# Finding The Best Let-off Setting



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm having trouble getting a steady sight picture and wonder if my let-off is set too high. On my 50 pound draw it is dropping off to somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 to 12 pounds, according to the best scale I've got.

Will increasing the holding weight help with achieving a steady sight picture?

Comments will be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What bow, the Shadowcat or Scepter V? Just asking... If so, positive draw stops change holding weight, but also change draw length. Long ata, moving the stop one way or the other shouldn't make that much change on draw length. Mark draw stop and move it for more holding weight. I took the rubber cover off my Shadowcats draw stops and used a fairly sharp lead pencil. Loosed draw stop and moved it enough to cover up the pencil line. Not enough, another pencil line and move again. I think I got my Shadowcats to 15 or 16 pounds holding weight (55 pound draw weight). And I had to hang on because the bows were in the "want to go mode."

Problem with positive limb stops... The wall is rock hard. You can't really "relax" and human nature is to hold and holding builds and unsteadiness comes. Seems the Martin single draw stop was kind of forgiving compared to both cams having draw stops on my Pearson. 

Discussion today at this club. Moving the limb stop so a "mush" feeling is there, but getting on the wall gave firing of the release. This was a PSE shooter talking.


----------



## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Awesome topic ! 
Holding weights magic number was at " 17 lb. "... last year -

Im shooting off 23- 27 lb at the moment - 
why ?
Holding weight will help define your shot timing .
if your not strong enough to hold 25lbs using " the correct back muscles " yes it will effect your sigh picture -
More holding weight = a quicker break at full draw 

Personally I prefer as much holding weight as I can possibly shoot for a clean 200 shots at 10 yards - 200 clean Xs in a vegas face at 10 yards - ( good shots mentally and physically ) emphasis on mentally - if your creeping , or thinking about creeping , too much weight - it comes naturally actually , just think in theese terms when sitting up 
personally more weight keeps me in my shot - If I get nervouse game day Im upping the poundage to heighten my awareness - keep inside my shot - the added weight will slow me down - force me to think thru my shot sequance -----

I have one bow at 23 lbs now and one at 26lbs - let off at about 55 % ish --- 

The more weight I hold the faster and cleaner my shot breaks - its a matter of figures , how much vs how long 

If you have too much weight you tire early and easy - 

if you are a solid 300 vegas shooter , start looking at your timing and what works / 

many people suggest adjusting your release speed / I will suggest working only let off / holding weight -

screw adjusting the amount of rotation in your release , you can be there forever

My theory on holding weight comes from go fast sports , very seriouse consiquence go fast sports ...

To preform your absolute best you need be on the edge , we trian just inside our edge , preforming to perfection day in , day out , without pushing the absolute outter limits of our mental and physical capabalities - train to perfection -
Competation day step out of your comfort zone - get on the edge 
Competation is where winners find inner trust in their training - 


Its does no good to go really fast and not keep ones head still and eyes focused as far out front as far possible !

Sonny approached the topic from the other end - very valid indeed


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

This is a very good topic and timely as I am also searching for the majic holding weight number that will provide the most steady hold and subsequently sight picture. I'm working off a franken bow for my outdoor set up and as such have no specs to go from, I know the base cam I have on it will provide 75% letoff and at 41# DW, that produces a very low and unsteady holding weight. 

So, off come the little rubbers, the cables are tweaked, and stops moved, so now I can eek out a more respectable, but not optimal, 69-70% holding weight. Hold is steadier, and as balls has already mentioned, the shot is a little quicker and cleaner than at 75%, but the overall sight picture is still lacking. 

If I could find some combination that would produce 65% holding weight at 41# DW, I'd be a very, very happy camper.....The hunt continues....lol!


----------



## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

montigre said:


> This is a very good topic and timely as I am also searching for the majic holding weight number that will provide the most steady hold and subsequently sight picture. I'm working off a franken bow for my outdoor set up and as such have no specs to go from, I know the base cam I have on it will provide 75% letoff and at 41# DW, that produces a very low and unsteady holding weight.
> 
> So, off come the little rubbers, the cables are tweaked, and stops moved, so now I can eek out a more respectable, but not optimal, 69-70% holding weight. Hold is steadier, and as balls has already mentioned, the shot is a little quicker and cleaner than at 75%, but the overall sight picture is still lacking.
> 
> If I could find some combination that would produce 65% holding weight at 41# DW, I'd be a very, very happy camper.....The hunt continues....lol!


There's a whole other way to get what ur searching for. Mass weight ratio to holding weight. Being a female can have benefits at lower holding weights as long as the ratio is right. I can make it work for you but you have to be flexible in stabilizer and weight choices. 

Blue X


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Blue X said:


> There's a whole other way to get what ur searching for. Mass weight ratio to holding weight. Being a female can have benefits at lower holding weights as long as the ratio is right. I can make it work for you but you have to be flexible in stabilizer and weight choices.
> Blue X


You are right and this is something I was going to tinker with a little this week as I believe my mass weight ratio is actually quite high for the holding weight I am able achieve with this particular bow. Now that my local outdoor season is over, I will have to play with the weights some and see what that does to the sight pattern. If it works, my shoulder will be ever so grateful!! Anyway, I'd really like to get this bow properly set up before next season and nationals--I just built the bow last month, so it's gotten a late start and has a bit of tweaking that still needs to be done to it. :wink:


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Blue X said:


> There's a whole other way to get what ur searching for. Mass weight ratio to holding weight. Being a female can have benefits at lower holding weights as long as the ratio is right. I can make it work for you but you have to be flexible in stabilizer and weight choices.
> 
> Blue X


As a starting point, what might be a suggested ratio? (Male senior citizen)


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dua lam pa said:


> Awesome topic !
> Sonny approached the topic from the other end - very valid indeed


I just happen to know Carlos has the bows I mentioned


----------



## WilliamsTD (Oct 14, 2004)

I found this statement in some of my saved data and also an old post from Javi: Most Pro's holding weight is 3.5 to 5 times their mass weight. 

Bows mass weight
Draw weight
and Hold weight 


JAVI

It's really a trial and error sort of thingy... I shoot different holding weights and peak draw weights for different venues and my bow mass weight and stabilizer configuration will vary accordingly... 

(Numbers are approximate) 

My 3-D bow… 9lbs, 65 lbs holding 26lbs

My indoor bow.. 9.5 lbs, 53 lbs holding 24lbs

My Field bow 8.5lbs, 59 lbs holding 24lbs.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> I just happen to know Carlos has the bows I mentioned


Haha...I thought you were going psyhic on us..... :wink:


----------



## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

As always no one way to tackle this issue. I like 20-23# of holding weight in the 20-23# range. With that being said I tend to get a better sight picture with the higher holding weight with heavier bow esp. when I have a back bar that is heavy and short. ( field and 3d set up). My indoor set up I use longer rods with not as much on the bars for that set up I get a better picture with less holding weight. No real formula here other than trial and error.


----------



## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

How does one achieve holding weight up on the new bows that spout 75% let off. My Dominator set at max 57# is only about 15 at full draw. Would setting draw one length longer but leave draw stops in proper peg hole or put draw stops in lower length hole than draw length setting?


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

montigre said:


> Haha...I thought you were going psyhic on us..... :wink:


Sonny knows all my archery secrets...almost. :mg:


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> Sonny knows all my archery secrets...almost. :mg:


He runs with a rough bunch of Old Geezers  I'm not old enough I guess, to be called a Old Geezer, by their standards. I have to wait for one of them to pass on so I can buy into their class. Yeah, buy! I'm going to get hold of Mike T. and get the truth of the matter.


----------



## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

PSE me cams with the dl mod set one slot longer will yield 62-64% depending on cams starting orientation and how your cables are built. 




montigre said:


> This is a very good topic and timely as I am also searching for the majic holding weight number that will provide the most steady hold and subsequently sight picture. I'm working off a franken bow for my outdoor set up and as such have no specs to go from, I know the base cam I have on it will provide 75% letoff and at 41# DW, that produces a very low and unsteady holding weight.
> 
> So, off come the little rubbers, the cables are tweaked, and stops moved, so now I can eek out a more respectable, but not optimal, 69-70% holding weight. Hold is steadier, and as balls has already mentioned, the shot is a little quicker and cleaner than at 75%, but the overall sight picture is still lacking.
> 
> If I could find some combination that would produce 65% holding weight at 41# DW, I'd be a very, very happy camper.....The hunt continues....lol!


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FOR ME, it has always been that a higher holding weight meant I could hold steadier with a LIGHTER mass weight, and the shot breaks way more cleanly, too. Of course, the shot seems to break "easier" when you are holding steadier because you are in the correct FDP, holding the "transfer" correctly, and thus the site steadies down.
FOR ME...too much mass weight creates all sorts of problems and obviously, I fatigue a lot faster too. The higher holding weights don't seem to bother me as much, because again, obviously, with higher holding weights the shot breaks more quickly because the site settles down better.

I don't like HIGH mass weight and LOW holding weight whatsoever. Anything less than around 16 pounds of holding weight, and regardless of the mass weight and I suck worse than normal; way worse, in fact.

7,10, 12, 14 pounds of holding weight just will NOT work for me at all; even if I get that mass weight up there in the 8-10 pound range.

I won't buy another bow that has 70% or more of letoff; just isn't going to happen. Heck with that nonsense. There are bows out there that give you OPTIONS of 60% to 65% letoff...and those are what I'll look at first. Got rid of a bow that was 75% stated but the only way to get to that point was to set the stops right on the verge or "front" of the valley and if I let up even slightly, the sucker would rip the release right out of my hand and the shot would go into la-la land. Glad I got rid of that bow! LOW holding weights are just not for me; I no longer hunt and even when I did bow hunt, I never had a situation where I EVER needed to "hold forever." The longer you hold...the less likely you are to make a solid, strong, accurate shot anyway.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, your set up should be established around the holding weight that works best for you. peak weight will always be higher, and doesn't have to be overly high to drive a target arrow decently. with that in mind, the usual 60% let-off, or even just a bit less, will do just fine. as let off increases, so does, instability and a few other issues that tend to make target shooting a downward spiraling mess of wrong things, piled on top of other wrong things.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

wolf44 said:


> PSE me cams with the dl mod set one slot longer will yield 62-64% depending on cams starting orientation and how your cables are built.


Wolf, if I am not mistaken, there's no way the ME cams will squeeze into a Hoyt's available limb space...:mg:


----------



## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Lol. Bet not


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ron w said:


> yup, your set up should be established around the holding weight that works best for you. peak weight will always be higher, and doesn't have to be overly high to drive a target arrow decently. with that in mind, the usual 60% let-off, or even just a bit less, will do just fine. as let off increases, so does, instability and a few other issues that tend to make target shooting a downward spiraling mess of wrong things, piled on top of other wrong things.


Ain't that the truth!!! Really wish Hoyt would come out with a parallel-limbed bow with 65% letoff cams, but that's really getting off track here.....


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Thinking about this some more has me wondering. If you go with a really low holding weight, all other things being equal, does that lead to using the arm and shoulder muscles in the holding mode rather than using the back muscles? And if so, that would seem to result in a more unsteady sight picture.

I checked my Scepter V and was surprised to find that I'm at nearly 83%.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Cantankerous also....  Move the draw stop. Takes longer to find the right allen wrench than to move it. Don't like it, move it back.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Better do what he says, Carlos before you slide right off the back end......hehe!!


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

carlosii said:


> Thinking about this some more has me wondering. If you go with a really low holding weight, all other things being equal, does that lead to using the arm and shoulder muscles in the holding mode rather than using the back muscles? And if so, that would seem to result in a more unsteady sight picture.
> 
> I checked my Scepter V and was surprised to find that I'm at nearly 83%.


 essentially yes, as the lack of holding weight negates the automatic involvement of the larger muscle group in your shoulders. many guy have problems here when the shoot by using back tension, but have to "convert from draw muscles to back tension when they reach anchor. if you initiate your rhomboids, as used in back tension, as a function of drawing your bow, right from brace, this will never be a problem.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> Cantankerous also....  Move the draw stop. Takes longer to find the right allen wrench than to move it. Don't like it, move it back.


I think it may take more than that, Sonny. I wanna keep the same draw length and moving the draw stop will directly effect the draw...so...I think its going to take some trial and error involving both the draw stop and draw module changes. And I really don't enjoy movin' those modules back and forth.

What got me thinking about this issue was when I got my old Diamond Marquis with the idea of maybe spending some time in the deer blind this fall. It has a much lower letoff and when I started practicing with it I found I was holding much steadier and the shot seemed to go off crisper. I liked that.


----------



## WilliamsTD (Oct 14, 2004)

Carlosii, go back and read your notes from GRIV's class, he covered all of this in detail ;o)


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

WilliamsTD said:


> Carlosii, go back and read your notes from GRIV's class, he covered all of this in detail ;o)


Thanks for the suggestion. Do you recall where I put my notes? Its been like 10 years since then. :angel:


----------



## WilliamsTD (Oct 14, 2004)

carlosii said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. Do you recall where I put my notes? Its been like 10 years since then. :angel:


I think you were just doodling anyway, so they wouldn't do you any good


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> I think it may take more than that, Sonny. I wanna keep the same draw length and moving the draw stop will directly effect the draw..


Cantankerous..... Heck, I moved my draw stop half a country mile just take a 1/4" off the draw length. I betcha Elk and them guys over in the ASA forums has gotcha thinking bow tuning is hard beings Clawed shooting head and shoulders above ya....

Hardest dang thing I ever found about archery was the disbelief of the crap I hear on AT. Some people would better off if they threw their bow together and just shoot..... Lord! 

??? Where the heck have you been, Chuck. I was tuning Martins and Ryteras for most the shooters in my area. Beings I'm unbruised and walking and talking tells ya they never beat me about the head and shoulders.... And don't say I ran faster than they could....


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

WilliamsTD said:


> I think you were just doodling anyway, so they wouldn't do you any good


I ain't hard to get along with. I'll agree with ya  And it wasn't 10 years ago that Carlos took the class...I know 'cause he telled me all about it....Well, what I thought it would amount to. That dang price and notes should have been wrote up and handed out.... Lord! Think of the do-dads you could buy....New sight frame or a new release or two, fancy arrow rest, maybe even bribe a 2 to 3...well, maybe 5 guys to spot me points.....


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

ILOVE3D said:


> How does one achieve holding weight up on the new bows that spout 75% let off. My Dominator set at max 57# is only about 15 at full draw. Would setting draw one length longer but leave draw stops in proper peg hole or put draw stops in lower length hole than draw length setting?


I have the dominator with the ME cam...Supra too.

I increased the holding weight by using a draw stop one position higher than the module peg...C DL peg "D" draw stop peg


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

montigre said:


> Wolf, if I am not mistaken, there's no way the ME cams will squeeze into a Hoyt's available limb space...:mg:


Actually I think it just might fit...just. I'll have to measure again but I though there was enough space to get a couple .010" spacers in there.


Regardless...would rather put the Hoyt cams in the PSE...Dominator with spirals would be nice.


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

carlosii said:


> I think it may take more than that, Sonny. I wanna keep the same draw length and moving the draw stop will directly effect the draw...so...I think its going to take some trial and error involving both the draw stop and draw module changes. And I really don't enjoy movin' those modules back and forth.
> 
> What got me thinking about this issue was when I got my old Diamond Marquis with the idea of maybe spending some time in the deer blind this fall. It has a much lower letoff and when I started practicing with it I found I was holding much steadier and the shot seemed to go off crisper. I liked that.


On the Shadowcat I had, when I got to playing with holding weight, I did this...

I first determined what a good DL was for me...marked my setting. This is just reference as it will change with the next step.

I adjusted the draw length to the next longer setting...then moved the draw stop as necessary to make the DL correct for me. Once I get the Stop setting correct with the longer DL to create a shorter DL, I move the DL setting back to the shorter setting.


----------



## PWOODNC (Mar 6, 2005)

ron w said:


> essentially yes, as the lack of holding weight negates the automatic involvement of the larger muscle group in your shoulders. many guy have problems here when the shoot by using back tension, but have to "convert from draw muscles to back tension when they reach anchor. if you initiate your rhomboids, as used in back tension, as a function of drawing your bow, right from brace, this will never be a problem.


Please explain how, if you don't mind.
Thanks


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

find a door...regular bedroom door is fine.

open it up about half way.

the test:

with the door open half way- reach out with your hand and move the door left to right (open/close)...kind of easy.

now, Lean into the edge of the door with about 50% of your body weight...
Now, lean into the edge of the door with 100% of your body weight.

With each successive increase in pressure, try moving the door L/R- (may have to have someone else lean OR push) Take note as to the amount of force it takes to move the door with each increase in leaning pressure.

Think of the door hinge as our shoulder alignment. As you increase pressure, the alignment gets more steady. Why? Because of the dynamic pressure holding the system together. Of course there is the point of diminishing returnes and you can have too much holding weight...but get in that sweet spot- and you get rock solid.


I believe this is basically what Ron is getting at...though I may have misunderstood the question/explanation.


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

to some degree Fury90. 
using your rhomboids to initiate the drawing of your bow, has the same feeling as when you pull your shoulders back and down when you stand at attention. if put your rhomboids into the draw right from brace, there is no "converting to back tension" when you get to anchor. you are in "back tension" from the moment you start drawing.
your rhomboids are big muscles and stronger than any of your arm muscles, why not use them to help draw your bow ?.
simply do your back tension "tensing" at the time you begin your draw, rather than getting to anchor and then tense your rhomboids for back tension. doing this way puts your rhomboids to work drawing your bow and then the release execution is truly just an extension of the draw making a continuous flow that ends with the shot breaking. it is also, the "real" method of using "back tension" to shoot.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> On the Shadowcat I had, when I got to playing with holding weight, I did this...
> 
> I first determined what a good DL was for me...marked my setting. This is just reference as it will change with the next step.
> 
> I adjusted the draw length to the next longer setting...then moved the draw stop as necessary to make the DL correct for me. Once I get the Stop setting correct with the longer DL to create a shorter DL, I move the DL setting back to the shorter setting.


The biggest problem with the 2010 and 2011 Shadowcats was draw length. Everyone of mine, 3 of them, were over 1 1/2" long for 27" draw setting, the lowest you could move the modules. Help from nuts&bolts and M&R Bow Strings and I twisted the living daylights out of the string and cables. All twisted up, draw stop set so about 70% let off, all measured 28 1/4" set to the 27" draw setting. Longer draw people had it a little easier....

Help with a Martin Silver level staff shooter, I untwisted cables and twisted up the bow string until I had draw length for module setting. Took dang near all day. I didn't loose draw weight or speed. But the bow string, it was twisted to the point of knotting and the cables were had no twist in them. Vapor Trail made a set of strings as per measurements taken and the strings weren't right - still have them somewhere.
I should have shipped it off to M&R Bow Strings. Roger made a set of strings to my Frankenstein, a Bow Logic 36 with Pearson Z7 cam, and he made magic. The Bow Logic 36 by Kodiak Outdoors was a Proto type that never went into production. Pretty sucker.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Fury90flier said:


> On the Shadowcat I had, when I got to playing with holding weight, I did this...
> 
> I first determined what a good DL was for me...marked my setting. This is just reference as it will change with the next step.
> 
> I adjusted the draw length to the next longer setting...then moved the draw stop as necessary to make the DL correct for me. Once I get the Stop setting correct with the longer DL to create a shorter DL, I move the DL setting back to the shorter setting.


Thanks.

That's pretty much the way I was going to proceed. I'll put it on the draw board, measure the draw, and then begin moving things about.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> On the Shadowcat I had, when I got to playing with holding weight, I did this...
> 
> *I first determined what a good DL was for me...marked my setting. This is just reference as it will change with the next step.*
> I adjusted the draw length to the next longer setting...then* moved the draw stop as necessary to make the DL correct for me.* Once I get the Stop setting correct with the longer DL to create a shorter DL, *I move the DL setting back to the shorter setting*.





carlosii said:


> Thanks.
> 
> That's pretty much the way I was going to proceed. I'll put it on the draw board, measure the draw, and then begin moving things about.


Let's see. If I remember correctly, and I do, Nitro/Cat cams are truly tied into each other. Moving the draw stop stops the bottom cam and the top cam stops with it. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. Nitros have 1/2" adjustment modules. When set up, draw length is some what set to the shooter and the draw stop is somewhat set to 80%. The Nitros aren't like the Cam & 1/2s, liking the top cam hitting a bit before the bottom. Set the same the Nitro/Cat cams, will give right at 1/16" high nock setting. The Rytera line was the same way, dead on timing.

Okay, moving the draw stop lessens let off and draw length. Timing is uneffected. The pencil line I noted above for changing the draw stop, what .030" to .040"? Dang little to worry about and fact that people can shoot a shorter draw length bow better than they can one too long.

Further adjusting of draw length requires playing with the string and cables. 40" and more ata bow, you're looking at 1 twist each of the cables and 4 twists of the bow string. Some say 3 twists of the bow string, but 4 worked for me. Roger of M &R Bow Strings confirmed my number of twists of the bow string, 4. If you wish to use 3 twists of the bow string, so be it. There shouldn't be a problem. 

Warnings; 1 - Don't remove the modules when finding draw length. 2 - Don't use high let off with low poundage. We had one set so, a 2008 dark blue target Firecat. It shot, but the bow just seemed like it wasn't going to go. 3 of us tried this Firecat and we were scared of it. We could actually see the release come well away from the string before the string went forward. Okay, not a lock up, but scary. I corrected the bow and it turned out to be a exceptional accurate and really quiet.


----------

