# Questions on Binary tuning, please post them here.



## Bellows1

This thread is for questions about Binary tuning, the answers will be posted in the tuning thread.

***Edit...but not answered by me... Edit*** 

Bill


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## Dave Nowlin

I have a question! I have a question! Who's gonna answer my question?

Dave Nowlin


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## NMP

I will help you out all I can sir but I may have to call Dave N-------Oh Nevermind You may need to speak with someone at NASA.


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## BlueRidge

Bellows and Mr. Nowlin, thanks for the thread, I'm sure it will be very useful to us Binary novices. 
First could you define "advanced" as it is used in relation to the cams. If the top cam was advanced (in relation to the bottom cam) would it have more dots showing on the top (outside) of the top limb than the bottom cam has on the bottom (outside) of the bottom limb? 
Mr. Nowlin states "since you don't draw from the true center of the string this negates the idea of tuning perfectly utilizing the dots" Does this mean that the top cam needs to be advanced (or ******ed) because you are drawing the bow from a point on the string that is closer to the top cam? (assuming you are not using a drop away rest) 
Even though the dots on my bow (07 Tribute) are exactly the same on both cams, and I am not drawing from the center of the string, the string hits both the draw stop flats on the cams at exactly the same time. If I move the top cam (advance or ******) won't it throw off this relationship?
Thanks for your help.


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## thespyhunter

This is good. I am getting a NIB '07 Tribute this Saturday( last one the shop has). I have never owned a Bowtech before. All of my experience is with Hoyts. I am sure I will look here often.


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## tackscall

*Perfect thread*

I have an 06 Old Glory, I can see 6 dots on the top cam but only 5 on the bottom. I had this bow Crackerized but shame on me for not writing everything down when I got it back (A year ago). Is it out of tune now? Do I need to do some adjusting to get the same number of dots visible?

Looks like my question has been posted above, sorry for the repeat, I'll watch for the answer


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## rogueworrior

I just put on new strings on my 07 guardian, now The bow maxes out at 68lbs. I am 1/16 under my ata but my brace height looks to be on. I have heard that you should be able to just slip a nickel in between the lobe on the cams and the limbs. 

My first question is where are the timing marks on the cams? was the information correct about the nickel sliding in between the lobe and the limb?

I have a ripcord rest on the bow, do I need to do anything to adjust for the down cable attached to my cable on my bow?

How do I get my bow to be 70lbs like it is supposed to be instead of 68?

Thanks,


J


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## Dave Nowlin

You may have the odd bow that tunes with the same number of dots showing but I don't tune by the dots. I sync the cams. That is I make sure the draw stops on the modules on both cams contact their respective cables at the same time as the bow is drawn. This will correct for any differences in limb strength. I then set the adjustable draw stop to contact the limb when the drawstops on the modules are about 1/16 in. from making contact with the cables. This will allow for the compression of the O-Ring on the draw stop and should cause the drawstops on the modules to just touch the cables when the O-Ring is compressed. If the drawstops on the modules hit the cables before the adjustable draw stop contacts the limb you will distort the cables back toward you. This will decrease the letoff and also shorten the valley. I do not recommend any fallaway be used on any binary can bow other than the Limbdriver.

Dave Nowlin


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## rogueworrior

Dave Nowlin said:


> You may have the odd bow that tunes with the same number of dots showing but I don't tune by the dots. I sync the cams. That is I make sure the draw stops on the modules on both cams contact their respective cables at the same time as the bow is drawn. This will correct for any differences in limb strength. I then set the adjustable draw stop to contact the limb when the drawstops on the modules are about 1/16 in. from making contact with the cables. This will allow for the compression of the O-Ring on the draw stop and should cause the drawstops on the modules to just touch the cables when the O-Ring is compressed. If the drawstops on the modules hit the cables before the adjustable draw stop contacts the limb you will distort the cables back toward you. This will decrease the letoff and also shorten the valley. I do not recommend any fallaway be used on any binary can bow other than the Limbdriver.
> 
> Dave Nowlin


Dave,

Thanks for the reply. What wold you recommend I do knowing that I have a ripcord rest and I will not be able to change to a limbdriver?

thanks,

J


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## hrchdog

Ater talking to Dave I sold the ripcord from my alley and guardian and bought two limbdrivers, couldn't be happier.


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## dtrkyman

what about a whammy? i am currently shooting a dmi expert 2 and my guardian tunes like a dream with this rest


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## capt ace

Dave, you wrote,"These instructions are correct for all of them except the center pivot BowTechs." What are the instructions for the center pivot bows and how are they different from the 07,08"s?


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## Bonz

I have a 07 guardian, and the bottom of the arrow is about 3/4 of the way up on the berger hole. Is it a neccesity to have the arrow centered on the berger hole? Right now it shoots bullet holes the way it is. I just wonder on these new bowtechs with rest holes so low on the shelf, if a person will get fletch contact on the shelf or rest. Should I leave as is or set up again with the arrow centered in the berger hole? Does moving your rest up or down affect left and right tears in paper?


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## Tarbaby

*08 101st*

How does the tuning for the '08 101st A/B with rollers differ from the other binary cams BowTech has? I cannot find a thing on correct tuning of these bows.


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## Newguy2K4

I think this question got answered indirectly above... but here goes.

Dave - at brace, I have an equal number of dots showing inside the limbs. At full draw, my top cam is slightly ******ed (or my bottom cam is slightly advanced). By "slightly" I mean the built in stop on the top cam (not the peg) is approx 1/16" off when the stop on the bottom cam is hitting the cable. Are you suggesting to correct the full draw condition by adjusting the # of turns on a specific limb?

Thanks!


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## mtmedic

Newguy2K4 said:


> I think this question got answered indirectly above... but here goes.
> 
> Dave - at brace, I have an equal number of dots showing inside the limbs. At full draw, my top cam is slightly ******ed (or my bottom cam is slightly advanced). By "slightly" I mean the built in stop on the top cam (not the peg) is approx 1/16" off when the stop on the bottom cam is hitting the cable. Are you suggesting to correct the full draw condition by adjusting the # of turns on a specific limb?
> 
> Thanks!


Or would you twist up the cable a couple times???


As for the 101 and 82 I was told by BT that if I do anything I should ****** the cams a little as this is best for optimum performance. They said any advancement and I would lose speed. I believe he told me the starting point was 2 dots on the 101 and 3 on the 82nd. 

Now as far as finding this sweet spot I would guess one would play with the string and cable lengths in order to alter the cam rollover and start with ******ing both of them and making all the adjustments minutely and also keeping an eye on the ATA, BH and tiller. If that doesn't work then go the other way and see what results are obtained there? 

As for speed increases I assume this would be seen in single digit increase or decrease and your note taking would let you know when you are there. 

Is this what we are talking about???


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## Bowdiddly

mtmedic said:


> I believe he told me the starting point was 2 dots on the 101 and 3 on the 82nd.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Is the count from the outside of the limb or inside?
> Thanks


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## CaptPete

*08 Guardian*

Ok, I just got 08 Guardian & it has less than 50 shots on it. I was going over the specs & writing them down. The only specs I can find is what is listed on the web site advertising the bow. My measurements were taken with the limbs maxed out.
Here is what I have: 
A2A is 1/4" short
BH is 1/16" short
DW is 4 lbs heavy(60lb. limbs)
DL is 1/8" long
Tiller is even(both limb bolts bottomed out)
As far as I can tell using my draw board( the bow appears to be straight on the board), the bottom cam is about 1/32" under rotated. I'm using a DropZone rest with the cord tied into down cable. I don't see any timing marks, dots or anything like that on the cams. 
Do I leave it as is or do I adjust it to the specs of the web site? If I adjust it how do I go about it? 

Kevin


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## mtmedic

Bowdiddly said:


> mtmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe he told me the starting point was 2 dots on the 101 and 3 on the 82nd.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Is the count from the outside of the limb or inside?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was from the outside of the limbs.
Click to expand...


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## Dave Nowlin

I don't know how many times to explain this but the dot count is a bunch of foolishness. If you want to listen to BowTech I will leave this thread and you can do that. If you want my advice PM me with your phone number and I will help. BowTech has done a better job circulating missinformation about these bows then they have helped.

Dave Nowlin


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## mtmedic

Dave Nowlin said:


> I don't know how many times to explain this but the dot count is a bunch of foolishness. If you want to listen to BowTech I will leave this thread and you can do that. If you want my advice PM me with your phone number and I will help. BowTech has done a better job circulating missinformation about these bows then they have helped.
> 
> Dave Nowlin


Dave,

I completely agree with you. All I am referring to is what they say should come out of the box. I know and believe that these cams must be timed at full draw in order to perform adequately and efficiently. I want to understand this system so that I may both have my bows shooting well and help others achieve peak performance from their bows. 

I also believe that there must be a starting point for everything. BowTech gives us that and then we apply what we are learning from you and others to get these machines performing at their best. 

Thanks for taking the time to go through this with us and please try not to get too frustrated as this is a lot to digest and then apply. I look forward to talking with you personally when I have the time to give you my full attention.


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## Dave Nowlin

Your starting point should not be dots. Your starting point should be blueprinting your string and cables.

Dave Nowlin


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## Wolfman88

*07 Equalizer*

I have an 07 Equalizer that peaks at 61# at 26inch draw lenght. Due to neck and upper back problems 57 pounds is the most comfortable to pull.Ive been thinking about twisting the cables to get 57pound with the limbs maxed just because its at its quietest when the limbs are maxed ( thats important to me)My questions are: Will the strings and cables take that much twisting and untwisting? and other than a loss of speed will this hurt the overall efficeincy of my bow? Would I be better off just loosening the limb bolts and leave well enough alone?


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## cdhunter

dave how familiar are you with the velocitech from alpine and an tuning advice most people around here are intimidated by these cams.


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## LGN

*Guardian cam timing*

I noticed one cam was slightly under-rotated. I read in one post to correct this by twisting one cable, and then untwisting the other same amount of turns. It did correct the problem. I did perceive a slight increase in DL.
Any comments would be appreciated.


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## Tarbaby

*He knows*

I spent one hour on the phone with Dave today while working on my 101. It shoots perfect and holds better than it did the day I got it. He knows what he is talking about!


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## OCD

*Thanks in advance!!!*

Dave, does the advanced lower/******ed upper cam mentallity apply to all BT binaries, after 05? If so, Thank you BT for the "mod stop". It has given us a starting point, as well as providing a saftey net for idiots like myself. I hate to admit it, but I have locked up an 05. No damage, no injury, but it did take a change of clothes to procede. Dave thanks so much for your time & effort applied to this thread. Guys remember, God gave us two ears & one mouth.


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## Dave Nowlin

******ing a cam hasn't been in the picture since the 06s came out. Today it is about syncing cams, checking draw length and setting the draw stop. Comprende? I can't comment on the Alpine as I haven't seen one. If Alpine wants to send me one to study, I will study it and report my results.

Dave Nowlin


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## archer58 in pa

I have a couple simple questions...
Do you twist/untwist the string to shorten draw length?
Do you twist/untwist the cables to lengthen brace height?


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## CaptPete

CaptPete said:


> Ok, I just got 08 Guardian & it has less than 50 shots on it. I was going over the specs & writing them down. The only specs I can find is what is listed on the web site advertising the bow. My measurements were taken with the limbs maxed out.
> Here is what I have:
> A2A is 1/4" short
> BH is 1/16" short
> DW is 4 lbs heavy(60lb. limbs)
> DL is 1/8" long
> Tiller is even(both limb bolts bottomed out)
> As far as I can tell using my draw board( the bow appears to be straight on the board), the bottom cam is about 1/32" under rotated. I'm using a DropZone rest with the cord tied into down cable. I don't see any timing marks, dots or anything like that on the cams.
> Do I leave it as is or do I adjust it to the specs of the web site? If I adjust it how do I go about it?
> 
> Kevin


Guess nobody can help me.


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## oldglorynewbie

CaptPete said:


> Guess nobody can help me.


I would write Pat Dinan at bowtech and ask if the specs listed on the website are correct. If they are then I would probably try to get my specs a little closer and sync my cams better.


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## PA.JAY

not taking anything away from OG's response your D/l is only 1/8 long odd for being 1/4 short ATA . my commander is 1/4 below ATA thats because the bow couldn't & woln't make poundage so yes their written Specs. are a joke . any how get your cams in time take a twist or two out of your string & you should be good .


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## CaptPete

Thanks for the replies guys. I did email BowTech through their website and ask the same questions and gave the same info. I also asked about having fletching clearance issues. I received an answer from Nick Droback and this was his response:

_Kevin, As far as your timing /ata/etc. you are still good. As for fletching clearance with a fall away you can line them up any way you want, especially the drop zone! As for the whisker biscuit, it may not be compatible.

Nick Droback_ 

The wife was home today so she gave me a hand. She look at the the cams for and said the lobes on both cams were touching the cable. She also read the scale for me and said it maxed at 61lbs.(the shops scale said 64lbs). If I take twists out won't that lengthen my DL? It's already 1/8" long. Also if I put twists in wouldn't increase my BH, which is 1 /16" short?

Again thanks for the replies.

Kevin


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## bassman409

Capt Pete: Reading between the lines on your factory reply I think they are saying that after another 100 shots your cables will stretch a little and the bow will fall into specs. By the way if you untwist only the cables equally you will shorten the DL. It might even fix the BH!


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## CaptPete

bassman409 said:


> Capt Pete: Reading between the lines on your factory reply I think they are saying that after another 100 shots your cables will stretch a little and the bow will fall into specs. By the way if you untwist only the cables equally you will shorten the DL. It might even fix the BH!


I should have stated my post better.:embara: I was talking about the string. In another post somebody told me to take a couple of twists out of the string to get the DL correct(1/8" long). Don't I need to put a couple of twists in the string to shorten the DL and while shortening the DL wouldn't that increase the BH? If I can get the DL, BH and sync set, I don't think a 1/4" short A2A, and 1lb. heavy will bother. Like you said the cables might stretch that much and fix both of them. Should I wait before I do any adjusting...I only have maybe 100-125 shots on the bow.

Kevin


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## bassman409

You should have plenty of shots now that you put over 150 on the bow. You are correct when you say if you shorten the string you shorten the DL. What I was saying is that by loosening the 2 buss cables you will allow the limbs to separate and the a-a will increase, at the same time the cams may rotate and increase the BH and the poundage will go down and the DL will shorten. Or you can shorten the string !


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## jwolfe78

So... If I have correct poundage. But my AMO draw length is too long compared to the mod that I have on.... what is my next step?? Take a few twists out of the cables and then put a few twists in the string???


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## Kanman

*Pictures*

Like they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. Pictures Please......showing exactly where things belong for a properly tuned cam.

Thanks


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## CaptPete

bassman409 said:


> You should have plenty of shots now that you put over 150 on the bow. You are correct when you say if you shorten the string you shorten the DL. What I was saying is that by loosening the 2 buss cables you will allow the limbs to separate and the a-a will increase, at the same time the cams may rotate and increase the BH and the poundage will go down and the DL will shorten. Or you can shorten the string !



:thumbs_up Got ya now!!! Thanks for the help. 

Kevin


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## jason03

*pic's????*

i agree with kanman,can someone that has a drawboard put your bow on there and crank that baby up to full draw against the stops and take some photos to post?? that would really help..thanks!!!


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## archer58 in pa

*Strings blueprinted.*

Dave,
You and I had talked before about measuring stings and cables. 
I got a new set for my '07 Synergy. Measured them under 45lbs. of pressue(barbell plate) and put them on the bow. 
Evertything looked good until I put it on the scale. It topped out at 66 lbs. , and it's a 70lb. bow. :mg:

Only after putting several twists in both cables did the bow reach weight. My only conclusion at this point would be that I didn't have enough weight to the string OR something else is wrong.
I will say, that the cam sync. is perfect.

What do you think???


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## jf69

ok, I got my 82's mods to day so I put them on set my post and drew. It doesnt fell like 80% let off so I moved the draw stop a tad more and noticed the mod stop is hitting the cables bfore the draw stop hits the limb. Do I need to twist or untwist the cables?


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## enewman

archer58 in pa said:


> Dave,
> You and I had talked before about measuring stings and cables.
> I got a new set for my '07 Synergy. Measured them under 45lbs. of pressue(barbell plate) and put them on the bow.
> Evertything looked good until I put it on the scale. It topped out at 66 lbs. , and it's a 70lb. bow. :mg:
> 
> Only after putting several twists in both cables did the bow reach weight. My only conclusion at this point would be that I didn't have enough weight to the string OR something else is wrong.
> I will say, that the cam sync. is perfect.
> 
> What do you think???


The way I understand it is the string and cable measurements is just a stating point. doing what you did is correct. You just need to make sure your ata brace hieght are correct and cams are still in time


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## TOOL

Ok guys,

here's my problem.
I just changed out the strings on my wife's 06 Equalizer.

23.5" draw mod.
50#

ATA is on at 32.75
Brace is on at 7"
bow is maxing at 50.5#
tiller is off by almost an 1/8
But in order to get the draw length correct I had to twist up the string and over rotate the cams quite a bit.

Cams are in sync, and stops art hitting at the same time.

I know the dots don't mean anything, but they do indicate that the cams are way over rotated. All dots are showing and then some.

Let off is at about 77%.

Anyone?
Dave?


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## TOOL

*update*

Had a talk with Dave today and got everything straightened out. Got the rotation back and shortened the draw length with the cables. 
Nice guy....that Dave Nowlin.
Explains stuff so that even us funny talkin canucks can understand.

_"you've either got to get a bigger box or start thinking outside the one you got."_ Dave Nowlin.


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## leadsled

*Bowtech Airborne 101*

Last night I set up my Bowtech Airborne 101 using Daves instructions. It turned out great. Thanks Dave.


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## oldglorynewbie

TOOL said:


> Had a talk with Dave today and got everything straightened out. Got the rotation back and shortened the draw length with the cables.
> Nice guy....that Dave Nowlin.
> Explains stuff so that even us funny talkin canucks can understand.
> 
> _"you've either got to get a bigger box or start thinking outside the one you got."_ Dave Nowlin.


Do you mind posting what you needed to do to fix the problem TOOL?


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## Pheonix34

*Cam rotation and ATA off*

I have a Parker Pheonix34 as my second bow. recently it's been getting noisy and giving me a lot of handle shock. Upon inspection, I can see what I think is a timing (cam rotation) mark that is approximately 3/8" away from the edge of the limb. I'm assuming that it should be even with the limb. Also, my ATA has stretched to 34 1/2". Can this be caused by cable/string stretch? I have a replacement set, but I thought that they weren't suppossed to stretch that much. I'll try to attatch a pic of the cam with the "timing" mark highlighted in white. Thanks for any help. Bob


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## TOOL

oldglorynewbie said:


> Do you mind posting what you needed to do to fix the problem TOOL?


Sure.

I first let the string back out to where it was, putting the rotation back to recommended position.
I had one cam (only one) at the recommended dots showing for a good starting point in terms of rotation. I then proceeded to sync the other cam according to the stops at full draw.

So now the cams where in sync and bow was in spec, but the draw length was running 3/8 long. Bow maxed out at about 51 pounds.

My wife doesn't shoot at max poundage so having the max at 51 didn't concern me.

I let out both the cables equal amounts to maintain sync and shorten the draw length. With a bit of compromisebetween letting out the cables in order to shorten the draw and letting out the string a twist or so in order to maintain cam rotation, I ended up with a lower max poundage, about half a dot off of where I the rotation (after backing out to her poundage, it was perfect maxed out), and the draw length was about 1/8 long which is where I needed it for her. Let off remain the same at about 77%. Bh ended up 1/8 longer, at ata remained the same.

Many of these 1/8 differences such as draw length and bh are due to backing out the limbs.


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## oldglorynewbie

Thanks.:thumb:


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## archer58 in pa

Ttt


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## BayouBob

Has anyone done any experimenting with the placement of the speed nocks on the 82nd? Are the factory positions about right or should the nocks be moved, added to or subtracted?


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## MysticFlight

Sorry for the redundancy but I have read all these and still don't get it. would just really like to know 4 things.
1. twisting/untwisting the up cable does what to which cam?
2. twisting/untwisting the down cable does what to which cam?
3. equally twisting/untwisting the both cable does what?
4. twisting/untwisting the string cable does what?

Again sorry but I have shot and tuned Hoyt's for years and just absolutely fell in love with the BowTechs. I'm just not that comfortable working on the timing yet, herd to many stories on the binary cams


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## BayouBob

Which cable do you call the up cable? They both connect to both cams.


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## MysticFlight

As you draw the bow the cable that rises toward the top cam.


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## archer58 in pa

mgbarr71 said:


> Sorry for the redundancy but I have read all these and still don't get it. would just really like to know 4 things.
> 1. twisting/untwisting the up cable does what to which cam?
> 2. twisting/untwisting the down cable does what to which cam?
> 3. equally twisting/untwisting the both cable does what?
> 4. twisting/untwisting the string cable does what?
> 
> Again sorry but I have shot and tuned Hoyt's for years and just absolutely fell in love with the BowTechs. I'm just not that comfortable working on the timing yet, herd to many stories on the binary cams


here's how to tell the effect of twisting or untwisting cables.
Just pull a little bit on the cables one at a time and you'll see the way it moves the cam and which one it affects.

Twisting both cables lengthens your DL and adds weight to the draw. This also ******S the cams. 
Twisting the string SHORTENS your DL and removes weight from the draw.

Untwisting cables does the opposite.

The only reason to twist one OR the other cable is to bring the cams in sync. Always twist/untwist the cables in equal turns.(If they are in Sync)

We're talking Binary's here since you have an 82nd.


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## Dave Nowlin

I'm gonna repeat myself. If you need my help PM me with your phone number. After I explain these things to you I believe you will understand.

Dave Nowlin


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## MysticFlight

Dave, Thanks so much for The call today. You are an invaluable wealth of knowledge


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## NJBuckBuster

For all of you guys,girls who want to know anything about binary cams contact Dave Nowlin or Crackers.. If they don't know no one does..

NJBuckBuster


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## jdcamo

I need some input on an 07 Allegiance timing. I had a pro shop put new winnerchoice strings on about 5 mouths ago. I have been shooting great. AFter reading these timing threads I decided that I wanted to make sure my bow was in time. I hooked the string to a hook on the roof and pulled it down. What I found kinda shocked and confused me. The bottom cam cable comes into flush with the module. But the top cam cable does not go into the groove of the module, but instead rests on the top edge of the module groove. When I pull hard into the wall, the cable falls into the groove of the module. I hope what I described makes sense. 

I took my bow into a bowtech dealer to hopefully have the bow pressed and the cables adjusted. The dealer told me that this happens alot with the Allegiances.

I feel that this is not right. I think that the top cable should rest in the groove flush with the module, just as the bottom cable does with the bottom module.

Can anyone help me out? Has this ever occured before? Also how can I fix this. Should I untwist the top cable?


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## nag

Bill, I have an 05 Allegience. There is only 1 draw stop and it's on the top cam. Bowtech says to tune this bow there should be a 1/16 gap between the face of each limb and the center post that hold the string.
You agree?


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## helix33

jdcamo said:


> I need some input on an 07 Allegiance timing. I had a pro shop put new winnerchoice strings on about 5 mouths ago. I have been shooting great. AFter reading these timing threads I decided that I wanted to make sure my bow was in time. I hooked the string to a hook on the roof and pulled it down.  What I found kinda shocked and confused me. The bottom cam cable comes into flush with the module. But the top cam cable does not go into the groove of the module, but instead rests on the top edge of the module groove. When I pull hard into the wall, the cable falls into the groove of the module. I hope what I described makes sense.
> 
> I took my bow into a bowtech dealer to hopefully have the bow pressed and the cables adjusted. The dealer told me that this happens alot with the Allegiances.
> 
> I feel that this is not right. I think that the top cable should rest in the groove flush with the module, just as the bottom cable does with the bottom module.
> 
> Can anyone help me out? Has this ever occured before? Also how can I fix this. Should I untwist the top cable?


Justin,

You need a draw board to check the cam timing as Mr. Nowlin has stated over and over again. If you don't have one, which it appears you don't, you need to make one. There are several threads on AT with instructions on how to make a draw board, just make sure you attach a turnbuckle to the winch for precise tuning. Once you have made a draw board you want to draw the bow with it until your cam stops are just about to hit the string at full draw. In this position you can tell if the cam timing is the same or out of sync. The cam stops should both be the same distance from hitting the string. If one is ahead of the other the cams are out of sync. If the cam timing is out of sync you would add a twist to the cable of the cam that is in front or closest to hitting the string in order to pull it back or ****** the cam. You could take out a twist from the cam that is behind or the farthest from hitting the string to allow that cam to rotate forward. Press the bow and do this. Put the bow back on the draw board and check it again. If the cams are in sync now set the draw stop. If not, continue to add or take out twists until the cams are in sync. To set the draw stop place the bow on the board and secure. Losen the draw stop on the top cam and procede to draw the bow on the board until the cam stops are 1/16 of an inch from hitting the string. Now move the draw stop flush against the limb and tighten. At this point the cams are in sync, and the letoff should be around 80%.


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## TXHillCountry

Still working on my 101st. I built a Draw board and I have the cams synched with the draw stop hitting the limb just before the cables hit the draw stops. The ata is just over 36 1/4". Maybe 1/32, certainly not more than 1/16 long. the Brace Height is short and is at 7 1/16". Draw Length should be 29" and is currently at 29 7/16". Lastly, the cables are hitting the posts pretty hard. Not just touching them or off of them as some have described. There is a noticeable bend in the cable as it goes post the post. 

Any thoughts on where to go with this?


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## helix33

aboyer said:


> Still working on my 101st. I built a Draw board and I have the cams synched with the draw stop hitting the limb just before the cables hit the draw stops. The ata is just over 36 1/4". Maybe 1/32, certainly not more than 1/16 long. the Brace Height is short and is at 7 1/16". Draw Length should be 29" and is currently at 29 7/16". Lastly, the cables are hitting the posts pretty hard. Not just touching them or off of them as some have described. There is a noticeable bend in the cable as it goes post the post.
> 
> Any thoughts on where to go with this?


Try a 1/2 or full twist on each cable. This should get the ATA and brace height corrected and keep the cables in time. If the ATA and Brace Height are correct to decrease the draw length you would need to add twists to the string which would also reduce draw weight. You need to check the draw weight now with a digital or spring scale to determine what it is. If the draw weight is a little heavy doing these adjustments should bring you into specs. If draw weight isn't heavy you will lose draw weight by twisting the string. If that is the case, I would simply try to adjust the strings and cables and come up with an acceptable compromise with ATA, Brace Height, draw length and draw weight based on your own shooting preferences.


----------



## jdcamo

helix33 said:


> Justin,
> 
> You need a draw board to check the cam timing as Mr. Nowlin has stated over and over again. If you don't have one, which it appears you don't, you need to make one. There are several threads on AT with instructions on how to make a draw board, just make sure you attach a turnbuckle to the winch for precise tuning. Once you have made a draw board you want to draw the bow with it until your cam stops are just about to hit the string at full draw. In this position you can tell if the cam timing is the same or out of sync. The cam stops should both be the same distance from hitting the string. If one is ahead of the other the cams are out of sync. If the cam timing is out of sync you would add a twist to the cable of the cam that is in front or closest to hitting the string in order to pull it back or ****** the cam. You could take out a twist from the cam that is behind or the farthest from hitting the string to allow that cam to rotate forward. Press the bow and do this. Put the bow back on the draw board and check it again. If the cams are in sync now set the draw stop. If not, continue to add or take out twists until the cams are in sync. To set the draw stop place the bow on the board and secure. Losen the draw stop on the top cam and procede to draw the bow on the board until the cam stops are 1/16 of an inch from hitting the string. Now move the draw stop flush against the limb and tighten. At this point the cams are in sync, and the letoff should be around 80%.


Ok thanks. I am pretty sure it is in time. My major question relates to the top cable and how it is contacting the module. The bottom cable at full draw rests in the module groove. The top cable does not rest in the groove, but on the edge of the groove. It is angled in the direction of the cable slide. i went to a BT dealer, with my concern and they told me that this happens alot and is nothing to worry about. So my question is this normal?

The first pic is of top cam, and shows the cable in relation to the module when at full draw. The second photo is of the bottom cam and shows the cable in the groove of the module. i would guess that this is how the top should look too.



http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable015lw6.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable014pr1.jpg


----------



## BayouBob

Looks to me like the edge of the mod is already starting to eat your serving. Both of my cables are in line with the groove on the mod. Maybe your axle isn't perfectly perpendicular to the limb/string/riser or maybe your limb is slightly twisted.


----------



## jdcamo

I figured out why the cable is like that. My top cam is leaning and it is causeing the cable to contact the module groove at a angle instead of strait. Kinda bothers me that it is contacing the cable like that, but oh well i guess. Nothing i can do as far as cam lean right?


----------



## sqrlman

*Elite Synergy Tuning*

Dave,

Just so you'll know my background, been shooting over 30 years, last 20 with single cam bow. Just purchased a Binary Cam bow Elite Synergy. I haven't read everything you have published about binary cam bows but plan to. My question is two fold. 

I keep getting a nock high tear. I'm using a Trohpy Taker spring steel rest and it had a .012 launcher blade on it, I changed the blade to a .010 and it improved the tear, but it is still high about a 1/4 inch. Originally it was about 2 inches high. Left\Right is OK. I've only had the bow a day and have only just begun reading your binary tuning information. The cams seem to be in time, I haven't had time to build a draw board yet. I'm shooting 60 lbs, 315 grain arrow. I know this isn't much information but any idea what could be causing the high tear?

Secondly, in some tuning information I keep reading information regarding the two draw stops, my bow only has one draw stop at the top. Is there other information I should be reading.

Thanks


----------



## grown808

Dave Nowlin said:


> You may have the odd bow that tunes with the same number of dots showing but I don't tune by the dots. I sync the cams. That is I make sure the draw stops on the modules on both cams contact their respective cables at the same time as the bow is drawn. This will correct for any differences in limb strength. I then set the adjustable draw stop to contact the limb when the drawstops on the modules are about 1/16 in. from making contact with the cables. This will allow for the compression of the O-Ring on the draw stop and should cause the drawstops on the modules to just touch the cables when the O-Ring is compressed. If the drawstops on the modules hit the cables before the adjustable draw stop contacts the limb you will distort the cables back toward you. This will decrease the letoff and also shorten the valley. I do not recommend any fallaway be used on any binary can bow other than the Limbdriver.
> 
> Dave Nowlin


Hi I had a question on why do you not recommend any fallaway rest other than the limbdrive. Thanks


----------



## 3-D Junkie

sqrlman said:


> Dave,
> 
> Just so you'll know my background, been shooting over 30 years, last 20 with single cam bow. Just purchased a Binary Cam bow Elite Synergy. I haven't read everything you have published about binary cam bows but plan to. My question is two fold.
> 
> I keep getting a nock high tear. I'm using a Trohpy Taker spring steel rest and it had a .012 launcher blade on it, I changed the blade to a .010 and it improved the tear, but it is still high about a 1/4 inch. Originally it was about 2 inches high. Left\Right is OK. I've only had the bow a day and have only just begun reading your binary tuning information. The cams seem to be in time, I haven't had time to build a draw board yet. I'm shooting 60 lbs, 315 grain arrow. I know this isn't much information but any idea what could be causing the high tear?
> 
> Secondly, in some tuning information I keep reading information regarding the two draw stops, my bow only has one draw stop at the top. Is there other information I should be reading.
> 
> Thanks



When people refer to the 2 draw stops, they are talking about non moveable stops that are built into the cam. You are only looking at the moveable stop.
I won't comment on paper tuning because I don't believe in it.


----------



## 3-D Junkie

I recieved an 07' Synergy yesterday and made new strings and cables today.
I looked at what Dave posted so far and it was crystal clear to me what effect twisting and untwisting the string and cables would have. I have been working with cam and a halfs for some time so, these principles are easy to comprehend. The binarys are awesome. In 20 minutes I had new strings installed BH 1/32 over, ATA 1/16 under, weight .6# over, and a wall that was harder than chinese arithmatic. 
Tomorrow I will find the optimum rollover point of my cams, and then I am going to take my bow to see a veterinarian, Because that puppy is going to be sick.

I'd like to add that I have an ELP press from L.A. Archery with the Time Machine. If you are planning on working on a lot of hybrids and binarys, this press is essential. I also have everything else you could dream of having in a pro shop, but it's in my garage.
I'm not saying this to brag. I'm saying this to let some of the guys on here know that if you really want to do your own work, its essential to have the right tools. And the best tool you can have is knowledge. When someone like Dave, Javi, or Crackers is discussing a topic like this you really need to open your mind and forget all the crap you have heard from dealers, reps, and your buddies. For the guys with the Bowtechs I suggest that you never look at those dots on your cams. Forget about them. The only thing those dots will do for you is mark your path to failure if you follow them. 
Before you work on your bow, ask yourself this question would you give your bow to someone else, that has the same experience and tuning equipment as you, and allow them to work on it. In short, be sure you understand the principles you are about to apply, mistakes made while working on a bow can have some pretty serious consequences.

Thank you Larry Ashford for some great equipment and thank you to Dave for some great info.


----------



## 3-D Junkie

grown808 said:


> Hi I had a question on why do you not recommend any fallaway rest other than the limbdrive. Thanks


 I will try to field this one for Dave. The pull on your down cable created by the drop away rest will have a serious effect on your cam timing. Also over time your loop material will stretch and take your cams out of synch due to reduced pull on the down cable. This is also an issue with Hybrids but I believe it will have a greater effect on binarys because they are not anchored to a solid point (top limb).

I would like to add that when you add a sight, stabilizer, or other equipment to your bow, you may change the forward balance of the bow and as a result will pull harder into the top limb and cam. (depending on equipment) this should be compensated for, usually by taking on half of a twist out of your cable to ****** the top cam slightly.

Neal


----------



## kevin3vd1

*Do they Work on all bowtech bows for 2006 for different draw lenghts, or just for the*

I'm needing old glory mods below.
29.5 -3.5
30-3

Do they Work on all bowtech bows for 2006 for different draw lenghts, or just for the old glory.
ThankS!
Kev


----------



## jerrym

*new strings & cables*



Dave Nowlin said:


> Your starting point should not be dots. Your starting point should be blueprinting your string and cables.
> 
> Dave Nowlin


How do you blueprint strings & cables?


----------



## SDLAW

jerrym said:


> How do you blueprint strings & cables?


Measure them between 1/4" posts under 100# of tension. They should match the factory specs exactly. This is the starting point before you do any tuning.


----------



## SDLAW

Dave Nowlin said:


> I'm gonna repeat myself. If you need my help PM me with your phone number. After I explain these things to you I believe you will understand.
> 
> Dave Nowlin


Dave, Are you saying I should PM you with my phone number and you will call me? Oh, and what about those dots? :wink: :jksign:


----------



## NJ-ATHENS

jason03 said:


> i agree with kanman,can someone that has a drawboard put your bow on there and crank that baby up to full draw against the stops and take some photos to post?? that would really help..thanks!!!


i would like to see some pics to. that will help alot:zip::zip:


----------



## pluckem

jdcamo said:


> The first pic is of top cam, and shows the cable in relation to the module when at full draw. The second photo is of the bottom cam and shows the cable in the groove of the module. i would guess that this is how the top should look too.
> 
> 
> 
> http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable015lw6.jpg
> 
> http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cable014pr1.jpg



Anyone have any ideas on this? Exact thing is happening with my 82nd. Only have about 100 shots through it and my serving is about to be cut in this location. No problems on the bottom cam, just the top.


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## ohio moose

If one of the binary tuning guru's would make a tuning dvd I think it would be a great benefit to all involved. :wink:


----------



## MichHunter

*Info list!*

You guys offer a lot of good information as far as what you twist and untwist and what the results are as far as measurements. I just picked up a Bowtech Tomkat for my brother and everything seems to be in order. Besides he still needs to take 150 or so shoots to break the string and cables in. I believe his Tomkat has the binary cams you all are talking about. I am reading your posts so that when things break in or get off I can fix them. I appreciate what Dave is saying about the cam stops hitting at the same time, and the holes not being the focus.

Could somebody post a list of what twisting and untwisting one or both cables does as well as what twisting and untwisting the string does. Could you add in what twisting or untwisting stings and cables at the same does. What ends of the string and cables should be twisted. I suppose that a twist in the top or bottom of a cable makes no difference but it might on the string. Could that list tell us how to twist to align the timing so that anyone who checks this thread can reference it. Could the reference list tell us that if the top cam is slightly ******ed and not in sync with the bottom cam what we go about twisting to correct this (which cable, string ??)

I just think that this type of list would save a lot of people time and research.

Thanks to all those who help!!!!


----------



## racknspur

*More insight please...*

I have talked to Dave on a couple occasions, I understand the process and have since tuned my Equalizer nicely. Marked both cams w/a sharpie @ about 80% letoff w/cables just hitting mods as o ring is compressed. Did this all w/a dig. scale no draw board(which I will eventually have). Question is other than convenience, what advantage does the board create. Also just replaced the strings and just twisted cables till they were back in line w/tuning marks. ATA is 325/8 I think and BH is 7. Is the string just along for the ride in this case, or should I be doing anything to it after twisting the cables?06 Equalizer, sorry.


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## TOOL

That sounds like quite a bit of pre load on that bow. 
The only advantage of the draw board is convenience (checking cam sync, draw length etc.)

The string sould control the ATA on a binary. How twisted up are the cables? What is the poundage? Is there any way you can actually measure the draw length?


----------



## racknspur

TOOL said:


> That sounds like quite a bit of pre load on that bow.
> The only advantage of the draw board is convenience (checking cam sync, draw length etc.)
> 
> The string sould control the ATA on a binary. How twisted up are the cables? What is the poundage? Is there any way you can actually measure the draw length?


I'm @ a little over 59 lbs. backed out 1/4 turn from bottom. What do you mean pre-load? No, I have never actually measured the D.L. only to know it feels comfaotable for me being a 27.


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## TOOL

As far as I know the ATA on that bow should be around 32 and 7/8. Max the limbs out and check your poundage. I should max out at 60 or 60.5. Bowtechs do not usually go too much beyond max. If you do not have access to a draw board in order to measure the draw length accurately, you could have someone you really trust help you while the bow is drawn. Are you certain your scale is accurate?

The bow should be returned to spec and then the cables manipulated in order to set for you (draw length, let off etc). Sent you a pm.


----------



## Kid's Pastor

Hello Dave,

My question centers around the Consititution. I am shooting fingers and is there anything different one would do when it comes to tuning the Connie with fingers?
Also, I have read here that the perfered drop-away rest for the Binary cams is the limbdriver. If that is true, I might try one with fingers; some guys are posting on the finger forum that they work for them.

Thanks and God Bless,

Paul


----------



## e28p

*resetting knock point*



Dave Nowlin said:


> I have a question! I have a question! Who's gonna answer my question?
> 
> Dave Nowlin




Thank you for all your help.

I have syncing cams, setting drawlength, setting letoff and determing exact point of rollover to deliver most mechanical advantage (reflected as speed).
This has moved the shop set knock point. I have raised the rest to follow the knock. Should I reset the knock point and if so how do I measure the correct position.

Earl 
[email protected]


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## mwaym

Anybody who has Dave's invitation to have hime phone them.........TAKE IT !!!!!!!!! I talked to Dave Nowlin last year, and he does......... know his stuff. I actuallu got a lecture from him for doing something with my scales !!!!!! I really thought I was talking to my grampa....sorry Dave, but that is the respect level that I had for Dave !!!!! I felt like a little kid trying to get away with cutting some corners !!!!!!!


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## aj77

capt ace said:


> Dave, you wrote,"These instructions are correct for all of them except the center pivot BowTechs." What are the instructions for the center pivot bows and how are they different from the 07,08"s?


I think the only difference is the center pivot Bowtechs don't have adjustable draw posts.


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## bbs383ci

whats a draw post??? and on my general all i have is one stop one the top cam is this okay and where are the draw stops located on the cams.....the one i do have hits the cables at full draw which i dont like but there is not one that contacts the limb before the one that contacts the cables...

Dustin


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## aj77

bbs383ci said:


> whats a draw post??? and on my general all i have is one stop one the top cam is this okay and where are the draw stops located on the cams.....the one i do have hits the cables at full draw which i dont like but there is not one that contacts the limb before the one that contacts the cables...
> 
> Dustin


According to this, the General has at least one adjustable drawstop post. Is the stop that contacts your cable at full draw adjustable?


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## bbs383ci

yes it has a whole line of holes so it can adjust,,but lets say i took that off, is that the only thing that keeps the cams from spinning completely around or does the module act as a stop also???


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## e28p

*Cam timing*

Are these cams in time? The bow is at full draw.
All bow measurements are set to less the 1/16 of spec.


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## msfcarp

It appears that they are, but in the pics you can not see exactly the relationship of the cables to the invert of the cams.


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## e28p

*Cam timing*

Thank you for the feed back. I am not clear about the term. 

relationship of the cables to the invert of the cams.

Can you please explain.


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## flatone

I have found that my bow(Tribute) is best when the adjustable draw stop compresses and keeps my cables ever so slightly off of thc cam stops.


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## NMP

e28p said:


> Are these cams in time? The bow is at full draw.
> All bow measurements are set to less the 1/16 of spec.


that is a beautifully timed Bowtech


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## bbs383ci

ok for my general the manufacts specs are 

brace height 8 1/4"
a-t-a 31 3/16"
tiller is off maybe 1/6"

my specs are 
brace height 8 3/8"
a-t-a 31 1/4"

when i put it on a draw board my maximum poundage was 66 when the limbs are 70 my draw length was good 27 1/2" 

now the top cam needs to be advanced just a little, the cable that i can see that would advance the top cam is the downward traveling cable now if i add twist to the cable it will advance the cam right?? 
if i untwist the cable it will ****** cam??

what else will it do to my specs will it mess up my a-t-a, brace height, or tiller??

now once i get this done how do i get the optimal point of rollover for the cams?

im still a little confused about the binary cams? if someone could help me a little it i would greatly appreciaite it.

Dustin


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## bbs383ci

ttt


----------



## Seawood

flatone said:


> I have found that my bow(Tribute) is best when the adjustable draw stop compresses and keeps my cables ever so slightly off of thc cam stops.


I've set mine up that way and the valley sucks. I now have the drawstop setup so the cable stops pull pretty hard into the cables.....does not seem to affect accuracy and the valley is better.


----------



## mecca

So to install a limb driver on a 101st I would need the button for the limb correct?


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## bbs383ci

what do you mean by valley


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## NMP

The length of the draw between the breakover and the stopping point.


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## bbs383ci

do the manu. have a set specs for the valley or is dependent on your draw length and if it is how do i determine if mine is to long or to short?

dustin


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## I Hunt WV

*Captain timing*

Ok know how to check timing on the old binary cams what about the 2009captain with center track cams. Don't see any think for the cables to contact with or referance points other than holes in cam?


----------



## MTNMAN5C

*08 commander*

Ok, lets talk about the 08 commader with the adjustable draw stop that contacts the cables. I but on my new CPK 1.5 mods and placed the draw stop in post 17 as stated on bowtechs website. A2A and BH both in spec. Put the bow into my draw board and cranked it back until the adjustable draw stop hit the cables. Looked at the grooves in the bottom module and noticed that the adjustable draw stop hits the cables before the cable can slide into the groove, leaving the bottom cam about 1/4" delayed. On top cam, cable slides into groove nicely. So, I moved the adjustable draw stop back ONE post to allow the cable to come closer into the groove. Still not perfect, but close. I then made the corrisponding twists to the top cam to slow it down a little, as to not overdraw the cam into the cables. Bow shoots bullets through paper and specs are all on, but there seems to be more hand shock then I expected. This is my first bowtech, so I am comparing hand shock to my vectrix xl and switchback LD. Bow just vibrates a little in hand, for a very short period of time, but still noticable. Is this common?? Any guys been playing with these adjustable draw stops?? Thanks


----------



## TOOL

MTNMAN5C said:


> Ok, lets talk about the 08 commader with the adjustable draw stop that contacts the cables. I but on my new CPK 1.5 mods and placed the draw stop in post 17 as stated on bowtechs website. A2A and BH both in spec. Put the bow into my draw board and cranked it back until the adjustable draw stop hit the cables. Looked at the grooves in the bottom module and noticed that the adjustable draw stop hits the cables before the cable can slide into the groove, leaving the bottom cam about 1/4" delayed. On top cam, cable slides into groove nicely. So, I moved the adjustable draw stop back ONE post to allow the cable to come closer into the groove. Still not perfect, but close. I then made the corrisponding twists to the top cam to slow it down a little, as to not overdraw the cam into the cables. Bow shoots bullets through paper and specs are all on, but there seems to be more hand shock then I expected. This is my first bowtech, so I am comparing hand shock to my vectrix xl and switchback LD. Bow just vibrates a little in hand, for a very short period of time, but still noticable. Is this common?? Any guys been playing with these adjustable draw stops?? Thanks


Are the cams over rotated (cable posts hitting the cables)? They should just kiss them in order to get proper rotation, not force hard into them.
Sync the mods without the adjustable draw stops first. On the draw board you can put the adjustable stops on so that they hit right as the cable enters the grooves and compress as the cables rest in the groove.


----------



## bigmo101

*Creep tuning*

Anyone tried creep tuning?


----------



## ieatmeat

"That's as far as I'm going in this post. Tuning the bow for center shot and tuning a LimbDriver are another subject for another day."
Dave Nowlin 

I see this thread is getting really old but did Dave ever post on the center shot or tuning a LimbDriver? It would be good information to know.


----------



## skynight

The Elite archery forum has a sticky in the Tech Corner section on limbdriver setup by Dave Nowlin.


----------



## Nockoff

*New String and Cable*

I am new on this forum and shoot an 06 Tribute. I have ordered new strings & cable from Bucknasty. I did not record the ata or the brace ht. when my bow was new. Should I take the measurements now, even though I know the string and/or cable has stretched since my peep is turned quite a bit? I have looked at the binary cam tuning instructions in this forum and didn't see this issue addressed. Any advice would be appreciated. Where do I start? This forum is fantastic.

Also, is it OK to use a portable bow press on the Bowtech Tribute?


----------



## rjfoy

*Now I know enough to really be dangerous....*

I need some help with understanding the basics so I can take advantage of all the great advice given here.

When you say cable stops what am I looking at?

Can you tell that these cams are off from the pics?

Thanks.


----------



## Spotshooter2

Rjfoy, where i put the red circles are your cable stops and yes they look in time as it looks like they are touching the string at the same time


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## rjfoy

*That helps*

Thanks Sharpshooter. I'm putting on new strings/cables this weekend and want to do it right. Bob


----------



## nycredneck

Question for someone who knows better than I. I have an '07 Commander, no adjustable draw stops, just the cam modules that hit the cable. How then do I keep the stops from pushing into the cables when at full draw as it seems to distort the cables and I assume over rotate the cam? Can this be accomplished by tuning or is it something I need to do when drawing back? New strings will be going on next week and want to try and do this myself. Have scale, drawboard, bow press,string levels, square allset to go. First attempt at changing strings and tuning myself.


----------



## caipirginka

I just got my new 2009 Sentinel  and trying to see if it's setup correctly.
I noticed there's only one draw stop on the top cam, and nothing on the bottom one.
But looking at the picture on the Bowtech site, this should be intended, since there's no draw stop on the bottom cam there too, what do you think???

I have no draw board available, but I asked a fellow archer to look at the top cam while at full draw, and the single draw stop is pushing into the cable.
Is this normal??? If I remove it, the cam should be stopped by the adjustable module, isn't it???
I read the Bowtech 2009 manual, but I wasn't able to fully understand it when it talks about the draw stop and the left-off...

Anyway the bow shoot wonderfully and it is very fast, so the cams should be correctly timed.

Bye
Paolo


----------



## frankensteel

Okay.
I've read a zillion posts about tuning the binaries, BUT, before I read them I noticed the timing marks on my "06 Bowtech Allegiance cams, and several inquiries in the general forum produced information from '06 Bowtech Allegiance owners that led me to believe that the '06 bowtech cams should be synched so that both cams are at the sixth dot setting. A half dozen or so twists here and there on the cables and strings produced the desired results- both limbs showing the sixth dot just at the limb edge on both limbs,80% letoff and 61# max.weight on a 60# bow, with a draw length that is acceptably close.
I have a hanging bow scale, and with a little effort I can see the cams roll over fairly well, and they look to be in time, with both letoff sections touching the string, and the draw stop set to stop the cam's progress and give me a very good valley, without the cams bending the string, and 80% letoff, as stated earlier.
Now, the posts that I've read say that I should use a draw board, so today I "won" a Fulton 1500# winch on Ebay and I'm going to build a draw board and use it to set up my '08 Allegiance, which I just purchased.
Now, based again on everything Ive read about binaries AFTER I successfully set up my '06 Ally to the point where it performs really well, I should totally ignore what worked, and ignore the timing marks completely, and start with a new set of strings and the draw board.
Okay. 
I will have the winch in about a week, and with the draw board I will be able to very closely watch the cams roll over against the drawstops on the cams. I plan on placing a thin piece of paper on both sides between the string and cam stop area, and check the drag on the paper to insure that both cams are rolled over the exact amount.
I'm using a dropaway rest that connects to the cable guard- not the cables. Its an AAE avalanche Extreme. I have one on the '06 Ally and it works well. It doesnt seem to change anything.
Anyway, there you have it.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
Actually, I can let you know right now. Its fine. The '08 shoots really well. Beautiful valley. 80% letoff. Bow maxes out at 58#. The bow is currently showing very very close to four dots on each limb, and the rollover seems to be right on.
I'll use the drawboard to check the rollover and synch the cams, and tweak draw length and poundage.
And I promise not to look at the dots. Honest. I wont look. I'll totally ignore them.I'll pretend they're not there. What dots? I dont know what you're talking about...


----------



## mpc

I’m trying to find all the info I can about an o8 commander I purchased just yesterday and don’t yet have in hand. im looking for info as far as tuning the cams what cable to twist and for what reason to achieve proper 80% let off and proper ATA. I have noticed in pictures the draw stops around the cam and those are to be set to the specific draw module but what exactly do they do and can they be adjusted to fine tune the 08 commander. Also I keep reading how drop away rest effect the 07 will they effect the 08 in the same way I was going to use a trophy taker. What I keep finding is info on the 07 model but the cams from the 07 to the 08 are different and bowtech changed the limbs my question is do they adjust the 08 adjust the same I don’t think so but I could be wrong this is my first bowtech


----------



## jdcamo

Ok i got a question. I just got a 09 Bowtech Sentinel a few days ago. I switched the strings and cables out for some Vaportrail strings. I had a proshop put them on. When I got the bow back I measured the specs.
The factory specs for the bow are:
BH- 7 inch
ATA- 36 1/4 inch

I measured my bow and got:
BH- 6 31/32 inch
ATA- 36 10/16 inch

This is pretty close, but not the exact same as the factory specs. My question is that is this close enough or should the bow be the exact specs as the factory specs? Should I leave it or try to tweak it to make it factory specs.? If I changed it what would I need to do to bring it to the exact factory specs.


----------



## caipirginka

jdcamo said:


> Ok i got a question. I just got a 09 Bowtech Sentinel a few days ago. I switched the strings and cables out for some Vaportrail strings. I had a proshop put them on. When I got the bow back I measured the specs.
> The factory specs for the bow are:
> BH- 7 inch
> ATA- 36 1/4 inch
> ...cut...


I think factory ATA is supposed to be 36 3/4".
At least that's what they say on the Bowtech Web site.

Bye
Paolo


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## jdcamo

Yes sorry I meant 36 3/4 or (36 12/16) for factory. The bow is currently at 36 10/16 "


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## gstaj33

jason03 said:


> i agree with kanman,can someone that has a drawboard put your bow on there and crank that baby up to full draw against the stops and take some photos to post?? that would really help..thanks!!!


I second that!


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## stewart76

ok im totally lost here... i havent messed with these binarys much... forget the dots.... i have a brand new captain i havent even shot yet... since the top cam has a draw stop and the bottom doesnt how do i know how far to go with the bottom cam? am i missing something here?


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## b_vanfossen

Dave- I cannot get rid of my left nock tear at 8 feet.

Could this be caused because my arrow isn't centered with the berger holes? Right now the bottom of my arrow is in the middle of the berger holes.

I'm trying to see if I can get this resolved without returning the bow. Its an Admiral-

thanks in Advance!


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## catkinson

*let of*

started a thread on this forum then saw this- your a trooper for doing this !! Hey - I bought an 07 Bowtech Constituion and as a finger shooter would like to shoot 65 % but it is currently at 80 % - can I change that by moving the draw stop??[if so press needed?] I'm told you can but not familiar enough to try-- thanks -- chuck


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## flatone

Yes... the mod stop adjusts the letoff. I strongly suggest making youself a draw board if you don't have one already. It makes cam timing and adjusting the mod stop a breeze. I have mine set at 80%.... when the oring is compressed, the cables are just starting to hit the modules. Rock Solid Wall!


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## HCA Iron Mace

What would be the diffrence in the Trinary cam vs Binary, such as on an High Country Iron Mace? To me I do not see any diffrence.


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## Alpha Burnt

*binary cam for older ones*

I have a 2005 Allegiance with the first generation binary cams, how do I go about tuning this? Isnt most of these talking about newer binaries?


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## McDawg

Check the posts of Dave Nowlin he is a wealth of knowledge on First generation Binary cam and well as the newer generation.


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## white oak 2

mpc said:


> I’m trying to find all the info I can about an o8 commander I purchased just yesterday and don’t yet have in hand. im looking for info as far as tuning the cams what cable to twist and for what reason to achieve proper 80% let off and proper ATA. I have noticed in pictures the draw stops around the cam and those are to be set to the specific draw module but what exactly do they do and can they be adjusted to fine tune the 08 commander. Also I keep reading how drop away rest effect the 07 will they effect the 08 in the same way I was going to use a trophy taker. What I keep finding is info on the 07 model but the cams from the 07 to the 08 are different and bowtech changed the limbs my question is do they adjust the 08 adjust the same I don’t think so but I could be wrong this is my first bowtech


I would also like to know the awnser to these questions! I am in the same boat.


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## Alpha Burnt

I have searched and from what I can find, everything is referencing the newer Binary' module stops, timing dots etc. My cam has a moveable draw stop on the top cam, nothing on the bottom and is not modular. I may be searching the wrong thing, any help is appreciated.


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## Alpha Burnt

*Also*

I have access to a press for changing cable and string lengths, but do not have a draw board or chronograph. Will I need these to complete my tune or can I rely on a trusted source watching as I draw the bow for timing?


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## white oak 2

white oak 2 said:


> I would also like to know the awnser to these questions! I am in the same boat.


surely someone can awnser these questions..............surely


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## JBird227

MQ32shooter said:


> I have a 2005 Allegiance with the first generation binary cams, how do I go about tuning this? Isnt most of these talking about newer binaries?


I have a 05 also and have been trying to figure all this out. All the stuff I can find is for 06 and new with modules. I just want to know what to referance on each cam to check timing. I have access to a drawboard and press also.


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## Antihunter

All binaries tune the same.


JBird227 said:


> I have a 05 also and have been trying to figure all this out. All the stuff I can find is for 06 and new with modules. I just want to know what to referance on each cam to check timing. I have access to a drawboard and press also.


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## x-it

No expert but on my tribute when specs got close my cams were close to where they needed to be. When I changed my strings all my specs were close. I had 2 dots outside my limb. That was just a starting point. I put the bow on my draw board. when both draw lenghth mods contacted the cables at the same time my cams were timed . I then moved the draw stop to where it contacted the limb pushing in on it to compress the o ring and tightened it down. I attached my drop away rest cable below my grip and checked again on draw board to make sure the drop away cable was not holding back and keeping the cam from rolling over all the way and affecting my letoff. Hope this helps. No matter what year of binary cams I owned this is the steps I would go through.


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## JBird227

Antihunter said:


> All binaries tune the same.


Ok, I might be wrong about this, but on the cams like the tribute. When timing in the draw board you go off the flat spots in the cam, correct?
If so, there is no flat spots on the equalizer cams. I read on another post for these cams go off the string post. It said should have 1/8" gap between your limb and string post.
The equalizer cam doesnt have any timing marks or any little holes.


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## JBird227

Maybe this helps, The first picture is the top cam, the second is the bottom cam. That is at full draw in the drawboard, The drawboard was made for a left handed bow so that is why its upside down. What do I need to be looking at on each cam to fine tune this thing? its a 2005 Bowtech Allegiance VFT with Equalizer cams. If more pics are needed just let me know...


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## JBird227

Nobody?


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## x-it

JBird227 said:


> Nobody?


If it was me I would measure where the string hooks to the cam from that post down to the cable. And see if both cams are the same. You got to have some kind of reference point to go by. To me those cams look in time or pretty darn close.


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## leatherneck31

*09 Admiral Timing Question*

Hello,
I have a couple of questions about syncing the cams on a 09 Admiral.
I recently took my bow back to the shop to have the limb bolts removed and cleaned, because one of them was turning roughly. Turns out it had some shavings in it that where not cleaned out at the factory. While doing this the tech removed the string and cables. after resembling he said he needed to check the timing. He did this while the bow was at rest (no draw board). He took a twist out here and added one there and after a few minutes said It was good to go. Although I though you needed a draw board to sync I assumed he knew how to do it at rest because I know he owns an 09 Captain with the same cams.
OK so I go home and do some shooting. First thing I noticed was that the drop into the valley wasn't as abrupt as before and the wall seemed slightly soft. Both of these changes where very minor and I just attributed it to the fact that I had the shop change my draw weight from 66# to 62#. 
Next thing I noticed was that my POI was a few inches low at 30yrds.
Again I attributed this to the DW change.
Later I took a look at the timing dots. I remember that before both where between the 5th and 6th dot. Now I have 5 dots showing on the bottom and 9 on the top.
Today I built a draw board to check everything at full draw. What I found was my Draw length came out to be 28 1/2" Although my modules and draw stop are set at 29 1/2".
To confirm my DL was off I placed an arrow on the string and found that the tip of the field point was even with the end of the shelf. That is about an inch longer than it was before.
At rest I checked brace height which was correct at 7 1/2 inches
but ATA was 31 1/4 vs 31 1/16 factory spec.

OK my questions are:
Would my cams being out of sync throw my DL by an Inch?
Should I expect my ATA to be exactly 31 1/16 or is 31 1/4 within tolerance?
Since my bow only has one draw stop what do I use as a reference point to get the cams in sync? 

I have added a couple of pics of my cams in the draw board can, you tell me if they are out of sync?

Thank you


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## leatherneck31

Ok I may have answered one of my own questions. 
The bottom cam ( with the draw stop) has the cable intersecting the 4th hole just ahead of the draw stop. The top cam intersects the 5th draw stop hole. Should it line up on the 4th hole as well? 
Can anyone confirm this as a valid reference point? 
I'm still at a loss on the draw length issue.


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## Alpha Burnt

J bird, By drawing and looking in the mirror, I am getting alot more cam rotation on my Ally. My BH is 7", ATA is 33 3/4" and limb bolts are maxed out and backed off 1/3rd turn. Maybe by comparing notes, we can walk each other through this!


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## leatherneck31

OK disregard my DL question I forgot to add 1.75" to the measurement...


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## FEDE70

*helppp..... heelllppppp*



jf69 said:


> ok, I got my 82's mods to day so I put them on set my post and drew. It doesnt fell like 80% let off so I moved the draw stop a tad more and noticed the mod stop is hitting the cables bfore the draw stop hits the limb. Do I need to twist or untwist the cables?




i have a this problem .... what needddd... ???? the cable are twisted or string,,,,, i dont now to do,,,,,!!!!!!:sad::sad:


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## leatherneck31

Ok I think I have this issue resolved. Lastnight I went ahead and selfpressed my bow. I have a regular press on order but it won't be here for a few days. 
Anyway, after the limbs where relaxed I made not of the position of three landmarks on both cams. What I used was the distance from the limb face to the numer 1 mark on the dl mod and the fixed draw stop post and finally the timing dots. Of the three the first two where the easiest and most repeatable. So after a series of twists/untwists here and there. I was able to get the first two measurments well within a 32nd of an inch. At that point I also checked the distance of the furthest most point of the cam back to the limb and cable. Again measurement where equal. 
Ok so the I moved the mod and draw stop back to 30" and locked down the limbs. 
Next I put it back on the drawboard. Now at full draw both holes intersect the center of the 4th draw stop hole. 
To verify I moved the draw stop from the bottom to the top cam while on the draw board and both times it was just tuching the cable. 

So unless my thinking is way off everything should be in sync now. 
What I learned is the dots are just a starting point, don't rely on them soley for timing. 
It is nice to be able to selfpress the bow, but it would be way easier and quicker with a press. 
Lastly it would be nice to have a second removable drawstop that you could use while adjusting timining.


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## muckdog

FEDE70 said:


> i have a this problem .... what needddd... ???? the cable are twisted or string,,,,, i dont now to do,,,,,!!!!!!:sad::sad:


move your draw post back so that is touching when the mod stops are touching the cables....


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## FEDE70

ok.....


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## wyoming4x4

*They are not timed the same.*



leatherneck31 said:


> Hello,
> I have a couple of questions about syncing the cams on a 09 Admiral.
> I recently took my bow back to the shop to have the limb bolts removed and cleaned, because one of them was turning roughly. Turns out it had some shavings in it that where not cleaned out at the factory. While doing this the tech removed the string and cables. after resembling he said he needed to check the timing. He did this while the bow was at rest (no draw board). He took a twist out here and added one there and after a few minutes said It was good to go. Although I though you needed a draw board to sync I assumed he knew how to do it at rest because I know he owns an 09 Captain with the same cams.
> OK so I go home and do some shooting. First thing I noticed was that the drop into the valley wasn't as abrupt as before and the wall seemed slightly soft. Both of these changes where very minor and I just attributed it to the fact that I had the shop change my draw weight from 66# to 62#.
> Next thing I noticed was that my POI was a few inches low at 30yrds.
> Again I attributed this to the DW change.
> Later I took a look at the timing dots. I remember that before both where between the 5th and 6th dot. Now I have 5 dots showing on the bottom and 9 on the top.
> Today I built a draw board to check everything at full draw. What I found was my Draw length came out to be 28 1/2" Although my modules and draw stop are set at 29 1/2".
> To confirm my DL was off I placed an arrow on the string and found that the tip of the field point was even with the end of the shelf. That is about an inch longer than it was before.
> At rest I checked brace height which was correct at 7 1/2 inches
> but ATA was 31 1/4 vs 31 1/16 factory spec.
> 
> OK my questions are:
> Would my cams being out of sync throw my DL by an Inch?
> Should I expect my ATA to be exactly 31 1/16 or is 31 1/4 within tolerance?
> Since my bow only has one draw stop what do I use as a reference point to get the cams in sync?
> 
> I have added a couple of pics of my cams in the draw board can, you tell me if they are out of sync?
> 
> Thank you


 They are close but not the same. Your valley will be soft. I counted the holes and your off by one. This will change your draw length. USMC grunt mechanic.


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## wyoming4x4

*constitution 07*

Was checking my 07 this evening. I have a drawboard and press. My question is on tillar measurement. I cranked my limbs downsnug and checked my tillar its off by 1/8th inch but my cams are sync'd. So this now gets into limb deflection issues I believe. If one limb is softer than the other then my tillar will be off some. Now do I sync the cams and have tillar off some or set tillar correctly then sync my cams to a correct tillar. Haven't checked axle to axle or brace got hungry and stopped. To get tillar and cams sync'd my lower limb is almost 3/4 turn out and top down snug. My guys think I crazy for this tuning but I like it. Also this will throw your dots off a lot. So I know the dots are Bull manure for timing, just reference. Gonna get new strings soon and decided to check a few things out before I get my final tune. Also guys I'm new to tuning these bows but I'm persistant. I like my bow to shoot well. I don't know where to start other than factory spec's and tweak on it from their. I don't have anybody to help me in wyoming so I got to figure it out. Any excellent info is welcome and keep on shootin.


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## Nick1959

*07 Constitution*

My 'new to me' Constitution arrived in great shape. I bought a pair of LA1 mod to get the draw to 30.5". Installed the mods, moved the draw stop to max and this is where I noticed an issue.

--At full draw, the draw stop makes contact with the top limb but the mods are 1/4 inch away from string--

I just orderd a new string and cables and will go through re-stringing and setup. 

Looking for an answer to the mods not touching the string at full draw ... this will help when setting up the bow.

Suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,
Nick


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## Nick1959

OK... answered my own question.

I took bow completely apart, installed new string and cables, and every thing looked good. On the draw board, the top cam was a little short of string at full draw. I then untwisted the top cable a couple of turns and every thing is in sync.... perfect.

Now lets see how she shoots. 

Nick


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## wyoming4x4

*Couldn't see the forest because of all the tree's.*



Nick1959 said:


> OK... answered my own question.
> 
> I took bow completely apart, installed new string and cables, and every thing looked good. On the draw board, the top cam was a little short of string at full draw. I then untwisted the top cable a couple of turns and every thing is in sync.... perfect.
> 
> Now lets see how she shoots.
> 
> Nick


 Sorry been busy and learning about tuning. all my target shooter say I need a split limb bow but my connie 07 shoots well. In my range I one of the top shooters, Lots of practice to get at this level. Still get my but kicked at another range by some pro's but I'm gaining. Glad you figured it out, scary simple.


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## ssteal

...


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## Cleaner

*Good stuff here!* A person can learn alot from this thread.


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## special

Ive just put new strings and limbs on a 07 Tomkat..the cams are synced,brace height is correct and everything is sweet..the cams are in the same position as before I started.
I adjusted the ATA with it in an X Press with the cable side facing me..The ATA is spot on...But its showing short on the other side of the bow??
It appears that either the strain of the shooting string,or the offset pull of the cable slide is putting a slight twist in the limbs..Is this normal?...Without a buss yoke can it be corrected with any cable adjustment?


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## redman

on a botech general how do you check cam timing when the stops are on a different side of bow thanks for info


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## Watrdog

Mr. Nowlin:

I have a 2009 PSE XForce with GX cams on #11 limbs. I also have an upper cam that is rotating more than the lower at full draw. At rest, the cams are marked where they should cross the interconnecting cables and they are right on the mark. ATA and brace height are very close and the gap between limbs and riser appear to be identical. If I adjust the over rotation it throws the (at rest ) marks off on the cams. Are these just guidelines that do not need to be exact? Or is it more likely I'm addressing the wrong measurement or a weak limb..


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## mightymite04

Dave Nowlin said:


> I have a question! I have a question! Who's gonna answer my question?
> 
> Dave Nowlin


From what I get you are saying speed should be the determining factor on the bows “sweet spot”? Which might be true I don’t measure speed just for simple fact I don’t care but what I am interested in do you see at the same time as Max speed also a noticeable reduction in noise? Me I work on a lot of bows all different cam styles and my process with the shooter is I get a bow fairly within poundage and holding weight and from there I start tuning the starting position of cam or cams for noise. I don’t know everything and you seem way more knowledgeable on technical side of things just curious.


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