# New Finger Tab



## Serious Fun

coach1 said:


> Happy Holidays friends
> 
> I have been asked to make this announcement … Queue Camera, Drum Roll …….
> Black Mamba Archery (www.blackmambaarchery.com ) has been born. Their first product is the patent pending VENOM finger tab. Completely manufactured in the United States, the compact design features a cordovan face, unique, innovative finger spacer and adjustable strap providing comfortable, secure attachment using either two or three fingers. Initially available in a brush aluminum finish, with an introductory price of $39.95, they will begin taking orders for shipment the first week of January in the next few days at www.blackmambaarchery.com. Until then you can send an inquiry to [email protected] or post here.
> 
> This is the tab designed, used and refined by Matt Zumbo and his dad during the 2009 and 2010 competition seasons. To everyone that has provided input, suggestions and help making this endeavor a reality they extend their warmest and most heartfelt thank you.
> 
> Note: The current website picture is the original prototype showing a shelf. The shelf will be offered as an optional accessory in the future if there is sufficient interest.
> 
> Gary


 Wow, looks great! $40 bucks is a great price! May I suggest that folks by two, a primary and a back up. It would be great to have them for the archers to get hold of at places like Vegas, Indoor Nationals and the AAE AZ Cup


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## Warbow

Looks interesting. The website says patent pending. What part of the design are they trying to patent?


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## Mithril

It's a little hard to take this seriously, when you read gems of spelling and grammar like this on the website...



> The design of this finger spacer has been refined over that passed two years into what we think is truley inovative.


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## gairsz

Sorry, I am just a dumb fireman trying to develop my son's idea. Web design is not what I do, but I tried my best at 3am to get a quality website up before the morning. I will make sure I use a spell checker next time.

Gary


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## gairsz

Warbow said:


> Looks interesting. The website says patent pending. What part of the design are they trying to patent?


When you put this tab on you hand and shoot it, you will now exactly what we want to patent. I am sure the copy cats will be out soon enough.


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## Warbow

gairsz said:


> When you put this tab on you hand and shoot it, you will now exactly what we want to patent. I am sure the copy cats will be out soon enough.


I assume your patent application will be a tad more informative.  What I was asking is what did you invent that is so different, so non-obvious to an expert in the field that you feel is patentable? If it is patentable and your patent really is pending then there is no harm in telling us--it is, presumably, one of the selling points of your tab. If it is not patentable--well, you are selling the tabs in January and we can all see them for ourselves, so there is no point in not telling us. If you think revealing the "secret" may hurt you or your patent application, well, then you shouldn't be marketing and selling the product yet.

I'm sorry to say that I'm rather put off by your coy answer. The spelling on your website I could care less about if your product is a good value. I like to see good niche products succeed. But if you wont be up front and tell us about your product, well that just doesn't strike me as a good way to deal with people who are potential customers, which I am, as are the other people who read this thread.


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## Huntmaster

Warbow said:


> I assume your patent application will be a tad more informative.  What I was asking is what did you invent that is so different, so non-obvious to an expert in the field that you feel is patentable? If it is patentable and your patent really is pending then there is no harm in telling us--it is, presumably, one of the selling points of your tab. If it is not patentable--well, you are selling the tabs in January and we can all see them for ourselves, so there is no point in not telling us. If you think revealing the "secret" may hurt you or your patent application, well, then you shouldn't be marketing and selling the product yet.
> 
> I'm sorry to say that I'm rather put off by your coy answer. The spelling on your website I could care less about if your product is a good value. I like to see good niche products succeed. But if you wont be up front and tell us about your product, well that just doesn't strike me as a good way to deal with people who are potential customers, which I am, as are the other people who read this thread.


What, so it can be coppied even further? I think I'd pass on that one.


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## Warbow

Huntmaster said:


> What, so it can be coppied even further? I think I'd pass on that one.


What the heck do you mean "copied even further"? They are taking pre-orders. The tabs will be in shipping in January. There won't be any "secret" when people are holding these in their hands. Oh, and patents are open **public** records--that is the point, and where the term "patent" comes from.


> ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French, from Latin patent- ‘lying open,’ from the verb patere.


I don't know how you think the tabs will be coppied "further" if they tell us the key sales point of the tabs. 

If the idea they think is non-obvious to an expert in the field and patentable is the key to this tab, then they a) should be telling us all about the cool idea that makes these tabs unique as the key sales point or b), if they think revealing the idea will hurt their patent application, then they shouldn't be marketing and selling the tabs now.


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## Cuthbert

Patenting something requires that something new is being introduced that is novel. While I really like what I see, I don't see what is novel enough to earn a patent. Finger tabs have been around for about 20 minutes less than the invention of the bow. Patent attorneys will tell you that you have to identify the specific things you want to be able to defend. In a case like this, I'm not sure it needs it. The product looks to be a well designed and executed, but no one can expect to have 100percent of the market share. You have to make an awful lot of tabs to make up for the 5 grand it takes to patent a product. Not to mention, even if you do have a patent, you have to be prepared to defend it.


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## Warbow

Cuthbert said:


> Not to mention, even if you do have a patent, you have to be prepared to defend it.


Yes. A patent is only worth what you are prepared to spend defending it. How big is the elite tab market? Doesn't seem worth the costs of patenting and defending the patent, IMO. I'd say successful niche products are more about execution, good product value, customer service and marketing than about patents. I think jager grips are a good example. Not patentable, but really nicely executed with the dual layers grip material and both off the rack and custom models available. The customer services has been great and jager archery has given me consideration above and beyond, so I can't say enough about them. I'd hope that Black Mamba Archery would seek that kind of reputation, but I don't think being coy about the tab design for worry about copy cats is the way to do that. If Black Mamba Archery is a great company that offers good value, people will look to them rather than to copycats. But if Black Mamba Archery act like, well, less than helpful, people will be less inclined to do business with them.


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## titanium man

Will you be at the ATA Show in January?


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## Mithril

When looking to patent something, usually you need something novel.

Big finger spacer. Not new.
Multiple finger stalls made from nylon strap. Not new.
Small size metal plate. Not new. 
Leather backing. Not new.
Shelf. Not new.

Heck even the overall look and design isn't novel. 

The patent office will pretty much grant a patent to anything claiming to be novel- there's no burden of proof. Patents like that are a total waste of money.


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## Huntmaster

Warbow said:


> What the heck do you mean "copied even further"? They are taking pre-orders. The tabs will be in shipping in January. There won't be any "secret" when people are holding these in their hands. Oh, and patents are open **public** records--that is the point, and where the term "patent" comes from.
> 
> 
> I don't know how you think the tabs will be coppied "further" if they tell us the key sales point of the tabs.
> 
> If the idea they think is non-obvious to an expert in the field and patentable is the key to this tab, then they a) should be telling us all about the cool idea that makes these tabs unique as the key sales point or b), if they think revealing the idea will hurt their patent application, then they shouldn't be marketing and selling the tabs now.


did you ever stop to think "coppied even further" perhaps means someone has ALREADY tried to copy it? Yes, I have some inside info, and I'm not going to promote their rip off by advertising the name. That should be saved untill the release of the real deal. And yes, it is unique. Why would Garry re-invent the wheel?


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## cpdasso

I have a good friend who works at the patent office, and it is indeed quite unpossible to get a patent for something which is not "new" (vs. changes in existing products). He has told me that, at times, they will deny everything coming into the office, whether or not it has merit, simply because they have already met a quota for patents in that specific field. So if you have not done so already, I would save the money and skip the patent.

That being said, I do very much like the look of the tab and I'll be buying one when it's available!


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## Warbow

Huntmaster said:


> did you ever stop to think "coppied even further" perhaps means someone has ALREADY tried to copy it? Yes, I have some inside info, and I'm not going to promote their rip off by advertising the name. That should be saved untill the release of the real deal. And yes, it is unique. Why would Garry re-invent the wheel?


Whether somebody has tried to copy the tab design is irrelevant to my points, none of which you have actually tried to refute. Again: If the idea they think is non-obvious to an expert in the field and patentable is the key to this tab, then they a) should be telling us all about the cool idea that makes these tabs unique as the key sales point or b), if they think revealing the idea will hurt their patent application, then they shouldn't be marketing and selling the tabs now. Anybody who wanted to copy the tab would just wait until January to look at a production model anyway, so I really can't see any legit reason to be coy. I'm a straightforward person, and I think a lot of archers are, and I don't appreciate coyness in this context.



cpdasso said:


> I have a good friend who works at the patent office, and it is indeed quite unpossible to get a patent for something which is not "new" (vs. changes in existing products). He has told me that, at times, they will deny everything coming into the office, whether or not it has merit, simply because they have already met a quota for patents in that specific field.


That may be true in some instances, but, overall, the patent office tends to over allow patent claims. With its huge backlog of claims, the patent office tends to reward examiners for approvals rather than denials and patent examiners are not given sufficient time to research prior art or understand the patent. Additionally, patent claims are now written to be as broad and vague as possible so, which makes it hard to tell what is actually patented and rather defeats the idea of patents. The idea of patents is that people used to try and keep innovations, such as manufacturing techniques or devices, secret to prevent competition. But that limits growth and innovation overall because nobody can build on those ideas in future but the secret holders, and it only works as long as the technique remains secret. After the secret is revealed anybody can copy it. A patent is a trade of for the public good and for private gain. People publish their secrets so that the public can learn from and use them in future (for the advancement of arts and sciences) in exchange for a limited-time government enforced monopoly on the technique or device. Over approved patents and vague patents destroy this basic trade. 

Anyway, if Black Mamba Archery are worried about IP theft then they shouldn't be marketing and selling their product now. If they aren't worried then they shouldn't be needlessly coy.


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## tjk009

I have seen the tab, and it is really nice. Haven't shot with it but will at the front of the line to buy one. Gary and Matt will excel at customer service. One would hope folks would design new things rather than stealing other people's work, but sadly that isn't the case. I like the Jager grips, and service and I wish the Zumbo's similar success.


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## gairsz

*Specifics*

Pictures, video, and detailed descriptions to follow on the website. I am working a 48 hour shift at the fire station this weekend. I will get the info out as soon as I can.

We believe we are making a solid product. All the parts are made in the USA. Matt has been shooting the same tab for over two years. he shoots between 5K and 6K arrows a month. So his tab has shot over 150,000 arrows and the only thing we have had to change is the strap, and that only twice. I looks like to me that it could probably take about 300,000 more. We believe it is a quality product. We believe it helps Matt win. He believes in the product and wants to help other shoot better. He is the one that has pushed me to help him get this company off the ground. If you want his opinion, just ask him at [email protected]

On the issue of steeling ideas. Someone close to us convinced me he was going to help us sell this product, so we let him see it, but ultimately he copied the idea that we have refined over the past two and a half years. This forced us to launch a little earlier than we would have liked. We are sorry we are not ready to ship just yet. He missed the mark on the details which resulted in an inferior product to ours. Oh well, i guess he will have to buy one of ours to correct his mistake.

Those of you that are in support of us, thank you. We are just trying to make a good product that can help support a young kid's Olympic dream. Those of you that have shot Matt's tab and have been waiting a long time for this, thank you for being patient.

Thanks again,

Gary


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## Jim C

gairsz said:


> Sorry, I am just a dumb fireman trying to develop my son's idea. Web design is not what I do, but I tried my best at 3am to get a quality website up before the morning. I will make sure I use a spell checker next time.
> 
> Gary


Don't sweat it Gary, if the tab was the same result of the hard work that made your son into a top competitor I am sure it will be a winner. Its people who have better ideas and the courage to take them to market who made this country what it is.


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## Landed in AZ

Jim C said:


> Don't sweat it Gary, if the tab was the same result of the hard work that made your son into a top competitor I am sure it will be a winner. Its people who have better ideas and the courage to take them to market who made this country what it is.


That's an awesome point Jim.


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## Hank D Thoreau

I am with Jim C. If there is a single piece of archery equipment where an individual archer has the ability to make a contribution to sport, it is the finger tab. The tab is the connection between the archer and the bow and has a very personal feel. I have gone through many looking for the one that works best for me. The right tab can make a big difference in comfort, and quite possibly, the quality of the shot. Many folks in the traditional area design and construct their own tabs. I think it is great that Matt and his family are sharing these tabs with us. You certainly are not going to get rich selling tabs.

Matt is still shooting in the junior division. What an educational experience this must be. I do not shoot split finger very often but I'll pick one up and give it a try. Maybe it will solve my ongoing love hate relationship with my longbow. I watch Matt shoot at every opportunity, maybe some of his remarkable form will rub off on me.


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## Warbow

gairsz said:


> Pictures, video, and detailed descriptions to follow on the website. I am working a 48 hour shift at the fire station this weekend. I will get the info out as soon as I can.
> 
> We believe we are making a solid product. All the parts are made in the USA. Matt has been shooting the same tab for over two years. he shoots between 5K and 6K arrows a month. So his tab has shot over 150,000 arrows and the only thing we have had to change is the strap, and that only twice. I looks like to me that it could probably take about 300,000 more. We believe it is a quality product. We believe it helps Matt win. He believes in the product and wants to help other shoot better. He is the one that has pushed me to help him get this company off the ground. If you want his opinion, just ask him at [email protected]
> 
> On the issue of steeling ideas. Someone close to us convinced me he was going to help us sell this product, so we let him see it, but ultimately he copied the idea that we have refined over the past two and a half years. This forced us to launch a little earlier than we would have liked. We are sorry we are not ready to ship just yet. He missed the mark on the details which resulted in an inferior product to ours. Oh well, i guess he will have to buy one of ours to correct his mistake.
> 
> Those of you that are in support of us, thank you. We are just trying to make a good product that can help support a young kid's Olympic dream. Those of you that have shot Matt's tab and have been waiting a long time for this, thank you for being patient.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Gary


Cool. Thanks for the follow up. I checked the website again and saw the description and additional photos. Looks like a terrific, innovative tab. I look forward to its upcoming release


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## kungfucowboy83

Gary,

I'm can see you really believe in your product. I would like to make a couple of suggestions. 

1) making claims that something is revolutionary or innovative without saying why smacks of tv infomercials. Please note I'm not implying that you tab is not innovative it may very well be great it's just claims of something without reasons to back them up can be off putting.

2) Since you are doing business and representing your firm on the internet you are going to meet many people like Mithril. Your response to them will influence everyone's opinion of you whether it's fair or not. His/her phrasing was blunt to the point of rude and very possibly trolling. Your response, imo, didn't make you look good. It made you _appear_ overly sensitive or defensive. If you had responded with something like "Thanks for pointing that out I'll fix that as soon as i can, we have been under a lot of pressure to get the site up as quickly as possible. Please forgive any errors" you would look like the good guy and Mithril would look like troll. Try to look at it as him/her saving you some trouble in editing your site instead of him/her making snide remarks.

3) I'm very sorry someone ripped of your idea but it's a good idea to not air your dirty laundry in public. Since you mentioned it everyone will be looking for a tab that is similar to yours and will now be very curious about it, where as if you had not mentioned it at all we would have no idea.

Anyway I've probably butted in to your business too much already, but I have seen too many small businesses with interesting products fail because of small things like this. Good luck with your new tab and I hope we see even more from your company.


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## ryan b.

the edges of the leather look like they are wandering and irregular. it might just be the angle of the pics but IF you are cutting these with some sort of scissor or edge trimmer you might want to look into having a stamp cutter made--it makes for a lot cleaner edges and a more refined look. will there be different sizes of finger spacers? 

good luck!


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## Mithril

My comment about the spelling on the website should have been in a PM. I apologize to gairsz for the public comment.


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## Landed in AZ

ryan b. said:


> the edges of the leather look like they are wandering and irregular. it might just be the angle of the pics but IF you are cutting these with some sort of scissor or edge trimmer you might want to look into having a stamp cutter made--it makes for a lot cleaner edges and a more refined look. will there be different sizes of finger spacers?
> 
> good luck!


I do not know that many archers that use a stamp to cut their finger tabs from the original leather it comes with. We use scissors and it never comes out even. The photo you see is Matt's tab that has been shot for two years.

Kiley has shot Matt's tab and while the leather was about an inch too long it was a great tab and she liked it a lot. She will give one a try when these come out.


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## ryan b.

From a technical stand point i understand the cut is not going to be pretty once you customize the tab to your fingers. 
I use scissors to modify my tab too.

I would assume you would want to show examples of new products on the website--making your product appear more professionally made and that is the only reason I offered the suggestion/tip.

I think everyone uses scissors to cut and modify any tab they get but you dont see chunked up pieces of leather on NEW tabs for sale. 

I'm not arguing, just trying to give you helpful suggestions but i too will quit posting suggestions on the public forum.


The finger spacer does look neat. Will you be offering different sized spacers for different sized hands or do you find that one spacer size fits all?


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## gairsz

The plates are machined aluminum. The spacers are injection molded. The cordovan leather will be die cut. The buckle will be laser cut stainless steel. The strap is 3/8 inch nylon webbing, and all the screws are stainless steel. The final product will be a higher quality than what you see in the current photos. I thank you for all the input, we do appreciate the feedback.

This is a one size fits all tab. The leather will come over-sized and will have to be cut to fit the shooter’s hand. The strap will also be over-sized and also have to be cut to fit. All parts are reversible for LH shooters. The cordovan is cut in reverse for the LH shooters. If, there someone out there has an enormous and wants to shoot our tab, we will custom cut the leather large enough for you, and also send you a larger strap.

I also want to mention that this is a three finger or a two finger tab. The buckle can be moved so the plate can be used in a two finger setup. An added option that we thought might be nice for some shooters.

Also, the tab pictured on the website is actually Matt's backup tab. It was the first prototype and is exactly the same as what he shoots every day. The only difference from the one he is currently shooting is the plate is carbon fiber with threaded inserts for the screws. It is very cool but too expensive to manufacture are this time, but may be an option in the future.

I hope this clarifies some things. Again, we are trying to bring you the best possible product we can, for a good price, completely manufactured in the USA.

Gary


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## Lindy

Looks like a great product. I wish you success with the tab. Have a happy, healthy and PROSPEROUS new year.


Regards and Good Shooting


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## ryan b.

Wow, that all sounds really great. I will definitely be getting one as soon as they become available.

Keep up the good work--this sounds like its going to be a winner.


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## ArtV

Frankly, that looks like a copy of the design Kisk Lee has been doing for the shooters at Chula Vista for the past 3 or 4 years...not quiet as refined but definitely similar design. I have one that is at least 3 years old that Terry Lanny made while working with the Dream Team and have recently ordered and received two more. Brady Ellison shoots one I think most of the US Archery Recurve team shoots one.
Art


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## gairsz

ArtV said:


> Frankly, that looks like a copy of the design Kisk Lee has been doing for the shoots at Chula Vista for the past couple of years...not quiet as refined but definitely the same design.
> Art


Matt is on the JDT and trains at the OTC in Chula Vista. Everyone there, including Coach Lee, has seen this tab develop over the past three years since Matt has been on the JDT. Nobody there would say that this tab is the same as Terry Laney's tab that he makes for the athletes at the OTC. Just so you know, this tab was not a secrete to Matt's friends down at the OTC, or our intention to sell it. There is a cheep copy of Terry Laney's tab out there. I suggest you stay away from that tab and buy directly from Terry if you like his design.

There are four major difference in out tab to Terry's tab. We are offering an option, that's all. I am not going to say a better option because Terry is a friend of mine, and he makes a good product. Ours is different, and we believe its a good product. Matt has been winning with it for two years now. Ultimately it will be up to you.

Thanks for your support.

Gary Zumbo


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## coach1

*Part One - Story of a Tab*

"... looks like a copy of the design Kisk Lee has been doing for the shooters at Chula Vista for the past 3 or 4 years..."

I have had the unique opportunity to be part of the process from the beginning .........

Though there are some similarities between the two they are in fact unique designs. I could argue if anyone other than Gary or Matt deserves any credit for the initial design it would be me. As far as the final design I am here to tell you, one hundred percent of the design belongs to Matt Zumbo and his father, Gary. 

Here is the highly condensed version of how the tab came to be:

Matt has been a member of the JDT since 2007. BEFORE the introduction of the Tab Terry is now producing (As I understand it, in limited quantities.) At the time of his acceptance to the JDT Matt was 13 shooting compound he finished 4th or 5th on the Junior/Cadet USAT list. When he transitioned to recurve he developed a nagging blister on the inside of his index finger. When I mentioned this to Coach Lee he pointed out the obvious that he was pinching the arrow and suggested a “larger” finger spacer. As Matt’s primary JDT coach (responsibility was determined by geographic location at the time) and his personal coach I had a long talk with Gary regarding Matt’s sore finger. At this time Matt was shooting a Win & Win perfect tab. Gary went off with a goal in mind “FIX THE PROBLEM!” Tubes of epoxy later and more iterations of something akin to “It doesn’t feel right” they settled on the beginnings of the spacer.

The problem now is the darn thing kept moving around in his hand; at this time Bob Town was working on a tab design with Coach Lee for the RA program. At the OTC in Chula Vista, Bob and I discussed ideas for attaching the tab to the hand. When I discussed some of the ideas Bob and I had discussed with Gary, the elastic strap was pretty much dismissed out of hand for good reason. So father and son went back to the proverbial drawing board and ultimately emerged with what would now be called “Release 0.1” if production was being considered, It wasn’t. They were simply trying to solve a specific problem. 

During the ensuing two plus years I’d wager Gary and Matt have purchased, tried or looked at just about every tab available today and a good portion of history. Conversations with parents and coaches along with close observation of how athletes handled the tab when they had the opportunity to try it led to several additional modifications or innovations if you will. I should mention that the pesky blister that started this whole process has been vanquished going on two years now.


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## bownut-tl.

I was with the JDT from the first day Matt became a member and saw the tab his dad made from the start. I will agree with ART that they are similar but only with the following:

Both have metal plates.
Both use screws to attach the leather to the plate.
Both use a finger spacer that is attached to the plate with a screw.
Both use cordovan leather as the facing material.
Both attach the tab to the hand via the same three fingers using lacing.

Here are the subtle differences:

Plate size
Plate shape
Leather shape
Spacer size
Spacer shape
Lacing material
Method of attaching lacing to the hand
Method used to attach lacing to the tab
Hard to write with tab on
Hard to pull arrows with tab on
Less flexibility with hand position when holding tab (designed that way)

Gary is correct, the tabs, just like all the others that are sold, are an option. Shoot what you like.

Terry Laney


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## coach1

coach1 said:


> Happy Holidays friends
> 
> ... introductory price of $39.95, they will begin taking orders for shipment the first week of January in the next few days at www.blackmambaarchery.com. Until then you can send an inquiry to [email protected] or post here. ...


Gary and Matt are getting very close to a shipping product. Thanks to a strong response and inquiries the afore mentioned brushed aluminim finsh will not see the light of day. The tab will ship on day one with the following color choices. GOLD, RED, BLUE, BLACK, SILVER and PURPLE. CHECK www.blackmambaarchery.com for updated pictures and information.


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## jhinaz

'Black Mamba's website states: "The introductory price for the Venom Finger Tab in polished aluminum will be $39.95. All other colors will be $44.95."

Coach1's post states.......the afore mentioned brushed aluminim finsh will not see the light of day.

Is the "silver" plate that is pictured above anodized or is it the polished aluminum? - John


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## Landed in AZ

ArtV said:


> Frankly, except for the ledge, and lack of palm plate extention, the tab looks like the ones Coach Lee developed for the kids at Chula Vista years ago. Most shoot with it and I believe a staff coach makes them for all the kids. The three finger stretch cord is not a new idea. (Coach Lee is against using a ledge for shooting, but the tabs he has made allow for one to be fitted.) My history of the tab development may be a bit off, but it has been used for several years. I know I have had one for at least 4 years and just bought to new ones to break in.
> 
> But the tab you have looks like a good one and should really produce a good fit.


Art, Please go back up and read Terry Laney's post from December 16th. It is clearly not the same tab that Coach Laney is producing which Gary and Matt have both said is also a good tab.


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## ArtV

I stand corrected.


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## gairsz

jhinaz said:


> 'Black Mamba's website states: "The introductory price for the Venom Finger Tab in polished aluminum will be $39.95. All other colors will be $44.95."
> 
> Coach1's post states.......the afore mentioned brushed aluminim finsh will not see the light of day.
> 
> Is the "silver" plate that is pictured above anodized or is it the polished aluminum? - John


Clear Anodizing


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## jhinaz

gairsz said:


> Clear Anodizing


Thanks gairsz. You've got a nice selection of colors to chose from. If you decide to add another color I vote for green (perhaps lime). I'm ready to order mine whenever the website gets set up to take it. - John


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## gairsz

More product photos posted at www.blackmambaarchery.com. We are just waiting for the rest of the supplies to arrive. The link to purchase will be up next week.










Thanks,

Gary


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## rambo-yambo

If you show an outsider a prototype without a signed confidential non-disclosure agreement before you apply for a patent, you lose your patenting right. Sorry, let this be a lesson for others.


gairsz said:


> Pictures, video, and detailed descriptions
> 
> On the issue of steeling ideas. Someone close to us convinced me he was going to help us sell this product, so we let him see it, but ultimately he copied the idea that we have refined over the past two and a half years. This forced us to launch a little earlier than we would have liked. We are sorry we are not ready to ship just yet. He missed the mark on the details which resulted in an inferior product to ours. Oh well, i guess he will have to buy one of ours to correct his mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> Gary


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## Mithril

As if the numbers of these sold will ever pay for a patent in the first place. You would have to sell tens of thousands of these, and that means internationally, where your patent won't be worth the ink on the paper. 

If this is actually good the Koreans will have a copy out next week, and nothing you can do to stop them. Look at the Cavalier copy that Cartel makes. As shameless a knockoff as there ever was, they've gotten away with it for years.


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## Huntmaster

rambo-yambo said:


> If you show an outsider a prototype without a signed confidential non-disclosure agreement before you apply for a patent, you lose your patenting right. Sorry, let this be a lesson for others.


ummmm, you sure? I don't think that's the case. 

It's a good tab. It'll sell on it's own merrits anyway.


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## ryan b.

wow the small plate looks really nice. i HATE feeling the edge of anything under my chin--i just want to feel my fingers against my jaw and thats it. im always modifying (grinding) my cav into a smaller plate and enlarging the finger spacer. looks like you have done this for me! ..and it looks really sharp. good job here guys. im sure they are going to sell just fine. ill be ordering one as soon as the link is up. what changes with the sizes; what is different on a large v. a medium?


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## Warbow

rambo-yambo said:


> If you show an outsider a prototype without a signed confidential non-disclosure agreement before you apply for a patent, you lose your patenting right. Sorry, let this be a lesson for others.


Utter nonsense, AFIK. While I'm dubious about whether the elite tab market is large enough to warrant the high costs of patenting any aspect of the tab, it is false to claim that disclosure negates ones ability to patent an invention in the US. The US patent system is based on first to *invent*, not first to file. And even in a first to file country, the person you revealed the invention to would have to make a fraudulent claim to interfere with your patent filing.

You seem to be confusing patent law with trade secret law. With trade secrets you have to attempt to keep the trade secret a secret or you loose certain "trade secret" IP rights. The same is not true for patents.


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## zal

Hmm, isn't that just a Yamaha (type 3?) -shaped plate (of which many have made copies, ie w&w) with few more holes punched through it, and with eli-korea knockoff finger spacer? Or am I missing something?


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## Mithril

Ding ding ding we have a winner! Not much new under the archery sun.


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## Huntmaster

Mithril said:


> Ding ding ding we have a winner! Not much new under the archery sun.


/musical/ Wa Wa Wa /musical/ Wrong answer again! This was built from scratch and designed for a purpose.

Sounds like you need to reload and try again.

Step right up! Step right up!

:set1_STOOGE2:


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## spangler

Nothing like checking back in to AT and seeing that not much has changed. Some of the best, and some of the worst ...all in one thread. How efficient.

Gary, tab looks great, after shoulder surgery I'll be sure to order one as I will start shooting the recurve again. I wish you the best with your product.


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## straat

Huntmaster said:


> /musical/ Wa Wa Wa /musical/ Wrong answer again! This was built from scratch and designed for a purpose.
> 
> Sounds like you need to reload and try again.
> 
> Step right up! Step right up!
> 
> :set1_STOOGE2:


I'm sure if I were to build a wheel from scratch, designed for a purpose, it would be round. Like a lot of other wheels. Which isn't bad but not new. There's only so many ways to build a tab and a lot of people have done it before. Nothing wrong with this just being another iteration.


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## Mithril

I'm sure that the first African to make a wheel after the first European to make one thought his idea was original too. But one look at the old Yamaha tabs...

Well at least there are lots of nice colours !


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## teammemphis

I personaly know that they put alot of time into these tabs. Sure it may look like another tab but that is only its looks. The true test is how it performs. I have seen this tab at work and it is a great tab with alot of adjustability. If you have not seen anythng about this tab in person or if you have not tanked to the people who have been working on it for the last 2 years then drop it. Don't buy one, don't try one but don't sit there and slam someones design if you have no idea what your talking about beacause you have not tried it yourself. A picture is worth a thousand words but most are not worth saying.

Gary, Keep up the work. I will help you promote this tab any way I can. I know how much time and effert you and Matt have put into it.


----------



## Huntmaster

Mithril said:


> I'm sure that the first African to make a wheel after the first European to make one thought his idea was original too. But one look at the old Yamaha tabs...
> 
> Well at least there are lots of nice colours !


Yup, these wheels definately look universal to me. 










I guess they're all round, and they are different colors.


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## Warbow

teammemphis said:


> I personaly know that they put alot of time into these tabs. Sure it may look like another tab but that is only its looks. The true test is how it performs.


I think people are conflating multiple issues:

1) Is it a good tab

2) Is it an original invention so novel that it would be non-obvious to and expert in the field

3) Is it financially worth patenting given the high cost of attempting to get a patent, the limited market for elite tabs, and the cost of **defending** a patent (a patent only being worth what you can afford to defend it).


I'd say 1) it looks like an excellent tab. 2) Perhaps not so novel that it deserves a patent 3) Probably not worth patenting even if it is patentable. --But those are my opinions based on limited knowledge.

And I think people are a also conflating the issue of patentable ideas vs. quality execution, marketing and good customer service... *The value of this tab to archers isn't in whether it is patented. * I couldn't care less whether it is patented. To me,* I only care if it works well and is a good value proposition*--better than that of other similar products. And I'd say that I'm certainly interested in them. But as for all that patent stuff--worrying too much about that makes me worry that the makers are too interested in just monopolizing the idea and not not enough about execution, which is ironic since the story about the tab is all about the long, gradual process of development. If the makers worry about other companies stealing their idea (which would ironic since black mamba are "stealing" the basic design of a hybrid metal/leather tab with a finger spacer, held together by multiple screws, from other tab makers) and profiting from it then what they are really saying is that they have limited confidence that they can compete in quality, cost, marketing and customer service in a head to head competition. I'd say they should worry more about competing on those issues than on some patent which they may or may not get and which may or may not keep others from competing with them. Because that is what will make me want to buy tabs from them, not patents. Wow me with your tab, its quality, its price, your customer service. 

Anyway, I think the tab looks well designed, well executed and I'm considering buying one--patented or not.


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## cpdasso

Question: I notice that on the website, the tab, spacer and finger strap are all separate listings. Does this mean I have to buy all 3 items separately, or are the spacer and strap listings just if I want to buy extras/replacements?


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## gairsz

cpdasso said:


> Question: I notice that on the website, the tab, spacer and finger strap are all separate listings. Does this mean I have to buy all 3 items separately, or are the spacer and strap listings just if I want to buy extras/replacements?


It tab comes complete. We just thought some people might be comfortable with the one they have used for years but need a new spacer. Also, they come in different colors and some may want to change colors. Straps do wear out over time, so we wanted to make them available. Once we finalize the design we will have a shelf available in the future. Like someone said above, customer service is the most important thing. We only make tabs, so we are going to do are best to make the best product we can at the best possible price. All the parts are manufactured and assembles in the USA, this is important to us.

By the way, the California Board of Equalization wont let me start selling product until January 15th. All of our supplies should be here and the website open for business on that date.

Thank you for your interest. As soon as I have time I will try to post some comparison pictures so maybe the differences in our tab will be more clear.

Gary


----------



## TER

So it comes with the spacer and strap? Does it include the nylon or elastic strap? When the shelf design is finalized will it come with the tab or be extra? How long before the shelf design is finalized?


----------



## gairsz

TER said:


> So it comes with the spacer and strap? Does it include the nylon or elastic strap? When the shelf design is finalized will it come with the tab or be extra? How long before the shelf design is finalized?


The tab was designed for the nylon strap and will come with the 3/8" nylon webbing strap. The elastic strap, for people that prefer that will be available in the near future and will be purchased separately. No time frame on the shelf at this time. It will be sold separately. Any shelf should fit.

I hope that helps.

Gary


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## gairsz

zal said:


> Hmm, isn't that just a Yamaha (type 3?) -shaped plate (of which many have made copies, ie w&w) with few more holes punched through it, and with eli-korea knockoff finger spacer? Or am I missing something?


Does the one on the left look like the typical finger spacer? The one on the left is ours, and the one on the right is a typical finger spacer. I have never seen a finger spacer this shape on the market, and I have never seen one with a slot for a strap on the market either. 









Gary


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## Warbow

gairsz said:


> Does the one on the left look like the typical finger spacer? The one on the left is ours, and the one on the right is a typical finger spacer. I have never seen a finger spacer this shape on the market, and I have never seen one with a slot for a strap on the market either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary


Typical? No. But wholly original and deserving of a patent? Possibly not. Longer finger spacers are common, and are made and customized by many archers. The only thing I haven't seen is the hole for the strap in the spacer, but that doesn't make it non-obvious to an expert in the field (one of the standards a device must meet to be patentable)--and the hole for the strap only works for two and three finger straps--an idea which I've seen before and am pretty sure you aren't the only person to implement. Which leaves the only patentable idea (if that) being the hole in the finger spacer. Can you really patent a hole? Is it really non-obvious to an expert in the field? You might get lucky--the patent office grants way more patents than really meet the standard, if you pony up the high costs of researching and applying for a patent.

But, all of that is a completely separate issue from whether your tab is a good one and whether it is a good value. And, so far, your tab looks like a good one.


----------



## gairsz

Mithril said:


> Ding ding ding we have a winner! Not much new under the archery sun.


Here is a picture of how the spacer and strap design is different than anything on the market. By using a strap that does not stretch and passing it through the spacer the fingers are cinched together keeping the fingers tight on the spacer, and along with the longer and angled spacer design this ensures the fingers remain parallel on the string. The non-stretching three finger strap forces a positive connection between the fingers and the plate, ensuring no forward movement of the tab at release. This a vast improvement over the three finger elastic band tabs you seen before. Elastic stretches and allows for movement. In our initial test using elastic, we determined that was not the way to go for the results we wanted. The elastic had to be so tight that Matt had circulation issues with the tab. The final design resolved that issue. People that have tried this tab have described it as, "its like I am not even wearing a tab". That is the goal, right. It should feel natural.










Gary


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## jhinaz

Gairsz,

Does each tab automatically come with a "black" finger spacer or will we be able to select one of the available colors? Do you intend offer a "white" finger spacer like Matt is currently using? - John


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## Warbow

gairsz said:


> Here is a picture of how the spacer and strap design is different than anything on the market.


I know your post wasn't directed at me in particular, but I would say that it represents a bit of conflation of different issues. Not being currently "on the market" is different from whether something has been invented before by others, whether people are making home brew tabs of similar design or whether the design would be non-obvious to an expert in the field (one of the standards for patent eligibility).

I think the tab design looks very interesting, well executed and is somewhat different from tabs that I'm aware of being currently widely marketed. But that is a separate issue of whether it is truly something new under the sun, or patent worthy.

Your tab doesn't have to be completely different, completely original or completely anything to be an excellent tab or a good value worthy of purchase. It just has to be a good value. So my opinions about patents and IP have nothing to do with whether folks should consider purchasing the tab. The issues are completely separate.


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## gairsz

jhinaz said:


> Gairsz,
> 
> Does each tab automatically come with a "black" finger spacer or will we be able to select one of the available colors? Do you intend offer a "white" finger spacer like Matt is currently using? - John


Four different color spacers. Black, red, blue and purple. Black on gold, silver, and black, and purple on purple, red on red, and blue on blue. I will look into white and see if I can modify the current order without additional cost. Spacers, straps, and plates sold separately will have free shipping in the USA. We will not be offering mix and match ordering, so if you would like to change spacer colors it will have to be purchased separately. sorry.

Gary


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## gairsz

If you couldn't tell in the previous picture, this should help.










Gary


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## cpdasso

If this helps settle the debate any, I showed that picture to a friend of mine that works at the patent office. His response: "Differences in size, shape, or color do not qualify for a patent"


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## BigCnyn

Great looking tab..
I would be interested in one..


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## K1archer

Warbow said:


> Typical? No. But wholly original and deserving of a patent? Possibly not. Longer finger spacers are common, and are made and customized by many archers. The only thing I haven't seen is the hole for the strap in the spacer, but that doesn't make it non-obvious to an expert in the field (one of the standards a device must meet to be patentable)--and the hole for the strap only works for two and three finger straps--an idea which I've seen before and am pretty sure you aren't the only person to implement. *Which leaves the only patentable idea (if that) being the hole in the finger spacer. Can you really patent a hole?* Is it really non-obvious to an expert in the field? You might get lucky--the patent office grants way more patents than really meet the standard, if you pony up the high costs of researching and applying for a patent.
> 
> But, all of that is a completely separate issue from whether your tab is a good one and whether it is a good value. And, so far, your tab looks like a good one.




The idea with a hole was already on the market 15 year ago and longer, and I think that a lot of archers used the hole this way in order to avoid pain. (in this case through the chain or from the cord a couple years later). However, this gave me and other archers, coaches and ........ some good ideas over the years to make tabs, finger spacers different or even modify existing tabs or finger spacers later on.










The system with using one (1), two (2), three (3) or even four (4) Fingers tabs (using chains, rubber bands, nylon cord, shoe laces or whatever) is many many years old and as you can see archers tried many thing in order to build something for them self, especially if you shoot for a very long time. 

I think it will be good for the sport that people always think about doing something special, so it can help others too.


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## Warbow

Wow, K1, it sounds like there is definitely "prior art," which is the patent term for examples of earlier inventions, for tabs with a hole in the finger spacer, and that the idea is demonstrably obvious to an expert in the field, and thus non-patentable. If that is so then your post could save Blackmamba thousands of dollars in wasted patent search, legal and filing fees. 

And I'll say again, that while I'm very dubious of whether the Blackmamba tab is patentable I also think it looks like a very nice tab, and K1's photos remind us not only of prior art, but in how nicely executed the Blackmamba tab is. Whether something is patentable or not has nothing to do with whether it is a good value to the end user.


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## Xcreekarchery1

ok guys we get it, the tab may not be possible to patent but why try to discourage him from trying? i know the zumbos have spent years perfecting this tab to what it is now and ive seen most of the changes. this thread has gone from a post about garys great tab to a debate on whether or not it is patentable.. I for one have shot this tab for a good length enough to know that it is a great tab, and imo is better than any other tab on the market for a high caliber shooter. It does not slide foward on release, you do not pinch the arrow and you do not get plate interference with your jaw. This tab wont be for everybody, if you dont like it then dont mention it..

chris


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## Warbow

Xcreekarchery1 said:


> ok guys we get it, the tab may not be possible to patent but why try to discourage him from trying?


Why encourage him? Either way we are talking about our opinions. He'll do what he thinks is best for his goals. My oppnion may or may not be correct, but he may have been unaware of some of the issues surrounding patents, such as prior art for the design. If the idea is not new and is not patentable then forgoing a fruitless attempt to patent the idea would save him from wasting thousands of dollars that he could use to grow his business. And if the idea is not new then I don't want to see someone unfairly given a government monopoly on the idea that they weren't first to invent--a monopoly that would prevent others from using the same idea.

Anyway, given that most business fail because of lack of funds money saved by not attempting to patent could be an important amount of cash better used to grow the business rather than to attempt to gain a government monopoly on the idea of a hole in a finger spacer. I'd like to see the tab succeed. It looks like a great tab and a great new choice for archers--a point I've gone to rather excessive length to note. Again, whether or not the idea is patentable has nothing to do with whether a product is a good value and my opinions on patentability are not a criticism of the tab itself.



> if you dont like it then dont mention it..


This isn't the PR forum. It is not the "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" forum. It is a forum for *archers* and their ideas, thoughts and opinions. It is nice to see people talk about neat products like this tab in a forum where we can freely discuss it. If there are legitimate comments people should feel free to mention them whether they are positive or negative. I've made many positive comments about this tab. If somebody wants to issue a press release they can do so in the press release forum. And if they want to post where no one can make negative comments they can do so on their own website, and Black Mamba has a very nice website where they extol the virtues of their new tab.


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## K1archer

Warbow said:


> Wow, K1, it sounds like there is definitely "prior art," which is the patent term for examples of earlier inventions, for tabs with a hole in the finger spacer, and that the idea is demonstrably obvious to an expert in the field, and thus non-patentable. If that is so then your post could save Blackmamba thousands of dollars in wasted patent search, legal and filing fees.
> 
> And I'll say again, that while I'm very dubious of whether the Blackmamba tab is patentable I also think it looks like a very nice tab, and K1's photos remind us not only of prior art, but in how nicely executed the Blackmamba tab is. Whether something is patentable or not has nothing to do with whether it is a good value to the end user.


 
Not only that, I came up in 2005 with the idea to build this type of tab (back ground left) but that did not work out with the rubber patting (missing). So I had to make a finger spacer that is bigger, longer and .... (back ground right). Through the tap position on one finger, the more heavier plate and spacer, the tab was hitting my neck after the release. Thanks to the finger spacer with the hole I had to come up with something else; I considered a different option to keep the tab on the fingers/hand and the rubber band in place. I cannot claim that was my idea, because somebody had already done it, I only had to make the hole bigger. 


























Still, this kind of tab was not comfortable for me due to the back part of the tab where the tab goes on the finger (for other archer too), I put it on hold, but thought about to make a finger spacer in first place, which I did. I made a finger spacer which was a little bit smaller as the one on the picture to fit the common tabs. As I mention in the earlier post, there are many archers ….. in the field they cannot work with the item on the market, so they have to customize it. (I saw, the made a groove on the top of the spacer and put the rubber in it). That brings us to the conclusion there are a kind of inventers under us, but it will be in the most NO reason to get a patent for it. (Except something very special) The finger sling I made is/was different to the finger sling on the market but it was difficult approx. 16 years ago to get a patent on it. (to much money too) A sling is a sling, even they are different.

Again, it will be good for the sport that people always think about doing something special, so it can help others too.


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## Landed in AZ

K1archer said:


> Not only that, I came up in 2005 with the idea to build this type of tab (back ground left) but that did not work out with the rubber patting (missing). So I had to make a finger spacer that is bigger, longer and .... (back ground right). Through the tap position on one finger, the more heavier plate and spacer, the tab was hitting my neck after the release. Thanks to the finger spacer with the hole I had to come up with something else; I considered a different option to keep the tab on the fingers/hand and the rubber band in place. I cannot claim that was my idea, because somebody had already done it, I only had to make the hole bigger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still, this kind of tab was not comfortable for me due to the back part of the tab where the tab goes on the finger (for other archer too), I put it on hold, but thought about to make a finger spacer in first place, which I did. I made a finger spacer which was a little bit smaller as the one on the picture to fit the common tabs. As I mention in the earlier post, there are many archers ….. in the field they cannot work with the item on the market, so they have to customize it. (I saw, the made a groove on the top of the spacer and put the rubber in it). That brings us to the conclusion there are a kind of inventers under us, but it will be in the most NO reason to get a patent for it. (Except something very special) The finger sling I made is/was different to the finger sling on the market but it was difficult approx. 16 years ago to get a patent on it. (to much money too) A sling is a sling, even they are different.
> 
> Again, it will be good for the sport that people always think about doing something special, so it can help others too.


I think it is very interesting that you chose to post this now. Aren't you the one that shoots at the same range with Matt? Didn't you ask to have a look at his tab a few months back? Didn't you tell him that it was a great idea and innovative? Did you not tell him you wanted to sell it? Wasn't that conversation over heard by an attorney that shoots at the same range and you recently received a letter from him? Aren't you the one that called Coach Laney and asked about specifics of his tab then suddenly it showed up on your website? Interesting indeed.


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## Mithril

You know, I'm told that Earl Hoyt patented the clicker, but he didn't invent it.



> I for one have shot this tab for a good length enough to know that it is a great tab, and imo is better than any other tab on the market for a high caliber shooter.


Until a really high caliber shooter does something with it, that's an empty statement. For now we have the Cavalier tab which was used to shoot a 1405. So maybe that's the best tab until someone proves otherwise?


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## Jim C

geeez people

if you dont want to buy the tab that is your right but lets stop taking cheap shots at these people. I have tried most tabs on the market-I keep returning to cavaliers but the angel, the soma, the spig, the wilson, the JVD etc are all good tabs. I don't spend time bashing them because something else works better for ME.


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## K1archer

Landed in AZ

To make it clear, should I feel sorry that I used rubber bands on one finger, two fingers or even on three fingers (today to 38 years back, and used most of the time my own build tabs), and build this tab a couple of years ago, even before Matt started to shoot recurve. I saw the tab a couple of month ago, after Gary asked me to take a look at the tab to get my opinion on it? I told him, It looks like it is a very nice tab and I mentioned I did something similar in the past. As far as for the selling part: yes, and I still do. I emailed somebody (I believe it was Coach Laney) about where he gets the leather from only, but again this is a couple of years back.


----------



## Landed in AZ

K1archer said:


> Landed in AZ
> 
> To make it clear, should I feel sorry that I used rubber bands on one finger, two fingers or even on three fingers (today to 38 years back, and used most of the time my own build tabs), and build this tab a couple of years ago, even before Matt started to shoot recurve. I saw the tab a couple of month ago, after Gary asked me to take a look at the tab to get my opinion on it? I told him, It looks like it is a very nice tab and I mentioned I did something similar in the past. As far as for the selling part: yes, and I still do. I emailed somebody (I believe it was Coach Laney) about where he gets the leather from only, but again this is a couple of years back.


Yeah Okay, that is your story but most of us know the truth, like all the questions you asked Coach Laney about his tab and the detailed info you took from him prior to selling a similar tab on your website. As for Matt and Gary, I think you know that is *not* how it happened. Otherwise you would not have gotten the letter in the mail...RIGHT??? Nuff said.


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## Warbow

I have no way to know who's claims in the above posts are true, but the issue needn't ever arise to that level. Absent any specific government granted monopoly, such as copyright, patent or trademark, people can legally copy devices or improve upon them and make and sell their own version. And that, frankly, is the only reason coach Laney and Zumbas were able to develop their own tabs. They were able to freely copy and incorporate ideas that they did not invent into their tabs: multiple layers of leather with a split for Mediterranean loose, a tapped metal plate afixed to the leather by screws, a strap on the back of the tab, a finger spacer, a long finger spacer, etc. And they were able to create fine tabs praised by many. Now they have to compete in the marketplace--the marketplace of ideas, of products, of marketing, of customer service rather than on the basis of having a government granted monopoly on an idea. Competition is capitalism--the economic system the country is based on. And may the best products, best values and best customer service win. And good will can play a part. If the folks really like the people at Black Mamba because they worked hard and are great guys, that can count for something too.

As an archer, I think it is great to have so many options--options that nobody could have invented, options we wouldn't have, if every tiny aspect of a tab was patented. If everything was patented, nobody would be able to make new tab designs because any and every new design would violate existing basic patents. I think a lot of people don't really think about how much design is founded on the prior work of others which they take for granted, instead thinking only of their own effort and contribution. Patents can serve to inhibit innovation and competition rather than encourage it.


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## Landed in AZ

Warbow, I really think the patent idea is dead and that is not the issue here. The issue here is being a snake. Zumbos and Laney are not snakes, they are open about what they produced and when they produced it. You are correct that options are what makes the world go around and like JimC said, it is great to try what's out there. Just be forth right in how you do business. I think that is all that anyone wants and cares about.


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## K1archer

Landed in AZ said:


> Warbow, I really think the patent idea is dead and that is not the issue here. The issue here is being a snake. Zumbos and Laney are not snakes, they are open about what they produced and when they produced it. You are correct that options are what makes the world go around and like JimC said, it is great to try what's out there. Just be forth right in how you do business. I think that is all that anyone wants and cares about.


Thanks, I'm not a snack either 

You know everything from third hand and I know what happened at that time.
I did not have to go around and talk. I did not have to claim it was my idea, I only took from the past a idea and open the hole, so something what was needed fits in.
And the result was, what you can see on the picture. That's all.


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## Warbow

Landed in AZ said:


> Zumbos and Laney are not snakes


I've never heard anything bad about them and I'm glad they've produced some great equipment. And I agree that folks should reward people they like and respect with their business, especially if they produce a great product. I know I'll be pointing out the Black Mamba site to people looking for a great tab.


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## Huntmaster

well, what fun! 

Patentable? You mean if it has four wheels and an engine, it's a car, it's a car, it's a car? (you seem to think a tab is a tab is a tab) I'm not exactly sure you know your patent laws from the inlaws to be honest, but I'd like to know exactly who really gives a rats behind if Gary intends to get a patent, can get a patent, wants to get a patent, or doesn't give a who either way? 

The piont is intelectual material is exactly that. There are those of us who know the truth in this (and Gary is on the up and up here). Good business rules are something someone here should be looking at, and if they don't agree, come right out and say it. I'm talking business ethics here folks, something that seems to be in short supply these days.


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## Warbow

Huntmaster said:


> well, what fun!
> 
> Patentable? You mean if it has four wheels and an engine, it's a car, it's a car, it's a car? (you seem to think a tab is a tab is a tab)


Well, I guess the patent issue isn't so dead after all. And, no, I don't think all tabs are the same. But being different doesn't make something patentable. To be patentable, an invention must be useful, novel and non-obvious to an expert in the field. Anything that is not useful, not novel or would be obvious to an expert in the field is not patentable. Adding a hole to a finger spacer seems unlikely to fit the latter two.




Huntmaster said:


> I'm not exactly sure you know your patent laws from the inlaws to be honest, but I'd like to know exactly who really gives a rats behind if Gary intends to get a patent, can get a patent, wants to get a patent, or doesn't give a who either way?


If you think I've mistated patent law please quote where you think I've made an error and say what you think the correct information would be. I'm not an expert in patent law, but I do have opinions on it. 

As to why I'd be concerned about patenting a small aspect of a tab? It's because I think patents can hinder innovation. Gary was only able to create the Black Mamba tab because he was able to copy existing features of tabs currently on the market. He doesn't want anyone to be able to do to him what he did to others--copy design features, features which he may well not have been the first to invent. How will the next Gary be able to create the next great tab if Gary can patent and monopolize what may well be an existing and obvious idea? 

I'd like others to be able to do in future what Gary did. And patents would hinder that.



Huntmaster said:


> I'm talking business ethics here folks, something that seems to be in short supply these days.


That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. There is no way for me to know who's averments are true. If there is a matter of law to be settled then the parties can seek legal advice.


----------



## Vittorio

The spacer design is surely innovative, only question is how one size of spacer like this will fit all hands, that notoriously have different finger lenghts.

Anyhow, as also notoriously I don't suggst to use finger spacers, this is not important to me, but I surely like the idea of one size only tab, if it will provide enought stability with one plate size only.


----------



## gairsz

K1archer said:


> Landed in AZ
> 
> I saw the tab a couple of month ago, after Gary asked me to take a look at the tab to get my opinion on it? I told him, It looks like it is a very nice tab and I mentioned I did something similar in the past.


Over the past three years Matt and I have coached this gentlemen many times at the outdoor range where we shoot. He and Matt have shot together on multiple California teams at the duel in Desert in Arizona. As far as shooters go, he can’t even stand in Matt’s shadow. With Matt’s access to Coach Lee, Guy Kruger, Terry Laney, and the entire Dream Team Coaching staff, and all the previous testing and development we performed, why would I ask for his advice? He is delusional. That is not how it went. Like I said before, the copycats are coming. I want to protect my sixteen year old son’s hard work, that’s all. If I can’t, then I can’t. We are still going to sell this tab. We make one thing, a finger tab, so we are going to try to bring you best quality tab available.

We are listening. We appreciate all of the advice that you have offered us, positive and negative. Like someone else has said in a previous post, we are not going to get rich selling tabs, but maybe this can help fund a young athlete’s dream of reaching Olympic gold. Those of you that want to take that way may want to take a good look in the mirror and see if you like what you see. Trying to get some of the credit, some of the attention, or a piece of the glory, is just pathetic.

On the other hand, thank you to each and every one of you that have shown your support for Matt over the past four year. We are working very hard to bring you the level of workmanship you deserve for your hard earned dollar. When we are satisfied that all of the components meet the level of quality you expect, then we will open the website for sales. It should be very soon.

Ultimately, Black Mamba Archery is Matt’s company. It is named after his Black Hoyt GMX bow that he named the Black Mamba. Over the past few years he has learned about research and development, and over time he will learn more about the manufacturing, production, sale, and delivery of his product. Eventually he will run all aspects of this endeavor. It is as much of a learning experience for a young boy as it is a fun project for a father and a son. Until then, I am overseeing these things, he is the salesman. So if you see him on the field and you have any questions, he is the man to talk to.

Thanks again for your support.

Gary Zumbo


----------



## gairsz

Warbow. your mail box if full. I want's to send you a private message but I could not.

Gary


----------



## teammemphis

Gary, This thread is getting way to far out of hand. This is not what this was for, Why don't you just close this thread. Anyway I am with Barb on what she posted earlier. I to have been told the stories by Coach Laney, Gary and Matt about K1Archer. EVERYONE JUST LEAVE THESE GUYS ALONE. What in the hell are you getting out of bashing these guys? You accually have no right to come in here and talk to/about these guys like you have.


----------



## Warbow

gairsz said:


> Warbow. your mail box if full. I want's to send you a private message but I could not.
> 
> Gary


I'll take care of that. And let me add that while I have a number of opinions on the utility of patents and innovation I also respect and admire the work you and your son have done to develop your Venom tab and bring it to market as a quality product. I wish you success in your venture. The tab is a great addition to the line of quality products archers can choose from. My opinions on patents are in no way meant as a personal criticism of you or your product. As with all people, you are fully entitled to seek patent protection for the parts of your tab that you independently invented if they meet the requirements for a US patent. My disagreement is with excessive patents in general and not you personally.


----------



## Warbow

teammemphis said:


> You accually have no right to come in here and talk to/about these guys like you have.


I'm all for decorum. However, if you think about what you are saying *you* are criticizing people as part of your post saying that nobody should criticize people in this forum.


----------



## K1archer

gairsz said:


> Over the past three years Matt and I have coached this gentlemen many times at the outdoor range where we shoot. He and Matt have shot together on multiple California teams at the duel in Desert in Arizona. As far as shooters go, he can’t even stand in Matt’s shadow. With Matt’s access to Coach Lee, Guy Kruger, Terry Laney, and the entire Dream Team Coaching staff, and all the previous testing and development we performed, why would I ask for his advice? He is delusional. That is not how it went. Like I said before, the copycats are coming. I want to protect my sixteen year old son’s hard work, that’s all. If I can’t, then I can’t. We are still going to sell this tab. We make one thing, a finger tab, so we are going to try to bring you best quality tab available.
> 
> We are listening. We appreciate all of the advice that you have offered us, positive and negative. Like someone else has said in a previous post, we are not going to get rich selling tabs, but maybe this can help fund a young athlete’s dream of reaching Olympic gold. Those of you that want to take that way may want to take a good look in the mirror and see if you like what you see. Trying to get some of the credit, some of the attention, or a piece of the glory, is just pathetic.
> 
> On the other hand, thank you to each and every one of you that have shown your support for Matt over the past four year. We are working very hard to bring you the level of workmanship you deserve for your hard earned dollar. When we are satisfied that all of the components meet the level of quality you expect, then we will open the website for sales. It should be very soon.
> 
> Ultimately, Black Mamba Archery is Matt’s company. It is named after his Black Hoyt GMX bow that he named the Black Mamba. Over the past few years he has learned about research and development, and over time he will learn more about the manufacturing, production, sale, and delivery of his product. Eventually he will run all aspects of this endeavor. It is as much of a learning experience for a young boy as it is a fun project for a father and a son. Until then, I am overseeing these things, he is the salesman. So if you see him on the field and you have any questions, he is the man to talk to.
> 
> Thanks again for your support.
> 
> Gary Zumbo




Thanks Gary, for the “gentleman”.
But let’s change the 3 years of giving some information to 1 year; I really appreciate it, and everything else we talked about. Yes, I agree I cannot even stand in Matt’s shadow, but I’m still shooting and I'm happy for him or everybody else. 

But let's go back to the tab:
Trying to get some of the credit, some of the attention, no I don't have to and I did not go around and tell stories or claimed it, did I? Again I don’t need to feel sorry; I discovered many things in the past when I came across through my passion for archery, and NOW do I have to be afraid to make it? No I don’t. I will tell you something, I had almost 12 years ago a little piece modified for a big Sight company. I showed it to them and they told me it is expensive to do. However, today I know for sure it is only two steps more machining and we might talk about 1 or 2 cents for the part, but it would be much better for the users. By today the company still is not doing it, and maybe I should do it. In this case I might be not in a good situation either, right?

*I think we should stop doing it and if you want to talk to me in person please feel free to that, because now we turn in a circle and we can clean it up.*

As far as for the: *We are still going to sell this tab. We make one thing, a finger tab, so we are going to try to bring you best quality tab available.* You should, why not?


----------



## ArtV

Gary, frankly the value of a patent is very debatable, but if do forge ahead. Be reminded of this....4 or 5 years ago a couple of guys got a patent on longbow limbs, The testing did prove the limbs better than anything on the market...and sales sored. Now who would think one little design change on something that has been around for as long as longbow limb would create such outstanding sales...without the patent it wouldn't of happened....

As far as original art..doesn't matter worth a squat unless it has been patented and/or copywrited or registered in some way, because nothing is original unless it is claimed. Everything is based on something else and then improved/copied, ask our friends in Southeast Asia.

Full cost of the patent including the search to see if it is viable will run around $25,000. minimum. Good luck.

Warbow, you'd discourage a rat from eating a piece of cheese. And then, while he starves try to convince him you did him a favor. Odd.

Art:smileinbox:


----------



## Warbow

ArtV said:


> Warbow, you'd discourage a rat from eating a piece of cheese. And then, while he starves try to convince him you did him a favor. Odd.


If you think I've misstated patent law or if you disagree with my opinions on how patents can hinder innovation please state what, exactly, you disagree with and why. Your post seems to only reinforce what I have said vis-a-vis patents.


----------



## c3hammer

These kinds of stories are unfortunately rather funny. There's definitely nothing new under the sun 

Here's my tab design I started on in 2005. I have all the cad models and even machined the first 3d back plates in 2006. This pic is of the tab I won the Cal Cup with in 2007.

Nice design but it's surely not patentable.

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## Matt Zumbo

*Open for business*

The production of the No Slip Positive Locking Buckle is now complete. See photo below. The website will be open for sale tomorrow, with items shipping estimated by the end of next week.











Thank you for your support,

Matt Zumbo


----------



## Landed in AZ

Matt Zumbo said:


> The production of the No Slip Positive Locking Buckle is now complete. See photo below. The website will be open for sale tomorrow, with items shipping estimated by the end of next week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your support,
> 
> Matt Zumbo


Very impressive Matt. Congrats on finally getting the tab to the final stage. :wav::wav:


----------



## Mithril

I think some photos showing how you load an arrow or write on a scorecard with that thing on your hand would be interesting... or are you one of those guys who refuses to keep score?


----------



## gairsz

Mithril said:


> I think some photos showing how you load an arrow or write on a scorecard with that thing on your hand would be interesting... or are you one of those guys who refuses to keep score?


Ok, you got it. Photos coming.


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## tkaap

That tab looks great. Once it's got a shelf and comes in green, I'll have to seriously think about picking one up. Or perhaps if the webbing comes in green, that could work, too.



But either way, I wouldn't count on the US patent office to settle a dispute about what is and isn't "new". That's just going to be each person's opinion (including, if necessary, a judge). 
After all, these are the same geniuses that issued patents for:

A stick taken from a tree:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=hhYJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

A child swinging sideways on a swing:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2178-boy-takes-swing-at-us-patents.html

-T


----------



## gairsz

tkaap said:


> That tab looks great. Once it's got a shelf and comes in green, I'll have to seriously think about picking one up. Or perhaps if the webbing comes in green, that could work, too.


That is funny, I didn't think anyone would like green. Apparently I was wrong since I have had a number of requests. We will have green on the next run of plates. We are considering a camo plate with a dark green spacer and dark green or camo strap. 

Gary


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## gairsz

Site is open for sale.


----------



## coach1

gairsz said:


> Site is open for sale.


www.blackmambaarchery.com


----------



## ArtV

I think a major point from all this, is, some folks like to tinker with stuff and find their own innovations..Like C3Hammer and others...folks like me really don't care to...I'd rather buy one..see if it works for me and proceed on. The point to bringing anything new to the market is simple...do it well regardless of what anyone says then sell (market) the hell out of it.

The camo plate sounds cool..I can hold my hand up in front of me and disappear...:wink:

Warbow, I wasn't talking about your dissertation on patent law...you missed the point..


----------



## tkaap

gairsz said:


> We will have green on the next run of plates. We are considering a camo plate with a dark green spacer and dark green or camo strap.


Then I hope this first run of plates sells out really quickly!

Also, hopefully the camo design is separate from the green design... I already have enough trouble finding my tab some days...

-T


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## gairsz

We have changed our online store to accommodated international sales and shipping. Sorry for this over-site. We hope the new store is a much smoother experience for everyone.:smile:

Gary Zumbo


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## Sanford

gairsz said:


> We have changed our online store to accommodated international sales and shipping. Sorry for this over-site. We hope the new store is a much smoother experience for everyone.:smile:
> 
> Gary Zumbo


Glad to see the PayPal option added. Ordered mine this morning and looking forward to giving the tab a try.


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## Acehero

Whats the shipping rate overseas? I couldnt see it listed on the Paypal page or at checkout.


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## NHSarcher

*Looks Good*

Looks like a good product Gary. Best of luck to you and Matt on this.


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## Jim C

Just ordered-look forward to trying them out


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## gairsz

Acehero said:


> Whats the shipping rate overseas? I couldnt see it listed on the Paypal page or at checkout.


We have chosen at this time to use USPS flat rate shipping domestic and international. Shipping and handling in the USA is 7.95, and internationally it is $15.95. As our learning curve flattens out I am sure we will be adding additional shipping methods.
Thanks for your support,
Gary Zumbo


----------



## jarda

Gary,
I have tried to order venom tab today, but during checkout - yahoo don’t offer in delivery address my country - Czech Republic. Only my suggestion - I think that better way is offer your product on ebay with fix prices.
Jaroslav


----------



## gairsz

jarda said:


> Gary,
> I have tried to order venom tab today, but during checkout - yahoo don’t offer in delivery address my country - Czech Republic. Only my suggestion - I think that better way is offer your product on ebay with fix prices.
> Jaroslav


Thank you for the suggestion, I will look into that. I added your country to the shipping list, so you should be able to buy now.

Thank you for your interest,

Gary Zumbo


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## jarda

Many Thanks . I have placed order.

Jaroslav


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## limbwalker

congratulations on a good tab design and website. You guys should be very proud. Put a ledge on that baby, and I'll give one a try, because every other aspect of it looks pretty spot-on to me.

John


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## calbowdude

I would also like a ledge option at some point. Otherwise the tab looks very intriguing, intriguing enough to buy one.


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## gairsz

limbwalker said:


> Put a ledge on that baby, and I'll give one a try.


I guess Matt and I better get on that ledge design. Thanks guys for the possitive feedback. 

Gary


----------



## limbwalker

Gary, the ledge on the Cavalier tab is a good place to start for a design. I like how flat and thick it is. It doesn't dig into your face. Some ledges are made of metal that is way too thin IMO. Also, it's nice to have the ledge, leather and plate all mate up at the same level on the top of the tab if possible.

I think there are some good pictures available on-line of the ledges used by many world class archers. Ms. Park of Korea used a pretty "stock" Cavalier tab and ledge in Athens, with a custom finger spacer. Butch Johnson has crafted some pretty interesting ledges that I've seen too. But like I said, there's nothing wrong with the standard Cavalier ledge IMO. It's the one I have grown to depend on.

John


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## calbowdude

Once again agreed on John's point about a thick, beefy, non-bending ledge. I actually resorted to reinforcing the old cavalier elite ledge with carbon fiber, until they came out with a thicker ledge design. Or, possibly something made of stainless steel like I thought I saw on the website.


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## gairsz

Thanks guys. It sounds like good advice to me. Matt doesn't shoot a ledge, so we will have to take input from those who do. We are working on it.

Gary


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## Miltiadis

I have one on the road… but no choice of size!!! 
does a size cover all off us ?


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## gairsz

Miltiadis said:


> I have one on the road… but no choice of size!!!
> does a size cover all off us ?


Yes, since the plate we designed is fairly small this tab will fit most people except for the people with very small hands. The strap and the leather are way over sized and will have to be cut for almost everyone. If someone orders a tab and the leather and or strap are not big enough, we will custom cut a larger strap and leather for them. I was informed last night that a very small 11 year old shot one or our samples and it fit perfectly. 

We will be posting some pictures and video when we get a chance.

Gary


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## gairsz

*Venom comparison video*

The link to the video below demonstrates why we use a static material like 3/8 inch nylon webbing rather than a dynamic material like elastic. The goal of our tab was to increase consistency, and by eliminating, or at least minimizing movement of the finger tab, the consistency of release will also increase.

You can clearly see that the top video, our tab, has no movement as release. In the bottom video you can clearly see the problem with dynamic materials like elastic. There is movement at release. If you are trying to anchor something in place you don’t want stretch. Examples of this would be car seat belts, equipment tie downs, even shoe laces. Runners don’t use slip-on shoes to run the 100 meter dash. They tie their shoes on so they don’t fly off.

We saw an area that we thought we could improve on so we tried. I think we did a pretty god job.

Gary


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## cpdasso

Have orders been shipping out yet? I'm hoping to be able to try and use this for the PA state indoor on Feb. 5th


----------



## gairsz

cpdasso said:


> Have orders been shipping out yet? I'm hoping to be able to try and use this for the PA state indoor on Feb. 5th


Pete, and everyone that has purchased a tab we thank you for your patients. The company that is doing the injection molding on the finger spacers had some trouble with the color matching and did not deliver my spacers at the beginning of the past week like they promised. We asked them to just go ahead and make the black spacers so we could start filling orders. Hopefully they will be ready tomorrow and we will start shipping on Tuesday for the customers that only need black finger spacers, which you are one of them. There is a possibility that the colored spacers will be ready as well, but if not, very shortly after. For the customers that ordered over this past week, we are going to send them UPS 2 day and we will take care of the difference on the shipping cost. The response has been great, and we want the product in your hands. We will send an email shipment confirmation when the orders ship.

We expected to ship Thursday or Friday of this past week, sorry for the delay, and thanks again for interest and support.

Gary


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## gairsz

gairsz said:


> The link to the video below demonstrates why we use a static material like 3/8 inch nylon webbing rather than a dynamic material like elastic. The goal of our tab was to increase consistency, and by eliminating, or at least minimizing movement of the finger tab, the consistency of release will also increase.
> 
> You can clearly see that the top video, our tab, has no movement as release. In the bottom video you can clearly see the problem with dynamic materials like elastic. There is movement at release. If you are trying to anchor something in place you don’t want stretch. Examples of this would be car seat belts, equipment tie downs, even shoe laces. Runners don’t use slip-on shoes to run the 100 meter dash. They tie their shoes on so they don’t fly off.
> 
> We saw an area that we thought we could improve on so we tried. I think we did a pretty god job.


I don't think the other video worked, so here is a better link.

Elastic vs. nylon strap.










Gary


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## jhinaz

I just received my Venon tabs and they are a high quality product!......and the "grain" of the cordovan is oriented in the proper direction! I've got a tournament this weekend and don't want to change tabs this late in the game, therefore I won't have a chance to really try them out for a few days yet . I'll report on them after I get a chance to shoot with them, but for now, what I can say is I have received EXCELLENT COMMUNICATION and CUSTOMER SERVICE from gairsz. IMHO Black Mamba Tabs is a real winner. - John

PS. gairsz. do you have any hints to tell us about how tight to make the strap?


----------



## gairsz

jhinaz said:


> gairsz. do you have any hints to tell us about how tight to make the strap?


I can tell you that Matt snugs up the strap at the index finger, then ring finger and then his third finger and locks the buckle. He has been shooting this style tab for three years. The tab is designed to be left on during the shooting rounds. If you have seen Matt at tournaments you know he never takes it off. It has become part him. I have seen him eating lunch with it on at times. If you prefer removing the tab from end to end you will find that the two finger position allows for greater ease of removal. Over time you will see that the tab is very comfortable and you wont notice that you are wearing it. I don't shoot, but that is what has been said to me. I hope that helps.

Thank you so much for your feedback and support.

Gary and Matt


----------



## Sanford

Worked a bit with mine this afternoon. Excellent build and quality leather. There should be no archer needing more leather (oversized) and have only trimmed mine in bulk so far. I still need to shoot a bit before further trimming.

It is not a tab you will take on and off between rounds or scoring. The strap feels very secure and makes the tab very stable but does require to be set and has to be undone to remove. Elastic could be an option for others who want quick on and off, and I may do that later. Although, the secure feel and stability is what differniates this tab from others as I can tell so far.

The ledge from my Cavalier will bolt on, as will the Venom finger spacer to my Cavalier (sorry, had to try). I have grown accustomed to the nock cutout on my Cav and may v-groove the plate on my Venom to replicate that aspect that I like. 

Thanks for the quick turnaround.


----------



## gairsz

We are working on a ledge design. We will have a picture of what we are doing this weekend.

Gary.


----------



## gairsz

*Ledge*

How is this for a start?










Gary


----------



## limbwalker

Uhm, nice shape, but way too low. Ledge needs to be even with the top of the leather.

The fact that your plate is not that tall may complicate things though. W&W tabs had a similar issue. I never really liked their ledge. For some reason, the Cavalier plate/ledge/leather alignment is just the best for a solid anchor that I've ever tried. 

Can you raise the ledge to the top of the leather somehow? Perhaps a ledge with a second thickness above the screws that will sit right on top of the existing plate and extend above it to the edge of the leather? That would affect it's adjustability some, but it would fill the gap between the ledge and the leather in the absence of the plate being there...

John


----------



## Sanford

It will go higher and above plate and leather. The two holes you used are open but will restrict it to just that height. I used the top open hole (of the two screw holes you are using) and the hole above that can be borrowed or shared with the leather screw. The Cavalier ledge is of similar dimension and will have sufficient adjustability using the upper holes.


----------



## jhinaz

limbwalker said:


> Uhm, nice shape, but way too low. Ledge needs to be even with the top of the leather.


From the looks of gairsz' "low shelf" position I would guess it's intended to be for a thumb-rest rather than a jaw-bone-rest. But that's just a guess. - John


----------



## gairsz

Yes, it can go way higher. some people like to put there thumb on the top of the ledge. I just put in that position to try it.


----------



## limbwalker

That's cool, but it still needs to be even/level with the top of the leather. Otherwise, the edge of the leather will dig into the jawbone before the ledge ever gets there...

What you have there is basically the W&W tab design (as far as the plate and ledge go).


----------



## Mithril

limbwalker said:


> For some reason, the Cavalier plate/ledge/leather alignment is just the best for a solid anchor that I've ever tried.


+1 on that. By the way, it looks like the tab that Brady used to shoot those 42 consecutive 10's (!!) in the Nimes eliminations uses... elastic. Go figger.


----------



## calbowdude

Darn it, took a while for me to figure out what John was saying. 

But I agree, as another longtime ledge shooter (albeit nowhere near the quality of John), I would like to see a tab body that is "taller" so that it's at least the height of the index finger. Basically the same tab, but just add a bit of height onto the plate above the spacer hole. 

Thanks for being open to suggestions.


----------



## gairsz

We designed this tab plate to be lower and out of the way for unobstructed contact between the index finger and jaw. Saying that, there is no reason the ledge can’t be taller so those that like a ledge can use this tab as well. The leather is way over size, hence the one size fits all, so most people will have to cut the leather down. I guess the ledge could be a touch longer to cover all bases. The final version will be laser cut and bent stainless steel. This is less expensive than machining and will keep the cost down. I am a parent that is paying for my son's archery and I understand the cost of this sport, so we are going to try to keep this tab as inexpensive as possible. We will keep working on it. Thanks for the input.

Gary


----------



## arrow1347

gary , received tab today, i like it , can't wait to try it out. i'll let you know how it feels after i shoot it awhile. thanks barry


----------



## limbwalker

Gary, no need to apologize as I'm certain this tab will be a great option for many shooters. Hard to make a tab that works for everyone, esp. the ledge/no ledge shooters...

I tried to shoot a W&W tab w/o a ledge for about a year because it's what coach Lee was recommending at the time, and what we had the JDT kids using. Well, for a lot of unforseen reasons, I won't be doing that again... As soon as I switched back to my Cav. tabs with the ledge, my scores immediately went back to normal... So I learned my lesson. 

Anyway, yours is a great looking product with two features that I really like. The finger spacer and finger loops look like excellent improvements over what we've been using...

John.


----------



## Landed in AZ

Kiley shot her new tab today and her first response when the first arrow went off was "holy crap". It was like shooting a back tension release and not knowing when the arrow is going off. It is the fastest tab she has ever shot. She really enjoyed shooting the tab today. Just blank bale today. Target tomorrow.


----------



## icessarchery

Gary and Matt thank you so building this tab. I love it very much and I didn't have any pain while i shot the tab. I am looking forward to shooting it tomorrow and the next day and this whole week and during tournaments. So thank you again for building this tab.


----------



## cpdasso

I had my first chance to test my tab today and I really liked it, and I'm going to make it my primary shooting tab. I ended up shortening the spacer a bit as it was a little too close to touching the nock of my arrow for comfort, but besides that I have no complaints.


----------



## gairsz

cpdasso said:


> I had my first chance to test my tab today and I really liked it, and I'm going to make it my primary shooting tab. I ended up shortening the spacer a bit as it was a little too close to touching the nock of my arrow for comfort, but besides that I have no complaints.


That is great, thank you for the positive feedback. 

Gary and Matt.


----------



## Jim C

got my three a couple days ago. very well made. The only issue is how much to trim them down. Our state shoot is on President's day weekend-after that I don't have any tournaments till our outdoor season starts in May (too busing coaching at NAA Indoor and NFAA to shoot) then I will really start working with these tabs.

I note I have fairly large hands-shoot a Cavalier Large and find the Saker Medium slightly small and the Saker Large slightly too big and there is PLENTY of leather for even someone with hands 30% larger than mine.

the spacer is really good


----------



## gairsz

Here are a couple pictures of Matt's tab. To get a pretty good idea where to start cutting, hook your string and have someone mark where your fingers end on the leather. After you shoot the tab you can fine tune the final cutting. Matt has the leather way below his index finger just above the plate to allow for a solid and unobstructed anchor with his jaw.


















I hope that helps a little. Matt's tab is a one of a kind carbon fiber plate with stainless steel threaded inserts and a camo strap. The shape and spacer are exactly the same. He has been shooting it for over two years with the same leather. The only thing that has changed is the spacer shape and the strap. It is nasty. I am sure you can tell by the photo.

Gary


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## Jim C

thanks, I was going to go really slow 

I have a dozen tabs I have shot over the years as a guide as well


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## gairsz

Jim, that would work as well. I have had a few calls about cutting. Nobody wants to mess up.

Gary


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## Sanford

Jim C said:


> thanks, I was going to go really slow
> 
> I have a dozen tabs I have shot over the years as a guide as well


Jim, a bit of caution on this tab. Don't assume off the shape of your others unless they cinch the same. I found that with this tab, and since it fits the hand in a more fixed position, allowing for finger placement is a fixed measure as well. All three fingers are placed and spaced according to the plate and strap. t's almost imperative that one measures the cut with the tab affixed to the hand.


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## gairsz

Sanford said:


> Jim, a bit of caution on this tab. Don't assume off the shape of your others unless they cinch the same. I found that with this tab, and since it fits the hand in a more fixed position, allowing for finger placement is a fixed measure as well. It's almost imperative that one measures the cut with the tab affixed to the hand.


Good point. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.


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## tjk009

My 9 year old and I got our tabs a few days ago. Several trimming sessions later I can report mine works great and I am able to find a good solid anchor, although I need to figure out the final placement. I can get under my chin more and that seems to allow me to get my shoulder around more. I was pulling through the clicker too easy and needed to adjust it. My son's hands are pretty small so we needed to do some grinding on the front of the spacer. He needs to practice some arrow loading before the weekend. The tabs are really well made, everyone wanted to buy my spare at league. Nice job, Mr. Zumbo and father.


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## need-a-bow

So how much is the current price? I cant open the link on my computer


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## gairsz

need-a-bow said:


> So how much is the current price? I cant open the link on my computer


39.95 for the black and silver, and 44.95 for all other colors.

The website is www.blackmambaarchery.com.

The direct link to the yahoo store is http://yhst-129515003820449.stores.yahoo.net/

Gary


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## cpdasso

One more comment after 2 days of shooting: I'd suggest moving the hole in the spacer where the strap passes through further up near the top of the spacer. Right now, the edge of the strap where it emerges out of the spacer is cutting into my index finger and left a raw red spot after 3 hours of shooting (I'm going to have to wear a bandaid over that spot for the next few days!). Or, perhaps a thinner, lighter material for the finger strap?


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## gairsz

cpdasso said:


> One more comment after 2 days of shooting: I'd suggest moving the hole in the spacer where the strap passes through further up near the top of the spacer. Right now, the edge of the strap where it emerges out of the spacer is cutting into my index finger and left a raw red spot after 3 hours of shooting (I'm going to have to wear a bandaid over that spot for the next few days!). Or, perhaps a thinner, lighter material for the finger strap?


I am not sure why you are having this problem. We have not experienced this before. Too tight or too lose maybe. We have had the slot in the spacer in a higher position and the tab would slip and move forward at release. The location of the slot in the spacer assures that the strap will hold even very small fingers. We will think about this and see what we can come up with. Let me know how it is going and thanks for the feedback.

Gary


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## Acehero

Hows the ledge coming along? I plan to order a tab as soon as you have them ready.


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## gairsz

Acehero said:


> Hows the ledge coming along? I plan to order a tab as soon as you have them ready.


We finshed the CAD design. We should have a sample for vegas and pictures before.

Gary


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## mbu

gairsz said:


> ... The location of the slot in the spacer assures that the strap will hold even very small fingers. We will think about this and see what we can come up with. ....
> 
> Gary


Perhaps there could be 2 slots: lower location for smaller fingers and higher location for larger fingers?


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## coach1

If you are in Vegas and would like to see the tab up close and personal they are available at the Lancaster Archery Trade Show Booth.


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## gairsz

We have finished our ledge. They will be available in about two weeks.

Gary


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## calbowdude

Hi Gary, 

Is this a steel ledge? If it's aluminium, it may be easy to bend for those of us who "anchor firmly"...


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## gairsz

calbowdude said:


> Hi Gary,
> 
> Is this a steel ledge? If it's aluminium, it may be easy to bend for those of us who "anchor firmly"...


Laser cut stainless steel. Tumbled to smooth the edges. This material does not bend very easy.


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## ArtV

Man, you guys are getting a bunch of free advertising. Have you thought about becoming a sponsor in AT?....it's the old fashion pay-as-you-go plan.


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## Landed in AZ

Nice looking shelf Matt/Gary. Good job on the hard work for that, I know it is not easy when you don't shoot with one yourself. Awesome job you guys. Be proud.


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## calbowdude

gairsz said:


> Laser cut stainless steel. Tumbled to smooth the edges. This material does not bend very easy.


Excellent! I will be trying out one of these when the ledge is available. I'm starting to go through tabs, to try and find "the one."


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## Matt Zumbo

*Venom options*

I want to show you some options and ideas customers and friends have come up with.

My friend Miranda Leek said the buckle might work well on the top for more tension on the index finger. It does.








It even works with two buckles.








There is also a two finger option with the buckle on the bottom.








And buckle on the top








One of our customers requested the leather without a split in it. We can do that.









Matt


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## gairsz

For those who have requested a ledge, they are now available. Also, leather trimming instructions are available online under the news section at our website or go here: 

http://http://www.blackmambaarchery.com/Documents/BMA_Venom_Tab_Trimming_Directions.pdf

I hope that helps.

Gary


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## caspian

you can't fault the options available, can you?

good trimming instructions, too.


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## Matt Zumbo

We are launching our new Venom II Finger Tab soon and I thought you would like to take look.









The Venom II Finger Tab has a smaller plate than the original Venom Tab to accommodate smaller size hands. The NNP Finger Spacer is the same as the original.

The Venom II is a three finger tab with a two finger strap and spacer design, and has all the same features as the Original Venom Tab just in a compact size. The two finger strap and spacer design allows for easier cinching and removal of the Venom II Finger Tab.

We will be producing this tab with oversize leather to accommodate larger hand shooters that would prefer to shoot the two finger strap design.

Matthew Zumbo

Black Mamba Archery
Win & Win
Carbon Express
Doinker


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## limbwalker

Nice product. I am using their cordovan face and suede backing on both of my tabs now. Excellent quality. 

John


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## TexARC

I don't drop in as much to AT as I used to, and many of the people posting in this thread serve to remind me why I don't. 

I like good spelling, and labor to be concise and accurate, I even raised an English Major who whut done even gradjiated. But I shore don't hang the moon on it. 

I also am amazed at how many people are so eager to display their own lack of smarts in a worldwide way by being hostile, disdainful, and just plain rude to someone like Gairsz who is actually *doing* something positive for the sport.

I had only to look closely at the finger tab a few days ago to see EXACTLY what was innovative and clever, worthy of protection, and to realize it was very interesting. (and also conclude that I would like to have one to try out!) 

Why would anyone sitting in the cheap seats be so damn snippy as some are in this thread? Jeez. 

From the golden days of the Sagittarius Board, there have always been the "churners" who like to hear their own voices ignorantly spouting off nonsense. Unfortunately it clearly carries through to today's thread. 

Gary, stay the course....and best of luck! :wink:


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## TwilightSea

Sweet to see that you're making a second variation. That's always a good sign of business. I like my current "MK I" tab so I'll keep it, and I prefer a three-finger strap over two. Personal preference. I take "MK II" is great for kids?


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## limbwalker

> From the golden days of the Sagittarius Board


Ron, I miss those days.


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## TomB

limbwalker said:


> Ron, I miss those days.


Ditto. I lurked and learned. Better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.


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## calbowdude

those were indeed the days. I liked the online league option too, it helped to organize and direct my practice sessions.


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## gairsz

We have received some great news today. The U.S. Patent Office has granted the allowance for our Venom finger tab, specifically the cinching system. It has been a long process, and a very educational one.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130000007 I don't think this is the final.

The elite finger tab market has exploded since the time we announced our finger tab. It is funny, our tab seems to be at the lower end of the elite tab market as far as retail cost now. Fivics new tab is $99. We are probably not charging enough. :wink:

We sell tabs all over the world and the company continues to grow. The idea was to help fund Matt's archery and it is doing just that. New ideas and improvements are always in the works. Barebow tab prototypes are being tested, heavy tabs are also in the works. A palm-plate attachment that fits all of the tabs we have ever sold are also being tested. Matt is currently shooting a ledge prototype that was 3d printed. Universal left and right hand. The Idea is it is more center line with the plate and anchor than into your neck.
















These products may or may not ever make it to market, but is fun trying new things and working with archers to help them shoot better.

They said it couldn't be done. In our opinion, it was well worth the time and money. We may or may not to have defend this patent in the future. Time will tell.


Thank you to all of you that support us. Constructive feedback positive and negative is and always will be welcomed, and encouraged. We truly listen and consider your thoughts on our product. We have made adjustments along the based on what you have asked for. Investing any profit we have made to get it right is never an issue.

Seeing top archers in the world shooting our tab is super exciting. It was just a dumb little idea that won't change the world, but it is a big deal to us. We think it is special.

Anyway. Thank you again for all the support and encouragement over that past five year. And special thanks to the great people at Lancaster Archery that have helped along the way.

Gary and Matt


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## tkaap

That's great news, Gary!

My email tells me mine shipped today, and is heading my way.

Certain archers wearing denims temporarily for the North Region FITA Field better watch out this summer!

-T


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