# Casey Kaufhold and her Nano SST's



## AlpNov (Aug 2, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> Unbelievable. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a 13 year-old girl shooting 584/586, and with arrows that a lot of parents wouldn't bother to buy their child.
> 
> https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...lt-National-Record-with-Olympic-Bow-and-Arrow
> 
> ...


Watching her shoot her way up to 2nd at Lancaster was awesome.

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Unbelievable. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a 13 year-old girl shooting 584/586, and with arrows that a lot of parents wouldn't bother to buy their child.
> 
> ....


That is just amazing, but can you elaborate about the arrows? Why would a lot of parents wouldn't bother to buy their child? Sorry I am not well-versed in arrows.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Osmanthus said:


> That is just amazing, but can you elaborate about the arrows? Why would a lot of parents wouldn't bother to buy their child? Sorry I am not well-versed in arrows.


Nano SST's are overlooked by a lot of people. They were built to compete vs. the A/C/E (which is in itself a too often overlooked arrow) but these days it seems people have more money than sense, and they just go straight to X10's, even for some of the youngest JOAD kids - which is a total mistake. 

So my point was that if Nano SST's are good enough to set the new indoor women's record - when the likes of Jenny, Khatuna, Miranda, Makenzie and others have not been able to do better with ANY other arrow - that should once and for all answer any question as to whether the SST's are capable of world class scores. They are. I have known this for some time now and my daughter shot them very successfully for years. I was not at all surprised when Rob chose them for Casey to try and then she decided they were her most competitive arrow. 

Too many folks in USArchery are just glassy-eyed about Easton products and won't even consider anything else. Don't get me wrong - Easton arrows are fantastic arrows - but to just discount the offerings by Carbon Express, Victory and several other manufacturers these days is a big mistake. The arrow gap isn't what it used to be and folks need to catch up.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

John, Thank you for a very logical explanation for this very good product. I am more impressed everyday by quality of the affordable options offered by suppliers like Carbon Express, Victory and Carbon Tech.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Switched from the NPX to the x10s for 2 years now and while I really do like the x10s, I found that I still consistently shoot better scores at 90m with the lighter NPX. (I live in Cali so all the state outdoor tournaments shoot 90m D: ) 

I might go back to them if I find some deals in the spine and length I need.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Nano SST's are overlooked by a lot of people. They were built to compete vs. the A/C/E (which is in itself a too often overlooked arrow) but these days it seems people have more money than sense, and they just go straight to X10's, even for some of the youngest JOAD kids - which is a total mistake.
> 
> So my point was that if Nano SST's are good enough to set the new indoor women's record - when the likes of Jenny, Khatuna, Miranda, Makenzie and others have not been able to do better with ANY other arrow - that should once and for all answer any question as to whether the SST's are capable of world class scores. They are. I have known this for some time now and my daughter shot them very successfully for years. I was not at all surprised when Rob chose them for Casey to try and then she decided they were her most competitive arrow.
> 
> Too many folks in USArchery are just glassy-eyed about Easton products and won't even consider anything else. Don't get me wrong - Easton arrows are fantastic arrows - but to just discount the offerings by Carbon Express, Victory and several other manufacturers these days is a big mistake. The arrow gap isn't what it used to be and folks need to catch up.


Thank you so much for the explanation!


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## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

Tying this to your other thread.... I wonder if she is sponsored?????? ;-)


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

That is an extremely impressive score, specially comparing to last year. Seems she was averaging 625's outdoors, but this score is significantly higher level than that. Should be an interesting summer season for Casey.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

And did it shooting at least 35.75 off the fingers. At 13 years old, she is on a mission. And i have no doubt she will reach her goals.

From May 2017 post by her dad...



> Her current setup is a Left Hand Hoyt Faktor 25" with short 38 lb. limbs holding 35.75 on her fingers. 28" Carbon Express Nano Extreme (tri-spine) Arrows in 800 spine with Tungsten Points, 40mm XS Wing vanes and Beiter OutNocks. Axcel Achieve Recurve Sight with 1/2 open ring aperture, Shibuya Rest, Beiter Plunger/Clicker, Bernie's Wind Dragon (.500) stabilizers with a Shibuya V-Bar.



Chris


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

rat4go said:


> Tying this to your other thread.... I wonder if she is sponsored?????? ;-)


Yeah, by the parents. Pops owns LAS so she can shoot any arrow on inventory I imagine. That said, SSTs are great as are victory VAPs and Carbon Tech.


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## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

tunedlow said:


> Yeah, by the parents. Pops owns LAS so she can shoot any arrow on inventory I imagine. That said, SSTs are great as are victory VAPs and Carbon Tech.


Aware of the LAS connection. That's what the ;-) was for.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

She is really impressive. I hope she is able to stick it out for the long haul, and bring home some golds! 


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

rat4go said:


> Aware of the LAS connection. That's what the ;-) was for.


good question...i would like to know as well..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tunedlow said:


> Yeah, by the parents. Pops owns LAS so *she can shoot any arrow on inventory I imagine.* That said, SSTs are great as are victory VAPs and Carbon Tech.


Partly my point - no to take anything at all away from her incredible performance (still trying to get my head around what she just did, as I'm sure she is). She can shoot literally ANY arrow she wants or needs, but she shot the one that worked best for her particular setup, regardless of brand. I just hope that opens some people's eyes is all.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

still...it would really be cool if Nano does sponsor her inspite of all the benefits she gets from LAS..

not that she needs it though..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> still...it would really be cool if Nano does sponsor her inspite of all the benefits she gets from LAS..
> 
> not that she needs it though..


CX doesn't really "sponsor" recurve shooters. They just don't have the budget that Easton has (Maybe in part because of Easton's many more profitable non-archery related products?) to sponsor archers who use their arrows. I think at best free arrows is all a recurve shooter could expect from CX although there could always be exceptions. 

I started shooting CX Nano's because they worked better for me than X10's and A/C/E's. I went on to shoot all my personal best scores, at the age of 42, using CX arrows and I wasn't training nearly as much at 42 as I was at 34. They were just easier for me to score with for whatever reason.

Sounds to me after hearing Rob mention them at the Lancaster shoot, that Casey had the same experience with her SST's - that they just scored better that the other arrows she tried. I'm sure she tried a few and is happy with her choice. 

Folks should feel free to try anything and everything they can to help them shoot better scores. A few years ago, I told my CX rep that my wife and many of my students were using Victory VAP's because they were affordable and very competitive arrows. I told him straight up that when CX made an arrow that could beat the VAP in price and performance, I'd recommend it instead. And this is while being a "sponsored" CX shooter. I don't really care. The truth is the truth. 

The name brand following that I see in our sport is really unfortunate. Reminds me of voting straight party even when there may be a better candidate under a different label.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

*Casey's Training and Setup*

Hi John, Chris, JM and others;
On behalf of Casey, thank you for your interest and support of her efforts. She continues to amaze me with how truly dedicated, competitive and coachable she is becoming as a serious archer at just 13.(tomorrow she turns 14). She shoots right after school for 2-2.5 hours before we get home from work, joins us for our family dinner and then does any homework needed before going back to shooting again for another 2-3 hours. She also does cardio and calistenic or static bodyweight exercises and stretches from her gymnastics days for conditioning. She has lifted weights, but tends to overdo it and get sore. Her best 18m(40cm vertical) practice score indoors is 297 half and 591/600 total. She shoots a lot of blank bale along with other drills like shooting at a vertical tape line, target face turned backwards to plain white, a smaller target face than normal, etc. to keep her practice purposeful and engaging. We also do a great deal of A/B testing of gear setups(vanes, point weight, nocks, stabilizers), brace heights, limb preset(weight), plunger settings, etc. while she is shooting hundreds of arrows a day... Her shot count outdoors will increase to 3-500 arrows daily during the summer when she's out of school. We normally shoot up to 12 arrow ends and plot arrows to always identify her "A" team of 6-8 arrows that seem to prefer landing in the 10 ring. 

Casey will begin her 2018 outdoor season shooting 70 meters as a Senior(adult) in the Womens' division with her friend, MacKenzie Brown and others. Her goal is to qualify for the World Cup Team for 2019 providing valuable international experience in addition to possibly the World Field Team(Italy) and Pan Am Games(Lima, Peru). She is determined to make a run for the 2020 Olympic Games in Tokyo and beyond where she has her sights set on successfully competing with Koreans and other top female archers from around the world. She is not officially sponsored, but has recently received some gear at no charge after we bought the first or second set of limbs, arrows and sights that she's using. Because of all the arrows she shoots, we've also assisted in testing and giving detailed feedback on some gear prototypes prior to production. We are blessed to be able to provide a place for Casey to conveniently practice 70 meters in the backyard and an indoor range right next door in the shop during winter, etc.

Casey is an extremely social, active and funny teen who enjoys her many friends in archery. Any spare moments are spent researching or doing mental training and visualization or looking up inspirational and positive sayings to add to the hundreds she already has memorized or posted in her room or on her phone. She competes in archery like she did in gymnastics where each shot is a "performance" to feel and execute a perfect or at least great shot. We constantly work on Rhythm and Timing, both in the shot and the entire process. Of the two minutes allowed, she normally shoots all three arrows in 40-45 seconds. She has begun to listen to music in earbuds quite often between ends, especially if she shot a rough arrow or end to help her refocus on her shot process.

Her indoor rig for this season is a Left Hand Hoyt Faktor 25" with short 40# Formula X-Tour Bamboo limbs holding 38 lbs. on her fingers, 29" Carbon Express Nano SST (tri-spine) Arrows in 750 spine with Stainless SST 110gr. Points, 70mm XS Wing vanes and Beiter Pin Nocks. Axcel Achieve Recurve Sight with home-made 1/2" open ring aperture, Shibuya Rest, Beiter Plunger, Pinnacle Slicker Clicker mount with Beiter Clicker, Bernie's Wind Dragon Plus (.500) stabilizers with a Shibuya V-Bar on a 3" extension. She's running 7 oz. on each 12" side rod and 6 ounces on a 28" front Wind Dragon rod. 
For outdoors, she plans to go up to 42 lb limbs, holding 40-41 lbs. (She is 5'7"+ and VERY strong). We will try both Carbon Express Nano Pro X-Treme Recurve and Nano SST Arrows, likely in 700 spine with 100-120 grain points, 50mm XS Wing vanes and Beiter OutNocks. Looking to add Bernie's (tiny, yet stiff) Wind Dragon .450 Plus stabilizers with tungsten weights to give her an edge in the wind.

I hope that this has been helpful and informative.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Rob... your daughter just made me feel weak'er and old'er ...... I was just feeling really good about myself doing 2.5 hour practice outside with 33lb OTF BB today without needing Blue Emu and a Aleve  

But it is great to hear a young person today so dedicated to anything positive and especially recurve archery! She surely is making the archery community proud to have her represent youth in archery as well as her father and family. Great going Rob!!!


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I think Rob's post could become the definitive answer to parents, whose kids practice for 30 min 1-2 times a week, when they ask why their kid isn't competitive.

Awesome insight. Thanks

Cheers
Erik


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Bob, It's the "instant gratification" mentality most of our civilization has today......... That mentality just will not net positive results in many activities with OLY Archery being one such activity. Hard to convince people that perfect practice makes perfect and no amount of money spent will change this prerequisite for success. Rob has done well to instill in his daughter a spirit of dedication and a work ethic to adhere to to achieve her goals. This will carry over to everything she does in and outside of archery. :thumbs_up :thumbs_up to them both


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

Hi Erik;
We usually see a gradual journey for archers of all ages as they begin to see improvement and success in their shooting. Many of the JOAD kids (including Conner and Casey) begin by enjoying the weekly or twice-weekly JOAD practices and occasional tournaments without a large commitment to time, effort, gear and dedication to archery. For many, that is where archery "fits" for them and that's great. For the few that really want to succeed at a high level, we recommend that they set up a target at home for at least blank-bale practice so that the archer can shoot almost daily, even if it's only 30 minutes of blank-baling to work on form, shot-feel, rhythm, timing, etc. We've also seen that the archers who commit to making Archery "their" sport and make it a lifestyle are the one's who truly excel. The beauty of our sport is that it can be as challenging as the recreational or competitive archer wants it to be.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rob, the older Casey gets the more she reminds me of my own daughter Allison. Always that bright smile on her face, and doing things for the joy of it. Eventually, Allison chose music, swimming and playing music for her church youth programs, but her days shooting archery were very fulfilling to her. 

We are both truly blessed fathers. It's a wonderful feeling. I know you cherish these years with her the way I have mine with my daughter. Allison graduates from High School this year, and will be off to college in the fall. This dad might need a few boxes of Kleenex for that day.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

I'm not looking forward to that feeling John...  I'm happy that she still wants the ol' man around. She is very grateful for the support that she has including from coaches Dick Tone, Heather Pfeil and others who have been so supportive of her.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Rob..fantastic training and practice regimen for Casey!

i have followed her career ever since i found out she was shooting seriously and i look forward to seeing more of her achievements in the future..

i also plan to be in Tokyo for the 2020 Olympics and it would be wonderful to see her there competing for the USA!


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## Ds22030 (Jan 18, 2018)

Rob, thank you for sharing about Casey's dedication and commitment. It is truely inspiring.
Daniel


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

BTW i believe her training regimen is as close to the way the Koreans do it but with the big difference that she has her parent's full support all the way vs the government doing it for the Koreans.. 

...doing it also near to her home environment is a big plus and i'm really excited for the future of this young lady and i wish her all the best in the future..


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## Farfletched (Mar 6, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Her indoor rig for this season is a Left Hand Hoyt Faktor 25" with short 40# Formula X-Tour Bamboo limbs holding 38 lbs. on her fingers, 29" Carbon Express Nano SST (tri-spine) Arrows in 750 spine with Stainless SST 110gr. Points, 70mm XS Wing vanes and Beiter Pin Nocks. Axcel Achieve Recurve Sight with home-made 1/2" open ring aperture, Shibuya Rest, Beiter Plunger, Pinnacle Slicker Clicker mount with Beiter Clicker, Bernie's Wind Dragon Plus (.500) stabilizers with a Shibuya V-Bar on a 3" extension. She's running 7 oz. on each 12" side rod and 6 ounces on a 28" front Wind Dragon rod.
> For outdoors, she plans to go up to 42 lb limbs, holding 40-41 lbs. (She is 5'7"+ and VERY strong). We will try both Carbon Express Nano Pro X-Treme Recurve and Nano SST Arrows, likely in 700 spine with 100-120 grain points, 50mm XS Wing vanes and Beiter OutNocks. Looking to add Bernie's (tiny, yet stiff) Wind Dragon .450 Plus stabilizers with tungsten weights to give her an edge in the wind.
> 
> I hope that this has been helpful and informative.


As the parent of a budding young recurve archer I read this post with a great deal of admiration. Its great to see someone so young with clear goals and the willingness to put in the hard work to achieve them! Thank you very much for sharing

I also was very interested in the equipment list, particularly the arrow spine choice. We were just in the process of ordering some sst’s, but was surprised at the spine Kasey is using and hoped you might share why you went down this path. According to Carbon Express spine chart a 29” arrow at 38# OTF indicates a spine of 600. Kaseys arrows are fully 3 spines softer than the arrow chart? Made me stop and think, especially when she also has short limbs for which i would normally guess more aggressive/stiffer spined arrows? 

Appreciate any insights, and congratulations to Kasey!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have to say, I suppose I cringed a little bit when I read Rob's description of Casey's training regimen. Now, before you get the wrong idea, allow me to explain why I say that.

Casey is an exceptional young lady with an exceptional example and exceptional work ethic. In other words, like it or not - she is the exception to the norm. So if any parent out there is looking to use her as an example to their own child, they may want to think again. 

Too often, I see JOAD parents who look at an exceptional example like Casey, and turn to their own child and say "see, this is what you need to do..." meaning well of course. But that seemingly innocent statement can have such a negative impact on a kid, by being compared to someone else who is NOT them. Believe me, if a kid is tuned in to this sport, they know darn good and well by now who Casey is, and what she has accomplished already. Or, they will find it out on their own. You don't have to point it out to them.

I'm fortunate to know a number of elite archers, including some kids who train like elite archers. The one thing that I have found to be universally true is that every elite archer has an INNER drive that sustains them, and that nobody else "creates" for them. They create it themselves. Those archers WANT to train. They don't have to be reminded to train. Those archers are dragging their parents to practice, not the other way around. 

The best a parent can do is to help introduce them to the sport, support their interest (at whatever level that is) and not turn it into yet another "chore" the kid has to do like homework, dishes and laundry. 

I would bet my next paycheck that Casey is reminding Rob when it's time for her to shoot, not the other way around. People like her have serious personal goals they fully intend to achieve. Personal goals they themselves came up with. 

So if your child has that kind of self-motivation and work ethic, then good for them (notice I didn't say good for you). If they don't, that's fine too. This sport can and should be enjoyed in a lot of ways. But in over 15 years of coaching JOAD archers at every level, I have yet to see an elite archer who was created by their parents. Some come close, but they never make it all the way by being pushed. The kid has to do the pulling to get to the top or it will never work. 

Just an observation from a has-been archer, JOAD coach and parent of JOAD archers.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

Not to derail the thread too much with equipment talk, but I can't find any mention online of the "Pinnacle Slicker Clicker mount". I've been meaning to experiment with what I guess would be called a clicker mount, but I can't find any info on this product at all. Anyone here know what this is?


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

Hi PregnantGuppy;
The Slicker Clicker mount was designed by my life-long friend and brilliant engineer, Tom Stevenson of Oklahoma. It's a clicker plate that mounts on any dovetail sight extension bar that accepts a Beiter Clicker or any 6-32 blade clicker. It is easy and very precise to adjust, it is much, much better than a wire clicker which is very slow and has tons of play. The Slicker Clicker will be available for $29.99 including the Beiter Clicker in just a few weeks this spring... 

John; 
I agree 100% that Casey is a very rare exception to what any parent could expect. Our 16 year old son, Conner is an excellent archer who has a better shot "feel" than Casey does, but he has always had varied interests including basketball, baseball, fishing, hunting, etc.
Casey has almost always had her "one" thing, it was gymnastics as a little girl and now it's obviously archery. She pours herself into her one thing completely whereas Conner enjoys shooting his bow and competing, but not to the extreme level that Casey does. 

(From my post #22 on this thread) We usually see a gradual journey for archers of all ages as they begin to see improvement and success in their shooting. Many of the JOAD kids (including Conner and Casey) begin by enjoying the weekly or twice-weekly JOAD practices and occasional tournaments without a large commitment to time, effort, gear and dedication to archery. For many, that is where archery "fits" for them and that's great. For the few that really want to succeed at a high level, we recommend that they set up a target at home for at least blank-bale practice so that the archer can shoot almost daily, even if it's only 30 minutes of blank-baling to work on form, shot-feel, rhythm, timing, etc. We've also seen that the archers who commit to making Archery "their" sport and make it a lifestyle are the one's who truly excel. The beauty of our sport is that it can be as challenging as the recreational or competitive archer wants it to be.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

Awesome, I've been wanting to see a mass-manufactured option like that for a while. Thanks for the quick reply. And great job raising some wonderful kids; it would be great if everyone could have such support for their goals.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> For the few that really want to succeed at a high level, we recommend that they set up a target at home for at least blank-bale practice so that the archer can shoot almost daily, even if it's only 30 minutes of blank-baling to work on form, shot-feel, rhythm, timing, etc. We've also seen that the archers who commit to making Archery "their" sport and make it a lifestyle are the one's who truly excel. The beauty of our sport is that it can be as challenging as the recreational or competitive archer wants it to be.


Not by coincidence, Rob and I see this exactly the same way - surely a byproduct of being around so many youth archers over the years, being parents of youth archers and archers ourselves. The "at-home" bale is very important. And how that child responds to/uses that at-home bale is equally important. For any parent of an archer, that really is a sign they should pay attention to. If they find their child will go out and practice on their own without any reminder, then the child is self-motivated and has performance-related goals whether they have expressed them or not. If they set up the bale at home and their child only infrequently uses it, then perhaps they are in the sport more for social reasons - which of course if just fine. If the only time their child picks up their gear is on JOAD night, then congratulations. You have a normal kid. LOL

My daughter Allison is a lot like Rob's son. A natural ability with the bow, and certainly able to compete at a high level if she chose to, but interested in a lot of activities outside of archery as well. She grew up with at least one bale in the yard (usually two or three) and a bow always set up. I never once told her or reminded her to practice and she rarely shot her bow outside of JOAD. Every now and then she would ask me to string her bow so she could shoot in the yard, but I can probably count on both hands the number of times that happened. One thing I always refused to do was tell my kids they needed to practice. Instead, I encouraged them to try a lot of things and figured one of them would be so appealing to the child they would want to spend their time with it on their own. For her, that was music.

Kids have so much social pressure on them these days. My generation never had to deal with five kids of social media constantly comparing us to someone else, or broadcasting the highlights of people's lives. We need to remember that.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

PregnantGuppy said:


> Not to derail the thread too much with equipment talk, but I can't find any mention online of the "Pinnacle Slicker Clicker mount". I've been meaning to experiment with what I guess would be called a clicker mount, but I can't find any info on this product at all. Anyone here know what this is?


AAE is also selling something similar available on their website. I look forward to checking out the slicker clicker -I've been looking at getting something like it for my sister who is ready to try on a clicker.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

Yes, I made the mistake of sharing Tom's idea by sending AAE one of the Clickers that I made and they sat on it for over a year, then came out with it recently claiming that it was their idea. At $29.99, the Slicker Clicker is $10 less and includes a genuine, german-made $15 Beiter Clicker, which is recognized as the best blade clicker in the world.


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## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

My new archery goal.... to meet John and also Rob and shake their hands. Not because one is a former Olympian and one keeps taking my money, but because of their posts on how they handle their kids who are solid at archery but who AREN'T over-the-top dedicated to it.

These posts really help this dad feel better about ENABLING his kids to shoot to whatever level their ability AND desire take them, but trying hard not PUSH them to shoot beyond their desire or ability. it's really hard to walk that line sometimes....especially when they have 'hints of brilliance' and you want them (key phrase) to see how far they can go. If THEY don't want to see how far they can go, then it doesn't matter. So many parents these days are trying to live vicariously through their kids via sports and other activities by applying excessive intentional or unintentional pressure on the kids......in many cases to the detriment of the kid.

Maybe this Sunday at NFAA indoor nats when Casey is contending for a top spot in ( or running away with?) the YAFFSLR class and my casual-shooting daughter is hoping for scores that land her in the top 10 of the class, I will walk down a few bales to find Rob and introduce myself.

Unfortunately for me, Texas might be a bit more challenging, but you never know. 

Thanks gents!


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, I made the mistake of sharing Tom's idea by sending AAE one of the Clickers that I made and they sat on it for over a year, then came out with it recently claiming that it was their idea. At $29.99, the Slicker Clicker is $10 less and includes a genuine, german-made $15 Beiter Clicker, which is recognized as the best blade clicker in the world.


Sounds pretty shady of AAE to do if thats the case.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tunedlow said:


> Sounds pretty shady of AAE to do if thats the case.


This kind of thing happens a LOT in our sport. And you might be surprised at some of the individuals who do it.

I got a personal call from a certain coach accusing me of stealing his "intellectual property" years ago, when he himself has done this countless times and put his name on a lot of people's hard work. It's sad how often this happens in archery. I suppose it happens in a lot of small industries where people tend to trust each other more than they should.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rat4go, thank you for the kind words.

I'm always leery of posting my experiences for fear of sounding to some parents like I am preaching or trying to tell them what to do. I'm not. Just that I (and Rob and many other JOAD coaches) have seen the good the bad and at times, the ugly. 

I want kids to find their passion in life. I mean, really, what better thing is there than to find one's own passion or to see someone who has found theirs !?! If everyone in the world had the opportunity to find their passion and pursue it, how great this world would be. 

Yes, it's very hard to see potential and sometimes even pure talent, not be used. About 5 years ago, I had a mom bring her son into my club and he was a pure talent. Easily the most natural pure archer I've ever seen. Beautiful effortless positions, natural back tension, you name it and the kid had it. It was very eager to work with him. I could tell that within a year, he would be in a position to win JOAD nationals and make Jr. USAT. 

BUT, the young man's passion was baseball. And if I've learned anything in my years of running JOAD programs, it's that when a young man gets involved in baseball, you can kiss their archery career goodbye. It's only a matter of time before you never see that young man again. And that's what happened with this kid. But hey, he found his passion and will probably play D1 college ball soon. And I'm happy for him and his parents!


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> This kind of thing happens a LOT in our sport. And you might be surprised at some of the individuals who do it.
> 
> I got a personal call from a certain coach accusing me of stealing his "intellectual property" years ago, when he himself has done this countless times and put his name on a lot of people's hard work. It's sad how often this happens in archery. I suppose it happens in a lot of small industries where people tend to trust each other more than they should.


I understand. I just find it weird how I saw the clicker on Casey's bow and AAE comes out with it saying they designed it together with Kaminski. I've met Tom and Kathy - really nice folks and great shooters too. Sucks that Tom's design got poached. I'll get a couple of Tom's clickers once they come out.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I get what you're saying on competing with other sports but I would say that my experience from soccer is that exposure is useful when it comes to expanding the sport's interest levels and visibility. I know people who briefly played and got into other things, but they go watch Dynamo games or are season ticket holders even, or their kids play. Or other people who will watch the World Cup every four years because they might not have the passion to play but they don't mind watching. Doesn't fill a slot at a tournament anymore and it does take away a prospective archer, but when we're talking, what is the sport's stature, how many people will watch, that kid who quit for baseball might be willing to watch the Olympics or the Archery World Cup if they knew where to go.

I'd also be curious if people who go on to pursue sports with more limited shelf lives ever come back. Football in particular comes to mind, easy to get hurt at, finite duration of team play. Unless you go pro you are done at 22 or 23. if you don't go to college, 18. If they are gone for the right age groups it might stunt their big picture chances to be in the Olympics or something, but there are some decent female archers who are either RA or have represented the US in tournaments who took it up after college or even well into adulthood. So why not catch them on the rebound. I get where in some ways archery is like soccer and the main focus there is the youth pipeline, and that's where you're looking for future generations. But while most of the good Oly archers seem to be of the "started young and stuck with it" variety, there are enough exceptions and people can shoot til old enough that I'd consider "rebounds" or trying to convert college grads who abruptly hit the end of high level competition and growth in their sport.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

when it comes to pursuing your passion be it archery or something else sometimes fate intervenes...

i was once a mentor ro a young lady who had so much potential and talent--1300+ shooter after 2 years-- and was also passionate about archery but when she failed to be chosen for the national team for the Asian games due to sports politics she had to choose between waiting for another chance or pursuing her medical career she chose the latter..

she is now one of the most respected pediatric cardiologists in the country but continues to shoot recreationally whenever she can and also took up golf recently and is pretty good at that too..


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Re the original post type stuff, with hard working youth prodigies there are your seemingly positive St. Brown stories and then there are Bosworths and Marinovichs that crack mentally as well as Bosworths that fall apart physically. So I take a step back and say how does it turn out. That being said, you get this good this fast and it takes some of the speculative angst out, there is less reason to question the enterprise, you're not breaking down physically before even getting there, you might see more value in any sport vs life tradeoff.

It probably helps that she is pushing herself as opposed to being pushed, but even if you are self-directed you can pop your head up in your 20s and be like, wow, this is all I have done for years, what else is out there.

I'd say the thing that concerns me is sheer workload, potential over-training. (1) Is a kid. (2) All sorts of nutritional, physical things can happen. Even if you can do it I don't know if you should. You need your rest. I say that but when you're already on the cusp of high levels of performance it's complicated. Do you tell Michael Owen to not push hard when Liverpool is knocking at his door at 16? Well, he was broken down by 26.....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> when it comes to pursuing your passion be it archery or something else sometimes fate intervenes...
> 
> i was once a mentor ro a young lady who had so much potential and talent--1300+ shooter after 2 years-- and was also passionate about archery but when she failed to be chosen for the national team for the Asian games due to sports politics she had to choose between waiting for another chance or pursuing her medical career she chose the latter..
> 
> she is now one of the most respected pediatric cardiologists in the country but continues to shoot recreationally whenever she can and also took up golf recently and is pretty good at that too..


She really is amazing, isn't she. I'm proud to know her. Yes, it's great to see someone find their passion and pursue it to the fullest.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

jmvargas said:


> i was once a mentor ro a young lady who had so much potential and talent--1300+ shooter after 2 years-- and was also passionate about archery but when she failed to be chosen for the national team for the Asian games due to sports politics she had to choose between waiting for another chance or pursuing her medical career she chose the latter..
> 
> she is now one of the most respected pediatric cardiologists in the country but continues to shoot recreationally whenever she can and also took up golf recently and is pretty good at that too..


I mentored her too for a time. I didnt know she was kept off the team. I think she still holds a national record there. She also helped start Bianca and a few other archers that still compete. 

She is a great doctor, and a great lady. I still keep in touch on facebook occasionally. 


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

tunedlow said:


> I understand. I just find it weird how I saw the clicker on Casey's bow and AAE comes out with it saying they designed it together with Kaminski. I've met Tom and Kathy - really nice folks and great shooters too. Sucks that Tom's design got poached. I'll get a couple of Tom's clickers once they come out.


I met and began shooting with Tom and Kathleen in 2010, and he was already many years into using his self created slicker clicker. AAE is full of it if they claim they invented it (unless they're going to try and shade the definition like a designer drug "well, we changed one molecule, so it's a completely different drug")


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

AAE has some splainin to do. This sport is very tight knit. Coaches, shooters and equipment retailers (apparently Rob) have much influence and long memories. It might be a loooong while before I shoot or recommend anything AAE.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This is kinda funny. The AAE design looks just like the clicker extension accessory that I hand-built for both Jenny Nichols and Staten Holmes back in 2011, to specifically address the design of the PSE X-Appeal riser. 

Oh well. I guess good ideas get copied and "borrowed" all the time.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

chrstphr said:


> I mentored her too for a time. I didnt know she was kept off the team. I think she still holds a national record there. She also helped start Bianca and a few other archers that still compete.
> 
> She is a great doctor, and a great lady. I still keep in touch on facebook occasionally.
> 
> ...



Yes..Bianca is her first cousin and was actually inspired by her to take up archery and is also a fine young lady..

she was kinda crushed when she was kept out of the 2006 Asian games team due to sports politics but i guess it all worked out fine in the end..


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## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

rat4go said:


> My new archery goal.... to meet John and also Rob and shake their hands. Not because one is a former Olympian and one keeps taking my money, but because of their posts on how they handle their kids who are solid at archery but who AREN'T over-the-top dedicated to it.
> 
> These posts really help this dad feel better about ENABLING his kids to shoot to whatever level their ability AND desire take them, but trying hard not PUSH them to shoot beyond their desire or ability. it's really hard to walk that line sometimes....especially when they have 'hints of brilliance' and you want them (key phrase) to see how far they can go. If THEY don't want to see how far they can go, then it doesn't matter. So many parents these days are trying to live vicariously through their kids via sports and other activities by applying excessive intentional or unintentional pressure on the kids......in many cases to the detriment of the kid.
> 
> ...


Step 1. Done. 

Good to meet Rob and chat for a moment.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Rob just got more of my money this past week.... this is getting to become a weekly occurrence ......... gotta luv LAS


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I'm not looking forward to that feeling John...  I'm happy that she still wants the ol' man around. She is very grateful for the support that she has including from coaches Dick Tone, Heather Pfeil and others who have been so supportive of her.


I think the most important thing on top of all her accomplishments is that she is a truly nice young lady. Her shooting at Cincinnati was amazing. 300 on the second day of NFAA.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I think the most important thing on top of all her accomplishments is that she is a truly nice young lady. Her shooting at Cincinnati was amazing. 300 on the second day of NFAA.


I saw that Jim. It took me years before I shot a 300 in competition. Lots of 299's on the way though. LOL

I think everyone would agree the most important thing is what a genuinely nice young lady she has become.


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## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I saw that Jim. It took me years before I shot a 300 in competition. Lots of 299's on the way though. LOL
> 
> I think everyone would agree the most important thing is what a genuinely nice young lady she has become.


I had the opportunity to interface with her on Saturday at the NFAA indoor. She was a very polite, friendly young lady. That said, I MAY have been in the right place at the right times to pick up on more than a bit of sibling rivalry.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rat4go, a major reason I was able to do many of the things I did in life was because I had two brothers that were 6 and 4 years older than me. Growing up, my goal in life was to be able to play - whatever the sport - with them and someday beat them if I could. For that reason, I think Connor deserves at least a little credit.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> rat4go, a major reason I was able to do many of the things I did in life was because I had two brothers that were 6 and 4 years older than me. Growing up, my goal in life was to be able to play - whatever the sport - with them and someday beat them if I could. For that reason, I think Connor deserves at least a little credit.


He's as equally a great kid. I've never seen even a hint of arrogance in either. I met them before they were competing on the national circuit when Rob threw a picnic for all the archers at JOAD nationals and the coaches and parents probably 8 years ago.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom Barker always said you could tell a lot about a person by the way their kids behave.


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## olt66 (Dec 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Tom Barker always said you could tell a lot about a person by the way their kids behave.


Where's the "Like" button when you need one? Hope you don't mind John, I'm gonna borrow this from you & Mr. Barker.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom would be honored, I'm sure. He was the best.


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