# Should we allow String Walkin and face walking in NFAA Trad class



## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

If they are going to align classes with another organization, it should be the IFAA.


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Let me ask this as a pretty direct comparison:

In an open site (fixed front/rear iron site) rifle class - would you allow a flip up adjustable tang site?

In my opinion (My Opinion mind you) - allowing string walking is effectively the same thing,

SO

No, I would not be for allowing it in a recurve trad class.
I say - one finger of the string hand must touch the nock at anchor, and at all times during the shot process up to the loose.

Rick


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

There is a reason we still have a BB class & not because of the guys with compounds with no sights & stabs.
I say leave it be being that if you want to do that all you have to do is change to BB class.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rick,
You make a good point. However your analogy is a change in equipment. SW/FW is just an aiming system not a change in equipment. I am not a SW'er, and have just started to play with it. However I know many who do and have to shoot in the BB class against compounds, and I think that is ridiculous. Most other org's allow it already.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I say sure, try it. Who knows, next year at Nationals, you might get enough for a flight. Seriously though, I think all the "finger" classes should be revisited, but that's not what you asked, so I'll leave it at that.

Good luck


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

No leave it alone,...


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## ncsturkey (Oct 18, 2004)

Are you simply proposing a Recurve Unaided class in addition to the NFAA Traditional Class as it exists today. If so I would see no problem. If however you propose to lump the recurve shooters into a new class that would include Recurve Unaided shooters, maybe not so much.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

ncsturkey said:


> Are you simply proposing a Recurve Unaided class in addition to the NFAA Traditional Class as it exists today. If so I would see no problem. If however you propose to lump the recurve shooters into a new class that would include Recurve Unaided shooters, maybe not so much.


In my opinion we have way to many classes in the NFAA already, just allow sw/fw in the Trad class like the other organizations do (IBO RU/IFAA BB Recurve/USA Archery BB recurve etc)


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

It would be nice to see a recurve barebow class, but that wouldn't be cool for the guys who like shooting a wood recurve with a fixed anchor. 

I like the IFAA's class structure, but it sounds like attendance for NFAA shoots is pretty low to fill that many classes. It's tough to say when joining classes. Some group of people always get the short end of the stick. 

Maybe something like this:

Trad Class = Lonbows and wood recurves off the shelf. No weighting the riser, no string walking, no face walking and strike plate can't be past center (building out with leather or denser material ok). This would avoid having the hybrid grey area/controversies. And since there are guys in the longbow class shooting bows like the Fox Triple Crown, no one (hill style bow shooters) will be at much more of a disadvantage than they already were. It may also help level the playing field by restricting it to wood arrows. Higher performance bows will need a higher spine likely requiring a wider shaft (more weight), or shorter arrow (longer point-on distance). This way guys with wood recurves may only have to make minor changes (possibly remove stick on rest, possibly buy wood arrows) to compete in this class instead of having to go up against stringwalkers shooting ILF's with bolt-ons.

Barebow Recurve= Everything goes except sights and longrods.


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## ncsturkey (Oct 18, 2004)

rsarnes said: "In my opinion we have way to many classes in the NFAA already, just allow sw/fw in the Trad class like the other organizations do (IBO RU/IFAA BB Recurve/USA Archery BB recurve etc)"

So why are you proposing to add another class? Recurve and Longbow shoot in a single class in the NFAA. You propose a new class for recurves and a class for longbows.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

ncsturkey said:


> rsarnes said: "In my opinion we have way to many classes in the NFAA already, just allow sw/fw in the Trad class like the other organizations do (IBO RU/IFAA BB Recurve/USA Archery BB recurve etc)"
> 
> So why are you proposing to add another class? Recurve and Longbow shoot in a single class in the NFAA. You propose a new class for recurves and a class for longbows.


I am not... there is already a longbow class in the NFAA. Since last year we have had a new class for longbow in the NFAA.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Perhaps have a larger class...let the SWers in...however when the score sheets are a tallied and hit the board, they are broken down into "Overall" and "Class" results. Yacht clubs, in sailing, do this to promote a larger participation. Sometimes it is only done for "Special Events". Sometimes only when participation is down.


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## ncsturkey (Oct 18, 2004)

From the NFAA constitution 2012/13 Page 32

The 2013/14 constitution became effective 6/1/2013 and rsarns may be correct. I haven't seen anything that breaks the Traditional class but I have been wrong so many times that some say I am a monument to trial and error.

H.	Traditional:
1.	This style of shooting is for those who wish to compete with the Recurve or Longbow. 
2.	No device of any kind, including arrow rest, that can be used for sighting will be used or
attached to the archers’ equipment. 
3.	There shall be no device, mechanical or otherwise, in the sight window except the arrow
rest, arrow plate or plunger button. 
4.	No part of the rest or arrow plate may extend more than 1⁄4 inch above the arrow. 
5.	No clickers, drawchecks or levels will be allowed. No laminations, marks or blemishes on
the face of the bow or in the sight window will be legal. 
6.	The string may be of any color but must have a single color center serving. One single
nocking point is permitted. One or two nock locators may be used. Brush buttons and string silencers, properly placed may be used. Any other marks or string attachments will be illegal.
7.	One anchor point only is permitted. 
8.	The archer shall touch the arrow when nocked and drawing the arrow with the index finger
against the nock. Finger position may not be changed during competition. In the case of
physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers. 
9.	Gloves, tabs or fingers shall be the only legal releases. In the case of physical disability of
the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers. 
10.	All arrows shall be identical in length, weight, diameter and fletching with allowance for
wear and tear. 
11.	No stabilizer or counter balance may be used. 
12.	No written memorandum will be allowed. 
13.	Bow Slings are permissible. 
14.	During a round no adjustments may be made to the bow and/or its related equipment unless
equipment failure is recognized. 
15.	For all tournaments below the Sectional level, all traditional archers may shoot at Youth
distances.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Interesting question - it is still pulling and shooting with fingers and no mechanical advantage, they are just placed lower on the string. That said, my limited experience with stringwalking quickly showed it to be a superior way to shoot. I have never put in the time to get good with it because it is not legal in the Trad Class currently. I'm a bit torn on the subject but would probably vote to leave the rule alone as is. This thought just occured to me - if a guy used a tab with a spacer, 3 under and used the middle finger for a reference point - would that not give a crawl the same width as the spacer and still be legal with the current rules? While not handy for all ranges it would probably give a point on around 30 yards and work sweet for 3D/Hunting.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

ncsturkey, longbow is in the next page down:

NFAA
2013/2014
page 33
J. Longbow:
1. Same as Traditional except as follows:
2. No stabilizers allowed.
3. A one piece straight ended bow of any material, which when strung displays one continued
unidirectional curve which is measured as follows: When the strung bow is placed with the
bowstring in a vertical position, the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on
the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved
further away from the bow grip. Tip reinforcing not exceeding ½” in height, as measured
from the surface of the bow limb and not exceeding 1 ½” in length as measured from the
limb tip.
4. The belly must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids.
5. The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. No mechanical rests may be used.
6. Only one nocking point is allowed on the string which may be marked by one or two
nocking point locators.
7. Nocks may be of any material and weight of pile.
8. One consistent anchor point must be used.
9. Participation in this style requires wooden arrows.


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## hawghunter2585 (Mar 16, 2010)

I wonder if there are any other examples in NFAA that specifically dictate the manner in which equipment is use? It seems to me that in all other classes the eqipment is the only thing mentioned. If this is the case, and its been said by others, regulate the eqipment and not the manner it is use. I am all for SW being allowed in any class, or rather, having the finger to the nock clause being removed from all classes. There is already too much confusion amoungst all the organizations. I believe simplifying things down to a Traditional (Longbow & wood arrows), Modern-Traditional (off the shelf & any arrows) and conventional-bow unsighted (no sight & no stibilzers) would help usher in the most participation.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm all for rsarns proposal.
It seems more fair for me as a gapper in traditional to get spanked by someone stringwalking _the same gear _than recurve stringwalkers getting spanked by compounds in BB.

And JWesbrock's right of course, but is it doable? Maybe we should shoot for the moon... USArchery is apparently throwing some BB shooters under the bus these days, so it might be a good opportunity for the nfaa.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Allow stringwalking. It's the 21st Century. We shouldn't be afraid to actually aim our bows.

I'm a gap shooter and still get grief for admitting it at trad shoots. Those who shoot badly will always complain it seems. I would not mind losing to a stringwalker one bit. Maybe if more people learned this style we'd see much better shooting within our ranks.

Heck, I don't even mind sights on a recurve or longbow. Anything to help the lousy trad shooters I see all around us.


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

rsarns said:


> Rick,
> You make a good point. However your analogy is a change in equipment. SW/FW is just an aiming system not a change in equipment. I am not a SW'er, and have just started to play with it. However I know many who do and have to shoot in the BB class against compounds, and I think that is ridiculous. Most other org's allow it already.


Yes my analogy/comparison involves a change of equipment, but the effect is almost identical.

I'm not saying not to allow it. What I'm saying is to not allow it in the trad recurve class.

The IBO makes a very clear (and wise in my opinion) distinction between the (REC) & the (RU) classes, where string walking & face walking are concerned.
Not allowed in REC. Allowed in RU. Add a class. I'd be all for that. 

I have, can & do shoot both ways. There is a very wide margin of accuracy between them, even among the best of both.

Rick


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rick,
Respect your opinion and agree with the analogy to a degree. SW/FW is very accurate, but gap can be also if done correctly..... deadly accurate. In the compound world of BB/BH there isn't much difference in scores if any. I am totally against any new NFAA class... we don't get enough shooters now. I was thinking we might be able to entice more IBO RU and USA Archery BB guys into coming over to shoot NFAA if they could do it without changing styles. *I don't fear no dark side string walker..  *(That was for Matt).


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

I'd like to see a trad class where the shooter must release the string the moment of facial contact. That's true archery


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

davidcamacho said:


> I'd like to see a trade class where the shooter must release the string the moment of facial contact. That's true archery


David,

That's 75% of the local 3D trad shooters I know..... if you count the release just before facial contact also.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Personally, I would leave as is. I mean, I'll shoot whatever class I fall into. I've shot with string walkers, in R.U., and while they kicked my butt, it was a pleasure being in such good company, and Dave GermanName (I'm bad with names) sure gave them a run for their money gapping.

I think to say that gapping can be deadly accurate is not the same as saying that using a gap system is the same as string walking. String walking, you've got essentially a sight you can put exactly where you want the arrow. A gap system uses the arrow as a sight, yes, but it is a far less precise aiming system. Some people may be deadly accurate using it, but you could make the same argument about 'instinctive' shooting (and we can not get into that definition).

If it goes that way, it is what it is, but to me, in terms of process, it seems like a fundamentally different game. If I was competing with string walkers, I sure wouldn't mind if we had a few speed rounds at variable distance targets


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

100% allow it.

Carbon copy the WA Rec BB rules and hope that the IBO will follow suit in changing theirs.

The more events that can be shot with the same equipment and technique the more people will want to participate.

-Grant


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

With USA Archery doing away with all of its Master BB classes I think this could be a very positive move by the NFAA.


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

Personally I would change the trad class to be a wood riser only then open up a recurve barebow class that would match the IBO RU class.
I was sorta amused by the recent change to the trad class to allow a 12 inch stabilizer.
I tried shooting trad last indoor season but was not happy with my scores trying to use heavy arrows/light limbs so I could put my point somewhere on the target.
I will just end up shooting barebow next indoor season so that I can string walk. Seems like there are even fewer compound barebow shooters than recurve barebow.


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I always wondered if you dropped all the classes to say 4, you name them and had a tourney would a lot of folks come or would they stay home cause their class isn't there? Right now someone can say they are national champ but who did they shoot against? One other person, I am not saying its right or wrong just my slant but if you put on a great shoot, nice prizes, nice venue I think they will come. Soooo what you think? Drop a lot classes or keep shooting a national that's really 27 little tourneys. Guess the problem is who gets to make the equipment rule. Just a little stir. Sorry. gar


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

davidcamacho said:


> I'd like to see a trad class where the shooter must release the string the moment of facial contact. That's true archery


Ha Ha Ha Ha! Now that's funny right there. Nothing like a little tongue in cheek comedy, even if it is true for a lot of trad archers.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think to say that gapping can be deadly accurate is not the same as saying that using a gap system is the same as string walking. String walking, you've got essentially a sight you can put exactly where you want the arrow. A gap system uses the arrow as a sight, yes, but it is a far less precise aiming system. Some people may be deadly accurate using it, but you could make the same argument about 'instinctive' shooting (and we can not get into that definition).


It's not that gapping is less precise. It is that SW is a calibrated system because you can precisely measure your crawls by either counting stitches or using one of those calibrated laser engraved tabs. This calibration leads to exact repeatability. When you are gapping at the riser you have to estimate your gaps (because risers cannot be marked). If you are gapping at the target you also are estimating. Any time you put estimation up against measurement you will find measurement much more precise.

It would be interesting to see how a stringwalker would do if they were required to use a totally unmarked tab with no neatly measured stitches on it (or a glove).


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

rsarns said:


> David,
> 
> That's 75% of the local 3D trad shooters I know.....* if you count the release just before facial contact also*.


Hey, I resemble that remark ........


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Eriks said:


> It would be interesting to see how a stringwalker would do if they were required to use a totally unmarked tab with no neatly measured stitches on it (or a glove).


Wouldn't be an issue, it would just take a little longer to figure out the crawl.

I've stringwalked with an unmarked tab (Cav elite) and it wasn't an issue.

-Grant


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Wouldn't be an issue, it would just take a little longer to figure out the crawl.
> 
> I've stringwalked with an unmarked tab (Cav elite) and it wasn't an issue.
> 
> -Grant


This ^^^^

Rick


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

IBO has separate TRAD (no SW) and RU (SW) allowed. I like the IBO set up. 

LB - any one or two piece bow, wood arrows, finger must contact nock
TRAD - any type trad barebow, carbon or alum arrows can be used, finger must contact nock
RU - trad bow with some extras no site, SW allowed.

Basically covers it all. I shoot LB, and IBO allows hybrids, D bows, self bows or whatever, except modern 3 piece long bows. So if you wanna shoot ILF you bump up to TRAD, and if you want extra stuff on your bow and Stringwalking you bump up to RU. 

I agree that SW is a technical, precise aiming system that is easily repeatable and is basically a rear site. So they should not be lumped in with all the TRAD shooters. Maybe NFAA needs to restructure to be more like IBO. I won't shoot NFAA because im not going to sell all my r/d longbows to get a D bow.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Wouldn't be an issue, it would just take a little longer to figure out the crawl.
> 
> I've stringwalked with an unmarked tab (Cav elite) and it wasn't an issue.
> 
> -Grant


Of course it still works. The geometry is no different. But will the accuracy be the same, can you tell the difference between 6mm and 7mm by eye?

No counting servings either, that's still a measurement system.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Eriks said:


> Of course it still works. The geometry is no different. But will the accuracy be the same, can you tell the difference between 6mm and 7mm by eye?
> 
> No counting servings either, that's still a measurement system.


Unless you ban serving or ban tabs which are metal backed then there is no way to enforce what you are talking about. Same reason that WA decided you could mark a tab any way you want.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

We have talked about this before for me the jury is still out. In the NFAA compound divisions BB and BH the scores are very close to the same (this hurts) with the BB scores a little bit higher. Now in the IFAA Recurve BB which allows string walking the scores are considerably higher than the scores shot in the Recurve BH class which there is no string walking. So if you think that string walking is not an advantage look at the scores. Do I want to shoot against string walkers I'm not sure. I do at the IBO and have been getting a whoopin. Can a gapper beat a string walker you bet !!! My job here is to make archery grow and if allowing string walking in thr trad recurve division will help I'm all for it.
Gary


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I think there should only be 2 classes for Trad Barebow.

Bowhunter Trad Barebow and Target Trad Barebow.

Let's face it...even though some archers use it while hunting...generally speaking...String Walking and Face Walking do in fact have advantages in 'typical' target archery circumstances.

I believe they belong in a seperate class...UNLESS...there are aspects to a competition that can switch back and forth between the advantages and disadvantages of different aiming techniques such as including pop up targets and moving targets or shots that require less than ideal shooting positions.

I would love to see a competition like that...where the best overall archer would win where there was no real advantage in one aiming technique over another.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Eriks said:


> Of course it still works. The geometry is no different. But will the accuracy be the same, can you tell the difference between 6mm and 7mm by eye?
> 
> No counting servings either, that's still a measurement system.


Eriks, I'm not sure how long you have been shooting but years ago, the Nfaa didn't allow stitching or marks on tabs for barebow. The resust was that the barebow archers held up every tournament because they had to count strands on every arrow. In the interest of speeding up tournaments, compromises were made . It still amazes me that the Nfaa doesn't have the backbone to limit classes. Throughout the years we have heard the now all too familiar whine about " give us a class and we will come". The fact is , those arguments have never been validated and we keep getting stuck with more classes so folks can win at the local level but never venture out to the major tournaments. Cut the number of classes down and we might lose a few who don't really care about archery anyway but when the rules are in effect and the next generation of archers come along, the rules will be there and they will accept them without crying.


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

I say allow Stringwalking.. I like the idea of having a RU Trad class along with modern longbow in the NFAA. I believe we should be on par with IFAA at the very least.

If the rest of the world is doing it.. Why the hell aren't we?

Ren.. If you need signatures..Im in!


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

If you & I have identical rigs, then why should you care how I shoot it? If you think the way I shoot is an advantage, then you do it, too. And, why is it more traditional to have a finger touching the nock?


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Agree agree. Arcus and itbeso..nicely put


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Think something is an advantage? Use it.

Don't like getting beaten by a superior technique? Learn it.

Limit the equipment in an inclusive manner and place no limitations on the technique. The WA BB rules are simple and inclusive. They haven't been changed in a long time simply because they were well written to begin with.

I shoot both NFAA and WA 3D. I'd love to be able to do it with the exact same set-up and technique. Even more for field and indoor which different arrows and even limbs are required to be competitive. National records have been shot in Rec BB using the exact same equipment as the archer used for field and 3D.

-Grant


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> IBO has separate TRAD (no SW) and RU (SW) allowed. I like the IBO set up.


Feel the same...


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

The traditional classes are the refuge of the way of archery of Oetzi the Iceman of the Alps, 5300 years ago; of Robin Hood and the yeomen of King Arthur's day; of Henry the Fifth and the archers of Agincourt; of Henry the Eighth who commanded all men and boys to practice archery; of Maurice Thompson who wrote The Witchery of Archery; of Saxton Pope and Art Young, who learned bowhunting from Ishi; of Howard Hill, Fred Bear, and Frank Pearson who gave us our modern sport of archery. They could compete in our Traditional classes with their original equipment shot in their original manner. They could probably compete very well.

Modern man has figured out many other ways to fling an arrow and to aim it. Cams, scopes, sights, releases, stabilizers, clickers, range finders, calculators. Some are as accurate a rifles.

But many archers prefer to maintain a connection with the simplicity of the ancient methods. Most stickbow archers learn to do it that way, by hand and eye. Most stickbow hunters do it that way. Some get involved in target archery and some of them try to find elaborate methods and accessories to make great accuracy easier. There are classes for that. Many enjoy target archery but prefer to do it the traditional way. We need to retain the traditional classes so they can join us and compete well. But let's leave the 'Traditional' classes alone. -lbg


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Think something is an advantage? Use it.
> 
> Don't like getting beaten by a superior technique? Learn it.
> 
> -Grant


Hard to argue with that, but I will... maybe not a strong argument, but I think there's more to it.

It's all a game, right? The rules might be a bit arbitrary, but you draw the lines where you want to. If you want to use equipment to draw that line, fine but I don't think it's the only way to do it.

I would be more effective at soccer if I simply picked up the ball, and ran over the other players. If I was playing against your average soccer player, my superior technique would be quite effective. However, what would happen would be that other people would adapt, different players would filter in, and pretty soon we would be playing rugby, and then football in the american sense (and I would get my pants handed to me), and the real soccer players would form another organization and make sure the sport emphasized using only the feet, with the exception of goalies.

In greco roman wrestling, you're not allowed to use your legs (or your opponents) in a direct manner. There is a division that does allow you to use your legs for anything short of full out kicking. That's freestyle. Folkstyle doesn't allow you to clasp around the body when your opponent is on the ground and under your control. Freestyle and greco allow you to do this, and reward you with points if you can wrench your opponent over and over. Same equipment either way. 

Now, it's not exactly an accurate comparison, but it makes a point, and I think that it is a valid one. I don't think that there is fundamentally anything wrong with putting string walking, face walking, and fixed anchor/nock shooting in the same class. It's really just a matter of what works for those _participating_.

Now, I guess the question is, who is participating, and how do they feel, and who do you _want_ to participate... and I don't mean just at the higher level events, because if you only cater to people willing to travel far distances, I think you're missing out on a lot of people.

At the higher levels, you see a lot of string walkers. In NFAA sanctioned large events, they may be pretty significant. I can understand how the to shooters using string walking would like to have a larger group of people to compete against, particularly on a national level.

However, in my neck of the woods (which may not be representative as a whole, but it's what I know), string walking is a fairly esoteric technique, and some consider it cheating, or at least defeating the purpose of not having a sight. I don't think it's cheating, it's just another way to do things, and provides a means to effectively improvise a sight, in a way that I think is pretty innovative. That said, many people don't want to shoot that way, but do want to compete, but want to do it against others playing the same game.

If the NFAA actually wants more participation, does it make sense to engineer a class where if somebody wants to compete, unless they're shooting wood arrows out of a 'D' shaped long bow, off the shelf, it is more or less required that they use a method that, while superior in many applications, is entirely foreign to what they understand as 'traditional' archery, let alone, not what they want to do? Does string walking even work well with most bows? On the surface, it seems a technique more optimized for longer bows, bows that most people wouldn't have unless they committed to the 'target' style of archery. One can counter that these people should show up to the events, but the thing is, they _do_, they just don't show up for the events the NFAA is sponsoring. 

Still, the larger point that I see, though, is how do you want to define the groups, and why? String walkers can obviously shoot in the NFAA. Why move that technique to another class? Is it because they don't want to shoot against compound shooters? You could make the same argument. They should just shoot compound bows if they want to be competitive. Heck, I imagine some of the guys are. Alan Eagleton bests many compound shooters with front sights, rear sights, and mechanical releases.

So, I guess I don't have an answer here, but to me, string walking seems, as a matter of process, much more like shooting with a sight than without one. Sure, it is the same equipment as somebody using a gap method, but is it the same game? I dunno, but I don't think so. I guess it'll be what it will be, and I'd like to shoot regardless.

I'll leave you guys to figure it out, but if you're counting hands, I was fine with how the I.B.O. did it, and between making a change and leaving it the way it is, I would leave it the way it is.

For the record, I think the 'D' shaped classification, while allowing a full on pistol grip, was a little odd.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Who's to say Ötzi didn't slide his hand down the string for the close shots? There's no modern technology required to stringwalk.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Think something is an advantage? Use it.
> 
> Don't like getting beaten by a superior technique? Learn it.


I completely agree...IF...an archers primary or only goal is target competition. 

If an archer's primary goal is bowhunting than some of the other aiming techniques will have advantages under those circumstances...which is why most bowhunters don't choose to learn Face or String Walking in the first place and why there needs to be a separate class for bowhunters wanting to also compete. 

Ray :shade:


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

> I completely agree...IF...an archers primary or only goal is target competition.
> 
> If an archer's primary goal is bowhunting than some of the other aiming techniques will have advantages under those circumstances...which is why most bowhunters don't choose to learn Face or String Walking and why there needs to be a separate class for bowhunters wanting to also compete.


Everybody in AMTRAD at outdoor nationals last year was a bowhunter... all four of us. So, no separate "bowhunter" class needed. Actually I'm amazed at how many people think target shooters aren't hunters.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Some of the best hunters I know are hard core tournament shooters it amazes me to


Arrowwood said:


> Everybody in AMTRAD at outdoor nationals last year was a bowhunter... all four of us. So, no separate "bowhunter" class needed. Actually I'm amazed at how many people think target shooters aren't hunters.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Arrowwood said:


> Everybody in AMTRAD at outdoor nationals last year was a bowhunter... all four of us. So, no separate "bowhunter" class needed. Actually I'm amazed at how many people think target shooters aren't hunters.


Just in case... I hope you're NOT including me in your comment about how many people think target shooters can't also be bowhunters because I DEFINITELY realize target archers can also be bowhunters :wink:

LOL... Yeah...if ONLY 4 archers showed up I definitely wouldn't argue for a separate class :wink:

Ray :shade:

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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

How old IS facewalking? Stringwalking? Decades? Centuries? Those techniques ARE "traditional". Its our own arbitrary made up rules, based on petty rivalries and insecurities that have given rise to these circumstances that make such a question even seem to make sense.

Anyway, what is amusing is that NFAA getting a longbow class was a big battle. The same lame excuse was trotted out, "We already have too many classes." Funny, I don't think it was longbow and recurve shooters that demanded a hundred and one different classes. Now if you shoot a compound, they're making classes based on bowstring color and your shoe size.

IBO seems to have no problem with acknowledging that even with stickbows there are several levels of technology. Hmmmm......


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

People shooting their hunting tackle generally don't win this class at the local level, rarely compete at the state level, and never place at the national level. It's a target competition being won by target archers (many of whom also happen to be excellent bowhunters) shooting *gasp* target BOWS.
Many of these target archers want to take their target bows and shoot them against other target archers shooting with different organizations.
In the IBO the equipment for NFAA Trad would put you in RU, except you'd have to switch aiming styles to be competitive.
In WA3D or Field the NFAA Trad equipment would put you in Rec BB (swapping the stab for a weight), again you'd have to switch aiming styles.
IFAA you could go for Rec BH, but you also have the option of shooting Rec BB.

There are plenty of 3D organizations which cater to the bowhunter. 3D is only a small part of what the NFAA does and aligning it's competitive classes with the rest of the world is something we should all welcome.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

grantmac said:


> People shooting their hunting tackle generally don't win this class at the local level, rarely compete at the state level, and never place at the national level. It's a target competition being won by target archers (many of whom also happen to be excellent bowhunters) shooting *gasp* target BOWS.


Valid point. If the organization doesn't want to cater to people shooting their hunting bows, that's okay. You can't be all things to all people. But, then they shouldn't complain about levels of participation either. That's probably why, at the NFAA 3D nationals, the 'trad recurve' class was missing some really good traditional shooters. 



> Many of these target archers want to take their target bows and shoot them against other target archers shooting with different organizations.
> In the IBO the equipment for NFAA Trad would put you in RU, except you'd have to switch aiming styles to be competitive.


When we did the 'traditional' western IBO, it puts you in RU if you have a stabilizer, an elevated rest, or a plunger. I had a plunger, threw on a stabilizer to fit in, and I went RU. If I had simply built out a strike plate, I could have shot plain old recurve. The real benefit of shooting RU, though, was that I got to shoot with Alan, Ben, Dave, and Matt, in alphabetical order, which was a real blast, and a great learning experience.

........
There are plenty of 3D organizations which cater to the bowhunter. 3D is only a small part of what the NFAA does and aligning it's competitive classes with the rest of the world is something we should all welcome.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I see what you're getting at. I think that's a good point. If it's a matter of simply aligning with the rest of the world, I see the value of that, for competing internationally. I guess the question that follows is, is the NFAA the organization for that? I mean, they use the blue targets, right? Shouldn't they switch over to the Fita style rainbow targets?  Maybe it is, but if they want to align with international standards, they should just adopt the international standards and be done with it.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I completely agree...IF...an archers primary or only goal is target competition.
> 
> If an archer's primary goal is bowhunting than some of the other aiming techniques will have advantages under those circumstances...which is why most bowhunters don't choose to learn Face or String Walking in the first place and why there needs to be a separate class for bowhunters wanting to also compete.
> 
> ...


If the bowhunter wants to compete he'll have to understand the rest of the competitive community doesn't want to "hunt" while shooting targets. The hunter has to adapt, not the target shooter. It's a target contest, not hunting.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Stone Bridge said:


> If the bowhunter wants to compete he'll have to understand the rest of the competitive community doesn't want to "hunt" while shooting targets. The hunter has to adapt, not the target shooter. It's a target contest, not hunting.


That's EXACTLY why there should only be 2 classes for an archer shooting a trad bow without sights who would like to test their skills against others with the same/similar mind set. 

Ray :shade:

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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Good point, Ray. You got me. LOL


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This is why NFAA has a freestyle class and freestyle limited class and a Bowhunter freestyle class a Barebow class and so on people don't like someone having a superior technique. Or they just can't gap.:shade:
Gary


grantmac said:


> Think something is an advantage? Use it.
> 
> Don't like getting beaten by a superior technique? Learn it.
> 
> ...


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm only of member of two archery organizations; NFAA, and ASA, so I guess my response only applies to the "NFAA" part of your question, since I'm not a member of IBO, WA, or any other archery organizations, and don't shoot any tournaments under their auspices, I'm not concerned with whether the NFAA divisions align with those organizations. I've been a member of the NFAA for many years, and I guess that's where my allegiance lays. 

Ren, it seems to me your question has two parts:
(1) Do we want to allow these methods of aiming in order to bring this class in alignment with the organizations you stated? That's a question for all of you that compete across this spectrum, since I don't, my response to this would be a specious one, and I'll leave that to all of you, don't really care about this part.
(2) Do we want to allow these methods of aiming in the NFAA TRAD class in order to increase participation in NFAA TRAD class at NFAA sanctioned events? 

Well, to those of you who actually attend Louisville or Darrington, I can see both sides of this issue, however, as the president of a stuggling field archery club (otherwise known as a "damn fool") I can tell you that I would be for anything that would increase participation, and against anything that would hinder it.

And yes, your question is a "simple" one, at least from my perspective it is.

Good luck in your venture.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Stone Bridge said:


> Good point, Ray. You got me. LOL


If an organization really wants to increase their numbers of shooters they need to focus on the primary mind sets of the archers. 

Target archers and bowhunters are not much different in how they approach their goals. Most archers choose equipment and techniques they feel will best fulfill their goals. 

Generally speaking...the equipment and technique often does differs when you compare trad target archers to trad bowhunters. 

It's common to see trad bowhunters using heavier draw weights, shooting off the shelf, bending at the knee and waist aiming Instinctively than you will likely see any serious target archer doing any of that...and there are reasons for that. 

Ray :shade:



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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

longbowguy said:


> The traditional classes are the refuge of the way of archery of Oetzi the Iceman of the Alps, 5300 years ago; of Robin Hood and the yeomen of King Arthur's day; of Henry the Fifth and the archers of Agincourt; of Henry the Eighth who commanded all men and boys to practice archery; of Maurice Thompson who wrote The Witchery of Archery; of Saxton Pope and Art Young, who learned bowhunting from Ishi; of Howard Hill, Fred Bear, and Frank Pearson who gave us our modern sport of archery. They could compete in our Traditional classes with their original equipment shot in their original manner. They could probably compete very well.
> 
> Modern man has figured out many other ways to fling an arrow and to aim it. Cams, scopes, sights, releases, stabilizers, clickers, range finders, calculators. Some are as accurate a rifles.
> 
> But many archers prefer to maintain a connection with the simplicity of the ancient methods. Most stickbow archers learn to do it that way, by hand and eye. Most stickbow hunters do it that way. Some get involved in target archery and some of them try to find elaborate methods and accessories to make great accuracy easier. There are classes for that. Many enjoy target archery but prefer to do it the traditional way. We need to retain the traditional classes so they can join us and compete well. But let's leave the 'Traditional' classes alone. -lbg


We can have metal risers, carbon limbs, fast flight strings, plungers, metal/plastic rests, carbon arrows, and plastic fletching, but as long as we have a finger touching the nock, then we are considered traditional?


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

How about we separate longbows from recurves and limit those two bow styles to no sights or stabilizers. You can use any aiming method you want. Then we'd only have two classes with the best aiming method showcased for all the archery world to see. In time more hunters would see the light and take up string walking or face walking.

I do not string walk in competition because it's no allowed in most contests I enter. But I do set a 20 yard crawl for hunting and always have. I gap off this 20 yard crawl. It's a great way to shoot a bow. If string walking were allowed in all competitions I'd never gap again. I really feel if more hunters who don't compete much and are unaware of string walking tried this method they'd change their minds about instinctive archery and take up string walking. It's more fun than any other method I've tried but for the most part I can only hunt that way.

A massive overhaul of the traditional archery world's way of thinking would result in much better shooting (if stringwalking were not a mortal sin) and fewer deer wounded in the woods. If you've never tried a simple 20 yard crawl with your short hunting rig, give it a try. Being able to place the arrow point on or very near the target is a great way to shoot.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Stone the Longbow and Recurve are seperated in the NFAA


Stone Bridge said:


> How about we separate longbows from recurves and limit those two bow styles to no sights or stabilizers. You can use any aiming method you want. Then we'd only have two classes with the best aiming method showcased for all the archery world to see. In time more hunters would see the light and take up string walking or face walking.
> 
> I do not string walk in competition because it's no allowed in most contests I enter. But I do set a 20 yard crawl for hunting and always have. I gap off this 20 yard crawl. It's a great way to shoot a bow. If string walking were allowed in all competitions I'd never gap again. I really feel if more hunters who don't compete much and are unaware of string walking tried this method they'd change their minds about instinctive archery and take up string walking. It's more fun than any other method I've tried but for the most part I can only hunt that way.
> 
> A massive overhaul of the traditional archery world's way of thinking would result in much better shooting (if stringwalking were not a mortal sin) and fewer deer wounded in the woods. If you've never tried a simple 20 yard crawl with your short hunting rig, give it a try. Being able to place the arrow point on or very near the target is a great way to shoot.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's common to see trad bowhunters using heavier draw weights, shooting off the shelf, bending at the knee and waist aiming Instinctively


But you won't see them do it successfully at ANY competition offered by the NFAA. You might see someone do it at 3D, but they won't be winning or placing. You don't ever see those guys at a Field, Target or Indoor event simply because THEY DON'T SHOW UP.
The winners currently gapping will still be the winners if we allow stringwalking. But we would be way more likely to get participants who currently stringwalk for WA3D/Field/Target to participate in NFAA events if the categories were mirrored.

This is about the NFAA, not a shortrange bowhunting focused 3D organization.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> This is about the NFAA, not a shortrange bowhunting focused 3D organization.


But as I previously stated... IF... an organization wants to increase their membership or participants they should address the 2 primary mindsets that draw people to archery in the first place...which is bowhunting and target shooting. 
There are far more people that can be reached in the bowhunting community if some of these organizations would address the bowhunter's mindset more realistically. 

I find it ironic that some people in the target archery community seem to have any issue at all with how an archer aims...when most archers choose their techniques based on what they believe gives them the most advantage in helping them achieve their goals in competition. 

Ray :shade:



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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Stone Bridge said:


> Being able to place the arrow point on or very near the target is a great way to shoot.


Absolutely! It definitely makes aiming easier :thumbs_up 

Ray :shade:



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

The jury for me is in I have been over at Trad Talk most of us know the same discusion is going on. Edgerat just convinced me.This is a quote from Edgerat
Quote : On to the comments that GAP shooting is harder because you are guesstimating, if you are guesstimating what your GAPs are, you haven't trained hard enough before the shoot, your gaps should be burned in your mind so that you can step up to the peg, know the yardage and shoot it in the middle. Lastly, if you aren't trying to win, there is no point in speaking of competition, that is what it is about, winning the shoot. I play the game to have fun but, if I am not at the top of the stack at the end of the weekend, I feel like I didn't do my part, I didn't train, I didn't have my equipment in top form. If it isn't about winning, you may as well just do a fun shoot and at that point it isn't up to you to decide how the people that do want to compete to win, shoot. 

I say bring it on 
Gary

Thank you Edgerat


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

If the rule is changed, I will switch to String Walking..........I know that my shooting will improve. So is that an advantage, yes - can everyone else do it also, yes. Will they, probably not but at least they will have another excuse. I'm still on the fence but leaning toward SW - the arguments for equipment limitations not how you use the equipment makes a too much sense to ignore.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

I have no issue with the way longbow is set up and I don't think it's necessary to throw stringwalking in there as it's quite difficult (still don't get why 3-under isn't allowed for longbows with a shelf but that's another story), but honestly the notion that not stringwalking is more "traditional" is silly in my mind. You're not changing a thing about your equipment, only how you interact with it.

Is there a reason string walking shouldn't be used for hunting?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

CFGuy said:


> Is there a reason string walking shouldn't be used for hunting?


ABSOLUTELY NOT! UNLESS...it doesn't meet the goals, abilities or personality of the individual archer.

It's just that the other aiming techniques...especially Instinctive Aiming or Gap Aiming at a lower level of conscious awareness DO have advantages in many hunting circumstances over some of the other aiming techniques...generally speaking...which is why so many more bowhunters choose other aiming techniques over String or Face Walking.

Ray :shade:


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Gotcha. Individual goals etc shouldn't really be the deciding factor in competition rules.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Three things:

First:
Those who don't want SWing in the NFAA Trad class: Please state the last NFAA State or National tournament you participated in and which type of competition it was (3D, Field, Safari, Indoor or Target).

Second:
Has SWing been used to take large game? The answer is yes, so why limit a bowhunter from using the same technique that they use bowhunting?

Third:
This effects much more than 3D, which is really a small part of what the NFAA does. This effects events where bowhunting equipment is rarely or never seen. Events like Safari where 101yd shots are the norm, or Field where you shoot 80yds. None of the top competitors shoot the same set-up for all disciplines, but if we allowed SWing that would be no longer an issue. Saves me from having three sets of different limbs, plungers and arrows to go from Indoor to 3D to Field.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I usually attend every State Indoor, and most State Field, although I've missed a few over the last six or seven years. I used to attend every Sectional, but out of the last ten years I'll admit, I've probably only been to three. Here, as field declines the venues for sectionals get further and further away. Haven't been to a National since, well, it's been years. It' just too expensive, the last one I went to I slept in my station wagon, but I was much younger then! 

Having said that , I'm for it, Stringwalking, facewalking, moonwalking, if you want. The problem I have is with the NFAA. It seems over the years, once they let the cat out of the bag, they're not able to put it back in. Why, once something's done, it can't be undone? Especially if it doesn't work. Usually their solution to this is to create another class or division. So then we have Stringwallking TRAD, to accommadate these individuals, and then create a One Anchor TRAD to accomadate everyone who complains about the STringwalkers, because anyone that's been involved knows this is going to happen and we sure don't want to lose anyone. I don't know, I just keep sending my dues in.

One thing that will be good if this proposition flies. All these competitiors complaining about having to have too many different set-ups. There is sure to be a massive sell off of all these archery kits they have the unviable task of having to maintain. Maybe there will be some deals to be had, but I'm not holding my breath.

Look, anyone that organizes or who participates in NFAA shoots knows that this is an issue for the two or three dozen shooters who compete on the National scene, anyone who's spent anytime on this forum knows who they are. I say let them decide, for the rest of us, this is really a non-issue. If that's what you all want, I hope you're able to get it.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Wolf, I think the reason you see so few hunters stringwalking is because they've never tried it. To stringwalk, or to even mention stringwalking, is to bring ridicule down upon yourself within the hunting community.

Why this is is a mystery to me.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Mystery? Because if you shoot a Traditional bow and hit what your aiming at, then you must be cheating........


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

centershot said:


> Mystery? Because if you shoot a Traditional bow and hit what your aiming at, then you must be cheating........


Lol


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> But as I previously stated... IF... an organization wants to increase their membership or participants they should address the 2 primary mindsets that draw people to archery in the first place...which is bowhunting and target shooting.
> There are far more people that can be reached in the bowhunting community if some of these organizations would address the bowhunter's mindset more realistically.
> 
> I find it ironic that some people in the target archery community seem to have any issue at all with how an archer aims...when most archers choose their techniques based on what they believe gives them the most advantage in helping them achieve their goals in competition.
> ...


But IMHO it is bow hunting that holds back target archery here. In countries where hunting and bow hunting are not allowed archery competitions get way more people and its more of a family sport.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

centershot said:


> Mystery? Because if you shoot a Traditional bow and hit what your aiming at, then you must be cheating........


I honestly never understood why people stereotyped "trad" circles until Grant got accused of cheating a few weeks ago for smoking everyone at a 3D shoot. It really does seem to be this way unfortunately - if it doesn't "look" trad then it must be cheating.


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

centershot said:


> the arguments for equipment limitations not how you use the equipment makes a too much sense to ignore.


Exactly! 


The sport is evolving along with our environment. I agree that some things need to be preserved to remind us how this all started, however if we want this sport to grow in the USA small changes will have to be made along the way. I feel this one little change will put us on par with the rest of the world in regards to the BB community.. Just my opinion...Yes im new i know..Just how i see it. I may be wrong which im ok accepting.

BTW im not a stringwalker(Those guys are evil and from the darkside).. Im on the LIght side Gap baby!!! High five Gary!! LOL j/k fellas

After the IBo shoot here in California I seem to feel that Gap vs. Stringwalking and if your talking 1 arrow you can include Instinctive is pretty competitive. Atleast from what i had seen over the weekend..

One other request for the cbh and Nfaa officials. Can we get a clear posting on the current rules on the websites. When i say clear i mean rules that the New archers coming in can clearly understand and find. The Nfaa bylaws are a bit tough for some to understand. Then the Next step in all this is Getting all the smaller clubs on the same page. IF we can get all this done it will be magical!!! haha


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

CFGuy said:


> I honestly never understood why people stereotyped "trad" circles until Grant got accused of cheating a few weeks ago for smoking everyone at a 3D shoot. It really does seem to be this way unfortunately - if it doesn't "look" trad then it must be cheating.


I get this all the time at small local events.. But that is because the clubs hosting the events usually have their own rules. Most of the attendees at any shot are usually from the host club. If you show up with something they haven't been shown and win even by a few points...Your a cheater and get dirty looks and such. I mean god forbid you have a Metal riser with carbon arrows..Oh crap you have a Rest and Plunger too!!! Thats not trad..you cheat!

This is why this topic is so important..Everyone needs to be on the same page.


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

haha.. Ive been told im in the wrong category because i shoot 3 under...no joke. To one archer a true Trad shooter should only be shooting split finger! Imagine if i told him how i was aiming...He would have had a panic attack and called the police!


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Definitely unfortunate!

The funny thing is that some of the "trad" shooters were shooting plungers and stabilizers on their wooden bows anyways, with carbon arrows. If someone complains because no one follows rules in the longbow div and actually uses wood arrows, I would understand that, but the funny thing is that even though they play according to a certain association's rules, if it's not used by one of them it's "cheating", which it's obviously not (only to those who a) aren't familiar with rules or b) aren't wise enough to utilize it for themselves).


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

IMO...it's all the fragile egos that cause the problems in our sport...whether it's the guy making poor excuses for loosing, the guy getting bent out of shape because he's been called a cheater or the guy who refuses to acknowledge the differences in mindsets but wants everyone to comply to his.

We surely can't please everybody...but we surely can acknowledge the different mindsets and how we can adjust competition so those mindsets are addressed without trying to please everyone.

Ray :shade:


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

centershot said:


> If the rule is changed, I will switch to String Walking..........I know that my shooting will improve. So is that an advantage, yes - can everyone else do it also, yes. Will they, probably not but at least they will have another excuse. I'm still on the fence but leaning toward SW - the arguments for equipment limitations not how you use the equipment makes a too much sense to ignore.


Agreed. Why would I wanna shoot my stick against stringwalkers? I'd buy a nice rig and learn stringwalking because I know it will give me an edge. Or.... I'd say this ain't Trad anymore with these fancy rigs and just quit coming to your events. Probably would do number 2. Why? Because I like it simple and I think alot of other Trad archers like to keep it simple. You dont need to keep addind classes, 3 classes is all you need. Longbow, TRAD, and RU. Just like IBO.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Humdinger said:


> I get this all the time at small local events.. But that is because the clubs hosting the events usually have their own rules. Most of the attendees at any shot are usually from the host club. If you show up with something they haven't been shown and win even by a few points...Your a cheater and get dirty looks and such. I mean god forbid you have a Metal riser with carbon arrows..Oh crap you have a Rest and Plunger too!!! Thats not trad..you cheat!
> 
> This is why this topic is so important..Everyone needs to be on the same page.


Try showing up with a rig that you've barely tuned and shot only once before, shoot it poorly and still finishing 50 points up on second (40 targets). Then being accused of cheating while you are holding the rules in your hand. This is my local 3D experience here on Vancouver Island. 
In WA3D there is Barebow and Instinctive (which has rediculous equipment/technique rules), locally they are grouped into RU due to numbers. I'm basically the only BB archer, although I've got at least 2 more gearing-up to compete.
Local rules also allow a second arrow for half points if you miss the first. Regardless of whether I hit or not I don't score a second shot on principle.

I was tempted to set-up a bow for WA3D "instinctive" division but then I realized how much more fun I have stringwalking my BB rig. Plus that is the bow I use for WA Field and for the provincial 3D championship.

I'm not a particularly good stringwalker. I could be beaten by a good gapper on any WA3D course (33yds and under). I can't put-up the scores seen in IBO RU or Trad or at the international level in WA. Around here the problem isn't a lack of stringwalkers, it's a lack of good shooters period.

That lack of good shooters is the same problem the NFAA is having. There are some VERY talented BB archers in the USA. Most avoid shooting NFAA events or they shoot with the BB compounds (which is a class on life-support and should be dropped).
NAA Field is gaining popularity and it only has 3 categories. BB, Recurve and compound. All those BB archers should be able to shoot in more than just 1 organization.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Beware they are out there !!!


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> IMO...it's all the fragile egos that cause the problems in our sport...whether it's the guy making poor excuses for loosing, the guy getting bent out of shape because he's been called a cheater or the guy who refuses to acknowledge the differences in mindsets but wants everyone to comply to his.
> 
> We surely can't please everybody...but we surely can acknowledge the different mindsets and how we can adjust competition so those mindsets are addressed without trying to please everyone.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Definitely agree about fragile egos, though I hardly think someone being irritated by being accused of cheating after shooting fairly and winning is a terrible example of "fragile ego", especially when the accusing is being done by the head of a local bowhunting organization. Those fragile egos lie within the elitist mentality of the accusing "trad"-ers.

The problem with trying to cater to everyone's mindsets is that you end up with 20 different classes and one person shooting them. I think it makes more sense to have fewer but relevant classes, obviously after discussion and consensus, and founded by logic - I personally think not allowing a type of nonsighted shooting based on where you hold the string is illogical and silly. I don't think there's a big need for multiple longbow divisions, (unless they're full already) - if I'm going to shoot a fast R/D longbow with a shelf and carbons, I'm prepared to go up against recurve shooters. If I was really seriously about LB shooting I'd get some woodies going but I'm not there yet. Similarly, if I was going to shoot barebow, I'd come prepared that stringwalkers do very well for themselves, and if I pick a method of aiming that's inferior to what they're doing, I need to adjust or pick a new class.


Gary: Wouldn't the trad police be driving Crown-Vics ?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Does anybody remember back when folks just brought and shot whatever bow they owned, and shot it anyway they liked, and even though everyone was well aware of who shot best and who shot maggies drawers and at the end of the day all knew that everyone who showed up was still a winner?

I don't deserve a vote or a say...but if I had one?...it would be...."Sure..Let'em shoot however they like."

The cream will rise to the top no matter how cold the coffee is.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

CFGuy said:


> Definitely agree about fragile egos, though I hardly think someone being irritated by being accused of cheating after shooting fairly and winning is a terrible example of "fragile ego", especially when the accusing is being done by the head of a local bowhunting organization.


I can totally understand being irritated but I said 'bent out of shape' which to me takes it beyond just being irritated. It's when someone becomes prejudice towards a whole group of people just because some idiot called him a cheater when he clearly followed the rules. 



CFGuy said:


> The problem with trying to cater to everyone's mindsets is that you end up with 20 different classes and one person shooting them.


That's EXACTLY why I mentioned NOT catering to everyone but basically just 2 primary mindsets. 



CFGuy said:


> I think it makes more sense to have fewer but relevant classes,


Totally agree!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:



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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Jinks, I think I'm older than you and I cannot recall a time when shooters didn't gripe about what the other guy shot IF they lost.  Mankind hasn't changed a bit it seems.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stone Bridge said:


> Jinks, I think I'm older than you and I cannot recall a time when shooters didn't gripe about what the other guy shot IF they lost.  Mankind hasn't changed a bit it seems.


Stone...I call'em "The 10%ers"...years ago I had one local here (who lived a county away) that was heck bent on beating me...there'd been times he'd see my truck pull in and he'd pack his bow and leave...another time?...he was shooting in our group and was flicking my earlobe while I was at full draw...I put it completely out of my mind and managed to pull off the shot and afterwards?...I didn't hafta say a thing as one of the others in the group told'im he was gonna kick his arse if he did it again...I just shook my head...and every shoot he would always look over my gear...once he even jerked a few arrows out of my quiver trying to find something...anything...he could get me gig'ed about...but...he was just one of many fine others...I pitied him for making a major butthead of himself...and that title was all his for the keeping. :laugh:

and well known by many. 

It all comes out in the wash man...I gotta stay focused on the positive things and folks in life...cause if I don't?...I myself become part of the negative 10%ers. 

But Not Today Thank God!


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

CFGuy said:


> I have no issue with the way longbow is set up and I don't think it's necessary to throw stringwalking in there as it's quite difficult (still don't get why 3-under isn't allowed for longbows with a shelf but that's another story), but honestly the notion that not stringwalking is more "traditional" is silly in my mind. You're not changing a thing about your equipment, only how you interact with it.
> 
> Is there a reason string walking shouldn't be used for hunting?



Absolutely no reason why stringwalking cannot or should not be used for hunting....I believe those that stringwalk do use it for hunting, they have merely decided on using another form of aiming, which when learned, is extremely accurate, providing you execute the shot, just like other methods...but it has had this stigma that it is for target only...I know many who use string walking for hunting....recurve, longbow, or compound...and have great success with it....and I have been trying to work on it with my shooting and hunting....

Scott Antczak is a pretty good shooter, stringwalking, and I am learning from his video...he uses basically the same setup when he hunts....and a couple years ago shot this beauty on public land from the ground! It can be done....and I know others who use it successfully....


As far as allowing it...why not? If you're good, you're good....being good involves more than just the aiming method....is it more accurate than gapping or instinctive...if the person practices and develops it...yes....but why penalize someone who chooses a shooting style to make them more accurate, both on the range and in the woods?

I'd hate to see so many classes added that there are less people shooting in those classes....but everyone is happy because they get to go home with a trophy....but it is a PC world we live in.....

I don't compete much..but if I show up...whatever my equipment dictates, I shoot that class....and try to win...whether my competition shoots split, three under, stringwalk, or whatever....if I get beat....I can sulk, or try to get better....

I think the problem is that SW is a visible aiming method....whereas instinctive and gapping are hard to determine from an observer....it is just a vicious circle...the split finger shooter cry foul at the three unders, the instinctive cry foul at the gappers, and now everyone does the same with SW......

I feel they should be included....if they win....I have a choice...adapt to their style, get better with mine...or be content to compete, improve, and enjoy it....no matter the results....yes, I try to win...but does it ruin my day if I don't....not if I shot the best I could with the style and equipment I choose to shoot....maybe I am just too old to worry about all of this....my practice and shooting are preparation for hunting...and if string walking gives me a better chance, or more confidence, when drawing on a deer...then I'm using it....JMHO....for what it is worth.....

There are good and bad instinctive shooters, gap shooters, and string walkers...the method does not insure success...the devotion and practice to the style does...the cream will always rise to the top......


Lee


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

fotoguy said:


> ....but why penalize someone who chooses a shooting style to make them more accurate, both on the range and in the woods?
> 
> I have a choice...adapt to their style, get better with mine...or be content to compete, improve, and enjoy it....


:thumbs_up


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Ray: Misunderstood what you wrote about mindset though I would agree that bowhunters can use SW as easily as anyone else. Bent out of shape over an isolated incident is one thing but being annoyed at the general mentality that seems to be found in many places is another, as well as being accused of cheating by the head of a provincial bowhunting organization. I'm a "trad" shooter but the word is beginning to leave a poor taste in my mouth the longer I'm involved with this, whether it's a macho bowhunter making slanderous accusations about a number of people or an ornery pro shop employee getting annoyed with me for asking why he decided to cut some of my shafts 1/2" shorter than the rest when it "doesn't matter". Has the same ring as the word "tactical" in the rifleshooting community, often about arbitrary limitations and look-cool-factor. The in group mentality is getting pretty annoying and while there are obviously unfriendly people in target archery too I haven't gotten the same impression nearly as strongly. Don't mean to stereotype those that aren't this way, I've met some fantastic people, just been an unfortunate observation while trying to be a part of that group.
I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone in particular - the mentality I speak of really grates me no matter where I find it.


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

I wish stringwalkers would worry about their class and leave ours alone. - lbg


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

longbowguy said:


> I wish stringwalkers would worry about their class and leave ours alone. - lbg


Basically sums up what I'm saying.

Did someone suggest allowing it in longbow class?


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

maybe if they fell in line with IFAA then everyone would be happy wouldn't they ?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Three things:
> 
> First:
> Those who don't want SWing in the NFAA Trad class: Please state the last NFAA State or National tournament you participated in and which type of competition it was (3D, Field, Safari, Indoor or Target).


I don't feel very strongly about it, I just don't see the sense of it. so that said, it was Redding, Western Classic Trail shoot, which ran in tandem with the 3d Nationals. I don't know if that counts, since when I registered, I was a bit short on funds, and only registered for the trail shoot, but I was on the course. I defer to your judgment as to whether I was there or not. The state 900 rounds, which I think was NFAA, I used a compound bow, which admittedly was not my hunting bow. Last time I did a hunter/field/animal round, it was my hunting compound bow. Reminds me that I should go try that once I get my gaps figured, with my recurve..



> This effects much more than 3D, which is really a small part of what the NFAA does. This effects events where bowhunting equipment is rarely or never seen. Events like Safari where 101yd shots are the norm, or Field where you shoot 80yds. None of the top competitors shoot the same set-up for all disciplines, but if we allowed SWing that would be no longer an issue. Saves me from having three sets of different limbs, plungers and arrows to go from Indoor to 3D to Field.


My bow hunting equipment is what I shoot, from near point blank to over 100 yards. Are there shoots where you aren't allowed to string walk? Every shoot I've been to allows me to shoot however I'm shooting. I guess I'm beginning to see the sense of what you're talking about, though, but what is different than simply string walking and simply competing in whatever class that lands you. You can consolidate your equipment that way too. I'm not trying to be contrarian, but I think I'm missing something about the motivation to make the change. Is there any shoot where string walking is simply not allowed? I always thought you could simply do it in bare bow.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> , but what is different than simply string walking and simply competing in whatever class that lands you. You can consolidate your equipment that way too. I'm not trying to be contrarian, but I think I'm missing something about the motivation to make the change. Is there any shoot where string walking is simply not allowed? I always thought you could simply do it in bare bow.


That's part of the irony for some people. 

They don't feel the current class they are allowed to shoot in is fair enough for them...but than choose to play down their technique when it's put into another class where it has a clear advantage. 

There's a reason why we can see SW/FW dominate certain types of competition yet very few bowhunters use it who want to make quick shots at a moments notice as a part of their goal/goals. 

SW/FW can be used very effectively for hunting but it can't hold a candle to Instinctive Aiming in regards to taking a shot quickly. The catch with that is...there's very few people who have the athletic ability to truly be accurate aiming that way. 

Ray :shade:



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

BarneySlayer said:


> Are there shoots where you aren't allowed to string walk? Every shoot I've been to allows me to shoot however I'm shooting. I guess I'm beginning to see the sense of what you're talking about, though, but what is different than simply string walking and simply competing in whatever class that lands you. You can consolidate your equipment that way too. I'm not trying to be contrarian, but I think I'm missing something about the motivation to make the change. Is there any shoot where string walking is simply not allowed? I always thought you could simply do it in bare bow.


Barney
I'll make an attempt to answer your question.

Mr. Sarns proposal is that he wishes the NFAA to change the TRADITIONAL class to allow Stringwalking. It currently does not. Pretty simple, however, as is the norm on controversial topics in the these forums, respondents tend to go off on many tangents. 

I've been a member of the NFAA for along time. Those of us that have been around for years have seen the steady decline in Field Archery over the years. Our monthly club shoots used to draw 3 to 4 hundred shooters, and that's just a club shoot mind you. These days were lucky to get 8 and most of those are us old farts who can barely make it around a field course.

The NFAA, as well as any other organization, really has several different levels of participation. There are the competitors such as MR. Sarns and a handful of other shooters who regularly post in this forum, and most of us know who they are. These guys, and maybe there are three dozen or so, compete at the highest level the NFAA has to offer. Really and truly there are only two or three major tournaments the NFAA still can claim. Even the Outdoor Championships has a pretty low attendance to what it used to be. This proposed rule change, really only effects them, that's why I say, let them decide.

I can assure you, if you show up at our State Indoor or Outdoor, and you want to stringwalk, nobody would give you a second look. I'd say most states are this way, they'd be happy to get your entrance fee. From my perspective, I just don't see a lot of archers showing up shooting field with their recurves and longbows, there are some, but not enough for a rule change like this to make a difference.

Now, I suppose in big states like California, Texas, up and down the West coast where apparently they have scores of traditional shooters, well, then careful deliberation about changing the rule would have to be done. 

And one more thing, I'm sorry, but with all due respect, those who want this because they want to get their set-up to one kit? I'm just not buying into that. Hell, when I really competed there's no way I'd use my 20 yard spot set-up for Field, heck I even had a different set-up for Chicago Rounds. These guys are going to buy the best equipment they can afford, and have dedicated set-ups for each discipline, whether stringwalking is allowed or not. If they want to win, and they want to set "world records" this is what they're going to do, regardless of the rules. Sorry, I've been to too many tournaments and been around too long to buy into that.

Look, from where I stand, the NFAA has a lot bigger problems than whether to let a few dozen guys stringwalk. This really shouldn't be an issue.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

CFGuy said:


> Basically sums up what I'm saying.
> 
> Did someone suggest allowing it in longbow class?


Really the same argument can be made. Same equipment, let people do it how they want. I'm not saying that argument is wrong, but it is a fundamental question of, what is the game that you want to be playing? 

If you're competing against string walkers, while it can be said that a really good gap or 'gapstinctive' or 'instinctive' shooter may beat a string walker, I don't think anybody can seriously say that string walking isn't an advantage, just like having the option of picking up the ball and running with it versus kicking it down the field solely with your feet is an advantage.

I was talking about it with somebody not involved in this forum, and they said that it sounds like the guys who string walk want more people in their class so that when it wins, it means more, and are looking at the 'trad' class with lower scores, and thinking, "How about them?"

I'm not saying that any particular advocates of putting string walking in the 'trad' class have that motivation, but it rings true in terms of human nature.

As far as the NFAA and participation, from what I've seen at my only truly large NFAA event, in terms of major participation, it is overwhelmingly about bow hunter freestyle, and when it comes to the top 'target' shooters, by overwhelming majority, freestyle. Don't get me wrong. I find Alan Eagleton more impressive than any of it, doing his string walking and chasing the compound leaders.

I think part of the confusing issue here is the name 'Trad' for the class. It's not whether string walking is 'traditional' or not. I think of it as the 'fixed nock/anchor unsighted division'. You can say that gap shooters have an aiming _system_, but string walking is a method where you have a sight. If it's really a matter of what is 'traditional', I seriously suggest we just allow basic fixed pin sights as well, and let everybody shoot the way they want. I'm really OK with that, seriously, and can't think of why anybody string walking would object.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Thanks Pokynoe,

makes perfect sense.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Really the same argument can be made. Same equipment, let people do it how they want. I'm not saying that argument is wrong, but it is a fundamental question of, what is the game that you want to be playing?
> 
> If you're competing against string walkers, while it can be said that a really good gap or 'gapstinctive' or 'instinctive' shooter may beat a string walker, I don't think anybody can seriously say that string walking isn't an advantage, just like having the option of picking up the ball and running with it versus kicking it down the field solely with your feet is an advantage.
> 
> ...


Colin, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread. The purpose of allowing stringwalking is an attempt to bring the Nfaa recurve shooters more in line with the international organizations so that we don't have to change our set up every time we go to one of those events. I think it would be a wonderful thing if there was one set of rules for all the orgs.It would also bring up the level of competition for the USA barebowers, who, until the last few years, have been pitiful in world competitions. It seems, as usual, that most people want to protect their own little niche rather than do what is best for archery, it seems it has been that way forever and will continue to be. Personally, I would like the world orgs. to not allow stringwalking then It would be fun to see all the gappers and instinctive shooters cry when they get beat by 100 points every tournament by archers who really do know how to gap so be careful of what you wish for.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

itbeso, I'm completely fine with that as well  However, I guess the follow up question is, what about USA archery? Is the NFAA the vehicle for international fit because it's simply the largest? (I don't know if it is, but it does seem to be the default for people not shooting olympic)


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

I need to look up more about regs methinks. Makes sense to have all major orgs the same.

Ray: Instinctive shooting comes down to athletic ability now? Or did I read that incorrectly?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

longbowguy said:


> I wish stringwalkers would worry about their class and leave ours alone. - lbg


Really? I am not a stringwalker, I am just trying to get more shooters out for tourneys. Being a Longbow guy then what do you care, you have your division that 1 person shows up and collects his trophy.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

I don't see the logic in adding SW to longbow really, if I'm not mistaken it's more difficult to do and I have yet to see a longbow shooter stringwalk. I don't think that's the point of this thread though.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

CFGuy said:


> I don't see the logic in adding SW to longbow really, if I'm not mistaken it's more difficult to do and I have yet to see a longbow shooter stringwalk. I don't think that's the point of this thread though.


Longbow was never part of this equation... NFAA Trad class, not longbow!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

CFGuy said:


> Ray: Instinctive shooting comes down to athletic ability now?


There is no 'now'. It's ALWAYS been that way for me! IF...a person understands what is involved with True Instinctive Aiming it's a no brainer. There are reasons why it's often compared to throwing a ball. 

Ray :shade:


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

rsarns said:


> Simple question...


Ren
Evidently your question is not so simple!:BangHead: Good luck, I hope your successful.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

pokynojoe said:


> Ren
> Evidently your question is not so simple!:BangHead: Good luck, I hope your successful.


It never is....  But appreciate everyone's input for and against


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I understand the benefit of standardizing rules between organizations, but you also need to realize that some of those organizations were formed because there was a market for something else. If changing the NFAA classes can really reap benefits in terms of having a domestic organization that lets us compete in ways that will better prepare us to compete internationally, I think that's great.

Now, forgive the diatribe, but I truly mean to be constructive.

If you really want to get more people to come to shoots, I think the real answer is outreach to the shooters who already shoot, who aren't already coming to those NFAA events. I'm going to give you a really big hint. Those people are not string walkers, they are not the top NFAA regulars, and they don't want to shoot against string walkers. But, they would love to shoot _with_ nationally recognized shots. 

Most traditional shooters I've met don't string walk, don't like the idea of allowing it the competitions they attend, let alone having their competition string walk. While I don't agree with the extent to which many of them are actually against string walking (I think they should open their mind to it, maybe even try it, I know i'd like to play with it sometime), I respect and acknowledge that they have their preferences, and it is not my or anybody's place to tell them that their preferences are wrong, more make them irrelevant. However, it is possible, and I think a good idea, to change their mind to at least consider it viable and sensible for others. Baby steps...

These people are not the stereotypical 'trad' shooters that often get bandied about as straw man arguments about why people need to shoot targets (in the same way others do), to improve their skill. They do shoot targets. They are fiercely competitive. They turn in their score cards. They just don't shoot indoor 300 rounds, 450 rounds, 900 rounds, or other more standardized, easy to measure competition. They find such events artificial, boring, and irrelevant. I'm not siding with that perspective, as I think all scenarios are opportunities that offer specific advantages in improving certain aspects of archery skills. But, don't delude yourself, these circles have some fantastic target shooters, but they prefer to focus on hunting-oriented scenarios, often unmarked yardage, and it's not all 30 yards and less. Elk targets at roughly 60 yards, you have to guess, and the top shooters are landing their arrows. They, too, consider the typical IBO ranges short.

There are DROVES of them, and while some of them may not measure up in the eyes of the established target world in terms of how they might shoot by the more conventional standardized testing methods, a few of them might surprise you and hand you your own butt if you're not on top of your game, and go to play theirs.

So, one might ask, how do we outreach to people with fundamentally different values. Well, I don't think the values are _fundamentally_ different. Nor are their goals. Everybody wants to be a better shot. Everybody likes competing. Everybody wants to have fun doing it. Everybody wants to advance the sport of archery. The only difference is preferences for the game. Anybody who really wants to do this should talk to Mike Rash and the IBO. 

The IBO has actually done this kind of outreach, with the Western Traditional, and got just the beginning of the kind of turnout that is possible. The strict limitations on some details like certain kinds of arrow fletching didn't go over so well, but all things considered, people actually took to it. The IBO representative, Mike Rash, not only reached out to Orestimba field archers, but has also made the effort to network with other clubs, including (so I've been told) working with the President of San Francisco Archers for future collaboration. I plan to push it next year to members of both the clubs I belong to. It's not rocket science. It's simple down home hand shaking, introductions, and listening to people, and then providing something that appeals to them.

Think about it. If you create an environment that people don't find appealing, and them blame them for not showing up, discount their interests because they didn't show up, and further isolate the event from anything they'd ever want, what else could happen? Where are these new archers supposed to come from? People who just watched archers in a movie? Really? how many string walkers you see in the movies? Seriously, give me _one_ example.

Then, look at what IBO did. It started with a dedicated traditional tournament, probably because many traditional shooters feel uncomfortable shooting with compound shooters, for many reasons we really don't need to get into now, but can discuss at length later for anybody interested. But, I would emphasize, that I don't think that condition is permanent, it's just a matter of ice breaking, mutual respect, and ettiquette. You can argue about that, but did IBO? Nope. They recognized it, and accommodated it. Consider what happened. You had Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers, Matt Potter, Dave (ze german) (I'm so sorry I can't remember your last name dave), who I would consider established shooters of well known repute of the NFAA traditional world. You also had, in the same tournament, Tim Hart (who I believe won whatever division he was in), Josh Porter (who won the IBO recurve division), Enoch Hale (who I think took second to Josh, and went toe to toe with Matt, an unapologetic string walker, shooting instinctively, during the shoot off whatever prizes were up for grabs), all of whom probably never attend an NFAA event, and never really attended an IBO event before. 

The IBO, on the west coast, just brought together two sections of very different cultural circles. Did it occur to anybody wanting to recruit a larger pool of representatives that when people meet, and get to know each other, that they are more open to each other's ideas and methods? Somebody who shoots well instinctively might actually transition to string walking pretty well, if they _want_ to learn something new, as opposed to feeling like they're being coerced to do it. Flies, honey, anybody?

If the NFAA would possibly address the desires of this group, like the IBO has done, they could have LOTS of participation. If they don't, the IBO is going to simply eat their cake. Consider, at the NFAA 3D *NATIONALS*, in the male adult trad recurve class, I think we had 5 people. In my opinion, looking at the scoreboards, they were pretty good shots, and I have great respect for them all. In fact, I just met Erik Schwarz (spelling) who I think took second there, or first depending on the accounting, and I really look forward to shooting with him again, maybe even B.S. between targets, great example of a good guy and why it's nice to meet new archers, but I'm rambling. 

Point is, if you had half of the traditional shooters that show up for Chamberlain Ranch, or the Rancho Neblina shoot, or the Gene Foster traditional rendezvous, ad nauseum, you would not only have many times the traditional shooters registered, you would have enough traditional shooters, enough really good traditional shooters, to turn the heads of some of the compound crowd. "Look mom, no sights, and shooting a _hunting bow, and he got a 21 on that 80 yard elk!"_I loved the NFAA Redding shoot. Want to get compound shooters into traditional shooting? Show them traditional shooters not only doing it well, but doing it in numbers. I loved the variety of distances. I loved the long distances. I think that, as Don Whitney promised, it made me a better archer to expand the range of my experiences. I'd really like to get more people to attend it, but... it is not appealing to most traditional shooters, but it _should_ be, and it _could_ be.

So, to end my soapbox diatribe, I have an idea.

Collapse all of the non-sighted, non-compound classes into three (or 4 if you want to keep a primitive class), and among most of these classes, follow the lead of the IBO. Correct me on the details, but basic idea...

(optional)Primitive (no laminations, wood bow, wood arrows, no shelf or rest, etc)
Longbow (if the limbs don't touch the string except at the tips, call it good, not cut past center, wood arrows)
Recurve (no stabilizer, no sights, personally I allow weights so long as it fits within that ring, but you get the idea, essentially old NFAA 'Trad recurve'. Personal opinion is to allow rest and plunger, but whatever.
Recurve unaided. you can do whatever you want with it, with limitation of X" stabilizer, no sights. String walk to your heart's content. Maybe adapt the rules of this class to be the common link between that common class that the top NFAA shooters want which will fit in with international standards. You can have a pasta strainer, and MP3 sound card, and GPS on your bow for all I care (and I will shoot with you, because I want an MP3 sound card on my bow so that my bow can talk to me after each shot, and tell me how great I am!)

Those in the NFAA who really want to gain participation in the traditional circles, reach out to clubs that have traditional archers, ask them what they want (or just copy the IBO playbook), and arrange to have shoots with draw, and sell the NFAA _brand_. (BTW, this just reminded me, that I've still got to join the IBO, in addition to the NFAA, which I will do immediately). Work with people to make things, happen, and they will. If anybody wants my help to try to connect dots, connect people, whatever, I'd be thrilled to be involved.

So, am I nuts?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

As one of those "serious" shooters who does shoot targets but doesn't go to any shoots... 

I had a big long post here but deleted it because it's really simple. I think what's missing is a local venue to get people started and interested.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Stone...I call'em "The 10%ers"...years ago I had one local here (who lived a county away) that was heck bent on beating me...there'd been times he'd see my truck pull in and he'd pack his bow and leave...another time?...he was shooting in our group and was flicking my earlobe while I was at full draw...I put it completely out of my mind and managed to pull off the shot and afterwards?...I didn't hafta say a thing as one of the others in the group told'im he was gonna kick his arse if he did it again...I just shook my head...and every shoot he would always look over my gear...once he even jerked a few arrows out of my quiver trying to find something...anything...he could get me gig'ed about...but...he was just one of many fine others...I pitied him for making a major butthead of himself...and that title was all his for the keeping. :laugh:
> 
> and well known by many.
> 
> ...


20 years or so back I lived in the Chicago area and belonged to an active club that hosted a lot of shoots. There were quite a few "traditional" shooters. Most were snap shooters and none of them could hit anything. There was a hand full of us who traded the top few spots back and forth.

I don't remember anybody bothering anybody or complaining about how they shot. These days I read about all the creative writing and bickering. LOL and I just want to jump right into that, right?...No.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Barney
Clearly your a very thoughtful person, and I can tell this by your post above. But I think it would be informative for you (and everyone else) to take a few minutes and actually read the shooting "styles" on the NFAA website. It doesn't take long. 

As far as "collapsing the non-sighted, non-compound classes in to three or four"? I believe we currently only have two: TRADITIONAL and LONGBOW.

Let me just make a few points about the NFAA:

First off, the NFAA is not a 3D organization, oh sure, they have sectionals and you can go to Yankton and you can go and shoot Bigfoot from a hundred yards away, but that's really not what the NFAA is all about. Our club received it's charter from the NFAA in 1956, we're a FIELD ARCHERY club, that's what we do. That's really what the NFAA is all about. 

Second, Ren's proposal, really only effects a small cadre of individuals, I've state my thoughts on this previously.

Third, As it pertains to participation and increasing the numbers, well, I have a few thoughts about that. I'm not worried about increasing the participation at the top level, which is really what Ren's proposal is all about. There will always be a group( and apparently it's increasing in size, albeit modestly) that will put in the time, spend the money and compete at the two or three venues that are offered by the NFAA. That's why I've said, whatever they decide, I'm for it.

Lastly, the real problem is that nobody wants to shoot field. Now let me be clear, I'm talking from the perspective of someone who's a club officer, responsible for seeing the bills get paid, the grounds and targets are maintained, the tournaments get organized and advertised, the shop equipment stay in good repair, and overseeing our NASP program. I get very little time to shoot! Up until about five or six years ago, there were five field archery clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home, now there is just one, ours. The real problem as regards "participation" for those of us at the "grass-roots" level isn't whether to allow string-walking, or not(it's really a non-starter from my perspective) or aligning our classes with the IBO, I really don't see that happening for a number of reasons, but I can't go into that here, it's increasing participation in general, from ANY type of archer.

Now, as I've said before, this seems to be a regional thing. You've yourself stated that you're aware of "droves of traditional shooters" that would love to shoot field, if we just gave them a class to shoot in. I got'a tell ya Barney, I'm just not seeing these "droves" of traditional archers anywhere, even remotely, around here, and I visit a lot of clubs. Even the 3D clubs, and there's five of them I shoot at throughout the year, just not seeing 'em.

As far as "outreach" to get these traditional archers to show up? Well, we did that. We've put on several traditional only shoots over the last three or four years, very modest entry fees, provided a nice lunch, and had some pretty nice awards. You know what happened? We lost our asses! Hardly anybody showed up.

Field archery ain't 3D; 3D ain't field archery, that's the real problem, not stringwalking.


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

I'd like to see a competition where all styles had to be shot. Trad long bow, recurve , freestyle release. Freestyle limited, bowhunter freestyle, bowhunter freestyle limited, bowhunter, barebow. Whoever won that would undoubtedly be archerys MVP!!! In my opinion Tom Daley, Ben Rogers, and yours truly would have a good shot at that title . Add to the list of any shooters you know who not only shoot all these styles but who can do them well!!!!!! This competition probably will never happen but it's fun to imagine.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know...in my "humble" opinion the hard part is learning to get your arrows to fly the same way. Aiming method and equipment changes can certainly help with either accuracy or precision (they are NOT the same) but that isn't the hard part.

Have them do it well with 65 pound bows and then I'll be impressed.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

pokynojoe said:


> Now, as I've said before, this seems to be a regional thing. You've yourself stated that you're aware of "droves of traditional shooters" that would love to shoot field, if we just gave them a class to shoot in. I got'a tell ya Barney, I'm just not seeing these "droves" of traditional archers anywhere, even remotely, around here, and I visit a lot of clubs. Even the 3D clubs, and there's five of them I shoot at throughout the year, just not seeing 'em.
> 
> As far as "outreach" to get these traditional archers to show up? Well, we did that. We've put on several traditional only shoots over the last three or four years, very modest entry fees, provided a nice lunch, and had some pretty nice awards. You know what happened? We lost our asses! Hardly anybody showed up.


I don't "droves" of trad shooters either. Beyond that, I think the competition has to be the attraction. I don't know about anybody else but I can shoot all I want right outside my back door and I have lunch at home.

Lunch is a fine gesture but I've been feeding myself for a long time. Free camping in an open field without so much as a shade tree is more like torture than an attraction...though, I guess, the thought is there.

Maybe I'm just simple but, to my way of thinking, if you want to have a competition, you need competitors. There might be people who will show up for the campfire hand holding but I wouldn't think that necessarily makes for much of a shoot.

I could just be ignorant because I haven't competed in about 20 years but I read of state "championships" with only a couple shooters in a class? Once in a while I come across the scores of "big shoots" and you have a handful of guys scoring and a bunch who showed up just to grow the pot. Clearly, they knew they had no chance of winning before they even left home. 

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the fun in that. If you only know a couple of guys that can give you any competition, skip the BS and invite to your place for a shoot. Call it a world championship if it pleases you.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> So, am I nuts?


NOT AT ALL! 

You basically nailed what I've been describing all along :wink:

If an organization wants to truly increase their numbers...they need to address the mindsets of the majority of archers they're currently not reaching...rather than alienate them. 

Ray :shade:



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There is no 'now'. It's ALWAYS been that way for me! IF...a person understands what is involved with True Instinctive Aiming it's a no brainer. There are reasons why it's often compared to throwing a ball.
> 
> Ray :shade:
> 
> ...


I have a hard time seeing where "athletic ability" is so important, far more to do with the brain than musculature. Unless you're talking about athletic ability in the sense of hand-eye coordination.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

CFGuy said:


> Unless you're talking about athletic ability in the sense of hand-eye coordination.


EXACTLY!!! :thumbs_up 

Ray :shade :

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

That would make pinball athletic..


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Arrowwood said:


> That would make pinball athletic..


Please explain??? 

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

> Please explain???


I guess I don't necessarily associate eye-hand coordination with athleticism. Some sports, sure. I'd have a hard time calling instinctive aiming more athletic than another aiming system. More eye-hand coordination? Maybe, I don't know. But I would think drawing and holding a forty or fifty pound bow long enough to hold the sight on an olympic target would require more of anything I woud call athletic. Anyway, we're straying far off the topic here.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

MGF said:


> I don't "droves" of trad shooters either. Beyond that, I think the competition has to be the attraction. I don't know about anybody else but I can shoot all I want right outside my back door and I have lunch at home.
> 
> Lunch is a fine gesture but I've been feeding myself for a long time. Free camping in an open field without so much as a shade tree is more like torture than an attraction...though, I guess, the thought is there.
> 
> ...


MGF
Sir, I'm afraid I really don't know how to respond to this, and your quotation of part of one of my posts. Clearly, you're an individual who knows what he likes; and likes what he knows. You've made it quite clear in a number of your posts that you have no desire to compete, no desire to travel, as a matter of fact, I believe you stated in one of your posts that you don't even like to drive to town. So to answer your question "Am I missing something?" In your case, clearly you're not. 

There are those of us, however, who are interested in promoting the sport. One of my most proudest accomplishments was not a championship, or a perfect score. It was organizing, promoting and running one of the old Cabelas shoots. We had over 1500 archers in attendance, and I can't remember receiving one negative comment from any competitor. The complements I received, and good fellowship mean more to me than any trophy, bowl or plaque I have ever received.

Clearly you have no interest in any of this,so I'll finish by saying the following:

To those who understand where I'm coming from, no explanation is needed. To those who don't, no explanation will do.

Good luck to you sir.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Just some "Shared Observations" here...

1. This thread was asking about allowing "The Aiming Method" of string walking into NFAA trad classes.

2. It has digressed into debate that has including condescending remarks regarding those who aim instinctively.

now please bare with me here folks cause I believe this is where a lot of the distention is derived from...

3. Those who lack the ability to aim instinctively will never understand nor gain any benefits from it...then mock what they don't understand.

and here's the biggy....

4. "Geography": as it's not "how" or "what" we choose to do or when we do it but.."Where" we do it...and "Why" we do it..check it out...

Pete Shepley (of PSE) had his feet held to the fire by the hunting ethics cmte when he debuted his new "Long Range Hunting Sight" with flip calibration out too 120yds...as the man then explained...

"Bowhunting Archers located in dense wooded areas such as the southeast where a normal shot distance for them might be 15-20yds and a long shot might be 40yds cause the woods are so thick they are challenged to even see that far?...40yds is a gift shot for Bowhunters in the wide open spaces of the mid-western states with most shot opportunities being taken at 50-60yds...what the long range sight does is give those bowhuntesr an opportunity to put a 2nd arrow in their prey as they always seem to stop and look back at a distance of 100-120yds away."

Now that's what Pete Shepley said...and it makes perfect sense to me if I take into account that there are bowhunting brothers in the mid-west that have to do whatever they can such as take cover in ground blinds and whatnot just to hope that they can get within 50yds of a deer...and now here's where I relate the two...

In the mid-west where the deer can run but they can't hide?...and you "Can Take Your Eyes Off Of Them" for a moment to count stitches and do a crawl?...hey man...hats off...do whatever ya gotta do...but here in the southeast?...where the woods are so thick that if you take your eyes off the deer for a second you may never see him again?...I'll be danged if i'm gonna use a style of aiming that requires I look down to count stitches and move my tab...besides...I shoot a 37# Bow in places I'm hard pressed to see more than 25yds..in which case aiming "Intuitively" seems more fitting as with a 37# bow?..if he's more than 20yds he's getting a pass anyways.

But silly me...I'm talking "Bow Hunting" here aren't I?...as the discussions don't seem to get ridiculous until the scorecards, targets and trophies come out...for some strange reason. 

btw...never thought I'd say this but I'm actually starting to miss OSB. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Arrowwood, 

Thanks for explaining your opinion. 

IMO...shooting any bow requires at least some athletic ability that involves hand and eye coordination...BUT...again there's a reason why throwing a ball is used to try and explain Instinctive Aiming and NOT any of the other aiming techniques. 

IMO...True Instinctive Aiming is NOT holding anchor and adjusting the sight picture until it looks right. It is executed in basically one fluid motion as a pitcher throws a ball. 

Again...there are reasons why this technique is at a disadvantage under many target competition circumstances which are being exposed here in this thread yet has advantages while bowhunting. 

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Jinks, I missed where anybody disparaged instinctive aiming, but on the topic, it is allowed in nfaa trad. I shoot field almost everyday this time of year and I just don't see how it could be done instinctively. I definitely don't care how anyone aims though - s.w.. f.w. gap, or my new favorite "moon walking"!... It seems to me they should all be allowed. If you think one works better than another, use it - simple.

Ray, I thought you were saying instinctive is more athletic or something. I've seen some seriously non-athletic people aiming instinctively, pretty well too. Maybe the subject for a different thread?


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Arrowwood,
> 
> Thanks for explaining your opinion.
> 
> ...


Really semantics more than anything else, I see your point, but it's athletic the same way catching a ball is athletic or ping pong is athletic. Fine motor skills are a rather small part of what makes an "athletic" person. Describing it that way comes off as somewhat elitist as if it's some sort of superior aiming method unachievable by all but the best. But I digress...

Arrowwood: Good post basically sums it up. I'll let the more organization familiar work out the logical course of action here but that makes sense.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Arrowwood said:


> Ray, I thought you were saying instinctive is more athletic or something.


Yes...in the sense it requires more hand and eye coordination to hit a target when compared to the other aiming techniques that consciously involve adjusting the arrow or some other aiming reference to the target. 



Arrowwood said:


> I've seen some seriously non-athletic people aiming instinctively, pretty well too.


I would bet if they spent as much time throwing a ball as they did learning to aim Instinctively with a bow...they would be pretty good at throwing a ball :wink:



Arrowwood said:


> Maybe the subject for a different thread?


Sure

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Simple question... Allow string walking and face walking in the NFAA Trad class? Leave Longbow alone, but just bring the NFAA Trad class into alignment with IBO RU and USA Archery BB recurve? Thinking of writing the proposal and getting my director to submit it. However I would like some opinions. It is just an aiming system.


Not familiar with the current rules for these classes because……I am still fairly new to this equipment after a 35 year stint with wheelbows.

As I progress during my return to less sophisticated bows, no sights, mechanical releases, etc., my thoughts include a return to competition more often. That said, IF I were to actually participate in the tournament world again I would need to find a venue that allows me to utilize my stringwalking off the shelf without the use of stabilizers or sights.

If it means that I would have to compete against others using clickers, stabilizers, elevated rests and plunger buttons, then I guess that is what I would have to do. I have taken many a sound whippings between my few sweet victories during my time shooting wheel bows, so I know how to accept them gracefully. 

Being new again in the stickbow ranks, I am still pretty surprised that stringwalking is frowned upon by so many. Some of us are less than perfect, we need an aiming method. I find it odd that those who have the "gift", and can hit whatever they want, at any distance, just by becoming one with the bow, would deny us handicapped participants the opportunity to donate our entry fee to them?

BTW, even when I sent 200 arrows a day, 365 days a year downrange for decades while competing with wheelbows, my REAL agenda was to be a better bow hunter. That is still my real agenda today. I will NOT change my aiming method to compete in paper or rubber target events because my aiming method is the best one for "me" where bow hunting is concerned.

That was my long version answer, the short one is that I agree with you rsarns, string walking and/or face walking are just aiming methods. They are not bolted onto a bow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> In the mid-west where the deer can run but they can't hide?...and you "Can Take Your Eyes Off Of Them" for a moment to count stitches and do a crawl?...hey man...hats off...do whatever ya gotta do...but here in the southeast?...where the woods are so thick that if you take your eyes off the deer for a second you may never see him again?...I'll be danged if i'm gonna use a style of aiming that requires I look down to count stitches and move my tab...besides...I shoot a 37# Bow in places I'm hard pressed to see more than 25yds..in which case aiming "Intuitively" seems more fitting as with a 37# bow?..if he's more than 20yds he's getting a pass anyways.


Jinks,

Stringwalking doesn't take anymore time to execute then any other technique when you aren't worried about competition rules. All you do is place a nock at your 20yd crawl and gap from there. I'd say it would work just fine in the tight woods where you are and it would give you a nice aiming reference without having to compromise form with a high anchor.
That is how several hunters I know set-up their bows.

I tell you this much: if all my hunting shots looked like the shot on an NFAA 3D or Field course, I'd be stringwalking for sure.

-Grant


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

pokynojoe said:


> MGF
> Sir, I'm afraid I really don't know how to respond to this, and your quotation of part of one of my posts. Clearly, you're an individual who knows what he likes; and likes what he knows. You've made it quite clear in a number of your posts that you have no desire to compete, no desire to travel, as a matter of fact, I believe you stated in one of your posts that you don't even like to drive to town. So to answer your question "Am I missing something?" In your case, clearly you're not.
> 
> There are those of us, however, who are interested in promoting the sport. One of my most proudest accomplishments was not a championship, or a perfect score. It was organizing, promoting and running one of the old Cabelas shoots. We had over 1500 archers in attendance, and I can't remember receiving one negative comment from any competitor. The complements I received, and good fellowship mean more to me than any trophy, bowl or plaque I have ever received.
> ...


Sorry, I guess I did too much rambling and never made my point clear. The point I was trying to make was that I don't think minor rule changes, different class divisions or even a nice lunch will draw a lot of new people. I was essentially agreeing with some of what you said.

My main point over my last couple of posts is that the real missing ingredient in some areas and for some people (like me) is a local shooting venue. I used to compete when I had a local club that was regularly hosting shoots.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Jinks,
> 
> Stringwalking doesn't take anymore time to execute then any other technique when you aren't worried about competition rules. All you do is place a nock at your 20yd crawl and gap from there. I'd say it would work just fine in the tight woods where you are and it would give you a nice aiming reference without having to compromise form with a high anchor.
> That is how several hunters I know set-up their bows.
> ...


I do not consider myself a stringwalker because I don't compete that way. But I do exactly what Grant points out when I hunt - I have one marked 20 yard crawl on my hunting bow and gap off that mark. Once you see an animal come into view your hand goes to the 20 yard mark seemingly without any real conscious effort. You set your drawing hand in an instant and you're set to go. A 20 yard crawl with any reasonably flat-shooting recurve has you point-on from about 17 to 23 yards. Any distance closer or farther is dealt with by simply gapping a few inches. It's a truly affective way to hunt and a wonder why not many others do so.

I hunt with a 64" Bear Super Kodiak of 45#. All I do is bareshaft test at my 20 yard crawl and call it good. Broadhead flight is perfectly fine doing this. I find it very comfortable and natural using the arrow point as a sight. Very much like pointing a shotgun. Under stress it's much easier doing this than depending on instinctive gap setting or whatever you call that kind of shooting. Give this method one week of trial in the backyard and you might never hunt any other way.


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

I live in Idaho, 
I cant get people to shoot against in the trad divisions ANYWAY...
I show up and MOST of the Time shoot in the BB classes just to have folks to play with.
I do not like the SW in the Trad class, for my area, we all shoot in the BB class anyway?
It is a proven aiming system, it works and works well. It can be put in the TRAD divisions and you will still shoot against yourself.
NO IFAA shooters, NO IBO PERIOD and the closest NFAA Field course is in Grangeville 6 hours away..
It was put in the BB classes years ago, because of the success, people that use it score higher.. The SW's have to shoot from the BB stakes, because they shoot better scores,, 
BB recurve is better class that the SW's in the trad class.. heck shoot against the compound guys, you want a challenge anyway


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

good points all. pokyno, thanks for the perspective. i didn't realize how much the nfaa limited themselves to the blue and white spots. i can't say that most of the traditonal archers i know would get excited about shooting circles... oh well. sometimes there just isn't a fit.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

BigCnyn said:


> I live in Idaho,
> I cant get people to shoot against in the trad divisions ANYWAY...
> I show up and MOST of the Time shoot in the BB classes just to have folks to play with.
> I do not like the SW in the Trad class, for my area, we all shoot in the BB class anyway?
> ...


There is no BB recurve class in the NFAA.... I do not SW.... but those that do have to shoot against the BB compound guys now...


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Boy where is Sharp when you need him !


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Gary , he is instinctively staying away from this thread ...


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> Really? I am not a stringwalker, I am just trying to get more shooters out for tourneys. Being a Longbow guy then what do you care, you have your division that 1 person shows up and collects his trophy.


A fair question. I also compete and have won championships with recurves. And when I compete with a longbow I am not the only one. And I don't accept trophies any more. I have had enough of them. I can always use a nice belt buckle. I think the way to get more shooters out is to provide classes and targets they can do well with using their standard tackle and aiming methods. - lbg


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Arrowwood,
> 
> Thanks for explaining your opinion.
> 
> ...



I am curious about the portion of your post that I bolded Ray? Why would an aiming technique NOT be OK for some target shooting situations, yet be fine for hunting situations? I am confident you would agree that accuracy is MUCH more important when hunting than it is when punching holes in paper or rubber targets.

I could see the technique you describe being a better fit for shooting at moving targets(non-live targets), or for some type of shooting that requires cutting an arrow loose in a hurry, but if you are saying that is not a good enough system for paper, then I fail to see how it could be good for hunting?

BTW, I have seen a few people shooting instinctively that were pretty darn accurate, thus my confusion on your statement.


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## jbw59 (Jun 27, 2010)

OK, I'll chime in. There should be only 4 stick bow divisions. Longbow with wood arrows, Barebow which is just that, a BARE bow, recurve off the shelf, Freestyle Limited, anything except clicker, level, sights and peeps, and Freestyle Unlimited which allows the rest. As far as string walking, I look at it this way. Telling an archer HOW to shoot his bow is like the USGA telling Tiger Woods HOW he is allowed to swing his club. If you want to string walk or gap shoot, go for it. I can't do it but that's my issue. If you can, do it. Too many rules too many divisions.


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## jbw59 (Jun 27, 2010)

Oh and one more thing, drop the "Traditional" label. Too many interpretations.


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

"There is no BB recurve class in the NFAA.... I do not SW.... but those that do have to shoot against the BB compound guys now..." RSARNS

Thats my point... ADD a recurve BB, and Then we shoot from the Compound stakes..

I do not SW, 
I compete in NFAA indoor 300, trad and BB shooting a recurve 
been to the Idaho OPEN,
been to the UTAH OPEN Competed in NFAA target faced tournaments, and the FITA face tournaments
I compete every year in The IFAA state outdoor unmarked 3-d
Drove 500 miles to an IBO shoot,, again the only one in my class, RU
WE do not have a field range close, the Pocatello field course fell into disrepair years ago..
I have been the ONLY shooter many times in the sanctioned shoots in my class, shoot some of the sectional stuff , just for the chance to shoot against SOMEONE, and have still been the only one? 
HECK we cant even field a group in the TRAD or BB class now,, These guys do not want to compete. Shoot for fun.

What stake is this new SW trad class going to shoot from?



I do not think we need to fix a wheel that is not broken..


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I think what this comes down to is the guy next to me going to have an advantage over me and how I shoot the bow. Or am I going to have the advantage because my aiming system is better than yours? Or are some of more dedicated to shooting a better shot? Lets vote and move on I need to practice.
Gary


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

After reading through this thread, I think I'm going to give string walking a serious try. I'm going to shoot from the trad stakes, use a smallish crawl and reasonable gap on the close range shots. I'll go to the same couple of shoots I do each year and if anyone has a problem with it, I will not post my score. After all I do this for me and if shooting with a small crawl will help me shoot better, I have a hard time not using it. If it doesn't work out, then back to my old gap methods. Grant you have talked me into it - equipment restrictions: Yes, technique restrictions: No.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

BigCnyn,

I understand your frustrations, it's me and 3 other guys (that shoot together every Tuesday) that go to the local shoots. Typically we are the only shooters that post a score so we end up 1, 2, & 3. Oh well, we have a good time-leave the plaques for next time and move on. While it would be fun to have some of these bigger shoots to go to, I certainly would not trade that for not having deer, elk, antelope, etc. all within 100 miles of home. In our Tuesday group we have a string walker, gapper, instinctive and gapstinctive shooter in the mix - nobody cares what the other is doing and on any given target anyone can have the best shot. If one of us all the sudden started whipping up badly on the others then I assume we would change over to what he is doing, but as it stands there is no real clear cut best way to shoot for us. I have never spent the time and money involved to go out of the area to shoot but it sounds like it would take a lot of both to get much more than what we do every Tuesday anyway.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

centershot said:


> BigCnyn,
> 
> I understand your frustrations, *it's me and 3 other guys (that shoot together every Tuesday) that go to the local shoots.* We are the only shooters post a score so we end up 1, 2, & 3. Oh well, we have a good time-leave the plaques for next time and move on. While it would be fun to have some of these bigger shoots to go to, I certainly would not trade that for not having deer, elk, antelope, etc. all within 100 miles of home. In our Tuesday group we have a string walker, gapper, instinctive and gapstinctive shooter in the mix - nobody cares what the other is doing and on any given target anyone can have the best shot. If one of us all the sudden started whipping up badly on the others then I assume we would change over to what he is doing, but as it stands there is no real clear cut best way to shoot for us. I have never spent the time and money involved to go out of the area to shoot but it sounds like it would take a lot of both to get much more than what we do every Tuesday anyway.




I hear this a lot while reading on various traditional forums. We must be lucky here in southwestern PA……..it is common to have 20 or more stickbow shooters at a regular 3-D shoot dominated by compound shooters, and we have at least two "traditional" only shoots within a short distance every month, and they are very well attended.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bigcyn.... WHy not shoot from the adult stakes... you have to at any NFAA sanctioned sectional or above shoot anyway. I myself refuse to shoot from the kiddie stakes. If its ok for adult trad to shoot from the youth ... then why do the youth shooting trad have to shoot from the same stakes? LOL


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

I have not seen any one else compete in the IFAA shoot AT MAGIC Valley july shoot , but, me,, so why change the rules? Shoot how you want at the local level. I paid my dues, and paid my entries, so until ,shoot the classes that are set up and shoot with your competition..

HECK, lets make 1 CLASS we can all shoot against the PRO UNLIMITED guys and see how well that flies...

SW is very good AIMING system, they have a precise hold, and 90% have marks of some kind on the tabs, stitches whatever..THEY should shoot against Compound guys !!
Wheres the line now.. I am in if I can , keep a precise , laminated sheet on my person to mark my gaps out to 80 yards , ?


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

WE DO !!
We have 3 stakes, compound, Trad and kiddies.. 
90% of the time I shoot with the BB guys cause that's all that's there... I shoot the compound stakes cause I CAN...
What Stake are you going to push the TRAD guys to if you allow SW< you going to shoot from the kiddie stakes then?

Just create a BB recurve and lets dance... Shoot any way you want Gap, SW, ?? Lets leave the TRAD gang in there own division, and out of our way?

NO one here shoots the trad stakes now? that wants to SW?
Hell I still fight with the guys here ,cause I kick there hinny and I get called a cheater cause I can Gap?
I still have "The Instinctive " guys that I have to follow shooting a Back quiver full of arrows, and missing with 75% of the arrows, looking for them behind the targets..?
I see this as a no win situation,


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

I do shoot from The BB (BIG BOY) stakes..lol

I wished we had the numbers.. WE do not
this will drive away more from shooting in the NFAA -IFAA
CENTER, why don't you guys shoot in the IFAA shoot and the NFAA shoot?

Its about 50 to join a year and 35 a tournament?
A yearly due,


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks for this thread, it's been informative. The word "traditional" as it relates to archery leaves a fouler taste in my mouth every day.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

CFGuy said:


> Thanks for this thread, it's been informative. The word "traditional" as it relates to archery leaves a fouler taste in my mouth every day.



:lol:

I don`t allow it to mess with my tastebuds CFGuy, but I do shake my head in wonderment.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Usually a big family camping trip around Redfish Lake over the 4th weekend..........might not happen this year so I may be able to make it to Magic this year. We shoot the trad/kiddie stakes and have a hard enough time with that! Bigboy stakes at local tournaments mean a lot of 40-50+ yard shots, trad/kiddie stakes are more in the 25-40 yard ranges(we can hit those once in a while). The Magic shoot is usually toned down because it is a State shoot. If I stringwalk (I sure don't want to shoot from the long stakes) then there is not a class for me anyway (the point of this thread to begin with). I think the shoot/lift costs $20 without all the NFAA, IFAA stuff - we are certainly not in your league anyway, so it's a waste of money.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

CFGuy said:


> Thanks for this thread, it's been informative. The word "traditional" as it relates to archery leaves a fouler taste in my mouth every day.


I think that the 'trad' and 'traditional' should be excised. It confuses the issue. When it comes to the rules for competition, it's merely a matter of sorting for the purpose of the _game_. After all of this, I have decided.... it doesn't matter to me  

While it makes sense, I think, from a functional standpoint, to have a longbow, recurve, and *anything goes except a full olympic rig, non-compound, adjective) class system (like IBO), there are realities that seem to make the NFAA totally irrelevant for the average recurve archer. They are primarily oriented towards compound shooters, which I'm sure is where the bulk of the money is, particularly if you look at where the Professionals compete. I don't blame them. What is available is primarily utilized by the fairly elite circles in unwheeled archery. If somebody in the NFAA actually wanted to change that, that'd be great, but it would take a whole lot more than a class shuffle. 

So, if that's not going to happen, let the people to whom it really matters decide. I'm going to shoot what I shoot, where I shoot, and whatever class I am in, and whomever I'm shooting with, so be it


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## vaguru (Jan 2, 2003)

In regards to the OP's question, I would like the NFAA rules to stay as is, for now. The idea of IBO RU shooters coming out is a non issue as far as I'm concerned. There are less than 10 IBO RU shooters at the triple crown events. Changing a rule in NFAA, with hopes of getting 10 more competitors is nonsense.

If we are going to change any rules, lets change IBO Trad, to match NFAA, ASA, IFAA, and allow rests and plungers. I personally don't care if we allow the 12" stab though.

I have been shooting IBO and some ASA events, including Triple Crown, Worlds, Spring Nationals, Pro-Ams, and Classics the past 4 years in a different class, not Trad or RU. But.....I just started shooting Trad this past January, and have done very well in state shoots and Sectional shoots. 

My current rig is the "target" recurve, 25" riser with long limbs, set up for NFAA Trad including a rest and plunger. I gap, or have arrows for point on. I also learned String Walking, took about 2 hours, not very difficult to learn, and very effective!

I won my states IBO Championship shooting RU, but gapped instead of SW and used a 12" stab, due to my desire to shoot the Trad Worlds in the Senior class. RU there is different than standard IBO rules, no SW allowed, and only a 12" stab.

So.....IBO already has 2 different "rules" for RU, depending on age class, and if it's a Trad event or a "real" IBO event. 

In conclusion, I would rather see a change in the IBO Trad class, allowing rests and plungers, than changing the NFAA rules to allow SW. I voiced just this opinion to the President, Vice President and 2 board members of the IBO last weekend at the 2nd leg of the IBO Triple Crown. What I can tell you is, my responses were less than warm. I will pursue this change, but highly doubt it will be entertained! 

In the end it won't matter what I think, as some with more influence will get what they desire, and I'll live with it. JMHO


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

vaguru said:


> In regards to the OP's question, I would like the NFAA rules to stay as is, for now. The idea of IBO RU shooters coming out is a non issue as far as I'm concerned. There are less than 10 IBO RU shooters at the triple crown events. Changing a rule in NFAA, with hopes of getting 10 more competitors is nonsense.
> 
> If we are going to change any rules, lets change IBO Trad, to match NFAA, ASA, IFAA, and allow rests and plungers. I personally don't care if we allow the 12" stab though.
> 
> ...


Isn't it just the stab length that differs between the worlds and trad worlds, SW is allowed in both. I am not sure why the stab rules differ but I'm sure someone will.
In the cold light of day, if all the regs change to allow rests and plungers in trad class, where does that leave the guys who shoot off the shelf. They will have no home. I am all for a BB and RU class being the same across the federations but iBO seem to have the trad class equipment right IMHO.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Isn't it just the stab length that differs between the worlds and trad worlds, SW is allowed in both. I am not sure why the stab rules differ but I'm sure someone will.
> In the cold light of day,* if all the regs change to allow rests and plungers in trad class, where does that leave the guys who shoot off the shelf. They will have no home. I am all for a BB and RU class being the same across the federations but iBO seem to have the trad class equipment right IMHO.*


Yep...good point


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

Guess nobody here knows anyone who can shoot great in all classes. Oh well I'll add another. Rusty mills. He is excellent in all the classes he shoots in


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## vaguru (Jan 2, 2003)

Big,

Please go read the Trad Worlds Rules again. RU does allow SW and face walking, clickers and only a 12" stab. In Seniors, a 12" stab, no SW and no clickers. I believe they also don't allow face walking, but it is not specifically called out. 

I tried to copy and paste the rules, but my computer wouldn't let me do it for some reason.

And, as far as where does it leave the guys shooting off the shelf? I dunno know, where are they for NFAA with a modern recurve?

It just seems like there are rules, and then when someone with "pull" wants something different, more to their liking, the rules get changed.

I would just like to see conformity amoung the different organizations, so I don't need more than one bow setup to shoot them all. Currently, IBO is the only org that requires shooting off the shelf in "trad", as far as I know.

Forty years ago, all we had was "stick" bows. Then we all strived to improve our accuracy. We did what ever in order to do so. We added raised rests, plungers, sights, clickers and even releases. We had mag risers, aluminum and fiberglass arrows, take down bows both 2 and 3 piece. We shot what we brung.

I dunno who "coined" the term "trad", but it probably came from those younger with only compound experience, and therefore their interpretation of what "trad" should be. So....now we have to have different classses to accomodate each group, good, bad or indifferent.

Again, I am just looking for some conformity amoung the different shooting organizations, or even within the same organization. I already own too many bows(mostly compound, but 2 "trad" with probably another for off the shelf), and was trying to make a point.

I'm a shooter, and now my interest has gone "trad", maybe even FITA. Just trying to limit the dollars this retired guy has to spend to shoot NFAA, IBO and IBO Trad, ASA, etc. Again, JMHO


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

There is no Senior RU class, just like there's no Senior TRD, Senior MLB, or Senior LB. Senior is it's own unique class with it's own rules. Jon is right; the only difference in RU between open IBO shoots and the traditional IBO shoots is the stabilizer rule.


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

99 percent of longbow, recurve , archers around here don't even keep score.......
Let alone go to a tournament. I switched to sights and stab so atleast I could go
to a outdoor Fita and see some recurves shooting.......:moviecorn


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think that the 'trad' and 'traditional' should be excised. It confuses the issue.


"Trad" and "instinctive" are IMO ridiculous words. The nature of their subjectivity leads to plenty of logical fallacies and confusion.

I really think org's should do away with the term in the first place and be more descriptive.

Doubt it will happen but I think something like Oly, bare bow, modern recurve/longbow off the shelf, and historical bow (i.e. materials reflective of historical bows, wood arrows, etc but any style you want, i.e. longbow, eastern recurve, etc).

From the little I've seen of general population shooting, there are a TON of wood/glass recurve/longbow shooters out there that wouldn't really jive with barebow shooters/would likely be intimidated; there is a HUGE market right now for young adults/teens shooting Sage type bows off the shelf with carbons or otherwise. I think it would be a great way to attract new and younger shooters (very basic equipment setup), especially if they were made aware of it being an option, and it really doesn't seem like there's much of a viable place for them to fit in unless they change equipment.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bigjono;1067466941
In the cold light of day said:


> i shoot off the shelf, with or without a plunger, and can say that i don't care. Most every traditional shoot i've been to allows a rest and plunger. It might get you a little teasing, but the ibo shoot is the only one i've been to where anybody cared. Just my perspective anyway.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

David CCamach 6 said:


> Guess nobody here knows anyone who can shoot great in all classes. Oh well I'll add another. Rusty mills. He is excellent in all the classes he shoots in


I know david camacho and ben rogers!


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## vaguru (Jan 2, 2003)

J. Wesbrock,

You are right, there is no "special" class for each discipline for seniors, but.....the Senior class does have it's own "special" rules. Why?

I will conform, but don't understand why if I shoot in the RU class SW/facewalking and clickers are allowed, but not in the Senior class.

And, why is there a difference with the stabilizers between, as you stated, open IBO shoots and traditional IBO shoots? 

Seems like IBO should have the same rules for both. JMHO


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