# Department of interior strikes a blow for states rights



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

According to a article published in the latest PBS magazine, two similar discrimination claims have been thrown out as being groundless, (my interpretation). One in Alaska and one in Montana. Both cases claimed the state discriminated against the disabled by not granting an x-bow license to an individual with an alleged disability. It goes on to explain that there is plenty of opportunity for the public, able and disable to hunt with an x-bow during rifle season or any other manner they choose. That the state does not deem x-bows legal equipment during archery season, thus there is no discrimination. I won’t go into the whole article, it’s in this months PBS mag if you want to look it up yourself. 

Needless to say (but I will anyway) this is bad news for Jim and his planned case against NY, it’s also good news for those of us that want to keep archery season “ARCHERY SEASON”


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## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

thats going to leave a mark!! ukey: 

Freerange, you and I are going to have to disagree on this one. I respect your position though. :cocktail:


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

Marvin I understand your disagreement, I think. Let me see if I got this right, you believe there should be special allowances for the disabled to use a x-bow in archery season. Well I do to, for the truly disabled, and I might even concede an age limit were anyone over a certain age can use one if they so choose. But that is a matter for the state game dept and the hunting organizations within each state. It shouldn’t be settled in court by some frivolous discrimination case. As stated by others, there is plenty of opportunity for any person in any state to hunt, they only have to pick a weapon and season that suites their skill level, physical ability, time commitment, and have at it, no one is holding anyone back from enjoying the out of doors and hunting.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> According to a article published in the latest PBS magazine, two similar discrimination claims have been thrown out as being groundless, (my interpretation). One in Alaska and one in Montana. Both cases claimed the state discriminated against the disabled by not granting an x-bow license to an individual with an alleged disability. It goes on to explain that there is plenty of opportunity for the public, able and disable to hunt with an x-bow during rifle season or any other manner they choose. That the state does not deem x-bows legal equipment during archery season, thus there is no discrimination. I won’t go into the whole article, it’s in this months PBS mag if you want to look it up yourself.
> 
> Needless to say (but I will anyway) this is bad news for Jim and his planned case against NY, it’s also good news for those of us that want to keep archery season “ARCHERY SEASON”



I wonder why the National Field ARCHERY Association allowed us to use CROSSBOWS in their recent tournament if those devices aren't Part of ARchery?

try as I might, I couldn't find any events for airguns, blowguns, spear guns, paintball guns, muskets, or even slingshots but sure enough, we were there shooting Crossbows in that ARCHERY tournament

Bad rulings by courts happen all the time. I wonder what happens when PETA files a lawsuit demanding accuracy tests-I can see that happening.
Since FreeRange is so into "majority rule" maybe I ask him this question-what should be the outcome if GUN HUNTERS vote to end archery seasons? What if Crossbow archers want a law banishing trad bows from archery season?


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## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Jim C said:


> I wonder why the National Field ARCHERY Association allowed us to use CROSSBOWS in their recent tournament if those devices aren't Part of ARchery?
> 
> try as I might, I couldn't find any events for airguns, blowguns, spear guns, paintball guns, muskets, or even slingshots but sure enough, we were there shooting Crossbows in that ARCHERY tournament
> 
> ...


 Jim, serious question, what do you know about the laws that they have recently passed in other states about the "rights to hunt and fish"? I think several states have pasted them recently. Could laws like that superceed the Peta type lawsuit? Wish our lame duck ohio govennor would do something like this


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## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Free Range said:


> Marvin I understand your disagreement, I think. Let me see if I got this right, you believe there should be special allowances for the disabled to use a x-bow in archery season. Well I do to, for the truly disabled, and I might even concede an age limit were anyone over a certain age can use one if they so choose. But that is a matter for the state game dept and the hunting organizations within each state. It shouldn’t be settled in court by some frivolous discrimination case. As stated by others, there is plenty of opportunity for any person in any state to hunt, they only have to pick a weapon and season that suites their skill level, physical ability, time commitment, and have at it, no one is holding anyone back from enjoying the out of doors and hunting.


 free range, while i mostly agree with you, there are ALWAYS going to be people who abuse it. There should be a check and balance for sure. But when we start telling people that they have to shoot a compound using their teeth then I believe we have gone beyond the comprehensive minds of the voting general public. I think it puts out a bad image if we do that.


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

A lot of what if’s there Jim, but that is just another reason to oppose x-bows so people like you want become the majority.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marvin said:


> Jim, serious question, what do you know about the laws that they have recently passed in other states about the "rights to hunt and fish"? I think several states have pasted them recently. Could laws like that superceed the Peta type lawsuit? Wish our lame duck ohio govennor would do something like this


not a whole lot I must admit-you are right about him being lame . I know some states have passed Hunter harassment laws which the PETA fruits claim is a violation of their first amendment rights

to date I am not aware of any of them being stricken on those grounds.

ultimately, rights are great but if you don't have the means to exercise them it doesn't mean much and if land is being gobbled up for condominiums that is as pernicious as PETA BS


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> A lot of what if’s there Jim, but that is just another reason to oppose x-bows so people like you want become the majority.


are you afraid that xbow archers are going to be as selfish and greedy as some of your fellow travelers?

So what you are saying is a minority should prevent a majority from utilizing a public resource?

thanks for the admission


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

Jim, you are making absolutely no sense, “minority preventing the majority”??? who are you talking about? No one is preventing anyone from using the resource, just as gun hunters are not being prevented from using the resource. Is having separate seasons preventing people from using the resource? You know it would be much easier if you would admit you want one season, any weapon, I have no idea how anyone could think that is a good idea, but it is obvious that this is what you and the rest are after.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> Jim, you are making absolutely no sense, “minority preventing the majority”??? who are you talking about? No one is preventing anyone from using the resource, just as gun hunters are not being prevented from using the resource. Is having separate seasons preventing people from using the resource? You know it would be much easier if you would admit you want one season, any weapon, I have no idea how anyone could think that is a good idea, but it is obvious that this is what you and the rest are after.



I have yet to see anything from you that makes sense as to why one trigger fired mechanical archery device should be treated better than another kind of trigger fired mechanical archery device

I think all bows ought to be treated equally=nothing more nothing less


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> I think all bows ought to be treated equally=nothing more nothing less


There, if you would just stop the other nonsense about sharing the resource and how we want to keep people out of our woods, things would go much better. 

I don’t agree, for one I don’t consider the x-bow to be = to the bow, I will agree with you that for target use it could be considered archery equipment, but remember we are talking about hunting not some NFFA tournament. So we have to agree to disagree. 



> I have yet to see anything from you that makes sense as to why one trigger fired mechanical archery device should be treated better than another kind of trigger fired mechanical archery device


You forget that not all bows are fired with the squeeze of a trigger, and none have to, but as far as I know all x-bows are and do.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> There, if you would just stop the other nonsense about sharing the resource and how we want to keep people out of our woods, things would go much better.
> 
> I don’t agree, for one I don’t consider the x-bow to be = to the bow, I will agree with you that for target use it could be considered archery equipment, but remember we are talking about hunting not some NFFA tournament. So we have to agree to disagree.
> 
> ...



I think the bottom line is I want more people utilizing bow or archery season and you want less. we both agree xbows will mean more people hunting in archery season. You don't like that, I do. whining about the bow or the people who use it is merely a facade to avoid dealing with the only question that really matters


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> I think the bottom line is I want more people utilizing bow or archery season and you want less. we both agree xbows will mean more people hunting in archery season. You don't like that, I do.


Agreed, as Source has said the bow acts as a filter, controlling the numbers of hunters willing to take to the woods with bow in hand. This is a good thing, because of archery season being a mostly solitude endeavor, people like to be in the woods in relative aloneness, away from crowds. This for a good portion of bowhunters is what draws them to bowhunting in the first place. To allow more people in archery season without the filtering affect of the bow, is to destroy the biggest reason most of us bowhunt in the first place. 

If/when the numbers of hunters in the woods reach a level that negates the solitude of bowseason, then you will see a big push for separate seasons, primitive, compound, x-bow, flint lock, in-line, center fire. And we will go from having, in many areas, 3 or four months of archery season, to a couple weeks for each type of weapon. Destroying another big draw to the bow season, the amount of time you get to pursue deer with your bow. 



> whining about the bow or the people who use it is merely a facade to avoid dealing with the only question that really matters


Claiming all the mythical benefits of the x-bow is the same façade in reverse.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

the reason why the powers that be granted bow hunters a longer season has nothing to do with your religious like views but rather based on expected harvest rates and more license sales.

Your rant would be applicable to anything that decreases the time cost of bowhunting

releases and compounds were the single biggest reduction in this time cost or this filter as you called it

me-I think the more the better because the political forces against hunting have lots of money and lots of media supporters

If I invented a system that could get people compound hunting in an hour it would be interesting to see your reaction and how you would deal with it

no matter what bow you use, the required skill acquisition is essentially the same other than making the shot and having far far more experience with that subject than you do I can tell you compound and crossbow are very very similar in that area


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Free Range said:


> Agreed, as Source has said the bow acts as a filter, controlling the numbers of hunters willing to take to the woods with bow in hand. This is a good thing, because of archery season being a mostly solitude endeavor, people like to be in the woods in relative aloneness, away from crowds. This for a good portion of bowhunters is what draws them to bowhunting in the first place. To allow more people in archery season without the filtering affect of the bow, is to destroy the biggest reason most of us bowhunt in the first place.
> 
> If/when the numbers of hunters in the woods reach a level that negates the solitude of bowseason, then you will see a big push for separate seasons, primitive, compound, x-bow, flint lock, in-line, center fire. And we will go from having, in many areas, 3 or four months of archery season, to a couple weeks for each type of weapon. Destroying another big draw to the bow season, the amount of time you get to pursue deer with your bow.


Bingo!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

PMantle said:


> Bingo!



why don't we just return archery season to what it was when it was founded-then you won't have hardly anyone hunting and then in a few years the woods will be real quiet because archery hunting will have been banned


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> the reason why the powers that be granted bow hunters a longer season has nothing to do with your religious like views but rather based on expected harvest rates and more license sales.


I don’t agree with this, completely. For one I have never heard any game department say they give harvest rates by bowhunters anything more then a passing glance. Just to make sure they are not reaching a level to where they need to be included in the over all harvest numbers, for setting seasons and limits for the next year. And I have talked and corresponded with more then a few. 

Now as for the revenue generated by bow hunters through the sale of licenses, I agree that is a big factor, now. Everybody wants more money, and the game depts. are not immune to this. But I disagree that it had much if any affect on why we were granted bow seasons in the first place. We have hashed over the why of how bow seasons were granted in the beginning, so you know where I stand on that. It had more to do with views like mine then it had to do with revenue and harvest rates. 



> me-I think the more the better because the political forces against hunting have lots of money and lots of media supporters


Yes, but I don’t agree that the other hunters, (gun hunters mostly) will let us fend for ourselves. I have to believe all hunters will stand together to oppose the ATA’s if they try to stop bowhunting. If they don’t then we are in trouble. And like I have said before, we are not adding NEW hunters to our fold by expanding the x-bow. 



> If I invented a system that could get people compound hunting in an hour it would be interesting to see your reaction and how you would deal with it


I’m sure you already know where I stand on the increasing technology we are seeing in archery.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

FreeRange,

Thanks for the heads up. I haven't gotten my magazine yet. It should be here soon though.


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Jim C said:


> why don't we just return archery season to what it was when it was founded-then you won't have hardly anyone hunting and then in a few years the woods will be real quiet because archery hunting will have been banned


Banned? Because of low numbers? That's silly.


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

You’re welcome Jason, by the way great article in this last TBM, next time your in CO, let me know and I’ll buy dinner.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

PMantle said:


> Banned? Because of low numbers? That's silly.


If there are less people bowhunting that will only embolden PETA. why do you think they are going after bear hunting and archery hunting rather than gun deer hunting first?


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Jim C said:


> If there are less people bowhunting that will only embolden PETA. why do you think they are going after bear hunting and archery hunting rather than gun deer hunting first?



You give those people too much credit. They don't ever need emboldening(is that a word?) They never lack for energy even if they have no common sense. Red herring anyway.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Free Range,

Thanks for the kind words. After spending a week and a half in the Rockies I realized you folks live in one of the most beautiful places on Earth. I truly felt blessed every night when I'd sit around camp catching up on my field notes, staring at the stars, breathing that cool mountain air and listening to the rutting bull elk bugle up and down the valley. I can't see how it could get any better than that. 

Ever since I got east of Denver on my way home I've been itching to get back out there. Besides, I've still got a score to settle with some mule deer. :wink:


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

Well, actually this seems like a decent ruling. We have way too many legal actions happening on any side of any debate, when one side doesn't get what they want, when they want it. There's a process to change the laws, and it does not involve the courts. That's a Democrat strategy if I ever saw one.

However, the legislative process also should be adhered to. According to law, proposals may be put forth, and if benefits are identified, and NO harm or damage will result in passage of a bill to law can be found, and support (majority) from those any bill pertains to exists, and the bill is constitutional, then the proposal, by definition of the process, should become law.

Regardless, I have never been in favor of legislation from the judicial bench.


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

free range an others, crossbows in the hands of some hunter would be a step up, u know the ones that come to camp haveing shot there bows maybe 2 hrs. less bad press., less deer runing around with arrows stuck in there a$#$%$$ no crossbows, no bow season works for me. this is one of the problems in ny just one, or what the hell we can not find that hit deer just shoot another who tracks them anymore. this hole thing make me sick u worry about crossbows an what i use on my own land when this crap is going on , i feel sorry that bowhunting has a bad smell to it afther 30 years of doing it:darkbeer:


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## oldbhtrnewequip (Dec 30, 2005)

Free Range



Free Range said:
 

> And like I have said before, we are not adding NEW hunters to our fold by expanding the x-bow.
> QUOTE]
> 
> How do you know?
> ...


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

greenboy said:


> free range an others, crossbows in the hands of some hunter would be a step up, u know the ones that come to camp haveing shot there bows maybe 2 hrs. less bad press., less deer runing around with arrows stuck in there a$#$%$$ no crossbows, no bow season works for me. this is one of the problems in ny just one, or what the hell we can not find that hit deer just shoot another who tracks them anymore. this hole thing make me sick u worry about crossbows an what i use on my own land when this crap is going on , i feel sorry that bowhunting has a bad smell to it afther 30 years of doing it:darkbeer:



Tsk, tsk.

More bowhunter bashing from the procrossbow camp....shameful, really.

NY will most likely be the LAST state to fall to crossbows.

Stop whining and hunt with a bow.....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Tsk, tsk.
> 
> More bowhunter bashing from the procrossbow camp....shameful, really.
> 
> ...



I guess New York will be the alamo for colonel Source :wink:


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

the source--- you know that there are more problems in ny to fix than crossbows - to many doe permitts,being able to sign them over to others - now we have less deer to hunt-if its brown it goes down hunting-killing of button bucks.u make it sound like we attack all bow hunters i am not, just the people that ruin it with there dumb crap they do.then they cry no deer. well if u killed most of them the year before to fill a permitt.thats wrong. crossbow are the least of it. get over it archery season was not made for a few its for all of the people of a state to enjoy, an if the use of a crossbow makes more people have fun an enjoy the outdoors so be it.:darkbeer: archery season i want it all, anything u can do with a compound u should be able with a crossbow. to many people are seeing the lite of day u will be shareing the woods with crossbow hunter someday. but keep fighting it, u make a lot of hunters mad an they see though u an are now for crossbows in archjery season thank you


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

greenboy said:


> the source--- you know that there are more problems in ny to fix than crossbows - to many doe permitts,being able to sign them over to others - now we have less deer to hunt-if its brown it goes down hunting-killing of button bucks.



LOL .... You are absolutely correct. 

Let's solve all those other NY problems, THEN worry about whether we should legalize crossbows.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> I guess New York will be the alamo for colonel Source :wink:



Ha .....

Remember The Alamo!!!!!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Ha .....
> 
> Remember The Alamo!!!!!



Santaanna is coming for YOU:mg:


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