# Hard Wall-Soft Wall?



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I've been playing with my draw stops to the point where I'm now pulling into a soft wall as opposed to the hard stop I'd been using previously.

It seems as if I come to the stops and then continue to pull until the shot goes bye bye...

Unfortunately I've been confined to the lower level of the castle doing blind baling, so I'm not sure what the results will be once I take the blinders off.

The reason I'm experimenting with this is because I've pretty much always had a problem holding on the target.

So I'm wondering which is going to give me better holding (steady) patterns, hard wall or softer wall?


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

I experimented with this during the earlier part of the indoor season. I shoot on OK Absolute which gives you the option of limb stops or cable stops....to me, I think it depends on how you execute the back end. As you eluded to, I don't think you'll be able to answer this for yoursel on the blind bale. 20yds will tell you...

With the limb stops, I had to shoot my hinge where I yielded my release hand pressure (similar to how GRIV preaches). I like to pull hard, which was resulting in me pulling myself off target at times since there wasn't any give in the wall. If I didn't yield my release hand enough, I'd pull the shot left. 

With cable stops, I could have a bit harder hand since the wall had a smidge of give to it. The problem I had was I pulled hard enough to where I was going past my full expansion and had inconsistent results. I shortened the DL two twists on the string and things have never felt better (maybe 1/16").


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

It's probably more just a matter of preference determined by trial-and-error, in my view. I shoot with a tension-style release so it virtually makes no difference in my case, tho, since I have to pull back to the same amount of pressure regardless. However, my Hoyt wheel bow has an extremely soft back wall so it's almost like shooting a recurve with an E=MC^2 amount of stacking. So it gives the feeling of expansion through the shot a little more than my PSE, which has a medium-hard back wall. 

When I shot a hinge, though, I strongly preferred the soft back wall of my Hoyt, mainly because I liked having the extra movement available to help the hinge go off.

LS


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

A little safety concern. Guessing you're backing off the hard stops and getting a cable stop effect. Watch how far you back off the stop or stops. Too far and you may get a lock up.


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## Dr. Perk (Jun 21, 2012)

carlosii said:


> I've been playing with my draw stops to the point where I'm now pulling into a soft wall as opposed to the hard stop I'd been using previously.
> 
> It seems as if I come to the stops and then continue to pull until the shot goes bye bye...
> 
> ...


This is how I have my bow setup this year and it's working great for me so far.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the advent of super hard walls, came about with the improvements and popularity of thumb trigger releases. the fact that they became designed like a gun trigger, where you can set them up with almost no perceived travel and trigger pressure, made the need for some give at the wall unnecessary, but that , also brought around a tendency to be timid on the execution and loaded forums like this, with guys asking what is going on with their release execution. all three aspects, kind of generated each other as they developed, in a sort of circular process, of one creating the other, creating another, over a period of a few years in the mid eighties or so.
you can shoot a hinge against a hard wall, just the same, it just takes a bit of modification to your rotation, in that you have to rotate, without the moving the release back as you rotate and really loading the release's sear pressure. 
it's all just a matter of learning about the different types of "release engines",...as they're called,... and getting used to what you have. there's really no right or wrong about it, some ways just work better for some guys and some don't.
which one works the best for you, can only be decided on, by you. you'll never know, unless you investigate the various methods.
that said, I think a softer wall is probably better for someone to learn using a hinge with. many bows can be set up either way by using different stops for different effects.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know of a cable stop bow today that doesn't have give of the wall. They are called soft walled. Not really true, but just the same they have give that many prefer. Into the wall one could probably draw another half inch easily and if of lower draw weight or muscling a hinge maybe a inch. I have personally seen this. One of the most super nice Hoyts I ever shot had the owner sell the bow because "the wall was too soft." Yep, he was muscling his hinge release and he wouldn't listen to anyone, even the person who sold him the bow.
Same can be said of single cam bows before the advent of the adjustable draw stop. I have two of these pre-draw stop bows and both are super accurate.

I shot every Hoyt cam system except for the Master Cam and Wheel & 1/2 before the coming of adjustable hard draw stops. Go back to 1999 and come forward to the adjustable draw stop bows and you will find a bunch of cam systems, from single to dual cams. All shot great and all had give of the wall. I shot these bows with a index, thumb and hinge release and had no issues. I had two of the earlier single cam bows with adjustable draw stops and never noticed a difference...

Of the 2008 to 2012 Martin bows have the one adjustable hard draw stop. A hard wall for sure, but of the longer ata bows I shot there was a cushy feel of the wall. I had a 2005 Bowtech Old Glory that was much the same. Of the Martins I had a little getting use to shooting with a hinge, but after getting use to it wasn't much different than the Hoyt ProElite I had at the time. 

Of the 2009 to date Pearson bows with adjustable hard draw stops you have a rock hard wall, no give whatsoever. Here, using a thumb release was different and using a hinge a bigger difference. To me correct draw length in paramount. There were two versions of draw stops and no reason given. The Z34 with R2B2 cams had a single hard draw stop. The TX4 with R2B2 cams had two hard draw stops.

Of Martin's Cat, Nitro and Hybrix (Rytera) cams. The draw stop can be backed off quite a bit and maybe not even employed and safely shoot, BUT! if over drawn or of low draw weight they can be scary. Like fire the release and then seem like the bow string takes a second to go forward. I know it's scary because I had to re-setup one bow that did just like I said, fire and then just sort of hang there before the string slung the arrow. 

Pearson's R2B2 cams are not to shot without draw stop (s) in place or damage and/or lock up may come. I have one, the TX4 with 2 draw stops. 
Pearson's Legend, LSM and LS3 cams may be shot without draw stops (2 each) in place. I have one each of the Legend and LSM cams.

Again, of the hard draw stop bows I really feel that draw length is more paramount with either a thumb or hinge and especially with a hinge.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have never shot a limb stop bow, all of my bowtechs are a cable stop bow and I can feel a little give in the wall. I use that give in the wall to set my pre load of back tension into the wall. 

I can see that with a limb stop wall there isn't going to be hardly any give into the wall so a shooter is basically coming to anchor and sitting against the wall, having your draw length absolutely perfect is way more critical so you aren't wanting to creep.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Be aware that when you adjust the stops on a bow you are also adjusting the DL (depending on which stops you move).
On my Moxie, I much prefer the holding weight and slight "give" in the wall when I use the 70% let off pegs (cable stops) and leave my limb stops in the 80% position. However, that makes my DL just a little too short, and my float gets "busy"
Going to the 80%, my float slows down, but the low holding weight is much more sensitive to torque, and lets the release end get lazy (less weight to hold, less need for back tension).
So for me with this bow right now, both set-ups are a compromise. 

As far as JUST the back wall is concerned, I find a soft back wall works better with a hinge, and a solid back wall works better for a thumb trigger...preferably one with zero trigger travel.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

back tension, shouldn't be "reactive", it should be "proactive", it should be there no matter how much holding weight is involved. it should be a default muscular activity, that operates because it is operating....because you're drawing/shooting a bow....because your shoulders are moving in a way that is present when you shoot a bow,...... not because you're pulling against some weight of any amount.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Different walls can affect your shooting depending on how you chose to activate your release.
Without yielding or manipulating the release, hinges generally work better with a softer wall.
Releases that don't require much (if any) movement can work better with a solid wall.
Maintaining your holding weight with a release that requires movement is going to be easier with a softer back wall.

I think most would agree there is a reason most top archers don't shoot 80%+ let off. Having a valley that allows some movement without wildly changing your holding weight (like a solid back wall will do) makes shooting a release with an engine that requires some movement easier for many if not most.
It would seem that the vast majority of top shooters prefer a softer back wall. If they didn't pull into it, one would think a solid back wall (limb stops) would be much more consistent.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

The "process" shall be driven by your draw length starting from point A and ending with point B (and not B and a 1/2), you train every micron of movement between these two points what and when to happen. I believe if you graduate with this concept you will never think again is that a soft or hard wall but exactly the same amount of travel regardless what release (but a single release any of your choise) or firing engine you using.
Shall not pull hard into hard wall (because you still putting an inconsistent pressure to limb tips) or soft wall (because you putting inconsistent pressure on cables, this effects the cam timing).
Lets play this game. You increase the bow DL a bit longer so you can stop the cam timing before the valley (far earlier then the backwall), and hold on that holding weight of whatever let say 22 lbs...now you train to draw to that exact point every time. This will give you far better results then any pulling into backwall.
Years ago I had one release from HHA where I would set the pull tension to fire at a given DW at my proper form/DL, it was some ugly big awkward T shaped release but a very educational tool to train the DL/HW consistency.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

bigHUN said:


> Lets play this game. You increase the bow DL a bit longer so you can stop the cam timing before the valley (far earlier then the backwall), and hold on that holding weight of whatever let say 22 lbs...now you train to draw to that exact point every time. This will give you far better results then any pulling into backwall.


I'm not totally convinced about this and am not sure what the goal is with this? The problem here, in my view, is going to be exactly this drawing to the same exact point every time - especially if the bow has a long valley, repeating the draw length is going to be difficult. For the same reason draw checks (clickers) are needed on recurves. Granted, the valley gives you more of an indication of draw length than the totally smooth increase in poundage given by a recurve, but it's still going to be tough to repeat the draw length.

Reason I say this: I used to shoot compound in exactly this way back when I was a young man. My Hoyt was set at IIRC 30" draw length (my present day DL is 28.5") and I always shot in the middle of the valley as close as I could determine that to be. I won no and I mean zeeero tournaments with that method too I can assure you LOL.

So I think the wall actually provides a better draw length check than just trying to estimate where you are in the valley. Unless a clicker is used, I'm not sure what advantage this method gives.


> Years ago I had one release from HHA where I would set the pull tension to fire at a given DW at my proper form/DL, it was some ugly big awkward T shaped release but a very educational tool to train the DL/HW consistency.


Ah, I believe you're describing a tension release LOL.... They still make 'em and I shoot a couple of them today (Carter Evo + and Stan Evolution)...

LS


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

unclejane said:


> I'm not totally convinced about this and am not sure what the goal is with this? The problem here, in my view, is going to be exactly this drawing to the same exact point every time...


Well, the point is, either you want to learn or just not to...
some people have no confidence how they set the bow so pulling into the backwall, why, because there is still something remaining from the shooters DL. 
How you can learn a consistent DL is up to you to chose from several methods, but the point is again in location B on the cams there is a certain powerstroke, you need that same PS all the time. Hardwall or softwall regardless, you need to draw to point B not longer and not shorter. If the Olympic shooters can train (and score the 90 meters impressively well) why tha hell the compound shooters can not?
Everybody invests time and effort all depends how far want to reach....
I have 3 big clubs around me in an hour drive radius, I was watching some of the Olympic folks training more then thousand shots a week (I can say their names some international champions) and I was impressed with their dedication and how they concentrate doing their game, I hear that many big compound shooters frequently taking extra practice time with recurves.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> Well, the point is, either you want to learn or just not to...
> .


What we're are talking of is a soft wall is easier to cope/learn than a hard wall. That a soft wall gives one has a range that his or her draw length will fit/learn or learn/fit. A hard wall has no give. You're either on the wall or off the wall. Here, draw length is more crucial. You correct/change the draw length of the bow or d-loop so you're right at the wall with "your" draw length.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

bigHUN said:


> Well, the point is, either you want to learn or just not to...
> some people have no confidence how they set the bow so pulling into the backwall, why, because there is still something remaining from the shooters DL.
> How you can learn a consistent DL is up to you to chose from several methods, but the point is again in location B on the cams there is a certain powerstroke, you need that same PS all the time. Hardwall or softwall regardless, you need to draw to point B not longer and not shorter. If the Olympic shooters can train (and score the 90 meters impressively well) why tha hell the compound shooters can not?


Understood and I think you're quite right that a consistent draw length will always aid in accuracy and consistency of tune, etc.. But it still isn't clear how drawing to some point in the middle of the valley buys you anything over drawing into some point into the back wall. In fact, it turns out that the back wall on a compound does function pretty well as a draw check by itself, particularly the harder it is. That's why compounds don't normally need to be shot with any drawcheck devices like clickers.

So I'm still not entirely convinced....


> Everybody invests time and effort all depends how far want to reach....
> I have 3 big clubs around me in an hour drive radius, I was watching some of the Olympic folks training more then thousand shots a week (I can say their names some international champions) and I was impressed with their dedication and how they concentrate doing their game, I hear that many big compound shooters frequently taking extra practice time with recurves.


I shot olympic style recurve for a number of years and I definitely agree it is really helpful on the compound for a number of different reasons. But I have to say that, while draw check devices are routine on the oly recurve, they're almost (but not quite) unheard of on the compound. Reason being, the presence of the back wall as the typical draw check there; the surprise shot is achieved with other means (usually the release aid).

The only place clickers are normally used on compounds with any frequency is among finger shooters. They fit clickers to their bows for similar reasons to why the oly recurve folks use them; very squishy back walls tend to be the preference there as well. 

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

people say that they used to shoot in the middle of the valley back years ago, when bows didn't have walls. the fact of the matter is that there were ways to deliberately make a bow have a solid wall, back then. and most of the pros and anyone who shot seriously, knew how to do it as early as 1973 or so.... I was told of the method in 1974, when I was taught to shoot correctly by a leading PSE pro, and it was common knowledge amongst the serious shooter already.. wall bangers were little blocks that clamped onto your cables and bumped into each other when set to stop the cables movement at the draw length you wanted, the wall they produced was just as solid as a limb stop bow's wall today. the other way was to use wheel diameters that simply ran out of rotation when set up with the right cable length and string length. you simply could not pull the bow any further than the diameter of the wheels allowed the string cable to unreel. which produced a wall similar to a cable stopped bow today. so good firm walls existed back then, they just weren't standard equipment found on every bow as it is today.
the main difference between the knowledge of these ways from back then, compared to now, is that the internet didn't exist, and the knowledge was restricted in circulation to considerably less people, accordingly. 
at the risk of sounding "elitist", this knowledge was more or less kept within the upper level of the archery community. 
it is one of several reasons that I have said, several times, that "things have not changed as much as people seem to think", when the subject matter turns to the shot execution.
in 1974, when I was taught to shoot spots, one of the first things I learned about was the advantages of having a hard wall to bump up against.


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