# The creation of a good sight tape



## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

As many of you know, I've posed this question several times before, but don't feel like I've received any cut-and-dry answers. So...here it is:

Whether you use Archer's Advantage, On Target, or The Archery Program (the best I've used so far), what is the point of entering all kinds of information into the program when you could simply enter the dial scale of the sight you use and 2 good marks? Based on the scale of the sight, as well as the gap between your two marks, shouldn't this take everything else into account as well? This should tell you your speed (pretty close), correct? 

I've used this method several times, without entering anything into TAP but the type of sight I use, as well as great 20 and 60 yard marks, and my tapes have literally been PERFECT in terms of elevation at every other distance out to 80 yards and as close as the Birdie targets. So...why bother entering all the other information, like peep-pin, peep-arrow, etc...? 

Thanks.


----------



## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Nick,
A few things to consider:

1) A lot of the data requested by these programs is there for the purpose of arrow selection/arrow compatibility. But, I'm pretty sure you can pick out those parts.

2) Peep to sight and peep to arrow DO come into consideration when determining marks and therefore, MUST have a value. 

3) I've been making my living for nearly 30 years writing computer programs. Trust me, if I "knew" that users would always supply all necessary data "in the expected format", then my job would be much easier.

4) But, trust me again, if a program can be broke, someone, somewhere will find a way to do it.

5) Therefore, as much or more time is required to account for inept users than is required to write the "proof of concept" code.

6) The fact that you got good marks by supplying a minimum amount of data is a pretty good indication that the authors of these programs took into consideration the fact that "required" values may be left out. SO, I'd bet my last $ that deep within the source code of these programs there are default values set for "all" required data pieces.

7) I don't want call it a "hack" but I was able to determine the default value in AA for the Peep to Sight value (default 28) and the Peep Height value (default 4). Just wonder how close those "defaults" are to your actual values.

8) AA has a range of 12-50 for the Peep to Sight value and a range of .5-12 for the Peep Height value. 

9) I just ran a set of marks using the real values (30.06 & 4.13) with 2 good marks - the 80 yard mark came out as 53.3. I then set both of these to the max values (50 & 12) and using the same 2 marks, the 80 mark was then 83.7. Quite a difference that only proves that these values are "used".

10) When you supply these programs "arrow information", I'd also wager that there's something else going on in the background that few have considered. These programs have a database of arrow data that includes among many other things the diameter of the arrow. Of course the larger the diameter of the arrow, the more surface area, thus the more drag. But as is the case with the other bits of data, if you don't supply arrow information, behind the scenes, the programs are using some default arrow that is probably a "common" size.

11) In my opinion, the one piece of data that is calculated and/or asked for in all these programs that has the least effect on the "finished marks" is the arrow weight. Arrow weight will effect the amount of drop, but that is easily "backed into" by comparing the 2 supplied distances and marks.

12) So why do these programs calculate and/or ask for arrow weight? Because it gives many users a "warm and fuzzy" feeling. 

BTW: I wasn't calling you "inept". In reality, we as programmers actually appreciate those like you that will "experiment".


----------



## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

*Nice*

Cool, Lee. Thanks a lot for that answer! Now...another question...

If I have good marks already (elevation being virtually spot-on for all distances out to 80 yards), what benefit would I have to gain by entering every miniscule piece of data? Can't get much better than what I have now! My only guess is that my stock measurements must be pretty close to those that are default in TAP.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

What would you gain by entering it all now?

You can play with other combos in the program...arrow changes...draw weight changes etc...

But you can also pull your setup and not really need to do it again later (get marks) if you do change something, be it a draw weight or length tweek, or even an arrow switch...put the changes in and print a new tape and you will be good to go. :wink:

I always put everything in....but I do it for different reasons....once I get a feel for a bow. I can make a tape without getting any marks. I have used a bunny mark that I got in the house and made marks... actually the tape I shot on the Hill last year was with one of those...

Some of us can do what I do....the majority of us can do it the way you did with 2 marks...I use one in OT2. If they are off...like they were this past weekend. It's me or the setup....in this case it was the setup...I changed rest and forgot that I hadn't shot it through paper to double check things :doh:

I prefer to shoot a course vs getting marks so anything that will help me spend less time getting marks is a plus


----------



## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> What would you gain by entering it all now?
> 
> You can play with other combos in the program...arrow changes...draw weight changes etc...
> 
> ...


Point taken. I guess it's basically a matter of convenience and whether or not one would want to get two good marks again after making a change. Personally, I don't mind it, so I'll continue as normal and get good tapes with 2 good marks.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

CherryJu1ce said:


> Point taken. I guess it's basically a matter of convenience and whether or not one would want to get two good marks again after making a change. Personally, I don't mind it, so I'll continue as normal and get good tapes with 2 good marks.


True....but it can also help weed out bad marks :wink: Not saying that YOU will have a bad mark....but I know a lot of people can and do get them simply because of their ability or how they shoot.

For me though a lot of times I will go to the range with NOTHING when setting up a bow....I may know where say my 40 should be roughly. Punch it in the program....get my marks...then go shoot and just adjust my needle then I have marks or marks that are very darn close


----------



## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm not at liberty to say much about it :zip:, but if a program that only asks for the minimum amount of info is what you'd like, then all I can say is "patience my friend".


----------



## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Ever used XSight? It only asks for a couple of things.. sight info - clicks per turn and turns per inch and the yardage ranges you want on your tape. Enter three marks and it spits you out a tape.. you can enter more than three if you desire. 

I've never really tried it, but I have it.. I'll run some #'s and see what it says.. :nod:


----------



## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

pragmatic_lee said:


> I'm not at liberty to say much about it :zip:, but if a program that only asks for the minimum amount of info is what you'd like, then all I can say is "patience my friend".


But Lee, I keep getting great tapes! Elevation is dead-nuts at every single yardage out to 80 yards (haven't shot past that yet). 

And yes...I am patient:thumbs_up



IGluIt4U said:


> Ever used XSight? It only asks for a couple of things.. sight info - clicks per turn and turns per inch and the yardage ranges you want on your tape. Enter three marks and it spits you out a tape.. you can enter more than three if you desire.
> 
> I've never really tried it, but I have it.. I'll run some #'s and see what it says.. :nod:


Give it a shot and report the results, please. I'm very curious to see whether or not you get as accurate a tape as I've been getting.


----------



## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

IGluIt4U said:


> Ever used XSight? It only asks for a couple of things.. sight info - clicks per turn and turns per inch and the yardage ranges you want on your tape. Enter three marks and it spits you out a tape.. you can enter more than three if you desire.
> 
> I've never really tried it, but I have it.. I'll run some #'s and see what it says.. :nod:


Nevermind.. :lol: The tapes it gives me are waaay off from my AA tapes, using the same values. I tried giving a 20, 30, 40 mark, it was off at longer.. then I gave a 20, 50, 80 mark and it was still about 3/4" tall on the tape at 80.. :mg: :lol:


----------



## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

I say your setup is pretty close to the typical defaults and if the tapes work like that, unless you make a dramatic setup change, go with em.. :thumb:


----------



## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

IGluIt4U said:


> I say your setup is pretty close to the typical defaults and if the tapes work like that, unless you make a dramatic setup change, go with em.. :thumb:


Ahh the benefits of being a perfect model of archery consistency...:jam:
Just call me the human Hooter Shooter from now on:darkbeer:


----------



## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

The only real reason that you need all those entries is to get the speed correct via calculation. Other then that you do not need all the extra entries. If you do not believe this then try moving your sight bar in and out. Your marks change. Heck some days when the air is very heavy and all your marks are hitting low then only thing that you may need to do is move your sight bar in a notch or so. This will spread your numbers out and allow for you to hit where you are aiming instead of adding a yard to your sight. You use to be able to buy a plastic scale from Lancaster that allowed you to get all your marks. You anly needed to get 2 good marks. you then laid the plastic template over your 2 good marks. Put the 20 mark from the template over your 20 mark on your sight. You then looked for the intersection point where your 60 mark crossed the template 60 mark. Once you have this you can mark ALL your marks onto your sight. Simple math. Another way to look at it is: A bow that shoots 200 fps and the sight is 1 inch past the riser could have the same sight tape that a 280fps bow has when the sight is 9 inches away from the riser.


----------



## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Also, I use 30 and 60 yard for my marks. If I use 20 yards then I shoot at the bunny target. I get a more precise mark this way.


----------



## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

I've played with a lot of sight tape programs and in a lot of different ways and trust me when I say that I use these programs in more ways than most people would even think to!!!

TAP-not impressed at all, this is the schwin of archery software

OT2-looks great, people that use it love it, but in reality this software is a joke, when the owner tells me that I need to download an older version and change this and that data wise to get the marks "close" (why would an older verison work better than a newer one????) This is the Lexus ES300....it looks great and will get you from point A to point B but in all reality it's just a Camry with leather!!!

AA-This is the original and still the best otherwise known as the Bentley!!! Whether on you PC, Laptop or even palm (and soon I hear to your iPhone) best there is period. 

Now as for the entering info:
DO you need to enter it all? NO
Will it give you usable/great results if you don't? YES
But why would you spend the money for a program and not use it how it's meant to be used, that'd be like buying a Bentley then taking the bus to work????

Oh and if I didn't mention a software...................THERE's A REASON!!!!


----------



## camoham (Nov 3, 2004)

IGluIt4U said:


> Nevermind.. :lol: The tapes it gives me are waaay off from my AA tapes, using the same values. I tried giving a 20, 30, 40 mark, it was off at longer.. then I gave a 20, 50, 80 mark and it was still about 3/4" tall on the tape at 80.. :mg: :lol:


xsight is what i have used..........just because i havent bothered to drop clams on better programs.

initially i think i only used maybe 2 marks. i quickly discovered alot of other marks were way off.

i tinkered with 3 entered values.

with 4 my tape is okay.................well i know out to 65-70 yards. havent checked 75-80. i know the marks in between are pretty much dead on. if i get time and a good day...............want to check the last leg.

think i used 20 30 50 and 55. (noticed that the longer yardages benefited from confirming marks in smaller increments after 50.)

i like the fact that you can change the colors of yardage lines on your tape. you can basically customize it to how you see fit.

either way, i figure at some point.......................the chart is going to be better than i am.

camoham


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

My thoughts....

First off, you have to have the peep to sight and peep to arrow right. We're making a sight tape, and without those right, you might as well skip the whole thing.

Second, forget using your "marks" to figure out the speed. At 20yds, I bet there is a range of clicks that you would be happy with that would still put it in the X, and at 60yds, even the slightest movement or inconsistency will throw this off. The apps are made to work with the initial speed of the arrow, so do it the easy way....shoot it through a good chrono!

Now you've got a tape for the sight that should be really close. Get it on there and match it to where you think the marks should be and then shoot it through 5 yd increments and fine tune the pin/magnifying glass so that it works and runs close to comparison of the printed out charts based on the numbers that already on the sight. This may never be perfect, but it will get you close enough that its more likely that you are off than the tape. If the speed is not right, tape will get progressively worse as you move farther away from a good mark.

My .02


----------



## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

I used AA and Tap for years...what a waste of time. Some WV/MD boys turned me on to the pre-printed LAS sight tapes. Shoot a 30 and 50 match the tape, slap it on and shoot. If it's good enough for the best in the country it's good enough for me.:mg:


----------



## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

CherryJu1ce said:


> As many of you know, I've posed this question several times before, but don't feel like I've received any cut-and-dry answers. So...here it is:
> 
> Whether you use Archer's Advantage, On Target, or The Archery Program (the best I've used so far), what is the point of entering all kinds of information into the program when you could simply enter the dial scale of the sight you use and 2 good marks? Based on the scale of the sight, as well as the gap between your two marks, shouldn't this take everything else into account as well? This should tell you your speed (pretty close), correct?
> 
> ...


Cherry,
Here's my take on your question. Your 2 sightmarks represent 2 points on a ballistic curve which is used to find how fast an obect drops as it advances forward. Objects drop at the same rate whether they have forward motion or not, so an arrow dropped from a given height will hit the ground at the same time as one shot level with the ground from that same height.
So if your arrow hits the X at 20 and 60 yards the computer can plot the rest of the yardages based on the drop between those two points. It doesn't matter how fast your bow is or how far the sight is extended or how high your peep is or if you threw the arrow by hand. It's all going to fall on the same ballistic curve. So what you're seeing is correct, 2 good marks and a ballistic program will give you a good sight tape.
*What the two marks won't do is give you any idea about the speed of your bow which needs to be known to calculate the correct arrow size for your set-up. *That's the reason for all of the other measurements and bow and arrow parameters. Without knowing arrow weight, drag caused by the fletching and arrow size, distance from the peep to the sight, etc., the speed can't be calculated and you'd have to chrono your set-up to get it.
The only measurements you do have to make to go along with your 2 shot in marks are the peep to sight and peep height measurments. These will give you a paralax angle which is used to calculate the very short yardages where your sight reverses. This reversal happens as you get closer to the target since the arrow at some point doesn't get high enough to cross your line of sight. These two measurements will be used to give you your birdie marks, which would be off if you don't enter them.
For me, the programs worked much better than the line charts I've tried but these may have been improved too.
These are my own thoughts on your question and I'm sure not everyone will agree. Let me know what you think.
Joe B.


----------



## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

zenarch said:


> Cherry,
> Here's my take on your question. Your 2 sightmarks represent 2 points on a ballistic curve which is used to find how fast an obect drops as it advances forward. Objects drop at the same rate whether they have forward motion or not, so an arrow dropped from a given height will hit the ground at the same time as one shot level with the ground from that same height.
> So if your arrow hits the X at 20 and 60 yards the computer can plot the rest of the yardages based on the drop between those two points. It doesn't matter how fast your bow is or how far the sight is extended or how high your peep is or if you threw the arrow by hand. It's all going to fall on the same ballistic curve. So what you're seeing is correct, 2 good marks and a ballistic program will give you a good sight tape.
> *What the two marks won't do is give you any idea about the speed of your bow which needs to be known to calculate the correct arrow size for your set-up. *That's the reason for all of the other measurements and bow and arrow parameters. Without knowing arrow weight, drag caused by the fletching and arrow size, distance from the peep to the sight, etc., the speed can't be calculated and you'd have to chrono your set-up to get it.
> ...


Well...that makes sense, except my birdie target marks are perfect as well. Thanks for the input, though...I'll remember that in the future.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

CherryJu1ce said:


> Well...that makes sense, except my birdie target marks are perfect as well. Thanks for the input, though...I'll remember that in the future.


I agree....I used ONE mark my 70...to get all my marks in OT2 the other day....my short marks were dead on. I had a brain fart and shot a 4 on my last one of the day but the other 7 were X's as were the 15 and under on the hunter half.


----------



## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> I agree....I used ONE mark my 70...to get all my marks in OT2 the other day....my short marks were dead on. I had a brain fart and shot a 4 on my last one of the day but the other 7 were X's as were the 15 and under on the hunter half.


Hornet,
What would you set your sight on to shoot a 4 yard target???
Joe B.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

zenarch said:


> Hornet,
> What would you set your sight on to shoot a 4 yard target???
> Joe B.


Haven't run into a 4yd/12ft targets on a field round this year so I don't know off the top of my head....not that I know my bunny marks or any of the others for that matter off the top of my head either  but I do have them 

But like I said...the marks I have from OT2 are dead on @ 35ft, 33ft, 30ft, 25ft, 20ft and the other under 20yds....no I don't hold off on any of them....


----------



## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

Great thread. Some really good discussion on a subject we have all questioned from time to time. :darkbeer:
Keep the thoughts coming....
DFA


----------



## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Haven't run into a 4yd/12ft targets on a field round this year so I don't know off the top of my head....not that I know my bunny marks or any of the others for that matter off the top of my head either  but I do have them
> 
> But like I said...the marks I have from OT2 are dead on @ 35ft, 33ft, 30ft, 25ft, 20ft and the other under 20yds....no I don't hold off on any of them....


I don't question your marks but there has to be more input to any program than just 2 marks to get them. If you're going to the Mids we can discuss it there.
Joe B.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Sorry Joe not going...

But I do put in more then just my mark (I only use one most times). 

I use OT2...and I build my setup in the program.


----------

