# Instinctive VS Gap scientific study



## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I am thinking Sandy wins even if both of you are using the Gap system... :mg: Hey Ben made me say that!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Now that is out of the way, sounds like a fun adventure and will be waiting for the results!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Gary,

In order for this to be fair Sandy will have to shoot instinctive and you shoot gap. By the way, how many points is she spotting you?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

2413gary said:


> There has been a lot of discussion here lately on which is the most accurate type of aiming system instinctive aiming or Gap aiming. After All of us here trying to prove which is best along with the Websters dictionary we haven't proven anything except that we are all twisted. So to settle this once and for all my wife Sandy McCain almost a Trad household name who prefers tied on nock sets instead of a pencil mark on her string. And I her loving husband and xcoach will perform a scientific experiment. This Sunday we will travel to the Oranco archery club and shoot the world famous Tomahawk 42 target 3d shoot. Sandy will shoot exclusively using the California Gap system that itbeso says is the most accurate aiming ever. While I will shoot instinctive said to be the best system for hunting and 3d targets. This should cover the foam killers the hunters and the paper punchers.
> 
> Sandy will practice her gaps and I will practice totally unmarked this week. Come Sunday we should both be ready for Battle. There will be no punches pulled I am sure it will be bloody we may need first aid before its over. There will be no referee but their will be witness's. Any and all who would like to give advise to each of us through out this week please feel free to do so. We are up for the challenge. When this historic shoot out is over it will be like the OK corral when the smoke settles we will see who is left standing and which system is best.
> 
> Gary and Sandy McCain


Hehe... yer confidence quotient is somewhat under-provided... me thinks that there is a sorta gap in the understanding of abilities.... however... though I wen't wit the lovely Ms. McCain, I'm hoping that you stand tall fer all us males of the species you know... :grin:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Gary,

you're screwed.

That is all,

-Grant


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Betcha switch back to gap 3 targets in. 

Matt


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

How will anyone know if you are shooting instinctively? If you look at or see the arrow in your field of vision while at full draw I think you will start to gap. The only fair way to do this is have you go to the stake, look at the target then either put on a blindfold or close your eyes. Only then will we be certain that you are not cheating just to keep from gettin your butt kicked. My vote is for Sandy no matter what you do.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Why not take an instinctive guy on the forum - say - me - and the guy who has made the most videos on how to gap shoot - say RangerB and put us on the range together and see who shoots better - oh - wait - that has happened several times and we shoot at the same level - so it is a draw - done deal.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Hmmmm....you guys should have fun with this...but it also could get frustrating.

I'm curious...has anyone really said a particular aiming technique is 'the best'...or have people just stated the general advanatages and disadvantages to them under specific circumstances like I try to explain?

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

It depends on the person - I have been able to use instinctive aiming and consistently do well with it regardless of the type of shooting or targets - be it moving targets, 3d targets, 300 round paper targets, whatever - of course everything has it's limitations - and instinctive does have a limitation of distance - for most of us 40 yards or less - for some a little more - it is not a long range game.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I will be at this shoot also. I will keep an eye on Gary to make sure he isn't gap shooting. I will make up a shield that when he is at full draw there is no way he can see his arrow tip.
That way we can be sure he isn't shooting a gap.
Maybe Sharp should try this too. :wink:
My money is on Sandy.
Don.


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

We all know that string walking beats instinctive and gap. This will be to work out what is second best.

:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

These guys with the idea that a shield or blindfold or shooting in darkness - are missing sooo many things.

A few years ago a guy challenged me to shoot in the dark - so I did - I put a light on the target and the room I shot in was dark - I shot fine - no different than any other time. Then he asked me to try it in complete darkness - so dark that you cannot see your hand in front of your face and using a laser pointer as a target - so that there is no ambient light - so I tried it - and it was down right dangerous - I could not even hit that target - let alone the laser dot.

He almost had me convinced - till I went to the local school and in the gym did some experiments - I shoot a basketball over my head - so I am not using anything to line up the shot or "gap" - I can shoot baskets reasonably well up close - then I tried it with the laser pointer and all the lights turned off in the room - and I could not even hit the backboard!

You see - our brain needs to be able to have feedback to calculate elevation, windage, etc... - that does not mean that you need a sight or a gap - there is no sight and no gap when I hold a basketball over my head and throw it - yet in the darkness I could not do it.

Do you think if you blindfolded a baseball player or basketball player they could throw accurately?

I also noticed that if I shoot out of a ground blind I tend to shoot very low - it takes practice for me to get used to shooting in a ground blind - the reason - my peripheral vision is blocked and my brain is not getting accurate feedback as to how far away the target is - this is actually PROOF that I am not aiming at a conscious level - if I aimed at a conscious level - a 20 yard shot is a 20 yard shot - regardless of whether or not I have peripheral vision feedback - but the fact that my brain uses this feedback at a subconscious level is proof that I am not consciously aiming - to anyone willing to think about it.

If you take a guy with sights and he sets his sight to 20 yards and the target is 20 yards - it would not matter if he was in a ground blind or not - he will shoot just as accurate - but an instinctive shooter will have issues - because he is determing distance at a subconscious level and his brain requires the feedback of his peripheral vision to accurately determine the distance of the target - but in a ground blind with a very small window - there is very limited feedback and hence the subconscious is sort of "tricked", for lack of a better world, into perceiving the target as closer than it actually is.

As I have always maintained - instinctive shooting is simply trusting your subconscious to aim the bow - and it works very well if you have good and solid form - the problem is that most instinctive shooters think that they have to snap shoot, bend over and twist all over the place to be a "true instinctive" shooter - when in reality - the best way to shoot instinctive is to find the most comfortable and consistent anchor and body position that you can find that still maintains good back tension.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Stringwalking is basically sight shooting - just using a rear sight and I agree it is in a different class than gap or instinctive - whether it is better or not depends on the person and the given day - but I would imagine in most cases it has an advantage - after all it is a sight system - an adjustable rear sight


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

You booth need to shoot from the long stakes.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Will there be a "shoot from behind your back at a thrown potato" event? I hear that's the real benchmark of accuracy.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I spent some time at the weekend teaching a very good compound shooter how to shoot a flat bow he bought from me. Way easier than teaching a newb but still harder than I thought.
The first thing he said to was "I want to shoot traditional style". After 10 minutes of explaining why there was no such thing he said "we'll ok, I want to shoot like Fred Bear", I said "what badly"? He said no that instinctive thing. I just smiled to myself and bit my tongue because he's a good friend.
After working on basic form and anchor on the bale we went to a 10yd target for him to shoot. First thing he did is draw, look down the arrow, point at the spot and loose the arrow. The arrow landed 18" high, same for the next 5. I asked him what that told him, he said I guess I need to aim 18" low at 10yds then. We went on to do that at all the butts up to 30yds, he got good real quick and was very pleased with himself. By the end of the day he was shooting a bit less mechanical and hitting a good share of bullseyes. He asked if this was instinctive shooting, I gave up at that point and told him there was no such thing, he was gap shooting, whether conscious or subconscious everything below SW is a form of gapping. Some do it in a mechanical way, needing to see that gap and consciously calculate it, others let the brain do it on a sub conscious level, just bringing back data and pictures it has on file and using that info to set the gap. He got that and said it was like teaching his son how to throw a ball, the first times he did it he had no clue how to throw it at a pace that would get it to his dad, a few times later his brain had learned that distance and that is what instinctive shooters went through.
I remember learning to shoot a bow at Fleet Ibex club in the UK, 20yd paper face, first arrow 2ft over, 2nd arrow 2ft low 3rd arrow in the target, I learned. I didn't shoot any kind of conscious gap until I moved to Canada and was forced to change bow styles because of injury but even back then I knew what point on was, 50yds, and I knew how low to hold for less than that or how high to hold for more so this contest is apples Vs apples really, you are both gapping but in different ways.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Oh ye of little faith


Matt_Potter said:


> Betcha switch back to gap 3 targets in.
> 
> Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

We always shoot from the long stakes. There are no Trad stake in So Ca. Where men are men 
Gary
s


Bender said:


> You booth need to shoot from the long stakes.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Yes it has Ben said that gapping is more accurate and all of the NFAA records were shot gapping. But there is a 101yd target so I am going to need a little coaching from a 100 yd point on guy how to hit that target


BLACK WOLF said:


> Hmmmm....you guys should have fun with this...but it also could get frustrating.
> 
> I'm curious...has anyone really said a particular aiming technique is 'the best'...or have people just stated the general advanatages and disadvantages to them under specific circumstances like I try to explain?
> 
> Ray :shade:


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Dang Gary, It's not looking good for you for Sunday.
Don.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Look at the Poll not sure it's a done deal yet


sharpbroadhead said:


> Why not take an instinctive guy on the forum - say - me - and the guy who has made the most videos on how to gap shoot - say RangerB and put us on the range together and see who shoots better - oh - wait - that has happened several times and we shoot at the same level - so it is a draw - done deal.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Bigjono - your are foolish if you think that there is no such thing as instinctive shooting or aiming - tell me - how is this guy aiming:






What is he "gapping"?

How about this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEvSZPfbYZ0

Oh - wait - if the bow is in front of you - that means that you are not shooting instinctive - give me a break - it is just silly to claim that there is no such thing as instinctive shooting.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I could shoot my compound do you think that would help?


zestycj7 said:


> Dang Gary, It's not looking good for you for Sunday.
> Don.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

2413gary said:


> Look at the Poll not sure it's a done deal yet


The reality is in the scores - not on an imaginary poll


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here is reality:

Ken Busalacchi Instinctive Shooter---------------------------------------------------Jimmy Blackmon Gap Shooter


2011 Traditional Worlds--------------------------------------------------------------2011 Traditional Worlds
531 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 515

-------------------------- (2011 Trad Worlds Point difference 16 in favor of instinctive shooter)---------------------------


2011 NFAA Indoor Nationals---------------------------------------------------------2011 Indoor Nationals
523----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 537

---------------------------------------- (2011 NFAA Nationals point difference 14 in favor of gap shooter)-----------------------



Looks about as equal as one can get if you ask me


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

Best system I believe is the pick a point method. Now I'm talking strictly for target that is. I learned it from in my opinion the best now hunter of all time Jim brown. Still holds the Fresno safari record with a 1248. A bullseye and a kill at every target for two days of shooting is a 1260. Incredible score with no sites. Best I could muster is a 1231. And I was shooting lights out. Jim was the best. In closing I think pick a point is the best aiming method in the bow hunter division


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I don't have time to respond I have to go practice my gaps. On the other hand Gary doesn't have to practice because shooting instinctive (subconsciously):fencing:
Sandy


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

another ridiculous idea that doing something subconsciously does not require practice - the subconscious mind learns as well as the conscious - and the more you do anything the better you get at it - even animals that no one questions act on instinct get better at things the more that they do them - ever hear of honing ones instincts?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

j. Wesbrock said:


> will there be a "shoot from behind your back at a thrown potato" event? I hear that's the real benchmark of accuracy.



:lol3:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

David,

Was Jim Brown that fellow who used to shoot for Bear Archery in the early 90s?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I've got a good scenario let's put someone on a 3-D course let's say me who is a gapper against someone that is the father of all instinctive shooters and let's see who has the highest score....oh wait that s already happened and guess which method prevailed as the best???


Just poking at ya.

Don't blast me too hard.

Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

One better - VAbowdog - lets put me and you on the same 3D course and see what happens - oh wait that happened - who came out on top - LOL


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

You came out on top twice...once at my very first major 3-d and yes that's no excuse but it's all I got and the 2nd year was my second year of competition which I tied with you a 531 and you beat me only by 1 X.....the first year I finished 18 th the second I was 5 th and you was 4 th so in theory I got MUCH better you didn't...but I've beat someone that you've never beat before.


Dewayne


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Here is reality:
> 
> Ken Busalacchi Instinctive Shooter---------------------------------------------------Jimmy Blackmon Gap Shooter
> 
> ...


I heard its easy for people to see the point one wants to make in a graph or pie chart.

Please put this data in a graph or pie chart if you really want to sway peoples opinions


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The reality is in the scores - not on an imaginary poll


Sharp you got to have faith I'm a pretty good instinctive shooter. I do believe there is an instinctive form of shooting very much like you do. I think I can pull this off
Gary


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

va - I was not trying to claim I was better than you - rather that we shoot at the same level


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I know Ken, I'm just in a bustin ya chops kinda mood.

Take care and good luck hunting this year...so far I've passed up 4 does and 2 button bucks...seen a nice 9 pointer last night at 39 yards and couldn't bring myself to try and shoot that far.

Dewayne


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp,
I was only kidding around with Gary. :wink:
Sandy


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Bigjono - your are foolish if you think that there is no such thing as instinctive shooting or aiming - tell me - how is this guy aiming:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The are both shooting from experiences learned.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Well, SharpB.......I was intrigued by this from you:



> I also noticed that if I shoot out of a ground blind I tend to shoot very low - it takes practice for me to get used to shooting in a ground blind - the reason - my peripheral vision is blocked and my brain is not getting accurate feedback as to how far away the target is - this is actually PROOF that I am not aiming at a conscious level - if I aimed at a conscious level - a 20 yard shot is a 20 yard shot - regardless of whether or not I have peripheral vision feedback - but the fact that my brain uses this feedback at a subconscious level is proof that I am not consciously aiming - to anyone willing to think about it.


This, especially, stuck out: "...*this is actually PROOF that I am not aiming at a conscious level*." 

No.....it's not.

You are making the mistake of equating "peripheral" with "subconscious."

In reality, your conscious mind uses your peripheral vision to help you determine how to aim.

It's as simple as that.

Since most of your peripheral vision is blocked in the ground blind, your brain (the conscious brain that is doing the aiming) is not getting the usual information--so you shoot badly.

Hardly subconscious, hardly a mystery......and easy to figure out.

The part that's hard to figure out is--how all this can work so well outside the ground blind and how can people shoot so well without sights?

It's not hard to figure out why there are so many conflicting ideas about how it happens, though. People are just contrary.

:wink:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

The only ridiculous idea is that anyone aims purely instinctively. To claim that you would either be a liar or a fool. From what I can gather you are not the former and I would never call you such without proof, so the latter must fit. If it is learned and practiced it's not an instinct anymore. Go outside and shoot your bow at a target 100-120yds away. I doubt you will hit it first arrow but I bet you hit it within 6, why, because the first shot was on instinct because your brain isn't used to that picture. After a few goes your brain will figure out the gap it needs to hit that target, hence, learned gap no longer instinct.
I don't think anyone on here questions you ability or record, it is there to see but keep throwing names up to try and prove things and you will end up eating crow my man. Your hero RW never bigs himself up but came back and put himself on the line this year, kudos to him. He shot well and I was really keen to watch him but others have moved on and shoot better now, doesn't make him a bad shot but does make him a stand up guy for putting it on the line.





sharpbroadhead said:


> another ridiculous idea that doing something subconsciously does not require practice - the subconscious mind learns as well as the conscious - and the more you do anything the better you get at it - even animals that no one questions act on instinct get better at things the more that they do them - ever hear of honing ones instincts?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Bender said:


> You booth need to shoot from the long stakes.


Bender,
I always shoot from the same stakes as Gary. There are no different stakes for the women. In fact, I was shocked the first time I went to a trad shoot to find that women shoot from a closer stake. 
Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> Oh ye of little faith


OK let me rephrase - you will start cheating/gapping once Sandy starts beating you with your own diaper

Matt


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

2413gary said:


> In fact, I was shocked the first time I went to a trad shoot to find that women shoot from a closer stake.
> Sandy


did you inform them where they could shove their women's stake?


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

2413gary said:


> I could shoot my compound do you think that would help?


Gary, 
Only shoot your compound if you enter that senior class, I have to at least have 1/2 a chance in the adult class.
This is going to be my first big shoot shooting left handed...:wink:
Don.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BarneySlayer said:


> did you inform them where they could shove their women's stake?


Gotta say the women's stake really pisses my daughter off.

Matt


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> The only ridiculous idea is that anyone aims purely instinctively.


Exactly.......and the totally ludicrous idea is that we shoot "subconsciously."

I want to see them hit something with a blindfold on.

:banana:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Dave one thing you don't understand is that the shooters back east think pick a point is gapping hope this helps. its a long story next time I see ya I'll explain.


davidcamacho said:


> Best system I believe is the pick a point method. Now I'm talking strictly for target that is. I learned it from in my opinion the best now hunter of all time Jim brown. Still holds the Fresno safari record with a 1248. A bullseye and a kill at every target for two days of shooting is a 1260. Incredible score with no sites. Best I could muster is a 1231. And I was shooting lights out. Jim was the best. In closing I think pick a point is the best aiming method in the bow hunter division


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Gotta say the women's stake really pisses my daughter off.
> 
> Matt


At our last Traditional shoot, we came to a target that was marked Par 2, par 3 for women and primitive. My fiancee said, "Screw that, I'm doing it in 2." She beat me on that target.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Logos - for one I think you are nothing but a troll - but for the sake of others I will make this simple - if you are consciously doing something - then you know how you are doing it and you know you are doing it - I do not consciously know how distances are triangulated by my subconscious - I do not consciously look at a target and try to determine distances - it happens at a level that is below my conscious level - it is instinct - now I am not going to play tit for tat with you - because I don't think you care to arive at the truth - you just like to argue - so keep at it with the others - but not me.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

BigJono - the problem lies with your erroneous belief that instinct is an unlearned behavior - the word instinct has more than one meaning and definition - just like the word "gay" does - if I were to say that so and so is gay - that could meant that they are homosexual or it could mean that they are happy - two different meanings.

Here is the definition of instinct from the Merrian Webster Medical Dictionary:


Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
2 : *behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level *

http://www2.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwmedsamp

Note the 2nd definition - and that is EXACTLY how I aim - I do not consciously use anything to aim my bow - I look at the spot I want to hit and everything else in the aim is done at a subconscious level - and this crap about Rick Welch being my hero is getting old - I like Rick, he is a nice guy and helped me with my shooting - he is a very well known and very good instinctive shot that has helped a great many people become great instinctive shots - that does not mean he is my hero - so stop that crap - it is ridiculous and childish!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Logos - for one I think you are nothing but a troll - but for the sake of others I will make this simple - if you are consciously doing something - then you know how you are doing it and you know you are doing it - I do not consciously know how distances are triangulated by my subconscious - I do not consciously look at a target and try to determine distances - it happens at a level that is below my conscious level - it is instinct - now I am not going to play tit for tat with you - because I don't think you care to arive at the truth - you just like to argue - so keep at it with the others - but not me.


I agree with everything you're saying here but one... and that is your view of the word "instinct" unless instinct can be applied to learned repetive accounting.

Aloha... :beer:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Logos said:


> I want to see them hit something with a blindfold on.
> 
> :banana:


I'll work on that video for you


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp I think what happens is when we shoot an arrow a lot like we do our brain see the arc of the arrow. our subconscious remembers this so our conscious mind dosen't have to. once it see's this arc it never forgets what it looks like. so my subconscious aims the arrow for me. now when I change from compound to recurve I need to shoot 20 or 30 arrows and then the memory of what I have practiced takes over and right in the middle life is good.
Gary


sharpbroadhead said:


> Logos - for one I think you are nothing but a troll - but for the sake of others I will make this simple - if you are consciously doing something - then you know how you are doing it and you know you are doing it - I do not consciously know how distances are triangulated by my subconscious - I do not consciously look at a target and try to determine distances - it happens at a level that is below my conscious level - it is instinct - now I am not going to play tit for tat with you - because I don't think you care to arive at the truth - you just like to argue - so keep at it with the others - but not me.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

gary - I agree - I never claimed instinctive was magic - it is the subconscious brain doing the aiming - the difference is that I can honestly tell you, that I have never paid consicous attention to distance, the arrow, the gap, the bow, anything - my entire conscious attention is on one thing and one thing only - what I want to hit - the rest is done at a subconscious level.

The actually aiming is simple and can happen very fast - what takes time to learn is a consistent form that allows you to shoot the arrow at the same speed everytime you shoot and allows for the same torgue on the bow and string shot after shot - once the form is consistent - the subconscios can easily get the arrow where you want it to go in a very short amount of time.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> did you inform them where they could shove their women's stake?


Not exactly, but I did wonder if they thought the women's bows would not shoot as far as the men's bows and we are talking, nothing past 30 yards. Wow! When I choose to shoot in a tournament I must play by the rules specified, by the host organization; NFAA, IFAA, NAA, CBH/SAA, FITA. in this case our scientific study; have fun while shooting and teasing my mentor Gary while doing so.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I wasn't too happy about it either.
Sandy


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Sharp I think what happens is when we shoot an arrow a lot like we do our brain see the arc of the arrow. our subconscious remembers this so our conscious mind dosen't have to. once it see's this arc it never forgets what it looks like. so my subconscious aims the arrow for me. now when I change from compound to recurve I need to shoot 20 or 30 arrows and then the memory of what I have practiced takes over and right in the middle life is good.
> Gary


And you wonder why target panic sets in. C'mon Gary, just shoot and let all the others run it around in their brain about why and how it is that they are able to hit the target. Just like other posts on here about pick-a-point being the best aiming method when It is a fact that gap shooters have been the most successful target shooters of all time.I could say hunting also, but that is to subjective to argue over.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

The Poll's are tightening !!!!!!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

My target panic is gone and I know gapping is the best so I have a big hill to climb Sunday


itbeso said:


> And you wonder why target panic sets in. C'mon Gary, just shoot and let all the others run it around in their brain about why and how it is that they are able to hit the target. Just like other posts on here about pick-a-point being the best aiming method when It is a fact that gap shooters have been the most successful target shooters of all time.I could say hunting also, but that is to subjective to argue over.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I will make this simple - if you are consciously doing something - then you know how you are doing it and you know you are doing it - I do not consciously know how distances are triangulated by my subconscious - I do not consciously look at a target and try to determine distances - it happens at a level that is below my conscious level - it is instinct -


"Instinct" is defined as behavior that is NOT LEARNED. Meaning it is INNATE. You are born that way.

The aiming that you do is LEARNED. You were not born with that skill. You learned it. Therefore it is NOT instinctive.

As to it being subconscious......no, you are consciously adjusting your sight picture to be just a certain way.

If you don't believe me, close your eyes and try it--see..........do you see it now? You are using conscious aiming not subconscious. If it were subconscious, the blindfold would not make a difference.

What you are calling "subconscious" is simply your normal vision (peripheral vision plus focused vision) and the natural function of your brain--you don't think about it or understand it, but it happens automatically and combines with the conscious level of thinking to send your arrow in the right direction.

Now, I accept that you think I just want to argue and you think I'm a troll, so I don't expect you to agree with me, but maybe someday you will.

:thumbs_up


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> My target panic is gone and I know gapping is the best so I have a big hill to climb Sunday


3 targets max - LOL

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Logos said:


> "Instinct" is defined as behavior that is NOT LEARNED. Meaning it is INNATE. You are born that way.
> 
> The aiming that you do is LEARNED. You were not born with that skill. You learned it. Therefore it is NOT instinctive.
> 
> ...


Logos, I too think you are a troll, but, after this post I can see that you are an occasionally perceptive troll. I feel the same way about Kens' method of shooting, It's just that he has everyone else arguing with him, I didn't want to add to the horde and noone, And I mean noone, is going to make him see the light.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

2413gary said:


> The Poll's are tightening !!!!!!


Hahahaha.... that's what we need... a burst of hope and enthusiasm.... :grin:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Hahahaha.... that's what we need... a burst of hope and enthusiasm.... :grin:


Rat, what you and others don't understand here is that Gary is taking bets on the winner. Whoever gets the most action will :mg:lose, the money still stays in the family. He is a pretty fart smeller.:mg:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Gary,
I am going to practice, bye
Your loving wife


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Rat, what you and others don't understand here is that Gary is taking bets on the winner. Whoever gets the most action will :mg:lose, the money still stays in the family. He is a pretty fart smeller.:mg:


More intelligent than logos... yer saying... :grin:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

What you guys may not understand is Sandy's half is bigger unless Of courceI win


itbeso said:


> Rat, what you and others don't understand here is that Gary is taking bets on the winner. Whoever gets the most action will :mg:lose, the money still stays in the family. He is a pretty fart smeller.:mg:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

No respect you could at least give me the benifit of the more than half of the targets will be under my point. and that diaper thing thats just nasty
Gary


Matt_Potter said:


> 3 targets max - LOL
> 
> Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> No respect you could at least give me the benifit of the more than half of the targets will be under my point. and that diaper thing thats just nasty
> Gary


Nobody has trotted out the name Rodney yet either.

Matt


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Matt,

So the over/under is three? I'll take the over. 

(thinking five at most)


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Using the word Hero was not meant to be a negative for you or Rick. You have put him up as the god of all things instinctive many times so I figured you held him in very high regard. He was and is a great shooter no one questions that but like you, I think he is in denial about the method of aiming he uses, that's all. It doesn't change his record or anything, I just think his and your method worked really well but the new guys have shown a better way now. I hope you make it to the indoor or trad worlds next year, I would love to watch you shoot in person and learn some stuff from you but there will no doubt be a few guys there very keen on going up against you after this.





sharpbroadhead said:


> BigJono - the problem lies with your erroneous belief that instinct is an unlearned behavior - the word instinct has more than one meaning and definition - just like the word "gay" does - if I were to say that so and so is gay - that could meant that they are homosexual or it could mean that they are happy - two different meanings.
> 
> Here is the definition of instinct from the Merrian Webster Medical Dictionary:
> 
> ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Isn't it amazing that people like Ibetso and this troll Logos will just ignore dictionary definitions that they don't like - once again - from the Merriam Webster's Medical Dictionary:

Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level 

note the 2nd defition - here it is in big bold letters:

*behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level * 

Where does it say anything in that definition anything about it being unlearned?

The 2nd definition says simply that it is behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level - when I aim my bow - the behavior of estimating distance, holding the bow in the proper place for the arrow to go where it needs to go, the claculations of windage and elevation, etc... are all mediated by reactions below the conscious level - all I consciously do is desire to hit that spot and concentrate on it - the entire aim is done subconsciously


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

BiJono - I have not held anyone up as a god of anything - so stop putting words in my mouth - it is childish. I have stated many times that I don't agree with Welch's approach to tuning, that I think his release is unique to him and not good for others to try to do, etc... - If I held him up as a "god" i would agree with everything he does.

I have simply stated the fact that he is a top level instinctive shooter that has taught others to shoot instinctively and many of his students have went on to become champions as well - those are facts not holding somone up as a god - so stop this stupid childish crap


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

The most irritating thing about this debate is that relatively few people understand the neuroscience of learned and unconscious behavior (I consider myself one of these though I likely have far more neuroscience education that most people with an undergrad degree), and I really think it comes down to semantics. "Instinctive" is likely a term coined when unconscious learning wasn't as understood as it is now, yet by sharp's definition, I don't disagree with him.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I'm going to beat her like a base drum they will be talkin about this win for years to come


J. Wesbrock said:


> Matt,
> 
> So the over/under is three? I'll take the over.
> 
> (thinking five at most)


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

You know of all the aiming methods whether it's instinctive,gap,string walking,split vision or whatever the archer is still the most important piece of that puzzle.....if the archer doesn't execute the shot then nothing else matters.I've shot split vision,point of aim,gap,instinctive and I AM THE MOST IMPORTANT PEICE OF THAT PUZZLE....nothing else,not the inches above or below,the sub conscience,or the split visioned arrow on top of the other....I'm the most important,without me doing my job it's a mess at best.


Dewayne martin


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

va - yes the form is the most important part of any shot - and then the aim - and the job of the aim - is just different for differnet styles - for the instinctive the only job I have regarding the aim is to focus on my spot and keep looking at it until after the shot is complete and the arrow has impacted the target - my "job" is to surrender the shot to the subconscious and not let the conscious interfere with the shot - as an example - if I consciously think that a shot is far - I will usually end up shooting high - if I consciously worry about hitting a twig - I will amost certainly hit that twig - my conscious attention must be on one and only one thing - what I want to hit.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> I'm going to beat her like a base drum they will be talkin about this win for years to come


You go Rodney - WHOOP - on that woman

Damn this is fun - what were we talking about - oh that's right instinctive aiming - are we done yet??

Matt


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

CFGuy said:


> The most irritating thing about this debate is that relatively few people understand the neuroscience of learned and unconscious behavior (I consider myself one of these though I likely have far more neuroscience education that most people with an undergrad degree), *and I really think it comes down to semantics. *"Instinctive" is likely a term coined when unconscious learning wasn't as understood as it is now, yet by sharp's definition, I don't disagree with him.


This is mostly true, as the vernacular has somewhat polluted the usage of the word.

But...... "Instinctive" was an unfortunate choice of words to name this aiming style because it probably just adds to the confusion.

Which is why I call it "Natural Point and Shoot" or just natural aiming.

:wave3:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Are we done yet ? this will not be over till Jesus comes back


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Isn't it amazing that people like Ibetso and this troll Logos will just ignore dictionary definitions that they don't like - once again - from the Merriam Webster's Medical Dictionary:
> 
> Main Entry: in·stinct
> Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
> ...


This would be the first time that I have heard you say/admit/articulate that "learning" had anything to do with your definition of instinctive... other than my earlier agreement with you on how we shoot.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Yes but, at least we have a new disciple giving us the word from on high

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rattus - then you have not been listening - I have never changed one thing on what I have said on what instictive shooting is and how I do it.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> rattus - then you have not been listening - I have never changed one thing on what I have said on what instictive shooting is and how I do it.


thats very possible. I just *don't recall you saying that your shooting experiences were learned and catalogued* to be offered by your subconscious when required.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey Guys,
Ust came in for a break and wasn't sure i was on the sane orginal site. This is like being at a fun party and some guys just want to talk shop. Sharp & Logos needs to take their arguing outside. Start their own Thread called "FOR GUYS & GIRLS WHO JUST WANT TO ARGUE". Then it would be fair game on any subject. Just don't be party crashers.
Sandy


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

CFGuy said:


> The most irritating thing about this debate is that relatively few people understand the neuroscience of learned and unconscious behavior (I consider myself one of these though I likely have far more neuroscience education that most people with an undergrad degree), and I really think it comes down to semantics. "Instinctive" is likely a term coined when unconscious learning wasn't as understood as it is now, yet by sharp's definition, I don't disagree with him.


Before compounds made conventional archery "trad", it only meant "aiming without sights". Only in the last 15 years or so have people found it somehow necessary to fight about how subconscious their aiming method is (or isn't) for whatever their reasons may be.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Are you kidding me Gary take a look a the thread list Sharp has 3 aiming threads and a small buck thread the man is in heaven - we just need to get Ray and Forest into the mix.

Hay - in Vegas can you pick single spot or does everyone have to shot 3 spot? - if you shoot 3 spot is it that wacky triangular target and is there a set height off the ground that they set targets - I need to practice burning a spot.

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Robert - I don't care how anyone aims - - and I KNOW how I aim - and that is at a subconscious level - the disagareement and arguments happen when someone else tells me I am not aiming the way that I KNOW I am.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> You go Rodney - WHOOP - on that woman
> 
> Damn this is fun - what were we talking about - oh that's right instinctive aiming - are we done yet??
> 
> Matt


Matt keep it up, I think He is weakening! :toothy2::grin:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - speaking of the small buck thread - did you see the buck Hoyt shot - very nice animal - not huge - but a dang nice buck and check out the hole that the simmons put in it!

BTW - I just checked one of my cams and got a pic of a nice 10 pointer - going for him in about 1/2 an hour as soon as I can leave work - first pic of a decent buck this year - now I am excited!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Are you trying to incite the fairer sex here Matt, because if you are, remember what my chiropodist said, "hell hath no fury like a womans corn", at least I think that's what we said but I was only listening subconsciously 





Matt_Potter said:


> You go Rodney - WHOOP - on that woman
> 
> Damn this is fun - what were we talking about - oh that's right instinctive aiming - are we done yet??
> 
> Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Are we done yet ? this will not be over till Jesus comes back


:rapture:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Matt_Potter said:


> - in Vegas can you pick single spot or does everyone have to shot 3 spot? -
> 
> Matt


Last year I read the trad shooters were allowed to choose - I don't know about barebow, though.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Matt_Potter said:


> You go Rodney - WHOOP - on that woman
> 
> Damn this is fun - what were we talking about - oh that's right instinctive aiming - are we done yet??
> 
> Matt


Are we done yet?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Matt - speaking of the small buck thread - did you see the buck Hoyt shot - very nice animal - not huge - but a dang nice buck and check out the hole that the simmons put in it!
> 
> BTW - I just checked one of my cams and got a pic of a nice 10 pointer - going for him in about 1/2 an hour as soon as I can leave work - first pic of a decent buck this year - now I am excited!


Sort of got done with that thread but, I'll go look - I'm done till Friday and the elk are winding down time to start thinking deer.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

single spot is ok


Matt_Potter said:


> Are you kidding me Gary take a look a the thread list Sharp has 3 aiming threads and a small buck thread the man is in heaven - we just need to get Ray and Forest into the mix.
> 
> Hay - in Vegas can you pick single spot or does everyone have to shot 3 spot? - if you shoot 3 spot is it that wacky triangular target and is there a set height off the ground that they set targets - I need to practice burning a spot.
> 
> Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> single spot is ok


So the question is how tight are your groups - LOL

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I'm sure he was driving instinctively


J. Wesbrock said:


> Are we done yet?


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Robert - I don't care how anyone aims - - and I KNOW how I aim - and that is at a subconscious level - the disagareement and arguments happen when someone else tells me I am not aiming the way that I KNOW I am.


We all stand there with an arrow right in front of our face at full draw. If or how you or anyone else decides to use this when they aim is something only the guy holding the bow will ever know for sure. I think everyone that shoots barebow should start calling their aiming method "instinctive" no matter what they see or don't see or think or feel or calculate or imagine and then maybe all the bickering would finally stop. Man, bow, arrow. Aim and shoot and may the best shot win. The end. 

But it's a pipe dream, I know.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

Matt_Potter said:


> So the question is how tight are your groups - LOL
> 
> Matt


Yeah. It's good if you bring enough extra arrows and nocks.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

single spot has a 1 ring 3 spot only goes down to 7 ring not saying you will need it but it's there


Matt_Potter said:


> So the question is how tight are your groups - LOL
> 
> Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

2413gary said:


> I'm sure he was driving instinctively


That's for sure or he would have gapped his way through the cars
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Gary,
I need a name (be nice everyone) then I would not have to use your sign in name. It is probably confusing as in gap and instinctive when I post something. Is this Gary or Sandy?


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

You should have a name! But I can tell your posts apart - Gary is an instinctive speller.:wave3:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

subconscious is a hard wood to spell


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

2413gary said:


> Gary,
> I need a name (be nice everyone) then I would not have to use your sign in name. It is probably confusing as in gap and instinctive when I post something. Is this Gary or Sandy?


Hey.... we understand he might have a feminine side.... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

2413gary said:


> subconscious is a hard wood to spell


hahahaha.... not as hard as word.... or was it... :grin:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's a new one, "subconsciouslessness".


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## AngelDeVille (May 9, 2012)

I still don't know what either of them is, I just hit the target.... don't care how or why....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Gary,

When you are gap shooting under 30 yds, how much difference is there in your gaps from 5yds on out?

Curious minds and all,

Grant


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Arrowwood said:


> Here's a new one, "subconsciouslessness".


subclueless :wink:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I can't tell you then it wouldn't be instinctive you tryin to trick me ?
Gary


grantmac said:


> Gary,
> 
> When you are gap shooting under 30 yds, how much difference is there in your gaps from 5yds on out?
> 
> ...


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

2413gary said:


> I can't tell you.
> Gary


Yup.

:banana:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Grant it would be just like if you had a 45 yd point and 325gr arrow 195 fps (my set up)and were still string walking. All you would have to do is measure how far down for 30 yds should be 1/2" and so on for each yardage all this would also change if you didn't anchor the same as me. As I am sure you know it's all relevant to how close the arrow is to your eye on how tight your gaps could be. So if you were to measure all of your crawls that would be your gaps. 8 to 9 yds and in I call a stink bug shot I shot a lot of bugs before I got my first hunting license 
Gary


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

2413gary said:


> Grant it would be just like if you had a 45 yd point and 325gr arrow 195 fps (my set up)and were still string walking. All you would have to do is measure how far down for 30 yds should be 1/2" and so on for each yardage all this would also change if you didn't anchor the same as me. As I am sure you know it's all relevant to how close the arrow is to your eye on how tight your gaps could be. So if you were to measure all of your crawls that would be your gaps. 8 to 9 yds and in I call a stink bug shot I shot a lot of bugs before I got my first hunting license
> Gary


I don't think it would be like stringwalking, because that always has you right at your far zero. The arrow is never rising relative to your line of sight when you are at the correct crawl for the distance. When gap shooting there are a range of distances where you are shooting with the very top of the arch of the arrows flight, makes it so you can shoot basically the same gap for a wide variety of ranges.

When I gap (similar set-up to you, little further PO) I find that my gaps hold damn near the same from 15 to 30 yds. Just wondering if you noticed the same thing. Its part of my theory as to why some people don't bother judging distance, they just shoot it all for the same distance and at the distance they shoot that is all that is required.

-Grant


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Grant. When I gap 3D I just have 3 gaps short medium and far - set the gap and let the brain take over. 

The instinctive guys are doing the same thing on the close shots the don't think about it they just set their bow hand microscopically lower on the long stuff just a touch higher. 

I believe sharp when he says he doesn't thing about it but, that doesn't meen he isn't doing it. 

Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ooops
Matt


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

grantmac said:


> I don't think it would be like stringwalking, because that always has you right at your far zero. The arrow is never rising relative to your line of sight when you are at the correct crawl for the distance. When gap shooting there are a range of distances where you are shooting with the very top of the arch of the arrows flight, makes it so you can shoot basically the same gap for a wide variety of ranges.
> 
> When I gap (similar set-up to you, little further PO) I find that my gaps hold damn near the same from 15 to 30 yds. Just wondering if you noticed the same thing. Its part of my theory as to why some people don't bother judging distance, they just shoot it all for the same distance and at the distance they shoot that is all that is required.
> 
> -Grant


I'm point in at 30. I have to gap on anything shorter or longer. If I shoot a 20 with the same picture as 30, I'll miss quite high. I don't know any way to keep a bow on target with one sight picture from 15 to 30 in sub-300 fps velocities and even that would have serious variations high and/or low over that range span. Maybe there's some interesting trick you use for your setup. If be interested in knowing how you can set up for one-sight-fits-all 15 to 30. I wish my bow could do that but at around only 200 fps, it ain't happening.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

If you get your arrow just a little closer to your eye it will change between 15 and 30 about 1/8" 
Gary


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Robert your point on needs to be about 45 yds to make 15 to 30 about the same. It all is relevant to the arc of the arrow and how close the arrow is to your eye and the length of the arrow. But it can be done. 
Gary


Robert Williams said:


> I'm point in at 30. I have to gap on anything shorter or longer. If I shoot a 20 with the same picture as 30, I'll miss quite high. I don't know any way to keep a bow on target with one sight picture from 15 to 30 in sub-300 fps velocities and even that would have serious variations high and/or low over that range span. Maybe there's some interesting trick you use for your setup. If be interested in knowing how you can set up for one-sight-fits-all 15 to 30. I wish my bow could do that but at around only 200 fps, it ain't happening.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

agrees 100% with Robert Williams - there is no way in hell that one can use the same gap for 15 and 30 yards - grant has been trying to claim this for years - and it is bunk - a bow with an arrow traveling 200 fps would drop over 20 inches if you used the gap for 15 yards at 30 yards - any archery ballistics calculator can show this.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> agrees 100% with Robert Williams - there is no way in hell that one can use the same gap for 15 and 30 yards - grant has been trying to claim this for years - and it is bunk - a bow with an arrow traveling 200 fps would drop over 20 inches if you used the gap for 15 yards at 30 yards - any archery ballistics calculator can show this.


That's about right. I was guessing 15 to 20 inches but didn't look it up. I'm thinking that if you have a point on around 40, it could be a big enough gap that it might look somewhat similar 15 to 30 but it won't be. If grant is right, he couldn't miss high or low on any IBO 3D target at 30 max and those high and low are the bane of even the best archers at unmarked distance. Shoot a 30 with the same gap as 15 and you are looking for an arrow way past a large caribou target while everyone else in the group shuffles around waiting.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

It is just such a stupid thing to say - there are guys with 280 + fps compound and if they used the same sight on a 15 yard shot as a 30 yard shot they would miss by 10 inches low - it is just ridiculous to claim that the gap is the same - he has been saying this nonsense for years - claiming that instinctive shooters like myself are just using the same gap out to 30 yards at IBO type shoots - and this is ridiculous - first of all - I don't even know any gaps - let alone what is 15 yards and what is 30 yards - 2nd - this is simple math - if you hold the bow at the same angle for a 15 yard shot and a 30 yard shot - the 30 yard shot is going to be 20 inches low with a 200 fps bow.

These are the people that I used to bang my head against a wall trying to explain instinctive shooting to- is it any wonder they don't get it?


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> It is just such a stupid thing to say - there are guys with 280 + fps compound and if they used the same sight on a 15 yard shot as a 30 yard shot they would miss by 10 inches low - it is just ridiculous to claim that the gap is the same - he has been saying this nonsense for years - claiming that instinctive shooters like myself are just using the same gap out to 30 yards at IBO type shoots - and this is ridiculous - first of all - I don't even know any gaps - let alone what is 15 yards and what is 30 yards - 2nd - this is simple math - if you hold the bow at the same angle for a 15 yard shot and a 30 yard shot - the 30 yard shot is going to be 20 inches low with a 200 fps bow.
> 
> These are the people that I used to bang my head against a wall trying to explain instinctive shooting to- is it any wonder they don't get it?


I used to shoot just like you do. Until I was asked how I aimed I never really thought about what I was seeing. So I started analyzing it and found it was just a conditioned gap. I still shoot that way quite a bit but I know it's a sort of gap shooting I do and now if I want I can be very deliberate with it. But never did I get some sense that 15 to.30 shot the same. You've got a lot more drop at 30 than 15 or even 20. The distance and adjustment for it is something you must get VERY good at if you don't like chasing arrows.

I'm reluctant to call anyone's explanation if what they see "stupid" ,though. I don't understand how he could perceive no difference between 15 and 30 but somehow that's what he thinks he sees. I don't get it but I'm not looking through his eyes and maybe just don't understand what he's trying to say. Who knows?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Well that might be how you shot -but it is not how I shoot - I do not pay any attention to any gap at all - and if I give any conscious thought to the distance - or if I do "see" the arrow when I am supposed to be concentrating on the spot I want to hit - it is a guarantee of a bad shot


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am sure that at a subconscious level - my brain sees the bow, the bow hand, the arrow - but at a conscious level I do not. 

Let me explain - do you remember the first time your bought a new car? Do your remember how suddenly you see that same type and color of car almost everytime you go somewhere after buying that car? Did those cars suddenly appear right after you bought yours? Hardly - they were there all along - but you had no reason to notice them - but when you bought the new car - it was on your conscious mind - you were excited about it - it was important to you - suddenly - every time your subconscious sees this car that your conscious mind is so excited about and thinking about so much - it brings it to your conscious attention everytime it sees one. Prior to buying that new car your subconscious saw those cars, but there was no reason to bring them to your conscious attention - they were "filtered out"


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Ok here is the part Robert and Sharp don't understand you are gapping at the target yes your gaps are huge. If you gap at the arrow it can be as little as 3/16" between 20 and 30yds if your arrow is fast enough. At the world Trads this year my gaps between 15 and 30 yds was only 1/8" difference. Then you ask why I didn't win ? Some times we choke. It works the same as a very tight pin gap for a compound shooter. When you know what to look for its right in front of you. When you quit aiming at the target and start aiming in the window of your it's a BIG WOW.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Well that might be how you shot -but it is not how I shoot - I do not pay any attention to any gap at all - and if I give any conscious thought to the distance - or if I do "see" the arrow when I am supposed to be concentrating on the spot I want to hit - it is a guarantee of a bad shot


I'll bet it was pretty similar. I didn't think yardage. I thought "that far" and I just knew the arc and shot by "feel". It either felt right or didn't. Only with a lot of analysis did I figure out that how the arrow aligned with the target gave me visual cues that I didn't think about but still used. I "didn't look at my arrow". But in retrospect, it was there and an important visual cue. So I came to realize there's nothing to be lost for me by consciously studying and refining it. Before that I might be dead nuts on a 27 trader on the first shot and might not be able to duplicate it or adjust with the second. It just expanded the possibilities for me. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm beginning to understand.......

I think I may even try to use this method!!!

Why did it take so long to convince me???



> 1 WITCH. Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
> 2 WITCH. Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin'd.
> 3 WITCH. Harpier cries:—'tis time! 'tis time!
> 1 WITCH. Round about the caldron go;
> ...


:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

gary there is no way - there is a 20" drop between 15 yards and 30 yards if you zero in a 200 fps bow at 15 yards and then shoot it 30 yards - so if your gap is only 3/16" of an inch difference between 15 yards and 30 yards - it would be impossible to even see a gap difference between say 15 yards and 22 yards - yet there is a enough difference that you would miss the entire target if you zeroed at 15 yars and then shot 22 yards wiht a 200 fps bow.

you don't even see that if what you are saying is true - you are making a case that you are actually shooting instinctive - because there would be no way to consciously see that small of a gap


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

2413gary said:


> Ok here is the part Robert and Sharp don't understand you are gapping at the target yes your gaps are huge. If you gap at the arrow it can be as little as 3/16" between 20 and 30yds if your arrow is fast enough. At the world Trads this year my gaps between 15 and 30 yds was only 1/8" difference. Then you ask why I didn't win ? Some times we choke. It works the same as a very tight pin gap for a compound shooter. When you know what to look for its right in front of you. When you quit aiming at the target and start aiming in the window of your it's a BIG WOW.


I'd bet a lot of those chokes were high and low. You can't beat the laws of physics and even if your gap between 15 and 30 LOOKS like 3/16 of an inch, you are off about 6 inches for each of those 3-16ths between 15 and 30, so "about the same is relative. 20 inches of shot placement difference worth of relative.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

guys - like I said in another thread - do not engage this Logos character - he is a troll and here to do nothing but start crap - just ignore him


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

You will never understand you are blinded by your ignorance as I have said before.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Yeah but you gotta admit that witch stuff was funny


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - yea - we are blinded by ignorance - it is an undeniable fact that if you zero in a 200 fps bow at 15 yards and then shoot it 30 yards in the same position - the 30 yard shot will be over 20 inches low - the only ones ignorant here are the people trying to claim that you can use the same gap for a 15 yard shot as a 30 yard shot - anyone who knows anything about archery knows this is ridiculous!


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Oops - Did Sharp just call Gary a liar?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sharp these guys are gaping at the bow - picture a 3 pin sight on your bow - the distance from the ten pin to the 20 pin is only 1/4 inch at the bow - for all intents and purposes this is the same sight picture - as you said you can't see a gap that small

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Rarely do I miss high or low it's left and right exploding release is what is call it


Robert Williams said:


> I'd bet a lot of those chokes were high and low. You can't beat the laws of physics and even if your gap between 15 and 30 LOOKS like 3/16 of an inch, you are off about 6 inches for each of those 3-16ths between 15 and 30, so "about the same is relative. 20 inches of shot placement difference worth of relative.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Arcus - we are talking about quantifiable facts here - if the difference in his gap is only 3/16" between 15 and 30 yards - there is no way he could consciously distingish the gap difference between a 15 yard shot and a 22 yard shot - yet if with a 200 fps bow he shot the same gap for a 15 yard shot as a 22 yard shot - he would miss by 7 inches, 23 yards 8.4 inches, 24 yards almost 10 inches


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

By the way, Gary.... Better luck next year at the championships. It always sucks when you don't shoot your best at a major shoot but it happens a lot.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - you to are missing my point - if it is the same sight picture for a 15 yard shot and a 30 yards shot - when if you held the bow the same for a 15 yard shot as a 30 yard shot you would miss by over 20 inches - get that 20 inches - if the sight picture looks the same to these guys - then they have to be shooting instinctively - they have to be subconsciously making the necessary adjustments to make up for that 20 inch miss

Funny how - when exposed - it appears that the belief that nobody is an instinctive shooter and everyone gaps is really the opposite - and nobody is really a gap shooter - everyone is an instinctive shooter - apparently this is going right over most guys heads


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

Matt_Potter said:


> Sharp these guys are gaping at the bow - picture a 3 pin sight on your bow - the distance from the ten pin to the 20 pin is only 1/4 inch at the bow - for all intents and purposes this is the same sight picture - as you said you can't see a gap that small
> 
> Matt


If that's what you are doing, then you'd better see the gap very well or You'll give up an awful lot of points. That 1/4 inch represents almost two feet of vertical shot placement.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp I meant logos was blind not you and Robert I know it's hard to believe but Matt gets it some day when we are at the same shoot I will show you how to see what I mean. Yes it is very much like the way you shoot instinctive but I see the difference because I am looking for it.
Gary


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sharp

We all shoot subconsciously we just aim differently. I watched Ben shoot this system in Spokane it is very effective


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Just trying to lighten things up.

I think some of you guys are just kidding around and you really just go out and let fly and hope for the best.......if not.....no big problem, there's always the next get-together.

:amen:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I see the gap very very well


Robert Williams said:


> If that's what you are doing, then you'd better see the gap very well or You'll give up an awful lot of points. That 1/4 inch represents almost two feet of vertical shot placement.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If you can see 1/16" gap - then you are one amazing shooter - if you can consciously hold your bow still enough to hold a gap of 1/16" - you should be an Olympic archer


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Funny how - when exposed - it appears that the believe that nobody is an instinctive shooter and everyone gaps is really the opposite - and nobody is really a gap shooter - everyone is an instinctive shooter - apparently this is going right over most guys heads


Used to be any shooting without sights was called "instinctive". Maybe if we started doing that again, we would all have to find something else to argue about. Ted nugent or crossbows or something.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you can see 1/16" gap - then you are one amazing shooter - if you can consciously hold your bow still enough to hold a gap of 1/16" - you should be an Olympic archer


Wait! What?

If you can see 1/16" gap - then you are one amazing shooter - if you can UN-consciously hold your bow still enough to hold a gap of 1/16" - you should be an Olympic archer.....

Or a Shaman or something.

I'm impressed.

Seriously.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Robert Williams said:


> If that's what you are doing, then you'd better see the gap very well or You'll give up an awful lot of points. That 1/4 inch represents almost two feet of vertical shot placement.


No I either string walk or I set my gaps at the arrow tip at 1/2 draw just can't see what those guys do but I have seen it work in spades and had it explained to me


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you can see 1/16" gap - then you are one amazing shooter - if you can consciously hold your bow still enough to hold a gap of 1/16" - you should be an Olympic archer


If you only have a 3/16 gap for 15 to 30 16, then you cant possibly expect to hit on the right horizontal line within a few inches. If your arrow drops 20 inches between 15 and 30 but you can't tell the difference, how can you make that arc intersect your bullseye except through sheer luck? You've GOT to be a Able to adjust the vertical windage and if it's same-same for you 15 to 3o, you can't. 

Ever shoot pool. You can't pocket a ball if you miss your cut angle by a 16ths of an inch and a pool stick is a lot longer than your arrow (or length from your eye to your riser). If you are tapping at the bow like a sight you need some really precise aiming for your vertical hold.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

Matt_Potter said:


> No I either string walk or I set my gaps at the arrow tip at 1/2 draw just can't see what those guys do but I have seen it work in spades and had it explained to me


Like pool. You work with very small perceived gaps. You do need to be able to perceive them, though. I gap at the arrow tip at full draw n point on is 30 and I better hold low with a much larger gap than 3/16 at 20 yards if I want to hit it. Come anywhere near point on and it's a really high shot at 20.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

for all these guys who beleive this bunk - get a yard stick and put it in front of you and point at it - see if you can hold 1/8", 1/16" or even 3/16" pointing your finger at it - and you are not even holding a 4lb bow in your hand this is just ridiculous


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> for all these guys who beleive this bunk - get a yard stick and put it in front of you and point at it - see if you can hold 1/8", 1/16" or even 3/16" pointing your finger at it - and you are not even holding a 4lb bow in your hand this is just ridiculous


You sure can when its a pin sight so why not without one? But then again, you e got to be generating some seriously high velocities to have 15 and 30 yard pins set 1/16 apart. 200 fps won't get it done.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp this is exactly what I am talking about you are right the gap is right in front of you but you are not looking for it so you don't see it.


sharpbroadhead said:


> I am sure that at a subconscious level - my brain sees the bow, the bow hand, the arrow - but at a conscious level I do not.
> 
> Let me explain - do you remember the first time your bought a new car? Do your remember how suddenly you see that same type and color of car almost everytime you go somewhere after buying that car? Did those cars suddenly appear right after you bought yours? Hardly - they were there all along - but you had no reason to notice them - but when you bought the new car - it was on your conscious mind - you were excited about it - it was important to you - suddenly - every time your subconscious sees this car that your conscious mind is so excited about and thinking about so much - it brings it to your conscious attention everytime it sees one. Prior to buying that new car your subconscious saw those cars, but there was no reason to bring them to your conscious attention - they were "filtered out"


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

You may beginning to understand don't get hung up on the 200fps


Robert Williams said:


> You sure can when its a pin sight so why not without one? But then again, you e got to be generating some seriously high velocities to have 15 and 30 yard pins set 1/16 apart. 200 fps won't get it done.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Once you get deeply into your subconscious......you can think the arrow to 225 fps or 250 fps.....whatever you need.

You just need to use the Force.

:wave:


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

2413gary said:


> You may beginning to understand don't get hung up on the 200fps


If I understand, then 3/16ths isn't "about the same" unless we also think 20 inches of vertical deviation is "about the same". Bottom line is that your 3/16 covers 20 inches. I know when I tried compounds and sights, I didn't consider three pins within 1/4 inch to be "about the same". Pick the wrong one and go chase an arrow.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sorry you can't understand It is hard for you to see what I see. Maybe some day we can talk face to face it will be easier to explain Gary


Robert Williams said:


> If I understand, then 3/16ths isn't "about the same" unless we also think 20 inches of vertical deviation is "about the same". Bottom line is that your 3/16 covers 20 inches. I know when I tried compounds and sights, I didn't consider three pins within 1/4 inch to be "about the same". Pick the wrong one and go chase an arrow.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Sandy I believe you and I have met. Perhaps at Redding? Anyway, I myself have never been to a Trad shoot that had seperate women's stakes. (Generally I and the folks I shoot with shoot from the grown up stakes unless its a Trad only event in which case EVERYTHING is short.) I was aghast when I first ever heard about some shoots having seperate stakes for women. I guess its done back East. I told my wife and several of my lady friends about this practice. The consensus is that its not a matter of the ladies just going ahead and shooting with the guys. If we ever show up and see such thing we're outta there. Not gonna give our money to a club, group, organization, whatever, that does that.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

2413gary said:


> Sorry you can't understand It is hard for you to see what I see. Maybe some day we can talk face to face it will be easier to explain Gary


Well, one thing is certain. If you can explain to me how to shoot one gap out to 30 yards dead nuts for every distance in between, I'm all ears. That's a slick trick.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

On internet: 3/16ths = 20 inches.

Face to face: 3/16ths = 20 inches.

Subconscious: 3/16ths = 20 inches

Instinctive: 3/16ths = 20 inches

20 inches too much.

Help!

:der::der::der:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

My 4 yard and my 40 yard are the same gap (1/8), my 11 and my 30 are close to the same (1/2). My 20 yard is 1 inch at the tip of the arrow. with my anchor, arrow length and FPS thats my gaps... so I cannot see how Gary's 15 and 30 being the same gap is so hard to believe. I think the misunderstanding is that everyone thinks it is the same from 15 yards all the way out through 30 yards... Not and keep it in the X.


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## barebowguy (Feb 1, 2009)

I have my money on Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ren you shoot the same system as Allen don't you - figure you gap off the riser and the move the tip to that point? 

I had a really eye opening dinner with Ben and Allen in Spokane where they explained and diagramed the different systems they used - yes even instinctive on the short bunnies

Matt


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Matt pretty much that system. I have experimented a bit using Itbeso's system also... shhh don't tell him. End up with my own system of mixed gapping.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

barebowguy said:


> I have my money on Sandy


Nah - he is going to WHOOP her by 2 points


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Logos said:


> Wait! What?
> 
> If you can see 1/16" gap - then you are one amazing shooter - if you can UN-consciously hold your bow still enough to hold a gap of 1/16" - you should be an Olympic archer.....
> 
> ...


You damn right you are as well you should be.


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## barebowguy (Feb 1, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Nah - he is going to WHOOP her by 2 points


Don't forget that would be a SoCal whoop


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Rsarns you get it they don't I am sure I could have explained it better. My gaps 45 point on 40yds 1/8" 35yds 3/8" 30yds 1/2" 25 yds 5/8" 20yds 5/8" here is the hard part for you guys 15yds 1/2" the same as 30 yds 1/2" so from 15 to 30 yds all I have to do is decide 1/2" or 5/8" or somewhere in between now what could that possibly be ? Well on my tape between is 9/16" that would be 27yds you seeing the picture yet. Most likely not. Sorry it works for me but remember it all comes down to anchor point arrow length and speed. 195fps. So is 1/8" easier to see in the sight window or 30" at the target 30 yards? I know this lesson is over. If your hungry I can feed you if not oh we'll . Thank you Rsarns and Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Gary, You opened up a can of worms here and you need to back off a little. You and I had this conversation a few months ago and I told you no way but you were insistent. There is no way the gap can only be off 1/8 inch between 10 and 30 yards. You know as well as I that every 5 yds is approx.3/16 to 1/4" gap and that is not negotiable unless you are shooting a really fast bow.And before Logos and Robert open their traps, yes I am an expert on THE gap system as I invented it in 1969 when I first started shooting. For that reason, gary, I'm telling you again, It isn't possible without doing the fo.lowing which may explain your poor showing in Tennessee. If you move the position of your head up or down you can change your gap for any yardage. I would suggest you pay attention to this form flaw to see if you do it. If you keep your down at the same angle everytime, then your gaps will be consistent in the range above.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Gary, You opened up a can of worms here and you need to back off a little. And before Logos and Robert open their traps,* yes I am an expert on THE gap system as I invented it* in 1969 when I first started shooting.


Me? Open my trap? Not likely.

I never question Al Gore about him inventing the internet and I sure wouldn't question you claiming to have invented the gap system.

In fact......congrats!!!!

:cheers:

(You get royalties on that?)


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Logos said:


> Me? Open my trap? Not likely.
> 
> I never question Al Gore about him inventing the internet and I sure wouldn't question you claiming to have invented the gap system.
> 
> ...


Only the first 17 years!


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Well done!

:cheers:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso explained it to me the other day and on trying I noticed an immediate improvement in my groups out to 40y, I need to try for a few more weeks to get really comfortable with this method, working very well with my Recurve 3 under but Longbow and split finger Im still more mentally comfortable just shooting split vision.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ill add that I havent got my gaps to 1/8" or anything that precise but they have been cut in half which is a great help to me,


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Just a thought here, folks, but wouldn't all this long-running and detailed discussion of specific holdovers at specific ranges, with both soon-to-be contestants reading and contributing to the discussion, constitute some sort of interferance with the integrity of the upcoming shoot... not to mention all the millions in sports-book wagering riding on it?

I mean, really: one contestant is shooting gap system, and is getting fed info here by the ton. The other contestant is shooting instinctive - and with all these last minute numbers floatin' in his sight picture while he's trying to focus on sight picture, well... that's just gotta confusing.

And after all, both contestants... well, somebody's gotta say it, since all this money is riding on the outcome: this just has to create an unfair advantage for Sandy!

I call fan interferance; all bets are off! 





(Joke, folks; just a joke... just me being a wise_____. I don't know either contestant personally, but have a lot of respect for their abilities. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out! Nothin' against you or your shooting, Gary, but I have to say Sandy'll take it, by a nose.)


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

steve morley said:


> Ill add that I havent got my gaps to 1/8" or anything that precise but they have been cut in half which is a great help to me,


The "gap size" isn't the incredible thing. 3/16 pin gap between 15 and 30 isn't strange. What is strange is the claim that since it is being asserted that it is too small to see, so one gap covers every shot you could encounter at an IBO shoot 15 to 30 yards. In other words. Distance and windage are no longer factors. 

That means that unless you drop your arm or collapse or perform some other horrific form error you can't miss high or low on any target between 15 and 30 yards. 

But if it works for you, take it to the worlds next year and it should give you an overwhelming advantage since that is within the range if virtually all the targets. It might not be as beneficial for field shoots but for 3D it eliminates big challenge; accurate distance estimation. (If it works as advertised, of course).


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

Logos said:


> Me? Open my trap? Not likely.
> 
> I never question Al Gore about him inventing the internet and I sure wouldn't question you claiming to have invented the gap system.
> 
> ...


Why bother responding? When someone acts like they've got a schoolgirl crush on you, acting all out and demanding to be noticed with personal insults and name-calling, just ignore it. You shouldn't reward their inappropriate childish behavior with the attention they crave, reinforcing the bad behavior. You help them learn to act like adults when you ignore the adolescent attention-seeking behavior


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Robert Williams said:


> But if it works for you, take it to the worlds next year and it should give you an overwhelming advantage since that is within the range if virtually all the targets. It might not be as beneficial for field shoots but for 3D it eliminates big challenge; accurate distance estimation. (If it works as advertised, of course).


Too early to give any serious judgement as if it will work for me as Im still learning and only built my distance out to 55 yards (point on is 45y). One of the problems with these forums/threads is people dismiss ideas/concepts without even trying them, Im at least open minded enough to try these things for myself, maybe we would have less arguments if people were a little more open to trying different things. :thumbs_up


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> agrees 100% with Robert Williams - there is no way in hell that one can use the same gap for 15 and 30 yards - grant has been trying to claim this for years - and it is bunk - a bow with an arrow traveling 200 fps would drop over 20 inches if you used the gap for 15 yards at 30 yards - any archery ballistics calculator can show this.


I disagree, I use the same gap from 5 to 25 yards. Have been for the last 2 years.
Don.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

steve morley said:


> Too early to give any serious judgement as if it will work for me as Im still learning and only built my distance out to 55 yards (point on is 45y). One of the problems with these forums/threads is people dismiss ideas/concepts without even trying them, Im at least open minded enough to try these things for myself, maybe we would have less arguments if people were a little more open to trying different things. :thumbs_up


I think if those advancing this method could explain the mechanics of a system where one mark can accurately place an arrow over a 20 inch range of drop between 15 and 30 yards, it would be a lot more enticing. 

I understand how you can sight in a rifle so that you have the same zero at say 75 and 250 yards but your shot is going to be high or low for everything in between. Let me know how it works for you when you shoot unmarked yardages. I'd be interested in hearing whether you think it's a great breakthrough or just another way of doing about the same thing you are already doing.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

See you thought Itbeso was my friend he picks on me to. I told you all it was going to get bloody and the battle would get fierce. 
Regardless if itbeso and I agree on just how tight my gaps are we do agree on that it is the most accurate nonsight aiming system. Now Steve is starting to see the light (sorry). Itbeso you just don't see what I see your patent ran out in 1990 I have fined tuned the system.
Gary


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

zestycj7 said:


> I disagree, I use the same gap from 5 to 25 yards. Have been for the last 2 years.
> Don.


Just how fast is that compound you are shooting in your avatar?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I don't have the same gap from 15 to 30 yds. 30 yds is 1/2" 25yds 5/8". 20yds 5/8" 15yds 1/2". As you start to get close to the target your gaps start to tighten up if you look at my gaps this happens between 20 and 15yds. 25yds and 20yds they flatten out .
You must remember I have been perfecting this since 1975 I did not invent this just refined it.
Gary


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

2413gary said:


> See you thought Itbeso was my friend he picks on me to. I told you all it was going to get bloody and the battle would get fierce.
> Regardless if itbeso and I agree on just how tight my gaps are we do agree on that it is the most accurate nonsight aiming system. Now Steve is starting to see the light (sorry). Itbeso you just don't see what I see your patent ran out in 1990 I have fined tuned the system.
> Gary


We all have to do what works best for us and I certainly am not questioning your own ideas of what works best for you or anyone else. I just can't understand the mechanics of what you are advancing from the way you are explaining it. Even if you split the middle of the parabola between 15 and 30, there is still a 20 foot range and that leaves 10 inches on either side, which isn't helpful and that's no matter where the "pin" is set. So I simply don't get the mechanics behind the one-pin-over-15-yards phenomenon. The times I've been to the world championships everyone had high and low misses due to yardage estimation errors, including the winners and it was worst on a foggy morning. It's just part of the game and no one I've ever seen shoot has been able to eliminate that part of the equation. The best shooters tend to be the ones that are just scary good with distance perception.


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

2413gary said:


> I don't have the same gap from 15 to 30 yds. 30 yds is 1/2" 25yds 5/8". 20yds 5/8" 15yds 1/2". As you start to get close to the target your gaps start to tighten up if you look at my gaps this happens between 20 and 15yds. 25yds and 20yds they flatten out .
> You must remember I have been perfecting this since 1975 I did not invent this just refined it.
> Gary


I see. Sounds to me that if you shoot a 15 yard target like its 30 then you blow over the top of the target just like everyone else, then. I shoot "about the same" between 15 and 20, too. I'm wondering if there's much difference between your tapping system and any other aside from the way you conceptualizer it. ????


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

2413gary said:


> I don't have the same gap from 15 to 30 yds. 30 yds is 1/2" 25yds 5/8". 20yds 5/8" 15yds 1/2". As you start to get close to the target your gaps start to tighten up if you look at my gaps this happens between 20 and 15yds. 25yds and 20yds they flatten out .
> You must remember I have been perfecting this since 1975 I did not invent this just refined it.
> Gary


Ps. Those markings sound about right for a multi-pin sight taped onto a bow like was done in the old days. Still needed to use the right pin, though or you get a pretty severe miss even though the pins were only a fraction of an inch apart.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Robert Williams said:


> Just how fast is that compound you are shooting in your avatar?


My shadowcat is pushing my 356 grain arrow at 276 fps
Don.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Steve the more you look for your gaps the easier they get to see. it just keeps getting better.
good luck
Gary


steve morley said:


> Ill add that I havent got my gaps to 1/8" or anything that precise but they have been cut in half which is a great help to me,


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Don't worry Dave if you think you have been taken advantage of I will gladly refund your money LOL
Gary


jusoldave said:


> Just a thought here, folks, but wouldn't all this long-running and detailed discussion of specific holdovers at specific ranges, with both soon-to-be contestants reading and contributing to the discussion, constitute some sort of interferance with the integrity of the upcoming shoot... not to mention all the millions in sports-book wagering riding on it?
> 
> I mean, really: one contestant is shooting gap system, and is getting fed info here by the ton. The other contestant is shooting instinctive - and with all these last minute numbers floatin' in his sight picture while he's trying to focus on sight picture, well... that's just gotta confusing.
> 
> ...


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Robert you are getting close just remember you are not looking at the pins you are looking at a picture betweem the spot and your arrow this picture has a size for each yardage this is what you look for. itbeso told me a long time ago that you must give each yardage a name. weather it is A,B,C,D ect. or 1/8", 1/4" ect. I am a machinst so I look at measurement all day long seeing an 1/8" or 1/2" is not a big deal. the more you look the more you will see.






this is how to learn to see. make a card hold it at arms lenth look at a size and remember what it looks like. 
Gary


Robert Williams said:


> Ps. Those markings sound about right for a multi-pin sight taped onto a bow like was done in the old days. Still needed to use the right pin, though or you get a pretty severe miss even though the pins were only a fraction of an inch apart.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Robert Williams said:


> Why bother responding? When someone acts like they've got a schoolgirl crush on you, acting all out and demanding to be noticed with personal insults and name-calling, just ignore it. You shouldn't reward their inappropriate childish behavior with the attention they crave, reinforcing the bad behavior. You help them learn to act like adults when you ignore the adolescent attention-seeking behavior


I try to reward him with some attention when he makes a non-bellicose post or exhibits a positive attitude. 

I thought his claim that he invented the gap system was an attempt at humor to lighten the mood and I enjoyed that.

I'll try to do better.

:amen:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Robert you are getting close just remember you are not looking at the pins you are looking at a picture betweem the spot and your arrow this picture has a size for each yardage this is what you look for. itbeso told me a long time ago that you must give each yardage a name. weather it is A,B,C,D ect. or 1/8", 1/4" ect. I am a machinst so I look at measurement all day long seeing an 1/8" or 1/2" is not a big deal. the more you look the more you will see.
> View attachment 1493298
> this is how to learn to see. make a card hold it at arms lenth look at a size and remember what it looks like.
> Gary


Great illustration, Gary. :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

If shot all gaping methods since 1988. The easiest and most consistent method is the pick a point. point on drop to front shelf is 20 yards. top spring on drop tip to front shelf is 25. Mid spring on drop tip to front shelf is 30. Bottom spring on drop tip to front shelf is 35. Now it changes here. Point on drop to bottom spring 40. Point on drop to mid spring is 45. Point on drop to top spring is 50. Point on 55. Top spring on 60. Mid spring on 65. Bottom spring on 70. Front shelf 80. Back shelf 90. In closing the yardages might not be every 5 yards to the references but I like to set bow where it's point on at 55yards with a springy rest. If you do that the yardages should be close. This has worked very well for me. Important note: once you use your reference while aiming at that point don't look at the shelf, arrow rest, but actually focus on the area that your arrow tip is at, tree limb, leaf, shadow,pallet, rock, whatever you can aim at, but always regal. Don't be lazy and go directly to your old gap. Go through the aiming process. Good luck


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

I have shot all gaping methods since 1985. The easiest and most consistent method is the pick a point. Here is the tried and true method that will work for you. point on drop arrow tip to front shelf is 20 yards. top springy arrow rest on drop arrow tip to front shelf is 25. Mid springy rest on drop arrow tip to front shelf is 30. Bottom springy rest on drop arrow tip to front shelf is 35. Now it changes here. Point on drop arrow tip to bottom springy rest 40. Point on drop arrow tip to mid springy rest is 45. Point on drop arrow tip to top springy rest is 50. arrow tip Point on 55. Top springy rest on 60. Mid springy rest on 65. Bottom springy rest on 70. Front shelf on 80. Back shelf on 90. In closing the yardages might not be every 5 yards to the references but I like to set bow where it's point on at 55yards with a springy rest. If you do that the yardages should be close. This has worked very well for me. Important note: once you use your reference while aiming at that point don't look at the shelf, arrow rest, but actually focus on the area that your arrow tip is at, tree limb, leaf, shadow,pallet, rock, whatever you can aim at. On your second shot Dont be lazy and go directly to your old gap. Tree limb,leaf,shadow,pallet,etc....Go through the aiming process. Good luck


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Robert Williams said:


> Why bother responding? When someone acts like they've got a schoolgirl crush on you, acting all out and demanding to be noticed with personal insults and name-calling, just ignore it. You shouldn't reward their inappropriate childish behavior with the attention they crave, reinforcing the bad behavior. You help them learn to act like adults when you ignore the adolescent attention-seeking behavior


Awww, Robert, does that mean we're not friends anymore. I don't think I could bear it if we weren't friends. The fact of the matter is that you came on a previous thread trying to be as big a contrarian as your hero Logos. You haven't quite succeeded. What has happened is that you and logos were ridiculed so much(and rightfully so), that you both have tempered your rhetoric down to the point to where you at least make sense some of the time. Give it a few more threads and both of you just might get the picture of how adult and intelligent posters conduct themselves(but then again not). I hope this is the case as these threads can be entertaining and fun without all your attempts to put people down.. I had seriously hoped that you two were somehow humanitarians who were trying to deflect some of the abuse that sharpbroadhead gets but I quickly saw that was not the case.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

davidcamacho said:


> I have shot all gaping methods since 1988. The easiest and most consistent method is the pick a point. point on drop to front shelf is 20 yards. top spring on drop tip to front shelf is 25. Mid spring on drop tip to front shelf is 30. Bottom spring on drop tip to front shelf is 35. Now it changes here. Point on drop to bottom spring 40. Point on drop to mid spring is 45. Point on drop to top spring is 50. Point on 55. Top spring on 60. Mid spring on 65. Bottom spring on 70. Front shelf 80. Back shelf 90. In closing the yardages might not be every 5 yards to the references but I like to set bow where it's point on at 55yards with a springy rest. If you do that the yardages should be close. This has worked very well for me. Important note: once you use your reference while aiming at that point don't look at the shelf, arrow rest, but actually focus on the area that your arrow tip is at, tree limb, leaf, shadow,pallet, rock, whatever you can aim at. On your second shot Dont be lazy and go directly to your old gap. Go through the aiming process. Good luck


David, That cheatin pick a point system that Brown taught you is at best, second best. BUT, DO YOU HAVE AN ASPEN FOR SALE?:teeth:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Awww, Robert, does that mean we're not friends anymore. I don't think I could bear it if we weren't friends. The fact of the matter is that you came on a previous thread trying to be as big a contrarian as your hero Logos. You haven't quite succeeded. What has happened is that you and logos were ridiculed so much(and rightfully so), that you both have tempered your rhetoric down to the point to where you at least make sense some of the time. Give it a few more threads and both of you just might get the picture of how adult and intelligent posters conduct themselves(but then again not). I hope this is the case as these threads can be entertaining and fun without all your attempts to put people down.. I had seriously hoped that you two were somehow humanitarians who were trying to deflect some of the abuse that sharpbroadhead gets but I quickly saw that was not the case.


LOL...nailed it!

Ray :shade:


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

Haha. Never


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Dave just rent him one you make money and get the bow back. how could go wrong?
Gary


davidcamacho said:


> Haha. Never


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Matt_Potter said:


> Grant. When I gap 3D I just have 3 gaps short medium and far - set the gap and let the brain take over.
> 
> The instinctive guys are doing the same thing on the close shots the don't think about it they just set their bow hand microscopically lower on the long stuff just a touch higher.
> 
> ...


THIS!..................................................Jim


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

zestycj7 said:


> My shadowcat is pushing my 356 grain arrow at 276 fps
> Don.


Sounds good! Not so fast as to be too twitchy and plenty fast for lots of forgiveness in distance estimation errors.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Gary great photo is that imperial or US measurement lol

Im enjoying the learning process but the verdict is still out in seeing if it works for me, I tried Stringwalking in the new year and it drove me a little nuts with the tuning and felt like I was struggling with aim, felt a little target panic creeping in to my shooting, so maybe my BIG gaps might not be the best aiming system out there but it may be the best system to use for my screwed up head lol

Did some walkback today every 5 yards starting from 10yards out to 50yards on a 40cm Field face, on one of the ends I put every arrow in the spot out to 40y, it felt GOOD


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

steve morley said:


> Too early to give any serious judgement as if it will work for me as Im still learning and only built my distance out to 55 yards (point on is 45y). One of the problems with these forums/threads is people dismiss ideas/concepts without even trying them, Im at least open minded enough to try these things for myself, maybe we would have less arguments if people were a little more open to trying different things. :thumbs_up


Excellent post Steve. IMHO you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes you get surprised by what you can learn by actually trying something new. That's true in archery and life in general. Unfortunately to many people have theirown little box and are afraid to leave their comfort zone. I guess that's just human nature.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

It all depend on which side of the scale I was using when I measured the slots. It's metric on one side and ******* American on the other LOL yes I understand the head part mine is brused from all the banging
Gary


steve morley said:


> Gary great photo is that imperial or US measurement lol
> 
> Im enjoying the learning process but the verdict is still out in seeing if it works for me, I tried Stringwalking in the new year and it drove me a little nuts with the tuning and felt like I was struggling with aim, felt a little target panic creeping in to my shooting, so maybe my BIG gaps might not be the best aiming system out there but it may be the best system to use for my screwed up head lol
> 
> Did some walkback today every 5 yards starting from 10yards out to 50yards on a 40cm Field face, on one of the ends I put every arrow in the spot out to 40y, it felt GOOD


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

2413gary said:


> View attachment 1493298
> this is how to learn to see. make a card hold it at arms lenth look at a size and remember what it looks like.
> Gary


I think i need one of those, and learn to memorize my 'gap tables'


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Robert Williams said:


> Sounds good! Not so fast as to be too twitchy and plenty fast for lots of forgiveness in distance estimation errors.


How fast does it get when bows get 'twitchy'? I don't think I've shot a bow that fast.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> I understand the head part mine is brused from all the banging
> Gary


Not as bruised as ITBESOs is right now - LOL (that is a friendly LOL heal up old man)

Matt


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## Robert Williams (May 5, 2004)

BarneySlayer said:


> How fast does it get when bows get 'twitchy'? I don't think I've shot a bow that fast.


I don't know about today's compounds but in days gone by tweaking for speeds approaching 300 fps made bows very, very critical. It's not surprising that many of the best open shooters settle for around 280 when there are bows with IBO ratings way over 300 Fps.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Not as bruised as ITBESOs is right now - LOL (that is a friendly LOL heal up old man)
> 
> Matt


Head is healed, my daughter said it was a good thing that was what hit first.:teeth:. My shoulder refuses to cooperate however. Hopefully, it won't be too long. Send us all a picture when you get that wapiti on the ground. Good luck!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey Matt,
Does your wife hunt? I heard you are pretty tall. So if you wear camo she could put a tree stand on you and hunt. Hey, you could be the mobile tree stand. :wink:
Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

One thing at a time Sandy when we got married she was a vegetarian - I cured her of that LOL - actually Pam loves Triathlons so we just trade off on weekends were we compete - My daughter Olivia shoots 3d she is going to come to Cloverdale but, doesn't know if she is going to shoot in the youth class or string-walk with the big girls.










This is a shot of her with her first State buckle

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Matt,
Yeeeha! Congrats to Olivia. You have a very lovely daughter. I understand baby steps. Wow, Triathalon is no baby step, more power to her. Gary took me on my first hunting trip and I have been going every since. He made it fun from the first time and every time. I really think it is because we are together no matter what we do. He sacrificed a lot of his hunting time to make sure that I was able to get a chance to shoot something. He could have gotten a lot more animals if I wasn't with him. And the hunts would have been cheaper too. LOL. I am truly grateful for all he has done for me.
Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

HuH it didn't like the URL for the pic of my lovely daughter - gotta fix that









Sandy

If your relationship with Gary is like Pam and mine (and I guess it is) he didn't mind 'cause he was hunting with his best friend - just don't WHOOP him to bad in this contest Socal WHOOP or not.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Matt,
I know! We are best friends and have been for more than 40 years.
Sandy


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Sandy,
For a screen name how about something easy like Gary has....2413 Sandy?
Don.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Don,
We thought of that and keep coming back to it. Thanks.
Sandy


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Matt,
> Yeeeha! Congrats to Olivia. You have a very lovely daughter. I understand baby steps. Wow, Triathalon is no baby step, more power to her. Gary took me on my first hunting trip and I have been going every since. He made it fun from the first time and every time. I really think it is because we are together no matter what we do. He sacrificed a lot of his hunting time to make sure that I was able to get a chance to shoot something. He could have gotten a lot more animals if I wasn't with him. And the hunts would have been cheaper too. LOL. I am truly grateful for all he has done for me.
> Sandy


Now that is just cool! Congrats to both of you.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

That's great Matt, I look forward to meeting her there. Bet she can't sweat to your standards though 



QUOTE=Matt_Potter;1065450659]One thing at a time Sandy when we got married she was a vegetarian - I cured her of that LOL - actually Pam loves Triathlons so we just trade off on weekends were we compete - My daughter Olivia shoots 3d she is going to come to Cloverdale but, doesn't know if she is going to shoot in the youth class or string-walk with the big girls.










This is a shot of her with her first State buckle

Matt[/QUOTE]


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> One thing at a time Sandy when we got married she was a vegetarian - I cured her of that LOL - actually Pam loves Triathlons so we just trade off on weekends were we compete - My daughter Olivia shoots 3d she is going to come to Cloverdale but, doesn't know if she is going to shoot in the youth class or string-walk with the big girls.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats to you and her  

Archery is a great family sport


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

- just don't WHOOP him to bad in this contest Socal WHOOP or not.

I will shoot focusing on shooting my best, whatever happens happens::teeth:
Sandy


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Gary, Sandy,
It raining out at Oranco right now. I hope it's just enough to green it up a bit.
Don.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Don,
Is it going to rain at Oranco on Sunday? I think it was predicted to rain a little bit on Thursday afternoon and possibly Friday morning. Right now I have a light mist with heavy fog.

Hey, this is something we are now talking weather on Tradtalk.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

2413gary said:


> Don,
> Is it going to rain at Oranco on Sunday? I think it was predicted to rain a little bit on Thursday afternoon and possibly Friday morning. Right now I have a light mist with heavy fog.
> 
> Hey, this is something we are now talking weather on Tradtalk.


 Gary,
They are calling for "NO" rain on Sunday.
It rainined yesterday and it looks like we might get a little this morning. I am headed out to the range in about 10 min. I am going to shoot the full 56 target range, going to be a long day.
Don.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I really dislike you guys from California that can shoot outdoors year around.... and have the courses close enough to do it... LOL


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

the weather is good not sure about the close part Ca is 800 miles long


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I guess that close is relative.... Closest field range for me is almost 2 hours one way. Thats why I am pushing our local club to start building one. Just need to add some yards to some of the targets on our 3D trail and we should be good.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

rsarns said:


> I guess that close is relative.... Closest field range for me is almost 2 hours one way. Thats why I am pushing our local club to start building one. Just need to add some yards to some of the targets on our 3D trail and we should be good.


That is why Gary & I moved to where could build an archery. In fact when we looked at this place, we looked to build a range. Gary told the realtor, "we'll take it!" (based on his observation of the property.) Then the realtor asked, "Would like to see the house? And Gary said, "Oh, ok. Priorities , it's all about PRIORTIES. The house was fine. We have a great please with wildlife as a bonus and a million $ view. The view is worth than the house.
Sandy


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Sandy,
Its awesome that you have such a place. When the wife finally retires and we move, that will be a top priority, more acreage so I can build a range. We are only on a couple acres now, but I can get shots out to 70 yards pretty easy, justy not a full fledged or even partial range. Tday we finally broke our 80 days of no rain, and its back to typical NW weather of wind and rain.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

2413gary said:


> That is why Gary & I moved to where could build an archery. In fact when we looked at this place, we looked to build a range. Gary told the realtor, "we'll take it!" (based on his observation of the property.) Then the realtor asked, "Would like to see the house? And Gary said, "Oh, ok. Priorities , it's all about PRIORTIES. The house was fine. We have a great please with wildlife as a bonus and a million $ view. The view is worth than the house.
> Sandy


Sandy you are bumming me out! We live in a city because of the proximity to my wife's work. Nice house, neighborhood etc. and really love It here....however it is against the law to shoot a bow or anything else in the city limits. They will come and give you a ticket if they see you or the neighbors complain. I have set up a target in my shed where I can shoot about 9 yards inside. It's great for just working on form but if I want to shoot for real I have to drive 30 minutes to my club. It's a great facility but I could shoot out to 100 yards at our old house in the country. You guys have a great looking piece of land and it helps that the house is ok too. Enjoy!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Old Sarge said:


> Sandy you are bumming me out! We live in a city because of the proximity to my wife's work. Nice house, neighborhood etc. and really love It here....however it is against the law to shoot a bow or anything else in the city limits. They will come and give you a ticket if they see you or the neighbors complain. I have set up a target in my shed where I can shoot about 9 yards inside. It's great for just working on form but if I want to shoot for real I have to drive 30 minutes to my club. It's a great facility but I could shoot out to 100 yards at our old house in the country. You guys have a great looking piece of land and it helps that the house is ok too. Enjoy!


Sarge,
We used to shoot through our house. We would open the hall closet that had a sign on it that said "Caution Shooting". So we knew when one of us were shooting. We would open up our garage door and our glass doors to the patio. We would then shoot from in the garage through the dining room, through the living room and into the target setting I the back yard. It gave us a 30 yard shot. :teeth: We have 10 acres but seems like more because it is a canyon. That really works well for back stops on targets. 
Sandy


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Sarge,
> We used to shoot through our house. We would open the hall closet that had a sign on it that said "Caution Shooting". So we knew when one of us were shooting. We would open up our garage door and our glass doors to the patio. We would then shoot from in the garage through the dining room, through the living room and into the target setting I the back yard. It gave us a 30 yard shot. :teeth: We have 10 acres but seems like more because it is a canyon. That really works well for back stops on targets.
> Sandy


Man that is hardcore! I have shot in sheds, garages, and down a road but never through the house. I'm impressed!


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I think it was about 2:00pm when Gary and Sandy pulled into the range.
There is only 17 hours untill the comp begins.
Don.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

zestycj7 said:


> I think it was about 2:00pm when Gary and Sandy pulled into the range.
> There is only 17 hours untill the comp begins.
> Don.


Can't wait to see the outcome, or at least how bad Sandy beats him.... I'll check on the scores when I get home from the Seahawks game tomorrow.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Wow, through the house... I'm impressed. I've done shooting in the kitchen and in the bedroom, but never a full 30 yards through multiple rooms... Gives me yet one more goal!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Hope you guys have a better day for weather than we are going to here. No excuses if the weather is fine for you guys! Looks like the family and I will need plenty of rain gear today at the game.....


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Send it our way just getting the edge of it - but Gary can use it as an easy out "target was wet so I couldn't burn a hole". 

Come Gary WHOOP on her I've got money riding on you


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Matt, glad too. They say up to 4"s rain in the Cascades this afternoon, wind is already howling up here in the Islands. We are headed out for the game in Seattle in a bit.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Soooooo............ ????????


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Final Score....
Sandy---756
Gary-----771
I do belive they each won thier classes.
I ended up with a --711 for 2nd. in my class.
Pics to come in a bit.
Don.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Here are 2 pics I got of Gary and Sandy, Sandy was hideing behind Gary.
As you can see in the first pic, Gary shot without using a gap, but in the 2nd. pic you can see by the way he has ended the shot he had used a gap for the shot.
Don.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

zestycj7 said:


> Here are 2 pics I got of Gary and Sandy, Sandy was hideing behind Gary.
> As you can see in the first pic, Gary shot without using a gap, but in the 2nd. pic you can see by the way he has ended the shot he had used a gap for the shot.
> Don.
> View attachment 1496650
> View attachment 1496651


Good observation Don, I would have missed that one if you hadn't pointed it out.:teeth:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

zestycj7 said:


> Here are 2 pics I got of Gary and Sandy, Sandy was hideing behind Gary.
> As you can see in the first pic, Gary shot without using a gap, but in the 2nd. pic you can see by the way he has ended the shot he had used a gap for the shot.
> Don.
> View attachment 1496650
> View attachment 1496651


so he cheated you sayin?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

zestycj7 said:


> Here are 2 pics I got of Gary and Sandy, Sandy was hideing behind Gary.
> As you can see in the first pic, Gary shot without using a gap, but in the 2nd. pic you can see by the way he has ended the shot he had used a gap for the shot.
> Don.
> View attachment 1496650
> View attachment 1496651


And then you've got that cheatin stringwalker , julie Robinson in the same group. All aiming methods covered and no arguing. amazing!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Well gang,
We are one our way home and Gary is driving with his head hanging out the window. Yelling and screaming like he just came home from a Laker Game and his team won!!!! 

Wow! It was a fierce battle back and forth all day long. Right out of the shoot. Gary tripped up and missed the 101 yarder and I was ahead by 10 points. I kept gaining 1 point per target. After a while it was like looking at the car in your review mirror. Then all of the sudden he put the peddle to the metal and started picking up points. When we got even he looked over at me and said see ya! Wow kinda of like the tortoise and the hair. That should teach me not too sink too low into my comfort zone. And that had nothing to do with gap shooting. With the whirl wind Gary caused as he passed me by, I just had to many decisions to make. 1/4, 1/16, 3/4, 1/8, 1/2, I began to doubt myself. I started to pick up a point now and then but not quite enough to close the Gap. THIS IS NOT OVER YET!

There will be another day. Hmmmmmm, when is our next shoot. I will for sure be practicing the gaps that I was not strong on.
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I am sure when Gary is done screaming and yelling out the window and wipes that ridiculous grin off his face and is finished driving us home he will have something to say about all this.
Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hhhhhmmmmm - so you say first sandy was whopping on Gary the all of a sudden Gary started shooting better - sounds like he got sick of being beaten with his own diaper an changed something - I wonder what that could be

How many targets before he caved.??

Matt


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

zestycj7 said:


> Here are 2 pics I got of Gary and Sandy, Sandy was hideing behind Gary.
> As you can see in the first pic, Gary shot without using a gap, but in the 2nd. pic you can see by the way he has ended the shot he had used a gap for the shot.
> Don.
> View attachment 1496650
> View attachment 1496651


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Well, i believe he caved on the second target where he missed the 101 yarder putting me 10 points ahead. But you will hear from him when we get home. That should be in about 2 hours. Then you will his view from the other side of the arrow. 
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Well, i believe he caved on the second target where he missed the 101 yarder putting me 10 points ahead. But you will hear from him when we get home. That should be in about 2 hours. Then you will his view from the other side of the arrow.
> Sandy
> 
> Educated Guess
> Sandy


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

I thought for sure that your experience of shooting through the house would have led you to victory, but I agree with Matt. All is not on the up and up.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

jkcerda said:


> are those from todays shoot? I missed it :aww:
> 
> HOW can you tell GAP was used in one & not the other? :noidea:


Educated Guess. B

ut I can tell you that I saw Gary and Don talking and looking over at me from a far and it may be about those two photos in questions. 
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Old Sarge said:


> I thought for sure that your experience of shooting through the house would have led you to victory, but I agree with Matt. All is not on the up and up.


Yeah, but Gary shot through the same house, that's a wash.
Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Second target - I am so disappointed i figured he would hang for at least 3 

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Second target - I am so disappointed i figured he would hang for at least 3
> 
> Matt


101 yarder can have a devastating effect on a person. He didn't shoot bad. I just got a head start after he tripped up on that target and kept staying close to the middle for a while. He was there too but I just wasn't letting up then I tripped up then he grabbed a hand full of points. It was back and forth all day and on the last target I dropped an arrow out of the target. Got to save the marriage you know. But did I do that on purpose? NOT! LOL
Sandy


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

101 yarder - so how exactly does one gap off the riser instinctively??


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> 101 yarder - so how exactly does one gap off the riser instinctively??


Silly wabbitt, you don't "see" the riser.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> 101 yarder - so how exactly does one gap off the riser instinctively??


He couldn't figure it out thats why he missed.
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

BTW. This target was about half the size of the Bigfoot at the Redding shoot.
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Silly wabbitt, you don't "see" the riser.


Yep and this case it was an arrow in the wild blue yonder. The target was up hill with no back ground but the sky.
Sandy


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> BTW. This target was about half the size of the Bigfoot at the Redding shoot.
> Sandy


I know you are trying to save your marriage making excuses for Gary, BUT, apparently YOU did hit it!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

itbeso said:


> I know you are trying to save your marriage making excuses for Gary, BUT, apparently YOU did hit it!


Yep, your right, I did hit it.:archery::grin:
Sandy


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

WHOOPED Ok you 75% who voted for Sandy ye of little faith. And for you 25% who voted for me. You always new you were right. Good news travels fast I had three new sponsors leave phone messages wanting me to shoot their equipment. I will keep their company's names confidential for now. I don't want them to getting bidding war over me. I think I will look into getting a Buss so Sandy can drive me to the upcoming tournaments. Wow I am having such a good day I don't think I could even get mad at a couple of posters here who just can't understand the instinctive subconscious gap or gapping instinctively or whatever system I used today.
Gary


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## barebowguy (Feb 1, 2009)

I know you could not handle the pressure of getting whooped by sandy so you switched to gapstinctive. I won't hold it against you, I'd still be happy to have you as a partner in redding any day because I know you would use what it takes to get the job done.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I think we have done that Redding thing once and on that gap stinky I will never tell 
Gary


barebowguy said:


> I know you could not handle the pressure of getting whooped by sandy so you switched to gapstinctive. I won't hold it against you, I'd still be happy to have you as a partner in redding any day because I know you would use what it takes to get the job done.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Gary, I think that the 101 target got to you and as you found yourself falling further and further behind you Instictively reverted to some type of clandestine form of gap shooting. It all happened at a subconscious level and of course you cannot be held accountable for your actions. If however you did not revert to the tried and true gap system to make your comeback and actually shot instinctive the entire way Sharp will be proud of you.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Is it too late to vote on who I predict will win?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

jusoldave said:


> Is it too late to vote on who I predict will win?


Not if you can get members of the Black Panther Party to walk you into the voting booth!


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

(wiping coffee off my screen...) :laugh:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm from Illinois; I should be allowed to vote several times. My beagle should get to vote also


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

So what it comes down to is Gary was getting Whooped and he went back to gapping.... good choice!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

rsarns said:


> So what it comes down to is Gary was getting Whooped and he went back to gapping.... good choice!


That is why my money was on Gary I knew he would do what needed to be done.

Ren - that long rod set up is SWEET.

Matt


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Matt,
I am going to start practicing with my 30" B Stinger and V bars on the Hoyt for Vegas. For now though have to keep the recurve setup for the FITA indoor State shoot next month. I have shot the long stab quite a bit in the past with compounds.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I was getting whoooped because I was choking not be cause I was shooting with out looking at the arrow. And let me tell you when Sandy get a 3 or 4 point lead its a scary thing. Can you amagine a 15 point lead!!! I will be scarred for life. I am not calling it instinctive anymore to many people out there with aiming issues. (shooting without looking at the arrow) I like it.
Gary


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Gary, I saw both you and Sandy walking instinctivgaply across the range alot yesterday.
It looked so natural, like you have been doing for a great many years...:wink:
Don.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Hummmmm . . . . . . . .Reading all this sounds to me like Gary still has the "JACK IN THE BOX" head. :nixon: I am hoping this is a short lived success. I am going to practice for our next challenge. Its ok Gary, keep up with this false sense of security. :dance: LOL
Sandy


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