# Inconsistent Groups



## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

For the past couple of months my groups have been inconsistent. I will sight my bow in and It will be fine for about a week and then I notice my groups moving, mostly either high or low and I will re sight in. Its getting to be frustrating. I think it may be because of the peep tubing. It has broken a few times at the peep and I just slid it back on so now my peep tubing is pretty short. Could this affect it? Any suggestions?

Muleybuck


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## HNSB (Jul 1, 2004)

If your peep isn't tied in well, the tubing can cause it to slide up the string.

If you're groups are moving up sometimes, and down sometimes, it's more likely a form issue, rest issue, or a problem with your sight moving.


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## andy_smaga (Sep 27, 2003)

*Danish archer,*

It's possible that when you slide in your tubing that you push your peep out of position (push peep high and arrows go high, push peep down and arrows go down)


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

I was doing this for a long time also wore out the screw on my sight ! then I noticed I was'nt achoring @ the exact place 1 inch high or low makes a big difference.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

You have hit the nail on the head! Different tension on the peep tubing will change your nock point position at full draw- the more tension, the lower you will shoot. You can test this by shooting the tubing as you have it now, then tie it in much shorter and see what happens.

Ditch the tubing, it'll put your eye out when it breaks at full draw! I believe they have a warning on the package that says wear safety glasses!


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## OntarioArch (Mar 21, 2005)

*inconsistant shooting*

I've had this problem in the past when I used the peep with the tube .The first thing you should do ,and I'm hoping you have ,is check to be sure that your rest and your sight are tight .I never liked the tube peep because you never knew when the tube was gonna break , and it did many times if you never replaced it every season .I went to the Fletcher Tru Peep and I've never had this issue arise since ,it alway's rotate's correctly and I don't have to worry about a tube breaking when that that buck of a life time walk's into range .Try the tubeless peep .I'm sure you'll be satisfied with it as I am.

Oh Yea I almost forgot ,when the tubing break's and you put it back on ,this add's more tension on your tubing and also may change your nocking point.The shorter it get's the more thing's may change in your shooting.

OntarioArch


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

yeah Im pretty sure that its the changing of the size of the peep tubing. For some reason my peep tubing breaks quite often. Now it is way too short and pulls pretty tight at full draw. I'll try to find a better tubing. Thanks for the help.
Muleybuck


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Yeah, and you won't have to worry about which eye is dominant


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Muleybuck said:


> For the past couple of months my groups have been inconsistent. I will sight my bow in and It will be fine for about a week and then I notice my groups moving, mostly either high or low and I will re sight in. Its getting to be frustrating. I think it may be because of the peep tubing. It has broken a few times at the peep and I just slid it back on so now my peep tubing is pretty short. Could this affect it? Any suggestions?
> 
> Muleybuck


Yep, tubing can make a *HUGE* difference.

Really, just get a quality string and don't use one. I know it's hard to believe, I went 14 years using a tubing and never would believe anything else (was always just a backyard hunter, not a target shooter). Always thought I would be on the big buck and the peep would fail to rotate, tubing was insurance. Those guys that said you didn't need one were nutso - very nuto.

Yet, after getting in target shooting the tubing just wouldn't stand up. Ever thousand or so shots the tubing would break and bang - couldn't shoot until I fixed it. Even with low quality "custom" strings (made my first a few months ago) it only took 20-30 shots to train, now thousands upon thosuands of shots later it still hits the same exact point every single time no matter what. MUCH more reliable than the peep tubing *ever* thought about being. I kick myself now for not listening, it may be counter intuitive but it is correct.

You don't need to spend a fortune (though those strings are pretty much worth the money, you do not *need* one to get the consistancy, it just takes longer to train), you should be able to find a local pro-shop or an archery club where someone will make you a quality string for little of nothing. If you lived near me I know several who will make one for free or simply for cost.

You loose the worry of the tubing breaking, you don't have to worry about snagging it on brush, you don't have to worry about different tube length changing your impact point - your peep will simply rotate to the correct place every single time in thousands upon thousands of shots for years and years. I still know people who have seen 40 to 50 people shoot shousands of shots with no issue and thier tubing breaking avery two months or so, still think thier tubing is "insurance". I just no longer understand that - go shoot at a local club and watch how well thier peeps work. My peep never even has entered my mind for years - it is just there when I need it.

Look at it this way, how many people that use the tubing have had peeps fail to ratate? How many people that do not have had them fail to rotate? One group says "I'm afraid they will not, so I will not try" and the other group says "I have done so for years, no problem". Chances are, the second group is correct.


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## Will Wisp (Dec 20, 2002)

Muley,if you don't want the expense of a new string/cable system right now,install a new,improved peep tube,they last alot longer.A short tube stresses the tube too much at both ends and causes it to break too often.Just examine the tube from time to time at both ends,wear will show with cracking and thinning when at full draw.Install the tube long enough so it straightens the peep at the last 2 1/2 inches or so of draw.This will have no impact on shooting,last longer and will put minimal stress on your peep and string.I usually change my peep tube in the spring and then again before bow season.Its a small price to pay to insure a reliable peep.


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## Dave Nowlin (May 21, 2003)

I've read all these posts and am a little surprised no one made a simple suggestion. First if you have to use a peep with a tube make sure it doesn't come tight until about the last inch of your draw to minimize the stretching of the tubing. Then should it break it won't have near as much force when it hits you in the eye. Second if you will shoot your bow set up this way then remove the tubing and twist your peep so it will line up properly for one shot. Notice the difference in point of impact on the target. This will show you how much that tubing effects the way your bow shoots. I am amazed at the fact that many of the folks on some of the hunting shows on TV are still using the peeps that have tubing attached. You would think someone would help them out and show them what quality strings and a Fletcher peep will do for them.
Dave Nowlin


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Yes, I agree with Dave. I would set the string and peep so they are correct and only use a very weakly stretch tube for insurance. I do not use a D-loop or any other type or rotation control on my hunting bow, because I like to shoot a caliper under the nock off the string. I have eye sight problems and find hooking up to a D-loop in a dark morning next to impossible.


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## OntarioArch (Mar 21, 2005)

*peep*

Myself I would seriously consider going to a tubeless peep such as the Fletcher Tru Peep ,which I use .I'll never go back to a tube peep ever again ,once it's set you shouldn't ever have to worry about it ,if it doesn't rotate correctly ,then you've probably moved the peep up or down slightly by accident.All it take's to get it back is to slightly raise it or lower it until you find it rotating correctly again.Of course it's gonna work best with a quality string ,but don't let anyone tell you that it won't work on the lower quality strings as well because they do.

OntarioArch


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Muleybuck said:


> yeah Im pretty sure that its the changing of the size of the peep tubing. For some reason my peep tubing breaks quite often. Now it is way too short and pulls pretty tight at full draw. I'll try to find a better tubing. Thanks for the help.
> Muleybuck



Forget the better tubing. They all will break and smack you in the face. Save your money on the tubbing and just put it toward a good set of strings and cables. You don't need to spend a ton of money either to get a good set. There are a few high end string makers that can get you set up for around $50 or so. Which is alot cheaper than a glass eye.


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

The tubing doesnt break on the far side so It goes away from me when it breaks. The tubing they put on was supposed to be top quality silicon tubing. When I get new strings this summer I'll put on a tubeless peep. For now Ill just put on new tubing.

Thanks for the help


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Muleybuck said:


> The tubing doesnt break on the far side so It goes away from me when it breaks. The tubing they put on was supposed to be top quality silicon tubing. When I get new strings this summer I'll put on a tubeless peep. For now Ill just put on new tubing.
> 
> Thanks for the help



Ok you keep thinking that.  

Everyones breaks at the peep. The last time I used peep tubbing years ago mine broke at the peep and smacked me in the face, and no it wasn't the first time it had happened. But it was the last. Don't wait to buy new strings this summer buy them now. Then tune the bow and shoot it and forget it. Why wait to get the bow setup and shooting good? 

Also find someone that knows how to set a peep. It doesn't sound like your shop does. High end string or not. You can still set it so you don't need tubbing. It is even easier if you shoot a loop.


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## Will Wisp (Dec 20, 2002)

I have used a tube peep for 20 years and have never,ever had one break and hit me anywhere.If your tube breaks its because you have neglected basic maintenence inspection.The reason so many hunters are still useing the tube is simply because they provide simple assurance that the peep will be there when ya need it.


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## andy_smaga (Sep 27, 2003)

I agree with Brown Hornet, unless you only hunt with your bow, and don't need the extra accuracy you will get by throwing away the tubbing... :beer:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Will Wisp said:


> If your tube breaks its because you have neglected basic maintenence inspection.The reason so many hunters are still useing the tube is simply because they provide simple assurance that the peep will be there when ya need it.



It can break without notice. I guess nobody has ever gotten a flat tire on a tire that was less than 6 months old. SH** happens.

I know why people use them but myself and many others get the same satisfaction and assurance from a quality set of strings. Like I said before when my bow is at rest my peep is facing me. When I get to full draw it is in the same place. It doesn't move at all. How much more assurance do you need than that?


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

the reason my tube breaks isnt because I dont inspect it. It never cracks or nothin before it breaks. It usually breaks and is held on by a strand and I notice it when I draw back because my peep isnt where it should be. Id buy new strings and a peep if I had the extra money right now but I dont. Im a teenager and have enough money to keep my truck runnin and thats about it.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

WillWisp:

Yeah, and I know people who drink and drive and have never had an accident!


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## Zen Archery (Jul 27, 2004)

best thing i ever did when shots were going all over the place was to take a 2 week break from shooting. i was convinced that it was my equipment - NOT.


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## Dave Nowlin (May 21, 2003)

Hornet, you say it's cheaper than a glass eye. One thing you didn't consider, if you shoot a lot strings wear out and have to be replaced, glass eyes don't.   
Dave Nowlin


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## John316 (Aug 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Forget the better tubing. They all will break and smack you in the face. Save your money on the tubbing and just put it toward a good set of strings and cables. You don't need to spend a ton of money either to get a good set. There are a few high end string makers that can get you set up for around $50 or so. Which is alot cheaper than a glass eye.


My advice to you is to listen to this mans advice.....last year i followed some of his advice.....bought a custom string from Berry strings.....got rid of the tube and started using magnocks.....my shooting improved and my broadheads flew better then ever.

He knows his stuff

John


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Muleybuck:

Everyone makes choices in life. Good luck with yours!


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## rhinoshooter (Feb 6, 2005)

you arent using a trophy ridge sight are you? i had the same problems with my TR MATRIX!!!


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

nope Im using a spot hogg real deal.


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## Ohio Bow (Jan 15, 2005)

Get a Job.


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

*Bah humbug*

I've been shooting before most of ya were out of three cornered pants and been using a tube for the last 20 years or so and yeah I shoot fingers.Have NEVER had a tube break and smack me in the face , put my eye out or cause my first born to go sterile. First of all one you said ,It always breaks at the peep,now how in the sam hill if it breaks there can it hit your face??? yep you get get a flat tire cuz sh.. happens but if you see dry rot or tread coming off you get a new tire don't you?? or maybe you don't just cuz you use a release and don't need a tube don't condem the ones that do and as far as only using a tube for hunting cuz you don't need to be as accurate welll if them are your thoughts you will NEVER hunt with me. oh by the way I am 61 years old, shoot average 294 in the league with fingers and have never had a tube fail while hunting or league.  (still pondering on how it can break at the peep and then put your eye out)


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## XADDICT (Apr 12, 2005)

Go get yourself a good string. Peep tubing always breaks sooner or later.


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

Sooooooo I need to take the vapor trails off and maybe put the original strings back on, that way the string won't roll with my fingers as I draw back? or just maybe simple maintenance like wax the strings,check the tube, powder my tab,replace the silcone tube on my 10 year old rest.what I'm saying is that you need to watch your equipment but the tube is going to break at the peep where it is under stress from bending and snap toward the bow away from your face,I've seen releases go out of adjustment and release before full draw and the the guy suffered a broken nose and black eye when his hand snapped back.if it works for you,use ,if it doesn't don't knock it especially if you have never used one.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

harleyryder said:


> Sooooooo I need to take the vapor trails off and maybe put the original strings back on, that way the string won't roll with my fingers as I draw back? or just maybe simple maintenance like wax the strings,check the tube, powder my tab,replace the silcone tube on my 10 year old rest.what I'm saying is that you need to watch your equipment but the tube is going to break at the peep where it is under stress from bending and snap toward the bow away from your face,I've seen releases go out of adjustment and release before full draw and the the guy suffered a broken nose and black eye when his hand snapped back.if it works for you,use ,if it doesn't don't knock it especially if you have never used one.


Take a rubber band or some peep tubbing or whatever you want that is elastic rubber. Pull it back and let it go. Does it go forward and not come back at all?.?.?.?.? NO IT COMES BACK AT YOU AFTER IT GOES FORWARD. You bow string does the same thing it's called oscillation. Now imagine that tube hooked to a string, that you are holding back at 50, 60, 70 or however many lbs you shoot? It sure isn't gonna just go forward and stop. Yes you need to watch your equipment but don't say that just because your tubbing hasn't broken, be it 50 days or 50 years. They can and do break. No matter how much you inspect them. 

As for your Vapor Trail strings....No you don't need to take them off. But I can shoot my bow with fingers and my peep doesn't move. Neither does the peep for alot of finger shooters I know and have seen shoot that don't shoot Berry Strings. 

By the way I can nock tubbing because I shot it. I have also had them break, and break and break again. That is why I stopped using one. LOOOONNNNGGGG before I even started shooting targets.


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

Yep did as you asked except instead of a rubber band I used a piece of tubing,,pulled it back and let go,quite a few times in fact I'm still doing it. now you try it , there is no way on this green earth it will come back at hit you in the face, it goes forward and then just flops down.in order for it to spring back at your face it would have to stretch forward an equal amount and then spring back which it can not do unless you have a weight attached to the end of it,please go try it and be honest, how far does it come back


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Just one question. Do you guys wear helmets when you ride a bike?


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

I agree with harleyryder. There is no way that the peep will break, fly forward and then stretch all the way back and hit you in the eye. Try it.


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Now imagine that tube hooked to a string, that you are holding back at 50, 60, 70 or however many lbs you shoot? It sure isn't gonna just go forward and stop.



The pound of bow I shoot makes no difference on how much force it will have if it breaks. Its how much its being stretched. take a peice of tubing and pull it back as far as you want. It won't even come back past the hand your holding it with. I dont know why you guys are so caught up on this putting your eye out thing.


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## Phish (Sep 15, 2004)

Muleybuck said:


> The pound of bow I shoot makes no difference on how much force it will have if it breaks. Its how much its being stretched. take a peice of tubing and pull it back as far as you want. It won't even come back past the hand your holding it with. I dont know why you guys are so caught up on this putting your eye out thing.


Like BH said oscillation. Your finger doesn't come back but your string does. Tubing is dangerous. Brown Hornet knows what he is talking about.BH is a very respected and very knowledgeable guy. Cant believe you are arguing that tubing isn't dangerous.Tubing sucks!!


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

I have gone tubeless and love it but I did shoot a tube for over 35 years. I have had literally hundreds of breaks during those years. All were at the peep and none ever flew back and hit me. I have never seen or heard of a tube hitting anyone I know that shoots either. If one broke at the string it would be possible to get popped by it but it is virtually impossible to get hit by a tube that breaks at the peep.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Ok you guys. I give up. You have me and all of the 1000's of shooters that have been hit in the face by their broken tubbing that it wasn't the tubbing that smacked them in the face. It must have been, a bug or a busted nock, or maybe a little fairy (like tinkerbell) smacked them at the very moment that their tube broke. 

I just think that it is funny that a million people have been hit in the face by broken tubbing and now people are trying to tell others that it can't and won't happen, and that there is know way that it can happen. RIGHT. We are all morans that don't know when they got hit and what it was.


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

*Laffin"*

thinking Jabwa is trying to stir up the pot now with that question but I'll answer it.Yes I do wear a helmet if I want to and no if I don't want to.You're not going to tell me that if my chin strap breaks the helmet will fly back and put my eye out are you??? not real sure what you're point is but I am sure you will tell me and oh yes I was the one whose release failed just as I was a little over 1/2 way back and suffered a broken nose and black eye when my hand with the release hit me. was not a pretty sight. soooooooo until I decide to change I'll stick with my rubber tube,Cavalier rest and plunger,feathers on my alum. arrows and a finger tab.It's comfortable,reliable and I hit what I aim at. You shoot what ever you want, I could care less just don't attack my way and tell me how foolish and dangerous it is. Do you know what is the most common way by far a bowhunter gets hurt?????
........................................................................................................
falling out of their treestand !!!


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> I just think that it is funny that a million people have been hit in the face by broken tubbing and now people are trying to tell others that it can't and won't happen, and that there is know way that it can happen. RIGHT. We are all morans that don't know when they got hit and what it was.


All those years that I thought it was a tube, gald I came here also and learned otherwise. Though I would like to know what it was.

Eh, people use "insurance" all the time that is less reliable than what they are insuring themselfs from. Doesn't matter if it is archery not, not gonna change. Even if they were to have on break on a record Buck they will still say it is better. They guy we shoot with has to retie his every month or so and has it come off all the time (breaks, slips off, comes untied - despite others that say they have *never* had that happen and fix his up - of course the times I saw it happen to them didn't count). It never seems to sink in, even when someone points it out after his fails, that in thousands upon thousands of shots in the two years we have been shooting targets we have never had a peep fail to rotate into position, yet at least once a month he has to fiddle with his. It's still "insurance" for when he is hunting. Oh well, can lead a horse to the water, can't make them drink. 

Though, to the original poster, if you have a local club you can most likely talk someone into making you a string. Most will do it fairly cheap (some here even free, especially for young'uns wanting to shoot and having to spend thier own money). It will work much better than what you have right now, 80-90% as good as the high dollar custom strings at a signifigantly less price and it will increase your enjoyment of the sport.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Peep tubing has the COOTIES! Sorry you had to read that on the net! Your parents should have warned you. Buy a Winners Choice string or any of the other strings you have read about here. They are all cheaper than glass eyes, but not cheaper than black eye patches. With a black eye patch you'll look like a pirate. Pirates get all the booty, know what I'm saying? :wink: Then you'll have to learn to shoot opposite handed, and put out your other eye! But you'll still be 'up', because the shades you'll have to buy are still cheaper than a custom string. Then you'll look like Ray Charles! He got alot of chicks too. Hey, either way you can't lose! Get lots of chics, or not put out your eye (s) and still have a peep not rotate in your string. Its your choice man.


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## Muleybuck (Jan 27, 2005)

cath8r said:


> Peep tubing has the COOTIES! Sorry you had to read that on the net! Your parents should have warned you. Buy a Winners Choice string or any of the other strings you have read about here. They are all cheaper than glass eyes, but not cheaper than black eye patches. With a black eye patch you'll look like a pirate. Pirates get all the booty, know what I'm saying? :wink: Then you'll have to learn to shoot opposite handed, and put out your other eye! But you'll still be 'up', because the shades you'll have to buy are still cheaper than a custom string. Then you'll look like Ray Charles! He got alot of chicks too. Hey, either way you can't lose! Get lots of chics, or not put out your eye (s) and still have a peep not rotate in your string. Its your choice man.


Now thats funny. Im not tryin to argue that a tube peep is better. Im planning on getting a new string and peep when I have some extra money. And to whoever said get a job I actually have one. but I have to pay for stuff that I NEED before I can go out and buy stuff for my bow. Brown Hornet you are a way more experienced archer than me so I'll take your word that peep tubing can hit you in the eye and make you go blind  I had my peep break for the last time today and it didnt get anywhere near my eye. But Im sure under certain circumstances it is possible. Im just not worried about it. And no I dont wear a helmet when I ride a bike. heck I dont even ride bikes. Got some new tubing today and it seems to be way better quality. Thanks for all the opinions  

Muleybuck


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Muleybuck you have a PM. :smile:


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

*Laffin*

Hey mulie, I think the helmet dig was directed towards me but thats all right but hey guy shoot what you got and am happy with. just because somebody else doesn't like your equipment and knows a million other people who doesn't either does not make it wrong or unsafe,where are you buying your tubing? I buy mine both at Scheels All Sports,They must carry a better quality because mine lasts all year then I just change it out in the winter.If yours is breaking that often then you might have it to tight.I tie mine off on the cable that doesn't move,even though I have vapor trails string my peep will not roll back the same every time when I draw with fingers.close but close is not good enuff for a hunter.I tried the peeps that you put in between 3 or 6 strings and I see one or more of the strings at full draw which throws off my line of sight Happy Hunting and next to Elk ,Mulies are pure awesome.. :thumbs_up


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## Will Wisp (Dec 20, 2002)

Hey guys? I am a tube shooter,it works,I have never been hit by a broken tube,....Why? because i have seen guys get hit in the face(Yet they live ) buy a tube and the reason was that the tube was old,worn out and should have been replaced long before it broke.Yeah the tube may be dated and not the latest way of doin it,but it sure as heck does the job of puttin that peep there when its needed.The beautiful thing about archery is the many,many things to try and play with.I am one who has years and years of playin and foolin around with archery notions,Ideas,concepts and gizmos.At this point in my life,I have had enough of changing and foolin with stuff,the bowhunting aspect of getting close is first and formost with me.I have found a bow and set up that works well all the time with the very least of input from myself,allowing me much more time to spend in the woods.If the tube were a problem,believe me,i would find another way,I don't like things that bring surprises and failures when i least expect it,so i just check the tube and change it when it needs it,which is about twice a year,no big deal.So give us ludites a break,the tube is not evil,won't hurt you and serves some of us very well,its just another way...thats all there really is to it.


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