# Zero float



## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Is it really possible and if so how,do we get there? I can get there about 20% of,the time mostly have a float around the 10'ring I want to Achieve hold inside the baby x at 20 yards.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

I can't say that my hold is always dead still. I believe the end of the front rod would speak otherwise if I did. However, I will say this. I don't focus on movement, I focus on a precise point on the target. I am not alarmed by movement if it occurs because the focus is on the desired point of impact. This focus (I am convinced) is one of the steps in achieving what you are looking for.

Most of the archery world chases a different front to back weight ratio, stabilizer lengths, back bar configurations and angles to calm the hold, oh, and don't forget draw length. Obviously more mass weight can slow the movement, maybe even limit it, as can the proper draw length. Certainly, there is benefit to the study of the effects of these inputs into the shot. However, (in my opinion) the best way to limit sight movement is to practice your firing Process to the extent that you are 100% comfortable with it. I am convinced that most really adverse sight movement comes from being uncomfortable with the firing Process. Get comfortable (confident) with your firing Process your movement goes to near zero. Silly...right?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I can't say actually "zero", but many people have a short period of almost no movement in their typical hold while aiming time frame. most of the training drills that have to do with shot timing, such as the "shot window drill", is all about training your shot to break, inside that small 2 or 3 second "window" of least movement. they work by getting your routine to get on the X before that least movement time zone appears. that is your "shot window". during that short timespan of least float range, you are most likely to produce a shot that goes in the X-ring, so you train your shot to break during that couple seconds.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

What is the shot window drill?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the shot window drill, is the drill where you have a buddy time your shots from anchor to break. and then record the times that produce an X . you will find that there will be a trend that will have an average amount of time in the shots that go well and into into the middle. this average time, is your shot window. after several rounds and a accurate average time is established, you will also notice that that average time coincides with the couple seconds that is your least float time during the shot. you then work to tailor your shot to break during that average time by letting down any time your hold goes beyond that average time. this trains your shot to break in the time that is your least float range window..


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> Is it really possible and if so how,do we get there? I can get there about 20% of,the time mostly have a float around the 10'ring I want to Achieve hold inside the baby x at 20 yards.


Me and my 4X lens and .019", there is no holding inside the baby X and 20 yards. I don't think my .010" pin would fit inside the baby X ring.

Zero float is almost a possible, but then finding the approach that eliminates much of any force. Starting above or slight above and settling in has my pin looking virtually stopped with starting execution. My pin may be "floating," but it sure looks stopped. And then I swear my pin was off and the arrow still found the X. This is more so on the 5 spot.

I don't know who replied once, but I'm thinking he was correct. 3D people should stay more with 3D than shooting spots. Granted, I had distractions yesterday, but going back and forth between a spot target and a 3D aim point was not conductive. The way I see maybe.....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I found the main difference was that in 3d , I couldn't tolerate the animal's movement in the scope. I was never a really steady holder, so my movement was always fairly big and I had to learn to trust my float much more than others. consequently, when shooting 3d I had problems when the shots were long because the movement was big, much bigger than at 20 yards.
I shot unlimited with a pin on my sight. my scores were better than with a scope, but always down about 20 from the top unlimited scores at any given tournament I shot.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I believe Tim Strickland told me that if you stay relaxed and tension free you csn shoot inside your float pattern. Its when you try to hold that you will shoot outside your float.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly, I always say the key is to learn to "relax under tension"! "over control from not relaxing" is probably the most responsible condition there is, for missed shots.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

ron w said:


> exactly, I always say the key is to learn to "relax under tension"! "over control from not relaxing" is probably the most responsible condition there is, for missed shots.


I agree with this 100%. I always equate it to trying to fall asleep. The harder you try, the worse it gets.

"Zero" float is a myth, IMO. We're humans, not robots. Sure some guys hold a lot better than others, but I'll guarantee you everyone is moving to some degree.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

So we all sort of agree, no force, relaxed gives a steadier or more zero/neutral float? 

I know being at full draw and holding too hard into the wall and having moving up to get on target is more a force action. Relaxed you can move. Coming down far easier than moving up and so forth. Relaxed is key. Removal of force is key.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> Relaxed is key. Removal of _forcing_ is key.


Fixed it for ya.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

This has been a wonderful set of replys lets see if I can get the 11 x's back now and move to the next level


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I spent a few hours the other day with a well known pro.

We worked at 30 yds......what cleaned my float up was my foot positioning and getting my shoulders in line. Which resulted in added about 3/8 an inch to draw. Then we changed up my grip and took an 1/8 back out and it was really good.

But what we learned is my shot needs to break in about 5 seconds or less any more and I broke down. It may be stamina and new to spirals. But I need to speed up release a bunch.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the shot window timing drill is exactly what will do that. everything you mentioned is exactly what the drill refines and defines.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Heading downstairs to the range now will report back


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Did not shoot much better but did Achieve more shots with zero perceived float. 
I let down the shots that had perceivable float. Felt a lot better. Now need to fix some missing variables I believe grip related.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

be careful there, letting down on what is "perceived float", can train your shot process, to distrust your float and/or not tolerate any float, leading to over controlling the bow.
you cannot stop float entirely, it's an element of the dynamics of drawing and holding a bow to shoot it. what you are are trying to do with the let down drill is teach your shot process to produce tolerable float with good form and execution, not stop or eliminate the float entirely.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

ron w said:


> be careful there, letting down on what is "perceived float", can train your shot process, to distrust your float and/or not tolerate any float, leading to over controlling the bow.
> you cannot stop float entirely, it's an element of the dynamics of drawing and holding a bow to shoot it. *what you are are trying to do with the let down drill is teach your shot process to produce tolerable float with good form and execution, not stop or eliminate the float entirely.*


I couldn't agree more. It may come off as nitpicking, but the difference here is razor thin between a good dynamic shot and a hard handed controlled shot. One is going to produce a more repeatable stress free shot where the other is going to cause you to pull your hair out.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I watch a LOT of videos of top pros, NONE have ZERO float. "Perceived float" is in the eye of the beholder. Minimizing float I feel is a worthy goal, trying to eliminate it may be counterproductive.


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

Mahly said:


> I watch a LOT of videos of top pros, NONE have ZERO float. "Perceived float" is in the eye of the beholder. Minimizing float I feel is a worthy goal, trying to eliminate it may be counterproductive.


Have you found anywhere to watch them besides on youtube at World Cup Archery or Lancaster Archery?


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

"No float" is like "no stress." We'll always have some. Otherwise we're dead. IMO, we're trying to minimize the adverse effects of either and reduce them through process to their most healthy amount. Float free; not sure we can get there. Stress free; not sure we want to get there. Sorry, for the personal philosophy.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

You are all correct let me further qualify my statement. Holding where it feels and looks steady. I use a frosted ring if the x does not stay relatively near the center ie drifts into the frost ... Too much float. If I can always see the x usually it is relatively perceived as stationary I let the shot continue and yes I am struggling to find the fine line between trying to stop it engaging muscles and lining up good form that drives natural stability.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Iowa shooter said:


> Have you found anywhere to watch them besides on youtube at World Cup Archery or Lancaster Archery?


Seeing them in person (at shoots or at the range practicing) when you can is a great addition to the above.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know I have talked about this stuff many times over the last year and usually I have a bunch of things to say but today I am struggling, I read through this thread a couple of times in the last day or so and finally I realized that right now I am shooting better than I ever have in my entire life and I have no idea what my float looks like or how big it is. Right now I am focused on one thing when I am shooting and it is to follow through into the center of the baby x on my vegas targets and that is it. I really don't care what the pin is doing because I already know that I am going to nail the little baby x regardless what my float is doing so I am not wasting time evaluating what it is doing.

Like i said I have talked and debated about this for a long time but I finally realized that I had to separate studying my float training sessions from shooting for accuracy. The moment you are aware of the float and you are evaluating it or paying attention to it you will be tempted to try and influence it and this is where so many of my poor shots came from, by stopping this I have moved on to a higher level of shooting that is so awesome I am not going back. This doesn't mean that I am not going to do some training sessions with my float pattern as my focus but not when I am shooting to score.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Well tomorrow 600 league lii give it a try. Nothing to loose the league is for me just training for vegas many good shooters there


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I've been shooting quite a bit the last few days...There's a fine line about being on the wall. I have dual limb stops, like rock, rock hard. I'm on the wall, but relaxed sort of. I get on target, pin in the middle, floating a bit, and then with easing into the wall the pin just looks like it's stopped. Seems ever so often my pin isn't center, but still finds the X.....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Padgett said:


> You know I have talked about this stuff many times over the last year and usually I have a bunch of things to say but today I am struggling, I read through this thread a couple of times in the last day or so and finally I realized that right now I am shooting better than I ever have in my entire life and I have no idea what my float looks like or how big it is. Right now I am focused on one thing when I am shooting and it is to follow through into the center of the baby x on my vegas targets and that is it. I really don't care what the pin is doing because I already know that I am going to nail the little baby x regardless what my float is doing so I am not wasting time evaluating what it is doing.
> 
> Like i said I have talked and debated about this for a long time but I finally realized that I had to separate studying my float training sessions from shooting for accuracy. The moment you are aware of the float and you are evaluating it or paying attention to it you will be tempted to try and influence it and this is where so many of my poor shots came from, by stopping this I have moved on to a higher level of shooting that is so awesome I am not going back. This doesn't mean that I am not going to do some training sessions with my float pattern as my focus but not when I am shooting to score.


 exactly, ....
when you are studying your float directly, you have a tendency to influence it, by attempting to steady it.....never really any good. your range of float can vary from day to day, even shooting session to shooting session on any given day, if you shoot say, once in the morning and once in the afternoon, or evening. basically, you get what you get, as far as float goes. 
the better your form and the better your rig fits, the better your float will be, given your head is in the right place at the time you're shooting. outside influences, of course, can contribute. coffee, sugar, alchohol, etc., all affect your nervous system and thus your float. 
if you don't trust it, you won't shoot well....if you learn to trust it, you will shoot as good as your execution will allow.
believe me, I have had to learn to trust my float, explicitly, all my life. I have a naturally large float range, so much so, that people have asked me, how I can even hit an X. my (at the time) mid 70's father in law, even asked me why I "wobble" so much, when I was at Vegas and he and my mother in law were in the stands watching me shoot. it was that apparent to them, from that distance !. 
trusting your float and good form with a good shot execution, is a state of mind that is a learned skill, that we al have to master, by understanding that the dynamics of a shot includes all these elements working to support each other. when one is weak, the rest suffers as well.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

ron w said:


> exactly, ....
> when you are studying your float directly, you have a tendency to influence it, by attempting to steady it.....never really any good. your range of float can vary from day to day, even shooting session to shooting session on any given day, if you shoot say, once in the morning and once in the afternoon, or evening. basically, you get what you get, as far as float goes.
> the better your form and the better your rig fits, the better your float will be, given your head is in the right place at the time you're shooting. outside influences, of course, can contribute. coffee, sugar, alchohol, etc., all affect your nervous system and thus your float.
> if you don't trust it, you won't shoot well....if you learn to trust it, you will shoot as good as your execution will allow.
> ...


Yup...... I've learned over the past year how to really trust my float more and more, with the light bulb going off at the Louisville nationals last year. I was a nervous wreck and shaking like a leaf, yet I was still hitting the X. Finally realizing that was a big moment for me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I know what you mean !...
that first few shots at the line, in Vegas, my bow felt like a rubber band and it felt like I had someone else's bow, my float was going from red to red !...man was I nervous !. you just gotta dig deep and trust you'll shot your shot !.
after the first few shots, you realize you must be OK, because the holes are all in the right place.


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## slimshady2 (Feb 5, 2012)

:mg: ttt


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

I don't know about zero sight movement, but I'm pretty sure it's easier to shoot good with less sight movement than it is with more. To just accept excessive sight movement without doing things to try to limit it is silliness. My .02

There are many things that can be done to limit the movement. However, until you get comfortable with the firing Process it's going to be difficult to evaluate what really helps and what doesn't.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

doing something here, that I am not at all in favor of doing, ...that of "quoting what some pro said"... but the statement ," you get what float you get on any given day" is directly taken from one of Griv's posts of about 2003 or 2004 (thereabout) in a discussion that is remarkably the same as this one, in content.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

ron w said:


> doing something here, that I am not at all in favor of doing, ...that of "quoting what some pro said"... but the statement ," you get what float you get on any given day" is directly taken from one of Griv's posts of about 2003 or 2004 (thereabout) in a discussion that is remarkably the same as this one, in content.


With all due respect to what Mr Ryals does for the sport of archery; this particular quote could be precisely why he excelled in his competitive career for a relatively short period of time. If you are going to accept a variable in the process in such a flippant manner that's pretty telling. As always, my view only.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

your float is what your float is......
it is a result of several combined conditions that are present at the time of shooting. some of these conditions are variable from a day to day, or variable within the same day, depending on what part of the day it is. all of these condition contribute to the float's condition at any time, and their condition of contribution are not adjustable. you simply get what you get at the time you get it. there are certainly ways to control the input, through diet, physical conditioning and other venues, that will pre-condition the input, but what you get at the time of shooting, is what you get. trying to control it then, is going to lead to over controlling the shot. the development of good float cannot be done as you are producing score, without detrimental results. 
if I am wrong about this, please feel free to demonstrate my inaccuracy. as a matter of fact, I challenge you to demonstrate my inaccuracy, with logical intrinsic rebuttal.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Float does change with conditions; pretty sure anyone who has shot in a broad spectrum of conditions (both personal and physical conditions surrounding the shooting) can attest to that. That said, on a bad day my float is still acceptable; but the movement within the float is increased, not the distance.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

My target bow has a limb problem an as I developed more pull through finally skipped past the stop. Took it to my coach and the manufacturer is replacing the limbs. My son gave me a centroid to shoot. Limb stops rock wall. Amazingly found some issues with my form grip torque.took some time to iron that out. Still getting the hang of it. But float wow almost zero effortless too. Did just stays where you put it. Nervous that today's shoot might change my path if last night was an indication this bow is amazing. Shooting another 600 round today. Wish me luck.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> My target bow has a limb problem an as I developed more pull through finally skipped past the stop. Took it to my coach and the manufacturer is replacing the limbs. My son gave me a centroid to shoot. Limb stops rock wall. Amazingly found some issues with my form grip torque.took some time to iron that out. Still getting the hang of it. But float wow almost zero effortless too. Did just stays where you put it. Nervous that today's shoot might change my path if last night was an indication this bow is amazing. Shooting another 600 round today. Wish me luck.


Float....It just seems people talk about float like they're holding on target for "5 minutes." Are we to hold on target to see if our pin wanders off? So a time frame of holding and the pin is floating. Are we then to decide "what float" gives a good shot? Did I learn something wrong?

A "smooth" execution shouldn't disturb a otherwise "good shot." Pin on target, execution is said to more stabilize the pin. Did I misunderstand this?
I can't see float. The pin is there, I execute. I ain't waiting for stress to grab hold or mental break down come.

Martin Shadowcat with bottom limb draw stop for a rock hard wall. field14, Tom, and eyes closed while executing. Bow fit, trust in shot, eyes closed and arrow is in the bull's eye. What was float while the eyes were closed? I got to the point I could get 5 bull's eyes once in while, 4 more often, and at least 3 Xs. I have one picture where I got 25 and 4 Xs.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

No Sonny you got it right. It is just what I thought or perceived as still was close but nowhere near where It could be . Today I struggled with the bow change rock hard wall execution clean and crisp. Struggling with the change in grip fit but when it was right it was inside out x did not worry about score left that to the wife and just shot hat aa few slip ups but felt the best since. I started shooting. Score did not reflect the improved hold but it will. 574 was poor but strings of x's indicated refinement of the grip fit issue and this will be a high 590's process I could just trust it to shoot did not need to hold it still the form did only struggled with grip fit. Silly that a 6 inch shorter bow could be more stable. Geez learn something every day wall was very important


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

It just seems that "grip" rattles cages.... I don't know of a bow I've owned or shot that didn't "respond" to how I grip. 100s of pictures and descriptions and some not detailed or shown as described.... field14 once replied of the "cold cream" trick. I got the fear put in me when my hand was lubricated with something slippery. Shown how to place my hand and then told draw. "Or less" was well hinted of. I drew (carefully), the bow slipped to where it wouldn't slip any more and held like a rock...It's a tool more than anything, not something concrete... Liquid dish soap, cold cream, something you can clean off afterwards. Hand just so, your hand slips up and your hand feels part of the bow. Careful. You just don't yank back. A few on AT tried the "trick" and were happily surprised. 

Dave Cousin posted a picture with lines he drew on his hand and gave instructions of tucking the little, ring and middle finger.
Missed by some or not understood; Terry Wunderle is one who puts forth sometimes of "heel the bow." I haven't seen it described farther. Look at the pictures of the top shooters and you can see their bow hand up, way up. Their index finger is shelf high or higher. That's high. What it is, the web from the thumb to palm is up fully. Riser grip contact continues down off the hand almost in a straight line. People get up, but then push with the top of the hand and this is where I think, not sure, that Terry states of heel the bow, ie, keeping full contact from web of hand straight off the hand - so even pressure from web to off the palm of the hand.

The natural pocket of the hand for a riser grip in just inside the base knuckle of the thumb. So web of palm, inside base knuckle and straight off the hand. Normally, my thumb sort of points to the target and hand and fingers just there, call limp or call soft. And bow hand, picture below, you can see how wide the web is from the thumb joint rebuild and the red lines show the scar where my hand was half cut through.

So my picture trying to give what Dave Cousin posted, a drawing from a manual, picture with black grip is one by nuts&bolts, my hand trying to show contact/straight off the grip. Trying to hold a bow and take a picture is a bit awkward when he can't see. That bow in my 2000 Hoyt UltraTec, removed grip panels the same year. I haven't changed since the 2000 UltraTec and my hand will fit to any bow I pick up. And then the black sleeve is that of Top ASA shooter Levi Morgan. Look good at Levi's hand, compression straight off the hand.

Tear away.....


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Interesting post Sonny. I have my thoughts on the proper grip but I'll keep them to myself. I certainly don't disagree with anything you said. Always love the "cold cream" story. :wink:

This whole idea of "hold." (Most of you call it the "F" word. I don't.) I'm not sure why it gets so much airtime, serious. Maybe it's just because I have an entirely different opinion of the subject. Yet I don't disagree with much of anything anybody has said about it. Far more than grip angles, straight arm/bent arm, rhomboids/triceps/biceps, stance, any of that, in my opinion your hold has more to do with the 2-3" that stand between your release hand and your brain at full draw than anything else. That's just me, I could write at length about it, but I won't. Let me say it this way and shut up...........*Hold is far more mental than it is mechanical.* Again, my view only. Make sense?


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Laz gotta disagree at least for me. When the hold is not what it needs to be let down reset redraw and rock solid so if it was grip or mental not sure but It does change draw to draw .


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Sasquech, that's cool. Whatever works for ya! That's the point I try to hammer with anyone that I share info with! That philosophy isn't that popular on this forum. :wink:

My views usually come from my experiences only. I haven't experienced the challenge of varying steadiness shot to shot. If I have it's been so long I forgot about it. The last time I actually consciously thought about my "hand in the bow" was about 42 years ago though I imagine.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Laz, you're gold.... Much depends on the individual. I think what Terry and Dave advocate is straight line push (?) to the target, maybe.... The bow shoulder is said as the normal, low and in the socket. The bow arm, about any way as long as the elbow is doing the something of the down and out angle, more like matching the 45 degree thing of the hand, but degree of angle is bow/person thing. 

I have message to Dave Cousin asking for him re-post his hand/description post. There was a piece of rather high amount of shooting in one setting and a picture. Mercy. Okay, his hand is spread, but think set for a bow. Does show how much contact with the riser. Definitely no high or mid grip hold. How much shooting and how much pressure to get such...results? He did have a picture of a practice session, 4 Vegas targets set, 120 shots and all outstanding....


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm assuming that still infers correct alignment and execution to provide a platform applicable for mental management of float? or is it mental mental management of float independently of the platform?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rattling....no snapping or arguing...

I wish I could see float. I know my pin is inside the bull's eye of a 5 spot and inside the 9 ring of Vegas face. If I see my pin off I back off and let it come to center. It doesn't I let down...sometimes and I wish more. The pin is there and if I execute smoothly the pin stays right there. If I hammer the shot the arrow will go left or right.
2005 Indoor Championship, I used a dot to cover up the bull's eye. Bull's eye covered, no white showing, I executed. Placed 3rd. Saw the white just a tad and stupid me shot. 299 for the day. 1 dang point would have tied for 2nd.

No one on God's green earth is going to convince me that they "float" their pin inside the X ring of 5 spot and especially inside the baby X ring of the Vegas face, not with a 4X lens and a .019" diameter pin. Why? Because I can't do it. I'm going to have to go out and see if my pin is inside the X or 10 ring at 10 yards.....I really don't know...

Foundation, we all have our own. Those in here talk of every part of the foundation, feet up. I shoot 1 to 2 arrows at a time a great deal of the time. Okay, I re-set every 1 to 2 arrows, feet, grip, anchor, bow arm and whatever and at different distances. To shoot more than 1 or 2 is to prove, "yep, I can do it." I keep pictures and submit some pictures. I've got bunches of them.... 

What foundation did I have when I the shot 20 yard Vegas face with two bows and two different size pins? What foundation did I have to shoot from 40 yards with a new 2 day old bow just set up? 40 yards, shooting from a 20% grade, behind a butane gas barrel, stay under the evergreens and don't hit the wife's bird houses. Foundation, whatever you have working for you, use it and build upon it.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I shoot a frosted circle exactly the size of the yellow on a vegas 3 spot if I see red it is floating. When it is right I get several seconds of no read an somewhere in there the shot breaks . Off I see red I let down. Granted I am not in the league of some of you but I aspire to be.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> I shoot a frosted circle exactly the size of the yellow on a vegas 3 spot if I see red it is floating. When it is right I get several seconds of no read an somewhere in there the shot breaks . Off I see red I let down. Granted I am not in the league of some of you but I aspire to be.


Last guy that said that beat me....


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Sonny please interpret the bruised picture is the bow at the white spot st the base of the life line? If so explains a lot.


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## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

The shot window is so true. I've found my float stabilizes in two or three seconds and holding much longer then 5 the "steadyness" goes away and the pin wobbles. Trying to save it just results in a crummy shot so I let down. What also helps stabilize the float is being sure my NPA is good and my feet are set correctly so there is no tension in my frame. When all is good the target is acquired almost instantly and after coming to anchor, obtaining a correct sight picture, then a quick body scan initiates the shot sequence and I just start pulling until the shot breaks. Even with the float I trust the shot will hit the target as long as the float is smooth. I keep watching the target as the bow falls away and recall what the sight pic was when the shot broke. If the pic was good the arrow is almost always where it is supposed to be. Watching the housing is an easy way to diagnose how my form was for the particular shot.


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## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

Lazarus said:


> With all due respect to what Mr Ryals does for the sport of archery; this particular quote could be precisely why he excelled in his competitive career for a relatively short period of time. If you are going to accept a variable in the process in such a flippant manner that's pretty telling. As always, my view only.


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## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

and one more thing.... I was moderately successful for a short period because the other guys are freaking good. I'm 43. I run a shop, teach a team, coach kids and adults from around the world, I make free articles and videos for the web to help archers all around. I also do cool stuff like start websites. I helped start this one website years ago called ArcheryTalk. You may have heard of it. 

Oh and I should finish the year somewhere in the top ten for USAT barring any calamity somewhere along the way. Not too bad for a washed up shooter. just sayin'


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Very happy to see this post  I'm currently working on your method of using a hinge release (relaxing the hand) with my Stan Black Ice and seeing some encouraging results. Some of the tightest 50 yard groups that I've had just today actually. Thank you for your vids and everything else you do for this sport - fantastic stuff.


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## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

LMacD said:


> Very happy to see this post  I'm currently working on your method of using a hinge release (relaxing the hand) with my Stan Black Ice and seeing some encouraging results. Some of the tightest 50 yard groups that I've had just today actually. Thank you for your vids and everything else you do for this sport - fantastic stuff.


Awesome!!! im glad it's working. 

Remember, more work up close helps solidify the form.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Griv it is always couch quarter backs that throw stones at those who don't just say but do I can't say I have agreed with every word but I am smart enough to keep my mouth shut and assume I have not reached the point in my career in the sport to see it from your point of view thanks again and keep up the great contributions to the sport


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## smithte426 (Feb 20, 2012)

tag


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

GRIV said:


> View attachment 2228733


You mis-evaluate Mr Ryals. Not a hater at all. :cheers:

Again, with *all* due respect to what you are doing in your business, I stand by the original quote. Not an gnat hair of an inch of disrespect intended. :cheers: And as always, I reserve the right to be wrong. :wink:


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

As a very early member of AT (day 2) I've been helped immensely along the way by Mr. Ryals. Had it not been for a weekend with him and the Morin trainer he gave me I would not have tried shooting LH and would have been long out of archery. Thanks again George!


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

EPLC said:


> As a very early member of AT (day 2) I've been helped immensely along the way by Mr. Ryals. Had it not been for a weekend with him and the Morin trainer he gave me I would not have tried shooting LH and would have been long out of archery. Thanks again George!


My own positive experience; quite some time ago when I was coming back into this game after a long lay off I read an article; "Stabilizers, Balance and Bows, Oh my!" that I made my shooting "bible" for some time. I could have almost recited the entire article at one time. That one article may have progressed my abilities as a shooter more than any one thing I've read or heard in my life. :cheers:

Gotta give credit where credit is due.


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## v5cvbb (Feb 1, 2011)

http://lukovi.com/download/Stabilizers_Balance_Bows.pdf

"Stabilizers, Balance and Bows, Oh my!"


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