# Hornet's Creep Tuning Process



## dkkarr

Thanks Hornet!


----------



## link06

dkkarr said:


> Thanks Hornet!


X2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Hornet, I am a believer in creep tuning the cam and a half systems as you have stated. The more I think about it, is it affecting timing or nock point or both. Say you hit high when burying the stop, you need to twist up the cable going to the top cam, which makes it rotate slightly and thereby moving the nock point up. Would just a nock point change produce the same result? Is this micro tuning nock point or am I over thinking it?


----------



## dwagoner

Alpha Burnt said:


> Would just a nock point change produce the same result? Is this micro tuning nock point or am I over thinking it?


no because if you simply move nock point and re-shoot both ways you will still have 2 arrows that dont hit that horizontal line. it is the fine tuning of the cam draw stop sync (not cam timing as thats static position) that your doing with creep tuning.


----------



## Brown Hornet

Alpha Burnt said:


> Hornet, I am a believer in creep tuning the cam and a half systems as you have stated. The more I think about it, is it affecting timing or nock point or both. Say you hit high when burying the stop, you need to twist up the cable going to the top cam, which makes it rotate slightly and thereby moving the nock point up. Would just a nock point change produce the same result? Is this micro tuning nock point or am I over thinking it?


Your not adjusting your nocking point like you think unless some how your shooting off the cable :wink: 

Your adjusting the cam rotation/timing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Brown Hornet

ttt


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Okay, I just thought, say for instance, the top cam and cable. When you tighten the cable it should ever so slightly move the cam counterclockwise and the string should move with it slightly. Was just curious. Thanks.


----------



## dwagoner

with your pse hybird when you shorten control cable yes it will rotated cam and nock very slightly UP, shortening control will move stop away from string as if its hitting little to early


----------



## Brown Hornet

ttt.... just in case someone needs it :wink:


----------



## Rack101

Nice thread!!!


----------



## Notvaporlocked

Thread marked


----------



## Green River

Quote from Hornet -"If your bow is in perfect time all your shots will hit the line. If the shots fired while pulling hard into the cams hit high, add a 1/2 twist to the control cable. If the shots fired while pulling hard into the cams hit low apply a 1/2 twist to the buss cable." 

Hey Hornet I have a question.
Lets say my arrows hit low while pulling hard into the wall, why not remove 1/2 twist from the control cable instead of adding 1/2 twist to the buss cable and vice versa? I use the Javi method and have always used the control cable to time the cams.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Brown Hornet said:


> I have NEVER put a bow I am setting up in one and probably never will. I set all of mine by hand or use a mirror. So it isn't a must to use a drawboard.


OMG! NEVER USE A DRAWBOARD! Dang! You'll get crucified! Oh well, you'll be in good company 

(me just had ta)


----------



## Brown Hornet

Green River said:


> Quote from Hornet -"If your bow is in perfect time all your shots will hit the line. If the shots fired while pulling hard into the cams hit high, add a 1/2 twist to the control cable. If the shots fired while pulling hard into the cams hit low apply a 1/2 twist to the buss cable."
> 
> Hey Hornet I have a question.
> Lets say my arrows hit low while pulling hard into the wall, why not remove 1/2 twist from the control cable instead of adding 1/2 twist to the buss cable and vice versa? I use the Javi method and have always used the control cable to time the cams.


You can do that...I tend to do which ever gives me the feel I am looking for in the draw cycle. Once I get a certain cam rotation and draw cycle I like I tend to actually play with the control more then I do the buss actually. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Brown Hornet

SonnyThomas said:


> OMG! NEVER USE A DRAWBOARD! Dang! You'll get crucified! Oh well, you'll be in good company
> 
> (me just had ta)


I got the nails so nobody needs to bring them :wink: I have no need for one really. I have an arrow to measure my dl...it doesn't need to be spot on perfect since no two bows will be DEAD on the same...heck I shoot a different dl indoors then I do outdoors. Cam timing I get close and then...well see the 1st post in the thread :wink: 

Set the bow up to the shooter...if you need a draw board to check timing....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Was out playing around today, is 1" difference at 20 yards enough to try and adjust for?


----------



## Brown Hornet

A 1" difference for ME would be huge....I want the arrows smacking together at 20 yds. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wvbowhunter77

Marked


----------



## Joe Pf

What is the creep tuning procedure for my Vantage LTD with Accuwheels and a valley? Any other tuning tips for the Accuwheel bows? I've searched, but everything seems to be for the cams. I also have a Cam&1/2 and the tuning tips here made a huge difference.
Thanks in advance.
Joe


----------



## Brown Hornet

It is pretty much the same process with accu wheels. You just have two cables so you adjust whichever cable you need to adjust. 

Creep tuning was original done and the process developed on dual cam bows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## srcarlso

I just creep tuned my bow this weekend once I turned it up to 70# for 3D. Found my creep tune at 60# was different than at 70#...just needed 1/2 twist on the Buss to get it perfect. Like Hornet said, my top cam hits in advance of my bottom peg but the creep is good and the wall is rock hard. Definitely worth the effort.


----------



## SonnyThomas

For my Hoyts and Martins I've always done pretty much what you have, BH. That regular creep tuning to me just told me the timing was off. It just seems I've always gone by the bottom cam and correct the top. Of course, for the Hoyt Cam & 1/2 the positive stop is out in the open on the bottom cam. So shooting the line is my timing tune up and it might be 20 yards, but I often go back to 30 yards - I can do it inside, no wind, no varying light.

BUT! The cam groove for the cable isn't as easy to see on both the Hoyt Cam & 1/2 or the Martin Catcams (Nitro, Hybrid or whatever Martin chooses to call them).

And then I got the Pearson MarXman. There are no cable grooves, only a tab (tang or finger) and right out in the open. You could actually use a feeler guage if you wanted. And then a positive stop for each cam.

Say what they say, even at 80% letoff there ain't much of a valley. You ease up and the bow is in the "
want to go" mode. For me, timed to see, the Legend cams don't seem to like that bit of advancement of the top cam.

Right now, (when) I do what I'm supposed to do and what I'm aiming at gets nailed.

Blue being the adjustable positive draw stops. Red being them little tab thingies  And I have a supply of lined targets - I use a level to level them for either horizontal or vertical. Be surprised at the number of people see the lined targets and shoot H___ out of them. It'd be even better if they knew how to use them 

So, BH, what are you're thoughts?


----------



## Brown Hornet

Hell if I know...I don't like those kind of cams :chortle: 

I imagine though you could pull off a creep tune if you try it...I remember when the cam & 1/2 cam out back in 2003 or so and everyone swore you couldn't creep tune them. :wink:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mag41vance

So this isn't a process for Single cam bows?


----------



## Brown Hornet

Good thing you took a bite of the apple. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bowtecha

Good thread bh!


----------



## rick prather

SonnyThomas said:


> For my Hoyts and Martins I've always done pretty much what you have, BH. That regular creep tuning to me just told me the timing was off. It just seems I've always gone by the bottom cam and correct the top. Of course, for the Hoyt Cam & 1/2 the positive stop is out in the open on the bottom cam. So shooting the line is my timing tune up and it might be 20 yards, but I often go back to 30 yards - I can do it inside, no wind, no varying light.
> 
> BUT! The cam groove for the cable isn't as easy to see on both the Hoyt Cam & 1/2 or the Martin Catcams (Nitro, Hybrid or whatever Martin chooses to call them).
> 
> And then I got the Pearson MarXman. There are no cable grooves, only a tab (tang or finger) and right out in the open. You could actually use a feeler guage if you wanted. And then a positive stop for each cam.
> 
> Say what they say, even at 80% letoff there ain't much of a valley. You ease up and the bow is in the "
> want to go" mode. For me, timed to see, the Legend cams don't seem to like that bit of advancement of the top cam.
> 
> Right now, (when) I do what I'm supposed to do and what I'm aiming at gets nailed.
> 
> Blue being the adjustable positive draw stops. Red being them little tab thingies  And I have a supply of lined targets - I use a level to level them for either horizontal or vertical. Be surprised at the number of people see the lined targets and shoot H___ out of them. It'd be even better if they knew how to use them
> 
> So, BH, what are you're thoughts?


good case for draw board,huh Hornet?


----------



## SonnyThomas

rick prather said:


> good case for draw board,huh Hornet?


Like Hornet, I've never used a draw board per sa. Useful tool that it is, it sure seems a lot of shop don't have them. In all reality I use Hornet's procedure, just do it by calling it something else. It works, it works.


----------



## Brown Hornet

rick prather said:


> good case for draw board,huh Hornet?


I have never set up a bow using one...and sure wont use one for my bows. Get it close or right and then draw it back with your stabs on there and your hand in the bow and the timing probably isn't going to be the same :wink: 

Creep tuning will tell you what you need. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stoz

Marked


----------



## wpod

mag41vance said:


> So this isn't a process for Single cam bows?


Curious about the answer to this

Sent from my VS950 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## mmiles1

Can you creep tune a drive cam?


----------



## ArcherXXX300

Tagged.


----------



## Madlaz

Tagged for reference


----------



## clbrown23

marked


----------



## Buckshutr

tagged


----------



## TAYLOR CO.

Good thread


----------



## Wack'EM

Tagged


----------



## shot thru

How does this apply to a binary cam system?


----------



## nuts&bolts

shot thru said:


> How does this apply to a binary cam system?


Simple. TOP cam on a binary. You have TWO cable end loops. PICK one.



Top cam, and pick the end loop FARTHEST away from the top axle. LEAVE bottom cam completely alone. FIRE a BARESHAFT first at 20 yards, and sight in so your BARESHAFT nails the TOP edge of the masking tape. NOW, when you have sighted in your BARESHAFT to NAIL the top edge of the tape, then NO TOUCHING the sight, fire a fletched arrow. You want THIS result.



So, somebody asked WHY is the bareshaft in the x-ring, and WHY is the fletched all the way over to the LEFT of the target? ANSWER. I like my pin nocks to stay in one piece. BAck to that ONE end loop, the cable end loop on the top cam, FARTHEST away from the top axle. WHAT do you do with that ONE end loop? ADD or REMOVE half a twist, to make ONE cable longer or slightly shorter, on PURPOSE, until you can get the FLETCHED and bareshaft to NAIL the top edge of the tape, 20 yards away.

THEN, you get this result...with all FLETCHED arrows.


----------



## shot thru

nuts&bolts said:


> Simple. TOP cam on a binary. You have TWO cable end loops. PICK one.
> 
> 
> 
> Top cam, and pick the end loop FARTHEST away from the top axle. LEAVE bottom cam completely alone. FIRE a BARESHAFT first at 20 yards, and sight in so your BARESHAFT nails the TOP edge of the masking tape. NOW, when you have sighted in your BARESHAFT to NAIL the top edge of the tape, then NO TOUCHING the sight, fire a fletched arrow. You want THIS result.
> 
> 
> 
> So, somebody asked WHY is the bareshaft in the x-ring, and WHY is the fletched all the way over to the LEFT of the target? ANSWER. I like my pin nocks to stay in one piece. BAck to that ONE end loop, the cable end loop on the top cam, FARTHEST away from the top axle. WHAT do you do with that ONE end loop? ADD or REMOVE half a twist, to make ONE cable longer or slightly shorter, on PURPOSE, until you can get the FLETCHED and bareshaft to NAIL the top edge of the tape, 20 yards away.
> 
> THEN, you get this result...with all FLETCHED arrows.


Not saying this won't work but how does substituting a bare shaft accomplish the same objective as changing how hard you pull into the wall or "creep"?


----------



## nuts&bolts

shot thru said:


> Not saying this won't work but how does substituting a bare shaft accomplish the same objective as changing how hard you pull into the wall or "creep"?


unless you are shooting wheel cams, you don't shoot in the middle of the valley, and you don't "CREEP" forwards when making a shot. Pull firmly into the wall. Shoot your normal shot. Then, what the bareshaft does, is it tells you how much to CHANGE your cam sync, speed up the cam, slow down the cam, whatever it takes to make your fletched arrows hit at the EXACT same height (20 yards away). Then, switch to all fletched arrows, and see how much TIGHTER your groups are now.


----------



## hrtlnd164

Just my opinion but this method is best suited for hybrid systems and cable stops. It is a balancing act on how much pressure is applied to each cable as you pull into the wall.. I do not agree that you can transfer this to a limb stop Binary system.


----------



## hrtlnd164

To expand on my above post:
When you pull into the wall at varying rates on a Hybrid/cable stop system, one cam is rolling more than the other due to the buss and control cables being under different rates of load. This is the balancing act you are trying to correct with the Creep Tune. With limb stop binary systems, pulling into the wall at varying rates does not allow the cams to rotate at different rates. It's all about cam sync/timing on this system. So depending on the system- this method may not transfer from system to system.


----------



## TNMAN

Creep tuning has nothing to do with bare shaft impacts, imho. Mixing apples and orangutans. Creep tuning is best accomplished just as the Hornet said.


----------



## Bigallyoutdoors

Joe Pf said:


> What is the creep tuning procedure for my Vantage LTD with Accuwheels and a valley? Any other tuning tips for the Accuwheel bows? I've searched, but everything seems to be for the cams. I also have a Cam&1/2 and the tuning tips here made a huge difference.
> Thanks in advance.
> Joe


----------

