# Let's have a discussion on a few things



## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I quit shooting 300rds before season and just worked on the 3D deer targets at various ranges angles and situations similar to my hunting scenarios I may have. Since then my first shot is almost always dead center where I want it, the few times it's not it's only a 1 1/2" to 2" off the mark. My groups have grown a tad from 4-5" to 6"-7" at 20yds but my first COLD shot is dead nuts, which is what I want for bow hunting and even gun hunting with my rifles too, first shot is what counts


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## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

Nitroboy said:


> I quit shooting 300rds before season and just worked on the 3D deer targets at various ranges angles and situations similar to my hunting scenarios I may have. Since then my first shot is almost always dead center where I want it, the few times it's not it's only a 1 1/2" to 2" off the mark. My groups have grown a tad from 4-5" to 6"-7" at 20yds but my first COLD shot is dead nuts, which is what I want for bow hunting and even gun hunting with my rifles too, first shot is what counts


I agree with this. I started just shooting "one arrow groups" at my deer targets, and my confidence has really soared. Inside my comfort zone (which in my first year trad is only 20 yards) I can put my first arrow into the ten ring almost all of the time. It is working pretty well for me.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

All I can say respectfully is that if it were all about ultimate accuracy everyone would be shooting compounds with releases and sights 

I know some of you are dead nuts on with a barebow but I would wager that these same folks would be more dead nuts accurate with a release and sight on a compound 

So the point I am trying to make is that we all strive for the best we can be with the equipement we chose 

In reality if it where really all about being the best we can be in the field most would be better served with the equipement I have mentioned above 

Bowhunting is a game of inches 

This buck was dead in 15 seconds and did not go to far 

He died with in sight of the hunter and at the feet of a pusher 










This buck was hit far back and not recovered till the next day hundreds of yards from where he was shot 










Things happen in the field and all you can do is prepare yourself to try and do your best


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Thank You Mac11700 for your thoughts... And NitroBoy about that single 'cold-shot' being the only one that counts is so very true... 

About all I could add is that while I have killed and recovered every deer I've shot with a bow, it is not due my being the most accurate shot in the woods. It is more of what shot I take, I strive for an un-disturbed deer, 1/4'ing away, aiming behind the shoulder toward me to pin the off-shoulder, knowing when to pass if things aren't "perfect" and being able to track like Sitting Bulls brother. Being around wild animals for most of the year helps also to read their body language and for me not to get excited(thats for after putting my hands on the Deer)

Of the 100's of thousands of arrows I've shot year- round in my 40plus years shooting a recurve, I have never shot a robin-hood(chipped nocks a lot), because I don't stand the same way at every shot, take a shot, move foward/back/to the side a few steps, wrong foot foward etc. I practice for hunting where things (form, angle) change and are never the same.
. Sorry for the mild rant, Yeah I felt alittle slam from some of the threads here and Thanks again Mac for putting the differences into perspective...


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I strive for perfect form no matter what type of shot I am taking. Over and over and over and over again. This makes me more accurate and when that one hunting shot comes my subconscious ability makes the shot no mater how freaked out I am. This makes me more accurate at targets when I am nervous and the same when I am hunting. One type of shot is the same as the other.
No matter how big or small the kill zone is.
Gary


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

In general I agree with you Mac, although I do have to add that there's no such thing as being too accurate...but I'll assume that is something you agree with too. Scores posted on any official system may or may not equate to accuracy in the field, but I doubt many effective hunters really stink at shooting targets either.

I always end up straddling the fence in these kind of threads since I think the real answer is somewhere in the middle. The best target archers in the world might fall apart or make poor choices and poor shots in a hunting situation, or they may be deadly accurate since their form is so ingrained and they are so used to shooting under pressure that nothing fazes them. The best hunters in the world might not be the most accurate archers in a competitive tournament setting, but some very good hunters are also winning target archers (several posters on this forum). 

I doubt there are many hunters that don't work to improve their accuracy although maybe some should work harder, or at least shoot year round (most traditional shooters don't pull the bow out the week before the season). But, just because many hunters don't shoot and post complete 300 round scores doesn't mean they aren't plenty accurate and effective in a hunting situation. Pet peeve of mine, I've never bought the line "I can't hit targets but never miss on hair or feathers". I've heard it from bowhunters, rifle hunters, heard it on the trap and skeet range, still don't buy it. I've done a lot of bird hunting with people making these statements, worked at a public shooting range for several years, and without fail those making that kind of statement couldn't hit anything regardless of the situation, it's just a face saving statement to cover their lack of practice. No doubt the fast and furious nature of some hunting situations can bring out the best in some people since they don't have time to think; and shooting without thought often brings out the best in us. That's not what I'm talking about here. In my experience the people that were the most successful hunters rarely shot perfect scores but were without fail quite respectable shooters and most importantly, very knowledgeable of the game they were pursuing so they got numerous good opportunities allowing them to only take the highest percentage shots.

There's a lot of difference between standing on a tournament line and making the shot from a treestand. At the same time, there are a lot of similarities. All that really matters as hunters is that we continually strive to improve our shooting. In my opinion both formal target shooting and informal, roving, hunting type practice is important in this regard and I would not do one without the other. One really helps in "form", the other helps make the transition to real world situations while capitalizing on the form you've developed. 

All that said about accuracy and improvement, I don't think it really matters how well a person shoots as long as they restrict their shots to their effective range. I don't mean effective range on a summer evening in a t-shirt after a few warm up shots. I mean effective range in hunting clothing appropriate for your climate and what you can do with your _first_ shot of the day. The best hunters are probably those most aware of their own limitations and those with the discipline to only take high percentage shots.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I stopped shooting paper when hunting season started. My accuracy dropped and so did my confidence. I got it back when I started shooting paper again. I think being a better shot is an asset no matter what. Is it necessary? No, but it sure as heck helps. Like being able to handle a heavier bow. Is it necessary? No, but if you can do it well it helps. 

I agree with Joe though, that if all out accuracy and power were king we'd be shooting sighted compounds with a release. We try our best, and the only real way to "stack the odds" is to accept the shorter effective range, which is personal. For some, that may be any shot under 40 yards in the clear. For others, that may only be 10 yards. It doesn't matter. Shoot as well as you can, and work within your own limits.

One thing I personally see as a problem is the constant statement that as hunters, we need to learn to shoot from a variety of positions and can't really do it with perfect form. I like how Rick Welch talks about it: no matter what the rest of your body (waist, legs, etc.) if you can't get your shoulders in line, and can't get a consistent anchor and draw length and make the same shot you've been making on the ground standing upright, it's not a consistent shot and therefore not a high percentage shot. I think that's pretty darn good advice, and coming from someone not only of his shooting caliber but of his hunting success, I think it's definately worth listenning to here.

Just my thoughts though. I've missed more than I've killed, thankfully cleanly, and though I can say it's because I got bad advice it was still my fault for heading afield without researching all possible styles and approaches.


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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Nitroboy said:


> I quit shooting 300rds before season and just worked on the 3D deer targets at various ranges angles and situations similar to my hunting scenarios I may have.


Same here.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

JParanee said:


> I know some of you are dead nuts on with a barebow but I would wager that these same folks would be more dead nuts accurate with a release and sight on a compound


I done well in the few ASA Pro/Am I shot in(3 with a compound and won money at 2) also won a ASA State championship with a compound, shooting a compound is easy for me, I'm no Levi Morgan by any means but I got pretty good and it got "easy" that's why I have no compounds now all I got are recurves, when I was shooting NFAA 300rds this summer trying to get better I was consistently shooting high 260's with a occasional high 250 throwed in, So your statement is very true, ALOT of the good trad shooters would be super accurate with a compound but that's not why we shoot what we choose is it


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Nitroboy said:


> I done well in the few ASA Pro/Am I shot in(3 with a compound and won money at 2) also won a ASA State championship with a compound, shooting a compound is easy for me, I'm no Levi Morgan by any means but I got pretty good and it got "easy" that's why I have no compounds now all I got are recurves, when I was shooting NFAA 300rds this summer trying to get better I was consistently shooting high 260's with a occasional high 250 throwed in, So your statement is very true, ALOT of the good trad shooters would be super accurate with a compound but that's not why we shoot what we choose is it


Amen


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

You bet Easy..it never hurts to be too accurate. .that has never been the issue. 

The issue is. .When is it alright to be accurate enough when hunting. ? The answer is, when you succeed in killing the animal as quickly as possible. 

Will you be able to do this if you aren't able to shoot a perfect score or win a match..?

If a person is only able to shoot a 6" group consistently can they not be successful at taking deer sized game?

I know and you know they can,but also know they should only be shooting at that animal under certain conditions. .

Tell me, how well would this individual do in a 300 round against some folks who are members of this forum? 

Wouldn't this person actually do better on fur than on paper in their eyes? 

You see,I know a few folks who are just like this. Try as they might they haven't gotten better with what they are shooting and have given up on ever doing what it takes to become better. It is very sad...but very true. 

Granted this is a extreme example of what I am talking about, but, it is relevant to the " better on fur than paper " saying. 

Mac





.


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Most real hunters are pretty up on all the things it takes to hunt, scent , scouting, playing the wind, so I would think they would be as accurate as possible, and know there limits, especially with the trad stuff, I can understand maybe crossbows with a handful of weekend warriors, I personally want every advantage I can get while hunting, including being accurate as I can be , and know my limits, So, odds are a really poor shooter, is more than likely a poor hunter, jmo


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac, why not just look at it from a different perspective? I bet you every guy on here couple shoot a 270 or better on an NFAA... if they can choose the distance from which they shoot. 

One fellow might be able to do it at 20 yards, but another guy might have to be able to do it at 10. 

In a hunting situation we can choose when a shot is "too far" and not take it. Big picture, you might be less accurate than another guy but you are still accurate at your particular range. We're just working on extending that range when we practice to improve.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

It seems the philosophy difference will always be for some that there is accuracy, and there is acceptable accuracy - practical accuracy or bulls-eye (x) accuracy. Doesn't matter what you shoot at, as an archer, you just need to choose what accuracy proficiency you settle for, that is, for an arrow that leaves your bow and goes to where your eye wants it to.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I think we are on the same page Mac, just saying it a little differently. I have no problem with someone who has limited shooting skills hunting, assuming they are congnizant of their limited skills and stay within them in a hunting situation.

On the other hand, I don't think much of people that consciously exceed their skill level even though I will stand up for their right to do so (personal choice). I have actually been reprimanded by an aquaintance for passing on long range shots at deer (rifle at the time). His statement was _"you've got to let fly, you never know, you might hit something"_...I kid you not. Unfortunately that sentiment is not all that uncommon.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

kegan said:


> Mac, why not just look at it from a different perspective? I bet you every guy on here couple shoot a 270 or better on an NFAA... if they can choose the distance from which they shoot.
> 
> One fellow might be able to do it at 20 yards, but another guy might have to be able to do it at 10.
> 
> In a hunting situation we can choose when a shot is "too far" and not take it. Big picture, you might be less accurate than another guy but you are still accurate at your particular range. We're just working on extending that range when we practice to improve.


Great post...:thumbs_up


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I have a difficult time with the separation - Target shooter / Hunter..........I like both, do both, and strive to make the best shot possible no matter if the target is colored paper or foam or fur. To me the paper accuracy and target scores just show what is to be expected at a given distance over a number of arrows. If I can't keep them all on the paper at 20 yards, why would I think I could hit an animal with a vital about the same size as the paper target at the same distance? I think the reason most don't like to shoot targets it that the paper does not lie and at the end of a round and the holes in the paper tell the story. Obviously heavy hunting bows can not be shot as much, but they should be just as accurate. Shooting a full round is not necessary to know what kind of accuracy is to be expected. Several volleys of 3-4 arrow on the same target if all 4's or 5's should give the archer confidence. If those same arrows are in the 1 or 2 ring or miss the target entirely should tell that archer to get closer or make a change because that is not good enough.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> In a hunting situation we can choose when a shot is "too far" and not take it. Big picture, you might be less accurate than another guy but you are still accurate at your particular range. We're just working on extending that range when we practice to improve.





Sanford said:


> It seems the philosophy difference will always be for some that there is accuracy, and there is acceptable accuracy - practical accuracy or bulls-eye (x) accuracy. Doesn't matter what you shoot at, as an archer, you just need to choose what accuracy proficiency you settle for, that is, for an arrow that leaves your bow and goes to where your eye wants it to.





Easykeeper said:


> ....there's no such thing as being too accurate. Scores posted on any official system may or may not equate to accuracy in the field, but I doubt many effective hunters really stink at shooting targets either.
> 
> The best target archers in the world might fall apart or make poor choices and poor shots in a hunting situation, or they may be deadly accurate since their form is so ingrained and they are so used to shooting under pressure that nothing fazes them. The best hunters in the world might not be the most accurate archers in a competitive tournament setting, but some very good hunters are also winning target archers (several posters on this forum).
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Kegan,Sanford, ,Easy...


Yes..yes..and yes..

All are correct here. .

Sanford. Absolutely it is a philosophical answer and I for one am glad you recognize this. 

We each must decide what is accurate enough for us...and no other person can say different. 

Now with that said. ..look at this for a moment. .especially you Kegan..even though I do agree with you. .

Let's say you know a individual that has been successful every time they went bow hunting..for the past 10 years .They have good woodsman skills. They know how to get in range for their shooting abilities. .but..when they try to shoot for groups, they tire quickly and after 10 to 15 arrows they can't keep it up. On paper..any score is dismal. To this person bow hunting is a means to justify 
a end,which is to put more meat in the freezer. This person also rifle hunts too. Do you think being able to score a 270 on a 300 round really matters to them? 

See..this individual is real. .and it doesn't matter to him because he in his own life is better on fur than he is on paper. 

He is not us, he doesn't want to be like us, ,but still is a bow hunter and enjoys huunting 

The world is full of people like this, as hard as it is to believe. Not all share the same passion we do for being here.

I won't ever give up on him, ,even though to me he has given up on himself..but he is happy enough with his skills and who am I to say otherwise. 

Mac


.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know. When I shoot, I want to hit what I'm shooting at. 

Hunting adds a whole separate set of skill requirements and a little bit of luck. So far this season I've had truck/car problems, work issues, home furnace problems and plumbing problems keeping me out of the woods. Then I go into the woods and don't see any deer...no doubt partially due to the lack of scouting time. The shooting won't be an issue until I actually manage to get a deer in shooting range and position. Point being, the way my season is going, I don't even need to bring the bow. LOL


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Let's say you know a individual that has been successful every time they went bow hunting..for the past 10 years .They have good woodsman skills. They know how to get in range for their shooting abilities. .but..when they try to shoot for groups, they tire quickly and after 10 to 15 arrows they can't keep it up. On paper..any score is dismal. To this person bow hunting is a means to justify
> a end,which is to put more meat in the freezer. This person also rifle hunts too. Do you think being able to score a 270 on a 300 round really matters to them?
> 
> See..this individual is real. .and it doesn't matter to him because he in his own life is better on fur than he is on paper.
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Mac, as you know, I don't bowhunt. I do stand in front of targets every single day of the week except Sunday, well, on Wednesday I have the grandkid who can't go to the range or shoots yet.

Anyway, as that, I can honestly say that I have never run across any target archer who has acceptable accuracy in their mind. I bet Brady still feels he doesn't have enough proficiency. I guess for this type mindset, and I'm sure many hunters have the same thinking, it's hard to imagine the level of accuracy where the archer is accepting of his limits.

Now, if like you, an archer is constantly practicing and improving his game, he's practicing - he's then a target archer, same as me, just using different targets more likely. Later, he takes it to the woods. I think we the same more than different.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac, a specific soring style doesn't matter. My point remains pretty much the same. If he stood at five yards, and shot one arrow, went to get it, and shot it again. However many times he wanted to shoot, say just ten arrows, I would bet that there's a range where he could score 80% of the possible points. He has an accurate range, and if he's bagging game he works within that range.

That was all I was getting at: he has a range where he's clearly accurate enough to hit what he's aiming at, and he works within that range. 

It was never meant to be a slight for someone who didn't want to actually score their range. You don't need to do that if you know how far you can actually shoot. If anything, there are just some people who don't yet know their limitations that might benefit from scoring to see where they're limits are.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> Mac, a specific soring style doesn't matter. My point remains pretty much the same. If he stood at five yards, and shot one arrow, went to get it, and shot it again. However many times he wanted to shoot, say just ten arrows, I would bet that there's a range where he could score 80% of the possible points. He has an accurate range, and if he's bagging game he works within that range.
> 
> That was all I was getting at: he has a range where he's clearly accurate enough to hit what he's aiming at, and he works within that range.
> 
> It was never meant to be a slight for someone who didn't want to actually score their range. You don't need to do that if you know how far you can actually shoot. If anything, there are just some people who don't yet know their limitations that might benefit from scoring to see where they're limits are.


You correct Keegan and I wasn't implying any other thing in calling for your acknowledgement to this, but, just trying to show you how some others think. .all is well bro..sorry if it didn't come off that way. 

Sanford..while you may not hunt, ,your a hunter at heart. ..lol Most here do target shoot, but,as you can see many more understand the real world relationship with this, and know that some people who claim accuracy above all else fails to make the connection between the two. 

We have all types here, many of us believe in being accurate. .hell we demand it..but..not all participate in shooting matches, nor compete at it to attain a score or standing. I tend to take my abilities for granted sometimes, and sometimes this causes miscommunications.I just wish others who down talk others because of how well they can shoot would try to find a way to remember we all are archers, ,regardless of how we use the bow..or what score they are capable of shooting. 

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> Mac, as you know, I don't bowhunt. I do stand in front of targets every single day of the week except Sunday, well, on Wednesday I have the grandkid who can't go to the range or shoots yet.
> 
> Anyway, as that, I can honestly say that I have never run across any target archer who has acceptable accuracy in their mind. I bet Brady still feels he doesn't have enough proficiency. I guess for this type mindset, and I'm sure many hunters have the same thinking, it's hard to imagine the level of accuracy where the archer is accepting of his limits.
> 
> Now, if like you, an archer is constantly practicing and improving his game, he's practicing - he's then a target archer, same as me, just using different targets more likely. Later, he takes it to the woods. I think we the same more than different.


I can't speak for other hunters but I shoot just about every day and I can't imagine ever thinking that I'm "good enough". But, I'm that way with everything I do. Not everybody is that way.

Although, I've been told on this forum that I can't shoot well because I shoot behind my barn. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> I just wish others who down talk others because of how well they can shoot would try to find a way to remember we all are archers, ,regardless of how we use the bow..or what score they are capable of shooting.
> 
> Mac


We're all archers like we're all "Americans" (referring to those of us here in the States). It's just that about half of all "Americans" (or a little more) want to force me to live in a way that I just don't want to live. We are NOT all on the same side. That's ok as long as one is willing to let the next guy go his own way.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Well…straight-up…given that this forum is shared by those who hunt and those who don’t, perspectives on accuracy can be taken as an end in itself…or…as a fundamental part of a much broader experience. Also…as to those who both hunt and engage in competitive shooting…there is simply no way to duplicate the complexity of a hunting situation. And to repeat something I said recently…my comparison of the competitive side vs. the hunting side is having one more arrow to shoot to complete a perfect score…and one arrow to shoot at a game animal. All the arrows shot up to that point matter…but the shot at that particular moment is rather profoundly unique. Those on the competitive side have a goal of besting previous scores…while hunters step away from the practice range to engage themselves in pursuit of an opportunity to experience that unique moment…which, more often than not, does not materialize.

Anyhow…I rejected competitive shooting at an early age because I always wanted to see what was going on in the world few people choose to experience. Actually, it is the larger portion of the planet…that operates devoid of the volume of anti-depressants needed for city life. It provides for virtually every living thing…and how much more is there that could be so fascinating?...can’t wait to step away from this computer!

As far as my practice goes, I like to mix things up…never took a liking to paper or spot targets, but do shoot some spot targets just to “get over it”. They simply seem “unnatural” and therefore put my depth perception in kinda a tail spin. I have to look at everything around them and sometimes resort to a “center of mass” mentality. At 10 yards, sometimes I have to alter perception to make the “center of the center” a vitals shot on small game, just to zone in, and after the first arrow I’m just trying to break nocks. But more specifically on shooting groups, personally, I consider it a necessity in pinpointing errors in my shooting…something I believe to be an acquired ability that’s not readily available to the inexperienced.

Probably because I’m primarily a bowhunter, and self-taught, I hardly ever use the word “form” because it evokes the “classic” target archer imagery. That said, I kinda share fundamentals…balance is often a priority and there’s many positions in which I can set my body and be functionally balanced. Personally, I would consider core-strength as a/the principle enabler in this department (…which, speaking to the recent post about warm-up exercises, also benefits standing upright with good posture). Also, to me, I do not consider foot placement/balance/posture as my shooting “platform”…my “platform” operates at shoulder level: alignment of bone to bone, head position, and muscle involvement from back to front, end to end.

Sooo…bringing this back to the accuracy thing, practice is almost it’s own entity…where we can learn much about ourselves mentally and physically…and on a similar plane, we can gain increased familiarity with a bow. Despite all the bows I’ve shot since then, I can still pick up the bow I shot from my teens through my twenties and complete my intent better than with any other bow…like I never put it down. I know it’s speed, trajectory, and how far it can throw an arrow…better than I know the changing face looking back at me in the mirror.

Got to end this…sooo…although focus is a subject of its own in practice, when the rubber meets the bowhunting road, practical application works within a “margin of error”…which is kinda the foundation of every “forgivable” feature we may value in our equipment, and much of how we decide on “effective range”. That is not to say “error” is acceptable…but more a matter of accepting the dynamics of a particular script that only exists, under “uncontrollable circumstance”, and for only once in all time. A similar situation may present at another time…but each will be as singularly unique as the last arrow in making a perfect score.

Well, enough rambling here…time to go ramble in the great outdoors. Enjoy, Rick.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

MGF said:


> We're all archers like we're all "Americans" (referring to those of us here in the States). It's just that about half of all "Americans" (or a little more) want to force me to live in a way that I just don't want to live. We are NOT all on the same side. That's ok as long as one is willing to let the next guy go his own way.


Very true. .but that's a different topic for a different thread me thinks...:laugh:

Mac


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

MGF said:


> Although, I've been told on this forum that I can't shoot well because I shoot behind my barn. LOL


for some, hitting the barn is their goal...which has the potential of making you a legend. rick.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MAC. I'm glad you started this thread. I had intended to start one similar because I agree that some ideas that are heavily promoted here in the forum could in fact be detrimental to some people who intend their archery to be mostly hunting related. I think I will let this one run it's course first as it will probably set the stage for the thread that I had in mind.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have only read the original post - so some of this may have been covered...

My view is that Accuracy is the most important aspect of archery - whether it be hunting or target.

The more accurate you are the less chance of wounded animals. The tighter you can keep your arrows to the center of the vitals, the less chance of a wounded animal.

Of course, as a hunter, you also need skills as a hunter and need to understand the animal you hunt and its behavior. But if you are not accurate, you can be the greatest hunter in the world and youir freezer will still be empty.

The same applies to accuracy - if you are amazingly accurate, but do not know the animal you hunt, you will not find it and/or you will not understand its body language on when to draw/shoot or not, etc...

But the bottom line on it to me is that you can NEVER BE TO ACCURATE and all archers should strive to be as accurate as they can and NEVER say "good enough". Obviously we will all not become world champions, but we can all strive to be the best we can with the time and equipment we have.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

kegan said:


> Mac, why not just look at it from a different perspective? I bet you every guy on here couple shoot a 270 or better on an NFAA... if they can choose the distance from which they shoot.
> 
> One fellow might be able to do it at 20 yards, but another guy might have to be able to do it at 10.
> 
> In a hunting situation we can choose when a shot is "too far" and not take it. Big picture, you might be less accurate than another guy but you are still accurate at your particular range. We're just working on extending that range when we practice to improve.



Different perspective? How dare you come up with such an idea!:wink: And that's why there is usually no black and white answer to most things.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

I have a piece of an old 3D target out in the yard in front of my target. It is about the size of a kill zone. As the days get short and my shooting opportunities are less in number and time during the season I get out there. May only get six shots after work. If I can be at my 20 yards and go six for six with no time spent warming up or walking in my shooting I am in my mind as ready as I need to be. No 300 round needed. I need one good shot and I need to be able to do it on the first arrow of the day.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have only read the original post - so some of this may have been covered...
> 
> My view is that Accuracy is the most important aspect of archery - whether it be hunting or target.
> 
> ...


This pretty much covers it. :thumbs_up

There is a LOT more to hunting than punching holes in a target face.

One must learn to consistently get close to animals they want to shoot…

One must learn to read an animals body language….

One must learn to exercise restraint when the situation is just not right….

Once one learns how to hunt, in order to be successful they need to be accurate. There is no such thing as being too accurate. The equipment we choose to hunt with only changes our realistic effective range, not our knowing how to hunt, or our practice.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

While we all strive to be better, the idea that there isn't, or shouldn't be a "good enough" to hunt is wrong in my opinion. If there wasn't, nobody would ever take to the woods or loose an arrow at anything.

There has to be a good enough, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as good as one would like to be.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

KPC


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GEREP said:


> While we all strive to be better, the idea that there isn't, or shouldn't be a "good enough" to hunt is wrong in my opinion. If there wasn't, nobody would ever take to the woods or loose an arrow at anything.
> 
> There has to be a good enough, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as good as one would like to be.
> 
> ...


"Good enough" to go hunting is fine, but the best archers in the world never stop trying to get better.

Many of us are good enough to hunt, but we still strive to be better.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Big Country said:


> Many of us are good enough to hunt, but we still strive to be better.


So then we agree, there actually *is* a "good enough."

KPC


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

No - there is never good enough - one should always strive to be better. I don't have a "good enough" attitude toward much of anything in life. I try to do my best at everything.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I see the "good enough" trad archers at shoots all the time - the "foam is good crowd" - and to be honest - they are a joke. They make traditional archery look ridiculous. They bash compound hunters, yet they cannot hit the broad side of a barn! They claim that they are not accurate on targets that look exactly like the deer that they hunt, but are driving tacks in the vitals when hunting - as if anyone beieves this bs!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GEREP said:


> So then we agree, there actually *is* a "good enough."
> 
> KPC



I guess you could say that. 

And we probably also agree that any proficiency testing is a bad, bad, idea.

Where we might disagree is on our idea`s of just "what" good enough is.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> No - there is never good enough - one should always strive to be better.


So are we to assume that you don't hunt? I mean after all, if you aren't good enough, I can't believe that you would knowingly subject an animal to that.

KPC


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Good conversation. I would add that there are many differing mentalities toward archery based upon the individual goal. My personal view is that the end does not justify the means but rather the end is determined by the process. Basically if we perfect each individual step of the shooting process the end result has not choice than to follow. It is when we focus on the end result and that alone we never achieve our potential of accurate shooting. It’s the reason why in some forms of Asian archery arrows are fired down a dark lane and where the arrows land is never known until the arrows are pulled from the butt. Perfection of the process in its entirety leads to the arrow hitting the same mark time and time again. Now I understand this is a bit far-fetched due to the fact that sighting and a defined target has to eventually be part of the process but I think you guys can get where I'm coming from.
Another point I'd like to make is that one’s perception of his effectiveness is not always a reality unless it is tested in the arena or in the case of hunting, very close simulation. I once invited some very self assured bowhunters to a local 3D shoot where we shot at very normal "bowhunting" distances. After 15 targets these folks’ quivers were much lighter and their hearts were much heavier. 
Personally I believe that one can never be too accurate nor should we become content because contentment leads to mediocrity. In hunting, accuracy in my opinion should be as optimal as one can practice to make it. This is because Murphy's Law seems to prove true more often when shooting living breathing targets than inanimate ones. If one can split hairs at his effective range and Mr. Murphy shows up and the shot is off by a few inches a successful kill will still be made. But pie plate accuracy and Mr. Murphy seldom lead to anything positive.


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

> This makes me more accurate at targets when I am nervous


You nervous? I don't believe that for a second. What do you got to be nervous about?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Don't pick on me I can't take it 


Gapmaster said:


> You nervous? I don't believe that for a second. What do you got to be nervous about?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I hunt and I am always trying to be a better hunter - I am never "good enough" - I do the best I can and always strive to be better, but I am never "good enough".


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Ahhh…What I had edited out of my previous response was a disclaimer of sorts…in anticipation that “communication” would venture into the realm of more broadcasting of the lowest common denominator. Granted, such will always be present when viewing hunters…of every sort…but I don’t see that as particularly useful, in the context of trying to help others. I have yet to see a post that treats target archers similarly…or has the time come to judge and showcase some as underachievers and overall incompetents…and to what end?

Not that age has much to do with it, but as the start of my 66th year may soon become a reality, I have seen wannabe’s virtually across the board of endeavors. They will always be with us, as well, and I simply cannot come up with a good reason for bringing them into a serious discussion about accuracy. It’s not those that say they perform better on live critters that I listen too, or even give much credence, unless they have a long track record in support of same. If there is a “rule” that says any/all of these “out of the ordinary” claims are just BS…then I can say that I’ve witnessed the exceptions.

Hmmm...what happens to come to mind is a rather infamous “Hail Mary” pass, that could probably be considered the highlight of one quarterback’s career…and….even closer to home, just how much credit does Robin Hood deserve for making one memorable shot? 

Ho-hum…time to exit the not too merry-go-round. Practice, practice, practice….and Enjoy, Rick.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

This past Saturday I was on the ground hunting Sika deer. Near dark I leaned forward to stretch my back and spied an ear cocked towards me from close range. A large hind caught my movement but just HAD to find out what I was. She pogo sticked to within 5 yards directly in front of me, ate a leaf, all the time staring me down as it got progressively darker. She moved off 15 yards still looking at me and I figured now or never. I bent over 45 degrees to the right, canted the bow around a tree and let fly an arrow at a dark deer silouette. Clean miss (found the arrow) and it was so dark I didn't see the arrow fly so didn't know if I was high or low.

All the shooting in my back yard, all the form practice and 3-D tournaments almost every weekend did not prepare me for that shot. It was one of a kind. I'd like to have it over though.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Kegan,Sanford, ,Easy...
> 
> 
> Yes..yes..and yes..
> ...


Mac, please clarify. You say you know a "real" bowhunter who is successful everytime they have gone bowhunting for the past 10 years. Are you saying they have been successful every season or are you saying they have been successful everytime they have gone into the woods. If you are saying the latter, then I am going to call BS on you, if you are saying the former, you may or may not have made your point and here's why. Unlike this crappy hunting state I live in, many states have hunting seasons that last for2-3 months or more. If your friend goes out everyday for 90 days and harvests 1 deer, you could call him successful for that season. Others might call him a dud for not being able to harvest an animal in the other 89 days, and how many shots did it take him to be successful. There are so many intangibles and unknown in being a good hunter that I feel it is a subject that is impossible to pass judgement on. To be honest with you. I never give a thought as to how good of a hunter other people in the woods are, I just want to be the best I can be. Several posters are discussing what is good enough? What is good enough in being a good father? What is good enough in being a good husband ? All those questions are unanswerable because there are too many different scenarios to judge. Agree with posters who say you should strive to be as accurate as you can be with the equipment you choose to shoot


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

This by no means is meant to sound cocky or arrogant...but I definitely see myself as being 'good enough'. In fact I see myself and quite a few other archers as being MORE than 'good enough'...BUT I'm also a perfectionist and always strive to become better.

Ray :shade:


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

rickstix said:


> Well…straight-up…given that this forum is shared by those who hunt and those who don’t, perspectives on accuracy can be taken as an end in itself…or…as a fundamental part of a much broader experience. Also…as to those who both hunt and engage in competitive shooting…there is simply no way to duplicate the complexity of a hunting situation. And to repeat something I said recently…my comparison of the competitive side vs. the hunting side is having one more arrow to shoot to complete a perfect score…and one arrow to shoot at a game animal. All the arrows shot up to that point matter…but the shot at that particular moment is rather profoundly unique. Those on the competitive side have a goal of besting previous scores…while hunters step away from the practice range to engage themselves in pursuit of an opportunity to experience that unique moment…which, more often than not, does not materialize.
> 
> Anyhow…I rejected competitive shooting at an early age because I always wanted to see what was going on in the world few people choose to experience. Actually, it is the larger portion of the planet…that operates devoid of the volume of anti-depressants needed for city life. It provides for virtually every living thing…and how much more is there that could be so fascinating?...can’t wait to step away from this computer!
> 
> ...


Like most of Rick's posts, I like this.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

reddogge said:


> This past Saturday I was on the ground hunting Sika deer. Near dark I leaned forward to stretch my back and spied an ear cocked towards me from close range. A large hind caught my movement but just HAD to find out what I was. She pogo sticked to within 5 yards directly in front of me, ate a leaf, all the time staring me down as it got progressively darker. She moved off 15 yards still looking at me and I figured now or never. I bent over 45 degrees to the right, canted the bow around a tree and let fly an arrow at a dark deer silouette. Clean miss (found the arrow) and it was so dark I didn't see the arrow fly so didn't know if I was high or low.
> 
> All the shooting in my back yard, all the form practice and 3-D tournaments almost every weekend did not prepare me for that shot. It was one of a kind. I'd like to have it over though.


I feel your pain there are so many encounters I wish I could have over


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

I think the point of being "good enough" was missed by a few. It doesn't mean you don't want to improve, but for someone starting out there must be a point you feel you have become proficient enough, within limits, to try and take game with your equipment. How else do you know when you are ready to hunt? There are a lot of guys getting away from hunting with compounds, myself included, and we don't just start shooting traditional one day and decide to hunt soon after.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

"...within limits..."

Exactly. Someone is good enought to hit the spot at 10 yds, they stay within their limits and try to get better so they can be comfortable at 15, or 20, or 25, etc.


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## K31Scout (Sep 17, 2003)

Archery is archery and hunting is hunting; two different pursuits.
In my opinion whatever weapon you chose to hunt with you should be the best you can be.
When I shoot my bows or guns it's all about the smallest group possible. 
When I hunt it all comes down to the shot. 
All the scouting, building blinds, making scrapes, eliminating my scent and walking for hours in the dark...all...come...down...to...an...accurate...shot. 
Why shrug off on the accuracy?
I've read the story a 100 times of the old man giving his kid one .22 short to bring home a rabbit for dinner (the kid better be accurate).
I remember Fred Bear saying if you can hit a 6" pie plate at 20 yards it's good enough for deer. That's shooting 240 on a NFAA blue face. If you can't do it shoot closer.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

To put my own abilities in perspective as it relates to good enough... Every time I get ready to get down from the stand, I pick a pine cone from 0-30yds. I try to pick one where I'd likely get a shot. If its past 20 yds I try not to hit it but to bit about 4-6" under it depending on the distance out to 30 yds, bc I've studied the behavior of the miniature white tails around here and know they'll drop. 0-20 I try to nail it. 9 of 10 times out to 20 I nail it... 7of 10 times I hit just under out to 30yds right where I was aiming. The other times I'm left or right a few inches or will have an occasional wild shot. On the 3d courses this summer i averaged 8.7 for unknown ranges out to 25 yds. the result of all that... Ill take a shot on a tweaked out deer out to 23 yds all day and out to 30 only if I'm hunting the property next to the tracks when the train is coming. That's friggin good enuff, Or huntin accurate as yall call it. If that aint good enough for u, well pound sand for all I care. 

Dave


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I don't often agree with Ken but I think he's bang on here. This site must be a unique place in the Trad hunting world because everyone is good enough to nail deer first shot.
I take it none of you have been to Compton or Hawkeye or Denton or any trad shoot. There will be 10% very good shots, 10% good shots, 20% reasonable shots and 60% awful shots. Difference is, the good shots practice to be accurate and keep getting better the crap shots just bash compound shooters and blather on about hunting is a right, the deer belong to the people and no one should question my abilities to shoot one.
A good target shooter may or may not be a good hunter but a bad target shooter will definitely not be a good hunter.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Mac, please clarify. You say you know a "real" bowhunter who is successful everytime they have gone bowhunting for the past 10 years. Are you saying they have been successful every season or are you saying they have been successful everytime they have gone into the woods. If you are saying the latter, then I am going to call BS on you, if you are saying the former, you may or may not have made your point and here's why. Unlike this crappy hunting state I live in, many states have hunting seasons that last for2-3 months or more. If your friend goes out everyday for 90 days and harvests 1 deer, you could call him successful for that season. Others might call him a dud for not being able to harvest an animal in the other 89 days, and how many shots did it take him to be successful. There are so many intangibles and unknown in being a good hunter that I feel it is a subject that is impossible to pass judgement on. To be honest with you. I never give a thought as to how good of a hunter other people in the woods are, I just want to be the best I can be. Several posters are discussing what is good enough? What is good enough in being a good father? What is good enough in being a good husband ? All those questions are unanswerable because there are too many different scenarios to judge. Agree with posters who say you should strive to be as accurate as you can be with the equipment you choose to shoot


Every season. 

This man is 10 for 10.

He doesn't score every time he goes into the woods as far as I know, I don't know anyone who is that lucky or good. 

For myself, there is always room for improvement, and I always like to try different things to help me with that. 

The point is for some, they are good enough to get the job done. It is up to the individual to make that determination not any of us. I try not to judge others by what I consider good enough and put them down. 

Mac


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I hunt and I am always trying to be a better hunter - I am never "good enough" - I do the best I can and always strive to be better, but I am never "good enough".


Apparently, though you are trying not to, you are agreeing with me. Even though you might not be as good as you'd like to be, you feel as though you are "good enough" to hunt. If you didn't , you wouldn't be out there.

Point being, we ALL make a determination as to what is "good enough" even though we might not think we are as good as we can be. It's a judgment call that each individual has to make for* themselves.* For *every* person, whether they are a target archer or a hunting archer, there is a distance where they become ineffective. For some, that might be 10 yards, for others it might be 40 yards. The fact that you or I see someone shooting poorly at a 3D event means nothing as long as they are honest with themselves when it matters, at a distance that matters in a scenario that calls for it.

If we waited till we were as good as we wanted to be before we did anything, well...we would NEVER do a thing.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to live that way.

Like the saying goes, *"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

*KPC


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

I shoot with a half dozen guys on a regular basis that have their names listed in the record book for one kind of animal or another, and I can tell you that at least 3 of them ( I'm giggling as I type this), well, lets just say it's all they can do to hit a 40 yard field face--even outside the rings, just the cardboard. Most of the time they miss the first arrow or two, and before it's over with they have shot a half dozen arrows at the target out of disgust. Yet, these guys are full of stories of all these great shots they have made every year on animals. I just take it with a grain of salt because deep down I think they are full of garbage. Our club shoots unmarked 3-D's usually once a month and hardly ever over 30 or 35 yards on the targets. These guys miss half of them. Arrows kicking up sand or bouncing off trees. I could miss 1/3 of the targets (even though I don't LOL) and still out score them--every time. But, my point being, most of the archers that know of them think they are great hunters. Personally, I think they go on 4 day hunts and spend 3 days looking for animals. And lord knows how many they never find. But we will never know that. My thoughts on the topic is I think I would believe any day that a great target finger shooter would be more successful most of the time hunting, except for the occasional lucky shot made by the guy less proficient in his shooting abilities. I don't believe for a second that guys that cannot shoot unmarked 3D's very well will never miss when hunting. Unless of course they are always making 5 or 10 yard tree stand shots and that's it. Arrow for arrow, distance for distance, the progressed target archer will always do better in most practical circumstances. Just my thoughts.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Funny thing...the more I practice the luckier I get.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Bender said:


> Funny thing...the more I practice the luckier I get.


Ain`t it funny how that works. :wink:


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

I believe the first shot I ever took as an adult was accurate enough to kill a deer.

But I became interested in the target game. For several years in good weather I went to the local range up to 6 days a week. It was my stress reliever after work. It has field archery ranges so I worked hard at all the distances and a variety of target games. And I have tried several dozen bow setups. And I eventually was able to win a number of championships.

But I also do more casual shooting for fun. One day I decided to shoot the field course using different form for every shot, instead of exactly the same. Fast/slow, squatting, kneeling, under limbs, between saplings. After about 40 shots I was out of ideas and had to do some repeats, but I shot pretty well. At hunting distances, mostly good hits. 

And most days when I am shooting target style I take a couple of quick shots Howard Hill swing draw style. They may be the most accurate shots of the day. 

There are a lot of ways to enjoy the sport, and high grade target style is only one of them. If that is all they were allowed to do some guy's heads would explode. So shoot like you want to. - lbg


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Gapmaster said:


> I shoot with a half dozen guys on a regular basis that have their names listed in the record book for one kind of animal or another, and I can tell you that at least 3 of them ( I'm giggling as I type this), well, lets just say it's all they can do to hit a 40 yard field face--even outside the rings, just the cardboard. Most of the time they miss the first arrow or two, and before it's over with they have shot a half dozen arrows at the target out of disgust. Yet, these guys are full of stories of all these great shots they have made every year on animals. I just take it with a grain of salt because deep down I think they are full of garbage. Our club shoots unmarked 3-D's usually once a month and hardly ever over 30 or 35 yards on the targets. These guys miss half of them. Arrows kicking up sand or bouncing off trees. I could miss 1/3 of the targets (even though I don't LOL) and still out score them--every time. But, my point being, most of the archers that know of them think they are great hunters. Personally, I think they go on 4 day hunts and spend 3 days looking for animals. And lord knows how many they never find. But we will never know that. My thoughts on the topic is I think I would believe any day that a great target finger shooter would be more successful most of the time hunting, except for the occasional lucky shot made by the guy less proficient in his shooting abilities. I don't believe for a second that guys that cannot shoot unmarked 3D's very well will never miss when hunting. Unless of course they are always making 5 or 10 yard tree stand shots and that's it. Arrow for arrow, distance for distance, the progressed target archer will always do better in most practical circumstances. Just my thoughts.


10 yard tree stand shots are pretty common in many areas of the country.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> For myself, there is always room for improvement, and I always like to try different things to help me with that.
> 
> The point is for some, they are good enough to get the job done. It is up to the individual to make that determination not any of us. I try not to judge others by what I consider good enough and put them down.


Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Depending on the angle the kill zone on a 15 foot tree stand shot can be pretty darn small.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Depending on the angle the kill zone on a 15 foot tree stand shot can be pretty darn small.


Yepper. Also my effective range has gotten shorter as I have gotten older. Another axiom.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

CAPTJJ said:


> I think the point of being "good enough" was missed by a few. It doesn't mean you don't want to improve, but for someone starting out there must be a point you feel you have become proficient enough, within limits, to try and take game with your equipment. How else do you know when you are ready to hunt? There are a lot of guys getting away from hunting with compounds, myself included, and we don't just start shooting traditional one day and decide to hunt soon after.


Bingo...

One of the issues I have seen here is that many people act like the vast majority of new shooters are that irresponsible. 

One of the other issues I see, is there are many here that still believe what the see some folks doing at some tournament is indicative to everyone in this country . Why do they act like this,that's easy. ..this way they can put others down. It gives them a excuse to feel superior to those who aren't as accurate or have the same opportunities they have. They love to complain about some of the old guard that show up to socialize and who can't shoot, and those that are there to try, and can't shoot good . They want to act like that small cross section of people who attend these events are the majority of shooters in this country. ..like I said before. .This is laughable at best. Yet the persist in this type of behavior here..and they get real annoyed when anyone points this out.They get upset when someone calls them elitist. .which is what they are acting like..being no better than the old gaurd at those events.



Mac


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Bingo...
> 
> One of the issues I have seen here is that many people act like the vast majority of new shooters are that irresponsible.
> 
> ...


LOL, Mac, your real name isn't Jonathan Martin is it? I'll be happy to send you some cheese with that whine. I think that the overwhelming majority of top tier finger shooters appreciate and encourage more shooters showing up to all competitions. I also think they realize that archery competitions are dependent on the everyday archer showing up because if tournaments were only attended by the top tier shooters, there would a serious lack of shooters attending and, soon, there would be very few tournaments available. In contrast to your argument, I find that there is much more putdown of the serious shooters on these threads by people who can't or won't put the time in to improve, so they call those who choose to excel "elitists".. This is one of the few sports I have competed in where there is so much jealousy of the champions of our sport. It is a sad commentary on archers when someone shows respect to a Multiple time World Champion and then is called a "hero worshiper" or a "groupie". I feel sorry for those people who are so insecure that they can't share in a fellow archers glory and judging from past posts on many threads, there are a lot of insecure archers out there.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

It's a Chicken and Egg situation, to get good enough you have to get out there and shoot tourneys and gain experience/confidence, I think it's elitist to judge someones shooting when you have no real understanding of where they are in their archery journey, we all have to start at the bottom and work our way up.

For some people good enough is all they want, maybe the only chance they get to shoot is at tourneys and have no club or space to shoot at home and have only a social interest in the Sport, yes I've met some loud blowhards but the majority of Archers I've met at tourneys are genuine people who love shooting, just because you don't want to be the best shot in the country/world doesn't mean you've given up and certainly no reason to look down on people.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

itbeso said:


> LOL, Mac, your real name isn't Jonathan Martin is it? I'll be happy to send you some cheese with that whine. I think that the overwhelming majority of top tier finger shooters appreciate and encourage more shooters showing up to all competitions. I also think they realize that archery competitions are dependent on the everyday archer showing up because if tournaments were only attended by the top tier shooters, there would a serious lack of shooters attending and, soon, there would be very few tournaments available. In contrast to your argument, I find that there is much more putdown of the serious shooters on these threads by people who can't or won't put the time in to improve, so they call those who choose to excel "elitists".. This is one of the few sports I have competed in where there is so much jealousy of the champions of our sport. It is a sad commentary on archers when someone shows respect to a Multiple time World Champion and then is called a "hero worshiper" or a "groupie". I feel sorry for those people who are so insecure that they can't share in a fellow archers glory and judging from past posts on many threads, there are a lot of insecure archers out there.


I am sorry, but at no time here did I just single out the top tier finger shooters,so I have no clue where that is coming from but it is real easy to see who are downing others..

Secondly, I do give credit where credit is due, but I refuse to go along with some of the cap some of these top shooters here say. Should they be called what they appear to be. .yes..elitist. .Anyone who chooses to put someone else down just because it somehow raises their own self interest is a elitist. 

Third I am not saying all top shooters do this, but all one has to do is use the search feature here or even actually go back and look on this thread to see who does.

Lastly I'm not the one calling anyone a hero, or a groupie, so look somewhere else for those who choose to do that...and I stand by my previous post you elected to quote me on..and if this hits too close to home for you, I am sorry, ,perhaps you should reevaluate how you are wording your post to reflect showing some respect to how others may feel....because you aren't above reproach sir.. Ive been guilty of doing this in the padt as well, so you aren't alone in doing so. 

No one has a right to put others down because of their skill level regardless of who they are..how many championships they have won or by how many tournaments they participate in. ...Period.. It isn't proper, and for those who are top shooters..champions. .to do this..accomplishes nothing and only diminishes any and all respect I would normally give them...

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> I am sorry, but at no time here did I just single out the top tier finger shooters,so I have no clue where that is coming from but it is real easy to see who are downing others..
> 
> Secondly, I do give credit where credit is due, but I refuse to go along with some of the cap some of these top shooters here say. Should they be called what they appear to be. .yes..elitist. .Anyone who chooses to put someone else down just because it somehow raises their own self interest is a elitist.
> 
> ...


I did it. I used the terms "hero worship" and "groupie" in another thread. I shoot and hunt but I don't really follow any "sport". I don't know who the "champions" are (unless I come across a mention of it here) and I don't really care.

I come here to talk about archery with other archers and simply respond to what's written.

Just read what itbeso wrote carefully


> In contrast to your argument, I find that there is much more *putdown of the serious shooters on these threads by people who can't or won't put the time in to improve,* so they call those who choose to excel "elitists".. This is one of the few sports I have competed in where there is so much *jealousy of the champions *of our sport. It is a sad commentary on archers when someone shows respect to a Multiple time World Champion and then is called a "hero worshiper" or a "groupie". *I feel sorry for those people who are so insecure that they can't share in a fellow archers glory *and judging from past posts on many threads, there are a lot of insecure archers out there.


Two categories...serious shooters and those who don't put in the time to improve. The implication is that if you aren't showing up at the shoots and winning that you aren't a "serious shooter", have chosen not to excel and you aren't any good. Sounds pretty elitists to me.

jealousy of the champions? That's funny. I'm a little jealous of those who have convenient access to good hunting, especially since my hunting season (the one that I worked all year to get ready for) has pretty much come to nothing and I'm already waiting for next year. For my part, it's not jealousy of champions. It's just a lack of interest. 

Share in a fellow archers glory? What the hell does that even mean? Glory? I don't get it. I shoot because I like to shoot and I hunt because I like to hunt. I do it for myself and there's no "glory" about it. It's serious enough...probably too serious in my case but "glory" is irrelevant. It's good if I hit the target and that's all the glory there needs to be. The fact that somebody like stone says that I couldn't have hit the target because I shoot behind my barn in Indiana doesn't really change anything though it does come across as a bit "elitist". LOL

ok, enough of what he said. My work is where I go to compete. Public accomplishment and recognition or "glory" counts because it's directly related to which accounts you win and how much cash you bring home. In all honesty, I'm not as interested in that as I once was. I still enjoy the physical and technical aspects of the trade but I've pretty much had my fill of the rest of it.

My archery range or the woods (when I can swing it) is where I go to get away from that. It's just me and the bow. There are no government mandates, I don't have to record everything to be submitted for IRS approval and the goof down the street doesn't get a vote and it's not required that he approve. The idea is to not be seen, heard or noticed. The exact opposite of any quest for glory.

I come here for conversation with other archers, not to pay homage. One nice thing about this place is that nobody gets to hog the podium. That's what makes it conversation. I can see that it bothers some people not to have what they say automatically taken as gospel by all.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

reddogge said:


> Yepper. Also my effective range has gotten shorter as I have gotten older.



Effective range isn't the only thing that gets shorter as we get older.

:embara:

KPC


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Unfortunately - this guy had the "good enough" attitude. Note the heavy aluminum arrow, feather fletch and two blade cut on contact - more than likely a trad hunter did this!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/..._n_4221380.html?view=print&comm_ref=falsessss


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead;106860661 3 said:


> Unfortunately - this guy had the "good enough" attitude. Note the heavy aluminum arrow, feather fletch and two blade cut on contact - more than likely a trad hunter did this!
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/..._4221380.html?view=pri nt&comm_ref=falsessss


As usual, you assume way to much. What makes you think this was a result of a hunter with a *"good enough"* attitude and not the result of a deer with a *"OH S**T"* attitude?






KPC


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ben

Something you have to take into account is your spoiled with ranges and shoots. Out here 3D starts in March and ends in July. I've got one indoor shoot I can goto a year and that's a four hour drive. 

I tried 3D 4 years ago and found I loved it and I happen to be in a place that I can go to national level shoots. I was curious so I went - what I found is I can compete at that level. But if it wasn't for a fat sky miles account I'd still be in my backyard wearing out bag targets. 

I never discount the backyard shooter cause you never ever know. Some of us just might take your quarters ;-) 

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

GEREP said:


> As usual, you assume way to much. What makes you think this was a result of a hunter with a *"good enough"* attitude and not the result of a deer with a *"OH S**T"* attitude?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is your point? Obviously anything can happen when bowhunting, but the more accurate you are the better off you are and th is is why we should all strive to be as accurate as we can and never accept "good enough"


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Guys let's leave out the bs and just discuss things nicely. ..I know it's difficult, but I believe we all can. Please. .

MFG..

Shame on you...lol...lol...lol...If you ever get things straighten out, come on down here next season to hunt..I can show you some nice country to camp and hunt in..

Ken..did you even bother to enlarge that image? I have and have no doubt that it is fake. There is no wayIit's a real unphotoshopped lmage. No blood in on or around the mouth or entry and exit. Not even possible on a live animal. While I know cadavers may not bleed much but anything living will and show some type of distress. .Come on bro..your pretty inteligent..your not actually that gullible are you? Thst big of broadhead going into that area and no blood or distress...

FWIW.I would say that this is just another person who is really against bow hunting..A deer wounded like this in a residential as area and no sign of it from fish&game or any other neighbors...please...give me a break. I don't buy any of it at all. .This has nothing to do with being accurate or excepting if one is good enough. .This image is a means to disparage bowhunting..

BTW Ken..it doesn't hurt to be more accurate. .it's just that some people don't need to be as accurate and as good as you are to be successful at hunting..We all can't be champions..

See..it doesn't take much to to be civil. .even when we don't agree..

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Unfortunately - this guy had the "good enough" attitude. Note the heavy aluminum arrow, feather fletch and two blade cut on contact - more than likely a trad hunter did this!
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/..._n_4221380.html?view=print&comm_ref=falsessss


HUGE ASSUMPTION based on a Psychic Friends Network type attitude!!!

How in the world can anyone jump to the conclusion and know exactly what this archer's attitude is or was and exactly what happened based on just a photo?

Ray :shade:


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

> No one has a right to put others down because of their skill level regardless of who they are


Sorry, I don't agree. I am a hunter and target archer. One thing I hate is hunting archers that over extend their shooting ability and wound more than they kill cleanly---all because they can't hit the broadside of a barn with a bow and they don't have the respect for the animal to stick with a rifle like maybe they should. If you want to flip that and call me a elitist or say I'm insulting another archer or don't have the right to put those kind of people down then you need to re-evaluate your thinking in my book.



> Unfortunately - this guy had the "good enough" attitude. Note the heavy aluminum arrow, feather fletch and two blade cut on contact - more than likely a trad hunter did this!
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1..._ref=falsessss


Perfect example-------------- Good find Sharp.

So, in short, if you drive like you shoot and it's not very good you shouldn't be behind the wheel. I don't care about someones feelings when they are out wounding animals and letting them suffer for no other reason than they can't get better at shooting an arrow because they don't want to put in the time. And I don't have to be a top tier shooter to make sense of what I just said. It's just morals and unfortunately there are some hunters out there that don't have any. I understand having an accident from time to time by making a lousy shot but, to increase the odds of those wounds by not making yourself a better archer by intensionally not practicing or thinking your "good enough" is silly. And, it's the kind of shots like in the article above that get discovered that give archers a bad name and adds fuel to the fire for anyone making a case against our hunting seasons or our sport. And while I'm at it, I think people who take pictures of their kills and leave the arrows in the animals for all to see without taking the time to remove the arrow, wipe up some blood, and put the tounge back in the animals mouth do no service to their fellow hunters. None of this has anything to do with some archers making therselves out to be an "elitist" as you call it, to put themselves above someone else. It's all about a moral obligation to simply try and do things the right way. So I guess I'm an elitist or a groupie eh? Whatever. One thing I know for sure is the guy that was the subject matter concerning all the "groupie" quotes always tries to do things the right way and that is why I have so much respect for him. So there ya have it, I'm an elitist groupie. At least I can restrain myself from taking a shot I don't think I'm capable of making. The upside is, I am capable of making most of those shots because I practice to improve every time I shoot. I'm not just out launching ICBM missles in the air hoping that if I launch enough of them I'm bound to hit something sooner or later.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> I am sorry, but at no time here did I just single out the top tier finger shooters,so I have no clue where that is coming from but it is real easy to see who are downing others..
> 
> Secondly, I do give credit where credit is due, but I refuse to go along with some of the cap some of these top shooters here say. Should they be called what they appear to be. .yes..elitist. .Anyone who chooses to put someone else down just because it somehow raises their own self interest is a elitist.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Instead of putting someone down for their lack of accuracy or an accuracy level that doesn't seem to meet our standards...we should lead by example and encourage others to become better.

Now if I hear an archer talking about wounding allot of deer and I see their skill level is severely lacking...I'll call 'em out and tell them they really need to improve and what they can do to improve...BUT...you'll NEVER hear me putting down a whole group of archers based on what or how they choose to shoot as someone with prejudices and insecurities will do...unless they need a dose of their own medicine :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> What is your point? Obviously anything can happen when bowhunting, but the more accurate you are the better off you are and th is is why we should all strive to be as accurate as we can and never accept "good enough"


My point is very simple. Nobody is arguing the fact that we all strive to be as accurate as we can be. But, by virtue of the fact that we admit that we *could* be better, and that we *want* to be better, *AND* we go hunting anyway, we are all accepting a level that we determine is "good enough" to hunt.

I know you will never bring yourself to say that, but it simply cannot be disputed. If we all didn't accept "good enough" for hunting, none of us would ever go hunting until we were convinced we were perfect.

The point of my the video is also very simple. Had an Olympic gold medalist taken the same shot on the same deer, the result would have been the same. The arrow went exactly where intended, but unlike foam and paper, the target didn't stay in one place. I, (or you) have absolutely *no way* of knowing the shooting ability of the hunter that wounded the deer in the link you provided.

KPC


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ben
> 
> Something you have to take into account is your spoiled with ranges and shoots. Out here 3D starts in March and ends in July. I've got one indoor shoot I can goto a year and that's a four hour drive.
> 
> ...


Matt, for some reason you have gotten caught up in the stupidity of some of the previous posters. Go back and read what I posted and tell me how in the hell that could be construed as elitist. Also, some of the more insecure here are just waiting for a contrarian post so they can jump on with that poster thinking there is support there for their garbage.Sheesh.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> As usual, you assume way to much. What makes you think this was a result of a hunter with a *"good enough"* attitude and not the result of a deer with a *"OH S**T"* attitude[/video]
> 
> KPC


Well, if you had bothered to read what the person who made the video and was there with her posted, you would get the picture that goes with the video. It was her new beginner bow and her first time to ever shoot at a deer. He backed her up with she could slap some x"s before she went out, but that could be at 10 or 20, who knows, not impossible with a little practice on a blue face target in short order. But, a cursory practice through a 3D field with unmarked rubber deer at unmarked distances in the woods would have been a better metric as to her wound rate on an animal. There's no way anyone can say they can tell where that arrow "would have gone" if the deer had not moved - come on - that's just a bunch of armchair archery.

He further states that she is considering going crossbow now.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Instead of putting someone down for their lack of accuracy or an accuracy level that doesn't seem to meet our standards...we should lead by example and encourage others to become better.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Unfortunately Ray...there are people here that act like jerks and ljust love to be rude. They are full of false pride for becoming who & what they are and won't hesitate to tell you that. Giving them a taste of their own medicine is like water off a ducks back..It does no good to even try...Yet some of these fine folks wonder and complain why they get no respect..

Mac


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Plus 1 GapMaster, Mac11700, BlackWolf, Kegan.....

Has any hunter stated here that they are good enough and they don't care to be a better shot???


A hunters practice may be different then a target shooters but the goal is the same, being as accurate as possible at their hunting range, weather it's 5yards or 60yards.

Maybe Im wrong, but any hunter wants to be a better shot and not just fling arrows in the hope they can hit the critter someplace. I'm using the term "hunter" as in someone that has some skills(shooting a Bow, woodsmanship, tracking) and ethics about what they are attempting to do... 

Kill a critter as quickly as their gear allows...

. Saying that hunters don't have discipline when it comes to their shooting is false, in fact I would go so far as to say a lot of hunters have more discipline then a target shooter because of the out-come of a poor shot.

I respect those that can put arrows in the center of the target all day long, the skill and dedication to do that is beyond some, Congrats.

I also respect a hunter that knows when and when not to take a shot at critters, Congrats.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> I am sorry, but at no time here did I just single out the top tier finger shooters,so I have no clue where that is coming from but it is real easy to see who are downing others..
> 
> Secondly, I do give credit where credit is due, but I refuse to go along with some of the cap some of these top shooters here say. Should they be called what they appear to be. .yes..elitist. .Anyone who chooses to put someone else down just because it somehow raises their own self interest is a elitist.
> 
> ...


Mac, Yes sir, you did, in post#68. Show me where, in my post, I was downing others for their shooting ability. There are posters on here who can't escape their own insecurities and automatically assume that anything coming from the mouths of certain people is a put down of others. Personally, I don't care how insecure these posters are, that is their own cross to bear, but I refuse to give credence to those who can't hit the broadside of a barn, but want to put down those who can. Gapmaster, you are right on in your observations.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

1shot1 said:


> Has any hunter stated here that they are good enough and they don't care to be a better shot???
> 
> 
> A hunters practice may be different then a target shooters but the goal is the same, being as accurate as possible at their hunting range, weather it's 5yards or 60yards.
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Giving them a taste of their own medicine is like water off a ducks back..It does no good to even try...Yet some of these fine folks wonder and complain why they get no respect


I agree...BUT...every now and than...it can be a little entertaining to watch their reactions :wink: but I only do it with certain people who just go on and on about how much better they are than everyone else while putting others down because they don't meet their standards or follow the same path as they do.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Well, if you had bothered to read what the person who made the video and was there with her posted, you would get the picture that goes with the video. It was her new beginner bow and her first time to ever shoot at a deer. He backed her up with she could slap some x"s before she went out, but that could be at 10 or 20, who knows, not impossible with a little practice on a blue face target in short order. But, a cursory walk through a 3D field with unmarked rubber deer in the woods would have been a better metric as to her wound rate on an animal.
> 
> He further state that she is considering going crossbow now.


Ok...I stand corrected. ..you're not a hunter at heart and here I was giving you the benefits of the doubts too...sigh..

Regardless of what was said..bow choices. ...speed of the arrow..the deer ducked the shot..No paper or foam target would have prepared her for that. .it can't. .I've had this happen to me a few times when I was starting out..

Stop trying to find a fault with the shooter here..it's a all to common happening. 

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> I tried 3D 4 years ago and found I loved it and I happen to be in a place that I can go to national level shoots. I was curious so I went - what I found is I can compete at that level. But if it wasn't for a fat sky miles account I'd still be in my backyard wearing out bag targets.
> 
> I never discount the backyard shooter cause you never ever know. Some of us just might take your quarters ;-)


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Stop trying to find a fault with the shooter here.


Yep. I'd ask, just what did she do wrong?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Unfortunately Ray...there are people here that act like jerks and ljust love to be rude. They are full of false pride for becoming who & what they are and won't hesitate to tell you that. Giving them a taste of their own medicine is like water off a ducks back..It does no good to even try...Yet some of these fine folks wonder and complain why they get no respect..
> 
> Mac


Again, poor assumptions and insecurity. I could care less whether I have your respect or not, it won't impact my life one way or the other. And , of course, insecure people like yourself think that my post was all about me. I was actually referencing the post where Larry Yien was skewered a few weeks back, and the people who showed their respect for him were accused of being "groupies" and "hero worshipers. The thing is, I never thought of myself as an elitist, but I like the sound of that term, and without realizing it, you insecure types have paid me a backhanded compliment by putting me in an elite group.lol


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Mac, Yes sir, you did, in post#68. Show me where, in my post, I was downing others for their shooting ability. There are posters on here who can't escape their own insecurities and automatically assume that anything coming from the mouths of certain people is a put down of others. Personally, I don't care how insecure these posters are, that is their own cross to bear, but I refuse to give credence to those who can't hit the broadside of a barn, but want to put down those who can. Gapmaster, you are right on in your observations.


No sir...that is totally wrong. Go back and read what I said again. I was not saying anything about you on this. .and if you have assumed as much you are mistaken. 

Some people on here have done this. .and some people on here actually believe that the types of shooters who frequently attend these events are what the majority of archers skill sets in this country actually have is laughable. .Assuming that any actual estimation from that small of sampling is ludicrous. 

The phrase old gaurd has been around for decades. .and I have used it before. .but..it is fitting for those guys..because I know exactly how they are. .they hold court and live to put others down and many are indeed poor shooters. .but..for some here..not all are like that..but..some here who happen to be good shooters..do the same exact thing...

If you assume that I was putting you down sir..please read everything I have said. .I have not put anyone one in particular down,and have even said that I have been guilty of putting my own skill sets ahead if others..I have tried to be as civil and polite to you..when discussing this with you. But..if you want to get nasty. .we can do that too..

Insecure. .yeah right. I have no insecurities in my skill set as a archer or as a hunter..I know exactly what I am capable of. .and what I am not...as to referencing Larrys post..go back and read my comments to him on it.I don't think you are meaning me..

.

Mac.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Again, poor assumptions and insecurity. I could care less whether I have your respect or not, it won't impact my life one way or the other. And , of course, insecure people like yourself think that my post was all about me. I was actually referencing the post where Larry Yien was skewered a few weeks back, and the people who showed their respect for him were accused of being "groupies" and "hero worshipers. The thing is, I never thought of myself as an elitist, but I like the sound of that term, and without realizing it, you insecure types have paid me a backhanded compliment by putting me in an elite group.lol


Ya know. .you had my respect up till this..It's a pity your to obstinate to realize that. .


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Unfortunately - this guy had the "good enough" attitude. Note the heavy aluminum arrow, feather fletch and two blade cut on contact - more than likely a trad hunter did this!
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/..._n_4221380.html?view=print&comm_ref=falsessss


Huffington Post? Do you read that trash?

That picture has been all over. I couldn't prove it but I suspect it's photochopped.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Matt, for some reason you have gotten caught up in the stupidity of some of the previous posters. Go back and read what I posted and tell me how in the hell that could be construed as elitist. Also, some of the more insecure here are just waiting for a contrarian post so they can jump on with that poster thinking there is support there for their garbage.Sheesh.


Yep you are right - SORRY - mostly it pisses me off all the shoots you guys get to goto all winter.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Get over it we cant hunt Lions


Matt_Potter said:


> Yep you are right - SORRY - mostly it pisses me off all the shoots you guys get to goto all winter.
> 
> Matt


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Gapmaster said:


> Sorry, I don't agree. I am a hunter and target archer. One thing I hate is hunting archers that over extend their shooting ability and wound more than they kill cleanly---all because they can't hit the broadside of a barn with a bow and they don't have the respect for the animal to stick with a rifle like maybe they should. If you want to flip that and call me a elitist or say I'm insulting another archer or don't have the right to put those kind of people down then you need to re-evaluate your thinking in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While you're free to reference "your book" all you like, I use my own book. My respect for the animal is as a resource. If it were a friend, I wouldn't be shooting at it. I try for a quick efficient kill for the purpose of saving myself a long difficult tracking job. If I wanted to spare the animal suffering, I just wouldn't shoot it.

I think this strange idea of a pleasant death is probably a TV thing. In any case, if somebody were shooting at me, I'd MUCH prefer it to be someone who is a LOUSY shot. The lousier the BETTER! If they're a good shot, you're going to die. What is it the kids say?...duh.

Oh and maybe you haven't notice but there are plenty of lousy drivers on the road AND the state driving test is a JOKE. You don't have to be a good driver or much of a driver at all to pass with flying colors. It's the perfect example of "good enough" and it kills thousands of people every year. You don't hear many people complaining about that though, do you? They just make you wear a seat belt so it's easier to find the body. LOL


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Yep you are right - SORRY - mostly it pisses me off all the shoots you guys get to goto all winter.
> 
> Matt


Funny, when you were posting pictures of shooting in your awesome backyard a few months ago, I was wishing I lived where you do just to be that close to the outdoor world. Too bad we can't have it all.lol


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF said:


> While you're free to reference "your book" all you like, I use my own book. My respect for the animal is as a resource. If it were a friend, I wouldn't be shooting at it. I try for a quick efficient kill for the purpose of saving myself a long difficult tracking job. If I wanted to spare the animal suffering, I just wouldn't shoot it.
> 
> I think this strange idea of a pleasant death is probably a TV thing. In any case, if somebody were shooting at me, I'd MUCH prefer it to be someone who is a LOUSY shot. The lousier the BETTER! If they're a good shot, you're going to die. What is it the kids say?...duh.
> 
> Oh and maybe you haven't notice but there are plenty of lousy drivers on the road AND the state driving test is a JOKE. You don't have to be a good driver or much of a driver at all to pass with flying colors. It's the perfect example of "good enough" and it kills thousands of people every year. You don't hear many people complaining about that though, do you? *They just make you wear a seat belt so it's easier to find the body.* LOL



Agree with every word in this one. 

And that last line………spit up a little of my lunch reading that. :lol:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Get over it we cant hunt Lions


You ain't lion.:wink:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ben
> 
> Something you have to take into account is your spoiled with ranges and shoots. Out here 3D starts in March and ends in July. I've got one indoor shoot I can goto a year and that's a four hour drive.
> 
> ...


3-d is fun. When I lived in the Chicago area I belonged to a club that had a nice range and I never missed a 3-d or jug shoot. The bad part was, I had to be on the range all the time because I didn't have a yard where I could shoot.

As far as I know, there isn't much of anything near where I live now. There's a new(ish) archery shop in town that runs an indoor winter league but there aren't any "trad" shooters. Heck, the don't even all shoot on the same day. You have a week to show up at the range, shoot your match and turn in your score. Where's the fun in that?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> MFG..
> 
> Shame on you...lol...lol...lol...If you ever get things straighten out, come on down here next season to hunt..I can show you some nice country to camp and hunt in..
> 
> ...


I might take you up on that some time but I have some nice hunting a few hours away. The problem is arranging things so I can spend enough time there to hunt it.

Gun season opens next week and that puts a real damper on public land bow hunting...and it'll be getting COLD. If things settle down a bit, I'm thinking of treating myself to one of Kegan's new bows and a trip to someplace warm (er) for a pig hunt or something. Deer seasons will be winding down by then but I think you can shoot pigs pretty much all year in some states.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> Get over it we cant hunt Lions












3 weeks baby


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

1shot1 said:


> Plus 1 GapMaster, Mac11700, BlackWolf, Kegan.....
> 
> Has any hunter stated here that they are good enough and they don't care to be a better shot???
> 
> ...


Hunters are like everybody else. Some hunters take it to a much higher level than others and some just do it casually...like I golf. I golf once or twice every eight or ten years. I'm not very good but I don't really care. It's just a social thing. I can drink beer and visit on the golf course as well as I can anyplace else. I've known deer hunters who enjoy deer camp. Though they rarely miss a year at deer camp, they don't really care about hunting or shooting very much. The state still collects their fee.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

MAC 11700 said:


> A more practical approach to discussing what accuracy is needed in a hunting situations should first take into account the size of the kill zone a person actually needs to be able to hit,and the yardages they can consistently place their arrows into it . While it is nice to see small groups to be able to judge improvement, in the hunting world we must know exactly where the kill zone is, and the size of it.We must always be prepared for the animal to move,even if it doesn't every time. Group size is for bragging rights, , clean kills are what we dtrive for in hunting. While we all learn to be more accurate by shooting repetitive shots at something, very seldom will we be able to on a live animal, so we have to prepare for 1 shot that matters, not a group of arrows.
> Mac


Mac
I would like to comment on your original post, particularly the paragraph I quoted above.

Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me what you're really defining here is precision, as opposed to accuracy. Do not the two go hand and hand? Can one really be that precise without being accurate? All that aside, you're still defining a pretty high level of shooting. If being able to achieve this level of precision every time one pursues game is the standard, then this begs the questions: How do I get to that level? How do I know when I'm there? If there is no "objective" criteria then aren't you really just saying that each and everyone of us that chooses to pursue game must shoot within are own ethical abilities? Isn't that a given?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

pokynojoe said:


> Mac
> I would like to comment on your original post, particularly the paragraph I quoted above.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me what you're really defining here is precision, as opposed to accuracy. Do not the two go hand and hand? Can one really be that precise without being accurate? All that aside, you're still defining a pretty high level of shooting. If being able to achieve this level of precision every time one pursues game is the standard, then this begs the questions: How do I get to that level? How do I know when I'm there? If there is no "objective" criteria then aren't you really just saying that each and everyone of us that chooses to pursue game must shoot within are own ethical abilities? Isn't that a given?


Accuracy and precision are two different things but they're best discussed in terms of capability.

First the technical side and then the practical. Accuracy is basically how close to the set point (target) a process is. Precision is the repeatability. In terms of shooting you're accurate if the center of your group is on target. You're precise if the group is small.

When we look at the combination in relation to a given target we can describe the capability...i.e. the likelihood or probability of hitting a specific target.

We see the practical application of this every day and in almost every aspect of our lives if we know what to look for. Lets look at hunting. My shooting could be better. I intend that it will improve. I shoot almost every day, all year and in all weather. Many day, I shoot all day. Now hunting season approaches and I'm still not shooting perfect 300's with 60 x. I could just stay on the range and keep working on getting 60 'X's, or, I can decide that my shooting is "good enough" and go work on some other hunting stuff like scouting, studying the game I'm hunting, putting up stands etc. If I am unwilling to except something less that "perfection" in my shooting (at least temporarily), I won't ever have time to do any hunting.

What we're talking about is performance requirements. Who here buys the "best car", the "best" clothes or the best house? Most of us buy the best fit for our needs and means. Likewise, when you build a window switch for a $12K car, you don't build the switch to last 50 billion cycles and 1000 years. That's because the $1 switch would then cost $1000,000 (I'm making up numbers) and there wouldn't be any $12K car.

The point is that the performance requirements (what is good enough?) need to be realistic. It's entirely possible that a hunter could have a very high capability in regard to shooting game (even six sigma capability to use another popular buzz word) without being good enough to win any competition. I said it's possible. It's not something that I've done any analysis on. To win a competition, it's required that you out perform all other shooters. Every time another shooter gets better, you have to get better to win. A deer's lungs stay pretty much the same size. If the probability that a hunter can hit them is acceptable, then his/her shooting IS good enough. Keep in mind that shooting is improved by utilizing time and other resources so some other critical aspect my suffer. If you don't get in range of a deer with a clear shot, shooting capability IS a MOOT point. You may as well just leave the bow at home...or sell it, because it's no good to the hunter.

Even where maximizing capability is the goal (and it isn't for all hunters), it's a matter of making the best use of resources and, time, is a limited resource.

Bottom line is that there is such a thing as "good enough" (for the current application). Anybody that says otherwise, demonstrably, doesn't know what they're talking about...or they're just telling fibs.


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Wow MGF... Spot on, concise and clear... Thank You...


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

MGF said:


> Bottom line is that there is such a thing as "good enough" (for the current application). Anybody that says otherwise, demonstrably, doesn't know what they're talking about...or they're just telling fibs.


I suspect the latter is the case.

KPC


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

GEREP said:


> I suspect the latter is the case.
> 
> KPC


I don't know. I'd like to think it's mostly a difference in perspective and terminology. We probably have some elitism going on (maybe on both sides) but I don't think it's the general case.

My experience is that people tend to think that their situation is similar to the next guy's. Since he's in the same boat, he should be sail the same way. It's just not always true. Hence the saying "Whatever floats your boat." LOL


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> The point is that the performance requirements (what is good enough?) need to be realistic. It's entirely possible that a hunter could have a very high capability in regard to shooting game (even six sigma capability to use another popular buzz word) without being good enough to win any competition. I said it's possible. It's not something that I've done any analysis on. To win a competition, it's required that you out perform all other shooters. Every time another shooter gets better, you have to get better to win. A deer's lungs stay pretty much the same size. If the probability that a hunter can hit them is acceptable, then his/her shooting IS good enough. Keep in mind that shooting is improved by utilizing time and other resources so some other critical aspect my suffer. If you don't get in range of a deer with a clear shot, shooting capability IS a MOOT point. You may as well just leave the bow at home...or sell it, because it's no good to the hunter.
> 
> Even where maximizing capability is the goal (and it isn't for all hunters), it's a matter of making the best use of resources and, time, is a limited resource.
> 
> Bottom line is that there is such a thing as "good enough" (for the current application). Anybody that says otherwise, demonstrably, doesn't know what they're talking about...or they're just telling fibs.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

MGF
Thank you very much for your cogent reply. I think I got it.

So using an admittedly very simple example; if I have five arrows and I put one in the bullseye, I've demonstrated a level of accuracy. If I put all five arrows in the bullseye, then I've demonstrated a level of precision. Correct?

If this is so, then in a typical situation, a hunter need only be concerned with being as accurate as he possibly can be, and needn't concern himself so much with precision. Whereas someone shooting in a tournament that requires multiple arrows would need to be concerned with both accuracy and precision in order to achieve the highest score they can. Right?

In short, they both need to be accurate, but the target shooter also needs to be precise...I think...maybe...

I just read what I wrote, I think I need to just click on that "French surprise" thing that keeps popping up ! 

Thanks again.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

pokynojoe said:


> Mac
> I would like to comment on your original post, particularly the paragraph I quoted above.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me what you're really defining here is precision, as opposed to accuracy. Do not the two go hand and hand? Can one really be that precise without being accurate? All that aside, you're still defining a pretty high level of shooting. If being able to achieve this level of precision every time one pursues game is the standard, then this begs the questions: How do I get to that level? How do I know when I'm there? If there is no "objective" criteria then aren't you really just saying that each and everyone of us that chooses to pursue game must shoot within are own ethical abilities? Isn't that a given?


MFG's post is .....well. ..damn near perfect. 

I can only add a little bit more to it

Ethics and just how personal they are. I would never berate someone, with the exception of myself, for not living up to mine.

Each of us must , as the well known saying goes , " To they own self be true " This is for every aspect of hunting..

Precision is to me , ,being able to split a single hair on a animal you are shooting at ...at will.....or the bullseye at will..That's my perception of the words meaning in what is being discussed here.

Good enough..means being able to do whatever is needed to make a killing shot consistently. 

There is a much larger target area with the latter that the arrow can strike and still be acceptable provided the animal lets you.

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

pokynojoe said:


> MGF
> Thank you very much for your cogent reply. I think I got it.
> 
> So using an admittedly very simple example; if I have five arrows and I put one in the bullseye, I've demonstrated a level of accuracy. If I put all five arrows in the bullseye, then I've demonstrated a level of precision. Correct?
> ...


Close. One arrow could be an accident. Accuracy still really needs to based on a group or some number of shots. Accuracy and precision just refer to different characteristics of the group.

The relevant question for a hunter is "What is the probability that I'll hit the target (kill zone)". The question for the competitive archer is "What's the probability that I'll hit the target more often than the competition?".

Both should be concerned with accuracy and precision. The only thing that changes is the bench mark. To kill a deer I have to hit the kill zone. To beat you in competition, I have to outshoot you. See? It's just a potential difference in performance requirements.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> MFG's post is .....well. ..damn near perfect.
> 
> I can only add a little bit more to it
> 
> ...


Close enough for government work. LOL

But yes, the bottom line is having some good reason to believe that you can do what you set out to do.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

MGF said:


> Close enough for government work. LOL


Sorry but there is no such thing as *close enough...*



KPC


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - fibbing or stupid because I believe that we should never settle for "good enough" and should always strive to be better. Glad this forum is filled with overachievers. Everyone can do what they want, I never accept "good enough" and always strive to be better and always will. This does not mean that I necessarily get any better, but I keep trying.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Not overachievers, just realists.

KPC


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - fibbing or stupid because I believe that we should never settle for "good enough" and should always strive to be better. Glad this forum is filled with overachievers. Everyone can do what they want, I never accept "good enough" and always strive to be better and always will. This does not mean that I necessarily get any better, but I keep trying.


There are those who meet challenges and shy away, there are those who meet challenges and face them head on. Your attitude is what makes you a consistent top tier archer and I feel the same way.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Most EVERY bowhunter who takes to the field to pursue an animal believes they are a 'good enough' archer to hunt...but very few accept that position as an end and will continue to try and improve.

ANY bowhunter who claims they are not a 'good enough' archer yet they go into the woods to try and kill an animal makes me really question their decision.

Why would a bowhunter who thinks they are not a 'good enough' archer...still try to hunt and kill an animal..if they believe their archery skills truly aren't 'good enough'?

Ray :shade:


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Setting aside everyone's definition of "good enough", which apparently means however one wishes to define it. I'm still a little confused, so I took the time to go back and read the various posts. Curiously, it seems to me that everyone is basically saying the same thing, If one takes the time to distill everything that's been said down to the least common denominator. 

For example paraphrasing the paragraph I quoted above in post #107, Mac is basically saying that we should strive to know the kill zone of every animal we hunt, and strive to put every arrow into the kill zone. Is this not the same thing as saying we should strive to put every arrow into the bullseye? Which to me is saying that we should all strive towards the "Ideal", and be the best that we possibly can. I'll agree to that. Aren't ya'll saying the same thing? Or am I being too simplistic and I'm missing something?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - fibbing or stupid because I believe that we should never settle for "good enough" and should always strive to be better. Glad this forum is filled with overachievers. Everyone can do what they want, I never accept "good enough" and always strive to be better and always will. This does not mean that I necessarily get any better, but I keep trying.


Very well said.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

pokynojoe said:


> Setting aside everyone's definition of "good enough", which apparently means however one wishes to define it. I'm still a little confused, so I took the time to go back and read the various posts. Curiously, it seems to me that everyone is basically saying the same thing, If one takes the time to distill everything that's been said down to the least common denominator.
> 
> For example paraphrasing the paragraph I quoted above in post #107, Mac is basically saying that we should strive to know the kill zone of every animal we hunt, and strive to put every arrow into the kill zone. Is this not the same thing as saying we should strive to put every arrow into the bullseye? Which to me is saying that we should all strive towards the "Ideal", and be the best that we possibly can. I'll agree to that. Aren't ya'll saying the same thing? Or am I being too simplistic and I'm missing something?



:icon_1_lol: Pretty much, depending on how ya look at it. It's all relative.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

pokynojoe said:


> Is this not the same thing as saying we should strive to put every arrow into the bullseye? Which to me is saying that we should all strive towards the "Ideal", and be the best that we possibly can. Aren't ya'll saying the same thing? Or am I being too simplistic and I'm missing something?


No...you aren't missing anything...except maybe how some people refuse to see other people's points of view as being valid or accurate. They are sooo focused on trying to prove themselves right and defending it...they miss exactly what you and many others here already realize.

Ray :shade:


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## J-in-AK (Oct 1, 2013)

i noticed this right when i got on this forum a couple a months ago. accuracy, perfect form, light draw weight...yada yada. most of this doesn't necessarily apply to most hunting situations at all. accuracy is important but killing paper in you backyard at known ranges and standing with great form is a far cry from hunting. usually the shot is kneeling, up or downhill and god knows how you have to hold your bow to get the shot. you almost need a traditional hunting forum seperate from those preaching 30# bows shooting perfect scores...they just don't mix that well as i have seen. accuracy is definately important as is practice..i'm sure some of you on the light bow/perfect score high horse would probably be shaking uncontrollably as a screaming bull elk is 15 yards from you or an angry rutting bull moose and miss your shot anyways...sometimes archery is a little mental as well.


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

J-in-AK said:


> i noticed this right when i got on this forum a couple a months ago. accuracy, perfect form, light draw weight...yada yada. most of this doesn't necessarily apply to most hunting situations at all. accuracy is important but killing paper in you backyard at known ranges and standing with great form is a far cry from hunting. usually the shot is kneeling, up or downhill and god knows how you have to hold your bow to get the shot. you almost need a traditional hunting forum seperate from those preaching 30# bows shooting perfect scores...they just don't mix that well as i have seen. accuracy is definately important as is practice..i'm sure some of you on the light bow/perfect score high horse would probably be shaking uncontrollably as a screaming bull elk is 15 yards from you or an angry rutting bull moose and miss your shot anyways...sometimes archery is a little mental as well.


 Plus 100 J-in-AK... I totaly agree...( And I'm alittle mental also...hehehe)...


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## Benajah (Jul 11, 2013)

Easykeeper said:


> I think we are on the same page Mac, just saying it a little differently. I have no problem with someone who has limited shooting skills hunting, assuming they are congnizant of their limited skills and stay within them in a hunting situation.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think much of people that consciously exceed their skill level even though I will stand up for their right to do so (personal choice). I have actually been reprimanded by an aquaintance for passing on long range shots at deer (rifle at the time). His statement was _"you've got to let fly, you never know, you might hit something"_...I kid you not. Unfortunately that sentiment is not all that uncommon.


Precisely the reason I don't even go into the woods during gun deer season without cowbells, Christmas lights, and a fog horn.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

J-in-AK said:


> i noticed this right when i got on this forum a couple a months ago. accuracy, perfect form, light draw weight...yada yada. most of this doesn't necessarily apply to most hunting situations at all. accuracy is important but killing paper in you backyard at known ranges and standing with great form is a far cry from hunting. usually the shot is kneeling, up or downhill and god knows how you have to hold your bow to get the shot. you almost need a traditional hunting forum seperate from those preaching 30# bows shooting perfect scores...they just don't mix that well as i have seen. accuracy is definately important as is practice..i'm sure some of you on the light bow/perfect score high horse would probably be shaking uncontrollably as a screaming bull elk is 15 yards from you or an angry rutting bull moose and miss your shot anyways...sometimes archery is a little mental as well.


I don't know my deer hunting friends shoot paper during the summer months, shoot 3D leagues as well. When they are not doing that they are out were they hunt getting shooting lanes set up and basically doing what ever they can do to insure a good clean kill. My next door neighbor who fills his tags year after year tells me he does not put himself into situations were he has to contort to get a shoot off. Like he says perfect way to injure instead of kill. He tells me it is all in the prep/leg work/scouting before the hunt.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

J-in-AK said:


> i noticed this right when i got on this forum a couple a months ago. accuracy, perfect form, light draw weight...yada yada. most of this doesn't necessarily apply to most hunting situations at all. accuracy is important but killing paper in you backyard at known ranges and standing with great form is a far cry from hunting. usually the shot is kneeling, up or downhill and god knows how you have to hold your bow to get the shot. you almost need a traditional hunting forum seperate from those preaching 30# bows shooting perfect scores...they just don't mix that well as i have seen. accuracy is definately important as is practice..i'm sure some of you on the light bow/perfect score high horse would probably be shaking uncontrollably as a screaming bull elk is 15 yards from you or an angry rutting bull moose and miss your shot anyways...sometimes archery is a little mental as well.


This is the kind of target archery I do: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUl5Ab5abcg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyyqq6mg4yE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wWiI4O-Rts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-vwgJMBB8A


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh -and btw - that is the same bow that I hunt with


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Arron said:


> I don't know my deer hunting friends shoot paper during the summer months, shoot 3D leagues as well. When they are not doing that they are out were they hunt getting shooting lanes set up and basically doing what ever they can do to insure a good clean kill. My next door neighbor who fills his tags year after year tells me he does not put himself into situations were he has to contort to get a shoot off. Like he says perfect way to injure instead of kill. He tells me it is all in the prep/leg work/scouting before the hunt.


You have a smart neighbor. I believe your statement probably fits most of us. Sure, there are some who don't hunt and some who don't shoot competition, but for the most part it seems that a large portion of the forum participants do some of both. I would say they use a different set of standards for each situation without even noticing. I would be willing to bet that there a few who make sure to use perfect form and careful aim when shooting paper or foam targets and then when an animal shows up forget all about it. Probably don't shoot much different from me or you at that point. But, to admit it would take all the fun out of the argument, can't have that.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

In my *opinion* .... Hunting is different than shooting in almost every way possible. If you hunt and are serious about it, you perfect woodsmanship skills. This focuses you on the hunt. You practice in field with roving exercises and the like in full dress.... this too focuses you on the hunt. You develop an equipment list that meets your style of hunting.... quiet shoes for stalking, tree stands, blinds and ambush sites for waiting, and focuses you on hunting. Learning to hunt takes time, dedication and perseverance and a mindset to overcome the disappointments as learning experiences. Learning to hunt is a responsibility and that focuses you on the hunt.

Woodsmanship enhances your abilities and focuses you on the hunt... and *in my opinion* this is key to being successful as a hunter. Accuracy is important, but an x ring isn't... getting close enough to make a responsible shot, *is in my opinion* the objective of woodsmanship and our focus on the game we hunt. Like all shooting sports, practice is important and as has been mentioned earlier can spell the difference between a hit, miss or a wound... especially if you don't practice in your hunting threads as you'd hunt..... backpacks, fanny packs, bulky clothing probably if you hunt in cold climes..... and on that note, even here in Hawaii, you can find yourself unprepared for the cold sometimes and can affect your hunt. 

Hunting *in my opinion*, is a package deal and essentially a process that needs all parts functioning to be responsibly in the field. Practice, practice, practice... we hear it all the time, but many of us don't really practice in the field... but we all should. Some folks don't feel that if we are traditional we should use all of the tools that are available to us, even if we need them. It doesn't take away from your hunt, and if anything, in my opinion, shows your ethics. We owe it to ourselves and to the game we hunt to keep the odds in our favor, and if you feel that you wish to use a range finder do it... sights... do it.... Hunting is hunting, it isn't a competition except of your skills against yourself.


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Plus100 Rattus58...

Itbeso... Really???

TwistedMetall...???


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I would think that at some point?...one MUST begin to consider them self as "good enough"...or?...suffer a lack of confidence...cause if you push "never good enough" too far?...it can result in TP...don't ask me how I know

L8R, Bill


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> I would think that at some point?...one MUST begin to consider them self as "good enough"...


This doesn't happen very often Jinks, but I agree. You are 100% correct.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Serious question for Sharpbroadhead (or any of the others that feel that *"good enough"* is never good enough):

Please, *yes* or *no* answers only please.

_*In terms of accuracy, are you as good as you'd like to be, or are you as good as you feel you can be?*_

KPC


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Confidence....In your abilities and equipment. 

Familiarity. In how your equipment performs.

Strength. Both inner to calm yourself before the shot, ,and physical to carry you for the time needed.

Both for targets and for hunting these things are needed to be able to perform. 

Depending on how one hunts, the similarities between target shooting and taking game are close to the same, but there are different types of hunting many folks never try.

Standing in a tree stand 20 feet up in the air,, is far removed from spot & stalking where you are on the ground going to the animal. Both are considered hunting. .but..for the tree stand hunter they can shoot very similar to how the target shoot. For us ground pounders, we are faced with shooting from a variety of positions varied footings and obstructions most tree stand hunters never encounter. 

How we hunt can dictates how we shoot. Do you think this is part of the issues here?

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

GEREP said:


> Serious question for Sharpbroadhead (or any of the others that feel that *"good enough"* is never good enough):
> 
> Please, *yes* or *no* answers only please.
> 
> ...


Absolutely not! - Oh wait - "NO". No I am not as accurate as I would like to be - I would like to hit a dime at any hunting distance with EVERY SHOT. do I feel I am as good as I can be, no. That is the great thing about archery - WE CAN ALWAYS IMPROVE. This is precisely why I say that I will NEVER except "good enough" and will always strive to be better.

When I hunt I limit myself to shots that I am very confident I can make, when I first started hunting those were perfectly broadside 10 -15 yard shots. Today those shots are just about any position of the deer where I can put an arrow into the "basketball" vitals, the range is extended out to 30 yards or so, etc... - but there is ALWAYS room for improvement and hence never "good enough" for me.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Absolutely not! - Oh wait - "NO". No I am not as accurate as I would like to be -


Great, thank you.

Second question...*yes* or *no* only please.

_*Do you hunt?*_

KPC


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

J-in-AK said:


> i noticed this right when i got on this forum a couple a months ago. accuracy, perfect form, light draw weight...yada yada. most of this doesn't necessarily apply to most hunting situations at all. accuracy is important but killing paper in you backyard at known ranges and standing with great form is a far cry from hunting. usually the shot is kneeling, up or downhill and god knows how you have to hold your bow to get the shot. you almost need a traditional hunting forum seperate from those preaching 30# bows shooting perfect scores...they just don't mix that well as i have seen. accuracy is definately important as is practice..i'm sure some of you on the light bow/perfect score high horse would probably be shaking uncontrollably as a screaming bull elk is 15 yards from you or an angry rutting bull moose and miss your shot anyways...sometimes archery is a little mental as well.


I'm not picking a fight, this is entirely sincere: how many animals have you killed with a traditional bow?

I ask because your approach might be working for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. When I started I had red G. Fred Asbell's_ Instincitve Shooting _books and watched his video. I'm sure there are great bits if information in there (as I still believe his ground hunting book is fantastic) but several of the repeated points were: you need to shoot quickly, you need to be able to shoot from any position, and_ hunting and targets are two entirely different worlds_. My shooting was attrocious for a long time because of that mentality, even though I practiced very hard every day with my hunting bow. I missed a lot of deer and other game, and most from a standing, nearly perfect shooting position. 

I eventually got sick of missing critters and wanted venison. So I started over with a target approach. Started shooting paper to keep track of my shooting, and to see how I stacked up. I started shooting 3D to practice distance estimation on animal targets. I started dropping in draw weight and holding longer to bolster and control and confidence in the shot. Not long after that, I started actually killing critters- pretty regularly now. Since then I've learned even more about shooting, and I take special note of Rick Welch's approach. A several time IBO (that's target shooting) champion, the man has killed a _lot_ of critters. He maintains that if you can't get your shoulders in the same position and keep a consistent anchor and draw length, you're not going to make a good shot and shouldn't take it. In other words, if you can't use consistent form you don't shoot. Works really well for him, and it's worked really well for me too. 

Though the two pursuits have their differences, they also have a lot of similiarities. I have personally seen only a few people start with a heavier hunting bow that I would consider competent archers/bowhunters, and at least one of them spent time with a much lighter bow- and he shoots targets too. If your approach is working for you, that's fantastic. However, it's not a widely accepted approach because for most people it DOESN'T work.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

are you serious - do you even read my answers


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

GEREP said:


> _*Do you hunt?*_





BLACK WOLF said:


> Why would a bowhunter who thinks they are not a 'good enough' archer...still try to hunt and kill an animal..if they believe their archery skills truly aren't 'good enough'?


Hmmmmm...looking forward to some of these answers :wink:

I already know sharp hunts.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

are you serious - do you even read my answers? KPC, obviously your only goal in this is to argue, for if you read the entire answer I gave to your question and several of my other posts that you insist on debating with - you would not ask if I hunt!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

BlackWolf - again - i answered both those questions in my posts, perhaps if they were read in an effort to understand what is being said, rather than to find something to argue with - you would not have to ask questions that have been answered numerous times.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Absolutely not! - Oh wait - "NO". No I am not as accurate as I would like to be - I would like to hit a dime at any hunting distance with EVERY SHOT. do I feel I am as good as I can be, no. That is the great thing about archery - WE CAN ALWAYS IMPROVE. This is precisely why I say that I will NEVER except "good enough" and will always strive to be better.
> 
> *When I hunt I limit myself to shots that I am very confident I can make, when I first started hunting those were perfectly broadside 10 -15 yard shots. Today those shots are just about any position of the deer where I can put an arrow into the "basketball" vitals, the range is extended out to 30 yards or so, etc... - but there is ALWAYS room for improvement and hence never "good enough" for me*.


For those who like to skim posts just to argue. Do I hunt - ummmmm READ THE POST. Would a bowhunter who does not feel he is "good enough" hunt - ummmm READ THE POST.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I think the questions need to be worded...

Do you think you're 'good enough' to hunt?

Do you think you're 'good enough' and have no reason to improve?

They are simply...Yes or No questions. 

2 different PERSPECTIVES with possibly 2 DIFFERENT answers.

Ray :shade:


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Ken
With all due respect, I don't think anyone is questioning your conviction, frankly your constantly striving to be the best you can, and never accepting the status quo is a very admirable quality, and one I think we all agree with.

The question I think that is being asked is: In any activity one has to have a certainly level of competency to engage in it, however, if in your mind one can never be "good enough", then at what point is one able to engage in the activity? If one can never be "good enough" then doesn't it follow that one will never be able to engage in the activity? 

If you'll indulge me a little further, or are you really saying that at some point one may have reached a point where they are capable or "good enough" to participate, however, this should never be accepted as the standard and the individual should continue to strive towards the "Ideal"? At the risk of putting words in your mouth, I think this is what you are really saying. If not, then I apologize for being presumptuous.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> are you serious - do you even read my answers


Sure I do. I'm wondering however if YOU read what you write. I just wanted to break it down, with your own words, to show patently foolish some of your statements are.

So let's review here.

You say that in terms of accuracy, you are not as good as you'd like to be, or as good as you could be.

Even so, you choose to hunt anyway...within certain parameters.

That can only mean one thing...you feel you are *"good enough"* to hunt...within those parameters.

Ironically, that's what some of us have been saying all along, yet you continue to vehemently deny that being *"good enough"* to hunt is ever acceptable.

You said it yourself...



sharpbroadhead said:


> When I hunt I limit myself to shots that I am very confident I can make, when I first started hunting those were perfectly broadside 10 -15 yard shots. Today those shots are just about any position of the deer where I can put an arrow into the "basketball" vitals, the range is extended out to 30 yards or so, etc...


*"Good enough"* used to be limited to 10 or 15 yards broadside, now *"good enough"* is 30 yards at a target the size of a basketball. 

Thank you so much of making my point. If "good enough" was never good enough to hunt, nobody would EVER loose an arrow on an animal. Having said that, even when good enough is good enough, even when you are 100% confident in your abilities within certain parameters, the deer have a say in what ULTIMTELY either ends well (in the hunters eyes) or goes HORRIBLY wrong.

KPC


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> Since then I've learned even more about shooting, and I take special note of Rick Welch's approach. A several time IBO (that's target shooting) champion, the man has killed a _lot_ of critters. He maintains that if you can't get your shoulders in the same position and keep a consistent anchor and draw length, you're not going to make a good shot and shouldn't take it. In other words, if you can't use consistent form you don't shoot. Works really well for him, and it's worked really well for me too.


I struggled with some of the "hunting shots". My final solution was to just stop doing it trying those shots. The reason I can't group well when shooting almost straight down is because I'm not physically able to get lined up. I might be sitting or kneeling but still try to get "good form" from the waist up. Up/down hill shots are limited to how far I can bend at the waist.

I practice form and execution on my range. I also use paper to measure my shooting. When I'm in the field, I intend to shoot the same way. Sans excitement or whatever, there really shouldn't be any surprises.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I think the questions need to be worded...
> 
> Do you think you're 'good enough' to hunt?
> 
> ...


That's the whole point Ray. Just last night I had a decent 8 point within 20 yards, unaware that I was there. I was ready but I didn't feel comfortable with the shot and the opportunity quickly evaporated as they often do this time of year when bucks are on the move. 

Here's the deal. I have been unable to shoot much all year due to a herniated disk in my neck, therefore my confidence level is not the highest right now. Normally, anything within 20 yards I feel is a slam dunk but this time, it just didn't feel good so instead of the opportunity getting better, it went poof. I'm OK with that because the desire to put him on the ground wasn't as strong as not wanting to make a bad shot.

The key, in my opinion, is the willingness to be honest with ourselves as to what actually is "good enough" within certain parameters, and if we are totally honest with ourselves we will realize that those parameters can change on a daily basis. Even then, things sometimes don't go as planned and a deer can end up with a broadhead through the snout. Sad but true.

KPC


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MGF said:


> I struggled with some of the "hunting shots". My final solution was to just stop doing it trying those shots. The reason I can't group well when shooting almost straight down is because I'm not physically able to get lined up. I might be sitting or kneeling but still try to get "good form" from the waist up. Up/down hill shots are limited to how far I can bend at the waist.
> 
> I practice form and execution on my range. I also use paper to measure my shooting. When I'm in the field, I intend to shoot the same way. Sans excitement or whatever, there really shouldn't be any surprises.


I found the same thing, out of a stand I have a limit as to how close I can be because I can only bend so far forward. Rick suggest shooting with the bow vertically with the lower limb in front of your hips/legs. It helps, but I can still only bend so far.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

kegan said:


> I'm not picking a fight, this is entirely sincere: how many animals have you killed with a traditional bow?
> 
> I ask because your approach might be working for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. When I started I had red G. Fred Asbell's_ Instincitve Shooting _books and watched his video. I'm sure there are great bits if information in there (as I still believe his ground hunting book is fantastic) but several of the repeated points were: you need to shoot quickly, you need to be able to shoot from any position, and_ hunting and targets are two entirely different worlds_. My shooting was attrocious for a long time because of that mentality, even though I practiced very hard every day with my hunting bow. I missed a lot of deer and other game, and most from a standing, nearly perfect shooting position.
> 
> ...


Kegan...let me preface this by asking that we keep a "Different Strokes for Different Folks" mentality here but check this out...

I still have mixed emotions (if not flat out "reservations") of what you state above....and here's why...

Even though in my wheelbow days I was a flat out, straight up "form shooter" and a dang good well accomplished one?..I guess I never really took stickbows seriously...(but had the utmost admiration for the archers who did and could)...but for most of my adult years always had one laying around somewhere...to relax and play with...and?...for the most part?...I now know that I was always over-bowed throughout those years...rarely if ever owning one of less than 50#s...so my way of relaxing and playing with them?...was "snap-shooting" them...always at distances of 20yds and less...then a little over 2 years ago I found these trad forums...thought how cool!...and learned a lot...and got serious about making the transition from over-bowed snap shooter too to a straight up "form-shooter"...dropping a good 20#s worth of bow weight and holding as hard as I aim...but too this day?...there are still two distinct ways I shoot....

1. On the days I'm feeling good?...I shoot by form.

and?...

2. On the days I'm stressed and just want to relax and have some fun?...I shoot by FEEL.

But here's where things are still a bit murky to me...as this is what happened at a local club 3D shoot I attended where A.T. member "Nuclear Longbow" unwitting watched this happen...

NOTE: Whoever set the trad stakes out at this particular ASA shoot was merciless...our first target was a standing deer that big John paced off at 27yds...two of us whiffed it low, one low leg shot and the other an 8...and there wasn't a handful of targets that the stakes were set at less than 20yds...including a 24yd coyote and one Javelina well beyond 20yds.

On the morning round of 15 targets?....I shot "Form"....and scored (4) misses and a boatload of 5's....was so pi$$ed that I almost wrapped it up and went home but?...decided that would be foolish and stayed for lunch and the afternoon round...and since I knew my score was already in the toilet bowl?...I just stayed for the fun of it....said screw form...completely relaxed...and went back to my old ways of "Shooting By Feel" and?...

The afternoon round of 15 targets?....instead of 4 misses?...I had (4) 5's...(which mostly happened up front in the transition)...no misses...and the rest were 8's, 10,s and a couple 12's...with one of the other archers in our group exclaiming...

*"Man!...You're a Back 9 Kinda Guy Aren't You!"*

I laughed and said..."no...I'm a backyard kinda guy!" :laugh:

Now that said?...There's also a 3rd way of shooting that's sort of come about all on it's own here...where both "Form & Feel" have seemly melded together...where I hit just shy of full form?...but spend that last 1/2"-1" snapping it off by Feel...it seems a happy medium between the two and usually results in some of my best groups/sessions...that starts off with solid, well anchored form but leaves just enough "feel/snap-movement" at the end to still let the magic happen.

Dunno if that makes any sense to anyone but...there's still many sessions that I feel good enough to dedicate myself to working hard on form but still those days I just wanna relax and watch feathers fly...but that 3rd way I mention there?...right, wrong or indifferent?...is typically what results in the tightest groups and the most fun...for me. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

GEREP said:


> Ironically, that's what some of us have been saying all along, yet you continue to vehemently deny that being *"good enough"* to hunt is ever acceptable.


That's part of the problem with some people. They will defend their opinions almost blindly rather than admit they were wrong. All it takes is a little effort to TRY and understand where another person's opinion is coming from and ALLOT of these internet debates would be gone.

It's a simple Yes or No question whether a person believes they are 'good enough' to hunt or not.



GEREP said:


> If "good enough" was never good enough to hunt, nobody would EVER loose an arrow on an animal.





GEREP said:


> That's the whole point Ray.


I agree :wink: :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Jinks, I've found that if I focus too much on form my accuracy suffers because I can't focus both on the spot to hit and to doing everything textbook. I focus on engraining form during blank bale, and focus on rhythm and control (beyond the spot) when shooting to hit the spot. 

Just because you're not focusing on it doesn't mean you're not using proper form.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Here's just one example I was actually involved in this year.

I was at the Aspen Archery Range practicing before elk season this year and saw a young man struggling to hit the bag target at 20yrds. I asked him if he was hunting this year and he said, 'Yes '. I personally was shocked that ANYONE would think they were capable of hunting with his obvious lack of shooting skill. I immediately started picturing wounded elk running around...but instead of chastizeing him...I decided to try and help him out because I could tell that with no matter what I would have said...he was going hunting no matter what.

By the time we were done...he was shooting well enough I felt more at ease with his shooting ability.

The point is....some people do need to change their standard of what's truly 'good enough'.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> I'm not picking a fight, this is entirely sincere: how many animals have you killed with a traditional bow?
> 
> I ask because your approach might be working for you, but it doesnt for everyone. When I started I had red G. Fred Asbell's_ Instincitve Shooting _books and watched his video. I'm sure there are great bits if information in there (as I still believe his ground hunting book is fantastic) but several of the repeated points were: you need to shoot quickly, you need to be able to shoot from any position, and_ hunting and targets are two entirely different worlds_. My shooting was attrocious for a long time because of that mentality, even though I practiced very hard every day with my hunting bow. I missed a lot of deer and other game, and most from a standing, nearly perfect shooting position.
> 
> ...


Keegan

Did it ever occur to you that many people who hunt, use G.Fred's style and have no issues? Many people also use Howard Hill's methods and have no issues.

To make a bold claim that either method doesn't work. .is foolish at best..even if it doesn't work for you. 

Now, before someone who diasgrees and point out that they seldom see either style being used in some tournament. .bear in mind that not all archers participate in these events. If someone wants to suggest that if any archer who chooses not to participate in one of those events is any less of a archer...well they are just showing how arrogant, childish, and obnoxious they are and I won't hesitate to say it to their face. 

Hunting as some folks do is indeed worlds apart from any type of formal target shooting and this includes any formal 3d events . Please note the word some here...

If a person who is intelligent chooses to use the information given by all of the various teaching coaches, gurus, champions past and present, in a manner that is suitable to them..they gain knowledge of all styles and can see what they can take from EACH...to benifit their needs...With the amount of good information that is available to all of us...being able to adapt it to mske us better at what we want to do is a lot easier than ever. 

When someone who hasn't done this, they always seem to put down one that didn't work out for them when they tried to emulate the coach. That is why they have issues shooting. ..they are trying to emulate another's style in alk aspects of shooting the bow . That's why you had issues. .you didn't take the parts that suited your style. .Don't throw it all together away..learn how to take just what you need from each and develop something that you can use anywhere anytime under any circumstances. .

Someone who utilizes what they have learned from different ciaches, books, videos has a much better chance at adapting to what ever hunting situation, and even tournament situation arises...For me..it means knowing when I have to thread a arrow through obstructions and how I need to shoot to make they shot.

Most of the folks I know that hunt as I do know full well of the benefits of being able to pull off a fast shot..a off balance shot, a shot from laying down. .If you don't, think about learning some of the reasons G.Fred gave for learning how to ..you'll never be able to do it. . Watch some of John Schultz's videos as well. .Hunting on the ground, and learning how to shoot in this manner in a controlled manner, will only benefit you in the long term . It's not all about perfecting 1 form to shoot from, but learning how to do the same with many forms..You need to remember..you don't have to shoot like that all the time. .just when the shot calls for it.That style is worlds apart from the target world...but..very effective when used properly. 

Know this. .people who put it down. .don't understand it or refuse to accept there are good reasons to use it..Don't fall into the trashing of different styles just because you can't utilize it and someone here scoffs at his teachings.

Be above the rhetoric of those who think that there is only 1 way to properly shoot a bow.Take from them what best serves you and your style and let these small minded people to do with it as they please . They only want those who think shoot compete and hunt like them. to discuss the merits of their style and will bad mouth anyone else who dares to disagree with how they think. 


Mac


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

While there are alot of opinions here I can agree with, some I can't, it seems to come down to, do what works for YOU.

Yes, BlackWolf, I am good enough to hunt..
Yes, There is always room for improvement...

I'm self-taught, my form is mine, and my hunting success speaks for it self...
. I won't be going to an instructor, reading books, or watching vids to improve my shooting. . 
Because I find they don't work for ME.
I've taken a little of this and alittle of that and that's what I work with...

Good Luck on Your Hunts
Good Luck on Your Targets


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

1shot1 said:


> Yes, BlackWolf, I am good enough to hunt..
> Yes, There is always room for improvement...


:thumbs_up



1shot1 said:


> I'm self-taught, my form is mine, and my hunting success speaks for it self...
> . I won't be going to an instructor, reading books, or watching vids to improve my shooting. .
> Because I find they don't work for ME.


Why haven't ANY of those worked for you?

What have you found that works for you in regards to improving?

Ray :shade:


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

BlackWolf, The main reason I don't want to go to an instructor, read books or watch vids is fear. Fear that going that route will be like happened to me when I took golf and flycasting lessons after doing what I did for so many years. Even being a 5handicap golfer (and not hitting any woods) and casting 100ft to dippling trout on high pressure waters (and catching them), I still got harsh comments by on lookers on my form.
In a fit-of-madness I took lessons, found my form was completely WRONG and I had to start over or I'd never amount to anything. After giving it my best for over a year, I suc'ed, I wasn't enjoying my-self and I quit and tried to re-gain my former " Self ". It was a long hard trip to forget he expert teachings and just do what was natural to ME...

What works for me is shooting from 5 to 25yards with extreme focus on a spot, in different positions and angles. I'm in the woods/mountains 150-200days a year, have killed and recovered every big-game animal I've ever shot (75-100 deer with a recurve) and helped recover count-less animals for others (lost some of those)

I wish I had some of the knowledge from folks here when I was growing up with the recurve, who knows what I could have accomplished???


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Mac11700... Again you are a voice of reason and wisdom.... Thank You Sir...


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

J-in-AK said:


> i noticed this right when i got on this forum a couple a months ago. accuracy, perfect form, light draw weight...yada yada. most of this doesn't necessarily apply to most hunting situations at all. accuracy is important but killing paper in you backyard at known ranges and standing with great form is a far cry from hunting. usually the shot is kneeling, up or downhill and god knows how you have to hold your bow to get the shot. you almost need a traditional hunting forum seperate from those preaching 30# bows shooting perfect scores...they just don't mix that well as i have seen. accuracy is definately important as is practice..i'm sure some of you on the light bow/perfect score high horse would probably be shaking uncontrollably as a screaming bull elk is 15 yards from you or an angry rutting bull moose and miss your shot anyways...sometimes archery is a little mental as well.


I've been hunting with a bow for 30 years now - I've been target shooting for 4. So you could say I've got way more experience hunting. Due to where I live and hunt I've also killed a bunch of game. The single biggest thing to shorten blood trail is learning to say "NO". Knowledge earned through the school of hard knocks. 

If your actually practicing these shots that twist you up in a pretzel then you know they are very low percentage shots. You poke at the "Target" guys here but, everyone that I know is also a successful hunter. 

Unless you are spending a ton of money on bush flights you really don't get a chance to actually shoot at game all that often up there in AK now do you?

On any given year I can buy 6 over the counter deer tags, one draw deer and an over the counter elk tag. I can do the "elk snot" thing in my back yard. When I was single and hunting 80+ days a year I tagged out more often than not. 

I also did fairly well at the IBO trad worlds. Maybe just maybe the "target" guys have something to offer if you would open your mind just a touch. 

Matt


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Mac,

I'm sorry to imply that G. Fred's methods DON'T work. I'm aware that they've worked for quite a few people. In my response I forgot to put that I _took_ several points from his books that _seemed_ stand out _to me_ as the most important. My interpretation of his books left me in a mess. I apologize for not making that clear. However, I wasn't lying. His book hindered my shooting a great deal, and not just because of his style, but also because of this constant either-or mentality in his book, and one that you keep pushing. 

Being able to shoot with your legs and waist in all crazy manners doesn't mean you can't use proper form. I've watched all of the Hill videos I can find and have John Shulz's "Hitting 'Em Like Howard Hill". I'm a HUGE Hill fan. When John talks about shooting from other positions, even he emphasizes that the shoulders, anchor, draw length, etc. ALL remain the same, consistent, and proper. Hill was a big paper puncher too though. Shulz never recommended to practice by throwing that all out the window.

I tried to photo-copy Mr. Asbell because he seemed to imply that you had to to really become a good bowhunter. His style didn't work for me at all. I was new though, so how in the world was I supposed to know that you can actually use target style archery to improve your hunting, when every "bowhunter" and his brother is saying that they're worlds apart, have nothing to do with each other, and that target archery will make you a worse hunter? I thought I just had to keep at it- after all, that's the only advice that really seems to come from that sort of information. You're spot on that people need to find what works for them personally, but your constant arguing AGAINST the folks who are target minded isn't helping either. You're furthering the gap, and for folks who might need to borrow from both worlds (like myself and many others) you're making it harder for a bowhunting-minded newbie to accept target styling. You have to give a little to get a little.

I know now that I have a tough time picking up a large sight picture regardless of my form or style. I could swing and snap or hold at full draw for an hour in perfect target archer's pose, if the arrow is too low on my face away from my eye the accuracy will be the same (poor) with no consistency. How was I supposed to know that, when so many "hunting" archers would say that if you get that arrow too close to your eye you're doing it wrong? That gap-shooting is wrong and will make you miss when hunting? I had no consistency because my form was crap because I was too busy shooting at pine cones from every weird position. Now though, I can shoot quickly, sit on my butt, lie down, squat, kneel, shoot an wide range of bow weights (within reason) and do whatever, and still make a good shot with far better accuracy than I ever did when I practiced those "hunting shots" regularly, because my form _has _improved and I have learned a great deal about becoming a better, more competant bowhunter from target archery. In all honesty, "target" archers have been more of a help than most "hunting" archers of the style you're describing. I say that because most of the "hunting" archers who fall in that category just offer up a fairly poor explanation of how to improve. "Just keep practicing." "Practice a lot of out of position shots for real hunting scenarios." "Work into the bow you'll hunt with, it'll get easier in time." Those aren't helpful explanations. I've also found that most of the "target" archers, are also successful bowhunters.

I wish I had back all the years of hunting during which I fell for the either-or mentality. Some folks might be fine with that sort of advice, but I know I would have known the keen satisfaction of arrow-killed venison much sooner. I'm just darn lucky I didn't wound anything in that time. If it works for others than that's *terrific*. It truly, truly is, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I wish it was that easy for everyone. It's not though. It seems a lot of people are like me. We all struggle with a bow that's too heavy- heck, Mac, even you're getting a lighter bow because you can't hold your heavy bow back for very long (at least I think that's what you said- forgive me if I'm wrong). We need some sort of system where we know what to work on to improve. I genuinely think that's why Rick Welch's methods are so popular, because they bridge that gap for many of us and give people something solid to work on to improve. That's more than I can say for a lot of the "hunting" archers that seem to be crying out against anything remotely "target"-oriented.

All I know is this: ever since I started paying attention to what "target" archers did and had to say, I've not only been steadily improving but so far I've been able to put at least two deer in the freezer for the past three years. Before that, I hunted for five years (a lot more than I do now) and never scored once on any sort of game. If the only way to measure success as a bowhunter is meat in the freezer, it's pretty clear what styles work and what doesn't. How are my opinions that that style is inferior any different to your opinion that target style is inferior?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

My only experience with the Fred A. style is what I saw in the club I belonged to years ago. There were a handful of guys with nice bows and fancy "trad" gear but none of them could hit anything. The other thing that sticks out in my memory is how slow their arrows flew. I guess that was because they never came near full draw?

I started with a compound. My first step toward "trad" was taking the sights off. When I got a recurve, I shot with the bow vertical, held and aimed just like I did with the compound.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

A couple of comments:

If you can shoot a 6" group consistently at 20 yds, you may also be a pretty darn good target shooter if you chose to do so. Will you win? Probably not but will you hold your own? Absolutely. 

Can you shoot 60 arrows that accurately during a 300 round with a hunting weight bow? Maybe. Do you need 60 shots to kill a deer. No, just one.

Will being an accurate hunter make you a good target shooter? Maybe. Will being a good target shooter make you a more accurate hunter? Absolutely.

I hunt, punch paper, shoot 3D, etc.... Its all in the name of accuracy. We can all strive to be as accurate as our physical abilities will allow us to be with the equipment we choose to use.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I've also heard that to get better, you just practice more. It wasn't true for me. Practice doesn't make perfect. *Perfect* practice makes perfect. When you practice doing something in a way that doesn't work, you just get real good at missing.

I needed a plan to improve in any real lasting way.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

MGF said:


> I've also heard that to get better, you just practice more. It wasn't true for me. Practice doesn't make perfect. *Perfect* practice makes perfect. When you practice doing something in a way that doesn't work, you just get real good at missing.
> 
> I needed a plan to improve in any real lasting way.


Great post.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

1shot1,

Thanks for your explanation! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I think target archers have ALLOT to offer to many struggling bowhunters.

It's the 'elitist' and pompous attitudes of some of them that many of us have issues with... especially when they imply or make specific comments that basically claim every archer needs to do exactly as they say or they're not worth a pile of beans...which often includes backyard archers, archers aiming Instinctively or those utilizing Asbel style form.

Ray :shade:


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

GEREP said:


> As usual, you assume way to much. What makes you think this was a result of a hunter with a *"good enough"* attitude and not the result of a deer with a *"OH S**T"* attitude?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm leaning more towards the deer..."Ain't gonna get us..." In that still frame both deer moved to avoid the arrow. It went beyond just being spooked by the noise. They were watching and reacted accordingly.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Just to dispel the idea that target archery is all known distances and level footing/level shooting.....






























































Only the second picture was at a known distance. The third picture was later found to be about 40m at 40 degrees up.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Greysides said:


> Just to dispel the idea that target archery is all known distances and level footing/level shooting.....


I'm not sure how many people actually think target archery is only shooting on level ground at known distances...BUT...that looks like an AWESOME field course :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Greysides
I shot in an adjacent state's outdoor field championship this Summer and the course was very similar to the one you posted.
If you elected to shoot the "birdie" target starting at the bottom, by the time you got to 20' stake, you were almost shooting straight UP.
It was very fun and challenging course, to say the least.

Thanks for posting the photos.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

1shot1 said:


> Plus100 Rattus58...
> 
> Itbeso... Really???
> 
> TwistedMetall...???


Yes, really!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> I've also heard that to get better, you just practice more. It wasn't true for me. Practice doesn't make perfect. *Perfect* practice makes perfect. When you practice doing something in a way that doesn't work, you just get real good at missing.
> 
> I needed a plan to improve in any real lasting way.


That's true.... but perfect practice requires an investment in time, money, equipment or teacher. I'm a great example of trying to do it myself and having years of frustration then a couple of old timers took the time to explain to me several things that changed my life... anchor was the first... alignment was one of the follow_on... the 5-25 or 5 to 50 practice... and the sage advise to rove and role play... sneak up on your arrow... and that bit of advise has set the stage for my hunting style today... for many an animal, it came while looking for my arrow while roving and then glassing... but it all came back to having probably for everyone, an accomplished mentor somewhere.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

kegan said:


> Jinks, I've found that if I focus too much on form my accuracy suffers because I can't focus both on the spot to hit and to doing everything textbook. I focus on engraining form during blank bale, and focus on rhythm and control (beyond the spot) when shooting to hit the spot.
> 
> Just because you're not focusing on it doesn't mean you're not using proper form.



Kegan, I don't want to pick a fight with you, but I seem to remember that the last deer almost got away because of a sudden bout with the dreaded target panic. Correct me if I'm wrong, I feel sure that's what you said.
I also remember way back when you decided to adapt the target shooters wonderful form ideas. Had to do it all a certain way or it just won't work. Now, I can't remember for sure if I said it or not but I would have been negligent if I did not warn you at that time. I probably smiled and used the old wait and see approach, knowing that you were interrupting the learning curve and would eventually figure it out. Sure, now you feel confident in your form and aiming the arrow, it's all good, that is if the TP doesn't bite you when the chips are down. Am I right or wrong?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Keegan

I'm not pushing any 1 style. ..what I said was use what is useful for your style...from all styles...and don't bash G.Freds style like some of the folks here do.

Sorry if you mistook me for saying otherwise. 

I know others who try to emulate a certain way of shooting and they have bought into completely who can't hit with any consistency, yet continue to say that they are doing everything just like they were told. .If something isn't working right, fix it.Use a different method. 

Each style belongs to the creator of it.It works for them, and they use it..I firmly believe each style has its own merit and can be learned and used if a person can utilize parts of it as they need it . It's like having more than 1 tool to use on a tool belt you take out on a job..

Some shots..you can aim with..some you can't or don't have time for. .some shots require extremely good balance, some or on level ground that are wide open, others are in close quarters that are difficult to range..

The more styles and ways we can draw from, the more we are prepared for the unexpected. .

No 1 style is perfect for every archer, and being excellent with one is no excuse to say to someone else 1 style is bad..People here do just this. .

I get a hearty laugh at how far some here go to put others down for how they choose to shoot...Ive learned from some excellent people different tips to do that has helped my shooting over the years..but thr best one csme from Earl Hoyt himself. .he said be myself..use what I am comfortable with....if you are consistent with doing it 1 way..dont let others tell you to shoot differently. .

I took that to heart..and still feel it is appropriate for anyone..The lesson on how I shot from him wasn't on technic only but more on fit..fitting the bow to the shooter..namely me..and what best allowed me to shoot it better..He told me that to shoot my style the best..the bow had to be an extension of my bow arm and hand..He showed me a few other tricks as well. ...but that is the one that changed me the most and improved my shooting enough that the following weekend with my new 66 lb bow won my first place trophy at a large 3d shoot here.I haven't changed my style..it is it's own..unique to me..It's a combination of all styles and has served me well in the field. .


Use all styles to your advantage. .each can make you a better...happier..accurate archer..if you choose to. .if you take from each what works best for how you shoot and make it unique to you..

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Keegan..

Sorry I didn't finish answering your questions. .

Yes..I am considering dropping in weight..only because it is easier to aim with. .but in doing so I will never tell someone else that is the only way to shoot a bow..It may indeed work better under certain applications, but isn't the only way to do it. 

I also have considered going to a heavier draw weight bow . There are merits to them as well if utilized properly. I don't discount being able to shoot a heavy arrow faster under some circumstances. .

I look and see the good in all of what is available to me and understand what each has to offer. I'm not biased to anything that can make me better in accomplishing what I want to do. 

Hope that helps

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> If something isn't working right, fix it.Use a different method.
> 
> Each style belongs to the creator of it.It works for them, and they use it..I firmly believe each style has its own merit and can be learned and used if a person can utilize parts of it as they need it . It's like having more than 1 tool to use on a tool belt you take out on a job..
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## J-in-AK (Oct 1, 2013)

Matt_Potter said:


> I've been hunting with a bow for 30 years now - I've been target shooting for 4. So you could say I've got way more experience hunting. Due to where I live and hunt I've also killed a bunch of game. The single biggest thing to shorten blood trail is learning to say "NO". Knowledge earned through the school of hard knocks.
> 
> If your actually practicing these shots that twist you up in a pretzel then you know they are very low percentage shots. You poke at the "Target" guys here but, everyone that I know is also a successful hunter.
> 
> ...


Matt, I live in the bush so hunting is at my doorstep and having friends with supercubs makes life pretty nice...going to college in Missoula was the reason i had to go to college again. and ill see your 6 deer tags and raise you five caribou a day all year long...which i usually shoot a few a year is all. 
Keegan i appreciate your post and i agree with what you are stating. I have done fine hunting with compound, traditional, and rifle. Probably have more things to my credit than many but this isnt a you know what measuring contest. The animals i take and have taken wont be getting posted but thats for personal reasons. I have never read any of the archery books you speak of although i would like too. My approach to archery which began at a young age and my approach to hunting was all mostly taught to be by my dad and hard knocks not someone else. it was not with optimal equipment or a lot of instruction. I hunt very ethically in my opinion and will not take shots i don't think i can make just to make an effort at killing something. I've lost exactly two animals in my hunting life (over 20 years), one from a bad decision which i wont make again and one was a misjudjement in yardage that resulted in a grazing brisket shot. im not ashamed to admit this and learned from my mistakes. I realize everyone has their own approach and i'm not complacent in my shooting. I love to practice and practice in practical hunting situations. I just think people need to step back sometimes and let people enjoy archery how they want. I strive to be as accurate as i can but will never shoot in any competition because i just dont care about that. Hunting involves much differnt circumstances than what competitive shooters deal with (this is just my opinion because im not a competitive shooter). Not everyone can sneak within 10 yrds of a bedded animal (did this a couple weeks ago) there is just simply more to hunting than hitting the bullseye. While i commend competitive shooters and people that shoot daily ( i cant) i believe on the hunting side of things i feel i've been more fortunate than most for many huting opportunities ive had in my life and much success but i think thats due to me putting in so much time on both fronts. not just shooting and waiting until im the best shot in the world...which will never happen. this has been an informative thread and nice to see people not getting too bent out of shape. i love constructive discussions. greysides those are great practice senarios for sure. i guess what kind put me off to this whole forum when i first got on is as soon as someone talked about shooting a heavier bow for hunting in particular everyone was so quick to put em down saying they'll never learn and just throw it away and start over to which i say thats not necessarily helping anyone. i see some arguments to this but i think the main opposition was mostly coming from competitive shooters toting accuracy as the number one which i believe is what this thread was originally about.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

J-n-AK

That was exactly my point..

No 1 style fits all..but that some insist on preaching this..regardless of the style. .

Mac


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Forest, you're right. I'm not sure what you're trying to say though? What learning curve was I interupting? I shot that way for five years, practiced hard, and I never got any better. What, is TP just my punishment for trying to get better?

Mac, I went back and reread my post that garnered your initial harsh response. I didn't actually say anything disparaging about Asbell's style even though I forgot to include everything I intended. I said it didn't work for me and a more target oriented approach did. Your response was that I was a fool for thinking that style didn't work, which I never said. You then went on a mini name calling rant about anyone who asked for proof of shooting prowess. You stated that if a person was smart, he could look at everything presented and find his own style, even though you had _just _got done calling people who ask for proof of proficiency a series of nasty names (which is pretty much the whole point of shooting targets). You said that I didn't take from different styles and that's why my shooting stunk, which by your own definition means you're saying I was stupid. Stupid because I basically believed Asbell who wrote that to be successful his approach was the easiest way. However, I'm foolish for discounting Asbell's style. 

I was wondering what the heck I wrote that was so hostile or rude to garner such a response. I didn't find anything. If you actually thought folks should just try a little of everything and find what works for them, you wouldn't have attacked me and anyone who offers a target oriented approach the way you did.

I'm glad you've gotten to shoot with Mr. Hoyt, an accomplished target archer and bowhunter, and receive some advice on just honing your own style. Around here, I'm one of only a tiny handful of folks who shoot traditional seriously, and the only local traditional shooter I've met worth writing home about is Tony, who shoots with me pretty regularly and has taken a lot from paper punchers and foam killers too to get as good as he is. I never had the natural talent to "develope my own style" on my own or someone to watch me shoot and give me ANY sort of pointers. Being that bowhunting was my only goal, I thought "bowhunters" would have been my best shot for advice. I was wrong.

If you want people to remain open minded, don't be so nasty when they say something against *your* style.

For the record folks, my name is Kegan (pronounced KAY-gin), not Keegan. Only one 'e'. It's spelled right in my handle, I promise.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Forest, you're right. I'm not sure what you're trying to say though? What learning curve was I interupting? I shot that way for five years, practiced hard, and I never got any better. What, is TP just my punishment for trying to get better?
> 
> Mac, I went back and reread my post that garnered your initial harsh response. I didn't actually say anything disparaging about Asbell's style even though I forgot to include everything I intended. I said it didn't work for me and a more target oriented approach did. Your response was that I was a fool for thinking that style didn't work, which I never said. You then went on a mini name calling rant about anyone who asked for proof of shooting prowess. You stated that if a person was smart, he could look at everything presented and find his own style, even though you had _just _got done calling people who ask for proof of proficiency a series of nasty names (which is pretty much the whole point of shooting targets). You said that I didn't take from different styles and that's why my shooting stunk, which by your own definition means you're saying I was stupid. Stupid because I basically believed Asbell who wrote that to be successful his approach was the easiest way. However, I'm foolish for discounting Asbell's style.
> 
> ...


:laugh:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

IMHO, the crucial thing is, having a shot that you can use under severe pressure. That pressure could be a world championship 3D or field shoot or under the adrenalin rush of drawing in a big buck.
TP and buck fever come into it but for me, it's about keeping everything simple, the old KISS method. Solid practiced form that is drilled in by repetition and confidence in your knowledge that you can hit your pie plate, under any pressure, on any day takes away much of that nervous stress and allows you to shoot more on autopilot. Nothing says miss more that drawing up on your target with doubt in your mind.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

I'll tell you what I found out today... I shoot a mid cant out of a treestand which I practice often. Shooting 3d I shoot nearly vertically just bc I can. I got in a new stand today and had some cover in the way so I had to cant the bow more than I'm used to. I went to shoot my pine cone and get down and I missed like 10" high and right bout 25yds out. I'm a righty. What I found out was that my alignment is off a bit and I'm anchoring different. Conclusion, I'd have probably wounded a deer today = humble pie for me. But I'll do what I always do and practice with a harder cant until I can ensure my anchors are consistent, so some blank bale to get my bearings, and when I go to the stand next weekend I'll be ready for all different cant degrees. 

Dave


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## J-in-AK (Oct 1, 2013)

kegan, sorry for mis-typing your name. after a few cups of cofee and dealing with work i get a little twitchy in the typing fingers. seems like a few are getting rilled up over not much. its pretty easy to take peoples tone out of context on forums so lets take er easy. dave i think your experience just shows that its good to get out of the comfort zone and practice all and any types of shots. i remember dangling out of trees and shooting off the roof of the house as a kid even between tree branches and bow canted way out of wack...makes for good practice in my opinion. form..terrible, accuracy...in the kill zone...who would have thought.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> Mac, I went back and reread my post that garnered your initial harsh response. I didn't actually say anything disparaging about Asbell's style even though I forgot to include everything I intended. I said it didn't work for me and a more target oriented approach did. Your response was that I was a fool for thinking that style didn't work, which I never said. [Quote/]
> 
> Stop right there Kegan..saying someone is foolish is not the same as calling them a fool..
> 
> ...


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Well, Mr Kaygin , First let me say that you are my hero. I knew you when. When you were still learning to shoot your self bows. Now you have progressed to building really nice custom bows that have a very loyal following. Heck, I'm even guilty of promoting them myself and I don't even own one. I just know that the people who bought them and sang their praises daily were being truthful, not fan boys. That's a lot of progress in a fairly short time.
Now, the shooting part. I am a firm believer in trying different methods, do it often myself. Some are good ideas and some are the worm in the apple. It's been a few years but only seems like months ago when you became infatuated with the proper form and aiming stuff. Maybe I didn't say anything then or maybe I did and saw that you did not agree so I shut up. Sometimes people have to attend the school of hard knocks alone. But I know that you are aware of my position on these things. YES, I am convinced that often the pursuit of perfect form( whatever that is) and too much emphasis on aiming does lead to target panic. I don't intend to give a lesson on instinctive shooting here but way back then I believed it would serve your needs better. You are a hunter at heart. 
I don't blame you for following the path that you thought was the right one. I do believe now that it might have been the wrong one for your unique situation. I also believe it will be hard to fix because you don't think it needs to be fixed. I say if target panic caused a problem when shooting a deer, then something is definitely wrong. I have never heard of an instinctive shooter having that problem. Why? Don't know, but possibly because hunters who shoot instinctively tend to not get too anal about form and aiming.


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## J-in-AK (Oct 1, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> hunters who shoot instinctively tend to not get too anal about form and aiming.


i think there is a lot of truth to this and not just trad archery. i know...i know... we all strive to be the best shots we can be or at least we try. most of the best bowhunters i know (im not one of them) aren't the best target shots but consistantly get game with their bows every year. their form is not textbook, their gear is not 1k+ custom bows. they are just good hunters plain and simple. they know game, know habits, and are sneaky as all hell. you dont have to hit every x if you can always put yourself up close and personal and pay attention to your limits. for some it takes perfect form to learn how to hunt but the first time you hunt you'll realize there will be no perfect form in the field. i guess we can all agree accuracy and form are important as the OP stated there is just a differnet acceptance level between the divisions of archery of what is accurate and what isn't. i think a combination approach is important for someone brand new to bowhunting. you need to be able to hit what you aiming at but you also need to spend some time getting up close to animals and making a shot without shaking like a .....(whatever joke you like) and gain some good hunting skills. Kegan you mentioned not getting animals the first couple years you hunted. was that from lack of accuracy or having to take shots that were way too far because of a lack of hunting ability im not questioning your hunting skill just curious? Im just using this as an example but the first day i ever went bowhunting i killed a muley buck on the ground. it was not my amazing accuracy is was that i was 10-15 yards from him and couldn't hardly miss. at the time my hunting skills far exceeded my aim. the point is hunting accuracy has different factors in it and many invlove things other than the bow and arrow in your hand.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Instinctive shooters are far from immune to TP. Most who get it end up snap shooting in the negative meaning of the term.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Instinctive shooters are far from immune to TP. Most who get it end up snap shooting in the negative meaning of the term.
> 
> Ray :shade:



You may be wrong but for all I know, you may be right. Not likely.  Do you mean that most shooters who get it or most instinctive shooters? 
But I still believe it's possible to get too involved in the details and forget to drain the swamp. Worm in the apple.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Do you mean that most shooters who get it or most instinctive shooters?


Most of the archers who told me they struggle with TP AND Snap Shoot as a result of it...have primarily been archers who claim to be aiming Instinctively.

I agree...depending on an archer's PERSONALITY...they can get too involved in the details.

The longer an archer takes to shoot an arrow...the more chance negative thoughts have a chance to enter the mind and create doubt and anxiety.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Instinctive shooters are far from immune to TP. Most who get it end up snap shooting in the negative meaning of the term.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Isn't target panic essentially premature release? I can't think of anything less desirable... :laugh:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

J-in-AK, it's alright. With a goofy name I'm used to mistakes, but I wanted to point it out. Some folks never get out of the habit. I never took anything you said as offensive.

Mac, whatever your original intent, I reread your first response to me several times. Whether you realized it or not, you were making _several_ slights. I'm not playing victim but I do take offense. I don't appreciate the insistence that I misunderstood and am imagining things either.

Forest, thank you. I'll be honest, if I continued what I was doing I would have never gotten any good. I can't shoot with a low anchor/large sight picture, which is what I kept reading was pretty much the "right" way. However, you're right about the instinctive helping. I mentioned this on Steve Morely's thread about trying instinctive to get over tp. I've been re-watching my Rick Welch DVD's and it's been helping. Unfortunately, it isn't an easy cure and I'm still having trouble- like I did with my deer. I was shooting gap-stinctive when I got it. If I never worked on target style I would have never gotten to where I am now though. Even Rick is big on consistent and controlled form though.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> J-in-AK, it's alright. With a goofy name I'm used to mistakes, but I wanted to point it out. Some folks never get out of the habit. I never took anything you said as offensive.
> 
> Mac, whatever your original intent, I reread your first response to me several times. Whether you realized it or not, you were making _several_ slights. I'm not playing victim but I do take offense. I don't appreciate the insistence that I misunderstood and am imagining things either.
> 
> Forest, thank you. I'll be honest, if I continued what I was doing I would have never gotten any good. I can't shoot with a low anchor/large sight picture, which is what I kept reading was pretty much the "right" way. However, you're right about the instinctive helping. I mentioned this on Steve Morely's thread about trying instinctive to get over tp. I've been re-watching my Rick Welch DVD's and it's been helping. Unfortunately, it isn't an easy cure and I'm still having trouble- like I did with my deer. I was shooting gap-stinctive when I got it. If I never worked on target style I would have never gotten to where I am now though. Even Rick is big on consistent and controlled form though.


Didn't someone write a book about target panic some years ago that I understood to be pretty effective in uncovering the methods to overcome target panic? If I remember the discussion, it wasn't a book big on the why of target panic... if you got, you got it, but here is/are ways to fix it regardless?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Isn't target panic essentially premature release? I can't think of anything less desirable... :laugh:


Not necessarily. I suffer from TP but my problem is struggling to release while I'm at anchor.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Kegan, are there any rabbits around your house? Rabbits might be the best bow hunting practice there is. Possibly even a cure for the target panic. They often don't give you much time to do what you're gonna do. You probably won't get too many shots at first because you want to shoot right. But if there are quite a few opportunities, you will learn to break all the rules to git er done.Anchor point? What anchor point? No time to worry about that. Back muscles? Who cares what they are doing, no time for that. When you get to where you can hit them without even thinking about it, then the confidence will come back and the TP will be long forgotten. Full money back guarantee.


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## sunstroked (Oct 8, 2008)

I've been at the sport of bowhunting and target archery for 40 yrs. I never stop trying to become accurate. But trying to keep the high concentration level required to be consistent at the butts, is not always possible. Chatting, distractions etc degrades your scores. In hunting, your undivided focus is on the quarry. This alone can explain why someone who is a mediocre target archer can consistently kill game. And just because you are a phenomenal target shot doesn't mean you can hold it together during the moment of truth on a buck or bull elk.


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## twistedmetall (Aug 3, 2012)

Ahh heck its all mental once ya got the basics down, for those that get target panic id hate to see what would happen if they had a trophy buck or bull in there sights


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

twistedmetall said:


> Ahh heck its all mental once ya got the basics down, for those that get target panic id hate to see what would happen if they had a trophy buck or bull in there sights


Target panic rarely shows its ugly head with average archers. It is usually guys and gals who are good, very good, who get it.

Yes, it is 100% mental.

Target panic and buck fever are both mental, but the similarity ends there.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Big Country said:


> Target panic rarely shows its ugly head with average archers. It is usually guys and gals who are good, very good, who get it.
> 
> Yes, it is 100% mental.
> 
> Target panic and buck fever are both mental, but the similarity ends there.


I'm sure glad I'm an average shooter because I've never had it or even want to know what it is


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

kegan said:


> Mac, whatever your original intent, I reread your first response to me several times. Whether you realized it or not, you were making _several_ slights. I'm not playing victim but I do take offense. I don't appreciate the insistence that I misunderstood and am imagining things either.
> 
> .


Really. .several slights...you mean like calling you foolish. ..Sorry. .we all have done foolish things in life. .it sure don't mean we are fools..

What other slights besides my poor spelling are you talking about. .saying I will call someone to their face they are arrogant, obnoxious and childish. .Have you even bothered to follow this thread from post 1 ?

Who have I said this to before? It surely wasn't you nor directed at you. .but I know who will eventually say
this..and it will be said to them once they do . I told him as much..and said I could get that way back at him . I haven't gotten nasty with you...not even a little bit. .


Another thing. .just because I quote you, ,doesn't mean everything that follows is directed solely to you..you have been here long enough that you should know this by now. We aren't having a private conversation here on this very public forum. .now are we.

You can take offence at what i said if you choose to. .but if I say I meant none..I meant none..and if you still choose to feel slighted by it..look to your own self..I have no reason in apologizing again and again for doing nothing wrong. 

You elected to make a blanket statement that G.Freds methods don't work for the majority of people who use them..not me. IT MATTERS NOT WHAT YOU STATED PRIOR TO THIS..it's what you ended your post with..Go back and read it. .

I have said numerous times I use ALL METHODS TO HUNT SHOOT WITH. ...but somehow you haven't bothered reading everything I have said on the subject. ..just what you want to..so your able to feel I'm being nasty or have slighted your sensitivities a little. .How much clearer can I be or assume any other reason. 

Look again at this..and try to be objective about it...unless of course you choose to remain slighted...in which case
I can't help or change your feelings. .

Mac


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JParanee said:


> I'm sure glad I'm an average shooter because I've never had it or even want to know what it is



:yo:
I'm witcha.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

JParanee said:


> I'm sure glad I'm an average shooter because I've never had it or even want to know what it is


I hope you never experience either Joe.  I was 3/4 way through a winter league NFAA 300 round, heading towards my average 300 w/56-58X score when I suddenly could not even hit the bale my target was pinned to. It is a confusing and humbling experience. I was lucky, within two weeks I was right back where I started. I have seen TP make some really good shooters walk away from archery.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have heard a lot about it but thankfully I have no personal experience

I even avoid reading about it  

I don't know what it is so I'm scared to learn about it for fear of suffering it


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## J-in-AK (Oct 1, 2013)

edit..sorry lumping target panic and buck fever in as the same thing...post deleted


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## sunstroked (Oct 8, 2008)

Ahh heck its all mental once ya got the basics down, for those that get target panic id hate to see what would happen if they had a trophy buck or bull in there sights

Sir, I have the dreaded tp affliction, should I post pix of my 330 bull elk ( or several of the lesser elk I've taken) or 1 of my p&y bears? Maybe 1 of my dozens of 1st place trophys or plaques from various trad shoots. :wink: TP rears it's ugly head to the best, not just target archers striving for x rings or hunters within spitting distance of game. I've dealt with it on and off for yrs. Sometimes changing bows helps. Sometimes shooting style, lord knows I've tried many different cures. And yes sir, I shoot instinctively with the stickbow. Well mostly. Sometimes I gap at longer yardages. You see, new shooters rarely get tp. It's the seasoned guys who've had some level of success who seem to become afflicted. Good archery form really helps with the affliction so when Kegan speaks of using a proper shooting form, it is really a positive step. I use a form much akin to what John Schultz demonstrates. It works for me in hunting situations, which is what I love to do. Hunt. A more formal approach may work better for someone else. The 1 thing I have learned is I must be consistent in coming to full draw, and not to think about the shot too much.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Kegan, are there any rabbits around your house? Rabbits might be the best bow hunting practice there is. Possibly even a cure for the target panic. They often don't give you much time to do what you're gonna do. You probably won't get too many shots at first because you want to shoot right. But if there are quite a few opportunities, you will learn to break all the rules to git er done.Anchor point? What anchor point? No time to worry about that. Back muscles? Who cares what they are doing, no time for that. When you get to where you can hit them without even thinking about it, then the confidence will come back and the TP will be long forgotten. Full money back guarantee.


I shoot a lot of rabbits with a bow some years...not this year because there aren't any around. I've been seeing one hanging around but I'm not going to shoot it. LOL

Anyway, I catch them sitting. They're usually very close shots and I have plenty of time. The hardest part is that they're usually much closer than I normally practice. In normal practice, I shoot from about 10 yards and back. A lot of my shots on rabbits are more like 10 or 15 feet. I anchor and aim.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

We used to have a good amount of rabbits to hunt around here. When the floods came, it wiped out the population in the best hunting sreas, and they never came back. I see more bunnies in the city these days.

I'm like some others here..I've never had TP, or even buck fever and from everything those of you who have been afflicted say about it, sure don't want to get it.

I wish we could trade some of the gray squirrels we have for a good population of cotton tails. .it seems that their population has has tripled...and now the hawks and owls have too..so any rabbits are hard pressed to make it. 

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Those grey squirrels are fun hunting and the finest eating. Squirrel hunting and eating is my real passion.

I don't know about TP but I sure have had buck fever. Shots at deer, especially bucks, are just so rare and precious for me that when the chance comes it just about gives me a heart attack.

Yesterday when that buck (I wrote about it in another thread) first came in I thought my heart was going to beat right out of my chest. I spent the first few minutes just trying to relax and get my body functions under control. That was the first time I even thought I was going to get a shot so far this season and if I would have had to shoot at that moment, I wouldn't have been able to hit anything.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Yup..lots of fun to shoot...They are ok to eat too but. .I prefer the big reds myself. Love to prepare them on the bbq grill like I do...:wink:

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I like fox squirrels too but, if you get an old one they can be tuff. Greys are almost never tuff.

I can general tell the tuff from the tender when I skin them so we pack the tuff ones separate and my wife cooks them different...slow cooker or whatever. I like the tender ones just fried in a little butter.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

My mom Shake n Baked my first squirrel...LOL. My whole family was gagging. My little brother even ran to the bathroom puking LOL

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> My mom Shake n Baked my first squirrel...LOL. My whole family was gagging. My little brother even ran to the bathroom puking LOL
> 
> Ray :shade:


It couldn't have been that bad.

My mother-in-law, on the other hand, cooks everything to death and cooks anything "wild" extra long. I've had mummified squirrels and ducks at their house. It was all you could do to chisel some ashes off the bone. LOL


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Big Country said:


> Target panic rarely shows its ugly head with average archers. It is usually guys and gals who are good, very good, who get it.
> 
> Yes, it is 100% mental.
> 
> Target panic and buck fever are both mental, but the similarity ends there.





Big Country said:


> I hope you never experience either Joe.  I was 3/4 way through a winter league NFAA 300 round, heading towards my average 300 w/56-58X score when I suddenly could not even hit the bale my target was pinned to. It is a confusing and humbling experience. I was lucky, within two weeks I was right back where I started. I have seen TP make some really good shooters walk away from archery.


BC...I can tell by your two responses above that you are intimately familiar with the very real effects of TP....and I as well have watched several of the best archers I ever knew wind up walking away...one tried placing hot spots on his sliding glass doors to do let-down drills in an attempt to break himself of it (the informed know how that ended)...one older gent who could light stick matches at one time ended off spending huge bucks under-going psycho-therapy sessions...which worked for about 3 shots before he smashed his expensive target rig across the nearest pine tree and drove away never to be seen or heard from again....and one of them?...in 1994?...was me. 

And now?...thanks to much help from forums like these?...and shooing sightless bows of a weight I can handle?....along with understanding how my mind works via DR. Jay Kidwell and Joel Turner?...then applying the form aspects of what I learned from attending Rod Jenkins clinic?...I'm able to "get by" in the backyard with my stickbows! :laugh:

But here's the thing...to this day...if I try gapping and using any part of my arrow like a pin sight?...I can "get away with it" for a little while...but...I'm just around the corner from all the horrors of TP I suffered through rushing back upon me...at least these days I can actually "feel it coming"...and I stop gapping and revert back to my instinctive ways with a little split-vision tossed in for verification purposes only...ala what some folks term as "gapstinctive"...but I come off the shaft at the bow...and never the point at the target...what's it all mean?...well?...

I'll probably never be a championship shooter again...dang sure won't be bringing home any gold...and I've come to accept that the extent of my achievements may be limiting myself to "practical hunting groups at reasonable distances of 20yds and less"...but guess what?...I'm happy as a lark with that...cause my shots are well controlled and?....

*I GET TO ENJOY SHOOTING AGAIN!*

and while I'll probably never win anything?...I'm not to shabby on a ASA 3D course, love meeting a shooting with other great people and?...

I'm perfectly content with being the most relaxed guy with the biggest smile. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sorry...double post.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> It couldn't have been that bad.


Believe me it was...at least for a bunch of finicky kids exposed to wild game for the first time :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> It couldn't have been that bad.


Believe me it was...at least for a bunch of finicky kids exposed to wild game for the first time :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

The best way to avoid Target Panic would be to avoid targets......

Just a thought.


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## J-in-AK (Oct 1, 2013)

i was under the impression that the "jack daniels recipe" involved swilling most of the bottle so that no matter what you cooked was..."thisss issth theee bethest thingss (burp) i've ever eated". its a great recipe! my friend made some "smoked rabbit?" i guess he was shooting for rabbit jerky or something that resembled meat. im pretty sure he chased this rabbit about a hundred miles on his snowmachine before he got it.. it was like a rubber band dipped in liquid smoke....absolutely terrible.


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Par-boil rabbit/squirrel till tender... let it cool... then bread/ season with pepper chili mix/dry rub... then fry/grill... always tender fall-off the bone and juicey...
Enjoy...


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

MGF said:


> I like fox squirrels too but, if you get an old one they can be tuff. Greys are almost never tuff.
> 
> I can general tell the tuff from the tender when I skin them so we pack the tuff ones separate and my wife cooks them different...slow cooker or whatever. I like the tender ones just fried in a little butter.


Yup..gotta watch out for the tuff ones..I'll let them stay in the marinade over night or two. .The young ones are soaked in butter milk then basted and then grilled. I use my Jack Daniels recipe for them. .uselly do some rib tips as well with them. .

Mac


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Target panic happens whether you suck or really good....I've got a freimd of mine that sucks because he has target panic...when he got over it for a while he would average 270 on a 300round easily...then he let it come back and he sucks again!!

I've always said I'm three shots away from full blown target panic.


Dewayne Martin


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Target panic happens whether you suck or really good....I've got a freimd of mine that sucks because he has target panic...when he got over it for a while he would average 270 on a 300round easily...then he let it come back and he sucks again!!
> 
> I've always said I'm three shots away from full blown target panic.
> 
> ...


Dewayne, obviously you have a grasp of what target panic is. Read back through some of the posts if you want a good laugh. One poster said the way to not get target panic is to stay away from targets. Another said only the top shooters are susceptible to getting it, another said they have never had it, another said instinctive archers are less susceptible to it. Target panic has affected every archer at one time or another, it's just some won't admit to it. I've seen instinctive, snap shooters who would never admit to having TP but , in reality, shooting before you even get to anchor is indeed target panic. Actually, the statement that only the top shooters get it is a little ironic as I have known quite a few archers who would be called mediocre target archers that were actually great shooters until they got under pressure and the TP set in. I personally think TP is one of the biggest reasons people drop out of archery because it is a terrible thing to not be able to control you bodys' actions.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Highstrung1 said:


> The best way to avoid Target Panic would be to avoid targets......
> 
> Just a thought.


hahahaha.... :laugh:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Dewayne, obviously you have a grasp of what target panic is. Read back through some of the posts if you want a good laugh. One poster said the way to not get target panic is to stay away from targets. Another said only the top shooters are susceptible to getting it, another said they have never had it, another said instinctive archers are less susceptible to it. Target panic has affected every archer at one time or another, it's just some won't admit to it. I've seen instinctive, snap shooters who would never admit to having TP but , in reality, shooting before you even get to anchor is indeed target panic. Actually, the statement that only the top shooters get it is a little ironic as I have known quite a few archers who would be called mediocre target archers that were actually great shooters until they got under pressure and the TP set in. I personally think TP is one of the biggest reasons people drop out of archery because it is a terrible thing to not be able to control you bodys' actions.


Actually Ben, what I said was that target panic RARELY strikes average archers. I am sure that average shooters have gotten a serious, unable to hit a barn from the inside, case of TP, but in 40 plus years of shooting a bow, and 30 years of competition, I personally have yet to see a middle of the road archer get bit by it. 

I have had TP in a serious form, and have helped a dozen archers through a serious form of it, although I truly feel that TP is always only your next shot away if you deviate from a solid shot sequence.


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Never had it, Don't want it, not reading about it, and no way am I even typing it's name...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Actually Ben, what I said was that target panic RARELY strikes average archers. I am sure that average shooters have gotten a serious, unable to hit a barn from the inside, case of TP, but in 40 plus years of shooting a bow, and 30 years of competition, I personally have yet to see a middle of the road archer get bit by it.
> 
> I have had TP in a serious form, and have helped a dozen archers through a serious form of it, although I truly feel that TP is always only your next shot away if you deviate from a solid shot sequence.


Big, my contention was that maybe TP is the reason that some archers are average shooters. Regardless, we both know its' curse firsthand.:smile:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Maybe it's that 'solid shot sequence' that causes you to have it. You know, afraid you might screw up and not do one of the steps right or something, and god forbid that someone might actually see you screw up. Whoa, that would really be bad because, after all, the mission is to show them how great you are.
Maybe that's why the rest of us don't get it. If I don't have a bunch of steps to get through, then I can't possibly screw them up.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Maybe it's that 'solid shot sequence' that causes you to have it. You know, afraid you might screw up and not do one of the steps right or something, and god forbid that someone might actually see you screw up. Whoa, that would really be bad because, after all, the mission is to show them how great you are.
> Maybe that's why the rest of us don't get it. If I don't have a bunch of steps to get through, then I can't possibly screw them up.


I think the problem is that loads of guys who have it don't know they have it. They think 3/4 draw and pluck is what trad shooting should be, whereas in most cases it is either over bowed, under talented or chronic TP.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Maybe it's that 'solid shot sequence' that causes you to have it. You know, afraid you might screw up and not do one of the steps right or something, and god forbid that someone might actually see you screw up. Whoa, that would really be bad because, after all, the mission is to show them how great you are.
> Maybe that's why the rest of us don't get it. If I don't have a bunch of steps to get through, then I can't possibly screw them up.


Or……maybe you don`t screw up because there is little difference between your "A" game and a blindfolded archer? :noidea:

The mission has never been to show how great I am, it has always been to be the best I can. :wink:

BTW, after competing in a BUNCH of national and world tournaments, and giving a wall full of record book critters a dirt nap, fear of anyone seeing me screw up is hardly the case…….and I doubt that is the case for anybody else who has the desire, and stones, to compare their game to fellow shooters across the country and beyond.

Not sure where your smart arse attitude sprang up from Forest…….just keep running. :wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Big Country said:


> Or……maybe you don`t screw up because there is little difference between your "A" game and a blindfolded archer? :noidea:
> 
> The mission has never been to show how great I am, it has always been to be the best I can. :wink:
> 
> ...




Hahaha, you may be right, but, keep this in mind. You have it and I don't. Must be some logical reason, so what's you take? It's not hereditary, or at least I don't think it is, it's not a physical ailment so that leaves a mental condition obviously caused by something. But what? I say stress related, but what causes the stress? Is it self inflicted? Or possibly an anal retentive personality disorder?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Maybe it's that 'solid shot sequence' that causes you to have it. You know, afraid you might screw up and not do one of the steps right or something, and god forbid that someone might actually see you screw up. Whoa, that would really be bad because, after all, the mission is to show them how great you are.
> Maybe that's why the rest of us don't get it. If I don't have a bunch of steps to get through, then I can't possibly screw them up.


Actually Forest, it is precisely that " solid shot sequence" that has enabled me to win national or world tournaments in 5 different decades. As far as screwing up when someone is watching, I would rather be in a situation where I was in a position to screw up than be in the stands watching or worse yet, sitting in my cabin somewhere, criticizing all those who aren't afraid to screw up in front of others. I am as avid a hunter as anyone but the one thing about hunting is it's an individual thing where you can lie all you want to about your prowess because there isn't anyone around to see your screw ups or contradict your assertions. I can't remember all the time I have heard the statement " he's such a great hunter, he gets game every year, yet, how many times did they go out, how many shots did they miss, how many animals did they wound. Those are the unanswered questions we'll never know about all those " great hunters". On the other end of the archery spectrum, everyone knows when you blow the last arrow of a big tournament but there are a lot of archers who have the cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the "ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat". We, who choose to compete in addition to hunt, have a saying when we lose. " That is what they make next weekend for".:smile:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Bigjono said:


> I think the problem is that loads of guys who have it don't know they have it. They think 3/4 draw and pluck is what trad shooting should be, whereas in most cases it is either over bowed, under talented or chronic TP.



Actually I make it a point to practice what you described occasionally just in case I need it. Maybe not exactly as you put it but close. Have you ever been moving in the woods and a deer stood up from his bed to take a peek at you? He won't hang around too long, but if you are well practiced three seconds is enough to close the deal.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Actually Forest, it is precisely that " solid shot sequence" that has enabled me to win national or world tournaments in 5 different decades. As far as screwing up when someone is watching, I would rather be in a situation where I was in a position to screw up than be in the stands watching or worse yet, sitting in my cabin somewhere, criticizing all those who aren't afraid to screw up in front of others. I am as avid a hunter as anyone but the one thing about hunting is it's an individual thing where you can lie all you want to about your prowess because there isn't anyone around to see your screw ups or contradict your assertions. I can't remember all the time I have heard the statement " he's such a great hunter, he gets game every year, yet, how many times did they go out, how many shots did they miss, how many animals did they wound. Those are the unanswered questions we'll never know about all those " great hunters". On the other end of the archery spectrum, everyone knows when you blow the last arrow of a big tournament but there are a lot of archers who have the cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the "ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat". We, who choose to compete in addition to hunt, have a saying when we lose. " That is what they make next weekend for".:smile:



So you're saying self inflicted. In that case do all competitive shooters get it? Or only the anal retentive ones?
Btw, no one has criticized anyone. I'm looking for something besides 'man it's ugly' 'terrible'. Give me something to prove that the condition is more than a mental weakness. Because I'm starting to think it's just another aspect of competition that separates the winners from the losers. In other words, those who can handle the pressure are the winners and those who fall apart become the losers. Sound right to you?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> So you're saying self inflicted. In that case do all competitive shooters get it? Or only the anal retentive ones?


Not sure what you are asking. Say it in terms an old man can understand.:wink:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I first had TP in 2001, it rears it's ugly head every now and then, although it's mild freezing on my Gaps, more a minor frustration than a serious problem, despite this I still managed to shoot 3 National Records and 8 points off a WR this year.

Life would be easier if I had no TP and I was cool as a cucumber but life isn't easy and it's something I live with, on the up side it makes me work at my Form more than anything else, my Form has never been so good, thanks to TP and when I shoot well it feels like I earned it.

You can let it drag you down and give up but you take it as a positive you can sometimes make it work for you.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Not sure what you are asking. Say it in terms an old man can understand.:wink:



Ok, here ya go. IF I were dumb enough to climb 20ft up to a tree stand and jump out I would probably sustain some kind of injury. In my book that would be self inflicted. You put yourself in the position of shooting against other good shooters who stand a chance of beating you. That creates a certain amount of pressure which might be the reason for the target panic. Self inflicted, right? 
So I asked if, in that case, all competitive shooters get it, or just the ones who put lots of pressure on themselves to win. To win everything has to be perfect so they put more and more pressure on until they finally start to lose control at some point.

If the latter is the case then that would certainly separate the winners from the losers. That's not really much different than buck fever except that most people will eventually get over buck fever and move on. But the anal retentive types can't move on. The desire to win manifests itself as a little temper tantrum in which they become angry at themselves for not being perfect all the time.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

itbeso said:


> I am as avid a hunter as anyone but the one thing about hunting is it's an individual thing where you can lie all you want to about your prowess because there isn't anyone around to see your screw ups or contradict your assertions. I can't remember all the time I have heard the statement " he's such a great hunter, he gets game every year, yet, how many times did they go out, how many shots did they miss, how many animals did they wound. Those are the unanswered questions we'll never know about all those " great hunters". On the other end of the archery spectrum, everyone knows when you blow the last arrow of a big tournament but there are a lot of archers who have the cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the "ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat". We, who choose to compete in addition to hunt, have a saying when we lose. " That is what they make next weekend for".:smile:


Hey...thanks for the vindication of my thread..You've made it real easy. .
So..according to you..non competitive hunters are less of a man than those who compete..liars..and go around wounding animals..because no one can see what they are doing..oh..and all don't compete because they shoot badly because of having target panic...and don't even know it. ..

This is about the most absurd egotistical arrogant childish thing I have ever heard or seen posted on this or any other forum. .

You know. .your not even worth debating this with....you have such a egotistical attitude. .and look down on average people. .so much..it is just sad really. .

Mac


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

MAC 11700 said:


> Hey...thanks for the vindication of my thread..You've made it real easy. .
> So..according to you..non competitive hunters are less of a man than those who compete..liars..and go around wounding animals..because no one can see what they are doing..oh..and all don't compete because they shoot badly because of having target panic...and don't even know it. ..
> 
> This is about the most absurd egotistical arrogant childish thing I have ever heard or seen posted on this or any other forum. .
> ...



To Right Mac11700, I would have been harsher to Itbeso, but you said what needed to be said...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Ok, here ya go. IF I were dumb enough to climb 20ft up to a tree stand and jump out I would probably sustain some kind of injury. In my book that would be self inflicted. You put yourself in the position of shooting against other good shooters who stand a chance of beating you. That creates a certain amount of pressure which might be the reason for the target panic. Self inflicted, right?
> So I asked if, in that case, all competitive shooters get it, or just the ones who put lots of pressure on themselves to win. To win everything has to be perfect so they put more and more pressure on until they finally start to lose control at some point.
> 
> If the latter is the case then that would certainly separate the winners from the losers. That's not really much different than buck fever except that most people will eventually get over buck fever and move on. But the anal retentive types can't move on. The desire to win manifests itself as a little temper tantrum in which they become angry at themselves for not being perfect all the time.


Now I get it but I'm now sure that you don't quite understand competition.In the history of archery, no one has ever been perfect. No one has shot a 90x 900 at Vegas, no one has ever shot a 112x 560 field round, and I guarantee you no one has ever hit every animal they have shot at. You state that you have never competed but you then try to tell us what it feels like to go into competition? Just for the record, everyone, target archer and bowhunter alike, chokes at critical times. The winners and the game harvesters are the ones who choke the least at those critical times. The desire to win is nothing like a temper tantrum, that is just you, like many others, trying to get in your little digs at those who chose to compete. Don't feel bad, the world is full of jealous haters who can't or won't accept those who choose to try to be better, whatever the situation. Hunters get over buck fever but target archers can't get over TP? I have had target panic from time to time. I also went 7 years without being beaten on an Nfaa field round, any style of shooting. During that time I had my bouts of target panic, but I have my own way of overcoming it in a short time. Of course, I am , in your opinion , anal retentive, because I like to compete and always try to be the best target archer and hunter I can be. It has always been funny to me though, that when we are out on the archery venue, the people that are always having the best time and most fun are generally the archers in the top group. I can't recall how many times a stranger has shot with us and at the end of the day the comment has usually been, " I 've always been told that you guys were dead serious and cranky, I had more fun today. Thanks". Before you make more of those poor assumptions about serious target archers, you should come out and shoot with us sometime. By doing that, you will probably get your case of target panic, because TP doesn't usually manifest itself when you are shooting by yourself in the yard. On the other hand, you will also get a lot of good archery advice and tips, as well as coming to the realization that we are all, you included, about the same thing, enjoying shooting our bows.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

1shot1 said:


> To Right Mac11700, I would have been harsher to Itbeso, but you said what needed to be said...


1 shot, you are about the most worthless poster on this thread. You don't know the first thing about me, but , you are "going to be harsh on me". That's laughable.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Hey...thanks for the vindication of my thread..You've made it real easy. .
> So..according to you..non competitive hunters are less of a man than those who compete..liars..and go around wounding animals..because no one can see what they are doing..oh..and all don't compete because they shoot badly because of having target panic...and don't even know it. ..
> 
> This is about the most absurd egotistical arrogant childish thing I have ever heard or seen posted on this or any other forum. .
> ...


Mac, you are filled with such hate and inability to understand what has been written by others. Most of your arguments are so unintelligible and rambling that they are hard to decipher. For you to take away what you took away from my post is unbelievable. If you want to consider me arrogant and egotistical, oh, and childish, that is your burden to bear. I'm completely happy in my own skin and will continue to post relevant information and rebuttals. The good thing for you is that you will always have support from some of the other posters who are so insecure they have to try to infer negative intent from my posts. We all know who they are and I have put several of them on Ignore. It's amazing how good the atmosphere gets here when you don't have to listen to their rants over and over


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

itbeso said:


> 1 shot, you are about the most worthless poster on this thread. You don't know the first thing about me, but , you are "going to be harsh on me". That's laughable.


 And I don't care to know you, Calling folks liers, putting down hunters, jealous haters, worth-less etc, because they don't agree with you??? Just shows your "holyer-then-thou" attitude, massive ego and ignorance of what works for others, get over your-self...
To harsh for you??? Restraint keeps me from saying more, but know if you were to spout your comments in some circles, you would be sporting some scars...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

1shot1 said:


> And I don't care to know you, Calling folks liers, putting down hunters, jealous haters, worth-less etc, because they don't agree with you??? Just shows your "holyer-then-thou" attitude, massive ego and ignorance of what works for others, get over your-self...
> To harsh for you??? Restraint keeps me from saying more, but know if you were to spout your comments in some circles, you would be sporting some scars...


LOL, people like you have been going to put scars on me for 66 years and I still have the best looking face on here.I think you would best be served staying as far south in Arizona as you can get.:shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

You guys got to let some of this personal stuff go, it's just killing these threads.

If somebody posts something you don't agree with I think it's best just ignore and post your own opinion, most of us are intelligent enough to pick and chose the correct and relevant information, doesn't matter if your right or wrong the bickering makes all involved look bad.

I was guilty also, I just figured it's better the let the comments pass and focus on the positive stuff that helps people.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> You guys got to let some of this personal stuff go, it's just killing these threads.
> 
> If somebody posts something you don't agree with I think it's best just ignore and post your own opinion, most of us are intelligent enough to pick and chose the correct and relevant information, doesn't matter if your right or wrong the bickering makes all involved look bad.
> 
> I was guilty also, I just figured it's better the let the comments pass and focus on the positive stuff that helps people.


Steve, you're right. Just the testosterone acting up. I will try to do better. Actually, I should have used the ignore button again, which I will do right now.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Hahaha, you may be right, but, keep this in mind. You have it and I don't. Must be some logical reason, so what's you take? It's not hereditary, or at least I don't think it is, it's not a physical ailment so that leaves a mental condition obviously caused by something. But what? I say stress related, but what causes the stress? Is it self inflicted? Or possibly an anal retentive personality disorder?


Actually Forest, I "had" target panic. TP is simple, it is caused by the conscious mind attempting to concentrate on two things at one time. That cannot happen, so there is a mental meltdown. TP is 100% between the ears. People with intelligence and discipline can overcome it with effort.

Yes, it is definitely self inflicted.

Is it an anal retentive personality disorder? I probably fit that description where shooting is concerned, but thinking of some of the people I have helped overcome TP, I would venture to say that some of them would not fit that description.

The best way to NOT get target panic is to be on autopilot with your shot sequence so that the ONLY thing you are consciously doing is aiming.(by whatever aiming method you chose to go with)

The best way to get the affliction to go away? That varies from person to person. For me, it was fairly easy, I got TP while shooting wheelbows, I switched full time to a hinge release, and performed blind bale drills to ingrain what a shot is supposed to feel like. When I would feel it coming back, even when hunting, I would use a hinge release, and it would go away. BTW, killed my biggest black bear with a hinge release. If I ever get the affliction now that I only shoot single strings, I will have to figure out another way to beat it since my fingers are the only release option. 

Well, we will have to followup later in the day, I have a tree stand situated near a hot scrape waiting for me to occupy it. :thumbs_up


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> Hey...thanks for the vindication of my thread..You've made it real easy. .
> So..according to you..non competitive hunters are less of a man than those who compete..liars..and go around wounding animals..because no one can see what they are doing..oh..and all don't compete because they shoot badly because of having target panic...and don't even know it. ..
> 
> This is about the most absurd egotistical arrogant childish thing I have ever heard or seen posted on this or any other forum. .
> ...


I didn't read Itbeso's post in that manner , nor as a personal attack against anyone . I have been hunting for a long time , as I am sure have many here and we'd all know the type Ben is referring too ... 

I am more interested in Ben starting a thread as to how he beat TP !!!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Maybe I still don't understand what target panic is. 

"Panic" is generally what a person does when they don't know what to do or don't think they can do it and feel they have no control over the situation. Not knowing what to do, they do something completely irrational. Rather than taking constructive action, they guess, freeze or just scream.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

benofthehood said:


> I didn't read Itbeso's post in that manner , nor as a personal attack against anyone . I have been hunting for a long time , as I am sure have many here and we'd all know the type Ben is referring too ...
> 
> I am more interested in Ben starting a thread as to how he beat TP !!!


I've been hunting for a long time too (just about 50 years now) and I've only read about the type that Ben is talking about here. I don't think I've ever known any. 

I think it's mostly a "straw man". It's a non-existent (or nearly non-existent) stereotype used to folks.

The shot is the shot. You hit or you miss. If it somehow makes you feel better to know that there are some who might have missed more then more power to you but you still missed.

Competition can be fun and I'm kind of competitive by nature so feel free to stop by and shoot. Just don't hold your breath waiting for me to get all dressed up, travel a long way and spend a lot of *money* to do it. There are other things I'd rather be doing with the time and money. It's that simple.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Big Country said:


> TP is 100% between the ears. People with intelligence and discipline can overcome it with effort.


Dang, I hope I never get it...if I do, I'm screwed.



KPC


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Both hunting shots and high level competition are about one thing - controlling your emotions. 

How many hunters have blown a 15 yard slam dunk can't miss it shot - I have. 

During the 3 rivers shoot down at trad worlds I watched great shooters flat out miss targets at 20 yards - my first shot was a 5 at 15 yards. 

The single biggest thing I have done to improve my accuracy in a hunting situation is competing. 

Matt


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Both hunting shots and high level competition are about one thing - controlling your emotions.
> 
> How many hunters have blown a 15 yard slam dunk can't miss it shot - I have.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. . You compete to improve. You use it as a learning experience for yourself. I believe you, Sharp, Steve, and a few other notables do the same thing.It works for you guys..

Thank you for your very precise answer.......without putting others down with all of the rhetoric a few here love to spout.

Now maybe we can actually have a great discussion about all of this without implying anything bad about hunters who don't compete in these events.

Mac


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Actually Forest, it is precisely that " solid shot sequence" that has enabled me to win national or world tournaments in 5 different decades. As far as screwing up when someone is watching, I would rather be in a situation where I was in a position to screw up than be in the stands watching or worse yet, sitting in my cabin somewhere, criticizing all those who aren't afraid to screw up in front of others. I am as avid a hunter as anyone but the one thing about hunting is it's an individual thing where you can lie all you want to about your prowess because there isn't anyone around to see your screw ups or contradict your assertions. I can't remember all the time I have heard the statement " he's such a great hunter, he gets game every year, yet, how many times did they go out, how many shots did they miss, how many animals did they wound. Those are the unanswered questions we'll never know about all those " great hunters". On the other end of the archery spectrum, everyone knows when you blow the last arrow of a big tournament but there are a lot of archers who have the cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the "ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat". We, who choose to compete in addition to hunt, have a saying when we lose. " That is what they make next weekend for"


Here we go again with the assumptions and generalizations. 

I've taken my share of game animals over the years, and yes, I've won or placed in my share of tournaments too. Having said that, the idea that some people don't choose to compete because they don't have the *"cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat"* is quite a stretch. Some people...a LOT of people, just don't enjoy the competitive side of an endeavor. Some people see it as recreation, and actually work hard at keeping it at that level. On the flipside, some people make EVERYTHING THEY DO a competition...INCLUDING hunting. It's actually a sickness in my opinion. If it's not how many animals they shoot, it's the size of the animals they shoot, or the manner in which they shoot them, the poundage of the bow they used to shoot them, the distance they had to travel to shoot them, the size of the tires and the engine on the truck they drive to where they shoot them. Every aspect of their lives revolves around the need to do it bigger, better, faster or tougher than someone else.

If you really want to talk about self esteem, what does it say about a person's self esteem when they *NEED* to compete? When they *need* to shoot a heavier bow, a better score, a bigger buck, or more trophy animals than someone else? In my opinion, the case could very easily be made that the person with the *healthy* self esteem doesn't need such "accolades" to validate their self worth. What does it say about a person that actually does shoot a 270 or a 280 on a 300 face in their pole barn but has no desire or need to compete with anyone but himself/herself. What does it say about a man or woman that just wants nothing more than to take part in game management (REAL game management, not some sort of trophy management) take a legal deer for the freezer, and just enjoy the process of being a predator in modern society? In terms of self esteem, what does it say about a man or a woman that might like to take a trophy but doesn't *need* to take a trophy to validate their worth? They are satisfied with a clean kill on a legal deer, or a fun day at the range.

Lastly, in terms of the *"agony of defeat,"* I can't speak for anyone else but I can't say I have ever agonized over a missed shot on a target. I've been disappointed sure. Mainly because I knew I could have done better at the time. I've also been absolutely elated to finish 6th or 7th when I knew my score was a personal best. I *HAVE* however *agonized* over a poor shot on an animal. (4 of them in 35+ years of hunting to be exact) Nobody else was there to see them, nobody else was there to judge them, and nobody would have ever known about them unless I chose to tell them, but they are by far the absolute worst experiences I've had shooting a bow. They have shaped my shots (and non-shots) going forward way more than any trophy, medal, or ribbon taken in any competition.

Again, this is just my opinion, but if anyone thinks there is more pressure, more at stake, or more "agony" involved in messing up a shot on a hunk of foam, or a piece of paper, in front of a bunch of people, than messing up a shot on a living, breathing, creature, I suspect you might need to re-evaluate your priorities.

KPC


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Kevin

I agree with much of what you said but for me here is the rub. How do you practice for the emotional pressure of that hunting shot??

I have a tree stand set up in the back yard and I can execute the physical side effortlessly - let's be honest if we are limiting ourselves the shots themselves are quite simple. How do you prepare yourself for the emotional side?? One answer is kill game - easier said than done for some guys. 

For me the closest thing to the excitement and pressure of a hunting shot is competition. Through competition you can recreate that pressure over and over with out the chance of wounding anything other than your pride. 

Matt


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

GEREP said:


> Here we go again with the assumptions and generalizations.
> 
> I've taken my share of game animals over the years, and yes, I've won or placed in my share of tournaments too. Having said that, the idea that some people don't choose to compete because they don't have the *"cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat"* is quite a stretch. Some people...a LOT of people, just don't enjoy the competitive side of an endeavor. Some people see it as recreation, and actually work hard at keeping it at that level. On the flipside, some people make EVERYTHING THEY DO a competition...INCLUDING hunting. It's actually a sickness in my opinion. If it's not how many animals they shoot, it's the size of the animals they shoot, or the manner in which they shoot them, the poundage of the bow they used to shoot them, the distance they had to travel to shoot them, the size of the tires and the engine on the truck they drive to where they shoot them. Every aspect of their lives revolves around the need to do it bigger, better, faster or tougher than someone else.
> 
> ...


Maybe not re-evaluate his priorities. .but..re-evaluate his entire outlook about hunters in general. 

I'm right there with you on everything else. .I too had 2 bad hits on deer..I totally changed from the experience. 

Mac


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GEREP said:


> Again, this is just my opinion, but if anyone thinks there is more pressure, more at stake, or more "agony" involved in messing up a shot on a hunk of foam, or a piece of paper, in front of a bunch of people, than messing up a shot on a living, breathing, creature, I suspect you might need to re-evaluate your priorities.



Agony……no, but look at it from another angle.

A guy, or gal, has bow hunted for a long time. They have learned their lessons well. They are a good hunter, a good shot, and are long past the point of caving in when the moment of truth is in front of them.

Now that same person decides to try competitive archery. They are new to it, never been to a shoot before, not even sure of the rules, etc. They are out of their element. It can be pretty daunting at first.

Hunting and targets are two completely different games, but they each offer lessons that are beneficial for the other one.

It is not necessary to play one in order to be great at the other, but it sure does not hurt, and it gives a guy an excuse to shoot more quality arrows. :thumbs_up


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Kevin
> 
> I agree with much of what you said but for me here is the rub. How do you practice for the emotional pressure of that hunting shot??
> 
> ...


We are each wired different Matt..While competition gives you the best practice to simulate the hunting pressure. .it doesn't for me.

My motivation is the image of wounding I have before heading out the door..and the anticipation of success. .

It's what gives me mental conditioning. .

I hope and pray no hunter ever misses. .and has to feel that gut wrenching sickening feeling..I know most all who do hunt will eventually will in some fashion. .

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Big Country said:


> Agony……no, but look at it from another angle.
> 
> A guy, or gal, has bow hunted for a long time. They have learned their lessons well. They are a good hunter, a good shot, and are long past the point of caving in when the moment of truth is in front of them.
> 
> ...


You do mean getting to go buy some high end built arrows for that shoot. ..correct...:wink:

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> Here we go again with the assumptions and generalizations.
> 
> I've taken my share of game animals over the years, and yes, I've won or placed in my share of tournaments too. Having said that, the idea that some people don't choose to compete because they don't have the *"cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat"* is quite a stretch. Some people...a LOT of people, just don't enjoy the competitive side of an endeavor. Some people see it as recreation, and actually work hard at keeping it at that level. On the flipside, some people make EVERYTHING THEY DO a competition...INCLUDING hunting. It's actually a sickness in my opinion. If it's not how many animals they shoot, it's the size of the animals they shoot, or the manner in which they shoot them, the poundage of the bow they used to shoot them, the distance they had to travel to shoot them, the size of the tires and the engine on the truck they drive to where they shoot them. Every aspect of their lives revolves around the need to do it bigger, better, faster or tougher than someone else.
> 
> ...


[email protected] Good Post Kevin!:thumbs_up


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MAC 11700 said:


> Maybe not re-evaluate his priorities. .but..re-evaluate his entire outlook about hunters in general.
> 
> I'm right there with you on everything else. .I too had 2 bad hits on deer..I totally changed from the experience.
> 
> Mac


Mac, I have no doubt that you have had a lifetime of experiences meeting other bow hunters.

I have as well. In a lot of states, and even other countries. I have also participated in very localized 3-D shoots in a lot of different states, and also ran a very large archery club for 16 years.

It saddens me to say this, but the average guy out there getting ready to hunt has been agonizingly disappointing for me to behold. I have spent so much time scratching up leaves helping to find arrows that I feel like a turkey.

Hopefully your results are much better than mine…….


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MAC 11700 said:


> You do mean getting to go buy some high end built arrows for that shoot. ..correct...:wink:
> 
> Mac


I build my own Mac, and they are ALL too dang expensive. 

BTW, millions of people out of work, and you are trying to be a comedian……:lol:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Kevin
> 
> I agree with much of what you said but for me here is the rub. How do you practice for the emotional pressure of that hunting shot??
> 
> ...


That's ok if it works for you like it and have the time and money to do it.

I did some competing years ago when I lived in the Chicago area and belonged to a club. I didn't find that it even comes close to recreating the pressure/excitement that I get when hunting.

The other night I had a nice buck come in and for a few minutes I though my heart was going to beat right out of my chest. I never experience anything like that in an archery tournament.

Performing in front of people is old stuff for me. Not to say that it never bothers me but I've done a lot of it for most of my working life. I deal with it when I have to but I don't see anything "fun" about it. It's certainly not "fun" like the excitement I get when a nice buck (or even a doe) walks in.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Big Country said:


> I build my own Mac, and they are ALL too dang expensive.
> 
> BTW, millions of people out of work, and you are trying to be a comedian……:lol:


Nope..I don't have to try very hard. .. mom always told me I'm funny :icon_1_lol: 

Mac


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Matt_Potter said:


> Kevin
> 
> I agree with much of what you said but for me here is the rub. How do you practice for the emotional pressure of that hunting shot??
> 
> ...


You bring up a valid question Matt, that's why in my opinion, jumping all over pictures of wounded animals, and acting all holier than thou when you don't know the circumstances, just isn't a good idea. Doing so is usually it's some sort of an ego stroke for those that want everyone to know how good, how proficient, and how ethical they are. Especially when it's done by someone that doesn't hunt.

To your question, in my opinion, there is *NOTHING *like the pressure of attempting to take the life of another living creature. Pressure in some sort of competition is one thing, but the realization that if I screw up, something physically suffers isn't comparable to anything else. If I miss a slam dunk shot on a 12 yard foam alligator in front of a lot of people (which I've done), sure, I'm embarrassed. If I miss a slam dunk shot on a deer, I might be embarrassed, I might be disappointed, but it's the deer that really has to pay the price. Sometimes a long, agonizing price.

There is no better practice for killing stuff, than killing stuff. We used to start our hunters out on small game and they quickly got the feeling of watching a squirrel or rabbit die. Sometimes it wasn't pretty, but it got new hunters over the hump of killing something. If you've ever shot a rabbit in the hind quarters and watched him drag himself away, squealing like a baby, it leaves an indelible impression on you...or at least it damn well should. 

Now, thanks to TV, marketing, and the trophy mindset, many hunters first attempt and killing anything is reserved for what someone else defines as a "quality deer" or a "hog" or a "toad" or whatever else you want to call them this week. They see it as some sort of video game that they play on their smart phones. Hunting has become a competition between other hunters when it was never intended to be that way, but that's a whole different discussion for another day.

To answer your question, there is a learning curve involved in learning how to kill an animal. It is a life-long process. Unfortunately, we have to accept some ugly consequences along the way. The best practice for hunting is hunting. The best practice for killing animals, is killing animals, whether they be squirrels, rabbits, porcupines, raccoons, carp, deer, bear, or moose. As parents, while taking our kids to a 3D shoot or a target competition might be good *shooting* practice, if we want to teach them how to *hunt*, we (and they) would be much better off taking them to the woods with a .22 and looking for squirrels. 

It's not easy to admit, but some of the best lessons I've learned are as a result of some of the most horrendous shots or actions I've taken. You'd be surprised what shooting a Canada Goose in the neck with an arrow at the age of 12 will teach you. Watching that goose swim around the pond, with a broken neck changed me forever. I could try to describe how it makes me sick to my stomach to think about it to this day, but that's not the point. The point is, hunting is sometimes ugly and all the foam deer in the world aren't going to prepare you for putting a real one on the ground. All we can really ask is to know your limits, be honest with ourselves about those limits, and be mature enough to stay within them, no matter how big the "toad" is standing in front of us. NO set of antlers is worth it. When things go wrong, *and they will*, it is a little easier knowing in your own gut that you did your best to avoid it.

KPC


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## Ghost Dancer (Sep 21, 2008)

GEREP said:


> You bring up a valid question Matt, that's why in my opinion, jumping all over pictures of wounded animals, and acting all holier than thou when you don't know the circumstances, just isn't a good idea. Doing so is usually it's some sort of an ego stroke for those that want everyone to know how good, how proficient, and how ethical they are. Especially when it's done by someone that doesn't hunt.
> 
> To your question, in my opinion, there is *NOTHING *like the pressure of attempting to take the life of another living creature. Pressure in some sort of competition is one thing, but the realization that if I screw up, something physically suffers isn't comparable to anything else. If I miss a slam dunk shot on a 12 yard foam alligator in front of a lot of people (which I've done), sure, I'm embarrassed. If I miss a slam dunk shot on a deer, I might be embarrassed, I might be disappointed, but it's the deer that really has to pay the price. Sometimes a long, agonizing price.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. I too have had those youthful experiences that I am occasionally haunted by that pushes me to practice. My conscience punishes me if I wound an animal.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Big Country said:


> Agony……no, but look at it from another angle.
> 
> A guy, or gal, has bow hunted for a long time. They have learned their lessons well. They are a good hunter, a good shot, and are long past the point of caving in when the moment of truth is in front of them.
> 
> Now that same person decides to try competitive archery. They are new to it, never been to a shoot before, not even sure of the rules, etc. They are out of their element. It can be pretty daunting at first.


Daunting? Only if performing well at a tournament is how one measures his/her self worth or what they base their self esteem on.

If you go with the idea that you are going to have fun, meet some great people, and get some good practice in, there shouldn't be anything daunting about it. 

KPC


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

GEREP said:


> Daunting? Only if performing well at a tournament is how one measures his/her self worth or what they base their self esteem on.
> 
> If you go with the idea that you are going to have fun, meet some great people, and get some good practice in, there shouldn't be anything daunting about it.
> 
> KPC


I wouldn't go to have fun because it doesn't seem like fun to me. I've done it a little and it was nothing to write home about.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GEREP said:


> Daunting? Only if performing well at a tournament is how one measures his/her self worth or what they base their self esteem on.
> 
> If you go with the idea that you are going to have fun, meet some great people, and get some good practice in, there shouldn't be anything daunting about it.
> 
> KPC


GEREP, my "self worth" has never had anything to do with shooting a bow, or hunting, and it never will. 

I have never attended an archery tournament where I did not have a LOT of fun. That does not mean I was not nervous the first time I had to shoot in front of guys like Randy Ulmer and Burly Hall.

And since you mentioned it in a previous post, lets talk about hunters who want to shoot BIG animals of their respective species………


Why is it an ego thing, or a measure of self worth when a hunter decides to target trophy animals? I could easily turn that theory around and say that a guy who feels the need to punch his tag on the first milk lipped 1 1/2 year old has self esteem issues…….but I don`t do that. It is your tag, use it in any legal manner you like, but please don`t poor mouth those of us who do not NEED to kill the first thing that walks by. Some of the absolute best hunts I have been on ended with me eating tag soup, and I would gladly pay my money to go through hunts like that again.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Big Country said:


> And since you mentioned it in a previous post, lets talk about hunters who want to shoot BIG animals of their respective species………
> 
> 
> Why is it an ego thing, or a measure of self worth when a hunter decides to target trophy animals? I could easily turn that theory around and say that a guy who feels the need to punch his tag on the first milk lipped 1 1/2 year old has self esteem issues…….but I don`t do that. It is your tag, use it in any legal manner you like, but please don`t poor mouth those of us who do not NEED to kill the first thing that walks by. Some of the absolute best hunts I have been on ended with me eating tag soup, and I would gladly pay my money to go through hunts like that again.


That's great BC, if what I said doesn't apply to you then don't take offense by it.

KPC


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Big Country said:


> GEREP, my "self worth" has never had anything to do with shooting a bow, or hunting, and it never will.
> 
> I have never attended an archery tournament where I did not have a LOT of fun. That does not mean I was not nervous the first time I had to shoot in front of guys like Randy Ulmer and Burly Hall.
> 
> ...


Eating tag soup sucks.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

GEREP said:


> That's great BC, if what I said doesn't apply to you then don't take offense by it.
> 
> KPC


I'm all for free enterprise but, IMO, they've about ruined hunting with dumb TV shows and commercialism. Now it's something that folks with money do on Sunday instead of golf. What they do on Sunday is their business but unless you can pay big money for leases or live in just the right part of the country, you're not going to see much good hunting.

It was better before it got so popular.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

MGF said:


> I wouldn't go to have fun because it doesn't seem like fun to me. I've done it a little and it was nothing to write home about.


MFG - come down and shoot trad worlds next summer I promise you will meet some great guys and have a fun time.

Matt


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Gentlemen

We seem to have gotten far afield from the premise we were asked to discuss in the original post. 

Mac, at the risk of putting words in your mouth, I believe what you asked us to discuss is our thoughts on whether or not, one does not have to achieve the penultimate level of accuracy in order to hunt. You state that one only has to achieve a level of accuracy that is necessary to make a killing shot that is needed for the animal being hunted. I believe you used the term “good enough.” You then go on to attempt to define the parameters required to be “good enough.” In the beginning, several responded that yes, you just have to acquire the level of competency that is needed, while several others replied that no, just being “good enough” is unacceptable. Then the thread evolved (or devolved) from there. What followed was various and sundry responses on why hunting is different or that competition is a valid aid to the hunter or that competition has nothing to do with hunting and is of limited or no value , and on and on, ad nauseaum.

The reason this thread fails, and many like it, is because people are either unwilling, or unable to stay on the original topic. In this case, in order to discuss your premise, there has to be some consensus on just what level of accuracy is “good enough.” Reading back through this entire thread, I’ve only seen where two other posters, in additional to yourself, have attempted to do this. None of the three have any element of commonality. There in lies the crux of the problem, there will never be a consensus on what “good enough” is. Despite all of the posters good intentions, there will never be a resolution to your premise. Unfortunately all that this thread achieved is contentious polarization, and that’s all that will continue.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> MFG - come down and shoot trad worlds next summer I promise you will meet some great guys and have a fun time.
> 
> Matt


I thought about it last year because it was only a couple of hours (or maybe 3) away.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Big Country said:


> Actually Forest, I "had" target panic. TP is simple, it is caused by the conscious mind attempting to concentrate on two things at one time. That cannot happen, so there is a mental meltdown. TP is 100% between the ears. People with intelligence and discipline can overcome it with effort.
> 
> Yes, it is definitely self inflicted.
> 
> ...




Wow, this is one time that being late to the party is a good thing. Some good stuff, interesting posts.

Big Country, thanks for that intelligent and well spoken answer. While it's true that I have not experienced this affliction nor shot against the great ones, I do think I have the capacity to at least imagine what those things would be like.
I found the comment about thinking of two things at once interesting, and it seem to support my 'kiss' rule. For me I try to eliminate the need to think about anything at all except where I want the arrow to hit. May seem like over simplification to some people, but works for me in my pursuit of archery. Of course I also realize that to shoot against some of you guys with the objective of winning, I would be required to change the game plan to some extent. And that's where I think this target panic comes into play. I would likely be trying very hard to make perfect shots, concentrating on the form and aiming to the point of a mental overload. I'm quite sure that could cause a slip up here and that that would feed on itself and eventually become ingrained in my mind so deeply as to cause confidence issues. Target panic?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

pokynojoe said:


> Gentlemen
> 
> We seem to have gotten far afield from the premise we were asked to discuss in the original post.
> 
> ...



You are half right and half wrong here. While it's true that 'good enough' is relative and will never be resolved, it doesn't mean that it should not be discussed. 
The thread is not a fail because sometimes the dirty laundry needs to be washed. Like it or not, this forum has a few different faces and they are not always smiley faces. I have visited some other sites and they are totally boring and predictable due to the requirement for everyone to conform to the notions of a few self proclaimed experts. That doesn't cut it around here and while we will never get everyone to think exactly alike on an even playing field, we do have to at least attempt to smooth the field occasionally. 
Btw we have a moderator and I can assure you if he thought it was a bad thread or possibly counter productive in some way, he would step in. I believe it's going exactly where it needs to go.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

pokynojoe said:


> Gentlemen
> 
> We seem to have gotten far afield from the premise we were asked to discuss in the original post.
> 
> ...


Actually I believe this thread is not a failure.

It has validated my own thoughts and feelings on how some people here choose to treat those who do not enter into some type of formal competition. 

This thread is not a failure because many here agree with me, , and many others who are just starting their own journey have been able to look at what has been posted and decide for themselves as to what they feel. 

People can look for the good just as easily as the bad here....that's what free will is all about. This thread allows folks this choice without fear of being put down for not measuring up in some of these people's eyes for not competing. 

It's very easy to disseminate the 2 opposing veiw points. .

I have stated I have nothing against tournament participation in the least. .it is a good thing. .what I have always been against is the veiw held here by some that it is the only, best, greatest thing. .because of the degree of accuracy required to participate makes it better greater the only thing needed to be good enough to hunt.

Every hunting situation given to archers doesn't require as high a degree of accuracy as what a person needs to attain to be a world champion archer..Sometimes it may require it..if the person who is hunting needs it to be in a certain hunting situation. ..but..he has a choice to change this situation or not shoot..there is no winning or losing in hunting as there is for competition. .

It's unfortunate that some people here can not understand this concept but I have hopes that some people may re-think their own views and try to respect everyone here who doesn't share theirs. .Threads like this one serves this purpose. .

Mac


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Actually Forest, I "had" target panic. TP is simple, it is caused by the conscious mind attempting to concentrate on two things at one time. That cannot happen, so there is a mental meltdown. TP is 100% between the ears. People with intelligence and discipline can overcome it with effort.
> 
> Yes, it is definitely self inflicted.
> 
> ...


Nice post, I would add one of the problems I found with Gap, is to learn/maintain them it needs to be on a conscious level, this is fine during relaxed practice but at some point you have to let those Gaps filter into the subconscious otherwise when reaching a tourney you run into problems where as you rightly said you're trying to do two things at once and the pressure situation is the fuse to the big explosion later down the line. It's not the only thing to cause TP issues but I think it was for me on some days. I find if I do enough balanced tourney and practice then I can let go but if it's just practice, practice without any tourneys then I can run into problems.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

steve morley said:


> Nice post, I would add one of the problems I found with Gap, is to learn/maintain them it needs to be on a conscious level, this is fine during relaxed practice but at some point you have to let those Gaps filter into the subconscious otherwise when reaching a tourney you run into problems where as you rightly said you're trying to do two things at once and the pressure situation is the fuse to the big explosion later down the line. It's not the only thing to cause TP issues but I think it was for me on some days. I find if I do enough balanced tourney and practice then I can let go but if it's just practice, practice without any tourneys then I can run into problems.


Hi Steve..glad you are getting things ironed out with your shooting. .

I've often wondered of late about these TP issues some like yourself have had. .and wonder if your desires to win are just getting in the way of your enjoyment of just shooting. .I don't possibly see how anyone could care so much for winning..I'm certainly not wired like that. .and wonder if folks who suffer from this wouldn't be much better at winning if they just said screw it a little more often and just shot their bows without caring wither they won or not. .

I've shot a few tornaments..nothing like what you do of course. .but in front of people. .and it never bothered me one bit..cause I didn't really care if I won..I was just having fun enjoying hitting where I was looking..

I firmly believe if a person has a even temperament. .even during a stressful situation. .they will always perform better..

I think some folks just have to say screw it. .and stop worrying about every little thing including winning. .

Sorry if this seems lame..it's just my opinion

Mac


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

MGF said:


> I've been hunting for a long time too (just about 50 years now) and I've only read about the type that Ben is talking about here. I don't think I've ever known any.
> 
> I think it's mostly a "straw man". It's a non-existent (or nearly non-existent) stereotype used to folks.


Perhaps that's because you've never been on the receiving end of it. Nearly ever top archer and successful trophy hunter I know has a long list of war stories from dealing with the exact type of people to whom Ben is referring.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Trying to win or thinking you might win half way through a tourney is a recipe for disaster (any experienced tourney shooter knows this) you just shoot one arrow at a time for that moment, no past no future, just that one arrow. 

When I go to a tourney I'm not trying to win or beat the guy next to me, I'm just trying to shoot to my own potential for that day, if I lose and I shot to my potential then I can walk away happy that I did my best but if I lost because I didn't allow myself to shoot at my full potential then I need to look at the reasons and address them, some are beyond control like equipment failure, weather and just something simple like the course builder did a great job.

When I first started with Longbow, I tried to beat the then top dog, I was always around 10 points under him, after about 2 months I gave up trying to beat him and just shot my own game, next tourney I beat him by 100 points, I learnt a simple lesson, shoot your own game, not anybody else..

Some days I go to a tourney I have my 4.5y son shooting with me, I accept I'm not going to be at my best as he requires a lot of attention and encouragement so I focus on the important things like enjoying the time with my Son, I wouldn't swap that moment for a cheap tin medal.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Perhaps that's because you've never been on the receiving end of it. Nearly ever top archer and successful trophy hunter I know has a long list of war stories from dealing with the exact type of people to whom Ben is referring.


What do you mean by "dealing with"?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MAC 11700 said:


> Actually I believe this thread is not a failure.
> 
> It has validated my own thoughts and feelings on how some people here choose to treat those who do not enter into some type of formal competition.
> 
> ...




Well said Mac. I think those very things make this forum unique and interesting, but at times tend to contribute to some miscommunication. That's not inherently a bad thing, we just have to try an sort it out once in a while which could be confusing to a new shooter. But, on the other hand I have seen many posts by those same new members which indicate that they have the aptitude to sort it out and gain from the experience as a whole.
The problem is that there are people on this forum from world champion target shooters to backyard shooters who don't hunt or shoot competitively. In between are people who do both and some who only do one or the other. Most are rather passionate about their particular interests. There is no way to prevent some collisions so we have to try to keep it under control. Not easy to do but doable as long as it is put on the block from time to time.


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## Jasper (Nov 10, 2013)

Mac 11700

I have been shooting the bow for just over 60 years, I taught hunter ed for 20 years and most of that as a master bowhunter instructor. Being a good target shooter does not mean you will be a successful hunter. I know very successful hunters that are not good target shooters, the reverse also applies. The best practice for hunting closely simulates actual hunting conditions. Wandering the forest where you intend to shoot before the season starts and shooting stumps a various ranges and under diverse conditions, is a tried and true method. 

The bow is a short range low velocity weapon. But over the last 6-8000 years it has taken more game than the gun, for obvious reasons. Finding your effective range, that range at which you can regularly hit the kill zone on your intended quarry. The ability to stalk, to get close is more valuable than hitting a dime at 50 yards. 

Shooting targets is one thing, shooting game another. Anyone who says that they do not get an adrenaline surge out of getting close to a trophy big game animal is not telling the truth, and how we deal with that "rush" is just as important as is accurate shooting.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Jasper well said 

I get that way sneaking up on a ground hog and when that feeling goes away I will cease to hunt


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Perhaps that's because you've never been on the receiving end of it. Nearly ever top archer and successful trophy hunter I know has a long list of war stories from dealing with the exact type of people to whom Ben is referring.


What do you mean by 'the exact type of people to whom Ben is referring'?
What type of people is he referring to?
The kind who dare to question what the resident expert says? Sorry, but the world traveling competitive target shooter might not have anything on the guy down the road who is a really good hunter and deer slayer but never heard of target panic.
Wesbrock, I have personally known people who never heard of archery coaches and world competitions but could nail running rabbits with the best of them. It's even possible that some of those people could outshoot some of the champions given the opportunity. See that's the reason we have to have these threads. Some of those 'champions' can't imagine that these people exist so in their minds if a person has not won the world championships or whatever, then that persons opinion has no value. Trust me on this, we are all different and pursue different things with bows and arrows.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

GEREP said:


> Here we go again with the assumptions and generalizations.
> 
> I've taken my share of game animals over the years, and yes, I've won or placed in my share of tournaments too. Having said that, the idea that some people don't choose to compete because they don't have the *"cajones and self esteem to be able to handle the ecstasy of victory or the agony of defeat"* is quite a stretch. Some people...a LOT of people, just don't enjoy the competitive side of an endeavor. Some people see it as recreation, and actually work hard at keeping it at that level. On the flipside, some people make EVERYTHING THEY DO a competition...INCLUDING hunting. It's actually a sickness in my opinion. If it's not how many animals they shoot, it's the size of the animals they shoot, or the manner in which they shoot them, the poundage of the bow they used to shoot them, the distance they had to travel to shoot them, the size of the tires and the engine on the truck they drive to where they shoot them. Every aspect of their lives revolves around the need to do it bigger, better, faster or tougher than someone else.
> 
> ...


Talk about poor assumptions and generalizations! What in the world does NEED have to do with competing or hunting. Your comments about "healthy" activities and "sickness' say a lot about who you are and what you are not. Your choices are you own, but don't go putting me and others down because you don't want to compete in the real world. Actually, i'm sure you do have to compete on an everyday basis. Examples would include keeping your job, courting a girl friend, taking school tests, etc. Your priorities are yours but it sounds to me like you want everybodys priorities to be the same as yours. That will never happen because there are way too many people out there who aren't AFRAID to put themselves on the line, Who aren't AFRAID to admit to missed shots and lost animals, who aren't AFRAID to take a test and actually be graded on it. I think you get my drift and if you choose to be so exemplary as to never NEED to do the things you criticize, then I feel sorry for your non eventful life.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jasper said:


> Mac 11700
> 
> I have been shooting the bow for just over 60 years, I taught hunter ed for 20 years and most of that as a master bowhunter instructor. Being a good target shooter does not mean you will be a successful hunter. I know very successful hunters that are not good target shooters, the reverse also applies. The best practice for hunting closely simulates actual hunting conditions. Wandering the forest where you intend to shoot before the season starts and shooting stumps a various ranges and under diverse conditions, is a tried and true method.
> 
> ...


I agree . I've been at this since 1963 and don't even have to be hunting when I see a big buck to get excited. .I hope I never loose that feeling. .

I know a lot of archers. .shot with a bunch who target shoot mostly..with only hunters who would rather have their finger nails ripped off than to shoot in competition. .to guys like myself who can do both..but..I've never seen such a concentration of target shooters who have such a low regard for the average guy than here..That just because of what they see..that this is the way everyone else in the country is...

This is what this thread is exposing. .these folks who for some reason feel because of who they are..and how great they have done in the tournament settings or have taught people to shoot. ..or what trophies they have mounted on the wall .that they have somehow earned the right to put others down..because they are somehow better. ..and their not..The rebuttals here have come from those types. .and no matter how loud they get in trying to shout some of us here down..it will not do any good. .

So...should folks listen to them doing this with out saying something about it if they feel that this attitude is dameaning..

I think not..that's what discussions are for..not just for some of the egotistical jerks that think they are better..more manly. .stronger...more accurate. .than anyone who chooses not to compete....These jerks somehow like to think that folks are afraid to compete..and they have no clue as to how or why some choose not to. .but in their egotistical thinking that they are right..and everyone else is wrong. .

Look closely at some of what these so-called experts and so-called coaches are actually saying...

Mac


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jasper said:


> Mac 11700
> 
> I have been shooting the bow for just over 60 years, I taught hunter ed for 20 years and most of that as a master bowhunter instructor. Being a good target shooter does not mean you will be a successful hunter. I know very successful hunters that are not good target shooters, the reverse also applies. The best practice for hunting closely simulates actual hunting conditions. Wandering the forest where you intend to shoot before the season starts and shooting stumps a various ranges and under diverse conditions, is a tried and true method.
> 
> ...


Jasper, I can't recall anyone ever saying that they didn't get an adrenaline surge getting close to ANY big game. I know I do and it matches or surpasses any nervousness brought on by big time tournament competition.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

itbeso said:


> That will never happen because there are way too many people out there who aren't AFRAID to put themselves on the line, Who aren't AFRAID to admit to missed shots and lost animals, who aren't AFRAID to take a test and actually be graded on it. I think you get my drift and if you choose to be so exemplary as to never NEED to do the things you criticize, then I feel sorry for your non eventful life.


Who's afraid of admitting missed shots and lost animals? Certainly not me. But thank you very much for your concern.

There is an old saying that goes:

_*"No man on his deathbed ever said I wish I had spent more time at the office."*_

I suspect the same can be said about shooting more big bucks and taking home more first place ribbons. But hey, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

KPC


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> What do you mean by 'the exact type of people to whom Ben is referring'?
> What type of people is he referring to?
> The kind who dare to question what the resident expert says? Sorry, but the world traveling competitive target shooter might not have anything on the guy down the road who is a really good hunter and deer slayer but never heard of target panic.
> Wesbrock, I have personally known people who never heard of archery coaches and world competitions but could nail running rabbits with the best of them. It's even possible that some of those people could outshoot some of the champions given the opportunity. See that's the reason we have to have these threads. Some of those 'champions' can't imagine that these people exist so in their minds if a person has not won the world championships or whatever, then that persons opinion has no value. Trust me on this, we are all different and pursue different things with bows and arrows.


Forest, one of the problems with these threads is people making comments like yours who have no idea how I think or why I think like I do. You have no clue as to what my background is, where I came from, the people I hang out with, or why I refuse to let non competitors on these threads, put down those that do compete. People like Mac, gerep, and 1shot stick together and are always trying to to hide their insecurities by portraying the top target shooters as arrogant, egotistical archers who go around putting down everyone who doesn't do exactly as they do. This caricature is so funny and off base that it is just pathetic. But on the other hand, hopefully the antagonistic and clueless people on these threads will continue to stay to themselves, and those of us who choose to compete and have a good time, will be able to continue to do that without the negativism that being insecure brings.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Well said Mac. I think those very things make this forum unique and interesting, but at times tend to contribute to some miscommunication. That's not inherently a bad thing, we just have to try an sort it out once in a while which could be confusing to a new shooter. But, on the other hand I have seen many posts by those same new members which indicate that they have the aptitude to sort it out and gain from the experience as a whole.
> The problem is that there are people on this forum from world champion target shooters to backyard shooters who don't hunt or shoot competitively. In between are people who do both and some who only do one or the other. Most are rather passionate about their particular interests. There is no way to prevent some collisions so we have to try to keep it under control. Not easy to do but doable as long as it is put on the block from time to time.


Damn Forest, sometimes you amaze me with an insightful post like this one. Good post.:wink:


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## Jasper (Nov 10, 2013)

Why do we use traditional equipment..I believe that it gives us a connection to the hunters of the distant past. When hunting was truly a challenge. I was bow hunting in the mountains of Oregon where I live, as I was working my way across a rock slide, I spotted a basalt dart point lying on a rock. Another hunter had been by this spot some time very long ago. A physical connection to the distant past. We live in a world full of wonder, but sometimes the only way we are able to see it is to step back from the confusion of our society. To take your bow and a quiver full of arrows and head for the forest. To stalk silently between the trees, and if all goes well to get close to game, no matter what size it is. If you do not feel some sort of elation for the ability to do this then perhaps you are already dead. No amount of shooting at paper will ever duplicate those feelings. 

What is the draw of traditional archery..the ability to time travel..


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Forest, one of the problems with these threads is people making comments like yours who have no idea how I think or why I think like I do. You have no clue as to what my background is, where I came from, the people I hang out with, or why I refuse to let non competitors on these threads, put down those that do compete.
> 
> 
> People like Mac, gerep, and 1shot stick together and are always trying to to hide their insecurities by portraying the top target shooters as arrogant, egotistical archers who go around putting down everyone who doesn't do exactly as they do.


Oh, the irony.

By the way, I never put down any target archers or competitive archers but please, don't let that get in the way of your good story.

KPC


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Jasper said:


> . Anyone who says that they do not get an adrenaline surge out of getting close to a trophy big game animal is not telling the truth, and how we deal with that "rush" is just as important as is accurate shooting.


 I must be wired differently, When an animal is coming in or I'm stalking closer, I am calm and focused at the task at hand. It is only after the shot, after the no shot, or blown stalk that I get the shakes and feel the effects of adrenaline dump...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jasper said:


> Why do we use traditional equipment..I believe that it gives us a connection to the hunters of the distant past. When hunting was truly a challenge. I was bow hunting in the mountains of Oregon where I live, as I was working my way across a rock slide, I spotted a basalt dart point lying on a rock. Another hunter had been by this spot some time very long ago. A physical connection to the distant past. We live in a world full of wonder, but sometimes the only way we are able to see it is to step back from the confusion of our society. To take your bow and a quiver full of arrows and head for the forest. To stalk silently between the trees, and if all goes well to get close to game, no matter what size it is. If you do not feel some sort of elation for the ability to do this then perhaps you are already dead. No amount of shooting at paper will ever duplicate those feelings.
> 
> What is the draw of traditional archery..the ability to time travel..


It is very difficult to get non hunters to understand what you have just so eloquently put forth. Your feelings mirror those of mine and, I'm sure, many of our fellow hunters.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jasper said:


> Being a good target shooter does not mean you will be a successful hunter. I know very successful hunters that are not good target shooters, the reverse also applies.
> 
> Shooting targets is one thing, shooting game another.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

GEREP said:


> Oh, the irony.
> 
> By the way, I never put down any target archers or competitive archers but please, don't let that get in the way of your good story.
> 
> KPC


Absolute no irony here, Gerep. And your sarcasm is par for the course when there is no substance in your argument.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Jasper said:


> Why do we use traditional equipment..I believe that it gives us a connection to the hunters of the distant past. When hunting was truly a challenge. I was bow hunting in the mountains of Oregon where I live, as I was working my way across a rock slide, I spotted a basalt dart point lying on a rock. Another hunter had been by this spot some time very long ago. A physical connection to the distant past. We live in a world full of wonder, but sometimes the only way we are able to see it is to step back from the confusion of our society. To take your bow and a quiver full of arrows and head for the forest. To stalk silently between the trees, and if all goes well to get close to game, no matter what size it is. If you do not feel some sort of elation for the ability to do this then perhaps you are already dead. No amount of shooting at paper will ever duplicate those feelings.
> 
> What is the draw of traditional archery..the ability to time travel..


Nice post Jasper...:thumbs_up


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, one of the problems with these threads is people making comments like yours who have no idea how I think or why I think like I do. You have no clue as to what my background is, where I came from, the people I hang out with, or why I refuse to let non competitors on these threads, put down those that do compete. People like Mac, gerep, and 1shot stick together and are always trying to to hide their insecurities by portraying the top target shooters as arrogant, egotistical archers who go around putting down everyone who doesn't do exactly as they do. This caricature is so funny and off base that it is just pathetic. But on the other hand, hopefully the antagonistic and clueless people on these threads will continue to stay to themselves, and those of us who choose to compete and have a good time, will be able to continue to do that without the negativism that being insecure brings.



Whoa there Buddy, that's fightin talk.:wink: AND, the question was directed at someone else because I didn't know what 'type of people' you had mentioned that Wesbrock made reference to in his post. He has not answered yet, so it's hard to continue that line of discussion further.
Whatcha wanna bet I know more about you than you think I do? Mr. Ben there's this new thing that everyone is talking about called research. Even us old guys are doing it. Might not have caught on yet on the left coast, but a big deal most places. No need for me to list all the things I know here because I'm sure most of the more savvy people already have the same information. It's out there man, you're an open book. The sad part is that you probably have long ago forgotten how to make real iced tea. That's just a hint about what I might know. 
Now here's the kicker Bud, you left me off the list of insecure people who recognize arrogance and egotistical attitudes. You must include me because I'm always here, the defender of the backyard, instinctive shooting hunter types who have no claim to fame. The people whose name can't be found on any list of big timers, but still have a right to their opinion in the forum. I know, that's a hard pill to swallow but with some good iced tea it will go down. 
I hope you know that I'm just picking on ya for the most part. But seriously, don't you agree with any part of The original post? Don't you agree that we have two different schools of thought about things from people with completely different positions on most subjects? Can you agree that both sides might need to take the others position into consideration?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Here is some more irony... 



Jasper said:


> No amount of shooting at paper will ever duplicate those feelings.





itbeso said:


> It is very difficult to get non hunters to understand what you have just so eloquently put forth. Your feelings mirror those of mine and, I'm sure, many of our fellow hunters.


Seeing that what Jasper was eluding to is what some of us have been saying all along.





itbeso said:


> And your sarcasm is par for the course when there is no substance in your argument.


No sarcasm intended. Would you mind pointing out where I was putting down any competitive archers?

Thank you,

KPC


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

Easykeeper said:


> Nice post Jasper...:thumbs_up





itbeso said:


> Forest, one of the problems with these threads is people making comments like yours who have no idea how I think or why I think like I do. You have no clue as to what my background is, where I came from, the people I hang out with, or why I refuse to let non competitors on these threads, put down those that do compete. People like Mac, gerep, and 1shot stick together and are always trying to to hide their insecurities by portraying the top target shooters as arrogant, egotistical archers who go around putting down everyone who doesn't do exactly as they do. This caricature is so funny and off base that it is just pathetic. But on the other hand, hopefully the antagonistic and clueless people on these threads will continue to stay to themselves, and those of us who choose to compete and have a good time, will be able to continue to do that without the negativism that being insecure brings.



Again, I don't care to know anything about your life, record, who you hang-out with, due to your way of coming across as 'this is the only way' and anyone who says different is a "lier' 'worthless' 'clueless, etc...
I have NEVER put down any target shooter, top-tier or bottom of the barrel. I have stated my opinion of what works for me and if that doesn't match with yours, YOU are first on the attack....

Never had TP, killed and recovered EVERY Deer I've ever shot (75-100 with recurve-200plus with a rifle,shotgun), don't get the shakes till AFTER the shot/no shot/blown stalk, instinctive, (hope I didn't just jinx myself, cause Yeah for me hunting is a mental game)...

Thanks for the great post Jasper...


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## Jasper (Nov 10, 2013)

There are not many shooting sports that give you the ability of "recycling" your ammo. I make my arrows out of hard wood doweling and I have some that have been in use for over 10 years, and the feathers look like it. I can scrape off the old feathers and put new ones on and I am good for many more shots. Another real draw to traditional archery is that it is simple, the less moving parts the better. I have friends that are compound bow shooters, and when we go hunting it seems like they spend as much time tinkering with their bows as they do hunting. A little wax on the bow string of my long bow and I am done tinkering for the day. 

I think that the distillation of this thread has to do with acceptable accuracy, and that is a purely subjective issue. I practice on stumps and stuff out to 100 yards, just because I can. My acceptable accurate range when hunting is 25 yards or less. Bowhunting is not about how much game you can kill, but time spent in the forest, game seen, working the stalk, and if you are able to take something that is extra. 

The old standard is the paper plate at 25 yards, not target accuracy but acceptable hunting accuracy. Along with the adrenaline thing is the caution about antlers, no matter how good a shot you are, the bigger the sent of antlers the higher the probability is that is where your arrow will go....


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Whoa there Buddy, that's fightin talk.:wink: AND, the question was directed at someone else because I didn't know what 'type of people' you had mentioned that Wesbrock made reference to in his post. He has not answered yet, so it's hard to continue that line of discussion further.
> Whatcha wanna bet I know more about you than you think I do? Mr. Ben there's this new thing that everyone is talking about called research. Even us old guys are doing it. Might not have caught on yet on the left coast, but a big deal most places. No need for me to list all the things I know here because I'm sure most of the more savvy people already have the same information. It's out there man, you're an open book. The sad part is that you probably have long ago forgotten how to make real iced tea. That's just a hint about what I might know.
> Now here's the kicker Bud, you left me off the list of insecure people who recognize arrogance and egotistical attitudes. You must include me because I'm always here, the defender of the backyard, instinctive shooting hunter types who have no claim to fame. The people whose name can't be found on any list of big timers, but still have a right to their opinion in the forum. I know, that's a hard pill to swallow but with some good iced tea it will go down.
> I hope you know that I'm just picking on ya for the most part. But seriously, don't you agree with any part of The original post? Don't you agree that we have two different schools of thought about things from people with completely different positions on most subjects? Can you agree that both sides might need to take the others position into consideration?


The sad answer is he can't. .see..he has backed himself into the corner,dug such a deep hole, ,to come out now and admit he was actually wrong..would crush his ego..

He says that I have insecurities about archery..the man does not got a clue as to this. .I've been in competition before. .and will be at some point in the near future. .and have no fear or trepidation of shooting against anyone. .even compound shooters..not because I am that accurate. .because I don't let anyones reputation scare me..nor getting up in front of people when shooting, golfing, racing a car, speaking or any other thing..I don't scare....not for trying to win a prize..or doing any other sport..

He has had the same opportunity as anyone else here to review what has been said. .he just refuses to take responsibility for his poor attitude and demeaning things he has said. .He doesn't care..and thinks he is above reproach. .

The sad thing is. .it doesn't have to be this way. .We can all learn from one another with out all the rhetoric as put downs..

Mac


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## Jasper (Nov 10, 2013)

One and all

I have read the posts with reasonable care and I do not think that anyone is knocking anyone else, I belong to a number of forums and it is easy to take offense where none is intentionally meant. We are here because this is a serious past time for each and everyone. I started shooting the bow at age four I am 70 now, I have been at it for a while. I hate to see feeling get ruffled, sometimes a deep breath is required before posting. 

The real intent of these forums is to give folks of a like mind the opportunity to sit around the camp fire, pass the "jug" and tell stories. As Saxon Pope said "String to the cheek and shaft to the barb". Everything else is 9 to 5... :darkbeer: J


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Whoa there Buddy, that's fightin talk.:wink: AND, the question was directed at someone else because I didn't know what 'type of people' you had mentioned that Wesbrock made reference to in his post. He has not answered yet, so it's hard to continue that line of discussion further.
> Whatcha wanna bet I know more about you than you think I do? Mr. Ben there's this new thing that everyone is talking about called research. Even us old guys are doing it. Might not have caught on yet on the left coast, but a big deal most places. No need for me to list all the things I know here because I'm sure most of the more savvy people already have the same information. It's out there man, you're an open book. The sad part is that you probably have long ago forgotten how to make real iced tea. That's just a hint about what I might know.
> Now here's the kicker Bud, you left me off the list of insecure people who recognize arrogance and egotistical attitudes. You must include me because I'm always here, the defender of the backyard, instinctive shooting hunter types who have no claim to fame. The people whose name can't be found on any list of big timers, but still have a right to their opinion in the forum. I know, that's a hard pill to swallow but with some good iced tea it will go down.
> I hope you know that I'm just picking on ya for the most part. But seriously, don't you agree with any part of The original post? Don't you agree that we have two different schools of thought about things from people with completely different positions on most subjects? Can you agree that both sides might need to take the others position into consideration?


Forest, you have perpetuated the same misconception about me that many others have, and that is that I am down on archers who only want to shoot in the backyards, or by themselves. I think the reason that myth got started was because some of those archers tried to put down the top tournament archers in order to soothe their insecurities, and I took exception to that. I have stated MANY times that I don't care where or when you shoot, just as long as you are having fun doing it. I have also stated MANY times that I could care less how you shoot, yet you still have the same crowd coming on stating that I am down on instinctive, or gapping, or whatever. I have shot every style of nonsight shooting there is except point of aim at the target. I know which is the most accurate and I try to lead people in that direction if I can.The only time I care what style someone shoots is when they tell me they want to be as accurate as possible. Do you really think I give a rats butt what someone does in their backyard or out behind their barn. Give me a little credit. The ONLY times I have ever made sarcastic remarks about those scenarios is when some yo yo was trying to put down tournament archers to make himself try to look better. And tell me, where in the world did you or anyone else get the idea that I don't realize there are two or more sides to every story? Because I have a recognizable name and stand up for my viewpoint, that makes me arrogant and egotistical? I have more backyard shooting friends than you can imagine, I got a lot of them into archery and helped them learn to shoot. Some choose not to get into competitive archery and the reasons are varied, but I respect their reasons because not all of us are wired the same or have the same life opportunities.Forest, have I ever stomped on someones opinion who wasn't trying to put others down or post BS that I knew was untrue? If you have done your research, I know the answer to that question is no. Now, let's get to the type of people I was referencing on the hunting side of things, keeping in mind there isn't anyone out there who is more enthusiastic about hunting than me. After 44 years of shooting and hunting, my experience has been that there are a lot of hunters who aren't the most truthful when talking about their hunting exploits and my point was that most can make any claim to fame they want because generally, there isn't anyone around to contradict their stories. That's why a lot of archers won't step on the shooting line, because ,then, everyone can see our screw-ups. And, please, don't pull others tricks and accuse me of lumping all hunters into the same group, that is not what I said. Final thought, I am all about defending top archers from jealous haters, you are all about defending backyard shooters and so called "no namers". If there were no posts putting one or the other down, then we would be able to get on exchanging archery concepts. Agreed?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> The sad answer is he can't. .see..he has backed himself into the corner,dug such a deep hole, ,to come out now and admit he was actually wrong..would crush his ego..
> 
> He says that I have insecurities about archery..the man does not got a clue as to this. .I've been in competition before. .and will be at some point in the near future. .and have no fear or trepidation of shooting against anyone. .even compound shooters..not because I am that accurate. .because I don't let anyones reputation scare me..nor getting up in front of people when shooting, golfing, racing a car, speaking or any other thing..I don't scare....not for trying to win a prize..or doing any other sport..
> 
> ...


Mac, you are a bit funny even though you may not realize it. You feel you have to defend youself with all the things you have done yet you've never been scared. I've had knives to my throat, guns in my face, and I have been scared. How you handle that kind of adversity determines whether you live to see another day or not. You go way beyond reasonable sensitivity in trying to defend yourself and your interpretations of what I may or may not have been trying to say are lacking at best. Read my response to Forestgump and take it at face value rather than trying to infer other meanings From your post, I can't tell whether you have been hurt or not, but, if so, I hope the recovery is a quick one.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MAC 11700 said:


> The sad answer is he can't. .see..he has backed himself into the corner,dug such a deep hole, ,to come out now and admit he was actually wrong..would crush his ego..
> 
> He says that I have insecurities about archery..the man does not got a clue as to this. .I've been in competition before. .and will be at some point in the near future. .and have no fear or trepidation of shooting against anyone. .even compound shooters..not because I am that accurate. .because I don't let anyones reputation scare me..nor getting up in front of people when shooting, golfing, racing a car, speaking or any other thing..I don't scare....not for trying to win a prize..or doing any other sport..
> 
> ...



Mac, maybe I read a lot of posts on here all wrong as it is tough to determine exactly what is meant without hearing tone and inflection like when face to face. That said, it is funny for lack of a better word that several members here think that the target shooters always have an agenda against those that only bow hunt, while it seems to me that the later group almost always jumps all over the former group when they mention target shooting for practice on accuracy.

I pay attention to everybody's posts here, well, almost everybody`s, because I am recently back to single strings after a long affair with the wheel bows, and prior to the wheel bows I was young and clueless with my Ben Pearson. I did not even know another bow hunter back then, and how I ever killed the few deer I did back then amazes me still. :lol: Blind pig and acorn comes to mind. Anyway, I pay attention because I am learning as much as possible about these sticks, as I have no intention of ever going back to the wheel.

With a wheel bow, unless you decide to shoot fingers, there is only one way basically to shoot them, so all these aiming methods and stances used with single strings are foreign to me. I have tried several methods, and still play around with them from time to time, but there is no doubt which one I will stick with. It most closely resembles my wheel bow days, and is by far the easiest one for me to get accurate with.

All that aside, back to your post……like I said, I think it is tough to truly tell what is meant sometimes online, and although I have never met itbeso, I get a completely different feeling about the man than you and a couple of others here do. I don`t think for a minute that he feels above reproach, and I doubt anything would crush his ego. I think he is an older dude who is sorta set in his ways, and he is still pissed as hell about the uncalled for poor treatment of Larry Yein by the same group that always throws the penalty flag when a target archer posts, even before they can digest what was said. I get a kick out of him, and like several others here from both sides of the targets/hunting debate, try to pick up any bit of knowledge from his lifetime of experience.

Oh, BTW, while in the traditional target world I am a complete newbie compared to a bunch of guys around here, myself, itbeso, Larry Yein, Matt Potter, J. Wesbrock, and a few others have been bow hunting for a heck of a lot longer than we have been playing target games, and if for some strange reason we had to pick either hunting or targets only, I bet I would have company in hunting camp. :wink:

The only difference I see between both camps here is that one camp can never get enough of trying to improve while the other camp feels(and probably correctly)that they are good enough to hunt. That ain`t much of a difference in my book.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Mac, maybe I read a lot of posts on here all wrong as it is tough to determine exactly what is meant without hearing tone and inflection like when face to face. That said, it is funny for lack of a better word that several members here think that the target shooters always have an agenda against those that only bow hunt, while it seems to me that the later group almost always jumps all over the former group when they mention target shooting for practice on accuracy.
> 
> I pay attention to everybody's posts here, well, almost everybody`s, because I am recently back to single strings after a long affair with the wheel bows, and prior to the wheel bows I was young and clueless with my Ben Pearson. I did not even know another bow hunter back then, and how I ever killed the few deer I did back then amazes me still. :lol: Blind pig and acorn comes to mind. Anyway, I pay attention because I am learning as much as possible about these sticks, as I have no intention of ever going back to the wheel.
> 
> ...


Big, I have a little different perspective on being "good enough". Most,if not all, of the posters make the" good enough" to be all about accuracy. While I think accuracy is very important, there are so many more factors involved in hunting. Good woodsman skills are a very important part of the" good enough "equation. Taking that further, good woodsman skill that applies to different game animals is important. Generally, hunting here in the west is a shock to someone who has only hunted whitetails, and it took me a while to get used to sitting in a tree stand waiting for an animal to come by when I went back to Kansas and Nebraska to whitetail hunt. I have to agree with the posters on here who say that everyone must determine their own "good enough" skill level and I don't feel anyone else has the right to be that persons critic.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Big Country said:


> The only difference I see between both camps here is that one camp can never get enough of trying to improve while the other camp feels(and probably correctly)that they are good enough to hunt. That ain`t much of a difference in my book.


For what it's worth I don't think anyone has ever said that they don't constantly try to improve, certainly not me. I shoot year round trying to improve. I work on form almost daily, doing blind bale work. I shoot ten times as many arrows at 10 feet than I do at 20 yards. I just don't feel the need to compete against other people in order to improve, or keep sharp for hunting. In archery, it's not like your "competing" against other people anyway. You are always competing against yourself. You shoot the best you can on a given day, and they shoot the best they can on a given day, and the one who has the best score that day wins. There is no defense in archery, there are no blocked shots, hip checks, tackling or interceptions. You shoot the best you can and so does the next guy.


KPC


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Mac, maybe I read a lot of posts on here all wrong as it is tough to determine exactly what is meant without hearing tone and inflection like when face to face. That said, it is funny for lack of a better word that several members here think that the target shooters always have an agenda against those that only bow hunt, while it seems to me that the later group almost always jumps all over the former group when they mention target shooting for practice on accuracy.
> 
> I pay attention to everybody's posts here, well, almost everybody`s, because I am recently back to single strings after a long affair with the wheel bows, and prior to the wheel bows I was young and clueless with my Ben Pearson. I did not even know another bow hunter back then, and how I ever killed the few deer I did back then amazes me still. :lol: Blind pig and acorn comes to mind. Anyway, I pay attention because I am learning as much as possible about these sticks, as I have no intention of ever going back to the wheel.
> 
> ...


I really,really like the idea of a hunting camp somewhere with members being able to sit around a fire and BS late into the night. Might make it a little rough getting up early the next morning, though. Someone please put something together.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

GEREP said:


> For what it's worth I don't think anyone has ever said that they don't constantly try to improve, certainly not me. I shoot year round trying to improve. I work on form almost daily, doing blind bale work. I shoot ten times as many arrows at 10 feet than I do at 20 yards. I just don't feel the need to compete against other people in order to improve, or keep sharp for hunting. In archery, it's not like your "competing" against other people anyway. You are always competing against yourself. You shoot the best you can on a given day, and they shoot the best they can on a given day, and the one who has the best score that day wins. There is no defense in archery, there are no blocked shots, hip checks, tackling or interceptions. You shoot the best you can and so does the next guy.
> 
> 
> KPC


Generally, the archers who grasp that concept are the ones who have the most success in competitions.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GEREP said:


> For what it's worth I don't think anyone has ever said that they don't constantly try to improve, certainly not me. I shoot year round trying to improve. I work on form almost daily, doing blind bale work. I shoot ten times as many arrows at 10 feet than I do at 20 yards. I just don't feel the need to compete against other people in order to improve, or keep sharp for hunting. In archery, it's not like your "competing" against other people anyway. You are always competing against yourself. You shoot the best you can on a given day, and they shoot the best they can on a given day, and the one who has the best score that day wins. * There is no defense in archery, there are no blocked shots, hip checks, tackling or interceptions.* You shoot the best you can and so does the next guy.
> 
> 
> KPC


I actually saw this at an IBO national shoot maybe around 1995??? A lady pro shooter walked over to talk to someone in our group while one of the group was coming to full draw. She stepped on a long stick, it jumped up, smacking the shooter square in the sack, causing him to dump an arrow halfway to the target. He ended up having to take a blank on the target.

Who says archery isn`t a contact sport? :lol:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

itbeso said:


> I really,really like the idea of a hunting camp somewhere with members being able to sit around a fire and BS late into the night. Might make it a little rough getting up early the next morning, though. Someone please put something together.


Let me know what kind of hunt you have in mind Ben. I can get pretty good deals on great outfitters I book for, and if it isa hog hunt you are interested in, I have 2,400 acres in east Texas that is full of hogs, feeders, and treestands.


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## Jasper (Nov 10, 2013)

Perhaps the old adage "use it or loose it" applies. I do not think that anyone believes that once they attain a level of proficiency, that they can maintain it with out practicing. Like Alice, you have to "run as fast as you can just to stay where you are". Anyone who is an ethical hunter, will do what they need to do to remain proficient. As with many things in this life you must let your conscience be your guide. Again I hate to see this become a point of contention, the only person were are really accountable to is ourselves.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Generally, the archers who grasp that concept are the ones who have the most success in competitions.



Agreed. And the fact that one grasps and even embraces the concept doesn't mean they have any need or desire to compete with anyone other than themselves, with others or *by* themselves. Even further from the truth is the notion put forth by some that because one doesn't care to compete, he doesn't care or feel the need to improve.

KPC


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

"I have to agree with the posters on here who say that everyone must determine their own "good enough" skill level and I don't feel anyone else has the right to be that persons critic."

Mac
Is this the kind of "validation" you were looking for? I think it is. Perhaps there is some consensus after all. If you agree, then perhaps the level of accuracy you speak of, isn't a matter of degree but a different kind of "accuracy" defined by the parameters and skills one acquires in their chosen pursuit. On this, I can agree.

I see a hint of the "cavernous divide" slowly closing. Think "Inclusion" and not "Exclusion"

And now I'm done.

Farewell


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

GEREP said:


> Agreed. And the fact that one grasps and even embraces the concept doesn't mean they have any need or desire to compete with anyone other than themselves, with others or *by* themselves. Even further from the truth is the notion put forth by some that because one doesn't care to compete, he doesn't care or feel the need to improve.
> 
> KPC


GEREP, you might have to show me the post where somebody said that failing to compete in tournaments shows the person doesn`t care to improve. 

I know that I have said something along the lines of……..field hunter rounds(and they surely do not have to be in a competition)are possibly the single best practice tool for any type of archery endeavors, sans trick shooting. I was promptly told that it all depended on the archers goals. I will agree with that if the archers goals are…..

1. trick shooting
2. Sucking profusely at shooting a bow
3…………see #`s 1 and 2


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If I won every competition I entered, killed every animal I dropped the string on, I would still try to improve. Not just my shooting, but every small part of each endeavour. Speck


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Speck1 said:


> If I won every competition I entered, killed every animal I dropped the string on, I would still try to improve. Not just my shooting, but every small part of each endeavour. Speck


:darkbeer:

I have killed just over 98% of all critters I ever dropped the string on, and lost over 98% of the national tournaments I have entered…….I REALLY need to continue along the road to perfection. :lol:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> If I won every competition I entered, killed every animal I dropped the string on, I would still try to improve. Not just my shooting, but every small part of each endeavour. Speck


:thumbs_up


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Big Country said:


> :darkbeer:
> 
> I have killed just over 98% of all critters I ever dropped the string on, and lost over 98% of the national tournaments I have entered…….I REALLY need to continue along the road to perfection. :lol:


We all do Big. Although 98% on live game is a pretty damn good record! Speck


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Big Country said:


> :darkbeer:
> 
> I have killed just over 98% of all critters I ever dropped the string on, and lost over 98% of the national tournaments I have entered…….I REALLY need to continue along the road to perfection. :lol:


And I'll bet you are ok with that. Not necessarily satisfied, but okay.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Crazy thread.

I've been bowhunting for almost 30 years [not nearly as long as some] and the reason why I keep at it is due to the fact- I can NEVER master every aspect. 

Archery tournaments were developed to showcase talented archers FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHER ARCHERS TO LEARN and that has been my experience. I have not seen the tiniest amount of elitist attitude from the top archers I've met in person and all have been more than gracious and helpful to a total stranger- me.

A guy can only learn so much in his own backyard...........but if that is your preference be glad your hobby is archery and not hang gliding.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Big Country said:


> I know that I have said something along the lines of……..field hunter rounds(and they surely do not have to be in a competition)are possibly the single best practice tool for any type of archery endeavors, sans trick shooting. I was promptly told that it all depended on the archers goals. I will agree with that if the archers goals are…..
> 
> 1. trick shooting
> 2. Sucking profusely at shooting a bow
> 3…………see #`s 1 and 2


Good stuff, and I agree.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Speck1 said:


> We all do Big. Although 98% on live game is a pretty damn good record! Speck


Far and away the best lesson I ever learned Speck was that I either have a shot, or I don`t. I could not imagine anybody wanting to take big, mature critters more than I want to, but I have let solid 190 class whitetails walk because of a small branch that "might" deflect my arrow. Big or small, wounding and losing an animal is not something any of us want to do. In over 200 tries I have lost 2 and had one suffer for 24 hours before I caught up to it and finished what I started…….those 3 situations are always with me when I am ready to take a shot.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, you have perpetuated the same misconception about me that many others have, and that is that I am down on archers who only want to shoot in the backyards, or by themselves. I think the reason that myth got started was because some of those archers tried to put down the top tournament archers in order to soothe their insecurities, and I took exception to that. I have stated MANY times that I don't care where or when you shoot, just as long as you are having fun doing it. I have also stated MANY times that I could care less how you shoot, yet you still have the same crowd coming on stating that I am down on instinctive, or gapping, or whatever. I have shot every style of nonsight shooting there is except point of aim at the target. I know which is the most accurate and I try to lead people in that direction if I can.The only time I care what style someone shoots is when they tell me they want to be as accurate as possible. Do you really think I give a rats butt what someone does in their backyard or out behind their barn. Give me a little credit. The ONLY times I have ever made sarcastic remarks about those scenarios is when some yo yo was trying to put down tournament archers to make himself try to look better. And tell me, where in the world did you or anyone else get the idea that I don't realize there are two or more sides to every story? Because I have a recognizable name and stand up for my viewpoint, that makes me arrogant and egotistical? I have more backyard shooting friends than you can imagine, I got a lot of them into archery and helped them learn to shoot. Some choose not to get into competitive archery and the reasons are varied, but I respect their reasons because not all of us are wired the same or have the same life opportunities.Forest, have I ever stomped on someones opinion who wasn't trying to put others down or post BS that I knew was untrue? If you have done your research, I know the answer to that question is no. Now, let's get to the type of people I was referencing on the hunting side of things, keeping in mind there isn't anyone out there who is more enthusiastic about hunting than me. After 44 years of shooting and hunting, my experience has been that there are a lot of hunters who aren't the most truthful when talking about their hunting exploits and my point was that most can make any claim to fame they want because generally, there isn't anyone around to contradict their stories. That's why a lot of archers won't step on the shooting line, because ,then, everyone can see our screw-ups. And, please, don't pull others tricks and accuse me of lumping all hunters into the same group, that is not what I said. Final thought, I am all about defending top archers from jealous haters, you are all about defending backyard shooters and so called "no namers". If there were no posts putting one or the other down, then we would be able to get on exchanging archery concepts. Agreed?



Well just dammit, looks like I failed miserably at getting my point across and that got me a pretty good whoopin. itbeso, just because I said that you left me off the list of people who recognize arrogance and egotistical attitudes did not mean I was pointing the finger at you. Although I will say that you put forth some effort in defending such people.
Sorry, but I never intended to perpetuate anything about you, I even stated that I was mostly teasing ya some. But now that you mention it good man, I could show some posts where your words were somewhat less than ,well, shall we say nice.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Big Country said:


> Far and away the best lesson I ever learned Speck was that I either have a shot, or I don`t. I could not imagine anybody wanting to take big, mature critters more than I want to, but I have let solid 190 class whitetails walk because of a small branch that "might" deflect my arrow. Big or small, wounding and losing an animal is not something any of us want to do. In over 200 tries I have lost 2 and had one suffer for 24 hours before I caught up to it and finished what I started…….those 3 situations are always with me when I am ready to take a shot.


Very true, and something every hunter should carry with them to the woods. Speck


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## Dalton63841 (Oct 26, 2013)

Beendare said:


> Archery tournaments were developed to showcase talented archers FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHER ARCHERS TO LEARN and that has been my experience. I have not seen the tiniest amount of elitist attitude from the top archers I've met in person and all have been more than gracious and helpful to a total stranger- me.
> 
> A guy can only learn so much in his own backyard...........but if that is your preference be glad your hobby is archery and not hang gliding.


I would LOVE to compete in an archery tournament. At this point I have no doubt that I would not place very high at all, but it would be a great experience. That having been said, for me tournament shooting would involve a 400+ mile drive...


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Dalton63841 said:


> I would LOVE to compete in an archery tournament. At this point I have no doubt that I would not place very high at all, but it would be a great experience. That having been said, for me tournament shooting would involve a 400+ mile drive...



Are you sure about that? I thought Mo. would probably have some 3d tourneys. Lots of hunting and home to one of the most popular bow makers. I'm sure there are others but Black Widow comes to mind at the moment. Could it be there are shoots going on that you are just not aware of ?


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## Dalton63841 (Oct 26, 2013)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Are you sure about that? I thought Mo. would probably have some 3d tourneys. Lots of hunting and home to one of the most popular bow makers. I'm sure there are others but Black Widow comes to mind at the moment. Could it be there are shoots going on that you are just not aware of ?


I googled a bit, but only found 2. One in Kansas City, and another over on the southwest corner of the state. It's possible I may not be finding them all though.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Dalton, I have driven the whole way from PA to Missouri for several years just to shoot a 2 day local 3-D archery tournament with friends from out there. Even took my wife along. Some of the best fun a guy can have. Find the closest archery pro shop and ask them where to find schedules for the local clubs.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

pokynojoe said:


> "I have to agree with the posters on here who say that everyone must determine their own "good enough" skill level and I don't feel anyone else has the right to be that persons critic."
> 
> Mac
> Is this the kind of "validation" you were looking for? I think it is. Perhaps there is some consensus after all. If you agree, then perhaps the level of accuracy you speak of, isn't a matter of degree but a different kind of "accuracy" defined by the parameters and skills one acquires in their chosen pursuit. On this, I can agree.
> ...


It's amazing when folks actually take the time to discuss differences of opinions what good can come of it then. 

Yes..I feel vindicated. .because my hopes on this is coming to fruition. ...it is the first step..but nessasary so we all can learn from one another..I wasn't sure it would work. .but..time will tell. 

There's no need for division. .and won't be as long as pride doesn't get in the way...from anyone one..



Mac


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Now I get it but I'm now sure that you don't quite understand competition.In the history of archery, no one has ever been perfect. No one has shot a 90x 900 at Vegas, no one has ever shot a 112x 560 field round, and I guarantee you no one has ever hit every animal they have shot at. You state that you have never competed but you then try to tell us what it feels like to go into competition? Just for the record, everyone, target archer and bowhunter alike, chokes at critical times. The winners and the game harvesters are the ones who choke the least at those critical times. The desire to win is nothing like a temper tantrum, that is just you, like many others, trying to get in your little digs at those who chose to compete. Don't feel bad, the world is full of jealous haters who can't or won't accept those who choose to try to be better, whatever the situation. Hunters get over buck fever but target archers can't get over TP? I have had target panic from time to time. I also went 7 years without being beaten on an Nfaa field round, any style of shooting. During that time I had my bouts of target panic, but I have my own way of overcoming it in a short time. Of course, I am , in your opinion , anal retentive, because I like to compete and always try to be the best target archer and hunter I can be. It has always been funny to me though, that when we are out on the archery venue, the people that are always having the best time and most fun are generally the archers in the top group. I can't recall how many times a stranger has shot with us and at the end of the day the comment has usually been, " I 've always been told that you guys were dead serious and cranky, I had more fun today. Thanks". Before you make more of those poor assumptions about serious target archers, you should come out and shoot with us sometime. By doing that, you will probably get your case of target panic, because TP doesn't usually manifest itself when you are shooting by yourself in the yard. On the other hand, you will also get a lot of good archery advice and tips, as well as coming to the realization that we are all, you included, about the same thing, enjoying shooting our bows.



Ok, itbeso, here is one of those posts that leaves the reader with the impression that the writer is lashing out in anger. I'm sure you don't mean it as it sounds. Most of these statements seem to be a response to an exchange that took place last night between myself and another poster. A friendly exchange btw.
1. I actually said, to the other poster, that I could imagine that stiff competition would likely be very stressful, not exactly telling anyone how it feels to compete.
2. I actually said, to the other poster, that a person might cause their own shooting problem by fighting with themselves in the pursuit of perfection. Sort of like a temper tantrum. Not aimed at you btw, and not trying to get any digs in at anyone. Simply a comment to another poster in a friendly exchange.
3. "The world is full of jealous haters who can't or won't accept those who try to be better". Well, I don't think that there are any jealous haters in this forum or this particular discussion. Hopefully you can see how those words might be perceived by others.
4. By coming to shoot with the you guys (the big boys I guess) then I would get my case of target panic? Well heck, that's a good reason to NOT shoot with you. Or does that mean that I would be skeered of you guys?  

Mr. Ben, I'm not going further on this and I really hate pointing things like this out. I just hope you take it constructively and don't see it as a personal attack because it's meant to show how others might perceive things.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Well just dammit, looks like I failed miserably at getting my point across and that got me a pretty good whoopin. itbeso, just because I said that you left me off the list of people who recognize arrogance and egotistical attitudes did not mean I was pointing the finger at you. Although I will say that you put forth some effort in defending such people.
> Sorry, but I never intended to perpetuate anything about you, I even stated that I was mostly teasing ya some. But now that you mention it good man, I could show some posts where your words were somewhat less than ,well, shall we say nice.


Only in response to some negative post, I assure you. I am not, nor have ever been, of the mindset to start a negative thread. And my previous post to you was hopefully informational only, as it was never meant to show you up or deliver a whoopin.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> I know that I have said something along the lines of……..field hunter rounds(and they surely do not have to be in a competition)are possibly the single best practice tool for any type of archery endeavors, sans trick shooting.


That SURELY does NOT apply to ALL archers! For some people who don't understand what is involved with True Instinctive aiming...they might actually believe your opinion applies to ALL archers.



Big Country said:


> I was promptly told that it all depended on the archers goals.


You forgot 2 others...ABILITY and PERSONALITY :wink:

It's just plain common sense that not all training and practice techniques will apply to ALL archers just as specific styles, form and aiming choices do NOT.

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That SURELY does NOT apply to ALL archers! For some people who don't understand what is involved with True Instinctive aiming...they might actually believe your opinion applies to ALL archers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You never disappoint Ray. :thumbs_up

BTW, if one has the ability to physically launch an arrow, what would prevent them from launching it at a field round target? And what type of personality would prevent the same?

I guess I could include distance archers to the list, but instinctive aimers…….nope. Those folks are still aiming, and still trying to hit a target.

How about if I change my original statement to say that field rounds would benefit target archers and bow hunters?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Ok, itbeso, here is one of those posts that leaves the reader with the impression that the writer is lashing out in anger. I'm sure you don't mean it as it sounds. Most of these statements seem to be a response to an exchange that took place last night between myself and another poster. A friendly exchange btw.
> 1. I actually said, to the other poster, that I could imagine that stiff competition would likely be very stressful, not exactly telling anyone how it feels to compete.
> 2. I actually said, to the other poster, that a person might cause their own shooting problem by fighting with themselves in the pursuit of perfection. Sort of like a temper tantrum. Not aimed at you btw, and not trying to get any digs in at anyone. Simply a comment to another poster in a friendly exchange.
> 3. "The world is full of jealous haters who can't or won't accept those who try to be better". Well, I don't think that there are any jealous haters in this forum or this particular discussion. Hopefully you can see how those words might be perceived by others.
> ...


Forest, The coming out and shooting with us was sincere, and, yes, there is always a chance of getting target panic when shooting in certain circles. I don't take perceived slights personally, but I do take them as a put down of top class archers, and draw the line there about letting the put downs continue without rebuttal. I disagree with you about the jealousy and haters on these threads, I have a couple of them on ignore. That is just my viewpoint contrasting with yours, no big deal. Coming from my perspective, the following observations are where I see things going south on some threads. In my opinion, there are far too many non competitors or those who compete, but aren't real serious about it, on here who feel they have to make derogatory remarks about "serious" shooters. The irony in all that is that practically all of the top archers I have known are the first to help, offer advice, spend hours of their time helping complete strangers. Their objective is to help others get better at archery and learn more about their equipment. The other thing that happens is one of being on the internet where even the most innocent of statements can be interpreted in 5 different ways and usually is. As far as you and I are concerned, I am cool and I hope you are also.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I can attest to what Ben said about the top guys. I have shot with Jim Powell, Sharp, Ryan Ramsey, Chris Swhandt, Scott Antczak, Spanky Brooks, and all were more than willing to help in any way. Speck


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Big Country said:


> Far and away the best lesson I ever learned Speck was that I either have a shot, or I don`t. I could not imagine anybody wanting to take big, mature critters more than I want to, but I have let solid 190 class whitetails walk because of a small branch that "might" deflect my arrow. Big or small, wounding and losing an animal is not something any of us want to do. In over 200 tries I have lost 2 and had one suffer for 24 hours before I caught up to it and finished what I started…….those 3 situations are always with me when I am ready to take a shot.


Man I know what your saying 

In my hunting career I've lost 2 Whitetail and one Elk and it haunts me terrible


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> BTW, if one has the ability to physically launch an arrow, what would prevent them from launching it at a field round target? And what type of personality would prevent the same?


Nothing prevents an archer launching an arrow at a target other than the archer...BUT just launching an arrow at any target is NOT necessarily good practice. It can be allot of fun...BUT may NOT apply to the primary or main goal of a specific archer.



Big Country said:


> I guess I could include distance archers to the list, but instinctive aimers…….nope. Those folks are still aiming, and still trying to hit a target.


Anyone pointing a bow and arrow at a target with the intent of shooting it with the arrow IS aiming to some degree or another...so I have no idea what your point is there.



Big Country said:


> How about if I change my original statement to say that field rounds would benefit target archers and bow hunters?


You could do or say whatever you want...but it doesn't mean I'll agree with it.

That being said...if you would include the word 'some' or 'many' in front of target archers and bowhunters in your statement...than I could agree with it whole heartedly :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Dalton63841 said:


> I googled a bit, but only found 2. One in Kansas City, and another over on the southwest corner of the state. It's possible I may not be finding them all though.


There isn't anything around here either. There's a shop in town but it's all compounds and indoors. I go in to visit and shoot once in a while but there's no competition.

I found a club on the net that isn't too far away. I got the guy on the phone and he said the range was closed. He said he was going to call and post here when they got it up and running but I never heard anything. That was a year ago.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Me and Katrin had locals come and shoot in our Tourist spot in Tallinn, it was obvious there was an interest, she had a dream to teach local kids Olympic Archery, Gov said they had no money spare to support us so we used our own, this is our second indoor season and we have 73 shooters, we have more wanting to join but not enough space to take them. started off with the kids wanting to shoot then some of the parents joined in. The interest in strong, lot of Archery in movies that inspires people to try.

If you have no Trad tourneys or Archers in your area then make your own club, if you build it they will come :thumbs_up

Out of all those Archers we have one compound.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm going to start a separate thread for this but it also seems to fit this thread well.

Those of you who read my posts probably know that I missed an easy shot at a deer last year and never got another chance. Since then (I actually started before that) I shoot like a mad man. I even dropped business accounts to have more time to shoot. I shoot just about every day, though, some days I just have to be away at work. Many days, I shoot ALL day.

My shooting isn't bad. I don't shoot many 300 rounds but my highest is a 273 and my last three were like a 248 and two that were right at 260 (I don't remember the exact scores. I shoot and I shoot and I shoot. I read/watch anything on archery I can find and I take every aspect of the shot apart and practice it. Are you getting the picture?

However, I just can't seem to hit a deer no matter what I do. I went out hunting this morning. I wasn't in the stand for 30 seconds and I hear a deer walking up behind me. I have a shooting lane there but I didn't dare turn around. She came around, walked right under my stand and calmly walked down my mowed path. Perfect slightly quartering away shot at a little over 15 yards (the very distance I shoot at the most). I had all the time in the world to calm down, plan my shot, get into position and so on. I can hit a beer can almost every time at that distance and if I miss it, I don't miss by much.

Woosher! I didn't see of hear the arrow hit but the deer circled around. I saw both side of her well and she didn't have a mark on her. Believe it or not, she gave me the exact same shot again. I was calm, I didn't rush it. I waited until she was in position and looking away and I shot. This time, I heard the arrow hit something but it didn't sound like deer. It didn't sound like a hit on the mowed path she was standing in either...which is just a thud. The deer took a couple of jumps at the shot, slowed down and stood for a moment and then slowly walked off.

I had to come in for more arrows (I only had three with me) and I won't know for certain until I go find the arrow but I'm pretty sure that I didn't hit anything that time either.

I can hit targets. I could hit targets with you folks watching. Apparently though, I can NOT hit a deer. I'm more than interested to read all your wisdom because I sure as hell do NOT know what else to do!

Edit: Just to be clear...as soon as I warm up a bit and let things settle out there, I'll be on the arrow and trail. If there's any indication at all that I so much as put a scratch on that creature, I'll track her to the ends of the earth if need be!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

steve morley said:


> Me and Katrin had locals come and shoot in our Tourist spot in Tallinn, it was obvious there was an interest, she had a dream to teach local kids Olympic Archery, Gov said they had no money spare to support us so we used our own, this is our second indoor season and we have 73 shooters, we have more wanting to join but not enough space to take them. started off with the kids wanting to shoot then some of the parents joined in. The interest in strong, lot of Archery in movies that inspires people to try.
> 
> If you have no Trad tourneys or Archers in your area then make your own club, if you build it they will come :thumbs_up
> 
> Out of all those Archers we have one compound.


Just that easy huh? Make your own club? Is that something you do in your spare time? With your "spare money" you could buy some land and set up a nice range and get some good insurance too, right?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Your trying to hard....and forcing the shot....Visualize the flight of the arrow from release to the spot you want it to hit..then draw and release it.

Don't even think about shooting until you are dead calm..Watch the deer..try to just look at it. .and see everything about it..

Mac


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Speck1 said:


> I can attest to what Ben said about the top guys. I have shot with Jim Powell, Sharp, Ryan Ramsey, Chris Swhandt, Scott Antczak, Spanky Brooks, and all were more than willing to help in any way. Speck


Absolutely! I've watched Scott help people who ended up outshooting him, and then be genuinely happy for them. That's class, and it's the norm with that crowd.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

MGF said:


> Just that easy huh? Make your own club? Is that something you do in your spare time? With your "spare money" you could buy some land and set up a nice range and get some good insurance too, right?


In UK it was too expensive to buy land so most clubs rent their land. When I first moved to Yorkshire there wasn't a single Field club in the county, in the 10 years I lived there I helped start 3 clubs and designed/build the courses for National 3D's held in Yorkshire one year. I think Yorkshire has around 5-6 Field clubs now, it just take a few dedicated people to get the ball rolling and others join in. :thumbs_up

We have around 10 Field/3D clubs in Estonia (you can drive north to south in 3 around hours) Katrin had a great idea a few years ago to run mobile shoots, we have around 10 locations in Estonia, I turn up early in the morning build the course, shoot it then pack it all away, keeps things interesting rather than shoot the same few courses every week, we have one this weekend, joint effort with Latvia, I build one course and they build second for a 2 day tourney, hard work but good FUN, two of us can build a 24 3D target course in just over 2 hours (keeps me fit and saves on Gym fees lol).


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF, not an uncommon problem. I`m no Dr. Phil, but I think this stems from wanting something so bad that you cannot focus on what is most important…..making a clean shot. You have to figure out a way to make the deer just another target. I know it is not easy, I went through roughly the same thing myself many years ago. I just could not seem to put the arrow exactly where I wanted to, leading to some long tracking jobs. Given enough opportunities, you will get it worked out.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Big Country said:


> MGF, not an uncommon problem. I`m no Dr. Phil, but I think this stems from wanting something so bad that you cannot focus on what is most important…..making a clean shot. You have to figure out a way to make the deer just another target. I know it is not easy, I went through roughly the same thing myself many years ago. I just could not seem to put the arrow exactly where I wanted to, leading to some long tracking jobs. Given enough opportunities, you will get it worked out.


That's it. I haven't been able to make the deer just another target. But how do I miss a whole deer? I'd almost be happy with a tracking job because that would mean that I hit something.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Big Country said:


> MGF, not an uncommon problem. I`m no Dr. Phil, but I think this stems from wanting something so bad that you cannot focus on what is most important…..making a clean shot.


It's partly focus, but target shooters run the same gambit. It's anxiety as well and in a big way you don't notice about yourself at the time. Anxiety floods you system with adrenaline, which affects your muscles in degrees you don't notice but change things significantly enough from a relaxed practice session that the misses are way noticeably different - kinda like when your groups open up when muscle changes happen in practice.

I would say that anxiety is probably not going away when drawing on an animal (hard to practice away), but in target, a good way combat it is to one; have a good rehearsed (ingrained) shot sequence; two, practice a lot under that anxiety till it's no more; and three, learn your form to use more skeleton, less muscle. Using more big muscle means more inconsistency when that adrenaline pumps your system up.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> That's it. I haven't been able to make the deer just another target. But how do I miss a whole deer? I'd almost be happy with a tracking job because that would mean that I hit something.


Are you totally clueless in regards to what you did or didn't do to miss the deer? Do you feel you're on autopilot? Are you picking a specific spot or basically just shooting at the whole deer?

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF said:


> That's it. I haven't been able to make the deer just another target.* But how do I miss a whole deer?* I'd almost be happy with a tracking job because that would mean that I hit something.


MGF, I don`t know what aiming method you use, and I don`t mean to say that any method is the problem, but I come from a wheelbow with sights background, and now I stringwalk and use my arrow tip for a sight. This means that for me, nothing has changed where hunting is concerned. I got much better at hitting critters where I want to hit them when I did two things…..

1. Convinced myself that they are just another target.
2. Pick a spot……..I pick a spot where I want to hit. That spot is smaller than a dime. Aim small-miss small.

Now to the hunting aspect of these shots……


I do not shoot at wired critters unless it is a chip shot……under 10 yards. An eastern or southern whitetail can completely duck a perfect shot from 20 yards even coming from a 300fps wheelbow. Midwest deer tend to stand there and catch an arrow almost as well as an elk.

Also, very important to practice with ALL of your hunting gear on…….gloves, facemask, hunting coat/coats, etc. Many a shot has been muffed by a guy who practiced his butt off wearing shorts and a t-shirt only to find string contact with his hunting cloths on.

Quiet bow……I don`t know anything about your bow, but quiet is extremely important. I have video taped my hunts, and hunts of several others for the last 15 years, most of them with wheelbows. It is amazing to slow the tape down and see just how fast critters, deer especially can and do react to a bow firing. Since most of us hunt with an initial arrow speed of 160-190fps these whitetails can do a lot of moving, making a perfectly aimed shot look like a really bad one.

Lots of stuff to make right in order to be consistently successful, but when it all comes together is sure can be gratifying.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> That's it. I haven't been able to make the deer just another target. But how do I miss a whole deer? I'd almost be happy with a tracking job because that would mean that I hit something.




I don't have a clue. I had a friend a few years ago who shot five arrows at a deer at fairly close range and missed. He thought something was wrong with his bow, a compound at that. He could hit everything else just fine.:dontknow:
You have recently said that you can pretty much point the arrow at the spot and shoot with acceptable accuracy at short distance. But, my best guess, you forgot to pick a spot and shot at the whole deer. ???


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I don't have a clue. I had a friend a few years ago who shot five arrows at a deer at fairly close range and missed. He thought something was wrong with his bow, a compound at that. He could hit everything else just fine.:dontknow:
> You have recently said that you can pretty much point the arrow at the spot and shoot with acceptable accuracy at short distance. But, my best guess, you forgot to pick a spot and shot at the whole deer. ???


Instinctive shooters I'm sure have all gone through this by listening to those voices.... pick the spot, burn some hair.... and shoot... almost always over the back. I suppose that there are some who have the ability to just look at a spot and shoot, but somewhere along the way, most In My Opinion, require some reference... or sight picture and point of aim.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Please don't take this the wrong way but, have you tried a simple single pin sight ??

By having a pin you force yourself to pick a spot. You can set it at 20 yards and just gap up or down from there. 

Matt


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but, have you tried a simple single pin sight ??
> 
> By having a pin you force yourself to pick a spot. You can set it at 20 yards and just gap up or down from there.
> 
> Matt


Yes..... we forced my son to do this with an eyebolt actually... which served, it turned out several benefits, a 15 yard pin (hole) inside top was maybe 8 top of the top 5 and I know that the bottom of the eye got him to 20.... :grin:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Well yes, I practice with my hunting gear on and from my stands and I shoot pretty good...as long as there isn't a deer present. There's nothing that I can not hit...except a deer!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but, have you tried a simple single pin sight ??
> 
> By having a pin you force yourself to pick a spot. You can set it at 20 yards and just gap up or down from there.
> 
> Matt


I have shot with a make-shift sight for tuning and "diagnosis". I haven't tried it for hunting and I'd rather not.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> Well yes, I practice with my hunting gear on and from my stands and I shoot pretty good...as long as there isn't a deer present. There's nothing that I can not hit...except a deer!


Well now... this seems to more of a disease than failure.... You'd think the cold would damp yer fever.... :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Well now... this seems to more of a disease than failure.... You'd think the cold would damp yer fever.... :laugh:


The important thing is that you are entertained.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> The important thing is that you are entertained.


Always.... :grin:


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

MGF…I just had a good chuckle…and not at you. I was remembering a friend that put down his compound and joined our ranks…in a big way. First time in his treestand he ended up having to come down because he was out of arrows…and his backquiver was loaded when he started.

Anyhow…can’t be sure what might help…seems the bow is quiet enough, if you’re able to get off more than one shot. Myself, I’m always simplifying the program…and how my mind arranges matters kinda depends on the moment…and whatever dividends I can resource from recent efforts.

Reading this kinda places not knowing where the arrow went, very much on the fault side of the equation…which could lead things in a couple of different directions. If you have bright fletching and where the deer was standing is fresh in your mind, then knowing whether the shot was high or low should be easy enough to deduce.

It's easy to relate to such matters…cause there is just no getting away from the mind games that keep begging to be addressed. I’ve done the “shoot at leaves” routine from a treestand countless times…and, as I’ve come to interpret this…the leaf is on the ground, but what I want to hit is a couple of feet above the ground…so, for treestand practice I now have a foam target that I’ll place an object on top of (…cans on top of sticks could be a substitute). This might seem a small matter… but I cannot understate how my mental processing improves when I’ve addressed another part of the equation.

Short story…a few nights ago I wagered all the marbles on I buck I’d been seeing lately. As things developed I let 3 does walk…but as it was getting late, my priorities started to change when the 4th appeared. As I was looking at her I was sure I could make the shot…but…I had doubts about there being enough light to see where the arrow hit her. I was not even thinking that if I’d missed I might have also been clueless…but again, I probably would have been able to guess at how I’d missed…after…I reached the ground. Be that as it may, I have zero doubt that being clueless on the first shot would have put me at a huge disadvantage if I’d gotten the chance to take a second.(There’s more to that particular story…with the 5th deer that came by being one I’ve wanted to take for some time…but figuring that I’d already made the decision to close shop, and for all the right reasons, I just enjoyed the moment.)

I suppose the point I’m trying to make is…your practice would also come up short if you weren’t able to know where your arrows were going…so any expectations would be unrealistic. Beyond that…I’m sure you’ll be able to get ‘er done…just got to keep tweaking the program in that direction. Good Hunting…and Enjoy, Rick.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks for the comments.

I could tell by where I found the arrows that they both went high and neither one touched the deer. They were clean except for the mud on the broad head.

Hey, I got interrupted so I'll be back with more later.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

MGF, as others have already said, most likely not picking a spot or not bending at the waist. Both usually cause high misses, even with a tricked out cbow. I don't know how much hunting experience you have, but you will connect, and after you do it once, the puzzle will be easier to put together when the next opportunity comes along. Good luck! Speck


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> I could tell by where I found the arrows that they both went high and neither one touched the deer. They were clean except for the mud on the broad head.
> 
> Hey, I got interrupted so I'll be back with more later.


If you're shooting from a tree stand, you have an additional trajectory issue of your arrows flying higher than you expect. To a lesser degree this also happens when shooting uphill.

Don't know is this has anything to do with anything, but is something we sometimes forget to pay attention to.

Aloha... :beer:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

steve morley said:


> In UK it was too expensive to buy land so most clubs rent their land. When I first moved to Yorkshire there wasn't a single Field club in the county, in the 10 years I lived there I helped start 3 clubs and designed/build the courses for National 3D's held in Yorkshire one year. I think Yorkshire has around 5-6 Field clubs now, it just take a few dedicated people to get the ball rolling and others join in. :thumbs_up
> 
> We have around 10 Field/3D clubs in Estonia (you can drive north to south in 3 around hours) Katrin had a great idea a few years ago to run mobile shoots, we have around 10 locations in Estonia, I turn up early in the morning build the course, shoot it then pack it all away, keeps things interesting rather than shoot the same few courses every week, we have one this weekend, joint effort with Latvia, I build one course and they build second for a 2 day tourney, hard work but good FUN, two of us can build a 24 3D target course in just over 2 hours (keeps me fit and saves on Gym fees lol).


I admire your attitude and effort but I don't know that I'm quite up to all that.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

The shot.

I think I paid too much attention to the process and not enough attention to the target. I've had accuracy suffer at times during practice when working on one or more individual aspects of the shot. I think I just put too much effort into trying to make sure that I did everything exactly right when I should have just shot the deer.

But, all the emphasis on the "process" was supposed to be the fix for last year's miss. Last year's miss was exactly the same. I shot over a doe that was standing in almost the exact same spot. I'm getting tired of missing the same deer already.

I could be wrong though. If I knew the answer I wouldn't have missed. LOL


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF, after reading all of the posts you have made on the subject, it seems as though you have covered all the bases pertaining to shooting with your hunting cloths and out of tree stands, and it is not your shooting ability until faced with a deer. Buck fever might be too strong of a term, but it seems that you are having a problem remembering exactly how you normally shoot when it is time to dump the string on a deer.

Not sure if something like this would help you or not, but almost 20 years ago now I started hunting the midwest for whitetails, on really good land with really BIG bucks. By this point in my life I had already killed a tractor trailer load of deer with stick and string, but the first year out there, even though I never had a shot opportunity, I did see a couple of jumbo bucks that almost got into range. I don`t think I could have hit one of them if I had the chance. I was so shook up that I was almost happy when they turned and went in another direction. Once i got back home(where we don`t grow bucks like that) I thought about this for several weeks. I came up with the idea of going to a park in the mountain area of my state that has monster bucks in a few pens. You can walk up to these pens and watch those big bucks from literally a few feet away. I made the two hour drive and literally stayed there for a few hours(while my wife bought a pickup truck load of antiques :dohwatching those bucks and thinking things over. My next trip to the midwest gave me my first opportunity for a buck that sailed way past the P&Y minimum score, and I was solid as a rock……until I watched my arrow blast through his lungs, then I turned sissy again in a hurry. :lol: I have never had a problem getting the job done on a deer, or any other species that I have killed since that time.

Something like that might help you or not……


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF said:


> The shot.
> 
> I think I paid too much attention to the process and not enough attention to the target. I've had accuracy suffer at times during practice when working on one or more individual aspects of the shot. I think I just put too much effort into trying to make sure that I did everything exactly right when I should have just shot the deer.
> 
> ...


This is a new bit of information now……

I am not a level IV olympic coach, but I have taught a bunch of people who were getting started, and my advice is always the same. Quality practice, and blind baling to ingrain the shot process until your subconscious runs the physical aspect of shooting. The ONLY thing you consciously think of is aiming. When I hunted with wheelbows, I just aimed the bow, the shot went off when it was time. I never recall thinking……shoot now. Same thing now that I am shooting sticks. I don`t consciously realize that I want to dump the string…..it just goes, mostly when the time is right. :wink:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I won't say I wasn't a little excited but I had plenty of time to settle down and think about what I was going to do before it was time to shoot. I might have been worried she'd move before I got the shot off or thinking too much about wanting to hit her. Is that like target panic?

I do remember focusing on the arrow which I do sometimes, Maybe I didn't pick a spot.

It's possible that I didn't bend enough at the waist but the angle wasn't very steep. The platform is about 12 ft and she was 15 yards (or a shade more) out.

Yes, I shoot in my hunting clothes and from my stands, although, I haven't been practicing from the stand over the last few days because there's been deer around. I've been hunting all my life but I've done a lot more small game hunting than deer hunting. I've also shot a lot of small game (rabbits and squirrels) with the bow.

As it relates to this thread, for the past year I've tried to emphasize the process and de-emphasizing aiming. Isn't that the advice we get? 

In any case I miss deer either way. I need a plan. I really don't know how to practice for this except to find more deer to shoot at. I really think that a big part of my problem is that shots at deer are so rare where I hunt. Last year I had one shot. This season is about 6 weeks old and yester day was my first shot.

It's hard to think of it as just another target when it takes all year to get one shot. That's where the pressure comes from. Deer season often boils down to one shot, all or nothing. No pressure there. LOL

Maybe we need a new term "Situational Target Panic"? Well let it be known that I am not the guy who stinks on targets but claims to be deadly on fur. I'm deadly on tin cans (my target of choice) but no danger at all to deer fur. LOL


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

If you think about what you are doing when you are going to shoot. ..........your going to miss. .

You need a plan? Just like I told you yesterday. .....pick your spot....stay focused on it draw and shoot..don't hold..dont aim..see your gap in your pheriphrial vision and let it go.

Your letting your routine get in the frigging way of putting your arrow in that spot on the deer..and now your over thinking it..just like you were over thinking it on your stand...

Hell we all miss sooner or later. .quit dwelling on it....and cheer up...

You lost focus on the spot and shot over the deer 2x

So what if you missed and don't get another chance. .hell your better off than a lot of folks..like me..lol...lol...lol..I haven't even got to go hunting yet...lol..

Stop beating yourself up over it..chit happes for a reason. .Who knows, that doe may breed and produce a record book buck for you. .ya never know. and best of all. ..you didn't wound it....

Focus bro...focus...

Mac

.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> The shot.
> 
> I think I paid too much attention to the process and not enough attention to the target. I've had accuracy suffer at times during practice when working on one or more individual aspects of the shot. I think I just put too much effort into trying to make sure that I did everything exactly right when I should have just shot the deer.
> 
> ...




:jeez::confused2::BangHead::set1_punch: In that order!:jeez: What is there to think about? Lick your chops maybe thinking about the tender backstrap for dinner, but thinking about what the back muscles are doing? Really? The doggone deer walked right up to you, practically in the backyard, stood broadside at a chip shot distance and YOU thought about FORM!
Ok, rant over, maybe, anyways you know the drill. The deer will be back looking for you, good luck MR. instinctive shooter.:thumbs_up


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MAC 11700 said:


> If you think about what you are doing when you are going to shoot. ..........your going to miss. .
> 
> You need a plan? Just like I told you yesterday. .....pick your spot....stay focused on it draw and shoot..don't hold..dont aim..see your gap in your pheriphrial vision and let it go.
> 
> ...



Mac, I have preached this stuff till I practically turned blue in the damn face and people still get mixed up about the shot sequence and target form. Isn't that exactly what this thread was supposed to be about? That shooting to kill things is different from standing straight up and shooting paper targets? That some of that stuff could be messing people up? Well, here's your proof. I can't possibly see how it could be simpler than point and shoot to kill, no shot sequence nor form needed. I like how John Schultz said it to the guy who missed the bear. Something like, just lay the bow over sideways, look where you want the arrow to hit and shoot, and you'll get your bear. 
But, this deer was put there for MGF. God knows how bad he wants it, how hard he's worked for it. It will be back and if he gets an arrow anywhere near the vitals, I wouldn't be surprised if it runs to his skinning rack to die.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I guess I deserved that.

Since talking to Mac (thanks Mac!) I've changed my mental game a bit. Once at full draw and ready to aim...aiming is all I do until the arrow is gone. I haven't been thinking about "expansion" or anything else. Judging by the accuracy, the way the shot feels/sounds and follow through, I still expand but it doesn't require any conscious thought or action. I've still been gap or "gapstinctive" shooting but with my primary focus always on the spot and everything else in the peripheral vision.

From now on, form work will be form work but when I'm shooting to hit something I'll use the form that I've already ingrained and just shoot the target. 

I also stopped and picked up a 3-d target which is something that I've been meaning to do for a long time anyway.

On another note, I got thinking about where that deer came from. I wasn't in the stand for a minute or so when I heard her coming. When I first heard her, she was between me and my yard proper. I had walked right through there only moments before.

I had to work today so I couldn't hunt but I'll be back at it in the morning.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> I guess I deserved that.
> 
> Since talking to Mac (thanks Mac!) I've changed my mental game a bit. Once at full draw and ready to aim...aiming is all I do until the arrow is gone. I haven't been thinking about "expansion" or anything else. Judging by the accuracy, the way the shot feels/sounds and follow through, I still expand but it doesn't require any conscious thought or action. I've still been gap or "gapstinctive" shooting but with my primary focus always on the spot and everything else in the peripheral vision.
> 
> ...



LOL, She was looking for the skinning rack before she went to get shot. Sorry if I was too harsh.:whip2: It just gets frustrating when guys lose their deer because of trying to do everything 'right'. And that's all good I suppose but, people were killing deer way before they ever came up with 'proper shooting'.
I don't know if you've ever seen the videos by John Schultz or not but there's a good message there for hunters. He too talks a lot about form but just watch him shoot. I'm not so sure he exactly practices what he preaches so it might be better to just watch with the sound turned off. 

Btw, I almost forgot, don't 'aim' too long, if you're not ready to kill the deer there's no need to draw the bow.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

MGF said:


> I guess I deserved that.
> 
> 
> I also stopped and picked up a 3-d target which is something that I've been meaning to do for a long time anyway.
> ...


MGF, 

Getting the 3D target is a real good idea. I shoot a lot of 3D. You can practice shooting a target all day long, beer cans, whatever.... but shooting that deer 3D target will put your mind in the proper frame of reference for when the real deal comes along. 

I took my first longbow deer this year. She walked right under me just 5 minutes after I got in the stand, at first light. At that point, you don't think about anything except TOTAL focus on the spot you are trying to hit. Last year was a LONG season after I missed one the first day of the season, and never got another shot and ALOT of time in the woods. I reworked everything since then. 

Who knows what happened, you'll get another shot. I would practice on that 3D target from an elevated stand, if that's how you are hunting. When the season is over, I'd put that 3D target up right where you are hunting and shoot it from all positions where you may get an actual shot. I have a couple stands up in my back yard, and that's what I do. That way when the real thing walks in, I've already shot it hundreds of times in practice. Good Luck!

(By the way, I know you are interested, I took this deer with my 42#@29" Delta)


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Mac, I have preached this stuff till I practically turned blue in the damn face and people still get mixed up about the shot sequence and target form. Isn't that exactly what this thread was supposed to be about? That shooting to kill things is different from standing straight up and shooting paper targets? That some of that stuff could be messing people up? Well, here's your proof. I can't possibly see how it could be simpler than point and shoot to kill, no shot sequence nor form needed. I like how John Schultz said it to the guy who missed the bear. Something like, just lay the bow over sideways, look where you want the arrow to hit and shoot, and you'll get your bear.
> But, this deer was put there for MGF. God knows how bad he wants it, how hard he's worked for it. It will be back and if he gets an arrow anywhere near the vitals, I wouldn't be surprised if it runs to his skinning rack to die.


Yup..I've seen this a lot. .More now since folks keep preaching target accuracy and form above everything. .Folks get so evolved with the shooting process..they forget to stay focused on the spot they want the arrow to go and wind up looking at the whole animal. .

Killing critters isn't hard..having them cooperate and give you the perfect shot is all together harder......lol...lol...lol..he got that to happen. .the rest is a piece of cake once he decides to focus on the shot..not the process. . 

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

To be fair (and logical), the fact that I missed isn't really evidence that any one method or ideology doesn't work. It's only evidence that I didn't do it well.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> Killing critters isn't hard..having them cooperate and give you the perfect shot is all together harder......lol...lol...lol..he got that to happen. .the rest is a piece of cake once he decides to focus on the shot..not the process. .
> 
> Mac


It depends. I've been tromping through the woods for a lot of years. Even though I really haven't done all that much deer hunting or killed very many, I've been watching deer, sneaking up on them for fun or sitting still and letting them come to me since I was a child and first started squirrel hunting with my dad (about 50 years ago).

Sometimes I'm stuck hunting where there just aren't many deer. For example, I've had deer here the last few days but sometimes they don't step foot on my place for days or weeks at a time.

Given a patch of woods that has some deer, I can usually find them and get close. Over the last few years (since I started deer hunting again) I just haven't had much success in killing them with a bow. The failure has always been the shooting. I don't get as many shooting opportunities as I'd like but I've had some real good opportunities. I just missed.

I would go so far as to say that if you just walk into the woods anyplace where there's much sign at all and sit still, eventually, some dumb deer will com walking right up on you. I say that because I've had it happen so many times. That doesn't mean that you can get a bow drawn without sending them into the next county. LOL

One of the best deer hunting strategies that I've heard was referred to as the three 'B's. *B*e in the woods. *B*e ready to shoot. *B*e able to hit what you shoot at.

There might be things I could do to get into better woods. It's hard to spend "enough" time in the woods (especially once it gets cold). Even so, I'd have venison in the freezer if I could hit what I shoot at. LOL

Now, that's why I've spent the last year+ shooting my little butt off. Somehow, I still didn't manage to identify and remedy the cause of the misses. We're not talking one miss. I'm up to 5 or 6 consecutive clean misses in a row. I don't think it's because somebody told me wrong or taught me wrong.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

The point is bro..your not alone in doing this...........ive done it abunch myself. .It's aggravating for sure. .

If you limit where you hunt, the chances of having a deer cooperate go down. .Ive got a good friend who has access to 2.5 acres of over grown scrub.It has to about 4 trails on it and hardly ever any deer holding anywhere on it.My friend insist on hunting that property and won't hunt elsewhere until the end of bow season. .In 15 years he has taken 1 fawn off the property. .10 miles further down the road. .is over 3200 acres of state land he can hunt..

Hunting your own is nice when you have it..but..for myself. .I'll take 1 or 2 good hunts where I know I can find plenty of deer than a whole season where I only see a few.Finding the time is always the hard part for me. .

BTW..I never tromp through the woods. .I sneak...lol...lol..lol and always get satellite maps and topo maps..I've had excellent results in locating good areas that have deer with them.

Missing is part of hunting. .so cheer up my friend. .you'll get another chance to shoot.

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I don't think it's because somebody told me wrong or taught me wrong.


Something's obviously going wrong...whether it's what you're doing or what you've been taught. 

The thing is...whatever you're doing may work for someone else...but it's currently not working for you.

Pressure shots such as in tournament shooting or bowhunting are different than the shots taken during most practice sessions.

In most cases the archer needs to not over think the shot sequence or aiming. It should for the most part just flow....but that doesn't mean everyone's thought process needs to be exactly the same.

There is something you are doing that is obviously messing you up at the moment of truth.

Some archers need to concentrate on some aspect of the shot sequence such as back tension or aiming no matter what circumstance is they're in. You just don't want to OVER think it...especially in hunting when shot opportunities can come and go so quickly.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> Missing is part of hunting. .so cheer up my friend. .you'll get another chance to shoot.
> 
> Mac


I'm ok. I know people who have real problems. This isn't a "real" problem.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Something's obviously going wrong...whether it's what you're doing or what you've been taught.
> 
> The thing is...whatever you're doing may work for someone else...but it's currently not working for you.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's really a shooting thing. It's more of a confidence thing or something...maybe like target panic.

I picked up a 3-d deer yesterday. No answers there. I decided to just lighten up and have some for a while and I shot that deer with high anchors, low anchors, a canted bow, a vertical bow and anything else I could think or...just playing around.

I missed the kill zone only once and I sure never missed the whole deer. Something happens to me when there's a live deer around.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> I don't think it's really a shooting thing. It's more of a confidence thing or something...maybe like target panic.
> 
> I picked up a 3-d deer yesterday. No answers there. I decided to just lighten up and have some for a while and I shot that deer with high anchors, low anchors, a canted bow, a vertical bow and anything else I could think or...just playing around.
> 
> I missed the kill zone only once and I sure never missed the whole deer. Something happens to me when there's a live deer around.



Well it ain't target panic. lol
Maybe the excitement level or pressure of having a live deer instead of a can or foam deer in front of you. That's far from new in the hunting world. It's the psychological part that I'm talking, a type of mental confusion that can be caused by reading things on here for example. You mentioned target panic, a word that some guys hate to even think about because they are afraid if they start thinking about it they might get infected. And the bad part is that it's possible. The brain is a powerful thing and can be influenced in lots of ways. That's why I dig my heels in when the paper punchers try to convince everyone on here that you just have to do things a certain way or you can't shoot a bow. I believe those things get into some peoples head and cause them to screw up by trying too hard to be perfect. 
I honestly think your issue comes from not having many opportunities to shoot a deer. That seems to have been a real problem for some time now. When the opportunity presents itself is damn hard to overcome the urge to close the deal. I know you will solve that part for next year by turning that little honey hole in your backyard into the best restaurant in the area. But, that's long term, for now they are there and all you can do is try to relax and tell yourself that it's not the end of the world if you don't get a deer. But ya will anyway.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I missed the kill zone only once and I sure never missed the whole deer. Something happens to me when there's a live deer around.


If that's the only case...than it's most likely Buck Fever...which is really no different than Target Panic.

Another thing to consider is deer do jump the string and if you're missing high EVERY time you might not be realizing how much the deer are moving when you shoot.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If that's the only case...than it's most likely Buck Fever...which is really no different than Target Panic.
> 
> Another thing to consider is deer do jump the string and if you're missing high EVERY time you might not be realizing how much the deer are moving when you shoot.
> 
> Ray :shade:


The deer didn't move. I just missed.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If that's the only case...than it's most likely Buck Fever...which is really no different than Target Panic.
> 
> Another thing to consider is deer do jump the string and if you're missing high EVERY time you might not be realizing how much the deer are moving when you shoot.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Now that is true..... I saw a video compilation (with compound bows I'm pretty sure all of them) where the deer in one case looked like it scraped his belly on the ground in his launch... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> The deer didn't move. I just missed.


That happens.... :grin:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> The deer didn't move. I just missed.


All 5 to 6 times? Every deer just stood there and didn't run after you shot?

At what point did the deer run away?

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> All 5 to 6 times? Every deer just stood there and didn't run after you shot?
> 
> At what point did the deer run away?
> 
> Ray :shade:


The last one (Tuesday) didn't run away at all. She circled around and gave me the exact same shot again...After that miss she just wandered off a different direction. They don't have to run to get away from me.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

MGF said:


> I'm ok. I know people who have real problems. This isn't a "real" problem.


Well I don't know. .if you have had this issue now for some time. .it may be.I know you wear glasses. .are they bifocals, pergresive trifocals..or just single vison? It could be your missing because of the different strengths of each if you have them. .and are looking through them on the lines or at the transition areas....when shooting from the a elevated position. 

Could it just be mental. .sure....I know overcoming the desire to peek is a biggie and causes a lot of mistakes. 

Heck..you might have buck fever too..and may need to talk to a physician to get some medication to calm down or something far worse for a hunter..a mental block that will take lots of time and money to find out what is causing it and even more to overcome it..on a shrinks couch...( lord I hope not. .)

Best start with what is easiest to correct..and work through it systematically. .

Mac


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MAC 11700 said:


> Well I don't know. .if you have had this issue now for some time. .it may be.I know you wear glasses. .are they bifocals, pergresive trifocals..or just single vison? It could be your missing because of the different strengths of each if you have them. .and are looking through them on the lines or at the transition areas....when shooting from the a elevated position.
> 
> Could it just be mental. .sure....I know overcoming the desire to peek is a biggie and causes a lot of mistakes.
> 
> ...


My glasses are regular bifocals but I shoot in them all the time. 

I guess it's just a buck fever kind of thing. Doctors and drugs are out. Maybe I should bring a flask out with me and make it more of a party? LOL

Yesterday morning was cold so I was wearing my heaviest clothes and by the time I was ready to leave the stand I was fairly cold. The worst time to shoot.

There weren't any deer around so I took a few shots. They weren't as tight as I normally shoot when I'm not half frozen but they would have all killed a deer.

Not that three arrows proves anything but, just for fun, this was my last three of the day on the "range" from 15 yards. Hitting a deer's lungs at that distance should be no problem at all. I am "good enough"...as long as there are no deer about. LOL










Mike,
deadly on beer cans


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Something else comes to mind here. We've had some long and lively discussions about government mandated proficiency tests for bow hunters.

Fortunately I missed these deer completely but I guess a bad hit could happen. I don't think I'd have any trouble passing any reasonable proficiency test. 

I don't know if other folks have this problem too or if I invented something new but, obviously, performance on the range isn't necessarily indicative of performance in the field.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Mac, something I should have added...I wouldn't have taken the shot at all if I didn't think I was reasonably calm/in control. something just falls apart and that very last moment before the arrow leaves.

Maybe this coming year I'll spend time in the stand hanging out with deer all year. It's not something I could do on public land but there isn't anything stopping me from sitting in my stand with a bow during the off season. I could go through all the motions except actually letting the arrow go. Maybe have a blunt on the arrow so I couldn't hurt anything even by accident.

The other thing, if I have the time and money, is just not waiting all year for the In. deer season to roll around again...go do some pig hunting or something someplace. I need a couple of kills under my belt.

Heck I think the Arkansas deer season runs into Feb. I have family down there with land that's dotted with permanent stands and feeders. They'd probably let me come down and shoot at deer.


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