# Instinctive Aiming Illustrated



## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

:set1_applaud::thumb:


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## Celtic Dragon (Jan 4, 2009)

What are the chances of a region 2 version?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Below is a link to a clip from Rick Welch's new DVD - _The Accuracy Factory_. In the clip Welch shows the "sight picture" of an instinctive shooter verses the "sight picture" of someone who consciously aims using the arrow or the bow or bow arm. It is an excellent clip.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you have ever had one of these know-it-all gap shooters tell you that "everyone uses the arrow to aim" - this clip clearly illustrates that such a statement is bovine excrement -


Rick is awesome, no doubt about that, but without even rising to the issue of whether "instinctive" shooters use sight picture as part of their aiming system the video does not do what you claim it does. It does not prove that people do no subconsciously use exteroceptive sight picture in conjunction with their proprioceptive sense as part of "instinctive" aiming. In fact, Rick even says that if you are shooting "instinctive" that "you are not *consciously* using [the arrow] as a gauge."

While it is true that you have to decide whether to focus on the target or your sight (be it an actual sight or a reference like the point of your arrow) it is just flat out wrong wrong to claim you have to focus on the arrow to use Point Offset Aiming/Point of Aim/Gap Shooting--you don't. Whether you focus on the target or the arrow/target sight reticule, is a choice.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Celtic Dragon said:


> What are the chances of a region 2 version?


Are you sure the video isn't all region? Even if it is Region 1 coded, if you buy it you should be able to pay it in the free, Open Source VLC video player software for mac/PC/Linux.


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## Redneck5544 (Jul 17, 2008)

good clip:thumbs_up


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Warbow - I disagree - "instinctive" is by definition doing something at a subconscious level. 

A "gap shooter" or a "point of aim shooter" - has to consciously think about the distance and at a conscious level has to "think" about where to point his arrow in relation to the target - so he has to at some point focus on the arrow tip.

An instinctive shooter does not think about distance - does not in any conscious manner hold the arrow at a certain point in relation to the distance of the target - it is all done at a subconscious level - and is therefore "instinctive".

Actually - do a search of Park Sung Hyun on youtube - one of the greatest archers alive - watch her shoot - she uses sights - primarily because she is shooting 70 meters - but watch her shoot and how fast she releases the arrow and then compare that to your buddies at the range that shoot compounds.

I believe it could be argued that most Olympic archers actually shoot insintinctively - in other words - they pay no conscious attention to the sight at all - it is there to be sure - and some mechanism in their subconscious uses it as a reference - but all they do is focus on their spot and it happens - and it happens fast - far too fast for someone to be consciously trying to line up a sight pin.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks. A very good explanation on sight picture. Doing anything in repetition builds into our subconscious what once required more conscious action. The two, sub and consciousness, trade back and forth in about everything we do. A point of aim shooter uses both as well as an "instinctive" shooter.

What I think gets mixed up is the idea that the subconscious part of anything pertains to something instinctive, or builds an "instinct" into the shooter. 

If you were not born with it, it ain't instinctive. One cannot learn instincts. If the subconscious action was developed over time and repetition, it is merely efficient use of brain resources. Whether you shoot with a fuzzy target and clear arrow point or fuzzy arrow point and clear target, what is the difference, subconsciously?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Warbow - I disagree - "instinctive" is by definition doing something at a subconscious level.


The definition of "instinctive" has a number of meanings, ranging from the common, lay-person's usage, meaning a behavior performed without conscious effort, and the behavioral sciences definition, meaning a behavior that is innate at birth and does not have to be learned. So called "instinctive" archery has to be learned through constant practice and only meets the lay definition, not the behavioral sciences definition of "instinctive." So, making a claim that tries to leverage the equivocal nature of the term "instinctive" is a circular argument.



sharpbroadhead said:


> A "gap shooter" or a "point of aim shooter" - has to consciously think about the distance and at a conscious level has to "think" about where to point his arrow in relation to the target - so he has to at some point focus on the arrow tip.


That is partially true. Some gap shooters, like Howard Hill and other experienced gappers, use a combination of conscious/subconscious aiming, which Hill called Split Vision and others have called "Gapstinctive." One can focus on the target while doing so, using the blur of the arrow as a nearly subconcious aiming device.

The more shooters practice gapping/POA the more it becomes subconscious. Gap shooting and and "instinctive" are not dichotomies but are, instead, two ends of a continuum.



sharpbroadhead said:


> An instinctive shooter does not think about distance - does not in any conscious manner hold the arrow at a certain point in relation to the distance of the target - it is all done at a subconscious level - and is therefore "instinctive".


Yes, if, and only if, by "instinctive" you mean the lay definition of "instinctive," or aiming subconsciously mediated through conditioned proprioception.




sharpbroadhead said:


> I believe it could be argued that most Olympic archers actually shoot insintinctively - in other words - they pay no conscious attention to the sight at all - it is there to be sure - and some mechanism in their subconscious uses it as a reference - but all they do is focus on their spot and it happens - and it happens fast - far too fast for someone to be consciously trying to line up a sight pin.


You aren't really arguing for what most people call "instinctive" archery at all, the type where you claim: "If you have ever had one of these know-it-all gap shooters tell you that "everyone uses the arrow to aim" - this clip clearly illustrates that such a statement is bovine excrement"

I can't believe that you think for a second that Park Sung Hyun isn't using her sight as a reference. What you are arguing is simply about conditioned reflex through hours of practice. 

I think you need to define what you think of as "instinctive" archery. At the extreme end, people claim it is an innate skill you are born with, one where you actually don't aim (yes, people claim that literally). On the evidence based end, people claim it is a learned behavior that uses conscious aiming (you pick a target consciously) and is executed through the use of exteroceptive and proprioceptive senses subconsciously mediated through conditioned reflexes.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

This video finally sheds more light into what I thought Rick was doing.

With his high anchor and shooting 3 under...the point of his arrow has to be very close to being on target...especailly at typical hunting distances...which makes it soooo much easier to utilize the arrow consciously or subconsciously as an aiming reference.

What it appears to me what Rick is doing is what I would call Instinctive Point of Aim....where he sets up his bow to shoot where he points while placing the arrow tip close to the target so his subconscious can pick it up more easily within his periphial vision.

I think it's a great way to learn to aim and makes learning to aim Instinctively even easier!

There are different aspects to how an archer can aim Instinctively. The one thing that an archer must do to aim Instinctively is to NOT consciously look at anything within their sight picture other than the target for an aiming reference.

As long as an archer is doing that...they are aiming Instinctively...no matter how they set their bow up.

I shoot Gap very similar because my arrow is blurred within my periphial vision and I never focus on it...but I am consciously aware of where it is. I call it...Instinctive Gap....because I feel my gap instead of knowing exactly how far under or over my arrow tip needs to me.

The archers that really impress me...are the archers that rely more on proprioception and shoot fast like a baseball pitcher throwing a ball smoothly and accurately..and consistantly hit their targets.

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> This video finally sheds more light into what I thought Rick was doing.
> 
> With his high anchor and shooting 3 under...the point of his arrow has to be very close to being on target...especailly at typical hunting distances...which makes it soooo much easier to utilize the arrow consciously or subconsciously as an aiming reference.


I think this shows that Rick shoots "instinctively" as you or I might describe it, using all his senses, including a subconscious sight picture, otherwise there is literally no point to using a high, 3 under anchor.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Viper's book covers the same thing, only with more freedom of personal decision.

As several have said, it's just a matter of where your focus is. Mine is usually on the target, with the blurred arrow aligned with the target- with more attetntion payed to where it is the farther away I shoot. 

But I loved the video!


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## Creepingdeath2 (Mar 17, 2009)

I think some eye conditions allow for better instinctive aiming.

I'm super right eye dominant, but can "turn on/off" my left, having grown up with Brown's Syndrome.

(condition of muscle nerve, where some motion doesn't happen- my left eye won't turn left).

The tracking of my eyes in all other movement is above the norm in precision, and my visual acuity in both eyes up until recent was 20/15.

I don't look at the arrow, don't think I can. 

And with my varied yardage practice I don't need to :smile:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I believe it could be argued that most Olympic archers actually shoot insintinctively - in other words - they pay no conscious attention to the sight at all - it is there to be sure - and some mechanism in their subconscious uses it as a reference - but all they do is focus on their spot and it happens - and it happens fast - far too fast for someone to be consciously trying to line up a sight pin.


I was about to set up to argue with you about this and then you come and end wit this..... 

I don't know what you'd call how I aim, I draw and I sometimes look at the target and other times at the arrow, but as I come to anchor I follow the arrow to the target and release. I know that my shooting has "set" into my mind what is going to happen with that sight picture.... and trust me, it is IMPOSSIBLE to not have a sight picture regardles how I or you shoot... just put a blindfold on to prove it. Here is what I mean.... Aim and shoot. Aim, close you eyes.... burn a hole in your target, have someone put the blinders on and then shoot. 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Kegan - 

Thanks for remembering! 

Guys -

Here's the simplified breakdown, unfortunately this stuff will be debated ad infinitum. 










Viper1 out.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I think this shows that Rick shoots "instinctively" as you or I might describe it, using all his senses, including a subconscious sight picture, otherwise there is literally no point to using a high, 3 under anchor.


I pretty much agree....based on his claim of not consciously using the arrow to aim.

If I was to break down his technique into a more sport specific sense I would say his aiming technique is what I would consider to be primarily Instinctive but I don't believe it's pure Instinctive because how close the arrow tip is to the bullseye within his sight picture.

I believe an archer who aims totally Instinctive is relying more on proprioception rather than the sight picture. Like you said earlier...just because an object is blurred within your sight picture doesn't mean you can't use it consciously to aide in aiming.

I believe, one of the primary reasons to using a high anchor and 3 Under is to get a closer Point On distance or get the arrow point closer to being point on to a particular distance.

It only makes sense for an archer, who primarily shoots around 25yrds. to try and get a Point On around 25yrds., if they are trying to make the aiming process easier.

The only reason why I personally don't is because I like to shoot at targets around 90yrds. or more and my technique allows me to keep my arrow tip below the target up to 90yrds. or so. without Face or String Walking.

I have no prejudice against any of the aiming techniques. I love them all and I believe all have a place and a purpose with advantages and disadvantages.

I believe an archer should aim anyway they feel they would enjoy....and it just makes the choosing process easier when the advantages, disadvantages and definitions are laid out so an archer can make an educated start...instead of just aiming a particular way because someone told them that it was the only way to aim a traditional bow.

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I have no prejudice against any of the aiming techniques. I love them all and I believe all have a place and a purpose with advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> I believe an archer should aim anyway they feel they would enjoy....and it just makes the choosing process easier when the advantages, disadvantages and definitions are laid out so an archer can make an educated start...instead of just aiming a particular way because someone told them that it was the only way to aim a traditional bow.
> 
> Ray


Absolutely! People should shoot how they like 

I generally only get involved in the discussion when people make claims of fact. Preference, on the other hand is a personal choice.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

So he doesn't "consciously" use the arrow. Where's the epiphany? He gets (or chooses) to call this method "Instinctive"?

I don't care what he calls it, he's using the arrow....same as most.

Yawn.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JV NC said:


> So he doesn't "consciously" use the arrow. Where's the epiphany? He gets (or chooses) to call this method "Instinctive"?
> 
> I don't care what he calls it, he's using the arrow....same as most.
> 
> Yawn.


I'm not sure why you're yawning???

Yes...most people do use the arrow to aim...one way or another...but with each aiming technique there are slight differences and they aren't the same.

Most...if not all aiming techniques fall into one or a blend of these terms.

Point of Aim, Gap, Split Vision, Instinctive, Face Walking, String Walking and Sights.

Each are uniquely different and are not the same which is why each one has a name and a description.

An archer's aiming technique will often determine how accurate they can be just as an archer's form will also determine how accurate they can be.

An archer with poor form but a good aiming technique will miss. An archer with exceptional form but a poor aiming technique will miss. BOTH are important to develop consistant accuracy.

Ray


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What it appears to me what Rick is doing is what I would call Instinctive Point of Aim....where he sets up his bow to shoot where he points while placing the arrow tip close to the target so his subconscious can pick it up more easily within his periphial vision.
> 
> I shoot Gap very similar because my arrow is blurred within my periphial vision and I never focus on it...but I am consciously aware of where it is. I call it...Instinctive Gap....because I feel my gap instead of knowing exactly how far under or over my arrow tip needs to me.
> 
> Ray


This how I shoot it works pretty well for me. I like to describe it as focusing on the point I want to hit while also being aware of the arrows relationaship to the target (it's not visual but more spacial awareness) Yes I like to know the distance but it's more of a added confidence thing.

When I shot past 50y I switch to point of aim as it's more consistent for me and find it's harder to pick and focus on a small point at long range (i'm getting older and dont have eagle eyes anymore).

One aiming method isn't better than another it's just a matter of whats best suited to you. Ricky calls it Instinctive I call it Split-vision shooting but it doesn't really matter what you call it as long as your arrow ends up where you aimed


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## Celtic Dragon (Jan 4, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Are you sure the video isn't all region? Even if it is Region 1 coded, if you buy it you should be able to pay it in the free, Open Source VLC video player software for mac/PC/Linux.



Both my macs are now locked to region 2, in the firmware it gives you 5 plays of any disk(s), then lock itself to that region and is a ***** to break. My dvd player is also region 2.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> One aiming method isn't better than another it's just a matter of whats best suited to you.


I agree....BUT there are inherent advantages and disadvantages to each aiming technique, which explains why some techniques are more common for specific situations and circumstances. I would no more suggest Point of Aim for wing shooting as I would suggest Instinctive aiming for tournament competition where targets are set at long distance.



steve morley said:


> Ricky calls it Instinctive I call it Split-vision shooting but it doesn't really matter what you call it as long as your arrow ends up where you aimed


The only reason it should really matter is for educational and communicative purposes to help other archers understand the terms and help them make more informed decisions.

It shouldn't be used to debate how someone is a better shot because they use a certain aiming technique or not.

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JV NC said:


> The yawn was......because he seems to be SO DESPERATELY seeking to make it harder than it is (or seem to be harder).


He's only calling it what he believes he is doing. I think he is actually trying to make it easier for everyone that is interested in his technique. I just think their is some mystique or misguided information about what Instinctive aiming really is that it causes confusion.



JV NC said:


> Calling what he's doing "instinctive" serves no purpose.....except to self-perpetuate a mystique where none exists.


It exists...just as Point of Aim and Gap aiming exists as a similar, yet unique way to aim a bow.



JV NC said:


> He's a good shot. Rick should leave it at that and stop trying to blow smoke up our asses.


It appears to be smoke...if you're so dead set on not wanting to acknowledge the differences and/or similarities between Instinctive aiming and the other barebow aiming techniques.

Ray


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

What purpose does it serve to distinguish between them.....if you're not trying to separae yourself from the masses?

"Instinctive", to me, means NOT relying on anything except target identification to aid you. Here's a challenge. Go into your basement at night and turn off all your lights. Place a target at 10yds and point a laser pointer at the center.

Now shoot that red dot. Report back your findings.


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## junker (Jul 11, 2008)

JV NC said:


> So he doesn't "consciously" use the arrow. Where's the epiphany? He gets (or chooses) to call this method "Instinctive"?
> 
> I don't care what he calls it, he's using the arrow....same as most.
> 
> Yawn.



so its not instinctive aiming its arrow aiming? next you're gonna say "instinctive aiming is not instinctive bc you're aiming"

i shoot what i consider to be instinctive in that i don't pay attention to yardages during the shot. i shoot 3 under with high anchor. i try to think about how much the arrow is going to drop over the particular distance.
I guess you can call that "arrow drop aiming"


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Different strokes. I (and I've inquired of the better shooters in my area) ALWAYS judge yardage when I shoot 3D or otherwise. When I practice, I like to know (pretty much) the exact yardage I'm shooting from. I'll call what I do "memorization" (for lack of a known term). I like to think I have a sight picture memorized for a certain yardage.....and I try to recall that when I'm on a course. If you've never shot from 40yds....how do you know "Instictively" what that sight picture looks like???????

But honestly....I think everyone does this to a certain degree (if not always). Again....NO epiphanies.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I wasn't going to even respond and probably should not - But I have to address some of the comments made by JV.

1. It does not matter what YOU - JV _think_ Instinctive means - what matters is what it _actually_ means.

Here is the definition of "instinctive" from the American Heritage Dictionary

in·stinc·tive (ĭn-stĭngk'tĭv) 
adj. 
1.Of, relating to, or prompted by instinct.

2. Arising from impulse; spontaneous and unthinking: an instinctive mistrust of bureaucrats.

Note the 2nd definition - an unthinking action

This is how the term "instinctive" is applied to traditional archery aiming. It is an "unthinking" method of aiming - the archer who aims insinctively does not "think" about the relation of his arrow to the target, does not "think" about the distance to the target, etc...

Nobody claims that at a subconsciouly level these things are not happening - obviously somehow the brain is judging distance and pointing the bow in the right direction - but it is done at a level where we are not consciously thinking about it.

when a person throws a basketball into the hoop - do they judge the yardage, do they use an arrow, bow or "sight" to line it up - no - it is done at a subconscious level. When two kids go out into a yard and throw a ball to each other - do they "think" about lining anything up - do they "think" about how many feet or yards away the other person is?

And in reality - throwing a ball is more difficult than shooting a bow - because when you throw a ball you have more factors involved. When we shoot our bows (assuming we have good form) we only have to account for the variables of windage and elevation (up/down and right/left) - when we throw a ball we also have to account for the variable of velocity - if we have a consistent draw the velocity is always the same - not so when we throw a ball - we control the velocity by how hard or softly we throw the ball!

This is the primary reason that we can shoot our bows much more accurately than we can throw a ball.

anyhow - moving one.

2. JV you made a claim that Welch is trying to make what he does seem difficulty - you obviously have never met Rick Welch or watched his DVD's - because he comes right out and says that shooting a bow is a "simple dang thing" and that anyone who tries to make it complicated is trying to sell you a gadget!

It is much easier to shoot a bow instinctively at unknown distances than it is to try and judge yardage and "gap shoot" or some other conscious method of aiming. btw - Point of Aim is pointing the arrow tip at something on the ground in front of the target based on the estimated yardage.

I firmly believe that for hunting and 3D at unknown distances - instinctive is the most simple way to shoot a bow and ANYONE can do it - the most difficult part of shooting instinctively is surrendering the control of the shot to the subconscious.

Isn't it funny - that it always seems that the proud and dominant types of personalities are usually the ones who have the most difficult time understanding what instinctive archery is? 

If you think about it it makes perfect sense - these types are very proud people - and probably very successful people - they are not used to surrendering anything and they like to be in control of everything - it would figure that these personality types would have a VERY difficult time surrendering the shot to the subconscious.'

THEY want to control the shot at a conscious level so that THEY can pat themselves on the back and say to themselves (wow - i judged that yardage perfectly and I held my arrow in just the right spot, etc...)

Notice how most instinctive shooters are of a totally different personality type

Anyhow - i have ranted enough- bottom line is this - shoot how you want and the way that fits your personality - but don't go attacking other people and other methods or trying to implicitly accuse others of lying about how they shoot or rather aim the bow.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JV NC said:


> What purpose does it serve to distinguish between them.....if you're not trying to separae yourself from the masses?


What in the world does defining aiming techniques for academic and communicative purposes have anything to do with trying to seperate a person from the masses?

This shouldn't be personal. If anyone else is taking this personally as a reflection of their character or ability...than I would have to say they have some personal issues to work out.

Have you been personally ridiculed for your chosen aiming technique? Were you ever called a cheater for using your arrow as an aiming reference? If so...that would explain your attitude towards this topic.



JV NC said:


> Here's a challenge. Go into your basement at night and turn off all your lights. Place a target at 10yds and point a laser pointer at the center.
> 
> Now shoot that red dot. Report back your findings.


I use to use that technique quite a bit and it's a practice technique I highly recommend for anyone wanting to improve their proprioceptive ability, which can aide Instinctive shooters tremendously.

It can be surprising to some people how good an archer can get at it when they practice.

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> btw - Point of Aim is pointing the arrow tip at something on the ground in front of the target based on the estimated yardage.


I pretty much agree with everything you said in your last post...except for this one statement.

Point of Aim is more than just that. It's consciously placing your arrow tip on any specific spot to hit your target. That spot can be on the ground, above the target, be part of the target and when an archer is at his Point On distance...he places the tip on the bullseye or near it. An archer using Point of Aim focuses on that spot and arrow tip and not the target until they reach their Point On distance. At that point the target becomes part of what an archer concentrates on and the clarity of the target and arrow tip can be blurred to varing degrees.

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Nobody claims that at a subconsciouly level these things are not happening - obviously somehow the brain is judging distance and pointing the bow in the right direction - but it is done at a level where we are not consciously thinking about it.


SB, I think we basically agree on what "instinctive" archery is. However, not everybody makes the same defensible position. Some people do, indeed, claim that instinctive archers absolutely do not look at the sight picture either consciously or unconsciously--it's one of the prime debating points in the standard "Instinctive Aiming" threads on Leatherwall... You need to be careful with the absolute statements. Don't assume people won't make claims just because you think they are unreasonable.


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## junker (Jul 11, 2008)

i know i shoot instinctively bc i do it on an unconscious level


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

A basketball player doesn't think about distance to the goal, because he's practiced from the distance he's shooting from enough times to comprehend what that sight picture looks like. 

I'm of the opinion we (traditional archers) do the same thing. Whether or not we consciously say to ourselves (this is a 20yd shot, I've shot 1,000+ times or not....we do it). 

So is that instictive? Or is it repetition, based on memorization?

Put a target in an open field at 40yds (after shooting targets in the woods at 20) and tell me what your mind says. Then retrieve your instinctive shots from under the target.

Tell me....if you never shot from 50yds....how would your mind know what that sight picture looked llike....and allow you to hit your mark?

Why practice, at all (other than for form)? Using the "instintictive" method, one should seemingly practice blank bale to perfect form, then rely on his insticts to create the proper sight picture from any yardage.

Good luck with that.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

JV - you are missing the point - instinctive does not always mean that the process is unlearned.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "honing your instincts"?

We all are born (baring handicaps) with the innate or instinctual ability to throw things and get them reasonably close to where we want them to go - how many times have you thrown a paper into a waste paper basket and got it right in there - now you have never practiced that shot - and each piece of paper is different and many times the distance is as well - yet we do it.

The point of the basketball player and baseball player is that they have no reference to aim with - NOTHING no arrow - no bow - no sight - yet you and many others claim that instinctive shooters HAVE to be using the arrow - really - why?

Animals are born with their instincts - a bird has the instinct to fly - but the more it does it the better it gets at it - does that mean that at some point they are no longer flying based on instinct? Hardly.

Anyhow - the point is instinct as used in instinctive archery does not mean that the process is unlearned anyhow - it means that it is done without conscious thought.

When you first start driving a car - you look at the hood and consciously line it up with the shoulder of the road to make sure you stay in the center - you consciously think about how hard you are pushing the gas pedal or the brake - etc...

Eventually - all of this is done at a subconscious level and it becomes instinctual - the care becomes an extension of self - and you hit the brake in the same manner that you reach for a beer - without any thought at all - you want the beer you reach for it - you are driving and want to stop or slow down - you hit the brake - INSTINCT.

An instinctive shooter allows the bow to become an extention of himself.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JV NC said:


> So is that instictive? Or is it repetition, based on memorization?


As others and I have mentioned many times...in order for any archer to become consistantly accurate involves repetition and some form of memorization.

The difference is...there are DIFFERENT techniques to achieve the same goal of hitting a bullseye with an arrow shot from a bow without a sight.

Memory can be stored within BOTH the conscious and subconscious mind.

The key is understanding and acknowledging what the differences and similarities are.

You can't just focus on the similarities and than claim their really the same. You're in denial if that's how you approach it.

I have yet to see an archer shoot unconsciously...as in passed out or sleeping 

What most every archer that has mastered their bow to some extent or another does is utilize BOTH the conscious and subconscious mind to varing degrees.

An archer aiming Instinctively relies more on the subconscious mind than an archer who is consciously adjusting gaps or arrow placement within their sight picture just as aiming Instinctively relies more on proprioception than an archer aiming consciously.



JV NC said:


> Put a target in an open field at 40yds (after shooting targets in the woods at 20) and tell me what your mind says. Then retrieve your instinctive shots from under the target.


The thought process that an Instinctive shooter will go through is a conscious realization that the 40yrds. target is further and requires a higher trajectory of the arrow to hit it...and than the subconscious can take over utilizing proprioception and the sight picture to aim the bow and arrow higher than it would at a 20yrds. target. That doesn't mean the archer will hit the target. It's only through engraining the feel and the sight picture through repetition will the archer become more consistantly accurate.

The fact is...an Instinctive archer does not go about the aiming process exactly the same as an archer aiming Gap or Point of Aim....and they don't all becoming the same aiming technique when mastered.

Ray


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

JV NC said:


> So he doesn't "consciously" use the arrow. Where's the epiphany? He gets (or chooses) to call this method "Instinctive"?
> 
> I don't care what he calls it, he's using the arrow....same as most.
> 
> Yawn.


:dontknow:



JV NC said:


> What purpose does it serve to distinguish between them.....if you're not trying to separae yourself from the masses?
> 
> "Instinctive", to me, means NOT relying on anything except target identification to aid you. Here's a challenge. Go into your basement at night and turn off all your lights. Place a target at 10yds and point a laser pointer at the center.
> 
> Now shoot that red dot. Report back your findings.


:thumbs_do




JV NC said:


> Different strokes. I (and I've inquired of the better shooters in my area) ALWAYS judge yardage when I shoot 3D or otherwise. When I practice, I like to know (pretty much) the exact yardage I'm shooting from. I'll call what I do "memorization" (for lack of a known term). I like to think I have a sight picture memorized for a certain yardage.....and I try to recall that when I'm on a course. If you've never shot from 40yds....how do you know "Instictively" what that sight picture looks like???????
> 
> But honestly....I think everyone does this to a certain degree (if not always). Again....NO epiphanies.


Yeah, I guess you got a point. 



JV NC said:


> A basketball player doesn't think about distance to the goal, because he's practiced from the distance he's shooting from enough times to comprehend what that sight picture looks like.
> 
> I'm of the opinion we (traditional archers) do the same thing. Whether or not we consciously say to ourselves (this is a 20yd shot, I've shot 1,000+ times or not....we do it).
> 
> ...


This was a nice thread. I actually liked how he explained the differance. Prolly cause I'm an ignorant noob but whatever. Then you showed up, and peed in everyone elses cheerios. Thanks bro!

Of, almost forgot,
:yawn:

Just my opinion.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I don't use POA or Gap.....and I also don't consider myself an instinctive shooter.



> yet you and many others claim that instinctive shooters HAVE to be using the arrow - really - why?


Again....do the drill I talked about.  In Masters of the Bare Bow II, Quidort claimed he was an instinctive shooter. Rod Jenkins challenged him to the shooting in the dark test (where he couldn't peripherally see the arrow). MASSIVE FAILURE.

As a former PGA Professional, I've seen just about every swing you could ever hope or hope not to. Why can't these guys learn to attain their targets and instinctively pick the right club? Why is knowing their ydg. important?

I have nothing against Rick Welch, whatsoever. I think he teaches a form of release that promotes inaccuracy from most archers......in that he doesn't teach back tension. Jim Furyk's a helluva golfer....but I'd never teach my kid to swing like that. I bet Jim wouldn't either. I have never seen a student of Rick's use back tension. Go to the thread here where the guy's shooting at a quarter if you need an example. There are plenty of Youtube threads (his teaching schools shooters' videos) with some serious plucking going on.

But I digress. I care less about this than I've shown. I'll defer back to my yawn......

Ted...if you think discussing things on the internet is pissing in cheerios....you need to get thicker skin. I mean NO malice to anyone. None. 

BTW....for this to be instictive and it's supposed to make it easier....you sure seem to use some big words.....lol (insert smilie face, here)


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