# Chinese risers and limbs



## YankeeRebel

Is this spam?


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## dunninla

why would it be spam? This is a confusing subject so I thought I'd post what I figured out about buying beginner gear. I guess I'm a bit of a confederate rebel in that respect . Plus there are a ton of archers not located in the US, or anywhere near an archery store, who try to navigate where to buy stuff online.


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## SteelBuckeye

I believe the Junxing 155 is also sold as the PSE Theory FX for $350.00. A $250.00 markup! PSE claims all of their bows are made in the USA.


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## ltben

One recommandation is bosen bow with different ilf riser lenght ,color,model
Different ilf limbs set ,recurve and longbow limbs set.
Only direct sell to factory.
Top quality product and finish.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y

The Chinese manufacturers actually knock off each other. So when you buy china direct, you may think you are getting the same thing that the domestic retailers are selling. It looks the same in the pictures. But you are really getting counterfeit crap from a knockoff artist down the street. This is the same with electronics, tools, machinery, optics, etc. I recommend buying made in china goods from a domestic source. Someone who has a physical address, takes possession of the inventory, is insured, and pays the duty and excise taxes to the feds. The company I work for does some importing. There is a plethora of counterfeit merchandise out there and you have no recourse against a Chinese seller once they have your American dollars.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dunninla

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> The Chinese manufacturers actually knock off each other.


 that is ironic. and kinda funny too. Note that I agree with your point when I said that if you buy directly from China you are missing out on (for example Lancaster) advice in english, warranty assistance, return privileges, and that they won't stock it if they haven't vetted it for minimum standards of quality and safety.


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## Doofy_13

I think you have to look at things realistically. For example....the Black Hunter and Galaxy Ember bow. People claim there are different versions of this bow with different levels of quality. I highly doubt it. It takes a lot of work to manufacture something and these bows are likely all made in the same place on the same machines. Yes some may be branded one way and need to meet specific standards but how important is it really? They may not measure down to the thousandth of an inch....but I bet they are more consistent than my finger release. 

I've owned a lot of "Chinese" gear and I can honestly say they are made quite well (the Sear ILF riser and Ember bow to name a couple...both great). I think some people just need to remove the blinders from their eyes.


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## Joe Barbieur

Dunn, you are correct in “some” of your assumptions, but off in others. I am not going to take the time to educate you but I will put one thing out there for all of you.
Jando and Topoint are completely separate companies.
When an importer brings something into the US there is not a 30 to70% margin, I wish it was that high. 
When you bring something direct from China, arrows etc. do you pay the FET that is required by the US government? I am thinking not. Those that import pay that tax. Do you know for virtually every arrow sold in the US there is a .52 FET tax on it? Do you know for every riser sold in the US there is an 11% FET tax on it? For every bow over 30# that FET tax is levied. 
What is the cost of inventory on the shelf? Every day something is on the shelf costs an importer money. 
Business 101 would be a good place to start when you start talking about margins and markup. They are not the same number.


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## Bob Gene

Carbon Express is Chinese, but look how many buys those arrows. Are they junk also? Must not be lots of people use them.


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## Hank D Thoreau

Just a little nit regarding Joe's excellent comment, the tax on bows is greater than or equal to 30 pounds, which is why you will see many bows marked 29.

The key thing to recognize about markup and margin is that markup is a the individual product level and margin is at the company financial level. I can mark a bow up 50% over cost, but that does not mean that the company is making a 50% margin. If I don't sale any bows then I am losing money which means I have a negative margin.


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## SimonRL

Cartel is Korea's Doosung's different name. I know Decut is Chinese, and yet to hear bad things about them but then I've only seen one kid use it.

One example I know about Chinese counterfeiting is Haibo's Inspire which looks identical to Greatree's Inspire. 

Haibo, a decent sized machined metalwork company, took an order for a template of Inspire from Greatree. Then they started making Inspire, claiming it is the same product as Greatree's Inspire.

Maybe they are, or maybr not. It's the same shape, but different level of quality control. Considering how China is to the concept of patents and copyrights, you best bet there are many more instances like this of which I am not aware.


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## Mike Lawless

SteelBuckeye said:


> I believe the Junxing 155 is also sold as the PSE Theory FX for $350.00. A $250.00 markup! PSE claims all of their bows are made in the USA.


That was my "beginner" bow. I bought it locally. I'll have to check it out to see if it has a "Made in..." label. It seems to be decent overall. The cast riser's threaded holes are prone to thread pull-out if your accessory's threads are too short. (I'll need to heli-coil the stab hole if I ever wanna use it again). This tells me the casting is not very dense.....typical of Chinese aluminum castings.


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## z-VooD-z

thanks for the info - definitely some good stuff in your post


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## kheper

dunninla said:


> Galaxy Crescent riser = Core Air riser


Galaxy Crescent = Core Air = Core Gonexo = Sanlida Miracle X8

Sanlida appears to be a large company. My theory is that they grind-out tons of risers - which are simply branded by other/smaller companies. A rep from Sanlida wrote in an email to me on Aliexpress: "we are the only ATA member in China.".



> - Sanlida B7 ILF 25" Riser w. 30# Sanlida B7 glass/foam limbs ($147 ebay shipped direct from China). That was ordered today, should arrive in three weeks, and I plan to grow into this one with time and practice.


I watched that item on ebay. I figured that the price was too good to be true. Regarding the quality and other aspects of the B7, keep us posted.


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## kheper

SteelBuckeye said:


> I believe the Junxing 155 is also sold as the PSE Theory FX for $350.00. A $250.00 markup! PSE claims all of their bows are made in the USA.


The PSE Theory is an ILF bow - ILF limbs on an ILF riser. The Junxing F155 uses proprietary (screw on) limbs. They do look eerily similar from a distance.


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## dunninla

kheper said:


> Galaxy Crescent = Core Air = Core Gonexo = Sanlida Miracle X8
> 
> Sanlida appears to be a large company. My theory is that they grind-out tons of risers - which are simply branded by other/smaller companies. A rep from Sanlida wrote in an email to me on Aliexpress: "we are the only ATA member in China.".
> 
> 
> 
> I watched that item on ebay. I figured that the price was too good to be true. Regarding the quality and other aspects of the B7, keep us posted.


 Turns out they didn't have the black riser in stock, and didn't know when they'd get one due to Chinese New year, so after five days delay, i opted for the White B7 riser. It shipped four days ago. Also they've transitioned from the B7 graphics ( black archer side, white target side) to the Miracle X9 graphics (black both sides), so those are the limbs I'll be receiving. And you're right about the $147... the riser is $90, and the limbs are $129, so I guess I got the riser for $18


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## dunninla

SteelBuckeye said:


> I believe the Junxing 155 is also sold as the PSE Theory FX for $350.00. A $250.00 markup! PSE claims all of their bows are made in the USA.


 Almost right. The PSE Theory is the Junxing F165, which sells on aliexpress for $145, but I don't think they're the same limbs as those that come with the Theory.


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## dunninla

I found something very curious... the Decut Basha Pro riser ... seems that riser is made by a company whose other products have nothing to do with archery, the closest other product they make is pocket knives... isn't that strange? Who then designed the riser? It's not like a pocket knife engineer decides to design an ILF riser one day while bored.

I know it is the Basha Pro and not the original Basha because it's anodized. (notice the Decut badge on the picture).

Now I get why Decut would outsource manufacturing on this product... they order it for around $15 in bulk, and then sell it for, say $100 into the retail channel, and then the retailer charges $200, or in the case of alternativess, $137 on closeout.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.89.4e816407MZznEK

Man, if anodized, cast, then CNC machined aluminum risers can be sold profitably by the manufacturer for $12 in bulk, that's just astounding to me. That riser has gotten very good reviews as an intermediate riser, by the way.

That makes me wonder if the $75 retail risers are purchased for $8, and $100 retail risers are purchased for $12, the $150 retail risers (like the Galaxy Tourch) are purchased for $15. And I wouldn't be surprised if a $200 - $300 riser made from a forged aluminum billet and meticulous finishing doesn't actually cost about $25 to manufacture. I think were looking at manufacturing at 10% of retail cost. PUKE

I'm almost tempted to buy that Basha Pro for $80 from this site (charge for a sample) because I'd also like a 23" riser.


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## kheper

I'd pay little heed to prices on Alibaba - which show 2 different risers on the same offering. Last week, I asked for a quote on an item - with images of 2 risers for "$1-34" (One looked like a Decut Basha.) The quote was $210 + $45 shipping. The riser in the image sent to me was worth $66. It was made by Toparchery. Make them show you the image of the riser - which you are buying - before sending them cash.


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## jrogers88

I now have a pair of junxing f166 ilf bows. Both are identical. 21" riser, medium 50# ilf limbs with adjustable side plates for shooting off the shelf or a rest hole for a bolt on rest. Both shoot very well and the fit of the limbs to the dovetails are nice and crisp with no slop. Very pleased with them


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## dunninla

kheper said:


> I watched that item on ebay. I figured that the price was too good to be true. Regarding the quality and other aspects of the B7, keep us posted.


Well, firstly I am not really qualified to offer much opinion in that I am a new archer with no basis for comparision... that's why if made sense to me to pay $147 for my first ILF rig including string. But I'll comment on the feel and appearance:

-Sanlida X9/B7 riser: $89 at aliexpress.com. I wanted black, but they were out, so I ordered white. I must say the paint job is really nice... it is not a flat white, but some sort of pearlized slightly metal flake white. It is so much better looking than flat white. No nicks or scratches. i'm impressed the three stabilizer holes contain busihings. The handle seems fine, low/medium in height and medium in width and asymmetric, that is, it is shaped for a left hand and wouldn't work for right. One thing I didn't like is that with the 30# X9 limbs tillered in all the way, with my 28" draw, they measure 34#, and with the bolts as far out as is safe, they measure 30#. I would have preferred that all the way out was 30#, or halfway was 30#, so at the moment I have it tillered all the way out and am working up to it from a 24# starter bow. Their entry level ILF handle, the X8/C7, does not have any lateral limb adjustment, and this one does, with the typical push pull via screws and locking screws. I can't comment whether it is dead or lively in the hand as I have no comparison. I have replaced the Dacron with Fastflight string. Since my interest is barebow, I have fitted 350g Spigarelli weight to the middle bushing, and 250g Spig weight to the bottom bushing. The weights were only $31 delivered from alt services. Everything seems great. The riser with weights comes in at 1750 grams. Sometimes i take out the lower weight if the weight starts fatiguing my bow shoulder. The rest is Hoyt Super Rest with both thick and thin adhesion pads installed back to back to get center shot without a plunger. I do have the X-spot/Decut $40 plunger, but haven't had a reason to use it yet since I got center shot with the Hoyt pads.

Sanlida X9/B7 limbs: $129 at aliexpress.com. I was surprised they are very well finished in gloss, and the graphics are fine. I like that both sides are black because that contrasts well with the pearl white handle. Pretty narrow tips. But as mentioned above, tillered all the way into their matching handle, they are 34# at 28". I'm glad they're foam because inexpensive glass/wood limbs can warp... even the Hoyt Carbon 720s were said on this forum to have suffered terribly from quality control problems and warped much worse than no-name starter limbs. I don't know which Chinese factory Hoyt outsourced to, but I guarantee you they dropped the ball on QC. I'm sure in the five years that have passed since that debacle, western companies have learned that you have to have QC people on the ground in China or you're screwed. Not sure how these Glass/Foam perform better than the entry level X8 glass/wood limbs, but I really didn't want entry level glass/wood limbs because of the warping issue. When I looked at alternativess.com for an entry level setup, I was set on the Decut Basha (not Pro) and Core Prelude limbs, but that setup was going to set me back $150 with string and delivery, and would have taken between 2-3 weeks to arrive. Plus I just liked the graphics better on the X9 set. The Basha/Core is what I would recommend to anyone on a strict budget had this X9 set not been on Amazon at 35% below normal retail. I also liked that I read good reviews on the Sanlida X10/A7 riser, and figured if they can do a well executed intermediate riser, they probably would execute an entry/intermediate riser well also, even without reviews.

I plan to keep this setup until I buy a barebow specific riser (that is, with internal weights), and will use the X9 limbs with it until I shoot well enough to move up to something like SF Elite limbs or MK Inpers limbs. I will look for a used Spig BB, Gillo G2, or Bernardini Nilo, and go from there. At that time I'll switch from Superrest to Spigarelli ZT rest with teh X-spot/Decut plunger.


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## z-VooD-z

Thanks


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## dunninla

p.s regarding my original post about manufacturers in China:

I found at alibaba the following: Weihei Sanding Sports Company owns (and I would assume manufactures since they reference their huge manufacturing capability for OEM) these brands in China:

Decut
Core
Cartel
Infitec
Stark
Sammick

Plus they picture limbs they claim are theirs branded with Inspire, which looks identical to limbs sold by Greatree in the US, so either they own Greatree, or they OEM for them.

Lastly, one poster above said Cartel was a Korean company, but not per the Sanding Sports 2019 catalog, Cartel is their brand.


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## stonesmokey

thanks for the follow up - I'll look into these for a starter rig.


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## dunninla

stonesmokey said:


> thanks for the follow up - I'll look into these for a starter rig.


 I would say no at $219 current price. Better off with the Decut Basha (not Basha pro which is $75 more, but it's anodized) riser and Core Prelude limbs at alternativess.com... plus a string, and you're at about $160 delivered from UK to USA. Or if you need to save $30 more so that you're all in at $130, at that same site the Core Air riser, but note it is prone to paint chipping and is advised to take limbs only up to 30#. If you do order from there, grab about 5 Hoyt Super Rests, which are $1.09 each. They are fantastic for now and later on your second rig you can get a plunger, but you don't need one now. And if it really is a starter rig, don't neglect the $6 bow stringer. And if it really is your first rig and you don't already shoot compound, your first limbs should be 20-22 lbs. A few months in buy 28 lb. limbs since they're only $65 delivered to your door.


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## woodsmansfinest

Interesting topic... Following... Those Junxing bows are like a 140$ satori... It's insane... But still a bit of a gamble...


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## kheper

dunninla said:


> Their entry level ILF handle, the X8/C7, does not have any lateral limb adjustment, and this one does, with the typical push pull via screws and locking screws.


Thanks for the update on the Miracle X9 set. However, the Miracle X8 does provide-for horizontal limb adjustment. It's contains an older-style, eccentric system. Tuning it is cumbersome with the provided (strange) wrench - but functional. $70 shipped for the X8 from aliexpress is not a bad deal. I paired the X8 with new, Bosen #35 wood/glass limbs. The limbs were $67 off of an ebay auction. $137 in total.


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## Wladimir

I used Kinetic Vaultage carbone limbs made in China, they are not bad for intermediate


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## TsavoCreek

This is all great info. Thanks. I went to China on an engineering work event a few years ago and learned a lot. ( I worked for an Aerospace company). To say there is copyright infringement is an understatement. If you're shooting in your backyard I wouldn't fall too far down the risk/reward laddder. If you're booking a $5000 hunt I'd spend the extra money. God Bless.


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## damOOn

Hi everybody,

I'm in the market for an ILF riser for bowhunting (need to have something I can use with different poundages). 
At first I've been checking wooden ones like Bear Paw Shadow (17") and TradTech Lark (19").
I think I'd better get a 19" camo riser considering the fact that 62" seems to be the size sweet spot for me.
On the other hand I think that as this setup will be used for trad bow training and small game hunting in harsh conditions. This implies two things : I want something cheap and sturdy. This makes me think about buying metal risers.
What do you think of this and do you have recommendations about cheap metal risers? I don't want to spend more than 200€ for it.
Thanks for your help


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## dunninla

damOOn said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I'm in the market for an ILF riser for bowhunting (need to have something I can use with different poundages).
> I want something cheap and sturdy. This makes me think about buying metal risers.
> What do you think of this and do you have recommendations about cheap metal risers? I don't want to spend more than 200€ for it.
> Thanks for your help


 see post #21 in this Thread. That Junxing F166 has gotten really good reviews and i think it is $140 US (not sure what that is in Euro) delivered from China via aliexpress.com


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## SoddenSlimeball

Even “elite-archer level” Korean stuff is made in Chinese factories. My W&W Nano TFT (an $800 riser and their flagship carbon riser a couple years ago) has a nice little “Made in China” sticker on it.


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## hingefracture

Thanks for all the info! pretty interesting subject....


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## Crash915s

i bought one and it shoots well with very lo vibration. i was very scepticle but hey quite surprised with the out come.


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## Hank D Thoreau

Cartel is a Korean company. It goes by Doosung. See the logo at the bottom of the webpage. 1982, made in Korea. They may be sourcing their lower end products (oxymoron since most of their products are low end) to China. Cartel has been around a lot longer than these Chinese brands, at least longer than they have been available to us.

http://www.doosungarchery.co.kr/eng/


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## damOOn

dunninla said:


> see post #21 in this Thread. That Junxing F166 has gotten really good reviews and i think it is $140 US (not sure what that is in Euro) delivered from China via aliexpress.com


Hello,
It seems like the Junxing F166 doesn't exist in left hand model. Am I wrong?
Any other lefty 19" metal riser with wood handle (good quality and low price)?

Thanks for your help


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## damOOn

_Sorry couldn't find a way to edit my previous post :
_I Think I found what I was looking for : Junxing F261. Any bad reviews?
What should I change on it when it arrives?
Thanks


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## IA Monsterbuck

dunninla said:


> see post #21 in this Thread. That Junxing F166 has gotten really good reviews and i think it is $140 US (not sure what that is in Euro) delivered from China via aliexpress.com


I just ordered one of these. This is my first foray into traditional archery and I didn't want to invest too much. 

You can get the F166 bow in black for $108 shipped on Alibaba. I ordered the camo version which was about $8 more and added an extra set of heavier camo limbs for a total of $170 shipped. 

That's a pretty reasonable price for an ILF recurve and having two sets of limbs is great since I don't know what poundage I really need.


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## damOOn

I ordered the F261 and received it in 5 calendar days ! 
I'm really liking the bow but I started archery last september and only had one bow before.
Quality is really nice and price is way lower than the EXE Scream which seems to be the exact same stuff...


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## Buran

I'm shocked by some prices from Aliexpress in their traditional bows with ILF risers. I was taking a look for hunting style ILF bows at well known manufacturers with models as the W&W Black Wolf, Hoyt Satori or the Lancaster's brand TradTech Titan series valuing if a traditional ILF riser was a good first step towards increasing my draw weight before buying my first compound, when saw the Stephen Martin (Archery Supplies)video about the TBOW (from May 2018). Happens that the TBOW is exactly the same riser as the Hoyt Satori 19" (which is outsourced and manufactured in China). Now, that riser alone cost ~450 US $ before taxes, and in the Martin's video the whole bow price tag was 470 AUS $, and currently cost less than 192 € (shipping included) in my country, and the riser alone cost ~100 €.

Now, the limbs aren't the same as in a Hoyt (which doesn't matter, due they cost less than 90 € and being ILF you can swap it and buy a pair of Hoyt Velos or Nanos from W&W, if you want/can spent that sort of money. But the thing is that the riser is not a imitation, neither a clone: is just the same riser as the Satori, but rebranded. I'm wondering now if those companies which chose to outsource some of their production didn't shoot themselves in the foot, because once they have the knownledge and facilities to craft a product for you, nothing prevents them to produce and sell them rebranded overseas at unmatched prices.

Now, I don't have much experience with bows, but I have a home gym in which invested ~4.000 € in the last three years, and most of my equipment comes from Rogue (including a HL-2 rack, an Rogue Euro olympic lifting babell, 145 Kgs in bumper plates, a Concept 2 erg rower, etc. I known that some brands as Titan do offer "similar" products at much lower costs, but the gap in quality is very evident (in part due Rogue was always aiming to measure themselves against Eleiko, Werk San and Uesaka, so they craft sturdy, well made products). So buying Titan never was a choice for me. But this is is different: if you sell a well done product, crafted overseas, and I can get the same product minus the brand (and the brand support) but at a quarter of the tag price I'll lean to try.

So I expect from american brands of archery to keep making most of their products in US with US work force and facilities, because outsourcing critical components as the risers in other countries seems to me like opening the Pandora's box.


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## 3D Archery

Mark up is normal, do you really think a shoe from Nike cost over 120? When I lived in Korea, I could get real Air Jordans for $20! They get an order make it and then make a huge overrun, everything is already paid for and they sell it off. The normal mark up from wholesale to retail has always been 33 1/3. Owned a business for the past 25 years and always marked up over wholesale. 

I have no problem with Chinese made gear. I have the Black Hunter from Junxing and it is a sweet bow, it cost $150 retail. Why should someone spend $300 plus on a bow (when new), if they may not even stick with it? That is how I look at it.


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## buckleb

Thanks for the info


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## >--gt-->

Buran said:


> Happens that the TBOW is exactly the same riser as the Hoyt Satori 19" (which is outsourced and manufactured in China). Now, that riser alone cost ~450 US $ before taxes, and in the Martin's video the whole bow price tag was 470 AUS $, and currently cost less than 192 € (shipping included) in my country, and the riser alone cost ~100 €.
> 
> Now, the limbs aren't the same as in a Hoyt (which doesn't matter, due they cost less than 90 € and being ILF you can swap it and buy a pair of Hoyt Velos or Nanos from W&W, if you want/can spent that sort of money. But the thing is that the riser is not a imitation, neither a clone: is just the same riser as the Satori, but rebranded. I'm wondering now if those companies which chose to outsource some of their production didn't shoot themselves in the foot, because once they have the knownledge and facilities to craft a product for you, nothing prevents them to produce and sell them rebranded overseas at unmatched prices.
> 
> Now, I don't have much experience with bows, but I have a home gym in which invested ~4.000 € in the last three years, and most of my equipment comes from Rogue (including a HL-2 rack, an Rogue Euro olympic lifting babell, 145 Kgs in bumper plates, a Concept 2 erg rower, etc. I known that some brands as Titan do offer "similar" products at much lower costs, but the gap in quality is very evident (in part due Rogue was always aiming to measure themselves against Eleiko, Werk San and Uesaka, so they craft sturdy, well made products). So buying Titan never was a choice for me. But this is is different: if you sell a well done product, crafted overseas, and I can get the same product minus the brand (and the brand support) but at a quarter of the tag price I'll lean to try.


Stumbled on this post and just stepping in to tell those who don't know any better, that this is a total, shameful fabrication.

Every Hoyt Satori is made in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA, from CNC billet aluminum. Shocking, the amount of misinformation coming from the offshore makers and their shills in the past few years.


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## WhattheFOC

Chinese? This thread is racist!

I’m not sure if I should be triggered, or a surprise release. 😉


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