# NFAA Nationals w/ late fee $135



## J Whittington

I agree with you. Im opposed to late fees period. Currently archery is not big enough to warrant turning people away. In other words, the NFAA needs you much more than you need them. The negative business attitude is one of the reasons why I have not renewed my membership to their orginization.


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## N7709K

Its 275$ for me when I get to Louisville... Yeah late fees ain't the best, but it could be worse.


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## Unclegus

deer_slayer1982 said:


> $50 for a late fee this is pretty steep. I normally sign up after sectionals and still would of caught the $50 late fee.


 That's why you pay attention and don't get caught with your pants down.


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## xring1

$50 late fee really? and nobody can figure out why the nfaa is losing members!!


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## Unclegus

They probably won't lose the ones that are responsible enough to pay their fees on time.


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## sunburn

The tired trade magazine they put out arrives a month late , every issue ! Said publication includes applications to Nationals - DURP ! 
We are in the state of "Live " Technology 

For a venue to charge a late fee for an undersold show with a lot of empty seats , is well embarrassing


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## deer_slayer1982

sunburn said:


> The tired trade magazine they put out arrives a month late , every issue ! Said publication includes applications to Nationals - DURP !
> We are in the state of "Live " Technology
> 
> For a venue to charge a late fee for an undersold show with a lot of empty seats , is well embarrassing


Maybe we should send them a $50 late charge.


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## brtesite

they only impose the late fee to make it a little easier on the registration crew.
Can you imagine the lines at Vegas Or the Indoor if there was no late fee. Then everyone would complain NFAA should get more people registering the shooters so you wouldn't have to wait so long


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## blueglide1

You know what the camp cook says in Deer camp? If ya dont like it ........
It works when I do the wifes laundry too,LOL I dont do it anymore......


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## xring1

brtesite said:


> they only impose the late fee to make it a little easier on the registration crew.
> Can you imagine the lines at Vegas Or the Indoor if there was no late fee. Then everyone would complain NFAA should get more people registering the shooters so you wouldn't have to wait so long


 late fee !!! wonder just how much we the members are paying for Bruce and his drones to stay,travel and eat there for probally a week???


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## USNarcher

You guys are funny. Have you ever run a tournament? Are you guys the ones standing around on the first day complaining because the shotgun was supposed to blast off at 9 and here it is 920. Late starts are a direct result of late registrations. The late fee is there to discourage people from waiting til the last minute. Of course everyone is welcome but late registration creates huge logistic issues and it multiplies with the more shooters there are. Of course we all have had that time when we didn't think that we was gonna attend and at the last minute decided to go. At a state level the extra fee is compensation to the club for the extra work that has to be done. Volunteer to work in the registration booth at Nationals Friday night and Saturday morning then come back on here and complain about the late fee, Natalie and company would love to have some extra help.


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## gcab

They had this years nationals posted the NFAA website since before last years nationals. So why not just register on time? Its not like it snuck up on anybody or they posted the date a week before. You knew when it was for over a year, so how is the NFAA's fault that you didn't register before the date given? I will admit, i am the first to complain about them taking forever to post line times and lane assignments, but that is for the second day which shouldnt be an issue. But I know that if they eliminate the late fee, then noone registers before they get there and we'll be up waiting for line times until midnight just like we have to for the second day. So why not just pay attention and pay on time like the 1100 other people did?


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## FV Chuck

xring1 said:


> late fee !!! wonder just how much we the members are paying for *Bruce and his drones to stay,travel and eat there for probally a week???*


I'm pretty offended by your remark...

as a volunteer I dont get paid jack to spend 8 days in Vegas setting up your event. I dont get paid a cent to do it for 4 days in Louisville either or any other venue or event for that matter.

I have so much I'd like to say to you....Thankfully, public decency prevents it.

I will say this though-
Maybe while your in Louisville you can find me working somewhere and tell me how much you appreciate all the volunteers that show up to put on the event. I'll even keep a spare set of gloves handy for you in case you'd like to pitch in. You know, for the kids or something...

CHuck


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## rsarns

FV Chuck said:


> I'm pretty offended by your remark...
> 
> as a volunteer I dont get paid jack to spend 8 days in Vegas setting up your event. I dont get paid a cent to do it for 4 days in Louisville either or any other venue or event for that matter.
> 
> I have so much I'd like to say to you....Thankfully, public decency prevents it.
> 
> I will say this though-
> Maybe while your in Louisville you can find me working somewhere and tell me how much you appreciate all the volunteers that show up to put on the event. I'll even keep a spare set of gloves handy for you in case you'd like to pitch in. You know, for the kids or something...
> 
> CHuck


Well said!


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## FV Chuck

USNarcher said:


> You guys are funny. Have you ever run a tournament? Are you guys the ones standing around on the first day complaining because the shotgun was supposed to blast off at 9 and here it is 920. Late starts are a direct result of late registrations. The late fee is there to discourage people from waiting til the last minute. Of course everyone is welcome but late registration creates huge logistic issues and it multiplies with the more shooters there are. Of course we all have had that time when we didn't think that we was gonna attend and at the last minute decided to go. At a state level the extra fee is compensation to the club for the extra work that has to be done. Volunteer to work in the registration booth at Nationals Friday night and Saturday morning then come back on here and complain about the late fee, Natalie and company would love to have some extra help.



AAAAAAAAAAAAAmen brother!!


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> I'm pretty offended by your remark...
> 
> as a volunteer I dont get paid jack to spend 8 days in Vegas setting up your event. I dont get paid a cent to do it for 4 days in Louisville either or any other venue or event for that matter.
> 
> I have so much I'd like to say to you....Thankfully, public decency prevents it.
> 
> I will say this though-
> Maybe while your in Louisville you can find me working somewhere and tell me how much you appreciate all the volunteers that show up to put on the event. I'll even keep a spare set of gloves handy for you in case you'd like to pitch in. You know, for the kids or something...
> 
> CHuck


Well said, Chuck!
USNArcher also said it well!

People had a year to register for the event. It is ridiculous for those that are on top of things, proactive, and are committed to being ON TIME to get penalized by those that are procrastinators that wait until the last second to register!
I'm totally in support of late fees being imposed for not meeting the sign up deadline. I'm also in support of "no refunds" after a given date for those that did register ahead of time, too. That penalty being that the early registrants end up paying the same money as the tardy ones, thus no advantage to registering ahead of time.

As far as the constant whining and crying about how late it is for 2nd day's line time and lane assignments to be posted....volunteer to help get this stuff done, and once you've been there doing it, you'll quickly learn that it is NOT that simple and easy to do. One mistake can really screw things up for that 2nd day's positioning, line times, and lane assignments!

Once again, if you allow ALL the procrastinators to pay the same registration fee as those responsible enough to "take care of business", then you are asking for a big pile-up at the last minute and HUGE delays in getting the lines started on time, along with the likelihood of a number of mistakes in said assignments happening and screwing things up even more.
Keep charging the LATE FEES!!!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## xring1

I just voiced my opinion and if you dont like it thats ok with me, Iam sure not going to get in a pissing match over $50
and if it offended you iam sorry I didnt know you were one of the drones I allways thought you were one of us!
Iam talking about all the ones who go to these events on the nfaas dime

Dale


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## sunburn

FV Chuck said:


> I'm pretty offended by your remark...
> 
> as a volunteer I dont get paid jack to spend 8 days in Vegas setting up your event. I dont get paid a cent to do it for 4 days in Louisville either or any other venue or event for that matter.
> 
> I have so much I'd like to say to you....Thankfully, public decency prevents it.
> 
> I will say this though-
> Maybe while your in Louisville you can find me working somewhere and tell me how much you appreciate all the volunteers that show up to put on the event. I'll even keep a spare set of gloves handy for you in case you'd like to pitch in. You know, for the kids or something...
> 
> CHuck


 First Thanks , and thanks a lot ! 
I truly mean it , your commitment and promotion of the sport is outstanding ! You play by play commentators voice is pretty damn good as well ! Not many people can afford 8 - 20 plus days away from their daily grind to volunteer even for a great cause.
I by no means have knowledge of the budget involved ,especially at Vegas , I do have the feeling it by no means runs in the red , in other words it seems to be very profitable ? On a local level , clubs put on shoots to generate positive cash flow , members volunteer their time to keep fees down , other things such as refreshments and food 
generate a reasonable profit. 
May I politely ask why such a huge event as Vegas requires so many unpaid " volunteers " ? What sort of profit margin is being made and where do the funds go if people are working for free? 
As a member of the NFAA is this information public ?


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## deadeyedickwc

xring1 yea i go to the shoots on your dime , i work 14 hr days setting up the tournament, for you, i work long days calling arrows for you , if you would like to see how its done please volunteer your services we could use the help.i work so many hours im to tired to shoot but i do it because i want to give back to archery. thanks for your help


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## FV Chuck

xring1 said:


> I just voiced my opinion and if you dont like it thats ok with me, Iam sure not going to get in a pissing match over $50
> and if it offended you iam sorry I didnt know you were one of the drones I allways thought you were one of us!
> Iam talking about all the ones who go to these events on the nfaas dime
> 
> Dale



....you mean the half dozen or so that are old enough to be your grandparents who unload the tractor trailers, build the stands, tape the lines, set the bales, curtains, clocks and towers?... you mean those old wind suckers who are stealing the NFAA blind for a partial room comp and a cold bag lunch?... those same freeloaders who get up at the ass crack of dawn so you can shoot at seven am?, or practice till 8pm?...or need an arrow called?

Those people??

Or is it maybe Natalie and her volunteers who fly in from Yankton so we can have line times, results, and awards?...yeah she only works from about 6am to 11:00pm every day on the road??? That crew??

You attitude repulses me Dale. Youve gone waay past the 50$ comment. You made it personal, it's past opinion
I am NOT a drone... and I am most certainly not one of you or this "us" you speak of... 

Do me a favor and dont look me up - I'm better off


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## FV Chuck

sunburn said:


> First Thanks , and thanks a lot !
> I truly mean it , your commitment and promotion of the sport is outstanding ! You play by play commentators voice is pretty damn good as well ! Not many people can afford 8 - 20 plus days away from their daily grind to volunteer even for a great cause.
> I by no means have knowledge of the budget involved ,especially at Vegas , I do have the feeling it by no means runs in the red , in other words it seems to be very profitable ? On a local level , clubs put on shoots to generate positive cash flow , members volunteer their time to keep fees down , other things such as refreshments and food
> generate a reasonable profit.
> May I politely ask why such a huge event as Vegas requires so many unpaid " volunteers " ? What sort of profit margin is being made and where do the funds go if people are working for free?
> As a member of the NFAA is this information public ?


Thanks - 
I appreciate the support:

#1 Yes - the info is fully public and handed out at every annual meeting. Each Director gets a full financial statement of how and where every dollar goes.
#2 - Vegas is a WAF event, not NFAA...it is profitable, but not to the extent that one would imagine. I dont know how many Casinos youve rented lately but it's a hefty price tag.
#3 - The WAF uses it's funds to support the NFAA in many ways. No one, and I mean NO ONE is making a fortune off what you see at these events. Vegas included.

Vegas needs an army of people to pull off. All of the rooms, including the arena are required to be set and built in less than 2 days, same with teardown - even shorter. this year I spent almost 6hrs with another driver on forklifts unloading 3 trucks to get that show to happen. Louisville will take no less than 2.. it's monumental. it took almost 10 guys to get the carpet laid in the arena in one afternoon...wrapping your head around all that goes on will just put most people in the corner looking at shiny things and petting felt after a few mins.

Ask your Dir or Councilperson to sit down and explain it all on the financial side. It'll blow your mind.

Chuck


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## field14

deadeyedickwc said:


> xring1 yea i go to the shoots on your dime , i work 14 hr days setting up the tournament, for you, i work long days calling arrows for you , if you would like to see how its done please volunteer your services we could use the help.i work so many hours im to tired to shoot but i do it because i want to give back to archery. thanks for your help


Spot on Deadeyedickwc!!! So many grumble about the fees and are nearly clueless of what goes on behind the scenes concerning putting on these events, taking care of ALL the details, etc. IF the people setting up, judging, sorting, inputing the data, re-sorting, assigning line times and lanes, sorting again, figuring out the awards and who gets them, figuring out the checks, writing the checks, and all the other stuff...were being PAID by the hour...the registration fees would be out the roof!
But of course, the whiners and complainers about fees, late fees, "posting scores taking so long"...don't have a clue. They really need to volunteer their services to get things done "their" way and to straighten out the "mess" they complain about. hahahaha.


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## blueglide1

Chuck why do you think I said the camp cook scenario,the old walk a mile in my shoes deal. Most have no freekin idea the work that goes on behind the scenes.Thats why I volunteer to call lines at our state tourney,and run our own tourneys here at home.The guys at Vegas have little time for themselves being on call practically the whole time during the day.I value you and the other volunteers that help,without you guys we are standing in the street with our bows in hand saying *** man where do we shoot? Tom D runs Presleys like a swiis watch and he has a great tournament, Ill cringe when he calls it quits and lets someone else do it.So buck up pal you guys are appreciated. Don Ward


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## sunburn

FV Chuck said:


> Thanks -
> I appreciate the support:
> 
> #1 Yes - the info is fully public and handed out at every annual meeting. Each Director gets a full financial statement of how and where every dollar goes.
> #2 - Vegas is a WAF event, not NFAA...it is profitable, but not to the extent that one would imagine. I don't know how many Casinos you've rented lately but it's a hefty price tag.
> #3 - The WAF uses it's funds to support the NFAA in many ways. No one, and I mean NO ONE is making a fortune off what you see at these events. Vegas included.
> 
> Vegas needs an army of people to pull off. All of the rooms, including the arena are required to be set and built in less than 2 days, same with teardown - even shorter. this year I spent almost 6hrs with another driver on forklifts unloading 3 trucks to get that show to happen. Louisville will take no less than 2.. it's monumental. it took almost 10 guys to get the carpet laid in the arena in one afternoon...wrapping your head around all that goes on will just put most people in the corner looking at shiny things and petting felt after a few mins.
> 
> Ask your Dir or Councilperson to sit down and explain it all on the financial side. It'll blow your mind.
> 
> Chuck


 Was not thinking any one was getting rich over night. Again thanks for explaining things a bit. 
Most sporting events that require a registration fee actually give incentives to register early , free t-shirt usually get the job done. This is alot of bang for a little buck , think 1000 entrants , 1000 walking billboards. Money up front is an advantage for the NFAA or WAF , not the archer. It takes longer to get $150 out of my pocket than $100 to pay an entry fee , so the long lines bit does not fly. It makes no sense to charge late fees to a starving event. Register late you might not have a spot on line or get your favorite time spot. 
As far as "renting " a casino , well there is a reason behind everything usually it involves money. Vegas is about the least economically favorable place to host anything , (other than a batchalor party).Casinos practically pay people to come thru the doors , to get a free 10,000 archers in the door , rent better be damn cheap. Pretty much any where is a better place to host this event financially speaking , rolling out a rented carpet cost a lot less in North Carolina than it does in Vegas , as do hotel rooms , food 
and hired help. 

Nothing is perfect and I am not claiming to have all the answers , just figured this is a good of place as any to air my laundry and babble out loud.


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## field14

sunburn said:


> Was not thinking any one was getting rich over night. Again thanks for explaining things a bit.
> Most sporting events that require a registration fee actually give incentives to register early , free t-shirt usually get the job done. This is alot of bang for a little buck , think 1000 entrants , 1000 walking billboards. Money up front is an advantage for the NFAA or WAF , not the archer. It takes longer to get $150 out of my pocket than $100 to pay an entry fee , so the long lines bit does not fly. It makes no sense to charge late fees to a starving event. Register late you might not have a spot on line or get your favorite time spot.
> As far as "renting " a casino , well there is a reason behind everything usually it involves money. Vegas is about the least economically favorable place to host anything , (other than a batchalor party).Casinos practically pay people to come thru the doors , to get a free 10,000 archers in the door , rent better be damn cheap. Pretty much any where is a better place to host this event financially speaking , rolling out a rented carpet cost a lot less in North Carolina than it does in Vegas , as do hotel rooms , food
> and hired help.
> 
> Nothing is perfect and I am not claiming to have all the answers , just figured this is a good of place as any to air my laundry and babble out loud.


Not much of a chance of changing the Vegas tournament to another city...The event, although the name has changed and the locations have changed within Vegas itself has been going on since the 1960's. Think it was called the "U. S. Open" back then? I don't thing the Vegas shoot is hurting for entrants. I also don't think the NFAA Indoor Nationals is either; always could be better, but certainly not hurting enough to make any big sweeping changes.
Late entry fees NEED to be charged. Unless you've actually set up and run larger tournament events and had to deal with the chaos and confusion involved with taking registrations at the door for somebody that procrastinated, you'll never really understand, and I'm not going to take up the space to explain the HUGE hassles late registration causes...thus it is IMPERATIVE to continue to charge the late fees for not registering on time! You ain't gonna get in at the last minute at the same price as somebody that didn't procrastinate and registered on time, so forget it.
I also believe you get a "Shooter's Packet" at vegas when you sign in as a pre-registrant. Who do you think "Stuffs" those bags? A gremlin? Should a late registrant get a bag of goodies? How many "extra bags" do they need to plan on making up ahead of time? Or...do they take the time, one at a time to "stuff bags" for the procrastinators? Not hardly.


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> Chuck why do you think I said the camp cook scenario,the old walk a mile in my shoes deal. Most have no freekin idea the work that goes on behind the scenes.Thats why I volunteer to call lines at our state tourney,and run our own tourneys here at home.The guys at Vegas have little time for themselves being on call practically the whole time during the day.I value you and the other volunteers that help,without you guys we are standing in the street with our bows in hand saying *** man where do we shoot? _Tom D runs Presleys like a swiis watch and he has a great tournament, Ill cringe when he calls it quits and lets someone else do it._So buck up pal you guys are appreciated. Don Ward


Don,
Actually, I have stepped back and put the load on someone else's shoulder, specifically Mark Cooper who is an employee of Presleys Outdoors. Mark did a lot of the footwork for the 2012 event, and will be doing nearly all of it for the 2013 event. I'm not fully calling it quits, but I'm not going to be the one putting out fires and making the decisions; not that I ever made "all" of those decisions anyways; that is what committees are for!
Mark did an exceptional job for 2012 and has some great ideas to help streamline things even more for 2013. MAYBE I just might get lucky and be able to finally, after 7 shoots (counting 2013) get to SHOOT in the event! That would be totally foreign territory for me to SHOOT in the Presleys Midwest Open Tournament, now wouldn't it. Silver Seniors for me, hahahaha. Right handed and all. Never know, maybe, with luck that will happen.


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## Beastmaster

Wow. I could approach this in so many different ways. 

So, here's some food for thought. 

1) Setting up the field. For tournaments like Vegas or NFAA Indoor Nationals, almost everyone shoots the same sized target. For tournaments like USA Archery Indoor Nationals or an international tournament like the Arizona Cup, you have varying target sizes at varying distances. Adding a late fee makes the life of the scorers and organizers less troublesome. Latecomers complicate the organization of the field. 

2) Awards. Add an archer in a formerly empty category and class, an award has to be rushed for order and creation. 

3) The physical back end work is nuts. I use the same software to help run Arizona FITA tournaments that the WAF uses for Vegas. To add a last minute archer requires a lot of steps just in the software to ensure your name shows up properly on the scrolling ticker board, regardless if you're first on the championship level or dead last in Cub Recurve, let alone making sure you're in the proper category/class/division and it shows you've paid your entry fee. The steps care less if you have 100 or 2000 archers... They are the same. 

4) Target faces. Got enough? Good registration timing ensures you have enough target faces. It's not like I can order more on the fly from Maple Leaf and return the excess. And holding on to inventory for a year is poor business practice too. 

5) Getting paid? Ha! To use a 'small' tournament as an example, the Arizona State Junior Olympic championship had just under 100 archers across 3 sessions. The lone scoring crew (me) that did data entry, scoring leader board via electronic means, and gathering/verifying scorecards did not get paid. Neither did the greeters, registration aides, and the bale crews. 

6) the same tournament had 5 walkins. The walkins ended up delaying the tournament start by 10 minutes each session. 

The work that goes into tournaments is nuts. No volunteers, no tournament. 

I don't coach/shoot/work/write about archery and it's tournaments to roll flush with cash. I (and others) like the sport too much to see it fall and fail. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## FV Chuck

Beastmaster said:


> Wow. I could approach this in so many different ways.
> 
> So, here's some food for thought.
> 
> 1) Setting up the field. For tournaments like Vegas or NFAA Indoor Nationals, almost everyone shoots the same sized target. For tournaments like USA Archery Indoor Nationals or an international tournament like the Arizona Cup, you have varying target sizes at varying distances. Adding a late fee makes the life of the scorers and organizers less troublesome. Latecomers complicate the organization of the field.
> 
> 2) Awards. Add an archer in a formerly empty category and class, an award has to be rushed for order and creation.
> 
> 3) The physical back end work is nuts. I use the same software to help run Arizona FITA tournaments that the WAF uses for Vegas. To add a last minute archer requires a lot of steps just in the software to ensure your name shows up properly on the scrolling ticker board, regardless if you're first on the championship level or dead last in Cub Recurve, let alone making sure you're in the proper category/class/division and it shows you've paid your entry fee. The steps care less if you have 100 or 2000 archers... They are the same.
> 
> 4) Target faces. Got enough? Good registration timing ensures you have enough target faces. It's not like I can order more on the fly from Maple Leaf and return the excess. And holding on to inventory for a year is poor business practice too.
> 
> 5) Getting paid? Ha! To use a 'small' tournament as an example, the Arizona State Junior Olympic championship had just under 100 archers across 3 sessions. The lone scoring crew (me) that did data entry, scoring leader board via electronic means, and gathering/verifying scorecards did not get paid. Neither did the greeters, registration aides, and the bale crews.
> 
> 6) the same tournament had 5 walkins. The walkins ended up delaying the tournament start by 10 minutes each session.
> 
> The work that goes into tournaments is nuts. No volunteers, no tournament.
> 
> I don't coach/shoot/work/write about archery and it's tournaments to roll flush with cash. I (and others) like the sport too much to see it fall and fail.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


Boom -
(where's my "like" button?)


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## brtesite

chuck it is a thankless job. Spent over 20 years doing NFAA things. Betcha not a 100 people ever said nice job or thanks. it is not needed to do the job, but sometimes it would be nice.


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## blueglide1

brtesite said:


> chuck it is a thankless job. Spent over 20 years doing NFAA things. Betcha not a 100 people ever said nice job or thanks. it is not needed to do the job, but sometimes it would be nice.


Thanks Mike,been doin this for 28 years and Im sure you had a lot to do with tons of the shoots I participated in.Chuck,you know how I feel,you da man. Don Ward


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## deadx

Mike, I know I have thanked you and Chuck and many of the folks who work so hard to make the NFAA tournaments a success but I want to say THANK YOU! again guys and gals.


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## AdvanTimberLou

No issue with late fees here, usually if someone is going to shoot an event, your made aware of the deadline and all the rules, some just put it off and then get upset over a late fee.

I enjoy the NFAA Louisville Nationals, to see the pros shoot up close and to talk with them and be able to toe the line with archers from all over the world is pretty awesome. 

It has to take a ton of work to get it ready and my wife and myself applaud all their hard work so we can shoot there. 20 yards is 20 yards but its so cool shooting 20 yards at the Louisville Nationals. 

Good luck to all of those shooting and thank you for all that get it set-up!


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## deadeyedickwc

mike thanks for all you have done , we do appreciate it,


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## deer_slayer1982

It was only a 30% for vegas for a late fee
and indoor nationals 60% for the late fee. I cant aford in my budget to go by myself and getting a group of 3-4 people together to drive 10 hours takes some effort. If i lived closer it wouldn't be so bad. Maybe late fees should be based on distance from the shoot?


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## FV Chuck

You guys do know you can pre-register and if everything goes to pot before the shoot you can get a refund right? You do know thats possible??

I think they (NFAA) keep a few bucks for the cost of doing the transactions because the credit card companies etc charge a fee...but it's minimal.

I mean really...you pay late fees for everything in life. EVVVVVRYthing- 

OK - 
Lets look at it this way.. 
If the term "late fees" has you all worked up, maybe we should call it a "convenience fee" for the convenience of signing up late and creating extra work for the staff. Kind of like a Room Upgrade or First Class. Instead of being looked at like someone who cant quite get the commitment put together in time or forgot, or whatever...you'd now be a preferred customer....but it's still $50

Feel better? 
! yeah


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## gcab

Late fees should be based on someones distance from the shoot location? haha I would think time would be better spent with registering on time since they give over a YEAR to register, as opposed to thinking of some equation for what distance pays what amount.. and then arguing with people that have to pay a higher fee just because they live farther away. Hopefully you meant distance as in timeframe to when the shoot begins.. but they already do that. Its 1 fee if you register up to a month ahead of time, and then another if you register within a month. I dont get why its so hard to just register on time.


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## field14

gcab said:


> Late fees should be based on someones distance from the shoot location? haha I would think time would be better spent with registering on time since they give over a YEAR to register, as opposed to thinking of some equation for what distance pays what amount.. and then arguing with people that have to pay a higher fee just because they live farther away. Hopefully you meant distance as in timeframe to when the shoot begins.. but they already do that. Its 1 fee if you register up to a month ahead of time, and then another if you register within a month. I dont get why its so hard to just register on time.


Couldn't agree with you more on this issue. You KNOW the deadline for "early" registration, and you know a YEAR ahead when that is and what it will cost you if you don't register early! Get off the dime and don't procrastinate and/or expect "special treatment"; sorry to be blunt, but...you aren't "special" like most kids are being taught to think of themselves these days! You know, the new "rules are for fools" syndrome, ha.
Same with refunds for cancellations and no shows. Many tournaments have a set date for that, and if you cancel after that date...NO REFUND. If you are a "no show" NO REFUND, so don't ask for one. There are certain circumstances where you _might_ get one...such as death in the family (proven!!), emergency hospitalization or surgery (proven), and such. However foul weather is NOT one of them, and "I was sick, had the flu, or my dog ate my car keys." hahaha:embara::embara: 

You also wouldn't believe the huge hassle it is to administer cancellations and the amount of time it takes to get things realigned and people juggled around at the last minute!!!
No shows are just as bad what with having to jockey people around on a bale so that there are at least THREE shooters on a bale (by rule you have to have this or you have the people on the adjacent bale score the bale with only two on it; a real hassle cuz now scoring is for SIX people instead of 4.


field14 (Tom D.)


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## Arcus

FV Chuck said:


> If the term "late fees" has you all worked up, maybe we should call it a "convenience fee" for the convenience of signing up late and creating extra work for the staff. Kind of like a Room Upgrade or First Class. Instead of being looked at like someone who cant quite get the commitment put together in time or forgot, or whatever...you'd now be a preferred customer....but it's still $50


Since you're trying the psychology angle, how about this: The regular fee is $135, but you get a $50 discount if you register early.


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## FV Chuck

arcus said:


> since you're trying the psychology angle, how about this: The regular fee is $135, but you get a $50 discount if you register early.


i love it!


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## deer_slayer1982

How about this angle i can shoot small shoots for $10 or $15 and get pay back.


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## gcab

Then be a back yard archer and dont shoot with the best of the best. If thats what you want to do then obviously you dont want to work at being national champion, so thats fine. if a late fee is what is holding you back from actually competing in a national event, then you woudlnt be ready to win anyways.... Or again.. can just register when you are supposed to since you have over a year to do so.


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## Rock6ed3

If the event hasn't started yet why are you late? People sign up at the event every year. Plan for it. If you want to drive people away charge a late fee. If you don't want people signing up at the event close registration early. No late fees.


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## brtesite

It is a discount for registering early


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## Hawk Eye

People who don't want a late fee obviously have never run a shoot. I've run them many times & it is so frustrating to have 15 or more people show up right before we start who have to be registered. Sending in your registration info ahead of time helps the event run more smoothly. Please consider doing this in future (or volunteer your time at the registration desk).


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## cheaplaughs

It must suck to be forced to shoot these events. I'm glad I have a choice and shoot them for fun.


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## r49740

The only thing that stinks about the late registration stuff is that buddies that registerd a few weeks ago for the 11 o'clock line are now on the 7 am line since there are lanes being "held" just in case more pros decide to register. Shouldn't those that register on time actually get their request instead of holding things for those that may or may not register? So now they find out when they check in what line they shoot. Thats disappointing.


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## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> The only thing that stinks about the late registration stuff is that buddies that registerd a few weeks ago for the 11 o'clock line are now on the 7 am line since there are lanes being "held" just in case more pros decide to register. Shouldn't those that register on time actually get their request instead of holding things for those that may or may not register? So now they find out when they check in what line they shoot. Thats disappointing.


I find that incredibly difficult to believe. Someone would have to prove that one to me.


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## FiFi

actually Chuck my husband got a 11 am confirmation same as me, I shoot in the ladies Pro so time is pre set but his definatly got changed to 7am on the registered archers list, still have the email too


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## FV Chuck

FiFi said:


> actually Chuck my husband got a 11 am confirmation same as me, I shoot in the ladies Pro so time is pre set but his definatly got changed to 7am on the registered archers list, still have the email too


Hmmm I wonder why?... that seems odd unles they had to move a whole style to keep them together or something?.. did you call and ask?


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## BearArcher1980

Arcus said:


> Since you're trying the psychology angle, how about this: The regular fee is $135, but you get a $50 discount if you register early.


Awesome!!! Made me chuckle


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## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Hmmm I wonder why?... that seems odd unles they had to move a whole style to keep them together or something?.. did you call and ask?


Hey Chuck. My buddies did call and ask. The response was that they were holding lines for Pros that didnt register in case they do register. So my buddies got pushed to 7 am, even though they registered well before cutoff, got put on a "list" in case some of the pros dont register, then they can get put back to 11 am. I get the late fee for registering late.. that should definitely stay. But even lowly am's shouldn't get punished for registering on time if pros register late.


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## USNarcher

Pro's need their beauty sleep, everyone knows that.  I can believe this to be true and it is wrong. Pros should get the 7 am line if they register late and that's all that is available. It will all get straightened out on Sunday.


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## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> Hey Chuck. My buddies did call and ask. The response was that they were holding lines for Pros that didnt register in case they do register. So my buddies got pushed to 7 am, even though they registered well before cutoff, got put on a "list" in case some of the pros dont register, then they can get put back to 11 am. I get the late fee for registering late.. that should definitely stay. But even lowly am's shouldn't get punished for registering on time if pros register late.


Can you tell me please who said that?


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## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Can you tell me please who said that?


Ill send you a pm


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## montigre

deer_slayer1982 said:


> How about this angle i can shoot small shoots for $10 or $15 and get pay back.


Many are into the sport for the enjoyment of it and not the couple of $$ that might be garnered along the way...So how about this--the opportunity to shoot along side some of the world's best archers, have the time of your life, meet new friends, revisit old friends-----priceless....


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## Unclegus

montigre said:


> Many are into the sport for the enjoyment of it and not the couple of $$ that might be garnered along the way...So how about this--the opportunity to shoot along side some of the world's best archers, have the time of your life, meet new friends, revisit old friends-----priceless....


Tell them, Gail. If you enjoy being a big fish in a small pond, then go for it. If you love archery, this is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.


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## FiFi

FV Chuck said:


> Hmmm I wonder why?... that seems odd unles they had to move a whole style to keep them together or something?.. did you call and ask?


just got off the phone with the NFAA office, and she did say they hold spaces open for walk in Pros even if they are late registering, as well the email my husband got back says his prefered line was 11am, so the butt assignments are done later, we thought that he had been confirmed at 11am and we set our sheduale accordingly, atleast we can still go out for dinner, trying to go out after the 330 line would have been hell


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## r49740

I'm all for the late fee if it is to actually encourage people to register early to have the tasks of lane assigments completed, but since that isn't done, then whats the point? Why do people who follow the dates given and get in registrations on time, which helps with setup, and as stated above make travel plans.. only to get bumped because someone didn't register on time, but that late registration gets priority since they pay an extra $85 a year to shoot? That doesn't make any sense.


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## Unclegus

r49740 said:


> I'm all for the late fee if it is to actually encourage people to register early to have the tasks of lane assigments completed, but since that isn't done, then whats the point? Why do people who follow the dates given and get in registrations on time, which helps with setup, and as stated above make travel plans.. only to get bumped because someone didn't register on time, but that late registration gets priority since they pay an extra $85 a year to shoot? That doesn't make any sense.


Sounds like a good topic for an agenda item for next year.


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## r49740

Unclegus said:


> Sounds like a good topic for an agenda item for next year.


Actually to me sounds like a good change that the NFAA can just make now.. those that requested a time to shoot that still has or had open bales should get the requested time, and those that haven't registered yet just gets whatever is left over. Doesn't seem like it could be any easier than that.


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## r49740

Were you able to find anything out Chuck?


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## montigre

r49740 said:


> Actually to me sounds like a good change that the NFAA can just make now.. those that requested a time to shoot that still has or had open bales should get the requested time, and those that haven't registered yet just gets whatever is left over. Doesn't seem like it could be any easier than that.


I have to agree. The shoots I have attended have always been, at least on face value, first registered, first served. Since holding line times for non-registered shooters is not a written part of the NFAA By Laws, there should be no need for it to have to wait for an agenda item to be placed for the action to be discontinued.


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## Unclegus

It doesn't matter even if it were in black and white. It's going to happen. After glancing through the list of registered shooters, I see that Levi, Jesse, Chance, Cuz, and Hammer are not on the list. I can just see them showing up and shooting at seven with us riff raff.


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## brtesite

Unclegus said:


> It doesn't matter even if it were in black and white. It's going to happen. After glancing through the list of registered shooters, I see that Levi, Jesse, Chance, Cuz, and Hammer are not on the list. I can just see them showing up and shooting at seven with us riff raff.


I don,t believe that has happened in the past. Don,t know where that edict came from


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## "Supertec"

Late fee's who really cares ... you buy arrows to shoot deer and they end up ruined in the ground at $20 a pop minimum but you don't cry about those ... you buy more archery stuff you probably have as spares but don't mind spending the extra money there. Then you get in your cars and drive to the shoot and complain about gas the whole way there while your doing 80 to 85 mph.

Just stop working about nickles and dimes and have a good time that's what its all about. You gonna beat Reo wilde ... darren davis ... Jamie van atta ect ect .. nope didnt think so but if you can great ill be watching and cheering for ya. 

But for gods sake stop complaining about spending $50 extra bucks because "YOU" couldn't commit to the shoot by the dead line. Here's an idea stay home and complain that its not on television for you to watch either. Show up shoot thank the people that put it on ... help a person in need make a new friend and look forward to next year.

Shooter out !!!


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## Hoyt_em

FV Chuck said:


> I find that incredibly difficult to believe. Someone would have to prove that one to me.


I was told by Jessica, yesterday (03/12/13) that the NFAA specifically caters to the Pro class, and as they come in registering late, those that preregistered would be bumped.

I don't recall any specific words of holding spots, but it was VERY clear the Pro classes have precedence/priority if, and when they register. 

She said it was an absolute nightmare for scheduling. Because as the bumping of the John Doe goes on, eventually she/they are having to make two line time shifts to accommodate. 

IE: pro archer comes in, takes an 11:00 spot; archer number one gets pushed to 7:00 am line that is full, which pushes archer number three to the 3:30 pm line.

Being bumped is not what we wanted(more sonny wife than I...lol), but it would have been nice to know...in advance. I don't know that we would have caught that, unless the entire first day schedule was posted Friday evening. 

In our case we got lucky, that a friend noticed we were on the crack of dawn line, and knew we had registered to shoot the 11:00 am line. Had he not told me, we wouldn't have known till we were 4 hours late. 








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## Unclegus

brtesite said:


> I don,t believe that has happened in the past. Don,t know where that edict came from


So you're telling me if Jesse or Reo would show up at the last minute on Friday they're going to tell him to go home? Even if it was on paper????? I was born at night, but not last nite. I'm don't feel good enough today to stir anything up and then sit back and laugh I'll see you Friday, Lord Willing.


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## OT3D

I am not an NFAA professional but I do, however, review this forum on occasion. Since I see many others posting who are not NFAA professionals I assume anyone can contribute their opinion or comment.

I am an NFAA member. I do not get to shoot many of our state shoots and none of the national shoots due to various circumstances. Also, I am not really interested in shooting indoor "spots" but do so just to keep my form somewhat up to snuff. My interest is more in field and 3D. Since there's little field activity in my state I seldom get to shoot that. 

I do shoot 3D, mostly following the ASA pro am tour. I mention this in relation to this discussion because it is my experience that there are many walk up registrations on the day of the pro am. As far as I know there is no penalty for registering on site. I have noticed some rather long lines at these late registrations and it always seems that the ladies in registration are able to efficiently and effectively get everyone registered prior to the start. I have never known a start to be delayed due to a late registration.

I suspect that if ASA were to institute a late registration fee it would have a noticeable effect on the total number of shooters.

I have no general idea as to the total number of shooters at the indoor nationals, but I do know that ASA had over 1,450 shooters this past weekend in Georgia. Perhaps if NFAA reviewed their registration system in light of what ASA does in their registration process many of the concerns and problems could be addressed to the satisfaction of all.

I would also note that the IBO allows for walk up registrations with little problem. However, since they do not employ a shotgun start the comparison is hardly fair.


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## montigre

OT3D said:


> I am not really interested in shooting indoor "spots" but do so just to keep my form somewhat up to snuff. My interest is more in field and 3D. Since there's little field activity in my state I seldom get to shoot that. I do shoot 3D, mostly following the ASA pro am tour. I mention this in relation to this discussion because it is my experience that there are many walk up registrations on the day of the pro am.


Although not an easy task by any means, it is easier to accommodate last minute registrants at an outdoor venue than at a larger indoor event. Also, much easier to do at a local shoot than a regional or national shoot. I've personally never seen late registrations at anything above a state shoot allowed, but I'm still a little damp behind the ears and have not seen everything....


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## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Can you tell me please who said that?


Sent you a couple pm's, and others have stated the same thing along with who they talked to. Any comments to add? Any explanation or thoughts as to why those that were prepared and registered on time get bumped after they make their travel arrangements, etc for the "pros" that should be most prepared, but don't get done with their registrations like the rest of us?


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## carlosii

montigre said:


> Although not an easy task by any means, it is easier to accommodate last minute registrants at an outdoor venue than at a larger indoor event. Also, much easier to do at a local shoot than a regional or national shoot. I've personally never seen late registrations at anything above a state shoot allowed, but I'm still a little damp behind the ears and have not seen everything....


i attended the ASA shoot at Ft. Bragg last weekend. 1450+ shooters with lots of walk ups. three ladies in the ASA trailer handled it all.


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## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> Sent you a couple pm's, and others have stated the same thing along with who they talked to. Any comments to add? Any explanation or thoughts as to why those that were prepared and registered on time get bumped after they make their travel arrangements, etc for the "pros" that should be most prepared, but don't get done with their registrations like the rest of us?


I'm looking into it... dont take my lack of comments right now as inaction. It just takes a bit to get all the answers. People are travelling to the shoot and such right now.

Trust when I say I am absolutely horrified by that comment from Hoyt Em earlier....I feel gutted by it.

So again, before I say anything..I'd like to chat with Natalie and her team to find out how the registration is done. I mean I'm pretty sure I have a good idea but I dont want to get it wrong and spread bad info.

Thanks all - 

Chuck


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## Hoyt_em

FVC...my comments weren't designed to be vengeful, my apologies if the keyboard cam across that way. 

To be honest, I'm not sure how this has anything to do with your position, other than you trying encouraging prompt and reliable registration by those you represent.






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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> I'm looking into it... dont take my lack of comments right now as inaction. It just takes a bit to get all the answers. People are travelling to the shoot and such right now.
> 
> Trust when I say I am absolutely horrified by that comment from Hoyt Em earlier....I feel gutted by it.
> 
> So again, before I say anything..I'd like to chat with Natalie and her team to find out how the registration is done. I mean I'm pretty sure I have a good idea but I dont want to get it wrong and spread bad info.
> 
> Thanks all -
> 
> Chuck


I can understand your sentiments, Chuck! I'm a bit miffed by the thing about "NFAA is "catering to the Pros"...." myself! It is something that can really backfire if this is indeed the case! Talk about a turn-off for the MAJORITY of the shooters that attend these events! Just not something a "joe" wants to hear or have happen.
Registration is registration, and first come-first served should apply to everyone regardless of stature, name, rankings, or whatever. That being said, if it is announced that say, 30 slots on this line are reserved for PROS and if not filled by such and such a date, those slots will be given to registrants on a first come, first served basis", then everyone knows this up front. 
However, "bumping" people that registered early to give priority to people that salted the dog and figure they'll just waltz in at the last moment and get a priority? Not right.
I HOPE this isn't the entire story.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

Hoyt_em said:


> FVC...my comments weren't designed to be vengeful, my apologies if the keyboard cam across that way.
> 
> To be honest, I'm not sure how this has anything to do with your position, other than you trying encouraging prompt and reliable registration by those you represent.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Noooo. I know they weren't ...I'm not angry at you at all. we are cool.. 

It just hurts because that's the last thing in the world I/we pros want people to think. Without you there is no us.


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## r49740

field14 said:


> I can understand your sentiments, Chuck! I'm a bit miffed by the thing about "NFAA is "catering to the Pros"...." myself! It is something that can really backfire if this is indeed the case! Talk about a turn-off for the MAJORITY of the shooters that attend these events! Just not something a "joe" wants to hear or have happen.
> Registration is registration, and first come-first served should apply to everyone regardless of stature, name, rankings, or whatever. That being said, if it is announced that say, 30 slots on this line are reserved for PROS and if not filled by such and such a date, those slots will be given to registrants on a first come, first served basis", then everyone knows this up front.
> However, "bumping" people that registered early to give priority to people that salted the dog and figure they'll just waltz in at the last moment and get a priority? Not right.
> I HOPE this isn't the entire story.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


This is my thought and point as well. For two buddies, they were posted at 11, then got changed to 7 am. When they called, they were told what was stated above.. that as pro's register, they will move others and will keep more bails for unregister pros. Shouldn't be that way.. not when there is a financial incentive to register early(which also means making travel plans, hotel stay, etc), and certainly not when there was about 1,200 shooters last year and what appears to be about comprised of only about 120 pro shooters(just a rough guess). Cater to the 10% in spite of the 90% just doesn't make sense, when again, there is incentive to register early and have plans made. Poor decision on the NFAA's part. Disappointing.


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## ccwilder3

hoyt_em said:


> i was told by jessica, yesterday (03/12/13) that the nfaa specifically caters to the pro class, and as they come in registering late, those that preregistered would be bumped.
> 
> I don't recall any specific words of holding spots, but it was very clear the pro classes have precedence/priority if, and when they register.
> 
> She said it was an absolute nightmare for scheduling. Because as the bumping of the john doe goes on, eventually she/they are having to make two line time shifts to accommodate.
> 
> Ie: Pro archer comes in, takes an 11:00 spot; archer number one gets pushed to 7:00 am line that is full, which pushes archer number three to the 3:30 pm line.
> 
> Being bumped is not what we wanted(more sonny wife than i...lol), but it would have been nice to know...in advance. I don't know that we would have caught that, unless the entire first day schedule was posted friday evening.
> 
> In our case we got lucky, that a friend noticed we were on the crack of dawn line, and knew we had registered to shoot the 11:00 am line. Had he not told me, we wouldn't have known till we were 4 hours late.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iphone using tapatalk


wow!


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## deer_slayer1982

When do i get my late fee for the pro am starting starting late.


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## Hoyt_em

I'm pretty sure coordinating 300 shooters, teams, bales and the like, on a limited time is a real PITA...




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## speciii

Maybe , nfaa needs to look at ASAbusiness model. They don't charge a late few and there is not any problem at.the.trailer to register. Their shoots keep growing at 5% a each and every national event


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## deer_slayer1982

My time has value also.


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## carlosii

Hoyt_em said:


> I'm pretty sure coordinating 300 shooters, teams, bales and the like, on a limited time is a real PITA...
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


is 300 the approximate number who shoot Louisville?


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## Pete53

gentlemen really $50.00 is nothing anymore, can you even fill a full sized vehicle for that ? how much is your room ? meals when you eat there ? those volunteers get nothing and we should be all gateful and thank them alot! so from myself a thank you people for volunteering ,it takes special people to help out and donate their time and energy.thank you,Pete53


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## field14

carlosii said:


> is 300 the approximate number who shoot Louisville?


No! 300 is not even close...more like 1500...so you can well imagine what a royal pain and how difficult it is to try to accommodate "Tardies" at the door...and then try to get the scorecards re-set, lane assignments cross-checked with the "late registrants" put in, and still get the lines started and finished ON TIME!!! The "no shows" are bad enough to try to handle, because technically, they don't become a "no-show" until the line is finished! However, after the 2nd practice end, if there are only two on a bale, then the line judges have to jockey people around a bit to ensure that there are no less than 3 persons on a bale...and that is yet another pain in the butt.
Imagine if there is an error made on a late registrant...and there are now 5 or even 6 shooters assigned to the same bale...and the line is ready to start...and the line is already FULL????
Late registrants should be getting the scrapings off the pot, NOT preference and the early registrants getting bumped! 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## ohioarcher300

It was about 3 years ago the NFAA changed it so that all the pros shoot together at 11 am Sat. I wonder what the reason was for this


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## Hoyt_em

carlosii said:


> is 300 the approximate number who shoot Louisville?


The 300 number is entrants into the pro-am.
1200-1500 shooters for the whole gammit...

There were still people just getting into town, at the start of the pro-am. Those guys and gals were prolly great-full they got a chance to shoot. 





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## carlosii

Hoyt_em said:


> The 300 number is entrants into the pro-am.
> 1200-1500 shooters for the whole gammit...
> 
> There were still people just getting into town, at the start of the pro-am. Those guys and gals were prolly great-full they got a chance to shoot.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


are you referring to the NFAA indoor nationals or the ASA pro am?


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## FishAlaska

No amatuers in the sport....no pros, Chuck knows that. The Pro class can not stand on its own. You wont see a Pro venue without the mass of all the rest of the classes.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## rock monkey

carlosii said:


> are you referring to the NFAA indoor nationals or the ASA pro am?



just a few more than 300........ http://nfaaindoornational.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/adultresults.pdf

the indoor nats has a pro-am shoot fridays. that's where the 300 shooters came from.


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## J Whittington

Pete53 said:


> gentlemen really $50.00 is nothing anymore, can you even fill a full sized vehicle for that ? how much is your room ? meals when you eat there ? those volunteers get nothing and we should be all gateful and thank them alot! so from myself a thank you people for volunteering ,it takes special people to help out and donate their time and energy.thank you,Pete53


I disagree, especially if additional family members are involved. But the money is not the only issue, its just the point of feeling unwelcome. Amatuer classes have 0 pay-outs. Charging an additional 50 is totally obsured and greedyh, If this practice is ok with you, then support them, its your choice.


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## rock monkey

J Whittington said:


> I disagree, especially if additional family members are involved. But the money is not the only issue, its just the point of feeling unwelcome. *Amatuer classes have 0 pay-outs.* Charging an additional 50 is totally obsured and greedyh, If this practice is ok with you, then support them, its your choice.




http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur
amateur

[am-uh-choor, -cher, -ter, am-uh-tur] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional.
2.
an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.
3.
a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity: Hunting lions is not for amateurs.
4.
a person who admires something; devotee; fan: an amateur of the cinema.


poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on their's


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## J Whittington

thats right moneky brains..... I planned on staying home because I dont need them!


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## rock monkey

J Whittington said:


> thats right moneky brains..... I planned on staying home because I dont need them!


wow, i'm just stunned. my vocabulary lacks such adjectives to reply. i have been humbled by your greatness.


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## J Whittington

Rock, I aplologize. My statement was a little harsh and after reading it, I reget posting it. However, my opinion on the late fee has not changed. 50 bucks is steep. Regardless of venue, all archers need to stick together and support each other. A charge of $50 as a late fee to shoot paper, with no payouts is obsured. Amatuers have been winning $ at ASA since its inception. Not everyone that competes at an ASA shoots all the events. Many are 1st timers that want to give it a try when an event is close enouh to travel to. 

I considered attending the indoor nationals this year, but after learing of a 50 late fee, I quickly changed my mind. IMHO its greedy. Lancaster, ASA, and not even the IBO charge a late fee. They all (especially ASA) want to make you feel welcome. The act of charging a $ 50 late fee is not a gesture that should be used to make people feel welcome


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## keyman

J Whittington said:


> Rock, I aplologize. My statement was a little harsh and after reading it, I reget posting it. However, my opinion on the late fee has not changed. 50 bucks is steep. Regardless of venue, all archers need to stick together and support each other. A charge of $50 as a late fee to shoot paper, with no payouts is obsured. Amatuers have been winning $ at ASA since its inception. Not everyone that competes at an ASA shoots all the events. Many are 1st timers that want to give it a try when an event is close enouh to travel to.
> 
> I considered attending the indoor nationals this year, but after learing of a 50 late fee, I quickly changed my mind. IMHO its greedy. Lancaster, ASA, and not even the IBO charge a late fee. They all (especially ASA) want to make you feel welcome. The act of charging a $ 50 late fee is not a gesture that should be used to make people feel welcome


I agree! I don't agree with a late fee for any event while we are trying to encourage more people to attend but if absolutely necessary, it doesn't have to be $50 to poke a few pieces of paper. I will not attend a shoot when I have to pay the late fees. I could see it if they did not have enough space or targets to shoot but that is not the case.


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## field14

keyman said:


> I agree! I don't agree with a late fee for any event while we are trying to encourage more people to attend but if absolutely necessary, it doesn't have to be $50 to poke a few pieces of paper. I will not attend a shoot when I have to pay the late fees. I could see it if they did not have enough space or targets to shoot but that is not the case.


You are missing the big point here. The establishment of a pre-registration deadline and the subsequent "late fee" charges for failing to register prior to that deadline were clearly and unequivocably advertised a full YEAR in advance, along with several announcements over the course of a YEAR about that same issue.
Everyone had more than ample time to pre-register and avoid a late registration fee! In addition, I've attended MANY a State, Sectional, and even some local shoots where a LATE REGISTRATION fee is charged; all of which were announced in writing well in advance.
It isn't the fault of the host that people procrastinate and want to slip in for the same fees that people that are wise enough to plan in ADVANCE and COMPLY with the pre-registration deadline.
Myself, I do NOT feel sorry for anyone that had to pay the late fee, nor do I think that a huge number of people are "shying away" in droves because of a "late registration fee". This is just another lame excuse for people to use of why they don't/won't attend.
If they really want to attend, they'll register in advance to get the line time they want (at least in most cases). If they are late and WANT to attend (and not use a lame excuse for their tardiness), they'll pay the late fee, too.
There is no reason for the host to "waive" the late fee; especially when it is always announced well in advance.
Of course, there are those that show up "late" in hopes they'll get a "prime-time line time" too; but more often than not, they don't get their way on that either.
I won't get into "amateurs" shooting for MONEY...this issue will NOT happen in the NFAA Indoor Nationals, or the NFAA Outdoor Nationals. You want to shoot for MONEY in those events, then you MUST be a card carrying Professional Archer, either NFAA, ASA, or IBO or you won't play the "money game." Rightfully so, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## MMBowhtr

So we get a few people complain about late fees when they have a YEAR to plan for it....sorry but just stay home then, those of us that actually plan and pre register don't need to listen to you whine and mown about how you can't get your crap together


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## deer_slayer1982

Where's national's next year and where do i register?


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## FV Chuck

deer_slayer1982 said:


> Where's national's next year and where do i register?


Same time, same place... mail it to the office now and I'm sure you'll be all set.


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## FV Chuck

J Whittington said:


> The act of charging a $ 50 late fee is not a gesture that should be used to make people feel welcome


It's not supposed to be used as a profit source or to make people feel unwelcome. Its purely designed to be a motivational tool so people dont wait until the last second and create a scheduling nightmare for the registration crew.
It's really not what you think or what your painting it to be.

I PERSONALLY had to experience it this weekend with a record turnout for the Pro-am...despite repeated requests for pre-registration to get it all set up I got about 50 names in advance. We got more than 200 on site in 1/2 a day...see the burden it puts on the crew? If I had those names in advance I would have gotten it started on time and everyone would have been thrilled.... the LAST thing int he WORLD I want is to turn away shooters or not have a big fun Pro-Am, so ...where or how do we manage it?
It worked out, everyone enjoyed it....HUGE crowd for the night and it was really cool...but the more notice we have to plan the better it all goes.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

First this was a very well run tourny.. kudos to organizers... I drove 16 hours to get there and 20 back as snowing .....I run a charity tournament yearly and know the effort that goes into a well run tournament.. I was impressed that awards where handed out a few hours after completion of shooting .. Also judges where diligent and effective on the line..As per late fee this was my first time there and I paid well in advance and I had to track head office down and become a member and all the other things to be done.. with the technology of today most of this is a breeze...Me I still use the phone ...will be back next time and guys this late fee should be called an inconvenience fee for those causing more work at the last minuet...and to be honest if you do decide to go at a late date then this a cost of the trip...


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## carlosii

do they offer an "early bird" discount? maybe look at a discount for very early registration, then a normal registration fee, then a late registration fee. the "early bird" might help ease some of the overall burden on the staff as well as giving members a little extra. just saying...


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## AdvanTimberLou

All I know is the wife and I had fun, granted we never came home with silver bowls but that will keep us going back! 

Great time in Louisville, did have some issues with finding a place to eat, some places simply ran out of food if you can believe that and some food courts closed way too early. Also, we had an adventure of almost getting lost on the Louie Link, all in all, I was with my best friend my wife and we enjoyed our weekend there. How can you complain when your with 1400 other people shooting bows? :wink:

Can't wait till next year, we will be signing up well in advance! :thumb:


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## field14

carlosii said:


> do they offer an "early bird" discount? maybe look at a discount for very early registration, then a normal registration fee, then a late registration fee. the "early bird" might help ease some of the overall burden on the staff as well as giving members a little extra. just saying...


Yes, they do...it is called "pre-registration"(or registering BEFORE the deadline when late fees take effect!)...then you don't have to pay the "late registration fee."
It isn't the "early", or "within the time frame" registrations that cause the nightmares! It is those last minute people that set things behind, help to create havoc, induce errors or potential quandries. Having to deal with the last minute crap is a HUGE hassle for the tournament committee/staff!
Bad enough to deal with the no-shows, but that is more of a hassle for the line judges and staff running that shooting line!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## tmorelli

field14 said:


> You are missing the big point here. The establishment of a pre-registration deadline and the subsequent "late fee" charges for failing to register prior to that deadline were clearly and unequivocably advertised a full YEAR in advance, along with several announcements over the course of a YEAR about that same issue.
> Everyone had more than ample time to pre-register and avoid a late registration fee! In addition, I've attended MANY a State, Sectional, and even some local shoots where a LATE REGISTRATION fee is charged; all of which were announced in writing well in advance.
> It isn't the fault of the host that people procrastinate and want to slip in for the same fees that people that are wise enough to plan in ADVANCE and COMPLY with the pre-registration deadline.
> Myself, I do NOT feel sorry for anyone that had to pay the late fee, nor do I think that a huge number of people are "shying away" in droves because of a "late registration fee". This is just another lame excuse for people to use of why they don't/won't attend.
> If they really want to attend, they'll register in advance to get the line time they want (at least in most cases). If they are late and WANT to attend (and not use a lame excuse for their tardiness), they'll pay the late fee, too.
> There is no reason for the host to "waive" the late fee; especially when it is always announced well in advance.
> Of course, there are those that show up "late" in hopes they'll get a "prime-time line time" too; but more often than not, they don't get their way on that either.
> I won't get into "amateurs" shooting for MONEY...this issue will NOT happen in the NFAA Indoor Nationals, or the NFAA Outdoor Nationals. You want to shoot for MONEY in those events, then you MUST be a card carrying Professional Archer, either NFAA, ASA, or IBO or you won't play the "money game." Rightfully so, too.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


There it is again..... the elitist attitude that represents the NFAA and its slow but imminent death.


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## blueglide1

FV Chuck said:


> It's not supposed to be used as a profit source or to make people feel unwelcome. Its purely designed to be a motivational tool so people dont wait until the last second and create a scheduling nightmare for the registration crew.
> It's really not what you think or what your painting it to be.
> 
> I PERSONALLY had to experience it this weekend with a record turnout for the Pro-am...despite repeated requests for pre-registration to get it all set up I got about 50 names in advance. We got more than 200 on site in 1/2 a day...see the burden it puts on the crew? If I had those names in advance I would have gotten it started on time and everyone would have been thrilled.... the LAST thing int he WORLD I want is to turn away shooters or not have a big fun Pro-Am, so ...where or how do we manage it?
> It worked out, everyone enjoyed it....HUGE crowd for the night and it was really cool...but the more notice we have to plan the better it all goes.


I will have to admit that I am guilty of this too. I registered on site for the Pro Am. I didnt think I would be able to make it on time travelling to the event that day. We fortunatly got there in time and got in the Pro Am. I figured they needed myself"as a Pro" to help out the amatuers fill bales.I would have gladly paid a late fee to enter because it was my choice not to enter early.I would have not been upset at all. Don Ward


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## J Whittington

TM, You may be making a valid point!




tmorelli said:


> There it is again..... the elitist attitude that represents the NFAA and its slow but imminent death.


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## Brad HT

tmorelli said:


> There it is again..... the elitist attitude that represents the NFAA and its slow but imminent death.


I am shocked that this continues to be an issue.. If you cancel on the dentist without notice, they will charge you for their inconvenience. In the very same vane, if you choose to register late, you will be charged a late fee. This shouldnt be a suprise... Its been that way for years! Chuck even said that the ProAm event started 45 some minutes late, because of all the late registrants... Take that times 10 and thats what would happen regularly with the actual tournament.

This is not even close an 'elite-ist' attitude... its just a response to people not owning up to the responsibility registering within the WHOLE YEAR you have to do so... and thier complaining about being punished for it...

this type of mis-informed attitude is just sad...
B~


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## tmorelli

Brad HT said:


> This is not even close an 'elite-ist' attitude... its just a response to people not owning up to the responsibility registering within the WHOLE YEAR you have to do so... and thier complaining about being punished for it...
> 
> this type of mis-informed attitude is just sad...
> B~


You missed my point and you probably will again. 

It's not so much that i have an issue with a late fee as the timeframe the window expires in advance. Why should an event start late if a shooter registers 48 hours in advance? 72 hours?.... I've never seen ASA start late with registration active up to the hour before shooting starts. Why does the NFAA need weeks? 


The elitist attitude is buried in the assumptions that everyone who might want to compete is prepared long in advance.... or has a job that can guarantee the time off..... or finances that can safely bare the burden.... or yada-yada-yada. The elitist attitude is in the non-apologetic stance for those who can't pre-commit and assumes no cause is valid or worthy.

Then furthermore.... the elitist attitude is in the "money only for card carrying pros" stance. Can amateur golfers compete for money? Bowlers? And....the entry fees are reta**ed with no paybacks.... to punch paper hung on a bale.

The elitist attitude is captured again in your viewpoint that the NFAA has the right, duty or responsibility to "punish" late registrants. 



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## Arcus

tmorelli said:


> the entry fees are reta**ed with no paybacks


Having friends who are mentally handicapped, this response of yours causes me to have no respect for your opinion.


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## Brad HT

tmorelli said:


> You missed my point and you probably will again.
> 
> It's not so much that i have an issue with a late fee as the timeframe the window expires in advance. Why should an event start late if a shooter registers 48 hours in advance? 72 hours?.... I've never seen ASA start late with registration active up to the hour before shooting starts. Why does the NFAA need weeks?
> 
> Fair enough... I get what your saying.... but my guess is because the NFAA dosent have the staffing like some other organizations do _compared _to the membership size. I couldnt imagine trying to coordinate all those line times that would come in within 48 hours of the tournament starting... that would be a bit too much.
> 
> 
> The elitist attitude is buried in the assumptions that everyone who might want to compete is prepared long in advance.... or has a job that can guarantee the time off..... or finances that can safely bare the burden.... or yada-yada-yada. The elitist attitude is in the non-apologetic stance for those who can't pre-commit and assumes no cause is valid or worthy.
> 
> I get it.. Im not organized either, nor do I know what tourneys I am going to next year. Maybe not even untill weeks before. And if I am late, I know ahead of time that I will have to pay the extra fee.... Its not like its a suprise for me. I am sorry that people cant precommit... but does that mean the tourney has to be put on hold just for me to decide? I would hope not...
> 
> Then furthermore.... the elitist attitude is in the "money only for card carrying pros" stance. Can amateur golfers compete for money? Bowlers? And....the entry fees are reta**ed with no paybacks.... to punch paper hung on a bale.
> 
> If you dont like it... dont go. Simple as that. On the other side of the coin... more and more tournments around the country are going to 'Championship' and 'Trophy' brackets wherer anyone can pay the fee to shoot for the money in the Championship bracket. Do that then... The NFAA has seen record increases this year, and the improvements they are making are helping... if evidenced just by those numbers alone.
> 
> The elitist attitude is captured again in your viewpoint that the NFAA has the right, duty or responsibility to "punish" late registrants.
> 
> Its not a 'duty' or 'responisbility' to punish.... Its a rule clearly written. I still stand by my previous statement that if you cancel on the dentist, they will charge you a fee... does that make the dentist (lawyer, doctor, etc) all elitist? I dont think so...
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Brad~


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## tmorelli

Arcus said:


> Having friends who are mentally handicapped, this response of yours causes me to have no respect for your opinion.


It was an insensitive choice of words on my behalf. 

My apologies. 


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## Brad HT

Arcus said:


> Having friends who are mentally handicapped, this response of yours causes me to have no respect for your opinion.


I caught this too... I have to agree.

B~


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## field14

No elitist attitude...the "Attitude" comes from those today that are always wanting to "pass the buck" for their inability to shoulder responsibility, their unwillingness to be held accountable for their actions, and their tendencies to pass the blame onto everyone or anything but themselves!

It is YOUR fault when you didn't register early;especially when given a year to do so. 

As far as shooting for money if you are not a card carrying pro? That too, in the NFAA is clearly defined for any Sanctioned Sectional or National event of the NFAA. Wanna go for the money? Then ante up and pay your Pro Dues; otherwise, you shoot for awards. Well defined IN in the rules, and also in advance.

Today's society has millions of free-loaders that are getting something for nothing; to the point it has bankrupted a lot of "things", including Local, State, and even Federal agencies.

I seriously doubt that "hordes of shooters" will be flocking to the tournament if there weren't "late fees". That little "game" has been played for years by "shooters" that bemoan the NFAA about their rules or procedures and say, "if you change this, then a whole bunch more people will attend." The changes are made and NO INCREASE in attendance, in spite of those supposedly "great changes" that will have people pounding on the doors and flocking to get in. Yeah, Right. Uh-huh. Tell me another story. Same song and dance, same ending result, but from a "new wave" of people is all.

Those of you whining about late fees weren't gonna show up anyways, and it isn't right for YOU to procrastinate and get into the event for the same fees as those that did it RIGHT and registered within the boundaries of the registration time frames defined a full year in advance. You knew it was coming...and still didn't do it right. Nobody pulled any surprises on you, but you are willing to pull surprises, and then want the association to look the other way on late fees, too.

Enough of this stuff. Late fees are there. Register on time, or suffer the consequences, as in late fees. You'll use any excuse anyways. If they waived the late fee, you'd gripe because they wouldn't put you on your preferred line time, too! Dah. OR...you'd gripe because you and your friend didn't end up on the same bale together. Or you'd gripe because you got placed on a top target to start when you wanted on the bottom target to start. Or you have to shoot next to a lefty and don't like to do that.

Always something..except just admitting you weren't coming anyways, late fee or no late fee.


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## FV Chuck

tmorelli said:


> There it is again..... the elitist attitude that represents the NFAA and its slow but imminent death.


Interesting then how Vegas this year was the biggest ever...as was Louisville.

Hmm.

Fact is we are growing and trying to build new electronic systems to make all this as easy as possible on everyone. I was pretty excited to know what was supposed to happen for the Indoor this year. Turns out the guys cancelled on us last min (monday) and the staff had to do it all by hand. All in all, pretty damn impressive if I do say so myself. Better to do it old skool than to have it be wrong, right?

whatever...

Haters will live on every game, good bad or indifferent. I think they did a hell of a job, we had a super giant kickass event (with over 100 cubs mind you!!) A HUNDRED!!! 

Here is *my* take away from the weekend - We set records for attendance, for participation by specific groups (kids), for the practice with the Pros event, and for the Pro-Am, we broke several scoring records as well. Kids shooting 120x's, Adults pounding the same, and Pro women pushing it to 119x's -
The vendor area was full, the shooting lines were full, and for the most part it came off fairly smooth using a 100% volunteer staff writing manual cards for over 1400 people. Oh and FWIW... those volunteers are mostly old enough to be your parents or grandparents...

Your take away is to be angry about a fee you werent going to pay because you werent going anyway but felt like you needed to ***** about on AT.

Cool. 
Guess we have different goals bro.
See ya on the line! (or not)


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## Beastmaster

FV Chuck said:


> Interesting then how Vegas this year was the biggest ever...as was Louisville. (snip)


Dropping this little tidbit to the table here:

On Facebook, NFAA President Bruce Cull said that attendance for the Indoor Nationals was under 1500 archers. The WAF in Vegas had under 2000 archers that shot this year.

In comparison (or to help bolster my point, see below) - USA Archery's 44th National Indoor had an estimated (by me using the most recent results posted for the yet-to-be-final results) 2300 archers across 10 regions. Of which, 900 of them were kids shooting the JOAD side of the world and about 800 kids shot the National Indoor side. (Don't ask me about those that shot both - I'm not analyzing and determining the count for that!)

Vegas was the only tournament in what I'm listing above that had any semblance of automation. The rest? Manual labor. All of these tournaments had a late fee. Just sayin'.....

-Steve


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## carlosii

field14 said:


> Yes, they do...it is called "pre-registration"(or registering BEFORE the deadline when late fees take effect!)...then you don't have to pay the "late registration fee."
> It isn't the "early", or "within the time frame" registrations that cause the nightmares! It is those last minute people that set things behind, help to create havoc, induce errors or potential quandries. Having to deal with the last minute crap is a HUGE hassle for the tournament committee/staff!
> Bad enough to deal with the no-shows, but that is more of a hassle for the line judges and staff running that shooting line!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I think you missed my point, Tom.


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## J Whittington

Another example of why the divide between paper punchers and 3ders will cotinue. NFAA has the right to run its orginization how they see fit. We have the right to choose to participat or not. I choose not to attend because of the elitist attitude that the NFAA exhibits. 

Thank you ASA, IBO, and Rob/Lancaster for always making my wife and I feel welcomed and apprieciated. And, for not punishing us when we (rarely) do not pre-register when we are unsure that we can attend untill the last day/minute.


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## tmorelli

FV Chuck said:


> Interesting then how Vegas this year was the biggest ever...as was Louisville.
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Fact is we are growing and trying to build new electronic systems to make all this as easy as possible on everyone. I was pretty excited to know what was supposed to happen for the Indoor this year. Turns out the guys cancelled on us last min (monday) and the staff had to do it all by hand. All in all, pretty damn impressive if I do say so myself. Better to do it old skool than to have it be wrong, right?
> 
> whatever...
> 
> Haters will live on every game, good bad or indifferent. I think they did a hell of a job, we had a super giant kickass event (with over 100 cubs mind you!!) A HUNDRED!!!
> 
> Here is *my* take away from the weekend - We set records for attendance, for participation by specific groups (kids), for the practice with the Pros event, and for the Pro-Am, we broke several scoring records as well. Kids shooting 120x's, Adults pounding the same, and Pro women pushing it to 119x's -
> The vendor area was full, the shooting lines were full, and for the most part it came off fairly smooth using a 100% volunteer staff writing manual cards for over 1400 people. Oh and FWIW... those volunteers are mostly old enough to be your parents or grandparents...
> 
> Your take away is to be angry about a fee you werent going to pay because you werent going anyway but felt like you needed to ***** about on AT.
> 
> Cool.
> Guess we have different goals bro.
> See ya on the line! (or not)


That is all great news for those shoots Chuck and I commend the efforts of those who made it happen. 

What I would like to know is the percentage of new/young shooters. And I would like to know they're participation at events outside of the largest national stages. How are the state organizations and sectionals doing? 

My point was directed at Tom. I simply get tired of his attitude...... and I feel it is attitudes like his at lower levels that handicaps the growth nationally.

I still see the late fee as a barrier to growth with potential new customers.

And for what its worth, I think you'd struggle to build a case that I'm a "whiner", "*****er" or lack accountability as Tom implied anyone who might disagree with him or a late fee is. 

Good luck in your ventures. 



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## gcab

Arcus said:


> Having friends who are mentally handicapped, this response of yours causes me to have no respect for your opinion.


I agree as well. No respect for that opinion either.

Find it pretty ridiculous that people are arguing the late fee still. Seriously... there is an extremly large amount of time to be able to register without paying it, so if you don't, then it's your own fault. If you dont know if you can make it or not, then register, and if you can't, then call the NFAA and I'm sure they will work with you so you dont lose your money. 

If you pay your property taxes late, do you pay a fee? If you pay your car payment late, do you pay a fee? If you pay your cell phone late, do you pay a fee? Late fees apply to everything and they should. Either prepare ahead or time, or dont, but that is your fault, and only your fault. You don't register on time and don't want to pay the fee, then don't. It's not that hard.


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## r49740

tmorelli said:


> That is all great news for those shoots Chuck and I commend the efforts of those who made it happen.
> 
> What I would like to know is the percentage of new/young shooters. And I would like to know they're participation at events outside of the largest national stages. How are the state organizations and sectionals doing?
> 
> My point was directed at Tom. I simply get tired of his attitude...... and I feel it is attitudes like his at lower levels that handicaps the growth nationally.
> 
> I still see the late fee as a barrier to growth with potential new customers.
> 
> And for what its worth, I think you'd struggle to build a case that I'm a "whiner", "*****er" or lack accountability as Tom implied anyone who might disagree with him or a late fee is.
> 
> Good luck in your ventures.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Our state has participation that has grown every year for the last 4 years in almost every one of the 7 tournaments that are run in the state each year under the NFAA games. And we also have a late fee for registration. Numbers have still grown. Allows those running the tournaments to have score cards, lane assignments and awards ready to go to make it quick for the shooters. Seems logical to me.

Chuck, any word on the registration process? I agree with the late fee, assuming the late fee allows that register on time to be able to plan for what they registered for to start with.

Also, props to all of you for the weekned. Was great to have line times for Sunday posted so early on Saturday. That is a very huge improvement for something so simple, and was fantastic.


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## tmorelli

r49740 said:


> Our state has participation that has grown every year for the last 4 years in almost every one of the 7 tournaments that are run in the state each year under the NFAA games.


That is good news. What state is that?



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## r49740

tmorelli said:


> That is good news. What state is that?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Ohio


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## YankeeRebel

Just wondering here.. ..... but exactly what does charging a late fee do for signing up shooters for the event? I mean really.......by getting a late fee does it magically relieve all hardship of getting shooters processed? Am I missing something here?


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## tmorelli

r49740 said:


> Ohio


I was genuinely curious about a path to state level success so I just did a quick google search for Ohio nfaa.

I thought this was at least a little funny.....

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1949848

No late fees.....advertised.

I had to go check out ohioarchers.com too. It looks like indoor attendance ia pretty good and you've got some home state shooters to be especially proud of now. Field attendance doesn't seem to be good. I didn't look through multiple years from my phone and try to do the math. Is it noticeably growing too?

I don't really care much for indoor but i shoot it. I really like field but its hard to attend as there is no real opportunity for it without enormous travel expenses and vacation burn. As a side note, i also can't ignore the fact that unless i shoot pro and perfect, there is no opportunity for my performance to help pay for the cost of my trip. The outflow of my budget is not unlimited. In ASA 3d, this trip may fund the next at least. 


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## field14

tmorelli said:


> That is all great news for those shoots Chuck and I commend the efforts of those who made it happen.
> 
> What I would like to know is the percentage of new/young shooters. And I would like to know they're participation at events outside of the largest national stages. How are the state organizations and sectionals doing?
> 
> My point was directed at Tom. *I simply get tired of his attitude...... and I feel it is attitudes like his at lower levels that handicaps the growth nationally.*
> 
> I still see the late fee as a barrier to growth with potential new customers.
> 
> And for what its worth, I think you'd struggle to build a case that I'm a "whiner", "*****er" or lack accountability as _Tom implied a_nyone who might disagree with him or a late fee is.
> 
> Good luck in your ventures.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


....And attitudes like yours just inspire everyone to attend and YOUR attitude makes the sport GROW? NOT!! 
C'mon...talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Nothing elitist at all. Been in this game for nearly 50 years, and in those nearly 50 years, more often than not for any 'larger' event, and even a lot of smaller events, LATE FEES HAVE APPLIED...This even includes the STATE and SECTIONAL events, too, let alone Vegas and Nationals!

'Nuf said...you weren't going anyways, late fee or not; just needed an excuse and picked that one. Next time, it might be "I wasn't "ready" in time. 
"Tom Implied"? YOU are reading into things and putting words into my mouth yet again.


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## tmorelli

field14 said:


> ....And attitudes like yours just inspire everyone to attend and YOUR attitude makes the sport GROW? NOT!!
> C'mon...talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
> Nothing elitist at all. Been in this game for nearly 50 years, and in those nearly 50 years, more often than not for any 'larger' event, and even a lot of smaller events, LATE FEES HAVE APPLIED...This even includes the STATE and SECTIONAL events, too, let alone Vegas and Nationals!
> 
> 'Nuf said...you weren't going anyways, late fee or not; just needed an excuse and picked that one. Next time, it might be "I wasn't "ready" in time.
> "Tom Implied"? YOU are reading into things and putting words into my mouth yet again.


I've already said, I really don't care about the late fees. I NEVER copped ANY excuse for not attending and I owe you no explanation but I did consider attending along with several friends but ultimately decided in favor of more 3d in my schedule. All made the same decision..... why? If there was any one thing to single out.... it might be the lack of payouts outside the pro class and the high entry fees to shoot a bale. It doesn't help that vegas is only a week apart from FL and indoor nats is a week after Ga. But the late fee had no effect on me or anyone I know. I have said that I think the late fee is a deterrent to new growth and unjustified. But don't confuse that with my real beef here.... your arrogance and elitist attitude. I thought I'd been very clear on that at least.

As for my attitude, i try to keep it limited to my dealings with you.  i hope I've been cordial to everyone else with the exception of my poor choice of words earlier that I've apologized for and been reprimanded.


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## field14

tmorelli said:


> I've already said, I really don't care about the late fees. I NEVER copped ANY excuse for not attending and I owe you no explanation but I did consider attending along with several friends but ultimately decided in favor of more 3d in my schedule. All made the same decision..... why? If there was any one thing to single out.... it might be the lack of payouts outside the pro class and the high entry fees to shoot a bale. It doesn't help that vegas is only a week apart from FL and indoor nats is a week after Ga. But the late fee had no effect on me or anyone I know. I have said that I think the late fee is a deterrent to new growth and unjustified. But don't confuse that with my real beef here.... your arrogance and elitist attitude. I thought I'd been very clear on that at least.
> 
> As for my attitude, i try to keep it limited to my dealings with you.  i hope I've been cordial to everyone else with the exception of my poor choice of words earlier that I've apologized for and been reprimanded.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


So...put me on your "IGNORE" list then. Easy. You won't stop me from my opinion, and I won't stop you from making yours...but...I won't stand by and be the victim of what you imply, and won't stand for the insults either.


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## Arcus

tmorelli said:


> It was an insensitive choice of words on my behalf.
> 
> My apologies.


Thank you. You're back on my read list.


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## treeman65

field14 said:


> So...put me on your "IGNORE" list then. Easy. You won't stop me from my opinion, and I won't stop you from making yours...but...I won't stand by and be the victim of what you imply, and won't stand for the insults either.


I won't ignore you but you need to come back to jtown and help get a field range going


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## field14

treeman65 said:


> I won't ignore you but you need to come back to jtown and help get a field range going


Treeman65: Soooo.....I would imagine that the "control" of the old Skyline range is still out of reach, isn't it? Is there still a field range down around Warren, or has that also gone to the 7 winds? I see names of old "Skyline members" on postings and IBO shoot lists now and again, and a couple have purchased my books

Of course, I don't know to whom I'm speaking, by name, but you obviously know me?

Had some good times and great scores on the Skyline Range, along with the Zippo in Bradford and several others. Oil City, PA was also "good to me" score-wise; tougher course, but it made a person concentrate.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## r49740

tmorelli said:


> I was genuinely curious about a path to state level success so I just did a quick google search for Ohio nfaa.
> 
> I thought this was at least a little funny.....
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1949848
> 
> No late fees.....advertised.
> 
> I had to go check out ohioarchers.com too. It looks like indoor attendance ia pretty good and you've got some home state shooters to be especially proud of now. Field attendance doesn't seem to be good. I didn't look through multiple years from my phone and try to do the math. Is it noticeably growing too?
> 
> I don't really care much for indoor but i shoot it. I really like field but its hard to attend as there is no real opportunity for it without enormous travel expenses and vacation burn. As a side note, i also can't ignore the fact that unless i shoot pro and perfect, there is no opportunity for my performance to help pay for the cost of my trip. The outflow of my budget is not unlimited. In ASA 3d, this trip may fund the next at least.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



You are trying to make an point on something that you do not have any details or knowledge on. The Sectionals is an NFAA event, not a state event. The states run them like a mail in so that more shops and shooters can get involved if they want. The Ohio affiliate does not get a nickel from the dues for this event, some goes to the shop and some goes to the NFAA. As I stated above, the Ohio affiliate has late fees for our tournaments that are run for the state, and our attendance has gone up.

I also did not say that we had massive attendence at all or any of our events. I just said that the participation has grown in 7 of the events that are run each year, and has been that way for the last 4 years.. and is on track for this year as well so far.


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## treeman65

r49740 said:


> You are trying to make an point on something that you do not have any details or knowledge on. The Sectionals is an NFAA event, not a state event. The states run them like a mail in so that more shops and shooters can get involved if they want. The Ohio affiliate does not get a nickel from the dues for this event, some goes to the shop and some goes to the NFAA. As I stated above, the Ohio affiliate has late fees for our tournaments that are run for the state, and our attendance has gone up.
> 
> I also did not say that we had massive attendence at all or any of our events. I just said that the participation has grown in 7 of the events that are run each year, and has been that way for the last 4 years.. and is on track for this year as well so far.


Where can I find a listing of your field shoots Me and the wife are always up for a roadtrip


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## treeman65

field14 said:


> Treeman65: Soooo.....I would imagine that the "control" of the old Skyline range is still out of reach, isn't it? Is there still a field range down around Warren, or has that also gone to the 7 winds? I see names of old "Skyline members" on postings and IBO shoot lists now and again, and a couple have purchased my books
> 
> Of course, I don't know to whom I'm speaking, by name, but you obviously know me?
> 
> 
> Had some good times and great scores on the Skyline Range, along with the Zippo in Bradford and several others. Oil City, PA was also "good to me" score-wise; tougher course, but it made a person concentrate.
> 
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


We have talked about some of the old time shooters from jtown and ranges. Yes warren range is still there but they don't do any field tournaments. I m considering starting up my own range


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## r49740

treeman65 said:


> Where can I find a listing of your field shoots Me and the wife are always up for a roadtrip


Our State field tournament will be at Clinton County Sportsmans Club in South Western Ohio. As far as tournaments, that is about it for the year in the state unfortunately. Punderson State Park has a free public range open 7 days a week which maybe closer for you. Has practice bales from 10 yards to 80, then a 14 target course laid out. For being free and open to the public, it is a fantastic facility.


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## tmorelli

r49740 said:


> You are trying to make an point on something that you do not have any details or knowledge on. The Sectionals is an NFAA event, not a state event. The states run them like a mail in so that more shops and shooters can get involved if they want. The Ohio affiliate does not get a nickel from the dues for this event, some goes to the shop and some goes to the NFAA. As I stated above, the Ohio affiliate has late fees for our tournaments that are run for the state, and our attendance has gone up.
> 
> I also did not say that we had massive attendence at all or any of our events. I just said that the participation has grown in 7 of the events that are run each year, and has been that way for the last 4 years.. and is on track for this year as well so far.


Easy killer. I was asking questions.... not trying to make a point.


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## field14

Someone asked earlier or maybe they mentioned "little growth"????

Check this video out! Pay close attention to what these guys are doing with KIDS and younger folks; what they have to say about the NFAA lowering the age for SENIORS to age 50-59 effective June 1, 2013...and what is the TRUTH about TARGET (paper shooting) on a world-wide scale.
What they say about competiveness, comaraderie, and respect....
What they say about the number of kids more than quadrupling....?????? Record attendances at TARGET tournaments?
They mention 45% let-off? It was, in the beginning way lower than that!!! I have an ancient bow...1973...that peaks at 35# and holds at 28#!! The bow could easily get 125 yards on the extended site bar with 1816 aluminum arrows with 9% points! Original string and cables are still on that bow, too...56" ATA (custom built "Sweeney Bow", but made for finger shooting).
http://vimeo.com/62228115


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## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> I'm looking into it... dont take my lack of comments right now as inaction. It just takes a bit to get all the answers. People are travelling to the shoot and such right now.
> 
> Trust when I say I am absolutely horrified by that comment from Hoyt Em earlier....I feel gutted by it.
> 
> So again, before I say anything..I'd like to chat with Natalie and her team to find out how the registration is done. I mean I'm pretty sure I have a good idea but I dont want to get it wrong and spread bad info.
> 
> Thanks all -
> 
> Chuck


Do you still feel gutted by the responses we had received, or have you had a chance to find out details? Any updates for us Joe's as to why it would be like that?


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## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> Do you still feel gutted by the responses we had received, or have you had a chance to find out details? Any updates for us Joe's as to why it would be like that?


Yep - 

I've had all sorts of conversations - leadership, office mgmt, and the shooter who had the call in person.

I feel it's 100% safe to say that the communication he had was isolated and completely not the attitude of the office or the NFAA.
The leadership of the Org and her supervisors are up to speed on the situation and I don't expect we will ever have something like that happen again.

Any further comment by me is inappropriate other than to say again is it NOT the position or a true reflection of the Pro's or the office or the NFAA as a whole.. 

CHuck


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## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Yep -
> 
> I've had all sorts of conversations - leadership, office mgmt, and the shooter who had the call in person.
> 
> I feel it's 100% safe to say that the communication he had was isolated and completely not the attitude of the office or the NFAA.
> The leadership of the Org and her supervisors are up to speed on the situation and I don't expect we will ever have something like that happen again.
> 
> Any further comment by me is inappropriate other than to say again is it NOT the position or a true reflection of the Pro's or the office or the NFAA as a whole..
> 
> CHuck


Thanks for looking into it for us. It wasn't necessarily 1 shooter in an isolated call since my buddy had the same response as well, which is why I posted in the first place, but any event, thanks for the response. So just so we can be prepared ahead of time and do what we need to do for future events, is registration first come first serve type setup, or are lanes going to be continued to be reserved for Pros that did not register, but may at some point?


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## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> Thanks for looking into it for us. It wasn't necessarily 1 shooter in an isolated call since my buddy had the same response as well, which is why I posted in the first place, but any event, thanks for the response. So just so we can be prepared ahead of time and do what we need to do for future events, is registration first come first serve type setup, or are lanes going to be continued to be reserved for Pros that did not register, but may at some point?


Registration for *ALL* shooters is based on trying to keep those shooters who shoot in same or similar styles together and at the same times. EVERY effort will be made to keep them together whenever possible.

There is no reservation system or preferential treatment for Pro's who have not pre-registered. They try to guesstimate how many bales will be needed for each division/class and build it from there. As groups grow, shifts may take place but every effort possible is made to keep everyone on the line they request when possible. Moving people is complex on the coordinators end and inconvenient for our customers end... Neither is enjoyable.

Please trust that Natalie and her crew do everything they can to not move people, however based on the fluid nature of how many shooters sign up, things might happen. You might want to consider looking at the over 100 cubs we had this year. A HUGE record. Natalie again is trying to keep groups together and shifting may have taken place because we are finally seeing growth in the right part of the membership. 

I can tell you that each and every Pro I represent would gladly shoot at dawn if it meant there was a room filled to the gills of kids up there.

Also please understand that Jessica's response is completely out of line, inappropriate, and inaccurate. Not one person at the office or the management of NFAA supports or endorses her position.

Chuck


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## MMBowhtr

This doesn't need to be hard at all, you now know the # of Pros that shot this year, simply alocate sufficiant bales to accomodate them until the registration deadline and advertise this to the Pro's, when they are full then they get the same treatment as anyone esle that registers late. The only thing that was a real pain for me this year was that on the first day I was down by the cubs in the corner, it was brutal just trying to get to my butt to shoot with all the parents hoovering around, at one point I litteraly had to push through to get to my spot to shoot. If I may suggest to put the cubs near the entrence so the cubs parents can watch without crowding out others, that was my only complaint for the shoot


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## FV Chuck

MMBowhtr said:


> This doesn't need to be hard at all, you now know the # of Pros that shot this year, simply alocate sufficiant bales to accomodate them until the registration deadline and advertise this to the Pro's, when they are full then they get the same treatment as anyone esle that registers late. The only thing that was a real pain for me this year was that on the first day I was down by the cubs in the corner, it was brutal just trying to get to my butt to shoot with all the parents hoovering around, at one point I litteraly had to push through to get to my spot to shoot. If I may suggest to put the cubs near the entrence so the cubs parents can watch without crowding out others, that was my only complaint for the shoot



Ejecting from this insanity now....

Send me your contact info, I'll make sure we reach out for some help in registration since you pretty much got it on lock as to the simplicity...we could clearly use your help and guidance....seriously. Send it to me. no Joke. I better see you at the desk.

I'll also start to draft a memo for all those pesky kids and parents to stay out of your way... god knows I don't need a brawl down there from all the pushing and shoving your way to the line....who knew it was so awful! - *whew!
Maybe I'll sit out the Pro line and give a kid my spot so he dosent have to worry about you bumping into him either...

Later-


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## Beastmaster

Some comments....

1) Timely registration = timely bale assignments = happy archers.

Using Cubs as an example here - they shoot at 10 yards. Late registrations mean that bales have to be rearranged. You're going to have 10 yard bales and 20 yard bales. Unlike Vegas (where everyone shoots at 20 yards), you can't mix and match age groups in this case. 

Say you had a perfect number of 120 cubs, and you had a lone latecomer. The organizers would literally have to pull another bale back to 10 yards to place the single cub shooter there. 

That, in turn, kills any hope of adding an adult shooter on that bale. Instead of having 4 shooters there, you have one.

This is where the argument and comparison of "3D allows you to walk up any time" becomes invalid. Congratulations - 3D does allow you to walk up and shoot. Why? You don't rearrange anything for latecomers other than hand them a scorecard, smile at them, and take their money. 

If you had a latecomer in the NFAA Indoor or a USA Archery indoor shoot, you run the risk of having to bump people around to accommodate the latecomer due to target size (USA Archery with 40cm vs. 3 spot vertical) and or distance (NFAA with 10 vs. 20 yards).

(sarcasm on) Of course, some of the issues can be resolved by making Cubs shoot 20 yards all the time, like they do in Vegas. This way you're not moving bale distances. (sarcasm off)

2) Pros should be the group that would NEVER be complaining about registration and start times. You don't see Tennis pros griping about the ATP or WTA. You don't see Golf pros complaining about the PGA and LPGA. Enough said. You're a PROFESSIONAL. Suck it up. Heck, my 11 year old hates waking up at 4:30 to make the 7am Vegas line on Saturday. You don't see him complaining about it on Facebook or here on ArcheryTalk....he shuts up and shoots. 

3) At what cost do we place discipline into the mix? We as archers (and archery coaches) look at proper mindset, discipline, and execution as keys to success. Is deadlines NOT a part of archery and that we shouldn't emphasize it?

In the NFAA and World Archery/USA Archery, we have time limits for shooting "X" amount of arrows. If you ignore the deadline of registration and eliminate the penalty, then one could absurdly argue that you could ignore the time limit of 40 seconds per arrow (roughly) and if you go over that time limit, you wouldn't suffer a penalty either.

Rules exist for a reason. Just like people obsess over the speed limit (for 3D), draw weight limit (for NFAA and USA Archery), and arrow size, people really should obsess over getting their registration into the organizers in a timely manner. If nothing else, it's the polite thing to do.

4) Archery is a business. Just like a church can be construed as a business to bring people to some sort of religion (and not lose money doing it), Archery tournaments are a business (like the WAF is a sole and separate business) or part of a business operation as well....and you hope that you don't lose your shirt in putting a tournament on.

And just like in business, a business owner is there to fight for the dollar of their customer. It's the customer's decision to spend their money where they want to. 

You, as a customer, have the choice to spend your money where you see fit. If you feel better spending it on 3D, cool! If you feel better spending it on paper punching, Cool! 

5) Some of the comments have been involving payouts to non-Pro archers.

If you take a rough average (excluding those that paid into the Pro tournament fees), the amount that the NFAA brought in is about $100k.

Renting out the Expo center in Louisville isn't cheap. Vendors that pay to be part of the tournament aren't getting that much of a break to where the NFAA is making any money on it. If one took educated guesses, plus information from the public information that is gleaned from NFAA board meetings and such, Indoor Nationals is a break even or minor loss at best.

I ask this question - are people willing to pay an increase in fees to cover payouts for non-Pro flights? For example, make the registration fees similar to Vegas so you can get Vegas like flight payouts?

Anyhow, I've brought more discussion points to the table. Let's see what the reaction is...

-Steve


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## MMBowhtr

FV Chuck said:


> Ejecting from this insanity now....
> 
> Send me your contact info, I'll make sure we reach out for some help in registration since you pretty much got it on lock as to the simplicity...we could clearly use your help and guidance....seriously. Send it to me. no Joke. I better see you at the desk.
> 
> I'll also start to draft a memo for all those pesky kids and parents to stay out of your way... god knows I don't need a brawl down there from all the pushing and shoving your way to the line....who knew it was so awful! - *whew!
> Maybe I'll sit out the Pro line and give a kid my spot so he dosent have to worry about you bumping into him either...
> 
> Later-


WOW where the hell did that come from???? maybe you didn't get what I was saying, I don't know the exact # of Pros but lets say you had 250 Pros of all discriptions that works out to approx 62 bails, advetise that 62 bails will be held for the Pro's until registration deadline after that they could find themselves at 7am in some other group. What's hard about that?

As for the cubs,I know it wasn't just me but my suggestion would also allow the rest of the parents to watch from behind them instead of crowding in on the side, they couldn't stand behind them because of the wall from the practice range, how is moving them to a more open area a bad thing.


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## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Ejecting from this insanity now....
> 
> Send me your contact info, I'll make sure we reach out for some help in registration since you pretty much got it on lock as to the simplicity...we could clearly use your help and guidance....seriously. Send it to me. no Joke. I better see you at the desk.
> 
> I'll also start to draft a memo for all those pesky kids and parents to stay out of your way... god knows I don't need a brawl down there from all the pushing and shoving your way to the line....who knew it was so awful! - *whew!
> Maybe I'll sit out the Pro line and give a kid my spot so he dosent have to worry about you bumping into him either...
> 
> Later-[/QUOTE
> 
> Seems harsh for a valid point. Those walls that were put up gave no room for chairs or anyone to watch. I know this since I shot down there during the pro am. So if each child had at least 1 parent or coach, let alone 2... there was no room for that. Again, seems to be a valid point to put the kids on the other end by the doors where there was plenty of room for their folks and coaches.


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## Hoyt_em

Pro classes shooting all over the clock is NOT a good idea. 

You want them to feel the heat of each other's shooting
You don't want the chance for favorable calls to be given...they play for a pile of cash, they aren't going to "give" each other anything. 

What about two lines (smaller) for the pro classes...one for early registrants, one for the late registrants??

Shoving kids around to accommodate adults is NOT the answer, IMHO. Having said that, that corner (around bale 100, i shot down there for the Pro/Am)was kinda crammed for the needed adults and kiddos shooting. SIMPLE fix...adjust where the kiddos shoot...how about front and center (figuratively)...show the boys and girls off. 

Getting the Pro/Am straight HAS to be a disaster. I know I took a looksie at the registration booth and there was a pretty dang big line...at 5:55pm. It is clear the friday night move for the Pro/Am worked...hence, record numbers, on both sides of the slash. With that kind of turn out, MAYBE, a harder line will have to held on registration times? I know, it will stink, but...What is the only other real option? A hard line on registration AND a known later start time??

My dime. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FV Chuck

Hoyt_em said:


> Pro classes shooting all over the clock is NOT a good idea.
> 
> You want them to feel the heat of each other's shooting
> You don't want the chance for favorable calls to be given...they play for a pile of cash, they aren't going to "give" each other anything.
> 
> What about two lines (smaller) for the pro classes...one for early registrants, one for the late registrants??
> 
> Shoving kids around to accommodate adults is NOT the answer, IMHO. Having said that, that corner (around bale 100, i shot down there for the Pro/Am)was kinda crammed for the needed adults and kiddos shooting. SIMPLE fix...adjust where the kiddos shoot...how about front and center (figuratively)...show the boys and girls off.
> 
> Getting the Pro/Am straight HAS to be a disaster. I know I took a looksie at the registration booth and there was a pretty dang big line...at 5:55pm. It is clear the friday night move for the Pro/Am worked...hence, record numbers, on both sides of the slash. With that kind of turn out, MAYBE, a harder line will have to held on registration times? I know, it will stink, but...What is the only other real option? A hard line on registration AND a known later start time??
> 
> My dime.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Better tone-
Valid points...all of 'em
I can work with that.


I know that corner was tight, I get it...but the tone about the kids was not well laid out in the other post.
The easiest thing there when you encounter it in the future FWIW is to grab a line judge and just mention to him it's stuffed like a fat sock in the corner. PLease have the tower (DOS) give a tad extra time for all the shuffling...those guys as well as us are suuuuuuper tolerant of pretty much whatever the kids need. The message will get around pretty quick and you wont have issues


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## MMBowhtr

Hoyt_em said:


> Pro classes shooting all over the clock is NOT a good idea.
> 
> You want them to feel the heat of each other's shooting
> You don't want the chance for favorable calls to be given...they play for a pile of cash, they aren't going to "give" each other anything.
> 
> What about two lines (smaller) for the pro classes...one for early registrants, one for the late registrants??
> 
> Shoving kids around to accommodate adults is NOT the answer, IMHO. Having said that, that corner (around bale 100, i shot down there for the Pro/Am)was kinda crammed for the needed adults and kiddos shooting. SIMPLE fix...adjust where the kiddos shoot...how about front and center (figuratively)...show the boys and girls off.
> 
> Getting the Pro/Am straight HAS to be a disaster. I know I took a looksie at the registration booth and there was a pretty dang big line...at 5:55pm. It is clear the friday night move for the Pro/Am worked...hence, record numbers, on both sides of the slash. With that kind of turn out, MAYBE, a harder line will have to held on registration times? I know, it will stink, but...What is the only other real option? A hard line on registration AND a known later start time??
> 
> My dime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





We are not talking about all Pro's just the ones that can't get their act togther with a years notice, as for favorable calls, that would infer something neferious from the get go and maybe they shouldn't be in the Pro ranks ,after all this would be for day 1 anyway day 2 they would be with their peers like everyone else.

The Pro am will mostlikely be a headach no matter how it is done due the fact that not too many people plan to shoot it before hand and seems to be treated as an add on, I can't remember but can you pre register for the ProAm? if not maybe that is something to look into.I stopped shooting it years ago due to the late night it created.


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## carlosii

the pga doesn't seem to have a problem with their pros getting registered well in advance. perhaps nfaa could take a look in their playbook for some ideas. just an idea.


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## Hoyt_em

I made ZERO reference to a pro class shooter and any lack of credibility.

The credibility lies on Joe's...let the fiascos we have been whiteness to over the last year. 6th arrow in BHFS, laser range finder cover up are two examples of the top of my head. 

I would venture a guess there are PLENTY more unscrupulous ones shooting. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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