# Draw length - Hinge speed - X count



## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Personally , I can add almost a solid inch to my Dl just on release speed -

Discuss


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

What's to discuss....? You're obviously a shooter that pulls very hard into your cable stops, thus "overdrawing" the bow and gaining DL... 

Everyone who pulls into the stops (on a cable stop bow) gains in DL to some degree....so, the slower the release, the harder you're able to pull without the release going off, the more you're able to overdraw the bow...it's also a good way to increase holding weight if you're maxed out on the cams/cables... :wink:


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

montigre said:


> What's to discuss....? You're obviously a shooter that pulls very hard into your cable stops, thus "overdrawing" the bow and gaining DL...
> 
> Everyone who pulls into the stops (on a cable stop bow) gains in DL to some degree....so, the slower the release, the harder you're able to pull without the release going off, the more you're able to overdraw the bow...it's also a good way to increase holding weight if you're maxed out on the cams/cables... :wink:


Was hoping for pros and cons and other what nots : How toos etc ..
I guess the truth is what you are saying.


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## Finq (Jul 12, 2009)

I don't pull harder the longer I aim...
How do you keep your posture and anchor if you pull 1" into the wall? You have to either anchor before you start pulling harder or right when the release fires, both would seem very inaccurate and hard to repeat to me... ?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

have you ever shot a hoyt target bow with spiral x cams that wall is solid and letoff can be adjusted lower ? spiral x cams work very well with a hinge ,I do wish that I would have started using spirals years ago.the only thing about spirals is you do need to know your correct draw length,spirals are a fast cam and very smooth.good luck


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Finq said:


> I don't pull harder the longer I aim...
> How do you keep your posture and anchor if you pull 1" into the wall? You have to either anchor before you start pulling harder or right when the release fires, both would seem very inaccurate and hard to repeat to me... ?


 This is one of those hard to put in words things for me.
I am not referring to pulling any harder at a certain stage of the cycle . 
Its pretty much a given that if your fiddle with your DL your gonna need to adjust your hinge as well. Well same can be said if you adjust your speed in your hinge. By adjusting the moon we are changing the actual amount the release needs to rotate before it pops, thus changing the angle of the release when it pops or where it physicaly sits in your hand.
More than a hot or cold , fast or slow , I am looking for a very specific , breaking point ( place - Feeling - finger ) 
That said , you can get even more precise when dialing in your draw length and speed the speed in your hinge in harmony.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

dua lam pa said:


> Personally , I can add almost a solid inch to my Dl just on release speed -
> 
> Discuss


You must have very good alignment in order to pull that far past the stops. When I try pulling past a certain point I pull myself off center or the bow starts to torque in a counter-clockwise direction (I'm a lefty).


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

your not actually "changing your draw length", or changing the "speed" of your release" when you change the position of the moon in a hinge. you are changing the position of your release hand to be more efficient at producing the rotation the hinge needs to fire. that hand position should be such that your elbow is directly behind the nock, or maybe just slightly, outside of the nock. this produces the break at such a time that your elbow is directly in line with the path of the arrow. if it breaks sooner, you pluck the release off the string and cause some horizontal nock travel that influences the arrows flight, and if it breaks later, you'll have trouble getting the rotation needed to get the shot to break.
but either way, timing the noon does not change your draw length it only changes the angle your rotation starts and finishes at, in your execution.....you have to optimize your draw length to set the most efficient use of your back tension, along with the most efficient noon position, to combine into what rotates the release the most consistently for your shooting and that the shot breaks when your elbow is aligned with the path of flight.. that "most efficient draw length", can be a matter of only a twist or two of the bow string, but surely not an inch worth of difference. if you can adjust that much, you haven't established what are your most efficient elements of anchor and attaining release rotation, yet.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dua lam pa said:


> Personally , I can add almost a solid inch to my Dl just on release speed -
> 
> Discuss


Set Hinge THIS SLOW. HT3.



Use loop, THIS LONG.



Tune for Group Tightness.



Adjust loop length....longer...shorter...whatever it takes, to get results.
Adjust Hinge Speed...faster....slower...whatever it takes, to get results.

Setting the Hinge STONE COLD,
can reinforce a particular alignment...for the better

Setting the Hinge STONE COLD,
can reinforce an AGGRESSIVE shot....if you are not aggressive in the shot, the release will not fire.

So,
how cold is "STONE COLD"?

Much much colder than normal,
where if you are NOT aggressive in the shot,
the release will not fire.

You know how to reach me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

setting the release cold, forces the release process to be deliberate. a deliberate release execution , is planned out where there are no chances for the shot to be impulsive and out of control. simply put, it forces you to observe all of the elements that produce a good shot. it is the learning of those elements that keeps your shot consistent and TP free by having none of the distractions associated with improper draw length, inconsistent anchor and inconsistent rotation starting point.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

ron w said:


> setting the release cold, forces the release process to be deliberate. a deliberate release execution , is planned out where there are no chances for the shot to be impulsive and out of control. simply put, it forces you to observe all of the elements that produce a good shot. it is the learning of those elements that keeps your shot consistent and TP free by having none of the distractions associated with improper draw length, inconsistent anchor and inconsistent rotation starting point.


 Truth -well said sir-


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## ctarcher (Jun 7, 2002)

I understand the advantages of a slower, instead of faster, or hotter, release. I'm still trying to get my head around the 1" increase in DL and hinge speed. It seems to me that you are setting the release way to sloooooow or your form must be changing considerably for that amount of DL change.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

ctarcher said:


> I understand the advantages of a slower, instead of faster, or hotter, release. I'm still trying to get my head around the 1" increase in DL and hinge speed. It seems to me that you are setting the release way to sloooooow or your form must be changing considerably for that amount of DL change.


invert , what I have stated - 
Keep your release set where it is add 1/2" draw length and tell me what happens -
Is the release firing in the same spot ? 
Changing physical DL requires adjustments in your release as well 

My Dl is just under 31" - I currently prefer shooting about 1/4 " short on my actuall DL, with an extreamly slow release - and ripping the bow apart - my groups are tighter than they have ever been - however my shot window has been cut in half , and I can not hold as long on the dot -
I have gone from 11- 12 seconds to about 6- 7 seconds - with the optimal timing being 5-6 at this DL for me - 

In a round about manner - adjust your release when you adjust yor DL if your looking for optimal results -


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## ctarcher (Jun 7, 2002)

I understand the last sentence. 

I couldn't understand why you would want to draw the bow another inch to get the hinge to trip instead of changing the firing-angle of the hinge. 

I also don't quite understand why drawing the bow HARD into the wall would decrease group size. My thinking is - the DW increases very fast (for even a mm in length) as a function of DL past the stops. I would think that there would be an increase in group size because it would be difficult to precisely have the hinge trip at the same DL and weight each time.

Measuring group size as a function of firing-angle is what nuts&bolts said. 

Measuring group size as a function of DL (this case a loop and not the bows DL) is what nuts&bolts said. Well said I may say.

Better group size is what really matters, so if it works for you then I maybe wrong.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

"I couldn't understand why you would want to draw the bow another inch to get the hinge to trip instead of changing the firing-angle of the hinge. " - not that I wanted to , that I can , Its easier for me to get out of the box and take things to an extream to learn 

"I also don't quite understand why drawing the bow HARD into the wall would decrease group size. My thinking is - the DW increases very fast (for even a mm in length) as a function of DL past the stops. I would think that there would be an increase in group size because it would be difficult to precisely have the hinge trip at the same DL and weight each time. -- please explaine how drawing a bow soft into the wall is any more accurate - espically if it is to the point where you creep at times ? I guess for me a strong aggressive 100% is easier to reproduce than relaxed 53.2 % shot ? 

By firing angle , I presume Alan is talking about " release " speed ? or the angle in which the hinge pops ? - very much what I am speaking of as well 

One can very easily change the "apparent " drawl lengths thru variouse methods , stance , grip , elbow, D loop , etc ... and hinge speed -


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the will, for most, be a range of draw lengths that will work decently. this has to be considered and a happy medium established that is the product of physical draw length, release angle that breaks the shot, as your draw elbow comes directly in line with the arrow's path and sear engagement or "speed", of the release's rotational requirement to break the shot off.
the key to this, is to establish exactly the right draw length as a starting point for the shot execution and develop a reliable and comfortable anchor that is repeatable.
as you get close to the "exactly right draw length", it comes down to a twist or two of the bow string to find the exact length, as you get more accomplished with your shot execution, that "exact" spot will get more critical and become more important, to the point of being the "main character" to the overall success of your shooting, because it is this detail, the fact that every shot starts from exactly the same comfortable spot, that is the foundation for your shot execution's reliability. 
it's important to establish a routine and process that is repeatable and reliable, as far as the anatomical activity that produces the shot, your body will only work the best/most efficiently, in one small range of movement, and you have to understand how to adjust the bow to best accommodate that range.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I wanna just haul back and shoot....... I've never been able to do this since going to a thumb and hinge....


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## ctarcher (Jun 7, 2002)

Ron

That's what I was talking about. Not so eloquently maybe but the DL, hinge firing-angle (speed), posture,.... needs to the constant.

Trying to pull the limbs off or the, LOL, 52.3% shot, what ever that means, can't be very exact and therefore shouldn't give the best results for grouping. 

Again - results speak louder than words.

Sonny,

How's that working for you?


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

ctarcher said:


> Ron
> 
> That's what I was talking about. Not so eloquently maybe but the DL, hinge firing-angle (speed), posture,.... needs to the constant.
> 
> ...


your over thinking it


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ctarcher said:


> Sonny, How's that working for you?


I can't remember exactly when I switched over to a thumb....winter of 2006, indoor season was approaching. I had the TRU BALL Talon head thumb release with pink fire (too sensitive so never used it). Head was adjustable back then, but people didn't know it. You had to loosen the side plate, set the head, tighten plate back down. Shot it in some indoor practice and shooting the two IAA Aggregates, combined 5 Spot and Vegas face. Actually, I won the Aggregate Award for Senior Adult Free Style and took 3rd in the IAA State Championship. Still, I had this prep thing, get just so, anchor just so, aim, blah, blah....Got this ST3 (it broke) and it was replaced with a ST360 by Danny Evans. Now, for 8 years I've used a thumb release and it's the prep thing. I can't say either of my thumb releases give me any more accuracy than my Scott Mongoose. In fact, I've shot higher scores in 3D with my Scott. Don't get me wrong, since switching to a thumb release I've placed and won a bunch. I've got a back up ST360 in four finger - new-in-box, $50, I thought it a great deal - shoots just fine.

With my Scott Mongoose single caliper index release I drew back, anchored and fired without thought. Never worried about anything, grip, bow arm, make sure I was anchored properly or my release arm just so. Just hauled off and shot. Still today I use my Scott for hunting, just haul back and shoot - "picture" is right there, arrow is gone, dead deer....37 since year 2000. 

I use to play when using my Scott index. I got caught up in the BS of "You'll shoot better" or I'm not a shooter if I don't use a thumb or hinge. Seems I've never played with my thumb releases. It's serious all the time. And I can't pick up anything but my thumb releases.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

Pete53 said:


> have you ever shot a hoyt target bow with spiral x cams that wall is solid and letoff can be adjusted lower ? spiral x cams work very well with a hinge ,I do wish that I would have started using spirals years ago.the only thing about spirals is you do need to know your correct draw length,spirals are a fast cam and very smooth.good luck


I just purchased a hoyt vantage elite with spiral x's, I made myself learn to shoot a hinge this year. I was a trigger shooter using a diamond outlaw for my target bow. the diamond has 80% letoff. I tried to learn the hinge last year with the outlaw, no way, not nearly enough holding weight. I have found that the spirals, lower letoff, and the hoyt vantage have definitely played a big part of me being able to shoot a hinge. Im still hovering around 295-297 with 40 + x's, but I will get there.

solid wall, less letoff, pull firm into it using back muscles (rhomboids, specifically), but not so much you gain 1", it would be hard to be super consistent. It's a natural tendency to pull harder, and execute faster if you know you are shooting well and could possibly win a big tournament. 

if you can be super consistent without hurting your performance by pulling so hard you get an 1" extra, then shoot what works for you. 

I notice that when I am shooting really well, I get a little arm slap, and lean a little back. I don't know if its just natural, or what, but I don't make an effort to do so.

gotta love the vantage elite though, and the hinge has made me a better trigger shooter as well.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have learned over the years that when I pick up a different bow that has a slightly different draw length or d loop length that my hinge speed needs to be changed, I shoot the same bow all the time because I don't have different competition bows so for me all of my hinges are set to it. With my hunting bow I use my tru ball ultra sweetspot and it is cool because you come to anchor and settle in and then flip the switch and where ever your hand is at the time you flip the switch on any bow you are guaranteed the exact same amount of rotation to fire the sweetspot.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Donjr721 said:


> I just purchased a hoyt vantage elite with spiral x's, I made myself learn to shoot a hinge this year. I was a trigger shooter using a diamond outlaw for my target bow. the diamond has 80% letoff. I tried to learn the hinge last year with the outlaw, no way, not nearly enough holding weight. I have found that the spirals, lower letoff, and the hoyt vantage have definitely played a big part of me being able to shoot a hinge. Im still hovering around 295-297 with 40 + x's, but I will get there.
> 
> solid wall, less letoff, pull firm into it using back muscles (rhomboids, specifically), but not so much you gain 1", it would be hard to be super consistent. It's a natural tendency to pull harder, and execute faster if you know you are shooting well and could possibly win a big tournament.
> 
> ...


thanks for taking the time


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