# At what time does an aggressive release become a "punch"????



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

When it is ignited consciously.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

your shot process should run the same at 60 yards as it does at 10 or 20. when you alter it for distance, you are consciously controlling it. it may not be a punch, so to speak, but it's definitely something more than "aggressive". the term "aggressive" just refers to the condition that the shot isn't "timid".....an aggressive execution, is executed with a purposeful deliberation that infers the confidence that puts the arrow in the middle.
ironically, it is more usual that timid shots, end up being punched shots.


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## jpotter (Nov 4, 2012)

Thanks.


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## jpotter (Nov 4, 2012)

*pps*

Ron W. Went and shot some. your rite on post was the answer I was hoping I could get someone to articulate it. 

Thanks again.

Let it float..shoot the shot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

60435 said:


> everything needs to be the same 1 yard or 100yards, you can be agerssive but its more important to be smooth
> this palm shoe is excelent. there is nothing else that compares, coopsbowsmith.com


Lost me. Poster has what release? For a thumb release? Cushion?

My ST360, barrel to bone.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Ditto. Not sure how that relates to punching vs. aggressive shooting, but I never tried one.
I'm happy shooting a set up like Sonny's pic when shooting a trigger.


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## jpotter (Nov 4, 2012)

I have a No limit Ringer Release, using back tension release system to fire it. ron.w came the closest to what I was thinking about the diff btwn punch and aggressive shot. Good enough for me. Appreciate all input.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well if you plan on executing a smooth shot but during that shot you run out of breath or patients and you just want to get rid of the arrow you will punch. Being aggressive has nothing to do with punching, letting frustration dictate when the release firesis the problem. Being aggressive is about the amount of back wall pressure you use and do you just stand there passivly waiting for the release to fire or are you creating good rotation knowing that you are going to shoot a solid shot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Well if you plan on executing a smooth shot but during that shot you run out of breath or patients and you just want to get rid of the arrow you will punch. Being aggressive has nothing to do with punching, letting frustration dictate when the release firesis the problem. Being aggressive is about the amount of back wall pressure you use and do you just stand there passivly waiting for the release to fire or are you creating good rotation knowing that you are going to shoot a solid shot.


Good point regardless of release aid. Rock hard wall on my two bows, I'm on the wall, release hand...passive? On target, I let my thumb touch the thumb barrel and just keep aiming. Add force and that's what you have, a forced shot and forced is not so good... There are days when I'm off, sunlight, probably brain dead when aiming, but just letting the shot happen will get me a vane ripped or a busted nock and yesterday, pin bushing pin bent and grooved deeply - additions to my broken arrow stuff bag.


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## CGcook (Nov 25, 2012)

I shoot the TB360 very similar to the pictures above, It was a great release to get me off of target panic. Put the trigger back near the meaty part of your palm tip of your thumb resting inline with your wrist, start drawing with your index finger and get it set up to where you can kinda get a rocking horse motion off the middle finger. To trigger my shot which is kinda semi aggressive, its all about letting go of your index finger pressure and pulling thru the wall with your middle finger. There is a good video Levi morgan shot explaining his release style. But regardless of how far you are from the target its all the same, Aim small at the center hold your float, pull, pull,pull till it goes off.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Michelle raggsdale, was a great proponent of the "grabbing a fist full of release" school of thought. her releases were specifically sprung hard, so that she could grab a handful of the release and not worry about it going off. 
one good thing about that, is that it requires a deliberately positive and aggressive shot execution, to get the release to fire. many people who tried her releases, handed them back to her, saying they couldn't get the thing to go off.
she used to post on here about it all the time, back when many of the country's top pros were on this site, all the time, beforethis site developed it's argumentively in-sociable attitude it now has..
too many people think they are either above being told something, they think they know better than everyone else, or because they do, what works for everyone else in the world, doesn't work for them.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

padgett said:


> well if you plan on executing a smooth shot but during that shot you run out of breath or patients and you just want to get rid of the arrow you will punch. Being aggressive has nothing to do with punching, letting frustration dictate when the release firesis the problem. Being aggressive is about the amount of back wall pressure you use and do you just stand there passivly waiting for the release to fire or are you creating good rotation knowing that you are going to shoot a solid shot.


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Quote = Being aggressive has nothing to do with punching, letting frustration dictate when the release firesis the problem. Being aggressive is about the amount of back wall pressure you use and do you just stand there passivly waiting for the release to fire or are you creating good rotation knowing that you are going to shoot a solid shot.[/quote]

====
X2


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Like Michelle, I have my ST360s set heavy with the heavy springs. People ask how I make it go off, it's that hard. Had a PSE Pro Staff member try my ST360. After just a few shots he says; "Now I know why (ASA Pro) Danny Evans loves these releases."


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Unk Bond said:


> ================
> 
> Quote = Being aggressive has nothing to do with punching, letting frustration dictate when the release firesis the problem. Being aggressive is about the amount of back wall pressure you use and do you just stand there passivly waiting for the release to fire or are you creating good rotation knowing that you are going to shoot a solid shot.


====
X2[/QUOTE]

Not disagreeing, but.... cable stop bows (give) are one type of animal and limb stop bows (no give) are another type of animal. A different approach with a whip and chair tames them both


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the problem with defining an aggressive shot, is where do you draw the line between consciously running the shot, in the interest of it being, "aggressive" and letting the shot proceed on it's natural sub conscious cadence. you have to train the aggressiveness into the subconscious process of the shot, or you will be consciously running it to make it an "aggressive shot".


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Nice thread. My thoughts: when my brain says "Now." That's the punch moment. Doesn't matter what release is in my hand or how aggressively I've gotten into the shot. I totally agree with all responses that point toward a "thought-free" release. Aggressiveness is a necessary part of my shot execution. Without it, I get lazy, my back pressure drops, and my stability suffers. Don't know if everyone needs aggression in their shot; maybe, assertiveness; certainly confidence.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that's just it, "aggressive" has to be looked at as not deliberately or consciously administered, but as just positively confident in it's execution. the best shots are just above timid and lazy, in that area of "letting them run at their own trained pace". the key is finding the pace that produces best for you and then training the shot to consistently run at that pace.


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## jpotter (Nov 4, 2012)

When I opened this thread I was hopeful that it would go where I would hope, with input from experienced and experimental techniques from "good shooters" and has produced some good discussion and worthwile results. Appreciate all of the opinions stated here. Always a learning process or should I say refinement.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I believe the "aggressive" release evolves into a punch shot when the release no longer activates as a surprise. If you know the instant it is going to release. you will know you punched it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

not necessarily true,..
there is a well established drill , known as "the shot window drill" that teaches the shot to go off in specific amount of time with a consistent coordination that coincides with the few seconds of least float range during a shot execution. 
when are successful in applying this drill to your shot routine, you know almost exactly, when the shot will break, because you are aware of when your float minimizes. the training teaches you to tolerate knowing when the shot is going to break.
I have used this drill extensively, several years ago, when I was shooting more competitively, because it is based around the fact that there is a specific time in a person's shot execution where, when the shot breaks, it produces an x. that time, is the "shot window' and the main element of the drill is learning when that time is and developing the shot to break during that time.
if you know when that time is, and you develop your shot to break during that time, you know when the is going to break and it cannot be a "surprise", anymore.
all of you think a "surprise release" is an essential part of a good shot, should search the term "shot window drill"


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

A dead release hand at the shot is a general clue of punching. If you ever start feeling an occasional little electrical nerve shock (flinch) just at the moment of the shot, that should also be a clue that you are making it happen (punching) instead of letting it happen. Full blown TP likely to follow.

Talking about surprise. No one looks more surprised than Reo when his shot goes off. Yeah, yeah, Ron, I know---he really did know it was going off (sooner or later).


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

TNMAN said:


> Talking about surprise. No one looks more surprised than Reo when his shot goes off.


Yep. And he has said "you don't know when it's going off, well, you kind of do, but you don't." Translated means; if it's in the dot it's going off, if you're in the dot you know it's about to go off." Once again, very simple.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

If it isn't a surprise, you made it go off yourself - by definition a punch


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if that's the case, every shot you make is a punch...the release doesn't go off by itself.
the differential, is that those with a good execution, have trained their process, to react naturally to the shot breaking.......to not interfere with the natural expansion that happens when the shot breaks. you can still know when the shot is going to break, you can also have the discipline to not mentally or physically interfere with what happens when the shot breaks. 
Reo's explosion is exactly that condition. he gets good compression on the load up, and a naturally, "un-interfered with", expansion, when the shot breaks. that doesn't say in any way, what so ever, that he DOESN'T know when the shot will break. 
a little research, into the function of your "internal clock" will explain what is going on.

tinman,
the "shot window drill that I talk about, was taught to me here, on this forum, by Reo Wilde, when he was on here everyday, before all the pros got fed up with all the rhetoric and negativity set forth by people who don't want to hear anything constructive from someone that might know what is going on.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I think that you can still have a surprise, AND have it go off in a shot window.
Yes, you know it will go off, and you have a good idea of when, just not exactly. If you have trained your shot window so small that it is with in your reaction time, you are going to start punching and it will be a detriment.
A shot window of a couple of seconds still leaves plenty of surprise, and your reaction will not affect the arrow.
The key is a window allows for a surprise, and exact time does not.
Even Reo still says the hinge going off is a surprise, a known (or suspected...my words) window, but still a surprise within that window.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Mahly said:


> I think that you can still have a surprise, AND have it go off in a shot window.
> Yes, you know it will go off, and you have a good idea of when, just not exactly. If you have trained your shot window so small that it is with in your reaction time, you are going to start punching and it will be a detriment.
> A shot window of a couple of seconds still leaves plenty of surprise, and your reaction will not affect the arrow.
> The key is a window allows for a surprise, and exact time does not.


This.... This is what I'm starting to converge on as I learn to use my hinge - there's a definite window starting to appear where I have some idea of when/where it will go off. The hazard, that I started noticing not too long ago, is if I get too precise about it - I can feel myself starting to drift back into commanding the shot. so yes, punching a hinge can be done and I've definitely done it LOL......

So for me, one of my tasks is to not get too much precision into the idea of a shot window. I agree I have to get the shot off after a certain period of time, else I get tired and the scope really starts wandering all over the place... but I'm finding that too much refinement here can bring back my target panic/shot command.... 

Awesome thread, folks, learning tons reading this.....

LS


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Lazarus said:


> Yep. And he has said "you don't know when it's going off, well, you kind of do, but you don't." Translated means; if it's in the dot it's going off, if you're in the dot you know it's about to go off." Once again, very simple.


Like Ron's explanation I also have to agree with this one with the exception of "if I'm in the dot I am pulling and concentrating on aiming as my shot engine has been engaged". Sometimes for unknown reasons if things deteriorate before it goes off I abort the firing engine.


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Mahly said:


> I think that you can still have a surprise, AND have it go off in a shot window.
> Yes, you know it will go off, and you have a good idea of when, just not exactly. If you have trained your shot window so small that it is with in your reaction time, you are going to start punching and it will be a detriment.
> A shot window of a couple of seconds still leaves plenty of surprise, and your reaction will not affect the arrow.
> The key is a window allows for a surprise, and exact time does not.


:thumbs_up


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

ILOVE3D said:


> Like Ron's explanation I also have to agree with this one with the exception of "if I'm in the dot I am pulling and concentrating on aiming as my shot engine has been engaged". Sometimes for unknown reasons if things deteriorate before it goes off I abort the firing engine.


that's exactly what you should do. and an essential part of the shot window drill, teaches you to abandon the shot if it time goes past what has been established as your "ideal shot time". that abandonment, teaches your shot execution, and your release process, to get off it's butt and produce the shot that goes in the middle. the time element is closely related to the period of least float range. that period, when it is most probable, ta the shot breaking then, will go where the sights are pointing. 
your internal clock, being agenda driven, knows to coordinate the release process in coordination with the period of least float during the execution, that's it's job in being agenda driven. 
when you abandon a "long running execution", you are dangling the carrot in front of it's nose....."get off your butt and produce the shot, or you won't get the carrot". the carrot is the agenda driven internal clock's reward of an arrow in the x ring. it here fore works harder to make that shot happen in the time frame of least float. the more it gets reinforced with the drill, the keener it gets in establishing that time of process. the keener it gets, the more you recognize when the shot is going to break.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I may be getting to understanding what you are talking about although I don't totally agree with it. Personally, I use a "counting clock" in my mind counting down from 20 as I bring the bow up to draw. It does two things for me. It keeps me totally concentrated on aiming (no outside disruption or "bad thoughts" to cloud my mind) and it creates what I think you are calling a shot window. My shot is always a total surprise in that I don't know when it will go, but it is sometime in the count down between 8 and 2. It it doesn't go then, it is time to let down and start over. I never, ever, "make the shot go" though; it just has to happen.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

rsw said:


> I may be getting to understanding what you are talking about although I don't totally agree with it. Personally, I use a "counting clock" in my mind counting down from 20 as I bring the bow up to draw. It does two things for me. It keeps me totally concentrated on aiming (no outside disruption or "bad thoughts" to cloud my mind) and it creates what I think you are calling a shot window. My shot is always a total surprise in that I don't know when it will go, but it is sometime in the count down between 8 and 2. It it doesn't go then, it is time to let down and start over. I never, ever, "make the shot go" though; it just has to happen.


==================

Hello
I have timed a lot of archers at the line. Using 1 to 20. At 17 that archer was in trouble. 13 pro status 
Reverencing the scale 20 to 1. I feel a 3 you are in trouble. If your shot is made at 7.you are in the pro status class. [ Later


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sounds about right for the "countdown method". both it, and the shot window drill have the same agenda, just different methodologies.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Great thread folks well don thanks for the clear and concise pathway to a proper shot window based execution.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the "count down" method does a better job of training you to know when the shot is coming, that the "shot window" method. in the count down method you are deliberately associating a specific number and counting cadence to the shot's breaking. how can it not train you to expect the shot at a specific time ?. think "jack in the box", a mom will count up to the clown popping out of the box, and then "act surprised" when it pops up, for the benefit of her little baby. counting is exactly how the "inner clock" works internally. it coordinates repetitious actions on "clock based", or "count based" analog, to tailor it's commands for the best efficiency of operation.
both methods use a "count based" coordinator. the shot window method, has you counting up, to shot breaking, once the average time is established, so that you know when to let down on a shot that is running too long and getting past the floats, window of opportunity to produce the best result.
either way, you are associating a a specific value in either time or count, to the shot breaking and tailoring your execution to run within that specific value.
the only amount of "surprise", is based on how well your shot process has been trained to react naturally, to the break of tension you have established, as you hold while aiming.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Right now as I really have ramped up my ability to shoot really strong my surprise is a different kind of surprise than it was in the beginning, as a beginning hinge shooter I didn't have the draw cycle and getting anchored and settled in or the firing method all nailed down so when you add up all of those issues you end up with the ultimate surprise releases. they are more violent and explosive and shocking than the surprise releases I am having now. 

Right now every little detail of my shot has been refined for hundreds of thousands of shots and I have absolutely nothing out of place when I execute shots and because of this my shots are breaking much more consistantly within a smaller window of time and sure they are a surprise.

The key is once you get to this level you have totally disconnected your firing of the release from the aiming process so there is no anticipation that creates target panic, sure you have a really good idea that the release is getting ready to fire but not exactly.


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