# How to avoid the "Short Range Trap" and when to move back?



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ILOVE3D said:


> As another who is striving/struggling to move to the next evel and reading all of these threads and going over many replys I must be missing something here. On another thread when someone posted score at distance x then moved back to distance Y and posted new score which was of course not as good as closer target. He was told he had fallen into the "short range trap". How does one avoid this and know it's time to move back if you don't keep score and if it's by keeping score lets say 30X, are all 30 inside out X's or what's the criteria as to when one can and should move back. Understanding that every step back the groups are going to expand a bit I would guess. I know I really appreciate all of your input and suggestions and thank you for your time in doing so.


Step I. Work on the shot mechanics, work on form, work on bow tuning to make the bow as forgiving as possible.
Step II. Work on the mental game. Distraction techniques. ROCK solid focus. IN the Zone. Call it what you like. Unbreakable focus.

If you do not master the mental game, the concentration techniques,
if you do not learn how to TURN YOUR BRAIN off
you will forever hold yourself back.

Positive mental imagery.
Train your brain to expect NOTHING less than "perfection"...you must decide what that means to YOU.

Train your brain so that when the arrow nails the inside out X-ring,
your brain says HO HUM...done that a THOUSAND times....LITERALLY...hehehehehehehe.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Do not think about score (at all), as Jacob and others have mentioned a few times in past posts, you already *know* you're a 30x shooter. Focus only on your process. When the process is _completely_ natural, you will not question if it is time to move back or not--it will not matter. 

The first time you notice yourself thinking, I've got this in the bag, or just one more for a perfect round, you've fallen off the wagon and have to reclaim your zone. Score is nothing, it will catch up with your level of performance if you allow it. If you try to drive it, you fall into the trap. I tried to drive mine a little yesterday and fell apart a bit in the middle of my set. It was a very good lesson learned and the next time I am out, I will work much harder to remain focused on what I should be doing instead of the outcome. 

This is where the blood, sweat and tears are shed to progress to that next level---enjoy the journey. :wink:


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

ILOVE3D said:


> On another thread when someone posted score at distance x then moved back to distance Y and posted new score which was of course not as good as closer target.


When you are talking about the short game you should never be concerned with "score." It's not about how good you can "score." Until you can make your brain realize this you might as well keep shooting at the closer distance. Once you can honestly say your whole "being" is about making the strongest shot possible and not "score," then it's time to shoot at any distance you want. At that point you won't have to have someone tell you it's time now to shoot at ____ # of yards. You can shoot from any distance you want. 

You folks that hang indoor targets at 10, 12, 14, 15 yards and then post scores drive me inSANE! I would ask all of you, if you have studied this game at all, how many times have you read it's not about results (score,) it's about process? How many?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

ILOVE3D said:


> As another who is striving/struggling to move to the next evel and reading all of these threads and going over many replys I must be missing something here. On another thread when someone posted score at distance x then moved back to distance Y and posted new score which was of course not as good as closer target. He was told he had fallen into the "short range trap". How does one avoid this and know it's time to move back if you don't keep score and if it's by keeping score lets say 30X, are all 30 inside out X's or what's the criteria as to when one can and should move back. Understanding that every step back the groups are going to expand a bit I would guess. I know I really appreciate all of your input and suggestions and thank you for your time in doing so.


I use my short range time, breaking down my cycle and working on the individual parts of it.
today was peep to scope housing alignment, in other words my head and eye position. it was the only thing I was concerned about.
Sloppy head position and sloppy peep to scope housing alignment, equates to holes spread out at 20 yards and beyond. (Arrow spray).

I have hung those targets and shot them and even saved a couple, It didn't prove anything except I can shoot really good at 10 yards.
I found out the shot I developed was weak and wouldn't hold up at any other distance.


I don't keep many scores anymore, I just study my 20 yard holes and when the holes get small and close together in the middle of the yellow or white, the score always takes care of itself. I pay attention to what I have to do, to allow the arrow to land in the middle.

Once you know what you have to do, you can practice that and that alone, the arrow doesn't have any choice in the matter, it has to land in the middle.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

ILOVE3D said:


> As another who is striving/struggling to move to the next evel and reading all of these threads and going over many replys I must be missing something here. On another thread when someone posted score at distance x then moved back to distance Y and posted new score which was of course not as good as closer target. He was told he had fallen into the "short range trap". How does one avoid this and know it's time to move back if you don't keep score and if it's by keeping score lets say 30X, are all 30 inside out X's or what's the criteria as to when one can and should move back. Understanding that every step back the groups are going to expand a bit I would guess. I know I really appreciate all of your input and suggestions and thank you for your time in doing so.



well some of the problem is just because the arrow is in the center doesn't mean it was a good\great shot doesn't make a difference what yardage it is.
where people get a false sense of where they are at is how they think.
we can talk about up close shooting all day long with arrows being in the center but it tells you nothing

all you can control is your brain and your muscles which touch the grip and release that's it.worry about them 2 things


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Part of it not getting close enough to start; if the bale has to be off the end of your main to start then so be it(I'm not kidding; there have been times where 1yd is where things got taken to while addressing an issue). You need to be close enough that even weak shots don't miss- when you're this close to the bale there won't be an underlying "hope" of not missing, it simply doesn't happen. Once you found that starting distance for you hang a face and alternate between one arrow at the face and one arrow blank bale until every shot is feeling the same;timing should be the same, bow reaction the same, the whole 9 yards. Now start shooting close games scoring every end- it's super simple; you aren't missing at this point.... Anytime the shots start to hang up and your try to force them into the middle go back to shooting blank bale getting the correct feel and process back. Do not, I repeat, do NOT shoot bad shots up close- let down any shot that isn't right; if you don't break the habit up close it will kick your ass at 18m. 

The first distance is where you're going to be the longest; then you'll slowly move back as things are flowing and shots are rolling smooth. If issues come up, shots start hanging, you start getting careful, form issues arise, etc go back to blank bale and go a distance closer. You need to be diligent about sticking to your program and working to rewrite your shot to just happen; it takes time and effort and you'll have times where it seems like nothing just works. After a while you'll notice you've got 14 ends, 20 ends, 25 ends and haven't dropped an arrow outta the same hole- that's what you're going for.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Lazarus said:


> When you are talking about the short game you should never be concerned with "score." It's not about how good you can "score." Until you can make your brain realize this you might as well keep shooting at the closer distance. Once you can honestly say your whole "being" is about making the strongest shot possible and not "score," then it's time to shoot at any distance you want. At that point you won't have to have someone tell you it's time now to shoot at ____ # of yards. You can shoot from any distance you want.
> 
> You folks that hang indoor targets at 10, 12, 14, 15 yards and then post scores drive me inSANE! I would ask all of you, if you have studied this game at all, how many times have you read it's not about results (score,) it's about process? How many?


No, in the final analysis it is score. The process, and how well you execute it determines how well you score. Personally I find that if I do not score I shoot a lot smoother than if I score. So, if score is the hurdle that needs to be overcome, than score is important, no matter what distance you are shooting at. Here's my scores for today. They were shot at 7 yards.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

Larry Wise says it great 2 steps"#1 learn how to shoot a 10, #2 repeat step 1"

its that simple.

Have the urgency\discipline\concentration to execute the correct muscles which in turns fires the release, soft hand on grip is a deadly combination.

do you think the 60x,300 25-30x shooters are just flinging arrows?Every arrow pulled out of quiver should be nocked with the same intent..


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> So, if score is the hurdle that needs to be overcome, than score is important, no matter what distance you are shooting at.


I disagree. Complete trust in your process is the outcome that needs to be developed and lack of this trust, to whatever degree, it is the hurdle that needs to be overcome. The score will follow on its own once this trust is fully established--it has to; it is already there. The shooter just has to get out of the way and allow it to happen. 

Obviously I have not yet mastered this (not even close), but on the occasions I have been able to accomplish it, the shooting has simply been awesome and effortless. I now endeavor to change this from a chance occurrence to my normal routine....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the thing to remember, is that when the execution is done correctly..."perfectly"....the arrow ends up in the center. short bale shooting is for working on that "perfect execution".


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

EPLC said:


> No, in the final analysis it is score. The process, and how well you execute it determines how well you score. Personally I find that if I do not score I shoot a lot smoother than if I score. So, if score is the hurdle that needs to be overcome, than score is important, no matter what distance you are shooting at. Here's my scores for today. They were shot at 7 yards.


EPLC, this just came to me so take this for what it's worth but I am thinking that the idea here and in a tournament is to NOT think about score. If one just thinks about the total picture of making a perfect shot and not shooting until it is perfect then the score will reflect it. I know if I am shooting any round, Vegas, 5 spot or even a 900 round I do pretty good until that terrible moment I think about score and my next arrow instead of just thinking about making the shot perfect. I'm very likely off on this but it's what I'm thinking now. That's why I need to do lots more short range and just concentrate on making a fantastic shot. I don't need to keep score because I can look at my target in the end and see if I did everything perfect or not. If not I will have 10's outside the x and perhaps even some 9's. I'm going to try a new program and not keep score, just trying to do the perfect shots "inside out X's" and I'm going to start close until I can do it. After many many shots like nuts&bolts says I will move back say 2 yards and try to do it over again. If 2 yards is too much I will do 1 yard. It's going to take me quite a while to get back to 18 meters or 20 yards but heck, it's worth a try.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Score is the only metric we have in archery and while I agree with most of the "do's" and "don't's" posted concerning score, it isn't going away anytime soon. To assume you can just turn it off and shoot without thinking about it is just wishful thinking for most. Shooting without scoring is about as helpful as scoring without shooting. There also are many of the top pros that have stated that they always shoot for score. For me, shooting without scoring is just flinging arrows with no purpose. The object is to make the score less important, and to do that you have to shoot for score. I like Jacob's views on this. Shoot and score at close range until you are confident in the outcome then move farther out and do the same. Score then, and only then, can score become less significant.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Why fall into the "short range trap" to start with? People get caught because all they have on their mind is Indoor, Indoor, Indoor. Maybe they need a break from short range and 20 yards? 
I am not a Indoor shooter, but when working at the shop I didn't care for shooting 20 yards. No customers or anyone on the practice floor I shot through the observation window, 30 yards. At home, even today, I like 25 and 30 yards better than 20 yards. Try that X ring from 30 yards. Do it and then try 20 yards or closer. Yeah, looks big. 
Pic - I was trying NAP Twisters and Bohning 3" X vanes that day, 6 of each. I have shot a 5 spot 300 from 30 yards.
Are the above arrows deemed Indoor arrows? CXL Pro 150s with 90 gr points. And my present arrows, Muddy Outdoors HT3s with 80 gr points?


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

I have learned to keep score wo keeping score I total the others cards in running total if I am forced to keep the cards but I prefer to call and not know the score. Shot my first 300 back to back at Nats and did not know it till it was over


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

You can pretty much score a target after the fact and focus on trusting your shot it is essential. Not completely there for vegas rounds but there for nfaa 5 spot


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## AndyZed (Mar 27, 2011)

Score is the only metric we have in archery and while I agree with most of the "do's" and "don't's" posted concerning score, it isn't going away anytime soon. To assume you can just turn it off and shoot without thinking about it is just wishful thinking for most. Shooting without scoring is about as helpful as scoring without shooting. There also are many of the top pros that have stated that they always shoot for score. For me, shooting without scoring is just flinging arrows with no purpose. The object is to make the score less important, and to do that you have to shoot for score. I like Jacob's views on this. Shoot and score at close range until you are confident in the outcome then move farther out and do the same. Score then, and only then, can score become less significant.


Another way to look at it is, yes we shoot for score. But in order to get the best score, when behind the bow is to concentrate on making the best shot. The more perfect relaxed shots we make the better our score. It's our road to success


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

again, the short yardage game, is not to produce score, but to focus on perfecting execution. you have to keep in mind that the big picture, includes the learning that a let down, has as much value as a shot that is made "perfectly". including drills that let down on a shot that is not running perfectly, is as much a part of the short yardage game, as the concentration on perfect execution.
it seems that people loose sight of the purpose of short yardage drills, and think only that producing that "perfect game", is the goal.
I prefer to consider the amount of time i spend, or number of shots i make in front of the short bale, the key factor, not the score I produced. I believe that if you could research as much information that you could find, and analyze it honestly,....it would point to that aspect.
a perfect score is more or less a "by product", of good use of the time spent at the short bale. it's always nice to see those 5 little holes, in the center of the bulls eye, but that, is not the true value of short baling. so many guys think it is all that counts and to some extent, it is, because those holes represent 60 good executions, but you have to keep in perspective, that the X-ring, is equally easier to stay in and the purpose for the drill, is to make it easier to stay in the center and concentrate on execution, not just aiming. it just so happens, that the score produced, is the only indicator we have, to asses our progress at the short bale. the problem is that for many, dare i say ...most.... shooters, when they repeat that perfect score a few times, they think they have the deal licked. that first few perfect scores, is just the beginning of the main event. the maintenance of that execution requires many of those "perfect games".....that's the "real score", as far as the short bale is concerned.
that said, it is just as productive , if you would draw a bunch of small circles of any decent size, on a blank piece of paper, and shoot at them....you don't need to be seeing an "official target", to work on execution.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

imo dont get hung up on the perfect shot.its just has to feel right.the problem is when you get nervous its not gonna be perfect.its just gotta feel right and you really need to trust your relaxed bow hand and exectute the correct muscles for small movements to fire the release


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> again, the short yardage game, is not to produce score, but to focus on perfecting execution. you have to keep in mind that the big picture, includes the learning that a let down, has as much value as a shot that is made "perfectly". including drills that let down on a shot that is not running perfectly, is as much a part of the short yardage game, as the concentration on perfect execution.
> it seems that people loose sight of the purpose of short yardage drills, and think only that producing that "perfect game", is the goal.
> I prefer to consider the amount of time i spend, or number of shots i make in front of the short bale, the key factor, not the score I produced. I believe that if you could research as much information that you could find, and analyze it honestly,....it would point to that aspect.
> a perfect score is more or less a "by product", of good use of the time spent at the short bale. it's always nice to see those 5 little holes, in the center of the bulls eye, but that, is not the true value of short baling. so many guys think it is all that counts and to some extent, it is, because those holes represent 60 good executions, but you have to keep in perspective, that the X-ring, is equally easier to stay in and the purpose for the drill, is to make it easier to stay in the center and concentrate on execution, not just aiming. it just so happens, that the score produced, is the only indicator we have, to asses our progress at the short bale. the problem is that for many, dare i say ...most.... shooters, when they repeat that perfect score a few times, they think they have the deal licked. that first few perfect scores, is just the beginning of the main event. the maintenance of that execution requires many of those "perfect games".....that's the "real score", as far as the short bale is concerned.
> that said, it is just as productive , if you would draw a bunch of small circles of any decent size, on a blank piece of paper, and shoot at them....you don't need to be seeing an "official target", to work on execution.


I like this. 

The "not just aiming" noted. More than a few times, not a lot, those practicing at the shop would ask what the problem was, why they were off, because they "aimed perfect." More often than not they were torqueing the bow, but then some I watched just plain did not execute as they should.
Of the blank paper with drawn circles. At the shop I used any target on the wall, didn't care how bad it was shot up. I knew where the X ring was. At home I don't switch to a new target just because the X ring isn't there because I know where it is/was.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I know for myself some of the time even though "aiming hard" and just trying to make the perfect shot happen I sometimes realize I can't feel the same pressure on my lips from the kisser button and of course the result is a less than perfect shot due to the fact my anchor has changed ever so little. More than likely something is out of whack, dl or whatever it is I have to find the problem and make it right.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

AndyZed said:


> Another way to look at it is, yes we shoot for score. But in order to get the best score, when behind the bow is to concentrate on making the best shot. The more perfect relaxed shots we make the better our score. It's our road to success


Agreed... but in order to accomplish the task of thinking about process while shooting for score, you need to shoot for score... there is no other way. Sure you can shoot without scoring, as some have suggested, but from my perspective this is a wasted effort because as soon as you start scoring you find that you haven't fixed anything. I have shot short range for years... thousands of arrows, most of which has been done without scoring. While this was fun and my form has improved my actual shooting scores have not improved as a result. Unfortunately they don't give points for style in target archery.

Today I shot a 300 Vegas round from 15 yards and scored 297 20X. I've been doing this since last week and have been scoring between 297 and 299 consistently. After shooting this round from 15 yards I moved to 10 yards and shot 2 more rounds, both were 300's with 27X and 29X. I would love to be able to bring this out to real world distance but am not sure how to go about actually doing it?


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

It seems to me that the struggle you are having revolves around the fixation on score more than anything else. Yes it takes scores to win; but to get those scores on the line when they matter you need to shoot good shots. Working the close bale brings the level of shot up because all shots hit in the middle; you aren't gonna shoot careful when you know that everything is gonna hit an inner. 

When each shot breaks the same distance doesn't matter- they all go in the middle. It's getting to that point that takes time; taking big jumps back and fixating on score aren't how to get there..


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

N7709K said:


> It seems to me that the struggle you are having revolves around the fixation on score more than anything else. Yes it takes scores to win; but to get those scores on the line when they matter you need to shoot good shots. Working the close bale brings the level of shot up because all shots hit in the middle; you aren't gonna shoot careful when you know that everything is gonna hit an inner.
> 
> When each shot breaks the same distance doesn't matter- they all go in the middle. It's getting to that point that takes time; taking big jumps back and fixating on score aren't how to get there..


Yup, I've proved that...  By moving back to ten yards today I did pick up on an alignment issue that I corrected by taking two turns off the limbs. After shooting the two Vegas rounds from 10 yards I shot a couple of ends at 20 just to see if I could duplicate the feel I was getting at 10. The two ends were all 10's with 5 X's... the feel was there. I'm pretty confident out to 10 yards but I see a difference in the smoothness of my execution at 15. Even though I'm shooting a consistent 297-299 I'm not getting the smoothness that I know I'm capable of. What's the best way to transition out to longer yardages and by what increments should one move back? Thanks.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, it's real easy to get hung up on producing that score. we tend to justify the score because we... "should be shooting better,...it's only 10 yards" . the purpose of that close distance is to reinforce the matrix between aiming and the initiation of the release execution, while keeping good form. the closer distance makes it easier to sty in the x-ring, which makes initiating the release process easier....which allows us to concentrate on something else....like our form and shot execution as a whole.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

It's a two fold process to get things working; one is move back much slower, spending the necessitary time at each distance until things just flow and there isn't an overpowering drive of "shoot a 10". The second part depends heavily on how much you're willing to commit to the first part; if you'll put the time in start at 5-7yds and move back one or two yards at a time as things are flowing and working.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> Yup, I've proved that...  By moving back to ten yards today I did pick up on an alignment issue that I corrected by taking two turns off the limbs. After shooting the two Vegas rounds from 10 yards I shot a couple of ends at 20 just to see if I could duplicate the feel I was getting at 10. The two ends were all 10's with 5 X's... the feel was there. I'm pretty confident out to 10 yards but I see a difference in the smoothness of my execution at 15. Even though I'm shooting a consistent 297-299 I'm not getting the smoothness that I know I'm capable of. What's the best way to transition out to longer yardages and by what increments should one move back? Thanks.



sounds like your caught in the trap good... 

Griv said jumping back and froth from 10 to 15 to 20 yards will do you no good.
Griv said work back slowly and get used to the sight picture , learn how to deal with the float motion slowly.


When your up close the X ring takes up most of the space in your sight picture. and your float doesn't take up as much space.
it is easy to ignore the float and just shoot and most people can nut the center time after time. 

The Problem is:
As the target distance increases the X ring takes up less space in your sight picture and your float takes up more space in the picture.
so you see the float as bigger as distance increases.
So you don't like that, and you resort to trying to hold right on the X and then shoot. (command shooting in other words)
not smooth like you want it. 

Me, I work on making my float smaller so that it easier for me to ignore and shoot the shot smoothly like I do up close.
it takes time for everything to develop.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

As I stated in another thread earlier this month, "Me thinks you may be jumping off that 13 yards a little too quickly just to see how things "might be" at 20 yards. You should leave the 13 yds when you are sure how your 20 yard groups will be based on your efforts and results at 13 yds. JMO....." 

Take what happened today to heart and instill the patience necessary to solidify your float pattern and execution on the short bale--there's no rush, you have all the time necessary to become the archer you envision....That's just a recommendation.... :wink:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Bees said:


> sounds like your caught in the trap good...
> 
> Griv said jumping back and froth from 10 to 15 to 20 yards will do you no good.
> Griv said work back slowly and get used to the sight picture , learn how to deal with the float motion slowly.
> ...


 you gotta remember that what you see in your scope, as your float getting bigger, is only visual. the range of movement does not change as you move back. it is the essence of " trust your float".


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> you gotta remember that what you see in your scope, as your float getting bigger, is only visual. the range of movement does not change as you move back. it is the essence of " trust your float".


Actually, what you see is exactly what you get at longer distances, and the real short range trap is exactly that. It's all too easy to build false confidence at short ranges because a range of motion that looks really good at 5 yards can produce less than desirable results at longer distances. This is a mathematical certainty. Hey, if competitions were held at 10 yards I'd be on Archery TV


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## AndyZed (Mar 27, 2011)

EPLC said:


> Agreed... but in order to accomplish the task of thinking about process while shooting for score, you need to shoot for score... there is no other way. Sure you can shoot without scoring, as some have suggested, but from my perspective this is a wasted effort because as soon as you start scoring you find that you haven't fixed anything. I have shot short range for years... thousands of arrows, most of which has been done without scoring. While this was fun and my form has improved my actual shooting scores have not improved as a result. Unfortunately they don't give points for style in target archery.
> 
> Today I shot a 300 Vegas round from 15 yards and scored 297 20X. I've been doing this since last week and have been scoring between 297 and 299 consistently. After shooting this round from 15 yards I moved to 10 yards and shot 2 more rounds, both were 300's with 27X and 29X. I would love to be able to bring this out to real world distance but am not sure how to go about actually doing it?


Agreed, I shot at league last night and couldn't follow my advise, so I'm in the same boat.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

EPLC said:


> Actually, what you see is exactly what you get at longer distances, and the real short range trap is exactly that. It's all too easy to build false confidence at short ranges because a range of motion that looks really good at 5 yards can produce less than desirable results at longer distances. This is a mathematical certainty. Hey, if competitions were held at 10 yards I'd be on Archery TV


 We all could, but they are held at 18 meters, so that's why I spend time getting my float to be very,very,very, small at 13 yards, 
then I work on executing my shot without making the float any bigger. 
I just watch the float and shoot the shot, during my process, if I see the float getting bigger I let down, don't let it continue. 
this is different than my aiming exercise. 
my aiming exercise is done at 20 yards, this is where I ignore the float, zero in on the middle of the target,and shoot the shot.
two different things, for me to work on. they are similar but they are not the identical the same thing.

I am at two vary's right now working on my third very:smile:


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

This is good stuff guys...thank you.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Actually, what you see is exactly what you get at longer distances, and the real short range trap is exactly that. It's all too easy to build false confidence at short ranges because a range of motion that looks really good at 5 yards can produce less than desirable results at longer distances. This is a mathematical certainty. Hey, if competitions were held at 10 yards I'd be on Archery TV


Well, I can't quite agree on the mathematical certainty. I never shot anywhere good on the Vegas face, except one time, pure luck, and no I was not one of the score keepers. I thought the score keeper gave me the wrong score card, that unbelievable to me.
I never shot a 300 on the 5 spot until well after I took Champion in the 2004 IAA State Championship. I cleaned the 80 Field Walk Up and the Hunter 70 yard Walk Up and more than once. 80 yards, bull's eye 5.18" in diameter. I earned every ad-on bar for both Field and Hunter. 

Shooting 20 yards on the Vegas face is nothing compared to shooting 10, 11 or 15 yards. If you don't practice at 20 yards just how the hell are you going to know how shoot from 20 yards? It's damned different, for me at least. Something like EPLC, opposite I think, I am left handed, left eye dominant and shoot a bow right handed....

I don't shoot Indoor competition now and the Vegas face was nothing but dread. All this gab of Acceptable Float and Short Range Trap had me give it a go at. I just re-done my bow, starting over with different weights. Axis corrected on frame of sight and 2nd axis corrected. A little getting use to the bow 10 ounces lighter and maybe needing some as the bubble wants to wander a bit and maybe the peep needing to go up a hair. I'm getting use to it pretty quick though.

10/29/14, 11 yards, Vegas Face, maybe not the arrows for Indoors with 80 gr points. One dumb me shot, low 9. One almost 9 high shot, 33 in the 10 and X ring and no where near a ragged hole. While shooting this I adjusted vertical 6 clicks. And this shooting one shot at a time except for the 3 times I shot twice. 

10/30/14, 20 yards. I didn't have a float problem, but had issues with getting on target or rather how to shoot the sucker. (Hold on, going to check.) Intimidated some, I think, and jerky and still feeling my bow is "toy" light I had seven 8s, two right left and right from me being stupid. 7 were pretty much dead center low. I had fourteen 9s. Started figuring out how to a approach the center of the yellow I started hitting. I adjusted up 3 clicks after seeing my fiber pin bent a tad right. Some 40 shots blew out the X ring and a health section of the 10 ring. If I started in the yellow my shots went low and right. Coming a bit high and right and that center got punishment and enough punishment I blew through the bale and had to pry arrows out of the conveyor belt behind the bale. Now that I have sort of a planned course of getting to center the yellow I have it in my head that me executing better will give a lot of improvement. Yeah, and you blow out the center and the pin sure doesn't show like it should. And again, most all the time I shot one shot at a time, having to set each time.

Bow so dang light is does feel toy like. So use to it being heavy I'm still drawing and hitting the wall hard, bouncing the arrow on the rest where I never did before. 

No, not impressive, but I know I can do better now...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I can't quite agree on the mathematical certainty. I never shot anywhere good on the Vegas face, except one time, pure luck, and no I was not one of the score keepers. I thought the score keeper gave me the wrong score card, that unbelievable to me.
> I never shot a 300 on the 5 spot until well after I took Champion in the 2004 IAA State Championship. I cleaned the 80 Field Walk Up and the Hunter 70 yard Walk Up and more than once. 80 yards, bull's eye 5.18" in diameter. I earned every ad-on bar for both Field and Hunter.
> 
> Shooting 20 yards on the Vegas face is nothing compared to shooting 10, 11 or 15 yards. If you don't practice at 20 yards just how the hell are you going to know how shoot from 20 yards? It's damned different, for me at least. Something like EPLC, opposite I think, I am left handed, left eye dominant and shoot a bow right handed....
> ...


Thanks for sharing that. I wish more on this forum would put it out there for all to see. I certainly put mine out there.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Ok, you asked for it. I haven't put out mine out because I have a very long way to go. Went to the pro shop last night for a weekly shoot and they were shooting Vegas face. Darn, not what I wanted to do at this time. I took my supra ME and some 2712's. Scope was 4x with a dot and many times the dot did not want to stay in the yellow yet alone the 10 ring. Float was great but in the red at 12 oclock. Every time the dot would cover up the 10 ring I had to lower it to make sure the 10 ring was still there. Just put on a circle and took off the dot and going to try that at 5 yards today. There is a big international shoot tomorrow in Phoenix, 100 miles up the road and was going to go. Now I'm going to stay home and work on my 5 yard game. Not ready for the competition aspect at this time. *The dot covering up the 10 ring and needs to be moved to see it's still there, is this common and will the 5 yard (short yardage) practice take care of it?*


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ILOVE3D said:


> Ok, you asked for it. I haven't put out mine out because I have a very long way to go. Went to the pro shop last night for a weekly shoot and they were shooting Vegas face. Darn, not what I wanted to do at this time. I took my supra ME and some 2712's. Scope was 4x with a dot and many times the dot did not want to stay in the yellow yet alone the 10 ring. Float was great but in the red at 12 oclock. Every time the dot would cover up the 10 ring I had to lower it to make sure the 10 ring was still there. Just put on a circle and took off the dot and going to try that at 5 yards today. There is a big international shoot tomorrow in Phoenix, 100 miles up the road and was going to go. Now I'm going to stay home and work on my 5 yard game. Not ready for the competition aspect at this time. *The dot covering up the 10 ring and needs to be moved to see it's still there, is this common and will the 5 yard (short yardage) practice take care of it?*


Yes, very common. In fact I share this issue with you and this is why I use a big hole to shoot through.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

EPLC said:


> Yes, very common. In fact I share this issue with you and this is why I use a big hole to shoot through.


Ok, before changing out 4x lens from one with a dot about 1/8" to the circle I just went outside and shot my first inside out 300 60x but only from 5 yards. It's a start but what I found was my dot is too small and gets lost in the hole after say 4 or 5 shots in the same place relatively. Going to change the lens to one with a circle and try it a bit later. I know only 5 yards so certainly not bragging but it did feel good and was able to overcome the desire to peak. I did not feel the need to keep score because all were inside out X's. I just needed to keep track of the number of arrows I had shot. I can see many many more of these practices in the immediate future. I have pinned up two Vegas faces on my bale. One for the 5 yard then after I finished the 30x's I moved back to 20 and shot just 3 more arrows and of course, it humbled me again but I expected that. I also have a 3x lens and a 6x that I am going to play with at the 5 yards as well as experiment with different size dots. I am thinking that when shooting at 5 yards I will want a larger dot than the one I end up with shooting at 20 yards. Any suggestions on this or will one dot do all?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

have you ever considered something like this?


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I might be able to swing range time today- but the outcome is gonna be predicatble; little jittery on the float but 325-327... Maybe a little higher with how the setup is running.

3yds or 50m or 80yds- it all takes the same good shot to put one in the middle; learn how to shoot the good shot and distance doesn't matter. You shoot the same shot time and time and time again, when you get to a target face all you need to do it put your dot in the middle and you're gonna shoot the same shot that you have practiced thousands of times before. When you have your shot down float isn't so important; if I went and shot today I'd have a little jittery float but I'd shoot my x avg and more than like my big 10avg as well.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The targets I noted above, I used a 3/64" orifice and .019" fiber optic pin. I can't really say I had a float issue, actually the pin seemed sitting still with executing, but not executing smoothly the pin would pull off.

Only at 11 yards could I say my pin fit inside the 10 ring, most definitely not in the X ring. At 20 yards my .019" pin completely covered the 10 ring, but I didn't care as I could center to the yellow 9 and maybe a larger pin would be better at 20 yards.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Wow EPLC, those look huge and no, never thought of doing that but have thought of trying a lens that was frosted around the outside and only the inside was clear but probably a much smaller opening.

N7709K, hope your right about 3, 50 or 80 because the 5 yards was tough enough for total concentration keeping my float in the x or at least the center of the 10 for 30 shots. I am thinking it will get easier but like I said, for me all inside out x's even at 5 yards was mentally tough and a challenge. after the first 24 arrows I was thinking, "only total concentration for the next arrow, not thinking I still had 6 to go. One arrow at a time but was ready to take a break when it was over. I think the next will come easier but to what degree I do not know, only know I was able to do it the first time.

Sonny, I use a fiber for 3d so might try one for the Vegas face since I have changed out all my .010 to .019 since eyes are not what they once were. Also, have had torn and detached retinas in right eye and 3 surgeries to repair it. Vision is now 20/25 in the morning but it digresses as the day wears on. Going to try like you suggest also smaller peeps and not the clarifier I have used sometimes with the spot. Also like EPLC, over the hill somewhat being in my mid 60's. Still looking for the elusive 300 and whatever X happens on the Vegas face.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> Actually, what you see is exactly what you get at longer distances, and the real short range trap is exactly that. It's all too easy to build false confidence at short ranges because a range of motion that looks really good at 5 yards can produce less than desirable results at longer distances. This is a mathematical certainty. Hey, if competitions were held at 10 yards I'd be on Archery TV


 EPLC, 
your range of float movement (the actual amount your bow moves around during aiming) does not change as you move back. visually,...."perspective",.... as you've illustrated above, makes it appear larger in your sight picture, because as the target moves away, it appears smaller, but your aiming...your float....remains the same because nothing changes with your shot process, because the target is further away. that is why it is imperative to learn the value of "trusting your float" and run your shot, just the same as you would at short distance.
some people have issues with this, by trying to over control their sight picture, basically trying to reduce the float range,... proportionately,.... as the target gets smaller in perspective. this usually has the opposite result.....making the float larger and jerkier,....or in worse cases, promotes target panic, through internal indecision of letting the shot process run, or not, caused by the appearance of the float being larger, or by it being forced larger by the attempts to over control it.
the reduction of results from moving back, is from the exact issues I have just described.....not trusting your float, causes your internal process to mistrust what it sees in the sight picture....mechanically, everything is the same at any distance...it is only "perceived movement" that you see,... caused by perspective. do some research, if you think i'm wrong.
as far as the physical shot is concerned, mechanically, yes, it is that same perspective extension of angularity, that opens the groups as the target gets further away.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

ILOVE3D said:


> N7709K, hope your right about 3, 50 or 80 because the 5 yards was tough enough for total concentration keeping my float in the x or at least the center of the 10 for 30 shots. I am thinking it will get easier but like I said, for me all inside out x's even at 5 yards was mentally tough and a challenge. after the first 24 arrows I was thinking, "only total concentration for the next arrow, not thinking I still had 6 to go. One arrow at a time but was ready to take a break when it was over. I think the next will come easier but to what degree I do not know, only know I was able to do it the first time.


its something that takes time, repetition, and dedication. starting out it is very difficult to disconnect yourself from the ultimate end goal of shooting 30 arrows, or 60 arrows, etc and bring it into simple I just need to shoot arrows they'll let me know when i can stop. the more 30x games you shoot the less value you hold in a 30x; yes it is still a big thing, but when you shoot a 30x, or 45x, or 60x every time you see the face pretty soon it doesn't have much meaning. As you work the bale back you are still shooting for 30x games; there is never a trade off from 30x games to "i only want 300's", there may be a trade off for "I want to shoot 30 good shots" and thats fine, but you never stop wanting to hit 30x's. when you make it back to 20yds and are shooting its the same deal, as you strive for that 30x you don't realize that you no longer miss big 10's. a half shaft big 10 is "way gone"... 

in the pics the inner face was shot a 18m; all the rest are 8-10yds in my living room... at 18m it scored 299 inner and would have scored 329 if big 10 had been in play. The rest are all clean and would extrapolate out to my avg at 20yds. The vegas face with no arrows is after 15 ends, so the standard 450... the one with 22's in it was after a quick game and the blue face was the first of 3 games shot on that face... maybe 4; don't really remember... For me; i score close games how they would score at 18m- if i shoot a 30 arrow vegas game 100% same hole i/o of inner 10 thats gonna be a 29 or 30x; if i touch the inside of the line its gonna be a big 10, if it breaks the inner 10 line its a halfshaft or liner, if its more than halfway out- its gone... so i'll shoot a 30x at 8yds, look at the face and see that it was a 328 or 327 at 18m which fits my average


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> EPLC,
> your range of float movement (the actual amount your bow moves around during aiming) does not change as you move back. visually,...."perspective",.... as you've illustrated above, makes it appear larger in your sight picture, because as the target moves away, it appears smaller, but your aiming...your float....remains the same because nothing changes with your shot process, because the target is further away. that is why it is imperative to learn the value of "trusting your float" and run your shot, just the same as you would at short distance.
> some people have issues with this, by trying to over control their sight picture, basically trying to reduce the float range,... proportionately,.... as the target gets smaller in perspective. this usually has the opposite result.....making the float larger and jerkier,....or in worse cases, promotes target panic, through internal indecision of letting the shot process run, or not, caused by the appearance of the float being larger, or by it being forced larger by the attempts to over control it.
> the reduction of results from moving back, is from the exact issues I have just described.....not trusting your float, causes your internal process to mistrust what it sees in the sight picture....mechanically, everything is the same at any distance...it is only "perceived movement" that you see,... caused by perspective. do some research, if you think i'm wrong.
> as far as the physical shot is concerned, mechanically, yes, it is that same perspective extension of angularity, that opens the groups as the target gets further away.


Ron, I never said you shouldn't trust your float... I was referring to the physical shot. While I agree float "may" remain constant regardless of the distance shot, the point of impact will be farther out on the longer distances for every arrow that is not dead center... it has to be. The farther out you go, the farther out the point of impact will be. Jacob has it absolutely right in his explanation above regarding how he estimates the scores of his short range targets on what they would be at 18M. Since its Halloween the chart below may show this better.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

So the guide lines become:
number one: your 10 yard holes cannot be any bigger than 1.5 times your arrow diameter.
Number two: You have to be able to ignore your float and shoot the same smooth shot at 20 yards.

if you can preform these two things your chances of a 300 with good X count on a Vegas face go up.
if you got number one but your jerky with number two your chances go down.

the trap is: it is easy to think your ignoring your float at 10 yards because it is so small.
but when you move out to 20 yards you see the larger movement, it freaks you out and you find you cannot ignore it and shoot.
so you resort to point and shoot, command shooting, or some other kind of trying to time the shot with the sight picture.

I think that about sums it up.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Bees said:


> So the guide lines become:
> number one: your 10 yard holes cannot be any bigger than 1.5 times your arrow diameter.
> Number two: You have to be able to ignore your float and shoot the same smooth shot at 20 yards.
> 
> ...


the "trap" is only there if and when you rush the short field work. If you put the time in learning the correct shot and how to shoot a good shot there won't be getting caught up in float. Float only means something when you are a 300 shooter; if you cannot shoot consistent strong shots you cannot truly make the changes needed to bring float to a point where at 18m and 50m the distance your dot moves on the target face is the same. You can bandaid the issue and make it slightly better, but not fix it.

Look at the issue like this: you need to be able to shoot consistent strong shots as a prerequisite to upper level tuning and shooting. Getting caught up in float is more of an issue than anything else. Float happens; trust your shot and float isn't an issue... trust your float and shoot weak shots and its gonna leave you hanging.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

N7709K said:


> the "trap" is only there if and when you rush the short field work. If you put the time in learning the correct shot and how to shoot a good shot there won't be getting caught up in float. Float only means something when you are a 300 shooter; if you cannot shoot consistent strong shots you cannot truly make the changes needed to bring float to a point where at 18m and 50m the distance your dot moves on the target face is the same. You can bandaid the issue and make it slightly better, but not fix it.
> 
> Look at the issue like this: you need to be able to shoot consistent strong shots as a prerequisite to upper level tuning and shooting. Getting caught up in float is more of an issue than anything else. Float happens; trust your shot and float isn't an issue... trust your float and shoot weak shots and its gonna leave you hanging.


As I work this issue, I'm beginning to see how spot on this statement is. The foundation is a strong shot... everything else is in support of this.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

When you folks shoot close you are using full size targets? Some how till I looked closely at the pictures had missed that in the close work I use a scaled target. The visual float at full distance is then exactly the same also more accurately represents your real accuracy


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

joe, as I said above, the purpose of using a full size target up close, is to make it easy to stay in and be able to focus on other aspects of your shot. if you reduce the size of the target, you are putting your self in the same situation that you just came from. 
EPLC, of course,..... that is how angular perspective works. the point is that while both issues are centered around "perspective"...they are different in application. 
trusting your float, is an issue that relates to virtual appearance and has to be a "learned function of aiming", because what we see at 20 or 30 or 40 yards, we "learn", is not what happens at those distances, if we run our shot well,....while the physical aspect of this same perspective, is mechanically true, and no matter who well we run our shot, it's conditions are physically there every time and an unavoidable and inevitable result of the condition in which we run our shot. the better we realize that the sight has to move around, the easier it will be to produce good shots.
it is the realization that what we see, isn't necessarily what will happen, that actually reduces the size of the group. if we cannot realize this, over controlling the float, will be the result.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Looking at another angle ( no pun intended ):
Will going back to working on your short game, help/hurt IF you can't commit to ONLY the short game?
I.e. If you have shoots coming up, or a league coming up, do you feel it's better to leave the short game alone until you can commit to NOT shooting at "normal" range.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I believe generally it will significantly slow your intake of what you're trying to accomplish on the short bale. In the worst case scenario, it can negate much of the work you've put in on the short bale. 

I'd recommend for most people wishing to work through some shooting issues, to time this practice when you do not have important shoots to attend and would also recommend holding off on starting league until they've successfully dropped back to 20 yds/18m. However, there are some who can do both with great success--like there are those who can shoot compound and recurve equally well. 

Once you're confident with your shot at all of your distances, periodic use of the short bale every now and again to reinforce an issue is always a good thing. But then, it is used for just quick tune ups.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I’ve been working on my short range practice at 5 yards and not keeping score of course. Just trying to keep all of them (2712’s) in the x ring or inside out if you will. Two weeks ago the first 30 or so some seemed the easiest although it took lots of concentration for sure. From there it seemed to get harder keeping all of them inside out. There is NO room for loss of concentration for me even at the 5 yards or I’m looking at inside out but inside the 10 and not the X. It seems to be getting a little easier knowing when it is a good shot and letting down on those that are not. Also, I am realizing that I need to work on my endurance for that high concentration practice. After say 50 or 60 arrows I'm mentally whooped and it's time to quit. If I don't it's fewer and fewer inside out X's and more 10's with even a few of them not all inside. Only been at the short range practice format for a couple weeks now but I can see improvements although small compared to some others I'm sure.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't see or read of it throughout for the short game. Time between shots. Just because it's close one shouldn't get caught up in shooting one arrow after another. One should allow at least 15 seconds between shots. Carry it farther if you wish, take a break something on the order of competing.
I shoot one arrow and pull. 10 yards, even longer, isn't all that much and I need the exercise anyway. Just me, I think I get the benefit of "re-setting" for each shot, ingraining the correct stance if you will.....


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't see or read of it throughout for the short game. Time between shots. Just because it's close one shouldn't get caught up in shooting one arrow after another. One should allow at least 15 seconds between shots. Carry it farther if you wish, take a break something on the order of competing.
> I shoot one arrow and pull. 10 yards, even longer, isn't all that much and I need the exercise anyway. Just me, I think I get the benefit of "re-setting" for each shot, ingraining the correct stance if you will.....


Although I rarely shoot only one arrow at a time I make it a conscious effort to wait at least 15 seconds between shots especially the close range stuff. By doing that it's much easier doing it during competition. Several times during some of the shoots I attend I am the last one on the line. It seems that the vast majority of people shoot and within a few seconds they have their second arrow nocked and shooting it pretty fast as well and on and on.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

For the past several weeks I've been making an attempt to focus on my shot and not score. I believe I'm seeing some positive results after taking a few initial steps backward. I've also come to the conclusion that shot range training doesn't work well for me for whatever reason. I'm better off shooting at 20 yards when training for 20 yards. While I agree that blind baling may be the solution when developing a "specific" portion of your physical shot process, as far as an aiming, steadiness or range of motion drill it is useless for me. It just makes me sloppy.

Also, with regard to blind baling: If your form and/or process is poor and you bring that flawed form/process to the bale you will burn that poor form/process even deeper into your subconscious. I strongly suggest you learn it before you burn it.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

EPLC said:


> Also, with regard to blind baling: If your form and/or process is poor and you bring that flawed form/process to the bale you will burn that poor form/process even deeper into your subconscious. I strongly suggest you learn it before you burn it.


This is where a very brief but specific written "shot process" list can help. And this list can/must be fluid so it can evolve over time, maybe even daily depending on what in the process you are working on. 

Glad to hear you're seeing some improvement. VERY glad to see you are forgetting about score. Not glad to see you are turning your back on the short bale.  I don't believe the (short) bale is something that works for some and doesn't for others. I'm convinced it's kind of like a founding principle, it remains the same always, it works for everyone if they use it properly. :02:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

You can lead a horse to water..... Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath, step back and allow the person skin their knees a little and learn the lesson on their own.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> You can lead a horse to water..... Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath, step back and allow the person skin their knees a little and learn the lesson on their own.


I've been at the water hole and drank the cool aid for years. I've shot literally thousands and thousands of arrows from 7-13 yards without any measurable improvement in my game. I believe there is a purpose for short range training (see post above) but it just hasn't helped me to build a better hold... it just makes me sloppy and this sloppiness rears its ugly head each time I move back. I then have to re-train at the longer distance. While this may be the cure to world hunger in the eyes of many, we are all different. I personally find shooting at longer distances builds better form and stability for me. 

What I have learned from all of this is that scoring while training is a self defeating element that had to be eliminated. Now that I've made that step I'm better able to focus on my shot execution, identify the good, the bad and the ugly... and I am making progress.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, sometimes it's best to shoot/practice what the actually distance is. That "error" just might show up. Taking that error back to short distance just might lead to a correction.

I look back to my last French tuning of my target bow earlier this year. Seems I sucked at 10 feet compared to 30,31,32 and 33 yards. It just seems there is no reason why I can't shoot a ragged hole at 10 yards. Brian probably gets in the way..... I have shot ragged holes before and seems this dumb hype on the Vegas face brought about maybe trying too hard and I can't get over it.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Lazarus said:


> This is where a very brief but specific written "shot process" list can help. And this list can/must be fluid so it can evolve over time, maybe even daily depending on what in the process you are working on.
> 
> Glad to hear you're seeing some improvement. VERY glad to see you are forgetting about score. Not glad to see you are turning your back on the short bale.  I don't believe the (short) bale is something that works for some and doesn't for others. I'm convinced it's kind of like a founding principle, it remains the same always, it works for everyone if they use it properly. :02:


I do have a shot process that I've been refining and this has helped more than anything I've done in some time. And for the record I haven't turned my back on the short bale, I just don't expect a lot from it and have to be careful not to do it too much because I loose my range of motion in the process. I really don't have a lot of form or execution issues, my biggest issue is my hold which can impact everything else. Until recently I've worked on not paying attention to it rather than trying to improve it. Now that I'm actually working on it, I'm seeing some improvement. Removing "score" from my workouts has helped because I now can pay attention to what's going on rather than what's going to happen. Last night on my league it was 450 Vegas night and I worked very hard to keep my mind on making the good shot that I have identified. It's still very hard to do this as other score related thoughts tend to creep in such as, "I want to shoot a 30" and the like. As a result I started out kind of tight and my execution was kind of choppy. I dropped 8 points in the first half and started off the second half with a 10/9/9. Still, everything was in the gold and most of the 9's were not far out. I started out the 2nd half with a 10/9/9 but as I continued my shots became smoother and my confidence became stronger and I only dropped 2 points to finish out the last 6 ends. From a mental game perspective the outing was a success as I was able to confine my thoughts to the "now" and not to the result. I fully expect to get better at this as I go forward...


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## Jfk742 (Oct 13, 2013)

This may be a bit off topic but I have recently really gotten after visualizing my shot process. Given the short days and lack of convenient places to shoot I have become heavily reliant upon it. The cool thing is while can see and "feel" the shot happening and "watch" the arrow hit the x, it is the only thing I am concentrated on, unlike physical practice where I'm constantly battling my overwhelming concern of sticking the 10 ring and as a result having trouble relaxing.

Last week I had no ability to physically practice so I really stepped up the visualization part of my practice. I do everything I would normally do but without a bow in hand, stance, breathing, erasing the tension in my bow shoulder right before raise my arm, blah, blah ,blah. Went out on Tuesday for Vegas league night and shot a 298 18x, my best ever, practice or league. ( average is 294 15x). My normal routine is to practice 4 times a week do some blank bail, occasionally use visualization. I think I need to approach the way I think about practice a little differently given that result.


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