# Shift of focus



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I started thinking about this a few days ago after reading the various comments in the disengaged, holding, and subconscious, threads. ky bowhunters thread really nailed it down for the most part except for the one thing that has been a difference of opinions topic before. That is the shot timing part. I don't want to derail his thread so I started this one to discuss my approach as I see it. 

We talk about all these things we see and feel in the shot process, and I think we have mostly all graduated to the belief that you have to become familiar through repetition, and comfortable trusting it. The over-thinking during the shot process is a killer, and especially as noted by ky, defeats you in competition. Here is the way I approach the shot:

It's a simple description but it is what I try to do every time to keep my mind on the right things at the right time. First I aim. It rarely goes to the center and sticks there, so I use the things I've learned to get it to settle in. Most important being patience. When it's there, I shift focus to my release. This is like flipping a switch. I keep an eye on the sight picture but focus on pulling through the shot while my peripheral thoughts are on the sight picture. Is that even a thing? Peripheral thoughts? I don't know but it seems right considering what peripheral sight does for us. That I guess is the trust part.

If the dot starts moving, or drops, I back out of the shot. Sometimes I can salvage it, but most of the time it's let down time. 

This part, the shifting focus from the sight picture to the release, happens in one or two seconds and the shot goes off quickly. I don't trust one end or the other to take care of itself through muscle memory, or subconscious thought. I focus on both ends. Just not at the same time. The only caution I have for doing it this way, is getting in panic mode and thinking you need to rush either one. That will re-introduce punching problems.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

bernie pellerite says it this way:besides aiming just think about touching your shoulder during your shot process your b.t. release will go off easier


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly, backing out of the shot, teaches the shot process, that you refuse to let it run the way it is running. trying to salvage it, only works to reinforce what was going wrong, by sating, " "well, that's ok, i'll just push the sight up where it belongs and it's OK if I have to do that". your shot process learns that it is OK and will do it repeatedly, because it has now learned another, more lenient method of producing what it should produce.
it's the whole idea behind the shot window and let down drills. when the process continually gets it's "alternative methods" canned, by your let down ( that refusal), eventually it has only one method left to run on, that one method is the one that produces the best shot process and because it is the only one it knows,....it always runs on that set of commands the entire process, is based on not letting your shot process "get away" with anything, but running on the one set of commands that produces the right result.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

If you are a robot, you can rely on an automated shot process. If not, you better find a way to cope in crunch time. Bringing nothing to the table other than theory is useless. Those few that actually do it, know this.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You have some things to ponder... The "shifting focus from the sight picture to the release," that's a issue that needs cleaned up. Aiming is what you do and the shot takes care of it's self.... This is the way I was taught, aim, always aim and let the shot happen. You train so that this comes about.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> I started thinking about this a few days ago after reading the various comments in the disengaged, holding, and subconscious, threads. ky bowhunters thread really nailed it down for the most part except for the one thing that has been a difference of opinions topic before. That is the shot timing part. I don't want to derail his thread so I started this one to discuss my approach as I see it.
> 
> We talk about all these things we see and feel in the shot process, and I think we have mostly all graduated to the belief that you have to become familiar through repetition, and comfortable trusting it. The over-thinking during the shot process is a killer, and especially as noted by ky, defeats you in competition. Here is the way I approach the shot:
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100% until that last paragraph which seems to be a contradiction. Please explain?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Like it, hate it, makes no difference too me. I'm not looking for a fix from those of you that can't shoot at my level. I'm just sharing how I shift my focus in the shot.


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## Ky*Bowhunter (Aug 18, 2013)

If something happens thats strong enought to break your concious away from your routine, your shot process is then over... Its time to let down. Reboot. And restart.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> I'm with you 100% until that last paragraph which seems to be a contradiction. Please explain?


Which part you struggling with?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> If something happens thats strong enought to break your concious away from your routine, your shot process is then over... Its time to let down. Reboot. And restart.


This is true. Very true for practice. Perhaps I should have elaborated more. You have about enough time to let down twice in the two minutes you have on the line in competition. Sometimes you have to be able to get it back in there.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> This part, the shifting focus from the sight picture to the release, happens in one or two seconds and the shot goes off quickly. I don't trust one end or the other to take care of itself through muscle memory, or subconscious thought. I focus on both ends. Just not at the same time.



This is a very accurate description I believe of how most successful compound freestyle shooters shoot. Just a couple of days ago I asked a former NFAA 5 Spot Indoor Champion the question; "at full draw what dominates your thought process, the x or the release." His answer, laughing, "Well, I suppose a little of both. That is when I could hold it in the middle." Then he laughed again.

There's a lot of people who will probably disagree with that description I suppose. It's just too straightforward, with no voodoo to sell. :wink:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> You have some things to ponder... The "shifting focus from the sight picture to the release," that's a issue that needs cleaned up. Aiming is what you do and the shot takes care of it's self.... This is the way I was taught, aim, always aim and let the shot happen. You train so that this comes about.





cbrunson said:


> Like it, hate it, makes no difference too me. I'm not looking for a fix from those of you that can't shoot at my level. I'm just sharing how I shift my focus in the shot.


So I messed on the "cleaning up." I meant 1 to 2 seconds can be a long time. Information is pretty instantaneous and I thought you said/meant as much with; "I keep an eye on the sight picture but focus on pulling through the shot while my peripheral thoughts are on the sight picture." The peripheral thoughts was a bit too much or at least confused me. Peripheral vision is as in you are aware of, not really a thought process. You can act on the aware, know it's there and either allow or not allow your focus turn to it...

I think we're getting a too technical. Trying to break down or explain what doesn't need be....Seems there is enough confusion going on as it is....


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

It's not too long at all. Sometimes it can take up to probably four or five seconds. It depends on what the dot is doing. Those of you who firmly believe that you have to have a timed shot window, are never going to get past the holding issues. Most of you have spent enough time to know that it is never going to be the same every time. What do you do when you are on the line in competition, and your not holding well? Do you fire it within your predetermined time window, and live with a miss because your shot window is the important thing? I don't think so. 

You have to be able to make adjustments, and you have to be able to do them on the fly. Practice that way and you can compete that way. Unless your only goal is to be a back yard champion.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, back yard champion and all http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/album.php?albumid=17064&attachmentid=2131085


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> Which part you struggling with?





cbrunson said:


> I started thinking about this a few days ago after reading the various comments in the disengaged, holding, and subconscious, threads. ky bowhunters thread really nailed it down for the most part except for the one thing that has been a difference of opinions topic before. That is the shot timing part. I don't want to derail his thread so I started this one to discuss my approach as I see it.
> 
> We talk about all these things we see and feel in the shot process, and I think we have mostly all graduated to the belief that you have to become familiar through repetition, and comfortable trusting it. The over-thinking during the shot process is a killer, and especially as noted by ky, defeats you in competition. Here is the way I approach the shot:
> 
> ...


In my VERY literal mind I see the two statements (in red) as a contradiction. I know you know what you are trying to say... unfortunately, I don't... While I fully understand the first statement, the second tends to muddy the water for me.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> It's not too long at all. Sometimes it can take up to probably four or five seconds. It depends on what the dot is doing. Those of you who firmly believe that you have to have a timed shot window, are never going to get past the holding issues. Most of you have spent enough time to know that it is never going to be the same every time. What do you do when you are on the line in competition, and your not holding well? Do you fire it within your predetermined time window, and live with a miss because your shot window is the important thing? I don't think so.
> 
> You have to be able to make adjustments, and you have to be able to do them on the fly. Practice that way and you can compete that way. Unless your only goal is to be a back yard champion.





SonnyThomas said:


> Well, back yard champion and all http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/album.php?albumid=17064&attachmentid=2131085


I think I actually can post up some bigger trophies than those  ... but what would that prove? It seems that by your posting the awards you think your method of shooting is all there is and there is no other solution and you've reached the top of the archery circle. I'm sure cbrunson can shoot circles around either one of us on one of his bad days. I'm absolutely amazed how some folks on this forum can be so narrow minded and ridged about their methods when others are doing so much better doing it somewhat differently. If there was only one true way to do this, we could post it up, read it, all agree and then close the book... using it for reference now and then.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay, boys...put 'em back in your pants and get back on topic....sheesh!!


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

I like reading things from passionate people. It's a lot better than:what color string should I get?
Red is cool.
Yep red is cool.
Hey maybe it could be red and silver.
Yea that's cool.
All right thanks for your help guys. I'll get red and silver.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

For the way cbrunson explained his way, the break down, time frame of focus and release, I could very will be doing exactly the same thing, just explaining mine different.... The time frame, I didn't explain it correctly, messed again. Our brain can flip "switches" faster than "greased lightening."

See Lazarus's reply, #12; "I asked a former NFAA 5 Spot Indoor Champion the question; "at full draw what dominates your thought process, the x or the release." His answer, laughing, "Well, I suppose a little of both."


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> In my VERY literal mind I see the two statements (in red) as a contradiction. I know you know what you are trying to say... unfortunately, I don't... While I fully understand the first statement, the second tends to muddy the water for me.


Ok, I see. In the first statement, that's the description of the back end, after the aiming is on. I may not be the best at describing things, however it is as simple as focusing on the aim until it settles in where I want it, then shifting focus back to a smooth, controlled release. The shift is quick, but the release may go instantly, or take a few seconds. In that time, if I see the dot start moving, the release end is backed off, and the focus shifts back to the front end. Many will argue that that is let down time, and more often than not it is, but when the clock says you have 15 seconds left, it is critical that you can get the front end back under control, then shift focus back to the rear again.

Like I said, if you can automate one end or the other and be successful, kudos to you. I won't argue the possibility. I'm just saying it doesn't work that way for me, and the way I've been doing it is my offering to you and anyone else that may be struggling with one concept or another. Take it or leave it.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Iowa shooter said:


> I like reading things from passionate people. It's a lot better than:what color string should I get?
> Red is cool.
> Yep red is cool.
> Hey maybe it could be red and silver.
> ...


You will never be accurate with red and silver. I have never seen a pro make the podium with red and silver. I'm rpretty sure green is a more accurate color.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Thanks, the dots are now connected &#55356;&#57263;


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I enjoyed the posts from cbrunson, I know that I have been talking about the perfect shot or execution a lot lately and sure when I am rattling off tons of them in a row my shooting is really sweet but sooner or later you have to be ready to step up mentally and make some really good decisions to get through a bad shot. sure in a perfect world I just let it down and execute a perfect one on the next shot but at a tournament when the clock is counting down and that bad shot shows up you can't let down. 

For me I like to have a game plan for each one of the situations that could pop up and then execute that specific game plan so that I don't fall into a state of panic where I so something stupid. For me one of the easiest ways to go ahead and shoot a good shot is to go to one of my favorite firing engines "Scissors" it is a very smooth little firing engine that on many occasions has saved my butt. It isn't my best firing method but it isn't a bad one either but what it does is produce a huge amount of hinge rotation very easily and it sends a good arrow to the target, not a perfect execution but a good one. 

Now what this does is give me confidence that anytime the clock is winding down I can easily produce a good shot instead of staying with my other shot and suffering and hoping i hit well. Confidence is everything and for me having a back up plan gives it to me.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I can remember when I was first learning to shoot and even up to a year ago I was having to go to my back up plan on a regular basis during my shooting at home and in big competitions but now I may only have one or two times for every 200 shots where I have a need and most of the time there isn't one.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

To put words to it in the moment, it would be something like this:

Ok, settle, settle, settle...... There it is..... (shift focus to the back). Pull, pull, pull....... Nope, lost it. ....... Back to the front. Settle, settle, settle.....there it is......(shift again). Pull, pull, pull....bang! 

The dot may have moved a little up or down, right or left at the moment it fired, and I saw it happen. I confirm it through the binos. I can usually call it without looking though. I know where it was when it went off.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Here's about the finest example I could come up with that shows what the ticking of that clock sometimes forces one to do in competition. As cbrunson said, it's not always cut and dry what needs to be done. That said, it doesn't always work out either. Watch from 107:50 on. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrr4SO-9pNM


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

cbrunson, I now see where you are coming from. I have shot many of my 60x rounds using the type of shoot approach that you just typed out and I totally understand it and the confidence that comes along with it. My problem is how much I would be focused to pounce on everything that happened during the shot like I could fix the issues and pause and settle back in and then start up for a second or third time and still get lucky and produce a good shot.

I honestly can't imagine ever going back to that kind of shooting and even though I did produce some of my most special days as a shooter I just don't want to do it anymore, it is stressful and I don't like being in that much control of my shot. 

Right now my only focus when I am shooting is producing a perfect execution and this includes aiming and form and shot sequence, so what that means is that when I go into the shooting range tonight I will probably shoot around 80 to 100 arrows if nobody is back there messing with me. Out of those 100 shots or so I will probably produce hopefully 98 or more perfect shot executions where from the time I come to anchor I will settle in on the x and then release the peg and about 4 seconds later my arrow will nail the center of the x. I don't expect to be touching the line of the x more than 3 or 4 times and hopefully won't see any touching the outer edge.

At no time will I be waiting for it to be perfect so I can pull pull pull bang or pause and settle settle settle and then pull pull pull bang.

Now what I am hoping for is that on the one or two shots that aren't executing perfectly that I have the right mental maturity to simply let down and not send that arrow to the target. I have noticed that these arrows are hitting dead center when I choose to ignore the need to let down and continue with the shot but why take the risk.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Like I said, if you can make it automatic, kudos.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> cbrunson, I now see where you are coming from. I have shot many of my 60x rounds using the type of shoot approach that you just typed out and I totally understand it and the confidence that comes along with it. My problem is how much I would be focused to pounce on everything that happened during the shot like I could fix the issues and pause and settle back in and then start up for a second or third time and still get lucky and produce a good shot.
> 
> I honestly can't imagine ever going back to that kind of shooting and even though I did produce some of my most special days as a shooter I just don't want to do it anymore, it is stressful and I don't like being in that much control of my shot.
> 
> ...


Let's put a little pressure on you  post up a picture of tonight's target. Thanks.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> Here's about the finest example I could come up with that shows what the ticking of that clock sometimes forces one to do in competition. As cbrunson said, it's not always cut and dry what needs to be done. That said, it doesn't always work out either. Watch from 107:50 on.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrr4SO-9pNM


Remember those guys ARE the best in the world.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> Remember those guys ARE the best in the world.


Yes, they are. But I found it interesting that he went to plan b after the shot broke down and had to execute due to time running out. I this example it didn't work out but he had to get the shot off regardless.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> Let's put a little pressure on you  post up a picture of tonight's target. Thanks.


Lol. Almost missed that.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

Pete53 said:


> bernie pellerite says it this way:besides aiming just think about touching your shoulder during your shot process your b.t. release will go off easier


This is a great tip. Think I'll add it to my notes and try it out tomorrow.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

cbrunson said:


> It's not too long at all. Sometimes it can take up to probably four or five seconds. It depends on what the dot is doing. Those of you who firmly believe that you have to have a timed shot window, are never going to get past the holding issues. Most of you have spent enough time to know that it is never going to be the same every time. What do you do when you are on the line in competition, and your not holding well? Do you fire it within your predetermined time window, and live with a miss because your shot window is the important thing? I don't think so.
> 
> You have to be able to make adjustments, and you have to be able to do them on the fly. Practice that way and you can compete that way. Unless your only goal is to be a back yard champion.


 the various drills that are designed to develop that "shot window", are drills that get you past having to hold and wait for things to settle on the center. they are used to develop your shot to be aggressive and get on the center without wasting the time that makes your shot process break down.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> the various drills that are designed to develop that "shot window", are drills that get you past having to hold and wait for things to settle on the center. they are used to develop your shot to be aggressive and get on the center without wasting the time that makes your shot process break down.


I keep seeing the same comments from you, but never see how well YOU apply the things you are so insistent are the "correct" way of doing things. I don't doubt for one minute, that that mindset works for some people, but it is definately not the same for everyone. There are many guys out there that can shoot very well, that don't follow the "correct" way of doing things in every aspect of what some guy wrote in a book a long time ago. (Levi video for example)

When we choose to share something that is a little outside the norm, or different than what the everyday conversations entail, it is because it is something we have found that made the difference in our game. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to accept it, or try it yourself, but please don't discourage others from trying things that may help them because you don't like the idea. Especially when you haven't shown that you can even apply the things that you preach.

I don't, and will not shoot within a predetermined time window. The last thing I want to be worried about is whether or not it is going off in time. In my opinion, the least amount of things you can have interfering with your brain during the shot is the best. I have two things. Holding and releasing. 

The drills you speak of are great tools for teaching your brain what needs to be seen without the pressure of the shot. The other things, the things we learn to do when perfect just isn't happening, are what makes the difference between being a practice champion, and placing in tournaments. Some of those little tweaks become part of our normal routine, because we want to practice like we are competing.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

so if I stick a bunch of arrows in a target and take a picture,...that legitimizes my posts ?..... is that all it takes ?.
there are a lot more writings about using "proper back tension" than there are about using "other" methods, aren't there ?.
it seems to me, that a method that is known to work well, will be written about more often than those methods that don't. if all the other methods work equally well, why doesn't anyone write about them. ?.
we learn from methodologies that we either read about or are told about....the methods that work the best, get written about the most often. those "most often written about methods" are what become the standards to teach and learn by and a re most often adopted to by coaching staff at all levels of the respective sport.
as I've told others, that have immaturely tried to call me out on this subject...I don't shoot much any more, due to a stroke I had a few years ago. that doesn't negate the fact that I can still talk about what I know.
your brain can't learn to run under pressure if it doesn't learn a method to process the commands needed . the drills simply provide the tools needed to learn those commands. the better those commands have been learned, the more likely they will be produced,...correctly.... under pressure. that's what "fundamentals" are all about. well defined fundamentals produce the same level of command under pressure as they do when not under pressure.
I know what I'm talking about and can delve as deeply into the issues as you would like me to. what I wonder, is just how deeply you can delve into what you're trying to tell me is wrong about what I say. 
let's see what you really know......


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> I don't, and will not shoot within a predetermined time window. The last thing I want to be worried about is whether or not it is going off in time. In my opinion, the least amount of things you can have interfering with your brain during the shot is the best. I have two things. Holding and releasing.


Shooter there. ^^^

The thing that I notice the most about much of the "written word" here and in other venues is it is written from a very limited perspective. This "shot window" idea is one of those things. First, I believe it is good to train on your "shot window." However, to be very hard and rigid in the timing of the "shot window" as some promote is very narrow minded. cbrunson has pointed out several reasons why already I can't ad to that. 

For me most of the flaws in this idea of the "shot window" having to be perfect is written under the assumption you are shooting in a controlled environment at 20 yards. For most of us that's not reality. You introduce one uncontrollable into the equation, wind, distance, natural lighting and anything else that takes extra thought during the shot process and this "shot window" pretty much goes out the window. 

Here is a perfect example; if I'm practicing a great deal at ninety yards, my "shot window" probably lands in the 6-10 second range depending on the conditions. Now, follow me here, if I've been shooting all morning at 90 and walk up to 20 my "shot window" automatically goes to about 3-5 seconds for several shots. Which is right? Neither is right, and neither is wrong. It just is. Your brain makes (or needs to make) those same adjustments, some conscious, some not with every different uncontrollable which cause the "shot window" to vary. 

Great points by the way cbrunson.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

That's the part you don't get ron. Nobody is calling you out as being wrong. You are insistent that everyone listen to you and backing it with just words. You've even said that Levi doesn't even understand his own shot process. You're just a silly old timer that wants to pound his own chest on everyone else's threads. This constantly rigid approach with fundamentals and "this is the only way" mentality, is droll. And futile. People are not machines. They are not something you can engineer into perfectly timed, efficient tools. 

Understand that proving you wrong in any matter regarding fundamentals is of no interest to me. I don't disagree with basic fundamentals. I do however believe that they only take you so far and then you need to deal with the mental issues. That is where we are at here. If you've never been there, which I don't believe you have, you don't know any more about the reality of it, than what you have read somewhere else. There are people out their doing it, that know how their own brain works, and like to possibly discover some things that other guys have found, that are outside your fundamentals box, and work. I can offer some of those things as well as many others here. I will not argue that their way is wrong and mine is the only correct way, because I know that is not the truth. Their way may work better for them than mine would. That's the whole point of this forum. To share those things. If it were proven that your way was the only way, this forum would have one thread titled, "Read this and you will will know how to do it right." There would be no need for discussion. 

So please, stop chiming in to be the know all expert, correcting people that are just wanting to share their experience with a concept. There is no need to keep regurgitating the same information over and over, that I assume you never truly benefitted from yourself.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

where did I say "levi doesn't understand his own shot process ?.
you just can't stand the fact that i'm as adamant about "traditional back tension", as you are about "finding what works for you",...the difference is that "traditional back tension is a known methodology that will work for everyone, it has in the past, and will for as long as people shoot bows.... and "finding what works for you", is a series of shots in the dark, floundering around until you stumble upon something that works that won't work for everyone no matter how long bows have been shot or will ever be shot. traditional BT has won innumerably more tournaments that finding what works for you ever will.... if it hasn't, it wouldn't still be around and still considered the fundamental standard and still wouldn't be written about, or discussed here or anywhere else, would it ?.
you post what you want to see yourself post, i'll post what I want to see myself post. I don't tell you to stop posting your view, on someone's threads, do I ?. on that same level, you're just a young smart alec, that thinks the new ways are always better. did you happen to see how far Dave Barnesdale got at Vegas in 2014 ?. he shoots traditional back tension.
for every argument you can come with, "against it", I can come up an argument, "for it". by the way, where was everybodies," do it your own way, rotate with your finger tensions "hero", Reo Wilde, when the shoot off was at the line. ?.
if i'm supposed to understand that you don't want, or care to, "prove me wrong", why did you post this sarcastic message ?..... no reason, other than to dismiss what I post, right ?.
do understand your last sentence to call me a "phony", along with your buddy that has been trying to figure out what he's been doing for the 15 or so, years ?., 
what you don't understand, is I never insist anyone "listen to me"....I simply contribute to posts, with what I know, as fact....proven fact. something that "doing what works for you" can't support, because there is no uniform basis for factual detail, in, "doing what works best for you".
in the end, your support of your belief, is no less droll, or futile.
try all you want, you won't make me go away. you see....just as you said,.... this forum is there to have people discuss different ,methods. what you request, is that people stop discussing different methods, isn't it ?.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> by the way, where was everybodies," do it your own way, rotate with your finger tensions "hero", Reo Wilde, when the shoot off was at the line. ?.
> 
> Did you really just say that? He's certainly no stranger to the shoot offs.
> 
> ...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

how does your first response directly pertain to my question. ?
quite wasting my and everyone else's who might want to learn something's time with your sarcastic argument against known and well established facts.
because I don't adhere to the "do what works best for you clan" , doesn't mean I want to argue,...that's just a miss-guided conception that comes with inexperience.
if you're for people trying different things, then why, when some one brings up something different, do you want them to quit posting on your thread ?.. 
and on the same level, if your post here, is not to argue, why are you sarcastically rebutting my posts, and telling me to quit posting on them ?.
I didn't say you have been struggling for 15 years, I said your buddy has.
and you haven't my first question in post # 39.

and as far as "shooting within a predetermined shot window" you do and so does everyone else who works to perfect their shot execution, ..you just don't realize you're doing it. that bit of information comes from people like Reo Wilde, his dad, Bob Ragsdale, Jim Despart, Terry and Michelle Ragsdale and a few other fairly well established and accepted "authorities" in this sport. maybe you would like to go out on the end of the plank and all of tell them, they are wrong, as well.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

You really shouldn't assume my comments are sarcasm. They are not. Quite literal. 

and for the last time, I am not telling you the way you believe is necessarily wrong. Why can't you get that? All I'm saying is that it is not the only way.

You might consider the possibility of someone knowing one or more of those individuals personally before you go name dropping as well.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> Shooter there. ^^^
> 
> The thing that I notice the most about much of the "written word" here and in other venues is it is written from a very limited perspective. This "shot window" idea is one of those things. First, I believe it is good to train on your "shot window." However, to be very hard and rigid in the timing of the "shot window" as some promote is very narrow minded. cbrunson has pointed out several reasons why already I can't ad to that.
> 
> ...


That is actually where I really started studying my holding and releasing. The long distance stuff practicing for Redding last year. You really discover how poorly you control it at 101 yards. I worked on it a lot leading up to it and it helped a bunch. Day two was all the long shots and I shot very well. Only dropped one 11 on everything over 45 yards. Missed one on the elk at 86 yards. Dropped the other five that day on rookie mistakes. I also have found the long game to be more useful than the short game. Finishing the tournament fairly high (1511) was a big confidence booster. Considering my day one catastrophe anyway.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> so if I stick a bunch of arrows in a target and take a picture,...that legitimizes my posts ?..... is that all it takes ?.QUOTE]
> 
> So long as the sticking comes from 20 yards... with a compound bow, yes I'm all for that. Post your target where your mouth is.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

cbrunson said:


> You really shouldn't assume my comments are sarcasm. They are not. Quite literal.
> 
> and for the last time, I am not telling you the way you believe is necessarily wrong. Why can't you get that? All I'm saying is that it is not the only way.
> 
> You might consider the possibility of someone knowing one or more of those individuals personally before you go name dropping as well.


 when did I ever say, my way was the only way ?.
you may know some of them, what does that matter (?), unless you are suggesting that I am making up what I said.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> ron w said:
> 
> 
> > so if I stick a bunch of arrows in a target and take a picture,...that legitimizes my posts ?..... is that all it takes ?.QUOTE]
> ...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, one thing about a picture, it's a picture. It's was going on yesterday or day before in General Discussion; Now do it from farther back than 5 yards and more was given as disbelieving. Hell, I felt sorry for the guy.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

*cbrunson*, I do understand where your coming from. For me, I call it loading my back. As I pre-aim, I shift focus on loading my back through the draw and into the anchor point. Once the target is acquired and aiming begins, I focus on keeping my back loaded through the aiming process and it's automatic. 
The focus I speak of on loading my back is more of an anticipated final step to my shot process as I aim. For me, If I focus too much on my float or do it any other way I begin to freeze off target.


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## MikeR (Apr 2, 2004)

I also use the a focus shift, 1. Draw with attention to desired hand and shoulder position, and place sight in the bulls eye. 2. Shift focus to rear shoulder, elbow, anchor and desired hand staging position on the release. Sense the draw stops against the cables. 3. Shift focus back to aiming and when desired sight picture has stabilized, a small increase in the pressure pulling against the stops produces the smoothest execution. My mind manages this process very well and instills confidence that the process is sound. This may not be for everyone, but works for me.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I see what has been said by multiple "sides" of the argument.
I can see why some might feel the other/s are wrong.
This will stay on topic and without name calling and personal attacks.
Those that can not debate without getting personal, name calling, or just arguing off topic will be subject to creative editing. Continue, and warnings, and vacations will be dealt out.
You have been warned.

That said, back on topic, cbrunson, my question/s to you are: do you practice letting down? Do you only practice going back and forth like a tournament? Or do you do a little of both. Training to let down when you can, but also training to find a way to get off a good shot when under the gun?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Mahly, you mentioned something in your last post that caught my attention, "find a way to get off a good shot when under the gun".

This is something that I found a way to deal with this season by doing some reflecting, two summers ago i had some bad melt downs in 3d and indoor competitions that were just embarrassing. It took me all winter of shooting indoor before this last 3d season for me to finally come to terms with myself and what I needed to do and the decision that I made had nothing to do with training for that last shot like it was different than any other.

1. I decided that I am a good shooter and that I am going to put up some sweet scores and on days when things go my way I can shoot with anyone.

2. I am 45 years old and love shooting but the steak dinner with my buddies talking about girls and hunting and the fun we are having is much more important than the score or victory we had earlier that day.

3. If I am stupid and take the last shot to seriously I am guaranteed to suck, if I relax and enjoy the experience I will send a arrow to the target with a awesome chance of hitting dead on.

4. levi and chance and reo and braden and jesse all shoot so many stinking big shoots that they probably feel like my local shoots, well when I shoot a local shoot I enjoy the day and smoke the course. 

5. I was honest with myself and I am shooting to win, I am not there to just shoot. I am here to stinking win and I have trained and am ready to just shoot my bow the same as I do in my yard or on a local course, I am don't need to do something out of the ordinary or above my shooting level just do the same things I do at home.

Once I came to terms with these thoughts I was able to shoot almost all of my local and national tournaments at the same level as in my back yard, really my only sucky days were back home at a couple local shoots. Every shot that was a big shot at the asa shoots was a awesome experience and I shot good executions and sent a quality arrow to the target and that is all i could ask from myself. I was hoping to get to go to all of the big indoor shoots this year and build on things this winter but things just didn't work out.

So Mahly, for me it was just allowing myself to shoot my bow and enjoy my day doing what I enjoy doing. If we ever get to shoot together I would do the same stinking thing, I don't want you to see me shoot poorly. I want to shoot really good and for me this is a common thing now that I can't shoot in a group at a stinking asa without somebody in the group that has worked with me here on archery talk, they want to see me shoot and tell me what they have been working on and they want to watch my firing enigne and tell everyone in the group about my articles and I have to step up there and shoot perfectly every shot. To me this is the most pressure that I am ever under and even more than a last shot of a tournament because it is more personal, but I followed the same thoughts that I listed out above and every time I shot really well and had a good time getting to know the person in my group. Usually I meet them in the team shoot on the ranges as I walk around and talk to friends and they hear my name but almost every team shoot group I was in had somebody I had worked with.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Padgett, that was probably the most awesome reply to a misunderstood question LOL!
I'm am very glad you posted that! :thumbs_up:darkbeer:
To be clear, by under the gun, I meant limited on time. i.e. a clock ticking, or say in a world cup shoot someone on your side counting down 5...4...3...


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Mahly said:


> That said, back on topic, cbrunson, my question/s to you are: do you practice letting down? Do you only practice going back and forth like a tournament? Or do you do a little of both. Training to let down when you can, but also training to find a way to get off a good shot when under the gun?


Yes but practicing letting down is not used for the confidence in accepting the need to do it anymore. I will use it to take a step back so to speak, for analyzing my sight picture when I’m struggling to get the dot to settle. It may be an alignment issue, bow arm issue, or simply that my arm is stronger or weaker that day, and I need to adjust weights. I also usually shoot a few ends blank bale before starting a game.

This time of year I shoot leagues two nights a week and practice one or two more days, then try to shoot a tournament at least once a month. I could shoot one every weekend within a 200 mile radius here. It is almost pointless for me to practice shooting without added pressure considering the amount of competitive shooting I do. Last night we used a 2 minute timer in leagues. I found that to be more reassuring than operating on an internal clock.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Lets see here, my little brain has been thinking this morning. There was no internet and no archery talk and for the most part everyone was shooting fingers, somebody invented the hinge and except for the lucky few people who shot in the same small group of people they went totally unnoticed and slowly spread through the ranks over decades of use. The coaches in the very beginning learned to instruct people using the one basic method that was happened onto first more than likely by accident and it became the standard that became the one and only way to even consider attempting and anything else was termed "cheating" or "cranking" the hinge. In fact they even found a way for hinges to be presented by the manufactures as a "back tension release" instead of just calling them a hinge.

When you look back it really hasn't been that long ago that hinge shooting began, I was a little kid and many of you guys were young adults so it is totally within our generation that it even got started so why is so hard for so many people to believe that it was perfected within a few years of its existance. To me it is a good idea to go back to your roots and study the history or the beginning of things but to make the decision that back in the day was the only way to do things is just not right and doesn't allow for things to progress onto new levels. 

The generation of coaches from that era are never going to let go of their beliefs because it would make them look bad going back on their basic coaching that they have used to make a living for all these years but as this new era of coaching sinks in its roots and moves on things will change for the better. 

It took the best 3d shooter who ever lived to stand up in the same room with the other best shooters in the world and I am sure some of the coaches to say that none of the best shooters are doing it. I can't imagine being that good at anything like levi is, I will live and die being a guy that enjoys life and gave it his best but to have his gift to be the best in the world and then have the guts to stand up and say what needed to be said is one more thing about levi that I respect.

I have a feeling it is getting harder and harder to invite people to your 500 dollar weekend archery classes when the shooters already know that none of the pro shooters are doing that method.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Padgett said:


> I have a feeling it is getting harder and harder to invite people to your 500 dollar weekend archery classes when the shooters already know that none of the pro shooters are doing that method.


I encountered the notion of "back tension" when I was shooting oly recurve, actually. There, it's taught as the way you draw and hold a bow and has nothing to do with making a release go off in any sense. So I was a little mystified when I returned to compound 15 or so years later and started hearing about "back tension releases". It took me a little research in fact to discover that was just a different name for a "hinge release" and where the term came from, who knows.

I'm still relearning how to shoot period along with learning to use a hinge, so no point in discussing how I'm approaching it right now (it may change), but one method I've already ruled out is any concept of inducing a rotation or bringing the elbow around, etc., by increasing back tension. I also don't reuse the "expansion" of the back muscles that I used in oly recurve, just doesn't work on the compound for me. For me, the back just suspends the drawn bow in place between the pocket on the front end, and the apparatus on the back suspended at the elbow. The execution of the release is a totally separate skill for me (at this time, of course).

As for "do what works for you", I again have to side with ron w - unfortunately, that's a piece of advice that simply conveys no information. I have no objection to it, but it's already trivially true that we have to find what works for us; it neither hurts nor helps us to reiterate that or issue it as advice. At the very best, it just gives you permission to proceed with trial-and-error from a basic kit of starting points, but that's the only value it has that I can see. It doesn't teach you anything and gives you no tools to work with. Instead, what helps me is a practical set of concrete suggestions that I can actually go perform. Then I have a set of actual, real-life tools from which I can make an informed choice. It's like trying on different pairs of shoes to see which pair fits. So instead of "do what works for you", I muchly prefer "well here are a couple approaches you can try: (approach A), (approach B)....(approach n)". Then I can go try them and go from there.

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

unclejane said:


> I encountered the notion of "back tension" when I was shooting oly recurve, actually. There, it's taught as the way you draw and hold a bow and has nothing to do with making a release go off in any sense. So I was a little mystified when I returned to compound 15 or so years later and started hearing about "back tension releases". It took me a little research in fact to discover that was just a different name for a "hinge release" and where the term came from, who knows.
> 
> I'm still relearning how to shoot period along with learning to use a hinge, so no point in discussing how I'm approaching it right now (it may change), but one method I've already ruled out is any concept of inducing a rotation or bringing the elbow around, etc., by increasing back tension. I also don't reuse the "expansion" of the back muscles that I used in oly recurve, just doesn't work on the compound for me. For me, the back just suspends the drawn bow in place between the pocket on the front end, and the apparatus on the back suspended at the elbow. The execution of the release is a totally separate skill for me (at this time, of course).
> 
> ...


...You do realize you've just made a complete reversal in your position on back tension? Not that you should care, but I've removed you from my ignore list.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mahly said:


> Training to let down when you can, but also training to find a way to get off a good shot when under the gun?


How would you get in a position to be "under the gun?"  4 minutes for a 5 shot end. 2 1/2 minutes for Vegas 3 shot end... I thought people were going have heart attacks when the ASA came up their Indoor ASA DAIR event. Everything is timed, even getting to the line, 10 seconds. Two minutes is the longest you have to get off 4 arrows. IF it had reached a National Level event even pulling and scoring arrows is timed. Timers are available so run on a computer, LOUD buzzer and all. 

Shooting time allowed during ASA Indoor Tournaments is two (2) minutes for the first, second and third four (4) arrow ends; one (1) minute and forty (40) seconds for the fourth, fifth and sixth four (4) arrow ends; one (1) minute and twenty (20) seconds for the seventh, eighth and ninth four arrow ends and one (1) minute for the tenth four arrow end after the command to shoot is sounded. And then it's 4 shots at 4 different point zones and only 1 shot allowed per point zone. Low and high 12s (high for upper line, low for lower line), center 10, high 14 and any of the white 8. 

Download the game and you wonder how sheets of paper is going to be used up! I was a little more than perturbed at "the greatest indoor event" ever. So at the club and state level some rules were relaxed, but not written as such.
So I'll try anything once. Guess what? I offered the shop for the first ever Illinois ASA DAIR Qualifier. A ASA Rep was on-hand to run the show. I cleaned the 1 minute round and my bow at the time was a Hoyt ProElite. Like a shoot through riser. I also won my class. The next year I won again. The game didn't catch on and died. What was nice, it could be a team effort as Spotters are allowed. 

Impossible to shoot with a hinge/back tension. I talked my sidekick, DT, into shooting the 2nd Qualifier. DT shot with a hinge and cleaned the 1 minute end with time to spare. There were people watching that refused to shoot the event because they thought it would ruin their hinge/back tension shot procedure.

It's a Delta Target and made up by ???? I guess for any organization to use. The center 11 isn't used for ASA, so NFAA or IBO?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

unclejane said:


> As for "do what works for you", I again have to side with ron w - unfortunately, that's a piece of advice that simply conveys no information. I have no objection to it, but it's already trivially true that we have to find what works for us; it neither hurts nor helps us to reiterate that or issue it as advice. At the very best, it just gives you permission to proceed with trial-and-error from a basic kit of starting points, but that's the only value it has that I can see. It doesn't teach you anything and gives you no tools to work with. Instead, what helps me is a practical set of concrete suggestions that I can actually go perform. Then I have a set of actual, real-life tools from which I can make an informed choice. It's like trying on different pairs of shoes to see which pair fits. So instead of "do what works for you", I muchly prefer "well here are a couple approaches you can try: (approach A), (approach B)....(approach n)". Then I can go try them and go from there.
> 
> LS


Please take no offense, as this seems to be a touchy subject here, but what you describe your skill set as, is basically just a beginner. There’s nothing wrong with that, we all started sometime, but the point of finding what “works for you” is beyond the basics. If you want to get your foot in the game, then yes, you would benefit much more from having a set of guidelines to follow that many others have been successful with. It’s a great starting point. 

What we are talking about with regards to trying different things stems from the other methods stalling out. Once you peak, you can either accept that that is the best you will ever be, because so and so says this is how it’s done, or you can try something new. That is what we are talking about. Finding what works for you is not a shot in the dark from a blank canvas. It is a minor tweak to a basic fundamental that you spend the time behind the string implementing.

If you are at the beginner level I suggest you don’t try things outside the fundamentals box. Get those down first. Then start talking about little things you find that fit you better. That in my opinion is the difference between beginner and advanced target archery.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it does no good to "find a way to get a good shot off". because at the time the shot won't go, when you "find a way" to make it go,....you are forcing the shot, which is exactly what you do not want to do. the whole concept of getting the shot to run by itself, is so that the shot does exactly that,.. every time.... and you don't have to "find a way to make it go" because the internal administration of the shot is self motivated and self generated.
the better it is self motivating and self generating...."internally".... the less likely you will have to be faced with "finding a way to make the shot go".....
I don't know,.... maybe that simple principle is just too hard for some people to grasp,..... but it's the entire substance of why someone works to get the shot to run by itself.
you don't have to be "a machine" to do that....you just have to know how to reset the process,......let down, re-address the target and initiate a new shot execution.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

There are those who "do", and those who "talk".


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I can't stress enough that in all reality all of the methods are so very close once you become proficient with each of them, for me shooting a 60x round isn't my standard that allows me to justify picking a method. I can and have shot 60x rounds with at least 4 different menthods of firing a hinge or thumb trigger and for me a 60x isn't good enough, being able to execute hundreds of shots in a row is the bench mark that I have been approaching as my goal and this is where many of my firing methods run into trouble. Over time two of my firing methods have stood out from the rest and the confidence that I have in them is just way higher than with the others which to me is key to becoming a really strong shooter.


Pure back tension is one of the methods that I am proficient at and enjoy shooting with during my training sessions, I use pure back tensiong as a training tool rather than a competition method because it has proven over and over to have a couple issues that are always present, With pure back tension you are not pulling straight back behind the arrow during the shot and depening on how much squeeze you give your back muscles dictates how far the elbow is rotated off line with the arrow at a angle. To me to be a really good pure back tension shooter your attention to detail must be way more perfect expecially in the grip on the release and your rear arm form because any subtle differences in your form are going to force you to produce more squeeze in the muscles which has to over rotate the rear elbow to take up the slack that your poor form created and now you end up pulling the shot off to the side of the x. The second issue with pure back tension to me is the fact that you do have to be more perfect about form and grip which in effect forces your amount of over all percieved movement within your shot to be very small in size and to me as a day goes along and I get fatigued this perfect amount of back muscle squeeze gets to be very hard to duplicate, especially on a 3d course where the footing totally screws with your legs being uneven and your having to lean forward. At this point the entire core of your body is doing a lot of work to just stand in the correct position and the back muscles are inside the core of your body and now you need to ask them to be as perfect as when you are on a indoor flat surface. It isn't going to work out well.

So, I use pure back tension as a training method and I do see some positive lessons to be learned from it.

1. The focus that it gives on your rhomboids is just amazing and something everyone could benefit from, when you are absolutely not doing anything with your hand either relaxing or squeezing and you only squeeze the rhomboids and you are shooting really well this is when you learn the lesson of how important the back muscles are to a shot. I use this particular shooting to isolate my back muscles and give 100% attention to them which to me once I go back to shooting with my other methods I can activate those muscles and use them because I have learned how to do so.

2. By producing elbow rotation with your back tension you can also distinguish between pulling straight back into the wall and rotating the elbow at a poor angle that is not straight back. To me this is one of the biggest reasons that I don't shoot with pure back tension, I take pride in the fact that many people that shoot 3d with me notice that I simply don't miss left or right all weekend long when shooting at 1.25 inch asa 12 rings. I am usually within the 12 ring every shot for the entire weekend and to me this means that I am directly behind the arrow with my execution of the shot 100% of the time, as I apply the gas pedal to my shot my engine is pulling straight back into the wall for the entire duration of the shot so there is no reason to get pulled off.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Ronw's last post #59 is a really good one, I just saw it.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> ...You do realize you've just made a complete reversal in your position on back tension?


That is correct. I did try the "rotation by back tension" method and found that it didn't work. I'm now working with something else.


> Not that you should care, but I've removed you from my ignore list.


Correct, I don't care either way.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

> but the point of finding what “works for you” is beyond the basics.


Well, no, my point is "find what works for you" and "here are the basics" are two fundamentally different approaches to teaching and learning a skill. The difference I think is already obvious and has been covered here at length. I'm making no other claims.


> If you are at the beginner level I suggest you don’t try things outside the fundamentals box. Get those down first. Then start talking about little things you find that fit you better. That in my opinion is the difference between beginner and advanced target archery.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

LS


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Probably a half year ago in the summer I think a person was talking about it being impossible for the human body to pull straight back into the wall, I can't remember who it was but he was trying to discount those of us who claimed to be doing it. I went home that evening and was shooting and thinking about it and after a couple days I think I had done enough messing around with it that I actually became a better shooter. Why?

Because I studied my arm from the elbow up to my hand basically the forearm, I thought and thought about it and tried to come up with something that made sense to me and finally it came to me. My elbow is a hinge and if I allow my bicep and tricep muscles to remain neutral and relaxed not either one of them contracting along with the forearm muscles then my forearm is going to simply be pulled in the exact same line as the arrow because the bow is pulling against my elbow in that perfect straight force.

Just now in my chair here at work I grabbed my other hand and I pulled back with my release arm in a straight line just like normal and it felt great, then I tried to pull straight back but this time I contracted my bicep as I pulled back and instantly my forearm wants to pull at a angle because one of the two muscles the bicep and the tricep was contracted so now the forearm isn't just neutral it is being pulled off line by the contracted bicep.

By the way this is why so many people have weird draw cycles where they draw down by their peck muscle really low, These guys contract their bicep to try and help their back muscles draw the bow and it creates the weird draw cycle.

If you have never slowed down and practiced drawing the bow without contracting the bicep mucsle this really could be a drill you need to do and learn some lessons, also getting back to the wall and then simply pulling into the wall with a bicep contraction and then without a contraction can teach you a lot about pulling straight into the wall. the moment you isolate the finer points of pulling into the wall perfectly straight then you can move on to learning how to fire the release while doing this.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Wow, just sitting here in my chair and holding my other hand and pulling into the wall in a straight line I am feeling something that I have been feeling on the shooting line lately. my rear arm shaking very violently for a while during my warm ups, for a few weeks I have been noticing that I am shooting good during warm ups but my rear arm would be shaking and after 15 or so shots it goes away usually after I relax and just settle in. Well just sitting here when I pull into the wall with the back muscles my rear arm is perfectly still and the moment I slightly tense up my bicep my arm start shaking exactly the same as when I am warming up.

I love it when these discussions help me.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Back on topic.

Last night, I had great results using “my” methods of focusing. It was Vegas league night so it was obviously scored. The line was almost full, so the close encounters element was there along with the 2 minute clock. My handicap is a half shaft ten and I only missed three total for the night. One was a nine in the third end of the first game. I did shoot another nine on the second practice end of the second game, but that doesn’t go against the game. Ended up with a 299-27x first game, and 300-26x on the second game. Very pleased with my shooting right now.

One thing I paid close attention to was the amount of time (consciously) it takes me to get settled in to the center and hold. It takes longer with the lower draw weight I’m shooting now, but when it settles in, it holds better longer, so it’s a fair trade in my book. That little bit more patience I’ve acquired has bought me 5 to 6 more Xs average and the 300s are stacking up.

One little off topic rant. The nine on the first game was the same mistake I often make. I let something interfere with my focus and let it go. What I did after that is one thing that I have struggled with but conquered last night. I blew it off and shot straight Xs to finish out the game. The miss was on #2 spot on the third end.


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