# Barebow Questions



## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bateman-tc3-three-finger-under-tab.html

This is a good choice for 3 under. The stitching is a big help learning to aim 3 under. 

I would think your looking at NFAA being in Kentucky. And there are several sightless finger classes. Look at the equipment rules. You may choose a Traditional or Bowhunter class.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Just use the tab as-is. If you find you don't like it after shooting a while then you will know more from the experience. I prefer an AAE Elite for stringwalking.

As for the references for stringwalking the best stuff is on YouTube or the forums. Trad talk especially has some amazing stuff posted.
Most people need arrows 2-3 spines stiffer than they would use for Olympic. You don't need expensive ones to start (VAP or even GT Entrada).

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You can use the tab just fine if you take out the spacer and ledge (provided you have one).

Or just get you a Black Widow 3-under tab. They aren't expensive but IMO the are fantastic barebow tabs.

Personally, I just use my bowhunting glove. Nothing says you have to use a tab.


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I'll be shooting nfaa and collegiate. I'll probably try the ksl tab without the spacer at first, and move on to something else if I feel the need. I'll start checking out stuff on YouTube and tradtalk.


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## cHriiSTMaS (Nov 22, 2013)

You can take the spacer and shelf off and replace the leather. A friend of mine had done it. I can post a picture tomorrow 


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## archernemesis (Feb 11, 2014)

Astroguy said:


> You may choose a Traditional or Bowhunter class.


If you are string walking, you won't be able to shoot Traditional or Bowhunter, but you can shoot the Barebow division.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

If you are shooting NFAA Trad style, you don't have to shoot 3 under. As long as the forefinger touches the arrow, you can shoot 3 under, or split flinger. What ever works best for you.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

archernemesis said:


> If you are string walking, you won't be able to shoot Traditional or Bowhunter, but you can shoot the Barebow division.


 Yeah, Thought those long rods might not be the class he was wanting for NFAA. 

I like the WA idea of fitting the bow through a hoop , and shoot how you like.


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## archernemesis (Feb 11, 2014)

Astroguy said:


> Yeah, Thought those long rods might not be the class he was wanting for NFAA.
> 
> I like the WA idea of fitting the bow through a hoop , and shoot how you like.


Me too. So much more straightforward.


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

As far as NFAA classes go, I'm not super picky. Would not having a full set of stabs be a huge disadvantage if I was gonna shoot in a bigger shoot like the Cincinatti indoor? I'd rather stick with one setup that works for everything, but I don't think it would be a problem to set up stabilizers for a big shoot.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Unfortunately, there is no barebow setup that currently works for everything. It's a big problem with barebow in the U.S.


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Unfortunately, there is no barebow setup that currently works for everything. It's a big problem with barebow in the U.S.


That's what I'd thought. Since (at least for this season) I'll only be shooting usca and nfaa, it won't be a huge deal to switch between stabilizers and whatever usca allows. 

Also, I found this video about stringwalking pretty helpful if anyone else is looking for one. The metal plate he put on his tab looked pretty interesting imo. 
https://youtu.be/H1vNBgAn_go


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

If you set your bow up to be WA barebow legal, you will be able to shoot it in WA, NFAA (Trad, Barebow, Recurve), IBO, IFAA, etc. Once you have done that, it all comes down to whether you string walk or not. So shoots that allow string walking, is bounce between string walking and gap shooting depending on the target and distance. If the shoot doesn't allow string walking, I just gap it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mr. Roboto said:


> If you set your bow up to be WA barebow legal, you will be able to shoot it in WA, NFAA (Trad, Barebow, Recurve), IBO, IFAA, etc. Once you have done that, it all comes down to whether you string walk or not. So shoots that allow string walking, is bounce between string walking and gap shooting depending on the target and distance. If the shoot doesn't allow string walking, I just gap it.


Well, that is one solution that some people have chosen. However, they are also giving up 10-15 points to those "trad" NFAA shooters using a heavy 12" stab.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Well, that is one solution that some people have chosen. However, they are also giving up 10-15 points to those "trad" NFAA shooters using a heavy 12" stab.


Ah, but does that 10-15 points really matter? Look at last year's indoor and outdoor scores for barebow (FITA), Trad (NFAA), how many people whose final scores are separated by less than 15 points from the person that placed 1 position higher and 1 position lower? Then of those how many of them have the point differences due to one having more "spaz" shots than the other?

For those who are at the top of the game will be shooting at the level and hardware makes its mark over skill sets. For the rest of us, we are our own worst enemies.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Ah, but does that 10-15 points really matter? Look at last year's indoor and outdoor scores for barebow (FITA), Trad (NFAA), how many people whose final scores are separated by less than 15 points from the person that placed 1 position higher and 1 position lower? Then of those how many of them have the point differences due to one having more "spaz" shots than the other?
> 
> For those who are at the top of the game will be shooting at the level and hardware makes its mark over skill sets. For the rest of us, we are our own worst enemies.


When you used a 12" stabilizer and tuned for it, did you notice any difference at all in your accuracy?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't know anyone who wouldn't want to score 10-15 points higher on an NFAA indoor trad round.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Assuming that your barebow anchor allows you to shoot in the Trad class. My current anchor would make it very difficult to do that. Field anchor, which I'm not giving up, will probably take 5-20 points off my Trad score potential. Nothing like guesstimating 24" on an indoor target. Lol

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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Yeah, my WA barebow legal Trad field setup anchor has me aiming 25 inches below the center of the target. That is one of the reasons I switched to ILF rigs last year. The ILF allowed me to switch limbs from #45 to 38#, and changing my 340 gr 29.75" ACC arrows to 690 gr full length 2315 arrows to get point on without changing my Trad field anchor. But then again, a couple weeks ago I shot my WA legal field setup at our state indoor FITA field championship and string walked it with a 4-1/4 stitch crawl with my tab.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I don't know anyone who wouldn't want to score 10-15 points higher on an NFAA indoor trad round.


I have enough of a week to week variation I couldn't tell if a 12" stab gave me 10-15 points more in score.

I am thinking that unless people are already shooting in the 270+ range it will be hard to tell if a 12" stab is really helping them because the normal shoot to shoot variation can be much greater than the 10-15 points.

If all I shot was NFAA, then I would consider the 12" stab, but since I like to shoot at any tournament I am sticking with a WA legal barebow. Besides, if I was shooting against Martin or Demmer, those 15 points wont make any difference with my placement relative to them.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Please be sure and bring this setup to Vegas &#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;


Demmer said:


> Assuming that your barebow anchor allows you to shoot in the Trad class. My current anchor would make it very difficult to do that. Field anchor, which I'm not giving up, will probably take 5-20 points off my Trad score potential. Nothing like guesstimating 24" on an indoor target. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

2413gary said:


> Please be sure and bring this setup to Vegas &#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;&#55357;&#56876;


Becareful what you ask for. 😜😆

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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

If you shoot trad the 12" stabilizer definitely adds to your score in my experience. I've shot my bow with and without the 12" stab ( with a decent amount of weight on the end ) and I see my groups improve with the 12" stab/weight. May be a combo of aiming off instead of crawling and the 12" stabilizer but there's a definite difference in score between Trad and WA Barebow. I can also get my xbusters to tune much better when shooting trad, I'm not sure yet if it's due to the 12" stabilizer or the not crawling. Need to test it sometime.

That being said, *cough* nfaa add a WA Barebow division where I don't have to compete against compounds *cough*


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Arcus said:


> When you used a 12" stabilizer and tuned for it, did you notice any difference at all in your accuracy?


In 2015 I shot NFAA indoor and field with a 12" stabilizer. In 2016 I shot everything outdoors with a WA legal setup because team trials was my priority. A couple weeks before the NFAA field nationals I decided to go. I just couldn't get comfortable with the stabilizer again, so I stayed with short WA weights.

My practice scores stayed the same. No change. I may stay with the WA weights next year for NFAA again.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> Assuming that your barebow anchor allows you to shoot in the Trad class. My current anchor would make it very difficult to do that. Field anchor, which I'm not giving up, will probably take 5-20 points off my Trad score potential. Nothing like guesstimating 24" on an indoor target. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


No guesstimating about it. When I shot the TFAA state indoor and averaged 280 over two days, I had exactly a 16" gap and took full advantage of that. Anyone want to guess what the distance is from X to X when two blue/white NFAA indoor faces are stacked on top of one another on the bale? 

And I ain't giving up my point-on 50M barebow anchor either. ha, ha.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> No guesstimating about it. When I shot the TFAA state indoor and averaged 280 over two days, I had exactly a 16" gap and took full advantage of that. Anyone want to guess what the distance is from X to X when two blue/white NFAA indoor faces are stacked on top of one another on the bale?
> 
> And I ain't giving up my point-on 50M barebow anchor either. ha, ha.


Well, works half the time. Until they switch. 😎😀

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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

I'm shooting recurve with a higher anchor than last year's field but lower than last years trad. I am a whole target low 40cm pick a point. my scores are same as field setup stringwalking and only about 5-10 off my compound scores. 
I also didn't notice any difference with a 12 stab last year. 

I can't seem to get good arrow flight with 38 pounds to get close to point on.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Can't hardly wait 


Demmer said:


> Becareful what you ask for. 😜😆
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> Well, works half the time. Until they switch. ����
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Half the time is better than none of the time, and if you're clever, you can deal with the switch too. 

None other than Alan Eagleton, after watching me struggle with trying to aim at the 2013 NFAA indoor nationals in Louisville, shooting Trad, said to me "there is always SOMETHING to aim at John."  

Turns out, he was right.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Demmer,

One of the best indoor pick-a-point shooters I ever knew was a Bowhunter class shooter 20-some years ago. He used to dang near aim at the floor. I watched him shoot a 296 or 297 at our state indoor in '93. The guy was scary good.

In a perfect world, you could aim somewhere on the paper. But for NFAA field we're not even aiming on the bale most of the time anyway.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've aimed at the floor before. And at knots in the wood stand, and at target numbers, and at gaps between the stand and the netting, and at tree branches, and at radio towers, and at fences, etc. etc. 

Like Alan said, there is always SOMETHING to aim at. That was some of the best (and most motivating) archery advice I've ever received.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Some day you guys will learn how to get a 40 yard point on with ace's about 195 fps and shoot a 1/2" gap at 20 yards. Works fine for field and indoors. 1/2" at 20yds will put some of us at the bottom spot (16") naturally aiming on the same face is better but if you only have one setup this will work. Quit looking at the arrow and see the gap at the arrow. When you see it you will never go back to looking at the arrow on the target.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

How are you so sure that's not what I'm doing now? 

That's exactly what I do with my hunting rigs.

Different ways to aim for different situations. That's the beauty (and the art) of barebow.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Different ways exactly!


limbwalker said:


> How are you so sure that's not what I'm doing now?
> 
> That's exactly what I do with my hunting rigs.
> 
> Different ways to aim for different situations. That's the beauty (and the art) of barebow.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

What's that saying? Different strokes for different folkes. 😮😊

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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Or the NFAA could join the rest of the world and stop caring where we grab the string.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

grantmac said:


> Or the NFAA could join the rest of the world and stop caring where we grab the string.


LOL. True. And stop calling 12" stabilizers "traditional." LOL.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Just an average shooter here with a thought. I have seen the competitive WA legal Barebow rigs that some shoot and call it a traditional style. You have risers worth many hundreds of dollars that are designed and balanced to shoot without a stabilizer and are also adjustable with various counterweights and a small stubby stabilizer and limbs that are also in the high hundreds of dollars range. Then you walk the string also as a sighting aide and in the same breath say a person that has a lower entry level bow like an SF forged with some axiom limbs shooting a fixed anchor per NFAA rules has an advantage because they use a 12 inch stabilizer to try and make a balanced bow without breaking the bank. This just doesn't seem like a fair comparison to me. I think the 12 inch stabilizer with a fixed anchor is evenly matched to a stringwalker with a stubby stabilizer and counter weighted bow. Just my thoughts though.
Quick edit, just had a thought. Why not make a compromise and make the bows conform to WA standards and drop the stringwalking and make it a fixed anchor with 1 finger touching the nock. That seems like a fair compromise across the board. A little give and take on both sides.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nope. the 12" stab trumps the stringwalking - believe me.

What you describe is what NFAA used to have for their "traditional" division, before some genius came up with the 12" stabilizer rule.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Tell me how does a 12" Stabilizer trump string walking


The Genius


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Nope. the 12" stab trumps the stringwalking - believe me.


Depends on the archer and event.

I don't see why they can't open the division to 12" stab shot with a fixed anchor while also allowing barebows and stringwalking.

Also FYI you can balance almost any non-TEC riser effectively under WA rules. The weights aren't expensive and are a LOT less than a stab.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Interesting , Personally I can shoot much higher NFAA field scores walking the string (450 to 460) and being point on at all distances than I can using a single anchor shooting a gap and only 1 point on distance(420 to 430). I just enjoy shooting the fixed anchor and gap as it is much less technical than counting stitches and strands for each distance all day long. Also shot one of those WD25's they are certainly more stable set up to WA standards than my SF forged with a 12 inch stab. It also might be easier shooting the WA field round barebow, as it has fewer shots and less distances to remember than a NFAA field round. I may be wrong. NFAA shoots 112 arrows from 10 to 80 yards. The WA barebow field rounds shoot 72 arrows with a maximum distance of 50 Meters. I guess we have 2 different setups for 2 different rounds. Again just my thoughts as I do enjoy shooting NFAA field rounds here locally . Haven't see too many WA field rounds locally to even go watch. As far as the 12 inch stab goes it is nice to know that I can take my inexpensive riser and limb combination and make it competitive with the high end bows for around $60 bucks.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Corene1,

To me string walking is a non issue for indoor archery. It's only one distance anyway, so a movable aiming reference is a moot point. Where it's a real game changer, as you've found out, is in field archery. The 12" stabilizer? Meh, not so much.

I had someone not long ago, who doesn't shoot recurves, ask me what the difference between sting walking and gap shooting is in real world terms. He shoots Freestyle (WA Compound). I told him it's the difference between him shooting a field round with and without being able to move his sight. He said that was huge. I agree.

There's a reason why even the people who are great gap shooters (Eagleton and Rogers, for example) string walk in FITA field.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This post is worth two nickels 


J Wesbrock said:


> Corene1,
> 
> To me string walking is a non issue for indoor archery. It's only one distance anyway, so a movable aiming reference is a moot point. Where it's a real game changer, as you've found out, is in field archery. The 12" stabilizer? Meh, not so much.
> 
> ...


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

2413gary said:


> This post is worth two nickels


I'm going to hold you to that.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Now, what would be interesting to see is if I can talk Patrick Seiver out of his 12" stab. He consistently shoots 15 to 20 points more than me. I wonder if he dropped the stab if his scores would drop to the same level as mine?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Depends on the event. Indoors 12" stab is king. Outdoors I'll take the stringwalking. 

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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

But then again, stringwalking scores might depend on how well of a tune you can get. Also... 900 round, stab is king. 

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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

But at what point does one's shooting ability need to be in order to really take advantage of the stab? On a Vegas round, if one is shooting in the 150's, will the stab be able to make a discernable difference? What if they are shooting 180?, or 200?, or 240? or if they are shooting 260? There is a point where one's form is the biggest variable, and the hardware not so much. But as one's skill gets better and better, changes in the hardware starts to make a noticeable difference. I know with me, my form is my worst problem. I have not mastered the shot to shot consistency and mental focus needed to put up good scores. Putting a stab on isn't going to fix my form problem, it will just give me a false hope that my form is better because I get a few more points.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> Depends on the event. Indoors 12" stab is king. Outdoors I'll take the stringwalking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Yea, I'd agree with that.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Now, what would be interesting to see is if I can talk Patrick Seiver out of his 12" stab. He consistently shoots 15 to 20 points more than me. I wonder if he dropped the stab if his scores would drop to the same level as mine?


Doubt it


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Why would you want to shoot 15 to 20 points worse


Mr. Roboto said:


> Now, what would be interesting to see is if I can talk Patrick Seiver out of his 12" stab. He consistently shoots 15 to 20 points more than me. I wonder if he dropped the stab if his scores would drop to the same level as mine?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Why would you want to shoot 15 to 20 points worse


I don't. I just want to be able to use one bow like the recurve and compound shooters do.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

If it was all about getting a higher number at the end of the day I'd just shoot a compound and call it good.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

mr. Roboto said:


> now, what would be interesting to see is if i can talk patrick seiver out of his 12" stab. He consistently shoots 15 to 20 points more than me. I wonder if he dropped the stab if his scores would drop to the same level as mine?


*nope!*


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

Rylando said:


> If it was all about getting a higher number at the end of the day I'd just shoot a compound and call it good.


*
IMHO. High scores are a by-product of good form, a relaxed mind and a Cheshire cat grin. So, when they talk abut high scores...that's what I think they mean. Again, IMO.

I'm gonna shoot the FITA event in Darrington and gapping all the way.....with a grin. *


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rylando said:


> If it was all about getting a higher number at the end of the day I'd just shoot a compound and call it good.


It isn't about shooting better scores??? Wow have I been wasting time tuning and working on my form. Dang


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

equilibrium said:


> *nope!*


Nobody can do that!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I do just shoot one bow


limbwalker said:


> I don't. I just want to be able to use one bow like the recurve and compound shooters do.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

rsarns said:


> It isn't about shooting better scores??? Wow have I been wasting time tuning and working on my form. Dang



It's not like that lol. Yes it's about getting the highest number you can through good shooting but if I just wanted to have an easy 300 all day I'd shoot a compound. Just because of how the bow is a compound will shoot higher scores than a recurve and a trad bow indoors shoots usually better than a Usaa Barebow ( not a nfaa Barebow cause that's a Recurve/compound without sights..)

It'd be nice if nfaa would have a usaa-style Barebow division. Gapshooting with a 12" stabilizer is not Barebow to (guesstimating here) 95%-90% of Barebow archers. And shooting in the Nfaa Barebow division ( full stabilizers and vbars) against compounds is by no means a fair fight. Plus it's not even a Barebow rig, it's a Olympic recurve/compound just with no sights. Turns a lot of possible competition away.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2413gary said:


> I do just shoot one bow


Or just not worry about being as competitive as one could be.  (in good fun)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rylando said:


> It's not like that lol. Yes it's about getting the highest number you can through good shooting but if I just wanted to have an easy 300 all day I'd shoot a compound. Just because of how the bow is a compound will shoot higher scores than a recurve and a trad bow indoors shoots usually better than a Usaa Barebow ( not a nfaa Barebow cause that's a Recurve/compound without sights..)
> 
> It'd be nice if nfaa would have a usaa-style Barebow division. Gapshooting with a 12" stabilizer is not Barebow to (guesstimating here) 95%-90% of Barebow archers. And shooting in the Nfaa Barebow division ( full stabilizers and vbars) against compounds is by no means a fair fight. Plus it's not even a Barebow rig, it's a Olympic recurve/compound just with no sights. Turns a lot of possible competition away.


Sorry Ryland, but a 300 isn't "easy" even with a compound. That's a myth. Kinda like recurve is "easy" compared to barebow. Another myth, as you well know now.

NFAA needs a USArchery/WA division, plain and simple. The reluctance to have one is mind boggling and frankly insulting to a lot of world class barebow archers IMO. And it's pure old fashioned stubbornness that's the only reason I can see they don't. #'murica. LOL

At this point, the trench has been dug, I think.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

rsarns said:


> Nobody can do that!


If anyone can, nobody can.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Rylando said:


> It's not like that lol. Yes it's about getting the highest number you can through good shooting but if I just wanted to have an easy 300 all day I'd shoot a compound. Just because of how the bow is a compound will shoot higher scores than a recurve and a trad bow indoors shoots usually better than a Usaa Barebow ( not a nfaa Barebow cause that's a Recurve/compound without sights..)
> 
> It'd be nice if nfaa would have a usaa-style Barebow division. Gapshooting with a 12" stabilizer is not Barebow to (guesstimating here) 95%-90% of Barebow archers. And shooting in the Nfaa Barebow division ( full stabilizers and vbars) against compounds is by no means a fair fight. Plus it's not even a Barebow rig, it's a Olympic recurve/compound just with no sights. Turns a lot of possible competition away.


That is one of the reasons I shoot NFAA Trad with a WA legal barebow.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Sorry Ryland, but a 300 isn't "easy" even with a compound. That's a myth. Kinda like recurve is "easy" compared to barebow. Another myth, as you well know now.
> 
> NFAA needs a USArchery/WA division, plain and simple. The reluctance to have one is mind boggling and frankly insulting to a lot of world class barebow archers IMO. And it's pure old fashioned stubbornness that's the only reason I can see they don't. #'murica. LOL
> 
> At this point, the trench has been dug, I think.


Its something that boggles my mind that these archery organizations, NFAA, WA regarding Barebow, etc, won't take a division with a healthy chunk of people. It's seriously just more money they can make. They make money if there's just a division of say 5. I'd reckon they'd have some people fly over from other countries to shoot vegas if we had a usaa/WA Barebow division. Again just more money they'd be making they could use to fund themselves or clubs


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Mr. Roboto said:


> That is one of the reasons I shoot NFAA Trad with a WA legal barebow.


And that's a just fine reason. I shoot trad as well but this year caved in and got the stab.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rylando said:


> It's not like that lol. Yes it's about getting the highest number you can through good shooting but if I just wanted to have an easy 300 all day I'd shoot a compound. Just because of how the bow is a compound will shoot higher scores than a recurve and a trad bow indoors shoots usually better than a Usaa Barebow ( not a nfaa Barebow cause that's a Recurve/compound without sights..)
> 
> It'd be nice if nfaa would have a usaa-style Barebow division. Gapshooting with a 12" stabilizer is not Barebow to (guesstimating here) 95%-90% of Barebow archers. And shooting in the Nfaa Barebow division ( full stabilizers and vbars) against compounds is by no means a fair fight. Plus it's not even a Barebow rig, it's a Olympic recurve/compound just with no sights. Turns a lot of possible competition away.


Hmmmm 2 years ago a recurve shooting BB won Vegas shooting against NFAA BB compounds. Last year 2nd and 3rd were BB recurve. Remember when you throw out statistics 87.2% is made up. You would be surprised by the percentage of us that love the NFAA Trad rules


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You would be surprised at the % of us who are still trying to understand why a 12" stabilizer was introduced into a "traditional" division. 

Ryland, if NFAA added a true recurve barebow division, you'd hear a giant sucking sound from the trad ranks by all the top shooters.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

rsarns said:


> You would be surprised by the percentage of us that love the NFAA Trad rules


People who only shoot NFAA when it comes to indoor paper often fail to understand this. There was a lot of discussion about Traditional again at Darington this year. The support to keep the class as-is is huge, from the top down.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

J Wesbrock said:


> People who only shoot NFAA when it comes to indoor paper often fail to understand this. There was a lot of discussion about Traditional again at Darington this year. The support to keep the class as-is is huge, from the top down.


Exactly.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> You would be surprised at the % of us who are still trying to understand why a 12" stabilizer was introduced into a "traditional" division.
> 
> Ryland, if NFAA added a true recurve barebow division, you'd hear a giant sucking sound from the trad ranks by all the top shooters.


Well not to offend but what was the last NFAA shoot at the National level you attended?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Here we go again........ An absolutely shame that we cannot get at least one class of cohesiveness. Divided we stand and unfortunately some cannot understand or see the consequences. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Rylando said:


> Its something that boggles my mind that these archery organizations, NFAA, WA regarding Barebow, etc, won't take a division with a healthy chunk of people. It's seriously just more money they can make. They make money if there's just a division of say 5. I'd reckon they'd have some people fly over from other countries to shoot vegas if we had a usaa/WA Barebow division. Again just more money they'd be making they could use to fund themselves or clubs


I would bet the Vegas Shoot actually nets a loss on the participation/payback to some of the fringe divisions. They might make it up on the larger ones.

Anyway, if you ever want to be elevated to a premiere category with possible outdoor world level participation, you have to get your rules in order, just as compound did. Your current divided house is not the way forward.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Here we go again........ An absolutely shame that we cannot get at least one class of cohesiveness. Divided we stand and unfortunately some cannot understand or see the consequences.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


No we turn a simple advice thread into NFAA bashing and calling respected NFAA leaders sarcastically "geniuses", if you don't like the NFAA rule then don't shoot there. Easy peasy..... of course if you are the self anointed saviour of BB on AT then I guess it's ok.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

>--gt--> said:


> I would bet the Vegas Shoot actually nets a loss on the participation/payback to some of the fringe divisions. They might make it up on the larger ones.


Payouts are based on participation within that division and BB set an attendance peak last year and has been growing over the past 5 years at least


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

rsarns said:


> No we turn a simple advice thread into NFAA bashing and calling respected NFAA leaders sarcastically "geniuses", if you don't like the NFAA rule then don't shoot there. Easy peasy..... of course if you are the self anointed saviour of BB on AT then I guess it's ok.


Before this gets out of hand....
I don't know how anyone thinks I'm the "savior of barebow" let alone myself to think that. 



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Before this gets out of hand....
> I don't know how anyone thinks I'm the "savior of barebow" let alone myself to think that.
> 
> 
> ...


Lol Not you dang it. You should know better than that.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok good. Lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

>--gt--> said:


> I would bet the Vegas Shoot actually nets a loss on the participation/payback to some of the fringe divisions. They might make it up on the larger ones.
> 
> Anyway, if you ever want to be elevated to a premiere category with possible outdoor world level participation, you have to get your rules in order, just as compound did. Your current divided house is not the way forward.


maybe I fail to see how nfaa matters to WA but nfaa is not world Archery's USA affiliate. It has no ties to nfaa at all. 

As far as usaa/WA is concerned Barebow is a united ruleset between many countries, no? GBR, Sweden, Spain, Ireland, Japan etc all shoot Barebow class based on the WA field championships Barebow class as far as I'm aware. The Barebow rule set is very much universal as far as WA is concerned. 

I see no reason why NFAA having different divisions for Barebow is or should be of any concern to WA.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

One last thing before I'm out of this thread.... 
Changing the NFAA trad rules will not and should not happen. Period. Only way to get unified in a correct way is to somehow get a class adopted and possibly on a probationary period to show what can happen. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Payouts are based on participation within that division and BB set an attendance peak last year and has been growing over the past 5 years at least


Yea, but in some people's minds it will always be a "fringe" division.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Well not to offend but what was the last NFAA shoot at the National level you attended?


2013. And when I lived closer to Louisville, I attended every year. NFAA indoor Nationals was my very first national-level competition, and I actually PREFER to shoot NFAA events, but cannot for the life of me understand the resistance to the obvious... that all the world class barebow archers are shooting two different kinds of bows (at least) while all the world class compound and recurve archers get to shoot the same bow day in and day out. Do people not think that has a serious affect on the quality of archery produced by those archers? (hint... it does).

And you can lay off the rhetoric about self-proclaimed whatever. Nobody here said that or even implied it. Good grief. 

Sometimes I think these topics just hit a little too close to home, or should I say, too close to the trench. 

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> One last thing before I'm out of this thread....
> Changing the NFAA trad rules will not and should not happen. Period. Only way to get unified in a correct way is to somehow get a class adopted and possibly on a probationary period to show what can happen.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


This of course, is the appropriate solution. Because when it happens, we will all have our answer and no longer need to speculate.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

The moment that NFAA embraces a WA-barebow compliant class is the instant I switch. I like both WA-Barebow and NFAA Trad. I have been compliant with both for 10+ years in equipment. This past year was my first year attempting to string walk. I am actually liking it quite a bit. But Washington state is a NFAA state, FITA events are rare are far between.

I am really struggling with making a switch to NFAA barebow using a WA barebow to develop my string walking skills for this upcoming season. I like gap shooting and I really like the NFAA Trad, but I am not going to put a 12" stab on my bow to try to get a few extra points. But with the FITA Nationals being in Darrington this year, I am extremely tempted to shoot in the NFAA Barebow style with a WA barebow recurve this year, compete against the compounds, but not worry about scores, but focus on developing string walking.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It's silly we have to choose between one organization and the other, when compounds and recurves don't. Just another reason that barebow isn't taken seriously, I'm afraid. Nobody, not fans and esp. not event hosts, want to deal with a group of archers who cannot agree on the rules. Talk about "ain't nobody got time for that!" LOL


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Exactly either be flexible enough to compete in both US orgs or don't. Easy. I have a couple setups for NFAA/IFAA and for US Archery.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"flexible..."

Can you imagine David Cousins or Brady Ellison's reaction if someone told them they had to change bows every few weeks? 

But somehow it's okay for serious barebow archers. LOL.

As I said, we don't yet know what US barebow archers are capable of as a group, because we have this major obstacle interfering with performance.

When I was learning recurve and training for the US Archery Team, I put the hunting bow down, the barebow (NFAA trad) down and shot recurve exclusively to even have a CHANCE of competing with those who shot recurve exclusively (Butch, Vic, Joe, Jason and others). Whenever top archers prepare seriously for international competition, they tune their bow and then tune themselves to THAT bow. It's the only way you can truly compete at the elite level and have a chance of competing with others who are committed to one single discipline. Elite archers know this.

And Richard, if you think my comments about the 12" stab decision are harsh, you should hear some of the things I've heard others say about it, and about having two different disciplines between NFAA and USArchery. My comments are pretty tame by comparison. Many folks I know won't even bother to shoot both because they only own ONE target bow ,and have no plans to buy another just so they can shoot the other org's events. Nor should they have to.

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, Alan Eagleton is the present day savior of barebow archery in the U.S. IMO.  He changed the landscape and it's been changing ever since. Just my opinion though.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> "flexible..."
> 
> Can you imagine David Cousins or Brady Ellison's reaction if someone told them they had to change bows every few weeks?
> 
> ...


I do not see it as an obstacle, if Dave doesn't retune and check his stuff daily then he wouldn't still be at the top, and I am sure Brady just did to set a world indoor record switching arrows. We can either shoot the same WA rig in both Orgs or make a small switch and retune. Some of my best NFAA scores were without a stab. The current NFAA Trad field and Hunter records were shot without any stab or weight. I believe the animal round as well. No one has broken those with a stab....


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Not saying a stab isn't an advantage just saying it's not everything.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Ren,

Yes, all three AMTRAD field records were shot pre-stabilizer. The setup I shot in Darrington was WA legal. Really not a problem.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

J Wesbrock said:


> Ren,
> 
> Yes, all three AMTRAD field records were shot pre-stabilizer. The setup I shot in Darrington was WA legal. Really not a problem.


Whew. I thought my name had changed, I know I'm old but dang.... lol.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

J Wesbrock said:


> Ren,
> 
> Yes, all three AMTRAD field records were shot pre-stabilizer. The setup I shot in Darrington was WA legal. Really not a problem.


So Jason, how many extra points do you think you would have gotten using stringwalking at NFAA outdoor nationals? is it really such a big issue for those at or near the top? as I understand, Alan shoot just as well gapping, maybe better. I know he shot some FITA rounds gapping last summer.
I've never shot with hmm though to ask.

I really don't understand the issue of allowing stringwalking in NFAA trad. I think the scores at the top have proven either method is in contention for the top. 

the thing about having a separate NFAA class is that the non sighted recurvers won't get to shoot together at tournaments, unless that convention changes as well.. which is a shame as for a lot of us rec archers, thats a big part going.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Whew. I thought my name had changed, I know I'm old but dang.... lol.


LOL. Sorry. Brain fart.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> I do not see it as an obstacle, if Dave doesn't retune and check his stuff daily then he wouldn't still be at the top, and I am sure Brady just did to set a world indoor record switching arrows. We can either shoot the same WA rig in both Orgs or make a small switch and retune. Some of my best NFAA scores were without a stab. The current NFAA Trad field and Hunter records were shot without any stab or weight. I believe the animal round as well. No one has broken those with a stab....


Perhaps, but look at the averages at Louisville pre and post. Not even close for the top shooters. 

But I'm not going to argue this anymore. It's been beaten to death and I think it just got beaten some more...


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

granite14 said:


> So Jason, how many extra points do you think you would have gotten using string walking at NFAA outdoor nationals?


Rob,

That’s a great question, and it really depends a lot on the courses. When you’re string walking all you have to do is set your crawl and aim at the spot. It’s the easiest possible aiming system for field archery (actual bow sights notwithstanding). Two of the best gap shooters in field archery I know are Ben Rogers and Alan Eagleton. Both have set national records in the NFAA, and both switch to string walking for FITA field. There’s a reason for that.

When you shoot pick-a-point, you have to pay attention to a lot more than just the bulls eye. Is the target face canted? Is it tipped forward or back? If you’re shooting the top face and aiming at the bottom one, how are the two positioned relative to each other? If you’re past point-on, are you in a forested setting where you have aiming points above the bale? Or are you aiming at the blue sky? Does the host club use hay bales (which are a mosaic of aiming points) or those plain white sheet foam things? All of this will affect how and where you aim.

To answer your initial question, I’m not sure exactly how many points I lost at Darrington on account of not being able to walk the string. It was a few though. there were a lot of targets I had to walk into the spot. Both systems can be shot to a very high level, but string walking eliminates a ton of potential pitfalls.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

An interesting diversion in this topic is NFAA Compounds vs FITA Compounds.

In the NFAA tournaments, the total number of compound shooters greatly out numbers all other shooting styles combined. Within the NFAA Compound divisions at any NFAA shoot there are at least 6 different compound sub divisions.

But when there is a FITA shoot, the number of compound shooters that show up is a tiny fraction of the numbers seen at similar NFAA type of shoots. (not counting indoors). Has anyone noticed how the number of barebow shooters out number the compound shooters at FITA field, but when looking at NFAA Field, the fraction of barebow/trad shooters compared to compound in like they don't even exists.

People talk about divisions within the NFAA Trad, NFAA Barebow-recurve, and WA-Barebow. Just look at the Compound divisions. Only a fraction of the NFAA compound shooters shoot FITA, and a fraction of the NFAA Trad/Barebow shooters shoot FITA-Barebow. Has anyone else noticed that? 

This division amongst the Barebow/Trad ranks make be even more divisive among the compound divisions if there was a push to have just one compound division within the NFAA. A lot of people trying to protect their own turf.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

The animal record was tied by some dufus shooting a stabilizer and the seniors record too. I just can't imagine how he could look people in the eye.


J Wesbrock said:


> Ren,
> 
> Yes, all three AMTRAD field records were shot pre-stabilizer. The setup I shot in Darrington was WA legal. Really not a problem.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I embrace all archery organizations the same. I look at the rules set my bow up accordingly and then shoot. I wouldn't expect WA to change their rules to conform to IBO rules anymore than I would expect NFAA to change to WA rules. If you want NFAA to change show up in force and take over the division. Bring your WA legal bows to Vegas, Outdoor Nationals Indoor Nationals and Redding. Don't complain that you have to shoot against BB Compound ( there's only about Five of them). We can beat this horse forever here on AT and nothing will change. I hope to see you there.

SHOW ME THE MONEY !


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The way I see it, if you don't shoot both NFAA trad and WA barebow in the same year, you really don't have a valid opinion on the challenge/obstacle it presents.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

2413gary said:


> The animal record was tied by some dufus shooting a stabilizer and the seniors record too. I just can't imagine how he could look people in the eye.


Lol. Guess it could have been a heavily weighted quivalizer instead


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> The way I see it, if you don't shoot both NFAA trad and WA barebow in the same year, you really don't have a valid opinion on the challenge/obstacle it presents.


So you haven't shot an NFAA event since 2013.... just sayin. Sorry couldn't resist. Gary makes valid points. Show up in force and put in for the change


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> So you haven't shot an NFAA event since 2013.... just sayin


OMG are you serious? Ren, don't insult all the folks that compete at the state and local level just because they think spending 1000's of dollars on travel and lodging and registrations to compete for yet another bowl or medal isn't fiscally responsible for them. 

Give me a break. Actually, break my TFAA state indoor record from 2014 and turn around a week later and shoot USArchery indoor nationals and we can talk. 

I love how you like to act like I have no idea what I'm talking about.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> OMG are you serious? Ren, don't insult all the folks that compete at the state and local level just because they think spending 1000's of dollars on travel and lodging and registrations to compete for yet another bowl or medal isn't fiscally responsible for them.
> 
> Give me a break. Actually, break my TFAA state indoor record from 2014 and we can talk.
> 
> I love how you like to act like I don't have any idea what I'm talking about.


Lol. It's ok when you do though? Yet you wonder why you have chased so many away with your arrogance. Lol your record is good but well within reach.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Have another one Ren. I know who agrees with me and you do as well.

When I started to express my opinion of the 12" stab. rule and introducing a common set of barebow rules between USArchery and NFAA, I really had no idea how defensive and deeply personal the comments would get. Over what? A friggin' game.

And we wonder why the "trad" shooters are marginalized. Well, this is why.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Have a good evening. It's a shame we and emphasis on WE can't all just agree to disagree and get on with promoting our sport. I think you wish that also. My objections have been to the attacks or what I see as attacks you make on people who disagree with you. I myself could care less if we have a stab or not, tell me what I can have and I will set it up and shoot. In my very humble opinion we only should have 4 classes in the NFAA, compound, compound BB, recurve and BB recurve.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You accuse me of arrogance, then accuse me of attacks. LOL. Oh well. 

You are correct. There are many of us who would like to promote barebow. I run an active JOAD program that has been pretty successful in producing national and international level barebow archers. To the person, they don't agree with the decision to include 12" stabilizers in the NFAA traditional division, and they would all like to see the WA rules be available in both USArchery and NFAA events, the same way the WA rules are available for both recurve and compound archers already. This doesn't seem so complicated to me. Two of the three WA disciplines are already recognized as they stand, by NFAA. Barebow is the only one that is not. So it's not a stretch to understand (again IMO) why people would want the third of those three WA divisions to be included in the NFAA rules, esp. when IFAA already recognizes them. It appears to many of us that this is simply a holdout by a few individuals for the sake of being able to hold out, but whatever. Introduce another division - barebow recurve - because we can all see the groundswell of barebow interest in the US right now. I think we all know it would be good for barebow to have this. How anyone can explain that not having a common set of rules for barebow between the NFAA and USArchery is GOOD for barebow is beyond me. I want to hear that explanation. 

I express my opinions here openly. Many don't but nevertheless agree vehemently with me on this topic and just don't want to be a target. I don't really care if I am a target or not. Archery is not who I am, but I have enough experience to know the difference and I do speak my mind - for the good of the sport. I have no real dog in this fight. I shot NFAA trad for years before I ever shot WA/USArchery barebow. I didn't even string walk until just a few years ago, but I can easily see the value in a common set of rules (like most everyone else who shoots barebow or follows barebow as a parent or fan). 

It really appears to me as if a few people just have their heads buried in the sand and just don't want to give up any ground as some kind of power trip. Maybe that's not the case, but where I operate and who I know (and everyone here knows them too), it sure seems that way.

I would love to hear someone back up the idea that the 12" stabilizer gained more people to "trad" than it is driving away, at this time of an honest barebow groundswell. 

I have more than one bow Ren. I can set them up and shoot them however the rules are written, and I have before. But I also have many students who only have ONE good target barebow, but would like to participate in both JOAD/AA in the barebow class, and in the TFAA SYWAT series, and I hear the complaining every week. TFAA would have a lot more JOAD/AA barebow archers in their Trad division if the rules weren't so different.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Up here in Washington state, most of the new Trad/Barebow shooters are coming from the FITA/WA side of Barebow.

In general, if they are younger than me, they are shooting WA barebow. If they are older than me, they are shooting the old Trad style, some with stab, and some without.

A common set of barebow rules will happen. The young will grow and outnumber all of us old geezers still holding on to the old rules. It will happen.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Up here in Washington state, most of the new Trad/Barebow shooters are coming from the FITA/WA side of Barebow.
> 
> In general, if they are younger than me, they are shooting WA barebow. If they are older than me, they are shooting the old Trad style, some with stab, and some without.
> 
> A common set of barebow rules will happen. The young will grow and outnumber all of us old geezers still holding on to the old rules. It will happen.


Yup. I agree with that 100% 

The younger folks want to shoot WA rules. And they will eventually, with or without the NFAA.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

2413gary said:


> The animal record was tied by some dufus shooting a stabilizer and the seniors record too. I just can't imagine how he could look people in the eye.


Hey, I know that dufus. His wife is a heck of a coach.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

*Think WA would ever allow archers to gap from their risers? ie. extend the bow arm with a bow in it.
The stab makes for a great third leg for the bow when you are pulling arrows. 
I wonder if, WA is hip for the younger crowd because it's max distance is 50 meters? 
For me personally, I enjoy shooting long shots. 105 yards on a 65cm face or the 88 yarder in Redding. I also shoot 225 yards at golf shoots. 
IMO, if you want the NFAA to change why shouldn't WA also? 
I simply shoot for the most selfish reason of all, because I enjoy it. The challenge is epic and seeing that arrow like a small smooth line flying thru the air. Hearing that sound from your string when your release wa so frigg'n sweet......Looking at your friends faces with wide eyes and then.....you start laughing. Bust'n each others chops as you walk from one target to the next. Meeting some country boys from back East and finding them to be as consumed about non-sighted, finger shooting as you are. Then getting them by one point or better yet...chasing them down and not giving them a moment to breath. You either chasing the guy in front of you or running for your life from the guy behind you.....either way, this is an AWESOME country and I have enjoyed everyone I've met so far.... Remember, good form, a relaxed mind and a Cheshire Cat GRINNNNNNNNN.......ask Demmer, he knows cats. I've seen it. Life is short....*


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> IMO, if you want the NFAA to change why shouldn't WA also?


Well, you're comparing a national org. with an international org., so...

WA is hip with the younger crowd because the rules are simple and easy to understand, because of the hugely successful JOAD program and because of the international appeal it has. Younger folks are interested in feeling connected to worldwide events while the older crowd tends to take pride in doing things differently than the rest of the world.

NFAA will either change or not, their choice. Barebow is going the way of WA rules because of the very successful JOAD barebow achievement program, barebow divisions at indoor and outdoor nationals for JOAD archers, and because collegiate archery now features an ever-increasingly popular barebow division - all played under WA rules. 

It should be rather obvious that two of three major disciplines are left intentionally untouched by NFAA rules as they come from WA (compound and Oly. recurve) and I think we all know the reasons for that. NFAA wants the top, well-known shooters at their events and they aren't going to ask Reo Wilde or Dave Cousins or Alex Wifler or Brady Ellison or Khatuna Lorig to change bows from one week to the next because they know what the reception would be to that idea. But barebow archers are... what were George's words...? a "fringe" division, so it appears that it's okay to make them switch every few weeks if they want to shoot both events. It's not going to hurt their bottom line after all, right?


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Just another thought. I again am an average shooter and even at my level I have different bows set up for different events. I have a wa legal barebow, I have a nfaa legal trad recurve bow. I also have a 3D recurve a hunting recurve and an olympic recurve. Heck I even have a finger compound and a fully sighted compound rig complete with release. You can't tell me that those of you shooting in the upper divisions shoot one bow only and have to change it when you shoot a different class. This having one bow for every class reasoning is not a strong argument, particularly at your level. When a new shooter starts I am betting that they look around and see what their friends are shooting and shoot that class then as they develop and see different styles they may want to try they will add equipment to their arsenal. If I go to a WA event I will have a bow set up properly If I go to an NFAA event I will have a bow set up properly. I am wondering if anyone on this thread owns only one single bow that they shoot every division with. I see this in many different sports. Different rules for different divisions makes sense to me.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Just one last comment before I'm done with this. If you wish to have set rules across NFAA/USAA /WA to allow your and all JOAD children to participate then we also need to make other changes. There is currently no NFAA Trad class below the Adult level, and currently they must shoot in NFAA Barebow with the compound BB shooters. Just a heads up for anyone submitting proposals to the NFAA for the Directors meeting which is this year since it went to every other year. I should say this coming year 2017.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Ren, et all, if there was a proposal for the NFAA to adopt a WA compliant Barebow style/division without affecting the current rules for other divisions, would you support it? Even if it is a provisional change with no awards to see if the numbers are really there?


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

@Corene1 - I only have 1 recurve riser. I do change up my anchor, arrows, tip weights, brace heights, centershort.. its a PITA. As a part time thing, I still choose that over having separate rigs, mainly because I agree with John that you have to tune yourself to the rig. I only have 1 home made wooden grip, but its perfect for me, and I'm not going to try and setup different bows to get the feel.

As far as I know, there is a proposal going in from Oregon for the new class. which is why I have these numbers.

@Gary, some of those WA legal barebows have been showing up at Vegas, at least 30 recurves last year, how many of them would choose to leave off the bars and shoot one bow? I would guess many, because there was only 1 that I saw taking advantage of the clicker rule.. What is the number that is required to be accepted, what goal has to be hit? 

IMO, transitioning from indoor to field happens in time, but if you tell new USAA folks that they need to learn to gap, when they've been stringwalking, many will punt and throw on a sight. 

So, from these graphs of growing participation, I was unable to find the most recent NFAA trends due to the website redo, but the growth percentage is smaller for TRAD, from what I've seen on recent scores.

hopefully this picture shows up. So does the unsighted community want to get this participation increase in NFAA? seems a no brainer to me, business wise, competition wise, community wise.
BTW, there were also WA legal barebowers at Vegas hidden in the recurve flights too. I talked to at least 2 on the practice range.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Just one last comment before I'm done with this. If you wish to have set rules across NFAA/USAA /WA to allow your and all JOAD children to participate then we also need to make other changes. There is currently no NFAA Trad class below the Adult level, and currently they must shoot in NFAA Barebow with the compound BB shooters. Just a heads up for anyone submitting proposals to the NFAA for the Directors meeting which is this year since it went to every other year. I should say this coming year 2017.


That's an excellent point. Consolidating the barebow rules would have the potential of bringing many of our USArchery JOAD and collegiate barebow archers into NFAA events, given there were youth divisions for them.



> You can't tell me that those of you shooting in the upper divisions shoot one bow only and have to change it when you shoot a different class. This having one bow for every class reasoning is not a strong argument, particularly at your level.


Actually, the closer you get to the top of the class, the more important it is that you do dedicate yourself to one rig. I'm going to sound like a broken record, *but top compound and recurve archers know this.* Just look at some of Brady's comments about particular bows he has won with. And that's among a group of bows that are all set up identically. Top compounders readily admit that they have had "one bow" that just performed better than every other bow they have had. And again, that's among many bows that are all equipped alike. So what chance does a top barebow archer have of melding with that "one bow" if they are constantly switching back and forth on a monthy or even weekly basis? Not much. It doesn't show up at the recreational level all that much. But at the elite level, when we're talking the difference between a 287 and a 291 NFAA indoor or a 538 and a 550 indoor fita, you had better believe dedicating oneself to a single bow makes a difference. And learning that one bow is even MORE critical to a barebow shooter IMO than it is a sighted archer. Anyone who has shot a barebow at a decent level knows how tiny little things can affect point of impact.

This is partly why the Europeans kick our butts in barebow - because many of them compete with ONE bow all year. So again, why are barebow archers different than the compound and recurve elite archers? No org. in their right mind is going to ask the elite professional archers to switch gear from one shoot to the next, because they know what the response would be. 

And yes, people participating and viewing this thread do in fact have one single competition barebow that they have to change and retune if they want to switch from NFAA to USArchery events. I know plenty of them who either do this, or they just don't register for one or the other because they don't want the hassle.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great work there granite. Well done. That took some time to put together.

Like I said, the groundswell of WA barebow has arrived. NFAA can either choose to welcome them, or choose to ignore them.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Mr. Roboto said:


> if there was a proposal for the NFAA to adopt a WA compliant Barebow style/division without affecting the current rules for other divisions, would you support it? Even if it is a provisional change with no awards to see if the numbers are really there?


I don't want to stoke the fires, but I think that is the most interesting question. If there are already so many divisions, why not just add a WA compliant Barebow division, call it what you will, and see what happens. If people shoot the division there is a thirst for it. If they don't, there isn't. It would appease the people who want to shoot one bow type without feeling at a disadvantage in a division they don't really fit. It would not impact the division that they try and fit but don't. And it would settle the question after a season or two when the numbers are there or aren't.

It is the division between orgs that weakens us as a whole (archers in general). I have never competed barebow and probably won't. But we are such a small niche sport we really need to kill the infighting and my org/style/division is better than yours. They are all great, just different. We need a common enemy. How about soccer? (JK )


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I did BB/trad last indoor season and I basically went with a WA bow weight setup for the year.

To come at this from a slightly different direction, my experience with the two orgs in Texas was that there was little population overlap between the otherwise naturally adjacent USAA BB and NFAA trad divisions. The two don't mix a lot -- I think Ryland and I were the only people doing both. The stringwalkers were kind of absent from TFAA state, and when they did show up for local SYWATs (NFAA rules) they were in NFAA BB. I know that's what the rules demand but it creates an odd situation where a bunch of good NFAA Trad shooters in our state, hunting/3d types, dominate Trad division but rarely show up for WA, and then the WA BB types don't really do SYWAT/TFAA state and when they do they aren't even in the same division with those good barebow gappers, they are in with Bateman and the compounds, where they might put up impressive numbers but likely in a losing cause.

You have a bunch from Cinnamon Creek who dominate TFAA and then a bunch from John and Lynda's ranges who dominate WA. And the two don't really bump into each other. It begs for unification and/or a WA style BB class in NFAA/TFAA. It's wild to have two sets of quality BB shooters who rarely ever mix. I've gone back to Olympic for a while but my distinct impression was "silly rules differences."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

bobnikon said:


> I don't want to stoke the fires, but I think that is the most interesting question. If there are already so many divisions, why not just add a WA compliant Barebow division, call it what you will, and see what happens. If people shoot the division there is a thirst for it. If they don't, there isn't. It would appease the people who want to shoot one bow type without feeling at a disadvantage in a division they don't really fit. It would not impact the division that they try and fit but don't. And it would settle the question after a season or two when the numbers are there or aren't.
> 
> It is the division between orgs that weakens us as a whole (archers in general). I have never competed barebow and probably won't. But we are such a small niche sport we really need to kill the infighting and my org/style/division is better than yours. They are all great, just different. We need a common enemy. How about soccer? (JK )


I'm on board with that - including the soccer. LOL (played for 13 years, and still don't know why. ha, ha.)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It's wild to have two sets of quality BB shooters who rarely ever mix.


Jay, indeed it is. However I'm getting the impression that there are a few who are just fine with this for whatever reason. Hard to think that reason is growing the sport though.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

In terms of "aren't there already enough divisions" or the sensibility that we'd just be slicing the pie thinner, in Texas in our SYWAT series there were 18 BB and 22 Trad shooters who did at least one tournament. In-state there are a list of people in either division who would scoot over and populate a WA BB division in NFAA. It would be quite popular.

At the national level, I don't quite know, but I would think a WA BB division would be fairly attractive and get a mix of current Trad/BB entrants plus bring new people in. I think the impulse to not do this is either a wrong headed numbers thing, as I explained above, or a silly protectionist impulse over Trad class where it's like we have to save it from being decimated in population if people shifted to WA BB class. Kind of like Oly is the Olympic class in part because I think they freak about how it would be impacted if Compound came in. Which to me is fighting reality. If the market really wants x division, why give them y division instead out of the desire to preserve that division's integrity and tradition? In other words, it's almost more, "what would this do to trad," as opposed to, "how popular would this be." Ironically that's more telling of divisions for divisions' sake than WA BB would probably be.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Corene1,

In 2014 I had only one target bow (we won’t talk about all my hunting bows). I used it to shoot IFAA Barebow Recurve (long rod, v bars, clicker, string walking), NFAA Traditional (short rod, no string walking), IBO Recurve Unaided (short rod, clicker, string walking), and WA Barebow (counter weights, string walking). My nock point tuning ended up the same for all four styles, so that wasn’t an issue.

The only tuning issue that came up was a very slight (and I mean VERY slight) dynamic spine issue changing from a long rod and v bars to a short rod to counterweights. I was able to resolve that with minor plunger tension adjustments. Each setup has it’s own tension setting. I’d just swap out stabilizers, dial in the correct tension and I was good to go. Nothing much to it once you get your setups figured out, but it did require a good amount of tinkering to get the right balance with each setup while keeping the overall mass weight correct to make the plunger adjustments minimal.

In 2015 I bought a backup riser and set of limbs (identical to my main setup) and still switched from a short stabilizer to WA Barebow weights as before. Last year I didn’t even bother with the stabilizer at all. Now this year I have two different setups—one for NFAA Traditional and my former backup is set for WA Barebow. I did this because I decided to go to a different arrow rest for string walking, but I really like the one I was already using for NFAA field.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hey, even if NFAA adds a barebow recurve division, it won't preclude anyone from setting up multiple bows and shooting different divisions, or shooting different divisions with the same bow if they just feel like it. 

I enjoy shooting the NFAA/TFAA trad division and I actually enjoy the art of gapping. It's much closer to how I shoot my hunting bows. Stringwalking is actually a bit of a PITA to me. I just know that when we're talking about truly elite scores, hopping bows and aiming styles does not help. It can only hurt an archer, whether they realize it or not. Folks who hop bows a lot (including me) probably don't realize just how many more points there are out there for them if they spent all their time shooting one bow, one way (you know, like the compound and recurvers do  )


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

If nfaa added a WA Barebow division I wouldn't give up trad entirely at all. I think it's fun enough to do occasionally but I'd for sure shoot the WA Barebow division more. 

By no means should trad be removed. I don't know how many trad would really lose to a WA Barebow division, a handful of trad as is compete in usaa. It'd simply bring more people to nfaa. I really enjoy our SYWAT series and our tfaa state. 

I'd LOVE to shoot vegas with my WA Barebow. I'd bet you we would see a few fly in from across the Atlantic and pacific to shoot it.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Pete,

What I don’t think a lot of people know, or maybe have forgotten, is that the NFAA used to have a class called FITA Recurve Barebow. It died out due to lack of participation, but that was back in the 90s. Maybe there’s enough interest to give it a probationary try again (hey, Demmer, I wonder who thought of that  ).

Maybe I’ve missed it in these five pages, but I haven’t read anyone opposed to such an idea. What I have seen is folks passionately opposed to essentially destroying a class that’s 31 years old (Traditional) and replacing it with something else in the hopes that people who don’t even shoot NFAA will suddenly take an interest. I don’t know why some people can’t promote what they love (WA Barebow) without attacking something they apparently do not (NFAA Traditional). I like old Chevys, but that doesn’t mean I badmouth Fords.

Rob,

While I have no doubt reinstating the FITA Recurve Barebow (WA Barebow) class in the NFAA will bring in some new blood, I don’t know if it will be as big as some think. I hope I’m wrong though; I’d love to see it thrive. Locally we’re lucky that a lot of the USA Archery shooters (mostly Recurve class) will also show up for NFAA shoots like the Great Lakes Indoor Sectionals and local five-spot leagues. But there is—and in my experience has always been—a segment of the USAA crowd that simply will not shoot anything other than USAA-type shoots. They will travel to another state to shoot 18m away at a four color face, but won’t go to their own local club to back up a foot and shoot at a blue face with a white spot. That’s their prerogative, and I’m not bashing them for it. Different stroke and all, I guess.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

USArchery and NFAA are largely different crowds with some overlap. There is good and bad about both org's. NFAA tends to be more cordial and relaxed, which appeals to some, USArchery tends to be a little more formal and strict which appeals to others. I think people become loyal or maybe just familiar with one org. and they keep shooting it, and eventually they find their group of friends they don't want to leave. That's understandable.

I've said for a decade or more that if NFAA had a program like JOAD/AA, I would have been teaching and coaching under NFAA for the past 12 years instead of USArchery. Lord knows USArchery has given many of us JOAD/AA program leaders more than enough reason to leave, many times in the past decade but there is simply no other game in town unless you are involved in NASP. So I continue to do JOAD under USArchery rules.

Here's the issue that I want to see fixed: Right now, in the U.S., we have a different situation for championship barebow events than we have for championship recurve and compound events. All some of us are asking for is to give barebow the same scenario, where an archer can move seamlessly between USArchery and NFAA with the same bow. I think that's only fair, esp. to the most competitive archers among us where it really matters most, but also to the beginners who might only have one target bow but want to experience both org's.

I know a lot of people who shoot both USArchery and NFAA events. I do nearly every year, as do many in my club and in Lynda's club. We love supporting the SYWAT series within TFAA. I encourage my archers every year to go support TFAA and shoot in the TFAA state events, and I hope TFAA folks are doing the same for TSAA events. But for someone who teaches a lot of barebow archers, the rules make it a lot more complicated than those who work with just recurve or compounders.

I'm not trying to take away anyone's favorite division. If I've ever given that impression then I apologize. I enjoy NFAA trad just as much, if not more, than USArchery barebow. But I think for the good of barebow, and for future growth here in the U.S. now is the time to bring barebow to the same place as recurve and compound, within the two main target organizations, finally (or as Jason points out, once again).


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Hey, even if NFAA adds a barebow recurve division, it won't preclude anyone from setting up multiple bows and shooting different divisions, or shooting different divisions with the same bow if they just feel like it.
> 
> I enjoy shooting the NFAA/TFAA trad division and I actually enjoy the art of gapping. It's much closer to how I shoot my hunting bows. Stringwalking is actually a bit of a PITA to me. I just know that when we're talking about truly elite scores, hopping bows and aiming styles does not help. It can only hurt an archer, whether they realize it or not. Folks who hop bows a lot (including me) probably don't realize just how many more points there are out there for them if they spent all their time shooting one bow, one way (you know, like the compound and recurvers do  )



I shoot many different styles and indoors at the State level have shot 3 different styles. Why, because I love shooting and competing. In Washington I would compete even in the BH and BB divisions because of the competition. Do I give up points by not concentrating on one, most likely but it's worth it. Way off topic but not really if we can retune ourselves to each new style, then as Jason stated, it's not difficult to retune slightly with or without a short stab. I at one time agreed with the notion of a standard style for recurve BB/ Trad but until IFAA does I think it's dead in the water. I do challenge everyone who wants this change to contact your State NFAA director and even better show up to Vegas and Cinci this year.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

pete to answer your question I have already pledged my support and efforts for that to others during off site discussions. Even if he is a Steeler fan


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

The Washington State NFAA rep has already told me that he will bring forward a change. But said it would be dead in the water without support from the council members. I tried to chew on Bruce Cull's ear at the nationals about this, and he tried to push me back to our state rep. When I told him, our state rep is on board, he then said I need to get Hubert on board, so he drug me over to him and promptly left. So I am now working in Hubert. I have been originally proposing a change to the Trad class. But after discussions with Jason and John, I am on board with the idea of a provisional reinstatement of the old FITA Barebow class. That is what I am trying to convince Hubert as a route to pursue. I haven't heard back from him on that regarding that idea.

If other people start working on their state reps and council members, maybe we can get the Old FITA-Recurve division reinstated, even at a provisional basis. Then if it does, then it will be up to us to show up and shoot.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and even better show up to Vegas and Cinci this year.


While I know that "feels" good, what % of NFAA members actually shoot these events, and if we're truly interested in growing barebow in the U.S., then why would we suggest to up-and-coming barebow archers that they need to shoot nationals to have a voice? I just don't buy into that logic. For every barebow or trad archer shooting nationals or vegas, there are how many out there in local clubs and colleges? 

Maybe that's not what your suggesting, but I keep hearing this "why aren't you at Nationals" question like it's a prerequisite to have an opinion. Those are just two (very expensive, I might add) events. Here in Texas, a local archer could shoot 20 TFAA events and never leave the state. Should they not also have a voice? Should prospective "customers" (USArchery barebow archers) not also have a voice? You wouldn't run a business that way - only listening to a few loyal customers and ignoring potential customers. If you did, it wouldn't last very long.

As I said earlier, it's not fiscally responsible for me at this point in my life, to spend $5-10K/year traveling and shooting, no matter how much I would like to. Instead, I do everything I can here at home, including 10-20 hours/week to running a JOAD/AA program, a fall indoor league, coaching 4-H archery, providing individual instruction, helping TSAA with organizational issues, running the TOTS series and hosting local events. So while it would be pretty darn nice to jet across the country and just shoot, don't forget about the folk like myself and Lynda who are staying home and growing the sport on the ground. Of course, if I just quit participating on archery forums, that would free up a little more time. LOL.

As for attending major events, right now if I'm going to fork over the equivalent $ of a non-resident elk tag to shoot a single archery event, it's going to be the Lancaster Classic because of how much I would like to support Rob for all he's done for the sport. However, if I were to ask Rob if I should spend $700 to shoot his event or spend $700 on a non-resident elk tag, I absolutely know what he would tell me to do.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

rsarns said:


> I do challenge everyone who wants this change to contact your State NFAA director and even better show up to Vegas and Cinci this year.


I had the same question when Gary said that... what numbers have to be met to get any change?
So what happens if people show up at the national tournaments? I know Bob counted recurves vs compounds at Vegas, but nobody surveyed how many participants are using what on recurve, or how they are aiming. Does that data go anywhere? Does one go there and try to compete, or go there and try to prove a point with lesser equipment (stab)
Nothing will come of showing up to the tournaments, as there is no official process to use any data there for any decisions.
Its about as meaningful as protesting an election when you don't vote


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Just like in USArchery, counting participants at Nationals is IMO a pretty cheap and lazy way of assessing participation throughout the organization. That is not a statistically accurate sample of your membership or a snapshot of what's actually happening on the ground. Nationals are populated by those who are lucky enough to have carved out enough time and money to attend an archery tournament, or by those who just happen to live close enough to the venue to afford to go - kinda like myself and many of my club members who shoot USArchery Indoor Nationals every year because it's 90 min. away in College Station.

Yes, what happens in Vegas and Nationals does gather our attention (Mostly because many of us WISH we were there shooting as well) and participation in that event does demonstrate commitment to the sport. But if 20 people shoot Nationals and there are 2000 members in that discipline nationwide, then what you have is really 1% of your membership represented. I know folks want to feel like they are "more special" because they have shot Nationals, but come tell that to my 10 year old student who loves to shoot archery but can't afford to travel to Waco to shoot TFAA state event. If we're really trying to grow barebow, we have to think of all the members, prospective members and what's good for the future of the sport.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Mr. Roboto said:


> The Washington State NFAA rep has already told me that he will bring forward a change.


Having that on the agenda at all is going to create a huge backlash to any other items relative to WA Barebow. Not a good idea.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

J Wesbrock said:


> Pete,
> 
> What I don’t think a lot of people know, or maybe have forgotten, is that the NFAA used to have a class called FITA Recurve Barebow. It died out due to lack of participation, but that was back in the 90s. Maybe there’s enough interest to give it a probationary try again (hey, Demmer, I wonder who thought of that  ).
> 
> Maybe I’ve missed it in these five pages, but I haven’t read anyone opposed to such an idea. What I have seen is folks passionately opposed to essentially destroying a class that’s 31 years old (Traditional) and replacing it with something else in the hopes that people who don’t even shoot NFAA will suddenly take an interest.


Well, I would prefer a changed trad class. I've shot all the local NFAA shoots since I started with a barebow riser 2 years ago.
I get neck pain on high anchors, so I will forever be at a big disadvantage competitively in TRAD.
So due to that reason, and the fact that I'd like to shoot with my NW buds Patrick and Pete, and others here during outdoor events. I don't want to be separated out by bow type, when the fun of most shoots for me is shooting with your friendly flighted competition. For now that puts a decision on every NFAA shoot for me due to the pain vs bad performance on high anchors. Last year I shot BB against compounds, but would have preferred to shoot with the trad group. My scores with stringwalking BB at our NFAA field are still ranked the same as every other shoot I go to... lower than John and yours, and lower/close to Patricks, close to Pete's scores, which is why I don't see the huge advantage, unless you are on the lower scoring end/beginner anyway. This is why I don't see it as "destroying" but as growing the class.

Maybe it makes a hunter/trad segment upset, but I think that there is also some movement in that area with fixed crawls and such too that could also be included in trad. 

Just trying to explain from my point of view.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

J Wesbrock said:


> Having that on the agenda at all is going to create a huge backlash to any other items relative to WA Barebow. Not a good idea.


There is nothing on the Agenda originating from me, yet. TC supports our cause and said he will bring forward an agenda item if I write it up. He said the problem right now is that it will be DOA unless I can get the council to warm up on it. So right now I am trying to get the NW council to warm up to it.

I have dropped my efforts at writing any agenda item regarding a Trad rule change, because I support the idea of reinstating the old FITA recurve barebow class.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

J Wesbrock said:


> Rob,
> 
> That’s a great question, and it really depends a lot on the courses. When you’re string walking all you have to do is set your crawl and aim at the spot. It’s the easiest possible aiming system for field archery (actual bow sights notwithstanding). Two of the best gap shooters in field archery I know are Ben Rogers and Alan Eagleton. Both have set national records in the NFAA, and both switch to string walking for FITA field. There’s a reason for that.
> 
> ...


So, if this is true for gap/pick-a-point. (being harder) Why can't we here agree to let the archer aim his/her style and not call it out to an official? 

If, what Jason said is true and maybe most would agree, aiming below or above the spot is more difficult, then there should be no threat to a stringwalker. It would however, allow a gap shooter or me, to bring all his/her methods to the table. I for one, have learn a lot over the last couple of years. I don't have one specific way to gap. I use multiple methods. I think you will learn more from watching and listening to the top guys then from direct questions.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

equilibrium said:


> So, if this is true for gap/pick-a-point. (being harder) Why can't we here agree to let the archer aim his/her style and not call it out to an official?


You're talking about the WA Barebow rule against holding your bow at arm's length without an arrow to gauge your aiming point, like a lot of folks do in NFAA Traditional? Yeah, I'm not sure I understand the history of that rule in WA, especially since it's perfectly legal to hold your finger or thumb in front of you to range targets.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I am still waiting for someone to point me to the rule that says you can't do that. I have read through and through the rules and I don't see any where it says you cant raise the bow up in front of the target at arm's length.

I am half tempted to shoot the FITA Field Nationals at Darrington using my Trad Style, and hoping that someone will file a formal complaint so that a formal ruling with pointing to the specific rule that prohibits the practice. Then it will be well known if this is a real rule or just bad interpretation of the rules that pass down by tribal knowledge.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Progress. Like it. Go put out 300 lbs of deer feed and we are discussing something I feel can work. Bring back FITA BB on a probationary basis, which I think should be the two year time frame between director meetings. Leave Trad alone. 


Now why would more people showing up to the big tourneys help? Seriously Bruce and the councilman look at this. Then you make it a point to address Bruce and Brian at the shoot and tell them your ideas and why a change is needed, get your State director to "grease the skids" prior to the meeting.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I understand under the present personnel and structure, that #'s at nationals matter to the present leadership. That's not unique to NFAA. USArchery also uses this as a metric. Perhaps the ONLY metric that matters. And IMO that is a bass-ackwards way of looking at the organization. The #'s at nationals should be a by-product of great service to the grass roots and beginners. The grass roots and beginners shouldn't be at the mercy of the #'s at nationals. Completely backwards IMO, if you're truly interested in serving the membership as a whole.

We fight this same fight in USArchery when the leadership says "show us the #'s at Nationals and we'll keep it" but are they looking at participation all the way down through the membership to the raw beginner? Particularly as barebow advocates, we should oppose that way of thinking since barebow is so prevalent at the grassroots level, but not necessarily at national events. All of us who have shot barebow for any length of time understand fully how shooting "big events" falls way down the list of priorities for most barebow and traditional shooters. So we can't on the one hand argue that barebow is about "having fun" and then on the other hand say it matters how many show up at nationals. I don't think that serves the barebow community very well. 



> Bring back FITA BB on a probationary basis, which I think should be the two year time frame between director meetings. Leave Trad alone.


I would be behind this 100%


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

rsarns said:


> Progress. Like it. Go put out 300 lbs of deer feed and we are discussing something I feel can work. Bring back FITA BB on a probationary basis, which I think should be the two year time frame between director meetings. Leave Trad alone.


This is all I want to see. Exactly as is. Leave Trad alone and bring back a class for a probationary period. I would ask for two voting terms (4 years). I know nfaa would get more participants. Not only would it bring some more in, but it would also raise the quality of these shooters. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

I hate to hijack my own thread, but I finally found the usca barebow rules. It looks like they follow wa rules for recurve and allow only genesis bows or similar for compound. I think, at least for this indoor season, I'm going to shoot a wa legal setup for everything. I don't forsee there being too much barebow competition in nfaa shoots, until I get to the national level at least, so I'm just gonna find a setup I like and focus on shooting it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That'll teach ya to start a barebow thread on the fita forum.  LOL.

Good luck with your decision. I hope you shoot lights out.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

BaconRocks said:


> I hate to hijack my own thread, but I finally found the usca barebow rules. It looks like they follow wa rules for recurve and allow only genesis bows or similar for compound. I think, at least for this indoor season, I'm going to shoot a wa legal setup for everything. I don't forsee there being too much barebow competition in nfaa shoots, until I get to the national level at least, so I'm just gonna find a setup I like and focus on shooting it.


Hope to shoot with you down the road. Good luck with your adventures!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rylando said:


> I'd LOVE to shoot vegas with my WA Barebow. I'd bet you we would see a few fly in from across the Atlantic and pacific to shoot it.


You should and we do have people from all over the world who attend shooting BB


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

rsarns said:


> You should and we do have people from all over the world who attend shooting BB


There is no trad division as far as I'm aware and there's no WA-barebow probationary division like discussed above. I have no reason to go. I don't find competing against compounds enjoyable with my recurve.. and I am not going to buy a compound bow just for vegas. Would rather buy another 27" G1 or a primo set of limbs, if I had money to spend on archery in the first place  but I loop back on what I originally posted. 

No doubt you do, but I mean you'd have some WA-BB archers fly over. Of course it's an international event as is, that's definitely a part of what makes it cool.

More sensible to spend the $$ for traveling to tournaments to go to tournaments where I can shoot my preferred rig ( WA BB ) instead of shooting at what I see as an inherent disadvantage.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Rylando said:


> There is no trad division as far as I'm aware and there's no WA-barebow probationary division like discussed above. I have no reason to go. I don't find competing against compounds enjoyable with my recurve.. and I am not going to buy a compound bow just for vegas. Would rather buy another 27" G1 or a primo set of limbs, if I had money to spend on archery in the first place  but I loop back on what I originally posted.
> 
> No doubt you do, but I mean you'd have some WA-BB archers fly over. Of course it's an international event as is, that's definitely a part of what makes it cool.
> 
> More sensible to spend the $$ for traveling to tournaments to go to tournaments where I can shoot my preferred rig ( WA BB ) instead of shooting at what I see as an inherent disadvantage.


They are WA BB shooters also exactly half of the attendees shot recurve in the BB category with the Compound shooters. Let's see 1st and 2nd two years ago were shooting recurve, last year 2nd and 3rd were. Vegas is fun and it's a shame you feel that way. Money is understandable, reason why I pick and choose which I attend. Vegas, Louisville/Cinci now/ Redding and Grass Valley are my big expenditures. All of which can be done reasonably sharing driving expenses and Lodging


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