# DAS Bows vs?



## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

DAS bows were created in 2005 by David A. Soza. He sold the design to 3Rivers a few years later. When they were introduced they were the first readily available 17" metal riser bow that used ILF limbs (with the bushings replaced to a proprietary system). The 21" riser came a few years later. At that time ILF limb manufacturers weren't making limbs for short risers. Since then the market has been flooded with shorter risers and limbs made for those risers. The interesting thing about the DAS risers is that a great deal of thought went into the design. There was input from many experienced bowhunters and the final product is truly a phenomenal bow.

I bought my first DAS in 2006 and, with the exception of a few years with shoulder problems, have been shooting one since. I like the 17" riser but recently bought a 21" and put a set of Winex limbs on it. It is a fantastic shooter. I'm using a T-300 rest with a Shibuya DX plunger. It is a sweet shooter that is capable of more than I can do. I've owned and shot many other ILF risers and haven't found one that I would switch to. The 21" is a great solution to the hunter and target shooter.

If you want to find more about the thought behind the bows and their history go to tradtalk.com and so a search on dalaa. There's a wealth of information there.


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## pcfithian (Oct 15, 2015)

I recently set up a Junxing F166 21” ILF riser with DAS Long Longbow limbs, shoots great. This riser can be shot off the shelf, comes with a radiused insert like a Hoyt. I have it set up with a rest and plunger.

Several sellers on eBay list these, you can get a riser only delivered for less than $100. Good review of this bow on YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcDLgXvsxG4&t=227s


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## anthonyray (Jun 26, 2019)

Dave gave me my first Dalaa in 2007. Right before he sold to 3Rivers, he gave me two more and three sets of Winex limbs. I still have two of the bows, one still in the box.
The DAS bows are great shooting bows, and I always liked the grip on the bows. The DAS bushings are extremely nice, holds the limbs solidly in place, and is very quiet, more so them my ilf limbs.
Every bow has their followers and their haters. Most are personal. My love for the DAS bows is personal, I knew Dave very well and talked to him often, did favors for him when he needed limbs. In return, he gifted me bows to show his appreciation. 
I'm not familiar with the new DAS limbs, but the Winex limbs are a solid performancer that ruined me on wood/glass limbs.


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## creidv (Sep 21, 2008)

Got a 21 Das in 2011, with foam limbs. Bought a few more limbs, a few more various risers, but always shot better with the Das. Now I’ve got Max 6 longs on it, and it’s the best combo I’ve ever had.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

The DAS risers are nice risers and the DAS connection has it's relatively small group of fans but in my opinion there are a number of reasons why the ILF connection is much more popular.

The DAS thumbscrew connection was first designed because the it was believed that the ILF connection, which had been around for decades prior, wasn't suitable or even safe for use shorter (sub 19") risers. That has proven to be false as the ILF connection is now been successfully used on risers down to 13". It was also thought that ILF risers weren't suitable for hunting as they were thought to be noisy. Again, that has been proven wrong on thousands upon thousands of harvested animals. Noise is a product of tuning. Every bow can be as quiet or as noisy as you tune it to be.

In order to use any other limbs other than DAS branded limbs on DAS risers, it requires modifications to the limbs. This can be inconvenient, and in some cases can void the limb warranty. In addition to that, not all brands of ILF limbs fit properly into some DAS risers without further modifications to the limb butt area.

There are just too many ILF riser options out there, in every length and price range you can imagine, that don't come with any of the aforementioned negatives.

To each their own, but I would choose and ILF riser without question.

KPC


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## Anchor Zero Six (Nov 29, 2010)

Wow some compelling replies there! Sounds like they are what I hoped they would be. 

I see there is an ILF conversion kit available. Knowing that I believe this has a flexibility advantage over other comparable risers.


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## anthonyray (Jun 26, 2019)

First of all, when Dave made the DAS bows, most ilf risers were over 19" long. Companies weren't making 17" risers. And swapping out the ilf bushings for DAS bushings is easy and fast, with no issues. When Dave designed the DAS bows, he was able to shoot light weight arrows without issues to rises or limbs, at high arrow speeds. The archery community snubbed him and his bows, except the guys shooting them and using them for 3D and hunting. Without Dave Sosa, trad tech wouldn't of been born, and ilf wouldn't be what it is today. 
As far as some ilf limbs not fitting the DAS rises, many ilf limbs don't fit priority in ilf rises without sanding limb butts, or in the case of Morrison limbs, swapping out ilf bushings cause some of their bushings don't slide into ilf rises. I've sanded Tradtech limbs to give clearance at the pocket, sanded some Winex limbs. So not all ilf limbs fit ilf rises rises perfectly.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I have never seen a situation where a *production* ILF limb has had to be sanded or modified to fit into a *production* ILF riser.

A few of the *custom* makers (like the Morrison issues that you speak of) had some fitment issues early on with both the riser pocket itself, and the dovetail bushing/slot, but that was because of their own production issues. Once they got up to speed in terms of what a "universal" connection needed to be, those problems went away.

As stated earlier, the DAS connection is popular within a relatively small community (compared to ILF) but in the opinion of many, there is a reason that no other company has gone that route, or anything close to it, since it's introduction almost 15 years ago. It was seen by most to be a solution to a problem that didn't really exist, and in some cases actually created a few that weren't there to begin with.

I was actually part of the pre production prototype testing of the first sub 19" metal ILF hunting riser (TradTech Titan) back in '07. You can still read my initial impression of the riser from my post here on Archery Talk at that time.

https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=515303

That same riser is still my go-to riser today. For an all around hunting/target/3D riser, I don't think you will find a better platform than the Titan.

For what it's worth, I was also around (although not involved) during the development of the original DAS risers, the WARF craze, and even the Hoyt Gamemaster riser/ILF limb conversions (which I also personally experimented with). It's not like I come by my opinions about both systems without experimentation. I've experimented with dozens (if not more) of these combinations through the years. 

You can personally like or dislike those involved in both systems, that's fine, but that doesn't change the facts about either.

If I were the OP, I would try both systems and go with the one that he feels will suit him best going forward.

KPC


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

DAS connection, wasn’t designed to replace ilf, it was adopted as a hunting style connection not a target connection, also David copies the connection system from Hoyt pre ilf, see Hoyt td 1-4, he openly admitted to that and didn’t deny it. 
If it wasn’t for DAS, tradtec wouldn’t have designed the titan. 

If I had a choice I would go with the dalaa, (my bias set aside) they come in 15” 17” 19” and 21”. 
My choice with bias I would go with dalaa because I also appreciate what David did for us and archery. Has sleek lines and as adjustable as all the risers that have copied the DAS design. 

Avoid all risers labeled as DAS gen 1/2, hunters and elite. Those are pre 3 rivers and made by David and are collected by some, me included. 
I’m just glad I can’t shoot 17” risers they are to short for 31” draw. 

Try all you can and see which you like. 

Chad


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Coodster said:


> DAS connection, wasn’t designed to replace ilf, it was adopted as a hunting style connection not a target connection...



While that is accurate, it’s not totally complete. The DAS riser actually evolved out of the WARF craze that was prevalent among a certain group of archers that frequented a certain forum. DAS said many times that the reason he went with a different connection was BECAUSE the ILF was not suitable and or safe for short hunting risers. 

Some of the people that were helping with the design actually recommended that he stick with ILF, but for a variety of reasons, including the fact that the DAS riser was never intended to be a stand alone riser. From the start, riser and limbs were only offered as a package, and only in certain instances would DAS allow other limbs to be fitted to the riser by DAS himself. 

In part, that was because of some of the fitment concerns I mentioned earlier, in addition to other reasons related to his business model. 

Lastly, the DAS connection was indeed tried on a target model called the Elite, which never really took off to any extent. 

KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Kevin, you repeatedly say that David created his connection system as a solution to a problem that didn’t exist. That is simply not true. David pioneered using small riser and ILF limbs and wanted something more secure than he felt the ILF to be. At that time nobody knew if ILF would work for sure on short risers with hunting weight bows. So you can say in retrospect it wasn’t a problem but at the time it wasn’t proven and only the continued development by other bow makers have proven it feasible. 

You also reference DAS as a small segment of the market but it is still a reasonable segment of the bowhunting market, which is what the bow was designed for. 

Yes ILF is a workable solution and used by many but that doesn’t diminish the value in the design of DAS bows. Added to that, in the view of many ILF isn’t as secure as the DAS connection. Also the DAS connection is easier to quiet and provides a larger range of preload. 

There is no wrong choice for bow hunters. It just depends on what they choose to like.


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes the elite, let’s see 63-65 red elites made, two green, one blue, one naked, there is another unusual elite that I want so I’ll keep that one to myself lol. Don’t remember how many left hands made but not many. 

I hunted with ilf for many years and never had any issues being noisy, you are correct it’s in the tune. 

Chad


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> Kevin, you repeatedly say that David created his connection system as a solution to a problem that didn’t exist. That is simply not true. David pioneered using small riser and ILF limbs and wanted something more secure than he felt the ILF to be. At that time nobody knew if ILF would work for sure on short risers with hunting weight bows. So you can say in retrospect it wasn’t a problem but at the time it wasn’t proven and only the continued development by other bow makers have proven it feasible.



With all due respect Phil, you're trying to rewrite history. It wasn't a matter of DAS not knowing, as you say, it's a matter of him definitively stating, after significant testing, that the ILF fitting was not suitable or even safe for use on short hunting risers. 

When the topic of the safety of using the ILF connection on short hunting risers was being discussed, this is what he said:



DAS said:


> GEREP,
> All this short riser application stuff is totally new to the big limb manufactures. In their world 21" is a really short riser. That's probably why the pinnacle is 21". It's a question you would have to ask them. All I know for sure is what I have learned over the last 3 years working with these components. I've got a pretty big database by now.
> 
> David


By virtue of the fact that dozens of short hunting risers, both metal and wood, production and custom, as short as 13" have successfully utilized the ILF connection, it most certainly means it was indeed a *"solution to a problem that didn't exist."*





Phil Magistro said:


> Yes ILF is a workable solution and used by many but that doesn’t diminish the value in the design of DAS bows. Added to that, in the view of many ILF isn’t as secure as the DAS connection. Also the DAS connection is easier to quiet and provides a larger range of preload.
> 
> There is no wrong choice for bow hunters. It just depends on what they choose to like.


No one said there was a wrong choice Phil. The OP asked for opinions, you gave yours and I gave mine. 

The entire goal back then was to use FITA/Olympic caliber limb technology on hunting risers. That's what started the whole thing. Look how many manufacturers, both production and custom, that are utilizing the ILF connection in order to achieve that goal on hunting length risers compared to the number that are using a DAS type connection and it's easy to see that the ILF connection is not just a *"workable solution"* but the *preferable solution.*

Obviously, not everyone will agree in terms of which one they prefer, which one is quieter, who they like better and why etc., but to insinuate that what I've posted *"simply isn't true"* is just plain false.

KPC


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## Anchor Zero Six (Nov 29, 2010)

I have owned a Hoyt Dorado which if I'm not mistaken is same or very sililar to the DAS system. I say this because if I recall to convert ILF limbs to the Dorado connection you needed to replace the hardware with that from 3RA (DAS) or purchase the conversion kit from Lancaster.

With that said I would purchase a DAS with the ILF. I dont know enough to argue which is best or the history behind the decision. On its face I beleive ILF to be the defacto industry standard with a wide variety of limbs ranging in price, length and composition. Not to say the DAS limbs or connection is in any way inferior just saying I like choices.

I was dumb getting into trad and completely over bowed myself. But 12 years later I have no issue drawing 55# for shooting instinctive longbow inside of 30 yds. 

I would like to fix my bad habits and my years of attempting to be Howard Hill and learn to shoot a recurve correctly. I figure I would work on fundamentals with 35-40 limbs and 45-50 for actual hunting. 

So right out the gate I'd be investing in two sets of limbs and probably want to play around with different lengths to wit ILF being more common makes more sense.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Anchor Zero Six said:


> I have owned a Hoyt Dorado which if I'm not mistaken is same or very sililar to the DAS system. I say this because if I recall to convert ILF limbs to the Dorado connection you needed to replace the hardware with that from 3RA (DAS) or purchase the conversion kit from Lancaster.




Not really. It is true that both the DAS connection and the Dorado (as well as the Gamemaster) could use ILF limbs with swapped out bushings, the Dorado and the Gamemaster were still just a bolt down system with no preload or tiller adjustment.

KPC


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

Gerep is Correct, dorado and gamemaster are basically bolt down, they will not use a das fitting they have a concentric dowel pin. 

To make your decision more difficult the 3rivers dalaa and tribute can be ordered as ilf it doesn’t have to be a DAS fitting. 

I hear good things about the satori but haven’t handled one. 

Chad


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Kevin, we have these same discussions every time someone mentions DAS. You point out your perceived shortcomings and I defend the the genius, foresight and ability of David. While we would have eventually had short risers using ILF limbs, David created bows doing just that at least two years before any else and his design was responsible for showing others the way. I'm not sure if you ever actually talked with David or just pick from his posts on tradtalk but your quote from him validates what I said - nobody had proof that ILF limbs designed for Oly target bows would hold up at hunting weights on short hunting risers. I also noted that since David opened up the market for short-riser bows using ILF limbs other have proven that short risers will accommodate ILF fittings. That is in retrospect, and wasn't apparent while David was pioneering this segment of the market.

While I do agree that ILF works on hunting risers, apparently Gillo thinks there is a better way. Their new GT riser uses a different limb pocket that keeps the ILF fitting stable as preload is adjusted. Watch at about 6 minutes in this video as John Wert explains the "limitations" of ILF fittings (and this is on longer risers, not shorter ones) that Gillo is trying to correct by preventing rocking of the fitting as the preload is adjusted. This is a new approach to solve what you may refer to as a problem that doesn't exist but it appears Gillo thinks they can improve on the existing connection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBDt0yUanHo.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> Kevin, we have these same discussions every time someone mentions DAS. You point out your perceived shortcomings and I defend the the genius, foresight and ability of David.



Therein lies the difference in how we see this Phil. I just don't happen to see the "genius" in over engineering a solution to a problem that quite obviously doesn't exist...especially when it creates other problems that didn't exist before.' The fact that you say it is in retrospect doesn't really matter. To me, it is a perfect example of Occam's Razor. 

That doesn't make me right, nor does it make you right. Each design has it's fans. I feel comfortable in knowing that for the most part, almost 15 years of history has made the determination as to which design is more universally accepted and preferred.

When someone asks for honest opinions about the two connections, I will continue to relate what I know to be true. I suspect you will too. I'm comfortable with that. 


As to the Gillo design, it's really not a change to the ILF connection at all. The dovetail and the slot is exactly the same, it's just a matter of adjusting the entire limb pad angle. 

KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Looking forward to it.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Coodster said:


> To make your decision more difficult the 3rivers dalaa and tribute can be ordered as ilf it doesn’t have to be a DAS fitting.



Good point Coodster and back to A06's original question.

Take this for what it is but in my opinion, if you have your mind or heart set on a DAS riser from 3R, I would suggest you go with the ILF configuration...especially if you intend to switch limbs from different manufacturers in the future. That would help to alleviate some of the potential limb fitment issues we talked about earlier in the thread. 

Personally, I would also go with the 21" version as it is my understanding that the limb pocket on that particular length has been redesigned with additional limb butt clearance in order to better accommodate different brands of limbs. Don't quote me on this, but it is my understanding that 3R recognized the fitment issues and took measures on that particular riser to help alleviate them.

KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

And I would order the DAS fittings to get the benefit of that design. I, and many others, have sanded more than a few limb butts with no difficulty at all. I have also used numerous limbs that required no modification. It is truly a non-issue to get the benefits of the connection. 

I’d also recommend the 21” riser. If you are comfortable with a 62” or longer bow it makes a great system and a sweet shooter.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> It is truly a non-issue to get the benefits of the connection.




Just for the record Phil, this is what the designer of the system said about that very thing when asked about buying DAS risers alone and retrofitting ILF limbs to fit the DAS connection.


_*"There are a very small percentage of people who would buy these risers and be able to independently set them up and use them. The rest would buy them and then take up 3 Rivers time trying to educate them and work through problems. It's not like selling Fita risers to Fita people where everything is standardized and people are used to working with it. To top it off, 3Rivers is not an ILF expert so there are situations that they may not be able to handle. Most people don't realize how much time I spend on the phone doing support as it is." *_


KPC


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

I also would recommend the 21” on just the simple fact 62” bow (short limbs) is a good all around hunting size, 64-66” (with medium or long limbs) will be your best option for target and even 3D. 
Personally feel the 21” riser is the most under rated size riser. 19” and below, the market has a ton of them. 

Now that the DAS has been hashed out, might also look for a bernadini cobra (no longer made) but every once and a while they pop up. They are a 21” Ilf riser solid and built very well. 
Bernadini mamba is 19”, both are a heavier riser. 

I do love my cobra it has won many state shoots and 3D shoots, killed a few turkeys and has been with me elk hunting many times. 

Some more mud to muddy up your decision lol. 

Chad


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Kevin,

"There are a very small percentage of people who would buy these risers and be able to independently set them up and use them. The rest would buy them and then take up 3 Rivers time trying to educate them and work through problems. It's not like selling Fita risers to Fita people where everything is standardized and people are used to working with it. To top it off, 3Rivers is not an ILF expert so there are situations that they may not be able to handle. Most people don't realize how much time I spend on the phone doing support as it is." 

That was 10 or 12 years ago. David worked with 3Rivers to make changes and things have been a lot different since then. Time to let that one go.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Actually Phil, as I said earlier, some of the issues have been taken care of on the 21” riser but to my knowledge there have yet to be any changes on the others. 

Maybe someone from 3R can weigh in and let us know. 

Just trying to keep this real and accurate. 

KPC


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## bfisherman11 (Oct 16, 2002)

Without debating if ILF or DAS is better..... I have both and honestly I would buy a DAS again in a heart beat. I have easily converted ILF limbs from Uuhka and Border to my DAS. Currently I have the original DAS limbs on my DAS riser because they are nice and smooth. I have the Uuhka's on my Optimus riser and I sold the Border limbs to buy a Border CH bow. 

To the OP, it is all fun so enjoy. My 2c to this thread is as I said. I just flat out like the DAS better. I have a BS in Mech Eng so maybe I like my stuff just a tad bit on the engineered side and all the DAS stuff is well thought out. I don't find it restrictive like a bolt down riser might be. Nothing wrong with ILF when I say that by the way. Just my preference.

Bill


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

bfisherman11 said:


> I have a BS in Mech Eng so maybe I like my stuff just a tad bit on the engineered side and all the DAS stuff is well thought out.
> 
> Bill



I can appreciate that Bill. My brother is a ME and lets just say he has a different way of thinking about things than I do.



Being a ME, I'd like your opinion on one particular aspect of the ILF/DAS design.

Hoyt designed the ILF connection to have the barrel of the ILF fitting (1) be the positive "stop" when inserting the limb. This prevents the limb notch from making contact with the limb bolt (2), and it prevents the limb butt itself from making contact with the back of the limb pocket (3).









Unlike the DAS connection which was designed with a slot for the thumb screw (1) allowing the limb to move inward. Therefore the positive "stop" is either the limb notch making contact with the limb bolt (2) or the limb butt itself making contact with the back of the limb pocket (3), neither of which is advisable.









In my opinion, therein lies the only "flaw" in the design of the DAS connection as Hoyt knew that contact should not be made in either of those two areas.

Your thoughts?

KPC


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

Huh this picture has been posted twice on at now. 

I agree that limb fork/butt is an issue and if 3 rivers hasn’t changed it by now they are dropping the ball big time. 
Only riser I have seen this issue on is the 17” risers, is it also on the 21”. 

As you can see the elite and the tribute do not have that issue. 
I also had a ilf tribute and that was not an issue. 

Chad


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

OP, I've shot my buddies DAS..... and have 2 Tradtech risers among others. 

Both are very good shooters...with good balance. I cannot speak to the technical issues with the DAS, I haven't spent much time with it.

The one thing I would do is buy a set of $60 [read cheap!] 30# limbs to start shooting with until you develop form.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Coodster said:


> I agree that limb fork/butt is an issue and if 3 rivers hasn’t changed it by now they are dropping the ball big time.
> Only riser I have seen this issue on is the 17” risers, is it also on the 21”.
> 
> As you can see the elite and the tribute do not have that issue.
> ...



Chad:

To the best of my knowledge, some revisions have been made to the 21" Dalaa but I am not certain about the other Dalaa lengths.

As to the Elite, I've seen situations where there was limb butt clearance issues on those too, both with the DAS and ILF plates.

This one happened to be with the ILF plates and required substantial modification to the limb butts in order to eliminate the binding against the back wall of the limb pocket.









*In my opinion*, it seems very simple. Risers that were/are designed to accept multiple brands of limbs need to designed to have enough clearance to accommodate small differences in limb dimensions...*especially* when the positive "stop" is either the limb notch making contact with the limb bolt or the limb butts ends making contact with the riser pocket wall.

KPC


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## Anchor Zero Six (Nov 29, 2010)

bfisherman11 said:


> Without debating if ILF or DAS is better..... I have both and honestly I would buy a DAS again in a heart beat. I have easily converted ILF limbs from Uuhka and Border to my DAS. Currently I have the original DAS limbs on my DAS riser because they are nice and smooth. I have the Uuhka's on my Optimus riser and I sold the Border limbs to buy a Border CH bow.
> 
> To the OP, it is all fun so enjoy. My 2c to this thread is as I said. I just flat out like the DAS better. I have a BS in Mech Eng so maybe I like my stuff just a tad bit on the engineered side and all the DAS stuff is well thought out. I don't find it restrictive like a bolt down riser might be. Nothing wrong with ILF when I say that by the way. Just my preference.
> 
> Bill


I'm also an ME lol.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Anchor Zero Six said:


> I'm also an ME.




I'm pretty sure they have medication for that now.

:wink:

KPC


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## bfisherman11 (Oct 16, 2002)

Sorry GEREP, I haven't checked back in till today. Obviously you need a primary locator regardless if it is via the ILF plunger in the mating ILF slot or the cut slot at the limb butt. I assume this is the contact area based on my bow. I have never seen contact at the limb butt. 

I do not see a real difference in stress load distribution with either solution. Honestly and to some it might seem like this is a lot of stress at the point and load but in my world of heavy machinery, this is not. I could draw it up in my CAD system and do stress analysis to be 100% but that is what I feel. The difference just isn't enough either way to matter.

However, since we also need to consider universal fit. In that aspect the plunger/mating slot of the ILF has an advantage. Again, my opinion.

What I prefer abut the DAS connection is tying it down (capturing if you will) with the thumb screw. Like the ILF the positive stop is the stop. The ILF stop/plunger serves two purposes in it's ingenious design. Yes I give it full credit. These are two GREAT limb capturing techniques. 

Everyone will have their own preferences. 

Anchor, I graduated from Purdue in 1981. Looking back on what I have learned on the job since is like another world. Ha

Bill


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## pcfithian (Oct 15, 2015)

bfisherman11 said:


> . . .I graduated from Purdue in 1981. Looking back on what I have learned on the job since is like another world. Ha
> 
> Bill


Ditto, 1980 for me, Chemical Engineering.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

bfisherman11 said:


> I do not see a real difference in stress load distribution with either solution. Honestly and to some it might seem like this is a lot of stress at the point and load but in my world of heavy machinery, this is not.
> 
> However, since we also need to consider universal fit. In that aspect the plunger/mating slot of the ILF has an advantage. Again, my opinion.



And therein lies the problem in my opinion. It's more about friction than load distribution. In the cases where the positive stop ends up being the limb butt against the back wall of the limb pocket due to slight variations in limb butt dimensions, the friction can cause some real problems. 

In some cases, the weaker of the two materials is going to give.

In the case of metal riser, it can result in a limb failure. In the case of wooden riser, it can be a failure of the riser itself.









Again, in my opinion, there has never been a problem with the connection itself (either DAS or ILF), the problem has always been designs that failed to provide enough relief between the back wall of the limb pocket and the limb butt itself. 

KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Does anyone know of a limb failure from the limb butt contacting the DAS riser? I agree this issue should have been corrected if it isn't but, other than bow noise is there any documented case of a DAS riser causing limbs to separate?

Obviously the riser in your photo isn't a DAS but it does point to the issue that there are no standards among limb makers.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> Obviously the riser in your photo isn't a DAS but it does point to the issue that there are no standards among limb makers.



Actually Phil, it is. The wooden riser with a fractured limb pocket is one of the first Morrison ILF risers (before he changed his design in order to provide more space for various limb manufacturers).

The black riser with the delaminated limb is a Dalaa.

Look how far the limb actually traveled inward when the owner of that particular Dalaa removed enough stock from the back limb pocket wall so the positive stop became the "U notch" against the limb bolt bushing.












KPC


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## ryandurr84 (Dec 27, 2019)

DAS = fo real


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Here's a couple more Phil.

One shows a DAS riser with a DAS limb, one shows DAS riser with an aftermarket limb. Both show obvious limb butt deformation caused by binding against the limb pocket wall. 











Will these limbs end up delaminating from pressure/friction on a glue line? Who knows. 

I know I wouldn't want to take the chance, especially on a set of top shelf limbs. What do you think a manufacturer like Hoyt, WW, or Border will say when a delaminated limb is returned with obvious deformation to the limb butt. Do you think they will say that the delamination is caused by a manufacturer defect or do you think they will say it was caused by misuse?

KPC


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

How old are the pictures, some I have seen years ago. Is it a problem yes if they haven’t fixed the issue. If they have then the issue is an old one and a moot point. 
I’ll call 3 rivers Monday (if I can remember) and ask.
Then we can lay this thing to bed. 
12 years ago I had a 17”dalaa with 3rivers carbon foam limbs (kaya I believe at the time) and I ran into this issue of the limb butt contacting the riser. Sent to 3 rivers and they sanded the limb butts. Did it fix the issue yes did it fix the riser issue no. 

My borders do not hit on the elite, nor Sebastian flute, win win, Bosen or Dryad. 
Tribute this issue has been addressed and there is ample room between riser and limb butts. 


Chad


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Chad:



I know 3R has added more room on the 21" risers and the Tribute was designed with more room from the start, but I'm not sure about the rest.

In my opinion, there are actually two ways to correct the problem with the original design. They can either create more relief in the back wall of the limb pocket or an easier fix would be to redesign the removable limb pad and create about 1/8" more space between the end of the thumb screw slot and the limb bolt bushing. 









KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Kevin, you've been beating this drum for over ten years and through at least three different handles on various forums. Yes it is an issue that was found on older risers and if it's not addressed by now it should be. But I've never heard from anyone that their limbs failed because of the contact. Most folks that have risers with this problem notice it when they can't quiet the bow. Then it gets fixed quite easily. It is nowhere near as serious an issue as you've been making it out to be and should never cause someone to overlook purchasing one of the best risers available for bowhunting.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

You are correct Phil. 

Ironically, you have been denying the existence of the issue for as long as I've been pointing it out, and in your words "defending the genius" of the original design. 

Now you acknowledge there was indeed a problem, at least to the extent that the original design often wasn't friendly to different manufacturers limbs. After all the pictures don't lie. 3R has acknowledged the issue at least 5 years ago. That's not a surprise because the original design was *never* intended to accept all manufacturers limbs. The original designer stated that very thing. As to whether it has been corrected on all their risers, I have no idea. I sincerely hope it has. If it has, good on them.

When people ask for opinions, you are entitled to offer yours as much as I am entitled to offer mine. 

I happen to believe that the ILF connection is superior to the DAS connection in a number of ways and I will continue to voice that opinion every time I see a new person asking for it. The "genius" as you call it is that Hoyt designed the dovetail fitting so as to stop the limb from experiencing the problems described in this and other threads on this and other forums. 

I don't want to see anyone ruin a set of limbs, or void a warranty because of a problem that could be easily rectified.

At the end of the day, even if there aren't any binding issues, I still believe the ILF connection is superior to the DAS connection on a hunting riser. 

KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

I've never denied the issue on older risers. I've always maintained it was not serious and is easily remedied. The original design was built to accept the ILF limbs that were selected by David for use in his bows. If there was a standard for ILF limbs then all would have fit but there is no standard.

Everyone on archery forums you visit knows you feel ILF is better. That's fine. There are others that have spent time with the DAS connection that believe it is superior. That's fine too.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Informative....thx for posting those pics KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> Everyone on archery forums you visit knows you feel ILF is better. That's fine. There are others that have spent time with the DAS connection that believe it is superior. That's fine too.


I agree Phil. And there are people new to both designs, like the OP, asking similar questions every week. Don't we owe them our honest opinions...even if we have stated them numerous times before?






Beendare said:


> Informative....thx for posting those pics KPC


You're welcome.

KPC


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## stevelong (Jan 13, 2010)

potato - potatoE
I've sanded limb butts for clearance to get them to fit on a MULTITUDE of factory ILF risers.
I had a set of ILF SKY (Belcher) longbow limbs that the tapered butts would not fit down into the pocket sidewalls on a SKY TDX 17" riser.
So I sanded the limb butt sides to fit.
SO what?
EVERYONE that has done much switching back & forth eventually runs into something not fitting as freely as it was intended.
ILF does not guarantee or mean everything fits......
DAS stuff rules, even the early ones, I have a red anodized gen2 DAS riser that was David's riser, and I visit with David several times each year.
I bought a DAS bow from David about a year ago in 2018.
AS FOR DAS changes I am real certain they (3Rivers) changed the back riser pocket wall to clear limbs on their 17" Dalaas as well as the 21"ers about ? 2 years ago.
At that time they changed the 21"er to have a bit more centershot, fixed the limb pockets, and seems like there was a 3rd change as well.
I read DEAN Vanderhorst at 3Rivers saying it somewhere on Tradtalk where I normally hang out.
I have ILF stuff, I LIKE ILF stuff, but I have 2 old DAS risers that David made, and I've probably had 27 of his early gen1 & gen2 & prototype risers as I learned all about them.
IF I could only have one bow it would be DAS.
David was/is a genius, and back when he began the research before starting to build his first gen1 risers, almost no one was building any shorter takedown hunting risers that used ILF target limbs.
He helped the hunting community.
AND it's a great system.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Apparently, no one reads the warnings mix and match labels. Lol.


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## stevelong (Jan 13, 2010)

hey, send me all your rotten old derelict cast-off early DAS risers that won't accept ILF limbs, haha......and the offending limbs too, of course........since they irritate you.....and we'll both feel better. win-win.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Steve:

You and others brush this off like it's no big deal but that's not what some people (including you, yours is the second quote) were saying over on TT when a fellow had his 600.00 limbs delaminate because of this kind of contact.


https://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52798&highlight=Mike


_*"The issue is the depth of the "U" notch in the end of the limb butt. Some are deeper than others. This allows the end of the limb butt to contact the riser before the notch bottoms out on the limb bolt. As I understand it, the DAS fitting prevents lateral movement, but allows inward/outward movement depending on preload setting.

I split a limb butt much like yours appears, but it was on a riser conversion I did myself. The split was because of contact that I didn't notice.

While I would be a little more tactful than others, I have to agree, a small tweak in the dimensions of the riser near the limb bolt solves the issue. I have taken a die grinder to my risers and removed a little material to give more clearance. Touching up the finish on my riser wasn't a problem for me. The other easy solution is sanding the end of the limb butt as needed and sealing it."*_


_*"SAD, but true, ILF rocks and Bowbender Mike and dunno who all saw it.
I've had to sand limb butts on 5 or 6 different sets of limbs, to clear riser a bit.
Not sure they were all TT limbs, but I am sure none were WW or Hoyt.
Sorry Tony, that your limbs blew....I figgered everyone had read all the cautions that have been posted on the main forum on this, the last few years.
I remember when BB Mike blew his limbs, and posted up about it; and I have checked every time I mount limbs since then."*_



At the end of the day, if DAS (3R), TradTech, Morrison or anyone else is going to offer a riser that is designed to accept various manufacturers limbs, they *MUST* design that riser to accommodate small differences in limb butt dimensions, that we all know are present.

*In my opinion*, the DAS design is particularly susceptible to this contact because *unlike* the ILF design, the DAS design actually *requires* that contact be made at either the point where the limb butt meets the rear wall of the limb pocket or the point where "U notch" and the limb bolt meet. One of those two points of contact is what stops the limb from traveling inward. It's just a matter of which one hits first. If it's the former, it can and does create problems because it creates pressure and friction directly on the glue joints. If it's the latter, it's not as much of a delamination issue but it is still a potential noise issue. I happen to think that is a flawed design. Other's disagree and that's perfectly fine.

I Have shot a lot of different ILF limb / riser combinations and I have personally never seen one where the limb butt binds against the back wall of the limb pocket (other than the first generation Morrison wood ILF risers...which he immediately corrected). The dovetail making contact with the back of the slot prevents it from happening. It's an integral part of the design. I happen to think that a system that is designed to prevent one of those two points of contact from happening is superior to one that requires it . Other's disagree and that's perfectly fine. 

Many of us have been around this game for a long time and we know exactly what to look for. Other's like the OP that are new to the ILF or the DAS designs are not even aware that there could be an issue, nor do they have any idea what to look for. If we don't talk about it honestly when they ask, how are they supposed to find out? 

Let's not forget what the OP asked:

_*"I'm considering picking one up in 21" but they are not cheap so I wanted to ask for opinions, feedback and alternative options before dropping the $ on a DAS.

I would intend to set it up dual use for a field bow (hunting/3D) from the shelf and as a target bow hence the 21" riser (from rest with plunger). Seems the only other contender would be the Satori which offers similar features.

Are the DAS good bows or do they just have a following due to 3RA? Pros and Cons compared to the Satori? 

Any other options to look at? I realize a riser is only as good as the limbs used so my question is relegated just to the riser selection."*_

I happen to think the honest exchange of information (regardless of friendships and personal animosities) are what these boards are actually good for. Regardless of how many times certain things have been discussed before, for a person like the OP who is asking for the first time, it's all new and should be responded to accordingly. 

Others might disagree and that's perfectly fine.


KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

“ I happen to think the honest exchange of information (regardless of friendships and personal animosities) are what these boards are actually good for. Regardless of how many times certain things have been discussed before, for a person like the OP who is asking for the first time, it's all new and should be responded to accordingly. ”

That’s fine Kevin. So why not just tell people that, depending on the age of the DAS riser you buy it’s important to check the limb butt spacing at the riser and it may require some sanding of the limb butt to avoid contact and let it go at that?

If, as the OP suggested, he’s buying a new riser he should not have that issue. But he still could check. 

Offering that warning shouldn’t require you to post literally dozens of times every time this comes up. The volume of your posts on this suggests you are more concerned about steering people away from DAS rather than just sharing a concern of yours.


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## stevelong (Jan 13, 2010)

Kevin, you say "I happen to think the honest exchange of information (regardless of friendships and personal animosities)" - - - haha that's humorous where you say regardless of personal animosities, since you in this one lone thread repeatedly pound negatives on DAS - methinketh thou dost have a personal animosity - I think all I've read here in this thread requires me to go back and read more past history - including posts of yours - since you refer back to some old obscure Tradtalk post of mine on the subject. It kind of explains a bit of it where you alluded to your having some input in the planning stages of the Tradtech Titan riser. BOUND to be some bias.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> “ I happen to think the honest exchange of information (regardless of friendships and personal animosities) are what these boards are actually good for. Regardless of how many times certain things have been discussed before, for a person like the OP who is asking for the first time, it's all new and should be responded to accordingly. ”
> 
> *That’s fine Kevin. So why not just tell people that, depending on the age of the DAS riser you buy it’s important to check the limb butt spacing at the riser and it may require some sanding of the limb butt to avoid contact and let it go at that?*
> 
> ...



I find that rather interesting Phil, because if you were to go back to my very first post on this thread, that is *precisely* what I did:



GEREP said:


> The DAS risers are nice risers and the DAS connection has it's relatively small group of fans but in my opinion there are a number of reasons why the ILF connection is much more popular.
> 
> The DAS thumbscrew connection was first designed because the it was believed that the ILF connection, which had been around for decades prior, wasn't suitable or even safe for use shorter (sub 19") risers. That has proven to be false as the ILF connection is now been successfully used on risers down to 13". It was also thought that ILF risers weren't suitable for hunting as they were thought to be noisy. Again, that has been proven wrong on thousands upon thousands of harvested animals. Noise is a product of tuning. Every bow can be as quiet or as noisy as you tune it to be.
> 
> ...


It wasn't until you and others attempted to rewrite history and suggest (multiple times) what I posted was somehow inaccurate that I responded in the way and amount I did. 

As to whether or not this "old" problem has been corrected on all their risers, I simply don't know that and neither do you. The issue of what acts as the positive "stop" on the DAS connection still exists and until that changes I will continue to feel that it is an inferior design. Why would I not attempt to steer someone *away* from a design that I truly feel is inferior, the same way others, including you, steer people *toward* it because you truly feel it is superior?

Let's face it Phil, what really bothers you is that here on AT (at least in my opinion), is that you don't have the power to shut conversations down when they don't happen to go in the direction you prefer.

You can continue to make this about me if you wish, but I prefer to keep it about the connections themselves.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

stevelong said:


> It kind of explains a bit of it where you alluded to your having some input in the planning stages of the Tradtech Titan riser. BOUND to be some bias.




Let's be totally accurate Steve. I had no "input" whatsoever in the design of the Titan. None. I was asked to test it before it was introduced and tell the designer what I thought of it. Good and bad. That is all I did. 

I had also had experience with the DAS riser as I had tested it at the Kalamazoo expo prior to that and quite frankly was not overly impressed for a number of reasons. 

I had also had experience in modifying ILF limbs to fit a Hoyt Gamemaster riser and again, I was not overly impressed with that process for a variety of reasons.

When I tested the ILF Titan I felt it had all the good qualities of that type of setup with none of what I felt were the bad qualities.

I still feel that way today. As a matter of fact, after trying literally dozens of different ILF and DAS combinations since then and now, I still choose to shoot that same riser. I have never tried one that I like better...and that includes the second generation Titans.

That is the "honest exchange of information." 

KPC


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## Phil Magistro (Apr 19, 2004)

Kevin, "Let's face it Phil, what really bothers you is that here on AT (at least in my opinion), is that you don't have the power to shut conversations down when they don't happen to go in the direction you prefer."

First off, that's an insult that is completely unwarranted and untrue. And it's beneath you. I never tried to steer a conversation on any subject in the direction I preferred. Lord knows I would have loved to but always tried to be as objective and fair as possible. But I did remove posts that violated the forum rules on numerous subjects, not just this one (including my own posts after I read what I wrote).

The only think that makes it about you is your continued insistence on berating the DAS design because it doesn't meet your ideals. Like we established a long time ago, your opinion is only as valid as the opinion of everyone else. But you have been consistently vocal about this for at least a decade beyond the point of being reasonable.

Now the facts are that I was never a moderator for Tradtalk where at least two of your aliases were banned for this continued berating of DAS bows. And you were never banned from the Leatherwall in spite of the same continued behavior.

I thought we could have somewhat civil conversations but, now that you've shown your true colors, I'm done with you.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Lol, David was on to something as well as Hoyt. ILF is a blame game. I am not sure why that is? We have repeatedly said there is no standard for either riser or limb butt. It appears to be a problem for some users.
Dan


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Phil Magistro said:


> First off, that's an insult that is completely unwarranted and untrue. And it's beneath you. I never tried to steer a conversation on any subject in the direction I preferred. Lord knows I would have loved to but always tried to be as objective and fair as possible. But I did remove posts that violated the forum rules on numerous subjects, not just this one (including my own posts after I read what I wrote).
> 
> The only think that makes it about you is your continued insistence on berating the DAS design because it doesn't meet your ideals. Like we established a long time ago, your opinion is only as valid as the opinion of everyone else. But you have been consistently vocal about this for at least a decade beyond the point of being reasonable.
> 
> ...



Very well Phil, that's fine. Let me remind you however that again, your memory seems to be a little selective.


First of all, I literally can't count the number of DAS vs ILF threads that were closed on the LW for whatever reason. *In my opinion*, it was usually because they went the way of this one. You may not like it, but I simply will not allow people to post things that are inaccurate without refuting them. 


Second, apparently you forgot that my original name on the LW was the same as it is here, *"GEREP."*

Not only was I removed from the LW for a time, I was removed from TT and TG all about the same time as well. Why? Because I was shooting a Titan, and let's face it, certain people despised anything and everything having to do with the Titan, and I stood my ground vehemently whenever someone accused me of things that weren't true, or when I had the audacity to disagree with those that insisted the ILF connection was not suitable for short hunting risers. 

They were wrong, and history shows that to be the case. Furthermore, I will never allow someone to post something about me that isn't accurate without taking issue with it. If that results in me being removed, so be it.

Lastly, I believe we can have civil conversations Phil, but not if they include inaccuracies and accusations that are not true.

Carry on however you choose, as will I.

KPC


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## stevelong (Jan 13, 2010)

GEREP, did you sprain a finger, you laid out only 22 posts in this 58 post thread? don't leave us hanging.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Thanks for bringing this thread back up Steve, I was going to let it die but seeing that you're still interested, I thought I might as well see how your were coming on the following:





stevelong said:


> I think all I've read here in this thread requires me to go back and read more past history - including posts of yours - since you refer back to some old obscure Tradtalk post of mine on the subject.


Have you been able to find any of my previous posts on the subject that were in accurate or that would contradict anything I'm saying now? 

Please do keep us posted.


For those that are interested, I found the following post where Rob Kaufhold (Owner of Lancaster Archery Supply / Tradtech Archery / co-designer of the Tradtech Titan) gave specific and detailed answers to some of the things that David Soza (Designer and previous owner of DAS Bows) had posted about his design vs the ILF design.



[email protected] said:


> *Hello to my fellow traditional archers;
> 
> I've been asked here and elsewhere why I haven't responded to every post or thread on every internet forum; First, I won't be baited into an argument, Second, I avoid belittling anyone else or their products and Third... I don't have the time due to running several successful companies.
> 
> ...





I actually found this to be quite interesting and informative.

Happy New Year!



KPC


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## stevelong (Jan 13, 2010)

nope, I've been busy working on replacing my gauge cluster on my old rusty pickup, along with cleaning up the yard from cutting most of my locust tree branches off over the weekend.......I kind of turned it into a 45 feet tall Q-tip.
I'm not sure I will dig into your past wisdom & postings, it might prove interesting, but given that you are a man of many words, it would likely make me WEARY, haha.
I guess I really won't agonize very much over what twists & turns led to your being booted out of several major archery forums....... I do remember some of it and some of your names.
No doubt it was the other guys' faults.
Happy New Year yourself.


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## creidv (Sep 21, 2008)

I’ll own the fact that I too often neglect my bowstrings. That has cost me one de laminated limb. Two particular incidents come to mind, first, a string broke at full draw on my 21 Das with 55 das longs. Big noise, vibration, but survival. Another string went using a 19” Bosen with Pinnacle 50 ILF’s. Limbs flew, dovetails still connected. They ripped off the riser. Limbs survived, had to through bolt the dovetails.
I’m now using Max 6’s on my Das with ILF conversion, paying better attention to string maintenance. 
Wife permitting, I might spring for a Morrison riser with the bolt down add on..
Anyway, just my story of one reason I like Das. Hard to compete with the availability of ILF though..


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

The Trad Tech pad that I had was polycarbonate not polyurethane about .010" thick. The Das is rubber. I prefer Silicone 1/8" or velcro either way you need to keep a eye on them. Most ILF risers will make a click sound and the pin and spring will buzz. I did like the Trad tech pocket. I filled it on the bottom with silicone and lead shot for better internal weight balance. External is not allowed in my state Trad class. 

The DAS riser give you both options. The Trad Tech doesn't. Both are good hunting risers.

Tempest or CD WF are better bare bow options. Both weight forward designed. 
Tempest has a neutral balance and more deflex. Suited for SR and conventional limbs.
Any of these riser will out shoot me. Lol
Dan


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

When I first got my Titan, I used the vibration pads that came with the limbs but haven't used them for years. I see no difference in the way it sounds, regardless of the limbs I'm using, and apparently the animals I've killed with it don't either.

On my current Uukha limbs, I do use a couple strips of electrical tape but that's more to protect the finish than anything else.

KPC


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Yep, I knew that polycarbonate is not the material I would use either. I removed mine too. Installed poron foam.

Electric tape is not a option I would recommend. 
Dan


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

All depends on what you are using it for I guess. I've never needed anything between the limb and the limb pad to get things quiet.



KPC


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Yep, I knew that polycarbonate is not the material I would use either. I removed mine too. Installed poron foam.
> 
> Electric tape is not a option I would recommend.
> Dan


I used electrical tape too. hasn't seemed to be an issue. If you really want a solid connection with minimal potential for vibration, JB weld


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> I used electrical tape too. hasn't seemed to be an issue. If you really want a solid connection with minimal potential for vibration, JB weld


A better option is a square piece of Velcro with a U shape cut out in the middle placed over the ILF plate in the riser. 
Dan


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

DDSHOOTER said:


> A better option is a square piece of Velcro with a U shape cut out in the middle placed over the ILF plate in the riser.
> Dan


Ah, that does sound nice. Next time I dink, I shall try dinking with velcro


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## Anchor Zero Six (Nov 29, 2010)

Well ok then...70 posts to say some sanding may be required.

And apparently I stumbled across the Ford vs Chevy side of trad archery.

I’ll keep an eye on classified section and eventually will pick up an ILF recurve. Till then I’ll keep shooting my Hill longbows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stevelong (Jan 13, 2010)

thanks for the update!
haha it's good to know you read some of this, and still have a sense of humor about it!!! 
After all, we're all still shooting arrows at stuff......a good common denominator.
good luck in your search.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Anchor Zero Six said:


> Well ok then...70 posts to say some sanding may be required.
> 
> And apparently I stumbled across the Ford vs Chevy side of trad archery.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't sand the limbs or the riser. I would order the Das connection conversion kit. So if you want to sell either the riser of the limbs later. All that is required is pressing out the one connect for the other. 
Dan


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