# Problem with JOAD coach



## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

Let's start with the good: Our JOAD instructor is a wonderful guy and level 3 Certified. He gives his heart and soul to the program, makes his backyard range available to anyone who locks the gate behind them, throws parties and has helped hundreds of youngsters get into archery over several decades. He works in the local pro shop and archery is his primary source of income. He's also a good shot.

Unfortunately he isn't much of a coach. Weekly JOAD sessions are shooting and/or scoring sessions with instruction limited to comments like "don't rush" or "you're punching" as he walks back and forth behind the line. He even told a girl it was ok to cheat and roll her wrist when the hinge didn't fire. It's very rare for any of the kids to get individual attention and $50/hour private sessions aren't much better. He'll use his phone to take video and point out flaws but not much beyond what I could do.

We have at least 4 kids who have yellow pins and the only help they're getting to make Bronze is the encouragement to practice during the week. I'll allow that practice is the single most important part but a little coaching would help too. I can't ask him to change his methods without looking and feeling like a jerk.

What can I do? I'm not aware of any private coaches in the area that we can use to supplement the current system. Are there coaches who work by skype or other remote system? Or even look at video and stills? I'm definitely not the only parent who feels this way.

Thank you.
BTW - my profile location is *very* general so as to not offend or insult anyone involved. Pretend it says USA rather than Syracuse


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The hinge release is essentially a device with a very big trigger. I wouldn't call "rolling the wrist" cheating. It could be the most efficient way to use that damned piece of crap.

Then, there are real back tension releases.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> The hinge release is essentially a device with a very big trigger. I wouldn't call "rolling the wrist" cheating. It could be the most efficient way to use that damned piece of crap.
> 
> Then, there are real back tension releases.


THen I used the wrong term. It is a "real" back tension release.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

What outcome do you want? Fromb your description, the coach has reached the limit of his ability. Do you hope to A) improve the coach, or B) get a better coach to assist and improve the quality of the program?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh. Ok. That coach sucks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I was going to ask if you were a student, or a parent.

First off, your story is nothing many of us haven't heard or experienced ourselves. As a long-time JOAD coach, an athlete and a parent of JOAD archers, I feel ya.

Now, having said that, rather than focusing on what your JOAD coach doesn't know (because none of us know everything), you need to be looking for the next step for your child. Assuming first of all that your child is becoming frustrated, and not just you. Because if your child is happy and it's just you that is frustrated with the coach, that's not a good recipe in my experience. 

But assuming your child is genuinely frustrated, and ready for some better instruction, then it's time for you both to start looking for - not a "new" or "different" coach, but what I would call a "supplemental" coach. Please hear what I'm saying here... I will try to explain myself in great detail because this is important. Not just to you, but to a LOT of parents in your situation (and there are many).

You and your child have benefited greatly from the generosity of this coach you have now. IMO, we all have a responsibility to repay the help we are given freely, and this is where higher level archers and high-performing parents can help not just their own kids, but a whole club. You have two choices right now. Leave that coach, go find another one and take your knowledge with you, or start working with another more advanced coach, remain involved in your local club, and bring the information you gather back to your club and your coach. One is a self-serving choice, and the other is a community service choice, but it's not easy.

Best case scenario is to talk to that coach one-on-one, suggest to them that you are interested in taking your child to work with a high-level coach, and ask them if they would like to come with you. Find a way to take that coach with you. Pay for their trip if you have to, because surely you've received an equal amount (or more) of value in their time already.

Not sure if this is compound or recurve, but find a well-known and well-qualified coach and set up a trip to visit them, along with your local JOAD coach. Then both of you will come back to the club better prepared to bring more value to the overall club.

In 2002, I was a JOAD parent, just like you, that wanted to help my kids learn the sport. In 2003 I picked up a target bow and started working through the coaching certifications (L1 and L2) and then sought out the advice and instruction of high level coaches like Larry Skinner. Through all this, I worked as closely as I could with the JOAD program leaders where my kids first started. Eventually, when they had to close their shop and moved, I took over the JOAD program as the head coach, and learned that I enjoyed helping other people's kids just as much as I did my own. After that, the rest (as they say) is history and I've been coaching JOAD programs for over 10 years, in 2 states and have even coached internationally. 

I'm not saying this should be every parent's goal, but it should be every parent's goal to see their JOAD program succeed. Taking a child out of the program and going off to find better information without bringing any of it back does not support the home club, but I see this all the time. Working with the coach to seek out new sources of information and then share those with all the members and coaches is one way to support the club that has supported your child to this point.

Something else to think about is this... More than once I've seen a parent pull a child out of a JOAD program, thinking they were doing the "right thing" for their child. They headed off to a new coach, often one that doesn't have a JOAD program, and usually the results are promising for the first six months to a year. Then, all of the sudden, the kid loses interest in the sport and within 18 months, they don't even shoot anymore. Why? Because for some kids, that JOAD program was their motivation and when they left it and went off to a new coach, they lost the social interaction and feeling if participation. If the parent and student didn't leave on good terms (which is hard to do when you essentially tell a coach "we've outgrown you so now we're leaving") then that feeling of awkwardness never goes away. It interferes with every interaction the parent and student have with that coach and members of that JOAD club in the future. It's impossible to avoid in such a small sport.

So again, think about creating value in the club rather than just moving on. It's not easy. It will take some of your time and money, but in the long run, it probably is the best thing for your child, and the club as a whole.

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Good post John. I think there are inherent limitations to what a coach can do in a group setting. A student working with a private coach is welcomed and encouraged in our program. We then ask what they are working on and strive to reinforce what the private coach is teaching. We learn, the student learns and we actively try to improve the program. Taking a busy JOAD coach to task is not your best option. Collaborative relationships with the archery community to make everyone better is ideal.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have so much to say about this topic, but I will try to restrain myself... LOL.

Another thought I had on this topic is that it's a parent's job to teach their kid how to be a good member of society and how to contribute to the lives of others around them. What message do we send when we just leave a group that has supported us, to go on and search for a better result for ourselves? What does that teach the child? What does that say to the other kids and parents in the club?

Isn't it a better lesson to see their parent work with the coach, to go out and bring back new resources to help not only the child, but the whole club? That to me is a lesson that every kid needs. And to see their parents do this, is very powerful indeed. The children I've known of parents who do this have gone on to become very productive, engaged and well adjusted adults. The children I've known whose parents have chosen to cut and run, well, the message they got from their parent's actions is that their needs trump the needs of everyone else in their group and they have no responsibility to anyone but themselves. That sounds harsh, but at a fundamental level, that's the take-home. And frankly I don't expect to see those kids in the sport long-term.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

As a JOAD coach, I know I could spend an entire session with one student who may be struggling. However there are many other kids who are looking for guidance as well. Often times as a coach the best instruction is to say nothing if an archer is performing well. Saying something for the sake of saying something can be counterproductive. If your student is at the Bronze Olympian level, he is doing something very well. Congratulations to both the coach and archer. If your coach is the sole coach in the program, become a coach and ease the load. I have to admit there have been days where I'm not at my best and another coach will address issues much better than i. Dig in and help make things better.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

great dialog and advice from John


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone!

Limbwalker, you made a lot of great points. (I'm the father of a young teen girl) I should have been clearer in my initial post. Under no circumstances are we going to leave nor seek to replace the coach. He is a fine instructor and mentor, especially for the first 1-2 years. We're looking for a supplement, not a replacement. There is a social aspect to JOAD that is great fun and very valuable to my daughter. The parents are cool too.

How can I get the benefit of supplemental coaching if we don't have anyone local? We could drive a few hours once a month but as my family has non-archery interests we couldn't commit to weekly journeys. Is there such a thing as distance learning? We met a non-JOAD kid at a local range who said he did it with some woman but I wasn't smart enough to get his or her name. His Vegas 300 personal best was 299 so he must have been learning something!

I'd love to get the training myself but my daughter deals with positive criticism from teachers better than from dear ol' dad. I also need an expert to put together a personalized training program for her. It isn't working for mom and me to ask if she shot today or wants to hit the gym.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great points. 

I told a group of parents at a recent USArchery camp that contrary to popular belief, I actually LOVE helicopter parents. But the helicopters should be bringing SUPPLIES, not DIRECTION. The coach flies the chopper loaded with direction, and the parent flies the chopper loaded with supplies. And the archer flies the one loaded with time and effort. That's how all this works best. But yea, helicopter parents who bring supplies are the best parents I have.

If you can take your own coach with you, you might not even need to travel more than once. It just depends on who you go see. But a full day or a weekend with a top coach can easily give your child and your child's coach, years worth of information to work through.

The better coaches will be available to follow up with later on too, or revisit months down the road. I wouldn't think you would need to see them all that often, so long as your child and your child's JOAD coach have a good understanding of what she is working on.

As for asking your kid "did you shoot today?" I can write another chapter of a book on that one. 

The top archers I've had usually ask their parents to take them to shoot. One of the quickest ways to drive a kid out of our sport is to continually remind them to practice. If I had done that with my daughter, I guarantee you she would have dropped archery in favor of swimming or band or other things, many years ago. The kid has to set the pace. Sometimes that pace drives the parents batty and causes the kid to miss opportunities. But eventually they will learn that if they want the rewards, they have to put in the time. At the end of the day, they should look forward to shooting. If not, then they need to be doing the things they enjoy even if those things aren't archery.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

This is such a valuable thread. Kudos to John and Gabe for their thoughts and insight here.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

FlyingFishes said:


> I'd love to get the training myself but my daughter deals with positive criticism from teachers better than from dear ol' dad. I also need an expert to put together a personalized training program for her. It isn't working for mom and me to ask if she shot today or wants to hit the gym.


I would still encourage you to become a coach. That being said, the best thing to do with your daughter if/when you become a coach or instructor is to draw the line that says you are her dad, not her coach. Meaning, when you're at JOAD practice, to her you'll always just be dad (not coach), but to everyone else you'll be coach. If you're taking some of the load off the other coach, he'll have more time to spend with each archer he works with rather than having to spend time with all of them in a single session.

I run into the same problem your daughter's coach is having. Not enough help on the line to be able to spend some good one on one time with any one archer. If you can step up and help ease the load, the whole situation will get better!

As far as the exercise goes, talk to the PE coach at her school and see if you can get some help there. One caveat, don't try to find something or engineer something that is archery specific. Shoot for a total body fitness regimen. That will help her keep some balance in muscle groups. Archery being a bit of a one-sided task and all...


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

My helicopter is always loaded with bottles of water and the occasional box of freshly baked cookies!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

FlyingFishes said:


> My helicopter is always loaded with bottles of water and the occasional box of freshly baked cookies!


I'm very interested in that box of cookies. Chocolate chip perhaps?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

How many students does he have per JOAD class?
How long have the average kid been shooting?
Have you talked to other parents about your concerns?
Are there any other coaches during the class or just him? If just him have you considered coaching?

Oh, and there are several firing engines that can be used to fire a release....wrist rotation is one.


On line coaching, yes there are a few...just do some internet searching and you'll find a few. 

Go to the USA archery site, there is a place you can search for USA certified coaches in your area.
or
you could post a thread here looking for coaches in your area. Maybe there is a well seasoned shooter that can help...not all coaches have to be certified in order to help.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> I'm very interested in that box of cookies. Chocolate chip perhaps?


Dear Wife is a master baker. It's why many people put up with me ;-)


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

As the parent of an 8-year who is currently pretty excited about archery, I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks everyone who contributed, especially John.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

FlyingFishes said:


> Dear Wife is a master baker.


You're a very fortunate man.


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## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

Did you say $50/hour private sessions? That seems rather high.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

jakeeib said:


> Did you say $50/hour private sessions? That seems rather high.


High? What do you pay your auto mechanic, or plumber, per hour? Heck, what do you pay the neighbor kid to mow your grass????


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

$50 is fine for a good lesson but these don't qualify.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> You're a very fortunate man.


you know of what you speak.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

midwayarcherywi said:


> High? What do you pay your auto mechanic, or plumber, per hour? Heck, what do you pay the neighbor kid to mow your grass????


Exactly..

In SF

Auto mechanic $125+ -- At the dealership $200+
Plumber $100+/hr -- If it's an emergency $250+/hr -- If its an emergency on a weekend or holiday, upwards of $300+
AT&T house call $50.00 each 15 minutes.
Comcast service call $75.00 per 15 minutes.

Mow the lawn, 25.00? for many it's not by the hour but flat rate. but often only takes the neighborhood kid 15-20 minutes so $75-$100/hr?

Lake Tahoe Ski Instructor (pay the resort) for a private lesson.. $140/hr Plus lift tickets at $75-$120+ per day.

Hmm 50.00 sounds like a bargain!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mulcade said:


> I would still encourage you to become a coach. That being said, the best thing to do with your daughter if/when you become a coach or instructor is to draw the line that says you are her dad, not her coach. Meaning, when you're at JOAD practice, to her you'll always just be dad (not coach), but to everyone else you'll be coach. If you're taking some of the load off the other coach, he'll have more time to spend with each archer he works with rather than having to spend time with all of them in a single session.
> 
> I run into the same problem your daughter's coach is having. Not enough help on the line to be able to spend some good one on one time with any one archer. If you can step up and help ease the load, the whole situation will get better!
> 
> As far as the exercise goes, talk to the PE coach at her school and see if you can get some help there. One caveat, don't try to find something or engineer something that is archery specific. Shoot for a total body fitness regimen. That will help her keep some balance in muscle groups. Archery being a bit of a one-sided task and all...


I encourage every single one of my JOAD parents to become archers, if they are not already. USArchery runs the Adult Achievement program alongside the JOAD program (or can if a club wishes to) and it's SO VERY GOOD for parents AND their kids! It teaches the parents a lot about what's going on, how to prepare, what to say, what NOT to say, etc. and gets them out from behind their kids so the kids can just be kids. It also gives families something to talk about - a rare thing these days.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> Exactly..
> 
> In SF
> 
> ...


Okay, let's not use SF pricing for comparison's sake. LOL! Holy cow those prices!

A few weekends ago, I gave a half-day of instruction to an older gentleman who shot traditional 3-D. We ended up going just 3 hours instead of 4 because he just didn't have the stamina built up to keep shooting. I charge adults $50/hour, typically, unless they are volunteering at our club or making a donation to our club. He told me that $150 for the three hours of instruction he received was "dirt cheap" (his words) compared to other things he pays for. Made me feel good that he felt he was getting a lot of value for his money. He has long been retired and is very thrifty because of it. 

I didn't used to charge at all, or only accepted donations to our club, when we needed start-up money. But then it dawned on me one day, if I go see a PGA golf pro for a lesson (something I need to do more often) I'm going to pay at least $50/hour for their time. And frankly, I know more about archery than most PGA pros know about golf, so I don't feel one bit bad anymore about my fee anymore.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

"Weekly JOAD sessions are shooting and/or scoring sessions with instruction limited to comments like "don't rush" or "you're punching" as he walks back and forth behind the line....He'll use his phone to take video and point out flaws..."

Rushing or punching the shoot is probably the top 2 causes of poor shots. The fact he takes videos and then point out the flaws, sounds like he is a great teacher and doing a fine job.

Recommend stepping back, taking it easy, and allow the qualified teacher to teach the group.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Sorry to derail the OP, but we donate our time to the JOAD program and it may be a mistake. The shops which charge for range time and instruction for JOAD get more committed shooters. Why? Because the family is financially committed. At our club, we do have some very committed families and shooters, but also some who drop in from time to time. Those kids need more time when they show up as their form is not ingrained, or even developed. This is at the expense of the committed shooters who get less attention than they should receive. It becomes a triage situation and it shouldn't be that way at all. As the program leader and coach it is part of my responsibility to allocate scarce resources (coaching). We continue to tweak what we do to foster committed shooters and encourage those who are not at that place in the sport. 

Anyway. I also charge adults for private lessons and I limit who I choose to teach. Between JOAD, Adult Achievement, State Association responsibilities, this sport is close to consuming every bit of my time. Oh and I really value my time behind the bow and competing as well. I consider $50 hr to be very reasonable and have no qualms about charging that fee.


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## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

Well I believe $50 an hour is high, but as a coach he can charge whatever people are willing to pay. 
I also think the rate should be tied to the qualifications and quality of coaching received. A lesson from a local level 3 coach and a lesson from a coach that was an Olympian is 2 different things.
What I pay the neighbor kid to cut my grass and what I pay a landscaping professional are two different things.


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## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

Back to the OP...I agree with everything limbsaver has said, find a more advanced coach to visit and work with as possible, but absolutely stay heavily involved in the JOAD club. A great club can also recruit better coaches.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> A lesson from a local level 3 coach and a lesson from a coach that was an Olympian is 2 different things.


Yea, the local L3 usually charges more.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, the local L3 usually charges more.


Ha! You might be the cheapest Olympian giving lessons!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Sorry to derail the OP, but we donate our time to the JOAD program and it may be a mistake. The shops which charge for range time and instruction for JOAD get more committed shooters. Why? Because the family is financially committed


There is some truth to this. High performing archers are usually those who belong to financially committed families. It's just how it is in our sport. It's an expensive sport when you start traveling to attend events and if you have ANY dreams of making any kind of team or training program. 

My daughter just turned 15 and by all rights should be in the JDT. Why isn't she? Time and money. We don't have enough of either. I won't spend precious dollars on her archery training that she will need for college, and that's just a fact. I've been to the "mountaintop" of this sport and know what it's like to look back at all those awards, events, honors and experiences. And knowing what I know now, I seriously doubt I would even spend $30K total on the whole experience. Others would - gladly - but not me. And yet I see families spend $15K/year on one child's archery and participation in training programs with no guarantee for any kind of payoff. All I can think is they must have far more disposable income than we do. Good for them, but many of those families need to be shooting locally, saving up for one trip to Nationals a year, and saving the rest for their kid's education and maybe a downpayment on their first home. Just sayin'


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Ha! You might be the cheapest Olympian giving lessons!


I don't think there is any "might" to it. 

What can I say, I'm a sucker for teaching archery. And, I could have never have afforded lessons when I was younger, so I don't want to punish people for simply not being rich. Everyone deserves to learn this wonderful sport IMO, regardless of their ability to pay.

I will admit I've toyed in my head with a formula for fees that would be linked to an individual's annual household income.  Haven't put it into practice yet though. Would it be rude if when someone asked what my hourly fee was, I responded with "one tenth of one percent of your annual household income?" LOL. 

In that case, a kid from a family whose household income was $100K would pay $100/hr. while a kid from a family with a $40K household income would pay just $40/hr. 

Man, the more I think about that, the more sense it makes. :darkbeer:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Interesting, In my program I'm really upfront with the students, I explain you will get my instruction for the duration of the session about 15 weeks with one class a week. After that I give them additional resources to explore. So basically what I'm saying is I'll give you the basics and the introduction but it'll be up to you to go find the more advanced coaching and to further your archery career beyond that 15 weeks. I even give out links and email addresses of the more advanced coaches in the area. I've setup my program this way because I get on average over 120 requests for classes a year and I got tired of trying to pick who was worthy. It also divorces me from the criticism that the OP had for their coach. 
Right or wrong that's how I approach it.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

$50/lesson is cheap if it's quality instruction. 

Auto Mechanic labor rates across the country ... www.mechaniconduty.com/mapgraphic_email.pdf

Baseball lesson rates for kids .... http://community.babycenter.com/post/a9388105/private_baseball_lessons_for_10_years_old

1965 .... cost of milk $.95/gallon; postage stamp was a nickel. 2015 ... cost of milk $3.75/gallon, postage stamps 49cents ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> $50/lesson is cheap if it's quality instruction.
> 
> Auto Mechanic labor rates across the country ... www.mechaniconduty.com/mapgraphic_email.pdf
> 
> ...


Hey, if you expect your kids to provide quality entertainment, no amount is too much.  

Kids who win are a lot more entertaining than kids who finish 23rd. And not only that, you don't get to brag about kids who finish 23rd. Okay, you can, but it just doesn't carry the full effect. Like traveling 1st class vs. coach. Both kids finished the tournament, both kids enjoyed themselves, but the parent of the winning kid got complimentary wine and cheese while the parent of the kid who finished 23rd ate peanuts. ha, ha.

I'm kidding, of course, but we do occasionally need to step back, take a deep breath, and ask ourselves... is it really what's best for the kid, or is it what's best for me, their parent? In the long run, is a kid going to care if they were on a traveling ball club, or would they remember a time when they shot a tournament along with their mom or dad, and finished higher than their mom or dad?  

In my club, I now have JOAD archers who help their parents with their archery. I cannot tell you the bond that has created in some families, for which they will always be grateful. Those are the kinds of memories that make me head to the range six days a week, show up to set out bales, and then turn out the lights after everyone has left. When the focus becomes creating memorable experiences vs. specific achievements, then I think you really have a sustainable program and are working for the right reasons.

Don't get me wrong. Some kids are truly driven and their parents do their best to support that focus and drive. Miranda and Scott Leek were a great example of that. So is Matt Zumbo and Gary. Those kids are driven, and I think any parent would love to reward that drive with whatever support they can provide. But in my experience as a JOAD coach for now over 150 young archers, that "truly driven" kid is only about 1 out of every 100 kids we teach. Maybe less. The rest are being "driven" by their parents, to one degree or another.

I often tell my JOAD parents that the kid should be asking them to take them shooting more often than they are reminding the kid to shoot. That is a litmus test in my mind, for who is really driving the train.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Hey, if you expect your kids to provide quality entertainment, no amount is too much.
> 
> Kids who win are a lot more entertaining than kids who finish 23rd. And not only that, you don't get to brag about kids who finish 23rd. Okay, you can, but it just doesn't carry the full effect. Like traveling 1st class vs. coach. Both kids finished the tournament, both kids enjoyed themselves, but the parent of the winning kid got complimentary wine and cheese while the parent of the kid who finished 23rd ate peanuts. ha, ha.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. (But, Lordy, those rare kids who are self driven are a pleasure to behold - like watching Secretariat extend his lead in the Belmont with already a 20+ length lead ... because of what was _inside_ him, not who was beside him.).


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

So much wisdom in this thread. I am having flashbacks.

John, Bill and Melinda Gates have three children who could probably benefit from archery lessons. With your formula you would only have to do one lesson.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

Chris1ny said:


> "Weekly JOAD sessions are shooting and/or scoring sessions with instruction limited to comments like "don't rush" or "you're punching" as he walks back and forth behind the line....He'll use his phone to take video and point out flaws..."
> 
> Rushing or punching the shoot is probably the top 2 causes of poor shots. The fact he takes videos and then point out the flaws, sounds like he is a great teacher and doing a fine job.
> 
> Recommend stepping back, taking it easy, and allow the qualified teacher to teach the group.


Good advice for this semi-helicopter. However, the videos only happen during a private lesson. In reality, most kids get zero personal instruction in a given week and many don't get any over the course of the entire 10 week session. Simply saying "don't rush" is fine for kids who are earlier on the curve but the guys aiming at Bronze could use more. Also, every week is 5 minutes of stretching, followed by 2 rounds of blank bailing, followed by standard 3 arrow ends at 20yds. No drills or exercises and while I'm not a coach I assume there might be some worth doing. Now that I think of it, some weeks don't have stretching and blank bailing, just 3-arrow ends.

JOAD is about $10/week.

I bought a bow along with her so we could shoot together, at least occasionally. If the shop/club offered adult JOAD I'd do it in a heartbeat.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FlyingFishes said:


> Good advice for this semi-helicopter. However, the videos only happen during a private lesson. In reality, most kids get zero personal instruction in a given week and many don't get any over the course of the entire 10 week session. Simply saying "don't rush" is fine for kids who are earlier on the curve but the guys aiming at Bronze could use more. Also, every week is 5 minutes of stretching, followed by 2 rounds of blank bailing, followed by standard 3 arrow ends at 20yds. No drills or exercises and while I'm not a coach I assume there might be some worth doing. Now that I think of it, some weeks don't have stretching and blank bailing, just 3-arrow ends.
> 
> JOAD is about $10/week.
> 
> I bought a bow along with her so we could shoot together, at least occasionally. If the shop/club offered adult JOAD I'd do it in a heartbeat.


Have you asked them to start an adult component?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TomB said:


> So much wisdom in this thread. I am having flashbacks.
> 
> John, Bill and Melinda Gates have three children who could probably benefit from archery lessons. *With your formula you would only have to do one lesson.*


Now, I just gotta find their contact info and see if they want to learn archery. LOL.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Have you asked them to start an adult component?


Yes. The coach said they tried in the past but couldn't get enough people interested to make it worthwhile. I think I may be the only "archer" among the JOAD parents in our group though I don't know about the other 2 groups.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hmm, that's too bad. The program leader really has to encourage the parents to get involved IMO. Most are not comfortable getting up there and actually shooting when their kid is shooting. It's a real paradigm shift for adults who don't already shoot, to see the time as "family time" versus just the time their kid is spending doing "their" activity. It took me a year or two, but now I often have as many as 10 adults shooting with the kids at the same time. And it's just great.

From the things you posted above, it may be time for you to offer to take some classes and get your L1 and L2 (and possibly even L3) certifications, then volunteer to take some of the program and free up the other coach's time a little. Maybe offer to start an adult program. That would be adding value and might be a less threatening approach.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

FlyingFishes said:


> Good advice for this semi-helicopter. However, the videos only happen during a private lesson. In reality, most kids get zero personal instruction in a given week and many don't get any over the course of the entire 10 week session. Simply saying "don't rush" is fine for kids who are earlier on the curve but the guys aiming at Bronze could use more. Also, every week is 5 minutes of stretching, followed by 2 rounds of blank bailing, followed by standard 3 arrow ends at 20yds. No drills or exercises and while I'm not a coach I assume there might be some worth doing. Now that I think of it, some weeks don't have stretching and blank bailing, just 3-arrow ends.
> 
> JOAD is about $10/week.
> 
> I bought a bow along with her so we could shoot together, at least occasionally. If the shop/club offered adult JOAD I'd do it in a heartbeat.


It's almost impossible to give any meaningful individual attention to a specific archer in a group setting. Time constraints don't permit it. And certainly a yellow pin level shooter can't reasonably expect in a group setting to get the subtle nuance of technique insight that he/she needs to eek out those additional few hard earned/won points to a bronze pin. How many times a week are the yellow pins practicing on their own? Have any of them approached the coach to ask for some specific drills or exercises they can be doing on their own time?


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

lksseven said:


> It's almost impossible to give any meaningful individual attention to a specific archer in a group setting. Time constraints don't permit it. And certainly a yellow pin level shooter can't reasonably expect in a group setting to get the subtle nuance of technique insight that he/she needs to eek out those additional few hard earned/won points to a bronze pin. How many times a week are the yellow pins practicing on their own? Have any of them approached the coach to ask for some specific drills or exercises they can be doing on their own time?


I'll admit complete ignorance but I assumed JOAD sessions would be more than group shoots which, while fun, aren't terribly developmental. I envy the group I heard about where each kid gets 1-2 ends with the coach (I think they go to first lane, one at a time). We have 8-10 kids** and there would be time to do this over 90 minutes. I think most of the yellow pin guys shoot 2-4 times a week between sessions.

I gave this thread a very poor title. It should have read something along the lines of, How Can I Best Supplement our JOAD Training?

** 8-10 kids in what I'll call Sr JOAD. These are the guys who shoot during the week and drive to state and national shoots.
10-12ish kids are in Jr. JOAD. Kids who are into earning pins and might grow into the upper group
10-20ish kids are in recreational archery - They fling arrows, have fun, and move to JOAD or drop out after a couple of months or years.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

FlyingFishes said:


> I'll admit complete ignorance but I assumed JOAD sessions would be more than group shoots which, while fun, aren't terribly developmental. I envy the group I heard about where each kid gets 1-2 ends with the coach (I think they go to first lane, one at a time). We have 8-10 kids** and there would be time to do this over 90 minutes. I think most of the yellow pin guys shoot 2-4 times a week between sessions.
> 
> I gave this thread a very poor title. It should have read something along the lines of, How Can I Best Supplement our JOAD Training?
> 
> ...


Agree that a good practice technique is to devote a couple of ends to each archer, over to the side, during some practices. I do this 'some' - not every practice, but it's a rotating component of our practices (we call it' "next victim"). 

The better the archer, the more difficult it can be to 'see' what the coach's contribution is to those extra few points. Just like a baseball pitching coach at the major league level - their job is mostly to intimately know the pitcher's physical motion, and recognize when something gets a little 'off' and get the pitcher back on track. Also more mental/psychological interplay at that level, helping to keep the pitcher psychologically strong and smooth and confident.

It's a difficult thing to try and see through the fog and myriad variables - at some point 'stay the course' or 'look for more from another source' is a 'best guess' exercise.

But, as others have said here, the low hanging fruit is to get some extra coaching hands at JOAD and free up the main guy's time to concentrate more on some individual instruction.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

We have about 30-35 active shooters in our JOAD club. Some evenings in the spring, we have had over 25 on the line all at the same time. We usually shoot for an hour and a half.

I have one assistant coach who typically works with the youngest archers. He has a special way with them and they like him a lot. I tend to focus on the most advanced archers first, and if they look like they are doing okay and don't have any questions of me, I will go down the line and try to watch all the shooters for at least a little while. But it's not easy. I've developed an eye over the past 13 years for being able to spot issues from 100 yards away. Many experienced JOAD coaches have. I usually work out a hand signal for each archer that they understand from a distance, that will remind them what they should be focusing on. With a good consultation and agreement, one word or one hand signal may be all an archer gets from me for an entire practice session. But that's usually enough. They know what it means.

It's very challenging to keep track of all the issues that 25+ archers may have, from form to equipment to mental game to family/personal issues that carry over into their archery, but I enjoy that challenge. Sometimes I don't get it right and some archers have to wait for me to catch up, but I always tell them that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if they are not coming to me to ask for help (if they feel they need it) then that's not my fault. 

Volunteer JOAD coaches are not perfect. Never will be. We miss things, we spend too much time with some kids and not enough with others, we don't know as much as we should sometimes. Sometimes we get too involved when we need to just back off. But I have yet to meet a volunteer JOAD coach that didn't mean well, and frankly, they are the ones stepping up to volunteer so a lot of times they open themselves to criticism that they would never have to deal with if they just sat back and watched, or just picked up a bow and shot. 

I tell my archers all the time that if they want to advance to the Olympian pin level, they need to work with me to set up individual instruction time. Some do. Many don't. That's just how it is I guess.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I don't think there is any "might" to it.
> 
> What can I say, I'm a sucker for teaching archery. And, I could have never have afforded lessons when I was younger, so I don't want to punish people for simply not being rich. Everyone deserves to learn this wonderful sport IMO, regardless of their ability to pay.
> 
> ...


Not really fair at all. The forty bucks from your 40K income family is probably needed to meet the house payment, but the 100 bucks from the upper income family probably would have been used to replace a two year old Escalade.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

(income * .0001)^2 = $16/40k, $100/100k

*OR*

Consider setting up a Patreon account. You set a target for each month and those that can afford to donate are able to. You might be surprised to find that when people are offered the opportunity to 'pay what you want' you might get more than you expect!


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

Come to think of it, we have a dad who, while he doesn't shoot regularly, did get his L1/L2 a year or 2 ago. He's at every JOAD session but never takes an active role. I'll have to suss out if that's his preference or the coach's.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Chris1ny said:


> "Weekly JOAD sessions are shooting and/or scoring sessions with instruction limited to comments like "don't rush" or "you're punching" as he walks back and forth behind the line....He'll use his phone to take video and point out flaws..."
> 
> Rushing or punching the shoot is probably the top 2 causes of poor shots. The fact he takes videos and then point out the flaws, sounds like he is a great teacher and doing a fine job.
> 
> Recommend stepping back, taking it easy, and allow the qualified teacher to teach the group.


Here's one problem I see, if that is actually what the coach said.

"don't rush" could have been more like "nice relaxed grip there, with the right finger angle, now try slowing the process down, focus on coming to a full, steady anchor before releasing"

or "you're punching" might have been "that's a good, repeatable anchor point, let's work on squeezing the shoulders in the shot setup step so the release will fire smoothly"

Sounds like the coach is being spread too thin, working with the beginners who need supervision to shoot safely and to learn a basic shot sequence, while also trying to develop those who have mastered the basics and need extra guidance to achieve their potential.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I'll have to *suss out *if that's his preference or the coach's.


Wow, I've only known one person who ever used that phrase. Must be a NY thing?


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

Eh - I'm from Noo Yawk 'n' I nevah youzed dat woid!


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Great thread.
I'm glad to see that I run my program very similar to other coaches on here.
Weekly practices, one on ones are included each month and training plans developed for each child.
My higher achievers who are old enough work to get their L1 certification.
They volunteer to help the beginner classes and the kids still working in their "lower"/pins.
This shows me who is dedicated to their archery. Who is willing to put the work in to do what it takes.
Also, by helping the other kids it trains them to recognize form flaws and a plan to correct them.
It makes them more aware and open to understand what goes into coaching.
I have had a couple of kids leave in search of a better coach and at the same time, I have a multitude of parents wanting to leave their program to join ours.
I always encourage them to stay with their current club and work with me on the side, with their current coaches blessing of course.
Some of the ones who have left have found the grass isn't always greener. And I would always welcome them back but apparently its too awkward for them now because of how they left.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

XForce Girl said:


> Weekly practices, one on ones are included each month and training plans developed for each child.


What a great thing!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Some of the ones who have left have found the grass isn't always greener. And I would always welcome them back but apparently its too awkward for them now because of how they left.


You're a generous person.

In all my years, I've had two archers leave. Well, one left and I told another they weren't welcome anymore. I eventually welcomed one back, with conditions (that were gladly accepted) and the other, well... They won't ever be welcomed back because of how they chose to leave. Pulling the pin on a grenade and then running out of the room isn't what I consider a class move from any individual. Turns out, it wasn't the first time they had done that, and I suspect it won't be their last. Some folks are just like that, and when they are through taking advantage of someone, they crap all over the place, then burn that bridge and move on.

There have been days where I've asked myself why I even bother to voluntarily open myself to so much criticism. But then, there are many more days when the smiles and excitement on the faces of the kids and their parents is more than reason enough to keep going.

I can tell you this as a JOAD coach - absolutely nothing motivates me more than seeing a parent with zero archery experience, volunteer their time and help out however they can. Maybe it's just refilling paper towel holders in the bathroom before a tournament. Maybe it's just taking registrations or hanging target faces. Maybe it's more than that, but every single time, it makes me rededicate myself to the club because I realize I'm not in this alone.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

FlyingFishes said:


> Good advice for this semi-helicopter. However, the videos only happen during a private lesson. In reality, most kids get zero personal instruction in a given week and many don't get any over the course of the entire 10 week session. Simply saying "don't rush" is fine for kids who are earlier on the curve but the guys aiming at Bronze could use more. Also, every week is 5 minutes of stretching, followed by 2 rounds of blank bailing, followed by standard 3 arrow ends at 20yds. No drills or exercises and while I'm not a coach I assume there might be some worth doing. Now that I think of it, some weeks don't have stretching and blank bailing, just 3-arrow ends.
> 
> JOAD is about $10/week.
> 
> I bought a bow along with her so we could shoot together, at least occasionally. If the shop/club offered adult JOAD I'd do it in a heartbeat.


I do hope you find a better matched group instructor in your area.

Training in a group of peers is very important, as mostly likely these are the same people your child will be competing with in competition. Just this along is worth the $10/week.

Recommend keeping your child in this group, until you can find a better matched group instructor. All the Best.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

FlyingFishes said:


> Come to think of it, we have a dad who, while he doesn't shoot regularly, did get his L1/L2 a year or 2 ago. He's at every JOAD session but never takes an active role. I'll have to suss out if that's his preference or the coach's.


It's very likely that, although he has the L1/L2, he just doesn't feel confident enough to stand up and be the 'expert'. I've had several of the L2s I've trained go through that mental phase. All they really need to get moving is a bunch of encouragement and sometimes some extra training time.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

Chris1ny said:


> I do hope you find a better matched group instructor in your area.
> 
> Training in a group of peers is very important, as mostly likely these are the same people your child will be competing with in competition. Just this along is worth the $10/week.
> 
> Recommend keeping your child in this group, until you can find a better matched group instructor. All the Best.


There isn't another group within a hour and even if there was I wouldn't abandon our current one. The coach is generous and there are 5 or 6 friends who shoot at the same level and it's fun for all of them. As it happens, they mostly shoot in different classes/genders so they can cheer each other on more often than directly compete. I want to add to this, not replace it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I want to add to this, not replace it.


:thumbs_up


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> (snip)
> 
> I tell my archers all the time that if they want to advance to the Olympian pin level, they need to work with me to set up individual instruction time. Some do. Many don't. That's just how it is I guess.


That's the magic word. Work. 

It's not only working with a coach, it's putting the work in general into the process.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> That's the magic word. Work.
> 
> It's not only working with a coach, it's putting the work in general into the process.


Yup, which is why the majority don't set up time with me. Because they know I'm going to tell them how much they need to shoot in order to make use of the instruction we will cover. 

The yellow pin level is a real litmus test for most young archers. After that, you gotta get serious and most kids just aren't that serious about archery as a sport. Of all the JOAD kids I've worked with, I can count on one hand the number of kids who were willing to shoot more than 2x/week or more than 400 arrows/week. And even those would only do that right before a big competition. 

However, I've encountered MANY JOAD parents who WANTED their kid to shoot more than 2x or 400 arrows/week. 

It's a very very rare thing to find a teenage archer who is willing to shoot enough to take advantage of even L3 coaching, much less L4 or 5.

At the same time, many of those same kids have no problem showing up for baseball, volleyball, football, soccer, tennis, swimming or gymnastics practice 3 or 5 times/week. So what does that say about our sport? It tells me we need to fix it to make it more appealing to teenagers - past the "camp" level interest. As a dedicated JOAD program leader, I'm frankly very tired of losing kids I've worked with for years, to other sports. Just lost two of my best archers this year to softball and volleyball. Now that they are in high school, their "other" coaches are telling them to get serious or get cut. So there goes their archery.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Yup, which is why the majority don't set up time with me. Because they know I'm going to tell them how much they need to shoot in order to make use of the instruction we will cover.
> 
> The yellow pin level is a real litmus test for most young archers. After that, you gotta get serious and most kids just aren't that serious about archery as a sport. Of all the JOAD kids I've worked with, I can count on one hand the number of kids who were willing to shoot more than 2x/week or more than 400 arrows/week. And even those would only do that right before a big competition.
> 
> ...


THIS...

We have the same problem. 

I used to offer "advanced" coaching 1/2 hr before our regular sessions, 8:30-9:00(meaning they needed to have gear setup, be warmed up and ready to "work") and most of the times the ones that "said they were interested" showed up 10 minutes before and still had to set up their gear and warm up. Turned out to be a waste of my time so I stopped.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> THIS...
> 
> We have the same problem.
> 
> I used to offer "advanced" coaching 1/2 hr before our regular sessions, 8:30-9:00(meaning they needed to have gear setup, be warmed up and ready to "work") and most of the times the ones that "said they were interested" showed up 10 minutes before and still had to set up their gear and warm up. Turned out to be a waste of my time so I stopped.


You just needed a way to cut them from the varsity team to get their attention. 

Trust me, the possibility of "lettering" in a HS sport can be a big motivator for both teenagers and their parents. And we won't even talk about scholarships.

Give me a "letter" and the chance to cut or bench archers, and believe me, practices would be taken a lot more seriously! ha, ha.


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## FlyingFishes (May 21, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> At the same time, many of those same kids have no problem showing up for baseball, volleyball, football, soccer, tennis, swimming or gymnastics practice 3 or 5 times/week. So what does that say about our sport? It tells me we need to fix it to make it more appealing to teenagers - past the "camp" level interest. As a dedicated JOAD program leader, I'm frankly very tired of losing kids I've worked with for years, to other sports. Just lost two of my best archers this year to softball and volleyball. Now that they are in high school, their "other" coaches are telling them to get serious or get cut. So there goes their archery.


Team vs individual sports. A team bus is filled with friends laughing or complaining about the AP test or celebrating a win or bemoaning a loss. A backyard has a solitary kid searching for unachievable perfection. You can drop a fly ball or miss a penalty kick and still win and get high fives at school the next day - in other words you can commit a sin equal to a flying an arrow over the tree line and go home happy. Archery has more in common with practicing the oboe than with playing softball and as such appeals to different sorts of kids.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not all those are team sports, but I get your point. I've made the team vs. individual sport argument before. I played both soccer and tennis in HS, so I have seen first hand the advantages and disadvantages of both, and in fact, I always encouraged my own kids to play both a team and individual sport, because you learn valuable lessons from each. 

Somehow, we need more of a "team" atmosphere in archery for teens. NASP has this figured out, with their schools competing together as a team. Several years ago, I tried to get some traction for a true JOAD "team" event at JOAD Nationals, but it went nowhere with the USArchery staff. We couldn't even agree here what format or how to group teams based on club size... 

But make no mistake, a true JOAD club championship at JOAD Nationals would be huge. We'd have a lot of kids who would come just to shoot for their club.

IMO, we're really missing the boat here with teenagers - the age where we lose probably 75% (or more) of our youth archers.

Think about it. College archery is a team sport. We need JOAD team events if we really want good retention in this sport.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Not all those are team sports, but I get your point. I've made the team vs. individual sport argument before. I played both soccer and tennis in HS, so I have seen first hand the advantages and disadvantages of both, and in fact, I always encouraged my own kids to play both a team and individual sport, because you learn valuable lessons from each.
> 
> Somehow, we need more of a "team" atmosphere in archery for teens. NASP has this figured out, with their schools competing together as a team. Several years ago, I tried to get some traction for a true JOAD "team" event at JOAD Nationals, but it went nowhere with the USArchery staff. We couldn't even agree here what format or how to group teams based on club size...
> 
> ...


We have it, we just don't promote it. The team rounds could be the catalyst for a 'team' aspect to our sport. It gets the short shrift at all levels in the U.S.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Idea: Regarding the 'team' aspect and also 'high school Letter' motivation to get kids to 'work' at extra practice time and extra instruction - for those JOAD clubs that are non-profit 501c3, why not set required volumes of practice sessions and one-on-one coaching sessions in order to qualify the archer for financial assistance to various out of town competitions? That financial assistance would be graduated (bronze/silver/gold levels), based upon the commitment level/improvement level/results level of each archer. Thus the equivalent of the 'High School Letter'. 

For a 501c3, I assume that money can be donated to the club, and then the club can direct that money toward the competition expenses of a particular archer - the benefit being that the money donated to the 501c3 is tax deductible, rather than the archery expense being paid directly by the parent and thus after-tax dollars. So, a real perk for the archer's family; a perk that costs the JOAD zero $; and tangible motivation (a Support Level roster on the wall) for archers to put in the work necessary to progress.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Idea: Regarding the 'team' aspect and also 'high school Letter' motivation to get kids to 'work' at extra practice time and extra instruction - for those JOAD clubs that are non-profit 501c3, why not set required volumes of practice sessions and one-on-one coaching sessions in order to qualify the archer for financial assistance to various out of town competitions? That financial assistance would be graduated (bronze/silver/gold levels), based upon the commitment level/improvement level/results level of each archer. Thus the equivalent of the 'High School Letter'.
> 
> For a 501c3, I assume that money can be donated to the club, and then the club can direct that money toward the competition expenses of a particular archer - the benefit being that the money donated to the 501c3 is tax deductible, rather than the archery expense being paid directly by the parent and thus after-tax dollars. So, a real perk for the archer's family; a perk that costs the JOAD zero $; and tangible motivation (a Support Level roster on the wall) for archers to put in the work necessary to progress.


Sounds great. You go first.  LOL.

Our club, as healthy as it is, still hasn't yet leaped the 501c3 hurdle. Talked about it for a couple years now, but haven't done the volumes of work required to make it happen.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> We have it, we just don't promote it. The team rounds could be the catalyst for a 'team' aspect to our sport. It gets the short shrift at all levels in the U.S.


I guess by "team" I mean more "club." Not many clubs can field a competitive 3-person team in the same division. Usually clubs have one or two really good compound junior girls or recurve cadet boys, or compound bowmen boys, etc., but rarely does a single club have three competitive archers in the same division and discipline. I'm still thiking more on the club level - similar to college teams. That brings the whole club together, rather than just a handful of members, and also gives more members a chance to contribute to the overall result.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

We could still foster a team aspect. Take your top 2 of each discipline and shoot around the local clubs. That number could vary depending upon how many quality shooters there are in the local clubs. Heck you could make it 1 shooter if you only have 1 quality shooter. Those kids would travel to local meets and compete for your club in any format the club leaders choose. You would then have a traveling team to aspire to within your own club. 

What I'm trying to say is that I believe we have the capability of making archery more team oriented, we just have not focused our energies that way. 

Every year we have a tri club meet where all shooters are included and the best team average wins the traveling plaque. Hey, it's not perfect, but again, we have it. 

There are lots of smart folks here. This could happen in any area.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I guess by "team" I mean more "club." Not many clubs can field a competitive 3-person team in the same division. Usually clubs have one or two really good compound junior girls or recurve cadet boys, or compound bowmen boys, etc., but rarely does a single club have three competitive archers in the same division and discipline. I'm still thiking more on the club level - similar to college teams. That brings the whole club together, rather than just a handful of members, and also gives more members a chance to contribute to the overall result.


We could have traveling 'good natured, grudge match/rivalry' trophies, for bragging rights, between interested JOADS. So, your JOAD, and Tom's JOAD, and Gabe's JOAD, and Lynda's JOAD, and my JOAD, and others' who wished to participate could vie for bragging rights and possession of the Trophy - that would be great fun!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Sounds great. You go first.  LOL.
> 
> Our club, as healthy as it is, still hasn't yet leaped the 501c3 hurdle. Talked about it for a couple years now, but haven't done the volumes of work required to make it happen.


I think I will try to do this, and we'll see how it goes. Based upon what's been discussed here regarding other sports, it helps me see that the defined structure of 1) 'this is what's expected and required' and 2) 'this is the tangible/visible reward' is what a lot of people NEED in order to generate the activity that their '2nd order will' wants to do, but they don't have enough '1st order willpower' to consistently get off the couch and do it.

So, for example - an archer wants to travel to Indoor Nationals next year in College Station, or Outdoor Nationals in Decatur. If they qualify for Gold Level TulsaArchersClub support (based upon practice volume/coaching lessons/competitions participated in/competition performance results throughout the year), the family gets to donate 100% of their competition expenses to the club, and the club then sponsors that same $amount for the archer's competition expenses, plus contributes X% $amount back from one-on-one coaching sessions required to attain the Gold level. For Silver Level support, the family gets to donate 75% of their competition expenses to the club for that same $amount of sponsorship, plus a smaller % matching back from the club of coaching fees. For Bronze Level support, the family gets to donate 50%, for the same but smaller perks. Percentages and requirements yet to be formally determined - I'm just brain storming here. But the point is to create a structure that has to be 1) committed to, and 2) has to be earned, and 3) doing #1 and #2 will result in tangible/visible rewards. Just like a high school sport's requirements and subsequent 'letter' reward. Actually, the JOAD could have an official jacket with Gold/Silver/Bronze letters awarded for the different support/commitment levels attained.

My club isn't yet in anyway visibly robust enough to field/fund a 'travel team'. But I keep thinking of the adage "you can't justify or predict the success of a bridge by counting the swimmers". Or maybe, more appropo, the Field of Dreams mantra "build it and they will come". So, build the model and the structure, then promote it as something that has value that has to be paid for in time, effort, and money. 

Even if it were only to motivate and propel two kids to a full out commitment to seeking their personal capability ceilings, that's two more target archers pushing their envelopes.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Let's just say I've "encouraged" other adults - including officers of our club - to pursue the 501c3 status. Just hasn't happened yet. Maybe someday it will, but I have my hands completely full just running the day-to-day, in addition to attempting to actually coach and manage/purchase equipment for just about everyone. It would take a level of investment equal to my own to obtain and sustain the 501c3 status for the club, and so far I've just not seen that. Not yet. Still hoping to though.

A few years ago, I had to finally admit I couldn't do it all and just start focusing on the things that were best served by my expertise. That's coaching, equipment, and managing tournaments. Most other parents don't have the experience or skills in those areas that I have, so it's a waste of resources if I am spending my time worrying about concessions, bathrooms, and things like bylaws when other parents are just as qualified as I am to do that. 

So in a "triage" sense, I started looking at all the various jobs that needed to be done, and if it was something that other parents were qualified to do, I no longer viewed it as my job. Because there are more than enough things that nobody else is qualified to do, to fill up my schedule, and then some.

Slowly, parents have started coming forward and filling those holes. Very well in fact. So eventually the 501c3 hole will get filled and we will gain capacity. But in order to manage my own burn-out, I have to make some choices, and that one fell into the "I'm not the only one qualified to do that" file.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> We could have traveling 'good natured, grudge match/rivalry' trophies, for bragging rights, between interested JOADS. So, your JOAD, and Tom's JOAD, and Gabe's JOAD, and Lynda's JOAD, and my JOAD, and others' who wished to participate could vie for bragging rights and possession of the Trophy - that would be great fun!


Arizona used to do that between clubs. It became a logistical nightmare. We have since abandoned it and the traveling trophies are sitting in my club's CONEX box.

I'm not saying the concept any work, it does require a babysitter to ensure everything has been taken care of properly.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This club championship really needs to be a priority for our USArchery JOAD coordinator and JOAD regional leads. This really needs to happen either regionally, or at JOAD Nationals. As a JOAD program leader, I need a tool like this to really create a legitimate "team" atmosphere when we travel to events.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

So, as to 501(c)3 status, how does one get that for an archery club? What is the purpose in the IRS application that makes archery clubs eligible for charity status? Is the goal of "fostering amateur sports" sufficient? Or does there need to be more?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> This club championship really needs to be a priority for our USArchery JOAD coordinator and JOAD regional leads. This really needs to happen either regionally, or at JOAD Nationals. As a JOAD program leader, I need a tool like this to really create a legitimate "team" atmosphere when we travel to events.


What are some of your ideas on this? Team awards for combined wins for a club? A handicap for total club roster size? Budget? What would make the awards most useful for team building?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> Arizona used to do that between clubs. It became a logistical nightmare. We have since abandoned it and the traveling trophies are sitting in my club's CONEX box.
> 
> I'm not saying the concept any work, it does require a babysitter to ensure everything has been taken care of properly.


Yeah, I can easily see this being one of those "great ideas that won't work" kinds of things. Well, maybe it could be more easily sustainable if it was only established between two clubs, akin to OU-Texas, Michigan-Ohio State, Alabama-Auburn, etc. The point would be to create a more cohesive sense of team and teammates.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> So, as to 501(c)3 status, how does one get that for an archery club? What is the purpose in the IRS application that makes archery clubs eligible for charity status? Is the goal of "fostering amateur sports" sufficient? Or does there need to be more?


I'm replying remotely off of my phone, so I can't do a link to the document.

Go to AZJOAD.com, then resources. In there, you will see the 501(c)3 paperwork for my club. In the bylaws it shows why we did a nonprofit setup.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Yeah, I can easily see this being one of those "great ideas that won't work" kinds of things. Well, maybe it could be more easily sustainable if it was only established between two clubs, akin to OU-Texas, Michigan-Ohio State, Alabama-Auburn, etc. The point would be to create a more cohesive sense of team and teammates.


The biggest thing was a change in clubs' philosophies.

When my son started in an Arizona JOAD club 7 years ago (Corner Archery's JOAD program specifically), the club's used the WAF/Vegas as the big tournament to gather up and do the club vs club event.

Rules generally required an averaging of sorts of all compound scores, plus a requirement of one recurve archer per club. Highest averages won the trophy for that year.

Clubs, over time, starts doing less emphasis on Vegas, and more on indoor nationals, outdoor nationals, and USAT.

So as the club emphasis changes, hopefully so do other clubs in the group, or the award starts to go south.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> I'm replying remotely off of my phone, so I can't do a link to the document.
> 
> Go to AZJOAD.com, then resources. In there, you will see the 501(c)3 paperwork for my club. In the bylaws it shows why we did a nonprofit setup.


Excellent. Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great resource there. Thanks Steve.

Warbow, there is a thread here from a couple years back about a JOAD team round at Nationals. We hashed out a lot of details in that thread. I haven't let the idea die in my own mind, and plan to bring it up to the USArchery staff again sometime in 2016 - although getting them to think about anything besides the Olympics in an Olympic year is usually an uphill battle.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Great resource there. Thanks Steve.
> 
> Warbow, there is a thread here from a couple years back about a JOAD team round at Nationals. We hashed out a lot of details in that thread. I haven't let the idea die in my own mind, and plan to bring it up to the USArchery staff again sometime in 2016 - although getting them to think about anything besides the Olympics in an Olympic year is usually an uphill battle.


Thanks, I'll do a search. OT: I suppose it is too much to hope that this time USAA will wait until *after* the Olympics before deciding to renew the head coach contract for 4 years?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I always refer to our JOAD CLub as the "Team" Even though the kids participate as individuals. 

Their friends are "Team mates" They have Team shirts and jerseys. 

Our shoots this fall have a team round segment at the end. Should be a fun experience for the kids who have never done it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

XForce Girl said:


> I always refer to our JOAD CLub as the "Team" Even though the kids participate as individuals.
> 
> Their friends are "Team mates" They have Team shirts and jerseys.
> 
> Our shoots this fall have a team round segment at the end. Should be a fun experience for the kids who have never done it.


True, many clubs do this. However, the kids would benefit from an opportunity to shoot in a true team event where everyone contributes to the success of the "team." This is what we lack in our sport for our youth, and frankly, it needs to be fixed.

Cross country is an individual sport, but they've figured out how to have whole teams compete. Same with track. Same with many other sports. Team championships where coaches have to decide who plays and who sits, and in the end, they win or lose as a team. We don't have that. Even in our JOAD "teams" they don't win or lose as a team. This is pretty important to our hyper-social teens these days.


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

In the 70's I played on my HS tennis team and while tennis is an individual sport there was definitely a team aspect. The best player (not me) played 1st Singles, numbers 2&3 also singles, 4&5 were first doubles, 6&7(me) were second doubles. There was a ladder within the team to determine who was #1, but more importantly who was #7 as opposed to #8, 9, 10...

I may have just described how it works today - I have no idea.

Anyhow, there was friendly, healthy competition within the team as well as more serious competition between teams and between each teams' stars. 

No, I don't know how to apply this model to JOAD but it is a mechanism for turning an individual sport into a team sport. BTW, the coach had total discretion for overriding the ladder and bumping a guy down if he skipped practice or cut class or was a poor sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Until USArchery gets serious about promoting a true JOAD club or "team" championship at JOAD Nationals, nothing will happen. There needs to be a carrot out there for all us club leaders to dangle in front of our young archers. Pride in their home club will motivate many kids across this sport.


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Until USArchery gets serious about promoting a true JOAD club or "team" championship at JOAD Nationals, nothing will happen. There needs to be a carrot out there for all us club leaders to dangle in front of our young archers. Pride in their home club will motivate many kids across this sport.


++1


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## mjl0912 (Aug 5, 2014)

This is late to the thread because I found it by accident, but early on you mentioned that you were looking for a coach that does remote sessions. I know of two and I know at least one of them has recently coached JOAD kids to national-championship podium status as primary or supplemental coaches. Neither will encroach on your local club's main coach who is still their primary coach and both work with the kids remotely to refine their skills. If you are interested, IM me and I'll forward you the details.

And don't get caught up on USA Archery coaching levels. I know of a level 4 coach that has yet to have a podium finish and both of the coaches I'm recommending are Level 2 status and far more capable. One of them is the primary coach for the woman who won Bow Hunter Freestyle last year at NFAA Indoor Nationals in only her second year of shooting a bow (and second place in her first year) and the other coach is a professional target archer who competes nationally.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

mjl0912 said:


> This is late to the thread because I found it by accident, but early on you mentioned that you were looking for a coach that does remote sessions. I know of two and I know at least one of them has recently coached JOAD kids to national-championship podium status as primary or supplemental coaches. Neither will encroach on your local club's main coach who is still their primary coach and both work with the kids remotely to refine their skills. If you are interested, IM me and I'll forward you the details.
> 
> And don't get caught up on USA Archery coaching levels. I know of a level 4 coach that has yet to have a podium finish and both of the coaches I'm recommending are Level 2 status and far more capable. One of them is the primary coach for the woman who won Bow Hunter Freestyle last year at NFAA Indoor Nationals in only her second year of shooting a bow (and second place in her first year) and the other coach is a professional target archer who competes nationally.


While I agree that coaching levels isn't something to get stuck on, there is also something to be said for the fact that some areas just don't have the talent pool out there.

You can be the greatest coach in the world. If you don't have people that have at least some level of work ethic or natural athletic talent - all the best coaching in the world is not going to put that athlete on the podium.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> While I agree that coaching levels isn't something to get stuck on, there is also something to be said for the fact that some areas just don't have the talent pool out there.
> 
> You can be the greatest coach in the world. If you don't have people that have at least some level of work ethic or natural athletic talent - all the best coaching in the world is not going to put that athlete on the podium.


That does seem to be the conundrum. And I think of that when folks propose a podium requirement for L4 status. On the other hand, it seems clear that a talented leader and coach makes a huge difference through example and motivation, even in small communities. So, I'm not sure what to think.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> That does seem to be the conundrum. And I think of that when folks propose a podium requirement for L4 status. On the other hand, it seems clear that a talented leader and coach makes a huge difference through example and motivation, even in small communities. So, I'm not sure what to think.


I'm very mixed about it as well. 

In a compromise, I don't see an issue having a potential Level 4 being able to put a kid on a podium in a State/Local/Regional level. 

I do see it being hard to put a kid on a National podium if you don't have the pool of resources in athletes, time, and money.


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## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

The team discussion is a great one. 4H has a great archery team concept. Archers compete as individuals and then are entered as 3-4 person teams and combined scores are used for the team scores. The senior teams that win at state can then advance to nationals. Last year our club tool home more trophies than any any other county in GA, while we had 3 archers place in individual rounds we had 4 teams place. This was a great achievement for the kids/club/teams. The benefit is that even if a club doesn't have that one or two world class archers, a group of dedicated above average archers can excel as a team. 
On a separate note I just finished reading Denise Parkers book, she talks about knowing that as individuals the U.S. Woman didn't stand much of a chance at the podium but as a team she knew they had a shot.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

mjl0912 said:


> This is late to the thread because I found it by accident, but early on you mentioned that you were looking for a coach that does remote sessions. I know of two and I know at least one of them has recently coached JOAD kids to national-championship podium status as primary or supplemental coaches. Neither will encroach on your local club's main coach who is still their primary coach and both work with the kids remotely to refine their skills. If you are interested, IM me and I'll forward you the details.
> 
> And don't get caught up on USA Archery coaching levels. I know of a level 4 coach that has yet to have a podium finish and both of the coaches I'm recommending are Level 2 status and far more capable. One of them is the primary coach for the woman who won Bow Hunter Freestyle last year at NFAA Indoor Nationals in only her second year of shooting a bow (and second place in her first year) and the other coach is a professional target archer who competes nationally.


Just to be clear, do you think the level 4 coach needs to have a podium finish themselves or need a student have a podium finish to be "worthy"? Looking at the pure logistics, if we limit coach's to only being worth their salt if they themselves coach a kid that reach a podium level, just how many can we possibly have? Only so many podium's to go around. If said woman can reach the podium in one or two years from shooting a bow, what does that say about the rest of the class? Better yet, what does it say for the commitment of the lady that shot that much to shoot that way?


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Personally, I do not think a coach must be on a podium on a State or National tournament, nor should they have a student that has done so.

First, certain divisions are easier than others to be on the podium or have a student on the podium. Much easier to get on the podium in any Barebow division then lets say having a student in Cadet Recurve or Cub Compound (here in Arizona, two very competitive divisions)

History is full of fantastic coaches that they themselves were no Hall of Fame athletes. Why would we want to limit the growth of a very good coach just because they themselves don't have the time to practice, tune or just lack the ability.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> I'm very mixed about it as well.
> 
> In a compromise, I don't see an issue having a potential Level 4 being able to put a kid on a podium in a State/Local/Regional level.
> 
> I do see it being hard to put a kid on a National podium if you don't have the pool of resources in athletes, time, and money.


Yes, but having said that, how much real world experience do you have as a L4 coach, if you've not had enough kids to work with that you can find at least one to make a national podium someday? 

Using my own experience, I've now coached JOAD programs in 2 states in very rural areas. The town I coach in right now is 3600 people and 15 miles to the next town of 3000 people. And yet my program has produced multiple national podium archers and multiple Jr USAT and international US team members. 

So I've always been a fan of having a merit-based approach toward earning higher certification levels. You can't simply ignore results.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'll add that any coach worth giving a L4 cert. to should be able to prove they have what it takes to produce a national level archer, be that Jr USAT, an international team member, or a national podium placement. I know plenty will disagree with that. And I suspect I know why.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I'll add that any coach worth giving a L4 cert. to should be able to prove they have what it takes to produce a national level archer, be that Jr USAT, an international team member, or a national podium placement. I know plenty will disagree with that. And I suspect I know why.


It was you that I was thinking of as an example of how much difference a coach can make in a small community. As you note (without braggadocio) you've managed to coach multiple national podium winners. Beyond the coaching it seems like big part of what you did was creating the opportunity and support in your community for that to happen - you made archery happen in your community, at a high level. This leads me to wonder about the various aspects of coaching and certifications. You clearly have education and technical ability, but your program's success seems to also be an outgrowth of your ability as a leader, not merely an instructor. And podium success, it seems, can come from both or either, depending on the community. I've seen some coaches who are good at marketing and attracting talented archers (or parents with money), and others who are terrible at marketing, but solid, knowledgeable coaches. You have both, I'd think. Would that be a requirement for L4?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Considering L4 is approaching the "elite" status of coaching, I believe one should have to show tangible results, outside the classroom, before they can validate their certification. It's in the best interest of the organization, the coach, and their students to allow the coach to complete the coursework, and once passing that, have 2-3 years to show tangible results to validate their L4 certification. If they don't show those results in 2-3 years, then they have to start over.

This does several things. First, it gives the coach the tools to work with to be successful. Second, it gives that individual a kick in the pants to put their newly learned skills to work - thereby helping the students, and Third, it protects the integrity of the certification process by ensuring those coaches are active and productive.

So sure, take the L4 coursework, pass it - receive a L4 cert. subject to a probationary period, then if within 2 or 3 years that coach can meet the tangible results they receive full certification. If a coach has already met the performance criteria, then they receive their full L4 certification as soon as they complete the coursework.

I've said for over 10 years now that any certification process that isn't in part merit-based, will always just be a paper exercise for most folks. And that's not good for anyone except the coach's bank account.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> So sure, take the L4 coursework, pass it - receive a L4 cert. subject to a probationary period, then if within 2 or 3 years that coach can meet the tangible results they receive full certification. If a coach has already met the performance criteria, then they receive their full L4 certification as soon as they complete the coursework.


I have some sympathy for the idea that the number of podium spots is limited, but your proposal also seems reasonable. Any cert that I could earn (and I think I could earn an L4 in its current iteration with a doable amount of work) is pretty much the definition of not elite :wink:

What I find interesting about your suggestion is the separation of the education component from the actual certification, which requires mastery of the education, not merely the recitation of it, as mastery that takes more time than just a seminar to achieve.

I'd like to see USAA decouple the educational materials from the cert, in the sense of letting the public, and instructors and coaches, have access to it. They should be charging for the cert, not for access to printed, or video, educational materials, IMO. (And, of course, coach instructors should be able to charge for their time teaching the cert in person, as they are.)


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

If we are going to use the criteria of a podium by the coach or a student, then we must in turn look at the division in which the podium occurred. We should then set a minimum of competitors in a division in which the criteria counts.

Either that or a podium AND a minimum score.

I understand the ability to learn the information, applying that information to yourself and the teaching of that information are very different things. 

But is a measurement of a podium at a major tournament the answer. I don't think so.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Eh. The only people who care what 'Level' they attain are those trying to monetize the sport. I'm guessing the majority who are getting the advanced certs are more interested in the knowledge gained, than a piece of paper.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Knowledge is the key, not a level of certification


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## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

I think there is a place in the coach development world for educational courses. I have no problem with requiring podium finishes of archers either. 
Let me present my scenario I have shot compound for 20 years, competed in the 3D world and had some success. Over the last several years I decided I needed to give back and get involved in my community, archery was a great way to do that. Anyway I soon found myself involved in 4H and JOAD. With a very limited experience in recurve and none in target recurve, the level 1/2 course was a great start for me and then a couple years later the level 3. These all served as exceptional ways to learn more about recurve shooting. I have read several dozen books, watched several dozen DVDs, and use other media to help me gain the knowledge to coach the recurve archers because I lack the personal experiences to draw from.
So for some one like me some sort of educational program would be awesome.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

RickBac said:


> If we are going to use the criteria of a podium by the coach or a student, then we must in turn look at the division in which the podium occurred. We should then set a minimum of competitors in a division in which the criteria counts.
> 
> Either that or a podium AND a minimum score.
> 
> ...


It's not "THE" answer, but it is part of an important answer to the question "what are you capable of doing with the information?"

I agree that there would need to be standards if it were to mean anything, but even if there weren't, it would still be a stricter standard than what we have now, which is basically classroom-only.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Considering L4 is approaching the "elite" status of coaching, I believe one should have to show tangible results, outside the classroom, before they can validate their certification. It's in the best interest of the organization, the coach, and their students to allow the coach to complete the coursework, and once passing that, have 2-3 years to show tangible results to validate their L4 certification. If they don't show those results in 2-3 years, then they have to start over.
> 
> This does several things. First, it gives the coach the tools to work with to be successful. Second, it gives that individual a kick in the pants to put their newly learned skills to work - thereby helping the students, and Third, it protects the integrity of the certification process by ensuring those coaches are active and productive.
> 
> ...


OK so in my case, MOST of the archers in my program look to state level tournaments, a few on our team are paying the big money to get around to the outdoor tournaments to make an archery name for themselves. They are compound orientated so I am, by far, a third, to the head coach and other assistant coach that have much more compound experience than me. I have a total of 2 of the team that are recurve. And only one has any inspiration to even try the larger tournaments. By virtue of this, and by what you seem to imply, because I lack of students (that are willing to pay out a huge amount of money for a tiny ROI, if I go for my L4 at some point,) I need to start over and earn L4 again because I don't have a program that churns out the recurve podiums? I'm taking these classes to make myself a better archer. If I can be a better archer, I can help improve the kids in my advanced and intermediate classes. The focus needed to be a better archer translates to much more important life skills. 

So why is it I need to have nationally ranked kids in order to be taken remotely serious as a coach? I'm more worried that the kids that take archery lessons (the same way Tae Kwon Do does) for the kids involved is to make them better people through school and life. Top ranked podiums are like reaching the big leagues. It's a big dream with even fewer reaching it. Not my goal to make the big league's, the goal is to make the kids better people. I also do not charge for my time so no monetizing for me.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

RickBac said:


> Knowledge is the key, not a level of certification


That is certainly true. By the time an archer needs someone with a high level of knowledge, who can communicate it effectively, they will know who to seek. The archery community is fairly tight knit in that regard. So having a level anything will not be the criteria a rising archer will use to select a coach.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> So why is it I need to have nationally ranked kids in order to be taken remotely serious as a coach?


You don't. I am currently a level 3 and I think Mike Wischer is only a L2 and If I can speak for me and mike, I think we're taken fairly seriously as coaches. Hell, there are coaches more qualified than either me or Mike that have NO certifications, and they are taken very seriously.

But we're talking about a L4 cert. here. Not everyone should have a L4 IMO.

But hey, this is America and we all get what we want all the time anymore right? I mean, if someone else has a L4 then why can't I have one too? 

It's sad we've reached the point in our society when everyone thinks they are entitled to every certification because they paid their money and spent the time. I know that statement will piss some people off but I'm long past caring. 

IMO, L4 is a completely different animal than a L3, and it should be. You should have to prove you can produce national-level archers to maintain a L4 cert. Otherwise, just be happy coaching with a L3. I am. 

If someone seeks more information for their own interest, that's fine. But I don't see how giving them a L4 certification helps the organization, or the archers.

These are COACHING certifications folks. Not grades on paper tests or self-help courses. The point is to grant certifications to COACHES who will then go out and help archers reach their goals. A certification program that does not require a person to prove they can coach (a.k.a DO THE JOB) is not only useless, it's flat-out misleading to the customer.

Oh, and teaching classes is NOT COACHING. But then, that doesn't serve the organization, so...

John


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