# Vane shoot-off... AAE Wav vs. Gas Pro vs. Elivane



## limbwalker

Finally got in my new arrows and vanes, and it was a windy afternoon, so I set up a vane test.

Arrows were all Nano Pro 450's w/ 120 grain tungsten points and Beiter out-nocks.

Vanes were the S3 Elivanes I've developed immense confidence in over the past 18 months, Gas Pro 2" and the new AAE Wav's.

I shot from a sheltered position so I wasn't being blown around by the wind. Arrows met a stiff crosswind as soon as they left the bow, to the target at 70 meters. It was windy enough that I was aiming off in the black, and that's something I seldom ever have to do. So it was a good test.

First four ends, the AAE Wav's outperformed both the other vanes. Three arrows fletched with the Wav's held 4" groups every time. That was slightly better than the Elivanes, and a LOT better than the Gas Pro's. I had high hopes for the Gas Pro's, but end after end, they were the worst group every time. 

In a 90 degree crosswind, the Wav's seemed to hold the best groups.

Then I switched to a downwind target, with about a 10 degree angle from over my right shoulder. The Wav's still held great groups, but that's where the Elivanes seemed to catch up with them, and even pass them a bit.

I will continue to compare the Elivanes with the Wav's as the preliminary results were encouraging with the Wav's. I am done with the Gas Pro's. They didn't group well at all for me.


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## GilG

Nice report John! Looking forward to more tests.
Were the Wavs attached with a helical clamp or an offset straight clamp?
Thanks!


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## limbwalker

Right helical. It's the only clamp I've ever owned since 1986! ha, ha.

And by the way, if you use the AAE glue they recommend, you'd better have that vane in the position you want it in within a second or two, or else you'll be scraping it off with a knife. 

A nice change of pace from the old days of scrubbing flex-fletch vanes and hoping they stay on.


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## Cephas

John, if you don't mind a dumb question, what's the helical? Or the performance difference between helical and straight with offset?


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## limbwalker

Helical - Think DNA Helix. 

Straight offset is just that. A straight clamp that is offset a few degrees.

I've always preferred helical, but that's proabably because of my many years in the traditional archery world.


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## Mika Savola

Your test sounds promising in favour of the Wav's, considering that your bow is tuned for elivanes ?


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## c-lo

Just got a box of them myself when the folks from LAS recommended them, aside from their performance I thought the price was very fair also.

Thanks for your review.


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## woodpecker1

what weight bow were you testing?


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## Scott.Barrett

John...

This will sound crazy, but do you ever envision a time where archers will have arrows with different fletching setups for different wind conditions?

SB


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## Lostnthewoods

I am very interested in these WAV vanes for you daughter. I would be interested in seeing if there is a performance difference between straight fletch, offset and helical. I can't imagine it is easy to set these helical on a skinny arrow like a 1214 or 1416. Maybe I just need more practice fletching...


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## massman

Lostinthewoods.

Using a helical clamp of a straight clamp is going to be of little difference on this sort a vane. Over a longer fletching on a different size shaft may see a difference. Rest assured on a small diameter shaft with 2" vanes, you would find it very difficult to measure any difference.

Regards,

Tom


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## massman

John,

Do you have a grain scale available to you? I'd love to see what each arrow weights with the different fletching measured as a unit.

Regards,

Tom


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## edgerat

FWIW, when comparing a 1deg offset and 3deg helical with Wave vanes on my compound arrows, I noticed a 12" drop at 101y, lots of drag, even with such a short vane, i was surprised there was that much.


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## Vittorio

Pls note that Elivanes needs to be set helical for better performance.

Then, to compare vanes, you have to retune the bow each time for each type of vanes as dynamic of the arrow changes a lot depending from venes and their angle. So, to compare vanes just shooting them in one set up only will only tell you which vanes are more matching that specific set up at that moment... 

The correct procedure should be:
- fine tune the bow as much as possible for one specific vane
- shoot several 90/70 mt series in different days, and record the impact area
- repeat the process for each type of vane
- compare impact areas 
Then some comeptitions in different wind conditions for each different set up wil tell you (hopefully) the answer.

Comparing vanes is a much longer process than comparing shafts, that is a much longer porcess than comparing limbs, that is amuch longer proces than comparing risers .
It took 3 months of testing to Michele to decide which vanes were OK for him to be used on Nano Pro a the beginnind of 2011, including a couple of World Cup tournaments ...


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## chrstphr

Elivanes told me that the P2s set to helical will act the same as P3s and give same P3 performance. 

Chris


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## julle

uhm... vittorio, do you mean offset of helical? I would think it's pretty hard to make a helical with mylar vanes.


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## Bob Furman

Vittorio said:


> Pls note that Elivanes needs to be set helical for better performance.
> 
> Then, to compare vanes, you have to retune the bow each time for each type of vanes as dynamic of the arrow changes a lot depending from venes and their angle. So, to compare vanes just shooting them in one set up only will only tell you which vanes are more matching that specific set up at that moment...
> 
> The correct procedure should be:
> - fine tune the bow as much as possible for one specific vane
> - shoot several 90/70 mt series in different days, and record the impact area
> - repeat the process for each type of vane
> - compare impact areas
> Then some comeptitions in different wind conditions for each different set up wil tell you (hopefully) the answer.
> 
> Comparing vanes is a much longer process than comparing shafts, that is a much longer porcess than comparing limbs, that is amuch longer proces than comparing risers .
> It took 3 months of testing to Michele to decide which vanes were OK for him to be used on Nano Pro a the beginnind of 2011, including a couple of World Cup tournaments ...


Ok, i give up, just how do you fletch a Eli vane helical? Like it's not hard enough as is?


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## limbwalker

Vittorio,

With all due respect, your method is appropriate only for full time, world class archers who have the time and proficiency to determine such subtle differences.

For the rest of us, the test I did is much more real world and practical. Most of the archers on this forum simply won't be able to test any product as well or as long as Michele can.

As for tuning, the weight difference between the three vanes are so insignificant that it only leaves different angles of attachment and different wind conditions and directions to test. 

A person could chase their tail for months or years and never show a statistical difference in the results.

At some point, each of us has to do whatever satisfies their curiosity enough to reach a level of confidence in their equipment, within their level of ability and the time (and money) they have available to them.


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## LittleJP

I'm now very tempted to try these, due to the cost vs mylar vanes.


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## Robert43

I am thinking of giving them a try & at least you use a fletching jig . I think I hated about spin wings was shuch a pain in the arse fletching them


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## elarock

Robert43 said:


> I am thinking of giving them a try & at least you use a fletching jig . I think I hated about spin wings was shuch a pain in the arse fletching them


I just installed my first set of spin wings and it was much easier than I expected once you get going and develop some sort of system. I also got a package of Wavs, but haven't been able to get them on because up till now I've only used my EZ Fletch jig which doesn't work on Wavs since the base is too skinny. I'm waiting on a clamp fletching jig to be delivered now. Lol

On a side note I used my ez fletch to mark lines on my arrows for the SW which worked out pretty well.


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## horndog

*Caution: Science*

After thinking about this from the start of the AAE wave thread I came to the conclusion that due to the difference in windy days and calm days there is a silent variable not discussed. Gyroscopic procession, that is when a force acting upon a spinning mass has a 90 degree reaction to that force. So when you shoot a spinning arrow with a cross wind there is a tendency for the arrow to pitch up or down dependent to where the wind is coming from. Granted you are dealing with small forces because of the small weight of the arrow and the relative slow rotational acceleration. Just enough to enlarge the group on a windy day. The AAE wave vanes rely on a different method for stabilizing the arrow. They create drag by flapping the same way a flag flaps and there is no spinning of the arrow and therefore no gyroscopic procession. AAE wave vanes would also be better indoors rather then spin vanes because the flap as soon as they are released rather waiting to after the oscillation stops.


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## Warbow

horndog said:


> After thinking about this from the start of the AAE wave thread I came to the conclusion that due to the difference in windy days and calm days there is a silent variable not discussed. Gyroscopic procession, that is when a force acting upon a spinning mass has a 90 degree reaction to that force. So when you shoot a spinning arrow with a cross wind there is a tendency for the arrow to pitch up or down dependent to where the wind is coming from. Granted you are dealing with small forces because of the small weight of the arrow and the relative slow rotational acceleration. Just enough to enlarge the group on a windy day. The AAE wave vanes rely on a different method for stabilizing the arrow. They create drag by flapping the same way a flag flaps and there is no spinning of the arrow and therefore no gyroscopic procession. AAE wave vanes would also be better indoors rather then spin vanes because the flap as soon as they are released rather waiting to after the oscillation stops.


Limbwalker glued the WAV vanes on as _helical_, so I think your hypothesis is flawed. They are not little parachutes that don't cause spin, AFIK. All the tested vanes/wings provide both drag and spin.

The point about gyroscopic precession is interesting. I'd love to see it it quantified. Perhaps Limbwalker will create a torque-induced precession wind tunnel...


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## horndog

Warbow said:


> Limbwalker glued the WAV vanes on as _helical_, so I think your hypothesis is flawed. They are not little parachutes that don't cause spin, AFIK. All the tested vanes/wings provide both drag and spin.


Though your theses is flawed I do appreciated your interest in the subject. Do to your argumentative tone Let me remind you of the difference between theory and fact. My theory is based on thought of the subject and concussion in my mind based on my life experience.



Warbow said:


> The point about gyroscopic precession is interesting. I'd love to see it it quantified. Perhaps Limbwalker will create a torque-induced precession wind tunnel...


If Einstein were to blindly follow your demands we would have no theory of relativity. My post was to report my theory. If you require more then prove or disprove it. But your attempt to discredit it is a failure.


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## Warbow

horndog said:


> Though your theses is flawed I do appreciated your interest in the subject. Do to your argumentative tone Let me remind you of the difference between theory and fact. My theory is based on thought of the subject and concussion in my mind based on my life experience.


Oh, good grief. If you think my post was an argumentative post rather than a well qualified and polite one you must be new to the internet.






But if you want to get pedantic, you should be more attentive to your own post. You don't have a theory, not if we are talking about the scientific definition, you have a **hypothesis**. Your claim that helically fletched WAV vanes don't cause spin is certainly not a theory in the scientific sense. Theories have broad explanatory power. Electricity is a theory. That germs cause disease is a theory. That the earth's crust moves is a theory. "WAVs don't spin" is an unproven hypothesis.



horndog said:


> If Einstein were to blindly follow your demands we would have no theory of relativity. My post was to report my theory. If you require more then prove or disprove it. But your attempt to discredit it is a failure.


For someone who is trying to bash me with science you don't exemplify its precepts very well. The theory of relativity is a **theory** in the scientific sense. It is stupendously self-aggrandizing for you to compare yourself to Einstein and your claim about WAV vanes to the theory of relativity.

Your proof that helically fletched WAVs don't spin is what, exactly?


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## horndog

I do not care to argue with any one who uses "fringe logic" after putting words in my mouth, so to speak.


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## Warbow

horndog, just tell us this. What is your proof for this claim?:



horndog said:


> *AAE wave vanes* rely on a different method for stabilizing the arrow. They create drag by flapping the same way a flag flaps and *there is no spinning of the arrow*


Here's an example of what proof would look like. Here is a video of spin wings from back in 2009 by current WAV vane shooter Jake Kaminski.






If you have high speed showing arrows helically fletched with WAVE vanes landing at the target with zero spin please post it.


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## limbwalker

As I said in my reply to Vittorio, I have neither the time or the expertise to test vanes to the level that an archer like Michele or Jake would. Most folks don't. So the best we can do is to set up tests that satisfy our own curiosity, and then go with those results. My test was of two wind directions with vanes applied according to the manufacturer's specifications. I would have liked to have put a little more offset on my AAE Wav's, but that was as far as I could go and still get good contact between the foot of the vane and the shaft - which was just a few degrees. The way I set up, tuned and fletched all three arrows is how I normally would prepare an arrow, so it's a fair test for me, and that's all that matters to me since I'm the guy who signs the scorecard. 

As for fletching, honestly, can fletch a dozen spin wings or Elivanes nowdays as fast or faster than I can fletch a dozen vanes with a jig. So I don't consider that a big deal. 

And since the same dozen arrows have worn my Elivanes for over a year without ever having to repair a single vane, I don't think durability and ease of maintenance is an issue now either. It just comes down to which ones group better for me.


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## horndog

Warbow said:


> horndog, just tell us this. What is your proof for this claim?:


I said nothing of how they are mounted by OP and BTW at 3 degrees of angle it would take 10 feet to rotate one turn at perfect conditions. 100 % stiff vanes travailing through water but being the real world this is not the case. So if I was referring to OP there would not be any gyroscopic force involved.


There was a clear disclaimer in the title "Caution Science". So if you don't know what that means go to the weather forum and claim there is no global worming and stop with this nonsense!


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## Warbow

horndog said:


> I said nothing of how they are mounted by OP and BTW at 3 degrees of angle it would take 10 feet to rotate one turn at perfect conditions. 100 % stiff vanes travailing through water but being the real world this is not the case. So if I was referring to OP there would not be any gyroscopic force involved.
> 
> There was a clear disclaimer in the title "Caution Science". So if you don't know what that means go to the weather forum and claim there is no global worming and stop with this nonsense!


Uhm, horndog, you don't get to misuse basic science precepts like what constitutes a theory vs. a hypothesis or what the burden of proof is and then imply that *others* are science deniers. You might do well do heed your own warning, "Caution, Science."

This thread is about the products and tests in the OP, so if you make a claim that states that WAV vanes do not spin arrows then that relates to the OP and Limbwalker's testing procedures. You still haven't made anything clear. You still haven't provided any proof or any sound basis for your claim that WAV vanes do not spin arrows. And you are goal post shifting and changing your story, saying that 3 degrees will spin an arrow and that there is no gyroscopic force involved in that same arrow. By your own, revised, argument **no vaned** arrow has any gyroscopic force since 3 degrees is pretty much the maxium angle for a vane.

Once again, what proof do you have that WAV vanes do not spin arrows? If you had any proof I highly doubt you'd as evasive as you've been in your posts to me.

Just for fun, and slightly off topic, here is a promotional video for Blazers, featuring lots of high speed video, all showing that you are wrong about vanes not causing spin, or enough spin for there to be gyroscopic effect.


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## horndog

You see and hear what you want! Now we are comparing hunting vanes designed to spin to target vanes that are floppy. You would know this if you had some. I've been shooing the wave vanes for a while they don't work like the blazers. If they did then OP and every other target shooter would be using them with their recurve. But alas they are made for compound. Speaking of spinning I like the way you spin my words. I think this is better than the movies! I'll make a batch of pop corn and grab a beer and what for the next episode.

BTW If you really watched that video you would know that the blazers spin using an air foil created by the 3 degree mounting the waves are not stiff enough to spin that way. They spin only using the 3 degree mounting. So lets do the math: So 360 degrees (one rotation) divided by the mounting angle of 3 degrees equals 120. That is the number of 2" segments that is in one rotation. So take 120 and divide by 12(one foot) and you get 10 feet for one rotation.

My popcorn is getting cold.


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## Warbow

horndog said:


> You see and hear what you want! Now we are comparing hunting vanes designed to spin to target vanes that are floppy. You would know this if you had some. I've been shooing the wave vanes for a while they don't work like the blazers. If they did then OP and every other target shooter would be using them with their recurve. But alas they are made for compound. Speaking of spinning I like the way you spin my words. I think this is better than the movies! I'll make a batch of pop corn and grab a beer and what for the next episode.
> 
> BTW If you really watched that video you would know that the blazers spin using an air foil created by the 3 degree mounting the waves are not stiff enough to spin that way. They spin only using the 3 degree mounting. So lets do the math: So 360 degrees (one rotation) divided by the mounting angle of 3 degrees equals 120. That is the number of 2" segments that is in one rotation. So take 120 and divide by 12(one foot) and you get 10 feet for one rotation.
> 
> My popcorn is getting cold.


horndog: You claim to be science-based. Science is about evidence. *What is missing from every single one of your posts is any proof of your claim that arrows fletched with WAV vanes do not spin.*

So, again, what is your proof that arrows with WAV vanes do not spin?


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## knotdodger

Limbwalker, 

I just fletched up my cx maxima's with the stiff AAE 2 inch vanes, glue was AAE max bond. For
my barebow set up. They fly nice, but it probably don't matter much what vane I used , because
it is just for 3-d. Max 30 yards. Anyway , how in the world do you get these off with out 
messing up the shaft???? I may just use wraps next time, thanks.


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## knotdodger

The glue gets hard to get off.


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## horndog

Warbow said:


> horndog: You claim to be science-based. Science is about evidence. *What is missing from every single one of your posts is any proof of your claim that arrows fletched with WAV vanes do not spin.*
> 
> So, again, what is your proof that arrows with WAV vanes do not spin?


So it's time to take you ADD meds and we will go over this again! Remember the Math were it was determined that wave vanes if mounted at 3 degrees would spin at a rate of 10 feet per revolution. And again I originally posted a Theseus not fact believed or not! Better than that prove are disprove it!


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## barking mad

Limbwalker,

thank you for sharing the test results. This is most intriguing.


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## rsarns

Love the scientific BS that is going on, yet a complete lack of grammar. 


John,
Thanks for the tmely testing of these vanes as I have just received the WAV vanes to give them a try.


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## Warbow

horndog said:


> So it's time to take you ADD meds and we will go over this again! Remember the Math were it was determined that wave vanes if mounted at 3 degrees would spin at a rate of 10 feet per revolution. And again I originally posted a Theseus not fact believed or not! Better than that prove are disprove it!


Ad hominems like claiming people are on meds are against the rules, horndog.

Again, what is missing from your post is any proof that WAV vanes do not spin arrows. 

Here is your claim:


horndog said:


> The *AAE wave vanes* rely on a different method for stabilizing the arrow. They create drag by flapping the same way a flag flaps and *there is no spinning of the arrow* and therefore no gyroscopic procession. AAE wave vanes would also be better indoors rather then spin vanes because the flap as soon as they are released rather waiting to after the oscillation stops.


Now you are trying to shift the goal posts to the other side of the field and keep them in the same place at the same time. You can't have it both ways. Do you now retract your original claim which you so vociferously argued for, claiming that to not accept your post (because Science) is analogous to denying climate change, or do you now claim that WAV vanes *do* spin arrows?


BTW, the math you are trying to use to claim that WAVs don't spin arrows because they only spin based on the angle of their fletches actually shows a 200fps .25" diameter arrow with a 3 degree offset spins at a theoretical rate of approximately 9,600 RPM. 



> To complete one revolution, the arrow travels a distance of 2.pi.R/Tan è, where R is the radius of the arrow and è is the amount of offset in degrees and pi is ~ 3.1415926.
> 
> The time (t) for one revolution is thus t = 2.pi.R/VTan è, where V is the velocity of the arrow
> 
> revs per second = 1/t, revs per minute = 60/t = 60VTan è/(2.pi.R) (_just plug in your own values for V, è, and R_)
> 
> Here is a worked solution for you to compare the accuracy of your value against...
> The rate of spin is very nearly 3,200 rpm for a 1/4" diameter arrow travelling at 200 ft/sec with 1 degree of fletch offset, and close to another 3,200 rpm for each extra degree of offset (_up to a max of about 10 degrees_).


http://www.freewebs.com/johnske/fletchingmatters.htm

Wow! That is sure a fast spinning non-spinning arrow.


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## limbwalker

Hey lookie! Warbow found someone to play with. ha, ha.  

Just teasing 'bow, but sometimes you do make it too easy for folks. 

rsarns - I totally agree.

Knot, I considered using wraps for mine, but I didn't have any handy so I just fletched to the carbon. To get them off? Well, first you hope you never need to! but if I do, I take a dull knife and scrape them off. Yes, it does scrape the carbon a little, but I try not to overdo it.


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## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> Hey lookie! Warbow found someone to play with. ha, ha.


It's as if someone dangled string in front of a cat :embara:


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## horndog

Maybe when the European members wake up they can make some meaningful contributions at more then a third grade level.


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## Arcus

horndog said:


> Maybe when the European members wake up they can make some meaningful contributions at more then a third grade level.


I wondered how long it would take to lose the adult discourse.


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## horndog

Arcus said:


> I wondered how long it would take to lose the adult discourse.


 Lighten up - it's archery


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## InKYfromSD

John, thanks for the test and posting your results. How do you have your "knobs" set on your Bitz jig? I've got mine set at dead center and am having trouble getting full contact on small diameter shafts.


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## limbwalker

I know my top one is about 1/8" to the right. Can't recall the bottom one. Just loosen them and adjust until you see the foot make good contact along the full length of the vane. You'll find a sweet spot there somewhere.

horndog, I'm glad Warbow is here for you.


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## Old Sarge

knotdodger said:


> The glue gets hard to get off.


Old trick...try using a potato peeler to get the fletch off. Will take the fletch off and will not cut the shaft like a knife if you slip. After most of the base is off stick the end of the shaft in a can of Acetone and leave it in there for about 30 sec. Remove and wipe clean removes the vane residue and cleans the shaft all at the same time. No fuss, no muss.
Hope this helps.


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## horndog

limbwalker said:


> [...]horndog, I'm glad Warbow is here for you.


I feel honored to be directly addressed by the Mayor of this sub forum. And yes Warbow is here
trying to match wits with me but has failed miserably. It was too embarrassing for him for me to keep going.


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## Warbow

horndog said:


> I feel honored to be directly addressed by the Mayor of this sub forum. And yes Warbow is here
> trying to match wits with me but has failed miserably. It was too embarrassing for him for me to keep going.


Wow, just wow. See Dunning–Kruger effect.

horndog, your on-line persona has part of Dr. House's personality down pat, now if your persona could just nail the charm, the intelligence and the science part of Dr. House your homage would be dead on.

Sigh...


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## limbwalker

You must be one smart cookie alright.

Unfortunately for you horndog, the "smartest person on the forum" position has already been filled. Long ago in fact. Possibly there is another forum who needs a resident genius? 

Thanks for derailing what was intended to be a useful thread.


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## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> You must be one smart cookie alright.
> 
> Unfortunately for you horndog, the "smartest person on the forum" position has already been filled. Long ago in fact. Possibly there is another forum who needs a resident genius?
> 
> Thanks for derailing what was intended to be a useful thread.


Hey, now, at least I write coherently. :tongue:

No need to thank just horndog, Limbwalker. I can cop to going off on a tangent :embara:

Still a useful thread, in spite of horndog and myself. Your tests mean a lot. You are a known quantity. Methodical and independent. The Limbwalker(tm) Brand.

The actual smartest person I've dealt with here was a mod (maybe still is) and a professor with an odd sounding handle. He is one of those inhumanly competent people. And on the assumption that you are ribbing me, specifically, I'll stipulate that like the majority of people, I consider myself above average... :mg: (But far, far from the smartest person here, just more of a contrarian.)


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## edgerat

Nerds ruined another useful post... :shade:


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## Vittorio

8:23AM - local time

Jus tot point out that helycal for me meant probably offset for some of you. Considering the diameter of a Nano Pro, possible practical difference is quite limited. Both my son and daughter are using P3 connecting one marked line to the other, so offset is more for Michele than for Carla, as her 900 Nano Pro are very very small.


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## limbwalker

Great info there Vittorio. I think this is where I went wrong with the Gas Pro vanes. I fletched them straight. I will re-test with them offset as you describe.

This is a real problem, I feel, with the AAE Wav vanes as there is only so much offset you can apply - even with a helical clamp - and still get good foot contact on the shaft. So they will always be limited to just a few degrees on real skinny shafts unless AAE or someone else comes up with a "super helical" clamp for skinny shafts and short vanes.



> Hey, now, at least I write coherently.


Sorry Warbow, but I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to our old friend.


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## HikerDave

limbwalker said:


> Great info there Vittorio. I think this is where I went wrong with the Gas Pro vanes. I fletched them straight. I will re-test with them offset as you describe.
> 
> This is a real problem, I feel, with the AAE Wav vanes as there is only so much offset you can apply - even with a helical clamp - and still get good foot contact on the shaft. So they will always be limited to just a few degrees on real skinny shafts unless AAE or someone else comes up with a "super helical" clamp for skinny shafts and short vanes.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Warbow, but I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to our old friend.


The offset in degrees to achieve a given arrow rotation rate is inversely proportional to the diameter of the arrow shaft. (If my mental math is on, the arrow rotates once per 180 diameters per degree, using the approximation that sin( x ) = x for small angles. Then surface rotation per unit length is 2 pi / 360. If the unit is arrow diameter, then to achieve pi travel takes 180 arrow diameters.

I don't think that it takes much offset to make a nano spin like mad. Works out to around 4000 rpm per degree of offset.


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## Rick McKinney

John, Your testing method is very similar to mine. I like to test the two or three different types at the same time but with a few rules. 1. I would use three arrows of each fletch and shoot them in a sequential order. Sort of like 3 of the gas-pros (group A), three of the AAE's (group B) and three of the elivanes (Group C). I would shoot using the old FITA rules of shooting, the groups as 1st end (A,B,C), the 2nd end (C,A,B), the 3rd end (B,C,A) and then start again. This way you eliminate the strong shots for just one group or weak shots for one group. As for the tune, I would do exactly as you have. Leave it alone at this time. The other two vanes have to prove to be at least as good to continue or essentially it is not worth fooling around with. Once you determine that these AAE vanes might be better, then you can run the test again with just one exception. You tune for the AAE vanes. If it is a better vane, it will really perform better once you tune for it. You run the same test as you did before and see if the results are better or worse. This is your 2 tests to make sure that your first test was not just the "newness" or "wow" results. The wrinkle in this testing procedure is that you really need to test different angles to determine if one performs better with a radical helical or straight or something else. It does take a long time to really determine what is best, but then you are working for a point an end advantage which is worth it if you want to play in the big leagues. However, since you are training at the same time, you are accomplishing more than just shooting arrows.


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## luckycharlie

limbwalker said:


> Great info there Vittorio. I think this is where I went wrong with the Gas Pro vanes. I fletched them straight. I will re-test with them offset as you describe.
> 
> This is a real problem, I feel, with the AAE Wav vanes as there is only so much offset you can apply - even with a helical clamp - and still get good foot contact on the shaft. So they will always be limited to just a few degrees on real skinny shafts unless AAE or someone else comes up with a "super helical" clamp for skinny shafts and short vanes.


There is a bohning tower that will put a 3 deg helical on small shafts. Seems to work fine.


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## limbwalker

Thanks Rick. Yes, a lot of training and testing go hand-in-hand. For some folks, if it's an interesting reason to shoot more arrows, then it's a good thing.

I'm fortunate to have a location where I can stand on concrete and shoot from a position totally sheltered from the wind, but still have my arrows in an exposed wind for virtually the entire 70 meters. And I can turn around and shoot 180 degrees from there, or 90 degrees as well. It really removes the variable of the archer being blown around in the wind so you are testing only the arrow.

Since I cannot get any more offset on the AAE vane, they will just have to earn their way into the quiver as-is. But I can play with the Gas-pro's a little, and I'll do that when I have time. Until then, I'm still happy to have my Nano Pro's with Elivane S3's on them that group well from 20 to 70 meters. I really have no reason to switch away from them, so these tests with other vanes are nothing more than to satisfy my own curiosity.

One small advantage the AAE Wav's may have is less drag. They weigh essentially the same as either the Elivanes or Gas Pro's, but they impact higher at 70 meters because they have less drag. I have a tough time reaching 90 on my sight (have to move it in a few stops) with the S3's because of the drag. I think they start to parachute a little at 90, and the groups open up a bit. 

I could see an archer having one set of vanes for 90 and/or 70, and another for 50/30 if they were shooting full fita's often. 

Oh, and I shot these arrows by shooting a different vane each shot, so that I wasn't always shooting a certain type of vane first, or last.


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## limbwalker

Vittorio / Rick,

I'd love to hear an explanation of how to tune for different vanes of the same weight.


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## ccwilder3

Thanks for the post LW.

Real world test by a good archer can save a lot of folks time and money.


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## limbwalker

Thanks.

I managed a 320 at 50M (80cm face) in some tricky winds on Saturday shooting the AAE Wav's. That's a score I would expect to shoot with my Elivanes, so I'm encouraged by that result. The 30M results were quite poor however. My Elivanes group so well at 30 meters that I usually won't shoot more than 3 arrows into a single spot at that distance. Not sure if it was the vane or the archer though. That was toward the end of a very long couple of days.


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## edgerat

luckycharlie said:


> There is a bohning tower that will put a 3 deg helical on small shafts. Seems to work fine.


When I tried my Tower with the Wave vanes it put a wrinkle in the base of the vane.


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## luckycharlie

edgerat said:


> When I tried my Tower with the Wave vanes it put a wrinkle in the base of the vane.



On a 810 spine Carbon One shaft, it worked good. I have never tried them on an x-1o, or nano.


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## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> .... My Elivanes group so well at 30 meters that I usually won't shoot more than 3 arrows into a single spot at that distance ....










Today, 6:39 PM local time, slightly windy, 30 mt, 9 arrows end ...


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## jhinaz

Vittorio said:


> Today, 6:39 PM local time, slightly windy, 30 mt, 9 arrows end ...


Vittorio,
To say "that's very nice shooting" would be an understatement....that's typical Michele! 
Did he shoot those with his XR7? - John


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## HikerDave

limbwalker said:


> Thanks Rick. Yes, a lot of training and testing go hand-in-hand. For some folks, if it's an interesting reason to shoot more arrows, then it's a good thing.
> 
> I'm fortunate to have a location where I can stand on concrete and shoot from a position totally sheltered from the wind, but still have my arrows in an exposed wind for virtually the entire 70 meters. And I can turn around and shoot 180 degrees from there, or 90 degrees as well. It really removes the variable of the archer being blown around in the wind so you are testing only the arrow.
> 
> Since I cannot get any more offset on the AAE vane, they will just have to earn their way into the quiver as-is. But I can play with the Gas-pro's a little, and I'll do that when I have time. Until then, I'm still happy to have my Nano Pro's with Elivane S3's on them that group well from 20 to 70 meters. I really have no reason to switch away from them, so these tests with other vanes are nothing more than to satisfy my own curiosity.
> 
> One small advantage the AAE Wav's may have is less drag. They weigh essentially the same as either the Elivanes or Gas Pro's, but they impact higher at 70 meters because they have less drag. I have a tough time reaching 90 on my sight (have to move it in a few stops) with the S3's because of the drag. I think they start to parachute a little at 90, and the groups open up a bit.
> 
> I could see an archer having one set of vanes for 90 and/or 70, and another for 50/30 if they were shooting full fita's often.
> 
> Oh, and I shot these arrows by shooting a different vane each shot, so that I wasn't always shooting a certain type of vane first, or last.


I think that the reason fletching angle and offset could have an important effect (as evidenced by Rick McKinney's suggestion for you to try varying these) is because the arrow is spinning at a rotation rate on the same order that the arrow is vibrating in paradox. If the arrow is spinning at exactly twice it's self-resonant frequency the resulting accuracy might be less than if the arrow was spinning at a slightly higher or lower rate where a flaw in the arrow might be evened out instead of being reinforced. I think that an arrow bends at around 70 hz in its fundamental mode, which would mean that a spin rate of 8400 RPM would be exactly twice this -- probably a frequency to stay away from. Complicating this analysis is the fact that the arrow is slowing down. I would love to hear gt's comments on this -- I think that I read somewhere that he had made actual measurements of arrow rotation.

Wish I was accurate enough to make these tests myself  -- thanks for reporting. I'm guessing that for many elite archers the results of their tests would be a closely-guarded secret.


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## Vittorio

jhinaz said:


> Vittorio,
> To say "that's very nice shooting" would be an understatement....that's typical Michele!
> Did he shoot those with his XR7? - John


TR-7 riser and RX1 limbs, Nano Pro fletched with green P3 vanes are those second choice (selection done for Olympic games) he uses for training. He shoots 18 arrows ends in training, using 2 spots at 50 and 30 mt. Don't forget that now in competition 30 mt needs 6 arrows to be shot in the same spot, but there are not so many problems to arrows at internationallevel despite this. He can shoot 9 arrows safely there, while probably more will be a little risky. Anyhow, for years world championships has seen 4 archers shooting 3 arrows each in the same 30 mt spot, total 12 arrows, with not many problems.

Same arrows today at 70 mt, 18 arrows end, 176:







(full Fita round, low wind, no sighting arrows, 323+346+340+359=1368)


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## limbwalker

Vittorio said:


> View attachment 1653764
> 
> Today, 6:39 PM local time, slightly windy, 30 mt, 9 arrows end ...


And pin nocks... 

I ain't trying that with my Out-nocks.


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## HikerDave

limbwalker said:


> And pin nocks...
> 
> I ain't trying that with my Out-nocks.


That gold riser must be magic. I think that I should get one of those ... And to think that I had it within my grasp at Las Vegas (if it is the same one that Sky was showing off in Vegas).

Back on topic -- that's a pretty good advertisement for Eli Vanes, at least on Nano Pro arrows.


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## Chinese Tea

Is there any advantage to the WAV vane compared to the Plastifletch max aside from the slight weight reduction (and being twice the cost)?

How's the durability? I've practically never had an issue with the Plastifletch, whether that be shooting through the clicker or pulling arrows through the target.


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## limbwalker

HikerDave said:


> That gold riser must be magic. I think that I should get one of those ... And to think that I had it within my grasp at Las Vegas (if it is the same one that Sky was showing off in Vegas).


Yes, it's the very same riser you had in your hands in Vegas...  

This newest Generation of SKY TR-7 risers are going to be showing up on a lot of podiums in the next few years I believe. They really are amazing risers.


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## Bob Furman

Chinese Tea said:


> Is there any advantage to the WAV vane compared to the Plastifletch max aside from the slight weight reduction (and being twice the cost)?
> 
> How's the durability? I've practically never had an issue with the Plastifletch, whether that be shooting through the clicker or pulling arrows through the target.


How do you figure they are twice the cost? Las had them listed at three same price.




Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## limbwalker

Chinese Tea said:


> Is there any advantage to the WAV vane compared to the Plastifletch max aside from the slight weight reduction (and being twice the cost)?
> 
> How's the durability? I've practically never had an issue with the Plastifletch, whether that be shooting through the clicker or pulling arrows through the target.


Won't be able to answer the durability question for a while yet...

Weight reduction is big for several reasons. Esp. for recurve finger shooters. Not only does it help a little with total arrow weight, but it affords slightly more nock end clearance than a heavier vane would.

That alone would be enough reason for me to switch from Plastifletch Max (what I used to use) to these.

John


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## elarock

Bob Furman said:


> How do you figure they are twice the cost? Las had them listed at three same price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I think because the Wav's come in packs of 50 and the Max's come in packs of 100 for the same price.


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## Reed

has anyone tried them on a larger shaft, like a cxl or fatboy?


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## Biggsy

edgerat said:


> When I tried my Tower with the Wave vanes it put a wrinkle in the base of the vane.


Dont push the locking collar down too hard, i used to have trouble with my Tower Jig until i got gentle with the coller


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## edgerat

Biggsy said:


> Dont push the locking collar down too hard, i used to have trouble with my Tower Jig until i got gentle with the coller


thanks for that Big!


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## LittleJP

I shot the AAE WAV and the Gas Pros at 18m today. There is little difference at that distance, as far as I can tell with my middling skills. However, the price point on the WAVs can't be beat, and I will probably fletch a full set of 12 with these.
I'll probably see more difference once I start the outdoor season and shoot farther distances.


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## limbwalker

I'll ask the question again...



> Vittorio / Rick,
> 
> I'd love to hear an explanation of how to tune for different vanes of the same weight.


Still waiting for an answer.


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## Beastmaster

limbwalker said:


> Yes, it's the very same riser you had in your hands in Vegas...
> 
> This newest Generation of SKY TR-7 risers are going to be showing up on a lot of podiums in the next few years I believe. They really are amazing risers.


Not to deviate too far from the original subject, but Spencer fell in love with your riser/limb combination when he played with it in the booth at Vegas. If he did the switch from Compound to Recurve, that riser would be on the top of the list to acquire.


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## limbwalker

Yea, but we'd need a 21" version for him.  ha, ha. 

Actually, just yesterday I did my best to convince Jim that we need a 23" TR-7 riser for ladies and shorter draw men. Hope he agrees with me. I have some top young ladies I work with that would love that handle.


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## Rick McKinney

limbwalker said:


> I'll ask the question again...
> 
> Still waiting for an answer.


John, I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Please explain.


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## julle

Rick McKinney said:


> John, I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Please explain.


He was wondering the same as I was , how do you tune for different vanes that (when assembled) have nearly the same weight? I know adding weight to the back stiffens the dynamic spine, but the difference between the vanes is so small I think you won't notice any difference.


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## limbwalker

Yup, that's what I'm asking. Vittorio mentioned tuning for different vanes, drag angles, etc. 

Other than "group tuning" to see what arrangement seems to group the best, what else are we missing?

It's pretty obvious what the effect of more or less nock end weight (i.e. the difference between say, 10 grains of Plastifletch Max vanes vs. 2 or 3 grains of spin wings) will be for an arrow. You can duplicate this weight with tape and see the bare shaft move several inches left or right at 30 meters. 

But what about when two sets of vanes weight the same amount? What do you do then besides simply log the groups and see what kinds of differences show up?

And then when you see a difference between say, straight fletched vs. 4 degree offset with the same weight vane, what do you do then?


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## Rick McKinney

limbwalker said:


> Yup, that's what I'm asking. Vittorio mentioned tuning for different vanes, drag angles, etc.
> Other than "group tuning" to see what arrangement seems to group the best, what else are we missing?
> It's pretty obvious what the effect of more or less nock end weight (i.e. the difference between say, 10 grains of Plastifletch Max vanes vs. 2 or 3 grains of spin wings) will be for an arrow. You can duplicate this weight with tape and see the bare shaft move several inches left or right at 30 meters.
> But what about when two sets of vanes weight the same amount? What do you do then besides simply log the groups and see what kinds of differences show up?
> And then when you see a difference between say, straight fletched vs. 4 degree offset with the same weight vane, what do you do then?


Maybe you are trying to out think yourself. Group tuning is without a doubt the most important aspect of shooting. However, it is important to check it out in all types of weather elements. Some vanes will shoot/group outstanding in certain situations and then fail miserably in other type of situations. 

I really never bare shaft tuned that tightly. I got it close (without tape on the shaft by the way) and then started group tuning by adjusting nock location, and plunger tension (micro). 

If you have two vanes that weigh exactly the same, then it is the best situation, because you do not have to worry so much about which vane has the advantage of your gross tune. Both are on equal footing. Thus, you just pick a variable and see which one gives you the best group (say nock point). Then go to the next variable (say plunger tension) and see if it gets better. This is not real rocket science. Just pick a variable and find out if one is more forgiving than the other. Then play with the next variable. Once you get the 2nd variable checked out and find the best grouping, then go back and play a little with the 1st variable and see if you can tweak it a bit more. Once you find both variables that work the best for the setup then you can decide if you want to find something better by changing the vane angle or point weight or brace height or stabilization, or grip pressure or finger pressure. There are tons of items you can experiment with but the key is to find one and work on it first and then find the next one. Then go back to the first one to see if you can make it better. Yes, it just might take a year or two to figure out what works best for you, but that is the beauty of archery. It has never ending variables to figure out what is best. Just keep in mind that all of these tests will give you a point or two but the most important key is your form consistency. Michele's groups are not really that much of the equipment as it is his form. He can get the groups to tighten a bit but only if his form is really spot on and he is showing that it is. It's amazing what a Gold Medal will do for your confidence!


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## limbwalker

Okay, It wasn't me who suggested different tunes for different vanes of the same weight - it was Vittorio. ha, ha. But he left us hanging, so I wanted to follow up with that question.

I'm not NEARLY that OCD about this stuff and if my bare shaft is flying good, I'm happy. I just can't shoot enough arrows to fine tune with group tuning anymore. If I'm lucky, I'll stumble into a vane/arrow combination that gives me really, really good groups and I'll just leave well enough alone and go shoot. I haven't been able to shoot enough arrows to test this kind of thing since 2005.

And if all you use are spin wings, then no, the tape is not really necessary because they are so light anyway.

I love your explanation because that is essentially the scientific principle in it's simplest form. Test no more than one variable at a time. Some folks aren't familiar with this, and change two, or three or more things at once and then they are chasing their tail and don't know why.

Thanks much Rick!


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## tunedlow

@limbwalker: I tried out the AAE Wavs at 40-50m and they grouped really well but I was starting to see leftward drift of my arrows at that distance as well that I didn't see at 20-30m. though the AAE Wav equipped ACCs that I typically shoot grouped well. think this is a plunger tuning issue? 

between my spin wings and the AAE wavs, im seeing the Wavs grouping much better from end to end.


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## limbwalker

I get a left to right drift from 10M to 60M (shooting a lot of field distances right now) and it's almost entirely from me canting my bow. I've always done this (a relic of my traditional days) and just compensate for the windage on my windage block. My daughter shoots LH and does the same thing. In fact, she and I were just comparing notes an hour ago as she was getting her sight marks for state field this weekend.

That may be it. It could also be a plunger centershot issue. If your centershot is not set correctly, you will see a drift from one distance to the next.

BTW, I used to worry about canting my bow until I stood behind Butch Johnson in Louisville in 2004 (the year he set the world record) and once I saw him canting about the same amount, I just simply quit worry about it.


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## tunedlow

limbwalker said:


> I get a left to right drift from 10M to 60M (shooting a lot of field distances right now) and it's almost entirely from me canting my bow. I've always done this (a relic of my traditional days) and just compensate for the windage on my windage block. My daughter shoots LH and does the same thing. In fact, she and I were just comparing notes an hour ago as she was getting her sight marks for state field this weekend.
> 
> That may be it. It could also be a plunger centershot issue. If your centershot is not set correctly, you will see a drift from one distance to the next.
> 
> BTW, I used to worry about canting my bow until I stood behind Butch Johnson in Louisville in 2004 (the year he set the world record) and once I saw him canting about the same amount, I just simply quit worry about it.


i'll be shooting more tomorrow so I'll check that out -thanks. Im liking these AAE vanes so far and the results are working for me.


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## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> Yup, that's what I'm asking. Vittorio mentioned tuning for different vanes, drag angles, etc.
> 
> Other than "group tuning" to see what arrangement seems to group the best, what else are we missing?
> 
> It's pretty obvious what the effect of more or less nock end weight (i.e. the difference between say, 10 grains of Plastifletch Max vanes vs. 2 or 3 grains of spin wings) will be for an arrow. You can duplicate this weight with tape and see the bare shaft move several inches left or right at 30 meters.
> 
> But what about when two sets of vanes weight the same amount? What do you do then besides simply log the groups and see what kinds of differences show up?
> 
> And then when you see a difference between say, straight fletched vs. 4 degree offset with the same weight vane, what do you do then?


Different fletching makes arrows react and fly differently, and the fletched arrow in all its components is the object that should give you the final result. 
So, you decide the fletching (and the point type and weight, and the nock and its pinching on the string), and you start tuning. 
A good fine tuning may take some weeks, as you will need to check it in different weather conditions and in different competitions. 
Fletching influencies drag and side reaction to angular wind, so different fletching (angle, weight, shape) needs different fine tuning. 
Of course, if you are an experienced archer, you will discard in few shots those combinations that will never work, but when you reach immmediately similar groupings with different fletching, to really find out what is working better for you (and your shafts) you will need to fine tune an shoot in different conditions for each combination of fletching/angle, and it may take one or two years of testing to reach a convicing result, as Rick has said.
No one at top level can do this without a real motivation, as really time and numebr of shots needed are reallyout of something easily manageable.
So, after giving a try to a different fletching, all top level recurve archers will get back to Spin Wing or, at least in Italy, to Elivanes now. These wanes have won almost 100% of top level medals in the last 15 years or more, and have been proven to be able to win coninuously by hundred of archers of any country. If you don't have a couple of years of time to test different solutions to find a better one, you will base your decision about fletching to the decision made by the majority of top level archers worldwide.... This is the reality and what is happening everywere. Same situation for shafts, of course.


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