# The "AUTOMATIC" shot?



## EPLC

Talking to a 60X local shooter a couple of weeks ago I was reminded of something I have heard over and over again. "The shot has to be automatic". No matter what you read or hear about anyone performing at a high level (regardless of what) you hear this statement. As I think about this "automatic" shot I have to admit I really don't understand it. It confuses me. As I examine my own shot I also realize that not much that is going on is truly automatic. Sure there have been days where it was, and my best days were the result. I just don't know enough about it to do it at will. 

I think this would be a really good discussion here... not so much as looking for a fix for me, but more of a detailed discussion on the subject.


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## Bobmuley

Not much detail here: You can only think of one conscious thing at a time. You can choose to do one of two things. Think about aiming or think about parts of your shot.

I don't know how to automate aiming, but I can automate my shot.


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## justok

Bobmuley said:


> Not much detail here: You can only think of one conscious thing at a time. You can choose to do one of two things. Think about aiming or think about parts of your shot.
> 
> I don't know how to automate aiming, but I can automate my shot.


 What is this aiming you people speak of ?


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## EPLC

Bobmuley said:


> Not much detail here: You can only think of one conscious thing at a time. You can choose to do one of two things. Think about aiming or think about parts of your shot.
> 
> I don't know how to automate aiming,* but I can automate my shot*.


And that's exactly the information I'm looking for. I understand that the conscious mind can only accomplish one thing at a time but mine can do that very rapidly... which seems to be the root of all evil...


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## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> And that's exactly the information I'm looking for. I understand that the conscious mind can only accomplish one thing at a time but mine can do that very rapidly... which seems to be the root of all evil...


The best way I know of is the thing you hate most...

All that short range/blank bale stuff is used to automate your form, next you incorporate aiming (while maintaining that automatic shot). More short-range work while working your way back.

When that's mastered you need to keep your conscious mind busy. Some have a mantra that they go over in their head, some sing songs, some count, some like CBrunson talk themselves through aiming...whatever it takes to keep the conscious mind downrange on that itty bitty X, or should I say "not on yourself".

If you don't have an automatic subconscious shot or your conscious mind bounces back and forth between downrange and _what you're doing_ you'll be looking at a lot of lock ups and freezing. 

Maybe you have an automatic shot and just need to set it free by keeping you're conscious mind busy.


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## RCR_III

To me it means building muscle memory and subconscious timing. Developing your shot execution to where you know exactly what it feels like before you ever start it. Picking a certain way that works best for you to shoot and then doing that every single time. This will let you focus less on your shot execution and more on just holding the pin/dot in the middle. Your subconscious fires the shot based off muscle memory to know that, "Okay, this shot is about to fire....Get pin in the middle.... Pin is in the middle..Fire" as the internal drive. With my example this isn't you consciously thinking okay I'm floating on target and the pin is off the middle and I need to push/pull it back there. This is you running your shot the same exact way you do every time and letting it happen. This is why I developed my shot around a timing window as to when my body steadies itself to the middle the most consistently. 

The aiming part is something a lot of people struggle with. They haven't spent the time to adjust their draw length and loop length to the smallest amounts to get the perfect shoulder positioning and get the perfect leverage. You have to put in the time to do certain things to aim well, or you'll spend your time aiming excitedly. Meaning you'll be all over the place and stressing yourself to get back to the middle and choke it there and make yourself worse. 

You spend the time not shooting and just holding and finding what works best for you. Find out which muscles to flex and hold tight, where to position the bow shoulder, the best weight set up on stabilizers, the loop height that gives you the right aiming characteristics during your shot execution, the speed of the release/trigger tension that gives you the steadiest hold and smoothest execution that doesn't disturb your aim, and so on and so on until you've put in the work to be able to hit the middle as often as you're capable. 

When you do the above work, you allow yourself two things; you know what your float will look like and you can accept it and you can have the confidence that your float pattern will be around the center and all that's left is to execute and run your shot. 

You have to pick one thing at a time though to work through and commit to learning to a subconscious state. It's not easy, it's not quick, and it's what separates the ones who struggle more from those that don't; but it gives you your automatic shot.


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## loujo61

I worked with a new shooter this weekend, at twenty yards I noticed that he wasn't comfortable aiming so we moved up to ten yards, I told him to just hold in the white (5 spot) until his float got sloppy then let down. After we did the holding drill I told him to just get a good hold and pull through and execute the shot, I noticed that as he pulled he would lighten up the pressure on his trigger finger and get apprehensive with his posture. I explained to him that our eyes are very good at finding the center, that he needed to trust his float (hold) and trust his ability to line up the sight picture (aim) and that - that part of his shot routine needed to become "automatic". Next, I told him to get a good hold on the white and as he was holding I told him to look through his sight picture at the X and pull through the shot, instantly his apprehension went away. Trust your shot, focus on the middle and let your float, sight picture, and execution become one and the same (automatic).


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## justok

Your shot can not be automatic if you do not have a shot. By this I mean one needs to train a shot sequence , a very detailed shot sequence that can be compartmentalized. The compartments allow you to understand where your shot is breaking down on the line. ( game day is not the same as practice day , nor is your shot ) if you do not make adjustments that allow you to shoot the way you handle game day.
Automation in your shot is achieved via countless hours of smart training , notes and small adjustments. The learning curve becomes very subtle , but long , very long. There is no short cut , there is no natural talent.
Training your brain to shoot single holes dead center X Creates automation in your aiming - Yes I said automation in your aiming. Aiming is the devil on fix distance competition shooting. People spend way too much time aiming. It simply creates stress , mental stress and physical stress. 
When do you start your aiming ? how long can you aim , exactly how long does your great shot take from step one of your shot sequence until closure on your shot ( every shot needs closure , then reset) 
After you find your shot , train your shot , you will find automation , once your brain trust your shot you know your gonna blow the center out of the face , aiming automaton is achieved -


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## redman

One thing I like to do that helps me is to set up a target at 10 yards with a medium target on it and set up a target at 60'yards with the same size face on it .Take one shot at 10 yards and one at 60 yards aiming is easy at 10 yards and it takes work at 60 yards this helps me get my shot execution down and aiming down so I doint over hold . Most of the time I doint move the sight just leave it on 60 yards just put the target top of bag . It helps with center up on peep sight you see it move at 10 yards


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## aread

justok said:


> Your shot can not be automatic if you do not have a shot....


^^^Truth!!!

The rest of the post is excellent too, but I wanted to emphasize this point. Jacob & Blue X have posted about this too. You have to find your shot, then you can repeat until you almost can't do it any other way. A written shot sequence is the framework for this. Lots of discipline and lots of arrows, but I believe that it is worth it.

Allen


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## subconsciously

Our brains love autopilot, because in most situations it’s pretty handy. It lets you chew gum and talk on the phone without having to think about it, freeing our brains for more important things - like driving. When it comes to developing ones skills however, autopilot is the enemy, because it creates plateaus. Plateaus are irritating to say the least. 

When developing talent you gotta look for the "sweet spot". Embracce the power of repetition, so the action becomes fast and fluent. This means creating a practice space that enables you to reach and repeat, stay engaged, and improve your skills over time. Staying in the sweet spot creates positive re-enforcement for skill development. 

Like stated earlier - you can't be automatic if you don't have a good shot sequence. It is developed over time. 

Or just change releases. 


.02


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## billk63

GREAT TOPIC!!

Interesting insights so far...

My $.02. 

It's all about developing YOUR shot sequence, from loading the arrow, setting your grip, drawing, aiming or floating, to the almost subconscious firing and follow thru. It's a physical activity requiring muscle memory and training, but above all else, *starting within and controlled by the mind*. That's why target panic confounds all of us at one time or another and is so tough to beat.

After shooting for 40+ years, this is what I've come to realize after developing various forms of target panic. I've never shot indoors until this past winter, only 3d, and have worked hard to make a few changes in my form and shot sequence. Shot my best round of the year yesterday, and with the exception of about 6 or 8 shots, all found the yellow on a Vegas face. Thinking of the round and how more and more shots felt automatic, I can say I truly believe what I'm writing. As I look at the score card, sitting here typing this, I can recall exactly what each of those bad shots felt like. I'm not a ten ring shooter and maybe never was, but I'm seeing more tens while my goal this winter is to keep the arrows in the yellow. To me, with my bifocal dependent vision, that is a reasonable goal.

A while back, I felt part of my problem was not being able to cover the spot with my sight pin. I pulled the pin from my HHA and replaced it with a modified crosshairs that encircled the yellow ring. I posted a thread with photos and a few league shooter tried it also and liked it. After shooting two or three round a week for ten weeks, i've replaced the pin and can now float the pin on the spot and execute my firing sequence with confidence. I've unlearned the bad habits and reinforced good habits in the entire shot sequence. I'm far from perfect, but shooting well is becoming less 'work' and a lot more fun. Some recommended a hinge or thumb release as the only cure. I have found that I can shoot my thumb release better than before and some days just as good as the index release. It's more comfortable form-wise, but gets away from me more often than the index. I've not given up on the thumb but will continue to shoot both until the thumb takes over as my primary release. Another reasonable goal that is within sight by alternating between practice rounds. 

Ours is a mental game first and foremost. I saw a show, maybe on Discovery, dealing in general with our brains and how they work. They wired a couple of top archers to an EEG to measure brain waves as they went thru the shot sequence. There was a measurable and distinct change between two types of waves as they aimed and fired. The shot sequence started with one wave higher than the other and as they aimed the two waves reversed position in frequency and amplitude. They called this in layman terms as 'in the zone'. They then put a few amateur archers to the same test and they did not measure the same way, with erratic accuracy the result. They then trained the amateurs to hold their fire until their brain waves reversed in the same way as the pros, the result being much higher degrees of accuracy.

This is scientific proof of and measurable definition of what can also be called an 'automatic' shot.


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## carlosii

Good thread.

I have never asked anybody what their thought process is when they're making a shot and this has provided some good idea to that point.


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## billk63

Found it.

Science channel Thru the wormhole with Morgan Freeman. Episode titled 'can our minds be hacked?'

Here's a preview link, but I'm gonna find the full episode and watch again.

http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/can-our-minds-be-hacked-2/

Googled 'archers wired to EEG' and found studies using mobile wearable EEGs for analysis and training in sports, but you need advanced medical degrees to understand all the twenty dollar words they use.


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## RCR_III

billk63 said:


> Found it.
> 
> Science channel Thru the wormhole with Morgan Freeman. Episode titled 'can our minds be hacked?'
> 
> Here's a preview link, but I'm gonna find the full episode and watch again.
> 
> http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/can-our-minds-be-hacked-2/
> 
> Googled 'archers wired to EEG' and found studies using mobile wearable EEGs for analysis and training in sports, but you need advanced medical degrees to understand all the twenty dollar words they use.


Have any links to the EEG studies you found?


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## billk63

Do a Google search for 'archers wired to EEG'

Here's the first hit, after this thread. There are quite a few.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/07-08/eeg.aspx


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## cbrunson

Making something automatic sounds really fun and magical, but you really have to think about results. This is a results based sport, as most are. If you are functioning at peak performance then it would certainly make sense to try to make it happen with little influence from your psyche, but if you are not performing absolutely perfect, and seek to improve beyond your current abilities, trying to make your current shot process automatic is putting the cart before the horse.

One man’s waste is another man’s treasure – I can relax and go brain dead and keep them in the white all day long. There are many guys out there that would love to be able to say that. There are those that can do the same with the X ring. At what point do you accept that your ability has peaked, and stop actively trying to improve?


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## Bobmuley

cbrunson said:


> ...At what point do you accept that your ability has peaked, and stop actively trying to improve?


Never.

But we need to keep in mind the end game. A couple of lower scores or temporary dip in average does not mean that it won't work out better in the long run. We don't have to be Gillingham about it and change multiple things at once...every day...but, we should always work to get better. I also agree with RCR that it's best to limit improvement areas to one thing at a time (think grip, release action, etc.).


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## SonnyThomas

Automatic? Sunday 3D, of my best shots the pin was where it needed to be and I don't remember "pulling the trigger." I didn't have trouble getting on target, but when I thought about my release....Well....


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## erdman41

For me aiming or sight picture is automatic. I talk myself through my shot process. Problems occur when I don't talk myself through and let things happen automatically.


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## justok

cbrunson said:


> Making you really have to think about results.
> This is a results based sport, as most are. If you are functioning at peak performance then it would certainly make sense to try to make it happen with little influence from your psyche, but if you are not performing absolutely perfect, and seek to improve beyond your current abilities, trying to make your current shot process automatic is putting the cart before the horse.
> 
> – I can relax and go brain dead and keep them in the white all day long. There are many guys out there that would love to be able to say that. There are those that can do the same with the X ring. At what point do you accept that your ability has peaked, and stop actively trying to improve?




Basically what I am preaching pertains to " advanced shooters " Have at least shot practice 60x a couple times or three -
Until that point we are just looking for our shot , and not at least 98% confident in our abilities.
Results are future tense , this I promise you If you are thinking about results , your not shooting to your potential. This for me is exactly what leads to " target Panic " 
You should absolutely know you potential on any given day , as well as the next day. If you walk on the line shooting as a 298 shooter expecting to shoot a 300 at Nationals , you have less than a 3% chance of doing that. Less than 5% of people preform better under pressure than at a practice level. A majority of these people are getting paid to play.
There is absolute no " perfect " in archery. If your waiting on a perfect shot to develop automation , you will be waiting until you pick up another hobby. This is why we compartmentalize our shot. Need to work on a specific aspect , lets say release , or grip - If your not to the point of automation in both these areas your not doing the exact same thing every time , thus your getting different results every time. In return you really cant work on your grip nor release.
- most any consistent shooter has flaws in their form , as long as its automated it will be there every shot. This is where having a precise automated shot comes into play. It helps you find the whats and whys of your errors. Knowing your target faces is a part of this process. A 1/4" miss at 11:00 has a reason , lets say that reason is either A. pulling to hard , B.facial contact due to hand anchor C. pushing thru the shot too hard. - We know now the 3 places to start correcting. By correcting I mean Change our automation. Get up close and personal and rebuild a compartment at a time. ( Subconsciously nailed it , " "Embracce the power of repetition, so the action becomes fast and fluent. This means creating a practice space that enables you to reach and repeat, stay engaged, and improve your skills over time.
" Very well put sir --- there it all is in black and white ! The secret to talent is hard work , its not a gift.
After embracing this , I worked on my form until I was about 90% confident -shooting 300/ 54-57X game day with a few 60Xs here and there , I stopped tweeking my shot , grip , bars release etc. I shortened my playing field , reach and repeat. About 6 months of this no competition. Start close , by the time you get to 15 yards back , you will know your potential. Any flaws in your shot are so ingrained it does not matter at this point. Take this shot and all the confidence you have built up to game day. Stay in the now , stick to your plan , run your shot sequence 60 times. Collect your face , study your errors. Go home, make that small tweek , and reach and repeat . Game day is basically just to see how well your FLOW works. 
Watch any of Terry Ws Kids shoot , he was on to this years ago ! Braden is wonderful at getting into the flow , he walks into the building and its on.


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## AJ the TP Guru

First, let's assume you do know how to shoot the bow well, releasing smoothly.

Next, you focus on the shot, and feel comfortable with your pin floating over it.

Then, wham! The arrow has left the bow without your even thinking about pulling the trigger. That's automatic. That's your subconscious mind doing it for you the way you want it to.


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## cbrunson

justok said:


> Basically what I am preaching pertains to " advanced shooters " Have at least shot practice 60x a couple times or three


You can't say "advanced shooters" here. It gets the online coaches in a tizzy. :lol:

Without going into a "who's better" session, I can assure you I fall well within your guidelines. Both in practice and competition. But I won't say your argument doesn't have merit. There are no doubt individuals that can get in the zone and punch out an easy 60. What I will insist is that there are likely far more of us shooting three 59s to every one 60x, due to that one arrow you fell asleep at the wheel, and didn't focus 100% on. A few of them turn into 58s or 57s depending on how early you miss the first one. That 5-spot is a boring damn target.


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## justok

cbrunson said:


> You can't say "advanced shooters" here. It gets the online coaches in a tizzy. :lol:
> 
> Without going into a "who's better" session, I can assure you I fall well within your guidelines. Both in practice and competition. But I won't say your argument doesn't have merit. There are no doubt individuals that can get in the zone and punch out an easy 60. What I will insist is that there are likely far more of us shooting three 59s to every one 60x, due to that one arrow you fell asleep at the wheel, and didn't focus 100% on. A few of them turn into 58s or 57s depending on how early you miss the first one. That 5-spot is a boring damn target.



I am not looking for a who's better , bigger faster stronger - apologies if my post came across in the wrong way - 
" on line coach " = Jumbo shrimp , Both exist right ?


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> That 5-spot is a boring damn target.


I can agree with that statement.


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## cbrunson

justok said:


> I am not looking for a who's better , bigger faster stronger - apologies if my post came across in the wrong way -
> " on line coach " = Jumbo shrimp , Both exist right ?


No worries. Everyone has their take on things. Little niblets that may or my not make the difference for someone out there that the shoe fits.

The "adv shooters", "whos better" comments were kind of an inside joke for some of the old timers here.


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## aread

cbrunson said:


> .... At what point do you accept that your ability has peaked, and stop actively trying to improve?


That seems to me to be at the point where you decide that you can't repeat YOUR shot over & over. There is a point at which you have developed your shot and scores depend entirely on being able to mentally repeat that same shot. If you get too old, too weak or lose interest, and that causes you to not be able to repeat, then you have peaked.

IMO, the only thing that limits most of us is the ability to maintain interest and work hard at the sport. I know that I have the talent to shoot as good as anybody. I also know that I don't have the time, health or drive to do what needs to be done to shoot as good as anybody. I'll be retiring in a few months and I'll find out what I can do with the time to train.

In the meantime, my definition of "Advanced Shooter" as applied to me is limited to advanced age, advanced weight, advanced cholesterol, advanced blood pressure, etc. :smile:

Allen


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## Garceau

Although you may think your shot is "automatic" I have found it really doesn't become automatic quite that easy. I feel everything with the bow has to be about as perfect as it can get, because your mind has to be at ease and calm. Most people because of the pin movement have a start/stop that is battling within their brain during this process. Once they got the DL, Loop, Holding weight, and bars set so they see the most perfect sight picture they can imagine the shot will not be automatic.

Because of all that above, I think very few people have a true automatic shot.

I know I don't - I am going through changes and because of that internal struggles with the shot within my own "system"


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## erdman41

cbrunson said:


> That 5-spot is a boring damn target.


Only after you miss your first X


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## Bobmuley

SonnyThomas said:


> I can agree with that statement.


I third the nomination


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## Bobmuley

erdman41 said:


> For me aiming or sight picture is automatic. I talk myself through my shot process. Problems occur when I don't talk myself through and let things happen automatically.


 I've known a few like you...

Change of subject - I always wondered about some of the top trigger punchers (Dietmar and Tim for examples) and think. If pulling through a back tension can be done "subconsiously" (read "automatic"); then why can't an index finger be subconscious/automatic as well?


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## SonnyThomas

Bobmuley said:


> I've known a few like you...
> 
> Change of subject - I always wondered about some of the top trigger punchers (Dietmar and Tim for examples) and think. If pulling through a back tension can be done "subconsiously" (read "automatic"); then why can't an index finger be subconscious/automatic as well?


I believe it can be. I did so well competing with my Scott Mongoose. I still use it for hunting.


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## mergera

I just got back from the range and too much thinking can ruin a shot. The more of the shot sequence that is done "automatically" the easier it is to focus on what is important for me to make the shot and that is back tension and release.


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## billk63

aread said:


> In the meantime, my definition of "Advanced Shooter" as applied to me is limited to advanced age, advanced weight, advanced cholesterol, advanced blood pressure, etc. :smile:
> 
> Allen


I can relate to that.

Really enjoying this thread. Some excellent insights being put forth.

If I'm reading this right, the consensus is that there really is no such thing as an 'automatic' shot.


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## loujo61

SonnyThomas said:


> I believe it can be. I did so well competing with my Scott Mongoose. I still use it for hunting.


Weird how people can be wired so differently, I can't handle a trigger in any shape or form, first I start punching it then it gets so bad that I can't even hold the pin on the target. About the only thing I can handle is a two finger hinge, give me a three or four finger hinge and I will cheat it. With the two finger all I do is line up the sight picture - even out the pressure on my index and middle finger and pull, if it is any more involved than that I get hung up.


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## EPLC

If anyone thinks there is no such thing a an "automatic" shot then explain why every sports performance book I read says it is a must? Also, when LeBron James shoots a 3 right at the buzzer, how much thinking is going on?


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## RCR_III

Even punching a trigger or controlling a shot is an automatic response. 

I've got a lot of research on the topic based on psychology reports and I can assure that it's an automated response, no matter what we're doing. There's different levels of it, yes; but still automated.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> I believe it can be. I did so well competing with my Scott Mongoose. I still use it for hunting.





loujo61 said:


> Weird how people can be wired so differently, I can't handle a trigger in any shape or form, first I start punching it then it gets so bad that I can't even hold the pin on the target. About the only thing I can handle is a two finger hinge, give me a three or four finger hinge and I will cheat it. With the two finger all I do is line up the sight picture - even out the pressure on my index and middle finger and pull, if it is any more involved than that I get hung up.


From another thread;
cbruson; "Heck, every aspect I think. It was just a year or two Levi dropped the bomb that most pros don't use their back to fire a hinge. You'd have thought the sky was falling around here. People were going crazy. Some were admitting to using thumb triggers, some were rotating hinges, others weren't using T shape form, and there were even a few aiming instead of just letting it float haphazardly around the bale."

Sonny; "I believe Levi said he didn't use back tension to fire a hinge. He also threw a "curve" with French tuning using 20 and 40 (or 50) yards and "you're good to go" (or words to that effect).
Word was out way before Levi let it known right here on AT - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924 - "

Cheating is now a accept manner of firing a hinge...so you're not cheating.

Check out a Scott Mongoose single caliper index release. There is no adjustment of the trigger except travel. Actually, draw weight is the only thing keeping the jaw shut. For my hunting of the time and my target bow draw weight was set 67 and 62 pounds respectively. Using a string loop I just tried the Mongoose with pulling as hard as I can and I doubt it takes 1 pound to fire. 
I'd get on target, start aiming, touch my index finger to the trigger and forget it. Aiming all the while the release fires. Not once do I think to pull.

Used the Mongoose in club and state sanctioned events, 3D, Indoor, Outdoor, and Field. I placed and won a at least 100 times from year 2000 through 2005. I switched to a thumb release as the very end of 2005. I don't think I shoot a thumb release any better than I did my Mongoose.

Switched to hinge this past October and a few 3 fingers on-hand. 5 months and not once did I pick up my thumb release. Failure and a waste of time is what it is, but my old Stanislawski Deuce (2 finger) makes me feel good. I don't think with a thumb release. It's haul back and shoot. The hinge, it's think all the time and it adds up to work; make sure thumb is on the pulling post, draw and not fire, anchor and not fire, aiming is okay, release the pulling post (a big failure here), think relax, relax, relax and at the point feeling of losing the hinge it fires. It works great some times and utter disaster at other times. Busted and lost at least a half dozen arrows.


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## Pete53

its even automatic when you shoot a deer if you practice the right way.the buck I killed this year I only remember the pin on buck`s center of lungs and buck running away with his tail down and tipping over. but I still can not remember the releasing of the arrow or the arrow moving out of the bow it was all automatic.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> If anyone thinks there is no such thing a an "automatic" shot then explain why every sports performance book I read says it is a must? Also, when LeBron James shoots a 3 right at the buzzer, how much thinking is going on?


I never said there is no such thing. Will say it is not the only way to do things and be successful. I've tried it and it didn't work for me.

Not everyone's brains are wired the same way.

If Lebron wasn't fighting a clock would it be different? Say like shooting a free throw? Watch pros shoot free throws and they go thru their same shot routine every time. Probably why their ft % is higher than their fg%.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> I never said there is no such thing. Will say it is not the only way to do things and be successful. I've tried it and it didn't work for me.
> 
> Not everyone's brains are wired the same way.
> 
> If Lebron wasn't fighting a clock would it be different? Say like shooting a free throw? Watch pros shoot free throws and they go thru their same shot routine every time. Probably why their ft % is higher than their fg%.


Wasn't referring to anything that you posted prior to this one. I do not agree that free throws are any less automatic than any other shot, at least for those that are shooting them at a high level. Having something "automatic" doesn't mean "unconscious". Take driving a car for example. I'm quite aware of what's going on but not really thinking about the body movements that I am constantly using to perform. In an emergency "everything" becomes automatically performed. The better skilled at driving you are the better those automatic maneuvers will be performed. 
At the level you shoot I think you'd be amazed at how much of your shot is automated.


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## EPLC

billk63 said:


> I can relate to that.
> 
> Really enjoying this thread. Some excellent insights being put forth.
> 
> If I'm reading this right, the consensus is that there really is no such thing as an 'automatic' shot.


I was referring to any posts that may have formed this perception (last sentence)


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## subconsciously

Practice begins when you get it right. This is a moment when you reflect on what just happened and you strive to go there every time. When this is done over and over and over - you can become automatic. Anytime a conscious thought on what you are doing enters your mind - you are no longer automatic. Until that point of perfection is reached auto-pilot is your enemy.


.02


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## Lazarus

I am convinced that a great deal of the argument regarding "automatic" shots and "subconscious" shooting, has risen due to the popularity of the indoor game. Here you have a totally controlled environment, a standard distance, only 3 target options with 2 of those being identical with the exception of one scoring ring. Bottom line, perfect repetition is what scores perfectly at 20 yards indoors on whichever target you choose. Nothing changes, no variables. Now, throw in the fact that competitively, I don't know the numbers, but a *vast* majority of archers (and even some coaches,) this is all they know, again, *competitively,* because that's all they do other than maybe fling a few arrows in the back yard or basement at ten yards. Nothing wrong with that, indoor archery has brought a lot to the sport, Vegas is probably the largest archery event in the world. That's awesome. 

Now, the value of the short game or 20 yards indoors to develop a shot, or "process" can't be disputed. However, there's a whole lot more to archery than the 20 yard game. If you want to talk about "automatic" or "subconcious" shots it should probably remain in theory. It may be a good theory. But when it comes to archery games other than "indoor" the value of an "automatic" shot diminishes a great deal. Why? Because of all the variables thrown in, the elements, different distances, different target sizes at those distances, lighting, footing, the list goes on. 

I will just challenge anyone that thinks that you shoot your best by shooting "automatically" to step on an unfamiliar field course and see how that works out for you. It just, will, not, work. You try to take some text book "voodoo" approach of "automatic" shooting to the field (and even 3D) course you are going to experience an amazing failure rate. Why? Because you are being introduced to specific conditions constantly that you could not possibly have experienced enough times previously to make "automatic." You could not have experienced that precise footing, with that exact light, with that exact wind, target size and distance the thousands of times it takes to make it automatic, and do it sometimes from four different stakes on a target. Bottom line, you have to think. 

Now, what I have just said in no way minimizes the voodoo approach to the short game or indoor archery. I am just pointing out that due to indoor archery's popularity some of these theories are becoming somewhat gospel. They are not gospel. Some of these theories work to a degree on a flat field @ 50m, some of them work in the Olympic venue as well I'm sure but have no experience with it. However, in the field and 3D world these theories value diminishes greatly. The theories can assist you in developing a shot, of course, but when uncontrolled variables are introduced you have to be able to think through the variables in order to translate that shot process into desired results. If you don't your "automatic" will cause you to miss a shot on the 35 fan of the field course.  

My .02. Hope someone finds it to be a "contribution."


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> If anyone thinks there is no such thing a an "automatic" shot then explain why every sports performance book I read says it is a must? Also, when LeBron James shoots a 3 right at the buzzer, how much thinking is going on?


The beauty of practicing your own game is that you are free to go at it any way you choose. If you feel you can achieve greater results with that approach, you just might. I would be welcome to hearing your success story.


----------



## Padgett

I was a happy and confident shooter until the day when I went to a indoor league night and saw my first pro indoor guy, I had no idea how bad I really was and how freaking awesome a pro indoor shooter was. 

For the next 3 years I forced my hinge to fire and I forced my sight pin to stay on the x and I actually beat that indoor guy a couple times when he dropped a couple x's and I shot 59x. I shot around 40 or so 60x games in practice during those years in practice only and in competition with other people I only shot as high as 59x.

"I Can Not Do That Again"

Those three years of indoor were about the most horrible experience of my life, I lived in the shooting range pizzed off and trying to get myself to get pumped up to shoot scoring rounds and when I went to competitions I couldn't really socialize or enjoy the time there, I just focused on forcing myself to force the shot to break at the right time and force my sight pin to stay in the freaking x all the freaking time. 

Just typing out this makes me not want to shoot remembering how horrible it felt.


----------



## Bobmuley

Lazarus said:


> I am convinced that a great deal of the argument regarding "automatic" shots and "subconscious" shooting, has risen due to the popularity of the indoor game. Here you have a totally controlled environment, a standard distance, only 3 target options with 2 of those being identical with the exception of one scoring ring. Bottom line, perfect repetition is what scores perfectly at 20 yards indoors on whichever target you choose. Nothing changes, no variables. Now, throw in the fact that competitively, I don't know the numbers, but a *vast* majority of archers (and even some coaches,) this is all they know, again, *competitively,* because that's all they do other than maybe fling a few arrows in the back yard or basement at ten yards. Nothing wrong with that, indoor archery has brought a lot to the sport, Vegas is probably the largest archery event in the world. That's awesome.
> 
> Now, the value of the short game or 20 yards indoors to develop a shot, or "process" can't be disputed. However, there's a whole lot more to archery than the 20 yard game. If you want to talk about "automatic" or "subconcious" shots it should probably remain in theory. It may be a good theory. But when it comes to archery games other than "indoor" the value of an "automatic" shot diminishes a great deal. Why? Because of all the variables thrown in, the elements, different distances, different target sizes at those distances, lighting, footing, the list goes on.
> 
> I will just challenge anyone that thinks that you shoot your best by shooting "automatically" to step on an unfamiliar field course and see how that works out for you. It just, will, not, work. You try to take some text book "voodoo" approach of "automatic" shooting to the field (and even 3D) course you are going to experience an amazing failure rate. Why? Because you are being introduced to specific conditions constantly that you could not possibly have experienced enough times previously to make "automatic." You could not have experienced that precise footing, with that exact light, with that exact wind, target size and distance the thousands of times it takes to make it automatic, and do it sometimes from four different stakes on a target. Bottom line, you have to think.
> 
> Now, what I have just said in no way minimizes the voodoo approach to the short game or indoor archery. I am just pointing out that due to indoor archery's popularity some of these theories are becoming somewhat gospel. They are not gospel. Some of these theories work to a degree on a flat field @ 50m, some of them work in the Olympic venue as well I'm sure but have no experience with it. However, in the field and 3D world these theories value diminishes greatly. The theories can assist you in developing a shot, of course, but when uncontrolled variables are introduced you have to be able to think through the variables in order to translate that shot process into desired results. If you don't your "automatic" will cause you to miss a shot on the 35 fan of the field course.
> 
> My .02. Hope someone finds it to be a "contribution."


I've always enjoyed the variability of field and 3D shoots. It's more of a thinking man's game. However, I still think that on most every occasion there's 3 seconds of an automatic shot. Things that may take me out of my automatic shot are extreme contortions for super steep up and downhillers. These tend to be "working" shots for me. I have to work through those. The other biggie is gusting wind. A normal breeze or steady mild wind I can still rely on more automation, but the gusts make me once again work "during" the shot. 

For me at least, taking into account the variable conditions and "thinking" occurs before. I think about setting the site to the cut, footing, wind, bubble, etcetera before "the shot".


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> At the level you shoot I think you'd be amazed at how much of your shot is automated.


I think you would be amazed at how many boxes I check off in my head on every shot.


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## Padgett

The best winter of shooting I have ever had was a few years ago after I have given up those Forcing Approaches, I spent two or so years doing nothing but shooting perfect shots. I would shoot until I had a beyond perfect feeling shot and then I would spend weeks learning how to duplicate that feeling over and over until I felt a even better feeling perfect shot and then I would make it my new normal shot. My whole goal back then was to get to the point where every time I pulled back the shot felt exactly the same as the last one, I got to the point where I could do it around a hundred times in a row without feeling one shot that felt different. During that winter once I got there I could stay in a 5-spot x all week long every shot. 

The biggest difference between now and then is I don't shoot indoor every day, for me I never have been able to take days off and be dead on perfect. When I shoot every day for 3 hours or so I can carry over those feelings to the next day and not skip a beat but when I skip days it just fades away. I don't change my execution just because I take a few days off but it is the perfect feeling that fades away.

Right now for me it is coming down to both of my daughters being in multiple sports and I have game nights three nights or more per week so I may only get two nights of shooting indoor. 

So in my experience I have totally forced myself to be a strong shooter who could compete but hated every moment and I have also trained myself into becoming a smooth strong shooter that actually enjoys his time on the shooting line. Right now I am choosing to enjoy every minute with buddies and shoot smoothly and have a good time and once I get past the next few years of ball games I hope to have the desire to train each and every day again and shoot at my potential. I am looking forward to it.


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## Lazarus

Bobmuley said:


> I
> 
> For me at least, taking into account the variable conditions and "thinking" occurs before. I think about setting the site to the cut, footing, wind, bubble, etcetera before "the shot".


That's what makes you great I'd say. You've found what works for you. That approach doesn't work so well for me. Case in point, yesterday a particularly nasty 45 yard walk up shot with all four stakes being on a pretty steep slope. It's level right to left but you are basically standing like a stork on one foot due to the angle, especially on the 45. On that kind of shot I have to stay in (thinking) the shot the whole time. Because I know there is going to be a few or fractions of a second that it's going to settle before you begin to waver a bit. Therefore I have to get right up on the release and be super aggressive with the shot process when that time of quiet comes. I, personally can't do that without thinking about it. I also find that if I focus harder on what I have to get done it makes you forget momentarily about the distraction of standing there like a flamingo. 

Here's the result of that target, it's a little loose but I'll take it on those stakes every time.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> At the level you shoot I think you'd be amazed at how much of your shot is automated.


No disrespect to you Paul, but you're basically telling a guy that is on the short list of 60x Midwest Open shooters that he doesn't know what is going on during his shot process.


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## montigre

carlosii said:


> Good thread.
> I have never asked anybody what their thought process is when they're making a shot and this has provided some good idea to that point.


I had done just that a few years ago. I wanted to know what some of the top Pros and Amateurs thought while executing their shots (for the record, everyone asked was a multiple National Champion). A few of the shooters (Tim G, Frank P and Jesse B) commented that they did not know what they were thinking. Two made a joke about it and stated they thought of how they would beat each other (brothers Wilde there). Two, Larry H and Mike L, stated that if you're thinking, you're not shooting your bow.

This confirms that anyone who really wishes to excel in the sport has to have their shot down to the point where it does occur automatically and that means hours upon hours in practice establishing not only the muscle memory needed, but perhaps even more importantly, the confidence to "let go" and allow the shot to happen without interference. 

This will be my focus this year...


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## erdman41

cbrunson said:


> No disrespect to you Paul, but you're basically telling a guy that is on the short list of 60x Midwest Open shooters that he doesn't know what is going on during his shot process.


Well that was my only 60 in a tournament so I'm more of just a flash in the pan at the moment. Second string arm chair quarterback if you will.

I understand the automatic concept. I drive a lumber boom truck. It has a crane on it that has me using both hands and both feet to operate. Now I can make the crane do what I need it to do without thinking most of the time. But when a case arrives that requires some delicate finesse I slow down take my time and think it through.

The driving situation I understand too. But my aiming isn't cruising back country roads on a Sunday. It's more like being caught on freeway between two semis going 80 mph in 6" of snow. Little more focus required for one of those situations.


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## Lazarus

You know, after an intense head to head or shoot off I've never once heard a top shooter say "all that movement, all that shaking, it was just automatic." I have on the other hand heard them say, quote; "I just focused on my process to keep my mind off it." It may be just me, but I don't define "automatic" as thinking about my process (check list) to keep my mind off it.


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## RCR_III

Lazarus said:


> You know, after an intense head to head or shoot off I've never once heard a top shooter say "all that movement, all that shaking, it was just automatic." I have on the other hand heard them say, quote; "I just focused on my process to keep my mind off it." It may be just me, but I don't define "automatic" as thinking about my process (check list) to keep my mind off it.


I've also heard several shooters say that the best way to get in someone's head and make them mess up is to ask them what's going on during their shot and make them think about it.....


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## Lazarus

RCR_III said:


> I've also heard several shooters say that the best way to get in someone's head and make them mess up is to ask them what's going on during their shot and make them think about it.....


I never thought about that. I'd say some lower level shooters might think that way, I've never asked. Most top shooters are more concerned with their own performance than having time to try to get in someone else's head.


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## RCR_III

*The &quot;AUTOMATIC&quot; shot?*



Lazarus said:


> I never thought about that. I'd say some lower level shooters might think that way, I've never asked. Most top shooters are more concerned with their own performance than having time to try to get in someone else's head.


This was something I heard from an Easton Podcast talking about pro archers.


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## Lazarus

RCR_III said:


> This was something I heard from an Easton Podcast talking about pro archers.


My statement wasn't based off of second hand info. It was my own experience from being around them. Some of them aren't really pro's though, just Olympic Gold and Silver medalists. :cheers:


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## erdman41

So I guess I should sell his book now?


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## cbrunson

More to the point of the topic, there are no doubt significant parts of the shot process that are in fact automatic. If you consider things like foot placement, shoulder alignment, and all the other basics as parts of the shot process. That is the main reason I look at the shot process as simple as possible, and let those basics take care of themselves. Those parts are automatic, but the actual “go” part is not. It’s very involved. For me. But then again I have it broken down to a couple of very specific tasks to get right. With those comes several cues that tell me whether to keep going, or back out and reset or start over. How other people crawl into that place I believe is very personal, and likely unique to the individual. 

You’ll know it when you see it. If you never do, I suppose it doesn’t hurt anyone if you keep stabbing around in the dark. But do consider the implications surrounding the concept of repeating the same poor performance, expecting something better to happen. 

Learn how to make a good shot, and know what it is when you get it, if you ever hope to repeat it. It takes a lot of hard work studying what exactly you are doing both right and wrong to get there.


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## Padgett

I agree with cbrunson in his last post so much, I have learned everything that I need to learn and when I put in the work day after day after day and earn the right to score I will do just that. If I choose to let life get in the way then so be it. Sooner or later you have to just put in the time.


----------



## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> More to the point of the topic, there are no doubt significant parts of the shot process that are in fact automatic. If you consider things like foot placement, shoulder alignment, and all the other basics as parts of the shot process. That is the main reason I look at the shot process as simple as possible, and let those basics take care of themselves. Those parts are automatic, but the actual “go” part is not. It’s very involved. For me. But then again I have it broken down to a couple of very specific tasks to get right. With those comes several cues that tell me whether to keep going, or back out and reset or start over. How other people crawl into that place I believe is very personal, and likely unique to the individual.
> 
> You’ll know it when you see it. If you never do, I suppose it doesn’t hurt anyone if you keep stabbing around in the dark. But do consider the implications surrounding the concept of repeating the same poor performance, expecting something better to happen.
> 
> Learn how to make a good shot, and know what it is when you get it, if you ever hope to repeat it. It takes a lot of hard work studying what exactly you are doing both right and wrong to get there.


You make a conscious effort to commit to the shot, which I would say everyone does. After that point though, are you consciously controlling your trigger and punching?


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## RCR_III

Padgett said:


> I agree with cbrunson in his last post so much, I have learned everything that I need to learn and when I put in the work day after day after day and earn the right to score I will do just that. If I choose to let life get in the way then so be it. Sooner or later you have to just put in the time.


If you feel you've learned everything you need to know, then you've hit a plateau to stay exactly where you are right now. If you want to improve you have to continuing learning and seeking information. Whether that's outside sources or internal data from analyzing your shot. 

We're always learning.


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## Rick!

erdman41 said:


> So I guess I should sell his book now?


I'll see yer LB and raise with a pre shot pyramid... 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bobmuley

Rick! said:


> I'll see yer LB and raise with a pre shot pyramid...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think I got more out of this golf book than any of the archery stuff. :thumbs_up


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## Bobmuley

I'm very interested in hearing Erdman's process (aiming automatically, shot routine, and how "auto-aiming" transfers over to something like 3D).

I know that mine is step-by-step up to a point and my "auto-finish" doesn't last all that long (2-4 seconds).


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## Padgett

Your lecture is not ok for you to have done to me, this waiting until you can find a way to subtly make a comment is not ok. 

I was 100% honest when I mentioned that I can not shoot at my level right now, I am honest that I am not earning the right to be good because I am not putting in the time needed to be really good. When I can afford it I go to national shoots and have a good time and if you want to go to the asa website and see my horrible placing then go do it because the scores are right there to be seen. Why? Because I actually go and pay my entry fee.

For you to imply that I am done learning is a attack when you know that I push the limits of teaching tuning and shooting in a way that everyone can hopefully learn. I have mentioned many times that I love my current execution and how I do things and that I just am not putting in the time to shoot at a high level. 

To be really clear just in case you missed out, I have not reached a plateau. I have went backwards and am not as good as I once was because I am not shooting as much.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> No disrespect to you Paul, but you're basically telling a guy that is on the short list of 60x Midwest Open shooters that he doesn't know what is going on during his shot process.


No, I didn't say that at all and I would love to be able to shoot like either he or you shoot. Still I do not believe that anyone shooting at a high level does not have much of their shot automated. In order to repeat the same motion over and over again that motion has to be automated. Just the ability to place your hand on the grip the same way over and over is automated. If it were not then you would not be able to tell when it was off. Sure, the conscious mind can be used as a spell checker, but the initial placement is automatic. Do you know off the top of your head what arm goes in first when you put on a shirt? Try doing it the with the other arm and let me know if it is automatic. 

As for myself, having switched from RH to LH I can tell you that the simplest parts of the process had to be built into an automated state. Try and shoot opposite hand and you'll see how much of your shot is automated.


----------



## cbrunson

Bobmuley said:


> I'm very interested in hearing Erdman's process (aiming automatically, shot routine,...


Have you seen the movie 'Happy Gilmore"?

He goes to his happy place, much like that, only I'm not sure the characters are all doing the same things as in the movie. :lol:


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> You know, after an intense head to head or shoot off I've never once heard a top shooter say "all that movement, all that shaking, it was just automatic." I have on the other hand heard them say, quote; "I just focused on my process to keep my mind off it." It may be just me, but I don't define "automatic" as thinking about my process (check list) to keep my mind off it.


This is all semantics. Going through a checklist gives the conscious mind something to do to keep you out of trouble while the subconscious does its job. That said, I'm amazed how a really interesting discussion can be turned into a pissing contest (not aimed at you, just a general observation of just about every thread that has any interest).


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## erdman41

cbrunson said:


> Have you seen the movie 'Happy Gilmore"?
> 
> He goes to his happy place, much like that, only I'm not sure the characters are all doing the same things as in the movie. [emoji38]


Grandma's kissing the cowboy and the midget on the trike is dressed like Paul Stanley not Gene Simmons. But yeah it is similar.


----------



## erdman41

EPLC said:


> This is all semantics. Going through a checklist gives the conscious mind something to do to keep you out of trouble while the subconscious does its job. That said, I'm amazed how a really interesting discussion can be turned into a pissing contest (not aimed at you, just a general observation of just about every thread that has any interest).


Now I'm confused. So as I'm going through my checklist and I get to soft hands and I notice I have some tension in them so I relax them what category is that in? Or I notice my peep not centered and make that correction? Or my release wrist isn't straight?


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Well that was my only 60 in a tournament so I'm more of just a flash in the pan at the moment. Second string arm chair quarterback if you will.
> 
> I understand the automatic concept. I drive a lumber boom truck. It has a crane on it that has me using both hands and both feet to operate. Now I can make the crane do what I need it to do without thinking most of the time. But when a case arrives that requires some delicate finesse I slow down take my time and think it through.
> 
> The driving situation I understand too. But my aiming isn't cruising back country roads on a Sunday. It's more like being caught on freeway between two semis going 80 mph in 6" of snow. Little more focus required for one of those situations.


I believe that intensified focus is automated as well, or at least it can be. About 15 years ago I did a lot of commuting from RI to NJ. I had this hot Acura Integra GT going about 80 and was approaching a split in the highway where I was going to bare right on the two way split. As I entered the split a can that was taking the left split suddenly went right and directly in my path. My car went through several sudden maneuvers that avoided the accident. I don't remember exactly what I did but I was conscious of the movement but my conscious mind had nothing to do with it.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Now I'm confused. So as I'm going through my checklist and I get to soft hands and I notice I have some tension in them so I relax them what category is that in? Or I notice my peep not centered and make that correction? Or my release wrist isn't straight?


Well, it sounds like you may need some work in those areas. The more you can automate those portions of your shot the fewer corrections you will be needing.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> Well, it sounds like you need some work in those areas. The more you can automate those portions of your shot the fewer corrections you will be needing.


Most of the time everything is good to go as I go through my checklist. But I don't want to only hit the x most of the time.


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## Bobmuley

erdman41 said:


> Now I'm confused. So as I'm going through my checklist and I get to soft hands and I notice I have some tension in them so I relax them what category is that in? Or I notice my peep not centered and make that correction? Or my release wrist isn't straight?


That's all process/conscious side. Do you work the entire shot this way and just keep the sight/target "in the background"? 

I played around with this late fall/early winter, but I had a hard time being precise. I could keep things in the gold or white indoors but dropped Xs and 10s.


----------



## erdman41

Bobmuley said:


> That's all process/conscious side. Do you work the entire shot this way and just keep the sight/target "in the background"?
> 
> I played around with this late fall/early winter, but I had a hard time being precise. I could keep things in the gold or white indoors but dropped Xs and 10s.


I would say I do nost of my checklist items in what I would call settle in phase. Some happen before drawing obviously. But yeah during this target and sight are kinda in the background. My hinge has a ton of travel so I'm not worried about a shot happening. Once I feel I'm set up well I pay a little more attention to the target and slowly point my index finger towards it.

My bad shots are not the ones that take too long. Bad things happen for me when things happen too fast. But that's a discipline problem.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> No, I didn't say that at all and I would love to be able to shoot like either he or you shoot. Still I do not believe that anyone shooting at a high level does not have much of their shot automated. In order to repeat the same motion over and over again that motion has to be automated. Just the ability to place your hand on the grip the same way over and over is automated. If it were not then you would not be able to tell when it was off. Sure, the conscious mind can be used as a spell checker, but the initial placement is automatic. Do you know off the top of your head what arm goes in first when you put on a shirt? Try doing it the with the other arm and let me know if it is automatic.
> 
> As for myself, having switched from RH to LH I can tell you that the simplest parts of the process had to be built into an automated state. Try and shoot opposite hand and you'll see how much of your shot is automated.


All these analogies....... SMH.

When I'm using precision tools, I do precision work. I can hit the head of a nail with a hammer without missing most of the time. Should I expect the same results stabbing a thread at the eye of a needle? No matter how many times you do it, you still have to slow down and look really close and guide it in with finesse.

Every time you compare it to golf or basket ball, or any other sport with an expected miss percentage, you are dumbing it down. What is the expected miss rate for 20 yards at the pro level in archery? 

Jose Calderon has the highest single season free throw percentage in NBA history when he made 151 of 154 free throws for 98.1% in the 2008-2009 season. At 98%, that would put the top archers scoring at 294 in Vegas. Over the last 10 seasons, the NBA as a whole shot 75.58-percent from the free throw line. That is a 300-45x, 5-spot game.

What is par on a field course?

Can I adjust these statistics to better suit the point I'm trying to make? You bet. That is the problem with using analogies. No matter where, or how long you look for warm fuzzy feelings that make you perform better, you have to have a complete understanding of what it takes to get it there repeatedly. Not just occasionally or most of the time getting a good shot, but every shot, all the way to the end, with your mistakes as small and infrequent as you can manage.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I believe that intensified focus is automated as well, or at least it can be. About 15 years ago I did a lot of commuting from RI to NJ. I had this hot Acura Integra GT going about 80 and was approaching a split in the highway where I was going to bare right on the two way split. As I entered the split a can that was taking the left split suddenly went right and directly in my path. My car went through several sudden maneuvers that avoided the accident. I don't remember exactly what I did but I was conscious of the movement but my conscious mind had nothing to do with it.


Don't confuse intense focus with instinctive reaction. Some people pin it and shoot for the gap in a crisis situation while others panic and freeze. Not at all the same as reasoning with a wiggly sight pin.

If a robber comes at you with a knife and you point and shoot at center mass, you are not a sniper.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Well, it sounds like you may need some work in those areas. The more you can automate those portions of your shot the fewer corrections you will be needing.


Now wait a minute here........ Who wants to shoot like who, again?


----------



## loujo61

SonnyThomas said:


> Switched to hinge this past October and a few 3 fingers on-hand. 5 months and not once did I pick up my thumb release. Failure and a waste of time is what it is, but my old Stanislawski Deuce (2 finger) makes me feel good. I don't think with a thumb release. It's haul back and shoot. The hinge, it's think all the time and it adds up to work; make sure thumb is on the pulling post, draw and not fire, anchor and not fire, aiming is okay, release the pulling post (a big failure here), think relax, relax, relax and at the point feeling of losing the hinge it fires. It works great some times and utter disaster at other times. Busted and lost at least a half dozen arrows.


For me it's just the opposite, a thumb button or any trigger causes me to think or at least have to do something to make it fire. With the two finger hinge I just hold in the middle and pull my sight picture in a straight line till it fires, no thinking just an all inclusive process. If I do the relax thing to make my hinge fire I get highs and lows, I just try to pull evenly with my index and middle finger, for me when everything lines up it usually goes off. I use a click and I want it to click right after I release the thumb post and come to anchor, I think that is the only time I consciously relax to get the rotation, the rest of the shot process is "automatic"...


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## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> ..The more you can automate those portions of your shot the fewer corrections you will be needing.


Why? The conscious side can still work on one thing (and one thing only) at a time...and that frees up the subconscious to do its thing...whatever that may be. It just depends on what part you want "control" of.


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## cbrunson

erdman41 said:


> I would say I do nost of my checklist items in what I would call settle in phase. Some happen before drawing obviously. But yeah during this target and sight are kinda in the background. My hinge has a ton of travel so I'm not worried about a shot happening. Once I feel I'm set up well I pay a little more attention to the target and slowly point my index finger towards it.
> 
> My bad shots are not the ones that take too long. Bad things happen for me when things happen too fast. *But that's a discipline problem*.


This has been my experience as well. If I can ever beat that discipline thing......well, you know.


----------



## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> Now wait a minute here........ Who wants to shoot like who, again?


Hey I can shoot like you most of the time... I can hit 45 out of 60Xs - so for those 45 times I am just as good as you. My good Friend and coach use to say you're no different than a Pro when you hit the X.


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## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> Hey I can shoot like you most of the time... I can hit 45 out of 60Xs - so for those 45 times I am just as good as you. My good Friend and coach use to say you're no different than a Pro when you hit the X.


That's a great way to look at it. A positive perspective will do a lot more for you than a negative one. Just don't go offering Reo suggestions on how to improve his form.

I get that anyone can be a good coach if they can say inspiring things, or catch you falling out of what you've conquered in practice, but telling someone how to hit Xs that is counting inside outs, is getting in a little over your head. There are some big battles you have to conquer to shoot a 30x Vegas game. While it should be as simple as making 30 good shots, it's really not.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> Now wait a minute here........ Who wants to shoot like who, again?


If I hear you correctly; I'm not supposed to make reasonable suggestions to anyone that's a better shooter than I am? Am I not supposed to question anyone that shoots better than I do? And is the person that I addressed my suggestion to at a point where he is satisfied with his game? Did you ever consider that all of this conscious activity may be what separates good to excellent shooters from the truly elite?


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> If I hear you correctly; I'm not supposed to make reasonable suggestions to anyone that's a better shooter than I am? Am I not supposed to question anyone that shoots better than I do? And is the person that I addressed my suggestion to at a point where he is satisfied with his game? Did you ever consider that all of this conscious activity may be what separates good to excellent shooters from the truly elite?


Free country do what you want.

But I'm going with Padgett on this one. I've read and witnessed the type of dedication it takes to be able to compete with the top guys. And once you put in that kind of dedication it guarantees you nothing.

I love to shoot my bow and compete. But I also love my wife and kids and want to remain married. I'm content with the level I'm at being fully aware I'm right were I deserve to be based off of amount of time I put in.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> If I hear you correctly; I'm not supposed to make reasonable suggestions to anyone that's a better shooter than I am?


I don't, and no I don't recommend it. Out of respect more than anything. In fact, I don't recommend offering suggestions unless they are asked for, even for those struggling. I may give examples of things that have worked for me in specific scenarios, but I strongly discourage second hand information, given the likelihood of misinterpretation from someone that hasn't experienced the full benefit of the information, hands on.




EPLC said:


> Am I not supposed to question anyone that shoots better than I do?


The gray area between knowledge and experience is a matter of perspective only to those who don't have the experience.




EPLC said:


> And is the person that I addressed my suggestion to at a point where he is satisfied with his game?


His game? No. His shot? You bet. As he said, his problem is discipline on those very few shots that miss. Specifically being a shot that he tried to rush for whatever reason, when he knows that if he follows his planned shot process without error, he will center punch the X. He doesn't need to rethink his whole process. If you are doing it right 59 times out of 60. you don't fix the 59. You fix what happened wrong with the one.




EPLC said:


> Did you ever consider that all of this conscious activity may be what separates good to excellent shooters from the truly elite?


No, because I know exactly what separates us. Time on the line in both practice and competition. Experience on the big stage. Confidence.

I know some of those guys personally. They put in the time that most of us just simply don't have to spend. Reo was shooting 300 arrows a day this indoor season. That's ten Vegas games. Do you think he knows what it takes to win?

If I powered through, non-stop, I could probably knock that out in about 7 hours. I work a ten hour day at my day job that pays for all my archery fun, so if I want to stay married and do other things I like doing, I can't commit to shooting that much. I know from my own experience that there is a huge difference in my ability between practicing 100 arrows, 4-5 days a week, and 100 arrows, 2-3 days a week. Meaningful practice, not mindlessly flogging the bale.


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## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> That's a great way to look at it. A positive perspective will do a lot more for you than a negative one. Just don't go offering Reo suggestions on how to improve his form.
> 
> I get that anyone can be a good coach if they can say inspiring things, or catch you falling out of what you've conquered in practice, but telling someone how to hit Xs that is counting inside outs, is getting in a little over your head. There are some big battles you have to conquer to shoot a 30x Vegas game. While it should be as simple as making 30 good shots, it's really not.


I'm not offering Reo advice and thanks for warning me about the deep stuff that you're in. And, I didn't realize this was a discussion about shooting all Xs.


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## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> I'm not offering Reo advice and thanks for warning me about the deep stuff that you're in. And, I didn't realize this was a discussion about shooting all Xs.


Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as me accusing you of doing those things. I was just adding things to my statement that having a positive attitude towards your shooting and goal development is very beneficial. If that is what is going on here. I'm not sure.


----------



## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> That's a great way to look at it. A positive perspective will do a lot more for you than a negative one. Just don't go offering Reo suggestions on how to improve his form.
> 
> I get that anyone can be a good coach if they can say inspiring things, or catch you falling out of what you've conquered in practice, but telling someone how to hit Xs that is counting inside outs, is getting in a little over your head. There are some big battles you have to conquer to shoot a 30x Vegas game. While it should be as simple as making 30 good shots, it's really not.





cbrunson said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as me accusing you of doing those things. I was just adding things to my statement that having a positive attitude towards your shooting and goal development is very beneficial. If that is what is going on here. I'm not sure.


I'm not sure either


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## EPLC

I'll try again. You go through your shot routine, 1 check, 2 check, 3 check, 4 and so on. I pose this question: you've gone through your shot process to the point where you are ready to execute. Are you still controlling the previous steps or are they now automatically being performed?


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> I'll try again. You go through your shot routine, 1 check, 2 check, 3 check, 4 and so on. I pose this question: you've gone through your shot process to the point where you are ready to execute. Are you still controlling the previous steps or are they now automatically being performed?


I believe they are controlled, but repetition had made them seem automated. Most say they have a check off list. If it was automatic would you have a check off list? Of all things going the execution has to start, a thought process. After the start do you think or does the shot just go off? Again, some of the best shots I've ever made I don't remember "pulling the trigger." I know the pin was where I wanted it when the shot took place.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> I'll try again. You go through your shot routine, 1 check, 2 check, 3 check, 4 and so on. I pose this question: you've gone through your shot process to the point where you are ready to execute. Are you still controlling the previous steps or are they now automatically being performed?


Tying my shoes is automatic. I don't have a check off box for make loop. Chase rabbit around tree....

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Tying my shoes is automatic. I don't have a check off box for make loop. Chase rabbit around tree....
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


The question was: Once a checkbox has been completed, does the checked activity remain in control of the conscious mind throughout the shot or does it become automatic?


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## EPLC

From a previous thread: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2387678&p=1071946097#post1071946097


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> The question was: Once a checkbox has been completed, does the checked activity remain in control of the conscious mind throughout the shot or does it become automatic?


Has to remain in control. If it didn't you couldn't shut down if something was wrong or took too long.

And over thinking has caused more problems than it has solved...

From above;
"Of all things going the execution has to start, a thought process." ??? All things in place perhaps the start of execution could be automatic as in something tells us to shoot.


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## Bobmuley

SonnyThomas said:


> *And over thinking has caused more problems than it has solved*...
> .


If I could just remember that while overthinking at times...


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> The question was: Once a checkbox has been completed, does the checked activity remain in control of the conscious mind throughout the shot or does it become automatic?


Not necessarily, but as your skill develops, your checklist becomes a short list of things that you have identified to be absolutely necessary. These are things that creep up to bite you if you don't keep them in check. Things like hand tension, peep alignment, pulling straight back instead of into your face. They may be different for you.

A big one that I hear a lot is a guy saying he felt like he was pulling the wheels off, yet the bow came off the stops into the power stroke. That's usually hand and arm tension that wont happen if you focus on keeping soft hands during the set up part of the shot process. Can it be made automatic? Maybe, but the reason it becomes part of the checklist is because it has been identified as one of those things that goes wrong when you don't pay attention to it. Same with peep alignment. Another common problem is letting the housing drop down and to the left (RH shooter) in the peep while you are rolling the hinge around your face because you instinctively pull tighter in, and bow arm out, trying to steady up instead of pulling straight back.

These are things that are discovered when the machine breaks. When your automatic shot process fails and you miss, then use some introspective analysis to figure out what exactly went wrong instead of continuing down the same rabbit hole enforcing the wrong things into your automated process.


On a side note, you seem to have figured this out back in 2014. What happened? How did it work out for you?


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## Lazarus

What Casey just said was good stuff. 

What it boils down to is; some things have to go in automatic mode, things less integral to the actual launch of the arrow. Stance, riser position in the hand, drawing the bow, this is an incomplete list, but if you can't master these simple things in "auto" your never going to be very successful.

On the other hand, there are things that are integral to the launch of the arrow, aiming, release, softening of the hands, that are a constant conscious battle to perform perfectly. Some of those things can be moved into the "auto" category with intense self discipline and practice. However, we're still human and things are going to break down, and you have to consciously be able to see that when it happens and apply the brakes so you can stop and go again. If you were operating totally in "auto" at those points you would miss and have no idea why. THEN you would say something stupid like; well, my timing was off, that's why I missed. Smh. 

I'm convinced that most top shooters can tell you exactly why they missed when they miss without resorting to something like "my timing was off." 

.02


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## EPLC

What happened? After winning the NE sectional in 2015 I suffered a shoulder injury that I've struggled to recover from. My hold just isn't what it was pre-injury.


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## Padgett

Cbrunson had a nice angle on this and a great transition into my current level:

I am not real strong right now so I have a choice to make,

1. I could overly micro manage my execution and aiming and try and make the best of it.

2. I could just let my execution run automatically and not micro manage anything and shoot smoothly.

I have over the years done both methods and had good days where I won tournaments or was really accurate but the differences are big, first of all when I have decided to micro manage things it is a very stressful day every day and I suffer and get sick of shooting. Also this type of micro manage shooting causes you to have to deal with different types of issues that don't show up when you execute smoothly as your priority. For me the issues will many times be target panic little issues with things like DIP BANG AND FUNNY LOW HOLDS that show up. Then my days when I do get to train are spent trying to fix those issues that are related to the micro managing that I have been doing. But, when I don't micro manage and only allow myself to run automatic shots the issues that come up are related to that good shooting and then my list of stuff that I need to work on is related to quality shooting and not micro managed shooting.


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## cbrunson

Well from what I've noticed, a good brain dead automatic process for me results in about a 300-50x average. Not letting the little things creep up by actively checking them off in the shot process, results in 58-60x with the amount of time I'm willing to practice. Your results may vary.


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## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> What happened? After winning the NE sectional in 2015 I suffered a shoulder injury that I've struggled to recover from. My hold just isn't what it was pre-injury
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a good read for you... http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-yips-plague-and-the-battle-of-mind-over-matter/
> 
> And another thing I heard quite a while ago.
> 
> "In fact, the person tends to over think and tries to consciously control the cognitive response (over thinking) and this only leads to further freezing on the behalf of the athlete. The key to recovery is to realize that the person is different than the performer/performance."
Click to expand...


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> What happened? After winning the NE sectional in 2015.....


You took third with a 299-40x.

https://www.nfaausa.com/wp-content/uploads/Sheet1.pdf


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## Bobmuley

Paul, you still equate winning with quality of performance and your placement as your performance result. For 300-30X, 300-60x, and 560 field shooters I suppose that their placement does equate to quality of performance because they really can't be beat in anything but a shootoff. 

For the rest of us our placement depends on how our competition shoots. Because of that it is a poor indicator of performance. You seem happy that you won with a 518F, 282A, and 532H. Not to bust chops like some...but you were in 6th after the field round. A part of your winning was due to shooting better in the hunter round, but also in others not shooting so well in the hunter. You should be happier with a 530/290/540 weekend...regardless of where you finished. Even if its at the bottom of the list. Making more good (striving for perfect) shots is the goal. Make all good shots and see where you end up. Would you be happier with shooting a 490 field round in good conditions...and winning?

Winning with anything less than a perfect score is not a benchmark. I've come off many ranges knowing I left points on the course. Those are the ones I want back. I won and/or placed high in a lot of those, but that wasn't the goal...trying to earn every point available from the targets is. 

https://www.nfaausa.com/wp-content/uploads/NE-Outdoor-Sectional-results-Sheet1.pdf


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> You took third with a 299-40x.
> 
> https://www.nfaausa.com/wp-content/uploads/Sheet1.pdf


Yes that is true, but I was referring to the 2015 outdoor sectionals... which Bob has made light of below. 



Bobmuley said:


> Paul, you still equate winning with quality of performance and your placement as your performance result. For 300-30X, 300-60x, and 560 field shooters I suppose that their placement does equate to quality of performance because they really can't be beat in anything but a shootoff.
> 
> For the rest of us our placement depends on how our competition shoots. Because of that it is a poor indicator of performance. You seem happy that you won with a 518F, 282A, and 532H. Not to bust chops like some...but you were in 6th after the field round. A part of your winning was due to shooting better in the hunter round, but also in others not shooting so well in the hunter. You should be happier with a 530/290/540 weekend...regardless of where you finished. Even if its at the bottom of the list. Making more good (striving for perfect) shots is the goal. Make all good shots and see where you end up. Would you be happier with shooting a 490 field round in good conditions...and winning?
> 
> Winning with anything less than a perfect score is not a benchmark. I've come off many ranges knowing I left points on the course. Those are the ones I want back. I won and/or placed high in a lot of those, but that wasn't the goal...trying to earn every point available from the targets is.
> 
> https://www.nfaausa.com/wp-content/uploads/NE-Outdoor-Sectional-results-Sheet1.pdf


Fact is Bob, I didn't shot very well on Saturday but shot a 532 in the pouring rain to win the shoot. Where most caved in due to the conditions, I didn't and took the shoot. You want to make light of that, fine. In 2002 I shot 642 for 60 targets in the NESFFA 3d sectionals which was the highest score recorded in the entire tournament. I don't cherish that one any more than I do the 2015 win. I also won the NE Field Championship last year in spite of my difficulties, winning by 1 point after shooting a 20 on the last target, a 48 yarder that was one of the more difficult butts on the course. I feel real good about that one too. Everything is relative Bob, how's your trophy case doing?


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## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> how's your trophy case doing?


It's empty. I gave them away to the Black Canyon Archers in 2001 after my girl was born and I bought a new washer and dryer. 

I'm not making light of your award...but rather of your mentality towards what success means. Until you clean a round "I won" doesn't mean anything because it depends on others. As long as there are points left on the board there is room for improvement. 

To end, I'll say that since you're happy with it...just keep on doing what you're doing.


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## cbrunson

Nice recovery Paul. But then we still have the 299-40x.

Wouldn’t the indoor sectionals be the prime location to display your subconscious shooting strengths rather than on a field course, where getting into a rhythm isn’t a factor?


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> Nice recovery Paul. But then we still have the 299-40x.
> 
> Wouldn’t the indoor sectionals be the prime location to display your subconscious shooting strengths rather than on a field course, where getting into a rhythm isn’t a factor?


My shooting has been an open book since day one on this board and has nothing to do with the topic... an automated shot. Alistair Whittingham, Anders Ericsson, Dr. Bob Rotella and a host of others have documented evidence that says the best performers have automated their skills to the point where there is very little to no thinking required, or in fact wanted. This single factor is one of the most critical aspects of the truly great performers. This is undisputable. This is not to say that having a shot process is a bad thing, but once you get past that checklist you'd better let that shot happen of you'll never have a book written about you. I once complemented Eric Griggs on what a good shooter he was. His response was that there are a lot of good shooters out there... what separates the truly good ones is when the money is on the line.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> My shooting has been an open book since day one on this board and has nothing to do with the topic... an automated shot. Alistair Whittingham, Anders Ericsson, Dr. Bob Rotella and a host of others have documented evidence that says the best performers have automated their skills to the point where there is very little to no thinking required, or in fact wanted. This single factor is one of the most critical aspects of the truly great performers. This is undisputable. This is not to say that having a shot process is a bad thing, but once you get past that checklist you'd better let that shot happen of you'll never have a book written about you. I once complemented Eric Griggs on what a good shooter he was. His response was that there are a lot of good shooters out there... what separates the truly good ones is when the money is on the line.


So why did you start this thread? To convince yourself (looks as if you already are)? Or to convince others (not quite as successful on that one)?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> So why did you start this thread? To convince yourself (looks as if you already are)? Or to convince others (not quite as successful on that one)?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


See below...



EPLC said:


> I think this would be a really good discussion here... not so much as looking for a fix for me, but more of a detailed discussion on the subject.


And yes, I am convinced that an automated shot is a necessary ingredient to being a truly high performer. I thought I made that clear from the beginning. There is just too much evidence to support it. What I did not intend this to be is a debate over whether or not it is important or possible or any other argument that has the sole intent of trashing another interesting topic.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> I had done just that a few years ago. I wanted to know what some of the top Pros and Amateurs thought while executing their shots (for the record, everyone asked was a multiple National Champion). A few of the shooters (Tim G, Frank P and Jesse B) commented that they did not know what they were thinking. Two made a joke about it and stated they thought of how they would beat each other (brothers Wilde there). Two, Larry H and Mike L, stated that if you're thinking, you're not shooting your bow.
> 
> This confirms that anyone who really wishes to excel in the sport has to have their shot down to the point where it does occur automatically and that means hours upon hours in practice establishing not only the muscle memory needed, but perhaps even more importantly, the confidence to "let go" and allow the shot to happen without interference.
> 
> This will be my focus this year...





justok said:


> Your shot can not be automatic if you do not have a shot. By this I mean one needs to train a shot sequence , a very detailed shot sequence that can be compartmentalized. The compartments allow you to understand where your shot is breaking down on the line. ( game day is not the same as practice day , nor is your shot ) if you do not make adjustments that allow you to shoot the way you handle game day.
> Automation in your shot is achieved via countless hours of smart training , notes and small adjustments. The learning curve becomes very subtle , but long , very long. There is no short cut , there is no natural talent.
> Training your brain to shoot single holes dead center X Creates automation in your aiming - Yes I said automation in your aiming. Aiming is the devil on fix distance competition shooting. People spend way too much time aiming. It simply creates stress , mental stress and physical stress.
> When do you start your aiming ? how long can you aim , exactly how long does your great shot take from step one of your shot sequence until closure on your shot ( every shot needs closure , then reset)
> After you find your shot , train your shot , you will find automation , once your brain trust your shot you know your gonna blow the center out of the face , aiming automaton is achieved -


Two excellent posts.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> My shooting has been an open book since day one on this board and has nothing to do with the topic... an automated shot. Alistair Whittingham, Anders Ericsson, Dr. Bob Rotella and a host of others have documented evidence that says the best performers have automated their skills to the point where there is very little to no thinking required, or in fact wanted. This single factor is one of the most critical aspects of the truly great performers. This is undisputable. This is not to say that having a shot process is a bad thing, but once you get past that checklist you'd better let that shot happen of you'll never have a book written about you. I once complemented Eric Griggs on what a good shooter he was. His response was that there are a lot of good shooters out there... what separates the truly good ones is when the money is on the line.


I enjoy your topics. You always seem to bring out the ones that get people talking. That’s a good thing…. I think. But beyond the so and so said, so it’s true thing, comes real performance. I know very well the difference between league night and Vegas. I go to a lot of shoots during the indoor season. I’ve earned a paycheck at about half of them and just missed on the others. I also have a nice silver buckle from last year outdoors. Does that mean anything since it wasn’t in the championship shoot off in Vegas. Not really. Like Erdman said, for the amount of time I put into it, I deserve to be right where I’m at.

I’m not going to answer back with what I’ve heard from someone. You know who I shoot with. What I will point out though, is that I know without a doubt what it takes for me to make a perfect shot. I CAN do it 30 or 60 times. I’ve proven that to myself this year. Can I do it when it matters? Well I’m getting better at it. I did manage a 300-27x Vegas game at the Utah Open this year. My 298-23x the day before dropped me down to third place though.


----------



## EPLC

montigre said:


> I had done just that a few years ago. I wanted to know what some of the top Pros and Amateurs thought while executing their shots (for the record, everyone asked was a multiple National Champion). A few of the shooters (Tim G, Frank P and Jesse B) commented that they did not know what they were thinking. Two made a joke about it and stated they thought of how they would beat each other (brothers Wilde there). Two, Larry H and Mike L, stated that if you're thinking, you're not shooting your bow.
> 
> This confirms that anyone who really wishes to excel in the sport has to have their shot down to the point where it does occur automatically and that means hours upon hours in practice establishing not only the muscle memory needed, but perhaps even more importantly, the confidence to "let go" and allow the shot to happen without interference.
> 
> This will be my focus this year...





justok said:


> Your shot can not be automatic if you do not have a shot. By this I mean one needs to train a shot sequence , a very detailed shot sequence that can be compartmentalized. The compartments allow you to understand where your shot is breaking down on the line. ( game day is not the same as practice day , nor is your shot ) if you do not make adjustments that allow you to shoot the way you handle game day.
> Automation in your shot is achieved via countless hours of smart training , notes and small adjustments. The learning curve becomes very subtle , but long , very long. There is no short cut , there is no natural talent.
> Training your brain to shoot single holes dead center X Creates automation in your aiming - Yes I said automation in your aiming. Aiming is the devil on fix distance competition shooting. People spend way too much time aiming. It simply creates stress , mental stress and physical stress.
> When do you start your aiming ? how long can you aim , exactly how long does your great shot take from step one of your shot sequence until closure on your shot ( every shot needs closure , then reset)
> After you find your shot , train your shot , you will find automation , once your brain trust your shot you know your gonna blow the center out of the face , aiming automaton is achieved -





cbrunson said:


> I enjoy your topics. You always seem to bring out the ones that get people talking. That’s a good thing…. I think. But beyond the so and so said, so it’s true thing, comes real performance. I know very well the difference between league night and Vegas. I go to a lot of shoots during the indoor season. I’ve earned a paycheck at about half of them and just missed on the others. I also have a nice silver buckle from last year outdoors. Does that mean anything since it wasn’t in the championship shoot off in Vegas. Not really. Like Erdman said, for the amount of time I put into it, I deserve to be right where I’m at.
> 
> I’m not going to answer back with what I’ve heard from someone. You know who I shoot with. What I will point out though, is that I know without a doubt what it takes for me to make a perfect shot. I CAN do it 30 or 60 times. I’ve proven that to myself this year. Can I do it when it matters? Well I’m getting better at it. I did manage a 300-27x Vegas game at the Utah Open this year. My 298-23x the day before dropped me down to third place though.


You are without question a good shooter, much better than I have ever been. That said, do what I do in about 30 years or so.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> See below


My apologies I did not remember the op.

Look the only reason I commented on this thread is when anyone tries to say there is only one way to do something. If you don't do whatever this way you will never be great.

Well to me that is such a bunch of BS.

That mentality cost me about two years in this sport of wasted time. Looking back I can't understand why I stayed with it.

Nobody answered if I'm suppose to sell Lanny's book now either.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Bobmuley

Don't get rid of it...in spite of all the research it can work.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> My apologies I did not remember the op.
> 
> Look the only reason I commented on this thread is when anyone tries to say there is only one way to do something. If you don't do whatever this way you will never be great.
> 
> Well to me that is such a bunch of BS.
> 
> That mentality cost me about two years in this sport of wasted time. Looking back I can't understand why I stayed with it.
> 
> Nobody answered if I'm suppose to sell Lanny's book now either.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


No apology needed. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or does. Your perception of what automation is and its importance differs from mine but so what. It works for you and I'm happy for you and in total agreement that this is a very individualized sport. I wouldn't quote Reo in my signature if I didn't feel that way. 

As for myself I have only been able to truly automate my shot on a handful of occasions... and only partially at that. It seems to be a matter of trust; during those rare times I have it I don't miss. The 2009 field nationals was one of those times. My first half of the field round ended up a 272 and I shot an extra arrow that cost me 2 points. I lost it when I took control and didn't shoot anywhere as good the second half, ending up with a 534. My other rounds were not there either putting me in the tail end of the upper third in my class. During that first half I was confident and just knew that I could not miss. Happened again on the animal round in the 2012 Nationals and there have been others. I do not know how to turn that phase of my mental game on so I continue to look a solution. Still, it has happened enough that I know it exists.


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## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> ...I do not know how to turn that phase of my mental game on so I continue to look a solution. Still, it has happened enough that I know it exists.












Which is what people are trying to help explaining. The feedback loop between the sub and con minds has to be developed. But you choose to get defensive of your practices instead. 


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> As for myself I have only been able to truly automate my shot on a handful of occasions... and only partially at that. It seems to be a matter of trust; during those rare times I have it I don't miss.......... Still, it has happened enough that I know it exists.


I know exactly what you're talking about. When I first started getting decent, I'd go up to the range and literally tear the centers out of Vegas targets without missing for a couple hours or more. Then go to a small local tournament and shoot a 293. Sure, when I was comfortable just shooting at the black hole in the center all by myself, it didn't take any thought to do it. But when things weren't just happening on their own on game day, I had no idea what to do to fix it. Now I'm getting better at fixing it, and my tournament scores are getting closer to my practice scores........and that means payouts.

Getting focused creates anxiety. It's tough to deal with. I know a lot of guys that want nothing to do with it. But if you truly enjoy being competitive, you can learn to channel that anxiety into focus. It creates somewhat of an adrenaline feeling that some of us can actually learn to enjoy. Learn to perform with that feeling and you will be among the elite. It's harder to do than it sounds.


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## cbrunson

Bobmuley said:


> Which is what people are trying to help explaining. The feedback loop between the sub and con minds has to be developed. But you choose to get defensive of your practices instead.


That's actually a good way to put it. Recognizing feedback and responding deliberately and appropriately in those crucial seconds from the time you get set, to the break of the shot...... or even possibly instinctively, but at the very least recognizing it.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> You are without question a good shooter, much better than I have ever been. That said, do what I do in about 30 years or so.


Yeah, off subject, but......
I was told by one older than me to "ride it for all it's worth." EPLC and I have some age and more aches and pains than we want, but we are still competing and still finding the upper end of the score sheet...even against the "pups."
Couple weeks ago I came up 4th in a 3D. W, who won, and I shot the 3D targets and didn't shoot the bonus target. 2nd and 3rd place shot the 12/20 bonus target. 2nd place got 20 points finishing with 291 to my 281. 3rd got 12 points, 283, to my 281. 3rd place "pup" tried to rub it in that he beat me by 2 points. I gave; "I want to see you shoot as good as I do when you're my age." I have only 50 years on him. I also have 28 years on the two that finished 1st and 2nd. 
I feel good that I'm still able to compete. 

Pretty sure EPLC started late in life. I never started competing until I was 50. Never competed in a sanctioned even until I hit 54.


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## erdman41

https://youtu.be/udy_XzjE9Ls

Here's the video of archers and brain waves.

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## loujo61

SonnyThomas said:


> Yeah, off subject, but......
> I was told by one older than me to "ride it for all it's worth." EPLC and I have some age and more aches and pains than we want, but we are still competing and still finding the upper end of the score sheet...even against the "pups."
> Couple weeks ago I came up 4th in a 3D. W, who won, and I shot the 3D targets and didn't shoot the bonus target. 2nd and 3rd place shot the 12/20 bonus target. 2nd place got 20 points finishing with 291 to my 281. 3rd got 12 points, 283, to my 281. 3rd place "pup" tried to rub it in that he beat me by 2 points. I gave; "I want to see you shoot as good as I do when you're my age." I have only 50 years on him. I also have 28 years on the two that finished 1st and 2nd.
> I feel good that I'm still able to compete.
> 
> Pretty sure EPLC started late in life. I never started competing until I was 50. Never competed in a sanctioned even until I hit 54.


Amen to that... If I can shoot as good as You Two in twenty years I will be smiling after every shot. And I have faith that you're gonna get that hinge thing.


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## Bobmuley

erdman41 said:


> https://youtu.be/udy_XzjE9Ls
> 
> Here's the video of archers and brain waves.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


This kind of stuff fascinates me,though I have a harder time believing the practical end of it. 


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## billk63

erdman41 said:


> https://youtu.be/udy_XzjE9Ls
> 
> Here's the video of archers and brain waves.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Thanks. That was it. To me that is amazing.

230% increase in accuracy in a day. That would sure save my bow shoulder some wear and tear.


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## billk63

Bobmuley said:


> This kind of stuff fascinates me,though I have a harder time believing the practical end of it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who knows what the practical applications might be, beyond the few they stated. Just the fact that it can be measured and proven is the first step.

Pretty cool.


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## cbrunson

erdman41 said:


> https://youtu.be/udy_XzjE9Ls
> 
> Here's the video of archers and brain waves.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I wonder if that is intense focus or intense "automatic" they are reaching.


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## TNMAN

----or intense placebo effect.


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## EPLC

Bobmuley said:


> Which is what people are trying to help explaining. The feedback loop between the sub and con minds has to be developed. But you choose to get defensive of your practices instead.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





cbrunson said:


> That's actually a good way to put it. Recognizing feedback and responding deliberately and appropriately in those crucial seconds from the time you get set, to the break of the shot...... or even possibly instinctively, but at the very least recognizing it.


There are posts like these that make me want to scratch my head since I am in total agreement here. Much of the contention posted in this thread are things I either agree with or haven't taken exception to. What I have said is that I believe is an automatic shot is needed for the highest levels of performance. There are oceans of evidence to back this up. Since I don't believe anyone contributing to this discussion is a world class archer, I have to wonder why so much closed mindedness on this. 
As it has been pointed out, the conscious mind can only perform one thing at a time. I don't think anyone would disagree with that yet we continue to argue that the shot isn't automatic. Certainly something must be? Brunson has stated many times that he places his focus on holding in the middle. While I have no doubt he is doing this, I wonder what makes the shot go off? If the shot is executed with conscious intent then the focus on centering would have ended. Unless one end of the shot is controlled automatically, you would end up with a ping-pong effect. Since this is what I struggle with, I assure you it doesn't work. 
This is why I asked for a discussion on automating the shot. What we got was a debate on the value of an automatic shot process.


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## cbrunson

TNMAN said:


> ----or intense placebo effect.


Very well could be. Similar to the minor change effect, where you have a brief period where you believe a minor change was beneficial, when you are actually just focusing more or trying harder to see if the change was in fact beneficial.


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## Lazarus

cbrunson said:


> I wonder if that is intense focus or intense "automatic" they are reaching.


Very interesting and intriguing.

Couple of key things I heard in the video. The lady makes a statement towards the end that said something like "we're teaching the individual to *control.*" Think about that. IF they are controlling it, is it automatic? 

Second thing, my real grasp of psychology goes little beyond pavlov's dog, but I don't see "metacognitive awareness" as a function of the subconscious. 

Last, they used amateurs in the test. I'd like to see the same test done with a group of today's top Pro archers using the technology vs a test group that didn't. I'd pretty much bet there would be no difference in performance. 

.02


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## SonnyThomas

billk63 said:


> Thanks. That was it. To me that is amazing.
> 
> *230% increase in accuracy in a day*. That would sure save my bow shoulder some wear and tear.





Lazarus said:


> Very interesting and intriguing.
> 
> Couple of key things I heard in the video. The lady makes a statement towards the end that said something like "we're teaching the individual to *control.*" Think about that. IF they are controlling it, is it automatic?
> 
> Second thing, my real grasp of psychology goes little beyond pavlov's dog, but I don't see "metacognitive awareness" as a function of the subconscious.
> 
> Last, they used amateurs in the test. I'd like to see the same test done with a group of today's top Pro archers using the technology vs a test group that didn't. I'd pretty much bet there would be no difference in performance.
> 
> .02


The old saying; If it sounds too good to be true..... 230% increase is a bunch. And is it long lasting? Seems studies are done like Laz notes, under control so to make things look better than they are. Makes you wonder....Like the "Hit The Gold" thing, not done here in the States, but overseas.


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## Padgett

Here is a question, I do believe that you can really only think about one thing so when I am shooting good I find myself picking something to think about to give my conscious thought something to do. Why? Because when I shoot with a complete blank slate it seems like to me that when the little things on my check list pop up they cause me to miss where if I have that one thing that I am thinking about it kind of gets my mind involved and those things on my check list don't have as big of a effect causing me to miss. 

Here are some of the things that I might think about when I am shooting:

1. "Getting to conclusion", This involves touching my release hand to my shoulder after the bow fires.

2. "Following through into the X", This is consciously thinking about the feeling of the bow jumping forward a little into the x as the bow fires.

3. "Pressure" This is knowing the exact amount of pressure in my system and feeling it remain the same during the shot.

4. "Float" Just focusing on it and watching how small it can be, I don't try and force it or control it I just watch it and focus on it.

So, the question is am I using that one conscious thought correctly by giving it something specific to think about?


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## Padgett

I totally forgot, right now my conscious thought that I have been working on it my exhale during the shot. I have always been a breath holder so adding this to my shot routine is totally new so I come to anchor and let my shot take care of itself and I just concentrate on taking the same breath amount each shot and then smoothly letting it exhale through my nose smoothly the same each time. So I wish I had it on the list I just made above.


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## loujo61

All this micro managing for what? Put the bow in the right spot of your hand, stack your bones in behind the bow and line up the sight picture and pull. I can't believe the elite shooters do all this micro managing (thinking) when the light goes green. Yes manage your shot process to a T but all this extra thinking for what? All this "thinking" makes me think that your shot process must be fatally flawed from the start.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Since this is what I struggle with, I assure you it doesn't work.


 Ya, I've wanted to use that logic myself a few times......since I can't do it, no one can.


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## BillieGates

There is a definitive answer to your problem: practice.

If you really want to be that good, practice until your eyes bleed. Practice until you're convinced that practicing isn't helping your shot and hasn't for years.

I am by no means on the level of the shooter that you were talking to but I have spoken to 60X's top shooter, Todd Lambright about how much he practices and surprisingly he said "not too much".... his shot is automatic because he put in his 10,000 hours over the course of the last decade. His body doesn't know anything else. I swear he would have a harder time missing the target than hitting an X


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## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with that yet we continue to argue that the shot isn't automatic.


I don't recall anyone saying no part of shooting a bow is automatic...only that they don't automate the same things. 

You need your conscious thought to train your subconscious what to do before handing over the reigns. That doesn't mean that I'm training my subconscious to do the same as CBrunson, you, or anyone else. 

In my opinion...just "doing" isn't good enough. You can blank bale all you want and perhaps you'll end up in the same place, but you really have to give conscious effort to the part you're trying to ingrain in your subconscious. I'll use what I tried similar to Erdmans process for automating the aiming side: I would visualize what I wanted my sight picture to look like at full draw, right down to the little circles the dot followed in the yellow, then at full draw I would "coach" the subconscious with mental statements of "center, good, thats it there, thats what I want". I didn't even have to fire the shot to learn it. 

I abandoned that approach in favor of returning to automating the end of the firing sequence after about 5 weeks back in November. I went out and shot some 50s Wednesday night after the open discussion with Erd because I still feel like its a viable option for me (if I dedicate the proper time to it - I'll pick it back up this fall). So, I sat there at 50, imagined what I wanted my sight picture to look like with the fiber pin in the middle of the white while I concentrate on execution. 

It worked just fine without my mind bouncing back and forth between the target and my shot. Now, I wouldn't say its fully ingrained enough to compete with or how it would perform in pressure situations, but it was also a slow process that without any real hitch. There's different conscious cues used (focus on aiming is "pull the middle of the X out" versus focus on execution is "be patient, shoot strong"). 

Now I'd already been through this, but it's been awhile so I don't even know that I'd call it fully automated...but at least its temporarily automated. 

I think tune-ups of the automated parts of the shot are probably a good idea to reinforce the subconscious on a regular basis. Visualize it, coach it, reinforce it. 



Loujo61 said:


> I can't believe the elite shooters do all this micro managing (thinking) when the light goes green. Yes manage your shot process to a T but all this extra thinking for what? All this "thinking" makes me think that your shot process must be fatally flawed from the start.


Michael Braden had something like a 24-step checklist we discussed after I blanked a target in Redding. There was no perceptible reason for the way-short arrow (sight was set and the shot felt and looked great)...apparently I missed a simple step like setting the arrow on the blade or nocking above the loop. I don't know, never will, but I did not recall doing either of those steps because they were "automatic". No conscious thought went into it so recalling what I did was not available. 



Padgett said:


> Because when I shoot with a complete blank slate it seems like to me that when the little things on my check list pop up


Same here. If I leave my mind a total blank something will fill that void. It might be archery related, or it might not. I might have super focus on the x and mentally pat myself on the back, or I might be suddenly wondering how many miles I have left on the truck before the oil needs to be changed. So, I try to keep the mind busy with what I want it to be focused on.


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## cbrunson

Good stuff right there ^^^^

I had a similar experience in Redding a couple years ago at the pro am. Arrow hit the dirt about halfway to the target. Now a quick glance at the rest to make sure the arrow is on it, is on my checklist.


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## EPLC

Here's a real gem from GRIV that I worked on today. The improvement in my shot was very noticeable. This would be something that I would like to make automatic and provides me some understanding of blind baling. As mentioned above, I also found that I am better off letting the aiming portion of my shot be the automated end point while I consciously pull through the shot. Since this seems to be the natural course for me, maybe I will actually get rid of the ping-pong paddle at some point. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIQo0fZVIro&feature=youtu.be


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## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> Good stuff right there ^^^^
> 
> I had a similar experience in Redding a couple years ago at the pro am. Arrow hit the dirt about halfway to the target. Now a quick glance at the rest to make sure the arrow is on it, is on my checklist.


I get that part of your mental checks prior to the aiming but wasn't it you that said you talk yourself through the shot? Some thing like - "OK the pin is there"- then proceed to the next step until the shot breaks. I'm not sure my head couldn't handle that, I pull my sight picture inline and go, now if things aren't lining up or are going awry I should know enough that something is wrong and let down. I allow the shot after all systems are go... automated IMO, I can't think about lightening up my hands or breathing a certain way when the light turns green because I may stop pulling or loose my focus. I'm I interpreting that right... Do you think through the whole execution process one step at a time?


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## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> I get that part of your mental checks prior to the aiming but wasn't it you that said you talk yourself through the shot? Some thing like - "OK the pin is there"- then proceed to the next step until the shot breaks. I'm not sure my head couldn't handle that, I pull my sight picture inline and go, now if things aren't lining up or are going awry I should know enough that something is wrong and let down. I allow the shot after all systems are go... automated IMO, I can't think about lightening up my hands or breathing a certain way when the light turns green because I may stop pulling or loose my focus. I'm I interpreting that right... Do you think through the whole execution process one step at a time?


Yes, part of the busy mind thing. If I don't, like Bob said above, I will miss one crucial step eventually, or gradually, and miss an X. When that happens, it is usually because some other thought entered the picture. Gotta be thinking about something, it might as well be the process instead of what I might be having for dinner later.

Do some looking into the one arrow phenomenon if you haven't already.


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## SonnyThomas

If no one minds; Padgett, your PM Box full. I got your PM. We're good.


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## montigre

GRIV is live streaming part of his LAS seminar now:


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## ILOVE3D

That is one great video, you can still watch it after Griv finished it


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## lvetohunt

Tagged 

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## RCR_III

It is a good video, GRIV even mentions how the shot needs to become automatic.....


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## montigre

That's why I posted the link. It seemed quite relevant to this discussion. Everyone could hear it first-hand and take it or leave it....


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## erdman41

Luckily for for people whose brains are wired differently there are other highly successful coaches that teach different methods.

















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## cbrunson

One of the biggest reasons I struggle with seeing anyone say you need to do it a certain way. It's been done probably every different way imaginable........successfully. 

What's important is figuring out what YOU need to do to be confident in your shot, and then putting in the time to develop it to its full potential. If you fall short of your expectations, it is not necessarily the fault of the process.


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## montigre

True that, but GRIV does not teach that you should do it only one way...

It was also mentioned in the video that what you practice will become what you shoot under stress. If in practice you let those shots that don't look or feel good to be shot, then when in competition, you will not have the discipline established to automatically let down and start over when needed and your scores will reflect that break in the process.


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## SonnyThomas

RCR_III said:


> It is a good video, GRIV even mentions how the shot needs to become automatic.....





montigre said:


> That's why I posted the link. It seemed quite relevant to this discussion. Everyone could hear it first-hand and take it or leave it....


:thumbs_up


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## cbrunson

montigre said:


> True that, but GRIV does not teach that you should do it only one way...
> 
> It was also mentioned in the video that what you practice will become what you shoot under stress. If in practice you let those shots that don't look or feel good to be shot, then when in competition, you will not have the discipline established to automatically let down and start over when needed and your scores will reflect that break in the process.




I do agree with that. That's why I have developed the checklist concept for myself. Like I said earlier, I could sit and shoot the black hole in the center of the yellow for hours not thinking about process, but that didn't fare so well for me on game day. What I do now, does.

For those that never venture out of the back yard, I suppose it wouldn't matter.


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## SonnyThomas

For most probably the hardest thing to do is let down. Practice it and it's not all that hard. 

Stress and the "shot?" I had about as much "stress" as I wanted at a ASA Qualifier today. Got disgusted with the hinge and changed to my Stan Shootoff. Got about 20 practice shots in yesterday, shooting in mud, water running everywhere and finally stopped by outright rain. Got to the Qualifier, my first of the year, and ended up changing from Super Senior (unknown 40) to Super Senior Known 45. Had to rely on others to range the targets and the distances ranged sure didn't look what was said the distances. Mixed in with the Qualifier was a S3DA Qualifier. So we were spaced so the kids had help from the group either in front or behind them. S3DA kids only to shoot 20 target. After the kids left the shoot went faster. Still, 4 1/2 hours to shoot 30 targets. From target 29 to target 30 was about a half mile walk (back feeling like being ripped the hike liked to killed me). Target 30 was a "display" shot for on lookers at the club house. Yeah, 30 or 40 people standing around to see if you can make the shot. That damned 30 yard 12 ring was mine. When I left said I was in 2nd place. I don't think my score will hold 2nd place.
Up at 5:00 am, 75 mile drive, 4 1/2 hours on the range, 75 mile drive home, I was numb. 7:00 I crashed. Never woke up until 10:30 pm. 

Happy time at the 3D. One I was shooting with is a really good 3D shooter. At about they halfway point he said he didn't care how he shot as long as he beat me. Old as I am I am the come back kid; "You gonna brag about beating a 68 year old man?"


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Luckily for for people whose brains are wired differently there are other highly successful coaches that teach different methods.


Total agreement that your end focus can be on either end. That said; as you go through your step by step process, doesnt the conscious mind move on to the next step? If we can agree that the conscious mind can only perform one thing at a time, what's controlling the steps that have been completed? 
Both you and Brunson have stated that you can only invest so much time into this for very valid reasons. People that perform at the highest levels of any endeavor put thousands and thousands of hours into meaningful practice. From everything I have read, the time is invested to develop and automate a skill. If you had the time and willingness to dedicate the vast amount of time we are taking here, what would be your plan and end goal if it were not to hone and automate your skill?


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## erdman41

Isn't shooting a bow a series of small tasks that need to be done the exact same way every time?

Tell yourself to touch your nose with your finger then count backwards from 100 to 0. Once you touch your nose does your finger stay there without having to think about it? Have you practiced touching your finger to your nose and keeping it there for thousands of hours?

After you try that I have one more question for you.

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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Isn't shooting a bow a series of small tasks that need to be done the exact same way every time?
> 
> Tell yourself to touch your nose with your finger then count backwards from 100 to 0. Once you touch your nose does your finger stay there without having to think about it? Have you practiced touching your finger to your nose and keeping it there for thousands of hours?
> 
> After you try that I have one more question for you.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Yes. And yes the finger stays there. Why? Because the subconscious has taken on the responsibility once your count begins. Or, I suppose you could continue to keep focus on holding the finger in place while the counting is done in the background. While I'm not sure about the second part cuz I haven't put any effort into it, I'm sure that only one end can be controlled with cognitive thought at one time.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> Yes the finger stays there. Why? Because the subconscious has taken on the responsibility once your count begins. Or, I suppose you could continue to keep focus on holding the finger in place while the counting is done in the background. While I'm not sure about the second part cuz I haven't put any effort into it, I'm sure that only one end can be controlled with cognitive thought.


So what number did you get to? Did you get all the way down to zero? If not how come?

If you did get down to zero were you able to do so without any other thoughts entering your mind? Did you count in a nice steady pace or rush through it?

Did you think it wasn't a very important step so you didn't put much focus on it?



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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Total agreement that your end focus can be on either end. That said; as you go through your step by step process, doesnt the conscious mind move on to the next step? If we can agree that the conscious mind can only perform one thing at a time, what's controlling the steps that have been completed?
> Both you and Brunson have stated that you can only invest so much time into this for very valid reasons. People that perform at the highest levels of any endeavor put thousands and thousands of hours into meaningful practice. From everything I have read, the time is invested to develop and automate a skill. If you had the time and willingness to dedicate the vast amount of time we are taking here, what would be your plan and end goal if it were not to hone and automate your skill?


You keep insisting that we are talking about micromanaging the shot with a long series of cognizant tasks that can only be focused on one at a time, and that is not the case. While there are a few specifics, it is mostly a series of cues with deliberate responses.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> If you had the time and willingness to dedicate the vast amount of time we are taking here, what would be your plan and end goal if it were not to hone and automate your skill?


Honestly I would like to try out different things. I've shot the same indoor arrows for the last 3 or 4 years I'm not even sure. I don't mess with my stabilizers or weights much. I don't experiment with my draw or loop length at all. I don't nock tune. I don't torque tune. Never even seen a hooter shooter in person. 

Discipline, patience, and focus as far as myself goes.

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## cbrunson

erdman41 said:


> Honestly I would like to try out different things. I've shot the same indoor arrows for the last 3 or 4 years I'm not even sure. I don't mess with my stabilizers or weights much. I don't experiment with my draw or loop length at all. I don't nock tune. I don't torque tune. Never even seen a hooter shooter in person.
> 
> Discipline, patience, and focus as far as myself goes.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Great post!

I'm constantly seeking improvements, but not with my equipment. No need to. It does it's job every time.


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## SonnyThomas

Our brain and bodies are wired to multi task. If form breaks down our brains tell us. If creep goes to bow trying to take off we sure damned well know it. When our pin/dot is where we want it we know it's hammer time. After that the shot goes automatic. I sure don't think about thumbing my release or engaging back tension to fire. We know to through practice, repetition.


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> Honestly I would like to try out different things. I've shot the same indoor arrows for the last 3 or 4 years I'm not even sure. I don't mess with my stabilizers or weights much. I don't experiment with my draw or loop length at all. I don't nock tune. I don't torque tune. Never even seen a hooter shooter in person.
> 
> Discipline, patience, and focus as far as myself goes.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Good Post! I could say a Great Post like cbrunson. I do try different things, but have the same arrows I bought at least 4 years ago. My MarXman has the same stabilizers and weighted the same from 2014. I don't mess with draw length unless it's off, don't even try the latest and greatest d-loop material. I quit nock tuning years ago. I only torque tuned to prove if it worked, but noted the average archer could well get along with the arrow rest set at mid point. Just got my new 2017 MX3 bow and I doubt I'll torque tune it. Never personally laid eyes on a Hooter Shooter either.
My MarXman was last tuned after the new LS3 cams were installed about a year ago. Checked the tune a couple of times to be sure. Sunday, I did my job, my bow did it's job and drilled a 2" 12 ring from 38 yards. Another shot to put the scare into those shooting was a 30 yard 12 ring just above a log. We did our jobs and the arrow centered the 1.5" 12 ring. Another shot was a double size arrow hole right on the edge of a 1 1/2" 12 ring. Get in the hole and you have a 12. I got the 12. What's to tune? If anything to tune, keep tuned, then it's me.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> So what number did you get to? Did you get all the way down to zero? If not how come?
> 
> If you did get down to zero were you able to do so without any other thoughts entering your mind? Did you count in a nice steady pace or rush through it?
> 
> Did you think it wasn't a very important step so you didn't put much focus on it?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


To be honest I think I only got to 3... and I didn't follow instructions since I started at 1. On my second try, once again being honest as I did my second attempt after reading your post, I made it all the way to 100. It was actually an interesting task. I found myself counting, pointing and thinking about the exercise. If I had to guess I think the entire thing had gone at least partially subconscious as I was in the middle between ends at our NE Indoor Sectional this morning. Btw, I shot 298 26X (14 inner) which makes that 299 40X Brunson mentioned look a lot better. 

Next to me was one of this areas better shooters. He shot 300 58X of which most were inners. He, like you, is a shot process guy. I asked him about his aiming and he responded that he lets that happen and his final thoughts are on his release.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> You keep insisting that we are talking about micromanaging the shot with a long series of cognizant tasks that can only be focused on one at a time, and that is not the case. While there are a few specifics, it is mostly a series of cues with deliberate responses.


Please explain "cues with deliberate responses".


----------



## erdman41

EPLC said:


> I found myself counting, pointing and thinking about the exercise.


That is what gets me in trouble is thinking about the exercise instead of focusing on the process and task at hand.

So touching your nose was holding the bow and counting was going through my shot routine. I need to be thinking 99-98-97....or stance, grip, shoulder placement, soft hands...staying on the moment and going through my process. It sounds like a long process but in real time maybe a few seconds.

Being focused and disciplined to be patient and go through my checklist thoroughly and completely. Knowing if I do so I already know where my arrow will hit.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Please explain "cues with deliberate responses".


Well, being a sight picture guy, my release does its job without me focusing on it. Doesn't matter whether it's my hinge or my button. I keep driving the front end until it looks right and then the shot goes. To get there is a result of mental and physical steps that are conscious thoughts based on what the sight picture is telling me. 

Have you ever experienced the "one arrow" phenomenon? The reason people shoot a lot of 299s before ever hitting a 300?


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> Well, being a sight picture guy, my release does its job without me focusing on it. Doesn't matter whether it's my hinge or my button. I keep driving the front end until it looks right and then the shot goes. To get there is a result of mental and physical steps that are conscious thoughts based on what the sight picture is telling me.
> 
> Have you ever experienced the "one arrow" phenomenon? The reason people shoot a lot of 299s before ever hitting a 300?


"...my release does its job without me focusing on it." Sounds like automatic to me? 
Actually today was the "two arrow" phenomenon


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> That is what gets me in trouble is thinking about the exercise instead of focusing on the process and task at hand.
> 
> So touching your nose was holding the bow and counting was going through my shot routine. I need to be thinking 99-98-97....or stance, grip, shoulder placement, soft hands...staying on the moment and going through my process. It sounds like a long process but in real time maybe a few seconds.
> 
> Being focused and disciplined to be patient and go through my checklist thoroughly and completely. Knowing if I do so I already know where my arrow will hit.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I'm in total agreement with this, always have been. What I said that seemed to stir the pot was, "At the level you shoot, I think you'd be amazed on how much of your shot is automated." 
Just like the finger/nose countdown, much, if not all was going on in the background... yet I was aware of it all. Something that is automatic doesn't mean you are unaware. 
I believe what we have is a matter of perception. Your perception of your shot process is what it is and it certainly is working for you. I'm looking at it a little differently.


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## EPLC

Today's Indoor Sectional was the last indoor shoot for this year. My league ended this past Wednesday and our weekly club shoots are done. I can honestly say this was the worst indoor season I've had since switching to lefty. But outdoor season is upon us and I'm looking forward to it.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I'm in total agreement with this, always have been. What I said that seemed to stir the pot was, "At the level you shoot, I think you'd be amazed on how much of your shot is automated."
> Just like the finger/nose countdown, much, if not all was going on in the background... yet I was aware of it all. Something that is automatic doesn't mean you are unaware.
> I believe what we have is a matter of perception. Your perception of your shot process is what it is and it certainly is working for you. I'm looking at it a little differently.


While you're looking at it differently, consider which of you is performing better as a result. Or maybe you can just fall back on the natural talent excuse again.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> "...my release does its job without me focusing on it." Sounds like automatic to me?


And that's only half the job.


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## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> Well, being a sight picture guy, my release does its job without me focusing on it. Doesn't matter whether it's my hinge or my button. I keep driving the front end until it looks right and then the shot goes. To get there is a result of mental and physical steps that are conscious thoughts based on what the sight picture is telling me.
> 
> Have you ever experienced the "one arrow" phenomenon? The reason people shoot a lot of 299s before ever hitting a 300?


Like so long as you are comfortable with the pin placement and alignment of the sight picture and as long as no other thoughts of uncertainty pop up into the equation then the rotation of the hinge or the increase of pressure on the button just progress... Right? "Driving the front end" is that aiming or something different?

I've shot quite a few high nineties Vegas rounds but I have always been a stare down the X shooter and just figured I lacked the focus needed to put up a 300. I searched "one arrow phenomenon" but couldn't seem to find anything relevant.


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## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> Like so long as you are comfortable with the pin placement and alignment of the sight picture and as long as no other thoughts of uncertainty pop up into the equation then the rotation of the hinge or the increase of pressure on the button just progress... Right? "Driving the front end" is that aiming or something different?
> 
> I've shot quite a few high nineties Vegas rounds but I have always been a stare down the X shooter and just figured I lacked the focus needed to put up a 300. I searched "one arrow phenomenon" but couldn't seem to find anything relevant.


What happens is when you have the skill to shoot a perfect game, but you always seem to miss one. It happens to a lot of shooters that progress to higher levels. First it may be a 300 5-spot, then a 300 Vegas, then a 60x, then a 30x Vegas. Even shooting a lot of 300 Vegas games, we tend to shoot a lot more 299s. Why 299? Why 59x?

Last year I shot almost straight 59x games in 5-spot league. A few here probably remember from the league we had going on the private group page. How does that happen? Six straight 59x games and not one 60x. Well, over the course of 60 arrows, it can be hard to keep everything working perfectly, whether it be buildup of nerves, or just losing focus gradually, getting a little more sloppy as the game continues until finally one slips out. Immediately you snap back into full focus and finish the game clean, whether it be solely due to damage control, or just the relief of pressure to shoot the perfect game. 

Once you cross that barrier, it gets easier to shoot that score again. This year I hit a 60x early and followed it up with more. The pressure to finally get one was gone, so the skill to achieve was unaffected by the target goal. Same with a 30x Vegas.

Those "elite" individuals have crossed those performance barriers. That is what separates them from us.


And yes, I aim. Consciously


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## EPLC

So, it looks like we are in agreement?


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## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> And yes, I aim. Consciously


Not trying for an AHA moment but can I then assume that your release progresses subconsciously as long as the sight picture looks good? I can only focus on one thing, I can consciously aim and the execution just happens or I can stare at the middle and consciously execute, I can't consciously do both at the same time. I'm trying to ingrain a subconscious execution with a colder non-click hinge and just wanted to pick your brain on how to do it.


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## cbrunson

The best thing I found was to practice both ends independently and then put them together. Blank bale and holding exercises. The holding exercises, or letdown drills help you identify what you need to do in the moment to minimize movement. That in turn helps you build trust in letting the shot go. Then practice on the blank bale letting the shot go.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> Well, being a sight picture guy, my release does its job without me focusing on it. Doesn't matter whether it's my hinge or my button. I keep driving the front end until it looks right and then the shot goes. To get there is a result of mental and physical steps that are conscious thoughts based on what the sight picture is telling me.


I think I've said much the same, maybe differently, but the same nonetheless.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> "...my release does its job without me focusing on it." Sounds like automatic to me?
> Actually today was the "two arrow" phenomenon


Isn't that what you wanted to know, the shot being automatic? I think most of us have that it is.


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## Bobmuley

cbrunson said:


> Well, being a sight picture guy, my release does its job without me focusing on it. Doesn't matter whether it's my hinge or my button. I keep driving the front end until it looks right and then the shot goes. To get there is a result of mental and physical steps that are conscious thoughts based on what the sight picture is telling me.
> 
> Have you ever experienced the "one arrow" phenomenon? The reason people shoot a lot of 299s before ever hitting a 300?


Do you mind me asking how much "maintenance" you do for the back half? I do about 50 3 or 4 nights a week just to keep that part of the routine running on its own.


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## cbrunson

Bobmuley said:


> Do you mind me asking how much "maintenance" you do for the back half? I do about 50 3 or 4 nights a week just to keep that part of the routine running on its own.


During the indoor season I mostly shoot games. I might shoot a few ends blank to warm up and focus on the feel of that end, but then I typically go right into scoring. I try to shoot 4-5 days a week, 100 arrows.

This time of year, I use a homemade shot trainer for ten to fifteen minutes 4-5 nights a week, and shoot 2-3 times a week.


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## justok

erdman41 said:


> So I guess I should sell his book now?





The discussion should end Right hear !


----------



## Bobmuley

cbrunson said:


> During the indoor season I mostly shoot games. I might shoot a few ends blank to warm up and focus on the feel of that end, but then I typically go right into scoring. I try to shoot 4-5 days a week, 100 arrows.
> 
> This time of year, I use a homemade shot trainer for ten to fifteen minutes 4-5 nights a week, and shoot 2-3 times a week.
> 
> 
> 
> My schedule is the opposite of yours. I end up with far more shooting days per week starting with daylight savings and struggle to get arrows in during winter/early spring.
Click to expand...


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## justok

RCR_III said:


> You make a conscious effort to commit to the shot, which I would say everyone does. After that point though, are you consciously controlling your trigger and punching?



The problem arises when you can not stop your commitment ! 
This goes from showing up with out faith in your gear , to letting the bow down.
This in and of itself is a recipe for insanity !
I am Now 100% of my capabilities. I also know what it takes to reach them. 
I have put shooting on a hold because I simply do not have the required time to reach my peak performance.
Personally I would not be satisfied , nore have fun showing up to shoot a 56X when I know my capabilities are 60X when I am committed .So i will simply wait until I have the time I need to train up and stay on that X -


----------



## EPLC

justok said:


> The problem arises when you can not stop your commitment !
> This goes from showing up with out faith in your gear , to letting the bow down.
> This in and of itself is a recipe for insanity !
> I am Now 100% of my capabilities. I also know what it takes to reach them.
> I have put shooting on a hold because I simply do not have the required time to reach my peak performance.
> Personally I would not be satisfied , nore have fun showing up to shoot a 56X when I know my capabilities are 60X when I am committed .So i will simply wait until I have the time I need to train up and stay on that X -


Just curious. What is your highest score shot in an actual tournament? I think we would have a better perspective of where you are coming from with that information.


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## EPLC

EPLC said:


> Just curious. What is your highest score shot in an actual tournament? I think we would have a better perspective of where you are coming from with that information.


I ask because you sound like you actually know what you're talking about.


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## justok

EPLC said:


> Just curious. What is your highest score shot in an actual tournament? I think we would have a better perspective of where you are coming from with that information.



I went to Kentucky two years after picking up a bow shot in the 56X range , I had shot more than a handful at of 60s , locally and leagues . I had worked with Larry Wise On my shot mechanics , and could set up my bow and arrows with the upmost of confidence , I will say I spent a few days with Nuts & Bolts while on a job in Cali , and as far as helping me understand the mechanics of setting up my bow , he was a big asset. My shot was 100% from Larry. I had yet to develop a strong Shot sequence nor a mental plan. In short I was s strong shooter putting lots of work but was not a consistent 60X shooter. I was speaking with Terry W prior to Nationals and he took the time to watch me shoot a few ends , he invited me out to his place and offered to " straighten my head out "
I was pretty eaten up with archery and poured hours into the process. I reached out to every one possible , at the highest level possible. What is amazing about the highest people in this sport , if they see you putting in the work , they will lend a hand and offer advise. Thing is if your asking " stupid questions "expect to get run of the mill answers. i.e. / 
I have competed at high levels in other sports since I was about 10 , I know the basic road maps to take. about year 3 I went to the team USA try outs and tanked , I mean bombed , standing next to the best in the world. I learned more in those 8 hours of shooting than I had to date. 
I went home and tore every thing apart. I had a shot that fell apart under pressure , which in turn made my head collapse. I stared reaching out , looking for someone to work with me i was looking for some on local . A support system of sorts. One name kept coming up in my area , he had trained Carli Cochran , who shot beside / underneath me at Lancaster>I am about 6"3 and she's 4'11 all day long. ( ironically I shot open class 6 months after picking up a bow not knowing a damn thing about the sport , finished pup mid pack , and this is when I met Larry ) So her coach seemed like a perfect fit , spoke with him and he suggested I speak with his coach of sorts ... All with in 5 minutes of me speaking with Carli , her coach , phone rings , hello this BlueX I herd you need some help. Ironically he had know ( or so says ) who I was. He ask me my goals , I stated them , we went to work.Every thing was rebuilt from my shot to my shot sequence. We developed a system that is fail proof. A sequence that will work every single time. I was shooting about 3-4 hours every day. I did not compete during this time , shot thousands of faces , took millions of notes . Made the smallest of gear tweaks.I was shooting consistant 30Xs ( vegas face ) ,in fact its the only thing my brain knew. My first competition I rolled up shot a 26X ( vegas ) and was devistated , I was on the phone before my ass hit the seat in the truck. Had a little chat worked threw the issue. Shot a few more weeks , competed again - 60X - state level , Just followed the plan. SO within 4 years a 60X shooter was born. This all came at a price.
It is safe to say I spent much time at this game,so much so it cost me a house and a marriage , and several thousands on beverages. I currently have every aspect of what it takes to realize my potential , except time. However I have put my 10,000 hours in and know what need be done when the time come I pick my bow back up. I do have a plan , I still have my goal that I will achieve there are just a few ducks that need to be put in a row. Archery is a game or relation and mental aptitude. I can not repeat the same life mistakes I made and expect to achieve my goals. 
and that sir who you are dealing with


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## justok

EPLC said:


> I ask because you sound like you actually know what you're talking about.



Its the beer speaking , and thanks ! Kind words are few and far apart in theez here parts


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## Lazarus

justok said:


> hello this BlueX I herd you need some help.


Speaks volumes right there. :cheers:

Much respect from here.


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## ride394

Lazarus said:


> Speaks volumes right there. :cheers:
> 
> Much respect from here.


I have his number from a year or 2 ago but that was when i wasn't as serious or as far along as I am now. I should reach out again.


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## justok

ride394 said:


> I have his number from a year or 2 ago but that was when i wasn't as serious or as far along as I am now. I should reach out again.


gone Fishing


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## Padgett

I haven't shot since Thursday and probably won't shoot till tomorrow, So that is going to put me right at 5 days from shooting my bow. Now what is funny is that tomorrow's shooting session will be totally a automated shot day, I am going to enjoy my shooting session and just put in a good hour and a half down by the river shooting my 3d target. I will have no goals other than putting in some good time shooting and feeling my shot. hopefully I can then put in a few days in a row and over those days the little things will become more and more solid so that I can tighten up my shooting in case I get to go to a 3d this weekend.

That kind of schedule is what I deal with lately, it is way different than shooting 45 days in a row without even one day off where 1 to 5 hours per day is standard. Becoming automated after a 45 day stretch is way different than the automation that I will feel tomorrow.


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## Bobmuley

Nothing wrong with being a responsible adult. Kudos to you.

I'm finally getting on the tail end of being Mr. Mom. Just have lacrosse, tennis, and volleyball for a few more years. Wish I knew as much about that stuff as I do shooting a bow...then maybe I'd be of some use to the girls.


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## justok

Bobmuley said:


> Nothing wrong with being a responsible adult. Kudos to you.
> 
> I'm finally getting on the tail end of being Mr. Mom. Just have lacrosse, tennis, and volleyball for a few more years. Wish I knew as much about that stuff as I do shooting a bow...then maybe I'd be of some use to the girls.


Well Bob 
YOU DO ! 
The fundamentals of becoming " elite " at most anything have the same basic road map.
When I Was 12 I had the opportunity to swim for a chance at the olympics. It was a pretty special thing , in fact unique for a 12 year old male to be given a shot at the olympics. Obviously I did not make the cut , but I can transfer everything I learned to most anything else. I was introduced to a mental game at age 11. This info has been out there for a long time just not discussed in public , well until th e2016 olympics , " mental " was the buzzword no doubt.
I promise you if you help them with looking inside , forming mental images " self hypnosis " Discipline , basically what you know about shooting it will take them further in the " game " and life - That said not knowing the age , fun , learning to work with others and basic self discipline should come first ! 
If they have " that drive " then apply what I have mentioned - 
I am sure you have tons to offer to their games if you put your mind to it ! / not trying to tell you how to be a good father by any means hope it does not come across that way !


----------



## Bobmuley

justok said:


> Well Bob
> YOU DO !
> The fundamentals of becoming " elite " at most anything have the same basic road map.
> When I Was 12 I had the opportunity to swim for a chance at the olympics. It was a pretty special thing , in fact unique for a 12 year old male to be given a shot at the olympics. Obviously I did not make the cut , but I can transfer everything I learned to most anything else. I was introduced to a mental game at age 11. This info has been out there for a long time just not discussed in public , well until th e2016 olympics , " mental " was the buzzword no doubt.
> I promise you if you help them with looking inside , forming mental images " self hypnosis " Discipline , basically what you know about shooting it will take them further in the " game " and life - That said not knowing the age , fun , learning to work with others and basic self discipline should come first !
> If they have " that drive " then apply what I have mentioned -
> I am sure you have tons to offer to their games if you put your mind to it ! / not trying to tell you how to be a good father by any means hope it does not come across that way !
> 
> 
> 
> I'm kind of a cross between Staff Sargeant Vailaua (my drill sergeant from way back when) and Bobby Knight. :wink:
> 
> I grew up a fan of Pete Rose and despite his later gambling problems, I don't regret running everything out until after the outcome was decided.
> 
> It's just the intricacies of the games that I don't understand fully. They do have the basic understanding of teamwork, discipline, how much effort is expected, and respect for the games.
Click to expand...


----------



## EPLC

justok said:


> Its the beer speaking , and thanks ! Kind words are few and far apart in theez here parts


Thanks for the great response. Sounds like you may be a tad better than "Just OK"...


----------



## justok

EPLC said:


> Thanks for the great response. Sounds like you may be a tad better than "Just OK"...


 Actually thank you ! 
For some reason you inspired me to offer up a complete truth ! 
At lest I have my archery history on " paper now " 

That said , i could simply be a key board hero , and spinning porkey pies


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## EPLC

justok said:


> Actually thank you !
> For some reason you inspired me to offer up a complete truth !
> At lest I have my archery history on " paper now "
> 
> That said , i could simply be a key board hero , and spinning porkey pies


"porkey pies" Good one!


----------



## Shadow76

loujo61 said:


> I worked with a new shooter this weekend, at twenty yards I noticed that he wasn't comfortable aiming so we moved up to ten yards, I told him to just hold in the white (5 spot) until his float got sloppy then let down. After we did the holding drill I told him to just get a good hold and pull through and execute the shot, I noticed that as he pulled he would lighten up the pressure on his trigger finger and get apprehensive with his posture. I explained to him that our eyes are very good at finding the center, that he needed to trust his float (hold) and trust his ability to line up the sight picture (aim) and that - that part of his shot routine needed to become "automatic". Next, I told him to get a good hold on the white and as he was holding I told him to look through his sight picture at the X and pull through the shot, instantly his apprehension went away. Trust your shot, focus on the middle and let your float, sight picture, and execution become one and the same (automatic).


What a man I just met him at a archery shop he saw me struggling and he offered me help he did that for 3weeks about an hour helping me out I am getting better and his buddy is allways willing to help me out also trust your shot I can't wait to sight in my yards so I could 3d shoot with him but the wait will be worth it thanks lou


----------



## Bobmuley

Shadow76 said:


> What a man I just met him at a archery shop he saw me struggling and he offered me help he did that for 3weeks about an hour helping me out I am getting better and his buddy is allways willing to help me out also trust your shot I can't wait to sight in my yards so I could 3d shoot with him but the wait will be worth it thanks lou


This is great to hear. 

Well done Shadow and Lou!


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## EPLC

*"The point of a performance process in sports is to remove the mental barriers that prevent a player from letting his subconscious govern his movements..." 
~ Dr. Bob Rotella - How Champions Think*

Dr. Rotella pretty much hits the nail on the head with this statement. Great read for anyone truly interested in the topic at hand. He covers this subject in masterly detail throughout the book.


----------



## carlosii

"Don't overthink it. You might just outsmart yourself".
GRIV


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## EPLC

carlosii said:


> "Don't overthink it. You might just outsmart yourself".
> GRIV


Here's my take on the GRIV quote:

If you do not have a shot process that you are totally confident in, you WILL overthink it. This is my last post on this topic. I am totally convinced that I have a pretty good understanding of the topic at hand. For me there is no further debate I would find useful. I have a path and willing to work it.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> This is my last post on this topic. I am totally convinced that I have a pretty good understanding of the topic at hand. For me there is no further debate I would find useful. I have a path and willing to work it.


Statistically that is not true. You will bring the topic up again a year from now. Or something very similar, because you suffer from self doubt to the extreme that you are constantly trying to find the answer in something different.

I'm sure there is a book or two written about self-imposed limitation. Maybe you should start there.


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## Tnorman78

My problem is my release. I'm still working on learning to properly shoot a hinge so my mind races with thoughts of am I doing this right.


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## aread

cbrunson said:


> Statistically that is not true. You will bring the topic up again a year from now. Or something very similar, because you suffer from self doubt to the extreme that you are constantly trying to find the answer in something different....


You are right about this. But EPLC has started some of the best threads on AT because of it. I've learned a lot of great stuff from the people that responded on these threads. 

Maybe we should compile a list of them.  It would make great reading.

Allen


----------



## Bobmuley

We're pretty fortunate in archery as a precision sport. We really only make "one shot". 

A golfer has a whole bag of clubs with different strokes with each one. A bowler has spare balls and treats each lane differently. Tennis players have different shots and court conditions. Tom Brady doesn't make the same pass twice in a row very often. 

We have one shot and no matter the target, the middle is the middle. I think that "simplicity" is what keeps some of us with active minds on the precipice of trouble. It's so simple that it's easy to automate, but also easy to get lackadaisical or distracted. We (busy minders) need to separate the different phases of shooting (training vs. performance) for what they are and keep them separated. Yet another reason to keep our mind busy before the inner coach tries helping yourself through a round. The shot is automated, consciously, during that training phase. I think, for those of us with busy minds, still have mostly-automated aspects but is just concurrent with keeping our mind busy by double-checking "the list" as the shot progresses.


----------



## montigre

cbrunson said:


> I'm sure there is a book or two written about self-imposed limitation. Maybe you should start there.


The book is Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach. Perhaps many competitors should read or re-read it...


----------



## Bobmuley

I laughed out loud reading that!


----------



## cjbowhunter

billk63 said:


> GREAT TOPIC!!
> 
> Interesting insights so far...
> 
> My $.02.
> 
> It's all about developing YOUR shot sequence, from loading the arrow, setting your grip, drawing, aiming or floating, to the almost subconscious firing and follow thru. It's a physical activity requiring muscle memory and training, but above all else, *starting within and controlled by the mind*. That's why target panic confounds all of us at one time or another and is so tough to beat.
> 
> After shooting for 40+ years, this is what I've come to realize after developing various forms of target panic. I've never shot indoors until this past winter, only 3d, and have worked hard to make a few changes in my form and shot sequence. Shot my best round of the year yesterday, and with the exception of about 6 or 8 shots, all found the yellow on a Vegas face. Thinking of the round and how more and more shots felt automatic, I can say I truly believe what I'm writing. As I look at the score card, sitting here typing this, I can recall exactly what each of those bad shots felt like. I'm not a ten ring shooter and maybe never was, but I'm seeing more tens while my goal this winter is to keep the arrows in the yellow. To me, with my bifocal dependent vision, that is a reasonable goal.
> 
> A while back, I felt part of my problem was not being able to cover the spot with my sight pin. I pulled the pin from my HHA and replaced it with a modified crosshairs that encircled the yellow ring. I posted a thread with photos and a few league shooter tried it also and liked it. After shooting two or three round a week for ten weeks, i've replaced the pin and can now float the pin on the spot and execute my firing sequence with confidence. I've unlearned the bad habits and reinforced good habits in the entire shot sequence. I'm far from perfect, but shooting well is becoming less 'work' and a lot more fun. Some recommended a hinge or thumb release as the only cure. I have found that I can shoot my thumb release better than before and some days just as good as the index release. It's more comfortable form-wise, but gets away from me more often than the index. I've not given up on the thumb but will continue to shoot both until the thumb takes over as my primary release. Another reasonable goal that is within sight by alternating between practice rounds.
> 
> Ours is a mental game first and foremost. I saw a show, maybe on Discovery, dealing in general with our brains and how they work. They wired a couple of top archers to an EEG to measure brain waves as they went thru the shot sequence. There was a measurable and distinct change between two types of waves as they aimed and fired. The shot sequence started with one wave higher than the other and as they aimed the two waves reversed position in frequency and amplitude. They called this in layman terms as 'in the zone'. They then put a few amateur archers to the same test and they did not measure the same way, with erratic accuracy the result. They then trained the amateurs to hold their fire until their brain waves reversed in the same way as the pros, the result being much higher degrees of accuracy.
> 
> This is scientific proof of and measurable definition of what can also be called an 'automatic' shot.


How did they teach then to reverse it, or hold it. The amateurs.


----------



## Wyatt gray

EPLC said:


> If anyone thinks there is no such thing a an "automatic" shot then explain why every sports performance book I read says it is a must? Also, when LeBron James shoots a 3 right at the buzzer, how much thinking is going on?


Sir I'm on 60x pro staff and I am a Vegas champion and a state champion I shoot 299s and 300s consistently and this "automatic" shot is a thing us pros talk about a lot that confuses people and what this "automatic" shot is is when you draw your bow back and set in and right as you anchor that click In the release goes off which is saying "you did everything right you may proceed to the next step" which is applying pressure to the trigger no matter what release you are using a thumb button and caliper and resistance activated or in my case a hinge and well I'm applying that pressure that is making me roll through that release I am not thinking about applying that pressure it's just happening on its own all I'm focusing on is that pin or In my case the dot sitting in the middle and that shot will brake and actually surprise me when it goes off the whole thing to this "automatic" shot is you are just focusing on the dot that's it and applying that pressure should just happen without thinking about it and it should surprise you you don't want to know when it's gonna go off. And if your like me shooting a hinge you do everything the same except instead of adding pressure to get that release to go off you relax your wrist and it will go off if the release is set right for you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wyatt gray

EPLC said:


> No, I didn't say that at all and I would love to be able to shoot like either he or you shoot. Still I do not believe that anyone shooting at a high level does not have much of their shot automated. In order to repeat the same motion over and over again that motion has to be automated. Just the ability to place your hand on the grip the same way over and over is automated. If it were not then you would not be able to tell when it was off. Sure, the conscious mind can be used as a spell checker, but the initial placement is automatic. Do you know off the top of your head what arm goes in first when you put on a shirt? Try doing it the with the other arm and let me know if it is automatic.
> 
> As for myself, having switched from RH to LH I can tell you that the simplest parts of the process had to be built into an automated state. Try and shoot opposite hand and you'll see how much of your shot is automated.


Sir us high level shooters aren't automated it's the fact that we shoot and practice so much that we know what is right and what's not. really it's muscle memory like I know when my grip is wrong it don't feel right what so ever and when you shoot as much as we do you learn it's all repetition same thing same way every time and there is no right grip and no wrong grip it's what works best for you and when you find that grip you repeat it every time 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aread

Here is an interesting thread started by Michael Braden that talks about shot sequence and which part is consciously done & which subconsciously:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115065&highlight=michaelb

Allen


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## SonnyThomas

aread said:


> Here is an interesting thread started by Michael Braden that talks about shot sequence and which part is consciously done & which subconsciously:
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115065&highlight=michaelb
> 
> Allen


Back before I joined At. The man is a credit to archery....I think the only one he didn't reply to was JAVI or maybe he gave to JAVI as Javelina? Of course JAVI is....was well known and much regarded (retired and taking it easy the last I heard of him). We talked for the longest time. Surprised wife didn't kill me over the phone bill. 

ldFalks? Wondering here...LDFalks is a coach - see ASA. 

Many are gone that gave to the thread and some still around. Daniel Boone, well thought of, comes in when he's up to it. Dan says there is no returning to archery for him. So sad.... Listed, but absent, Oxford. Ought to be Oxford's General Archery Information.


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## Bobmuley

SonnyThomas said:


> Back before I joined At. The man is a credit to archery....I think the only one he didn't reply to was JAVI or maybe he gave to JAVI as Javelina? Of course JAVI is....was well known and much regarded (retired and taking it easy the last I heard of him). We talked for the longest time. Surprised wife didn't kill me over the phone bill.
> 
> ldFalks? Wondering here...LDFalks is a coach - see ASA.
> 
> Many are gone that gave to the thread and some still around. Daniel Boone, well thought of, comes in when he's up to it. Dan says there is no returning to archery for him. So sad.... Listed, but absent, Oxford. Ought to be Oxford's General Archery Information.


yes, that is LD. Javi is Javelina (newer name v. his first handle). i too enjoyed some good conversations with Mike.

Michael gave me a little on-the-spot training advise on that very subject. man could he hold at full draw a log time back then.


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## aread

MichaelB said:


> Bob, First of all I hope you are not truly "Unconscious" for any of your shot sequence. lol ....
> Michael B


Bob, have you been able to conquer that "Unconscious" shooting yet? :wink: JK

Allen


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## Bobmuley

aread said:


> Bob, have you been able to conquer that "Unconscious" shooting yet? :wink: JK
> 
> Allen


I never did get to the point where it was as much as he wanted, but I did put conscious effort into more things...kinda like emphasizing the highlights of form/execution with more conscious effort.

I'll honestly say though, back then, that I didn't put the work in needed to instill all the habits needed to get to the point of his method of building a shot routine...I was shooting well enough that I didn't want to "ruin a good thing". I've done much better in Bobmuley v3.0, but will take Bobmuley v4.0 to fully exercise it...gonna have to start completely rebuilding my shot in a few months when my shoulder gets better. No better time to start from the ground up!

I noticed you changed your handle too!


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## aread

Bobmuley said:


> ....
> I noticed you changed your handle too!


My 12 year old son (at the time) got on my computer and I was never able to recover my password. It was easier just to change.

It sure would be nice if the guys like Michael would come on here with threads like that more often. I understand that he is one of the great guys in archery.

Allen


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## Bobmuley

aread said:


> ... I understand that he is one of the great guys in archery.
> 
> Allen


Took me a long time to recover my stuff too...Gluey helped me out. 

Michael isn't just a great guy in archery...just a great guy period from my point of view. I had talked to him a few times between Redding and that old thread and I wish I would have just went ahead and spent some time with him then to iron that stuff out.


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