# FOC or Spine



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Always spine first. FOC isn't worth worrying about.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Destroyer said:


> Always spine first. FOC isn't worth worrying about.


I giggle every time I look at your avatar.

I had been given to believe that for long range shooting, FOC was very important. You have found otherwise?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

ccwilder3 said:


> I had been given to believe that for long range shooting, FOC was very important.



When the arrow weight is very light, the velocity low, the distance long and the archer is very consistent it might make some difference but I'm yet to find a way to isolate FOC on its own to test that is makes any difference. When you alter the FOC your altering the arrow weight and the spine anyway but people attribute it to FOC.

With the modern fast bows and fairly heavy arrows I don't think balance has enough influence to make a difference..


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Destroyer said:


> When the arrow weight is very light, the velocity low, the distance long and the archer is very consistent it might make some difference but I'm yet to find a way to isolate FOC on its own to test that is makes any difference. When you alter the FOC your altering the arrow weight and the spine anyway but people attribute it to FOC.
> 
> With the modern fast bows and fairly heavy arrows I don't think balance has enough influence to make a difference..



I see where you are coming from. My setup With either weight point will be pretty fast for field. The 75gr will tighten up my pin gap a little also.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep, but it doesn't mean the heavier arrow won't shoot better. To see which one works best for you, keep a log book. Shoot one for a week or two and then shoot the other one. Then check the results. 

Usually I bare shaft tune then stick to that. The problem with all this testing is it depends on your form too, one week your on fire the next week you can be wondering 'what the heck'?


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

I would shoot them both and see what shoots best. Just because a program or chart shows your a little weak doesn't mean they will be in the real world. All of the setups I have shot for the past 3 years for field have shown weak on OT2 but not on the arrow chart CX provides. All of them have shot awesome.

If it was my setup I would lean towards the 100 grain points to start with. Can you cut the shafts down at all? If so that is always a possibility to stiffen them up a touch, you could also add a wrap to stiffen them up a touch if you don't have them already. 

FOC with all carbons, for me anyway, seem to group and track a little better on the heavier end. BUT your at a decent place at 10% with the lighter points. I wouldn't go to crazy worrying about FOC though per say simply because we are talking field not FITA. There are only 4 arrows shot in a round over 65 yds. You don't need perfect FOC to hit one arrow at 80 yds :wink:


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Kade said:


> I would shoot them both and see what shoots best. Just because a program or chart shows your a little weak doesn't mean they will be in the real world. All of the setups I have shot for the past 3 years for field have shown weak on OT2 but not on the arrow chart CX provides. All of them have shot awesome.
> 
> If it was my setup I would lean towards the 100 grain points to start with. Can you cut the shafts down at all? If so that is always a possibility to stiffen them up a touch, you could also add a wrap to stiffen them up a touch if you don't have them already.
> 
> FOC with all carbons, for me anyway, seem to group and track a little better on the heavier end. BUT your at a decent place at 10% with the lighter points. I wouldn't go to crazy worrying about FOC though per say simply because we are talking field not FITA. There are only 4 arrows shot in a round over 65 yds. You don't need perfect FOC to hit one arrow at 80 yds :wink:



That 80 yard bulls-eye does a very good job of avoiding my arrow. Just once I"d like to surprise it. 

I'm going to shoot in the state international round championship in a couple of weeks and hence my concern. I'm going to start shooting the new arrows tomorrow. I will try both and if I see a noticeable difference that's the one I"ll go with. Otherwise I will go with the 75gr tips. They will put me at around 295 fps and will tighten my pin gap a bit.

Thanks for the replies.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

ccwilder3 said:


> I'm going to shoot in the state international round championship in a couple of weeks


Good luck.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

I hear ya.

The difference in your pin gaps between the two different points will actually be very minimal. There is actually very little difference in gaps between a setup shooting 280 fps and one shooting 300 fps. 

Last year I shot a 330ish grain arrow for field and I used the same bow and sight for hunting but I used 375ish grain arrows for hunting. I used the same tape and just moved my sight in one hole and was dead on at every distance. I actually did the same thing this year but was using a setup that I shot 288fps with for field and 272fps hunting. 318 grains vs 380 grains. I moved my sight in to get them to match and to get my peep to line up right.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Destroyer said:


> When the arrow weight is very light, the velocity low, the distance long and the archer is very consistent it might make some difference but I'm yet to find a way to isolate FOC on its own to test that is makes any difference. When you alter the FOC your altering the arrow weight and the spine anyway but people attribute it to FOC.
> 
> With the modern fast bows and fairly heavy arrows I don't think balance has enough influence to make a difference..


'Totally disagree. Ask anyone that shoots long distance what their FOC is.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Spotshooter2 said:


> 'Totally disagree. Ask anyone that shoots long distance what their FOC is.


A difference of opinion! This can be good. 

Spotshooter2, what has been your experience? Have you found a certain FOC to be better? I am open to all opinions on this.

I cannot shorten these arrow any more than they are and I cannot reduce my bow weight anymore. It is a 60-70 lbs'er and I have it at 55 lbs right now.

Maybe I will be shooting good enough tomorrow to be able to tell a difference when I try the different field points. I will just shoot groups from 60 yards and see which is happiest coming out of my bow.


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## bowhunter_va_28 (Apr 28, 2003)

I shot 85 grain tips on may ACCs last year. I shot my best field scores ever, both BHFS and FS with an FOC of 10.26%. My total arrow weight was 333.3. However, my arrows were "in the green" in OT2(toward the stiff side). I would back your bow down (I know you don't want to) to get the spine right or buy new arrows. 

My opinion only.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

Different arrows require or I should say work better with different FOC. Aluminum you can use less carbon you can or need more generally. ACCs for some reason fall in between the two groups. I usually have better results or can have better results with ACCs shooting lighter points or a lower FOC then I can get away with all carbon shafts. 

My best shooting ACC setup were 3-28s with 87 grain points in the 26-26.5" range. 3-39s work best for me in the 26.5-27" range with about 110 grains. I have. I idea what the FOC was on those shafts. Nor did I care really they were spined ok and shot awesome. 

With standard size all carbon shafts I generally always use around 90-110 grains depending on what works best. 

With my smaller carbon shafts like ACEs, X10s, Nanos and Medallions I prefer to be in the 13% range. That's what groups best for me. It doesn't have to be 13% it can be more or less but I want it around that. If less weight shoots better for a given setup then that's what I will shoot if more works better then great. 

My 530 NanoXRs have 110 grain points in them and are in the 13.5 range of I remember right. My 490 NanoXRs are a touch lower just because they are a little heavier but they also have 110s in them. My 530 Medallion Pros have 100 grain points but are still in that 13% range because they are cut shorter. 

I think both points will work for you fine. But I really think that the 100s are going to work better for a couple reasons one of them being a better spine match the other being a better FOC  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Ok,
There's something that really puzzles me about carbon shafts and FOC. I set up a dozen HV 350's to shoot in Florida ASA this past week. I was shooting 50# with 80 grain points and 27" Carbon to Carbon, and they are totally off the chart stiff. I only had about an hour to sight in this mess, but at 40y( which is Max for Super Senior), which I shoot, I shot off four pin nocks in about thirty minutes. These group really tight. Is this out of the ordinary? Also couldn't get full bores to even come close to shoot indoors until I lightened up the points. What gives? What properties in the carbon arrow make them tune fairly backasswards from what I've always done????? Am shooting off a blade. Inquiring minds what to know.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm not really sure why they react the way the do. I think it is mostly because carbon does not react the same way that an aluminum shaft does when it leaves a bow. It recovers MUCH faster and even the same spine rating on two shafts don't flex or react the same way when comparing the two materials. You can get away with not having a ton of point weight because of how fast they recover, but also because your only shooting them at indoor and 3D distances of 40 yds or less. You don't need a high FOC for an arrow to group well at those distance. Heck I remember when I first started shooting 3D I had some 2613s or 2512s that I had 50 grain points in. They didn't last very long because I broke them all up sighting them in :chortle: The first day I shot them I had 2 robin hoods the first two ends at 40yds and one at 30yds and I only shot 3 arrows at 30.

I have had the same or similar experiences with stiff carbons though. Or at least ones that were a little stiffer then needed for my setup, the ones I am shooting now indoors are actually the stiffest carbon I have ever shot. I used to shoot CT Hippos for 3D the first go round I shot 500s cut short with 90 grain points and they shot incredible for me. When I went back to shooting them a couple years later after I started shooting again I bought 400s since I wanted a little heavier arrow since the main use was going to be indoors. They shot good indoors with the 150 grain points I had in them, but they didn't really shoot as good as I wanted them to or thought they would. So I pulled the points and put some Easton nibbs in them that weighed around 108 grains. They shot AWESOME, it was like I had a totally different arrow.

The X Jammer27s I shoot now are very stiff also, while I do use 210 grain points in them the spine that they are if they were aluminum I would be shooting 250 grain points in them maybe more. I think with them being as light as they are (7.5 grains per) going with a super heavy point messes things up as far as how they react coming out of the bow. These XJammers are the most forgiving shaft I have ever shot indoors. I am not shooting the same scores indoors as I did last year simply because I am not really shooting much right now, but the difference is only a couple Xs. I was shooting in the mid 50s last year and now my X count is in the low 50s which isn't bad considering I have really only shot 4 or 5 times since Aug. I just don't have the shooting energy right now to shoot 5 arrows per end. I usually shoot 3Xs and then it gets iffy lol

With FullBores I notice a lot of people trying to build and shoot them like they are a 2712 because they are the same size and they are having issues. But they aren't the same spine as the 2712. In fact they aren't close to the same spine. You can get them to work if your a really good shooter with heavy points like Reo did last year. But most people are going to have much better results with lighter points. I spoke to Keith Trail about this last year at LAS and he said the same thing. He tried them with heavy points and they shot ok, when he went to a lighter point he was MUCH happier. If you build them like they are a 2314/5 you will probably have much better luck since they are the same spine. If I were to build a set of Full Bores I would shoot a point in the 150 grain range. But 100s would work for sure since they are only a 350 spine and are fairly light. 

So in my opinion they tune backasswards because they are totally different then what you are used to. I don't know if you play golf or not, but if you do it's kind of like comparing the drivers from old that had little heads to the big head ones of today. You can't tee the ball up the same way and expect the same results. You have to adjust the tee height or your going to have issues. 

That's my thought anyway :chortle:


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Some one told me once that aluminum cycled all the way to the target. That's why you need a fairly heavy point. It acts like a harmonic balancer. ACC's cycle twice and that's it, so you don't have to have as heavy a point, and carbon only cycles once and that's it, so FOC doesn't mean squat. When I first heard it, I thought it was just a tall tale, but I'm beginning to think this guy knew what he was talking about. :cocktail:


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

That is probably close to correct. But I would leave the FOC not meaning squat out of the statement as I don't buy that since all I shoot for field is carbon and I have shot low FOC setups and they don't shoot as well over 40yds. BUT just because you don't have a heavy point doesn't mean you have low FOC either. :wink:

When I first starting shooting 530 Nanos my buddy had built them with 90s. They shot real well, but they didn't group nearly as well as they do with 110s. Not even close.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Kade said:


> That is probably close to correct. But I would leave the FOC not meaning squat out of the statement as I don't buy that since all I shoot for field is carbon and I have shot low FOC setups and they don't shoot as well over 40yds. BUT just because you don't have a heavy point doesn't mean you have low FOC either. :wink
> 
> So True. My 600 VAP with 80's in front have over 13%


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## hoyt_shooter55 (Jan 21, 2010)

I had issues with the full bores myself and got rid of them very quick. I love my 2712's, but I'm ordering some GT XXX's tomorrow and wondering how I should set them up. I shot some Harvest Time Redemption's last night and shot a pretty descent 59x round with them. They were full length with 150 pro points. Should I set the XXX's like this or cut them off?


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