# Up and coming archers "Getting recognized"



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Maybe the thinking comes from sports like gymnastics, where podium placement is only part of the story. A good deal of olympic team selection falls to 1 person, and it's that person who ultimately evaluates how you fit or don't fit in the olympic roster.

What I love about archery is that the playing field is level. Anyone can compete next to and against the 'pros' and if you earn the scores, you too can reach the highest levels of competition. Pure meritocracy.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, that works for me, and for most folks. What's really interesting is when you discover who those people are that it does not work for.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I can understand how scary it might be for people who are accustomed to influencing outcomes with 'soft skills'. This is a sport where your skill is directly quantifiable. It can be hard to look into the mirror.


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## gjlama94 (Oct 11, 2013)

If archery truly is a meritocracy, all the more reason to like the sport, IMHO. Glad to hear it stated so directly and unequivocally.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I can understand how scary it might be for people who are accustomed to influencing outcomes with 'soft skills'. This is a sport where your skill is directly quantifiable. It can be hard to look into the mirror.


Yup.

But it's equally enjoyable (more so actually) to watch someone who has been worried about the subjective influence, learn that they have total control over their career.  I can think of a few pretty cool reactions I've seen after finally explaining this to a few parents and archers. First they are scared (because it's all on them) then they are relieved, then they are excited!


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

In a nutshell, *JUST SHOOT.*

If you are on the podium at Nationals you will be recognized. It is where the rubber meets the road.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Damn it, I was hoping Demmer and I would be recognized and put on teams because of our handsome faces.lol


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tjk009 said:


> In a nutshell, *JUST SHOOT.*
> 
> If you are on the podium at Nationals you will be recognized. It is where the rubber meets the road.




And there's only one way to get on those podiums too.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

There is a way to break the I want to be reconized mentality...embarassment. Give recognition when the person with the "look at me" mentality screws up. When they have a bad shot...stop the class and let them be recognized. After a few times of this, they'll change their attitude or quit.

The thinking doesn't come from sports like gymnastics, it has to do with the social media society we have now...got to have something in there that says "oh, you're cool"...and a national team, olympic training IS cool. Kids now want to be recognized for something that they simply show up for...the whole "everyone plays" mentality. Doesn't matter if you suck, you still get a trophy...and it won't say you're last.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The other irony is that my "Just Shoot" commentary applies to sponsorships as well.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Fury90flier said:


> There is a way to break the I want to be reconized mentality...embarassment. Give recognition when the person with the "look at me" mentality screws up. When they have a bad shot...stop the class and let them be recognized. After a few times of this, they'll change their attitude or quit.


Going that far in the other direction ends up being bullying. That can land a coach in a whole HEAP of trouble they don't want any part of.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Damn it, I was hoping Demmer and I would be recognized and put on teams because of our handsome faces.lol


Right. 

You guys are recognized alright. LOL.


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## bowgal (Jun 12, 2003)

Agree 100 % with Mulcade....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The thinking doesn't come from sports like gymnastics, it has to do with the social media society we have now...got to have something in there that says "oh, you're cool"...and a national team, olympic training IS cool. Kids now want to be recognized for something that they simply show up for


Oh, I think this is part of the motivation as well. And not just for the kids either.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Mulcade said:


> Going that far in the other direction ends up being bullying. That can land a coach in a whole HEAP of trouble they don't want any part of.



Now if you did this to simply any student out of the blue, you would be correct but to a student that wants to stand out...not a problem. You are providing exactly what the student wants...to be identified.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think that's another discussion for another thread. 

I'd like to keep this one on track because I really believe as many new archers and parents as possible need to understand this.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks for the redirection...

So, back to topic.

The issue seems to be proper focus on what is important....yea, Captian Obvious on that point. Unfortunately what is obvious to some is completely blind to others.

if this is off track, soory...will open another thread on this:

As a coach, how do you guys feel about students with this need for a "pat on the back". Does it seem to distract from coaching in general or is it something that you work around...how does it affect the attitude of other students. Do you feel that this need to be identified is rubbing off on other students?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Again, those are off topic. Sorry Fury.

What I'm hoping to get people to realize is just what myself and Steve have said. There is no requirement or need to be "recognized" or "discovered" or "make an impression" or "be seen" in this sport. 

However, there is this rumor or myth that just won't seem to die that exists within the junior ranks and their parents. 

I've never heard this from an adult. Only kids or their parents - mostly their parents.

I mean, imagine a 30 year old archer worried about putting themselves "out there" so they could "be seen" at competitions. How sad would that sound? Well, it's no different for anyone of any age. It simply doesn't matter.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Again, those are off topic. Sorry Fury.
> 
> What I'm hoping to get people to realize is just what myself and Steve have said. There is no requirement or need to be "recognized" or "discovered" or "make an impression" or "be seen" in this sport.


How does that relate to the opportunities and access afforded by being "recognized" and put on the JDT? (And should we stop calling it a team since it doesn't compete as one?)


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> How does that relate to the opportunities and access afforded by being "recognized" and put on the JDT? (And should we stop calling it a team since it doesn't compete as one?)


Since I only have Compound JDT selection process to draw from... 

Those that go to the selection camp seem to be chosen from a combination of MQS, willingness to go to the CVOTC or CSOTC, willingness to take extra training, and how well you do in school. 

It's not who you know or how well you adhere to the NTS. In fact, one coach observer at the recent JDT camp last week commented to me that only 3 campers adhered to pure NTS. The rest (including those that won podium spots at Nationals in the ranking or eliminations) did not and used a modified form of NTS to their own body style. 

I know JDT red and blue teams travel together. But with the distributed coaching setup plus school schedules, it's hard to have the kids train together all at the same times. 

Frankly, the JDT process can add stress to the kids. It puts a target on your back. It's very sobering when you wear Team USA gear and you crash and burn. And it does not mean you are automatically the hottest meteorite on the planet when you put on the shirt. I've witnessed more than one JDT parent/coach deflate visibly when their kid gets annihilated, and the parent/coach does not have the training to pull their kid out of the quicksand. 

Truth to tell, I'm mixed about Spencer's JDT application, both as his dad as well as his travel coach. Will he get anything out of being on it? Will it help or hurt him training wise? Is he truly going to get more tournament experience beyond what he already does (Indoor Nationals, Outdoor Nationals, State Indoor, State Outdoor, AZ Cup, SoCal, Vegas, NFAA State and Regional Indoor and Outdoors, plus one International out of country every 2 years, on top of other local and regional stuff)? 

I'm not worried about a target on his back. Other kids actually cite Spencer as an example of who they want to beat in their goal sheets. Spencer takes it all in stride and does what he wants to... Shoot. If he gets beat.. Eh. If he wins - Cool! 

So, I can't exactly say that JDT affords any increased access nor visibility. Frankly, wearing the shirt increases the scrutiny to an unnecessary level. 

Taking about scrutiny... 

I, for example, have to beat down the urge to take who I know on JDT and see and graph out how well they do at major tournaments. It's a habit that I do in my head, and it's not fair to the shooter not knowing their situation or mindset or whatnot when going into the tournament. And mental maturity is hard to quantify for kids. 

Pros, on the other hand, are supposed to be scrutinized like that. Kids shouldn't. 

Therein lies the problem with parents and uninformed coaches wanting their kid to be "discovered". It really puts added spotlights on a kid that's still in development.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Beast, thank you for sharing your perspective. That's very helpful to those of us who haven't had any experience in dealing with the JDT.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Kevin, ask me about JDT sometime...

And I had no intention of this thread being about JDT. Like other coaches, I just keep hearing the "be recognized" or "be seen" or whatever from archers and their parents, and I never can seem to get a straight answer from them as to who they hope to be recognized by, or what they think it is going to do for them, or who told them that it was required to make a team (again, a real team, not a made-up one). 

I got some clarification from one archer via PM just now, and it confirmed what I suspected - that they thought it was important to be recognized by one of the coaches wearing "USA" on their shirt, and they thought it was a step on the way to the Olympics.

And that's why I started this thread. Not because those aren't good coaches - they are in most cases VERY good coaches - but because "being recognized" is being thrown about as if it's a requirement for a kid to ever get anywhere in this sport, and the facts will tell you (if you're willing to look at facts) that simply is NOT the case.

Every archer is different and they are motivated by different things. Some are motivated by how well they shoot, and some by who is watching them shoot. Give me the first in a head to head match any day. My money will be on that archer. 

If an archer wants to be recognized, I'd suggest they let their scores do the talking for them. Believe me, regardless of who one trains with, where they train, who they are or how they shoot, if they continue to rank at the top of the leaderboard and continue to make it to the podium, everyone will know who they are. Including the archers that have to shoot against them.  

But be careful what you ask for. Steve is 100% correct about the target on your back. 

John


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

A surefire way to "get recognized" is to outshoot people. I almost took an RA to a shootoff arrow! It was real close! At the end of it I was getting high fives and pats on the back from other RAs and coaches with USA on their back and I thought that was really cool. I mean its been said time and time again on these forums: the target and score cards dont lie at the end of the day. Top archers and recognized archers are where they are because they worked their butts off and got the scores that they needed to get. Simple as that.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Who are those guys ?


limbwalker said:


> Right.
> 
> You guys are recognized alright. LOL.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Who are those guys ?


LOL. 



> the target and score cards dont lie at the end of the day. Top archers and recognized archers are where they are because they worked their butts off and got the scores that they needed to get. Simple as that.


Arsi, good for you. That's what it's all about. 

Great archers respect great archery. Period. There is a mutual respect shared between the top archers that nobody else can give or receive. You can be recognized by a coach, but being respected by your peers is more important and those who have reached that level understand what I mean by that. 

John


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

itbeso said:


> Damn it, I was hoping Demmer and I would be recognized and put on teams because of our handsome faces.lol


The only place you and Demmer will get recognized is on Americas most Wanted Ben


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

John,

I very well may owe you an apology....I sent a "need to be recognized" kid to you a few weeks ago-- maybe a couple months ago by now.

if you had a student from Houston that was directed to you and that parent/student had that "olympic dream" and a need to be "known"....it may be my fault.

Very sorry for any frustration it may have caused.

They wanted "recognition" so I provided it. Hopefully if this student showed up-- mom got a little re-education


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> The only place you and Demmer will get recognized is on Americas most Wanted Ben


LOL. Jon, If only I could get Demmer to dress more normal, john Walsh might have a tougher time finding us.:shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Who are those guys ?


Rumor is that they are the heart and soul of the next Olympic squad.:angel:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Fury90flier said:


> John,
> 
> I very well may owe you an apology....I sent a "need to be recognized" kid to you a few weeks ago-- maybe a couple months ago by now.
> 
> ...


She wouldn't be the first I've had to re-educate. And no, she isn't the impetus for this thread, but folks like her have been approaching me and other coaches for years now. And those are just the ones I know of - the ones who've said something like "get my kid out there" or "have my kid be seen by the right people" or something to that effect. 

If I ever hear a parent or young archer say that, I usually step in and either ask them why they think that, or just straight up tell them what a myth that is. 

Honestly, most parents (like the most recent one from Houston) just don't know any better. They usually know absolutely nothing about how national teams are selected, or about how the sport works. So it's an honest mistake on their part, I guess. However, there seems to be plenty of parents who can read the qualification criteria and figure it out on their own, so it makes me wonder if some of these folks want to use their so-called "soft skills" to gain an advantage for their child, regardless of whether it's merit-based or not.

And I fully recognize that the end-game for some of these folks is just to have a reason to brag on their child - whether they actually earned a spot on a real team or not. Those are the ones I don't even bother to say anything to, because they are in the sport for the wrong reasons, and their kid's career isn't going to be a very long one because of it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

itbeso said:


> LOL. Jon, If only I could get Demmer to dress more normal, john Walsh might have a tougher time finding us.:shade:


You mean parachute pants aren't in fashion anymore?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

Archery is quantitative, no points for "style" or looks. 

You're stating common sense and fortunately, reality.
Some people get it and some don't. 
I can't be bothered anymore with the latter.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Archery is quantitative, no points for "style" or looks.


Just like one of my golfing buddies always says... "there ain't no room in that little box for how it got there."  

Another way of putting it is "It's not how, it's how many."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess the other way to view this (trying to look at it from the parent's and archer's perspective) is that they have been convinced that the most qualified, or even the ONLY coaches qualified to take a kid to the Jr. USAT or USAT level are the ones in the fancy shirts, or with names they read on websites and blogs.

Social media has brought us to the point now where even after being shown the facts, some people still refuse to believe that anyone they haven't heard of or see pictures of, is qualified. ha, ha. 

In one conversation I had, I took the names of about 6 archers who medaled at JOAD Nationals, and named off their coaches. The parent didn't recognize a single name. I told them "you need to figure out what the end goal is here. If it's for your kid to be coached by someone in a fancy shirt, or to find the best coach for your kid and your personal situation." In a few cases, those may be one in the same, but in many cases, they aren't. 

It's a mindset - a personal philosophy that each parent and archer will be faced with in this era of celebrity coaches, official looking "Olympic training" programs, and fancy "team" bowling shirts (and I don't mean JDT shirts either).

If a person still needs convincing, I'll usually ask them if they know who Jenny Hardy's coach is, or Miranda Leek's, or Vic's, or Michelle Gilbert's. That usually gets the gray matter working and gives them something to think about.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Shoot the scores plain and simple...beat the best competition there and that will get you recognized...no other way!!



Dewayne Martin


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Social media has brought us to the point now where even after being shown the facts, some people still refuse to believe that anyone they haven't heard of or see pictures of, is qualified. ha, ha.


Therein lies a good part of your problem. Social media has created sheeple at a rate and level that has never been seen before. If it's not on Facebook, Twitter, or instagram, it doesn't exist. America's Got Talent, So You Think You Can Dance, American Idol, etc. all exist to get the contestants noticed. Yeah, the winners take home some cash, but it's really about creating a highlighted group of individuals, establishing a media presence for them, and putting them to work to make the producers and labels money. It wouldn't surprise me that parents are taking that 'knowledge' and somehow thinking they can apply it to sports.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> Shoot the scores plain and simple...beat the best competition there and that will get you recognized...no other way!!
> 
> However, the question nobody wants to talk about - if you do shoot the scores, and end up on podium after podium will you be invited on the "free" trips to exotic lands? A quick review of who wins and who goes is troubling.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> beat the best competition there and that will get you recognized...no other way!!


In the real world, yes. But some in our sport are not playing in the real world at the moment.



> Yeah, the winners take home some cash, but it's really about creating a highlighted group of individuals, establishing a media presence for them, and putting them to work to make the producers and labels money. It wouldn't surprise me that parents are taking that 'knowledge' and somehow thinking they can apply it to sports.


^^^ This.

Corporations figured it out years ago. Disney and Hollywood figured it out. Nascar figured it out. Even the NBA and NFL figured it out. Showcase a few individuals, build their "celebrity" and then cash in on that. 

We're already there Kevin. We're already there.

If you take the most well-known celebrities in our sport at the moment, and really start digging into their archery resume and comparing it to less well known archers who've topped the podiums more consistently, it just doesn't add up. But the rank and file don't know that. And the people creating the myth understand this.

What's really surprising to me is how they can get away with it, even in a sport that is as objective and merit-based as archery. I mean, in team sports, who plays and who sits is usually the coach's call. There is no formal qualification criteria for coming off the bench in the 3rd quarter. It's the coach's call. In judged sports, it's the opinion of the judges (with a few "technical" items thrown in for good measure). So in those situations there is a LOT of room for subjective opinion, and "being noticed" is very important to deciding who wins and who loses. 

All this has to make me wonder how long it will be before some genius at WA decides we have to include style points to keep the audience interested, so that we can continue to build the storylines around the fan favorites. 

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

tjk009 said:


> vabowdog said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot the scores plain and simple...beat the best competition there and that will get you recognized...no other way!!
> ...


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

They are projecting non-archery into archery. I agree that the archery competitions are meritocratic and the national selection system generally so (although you have to afford training, gear, and to go to enough shoots). I used to be a track guy and appreciate a sport where politics are limited and you either put up the performance or not.

But I was also a soccer guy and the reality on regional/national youth teams there, as well as college/pro/etc., is that it's very subjective and I can understand the mentality of best team best coach get recognized. Not saying I agree with pursuing your life that way, but your future is determined in a pretty subjective way. Lot of politics and people who think they can maximize success by spending money and associating themselves with the right people. They are bringing that experience over to archery.

I'd think the way to deflate that would be honesty, the NTs are objectively chosen and often self-funded, the colleges are usually club teams who accept anyone and have varying resources, and the tournaments the best shooter that day wins. I can help you shoot but little in the system rewards recognition. Maybe some top people can subjectively get a sponsor instead of the next guy.


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## levelx (Dec 10, 2013)

Different teen archer has different objective to join JDT. Maybe majority is to be recognized.

Below story is posted in Facebook USA archery page for JDT red team.
http://www.archery360.com/2014/08/c...sia-teaches-young-americans-valuable-lessons/


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

levelx said:


> Different teen archer has different objective to join JDT. Maybe majority is to be recognized.
> 
> Below story is posted in Facebook USA archery page for JDT red team.
> http://www.archery360.com/2014/08/c...sia-teaches-young-americans-valuable-lessons/


When were the trials to determine who would go and represent the United States at the European Junior Cup? Answer: there weren't any.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Sometimes it can be extremely motivating to be recognized for potential success long before a student is able to achieve it. If A student is serious - building not only a coaching relationship but a mentoring one can be important, and incredibly beneficial. And sometimes students need that before they shoot the MQS needed to earn the respect of their peers. 

Having your drive & passion recognized by a respected coach and be taken " under their wing" so to speak before your score card starts to match your passion for the sport is pretty nice to have. 

Different perspectives I suppose.

I imagine if someone who has been in the sport for years and they still believe they need to be a direct student of KSL to ever get anywhere then I can definitely see the frustration there. But for those involved for only 0-2 years - youths and parents - shouldn't patience and information be given before frustrations over their lack of knowledge of the grand structure of US archery be in order?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TomB said:


> When were the trials to determine who would go and represent the United States at the European Junior Cup? Answer: there weren't any.


So, how would you say that fits or doesn't with John's "Getting Recognized" thesis?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

TomB said:


> When were the trials to determine who would go and represent the United States at the European Junior Cup? Answer: there weren't any.


Who knew there was a European Junior Cup and that the US would be represented?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

levelx said:


> Different teen archer has different objective to join JDT. Maybe majority is to be recognized.
> 
> Below story is posted in Facebook USA archery page for JDT red team.
> http://www.archery360.com/2014/08/c...sia-teaches-young-americans-valuable-lessons/


Anyone who wishes to compare participants at this event with the actual USAT rankings can do that now that the 2015 team results have been posted. http://www.teamusa.org/usa-archery/archers/national-teams-and-high-performance/us-archery-team 

It may open a few eyes and prompt a question or two. 



> Sometimes it can be extremely motivating to be recognized for potential success long before a student is able to achieve it. If A student is serious - building not only a coaching relationship but a mentoring one can be important, and incredibly beneficial. And sometimes students need that before they shoot the MQS needed to earn the respect of their peers.
> 
> Having your drive & passion recognized by a respected coach and be taken " under their wing" so to speak before your score card starts to match your passion for the sport is pretty nice to have.
> 
> Different perspectives I suppose.


You are 100% correct. I myself benefited from a couple of great archery mentors early in my target archery days - Robert Wolff and Larry Skinner. They both pulled me aside when I was still just shooting arrows "instinctively" with my longbow and said "you know, you should really try this target archery thing." So I did, out of respect to them. Larry never really coached me, but he encouraged me a lot, and it was Bob Wolff (a NFAA indoor nat's veteran) who I remember telling me "you can beat those guys John. I know you can!" - a very important thing for me to hear early on.

So yea, for some, finding the right coach or mentor is critical. I completely agree. I think everyone would agree with that.

However, what people need to understand is that if the goal is to make an ACTUAL team, like the Jr. World team or the Olympic team or any other team that is selected by how well one shoots, then there is no requirement whatsoever that a person have any kind of status at all. And there is a big misconception out there to that effect.

That's all I'm saying. That needs to change. It should become common knowledge that if a person wishes to "be seen" by "the right people" then that is because they have an itch they need to scratch, and not because it's required in any way to represent the U.S. on an international team selected in a fair and open trials process.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mulcade said:


> Who knew there was a European Junior Cup and that the US would be represented?


Apparently, on the girl's side, archers currently ranked #1, #4, #5 and #7 knew, and on the boy's side, archers currently ranked #2, #3, #5 and #7. 

Sounds about right to me. LOL!


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

Every year, we try to send the JDT Red Team to an international event to get more experience. Normally, we send them to a tournament in South America. This year we looked for a European tournament. The only one available that met the schedule needs of the team and coaches and that we were allowed to attend, was the tournament in Russia so we sent them there. That's it. 

Terry


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Is that a funded trip?


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

Cephas said:


> Is that a funded trip?


Yes and no. Some of the money came from the JDT budget that would have sent the team to South America. The remainder came from donations from parents and coaches of the team. 

Terry


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Beastmaster said:


> tjk009 said:
> 
> 
> > I want to preface this by saying that Denise is in no way at fault with this stuff. Her predecessors are directly to blame for the crap situation our sponsorship situation is in.
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

bownut-tl. said:


> Yes and no. Some of the money came from the JDT budget that would have sent the team to South America. The remainder came from donations from parents and coaches of the team.
> 
> Terry


Terry, you must realize how this looks, esp. at a time when we have a couple dozen archers struggling to fund their trips to Croatia to represent the U.S. at a world championship event. 

Top 3 qualifiers in each division having to raise money to get themselves to a world championships vs. archers who aren't even ranked in the top 4 having their way subsidized to an event nobody has ever heard of. :zip:

I think we can all understand the value of getting international experience. I know I certainly can. But the archers who've qualified for world championship teams should always get the support first. After that's been done, then the "experience" trips should be based on objective rankings.

Pretty tough to sit back and watch two of your students in the same year both qualify 2nd in the trials event, then struggle to fund their own way to an event where world championship medals will be awarded, and then see archers ranked #5 and #7 get help to go to an event nobody has ever heard of. I know I'm not the only coach who's more than a little annoyed by this at the moment.

I think USAA has left itself wide open on this one. 

John


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

I understand your concern. None of the travel funds came from the USAA budget. As far as I know, the JDT obtains no funding from USAA. 

Terry


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Every year, we try to send the JDT Red Team to an international event to get more experience.


Hey here's a thought...

How about instead, that the top 4 ranked archers following Nationals (based on USAT and Jr. USAT rankings) are rewarded for their season-long efforts by sending THEM to an international event at the end of the season?

The same number of archers get an opportunity to gain international experience, the same amount of money is spent, no extra trials events need to be held, but those who earned their way with excellent shooting all year are rewarded for it. It would also give some meaning to earning one's spot onto USAT or Jr. USAT. In fact, it would be the one culminating event where the "T" in USAT actually meant "TEAM."

If the JDT and RA training programs are producing the best archers (and they should be), then there will be plenty of JDT and RA archers taking those spots at that event anyway and nobody will have to answer inconvenient questions. In the case of this event, 4 of the 8 archers would have met those criteria anyway, and the higher ranked archers wouldn't have to sit at home reading articles about events they weren't invited to, despite proving all season that they are more qualified.

Problem solved.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Maybe I should have titled this thread "up and coming archers getting subsidized..."  LOL. 

(trying to keep a sense of humor here)


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Where does JDT funding come from if not from USAA? I know parents fund travel and expenses for camps but what about tournaments like this one?


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

Cephas said:


> Where does JDT funding come from if not from USAA? I know parents fund travel and expenses for camps but what about tournaments like this one?


I will be more definitive and clearer. The JDT funding does not come directly from the USAA. For camps, the USOC sends a bill to the NGB (USAA) and sufficient funds are transferred to the USAA to pay for the camp. For the international tournaments we go to, the USAA is not involved from a funding point of view. We do not ask them to help fund any part of the trip. 

Terry


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

bownut-tl. said:


> I will be more definitive and clearer. The JDT funding does not come directly from the USAA. For camps, the USOC sends a bill to the NGB (USAA) and sufficient funds are transferred to the USAA to pay for the camp. For the international tournaments we go to, the USAA is not involved from a funding point of view. We do not ask them to help fund any part of the trip.
> 
> Terry


Is the JDT a separately incorporated organization with it's own budget and sponsorships for facilities and staff?


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

From an organizational standpoint, we are not separate from the USAA. From a funding source, as I have said, we don't use the USAA or membership funds to pay for the camps, uniforms, or the once a year out of the country trip. Have we had unique sponsors just for the JDT program...no. Unless you are calling one time contributions, by team parents and coaches, sponsors.

This conversation is off topic, and I helped cause it, so I will move on.

Terry


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

bownut-tl. said:


> From an organizational standpoint, we are not separate from the USAA. From a funding source, as I have said, we don't use the USAA or membership funds to pay for the camps, uniforms, or the once a year out of the country trip. Have we had unique sponsors just for the JDT program...no. Unless you are calling one time contributions, by team parents and coaches, sponsors.
> 
> This conversation is off topic, and I helped cause it, so I will move on.
> 
> Terry


Thanks for the info. To those of us on the outside, these things can seem very mysterious since these simple details aren't always readily available from the regular USAA channels.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

So maybe donations to the JDT is a way to get your kid recogined.


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

gairsz said:


> So maybe donations to the JDT is a way to get your kid recogined.


No!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wowzers. I step away to give an archery lesson, and come back to donations, drama, unnamed accounts and suspense. Good grief.

You're right Terry. This has gotten completely off topic. I never meant for this to be about JDT. 

Just trying to clear up some misinformation and a common myth in this sport at the junior levels. I can say that I do know a few JDT coaches who would be right beside me, clearing that myth up as well. That kind of misinformation is not good for the people who believe it, or the programs they believe created it.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Hey here's a thought...
> 
> How about instead, that the top 4 ranked archers following Nationals (based on USAT and Jr. USAT rankings) are rewarded for their season-long efforts by sending THEM to an international event at the end of the season?
> 
> The same number of archers get an opportunity to gain international experience, the same amount of money is spent, no extra trials events need to be held, but those who earned their way with excellent shooting all year are rewarded for it. It would also give some meaning to earning one's spot onto USAT or Jr. USAT. In fact, it would be the one culminating event where the "T" in USAT actually meant "TEAM."


Still thinking this is an easy answer to junior archers gaining international experience, without any controversy. 

It would be nice to see archers compete all season long for an opportunity to travel to one international event.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> You're right Terry. This has gotten completely off topic. I never meant for this to be about JDT.


No, but isn't it something to address, as I think you have, in connection with the concept of "being recognized". I know virtually squat about the JDT, but I can tell you my outsiders impression of it: that being "recognized" is part of getting on it and getting access to experience and training that kids who are not "recognized" don't get. My impression seems to have been partially false and partially true based on the scores you noted and your reaction that USAA should send the top 4 archers subsidized by grant funding rather than the JDT. Anyway, I would think that I'm not unique in impression of the JDT, and that of the archers and parents the JDT would be a key focus/object for seeking "recognition". If you could tell people it is entirely score based, then they'd have to drop the JDT from their concept of faking it till they make it at the OTC and realize that they have earn it entirely on scores, not social, networking skills and helicopter parenting.


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

If you have questions about how archers are selected for the JDT, all you have to do is ask. I can tell you it is not based upon who they are. That stopped years ago. We have a formal selection process now and it has nothing to do with who the archer is, their coach is, their parents are, or anything else other than how they do at the selection camp. Even Coach Lee has no say in who can come or who is selected. I can also tell you that if an archer shows up and demonstrates an attitude that it is all about him or her, we don't want them on the team. Most of the time, the parents aren't at the selection camp, and if they do come, they aren't allowed on the field. The archers are also warned before the camp starts about using their parents or personal coaches to assist them at the camp. If we see them doing it, both are warned again. If it continues the parent or coach has to leave or the archer will be dropped from the camp. We allow them to watch and that's it. 

We allow non JDT members to come to all of our normal camps and offer to help them when they leave if they and their personal coach and parent want our help.

Since our funding is not from the USAA, we will still send a team to an international shoot. If the USAA wants to send a merit based youth team to a shoot, they can do that. It most likely won't impact what we do. 

Terry


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

bownut-tl. said:


> If you have questions about how archers are selected for the JDT, all you have to do is ask. I can tell you it is not based upon who they are. That stopped years ago. We have a formal selection process now and it has nothing to do with who the archer is, their coach is, their parents are, or anything else other than how they do at the selection camp. Even Coach Lee has no say in who can come or who is selected. I can also tell you that if an archer shows up and demonstrates an attitude that it is all about him or her, we don't want them on the team. Most of the time, the parents aren't at the selection camp, and if they do come, they aren't allowed on the field. The archers are also warned before the camp starts about using their parents or personal coaches to assist them at the camp. If we see them doing it, both are warned again. If it continues the parent or coach has to leave or the archer will be dropped from the camp. We allow them to watch and that's it.
> 
> We allow non JDT members to come to all of our normal camps and offer to help them when they leave if they and their personal coach and parent want our help.
> 
> ...


Thanks. This is all good info. Since I don't know if the changes in the JDT selection process merited a press release, or even if it did and people just haven't read it, I expect there are lots of people such as myself who's information on it is vague or outdated. Your posts are helpful in clarifying what the real deal is. I think there are many opportunities for USAA to educate membership and the public with frank and clear information like this.

One question, I'm still wondering, though. I can't tell from your earlier explanation, but it sounds like your funding does come "from" USAA, but that USAA receives specific grants to pay for certain JDT-specific costs, such as OTC facilities costs for the camps, and to subsidize JDT travel.

JDT is not a line item in the USAA published budget, but since you say the JDT isn't a separate org I would think there would be no way to pay it without going through USAA - nobody can make out checks to "JDT". I'm assuming all funds are _via_ USAA and mixed in larger overall categories in the USAA audited accounting, such as grant income and sponsorship income and that expenses would be under high performance or one of the other expense categories. If that is the case, I don't think detracts from your point about major JDT costs not siphoning funds away from USAA general funds and other grants.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If you could tell people it is entirely score based, then they'd have to drop the JDT from their concept of faking it till they make it at the OTC and realize that they have earn it entirely on scores, not social, networking skills and helicopter parenting.


A good example of what I was trying to say,



> I can tell you it is not based upon who they are. That stopped years ago. We have a formal selection process now and it has nothing to do with who the archer is, their coach is, their parents are, or anything else other than how they do at the selection camp. Even Coach Lee has no say in who can come or who is selected.


And glad to see Terry reinforce the idea.

Regarding the funding being "outside" of USAA, that's another topic for another thread. And likely a very interesting one at that.

Hopefully, there will be archers or parents out there who will read this and start to think about whether their perceptions of how important it is to be "noticed" are true or not. If that happens, then it's served it's purpose.

John


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