# Sticky  Third Axis



## Bellows1

If you do a search on 3rd axis, Nuts and Bolts has done a great job of explaining it several times.


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## nuts&bolts

*3rd axis adjustment on your sight*



LiteSpeed1 said:


> Can someone please explain third axis tuning?


LiteSpeed1:

2ND AXIS

2nd axis on your sight is basically making sure the bubble level
on your sight reads level when the bow is vertical.

This presumes that your string is vertical when the bow is also vertical.
You essentially figure a way to hold your bow vertical (use a bow vise),
and then check to see that your bubble level in the sight is also reading vertical.

If not, then adjust the bubble level with the 2nd axis adjustment,
to make the bubble level on your sight read level, when the bow and bowstring are vertical.

3RD AXIS

Ok, so now we understand what 2nd axis is on your sight.

So, what is 3rd axis?

Remember your sight ring is on a threaded rod?

Well, what if the entire sight ring was mounted on a door hinge?

Yup. What if the entire sight ring could swing like a door?
You could swing the door towards you or away from you.

Well, let's say we swing the door towards you 45 degrees.
The bubble level still reads level, i.e., the threaded rod is still horizontal.

You know what will happen on a steep uphill shot?
Even if you aim uphill, and your bow is not tilted left or right,
the bubble level will lie to you and force you to tilt your bow.

Try this with a 24-inch level. Hold the level in your hand so that it is still horizontal, but the angle between the level and your arm is 45 degrees, as if you swung a door towards you. Raise your arm towards the ceiling.
The bubble level will not stay in the middle.

Adjust the third axis on your sight is the same as adjust the door swing so that it is 90 degrees.

HOW TO ADJUST 3RD AXIS



3rd axis will affect uphill shots (NFAA field rounds) or downhill shots (from a treestand).

Imagine that your sight ring is a door. If you bump your sight ring into a tree, the sight ring may bend towards you like swinging a door closer to your face. Let's say the sight ring "door" opened towards you 45-degrees. The bubble still reads level when you hold the riser straight up and down.

Now, hang a weighted string from the ceiling. 
Kneel down on your knees, load an arrow in a safe spot, come to full draw and anchor. 
Line up the weighted string with the left edge of the riser and your limbs.

Take a look at the bubble. 
The riser and limbs are vertical because you are lined up with the weighted string. 
If the sight ring threaded rod is bent towards you or away from you, 
the bubble will not read level even though you are not canting the bow.

Adjusting the 3rd axis of a bow restores the sight ring door swing 
back to 90 degrees, perpendicular to the sight frame. 
The best way to check is kneeling down on your knees, 
aiming up at a weighted string hanging from the ceiling.

If your sight has 3rd axis adjustment, then adjust away.

If you sight does not have 3rd axis adjustment, 
you will need to use shims to adjust the entire sight or just the sight ring.


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## LiteSpeed1

Thanks nuts&bolts.


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## Archer1eroc

*Nicely done*

Very good explanation


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## plottman

this is why archery talk is great


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## MonzaRacer

*third axis*

check this site out too,http://www.archerytech.com/


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## voxito

another way is to get a level door frame, (target sight only method) place your sight bar level with the door frame, adjust 2nd axis there, point your scope at the ceiling and check it agian


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## Mexican 3D

nuts&bolts said:


> LiteSpeed1:
> 
> 
> Now, hang a weighted string from the ceiling.
> Kneel down on your knees, load an arrow in a safe spot, come to full draw and anchor.
> Line up the weighted string with the left edge of the riser and your limbs.
> 
> Take a look at the bubble.
> The riser and limbs are vertical because you are lined up with the weighted string.
> If the sight ring threaded rod is bent towards you or away from you,
> the bubble will not read level even though you are not canting the bow.


when lining up the weighted string with the edge of the bow, are you aiming up, or just horizontally??

thanx!!


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## Fletcher D

Aiming high


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## Tmaziarz

*Check out HTM for 3rd axis adjustment*

WWW.HTMbowsights.com

I shot terrible at my first IBO this weekend at Bedford , IN
I was right on with all my yardage estimates but was shooting left on uphill and right on down hill shoot.
I never had shot at these steep of angles.

I heard that a company would check you 3rd axis alignment at the vendor building. I went and found this company called HTM.

They were selling a machine that every serious archery shop should have.
the HTM precision 3rd axis bow vise. They were able to adjust my bow on site and show me that I came to the IBO unprepared.

I might have to buy this for my home.


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## jwolfe78

Tmaziarz said:


> WWW.HTMbowsights.com
> 
> I shot terrible at my first IBO this weekend at Bedford , IN
> I was right on with all my yardage estimates but was shooting left on uphill and right on down hill shoot.
> I never had shot at these steep of angles.
> 
> I heard that a company would check you 3rd axis alignment at the vendor building. I went and found this company called HTM.
> 
> They were selling a machine that every serious archery shop should have.
> the HTM precision 3rd axis bow vise. They were able to adjust my bow on site and show me that I came to the IBO unprepared.
> 
> I might have to buy this for my home.



That is one of the best third axis tools I have seen.....


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## ky_bowhunter

*level wall?*

Couldnt you just hold your bow against a straight and level wall and tilt it forward and backwards with the limbs flush against the wall to check for 3rd axis?


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## RepinTheAdmiral

*3rd*

I have a 3rd axis sight on my bow but still do not understand when i need to mess with it..


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## Dave V

It's there to compensate for vertical tilt like when you're angling down in a tree stand or angling up when shooting a long distance shot.

When the bow is dead vertical (checked usually in a bow vise with a second level) you tilt the bow forward or back and check to see if your sight level is still centered. If not, that's when you use the 3rd axis adjust.


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## mavrick73

thanks for the explanation everyone i wasnt sure what third axis was before i read all the chatter and i get it now i am am also going to rethink my opinion about going out and getting a third axis sight boy the wife is gonna love this one


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## bass-n-bucks95

all it does is if your shoting uphin or downhill it adjust so you hit your animal at the same spot as you would if you were on flat ground


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## b_vanfossen

anyone have an explanation of how to adjust for this? 

If aiming up hill and the bubble is right- do this....? 

If aiming down hill and the bubble is left- do this...?


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## Hana Pa'a

b_vanfossen said:


> anyone have an explanation of how to adjust for this?
> 
> If aiming up hill and the bubble is right- do this....?
> 
> If aiming down hill and the bubble is left- do this...?


This is pretty simple, this is for a right handed bow so the opposite is true for left.

If the bubble is to the right while aiming up hill the housing needs to be turned clockwise about the axis (away from the riser)

Just the opposite is true for a downhill shot if aiming down hill and the bubble is to the right you need to move the housing counterclockwise (towards the riser)

Hope this helps.

Aloha


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## princejohn

*3rd axis*

For those who have read N & B but still dont understand let me describe it as I understand it.
First u need sto set your bow vertical, I do this by cutting a piece of aluminium angle or even a piece of wood drilling a hole in one end and bolting it to the stabaliser hole and then locking the other end of the angle or wood into a vice. (I use this system for tying nocks, setting peeps etc) using a small bubble level (say 6")set the bow vertical by putting the level on the sight window and rotating the bow until set.
Place the level vertical on the vertical bar of the sight and without moving teh bow set the bar vertical by undoing the 2 screws and rotating the bar. You have now set the 1st axis.
Look at the scope bubble, if that is displaced left or right then undo the locking screws and adjust the scope up or down until the bubble is level. You have now set the 2nd axis.
Now remove the bow from the vice and set the bow against a vertical surface say a door or wall with the bottom cam and stabaliser on the floor Use your 6" level to set the bow vertical on the string or sight window. The bow will be angled forward onto the stabaliser . Check where the scope bubble is , if it is left or right loosen teh 3rd axis screws and move the scope forward or back until bubble is in the middle. Now set your bow vertical i.e. the stabaliser straight up once again check bow is vertical. Check out he scope bubble, in this case if you did the previous adjustment correctly teh bubble should remain in the middle -if not adjust and recheck the previous setting.
You have now set the 3rd axis
To explain the third axis try a simple test. Hold the bow in front of you as if you were shooting it. Hold it with the bow hand alone lets adjust the bow so that he scope bubble is in teh middle. Now twist your wrist say toward the right, still keeping the bubble in teh middle. Now keeping your wrist twisted raise you arm upward. In this case (assume right handed) then bubble will move to the left. If you were shooting uphill and your scope was twisted toward you then thi what will happen and you would rotate you bow to get the bubble back in the middle which would be wrong and the arrow ould land to the left of the target??


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## Kadob62

Heres a real simply way to set both the 2nd and 3rd axis. Get youself a quality metal faced carpenters level, simply secure the level ("LEVEL") vertically in a vise. Take you're sight bracket and hold it against the side of the level, now adjust the 2nd axis so it is also level (the bubble in you're sight), this will be done by rotating the sight housing clockwise or counter clockwise. Now holding the sight mounting bracket against the level, piviot the front of the sight upward and downward, you will now adjust the 3rd axis, the sight housing will need to either need to be moved inward or outward to make sure the sight bubble stays level as you piviot the front of the sight up and down. Hope this simple version may be of some help. Good Luck!


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## matt3

anyone know a good set of bubbles/tools one can buy to adjust 3rd axis?


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## duxbux

I need a video of setting 3rd axis. Anyone?


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## bkmilw

Kadob62 explained this pretty much the easiest way to understand, at least in my mind.:darkbeer:


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## Silent Death 54

I understand what was said. Yet I have a question...

What effect, if any, does this adjustment have on shooting horizontally ? Does one have to compensate for the 3rd axis adjustment in ANY way ??

Stay Safe,
Franz


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## Bow-Captain

*"Effects of Canting"*

First question (answer):
There is no effect on Horiz. shooting, as you have already corrected the sight adjustment for that particular angle (lets say 0° (horiz.)). This would hold true for any angle of shot, whether uphill or downhill. Shooting at the "exact" same angle for each shot will allow the arrows to "group" similarily, but the group will just be displaced. Don't forget gravities effect on those extreme up or down shots, as they would naturally be "High".

Second question (answer):
No!, If you are a target shooter and always shoot on level ground. 
Yes!, If you are a BowHunter, where you may need to shoot at any angle, or any angle that may not be the same as that of which you sighted the bow in at.

Most people here are confusing "Cause" with "Effect". 

The "Cause" = A mis-aligned 3rd axis. (the axis perpendicular to the riser face).
If the axis of the bubble level isn't perpendicular to the "Riser's" face, then the bubble level will have one of its endcaps pointing towards, or away from the shooter. This is not a problem shooting on level ground, because reguardless of the endcaps orientation on this horiz. plane, it is still level with the ground, and will read "true level" reguardless how you spin around. The problem is when you need to rotate the bow in a vertical manner to shoot up or down. 

Lets say you are a Right-handed shooter, and the your sight bumped a tree, as mentioned earlier in this post. The impact has bent the sight back towards the shooter. The bubble level's left endcap is now closer to the shooter than the right endcap. Now, if you rotate the bow upward for a shot, you can visualize that the left endcap will be now be lower than the right endcap. The shooter see's the bubble displacement to the right, then cants the bow to the right (CW) to compensate. Thus the "Effect"

The "Effect" = Canting. (Canting (with regards to archery) = rotation about the axis of the shooting arm).

The effects of canting can be simulated on level ground.
To simulate this overall effect, and its magnitude on your shot displacement, take your bow and shoot a few arrows on level ground to establish a baseline group, keeping your bubble level reading horizontal. Next, cant your bow slightly, either right or left, like you see the Indian's doing on TV during a buffallo hunt on horseback (how is that for descriptive). Cant the bow until the bubble on your level just touches it farthest extreme. I use this example, because you will need to duplicate this canting angle for each shot if you expect to get the same size group. Don't be affraid to cant your bow 45° or more (like the Indian's), just figure out a way for you to reproduce that cant angle for each shot. Now take a few more shots. Notice that your "group" should have remained the same size, but your "Group" placement on the target has changed. 

Typically, if you "cant" the top of the bow to the right (CW), the shot will displace to the right, and a left "cant" (CCW) will displace a shot to the left. In both cases the vertical shot displacement will typically be lower.

This is the same effect you have with canting a rifle, twisting it right (CW) or left (CCW) . The reason for the shot displacements have to do with the horiz. (windage) & vert. (drop) adjustments you have "dailed-in" on the sight.

Image you have "Zero" windage, and +12" of drop adjusted into your sight. Now exaggerate the effects of canting by rotating the bow/gun/sight a full 90° (CW). You now have 12" or more of right windage, and "Zero" for drop. Your shot would land approx 12" to the right and 12" low. You can see by this example, that the further the shot the worst the error, mainly due to the ever increasing trajectory corrections needed in the sight.

Sorry this was so long, but I hope this helps answer all those remaining question on this subject.


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## Ancient Archer

Bow-Captain - excellent definition and description. Well done!


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## shec6135

i don't even look at my level when shooting to tell you the truth, i'm not a target shooter, just a bow hunter.but is this 3rd axis an attempt to get the sites at a 90 degree angle with the riser? b/c if so THAT i get...:set1_thinking:


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## b_vanfossen

shec6135 said:


> i don't even look at my level when shooting to tell you the truth, i'm not a target shooter, just a bow hunter.but is this 3rd axis an attempt to get the sites at a 90 degree angle with the riser? b/c if so THAT i get...:set1_thinking:


3rd axis is so your site is accurate uphill and downhill. which of course is important for a tree stand hunter.


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## shec6135

b_vanfossen said:


> 3rd axis is so your site is accurate uphill and downhill. which of course is important for a tree stand hunter.


we all know why it's important, that wasn't my question. my question was asking whether this 3rd axis was the need to find 90 degrees in between sites and riser. and the answer is YES it is. but like i said before i don't use my bubble level so as long as you don't either you could always have a bow that its third axis was off, and you would never know. but i understand the importance, that was never in question


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## hoyt3

Ok, do you have to have a third axis sight to accomplish this? Otherwise you are putting shims in, correct?


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## ex-diver

Great info guys. If you get an opportunity check out www.bowcast.com and www.hamskeaarchery.com. Bowcast has Tim Gillingham on their latest podcast explaining the 3rd axis topic with videos. I believe Tim G is owner or co-owner of Hamskea Archery.

_Stay thirsty my friends_,
G


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## WA.bowman

Exdiver,Tim had some great info on the web cast and in the video's.Thank you
After watching and listening to Tim i had to get some into my shop.


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## ex-diver

:thumbs_up

G


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## Cheetn Death

Hey new to AT and just familiarizing myself and discovered this topic which recently I was dealing with. Internet surfing I discovered the Spot Hogg website and quickly realized I had found a gold rush of all things archery! Anyway they detailed 3rd axis leveling and said that it is imperative that it be done while at FULL DRAW so as to factor in the torque of the bow also. And seeing as that they were one of the first sight manufacturers to include 2nd and 3rd axis leveling I would presume they might know something about this! Nevertheless, I have used their technique and it has improved my ups and downs immensely! spot-hogg.com


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## bowhntng4evr

nuts&bolts said:


> LiteSpeed1:
> 
> 2ND AXIS
> 
> 2nd axis on your sight is basically making sure the bubble level
> on your sight reads level when the bow is vertical.
> 
> This presumes that your string is vertical when the bow is also vertical.
> You essentially figure a way to hold your bow vertical (use a bow vise),
> and then check to see that your bubble level in the sight is also reading vertical.
> 
> If not, then adjust the bubble level with the 2nd axis adjustment,
> to make the bubble level on your sight read level, when the bow and bowstring are vertical.
> 
> 3RD AXIS
> 
> Ok, so now we understand what 2nd axis is on your sight.
> 
> So, what is 3rd axis?
> 
> Remember your sight ring is on a threaded rod?
> 
> Well, what if the entire sight ring was mounted on a door hinge?
> 
> Yup. What if the entire sight ring could swing like a door?
> You could swing the door towards you or away from you.
> 
> Well, let's say we swing the door towards you 45 degrees.
> The bubble level still reads level, i.e., the threaded rod is still horizontal.
> 
> You know what will happen on a steep uphill shot?
> Even if you aim uphill, and your bow is not tilted left or right,
> the bubble level will lie to you and force you to tilt your bow.
> 
> Try this with a 24-inch level. Hold the level in your hand so that it is still horizontal, but the angle between the level and your arm is 45 degrees, as if you swung a door towards you. Raise your arm towards the ceiling.
> The bubble level will not stay in the middle.
> 
> Adjust the third axis on your sight is the same as adjust the door swing so that it is 90 degrees.
> 
> HOW TO ADJUST 3RD AXIS
> 
> 
> 
> 3rd axis will affect uphill shots (NFAA field rounds) or downhill shots (from a treestand).
> 
> Imagine that your sight ring is a door. If you bump your sight ring into a tree, the sight ring may bend towards you like swinging a door closer to your face. Let's say the sight ring "door" opened towards you 45-degrees. The bubble still reads level when you hold the riser straight up and down.
> 
> Now, hang a weighted string from the ceiling.
> Kneel down on your knees, load an arrow in a safe spot, come to full draw and anchor.
> Line up the weighted string with the left edge of the riser and your limbs.
> 
> Take a look at the bubble.
> The riser and limbs are vertical because you are lined up with the weighted string.
> If the sight ring threaded rod is bent towards you or away from you,
> the bubble will not read level even though you are not canting the bow.
> 
> Adjusting the 3rd axis of a bow restores the sight ring door swing
> back to 90 degrees, perpendicular to the sight frame.
> The best way to check is kneeling down on your knees,
> aiming up at a weighted string hanging from the ceiling.
> 
> If your sight has 3rd axis adjustment, then adjust away.
> 
> If you sight does not have 3rd axis adjustment,
> you will need to use shims to adjust the entire sight or just the sight ring.


Text book explanation. Nuts&Bolts explains it better than I have ever read in any archery magazine.


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## hoytjw

thanks nuts and bolts, i was going to ask the same question about 3rd axis


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## Kblair85

*Absolutely Necessary?*

I'm thinking about going with the BG Flashpoint and it doesn't have 3rd axis. Is 3rd axis absolutely necessary? I've never used them before?
Thanks gentleman


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## IrkedCitizen

Kblair85 said:


> I'm thinking about going with the BG Flashpoint and it doesn't have 3rd axis. Is 3rd axis absolutely necessary? I've never used them before?
> Thanks gentleman


Watch these videos.

http://www.hamskeaarchery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=7&Itemid=63


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## psipower

Good info here... thank you for the diversified explanations.


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## Sparky1179

Hamskeaarchery.com makes a great third axis sight level. Check it out.


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## wwells

This really helped me. Now I just need to get that Sure-Loc Lethal Weapon installed and setup!


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## phoenix 36

One thing that I have noticed is the absence of the reference to the first axis.The first axis is the vertical travel of your scope/pins (up/down) the block.This is impotant because if it is not set to follow your string or arrow path then as you adjust your scope up and down you may be adding windage which will cause you to shoot left or right.A good example of this would be an archer killing the bulls eye at 20 yards but shooting left or right at 40/50 and it may not be a big left or right but enough to give you a 50/50 result because you are only catching half the bulls eye (L/R) and the further the shot the bigger the error.A 4' level on your bow dose not guarantee that your string/arrow flight and scope all line up even when the bubbles line up(in some cases it may).But as some one pointed out you may have to take into consideration shooter and bow torque.To shoot in your first and third axis is the best way (and I may be wrong).When I set up my sight I first set my scopes relationship to the block or second axis I do this using a torpedo level against the sights block which I plumb and then I adjust my scopes bubble to match my torpedo.
To shoot in or check your first axis you need a tall target with the middle at about chest height.Then some heavy duty card board,2' level and a sharpie.Place the cardboard on your target and using your level draw a plumb/vertical line.In the center of the plumb line draw a 1" dot.Grab your bow 2 arrows and stand in front of your target at about 10 feet, set your sight on 15 yards place your pin on the dot check to see if your scope bubble is in the middle and take your shot(adjust your sight until you hit the line not the dot, only adjust L/R, when you are hitting the line with your 15y mark (which will be below the dot)set your sight on 80y and again shoot at the dot, you will hit hi(be sure that you have enough target above the dot to catch your arrow 15 " or so (depending on how fast your bow shoots) if all is good you will hit the line if not then you will be L/R of the line.For shooters with hunting sights with multi pin or single pin rear adjustment and which have first, second and third axis adjustment shoot your shortest 20y? and longest 60y?(you know what you shoot).If you are not hitting the line then as you shoot from near to far you are unknowingly adding windage.To fix this you have to make an adjustment to the block.(you will have to dig up your sights directions).On a target sight this adjustment is located where the extension bar and the block connect(the block is the part of the sight that houses the worm gear that when turned moves the scope up/down, on hunting sights this first axis adjustment may be in the extension or where the extension and the sight body/block come together?)you are looking to make an adjustment to this part only NOT the scope/bubble(yes if you move this block you move the bubble, but you do not change the relationship between the block and the bubble).I will try to explain this adjustment?
Lets use the clock face, a perfect test would show arrow strikes a 12 and 6 but we have 11 and 6.Standing with your bow in the shooting position our sights top needs to go to the right and the bottom needs to go left (right handed shooter).Open the 2 screws make the adjustment and re shoot.Shoot untill you get 12 & 6.After you have adjusted the block you will have to sight in again using your short distance to hit the line. This now tells you that your sight is now moving up and down in line with the flight path of the string.At this point I am ready to set my third axis which I shoot in also.At my local club I shoot some groupes at 60 yards and when I'm hitting in the middle I move over to the 60 yard up hill target and I send some arrows its way.If they are not in the middle I then adjust the third axis which some have described as a hinge on the scope block.If on an uphill shot I am hitting to the right I move the scope away from me toward the target.If i am hitting left I bring the scope back to me (do not adjust the windage L/R adjustment of your sight)only adjust the hinge action of the scope.You can also adjust on a down hill shot if you are hitting left on a down hill shot move the scope away from you toward the target on the hinge action of the scope, if to the right then bring the scope toward you on the hinge.
You do not have to shoot a big distance to set your third axis (I do because at my club I can) if you have 20y with a good angle to it then use that but first sight in on the flat and shoot a few ends to get warmed up.


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## speedgoat

this is all good info. back up to the top


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## Christopher67

*I thought 3rd axis had to be done at full draw, i see these bench device 3rd axis items popping up.*


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## mike 66

look at this,video..... hamskea.com


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## devin1

Im not sure about everyone, but I rarely stare at my bubble before my shot. I used to, when practicing my form , but now I am comfortable enough without having to stare at the bubble everytime I shoot. I am sure most people dont need the 3rd axis if you shoot often and practice all yardages. JMO


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## threetoe

Thanks all !

I finally figured out what you all were saying and went into the garage.


BOY was my third axis off.

It's all good now.

THANKS again!!

Bill


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## Pete53

*3rd axis*

Bowhunters if you only shoot out to 30 yards at animals in normal hunting conditions for deer , don`t worry about 3rd axis, i have killed many deer before i knew that you could level a sight.But at distances past 30 yards it does make a difference and yes i am a target archer and a bowhunter.they make a handy tool and is sold by lancaster archery and it does not cost that much .i have been bowhunting before the compound bow was invented by Mr. allen. good luck Pete53


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## threetoe

Hey all.
FYI
I have a bench vise in the garage.
I have a Metal Carpenters square.
I have a torpedo level.

I put the square in the vise and used the level to set the metal square straight up and vertically level.

I put the back side of my bow against the level and found the second axis off.
Fixed that.

I then rotated the bow 45 degrees up with it against the level carpenters square and then 45 degrees down.
I fixed them using the adjustments on the sight.

I then took the bow to a shop and asked them to check 2nd and 3rd.

He came back minutes later and said they were dead on perfect!

WooHoo.

Thanks to all here who help.

Bill


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## MTBOWHUNT3R

shec6135 is correct however for the longer shots like 50 yards or greater leveling the bow will come in to play. also the third axis is great for those up and down hill shots. 

nuts&bolts well done could not have said it better


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## thiessen3.14

I know, this is an old thread, but it's sticky-ed so I feel it's fair game. If one sets the first axis first and establishes that the sight body is plumb (as is the string/riser at draw); then set second axis with the scope bubble; can't the third axis simply be set with a machinist square with the bow at brace? It seems to me that IF the first axis is true and second axis is true, the third axis is simply such that the scope housing is normal to the sight bar. Am I missing something?


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## BBGren

When you hold the bow at full draw the bows riser wants to twist some. How much is dependent on bow design, bow hand placement, the direction and hard you are pulling, etc. Could be a little, could be a lot. Shooting level you compensate for this by moving your sight pin left/right to adjust POI and your bubble stays level with the riser. When you are sighted in the more twist you have at full draw, the further your sight pin will be from the center of your arrow when you line up the arrow and the string looking from behind the bow. So if your bow is twisting when you are at full draw and your sight housing is 90 degrees to that, when you aim up/down your bubble will lie to you and cause you to cant the bow more and more the further away you get from horizontal to keep your bubble centered. This is because the sight is set 90 degrees to your bow riser which is now not pointing exactly at your target (that little twist). You have to adjust the angle of the sight housing to match the twist (if any) that occurs with your bow and shooting technique at full draw when you aim up or down.


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## thiessen3.14

Ya, I see your point. But, how much twist around the vertical axis exists on a bow at full draw? I actually have no idea. Apparently enough to warrant a 3rd axis adjustment, I guess.


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## Ijaw

Hamskea sells an 'easy third axis level' kit for $54.95


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## Tom1953

Third axis is important when shooting long distances, example; 80 yards. The target may be level but you are raising the bow up. I really don't believe any tool will set this axis for you. Any bow with a cableguard even flexible guards will affect how the bow turns in your hand. Some bows have a lot of torque or twist and some minimize this very well. You have to shoot the bow and adjust the third axis thru trial and error. Typically right hand shooters will shoot to the left. So turning the sight towards the shooter will align the level with the bow. As your long shots start to move to the right, your shorter shots will move left. So after adjusting the level, shoot a 20 yard level shot adjust your windage and then shoot 80 yards. You need your bow to shoot down the center at short distances and long distances. Or 20 yards uphill and 20 yards downhill need to shoot the same.


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## Conquest4GT

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Can someone please explain third axis tuning?


I shoot for Gold Tip and have had great talks with manager Tim Gillingham about the Hamskea 3rd Axis level. You will definitely want one of these to level your axis. Essentially you need to.correlate all axis' together to have a properly tuned shot on any incline/decline and maintain level throughout. Choose a level vertically reference line and at full draw +&- 30° value sight through your housing. Preferably w/o a lens for time being. Before this 1st & 2nd axis must be trued up. With the alignment pin threaded in adjust until housing is level and pin is lined up with vertical reference. Reference must be 90° to a level floor. This leveling method will eliminate left/right impacts at long distance and incline/declines.


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## eskimoohunt

nuts&bolts said:


> LiteSpeed1:
> 
> 2ND AXIS
> 
> 2nd axis on your sight is basically making sure the bubble level
> on your sight reads level when the bow is vertical.
> 
> This presumes that your string is vertical when the bow is also vertical.
> You essentially figure a way to hold your bow vertical (use a bow vise),
> and then check to see that your bubble level in the sight is also reading vertical.
> 
> If not, then adjust the bubble level with the 2nd axis adjustment,
> to make the bubble level on your sight read level, when the bow and bowstring are vertical.
> 
> 3RD AXIS
> 
> Ok, so now we understand what 2nd axis is on your sight.
> 
> So, what is 3rd axis?
> 
> Remember your sight ring is on a threaded rod?
> 
> Well, what if the entire sight ring was mounted on a door hinge?
> 
> Yup. What if the entire sight ring could swing like a door?
> You could swing the door towards you or away from you.
> 
> Well, let's say we swing the door towards you 45 degrees.
> The bubble level still reads level, i.e., the threaded rod is still horizontal.
> 
> You know what will happen on a steep uphill shot?
> Even if you aim uphill, and your bow is not tilted left or right,
> the bubble level will lie to you and force you to tilt your bow.
> 
> Try this with a 24-inch level. Hold the level in your hand so that it is still horizontal, but the angle between the level and your arm is 45 degrees, as if you swung a door towards you. Raise your arm towards the ceiling.
> The bubble level will not stay in the middle.
> 
> Adjust the third axis on your sight is the same as adjust the door swing so that it is 90 degrees.
> 
> HOW TO ADJUST 3RD AXIS
> 
> 
> 
> 3rd axis will affect uphill shots (NFAA field rounds) or downhill shots (from a treestand).
> 
> Imagine that your sight ring is a door. If you bump your sight ring into a tree, the sight ring may bend towards you like swinging a door closer to your face. Let's say the sight ring "door" opened towards you 45-degrees. The bubble still reads level when you hold the riser straight up and down.
> 
> Now, hang a weighted string from the ceiling.
> Kneel down on your knees, load an arrow in a safe spot, come to full draw and anchor.
> Line up the weighted string with the left edge of the riser and your limbs.
> 
> Take a look at the bubble.
> The riser and limbs are vertical because you are lined up with the weighted string.
> If the sight ring threaded rod is bent towards you or away from you,
> the bubble will not read level even though you are not canting the bow.
> 
> Adjusting the 3rd axis of a bow restores the sight ring door swing
> back to 90 degrees, perpendicular to the sight frame.
> The best way to check is kneeling down on your knees,
> aiming up at a weighted string hanging from the ceiling.
> 
> If your sight has 3rd axis adjustment, then adjust away.
> 
> If you sight does not have 3rd axis adjustment,
> you will need to use shims to adjust the entire sight or just the sight ring.



Great can you do it on a bow vise and just tip bow 45. Forwards or back words?


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## dwagoner

eskimoohunt said:


> Great can you do it on a bow vise and just tip bow 45. Forwards or back words?


you need to account for riser flex. if you have a bow that torques and you do 3rd axis on a vice it will be off on bow. It wouldnt hurt to square it up on a vice to start and can double check on the bow and adjust accordingly, but on the bow is the way to get it done and make sure its 10)% accurate


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## SierraMtns

Is this a good way to set the 3rd axis?


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## juspassinthru

Tag


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## Alpha Burnt

Bump for a classic


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## redwagon

My question would have to be, does broad-head tuning your bow affect the third axis? If your bow is paper-tuned, and your center-shot is lined up perfectly, and then you broad-head tune your bow which changes these thing would that not affect the alignment of sight to arrow? Maybe i'm wrong in my thinking, and please correct me if I am, but shouldn't your third axis be arrow-to-sight instead of sight-to-riser?


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## mdewitt71

SierraMtns said:


> Is this a good way to set the 3rd axis?


bumping this up as I just found this on a search..... good vid. 
I will try this tonight when I get home.


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## ctownshooter

tagged


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## PoorboyAP

Check out "Easy Axis" by Poor Boy Archery Products.



 I use to set up my scope axes by using a small carpenters level and a makeshift plum bob before I designed "Easy Axis" three axis archery alignment tool. It checks all three sight axes at static position (not drawn) without the need for any addition tools such as a bow vise. There has been major discussions about what is the best method of setting the 3rd axis. Should it be set at full draw or should it be set at static position. Regardless of which method you use, you might want to find a tool that you could carry with you in your shooting stool on the range so just in case your bow gets knocked over so you can verify that the axes are still aligned. Nobody ever gets their bow knocked over. Right?

A note of caution: If you use a bow vise to set up the axes on your scope, be sure that the bow vise was leveled during installation. I stopped in to numerous bow shops when I was out marketing "Easy Axis" and more than 50% of the bow shops that I stopped at never leveled their bow vises. If the bow vise isn't leveled, when you rotate the bow vise to set the 3rd axis, the alignment will be off by however much the bow vise is off.

No matter what you read, you need to use the method you feel gives you the best results. Just remember, the proof of any method is in the size and position of the groups you shoot and the score on your score card.


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## Utbowhunter70

great explanations


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## b_fitnik

Tagged


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## Keith James

Thanks for the info.


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## brtesite

Keith James said:


> Thanks for the info.


check out John dudley video for 3rd axis leveling


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## btmonnat

I use this same simple version and works for me.


Kadob62 said:


> Heres a real simply way to set both the 2nd and 3rd axis. Get youself a quality metal faced carpenters level, simply secure the level ("LEVEL") vertically in a vise. Take you're sight bracket and hold it against the side of the level, now adjust the 2nd axis so it is also level (the bubble in you're sight), this will be done by rotating the sight housing clockwise or counter clockwise. Now holding the sight mounting bracket against the level, piviot the front of the sight upward and downward, you will now adjust the 3rd axis, the sight housing will need to either need to be moved inward or outward to make sure the sight bubble stays level as you piviot the front of the sight up and down. Hope this simple version may be of some help. Good Luck!


Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk


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## jlevasseur

Good Info thanks


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## Fdalebowhunter7

Great info!


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## c407t16

if you're going to do it i suggest watching the antler junkies video on youtube about it first.


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## Downeastbob

Tagged


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## bowhnt07

Awesome information.


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## BBDHeli-m

God threat


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## Whit2292

good info


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## andegreg

great info


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## andegreg

great info


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## Jacques Malan

good thread.


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## PCM

Wow.


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## BC33

I've seen and been told, that you can only set your true 3rd axis at full draw for it to be correct. I know this is an old forum, but any advice there?


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## garythegun

This is really helpful. Thanks Nutsnbolts


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## FISHAWNEGO

thank you!


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## ryanmordente

:thumbs_up thanks


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## BLPrarie

Thank you sir!


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## merlinron

redwagon said:


> My question would have to be, does broad-head tuning your bow affect the third axis? If your bow is paper-tuned, and your center-shot is lined up perfectly, and then you broad-head tune your bow which changes these thing would that not affect the alignment of sight to arrow? Maybe i'm wrong in my thinking, and please correct me if I am, but shouldn't your third axis be arrow-to-sight instead of sight-to-riser?


 if your 3rd axis is set correctly, moving windage or elevation won't change the 3rd axis. explanation of 3rd axis,.... looking straight down at your bow from above the top cam, with your bow mounted so that the string is plumb,.... the 3rd axis crosses the line of flight at a right angle . so what that amounts to is, the threaded rod of your scope or pin must cross the arrow's line of flight at 90 degrees. usually it is assumed that your sight's bar or plate is parallel to the line of flight, so the threaded rod should cross the bar or plate at that right angle.


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## JPritchard2020

Lots of great advice here.


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## Bwade97

Great advice


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## Hunter2OH

Thanks to all who posted in this thread. Just got a sight with 3rd axis adjustment and this helped a lot


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## j_0_h_0

all great advice


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## [email protected]

So I just became aware of a 4th axis.....does anyone tune their 4th axis? Are you as confused as I am that after 30 some years of archery we are still learning things....or at least I am


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## Str8Ripon

Awesome info!


----------



## bdub23

nuts&bolts said:


> *3rd axis adjustment on your sight*
> 
> 
> 
> LiteSpeed1:
> 
> 2ND AXIS
> 
> 2nd axis on your sight is basically making sure the bubble level
> on your sight reads level when the bow is vertical.
> 
> This presumes that your string is vertical when the bow is also vertical.
> You essentially figure a way to hold your bow vertical (use a bow vise),
> and then check to see that your bubble level in the sight is also reading vertical.
> 
> If not, then adjust the bubble level with the 2nd axis adjustment,
> to make the bubble level on your sight read level, when the bow and bowstring are vertical.
> 
> 3RD AXIS
> 
> Ok, so now we understand what 2nd axis is on your sight.
> 
> So, what is 3rd axis?
> 
> Remember your sight ring is on a threaded rod?
> 
> Well, what if the entire sight ring was mounted on a door hinge?
> 
> Yup. What if the entire sight ring could swing like a door?
> You could swing the door towards you or away from you.
> 
> Well, let's say we swing the door towards you 45 degrees.
> The bubble level still reads level, i.e., the threaded rod is still horizontal.
> 
> You know what will happen on a steep uphill shot?
> Even if you aim uphill, and your bow is not tilted left or right,
> the bubble level will lie to you and force you to tilt your bow.
> 
> Try this with a 24-inch level. Hold the level in your hand so that it is still horizontal, but the angle between the level and your arm is 45 degrees, as if you swung a door towards you. Raise your arm towards the ceiling.
> The bubble level will not stay in the middle.
> 
> Adjust the third axis on your sight is the same as adjust the door swing so that it is 90 degrees.
> 
> HOW TO ADJUST 3RD AXIS
> 
> 
> 
> 3rd axis will affect uphill shots (NFAA field rounds) or downhill shots (from a treestand).
> 
> Imagine that your sight ring is a door. If you bump your sight ring into a tree, the sight ring may bend towards you like swinging a door closer to your face. Let's say the sight ring "door" opened towards you 45-degrees. The bubble still reads level when you hold the riser straight up and down.
> 
> Now, hang a weighted string from the ceiling.
> Kneel down on your knees, load an arrow in a safe spot, come to full draw and anchor.
> Line up the weighted string with the left edge of the riser and your limbs.
> 
> Take a look at the bubble.
> The riser and limbs are vertical because you are lined up with the weighted string.
> If the sight ring threaded rod is bent towards you or away from you,
> the bubble will not read level even though you are not canting the bow.
> 
> Adjusting the 3rd axis of a bow restores the sight ring door swing
> back to 90 degrees, perpendicular to the sight frame.
> The best way to check is kneeling down on your knees,
> aiming up at a weighted string hanging from the ceiling.
> 
> If your sight has 3rd axis adjustment, then adjust away.
> 
> If you sight does not have 3rd axis adjustment,
> you will need to use shims to adjust the entire sight or just the sight ring.


Thanks for the helpful information.


----------



## BrierK

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Can someone please explain third axis tuning?


Hamskea just came out with an awesome video series on it. First time I ever fully understood it. Amazingly clear and concise!


----------



## 37Red56

Agree. Hamskea has some good instructional videos.


----------



## Petros1919

nuts&bolts said:


> *3rd axis adjustment on your sight*
> 
> 
> 
> LiteSpeed1:
> 
> 2ND AXIS
> 
> 2nd axis on your sight is basically making sure the bubble level
> on your sight reads level when the bow is vertical.
> 
> This presumes that your string is vertical when the bow is also vertical.
> You essentially figure a way to hold your bow vertical (use a bow vise),
> and then check to see that your bubble level in the sight is also reading vertical.
> 
> If not, then adjust the bubble level with the 2nd axis adjustment,
> to make the bubble level on your sight read level, when the bow and bowstring are vertical.
> 
> 3RD AXIS
> 
> Ok, so now we understand what 2nd axis is on your sight.
> 
> So, what is 3rd axis?
> 
> Remember your sight ring is on a threaded rod?
> 
> Well, what if the entire sight ring was mounted on a door hinge?
> 
> Yup. What if the entire sight ring could swing like a door?
> You could swing the door towards you or away from you.
> 
> Well, let's say we swing the door towards you 45 degrees.
> The bubble level still reads level, i.e., the threaded rod is still horizontal.
> 
> You know what will happen on a steep uphill shot?
> Even if you aim uphill, and your bow is not tilted left or right,
> the bubble level will lie to you and force you to tilt your bow.
> 
> Try this with a 24-inch level. Hold the level in your hand so that it is still horizontal, but the angle between the level and your arm is 45 degrees, as if you swung a door towards you. Raise your arm towards the ceiling.
> The bubble level will not stay in the middle.
> 
> Adjust the third axis on your sight is the same as adjust the door swing so that it is 90 degrees.
> 
> HOW TO ADJUST 3RD AXIS
> 
> 
> 
> 3rd axis will affect uphill shots (NFAA field rounds) or downhill shots (from a treestand).
> 
> Imagine that your sight ring is a door. If you bump your sight ring into a tree, the sight ring may bend towards you like swinging a door closer to your face. Let's say the sight ring "door" opened towards you 45-degrees. The bubble still reads level when you hold the riser straight up and down.
> 
> Now, hang a weighted string from the ceiling.
> Kneel down on your knees, load an arrow in a safe spot, come to full draw and anchor.
> Line up the weighted string with the left edge of the riser and your limbs.
> 
> Take a look at the bubble.
> The riser and limbs are vertical because you are lined up with the weighted string.
> If the sight ring threaded rod is bent towards you or away from you,
> the bubble will not read level even though you are not canting the bow.
> 
> Adjusting the 3rd axis of a bow restores the sight ring door swing
> back to 90 degrees, perpendicular to the sight frame.
> The best way to check is kneeling down on your knees,
> aiming up at a weighted string hanging from the ceiling.
> 
> If your sight has 3rd axis adjustment, then adjust away.
> 
> If you sight does not have 3rd axis adjustment,
> you will need to use shims to adjust the entire sight or just the sight ring.


Thanks for the info


----------



## Petros1919

37Red56 said:


> Agree. Hamskea has some good instructional videos.


Do you have a link?


----------



## 37Red56

You'll see them right on their website: Hamskeaarchery | A Company By Archers For Archers. Videos and written instructions. Can also find some on YouTube.


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## Flyingj

Thanks for all the great info.


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## Mayorgaed49

Hamskea has a great 3rd axis level and great videos on how to set up


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## PandaAl

Inside out precision has a great video on it on YouTube


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## Wyatt Rhen Sage

[email protected] said:


> So I just became aware of a 4th axis.....does anyone tune their 4th axis? Are you as confused as I am that after 30 some years of archery we are still learning things....or at least I am


What is the fourth axis?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 17HendersonJT

Great explanation


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## lamar1111

I had my spot hog set up today the guy had a jig that he attached the sight too with a level.


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## Chappy2243

Great information thanks


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## Copan250

It was a mystery to me until about a week ago lol


----------



## Paul Cataldo

Nuts and bolts, what if bowstring is not parallel with the limb pockets/riser? Do you let string or rider dictate the situation? Which takes precedence? Or should you always be able to adjust cam lean to bring the two together on the same plane?


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## Forsythe

Dang. Good info. I only have 2nd axis adjustability so I’ve never looked into 3rd axis. Interesting stuff.


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## D B

Really great information. Thanks. I'm going to go take a look at my bow sight.


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## H2901

Following this- I can never underestimate how much I never knew about tuning


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## T2Starling

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Can someone please explain third axis tuning?


Third axis tuning is essentially the axis that controls your level when on a slope, up or down. If your third axis is off then when you are shooting up or down hill you will miss left or right. Search up some video from Inside Out Precision on Third Axis tuning, he’s awesome!


----------



## T2Starling

T2Starling said:


> Third axis tuning is essentially the axis that controls your level when on a slope, up or down. If your third axis is off then when you are shooting up or down hill you will miss left or right. Search up some video from Inside Out Precision on Third Axis tuning, he’s awesome!


On YouTube that is.


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## Idaho_archer

Great info on this thread and links on this thread! Thanks all!


----------

