# True Pro Tournament



## tnt1

I am looking at putting together a true pro tournament and would like the input from the Pro's. What is it that you want to bring you to these tournaments....ie......payouts? tourney points ? contingency ?


----------



## blueglide1

It will have to be an NFAA sanctioned tournament first, before any of these things mentioned will count.If the payouts are high enough, and no conflicting tournaments are scheduled then you might have a good chance on participation.Good Luck.
Don Ward


----------



## tnt1

Thanks Don
Keep the input coming !!! really want to do it right !


----------



## ROSKO P

Why would the tournament have to be NFAA sanctioned?


----------



## FV Chuck

ROSKO P said:


> Why would the tournament have to be NFAA sanctioned?


It's the only Org that requires a "Pro Card"... everyone else just has a higher entry fee to be a Pro.


----------



## 60Xbulldog60X

I have been saying it all along. If the payouts were higher down the line, archers would be more willing to participate. Can't ask the manufacturers to do any more than what they are doing. They are already doing alot with the contingency along with supporting quite a few archers. The problem is not at the top of the payouts. It's after third place and down that really hampers the participation in my eyes. Most people are reluctant to put up $200.00 - $300.00 entry fee to not even get that back if they finish from fourth down to the last payed position. From fourth on down is where the real problem with payouts exists. 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Take care,

Kendall


----------



## TeamWinker

I haven't turned Pro yet but I plan to in the next 1-2 years, I would likely turn sooner if I knew I had a better chance at recouping some of the investment it takes to shoot in the Pro class. Right now it would just be handing someone else my money.


----------



## FV Chuck

Rubbersidown said:


> I haven't turned Pro yet but I plan to in the next 1-2 years, I would likely turn sooner if I knew I had a better chance at recouping some of the investment it takes to shoot in the Pro class. Right now it would just be handing someone else my money.


Looking at your sig line I have one question already??? 

How are you PRO staff and not a PRO?


----------



## field14

Chuck,
I'm on 'Pro Staff' of some sponsors, too....and NOT a "card carrying Pro". So?

I don't understand what you are driving at? There are AMATEURS that are indeed on "Pro Staff" for archery manuf, string makers, etc. It is likely semantics and 'hair-splitting' is all...

I tend to agree with Kendall about payouts from 4th on down....
I see that Iowa paid down 20 places in $M-FS...which is good; that keeps people coming back to give it a try. They know they cannot necessarily WIN IT...but they smell a chance of recouping their registration fee if they do halfway decent. NOTHING wrong with that, since without participation....you ain't gonna have but a handful show up and pay their registration fee to give it a whirl. PARTICIPATION is what it is about...if the Championship Division is to grow. Can't have a decent Championship purse...if only a few register in the Championship Division (25 people at $80 each is way less than 75 people @$80 each). They will NOT show if they don't think they stand a chance. Just sayin'....

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Stihlpro

I have to agree with Chuck, They don't want to INVEST in the PRO class because *"I would likely turn sooner if I knew I had a better chance at recouping some of the investment it takes to shoot in the Pro class. Right now it would just be handing someone else my money."* But they want to advertise as one without all the extra effort, money and time it takes to compete at this level. Just my 2 cents.....


----------



## field14

Stihlpro said:


> I have to agree with Chuck, They don't want to INVEST in the PRO class because *"I would likely turn sooner if I knew I had a better chance at recouping some of the investment it takes to shoot in the Pro class. Right now it would just be handing someone else my money."* But they want to advertise as one without all the extra effort, money and time it takes to compete at this level. Just my 2 cents.....


Yes, I see your point..>BUT....."they" (non card carrying "pros") still pay the SAME entry fee to those tournaments, and they are THERE, putting in their time, effort, and money to TRY to compete at that level. It will be interesting to see what happens when/if the "Championship" Division at VEGAS is limited ONLY to "card carrying Pros" and NOT open to anyone that is willing to pay the "championship Division" registration fee as it is now structured....Could be good...but I'm thinkin'......

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Stihlpro

Thats assuming "They" Shoot the Championship Division......I believe this specific person does not....


----------



## FV Chuck

Tom-

2 points real quick...

#1) Pro Staff indicates "Pro Status".... riding that name and not being a Pro devalues the rest of us that are. I find it somewhat offensive and I dont approve of it. Field, Advisory, Factory, Shooting, Team...all of those words are fine and can certainly designate some elite amateur status... but "Pro" staff is misleading at best to the consumer and the sponsor. Semantics?... maybe but there is a difference and it should be reserved for those that actually are.

#2) So your saying that if you dont stand a chance in winning you wont shoot??? I call BS. 99% of the people in any event don't for one second think they can beat Jesse, Shane, Chance, Levi, Reo, Braden, Christie, Holly, Erika...or whoever - but they show up anyway. They try like heck to do their best.....


----------



## field14

Chuck,
Like it or not...>SOME "sponsors" WILL put 'amateurs' on their PRO staffs; just the way it is and has been for years. There isn't any "riding" about this. Might be misleading...but...if an amateur is accepted as a "pro staff" member for a sponsor they sure aren't going to turn it down. The amateur didn't "name" the staff level being given out. The SPONSOR is in control of what they call it, plain and simple. Should be named differently, maybe...but...semantics and splitting-hairs. 
I know that many of us "mere mortals" that are on 'Pro Staff' for our sponsors are NOT going to give it back and ask them to change the name of the level of staff just cuz some "card carrying Pro(s)" don't like the terminology. 
The world of competitive archery isn't "centered" on the PROS; plain and simple. Certainly a PRO Division is needed, I'll never say it isn't, but ALL of those "Pros" were "Joes" at some time during their careers, and eventually will either quit, or will be back to shooting with the Joes sometime in the future; some sooner than others. Can't forget your roots and who pays the bills for having the events in the first place.

On your second point...When I shot PRO back in the 1980's...I only won a couple of small events....paid my dues, and ran the gauntlet. It was a good experience and worth it, IMHO. I learned more in that time period that one can imagine; both about myself and about competitive archery.
I'm not at a competitive level anymore to where it is worth my money and time to even go. This, is thanks to people with traps that should be kept shut when they don't know what they're talking about..but that is another story and a waste of time going over; doesn't have a thing to do with "card carrying Pros". 

I'll guarantee you that IF the pay-downs were reduced to only the top 10 of say 50 or more in any 'Championship' class...that the following year(s) there WILL be fewer in those Championship classes. Paying down deeper keeps people that KNOW they ain't gonna WIN in that Championship Division, cuz they know they DO stand a chance of "being in the money". 
I also know for a fact that there are people that ante up at Vegas to shoot the Championship Division...simply because they don't want to shoot at 7AM on Sunday. Others ante up to shoot Championship Divisions so that they and their spouses or significant other can shoot at the same time instead of being spread out. They pay the SAME registration fee and just cuz they don't carry a card...should not exclude them from being able to ante up...it is THEIR money they are paying, and can do with it what they want.

Your 99% number is probably quite high...there are, on any given day...15-20 that CAN beat the likes of Levi, Reo, Chance, Jesse, Dave, Braden, Christie, Holly Erika.... and have done it in the past, and will do it again in the future. Some are testing the water, too, just to see how they fare and compare.
Make it MANDATORY to have a Pro Card to shoot in any Championship Division...and watch those numbers of participants tumble.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## TeamWinker

Promotional staff or staff shooter, Kinsey's labels all their staff shooters as Pro Staff



FV Chuck said:


> Looking at your sig line I have one question already???
> 
> How are you PRO staff and not a PRO?


----------



## TeamWinker

Signature fixed, I didn't realize I was stepping on toes it was just the label assigned to the position.

John your right, "they" (I) don't currently shoot the championship division but only because I'm not ready yet, I'm moving in that direction as quickly as I can and I'm sure I'll pay to shoot with the pros for a fair amount of time before I stand to win anything. You should know that first hand, seems l'm like I'm always on the paying end of our games. One thing you can't get on the Non-Pro line is the experience of shooting on the line next to the best of the best and seeing how you hold up under the pressure. This is why I always try to shoot with those who are better than me or will drive me to be better.

My original point was that if the payouts went down the line-up a little further it would be incentive to people like me who aspire to become Pro to make that conversion a little sooner in hopes we could recoup a little more a little faster.


----------



## FV Chuck

Tom / John -

The POINT I'm trying to make is this...

If anyone... any archer, fisherman, gun guy, bowler, tiddly winker, hula hooper, yo-yo'er, nosepicker ....whatever

If it says PRO Staff, you should be one, that's all

Not a soapbox, or preaching or anything... just my opinion.


----------



## FV Chuck

See... Nice touch John. 

Thanks for that man, I appreciate it.... well done

Yeah as for the donation part on the entry fees.... dude, I know how you feel trust me....but, part of the game bro. 
If it makes you feel better call the entry fees lessons... cause thats what all of us are getting out there the line usually LOL...


----------



## blueglide1

There are the two main differences that most seem to miss. Promotional Staff is [[[[not!!!]]]] PROFFESIONAL STAFF!!!!!!!!!!!Just because they have the same first three letters doesnt mean they are alike.You can be on a {PROMOTIONAL} staff for strings and the like,but better to spell out the whole word as to not confuse the two.I think some people like the confusion it brings.
There my 3 cents.LOL Don Ward


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> See... Nice touch John.
> 
> Thanks for that man, I appreciate it.... well done
> 
> Yeah as for the donation part on the entry fees.... dude, I know how you feel trust me....but, part of the game bro.
> If it makes you feel better call the entry fees lessons... cause thats what all of us are getting out there the line usually LOL...


Chuck,
I feel that the idea of paying down deeper will always turn out for the better is because there are a lot of people out there that know they can't win the whole cajuna...but only have a goal to finish "in the money." 
It isn't ALL about the top 4 or 5...cuz where does the money come from? Those that ante up in hopes of getting some or all of their registration fee back. That is incentive enough for them, and frankly, you and I know there are a LOT of those. Take that away, and many are going to opt out, the registration part of the purse will drop like a rock because participation is down.

We mere mortals cannot tell our sponsors how to "name" their staff positions; it is simple terminology and so be it. Apparently, there are a lot of sponsors out there that don't really 'care' if the person they are sponsoring is a "pro" or not...they don't get these people on the "what can I (the sponsor) do for YOU (the "pro"), but rather...what the sponsored party can do FOR the sponsor.
You will recall that parent in Vegas a few years back, you were the one approached...that told you that her son had "shirt space" that she could sell to you so he could put your logo on his shirt? That didn't sit with either of us well at all...cuz again...that case was all about the candidate trying to tell you what YOU must do for him...and not the other way around.

So many contracts being violated and not met up to...by "sponsored people"...Pros and Joes alike...and it torques me off royally, cuz they are looking a gift horse in the mouth. It ruins things for everyone and gives those abused sponsors a bad taste in their mouths.

I have two words that would, if at all possible, really help out the NFAA Pro organization (and the other Pro orgs too): PUBLICITY CHAIRPERSON, and that likely should NOT be the "NFAA Pro Rep", you have enough to do. Just sayin'.....

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Stihlpro

blueglide1 said:


> There are the two main differences that most seem to miss. Promotional Staff is [[[[not!!!]]]] PROFFESIONAL STAFF!!!!!!!!!!!Just because they have the same first three letters doesnt mean they are alike.You can be on a {PROMOTIONAL} staff for strings and the like,but better to spell out the whole word as to not confuse the two.I think some people like the confusion it brings.
> There my 3 cents.LOL Don Ward


I agree, they know it is PROmotional staff but try to work the confusion to their advantage. There is a difference but usually the PROmotional staff guys don't push the promotional part...And lead everyone to believe they are associated with a PROfessional source. Which can be a negative thing if they do not have standards and do things that would be deemed illegal/cheating at a sanctioned event.


----------



## Stihlpro

And as long as I have been in this game the majority of STAFF shooters have no idea about the product they are SUPPOSED to be promoting. They cannot and will not help out another shooter because they are clueless themselves. Most just use staff positions to get free or discounted products. DISGRACE! There are a lot of helpfull STAFF shooters but they are hard to find.


----------



## field14

Stihlpro said:


> And as long as I have been in this game the majority of STAFF shooters have no idea about the product they are SUPPOSED to be promoting. They cannot and will not help out another shooter because they are clueless themselves. Most just use staff positions to get free or discounted products. DISGRACE! There are a lot of helpfull STAFF shooters but they are hard to find.


I certainly agree with both what Don and also Stihlpro have to say! They are spot on. Notice that almost always, the person that claims "Pro Staff" doesn't use the words "Professional Staff"? Overuse of the abbreviation? Perhaps, but again, in some cases, there are amateurs out there that indeed are, because of the way that company words things, on "Professional Staff"; be it a misnomer or not.
Then of course come the wannabees that say they are when they really aren't? We all know that if everyone that claims they are shooting "for" this or that or those companies really were shooting "for" those companies...those same companies would be out of business, because they wouldn't be selling any product, but rather giving it all away! Not likely, now is it?
So many are in it for any "freebies" they can get. Some have a gazillion patches on their shirts and like you say, are clueless about those products and companies; it is all about "I", the "ME"; and the words "WE" or "US" aren't part of their vocabulary. It sure does give them a "woody" to show off to their friends, however. 
There are also some "Pros" out there that thank heavens the doors are wider for getting into the shooting venues; otherwise, they'd never get their heads through the doorways, ha.:wink::tongue:

Takes all sorts to keep this world of ours spinning.


----------



## Ditch Pickle

Back to the thred what is the pros and cons of haveing
a pro shoot or sanction shoot verses just a open shoot for good money


----------



## field14

You've just seen some of both in the discussion...don't pay down... = fewer participants. PRO ONLY? well...what about participation and a balance? Where will your "purse" come from? You must have lots of participants if the "purse" only comes from the registration fees.....

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Ditch Pickle

What I am asking for is the Pro's and Con's of a pro- sanctioned shoot vs. an open shoot with good money ,
resonable food prices, drawings, raffels, and novelty shoots. To keep funds up for the shooters pay back money. 
Thank you....


----------



## shootist

How many of the card carrying pros make their living shooting archery? If we are talking semantics, an argument can be made that calling yourself a professional archer is not accurate unless your primary source of income is from shooting archery. Just sayin'...

As far as the topic at hand, I do not think a Pro Only shoot would generate enough interest outside of the Pro Class to be successful unless you can get major sponsors. If you can successfully make it happen though...more power to you. It would definitely draw interest if you have many of the nation's best archers in a building by themselves battling it out.


----------



## Stihlpro

shootist said:


> How many of the card carrying pros make their living shooting archery? If we are talking semantics, an argument can be made that calling yourself a professional archer is not accurate unless your primary source of income is from shooting archery. Just sayin'...
> 
> As far as the topic at hand, I do not think a Pro Only shoot would generate enough interest outside of the Pro Class to be successful unless you can get major sponsors. If you can successfully make it happen though...more power to you. It would definitely draw interest if you have many of the nation's best archers in a building by themselves battling it out.


There is much more to being a PROfessional Archer than just making a living at it. Thats what people don't understand. There is a lot of BTS work involved and it has too be your life, your passion your motivation....Not just a hobby and walking around with your hand out asking for free SH**.


----------



## Stihlpro

Just Sayin'.....:darkbeer:


----------



## Stihlpro

field14 said:


> I certainly agree with both what Don and also Stihlpro have to say! They are spot on. Notice that almost always, the person that claims "Pro Staff" doesn't use the words "Professional Staff"? Overuse of the abbreviation? Perhaps, but again, in some cases, there are amateurs out there that indeed are, because of the way that company words things, on "Professional Staff"; be it a misnomer or not.
> Then of course come the wannabees that say they are when they really aren't? We all know that if everyone that claims they are shooting "for" this or that or those companies really were shooting "for" those companies...those same companies would be out of business, because they wouldn't be selling any product, but rather giving it all away! Not likely, now is it?
> So many are in it for any "freebies" they can get. Some have a gazillion patches on their shirts and like you say, are clueless about those products and companies; it is all about "I", the "ME"; and the words "WE" or "US" aren't part of their vocabulary. It sure does give them a "woody" to show off to their friends, however.
> 
> There are also some "Pros" out there that thank heavens the doors are wider for getting into the shooting venues; otherwise, they'd never get their heads through the doorways, ha.:wink::tongue:
> 
> Takes all sorts to keep this world of ours spinning.


:thumbs_up


----------



## shootist

Stihlpro said:


> There is much more to being a PROfessional Archer than just making a living at it. Thats what people don't understand. There is a lot of BTS work involved and it has too be your life, your passion your motivation....Not just a hobby and walking around with your hand out asking for free SH**.


Agreed, and you don't have to shoot the pro class to do all the work that you are referring to.


----------



## blueglide1

There are some good points discussed here.Both sides of the isle have valid arguements.If we were to say exclusively that only Professional archers that make a living{ ONLY }by shooting archery, are true Professionals then there are about, say ten at the most.95% of us have real 7 to 5 jobs that pay the mortgages and the other bills.But few are lucky enough to really make a profit that the tax man shows at the end of the year.Our expenses and writes offs count just like the lucky few, and are profits arent what theirs are,but there is profits if you take the time to perfect your sport.I would like a 90k per year contract,I know I will never get one.But there is enough out there to make it worth your while if you put in the time and attain it.You dont just go to the T shirt shop and have Pro Staff printed on your shirt,you have to earn it.Every guy out there that you see with a Factory Pro Staff or Factory Staff shirt did it the hard way.They werent just thrown a shirt and told to walk around with a swollen head.Strive to be the best and it could happen to you. Don Ward


----------



## Stihlpro

blueglide1 said:


> There are some good points discussed here.Both sides of the isle have valid arguements.If we were to say exclusively that only Professional archers that make a living{ ONLY }by shooting archery, are true Professionals then there are about, say ten at the most.95% of us have real 7 to 5 jobs that pay the mortgages and the other bills.But few are lucky enough to really make a profit that the tax man shows at the end of the year.Our expenses and writes offs count just like the lucky few, and are profits arent what theirs are,but there is profits if you take the time to perfect your sport.I would like a 90k per year contract,I know I will never get one.But there is enough out there to make it worth your while if you put in the time and attain it.You dont just go to the T shirt shop and have Pro Staff printed on your shirt,you have to earn it.Every guy out there that you see with a Factory Pro Staff or Factory Staff shirt did it the hard way.They werent just thrown a shirt and told to walk around with a swollen head.Strive to be the best and it could happen to you. Don Ward


Well written Don.


----------



## shootist

blueglide1 said:


> There are some good points discussed here.Both sides of the isle have valid arguements.If we were to say exclusively that only Professional archers that make a living{ ONLY }by shooting archery, are true Professionals then there are about, say ten at the most.95% of us have real 7 to 5 jobs that pay the mortgages and the other bills.But few are lucky enough to really make a profit that the tax man shows at the end of the year.Our expenses and writes offs count just like the lucky few, and are profits arent what theirs are,but there is profits if you take the time to perfect your sport.I would like a 90k per year contract,I know I will never get one.But there is enough out there to make it worth your while if you put in the time and attain it.You dont just go to the T shirt shop and have Pro Staff printed on your shirt,you have to earn it.Every guy out there that you see with a Factory Pro Staff or Factory Staff shirt did it the hard way.They werent just thrown a shirt and told to walk around with a swollen head.Strive to be the best and it could happen to you. Don Ward


I agree, and I don't believe you have to make your income from archery to be a pro. I was playing devil's advocate a bit, because others were saying that you shouldn't say you are on a pro staff if you don't shoot pro. That should be up to the company providing the equipment/funds to say, not people on Archerytalk. 

I mean, realistically, what does somebody have to do to be a "pro"? I thought you just had to pay the fee. If that is the case, it isn't real exclusive.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

I highly doubt any of the "Card Carrying Pro's" would turn down all the regular "Joe's" entry fee money if they won though. You put out a "BIG" payout and you'll get a bunch of great shooters to compete for it, no matter who wants to shoot for it. I doubt the top end pro's don't worry too much about a bunch of Joe's taking the big check home. I'm sure they know who they have to beat.

Doesn't Lancaster's shoot run it like that???

I think the Lower end of the Pro division are the ones worried about getting "shown up" by regular Joe's is the bigger issue for some.


----------



## field14

Yes, Lancaster's, Utah Open, I think Idaho Open, Presley's, Kansas City Shootout, Iowa Pro-AM, VEGAS, ALL allow anyone willing to ante up the registration fee to shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP Division. Do NOT have to carry a Pro card to shoot in the Championship.

I do NOT look at it as being "shown up" by regular Joes like some probably do. A 688 out of 690 to win the Championship Division is still a 688...and you will have shot close to, if not on the same bale as the second place guy anyways...or...took him/her down in the shoot off. Joe or card carrying pro? Doesn't matter...he/she anted up the same registration fee.
Without all those extra 'non-card carrying' shooters in the Championship Divisions, there may well not be very many left.
It is like paying down deeper...I seriously doubt that anyone finishing 17th would just walk up to the 1st place person and hand him/her their check because the 17th place shooter didn't "deserve to be cut a check.":wink::tongue:
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## blueglide1

I dont know how many enter a Golf tournament say the US Open.But they also dont tell you how many dont make the cut.Im guessing it could be hundreds enter,and say whoever gets on TV are the lucky few.At least in archery you are there for the duration.They dont weed out 75% to sit on the bench, and watch the upper crust fight it out for your money.You get as much chance to win as the winner himself.Its up to you to put it in the middle.Its not the Pros fault that he puts in the time to perfect his craft.Ive been at this a long time, almost 30yrs.I was a mens open Pro for 7 yrs.I knew I couldnt reach the pinnicle back then, but I was in there trying.I finally got burnt out and quit archery totally for 3 yrs never even wanting to do anything but hunt.I got the itch back, and went to my state tournament after 1 month of practice.I lost a little muscle memory,but it came back quickly enough to win the amature MFS.It took two more years,and my first trip to Presleys Midwest Open.Thats was the spark that got me to Iowa,then Vegas,each win gave me enough cash to go to the next.I won all three money pro divs,as an amature!I then turned Pro knowing that that was were I wanted to be.With the top guys still trying to perfect my game.Hoyt signed me on, then sponsors were easy to attain.So I guess it boils down to how bad you want it.All Im trying to say here,without sounding like Im tooting my own horn is to show you that, YOU!, yes YOU!, can also go down this path.Dont look down at the Pros thinking they are taking your amature money,because alot of the time it is the amature taking the Pros money too! SHOOT STRAIGHT MY FRIENDS!
DON WARD


----------



## blueglide1

I forgot to mention that the wins were in the senior Pro Division. Sorry.LOL


----------



## tnt1

Thanks guys.... this is helping....keep the info coming...This is what its going to take to do it right. I started this thread for this reason....I want to put on a tournament that will bring in the biggests names and the best shooters (Professionals)(card carrying I don't care) And give the opportunity for the (Joes) or (wannabes) to ante up and try to beat them So I will go back and ask the question.... What does it take to get the Big Dogs There? 
Don and all of you are being extremely informative And I thank you.... I want to plan the right tournament to benefit the (pro) and yet give that (joe) his shot at them


----------



## Mike2787

First, it's going to take some guaranteed money. Depending on how many you want but if you want a lot of big name pros, you will need to pay $5000.00 for first and pay maybe 15-20 places. You will need to contact manufacturers and get a promise of contingency money. The most important thing is to have a well run, well organized tournament. Targets that don't shoot through. Start and end when the time is specified. A set of rules that are clear and straight forward. Most important is that every competitor that attends feels like they are appreciated for being there. Lancaster Archery's Classic is an example of a tournament that does this already.


----------



## field14

Mike2787 said:


> First, it's going to take some guaranteed money. Depending on how many you want but if you want a lot of big name pros, you will need to pay $5000.00 for first and pay maybe 15-20 places. You will need to contact manufacturers and get a promise of contingency money. The most important thing is to have a well run, well organized tournament. Targets that don't shoot through. Start and end when the time is specified. A set of rules that are clear and straight forward. Most important is that every competitor that attends feels like they are appreciated for being there. Lancaster Archery's Classic is an example of a tournament that does this already.


Agreed...BUT...Lancaster's STILL lets "non-card carrying" people shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP Division, for the MONEY...They have to ante up and pay the same fees, but they still are allowed to shoot even if they are NOT "card-carrying Professionals".

You are NOT going to find but a very, very few GUARANTEED $5,000 first place tournaments...First off, the archery manuf. can't give out that kind of money to every John, Dick, and Harry shoot that wants a contribution...Secondly...it is NOT all about the MEN'S Freestyle either...What about the WOMEN? What about the SENIORS? What about the BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE? What about the FREESTYLE Limited? What about the newest...MASTER SENIOR FREESTYLE? Giving the LION's Share to only the MEN's FREESTYLE and "robbing" from Peter to pay Paul (term used loosely) isn't exactly hoyle either. NOW...if the percentage of the Men's Freestylers, because they have the overwhelmingly highest percentage of total participants, then fine...but even then, if they have 60% of that total..then they should get 60% of the total purse to their division...and not anything MORE than that, just sayin'......Then, if the number of competitors warrants paying 15-20 places, you do so.
For example: 53 shooters in a class, according to the NFAA payout chart that was around for many years warrants 18 places paid down..._BUT...there are those that will argue than anyone below 10th....doesn't deserve a dime and are taking it away from those that finish higher and 'robbing' first thru 4th places!!!_

There are those other division's competitors that work just as hard...and should get their % cut of the pie; just sayin'....

field14 (Tom D.)
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## kward598

Field, that is were a clear cut set of rules need to apply. How many time have we seen the rules seem to take on a life of thier own from event to event? Also the entry fees would be very large to have a large purse? Would the professionals be willing to pay say a 500 entry to compete? 
There was talk of this a few years back between some of the men pros. But I believe they were counting on thier sponsors to foot the bill for higher entry, travel, etc. Is this indoor, outdoor, target, 3d? 
What is the thinking behind Professionals only event? Just wondering


----------



## field14

Kward,
That is what I"m wondering too....IF the host range can't get "contingency" (THAT only goes so far with manufacturers, too), then the entry fees are going to have to be really up there in order to 'guarantee' much of anything...and then, that "guarantee" has to be hinged upon a certain NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS showing up; otherwise....that "guarantee" is no longer a guarantee and obviously will become lower and lower if that number of participants isn't reached.
Money doesn't grow on trees....and WITHOUT the "joes" that do sign up in hopes of trying to finish 'in the money', then getting that participation level becomes even more difficult for the host club/range.

This topic has been discussed and brutalized ever since I've been in the game...like since 1968, and probably before that, too. 
Ever since...the same old game and discussion....PROS wanting the MORE MONEY, amateurs wanting to shoot for money too...and be able to bounce back and forth between money and amateur; bottom end "pros" wanting to do the same thing...at the time and place of their choosing. Amateurs griping that pros keep jumping back and forth...pros keep complaining that amateurs jump back and forth.
Mike has been around the block, too, and knows of what I speak. I don't know the answer to this debacle. But I know that prohibiting the Joes from competing at all in "money" or "Championship" divisions when/if they pay up the required entry fees is NOT the way to go. You won't have the support you need to sustain any decent purse Make it what you want, but 80% of 30 people is a lot different than 80% of 74 people's entry fees going to the pot.

That is why I suggested a "publicity chairperson" for the NFAA PROS...and that the NFAA Pro Rep not be shackled with it.
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## tnt1

QUOTE=field14;1062977010]Agreed...BUT...Lancaster's STILL lets "non-card carrying" people shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP Division, for the MONEY...They have to ante up and pay the same fees, but they still are allowed to shoot even if they are NOT "card-carrying Professionals".

You are NOT going to find but a very, very few GUARANTEED $5,000 first place tournaments...First off, the archery manuf. can't give out that kind of money to every John, Dick, and Harry shoot that wants a contribution...Secondly...it is NOT all about the MEN'S Freestyle either...What about the WOMEN? What about the SENIORS? What about the BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE? What about the FREESTYLE Limited? What about the newest...MASTER SENIOR FREESTYLE? Giving the LION's Share to only the MEN's FREESTYLE and "robbing" from Peter to pay Paul (term used loosely) isn't exactly hoyle either. NOW...if the percentage of the Men's Freestylers, because they have the overwhelmingly highest percentage of total participants, then fine...but even then, if they have 60% of that total..then they should get 60% of the total purse to their division...and not anything MORE than that, just sayin'......Then, if the number of competitors warrants paying 15-20 places, you do so.
For example: 53 shooters in a class, according to the NFAA payout chart that was around for many years warrants 18 places paid down..._BUT...there are those that will argue than anyone below 10th....doesn't deserve a dime and are taking it away from those that finish higher and 'robbing' first thru 4th places!!!_

There are those other division's competitors that work just as hard...and should get their % cut of the pie; just sayin'....

field14 (Tom D.)
field14 (Tom D.)[/QUOTE]

Why should a tournament have to offer all these classes? Why shouldn't each class pay for themselves? Lets go back to the threads origination "TRUE PRO TOURNAMENT" 
I've done the math and know I could offer a $5000.00 top prize for 60 entry fees @ $250.00 and pay down to 20th Place....So again I ask .... Would that be a big enough payout without gouging the entry fee to high?
I don't want to alienate any shooters but I want to "think outside the box" and forget the classifications, forget the large organizations and the required blah blah blah....Why not go back to simplicity. The best of the best shooting it off (THE PROS) and anyone that wants to ante up (THE JOES) can shoot against them. 
Women, Men, Seniors, the best of the best all for one purse? Why not? I am not looking to have a tournament with 1000 participants. that's what the large organizations are for. I would like to see a tournament where its the best of the best with people coming to watch. Simply put you don't go to a pro football game and think your gonna have the coach ask you to play. Its the PROFESSIONAL athlete who is competing...Is that not acceptable in archery?


----------



## deadx

To the OP......if you have joes competing with card carrying NFAA pros it is NOT a pro tournament, it is a Championship tournament. If there was a Pro organization and not just NFAA pros then you could approach non-endemic sponsors and have a genuine Pro tounament with real pro payouts far down the line. I, for one, don`t like the idea of shooting with archers who are not NFAA pros in a championship tournament. If they beat you once in awhile they can say "What is so special about being a pro archer?". All your hard work and expense to get where you are now is for nothing. Amateurs beat pros once in awhile. It happens, but that does not mean they are consistently pro-caliber all the time. If you want to have a pro tournament, as it stands right now, you will be approaching only NFAA pros which is ok but then you will probably be getting the NFAA involved somewhere and things will get messy and they will want their cut for their involvement and somebody who doesn`t like the sponsors you have for your tournament will torpedo your attempt to even put on the tournament in the first place. If there was a stand-alone pro organization then anyone with sponsors lined up could announce their tournament and the rules would be spelled out in advance and all they have to worry about is targets, format, and paying deep into the field. Frankly speaking, archery tournaments with $5,000 offered as first place winnings are a joke because it is almost guaranteed that there is NOT going to be a deep payout so that the other archers who don`t win are just incurring another expense to shoot in yet another ho-hum tournament. It is impossible right now to put on a large pro tournament with a huge payout from 1st through, say, 20th because you will have no pro organization to present to potential big money sponsors. More power to you if you can put on an archery tournament with $5,000 payout for 1st place but I think you were thinking about a total payout of $5,000 which is not enough to draw much of a shooting crowd. 
Don Ward has written an excellent example of what it might take to achieve shooting on the pro level and I think many of us card carrying NFAA pros have gone through what he did to more or less the same extent.
Having said all this I like your idea of eliminating all of the "classes" and just having shooters shoot what they bring. You have good ideas but remember that sponsors want some sort of media coverage for their sponsorship dollars be it internet, which works very well, or TV, which is the best. Having the tournament filmed and televised would be the best but probably far beyond your present capabilities.


----------



## field14

"_Why not go back to simplicity. The best of the best shooting it off (THE PROS) and anyone that wants to ante up (THE JOES) can shoot against them.
Women, Men, Seniors, the best of the best all for one purse? Why not?"_

@Tnt1:
I think deadX said it above concerning that it won't be a "Pro" tournament, but rather a "Championship" tournament by letting non-card carrying competitors ante up and pay the fees to shoot for the Money. It would just be another "Championship" Tournament. In actuality, in that regard...there are NOT ANY "True Professional" tournaments in the United States at this time. The closest to that may be the field tournaments being held in Europe during the summers where "Pros" are invited to compete for rather large sums of money??? Dave Cousins has been dominating those events for the past few years and I think he is 6 for 6 in those. I could be wrong about the invites and PROS ONLY part of it, however.

I'm not going to take the time to do it, but it might be an interesting effort (since you are interested in a single Division, with everyone all lumped together) for _you_ to combine ALL of the Championship Shooters together by TOTAL SCORE (Men's FS, Ladies FS, Men's FS-L, Men's BH-FS and Senior Men's FS) from the Iowa Pro-Am and then sort that in descending order. Do the same with the Presley's shoot as a separate entity. THEN...take and combine both those tournaments' scores (CHAMPIONSHIP SHOOTERS ONLY) and sort the combined into descending order. Keep duplicates of the same person in that 3rd listing, because some of those do compete in both events. The important thing here isn't the person, but rather the total score.
Then, once you see those results, I think you will see why ONE BIG GROUP that lumps all of the "Money Shooters" (call them Pros if you want) into one gaggle and pays down is likely not to work. The FS-L won't place in the top 20, so they won't get a dime our of their efforts. I don't think too many $M-BH-FS will place in the top 20, nor will more than a couple of $SR-M-FS, and maybe one or two $F-FS. 
Why would they waste all the time, effort, and expense to enter an event where they are lumped together all in one for literally no chance of recouping what they've spent? Is there a "Pecking Order"? Likely so. Pay close attention to how each Shooting Class finishes and their positioning on the lists...

Again, I'm not going to do the combining and sorting and what is above represents my "thoughts" on what those results might well be.
DeadX is right when he talks about time, money, and effort to shoot Pro...BUT...he also should be considering the fact that those higher echelon amateurs have worked just as hard, if not harder, to get to the level where they can actually compete with those "Pros"...and most of them have done it ON THEIR OWN DIMES.
In additon, there are MANY "Pros" that do NOT sustain scores that are even close to competitive enough to consistently place in the top 20, let alone the top 5-10.
I think I read somewhere, where that item concerning a level of scoring is being dealt with concerning a person's "eligibility" to become a card carrying Pro; as it well should be. Simply anteing up the annual "NFAA Pro Dues" shouldn't necessarily be the path to becoming a "Professional Archer." The NFAA Pro organization, I believe is in the process of revamping this and other portions of what you gotta do to be an "NFAA Pro." This is a good thing!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## hailwiz

Simple solution to this, have a money pro class with pro card and a money class that the entry fee is less for top amateurs. As far as the discussion about pro vs pro staff the guys who are staff shooters know where they stand and if they want to act like a pro then so what that is their right. You as a pro know your a pro and know who the other pros are so why do you care what they think of themselves. I personally don't care if a guy is a pro or an amateur we are all there for the same thing, to compete in a sport and do our best. I see so called pro's also that should not be shooting in the pro class and i don't care that is what they think they are then so what.


----------



## 60x backstrap

hailwiz said:


> Simple solution to this, have a money pro class with pro card and a money class that the entry fee is less for top amateurs. As far as the discussion about pro vs pro staff the guys who are staff shooters know where they stand and if they want to act like a pro then so what that is their right. You as a pro know your a pro and know who the other pros are so why do you care what they think of themselves. I personally don't care if a guy is a pro or an amateur we are all there for the same thing, to compete in a sport and do our best. I see so called pro's also that should not be shooting in the pro class and i don't care that is what they think they are then so what.


Don't mean to eavesdrop however I couldn't agree more! I'd weed out some of these so called pros with pro cards who simply paid their financial dues and not the ones that count,(experience)!! Drives me nuts when you scratch up money to take your whole family to a bigger shoot and even pay extra for a Pro-Am and beet your so called Pro. I understand we all have our good and bad days but some of the card carrying pros are in it only for the attention they get from the title. I haven't turned pro yet because I don't have a schedule that will allow it. Indoor is my thing and you bet I pay attention to what, why, and how the real pro's shoot but I'm not going to pay an outlandish entrance fee for a lesson. IMO deeper payouts draw guys like me who can compete but may not make the top 10. Not to mention I have two competing kids that donate their whole entrance fee to the pro class at the big shoots.


----------



## Ditch Pickle

Come shoot come watch feb 18 and 19th
its going to be a barn burner 
go to northern shoots for info


----------



## hailwiz

60X I see you get it, I can afford to travel, pay the entry fee, and take time off to shoot as a pro but am not at that level yet, just a few x's away and when I get there I will. I shoot all the tournaments now and see the who what and where's and look at some guys shooting the money/pro class and have had higher scores in the trophy/flight class. There should be a work your way up format like the ASA does instead of just paying to be a pro. I feel I am paying my dues by attending and shooting the shoots and you do not have to be a pro to shoot next to one on day 1, the next day you shoot with like shooters which is the way it should be. Most real pro's are approachable and willing to answer your questions and give you pointers if you ask. I don't bother them for autographs because I really don't want them either, but i see knuckleheads that walk in the shooters only area behind the line while they are sitting between ends and ask for autographs. There are some pro's with their big heads and some wanna be's in the pro class that really have big heads...lol But like I said I am there to compete and have a good time with other archers and could care less about all the pro amateur stuff and who wears pro staff and who does not. I personally wear my sponsor stuff because I'm obligated to and for some pro to get mad because of the name "PRO" really makes me wonder what kind of pro he really is. I would be concentrating on my shooting versus what someone has on their shirt.


----------



## hailwiz

Hey Don seen you shoot before and you are one hell of a shot, I will stop by and say high in Vegas and KC if you are there. Shoot em in the middle!


----------



## 60x backstrap

Ditch Pickle said:


> Come shoot come watch feb 18 and 19th
> its going to be a barn burner
> go to northern shoots for info


I've already been watching that thread and giving it some thought, however like Don pointed out it's the same weekend as our state shoot here in Wi. But those are the kind of shoots that are gonna get attention IMO. Sorry If I seemed a bit edgy with last nights post, It came out during the butt whippin the Packers received. LOL Best Regards Bret C.


----------



## blueglide1

60x backstrap said:


> Don't mean to eavesdrop however I couldn't agree more! I'd weed out some of these so called pros with pro cards who simply paid their financial dues and not the ones that count,(experience)!! Drives me nuts when you scratch up money to take your whole family to a bigger shoot and even pay extra for a Pro-Am and beet your so called Pro. I understand we all have our good and bad days but some of the card carrying pros are in it only for the attention they get from the title. I haven't turned pro yet because I don't have a schedule that will allow it. Indoor is my thing and you bet I pay attention to what, why, and how the real pro's shoot but I'm not going to pay an outlandish entrance fee for a lesson. IMO deeper payouts draw guys like me who can compete but may not make the top 10. Not to mention I have two competing kids that donate their whole entrance fee to the pro class at the big shoots.


Brett did I forget to thank Ashley {2011 National Champion that earned a big silver bowl that I dont have } and Cole who is right behind her talent wise for their contributions to my winnings last year? I could have sworn I did.LOL


----------



## blueglide1

Then again those Gummie Bears got stuck in my wallet.LOL


----------



## 60x backstrap

Sorry I blew up, playoffs will do that to a guy! I already heard about it from Josh M. too. I'll behave. LOL


----------



## 60x backstrap

And yes Don, you and some of our other local pros are the real pros that I look up too.


----------



## hailwiz

Most tournaments use the entry money from the trophy devision to pay the top money in the championship/money divisions. The trophies for the trophy devisions are minimal to what they take in, if you pay further down in the money class then you will get more shooters plain and simple. If you look at the payouts from most tournaments it is very few points from 1st-15th and usually the same 15 pro's names are in there. At these big tourney's they don't pay down far so some of them skip tourneys that they do not have a chance to win money. $5000 will not cut it as a total pay out, you would need to start at like $10,000 down to $1000 each descending place and that does not include the female and senior divisions which obviously would be a lot less. You will have to come up with $20-25k in prize money to draw all the big names at one tournament and not on the same weekend as another big tournament. I think the all together theory will not work, you could even go invitational for best results if you ask me. Just think if you invited the top 20 shooters and had that money to pay out then they would show up. You would also have a money championship class for the rest of the money shooters. The reason most go is to compete but I still don't get why guys sign up for the pro class when they do not have a chance to win, it is a donation to them in my opinion. But this format would give them a better chance to win money when you take the big names out of the equation, they will just compare their scores to the big names anyway. Just a few thoughts for you to ponder!


----------



## field14

Hailwiz, you said:
"Most tournaments use the entry money from the trophy devision to pay the top money in the championship/money divisions". 

I don't think that "MOST" tournaments take entry fees from amateurs and give it to the MONEY POT....It hasn't been my experience over the years in them doing that! Thus I disagree with your assessment of this situation. I know for positively certain there are tournaments that do NOT use ANY of the amateur fees to give to the "Money" or "Pro" purse! 

Normally, and in my past experiences, in most cases, the "Money shooters" (or "PRO") pots are self-funded with 65% to 80% of the entry fees going to the money pot and the rest going to the host for Administrative fees, targets, advertising, etc. Then, the hosts will try to get outside "sponsorship" or "contributions" to help build the money pot further...and once again it ALL goes to the PRO POT, or the CHAMPIONSHIP (money) Purse. That is why the registration fees are so much higher for the Championship or Pro Division entries! So, the reverse of what you are saying is more likely...SOME of the fees from the PROS/ Championship shooters....goes to the AMATEURS to help pay for things the AMATEURS reap.

Now, I cannot say that some hosts don't take _some_ of the $$$ from some of the other MONEY divisions to give to Men's FS in order to build the MEN'S Freestyle purse up; that I know has gone on.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## hailwiz

I think you are misunderstanding me, and think that if you have ever put a tournament on then you would understand what I am talking about. Money is taken from all the entry fee money and used in the money class otherwise they would not have enough for payouts, specially in guaranteed money shoots. The trophy class money is not just used for trophies or they would be giant Trophies that you could not carry home. They use the so called 65-80% of the money you are talking about but it is the difference in non money registration and money registration. example: trophy class 50.00 entry fee and 100.00 money class they take the $50 difference and that is where the payout they are talking about comes from not the whole $100 entry fee. That is why the pay downs are so terrible lately like the first 1-6 places depending on the tournament, I talked to some of the tournament organizers and that is what they told me. This a business to them like any other or they would not be doing it. Take the ISAA in Iowa, how much do you think it cost to have that tourney there in the new convention center? I bet 5-7K maybe more. What about vegas? take an average and do the math on the participants and the payout money and you will see. I was inquiring because of the thought of holding a pro-am format type tournament and wanted to know how they dispersed their money. I know a lot of tournaments are different and they have different formulas of how they pay out and some probably do do it that way but there are more than one way to skin a cat....


----------



## Paradox

Hailwiz,

Field14 has run a couple tournaments before; maybe you're heard of the Presley's Midwest Open. 

Pro prize money and where it comes from depends upon the tourney. For NFAA tournaments (and no, the Vegas shoot is not an NFAA tournament), it's 100% payback of the "Pro purse". The pro purse money is the money fee over and above what the standard adult entry fee is; if amateurs pay $85 to shoot and the pros pay $225, then that extra $140 goes into the pot. For NFAA nationals, I believe the money stays with the division, no PFFS purse money goes to PMFS money. Additionally, part of the pro dues paid each year go to Sectionals and Nationals payouts, so the number varies from year to year.

As for shoots that are not NFAA shoots, it's up to the organizers to decide how to split prize money up, and how much of the entry fee goes to the archers. If they take money from other division to sweeten another divisions pot, it's up to them....(but not necessarily right and I don't think most do). As for the ISAA pro-am, they could've used sponsorship money to increase the Championship winnings.


----------



## field14

Oh, but you are way off base, with regard to my "tournament running" experience. Been doing that for nearly 40 years +, local, state (been involved in more than 8 states over the years), and NFAA Sectional Levels as tournament chairman; too many times to count, plus Money and Trophy leagues to boot.

And YES! Just like was posted above me, The ISAA (Iowa Pro-Am) gets "sponsorship monies" to help increase the Championship Purse, just like the Presley's Midwest Open tournament goes out and gets manufacturers, Local Vendors, and other sources to contribute to the Championship Purse. If we both (Presley's and Iowa) depended only upon registration fees from the Championship Registrants, things wouldn't be anywhere near as enticing.

I know for a fact that EVERY tournament I have been the chairman of....NONE of the money from the AMATEUR registration has gone to the "Money Pot" or the 'Pro"Purse. It has always been between 65% and 80% of the MONEY SHOOTERS' registration fees go directly to the money purse. Of late however I've seen tournaments going at, 60%, 65%, and 80% paybacks being common; 50-50 is rare, and in my opinion out of line and unfair to the Pro Shooters Purse.
So, GUARANTEED purses always come with strings attached...as in PARTICIPATION LEVELS. If the participation isn't there, then neither is the money; it doesn't grow on trees! 

For example let's say a host has set and advertised registration fees at $100 for the "Pro Purse at 80% pay-back." Amateur registration is $40. 
Then they go and GUARANTEE $5,000 first place to $Men's Freestyle with $100 registration fees. (Bad move, IMHO, but hey, its an example, ha)
Now lets say only 53 people total people sign up in _*all*_ the "Pro" or "Money" Divisions. 
You now have a TOTAL of $5,300 in registration fees, period for the Money Shooters. 
80% of that is only $4240. 
So now you are left with only $4240 for all the Divisions, but you "guaranteed" $5,000 to the 1st Place Men's Freestyle alone. You are now in deep doo-doo.

Now let's just say that only 40 Men's Freestylers sign up. The other 13 are Ladies, Seniors, and BHFS. 
$80 X 40 = $3,200 is there in the pot for Men's Freestyle...
Where do you get the other $1,800 to pay the 1st Place Winner, let alone the other 17 shooters? ...where does the rest come from?
You are now short for the other 13 people too, so you give them NOTHING? For those 13 people you have a total of $80 X 13 = $1040 and have to figure that payout based upon participation in those other 3 "classes". Not much there, and you sure can't take it back from them to give to the 17 men that there isn't money for.

Your alternatives? "Borrow from the amateurs" Say you have 100 amateurs at $40. that is $4,000. Good place to come up with it, or so you think. You need $1,800 of that for 1st Place Men's winner and have to figure out how to divide up $2,200 among 17 people in the Men's Freestyle and 13 more in the others? Those pickins are going to be slim, huh?
Problem is, now you have spent every dime of registration on the MONEY SHOOTERS...so how do you pay for: the targets, advertising, tournament essentials, brochures, scorecards, pencils, and yes, awards.? You are now broke and no doubt will dig into the treasury to foot the other bills of hosting the tournament.

Gotta think twice before guaranteeing anything up front without "strings attached"; those strings being "dependent upon X number MINIMUM of participants in XXX Division that you are "guaranteeing" 1st place for". If you don't have that number of participants, then it must be clear that the Purse will DROP accordingly.

Obviously that is probably why the thread was started...."How to get big name pros to come AND a Decent payout to get them there?
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Daniel Boone

Mike2787 said:


> First, it's going to take some guaranteed money. Depending on how many you want but if you want a lot of big name pros, you will need to pay $5000.00 for first and pay maybe 15-20 places. You will need to contact manufacturers and get a promise of contingency money. The most important thing is to have a well run, well organized tournament. Targets that don't shoot through. Start and end when the time is specified. A set of rules that are clear and straight forward. Most important is that every competitor that attends feels like they are appreciated for being there. Lancaster Archery's Classic is an example of a tournament that does this already.



Lancasters has proven it can be done and done well. Just put up enough money and pros will be there.
DB


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Lancasters has proven it can be done and done well. Just put up enough money and pros will be there.
> DB


Fine to Guarantee...if you can BACK IT UP WITH THE BUCKS!!! But...it is high risk if you don't attach "strings" to it.

Problem is, DB...Isn't Lancaster's the WORLD'S LARGEST DISTRIBUTOR of Archery Equipment?

Just WHERE is all this "Guaranteed Money" supposed to come from? Tell me, Please...we have enough problems coming up with a total purse of between $11,000-$13,000 (TOTAL PURSE) for our tournament! It is a TON of work every year to get this...and sometimes it goes unappreciated by "some" as a "meager payout".

The manufacturers will only go so far; they have budgets too...so if they give to Lancaster's, they give to Vegas, they give to NFAA Nationals, they give to the Redding Trail Shoot...and then don't forget IBO and ASA and all those events....just what is left for getting MORE indoor or outdoor events going at different locations? 
People want "guarantees"...but don't realize the monumental task of coming up with the money...It doesn't grow on trees. I don't see Rolex, Nike, Lexus, Cadillac, Adidas, etc as being too awfully interested in "giving" money to archery...unless archery has something to offer as a return on their investments.

It will have to come from LOCAL sponsors and 'outside sources' not involved directly in the archery business. But, who's willing to get out there and do that for a "Pro Event' in your hometown or local club/area??

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Daniel Boone

field14 said:


> Fine to Guarantee...if you can BACK IT UP WITH THE BUCKS!!! But...it is high risk if you don't attach "strings" to it.
> 
> Problem is, DB...Isn't Lancaster's the WORLD'S LARGEST DISTRIBUTOR of Archery Equipment?
> 
> Just WHERE is all this "Guaranteed Money" supposed to come from? Tell me, Please...we have enough problems coming up with a total purse of between $11,000-$13,000 (TOTAL PURSE) for our tournament! It is a TON of work every year to get this...and sometimes it goes unappreciated by "some" as a "meager payout".
> 
> The manufacturers will only go so far; they have budgets too...so if they give to Lancaster's, they give to Vegas, they give to NFAA Nationals, they give to the Redding Trail Shoot...and then don't forget IBO and ASA and all those events....just what is left for getting MORE indoor or outdoor events going at different locations?
> People want "guarantees"...but don't realize the monumental task of coming up with the money...It doesn't grow on trees. I don't see Rolex, Nike, Lexus, Cadillac, Adidas, etc as being too awfully interested in "giving" money to archery...unless archery has something to offer as a return on their investments.
> 
> It will have to come from LOCAL sponsors and 'outside sources' not involved directly in the archery business. But, who's willing to get out there and do that for a "Pro Event' in your hometown or local club/area??
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Beer and Viagra sponsors! Pros wont care where the money comes from. 
DB


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Beer and Viagra sponsors! Pros wont care where the money comes from.
> DB


Gotta "grow" it somehow, huh, Daniel? Don't forget Cialis...maybe we could get "Bob" to help get those types of contributors to increase the size of the pot? (Pun intended).:angel::59::clap::chicken01::set1_draught2::jaw:


----------



## rn3

field14 said:


> Gotta "grow" it somehow, huh, Daniel? Don't forget Cialis...maybe we could get "Bob" to help get those types of contributors to increase the size of the pot? (Pun intended).:angel::59::clap::chicken01::set1_draught2::jaw:


Now that would be huge :wink:


----------



## kward598

I was wondering about the cost of putting on the shoot, targets, bails, cost of the building plus utilities, scoreing system etc? I assume all volunteers prepare the venue? 
Field, is this covered in the 20%?


----------



## field14

kward said:


> I was wondering about the cost of putting on the shoot, targets, bails, cost of the building plus utilities, scoreing system etc? I assume all volunteers prepare the venue?
> Field, is this covered in the 20%?


Kward,
Times have changed. While that "20%" was, in the past, a rule of thumb for pay-backs and worked well, I think that the increased costs of "everything" has gone way up; thus you see many tournaments running the % pay-back out of the "Pro" (Championship) registration fees being changed down into the 55%-75% range, depending upon the venue, or host club. As far as "volunteers" that likely varies from venue to venue, but yes, most of the time there are a lot of volunteers...BUT...some have paid out quite a bit of money to computerize their scoring system and calculations, while others have found someone good at Excel to do this.
If the registration is done on-line, then money has been spent to get that going...and YES...there ARE changes that have to be made every year in order to keep up with technology...so this cost can be quite high as well.

Let's take a look at things: 
EXAMPLE ONLY: Pro(Championship) registration fee of $80. IF an 80% pay-back to the purse is made of that $80, then the Pros (Championship) shooters purse contribution is $64, correct? Which leaves $16 for "admin fees" to run the tournament. The registration fees for the "amateurs" (trophy shooters) is say $30. Already, technically speaking the pros are shooting the SAME BALES, using the SAME target faces (only usually more faces per shooter), using the SAME score-cards, and using the same amount of space on the shooting line, etc...and thus shooting the "admin. part" of the tournament for just barely over 1/2 price, correct? Pretty large discount, isn't it?
If we figure this at 65% payback, they are contributing only $52 to the Championship Purse, and $28 towards "admin". Thus who is supporting who in this? Amateurs are paying $30 registration...and PROS (Championship are paying $28 admin fees?...Get my drift?
We hear that Amateur money is used to "pay the pros"? NOT really, BUT....a $2 discount to the Pros vs. a $16 "discount" to the pros (championship) is a bit overboard, isn't it? Thus, looking at it from this angle, the amateurs would think that they are supporting the pros with the amateurs' registration fees, even though that is NOT really happening directly.

It is a very, very fine line, and I honestly cannot tell you, nor will I even try, the exacting admin costs...targets, bales' wear and tear, cost of the building plus utilities, scoring system, "volunteers" status...cuz that varies so much from location to location it is super hard to fathom!
I do know that if a tournament decides to advertise in the major archery magazines...a full or half-page ad does NOT come cheap, and has to be paid for long before the tournament date (obviously). Check your magazines and they normally tell you the cost of a 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full page ad...in black and white and in color for their particular magazine.

That also really confuses things with regard to "setting a purse", because in order to get things advertised for say a December tournament...you need to have the flyer and advertising to said publishers by mid-JUNE at the latest. Another reason why "guaranteeing" a purse in JUNE is exceedingly risky...when you won't know the final "input" to the purse until the day of the event!
See, the money doesn't grow on trees...and a TON of advance planning and tweaking is needed. This stuff doesn't come at the drop of a hat.


----------



## hailwiz

There ya go TNT1 I think all the basis are covered on tournament payouts, who should be pro and who should not be a pro, what your shirt should say according to your own belief's. You have some great info here as I have learned some new things myself. The NFAA is not the only game in town and you do not need them to have a successful tournament, money is what brings the shooters, bottom line. if anyone tells you different then they are for an organization only that they belong to. Hope your tournament wishes come true and I will show up to promote the sport of archery.


----------



## hailwiz

Field14 here is an idea, make a new pro only (card carrying pro) class that is the sponsorship money + entry fee class, keep the championship money class for the (top amateurs). Example: $8000 sponsorship money + $225 entry fee with 60-80% payback of the $225. Championship money class is $225 with the 60-80% payback of the $225.


----------



## field14

You basically mean, "Semi-Pro"...for the SAME entry fee as the "card-carrying" Pros? You wanna "revolt"?

First off, my philosophy doesn't go along with "semi-pro" when it comes to archery, but, that being said, the only way that could work would be by having a MUCH LOWER entry fee for the "Championship" or "semi-pro" class that doesn't shoot for the contributed purse monies. Of course, you then have administration of TWO money pots and 10 "classess" instead of ONE money purse and 5 "classes. To put them ALL regardless of style or age or gender into ONE is NOT going to work. Those in the Limited "class" won't have a chance of placing "in the money" and only a very few of the other 3 "Classes" do either.
People figure that if they are going to ante up that kind of entry fee, then it is for the "big bucks". They are NOT going to go along with paying the same entry fee as the 'big boys' and get only 60-80% return while the others paying the same fee get the cake and eat it too.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Fine to Guarantee...if you can BACK IT UP WITH THE BUCKS!!! But...it is high risk if you don't attach "strings" to it.
> 
> Problem is, DB...Isn't Lancaster's the WORLD'S LARGEST DISTRIBUTOR of Archery Equipment?
> 
> Just WHERE is all this "Guaranteed Money" supposed to come from? Tell me, Please...we have enough problems coming up with a total purse of between $11,000-$13,000 (TOTAL PURSE) for our tournament! It is a TON of work every year to get this...and sometimes it goes unappreciated by "some" as a "meager payout".
> 
> The manufacturers will only go so far; they have budgets too...so if they give to Lancaster's, they give to Vegas, they give to NFAA Nationals, they give to the Redding Trail Shoot...and then don't forget IBO and ASA and all those events....just what is left for getting MORE indoor or outdoor events going at different locations?
> People want "guarantees"...but don't realize the monumental task of coming up with the money...It doesn't grow on trees. I don't see Rolex, Nike, Lexus, Cadillac, Adidas, etc as being too awfully interested in "giving" money to archery...unless archery has something to offer as a return on their investments.
> 
> It will have to come from LOCAL sponsors and 'outside sources' not involved directly in the archery business. But, who's willing to get out there and do that for a "Pro Event' in your hometown or local club/area??
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Were you guys able to get local money for your shoot Tom?....stuff you could use for the guarantee etc?


----------



## field14

Absolutely! BUT...your committee has to get out and pound the bricks and ASK for it, and provide information and incentives that those supporters will get some "bang" for the buck. It is not hard to do, but it takes time, effort, perseverance, and coordination with those locals.
If you don't ask, you won't receive. Of course, there are some that simply say that the prefer not to contribute, and that is fine; but for the most part, most all will contribute something. Even if it is only $50, that still adds up quickly! That is $50 more that you now have that wouldn't be there had you not tried, isn't it?
Tho LOCAL support, IMHO, is very, very important and LOCAL involvement puts a sense of pride into the community and helps support for competitive archery on a local level...You can see where I'm going with this, it is obvious.
So many organizers and archers have it in their heads that only archery related vendors, manufacturers, etc should be contributing to a money purse or archery event? Say WHAT? By "assuming" this, there are so many avenues left untouched and covered up because of the "head in the sand" syndrome.
Hey, if they don't contribute MONEY or "merchandise to sell and put the proceeds into the purse"...many will contribute DOOR PRIZES that can be quite valuable....and with those door prizes EVERYONE registered to compete in the tournament....has the same % chance of winning one of those! Some of the door prizes are worth upwards of $500!
There is MORE to a competitive archery event than the CHAMPIONSHIP PURSE...that is a small part of it, nice to have, but NOT the engine that drives everything else, know what I mean?
Little support and little participation from the "joes"...and the PROS have nowhere to shoot a competition.
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Ditch Pickle

You know you guys have a lot to say but are you coming to the shoot 
to see the best possible put together tournament there is?


----------



## J Whittington

ROSKO P said:


> Why would the tournament have to be NFAA sanctioned?


Same ? why.


----------



## J Whittington

FV Chuck said:


> It's the only Org that requires a "Pro Card"... everyone else just has a higher entry fee to be a Pro.


What does having a pro card have to do with it. No personnel offense intended, but IMHO the NFAA is the most screwed up archery org in existence. Why does archery need them? Lancaster event is a perfect example.


----------



## Ditch Pickle

With out you shooters we have nothing please come and shoot or see a great shoot
i will make it one of the best you have gone to
thank you bob christle


----------



## FV Chuck

J Whittington said:


> What does having a pro card have to do with it. No personnel offense intended, but IMHO the NFAA is the most screwed up archery org in existence. Why does archery need them? Lancaster event is a perfect example.



Personal Offense Taken... apologizing for being rude and disrespectful in advance does not give you a free pass.

Chuck Cooley
NFAA Pro Chair


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> Were you guys able to get local money for your shoot Tom?...._stuff you could use for the guarantee etc?_


We use ALL contributed MONEY for the contributed portion of the Championship Purse PLUS the part of the registration fee that belongs to the Championship Shooter's style of shooting. That is where that contributed money goes, and nowhere else, period.
However, the amount of the CONTRIBUTED PURSE is strictly based upon the percentage participation of each and EVERY Championship class...$M-FS, $F-FS, $SR-M-FS, $M-BH-FS, $M-BH-FS, $MS-M-FS. 
If there would be more in the $SR-M-FS than there are in the $M-FS Class, then the $SR-M-FS would get MORE of the Contributed monies (based upon their % participation as a group) than the $M-FS. We will NOT give a lion's share to one class versus another and take from the others in order to do it.
In addition, ALL of the registrants' part of their registration fees STAY with whatever Championship Style they register in...that belongs to that style and no other.
We make sure that every Championship Style gets their fair share (by % participation) of that contributed part of the purse. Keeps things fair and equitable.
If a particular Style wants a bigger piece of the pie...then....bring more shooters in your style with you! If there are 100 total Championship Shooters in the event, and your style only has 40 of them, then ALL YOU GET is 40% of the Contributed Monies, plus the part of registration fees paid for YOUR 40 people in that style.
IMHO, guaranteed purses are HIGH RISK items...especially when the flyers etc have to be out months ahead of time and you don't have any GUARANTEES from the registrants that THEY WILL SHOW....The "guarantees" come from both sides, IMHO. However when it comes to purses...you gotta have the money in the bank before you go out and spend it before it is there.
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## CHPro

Going out on a limb here Tom, and don't want misinterpret what Chuck was asking, but I don't believe that was the question he was asking. Possibly asking more along the lines of, "were you guys able to secure cash sponsorship monies from local businesses?". And if so, "how". Possibly brainstorming for ideas on how the NFAA Pro Division could similarly try to find additional non-archery manufacturer funds to add to the shooting purses rather than hitting up the same manufacturers year after year. But maybe I didn't understand Chuck's question? 

>>-------->


----------



## field14

CHPro said:


> Going out on a limb here Tom, and don't want misinterpret what Chuck was asking, but I don't believe that was the question he was asking. Possibly asking more along the lines of, "were you guys able to secure cash sponsorship monies from local businesses?". And if so, "how". Possibly brainstorming for ideas on how the NFAA Pro Division could similarly try to find additional non-archery manufacturer funds to add to the shooting purses rather than hitting up the same manufacturers year after year. But maybe I didn't understand Chuck's question?
> 
> >>-------->


I see your point, Jeff, and thanks for the alternative view.

I answered, but I guess I wasn't clear:
YES! We ARE able to secure cash sponsorship monies from local businesses, and quite a bit of it, too.
How? We got out and asked them directly. This isn't anything new, been doing it for many years from both the archery and the racquetball tournament aspects. Our tournament committee has people whose responsibility it is to go to local vendors....car dealerships, restaurants, banks, real estate, doctors, insurance agents, hardware stores, Union Locals, service organizations, car repair shops, car body shops, real estate brokers, you name it, and there are possibilities we miss, too. We keep the number of people doing this small, so that they don't trip over one another. We also have persons responsible for contacting archery related vendors and manufacturers as well. We ask any "sponsored" shooters on our committee to also contact their sponsors to see if that will help.
We have to start early, in some cases as early as April. For many of the locals, we get a 'verbal commitment' early on, but many will wait until very late to confirm this when we re-contact them. Some do so at the last possible moment. They have budgets too, and most like to hang onto their money as long as possible. This is one main reason why it is so hard and risky to "GUARANTEE" any purse payments for 1st place in any of the Championship Styles.
Of course, you must also give those sponsors some 'bang' for their buck as well, in the way of advertising, banners, and recognition in as many means possible. The community, if approached correctly will be willing to help out and take pride in supporting a major archery (or many other types) of events. Some will be unable to, but most are willing, given options. Sometimes they will only give merchandise for Door Prizes, which is fine. Sometimes they will give merchandise to sell and then the proceeds ALL go to the Championship Purse.
I hope this clarifies your re-worded questions?


----------



## Ditch Pickle

See northern shoots to reg for mid mn open 
hope to see ya


----------



## FV Chuck

CHPro said:


> Going out on a limb here Tom, and don't want misinterpret what Chuck was asking, but I don't believe that was the question he was asking. Possibly asking more along the lines of, "were you guys able to secure cash sponsorship monies from local businesses?". And if so, "how". Possibly brainstorming for ideas on how the NFAA Pro Division could similarly try to find additional non-archery manufacturer funds to add to the shooting purses rather than hitting up the same manufacturers year after year. But maybe I didn't understand Chuck's question?
> 
> >>-------->


You were right

Thanks Jeff ...


----------



## CHPro

Thanks for the additional information Tom. One additional question if you don't mind, in your experience with the fundraising have there been any particular types of industries/businesses that tend to stand out in terms of their willingness to contribute? Thanks.

>>--------->


----------



## field14

CHPro said:


> Thanks for the additional information Tom. One additional question if you don't mind, in your experience with the fundraising have there been any particular types of industries/businesses that tend to stand out in terms of their willingness to contribute? Thanks.
> 
> >>--------->


You just have to try. Our committee people contact them early in the year and give them a simple letter explaining the tournament and other details concerning contributions, explain about the other parts and how their contributions will be utilized. Most always they ask us if we can wait until later in the year when it is closer to tournament time, which naturally we comply with.
If they are going to contribute a larger amount, from $250 up, then we ask them for a digital copy of their logo or if they already have a banner so that when the time comes, we can get their banner put up for them.

Once again, we don't know for sure the final tally of the contributed part of the purse until Sunday morning of the event, since some come in very, very late. Basically, if we don't have it, we don't risk spending it in the way of any guarantees.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Ditch Pickle

Big news i will personally guarantee the payout of $2500 for top dog, even if the 60 shooting positions are not filled. Please help spread the word to promote the shoot. 
Sincerely,
your shooting buddy bob christle


----------



## tnt1

Well here we go than: I listened, I took some of your advice and I took some of my own and Here it is :: A tournament of the best for the best with a good payout. GUARANTEED $2500.00 TO TOP, Only 60 Shooters, Open class, $100.00 entry, PROS OR JOES doesn't matter. See Northern Shoots For Flyer. So for all who responded I hope to see you there !!!!!!! and again thanks to all that responded and SIGN UP NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ditch Pickle

Ttt


----------



## Ditch Pickle

ttt


----------



## Ditch Pickle

there is still time to reg but the line times are filling fast
call 612 221 5220 dont procrastinate there is going to be
some of the best pros and joes in the world this is going
to be the bigest barn burner shoot out the state of mn 
has ever seen and that is no doubt
thank you see ya there bob christle


----------



## possum trapper

Ditch Pickle said:


> there is still time to reg but the line times are filling fast
> call 612 221 5220 dont procrastinate there is going to be
> some of the best pros and joes in the world this is going
> to be the bigest barn burner shoot out the state of mn
> has ever seen and that is no doubt
> thank you see ya there bob christle


can we see a list of reg archers?


----------



## Ditch Pickle

hello lynn there is a list of reg shooters but its to hard to tell till all the money comes in for sure
hope to here from you or see ya there also reg starts at 630 am sat morning there is approx 30 shooters and
can only have 60 shooter max 
see ya there bob


----------



## blueglide1

Lynn,I know that myself Don Ward,Duane Price,Marc Gruber,Issac Nelson,possibly Lee Gibbs if he gets better.At least thats what I got from Wis.going.


----------



## Ditch Pickle

ttt


----------



## Tedford23

Stihlpro said:


> There is much more to being a PROfessional Archer than just making a living at it. Thats what people don't understand. There is a lot of BTS work involved and it has too be your life, your passion your motivation....Not just a hobby and walking around with your hand out asking for free SH**.


True!


----------

