# Equipment History



## Coiner10 (Aug 14, 2012)

I'm not sure about where to read, but archery tv on YouTube has quite a few videos about older olympic stuff.


----------



## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

Not sure about arrows, but Tony's book "Shooting the Stickbow" has a nice section on 60s era target recurve bows.


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

rick11743 said:


> Not sure about arrows, but Tony's book "Shooting the Stickbow" has a nice section on 60s era target recurve bows.


Doesnt have to be just arrows. That was just an example that came to mind haha. Ill check out the book.


----------



## elarock (Nov 15, 2012)

I remember stumbling on this site awhile back. I think it might have some of the info. you're looking for. They have sections on recurves, compounds, long bows, arrows, sights..even rests and quivers that were used in the past. 

http://www.archeryhistory.com/index.php


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I don't recall ever seeing much technical detail about equipment before the advent of carbon arrows. There was certainly not as much variety as there is now.

During the '70s, almost all the serious top archers were shooting Hoyt TD2s, or Yamaha YTSLs, and either X7 or XX75 arrows. The XX75 2114 aluminum was very popular, along with the X7 2014 in the more common draw lengths. You;d occasionally see another bow brand like Wing or Nishizawa. Sometimes archers would shoot 16-wall aluminums, but not many.

The first 1300 in recurve was Darrell Pace, in 1975, (1315 I think) and within a few years several other archers were just breaking into 1300s - McKinney (USA), Ferrari and Spigarelli (Italy), a small handful of others. Pace and McKinney shot their big 1341 and 1329 in Japan in 1979 with (I think) 2114s.

Also in the mid 1970s - V-bars, Mylar vanes (Spin Wings), and possibly the most important thing, bows that came in colors other than white or black.

If you have any specific questions about that era, let me know - I remember it better than I do what happened last week..


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and possibly the most important thing, bows that came in colors other than white or black.


lol!


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

What kind of draw weight were they shooting back then?


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Low to mid 40s (for men). Rarely over 50 - there wasn't much in the way of physical training going on. I seem to remember first hearing the word "aerobic" in the late 70s.

Women were shooting in the low to mid 30s.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ars- 

Stash is correct, and a lot of us remember those times (and equipment) quite fondly. And no, the weights really haven't changed that much. 

IMHO, while the equipment is "technically" better today, there was some pretty impressive shooting going on back then. Somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I still believe that in the hands of a top flight shooter, some of that "vintage" tackle would hold up quite well today as well, at least in some venues. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm wondering what spine aluminum arrows I'd have to shoot outdoors to 90 meters. I don't think 2114's would cut it for a 32.5" draw. 

Man, I'm glad I get to shoot carbons at that distance now!


----------



## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Yes the Hoyt TD2 was on my wish list. But somehow I ordered a Black Widow 1300, which was $50 cheaper than the Hoyt TD2 if I recall properly. Back then Yamahas were not easy to find and more expensive than Hoyts. Another good bow was a Black Widow 1200 and 1225. In any case my part time minimum wage student job couldn't afford the Hoyt or Yamaha. 

As for arrows, there were only 2 choices, x7 and xx75. The non anodized 24srtx soft aluminum shaft was on the way out. You looked for a 14 wall outdoors. 16 wall indoors to take the abuse of side strikes. The back end of these arrow were tapered aluminum and there was only one kind of nock, Bjorn glue ons. Since the back of the arrow was tapered aluminum, they were damaged by rear strikes. That meant more glue for the next nock. For points we only new they were NIBBs, didn't know the weight and never heard of FOC. Everyone dropped feathers for outside and then the debate was 2" vanes or 3" vanes.

The best sight was a "Chek-it", no question. And stabilizers were what ever you could make, often by your friend in grade 10 metal shop.

Strings were dacron and then this "wonderful" light material called kevlar was introduced. A kevlar string lasted about 1000 shots and then broke, ka-bang. Limbs were "glass" and wood. Never recall a limb delaminating but many shooters on the line had twisted limbs. No limb alignment possible with bows at that time, but some experimented with shims. 

90m was a long way. I used a pencil in my teeth to reach it, aiming on a tree branch above it.

70s were tough to get to 90m. And when Rick and Darrell started to post up 1300s well and lot of others went back to school instead and hung up their bows for a while. Then a miracle bow started to take hold, with 4 wheels. Wham power distance and accuracy at 220 fps +. Birth of a new era and new equipment class. 

Been a rush thinking about this. Happy to shoot the new technologies now, and have a few times shot better now than back then.
Cheers!


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Great stories all! I should show this thread to some of the guys I shoot league with. They are afraid to move back to 90 meters even though they are up to 46# limbs and shooting ACCs


----------



## EABB (Sep 23, 2012)

cc46 said:


> Yes the Hoyt TD2 was on my wish list. But somehow I ordered a Black Widow 1300, which was $50 cheaper than the Hoyt TD2 if I recall properly. Back then
> 90m was a long way. I used a pencil in my teeth to reach it, aiming on a tree branch above it.


This remind me what my coach used to tell us when i was a kid: " don't aim to the clouds, those move! "


----------



## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I'm wondering what spine aluminum arrows I'd have to shoot outdoors to 90 meters. I don't think 2114's would cut it for a 32.5" draw.
> 
> Man, I'm glad I get to shoot carbons at that distance now!


That reminds of two stories that Butch told me almost twenty years ago. I was 16 or 17 and complaining about not getting enough speed because of my then short draw length. He responded with something along the lines of, "shut up, 15 years ago a long draw length was a bad thing and I still shot good scores."

The second story is about the first time he got sponsored arrows from Easton. I don't remember the exact words he used but the story was he received five or six dozen 2114s or maybe 2216s but either way they were under-spined for his draw length and weight, but he felt like he had hit the arrow lottery and he didn't want to send them back so he just "made them work."


----------



## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

You can actually find some good deals (some rip offs too) and see some interesting stuff on ebay under "vintage recurve bows", not only bows also but 60s era recurve sights.


----------



## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Wing presentation I and then the takedown II model. 35 lbs was the average shooter draw and most of us experimented with bearglas arrows and then Easton xx75. No one shot sights with an extension and stabs were really new for all of us. Gosh I am feeling old but it was only 1968. Gar


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i had the wing presentation II and the black widow HP-1225 way back then but used them only for short distances up to 50M so never had to deal with 90M or even 70M....

....IIRC i used 1716 easton 24srtx arrows at the time....


----------



## outpostdavve (Jan 23, 2011)

Here's a couple of old Widows I own. The top is a 1976 "2600", the other a 1975 "T-1300" complete with Wilson brothers "arrow flight control" rest. I also have a 1961 Wing Presentation called "the outlaw" bow because its multiple overlays on the belly of the riser could be used as a sight in barebow classes. My favorite old shooter is a Yamaha YTSL-II complete with Killian "T type" target sight. It's still a very respectable shooter.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> 90m was a long way. I used a pencil in my teeth to reach it, aiming on a tree branch above it.


Yea. Ask archers today to do something like this, and let the high-pitched whining begin. 

We've gone from aiming at flags at 90 meters to 300 fps. compounds shooting 50 meters. What an advancement for the sport... 

John


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

outpostdavve said:


> Here's a couple of old Widows I own. The top is a 1976 "2600", the other a 1975 "T-1300" complete with Wilson brothers "arrow flight control" rest. I also have a 1961 Wing Presentation called "the outlaw" bow because its multiple overlays on the belly of the riser could be used as a sight in barebow classes. My favorite old shooter is a Yamaha YTSL-II complete with Killian "T type" target sight. It's still a very respectable shooter.


Wow those are really short risers. Were they all that short before? Or were there still 25" risers?


----------



## outpostdavve (Jan 23, 2011)

Arsi said:


> Wow those are really short risers. Were they all that short before? Or were there still 25" risers?


Don't know Arsi, The A.M.O. bow length is 69" with a 21" riser on the T-1300, and 65" on the 2600. My 1961 Wing is a one piece wood bow and I believe it's 68". The Yamaha is from around 1978-1980? It's more in the current style of ILF but the limbs are not interchangable. It's 68", and without looking I would say it's a 25" riser.


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Hoyt marked their TD and TD2 risers as 24, 20 or 16". The 16 was a "hunter" bow. They also had the short, medium and long limbs to make 66, 68 or 70" bows on the 24" riser. I don't recall a YTSL or YTSLII short riser.


----------



## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I think it was 1981 I bought the new Bear Formula Gold. I loved that bow my first metal riser. Wish it was still around. I shot the Atlantic city classic. What a great tourney.


----------



## dropbear (Dec 23, 2008)

The Yamaha YTSLII came with a short and long riser for right handers and only a long riser for left handers and you then had either short, medium or long limbs to make up the bow size you wanted.

Risers were either* short* around 23"or* long* around 25" (not sure of the exact size ).

*Right handed short riser would give you a:*
64" bow with short limbs 
66"with medium limbs 
68"with long limbs

*RH long riser:*
66" with short limbs
68" with medium limbs
70" with long limbs

*Left handed riser:*
66" with short limbs
68"with medium limbs
70"with long limbs


----------



## dropbear (Dec 23, 2008)




----------



## aussie (Jul 15, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Yea. Ask archers today to do something like this, and let the high-pitched whining begin.
> 
> We've gone from aiming at flags at 90 meters to 300 fps. compounds shooting 50 meters. What an advancement for the sport...
> 
> John


How sad is this, the de-skilling of a sport to try to get it into the Olympics.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Late 60’s and very early 70’s if memory serves me correctly. Most used two stabilizers (top and bottom) or just one center stabilizer. Sights were mounted on the front or rear of the riser. There were no side mounts like today. When Chek-it introduced the side mount design in the early 70’s, John Williams introduced the 3 stabilizer concept top, bottom and center. This eliminated the torquing action created by the side mount design. Others started putting a heavy weight on the back bottom riser for better balance. Most aluminum arrows used during this period were the 16 and 18 walled shafts. Part of the reason was that they were heavy which helped with less wind drift or that was the theory. Ed Eliason started using the 14 walled x7 around the mid 70’s and changed everybody’s thinking. I am not sure what Darrell used to win the 1975 world title but I am sure it was at least 46 or 47 pounds. You needed at least that much to get the distance with aluminum arrows. I used 51 pounds to win the 1977 world championships with 2115 x7’s. 1972 was when Earl came out with the TD1. The Black Widow bows and Hoyts were the only two major bows used. Few used Bear bows but they were too slow. Steve Lieberman was the main guy to use Bear. Ed Eliason used a Darton Executive in the 1972 Olympics. Yamaha came out in early 76 (in the US). Doug Brothers was one of the first US archers to use the Yamaha. I used it to win the 1977 World Championships. Then Luann Ryon and Ray Burk started using it. After that, Allen Rasor used with the help of John Williams who was the sales manager of Yamaha. Darrell Pace used the first v-bar for the 1975 World Championships. I hated the v-bar at first because it caused the bow to react differently than what I wanted. If you see any photos of me shooting the 1975 World Championships you will know why. I loved an aggressive forward moving bow. The v-bar (which was attached directly to the riser and set about 45 degrees down and 45 degrees out) caused the bow to sit in the hand. I used the first v-bar extender at the 1977 World Championships. Darrel used the first Kevlar string material at the 1976 Olympics with the first ever carbon limbs. I still used wood limbs and dacron string at the 1976 Olympics. I could not get the limbs (Darrell had the only pair available) and the Kevlar string made my 2014’s too weak and the 2115 x7’s were just being introduced and were too stiff for my setup. When I switched to the Yamaha YTSL I used Kevlar string and the 2115’s worked with a fairly high brace height. I had the slowest bow on the shooting line at the 1977 World Championships even with a 51 pound bow. Most of that was due to my setup. High brace height and a bit stiff arrows, but they did group nicely. I think it was around 1979 that the Italians used the rubber attachment to the end of their long stabilizer, which was a great concept and still is. The carbon arrows were first introduced in 1983. My best score with aluminum arrows was a 1334. Darrell’s was the 1341. Darrell was the first to use the spin wing vanes. I used feathers in the early 1970’s because the only vanes available were the hard vanes and I could not get clearance. I switched to the PSE soft 2.6” vane in the mid 1970’s. Darrell originally used the hard vanes, then in around the mid 70’s he shot the spin wings. I tried them and was not impressed by them. I didn’t use them until the 1985 World Championships, which gave me a great performance. I used semi-rigid vanes for the 1983 World Championships. All three medal winners in the men’s division used the new A/C arrow. This was also the first time that all 3 arrows shot over 1300 both rounds. The Korean girl who won the 1984 Olympics used the aluminum fluted arrow by a guy out of California, Karl Lekovitch. A very unique system with lots of potential but was eventually buried, similar to the Beman Diva arrow. Both good arrows but a very powerful company didn’t want them around. In 1987 the Beman Diva arrow was introduced at the World Championships and dominated the medals. The ACE was designed because of the success of the Beman Diva in 1987. The Beman Diva arrow dominated until they filed bankruptcy and was purchased by Easton. Then they became impossible to get thus the ACE and then the x10 became the dominant arrows. The last archer to win with a Beman Diva was the 1997 World Target Championships in Canada. Beiter nocks were introduced in 1986. They eliminated the swage design that was used for years. The swage was even used with carbon arrows at first. They were inserts then they put the nock on top. Beiter came out with their insert type nock, which were far more accurate. Fast flight string was introduced in the early 1980s, thus the string breakage was eliminated overnight. Kevlar and fast flight material caused a lot of limb tip breakage. Thus the limb tips were beefed up a lot. W&W came up with an extremely accurate limb tip consistency in the 1990’s. Hoyt struggled with this until they saw how W&W fixed the problem (they were thinking to buy W&W thus full disclosure). Unfortunately the idea was copied and now the Hoyt tips are fairly consistent too. Foam limbs came out in the mid 80’s. They helped give more consistency which weather had a major affect on the performance of wood/glass limbs of that time.


----------



## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> Unfortunately the idea was copied and now the Hoyt tips are fairly consistent too


Actually, Rick, Hoyt uses a completely different method from anyone else in the industry.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

when I was 12 or so I really became interested in archery. first started at a summer camp. My father didn't know much about archery but his mother (who died before I was born) was an avid "archery golfer in the 20s and 30s and an ancestor of my mother's was the husband of famed archer Lida Howell who dominated target archery in the era around 1900. So dad bought me a bear Panda at a local sporting goods store. later he took me to E Bud Pierson's range for a couple lessons with Mildred and Charlie Pierson. I tried some bows and wanted a bear (Rick was right-they were too slow). Charlie didn't have one in stock so my father went up to Vic Berger's place in Springfield (Vic shot the bear TD). The bow he got me was a white C Handle with two sets of limbs-a 70" bow which was 38 pounds. The sight was an omni-Jeffrey that mounted on the back of the bow and could be angled down for longer distances. I had a long aluminum stabilizer and a chrome bear back weight-the backweight was filled with rubber like material. I had the high wrist grip which was popular then.

At Piersons I saw people shooting Bears, the Hoyts and the real neat A line Wilson Black Widows. I also saw people shooting one piece wood handle rigs like the Pearson that had the mercury capsules in them. Someone later had some neat bow-I believe a Howatt that had a grip that was set back from the bow, Charlie also had a sabo bow hanging next to the door in his range that was a shoot through design. 

I started with Herters (a big mail order catalog) fiberglass arrows than "Microflite" glass arrows. My father was on a business trip in the south and stopped by a place called (IIRC 40 years ago) Southeastern ARchery and bought me a couple dozen silver X7 arrows 1816 I recall. I could hit 90 by aiming at the top of the flag.

Some of the other bows I remember was a "Dickie Roberts" and a Darton. Steve Robinson showed up at the 2000 Ohio indoor with some Darton bow he had once been given when he was a PAA star many years ago. My father took me to Oxford to watch Darrell win one of his titles. We used to see Darrell practicing at the GE Park on SR 747-(about 18 miles north of Cincinnati) on our way to a hunting club Dad belonged to. He'd be there early in the morning and still there in the afternoon. A year before Darrell won the 1975 Worlds, Dad commented that if "that boy doesn't win the gold medal something is wrong". he took me to watch some event at Miami to "see the guy we see at the GE park win.

After Pierson's in Sharonville closed I switched my attention to skeet shooting but I would go to Larrell Dick's primitive weapons arena on the east side of cincinnati in the early 80s when I was home from Yale or Cornell Law. Doug Brothers was a fixture there and he showed me the new Yamaha bows and later the carbon arrows that had become popular. Larrell painted my white C handle (that I would shoot at PWA) the blue color I had originally wanted. I was still using aluminums-then gold XX75 I got from Merritt Compton's shop in Ithaca NY. By then compounds were the rage and many people looked curiously at my 12 or so year old bow I'd shoot up at Cornell.

after that I was too busy as a young lawyer for archery and when I got back into it in the early 90s It was compounds. But I still have that bear, though I have not shot it in 17 years.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

My bad gt...I am sure it was pure coincidence that hoyt came up with this after the visit to the W&W plant.


----------



## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Yea. Ask archers today to do something like this, and let the high-pitched whining begin.
> 
> We've gone from aiming at flags at 90 meters to 300 fps. compounds shooting 50 meters. What an advancement for the sport...
> 
> John


My feelings exactly as someone who shot barebow with a recurve in the 50s and 60s at 90 meters. Now I constantly see articles about archers trying to shoot over 50 yards with a 2017 compound.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Those years were for power shooters only.I Remember Giancarlo Ferrari shooting Hoyt limbs with 54# mark on them. No way to shoot 90 mt with Aluminium arrows with less than 42# on fingers. I have a tall face, so I was lucky to be able to shoot 1916 XX75 at 90 mt with 44# ...only. Preferred the 16 wall to the 14 one because of better down range velocity ... Theory around at that time (and still now) is that hevier is better for arrows. It took years for me to relize that speed is better than weight... 
I purchased a Bear Take down around 1974 after my first Yamaha one pc wooden bow, and same was purchased by my wife. The bow was coming with a big TFC and short long rod, but did not have any hole to put stabilizers on top na Bottom. Ferrari was also using Bear at that time, and modified his one drilling holes to add short rods on front top and bottom of it. 
It was a nice bow, but very slow. When I purchased my first Nishizawa TD01 in 1976 (again following Ferrari's choice) with carbon limbs, it was like entering in another world and in few weeks I was able to get the my 1100 Fita Star with it and Kevlar strings (plenty of them in the reality, as of the risk get them breaking any time) 
Then the Nishizawa Formula 2880, and Hoyt TD5 in 1990 followed. And Beman Diva 19, and ACE's 620 ..... Check It sight, Best Archery Mercury filled stabs, Yamaha flip II rest, all thins of past, not necessarily worse than those of today. 
Ohhps, ACE's 620 ar still my arrows, the few times I shoot recurv, but all other things are gone .....


----------



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Probably one of the few times I am OK with a thread being necro'd from four years ago  These are awesome stories. Thanks for sharing everyone!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The Korean girl who won the 1984 Olympics used the aluminum fluted arrow by a guy out of California, Karl Lekovitch. A very unique system with lots of potential but was eventually buried, similar to the Beman Diva arrow. Both good arrows but a very powerful company didn’t want them around.


I bought and used those fluted aluminum arrows around that time ('84) as even at 14 I recognized a good concept when I saw it. They were extremely light for their stiffness. I had been using 2117's up to then. The only problem I had with them was how brittle they were for a hunting arrow, which is all I was interested in at the time.


----------



## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

rick mckinney said:


> i had the slowest bow on the shooting line at the 1977 world championships even with a 51 pound bow. Most of that was due to my setup. High brace height and a bit stiff arrows, but they did group nicely.


lol!


----------



## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

The problem with the fluted shaft narrative from this old thread is, it was Easton building those for Carl for many years, until he got out of the business.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not sure why that's a "problem." You could simply explain that. I don't see why anyone would be surprised as who else would have had the technology at that time anyway?

So what was your take on that design George?


----------



## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Great to read this thread again!


----------

