# Bare Shaft Tuning



## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

I just reduced the DW on my bow from 60# to 50# to alleviate shoulder symptoms. So, I’ve been re-tuning my bow and did some bare shaft tuning today at 15 yards. Porpoising was quickly corrected by adjusting the nock down a bit, but correcting for fishtailing is a totally different situation.

Equipment:
2008 60# Bowtech Commander, 27 ½” DL, 27 ½” Easton N-Fused 400 Axis arrows (9.0 gpi), 2” Blazers, 100gn tips.

Bare Shaft Tuning:
• BH, tiller, ATA, centershot, cam timing, drop away rest, and clearances are all to spec.
• Did not paper tune.
• For each test, 3 fletched and 2 unfletched arrows were shot.
• Fletched arrows impacted well on a vertical line.
• Bare shaft arrows were hitting about 4” to the left of the vertical line, indicating a stiff arrow, with the nock end level and to the right at about a 45° angle - really surprised at the angle of the arrow - can see the arrow fishtail during its flight, even at 15 yds.
• Continued testing resulted in the DW being increased all the way back to 60#, not what I wanted.
• Bare shafts were still impacting to the left 2”-3” with the nock severely to the right as before. 
• Reduced the DW back down to 50# - much more comfortable at this weight and I don’t get the shoulder symptoms.
• Then tried 125gn field points last night at 10 yds (indoor range) - impact was 2” left & the angle was not quite as severe as before, but still visually excessive. This would suggest things are about back to where I started, but a touch better with the heavier tips.
• Could try a weaker spine arrow, but the .400 is recommended by Easton, and I’d like to keep using the same arrows – I like the Axis and really don’t want to buy any more arrows.

Questions/Comments:
• Really surprised at the angle of impact – is this normal flight for a bare shaft (flying without control from the fletching), or is it all about the stiffness of the arrow?
• Is there an alternative to a weaker arrow?
• Do any of you have suggestions that might correct this situation? 

Thanks for your help.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

*Arrows are expensive!*

Try changing you point weight and see what happens. If it's a spine issue, it'll show up right now.

Best of luck to you.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

You may want to read Easton's "Guide to Arrow Maintenance and Tuning" which I think is a sticky on Tuning forum. How the arrow flys for you is much more important to what a table suggests. If you lower weight is only temporary, you can get another set of the same arrows, trim them longer for tune and them cut them to your regular length when you get back to the higher weight.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

bbjavelina: I changed from 100gn to 125gn - only a marginal improvement. Thanks for your help.

AKRuss: The Easton "Guide to Arrow Maintenance and Tuning" is what I've been using. I want to lower the DW to 50# as a permanent change. Getting older (pushing 68) and was getting shoulder symptoms witht he DW at 60#. Want to head off potential shoulder problems early rather than have to deal with them later. If I have to get weaker arrows I will, but only as a last resort. If I can effect a remedy with the 400 Axis arrows, that is my preference. Your suggestion to try some longer Axis arrows is a good sggestion, certainly something to consider. Thanks for your help.

Last night I did some paper tuning with both the fletched & unfletched arrows at 9'. Each resulted in a right nock tear of about 3/8"


Any other suggestions?


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## nomad11 (Apr 14, 2006)

Try moving your rest to the left (if you're a right handed shooter) 1/32, 1/16 or 1/8 or so. It should correct your right tear since you dont seem to have a 'y" yoke on the bow. As a combo...you can increase the draw weight while moving the rest to the left to find a balance you're comfortable with. The arrow is acting stiff..moving the rest left will reduce the tear, as will a slight increase in draw weight. Any luck?


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

nomad11: Thanks for your response. I was thinking of moving the rest left a touch to help correct the tear, but wondered how that might affect the fishtailing & centershot (the centershot is currently right on as determined by walk-back tuning).

As for the fishtailing with the left impact, I tried increasing the DW before, going from 50# (my preference) all the way back up to 60# (shoulder symptoms). Having done that. I'm not too optimistic that it will work this time. However, with a slight left move on the rest & a slight increase of the DW, perhaps that combination will improve the fishtailing??? I'll try this tomorrow.
Thanks for your help!


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

AA,

Your local shop probably sells .500 spine shafts as singles, and you may want to see if that helps.

I've used several flavors of shafts from Beman/Easton at 29"/50-52lbs. .400's are always quite a bit to stiff from most setups, and simply will not tune.


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## nomad11 (Apr 14, 2006)

AA - My suggestion to move the arrow rest to the left a bit (right handed shooter) was based on your note above that you got a 3/8" right tear with a bareshaft. Not sure what distance that was shot at...but 3/8" is not bad...something that could be corrected with a 1/8" or less movement of the rest to the left. I understand your concern regarding your centershot/walkback. If you're happy with the walkback then see what broadheads do and forget the paper...or move the rest, punch a good hole and see what a walkback says. As an aside - my experience to date says your walkback does also involve a level bubble and second axis, as well as having your sight dialed in. Its been interesting for me to fine tune the sights and have desireable walkback results. Said differently, your sights can misslead one to think they have or don't have a good walkback tune. My preference right now is to punch a good hole with a bareshaft, thru paper, at about 3-4yards...with that a walkback is pretty good if I do my part and broadheads hit the same spot well out past 30yards.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks for the responses.
Sighting in & walk back tuning has been enough for me in the past, but I notice the fishtailing now during flight, and that is a bad visual to me. Still working on adjustments. Have been away from the bow for a couple of days.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

I just picked up (3) Easton N-Fused 500 Axis uncut arrows hoping that these weaker spined arrows would solve the tuning problems I was having with the 400 Axis arrows after dropping the DW from 60lbs to 50lbs.

My normal arrow length is 27 1/2", but I made these 28" lg with the same fletching and same 100gn tips as the 400 spine 27 1/2" long Axis arrows. I hoped this would result in a weak arrow nock tear, expecting that I would have to cut them shorter as I paper tuned them.

However, after shooting the first (3) 500 arrows at a distance of 4'-5', I got the same 1/2" right nock tear as with the 400 arrows. This was NOT really what I was expecting.

My plan of action:

Shoot a bunch more 500 arrows to make sure my form is not causing this problem.
Shorten (1) of the 500 arrows to 27 1/2" lg, same as my 400 arrows, and see what this does. My concern is that shortening the arrow length will stiffen the arrow and worsen the right nock tear problem. But, hopefully with playing with the rest, this will show some improvement in the nock tear.
Once again ask you guys for your opinions. You've been helpful with your recommendations.

Thanks.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

When you anchor, do you have very much face contact on the string. Do you burry the string hard into the face? 

If you can't get it to paper tune, you won't get it to bareshaft tune. If adjusting the rest doesn't change the tear much or any, you have a problem elsewhere. Since you played with arrow spine, that eliminated that possiblity. You have 2 other main possibilities. One would be your grip, the other would be too much face contact on the string. I am assuming that your draw length is correct and the bow is set up properly. Let me know if this helps.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks for your response fletched.

I've not considered face contact. However, in addition to lowering the DW (for reasons stated above), I recently increased the let-off which increased the draw length from ~ 27 1/2" to ~ 27 3/4"-28" (???). This results in my anchor engaging further behind my jaw than before.

Prior to this let-off change I would have the space between two top knuckles on my index & middle fingers rest into the rear of my jaw. Now with the longer DL, the anchor is further back, but I felt I could see through the peep better as I didn't have to lean my head into the peep. The peep just seemed to come into place a bit better.

I'm not aware of more face contact "on the string". Frankly I hadn't given that any thought. So, I don't know what effect this may have on my shooting, but I'll certainly look into it.

Thanks for your comments.

Any other thoughts out there?


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

No facial contact on string except tip of my nose.

Tried some more arrows at 4-5'. Same results - 1/2" right nock tear. Incrementally moved the rest 1/8" to the left (at this point it visually looked way off center - center-shot really bad), with no improvement. Incrementally moved it 1/4" to the right from original location (again a really bad visual center-shot), with no improvement. This was done with bot the 500 arrows & the 400 arrows.

Repeated tests at 10 yd & got left nock tears, for both 500 & 400 arrows. Perhaps this suggests a correct location somewhere in between???

No visible indication of fletching contact on any arrow and it seems like my form/grip is OK. Very confusing to say the least.

Will try again. Not sure what to do except confirm everything again.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Ancient Archer said:


> I just picked up (3) Easton N-Fused 500 Axis uncut arrows hoping that these weaker spined arrows would solve the tuning problems I was having with the 400 Axis arrows after dropping the DW from 60lbs to 50lbs.
> 
> My normal arrow length is 27 1/2", but I made these 28" lg with the same fletching and same 100gn tips as the 400 spine 27 1/2" long Axis arrows.


I've used various 29"/.500 spine arrows from several 50lb bows at 29", including my Supertec rigged with a set of 66def limbs. I doubt that spine is an issue, even with 100gr tips. But I've also experienced chronic hi/lo/left/right nock from time, it's pretty frustrating. Up/down is usually cured with a slight modification to cam timing. Left/right sometimes requires a centershot adjustment that is atypical. Most of my bows are reasonably close to being true "centershot". The arrow is in the same plane at rest, with the center of the riser. But sometimes not. Try moving your rest 1/16" in or out from it's current position and see if that helps.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

TMan51 thanks for your comment.

After trying the above paper tuning with the 500 arrows, I've returned the rest to the best centershot I can establish. When looking from behind, the string, arrow C/L, sight pin, and center marks (marks are on masking tape placed on limbs) on each limb all loooked perfectly in alignment. Also, when using a "90° centershot device", the arrow C/L, both front & back is the same distance from the riser. The nock is set 1/8" above level, with the level initially set so the bottom edge of the arrow is level with the Berger holes. 

In the past I've adjusted the nock height to correct for a high/low tear. If adjusting the cam timing to correct for this, what adjustments should be made to the timing?

I should add that my bow has a "shoot through" that I like very much. It removes the side tension & torque on the cams that previously existed when I used the cable guard & slide. The shoot through works smoothly. The rest has been replaced with a Ripcord Code Red & the D-loop has been replaced with serving applied inside the D-loop, 4 turns above the nock & 8 turns below it.

So, since the 500 arrows don't seem to correct the right nock tear, it does not appear to be a spine problem. And since adjusting the rest either left or right doesn't correct the problem, I suspected it might be a form/grip problem. However, I've really focussed on a proper, relaxed grip and a surprise release using back tension, and that hasn't resolved the problem. I'm totally confused.


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

Have you tried adjusting your nocking point so the center of the arrow is centered in the berger hole ? I had a Hoyt give me fits unless I centered the shaft on the berger hole. 

Check out this thread - 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1097929&highlight=loop

Also...what you have going on inside that d loop ? Are those serving nocks ? You may be getting nock pinch. 

That drop away may not be giving you full clearance too. It may be clipping a vane. Any marks on the vanes ? And this is just a friendly question.......you are shootig with the odd vane up right ? Just checking....

How did the bow shoot before you added the shoot thru system ?


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

mikesmith66, thanks for your thoughtful questions.

Have you tried adjusting your nocking point so the center of the arrow is centered in the berger hole?:
I recently got the Ripcord Code Red & because the launcher arm is thicker with the molded rubber on it, I found I had to raise the rest higher than before so that there was some clearance beneath the launcher arm when it is in the down position. There is a paper thickness of clearance now between the arm & shelf. Also, with the BowTech shelf having a concave surface, the surface rises on either side of its C/L. So, when I set the centershot, it was slightly to the left of the shelf C/L which further added to the rest height setting. 

Also...what you have going on inside that d loop?:
Those are the "hollow" rubber nock points that came with a new BowTech string. I no longer have them on. I liked them, but feel the serving inside the D-loop prevents nock pinch better.

Are those serving nocks ? You may be getting nock pinch.:
Since those pictures were taken, the D-loop has been seved inside above & below the nock to prevent nock pinch. I learned this the hard way.

That drop away may not be giving you full clearance too. It may be clipping a vane. Any marks on the vanes?:
I've sprayed the fletching & the rest with foot powder to check for contact. No evidence of any contact.

And this is just a friendly question.......you are shootig with the odd vane up right?:
Yes, the cock vane is up & the nock was rotated to ensure clearance.

How did the bow shoot before you added the shoot thru system?:
I've been waiting for this question. In fact, the bow shot well. I was able to get bullet holes when paper tuning. I never tried to bareshaft tune before the shoot through (ST). The main reason for keeping the ST is that the cam axles were wearing prematurely when using the cable guard & slide. With the ST, the side torque from the cable on the cams has been removed and this has to help minimize, if not eliminate the torque.

Thanks for your help.


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

I think just for kicks, I'd try a different rest. Anything, just to see if the arrow behaved different. 

Have you layed an arrow down alongside the bow arm side of the top cam to see if it lays perfectly parallel to the string ? 

I honestly have never bare shaft with a compound. I set up my rest so that when I line up the string (while looking from behind the bow) with the center of the riser, I have the right edge of the arrow just on the left edge of the string. This is usually a good start pointing for me. Maybe a shade left or right adjustment is needed during walk back tuning, but that's about it. 

If I'm getting a stubborn right/left tear in paper, it's usually because my DL is either a shade to long or to short, causing me to either push the bow to much(to short) or pull the string off center of the cam track while at full draw (DL to long). If you can have a buddy stand behind you at full draw, he may be able to tell if your placing uneven left/right pressure on the riser or string at full draw. You want everything in a nice, straight line. 

Have you checked to see if your fletchings are clearing the cables on the shoot thru ?


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

I love bare shaft tuning, but admittedly have never tuned a bow with a shoot through system. Before you said that, my first inclination was cam lean but that should be a non issue with that ST. I haven't seen many new bows that won't take a fairly wide range of spines and bare shaft well. You usually need to be kind of far off base to see left/right from that. Since moving your rest in/out made no difference, and you've tried different spines, you think you've eliminated most grip torque, then something has to be causing your string to move from the right, to the left between full draw and brace during the release. Is your string stop too tight against your string?

Do you have any cam lean with that shoot through? If so then you are just chasing your tail IMO. I've found that in order to bare shaft I have to purposely remove all torque from my grip and shoot in a way that I normally would not. I do not relax my hand, I keep it firmly open and straight so the grip is resting on a small contact patch. Just for grins see if you can get straight nock travel like that.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Ancient Archer said:


> In the past I've adjusted the nock height to correct for a high/low tear. If adjusting the cam timing to correct for this, what adjustments should be made to the timing?


AA, reading through several years of articles and a couple books on this, plus my own tinkering, it comes down to both ends of the bow supplying energy equally through the thrust cycle. If the bottom cam finishes first, the top keeps traveling, and at the end of the cycle applies an up bias to the nock.

Tuning is taking a bow set to specs, and adapting it to the variations in equipment and style of the individual shooter. Grip style or technique, rest, dynamic spine, etc. If you shoot with a high wrist, or have "non-average" hands, you apply a different amount of pressure to the center of the grip, and so, to the upper or lower limb. That difference can be accomodated by changing the timing of the upper/lower cam (usually by a very tiny amount).

I swapped this approach many years back with a member at the time, JAVI, and after a couple exchanges he made the simple suggestion to add a turn to the bus, reset nock height to square, and see if it was better or worse. From there you can add another turn, or let one out of the control. It's worked well for may years and many bows.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks to all for your comments. I'm not ignoring you as I currently have a "plumbing" project going on at home that is taking longer than anticipated. I can't believe the price of copper piping & fittings.

As soon as I finish, I'll get back on the bow. I'll be trying your suggestions.


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## HoytBowHunter80 (Apr 23, 2009)

Your arrows are too stiff. Easton axis are usually on the stiff side. dropping from 60# to 50# will really exaggerate that. Going to a lighter point will make them even stiffer. Heavier point, little weaker, not enough to make a difference in your situation. I recommend gold tip 35/55 xt hunters. the will carry you from that 50# range right on up to 64 #'s give or take a pound or two. i also know that when you cut an arrow under 28" in length it gets stiffer than what the factory advertises. anything over 28" it gets weaker. Like starting off with a long pencil and breaking into smaller pieces, the shorter it gets, the tougher it is to break... the shorter your arrow gets, the harder it is to tune. I have fought this all my life. every bow i have had has been in the 27-28 inch draw range. Try cutting your bare shafts at 28 and then do your bare shaft tune.

Also, looking at the pics you posted, you have a lot of "stuff" at your nocking point. i recommend getting rid of the eliminator buttons and tying a loop by itself. With that commander you should tune up almost perfectly level with your button holes. maybe slightly nock high and a little to the inside of the riser being your arrows are going to be a little stiff having a shorter draw. try some Gold Tips and good luck. PM me if you try this and let me know how it goes.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

HoytBowHunter80 said:


> Your arrows are too stiff. Easton axis are usually on the stiff side. dropping from 60# to 50# will really exaggerate that. Going to a lighter point will make them even stiffer. Heavier point, little weaker, not enough to make a difference in your situation. I recommend gold tip 35/55 xt hunters. the will carry you from that 50# range right on up to 64 #'s give or take a pound or two. i also know that when you cut an arrow under 28" in length it gets stiffer than what the factory advertises. anything over 28" it gets weaker. Like starting off with a long pencil and breaking into smaller pieces, the shorter it gets, the tougher it is to break... the shorter your arrow gets, the harder it is to tune. I have fought this all my life. every bow i have had has been in the 27-28 inch draw range. Try cutting your bare shafts at 28 and then do your bare shaft tune.
> 
> Also, looking at the pics you posted, you have a lot of "stuff" at your nocking point. i recommend getting rid of the eliminator buttons and tying a loop by itself. With that commander you should tune up almost perfectly level with your button holes. maybe slightly nock high and a little to the inside of the riser being your arrows are going to be a little stiff having a shorter draw. try some Gold Tips and good luck. PM me if you try this and let me know how it goes.


Thanks for your helpful comments, they are all on target (no pun intended), and I believe I've previously tried what you have suggested. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get back to tuning due to a plumbing project that has taken longer than expected. Happens when the wife "checks in" to see how things are going, and then decides to "suggest" changes. I should be able to get back to tuning in a couple days. Back to your comments:


I did buy some .500 spine Axis arrows and cut them to 28" thinking I'd make them too weak & would then shorten them to stiffen them back to where they belong. Unfortunately, paper tuning results were the same as with the .400 spine, 27 1/2" Axis arrows.
Actually, I did remove the "extras" at my nocking point. This is an older picture. I only have the string loop with serving inside to prevent nock pinch. Nothing else is on the string.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Well, today I had the day to myself and was able to work on the bow. I decided to start over from scratch. I took all the measurements, made adjustments if necessary to retain specs, reset the nock, confirm the cam timing, and did an initial paper tune with the 400 spine fletched & unfletched arrows, and the 500 fletched arrows as well. I've put all the data on a Word doc for future reference. Here are the data and test results. The angle of the bare shafts are not as severe as before. However, the nock tears are still troubling. With the nock tears similar with both the fletched 400 & 500 arrows being very similar, I'm questioning my form. Yet, I was very focused on good form and a good grip when releasing the arrow, which came off as a surprise each time. I obviously have some work to do!

SET UP:
Bow 2008 Bowtech 60 lb. Commander Testarossa
Cams CPK
Cam Modules	CPK-5
Bowtech string & Cables (both are replacements)
Arrows Eastern N-fused 400 Axis 27 ½” and Eastern N-fused 500 Axis 28”
Rest Ripcord Code Red
Release	Carter Chocolate Addiction
Peep 1/16” (target) & 1/8” (for hunting)

ATA 37 7/16”
BH 8 3/64” to C/L of string
Tiller Top	6 23/32” to C/L of string
Tiller Bot	6 23/32” to C/L of string
Centershot	Same distance from riser, both at string C/L & at arrow C/L 8” ahead of riser.
Rest Height	At nock level, bottom of arrow even with C/L of Berger holes
Nock Set	1/16” above center
DL 28”-28 1/8” (distance bowstring to throat of grip + 1 ¾”)
DW 50 lbs.

COMMENTS:
•	No visible cam lean
•	Bowstring & cables thoroughly waxed
•	Nock fits well on string. Snaps on, but doesn’t affect arrow when twisting bowstring.
•	Bowstring served with #62 Braided Serving (.021).
•	Cam timing “at rest” (not drawn) has 3rd dot on each cam even with outside surface of limb.
•	Cam timing at full draw has last dot on each cam “tangent” to where string comes off cam and when looking through the cam timing holes, cable at each cam has the cable centered “visually” through the 4th holes.

PAPER TUNE:

Distance: Bow hand 5’ from paper

Results from 400 Axis arrows 27 ½”:
Fletched #1	Low Right nock tear (5/8” right, 1/8” low)
Fletched #2	Low Right nock tear (5/8” right, 1/8” low)
Fletched #3	Low Right nock tear (1/2” right, 1/8” low)

Results from 400 Axis arrows 27 ½”:
Bare Shaft	Low Left (7/8” point entry on left/tear to the right, 1/8” low)
Bare Shaft	Low Left (7/8” point entry on left/tear to the right , 1/16” low)

Results from 500 Axis arrows 28”:
Fletched #1	Right nock tear (5/8” right)
Fletched #2	Right nock tear (1/2” right)
Fletched #3	Right nock tear (5/8” right)

Distance: Bow hand 10’ from paper

400 Axis:
Fletched #1	Low Right nock tear (1” right, 1/8” low)
400 Axis:
Bare Shaft	Low Right nock tear (1 ½” right, 1/8” low)

500 Axis:
Fletched #1	Right nock tear (1 ¼ ” right)


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*Hello Ancient Archer*

I have some similar circumstances as to age and shoulders and tuning an 06 Bowtech Constitution. Try as I might there was consistently a high right tear with a 500 spine Easton Lightspeed at 27.5" and a 80 grain glue in. Draw weight 50#. The Conni has the LE speed cam. I have given up on dropaway rests as its nearly impossible to tune them for vertical irregularities and instead use a rest with either a blade. with different gauge blades available for tuning, or better yet a rest with adjustable spring tension. 

My bottom line was changing spine, which I see you have tried. The 500 Light Speeds with the 80 grain point showed a little stiff on the OT2 scale and the current arrow, a 400 spine Gold Tip Ultra Lite Pro with 80 grain glue in is pegged out on the stiff end on OT2. Prior to that I tried a 340 spine with a 100 grain point, instant bullet hole and repeating bullet hole at the three, in the garage, distances that I shoot. From there I worked backwards to a sweet spot for both speed and arrow flight and the above Gold Tips fit the bill.

I have always heard that a stiffer spine is easier to tune but mine seems out of line except that its working just right. Stepping outside the box sometimes gives you a direction if not a cure.

Good luck

sawdust2


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

*IF* you have someone in the area who is about your draw length, get them to shoot the bow and see what tears they get. I've done this one many occasions and that person (my son) usually will get an opposite tear so I know it is not the bow/arrow combo. 

A month or so ago I was playing around with paper testing and kept getting a small left tear and I knew the bow shot perfect holes before. Long story short, I narrowed it down to my grip or lack of. I was shooting open handed, but changed to having my index finger make light contact with the front of the grip (riser) which in turn closes my hand a tad and works perfect. Sometimes the smallest of details can drive ya nuts.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks to all for your helpful comments.

After trying to correct this right tear problem for quite a while now, including buying some weaker spined arrows, the best I can do is a 3/8" right tear with each arrow. I've decided that if I can't paper tune it, I won't be able to bare shaft tune it. Besides, I don't shoot arrows that way anyway. So, I'm just going to optimize the centershot as best I can by walk-back tuning and accept that as it is. THis has become a frustrating exercise in futility!

Then I'll broadhead tune. If I can't get the BHs to impact the same as the FTs, then I'll jus sight in the BHs and accept what I can get.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I am having the same type problem. I have not gone to as much testing as you. I have decided that since I only want to use my bow for targets to just bare shaft tune to get the vertical correct and then to walkback tune to get the left and right working and as a final step maybe group tune as well as I can and forget it.

Later on I may shoot some more arrows just to see what it does but my bottom line is to get the bow as forgiving as possible and to get it to grouping and then go and kill some foam and X's.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm wondering if feathers would help tune the bow better than the 2" Blazers I now have on the arrows.

What do you guys think? If so:
What type?
What length?
Straight or helical?
If helical, how much helix?
I have the Bitz (straight clamp), Jo Jan (straight & RW clamp) & AEZ (carbon model) fletchers, so fletching would not be a problem.

Sorry to continue troubling you guys with my problems, but if I can improve the bow tune by switching to features, I'd be glad to do it; in fact I enjoy fletching. I use my bow for both informal, backyard target shooting & for hunting turkeys & whitetails.

Thanks once again for your help!


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I am thinking that if you put 6 5" helical feather fletchings on the back of the arrow that it would not make a difference. I think that it has more to do with nock travel than anything else. When the bow is fired the nock moves from the left to the right which causes the bare shaft to go to the left and causes a tear with the point left with a fletched arrow.

If you could shim the cams, to push them toward the right of the bow that might help with the tare. If you had a grip which would cause you to torque the bow to the right that would also probably get rid of the tare.

Try griping the bow and then only torque it a little to the right and see what happens to the tare (don't derail the string). You might be able to grip the bow with the grip to the left of your life line and get enough torque to cause a bullet hole.

From my little experience compound bows and releases are very forgiving of spine issues. I tuned a 53 lb bow to shoot a 28" arrow with a spine of .150 by twisting up the right side of the yoke so that the nock travel was straight. On bows where cables can't be twisted to move the alignment of the cams, I don't know what can be done other than shimming the cams over or trying to shim the limb pockets of the bow.

It seems like that I remember reading that a lot of target shooters said that their bows seemed to group better with a 1/4" high and 1/4" left tare. I am not sure why this would be the case.


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## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

*Consider this...*

"I've decided that if I can't paper tune it, I won't be able to bare shaft tune it."

Please give BareShaft a try. It is much more revealing than Paper. Also, watch this video. How do you know at what point in arrow fishtailing your arrow is passing thru the paper? Move the paper 5' and get a different tear......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI_17jgEdAI


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I never papertune anything(waste of good paper, lol) mine or any of my customers bows, You can get a bow shooting perfectly with just a simple eye-balling, then do a walkback tune with FP, then BH tune out to 50yds(on most some are further) to get FP and BH to hit same POI, very simple, may take a few hours maybe just 20-30 mins, depends on the bow, Thats on a hunting bow now on targets bows I do the same but instead of the BH tune I bareshaft out to 40-50yds and then group tune the arrows at 80-100yds


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Nitroboy said:


> I never papertune anything(waste of good paper, lol) mine or any of my customers bows, You can get a bow shooting perfectly with just a simple eye-balling,


Best tuning answer in ages. I "eyeball" everything, at least after getting timing in place. BH tuning is usually required, but not always.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

TMan51 said:


> Best tuning answer in ages. I "eyeball" everything, at least after getting timing in place. BH tuning is usually required, but not always.


LOL, Yep, K - I - S - S, After I put a bow to spec and cams are timed and oriented right and anything else is set or adjusted properly it makes more sense to me to go about things the easier way, I just don't want to spend time shooting through paper when I can be using the paper to wrap meat that I took with my bow that wasn't papertuned, lol, This is just my opinion, I quit papertuning along time ago when I figured out it wasn't needed, atleast not for me, but again its my opinion:tongue:


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## Archer Dude (Mar 16, 2008)

I disagree with everybody. LOL

I have been shooting 50# for 3 years on countless different bows.

I have tuned about every way imaginable and I can say one thing with confidence; you can get a good paper tune or bare shaft tune or walk back tune etc. and still get lousy arrow flight. No it is not common but it can and does happen.

400 spine has never been a problem even down to 44# for me.

Long vanes on heavy arrows or short vanes on light arrows the results are pretty much the same for tune from my experience. Spine certainly matters but I have never had trouble with 400 at 50#.

Give up on all the other tune methods and broadhead tune it at 20 yards and be done with it.

You will find that your flight is very good for your target arrows and also your broadheads.

I have never had bad arrow flight once a bow is broadhead tuned. 

I used to be a fan of bare shaft tuning but not so much any more. You can get bare shafts to hit the same spot as vaned arrows and still fly cock-eyed as your results would suggest.

By the way, I find that broadhead tuning often will take you moving the rest in a counter-intuitive direction and leave you in a not-square position for your arrow going across the shelf but it will fly good and that is where the best tune is. I also find that once you hit this spot, you pick up 2 or 3 fps as an additional confirmation. 

I just completed broadhead tune on a bow I have been using for months just squared up and it was very consistent for me. However, I occasionally was seeing fishtailing. Now that it is broadhead tuned, it is at least as consistent as before but it is now more forgiving of form and it is 3 fps faster and I never see a fish tail any more. That bow tunes significantly left of center shelf but man does is shoot great. My son's bow broadhead tunes significantly right of center but that is where it is fastest and most consistent too.

A last note; I have found that while walk back tuning, I can put the arrows in a straight vertical line from the various distances by moving only the sight. I can be totally out of tune fishtailing and get that straight vertical line when walk back tuning. I no longer have any use for that method. Yes moving the rest center-shot will move the line too but the point here is that moving only the sight will give the appearance of straight line tuned too. Therefore I find it unreliable at least for some bows.

I am sure the experts on here will think I am nuts so now let me have it. LOL

Bottom line, I don't think you can show me a bow that puts broadheads and target points on the same spot and that same bow has bad arrow flight with fishtailing or angled arrows in the target or other inconsistencies.

Best wishes.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Archer Dude said:


> I disagree with everybody. LOL
> 
> Give up on all the other tune methods and broadhead tune it at 20 yards and be done with it.
> 
> .


Be careful with that, some tuning situations can cause a fixed blade head to be way off at 20yds, and still shoot field points quite well. My experience is that tuned at 20yds does not always mean tuned at 25yds. I always like to see a consistant POI 10 yds past any distance I'd actually take a shot.


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## Archer Dude (Mar 16, 2008)

Well Tman, actually I was a bit tongue in cheek about dropping everything else and the "I disagree with everybody" LOL

I will say that there are times with certain bows that nothing seems to work as well for me as broadhead tuning.

I still find the paper tuning at least interesting but walk back tuning really no longer appeals to me. I can move the vertical impacts dead straight with either the sight or the rest, then move the rest and bring the line back straight with only the sight. I just don't see how this conflict can do anything but refute the validity of that method. The other problem is that Walk back tuning does nothing to address nock height and porposing.

I still find Group tuning and creep tuning interesting but you have to use a very consistent steady hand to get meaningful results.

Broadhead tuning seems to me to be among the easiest and most reliable.

Of course my opinion could change at any moment. LOL

I suppose my punch line should not have been to drop everything else but rather that for some bows, other methods that normally work won't. In at least some of those cases, broadhead tuning makes a difference.

Best wishes.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Archer Dude said:


> Well Tman, actually I was a bit tongue in cheek about dropping everything else and the "I disagree with everybody" LOL


NP Archer Dude, for better or for worse, I totally agree with the rest of your comments and observations. I wish I had even a half *****ed explanation for it, but sometimes perfect setup, and bullet holes doesn't actually produce good BH flight, at all.

Worse, at times the best results are achieved with adjustments that seem to be counter intuitive. I keep six bows up and running, mostly because I like to experiment with new stuff. Some combinations follow the rules, some don't.

Two things seem to be consistant. Slower arrows (<260-280fps) are usually easier to tune for than fast arrows (290-310+fps). Rocket and Spitfire mechanicals will almost always go where a FP goes.


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## Archer Dude (Mar 16, 2008)

Amen to the easier to tune slower bows.

On the faster ones is where I think the broadhead tune helps the most and the other methods sometimes just don't work.

I had an Easton Staff Shooter as an Internet friend for a couple years. He would tell me to broadhead tune and that was his final tuning for his bows. For a couple years I thought he was nuts and wondered why in the world would I broadhead tune a bow I never intended to use broadheads on.

Now I know and finally agree with him.

Best wishes.


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## Spurhunter (Dec 8, 2008)

Ancient,
I'd try it without the shoot thru. That seems to be the only thing you haven't tinkered with. Paper tune for nock height and walk back tune for center shot.....and never paper tune *after* you have it shooting good!


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## mpchopper (Mar 7, 2011)

I have a shoot thru system and I bareshaft tune for center shot and nock height.
I start with paper but focus more on bareshaft at 20 yards. Once tuned with bareshafts, I walkback. Rarely have to make any adjustments after the bareshafts. I made a word doc on this tuning for my nephew. If you want, I can e mail ya a copy. Not an expert but this works for me.


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## va limbhanger (Dec 12, 2008)

I once read a thread from a shooter that couldn't get rid of a tear regardless of his attempts to fix the situation. After allot of tuning, arrow spine testing it turned out that he had a slightly bent cam. It was a new bow too. It sounds like AA has gone through everything known to fix the situation and I'm probably wrong, but I would look at the cam or cams to make sure they are true and do not have too much bearing wear also. Hope you find the solution AA.


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