# pin float/drop



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Possible, but I've experienced moving the d-loop to improve vertical. 1/4" high isn't something I like. Most all my bows tune well at 1/16" high. Some older bows liked 1/4" high, but seems it was single cam bows. 

Griv giving of stabs; side to side, add weight to the front. Up and down, add weight to the back. Usually given is a ratio of 1 to 3. I've found 1 to 2 works and 1 to 4 works. Just depends on the bow and you.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me just pulling until the shot breaks can be a bad thing, why? Because it forces you to deal with a steady amount of pressure change in the tension on your wall because you are increasing it the entire shot. 

I personally am a subtle execution shooter so I don't like doing a lot of stuff during the shot to get the release to fire, I prefer keeping the tensions in the shot very much the same the entire execution. 

But, I do not believe in just sitting in the valley at all. I think a person is way better off being firmly planted into the wall with a good amount of "Back Tension Preload". 

So, what I like doing is coming to anchor and as I settle into my peep I add my preload to the wall. Once that set amount of preload is given to the wall I do not add to it during the shot, I want to keep it exactly the same with a nice execution.

Now,

What this means is that Yielding becomes really freaking important, As I execute which includes a little squeeze into the wall I must yield my fingers to the release so that they balance out perfectly and my preload can remain the same. This balance between the two allows my pin float to remain very nice and not have funny vertical bounces or drop outs.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The other issue in a guys execution that can lead to funny vertical bounces or drop outs is "Pausing" if you are allowing yourself to see funny pin float and you pause until the pin corrects itself and then you continue with the execution you are totally screwed. You really need to learn to settle into the shot and once you begin your execution it never pauses or changes and just does its job.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a asa 3d shooter and I aim at all of the 12 rings and they are low back ones touching the 10 ring on the bottom edge so I can not allow myself to shoot out the bottom because of drop outs of my hold. A few years ago I finally figured out the things above that I mentioned and they have helped me a great deal.


----------



## Labs (Jun 3, 2004)

Timely post...I needed to hear Padgett's advice again as I begin to get ready for spots again...we have similar shooting styles and it's always nice to hear it again


----------



## quattro (Sep 10, 2014)

paused...maybe thats my problem

arrow sits dead at 90, so 1/16+ schould be no problem


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I just got a new tru ball execute index finger release and what I am finding is that some of the fundamental ideas really do carry over into other releases and become super important. I hadn't shot a index finger release for a long time and after a couple weeks it is obvious which fundamentals are allowing me to enjoy the shooting with the index finger release. The two above I mentioned are huge.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I mentioned preload and pausing earlier, the other big thing is your firing engine that you use to execute the release. In all my years of hinge shooting the biggest hurdle for me is standing there and for some reason it isn't firing and feeling the need to add some kind of pressure or rotation to fire the hinge, it never helps and always hurts the float and the shot in general. Spending the time to find a hinge speed setup that compliments my ability to produce rotation in the hinge is a big factor. The problem then arises that really poor footing or funny conditions change the angles in the shooting form and ultimately changes the speed of the hinge so you are right back to square one needing to produce more than normal rotation. 

Over my years I have some methods that simply work better when things are perfect but they fail in poor footing etc, There are other methods that produce more rotation and even though they aren't as accurate for me in perfect conditions they perform better in competition when things aren't as perfect. Yielding overall for me never really produced the best shooting accuracy with my hinges but it produces a lot of steady rotation and it balances really well with adding tension so that I can keep the pressures in the shot the same. 

I am shooting the index finger release the same way, I am coming to anchor and I have one goal to get to conclusion which is my thumb grazing my shoulder after the release fires. To get there I come to anchor and as I settle into the peep I allow my hand to be slightly firm as I get my index finger on the trigger, then as I float on the spot my hand slightly relaxes and I think about getting to conclusion and the release fires and I feel my thumb slightly skim my shoulder on the way by. Getting to conclusion is on the back side of the wall so thinking of getting there is a easy way to insure that I keep a nice consistent amount of preload in the wall.

I am just giving you these thoughts because I don't know how you execute and if you are a really slow set hinge guy or a really heavy spring tension thumb trigger guy etc. If you are one of those guys you may have been told to do so by people who are good at slow hinges and heavy springs. I always struggled with slow hinge settings because I believe that I am a small amount of rotation guy. I just don't produce much so working with hinge speed to match was a key thing for me. With the index finger release I set it up to have zero creep and a light trigger so that I can safely get mounted to the trigger and then apply a nice little firing engine and the arrow is on its way.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Possible, but I've experienced moving the d-loop to improve vertical.


Whoops. Should have been; I've never experienced moving the d-loop to improve vertical.

Padgett gives some good advice to take in.....


----------



## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Get onto youtube and watch all the George Ryals "Thing a week" videos until you come to the shoulder position one. 
Then watch it several times until you understand it. 
Then incorporate what you learn.


----------



## quattro (Sep 10, 2014)

I newer tried hinge release, I am using thumb trigger, set more light, not heavy.

In past I was shooting index finger, but had a problem with anchor point and punching so I switched to thumb release.

If I relax and stop pulling my pin drops down… so pausing should be the problem. Ill test it today, let’s see what happens.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Lots of good advice above. Moving your nock point can make a big difference. However, move it in tiny increments. 1/32" is a big move. The sweet spot is very elusive and it can change if you don't set your bow hand pressure exactly the same every time. 

GRIV's "Dip Bang" video that he did for Bow Junky is also great for this problem. 

As you picked up, pausing, stopping, relaxing the back muscles, will not help you make good shots. Change in the tension of holding at full draw will change your POI. Change is not your friend.

Allen


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

my son is one of the better archers I know, what he does with his float on the target is circle the inside of the bulleye ,while he is aiming and the execution of the shot every time, try the circle float it helps. good luck,Pete53


----------



## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

Sounds to me like a combination of a few things. One that's been mentioned about starting and stopping your shot process. The other, which I think it's more of is a collapsing bow shoulder. I once had the same issue and tried everything under the sun and then some to figure out what the hell was going on. Mine was 90% collapsing bow shoulder and 10% starting and stopping during the shot process. I would say that most people that have this and similar issues is because of those two things and mainly the bow shoulder collapsing more than anything else. Especially when you get tired and/or pull too hard into the shot. Because more than likely you're not pushing/keeping that bow shoulder down as much as you're pulling. John Dudley has a great video or two on the subject. Helped me huge amounts. 

Just as an aside, I would say 99% of the time whenever I had an issue it's been me and not my bow. I know a lot of guys like to go right to the bow as the problem, but it very rarely is.


----------



## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Padgett said:


> To me just pulling until the shot breaks can be a bad thing, why? Because it forces you to deal with a steady amount of pressure change in the tension on your wall because you are increasing it the entire shot.


Actually, after many many shots, the pressure increase becomes very little. Eventually, just enough to set the release off. The real advantage of an increasing-pressure method is that it's significantly more immune to creeping than the wall-sitting/finger-twiddler method. The concept of "holding" pressure very easily and quickly becomes leaking pressure (and creeping) in actual practice. OTOH, the idea of "increasing" pressure, even when tired or out of practice, is less likely to become leaking pressure and creeping; at worst it maintains pressure on the wall as you continue to step on the gas. Or run out of gas and let down, which by then it doesn't make any difference . But that's the general idea of one of the big advantages of a pulling style shot over the wall-sitter style.

It's also a myth that a pull-through style shot isn't repeatable, or pulls the pin off the target and so on. The old "if that's happening you're not doing it right" saying is almost appropriate if the blame for those kinds of problems are placed on the pulling style of shooting. When I pull the pin off the target the usual reason is I'm butting up against the out-of-gas situation I mentioned above. The back muscles are exhausted or weren't engaged right from the start of the shot. Otherwise, I just stare at the gold through the pin as the pressure builds until it goes off.

Course, that said, pullers also do the dip bang, though the reason is slightly different from the creeping-caused dipbang - in my case, it's usually fatigue and a sudden collapse in the support in my back, the arm drops as a small shoulder muscle takes over and the release goes off... and instant "the onion".. 

lee.


----------



## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJbu3GtfUro&t=41s


----------



## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

Huntinsker said:


> Watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJbu3GtfUro&t=41s


:thumbs_up


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

lees said:


> Actually, after many many shots, the pressure increase becomes very little. Eventually, just enough to set the release off. The real advantage of an increasing-pressure method is that it's significantly more immune to creeping than the wall-sitting/finger-twiddler method. The concept of "holding" pressure very easily and quickly becomes leaking pressure (and creeping) in actual practice. OTOH, the idea of "increasing" pressure, even when tired or out of practice, is less likely to become leaking pressure and creeping; at worst it maintains pressure on the wall as you continue to step on the gas. Or run out of gas and let down, which by then it doesn't make any difference . But that's the general idea of one of the big advantages of a pulling style shot over the wall-sitter style.
> 
> It's also a myth that a pull-through style shot isn't repeatable, or pulls the pin off the target and so on. The old "if that's happening you're not doing it right" saying is almost appropriate if the blame for those kinds of problems are placed on the pulling style of shooting. When I pull the pin off the target the usual reason is I'm butting up against the out-of-gas situation I mentioned above. The back muscles are exhausted or weren't engaged right from the start of the shot. Otherwise, I just stare at the gold through the pin as the pressure builds until it goes off.
> 
> ...


You can easily demonstrate the advantages of your system by posting several clean 60x targets such as Padgett posts on a regular basis?


----------



## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> Whoops. Should have been; I've never experienced moving the d-loop to improve vertical.
> 
> Padgett gives some good advice to take in.....


I noticed a slight improvement in my hold on my supra max by moving the d-loop down. It was kind of an accident, when I put one of my strings on it with no speed nocks. I shot it for the heck of it to see how it would tune - the d-loop ended up almost 1/4" below where it normally is with speed nocks fitted. The grip felt noticeably more solid and the bow held pretty much as good as my tribute does. 

I recently put the speed nocks back on and noticed the grip being lower. SuGru will have to do, though, since I think i prefer with the speed nocks on. 

Not sure if there's a difference in the dip-bang rate though....

lee.


----------



## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Padgett said:


> I just got a new tru ball execute index finger release and what I am finding is that some of the fundamental ideas really do carry over into other releases and become super important. I hadn't shot a index finger release for a long time and after a couple weeks it is obvious which fundamentals are allowing me to enjoy the shooting with the index finger release. The two above I mentioned are huge.


Slightly off topic, how do you like it? I love my Like Mike, but have been thinking about trying this one. If the trigger can be set heavy like the LM, that is.....

lee.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am enjoying my time with the Execute index finger release, it adjusted exactly like a high quality thumb trigger so it was easy to get rid of all creep and then set the spring tension to what i wanted. I chose to go with a very light trigger setting so I don't know what the stiff setting feels like, it came with the light spring in it and I switched it over to the heavy spring and set it on the lowest setting possible with it. I don't have experience with heavy spring settings in trigger releases, I have been a hinge shooter only since I became a decent shooter. I did crank it down all the way and shot a few shots with it but I just wanted to have a light trigger so didn't spend any time doing the heavy setting.


----------



## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Padgett said:


> I am enjoying my time with the Execute index finger release, it adjusted exactly like a high quality thumb trigger so it was easy to get rid of all creep and then set the spring tension to what i wanted. I chose to go with a very light trigger setting so I don't know what the stiff setting feels like, it came with the light spring in it and I switched it over to the heavy spring and set it on the lowest setting possible with it. I don't have experience with heavy spring settings in trigger releases, I have been a hinge shooter only since I became a decent shooter. I did crank it down all the way and shot a few shots with it but I just wanted to have a light trigger so didn't spend any time doing the heavy setting.


Ok, just curious. I shoot mine with a back-tension style shot so I prefer a really heavy trigger. The only thing stopping me from trying this one is how heavy the trigger setting can go. The technique works with a light one too, but heavy is just what I like...

Thanks!
lee.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am not a pro shooter and I have shot many 60x rounds on my hundreds of practice days but when you shoot scoring rounds every day for 4 months and are a decent shooter some of them will be 60x rounds. I never have done it on competition nights or tournaments, I have shot some 59x's in competition but am one of the guys that just never has gotten over that hump. I shoot with pro shooters who shoot 60x rounds every day they shoot a local league and they are amazing and I wish I was one of those guys.

I will say that my best years have been my high volume years where I spent 3 hours minimum per day 7 days per week shooting, I wasn't overly seasoned in my hinge shooting and was still learning but the high volume allowed me to really fine tune the process I would be using at that time and shoot nicely. Right now I am way more seasoned and a better overall shooter but I don't get to spend the overall time like in the past.

I try to be honest about my ability level, this year my goal is to get back to be able to show up and shoot a 300 vegas round every night with a 22x to 24x count. I also have a goal to see my first 60x round in competition. Time to get started.


----------



## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

yep, arrows through the bow is my strategy. My goal is a 300 with my Tribute, 10" stab and a recurve pin. I almost made it with my PSE about 3 weeks ago, 2 points shy of my first 300, but I want to do it with my ancient tech wheel bow. And then do it competition... Probably years away but that's what goals are for, right?

lee.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Some type B personality archers can shoot 300- 60 X much easier than most of us even during tournaments,they can also just walk away from archery, maybe never shoot again or come back in a few years ? I seen this before, some of the best archers I have ever seen have that care free B personality. so if you never become the best archer don`t worry there are many us who don`t win much but still enjoy archery. this book > idiot proof archery by Bernie Pellerite just might help you some ? good luck, Pete53


----------



## SpyderSlayer (Oct 3, 2017)

Possible problem with how you release. If you are trying to force the release, this produces a movement...release should happen on its own, as much as happen while you're on the mark.

Possible problem with movement after your release. If you are trying to move your hand back after the release, this can begin while you haven't actually released...minimize your movement after release to just what moves only because it is forced on you.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

lees said:


> I noticed a slight improvement in my hold on my supra max by moving the d-loop down. It was kind of an accident, when I put one of my strings on it with no speed nocks. I shot it for the heck of it to see how it would tune - the d-loop ended up almost 1/4" below where it normally is with speed nocks fitted. The grip felt noticeably more solid and the bow held pretty much as good as my tribute does.
> 
> I recently put the speed nocks back on and noticed the grip being lower. SuGru will have to do, though, since I think i prefer with the speed nocks on.
> 
> ...


A re-read.... When moving the d-loop the arrow rest has move with it. So did you or didn't you?


----------

