# Aiming and the 15 yard drill



## EPLC

During my entire shooting career I've not believed I could hold steady enough to work on a shot that was simply held in the middle. As a result of this mindset I have tried various workarounds to avoid this issue. Some have been successful but all have been short lived. The problem with this path is that I never truly had a good understanding of my shot process (read: Mental Representation). The thread; "Are skills developed or are they natural" http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4660489 started me on a new path... The path to hold in the middle. It was pointed out that the first step in this process (I believe by cbrunson) is to accept that it can be done. At some point I did discover that I "could" hold in the middle, if only a small percentage.

After making this discovery I went into a terrible slump, couldn't hit a 30 on a Vegas face if my life depended on it, let alone a clean 300 which is my goal. Last Sunday I started shooting practice rounds at 15 yards. My focus is on holding but I am scoring each round. I started out with a 297 on Sunday but since shot a couple of 295's. I then broke the game down by half making it a 150 game. I'm still dropping an average of two per round but these are generally due to poor execution as my ability to hold in the middle is improving. Even though this drill was only started this past Sunday I'm actually seeing some positive impact at 20 yards as well. I shot a season high in my league last night. 

The hump that I'll need to overcome is wanting to focus on the spot rather than the dot. I start out well but as the game progresses I want to change my focus point. This causes a tendency to want to move the dot out of the way because it's blocking my view. I assume the answer is to let down when this happens but I am open to suggestions.


----------



## nswarcher

Have you tried a ring instead of a dot on your scope? 
Or try some aiming drills, draw, aim, let down . This will train your brain to think that it's ok to let the dot sit there on the x, 
Forgive me if i am qrong but you are focusing on your dot and not the x? If that is so it is the opposite of how i have been coached, glue your eye to that x because that's where you will naturally bring the dot to, most shots i make have my pin blurry because of the focus but i have found when I'm a little off at the shot the arrow is still going into the 10 as my body corrects the aim


----------



## dk-1

It sounds like you're peeking? If that's the case; what helped me was going from a dot to a .19 pin. Now I just focus on the X and let the pin come in and cover it. My float is roughly in and out of the X ring but within the 10 ring. If I execute a clean release it's in the X. If I shoot a 10 or 9 it's due to a bobble at the shot or a rushed shot/release. The bobbles however have become very infrequent if everything is good on my pre-shot checklist.


----------



## EPLC

nswarcher said:


> Have you tried a ring instead of a dot on your scope?
> Or try some aiming drills, draw, aim, let down . This will train your brain to think that it's ok to let the dot sit there on the x,
> Forgive me if i am qrong but you are focusing on your dot and not the x? If that is so it is the opposite of how i have been coached, glue your eye to that x because that's where you will naturally bring the dot to, most shots i make have my pin blurry because of the focus but i have found when I'm a little off at the shot the arrow is still going into the 10 as my body corrects the aim


Yes, I've tried rings. Just one of my many workarounds. Focusing on the X is what my brain wants to do but I want to retrain to focus on centering the dot. One of my issues with X focus is that the dot obstructs my view to the x making me want to move it out of the way. This is the very frustrating catch 22 that I am trying to resolve. I am currently working with a fiber up pin with a dot behind it on the lens. This seems to be close to what my brain likes (for now). My 15 yard drill is my current aiming drill. It seems to have some promise.



dk-1 said:


> It sounds like you're peeking? If that's the case; what helped me was going from a dot to a .19 pin. Now I just focus on the X and let the pin come in and cover it. My float is roughly in and out of the X ring but within the 10 ring. If I execute a clean release it's in the X. If I shoot a 10 or 9 it's due to a bobble at the shot or a rushed shot/release. The bobbles however have become very infrequent if everything is good on my pre-shot checklist.


If "peeking" is looking around the dot to see the X, I'm guilty. My fiber is .029, and as mentioned above, is in front of a dot. I also have a .019 set up the same way. The process that you describe, if I understand it correctly, is one that requires the dot to enter the sight picture as you focus on the X. This is exactly the process that I have used for years. I have had some success with it but believe I have gotten all I can out of it. As cbrunson said somewhere; when the dot is n the middle the arrow also goes there. While that may not be an exact quote, I believe this is an accurate representation of his message. I know this can happen as I'm working to improve this ability. This may be a simple visual thing that needs to be identified and worked through. I may try a clarifier to blur out the dot some and clear up the spot. This may encourage my focus to search for the dot rather than the spot.


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> Yes, I've tried rings. Just one of my many workarounds. Focusing on the X is what my brain wants to do but I want to retrain to focus on centering the dot. One of my issues with X focus is that the dot obstructs my view to the x making me want to move it out of the way. This is the very frustrating catch 22 that I am trying to resolve. I am currently working with a fiber up pin with a dot behind it on the lens. This seems to be close to what my brain likes (for now). My 15 yard drill is my current aiming drill. It seems to have some promise.
> 
> 
> 
> If "peeking" is looking around the dot to see the X, I'm guilty. My fiber is .029, and as mentioned above, is in front of a dot. I also have a .019 set up the same way. The process that you describe, if I understand it correctly, is one that requires the dot to enter the sight picture as you focus on the X. This is exactly the process that I have used for years. I have had some success with it but believe I have gotten all I can out of it. As cbrunson said somewhere; when the dot is n the middle the arrow also goes there. While that may not be an exact quote, I believe this is an accurate representation of his message. I know this can happen as I'm working to improve this ability. This may be a simple visual thing that needs to be identified and worked through. I may try a clarifier to blur out the dot some and clear up the spot. This may encourage my focus to search for the dot rather than the spot.


I'm not sure of your eye dominance...especially after switch hitting. With both eyes open, or at least non-aiming eye squinted, you should be able to look "through" the dot. Also not sure how good your vision is, but I'm kind of a proponent of a bigger dot...like what CBrunson uses that covers most of the yellow. Just aim at the big ol' ocean of yellow...As long as the black dot doesn't touch red, you're in the 10 ring. Its a more relaxed way to "hold" than little itty bitty, hard to see dots holding on the spider or arrow holes.


----------



## cbrunson

Think of it less as looking at the X and then covering it, and more of just putting the dot in the middle of the circles on the spot. It’s much easier to focus on the sight picture as a whole if you can, but if you have to look at one of them, look at the one you can see, not the one you are trying to cover. 

The one thing you don’t want to do is mistake error for inability. A bad shot is a bad shot alone. It’s not a bad game. Think about what you did or didn’t do correctly that caused the miss. I’m willing to bet nine times out of ten you missed because of a bad decision to let the shot go, rather than not being able to do it correctly. When you start looking at misses that way, you maintain confidence in being “able” to make a good shot, and punish yourself for not being disciplined. Work on being more disciplined. Focus on the ones you do right, and you will start to turn your frustration into drive.


----------



## EPLC

Bobmuley said:


> I'm not sure of your eye dominance...especially after switch hitting. With both eyes open, or at least non-aiming eye squinted, you should be able to look "through" the dot. Also not sure how good your vision is, but I'm kind of a proponent of a bigger dot...like what CBrunson uses that covers most of the yellow. Just aim at the big ol' ocean of yellow...As long as the black dot doesn't touch red, you're in the 10 ring. Its a more relaxed way to "hold" than little itty bitty, hard to see dots holding on the spider or arrow holes.


I'm right eye dominant shooting lefty with both eyes open. Most of the time it's not an issue as I've done a pretty good job of training my left eye to take over. I have difficulty looking through the dot. Historically this has been a problem for me regardless of which side I shot from. When trying to focus on the X the dot becomes either a distraction or a blinder. Either way it doesn't work out looking at the X. Over the past couple of years I've shot through a nylon washer over my lens with different size holes. The smallest hole I use is 3/8" but I've been more comfortable with 1/2"-9/16". I've used a clarifier with a 6X lens in most of these applications with reasonably good results. The problem with this setup is hat it just isn't precise enough... resulting in a inconsistent performance at times. 



cbrunson said:


> Think of it less as looking at the X and then covering it, and more of just putting the dot in the middle of the circles on the spot. It’s much easier to focus on the sight picture as a whole if you can, but if you have to look at one of them, look at the one you can see, not the one you are trying to cover.
> 
> The one thing you don’t want to do is mistake error for inability. A bad shot is a bad shot alone. It’s not a bad game. Think about what you did or didn’t do correctly that caused the miss. I’m willing to bet nine times out of ten you missed because of a bad decision to let the shot go, rather than not being able to do it correctly. When you start looking at misses that way, you maintain confidence in being “able” to make a good shot, and punish yourself for not being disciplined. Work on being more disciplined. Focus on the ones you do right, and you will start to turn your frustration into drive.


I think this is the direction I am heading. Sight picture isn't perfect yet but it's close. It's far from a natural thing for me to center the dot but I'm improving. I thank you for your very insightful contributions.


----------



## Shogun1

"It was pointed out that the first step in this process (I believe by cbrunson) is to accept that it can be done. At some point I did discover that I "could" hold in the middle, ..."

Congrats on accepting that it can be done -- regardless of whether you can do it (yet) or not!

"My focus is on holding but I am scoring each round. I started out with a 297 on Sunday but since shot a couple of 295's."

Ok -- make up your mind -- which is important, the score or the group? And what is so enamoring about 15 yards? 

Think about the usual approach to combating target panic. [I'm not insinuating that you have target panic!]. Get close, work the execution. At the end of the day, it is all about getting a stable sight picture and not disturbing that sight picture while executing the shot. This comment implies that you must have an aimpoint!

Move into 4 yards. Focus on drawing, letting the bow settle, and executing the shot while focusing only on the sight picture -- not grip pressure, not triggering the release, not movement in the sight picture. If ANYTHING distracts you from focusing on the stable sight picture -- let down. Choose to not shoot if you are distracted.

As you do this, you will find you let down a lot of shots --even at only 4 yards. If you think about why you letdown, you will start to discover those little things that create instability in your sight picture.

What I have learned from shooting close is how to pay attention to what "I" am doing. For example, am I being consistent in my grip on the bow? What happens if I have a tiny bit of pressure more toward a high wrist style than a low wrist style? How does that subtle shift affect the stability of the sight picture? How about that subtle shift of the grip toward or away from the lifeline in your palm? Have I got a little residual tension in my bow hand, or is it totally relaxed?

Shooting close has also allowed me to really come to grips with dialing the draw length of the bow to match the draw length that my form requires. (Remember to make the bow fit you and not make yourself adapt to the bow.). How does changing the draw length by a single twist in the string or cable affect the stability of the sight picture? How about a half twist? In a similar manner, what about the addition of a single ounce on the stabilizers? How about changing the angle of your stabs by a single notch -- how did that change the stability of the sight picture?

Speaking of shooting close, I have also learned how different grips on the release affect my ability to get a clean release without disturbing the stability of the sight picture.

"I assume the answer is to let down when this happens but I am open to suggestions."

This is key! Again, if ANYTHING disturbs the stability of the shot -- then let down. The bow doesn't settle? Let down! Anything creates a bobble after the sight picture stabilizes -- LET DOWN!

You will start drilling a hole in the target. Not multiple holes, a SINGLE hole. And you will get to the point that you are not having to let down as much. But you will still have to let down. BUT shooting up close at 4 yards does not punish execution errors like shooting at longer ranges. You will probably force a few shots and still stay in that single hole.

When you get to that point, you can start moving back. What you will find as you move back that tendency to force a shot now and then will result in misses. That will in turn help with three things. First, it will help you continue refining correcting the small issues that inhibit attaining a stable sight picture. Second, it will reinforce the mental discipline to only shoot the good shots and let down on the others. Third, it will create the mental confidence that you can, in fact, shoot great groups because you are focused on shooting, not on scoring! The scoring will come as a result of putting that great group in the right spot.


----------



## EPLC

"And what is so enamoring about 15 yards?"

I'm working at 15 yards because I "see" the things you mentioned better. I've shot thousands of arrows at shorter distance but had difficulty identifying the good shots from the bad. The result was a lot of sloppy shots still hit the same hole. That said; with a specific goal of just working on my hold it may provide some benefits but I seem to be comfortable with 15 at this point and intend on sticking with it. 
With the exception of moving in, your entire post makes sense. I am working on letting down when the shot isn't perfect.


----------



## loujo61

I started noticing that if I focus too much on my pin I couldn't find the middle of the target, that would tense me up even if I had a good hold. So, I started putting the pin on the X getting a good hold then slowly opening up the sight picture so I could reference where my pin was in the Yellow and bang off it goes. Keeps my brain occupied and the pin in the middle.


----------



## RCR_III

You might want to try a smaller aiming reference. One that isn't covering most of the yellow and that covers just the ten ring, or maybe even smaller if need be. This will let you brain verify that the X is still there and will induce less movement into your shot because it's not having to move as much to uncover the X. 

You may also want to work on developing your shot around timing and work with your body's natural tendencies and patterns. Your body will move the pin/dot to see the X then move back to cover it in a subconscious pattern. For example you draw back on target, set the pin/dot, then start counting and just watching. 1,1000, 2,1000, 3,1000 and the x is covered. Then 4,1000, 5,1000 the body moves to verify the X is still there. Then 6,1000, 7,1000, 8,1000 the pin/dot covers the X again. Why fight that? Know your body's natural pattern and timing and then work to consistently fire your shot within that window. Adjust the tension of the button or the speed of the hinge to start the shot and happen within the window of opportunity. In my example here, 6-8 seconds. 

Here's a visual, but it goes over the same as above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEVUX4DdOqM


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> "And what is so enamoring about 15 yards?"
> 
> I'm working at 15 yards because I "see" the things you mentioned better. I've shot thousands of arrows at shorter distance but had difficulty identifying the good shots from the bad. The result was a lot of sloppy shots still hit the same hole. That said; with a specific goal of just working on my hold it may provide some benefits but I seem to be comfortable with 15 at this point and intend on sticking with it.
> With the exception of moving in, your entire post makes sense. I am working on letting down when the shot isn't perfect.


I've been back on AT after a pretty lengthy hiatus...found the Competition Forum...and started on page 51 and worked my way to the front. You've been told lots of times of the benefits of the blind bale, blank bale, and short game. Whether you realize it or not you've fought against it every step of the way. Sloppy shots as quoted above...I'm guessing that's an execution problem (?). Biggest benefit comes from blank baling. I'm not talking flinging arrows at short range, but consciously focusing on specific elements of your form until they become ingrained in your shot process. Other than a form change, or as a tune up every now and then this is where your shot is made. 

It seems to me that you want to short-cut the benefit of the short stuff. Lets say we start with a brand new archer. I can think of no better way than to spend the first months to a year working on the following:

1-Build form at the blank bale - build their form until every shot is performed 100% correct and they know the feeling of a good shot.
2-introduce aiming at the short game - start short so they know they can sit in the middle of the X and only progress to a longer distance as they sit in the X AND perform their execution flawlessly
3-Extend range as they incorporate the two elements together.

There's many little steps along the way to find their preference for things like releases, release speed, aiming aperatures, etc, but the fundamentals are best built with no target and/or at close range. 

Being results oriented you accept a sloppy shot that hits the same hole at close range as proof that it doesn't work. Result orientation accepts a sloppy shot that hits the middle as acceptable....just ask yourself, is that something you want to try to repeat?

Be more process oriented at close quarters and realize that a sloppy shot that hits the same hole is a sloppy shot and needs to be corrected. You have to know that its better to make a perfect shot and get a poor score than it is to make a sloppy shot and luck into a good score.

If you're still making sloppy shots, how the heck is a better hold supposed to help you?


----------



## redman

Great info I had the same problem years ago and I shoot a lens with no dot in it just the lens at 15 yards for a long time and then little small dot and then up to the right size dot that worked the best for me


----------



## EPLC

After starting out pretty dismal today in warmup I pulled myself together and shot my first clean 150 from 15 yards. This was a definite sign of progress because in the past I've had difficulty identifying what was causing a bad performance... or the other side of the picture, having difficulty continuing a good performance. As soon as I decided to take over things went south. Today was different as I started out making bad shots but was able to think my way back into making good ones. The development of my mental representation is progressing nicely. I figure when I get to the point that I'm comfortable shooting 150's consistently I'll shoot for 300's. I'm in no hurry.


----------



## RCR_III

So I'm curious. Did you take anything from this thread that helped you today?


----------



## EPLC

RCR_III said:


> So I'm curious. Did you take anything from this thread that helped you today?


Honestly, nothing here from a process perspective that I haven't heard or tried before. I did enjoy your float videos as they pretty much duplicated my float patterns quite well. I'd be interested in seeing how you have your camera set up.

Perhaps I should clarify where I am at this point so folks will have a better understanding of what I'm looking for.

1. I have a sight picture that I'm comfortable with (pic below). I've tried many different size variations of dots, circles, holes, etc., and this one is comfortable and soothing for me. 
2. Over the course of many years I've tried just about every flavor of short range training, from very close out to 15 yards. What I have not done with any of these methods until now is attempt to train myself to simply hold in the middle. Some of the methods I've tried are posted above as suggestions from folks trying to help. Currently, the combination of 15 yard shooting and placing my focus on centering seems to be helping. I have found in the past much difficulty in translating short range shooting into longer distances. This has been no secret as I've mentioned this difficulty many times in my posts. There is the possibility that placing my training focus on centering could be done at shorter distances with some success but currently I'm liking the 15 yard distance as it seems to allow me to translate what I am seeing at 15 yards to 20 yards. 
3. The biggest thing I've learned recently is that it is possible for me to actually hold in the middle. This knowledge is critical to my mental representation development. As this mental representation matures I will be better able to correct errors as they occur and/or eliminate them completely.

My current training plan is to continue shooting 150 Vegas games until such time as I am shooting 150's comfortably. Once this comfort level is achieved I will raise my goal to shooting 300 Vegas rounds. When I reach some level of comfort shooting clean 300's from 15 I'll move to 20 and shoot 150 rounds... then 300's. Any suggestions as to how I might improve this plan would be helpful.


----------



## Bobmuley

At least you have a plan! Stick to it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EPLC

Even though I'm early in this process I've noticed some distinct advantages of shooting at 15 yards over shorter training distances. These are observations based on my current and past experiences shooting short range. Your results may vary.

1. The biggest advantage is that 15 yards is far enough that you don't get away with less than good shots. If I don't focus properly and make a decent shot I either miss or get a squeaker, simple as that. At shorter distances I have difficulty identifying subtle issues with my shot due to similar shot placement where at 15 these subtle errors show up on the target. 
2. What I'm seeing at 15 I can duplicate at 20. Shorter distances of 4-7 yards do not translate easily to real world distances... at least for me.


----------



## EPLC

Why very short range training can cause false confidence that isn't easily translated to real world distances.


----------



## Shogun1

EPLC said:


> Even though I'm early in this process I've noticed some distinct advantages of shooting at 15 yards over shorter training distances. These are observations based on my current and past experiences shooting short range. Your results may vary.
> 
> 1. The biggest advantage is that 15 yards is far enough that you don't get away with less than good shots. If I don't focus properly and make a decent shot I either miss or get a squeaker, simple as that. At shorter distances I have difficulty identifying subtle issues with my shot due to similar shot placement where at 15 these subtle errors show up on the target.
> 2. What I'm seeing at 15 I can duplicate at 20. Shorter distances of 4-7 yards do not translate easily to real world distances... at least for me.


You just made my point. When you learn all the lessons up close, including the mental aspect of letting down, you start moving back. As you move back, you will discover more refined, subtle changes to your gear/form to create and maintain that stable sight picture which you don't disturb in the process of executing the shot. And you will find it takes increasing levels of concentration to stay hooked up mentally and exercise the mental discipline to let down when the sight picture doesn't settle or gets disturbed. 

The key is to master each step out to longer and longer distances. I believe (not know) that the closer you are, the more likely the major improvements will come from tweaking bow fit, form, and execution process. Then as you move further out -- the amount of improvement through those avenues gets smaller and smaller. But as you move further and further out, the primary source of your improvement will come from your mental approach to the game.

Your diagram in post #19 make the point perfectly of why the super short range does not punish errors nearly as much as longer ranges.

I know you are working the Vegas target face, and I know you are committed to 15 yards because that yardage offers you benefits you don't get from closer in. Not long ago you posted your target face from 10 yards (post #153 on the "are skills natural developed or both" thread) -- and your own analysis of why you missed that one shot (which didn't have a bad result) was that you took a bad shot. Why? Just like the routine at shorter ranges -- you apply the same approach as you move out.

Now look back at post #163 in that same thread. Sonny asks a great question -- was that hold or execution? 

Does it really matter? Create a stable sight picture and then execute without disturbing the sight picture. The remedy if it is a hold problem is to keep tweaking the bow fit and set up. The remedy if it is an execution problem is to forget the score -- focus on executing without disturbing the sight picture. And the remedy for the group size not being anywhere near that of your 10 yard effort is to exercise the mental discipline to let down any time the bow doesn't settle or you create a bobble in the sight picture.

Again from your own analysis, in post #14: 
"After starting out pretty dismal today in warmup I pulled myself together and shot my first clean 150 from 15 yards. This was a definite sign of progress because in the past I've had difficulty identifying what was causing a bad performance... or the other side of the picture, having difficulty continuing a good performance. As soon as I decided to take over things went south. Today was different as I started out making bad shots but was able to think my way back into making good ones. The development of my mental representation is progressing nicely. I figure when I get to the point that I'm comfortable shooting 150's consistently I'll shoot for 300's. I'm in no hurry."

You nailed it. When you decided to "take over" -- what happened to that stable sight picture? This is why I prefer to communicate the idea of creating a stable sight picture and not disturbing it during execution -- as opposed to "holding" the sight on the X and switching focus to firing the release. 

Note: we're getting at the same point, but approaching it from a different perspective. I really only have one question in my mind -- is the sight picture stable? Yes, keep going. No, let down.

I agree with your self assessment and way forward listed in post #16. Keep hammering the 150 game till you master it. Then move on. When you master the 300 game at 15 yards (including the mastering the decision to let down), then increase the distance.


----------



## EPLC

Shogun1 said:


> Your diagram in post #19 make the point perfectly of why the super short range does not punish errors nearly as much as longer ranges.


That is my point. The chart isn't based on theory or something I read. The farther you move out the bigger the error. My experience in real world shooting and practice validates these results. 

We can avoid any further debate on this if we look at it this way. I've already shot the shorter distances, gotten what I could out of it and have worked my way up to 15. That probably makes more sense to this discussion, which is about the benefits of 15 yard training.


----------



## loujo61

EPLC said:


> That is my point. The chart isn't based on theory or something I read. The farther you move out the bigger the error. My experience in real world shooting and practice validates these results.
> 
> We can avoid any further debate on this if we look at it this way. I've already shot the shorter distances, gotten what I could out of it and have worked my way up to 15. That probably makes more sense to this discussion, which is about the benefits of 15 yard training.


Wouldn't that also validate that at longer distances it is not possible to hold on the X? I've noticed how much weight the top archers use to help them hold on the X, but that extra weight causes fatigue to someone who isn't used to it, Chance said in a recent interview that he shoots 300-500 arrows a day! How long can you hold in the middle before fatigue sets in? Add extra weight to your bow (neutral weight front to back) and practice with it then take some off when you score, try to find a new balance between you and the bow.


----------



## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> Wouldn't that also validate that at longer distances it is not possible to hold on the X? I've noticed how much weight the top archers use to help them hold on the X, but that extra weight causes fatigue to someone who isn't used to it, Chance said in a recent interview that he shoots 300-500 arrows a day! How long can you hold in the middle before fatigue sets in? Add extra weight to your bow (neutral weight front to back) and practice with it then take some off when you score, try to find a new balance between you and the bow.


Once you break that mold of believing repitition is the key element of a good shot and become capable of self-diagnosis, you can make necessary adjustments on the fly and not have a detrimental impact to your shot process. But you MUST know what a good shot is before you can get there. You have to know you can hold it there, and what, if any little changes in stab weights, mass weight, draw length, etc, will do to affect your holding ability, execution, and then where the arrow lands. Not getting into that last one here, but the point is that once Paul or anyone else figures out how to identify a good sight picture that can be reasonably achieved and a good shot process, he is not done. There is no "set it and forget it". Not if he expects to improve.

Through self-diagnosis, I can decide after a few practice ends, or even halfway through a game if I would benefit from taking one off the front or back, or even five. But that comes from doing it. Not arbitrarily, but with a purpose, knowing what is going to happen when I do it, because I know what my sight picture is telling me my body is doing. Just like adding a few clicks to the sight. 

What EPLC is doing, is discovering the relationship between sight picture and accuracy. Not comfort in execution. He needs to see that if he is disciplined enough to hold it there, it will go there. Even if the execution isn't perfect. You need distance for that. 

I know not too many buy into this concept because of a lot of what has been written or said, but it is definitely something worth exploring for anyone struggling to improve. Understanding what the sight picture is telling you is a major step in the direction of building confidence. You'll have a lot fewer of those "off days". 

You just have to be careful not to start the process too early in the learning phase, and develop tinkeritis. You have to know what a good shot is first.


----------



## Shogun1

cbrunson said:


> Once you break that mold of believing repitition is the key element of a good shot and become capable of self-diagnosis, you can make necessary adjustments on the fly and not have a detrimental impact to your shot process. But you MUST know what a good shot is before you can get there. You have to know you can hold it there, and what, if any little changes in stab weights, mass weight, draw length, etc, will do to affect your holding ability, execution, and then where the arrow lands. Not getting into that last one here, but the point is that once Paul or anyone else figures out how to identify a good sight picture that can be reasonably achieved and a good shot process, he is not done. There is no "set it and forget it". Not if he expects to improve.
> 
> Through self-diagnosis, I can decide after a few practice ends, or even halfway through a game if I would benefit from taking one off the front or back, or even five. But that comes from doing it. Not arbitrarily, but with a purpose, knowing what is going to happen when I do it, because I know what my sight picture is telling me my body is doing. Just like adding a few clicks to the sight.
> 
> What EPLC is doing, is discovering the relationship between sight picture and accuracy. Not comfort in execution. He needs to see that if he is disciplined enough to hold it there, it will go there. Even if the execution isn't perfect. You need distance for that.
> 
> I know not too many buy into this concept because of a lot of what has been written or said, but it is definitely something worth exploring for anyone struggling to improve. Understanding what the sight picture is telling you is a major step in the direction of building confidence. You'll have a lot fewer of those "off days".
> 
> You just have to be careful not to start the process too early in the learning phase, and develop tinkeritis. You have to know what a good shot is first.


From post #20 above.

The key is to master each step out to longer and longer distances. I believe (not know) that the closer you are, the more likely the major improvements will come from tweaking bow fit, form, and execution process. Then as you move further out -- the amount of improvement through those avenues gets smaller and smaller. But as you move further and further out, the primary source of your improvement will come from your mental approach to the game.

CBrunson is spot on. His first paragraph captures the central points of my first post very concisely. However, he then goes beyond that in his subsequent discussion of adjustments on the fly. And in doing so, he makes the point of my second post. He argues making adjustments based on his mental approach to the game. He argues learnings the effects adjustments -- then being mentally tough enough to know he is making good shots but not getting the results he knows he can get. 

If he is shooting well but not getting the result, he already knows the adjustments to make. 

If he is not shooting well, he isn't just tinkering in hopes of doing better.

He is absolutely correct that he has to know what a good shot is first. Well said!


----------



## loujo61

A few years ago I asked Jim Despart on here about his float and he said his pin very seldom left the ten ring on a Vegas. Isn't trying to hold on the X different than having the ability to hold on the X? I do understand the value of a good sight picture, like when you make a great fifty yard shot (3D) then move up to twenty five and miss the ten ring, that is definitely a mental thing - When your aiming at a 3D target fifty yards away your pin is taking up a lot more area on that target but your point of aim is finer because you also have the out line of the animal for reference - Up at twenty yards I can hold on the X but sometimes I get caught up in that hold and loose focus of the broader picture of where the pin is at on the animal. I can shoot a much better Vegas round by referencing my pin to the center of the Yellow than I can by TRYING to hold the pin on an X. I feel that I am ABLE to hold the pin close to the center of the Yellow but UNABLE to hold it on the X. Is being able to hold on the inside of the X achievable for everyone? Or, are the rest of us older less able archers always going to be just trying to hold on the X. I watched Dee Wilde and other older shooters at Lancaster and by the looks of the end of their stabilizers they had movement beyond the X, they still can hit the X though.


----------



## EPLC

loujo61 said:


> A few years ago I asked Jim Despart on here about his float and he said his pin very seldom left the ten ring on a Vegas. Isn't trying to hold on the X different than having the ability to hold on the X? I do understand the value of a good sight picture, like when you make a great fifty yard shot (3D) then move up to twenty five and miss the ten ring, that is definitely a mental thing - When your aiming at a 3D target fifty yards away your pin is taking up a lot more area on that target but your point of aim is finer because you also have the out line of the animal for reference - Up at twenty yards I can hold on the X but sometimes I get caught up in that hold and loose focus of the broader picture of where the pin is at on the animal. I can shoot a much better Vegas round by referencing my pin to the center of the Yellow than I can by TRYING to hold the pin on an X. I feel that I am ABLE to hold the pin close to the center of the Yellow but UNABLE to hold it on the X. Is being able to hold on the inside of the X achievable for everyone? Or, are the rest of us older less able archers always going to be just trying to hold on the X. I watched Dee Wilde and other older shooters at Lancaster and by the looks of the end of their stabilizers they had movement beyond the X, they still can hit the X though.


I think you are mixing apples and oranges. Let's put aside "holding the pin on the X" and call this centering the pin. Mount the bow in a shooting machine and center the dot. You can not possibly see the X because the dot is covering it. The farther you move back, the more of the target the dot covers. And to add to this little factoid, when you execute the shot that X that is hidden gets struck by the arrow. This is true no matter what size dot, fiber, etc. you use. Of course there will be the exception of rings but let's stick with dots and the like. Doesn't it make much more sense to look at this as a centering skill? I know thinking of it this way has helped me. 

Brunson talks about understanding the good shot. In the Anders Ericsson book "Peak" he refers to this understanding as having a good "mental representation". Two months ago or less I was in the camp that believed holding in the center was impossible for me and have always tried to stare down the X. Yes, it was impossible because the concept of staring down the X encourages movement. This is because in those rare instances when the dot actually centers and stays there you actually have to move it to see the X. For me this has been a constant battle of two forces fighting one another. The conscious part of me is fighting to center the dot and the subconscious part of me wants to move the damn thing out of the way so I can see what I'm shooting at. It's been like trying to force two like poles of a magnet together. 

I'm in my infancy with this centering thing but I do see the light. I know it's possible because I can do it. Am I able to do it every time, no, as I'm still full of the demons from the past but I am getting there. Self-diagnosis is critical, and this can't be done without a good mental representation. My mental representation is obviously still in the development stage but I'm already seeing the benefit of the self-diagnosis ability that is developing along with it. 

We have a local competition circuit consisting of 6 archery clubs and shops that have shoots each Saturday and Sunday throughout the winter season. I shot one this morning, a Blue/White 300 round. The lighting in this particular shop was poor. I let that bother me and as a result really struggled for the first 10 ends. About the 9th or 10th end I told myself to stop screwing around and just center the damn thing and shoot. My last 2 ends were nothing but X's. Ok, I shot lousy today but I came away with the understanding that my recent training is paying off. Yes, I can do it, but I have to "make" myself do it. The fact that I have enough understanding of my shot to bring myself back from the quagmire is big. I see nothing but positive things coming from this new mindset and direction that I am taking.


----------



## Shogun1

Awesome last paragraph -- especially, "...but I came away with the understanding that my recent training is paying off. ... The fact that I have enough understanding of my shot to bring myself back from the quagmire is big. I see nothing but positive things coming from this new mindset and direction that I'm taking."

The main problem for all us old guys is getting stuck in a rut and being reticent to embark on the journey to improvement.

My hat is off to you for not only starting, but also for sticking to it --- especially when it is so easy to get discouraged when you seem to be going backward instead of forwards toward your goals.

Now you get to see the rewards of all that work.


----------



## loujo61

The only things that have helped me physically hold better are weight and stronger and improved form. I'm very capable of holding in the Yellow, it comes easy to me just like it came easy for Jim Despart to hold on the Vegas ten or in the X of the Blue and White target. I'm 52 years old and I can't hold as good as I use to, I can hold in the X most of the time but it's a fight, I'm not good at fighting anymore either. IMO if you are focused on the pin you won't see the X as clear when the shot breaks as you would if you were focusing on the target, there's your follow through. I do know you Guys are great shots and have much to offer but I'm just not picking up on what you're saying yet.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> About the 9th or 10th end I told myself to stop screwing around and just center the damn thing and shoot. My last 2 ends were nothing but X's. Ok, I shot lousy today but I came away with the understanding that my recent training is paying off. Yes, I can do it, but I have to "make" myself do it. The fact that I have enough understanding of my shot to bring myself back from the quagmire is big. I see nothing but positive things coming from this new mindset and direction that I am taking.


That's what it's all about right there. Knowing what to do and then having the discipline to make yourself do it. It's harder than it sounds of course, but you're never left wondering why you didn't center punch the X. The hardest part is the discipline. Just always remember that errors happen. Bad shots happen, but they don't change what a good shot is. Dont define your ability by your number of bad shots. Define it by your ability to make a single good one. Build on that.


----------



## EPLC

loujo61 said:


> The only things that have helped me physically hold better are weight and stronger and improved form. I'm very capable of holding in the Yellow, it comes easy to me just like it came easy for Jim Despart to hold on the Vegas ten or in the X of the Blue and White target. I'm 52 years old and I can't hold as good as I use to, I can hold in the X most of the time but it's a fight, I'm not good at fighting anymore either. IMO if you are focused on the pin you won't see the X as clear when the shot breaks as you would if you were focusing on the target, there's your follow through. I do know you Guys are great shots and have much to offer but I'm just not picking up on what you're saying yet.


I started shooting at 51 or 52. I'm 71 now so I'm not following your logic along these lines either. 

To our other discussion: if you are focusing on the X you can't be holding on the X. Of course you may be Superman and have X-ray vision. Just curious as to how a mere human could do this?


----------



## loujo61

EPLC said:


> I started shooting at 51 or 52. I'm 71 now so I'm not following your logic along these lines either.
> 
> To our other discussion: if you are focusing on the X you can't be holding on the X. Of course you may be Superman and have X-ray vision. Just curious as to how a mere human could do this?


71 that is quite amazing, most people would be more than happy with your game. Don't follow anything I have to say, I'm a little grumpy though three weeks ago I had carpal tunnel surgery on my left hand and this Tuesday I'm getting the right hand done, no shooting for me. Good news, the left hand is healing well and most of the symptoms are going away, hopefully it took some of the shake of it.

As for our other discussion: I fight for a solid hold then I slowly open up my sight picture to center my pin in the Yellow, I shoot a hinge so if I did it right and my sight picture is good I allow the shot, when the shot breaks I see the X because I'm focusing on the target, there's my follow through. I can't seem to allow a good shot to happen when I'm focusing on and fighting to hold the pin, then when the shot breaks I usually loose my sight picture. Also, I developed an astigmatism in my dominate eye so I have close my left eye when shooting or it will take over, when I did shoot with both eyes open I could just focus on the X without the use of any super powers and execute the shot, don't know just could.


----------



## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> That's what it's all about right there. Knowing what to do and then having the discipline to make yourself do it. It's harder than it sounds of course, but you're never left wondering why you didn't center punch the X. The hardest part is the discipline. Just always remember that errors happen. Bad shots happen, but they don't change what a good shot is. Dont define your ability by your number of bad shots. Define it by your ability to make a single good one. Build on that.


I went back to the other thread and looked over all 7 pages, I think I'm picking up what you're laying down. Good stuff, thanks.


----------



## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> I can't seem to allow a good shot to happen when I'm focusing on and fighting to hold the pin, then when the shot breaks I usually loose my sight picture.


There are a bunch of different ways to make a good shot. What's important is to find what you are comfortable with, that you can improve on. When you stall out, and stop improving, you either accept that you've reached your peak and just shoot for fun, or you start looking for little things that spark that climb again. When you've exhausted all the equipment change options you can think of, the next thing to look at is your mental approach to the game. 

Holding it in the middle is not a physical act that you "fight" to achieve. It usually won't even hold still, even if you can get it very, very close. It's believing that it's possible, and every effort to continually improve your ability, will produce better shots and ultimately higher scores. It's all a matter of getting comfortable with your shot, and trusting it. What I find is that people try something different and "instantly hate it", then go back to what they were doing before. I instantly hated using a hinge release, but stuck with it for a long time, and it made me a better shooter. Even after going back to a button. You have to trust that it will work, and work very hard for a while to see benefit from it. 

Myself, I can't just "let a shot happen". I make them happen. I'm an aggressive shooter. Call it command shooting or whatever, it's how my brain likes to work. There are times when it costs me, but every shooting style comes with both positive and negative attributes. A command shooter will typically hit more baby Xs, but when he misses, he misses bigger. A passive shooter will build up more stress and tension when the shot doesn't want break. Both are prone to developing bad habits to cheat the shot. Focusing on getting comfortable with the sight picture, understanding what it's telling you, and learning how to correct it without creating anxiety, makes every style of release execution equally effective.


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> I started shooting at 51 or 52. I'm 71 now so I'm not following your logic along these lines either.
> 
> To our other discussion: if you are focusing on the X you can't be holding on the X. Of course you may be Superman and have X-ray vision. Just curious as to how a mere human could do this?


You don't have to be superman to see both. It's no different than the eye dominance test where you can "look through your finger". 
Even crazier though is that I'm of the opinion though that you don't have to have a view of something in order to see it. As long as you know where something is located you can build a sight picture for it. 

Let's take the only part of mental representation that you've chosen to study...holding in the X. Xs is a lot different than shooting 12 rings or deer because we know where the center is, although with a little bit of visualization and planning the same thing can be accomplished. 

All your doing is building a site picture. No matter how one goes about it; look at the X and let the dot/pin cover it up as the aiming point blurs (you know it's back there) and find ease in it or look at your dot and let it fill the x, 10, or yellow. Some might not seem to work for everyone like Michael Braden's low hold with a pin -sits in the nine like a pistol shooter. But it works for some folks. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bobmuley

cbrunson said:


> ...Focusing on getting comfortable with the sight picture, understanding what it's telling you, and learning how to correct it without creating anxiety...


Reminds me of something I identified a long time ago...it's okay to be in the middle. 

So many people find it stressful and try to speed things up when it's there. At that point it's starts a nasty circle of the anxiety , tension, and trying to time the release. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EPLC

Bobmuley said:


> Reminds me of something I identified a long time ago...it's okay to be in the middle.
> 
> So many people find it stressful and try to speed things up when it's there. At that point it's starts a nasty circle of the anxiety , tension, and trying to time the release.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like this post and will put it to good use. Thanks!


----------



## Bobmuley

Sorry for the duplicate


----------



## EPLC

When I look through my finger I see two transparent fingers pointing. Looks like the non-dominant eye is the one pointing correctly and the dominant eye is off to the right. When I add a peep sight to the test things really get weird. But all of this doesn't mean much as I'm shooting with my non-dominant eye with both open most of the time. I'm experimenting with closing my dominant eye with some success but I need to work more to see what I'm most comfortable with. One of the best shooters (a 60x and 300 Vegas shooter) is blind in one eye. I have often thought this may be somewhat of an advantage for spot shooting, although a real problem for shooting 3D.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Try a Blocker


----------



## aread

Bobmuley said:


> Reminds me of something I identified a long time ago...it's okay to be in the middle.
> 
> So many people find it stressful and try to speed things up when it's there. At that point it's starts a nasty circle of the anxiety , tension, and trying to time the release.


That is very much like Len Cardinale teaches. To paraphrase: Once you are at full draw & have your sight picture, there is nothing left to do except continue the shot. Trying to speed up or make the release go off will mess up your shot.

Allen


----------



## cbrunson

aread said:


> That is very much like Len Cardinale teaches. To paraphrase: Once you are at full draw & have your sight picture, there is nothing left to do except continue the shot. Trying to speed up or make the release go off will mess up your shot.
> 
> Allen


That's pretty much the basics of it. The next level is a little more proactive, in recognizing faults and actively correcting. It's difficult to explain without getting into the forcing it vs. helping it argument, and definitely not good information for those just getting started, or those still struggling with the basics. I guess it's probably safe to say, that's where you have to find it in yourself to a point. The outside perspective can only throw out ideas from what they have experienced themselves, and hope that it translates the same for you. You are the only one that can see what does what inside those little circles. Your active or passive personality will determine what best suits your shooting style. 

The alternative considerations are things like knowing when to let down, or when to execute the shot. How do you know when to do either? When does your trigger mechanism say what you are looking at is acceptable? If you just put it close, accept what it is, without trying to achieve greater refinement, and just execute because it is "there", how do you ever hope to improve? This is why I can't buy into the probability statistics, that it crosses the center X amount of times if your float is good and you just have to accept that misses are a result of random chance of the shot breaking while the dot is outside the center and the release was good. I know that's a huge point to argue, because many well renowned individuals push the concept heavily, but the one thing I believe no one can argue is that if the hold or float never leaves the inside of the ten ring and you get a good release, it will hit the ten. Actively pursuing that refinement teaches you more than any other thing you will practice. Under normal conditions, I have it refined well enough that I know if it hit left of center still in the baby X, right at the moment the shot broke. I know if it is inside a half shaft ten. I usually only need to look through my binos to see if I may have caught a line, or if I know it was a perfect shot and I want to adjust my sight off that one. To put it simply, I know exactly why I missed every time. That is when the "actively correcting it" part comes in. Again, way too much for someone still struggling to keep it inside the nine ring.


----------



## tyohshooter

I have found this thread very helpful. I too have had trouble holding steady on target. With my hunting rig shooting a rist release I used to use a method that I like to call controlled timed release. I would time my release to shoot at the moment my pin hit the center of the target. This isn't the best method but it worked fairly well for me.
Recently I started target archery using a thumb release. This has really made me strugle since I can no longer time my release and I am forced to hold steadier on target. I recently added more weight to my stabs and this has helped a lot. Now I need to focus on the mental aspect and this thread has given me some useful tips and motivation. 
Thanks guys and best of luck.


----------



## loujo61

the best shooter in our league used to back up to twenty five yards and shoot in practice, he said that it helps you to refine your hold and makes twenty yards seem easy, he also said it helps you get comfortable with your pin float. we started practicing back there with him and our scores went up. in the yard sometimes i would start at twenty and if i shot all x i would add a click or two and a take step back and shoot the next round from there, if i missed i would move back up a step, ect. EPLC said he's been having some trouble putting a good scoring round together since he's been practicing 15 yard drills, makes sense that he would because isn't trying to hold dead middle on a scoring round a much harder task than practicing at 15?


----------



## dk-1

One thing I have done to help my game is shooting the 1/2 size Vegas faces at 12 yards inside my house. I do an average of three games per night like this. Just before we went to Vegas, a buddy and I shot the 1/2 size targets at 20 yards and discovered something huge; it made us really aim the bows! We then shot a round on the X ring only WAF vertical face and scored only the X as 10's. On the 1/2 size target I told myself it was okay to miss because it was such a small target, but I kept every arrow in the gold. On the WAF target I cleaned the first half shooting all X's, then went on to drop 6 points on the second half. On both targets I would have had 300's on a Vegas face, so I shot one more game on the official Vegas face scoring a 299. To put it all together, I learned that I could aim smaller than what I was used to and when I told myself it was okay to miss, I didn't miss. It's all in the mental game from here on out.


----------



## Bobmuley

*I think there's some lessons in there for all of us*

1. Fundamentals before creativity: Coach Wooden believes the teaching of fundamentals, until they are all executed quickly, properly, and without conscious thought, is prerequisite to playing the game. Drills must be created so that all of the fundamentals are taught to the criterion that players execute them automatically.

In Coach Wooden's words: "Drilling created a foundation on which individual initiative and imagination can flourish." *Form and proper setup! I don't think this could be over emphasized. I don't think we need to start by learning to tie our shoes, but the way we stand, grip the bow, grip the release, draw, anchor, and execute HAVE to be imbedded in the subconscious to the point of being as natural as breathing.*

2. Use variety. [At UCLA], although the general skeleton of practice lessons were the same, there were lots of surprises that kept things interesting and fun. Coach Wooden "would devise new [drills] to prevent monotony, although there would be some drills we must do every single day." *I think this is another place where we fall short on most occasions. For the most part we stand there at 20 yards shooting at a little circle. Variety in distance, targets, uphill, downhill and working on specific portions of our aiming and execution help break the monotony. As archers we don't need to learn as many things as most everyother sport. We don't have a strike ball and spare ball for each lane like bowling, we don't have to learn different positions on offense and defense like a lot of sports. We largely have one thing to do, over and over.*

3. Teaching new material. When creating the daily lesson plan, Coach Wooden was careful to install new material in the first half of practice, not the second. There were two reasons for this: Our minds were fresh and not yet worn down by two hours of high-intensity activities, and he could devise activities during the second half of practice for the application of new material. I know I've been guilty of trying new things in the last half of a practice session.*
*
4. Quick transitions. During Coach Wooden's practice sessions, one witnessed lightning-quick transitions from activity to activity. Players sprinted to the next area and took pride in being the first to begin. Transitions were as intense as the activities. No time was wasted. With a little ingenuity, creativity, and organization, classrooms can be morphed from inefficient operations to efficient systems.

5. Increasing complexity. Drills evolved from simple to extremely complex and demanding. Every movement, every action was carefully thought out and planned.

6. Conditioning. Coach Wooden's philosophy is for players and students to improve a little every day and make perfection the goal. His method for improving conditioning included one painful demand -- each player, when reaching the point of exhaustion, was to push himself beyond. When this is done every day, top conditioning will be attained over time.

7. End on a positive note. Coach Wooden always had something interesting, challenging, or fun planned for the last five minutes. *I think most of us do this anyhow...although I've seen a few guys shoot a couple poor arrows and call it a day saying they don't want to enforce bad habits. Why not fix it then and there?*

8. Avoid altering a plan during the lesson. Once the practice started, Coach Wooden never changed it, even though he may have noticed an existing drill that needed more time or thought of a new one he should have included. The proper place for new ideas and improvements was on the back fo the 3 x 5 index card, which he made notations on.*Ever see the guy that started scoring and not going so well and stop scoring?*


I know from some of Wooden's other work that everything mattered to him. He'd have his players practice without a ball. He'd make sure that when shooting drills were performed that the ball racks were placed perfectly to make the most efficient use of time. *He'd make sure that one lesson was learned to perfection before moving on.*

He didn't do short cuts. I know I've tried to...but it only cost me more time in the end.


----------



## ken Johnson

nswarcher said:


> Have you tried a ring instead of a dot on your scope?
> Or try some aiming drills, draw, aim, let down . This will train your brain to think that it's ok to let the dot sit there on the x,
> Forgive me if i am qrong but you are focusing on your dot and not the x? If that is so it is the opposite of how i have been coached, glue your eye to that x because that's where you will naturally bring the dot to, most shots i make have my pin blurry because of the focus but i have found when I'm a little off at the shot the arrow is still going into the 10 as my body corrects the aim


Three cheers for you. 

A ring will help because it allows you to focus on your target with nothing in the way. What else you mention that everyone needs to here, is that if you focus on your target even when your pin is slightly off on the release, if you are stilled focused on the target the arrow will most likely hit center. Also if you have watched a top shooter if the arrow is not in the x on the first shot they may change targets. They want the first arrow hole to be the funnel that sucks the rest of the arrow in. It is something to watch!


----------



## ken Johnson

dk-1 said:


> One thing I have done to help my game is shooting the 1/2 size Vegas faces at 12 yards inside my house. I do an average of three games per night like this. Just before we went to Vegas, a buddy and I shot the 1/2 size targets at 20 yards and discovered something huge; it made us really aim the bows! We then shot a round on the X ring only WAF vertical face and scored only the X as 10's. On the 1/2 size target I told myself it was okay to miss because it was such a small target, but I kept every arrow in the gold. On the WAF target I cleaned the first half shooting all X's, then went on to drop 6 points on the second half. On both targets I would have had 300's on a Vegas face, so I shot one more game on the official Vegas face scoring a 299. To put it all together, I learned that I could aim smaller than what I was used to and when I told myself it was okay to miss, I didn't miss. It's all in the mental game from here on out.


Read Terry Wunderle's book, "How to think and Shoot like a champion". He is the mind coach.


----------



## EPLC

Since my last post I've really been struggling. Historically what I've done at this point in my quest to hold in the middle is to abandon the whole thing and go back to plan A. This time I'm going to stick with it because plan A isn't where I want to be. I discovered something last evening that may be helpful. I discovered that if I focus on just keeping it in the yellow I get a smoother hold.
I've also discovered that my brain is very fussy with sight picture. I still haven't found one that works in various lighting conditions. The sight picture thing is a major deal.


----------



## loujo61

EPLC said:


> Since my last post I've really been struggling. Historically what I've done at this point in my quest to hold in the middle is to abandon the whole thing and go back to plan A. This time I'm going to stick with it because plan A isn't where I want to be. I discovered something last evening that may be helpful. I discovered that if I focus on just keeping it in the yellow I get a smoother hold.
> I've also discovered that my brain is very fussy with sight picture. I still haven't found one that works in various lighting conditions. The sight picture thing is a major deal.


If you have a smooth hold in the yellow and your release is pulling straight back from the center of the target (the X) when the shot breaks the arrow will naturally gravitate to the center. Try moving up to the target until you find the distance where you can smoothly hold on the X, it's all relevant, some people can hold better than others. I think command shooting and pulling and allowing a shot to happen are two different animals.


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> ... I still haven't found one that works in various lighting conditions..l.


Lets just figure it out for one condition at the moment. One step at a time.


----------



## EPLC

I'm in the process of reading "How Champions Think" by DR. Bob Rotella. He worked with LeBron James early in LeBron's professional career on his 3-point shot, which at the time wasn't his greatest skill. DR. Rotella suggested a drill to improve LeBron's 3-point shot that I believe could be easily adapted to an archery drill. I have been searching for a goal based, measurable drill such as this for some time now. 

The suggested drill was that LeBron was to successfully score 200 3-point jump shots and 200 pass and shoot 3-point shots per day. It did not matter how many shots it would take to accomplish the 400 baskets. This could be easily translated to archery, although the numbers would have to be adjusted to fit the game. Instead of 3-pointers, the archery drill would consist of a certain number of X's per day with no limit on the number of shots needed to accomplish this goal. The goal would be to improve one's skill at shooting X's and the measurable component that would shot progress would be the number of shots it takes to get there.

This has some distinct possibilities as the score is now irrelevant. It would force the archer to focus on nothing but shooting an X. Assuming the goal for each day would be 30 Vegas X's the score would always be 300 30X with the only thing changing from day to day would be the number of arrows to get there. It also could conceivably be shot at any distance. I'm going to start this tomorrow to determine what my daily goal should be.


----------



## EPLC

I just had to try this out tonight so I shot a 15 yard round in my cellar. It took me 61 arrows to shoot a 300 30X Vegas round. In my 15 yard round only X's count. Everything else is a zero. I think my 20 yard version will also count 10's until my numbers come down. Nice drill, really makes you focus.


----------



## EPLC

Here's the scoring of my first round. I hit the 30th X on the 61st arrow. I did reasonably well through the first 6 ends and then got sloppy. I hope to improve this going forward. 
I haven't decided what to do at 20 yet. I could drop it to a 150 15X Vegas and just count X's or make it a 300 with X/10 scoring. I'll see how it goes.


----------



## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> I'm in the process of reading "How Champions Think" by DR. Bob Rotella. He worked with LeBron James early in LeBron's professional career on his 3-point shot, which at the time wasn't his greatest skill. DR. Rotella suggested a drill to improve LeBron's 3-point shot that I believe could be easily adapted to an archery drill. I have been searching for a goal based, measurable drill such as this for some time now.
> 
> The suggested drill was that LeBron was to successfully score 200 3-point jump shots and 200 pass and shoot 3-point shots per day. It did not matter how many shots it would take to accomplish the 400 baskets. This could be easily translated to archery, although the numbers would have to be adjusted to fit the game. Instead of 3-pointers, the archery drill would consist of a certain number of X's per day with no limit on the number of shots needed to accomplish this goal. The goal would be to improve one's skill at shooting X's and the measurable component that would shot progress would be the number of shots it takes to get there.
> 
> This has some distinct possibilities as the score is now irrelevant. It would force the archer to focus on nothing but shooting an X. Assuming the goal for each day would be 30 Vegas X's the score would always be 300 30X with the only thing changing from day to day would be the number of arrows to get there. It also could conceivably be shot at any distance. I'm going to start this tomorrow to determine what my daily goal should be.





EPLC said:


> I just had to try this out tonight so I shot a 15 yard round in my cellar. It took me 61 arrows to shoot a 300 30X Vegas round. In my 15 yard round only X's count. Everything else is a zero. I think my 20 yard version will also count 10's until my numbers come down. Nice drill, really makes you focus.


Well, Rotella had a much younger person to work with so the number of shots LeBron put up could have been incredible. To apply this to archery the number of shots would have to be reduced and work within those number of shots and perhaps a time frame applied. Younger and less injured I could shoot all day. I think I did something like Rotella suggested. I would end my practice session with shooting five penny size black dots from 20 yards. I would shoot at each dot until I hit every dot. If I got 3 the first time those 3 were eliminated. So eliminating dots. Sometimes it took a few shots to finish off the last two or the last one. Today, I do something of the same with X rings on 3D centers. I have numbered arrows and shoot from 20 and 25 yards. Arrows that hit are eliminated. With my thumb releases this would go pretty quick. I'm getting better and better with my hinge, but I'm also getting pretty wore down before all arrows are eliminated. Yesterday, wore out, it took forever to get the last arrow in a 1" X ring. I should have left a bigger X ring to shoot at. I can't remember a time I was so tired.


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> I'm in the process of reading "How Champions Think" by DR. Bob Rotella. He worked with LeBron James early in LeBron's professional career on his 3-point shot, which at the time wasn't his greatest skill. DR. Rotella suggested a drill to improve LeBron's 3-point shot that I believe could be easily adapted to an archery drill. I have been searching for a goal based, measurable drill such as this for some time now.
> 
> The suggested drill was that LeBron was to successfully score 200 3-point jump shots and 200 pass and shoot 3-point shots per day. It did not matter how many shots it would take to accomplish the 400 baskets. This could be easily translated to archery, although the numbers would have to be adjusted to fit the game. Instead of 3-pointers, the archery drill would consist of a certain number of X's per day with no limit on the number of shots needed to accomplish this goal. The goal would be to improve one's skill at shooting X's and the measurable component that would shot progress would be the number of shots it takes to get there.
> 
> This has some distinct possibilities as the score is now irrelevant. It would force the archer to focus on nothing but shooting an X. Assuming the goal for each day would be 30 Vegas X's the score would always be 300 30X with the only thing changing from day to day would be the number of arrows to get there. It also could conceivably be shot at any distance. I'm going to start this tomorrow to determine what my daily goal should be.


I like it. 

How did it help your hold?


----------



## EPLC

Bobmuley said:


> I like it.
> 
> How did it help your hold?


It definitely makes you focus


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> It definitely makes you focus


:thumbs_up

Maybe in your over-analysis of yourself you've overlooked that aspect. Sometimes we get caught up in other minutia and forget the important things. 

I think its also like RCR was talking about in Garceau's thread. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4583665&p=1098370570#post1098370570 we need to focus, but realize that it's okay to not be perfect...as long as we keep the misses small.


----------



## Rick!

EPLC said:


> It definitely makes you focus


What type of focus? There are several.


----------



## Bobmuley

^^^^ listen to that weekly...


----------



## EPLC

I shot two rounds of my new practice routine from 20 yards. I feel this routine is a breakthrough as it was definitely a learning experience. My first set goal was to shoot a 300 Vegas with X/10 scoring with anything less than a 10 counting for zero. About the 4th end I discovered that I was thinking more about result than I was about process. The 5th through the 14th end went much better. It took me 50 shots to hit my goal (2nd arrow of the 17th) but like I said, it was a learning experience. I also noticed that I didn't like the bow balance as I had added 1 3/4 Oz to the side bar this morning. At the end of this round I removed the added weight.


----------



## EPLC

After making the weight adjustment the bow felt better. I wanted to shoot another round but my time was limited. I choose to shoot a Vegas 150 half round. Using what I learned on the first game (focus on process) and the better bow balance I hit my goal of 150 with the first arrow of the seventh end. Much improved over the first round where I was only 110 at this point. 

The advantages of this exercise are:

1. It removes the "thinking about score" problem because the score is determined up front.
2. It promotes better concentration on each shot 
3. It can be shot at any distance
4. The goal can be modified to fit the skill level of any shooter.


----------



## dunmoab

Sir,

Tom Lynch here. Are you still making stabilizers?

I lost your number (switched phones....Don't ask) If you could contact me please. I need a set for a kid in my club. Quickly...
email me at [email protected] please and I will hook you and her mother up so she can deal directly. She loves mine(as do I)

Oh by the way, since winning the indoor in 2015. I have set an outdoor national title andd a few state records have fallen using your stuff!!

Cheers Tom


----------



## Bobmuley

X percentage went way up too. 

Maybe its time to quit thinking about so much and focus on killing Xs, as in the little X itself.

And we need to come up with some physical punishment for everything that lands outside the 10...electric shock or something.


----------



## loujo61

EPLC said:


> After making the weight adjustment the bow felt better. I wanted to shoot another round but my time was limited. I choose to shoot a Vegas 150 half round. Using what I learned on the first game (focus on process) and the better bow balance I hit my goal of 150 with the first arrow of the seventh end. Much improved over the first round where I was only 110 at this point.
> 
> The advantages of this exercise are:
> 
> 1. It removes the "thinking about score" problem because the score is determined up front.
> 2. It promotes better concentration on each shot
> 3. It can be shot at any distance
> 4. The goal can be modified to fit the skill level of any shooter.


IMO the drills that they did with LeBron were to condition him and to hone his muscle memory or motor skills to the point that there was very little thinking or concentration involved in making those shots. If I have to concentrate that much to hit an X in competition with all the other distractions (like lighting in your recent case) and the crowd (like at LAS or Vegas) I'm going to loose focus and miss. I set up a new bow (HC) yesterday, first I had to tweak the draw and poundage for comfort, then I started messing with the stabilizers but I couldn't get it just right, so instead of having one 6" rod out the back I put two and bam like magic the bow became user friendly. Now I just point, aim, anchor, click, pull, pow in the middle, very little concentration required. The more stupid simple I can make that bow shoot the better, and the better that bow shoots the easier and less involved my shot process becomes.


----------



## EPLC

Todays 20 yard 300 Vegas was accomplished in 13 1/3 ends for a total of 40 arrows. It took 50 yesterday. I had two friends shooting with me today and there was some discussion about what is really important and what isn't. To somewhat quote cbrunson (becoming a habit), the only two things that matter are: 
(1) holding in the middle
(2) coming up with an execution that doesn't disturb #1.

This got me thinking about my shot process and the fact that I can overthink it during the process. As a result, I've scrapped my shot process in favor of a simple 2 step process that mimics the important stuff. My new shot process is:
(1) "One"
(2) "Two"
The "One" represents putting it in the middle and the "Two" represents keeping it there until the shot breaks. It seemed to help. Reading Lou's post above after the fact further validates what I learned today.


----------



## EPLC

loujo61 said:


> IMO the drills that they did with LeBron were to condition him and to hone his muscle memory or motor skills to the point that there was very little thinking or concentration involved in making those shots. If I have to concentrate that much to hit an X in competition with all the other distractions (like lighting in your recent case) and the crowd (like at LAS or Vegas) I'm going to loose focus and miss. I set up a new bow (HC) yesterday, first I had to tweak the draw and poundage for comfort, then I started messing with the stabilizers but I couldn't get it just right, so instead of having one 6" rod out the back I put two and bam like magic the bow became user friendly. Now I just point, aim, anchor, click, pull, pow in the middle, very little concentration required. The more stupid simple I can make that bow shoot the better, and the better that bow shoots the easier and less involved my shot process becomes.


I believe this drill does exactly what the LeBron drill does. By only having to focus on one arrow, just as LeBron wound be placing focus on one shot, it removes a lot of the noise associated with score and the like. Proper execution, over and over, recognizing errors and correcting them along the way, are the building blocks needed to develop a good mental representation. A good training routine should be challenging, measurable and provide some method of feedback in order to identify errors and make on the fly corrections. I believe this drill meets this criteria.


----------



## EPLC

Last night I shot my league with the intention of using the same thought process I use in the new practice routine. It worked out quite well considering the short time using it. Last night we were shooting the NFAA 300 round. I shot 299 41X which is a vast improvement considering the dismal year I've been having. The 4 was in the 2nd end. 
Although not perfect yet, I was able to use the same thought process as I used in the practice drill. Everything less than an X was considered a zero and "score" became a non issue (for the most part). I can see this routine has great potential as it not only builds the physical aspects of the game, it also refocuses and builds the mental game.
Having the final score predetermined is a tremendous breakthrough. I expect great results going forward.


----------



## loujo61

I shot a few rounds outside today and was focusing on holding the pin in the middle, shot a few rounds with the hinge and it seemed like the more I fought to hold dead nuts the worse I shot, I hit the dot better when I just let it float and pulled through. But, I took the Button out and commanded a pretty good round holding hard on the center. I'm confused, shooting is a complicated thing, I don't get it.


----------



## EPLC

I think you may be confusing over-aiming and holding in the middle. Also, command shooting isn't what I am striving for. A good hold, on the the other hand, promotes a good clean release. 
Holding is a funny thing, the harder you try the harder it can be. Try relaxing more as the tendency to tighten up when trying to hold can make things worse.
I shot another 300 Vegas today, only took 23 ends to do it! I've noticed a connection between my poor holding days and the days after working out at the gym. Today was one of those days.


----------



## cbrunson

I dislike the words "aim hard" as much as I dislike "let it float". I prefer to think of it as aim comfortably. Aiming hard insinuates forcing it to stop moving, which ultimately does just the opposite and it moves more, or you have to punch it quick in the tiny widow. It rarely freezes in the middle when you do that anyway. It's usually off a little one way or another but you've trained your brain to fire when it stops moving, further complicating the process.

It is a matter of eliminating tension in your hands while holding strong with your arms. Put it in the middle and relax your hands. Let the tension out. Execute the shot with soft hands. 

When you get it right, it feels smooth and controlled, and the dot will settle in there nicely.


----------



## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> I dislike the words "aim hard" as much as I dislike "let it float". I prefer to think of it as aim comfortably. Aiming hard insinuates forcing it to stop moving, which ultimately does just the opposite and it moves more, or you have to punch it quick in the tiny widow. It rarely freezes in the middle when you do that anyway. It's usually off a little one way or another but you've trained your brain to fire when it stops moving, further complicating the process.
> 
> It is a matter of eliminating tension in your hands while holding strong with your arms. Put it in the middle and relax your hands. Let the tension out. Execute the shot with soft hands.
> 
> When you get it right, it feels smooth and controlled, and the dot will settle in there nicely.


Wasn't trying to stop the movement I was trying to hold tight on the dots, my bag target has dots that are about the size of a Vegas ten. By "float" I mean I get a relaxed comfortable hold then I increase my pull, I'm pulling an imaginary line from the center of the dot back to my release, the peep, sight housing, and pin just reference that line of tension and if I do it correctly when it all lines up my release fires. I do this with a thumb button too, I wrap my thumb and pull but I do it more aggressive so it is more like a command.


----------



## Kyle7683

way to overcome your limits!


----------



## cbrunson

loujo61 said:


> Wasn't trying to stop the movement I was trying to hold tight on the dots, my bag target has dots that are about the size of a Vegas ten. By "float" I mean I get a relaxed comfortable hold then I increase my pull, I'm pulling an imaginary line from the center of the dot back to my release, the peep, sight housing, and pin just reference that line of tension and if I do it correctly when it all lines up my release fires. I do this with a thumb button too, I wrap my thumb and pull but I do it more aggressive so it is more like a command.


How well has that been working for you? Do you do it correctly most of the time? Half?

Just curious. Not attacking.


----------



## loujo61

cbrunson said:


> How well has that been working for you? Do you do it correctly most of the time? Half?
> 
> Just curious. Not attacking.


Decent but I get glitches, I sometimes loose tension and pop a bad shot, usually low. I do it correctly most of the time but like last year I dropped a nice nickel on a twenty eight yard shot at the third leg of the IBO Triple Crown, I would of tied for third if I 10d that target. I shoot in the nineties Vegas and about forty five+ X's 5 spot Hunter Class. I switched up releases last year in efforts to get rid of those glitches, went from a two finger Longhorn to a four finger Sweet Spot, I tend to pull more consistent with the Sweet Spot. I do have mild tremors but I can usually time my shot in between them and pulling harder with the four finger release helps stabilize the movement from them. I'm trying to find a better way, I'd like to put them all in the X like you.


----------



## EPLC

Today I shot a 300 30X from 15 yards. It took 22 ends to accomplish this. The important thing taken from today is that I learned a few things. Without feedback and personal assessment any training drill is just flinging arrows. I'm good at flinging arrows and not learning anything. I'm working to put an end to this very bad habit.
1. I noticed that my release hand position wasn't consistent. After reaching draw and settling into center (#1) I had to reposition my thumb to the firing position in order to proceed with #2 (execution). This change in release had position caused a breakdown in my hold. After correcting this by positioning my thumb on the firing position side of the button instead of behind it I went on a streak of X's. Although short lived, I learned something.
2. The hold started breaking down again even after the new hand position. I discovered than my bow hand was tightening up as I tried to pull through the shot. This tightening caused my shot to become jumpy and with it came some additional misses. By concentrating on relaxing the bow hand the entire process smoothed out quite a bit. This, combined with what I learned above smoothed things out nicely and I finished the game strong.
It was a successful day.


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> Without feedback and personal assessment any training drill is just flinging arrows. I'm good at flinging arrows and not learning anything. I'm working to put an end to this very bad habit.


Exactly. This is how most of us have reinforced bad habits...because we didn't do the preventative measures up front. 

Good job today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cbrunson

Bobmuley said:


> Exactly. This is how most of us have reinforced bad habits...because we didn't do the preventative measures up front.
> 
> Good job today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


X2. Good job Paul.


----------



## EPLC

I was reminded at our weekend shoot that I have a long way to go before any of this is automatic. The release hand repositioning is still an issue but I think I now have a solution. I'm also dealing with lighting issues. My club has excellent lighting but some of the other local shoots have issues. It's like I need a different sight picture depending on where I shoot. 
More training this morning.


----------



## nochance

EPLC said:


> I was reminded at our weekend shoot that I have a long way to go before any of this is automatic. The release hand repositioning is still an issue but I think I now have a solution. I'm also dealing with lighting issues. My club has excellent lighting but some of the other local shoots have issues. It's like I need a different sight picture depending on where I shoot.
> More training this morning.


This may seem obvious but i carry a couple different size apertures with me in case lighting is different. it paid off for me this weekend. Or is glare a problem?


----------



## Kstigall

EPLC said:


> I was reminded at our weekend shoot that I have a long way to go before any of this is automatic. The release hand repositioning is still an issue but I think I now have a solution. I'm also dealing with lighting issues. My club has excellent lighting but some of the other local shoots have issues. It's like I need a different sight picture depending on where I shoot.
> More training this morning.


One range we shoot at has a bunch of different switches for the range and bale lights. Fortunately two switches cuts off one set of tubes in each of the fixtures so the lighting becomes "perfect". It's perfect in the sense that it's not too good and more closely replicates lighting at other ranges.



nochance said:


> This may seem obvious but i carry a couple different size apertures with me in case lighting is different. it paid off for me this weekend. Or is glare a problem?


Same here............


----------



## EPLC

nochance said:


> This may seem obvious but i carry a couple different size apertures with me in case lighting is different. it paid off for me this weekend. Or is glare a problem?


This particular club has the new LED tubes going both across and length wise with strips on both sides empty. There is nothing to mute these and the glare for me was really messing up my sight picture. I think Ray-Bans would have helped but unfortunately I did not have mine with me. Still, this tends to be an issue for me in various clubs or pro shops. In this particular club I warmed up on a middle lane where the lighting was more even and I was dealing with it ok. During the shoot I shot from the left end position and had the glare coming in from the right. That said; it was the last shoot this year for that particular club so I won't have to deal with it until next season.
This morning I wasn't happy with my hold at all. I went to a 18" back bar with less weight and it just wasn't working out at all. Felt like a broken gyro or two like poles coming together. I'm going to work on my back bar situation.


----------



## EPLC

On 2/27 I started the revised version of my drill, shooting perfect games regardless of the number of arrows it takes. The problem I've encountered with this exercise is the counting of zeros which adds a negative to the mental process. As a result my thinking is shifting once again to score... even though the method of scoring has changed to the number of arrows it takes to achieve the goal. I'm going to eliminate the zero from the drill and only count X/10's until the goal has been reached. I can still keep track of how I'm doing with a time based system but the goal of a perfect game will be the main focus.


----------



## Bobmuley

EPLC said:


> On 2/27 I started the revised version of my drill, shooting perfect games regardless of the number of arrows it takes. The problem I've encountered with this exercise is the counting of zeros which adds a negative to the mental process. As a result my thinking is shifting once again to score... even though the method of scoring has changed to the number of arrows it takes to achieve the goal. I'm going to eliminate the zero from the drill and only count X/10's until the goal has been reached. I can still keep track of how I'm doing with a time based system but the goal of a perfect game will be the main focus.


 Hash marks or arrow holes in the target would work for keeping a "running score".


----------



## EPLC

Bobmuley said:


> Hash marks or arrow holes in the target would work for keeping a "running score".


Yes, that would work but I have this nice little app for keeping track


----------



## EPLC

Removing the arrow count should create more focus on each shot. For 15 yards or less I will score only the baby X, for 20 I'll score X/10. Misses will not be scored or counted and will have no value. 
Yesterday was gym day so I haven't actually started this yet.


----------



## EPLC

I've shot at least one round a day since my last post and am finding this drill very helpful. Due to the feedback I'm getting I've discovered an alignment issue that had creeped back into my setup. Not long ago I'd increased my DL significantly but found I was still not aligned directly behind the arrow on the release side. This was discovered with someone doing a video from behind and above. I had to increase my loop to a ridiculously long 1 1/2" inside measurement to get there. While seemingly strange, it does get me behind the arrow and is very comfortable. I'm currently running 28 3/8" DL with this very long loop. Sunday evening it felt really solid in my basement but I did not shoot yesterday as it was workout day... and today I'm resting from it... and the movement of a ton of snow.
Another issue I'm having is my workout recovery needs. If I shoot the day after workouts I'm not recovered enough to make my best shots. This eats into my "quality" shooting but I still do it. I don't have much choice as there are only so many days in the week. Getting older isn't for sissies.


----------



## dk-1

EPLC, sometimes I think we tend to overthink this whole thing... Lately I've just been keeping it as simple as "PUT IT IN THE MIDDLE AND EXECUTE A CLEAN RELEASE". My float varies from day to day, but my scores really don't. There are little things in the set up to chase better float and a more forgiving shot, but if the arrow hits behind the pin what more could we ask for? Keep it simple...


----------



## cbrunson

An interesting thing about the spots game is that most people have really busy minds, meaning that if you don’t have specific tasks for your thoughts, your mind will find its own things to focus on unintentionally. It happens a lot when you start shooting really well and lose focus on each individual shot. You allow other thoughts into your mind. I like to call those “squirrel!!” moments. 

Although I’ve said many times that you need to keep it as simple as possible, I’m referring specifically to the physical manipulation part of the shot process. I believe you still have to coach yourself through every shot. For me it is as simple as actively thinking instructions based on what my sight picture is telling me.

Example: “It’s moving too much. Tighten up on the back end and relax your bow hand. Okay, there it is, now pull through. Keep pulling, keep pulling……..” At any time during that process, if the dot moves out, I have to reset, or let down. I try to actively have those thoughts like conversations in my mind. Never think thoughts like, “don’t hold low”, or “don’t bow arm it this time.” That’s a sure way to repeat the bad shot you just made on the previous arrow. I’ve done it many times. Tell yourself what TO DO, instead of what NOT to do.

When you start thinking about your score, questioning your bow set up, or the color your wife wants to paint the bedroom ceiling, during the shot process, you will shoot a bad shot. Then you’ll ask yourself what the heck you were thinking about that for, instead of focusing on the shot. It’s because your mind wants to be busy. Give it something specific to do EVERY shot.

There may be some people out there that can shoot very well with a more passive mental approach, but I think most people need to actively participate in the shot process. Think about those other things between shots, but devote that ten seconds from full draw to release to a very specific instruction. It can be very hard to do 30-60 times consecutively without letting one slip.


----------



## cbrunson

_edit- double post_


----------



## Bobmuley

cbrunson said:


> An interesting thing about the spots game is that most people have really busy minds, meaning that if you don’t have specific tasks for your thoughts, your mind will find its own things to focus on unintentionally. It happens a lot when you start shooting really well and lose focus on each individual shot. You allow other thoughts into your mind. I like to call those “squirrel!!” moments.
> 
> Although I’ve said many times that you need to keep it as simple as possible, I’m referring specifically to the physical manipulation part of the shot process. I believe you still have to coach yourself through every shot. For me it is as simple as actively thinking instructions based on what my sight picture is telling me.
> 
> Example: “It’s moving too much. Tighten up on the back end and relax your bow hand. Okay, there it is, now pull through. Keep pulling, keep pulling……..” At any time during that process, if the dot moves out, I have to reset, or let down. I try to actively have those thoughts like conversations in my mind. Never think thoughts like, “don’t hold low”, or “don’t bow arm it this time.” That’s a sure way to repeat the bad shot you just made on the previous arrow. I’ve done it many times. Tell yourself what TO DO, instead of what NOT to do.
> 
> When you start thinking about your score, questioning your bow set up, or the color your wife wants to paint the bedroom ceiling, during the shot process, you will shoot a bad shot. Then you’ll ask yourself what the heck you were thinking about that for, instead of focusing on the shot. It’s because your mind wants to be busy. Give it something specific to do EVERY shot.
> 
> There may be some people out there that can shoot very well with a more passive mental approach, but I think most people need to actively participate in the shot process. Think about those other things between shots, but devote that ten seconds from full draw to release to a very specific instruction. It can be very hard to do 30-60 times consecutively without letting one slip.


You should've double posted. It's worthy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EPLC

I found my shot. It's a good one but I find I can only repeat it for a short before I loose the feel. I was able to string a bunch of these together so I do know the feel and can repeat it. The issue is maintaining it for longer periods. The mistake I've made in the past is that I continue shooting after loosing the feel and end up shooting more bad shots trying to find "it" again. This is counterproductive.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I found my shot. It's a good one but I find I can only repeat it for a short before I loose the feel. I was able to string a bunch of these together so I do know the feel and can repeat it. The issue is maintaining it for longer periods. The mistake I've made in the past is that I continue shooting after loosing the feel and end up shooting more bad shots trying to find "it" again. This is counterproductive.


That's another interesting thing I've discovered with my own shooting. It's a string of progressive (or digressive) variables. Our bodies are naturally lazy. Or rather, we tend to avert stresses and strain naturally to minimize the work our muscles need to perform. What that means is, we get mild pain or fatigue feeling when we repeat motions continually. Our natural reaction is to find a way to reduce or eliminate that feeling by relaxing those muscles even while trying to perform the same work. Our bodies fight what we want them to do.

How do we manage to get that same shot through the warm up, through the higher strength, and then the greater fatigue parts of a game? That's the million dollar question if you ask me. 

The easy answer is longer rest between shots. That does help, but there are still some limits when you bring the clock into your game. The one I've been working on is adaptation. Understanding what is causing the issues you are having when they are happening and then actively trying to remedy them on the fly. It always comes down to the question, "is it holding good?" and if not, "what can I do to get it there?" That may justify stopping midway through a scoring round and experimenting with holding and letting down to try some different things like more or less back tension, faster acquisition, slower execution, or whatever your sight picture is telling you needs to happen, right then, when you are struggling to get that shot you know is possible.

Think about your body and how it naturally deals with physical strain. It's really difficult to focus on a soft, smooth shot when your arms are burning. It's also hard to relax when your strength is greater and little movements translate to big pin movement. You have to learn what your body needs to do in those situations to get your sight picture to look how it is supposed to.


----------



## EPLC

I still need to come up with a happy medium between the workouts and shooting. Yesterday I was just too not recovered to shoot and today I still felt the effect. Still I shot both days, but limited yesterday. I hadn't shot ant scoring rounds in practice for a while now so today I wanted to change things up a bit so I scored some Vegas 300 rounds. I'm beginning to wonder how many variations of a 289 I can shoot consecutively


----------



## loujo61

EPLC said:


> I still need to come up with a happy medium between the workouts and shooting. Yesterday I was just too not recovered to shoot and today I still felt the effect. Still I shot both days, but limited yesterday. I hadn't shot ant scoring rounds in practice for a while now so today I wanted to change things up a bit so I scored some Vegas 300 rounds. I'm beginning to wonder how many variations of a 289 I can shoot consecutively


You gave back 33 points in those three rounds, 26 of those points were on the third arrow... Why?


----------



## EPLC

They were not always on the 3rd arrow. I scored each end high score to low. It would be more meaningful if I scored in the order shot. I think I'll start doing that.


----------



## Casey Hatley

EPLC said:


> "And what is so enamoring about 15 yards?"
> 
> I'm working at 15 yards because I "see" the things you mentioned better. I've shot thousands of arrows at shorter distance but had difficulty identifying the good shots from the bad. The result was a lot of sloppy shots still hit the same hole. That said; with a specific goal of just working on my hold it may provide some benefits but I seem to be comfortable with 15 at this point and intend on sticking with it.
> With the exception of moving in, your entire post makes sense. I am working on letting down when the shot isn't perfect.


Seems to me that your best advice as I’ve seen you have “already tried it” or don’t intended on changing distance. Obviously you missed something. So it’s interesting to me you are 100% sure as to what will NOT work or what you’ve already tried but yet you still are having issues with holding center? I think your best advice is something that is important in life and archery. Forget about what you think you know. I mean it’s obviously not working. Keep a beginners mindset because you’ve gotten some great advice. I think you have parts of your shot process that you think you’ve already “been there done that” and you don’t adtually know your still doing those things wrong. You can’t even seem to focus on the X at 20 yards and your telling people that “I’ve already tried that” and “I’ve tried this and tried that.” I’m sure you’ve “tried everything.” Except what makes you focus in the middle and keep it there while you achieve a good shot. Anyway, just what I’ve seen. I’m not sure what start a thread to hear things you’ve already tried. Hope you figured it out


----------



## Casey Hatley

EPLC said:


> I found my shot. It's a good one but I find I can only repeat it for a short before I loose the feel. I was able to string a bunch of these together so I do know the feel and can repeat it. The issue is maintaining it for longer periods. The mistake I've made in the past is that I continue shooting after loosing the feel and end up shooting more bad shots trying to find "it" again. This is counterproductive.



Wow..... I’ve never heard this. This is me. I’ve lowered my poundage and can shoot for about and hour or two. Right near the end I’ll start missing left and I’ll keep shooting. Trying to “fix it.” Thank you. Thank you!


----------



## Casey Hatley

Casey Hatley said:


> EPLC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found my shot. It's a good one but I find I can only repeat it for a short before I loose the feel. I was able to string a bunch of these together so I do know the feel and can repeat it. The issue is maintaining it for longer periods. The mistake I've made in the past is that I continue shooting after loosing the feel and end up shooting more bad shots trying to find "it" again. This is counterproductive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow..... I’ve never heard this. This is me. I’ve lowered my poundage and can shoot for about and hour or two. Right near the end I’ll start missing left and I’ll keep shooting. Trying to “fix it.” Thank you. Thank you!
Click to expand...

And every time I’ll think to myself “it just doesn’t feel completely stable and solid and smooth as it has been. Why?!?!?! I needed to read this


----------



## *SWITCH

EPLC hey, I understand what you are wanting to do here, i used to try and achieve this also. but holding a small pin or circle perfectly steady on the x as you say consistently is not possible, especially with a magnified lens. Even recurves don't hold perfectly steady on the x on a vegas. what is possible is to hold it steady and close enough to the x to hit it consistently (with enough practice). I like braden gelenthiens latest video on his FB page, he uses a big dot and concentrates more on what his sight picture or float is doing, rather than if he is perfectly centered. your aim doesn't have to be perfectly on the x or perceptively dead still to hit an x or 10. i would also considered using less or no magnification to see if that helps. Oh and adding front bar weight has shown the biggest increase in steadiness for me and helps ensure my arrow hits behind the pin.


----------



## EPLC

I’ve recently gotten back to this exercise. i’ve made a slight modification of the 15 yard drill. Only 30’s matter, and if it’s not a 30 I start the entire game over. This adds pressure to the drill. As a result I shot my first 300 Vegas from 15 yards on 3/1. Yesterday my best was only 6 30’s out of several starts.


----------



## lvetohunt

EPLC said:


> I’ve recently gotten back to this exercise. i’ve made a slight modification of the 15 yard drill. Only 30’s matter, and if it’s not a 30 I start the entire game over. This adds pressure to the drill. As a result I shot my first 300 Vegas from 15 yards on 3/1. Yesterday my best was only 6 30’s out of several starts.


Tag

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ned250

*SWITCH said:


> EPLC hey, I understand what you are wanting to do here, i used to try and achieve this also. but holding a small pin or circle perfectly steady on the x as you say consistently is not possible, especially with a magnified lens. Even recurves don't hold perfectly steady on the x on a vegas. what is possible is to hold it steady and close enough to the x to hit it consistently (with enough practice). I like braden gelenthiens latest video on his FB page, he uses a big dot and concentrates more on what his sight picture or float is doing, rather than if he is perfectly centered. your aim doesn't have to be perfectly on the x or perceptively dead still to hit an x or 10. i would also considered using less or no magnification to see if that helps. Oh and adding front bar weight has shown the biggest increase in steadiness for me and helps ensure my arrow hits behind the pin.


Would you happen to have a link to Braden's video? I didn't see it on his FB page, but it may be burried on one of his videos that didn't look obvious to me.


----------



## Ned250

Its actually in his live feed he had that is pinned on his personal FB page. :thumbs_up


----------



## EPLC

I’ve also introduced a 150 version to my 15 yard drill. Looking to build confidence. Did manage a clean 150 after a couple lesser starts. Last game for the day I dropped a 9 on the last arrow. 
Rules: 
Score consecutive 10’s. If a 9 or less is shot, start game over.


----------



## EPLC

Another clean 150 round tonight.


----------



## OCHO505

Tagged... very interesting thread! I couldn’t stop reading all the pages !!


----------



## OCHO505

I did have a question for you... When the 10's are flowing like the salmon of capastrono what is working mentally and physically? Are you just holding easier or executing better?

And what changes when you are just pounding the 9 ring? Are you to tense or the pin won't sit or is it just execution?


----------



## EPLC

OCHO505 said:


> I did have a question for you... When the 10's are flowing like the salmon of capastrono what is working mentally and physically? Are you just holding easier or executing better?
> 
> And what changes when you are just pounding the 9 ring? Are you to tense or the pin won't sit or is it just execution?


Those are really good questions. I wish I had some equally good answers for them. If I’m honest with myself, I don’t really have a good understanding of the subtle differences between the two. I think if I had to come up with something specific I would say it is focus.


----------



## OCHO505

I have recently found some great things for me... 

The more time I spend setting up or the more patient I am anchoring, lowering my shoulders and so on the faster my shot breaks. I find that if I take the time to set up the pin finds its mark much much faster. 

If I anchor with out this process the complete opposite happens. I anchor and aim with out the patience or slower set up and the shots are just terrible, pin bouncing sight alignment is off and when a shot starts bad in the begging it doesn't get better... 

I talked with Bob Romero here and he tells me all the time the best shooting is done at 5' - 5 yards. He tells me if I cant shoot a 300 at 20 yards how is your brain supposed to know what that looks like? So he says shoot close train your brain to learn what a 300 looks like... start close and work back and if your stuck at say 10' or 10 yards keep working on it. Made a lot of sense to me in regard that your brain sometimes cant do what it hasn't seen in some cases or it can do it better when it's familiar with it.

I personally would stop worrying about the score for a while and start fluid execution, learning a good shot from a bad and getting a strong head game. 

I have made some great shots that hit low or high but were really good shots, and I have hit some inside out X's that were bad shots. No matter what the scores are on the app are; are your breaking good shoots, is your mental game where you want it and is your execution subconscious?

Hope things continue to improve for you!


----------



## EPLC

Yes, definitely setup! I’m currently training with a resistance activated release. If the setup isn’t right the shot doesn’t break cleanly. Discovery is a necessary step in improving the shot. I’ve discovered I have some inconsistencies in my alignment that I’m addressing.


----------



## cbrunson

A lot of good happens when everything is checked off before the pin moves to the X. If you are trying to get things lined up and hold on the x at the same time, you are fighting a battle your brain won’t let you win. 

When I move the dot to the center, there are only two things left to do. Hold it there and execute. I prefer to let the release happen on its own.


----------



## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> A lot of good happens when everything is checked off before the pin moves to the X. If you are trying to get things lined up and hold on the x at the same time, you are fighting a battle your brain won’t let you win.
> 
> When I move the dot to the center, there are only two things left to do. Hold it there and execute. I prefer to let the release happen on its own.


That’s good stuff. I tend to multitask and I should know better. When I go through my shot process step by step things run smoothly.


----------

