# The great NanoForce vane test.



## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

In search of the best fletchings for the arrows of my competitive recurve shooters, shooting 20 Yards, NFAA 300 Round

The three shooters are all using recurves w/ evevated rests:
24#@28", actual DL is 29"
26#@28", actual DL is 25"
28#@28", actual Dl is 27"


The plan is to fletch up 1/2 Dozen each of the exact same arrows with various vanes supplied and applied as directed by the Co. Then I hand them to my shooters and let them shoot and compare the results where it counts, 20 yards down range.

Every week each shooter will get a different set of 6 arrows and on a clean target take the 2 practice rounds to sight in, and then shoot a full NFAA 300 round.

They will NOT know their scores, they will only walk down to the target durring the first two sighting-in rounds.

I will be comparing final scores as well as groupings and over-all shot placement. 

I will also solicit the feedback from the shooters as to which set-up they prefered. 
(Which may or may not be the set that scored best, that should be intersting.)




I have contacted, either by Telephone or E-Mail, several Vane manufacturers and spoke with their respective "person in the know" and with credit card in hand, asked them to send me enough vanes to fletch 6 arrows of whatever vane they recommend. Some charged me for the "samples", some did not. I don’t care either way, I'm not looking for freebies I'm looking for the best vane for our needs, regardless of cost.

The test subjects:

I will be using a *Bitzenburger Dial-O-Fletch jig *w/ the _*Zen Archery Nock Reciever Upgrade*_
I have Right Helical & Left Helical, and Straight clamps to be used as suggested.

And for Adhesives (to be used as directed) : 

Bohning FletchTite Platinum
Bohning FletchTite Instant Gel
Flex Fletch Flex Bond
AAE Fast Set Gel
Gorilla Impact Tough Formula Super Glue


*ARROWS:*

2 Dozen Victory NanoForce V1 600 spine, full length, 80 Grain Nib Point, pin bushing, & pin nock.
1 Dozen Victory NanoForce V3 600 spine, full length, 80 Grain Nib Point, Bohning "F" nocks.


Our current set-ups:

Bi-Delta Sharks Tooth 2.5" (LEFT HELICAL)
True Flight	Left Wing 3" Parabolic (LEFT HELICAL)


What is on the way:

Vanetec	FITA 1.75"
Flex Fletch	FFP 1.87"
Flex Fletch FFP 1.75"
QuickSpin	60-751 1.5"
QuickSpin	60-801 2.25"

Initial notes:

Everybody I have been successful in contacting with was either very knowledgeable and quite helpful, or transferred me to someone better suited to answer my inquiries.

Emails to Spin-Wing bounced back with "mailbox full" error, and nobody has returned my voice-mail in over 72 hours.

-
Let the games begin!
-


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*Vanetec suggested setup*

The Rep. form Vanetec suggested:



> Right Hellical with a Bitzenburger jig.
> 
> A medium viscosity liquid CA or instant adhesive. _Not gel._
> These adhesives are stronger than FT platinum for this material.
> ...


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## Rocky44 (Sep 18, 2007)

Please test also the AAE/CAVALIER Plastifletch Max Shield cut 2"


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Rocky44 said:


> Please test also the AAE/CAVALIER Plastifletch Max Shield cut 2"


Ohh, forgot about AAE. 
I'll shoot them an E-mail and see if the respond.*Though, I would like to use what THEY reccomend for the test.*

If you, or they, or anybody, else wants to send me enough vanes to fletch up 6 arrows, I'd be happy to!

*However, this test will absolutely end on 01_DEC_2009 as I need to get my shooters settled down and practicing for State and Nationals.*


If we can get to them through the test by then, I will.


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## vaneinfo (May 9, 2005)

*Other Manufacturer suggestions?*

I was just curious on the setup suggestions made by the reps from Flex Fletch and Quick Spin.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vaneinfo said:


> I was just curious on the setup suggestions made by the reps from Flex Fletch and Quick Spin.


QuickSpin said "Dead Straight to 1°. 2° offset at the absolute maximum!"

FlexFletch has not made a specific recommendation, as of this moment.


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## ddd-shooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe Fusions 2" or 3"?
Blazers?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

All fine vanes I'm sure, but those have not been recommended for *this application*

I've tried blazers, mini blazers, and micro blazers months ago when we first got the V3's... just didn't fly right for us.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vaneinfo said:


> I was just curious on the setup suggestions made by the reps from Flex Fletch and Quick Spin.


My recent correspondeces with FlexFletch have been a great. Also I was pleasantly surprised that a lot their opinions seemed to track closely with mine concerning many of the "old wives tales" that I thought were malarky are indeed just that. But this is not the thread for that discussion.


Thier specific reccomendations for using _thier vanes_ (the FFP187 and FFP175), in _this application _were:




> My preference is always helical and approximately 2 degrees.
> 
> In this case I would suggest a bit higher degree of helical, 3, 4 or even 5.
> 
> ...


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*WeHaveArrows (dot com)*

Package arrived today from Mike (VeroShooter) at www.wehavearrows.com

2 dozen NanoForce V1 600 spine arrows
2 dozen 80 Gr. glue in points
2 dozen pin bushings & nocks



I'm going to get some Ajax or BonAmi cleanser tomorrow, and get the shafts good and clean and ready to be fletched.



Hopefully, we'll see some of our test vanes arriving soon.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Victory uses a Spine Align Process (SAP) but it only applies to their target arrows. 

VX-22, VX-22HV, X-Ringer, X-RingerHV, Nano-Force, X-Killer shafts are SAP “spine align process” this procedure finds the stiff side of the spine and the label is applied to that side.
* Fletch all of these series of arrows the same and you will achieve the best arrow flight. 3:00 position.*


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*TrueFlight 4" Round Back*

Per True Flight's reccomendation:
"4 Inch Round Back are ideal for high performance carbon shafts."


Got to work Friday Eve fletching. up a half dozen V1's w/ TrueFlight 4" Round Back.

Left Wing 4" Round Back feathers, fletched w/ as much helical as to give good vane base to shaft contact.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*1.5" Quick Spin vanes*

I must say that the little "kicker" on the rear-top of the the vane gave me fits getting my Bitzenburger clamp to hold the vanes in decent position for a good bond.
I "wasted" a 7 vanes in the process, of getting the half dozen arrows fletched. I fear that several may not have achieved a optimum contact and thus adhesion to the shaft.

I'm thinking that perhaps padding up the clamps very edge to prevent the kicker from getting in the way will help?


Per recommendations the are fletched as close to dead straight as I can set my jig.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

SandSquid said:


> I must say that the little "kicker" on the rear-top of the the vane gave me fits getting my Bitzenburger clamp to hold the vanes in decent position for a good bond.


I remedied this problem by disassembling the Bitzenberger straight clamp, laying out the area that needed to be relieved to accommodate the kicker, and carefully ground it down using a 5" abrasive wheel.

QuicksSpin vanes now are able to be clamped adequately..


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

SandSquid said:


> I fear that several may not have achieved a optimum contact and thus adhesion to the shaft.


After allowing the vanes to dry over night, I went ahead and "tugged" on them. The ones that were adhered well did not budge. those that were less than ideal popped right off in my hand.

7 out of 18 popped right off, not good odds, IMO.

While dry-fitting replacements I noticed that my Bitzenberger straight clamps' clamping edge was in fact NOT straight, but rather it contacted at the "toe" and "heel". to make sure it was not the arrow shaft bowing under the pressure of the clamp, I checked it on a granite surface plate... WOW was it ever off.

So, I carefully lapped it straight, and then refletched the shafts. I feel I am getting a much better mating now between the vanes base and the arrow shaft.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

Most interesting test John! I get a lot of requests for info on best vanes for the nano's. I am watching your thread to see your results which I know from past experience are objective and as scientific as an archer can get!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

VeroShooter said:


> Most interesting test John!


Mike, perhaps you can clarify something for me concerning indexing the nock to the shaft and the placement of the cock-vane.

In reference to the SAP “spine align process”, it is stated that this procedure finds the stiff side of the spine and the label is applied to that side.

Which label specifically? The screened label where the tolerance designation and draw weight are. Or the "NanoForce" sticker label.


Also, I'm thinking that perhaps the cock-vane should be applied 180° from this location for a left handed finger shooter, no?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I used a dremel tool to get my clamp to hold the quick spins tightly... Just did a dozen last night 

Interesting experiment you've got! Look forward to more.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*VaneTec FITA 1.75" arrived.*

The VaneTec FITA 1.75" vanes came in yesterday.

I'd have to say they are the nicest _looking_ vanes, but look aren’t everything. It's how they fly on these shafts that really matters.


I'll be fletching up a half dozen arrows with them, beginning this evening, hopefully. But first I need to find a suitable "medium viscosity liquid CA or instant adhesive, that is NOT a gel." I just know I still have half a bottle of Victory Bond-All, somewhere in all this clutter!!!! otherwise I'll head off to the store for some permatex or loctite


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

SandSquid said:


> Mike, perhaps you can clarify something for me concerning indexing the nock to the shaft and the placement of the cock-vane.
> 
> In reference to the SAP “spine align process”, it is stated that this procedure finds the stiff side of the spine and the label is applied to that side.
> 
> ...



The NanoForce Label. 
In my opinion it does not matter which side you use as long as you do them all the same. Some have differing opinions on that though.


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## vaneinfo (May 9, 2005)

*Looks*



SandSquid said:


> The VaneTec FITA 1.75" vanes came in yesterday.
> 
> I'd have to say they are the nicest _looking_ vanes, but look aren’t everything. It's how they fly on these shafts that really matters.
> 
> ...


Come on it's gotta help!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vaneinfo said:


> Come on it's gotta help!


Perhaps not... "Placebo effect"


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*Preliminary testing*

I had my "top" shooter at the range last night, her NFAA 300 round scores are averaging in the low 240's. she's shooting the 28# Win&Win @ 27"

we shot 3 rounds of 24 arrows consisting of:

(6) V3 Bi-Delta Shark Tooth 2.5" Left Helical
(6) V1 QuickSpin 1.5" straight no offset
(6) V1 VaneTec FITA 1.75" Left Helical
(6) V1 TrueFlight 4" Parabolic Feathers Left Helical

Bow was has been tuned and sighted in for the Bi-Delta's moths ago, and was not adjusted during the testing.

The shooter was handed arrows in completely random order but never the same two fletching types in a row, and told to keep shooting at the center.

Bi-Delta's grouped in the center, as would be expected.

Quickspin grouped center/right

Vanetec grouped top/center

TrueFlight feathers grouped low/left


The battery on my digital camera died so I was not able to take any pictures.
I was very bummed!

Other observations:

Each grouping size was roughly the same, there was no clear "best group". I was quite surprised by this. I was really hoping that one or two vanes would be visibly better than all the others. Hopefully shooting sighting in and then shooting a full 300 round with the same arrows will show _something
_

The only arrows that I or any of the other observers could visibly see any obvious signs of rotation (spin) on going down range was the TrueFlight Feathers.

The Quick Spins were much nosier that all the others.



One of our longbow archers 40# @ 28" tried shooting the V1 TrueFlight 4" Parabolic Feathers Left Helical , he absolutely loved them and tried to buy them from me on the spot. I politely declined but old him he could shoot them any time he wanted to.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Last evening I had my 2 top shooters shooting 12 arrow ends consisting of (6) Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharks Tooth and the (6) VaneTec 1.75 FITA vanes in alternating succession. 

First they sighted in with 2 ends of (6) VaneTec, then we mixed the Bi-Delta's in to see how they compared.

There was ZERO over-all left/right variation between the two.


Both grouped equally well.


The VaneTec shot slightly higher. However there was a good deal of what I'll call "overlap in the middle". 
In other words the "higher" Bi-Delta's of an end and the "lower" VaneTec of the same end often over-lapped in the middle. 
On several occasions they even hit each other, and we replaced a few pin nocks in the process.



I cannot honestly choose one vane over the other as being "clearly better".

I asked the shooters which they would prefer to shoot, both stated "either one shoots fine with me." 
One stated she liked the bright colors of the VaneTec because "it stood out against the target face better".
The other stated she liked the "distinctive shape" of the Bi-Delta, "I know which arrows are mine."



From a maintenance perspective, I have been having some issues w/ the VaneTec's coming off the shafts... 
It's quite frustrating on this coach's end as I am meticulous about my shaft preperation. My wife says: I "put Mr. Monk to shame in my Obsessive Compulsive cleaning."

In examination, the glue is adhering to the shafts just fine, it is not adhering evenly to the base of the vane. I have tried some "fresh" medium and thin CA glues from the local model building shop, and Bohning Fletch-Tite Platinum, Bohning Instant Gel straight form Bohning last month, and Victory Bond-All. No single adhesive seems to be better or worse.

I should note that these are the only vanes that I specifically do NOT clean the base of before gluing up, as I was advised not to. 
The manufacturers web page states "Instant Bonding, No Prep Required" and "Best Possible Adhesion, No Prep" and "Absolutely No Plasticizer or Mold Release"


I just received a tube of Flex-Bond along w/ some vanes from FlexFletch, so I'll try that.

If that does not help, I'm going to try prepping the base of the vanes as I do with all my others.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Great experiment...


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Well, it's been a great exercise in futility.

So far the only thing I've been able to come up with, is it really doesn't matter what vanes you use, at least out to 20 yards.




So, I'm definitely keeping the following:

The V3's w/ the Bi-Delta vanes. 
We've been shooting them since the NanoForce's were released, they are really well adhered, no need to mess with them.... And they are our benchmark until all this is done.

The V1's with the natural feathers
The are great for shooting off the Martin & Internature Viper Long Bows and the Bear Tamerlane HC-300

The V1's w/ the VaneTec 1.75 FITA vanes
I'll just keep chasing the loose vanes until they are all adhered well, or I run out of spares to replace them with.



I'm going to strip off the Quick-Spin's
They group well enough on their own to be considered perfectly useable, but: 
They group too far outside of "the norm" set by the other vanes for my tastes.
They are really just too fussy to deal with, getting them to seat properly in the clamps.
They are really loud, and we are not gaining any noticeable spin from them at these speeds and distances.
None of my shooters put up any resistance when I suggested stripping them and trying something else in their place.
Perhaps they are great from a faster bow, or at a greater distance, but they just aren’t "it", for this task.

I'll use the QuickSpins that I have left to fletch some of the Victory Buck Buster arrows that have the stinger broaheads and G5 small game heads on them, for use with my 50# Martin P3 hunting bow. They will be great for gophers, rabbits, armadillos and the ferral cats pissing in my vegetable garden.


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## vaneinfo (May 9, 2005)

*Adhesive-VT 1000*

Sandsquid, I'll send you some adhesive that will permanently attatch the VaneTec 1.75's. Wasn't going to release it until the ATA show but those vanes properly applied (without prep) won't come off while shooting. I'll include some more vanes.
Apply a *tiny* continuous bead of the adhesive down the center of the vane base and apply firm, even pressure for about 5-6 seconds and remove the clamp carefully. If the vane tip and back stay down it is fixtured and just needs to set for a while to cure.
If this doesn't work then clean the shaft with Simple Green 50/50 with warm water. Rinse with warm water and air dry.

These adhesives are very sensitive to other chemicals. The moisture the carbon retains from the wash helps speed fixture time.

Chris


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vaneinfo said:


> Sandsquid, I'll send you some adhesive that will permanently attatch the VaneTec 1.75's. Wasn't going to release it until the ATA show but those vanes properly applied (without prep) won't come off while shooting. I'll include some more vanes.



Got them today!




> Apply a *tiny* continuous bead of the adhesive down the center of the vane base and apply firm, even pressure for about 5-6 seconds and remove the clamp carefully. If the vane tip and back stay down it is fixtured and just needs to set for a while to cure.


I'm getting the tiniest bit of squeeze-out as pictured
Is this too much, just right, or too little glue?


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Fletching went fairly smoothly...

Followed Chris' instruction to the letter.

This new glue is VERY STRONG, from the outset. The vanes that stuck, REALLY stuck! 

They stuck so well the vane distorted and the plastic(?) stretched before the bond ever gave way. Impressive bond after only 5 minute of cure time.

Those that did not stick plucked right off. It's really all of nothing.

On the bummer side, it "blushes" the most of any glue I've ever used. It could be possible that this was caused by me applying too much adhesive, and if I did not get any squeeze-out perhaps it would not have blushed. And I really tried my darnedest to put on as little as possible, but every time I did the vane plucked right off after 5 minutes of cure as opposed to being super-stuck. Having a choice between the two I'd take super-stuck and just ignore the blushing, but it does detract from the over-all appearance of the finished product.


The Red White & Blue vanes compliment the labels of the NanoForce quite nicely.


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## vaneinfo (May 9, 2005)

*Blooming*

Sandsquid,

Blooming is caused by moisture being drawn by the adhesive. Too much humidity in the air combined with a little too much adhesive will cause this.
Also moisture can be drawn from an arrow that is too wet. These adhesives are touchy with humidity but as you can see bond well with the Urethane.
Usually the residue can be wiped off after adhesive is cured.
If you give it another try warm up all of your components for a while and see if that doesn't get rid of the residue.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

vaneinfo said:


> Sandsquid,
> 
> Blooming is caused by moisture being drawn by the adhesive. Too much humidity in the air combined with a little too much adhesive will cause this.


I'm sure the 93% Humidity isn't helping anything.




> Usually the residue can be wiped off after adhesive is cured.


I cleaned them up this morning w/ a green scotchbrite pad and some dish detergent.
Seems to have gotten rid of most of it.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

My findings so far:

The VaneTec 1.75" FITA vanes are shooting just fine. all the shooters are digging them and enjoying the testing.

They are grouping well, especially for my 2 State Champions (Cub Female and Adult Female) The novice is really not shooting accurately enough to begin with to determine a clear grouping pattern.

There is certainly no reason ever to strip the arrows _just_ to use something else. 

Combined with the VaneTec adhesive they should never come off on their own. I doubt we could even shoot them off.

They "spin up" a little further down range than the Bi-Delta sharks tooth, but this is purely a subjective observation as I have no way of accurately measuring it other than casual observation.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

*Flex-Fletch FFP175 & FFP187*

After extensive correspondence w/ Dan Grundman (Production Manager and Co-Owner for Flex-Fletch, he wanted me to try his FFp187 and FFP175 vanes along with his Flex-Bond adhesive.

The Flex-Bond adhesive is (to me) very much like Bohning Platinum but a bit thicker. Dan warned me, that because it has a higher silod content than Platinum, not to use as much because it would only prolong curing time and would not provided a better bond. 

Seems to be a recurring theme here: "Don't use too much adhesive!!!"

And this is where I always seem to over-do it. I is very difficult for me to apply just the thinnest bead of adhesive without overdoing it.
According to everybody I should be getting just the tiniest shadow of squeeze-out, bur I invariably either get gobs or none.
You'd think after fletching over 50 dozen arrows over the past year, I'd have calibrated my flow by now!!!



Initially (a few weeks ago) he only sent me enough vanes to fletch up 3 arrows in each type, but later when I explained what exactly I was doing he said he's send out enough for 6 arrows of each type.

For now, until they come in we will be shooting (3) FFP187 and (3)FFP175 

He advised to fletch them helical with as much offset as the diameter of my shafts would allow and still get adequate adhesion. Which really isn't much with such a narrow diameter shaft!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Well, it's been a great exercise in futility.
> 
> So far the only thing I've been able to come up with, is it really doesn't matter what vanes you use, at least out to 20 yards.
> ......


I was thinking about this....

I don't know about your recurves, but when i was trying to bare shaft tune with my compound bow, at 20 yards, it didn't seem like there was much difference at all, with or without vanes.

But, at 30 yards, the bare shafts were so loosely grouped that the bare shaft tuning was utterly useless.

You've inspired me, in your results, to order some of the cheaper NAP 'twister' vanes, and see if I actually get similar grouping between the 'twister' and the 'quickspin kicker'. I don't have any problem getting the quickspins into my jig, as I used the dremel to make it work, but if it's possible that they simply group the same, well... what I really liked about them most of all was the durability....

Thanks again for taking the time to do something useful for the rest of us!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

After extensive shooting at 18 Meters and 20 Yards shooting NAA & NFAA target faces I can discern _no practical difference between _VaneTec FITA or FlexFeltch FFP187. 

The TrueFlight 4" Round Back natural feathers, do a better job at correcting for the human factor, however this is at the expense of speed and a flat trajectory.

Because we are not FITA shooters, nor is there a large enough range available to us I could not safely test past 40 Yards, this is where the Natural feathers sucked wind, (pun intended). A moderate breeze really effected the flight from even with 28# @ 28" on the fingers.


Base on all this shooting, fletching, shooting, scraping, fletching, more shooting, scraping, fletching, yet more shooting, I must conclude:


Outdoor:
-----> VaneTec FITA or FlexFeltch FFP187



Indoor:
-----> For the less experienced < 250 shooters, with less than perfect form (such as myself)
TrueFlight 4" Round Back natural feathers.

----> For those rare 250+ shooters: Whatever makes them happy!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

SandSquid said:


> Base on all this shooting, fletching, shooting, scraping, fletching, more shooting, scraping, fletching, yet more shooting, I must conclude:
> 
> ----> For those rare 250+ shooters: Whatever makes them happy!



Also I think it is important to note that the QuickSpins, Blazer Mini and Blazer Micro vanes all performed rather poorly_ in this application_.

Perhaps with some higher draw weighs scooting out a few more FPS and at greater distances they may shine but not here.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

SandSquid said:


> Also I think it is important to note that the QuickSpins, Blazer Mini and Blazer Micro vanes all performed rather poorly_ in this application_.
> 
> Perhaps with some higher draw weighs scooting out a few more FPS and at greater distances they may shine but not here.


My experience with quik spins at 40+ yards is that they tend to let my arrows group as close as I can manage vs. the few other vanes I've tried. I don't know if they're better or not... But they seem fine.

I was also thinking about your 'bump right' experience with them. It would be interesting to check out with a high speed camera, to see if the arrows were coming off the bow as straight as the others. If the 'kicker' thingies were actually making contact on the rest or the riser, they could bump the arrow right, on a right-handed bow, I would think. I only use the Quikspins on my compound bows with a fork rest and a drop away, and they don't seem to honestly group left or right any differently than either the 'Twister' variety or the generic 'Plastifletch'.

It would be great if somebody could do the same kind of testing with high speed compounds at 40/60/80/100 yards as well, though I don't know who would have(and be willing to expend) the time and resources for that. What you've done in the area you've done is a real service, and I'm sure lots of us appreciate it.

So, THANKS!


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> It would be interesting to check out with a high speed camera, to see if the arrows were coming off the bow as straight as the others.


There are lots of things i would have loved to have looked at w/ the high-speed, but I just don't have access to one ;-(


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## skullerud (Apr 12, 2007)

SandSquid said:


> I must say that the little "kicker" on the rear-top of the the vane gave me fits getting my Bitzenburger clamp to hold the vanes in decent position for a good bond.
> I "wasted" a 7 vanes in the process, of getting the half dozen arrows fletched. I fear that several may not have achieved a optimum contact and thus adhesion to the shaft.
> 
> I'm thinking that perhaps padding up the clamps very edge to prevent the kicker from getting in the way will help?
> ...


I've been shooting quik spin for some years now, and I've solved the kickerproblem on my fletching jig with my dremel.
just cut out a small groove for the kicker and it works just fine.


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