# Small Bucks - why kill them?



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sharpy, i see where you're coming from, but it assumes that the hunter values a bigger buck for the antlers. That's mostly trophy value. Sure, you can make nice buttons with antlers, but some people may not care.

I don't complain that there aren't nice bucks. I complain that i suck at hunting. I might also complain that the season in my area is too short, there isn't nearby public land to hunt, that i can't shoot a doe. I can work on the first part 

Maybe i should claim that i passed up those bucks so they could get bigger next year. Yeah... well, i guess i can look at it that way. It's fun trying regardless.

I think that letting them grow is a legitimate preference, but then again, if someone would rather take a small one than nothing, i can't say that's not.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't usually do this - but I am going to say this with 1000000000000% confidence - any hunter who claims he places no different value on a big buck verses a fawn or small buck is full of it.

I don't believe for a minute that there is a hunter on the planet that does not desire to shoot a trophy buck over a small buck or a doe.

Everyk hunter dreams of a big buck


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

to each its own, young bucks are TENDER.


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## meatsmith (Sep 24, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ok - since some wanted to discuss this in a new thread - here goes.
> 
> Why would any experienced hunter kill small bucks?
> 
> ...


#1 is an excuse, #2 is a reason.



> Ok - For starts - I am presupossing that the archer has a choice between a buck or a doe - if he cannot shoot a doe and needs meat - shoot whatever you get the chance to shoot.


Legally I can kill a doe with my archery tag, but on the property I hunt, it's not allowed. I kill the first legal buck I see. 



> But if you have a choice between a small buck or a doe - why take the buck?


If given a choice, I'd kill the one with a bigger body. 



> I made up my mind a long time ago that I am not going to shoot a buck unless it is one I plan to hang on the wall. I still feed my entire family on venison and get the meat I need - I am just not killing small bucks.


You hunt for the wall and eat the meat as a side bonus. I have no problem there and don't judge nor tell you what you should kill or not. 



> Talk to anyone who has ever been involved in some sort of Quality Deer Management and see if any of them are sorry they got involved.


A few friends of mine that got into QDMA are getting out. The novelty of big antlers is wearing off for them.


sharpbroadhead said:


> I don't usually do this - but I am going to say this with 1000000000000% confidence - any hunter who claims he places no different value on a big buck verses a fawn or small buck is full of it.
> 
> I don't believe for a minute that there is a hunter on the planet that does not desire to shoot a trophy buck over a small buck or a doe.
> 
> Everyk hunter dreams of a big buck


No, I kill to eat, not to decorate my home or impress anyone else. You may not believe it, but I don't care about antlers. Antlers mean nothing to me. Full of it? No. I just have different priorities than most hunters. Antler size is the last thing I concern myself with. What do I do with the antlers? Skull mount and sell them. I'd rather have money than crap hanging on my wall.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I think it's nobody's business except the guy or gal releasing the arrow.

I target bucks (and frequently eat tag soup) but I have no right, nor does anybody else, to tell someone else what to do with their tag.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - I do not hunt for the wall with the meat as a side bonus - my family and I live primarily on venison and have for the last 20 + years - when all my kids where home there were years that I shot 5 does to have enough meat for the year - I just don't kill small bucks.

and it is an excuse to claim one is a meat hunter and that is why they kill small bucks when they have doe tags

If you choose to not kill does on your property that is a choice you make.

"The novelty big antlers" - LOL - that is hysterical and a load of bull if you ask me and I would tell that to your friend to his face.


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## brian g (Jan 30, 2010)

Why do you care what someone else shoots and who are you to determine what a trophy is to someone else?


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

Easykeeper said:


> I think it's nobody's business except the guy or gal releasing the arrow.
> 
> I target bucks (and frequently eat tag soup) but I have no right, nor does anybody else, to tell someone else what to do with their tag.


:amen: had tag soup 3 years chasing bucks, settled for a doe on the last day & I get a small buck :doh:


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## mcharles (Nov 11, 2009)

> Talk to anyone who has ever been involved in some sort of Quality Deer Management and see if any of them are sorry they got involved. [/QUOTE
> 
> Here's one....
> 
> ...


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I shot a small buck the last weekend of the season last year - I wanted some meat and ran out of time before I could find anything bigger. I think 'deer management' means something different in the Rockies. Managing deer that migrate is much different than deer that spend their lives within a mile or two.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

not everyone gives a rats arse about antlers. Theyre nice hat racks, but make for crappy stews.

heres a novel new approach, shoot what makes YOU happy, and let others do the same. Quit worrying about what your neighbor shoots. That crap sets me off almost as bad as thieves n liars.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe they want to remove the runts from the gene pool.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

trapperDave said:


> not everyone gives a rats arse about antlers. Theyre nice hat racks, but make for crappy stews.
> 
> heres a novel new approach, shoot what makes YOU happy, and let others do the same. Quit worrying about what your neighbor shoots. That crap sets me off almost as bad as thieves n liars.


Don't know why it gets to you so much.....


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## meatsmith (Sep 24, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you choose to not kill does on your property that is a choice you make.


It's not my choice, it's the landowner's rule. I do not own the land I hunt on. If it were my land, it would be different.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

I shoot does whenever I need the meat. I hunt bucks as a challenge to myself, to see if I could out Witt an old mature buck on his turf, under any conditions. But that's just me. I love to challenge myself. That's why I bow hunt.

On a side note: my definition of a big buck may be different from every other Hunter.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I get a kick out of these guys - I do not advocate any laws against shooting small bucks - what I do advocate is ENCOURAGING hunters not to shoot small bucks so that other hunters can experience the memories of a lifetime that anyone who has ever shot a big buck has experienced. I have shot over 100 deer in my hunting experience and most I cannot remember - but I will never forget every detail of my P & Y - that day, that shot, that tracking experience is ingrained in me and relived in my mind very often and is one of the best memories of my life - and I would love to see my kids experience this and every hunting. 

You guys can all claim what you want - EVERY hunter would like to shoot a big buck


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## McChesney (Jan 5, 2009)

brian g said:


> Why do you care what someone else shoots and who are you to determine what a trophy is to someone else?


Exactly...why don't you mind your own business.....try paying $6000 just in property taxes, not to mention hundreds of thousands of dollars for property, and have people sit on the property lines and shoot all your deer going to your hard worked food plots! Do you own property? I do, and it pisses me off when people take advantage of all your hard earned dollars, and work....so I will shoot whatever I want, and people like you can put a sock in it!!!!!


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## meatsmith (Sep 24, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> You guys can all claim what you want - EVERY hunter would like to shoot a big buck


You don't speak for me nor represent me, so stop telling me what my opinion is. I have a mind of my own.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> .....try paying $6000 just in property taxes, not to mention hundreds of thousands of dollars for property and have people sit on the property lines and shoot all your deer going to your hard worked food plots!


That's the old Robin Hood problem. 

Damned poor people shooting the King's deer.


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## McChesney (Jan 5, 2009)

Logos said:


> That's the old Robin Hood problem.
> 
> Damned poor people shooting the King's deer.


I have worked my *** off to buy my land! I am no king, or spoiled brat, I have earned everything....so put a sock in it! People like you make this site wrotten!


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

McChesney said:


> Exactly...why don't you mind your own business.....try paying $6000 just in property taxes, not to mention hundreds of thousands of dollars for property, and have people sit on the property lines and shoot all your deer going to your hard worked food plots! Do you own property? I do, and it pisses me off when people take advantage of all your hard earned dollars, and work....so I will shoot whatever I want, and people like you can put a sock in it!!!!!


So you spent all that money, put in all that hard work on those food plots, just to shoot a button buck? I would rather just go hunt public land


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## Sasquatch74 (Sep 9, 2007)

For me it's all about avaible time. With a full time job, three kids and all of the activities that accompany them, my time is limited. The hunting ground i have access to is over two hours away so my time for a hunt can be tough. I may only get to hunt 5-6 times the entire year. I still need the meat, so when an opportunity presents itself, I take it. If it means shooting a doe great. If it means shooting a small buck, I'm ok with that as well. I try to let some bucks pass, but if I'm running low on meat it's a different story. I won't say the antlers aren't important to me, it's just that the meat is more important.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

McChesney said:


> I have worked my *** off to buy my land!


Not to throw gas on this fire, but one question, how much did you pay for those deer crossing into your food plots from the other side of the fence line?


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

If it's a legal deer and I want to shoot it I will do so, and I won't feel the slightest obligation to explain my actions to someone on the internet.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

Sasquatch74 said:


> For me it's all about avaible time. With a full time job, three kids and all of the activities that accompany them, my time is limited. The hunting ground i have access to is over two hours away so my time for a hunt can be tough. I may only get to hunt 5-6 times the entire year. I still need the meat, so when an opportunity presents itself, I take it. If it means shooting a doe great. If it means shooting a small buck, I'm ok with that as well. I try to let some bucks pass, but if I'm running low on meat it's a different story. I won't say the antlers aren't important to me, it's just that the meat is more important.


Right on...


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## fordtough (Sep 7, 2012)

I dont shoot small bucks, but dont see meat hunters as making excuses.

My pops is a meat hunter. He does not give 2 turds about antlers. The reason he will shoot a little buck today rather than a doe tomorrow? Who the hell knows if the doe will walk through tomorrow?

You gonna skip someone giving you $10 today in hopes someone gives you $100 tomorrow if you are broke as dirt?

I got nothing. Im not near as cool as my Galaxy SIII


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

McChesney said:


> I have worked my *** off to buy my land! I am no king, or spoiled brat, I have earned everything....so put a sock in it! People like you make this site wrotten!


Wreally?

Wrotten?

Ok, I'll put a sock in it for now.....but you really do sound kind of like you're feeling sorry for yourself--complaining about the poor people shooting the deer that you want.

Be different if they came on your property, but you're complaining that they're on the EDGE of your property.

It's a shame when a rich guy can't buy enough property to keep these damned poor people from shooting his deer.


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## McChesney (Jan 5, 2009)

SD BowHunter said:


> So you spent all that money, put in all that hard work on those food plots, just to shoot a button buck? I would rather just go hunt public land


Really? Is this how stupid this site really is? Of course I don't try to shoot a button buck....we have been in QDM for 15yrs! But, I don't tell anyone else what they can do on their own land, or what their preference should be for what they shoot! I was simply stating that it sucks when the vultures sit the property lines of my hard work, rather than do some of their own hard work somewhere else. Nothing I can do about it, and I live with it....but integrity, morals, and ethics are out the window with the clowns I am dealing with! It is a long story, and I probably shouldn't have even shared, and it is the reason I spend little time on here anymore....too may arm chair quarterbacks


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

SD BowHunter said:


> I hunt bucks as a challenge to myself, to see if I could out Witt an old mature buck on his turf, under any conditions. But that's just me. I love to challenge myself. That's why I bow hunt..


That's a great reason! Me, I don't need any extra challenge. I'm challenged as it is!


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Getting back to the topic......here's why we should shoot any damn deer we want......any place we want.

http://www.postbulletin.com/news/stories/display.php?id=1509974



> Across the U.S., there are more than a million car accidents with deer each year. More than 200 Americans are killed and more than 10,000 injured in these accidents.
> 
> Deer are responsible for many billions in vehicle damage and additional billions lost to crop and landscaping damage. Without even trying to put a value on the human suffering and lives lost, deer are probably responsible for 10s of billions in damage across the country each year.





> One will often read statistics touting the millions of dollars of benefit deer hunting has in a particular state, including Minnesota. Rarely is this number compared with the much higher billions in destructive costs mentioned above.
> 
> On a trip back from Minneapolis earlier this summer, my wife and I almost became a deer collision statistic when a deer decided to cross Highway 52 in the middle of the day.
> 
> ...


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

McChesney said:


> I was simply stating that it sucks when the vultures sit the property lines of my hard work, rather than do some of their own hard work somewhere else. Nothing I can do about it, and I live with it....but integrity, morals, and ethics are out the window with the clowns I am dealing with! It is a long story, and I probably shouldn't have even shared, and it is the reason I spend little time on here anymore....too may arm chair quarterbacks


If you are planting food plots, whose vulturing from whom? I mean, someone owns the land and has equal right to the deer on the other side of that plot.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

McChesney said:


> Really? Is this how stupid this site really is? Of course I don't try to shoot a button buck....we have been in QDM for 15yrs! But, I don't tell anyone else what they can do on their own land, or what their preference should be for what they shoot! I was simply stating that it sucks when the vultures sit the property lines of my hard work, rather than do some of their own hard work somewhere else. Nothing I can do about it, and I live with it....but integrity, morals, and ethics are out the window with the clowns I am dealing with! It is a long story, and I probably shouldn't have even shared, and it is the reason I spend little time on here anymore....too may arm chair quarterbacks


Your kinda eating your own words in a sense. If you don't care what they are shooting, then you shouldn't care where they are hunting on their property. 

Your morals and ethics are just that....yours. My morals tell me I could hunt anywhere on my land and shoot whatever deer I won't on my land.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I don't usually do this - but I am going to say this with 1000000000000% confidence - any hunter who claims he places no different value on a big buck verses a fawn or small buck is full of it.
> 
> I don't believe for a minute that there is a hunter on the planet that does not desire to shoot a trophy buck over a small buck or a doe.
> 
> Everyk hunter dreams of a big buck


You nailed it Sharp... I call BS on that all the time at our club

Dave


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## McChesney (Jan 5, 2009)

"My morals tell me I could hunt anywhere on my land and shoot whatever deer I won't on my land."
Perfect...so go buy some land and do what you want! I have also served my country, and continue to everyday of my life....so if you think that gives you the right to be a less than respectful person to me, you are wrong!
I understand your points, and I agree with some.....however, I believe you find this amuzing...I do not, and care not for this....it is pointless...good luck hunting and shooting anything, anwhere you want!


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## cuttingedge (Feb 19, 2005)

Plain and simple: I will take any deer I see fit to take as long as it meets the legal requirements of the area I'm hunting, and I could care less if it gives you the pouty lip.

Arkansas has a 3 point on at least one side rule... I've seen several nasty horned bucks and more than mature spikes I sure wish I could have legally taken because they were carrying so much meat around that I wanted in my freezer.

If you want to be a "sport" or "trophy" hunter, join a big ole fancy lease that practices what you preach. Let the rest of us law abiding hunters take care of the ones you let walk.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

I have also served my country, and continue to everyday of my life....so if you think that gives you the right to be a less than respectful person to me, you are wrong!
I understand your points, and I agree with some.....however, I believe you find this amuzing...I do not, and care not for this....it is pointless...good luck hunting and shooting anything, anwhere you want![/QUOTE]

I never said it gave me any right!


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

McChesney said:


> "My morals tell me I could hunt anywhere on my land and shoot whatever deer I won't on my land."
> Perfect...so go buy some land and do what you want! I have also served my country, and continue to everyday of my life....so if you think that gives you the right to be a less than respectful person to me, you are wrong!
> I understand your points, and I agree with some.....however, I believe you find this amuzing...I do not, and care not for this....it is pointless...good luck hunting and shooting anything, anwhere you want!


It was not disrespectful.... what was disrespectful was you telling everyone to put a sock in it!


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

As I recall, the King told Robin Hood to put a sock in it.

When one has the King attitude.....he naturally feels he should command others to do as he wills.

And for sure......don't stick an arrow in his deer.


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## McChesney (Jan 5, 2009)

SD BowHunter said:


> It was not disrespectful.... what was disrespectful was you telling everyone to put a sock in it!


Copy that! I apologize! You really have too much time on your hands...lol! Get out there and eradicate the herd, on peoples property lines, and inform them that their morals don't matter! lol


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> I was simply stating that it sucks when the vultures sit the property lines of my hard work, rather than do some of their own hard work somewhere else.


So.......there's a deer on a line between your property and mine.

I should leave it alone because it belongs to you?



I won't put a sock in it.

I'll put an arrow in it.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Personally, I'd love to be able to shoot big bucks every year but the areas I hunt really do not have very many and they are mainly nocturnal. I hunt public land located directly between Madison and Milwaukee in the southern part of a state that has one of the highest concentrations of bowhunters/gun hunters in the country. I also live and hunt within the CWD zone where I can shoot a buck with my back tag. After the first buck you can shoot a doe and earn another buck tag and you can pick up four tags a day. The DNR is doing everything in their power to reduce the herd to extremely low levels so believe me when I say the bucks are few and far between on public land. In the past five years I've only seen one mature buck during daylight hours and that was during the rut. The majority of deer I see are usually young deer. So, while I'd like to shoot a nice buck it simply isn't in the cards. I'm very happy to harvest any deer on public land down here. 

Now, I also get to hunt with my friend on private property 20 miles from my house. Everything around that property is private and doesn't get hunted much. I've seen several P&Y bucks over the last few years on his ground. I could have put the hammer down on a great ten point with chocolate brown antlers one year but that was when Earn-a-Buck was active and I hadn't shot a doe yet. The point I'm trying to make is that not every area has big bucks running around and it isn't alway practical to wait around for him to show up. 

The topic of shooting little bucks is always a heated one. At the archery shop we used to register deer and score them. It always amazed me when people would get judgemental on others for the deer they shot. I've seen grown men in shouting matches because one guy felt the other guy was a slob for shooting a 120" 8 pt. buck. In most peoples eyes that buck is a great trophy but everyone has different standards and this particular guy felt a need to lay into someone who, up until that moment, was having the day of his life. I don't care if someone kills an 80" deer or a 180" deer. As long as the person enjoyed the hunt and did so legally I'll shake their hand and offer up a congrats.

QDM is great for people who want to shoot big bucks and generally have the ground and resources to cultivate the land. For many people it is out of reach due to no access or money and can be more of a stress than it's worth. I hunted one property several years ago where the rule was no bucks under 135". I had a big nine point under my stand one day that I would have happily shot and it would have been the biggest deer I killed but I wasn't certain it was over the 135" mark. Two weeks later that buck got shot during gun season and scored a hair over 145". To be honest, it took a lot of fun out of hunting because I had to try to field judge a deer on the hoof and I didn't drop the string for fear of getting penalized or booted from the property because the deer would be too small. 

Just rambling...


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## McChesney (Jan 5, 2009)

Logos said:


> So.......there's a deer on a line between your property and mine.
> 
> I should leave it alone because it belongs to you?
> 
> ...


Real funny....remember, if you sit on my line, and shoot the deer....I will sit on yours and kill every small buck just to tick off the guy who started all of this mess! And, I will invite everyone I know to shoot every buck they can so you will never have to worry about getting a big buck in you life...it will save you lots on taxidermy....thank me later wise guy!


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

McChesney said:


> Copy that! I apologize! You really have too much time on your hands...lol! Get out there and eradicate the herd, on peoples property lines, and inform them that their morals don't matter! lol


Okay if that's what you got from this conversation, then whatever. Just remember that there ate two side of a fence line.!


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

McChesney said:


> Real funny....remember, if you sit on my line, and shoot the deer....I will sit on yours and kill every small buck just to tick off the guy who started all of this mess! And, I will invite everyone I know to shoot every buck they can so you will never have to worry about getting a big buck in you life...it will save you lots on taxidermy....thank me later wise guy!


Not being a wise guy, just encouraging you to rethink your stance that people who sit on property lines are vultures.

Lots of people do it and as long as they're not sneaking into your property, they're hunters, not vultures.

You don't own the deer, no matter how many acres you own and how many food plots you plant.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

There you go. See where this "shoot what I shoot " drivel leads you? 

Grow up people. Shoot what makesYOU happy...and let others do the same...without your condescending attitudes.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

IT"S CALLED DEER SEASON not buck season


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> IT"S CALLED DEER SEASON not buck season


Is that the truth or are you just making up facts to confuse others. If you are, I can no longer trust you and will lose faith in anything you post.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ok - since some wanted to discuss this in a new thread - here goes.
> 
> Why would any experienced hunter kill small bucks?
> 
> ...


Trophy hunting and farming aside, you want to have a reasonable buck doe ratios. When you only shoot bucks, for example you wipe out competition of the fittest... cuz they is hanging on a wall somewhere.... 

If you have lots of deer and aren't actively "managing" for a particular purpose, what biological difference does it make to a herd? Absolutely or at least, probably none if you hunt "indiscriminately" shooting whatever you see. Over the years we've probably done more harm to our herds by bucks only rules than by managing the herd biologically.

I've shot spike deer, I've shot large deer, I've shot considerably more does in my life than bucks... probably by 5 or 6 to one. My bad... would I shoot a young deer... if its legal... absolutely... if I wanted a deer. If there are choices... spike or does... for me, I'd probably opt for the doe... but if she doesn't cooperate... well spike.... *sniffles*..... :grin:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Once again for all the guys who cannot seem to get this through their head - I AM NOT TELLING ANYONE WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT SHOOT - I DO NOT ADVOCATE LAWS IN THIS REGARD, ETC... and I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE A SLOB OR ANYTHING for what they kill.

I am only trying to encourage guys to think about letting them go so they can grow and giving reasons for doing this. I would never call someone a slob or hate someone for shooting a small buck - I may think it was a bad choice in the case of an experienced hunter who has doe tags, but that is it - nothing more than a choice that I don't agree with - but I would never dream of taking away that choice or that the person is a bad person for doing it - got it - get that - do I need to make that any clearer?

the only time it really gets under my skin is when guys moan and groan about not seeing any decent bucks - but year after year they shoot spikes and forks


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Logos I thought all you shot was rabbits?


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

In the final analysis, I don't think it makes much, if any, difference.

Seriously.

There are so many factors to consider......for example, culling the small bucks means less competition for food in the lean winter months.

Big bucks then survive better and get bigger.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

2413gary said:


> Logos I thought all you shot was rabbits?


Naw......I've shot a lot of deer in my life.

Never noticed that the small bucks were more tender, either. 

Corn-fed deer, when processed and cooked properly, are all about the same.......they taste good.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

I dont know ask Jimmy blackmon lol . Id rather see them be shot and used by us then end up as wasted roadkill, the roads are the real killers not us. im happy for him and his ability to get it done and provide for his family


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Once again - if you kill does instead of small bucks - you are still reducing the heard, you are still reducing the risk of car accidents, and you are still providing for more food during the winter months - all the logic to justify killing these small bucks falls apart.

If the herd is in trouble and you cannot kill does - then of course - all bets are off - but if the herd is good and you have doe tags - there is no reason to shoot a little buck that makes more sense than shooting a doe.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Once again - if you kill does instead of small bucks - you are still reducing the heard, you are still reducing the risk of car accidents, and you are still providing for more food during the winter months - all the logic to justify killing these small bucks falls apart.
> 
> If the herd is in trouble and you cannot kill does - then of course - all bets are off - but if the herd is good and you have doe tags - there is no reason to shoot a little buck that makes more sense than shooting a doe.


What about shooting the first legal deer you can? If the fish and wildlife don't set the parameter based upon biological assessment and set a standard of either sex, or bucks of XX inches or longer... or whatever, then really who cares which deer you shoot if you're wanting to bring home meat? Are you actually trying to make this an ethical/moral issue when none exist? What logic is there to NOT shoot a young buck not given the parameter set forth by the state? Until you have rules, the idea you brought up earlier, "If I don't, someone else will" is surely valid especially if you are out "deer hunting".

You can't criticize anyone for shooting a legal deer. The only thing *you can do* is to adjust your hunting to your personal ethics... period. I shoot birds on the ground with my muzzleloader shotguns.... I shoot turkeys in trees... You don't like it... hey... criticize away... I'm not in this for the "sport". I don't have dogs, I don't have a second shot.... you don't like it.. (not you necessarily.. and if you do... same thing..._) tell it to the judge... legal is legal. You are bound by your personal code. Now if the state is doing a bum job of it, you all have commissions. You all have fish and wildlife departments that more than here, give a damn about the game... here they don't... so the I'll shoot anything that moves is pretty typical..... I don't hunt that way personally... but if the opportunity is leaving me with choices... I'll usually take a doe or female... if the opportunity is not there... well.... whatever is.... But that is me... and itis LEGAL.

I have to ask though... *but if the herd is good and you have doe tags - there is no reason to shoot a little buck that makes more sense than shooting a doe*... wouldn't shooting any buck be illegal.... or are you saying that if you have both tags.... ???


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Logos said:


> So.......there's a deer on a line between your property and mine.
> 
> I should leave it alone because it belongs to you?
> 
> ...


Hey Logos, you troll... thought you said you didnt hunt! Go back to referencing your rabbits and leave alone what you know nothing about.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

brian g said:


> Why do you care what someone else shoots and who are you to determine what a trophy is to someone else?


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## tradshooter ed (Dec 18, 2011)

100 percent right




brian g said:


> Why do you care what someone else shoots and who are you to determine what a trophy is to someone else?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rattus - I have not made this an ethical issue at all and went out of my way to be clear about that. I know that the only thing I can do is adjust MY hunting habits and I have - but I can do one more thing - I can try to encourage others to do the same - trying to encourage someone is not forcing them or making an ethical issue out of it.

In your incessant attempts to twist what I say because of your blatent dislike of me - you really make yourself look bad - epecially with your last silly question - whatever - you do what you like - for those I can convice to let them grow I will - and maybe one day some guy will have let a small buck go and he will grow to a dandy and you will get a chance to shoot him - and then - maybe then, not that you would admit - you will see the logic of what I am saying and have a lifetime memory to treasure.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't care what someone else shoots - other than the more people that can be encouraged not to shoot small bucks the more big bucks will be availble for other people to experience the thrill of getting a big buck - and please - don't try and hand me the bs that people don't care - EVERY HUNTER would like to shoot a big buck - so why not give every hunter the best chance possible?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Is that the truth or are you just making up facts to confuse others. If you are, I can no longer trust you and will lose faith in anything you post.


Dastardly he is dastardly - you can't believe a word the man says

Matt


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> rattus - I have not made this an ethical issue at all and went out of my way to be clear about that. I know that the only thing I can do is adjust MY hunting habits and I have - but I can do one more thing - I can try to encourage others to do the same - trying to encourage someone is not forcing them or making an ethical issue out of it.
> 
> In your incessant attempts to twist what I say because of your blatent dislike of me - you really make yourself look bad - epecially with your last silly question - whatever - you do what you like - for those I can convice to let them grow I will - and maybe one day some guy will have let a small buck go and he will grow to a dandy and you will get a chance to shoot him - and then - maybe then, not that you would admit - you will see the logic of what I am saying and have a lifetime memory to treasure.


First off... where have I tried to twist what you say? Second. Where have I ever said I don't like you? Thirdly.... speaking of ethical... What does this mean then.... of yours... "all the logic to *justify* killing these small bucks falls apart." That is not an ethical statement? That is not a morality statement.... who are you kidding Sharp? You really need to get off your crap and thinking everyone is out to get you... I just read what you say, is all, and like telling someone to let a deer walk when it was a legal harvest is well.... ungentlemanly.


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

I used to not shoot small bucks, but since everyone decided to get all high and mighty and try to decide what others should kill, I now just shoot the smallest ones I can, and lots of them, for spite.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ats - that is brilliant - you go with that


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rattus - the term justify was used in the context of dicussing the pros and cons of an issue - when I say to a guy who shot a buck fawn - why not shoot a doe instead of a baby buck - they justify it with their reasons - just like I justify why I kill does or deer in general - we all justify what we do to some degree - I can justify why I shoot a trad bow over a compound - why I don't shoot small bucks - etc... in the context of a discussion about the pros and cons of whichever - that does not mean that one or the other person is unethical.


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## wcw280 (Mar 12, 2012)

Logos said:


> Maybe they want to remove the runts from the gene pool.


Thats hilarious, but I shoot whatever I get a clean ethical shot on. If its a stud its a stud if its a doe its a doe. I feed the homeless in my area generally two to three meals every year from venison and they absolutely love it. I think putting horns at the top of hunting is bull. Its your tag do what you want with it, but don't condone me for what I shoot. I think the deer management crap has went too far. Thats all you see on tv and thats what people think hunting is all about. I could care less if I ever kill a record book buck. I hunt to provide food for the family and satisfy me. the hell with what everyone else thinks.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

ats said:


> i used to not shoot small bucks, but since everyone decided to get all high and mighty and try to decide what others should kill, i now just shoot the smallest ones i can, and lots of them, for spite.


lmao....


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Whatever Sharp. I have taken over 60 deer with a bow. Some nice bucks some small does. Biggest 155 inch the smallest buck in the picture Its all fun. We eat it all. Is this another of your "Im right you are all wrong." Posts that I love from you. Took the little 7 point last year from ground on public land and I still had two doe tags. Made the bow myself. It was a blast. If you have trouble killing big deer thats on you and where you hunt. Hey make a video for us about the subject that will work. LOL Let me guess Im picking on you now. Get a life.


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

*Sd*

Forgot SD love your sig. Thanks for serving this Country.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> rattus - the term justify was used in the context of dicussing the pros and cons of an issue - when I say to a guy who shot a buck fawn - why not shoot a doe instead of a baby buck - they justify it with their reasons - just like I justify why I kill does or deer in general - we all justify what we do to some degree - I can justify why I shoot a trad bow over a compound - why I don't shoot small bucks - etc... in the context of a discussion about the pros and cons of whichever - that does not mean that one or the other person is unethical.


:grin: justify [ˈdʒʌstɪˌfaɪ]
vb -fies, -fying, -fied (mainly tr)
1. (often passive) *to prove or see to be just or valid;* vindicate he was certainly justified in taking the money
2. *to show to be reasonable;* warrant or substantiate his behaviour justifies our suspicion
3. *to declare or show to be free from blame or guilt*; absolve
4. (Law) Law
a. to show good reason in court for (some action taken)
b. to show adequate grounds for doing (that with which a person is charged) to justify a libel
5. (Communication Arts / Printing, Lithography & Bookbinding) (also intr) Printing Computing to adjust the spaces between words in (a line of type or data) so that it is of the required length or (of a line of type or data) to fit exactly
6. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology)
a. Protestant theol to account or declare righteous by the imputation of Christ's merits to the sinner
b. RC theol to change from sinfulness to righteousness by the transforming effects of grace
7. (Law) (also intr) Law to prove (a person) to have sufficient means to act as surety, etc., or (of a person) to qualify to provide bail or surety
[from Old French justifier, from Latin justificāre, from jūstus just + facere to make]
justifier n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Well... maybe just slightly off in interpretation... and I take you at your word... but doesn't the very word justify, regardless of whose interpretation we are using, yours or them scholars, you are questioning a decision that was made. If there was no question, there is no need to *justify.* To say "all the logic to justify killing these small bucks falls apart" is making a "value" judgement in my opinion and I'm saying we have to question what right we have to judge. My point still is, if its legal, we have a decision as to how *we'd* choose to act. 

Is something right or wrong. Is that the same as saying is it legal or not? Shooting a deer in a herd is legal, but is it right? That is a moral and ethical, in my opinion, decision. But it is legal. *That, certainly, is something that I feel we have a right to question, that shooting a deer in a herd.* But to question shooting a legal deer... doesn't require any justification or reason..... in my opinion.

Aloha.. :beer:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Most of you should be glad you don't live in Ca. Archery season is three weeks four weekends. we get two tags if you are lucky enough to get drawn. a legal deer for 99% of the state must have a fork on one side. no does no spikes. the % of kill is less than 10%. A good hunt is puting your pack on laceing up your boots busting your butt at 9000' elevation where most hunters won't go. and then some of you cry that somebody shot a deer that you thought was to small. Give me a break !!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wow...was fairly disgusted last night after reading some of the commentary in poor jimmy's thread..so it had to be made even uglier by posting up a whole new thread exclusively featuring this issue?...i stayed out of it last night..mainly due to disgust...but since a new wound has been cut?..here's the question i pondered but refrained from posting last night..

Okay...so jimmy accidentally down a button buck by mistakening it for a young doe...happens to the best of us under moments of intense duress and excitement..especially for the first one of the year..but..is it really any worse than knocking down several doe's who throughout their lifespan may have given birth to a dozen young bucks?..and that was on purpose..but somehow that's better than jimmys "one-time" common oversight?

imho?..i think the holier than thou types need to go back to church for a lesson on stone throwing.

jmho and Happy Hunt'in folks! L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

After 31yrs in the woods I now hunt for bucks that I feel are mature for our area. In TN it takes 115" to make register with archery equipment. So, I kinda look for bucks that I think are 100" or above. I put those numbers up there cause some guy in Iowa right now is probably saying "good grief, 100" is big?". Location plays a giant role in the terms "big" and "mature". There is no right or wrong way to hunt, only legal and illegal. I can remember every deer I have ever shot, big and small, and I am proud of them all. We are all hunters, because we love it, every part of it. But the "every part of it" is different for everyone, and that too, is as it should be. Good luck to everybody that "bends a string" this year, be the critter big or small. Speck


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Speck1 said:


> After 31yrs in the woods I now hunt for bucks that I feel are mature for our area. In TN it takes 115" to make register with archery equipment. So, I kinda look for bucks that I think are 100" or above. I put those numbers up there cause some guy in Iowa right now is probably saying "good grief, 100" is big?". Location plays a giant role in the terms "big" and "mature". There is no right or wrong way to hunt, only legal and illegal. I can remember every deer I have ever shot, big and small, and I am proud of them all. We are all hunters, because we love it, every part of it. But the "every part of it" is different for everyone, and that too, is as it should be. Good luck to everybody that "bends a string" this year, be the critter big or small. Speck


The five stages of hunting... according to Hunter Ed, is Shooter, Limiting Out, Trophy, Methods, and Sportsman. I don't know that order is important, in that many may hunt for the first time with a muzzleloader, bow, or crossbow. However, it is all hunting isn't it... and having fun is the goal.. along with a dinner or two... :grin:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

9 Point - another guy who cannot read - IT IS ABOUT ENCOURAGING others to not shoot small bucks -not about right or wrong - what is sooooooooooooooo hard to understand about this?


And the ever amazing jinx thinks I am throwing stones by trying to encourage others to not shoot small bucks?

I have stated several times in this thread that this is not an ethical issue or a right or wrong issues - but that is what some guys want to make it - perhaps THEY feel bad about shooting small bucks and that is why THEY want to make this an ethical issue - But I do not - I simply want to engourage others to think about their reasons for what they kill and to consider allowing small bucks a chance to become big bucks.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I say shoot what makes you happy, if its small, big, have a good time enjoy yourself.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would say that a case could be made that sportsman includes not shooting immature animals - hmmmm rattus


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

If yer a sportsman and wants a trophy......that's all good.

If yer a hunter and wants to eat.....that's all good.

To each his own, I sez.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ok - since some wanted to discuss this in a new thread - here goes.
> 
> Why would any experienced hunter kill small bucks?
> 
> ...


My question is ...


_"Why assume anything about this subject ? "_

You have no clue as to the quality of the deer herd for the majority of hunters on this site in their area...

You have no clue as to the genetic make up of all of the various deer herds around the nation...

You have no clue as to the quality of food & browse these herds have across the nation...

You have no clue about what hunting pressure any one particular deer herd faces...outside in your own areas of hunts...

You have no clue about why another hunter chooses to hunt as he does...nor of his available time and money to scout & hunt..nor of his family traditions or land holdings..nor to his access to quality hunting areas..or even what he prefers to do with the deer he has elected to hunt..once he has taken it.

Furthermore...as evidence of what I have underlined...you have absolutely no clue what your talking about when it comes to real deer management and what can actually improve the deer herd in your own area...If you did...then you wouldn't be making such a stupid assumption...and trying to teach others that your way is somehow going to improve their chances on getting a nice buck at some future time..

I have seen whole areas decimated by the indiscriminate killing off of the does in the area due to some bureaucrat thinking there are too many deer in the area..while a antler point restriction was in place..I have also see a major increase in the amount of genetically inferior bucks with large spike/s and malformed racks in many of these same areas..and large racked big body deer have moved out of the area in search of does..or killed off.Deer management on a small scale is not the same as what a state imposes..Deer management on a small scale requires the participation of adjoining land owners trying to improve the quality of what is available to them..and when that chain is broken..makes it a difficult proposition to maintain their standards..On a large scale..by state run programs..it takes more than local government dictating what can and can't be hunted..or trying to appease some of their constituents..or just trying to sell more tags as some states do..Deer management is about micro cells of herds through out the state..*not just as a whole*..and in some areas...where there are a over population of juvenile bucks..and a low doe count...thinning them out is beneficial to that particular area...The point of all of this...is to point out to you...your area may or may not support taking juvenile bucks or more does...and another would benefit from it...and unless you know what area you are talking about...you could be encourage more harm to that particular herd.

Lastly...IMHO...it seems to me the only reason you started this thread is in response to another member whom you had/have issues with...and wanted to prove him wrong in some way...

Next time...if you actually want to discuss deer management...then do so in a straightforward manner and ask real questions..instead of making some attempt to show you know more than other people with regards to the subject.Again...to me...it's apparent you don't...and this topic isn't for wanting to discuss deer management to begin with.

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I would say that a case could be made that sportsman includes not shooting immature animals - hmmmm rattus


 Thats right! He's in it for the experience of the moment.... and not necessarily even hunting... and he certainly doesn't have to answer to anyone if he shoots a legal fawn... don't you agree?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Mac - if the regulatory agency in charge - which is filled with wildlife biologists is issueing doe tags - then I trust that they have studied the herd and know that the herd can sustain the loss of doe. Obviously if you are hunting in an area that has very few does - then you would not want to shoot them - that goes without saying. Mac you are an expert on everything aren't you - and expert on wildlife biology, the human brain, instinctive shooting, broadheads, physics, my motivations for posting things, etc... You are really quite full of yourself - and to use your words - "you have no clue" about many of the things you speak - especially my motivations for posting anything.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> My question is ...
> 
> 
> _"Why assume anything about this subject ? "_
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rattus - no I don't - I don't think anyone should have to answer to anyone for what they shoot - as long as it it legal - my point - once again - ad nauseum - is to encourage people not not shoot small bucks - to encourage them to do this of their own free will - not because it is wrong, unethical, or anything else to shoot a small buck - but rather because everyone would rather shoot a big buck (and I don't believe any who claims otherwise - all hunters would rather shoot a big ole buck than a spike buck or fawn), and the best way to give everyone a chance to do this is to let the small ones go and grow.


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

And JINX I do think your amazing. I need to refinish a few of my older recurves. Yours looks Great.


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## NCstick (Aug 14, 2011)

To each their own!!


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I hunt public land in Michigan and have only seen a handful of mature bucks over the last three decades (never had a shot at one) . Therefore my only personal restriction is to not shoot anything that recently had spots (buck or doe). I have a hand full of 2.5 year old 6, 7 & 8 point basket rack whitetails and several dink racks. I've probably killed twice as many does then buck over the years. In my area the number of overall hunters is declining, but give the very tight access to private land there are more hunters competing on public land acreage. The last couple years I have seen more hunters then deer while in my tree stand hunting.

My two cents worth


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

750 views in about 9 hours - this has to be a record of some sort in this forum - never thought this topic would be of such interest


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Hey you said you where done. lol


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Mac - if the regulatory agency in charge - which is filled with wildlife biologists is issueing doe tags - then I trust that they have studied the herd and know that the herd can sustain the loss of doe. Obviously if you are hunting in an area that has very few does - then you would not want to shoot them - that goes without saying. Mac you are an expert on everything aren't you - and expert on wildlife biology, the human brain, instinctive shooting, broadheads, physics, my motivations for posting things, etc... You are really quite full of yourself - and to use your words - "you have no clue" about many of the things you speak - especially my motivations for posting anything.


No Ken...I am not a expert and don't claim to be...but I am well versed in this particular subject since with acting and doing things to actually help and promote quality deer herds along side my Father from early childhood and those who have been in this feild since that time...I have helped many landowners set up small and large food plots...to try to develop a quality deer herd on their land and I have also worked with a couple of different state agency's developing real strategy for our deer management by feet on the ground scouting and reporting what I have found back to them.Public sentiment in certain areas does influence their decision making...and since you don't live and hunt where I do...making any kind of assumption shows you lack of knowledge and reluctance to understand how each area and state is different in their approach Being and helping clear land in all kinds of weather...I've paid my dues son...I've been involved in hunting since 1963...and have worked my butt off trying to help in my states and in my current area...not just throw out some stupid assumption on a public forum and act like I know what I am talking about like you.

As to the rest of your drivel...I can only say..I can't help it that I actually have more knowledge than you on these subjects...If you actually bothered to take the time to actually learn about them by studying those subjects as long as I have..instead of believing you already know it all...then you too could become well versed in any of those subject and then be able to hold an intelligent adult conversation about them to others who don't understand...and maybe even to those who are in those fields of study...without making yourself look as you always do...

As to the state biologist actually knowing how many doe tags to issue...you are woefully wrong in assuming that...and most folks who are active in any kind of deer management knows this as well...


Mac


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> 750 views in about 9 hours - this has to be a record of some sort in this forum - never thought this topic would be of such interest


It's a very passionate topic. DQM, SBT, antler restrictions and herd balancing will quickly cut the the core of what type of hunters we are. I've ranted on the topic more then a few times myself.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> rattus - no I don't - I don't think anyone should have to answer to anyone for what they shoot - as long as it it legal - my point - once again - ad nauseum - is to encourage people not not shoot small bucks - to encourage them to do this of their own free will - not because it is wrong, unethical, or anything else to shoot a small buck - *but rather because everyone would rather shoot a big buck (and I don't believe any who claims otherwise - all hunters would rather shoot a big ole buck than a spike buck or fawn),* and the best way to give everyone a chance to do this is to let the small ones go and grow.


Hahahahahahah...... you know... this is truly the most unmitigated Bull Chit I have read from you in a long time Sharp... *because everyone would rather shoot a big buck than a spike or fawn.*.... ?????

You have problems Sharp with absolutes. Let me refresh you with what that means... 

Online Dictionary.... absolute [ˈæbsəˌluːt]
adj
1. complete; perfect
2. free from limitations, restrictions, or exceptions; unqualified an absolute choice
3. having unlimited authority; despotic an absolute ruler
4. undoubted; certain the absolute truth
5. not dependent on, conditioned by, or relative to anything else; independent an absolute term in logic the absolute value of a quantity in physics
6. pure; unmixed absolute alcohol

What this means is that everyone... without exception EVER OR FOR WHATEVER REASON.... want big deer over small deer or spikes.... without exception.... Ever... 

This is why I love debate with you Sharp... such a rich environment.... :grin:


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Hahahahahahah...... you know... this is truly the most unmitigated Bull Chit I have read from you in a long time Sharp... *because everyone would rather shoot a big buck than a spike or fawn.*.... ?????
> 
> You have problems Sharp with absolutes. Let me refresh you with what that means...
> 
> ...


No its not. maybe not every hunter but most would includeing myself. i do my best to hold out for last years doe fawns if im out for meat and for bucks 4 years or older. but being on public land i understande not everyone can live up to those standards and will shoot whatever walks in front of them. thats fine if your good and legal , shoot whatever you want, i know im only 1 person but if my standards allow another hunter or myself a chance at a bigger buck later on down the road, then i feel it made it worthwhile.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Welcome to the general bowhunting forum  




I have no issue with what anybody shoots.

I grew up on a farm and have boxes of small racks in my basement from when I was growing up so I've been there 

For the last 20 years or so I have focused on hunting mature animals and that is my choice, if it is not yours that's fine. 

On my land and the areas I hunt we try to only harvest mature animals plain and simple i derive no pleasure in killing inmature animals if we need meat we harvest mature does.

I live on PA and before antler restrictions came into play the average buck harvested in Pa was 1 1/2 years old 

That is pathetic and when Gary Alt implemented them he had death threats from the masses of hunters who freaked out because they always got there buck no matter what and he was making it to hard for them 

Gary's gone........could not take the mentality 

My Daughter who turn 10 this week has her sights set on this buck 










He's far from a giant but for a little girls first buck he will make a dandy. This camera is 50 yds from her bedroom window


I am proud to be able to offer my kids a chance at a decent buck and to teach them my thoughts on stewardship of the land. 

Everyone needs to decide on that and make there own decisions 

But I truly believe you need to pass young animals to kill a mature animal, and if that's your goal let those young bucks pass  

Either way good luck and have a good safe season


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

As my username implies, I am an Urban deer hunter. What does that mean? I hunt in suburban/ urban neighborhoods and I will shoot and harvest any legal deer that walks in front of my arrow. Why you ask? Because where I live and hunt, the deer population is out of control. I travel alot locally for work, and I will see NEW road kill several days a week. The deer destroy the landscaping, run in front of cars, and are just plain everywhere you look. 

I am not a trophy hunter and I would shoot a spike if it were legal. But the law states there must be 3 points on one side in order to harvest the animal. We have plenty of old Bucks wandering around with small racks that I can not harvest due to the antler restriction. I will shoot any Buck that meets the 3 points on one side requirement, including a half rack, as I have one Antlered tag to fill and am not interested in mounting a trophy on my wall. My self imposed mission is to reduce the deer population in my neighborhood, and that is why I would shoot a small racked buck.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

9 point said:


> Forgot SD love your sig. Thanks for serving this Country.


The sig means a lot. Thx ..


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

> But I truly believe you need to pass young animals to kill a mature animal and if that's your goal let those young bucks pass


In a perfect world...I agree...but we all don't live in the same woods..and to me..instead of making statements like and what Ken said which may be fine in your area...that I think it would be better to state as a responsible "hunter" and this includes all types of hunting btw..it is always better to actually find out what the population of the herd you are hunting really holds and not assume anything and if that area can sustain it through out the season...instead of just a few weeks out of the year when we get to go out hunting for them.If what you do works well for your area...that is fine...but..as I have said before...not all places are the same.

It's very nice if you own a large enough parcel of land to raise you children on and teach them how to hunt..but not all have that option...and..if wanting to be a true steward of the land and the animals on it is the ultimate goal and lesson being taught ..that will require more than just teaching ones child to hold out for a mature deer.._and I would bet my next paycheck...you know that too._..I know in your state how the hunting pressure effects the deer by the sheer volume of hunters going out and blasting everything that ambles by..and trying to maintain a decent amount of quality racks on your property is difficult at best if others choose not to follow the same ethics involved..We as well as most states have similar problems...and I have seen more abuse to what I described by gun hunting than ever by bow hunters in general..My state is bad too..but I elected to do something about it a long time ago..and got actively involved in trying understand how to make it better..

Personally myself...I love to see large antlers..but I know if anyone else sees the same deer around here...the chance of it making it through a few more seasons to breed is greatly diminished..For myself... if time/money/opportunity is available to fully scout a area out..and this includes talking with locals..rangers..landowners..about the deer herd in 1 particular area I am interested in hunting...then I will do so since I don't own my own land to hunt on... but I am not out searching for a elusive B&C Safari Club or Pope & Young ranked buck to take normally..and don't have any plans on doing so for the foreseeable future..at my age...I find it just as enjoyable going hunting...than having to "kill something"...I don't go out and buy tags just to help support my state agency..I have other means for doing that when I elect to do so...and...fwiw... if I am going to buy a tag to just fill the freezer..it is going to be a doe tag..and...fwiw... if I have to choose between a mature doe..and a yearling..the yearling will be the one that gets shot..because i know that mature doe can and has made it through a couple of seasons..and can breed again on her next cycle..and have a much better chance of survival if the weather & food sources aren't ideal..or if there are a lot of predation in my area....Is there a chance a button buck might be taken..yes..I've taken 2 of them over all of my hunting...and no...I have never purposely pursued them in general...just as I would make a wager the majority here never have..

Everyone has their own opinions about this..but..knowing about your areas deer herd is still the best and only way of deciding what your going to shoot if your the least bit interested in this..All one really has to do is to look at some of the larger more successful places you can go pay to hunt to see real deer management in place..and the size of some of those monsters being taken...Most of these places will take the smaller bucks..first before allowing the larger racks to go...and they certainly will cull enough yearling's and spikes and forkies as well to keep them from breeding..The problem many have with these places is many can't afford to hunt on them..and the resentment is already in place..More land gone to high end leases and clubs...and yes I know not all practice good management on all of them...but many still do....and the results are still available to be seen..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jparanee - I am in total agreement with you - I hope your daughter gets that buck - I would be happy to shoot one like that with my bow this year -


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MAC 11700 said:


> In a perfect world...I agree...but we all don't live in the same woods..and to me..instead of making statements like and what Ken said which may be fine in your area...that I think it would be better to state as a responsible "hunter" and this includes all types of hunting btw..it is always better to actually find out what the population of the herd you are hunting really holds and not assume anything and if that area can sustain it through out the season...instead of just a few weeks out of the year when we get to go out hunting for them.If what you do works well for your area...that is fine...but..as I have said before...not all places are the same.
> 
> It's very nice if you own a large enough parcel of land to raise you children on and teach them how to hunt..but not all have that option...and..if wanting to be a true steward of the land and the animals on it is the ultimate goal and lesson being taught ..that will require more than just teaching ones child to hold out for a mature deer.._and I would bet my next paycheck...you know that too._..I know in your state how the hunting pressure effects the deer by the sheer volume of hunters going out and blasting everything that ambles by..and trying to maintain a decent amount of quality racks on your property is difficult at best if others choose not to follow the same ethics involved..We as well as most states have similar problems...and I have seen more abuse to what I described by gun hunting than ever by bow hunters in general..My state is bad too..but I elected to do something about it a long time ago..and got actively involved in trying understand how to make it better..
> 
> ...


Mac I agree you can only hunt the best deer you have in an area and all areas are different 

That's why I said that everyone needs to make there own decisions


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

airwolf said:


> No its not. maybe not every hunter but most would includeing myself. i do my best to hold out for last years doe fawns if im out for meat and for bucks 4 years or older. but being on public land i understande not everyone can live up to those standards and will shoot whatever walks in front of them. thats fine if your good and legal , shoot whatever you want, i know im only 1 person but if my standards allow another hunter or myself a chance at a bigger buck later on down the road, then i feel it made it worthwhile.


While I appreciate that you and Sharp share the same values, at least you are more aware of realities and don't fall into the continual assertion of things to prove a point and deal in absolutes. There are, generally speaking, NO ABSOLUTES in hunting, in people, in tastes, in habits... in desires...

I personally don't care if I see a large horned deer, goat, or sheep if I'm hunting. If I see two animals together, one a 30" curl, the other a pole ram (deformed), or ewe, I'm likely to shoot the one that is closest. Personally I don't trophy hunt and though they look nice.. they are but horns to me... Anyone who knows me know that I have coined the phrase for myself that my trophies are ears. If they got ears I'll take it.

Some people hunt to hunt. To get as close to an animal as they can. I hunt for lau lau's... and I think many hunters are just like me... or maybe I'm just like them.

Aloha... :beer:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

It depends on whether or not you shoot them instinctively ... :mg:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

"everyone would rather shoot a big buck (and I don't believe any who claims otherwise"

I think it's funny that you think it's okay to tell all of us what we think and act as if it's absurd for us to disagree yet you do cheetah flips when someone says you don't actually shoot instinctively. Doesn't feel good when they tell you how you shoot but you seem to feel just fine telling everyone what their true motivation is in the woods.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jparanee - I am in total agreement with you - I hope your daughter gets that buck - I would be happy to shoot one like that with my bow this year -


Thanks Ken 

She saw him going to school one morning and sure enough we got him on camera. We will try  

I'm hoping one of these boys wonders by me or her but I have not seen them since last year


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - he is awesome JP - Make sure you post pics if your daughter gets him! In the mean time I will be doing cheetah flips over these guys who claim that they don't want to shoot big bucks - LOL


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> It depends on whether or not you shoot them instinctively ... :mg:


or?...his subconscious neglected to look for a set of nads while the guy in the back told the guy up front...

*SCCCHMOKE'IM NOW!*

and his 40# Titan III put a 160gr broadhead tipped cedar shaft in one side and out the other! :laugh:

his only mistake?..

was posting the pic here. :laugh:

and as usual?...Nice shot Jimmy!


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## Sling_King (Aug 26, 2011)

My freezer was empty all year from passing immature bucks and not seeing does. I'm with you OP but this year I'm not gonna be empty!



Two is one, one is none.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> "everyone would rather shoot a big buck (and I don't believe any who claims otherwise"
> 
> I think it's funny that you think it's okay to tell all of us what we think and act as if it's absurd for us to disagree yet you do cheetah flips when someone says you don't actually shoot instinctively. Doesn't feel good when they tell you how you shoot but you seem to feel just fine telling everyone what their true motivation is in the woods.


LOL....:thumbs_up You basically just described a hypocrite.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> Mac I agree you can only hunt the best deer you have in an area and all areas are different
> 
> That's why I said that everyone needs to make there own decisions


:thumbs_up !!!!!!!!!!!

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL....:thumbs_up You basically just described a *hyp*ocrite.
> 
> Ray :shade:


like that? :laugh:


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I am only allowed to kill one deer a year unless I win one of the Extra buck or doe tags. The minimum for my area is 3 pts on one side. The 3 point reg has been around for many years for my GMU. This years though they did change it to 3 point buck or antlerless. I personally have no issue with someone taking a smaller buck as long as it's all legal. It's not my place to tell any other hunter what they can or can't take... That's the States job. 

Do I want to kill the biggest buck in my area?..... of course. But I am also proud with the 3 point buck venison sitting in my freezer. Besides the minimum requirements set by the state...we have no deer managements set by local land owners. I have my own little rule. I try my best to kill a 4 point buck but i killed a 3point buck on my second day. But i don't go by points alone. I had a 4x5 pass by at 23 yards broadside on the first day...his body was skinny and it showed up too on his antlers. I passed on him. On the second day i had several bucks pass by and this fat 3x3 made my mouth water so I killed him. I made a promise to the farmer that if I didn't get a chance on a legal buck i was gonna take a doe on the last week of archery. Before, it was either you killed a 3 point buck or you ate tag soup...Which I've had my fill of. 

As long as a hunter follows the Regs and doesn't waste meat...It's all good in my book. I think you need to take the region, the type of game, Deer numbers and more importantly hunter numbers into account too. As a bow hunter I'm one of the minority in my area. Someone wants to blame someone else because they don't happen to come across any Big Antlered deer. The Muzzle loader hunters want to blame the bow hunters for running around pushing the deer out of the area. The modern rifle hunters want to blame the bow hunter because we have 28 days to hunt plus the muzzle loader hunters hunted before them. Therefore it's the Bow hunter and the muzzle loaders fault for them not killing any BIG antlered deer.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Call me what you will - I have been called a liar in this forum for years because I shoot well instinctively - I am not a liar, but hey - if you want to believe I am a liar - believe it - just like I believe that anyone who claims he does not want to shoot a big buck is a liar - every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - PERIOD - you can all claim whatever you want - everyone knows that every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - and to claim otherwise is a joke.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sort of like claiming you can't tell the difference in taste between a rutty buck and a sweet little button buck


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> everyone knows that every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - and to claim otherwise is a joke.


Well, I think it'd be true that I sure wouldn't turn one down... but honestly, as a hunter with little skill and experience, at this point in time, I would be really happy to have a chance at a rabbit with dried spaghetti stuck to its head. Down the road, should I become skillful and experienced like you guys who prefer to go after big bucks exclusively, I totally see your point.

I don't think anybody is saying that they wouldn't like to shoot a big buck. Or, at least, that they're categorically opposed to shooting one, but rather, some people find it vastly less important to themselves than you do.

BTW, I sincerely never remember anybody calling you a liar. As far as instinctive shooting, I think some people had a different definition of instinctive. In the sense that you have no explicit formalized aiming system other than looking at where you want your arrow to go, I think pretty much everybody's on board with that. But, at the same time, we can't really turn around and tell people what they prefer, can we? It's not like we're living in Iran, thank goodness. Imagine what deer season is like over there!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> everyone knows that every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - and to claim otherwise is a joke.


Well, I think it'd be true that I sure wouldn't turn one down... but honestly, as a hunter with little skill and experience, at this point in time, I would be really happy to have a chance at a rabbit with dried spaghetti stuck to its head. Down the road, should I become skillful and experienced like you guys who prefer to go after big bucks exclusively, I totally see your point.

I don't think anybody is saying that they wouldn't like to shoot a big buck. But rather, some people find it vastly less important to themselves than you do.

BTW, I sincerely never remember anybody calling you a liar. As far as instinctive shooting, I think some people had a different definition of instinctive. In the sense that you have no explicit formalized aiming system other than looking at where you want your arrow to go, I think pretty much everybody's on board with that. But, at the same time, we can't really turn around and tell people what they prefer, can we? It's not like we're living in Iran, thank goodness. Imagine what deer season is like over there!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Double S said:


> As long as a hunter follows the Regs and doesn't waste meat...It's all good in my book. I think you need to take the region, the type of game, Deer numbers and more importantly hunter numbers into account too.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## meatsmith (Sep 24, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> just like I believe that anyone who claims he does not want to shoot a big buck is a liar - every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - PERIOD - you can all claim whatever you want - everyone knows that every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - and to claim otherwise is a joke.


Your opinion is asinine. You don't know me and sure as hell don't have the right to call me a liar. You're a damned fool for thinking you speak on behalf of every hunter in this country. Nothing but shameful.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Call me what you will - I have been called a liar in this forum for years because I shoot well instinctively - I am not a liar, but hey - if you want to believe I am a liar - believe it - just like I believe that anyone who claims he does not want to shoot a big buck is a liar - every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - PERIOD - you can all claim whatever you want - everyone knows that every hunter wants to shoot a big buck - and to claim otherwise is a joke.


 I asked my missuse what you call someone who says that everyone wants to shoot a big buck....no lie....and without hesitation... "someone suffering from ...." well you know... equipment envy. :grin: I'm a little more charitable and think that you suffer (insufferably) from an affliction of seeing only what you want to see. Again... you deal in absolutes... and if you were a field, you'd be covered in mushrooms.


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## Kevin Mathews (Dec 12, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> I asked my missuse what you call someone who says that everyone wants to shoot a big buck....no lie....and without hesitation... "someone suffering from ...." well you know... equipment envy. :grin: I'm a little more charitable and think that you suffer (insufferably) from an affliction of seeing only what you want to see. Again... you deal in absolutes... and if you were a field, you'd be covered in mushrooms.


:chortle:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

they can all say what they want - every hunter would like to kill a big buck - period - any hunter that had a spike buck and a 12 pointer with a huge spread both giving him an equal shot would shoot the big buck PERIOD! Every man who has ever hunted whitetail deer has imagined a big ole buck giving him a shot and shooting it - and to claim otherwise is hogwash and contrary to human nature.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> they can all say what they want - every hunter would like to kill a big buck - period - any hunter that had a spike buck and a 12 pointer with a huge spread both giving him an equal shot would shoot the big buck PERIOD! *Every* man who has *ever* hunted whitetail deer has imagined a big ole buck giving him a shot and shooting it - and to claim otherwise is hogwash and contrary to human nature.



View attachment 1489465


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## meatsmith (Sep 24, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> they can all say what they want - every hunter would like to kill a big buck - period - any hunter that had a spike buck and a 12 pointer with a huge spread both giving him an equal shot would shoot the big buck PERIOD! Every man who has ever hunted whitetail deer has imagined a big ole buck giving him a shot and shooting it - and to claim otherwise is hogwash and contrary to human nature.


I would shoot the deer with the bigger body. I've done it before. 10pt buck next to a 6pt buck. 6pt had a bigger body so I killed it instead of the 10pt. Got kicked out of my uncle's cabin for doing that. I cut the antlers off and threw them at him. Told him if he cares so much about antlers, take that rack and go it. Haven't spoken to my uncle in over 20 years. 

Tell you what. We're only a couple hours away. If I get a "big" buck this year by shooting the first legal buck that comes within range, I'll cut the antlers off and mail them to you. You have have them. I don't need them nor want them. I'll take the meat, you take the antlers and do with them whatever it is that makes you happy.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

isn't it funny - If I claim that every man who has ever hunted deer has imagined a big ole buck - and I am called out on it by these guys - some of the same guys who say that NOBODY really shoots intinctive - and they call me a hypocrite - LOL.

to claim that there is someone out there that has never imagined a big buck is like claiming there is someone out there who went bowling and never imagined a strike or to claim that there is a fisherman who never dreamed of catching a big fish - it is just sillyness


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If you have not spoken to a family member in 20 years over a deer - I feel very sorry for you and your family - wow - btw - generally speaking the bigger the antlers the bigger the body - you will rarely find a 6 point buck that weighes over 200lbs field dressed - but up here by me - it is not at all uncommon to find 10 points in the 200+ field dressed weight range - but that aside - to not talk to your family over a deer - that is truly sad


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Do you believe in Evolution... :grin:

From:



sharpbroadhead said:


> but rather because everyone would rather shoot a big buck (and I don't believe any who claims otherwise - *all hunters would rather shoot a big ole buck* than a spike buck or fawn


:moose::iamwithstupid:

TO:



sharpbroadhead said:


> isn't it funny - If I claim that every man who has ever hunted deer has imagined a big ole buck - and I am called out on it by these guys - some of the same guys who say that NOBODY really shoots intinctive - and they call me a hypocrite - LOL.
> 
> to claim that there is someone out there that has *never imagined *a big buck is like claiming there is someone out there who went bowling and never imagined a strike or to claim that there is a fisherman who never dreamed of catching a big fish - it is just sillyness


:moose::iamwithstupid:
View attachment 1489472


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## meatsmith (Sep 24, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you have not spoken to a family member in 20 years over a deer - I feel very sorry for you and your family - wow - *snip* but that aside - to not talk to your family over a deer - that is truly sad


Yep. It sucks. All because of antlers. Blame me for not giving a about antlers? 



> btw - generally speaking the bigger the antlers the bigger the body - you will rarely find a 6 point buck that weighes over 200lbs field dressed - but up here by me - it is not at all uncommon to find 10 points in the 200+ field dressed weight range -


Up here, deer are big bodied to survive the winter. Does go 150-160 and bucks are 180+. A 200lb 6-8pt isn't uncommon. I'm in the Keweenaw.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

meatsmith said:


> Yep. It sucks. All because of antlers. Blame me for not giving a about antlers?
> 
> 
> Up here, deer are big bodied to survive the winter. Does go 150-160 and bucks are 180+. A 200lb 6-8pt isn't uncommon. I'm in the Keweenaw.


Yeah.... we can't be right... :grin: ... I have a set of 28" horns.... medium by any standard here in Hawaii.... but it took 4 of us to haul the dang thing out to the road.... thing looked like a stunted brangus.... but what do you know... :grin:


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Why is everyone picking on sharpbroadhead once again. Almost every time he posts something it turns into this. I feel sorry for the guy.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

9 point said:


> Why is everyone picking on sharpbroadhead once again. Almost every time he posts something it turns into this. I feel sorry for the guy.


I feel sorry for him too... but for probably different reasons than you do... :grin:

And actually this post probably started off ok, but do you pay attention to some of Sharps assertions... :grin: You just can't help yourself when he posts stuff some times.... 

Aloha... :beer:


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## Bowsage (Apr 29, 2008)

As of late I have read where around 80% of the deer kill were year and a half olds. Sounds like most people don't care how old they are. Doesn't seem to effect me.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

I like it Jimmy B. Ain't it funny how he always steps in it.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Might as well shut this on down mods. it's going to get ugly. But wait no wonder it was started by...........


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I believe that there are whitetail hunters who don't imagine getting a big buck as much as I believe that there are people who have went bowling and never imagined getting a strike or fisherman who never imagined getting a big fish.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

And any one who says otherwise is a liar - that is what you are saying.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am leaving it at that - if there are people who have bowled and never imagined getting a strike - and if there are firsherman who have never imagined catching a big fish - then there could be whitetail hunters who never imagined getting a big buck.


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

I would have to say that MOST hunters today would like to shoot a big buck. Not saying that that's a fact, just my opinion. 

How many times have you logged in and seen a tread "score this buck please"? A LOT. 

I, myself have never seen a tread " how much meat do you thing this buck will produce".

Like I said earlier, the satisfaction of knowing that you as a Hunter had out witted an old wise mature buck, on his turf is great. Its challenging. But it gives you a "Warm fuzzy" to know that you could beat a buck that has out witted so many other hunters for years.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Ken I'm honestly trying to help you see the logic. There are people around you every day that live this but you fail to see them. You choose to shoot instinctively when you could use an aiming method and shoot more accurately. I could spend a day with many guys who are just "burning a hole in the spot" teach them to gap or stringwalk and they could hit much better but they don't want to do that. They choose otherwise. You could put pins on your bow but you choose to shoot a more challenging style. Fly fishing is no different. There are many times that a fisherman could catch more trout with live bait but he doesn't want to fish from a can. For some trad archery is something they enjoy doing. For others it defines who they are. We make choices everyday that others would think are senseless. I drive a 1995 GMC pickup with 235,000 miles on it and it guzzles fuel. I could afford a new truck that is more fuel efficient. Why don't I buy one? Some of my peers think I'm silly but a vehicle to me is just a means of transportation. I care about utility not style.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken

For what it is worth I agree with you from a deer management point of view. I also hunt heads and eat my tag more often than not. I will also tell you that if on the last day of the season I had a 130 class buck and a spike standing side by side I am going to shoot the spike every time - they taste better, I don't need another rack sitting in the garden, and I don't get doe tags.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Makes sense to me. Never thought of it like that (body size). For a while our neighbors were "that type", the kind of shoot anything that walks. They're gone now though. 

Although, the freezer is still empty. I'm just waiting for a good shot on SOMETHING. I've never taken an antlered buck before either, have to wait and see what the rut brings.


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## Usdi Yona (May 25, 2012)

Sasquatch74 said:


> For me it's all about avaible time. With a full time job, three kids and all of the activities that accompany them, my time is limited. The hunting ground i have access to is over two hours away so my time for a hunt can be tough. I may only get to hunt 5-6 times the entire year. I still need the meat, so when an opportunity presents itself, I take it. If it means shooting a doe great. If it means shooting a small buck, I'm ok with that as well. I try to let some bucks pass, but if I'm running low on meat it's a different story. I won't say the antlers aren't important to me, it's just that the meat is more important.


Pretty much where I'm coming from. I've passed on spikes and yearling does before but I had meat for the freezer. We've been in drought conditions for a couple of years and I didn't fill any tags last year. My freezer is about empty so waiting for big antlers won't feed my family. It must be nice for those of you who can be picky, I can't.


Sent from my iPhone


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy - there ya go

you said: "Ken I'm honestly trying to help you see the logic. There are people around you every day that live this but you fail to see them. You choose to shoot instinctively when* you could use an aiming method and shoot more accurately" *

really???

Please - I don't need a lecture about that traditional archery is - for me it is fun - it is something I enjoy to do - if you enjoy killing fawns - keep killing them - I don't really care - all I have done in this thread is try to enourage experienced hunters who have shot many deer to consider passing on the small bucks so that they can grow - and now you want to tell me I can shoot more accurately if i get out my tape measure and measure out my gaps and aim at the dirt when I want the arrow to go behind the shoulder? 

This is not a debate about what is traditional or which aiming method is most accurate - at least to me - I was simply trying to share the idea of letting small bucks grow so that others can experience the thrill of shooting a big buck as I have - the thrill that JP's daughter will have if she gets that big boy that is around because other hunters had the restraint to let him surive and grow into a mature buck.

If killing immature and juvenile animals is somebodies game - have at it - if using tape measures to aim a bow is a guys game - have at it, if shooting a crossbow or compound is another's game - go for it - if a guy wants to shoot fawns with a 7mm mag and blow them into pieces - go for it - whatever makes somebodies boat float I guess

But for guys who desire to shoot a big buck, desire to see their kids shoot a big buck, - the best chances you have of this happening is to let the small ones survive another season and to encourage others to do the same.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - my freezer is never empty - I fill my tags with mature does - and yes - my buck tag goes many years without filling - but my freezer is never empty. I too have a large family - wife and six kids and we have lived on venison for over 20 years

Usdi - I have made it clear in my posts that if you need meat and have no other options I can understand it - but when guys have multiple doe tags and still year, after year, shoot small bucks - that is another story.


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## Oak Tree (Sep 17, 2012)

If you claim you are a meat hunter....why wouldn't you want to shoot a bigger buck.more meat there.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Did you catch the part where I get no doe tags - given the choice between a small buck and a medium buck I will shoot the small one every time - if you would go easy on the lines in the sand these threads would go better

Kegan - drop the string on the first legal animal you have a good shot at and don't think about it for a second


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Oak Tree said:


> If you claim you are a meat hunter....why wouldn't you want to shoot a bigger buck.more meat there.


Not a meat hunter I am a hunter - smaller buck is going to taste better and anyone who tells you they are hunting for the economics of it ain't real good at math


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Small bucks do not taste any different than big bucks - myself, my brother, and my father and all of our families live on venison - it is the only red meat we eat - and as I have said before - I will bet my bow or any amount of money you want that you could not, in a blind taste test - tell me which deer is which


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - there was no "line in the sand" - I said numerous times - ad nauseum - that if there is no doe tags I can understand shooting whatever. I also agree with you on the economics thing - and makes me kinda chuckle at the "meat hunters" - if all you want from hunting is meat - it would be much cheaper to go to the grocery store.

I happen to like venison - and I also believe it is healthier, but I hunt for the meat to help offset the cost of my hobby - it does not even come close - but it helps - from a strictly economic point of view - I would be way better off just going to the store - and it gets even worse with turkey hunting - that meat from an economics standpoint is worth more than gold -


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

Deer are nothing more than glorified ditch goats. Nuisances, pests, manglers of cars. Kill em all, let God sort 'em out. 


may the Gods frown upon you if you ever shoot a jake though. I'm serious. No joke.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I copied this off of 24 hour campfire. We use a similar list while teaching hunters education in my county. You may or might not fit in one of the categories. It's not my place to lump everyone into one category. I still think that Game species, location, game population, amount of hunters, even the amount of days a hunters has available MIGHT affect ones decision on the game he or she decides to take. 

The Five Stages of Evolution of a Sport Hunter

As with all things in life, a hunter's perspective of his sport changes as time goes by. According to the Hunter's Education manual used by the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department, the five stages of a hunter's life are (a) the Shooter Stage, (b) the Limiting-Out stage, (c) the Trophy stage, (d) the Method stage, and (e) the Sportsman stage.

As the sport of hunting itself changes through the years, so do the factors that determine what "successful hunting" is. Add to this the changes that take place in each hunter's life, and things can get a bit confusing. Some of the factors that can determine or influence what kinds of hunters we become are (a) the hunter's age, (b) his hunting companions, (c) his role models, (d) his personal ethics, and (e) his and years of hunting experience. All of these affect our ideas of "success." Where a hunter fits into one of the five groups may change as he progresses in his hunting career. What stage are you in now? What stage would you like to be in?

The Shooter Stage

A hunter who is in the Shooter Stage talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to being able to "get-in some shooting." The beginning duck hunter says that he had an excellent day if he got-in a lot of shooting. The beginning deer hunter talks about the number of shooting opportunities. Missing game means little to hunters in this phase. A beginning hunter wants to pull the trigger and test the capability of his firearm. A hunter in this stage may be a dangerous hunting partner.

The Limiting-Out Stage

A hunter who is in the Limiting-Out Stage still talks about the satisfaction of shooting. But what seems more important to him is measuring success through the killing of game and the number of birds or animals that he has shot. Limiting-out or filling a tag is his absolute measure of success. Do not let your desire to limit-out be stronger than your concern for safe behavior at all times.

The Trophy Stage

The satisfaction of a hunter in the Trophy stage is determined by the selectivity of game. A duck hunter might take only greenheads. A deer hunter looks for one special deer. A hunter might travel far to find a real trophy animal. Shooting opportunity and skills become less important than finding and shooting the coveted trophy.

The Method Stage

When a hunter has reached the Method Stage, he has accumulated all the special equipment that he could conceivably need. Hunting has become one of the most important things in his life. His satisfaction comes from the method that enables him to take game. Taking game is important but secondary to how he takes it. This hunter studies long and hard how best to pick a blind site, how to lay-out decoys, and how to call-in waterfowl. A deer hunter goes one-on- one with a white-tail deer — studying sign, tracking, and the life habits of the deer. This hunter often handicaps himself intentionally by hunting only with black-powder firearms or bow and arrow. Bagging game, or limiting, still is a necessary part of the hunt during this phase.

The Sportsman Stage

Finally, as a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he tends to "mellow out." He now finds satisfaction in the total hunting experience. Being in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing nature outweigh the need for taking game.

Not all sport hunters go through all these stages, or go through them in this particular order. It is also possible for hunters who pursue several species of game to be in a different stage with regard to each species that he hunts. Some hunters feel that role models of good sportsmen, training, or reading books or magazines helped them pass more quickly through some of these stages.

There you have it, two studies with two very different ways of looking at hunters and how we approach our sport. Does one of these categories describe you? Where are you in your hunting career now? Where would you like to be? Each of us has to decide for himself what kind of hunter he wants to be, and to be the best hunter that he can be.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

am I the only one that wants to go out and pop a button buck for the freezer...just to whiz off OSB?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would say that those stages, like the stages of grief - are not accurate with most people - but a general guideline - most people fall into combinations of such arbitrary stages.

I would say that I am in the middle of them all - I hunt because I love hunting, I shoot trad becuase I like shooting my recurve, I hunt for meat because I like venison and hit helps offset the cost of my hobby, I wait for a big buck - because I like the thrill of shooting a big buck - nothing on earth like it, I practice with my equipment because I love shooting it and want to be as accurate as I can out of respect for myself and the animals I hunt. BTW - there is a reason that it is called "Buck Fever" and not "fawn fever" or "doe fever" - something about antlers gets the heart pumping and the bigger the antlers the harder the pumping and the more intense the hyperventilation.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

On the filling freezer, as that used to be my rationale for spending on hunting - it might not be covered but it is offset. From a purely economic sense, though it seems rational but is not, you can't trade on food bill for another and say you have come out money ahead or offset one for the other. 

IOW, one way is to think is that any meat you put in the freezer is less you have to buy, but the flip to that is that any meat you put in the freezer is meat you have already bought, just prepaid . Your food bill is your food bill and whether you hunt or not has no relation to it. The only way to come out ahead is to put more meat in the freezer than you could have bought for the same money. From a sportsman's perspective, it helps justify what you have spent, though


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Double S 

Thanks for the post 

It is very true 

As for the rest of you 

I don't agree with everything Ken says but more and more I am seeing if Ken says black you all say white 

His statement that all deer hunters want to shoot a big buck in most cases is correct. There has been an entire industry made around this premiss and it is booming 

You don't see pictures of button bucks on the covers of magazines and if they came out with a show called button buck and fawn masters it would be spit on and condemned by the general hunting public 

Go shoot what you want but stop arguing about stupid subjects

Again do what you want, shoot what you want. But if I invited you to hunt my land and by choice you shot a button buck or an immature buck or any fawn I would not be pleased and you would not be invited back 

I know that every area has different circumstances some areas need culling and we are not talking about kids etc. but in general I stand with Sharp on this one. 

Soon the mods will shut this one down and I don't blame them 

For years I stayed away from hunting forums and this is why 

Again welcome to the General Bowhunting Forum


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## AngelDeVille (May 9, 2012)

I have a small freezer.


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

Personal decision and as such, personally I'm opposed to shooting small bucks. I had two within 8 steps last week and got to full draw with my Omega on both of them. I smiled, let down, and enjoyed the experience. I eat a lot of venison but it certainly doesn't replace my meat bill, I just choose not to shoot small deer, buck or doe.

Like JParanee I've allowed people to hunt my land. I once had what I call a "hunting season best friend". I laughingly called him "the blister" because he always showed up at the beginning of hunting season.....after all the work was done. He called and asked if I'd let his son take his first deer on my property, I willingly welcomed them. Thirty minutes after I put them on a stand I knew would let the boy have a shot I heard two. Two small does on the ground, a little peeved but no big problem, there were plenty and I needed to work on the buck/doe ratio a little. Then it became "can he try for a buck?". Again, no problem, the boy could shoot horns but if his father shot it was 8 point or above only. An hour later again, two shots but this time there were two spikes down. They were invited to leave and never allowed to hunt on my land again.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I vote Angel as the best reason for shooting a fawn or small buck


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Long Rifle said:


> Personal decision and as such, personally I'm opposed to shooting small bucks. I had two within 8 steps last week and got to full draw with my Omega on both of them. I smiled, let down, and enjoyed the experience. I eat a lot of venison but it certainly doesn't replace my meat bill, I just choose not to shoot small deer, buck or doe.
> 
> Like JParanee I've allowed people to hunt my land. I once had what I call a "hunting season best friend". I laughingly called him "the blister" because he always showed up at the beginning of hunting season.....after all the work was done. He called and asked if I'd let his son take his first deer on my property, I willingly welcomed them. Thirty minutes after I put them on a stand I knew would let the boy have a shot I heard two. Two small does on the ground, a little peeved but no big problem, there were plenty and I needed to work on the buck/doe ratio a little. Then it became "can he try for a buck?". Again, no problem, the boy could shoot horns but if his father shot it was 8 point or above only. An hour later again, two shots but this time there were two spikes down. They were invited to leave and never allowed to hunt on my land again.




And that is totally reasonable. It's your property and you have the right to expect guests to repect your rules which you likely made known to 'the blister'. The bad part I see here is the morals that he was demonstrating to his son. I would not like his way of doing things even if he was my best friend year round, much less someone who becomes your friend when he needs a place to go hunting.

I believe that sharpbroadhead has failed to consider what double s and others have pointed out. The circumstances are different for others than his. Too many different situations to go into here but still widely varied depending on many sets of circumstances. 
He also chose to use the word everyone instead of almost everyone,many people or lots of people. When you say everone wants to shoot a big buck with a nice rack around here you open a can of worms. There are some people who don't seem to understand that he did not mean literally everybody on the face of the earth who ever went hunting. But generally speaking,it is what most deer hunters wish for. I'm pretty sure that everyone that I know would much rather kill a big rack deer than a little one any day of the week.
We just happen to have some people here who want to make noise about something. As JParanee said,if sharpbroadhead says it,then it MUST be disputed at all costs. Doesn't seem to matter how silly their argument is.
In general I agree that to have bigger bucks in any area then the smaller ones must be allowed to walk. There are some areas that are over run by deer and thinning is in order. Then other places where one is lucky to find any kind of deer to shoot. So the rules of the game won't be the same.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Forestgump said: _"I believe that sharpbroadhead has failed to consider what double s and others have pointed out. The circumstances are different for others than his. Too many different situations to go into here but still widely varied depending on many sets of circumstances."_"

Forest, for what feels like the billionth time in this thread - I am not saying that this is an ethical issue, that laws should be past, or that we should look down upon hunters who choose to shoot small bucks - I am simply trying to encourage them to allow the small ones to grow.

I don't like the reasons used by guys who shoot small bucks - ie: "If I don't shoot them the neighbors will" or "I am a meat hunter and you can't eat horns" - these are excuses made by someone who obviously does not feel good about it - if you want to shoot small bucks - just say it like it is - I like shooting whatever I can and don't want to be selective - and that is fine with me.

Obviously there are other valid reasons to shoot small bucks - ie: no doe tag, not time to hunt, new hunter, or whatever - and that is all fine and good - whatever a guy wants to do - but when a guy has mulitple doe tags, is an experienced hunter who has shot many deer, and has all the time in the world to hunt, but year after year still shoots little bucks and then to top it off whines that there are no big bucks - and then uses the excuses that if he doesn't shoot them the neighbor will or that he is a meat hunter and doesn't care about antlers - come on - just tell it like it is - you like killing animals and you don't care what animals they are and you don't have the patience and self discipline to allow the small bucks to grow so that you can one day have a chance at the big bucks you whine do not exist. (the "you" is not meant towared any specific individual in this thread - just that type of hunter in general)


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

"Im a trophy hunter"

excuse made by "hunter" with empty freezer 

bwahaha


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

trapperDave said:


> "Im a trophy hunter"
> 
> excuse made by "hunter" with empty freezer
> 
> bwahaha


I'm a trophy hunter


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

trapperDave said:


> "Im a trophy hunter"
> 
> excuse made by "hunter" with empty freezer
> 
> bwahaha





BarneySlayer said:


> I'm a trophy hunter


Me too, at least after I eat the one remaining chunk of sausage.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I believe that there are whitetail hunters who don't imagine getting a big buck as much as I believe that there are people who have went bowling and never imagined getting a strike or fisherman who never imagined getting a big fish.


But... but... but....


sharpbroadhead said:


> but rather because *everyone would rather shoot a big buck *(and I don't believe any who claims otherwise - *all hunters would rather shoot a big ole buck *than a spike buck or fawn


... Why on earth didn't you say that in the first place... and frankly, sharp, you deal too much in absolutes without any facts, most of the time... So why didn't you just say this 5th page admission in the first place?... But like I sayed.... a rich target environment... :grin:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Small bucks do not taste any different than big bucks - myself, my brother, and my father and all of our families live on venison - it is the only red meat we eat - and as I have said before - I will bet my bow or any amount of money you want that you could not, in a blind taste test - tell me which deer is which


Ken - All I got to say is if you can't tell the difference between a rutting buck and a little guy with milk on his lips - you need to work on how you are cooking them.

Matt


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## mcharles (Nov 11, 2009)

So, how much meat do ya think's on him?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> Double S
> 
> Thanks for the post
> 
> ...


You almost fell into Sharps typical and regular pattern of posting here... but you must have sat back and said... well maybe most of the time instead of all, every,only etc... etc... etc... Then what makes Sharp so much fun is that he TYPICALLY NEVER corrects himself and would rather argue his "right" position as opposed to just saying ... "well ok then.... maybe its supposed to be some, most, usually... But in my experience.... he can't bring himself to correct himself and sometimes really looks buffoonish... on purpose... as opposed to me.. who grew up that way.

Now as for you inviting someone to your property and being unhappy if they shot a spike... well it is your property and I am assuming that you made your management plans clear to them before they came hunting... and if not... I'd have to question your relationships a little since you statement seems to indicate you mightt be looking for "gotcha" moments.... but that is just my opinion... after all.... not all of us are the accomplished chefs that the broadhead family are and who can make shoe leather taste like wagyu... and for example.. goats that we have here... all good... the young..... ohhh my.... and if one comes from the background or training of young deer are more tasty... and you've heard a lot of that here... except again from.... hehehe... ok kidding... well maybe not.. but anyways... they might just shoot a button because they are in his experience, the more choice meat.

Anyway... what anyone does on their property and how they treat their friends is their business... and I shouldn't be poking my nose into it, except only you open the discussion... I just pray you just say... hey.... no buttons or spikes... before you send them out.

Sharp is his own worst enemy and if you want to defend his outlandish and outrageous statements... such as what he said here... "


sharpbroadhead said:


> but rather because *everyone* would rather shoot a big buck (and I don't believe any who claims otherwise - *all hunters *would rather shoot a big ole buck than a spike buck or fawn!"


 that too is your option as a freeman!

Aloha... :beer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I think all that gas from those vulcanos is getting to rattus


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

trapperDave said:


> "Im a trophy hunter"
> 
> excuse made by "hunter" with empty freezer
> 
> bwahaha


Hahaha.... first I've heard that one... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I think all that gas from those vulcanos is getting to rattus


Nope.... you provide all the gas needed sharp.... all the gas needed... :thumbs_up

And just out of curiosity... why don't you just come out and say... "Ok... I misspoke maybe... what I meant to say was that given the choice.. *I think that* most hunters would rather shoot a big buck rather than a small one... all things being equal!"


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

Id rather leave the deer alone to live another day and spend my time beating people so bad at archery shoots that they sell their stuff on ebay the next day! Now that is thee best archery kill!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

only shots big bucks - but also has a full freezer every year

loves to shoot competitively - but never thought of it in terms of beating someone else - rather beating myself and becoming the best shot I can be


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh boy - ok - I don't beat myself -


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

the other archer is always the obstacle you must overcome. Yes being your best is great but beating someone when they are shooting great is even better. I have done this and there is no better feeling. Killing a deer doesnt match up to making
another archer leave the shoot with his head hung low!


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

So with all the deer i have taken with a bow. Ie your comment of not being a new hunter sharpbroadhead and the two people from this post that agree with him you are saying that i was wrong to take that little seven point on public land, from the ground, with a bow i made. Wow you guys must be some great hunters i am honored to be just talking to you and to learn from your vast hunting experience. Wait i have taken big bucks and lots of does with a compound new to trad though.guess ill learn from other guys about the trad thing.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

So those that don't shoot small bucks are only taking 4.5 and older?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

9 Point - where did I ever say anyone was wrong to shoot a small buck - again - ad nauseum - I am trying to encourage others to not shoot small bucks - just like I may try to encourage you to eat vanilla ice cream - if you choose not to eat it - does not mean I think you are wrong or a bad person!

david - sorry I don't get pleasure from making others feel bad - If I beat someone - I encourage them and congrat them and remind them of the any given Sunday rule.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh and Steve - since the ONLY way to age a buck is after it is dead and its teeth are examined - there is no way to know how old a buck is until after it is shot - such criteria is really silly - the only way we can reasonably judge the age of a buck when hunting is by antler and body size - my P&Y aged at 3.5 and that was one for the books - it all depends


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SteveB said:


> So those that don't shoot small bucks are only taking 4.5 and older?





sharpbroadhead said:


> oh and Steve - since the ONLY way to age a buck is after it is dead and its teeth are examined - *there is no way to know how old a buck is until after it is shot *- such criteria is really silly - *the only way we can reasonably judge the age of a buck when hunting is by antler and body size *- my P&Y aged at 3.5 and that was one for the books - it all depends


http://www.whitetailsinsight.com/deermanagement.htm



whitetailsinsight.com said:


> 4½ years
> Because their stomachs, chests and necks are now fully developed, most four-year-olds have legs that appear too short for their body. They have fully-muscled shoulders, heavy swelling in their neck during the rut, and their waist has dropped down to become even with their chest. Given adequate nutrition they’ll become structurally mature and can reach 75 to 90 percent of their antler growth potential. They also have a lot of tarsal staining and during the rut the stain may extend below the tarsal gland. *Four-year-olds have an entirely different appearance than one- to three-year-old bucks*.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> You almost fell into Sharps typical and regular pattern of posting here... but you must have sat back and said... well maybe most of the time instead of all, every,only etc... etc... etc... Then what makes Sharp so much fun is that he TYPICALLY NEVER corrects himself and would rather argue his "right" position as opposed to just saying ... "well ok then.... maybe its supposed to be some, most, usually... But in my experience.... he can't bring himself to correct himself and sometimes really looks buffoonish... on purpose... as opposed to me.. who grew up that way.
> 
> Now as for you inviting someone to your property and being unhappy if they shot a spike... well it is your property and I am assuming that you made your management plans clear to them before they came hunting... and if not... I'd have to question your relationships a little since you statement seems to indicate you mightt be looking for "gotcha" moments.... but that is just my opinion... after all.... not all of us are the accomplished chefs that the broadhead family are and who can make shoe leather taste like wagyu... and for example.. goats that we have here... all good... the young..... ohhh my.... and if one comes from the background or training of young deer are more tasty... and you've heard a lot of that here... except again from.... hehehe... ok kidding... well maybe not.. but anyways... they might just shoot a button because they are in his experience, the more choice meat.
> 
> ...



Dear Rattus  

I kinda am offended that you think I would bait anyone 

Especially with something like being unclear with someone I am inviting to hunt, so I could bait them into shooting something I would be upset about 

Who the would do that ?

I have a simple rule at my house kids anything but try to not have milk running off its lip.

As for adults there are 8 guys I hunt deer with. We have hunted for 20 years together. We all own good private land. We hunt all our properties as one. I have lived in my home for 23 years I built it. I grew up on the other side of the mountain and played where my house sits today. I have managed my land that butts up with 4 other property owners land. They allow some hunting but I have run of the entire area. I have only harvested a handful of deer off this area in as many years that I've been there. I have deer in my yard that I could shoot from my window. We usually stand hunt early on and then we do Deer Archery drives. 

The rule is simple all the does you want and any mature Buck that you would mount. All of these guys have walls full of deer so they are selective. During drives sometimes things happen fast and a buck that if it would have had time to be scrutinized might have been past up. But all are decent bucks for Pa 


I am very selective about what I shoot anymore. Usually I am too busy keeping the under armor high tec expandable generation ( sorry Sharp  ) from sneaking on the land and climbing a tree (because on foot if not doing a drive they aren't gonna get near them) and lobbing arrows at insane distances at the deer. They all want big bucks and they all wound the out of everything. They are afraid to look for them so if they do not fall over which isn't what most bow shot deer do , they sneak out and my dogs find a rotten carcass. 

The buck I showed earlier in the thread that I said I had not seen since last year. Well I can't positively prove it, but my dogs found him with his head cut off blown up like a ball










Great waste of a great deer 

So I'll ask again why would I bait someone to shoot an immature deer at my house where i feed in the hard winters and do my best to care for them ? Just to be a dick to someone ? 

You don't have to do it my way 

I said its every bodies own decision 

I don't agree with everything Sharp says (expandables suck ) but on this one he has every right in the world to have an opinion on passing young Bucks. His position on everybody wants to shoot a big Buck is subjective but the vast majority of hunters do. Ask any hunting tv show, hunting magazines , outfitters, guides. There is a whole cleverly marketed sub culture with it. Big Whitetails have become big money.

There is a pile of stands , ladders etc from all the that sneak in. I got news for ya they ain't sneaking in risking ther ass to me and my dogs to shoot does, there looking for bucks. 

If ya don't believe me some of you know John Wert , he's been to my house and plans on hunting there a bit this year. He's welcome and can shoot any mature deer he wants to. I think he will follow the rules and I won't try to trick him onto shooting a fawn ?


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I don't usually do this - but I am going to say this with 1000000000000% confidence - any hunter who claims he places no different value on a big buck verses a fawn or small buck is full of it.
> 
> I don't believe for a minute that there is a hunter on the planet that does not desire to shoot a trophy buck over a small buck or a doe.
> 
> Everyk hunter dreams of a big buck



And I can say with 10000000000000% confadance you are Wrong --- not every one feels a deer should die just because of his rack. I have and will let a trophy buck walk each and every time--I have no desire to have one mounted and it would make me feel ashamed to shot one and just eat him which would be no tribute to his trophy status. Am I a goody two shoes -- nope I just see a buck of that status in a different view - he has earned something -and from me its his right to life. After all there will always be a neighbor to shoot him -- and hopefully he will mount him and not just show him off for the glory and then discard him.


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## AngelDeVille (May 9, 2012)

My parents were killed my a gang of small bucks.... I'm just trying to get some woods justice....


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> And I can say with 10000000000000% confadance you are Wrong --- not every one feels a deer should die just because of his rack. I have and will let a trophy buck walk each and every time...


But.......do you have any swampland for sale in Florida?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> Dear Rattus
> 
> I kinda am offended that you think I would bait anyone
> 
> ...


 You can be offended all you wish... you opened up the conversation and you were the ones that posted your words... personally I don't give a chit.


rattus58 said:


> Now as for you inviting someone to your property and being unhappy if they shot a spike... well it is your property and *I am assuming *that you made your management plans clear to them before they came hunting... *and if not..*. I'd have to question your relationships a little since you statement seems to indicate you mightt be looking for "gotcha" moments.... but that is just my opinion...


 The point I was making, which you seem to have missed, since I also said how you conduct your business is your business and not mine.... is that unlike you and sharp, there are many many hunters who are taught that young deer are better eating. Some of us experience that revelation ourselves from practice and time in the kitchen... and I suspect, don't have the culinary expertise as do you and sharp. Some people might shoot young deer just because... and if you don't tell them... hey... and you didn't say what you did... but again if you are offended... so be it... I'm sorry you are offended by my inarticulate manner in presenting my case.

Aloha.. :beer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Rattus - you are really something - again - speak to any wildlife biologist - the only way to KNOW FOR CERTAIN THE AGE OF A DEER IS BY EXAMINATION OF THEIR TEETH.

Ya know for a while I thought guys like you only irritated people like me - but when you get a nice guy like JP soooo angry - that is really sad


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Rattus - you are really something - again - speak to any wildlife biologist - the only way to KNOW FOR CERTAIN THE AGE OF A DEER IS BY EXAMINATION OF THEIR TEETH.
> 
> Ya know for a while I thought guys like you only irritated people like me - but when you get a nice guy like JP soooo angry - that is really sad


he made himself angry... not me... and as for wildlife biologists.... what do you think I posted.... you think that the whitetailinsight site is run by kindergarteners? Did you read *what you posted?* You are laughable sharp if someone is offended by not being clear... ask me if I give a chit sharp... and unlike YOU... I actually qualified my comments... sorry he is ohhh soooo sensitive.


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## z7MagnumFreak (Aug 6, 2012)

Logos said:


> Getting back to the topic......here's why we should shoot any damn deer we want......any place we want.
> 
> http://www.postbulletin.com/news/stories/display.php?id=1509974


I would rather have more white tail than people any day....Stupid post. There are way more people than deer anyways.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

z7MagnumFreak said:


> I would rather have more white tail than people any day....Stupid post. There are way more people than deer anyways.


Hahahahahahaha......


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I would say that those stages, like the stages of grief - are not accurate with most people - but a general guideline - most people fall into combinations of such arbitrary stages.
> 
> I would say that I am in the middle of them all - I hunt because I love hunting, I shoot trad becuase I like shooting my recurve, I hunt for meat because I like venison and hit helps offset the cost of my hobby, I wait for a big buck - because I like the thrill of shooting a big buck - nothing on earth like it, I practice with my equipment because I love shooting it and want to be as accurate as I can out of respect for myself and the animals I hunt. BTW - there is a reason that it is called "Buck Fever" and not "fawn fever" or "doe fever" - something about antlers gets the heart pumping and the bigger the antlers the harder the pumping and the more intense the hyperventilation.


I should of read this thread to the end and I would not have responded but your 100000000% got me.
Every one hunts and shoots deer for their own reasons - I don't shot fawns just does and the younger bucks but I don't fever over them.
And when I do see a trophy class buck for me its a sight to see a wonder of nature - its not in me to let one fly its good enough for me to just get to see one and alive. 
Any how if I would of read to the end I wouldn't of responded. I guess I just wanted u to know not everyone dreams of horns


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

Logos said:


> But.......do you have any swampland for sale in Florida?


 I take it you don't believe me. Its all good. On the lighter side I wish I did own some land down in Florida or Texas that is something I dream about. Its ok u don't believe me about the bucks. Every one hunts for different reasons and I respect that.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

imeasyee said:


> I take it you don't believe me. Its all good. On the lighter side I wish I did own some land down in Florida or Texas that is something I dream about. Its ok u don't believe me about the bucks. Every one hunts for different reasons and I respect that.


You must understand here... that folks that sometimes post here, suffer from an affliction of one, believing only what they want to hear/see, and then 2) extend their own belief system to everyone else, in sharps case... and when your belief system isn't their belief system... *you, sir, are the liar... :grin:*


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

imeasyee said:


> I take it you don't believe me. Its all good. On the lighter side I wish I did own some land down in Florida or Texas that is something I dream about. Its ok u don't believe me about the bucks. Every one hunts for different reasons and I respect that.


I believe that someone would pass up a trophy whitetail just like I believe they'd pass up a roll of hundred dollar bills laying in the street.

On a lighter note......as the global warming and drought continue and increase, there will be plenty of land available in Florida and Texas.....so you're in luck.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> I believe that someone would pass up a trophy whitetail just like I believe they'd pass up a roll of hundred dollar bills laying in the street.
> 
> On a lighter note......as the global warming and drought continue and increase, there will be plenty of land available in Florida and Texas.....so you're in luck.


As I just said... those that have a belief system of their own, will consider anyone else to be a liar. Well let me suggest, that some folks who see a roll of bills or a wallet don't pocket it like you seem to say you would do. Some folks are actually honest enough to turn that wallet/money into whomever they can to make sure the right people get it back.


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## Lank Thompson (Jun 20, 2011)

McChesney said:


> Copy that! I apologize! You really have too much time on your hands...lol! Get out there and eradicate the herd, on peoples property lines, and inform them that their morals don't matter! lol


Just to be clear. You build food plots that attract deer off of other people's property and complain when they are shot while leaving the other peoples property to feed on your food plots? This angers you? Maybe you should look up the word "paradigm" and see things from another perspective. Nothing wrong with what you are doing until you get mad about them hunting the same deer.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> As I just said... those that have a belief system of their own, will consider anyone else to be a liar. Well let me suggest, that some folks who see a roll of bills or a wallet don't pocket it like you seem to say you would do. Some folks are actually honest enough to turn that wallet/money into whomever they can to make sure the right people get it back.


You can't turn in a trophy buck or an unmarked roll of bills.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Lank Thompson said:


> Just to be clear. You build food plots that attract deer off of other people's property and complain when they are shot while leaving the other peoples property to feed on your food plots? This angers you? Maybe you should look up the word "paradigm" and see things from another perspective. Nothing wrong with what you are doing until you get mad about them hunting the same deer.


I missed something here... but are you saying that someone who owns a food plot, built to attract deer say from my property to his, would be upset that I set up a blind on my property along a travel path used by deer on my property to go to his, is upset by my setting up on my property to kill deer going to his... ???? I just can't say... I mean I don't have the vocabulary to adequately express... in other words.... words fail me... hahahahahahahahhaa


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> You must understand here... that folks that sometimes post here, suffer from an affliction of one, believing only what they want to hear/see, and then 2) extend their own belief system to everyone else, in sharps case... and when your belief system isn't their belief system... *you, sir, are the liar... :grin:*


Yes I do see your point and was confirmed by the post after yours - I do like this forum besides the net movie channel this is the other most fun I have during my recliner time.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> You can't turn in a trophy buck or an unmarked roll of bills.


Of course you can turn in a roll of unmarked money...... now it is true that I pocket nickels, quarters, and pennies almost everyday while jogging.... and there are enough Christian folks and others who would turn in a roll of found cash.... someone needs that money.... and God don't work that way... :grin:


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## Lank Thompson (Jun 20, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> I missed something here... but are you saying that someone who owns a food plot, built to attract deer say from my property to his, would be upset that I set up a blind on my property along a travel path used by deer on my property to go to his, is upset by my setting up on my property to kill deer going to his... ???? I just can't say... I mean I don't have the vocabulary to adequately express... in other words.... words fail me... hahahahahahahahhaa


Look at the McChesney posts near the beginning. I was blown away as well.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Rattus I am not mad 

From the beginning I wrote do whatever floats your boat 

I just can't find where I wrote or where you derived that I would enjoy inviting people to hunt my land and not tell them my guidelines just so I could put them in a bad situation 

Pretty simple question 

Where are you getting this ? 

Please tell me


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## slamnationalley (Jul 5, 2007)

I, personally, don't shoot young bucks. I will however cull a mature inferior buck to get him out of the gene pool. I have more friends than not who cannot control themselves when a deer gets in range and must shoot every antlered deer they see. I have lost a few friends due to them coming to hunt with me on my managed property and wacking a young buck instead of a doe. The rule is, if you're not willing to pay me $400 (I'm a taxidermist) to put it on your wall, then it had better still be walking. A buddy of mine has a $400 three point on his wall and no further invites to come back. But to each his own, dead deer don't grow.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> Rattus I am not mad
> 
> From the beginning I wrote do whatever floats your boat
> 
> ...





JParanee said:


> Again do what you want, shoot what you want. *But if I invited you to hunt my land and by choice you shot a button buck or an immature buck or any fawn I would not be pleased and you would not be invited back *


This was part of it.... :grin:

And so we don't lose sight of what I posted... 



rattus58 said:


> Now as for you inviting someone to your property and being unhappy if they shot a spike... well it is your property and *I am assuming *that you made your management plans clear to them before they came hunting... *and if not*... I'd have to question your relationships a little since you statement seems to indicate you mightt be looking for "gotcha" moments.... but that is just *my opinion*...


And lastly... I did not in any way intimate that you enjoyed doing anything of the kind. I posted an opinion. And further lastly.... I can see where my ("gotcha" moments) might be construed as "enjoyed" it was not intended as such... and if that is what leads you your suggestion... that would be my error in using inarticulate references. Sorry.


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

imeasyee said:


> Yes I do see your point and was confirmed by the post after yours - I do like this forum besides the net movie channel this is the other most fun I have during my recliner time.





Logos said:


> I believe that someone would pass up a trophy whitetail just like I believe they'd pass up a roll of hundred dollar bills laying in the street.
> 
> On a lighter note......as the global warming and drought continue and increase, there will be plenty of land available in Florida and Texas.....so you're in luck.


I work mostly on the highway -- u would be amazed at how many wallets and credit cards non expired show up on the side of the road. To date ive called 6 owners of fully intake wallets turned in 8 unexpired credit cards called 7 owners of cell phones or family members listed in phone. Ive never found a roll of bills, loose 20$ on the highway I keep and change but the stuff I can return to the right person I do. 
I don't jump off bridges because everyone else does either.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh and Steve - since the ONLY way to age a buck is after it is dead and its teeth are examined - there is no way to know how old a buck is until after it is shot - such criteria is really silly - the only way we can reasonably judge the age of a buck when hunting is by antler and body size - my P&Y aged at 3.5 and that was one for the books - it all depends


3.5 - that is at least 1 year from being mature.
No different shooting that from a 1.5 spike - still not near it's potential and prime.
So young is bad but a little bit older is good?
OK - got it.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

going hunting have fun while you bicker I'll be playing with elk

Matt


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> This was part of it.... :grin:
> 
> And so we don't lose sight of what I posted...
> 
> ...



Thank you 

I'm sorry you took it that way. 

We are fine


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

slamnationalley said:


> I, personally, don't shoot young bucks. I will however cull a mature inferior buck to get him out of the gene pool. I have more friends than not who cannot control themselves when a deer gets in range and must shoot every antlered deer they see. I have lost a few friends due to them coming to hunt with me on my managed property and wacking a young buck instead of a doe. The rule is, if you're not willing to pay me $400 (I'm a taxidermist) to put it on your wall, then it had better still be walking. A buddy of mine has a $400 three point on his wall and no further invites to come back. But to each his own, dead deer don't grow.


I liked this post!


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> and there are enough Christian folks and others who would turn in a roll of found cash.... someone needs that money.... and God don't work that way.


Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jewish, Native American and a bunch of others and Atheists as well.

Thus ends the sermon for the day.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

slamnationalley said:


> I, personally, don't shoot young bucks. I will however cull a mature inferior buck to get him out of the gene pool. I have more friends than not who cannot control themselves when a deer gets in range and must shoot every antlered deer they see. I have lost a few friends due to them coming to hunt with me on my managed property and wacking a young buck instead of a doe. The rule is, if you're not willing to pay me $400 (I'm a taxidermist) to put it on your wall, then it had better still be walking. A buddy of mine has a $400 three point on his wall and no further invites to come back. But to each his own, dead deer don't grow.



I like your avatar and your post


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jewish, Native American and a bunch of others and Atheists as well.
> 
> Thus ends the sermon for the day.


Thank you for expanding the universe... I am a man of limited resources... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> Thank you
> 
> *I'm sorry you took it that way*.
> 
> We are fine


Hi... not sure I'm following the took it that way part, but all is well that ends well... :grin: :thumbs_up


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## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

J. Wesbrock said:


> If it's a legal deer and I want to shoot it I will do so, and I won't feel the slightest obligation to explain my actions to someone on the internet.


Thank you!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I wanna thank everybody..well?..most of ya...cause after reading through many of the hardline responses here?..i've gleened a new appreciation for my attempt at growing old gracefully. :laugh:

my father hasn't been able to draw a bow since i was but a teenager..and even though i was a state level fingers/compound shooter for many years?..i wasn't going to let that stop me from enjoying 17 years of hunting whitetail with modern gun in GA/AL with my father and God musta been looking out for us both because we managed to luck into some very fine leases from lumpkin and cuthbert, georgia too eufala, alabama..10 day hunts every year of it..from 1987-2004...and yeah..around the campfire?..all the mans men dreamed of nailing bullwinkle...and they'd all talk like they wanted to tag out "Big Boy"...and i did too for the first few years..but then the following realities set in of..

1. Despite the fact that this has been "my house" for well over 23 years?..it was made perfectly clear to me by my wife that our young daughters would NOT be traumatized by growing up in a home with dead animal heads hanging on the walls..and since it's my wife that made "my house" a "Home"?...i hadta step back and count my blessings that this was the same woman that didn't mind me bugging out-of-state for 2 weeks every one of 17 years to go hunting with my father while she was stuck home alone raising 3 babies turned young ladies...oh yeah..and when we hunted alabama?..through "Thanksgiving"....DEAL! :laugh:

2. Mounts are EX$PEN$IVE..especially when ya take into consideration the only place they'd be hung in my house would be the hot garage...where i'd be living if i added yet another $500 to my $2,500 annual hunting trips with dear old dad! :laugh: (right before christmas)

and finally?..

3. I don't care how long ya age'em or what ya marinade'em with..ain't no musky azz old buck that's ever gonna taste as good as some sweet young doe on the chubby side! :laugh: 

My last buck had 1/2 a rack, teeth worn down to nubs and blind in one eye....and it was more of a "mercy killing" than anything else and when the boys at the processing house asked me?...i had one word...

Sausage. :laugh:

and in this thread?...i'm getting one heck of a charge out of those who think that everyone else "just must" think just like they do! :laugh:

Cause i dang sure don't..and i'm thinking that's a good thing right about now! L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

A 3 1/2 year old Pope and Young Buck is a mature whitetail - and there is a big difference between shooting that and a spike - a spike is nowhere near as difficult to hunt as an animal that has survived at least two more hunting seasons - espcially when most bucks killed in the state are 1.5 year olds! And there is no way to tell the difference between a 3.5 year old 140 class buck and a 4.5 year old 140 class buck unless you know when the animal was born and have been observing it - that is why most all Quality Deer Management guidelines are based on antler size - not age.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ok - since some wanted to discuss this in a new thread - here goes.
> 
> Why would any experienced hunter kill small bucks?
> 
> ...


I get that this thread is more about whitetails and small-parcel lands than it is about western public-lands mulies, but I do have some thoughts on why _I_ shoot smaller bucks on occasion:

(1) In this state, we get one tag (per species)... *if* we're particularly fortunate. Trying to draw a big game tag here is like playing the SuperLotto. Lots of avid hunters go years between drawing even a single tag.

(2) All big game tags here are gender specific.

(3) Public lands comprise roughly 80-90% of the state; even the State and the Feds are exactly sure. Roughly a third of the private land is taken up by municipalities, and mostly by the Big Three: Las Vegas, Reno, and Carson City... and the occupants generally take a dim view of bowhunting within the city limits.

So: since I'm stuck with the gender and class of deer I happened to draw in any given season, and I'm much more focused on how it tastes than how it looks, I'd really prefer to get a young (mature) adult. Not a button, not a spike; mature, but not an ol' mossy-horn. The younger adults taste better, in my family's opinion, and taxidermy is not in my budget. So really, my priorities all boil down to: if there is any choice whatsoever, I'd definately pass on the Big Boys, in order to pack out a young adult.

Another factor: I've spent enough winters working around (not "on", but "around" :wink alfalfa fields to have a pretty good idea of the size (sheer numbers), age ranges, gender split, and general health of the mule deer population in this area, and I don't see much point in worrying about letting our bucks age-out; there's plenty of all categories.

On the other hand, if I'm not seeing the youngu'ns, and some 7/7 blunders in front of me, Grandpa's goin' down!

But that's just my approach, as applied to the local conditions; completely different farther East.


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

Well said Jinkster I always injoy your post no matter what subject


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## SD BowHunter (Sep 24, 2008)

Lank Thompson said:


> Look at the McChesney posts near the beginning. I was blown away as well.


Tell me about it! Some peoples children...lol


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

I have posted earlier on, and feel compelled to post again. Earlier I stated my intentions being mainly an Urban Hunter, with primarily a focus on population control. We do not see many big bucks around here, but they are most certainly around. They are the smart ones living in someone's backyard, being fed by someone in the neighborhood, living a cozy sheltered life, and are smart enough to avoid the few bow hunters around. I get reports, often, about the big 8,10, or 12 point sleeping in "the yard across the street". So, the culling of the herd will occur with mostly does, as many of the bucks I see are not legal shooters. 

Now that being said, I do have permission, at times, to hunt on other land. And I always ask what the landowner's rules/ intentions are. I will not shoot anything that I do not have permission to hunt. So, to qualify, my hunting is dependent on the circumstances of where I am hunting and what the goals of that hunting entail. But all is done by what the game commission and landowners define.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Gotta say I had more fun than you guys - couldn't close the deal but boy I got close.

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> going hunting have fun while you bicker I'll be playing with elk
> 
> Matt


BUT_BUT_BUT_BUT_BUT------------------Wait for MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeee, matttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Nice pic Matt. Getn after elk with my longbow is definitely my dream hunt. Speck


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Gotta say I had more fun than you guys - couldn't close the deal but boy I got close.
> 
> Matt


I can't count right off more than two elk, but is there one on the left top corner of the picture as well?

Cool.... would have loved to have been around "any animal" this afternoon.... :grin:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Spike and 2 rag horns herd bull was over the crest with15 or 20 cows he would come back and blow the little bulls out - no body thought much of the lost cow down in the ******


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Spike and 2 rag horns herd bull was over the crest with15 or 20 cows he would come back and blow the little bulls out - no body thought much of the lost cow down in the ******


a ****** is a gulch or ravine?

Cool afternoon.... thanks for the pictures... :grin:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ravine steep nasty sucker


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ravine steep nasty sucker


I looked it up.... coulees.... there are a lot of pics of them... christ the grand canyon could be a coulee.... :grin:


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

You ever had the meat from a young buck...it's fantastic! 

Like some have said already...with work and family, my hunting time is very limited. Sometimes I only get a few hours a weekend. If it walks in front of me and I have a tag...I am shooting it!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

cool pic Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Just a side note - I am almost completely convinced that all these guys on here complaining that big bucks taste bad have obviously never shot one or ate one - sort of like the guys who say that Bass taste like weeds - my uncle used to say that, one year I kept a Bass - usually I don't, and I cooked it up for him - without telling him what it was - I backed it like you would cod - and he thought it was delicious and was cod - I then told him it was a bass from the lake his cabin is on - he could not believe it. I then asked him if he ever actually ate a bass before this - and he then admitted that he never had because he was always told that they taste like weeds. I then informed him that that little white lie was spread by Bass anglers so that people would not keep them and just catch and release.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

youre wrong...again


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

grew up on the farm too. we NEVER butchered old bulls or cows for our consumption. just the the nice tender steers...and veal mmmmm

you havent had a good steak till youve had tender button buck you can cut with a spoon  










here's one of my trophy rooms....










:darkbeer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

now I am wrong because I don't taste a difference between big bucks and does - hmmm - ok then - I will keep eating and enjoying them


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## GRLost (Jul 11, 2012)

it should be only the person releasing the arrow's question, but if you shoot the little bucks, you don't have any big bucks 3 years later, and most people want the bigger bucks. And if your excuse is that you hunt for meat, remember that the bigger the deer, the more meat you will have.

And if you think older deer taste worse, it all depends on how you cook them!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I then informed him that that little white lie was spread by Bass anglers so that people would not keep them and just catch and release.


Same reason that all those reasons are given as to why people shouldn't shoot little bucks. Cuz the trophy hunters want more big ones around for them to hunt.

Same concept, same outcome. When you catch a bass and and eat it, you piss off the Bass anglers. When somebody shoots a little buck and eats it, they piss off the trophy hunters. 

It all has to do with personal agendas.

KPC


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Just a side note - I am almost completely convinced that all these guys on here complaining that big bucks taste bad have obviously never shot one or ate one -


Well, they may have shot one and then improperly cared for the meat (and/or improperly cooked it).

I've had deer from the deep woods and deer from farm country and I know for a fact that the farm country deer will taste a little better.

That "woods/farm" variation is about the only variation in venison if it's properly cared for and cooked.

All the other stories are myth.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Just a side note - I am almost completely convinced that all these guys on here complaining that big bucks taste bad have obviously never shot one or ate one


You know Ken statements like this are right up there with - there is no such thing as "instinctive" aiming - we have discussed the number of deer I have shot in my life so we won't go into that - I age them in a cooler just like you do beef cut trim and package it myself and yes I absolutely can taste the difference and yes I absolutely have shot big bucks - I have never told you how you aim so don't tell me how my taste buds work.

Just on a side note - a buck that makes the P&Y book ain't all that big - your top end in WI is high enough that if you are truly hunting mature whitetails you should be letting bucks in the 130s walk - I've done it - Can you????

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Nope - I would not let a 130 class buck walk. I know of literally hundreds of hunters in my area from my archery leagues and clubs and from buck contests and pools and the fact that my wife works at the only registration station in the area that I hunt - and very rarely are bucks taken bigger than 130 - this is not Buffallo county - this is vast expanses of public land.

Again - for the billionth time - I am not trying to force any specific guidelines on anyone - simply to encourage guys to leave the little buck fawns and small racked bucks go so they can grow into nice racked mature bucks - there is a vast difference between ENCOURAGE AND FORCE. 

As I have said before - one of the best memories of my life was shooting that P & Y buck - and I would like to see others have such an experience - especially one of my kids someday - and the only way that this can happen is if small bucks live long enough to grow into big bucks.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - anytime you are in Wisconsin and I have been lucky enough to shoot a big boy - I will fix you up loin from a doe and loin from the big ole buck and if you can tell me the difference - I will give you the meat from the one you like better - hows that -


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

btw - I don't age my meat - other than, when possible, hanging it outside if the temps are right for a day or so. I have already skinned and butchered deer the same day I shot them - i do this when it is below zero - if I don't the deer will be froze solid in a few hours. 

I do think that there is a difference in the tenderness of meat that is hung for a day or so compared to deer that are butchered right away - but I don't notice a difference in taste.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

also, I am not a picky eater - I eat just about anything - as my big belly can testify too


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

trapperDave said:


> youre wrong...again


Wow.... heavy rack..... wish the missuse had one of them....


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

TheScOuT said:


> *You ever had the meat from a young buck...it's fantastic*!
> 
> Like some have said already...with work and family, my hunting time is very limited. Sometimes I only get a few hours a weekend. If it walks in front of me and I have a tag...I am shooting it!


 No different than shoe leather.... :grin:


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

I have a question....if you're only shooting the biggest bucks, what bucks are doing the most breeding? Whichever way you want to hunt is fine with me....big buck or small buck.
I personally dont buy into this shooting the biggest buck thing. I shoot at whatever gives me the opportunity for a shot. In south Alabama on public land , my shots are not that often. I can honestly say I get just as excited with a shot at a doe as I do with a shot at a buck.

To each their own.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

The answer to that question is the dominate buck that is around or the buck that is in the right place at the right time  

Guys I'm pretty much done with this thread and I wish everyone luck in what ever they choose to harvest 

For me in this stage of my hunting life which has been in the same mode for the last 20 years, I try and take the most mature animal I can find 

I use all parts of the animal but I am primarily a trophy hunter so i dont mind if the meats a bit tough and many times have picked animals that would score less than a younger animal standing next to them because they where for me a greater trophy

For example one time on Stone Sheep hunt there where 5 rams in a band. All where legal but I choose the senior ram in the bunch that was broomed and batered over a younger ram that was longer that would have scored higher.

His teeth where badly worn and he probable would not have made the winter. To me that great monarch of the mountains was a true trophy. He had passed his genetics for many years and it was an honor for me to harvest the old gent

I have made decisions like this many times on Cape Buffalo, Rams , Sable etc. for me cutting something's life dramatically short is not my thing I am always looking for the best, as in most mature animal I can find. 

When it comes to deer if I would put it on the wall it's game on 

Everyone must make there own hunting decisions and there is no wrong or right way as long as its legal.

Good luck


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> The answer to that question is the dominate buck that is around or the buck that is in the right place at the right time
> 
> Guys I'm pretty much done with this thread and I wish everyone luck in what ever they choose to harvest
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, and when I'm going shell out $10,000 a trip plus a trophy fee.... I'm probably going to not look first off for ears to bloody my tag with. :grin:

Also... afterthought.. my trip to Africa will be with money to burn... but I've little to waste, so if it means I don't score in SCI's top 10, I'm not going to cry about it... and then too.... maybe I will start thinkin about ears again... :grin:


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Oh, sharp, I forgot to mention one point in my earlier post. Although I consider myself a more meat than horns oriented hunter, I passed on the one legal buck I saw this season: a scrawny li'l spike, weighing maybe 80 pounds on the hoof. This has been a very dry year out here; feed's thin; he'll be better in a couple-three years, and might just get something bred in between.

Point being, I guess my priorities are somewhat flexible... :tongue:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

every hunters priorities should be flexible to where they hunt, the condition of the herd, and the individual situation - I agree 1000000 percent with that. If I saw a wounded or injured small buck - as much as I would not want to use my buck tag on a little buck - I would tag that small buck. If the herd was in bad shape and I was not seeing or getting many pics of does - I would not shoot a doe, etc...


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## backwudz14 (Jan 4, 2011)

My first bow kill was a spike,not by choice ,but he was the first deer I had an opportunity to harvest.now i prefer to shoot does or a nice buck,but I am not just antlers based either.I try to harvest something I would be proud of.this week I passed up a doe with a yearling broadside @ 20yds because I do not have to kill to feel as if I am successful.my goal is to harvest a nice mature 3+ yr old buck but I will shoot mature does just the same.me personally I care nothing about shooting small bucks,I'd rather watch them in their natural state.some people shoot anything and they have the right to do so.if your enjoying yourself and the outdoors doing what you feel is right then that's what matters,but for me I let small bucks walk


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

I'm shooting any legal sized animal. I don't have the time to hunt like I did when I was a single man. Work and Family are my priorities. So I only get out a couple of times a year if I'm lucky. So whatever crosses my path and is legal to shoot, is what I'm after. When I had more time in the woods, then yes I was more selective.


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## mcharles (Nov 11, 2009)

In our family, if it's Brown, it's down.


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## hunting87 (Dec 18, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ok - since some wanted to discuss this in a new thread - here goes.
> 
> Why would any experienced hunter kill small bucks?
> 
> ...


where i hunt thats about all thats around th population is horrible and you have to shoot what you can.


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

Because I like to eat venison..killed this one sat. morning on public land with Big Foot recurve and Simmons Tree Shark broadhead.

Just happened to be the one that I got a shot at. Sometimes I pass small bucks sometimes I don't.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hoyt said:


> Because I like to eat venison..killed this one sat. morning on public land with Big Foot recurve and Simmons Tree Shark broadhead.
> 
> Just happened to be the one that I got a shot at. Sometimes I pass small bucks sometimes I don't.



Congrats 

Tell me about the Tree Shark 

Penetration ? Distance deer went ? Etc

I have some but have not tried them yet


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Hoyt said:


> Because I like to eat venison..killed this one sat. morning on public land with Big Foot recurve and Simmons Tree Shark broadhead.
> 
> Just happened to be the one that I got a shot at. Sometimes I pass small bucks sometimes I don't.


He might not be the biggest buck in the woods but he looks nice to me. I would have shot him too. Congrats...:thumbs_up


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## flywise (Jul 13, 2010)

My question would be.....*why do so many hunters think it's any of their business what or why someone shoots what they shoot?*
Most deer hunters will have a natural progression from if it's brown it's down to harvesting more mature deer at some point. *Even then, the trophy hunter will ask "why would you shoot that 3.5 when he would be huge at 4.5 or 5.5"* When this thing I do went from a heritage passed down from my father to a trophy sport was ruined for ever.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Flywise - go back and read my posts - I have never said it is any of my business what anyone shoots - I am simply trying to ENCOURAGE others to not shoot small bucks - just like some people try to ENCOURAGE you to vote for this crook or that crook - but that does not mean it is any of the business which crook you vote for or that they are trying to take away your "right" to pick a crook!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hoyt - that is a nice buck - congrats - nice hole too - holy cow - if they made those simmons in a lighter head I might consider them!


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Cant believe this post is still going on. Everyone bow down and just say sharpbroadhead is right and maybe it will die like the basket racks I shoot. Hoyt Nice buck. I cant wait to get out there im off the last week of Oct and the fist 2 of nov.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

good luck - you have the best days off possible for hunting - i hope you get a big one


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Wow sharbroadhead that is the nicest thing ive ever heard you say. But once again I dont believe ya. If you aint just yanking my chain thanks I hope you get a big one to.


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## flywise (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok.
But you must admit, anytime this question comes up there are plenty of folks ridiculing others for shooting young deer.
Typically, (maybe not in this case ) the person asking such a question will not except any reason for killing a young deer. It's always, kill a doe instead. Where I live, a deer is not going to make it to 5-6 years old. I have hunted my current lease for 25 years. I have killed about 7 bucks a total of about 12 bucks have been killed on this 600ac. Now you would think I'd see several 5-6+ y/o deer but I never have seen one. So, why kill young deer....because there ain't any old ones


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## metoo (Sep 18, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I don't usually do this - but I am going to say this with 1000000000000% confidence - any hunter who claims he places no different value on a big buck verses a fawn or small buck is full of it.


Hello, my name is Fulluv It. Well, actually I do place a differenc value. The smaller one is more valuable to me. You may say I don't count since I've never even made an attempt at deer hunting yet, but I will one day (I'm really in it for the pigs). I do know that when I do, if there are two bucks in front of me at the same time...one that looks like the king of the forest and the other just doe-size, I'm aiming for the smaller, more tender, easier to drag back deer. I'll leave the trophy there for someone who cares or for nature walkers to enjoy seeing. The longer I leave him out there, the more does he can knock-up with his good genetics.

You may still say, I'm full of it, but I do the same when fishing. Sure I have redfish tags to take home a large one, but I rather keep the ones just over legal for eating and enjoy the fight of the large ones and take pictures. The smaller ones are better eating anyway. Larger Trout, larger black drum...all go back. Flounder?... that's a different story.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Obviously, there is such a thing as bragging rights.

That's what this thread (and the other spinoffs) is about.

Normal people brag about shooting a really big buck.

A few (struggling to achieve a special identity) try to brag about NOT WANTING a big buck.

So I turn to today's lesson........from Ecclesiastes:

1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8 All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

:amen:

Go in peace.


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

I hunt big bucks but don't have them falling out of my pockets. Deer meat is important to me to be able to hunt as much as I do it helps a lot with the food bill not to have to buy red meat. Therefore the first thing I'm trying to do is fill the freezer. I've hunted every day since the season opened Oct. 1 at least in the morning or afternoon...most days both. I've seen one little doe to far for shot and one buck I killed. Last season I saw deer about every sit and one morning actually counted 55 deer walking by my stand. This yr I haven't figured it out. I hunt open public land only and will shoot whatever is legal except fawns or does with fawns until I can get enough meat for the yr. After that I will pass on small bucks if any buck tags left. That's just the way I hunt.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is a cool vid that my cousin Sam sent me that shows just what happens if you let them walk









Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

awesome video - note also when the big buck is next to the little buck - so much for the "I hunt meat - not horns" crowd - that big guy had twice as much meat as the little fork.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Because the pursuit of "trophies" is going to be the death of hunting for most folks. This "version" of what it is to be a hunter is what drives every inch of land to be leased, every hunt on areas to cost thousands of dollars. I hunt. I take what ever God sends my way and am dang glad to be able to do so and will NOT be looked down on by those who think themselves better when all they are is misguided.


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## RUTTING BULL (Oct 19, 2008)

When I hunt with my recurve I will shoot the first LEGAL buck I feel gives me a clean ethical shot. It's simple. If a person is a trophy hunter fine. But don't tell me I can't shoot a legal deer. If it was so bad than it would be illegal right?


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

How in the hell can one turn this into a Bible lesson on how to be vain and abnormal. If I wwanted to be preached to I would go to church-- and I really don't show up here to be preached to or talked down to-- I will never be like you following the masses weather its deer hunting or reading a book. I don't jump off bridges just because someone else's does or the very least needs to. I'm not vain but what I am is me-- and the me in me does not allow for -- just because u said it makes it so. Bragging rights for what something you kill are you serious.it all sounds like penis envey to me. So your deer is bigger than mine hgara?that's short for who gives a rats ass. Just maintain your preaching amonkust your self not everyone wants to hear it,read it on a deer hunting forum trophy or not.and I'm pretty sure God don't think I'm vain just cause I don't shoot or care about what u shoot-- so how about you give me the same curtiousy and not call me abnormal or vain.


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

Wgara not hgara
and by the slight chance you weren't calling me vain or abnormal I apolgise --and if u did - I was civial I could of written a I got banned reply for sure--


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## imeasyee (Apr 10, 2012)

Ok I went back and read some of your post-- I jumped the string. For that I am sorry. I apologise. I am still me though- neither a braggot or vain-- and have never followed the well beaten path- and would not consider my self normal by mainstream standards nor does the mainstream. So the chances of me havering the same views as the majorty--- are slim to none. That includes large mature Bucks that by majority standards would be a trophy. It doesn't bother me that someone some where will shoot that Buck--- why does it bother those because I wont-- our deer herds have been managed into massive herds if you haven't noticed why do you think there Beding down in back yards and parks and easements? Running out of space in the woods. Deer are like bass pull a big bass from a hollow log and there will be another to take its place. No I don't keep mature breeding size bass either.and I don't think deer or bass are as smart as humans give them credit for. 
Any way sincerely sorry for the jump back--


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