Jake recommending using the AAE stem in a Beiter plunger, if I recall correctly he recommends using the AAE plunger.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Yes. The shaft from the AAE fits. He recommended it if you otherwise like the Beiter and already have it. Otherwise just get the AAE. I have both and overall like the Beiter better but they are both fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alithearcher (Sep 18, 2017)

The Beiter tip is the culprit and flat spot is there. The easiest way to find is to feel with fingers, if you hold the arrow (where the plunger contacts) with two fingers and slowly spin the arrow then you’ll feel the flat spot. I can also see the carbon dust building up on the riser, right below the arrow rest. I don’t know how much of a difference it makes, but I was told why turning the nock to a different position might not be a good idea due to this.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

alithearcher said:


> The Beiter tip is the culprit and flat spot is there. The easiest way to find is to feel with fingers, if you hold the arrow (where the plunger contacts) with two fingers and slowly spin the arrow then you’ll feel the flat spot. I can also see the carbon dust building up on the riser, right below the arrow rest. I don’t know how much of a difference it makes, but I was told why turning the nock to a different position might not be a good idea due to this.


You have so much abrasion that enough material is removed that some of it settles into a visible build up of carbon fiber dust on your shelf??
How long and deep is the flat spot on your arrow? It's strange that it starts right where the button touches, since the arrow slides against the button for about an inch before pushing it in.
What type of shaft are you using, and do you have other signs of hard contact between other parts of the riser/arrow?


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## Shockleader (29 d ago)

cerelestecerele said:


> They both work just fine. I have an Arc Systeme promagn magnetic button that I used for years before being given a used Beiter (I use it because it's my favourite colour). No noticeable difference in group shape/size or anything else. The magnetic one had about half the adjustment resolution since 7 turns took you all the way through the range of all three Beiter springs, though when one click moves a bareshaft only 1mm or so at 18m that resolution isn't needed.
> I've never had a visible flat on my ACEs with either button, though I did wear through the nickel? coating on the tip and into the brass of the magnetic one after many years (maybe a hundred microns), and I wore about twice that away from my black Beiter tip after less than two years.
> 
> In ~8 years that I used the magnetic one, I think I saw one other person with one out of a thousand. The magnetic one is ever so slightly smoother than a good quality well maintained spring loaded button, though the magnetic piston weighs 4.5g instead of 0.9g for a Beiter or 1.4g for a Shibuya, which reduces its acceleration when the arrow presses against it. If either of those differences was important in and way then magnetic plungers would have either taken over from springs or gone extinct at some point in the last 20 years as each generation of competitors searched for any possible technological advantage.


As I have only just purchased my first magnetic plunger which from first impressions is impressive I thought I would read other archers views on the device. From the many comments including this one which questions whether the fractional extra weight of the piston would make a difference to the shot. I was surprised why no one has questioned whether Lens’s Law would also have an effect on piston movement. Having used magnets in non contact braking of multiplier fishing reels i am only too aware of the effect that magnets have against a moving non magnetic metal such as aluminium or magnesium. Although I have not got the technology to take accurate measurements and calculate the slowing of the piston in the plunger I believe it may be only 1/100 of a second delay which although measurable, would be corrected in the minutest adjustments left or right depending on the effect the time delay has on the shot. The weight of the plunger would have a similar effect.

Overall I’m happy with my magnetic plunger and will continue to use it and was interested on other archers views of the effect Lens’s Law has on the shot.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

fingers81 said:


> What works best and why. Beiter is what Ive read is top of the line and what most of the top archers shoot is this personal preference. I looking at the Wifler, W&W, Arc and Gabriel magnetic plungers why are these not use as much?


This is an old post but I have two Wiflers one each on a different bow and find them to be the most tunable plunger I have owned. If I am going to pay that much for a plungers IMO the magnetic is waaay better. Who shoots what at the professional level is often based on sponsorship. I just know that I can easily move/"tune" my groups with the Wifler-- I shoot BB and so word "tune my groups" is an estimate but if I am hitting on one side of the BE I can bring them to the other side with 2-4 clicks. With me it depends on the day which side they group on - yeah my bad- but the Wifler helps a lot. I can even bring weak hitting bareshafts back to the group with it.. I like mine.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Shockleader said:


> Overall I’m happy with my magnetic plunger and will continue to use it and was interested on other archers views of the effect Lens’s Law has on the shot.


Is it because of the current part of Lenz's law that I am shocked when I hit the BE???


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## Redwing#308 (Mar 28, 2018)

Being this is a plunger thread…
I am ready to buy a new plunger for my new bow. Always wanted a Beiter. Still do tho, I am considering a Wifler. Sure some conflicting opinions here. My biggest issue is, the sizing/availability of Beiters… at LAS.
I think I need the 25.5-29.5, which is always unavailable, except in silly circus colors. Took my cheap Shibuya out of my Avalon w/ Spig ZT. It measures 23mm tip to base of lock nut. Xceed riser is 3mm thicker. So, ready to rock, should need 26mm. Yep, looked at the sizing chart. Is this correct?
Just would appreciate a verification before ordering my secondary choice. 
Thank you!


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## jtrops (Nov 20, 2018)

You could use the short Beiter with the 7mm nut, and the 6x36mm pin. This chart is from the Beiter plunger tech page.










FWIW, I don't use a Beiter (I've looked at them more than a few times though). I'm using a magnetic plunger; EXE Magnetic Jet. I almost went the Beiter direction when I got an AAE Free Flyte Elite rest and my plunger no longer reached deep enough. After seeing this chart from Beiter I realized that my plunger nut was pretty thick. I swapped out the nut from my Shibuya, and It's been working well for years.


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## matt flint (May 21, 2012)

Redwing#308 said:


> Being this is a plunger thread…
> I am ready to buy a new plunger for my new bow. Always wanted a Beiter. Still do tho, I am considering a Wifler. Sure some conflicting opinions here. My biggest issue is, the sizing/availability of Beiters… at LAS.
> I think I need the 25.5-29.5, which is always unavailable, except in silly circus colors. Took my cheap Shibuya out of my Avalon w/ Spig ZT. It measures 23mm tip to base of lock nut. Xceed riser is 3mm thicker. So, ready to rock, should need 26mm. Yep, looked at the sizing chart. Is this correct?
> Just would appreciate a verification before ordering my secondary choice.
> Thank you!


I set up the 21-27 beiter on my xceed with ase free flyte elite. Needed a longer pin though. The dark green was too long, so I ground it down and now have ordered the light green. Should be perfect


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## jtrops (Nov 20, 2018)

The Spiga ZT mounting plate is just under 3mm's thick, and the FF Elite is 5mm's. So that model should work on on the Exceed with the ZT given the above measurements.

I moved from the ZT to the Elite causing my plunger issues.


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## Redwing#308 (Mar 28, 2018)

jtrops said:


> You could use the short Beiter with the 7mm nut, and the 6x36mm pin. This chart is from the Beiter plunger tech page.
> 
> View attachment 7760291
> 
> ...


Thank you!
Now I see how to mix parts. That size is available.
Life is good!👍🏻🙏



matt flint said:


> I set up the 21-27 beiter on my xceed with ase free flyte elite. Needed a longer pin though. The dark green was too long, so I ground it down and now have ordered the light green. Should be perfect


Sounds good except, LAS does not offer that one.
Appreciate it tho!
Thought about checking the UK sites mentioned.
🤙


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## matt flint (May 21, 2012)

Redwing#308 said:


> Thank you!
> Now I see how to mix parts. That size is available.
> Life is good!👍🏻🙏
> 
> ...


Alternative sells the beiter for like 80 bucks. Just picked one up


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## Redwing#308 (Mar 28, 2018)

matt flint said:


> Alternative sells the beiter for like 80 bucks. Just picked one up


Shweet!!😃👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you!


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

+1 on Alternative Services for a source for Beiter Plungers. They have the 21mm-27mm in stock for black and usually ships quickly. I have found the shipping times for other colors a bit longer, but not bad.

I also have the Wifler and the bolt does not always fit well depending on the spacing of the burger holes--OK on my Win & Win, too close on my Hoyt. I did reach out to Wifler with a question about that, including a follow-up email. and got no response. I decided to go with Beiter plungers for my risers.


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## Redwing#308 (Mar 28, 2018)

Hikari said:


> +1 on Alternative Services for a source for Beiter Plungers. They have the 21mm-27mm in stock for black and usually ships quickly. I have found the shipping times for othe colors a bit longer, but not bad.
> 
> I also have the Wifler and the bolt does not always fit well depending on the spacing of the burger holes--OK on my Win & Win, too close on my Hoyt. I did reach out to Wifler with a question about that, including a follow-up email. and got no response. I decided to go with Beiter plungers for my risers.


Thx Hikari,
Checked out AS last night. They have all the options for Beiter. Prices are appealing, for sure. Just setting up the Xceed with my Shibuya for the moment. Backed off the nut exactly 3mm, put it in, dead nuts on center shot. So, 26mm tip to base of nut. When I switch to 4mm arrows, I will need 27.5mm to tip. Thoroughly confused why I am told the 17.5-23.5 will work. Even after someone pulled his plunger from same rest/riser to check! I must be missing something.

AS prices are good but, after reading reviews about de-lam of several different high end limbs, wonder about product support/ replacements? Anyone have after sale experience?


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Hikari said:


> +1 on Alternative Services for a source for Beiter Plungers. They have the 21mm-27mm in stock for black and usually ships quickly. I have found the shipping times for other colors a bit longer, but not bad.
> 
> I also have the Wifler and the bolt does not always fit well depending on the spacing of the burger holes--OK on my Win & Win, too close on my Hoyt. I did reach out to Wifler with a question about that, including a follow-up email. and got no response. I decided to go with Beiter plungers for my risers.


I had trouble fitting my Wifler to my WinexII riser- without a bolt on rest ( I use a stick on) the plunger bar is too long and I was just able to get it on and still held on to the nut by a couple of threads-- seems like for that price another shorter bar could be included or at least available-- love the plunger tho- smooth as silk and easily adjustable.


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