# Another form post, but I have a question too



## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I recently purchased a 2013 pro comp elite with 28" spiral x cams. The draw felt a little long so I made a very short loop. I shot my best Vegas score of 297/21x just a few nights ago with this set up. But, the longer I shot, the longer my draw length started to feel. So I looked around and found 27.5" spiral x cams and have sent the money for them already. But before I make the switch I wanted some of you coaches to take a look at pictures. I am enclosing pictures of me at full draw head to toe. I also used two bows...my pro comp with 28" and the short loop, and then my phenom at 27.5. I also used my HBC release for one picture with each bow (brass) and then my stan shootoff (black) for a second picture. So did I make the right choice ordering the new spirals? And since this is here, how's my form?


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I guess, more importantly, I'm looking for draw length critique. Thanks guys


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## V Chen (Nov 30, 2014)

The best way to look at draw length is from the side. Take a photo of yourself from behind your elbow so that the camera is facing the target. Your forearm should be aligned with the shaft of the arrow if you are at full draw.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

V Chen said:


> The best way to look at draw length is from the side. Take a photo of yourself from behind your elbow so that the camera is facing the target. Your forearm should be aligned with the shaft of the arrow if you are at full draw.


I should be able to post pictures from behind as well as from above here in the next hour or so. Thank you


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

The first three pictures are with the pro comp at 28" w/ the very short loop. The last three are of the phenom.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Phenom


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Before you get too wrapped up in changing your DL, work on settling your shoulders down after reaching full draw. If you do this, your current DL may just be right or just a little off. Here's a video that explains what I'm talking about:


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

montigre said:


> Before you get too wrapped up in changing your DL, work on settling your shoulders down after reaching full draw. If you do this, your current DL may just be right or just a little off. Here's a video that explains what I'm talking about:


I've worked on this. I draw with my bow arm already extended and my bow shoulder "set". And I always mentally tell myself right before I anchor to get my release shoulder down. I've even reduced draw weight to almost the minimum for the bow so I can more easily get/keep my shoulders down. Maybe the longer I shot with now having more holding weight from the pro comp, that as I tired the first thing to go was my shoulders therefore making the draw length feel longer? In a second I will take a picture of my d-loop just to show you how short I had to make it just to have my length not feel too long, this is the biggest reason I ordered the new spirals.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

My current loop length


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ta2guru13 said:


> I recently purchased a 2013 pro comp elite with 28" spiral x cams. The draw felt a little long so I made a very short loop. I shot my best Vegas score of 297/21x just a few nights ago with this set up. But, the longer I shot, the longer my draw length started to feel. So I looked around and found 27.5" spiral x cams and have sent the money for them already. But before I make the switch I wanted some of you coaches to take a look at pictures. I am enclosing pictures of me at full draw head to toe. I also used two bows...my pro comp with 28" and the short loop, and then my phenom at 27.5. I also used my HBC release for one picture with each bow (brass) and then my stan shootoff (black) for a second picture. So did I make the right choice ordering the new spirals? And since this is here, how's my form?


LET your results guide you.

Example.



Maitland Zeus.
OUT of production VTR cam system.
Maitland is also out of business.

Zeus 2nd Generation.

29-inch draw length modules.

bow is in spec.

Arrow rest is pointed DEAD straight ahead.
NOT crooked left...NOT crooked right.

Cam lean is set to ZERO at full draw.

BASIC.

ONE stabilizer, no side rod.
Limbdriver Elite drop away.

So,
SHOOT groups at 20 yards.

HERE are my results, with the bow IN SPEC, for draw length.



So,
I do my draw length test.

WHY did I design a draw length test?
SO, you guys can figure it out on your own.

FIRE a bareshaft
that means an arrow with NO vanes,
with NO tape,
with NO base of vanes remaining behind
cuz we want ZERO airflow disturbance.



So,
to be cLEAR...

the FLETCHED arrows, I aimed at the middle...
the BARESHAFT arrow, I also AIMED AT THE MIDDLE.

The BARESHAFT missed to my LEFT.

THIS means,
cuz I am a right handed shooter,
the draw length on the bow, IN SPEC
is not correct.

I'll let you GUESS what direction.

So,
I adjust the draw length OUT OF SPEC,
that's right

I ADJUST the draw length OUT OF SPEC by 1/4-inch.

BUT
BUT
BUT
fixed draw length cams are ONLY available in 1/2-inch sizes.

sigh.
YES, I know that.

BUT
BUT
BUT
draw length modules are only available in 1/2-inch sIZes.

YES,
I know that as well.

THEN,
it CANNOT be done.

SIGH.

YES it can.



RESULTS based tuning.

THIS is what happened
when I adjusted the draw length 1/4-inch.

BUT
BUT
BUT

bareshaft missing to the LEFT or RIGHT
is a SPINE/SPLINE issue.

I read that on ARcheryTalk,
so IT must be TRUE.

Sigh.
Not really.





EARLY in your tuning,
do NOT yoke tune...not yet.

EARLY in your tuning,
do NOT move the arrow rest CROOKED LEFT or CROOKED right.

EARLY in your tuning,
do NOT do the STABILIZER tuning..NOT yet.

JUST play with draw length
to the 1/4-inch.

YES
the TIGHTER group is HIGH and RIGHT.

DO NOT TOUCH your arrow rest.

I REPEAT.
DO NOT TOUCH your arrow rest.

ONLY move sight elevation and windage.



NO tape measures.
Just common sense.

NO lasers...
Just common sense.


NOW,
do your group tuning at 50 yards or 60 yards.
NOW,
do your stabilizer tuning at 50 yards or 60 yards.
NOW,
do your yoke tuning at 50 yards or 60 yards.

What happens after you STABILIZER tune,
with a side rod, to TORQUE tune the system?

THIS happens.




So,
the How's My Form photos are fun for me to analyze,
but...

it's time to learn how to do some analysis
by yourselves.

Ultimately
a BULLET hole through paper is only a STARTING point.

At some point,
you gotta shoot arrows at a target
and JUDGE your results.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ta2guru13 said:


> My current loop length


D-loop length
and DRAW LENGTH For the bow
are two VERY VERY different things.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ta2guru13 said:


> My current loop length


Another example.



This is RCR.

He sent me a photo.

WHAT do you see?
WHAT would you recommend, based on this ONE photo?

With MY system,
I don't need any other photo. THIS one view is just fine.

Sooo,
WHAT do you see?

Do you see what I see?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
I do my analysis, with this ONE photo.

Here is the AFTER photo.



Based on my analysis,
I made ONE recommendation.

Can you see the change?

What do you think about the change?

Is a photo, an AFTER photo enough?

NEVER.

ALWAYS test the results of the "change".


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

HERE is the TEST result.



BIG DEAL?

ONE hole.

Well,
that is ONE hole
where RCR fired ONE arrow
hung up the bow...

returned to the shooting line,
and fired his ONE arrow again
hung up the bow

returned to the shooting line
fire his ONE arrow again...

30 shots.

ONE hole.

RCR is now happy.

See how this works?

LEARN the effects
the WHY of d-loop tuning
and YOU may learn the benefits as well.

D-loop tuning
and
bow DRAW length tuning
have DIFFERENT effects.

The d-loop length CONTROLS the FOREARM angle...the RELEASE side forearm angle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ta2guru13 said:


> I recently purchased a 2013 pro comp elite with 28" spiral x cams. The draw felt a little long so I made a very short loop. I shot my best Vegas score of 297/21x just a few nights ago with this set up. But, the longer I shot, the longer my draw length started to feel. So I looked around and found 27.5" spiral x cams and have sent the money for them already. But before I make the switch I wanted some of you coaches to take a look at pictures. I am enclosing pictures of me at full draw head to toe. I also used two bows...my pro comp with 28" and the short loop, and then my phenom at 27.5. I also used my HBC release for one picture with each bow (brass) and then my stan shootoff (black) for a second picture. So did I make the right choice ordering the new spirals? And since this is here, how's my form?


NEXT level of analysis.

SOME say
BIG DEAL.

*I can use a LONG neck release,
say a CALiPER head release
and a SHORT, SUPER DUPER SHORT d-loop
and make up the difference with a LONGER DL module, fixed DL cam...

to HIT MY ANCHOR.*

I can use a SHORT neck release,
say a HINGE, thumb button head release
and an EVEN SHORTER, CRAZY SHORT d-loop
and make up the difference with an EVEN LONGER DL module, fixed DL cam...

to HIT MY ANCHOR.

Ummm.
NO.

Won't work.

going to a SHORT neck release
does NOT allow you to use a LONGER draw length,
to hit "YOUR ANCHOR"...and maintain MAX accuracy.

When you use a SHORT neck release,
so you can move the nock of the arrow FURTHER BACK on your HEAD
so you can TRY and shoot a LONGER draw length on your bow...

WILL give you a HIGHER velocity miss.



KEEP the same anchor
and use the D-LOOP to compensate
for RELEASE NECK length.

Caliper Head release,
use a SHORTER d-loop.

SHORT neck release,
use a LONGER d-loop.

Sooo,
let's say you figure out WHERE the nock of the arrow needs to land on your head.

Then,
WHAT happens with a D-LOOP that is TOO LONG?



THIS is an exaggeration,
but you get the idea.

Bareshafts will miss to the RIGHT,
for rather
OBVIOUS reasons.


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## V Chen (Nov 30, 2014)

As Montigre pointed out, you do appear to not be fully relaxed with your shoulder. I would recommend working on a fully relaxed form.

As for your draw length question, you can clearly see that with your pro comp, you are over your draw length because your elbow is to the left side of your arrow and your forearm is pointed off to the right side of the arrow.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Looks like his front shoulder is up in all the photos and might pick up half an inch by getting his front shoulder down where it belongs. No cam change might be needed


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

tagged for later


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I ended up going ahead and switching to my 27.5" spirals. Was still having a problem...with my float...but then I realized the wobbling and shaking or unwanted movement started as soon as I told my brain to start through my release execution. I would hold like a rock until I told myself, "ok, now start to shoot". For some reason with my bt I would lose my hold as soon as I started to execute. So I started working with my thumb button, but shooting it like a back tension, no hammering. Last night I shot my first 300 on a Vegas face!! Super excited. Not the greatest x count but I got it done. 300-17x


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

My target! And this was with 2 ends for warm up


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