# A hunting arrow that Dr. Ashby would be proud of...



## marty.301 (Feb 16, 2008)

I like


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

Nice, never seen the 9/32" 145 grains before. They are hard to find.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Longbow42 said:


> Nice, never seen the 9/32" 145 grains before. They are hard to find.


I stumbled across that place by accident actually. I bought 3 dozen because I know how hard they are to get. I'll send you a half dozen if you wanna try them bud?


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Longbow42 said:


> Nice, never seen the 9/32" 145 grains before. They are hard to find.



3Rivers has them all the time:

http://www.3riversarchery.com/


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

wicked set up, may look into them when i run out of my current arrows


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just bought a MR5 so that's what I'll be shooting these with! Should bring the heat at 29"/72lbs!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I ordered Nockturnal G nocks and Easton G nocks for practice that I'll try to figure out how to add some weight to. I've got my broadhead ideas narrowed down to a few now. I'm going to look more into the Werewolf 150gr single bevels, possibly the Abowyer Bonehead Lite's in 120gr with 25-35gr adapters and the new Steelforce 2-blade titanium single bevels that will be coming out soon. If anybody else has recommendations in a single bevel two blade in the 145-150gr range let me know.


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## paheadhunter (Apr 12, 2011)

One thing you could do to your g nocks for practice to have them the same weight as your nockturnals is to get some welding rod and cut it to the grains you need and glue them inside the hollow point of the nick. I did that with some x nocks the other year when I was shooting lighted nocks


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeah I'm thinking of something along those lines. I gotta wait till the g nocks come in to see what exactly I can fit inside of them.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Only things I'm waiting to arrive now are the Nockturnal G Nocks I ordered and the shafts. I'm still waiting on some broadhead companies to release some new single bevel ideas... I'm really liking the Werewolf's thus far from what I've read. I'm going to split an order of them shortly to try them out. Here's the specs OT2 estimates out of my MR5 with the VAP 250s. I need an AMO arrow length of 27 5/8" which is 26" carbon to carbon, 1" for the outserts and another 5/8" for the G nocks. Total arrow weight is supposed to be around 540gr.


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

I virtually did the same thing. Gold Tip XT Hunter 75/95 cut to 28" with FOB's and 150 grains of GT rear insert weights for a total arrow weight of 560 grains with 18%+ of FOC. This arrow is what I shoot now as opposed to a 410 grain arrow I use to shoot. Upped my KE slightly, increased my momentum drastically, FOC went from 8% to over 18% and the noise level of my bow dropped drastically. These arrows are more forgiving and more accurate at longer distances. I hope to hunt a Cape Buffalo in 2014 and will use weight tubes to up the total arrow weight to somewhere between 800 - 900 grains and use a single bevel BH for the hunt.


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## brdymakr (Dec 19, 2011)

Aw come on Henro..go ahead and post a pic of that sick rig you built out to go with these...awesome job...btw, rangefinder showed up too so thanks for that.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mudslinger2 said:


> I virtually did the same thing. Gold Tip XT Hunter 75/95 cut to 28" with FOB's and 150 grains of GT rear insert weights for a total arrow weight of 560 grains with 18%+ of FOC. This arrow is what I shoot now as opposed to a 410 grain arrow I use to shoot. Upped my KE slightly, increased my momentum drastically, FOC went from 8% to over 18% and the noise level of my bow dropped drastically. These arrows are more forgiving and more accurate at longer distances. I hope to hunt a Cape Buffalo in 2014 and will use weight tubes to up the total arrow weight to somewhere between 800 - 900 grains and use a single bevel BH for the hunt.


You need a .250 spine! Those arrows aren't even on the chart they're so weak with that setup! I'd be scared shooting them! Disregard that it says MR5 I switched all the equipment out to your specs. You can't just add a ton of head weight to get FOC. You have to have a stiffer shaft as you add more weight. Having proper spine is most critical.










brdymakr said:


> Aw come on Henro..go ahead and post a pic of that sick rig you built out to go with these...awesome job...btw, rangefinder showed up too so thanks for that.


Glad to hear it bud! Ok ok twist my arm lol here it is.


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## DocMort (Sep 24, 2009)

IF they arrow tunes your fine


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

Henro, sorry to tell you that these arrows tune out of my bow. I have shot several different BH's, fixed and mechanical out to 50 yards dead on with my FP's. I am not some rookie doing this just to see what I can shoot. 40+ years and tuning a lot of bows over the past has taught me a lot and some you cannot go by the numbers plugged into a program. I shoot these with the utmost confidence and have not trouble with them.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey man just trying to help. It was advice not tryin to slant you. I've got plenty of experience myself I don't need to brag about it. Was just trying to show you with a visual. I'm sure you already know with a weak spine you lose penetration from the shaft over-flexing as well and wasting energy. Anyway, back on topic.


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

Henro, Ok, I did paper tune and walk back tune these arrows and they tuned perfect without much work. All the broadheads I have shot shoot with my field points so this is what I went with. I know I am pushing the envelope, but they work.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Possibly considering externally footing my shafts a couple inches to protect the half-out insert/outsert. Anybody know what aluminum shaft I'd need to fit over the VAP 250's 0.245 OD?


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## kevinfoerster (Jul 10, 2009)

what speeds are you goign to get.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

Shoot what you want to, but Ashby hunts african game like cape buff, wilderbeast and such with trad equipment. What's in NJ requireing such FOC? You using a trad-bow?


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## brdymakr (Dec 19, 2011)

PM sent on this topic Henro...thanks in advance for your reply.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Just made up some new hunting arrows last night myself..using the wonderful pin wheel software!!!

Ht2 300s 30" long 40gn added weight behind insert with 100gn tip... totalling 461 gn 274fps 15% foc 73/ke out of my new 2012 evo 29.5" draw 60lbs..


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

red44 said:


> Shoot what you want to, but Ashby hunts african game like cape buff, wilderbeast and such with trad equipment. What's in NJ requireing such FOC? You using a trad-bow?


I am shooting what I WANT to shoot. That's why this is my build thread. You can make your own if you want.


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## TheKingofKings (Sep 25, 2006)

The MR5 brings the heat for sure....I know first hand what they are capable of at 351grains on 29/70.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

henro said:


> I am shooting what I WANT to shoot. That's why this is my build thread. You can make your own if you want.


Some guys don't get it. Don't let it bother you. I grew up in Jersey wheere you from?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Some guys don't get it. Don't let it bother you. I grew up in Jersey wheere you from?


I live in Hackettstown, its NW where the M&M's factory is.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

I'm from Burlington Co. My lives in Hackettstown though. Nice area.


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## ManOfKnight (Mar 5, 2009)

Love your bow...and what I believe your arrows will look like.

I have much the same configuration of arrow as you...except I am using HT-1s (a lot like a VAP) and an 85gr in/outsert. I SHOULD go 125gr head...but I like my Grim Reapers too much.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks. I shot through the chrono last night and I'm a little off on speed somewhere by 6-7fps. 334fps @ 70.0lbs with a 362.7gr arrow with 1/4" G5 Meta(7.7gr) and a loop. I have ATA, BH and timing holes spot on but I didn't have time to check centershot yet or measure actual DL. Gonna check over everything else when I have some more time soon.


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## lovetohunt93 (Aug 3, 2010)

Man that is gonna be a heck of an arrow setup. 

I was thinking about building something similar for my Z7x, but my FMJ 340s are to weak to properly do it. Plus it will be hard to get the FOC up there with the heavy FMJ shafts.

You arrows are gonna be sweet, gonna go through deer no matter what kind of bone you may or may not hit!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

lovetohunt93 said:


> Man that is gonna be a heck of an arrow setup.
> 
> I was thinking about building something similar for my Z7x, but my FMJ 340s are to weak to properly do it. Plus it will be hard to get the FOC up there with the heavy FMJ shafts.
> 
> You arrows are gonna be sweet, gonna go through deer no matter what kind of bone you may or may not hit!


That's why I sold my FMJ setup I was using last couple years.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Brought the bow into my Mathews dealer and tested it on his chrono after retuning and hit 299fps at 72.6lbs maxed with a 501.5gr arrow. I can live with those numbers... Turns out my brand new chrono at my house I just bought(ProChrono Pal) is off by about 9fps compared to the same one at the shop. Going to send mine back to be re-calibrated.

I also just got notifications the shafts and Nockturnals are inbound. I split a 6 pack of Werewolf broadheads with Whitey375, who is going to include them in his broadhead comparison test this year. Everything else is in hand and I can't wait to build these arrows! The new bow is ready to be setup and tuned with them! 

I'm still going to look into the what Steelforce and VPA come out with, and also the Red Feather Archery Razorhawk 150's. They're available in 100, 125 and 150gr. 








I found them on their site but without any specs so I emailed them and got this response quickly:

"Thanks for the note on the contact form regarding the Razorhawk 150's. The broadheads are all steel. There ferrule is carbon steel with a black zinc finish and the blades are 17-7 Stainless steel, heat treated to 49-50 Rockwell hardness and finished with a black oxide finish to dull the shine. They are single bevel, right wing beveled broadheads that are just a tad under 1 1/4" wide. The blank stock is 1 1/4", but in the sharpening process we lose about .05". The steel for the blades are .050 inches thick, which is considerably thicker than most heads which are .035 - .040. We do that to maintain strength in the head.

If you have any more questions please feel free to shoot me an e-mail at this address. Thanks again for the note. Take care,

Stan Mercer
Red Feather Archery"


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

henro said:


> Possibly considering externally footing my shafts a couple inches to protect the half-out insert/outsert. Anybody know what aluminum shaft I'd need to fit over the VAP 250's 0.245 OD?


Depending how long you want to foot the arrow our VPA Carbon Collars may work for you. I don't have the in my webstore but you can by them through our dealer Advantage Archery's website advantage-archery.com. Here's a pic from their webstore.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I actually changed my mind on the footing when I remembered that the inserts are tapered so it won't work. I'm just going to try them as is when they come in. Hoping the stainless steel inserts are tougher. From everything I've been reading it looks like they should be.



I was browsing the Victory website today and saw they have their new 2012 catalog on there. When reading through it I saw the new VAP's this year have an available ICE coating they just released. I asked lkmn, who I purchased them from on here, if mine will have the ICE coating and was told they will. Here's what he had to say about it:

"Yes they will have the ice coating! It is a very thin coating that gives the arrowmore of a finished look like say a beman versus a dull carbon finish. I was told this coating costs like $1,000/gal but is very durable and the gal does alot of shafts. They claim greater penetration, increased speed, less affected by wind, 60% less pulling effort, dry and odor free, tough long lasting finish and never needs reapplication. Comes only on the V1 and V3 series."

Looks interesting...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

rayzor43 can you tell me what the ferrule diameter is on the VPA Small Game Thumper 150gr head is?


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## Guardian Shoote (Jan 11, 2007)

Henro,
like your thread.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Guardian Shoote said:


> Henro,
> like your thread.


Thanks! I just hope I don't disappoint in the end... LOL doubt it!


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

ttt, my mind is crunching numbers now like crazy! I appreciate your thread Henro and I will tag along in building a good F.O.C. arrow out of my EVO. You have helped me in the PM's and I am actually understanding much more about my setup then ever before. I too am waiting on the VAP .250s. Let us know which broadhead you decide! BTW, South Jersey here, Pittsgrove.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Oh nice I'm North NJ in Hackettstown.


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## robinmatt (Mar 18, 2010)

rayzor43 said:


> Depending how long you want to foot the arrow our VPA Carbon Collars may work for you. I don't have the in my webstore but you can by them through our dealer Advantage Archery's website advantage-archery.com. Here's a pic from their webstore.


Do those footing come in different diameters? I use beman ics and might be interested.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Shafts just came in but they sent the wrong inserts... Gotta wait till Monday to see what they're gonna do about it. The ICE coating ends about 6" short of the nock end which I'm guessing is to aid fletching. The coating has a smooth slick surface to it. I was happy to see that Nockturnal G nocks only weigh 12.3gr so FOC will be even higher than projected!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)




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## lovetohunt93 (Aug 3, 2010)

Im liking them wraps!


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Werewolves should be on the way tomorrow!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Whitey375 said:


> Werewolves should be on the way tomorrow!


Sweet!




Realized I needed a longer shaft by an inch today. Had a mental lapse and didn't realize the tapered shaft would be resting on the QAD so I needed an inch more clearance. The lower weight of the nocks added to the 1" longer shaft weakened the spine match a bit off the green at 72.6lbs max on OT2. I'll have to see how they tune with broadheads once they come in to see if they work. OT2 shows the poundage needs to be at 66.5lbs max to be in the green. 









One thing to also note is that with the short brace height of the bow, the FFP-360s need to be fletched very far back to clear the QAD HDX at rest. This pic is shows how far. The FFP-360s do fletch very easily and hold a solid helical though.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

pretty sick set up


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Henro., I like the arrow. should a be a killer. Could you do me a favor? I'm building a Ashby arrow also but went a different route. Could run my arrow thru your program? I went w/ GT Kinetic Hunter 200's. 29" shaft w/ 115 gr insert 125 gr BH. On the back I have wraps,blazers and pin nocks(15 gr total). I haven't shot the arrow yet as I'm waiting for my70lb 29" LH Insanity to come in yet. I would appreciate it. Thanks from a transplanted Jersey guy. LOL


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Henro., I like the arrow. should a be a killer. Could you do me a favor? I'm building a Ashby arrow also but went a different route. Could run my arrow thru your program? I went w/ GT Kinetic Hunter 200's. 29" shaft w/ 115 gr insert 125 gr BH. On the back I have wraps,blazers and pin nocks(15 gr total). I haven't shot the arrow yet as I'm waiting for my70lb 29" LH Insanity to come in yet. I would appreciate it. Thanks from a transplanted Jersey guy. LOL


I can later this weekend. I'm workin all day today. I'm thinking you'll need more head weight though with the .200 spine to soften it up enough.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Gold tip said I shouldn't go over 250 gr.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Guess I spoke to soon about the vanes being easy to fletch... The clamp for my Bitzenburger is getting stuck to the vane on the bottom side every time and rips the vane off when pulling the clamp away. I've cleaned the clamp after every vane and made sure I applied the glue very accurately only to the base and it still happens. Not sure what to do. I also am not getting good contact with the shaft at the tail end of the vane. My clamp base can't apply pressure all the way to the back of the vane because I need to mount them so far back. I'm going to order another clamp that the blade runs all the way to the end to see if this helps. I found it on Cabelas and I hope what they're selling matches the pic and not what I have now. I'm not sure why I'm getting glue on the bottom side of the vane though... I'm using the Flex Fletch Zing! HD Superglue and Fletching Primer. Any ideas?

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about and the clamp I'm going to order.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After talking with someone I tried using a pretty light application of glue and it seemed to help. The back side did stick a bit to the clamp but came off. We'll see how this goes.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

ttt


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Werewolfs came in today... Wow are they sharp! Whitey375 said originally they came in but weren't that sharp. We both missed it on their website that they don't come completely sharpened out of the box so the user can fine tune them to their liking. Well he asked if I wanted him to strop them for me and I said sure. Man did he do a good job! These heads look awesome! Still wanna check out others like I've mentioned but these look great. They're some of the most affordable too at $90 for 6 with an unconditional lifetime warranty.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I've come to find out the 5" BH will not clear a ffp-360 mounted 1/4" off the shaft end at rest. Should tune fine though at full draw as it only touches the first 1/8" at rest and the launcher will raise up at full draw.

The launcher at rest which will clear the vane at full draw when it locks up(qad is not tuned yet and I might change the launcher):


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Henro I just ordered the Quest PowerPunch Q1 Elite tapered shafts that utilize a 29gr standard size brass insert while slimming down to a F nock. You can even get them in .275. I am looking at the werewolves but also have looked into the Abowyer Bone head lites. They take glue in screw inserts but what I like is that you have the option of insert materials; titanium, steel or aluminum and with different weight options to test out. The new RFA's look good as well. I am really hoping for a better wound channel then traditionl 2 blades leave. I am not a fan of the sliver cuts and minimal blood trails. I shoot big expandibles typically but am gravitating more toward fixed again because I like the versatility of a fixed blade when hunting various game. I can use a 2" 3 blade whitetail special for a whitetail but not an Elk...so..I don't want to retune and swap heads for every animal I hunt. That is why I also was intrigued by F.O.C. and the single bevel 2 blades which I hope show more trauma. Your thread has been a favorite of mine to pop into and I hope you keep it going. Thanks again for being informitive and sharing your results. Also, what are your thoughts on the Helix broadhead from Strickland Archery?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Henro I just ordered the Quest PowerPunch Q1 Elite tapered shafts that utilize a 29gr standard size brass insert while slimming down to a F nock. You can even get them in .275. I am looking at the werewolves but also have looked into the Abowyer Bone head lites. They take glue in screw inserts but what I like is that you have the option of insert materials; titanium, steel or aluminum and with different weight options to test out. The new RFA's look good as well. I am really hoping for a better wound channel then traditionl 2 blades leave. I am not a fan of the sliver cuts and minimal blood trails. I shoot big expandibles typically but am gravitating more toward fixed again because I like the versatility of a fixed blade when hunting various game. I can use a 2" 3 blade whitetail special for a whitetail but not an Elk...so..I don't want to retune and swap heads for every animal I hunt. That is why I also was intrigued by F.O.C. and the single bevel 2 blades which I hope show more trauma. Your thread has been a favorite of mine to pop into and I hope you keep it going. Thanks again for being informitive and sharing your results. Also, what are your thoughts on the Helix broadhead from Strickland Archery?


I listed the info on the heads you mentioned already in this thread. The Helix doesn't impress me for any reason.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry I must have overlooked it initially. Anyhow,it would be great if you could post a video or review comparing the vaps to your former fmj's as far as penetration and flight.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Sold my FMJ's so I can't. They would not have been spined right for this bow anyway.


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## lovetohunt93 (Aug 3, 2010)

Man them Werewolfs look sick!

Oh and got enough pins on that Spot Hogg? LOL, just kidding.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Inserts came in today and their weight came in at 89.5gr. Installed them with the goat tuff high impact insert glue. After eyeing up the arrow on the rest the bow shot a bullet hole on paper at 5yds with no adjustment at 72.6lbs. Total arrow weight with the Werewolf head and Nockturnal nock is just about 549gr. AMO measured FOC is 20.71%. Won't have chrono numbers until the chrono comes back from Competition Electronics which we just sent them this week. I have a buzz coming from the top cam somewhere I noticed when shooting outside today. Only change we made was replacing the bad cable with the new one. When I have more time I'll check it on the press. The mod bolts were all tight. When that's all and I get around to fletching all the arrows I'll walk-back and group tune it with broadheads. All 3 heads did spin test true.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

lovetohunt93 said:


> Man them Werewolfs look sick!
> 
> Oh and got enough pins on that Spot Hogg? LOL, just kidding.


Those pins all get used target shooting. Makes those longer shots in the woods feel that much easier.


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## lovetohunt93 (Aug 3, 2010)

henro said:


> Those pins all get used target shooting. Makes those longer shots in the woods feel that much easier.


Yeah I figured that's what you were using them all for. I wouldnt mind a 7 pin sight for those same reasons but without some contact lenses or I couldnt do it cause I cant shoot with my glasses on. I had to go from .010 5 pin Spot Hogg to a 3 pin at .019. Oh well, Im still shooting good everything is just blurry. 

And your total arrow weight and numbers are great! It is what I like to call a perfect arrow!


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

ttt


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

This is a sweet setup. I can't wait to see your victims photos down the line!!!


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Looking good boss!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

My dealer for Victory on here is lkmn and I have him contacting them on Monday because the inserts don't meet up flush with the shafts as you can see in the pic. The part of the insert that tapers down to meet the shaft is actually thinner diameter than the shaft. At $40/dozen for the inserts and the fact that this is counterproductive to the whole tapered insert idea I think they should fit perfectly flush. 

This is what he told me about them: "I will have to ask Victory, but I don't know that some one told you correctly. The ss are the same design as the aluminums just diff material obviously! Each spine arrow obviously has a different OD size due to number of wraps of carbon it takes to make that spine. I believe the inserts were made for a true fit on probably the 350 and 400 spines which are the closest in od size and prob the most popular. the 250 spines od is .013 larger than the 350 which I am sure is what you are seeing. Otherwise they would need to make a flush insert for every od size.

This is just my thoughts nothing from victory but I will check in with them on Monday and let you know. Unfortunately the same is tru for standard arrows. if you take a 250 spine and a 500 spine with a .245 id the inserts will not fit both as far as flush od size. This same thing used to drive me nuts as well!

I will ask and get an answer!"

If they're going to make these specialized inserts and charge so much for them then they should all fit flush IMO. If they have to make them spine specific I think they should IMO.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

I thought the same thing when looking at the pic. How did the spin on a roller for you? I had LAS pull some v1's and roll them for me and they were not tight at all. The guys there told me their arrow is phenomenal but the components needed work. This was when I shot them with aluminum inserts. I am wondering if they are better with the ss inserts. Also have you squared the ss inserts. If so what tool worked well on the stainless.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> I thought the same thing when looking at the pic. How did the spin on a roller for you? I had LAS pull some v1's and roll them for me and they were not tight at all. The guys there told me their arrow is phenomenal but the components needed work. This was when I shot them with aluminum inserts. I am wondering if they are better with the ss inserts. Also have you squared the ss inserts. If so what tool worked well on the stainless.


They spun true on the rollers no issue there.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I think I had a couple too many beers the other day when I spun test the broadheads. I think I was paying more attention to the inserts and not the heads and spun them too fast. I took some video and pics of the heads today spinning. Now this is my first time playing with single bevels but shouldn't the tip be centered on the head? None of them are. Two of the heads are not even mounted straight which I think is an issue with the ferrules. I've never shot these heads, this is how they came out of the package. I'm going to call Werewolf on Monday and see what they have to say. Sorry if the vid quality sucks, I took them with my phone.
Broadhead 1

Broadhead 2









Broadhead 3(the worst one)


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

Don't think that you will get SB heads to spin perfectly as they don't come to a perfect point. Spinning them should tell you if they are straight. Also, how are they shooting? You should put a Silver Flame XL on them. That will put one heck of a hole and give you great flight and penetration.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I haven't shot them yet, I'm not finished tuning my bow yet.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Just keeping track of your arrow. Looks good. I'm sure you'll get it figured out. The VAP inserts seem to be a PIA for everybody. Otherwise it looks good. BTW You stated you weren't impressed w/ the Helix BH. I bought some recently and in your hand they look well built and shoot OK. They should be real killers. I haven't tried them on deer or elk yet but I have to finish my own Ashby arrow 1st plus I'm still waiting for my Insanity. Thanks for the help earlier.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I really want to see what Steelforce comes out with and hopefully VPA as well. I'm probably going to order some 120gr Abowyer Bonehead Lites with 35gr titanium adapters to try as well.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

I am glad to hear you are trying the Abowyers. I will look forward to a review on those. If I am not mistaken the RFA Razorhawks are already shipping.


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## Smoknnca (Sep 13, 2011)

lol i too have some vaps in the works i will post all the specs when i get all of my components in. they will be beasts with the 5/16 ss insert at 110 grains. however, i will be using the 100 grain shuttle t, my only deviation from ashby"s recommendaions. mine are set up for elk so they should be fine.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Holy crap, I just tried to spin up those Werewolf heads on ALL 24 of my Maxima 450's and they didn't spin true on any of them. Total weak sauce. I'm going to try messing with the bolts to see if that cleans up the spin.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Whitey375 said:


> Holy crap, I just tried to spin up those Werewolf heads on ALL 24 of my Maxima 450's and they didn't spin true on any of them. Total weak sauce. I'm going to try messing with the bolts to see if that cleans up the spin.


Ok, so I got one of them to spin correctly, one bolt head was full of something that I couldn't dig out, and the other I couldn't get to correct.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeah I'm almost ready to write off these Werewolf's...


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm going to shoot them here in a bit, see if they shoot better than they spin.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Whitey375 said:


> I'm going to shoot them here in a bit, see if they shoot better than they spin.


How'd they do?


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## AppleOnMyHead (Nov 22, 2009)

henro said:


> Thanks. I shot through the chrono last night and I'm a little off on speed somewhere by 6-7fps. 334fps @ 70.0lbs with a 362.7gr arrow with 1/4" G5 Meta(7.7gr) and a loop. I have ATA, BH and timing holes spot on but I didn't have time to check centershot yet or measure actual DL. Gonna check over everything else when I have some more time soon.


Was that with a 150gr BH? Dam that is smokin.

My concern would be accuracy. At that speed and a 150gr head @ 70lbs I would think the spine is weak. But what do I know.......


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l590/Whitey375/1052328050_photobucket_149519_.jpg

This was at 30 yards. Bow has not been broadhead tuned.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

AppleOnMyHead said:


> Was that with a 150gr BH? Dam that is smokin.
> 
> My concern would be accuracy. At that speed and a 150gr head @ 70lbs I would think the spine is weak. But what do I know.......


It says right in my post it was a 362.7gr arrow?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Whitey375 said:


> http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l590/Whitey375/1052328050_photobucket_149519_.jpg
> 
> This was at 30 yards. Bow has not been broadhead tuned.


On to the next one... Looks like that's one checked off the list.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

That's 3 field points and three broadheads. I've shot the bow probably 25-30 times, including those 6. Plus it's windy and generally crappy outside.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Whitey375 said:


> That's 3 field points and three broadheads. I've shot the bow probably 25-30 times, including those 6. Plus it's windy and generally crappy outside.


I guess post up again when you get a better day to shoot. This was my broadhead groups last year with my old arrow build at 40yds. I want to build something that can do the same. Those are G5 Montecs marked B grouped with field points.


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## brdymakr (Dec 19, 2011)

henro said:


> On to the next one... Looks like that's one checked off the list.


Bummer pal. Hang in there and keep searching...if anyone can come up with the right combination, it's you.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

*Here is the new RFA Razorhawk*

The one thing that did not look too good was the screw being raised so high above the ferrule. However, I believe I heard the guy in another forum saying that is the prototype picture and the ones shipping right now have more suitable hardware. What I do like is that the 150gr is 1-1/4" I believe. That would make for a nice sized L shape gash!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeah they're probably one I'll try out too. I posted that pic on the last page too.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry bud, I haven't been going back and looking I just keep up with the latter end of the discussion and post accordingly. I don't mean to repost stuff.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

So go back and read the whole thread?


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

are you in a bad mood tonight or what bro???


henro said:


> So go back and read the whole thread?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Not at all I just don't see why he hasn't read it?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

An update from Steelforce after I emailed them today:
"We expect the final prototypes to be done this week, and will be launching them in conjunction with the additions to the website.
Blake"


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

sweet


henro said:


> An update from Steelforce after I emailed them today:
> "We expect the final prototypes to be done this week, and will be launching them in conjunction with the additions to the website.
> Blake"


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I also emailed VPA again and was told they're testing a 325gr dangerous game model single bevel now which should be ready in 2 to 3 weeks. I also asked if they would have other weight options and they said they probably would this was just the first they tested.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After emailing me back today I called and spoke with Jayson Bentcik from Victory Archery today about the insert issue. He told me they've made a change to a new SS insert that will mount flush to the 250 spine shafts. He's going to exchange the inserts I have now with the new design. I told him that I already glued up half of them with the Goat Tuff Impact glue which is a PITA to remove and he said to just send back the shafts and he'll replace them as well! I'm very happy with their customer service andI'm going to recommend them to all my friends.:thumbs_up


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Hey Henro I have been supportive and respectful all I ask is that same respect in return.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful sorry if I came off like that. I just wanted you to go back and see what was posted before. It seemed like everything you mentioned I had said so I figured we were on the same mind track and you might wanna see some things I had found.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Third shift at the prison has me a bit disorientated this past few. I actually have read it before but like I said I am a bit delirious. I will have to review it again and get caught up again.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

So I was shooting all of those heads today at the same time, what a joke. I shot my fp's they hit dead center, shot one WW, cut fletches, shot the next one, literally 2' high left, shot another right in, next 3" right, next one 8" low right, last one dove a foot low. I can shoot better than that with Wal-Mart heads.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

I will say this, at least, they said they'll refund me immediately.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Getting closer! http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1723801&p=1063694130#post1063694130


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Spoke with Jayson Bentcik from Victory today and should have my replacement shafts and inserts today or tomorrow. Still can't shoot them to test the spine until my replacement strings come from Pro-Line. 

I did ask Jayson if they have any thoughts on building a 200 spine and he said no. I briefly told him about my setup and how OT2 was saying they will be slightly(.270) weak with my specs and how I want to build them. He mentioned he thought the program was very accurate when it comes to the standard spine stiffnesses from say 500-300 but that it was a little over critical when it gets to the very stiff shafts like the 250. His thought was that they have been having great results from customers already shooting water buffalo with them with high head weight and that they also use the VAP250 for their crossbow bolts and it's seems stiffer than the program would indicate. 

I will have to wait a little to find out as I still don't have my new strings yet and I'm waiting on Steelforce to make their new Titanium heads available for sale. I'll be able to at least bare shaft tune them once I get the components back and the strings but the heads will be a few weeks so broadhead tuning will have to wait longer.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Also wanted to share that my friend(boone hunter) had Abowyer custom grind down some heads(I think bone-heads) for him to 120gr and added 35gr titanium inserts. They look awesome. They're 2"x1/16" and wicked sharp. These are pictured on his VAP300 shafts with 5/16" SS inserts. He's sending them back to have them mounted on the inserts by them as he couldn't get them squared properly. I may try these if I can shoot that much head weight. Have to wait to try them.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Meant to type they're 2"x1-1/16".


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## doegirl (Sep 22, 2004)

Hey Henro I've made an "Ashby Appoved" setup before. Not the easiest thing to accomplish.
I don't know how purist you wanna get, but 563 grains won't cut it. The minimum according to the good dentist Ashby is 650grains. Another thing is the length to width ratio on the broadheads. Single bevel, coc with a ratio closer to 3:1 is what you should shoot for. Here's a link to his updated tests:
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

doegirl said:


> Hey Henro I've made an "Ashby Appoved" setup before. Not the easiest thing to accomplish.
> I don't know how purist you wanna get, but 563 grains won't cut it. The minimum according to the good dentist Ashby is 650grains. Another thing is the length to width ratio on the broadheads. Single bevel, coc with a ratio closer to 3:1 is what you should shoot for. Here's a link to his updated tests:
> http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx


Yeah this build isn't exactly to his specs as I'm not hunting cape buffalo but I'm trying to apply as much of his ideas as possible which is what his main goal was.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Still waiting on my replacement strings from ProLine but inserts and shafts came in today from Victory so I went out to do some bare shaft tuning. With the 145gr practice heads I got some good grouping out to 20 yards. Next step will be broadhead group tuning. Just have to wait for Steelforce to release their heads for sale. I might have Abowyer custom grind me something as well. VPA will hopefully show some new offerings soon too.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Did some more bare shaft testing today at 20 and 30 yards with good results. Thought I was getting some sign of weak bare shafting but realized I had 1 shaft that was giving false readings. I inspected it for damage and flexed it with no signs of damage so I guess it was a bad arrow out of the bunch. Everything else gave good grouping. I'll keep that one aside just for squirrels or for a finishing shot. Once I order up some broadheads I'll be ready for some final spine testing.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

when you were bh shopping did you look at german kenetic xls?


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

We are bringing out a single bevel soon. Heavy models at first then lighter. Not sure if we will get them down to 150 though. We are going to try. (That weight seems to work best for me too)


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> when you were bh shopping did you look at german kenetic xls?


Yes I've looked at the Silverflames. The reviews are all great but I really want to try use a single bevel head. If I do try them it will be a standard version as their mechanical advantage is better.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

rayzor43 said:


> We are bringing out a single bevel soon. Heavy models at first then lighter. Not sure if we will get them down to 150 though. We are going to try. (That weight seems to work best for me too)


Thanks yes I've emailed you a couple times, just hoping you have something weight-wise I can use.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

can you explain what mechanical advantage the vstandars have??? thicker blades and lesss steep blade angle??


henro said:


> Yes I've looked at the Silverflames. The reviews are all great but I really want to try use a single bevel head. If I do try them it will be a standard version as their mechanical advantage is better.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> can you explain what mechanical advantage the vstandars have??? thicker blades and lesss steep blade angle??


Check out the Ashby reports its got a complete explanation about it. Lots of other good info too.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After shooting some 150gr Muzzy Cross Kills I had picked up(only head at the shop in this weight range) and having them group right with my field points I was happy to see my VAP250's are spined correctly! Today I ordered 2 packs of the Steelforce 145gr Titanium Single Bevels. Whitey375 had gotten some the other day and sent me some pics. He said they are "stupid sharp"! I cannot wait to get my hands on these bad boys!


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

They look sick!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

For anyone that wants to order them, I had to call Steelforce and order them over the phone. Their ecommerce site is not setup and ready yet but the heads are available to order.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

TheKingofKings said:


> The MR5 brings the heat for sure....I know first hand what they are capable of at 351grains on 29/70.


Nodout about that! I had the monster 6 & xlr8 and they most certainly bring the HEAT.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Awesome build! Im doing my own build vap's 300 43gr inserts blazer vanes rage extreme but for now rage turkeys out of an 86lb omen.the vap's are out penetrating my fmj 300 by .75" in the big green targets.speed for the vap's and rage is 376fps and the fmj is 331fps.should be lethal on the fl white tails.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

0nepin said:


> Awesome build! Im doing my own build vap's 300 43gr inserts blazer vanes rage extreme but for now rage turkeys out of an 86lb omen.the vap's are out penetrating my fmj 300 by .75" in the big green targets.speed for the vap's and rage is 376fps and the fmj is 331fps.should be lethal on the fl white tails.


Yeah I'm not building the VAP's in respect to speed. I want their lightweight so I can load up the front with more head weight and higher acheivable FOC at the same total mass weight and finished spine as the FMJ's I was shooting before.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I remeasured a finished arrow for hunting with a 145gr field point and Nockturnal(12.3gr) installed. With the wrap(3.1gr) and FFP-360s(7.7gr) the FOC still calculates out to 24.56%!!! This is with an arrow that is 27" material length. With a broadhead it will be even slightly higher as they're longer and I'll find out when they come in! My MR5 shoots them at 280fps at 70.1lbs so that makes 94.73KE and .676MO! These things could probably shoot through deer lengthwise!


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sounds good Henro! It will be exciting to see the pics of the final setup and its prey! You are very knowledgable when it comes to this arrow build and I hope all that hard work and time you have put in turns out the way you wanted and then some. Good luck with it.


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

henro said:


> I remeasured a finished arrow for hunting with a 145gr field point and Nockturnal(12.3gr) installed. With the wrap(3.1gr) and FFP-360s(7.7gr) the FOC still calculates out to 24.56%!!! This is with an arrow that is 27" material length. With a broadhead it will be even slightly higher as they're longer and I'll find out when they come in! My MR5 shoots them at 280fps at 70.1lbs so that makes 94.73KE and .676MO! These things could probably shoot through deer lengthwise!


You are probably right. I shot through a big bodied buck last year lengthwise. The shaft was tipped with a Spitfire. You should have seen the hole. It was during the rut across from my house. I watched him all morning but could not get him to come to me. Little did I know he was with some does that I could not see. I got down from my stand to walk back and as I turned the corner around some trees, there he was looking at me about 30 yds away. Nocked an arrow and shot him between the shoulder blades. Arrow came out his ham. He only made it about 50 yds before he took out the neighbors fence trying to jump it.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Sounds good Henro! It will be exciting to see the pics of the final setup and its prey! You are very knowledgable when it comes to this arrow build and I hope all that hard work and time you have put in turns out the way you wanted and then some. Good luck with it.


Thanks!



Longbow42 said:


> You are probably right. I shot through a big bodied buck last year lengthwise. The shaft was tipped with a Spitfire. You should have seen the hole. It was during the rut across from my house. I watched him all morning but could not get him to come to me. Little did I know he was with some does that I could not see. I got down from my stand to walk back and as I turned the corner around some trees, there he was looking at me about 30 yds away. Nocked an arrow and shot him between the shoulder blades. Arrow came out his ham. He only made it about 50 yds before he took out the neighbors fence trying to jump it.


Cool story! I definitely don't plan on taking that shot but that's a cool story! Can't wait to see what a single bevel head will do on the business end of this shaft!


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Henro You've got plenty of KE and MO. It's not for every body but w/ your set up I think you'll have no problem shooting thru a deer lengthwise.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Henro You've got plenty of KE and MO. It's not for every body but w/ your set up I think you'll have no problem shooting thru a deer lengthwise.


Lol I'm not going to try to find out.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

henro said:


> Lol I'm not going to try to find out.


If you happen to find out by mistake please take some pictures, that would definitely be a sight to see!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> If you happen to find out by mistake please take some pictures, that would definitely be a sight to see!


I'll post pics of anything/everything I do shoot this year with this setup I assure you.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ok so here's a little background info that got me started on building this setup after I read the Ashby reports. Before I hunted with my Monster's, my hunting rig was a Mathews Z7 29"@72lbs shooting a 556gr .300 FMJ's @ 259fps. The kinetic energy from this was 82.9 and momentum was .639. Now every deer I ever shot with it(Rage 2-blades with 13% FOC) did die. But on one particular deer I shot with it 2 years ago, the results were pretty surprising to me. 

A 1.5 year old doe came in to my set at 20-25 yards and I took the shot with her stopped broadside. Now keep in mind this was no giant monster buck, the deer was probably only 60-70lbs dressed. When I released the arrow and saw the impact I heard a huge crack and the deer nose dived and plowed on her front feet and crashed only 20 yards away. 

I was confused at the noise I heard seeing the size of the deer and how close it was. When I got down and walked up to it I saw the arrow lodged in the deer still. Surely we'd all expect to have a complete pass through with this setup right? The shot went right through it's heart but smacked into the off shoulder and the broadhead was lodged into. I was shocked this "log of an arrow" didn't blow right through the shoulder of this small doe but the proof was laying there right in front of me. 

Entrance:








No exit:









After seeing this happen I started to wonder if there really is any magical number of kinetic energy/momentum that you can just guarantee a pass through every time. I really think there isn't with the speeds and energy bows put out compared to high-powered rifles. 

These reasons are why I'm trying to build a setup that has the most penetration potential I can get and still be in the 260-280fps range. When any one of the shooter bucks I watch all year on trail cams walks in I want all the advantages I can on my side. If that small doe shoulder could stop that arrow that one time, anything can happen.


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## blurredvision (Jul 27, 2007)

Just stumbled on to this thread this morning. Great stuff. As fate would have it I am just starting to try and build an ashby style hunting arrow. Keep the great info coming. Has anyone heard of or tried arrows made by arrow dynamics ? They have a parallel to taper design


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Heard good things about them as well.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

*I have and I also own them!!!*

My first group with them! Stinger PTP Big Game .275 spine 10gpi 30gr brass insert FFP 360 vanes with ArroWraps Grim Reaper wraps. This is my Whitetail arrow with good f.o.c. and allows me to shoot 100gr/125gr without being to stiff. The Nocturnal G nocks will be on them soon! 

By the way Henro, have you ceased your desire to shoot big mechanical heads? I understand the purpose of the single bevel traditional style broadhead in accordance with an Ashby build but was curious if this one experience or others have caused you to pursue only fixed heads.


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

blurredvision said:


> Just stumbled on to this thread this morning. Great stuff. As fate would have it I am just starting to try and build an ashby style hunting arrow. Keep the great info coming. Has anyone heard of or tried arrows made by arrow dynamics ? They have a parallel to taper design


Quest Products sells that arrow but call it the Powerpunch. It is a great shaft and Quest sorts them to very tight tolerances.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

henro said:


> Ok so here's a little background info that got me started on building this setup after I read the Ashby reports. Before I hunted with my Monster's, my hunting rig was a Mathews Z7 29"@72lbs shooting a 556gr .300 FMJ's @ 259fps. The kinetic energy from this was 82.9 and momentum was .639. Now every deer I ever shot with it(Rage 2-blades with 13% FOC) did die. But on one particular deer I shot with it 2 years ago, the results were pretty surprising to me.
> 
> A 1.5 year old doe came in to my set at 20-25 yards and I took the shot with her stopped broadside. Now keep in mind this was no giant monster buck, the deer was probably only 60-70lbs dressed. When I released the arrow and saw the impact I heard a huge crack and the deer nose dived and plowed on her front feet and crashed only 20 yards away.
> 
> ...


Your new set up is going to tear up those wimpy Jersey deer! LOL Just kiddin. I cut my deer hunting teeth on Jersey deer. I really think you'll have no problems from any angle especially w/ your BH change. My new set up is simular to yours. I can hardly wait to let the testing begin this fall.


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## blurredvision (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey thanks timmyz7. Definitely leaning toward arrow dynamics u.s.a. Made shafts . Did you buy direct from their web site or a pro shop. I'm having trouble finding them in a local shop


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

I bought direct but as LB stated if your suggested spine is .300 and above get the Quest Power Punch arrows. They are made by Arrow Dynamics but sorted by Quest to tighter specs. I needed .275-.250 and the Stingers purchased direct from AD are shooting flawlessly. So either way you should be fine. Any other questions p.m. me I will do my best to help, I don't won't to take up too much space on Henro's thread.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

LvToHunt said:


> Your new set up is going to tear up those wimpy Jersey deer! LOL Just kiddin. I cut my deer hunting teeth on Jersey deer. I really think you'll have no problems from any angle especially w/ your BH change. My new set up is simular to yours. I can hardly wait to let the testing begin this fall.


You had to go there! Cut a little slack on us Jersey boys it's bad enough we live in a blue state who would rather see deer hit by cars then hunted by men. They all look big the more you stare at them, lol.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

The Rage folks are gonna' hate me but if you put a rage on even a really heavy arrow it will kill the momentum as it encounters a big bone.......because the ferrule is too large and too weak from the long slots for the big blades. You will lose too much energy when if impacts the bone it’s in the design. Please tell me you saved the head from that shot and can post a pic of it.

The Rage works wonders if you miss the big stuff but like your signature says “prepare for the worst and hope for the best”…..that’s a much better philosophy IMO.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> My first group with them! Stinger PTP Big Game .275 spine 10gpi 30gr brass insert FFP 360 vanes with ArroWraps Grim Reaper wraps. This is my Whitetail arrow with good f.o.c. and allows me to shoot 100gr/125gr without being to stiff. The Nocturnal G nocks will be on them soon!
> 
> By the way Henro, have you ceased your desire to shoot big mechanical heads? I understand the purpose of the single bevel traditional style broadhead in accordance with an Ashby build but was curious if this one experience or others have caused you to pursue only fixed heads.
> 
> View attachment 1351442


For deer at least. But this 547gr 3.5" cut broadhead with 25.38% FOC will hopefully connect with a monster turkey in the next 4 weeks...











LvToHunt said:


> Your new set up is going to tear up those wimpy Jersey deer! LOL Just kiddin. I cut my deer hunting teeth on Jersey deer. I really think you'll have no problems from any angle especially w/ your BH change. My new set up is simular to yours. I can hardly wait to let the testing begin this fall.


I wouldn't say all our NJ deer look like that... This one made it through this year...











deadquiet said:


> The Rage folks are gonna' hate me but if you put a rage on even a really heavy arrow it will kill the momentum as it encounters a big bone.......because the ferrule is too large and too weak from the long slots for the big blades. You will lose too much energy when if impacts the bone it’s in the design. Please tell me you saved the head from that shot and can post a pic of it.
> 
> The Rage works wonders if you miss the big stuff but like your signature says “prepare for the worst and hope for the best”…..that’s a much better philosophy IMO.


Unfortunately no I didn't take a picture. The blades were trashed like every single other one I shot a deer with. Rage did replace them all with brand new ones for free everytime no questions asked. Yes I do agree though I think I have made a better choice now!


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

AD does not have .275 spine PTP shafts, they are really 300 spine and mislabeled. Quest is working with them to get a true .275 spine. I both them from AD as .275 but they were really 300-320 spine. Quest also has the brass inserts to fit them which are really nice. The aluminum don't fit as well as they should.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

henro said:


> For deer at least. But this 547gr 3.5" cut broadhead with 25.38% FOC will hopefully connect with a monster turkey in the next 4 weeks...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well there you go Jersey does have big deer. LOL Actually I was refering to body size I grew up in the Pines and 100lbs was uncommon.. There are some big racks in Jersey for sure. My friend got a 153" and a 146" last year.(Talk about a great year!) plus he has a 157" on the wall from public land. Him and his partner have several others that make P & Y also from public land.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

TimmyZ7 said:


> You had to go there! Cut a little slack on us Jersey boys it's bad enough we live in a blue state who would rather see deer hit by cars then hunted by men. They all look big the more you stare at them, lol.


Hasn't the limit changed to a doe a day? Over here it's generally 1 buck 1 doe and the season generally ends on Thanksgiving weekend. Kinda makes me wanna go back to Jersey so I can really Whack n Stack em!


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

He is a beauty! His rack looks too big for his body. Would love to see him in September. I have an introduction I would like to make.:wink:


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

We have earn a buck for the early bow season and unlimited doe permits. They have recently implemented a 3 on one side rule also. My only problem with Jersey deer is the lack of brow tines in my observation. Did you see the Bone Collector episode where the crew came to Jersey and Wadell got busted by the doe. Ha! I always said if you want to meet the smartest and toughest deer to hunt come to NJ. They may not be the largest but a well skilled Jersey hunter can kill a buck anywhere but those skilled in other states will have a tough time in NJ! What do you think Henro?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> We have earn a buck for the early bow season and unlimited doe permits. They have recently implemented a 3 on one side rule also. My only problem with Jersey deer is the lack of brow tines in my observation. Did you see the Bone Collector episode where the crew came to Jersey and Wadell got busted by the doe. Ha! I always said if you want to meet the smartest and toughest deer to hunt come to NJ. They may not be the largest but a well skilled Jersey hunter can kill a buck anywhere but those skilled in other states will have a tough time in NJ! What do you think Henro?


It's a different breed that's for sure...


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

TimmyZ7 said:


> We have earn a buck for the early bow season and unlimited doe permits. They have recently implemented a 3 on one side rule also. My only problem with Jersey deer is the lack of brow tines in my observation. Did you see the Bone Collector episode where the crew came to Jersey and Wadell got busted by the doe. Ha! I always said if you want to meet the smartest and toughest deer to hunt come to NJ. They may not be the largest but a well skilled Jersey hunter can kill a buck anywhere but those skilled in other states will have a tough time in NJ! What do you think Henro?


Yeah I saw that episode. I loved it. That was a more true depiction of what bowhunting is for alot of guys. I remember hunting in or near developments, office parks and golf courses. I also rember losing good spots to developments, office parks and golf courses!


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Is the 3 pt restriction for the whole state? Or just Fort Dix. The shotgun gangs will have a hard time w/ that rule.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Is the 3 pt restriction for the whole state? Or just Fort Dix. The shotgun gangs will have a hard time w/ that rule.


Not the whole state.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

henro said:


> Not the whole state.


henro sorry to hyjack your thread. Just like to keep up to date w/ what's happening back home. I am curious though how the antler restriction was implemented. I just did it again sorry.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

henro said:


> Ok so here's a little background info that got me started on building this setup after I read the Ashby reports. Before I hunted with my Monster's, my hunting rig was a Mathews Z7 29"@72lbs shooting a 556gr .300 FMJ's @ 259fps. The kinetic energy from this was 82.9 and momentum was .639. Now every deer I ever shot with it(Rage 2-blades with 13% FOC) did die. But on one particular deer I shot with it 2 years ago, the results were pretty surprising to me.
> 
> A 1.5 year old doe came in to my set at 20-25 yards and I took the shot with her stopped broadside. Now keep in mind this was no giant monster buck, the deer was probably only 60-70lbs dressed. When I released the arrow and saw the impact I heard a huge crack and the deer nose dived and plowed on her front feet and crashed only 20 yards away.
> 
> ...


One thing I should've added to this was the comparison between the FMJ's I was using then compared to the VAP's I have now. Those .300 FMJ's were 27 5/8" material length @ 12.0 GPI. They had 125gr heads, 50gr bass inserts and 5gr BAR's up front and had a 11gr reflective wrap, 3 blazers and nockturnals on the back. They had a decent amount of weight up front but the GPI was too high to make a good FOC % as it was only 13%. The VAP 250's are cut to 27" material length and are a stiffer spine but are still only 9.7GPI. I now have 234.5gr up front with a 3.1gr wrap, 3 FFP-360s and a Nockturnal and my FOC is 24.5%! The FMJ's were the most accurate, tough and forgiving hunting arrows I had ever shot. The issue for me with them is it's too hard to build a high FOC setup with them and not have a very heavy arrow build. My total build now has more head weight and weighs about 10gr less than the FMJ's did. In targets I've already seen a huge difference in how much more these new arrows penetrate! I am sold on this concept.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

hey henro, im currently building a similar set up for my omen...where did you find field tips in say a 180 grain range that fit the victory arrows ???


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> hey henro, im currently building a similar set up for my omen...where did you find field tips in say a 180 grain range that fit the victory arrows ???


It depends what insert size you want. Victory offers 9/32" and 5/16". I have the 9/32" with 9/32" 145gr fp's. 3riversarchery.com has 9/32" up to 145gr and 5/16" up to 175gr.
http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=CF511X

They also have heavy weights in 200, 225, 250 and 300gr that they say are designed to fit 5/16" diameter and larger shafting
http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=CF581X


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Wow something major has changed with the OT2 program... I just downloaded it's latest update and reran the spine match with the same saved personal calibrations from just a few days ago after I chrono'd my bow. I wonder what they changed in the software? I'll send them an email to see if they can explain. I ran the program using the VAP V1 250 and the VAP V1H-93 and got the same results so that's not it.

Before update:









After update:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Found this on their Q&A Forum(makes sense now after seeing my testing was showing the spine match was good): 

Latest Versions - SFA V2432-5, TAC V3431-5, SSX V4432-5
Database changes...

This is the 5th DB release (-5) for 2012.

Added Easton ION, new shaft product lines: Quest and BlackEagle

Bug fix...Spine match calc Vx429-x431 had a double entry for a spine adjust resulting a slightly stiffer recommendation being made.


Explanation for "Use Mfg IBO" as a camstyle:

This acts in the same manner as a Cam Style being selected but offers slightly different results.

The cam style "hardness" still depends on the IBO as stated by the Mfg. The difference is a 330IBO (X-Hard) will now give a different optimal spine than a 340, 350, etc (X-Hard).

The Cam Style selection will eventually be discontinued...they are being left in for the time being for backwards compatibility.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Messed up my FOC measurement on my VAP's... Just remeasured after I realized what I did.

FOC%= [(19.125/27.03125)-.5]*100=20.75% Still not too shabby...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

2 packs of these showed up at my house today...


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Screw those beasts on and take some pics on the arrow to do them some spear like justice. They got to look beastly on those slim Vaps!


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Be careful, they're sharp, lol..


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I got a little time to play with them today. I shot them at 20 yards and and they're about 4" high so I have to play with the rest a little to tune them in but there isn't much left/right variance. I had to run before I could make any adjustments. 

Out of the box they are pretty sharp. I made a couple passes on my Strop Block and WOW they came out wicked sharp. I highly recommend the Strop Block to everybody. It's only $19.97 and is really well made. You guys can buy it here: http://www.knivesplus.com/KP-STROP8-STROPBLOCK.html









After making them razor sharp I weighed them and spin tested for straightness. This is where I ran into a snag... Firstly, here are the weights: 146.6 145.1 145.1 143.5 143.5 142. I was a little surprised by this but figured I had to spin test them before I made any judgements. 2 heads spun great, 2 heads spun what I would say is acceptable but I could see a slight wobble and 2 were spinning BAD. 

At this point it was time to call Steelforce... I spoke with the owner's wife as he just stepped out and explained the issue. She said she would have her husband call me back but she was upset the heads were sent out spinning perfectly as they were all supposed to be checked before shipping. She told me how they adjust them by putting some pressure on them to slightly bend the steel ferrule to position them correctly. After I got off the phone I tried this myself and voila problem solved! I was able to straighten out the bad spinning heads and get the acceptable ones to spin more true as well. 

About 15 minutes later I got a call back from Nick the owner at Steelforce. I told him how I was able to correct the issue and we chatted back and forth about my arrow build. He was great to talk to and requested I keep him posted with results from this upcoming hunting season. He sounded pretty confident that nothing would be able to stop this arrow. I was really impressed with his level of interest in his customer's and the personal service they showed. They had no issue replacing my heads but I was able to fix the issue myself.

Here's some pics I took today. One cool picture in particular shows how much more the broadheads penetrated versus field points. It's 2 broadhead tipped arrows and 2 field point tipped arrows. The block target had another old very tough bag target directly behind it. They still penetrated into that as well. If that wasn't there I think they would've gone a few inches farther. Looks like there isn't much out there to stop them...


































One thing to also note was that I found that 16awg speaker cable fits perfectly just inside an Easton G nock. Because of this I was able to cut some wire to fit in them and make them the exact same weight as my Nockturnal G nocks at 12.3gr.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

ttt


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Very good info. I am glad to hear the great customer service you received as well. It looks like you finished your build and all that's left is to smoke some bucks.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Very good info. I am glad to hear the great customer service you received as well. It looks like you finished your build and all that's left is to smoke some bucks.


Just gotta make an adjustment to the rest when I have time to shoot it again and then it's all good to go! I cannot wait to shoot something with it!


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

I cannot wait to see an obliterated set of shoulders picture from one of your victims. There is a good chance this arrow could bust through one deer and into another beside it so I guess you will have to be extra picky with your shots, lol. I have been following this thread from the beginning and must say I am very impressed with your build and very excited for you. There is a ton of killing potential in your setup to absolutely devastate game. I am looking forward to future pics!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> I cannot wait to see an obliterated set of shoulders picture from one of your victims. There is a good chance this arrow could bust through one deer and into another beside it so I guess you will have to be extra picky with your shots, lol. I have been following this thread from the beginning and must say I am very impressed with your build and very excited for you. There is a ton of killing potential in your setup to absolutely devastate game. I am looking forward to future pics!


Thanks I will be sure to keep this going with pics this upcoming season. Even if it's some type of small game with those 150gr VPA SGT's! Those are gonna be nasty too! 

One thing I gotta say is how nice this MR5 shoots for being the fastest speed bow Mathews makes. It doesn't feel like I'm sacrificing anything to get these kind of numbers. The bow has all the things people look for in a hunting bow: smooth/quiet/fast and yet this is a 360fps IBO 5" BH bow. You don't get that feeling when you shoot it.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

As unpopular as it is to say here on AT, Mathews makes some really nice bows. I am a fan and own a z7. I really like the monster series and it is the one series of mathews that you do not hear bashing on. Of course the only thing I hear is that it is basically a P.S.E. They cannot find a flaw in it so they say it must have been a stolen design, go figure. I was especially impressed seeing how well Brdy's performed along side of the PSE's in his first test video. So I do agree they have a unique ability to gather all of the desired characteristics for a good hunting rig and yet some how make it feel so good! I am sure you are at a point of just about complete satisfaction with the iceing on the cake to take place when you paint the arrows red! BTW, any news on those 2" phat head mechanicals from Steel Force that Brdy mentioned?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> As unpopular as it is to say here on AT, Mathews makes some really nice bows. I am a fan and own a z7. I really like the monster series and it is the one series of mathews that you do not hear bashing on. Of course the only thing I hear is that it is basically a P.S.E. They cannot find a flaw in it so they say it must have been a stolen design, go figure. I was especially impressed seeing how well Brdy's performed along side of the PSE's in his first test video. So I do agree they have a unique ability to gather all of the desired characteristics for a good hunting rig and yet some how make it feel so good! I am sure you are at a point of just about complete satisfaction with the iceing on the cake to take place when you paint the arrows red! BTW, any news on those 2" phat head mechanicals from Steel Force that Brdy mentioned?


Only thing I saw about them was what alwayslookn posted on brdymkr's thread.


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## Christopher67 (Nov 13, 2009)

henro said:


> I got a little time to play with them today. I shot them at 20 yards and and they're about 4" high so I have to play with the rest a little to tune them in but there isn't much left/right variance. I had to run before I could make any adjustments.
> 
> Out of the box they are pretty sharp. I made a couple passes on my Strop Block and WOW they came out wicked sharp. I highly recommend the Strop Block to everybody. It's only $19.97 and is really well made. You guys can buy it here: http://www.knivesplus.com/KP-STROP8-STROPBLOCK.html
> 
> ...



Very nice~! :thumbs_up


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

When are we going elephant hunting henro? With an mr5 and those arrows nothing has a chance.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

0nepin said:


> When are we going elephant hunting henro? With an mr5 and those arrows nothing has a chance.


Lol I joke with friends I could take this rig out for Elephant. Wish I had the funds for something like that... I would want to shoot another 100-200gr at least but I have the rig for it! Gold Tip BG Kinetic 200s with a 300+ grain head would be the ticket!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Tuning is finally complete! Swapped out my top cam as it was making a rattle(think it was a bad cam bearing) and the bow is noticeably quieter. Put a twist into each cable to get the timing marks back on and the bow now maxes out at 72lbs. I set it to 70 and chrono'd it with a 546.3gr arrow at 281fps. That puts IBO at 361! Then I took it outside to finish broadhead tuning. A slight tweak to the rest and the results speak for themselves! This is 2 field points and 2 Steelforce single bevels at 25yds:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

One of the cool things I forgot to note was how the arrows with the broadheads twist when being pulled from the target from the single bevel spinning as it cuts the wound channel. Should be devastating on game animals!


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Is there a big advantage to the single bevel.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

0nepin said:


> Is there a big advantage to the single bevel.


When hitting the bone it will shatter it as opposed to trying to slice or wedge it apart.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Also, as Henro mentioned the "twisting/spinning" effect in the wound channel provides more of a hole as opposed to a sliver which allows a better channel for blood flow in most instances. By twisting it has the ability to come in contact with more tissue, literally grabbing at it, and thus devastates more as it punches through the animal.


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## owmygulay (Feb 6, 2012)

henro said:


>


Those things look awesome on the end of those vaps. If you didn't know how big that arrow really was you would thing it was something meant to throw.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

0nepin said:


> Is there a big advantage to the single bevel.


The best way to understand it's advantages is to read the Ashby reports. He gives full detailed reports on it's design and benefits. If you haven't read his reports I REALLY suggest you give them a whirl. I learned a ton from them and it's all real world testing. You don't have to take it as the bible to you but anything you can pickup and apply to your setup will help you gain penetration and a better understanding of what it takes to build a lethal hunting arrow.

This is all his reports and the second link is about the single bevel design:

http://www.tuffhead.com/education/ashby.html

http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/Why Single-Bevel Broadheads.pdf



TimmyZ7 said:


> When hitting the bone it will shatter it as opposed to trying to slice or wedge it apart.


It actually is designed to split and crack hard bone to better penetrate through it. It twists or rotates as it penetrates an object and the twisting causes the two sides of the object it's penetrating to push away from each other causing them to split and continuing to drive through and beyond.



owmygulay said:


> Those things look awesome on the end of those vaps. If you didn't know how big that arrow really was you would thing it was something meant to throw.


Yeah this is a 27" carbon to carbon shaft.


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## chirohunter73 (Nov 29, 2008)

marked for reference for the great information.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

henro.....glad you talked to Nick.....he is a FOUNTAIN of info.......and a phenomenal guy.
I am also glad that you found them acceptable.
NOT glad that they were not spinning true......as they are supposed to be checked......although that mongo Tanto may be a bit of a learning curve for me.
Another note about single bevels is that they spin AWAY from bone on glancing hits (according to Dr Ashby).
Let the trees and dirt beware........your set up is gonna be enough to shoot a bus with !


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> henro.....glad you talked to Nick.....he is a FOUNTAIN of info.......and a phenomenal guy.
> I am also glad that you found them acceptable.
> NOT glad that they were not spinning true......as they are supposed to be checked......although that mongo Tanto may be a bit of a learning curve for me.
> Another note about single bevels is that they spin AWAY from bone on glancing hits (according to Dr Ashby).
> Let the trees and dirt beware........your set up is gonna be enough to shoot a bus with !


Lol when does bus season start? Thanks for your input and yes Nick was great to talk with about my setup and the way you guys build these broadheads. He said you're the only ones in the country who grind titanium I believe? I was aggravated about the heads not spinning true at first but the way Nick's wife explained how to fix them made it easy to adjust them. Nick explained it was from having the inserts from one company with one tolerance level and the ferrule from another with a slight difference in tolerance. Said it was just some tweaking on your end before they go out and apologized for these not being shipped out right.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

henro said:


> Lol when does bus season start? Thanks for your input and yes Nick was great to talk with about my setup and the way you guys build these broadheads. He said you're the only ones in the country who grind titanium I believe? I was aggravated about the heads not spinning true at first but the way Nick's wife explained how to fix them made it easy to adjust them. Nick explained it was from having the inserts from one company with one tolerance level and the ferrule from another with a slight difference in tolerance. Said it was just some tweaking on your end before they go out and apologized for these not being shipped out right.


I am just happy that you got it fixed........shoot the worst two and tell us what you got for results.......they should be fine right out of the pack.
The best customer service is the one you don't have to use..........but this stuff happens.
Thanks for the patience.


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## 05cummins (Feb 23, 2012)

thats a bad MR5


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> [/COLOR]I am just happy that you got it fixed........shoot the worst two and tell us what you got for results.......they should be fine right out of the pack.
> The best customer service is the one you don't have to use..........but this stuff happens.
> Thanks for the patience.


Listen I'm a car salesman. You don't have to explain that to me. I fully understand things happen. It's how the company resolves the issue that makes/breaks them. Your company handled it as best it could and I was fully satisfied.



05cummins said:


> thats a bad MR5


Thanks! I can easily say it's my favorite Mathews bow(and any for that matter) that I've owned to date. I have the Monster 6.7 as well and previously owned a Z7, DXT, Prestige and Switchback).


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Bump it up so some more people can see the finished results.


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## LawnDartLeo (Apr 18, 2012)

Not going to argue with the good Doctors results as he has published enough research to convince me of the benefits of heavy and slow at least from a physics standpoint. I'll buy all the mathematical wizzardry as I am quite familiar with much of it from my days as a stressed out mechanical engineering student. However....

How many times haven't we either seen up close and in person or on video, that deer with ninja like reflexes that jumps an arrow?

I've seen enough that I will take a hard look at single bevels, but I am still not convinced that speed should be so heavily discounted... especially when hunting wily white tails that are not a threat to gore your Range Rover and stomp you into dust after you fall off the tail gate.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LawnDartLeo said:


> Not going to argue with the good Doctors results as he has published enough research to convince me of the benefits of heavy and slow at least from a physics standpoint. I'll buy all the mathematical wizzardry as I am quite familiar with much of it from my days as a stressed out mechanical engineering student. However....
> 
> How many times haven't we either seen up close and in person or on video, that deer with ninja like reflexes that jumps an arrow?
> 
> I've seen enough that I will take a hard look at single bevels, but I am still not convinced that speed should be so heavily discounted... especially when hunting wily white tails that are not a threat to gore your Range Rover and stomp you into dust after you fall off the tail gate.


I'm still shooting 281fps? That's not slow. Too many people get hung up on speed. When you actually calculate say a 20fps difference in time it takes an arrow to hit a target at say 40yds its a couple tenths of a second. Plus the heavier arrows are much quieter so you won't be spooking the animal as much. I've been hunting with arrows around 550gr the last 4 years and never had an animal jump my string. I also try not to shoot when they're looking at me. The first year I was shooting 259fps with a Z7 and never had any issues.


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## brokenlittleman (Oct 18, 2006)

So all this is because you didn't get good penetration with a Rage broadhead? Wow. I thought I took things to the extreme. I will say for sure you are prepared for the worst, especialy if you find dangerous game coming after you. Nice buck by the way. I hope you get a crack at him this year. Hunted NJ for twenty years before moving to the midwest.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

brokenlittleman said:


> So all this is because you didn't get good penetration with a Rage broadhead? Wow. I thought I took things to the extreme. I will say for sure you are prepared for the worst, especialy if you find dangerous game coming after you. Nice buck by the way. I hope you get a crack at him this year. Hunted NJ for twenty years before moving to the midwest.


Lol no it's not just that. The rage head was just an example of showing how all parts of the equation are important to penetration. I already had good mass weight with high KE and MO and proper arrow flight. Now I've added a much better penetrating broadhead design as well as higher FOC. If the old setup could be stopped by that small doe, it only shows that a big buck will be that much tougher if hit in the wrong spot. Now I'm ready for the worst and really not sacrificing much of anything? There's nothing wrong with having too good of a penetrating setup in the archery world. Our ultimate goal is a complete pass through and this setup is built to try to accomplish that at any scenario.


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## brokenlittleman (Oct 18, 2006)

That is true. There have been many times I have had doubt but I have been lucky enough that penetration has never been an issue for me. I will admitt that I am looking for something /set up for better penetration as well but I just haven't gotten to your level yet. Opportunities don't come as often as we want and when it does on that once in a life time it would be nice to know that even if I don't execute perfectly my set up will make up for the difference. Show us some pics of the big NJ deer when you get him.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

brokenlittleman said:


> That is true. There have been many times I have had doubt but I have been lucky enough that penetration has never been an issue for me. I will admitt that I am looking for something /set up for better penetration as well but I just haven't gotten to your level yet. Opportunities don't come as often as we want and when it does on that once in a life time it would be nice to know that even if I don't execute perfectly my set up will make up for the difference. Show us some pics of the big NJ deer when you get him.


Thanks I definitely will. My brother had a too close to call encounter last year opening day with him but he's still roaming our woods.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Got the wheels spinning again... Just shot with 300gr fp's my brother got for his recurve on my arrows and only had about 3" drop at 40yds... Bow was dead quiet! Might have to play around with them... If they show good spine results I could shoot a true 3:1 Ashby style head.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Figured I'd throw this out there... I did some brief testing just shooting the VAP's I built into my Rhinehart Rhinoblock. I just wanted to see how they shot with a 200gr head on them versus the 145gr head. The shafts with the 145gr heads weighed 544.7gr with 20.75% FOC and were going 281fps. The shafts with the 200gr heads weight 599.3gr with 22.88% FOC and were going 268fps. I was pretty impressed with the speeds of this heavier shaft from my MR5 at 29"/70lbs!

Now I know the target I was shooting has no relationship to shooting a deer or any game animal. This test was just to have a side by side comparison into the same medium. I made sure to shoot the arrows that were being compared very closely to each other to try to hit the same density on the target. The shots were only taken from about 10 yards away. Average penetration for the 145gr shafts came to 13" exactly. The 200gr heads were noticeably better averaging 15 1/16". I was pretty surprised as this represents a 15.87% increase in penetration over the 145gr shafts! 

I don't know if I'm going to make a change or not because I really like the 145gr Steelforce heads I have now and the bow is tuned perfectly to them. I shot a couple bareshafts with fletched arrows using the 200gr heads just to see how they fly and they were close but the rest would need some slight tweaking. I don't think I want to go through moving it now and having to find another broadhead to use. I thought this would be good info for others to see though.:thumbs_up


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Hey henro, i could be completely wrong, but i thought that Ashby's reports showed that a hardwood arrow was stronger than alum and carbon. Plus the ideal weight was between 650-800 grains?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

dbow said:


> Hey henro, i could be completely wrong, but i thought that Ashby's reports showed that a hardwood arrow was stronger than alum and carbon. Plus the ideal weight was between 650-800 grains?


I'm using carbon I'm not changing that. The second question was already asked earlier. I'm not looking to shoot a 650+ grain arrow as I'm only hunting deer with this. One of Ashby's major points was that not everyone will/has to use his readings to the exact letter but to try to incorporate as much of his research as you can to benefit your setup. My recurve arrows I'm building are a lot closer to full recommendations. They're coming in at 700-730gr with 25-27+% FOC depending on how they tune out.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

Hey Henro.......just a quick thought.......one premise that I have tried to express before is that the 100/145 is a much shorter head than the longer 190-300 grainers. This causes a much more "violent" rotation. If I use a 145 2 balde double bevel African and the new 145 single.......the double will out penetrate the single.....every time....every medium. The 3:1 145 double will best them both. Interesting note.....if you measure to the widest point of the main blade or the insert.....the short 145 double is the best.
But the 225 single vs the 300 single is virtually identical with tuned set ups. Occasionally the 300's will weaken spine enough that they do not penetrate as well.
I think the shorter singles are a good compromise head.....allowing realistic trajectories and the percieved advantages of a single bevel all in one. But they rotate once inside the target at a much faster rate which makes them meet a little more resistance.
Glad you like the 145's.....and with most set ups.....this head will be devastating.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> Hey Henro.......just a quick thought.......one premise that I have tried to express before is that the 100/145 is a much shorter head than the longer 190-300 grainers. This causes a much more "violent" rotation. If I use a 145 2 balde double bevel African and the new 145 single.......the double will out penetrate the single.....every time....every medium. The 3:1 145 double will best them both. Interesting note.....if you measure to the widest point of the main blade or the insert.....the short 145 double is the best.
> But the 225 single vs the 300 single is virtually identical with tuned set ups. Occasionally the 300's will weaken spine enough that they do not penetrate as well.
> I think the shorter singles are a good compromise head.....allowing realistic trajectories and the percieved advantages of a single bevel all in one. But they rotate once inside the target at a much faster rate which makes them meet a little more resistance.
> Glad you like the 145's.....and with most set ups.....this head will be devastating.


Good info for sure. Like you said I think the head I have now has the best of everything in it. The shorter blade is less prone to tip bending but I think the single bevel will still penetrate hard bone better. I think combining this setup with my MR5 which is packing the heat will overcome the extra twist brought on by the single bevel. I also like the idea of more twisting to tear up more vital parts inside the animal. One thing I thought was cool from reading Ashby's reports was how effective the single bevel design is on shots far back in the intestine/gut area and how it tears them up. Now I'm not going to just try and aim for brown and hit the animal anywhere but I think this is gonna be a lethal package... Btw, do you think you can make me a titanium head like the 145s I have but in a 200gr version? I called and left 2 messages this week at the shop but never got a call back. My brother might buy my 145s if I decide to go to a 200gr and they tune well...


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

dbow said:


> Hey henro, i could be completely wrong, but i thought that Ashby's reports showed that a hardwood arrow was stronger than alum and carbon. Plus the ideal weight was between 650-800 grains?


dbow.......while Dr Ashby has done extensive testing, and I respect a lot of his conjecture. He also creates a set up with less useful trajectory, using less accurate components (see not as consisitent in straightness or repeatable weight tolerance Wood vs Carbon/Aluminum/etc), and maintains the concept of maximizing the results from low efficiency set ups.

In my opinion , and experience, most hunters are not willing to accept the limitations of Dr Ashby's equipment, as their wholesale application will not be as utilitarian in actual field experience.
To adopt a wood arrow mentality for "strength" (which I seriously question) and then having to deal with consistent arrow weight/consistency/availability issues down the road, lack of options in terminal components, and the shear amount of time needed to set up an Ashby arrow (let alone the bow) is a micromanagement of a relatively non existent problem. All in all......it creates a bit of a logistcal nightmare in an effort to appease the theoretical.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

henro said:


> Good info for sure. Like you said I think the head I have now has the best of everything in it. The shorter blade is less prone to tip bending but I think the single bevel will still penetrate hard bone better. I think combining this setup with my MR5 which is packing the heat will overcome the extra twist brought on by the single bevel. I also like the idea of more twisting to tear up more vital parts inside the animal. One thing I thought was cool from reading Ashby's reports was how effective the single bevel design is on shots far back in the intestine/gut area and how it tears them up. Now I'm not going to just try and aim for brown and hit the animal anywhere but I think this is gonna be a lethal package... Btw, do you think you can make me a titanium head like the 145s I have but in a 200gr version? I called and left 2 messages this week at the shop but never got a call back. My brother might buy my 145s if I decide to go to a 200gr and they tune well...


henro.....best to PM or email me......Nick's wife is part time for the next couple weeks and she answers the phone.
If the grinder is set up I can have them do a single bevel in the 190 African.......it comes up at like 205 ish.......Stainless 080 blade.....same ferrule as the other SB head.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

And by the way Henro........gut and intestinal shots are usually complicated more by fletching than the head, your set up and the 145 will kill anything not featured on Whale wars........lol.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Glad to see this thread has been getting bumped; am new to the forums, and coulda missed it completely.

Am going to be starting a similar build for my new bow soon; you've probably saved me a ton of guddling around in the dark and burning money to no good purpose. Thanks for sharing this project, henro. :thumbs_up


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> And by the way Henro........gut and intestinal shots are usually complicated more by fletching than the head, your set up and the 145 will kill anything not featured on Whale wars........lol.


I was talking about how he showed that with a single bevel the intestines wrap around when it twists and cuts more of them. It was cool to see, he showed pics and how it looks. Here's the link for anybody who hasn't seen it. It starts on page 18 and goes through page 20. 
http://tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/Why Single-Bevel Broadheads.pdf

Good to know I'll send you a pm if I decide to try the bigger head. My brother just got some of your 300gr traditional single bevels for his recurve and they fly great. I'm gonna order some soon once I get my recurve tuned up.



jusoldave said:


> Glad to see this thread has been getting bumped; am new to the forums, and coulda missed it completely.
> 
> Am going to be starting a similar build for my new bow soon; you've probably saved me a ton of guddling around in the dark and burning money to no good purpose. Thanks for sharing this project, henro. :thumbs_up


Glad I could help! Let me know how it works out.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Finished my recurve arrows yesterday after completing bare shaft tuning. From throat of nock to the insert the Gold Tip Ted Nugent 5575's needed to be 30.75". They're fletched with 5" right helical feathers and have standard GT nocks. I'm using 100gr brass inserts and 300gr heads which puts them at 708gr shooting them at a 136fps average with 29" draw and 47lbs. That calculates out to 28.9KE and 0.426MO. FOC is 27.596% and will go up slightly when I add an inch or two of external footing to protect the end of the shaft. 

I'm going to hunt with the Steelforce Traditional series 300gr single bevels which are a true 3:1 head design. This is my arrow alongside my brother's. He's shooting a Hoyt Gamemaster II with Gold Tip Traditional 3555's at 55lbs and 27" draw. His arrow build is the same as mine with very close final weights.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

henro said:


> Finished my recurve arrows yesterday after completing bare shaft tuning. From throat of nock to the insert the Gold Tip Ted Nugent 5575's needed to be 30.75". They're fletched with 5" right helical feathers and have standard GT nocks. I'm using 100gr brass inserts and 300gr heads which puts them at 708gr shooting them at a 136fps average with 29" draw and 47lbs. That calculates out to 28.9KE and 0.426MO. FOC is 27.596% and will go up slightly when I add an inch or two of external footing to protect the end of the shaft.
> 
> I'm going to hunt with the Steelforce Traditional series 300gr single bevels which are a true 3:1 head design. This is my arrow alongside my brother's. He's shooting a Hoyt Gamemaster II with Gold Tip Traditional 3555's at 55lbs and 27" draw. His arrow build is the same as mine with very close final weights.
> 
> ...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> henro said:
> 
> 
> > Finished my recurve arrows yesterday after completing bare shaft tuning. From throat of nock to the insert the Gold Tip Ted Nugent 5575's needed to be 30.75". They're fletched with 5" right helical feathers and have standard GT nocks. I'm using 100gr brass inserts and 300gr heads which puts them at 708gr shooting them at a 136fps average with 29" draw and 47lbs. That calculates out to 28.9KE and 0.426MO. FOC is 27.596% and will go up slightly when I add an inch or two of external footing to protect the end of the shaft.
> ...


The only things I really hear when I shoot are the string coming off my fingers and the arrow hitting the target. The bow is DEAD quiet. I bought the Bow Hush and Bow Hush Puppies string silencers from TradTalk and they made a world of difference. I'm not worried about the speed as I can't hit the broadside of a barn right now with this thing out past 15-20 yards lol. I need to do a lot more practicing before I take this in the woods. At close range though nothing will stand a chance as they're not going to hear this thing coming!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just finished footing up some of my recurve shafts. A 2216 shaft is what it took to fit over my Gold Tip Ted Nugent 5575's. I used a 2" piece and slid it right up to the end of the insert. The aluminum shaft weighed about 25gr raising total weight to 733gr and changed the FOC to 28.4% I think they look pretty cool now and should be very tough!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ordered an Easton X7 Eclipse 1814 and an Easton XX75 1816 to see what fits over the VAP250's and play with some external footing on them. Should make them indestructable if it works out. If it works out I might go with a 200gr broadhead. Haven't broken one Gold Tip yet with the footings on them and have made some pretty tough hits.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> henro.....best to PM or email me......Nick's wife is part time for the next couple weeks and she answers the phone.
> If the grinder is set up I can have them do a single bevel in the 190 African.......it comes up at like 205 ish.......Stainless 080 blade.....same ferrule as the other SB head.


PM'd you about these.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Update for those that are still following: I'm guessing in roughly a week or so I should be getting a pack to try of those ~200gr steel single bevels to try from Steelforce. Can't wait! Cutting diameter should be slightly bigger at around 1 3/16" as well. Bare shafting showed my arrows to be good with this spine and the 200gr field points so I'm hoping these will tune up good. I've also tried adding an external footing on the VAP's with a 2" piece of 1816 Easton X7 and it did strengthen them up. My arrows are so short though that the footing is sitting on the rest. On paper it shows a low nock tear so I'm going to see if they will tune once I get the new broadheads in and shoot them. Here's more info on that external footing: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1699499


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

Hey I like your thinking. We don't hunt buffalo but moose in north Ontario get big enough to make us sweat penetration. It's tough to convince the young lads that their IBO arrow might not do the job. I started with a cabellas carbon shaft overspined then epoxied a 100 grain .243 bullet behind the insert. Weighs 540 gr., FOC is about 22 %. The problem as you know is insert strength. Next I'm going to Easton brass inserts. I am no where close to as sweet a system as yours but working on it.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Finally got to order the new heavier African single bevel heads from Steelforce and was told they should arrive Monday next week. Shot my VAP250s with 200gr fp's through the chrono yesterday with the lighted nocks. At 603.4gr they hit 267fps with 22.7% FOC. Cannot wait to get the new heads to test. This will be my hunting setup as long as they spine out right. I'll test the external footing also once I get the heads.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ordered these yesterday and they already came in today! The head with the brass ring is the steel 190gr next to the 145gr titanium. These look like they're built to shoot tanks! Weights were 189.9/191.4/194.1 respectively. Total arrow weight with a Nockturnal comes in about 590gr. Only one took a little finesse work to get to spin true. I'll try to make time to test these Sunday. Can't wait!


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

Great thread mega info thanks. My question is trajectory drop in inches with the 590gn from 10 yards to 50 yards

Ps: I've heard reports of Trophy Woolly Mammoths in NJ you sure have the KE to get the job done = ) 

Be safe Have fun Enjoy the hunt


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Trajectory isn't gonna change much from the 545gr arrows. They should be around 270fps still.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

maby you can do this test aiming at the center shoot an arrow at a 10yard target with your shortest range pin highest pin on your sight then shoot a 50 yard target with the same pin and measure the drop in inches. that puts the trajectory drop in perspective for that specific weight projectile. I'm interested in the drop from 0 to 50 yards. or 0 - 60 whatever you feel comfortable shooting even if its a 0 -40 yard we know the further the yardage the drop increases faster as the arrow loses energy.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

im using on target 2 v 4.4.32 playing crunching numbers my arrow vap v1 250 lowest arrow material i can go is "26 , 92gn ss insert the "Spine Match" tab chart shows "Hunting Filter". ok now my goal is to max out this .250 spine. max arrow weight, foc, and Ke ok @ "26.5 i get 288v 93.53Ke 18.56 foc but im on the stiff side out of the green asking me to add more front weight.If i add more weight up front 150gn head my ke drops 92.68ke and my foc increases to 20.67% speed is 279.9 and it still tells me to add more weight in the front still stiff if i keep adding weight i lose Ke.My plan is to just increase arrow length to maxx ke for the 125 head to 200 head and thoughts or tips are appreciated my bow is a 2012 evo 6 70# 28.5 draw

if i go 200gn point 92 insert @"26.5 arrow material i get a good spine match "Spine comments no adj Necessary" 264.59v 23.33%foc 89.89Ke calculated weight = 580.6gn 
I need to read Ashby's study to find where optimum penetration is via foc ke and weight


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

Too bad the VPA 2 blade penetrator are double bevel sharpened . : ( they still may be worthy for my setup undecided on everything but the vap v1 250 and the ss 92gn insert


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

public land said:


> maby you can do this test aiming at the center shoot an arrow at a 10yard target with your shortest range pin highest pin on your sight then shoot a 50 yard target with the same pin and measure the drop in inches. that puts the trajectory drop in perspective for that specific weight projectile. I'm interested in the drop from 0 to 50 yards. or 0 - 60 whatever you feel comfortable shooting even if its a 0 -40 yard we know the further the yardage the drop increases faster as the arrow loses energy.


If I have time to sometime this week I'll try for you. Back yard only goes to about 40 max. I ordered some 175gr fp's and 5gr brass weights to add to get to 190's, so I'll do it when they come in. It's not much change from my 145gr heads after shooting today. I shot my 20yd pin at 25yd which is sighted in for 545gr arrows and they difference from where the 591gr arrows were hitting today was very little.



public land said:


> im using on target 2 v 4.4.32 playing crunching numbers my arrow vap v1 250 lowest arrow material i can go is "26 , 92gn ss insert the "Spine Match" tab chart shows "Hunting Filter". ok now my goal is to max out this .250 spine. max arrow weight, foc, and Ke ok @ "26.5 i get 288v 93.53Ke 18.56 foc but im on the stiff side out of the green asking me to add more front weight.If i add more weight up front 150gn head my ke drops 92.68ke and my foc increases to 20.67% speed is 279.9 and it still tells me to add more weight in the front still stiff if i keep adding weight i lose Ke.My plan is to just increase arrow length to maxx ke for the 125 head to 200 head and thoughts or tips are appreciated my bow is a 2012 evo 6 70# 28.5 draw
> 
> if i go 200gn point 92 insert @"26.5 arrow material i get a good spine match "Spine comments no adj Necessary" 264.59v 23.33%foc 89.89Ke calculated weight = 580.6gn
> I need to read Ashby's study to find where optimum penetration is via foc ke and weight


After you read Ashby's studies you'll realize that ke means nothing as a factor to pay attention to concerning penetration. Things like foc, momentum and total mass weight all linear correlations to penetration enhancement as you increase or decrease them. KE does not, as proven in his testing. Read his reports and you will have a much better understanding. This one is a good place to start: http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/2007 Update, Part 8.pdf Remember above ALL ELSE, your arrow spine must be #1 in importance to insure proper arrow flight and to get the best penetration. OT2 for me has been a very good tool when building arrows for the proper spine, but it's guesstimates on speed and power information aren't exact. You HAVE to do the physical testing with bare shafts and grouping field points and fixed heads to find what works right for your setup. 



public land said:


> Too bad the VPA 2 blade penetrator are double bevel sharpened . : ( they still may be worthy for my setup undecided on everything but the vap v1 250 and the ss 92gn insert


If you don't want to shoot as much head weight play around with the numbers on OT2 with a VAP300 spine too to see what works. It's a slightly less gpi shaft so head weight will keep the foc up a little more per grain. With your bow and your specs I'd guess the spine with a 125gr head might be a little better without having to go to a 200gr head if you don't want to.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Test results from shooting the 190gr broadheads today are... AWESOME!!! These heads fly just like my field points! Total arrow weight shooting with the broadhead and a nockturnal is 591gr and chrono's with the bh on at 265fps with a measured 22.7% FOC. BH's and field points group right with each other and the broadheads shaved vanes at 25 yards first time I shot a group of them! The bow is so quiet on the shot I hear the impact of the arrow hitting the Rhinehart 18-1 more than the release. Arrows are burying up to the fletching almost every time. I took some pics and a vid shooting a lighted nock so you guys could see the arrow flight.

This is the very first group I shot of broadheads at 25yds. I saw a vane drop after the 3rd shot and decided that was sufficient lol. I didn't need to wreck anymore arrows. Check out how much penetration they get:

























Here's a vid of the heads spinning on the RAM spine tester:


Here's a vid of the arrow flight with a nockturnal: 


This last pic is of a footed arrow on the left(which I won't be using) and then an arrow with a broadhead stacked with a field point right below it. I'm so happy these spine out perfectly!


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

Wow this thread has me hook line and sinker. I'm happy henro your setup is awesome glad the heavy head worked for you. I realized in ashby's study's the easier a heads cuts and uses less energy = better penetration. Same goes for most applications cutting tool steel the sharper, better angle on the tooling uses less energy to cut the steel is easier on the machine "the back force of the arrow" the second collision effect and puts overall more energy into the task. He explains it so much better but we all come to the same conclusion. Which is "man my arrow is blowing through the damn target" ... after this the numbers are a mute subject your correct. 

Glad to see your arrows up to the fletching Goal accomplished you pretty much maxed the 0.250 spine at your arrow length "this is my goal"


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I could run up to 240gr up front to stay in the green according to OT2 but this 190gr head shows spine to be spot on using their program. My testing agrees. As you can see here, OT2's guesstimates on speed KE, and FOC are not correct as I've verified my numbers using a chrono and measuring FOC using the AMO method. If you look at OT2 in the Equipment tab with the weight and velocity input manually it does correctly calculate the KE.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

were the new ss penetrator insert 0.245 where it meets the arrow? 
and do i have to special order them? in your pics it looks like the insert is a tad small .235 or so.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

public land said:


> were the new ss penetrator insert 0.245 where it meets the arrow?
> and do i have to special order them? in your pics it looks like the insert is a tad small .235 or so.


I haven't measured them but it's really close. The camera is up close so the difference looks like more than it is.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

henro : I noticed in your Spine Match tab > model you have VAP V1H-93 this will alter the numbers.

I cannot for the life of me find this arrow on Victory's site.

I used model VAP v1 for my calculation.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

public land said:


> henro : I noticed in your Spine Match tab > model you have VAP V1H-93 this will alter the numbers.
> 
> I cannot for the life of me find this arrow on Victory's site.
> 
> I used model VAP v1 for my calculation.


It won't alter the numbers its the same shaft just with the SS insert standard.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

oh okay thanks , my problem now is 200gn field points in 9/32 thread 
i don't think they exist whats the solution


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I'm using 200gr 5/16" fp's. They don't make anything larger than 145gr in 9/32". I just ordered 175gr 5/16" and some 5gr brass weights to add to get to 190gr. Not a big deal as the 5/16" fp's taper down anyway to the width of the inserts.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

seems a bit slow my normal shaft length is 26" i just adjusted it to get in the "good".
the 200gn will be a bit to heavy i think as far as energy and penetration with my setup.
I still don't know what my bow will max at as far as poundage and fps with the 550gn that will determine what i order.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

ouch .. not sure i can go this route


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

this is could live with hope real world gives me close to this


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

You can post that up through pm's next time just so the thread doesn't get sidetracked and cluttered.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

175gr fp's came today and the 5gr brass washers so I shot out to 40yds today a little. Measured drop from 20 to 40yds was about 13.5". The arrows chrono'd 269fps with fp's so they lose about 4fps with the bh's on them.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

Henro,
If you are going to order more heads....let me know before you order.....I will send you a 190 African Double bevel........just to shoot and you can report your findings (or not) as it is a real world SB vs DB comp........they are identical heads except for the grind. As you can see, there can be a slight difference in weights.....industry standards are 5 grains per 100gr increment.......most hold 2 grains. It is much harder with Ti and single bevels......but I do not think you will see any differences in those 3.
Thanks for the report


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## Joe.A (May 8, 2012)

Joining in with a couple of Qs. I just setup some VAP 350s w/ stainless inserts and 125 gr field points (will be using old school muzzy 3 blades 125gr). Using an AM32, 27", 62#s and getting 250 ft/s.

Q1, the OT2 only gives me about 230 ft/s with my setup so I adjusted the performance slider way right until the velocity matched the chrono at 250 ft/s. I found that when I did this OT2 would also be correct for my 3D arrows without further correction (cams are set to IBO). Is there anything wrong with tweaking it this way or is it prefered to use the method you two are using of manually setting the speed?

Q2, how close does the spine and head weight need to be? If the program recommends 340s and I'm shooting 350s is that acceptable? I will state that these arrows tuned way better than my 400 Flatline DOAs with 100gr tips, and my bag target no longer stops them.

Great thread henro.

Joe


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

Heavy arrows are better bumper sticker should be issued.........


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## Joe.A (May 8, 2012)

deadquiet said:


> Heavy arrows are better bumper sticker should be issued.........


Or, "My arrow is thinner than yours".....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After watching me shoot a bit and showing my dad how these heads work he told me to order him up some too. We got him the 100gr titanium heads for his setup and they came in yesterday. Here's the 3 different weights next to each other.









I've had many people ask about the durability of these arrows... Yesterday I made a mental error during some testing and clicked one off using the wrong pin and hit just over the target at 40yds. My backstop is 3/4" plywood bolted up to our wood fence which is made of 1/2" treated wood. You can't see the plywood which is on the other side of the fence. Needless to say that wasn't enough to stop The VAP with a field point. The arrow probably penetrated 8-10" total. There was no damage to the shaft and the insert spun true still. The arrow impacted at roughly a 60-70* angle. Again this was not up close but at 40 yds! I don't think bone penetration will be an issue with these broadheads on the front!



















Joe.A said:


> Joining in with a couple of Qs. I just setup some VAP 350s w/ stainless inserts and 125 gr field points (will be using old school muzzy 3 blades 125gr). Using an AM32, 27", 62#s and getting 250 ft/s.
> 
> Q1, the OT2 only gives me about 230 ft/s with my setup so I adjusted the performance slider way right until the velocity matched the chrono at 250 ft/s. I found that when I did this OT2 would also be correct for my 3D arrows without further correction (cams are set to IBO). Is there anything wrong with tweaking it this way or is it prefered to use the method you two are using of manually setting the speed?
> 
> ...


Don't pay attention to what OT2 guesses for the speed, especially since you have a chrono. The important thing to do is input your chrono speeds in the calibration tab so the program can more accurately adjust to your setup with real world data. As for the spine, input what you have and see what it says. OT2 is not the end-all-be-all for tuning. You still need to physically test your setup to make sure it works. Bare shaft tuning/testing and grouping fixed blade heads with field points will tell the true tale if everything is in tune and the spine is correct.



alwayslookin said:


> Henro,
> If you are going to order more heads....let me know before you order.....I will send you a 190 African Double bevel........just to shoot and you can report your findings (or not) as it is a real world SB vs DB comp........they are identical heads except for the grind. As you can see, there can be a slight difference in weights.....industry standards are 5 grains per 100gr increment.......most hold 2 grains. It is much harder with Ti and single bevels......but I do not think you will see any differences in those 3.
> Thanks for the report


Already ordered the rest of my heads directly dealing with Nick and his wife. 



deadquiet said:


> Heavy arrows are better bumper sticker should be issued.........


:thumbs_up



Joe.A said:


> Or, "My arrow is thinner than yours".....


:thumbs_up


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Also here's the difference in thickness between a 190gr head and a 100gr.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

Thanks for the Drop in inches data Awesome performing setup you have.
My arrows inserts and field points are in.
I have a similar setup as you minus the wraps with blazers and minus nockturnal-g Nock's although i like your Fletch/wrap/nock way better.
Still waiting for my 190gn heads and goat tough glue from eagle archery.
When the 190gn heads come in my plan is to weight match and strop them then do the same to the inserts field points and arrows.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

public land said:


> Thanks for the Drop in inches data Awesome performing setup you have.
> My arrows inserts and field points are in.
> I have a similar setup as you minus the wraps with blazers and minus nockturnal-g Nock's although i like your Fletch/wrap/nock way better.
> Still waiting for my 190gn heads and goat tough glue from eagle archery.
> When the 190gn heads come in my plan is to weight match and strop them then do the same to the inserts field points and arrows.


Sounds like you got a good plan. I replied to your pm's.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

First 80 yard group with the MR5 and my first time shooting that far all year!


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

80Y ... Let me get my glasses on O_O ok now i can see the Target : ) 


 that's a confidence definition.

Be safe Be smart Enjoy the hunt.


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## SierraMtns (Aug 20, 2010)

henro said:


> First 80 yard group with the MR5 and my first time shooting that far all year!


Nice shooting. I really like the arrows you helped me build. Thanks again.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks guys! Glad I could help Sierra! I've got a few of my friends trying out the VAP's now. They've been pretty blown away with the knowledge I've fed them and the results they're seeing!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

So I now have converted 3 of my good buddies to the concepts of Dr. Ashby's work. All 3 have now purchased Victory VAP's for their rigs. The 3 rigs vary in performance as well: Carbon Matrix at 31" DL and 70lbs with VAP250s using SS inserts and 145gr Steelforce Titanium Single Bevel Phatheads(has not received them yet but should be about 565gr and 18-19% FOC @ ~250fps), Monster 6.7 at 28" DL and 80lbs using VAP250s with SS inserts and Steelforce 145gr Titanium Single Bevels Phatheads(haven't recieved yet but should be around 537gr with ~18-19% FOC @ ~280fps) and a Hoyt Trykon at 28" DL and 68lbs using VAP300s with either 43gr aluminum inserts and Abowyer Brownbear 200gr or SS insert with Abowyer Boneheads 185gr(~520gr arrow with ~22% FOC @ 250fps). Also my brother's build is similar with his Elite Pulse at 26.5" DL and 80lbs using Gold Tip Kinetic Pro 300s with 50gr brass inserts and Steelforce 145gr Titanium Single Bevel Phatheads(512gr with 15% FOC @ 271fps). My dad doesn't get out as much as us(at least we get him out) but we have him rigged with the Steelforce 100gr Titanium Single Bevel Phatheads on his 5575 Gold Tip XT Hunters with standard inserts out of his 29" DL 60lb Mathews Drenalin(don't remember his specifics but it's a 28" amo arrow with a wrap and blazers). 

I will try to compile as much info and results this year from all of our success the hunting season in this thread to share the data with everyone. I'll see if I can get them to join and add to the topic as well. Be prepared to see a lot of carnage!:devil::devil::devil::devil:


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## boone hunter (Mar 21, 2012)

Going to get my hands on some roadkill front leg and shoulders to test these arrow/broadheads on.
For anyone wondering why the Overkill....
If any of you have ever lost deer to a shoulder blade or front leg/ knuckle hits ( hence the Ashby statement build an arrow for when things go wrong) live deer don't stand still like targets. Sometimes we don't hit exactly where we want to.
We are building these arrows for exactly those moments when you hit something solid on an animal and need to breach it to penetrate to vitals.
Ashby may have been shooting Giant Asian and Cape buffalo with his arrow builds. So applying some of his findings to our modern setups ( which the amount of is up to each individual) I'm pretty confident will perform on whitetails flawlessly.
We will post results!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

boone hunter said:


> Going to get my hands on some roadkill front leg and shoulders to test these arrow/broadheads on.
> For anyone wondering why the Overkill....
> If any of you have ever lost deer to a shoulder blade or front leg/ knuckle hits ( hence the Ashby statement build an arrow for when things go wrong) live deer don't stand still like targets. Sometimes we don't hit exactly where we want to.
> We are building these arrows for exactly those moments when you hit something solid on an animal and need to breach it to penetrate to vitals.
> ...


Thanks Ant. Ant's shooting the Trykon with the VAP build and Abowyer broadheads. Those things are wicked sharp!


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## boone hunter (Mar 21, 2012)

Here Is a pic of the bonehead with ss insert


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## boone hunter (Mar 21, 2012)




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## russinko79 (Aug 25, 2010)

this morning i shot my first doe with my new victory vap 250 spline arrows with 145 grain single bevel 2 blade broad heads by steal force with 90 grain stainless steal inserts. i shot her at 25 yards broad side broke 2 ribs on exit and sunk 3/4 of the way into the ground. doe ran 30 yards and crashed. the damage with this arrow set up is incredable! best part about it was i washed the arrow off and put it back in my quiver no damage what so ever! 
Hoyt carbon matrix
31 in draw 72 lbs 
ibo 334 
566 grain hunting arrow @ 270 fps


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

russinko79 said:


> this morning i shot my first doe with my new victory vap 250 spline arrows with 145 grain single bevel 2 blade broad heads by steal force with 90 grain stainless steal inserts. i shot her at 25 yards broad side broke 2 ribs on exit and sunk 3/4 of the way into the ground. doe ran 30 yards and crashed. the damage with this arrow set up is incredable! best part about it was i washed the arrow off and put it back in my quiver no damage what so ever!
> Hoyt carbon matrix
> 31 in draw 72 lbs
> ibo 334
> 566 grain hunting arrow @ 270 fps


Awesome good to hear easy animal recovery easy arrow recovery. : ) Perfect rinse and repeat.
Be smart Be safe Enjoy the Hunts


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## russinko79 (Aug 25, 2010)

Well sat i shot my doe by 645 on sunday i was tagged out with my buck by 730! not going to lie i know i got lucky...real lucky lol. same set up with the victory arrows steal force broad head ect. now for the story when the buck came in i was shaken like a beagal trying to pass a beech nut, i missed completly and that was on me buck fever to the max bc this was the biggest deer i had ever shot at with the bow. i was lucky enough that the first arrow didnt spook him so i knocked a 2nd arrow and plowed it right through the engine room quartering towrds me. perfect shot he ran off and i heard him crash over the hill. i quickly got down trying not to fall due to the fact i was still shaking even more so know bc i was so excited. i walked over to the spot the arrow should have been and nothing bc i knew he went down hard i knew he was done so i said f it ill look for it later. i got to him and saw the arrow still in him thought just the fletchings that was odd but didnt care bc of obvious reasons pulled the arrow out and stuck ut back in my quiver and took care of business. later on that day i was thinking about it and was like y didnt it pass all the way through.... so i inspected the arrow and broad head and remembered that the buck was following the rock wall. the arrow went through no prob it just didnt make it past the stupid rock that some ahole put there a long time ago and cost me 35 buck lol. a pic of the buck and damaged broad head


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I'd say that broadhead held up pretty damn good Al considering it hit a rock! If you weren't going to mount the arrow with the buck I know my KME could fix that and have it ready to kill again! Congrats brother! The doe you shot the day before didn't like that setup either! That's 4 deer now from this weekend between you my brother and Drew that all fell to the Steelforce single bevels and I didn't even get the oppurtunity to draw on anything yet! I had no shots Sunday...


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## russinko79 (Aug 25, 2010)

no she didnt but i tell u what i sure do lol. this set up is where its at bro thanks for twisting my arm even though u didnt have to twist to hard lol. Field point accuracy with a single bevel death blade!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

russinko79 said:


> no she didnt but i tell u what i sure do lol. this set up is where its at bro thanks for twisting my arm even though u didnt have to twist to hard lol. Field point accuracy with a single bevel death blade!!!


:jam::devil::rock::RockOn:


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

Congratulations.....and thanks for the props !!!!!
BY the way....the rubber band is ONLY to hold the cap on in the package......it does not align the broadhead etc., virtually all of the high spped issues we have are due to people using the orthodontic bands.
We may want to start a Steelforce Kill thread.......


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## russinko79 (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up. I will make sure to remove them from now on. 



> We may want to start a Steelforce Kill thread.......


 :thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

wow thats an impressive story...im so intrigued with single bevels right now its crazy....what sux is i'll have to switch arrows because my injexions 330 with a 43 grain vap outsert or 90 grain outsert plus a heavy head will be way too weak...may have to go back to axis!


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

boone hunter said:


> View attachment 1453185


what broadhead is that? it doesnt look like the ones on abowyer website?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Abowyer Bonehead


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

my bad, didnt know it was glue on


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## mackofalltrades (Nov 2, 2010)

Henro - whats up man.

Glad to see a HHS graduate around here...

Good luck this year. I haven't had a shot yet either for my EAB.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey what's up man. Good luck gettin out when you do!


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## mackofalltrades (Nov 2, 2010)

Been out twice. Seeing deer, but they need to be closer.

Nice thread. I've been reading it and it is convincing me to switch to a single bevel. New arrows with a higher FOC and weight will have to wait until I need more arrows. My wife apparently doesn't like it when I buy tons of new hunting gear!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mackofalltrades said:


> Been out twice. Seeing deer, but they need to be closer.
> 
> Nice thread. I've been reading it and it is convincing me to switch to a single bevel. New arrows with a higher FOC and weight will have to wait until I need more arrows. My wife apparently doesn't like it when I buy tons of new hunting gear!


I didn't even know you were married? Congrats lol. Yeah I spend WAY too much $$$ on hunting gear every year... It's like CRACK! lol If you ever got any questions about anything let me know.


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## mackofalltrades (Nov 2, 2010)

Married 2 years ago...living in Randolph now. Working locally at Picatinny.

And to get this back on topic, I got my EAB doe last night...










28-30 yard shot...she ran a max of 20 yards before piling up.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

nice job man


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

here ya go henro...got my helix 155's in the mail...easton injexion 330, vap 43 grain insert, nockturnal...total weight, 520 grains, foc only 11% but not bad for a heavier gpi arrow...this setup will be batting third behind my 2 gravediggers...call me shouldernuke jr.! j/k


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Leaving for Illinois tomorrow! Hope I can put a giant down with this setup! Wish me luck!


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Good luck bro.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Good luck bro.


Thanks! I've barely been able to get out this year. Can't wait to spend a full week straight in the woods... and during the peak of the rut... and in Illinois!!!


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

Shoot em up Henro.......from what I hear it is starting to get really good out there.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> Shoot em up Henro.......from what I hear it is starting to get really good out there.


Thanks Blake! Hoping to have a nice photo of a monster buck on the ground sliced up from a Steelforce broadhead!


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## 260972 (Jan 18, 2012)

paheadhunter said:


> One thing you could do to your g nocks for practice to have them the same weight as your nockturnals is to get some welding rod and cut it to the grains you need and glue them inside the hollow point of the nick. I did that with some x nocks the other year when I was shooting lighted nocks





I never thought of this!!!! I have been buying nockturnals for practice on my 60 powerflight arrows. After trying the FMJ dangerous game 250, ABS grizz stick 175, and el cheapo Easton Powerflights...I like the cheap powerflights the best. Not saying that I would take the Powerflights to Africa, but a great cheap shaft.

After trying the ABS heads, and reading Ashbys reports I decided to go with the original Abowyer 260 grain screw in made of carbon steel. Abowyer said if I bend any to send them back for a lifetime warranty like magnus!!! I also bought some brass 100 grain inserts from Three Rivers and am shooting them full length at about 723 grains. 

Wish I could get into the 250 VAPs someday but need to save up the $$$. I love this thread, and don't know how I did not see the nock tip!

These VAPs look awesome!!! I have been reading this post for a while but missed this tip on adding weight to the nocks to match the nocturnasl!!! Simple and effective,,,,Awesome!!!!


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## 260972 (Jan 18, 2012)

henro said:


> You need a .250 spine! Those arrows aren't even on the chart they're so weak with that setup! I'd be scared shooting them! Disregard that it says MR5 I switched all the equipment out to your specs. You can't just add a ton of head weight to get FOC. You have to have a stiffer shaft as you add more weight. Having proper spine is most critical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

pinwheel software...there is a trial version or you can buy it for 15 bucks i believe ...simple download just google it


hyperflite said:


> henro said:
> 
> 
> > You need a .250 spine! Those arrows aren't even on the chart they're so weak with that setup! I'd be scared shooting them! Disregard that it says MR5 I switched all the equipment out to your specs. You can't just add a ton of head weight to get FOC. You have to have a stiffer shaft as you add more weight. Having proper spine is most critical.
> ...


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## 260972 (Jan 18, 2012)

One thing to also note was that I found that 16awg speaker cable fits perfectly just inside an Easton G nock. Because of this I was able to cut some wire to fit in them and make them the exact same weight as my Nockturnal G nocks at 12.3gr.








[/QUOTE]

So simple I can't believe I did not think of this idea of adding weight to the stock nocks to equal the nockturnals. I don't want to hijack this thread, but does anyone know a thread link that experiments with this idea for the standard nocturnal S nocks and standard Easton nocks?


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## 260972 (Jan 18, 2012)

bambikiller said:


> pinwheel software...there is a trial version or you can buy it for 15 bucks i believe ...simple download just google it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 260972 (Jan 18, 2012)

henro said:


> Just finished footing up some of my recurve shafts. A 2216 shaft is what it took to fit over my Gold Tip Ted Nugent 5575's. I used a 2" piece and slid it right up to the end of the insert. The aluminum shaft weighed about 25gr raising total weight to 733gr and changed the FOC to 28.4% I think they look pretty cool now and should be very tough!



Love the footings you made...Awesome!!! I thought I have read this thread because of your familiar signature icon, and the VAPs...I remembers seeing your arrow build several times, but think it might have been in a different thread. Anyhow, some great stuff in here. Awesome post!!! I want to do this to my powerflight 300 as I see what happens to carbon arrows when you shoot them into concrete blocks without a footing. I bet 2219 will slid over my powerflight 300 arrows no problem, but the abowyer ferule on the head I shoot is not much bigger than the shaft.

DO YOU EVER HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH YOUR FOOTING and/or INSERT SLIDING OFF WITH THESE NUGENT GOLD TIPS THAT YOU MADE? 

Awesome job on these arrows, very impressive!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hyperflite said:


> Love the footings you made...Awesome!!! I thought I have read this thread because of your familiar signature icon, and the VAPs...I remembers seeing your arrow build several times, but think it might have been in a different thread. Anyhow, some great stuff in here. Awesome post!!! I want to do this to my powerflight 300 as I see what happens to carbon arrows when you shoot them into concrete blocks without a footing. I bet 2219 will slid over my powerflight 300 arrows no problem, but the abowyer ferule on the head I shoot is not much bigger than the shaft.
> 
> DO YOU EVER HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH YOUR FOOTING and/or INSERT SLIDING OFF WITH THESE NUGENT GOLD TIPS THAT YOU MADE?
> 
> Awesome job on these arrows, very impressive!!!


No issues as they're glued on with hot-melt glue.


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## 260972 (Jan 18, 2012)

henro said:


> No issues as they're glued on with hot-melt glue.


Nice, they look great!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

29" carbon to carbon clears the rest with this footing. It extends past the end of the insert inside the shaft 1/8-1/4". Testing for correct spine will follow in a few weeks as I'm finishing tuning of new strings. 











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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Damn I love that broadhead!


Coming soon... Sethro's Custom Paints


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Very nice!


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

sethro02 said:


> Damn I love that broadhead!
> 
> 
> Coming soon... Sethro's Custom Paints


Me too! Called to order some in 125 gr and Nick talked me lit of it.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Still need to fletch the shaft then I'll find the total weight and FOC.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> 29" carbon to carbon clears the rest with this footing. It extends past the end of the insert inside the shaft 1/8-1/4". Testing for correct spine will follow in a few weeks as I'm finishing tuning of new strings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That bh is a beast


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The broadheads are seriously tough as ****. The things I've shot em into and the negligible damage they've gotten has me super impressed. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Chrono should be back from repairs in a few days. Finished one arrow and weighed it. Here are the projected specs:



































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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Thats just overkill at it's best.nice job bro.


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## Th3hocker (Dec 25, 2012)

Cool build. I am shooting 512gr VAP's out my MR5 70#@30" little over 300 FPS generating 109# of KE. love the MR5 it shoots Re-bar at high velocity ....


also the F-nocks the VAPS come with are junk I was blowing them up left and right.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Got the chrono back this weekend from repairs and shot with my newly footed VAP which weigh 620.4gr and hit 261fps! That's heavy arrow weight efficiency! That would be 366.5fps ibo!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Has anybody else tried footing their VAP's yet? These things feel quite strong I gotta say. As long as the spine is stiff enough I think I'm going to build a dozen just for hunting and put them away.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Did some brief bare shaft shooting today with the footings and they show weak with the bare shaft hitting right of the fletched. I have bronchitis right now and feel like **** so I didn't adjust anything... This sucks though. I'll mess with it again in a week or so. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

0nepin said:


> No big deal bro ,just turn that bad ass bow down a little and you will be back to slapping bare shafts and flechted arrow again.or get a lighter broadhead.I hope you get better soon being sick sucks.


Thanks man. Neither were what I wanted to do... The bare shafts were really visibly kicking nock left right out of the bow. At 25 yards they were hitting probably 8-10" to the right of the fletched shafts. I'll repeat and try some adjustments when I'm feeling better. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Strings have settled and are now shooting a 617.3gr arrow at 261fps. FP are <1" below BH at 10yds with no rest adjustment. Thinking these shafts will be sufficiently stuff after tuning! 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)




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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I forgot to mention I only got to shoot at 10yds because this was last night. I think with the rest tweaking after I shoot at a longer distance I can tune these to hit the same POI...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Been real busy with work lately but finally got out to shoot field points vs broadhead poi...

The results speak for themselves! This is 25yds with no rest adjustment:


















Got penetration?









Very happy with this build now and can't wait to put it to the test this fall...


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

That thing is dialed in! Love those phatheads, I'm messing around with the 125's and they fly great and are tough as hell, I've killed with the 100's but not 125's. my gravediggers are always first up to bat but these are tempting for being "on deck".


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> That thing is dialed in! Love those phatheads, I'm messing around with the 125's and they fly great and are tough as hell, I've killed with the 100's but not 125's. my gravediggers are always first up to bat but these are tempting for being "on deck".


Thanks Seth. All I have to do before hunting season is dial in the pins and it's ready to slay. I don't know of many tougher heads out there than these 190gr's. The steel ferules hold up much better than the aluminum versions and the thicker all steel blade of the 190gr models is just super tough. The 145gr titanium single bevel blades are just as tough too. I really think the external footing is the answer to the VAP's insert issues.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

If anyone is looking for VAP V1 250 spine cut 27" carbon to carbon let me know as I probably have 2-3 dozen now that I can't use. Just ordered another dozen bare shafts from Jerry @ South Shore yesterday.


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## jessejamesNY (Dec 12, 2009)

henro said:


> If anyone is looking for VAP V1 250 spine cut 27" carbon to carbon let me know as I probably have 2-3 dozen now that I can't use. Just ordered another dozen bare shafts from Jerry @ South Shore yesterday.


sorry I may have missed something. Im trying to catch up on the thread. Why cant you use them?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jessejamesNY said:


> sorry I may have missed something. Im trying to catch up on the thread. Why cant you use them?


I'm using an external footing now and it can't sit on the rest when I draw back because it makes for erratic flight so I have to shoot a 29" shaft now to clear the rest. The 27" carbon to carbon shafts cleared just enough as they were.


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## jessejamesNY (Dec 12, 2009)

Gotcha I'm looking at building a similar setup (you inspired me) need the arrows a bit longer with my 30" draw. I'm currently shooting 27.5 and dangerously close to being too short or I'd take a dozen off your hands.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Remember to check the spine when you go to a longer shaft.


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## yeayea (Jul 9, 2013)

wow nice


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## jessejamesNY (Dec 12, 2009)

where would i be able to purchase the 145gr single bezel steel force phat head. I dont see it on the steel force website. The only ones i found were the longer traditional heads. Also whats pricing on them?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jessejamesNY said:


> where would i be able to purchase the 145gr single bezel steel force phat head. I dont see it on the steel force website. The only ones i found were the longer traditional heads. Also whats pricing on them?


Call them directly. Not easy to get them on the phone but great to deal with once you do.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Henro How'd that arrow do last year. i built something simular last yr. i used a GT Kinetic. Blew thru an elk but didn't hit any bone so not a real test. Anyway during leagues this winter VAP sent a test dozen to my dealer. We shot them and they out penetrated all the other arrows. Of course this got me thinking but 200$ a doz is pretty spendy for arrows so i don't know. I'll probably keep shooting what I have till I'm out then go w/ ultra thin dia. arrow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Henro How'd that arrow do last year. i built something simular last yr. i used a GT Kinetic. Blew thru an elk but didn't hit any bone so not a real test. Anyway during leagues this winter VAP sent a test dozen to my dealer. We shot them and they out penetrated all the other arrows. Of course this got me thinking but 200$ a doz is pretty spendy for arrows so i don't know. I'll probably keep shooting what I have till I'm out then go w/ ultra thin dia. arrow.


Got a new job last August and really didn't get to hunt much but killed 3 does. No major bone impact other than slicing through the spine on a small doe with 0 damage to the arrow and broadhead. These new footed arrows should be much tougher. I lost a little FOC due to the longer shaft but I'm still at 20% and have more total weight now so these hit the target harder. These shafts are worth the money imo. I hope to be able to put more time in this season.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

jessejamesNY said:


> where would i be able to purchase the 145gr single bezel steel force phat head. I dont see it on the steel force website. The only ones i found were the longer traditional heads. Also whats pricing on them?


Call and ask to speak to Nick the owner. He'll talk your ear off but is a wealth of knowledge. The single bevels are custom order but they are not much more than the double bevel. Be prepared for Nick to try to talk you out of the single bevels. He firmly believes the double bevel penetrates just as well as the single. Great broadheads. Everyone I know that shoots them has indicated they are a piece of cake to resharpen. I can't seem to get them back to factory sharp (which is scary sharp), but then again I suck at sharpening knives too.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

goathollow said:


> Call and ask to speak to Nick the owner. He'll talk your ear off but is a wealth of knowledge. The single bevels are custom order but they are not much more than the double bevel. Be prepared for Nick to try to talk you out of the single bevels. He firmly believes the double bevel penetrates just as well as the single. Great broadheads. Everyone I know that shoots them has indicated they are a piece of cake to resharpen. I can't seem to get them back to factory sharp (which is scary sharp), but then again I suck at sharpening knives too.


Sharpening IS a breeze. I use a KME broadhead sharpener and a Strop Block and it makes them even sharper than out of the box.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Been getting a lot of pm's regarding the build lately. If anyone has questions just post in here if you can't find the answer. No need to pm as someone else may have the same question. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just remeasured the FOC and realized I measured to the insert and not the end of the shaft like you're supposed to. It's actually 22.75%! 










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## jessejamesNY (Dec 12, 2009)

Here is my OT2 for a vap 250, 93gr SS penetrator insert, nockturnal g, FFP 360 xtreme fletching. Shows my spine is good but Im a little surprised at the speed difference between my calc and yours Henro. I have 1 inch longer draw but 5 lbs less draw weight. The Original Monster and the MR5 ibo speeds arent terribly different. Not sure why the almost 30fps difference on the calc (your calc from page 1 that is)









**Edit upon further review your arrow shaft was much shorter than mine on the initial OT2 screenshot you posted. Im a bit afraid that the speed may leave a little to be desired.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jessejamesNY said:


> Here is my OT2 for a vap 250, 93gr SS penetrator insert, nockturnal g, FFP 360 xtreme fletching. Shows my spine is good but Im a little surprised at the speed difference between my calc and yours Henro. I have 1 inch longer draw but 5 lbs less draw weight. The Original Monster and the MR5 ibo speeds arent terribly different. Not sure why the almost 30fps difference on the calc (your calc from page 1 that is)
> 
> View attachment 1718116
> 
> ...


What bow do you have? Monster 6? Little less than 10fps difference slower ibo vs the mr5. Your draw length will give you 10fps more but 5lb less draw weight will cut 10fps off. OT2's speed calculations have never been accurate for me. I use a chrono to check speed then plug in the numbers into the calibrations part of OT2 to get the most accurate spine recommendation. Above all else you still need to verify spine by shooting field points and fixed heads as well as bare shaft tuning. 


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## jessejamesNY (Dec 12, 2009)

The original monster ibo 353.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jessejamesNY said:


> The original monster ibo 353.


Also remember you'll gain efficiency as arrow weight increases. You'll see it only on a chrono in real life, the calculators cannot factor for it. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Got some work to do on the bitz but damn these shafts look tough! Anybody foot their VAP's yet?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

An arrow that Dr Ashby would be "proud of", would HAVE TO weigh at least 650 grains, AND have an FOC% at or above 30%.

​Who has built such an arrow?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> An arrow that Dr Ashby would be "proud of" would HAVE TO weigh at least 650 grains, AND have an FOC% above 30%.
> 
> ​Who has built such an arrow?


Read the thread I already covered that.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

henro said:


> Read the thread I already covered that.


 The thread is 11 pages long. Narrow it down for me.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> The thread is 11 pages long. Narrow it down for me.


Why come into an 11 page thread without reading it? 

Btw Ashby never said all his points HAD TO to be met. That wasnt his point of writing all his studies. He stated that the more ideas you take and apply to your own equipment, the more potential you'll have at building a better penetrating arrow.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

henro said:


> Why come into an 11 page thread without reading it?
> 
> Btw Ashby never said all his points HAD TO to be met. That wasnt his point of writing all his studies. He stated that the more ideas you take and apply to your own equipment, the more potential you'll have at building a better penetrating arrow.


 He has compiled a list of 12 penetration enhancing factors.

I do not believe that ANYBODY has yet built an arrow that meets all 12, that can also be used in a modern compound with a 28" DL, and a DW of 70# or more.

I find that ironic. 
If not downright humorous.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> He has compiled a list of 12 penetration enhancing factors.
> 
> I do not believe that ANYBODY has yet built an arrow that meets all 12, that can also be used in a modern compound with a 28" DL, and a DW of 70# or more.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm well aware of what he wrote as are most of the people who wrote and posted throughout this thread. It can be done but its a lot easier with a less aggressive bow than my MR5 at my 29"/70lbs. If I built a Nitro Stinger Game .200 spine shaft I bet it would be close if not successful with enough head weight. I just don't like the reviews I've heard of their build quality and I'm more than happy with the results of my current setup. I built a shaft for my recurve that came close. That's in this thread also.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> I think that I will.
> I know how.
> 
> And, it doesn't matter who the hell I am.


I already do to? My arrow now with a 300gr head is over 28% FOC. Take the footing off and chop it 2" for a 28" DL and it'll be over 30%. Use a bow with a lower IBO that can use a .300 spine and it'll be even higher. Who cares? Why come into my thread and give orders? Make your own and leave this one.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Back on topic... It is scary how perfectly these spin test after some minor adjustments... Another dozen to fletch and I'm done...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just bought a 1/2 dozen Black Eagle Carnivore LD .250 shafts to play with... Going to see how they like a 300gr Steel Force Single Bevel and possibly the same footing over their standard insert if needed...


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## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

Henro you should have tried the Rampages.....that way I can take your experiment and apply it to my arrows......I love the Rampages because of the smaller diameter. The Rampages in the .250 LD are a little heavier GPI compared to the other arrows they offer in .250 spine.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

snoman4 said:


> Henro you should have tried the Rampages.....that way I can take your experiment and apply it to my arrows......I love the Rampages because of the smaller diameter. The Rampages in the .250 LD are a little heavier GPI compared to the other arrows they offer in .250 spine.


I wanted to try something without the half insert/outsert. I also liked the lower gpi of the Carnivore for better FOC.


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## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

henro said:


> I wanted to try something without the half insert/outsert. I also liked the lower gpi of the Carnivore for better FOC.


Got you brother. You could use the 75 grain Brass Hits on the Rampages instead of the half certs. You could also use these 100 grainers for the axis ID arrows which the Rampage is....400 grains up front equals lots of FOC and a nice heavy arrow...

http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=0255X


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

snoman4 said:


> Got you brother. You could use the 75 grain Brass Hits on the Rampages instead of the half certs. You could also use these 100 grainers for the axis ID arrows which the Rampage is....400 grains up front equals lots of FOC and a nice heavy arrow...
> 
> http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=0255X


Too much weight as it will weaken the shaft too much for my bow. Also, the ferrule on my broadheads is 5/16" so this shaft will still be skinnier than the shaft which will give it the extra penetration potential Ashby talked about. .3125 ferrule diameter vs. .303 shaft diameter. Plus if this spines out right like it should, I'll be able to use a true 3-1 head. The 300gr heads are awesome. I've used them with the recurve arrows.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Second guessing myself I might actually cancel the order. Don't feel like adjusting the rest back and forth for the different shaft diameter.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After reading this article (http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=226119&messages=4&CATEGORY=2) I am going to do a little more tinkering... Been trying to think of ways to add weight to reach 650gr without altering the dynamic spine... Weight tubes generally don't affect dynamic spine much and according to the article this weed wacker line fits just inside a VAP. We shall see... Ordered up the line from Sears so hopefully will see it in a week or so. Gonna have to sink it from the nock end as I glued up all my inserts already so hopefully they don't glue up before they slide all the way down.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

So as of now your still using steel outserts with footers right?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> So as of now your still using steel outserts with footers right?


Yeah that's not changing as the aluminum inserts aren't strong enough IMO.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I hate fletching arrows but damn these look good... Just waitin for the weed wacker line to come in for testing.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Those look sick


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## CPinWV (May 26, 2009)

sethro02 said:


> Those look sick


x2 !!!!!


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

I'm rocking some HT2 .300's w/ a 100 grain brass insert and 250 grain tusker broadheads (right bevel).

I'm at 625 at spine out PERFECTLY for 60 pound Z28 at 29".

28.17% FOC

Can't wait to let one loose!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Those look sick





CPinWV said:


> x2 !!!!!


Thanks guys! I love these wraps from Onestringer and they only weigh 5gr!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

lavazhole said:


> I'm rocking some HT2 .300's w/ a 100 grain brass insert and 250 grain tusker broadheads (right bevel).
> 
> I'm at 625 at spine out PERFECTLY for 60 pound Z28 at 29".
> 
> ...


Sounds devastating! How fast will your bow shoot them?


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

henro said:


> Sounds devastating! How fast will your bow shoot them?


A blistering 240ish fps.....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

lavazhole said:


> A blistering 240ish fps.....


Chrono'd?


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

henro said:


> Chrono'd?


Not yet will tonight!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

lavazhole said:


> Not yet will tonight!


Think you're gonna see its a bit lower.


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

225 and my pro chrono is 8 to 12 slow.

My pulse was reading 305 and on the fancy one at the shop it was 317.

Its ballpark and awesome....


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

Reweighed....610 grains


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Oooooh I hope these spine out right... Built 2 for testing broadhead vs field point. The weed wacker line fits snug inside the shaft but I put Goat Tuff Impact glue on the end anyway to lock it in. ~35gr only shed ~6fps of arrow speed! Gotta love heavy arrow efficiency!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Did some shooting with the internally footed 655gr arrows this weekend testing broadhead and field point poi. They seemed to be less forgiving to form error than before. I wouldn't say I was shooting my best that day so I do want to test again when I have time but these results weren't as tight(slapping shafts) or consistent compared to what I was able to achieve before I added the extra weight up front. Thinking this might've pushed the build over it's spine limits for my bow but I'm hoping I may have just been tired and the error was the shooter and not the arrow. I didn't have the broadhead to the same side of the field point on every shot so that may have been me.

These are the best groups I saw(bad ones were ~6":


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I should also note I have not touched the rest since shooting the 620gr arrows so with tweaking it _might_ resolve the issue as well.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> I should also note I have not touched the rest since shooting the 620gr arrows so with tweaking it _might_ resolve the issue as well.


did you try putting a piece of weed eater string in the nock and reshooting to see if it helped from possibly being too weak? I know its more weight but may be a quick thing to try


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> did you try putting a piece of weed eater string in the nock and reshooting to see if it helped from possibly being too weak? I know its more weight but may be a quick thing to try


That's a thought I had today too.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

That arrow setup is plain killer, wish everyone knew benefits of single bevel pros. You have to shoulder hunt this year and post a pic of the damage that causes, I'm talking straight up ground hunting so you can hit it right square in the joint, and nobody make an ethics comment about that either, watch and learn. Oh and film it too!???


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

If you shoulder hunt, you shall be called. "El shoulder le folder"


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

BowTechForever said:


> If you shoulder hunt, you shall be called. "El shoulder le folder"


Or shoulder exploder...650 grains 20% foc will be no problem at all, hell Henro go kill something bigger!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Lol I won't go shooting shoulders intentionally just to prove a point even though that's what this build is about. I may have a pig hunt coming in the spring though!


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Forget pigs it's elephant time!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BowTechForever said:


> Forget pigs it's elephant time!


I'd be building a 900-1000+ grain arrow for that...


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Well what are you waiting for ?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

$$$ for an elephant hunt? Lol


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

rogbo said:


> Hunted Africa in 2011 with a footed 600 fmj, 100 grain brass insert and a 250 grain vpa broadhead. 2" A&A fletching. 650 grains and 29+% FOC. Albeit out of a recurve. Not hard to build one at all. As for the Dr's perfect arrow....in my direct conversations with him he stated above else (tuning excluded, it's always#1) hit 650 grains. FOC considerations after that.


That's awesome you were able to meet him.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Tried putting a second footing of 2014 over the 1814 but it wouldn't fit. It did just slide over the SS insert.


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## jessejamesNY (Dec 12, 2009)

Should have listened to stay away from the aluminium penetrator 2 inserts. use mostly 3 arrows for practice. 50 shots through each. The inserts are totally bent. Dont even come close to spinning properly. No wonder my groups where so erradic lately. No time to get new ones either. Looks like Ill be entering the woods with 3 arrows


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I think I may have built a good design... This is after slicing a groundhog and hitting a rock. Busted the nock and bent the broadhead which blew me away but the insert held up with just a slight bend so it would've kept going on a deer.


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## 337088 (Sep 9, 2013)

It survived!!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

THEFOREVERMAN said:


> It survived!!!!


I have 3 of these sitting at home now from this season after shooting deer that all look the same... Unfortunately the ridges where I'm hunting are full of rocks and all 3 deer I shot this year were pass throughs and hit rocks underground lol. Can't blame the broadhead too much considering what they've hit. All of the inserts survived intact with the footings though.


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## 337088 (Sep 9, 2013)

I KNOW SOMETHING THAT WOULD WORK FOR YOUR SETUP... The Simmons sharks super wide and great for big bows!!

http://www.simmonssharks.com/broadheads.htm


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

have you done any torture testing on these bad boys yet? You need ply wood and metal. take one and just see what thatll blow through. That's an incredible set up and build. Glad you went with steelforce.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BowTechForever said:


> have you done any torture testing on these bad boys yet? You need ply wood and metal. take one and just see what thatll blow through. That's an incredible set up and build. Glad you went with steelforce.


Nah I shot through 2 or 3 deer this year and into rocks underground to prove the footing works. The heads are what bent, but considering the energy they we're carrying and what they already went through I'm pretty good with them.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I contacted Steelforce today to inquire about the possibility of a 190gr titanium blade version of the African Phathead. I spoke to Nick's wife who said she's not sure if it's feasible but will have him contact me back. She didn't know if they had tooling setup to do this. If it's possible I think it would be in a longer profile which I would like due to the titanium being lighter than the steel so more material would be needed. This would get it closer to the 3:1 profile. I'm not getting my hopes up though... The reason I asked was because I have 4 or so steel 190gr heads that the blade bent over on from hitting rocks last year after passing through the deer I shot.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

henro said:


> I contacted Steelforce today to inquire about the possibility of a 190gr titanium blade version of the African Phathead. I spoke to Nick's wife who said she's not sure if it's feasible but will have him contact me back. She didn't know if they had tooling setup to do this. If it's possible I think it would be in a longer profile which I would like due to the titanium being lighter than the steel so more material would be needed. This would get it closer to the 3:1 profile. I'm not getting my hopes up though... The reason I asked was because I have 4 or so steel 190gr heads that the blade bent over on from hitting rocks last year after passing through the deer I shot.


That would be sweet, but I'm thinking, with the force you're generating, your going to end up with similar results with the *Ti*. I think 3:1 would juice up

the overall penetration factor on your set-up… not that your lacking in that dept. :teeth:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> That would be sweet, but I'm thinking, with the force you're generating, your going to end up with similar results with the *Ti*. I think 3:1 would juice up
> 
> the overall penetration factor on your set-up… not that your lacking in that dept. :teeth:


Yeah the issue is there's nothing in the 190gr broadhead market in that true 3:1 ratio. I guess it just takes too much material using steel which brings the weight up higher and nobody has tried titanium.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Just finished reading the whole thread! Wow! That is a killer setup!!!

One question though, earlier in the thread you stated that the helix broadhead didn't impress you very much. I was just wondering why?

Thanks for taking the time to write this thread as you built the arrows!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Just finished reading the whole thread! Wow! That is a killer setup!!!
> 
> One question though, earlier in the thread you stated that the helix broadhead didn't impress you very much. I was just wondering why?
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to write this thread as you built the arrows!


I don't like how the blade angle changes and gets wider, instead of one straight fluid angle. That will impair penetration compared to no change in direction.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

No word back from Nick at Steelforce yet.


I was playing around yesterday with a new build idea I may try some time in the near future(too close to hunting season now). 

Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger Gold .225 Spine tapered shaft @ 8.75gpi
http://www.nitrostinger.com/store/store_product_detail.cfm?Product_ID=8

100gr Brass Inserts w/ an external footing
http://www.3riversarchery.com/Brass+Point+Inserts_i0255X_baseitem.html

UNI Bushing w/ Nockturnal G nocks(already have for the VAPs)
http://www.3riversarchery.com/UNI+Bushings_i0150X_baseitem.html

FFP-SK200 Vanes

Abowyer Stainless Screw On Brown Bear 260gr Single Bevel
http://abowyer.com/abowyer_stainless_screw_on_brown_bear.html

The build should be roughly 655gr with about 27-28% FOC(OT2 is usually low on estimate) and shoot in the low to mid 250fps range out of my MR5 at 70lbs. I'm not 100% sure I'll do it but it's a solid plan. I can't go any heavier with the VAPs because they don't have a stiffer spine option.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hey Henro i found out yesterday at the bow shop that Arrow Dynamics is the one that supposedly supplys abs with their shafts. If so they are the same shaft i am shooting only mine are from abs and marked way up lol


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Hey Henro i found at yesterday at the bow shop that Arrow Dynamics is the one that supposedly supplys abs with their shafts. If so they are the same shaft i am shooting only mine are from abs and marked way up lol


Really??? Interesting...


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ya we were looking in a traditional magazine and they are right next to each other and both are tapered and only two like it on the market that i know of and the guy at the shop said they supply abs with shafts. Now wether that is a fact or not who knows just what i heard?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ya i just looked on Arrow dynamics website and you can get a dozen arrows with components for about the price of 6 mades up arrows from abs


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

No ****... I guess the only difference is the spine options they both offer.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

henro said:


> No word back from Nick at Steelforce yet.
> 
> 
> I was playing around yesterday with a new build idea I may try some time in the near future(too close to hunting season now).
> ...


If you want , I'll be up at his place this week. I'll ask him anything you need. He does have sheets of titanium. It's not his normal 0.080. It's 0.100. I'll see what he says about a single bevel in 3:1 from those sheets.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BowTechForever said:


> If you want , I'll be up at his place this week. I'll ask him anything you need. He does have sheets of titanium. It's not his normal 0.080. It's 0.100. I'll see what he says about a single bevel in 3:1 from those sheets.


I'm looking for something specifically in 190gr. It doesn't have to be that profile if it's not possible but I'm hoping he'll build me something with Titanium to try compared to the steel .080 blades I have.

These are the heads I damaged last year, again these were after passing completely through deer and into the ground hitting rocks(top 4 are junked, bottom 3 might be salvageable):


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After speaking with Nick from Steelforce this morning I think I'm going to stick with this setup for this year again. Doesn't seem like there is much more in the way of options to get any tougher as these heads are .080 thickness 48-50RC hardness knife-grade stainless. Rocks are just going to have to continue to eat em as long as they're doing their job and passing through the animal already anyway. I already bought 3 new packs of them so I'm stocked up. Appreciated Nick taking time out of his day to talk to me on the phone for 15 minutes about the subject. He explained he could go up in RC hardness up to 60 but it would make the metal more brittle and has found the best durability to be in the 48-50 range they are now. Great company.:thumbs_up Ashby also stated he saw the best durability in the 49-55 range.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Placed the order today for a dozen Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger Gold's(.225 spine in 8.75gpi). Also bought all the hardware I'm gonna need for the build(100gr brass inserts, g nock uni bushings, 250gr field points, and a single XX75 2314 shaft for an external footing). I'll order fletching later if I decide not to shoot the Extreme FFP-360's I already have. The Abowyer 260gr broadheads I'll order later on after shooting these shafts for a bit. I'm already setup for this hunting season with my VAP's so this isn't going to change right now. I'm somewhat considering trying a Boss Hogg 3-pin setup as well so I may try them both at once when I make the change.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Have you looked at the VPA penetrators? I used them last year, and they are extremely well built. The head is one piece of metal. I went through a bunch of heads bending after I shot them at deer (tusker concord 190 gr and stingers), but the VPA's are a whole new level, IMO.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Have you looked at the VPA penetrators? I used them last year, and they are extremely well built. The head is one piece of metal. I went through a bunch of heads bending after I shot them at deer (tusker concord 190 gr and stingers), but the VPA's are a whole new level, IMO.


They're not available in single bevel so I'm not interested in them. I've contacted Ray but he has no interest in building single bevel heads anymore.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Ahh, I see. I tried to find some nice ones that weren't $100 (cough Ashby cough), but couldn't find ones that held up, so I tried the VPAs after hearing about how tough they were. It would be nice if they made a single bevel. 

Actually, I think Abowyer makes a nice single bevel, but they were about $60...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Ahh, I see. I tried to find some nice ones that weren't $100 (cough Ashby cough), but couldn't find ones that held up, so I tried the VPAs after hearing about how tough they were. It would be nice if they made a single bevel.
> 
> Actually, I think Abowyer makes a nice single bevel, but they were about $60...


Abowyer is the one's I plan on using. The Steelforce heads are definitely super tough but I'm looking for something with a little more weight and to get closer to the true 3:1 profile head, preferably in a screw-in version. I like the fact that the Brown Bear models are laser welded.


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## Jomas (Sep 20, 2008)

I would also like to get my hands on one of those VPA Penetrators. They look nice. I used the Ashby 315gn and Nanook 290gn heads, and to be frank, I was disappointed by their build quality. The Nanooks were good, but the Ashby heads had poor tolerances, each one being slightly different in length and some off center. For what they cost they should be impeccable. Two of the Ashby heads also broke, albeit after imbedded into a Cape buffalos and a crocodiles' spine. Thankfully on both occasions they were follow up shots just for testing. In those instances the tip of the head broke off. Both were on the end of 1000gn arrows, at around 10 yards.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Jomas said:


> I would also like to get my hands on one of those VPA Penetrators. They look nice. I used the Ashby 315gn and Nanook 290gn heads, and to be frank, I was disappointed by their build quality. The Nanooks were good, but the Ashby heads had poor tolerances, each one being slightly different in length and some off center. For what they cost they should be impeccable. Two of the Ashby heads also broke, albeit after imbedded into a Cape buffalos and a crocodiles' spine. Thankfully on both occasions they were follow up shots just for testing. In those instances the tip of the head broke off. Both were on the end of 1000gn arrows, at around 10 yards.


This is not the first time I've read about the Alaska Bowhunting broadheads quality being poor. This thread showed the same results you've spoke of: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1607099. From speaking with Nick from Steelforce, he stated the rockwell hardness on AB's heads is too high causing them to be too hard/brittle which causes them to break like seen and mentioned.

What did your bow and arrow build consist of with the 1000gr arrow btw?


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I haven't got my hands on those heads, but the VPA's are tanks.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Henro I want you to shoot a helix, just try it bro. In all my testing that blade angle does not hinder penetration at all and they are holding up better than most broadheads. I'll send you one


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

It's splitting 2.5" solid bone and penetrating 18" with 450 grains.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Henro I want you to shoot a helix, just try it bro. In all my testing that blade angle does not hinder penetration at all and they are holding up better than most broadheads. I'll send you one


Seth I appreciate the offer. I unfortunately won't have time to do much testing this year. I will barely be able to get out in the woods with my work schedule. I really only have 1 and a half days a week I'll be free to put towards hunting time when I can. I don't plan on being able to even test & tune with the new arrow build till months later unless I tag out early season fast.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> I haven't got my hands on those heads, but the VPA's are tanks.


Everything I've seen on the VPA's shows they are probably one of the best built heads on the market but I am set on shooting a single bevel and they won't make one...


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Seth I appreciate the offer. I unfortunately won't have time to do much testing this year. I will barely be able to get out in the woods with my work schedule. I really only have 1 and a half days a week I'll be free to put towards hunting time when I can. I don't plan on being able to even test & tune with the new arrow build till months later unless I tag out early season fast.


Yea I hear ya man...I was just busting your chops. Let me know if you ever wanna kill with one


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## Jacob Chapman (Mar 14, 2012)

I have a Mathews Z7 on the way, should be here today. 70# 28"

I will build a "ashby ish" setup for next year, i've always liked the benefits of the heavier arrows.

Could someone run some #'s for me?

Looking to hit as close to 650 grains as possible, without being less.

Looking at Abowyer javalina lite's (140 grains) with some of their titanium/steel adapters. Which shafts would work that use standard inserts? I'm not fond of the VAP outserts, haven't tried the steel ones but the aluminum ones were junk.

Also how do these heavy shafts with high foc fly for you sir? I live in Montana and it can get quite windy here once in a while (every other day haha)

Thanks!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Jacob Chapman said:


> I have a Mathews Z7 on the way, should be here today. 70# 28"
> 
> I will build a "ashby ish" setup for next year, i've always liked the benefits of the heavier arrows.
> 
> ...


You can download the trial version of OT2 free at pinwheelsoftware.com. I got tired of too many people asking me to build them arrows a long time ago sorry. The software isn't hard, anybody can figure it out. You have to make sure your precise with your information you input and don't skip anything they ask for. Any shaft with an insert will take the adapters. High FOC will help more with windy situations. I recommend doing some research on the subject.


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## Jacob Chapman (Mar 14, 2012)

Perfect, I didn't know there was a free trial version I will try and check that out today at work. 

I've looked around a whole lot, tough to find consistent info on archerytalk unfortunately. My own studies haven't been real productive as the VAP aluminum outserts are junk and I couldn't waste any more $ on trying the steel ones.


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## Jacob Chapman (Mar 14, 2012)

Lovely, my computer at work won't download the software


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Jacob Chapman said:


> Perfect, I didn't know there was a free trial version I will try and check that out today at work.
> 
> I've looked around a whole lot, tough to find consistent info on archerytalk unfortunately. My own studies haven't been real productive as the VAP aluminum outserts are junk and I couldn't waste any more $ on trying the steel ones.


The steel version is much stronger than the aluminum inserts. They need to be externally footed though to protect the shaft. I've posted how to do that in this thread, look back a few pages.


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## Jacob Chapman (Mar 14, 2012)

Yea I've been following along for quite a while now, like the looks of the arrow just had some bad experiences with their original outserts. I usually use JB Weld when installing footings, seems to work great and allows you to get them spinning perfectly before locking them in place. 

My only problem is that my bow came in yesterday and I won't have much time to get it setup, have access to the shop but no software at this point.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Watched two adult does drop in sight this weekend with the MR5/VAP/Steelforce setup! First one smoked at 20 yards and went 30, second one hit a little too far back as she turned when I released and she only went 50 yards. I watched her bed down for a bit, get up take a few steps and go back down for the last time. Single bevel doing it's job even on a bad hit. Both had great blood trails even though they weren't needed.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Nice man! Congrats! I'm jealous. Meat in the freezer! :RockOn:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Nice man! Congrats! I'm jealous. Meat in the freezer! :RockOn:


Thanks bud. I was out for antlers since this but haven't seen anything worth drawing on.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Nice job Henro. I would imagine with the one you hit a little bit back you got the starburst effect that Ashby talks about in the rotaional effects of a single bevel broad head. I still have thirteen more days before i get to hunt.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Nice job Henro. I would imagine with the one you hit a little bit back you got the starburst effect that Ashby talks about in the rotaional effects of a single bevel broad head. I still have thirteen more days before i get to hunt.


Yep it was a mess in there so I wasn't about to tear into it to look closer. Single bevel produced as advertised.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

All of the new build components have arrived minus the arrow shafts!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Forgot to share an email I had with Abowyer regarding their Carbon vs Stainless Brown Bear screw on heads:

Everyone here prefers the carbon heads over the stainless we have used in the past. The carbon heads can get and stay just as sharp, while maintaining some of their “flex” ability. What this means is if you miss or get a pass through and hit something like a rock, a carbon will flex so you can still slightly bend it back and your head is the same as new. The stainless will not flex. It will either stay perfectly straight or it will snap the tip off. That is just the nature of all stainless heads. That being said we did use a new grade of stainless in the batch I will be getting back in a few weeks, this should give us a bit of a mix between the flex and the rigidity of the stainless. Also if you are worried about rust with a carbon head I just coat the blade with chapstick or Vaseline. As long as water is not left to just sit on the heads rust should not be an issue.
Thanks for the interest,

Cody Bos
Abowyer Inc
616-677-5850

With his info I believe I'm going to order the carbon versions and maybe a pack of the new Stainless when they are back in stock.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I spoke to Cody from Abowyer again today as I was concerned about the ferrule outside diameter difference compared to the arrow shafts I'll be shooting. If the ferrule's outside diameter is at least 5% larger than the shaft's you will see on average 30% better penetration than a ferrule of equal OD to the shaft according to Ashby, and 40% greater than a shaft with a larger OD than the ferrule. The AD Nitro Stinger shafts I'll be shooting are 21/64" or .328125" outside diameter at weight tip end and he told me the Brown Bear broadhead ferrules have the same inside diameter and a .378" outside diameter which is a 15.2% difference. I'll be running about an inch of external footing with the 2314 aluminum that is 23/64" or .359375" outside diameter so it's still smaller than the ferrule and the shaft will be smaller still and then the shaft tapers down to 9/32" or .28125" at the nock end so these should be awesome.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I realize I typed my info backwards in the last post and wanted to clear it up... Stupid phones. If the shaft's OD is at least 5% smaller than the BH ferrule it shows a 10% average penetration gain. When the shaft diameter exceeds that of the ferrule, penetration is decreased by an average of 30%.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Still haven't received my shafts or been able to get in contact with Arrow Dynamics for an update... 

Bought a Boss Hogg in the classifieds though for the new build! I'm going to send it in and have it updated to a 4-pin head with all .010s from Spot Hogg. I think it'll be good to be able to dial in more precisely at long range with the heavy/slower arrows. I rarely have shots past 40yds where I hunt so I won't be adjusting very often in hunting situations.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

My new arrow shafts came in today! I ordered 2 dozen and received 26! Of course because I have OCD I had to start playing with them and checking some measurements. I even fletched one up with the new LCA Vane Master Pro. What a breeze that system is to use! Well worth the $$$ and made a very nice 2* helical fletch. 

After checking clearances with the rest and where the placement of the footing will be I found I can cut these at 28" carbon to carbon which puts them almost dead nuts in OT2 for spine. One thing I realized I messed up on is the aluminum shaft for the footing as it's not big enough. I'll need to run some numbers and see what else is out there. Measuring the OD with a caliper showed .3350". 

After building one complete shaft I have a total weight of 656gr! Just made it over the 650 mark! I found that a 1 3/16" footing will give me sufficient coverage roughly 1/2" past where the insert extends inside the shaft and cut this length off the aluminum arrow I have which weighed 10gr. I will spend more time later on building a few shafts and then start testing. I'm not moving my rest now during hunting season as its tuned to the VAP's. 

I'm glad I bought the brass inserts and bushing/g nock combo as the stock stuff looks like junk compared to them. The factory nocks are wider than the nock end of the shaft. 

I also have rough FOC numbers after putting together one shaft. With a 260gr field point(250gr + 2 5gr brass washers), the 10gr of footing and 100gr brass insert on a 28" carbon to carbon shaft with 3 FFP-360 Extremes, CB Uni Bushing and Nockturnal G nock the shaft has 27.3% FOC!

I also got the sight head back from Spot Hogg for the Boss. 

Here's some teaser pics for now:


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Looks like it should do some damage. was wanting around 550 gr for my next arrow build.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Damn that's a killer arrow. Almost 30% foc holy ****


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

That's a beast of an arrow


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I'm probably going to dial down the helical for the rest because you don't need much with the high FOC steering the front end and it'll rob less speed.


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## boone hunter (Mar 21, 2012)

SWEET! That arrows gonna hit like a freight train...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Well because I can't leave well enough alone I finished assembly on one shaft with hot melt glue on the insert so it's easily reversible when I figure out the footing... Using the brass washers to make up for the footing not being there and a lighted Nockturnal G nock my Mathews MR5 at 29" draw length and 71lbs shot this 656gr slug through the chrono at 254fps!!! That equates to .739 slug-fps Momentum and 93.88 ft/lbs of Kinetic Energy. She's QUIET with this build too just from shooting inside in a tight area. This shows an efficiency change from the 620gr VAP @ 262fps of 4.5gr/1fps. This was with no tuning or adjustments to the bow with it setup to shoot my Victory VAP .250s. I could see it will need some tuning with these shafts as the arrow was impacting with a left tail kick.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

After crunching some numbers I found I'll need a 2415 aluminum shaft for the external footing. The only brand I can find that has made one is Easton XX78 Supernaturals 2415's which it looks like are discontinued... Found 2 guys selling them on ebay so I bought a dozen. I'll try and dump the rest for cheap if I can as I only need 1 or 2.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Measured spine deflection with my Ram spine tester and the results are not what I paid for... I have another thread about the issues I had trying to order these shafts and now this... Here's the thread with the order issues.: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2331616. Don't know what I'm gonna do right now...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Well this build is now dead... See the customer service thread from the previous post.


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## Jacob Chapman (Mar 14, 2012)

Did you try and shoot the 2 that you had cut already by chance?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

No and I won't be.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Toying with another arrow build after having a HORRIFIC transaction with Arrow Dynamics: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2331616. I will not be dealing with another small fly by night company who have no morals or proper business ethics ever again. This time I'm considering going back to a company I've have had excellent personal customer service experiences with in Gold Tip. The new build will be based off the Kinetic Big Game 200 shafts which I've used in the past in .300 spine. I really wish they were a lighter gpi to keep the FOC up more but I've learned to go with quality that's available and not settle any longer at this point.

Here's the tentative build:
Kinetic Big Game .200 spine 29.5" carbon to carbon
Either Firenock AeroInsert-A SS 56gr plus additional 20-40gr or Full 75gr Brass Hit Insert(can't add weight to)
1.5-2.5" 2014 Aluminum Footing
260gr Abowyer Alaskan Brown Bear Screw-In
Trueflight 2" HP Shield cut feathers
Gold Tip Nock Bushing Large
Nockturnal G Nocks

This will put me at roughly 725-740gr depending on how much tip weight I run and how long a shaft I finally decide on. Should be roughly 245-250fps according to OT2 with ~25-26% FOC. 
2" Trueflight


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Could you try a heavy spined gold tip velocity? For the lower gpi. Was wanting to use them for my build next year, what are your thoughts?


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## joshbovaird (Aug 31, 2011)

You can get 100 grain brass hit inserts, I have them in my Black Eagle Rampages. Think I got them from 3 rivers


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

shaffer88 said:


> Could you try a heavy spined gold tip velocity? For the lower gpi. Was wanting to use them for my build next year, what are your thoughts?


They only go to .300 spine.



joshbovaird said:


> You can get 100 grain brass hit inserts, I have them in my Black Eagle Rampages. Think I got them from 3 rivers


Muzzy used to make them but don't any more.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

henro said:


> Toying with another arrow build after having a HORRIFIC transaction with Arrow Dynamics: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2331616. I will not be dealing with another small fly by night company who have no morals or proper business ethics ever again. This time I'm considering going back to a company I've have had excellent personal customer service experiences with in Gold Tip. The new build will be based off the Kinetic Big Game 200 shafts which I've used in the past in .300 spine. I really wish they were a lighter gpi to keep the FOC up more but I've learned to go with quality that's available and not settle any longer at this point.
> 
> Here's the tentative build:
> Kinetic Big Game .200 spine 29.5" carbon to carbon
> ...


I am sure you will be very happy with the Kinetic Big Game 200 from Gold Tip.
And their service is second to non. I have always gotten outstanding service from them.
I use the Kinetic Big Game 200 shafts myself and they are really strong and of outstanding quality.

I have not tried the Firenock AeroInsert-A SS. 
Can you add the screw in weights GT makes for their own inserts for the Kinetic arrows to the Firenock ones?

I plan to build new arrows for my Hoyt Nitrum 34 LD @80 when I get it and it would be nice to know


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

You can add weight with any system that is 8-32 threads including gold tip's.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks.
I am a bit limited where I live to get archery products, so I mostly depend on buying on the net and don't have the chance to see and test the products before I have bought them and got them shipped to me.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Norwegian Woods said:


> Thanks.
> I am a bit limited where I live to get archery products, so I mostly depend on buying on the net and don't have the chance to see and test the products before I have bought them and got them shipped to me.


I understand. I'm 50% Norwegian myself. [emoji106]


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## BuckKilla (Jun 11, 2003)

henro said:


> You can add weight with any system that is 8-32 threads including gold tip's.




Not true, not all inserts are threaded all the way to the back end, actaully most aren't.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BuckKilla said:


> Not true, not all inserts are threaded all the way to the back end, actaully most aren't.


I wasn't saying that. I was saying the Firenock inserts take any 8-32 thread screw on weight.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

henro said:


> I wasn't saying that. I was saying the Firenock inserts take any 8-32 thread screw on weight.


I understood what you meant 
What do you use to make footing for the Kinetic 200 Big Game?


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

henro said:


> They only go to .300 spine.
> 
> 
> 
> Muzzy used to make them but don't any more.


I'm using these in my .260 Axis arrows. http://www.3riversarchery.com/Brass+Point+Inserts_i0255X_baseitem.html


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## trapper.robi (Jul 9, 2011)

mikehoyme said:


> I'm using these in my .260 Axis arrows. http://www.3riversarchery.com/Brass+Point+Inserts_i0255X_baseitem.html


Are those HIT style brass 100 grains then?


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

trapper.robi said:


> Are those HIT style brass 100 grains then?


Yes, the "Beman MFX/Easton AXIS" inserts are 100 grain HIT inserts.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mikehoyme said:


> I'm using these in my .260 Axis arrows. http://www.3riversarchery.com/Brass+Point+Inserts_i0255X_baseitem.html


Ah I didn't even realize they listed Axis in their for the 100gr.


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## trapper.robi (Jul 9, 2011)

Well thats a game changer! I might have to start messing around!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

trapper.robi said:


> Well thats a game changer! I might have to start messing around!!


Especially $15/dozen vs $45/dozen for the Firenocks plus you need 2 dozen Gold Tip Kinetic FACT 20gr weights to be at same total mass.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

To be frank. You at be the perfect guy to utilize m Firenock target concept. I can zones the spine of an arrow. Case in point. A black eagle challenger of 350 spine can be Tri zines to 350, 250, and 180 spines in one shaft ad I can get each zone to be as long as short as you like. Each zine should be no less than 3.5" or longer with 2" transition zone. If you need 225 spine over all, what would you prefer the transition zone to be. It can be as light as 6.7 and as high as 30 grains per inches. With patented shoulder insert in 7000 series aluminum to brass to stainless. I was weight tune until our heart content.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Firenock said:


> To be frank. You at be the perfect guy to utilize m Firenock target concept. I can zones the spine of an arrow. Case in point. A black eagle challenger of 350 spine can be Tri zines to 350, 250, and 180 spines in one shaft ad I can get each zone to be as long as short as you like. Each zine should be no less than 3.5" or longer with 2" transition zone. If you need 225 spine over all, what would you prefer the transition zone to be. It can be as light as 6.7 and as high as 30 grains per inches. With patented shoulder insert in 7000 series aluminum to brass to stainless. I was weight tune until our heart content.


I'm not sure what any of that meant but please tell me more lol. Pictures help!

My goals are a strong accurate 650-750gr(prefer closer to 650) total mass hunting arrow with 25+% FOC(more the better especially 30+) spined properly for my Mathews MR5 @ 29"DL and ~70-72lbs. Outside shaft diameter needs to be 5% smaller than .378" which is ferrule diameter of my broad heads for the build. I'll be using a 260gr head. For reference the bow shoots a 656gr shaft at 254fps at 29"/71lbs.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Firenock said:


> To be frank. You at be the perfect guy to utilize m Firenock target concept. I can zones the spine of an arrow. Case in point. A black eagle challenger of 350 spine can be Tri zines to 350, 250, and 180 spines in one shaft ad I can get each zone to be as long as short as you like. Each zine should be no less than 3.5" or longer with 2" transition zone. If you need 225 spine over all, what would you prefer the transition zone to be. It can be as light as 6.7 and as high as 30 grains per inches. With patented shoulder insert in 7000 series aluminum to brass to stainless. I was weight tune until our heart content.


Find someone now you need to be assessed for stroke like symptoms. Can't understand the majority of this. Lol


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> Ah I didn't even realize they listed Axis in their for the 100gr.


I have these with 300 spine axis shafts. I shot it into a concrete wall to see how they would penetrate and hold up..From 25 yards it penetrated past the field tip...I unscrewed the shaft and it was not cracked at all... Flew perfectly.. Maybe it was luck..I don't know but I was amazed...


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Take a look at my AeroBolt, except I have shafts as long as 32" now


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I just bought a dozen Kinetic XT BG200s in classifieds today but I'll def give em a look.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Firenock said:


> Take a look at my AeroBolt, except I have shafts as long as 32" now


Ok so I looked over the aerobolt but I would have no clue how to build one to meet the specs that I need. At $75/3 I think they're gonna be way outta my price range as well.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Yikes only 300 a dozen!!!!


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Pocket change lmfao! Holy **** $75/3


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

If you are interested, the Aerobolt II-Dragon Slayer, full decked out; with Firenocks, they are $723.00 a dozen. They are the only legal off the shelf Arrow for many of the Africian BIG 5 game that is off the shelf. (i.e. no less than 1000 grains with the broadhead, bare shaft at 32 inches is about 890 grains with no nock, vanes, and point/broadhead. )


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Oooooo comes with broadheads sounds like a steal


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Firenock said:


> If you are interested, the Aerobolt II-Dragon Slayer, full decked out; with Firenocks, they are $723.00 a dozen. They are the only legal off the shelf Arrow for many of the Africian BIG 5 game that is off the shelf. (i.e. no less than 1000 grains with the broadhead, bare shaft at 32 inches is about 890 grains with no nock, vanes, and point/broadhead. )


Wow... Then again if you have the cash to hunt the African big 5 then $700 for arrows is chump change lol


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

At that price i bet they cant keep them on the shelves! LOL


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Firenock said:


> To be frank. You at be the perfect guy to utilize m Firenock target concept. I can zones the spine of an arrow. Case in point. A black eagle challenger of 350 spine can be Tri zines to 350, 250, and 180 spines in one shaft ad I can get each zone to be as long as short as you like. Each zine should be no less than 3.5" or longer with 2" transition zone. If you need 225 spine over all, what would you prefer the transition zone to be. It can be as light as 6.7 and as high as 30 grains per inches. With patented shoulder insert in 7000 series aluminum to brass to stainless. I was weight tune until our heart content.





henro said:


> Ok so I looked over the aerobolt but I would have no clue how to build one to meet the specs that I need. At $75/3 I think they're gonna be way outta my price range as well.


I'm not saying you can get some thing to work on the cheap, but,

10-12 dollars extra to have an arrow with custom spine and weight arrows tailored to your needs sounds reasonable to me.

It's a niche market anyway. I'm sure henro, you can attest to that.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I agree with that but with the Kinetic's being proven as you can see here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1730979 and the fact I picked up a dozen uncut XT's for $100 I can't justify the extra expense. I priced out components to build 2 dozen and it came in under $100 plus broadheads because I can use the Nockturnal G nocks with these using a mock bushing.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ordered all the components for the Kinetics.

Only thing left is broadheads. Called abowyer but line was dead or busy so I emailed them.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Here is the projected build specs using OnTarget2:








I need 27 1/8" from the throat of the nock to where the footing starts to clear my rest at full draw. This means that if I add a 2.5" external footer from Easton Eclipse X7 2014 @ 9.6gpi to protect the 100gr HIT insert I will need at least 29 5/16" carbon shaft length. I'll cut the shaft at 29.5" as long as the 2.5" footing is long enough to cover the insert and then 1/2" extra or so. This will give a total weight of ~750gr using 3-fletched 2" feathers @ 1.2gr each, Nockturnal G nocks @ 12.3gr and Gold Tip Large Kinetic nock bushing @ 7.4gr with a 100gr HIT brass insert and 260gr head. Based on the 4.5gr/1fps the bow was losing going from [email protected] to [email protected] it should chrono about 232-233fps, but possibly slightly higher due to gained efficiency. This is heavier and slower than I originally wanted to go but it should be spined great with this build and will hit like a truck. 

I also tried reaching Abowyer again today but got no answer on the phone.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Henro will adding a footing that when at full draw, sits on the rest, cause arrow flight issues as the arrow propels forward and the footing comes off the rest?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> Henro will adding a footing that when at full draw, sits on the rest, cause arrow flight issues as the arrow propels forward and the footing comes off the rest?


Yes as I found in testing when I first footed the VAP's. Flight became erratic and inconsistent.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

Henro, What happened to the VAP's? Your basically building my arrow only w/ a heavier BH. I've been shooting the 125 Helix. Arrow hits like a Mack truck. It's always in the dirt on the other side. Haven't hit the knuckle though. Nor do I want to. Good Luck.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Henro, What happened to the VAP's? Your basically building my arrow only w/ a heavier BH. I've been shooting the 125 Helix. Arrow hits like a Mack truck. It's always in the dirt on the other side. Haven't hit the knuckle though. Nor do I want to. Good Luck.


I'm shooting them currently this season but want to go to a broadhead with a higher mechanical advantage and go over the 650gr mark so I needed to get a stiffer spine. I'll have them listed for sale when this build is finished and the bow is retuned. I think I have about a dozen and a half .250s all footed and SS inserts.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Damn i was hoping you would tell me the opposite!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> Damn i was hoping you would tell me the opposite!


I was in the same boat and didn't realize till after I tested and had to sell all the shafts I had at the time because they were too short. Remember you'll be weakening the shaft by going longer, so make sure you bare shaft tune and broadhead tune to see if it's still spined correctly.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

I meant why are you changing? You built a a bad azz arrow. BTW did you find some 100 inserts? I found some at Archery Warehouse in Idaho I think.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

henro said:


> I was in the same boat and didn't realize till after I tested and had to sell all the shafts I had at the time because they were too short. Remember you'll be weakening the shaft by going longer, so make sure you bare shaft tune and broadhead tune to see if it's still spined correctly.


Yes, i just bought these 300 spine kinetics and cut 2 doz down to 1/2" past the rest. I hate having arrows stick out anymore. I was really hoping the footing wouldnt bother flight with expandables


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> I meant why are you changing? You built a a bad azz arrow. BTW did you find some 100 inserts? I found some at Archery Warehouse in Idaho I think.


Because I need the stiffer spine to accommodate the heavier broadhead. The short heads I have now are more prone to deflection but longer head with higher mechanical advantage will deflect less on bone. Although I have damaged a single shaft since footing the VAP's(couple inserts have slightly bent but shafts held together), I like the idea of the HIT footed better than the half outsert. I bought the 100gr brass HITs from 3Rivers. I also want the arrow to be over that 650gr mark Ashby talked about being so important and I can't add anymore weight to the VAPs as they're already marginally weak as is. The Kinetics in this build should be spined perfectly. 

I know I'm being overly critical and addressing issues that aren't really there but I figure I'm already balls deep in this project and might as well go all the way. Gotta make Ashby proud for all the haters lol.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> Yes, i just bought these 300 spine kinetics and cut 2 doz down to 1/2" past the rest. I hate having arrows stick out anymore. I was really hoping the footing wouldnt bother flight with expandables


Are you using a program like OT2 to figure out how long of a shaft you need or just cutting to the rest? That's not good if so as you're altering the dynamic spine as you change the length. Download OT2 if you don't have it.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

The bow is already tuned perfectly for the length im using now. I have OT2 but its on my laptop at the farm


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

I was just hoping that footing wouldnt bother flight. Maybe ill foot a couple and see how it affects fp and my 170 grain spitfites. Im not going as extreme as you. Carbon to carbon length is 26" ill run 20 grain nockturnals, a wrap, and 15 grains of fletching on the back. Then a 50 or 75 grain HIT insert, my 170 grain heads and 2-2.5" footing


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

henro said:


> Because I need the stiffer spine to accommodate the heavier broadhead. The short heads I have now are more prone to deflection but longer head with higher mechanical advantage will deflect less on bone. Although I have damaged a single shaft since footing the VAP's(couple inserts have slightly bent but shafts held together), I like the idea of the HIT footed better than the half outsert. I bought the 100gr brass HITs from 3Rivers. I also want the arrow to be over that 650gr mark Ashby talked about being so important and I can't add anymore weight to the VAPs as they're already marginally weak as is. The Kinetics in this build should be spined perfectly.
> 
> I know I'm being overly critical and addressing issues that aren't really there but I figure I'm already balls deep in this project and might as well go all the way. Gotta make Ashby proud for all the haters lol.


Weren't the other arrows working? That skinny arrow should have penetrated pretty dang good. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that much on a doz. arrows. You'll like the 200's. 1st doz. was a little tight for the 2014. A little light sanding and they slid right on. 2nd doz slid on w/ no problem. My problem is I can't keep a vane on them. I've tried different glues, methods etc. Eventually they fall off. Pisses me off because I've been fletching arrows for 30 yrs.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

LvToHunt said:


> Weren't the other arrows working? That skinny arrow should have penetrated pretty dang good. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that much on a doz. arrows. You'll like the 200's. 1st doz. was a little tight for the 2014. A little light sanding and they slid right on. 2nd doz slid on w/ no problem. My problem is I can't keep a vane on them. I've tried different glues, methods etc. Eventually they fall off. Pisses me off because I've been fletching arrows for 30 yrs.


Yeah like I said they were. I need stiffer spine now though. I've owned Kinetics before and never had issues fletching them?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> I was just hoping that footing wouldnt bother flight. Maybe ill foot a couple and see how it affects fp and my 170 grain spitfites. Im not going as extreme as you. Carbon to carbon length is 26" ill run 20 grain nockturnals, a wrap, and 15 grains of fletching on the back. Then a 50 or 75 grain HIT insert, my 170 grain heads and 2-2.5" footing


It wasn't just broadhead flight it was fp's too.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Took this 8pt yesterday with the Victory/Steelforce combo. Shot the buck at 15 yards broadside double lung and watched him crash 30-40 yards away. Arrow was buried up to the nock in the ground after slicing through ribs. Also attached a pic of how the head looked afterwards.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The Kinetic shafts also came in. They spine tested very uniform varying only between .207-.211. This shows what a quality company like Gold Tip can produce compared to the junk I had from Arrow Dynamics.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Looks like it! Congrats on the buck!


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm glad the Gold Tips worked out for you bro and congrats on your buck.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

shaffer88 said:


> Looks like it! Congrats on the buck!





TimmyZ7 said:


> I'm glad the Gold Tips worked out for you bro and congrats on your buck.


Thanks guys! It felt good to tag out when I had planned vacation time for it. Made it all worth it!

I'm still waiting for the inserts to arrive. That's all that's holding me up from getting a completed shaft built other than the broadheads. Abowyer did call me back and said they will be back in stock this week and will call me for the order. I'm going to get a 1/2 dozen stainless and a half dozen carbon. I did fletch up 3 arrows today.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Another difference with this build using the short 2" feathers is the fletch doesn't sit on the rest now at rest vs the 3.6" FFP-360 vanes. This wasn't an issue but I figured I would show it.


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## Gideon007 (Aug 16, 2012)

what inserts?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Gideon007 said:


> what inserts?


I ordered the 100gr brass HIT inserts from 3Rivers. They were supposed to be delivered today but didn't show. With Veteran's Day tomorrow I should see them Wednesday. Once I have them I can verify how long of a footing I will need then I can cut the shafts and get a final total weight and chrono.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Got my new arrows done yesterday. Victory hv 300 cut 26" long with 100 grain brass inserts and 170 grain heads. Went to dial em i. Today and these things flat shoot! I was shooting 5-6" groups at 60 yards. Total weight is only 500 grains but foc is right at 23%


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Nope. Ive never had an issue with the HV shafts even shooting 84 lbs snd never once had one break unless i missed the target and hit a cattle panel......oops


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Sorry I deleted my post, I missed the HV part and thought you said VAP's. Carbon shafts won't break normally on impacts with your targets, it's hard impact with deflection like hitting a bone that will cause it even with normal style inserts.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

henro said:


> I ordered the 100gr brass HIT inserts from 3Rivers. They were supposed to be delivered today but didn't show. With Veteran's Day tomorrow I should see them Wednesday. Once I have them I can verify how long of a footing I will need then I can cut the shafts and get a final total weight and chrono.


If they were sent by UPS then you could get them tomorrow. We're working. USPS isn't.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Haha no problem bro. Nice buck btw! Everyone always says ow the hvs are junk. Ive not had a single problem in the 4 years ive shot them. Used the same arrow/head to run through 5 deer last fall and its still perfect.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

lvtohunt said:


> if they were sent by ups then you could get them tomorrow. We're working. Usps isn't.


usps


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> Haha no problem bro. Nice buck btw! Everyone always says ow the hvs are junk. Ive not had a single problem in the 4 years ive shot them. Used the same arrow/head to run through 5 deer last fall and its still perfect.


Thank you! It was a great hunt as he was chasing a hot doe, pushing off some ballsy spikes and even made a rub. Yeah if I was building them vs. the VAP they would be the one I would choose as they don't use the half outsert design.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Inserts came in so I got to building a few shafts tonight. The 100gr brass insert installs 2.25" deep into the shaft so I kept the footing at 2.5" to cover the entire length of the insert and a 1/4" extra. 2.5" of Easton X7 Eclipse 2014 shaft weighed in at 24gr as expected. When configuring overall shaft length needed I forgot to add the extra length the nock bushing adds so I was able to cut the carbon shafts at 29.25"(I cut 4 so far) and still have 1/8" to clear the rest at full draw.









Finished arrow weight comes in at 752gr. I built 2 finished shafts and 2 without fletching for bareshaft tuning. Both finished shafts weigh exactly the same. Measured AMO FOC with a Nockturnal G nock and 250gr FP plus 10gr of brass washers comes in at 24.21% FOC. 4 shots through the chrono showed: 238-240-239-239 for an average of 239fps! This shows that the efficiency of gr per fps lost went up from 4.5gr/fps going from 620gr/262fps to 656gr/254fps to 6.53gr/fps since it only lost 15fps while adding 98gr! That would give the MR5 a calculated IBO of 386.3(29" DL and 71lb DW w/ 14gr on string)! Momentum calculates to 0.7995 and Kinetic Energy to 95.54!

The big surge of efficiency gain has me wondering if the speed with the Arrow Dynamics may been lower than it should've due to those junk shafts being very underspined as they are advertised wrong. An underspined shaft obviously flexes too much and cannot transfer all of the energy given from the bow. Using the difference from the 620gr VAP250 at 262fps to the 754gr Kinetic 200 at 239fps shows only 23fps lost while adding 134gr and gives an average of 5.83gr/fps lost. This makes much more sense. I can't wait to get some Abowyer broadheads ordered and start tuning!


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

This is very similar to what I have found.
When using stiff enough high quality arrows like the GT Kinetic, I loose much less speed than I thought I would when increasing the weight, and the energy goes way up.
I don't know how many times I have tried to explain to people that they don't lose as much trajectory going up in weight as they think.

I see that I have to order some brass inserts from 3RA so I don't need to add so many GT weights to get my arrows for my 80 lbs Nitrum LD where I want them 
Is it the brass inserts for Beman MFX/Easton AXIS you use?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yes that's the one you need. They are quality as well measuring right at 100gr.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks, sounds good


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Here's a pic of the inserts. They don't come with an install tool like the Easton 75gr brass inserts do. I don't know who makes these, if it's Easton or someone else outsourced for 3Rivers.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I just ordered a dozen and am looking forward to get my hands on them


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

They look great. Abowyers will look sick on the end of those shafts.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

"I don't know how many times I have tried to explain to people that they don't lose as much trajectory going up in weight as they think."

Bingo. I was super surprised that I could use my first pin from 0 to 25 yards with no more than a 2 inch over/under (with an old switchback and 65#'s). I am about 4-5 inches low at 30, and it starts dropping fast thereafter. 

I shoot the gold tip Kinetics with a 300 grain vpa penetrator up front. I have shot the same broadhead through 2 deer into the dirt this year, and both were still sharp. A couple minutes on the kme and back to shaving. 

Let us know how the Abowyers work out. They look like great heads.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> They look great. Abowyers will look sick on the end of those shafts.





jjwaldman21 said:


> "I don't know how many times I have tried to explain to people that they don't lose as much trajectory going up in weight as they think."
> 
> Bingo. I was super surprised that I could use my first pin from 0 to 25 yards with no more than a 2 inch over/under (with an old switchback and 65#'s). I am about 4-5 inches low at 30, and it starts dropping fast thereafter.
> 
> ...


Yeah I am really looking forward to shooting those heads. My buddy shoots them and they come wicked sharp out of the box. Also I've said it many times, I would be shooting VPA's if he would make them in single bevel but he will not.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mounted up the Boss Hogg today since I'm tagged out and will have plenty of time to retune and sight in with the new build. It's a lot heavier than the Hunter was at 12.1oz vs 8.3oz so the bow feels a bit more top heavy. I'm gonna try switching out one or both Harmonic Stabs for the Lite models to counter this and see if it helps. It does clear my loaded quiver which is good.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Good to see you're back on track henro! :thumbs_up

Sometimes you just gotta brush off the dirt, and keep moving forward.

Can we expect a shoulder grudge match once you get your arrows and bow straight? :RockOn:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Good to see you're back on track henro! :thumbs_up
> 
> Sometimes you just gotta brush off the dirt, and keep moving forward.
> 
> Can we expect a shoulder grudge match once you get your arrows and bow straight? :RockOn:


I still won't go aiming for it lol. I'm gonna see what I can do to get another shoulder to test though at some point. The VAP's footed still have something to prove as well.

Something else I'm curious to see is how my MR5 compares to other bows at the same draw weight and 29" draw. I can't believe how efficient it is with the heavy arrows!


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

This has really got me rethinking my 540 grain arrows, those efficiency gains are insane! Someone needs to come out with a sub .200 spine arrow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mikehoyme said:


> This has really got me rethinking my 540 grain arrows, those efficiency gains are insane! Someone needs to come out with a sub .200 spine arrow.


Back when I was shooting an arrow in that weight range I thought it was plenty as well and I didn't need anymore. I still had it stuck in my head that I had to shoot a specific speed to be acceptable to hunt. Posts 132 and 153 are where I described that setup in detail and how it failed me. I was still caught in speed somewhat at the time and didn't want to go heavier for fear of losing too much velocity. Once I actually built and shot the heavier shafts I realized how little you lose as you add more and how minute those changes in velocity affect your drop compared to how you would guess it to. The huge gain in momentum these heavy arrows have is awesome for penetration and they shed energy much slower compared to a light arrow.


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

henro said:


> Back when I was shooting an arrow in that weight range I thought it was plenty as well and I didn't need anymore. I still had it stuck in my head that I had to shoot a specific speed to be acceptable to hunt. Posts 132 and 153 are where I described that setup in detail and how it failed me. I was still caught in speed somewhat at the time and didn't want to go heavier for fear of losing too much velocity. Once I actually built and shot the heavier shafts I realized how little you lose as you add more and how minute those changes in velocity affect your drop compared to how you would guess it to. The huge gain in momentum these heavy arrows have is awesome for penetration and they shed energy much slower compared to a light arrow.


I went from 460 to 540 earlier this year, I love the way the 540s shoot. I'm really not all that concerned about speed, never gonna be a barn burner with a 27" draw, I just want momentum. I just wish there were more options for really stiff arrows out there, building high FOC with a 80# bow doesn't leave many options.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mikehoyme said:


> I went from 460 to 540 earlier this year, I love the way the 540s shoot. I'm really not all that concerned about speed, never gonna be a barn burner with a 27" draw, I just want momentum. I just wish there were more options for really stiff arrows out there, building high FOC with a 80# bow doesn't leave many options.


The Kinetic Big Game .200s should have plenty of spine for you with your shorter draw? What bow are you shooting? I'm giving up 10lbs of draw weight but have 2" of draw length more compared to you so that is the same amount of energy applied based on 1lb drawweight = 2fps and 1" of draw length = 10fps. Depending on the bow you shoot my MR5 is already 360IBO so only the Omen or Full Throttle has slightly more energy. Your advantage is that you can also cut the shafts shorter to keep them stiffer. You should have no issues building a higher FOC setup with these for yourself and keep it in the same weight range or lower depending on the head weight you add. Have you tried OnTarget2 or any of the programs to simulate arrow builds? You could probably build something like the VAP .250 I did and be in a lower weight range as well.


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

henro said:


> The Kinetic Big Game .200s should have plenty of spine for you with your shorter draw? What bow are you shooting? I'm giving up 10lbs of draw weight but have 2" of draw length more compared to you so that is the same amount of energy applied based on 1lb drawweight = 2fps and 1" of draw length = 10fps. Depending on the bow you shoot my MR5 is already 360IBO so only the Omen or Full Throttle has slightly more energy. Your advantage is that you can also cut the shafts shorter to keep them stiffer. You should have no issues building a higher FOC setup with these for yourself and keep it in the same weight range or lower depending on the head weight you add. Have you tried OnTarget2 or any of the programs to simulate arrow builds? You could probably build something like the VAP .250 I did and be in a lower weight range as well.


I play with OT2 all the time. I shoot a MR7, right now I am running .260 Axis with 100 grain inserts and 125 grain heads. I think I am around 18% FOC. Overall I am happy with my setup, but I know that I am nowhere near peak penetration potential and sense I'm an engineer I can never leave well enough alone. 

I am a bit of an Easton fanboy, but these .200 Kinetics have me thinking about making another move on my arrow setup.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mikehoyme said:


> I play with OT2 all the time. I shoot a MR7, right now I am running .260 Axis with 100 grain inserts and 125 grain heads. I think I am around 18% FOC. Overall I am happy with my setup, but I know that I am nowhere near peak penetration potential and sense I'm an engineer I can never leave well enough alone.
> 
> I am a bit of an Easton fanboy, but these .200 Kinetics have me thinking about making another move on my arrow setup.


Easton and Gold Tip are the 2 best arrow companies on the market IMO. I've used both for quite some time with great results. I think you'll like the Kinetic .200s because they are only .1gr heavier gpi than your Axis .260 shafts but obviously much stiffer so you can add more head weight.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

What are you using to foot your Kinetics?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Easton X7 Eclipse 2014. Lancaster sells them individually: http://www.lancasterarchery.com/easton-x7-eclipse-black-arrow-shaft.html.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Do you just glue it on with the same glue you would use for the insert?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeah I just use the same Goat Tuff GT Impact Glue I use for inserts. You can lightly sand the shaft if you want.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Also, do you think it matters that my kinetics are .275 OD while your 200s are .281?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Also, do you think it matters that my kinetics are .275 OD while your 200s are .281?


Yes it might matter. If you look back in the thread there's info somewhere on how to find the correct aluminum shaft you'll need.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Abowyer called me yesterday to take my order for the Alaska Brown Bear screw-in heads. I bought 3 carbon and 3 stainless to compare before I decide which I want to stay with. Cody said they are going to the laser welder next week then will be ready to ship.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

For anyone interested I'm selling my Victory VAP's: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2366415.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

henro said:


> Abowyer called me yesterday to take my order for the Alaska Brown Bear screw-in heads. I bought 3 carbon and 3 stainless to compare before I decide which I want to stay with. Cody said they are going to the laser welder next week then will be ready to ship.


I am looking forward to read what you think about them both.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Victory VAP build is still available for those interested I have 16: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2366415&highlight=henro.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2369697


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

shaffer88 said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2369697


Nice that'll help long draw people.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

henro said:


> Nice that'll help long draw people.


With that arrow, I can easily build myself the perfect Big Game arrow at 900-950 grains and 19% + foc.
Or a more all purpose arrow at around 750 grains and 13-14% foc.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

henro said:


> Nice that'll help long draw people.


Forgot you weren't gorilla arms type of guy


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

shaffer88 said:


> Forgot you weren't gorilla arms type of guy


Don't need it. I've shot 90lb bows but would never need that for hunting. At my draw and 70lbs with such a fast bow as the MR5 it's hard enough finding an arrow stiff enough in a lower gpi to create a high foc shaft without building a 8-900+ grain arrow. Ideally I would've wanted a shaft in .200-.225 in a lower gpi around 9-10 so I could add a lot of tip weight and be closer to 30% FOC and have a lower total mass. I'm very happy with the Kinetic build as I know it's all tough parts and hits all the goals I wanted.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I spoke to Abowyer again yesterday and they estimated its gonna be another 2 weeks for the heads. They said their vendor is holding them up getting the laser welding done.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I wonder why they never seem to have broadheads in stock.


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## Sammael55 (Mar 17, 2014)

paheadhunter said:


> One thing you could do to your g nocks for practice to have them the same weight as your nockturnals is to get some welding rod and cut it to the grains you need and glue them inside the hollow point of the nick. I did that with some x nocks the other year when I was shooting lighted nocks


great post!
(yeah I know im slow on this one)


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Let us know when those Abowyer broadheads come in.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Still have not heard from Abowyer as to when the broadheads will be ready. Ordered shorter draw mods for the MR5 as I'm tired of dealing with the bows draw being 3/4" longer than advertised. Did shoot bare shafts and fletched together which flew exactly alike so the arrows are perfect for the bow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ugh... Spoke to Abowyer today and the heads have been welded now but they said they will be about a week before they get heat treatment. Sounded like they may be a week away from shipping but I really have no clue... I did tell them today I wanted all Stainless, no Carbon Steel. 

I did order a pack of VPA 1 1/8" 250gr 2 blade heads and a pack of their Small Game Thumper 250gr heads. If I get the setup tuned soon I'll have something to hunt Winter Bow with at least until the Abowyer's arrive.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Sucks to have to wait so long


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Sucks to have to wait so long


I'm just glad it's not the scumbag from arrow dynamics I'm waiting on this time.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> I'm just glad it's not the scumbag from arrow dynamics I'm waiting on this time.


Lol that's funny


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just ordered 2 3-packs of Tusker Concorde 250gr RW single bevels as well. Can't hurt to try them at $20/3 and the vids in this link look like they might be pretty tough. 

http://www.braveheartarchery.us/tusker_broadheads.htm

If not I'll have them and the VPA heads to use for follow up & finishing shots if need be.


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## familyjules (Sep 30, 2014)

Some mothers do have em!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

familyjules said:


> Some mothers do have em!


Some mothers should've swallowed.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Just ordered 2 3-packs of Tusker Concorde 250gr RW single bevels as well. Can't hurt to try them at $20/3 and the vids in this link look like they might be pretty tough.
> 
> http://www.braveheartarchery.us/tusker_broadheads.htm
> 
> If not I'll have them and the VPA heads to use for follow up & finishing shots if need be.


Dude just buy helix! Don't worry about the blade angle change, they'll be the best flying fixed head you've ever shot. The 175 , 200, 225 are steel ferrule. I think I may just have to give you one so you won't have an excuse! Lol


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Dude just buy helix! Don't worry about the blade angle change, they'll be the best flying fixed head you've ever shot. The 175 , 200, 225 are steel ferrule. I think I may just have to give you one so you won't have an excuse! Lol


Seth I didn't buy any of these for my go to hunting head, more just as finishing shot heads since they're cheap.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Seth I didn't buy any of these for my go to hunting head, more just as finishing shot heads since they're cheap.


I know just giving you ****. Did you sell the phats yet?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> I know just giving you ****. Did you sell the phats yet?


Yup sold them and the VAP arrows.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Some goodies came in the mail today... VPA 250gr 1-1/8"


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## kasey karson (Dec 27, 2007)

What would a good arrow setup be for a bow that's [email protected]


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Some goodies came in the mail today... VPA 250gr 1-1/8"


Boo yah


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

kasey karson said:


> What would a good arrow setup be for a bow that's [email protected]


Depends on what's important to you in hunting, what you hunt, etc


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## kasey karson (Dec 27, 2007)

I was meaning for a heavy arrow setup. I use get 5575 now.


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## Arrcon (Feb 24, 2013)

Tagged for later


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

Very nice Henro! What size shaft did you use for the footing?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I listed all the specs on post #504. It's a 2014.

I might have to do a heads up test of the VPA vs the Abowyer and Tusker when I receive them at some point.

I also want to note the VPA heads spin flawlessly. 

I'm awaiting a reply from Ray at VPA as the 250gr Small Game Thumper heads I bought won't screw in far enough. It looks like the threads were cut too short. I've bought the 200gr versions before and didn't have an issue.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Was happy to hear from VPA today that they're going to send me a new pack of SGT heads and I don't have to send back the shorts. Great customer service.


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## thrust (Dec 1, 2013)

I just want to say "thanks" for such an informative and engaging thread.

Is there any reason you decided not to pursue the Black Eagle Carnivores? 

I'm looking to build an arrow based on this shaft for my 80lb. Obsession Phoenix. Right now, I've have .300 spine 29.5" Easton FMJ DG with a 75gr. HIT insert and 100gr. head. The total weight of these shafts is right around 660gr., but the FOC is low (although momentum is .75). 

I'm thinking Black Eagle Carnivores, .250 with 100gr. inserts and 100gr. or 145gr. heads.

Thoughts?


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Ill be running .250 carnivores next season from my 80lb LF2. 26.25" long, 300 grains up front, lighted nock, wrap, vanes. Should put me at around 600 grains and 20%+ FOC


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

thrust said:


> I just want to say "thanks" for such an informative and engaging thread.
> 
> Is there any reason you decided not to pursue the Black Eagle Carnivores?
> 
> ...


I would say that's a great choice to go to the carnivores. Especially 250's since your playing with the idea of 145 grain head along with your 100 grain insert. Are you going to foot them?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

thrust said:


> I just want to say "thanks" for such an informative and engaging thread.
> 
> Is there any reason you decided not to pursue the Black Eagle Carnivores?
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. The BE Carnivores would put me in the same situation as they're not stiff enough for what I wanted to do.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

sethro02 said:


> I would say that's a great choice to go to the carnivores. Especially 250's since your playing with the idea of 145 grain head along with your 100 grain insert. Are you going to foot them?


I meant to say rampages...they are same size as axis and fmj


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Thanks for that. The BE Carnivores would put me in the same situation as they're not stiff enough for what I wanted to do.


The rampages come in 150 spine, FYI. And they are small diameter. Going to check them out at ata


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> The rampages come in 150 spine, FYI. And they are small diameter. Going to check them out at ata


Too stiff and too high gpi for good FOC for my build. I needed a .200-.225 spine for what I wanted to do.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Anyone ever shoot simmons tree shark heads?


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

hunterhewi said:


> Anyone ever shoot simmons tree shark heads?


Yup 1 9/16 of carnage


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

I was thinking the 2" of carnage!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The Tusker Concorde 250gr single bevels arrived today. These heads do not come sharpened so you can set the bevel angle you desire. 










Next to a VPA for blade length/mechanical advantage comparison:


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

The Tusker looks a lot like a Grizzly except for the fact it has a brazed-on ferule where as the Grizzly ferule is formed into each piece of steel the BH is made from (2 pieces welded/brazed together). It will be interesting to read what your experience is like.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Rockyhud said:


> The Tusker looks a lot like a Grizzly except for the fact it has a brazed-on ferule where as the Grizzly ferule is formed into each piece of steel the BH is made from (2 pieces welded/brazed together). It will be interesting to read what your experience is like.


From just holding them I wouldn't say they're as tough as Abowyer's or VPA or Steelforce or Tuffhead that I've had personally, but for $20/3 they seem like a great deal. We shall see eventually.


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## River420Bottom (Jul 21, 2008)

hunterhewi said:


> Ill be running .250 carnivores next season from my 80lb LF2. 26.25" long, 300 grains up front, lighted nock, wrap, vanes. Should put me at around 600 grains and 20%+ FOC


building a similar arrow for my MR5 either.. 
Axis 260 or Rampage 250
100 Grain HIT inserts
100/125 gr head depending on spine
Footed long enough to cover the depth of the insert
estimated finished weight of 530-575 and 15% FOC depending on length and shaft selection..

BTW great thread henro, has given me a lot of insight, couldn't tell you how many times ive been through the pages of this already


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## River420Bottom (Jul 21, 2008)

My arrow build will be for a 29/70 MR5 like the beast in this thread but the reason for my heavy arrow/decent FOC @ 270-280fps is to push huge mechs through our PA and NY deer, first test will be on a hog though early this spring so I'll be sure to post results


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hoyt1021 said:


> My arrow build will be for a 29/70 MR5 like the beast in this thread but the reason for my heavy arrow/decent FOC @ 270-280fps is to push huge mechs through our PA and NY deer, first test will be on a hog though early this spring so I'll be sure to post results


You'll find out the hard way like I did, mechs suck.


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## River420Bottom (Jul 21, 2008)

henro said:


> You'll find out the hard way like I did, mechs suck.


Not going to lie the situation with the doe that made you switch worried me too, 556 gr fmj out of a Z7 and no exit, glad you had pics.. I'm hoping just by having the extra horsepower and sturdy mechanicals (is that possible?) I'll be able to push them through about anything but the knuckle dead on


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hoyt1021 said:


> Not going to lie the situation with the doe that made you switch worried me too, 556 gr fmj out of a Z7 and no exit, glad you had pics.. I'm hoping just by having the extra horsepower and sturdy mechanicals (is that possible?) I'll be able to push them through about anything but the knuckle dead on


Not a chance in hell of a difference.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> You'll find out the hard way like I did, mechs suck.


Disagree they have their place . 2 in through both shoulder one nuckle and pass through ... Easy on the mech bro . You like tiny 1 1/8 heads cool . But nothin wrong with building an arrow set up like this for big mech . That's what I did and works tremendously . And yes I know all about single bevel ect


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> Disagree they have their place . 2 in through both shoulder one nuckle and pass through ... Easy on the mech bro . You like tiny 1 1/8 heads cool . But nothin wrong with building an arrow set up like this for big mech . That's what I did and works tremendously . And yes I know all about single bevel ect


No where near the reliability of that happening compared to a fixed 2 blade head. You might've got lucky once or twice. This thread isn't about shooting mechs. It's about building an arrow how Ashby recommended which is what I'm doing.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> No where near the reliability of that happening compared to a fixed 2 blade head. You might've got lucky once or twice. This thread isn't about shooting mechs. It's about building an arrow how Ashby recommended which is what I'm doing.


Well going after thin skinned white tail with a 360 ibo bow .. 29/72 ... 550 grain I was able to get a pass through lengthwise through a deer with a rage digger ...Pass through on shoulders with hypo...And the other broadside this year my arrow is in outer space ... I do agree with you that a two blade single bevel is a higher chance . However I match my gear so that I shoot the largest head I can and consistantly get a pass through . Now if I was chasing rhino , buffalo , elk or moose . Sure I'd be slinging a helix or vpa all day . But for deer I don't see a point with my set up . No deer in the woods has slowe my arrow down . The lengthwise pass through with a rage digger . Entered behind shoulder and exited out the back ham breaking the leg bone bone . My arrow continued another 15 yds and burried in base of tree . What advantage would two blade head have had on that besides the blood trail was insane and the gaping wholes make for an extremely shot track job . 3 deer shot this year went a total of 75 yds combined .


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> No where near the reliability of that happening compared to a fixed 2 blade head. You might've got lucky once or twice. This thread isn't about shooting mechs. It's about building an arrow how Ashby recommended which is what I'm doing.


I get what this thread is about and enjoy reading it . Just outlandish comments like mech suck rubbed me the wrong way as they have their place


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Sharpened all the Tuskers today and weighed them as well as the VPA's. 

Tusker Concorde:
250, 248, 246, 244, 244, 244

VPA: 
254, 250, 248


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I should I probably took off more material in the first few Concorde's as I was learning where to get the bevel.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> I should I probably took off more material in the first few Concorde's as I was learning where to get the bevel.


Are you going to hunt with the vpas ? They are tanks


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> Are you going to hunt with the vpas ? They are tanks


Only as back ups, same with the Tuskers.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

No one ever used the tree sharks?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> No one ever used the tree sharks?


Try searching or ask in your thread: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2363699.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Retuned the bow today with MR-C.5 mods to get a true measured 29" draw length. Before it was coming in at almost 29-3/4" with MR-B mods. Chrono'd the bow with 744gr arrow(no lighter nock) at 70.2lbs peak weight(was 70.8 before) and shot a 234fps average. The ATA was long before at roughly 33-1/4" and is now shortened to 33-1/8". BH is same at 4-15/16" as it was before.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)




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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Nice! Did you get the abowyer broadheads in yet?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Nice! Did you get the abowyer broadheads in yet?


Still have not...

Just cut all the shafts down to 29" even and fletched them. Ordered the HIT epoxy for the inserts after doing some reading and everybody saying nothing holds stronger. Final weight is 750gr and 24.47% FOC with a Nockturnal.

1/4" shorter shaft length gained .26% FOC fwiw.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Wow today the good guy finally won something...

Just got a letter that I won the dispute for the full refund from Arrow Dynamics! Refresher for anybody ever considering doing business with them... DON'T!

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2331616


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

Well, congrats on your victory. Still too bad those shafts didn't work out. Could have been interesting to see how they would have compared to others. BTW, I bought a dozen GT Kinetic XT 200 shafts. Should be arriving Thursday. I've done some preliminary work with OT2 and looks like I can turn out a pretty decent combo using some 170-gr Grizzly El Grande broadheads I already have along with 125-gr steel screw-on adapters (295-gr combined), HIT inserts, 1.75" external footing, 3-fletch 3" shield cut feathers and GT Accu-tough nocks with 29" carbon-to-carbon shaft length, all together weighing about 687-gr with 24+% FOC. OT2 shows they will be slightly over spined by .04" so they should still work nicely.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Wow today the good guy finally won something...
> 
> Just got a letter that I won the dispute for the full refund from Arrow Dynamics! Refresher for anybody ever considering doing business with them... DON'T!
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2331616


Awesome ... Good news that guys a crook


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

That was some shady business.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeah I can't believe somebody can act like that as a business owner in this day and age... I hope I saved as many people as possible the headaches of having to deal with his bs.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just spoke to Abowyer today. The heads have returned from their heat treatment and are being tested for correct tolerances. They hope to ship Monday or Tuesday. I added 1 pack of Carbon to the 2 packs of Stainless heads I already ordered. Can't wait! They said that they should be in supply for some time now as they had a batch done of about 600.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

*How to easily set a 25-degree single bevel edge and sharpen it*



henro said:


> I should I probably took off more material in the first few Concorde's as I was learning where to get the bevel.


For those considering single bevel BHs but not so sure they want to tackle the job of setting the angle and sharpening them I thought I'd pass along some knowledge I found (from the tradgang.com forums) that really made the job of setting the correct angle, getting a quick, pretty sharp edge AND doing the same for the tanto tip. A disclaimer is warranted here. If you're not skilled and experienced with electrical sanders or a table saw and know NOT to force the tools to do more work than they're capable of and know how to safely use them, do not attempt this project and use some other methods such as a hand-held metal file as many others have done and do today.

As this post has several photos to give a better impression the process I will make several posts to provide all the info, but it's worth reading for anyone thinking about doing this and looking for an easier way that also produces a more precise bevel and is very repeatable. So, on to the process. BTW, the original poster on tradgang used an electric sanding disk, which I don't have, so I came up with a variation, using my table saw, that worked just as well. For my sanding disk I bought a 7" plywood cutting blade and ground off the teeth using my high speed angle grinder. The teeth on this disk are quite short, much like you see on a hand-held saw, so there isn't much material that needs to be removed to make the metal backing for the sandpaper you'll glue to it.

Initially I mounted the disk in a bench vice so I could control how much material it ground off around the edge, moving the disk around in the vice until I got a pretty uniform ground off edge. Then I mounted the disk in my table saw, and lightly touched up the edge with a metal file, using very light pressure to engage the file against the spinning disk so I could get a near perfect round disk without any cutting teeth. I set the file down on the table surface so it was easier to control its position and how much pressure was applied. Just be very careful with this step - you don't want the file to grab the disk as it could be pulled from your grasp and possibly cause person injury of damage to nearby objects if it goes flying out of control. Just get a firm grip on the file and take your time finishing the outer edge. I highly recommend wearing leather work gloves to hold the file so you can grip it better and to protect your hands.

I then glued a 180 or 200 grit round sandpaper disk (I forget which since doing this quite some time ago) to the newly formed metal disk, centering the sandpaper on the disk's arbor hole then cutting the excess sandpaper from the outer edge. Make sure you get the sandpaper glued down with no air bubbles or wrinkles in its surface. The sanding disk is now mounted to the table saw and ready to make the edge setting and sharpening process easy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those that are sharpening challenged like me, here’s a basic jig I made to change the Grizzly's grind angle to 25 degrees as Dr. Ashby recommends. Cut a 2x4 off on a table saw to 25 degrees. Trace the blade with one angle flush and chisel out some relief for the ferrule to sit flush. Then position half of a 2" hinge so the screw holes will clear the blade and mark the holes. Then drill for 2 threaded inserts from Lowes or Home Depot and get appropriate size round head machine screws. Below is the jig from a couple of angles.

Editor's NOTE: I used T-Nuts for the threaded inserts mentioned by the tradgang poster. These have 3 prongs that bury into the wood to keep it from spinning when torque is applied. Also, for those wondering why use a hinge half, the round portion provides a fulcrum for the hinge to be able to stay in the same position yet allows for "tuning" how much clamping pressure is applied next to the broadhead ferule when tightening the screws.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

*How to easily set a 25-degree single bevel edge and sharpen it - continued*

With the wood jig block formed and ready to use lightly clamp the broadhead with the ferule nested into the relief cutout so the blades sit flat against the surfaces on both sides of the cutout. Position the blade flush with the bottom edge. I place the blade flush with the sanding disk and adjust the miter so it is flat to the side. Helps keep it aligned.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

*How to easily set a 25-degree single bevel edge and sharpen it - continued*

Turn on the disc and feed it slowly a little at a time so not to overheat it, until you've cut an even edge. I keep a small spray bottle filled with cold water nearby so I can spray it immediately after running the broadhead against the sandpaper to cool it down quickly, preserving the original temper.

NOTE: When running the broadhead against the sander/sandpaper apply very light pressure and make sure the entire length of the broadhead's edge is in contact with the sander/sandpaper in order to maintain a straight edge.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

*How to easily set a 25-degree single bevel edge and sharpen it - continued*

And "Voila". You now have a 25-degree edge angle. Remove the broadhead, flip it over so the other edge is now positioned at the lower edge of the jig and repeat the sanding process. Remember, do this a little at a time so the edge doesn't get overheated and use the spray bottle with cold water fairly often to ensure it doesn't. You can even make a little angle guide to help re-do/form the proper angle for the tanto tip.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

I then use a Lanski knife sharpener for final dressing and polishing of the edge, using the fine finish stones to touch up the edges. The photos below show what the finished edge and a super sharp edge with mirror polish can/should look like. These long cutting edges, along with the latest recommendation from Dr Ashby (for setting an edge on tips opposite the main beveled edge to enhance the tip's ability to bite into bone when contacted at a angle instead of broadside), will produce a very lethal and strong single bevel broadhead. If you look closely at the tip in the first photo you can see the beveled edge, set at about a 40-degree angle to the plane of the blade, which is the enhanced tip edge. You can also see this in the last photo, showing a Grizzly BH I accidentally shot into a pressure treated 2x6 fence rail when shooting at my rather small 3-D target from 50 yards. This particular BH sustained absolutely no damage, as did the shaft, except for a small ding in the BH edge that contacted the fence wire.

Tanto tips have significant advantages over both needle points and chisel points. The first and best known advantage is that a tanto greatly increases the strength of the tip and prevents the tip from curling over on bone hits. A chisel tip also shares this advantage over a straight needle point.

The advantage that a sharpened tanto has over both needle points and chisel points is it's resistance to skip off of bone, particularly on angle shots. In order to take full advantage of the tanto it's important that the tip remains sharply pointed. A lot of traditional (recurve and long bow) shooters used to single bevel the tanto from the same side as the main blade bevel but, Dr. Ashby's testing found that this configuration was the most likely to skip off bone on anything other than broadside shots.

To test the effective skip resistance of a sharpened tanto, lightly touch the tip to your thumbnail at a fairly low angle... it should dig in rather than skip across your nail, even when slowly rotated. If it digs into your nail, then it will dig into any bone just the same way.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

henro said:


> The Kinetic Big Game .200s should have plenty of spine for you with your shorter draw? What bow are you shooting? I'm giving up 10lbs of draw weight but have 2" of draw length more compared to you so that is the same amount of energy applied based on 1lb drawweight = 2fps and 1" of draw length = 10fps. Depending on the bow you shoot my MR5 is already 360IBO so only the Omen or Full Throttle has slightly more energy. Your advantage is that you can also cut the shafts shorter to keep them stiffer. You should have no issues building a higher FOC setup with these for yourself and keep it in the same weight range or lower depending on the head weight you add. Have you tried OnTarget2 or any of the programs to simulate arrow builds? You could probably build something like the VAP .250 I did and be in a lower weight range as well.


The APA M5 and 2015 King Cobra are also over 360IBO. The M5 is 368, and the King Cobra is '370+' as they put it...but the M5 is the one I'd choose with my 27" draw. 

I need to reread this entire thread again! It's been a month or so...and I didn't realize I wasn't subscribed. At my draw length though, using a 2014 Xcentric...a Black Eagle .250 is quite stiff. Per OT2 they end up being 601g, with 27.56% FoC, and I have to put 340g on the nose in order to make them come close to the correct spine. The same arrow with the APA King Cobra spines perfectly. Add lighted nocks and more tip weight, and it's still 27% FoC, and ends up being 640g. Speeds are still right below 250fps.

Anyhhow...I'll be looking forward to going through the thread again. I am making my own broadheads...which definitely helps in the experimentation department. Your results are definitely of interest.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I hate fletching arrows but damn these look mean and ready for business!


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Nice info on SB sharpening Rockyhud. :thumb:

Arrows look sweet, give em heck Henro! :RockOn:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Nice info on SB sharpening Rockyhud. :thumb:
> 
> Arrows look sweet, give em heck Henro! :RockOn:


Yes thank you Rockyhud that's a great write up!

Forty I can't wait to slap some Abowyer's on these. I'll be doing some bow drives next Friday so I'll get to try out the heads I have now until they come in. I have to sight in tomorrow morning.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Not sure what happened with the weight change but after redoing all inserts with the HIT epoxy final weight with a 260gr head is 742gr.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Didn't realize how blurry that pic was. Here's a better one.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

Very nice looking arsenal of arrows. I have a couple of questions. How long is the external footing and what vanes or feathers did you use? I'm about to start my Kinetic XT 200 build and will be using 3" Gateway shield cut feathers and thinking seriously about using the GT Accu-Tough in/outserts with external footing covering the full length of the outsert and extending at least .5" to maybe .75" beyond the end of the insert. I've read several posts around the net indicating most people have determined they're pretty strong and hold up to hard impacts well. I'm also going to use my Grizzly El Grande 170-gr broadheads with steel screw-on adapters.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Rockyhud very cool sharping tip.Thank you.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Rockyhud said:


> Very nice looking arsenal of arrows. I have a couple of questions. How long is the external footing and what vanes or feathers did you use? I'm about to start my Kinetic XT 200 build and will be using 3" Gateway shield cut feathers and thinking seriously about using the GT Accu-Tough in/outserts with external footing covering the full length of the outsert and extending at least .5" to maybe .75" beyond the end of the insert. I've read several posts around the net indicating most people have determined they're pretty strong and hold up to hard impacts well. I'm also going to use my Grizzly El Grande 170-gr broadheads with steel screw-on adapters.


2.5" of footing Trueflight 2" Shieldback.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

salmon killer said:


> Rockyhud very cool sharping tip.Thank you.


Glad you like it. This was just another way of my being able to payback for some of the help others have provided me over time. I've used this technique and it works quite well. Before this I tried using a hand held metal file on a few of my single bevel broadheads and had some success but using this jig made the whole process of setting a 25-degree bevel angle and a good initial cutting edge a whole lot easier and much more consistent. I've also found that once a good, smooth cutting edge has been established I can use a set of ceramic sharpening sticks to quickly hone the edges back to really sharp condition. The Rockwell hardness of Grizzly heads is about 52 which is just about optimal for strength, yet not so hard they are brittle and break instead of being just flexible enough to stay intact if/when hard bone is hit. They take a little time and effort to get the edges to be really sharp but they retain this edge pretty well and make it fairly easy to restore it.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

henro said:


> 2.5" of footing Trueflight 2" Shieldback.


Thanks. I thought the footing looked a little longer than what I installed on my Velocity XTs (1.75" of 2117 xx75 Gamegetter footing on them). That should really beef up the front end of your arrows. Looks like you got a pretty nice amount of helical twist on these feathers too.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Rockyhud said:


> Thanks. I thought the footing looked a little longer than what I installed on my Velocity XTs (1.75" of 2117 xx75 Gamegetter footing on them). That should really beef up the front end of your arrows. Looks like you got a pretty nice amount of helical twist on these feathers too.


Helical is set for 2*. The LCA Vane Master Pro does a great job of setting the helical.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

Pretty impressive jig. I little pricey for me but that doesn't diminish how good it is. Probably lives up to the saying you get what you pay for.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Rockyhud said:


> Pretty impressive jig. I little pricey for me but that doesn't diminish how good it is. Probably lives up to the saying you get what you pay for.


100%. I was weary of the cost too but after owning it my bitz will forever collect dust. Very easy to use and the non-stick arms are awesome! Highly highly recommend it.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ready for some bow drives this week! Forgot to add the lighted nocks back for total weight... Duh... 752gr with Nockturnals.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Nice set of arrows .


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Got my chrono back from my brother and shot two arrows of same weight after final tuneup. 748gr @ 236fps.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

That's pretty impressive


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## blevinsbulldog (Jan 4, 2014)

did you ever figure out anything with the one option of the 2 cam hard or ibo speed? It seems to come out to 2 different options.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

blevinsbulldog said:


> did you ever figure out anything with the one option of the 2 cam hard or ibo speed? It seems to come out to 2 different options.


What?


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## blevinsbulldog (Jan 4, 2014)

On the program there is a drop box on the left side that if I put my bow in the specs it picks 2 something cam. Or if you pick a Mathews creed it picks 1 cam. Or you have the option to pick ibo specs. In a post a whill back u said they were taking that option out but it's still there. If the 2 cam is picked vs the ibo spec, there is a difference in the spine on the arrow that needshe to be selected


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## blevinsbulldog (Jan 4, 2014)

its where you can pick "cam" 2camXhard


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I let the program choose the cam for the bow it has stored. I'm not sure what you're asking? The computer supplies the IBO info and cams and I just calibrate it based on my supplied specs from the chrono, pin gaps and other info it asks for.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

henro said:


> I let the program choose the cam for the bow it has stored. I'm not sure what you're asking? The computer supplies the IBO info and cams and I just calibrate it based on my supplied specs from the chrono, pin gaps and other info it asks for.


I see what he's saying.

When you load a bow...for example my Xpedition Xcentric...it shows '1Cam X-Hard' in the box (it also shows the bow as a binary...weird). At 27" draw length, and 62lbs draw weight...when you go to the spine page, it shows a .4001 spine being recommended. Now go back to the equipment page, and choose the option 'Use Mfg IBO' under the 'Cam Style' dropdown. Go back to the spine page, and it now recommends a .3922 spine. I always chose the 'Use Mfg IBO' option anyway...though I never knew it did that. To anyone else I'd say to use that option also, is it's safer to err on the side of a too stiff arrow I would think...if a .0079" difference in spine even matters.


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## blevinsbulldog (Jan 4, 2014)

That's exactly what I mean. If I choose to use the ibo spec instead it is a different spine arrow. Anybody know foe sure what is the correct way?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

blevinsbulldog said:


> That's exactly what I mean. If I choose to use the ibo spec instead it is a different spine arrow. Anybody know foe sure what is the correct way?


I've always read to do it the way I listed and enter as much info as you can provide in the calibration menu for the best accuracy. I've had no issues when doing this.

You're better off sending *[email protected]* a pm as he works for them and can answer your question.


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## blevinsbulldog (Jan 4, 2014)

Awesome...thank you very much.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

****s about to get real...









Just a refresher:









Close up of the welds:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

These should do ok...


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Abowyer single bevels have always intrigued me. I am planning to order up tomorrow.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

That's a mean head. How do they spin? 260gr is a beast makes my 180xl's look like toys.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Abowyer single bevels have always intrigued me. I am planning to order up tomorrow.


Tim you will not be disappointed I assure you. These things look TOUGH. 



Kaizoku said:


> That's a mean head. How do they spin? 260gr is a beast makes my 180xl's look like toys.


They spin true and come very sharp. I took a couple swipes on my stropblock and they're ready to go.

Average weight across my entire spread shown is 744gr with a 4gr variance at most.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

henro do you have a special hunt planed for those, that build is very stout arrow!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

salmon killer said:


> henro do you have a special hunt planed for those, that build is very stout arrow!


Nope. Anything that gets in the way of one of them is gonna feel special. This is my deer arrow. Hopefully go back to Illinois this year or next.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)




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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Final numbers are 746gr average @ 236fps with a field point and 234fps with an Abowyer. FOC with the Abowyer and a Nockturnal G nock is 24.26%. The mechanical advantage of this head is 2.33.

Gold Tip Kinetic XT Big Game 200 29" carbon to carbon(11.6gpi)
Gold Tip Kinetic Large Uni Nock Bushing (7.4gr)
Easton Eclipse X7 2014 2.5" External Footing(24gr)
3Rivers 100gr Brass HIT Inserts
Nockturnal G Nock (14gr)
Trueflight 2" Shield Back RW (1.2gr x 3)
Abowyer Screw-In Carbon & Stainless Brown Bear RW 260gr


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

For any interested, the Tissue Penetration Index formula from Ashby for this build is as follows:

Momentum x Mechanical Advantage x Shaft Drag(1.0 if shaft diameter smaller than ferrule, 0.9 is same, 0.6 is larger)= .781 x 2.33 x 1 = 1.81973


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Can you shoot them at longer distances for us


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Can you shoot them at longer distances for us


No I can't Seth I'm sorry... They nose dive and don't group well at long distances as I'm sure you've read here on many ArcheryTalk posts. Many guys have explained already that too much weight on the front causes poor flight characteristics despite them not having built and shot these themselves. They obviously are way too heavy to shoot past 20 yards so why bother. 


















I've already shot these arrows out to 40 yards last week and they grouped excellent just like my Victory VAP build. When I get time I'll shoot out further to probably 80+ and verify the BH group with FP.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> No I can't Seth I'm sorry... They nose dive and don't group well at long distances as I'm sure you've read here on many ArcheryTalk posts. Many guys have explained already that too much weight on the front causes poor flight characteristics despite them not having built and shot these themselves. They obviously are way too heavy to shoot past 20 yards so why bother.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This made my day !


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

But I want to see them doing front flips all the way to the target. They should fly like a hatchet ya know


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> But I want to see them doing front flips all the way to the target. They should fly like a hatchet ya know


You know Seth... After reading a lot of posts in the last few days from a few quite remarkably intelligent people here on ArcheryTalk I'm beginning to think these last 3 years have been a complete waste of time and money... These new technology single bevel heads combined with these terribly flying high FOC and dare I say... "obese" overweight extremely slow and poor flying arrows have brainwashed me... According to the post I've read I've just been buying into marketing hype all along. This Fred Ashby guy's been trying to sling me his company's products all along and I couldn't see the forest for the trees... Thank god for ArcheryTalk...


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> You know Seth... After reading a lot of posts in the last few days from a few quite remarkably intelligent people here on ArcheryTalk I'm beginning to think these last 3 years have been a complete waste of time and money... These new technology single bevel heads combined with these terribly flying high FOC and dare I say... "obese" overweight extremely slow and poor flying arrows have brainwashed me... According to the post I've read I've just been buying into marketing hype all along. This Fred Ashby guy's been trying to sling me his company's products all along and I couldn't see the forest for the trees... Thank god for ArcheryTalk...


The thing is I know who your talking about and this is the post of the night


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> The thing is I know who your talking about and this is the post of the night


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Yea Fred ashby's full of ***** man


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Yea Fred ashby's full of ***** man


Was it Fred Ashby or Ed Bear? Eh neither of them knew what they were talking about anyway. Buncha backyard bow pros...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Was just shooting at 10 yards inside today to see if Abowyer and field points were close before I go shoot outside at longer distances. Looks like the stainless blade is pretty damn tough. Shot the broadhead first and then the field point which hit the back of the blade. The single bevel edge on the back of the blade shaved off a piece of the field point and only took a small nick! It still spins fine too! I heard the whack and expected the worst. That's a lot of energy centered in that one point of impact and it held up!

It's the right group.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

henro said:


> Was just shooting at 10 yards inside today to see if Abowyer and field points were close before I go shoot outside at longer distances. Looks like the stainless blade is pretty damn tough. Shot the broadhead first and then the field point which hit the back of the blade. The single bevel edge on the back of the blade shaved off a piece of the field point and only took a small nick! It still spins fine too! I heard the whack and expected the worst. That's a lot of energy centered in that one point of impact and it held up!
> 
> It's the right group.


The higher hardness of the stainess (their stainless is like 4pts harder than their carbon yes?) let it chip rather than deform. That's also why it slivered the field point.

Good stuff .

I'm going to be doing similar broadheads out of W2 carbon for my own use. I'll probably be using german kinetic ferrules to adapt them though (I don't think the strickland ferrules will be strong enough). I plan on an edge hardness around 58-60HRC...with a spine hardness around 53-55HRC. Should be fun. Who knows...if I get a wild hair, I may send you a few to mess with. Your thread here was the inspiration for me making them lol.


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## josh_bovaird (Sep 17, 2010)

Pretty impressive arrow, I built a hunting arrow for my 80# Pheonix, so far I've got some BE Rampage 250s with 100 grain brass inserts and 125 grain head at 560 grains. After seeing your new arrow and black eagle coming out with a 150 spine arrow the old brain is spinning. Do you think it will still cart wheel out of a 80# bow?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Cris Anderson said:


> The higher hardness of the stainess (their stainless is like 4pts harder than their carbon yes?) let it chip rather than deform. That's also why it slivered the field point.
> 
> Good stuff .
> 
> I'm going to be doing similar broadheads out of W2 carbon for my own use. I'll probably be using german kinetic ferrules to adapt them though (I don't think the strickland ferrules will be strong enough). I plan on an edge hardness around 58-60HRC...with a spine hardness around 53-55HRC. Should be fun. Who knows...if I get a wild hair, I may send you a few to mess with. Your thread here was the inspiration for me making them lol.


That's too high RC according to Ashby's findings and will make them too brittle. I believe he stated optimum was 50-54. There's a fine line to run them between being prone to bend and to break and should slightly favor the head to chip instead of bend. A good example of heads that are too high RC are the alaskabowhunting heads like their Ashby 315gr model. Look at people who've tested or hunted with them, you'll see the same finding of them breaking much worse than they should. Nick from Steelforce first pointed that out to me. This thread showed it: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1607099.


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## monsterbuckrick (Aug 14, 2009)

Good thread. I started building my own arrows to get the best flight and heaviest arrow for different types of hunting. I currently use an Easton Axis 30", dl 31", German Kinetic 125XL at 510gr. for whitetails out to 60 yds using an Elite Pure at 71 lbs. 2nd is an Alaskan 30", 31" dl using 160 gr. broadhead (3 different types) @ 640gr., using an Elite Pure @ 72.4lbs, out to 50 yds. For larger game and Ohio whitetails. The bucks I hunt in Ohio are all over 200 lbs dressed and very tough. This year I will be setting one up between 550gr and 600gr.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

henro said:


> That's too high RC according to Ashby's findings and will make them too brittle. I believe he stated optimum was 50-54. There's a fine line to run them between being prone to bend and to break and should slightly favor the head to chip instead of bend. A good example of heads that are too high RC are the alaskabowhunting heads like their Ashby 315gr model. Look at people who've tested or hunted with them, you'll see the same finding of them breaking much worse than they should. Nick from Steelforce first pointed that out to me. This thread showed it: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1607099.


I agree completely...however, my blades are all differentially hardened. Only the outside 1/8"-3/16" or so will be that hard. The 'body' of the blade will be much softer for durability (think Japanese swords) and shock absorption. Also, steel quality as well as the actual heat treat process plays a large part in durability. I don't want to drag your thread down with metallurgy mumbo jumbo...but carbide refinement is of CRITICAL importance when it comes to 'chippiness' in hardened steel. My kitchen knives for example...are .002" behind the edge (read: less than paper thin) with a less than 10° edge angle, and are 65HrC along that edge. Most believe that even thicker edged steels in this state will be chippy...however mine are routinely used as boning knives, and to cut frozen product without issue. Now...I know a kitchen knife isn't a broadhead being tossed at 250+fps lol, but the behind the edge thickness will be FAR greater, and the hardness will be lower for the broadhead...increasing durability dramatically. Ashby's hardness recommendations were very likely highly general, being based on the qualities of a typical base carbon steel that I believe he used for his heads (AISI 1075?). Specialized steels and specialized heat treatment processes are almost guaranteed to have an impact on just how hard they can be while maintaining acceptable levels of durability. 

Also, I'm absolutely not claiming I'm right!! I'm just saying that those hardness levels are where I'll be starting my testing . Both of those processes (differential hardening and ultra fine carbide refinement) would be very, very expensive to produce in industry...which is probably the only reason it isn't done. I'll have HOURS in each of these broadheads...not even counting R&D time. At that point producing them for resale isn't much of an option (they'd be near $100...each lol). Mostly I'm doing it for aesthetics (differentially hardened blades look WICKED), uniqueness, to test theories as a bladesmith...and because I very much enjoy making my tools when I can.

Anyhow! Back to your regularly scheduled programming lol.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Cris Anderson said:


> I agree completely...however, my blades are all differentially hardened. Only the outside 1/8"-3/16" or so will be that hard. The 'body' of the blade will be much softer for durability (think Japanese swords) and shock absorption. Also, steel quality as well as the actual heat treat process plays a large part in durability. I don't want to drag your thread down with metallurgy mumbo jumbo...but carbide refinement is of CRITICAL importance when it comes to 'chippiness' in hardened steel. My kitchen knives for example...are .002" behind the edge (read: less than paper thin) with a less than 10° edge angle, and are 65HrC along that edge. Most believe that even thicker edged steels in this state will be chippy...however mine are routinely used as boning knives, and to cut frozen product without issue. Now...I know a kitchen knife isn't a broadhead being tossed at 250+fps lol, but the behind the edge thickness will be FAR greater, and the hardness will be lower for the broadhead...increasing durability dramatically. Ashby's hardness recommendations were very likely highly general, being based on the qualities of a typical base carbon steel that I believe he used for his heads (AISI 1075?). Specialized steels and specialized heat treatment processes are almost guaranteed to have an impact on just how hard they can be while maintaining acceptable levels of durability.
> 
> Also, I'm absolutely not claiming I'm right!! I'm just saying that those hardness levels are where I'll be starting my testing . Both of those processes (differential hardening and ultra fine carbide refinement) would be very, very expensive to produce in industry...which is probably the only reason it isn't done. I'll have HOURS in each of these broadheads...not even counting R&D time. At that point producing them for resale isn't much of an option (they'd be near $100...each lol). Mostly I'm doing it for aesthetics (differentially hardened blades look WICKED), uniqueness, to test theories as a bladesmith...and because I very much enjoy making my tools when I can.
> 
> Anyhow! Back to your regularly scheduled programming lol.


Hamon acid washed blade !!! Mmmmmmmm


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I want to do a recap of Ashby's Major Pentetration Enhancing Factors that I've referenced in this build. When building a complete pentration enhanced hunting arrow you must not ignore any of the factors or focus on one more than the rest. Using the equipment available that would still provide excellent arrow flight and structural integrity I think this build is as well rounded as I've ever seen. The only thing I would change if I wanted to use this for Elephant or Cape Buffalo would be to add another 250gr or so with an internal footer, or that Dauntless broadhead that was made for a bit. 

http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/2007 Update, Part 8.pdf

#1 Structual Integrity- I've used brass inserts for added strength as well as an external footing to protect it. I've also used a nock bushing on the back end to protect the nock end of the shaft. Kinetic shafts have proven to be very durable as well. The Abowyer heads are made of very high quality steel and are correctly heat treated. The ferrules are laser welded to ensure strength. 
#2 Arrow Flight I've already bare shaft tested these but just need to shoot outside at longer distance to verify fixed heads and field point have same poi. At close distance inside they shoot right with each other. 
#3 Extreme FOC At 24.26% FOC I am well above the 19% mark for high FOC but can't hit the 30% UEFOC mark with available shafts and this bow unless I add a ton of weight up front. Ashby's tests showed that once heavy bone was breached, the higher a given arrow's FOC, the greater the average penetration outcome was so every bit helps. Also once you hit 19% every 1% gained will give higher penetration potential exponentially. 
#4 Mechanical Advantage The Abowyer Brown Bear has a very high 2.33 Mechanical Advantage and greatly increases the work done with whatever useful force is available. The more efficient the rest of the arrow build is, the more penetration gain is yielded from the higher MA broadhead. 
#5 Shaft Diameter to Ferrule Diameter Ratio 10% penetration gain can be seen from a shaft that's at least 5% smaller diameter than the ferrule which this is. 0% gain if they are the same but 30% can be lost if the opposite. 
#6 Arrow Mass 746gr going 236fps equates to .781 momentum! This makes my Mathews MR5 extremely efficient shooting a calculated 383fps IBO at this arrow weight!
#7 Edge Finish Abowyer mails these heads as hunt-ready sharp and after a couple passes on my stropblock they are scary sharp!
#8 Shaft Profile Ashby said tapered shafts show an 8% penetration advantage over parallel shafts, and 15% over barrel-taper shafts. Parallel shafts show a 7% advantage over barrel-tapered ones. This is applicable to all arrows and shaft materials, on all hits. Unfortunately as I have found out(Arrow Dynamics = garbage) there are no quality shafts available in spine requirements I need or want currently.
#9 Broadhead/Arrow Silhouette The Abowyer has now abrupt angle changes(something I dislike about the Helix), is Teflon coated and has a smooth transition from the blade into the ferrule. The Kinetic shafts have a smootj finish to them as well. The tapered ends on the external footer were done to give a smooth transition as well. 
#10 Type of Edge Bevel The Abowyer is a single bevel design using Ashby's recommended 25* bevel angle. 
#11 Tip Design The Abowyer Brown Bear has the Tanto Tip which Ashby tested to be the highest performing design for penetration and least prone to damage. It also provides the lowest skip rate of any tip on angular shots. 
#12 Arrow Mass Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ashby's studies proved the dramatic increase in heavy bone breaching when arrow mass went over 650gr. It was a definitive test that showed the probability increasing as he neared 650 but when he hit the mark the increase in probability was distinct. 
#13 Arrow Force Derived From The Bow My MR5 is a 360fps IBO which has proven to be extremely efficient in the higher arrow weights. There's only another 10fps higher IBO available in today's bows and this bow IMO is a better shooter. 

Well that's the best I can come up with right now on my phone but I'll add more if I can think of it. The only thing I think Ashby would remove is the lighted nock for higher FOC but I chose the lightest on the market which is only 6gr difference from a standard G nock and I think helps for tracking when you can find the arrow every time and see what kind of blood is on it. Plus these are really not cheap and I don't wanna lose em!

I wrote this because the biggest mistake I see here on AT is people building an arrow around just 1 or 2 ideas in mind whether it be bevel edge, or arrow weight or FOC etc and completely ignore everything else. This is a complete killing system that needs everything addressed. I hope more people will think this way. 

This is one of Ashby's last articles on building the ultimate hunting arrow and one I think everyone should read: http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/Ashby_Ultimate_Hunting_Arrows.pdf


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Henro,

Great summation. 100% Correct. I believe you will convert quite a few hunters with this thread. 
The only obstacle is an industry which is geared towards speed and hunters who want to shoot 1 pin.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> 
> Great summation. 100% Correct. I believe you will convert quite a few hunters with this thread.
> The only obstacle is an industry which is geared towards speed and hunters who want to shoot 1 pin.


That's the truth. They gear towards the uninformed and what's "cool" or popular. Much easier barriers to overcome than them trying to inform people of how things actually work.


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## monsterbuckrick (Aug 14, 2009)

It's not an easy thing to do, change what youv'e done for 40 some odd years. But I have been following many articles on the broadhead and arrow system. I am still deciding on the broadhead, and like the Helix single bevel to put on my Alaskans. The total weight should be right around 650 gr. 31" arrow, shooting @ 70lbs. I still believe the German Kinetic dbl bevel XL heads are an awesome head and will try to compare those as well.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

monsterbuckrick said:


> It's not an easy thing to do, change what youv'e done for 40 some odd years. But I have been following many articles on the broadhead and arrow system. I am still deciding on the broadhead, and like the Helix single bevel to put on my Alaskans. The total weight should be right around 650 gr. 31" arrow, shooting @ 70lbs. I still believe the German Kinetic dbl bevel XL heads are an awesome head and will try to compare those as well.


I'd look into a lighter gpi shaft for better FOC. I don't know what you're specs are though for bow and draw length.


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## monsterbuckrick (Aug 14, 2009)

henro said:


> I'd look into a lighter gpi shaft for better FOC. I don't know what you're specs are though for bow and draw length.


Yeah I have some VAP's, FMJ's, and Axis footed. But I like the Alaskan's better as they are very quiet and the shot isn just smoother from my Elite Pure @ 70lbs with a 31" DL. I'm still testing but like your ideas. Right now my FOC is around 18% with a 150 gr. head but looking to go to 200gr heads.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

monsterbuckrick said:


> Yeah I have some VAP's, FMJ's, and Axis footed. But I like the Alaskan's better as they are very quiet and the shot isn just smoother from my Elite Pure @ 70lbs with a 31" DL. I'm still testing but like your ideas. Right now my FOC is around 18% with a 150 gr. head but looking to go to 200gr heads.


That's a very long draw length, make sure you have the correct spine for with extra weight up front.


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## monsterbuckrick (Aug 14, 2009)

*Spine*



henro said:


> That's a very long draw length, make sure you have the correct spine for with extra weight up front.



Thanks, yes that much weight up front would lessen my spine. I'm going to stick with the 150's.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

World Record arrow flight. 9300 Miles in 7 days from NJ to Mauritius.
The VAP 250's got here today (Thanks henro!) as well as my new 2015 PSE Bow Madness 32 (Thanks local PSE dealer!). They both arrived at the same time at the office.
All i need now are my Cutthroat 200Gr and about 35gr of internal footing and I'll have my 651gr Ashby approved hunting arrows ready for the upcoming season.
Can't wait to start shooting. "EXCITED" to say the least.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Awesome!


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Great set of arrows.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Hey Henro, do you have any experience with the 300 grain single bevel Steelforce broadheads? I'm looking to run them out of a 49 pound (measured) recurve


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BowTechForever said:


> Hey Henro, do you have any experience with the 300 grain single bevel Steelforce broadheads? I'm looking to run them out of a 49 pound (measured) recurve


Yes I shot them with my old recurve. Never hunted with it though to give any personal experience. I posted pics of them earlier in this thread.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

So this thread might take a slight turn... Couldn't pass up a sick deal on this bad boy... I have never shot one so I don't know if I'll even like it or not but for the price I got it for I can resell it easily. I can't wait to shoot it though once it comes in! The arrow build should need no alterations either. The only thing I'm not sure of is if the footing will clear the rest with 5.25" BH vs the 5" on the MR5 as I have them very close to the rest at full draw. We'll see!


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Awesome


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> Awesome


I'm anxious to try it out. It's a 2014 29"/60lb with an additional set of 70lb limbs which I'll be putting on. It's also got a brand new Brownell Fury string but I'll be changing it if I like how it shoots.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Gonna be a little while before I can get it setup but it came in today!


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## River420Bottom (Jul 21, 2008)

Nice rig... PSE man didn't think I'd see the day lol interested to see the comparison of numbers.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hoyt1021 said:


> Nice rig... PSE man didn't think I'd see the day lol interested to see the comparison of numbers.


Never been a bow fanboy, I'm equal oppurtunity. I've owned a lot of Mathews but also Hoyt, Elite, even my first bow was a Darton and now giving this PSE a try.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

My hunting buddy got one for Christmas at 72# and a 30 in draw the bow put some eye opening numbers through a chorno.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I just did a retest of on my current MR5 tuneup with some varying weights so I'll have something to compare the Full Throttle with side by side. Didn't have anything in the 400s that would be spined properly to give accurate numbers. 

MR5 29" measured draw length @ 70.2lbs

The low weight numbers are puzzling to me and far off from my testing with this bow from 2012(358gr was hitting 339fps before). The higher weight are not though. It may have something to do with the tuning being done to the high weight arrows but I really don't know. I did have a string stretch issue last summer that we retuned after so maybe that has something to do with it but everything is in spec now. The heavy weight speeds are great though.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Henro been awhile since I ran my mr5. I know my light arrows put me around that 353 mark. But I hit my 360 mark not far above 500 gn. I need to go retest myself.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

enewman said:


> Henro been awhile since I ran my mr5. I know my light arrows put me around that 353 mark. But I hit my 360 mark not far above 500 gn. I need to go retest myself.


Yeah when I did it last time in 2012 it was 356IBO at 339fps.


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## River420Bottom (Jul 21, 2008)

enewman said:


> Henro been awhile since I ran my mr5. I know my light arrows put me around that 353 mark. But I hit my 360 mark not far above 500 gn. I need to go retest myself.


Makes me want to run mine too, never would expect a 348 out of it, awesome to see the efficiency sky rocket after 575ish


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## Braceheight777 (Jan 10, 2014)

At 786 grains that's a bow mounted spear. Will you do any pentitration test, via gelatin or plywood, Henro?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Braceheight777 said:


> At 786 grains that's a bow mounted spear. Will you do any pentitration test, via gelatin or plywood, Henro?


If I do another penetration test it will be like my last with a real deer shoulder. IMO nothing else really predicts anything accurately.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Bad ass pair of bows you got there henro.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

0nepin said:


> Bad ass pair of bows you got there henro.


Thanks man I can't wait to have the FT setup to shoot to compare. I like the feel of the PSE grip just holding it.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Have shot both a lot and there both top notch IMHO .


henro said:


> Thanks man I can't wait to have the FT setup to shoot to compare. I like the feel of the PSE grip just holding it.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Henro. Yours is running a little slow


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

enewman said:


> Henro. Yours is running a little slow


Lol damn I'll say! Comparing your numbers if you add 25fps for 29" draw and say 2fps for 7gr more that would be roughly 245fps with my 746gr arrow. 9fps difference from mine at 236fps which would be about what I lost compared to my light arrow numbers in 2012. Wonder if the string stretching has something to do with it because the bow has been brought back into spec.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

enewman what's your actual measured draw length? I had to switch to 28.5" mods recently and do some tweaking to get a true measured 29" draw. Thinking back that would slightly distort my old numbers so I don't know if they're really off from before. It was running 5/8" long.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

I have the 26 mod then it's running just right at 26.5. Measured. I need to recheck. I tweak on my bow so much. It could be plus or minus 1/8.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Quick question, why are you guys putting IBO numbers as high as 383 and 390 into your calculator? Is that to compensate for the efficiency gain you see with heavy arrows?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BowTechForever said:


> Quick question, why are you guys putting IBO numbers as high as 383 and 390 into your calculator? Is that to compensate for the efficiency gain you see with heavy arrows?


Yes for that program you have to enter the IBO to calculate the speed so you have to enter a higher IBO to match the actual speed.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

What is the name of that app?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

ArcheryPal


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## sigfla (Sep 19, 2006)

Does anyone know someone who sells footed arrows?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sigfla said:


> Does anyone know someone who sells footed arrows?


I do Mauritian bought em lol.


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## sigfla (Sep 19, 2006)

lol I wanted them but with my draw length they were a no go


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

I Just re fletched them and added some internal footing. 652 gr.
They freakin THUMP.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> I Just re fletched them and added some internal footing. 652 gr.
> They freakin THUMP.


Awesome! What fletching and what's FOC now? I always used AMO for reference.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

FOC at 21.80.
I dressed up 4 arrows with 4" duravanes so i could tune my new Madness 32.
Forgot about the 6" BH so am about to order some 3" vanes so the fletching won't sit on the rest.
I might stick with flex fletch like you already have on these but with different colors. not sure yet.
In addition to the arrows i bought, I still have a dozen shafts i need to foot and fletch.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Got the Throttle setup enough to shoot it today. Swapped the 70lb limbs on it and added loop and peep. Don't have a sight on it but put an old NAP prong rest we had laying around. It's not completely tuned as the ATA is 1/4" long at 33.5" but BH is spot on at 5.25" and the cams have been timed. Draw weight was set to 70.2lbs but I have not measured actual DL yet. Shooting a 750gr arrow back to back with both bows shows 235fps for the MR5 and 240fps for the Full Throttle. The draw is very different compared to the Mathews. The PSE stacks up fast, feeling much heavier in draw weight to the Mathews with a hard hump at the end of the draw cycle before it drops into the stops. I shot the PSE multiple times throughout the day and picked up the Mathews later which felt like a Cadillac for smoothness compared to the PSE. There's no hump in that draw cycle but it does not have the nice firm back wall the PSE has which I liked. The valley seemed almost nonexistent, especially compared to the Mathews, which has a huge valley, and if you don't hold firmly into the wall and let up at all it will go. Holding into the wall correctly didn't seem to make this much of an issue. I'm going to continue to shoot the bow for a while to get used to the draw and decide what I want to do. It is very very quiet, especially with the heavy arrow just like the Mathews and only has very slightly more vibe. The Mathews has no vibe but is heavily weighed down with dampening like the KTech ksb1, dual harmonic dampeners and limbsavers.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Also just to note the limbs were assembled 180 left and 174 right on top and 170 left and 176 right on the bottom as instructed by the sheet from PSE. The bow maxed at 74lbs.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Looks like draw length may be long too at 29 3/8" to 29.5" by measuring where the rest is touching the footing...


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

That's really cool man...I've never liked the feel of any of the PSE's I've shot...but they are absolutely fast bows. Doesn't look like your MR5 suffers in comparison much though, particularly if the PSE is a bit long . I agree on the limb stops though. I can't imagine why all bows don't have optional limb stops like the new Bears do. Best of both worlds couldn't hurt sales at all. 

I just finally cranked my bow up all the way, and man do I have some conditioning to do! I'm not a weak guy...and pulling the 62lbs was getting really easy for me. I didn't expect the 70lbs to be that big a difference, but after three shots it was a bit of a struggle to draw once it got close to the valley.

Guess that just needs time and practice though, lol.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

So if the pse is running .5 long. Then both bows will be shooting the same. If that is right. That would mean the pse is not as efficient as the mathes with the heavier arrows. As the pse should be 10 ft faster. 

And I beleive from what I'm getting. Either your chrono is slow, mine is fast or your mathews is not in tune. Using my numbers from my 753 arrow. You should be around 245. 

There is also the possibility that the mr series are more efficient at the shorter draw. That might be hard to believe


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I don't want rule anything out yet speed wise until the FT is finished being tuned for a fair comparison. It's tough to compare speeds using different chrono's too. Mine is a ProChrono Digital with the light kit that was recalibrated about a year or so ago. It is very consistent from shot to shot so I don't think there's any issues with it. I do know my MR5 is fully tuned and in spec. Like I said previously, the string stretching that happened in the summer could have something to do with the loss of speed but it was brought back to spec since and retuned.


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## River420Bottom (Jul 21, 2008)

Very interesting numbers that's for sure, I didn't expect to be that close


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Decided to take this arrow build in a different direction....


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## BluMeanie (May 5, 2014)

henro said:


> Decided to take this arrow build in a different direction....


That'll put a hole in a Deer..... :laugh:


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## yotehunter243 (Aug 12, 2013)

henro said:


> Decided to take this arrow build in a different direction....


Exactly what I have been looking for


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Sorry jk lol. Turkey heads only.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Those should put a turkey down quickly


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## yotehunter243 (Aug 12, 2013)

Where did you get them? I have been looking for a big 3 blade. If all else fails I'll get some NAP FOC heads


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

yotehunter243 said:


> Where did you get them? I have been looking for a big 3 blade. If all else fails I'll get some NAP FOC heads


Classifieds.


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## yotehunter243 (Aug 12, 2013)

I have looked everywhere and c only find the 125 grain


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Haven't finished the Full Throttle yet. Breathn is building me strings for it then I will completely tune it and shoot it a bunch to determine if I'll keep it or not. Also purchased a PSE specific QAD for it.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm interested in hearing how your FT turns out. I just shot one today at the GAOS and even at 70 pounds I thought it was smooth and held really nice. Spit a fast arrow too. Interested to see how well it handles the high weight


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BowTechForever said:


> I'm interested in hearing how your FT turns out. I just shot one today at the GAOS and even at 70 pounds I thought it was smooth and held really nice. Spit a fast arrow too. Interested to see how well it handles the high weight


I can't say I agree. It's definitely not smooth compared to the MR5 but I'm trying to get used to it regardless. I'm hoping there's a few fps left in the tune and Breathn's strings.


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## donnyscott (Aug 8, 2014)

tagged


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

Very good summary of Ashby's list of factors for a lethal arrow build and what you've done to make yours. My latest, using GT Kinetic XT200 shafts as well, will be finished as soon as my 100-gr stainless steel screw-on adapters arrive from Tuffhead. I'll take a few pics of my finished arrows as soon after as I can as they will be very similar to yours except weighing in about 685-gr. I've already shot them with 250-gr field tips and they've impressed me with every shot.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Rockyhud said:


> Very good summary of Ashby's list of factors for a lethal arrow build and what you've done to make yours. My latest, using GT Kinetic XT200 shafts as well, will be finished as soon as my 100-gr stainless steel screw-on adapters arrive from Tuffhead. I'll take a few pics of my finished arrows as soon after as I can as they will be very similar to yours except weighing in about 685-gr. I've already shot them with 250-gr field tips and they've impressed me with every shot.


Awesome looking forward to seeing your finished results! I hope more people look at this and realize the arrow's ability to penetrate needs to be looked at as a complete package and not focus on just one or two ideas like so many do.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Just Built an arrow that weighs 650.5 Grains with 37.378% FOC to shoot out of my Elite Fire using OT2. I am a big fan of the Ashby Reports and all your info.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

trimalimb said:


> Just Built an arrow that weighs 650.5 Grains with 37.378% FOC to shoot out of my Elite Fire using OT2. I am a big fan of the Ashby Reports and all your info.


That's EXACTLY where I'm headed next lol. 250g broadheads, 100g inner footing, 41g outsert, 25.25" .250 spine X-Impacts, and AAE Pro Max Vanes (if i don't go with feathers). FoC should be right about where you are now, as will total weight. 

I credit Henro for getting me stuck in this heavy arrow, super high FoC% rut as well .

But I'm definitely loving it lol!


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Cris Anderson said:


> That's EXACTLY where I'm headed next lol. 250g broadheads, 100g inner footing, 41g outsert, 25.25" .250 spine X-Impacts, and AAE Pro Max Vanes (if i don't go with feathers). FoC should be right about where you are now, as will total weight.
> 
> I credit Henro for getting me stuck in this heavy arrow, super high FoC% rut as well .
> 
> But I'm definitely loving it lol!


BOW 
2008 Elite Fire
61.4lbs
7.25"BH
80%
27.5DL

ARROW
High Country Speed Pro 5.5GPI x 25.75" =141.6 Grains
VAP 300 internal footing 5.75" = 51.5 Grains
Harvest Time Penetrator Insert = 85 Grains
Grizzly Stick external footing 3.5"= 36 Grains
Alaska Bowhunting Field Point 309 Grains ( Will be shooting the Ashby Broadhead 315 Grains )
Nocturnal Lighted Nock = 20 Grains
Gateway Rayzr Feather 1.8 x 3 = 5.4 Grains
Glue 2 Grains
TOTAL Weight 650.5 Grains
Balance point is 22.5" giving a FOC of 37.378% using the AMO method :teeth:


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

trimalimb said:


> BOW
> 2008 Elite Fire
> 61.4lbs
> 7.25"BH
> ...


VERY NICE!!

Mine's a little different.

BOW
2014 Xpedition Xcentric
70lbs
5.75"BH
70%
27DL

ARROW
Black Eagle X-Impact 9.5GPI x 25.25" = 239.9 Grains
Lead rod internal footing = 100 Grains
Black Eagle Outsert = 41 Grains
Field Point = 250 Grains ( Will be shooting my own broadheads at 250 Grains )
Self made lighted nocks (Accunock) = 21.5 Grains
Modded TruFlight Shield's .8 x 3 = 2.4 Grains
Glue 2 Grains (maybe)
TOTAL Weight 655.8 Grains

Now...I don't have this shaft built. However...I do have the exact shaft made without the 100g insert and the feathers. It's sitting at a measured 31.8% FoC (OT2 says it's 26% lol) using the AMO method. All of my arrows have been about 6% higher in FOC than OT2 says, and it says these new arrows will be 29.41%. I'm thinking that means I'll be somewhat close to the same 37% you are, at 35%.

At least I'm hoping .


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Cris Anderson said:


> VERY NICE!!
> 
> Mine's a little different.
> 
> ...


Goodluck with that arrow build Chris. One other thing I was considering doing was filling the arrow shaft from nock end with expandable foam to help arrow recovering and remove vibrations in the arrow upon impact. I don't know how much the foam will weigh and how consistent filling each arrow will be grain wise. Also I am not sure how it would affect the arrow spine. This would obviously make the arrow heavier and I would lose FOC, but I think it could increase arrow durability. Any thoughts Henro


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Cris Anderson said:


> That's EXACTLY where I'm headed next lol. 250g broadheads, 100g inner footing, 41g outsert, 25.25" .250 spine X-Impacts, and AAE Pro Max Vanes (if i don't go with feathers). FoC should be right about where you are now, as will total weight.
> 
> I credit Henro for getting me stuck in this heavy arrow, super high FoC% rut as well .
> 
> But I'm definitely loving it lol!


Glad I could spread the addiction lol. Looking forward to your results with that broadhead you built!



trimalimb said:


> BOW
> 2008 Elite Fire
> 61.4lbs
> 7.25"BH
> ...





trimalimb said:


> Just Built an arrow that weighs 650.5 Grains with 37.378% FOC to shoot out of my Elite Fire using OT2. I am a big fan of the Ashby Reports and all your info.





trimalimb said:


> Goodluck with that arrow build Chris. One other thing I was considering doing was filling the arrow shaft from nock end with expandable foam to help arrow recovering and remove vibrations in the arrow upon impact. I don't know how much the foam will weigh and how consistent filling each arrow will be grain wise. Also I am not sure how it would affect the arrow spine. This would obviously make the arrow heavier and I would lose FOC, but I think it could increase arrow durability. Any thoughts Henro


That is something I wouldn't do. I don't know how it will affect spine and also not having consistent gpi may affect arrow flight. I would stick with your plan you have now it sounds stout! Post a pic of the build if you can!


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

trimalimb said:


> Goodluck with that arrow build Chris. One other thing I was considering doing was filling the arrow shaft from nock end with expandable foam to help arrow recovering and remove vibrations in the arrow upon impact. I don't know how much the foam will weigh and how consistent filling each arrow will be grain wise. Also I am not sure how it would affect the arrow spine. This would obviously make the arrow heavier and I would lose FOC, but I think it could increase arrow durability. Any thoughts Henro


I've tried Polyurethane expandable foam. Did not work. Increased the weight, lowered the FOC and didn't seem to help spine. 
I tested with a DIY caliper spine tester. Not sure how accurate it was 
Might as well use some 200 or 250 spine arrows.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

tagged


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Alaska Bowhunting Field Point (Plan on Shooting the Ashby Broadhead 315 Grains)  Harvest Time HT-1 Penetrator Insert 303 Steel  VAP 300 internal footing 5.75"


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Grizzly Stick UFOC Momentum 4560 External Footing 3.5" This fits over the top of the Speed Pro shaft perfectly and then slides to within a 1/16" of the end of the HT-1 insert.  This is a pic of all the above mentioned components and how they will fit together and overlap.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Here you can see the balance point of the arrow. The total length of the Speed Pro is 25.75" the balance point is at 22.5 inches. ( Remember the External Footing is over top of the HT-1 Penetrator tip so the arrow appears 7/8" longer than it actually is.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

As you can see from this photo the balance point is 22.5 inches which is 3.25" from the end of the the arrow where the HT-1 insert is. The external footing had not been glued when the arrow was balancing on the chair, so I slid it back to show you the measurements.

This pic shows the Length of shaft 25.75", Gateway Rayzr Feathers, and Nocturnal lighted nock.

The assembled arrow total weight on the scale 650.5 Grains.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

The above is the OT2 Program with my Elite Fire Specs 61.4lbs 80% 27.5DL etc. My Bow is in tune. I currently left the performance factor untouched as I will adjust this once I shoot the arrow and get an actual FPS with this arrow. Currently the program is showing the bow to shoot around 210FPS. I am expecting the actual to be a little higher but we will have to wait and see.

My actual Speed Pro arrow is 25.75" however the only way I could build this arrow in the program was to deduct the internal footing length of the VAP arrow 5.75" and add it to the insert weight assuming the first 5.75" of this arrow will not flex. This in turn leaves me with a Speed Pro length of 20" which is why this arrow builds at such a extreme UFOC yet still according to OT2 Spines well.
The Breakdown is as follows...
Point: 315 Grains field Tip + 85 Grain Penetrator insert = 400 Grains 
Insert: VAP 5.75" x 8.9 GPI = 51.175 Grains + Speed Pro 5.75" x 5.5 GPI = 31.625 Grains + 31.7 Grains External Footing = 114.5 Total Grains (This number is slightly different from my actual of 36.5 Grains, however I did figure the Field tip to be 315 Grains and the actual was 309 so the Grains cancel each other out.)


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

The Spine is slightly stiff, however once I shoot the arrow and if it Chrony's higher than the 210 FPS i can adjust the performance factor which should make the arrow spine better.

Here is the Ballistic Data. What I found interesting is that the Momentum at 20 yards is .6003 Slug Feet Per Second and even at 100 yards the arrow has a momentum producing .5779 Slug Feet Per Second !!!! (No I don't take 100 yard shots)


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Does the entire external footing clear your rest at full draw?


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

No it does not. I am going to put epoxy on the base of the external footing and sand it out to taper it out. Still have to figure out what type of material to use for that.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

trimalimb said:


> No it does not. I am going to put epoxy on the base of the external footing and sand it out to taper it out. Still have to figure out what type of material to use for that.


Trimalimb,
How does the OD of your external footing and the OD of the ferule compare? On the pic the footing looks larger.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

henro said:


> Does the entire external footing clear your rest at full draw?


After you made your post I decided epoxy and sanding sounded like a bad idea, so I ended up lengthening the arrow from 25.75" to to 26.75", Internal from 5.75" to 5.5" and external footing from 3.5" to 2.5". This will make the rear of the external footing set 25.25" from the nock groove and I need 25" to stay in front of my Limbdriver rest. The build on OT2 spines near perfect with a total new weight of 649.7 and 36.32%FOC. I originally used a speed pro that was already cut and fletched not taking into account the rest with the external footing. Thanks for pointing that out Henro.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Mauritian said:


> Trimalimb,
> How does the OD of your external footing and the OD of the ferule compare? On the pic the footing looks larger.


The external grizzly stick fits perfectly over the shaft and when slid forward stops just short of the end of ferrule about 1/16 of an inch which self aligns the external footing. I use Goat Tuff adhesive to glue the components. Internal footing to ferrule let dry 3-4 hours, internal footing to shaft let dry 3-4 hours, external footing to shaft and ferrule. I completely covered the shaft and ferrule generously and then cleaned up the excess glue. I believe there was enough glue to fill the void between ferrule and external footing.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

trimalimb said:


> After you made your post I decided epoxy and sanding sounded like a bad idea, so I ended up lengthening the arrow from 25.75" to to 26.75", Internal from 5.75" to 5.5" and external footing from 3.5" to 2.5". This will make the rear of the external footing set 25.25" from the nock groove and I need 25" to stay in front of my Limbdriver rest. The build on OT2 spines near perfect with a total new weight of 649.7 and 36.32%FOC. I originally used a speed pro that was already cut and fletched not taking into account the rest with the external footing. Thanks for pointing that out Henro.


Good thing you didn't have them all built up already and glad I asked you in time lol. I'll be interested to see how the spine matches your bows specs and OT2 when you shoot broadheads and field points.


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## Stumblinhorse (Dec 1, 2013)

Question, I am using a internal footing, I guess that is what you call it. It is just a piece of carbon arrow that has an od of .240. I am adding ~50 grn to the front of arrow(5" piece). Does that help or hurt spine? I am messing around with weight and try to wieght match a couple sets of arrow. I have .340 spine 26.5" carbon to carbon with 185 grn up front. So I know I am pushing the limit on spine, but want to know from the experts if the footing helps a little? Shooting 70# 29".


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Stumblinhorse said:


> Question, I am using a internal footing, I guess that is what you call it. It is just a piece of carbon arrow that has an od of .240. I am adding ~50 grn to the front of arrow(5" piece). Does that help or hurt spine? I am messing around with weight and try to wieght match a couple sets of arrow. I have .340 spine 26.5" carbon to carbon with 185 grn up front. So I know I am pushing the limit on spine, but want to know from the experts if the footing helps a little? Shooting 70# 29".


It's gonna depend on which is stiffer, footing or shaft itself. Only real way to find out is shoot and test. From everything I've seen, being borderline is not where you wanna be but testing is only way to know.


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## Stumblinhorse (Dec 1, 2013)

I have a set of 300 spine arrows on the way, but don't want to discard the couple dozen 350 spine that I used when I was uneducated and immature in my arrow craft! Lol! Just want to have arrows that match the total weight of the 300s, a measly 465 grn.

Thanks for be help.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

Love that arrow!!

The way I did it with mine though, was to go with the stiffest/lightest shaft available to me that met my quality standards (Black Eagle X-Impact .250's), and not worry about the 'correct' spine (meaning I want as stiff a shaft as I can get regardless of the 'correct' factor). My current arrows are only 550 grains, with 31% FoC, and calculate out (per OT2) at almost .100" too stiff. 

Henro can attest to the fact that they fly like darts, with my Ashby inspired broadheads and bareshafts both hitting dead on with fletched field points. IMO...'too stiff' is a myth, if you can tune your bow.

Example:










No broadheads shot in this...but you can see the two bareshaft shots in the middle.


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## trimalimb (Mar 4, 2008)

Henro I was thinking about this arrow I built with the internal footing and external footing. If you look at my post of OT2 you will see that I spined the speed pro arrow at 20" and added all the weight forward of 20 inches to the insert and point. My reasoning for this was because I believed that with the internal VAP 300 spine, Speed Pro spine, and Grizzly stick spine it would virtually be stiff with no movement. If this were true all that weight in the first 6.75" before the broad head would not flex or move as if it were part of the Broadhead itself. Based on this theory if we base the FOC of this particular arrow on a 20" Shaft with a balance point of 22.5" would this arrow actually have a true FOC of 62.5% FOC assuming nothing forward of the 20" is flexing. What are your thoughts on this theory?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Not the way I would see it. AMO is throat of nock to end of shaft not including the insert.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

henro said:


> Not the way I would see it. AMO is throat of nock to end of shaft not including the insert.


This is where it was difficult to me too, my arrows are 25.75" from nock throat to carbon before I install the outsert. My outserts are .875" deep...meaning they cover that much shaft. Final shaft length from nock throat to outsert is 24.875". Is this the length you would use for AMO FoC% calculations? If so, with a balance point of 20.25"...that puts my broadhead based arrows at a measured 31.41% FoC. Using nock throat to carbon (meaning including the sleeved portion) it puts my FoC% at a measured 28.63%.

Which way is right?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I would go by where your end of carbon shaft meets the outsert. I don't know if this is technically covered in AMO specification or not. Either way it's not gonna change how the arrow shoots lol.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

This is a diagram of AMO measurement


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

So I'd prolly measure as henro is saying in this situation


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

Sounds good lol. I know the flight is't going to change...I just want to make sure I'm labeling it right for others is all .


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Henro,
The VAP 250's I bought from you got their 1st victim yesterday. A young 75lbs boar on a walk and stalk. 
I almost got to do a live test of an Ashby arrow. The arrow skidded off of the humerus just above the elbow joint. Exited about 8" higher in the opposit shoulder.
He actually fell at the hit, got up, ran 10 yds and died. Should be great tasting meat to put on the Weber as its mango season here in the tropics.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> The VAP 250's I bought from you got their 1st victim yesterday. A young 75lbs boar on a walk and stalk.
> I almost got to do a live test of an Ashby arrow. The arrow skidded off of the humerus just above the elbow joint. Exited about 8" higher in the opposit shoulder.
> He actually fell at the hit, got up, ran 10 yds and died. Should be great tasting meat to put on the Weber as its mango season here in the tropics.


Oh man that's awesome! How did everything hold up after the shot? Broadhead and arrow still good? Any pics? Pass through?


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Complete pass through. The arrow ended up in a cinnamon tree but it was too dark to look for it. I heard it hit the leaves though. I'll look for it this weekend.
Really want to see how it held up. 
I'll post some low quality phone pics shortly. I didn't have flash unfortunately.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Here are a couple pics.
View attachment 2177498


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> The VAP 250's I bought from you got their 1st victim yesterday. A young 75lbs boar on a walk and stalk.
> I almost got to do a live test of an Ashby arrow. The arrow skidded off of the humerus just above the elbow joint. Exited about 8" higher in the opposit shoulder.
> He actually fell at the hit, got up, ran 10 yds and died. Should be great tasting meat to put on the Weber as its mango season here in the tropics.


75lb boar...YUM!!!

Shooting 300lb beasts is all cool for bragging rights, but nothing beats the little ones for taste lol.

Congratulations!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Nice I bet that thing was delicious! I shot a 230lb boar last March with that arrow build and the Steelforce 190gr single bevels and got a pass through at 30yds and the arrow was stuck in a tree behind it. They're pig proven lol.

That guy next to it who was processing it for me was no tiny Tim lol.


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## BluMeanie (May 5, 2014)

Oh, I dunno henro - he looks about like every guy I have ever met named "Tiny"....


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Henro,
How did the 1/2 outserts and footing hold up on that monster boar?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> How did the 1/2 outserts and footing hold up on that monster boar?


The arrow was buried up to the footing in a 4-6" sapling. Got it out and didn't have a scratch on it. Center punched the boar sliced some ribs.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Glad to hear it. sounds like the footing is the key.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Glad to hear it. sounds like the footing is the key.


Totally agree. With the VAP's the only thing I've found that was truly durable was the SS half-outsert/footing combo.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

WOW is all i can say. I'm setting up my cousin with the same arrows as myself. He called and told me that i had to come over and check something out.
He shows me an arrow and a wall.
Henro's 250 VAPs with Alu xternal footing, some internal footing and 200 gr point. Total 655 gr arrow.
Cousins bow: a PSE Rogue @ 30/70. 
His arrow at 225fps right into a concrete wall. See pics below.
Arrow, insert(S/S) and point intact.
A little wobble only, which is expected.
Awesome penetration potential. 
I am now certain as to these arrows structural integrity.
Can't wait fof June.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Glad to hear they are holding up well for you bud!


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

i somehow missed the last 5 pages or so of this thread. thanks for all the info, and i'm anxious to see henro's FT once its fully tuned and ready to roll.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

cooperjd said:


> i somehow missed the last 5 pages or so of this thread. thanks for all the info, and i'm anxious to see henro's FT once its fully tuned and ready to roll.


You and me both! Lol. I will hopefully have the new strings installed tomorrow. I just got word my bow shop that the Spot Hogg Fast Eddie I ordered is supposed to be on its way to him. Not too much longer now!


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## ThumpinOutdoors (Mar 14, 2015)

Guys according to ed Ashby he said start with point weight. Well I have a point weight of 150 grains. And I'm looking for a good hunting arrow for heavy foc. I'm shooting a 72# bow with a 27.5" dl.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

ThumpinOutdoors said:


> Guys according to ed Ashby he said start with point weight. Well I have a point weight of 150 grains. And I'm looking for a good hunting arrow for heavy foc. I'm shooting a 72# bow with a 27.5" dl.


you can go back in this thread and find several different heavy builds. here is the one i just completed
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2419895
that build gave me 640gr at 17.5% FOC. that was with a 50gr HIT insert behind a 50gr black eagle half out, covered with a 1.75" piece of 2014 al arrow; and with 125gr points...though i can go heavier on points if i want more FOC. i'm not sure what the heaviest i can go and still maintain a good spine, i'll have to go back to OT2 for that.

lots of different ways to achieve heavy arrows and high FOC. but it depends on what you want. a lighter gpi shaft will allow a higher FOC with a set point weight than a heavier gpi shaft. also depends on how heavy you want your total overall arrow. what speed are you comfortable with? i would find the slowest speed you're comfortable with, and build an arrow that will get you there. now you have your total arrow weight, its time to try and build one to that weight with the most amount of FOC, while maintaining proper spine for your setup. this is where the software comes in very handy.

personally i kept my point weight at 125 so i could keep trying out a bunch of different broadheads, and there are lots of options at that weight. but with the epoxy, HITs, black eagles, and footer, my total weight up front is probably around 250 gr.

you can look at black eagle arrows, gold tip velocity pros are pretty light and stiff, its what i have for my 'lightweight' arrows at 505gr and 17%FOC. those you can easily just get the regular 100gr brass inserts from gold tip to really increase up front weight. lots of good info on the pages of this thread.


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## ThumpinOutdoors (Mar 14, 2015)

cooperjd said:


> you can go back in this thread and find several different heavy builds. here is the one i just completed
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2419895
> that build gave me 640gr at 17.5% FOC. that was with a 50gr HIT insert behind a 50gr black eagle half out, covered with a 1.75" piece of 2014 al arrow; and with 125gr points...though i can go heavier on points if i want more FOC. i'm not sure what the heaviest i can go and still maintain a good spine, i'll have to go back to OT2 for that.
> 
> ...


I want an arrow weighing 500 grains or less. I don't own any software... my shop only sells Easton arrows, gold tips 7595, and vap arrows. 

I'll see what tunes best through paper. I've heard bad things about vap arrows and carbon express maxima reds breaking. That scares me as I'm no rich man by any means(don't even have a job). $13 an arrow is high if it breaks very easy. 

An arrow that I'm thinking about shooting is the blue streak. Gold tips are $6 bucks a piece. I used them for a while to get a feel for them and I believe there is better out there. 

I've been told to stay way from foc. It doesn't serve a point. To not even try....I didn't listen to the haters. I still want a high foc arrow. Around 15%-19% is fine with me. 

Any help would be great ful. Like I said u shoot a 71# bow with a 27.5" dl.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

We need to know make/model/year of the bow. Just knowing the weight and draw length does not do us any good. 

However, not knowing the bow with just your draw length and poundage, I would say black eagle rampage .300, 27.5" shaft length weighing 8.7gpi = 239.25gr, 150gr tip, regular aluminum 16gr HIT insert, 2.5" of easton XX75 1916 aluminum arrow for an external footing 25gr, easton X nock 9gr. That is roughly 440gr without your desired fletching. Three 2" blazer vanes will bring you up to ~460gr. This setup will put you at roughly 19% FOC.


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## ThumpinOutdoors (Mar 14, 2015)

Kaizoku said:


> We need to know make/model/year of the bow. Just knowing the weight and draw length does not do us any good.
> 
> However, not knowing the bow with just your draw length and poundage, I would say black eagle rampage .300, 27.5" shaft length weighing 8.7gpi = 239.25gr, 150gr tip, regular aluminum 16gr HIT insert, 2.5" of easton XX75 1916 aluminum arrow for an external footing 25gr, easton X nock 9gr. That is roughly 440gr without your desired fletching. Three 2" blazer vanes will bring you up to ~460gr. This setup will put you at roughly 19% FOC.


I have a custom built around 07 pse x force with Evo Cams ibo is 350. Shot a 400 grain arrow @ 305fps


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

ThumpinOutdoors said:


> I have a custom built around 07 pse x force with Evo Cams ibo is 350. Shot a 400 grain arrow @ 305fps


Well using a 2012 PSE Dream Season Evo and the arrow I described this is the results. Obviously it likely won't be exact since you have a frankenbow. So take it for what it's worth.


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## ThumpinOutdoors (Mar 14, 2015)

Kaizoku said:


> Well using a 2012 PSE Dream Season Evo and the arrow I described this is the results. Obviously it likely won't be exact since you have a frankenbow. So take it for what it's worth.
> 
> View attachment 2187366


Thanks


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

cooperjd said:


> you can go back in this thread and find several different heavy builds.


Definitely! Mine is in here too. 550g, 31% FoC. I'm using 250 spine Black Eagle X-Impacts and my own broadhead (link in the signature).

I need to take the time to research some footing for my setup. Henro's pointed me at some links that I'll be looking at today. I'm cranking my bow up to 70lbs this week (been at 65lbs awhile now), and an extra 100g in innner/outer footing will keep me right in the 250fps ball park I like. 650g, 34% plus FoC, 250fps? 

Absolutely!


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## Jboss2 (Jul 12, 2010)

Anyone know if a 27" c to c fmj 300 with 125 grain head, 100 grain brass insert 7" wrap Blazers and nocturnal would spine out on a 28" 80# pse DNA ( original not sp ) or would I have to go with an axis 260??


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

To keep things clear in here keep the spine questions to making a new thread. All you need is ontarget2 software to get close.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

I just built the 1st sample of my hunting arrow for the upcoming season.
This is the follow up build to Henro's VAP 250's I bought. I added 1" extra footing and 1/2" of carbon to up the weight to 650 Grains, avoiding any internal footing I was planning on using.

VAP 250's / footed 
Knock out lighted nock 
3" VaneTec V-Max vanes 
Cutthroat BH(200Gr) 
@ 20.5% FOC

Now I need to build 11 more


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> I just built the 1st sample of my hunting arrow for the upcoming season.
> This is the follow up build to Henro's VAP 250's I bought. I added 1" extra footing and 1/2" of carbon to up the weight to 650 Grains, avoiding any internal footing I was planning on using.
> 
> VAP 250's / footed
> ...


Nice job Mauritian! How did you change the footing structure on the shaft? Those Cutthroat heads should work awesome and be very tough!

My brother buckkilla and I were also able to get some time in setting up the new Full Throttle with the Breathn BCY-X strings. It's still in the break-in period until the strings settle but here's some teaser pics. Once I shoot it enough for the strings to settle and get it set back to factory specs I'll chrono it. For now the cams are timed perfectly with the LCA draw board, ATA was 33-1/8", DL was 29-1/4" and BH was 5-1/4". I'm also still waiting for my new Spot Hogg Fast Eddie to ship and my 4-pin head to come back from them with the pin configuration changed to all green top 3 .019 and bottom .010. I had all .010 and couldn't see them very well lol.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

I'm actually building a new set of VAP's with a little longer ext. footing to get to Ashby's magical number.
Dynamic spine should be fine.
My cousin will be using your arrows though. He's got 70/30" and they fit him and his bow to a T. 
I've actually got 6 different guys(and a wife) here whom I've converted to heavy arrows.
One of them just got a PSE FT and I just built him a Buff arrow with an easton DG 250 + Ashby 315 BH + footing(988Gr.)
I hope it tunes. I'll post the speeds and specs when he gets back from his overseas trip and we can test.
Cheers


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

By the way.
That FT looks mean!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Strings still gotta settle but I shot it through the chrono tonight. No peep installed yet.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Here you can see how it picked up from efficiency with the heavy arrows.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

Nice. What's the draw cycle like on that beast


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

cooperjd said:


> Nice. What's the draw cycle like on that beast


It's definitely not smooth like the MR5 but I've been spending a good amount of time getting used to it now. It's very stiff right off the bat and doesn't fall off. There's a hump at the end of the draw cycle which ends right at the draw stops. There's basically no valley(even with the stock rubber removed from the draw stops and replaced with shrink wrap to increase it) but practice leads you to be ready for it. Bambikiller gave me good advice in spending time daily shooting it and not going back to my Mathews. It's made me more focused on my entire shot cycle compared to the Mathews Mr5 where you could let up with the long valley and 80% letoff vs 70% for the Full Throttle. I honestly hated shooting it the first few weeks but I don't mind it now and like shooting it. It's super quiet with no vibe shooting these heavy arrows.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Finally got my new Spot Hogg Fast Eddie sight in today and the bow is set to spec now. ATA came in at 33-1/4", BH at 5-5/16", DL at 29-5/16" and DW set to 70.7lbs. The bow shoots a 746gr arrow at 242fps with loop and peep.


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## mikehoyme (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks for sharing all of that, I was really curious how the Full Throttle would deal with a heavy arrow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mikehoyme said:


> Thanks for sharing all of that, I was really curious how the Full Throttle would deal with a heavy arrow.


It certainly doesn't have an issue with them lol. 

Not being too familiar with PSE's or anything with a flex guard before, I've noticed the draw is very sensitive to how tight you have this set. Keeping it within an 1/8" of the fletching smooths the draw quite a bit.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Think these numbers look pretty good with the arrows I've built...


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Awesome setup Henro.
Heavy arrows and fast bows are UN-stoppable.
I'm a big fan of PSE


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Awesome setup Henro.
> Heavy arrows and fast bows are UN-stoppable.
> I'm a big fan of PSE


Thanks man. I gotta get it tuned soon so I can shoot 3D with it.


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## Zuuk (May 20, 2013)

henro said:


> Thanks man. I gotta get it tuned soon so I can shoot 3D with it.


What arrows are you going to be running for 3D ? , not these monster for an arrow are ya ?
Just asking because I get the looks on un-approval when blowing through our local range targets with just regular VAP's, lol.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Zuuk said:


> What arrows are you going to be running for 3D ? , not these monster for an arrow are ya ?
> Just asking because I get the looks on un-approval when blowing through our local range targets with just regular VAP's, lol.


Same nothing different. I won't be going to many shoots as I don't have the time, but I want to be able to go to a couple.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

just to add yet another example of a bows efficiency going up with a heavier arrow.

bow: 78# D350, 30"
arrow: GT kinetic chaos 200

with 125gr tip: 634gr @ 272 fps

i tested some 175gr tips, so 684gr @ 263 fps thru my chrono.

so adding 50gr i only lost an average of 9-10 fps. with several shots yesterday. thats 5gr per foot per second lost. not the 3gr that a lightweight arrow will do.

if i didnt have 2 bows and want them all to have interchangeable 125gr broadheads, i think i'd be shooting the 685gr arrows with the heavy bow, since 263 is still plenty fast. but i really dont want to buy 2 sets of broadheads, so i'll stick with the 125s. but it was a fun test. i'm not sure of the increase in FOC by adding the weight to the front only, but with the 125gr its right at 17.5%


for my 70# D340 i have chrono'd a few arrows and you can see the efficiency going up as well:
350gr arrow @ 335 fps
505gr arrow @ 285 fps
634gr arrow @ 253 fps


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## mitchellbk (Mar 23, 2014)

Henro,

Thanks for the great thread. I'm trying to duplicate your arrow setup to see how it shoots with my 2013 Quest Drive 29"/70#. What's the shaft size for the Easton X7 footing? I understand they are cut to 2.5", just unsure on how to match with the OD diameter of the GT Kinetic 200. Are you JB welding them? Also what brass rings are you using between the field point and shaft? Where can I get those?


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

if you're using kinetic 200s, like i did
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2419895

i used both 2014 and i think 2013 to see which one gave the best fit. i think i ended up with the 2014.

to match, take the size of aluminum: 2014. that is 20/64" OD and 14thou wall thickness. so to get the ID
20/64 - .028 = 0.2875"


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## Absolute Archer (Aug 29, 2013)

cooperjd said:


> just to add yet another example of a bows efficiency going up with a heavier arrow.
> 
> bow: 78# D350, 30"
> arrow: GT kinetic chaos 200
> ...


I have not read the hole thread so not sure if you tried this yet or not, but I would like to offer another cool test for you.

Take those same three arrow combo's above and shoot them threw your crono at 50 yards. You might be really surprised at the arrow speed differences.


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## Absolute Archer (Aug 29, 2013)

This test would be a really cool poll. It would be really interesting to see what everyone's guesses are on the different speeds for each arrow weight @ 50 yards.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

I'll see what I can do. That sounds good. I have shot my 505gr arrows out of my 70#bow at a bunch of distances to check speed loss but only one weight. I'll shoot the 634 and 684 grainers at several distances and see what we come up with


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## Absolute Archer (Aug 29, 2013)

cooperjd said:


> I'll see what I can do. That sounds good. I have shot my 505gr arrows out of my 70#bow at a bunch of distances to check speed loss but only one weight. I'll shoot the 634 and 684 grainers at several distances and see what we come up with


Shoot the 505 against the 360 and see what happens.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

dont have those anymore. the only arrows i currently own are 505 and 634gr (plus the heavier tips for the heavy ones). this weekend or next week when i get back to the range i'll shoot and chrono a bunch and see what i come up with.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

*Current heavy build is pretty much complete*

Well, after a very long time, due to work, work, and more work, plus a hospital ER visit for my wife, replacing our home hot water system and a very close call of nearly getting pneumonia, I finally have some new pics and data for my new heavy bow ammo. The initial shooting experience was very gratifying I must say.

1) Shaft:
GT Kinetic XT Big Game 200: 
(cut length = 30.0"): 349.0 grains total shaft weight

2) Tip Adapter/Insert:
Gold Tip Accu-Tough insert (25-gr)
Tuffhead stainless steel adapter(100-gr)

3) External Footing:
2.0" Easton Eclipse X7 2014: 20-gr

4) Broadhead:
Grizzly Kodiak 170-gr, .050" thick blade

5) Nock:
GT Accu-Tough Kinetic, 12.0-gr

6) Fletching:
3-each Gateway 3" shield cut feathers, 2.3-gr each (8.0-gr total weight of 3)

TOTAL WEIGHT: 684-gr
FOC: 22.96%
Bow specs: Bear Agenda 6 - 28.5" DL, 63# DW
K/E: 80.03
Mo: .6959

Spine match, according to OT2, indicates this setup to be overspined by .058. As mentioned above, my first shooting impressions were very pleasing, not giving any indications of being dynamically overspined. Given that I believe I have some room for upping the front end weight, which I might do later by buying 225-gr Tuffhead broadheads.

While deciding what components to use, particularly the insert and broad adapter, I ran across some interesting threads on AT and Tradgang in which several guys building arrows for African and Asian buffalo hunts discussed their experience with different broadhead adapters and inserts. During part of this one thread, Joe Furlong (from Tuffhead) and Ed Ashby whom we all know, chimed in with their respective advice as to how to increase the strength of the broadhead, insert and screw-in adapter to be less likely to bend or break upon heavy bone impact. Joe said his observations, especially with heavy arrows (650 and higher grain weight) is that the weak point becomes the screw-in post that goes into the insert, with the weakest area being where the post attaches to the base of the tapered adapter ferrule, even with steel adapters. I looked closely at my mild steel adapters, inside and out, and came to the conclusion that this area does indeed present a relatively thin and potentially weak area that could be prone to bending and breaking. Joe went on to recommend using a glue on insert/adapter combo, and getting the best results when also using external footing with this. This eliminates the adapter post and replaces the insert and consequently the weak adapter post. Ed Ashby chimed in and agreed the insert/adapter combo was currently the best and strongest method for strengthening this area. They both agreed that good quality titanium adapters were another good alternative, although much more expensive and still not quite as strong, then stainless steel adapters coming in 3rd.

I bought some 100-gr insert/adapter combos but in the end decided to go with stainless steel adapters for the convenience of being able to switch between field points and broadheads much easier. Otherwise the choice, using insert/adapters, would be to heat the adapter, remove the currently glued on tip and heat again to glue on a different tip. If I were to leave a set of arrows configured with broadheads only I would definitely go the insert/adapter route and get another set of arrows for field points only, again with insert/adapters. The photos below show some of these adapters along with the Grizzly Kodiak broadhead I decided to go with for now. As you'll notice, the brass insert/adapter has a solid ferrule and the insert portion, which is hollow, has considerably thicker walls than either mild steel (black) or stainless steel (silver) adapter. The stainless steel adapter post has a much thicker homogenous metal area than the mild steel adapter, which you can see from the front view. I'm hoping the stainless steel version will provide enough strength for anything my arrows will hunt, big game or otherwise. I can't wait for the fall hunting seasons to get here and hopefully put some animals down with these.


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## mag3 (Feb 17, 2015)

Quick question for those that have footed their arrow's. How much oversize from the OD of the arrow are you going to the ID of the alluminum shaft? I am looking at the Carnivore 250's with a Ø0.303 od, easton has the 2219 which I believe comes out to Ø0.305 ID. Is that enough clearance, or do you need more?

Also, how much length past the insert lenght do you need? My current arrows are ending roughly 1.75-2" past my rest. Would you increase the lenght of the new arrows slightly to make sure the footing clears the rest? 
Thanks


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

your footer will need to clear the rest, for sure. as far as by how much, that depends on how long you wanna make your footers. i put tape on my arrows and draw in the mirror and keep adjusting the tape to see, it would be way easier with a friend with a white sharpie to just make a dot 1/2" or so in front of my rest for me...but anyway... keep them in front and you'll be good. the QC of your carbon arrow may mean very slight differences from one arrow to the next when you're looking at the .00X dimensions. 

i used a 2014 al over a 0.281" carbon shaft. so i had an ID of 0.2845 with a difference of 0.0035 and it worked fine. i ordered 2 aluminum arrows that were very close so i could test fit them both and pick the one that fit the best.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

Looks like cooperjd's arrows and footing cold be the same as mine - GT Kinetic 200 spine with Easton Eclipse X7 2014 for footing. My experience was this size footing was a close but not snug fit over the shaft. I left my shafts uncut, leaving them at the factory 30" length so I had more than adequate bare shaft behind the footing so there's no possibility the footing will hit the rest at full draw. One thing I also do, regardless of whether they're cut or not, is to run the insert and nock ends on my FAST (Fletched Arrow Squaring Tool) to get both ends absolutely square to the shaft so the insert and whatever tip is used, as well as nock, are both going to be aligned with the shaft, to help each finished arrow shoot as good and repeatable as possible. Like henro, I also put each piece of footing into my power drill and run each end lightly against a metal file to square and finish each end and put a slight chamfer around the outer edges, both for appearance and so they are less likely to snag anything they might contact.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

How are these new ones working out, Henro?


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Finally a thread that understands the importance of heavy arrows here is my heavy arrow build http://traviswdalton.com/2015/06/25/alaska-bowhunting-supply/


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Been rebuilding a boat and fishing last few months so haven't touched the bow in a bit... I need to pick it back up and start shooting soon though.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Is it possible to foot a tapered shaft like the grizzlystik?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hidden By Design said:


> Is it possible to foot a tapered shaft like the grizzlystik?


They're not tapered on the business end so yes.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

henro said:


> They're not tapered on the business end so yes.


Email from ABS

Travis,

This is all I have right now.

ID All - 
Point end - .286"
Nock end - .214"

ED All -
175 - .366"
250 - .350"
330 - .346"
450 - .336"

I have a request in for the specks on the ED nock end.

Taper starts at the point end and is continuous to the nock end.

Internally for the first 7-inches the diameter is parallel. Only internally.

External footings must be tapered.

Internal footing must terminate in a parabolic taper.

Todd Smith


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ok then guess those are different than the AD shafts I had. If still made by same guy you couldn't pay me to use those POS.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

These are made by Alaska bowhunting supply. Any experience with them?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Hidden By Design said:


> These are made by Alaska bowhunting supply. Any experience with them?


No I don't but I was under the impression Arrow Dynamics makes them for ABS.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Could be I don't know but I can say they are weak on the nock end any hard hit cracks them I'm going to make a bushing to hopefully fix that. I wanted to foot them but I don't guess that's possible.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

What about internal footing?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Don't know.


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## wwallace (May 24, 2015)

Easton XX78 Super Slam 2317/.300 , 200 grain VPA Terminator 3-Blade , 5" Shield Cut Feathers. 680 grains total.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Hey Henro,

Got back 3 weeks ago.
The VAP 250 build I bought from you resulted in 4 shots with 4 African victims in 4 days of hunting.
I used a 200Gr single bevel Cutthroats for the 1st time in Africa. 668gr at 250Fps.
These heavy arrows have had a devastating effect. I couldn't be happier.

2 springbuck rams -complete pass through's.
1 impala ram -complete pass through on a heavy quartering shot. Entry in front of back leg and exit at the throat.
1 zebra- Arrow held in by fletching only on a slightly quartering shot. 

I'll re-use 3 out of 4 arrows and all 4 BH's next week when i go back for 9 more days of hunting.
This time I'm hoping to use Ashby arrows on Eland, Gemsbok and Wilderbees. 
Can't wait.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Wow that's badass! Congrats on the hunt and please post some pics! If you can include pics of the arrows and heads too that'd be great! Congrats again!


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Here you go
.
View attachment 2484665

View attachment 2484705

View attachment 2484713

View attachment 2484769


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Henro,
You done fishing and gearing up for October or what?
I removed my hero pics from the previous post as I'm not much for that type of stuff.
Here is a link to a thread I did on penetration and damage using your arrows I bought.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2692618


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> You done fishing and gearing up for October or what?
> I removed my hero pics from the previous post as I'm not much for that type of stuff.
> Here is a link to a thread I did on penetration and damage using your arrows I bought.
> ...


Haha no I've been killing lake trout I can't get off the lake when I'm off! I have got my cameras out though. I just need to finish tuning and sight in. I have until September 12th opener to do it. Laker fishing this last week was best it's been all year so I'm still after them lol. I'll read that thread soon thanks for posting it!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> You done fishing and gearing up for October or what?
> I removed my hero pics from the previous post as I'm not much for that type of stuff.
> Here is a link to a thread I did on penetration and damage using your arrows I bought.
> ...


Ok the bow is ready to rip for the opener on September 12th! 746gr with 24.3% FOC is gonna have a hard time stopping with an Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel on the end at 242fps! The bow is stupid quiet with this arrow.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Ok the bow is ready to rip for the opener on September 12th! 746gr with 24.3% FOC is gonna have a hard time stopping at 242fps! The bow is stupid quiet with this arrow.
> 
> View attachment 2801410


Boom goes the dynamite


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> Boom goes the dynamite


Go big or go home!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I just ordered 3 packs of the new 250gr Cutthroat right wing single bevels to compare to the Abowyers too. I think I'm set on broadheads for a long time lol.

http://cutthroatbroadheads.com/screw-in.html


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> I just ordered 3 packs of the new 250gr Cutthroat right wing single bevels to compare to the Abowyers too. I think I'm set on broadheads for a long time lol.
> 
> http://cutthroatbroadheads.com/screw-in.html
> 
> View attachment 2801674


Said every broad head junky ever


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> Said every broad head junky ever


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Cutthroats are tough as heck. Hard to beat a single piece of machined steel.
You'll need to do a little fine honing with the KME and you'll be good to go.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Cutthroats are tough as heck. Hard to beat a single piece of machined steel.
> You'll need to do a little fine honing with the KME and you'll be good to go.


Sounds good I'll put the KME to use. Here's a side by side. I think these are gonna be tough to beat as the 2 toughest screw-in heads on the market. Both have lifetime guarantees. Both brands now offer 200gr and 250gr.


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## Windsor (Oct 5, 2012)

First off, thanks to everyone who's contributing to this topic. I've been reading this one and a few of the other high FOC build topics and am going to try one for myself. I've adjusted my draw weight and length (it was too short) so I need new arrows. Also, before I had my draw length increased, broadheads would sit in-font of the riser, now they sit just over the shelf if I keep them at 29.5". My bow, Elite Pure, doesn't have the biggest window, 7/8" from riser, 1" from shelf, so I can't use a broadhead that close to or over 2" in total width so I'm leaning toward longer arrow that puts the broad head out around 31".

I probably read this in one of the many, many pages on these topics but I can't remember it and with the search function not working... what is an acceptable minimum fps? 240? Lower?

For instance my setup is Elite Pure, 30.5" @ 60lbs. I measured and entered everything I could to get an accuratish reading. According to OT2, if I go with a BE x-Impact 300 cut at 28.5", total grain weight of 532 (250gn up front), I'd be getting 253fps w/ 20.7% FOC. That's just below the mid point of "good" for spine. I think that arrow is a little short but with the outsert adding another inch in length I'd be a little over 29.5" (nock to carbon) before adding the broadhead. 

I'd like the spine to be more on the stiff side so if I were to go with BE Rampage 250 cut at 30", total grain weight of 644 (325gn up front), I'd be getting 230fps w/ 22.4% FOC. OT2 says that would put me on the stiff side of good, just into the yellow.

That's a 20fps difference. Does it matter? Am I over thinking it (analysis paralysis) and just need to shoot them? And going back to arrow length, where does your broadhead sit?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Build it. Shoot it. Decide for yourself what's acceptable.

Wouldn't bother me and I would want the heavier arrow.


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## cap4382 (Feb 10, 2015)

Awesome thread. I'm in the process of figuring out a traditional high foc wood arrow for my 55lb bear grizzly. Using the arrow calculator on 3 rivers, it says I need an 85lb shaft to be properly spined with a 190 grain head at 30" shaft, giving me only around 15% foc. Anyone else have any thoughts on how to get the foc up using woodies? My draw length is 29"and have been told by numerous people to stick with as long of a shaft as possible for recurves. I'm sure it would be much easier to get the higher foc with carbon or aluminum, but I really like the woodies. Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

cap4382 said:


> Awesome thread. I'm in the process of figuring out a traditional high foc wood arrow for my 55lb bear grizzly. Using the arrow calculator on 3 rivers, it says I need an 85lb shaft to be properly spined with a 190 grain head at 30" shaft, giving me only around 15% foc. Anyone else have any thoughts on how to get the foc up using woodies? My draw length is 29"and have been told by numerous people to stick with as long of a shaft as possible for recurves. I'm sure it would be much easier to get the higher foc with carbon or aluminum, but I really like the woodies. Any thoughts or suggestions?


Sorry couldn't help you there. Better off asking this at tradgang.com.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The Cutthroat heads have arrived and after sharpening on the KME are ready to go. I'm gonna start hunting this year with the Abowyer as my primary head and go from there. 

So many choices...


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Henro, how are you liking the Abowyers and the Cutthroats? I would like to find a single bevel head that is up to the quality of the VPA penetrator.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Henro, how are you liking the Abowyers and the Cutthroats? I would like to find a single bevel head that is up to the quality of the VPA penetrator.


Cutthroat is the same head in single bevel basically.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Those cut throats looks awesome probably gonna have to have some myself!


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

You got these things bloody yet?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I passed on so many small bucks this year... Didn't take any does as I still have meat in the freezer. Still have some time left to kill...


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

henro said:


> I passed on so many small bucks this year... Didn't take any does as I still have meat in the freezer. Still have some time left to kill...


I hear you. Only been seeing smaller bucks. I also haven't seen much of a rut yet? Thankfully, season was extended to 11/28 this year in my area. Had 4 bucks walk by yesterday about 5 mins apart, so that was a good sign.
Good luck.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Longbow42 said:


> I hear you. Only been seeing smaller bucks. I also haven't seen much of a rut yet? Thankfully, season was extended to 11/28 this year in my area. Had 4 bucks walk by yesterday about 5 mins apart, so that was a good sign.
> Good luck.


Yeah this year I had 8 days in a row off from November 1st-8th and never saw a shooter. Bunch of scrubs and 2 year olds. High temps killed a lot of daylight activity. It's been real hard to motivate myself again after that. Haven't been in a tree yet since.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Henro, you need to send those Cutthroats through something....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Henro, you need to send those Cutthroats through something....


Trust me I've been trying... Been in the woods a lot this year just no luck on any shooters coming by.


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## wildernessninja (Aug 9, 2013)

Tagging this thread


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## BGagner (Oct 21, 2014)

This is an awesome thread, seen it around so finally going to tag it for reference later


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Bringing this thread back from the dead with a new build. Selling the Full Throttle and will be looking for a 350ibo replacement that’s a little more shooter friendly. 99% sure it’s gonna be the PSE Xpedite 80-90% letoff at 29/70. I just have to shoot one but the specs and reviews look like exactly what I want. Also like the Hoyt Carbon Turbo models as I’ve shot my brother’s Nitrum Turbo and liked it. 

I’m putting the horse before the cart but I’ve already started tinkering with arrows and figured out the build. Here are the details:

For a PSE Xpedite I should have the same carbon to carbon clearance due to same BH(5.25”)so 26.5” will do. I’m using a short external footer to protect the tip end of the shaft by Tophat so 26-13/16” will do. If I go with the Hoyt and it’s 5-7/8” BH
27.5” should clear the rest with the Tophat Protector Ring. 

The arrow shaft I’m using is the Black Eagle Spartan .250 spine. With its .289” OD the 7.45mm Tophat fits just slightly loose. Optimally a 2118 or 2011 aluminum shaft would be tighter but they’re not made. The 7.45mm fits good for my liking as tested for now. 

The guts of this arrow is where it’s strength should be. I’m using the SS Spartan insert(28gr) connected to a 4” Gold Tip Pierce 500 by the Gold Tip .166” kinetic insert. The Pierce 500 is .222” OD while the Spartan 250 has a .224” ID so fitment is perfect. The two inserts are joined by 8-32 thread. I’ve just cut threads off a few field points for now, but I also ordered 5/16” long SS 8-32 thread from eBay. The end of this all is completed with the Tophat ring. This whole piece weighs ~90gr. I’ll be shooting the same 250gr Abowyer Brown Bear or Cutthroat single bevels. 

For fletching I’m going to try the Flex Fletch SK300 vanes and Nockturnal X nocks. 

I’ve built a couple to test fitment and they come in ~660gr with 26.4% FOC. I think this build should be pretty bulletproof and real bone splitter. The internal footer should really protect against deflection. 

Here’s some pics of what I’ve done so far:

































This should be a slow update as were entering gun season and I have some bow shopping to do. My Full Throttle is for sale in the classifieds if anyone is interested. The arrow build for it can be included in the sale if someone wants to make an offer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Bringing this thread back from the dead with a new build. Selling the Full Throttle and will be looking for a 350ibo replacement that’s a little more shooter friendly. 99% sure it’s gonna be the PSE Xpedite 80-90% letoff at 29/70. I just have to shoot one but the specs and reviews look like exactly what I want. Also like the Hoyt Carbon Turbo models as I’ve shot my brother’s Nitrum Turbo and liked it.
> 
> I’m putting the horse before the cart but I’ve already started tinkering with arrows and figured out the build. Here are the details:
> 
> ...


There will be blood!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> There will be blood!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

That is a BEAST of a setup!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> That is a BEAST of a setup!


If someone wanted to go more extreme with foc and adding weight the groundwork is there. I need to keep that weight on the back for spine requirements and I want to shoot a lighted nock. You could save about 15gr with 2” feathers and another 10gr with the standard nocks. Add more weight to the front and 30% or more is doable, especially with less draw weight, shorter draw length or a slower bow. If someone doesn’t want to use the Tophats and make a regular external footer the 2117 is just about the same tolerances. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Update: After shooting the Triax, RX1, RX1 Turbo, Halon 32 and Xpedite I’ve ordered a 29/70 PSE Xpedite today through Breathn with his strings! Should be about a 3 week turnaround from PSE then the fun begins. 


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## 496 nova (Nov 17, 2012)

Cant wait to see what that bow will do with the arrows you build.


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

That is a whole lot of "Some Assembly Required" right there! It looks good too. Are those Black Eagle Spartan shafts just rebranded Black Eagle Rampage shafts in 250 spine? They have the same O.D. as my 250 Rampages.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Stab 'em said:


> That is a whole lot of "Some Assembly Required" right there! It looks good too. Are those Black Eagle Spartan shafts just rebranded Black Eagle Rampage shafts in 250 spine? They have the same O.D. as my 250 Rampages.


The hard part was figuring out what would fit and finding components that would work. Assembly is really simple. Also no the Rampage are not the same as the Spartan, they have different dimensions. These are slightly thicker and also have a bigger inside diameter. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

496 nova said:


> Cant wait to see what that bow will do with the arrows you build.


I’ll get back to you soon about the Big Game 200s if you’re still interested. 


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## pinwheeled (Apr 27, 2008)

I like this thread


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Good to see your still tinkering henro hope you've been well.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Good to see your still tinkering henro hope you've been well.


The original facepalm crew! You too forty!


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## 496 nova (Nov 17, 2012)

henro said:


> 496 nova said:
> 
> 
> > Cant wait to see what that bow will do with the arrows you build.
> ...



Sounds good Henro im still interested. Got my mr5 tuned and at 88lbs lol.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

henro said:


> The original facepalm crew! You too forty!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol, goodtimes :thumb:


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## fozziebear2000 (Feb 28, 2017)

I’m carrying my Mathews Creed set at 52 lbs. next week in AZ, for Javelina. I figured with the lower draw weight it would be a great time to go Ashby while building arrows. 

Here’s the build spec.s that I went with:

Black Eagle X Impact 200 cut to 29-1/2”
BE aluminum outsert
2” long 5/32 brass tubing used as an insert, to feather the tranistion from outsert to shaft 
2” blazer vanes
250 gn Cutthroat bh

These arrows fly well and pattern the same at all yardages that I have shot them, as bare shafts, vaned with field points, and with the Cutt’s. 

Total weight 630 gn with factory nocks, FOC ~ 24%. 

I plan to add collars and nocturnals, but it’s time to head to the hills for now. 


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

henro said:


> The hard part was figuring out what would fit and finding components that would work. Assembly is really simple. Also no the Rampage are not the same as the Spartan, they have different dimensions. These are slightly thicker and also have a bigger inside diameter.


Best of luck with your setup [seriously, my apologies for being critical in the past] 

How do the Lighted noks work in your heavy arrow setups? Have you had any regular noks break? You've experimented with this a lot....it appears you have found the weak spots in some of these arrow systems, yes?

I've had multiple older Nokturnals [5 yrs ago or so] break in 10-20 practice shots with just a 500 gr arrow in a 70# bow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

For ****s and giggles I wanted to see what this build would need to get to the magical 30% EFOC mark. I remeasured using a slightly longer carbon to carbon length of 26-7/8”. Adding weight incrementally it took an additional 200gr(450gr total) on the tip using 3 2” Trueflight feathers for fletching but still using a lighted nock to bring the FOC to 30.6%. Adding just 100gr raised it to 27.9% with the same configuration. I measured again with no additional weight to the tip and the 3 2” feathers and FOC was 24%. Total arrow weight at 30.6% FOC was 844gr and 648gr at 24% with the 2” feathers. I’ll remeasure my actual build’s FOC when I get the SK300 vanes fletched. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

So to hit the 30% mark this build consisted of the following:

26-7/8” carbon to carbon Spartan .250 spine
90gr insert total + 450gr tip weight
Nockturnal X nock + 3 2” Trueflight feathers + Spartan R nock bushing

844gr total weight

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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

fozziebear2000 said:


> I’m carrying my Mathews Creed set at 52 lbs. next week in AZ, for Javelina. I figured with the lower draw weight it would be a great time to go Ashby while building arrows.
> 
> Here’s the build spec.s that I went with:
> 
> ...


Well, you're certainly not going to have any problem with javelinas with that setup if you hit them well.


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

Here comes the BOOM!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

496 nova said:


> Cant wait to see what that bow will do with the arrows you build.


Good luck with my old build bud! Your heavy draw speed bow setups should make for some devastating kills with them!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I won’t know exact length the new bow will require for correct spine until testing but I built a few arrows for just that to send to Breathn. The internal footer may make these stiffer than desired so I’ve built 3 lengths for now. The shortest which I believe will work is pictured below. Throat of nock to end of the shaft not including the exposed insert tip is 27”. This arrow in full hunting trim is 654gr and 22.7% FOC with the Nockturnal and broadhead installed. The new bow is going to have a QAD MTX and Spot Hogg 3-pin Fast Eddie as well. 



































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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

henro said:


> I won’t know exact length the new bow will require for correct spine until testing but I built a few arrows for just that to send to Breathn. The internal footer may make these stiffer than desired so I’ve built 3 lengths for now. The shortest which I believe will work is pictured below. Throat of nock to end of the shaft not including the exposed insert tip is 27”. This arrow in full hunting trim is 654gr and 22.7% FOC with the Nockturnal and broadhead installed. The new bow is going to have a QAD MTX and Spot Hogg 3-pin Fast Eddie as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Still waiting on my bow to come in but I’ve got an idea to simplify the insert/footer design that I’m going to try. I ordered some 1” long 8-32 x 1/8” stainless set screws from eBay. I’m going to try glueing these directly into the GT Pierce 500 shaft with just enough thread sticking out to connect to the back of the Spartan SS insert. This should eliminate the need for the Pierce insert. I’m hoping the threading will be enough for glue to hold the set screw inside the Pierce 500. The outside of the Pierce will still have glue applied on it so it sticks to the inside of the Spartan shaft as well so I don’t think this will be an issue. 

I also ordered some Sparatan brass insert weights in 30 and 75 grain to play around with tip weight once I get the bow back. The set screw should still be able to screw into the back of these as well. After reading some Ashby internal footer testing about how they stiffen the spine so much that you can go to a weaker spine shaft I will probably need to do a bit of playing around with tip weight, length and maybe even try a .300. It’s all going to depend on how stiff the internal footer of Piece 500 makes it...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I also ordered some 2117 and 2314 aluminum shafts to try some single and double footers if I can go longer on the arrow length. 










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## Stick&String96 (May 2, 2013)

Looks good to me!


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Henro,
Do you think these internal footers will hold up even better than the external ones over brass inserts like on the GT 200 builds?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Henro,
> Do you think these internal footers will hold up even better than the external ones over brass inserts like on the GT 200 builds?


From reading what Ashby tested I believe so. I think a combination of both an internal and external footer is probably going to build the strongest arrow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The new bow is in! Breathn built and tuned 452x strings have the BE Spartan 250 656gr arrows shooting 258fps at 29” and 72.6lbs. 











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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Nothing stopping those arrows from that bow. Firebreathn!


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> The new bow is in! Breathn built and tuned 452x strings have the BE Spartan 250 656gr arrows shooting 258fps at 29” and 72.6lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There will be blood !!!!


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Sounds like a killer combination of numbers. Well done.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Nothing stopping those arrows from that bow. Firebreathn!


[emoji482][emoji91][emoji482][emoji91] 367fps adjusted ibo from a much smoother shooting cam system and 85% letoff! Love me some heavy arrow weight efficiency!



bambikiller said:


> There will be blood !!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Team Overkill style!



plecavalier said:


> Sounds like a killer combination of numbers. Well done.


Thanks I will prob try to tweak the final insert design little by little but I think what I have for now should be very strong. 


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> [emoji482][emoji91][emoji482][emoji91] 367fps adjusted ibo from a much smoother shooting cam system and 85% letoff! Love me some heavy arrow weight efficiency!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see where you mention an internal footer but no mention of what it is. I'm a huge fan of internal footers. Can you provide your solution?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> I see where you mention an internal footer but no mention of what it is. I'm a huge fan of internal footers. Can you provide your solution?


See post #836


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> See post #836
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. Very nice. I have a suggestion for you. PM sent.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> Thanks. Very nice. I have a suggestion for you. PM sent.


Thanks pm replied. Feel free to text me. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ethics Archery is going to design me a solid one-piece SS Duplex insert to replace my assortment of connected components. I’ll post more details once they figure out final specs. My target weight is 75gr plus the 4” carbon footer(24gr). 


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Ethics Archery is going to design me a solid one-piece SS Duplex insert to replace my assortment of connected components. I’ll post more details once they figure out final specs. My target weight is 75gr plus the 4” carbon footer(24gr).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hell yea brother


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> Ethics Archery is going to design me a solid one-piece SS Duplex insert to replace my assortment of connected components. I’ll post more details once they figure out final specs. My target weight is 75gr plus the 4” carbon footer(24gr).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're going to love their work. Tolerances are tight. Good bunch of guys over there.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

I'm going the other way.......lol. 64 pounds/565 grains/2219(no footer's needed) and a whopping 218 FPS. I'm using a 3:1 Steel Force Single bevel at least to start. I personally think the head and arrows will be plenty strong if not I'll adjust if needed.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The guys at Ethics Archery don’t mess around. They already designed and built my custom sized Duplex insert out of stainless steel! These look sweet! I’ll be using this in conjunction with the TopHat collar as well. 





















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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Those look good. However, I bet, a certain someone from a certain company will likely be in contact with Ethics Archery either wanted royalties or a C&D letter. 

His name rhymes with George.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> Those look good. However, I bet, a certain someone from a certain company will likely be in contact with Ethics Archery either wanted royalties or a C&D letter.
> 
> His name rhymes with George.


Don’t care. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ethics already built and shipped my order of 4 dozen inserts to me which arrived today! Got 2 dozen more BE Spartan 250 .001’s and 4 GT Pierce 500’s for footers from Lancaster as well. 

Here’s the weights on the components: 
Ethics custom SS Duplex Insert: 82gr
4” GT Pierce 500: 28gr
TopHat Protector Ring 7.45mm : 6gr
Total front tip weight with 250gr head: 366gr





































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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

That was quick 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> That was quick
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From talking back and forth about specs, custom designed, built, shipped and arrived at my door in just 3 days! These things fit like a glove! With the slightly longer outside portion of the insert and actually having my bow in hand to check clearances I was able to cut the new shaft shorter at 26” carbon to carbon to increase FOC. I took off about 7/16” of carbon. I’ll do some testing with bare shafts and fletched when the weather gets a little nicer and the 15” of snow we just got melts. 

This pic shows the difference in length outside the shaft of the Duplex and Spartan inserts. The TopHat collar fit over perfectly. 











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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> From talking back and forth about specs, custom designed, built, shipped and arrived at my door in just 3 days! These things fit like a glove! With the slightly longer outside portion of the insert and actually having my bow in hand to check clearances I was able to cut the new shaft shorter at 26” carbon to carbon to increase FOC. I took off about 7/16” of carbon. I’ll do some testing with bare shafts and fletched when the weather gets a little nicer and the 15” of snow we just got melts.
> 
> This pic shows the difference in length outside the shaft of the Duplex and Spartan inserts. The TopHat collar fit over perfectly.
> 
> ...


Looks great 


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

Are those the spinning inserts, or have you tried those?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Built one complete shaft. Found that some of my Abowyer heads have different length threading and some won’t seat all the way on the insert. It’s only the newer ones I bought from when they went to 260gr to 250gr weight. The Cutthroat’s don’t have an issue. I’m gonna call Abowyer tomorrow and see what they say. The difference is in the ferrule above the threads. 


























I weighed a complete arrow with 250gr head and Nockturnal which came to 680gr now. 

FOC on the complete hunting arrow is:











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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Kaizoku said:


> Those look good. However, I bet, a certain someone from a certain company will likely be in contact with Ethics Archery either wanted royalties or a C&D letter.
> 
> His name rhymes with George.


Nope. It's a style of insert not a copyright.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> Ethics already built and shipped my order of 4 dozen inserts to me which arrived today! Got 2 dozen more BE Spartan 250 .001’s and 4 GT Pierce 500’s for footers from Lancaster as well.
> 
> Here’s the weights on the components:
> Ethics custom SS Duplex Insert: 82gr
> ...


Looking good! That's a solid built right there.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Pretty exciting stuff, that's the very first carbon based build of the Duplex Insert.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I spoke to Larry at Abowyer today and he told me to send back the heads that don’t fit and he’ll take a look to see what he can do to them. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Larry called me today to tell me he was able to shave off some of the ferrule on the heads I sent back so hopefully they’ll fully seat in my inserts now. I forgot the measurement he took off but it was very minimal and said it would only shave 1.5gr of weight which is great. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Reviving this thread. Here’s a buck I killed this year with my new build. There was no bone impact to show any damage/destruction as the shot was a little high/back and just under the spine- slicing the main artery. The buck died in sight no more than 30 yards from where I shot it.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> That is a BEAST of a setup!


 I made one post on your 36 page thread and it was positive....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> I made one post on your 36 page thread and it was positive....


Either you were drunk, you’re drunk now, or both. Don’t care either way. Move on. 


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

At least youre finally killing things, congrats on that.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> At least youre finally killing things, congrats on that.


Hey stalker you can move along now. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Here’s a yearly update with this build. I shot this buck Saturday with my PSE Xpedite and BE Spartan arrow build at 20 yards broadside. This deer only went 20yds, stopped and tipped over stone cold dead in less than 10 seconds. This was the fastest bow kill I’ve had personally. The shot was a perfect 10-ring in the heart and the arrow was a complete pass thru with it lodged through a small log laying on the ground that was behind the deer. The single bevel actually split the log right in the middle just like it would on bone. The whole arrow still looked perfect other than a small bit of tip curl which I’m sure Abowyer will warranty since these are lifetime coverage. The entrance side was on his right and the exit on his left. Reminder this is a 680gr arrow at 249fps with 25% FOC. They have internal & external footings with a carbon shaft inside and custom Ethics Archery Duplex inserts and are tipped with a 250gr Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel. 











































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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Here’s a yearly update with this build. I shot this buck Saturday with my PSE Xpedite and BE Spartan arrow build at 20 yards broadside. This deer only went 20yds, stopped and tipped over stone cold dead in less than 10 seconds. This was the fastest bow kill I’ve had personally. The shot was a perfect 10-ring in the heart and the arrow was a complete pass thru with it lodged through a small log laying on the ground that was behind the deer. The single bevel actually split the log right in the middle just like it would on bone. The whole arrow still looked perfect other than a small bit of tip curl which I’m sure Abowyer will warranty since these are lifetime coverage. The entrance side was on his right and the exit on his left. Reminder this is a 680gr arrow at 249fps with 25% FOC. They have internal & external footings with a carbon shaft inside and custom Ethics Archery Duplex inserts and are tipped with a 250gr Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Way to get it done


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> Way to get it done
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks brother!


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

Nice buck!!! Did he break his browtines off already, or did he have no brows and skip straight to G2’s?

Arrow still looks perfect and worked exactly as it should. Congrats!


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

Very nice.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

Congrats man!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BigFish7 said:


> Nice buck!!! Did he break his browtines off already, or did he have no brows and skip straight to G2’s?
> 
> Arrow still looks perfect and worked exactly as it should. Congrats!





cgs1967 said:


> Very nice.





cooperjd said:


> Congrats man!


Thanks guys. [emoji482] He never grew brows tines unfortunately. I had pics of him last year at 2 years old and he never had them then either. 


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## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

henro said:


> Here’s a yearly update with this build. I shot this buck Saturday with my PSE Xpedite and BE Spartan arrow build at 20 yards broadside. This deer only went 20yds, stopped and tipped over stone cold dead in less than 10 seconds. This was the fastest bow kill I’ve had personally. The shot was a perfect 10-ring in the heart and the arrow was a complete pass thru with it lodged through a small log laying on the ground that was behind the deer. The single bevel actually split the log right in the middle just like it would on bone. The whole arrow still looked perfect other than a small bit of tip curl which I’m sure Abowyer will warranty since these are lifetime coverage. The entrance side was on his right and the exit on his left. Reminder this is a 680gr arrow at 249fps with 25% FOC. They have internal & external footings with a carbon shaft inside and custom Ethics Archery Duplex inserts and are tipped with a 250gr Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats on a great buck Henro...heck of an arrow build.

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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

snoman4 said:


> Congrats on a great buck Henro...heck of an arrow build.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Thanks man! I really hope more people try stuff like this. This is really something you have to see for your self to see how strong this arrow is. 


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