# new stabilisers



## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

I'd be interested in hearing about this too, would be nice to upgrade from the Axiom longrod I'm using because that machined bit at the end doesn't let me get a proper damper on that will support all the weight I've got.


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## ikweethetniet (Feb 19, 2012)

hwjchan said:


> I'd be interested in hearing about this too, would be nice to upgrade from the Axiom longrod I'm using because that machined bit at the end doesn't let me get a proper damper on that will support all the weight I've got.


I talked to some other shooters about this subject and most of them said I should go for the HMC plus because they know them and the other stabs don't sound familiar to them. however the problem is that I'm very innovative in the setup of my bow (I often try something new which others have not yet discovered). maybe I will go to a archeryshop in about two or three weeks to try the stabs so I'll tell you what my experiences are!


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

Yeah, a lot of people in my club use the HMC plus stabilizers, and if I ever catch a good deal on an HMC setup, I will probably take it, but for now, I'm just going to try to adapt what I have to work. For the most part, there aren't that many major differences between stabilizers besides length, with the exception of multi-rod vs single rod stabilizers. I've heard that people don't like the "mushy" feeling of multi-rods and the less than stellar weight distribution.


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## skunklover (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm shooting the HMC+ rods, and they are great.


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

hwjchan said:


> I'd be interested in hearing about this too, would be nice to upgrade from the Axiom longrod I'm using because that machined bit at the end doesn't let me get a proper damper on that will support all the weight I've got.


Just curious, why do you want a dampener? I've never seen the logic of using an ultra stiff longrod to attach a weight to the bow, then isolating it with a big chunk of rubber. For performance, no dampening in between the bow/weights is the way to go IMO.

The W&W HMC's are among the best out there.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

Personally, I like having a damper for the reduced vibrations, changes the feel of the riser a bit, and plus, the Axiom isn't a particularly stiff longrod to begin with. However, I believe there is a physics related reason to have a damper between longrod and weights having to do with oscillations or some such black magic. If I find the answer DK Lieu posted, I'll attach it to this thread later.


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## skunklover (Aug 4, 2011)

There was a good post about that awhile ago. Also, dampers reduce vibration, which is nice, so you can always load your longrod with weights, then a damper, then another small weight, to have both the stabilization effects and damping.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

Here we go, found it: 



> Stabilizer dampers come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, materials, and stiffness. Almost any of the available products will work, if you understand how dampers function and how to set them up properly. Dampers reduce vibration through their deformation and resultant hysteresis losses in the material. Vibration energy is dissipated in the damper in the form of heat. Thus the first requirement is that the damper be made of the correct material. The material must be formulated to be visco-elastic. This is easily done by adding the proper fillers in the rubber material. Visco-elastic materials recover slowly when they are deformed. If you take a piece of rubber and bend it, highly visco-elastic materials will recover their shape slowly, whereas highly elastic material (like pure silicone) will rebound quickly. Second requirement is that frequency of the damper must be set so that it actually deforms. In technical terms, the frequency of the damper must be less than the frequency of vibration (from the bow) that you are trying to get rid of. If the frequency of the damper is higher than the frequency of the undesirable vibration, the damper merely acts like a solid slug, with little deformation. The frequency can be easily adjusted by adding the proper weights to the end of the damper. The more weight you add, the lower the resultant frequency of the damper. If you add no weights, the frequency of the damper will be very high. We’ve all seen people with un-weighted dampers on their stabilizers. Without the weights, the damper does not deform, and thus performs little vibration reduction. There is, however, a limit to which you should add weights. When you are at full draw, you will notice that there is a frequency at which you make corrections to your aim, i.e. a frequency at which the aperture floats around the gold. Call it the “aim correction frequency”. The aim correction frequency depends on you, your form, the weight of the bow, the moment-of-inertia of the bow, and many other things. The damper frequency must be higher than the aim correction frequency, otherwise the bow and the weight on the damper will not move as a single unit. If the damper frequency is less than the aim correction frequency, the motion of the damper weight will be phase-shifted from the rest of the bow. The result is the damper weight will move in another direction from the rest of the bow during the aiming process, making the bow more difficult to control. I think we’ve all seen log-rods with 4 or 5 ounces of weight attached to their dampers. The weights look like they’re drooping and wobbling all over the place. This is just too much weight on the damper, resulting in a damper frequency that is much too low. As a rule of thumb, just look at the damper weights at full draw. If you see any motion of the weights relative to the stabilizer, there’s too much weight at the end of the damper. The solution is to remove the extra weight, or move it to the other side of the damper. In my own setup, I get the stabilizer end-weight I want and the vibration damping frequency I need by adding weights at the proper place. At the end of my long-rod, I place a one-ounce weight, followed by a Doinker damper, followed by an additional 2.5 ounces of weight.
> 
> DK Lieu


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

ikweethetniet said:


> I'm going to upgrade my current stabiliser set. at the moment I'm using a cartel Balkan long rod (29 inch) and side rods (12 inch), a W&W HMC plus new extender (5 inch) and W&W carbon CX Vbar. my bow is a SF archery super forged riser (25 inch) with Hoyt carbon 550 limbs (68 inch, 30 lbs at 29 inch draw).


I curious, what isn't your current set-up doing that you expect your new set-up to do?

TAO


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Bean Burrito said:


> Just curious, why do you want a dampener? I've never seen the logic of using an ultra stiff longrod to attach a weight to the bow, then isolating it with a big chunk of rubber. For performance, no dampening in between the bow/weights is the way to go IMO.
> .


My home made stabiliser is made of of computer controlled filament wound carbon fiber tube with a 2.5mm thick walls. It is about 36 inches long and has an internal dampener made out of a bass guitar string tied along its length with wool. It has supported 88lbs in the middle of an unsupported span distance of 33 inches with a barely half inch deflection. Tapping the bare tube makes it ring like a bell. It works rather well, but when we made the matching side rods and put them on, the entire assembly acts like a huge tuning fork after the shot. Dampeners on the v bars stopped this instantly. The tubing manufacturers have offered to make me the same tube with higher grade carbon for six times the price which would make it four times as stiff. I politely declined. 
You can have too much of a good thing.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

whiz-Oz said:


> My home made stabiliser is made of of computer controlled filament wound carbon fiber tube with a 2.5mm thick walls. It is about 36 inches long and has an internal dampener made out of a bass guitar string tied along its length with wool. It has supported 88lbs in the middle of an unsupported span distance of 33 inches with a barely half inch deflection. Tapping the bare tube makes it ring like a bell. It works rather well, but when we made the matching side rods and put them on, the entire assembly acts like a huge tuning fork after the shot. Dampeners on the v bars stopped this instantly. The tubing manufacturers have offered to make me the same tube with higher grade carbon for six times the price which would make it four times as stiff. I politely declined.
> You can have too much of a good thing.


Lol.


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

Having only a small amount of weight behind the dampener is a much better idea. Personally I like a snappy shot response and my bow isn't loud anyway, so I have no need to add a bunch of dead weight to my bow to make it quiet.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

When it comes to stabilisers, I think the best idea is the one that the individual prefers. Much like icecream, music or colour. Nothing has ever been proven to be superior for everyone, so it will be open while it's subjective, which is always going to be the case.


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

whiz-Oz said:


> When it comes to stabilisers, I think the best idea is the one that the individual prefers. Much like icecream, music or colour. Nothing has ever been proven to be superior for everyone, so it will be open while it's subjective, which is always going to be the case.


Too right- depends on their ability, strength, bow setup etc. also. Look at Brady Ellison- he shoots a MASSIVE amount of weight on long stabs- probably more than 10oz on every rod. 2 pounds in stabilizer weights alone- give that same bow to someone without the same conditioning or strength as Brady and they will struggle. I doubt there would be many better shooting setups in the world, but that means nothing if it isn't matched to the pilot.


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## ikweethetniet (Feb 19, 2012)

TheAncientOne said:


> I curious, what isn't your current set-up doing that you expect your new set-up to do?
> 
> TAO


I expect less vibration, because the Balkans aren't bad neither very good at that point. I had some Beiters on my bow a few weeks ago and they absorbed much better. 
I have them on my bow for over 4 years now and I'm upgrading my bow piece per piece (eg. I started with winstorm limbs now I use Hoyt carbon 550) and now its the stabs' turn. 
also I'm kinda bored at these stabs (after 4 years of watching to them) and want to try/use something better looking (and I have to say the SF's look very good)


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

ikweethetniet said:


> I expect less vibration, because the Balkans aren't bad neither very good at that point. I had some Beiters on my bow a few weeks ago and they absorbed much better.
> I have them on my bow for over 4 years now and I'm upgrading my bow piece per piece (eg. I started with winstorm limbs now I use Hoyt carbon 550) and now its the stabs' turn.
> also I'm kinda bored at these stabs (after 4 years of watching to them) and want to try/use something better looking (and I have to say the SF's look very good)


Shopping for appearance and vibration reduction are the two single worst reasons to upgrade your stabilisers.


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## ikweethetniet (Feb 19, 2012)

Bean Burrito said:


> Shopping for appearance and vibration reduction are the two single worst reasons to upgrade your stabilisers.


yes I know about the appearance but I don't get the point of the vibration reduction. It's, beside stabilising the bow, their main purpose isn't it?


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

ikweethetniet said:


> yes I know about the appearance but I don't get the point of the vibration reduction. It's, beside stabilising the bow, their main purpose isn't it?


Hee hee! Kind of. Having used the Balkans myself - they're probably introducing the vibration  So replacing them with (insert any other current stabiliser of your choice here) will probably reduce the vibration anyway.

Stabilisers, yes, to stabilise the bow, control torque. So, stiff enough to take the weight you prefer, light enough to allow the weight to act as far away from the bow as you can get it. Not so much to reduce vibration, but you wouldn't want them to be the cause of any.

HMCs are very, very good. I have an older SF longrod which is probably the best I've ever used. And I like the Soma CEX5, but be warned it doesn't have a hole in it to allow extra tightening with any sort of t-bar (never been an issue, but suppose it could be)


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

ikweethetniet said:


> yes I know about the appearance but I don't get the point of the vibration reduction. It's, beside stabilising the bow, their main purpose isn't it?


Personally I'll take performance over a completely smooth shooting bow any day. If vibration bothers you then like has been discussed, a dampener with a small amount of extra weight attached. It isn't the longrods roll to dampen vibration (even though some will- eg. carbon is naturally quite absorbent to sound, and the X7 and ACE longrods have inbuilt dampeners.)- shop for a light, stiff rod, then add dampeners if you want less vibration


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

ikweethetniet said:


> I expect less vibration, because the Balkans aren't bad neither very good at that point. I had some Beiters on my bow a few weeks ago and they absorbed much better.
> I have them on my bow for over 4 years now and I'm upgrading my bow piece per piece (eg. I started with winstorm limbs now I use Hoyt carbon 550) and now its the stabs' turn.
> also I'm kinda bored at these stabs (after 4 years of watching to them) and want to try/use something better looking (and I have to say the SF's look very good)


You can probably get rid of some of the vibration with a $1.50 Beiter washer.

TAO


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

I know I don't like my bow buzzing a lot when I shoot, but it doesn't really affect the shot if it does. But, what excess vibration can do is loosen things on your bow. We all know that if things get lose and we don't catch it in time, the shot will be messed up. For example, I borrowed a set of B-Stingers for a time, and they buzzed like none other. They vibrated so bad that my bottom limb bolt kept backing out on me, no matter what I did to it. My doinkers never had/have this problem.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

Have had a similar experience, only instead it was my sight block vibrating lose on a gold medalist.


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## Greg Bouras (Nov 17, 2006)

ikweethetniet said:


> I'm going to upgrade my current stabiliser set. at the moment I'm using a cartel Balkan long rod (29 inch) and side rods (12 inch), a W&W HMC plus new extender (5 inch) and W&W carbon CX Vbar. my bow is a SF archery super forged riser (25 inch) with Hoyt carbon 550 limbs (68 inch, 30 lbs at 29 inch draw).
> I'm planning to keep the Vbar and Extender in use as the base (or start up) for my new stabiliser setup. I'm doubting between 3 different models:
> - SF archery elite (a carbon blade-like stab which is a lot cheaper (and stiffer) than the first carbon blade), the products of SF are designed (or manufactured in the same factory) by W%W, and I actually like their stuff very much
> - W&W HMC plus
> ...


I started with the Balkan and found they worked OK for vibration dampening but the composite aluminum tube/carbon was very heavy comparatively. When I upgraded I wanted a lighten mass set-up. W&W design of varing OD and wall thickness on a stiff carbon rod made sence to me as an effective way to dampen vibrations across a wider frequency range (eigenvalues) and they were a lighter mass weight.
I have owned and shot both HMC and HMC Plus and cannot tell the difference.
Not knowing the other brands you are considering I cannot comment on them, except to say that a stiff blade type has been reported to be an advantage in the wind. How much. Cannot say.

I have a set of HMC for sale in the FITA Classified. They are red with white graphics. If you think that would work for you,I would not hesitate to extend to you a Try them. If you don't like them I will be happy to refund your money. HMC is good stuff.

As far as a flexible coupling between the bow and rod. Why would anyone want to fight the oscillations of the rod while aiming. Years ago when I tested different stabilizer configurations I found that a Doinker (A bomb better than bellows type) between the end of the rod and a weight had the best dampening responce. Again while aiming having a heavy weight moving around does not make much sence to me. Still more is always better (right) so I use a doinker bellows type at the end of front and side rods with a small weight which is probably unnecessary overkill.


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