# Stabilizer Trends, Korea vs Other Countries



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The western big guys and the korean women are diametric opposites but both schools make mathematical sense.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

rjbishop said:


> I dont know if anyone else has noticed this but I find stabilizer trends between Korean shooters and other countries to be interesting and I'm wondering if there is a reason. I watch World Archery videos and see distinct differences between Korean set ups and everyone elses'.
> 
> I know there are plenty that dont follow these trends, but here in the US, many people, especially in the men's divisions, seem to like ultra stiff bars, 30" or more in length, stacked with huge amounts of weight. Most USAT shooters all seem to be shooting very heavy set ups with long bars. They also tend not to use extensions and drop the v-bars down at various angles. Other countries seem to follow this as well. Most of the shooters from the Netherlands use 30" bars with 10 or more oz of weight on the ends. Sjef Vanden Burg quoted in a YouTube video that he uses an entire pound of weight just on his front bar. Sjef is a very good shooter, but hes also struggled with a bow arm shoulder injury in the past year. I wonder if there is any link between it and all the weight he uses.
> 
> ...


I have had the same experience. I was running too much weight for my own strength and abilities. Removing weight has improved my form and my scores. That being sad, I still kept approximately the same ratio of weights and cog. Just have to find what is the minimum effective weight. That’s the maximum efficient weight. 


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

theminoritydude said:


> ... but both schools make mathematical sense.


At these levels of shooting there is no one single flat answer that will serve as an universal answer to an equipment question. It's not like "Oh you betcha, a carbon arrow will shoot better than an arrow made out of a twig."

For example, the Koreans may be putting more into creating a stable platform with their form rather than seeking to establish it with sheer mass and strength. 

The smart shooters, the good shooters, recognize that so much of what they do is some sort of compromise. AND they accept that they will need to expend the effort to figure out the details of that compromise for themselves.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

I have too many stabilizers. I can make same balance at holding and same COG with a 

Lightest: 34” single long rod and 1oz weight 
or 
Heaviest: 30” longrod+5oz, adjustable vbar on riser (no extension) and 13” side rods 7oz. 
Or
Medium (Goldilocks zone for me): 5” extension,carbon vbar, 26” longrod +2.5-3oz, 12” side with 3oz. 

All yield very similar balance about 1” in front of stab bushing on riser. 

I only shoot 37lbs so the heaviest stab setup is too heavy. I’d need more draw weight to “negate” the downward pull of total mass weight. The men shooting 50lbs can add more total mass weight with little ill effect because the draw weight. If I do that it’s just too heavy. 

The 34” longrod with single weight is very light but odd feeling because of my too stiff rod. 

The draw weight and riser mass are very important with regards to mass weight of stabilizer system. This is probably why some people (cough cough viper  say NO VBARS starting out. It’s difficult to make a full vbar system the correct weight for a bow under 35lbs. By the time you get a full stab setup to balance correctly it becomes very mass heavy, the light draw weight does NOT negate the mass and you’re left “holding up” too much mass weight for the draw weight of the bow. 

There’s also a feel issue. Like I mentioned the extra long rod with light weight is very light but odd reaction compared to a rod with more weight on end or a less stiff rod. 

The traditional setup (ext+vbar) gives me best holding, best feel, best mass weight for bow poundage. 

Shorter, really stiff long rod, with vbar on riser with down angle, seems like the best solution for a heavy draw weight bow that can take advantage of more total mass in the system. If the long rod is too long with a lot of weight then it becomes “floppy” and difficult to hold. Better to shorten and stiffen the rod and run the mass weight that best compliments draw weight.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

If you want to stay under 30lbs as final draw weight then a light mass riser and very long long-rod can give great balance and holding with very little total mass weight. Think FiberBow riser, 34” long rod, 1oz end weight. I had this setup at 26lbs and even 1oz weight was too much. I switched to a 32”. 

If heavy draw weight then you can run lots of weight on longrod but you’ll need a shorter and or stiffer rod to deal with the heavier weights and also need to run more weight on vbar/heavier riser to counter balance the heavy weight in the end of the long rod. This is where the vbar closer to riser makes more sense as a vbar on 5” extension can make stab system feel sloppy or move the cog in the wrong direction (too forward).


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Aren't the Koreans still using a double FITA for national team selection?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Draw weight to total mass is one of the parmeters to choose a stab set up, but the other major difference comes from shooting technique. Pushing technique needs less mass but a COG more foreward. Pulling technique needs a lot more of mass to get same forgiveness. Koreans are still 90% at the first solution.
When you combine average draw weight to average shooting technique (and grip shape), solution is quite easy to find.


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## Skropi (Jan 1, 2019)

Vittorio said:


> Draw weight to total mass is one of the parmeters to choose a stab set up, but the other major difference comes from shooting technique. Pushing technique needs less mass but a COG more foreward. Pulling technique needs a lot more of mass to get same forgiveness. Koreans are still 90% at the first solution.
> When you combine average draw weight to average shooting technique (and grip shape), solution is quite easy to find.


Mr. Vittorio, could you please explain the difference between pushing and pulling technique?


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Aren't the Koreans still using a double FITA for national team selection?


Yes.... 

(along with about 4, week long knockouts and round Robin events that whittles down from 32, 16, 12, 8 and then the big final that gets into team A)

... and they thank the powers that be in World Archery every year, that voted to do all the World cups, champs etc... at the "easy" 70m 6 dozen round, because it gives their archers an easier time when they compete against the rest of the world.. 😄

I believe there's an interview with a high up Korean official around the internet that says this after the vote to downgrade the round.


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## Metropolis (Oct 10, 2016)

rjbishop said:


> Other countries seem to follow this as well.


I've always considered the opposite: american trend VS the rest of the world.
The korean style come far from the 90's, maybe before, and is massively used everywhere in the world.
It's just recent that some europeans (Van Den Berg, Valladont...) tune like americans,
and I tend to think the success of Brady Ellison is one of the reason of this influence.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think if everyone shot double 1440s we'd see fewer high mass setups.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

as a side note-the guy who won the Vegas open title yesterday was shooting one of the multi-rod Beiter stabilizers. I remember the 2012 Olympic trials-those things were all over the place. As a judge at US nationals last year, I don't recall seeing hardly any of those. Stabilizer fashions tend to be cyclical


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Jim C said:


> as a side note-the guy who won the Vegas open title yesterday was shooting one of the multi-rod Beiter stabilizers. I remember the 2012 Olympic trials-those things were all over the place. As a judge at US nationals last year, I don't recall seeing hardly any of those. Stabilizer fashions tend to be cyclical


Sergio Pagni has won las Vegas Open for the second time using very unusual set up, that is his standard one since many many years. You only noted the Beiter long rod and a quite short Beiter back rod, but there are other 2 important things that makes his way of shooting and set up working very different from entire rest of the world:
- he is using a drop away rest made in Italy by his friend Cristalli
- he is the only one in the world still using a Cascade release (he got all remaining stock from maker when he went out of business many years ago)
He has used all Hoyt models in the years, ever using same set up. Only thing that changed in years has been the lenght of the long rod and the addition of a very short back rod, to balance better different mass distribution of different bow models. For sure, the way he releases is (because of the Cascade) is very "smooth" in comparison to all others top shooters, and needs a totally different stabs set up.

As said, the shooting style also has a lot of influence on better stabs set up for a specific archer... in compound too.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Skropi said:


> Mr. Vittorio, could you please explain the difference between pushing and pulling technique?


Everyone pushes and everyone pulls. I wish we would use better terminology to communicate what we mean. 

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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Vittorio said:


> Sergio Pagni has won las Vegas Open for the second time using very unusual set up, that is his standard one since many many years. You only noted the Beiter long rod and a quite short Beiter back rod, but there are other 2 important things that makes his way of shooting and set up working very different from entire rest of the world:
> - he is using a drop away rest made in Italy by his friend Cristalli
> - he is the only one in the world still using a Cascade release (he got all remaining stock from maker when he went out of business many years ago)
> He has used all Hoyt models in the years, ever using same set up. Only thing that changed in years has been the lenght of the long rod and the addition of a very short back rod, to balance better different mass distribution of different bow models. For sure, the way he releases is (because of the Cascade) is very "smooth" in comparison to all others top shooters, and needs a totally different stabs set up.
> ...


thanks-do you see the multi rod stabilizers coming back anytime soon?


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Jim C said:


> thanks-do you see the multi rod stabilizers coming back anytime soon?


mines never left, still all i use


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## Jelli (Mar 12, 2016)

is there any benefit to having the vbar rods pointed downwards at an angle? I recall watching Brady’s reasoning on it but I’m curious if anybody has felt a dramatic difference


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I did not, personally. 


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Jelli said:


> is there any benefit to having the vbar rods pointed downwards at an angle? I recall watching Brady’s reasoning on it but I’m curious if anybody has felt a dramatic difference


I do but I have to tweak the angles to suit my preference. I test different positions and see how the positions work best with my shooting progress and I stick with that. Looking at the pros is great but I've always needed to test a setup if it works for me. Depending on the bow, having the rods pointing downward for me with a shorter bar allows a more neutral hold with less forward rolling after I release. I've backed off on the amount of weight on the rods to allow better control of my form and a stable sight picture.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

you mean nobody is using golf clubs anymore?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Jim C said:


> thanks-do you see the multi rod stabilizers coming back anytime soon?


My post was trying to explain why multi rod is still working for Pagni. Discussion about multi-rods stabs can be very complicated, but in short, no, I can't see any possibility in future for them to come back. Anyhow, they are an example of "distributed weight" long rods, that in htese days is reached more easily adding thickness to the carbon walls of a single rod.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Jelli said:


> is there any benefit to having the vbar rods pointed downwards at an angle? I recall watching Brady’s reasoning on it but I’m curious if anybody has felt a dramatic difference


It’s got something to do with where your pressure point is on the grip, during the recoil. The goal is to have the mass center of the bow on the same level as the pressure point when referenced in the same frame of action/reaction of the bow. This does not directly stabilize the bow during the release, what it does is it sets up the bow to efficiently utilize the forward center of mass, that is what really stabilizes the shot.


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## TwentySix (Feb 25, 2011)

Remind me, please—what is the “typical” Korean stab set-up? 4-inch extender, straight v-bar, 28-inch front stab, 10-inch side rods? With only 2-3 ounces of weight on each rod? Is that close?


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## richang (Oct 4, 2016)

I think most of the koreans are with 4 to 5 inch extender, with 26 to 28 inch long rods.
Roughly a decade ago, there used to be 5 to 6 inch extender.


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## naveedgt (May 9, 2012)

I asked MK Korea what the typical size stabs Koreans use and this was there answer for Kim Woojin: 28 inch long rod, 12 inch short rods and a 5 inch extender with 45 degree v-bar. No idea about weights.


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