# Fastest Recurve limbs



## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Who makes the fastest recurve limbs?


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Borders.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

I think I'm going to hear that a lot.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Border or Dryad if speed is your only criteria


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

If you're looking for a more conventional limb curve, then Win and Win Inno Ex Prime is a really good limb.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

At what DL and GPP? Some have a "speed limit" which others don't. 

Grant


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

Ex Primes. I once did a crude comparison matching Primes with Quattros. I tried to keep as many variables consistent as I could. Using my very non-scientific method I noticed that the Primes gave me noticeably better sight marks. On the flip side, my Primes require a stiffer, and heavier, arrow which negate some of the speed advantage. I still happen to think the Quattros are great limbs and I shoot them at least as much as my Primes.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

grantmac said:


> At what DL and GPP? Some have a "speed limit" which others don't.
> 
> Grant


That's true, some limb makers require a high GPP number to try and stop the limbs blowing. Dryad or the new Uukha are bomb proof though. I think the speed gain of super curve limbs can be negated by the ability to use very light arrows with other limbs.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Long time ago I defined a way to compare limbs to limbs, and later reported it in THA book. It was based to the poundage needed to tune exactly the same arrow. Differencies in year 2000 were going up to 2# already among slower and faster limbs, and they are still at same level nowdays. If you remove "tuning" from the equation, you can measure any kind of speed just playing with brace, while for sure if you go to super curved limbs you can get much more speed in exchange of very critycal tuning. 
One even simpler way to compare speed of limbs is to weight them (phisical weight of the pair of limbs. Lighter limbs will ever be faster. 
Based on my original system, "faster" ILF limbs (in normal range of limbs curve) today are around 2.5# faster than the slower top level limbs in the market.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Borders Hex series, not only they are super curve limbs but they are also extremely light (unlike the uukhas)......I compared ex-primes with HEX6.5 and the HEX were much much faster.....but I still shooting ex-primes


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Speed is not the measure of the efficiency of a pair of limbs. Energy transfer downrange is. (1/2)m[V(sq)].

Vittorio has a point. It has to tune.

Also, using sight marks as a gauge is highly subjective.


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

Does anyone know how the ex-primes compare to the wiawias?


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

I could tune Hex and ex-primes with the same arrows (Hex being 2# lighter) and Hex were 10fps faster if I remember correctly. But as I said I shoot ex-primes (now wiawis) not the Hexes as speed is not that important in target archery IMO.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

bahboric said:


> Does anyone know how the ex-primes compare to the wiawias?


Yes I have both for 2 weeks now and only difference I can see wiawis are bit quieter.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

Oh boy.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks guys. Another question. Did someone suggest the weight (grains) of arrow matters with some of the super limbs, as in, they will blow with to light an arrow?
So a Border HEX7.5 limb may not be able to handle an ACE? The primary place I can see the value in shooting a high performance limb is if a person needs to lower bow poundage. The added speed brings them up to a more competitive level.??


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I think Border have a minimum gpp for their limbs yes. As far as I know Dryad and Uukha don't.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

ArtV said:


> So a Border HEX7.5 limb may not be able to handle an ACE? The primary place I can see the value in shooting a high performance limb is if a person needs to lower bow poundage. The added speed brings them up to a more competitive level.??


No, it'll handle an ACE or even a McKinneyII fine. Here's their weight chart, which doesn't have the 7.5 yet but it won't be much different to the 7 recommendations: http://www.borderbows.com/uploads/Min arrow and bow recommendations Oct 2014.pdf.html

But yes, the fact you can drop a few pounds yet keep arrow energy high is an advantage, for any archer.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

The problem with GPP, is that its grains per POUND. not grains per stored energy.

If you want to decry Hex7 limbs then this is the point to proove it on, by pound. But you would be doing yourself a missfavour IMO.

here is the thinking mans reason why.
at 28" almost ALL ILF limbs store 0.92 foot pounds of energy per pound held. so a 100lbs bow would store 92foot pounds of energy, and a 10lbs bow would store 9.2ft lbs of energy.

Hex7 limbs store close to 1.2. meaning that for the 100lbs held, you would be storeig 120ft/lbs of energy or the 10lbs bow storeing 12ftlbs of energy.

So thats quite a chunk different.
Dry fires are say at 6gpp. and at 6gpp, your asking alot of your bow, but that assumes that your storing less ftlbs than your pulling.

What if your storing more.
then your GPP has to be higher.
if you step outside of GPP, and into real values then shooting a ACE from a lighter poundage bow than your competitors puts your GPP higher, BUT still pushes the same grains down the field at the same speed, your just holding less weight.

or else you can push more weight at the same speed for the same holding weight.

for example, we are aiming for 200fps finger shot at 10gpp at 28".
you could acheive that at 8.5gpp from a conventional limb.

BUT the fun one is, why are X10s regarded as long distance arrows. yet are not 6gpp. they are 8gpp.
why... cos 8gpp is more stable.

getting energy down range is what archery is about.

getting it down range accuratly is the next problem.

we dont have a problem there either.
the hex7 holds the ONLY 6 gold end in an imperial clout, which is 140 yards and a 18" gold. so all 6 arrows in the gold. has been done once with a compound. and once with a recurve. and that recurve was a Hex7.
ontop of that the WA Barebow mens Gold medalist, in Italy was shooting hex6s.

so you cant say they are "unstable" either.


the problem is. with all this extra energy, spine charts are by poundage. and not stored energy. as is GPP. 
the problem is we measure things by poundage, which now doesnt reflect the same stored energy.
all bows dont store 0.92se/pdf, some store 1.2
slow bows store 0.7
compounds store more. 

if you do the maths, then a 100lbs bow would be 10gpps at 1000 grains.
a bow that stores 92ft/lbs would shoot that 1000 grains at say 185fps.
the 120ft/lbs bow would shot that arrow at 200fps.
but the difference in the two bows would be like asking the 0.92se/pdf bow to be holding 130lbs of draw weight to get that same stored energy.
so that would be 1000grns/130lbs = 7.7gpp.
100 grain from two bows that store the same energy one would be 130lbs draw weight at 7.7gpp and the other would be 100lbs at 10gpp...
now, what were you saying about GPP?
i know this is alot of maths. but its key to knowing why GPP is a failed concept.
decrying a design because its limits are "different" without understanding the rational is also limited.
its a bit like saying germain sportscars are rubbish because they are limited by tyre design.

a bow can only take soo much slam before its risky.
the slam is determined by the stored energy and not poundage.
and we discribe bow limits by poundage. so here sits the major problem of spine charts and GPP.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

sid..what would be the energy on my hex5h mk iis and my cxgs?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Sid, do you deliver to Singapore? I've been thinking of trying out a flatter DFCurve, and it looks like I'll be having some dough rolling in sometime July.....


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## jeeperb (Jan 9, 2004)

TMD

FYI i just recently ordered a set of hex limbs from Border and Im in Hong Kong, Limbs are just about done and had a nice chat with Sid on skype, im greatly looking forward to getting them and will post about my findings so Pretty sure singapore would be no problem for them

B


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jmvargas. Hank has lots of data. Including smoothness graphs. If you want third party work. He has it. But the cx limbs are pritty conventional. With 0.92. While the hex5s are a little higher with 0.96.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

theminoritydude said:


> Sid, do you deliver to Singapore? I've been thinking of trying out a flatter DFCurve, and it looks like I'll be having some dough rolling in sometime July.....


We have bows in China. Which is where we thought we would have trouble... but thats not the case.
Singapore is fine. We have limbs in Singapore too. No problems


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

I have no problem delivering my product anyplace in China. Cedar Ridge LeatherWorks


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the great replies. Very informational Sid. Thanks for jumping in.
Art


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Thanks Sid.

One of the things I love about your website is that you provide real information about your products. Unlike your competitors can't back up their products with hard data.

Pete


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Thanks Sid.
> 
> One of the things I love about your website is that you provide real information about your products. Unlike your competitors can't back up their products with hard data.
> 
> Pete


Never mind, enjoy the Koolaide I edited but shouldn't have.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Thanks Sid.
> 
> One of the things I love about your website is that you provide real information about your products. Unlike your competitors can't back up their products with hard data.
> 
> Pete


want a pair? yours cheap.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

grantmac said:


> want a pair? Yours cheap.


lol.....


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Yep, all you can do is rely on that good honest, unbiased, independent test data [emoji56][emoji56]


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm happy to sacrifice a few fps for extra shot stability and limb longevity, like everything in Archery you seem to need to strike a balance. 

Everybody talks about how fast their setup is but when people push both speed and arrow weight something has to give (normally the limbs) at some point in time, for my Barebow it's 7.68gpp (315g 40# OTF) is fairly light and it gives my 60y point of for IFAA 3D, they're heavier arrows than a lot of setups I've seen and read about. The ACE's I've tried are only 281g makes me kinda nervous when I shoot them


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> BUT the fun one is, why are X10s regarded as long distance arrows. yet are not 6gpp. they are 8gpp.
> why... cos 8gpp is more stable.
> 
> getting energy down range is what archery is about.
> ...


If you read some of the threads a fair amount of rec shooters are shooting ACE's because they just cannot reach 90m with X10's, because of draw and arrow weight.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

steve morley said:


> If you read some of the threads a fair amount of rec shooters are shooting ACE's because they just cannot reach 90m with X10's, because of draw and arrow weight.


Which is why shafts like VAP and X impact are popular also. The likes of Brady etc, shooting 54# are ok, but guys shooting mid 30's do struggle with heavy shafts.


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## hotsauce81 (Apr 9, 2013)

Tony Stark. He makes the fastest anything!


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

But Superman is faster....and heavier.

Big John is right...after recovering from a shoulder issue I had to lower poundage many pounds...I needed to shoot pencil leads for awhile. kinetic energy only really matters in hunting arrows. Targets shooting is different.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

rsarns said:


> Never mind, enjoy the Koolaide I edited but shouldn't have.


I liked your original comment


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

steve morley said:


> If you read some of the threads a fair amount of rec shooters are shooting ACE's because they just cannot reach 90m with X10's, because of draw and arrow weight.


Oh most of these folks could have reached their desired distances with X10, but the pride of a fully extended sight bar prevents them from doing the necessary.

And if they did the necessary, and if they quantified the energies, there is no doubt in my mind, which shaft delivers more energy.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Which is why shafts like VAP and X impact are popular also. The likes of Brady etc, shooting 54# are ok, but guys shooting mid 30's do struggle with heavy shafts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


hence the high energy, meaning low poundage, still shooting heavy arrows... imagine shooting 40lbs and hitting Bradys sight marks with Bradys arrows, without the poundage... thats the concept.
you dont need to go as light on the arrow spec, to reach good sight marks.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> you dont need to go as light on the arrow spec, to reach good sight marks.


But you would need to spend a lot of money to achieve this, to pay for a set of X10's and Hex's may be way out of budget for a lot of Archers, so light arrows and conventional limb profile may be the only option for a lot of people.

My sub 28" draw I never saw any speed increase with the Hex6's over my conventional CV and K7 limbs, obviously you get the benefit of smoother draw. Probably why I never got caught up in the speed craze and focused more on a well tuned, stable setup


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

I believe I got a nice speed increase over KStorms when I switched to Hex6.5. I didn't shoot but a couple sessions before switching to indoor, but when I 1st received the Borders all I did was swap limbs and my sight mark moved up about 1/2"-5/8". That is nice when you're working with 28#otf and 27.5"DL. I've also have had none of the set-up issues others have struggled with. No odd vibrations, low noise. It has a nice quiet, sold thunk to it that others have commented on. I't also doesn't seem to be sensitive to set-up. I've been playing around with it and the bow doesn't change much and I've not seen any weird or unexpected results.

Paul


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I would check the new Dryad target limbs, word is they will outperform everything.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Just a reminder of the tests run by Professor Lieu, whose preliminary findings were posted here:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1653392&p=1063033549#post1063033549

tl;dr: There's a huge performance difference between conventional and low-mass super recurves, and it's not all that hard to measure it. If you don't like the feel, then fine, but personally I'll take a few pounds less for the same energy, and a smoother transition through the clicker.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

John_K said:


> Just a reminder of the tests run by Professor Lieu, whose preliminary findings were posted here:
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1653392&p=1063033549#post1063033549
> 
> tl;dr: There's a huge performance difference between conventional and low-mass super recurves, and it's not all that hard to measure it. If you don't like the feel, then fine, but personally I'll take a few pounds less for the same energy, and a smoother transition through the clicker.


Same draw weight (around 38 lbs), McKinney II arrows, Hoyt 990 TX = 194 ft/sec, Border HEX 6H = 212 ft/sec. I've since acquired a set of HEX 6.5H, which clocked 218 ft/sec with the same arrows and same draw weight. The arrow weight was right at the minimum recommended by Border, so I was really trying to push those limbs to their limit. I've also dry-fired those limbs twice, once due to a cracked nock, and once due to stupidity. In the case of the broken nock, both limbs disengaged from the riser and flew around 10 ft forward. I just dusted the limbs off, put them back into the riser, and everything seemed to be normal. Robustness of the limbs was impressive. I'm sure that Sid would cry if he knew how I was mistreating his product. I've now moved to heavier arrows (ACG's) to see if I can get improved accuracy at longer distances.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

rsarns said:


> Never mind, enjoy the Koolaide I edited but shouldn't have.











I couldn't resist. Sorry

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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Demmer said:


> I couldn't resist. Sorry
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk





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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Demmer,

How do you not have that on a tee shirt yet?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> I couldn't resist. Sorry
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Is it too late to get T-Shirts made for Vegas?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I might be able too. I'll have to check that out. 

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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

On the front or back of the shirt?

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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> On the front or back of the shirt?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I vote front....


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I want one 


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Border! Border! Border! :wink: :thumbs_up

Ray


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

Fedora 560 HP LIMBS ,FOR A WOOD AND GLASS ARE FAST. EXAMPLE I SHOOT A 38 POUND HP RECURVE A 500 GRAIN ARROW GOES THROUGH THE CHRNO AT 172FPS 327 GRAIN AT 214 FPS 7 INCH BRACE HEIGHT


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## hcorrigall (Apr 1, 2009)

We have bows in China. Which is where we thought we would have trouble... but thats not the case.
Singapore is fine. We have limbs in Singapore too. No problems
BUT seems that you have problems with Border limbs every other place in the world? Read on Facebook and bow forums???


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I have personally seen two pairs of Border limbs delaminate in the last two weeks. Personally, I am not a fan of super recurves - they are less stable and prone to failure. Much like driving a Lamborghini, expensive and lots of fun on a raceway, but not practical for daily long-term use. I am also seeing an increasing number of elite archers moving away from the extreme profiles (like Uukha Xcurve, hence their new high-end non-Xcurve limbs) and going to conventional limbs like WIAWIS.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Just my two cents worth but I am now shooting the Trad Tech limbs from Lancaster made by W&W. They are smooth, fast, and more importantly, I have had no problems with them. Add to that reasonable pricing and you have a product that gives you piece of mind and is easier on the wallet.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

itbeso said:


> Just my two cents worth but I am now shooting the Trad Tech limbs from Lancaster made by W&W. They are smooth, fast, and more importantly, I have had no problems with them. Add to that reasonable pricing and you have a product that gives you piece of mind and is easier on the wallet.


Second bump for the TT limbs. Either the older Samick models, or the new WW. They are both great limbs. Very fast and stable. 


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

itbeso said:


> more importantly, I have had no problems with them.


Learnt my lesson consistency and reliability have become far more important than speed these days. 

What's the point of the fastest limb on the market if none of them lasted more than 12 months, when thinking in the back of your head they could fail at the most critical moment in a big tourney, made it so not worth it.


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## serekmt (Nov 20, 2016)

What about MK Veracity i think they are quite fast. Faster then win win one.


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## assybish (Oct 20, 2017)

KG archery NX 55 limbs nano carbon wood core


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## heuerlover (Jun 17, 2017)

serekmt said:


> What about MK Veracity i think they are quite fast. Faster then win win one.


I have the Veracity in 36" medium and the older Hex 6 H in 36" medium.
Using the same arrow (28.5") the vera clocked at 203fps and the Border at 218fps
nearly 37lbs on fingers, arrow was 236 grains.


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## zskoszorus (Sep 7, 2017)

Stephen Morley said:


> Learnt my lesson consistency and reliability have become far more important than speed these days.
> 
> What's the point of the fastest limb on the market if none of them lasted more than 12 months, when thinking in the back of your head they could fail at the most critical moment in a big tourney, made it so not worth it.


I agree with it!

Tapatalkkal küldve az én SM-J510FN eszközömről


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