# Fantasy Based Archery The Dawn Of A New Age :)



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

On the tail winds of many fantasy based movies and television shows comes a whole new generation of archers anxious to pick up bow and arrow and get after it 

Like every generation of archers all are inspired by something and or someone 

For many of us that have been into archery for decades we read and watched information on Pope ,Young , Hill , Bear etc 

They were all great in their own way 

Sure their flaw was flawed at times but in general they were great archers 

Today this new generation of archers is being inspired by different archers 

These are the Katinisas (Hunger Games) , Elves and Orcs and shows like the Walking Dead where are hero uses the worse possible Zombie Apocolypse Weapon I can imagine a crossbow 

When Lars Video went viral many that have been in this for a wile smiled and said neat video minus the stupid commentary and outrageous claims we were amused 

But many many young archers coming from a fantasy based interest ate it up. 

Now you have predominately young archers just getting started do what they do best which is play on the Internet on many forums and making videos etc 

We have many new archers on forums arguing with World Champions and guys that have been killing critters with arrows for decades 

The question really is how do we deal with it ?

Many have tried to explain that running around half drawing 25 pound bows and lobbing arrows at close targets II's really rather useless in any type of hinting of defensive situation ............... But they still argue  

Many before this fantasy based topic became so popular argued how the floppy hat plaid snap shooting archers were damaging archery so what do Ya all think of what the elves are doing  

I for one welcome them 

I will happily suggest if their interest is quickly shooting low powered bows into close targets and or archery tag that is fine .... Welcome to a form of archery 

But my real hope is to show them the kind of modern day archers they should be emulating 

Guys like Dwayne and Demmer and Ben to name a few 

If they want to see superhuman shooting go watch these guys 

In the bowhunting world there are many old time greats and some new ones also 

Check out Paul Schafers archery acomplishments 










It's not an Orc or a Zombie but it's real


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## Knygathin (Feb 10, 2015)

:hat:


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

another good post JP, always good to read your blogs haha


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

I too welcome the elves. If they get their foot in the door some will enter. Think the prepper movement could swell our ranks also , if they only had the time . Its a shame not enough interest to support video games of say Howard Hill in Africa . That'd be a visual treat.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Yup…I had a hard time not joining in the latest commentary…doesn’t mean I don’t have a couple of pages all typed up and waiting for me to send.

The video happens to be timed right for an audience that is presently being tickled with archery fantasy (among other things). Can’t really blame the audience though…Robin Hood was a fantasy…and if there were any Native American hunting videos…they got past me.

Anyhow...it was the statements being offered that were argumentative…rather than showing any kindness towards peers…and the unfortunate part of that is that the same rub has the potential to taint those who could represent the future.

Best we can do though is try to keep our own acts clean and behave reasonably. This is the World Wide Web…impressionable people could be watching us too. Rick.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Wow, JP, I was thinking the same thing! I was wondering if not in the too distant future, we would see the two main distinctive forums of target/hunter replaced by target/role-play. Of course, SCA and Ren-Faire folks have been involved in archery for a long, long, time. I would say, though, that from all of them I have shot with and been around, the love of archery for their craft is there, but the technical aspects we associate with hunting and competition seem to be at a lower level of concern. Not that they can't be more analytical about archery, it's just not needed for the venue.

This LARP and Lars stuff just has more of an air of being just one step above video gaming.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> another good post JP, always good to read your blogs haha


Thanks Ghost


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## jshperdue (Feb 1, 2010)

Great post you always have great insight. I really like reading the stories of Paul Schafer.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sanford ,Rick and Red 

They are here to stay that is for sure 

I welcome them and in time many will progress like I guess we all did 

For those that don't I guess they will just stay in the dark ages albeit a fantasy dark ages


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

jshperdue said:


> Great post you always have great insight. I really like reading the stories of Paul Schafer.


Thanks Josh 

I apreciate the kind words


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Archery means different things to different people. The fast shooting, role playing style is just that, another way to enjoy archery. 

Personally I think a bow is basically worthless as a close range defensive weapon, but I don't think many are seriously looking at it that way. They're having fun and I'm all for that, even if my archery interests lie elsewhere.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Great thread JP.

My wife is an elf, and she can shoot for real. Sometimes she just does it while dressed up...









We even got one of our cosplay-oriented friends into serious shooting.

There is hope.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

J-Never bad mouth the walking dead again! Lol  j/k brotha. You guys just calm down over there.


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## Valachi (Jul 17, 2014)

*Hope This Was A Fantasy Everytime I Hear Banjoes*


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Oh my. I see elves like Damon Howatt recurves...


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Great thread JP.
> 
> My wife is an elf, and she can shoot for real. Sometimes she just does it while dressed up...
> 
> ...


Awesome stuff Barney


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

I am glad that everyone is welcome. But killing water buffalo, or Cape buffalo is not of any interest to many people either, real or not. I don't think you have to be seriously interested in killing anything to appreciate archery. For a close range defensive weapon I have the Glock, so generally I don't think anyone is seriously interested in bows for that either. And only a few people compete in anything. Take golf for instance. Millions of golfers, a few hundred of competitors. People do it for the challenge, the companionship, the enjoyment of being out in the air, in the sun.

Archery is much like a video game. It has no real role in life. Unless you are shooting zombies I guess. There are better ways of killing things. There are better ways of defending yourself. But like golf it has its heros, real, past or imaginary, and ranks high on the enjoyment level, as long as we don't all have to do it the same. We can find our own level of enjoyment.

Years ago, I was heavily involved in black powder muzzle loading. I dressed in leathers, went to shoots, competed and lost, and generally had a good time. That is the point. Enjoying the sport in the way that you want without enduring endless criticism.

By the way, Barnyslayers wife looks pretty good. I am glad I am not an Orc.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Nekekal said:


> I am glad that everyone is welcome. But killing water buffalo, or Cape buffalo is not of any interest to many people either, real or not. I don't think you have to be seriously interested in killing anything to appreciate archery. For a close range defensive weapon I have the Glock, so generally I don't think anyone is seriously interested in bows for that either. And only a few people compete in anything. Take golf for instance. Millions of golfers, a few hundred of competitors. People do it for the challenge, the companionship, the enjoyment of being out in the air, in the sun.
> 
> Archery is much like a video game. It has no real role in life. Unless you are shooting zombies I guess. There are better ways of killing things. There are better ways of defending yourself. But like golf it has its heros, real, past or imaginary, and ranks high on the enjoyment level, as long as we don't all have to do it the same. We can find our own level of enjoyment.
> 
> ...


I never said that anyone had to compete of kill anything 

What I did say is that when you have a whole new group of archers asking about the lethality of archery equipement and its effectiveness as such I find it amusing how they can and will argue with life long hunters and high level archers about how a bow works in that respect and how we as archers should address such 

Kinda simple

Nothing wrong with make believe unless you want to argue it isn't


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Valachi said:


>


Great archery movie


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

Y


JParanee said:


> I never said that anyone had to compete of kill anything
> 
> What I did say is that when you have a whole new group of archers asking about the lethality of archery equipement and its effectiveness as such I find it amusing how they can and will argue with life long hunters and high level archers about how a bow works in that respect and how we as archers should address such
> 
> ...


I don't think I was arguing. Your post ended with a picture of a dead animal and something about it being real, as if that was better than fantasy, and something about emulating highly skilled target competitors, as though that was better than fictitious ones. 

I guess I was not feeling the welcome as much as I would have had you ended a paragraph earlier, but I certainly don't want to argue about it and want to apologize if I said anything offensive.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Nekekal said:


> Y
> 
> I don't think I was arguing. Your post ended with a picture of a dead animal and something about it being real, as if that was better than fantasy, and something about emulating highly skilled target competitors, as though that was better than fictitious ones.
> 
> I guess I was not feeling the welcome as much as I would have had you ended a paragraph earlier, but I certainly don't want to argue about it and want to apologize if I said anything offensive.


No please do not take it that way 

Most all of the fantasy aspect of what we are seeing is slaying of something 

So IMHo if Ya wanna know the truth of what it takes to kill something maybe asking people that are acurate and kill things with said weapon would be a prudent way to go  

Many when making statements about half drawing bows to quickly hit their target etc seem to forget or not even be aware of proper tuning etc 

We even had a fellow speak of the knock down power of an arrow awhile back 

So my point and real message here is that iany and all ways of archery should be welcome But if it were me wanting to know what it takes to use a bow as a lethal weapon I would ask the likes of Paul Schafer not Legolis 

If it were I that wanted to know how to hit something I would be asking Dwayne, Ben or Demmer not Katnis (did I spell that right)  

No argument here 

I apologise if it came off that way


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

jakeemt said:


> J-Never bad mouth the walking dead again! Lol  j/k brotha. You guys just calm down over there.


I never miss an episode 

My kids and I really like it 

But this season has been a bit slow


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

My father and his hunting buds were all about Howard Hill and then Fred Bear and outside of the B&W movie Robinhood on our B&W console TV set?...I really can't recall much about any "Fantasy Based Archery Hero's"...as a child growing up in early 60's Jersey though I can tell you I never missed and episode of this...especially this "Lead In" because each and everytime I watched Skipper drive that arrow dead center of that tree?...it seemed I couldn't wait for the episode to be over so I could grab my green/white streaked solid glass with black molded on grip Bear kiddy bow and go fling some....right after watching this...


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

From Native American Bows by T.M. Hamilton 
Page 109
Sharp-horn-bull was a famous archer, who, with four arrows in his mouth and one in the bow, could shoot the five before the first hit the ground . 
Letter dated 18 Sept. 1956 by Judge Zahn

I can't prove Robin HOOD was real no more than anyone else can prove he was fantasy.

Snap shooting is real and deadly . It takes training . I don't understand half drawing when I can hit my anchor in another half second .

Archery is the best all exercise that I know . Great mental exercise . Physically it is as challenging as you want it to be. Low impact or rovers in stripper hills. Your choice . You can carry it with You throughout life. Obsolete ? Blasphemy ! Lest we forget , real or not, Robin Hood was a survival poacher.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JParanee said:


> So my point and real message here is that iany and all ways of archery should be welcome But if it were me wanting to know what it takes to use a bow as a lethal weapon I would ask the likes of Paul Schafer not Legolis


I think... you really are blowing things out of proportion. I understand the "why" of this thread but how the message is being delivered is a bit condescending... which imo isn't the best olive branch approach.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grapplemonkey said:


> I think... you really are blowing things out of proportion. I understand the "why" of this thread but how the message is being delivered is a bit condescending... which imo isn't the best olive branch approach.


You of course are entilted to your opinion and I respect it


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

I can get sooooooo into those Bear arrows that Voight was using...but that's my little secret...ISN'T IT!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rickstix said:


> I can get sooooooo into those Bear arrows that Voight was using...but that's my little secret...ISN'T IT!


I just saw that Burt Reynolds had an auction and some of the archery stuff vp from Deliverance was auctioned off 

I would have loved to get a piece


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

This post reminds me when I was first debating about starting archery a year ago. I hardly knew what a recurve was at the time. I Googled literally 100 of YouTube videos. Like a lot of new people, I was drawn into the more "entertainment" side of archery. Watching movies like LoTRs and Avatar or YT videos of instinctive, fast shooting. Wasn't until I bought my first Sage recurve that I knew I wanted to learn to be more accurate. After looking at more videos, I found Moebows YT channel and his informative videos. Learned what I could, but still had questions. I made an account here on AT and started asking away. Huge thanks to all the people that answered all my questions, I'm sure they were asked a hundred times before. 

My point is like what JP said. There are a lot of entertaining videos on the web of archery. But imho, if you want to learn to shoot/hunt. There are a lot of good names you should be typing into your search bar. No disrespect to LARS or the like. But I don't see his method of shooting/aiming being practical for any hunting situation. As for a form of defense, I really think he would just piss off a bunch of zombies, but would look awesome doing it! This is just my opinion, I see guys like LARS as entertainment. Someone that took the time to practice shooting a certain way to make it entertaining for others to watch. Archery is still archery, arrows flying in the air and hits a target. It all depends on what your after in your own archery goals. For me, I wanted to learn to hunt with a bow. I did not have anyone I wanted to entertain. So I followed people who hunted and shot accurately, learned about form, proper tuning, and hardware selection. 

and yes, Another fan of The Walking Dead here! Next best thing to the NFL season


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

JParanee said:


> I never miss an episode
> 
> My kids and I really like it
> 
> But this season has been a bit slow


Ikr lol that's the part my lady loves though. When the all get together and talk about their feelings. I believe it's called character development. I just want them to waste some zombies.mi mean come on.  we never miss an episode either.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't really care why somebody gets started in archery. My thoughts here have more to do with the role of TV and movies in society. It seems to me that (many years ago) we didn't have as much trouble discerning between fantast entertainment and reality.

I didn't have video games or computers. There was one TV in the home and it was only on at select times of the day. Our "fantasy" shooting took place with sling shots, spears, bb guns or whatever as we ran the woods and fields building tree forts, hunting frogs and snakes and fighting imaginary enemies. We even brought home some small game like rabbits and squirrels in the process.

I got into the shooting sports because my father started taking me hunting and fishing about the time I got out of diapers. I think I was about 11 years old when I got my first shotgun. I watched my share of westerns and other shoot-em-ups but it as contrasted with my experience toting a real shotgun after game on the weekends.

My father never did much deer hunting and he was never into archery. I started in archery in my 20's when I decided to hunt deer in my home state...when I started seeing deer around.

I saw Fred Bear on TV when I was a kid but I didn't know the names Howard Hill, Pope or Young until after I started bow hunting and began reading the archery magazines.

I guess where I'm going with this is that, when I was a kid, we were out actually "doing". It seems like a lot of kids today grow up in front of the TV or computer and never actually do much of anything.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I think we see what I'm trying to describe in other areas too. There's a ball field right down the street from my house but there are never any kids playing ball unless there's some kind of "organized" game going on. When I was a kid, we played some kind of ball almost every day, although, very few of us ever played on any sort of organized team. We rarely got to use the ball field because it was always taken. Older kids (or whoever) would take it over and we didn't get to use it. There were times we actually fought over access. You could get in a good fight and a ball game in the same afternoon. LOL

I'll tell you something else and I hope this doesn't rub anybody the wrong way. Thinking back through my school years (grade school up through high school), there were no "fat" kids. The few that we called "fat" weren't even close by today's standards.

I remember when my son enlisted in the Marine Corps. They try to get all these kids in this "pre-boot" (or whatever they call it) well in advance of their active duty date. The recruiter told me that too many of the kids right off the street would have no hope of getting through it. They're too fat and weak. It takes a year to get them ready for the 12 week training that gets them ready. LOL, I don't think that was the case years ago.

I sit in front of the computer quite a bit these days but I'm 55 years old and I don't much like the cold anymore...that and I spend enough time out in it during the work week. When I was 12, I would have been out in this frigid weather chasing rabbits or shoveling the snow off a pond to get a hockey game going.

I know things keep changing but I don't see much that's changing for the better.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I don't really care why people get into archery. I have some very close friends who have transitioned from movie/fantasy archery to shooting 3D with us. He even came to ETAR.

That said, I don't particularly care for some "interpretations" of facts, as Joe alluded to. Misinformation is misinformation, not "different strokes for different folks". This isn't a subtle difference or a matter of opinion. If you're looking to hit the mark with a bow or take a life with an arrow, there are some time tested ways to do so, and watching TV or Youtube ain't it.

MGF, you make a fair point about how different things are. Growing up my family never had much so my brother and I grew up running through the woods. We felt were we missing out when the other kids had so much, but even by the end of high school it was clear how little that all meant. Now, I'm raising my fiancée's little boy and between her ex's family and others' "commentary" about how to parent, it's clear the concept of what a child "needs" is quite different. He was given expensive video games and interactive toys before he could even form full sentences, and if some had their way he'd be sitting in front of a tv all day eating chips and cookies. Every child is a perfect little snowflake that doesn't have to make an effort to be perfect at anything. Working and effort are foreign concepts, and that is presen in a lot of my own peers. People who are legal adults and have been for years that can't maintain a steady job, finish any sort of additional schooling, or even move out of their parents house. No wonder there are so many "experts" out there...


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

The way I see it, when I was a youngster, watching Fred Bear shoot a grizzly bear, a polar bear, a stingray or an elephant, was as much a "fantasy" for me as what the kids are seeing in The Hunger Games. Different times, different generations, different fantasies.

What it did do, was encourage an entire generation(s) to pick up a bow an arrow and at least try to emulate him. Some of us stuck with it, and as we matured, what we actually ended up using our bows and arrows for morphed from fantasy to reality. Some never hunted an elephant, but hunted Olympic targets instead. 

No matter how "fantastic," anything that encourages a child to pick up a bow and arrow is a good thing. For some it will click and for other's it won't. Just like back then.

Here is a picture that my Father took of my Mother, my sister, my two brothers and I learning to shoot at a Bear Archery camp on the grounds of Bear Archery in Grayling Michigan.









I have not put the bow down since that day almost 50 years ago. I don't think my two brothers or sister ever picked one up again.

For some it "clicks" and for some it doesn't. 

KPC


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I used to think that we didn't have "much" when I was a kid but we always had what we needed and then some. We didn't have an endless supply of soda pop or whatever but my mother cooked 3 good meals/day and I had the "normal" kid necessities...a bike, bat, ball and so on. My parents busted their backsides to get us out of a city apartment and into a little house in the "suburbs"...where I had woods and fields to run. BTW, my parents are still in the same house.

I think a big part of it was that we didn't have all the canned entertainment. 

I remember a bunch of my buddies having mini bikes and dirt bikes. I used to ride theirs and wanted one of my own real bad. My father told me to go buy one. I started with a paper rout and doctored a birth certificate when I was 15 to get a job at McDonalds. I still don't like laws that prevent a kid who wants money from working. As it turned out, by the time I had a little money, I was wanting a car. LOL I got the car and the girls but I never did get the dirt bike. 

I guess the point is that having to put some fairly long term planning and work into getting something was just part of the process. During those years, I learned how to work. I learned that you get paid for what you do and not for what you want or what you think you "deserve".

I still can't have anything or everything but I know that I can have anything that I'm willing to put in the work for and I'm happy enough with that. The only thing that makes me feel cheated is that there are so many who think they should get something for nothing and I get the bill. LOL


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## MikeG (May 17, 2014)

MGF, we're from the same age/generation. Minus the shooting part, I grew up the same way as you did. I spent way more time outside than in no matter what the weather was like. Pick-up street hockey, baseball, and football ran 3-4 month cycles in addition to organized sports. And if we weren't playing a game then we were goofing around in the woods. I did that until I graduated from high school. When I was 18 I entered the Air Force 5'8" 150 lbs and left basic training a fat pig at 160 lbs (AF physical training was a joke back then). The funny thing is my grandfather was a farmer most of his life, and he lectured me all the time about wasting my time playing sports and not doing any serious work. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. 

Archery is a perfect activity for the internet generation. It's easy to grasp the basics. It doesn't have to be nearly as time consuming as other physical activities. It's easy to find equipment to fit even fat, out of shape couch potatoes. If it takes an elf, Lars Andersen, or Oliver Queen to get people interested in archery, that's fine. And if they stick with it for any length of time, they'll be able to sort out fact from fantasy and actual history from tall tales. 

I watched the Andersen video for the first time just before I posted this. It looked like an archery version of the Harlem Globetrotters.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I thank God for the Fantasies as I feel it's those very dreams that attract folks to the activity I like so much which in turn keeps breathing new life into what is a passion for many of us here which in turn also supports the industries that support us and keeps a number of bowyers and related gear manufacturers in business and if those fantasies get more of our youth setting down their gaming controls, tablets and Iphones to tug on dad's shirt tails and say the words...

*"I WANT A BOW!"* 

Then I say God bless those fantasies! 

To me?..it's when the well seated and established ones become critical and judgmental of the legions of new would-be archers that get sent our way via Fantasy Flicks that things take a turn for the worst and those folks made to feel < head home to find other things to do.

Folks come in many shapes, forms and personalities...some are happy go lucky socialites while others are loner types...some have the where-with-all to fly 1/2 way around the world and hunt game that fights back or engage in international competition while others might be hard pressed to come up with fees and gas money to attend the local shoot...does this make them any less of a person or lover of archery? 

Then unfortunately?...there's many who seem to have their priorities a bit deranged...mine run like this...

1. God
2. Family
3. Job
4. Friends & Fellowship

and then...

5. Everything else (and this is where my archery leads the pack)

It actually stings my soul when I hear folks identify themselves as..."An Archer Is Who I Am"...because what that tells me is they are seeking acceptance amidst a particular and very segmented peer group...and are looking to achieve "Status" amidst their peers and to me?...that's a rather spiritually weak way of addressing life in general.

Lest we remember?...the word "Fantasy" is derived from the word "Fan"...which is abbreviated slang for the word..."FANATIC"...which is a mental condition whereby a thing or activity that is of this world has drawn the exclusive attention of the afflicted away from the things in life that are of true importance and matter most....ever notice how many Traditional Bowmen will have "Scriptural Verses" inscribed on their bows?...this isn't by accident.

But if those "Fantasy Flicks" and the legions of new archers they inspire are doing good works in leading our younger folks towards a better direction in life?...and closer too those Traditional Bowmen that have Scripture on their bows?....That's fine by me.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I guess a little bit of fantasy and dreams fueled all of our archery endeavors .........I guess we just didn't have the Internet to argue our fantasys on 

This thread was never about any negative sentiments about fantasy based archery 

It was about how do we deal with them arguing that the fantasy is real


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## Homey88 (Dec 10, 2013)

Great post joe! Very insightful!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MikeG said:


> MGF, we're from the same age/generation. Minus the shooting part, I grew up the same way as you did. I spent way more time outside than in no matter what the weather was like. Pick-up street hockey, baseball, and football ran 3-4 month cycles in addition to organized sports. And if we weren't playing a game then we were goofing around in the woods. I did that until I graduated from high school. When I was 18 I entered the Air Force 5'8" 150 lbs and left basic training a fat pig at 160 lbs (AF physical training was a joke back then). The funny thing is my grandfather was a farmer most of his life, and he lectured me all the time about wasting my time playing sports and not doing any serious work. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.
> 
> Archery is a perfect activity for the internet generation. It's easy to grasp the basics. It doesn't have to be nearly as time consuming as other physical activities. It's easy to find equipment to fit even fat, out of shape couch potatoes. If it takes an elf, Lars Andersen, or Oliver Queen to get people interested in archery, that's fine. And if they stick with it for any length of time, they'll be able to sort out fact from fantasy and actual history from tall tales.
> 
> I watched the Andersen video for the first time just before I posted this. It looked like an archery version of the Harlem Globetrotters.


I agree That archery is a great activity for the "internet generation". 

It's funny what you say about your grandfather. My grandfather was an auto mechanic most of the time but, over the years, worked various sorts of "fix-it" and maintenance" jobs. He would spend money on tools, food, or the house. Anything else was a waste. Consider that he started a family during the depression.

He retired to Mountain Home Arkansas...Norfork and Bull Shoals reservoirs...and we had trouble getting him out in the boat fishing. To him it was just a waste of time and money. He only ever conceded because it was his son and grandson trying to drag him out there and "family" was the other thing that he was "all about".

I spent a lot of time with him over the years (including working in his garage as a kid) and I think that when you live so long in that "starvation/survival mode", you never completely shake it.

Today, folks just go down to some government office (or just file a tax return) and get a lot of stuff for free. It wasn't always that way and I don't think it really does anybody any favors.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> I guess a little bit of fantasy and dreams fueled all of our archery endeavors .........I guess we just didn't have the Internet to argue our fantasys on
> 
> This thread was never about any negative sentiments about fantasy based archery
> 
> It was about how do we deal with them arguing that the fantasy is real


You're a sweet guy Joe but I don't feel obligated to deal with them at all. Let them go their own way and do what they think is best.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

It is the dawn of a new age. In more ways than archery too. Some of the observations I've made are pretty similar to the other posters. I don't see kids playing anymore. I see organized "sports" where adults feed their kids "sports". I see the line between fantasy and reality being poorly discerned by many today whose main interaction with life is a small rectangle held in two hands. And I see the "heroes" of the day have changed somewhat...where we used to think Dad was a superhero who could do anything And teach me everything, these days it's some dude on YT who has a million viewers watch him as he shows everyone how to fry a bloody egg. Good grief. 

And yet, sometimes it works out good too. I got interested in archery through a desire to hunt with a bow. My daughters got interested, of course through Katniss. The fact that daddy had a bow and was learning too, I guess, was cool. It became a journey of discovery for all of us at the same time. But, because Daddy wasn't a student of fantasy, the girls got a healthy dose of reality as well. 

Yes, it's the dawn of a new age. But, just like most things in growing up, if there's a mentor watching over them, showing them the difference between fantasy and reality, I think everything's going to end up fine.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

zu! said:


> Yes, it's the dawn of a new age. But, just like most things in growing up, if there's a mentor watching over them, showing them the difference between fantasy and reality, I think everything's going to end up fine.


As they say "if" is a big word. Mass media is just a "thing" and there has always been something.

I think that these days it's often the "mentor" that's missing. Not necessarily an archery mentor but life mentors. TV and internet aren't going to hurt kids unless it's the TV and internet that's raising them. Tools can be good or bad depending on how they're used.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Lest we remember?...the word "Fantasy" is derived from the word "Fan"...which is abbreviated slang for the word..."FANATIC"...which is a mental condition whereby a thing or activity that is of this world has drawn the exclusive attention of the afflicted away from the things in life that are of true importance and matter most....ever notice how many Traditional Bowmen will have "Scriptural Verses" inscribed on their bows?...this isn't by accident.


Ummm...that's not correct.

Fantasy is not derived from the word "fanatic" or "fan." Fantasy is derived from the French word _*"fantasie"*_ or the latin word _*"phantasia,"*_ which mean "illusory appearance, vision, or imagination."

Fanatic, on the other hand is derived from the Latin word _*"fanaticus"*_ which means "of a temple, or inspired by a god," or from the Latin word _*"fanum"*_ which means "temple." The adjective originally described behavior or speech that might result from possession by a god or demon, hence the earliest sense of the noun "a religious maniac."

Having a fantasy is not a mental condition. It is simply the thought of something that doesn't appear to be a reality...currently.

KPC


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Good grief here we go again. Life's too short guys. Pretty soon we'll all be dead! Lol lighten up.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Too short for what?


Lighten up yourself if you want. LOL


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

jakeemt said:


> Good grief here we go again. Life's too short guys. Pretty soon we'll all be dead! Lol lighten up.


True... but Kev is correct.

Joe wants to help the more seasoned archers deal/work/put up with the ever occurring inaccuracies or misinformation being touted as truth or possibilities by the new generation of archers that may have had their interest piqued by archery being promoted in a way that doesn't portray solid basics/foundation as being important or the most important thing tied to being successful in archery. I commend him for wanting to do that.

By the way... none of that has to do with the fun side of what we do in regards to being an archer... which is what brought us and keeps us here folks.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JParanee said:


> You of course are entilted to your opinion and I respect it


As are you good sir. Like the saying goes... you catch more flies with honey. Obviously some of the stuff being argued about goes against the grain of what some see as being correct, useful, probable or worthwhile... we won't garner much success in trying to help them if we talk down on what they possibly hold close to them.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know if getting people started with unrealistic expectations is a good way to get them involved for the long term. It might be a good way to sell them one cheap bow if you never expect to see them again. I've seen it in other activities/industries.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grapplemonkey said:


> As are you good sir. Like the saying goes... you catch more flies with honey. Obviously some of the stuff being argued about goes against the grain of what some see as being correct, useful, probable or worthwhile... we won't garner much success in trying to help them if we talk down on what they possibly hold close to them.


Or if there's any determination about them, it won't matter.

Personally, I don't care for flies and I'm not trying to catch them. LOL


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grapplemonkey said:


> True... but Kev is correct.
> 
> Joe wants to help the more seasoned archers deal/work/put up with the ever occurring inaccuracies or misinformation being touted as truth or possibilities by the new generation of archers that may have had their interest piqued by archery being promoted in a way that doesn't portray solid basics/foundation as being important or the most important thing tied to being successful in archery. I commend him for wanting to do that.
> 
> By the way... none of that has to do with the fun side of what we do in regards to being an archer... which is what brought us and keeps us here folks.


Bingo

Thank you Grapple


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

I totally get you Joe. From your posts to your videos to your reviews... anyone that follows you can see that you're deeply involved and love what you do with archery. You trying to eek out every bit of performance... from your form to your gear... and every other aspect of your game is a testament to your respect of what it takes to be successful. For the casual archer you'd probably be the form and function gestapo... which I think is cool but others can get put off by it... especially of they're not as into it as others are. You can't elevate someone's excellence when it's not what they're about.

With that said Joe... thank you for elevating your excellence and for helping those that want to elevate theirs too. :thumbs_up


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grapplemonkey said:


> I totally get you Joe. From your posts to your videos to your reviews... anyone that follows you can see that you're deeply involved and love what you do with archery. You trying to eek out every bit of performance... from your form to your gear... and every other aspect of your game is a testament to your respect of what it takes to be successful. For the casual archer you'd probably be the form and function gestapo... which I think is cool but others can get put off by it... especially of they're not as into it as others are. You can't elevate someone's excellence when it's not what they're about.
> 
> With that said Joe... thank you for elevating your excellence and for helping those that want to elevate theirs too. :thumbs_up


Your way to kind and I am far from Excellent  

We are all just works in progress 

One thing I do know is how critters die 

From arrows to bullets to blades.........I have seen a lot and I do get baffled when someone that has no killing expierence argues the topic

Another example is when you have a world champion target archer trying to relay what acuracy is and a guy that just picked up a bow is telling him that's not how it's done 

I truly think that there should be a sticky to funnel some of the new fantasy based shooters coming into the game with some form of direction between fantasy and reality 

If I came off in any other way than trying to be helpful to anyone 

It was not my intention


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

grapplemonkey said:


> Joe wants to help the more seasoned archers deal/work/put up with the ever occurring inaccuracies or misinformation being touted as truth or possibilities by the new generation of archers that may have had their interest piqued by archery being promoted in a way that doesn't portray solid basics/foundation as being important or the most important thing tied to being successful in archery. I commend him for wanting to do that.


At the end of the day, does it really matter how it's promoted, or whether or not the basics and foundation are being portrayed correctly, as long as kids are interested enough to pick up bows and arrows?

In my case, my parents exposed all of us kids to archery. I'm the only one that cared enough to ever continue. Ironically, if you look at the picture I posted earlier...









I'm the youngster in the background with the left handed bow. Only problem is, I'm right handed. And yes, I was shooting a left hand bow...*right handed*.

Point being, I didn't even need the correct handed equipment for it to click with me. There was just something about flinging arrows that resonated with me, and I've been doing it ever since. Let's not take this stuff so seriously that we forget that in order for youngsters to truly *want* to stick with anything, it first has to be fun. If some young boy or girl wants to be Fred Bear shooting elephants or Katniss Everdeen shooting enemies, so be it. If it clicks, it clicks...and there will be more than enough time to learn proper form.

KPC


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

GEREP said:


> At the end of the day, does it really matter how it's promoted, or whether or not the basics and foundation are being portrayed correctly, as long as kids are interested enough to pick up bows and arrows?
> 
> 
> KPC



I agree about getting kids started anyway possible. But we are not talking about kids and fantasy . If an adult (50+) asks for advice about a first bow, and then argues with Viper about form, and then argues with Joe about short drawing to shoot fast and not needing full power . It is easy to get frustrated. Everyone here wants to help get new people started, but what are you going to do ? :confused2:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

gnome said:


> I agree about getting kids started anyway possible. But we are not talking about kids and fantasy.


Actually, we are. At least that's what JP started the conversation about. 

_*"Today this new generation of archers is being inspired by different archers 
These are the Katinisas (Hunger Games) , Elves and Orcs and shows like the Walking Dead where are hero uses the worse possible Zombie Apocolypse Weapon I can imagine a crossbow 
When Lars Video went viral many that have been in this for a wile smiled and said neat video minus the stupid commentary and outrageous claims we were amused 
But many many young archers coming from a fantasy based interest ate it up."*_

I still maintain that no matter what fantastic character, either real or fictional, convinces the new generation to pick up a bow, it's a good thing. Some will stick with it and learn, and some will move on to other things. Just like my generation, and the one the preceded it, and the one that followed it.

KPC


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Yes, you are right.
I was responding more to post #53 and some comments from a recent thread , that sort of prompted this one.
I may be way off in left field on this (not an unusual condition!) :embara:
And I still agree about getting kids started any way that works.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

gnome said:


> Yes, you are right.
> I was responding more to post #53 and some comments from a recent thread , that sort of prompted this one.
> I may be way off in left field on this (not an unusual condition!) :embara:
> And I still agree about getting kids started any way that works.


No Gnome you are correct 

I did say youth but I do not know how old they are 

You got my point correct


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Many of you received this thread as I intended it to be 

Some are seeing it as I'm saying that my childhood idols and inspirations are better than today's fantasy inspired shooters idols are 

That's not it 

Albeit my idols have their flaws my point is that they were and are real to a certain degree

I do not know the age of this new genre of shooter .... I would assume they are young but as we have seen that is not always the case 

I'll Ask again how do you put it in a polite way that fantasy based shooting scenarios don't apply themselves well to actually killing and hitting your mark 

For those that want to turn this into anything more than that ...... Well I just don't get that

Gnome and many others including Kegan have made mention of many fantasy based scenarios that we find ourselves speaking about


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Btw 

It's almost time for the Walking Dead and I do like me a healthy dose of fiction at times just not in my shooting


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

It's not the Legend Of Robinhood that's anything new. It is how and where it's showing up that is somewhat misplaced. There are places to discuss things and places where the same discussions are totally out of place. Start seeing them together and yes, there's something new in the tides.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

I'd think the new crowd getting interested isn't dumb enough to believe there is a real life adaption to the nonsense they see on TV or movies. They deserve some credit but at the same time it's kind of sad in a way because there are no real life "heros" for them to idolize. Quite frankly, a lot of them don't really know what is within the scope of reality when it comes to archery outside Olympic shooting unless they get out to a range and see for themselves. Regardless, what ever brings in new people is a good thing, even if it's zombies or elves.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Rancho, you have heard around here lately that Archers Paradox is a complete myth; proved historically, by a guy on YouTube shooting from the right side of his bow ?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Rancho, you have heard around here lately that Archers Paradox is a complete myth; proved historically, by a guy on YouTube shooting from the right side of his bow ?


This is some of the stuff I am speaking of 

Not puttng down kids interested thru fantasy 

I love the lord of the rings movies etc and some of the fictional tales I grew up with inspired me also 

it's the ones arguing the logic of archery that I am speaking of


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Yeah, and the back quiver is a Hollywood fiction. The big surprise was the truth about Olympic archery. Glad someone came along and gave us the straight scoop 

I'm just waiting for the day to see someone bouncing off the trees and running through our 3D course. You just know someone is going to try it.


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## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

Joe, another great thread!
Every generation has it's inspiration.
In his book, _"Shooting The Stickbow"_, Viper mentions _"The Adventures of Robin Hood"_ as being his catalyst. For myself, there were a hundred TV westerns that inspired me, but what nailed it home was _"Deliverance"_ and watching Burt Reynolds with that ass-kicking recurve in action on the Big Screen in some nameless, dark movie theater. That flipped the switch for me...even way back then.
Watching Barry Wensel slo-mo a deer at full tilt with a sightless recurve just made it worse, is all.
So really, what difference does it make if it's Katniss Everdeen, or Legolas or Lars Anderson that trips the trigger of the kid down the block? What matters is that it 'clicks' and the hunger and thirst for archery is born. How it winds and twists and all plays out in the end is not important. What IS, is that 'traditional' archery (yeah, hate the term too) carries on to yet another generation.
Thanks, Joe. It matters.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

*A Related Scenario:*

A kid walks into their first guitar lesson with their new electric guitar. The teacher chats with the kid a bit. Seems all the kid wants to play is _Stairway to Heaven_ and the first lick from _Black Dog_. 

The teacher says, “Fine, let’s get busy.”

The first lesson consists of handling the guitar, teaching the kid the layout numbering of the strings, what’s up and down, and how to place a finger in the right spot to make a sound, coordinating the pick on the same string that’s being fingered, et al ad infinitum. 

At the end of the lesson, the kid goes home to practice some basic fingerings and maybe a chord or two. The kid (oh, yeah … kids are plenty smart!) has already mentally filed _Stairway_ and _Black Dog_ under “TBA”. 

In three or four years, the kid’s playing _The Girl From Ipanema_, bossa-nova style, on a classical guitar in his school's talent show.




JParanee said:


> I'll Ask again how do you put it in a polite way that fantasy based shooting scenarios don't apply themselves well to actually killing and hitting your mark


*The Extrapolation:*

I don’t believe that you need to steer someone away from their initial goals. The implications of what it will take to learn to shoot even minimally well will become obvious to them the moment they pick up a bow and shoot it. That first session with the bow may entirely shift their perspective and open up what they had never considered archery to be like from their prior bystander’s point of view. 

I also (quite selfishly) look at it like this: average hobby behavior happens, and the average hobbyist isn’t going to stick with a new hobby for very long, anyway. Therefore, to me, it’s a waste of time and energy attempting to “convert” someone to a fold other than the one they have their heart set on entering. The odds of average will often find that person entering and exiting the hobby within a matter of months. This induces a bit of detachment into my initial commitment to certain conversations with the unknown.

If they ask to be stylistically steered … that’s when to steer. Otherwise, perhaps simply addressing, in a non-biased manner, their questions about getting started in archery would be the most constructive thing to do. Help them to get the right equipment in their hands and point them towards valid instructional resources to get them up and running in the most efficient manner.

The trick is to welcome, engage, and befriend … not to judge. They’ll judge themselves soon enough. And if they post back in a month stating that they enjoy shooting themselves in the foot with their arrows, well, congratulate them and encourage them to keep up the good work. 

Of course, I don’t think this will happen. They’ll most likely begin asking questions about right flyers and aiming. 

Now we got ‘em!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Captainkirk said:


> Joe, another great thread!
> Every generation has it's inspiration.
> In his book, _"Shooting The Stickbow"_, Viper mentions _"The Adventures of Robin Hood"_ as being his catalyst. For myself, there were a hundred TV westerns that inspired me, but what nailed it home was _"Deliverance"_ and watching Burt Reynolds with that ass-kicking recurve in action on the Big Screen in some nameless, dark movie theater. That flipped the switch for me...even way back then.
> Watching Barry Wensel slo-mo a deer at full tilt with a sightless recurve just made it worse, is all.
> ...


Thanks Capt


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Thin Man said:


> *A Related Scenario:*
> 
> A kid walks into their first guitar lesson with their new electric guitar. The teacher chats with the kid a bit. Seems all the kid wants to play is _Stairway to Heaven_ and the first lick from _Black Dog_.
> 
> ...


Good response Thin


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

gnome said:


> If an adult (50+) asks for advice about a first bow, and then argues with Viper about form, and then argues with Joe about short drawing to shoot fast and not needing full power . It is easy to get frustrated.





JParanee said:


> I love the lord of the rings movies etc and some of the fictional tales I grew up with inspired me also
> 
> it's the ones arguing the logic of archery that I am speaking of




I agree to a certain extent, however it's often that new generation of archers (and bowyers) that *BY* questioning the "logic of archery," the sport actually moves forward.

Think of the very bow that you are shooting today JP. It wasn't all that long ago that designs like that weren't considered "logical," and the designer has vehemently argued that "logic" to anyone who will listen, including the experts that said it wouldn't work. Had the designer listened to the *"logic"* of the experts, would you be shooting what you are today? 

Would I be shooting what I am shooting today? A few years ago, the argument was that the ILF connection wasn't "logical," suitable, or even safe for use on hunting length risers. The people who disagreed, vehemently argued with the experts who said it wouldn't work, and look where we are today.

How about the use of carbon arrows from traditional bows? Vanes off the shelf? Two knocking points? Cock feather orientation? less than 10 gpp of arrow weight? And the list goes on and on. 

Personally, I think characters, real or fictional, like Lars Andersen, Katniss Everdeen, Frank Addington, or Robin Hood, are all about the same. What they do has very little, if anything to do with what you or I might think (or *KNOW*) about archery. At the end of the day however, if they encourage any person, of any age, to start their own archery journey, it's a good thing. They will either stick with it and learn for themselves what actually will work, what is possible, or what is logical...or they won't. But one thing for sure, had they never been inspired to pick up a bow in the first place, even if it was by a fictional character doing fantastic archery feats, they would never have had the chance. 

Some of us have to try things for ourselves, both to find out what *isn't* possible, but more importantly to find out what *IS*.

KPC


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

W


GEREP said:


> I agree to a certain extent, however it's often that new generation of archers (and bowyers) that *BY* questioning the "logic of archery," the sport actually moves forward.
> 
> Think of the very bow that you are shooting today JP. It wasn't all that long ago that designs like that weren't considered "logical," and the designer has vehemently argued that "logic" to anyone who will listen, including the experts that said it wouldn't work. Had the designer listened to the *"logic"* of the experts, would you be shooting what you are today?
> 
> ...


Good post kevin and all very true


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

There seems to be a lot of different conversations going on here as well. From the beginning posts about the Lars video, my observation had been related to the changing signs of the times. That's kinda how I take JP's post, though, I too might be having a different conversation.

For me, it's not good or bad or indifferent. It's different. It's the new age.

How many decades have the old reels been out? How many decades have archery videos been on the web? How much information is published out there? How many youth archery programs have been initiated?

One video, one day, and Lars touches 8 million folks. Becomes a worldwide sensation! Becomes mainstream news on some television. With his current viewing and talking points list growing by way more than that first day, he's a bigger box office hit than any multimillion dollar Hollywood production. IOW, he's more archery by the numbers touched than a century of archery by older methods.

That's the "dawn of the new age" of information dissemination. Who believes what and argues what and relearns what is just to be dealt with. Won't change reality.


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## Robert Courtland (Feb 17, 2015)

Sanford said:


> Rancho, you have heard around here lately that Archers Paradox is a complete myth; proved historically, by a guy on YouTube shooting from the right side of his bow ?


Things do get around, don't they. It isn't so much that it is a myth as the typical description of it is wrong. The way the paradox was described to me, that the arrow curves around the bow, is just plain wrong. The compressive force from the string sets up an oscillation in the arrow shaft. The tip of the arrow flies in a straight path to the target while the shaft of a well tuned arrow is pushed away from the bow, reducing friction and preventing any alteration of the initial trajectory. Someone posted a paper on the topic, but I prefer to watch it in action in slow motion video (it has to be over 1000 fps to really see it). This video has a couple of great angles directly down the arrow shaft to the target. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfyzL9C-8WY) The oscillation is worst right off the bow and would reduce to near nothing if the arrow was in flight long enough. I think that explains why I always noticed that if you are too close to the target the arrows tend to impact and stop and noticeable angles where at further distances they are pretty straight.

That leads me to comment on shooting at close range. An arrow would be a more sure way of hitting and wounding an enemy than any melee weapon, but if someone is coming at you with a sword, unless you inflict a mortal wound, they probably are still going to come at you. You would need time to draw a sword and meet their blow, be able to move out of their way, or use your bow to deflect the sword (likely destroying it - even if it didn't break, any damage to the bow would compromise its ability to function). I've seen some Hollywood scenes where an archer uses their bow as a staff weapon and while just about any bow is quite strong enough for that, there is always a good chance of damaging the bow to the point where it could no longer be used. An archer in such a hand to hand combat situation would need to know how close to let the enemy come before changing to a sword. And I think that distance is somewhat dependent on the skill of the archer. If you can inflict killing shots from point blank, you might not need to change weapons until you run out of arrows. And then it also depends on the armor and what type of tip you are using. A broadhead will hurt a lot and is more likely to incapacitate, but it is also less likely to penetrate armor. An armor piercing tip is more likely to cause a wound, but less likely to incapacitate. So close range and point blank shooting have a lot of variables to consider. It is a good skill for an archer to have, but isn't always useful.

Entertainment of various sorts is a great way to get inspired to new things. The visuals of movies are particularly appealing. Legolas, Katniss, and Robin Hood are going to get a lot of people interested. If they are lucky, they will find an archery teacher who won't squash their dreams, but in time they will come to see how really badly the movies handle the sport. Howard Hill's work in the 1937 Robin Hood is somewhat unusual compared to modern movies which look more exciting because they rely on special effects.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Robert Courtland said:


> If you can inflict killing shots from point blank, you might not need to change weapons until you run out of arrows. And then it also depends on the armor and what type of tip you are using. A broadhead will hurt a lot and is more likely to incapacitate, but it is also less likely to penetrate armor. An armor piercing tip is more likely to cause a wound, but less likely to incapacitate. So close range and point blank shooting have a lot of variables to consider. It is a good skill for an archer to have, but isn't always useful.


This is where the consilience in knowledge base is more valuable. Our hunter base crowd here will tell you, that's pure fantasy. They actually kill things. 

There's no point blank killing with any bow. Archery for killing anything is asphyxiation (lung damage) or hemorrhaging (blood loss). Neither of these do you any good point blank. Militarily, a bow was primarily a distance weapon - time to bleed out (even for horse archers) or harassment - shoot and run hoping for a bleed out (again, horse archer).


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sanford said:


> There seems to be a lot of different conversations going on here as well. From the beginning posts about the Lars video, my observation had been related to the changing signs of the times. That's kinda how I take JP's post, though, I too might be having a different conversation.
> 
> For me, it's not good or bad or indifferent. It's different. It's the new age.
> 
> ...


There are many different conversations going on here 

Yes how do we as archers argue misinformation ?


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Robert…not really the thread that begs this…but…(excuse me Joe)

Firstly, a compound bow shot with a release is not the same as finger shooting stick bows, in that the mechanics of the former work towards giving the arrow a straighter push…simple enough…except there is much about most modern equipment to cause confusion.

“Paradox” as viewed from a perspective that predates our grandparents, relates to a view from behind the archer that would indicate that the arrow points to a place other than where it will eventually hit. That is what defines the paradox…and it is more easily understandable with equipment that predates cut-out windows, than trying to reference equipment of more modern eras. 

Personally, I’ve been shooting instinctively (for lack of a better word…and there ain’t one) for nearly 60 years. My bow hand goes straight to target and my draw hand is placed well-along the side of my face. It takes minimal ability with visualization to expect that there is no way the length of my arrow CAN be pointed at the target…UNLESS everything is brought into alignment in front of my dominant eye.

And, part of shall we say “common knowledge” being that overspined arrows travel to the left (for right handed archers) would cause me to submit that overspined arrows are inclined to go more precisely in the direction that they were oriented, prior to being released.

What seems to fail “normal” circumstance in the video you’ve presented happens around the mid-point. There, the archer appears NOT to have an anchor that comes into contact with his face…neither is his bow hand placed anywhere near a relationship one would be inclined to use when shooting. Personally, when I’ve contemplated making such a video, what immediately comes to mind is the improbability of capturing what I would like to…BECAUSE…my head would be in the way. Bottom line…I tend to believe a careful (second) look at the video, distinctly shows a perspective that favors the camera…and not the archer. Simply put…both hands are being pushed into camera view.

Also, what might remain as “the arrow’s alignment still shows it is going straight...as with most any other course an arrow might take, can be tweaked with a variation of spine. It COULD be, that when wanting arrows that have exaggerated flight characteristcs, for the purpose of videoing, the leaning towards underspined arrows would be preferable. 

As far as any conversation that relates to combat…unless someone has been there…ALL comments are nothing more than one finds in childhood fantasies. I haven’t shot at a human silhouette since the service…and it was around that time that archery was no longer being taught to elite servicemen. It might seem odd to some…but the majority of people who have intimate knowledge of such things typically prefer not to talk about it. 

All I got. Rick.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

JParanee said:


> There are many different conversations going on here
> 
> Yes how do we as archers argue misinformation ?


Well, I think everything in this thread has proven you are right-there are a lot of the fantasy folks coming rather than that normal hunting crowd. I can't say I like that direction (as a hunter) but I guess it is what it is.


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## Robert Courtland (Feb 17, 2015)

Sanford said:


> This is where the consilience in knowledge base is more valuable. Our hunter base crowd here will tell you, that's pure fantasy. They actually kill things.
> 
> There's no point blank killing with any bow. Archery for killing anything is asphyxiation (lung damage) or hemorrhaging (blood loss). Neither of these do you any good point blank. Militarily, a bow was primarily a distance weapon - time to bleed out (even for horse archers) or harassment - shoot and run hoping for a bleed out (again, horse archer).


There are places to wound a human that will leave them rolling on the ground and unable to fight. There are a few places to deal a fatal blow that will have them dead in seconds. If you know those places and can hit them... Skill, type of armor, etc., all plays into that. For most archers it is going to be quite a distance but some of the more skilled, they might keep shooting longer. It also depends on your skill with a sword. Maybe what you need is to put a couple of arrows in the enemy and then draw your sword. There are a lot of variables. There are a lot of cases of people being incapacitated or killed by a single arrow. King Harold for instance.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sanford said:


> This is where the consilience in knowledge base is more valuable. Our hunter base crowd here will tell you, that's pure fantasy. They actually kill things.
> 
> There's no point blank killing with any bow. Archery for killing anything is asphyxiation (lung damage) or hemorrhaging (blood loss). Neither of these do you any good point blank. Militarily, a bow was primarily a distance weapon - time to bleed out (even for horse archers) or harassment - shoot and run hoping for a bleed out (again, horse archer).



This is a perfect example of what I am speaking of 

Not to be offensive to Mr Courtland


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JParanee said:


> This is a perfect example of what I am speaking of
> 
> Not to be offensive to Mr Courtland


I'll bet I could find him more current pictures of folks with an arrow through the head, steel rods through the brain, and gunshots through and through their head/eye/whatever, AND who survived. Way more than he can find King Harold stories. But, when you are dealing with ancient skilled archers who know the exact pressure points on a human to kill them instantly, who can compete with that ? 

Robert, the conversation is not out of the realm of good discussion. If this were a video-gaming programmer forum, such would be meat for the table. If it was a LARP forum, it would provide new role plays. In an archery forum, it's entertaining but not to be mixed with reality. That's all folks are saying.


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## Robert Courtland (Feb 17, 2015)

rickstix said:


> Robert…not really the thread that begs this…but…(excuse me Joe)
> 
> Firstly, a compound bow shot with a release is not the same as finger shooting stick bows, in that the mechanics of the former work towards giving the arrow a straighter push…simple enough…except there is much about most modern equipment to cause confusion.
> 
> ...


From what I've seen, you can't see what is happening to the arrow at even 120 fps slowed down. You need 1000-2000 fps to see it which means it is beyond the range of human observation to really see what is going on. Science does tend to do that to human observations. We think we see one thing and science shows it is something else. The force of the bow string trying to move the arrow causes the arrow to flex. That is even true of the compound bow if you look closely at that video. It is the nature of that flex that causes the arrow and the bow to not interact along the entire length of the shaft. Only the front part of the arrow interacts and that determines how the force from the string pushes the arrow. There are two shots in that video of an archer with a traditional bow where you can watch the arrow from moment of release to when it hits the target. Here is another video with several similar shots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWrcpzuAp8).


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sanford said:


> I'll bet I could find him more current pictures of folks with an arrow through the head, steel rods through the brain, and gunshots through and through their head/eye/whatever, AND who survived. Way more than he can find King Harold stories. But, when you are dealing with ancient skilled archers who know the exact pressure points on a human to kill them instantly, who can compete with that ?
> 
> Robert, the conversation is not out of the realm of good discussion. If this were a video-gaming programmer forum, such would be meat for the table. If it was a LARP forum, it would provide new role plays. In an archery forum, it's entertaining but not to be mixed with reality. That's all folks are saying.


The comment came along at a good point in the thread  

I'm all about talking about swords and melee weapons 

I studied Kendo and Iaido for many many years and have a lot of time in with swords etc 

As for a sword not being an incapacitating weapon and can you say off with their heads


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## Robert Courtland (Feb 17, 2015)

Sanford said:


> I'll bet I could find him more current pictures of folks with an arrow through the head, steel rods through the brain, and gunshots through and through their head/eye/whatever, AND who survived. Way more than he can find King Harold stories. But, when you are dealing with ancient skilled archers who know the exact pressure points on a human to kill them instantly, who can compete with that ?
> 
> Robert, the conversation is not out of the realm of good discussion. If this were a video-gaming programmer forum, such would be meat for the table. If it was a LARP forum, it would provide new role plays. In an archery forum, it's entertaining but not to be mixed with reality. That's all folks are saying.


No, no, no, no... I think you mistake what I was speaking of. If you can hit what you want to at close ranges and know, for instance, that if you shoot someone just right in the neck and cut their jugular, they will be dead before they can reach you, go for it. Most people aren't going to be able to do that. That is the kind of instant kill I was talking of. The other group are not killing shots, but would hit in a location that will make it impossible for a person to fight. An arrow through the eye would likely put that person out of the fight. It might kill them eventually, but not immediately. And if you have time to get off two arrows and get both their eyes you don't really have to worry about the person. It is a matter of pain and functionality. Arrows just aren't as effective as bullets, but the principle is the same. If you shoot someone in the kneecap with a bullet, they aren't dead, but they aren't going to do much. Arrows have a more limited range of options, but it is not zero. The less armor they have the more options you have. And note, I did not give any distances because I don't know what they might be. Just from my own archery experience, I'd definitely give up the bow at anything under 20 yards.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

This is awesome 

Just what I was talking about


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## GrayTech (Jan 29, 2013)

All humans are inherently biased. How is shooting a rubber deer not fantasy role playing? If we can't accept varying drives, objectives and expressions in archery, how the he'll do we expect society at large to improve. It seems many people have become lost in their own little worlds, viewing anything other than what they know as suspect or threatening. 
And yes, I am a serious archer and hunter of anything I can eat.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Robert Courtland said:


> No, no, no, no... I think you mistake what I was speaking of. If you can hit what you want to at close ranges and know, for instance, that if you shoot someone just right in the neck and cut their jugular, they will be dead before they can reach you, go for it. Most people aren't going to be able to do that. That is the kind of instant kill I was talking of. The other group are not killing shots, but would hit in a location that will make it impossible for a person to fight. An arrow through the eye would likely put that person out of the fight. It might kill them eventually, but not immediately. And if you have time to get off two arrows and get both their eyes you don't really have to worry about the person. It is a matter of pain and functionality. Arrows just aren't as effective as bullets, but the principle is the same. If you shoot someone in the kneecap with a bullet, they aren't dead, but they aren't going to do much. Arrows have a more limited range of options, but it is not zero. The less armor they have the more options you have. And note, I did not give any distances because I don't know what they might be. Just from my own archery experience, I'd definitely give up the bow at anything under 20 yards.


Yeah, but you forgot that the other guy whom one is shooting at is also as agile as Lars and can catch your arrows before they hit him, throwing them right back at you, or, saving them for firewood to roast your butt on later  See where this can go??? Seems like this is the second time in the past few weeks we have had folks discussing bow ninja's.

Take what has been done with Mongolian or Asiatic horse archery. Historically speaking, what we know and do now as horse archery is not really what it was, which was archery from a horse - longer bows, longer arrows, heavy bows, and mobile effective range shooting - a mobile English Longbowman.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GrayTech said:


> How is shooting a rubber deer not fantasy role playing?


Because we know if we hit it in the eye we "really" get 5 points on our card  And, if we hit a real one in the eye we'll feel bad about seriously wounding it. My guess, but I don't hunt.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

GrayTech said:


> All humans are inherently biased. How is shooting a rubber deer not fantasy role playing? If we can't accept varying drives, objectives and expressions in archery, how the he'll do we expect society at large to improve. It seems many people have become lost in their own little worlds, viewing anything other than what they know as suspect or threatening.
> And yes, I am a serious archer and hunter of anything I can eat.


Because I will actually go shoot a real deer, using the real techniques and equipment practiced for that task. Not fantasy.

btw-fantasizing about shooting someone in the neck with an arrow is far from something I accept. A lot of this fantasy does nothing to improve our society of a whole because it makes light of the very real and horrific. I could care less if you don't like my unacceptance of that.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Robert Courtland said:


> Here is another video with several similar shots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWrcpzuAp8).


Apparently I haven’t effectively transmitted the meaning of the term paradox. Its origin has nothing to do with flight characteristics…it is how the arrow is oriented prior to release and how it will impact to a different point. What the arrow goes through AFTER release is another matter…although it is the same terminology that is commonly referred to in expressing a dynamic.

As far as Daniel’s video goes…well, obviously the second shot illustrates what I’d said earlier about a shot that favors the camera’s purpose and not the archers. Also we know he used a number of differently spined shafts in those videos…and the point being that I can also make an arrow follow a straight line for the camera…but that arrow will be incorrectly spined for my everyday use. 

Neither my eyes, high speed cameras, or someone’s interpretation of “science” really deals with all the nuances at play. I’ve yet to have heard them all mentioned, nor have I heard of anyone building the equipment to measure them.

Speculating on the endless possibilities of injury and/or death in ancient warfare sounds like the making of a video game. By rights, discussion of the elements of warfare serves lessons-learned…and consequently better training/preparation. Warfare itself is pure mayhem and lacks the rhyme or reason of a computer program.

Seems the post started with a welcoming tone towards new archers…and was not at all directed towards reaching conclusions about how the ancient ones live and died...how unfortunate. Stick a fork in me…I’m done. Rick.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Robert Courtland said:


> From what I've seen, you can't see what is happening to the arrow at even 120 fps slowed down. You need 1000-2000 fps to see it which means it is beyond the range of human observation to really see what is going on. Science does tend to do that to human observations. We think we see one thing and science shows it is something else. The force of the bow string trying to move the arrow causes the arrow to flex. That is even true of the compound bow if you look closely at that video. It is the nature of that flex that causes the arrow and the bow to not interact along the entire length of the shaft. Only the front part of the arrow interacts and that determines how the force from the string pushes the arrow. There are two shots in that video of an archer with a traditional bow where you can watch the arrow from moment of release to when it hits the target. Here is another video with several similar shots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWrcpzuAp8).


Are we still arguing about what happens through the shot of a finger release? Most of the slow motion is 1000 fps or faster, and very easily seen. I don't get the use of the straw man here. It's clear, it's well understood, and makes a whole lot of sense with very well-established physics. Can we move on?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

rickstix said:


> As far as Daniel’s video goes…well, obviously the second shot illustrates what I’d said earlier about a shot that favors the camera’s purpose and not the archers. Also we know he used a number of differently spined shafts in those videos…and the point being that I can also make an arrow follow a straight line for the camera…but that arrow will be incorrectly spined for my everyday use.


I don't know if it's what you're getting at, but it does bring up an issue with how you tune. There is, in my own use, a kind of grey area, where I can opt to adjust just mildly for my form to address impact, if I feel that I'm shooting pretty solidly. Hence, the use of the plunger. While I do want the arrow coming off the bow pretty straight, and want my broadheads to fly the same as my field points, so much as that is possible, I also would like to hit where I'm aiming. If I'm grouping well, and I'm averaging a couple inches left or right near the original tune I had established shooting bare shafts, i might lean towards making a very minor adjustment to accommodate that day's tuning. At times, I have noticed that my own shooting variation may cause a change in total tune of the entire system, me included, that does indeed show up with bare shaft tuning. But, if I'm used to how to shoot, and it feels right, I might take a shortcut and simply adjust the plunger, just because...

While I wouldn't advocate it as a main method, that IBO champion's mantra of 'Tuning to shoot where you look', at times seems to make a little sense, though I'd say that doing it as a primary method is setting yourself up for disaster


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## Robert Courtland (Feb 17, 2015)

rickstix said:


> Neither my eyes, high speed cameras, or someone’s interpretation of “science” really deals with all the nuances at play. I’ve yet to have heard them all mentioned, nor have I heard of anyone building the equipment to measure them.


 I quite agree. I'm seeing one set, remembering another and you have experienced a third. I have tests in mind, I have the requisite physics to do the basic math, but I lack a high speed camera. I also lack time.



> Speculating on the endless possibilities of injury and/or death in ancient warfare sounds like the making of a video game. By rights, discussion of the elements of warfare serves lessons-learned…and consequently better training/preparation. Warfare itself is pure mayhem and lacks the rhyme or reason of a computer program.


 Yes, you have nailed the one thing that is quite different between reality and fiction (be it books, games, movies, LARP, or anything similar). Reality in war is that your life is on the line. Good training goes a long way, but actual experience is the only way to answer some of these questions. Without some sort of time machine, none of us are going to get to experience that or interview anyone who has. Even experience in modern warfare isn't a good substitute because the modern soldier has excellent training and that may or may not have been the case in any given time in our history. We writers of fantasy make the best guess we can. I mix history with movies and reenactment along with whatever experience I may have to create the fiction. Most fiction is a pale shadow of reality. When you read about the history of these ancient battles, death, dismemberment, disease, and suffering are always there. Some take more glee in depicting that side than others. Mayhem is the perfect word for reality, but to depict mayhem takes a lot of organization.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Robert Courtland said:


> I quite agree. I'm seeing one set, remembering another and you have experienced a third. I have tests in mind, I have the requisite physics to do the basic math, but I lack a high speed camera. I also lack time.
> 
> Yes, you have nailed the one thing that is quite different between reality and fiction (be it books, games, movies, LARP, or anything similar). Reality in war is that your life is on the line. Good training goes a long way, but actual experience is the only way to answer some of these questions. Without some sort of time machine, none of us are going to get to experience that or interview anyone who has. Even experience in modern warfare isn't a good substitute because the modern soldier has excellent training and that may or may not have been the case in any given time in our history. We writers of fantasy make the best guess we can. I mix history with movies and reenactment along with whatever experience I may have to create the fiction. Most fiction is a pale shadow of reality. When you read about the history of these ancient battles, death, dismemberment, disease, and suffering are always there. Some take more glee in depicting that side than others. Mayhem is the perfect word for reality, but to depict mayhem takes a lot of organization.


Yes none of us can speak of combat archery in a first hand way but many on here can tell you how animals die with arrows and what can be expected in field accuracy etc 

To shoot out both of your enemies eyes as you suggest  is rather hard to do unless you are a star of a work of fiction


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## longbowdude (Jun 9, 2005)

I dont think you have much to worry about. I think this started a couple generations ago anyway. I started shooting trad bows seriously about 15 years ago and I had never heard of Hill, Fred Bear, Paul Schafer or Pope and Young. I learned about them afterwards and turned out Ok.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

JParanee said:


> This is awesome
> 
> Just what I was talking about


Is the season open or are you going to have to throw them back?:wink:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

SteveB said:


> Is the season open or are you going to have to throw them back?:wink:


Always catch and release

Well almost always


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't know if it's what you're getting at...


Really, I was just trying to make a simple point...and trying to relate that to modern equipment only complicates matters. 

If, for example you consider an English longbow...direct your draw hand to target and pull the string off to the side of your head, your arrow will not be pointed at the target...but with the properly spined arrow it arrives where the bow hand directed it. This pointed in one direction and going in another is paradoxical...or...simply the paradox. And...too stiff an arrow is inclined to agree with where it was pointed prior to release.

On the other, more familiar, extreme would be a center-shot bow (more or less), sight on the bow, and a peep sight on the string. That arrow is not forced through the same radical behavior as with an English longbow...but still has to yield to the forces pushing it, even though the arrow may be in virtually precise alignment with its destination. Given such conditions..."the arrow travels around the bow" loses it's context...and paradox has come to relate to something more of a dynamic. Enjoy, Rick.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

ranchoarcher said:


> Yeah, and the back quiver is a Hollywood fiction. The big surprise was the truth about Olympic archery. Glad someone came along and gave us the straight scoop
> 
> I'm just waiting for the day to see someone bouncing off the trees and running through our 3D course. You just know someone is going to try it.


Have you ever watched an idpa, 3gun, or run and gun shooting competition? Is it a less credible form of firearms competition than Olympic style target shooting?

BM


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

SteveB said:


> Is the season open or are you going to have to throw them back?:wink:


I thought the sword pic would really get um biting


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Holy dream sequence Batman!


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

One of the problems with the popularization of archery through cinema is a lot of beginners will buy any equipment they can get their hands on and expect immediate results. As we know archery is a little more complicated than that. Unless they find someone to help them they will get discouraged quickly.

A parallel is watching professional golf on TV, buying club and all the trappings of the pros and expect to play like them.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

phew!...


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

JParanee said:


> I thought the sword pic would really get um biting


Maybe beheading an Orc?


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Professional Wrestling meets Archery! This would make a good Abbot and Costello movie!


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

SteveB said:


> Maybe beheading an Orc?


Because I play Horde on Warcraft I take extreme offense to that, lol.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

I think the point Robert is trying to make is that war archery and hunting are two wildly different methods. Hunting, deer in particular, is much closer to being an assassin (since we are speaking humans here). While true than an arrow may not always incapacitate someone who is charging right at you I can assure that taking one to the genitals, guts, chest, neck, or face would incapacitate most men. They may not immediately die but, 9/10 will cease fighting which is the main point in ancient (and probably modern) warfare. I assume the same is largely true for the sword. While you certainly can use a big old broad sword to remove a mans head from his neck, if you remove one of his limbs and he stops fighting, that's just as good. That being said I am not a fantasy archer, historian, nor expert on the bow by any means. 

P.S. enraged mushroom eating vikings don't count.


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## Robert Courtland (Feb 17, 2015)

Probably the best hard data I have seen that relates to combat comes from the Police. They have studied their officers in crisis situations to find reaction times and the like and they have experience dealing with attackers who are both just hyped up on adrenaline and on much more powerful drugs. One of the reasons they are trained to kill rather than maim is that someone hyped up on cocaine may not notice some injuries and may keep coming. There is evidence some ancient armies used drugs. The Celts used woad which I've heard has some interesting effects.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Who doesn't love a good woad buzz  

All kidding aside there is certainly a lot the can be gathered from actual police shooting etc but they are not really archery related 

The more third world traveling you do the more edged weapon encounters you will come across 

Machete incidents etc 

But still a lot can be learned from dog and knife hunters and farmers when it comes to killing things with edged weapons more so than most modern day street accounts 

I have a lot of expierence with edged weapon training and have worked with Swat units and training groups and have a very good grasp on it 

I have a good friend that was stabbed at least 7 times and even with a popped lung defeated his attacker and than drove himself to the hospital 

It is amazing what some people and animals can push thru and survive

I still think that the best baseline that you can gather on how archery equipement kills is from bowhunters


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I guess the cleanest way to kill livestock is with one of those bolt guns (whatever they're called). We don't have one so we've killed lots of goats with a knife. Unless somebody asks, I'll just say that it takes some practice to make reasonably quick work of it.

I don't have any training in knife fighting but, from my experience killing things with knives, I'd guess that "stabbing" is the wrong thing to do. To stop an adversary quickly you'd have to cut enough muscle/tendon to render them incapable of fighting.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JParanee said:


> I have a good friend that was stabbed at least 7 times and even with a popped lung defeated his attacker and than drove himself to the hospital


Jeez. That must have been pretty horrible. Glad he made it.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Jeez. That must have been pretty horrible. Glad he made it.


So is he


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I can't believe I forgot about this...

This has no archery, but I think it is very pertinent regarding Fantasy Violence...

BTW, don't watch it if you are offended by either language, violence, or sexual content...


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Jparnee- Check out the book "dirty knife fighting from fulsome prison" (I think that's right it's somewhere in my book storage). Real cool read.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

jakeemt said:


> Jparnee- Check out the book "dirty knife fighting from fulsome prison" (I think that's right it's somewhere in my book storage). Real cool read.


Thanks Jake


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Jake 

Here is a video from the Blade show where Dom Raso retired Navy Seal Seal team 6 and new NRA Commentator talks about a new design of his 






He is doing edged weapons training now for the private sector as well 

Great guy 

True American Hero


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