# Range Finder Class in ASA Poll



## jeff 55/75 (Sep 8, 2004)

No


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## mobowhunter (Oct 21, 2002)

No


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I like unmarked better for me. :wink:


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

*No*

I don't think you need them.


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## STSmansdaughter (Mar 11, 2005)

You're not a real shooter, if you can't judge yardage. It's just one of those obstacles that makes archery fun.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Keep In mind the question is…..

IF you do not would you.. Some of you voted no but you already shoot in the ASA's so let's just keep the poll pure and to it's intended purpose as I would like to see the results

Not a real shooter if you can't judge yardage?? HMMMMM…. Nope I won't even argue that one . I'll just go home and slip an unnamed product off my bow and make sure I don't order anymore….

Guess I'm not a real shooter since I can't judge yardage like Hopkins and McCarthy.. Darn and just when I thought I was getting merit back that the Gold Tip reps stole from me now the STS reps tell me I have none as well


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

centerx said:


> Keep In mind the question is…..
> 
> IF you do not would you.. Some of you voted no but you already shoot in the ASA's so let's just keep the poll pure and to it's intended purpose as I would like to see the results
> 
> ...


That's funny, I don't care who you are.............

I agree with your question, not a real shooter? Is Chance not a real shooter simply because he does not judge yardage as well as Hoppy and Danny? What about Reo, GRIV, Jimmy D, and many others that do not play the game due to the yardage judging? Not real shooter?

Anyways, I thought centerx's comments were.............spot on so to speak.....

Ah, merit........so hard to come by, and apparently so hard to keep!!!!!

For what it is worth, I did not vote..............but I am also interested in the results, if we can keep the intent of the poll pure........


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

centerx said:


> Keep In mind the question is…..
> 
> IF you do not would you.. Some of you voted no but you already shoot in the ASA's so let's just keep the poll pure and to it's intended purpose as I would like to see the results
> 
> Guess I'm not a real shooter since I can't judge yardage like Hopkins and McCarthy..


Didn't vote per the question.....Would have liked to see the "real" results, but I'm afraid its too late.

Somebody mark Field14 down for a no...  

I doubt if you can shoot as good as Hopkins and McCarthy either, which is the thing most forget, they are awesome shooters as well as yardage judgers, and mentally prepared target assassins......


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

Having range-finders legal for all unlimited classes is the only way to expand and truely make it a national sport.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

LongTime said:


> Having range-finders legal for all unlimited classes is the only way to expand and truely make it a national sport.


 Perhaps if we do that it will be as popular as field archery. :wink: 

It ain't the class or the venue. Its US and the lack of promotion that are the problem for all archery venues.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*



STSmansdaughter said:


> You're not a real shooter, if you can't judge yardage. It's just one of those obstacles that makes archery fun.


--------------------------------
 :mg: sometimes its better to :zip: 

:thumbs_do :thumbs_do :thumbs_do :thumbs_do :thumbs_do 

Unk :angel:


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## bowhunter357 (Jul 23, 2004)

The simms is marked yardage and theres money in that! Oh, by the way I would put Danny M without a range finder up against anyone of your choice with a range finder. 

Range finding is part of 3D and it should stay that way, however, not being able to judge doesn't make you a "non-shooter" if you truely think that, go to vegas and watch some spots, most of them can't judge that great, but I gaurantee you they can shoot!


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## STSmansdaughter (Mar 11, 2005)

centerx said:


> Keep In mind the question is…..
> 
> IF you do not would you.. Some of you voted no but you already shoot in the ASA's so let's just keep the poll pure and to it's intended purpose as I would like to see the results
> 
> ...


No, I didn't mean it that way.  You don't have to judge yardage perfectly. Heck, I know I can't judge yardage good at all. What, I mean is if you depend completely on rangefinders. To me rangefinders would take out some of the fun and thrill on the 3D course.


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## GeorgiaJAWS (Feb 11, 2004)

If you want to know the yardage then the SIMMS is made for you.

Anyone can come up with a number, trick is to get the right one. LOL
Maybe those in favor of range finders should just stick to the indoor leagues that way they would remain in their comfort zone.


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## Strutter Cutter (Jun 28, 2004)

centerx said:


> Keep In mind the question is…..
> 
> IF you do not would you.. Some of you voted no but you already shoot in the ASA's so let's just keep the poll pure and to it's intended purpose as I would like to see the results
> 
> ...


Which one is the adolescent here :embarasse ?


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## Dredly (May 10, 2005)

You realize this exact same argument occurs in every single sport as technology improves. The new laser rangefinders are dead on accuracte and will bring change. The older ones were close but not exact so it wasn't really an issue...

Example are Pro Baseball - Wood vs Aluminum bats and Paintball - Semi vs Pump, Football - Padded helmets vs your skull. People perfer not to change, they like it the way it is, look how many traditional shooters are still out there. (not saying there is ANYTHING wrong with that, don't take it like that) So anytime a new device comes along that can revolutionize the sport there is always resistance. Its just us being human

You long time shooters probably had this EXACT same discussion about compounds vs Recurves, Finger shooting vs Release, foam targets vs hay bales, speed vs KE... and the list goes on and on. One of the greatest things about archery is there is always something new, always a new toy to try out, something new to tinker with.

In a few years the discussion will be over range finding scopes or laser dot sights, 100% letoff or 80% let off and speed or KE .

as for my vote - I went with Yes. I am a horrible judge of distance, my right eye is almost useless so guaging depth is extremly difficult for me, both up close and far away


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## GeorgiaJAWS (Feb 11, 2004)

Arrow companies would love the idea of a range finder class.

Besides, from what I've been reading most think that there are tooo many classes already.


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

GeorgiaJAWS said:


> Maybe those in favor of range finders should just stick to the indoor leagues that way they would remain in their comfort zone.


Pretty narrow-minded point of view, one that will be the demise of archery if people don't wake up.  

It is all about attracting new shooters into the venue (not excluding them) to keep the sport growing not stagnating like it seems to be currently doing.


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## overseeR (May 5, 2005)

this is a stupid concept expecially coming from the regional director of the ASA. Why change something that isn't broken. Maybe instead of changing 3d you should step back to hunter class since you cant seem to figure out how to shoot with the semi pros  
what is the real definition of 3d anyway. Isn't it supposed to be unmarked yardage? Doesn't the ASA have a marked sims course? Save your entry fee money and shoot that 10 times. Your bound to get a top 10 then.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Chicken Little proclaimed, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!"

When actually, it wasn't, it was just an apple falling.


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

just because a regional director started the thread doesnt mean he isnt allowed to think outside the box (as hard as that may be for us to imagine  )

nothing wrong with being PRO active vs reactive....if you wait to long to change something, nothing will help.....and with all the different classes they do have today in archery, whats one more.....and what would it really cost to try it for a few shoots and see how it goes....

i see nothing wrong with a rangefinder or marked yardage class....only thing i see is that once you put one rangefinder marked yardage class in....how long before the whinning starts to change it to a pro finder class, semi pro finder class, and so on......when you do one....you know the whines will come for more.....

archery......where you cant please everybody all the time.....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Put down field14 as a YES...

but a RESERVED Yes....because two other things need remedied before I'd become a POSITIVE YES, IMHO....and I've beaten that horse to death too many times over the years so won't bring it up here again (unless provoked, hahaha)

field14.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Jab, jab,

twist, twist to Field14. :angel:


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

field14 said:


> Put down field14 as a YES...
> 
> but a RESERVED Yes....because two other things need remedied before I'd become a POSITIVE YES, IMHO....and I've beaten that horse to death too many times over the years so won't bring it up here again (unless provoked, hahaha)
> 
> field14.


oh come on...you havent bashed in awhile....tell us what your holding out for anyway.....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

OBT, 
If I post ANYTHING at all contrary to popularity opinion when it comes to 3-D....it is a BASH...y'uns all know that.

One thing I will entice youins' all with, however....in spite of what some of the 3-D purists' thoughts that guessing the distance is ALL OF WHAT 3-D IS ABOUT...

Even if you know the distance to the nearest 1/2 inch, it isn't a sure-fire guarantee of hitting the 12 ring, the 10 ring, or in many instances....the animal at all...cuz if you ain't got the form and execution to MAKE THE STRONG SHOT....you are going to miss.

I am currently working on a 'system' whereby I can "guess" the yardage to within 2 INCHES....but I ran into a snag...and it works better than that....all done with my EYES that are as sharp as an eagle...I recently discovered that I beat out my Nikon 400 rangefinder by using my eyes alone...the rangefinder is only within 1/2 yard....and I'm getting pretty good correlation with my "system" running at just barely under TWO INCHES....Only thing is the patent and copyrighting expenses.... :cocktail: :smile:    

Now, I guess some of you "purists" out there are really sceered that some field shootin' spottie convert just MIGHT work the rangefinding division for awhile and learn the ropes and then come over and kick butt in the estimating division...or at least move some of "youins" down the leaderboard...and that is the FEAR in a nutshell...egos and selfishness, and total lack of concern for the future of the sport or the increasing of the participation and bringing new shooters into the mold.

Pure FEAR.....and lack of understanding that the rangefinder people won't be competing against your sorry butts anyhows.

Then....the 3-D purists bring up "they'll be talking about the yardages"....as if it doesn't go on all the time anyways (mostly AFTER the shots are done)...like it is some new revelation that people TALK TO EACH OTHER after they shoot a target or something.....egads....oh my gosh......

You think they'd at least wait until they set up their 3-Der cool stools and camp out on the next target while they wait their 25 minutes between shots to strike up a conversation or something.....

Crap, make that THREE reservations before I'd be a POSITIVE YES vote...but for now, still a tentative YES vote.

I have some "beach front" property in the Bahamas I'd sell ya too....

field14.....    :beer: :beer:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

field14 said:


> ...Crap, make that THREE reservations before I'd be a POSITIVE YES vote...but for now, still a tentative YES vote....


 In other words, if it were field shooting, you'd vote yes. :wink: 

I'd like to see archery grow, though I suspect that competitive archery will always be a red-headed stepchild to such major sports as bowling, skateboarding, and women's billiards.

We keep talking about how "nobody wants any televised shooting sports because of its links to hunting" or its "related to a blood sport". Hogwash!! There's a couple or three networks that are largely based on hunting shows; how many hunting shows (archery-based) are there compared to archery competition shows? Many of these hunters aren't going to show up to a competition regardless of how many classes you have or equipment limitations you don't have. We need to find something for them again, without ruining it for a minority of competitive shooters (remember the good 'ol IBO).


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

field14 said:


> OBT,
> If I post ANYTHING at all contrary to popularity opinion when it comes to 3-D....it is a BASH...y'uns all know that.
> 
> One thing I will entice youins' all with, however....in spite of what some of the 3-D purists' thoughts that guessing the distance is ALL OF WHAT 3-D IS ABOUT...
> ...


enough of all this double and triple reservations talk you speak of.....either you would attend a 3d shoot with a rangefinder class or you wouldnt.....

now this system of yours.....you dont need it in marked 3d...so why waste your time....

now field, dont go and try to act as if your not one of the 3d haters of this board.....we all know you spew nothing but poison about 3d....you have been having nightmares about 3d ever since your beloved venue of field archery went into the crapper.....(and all yall have been blaming 3d for the genocide of field archery)....when in reality, we all know that all 6 of you are way past the mendoza curve :wink: 

so go on field...let it out and get back to bashing the real star of all archery venue's stars.....3d archery in its purist form....UNMARKED....tell us more about the rapid and rancid cheating going on.....tell us more about the systems in place that are only used by those with the keenest of keen eyes.....tell us about the line pulling and not pulling scoring pitfalls..... tell us about the umbies and chairs that are rewriting all the rules......tell us about the pacing off and on of targets.....tell us about the pencil whippings of some of 3d's finest.....tell us of the patch wearers of today who have no idea how to honor the committment of pro-ams.....tell us of too many money grubbers shooting peerly for selfgain vs the good of the game gain....please field....i want to know about it all......or at least get a clearer understanding of this mess we call 3d


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## PSEjaws (Dec 7, 2004)

*what i have to say about this:*

I dont think he wants it to be allowed for everyone, just a class, and i think this would be awesome for incoming archers to start with , but also 

i know alot of guys that just want to give it up because they simply cant judge it! and they want to get out of the sport all together for the simple reason of how expensive it is to keep replacing $12 arrows every week or two.

so big ole thumbs up for the range finder class! heck you might catch me doin it  :wink:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well you know strut cut I guess that makes me the adolescent…

Put in 3 hours of practice at 80 yards on the 122 cm face a couple of days ago and at the end of the session I was pretty happy with my groups. I even took a picture as I had one of my personal best rounds all 6 in the 10 ring… Hmmmm.. Who ever thought I could do that. 

Then I come on here and I'm told by youth and adults alike that I should just stay away from the "pure 3-D "sport stay indoors .. Not a real shooter if you can't judge yardage.. Geesh a few days ago I ended a practice session by putting 6 arrows into a deer sized 10 ring at 80 yards.. Couldn't believe what I saw. The average was a little bigger then that of course but towards the end 3 hours of practice in the heat and humidity was starting to pay off ….. But I 'm not a real archer.. 


I guess I just have this vision of being able to show up at a shoot and shoot a tournament how I feel like it .. If I had the time to practice the pure vision of the game and I wanted to "roll with the real archers" then I could .. If life demands were putting a premium on my time and I felt like shooting " with a little help " then I could spend my hundreds of dollars and 10 hours drive time in hopes of having a little fun as well…. It has nothing to do with winning but with feeling good with what I am doing with a bow and arrow at that time

But I guess the " take your ball and go home" attitude does bring out the child in me….. Excuse me while I pout a little……………………………….. .. OK done


Now STS Girl… I suspected you didn't mean what you said so it's all cool… But make no mistakes about it if you did .. I would stop my experimentation with your fathers "invention" take it off and set it in a drawer. If your old enough to rep for your fathers company and work a booth your old enough to know or at least learn that if indeed was your belief it would not behoove you to demonstrate it as it would be detrimental to your fathers company. But heck I can't even get my 14 year old to mow the yard so your already an ok person in my book

Now I feel like acting like a child again… I stit in amazement as the purist argue if an arrow sticks in a target… Nock first is a scorable event or not… IF it's OK to talk to another competitor during a shoot. How they complain about how many people take longer then there 2 minutes. How certain items in hunter class should just simply be allowed on a whim without any approval process. How soon they should be made to leave a course before a lighting storm hits.. How little the payouts are, How to much goes to the clubs .. How they organizers hunt to much .. On our dimes… How attendance is down …On .. And On .. And On 

So me and twenty other guys show up to a shoot with our rangefinders and say "hey can we compete amongst ourselves and use these" and all these non whining , non childish purist look at us with utter amazement and say "No Way what the heck our you thinking…take you ball and go home" 

Softball sized 10 rings at 80 yards or strutten turkeys unmarked at 30 .. Don't worry about me I'll hit what I'm aiming for.. Most of the time .. When I don't I'll just act a little childish and pout a little .. Then I'll be ready to go again


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

"Put in 3 hours of practice at 80 yards on the 122 cm face a couple of days ago and at the end of the session I was pretty happy with my groups. I even took a picture as I had one of my personal best rounds all 6 in the 10 ring… Hmmmm.. Who ever thought I could do that."


I HAVE TO ADMIT.....i darn sure didnt think you could do it.....im from mizzou on this one.....show me the picture   

actually, great shooting......

no come on centerx.....you still all mad because you cant tighten your group any tighter with that sts ....if you read the small print on the web.....you will see, it says it will tighten the groups...with tons and tons of practice......


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well you know I just leaned how to download a music file a few days ago.. I have the picture in my home computer .. Getting it to work is a no/no and that we be assuming could figure it out how to post it on AT … I'll see if I can get it figured out I am pretty proud of it .. Normally 3 are in and 3 are dancing around them in the 9. On average. I will admit 80 yards is a blast and it makes 40 yard deer seem much easier.. But no real archery would shoot a bow at 80 yards would they? Only us whiny Childish types 


So I see we have had the Field smack down and the 3-D smackdowns… We need to get a FITA smack down going. I told you we could all wear Mossy OAK on the dress code.

Actually I did have the STS on that bow. I have logged shots with it on and with it off … No difference in score or group size for me. However I think it may have merit should one have to many clothes on or especially if competing out in the rain . Rain gear always seem to cause arm slap for me..

I have 3 things on this bow that the manufacturers have put in print will guarantee better groups or will make your bow shoot better then before… ect..ect.. ect… Now I will admit In some of these cases I like how the "dynamics" of the bow has changed but when the smile cleared did it make it shoot better or tighten my groups or get me points?? Nope .. Not a one .. But that's not why I bought them anyhow. I'm just a junkie and like trying new things


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## dee (Dec 27, 2004)

A better poll would have been:

"If you don't already shoot *3-D*, would you start if there was a rangefinder division?"

I know some Field Archery folks that wouldn't shoot 3-D if it was marked yardage or not.

I have said this before and I'll say it again. The way to start the ball rolling is to talk to the local clubs and get them to start rangefinder classes. National Organizations are NOT going to compromise ranges that they can run 400+ shooters through on a weekend just to have a rangefinder class.

Say what you want about people talking yardage over dinner, I dont hear that stuff. Maybe I need to go to a different bar or restaraunt so I can get educated for Sunday.

I get the feeling that if Einstien was on here explaining his theory of relativity most of you would argue with him.

Talk to the local clubs. If it will work and there's a calling for it then you'll see it at the national level. But, until you can get more than 20 people to show up for the TN NFAA Marked Yardage 3-D State Championship, when 150 people show up for the TN ASA UNMARKED Yardage State Championship, and the max yardage is the same, the whole idea is a flop and it stinks.

Sorta like the IBO CrossBow class, it was pretty easy to make the top 3 in Bedford and there were a whopping 7 of them in Erie. The same 2 X-Bow dudes shot all 3 legs of the S-3-Crown. Staggering numbers. That's why ASA did away with the Barebow Class. All it was doing was making the clubs have a class that no one, or just someone looking for a trophy without having to beat anybody, shot in.

All y'all want the ASA, and I guess the IBO, to pioneer this effort. If it was worth anything the local clubs would already be doing it, and until I see it catching on at the local and state level, I'll recommend against it for the ASA too.


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## GONZO (Sep 9, 2003)

no , not because of a rangefinder class , but because for some reason the ASA is too scared to have a pro am close to texas LMAO !!!!!! (baaak bock bock bock bakaaaaaaak ) sorry ,,, had to bash there its a rule !    

let em have a range finder class ,after they find out that even with a rangefinder , you still have to hit the 12 ring to win , and eventually they will want to sub the class to new rules , (such AS) : you cant shoot in this class unless you are useing a 40$to 100 dollar range finder , then there is this class for 101 dollar and up range finders , and on and on and on and soforth , next we will have the GPS class , then we will have the orange dot on the 12 ring class , then perhaps we will eventually have the automatic foam seeking infared hits only 12 ring bow class( for use with carbon arrows only ) , then you have the phase inhibitor ionic defuser flux capacitor class, , and the gyro`s only class ,,,,,,,,,,, :sad: . i could continue on , LMAO !!! but i dont want to give out to many ideas !!!!         




how bout this just go practice LMAO!!!!! :mg: :mg:


sometimes i crack myself up


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

fieldman steering completely clear of the backwards arrow thread and steered clear about the rantings and ravings of "after the fact" accusations of pencil whipping...so, OBT, don't even think of putting me to blame for any of that nonsense on THAT particular thread.

Notice I also said NOTHING on that thread when it came to people accusing other people and ADMITTING that it goes on all the time...of PACING OFF THE TARGETS at NATIONAL events.....

But, when it comes to TWO MINUTES for one shot...and 3 1/2 hrs by rule for 20 shots, and holding up umbrellas to shield the shooter from having their bowarm blown around in the wind, and looking like a billboard what with all the patches and supposed sponsor logos, and upwards of 4 hours at IBO to shoot TEN shots...

Then, you are darned straight correct...I will, as you un's call, it BASH THE HECK out of 3-D (although, IMHO, it is just expressing my OPINION on the subject) due to the HYPOCRITES that today think that kind of TIME is just peachy neat and OK...when only 8 to 10 years ago...those same people thought 4 or 5 hours for 112....that is ONE HUNDRED TWELVE shots was TOO LONG. And I will continue to call them HYPOCRITES too...

Those same HYPOCRITES used to complain and cry when THEY couldn't see a field target due to glare and let down and asked for a BASEBALL CAP to be held to shade the peep site....and now they want a FOUR FOOT DIAMETER umbrella to do the same job with....hypocrites.

Those same HYPOCRITES that felt that helping to mow a field course and then take 30 MINUTES to put up a set of field targets...that lasted for about a MONTH AFTER THE SHOOT...was TOO MUCH TIME to take.

But today, they think it is peachy neat to stake out, mow, clear, take out the stakes, pound them in, set up the animals for two days' use...and then turn right around on Sunday afternoon and take down the animals, pull up the stakes, and stow it all away...and have NOWHERE to practice...except to go out and shoot the FIELD COURSE that they think takes to long to maintain....or STAY IN THEIR BACK YARDS and then come and expect to pay the same fees as those that PAY THEIR DUES...and still want to qualify for the awards too.

FREELOADERS and HYPOCRITES.

There..you all asked for a BASHING by the fieldman...and that is only a "mild one" too... BASH>BASH>BASH>STIR>STIR>STIR.

Life is fun during a mid-week crisis...and OBT generated only a mild 2.8 on the Richter BASHING scale...hahahahahaha

field14


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## Ivorytooth (Jan 22, 2004)

But he did draw you out field14.  

Don't give your opinion (bash) over there in the "other" section or else you may be labeled something horrendous such as a twit.  LOL!


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## dee (Dec 27, 2004)

I thought this thread was about would you shoot 3-D if there was a rangefinder class.

Field14, take your medicine dude, you're starting to ramble...quit trying to hihjack the thread and get back on track.

Is that a yes or no...limit your answer to one word. Bet you can't do it. This is your big cnhance to prove ol' LD wrong. Just one word...yes...or...no...and then don't post on this thread any more.

Show me you have what it takes...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Nah, I had my pistola all loaded, fully drawn, and ready to fire....

OBT didn't hardly have to twist my wrist to get the release to trigger....(pun intended).

Better drawing me out than OBT being out drawing flies.... :tongue: :tongue: 

The great thing would be that, Maybe the fieldman could make like Mathew Quigley of the movie fame, "Quigley Down Under"...

I can see the response now......when the UMBIE was used to gain VICTORY....Fieldman Quigley says to the slain 3-Ders..."I said I had no use for an UMBIE....I never said I didn't know how to USE one."

field14 :mg: :wink: :angel:  :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## dee (Dec 27, 2004)

So...is that a NO???


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

I wouldn't shoot a range finder class but I guess I would also not be against it. I don't think it will EVER happen. As said it would lure too many shooters away from classes, divide and conquer.  

They won't even start a pro pins class.


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## rangeplayer (Sep 11, 2003)

*bowhunter357 or what ever!*

It has been a long time since I have posted on archerytalk for the simple reason that most of what is posted is just talking out your neck. Now you have made me get a new password to log back into the system just to make this post. Let me start but saying Dan is an great shooter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I think you should re-think your wish about putting money up with someone with a set of rangfinders. Now if you really want to loose your money that bad I will take you up on that offer whatever the price may be on any day. Now don't get scared and try and back your way out of this one, put your money on the line.  

Rangeplayer is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :secret:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rangefinder,

See my answering post on the other thread....

field14


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

rangeplayer......welcome back.....id be interested in seeing 357's answer to this thread now.....  no doubt danny is a great shot.....no doubt,no question.....but i got a range out back that says even some meritless shooters could put a run on dan the man with a rangefinder vs none.....

field....now come on....bashing the great sport of 3d because it offers everyone a chance to bask in the company of its own kind for hours on end....all to argue whether this log of an arrow pulled the line, cut the line, or merely touched the line....

you call the hypocrites of today hypocrites just because of umbie use or cause they learned patience of the game....now come on....there just hypocrites because they spew of being professional today on this venue vs that venue....when in all reality, the top level venue of today lives within a seedy gray area of dumping arrows to help this or that person make a team.....or for trying to avoid what they have predetermined to be a superior archer.....if there defeated before they shoot....they should just not go, instead of claiming to represent us in there little pitty party.....if dumping and avoiding competiton is representing....it sure aint me.....and yet some of the more seasoned veterans want to talk about whinning.....ill just let that slide instead of making a hypocrite out of it.....

now field.....you know darn well.....pacing is pacing.....heck, in our new national pastime, we use a pace car....so whats the big deal with archers just doing what TV exposure has done to show, pacing is cool  

now field....you wonder why field nationals arent up to par with those major 3d venues.....come on, it dont take rocket science to figure it out....you have ONE....thats right 1 stinkin major field shoot a year....and its a week long event, right smack dab in the middle of the work week....and yall wonder if you can do anything better to help kill the deal.....field archery is definately the funnest shoot ive shot.....but its complicated as heck....and if you dont shoot it with someone who understands it and willing to make sure the group does, who would ever come back....todays archers would rather watch you load your bow, shoot the wrong target or from the wrong stake and than tell you your score is a 0.....wow, that just sounds like so much fun.....dont it  

now i will say this about field....why in the world would anyone load a chair up with snacky cakes in field.....with the turn stand just round the corner to sit and eat after half way....now thats what im talking bout.....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

OBT,
THAT was one of your weakest posts of all time.....you be for slippin' and a slidin' young feller....

Now you dun hasta be more convincing that that..old fieldman wasn't born yesterday.....

But I will say, that if you are believin' whatcha are postin', then PT Barnum has a new favorite...the one, the only, OBT.....

And Fieldman Quigley could definitely take you down quickly...cuz, not only do I have no use for an umbie, I also have no use for a camp stool or for pickin' and a grinnin' and a jawin' between those single shots every 25 minutes or so......

Man, if you dun had to shoot more than ONE SHOT every 20 minutes at a 3-D shoot...they'd have to retrain you how to load the arrow...cuz you would certainly forget how......let alone draw the thang back, aim, and get a decent shot off...

I can see it all now.... A new rule comes out and to speed up shooting states that you MUST shoot at least ONE SHOT every 15 minutes instead of 22 to 25 minutes....and the purists say, 

"You want me to do WHAT? You have GOT to be kidding me? I can't possibly rest up faster than 20 minutes between each single shot....Do you realize how much energy I expend to shoot ONE SHOT every 25 minutes? You must think we are at a FIELD shoot where they shoot 4 shots in 2 or 3 minutes and 112 shots each for 4 people, score, pull, and walk between targets in under 5 hours....we 3-Ders NEED MORE TIME than that, cuz we be more serious and discriminatory than that." It takes us nearly 5 minutes alone to load and unload all our gear at each target, set up and take down our umbies, and count on our fingers and toes, for Pete's sake..WHAT are you tryin' ta do, turn this into a speed round like a field shoot or something?"

:shade: :shade: :shade: :wink: :wink: :wink: :teeth: :teeth: :teeth: 

field14


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

weakest posts.....well i did go out back and shoot a few 3d targets this evening.....and i have to admit....after pulling that strapping 3d bow at a whopping 55 pounds......once every 20 minutes (dont want to train off sequence-im sure you can appreciate that).....cuz you know, i gotta keep that speed up to make sure my JUDGING skills arent off to much :wink: 

and come on field show some simpathy for us 3ders.....you know darn well we have to bare eye the target a minute or two....than glass it another minute (dont want to miss that 12 ring)....than click our rangefinders...opps, i mean bino's just the right amount of turns.....than bare eye it again for only 30 seconds this time.....than bino it again.....than draw......let down and start over....you know, keep the same shot routine...... :tongue: 

well i think your getting it.....we are a very precise and 12 ring orientated bunch......

hey, if your not busy this weekend, come on out and join the gang in nelsonville :wink:


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

I am think about joining the ASA again, I was a member in 2003. I shot Metropolis this year. It was my first ASA event and I shot in the Open "C" class. I really like it. I would go to more if they were closer. The only reason, I went to Metropolis is because I have relatives in the area.

I am going to Nelsonville and will talk to a few friends. We usually camp together and see if they would like to move to the ASA. I simple do not have enough vacation and money to do both. If we decide to go we will probably do Illinois, PA and Tenn. 

But, a range finder class would definitely entice me.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

No can do Nelsonville this weekend....Absolutely hasta shoot our Illinois State Target tournament on Saturday and Sunday.

Me will gets ta shoot 90 arrows on Saturday and 90 arrows on Sunday. 4 minutes for SIX SHOTS each end. 30 arrows at 60 yards, 30 arrows at 50 yards, and 30 arrows at 40 yards each day.

Umbies can be used....safely BEHIND THE SHOOTING LINE...and only before and after the shooter has shot their arrows. We even can use LAWN CHAIRS for to sit on...BEHIND the shooting line....and SPOTTING SCOPES...

But the best part of it....we don't have to carry the umbies nor the lawn chairs...they have to stay put...BEHIND the shooting line and out of the way.

I'm gonna try and see if I can keep all my arrows in an area from the tomato line inwards to the hooter....and NO BLUEBERRIES. I'm findin' I'm becomin' a real "hot dog" these days what with shooting SIX GROUPS of .290 inches in diameter maximum on each end for each "group"....can you shoot that small and tight for six groups of six shots with your bow/arrow combination?

Supposed to be 95 degrees or hotter and little, if any wind...so it will be a real burner out there....dunno how may other "hot dogs" will fry.....

yun's all have good luck at Nelsonville, and don't strain to try to shoot more than one arrow every 25 minutes or so....don't want to throw off your natural shooting rhythm...and PACE YOURSELF, too (pun intended), since "everyone" is pacing these days...or at least that was what was being told on "the other" thread....of late.....

Have fun,

field14


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I think a range finder class would be a good idea. Why not be inclusive to increase attandance? A class for those who aren't good at judging yardage and don't want to bust arrows...not a bad idea!  

My personal preferance, of course, would be an Olympic style recurve class.  But now that would really be asking for too much!


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

olsenck said:


> I think a range finder class would be a good idea. Why not be inclusive to increase attandance? A class for those who aren't good at judging yardage and don't want to bust arrows...not a bad idea!
> 
> My personal preferance, of course, would be an Olympic style recurve class.  But now that would really be asking for too much!


geez what is it with you stickboy...give you a rope and now you think your a cowboy......


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

onebowtie said:


> geez what is it with you stickboy...give you a rope and now you think your a cowboy......


Indeed, my mutant compound friend...give me an inch, and I'll make it into a 70" recurve  :shade:


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*



onebowtie said:


> geez what is it with you stickboy...give you a rope and now you think your a cowboy......


-------------

Hey OBT sounds like your getting close to a refresher course on the apology tread.  

Unk :smile:

Ps oh you will be at Nelsonville hm hm Well Field i will keep a eye on him for you.  Now were going to see. Proof is in the pudding.  
Maybe i can get OBT to take a side crispy bet.Of course i will halft to pick a stand in.   

Unk :smile:


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Unk Bond said:


> -------------
> 
> Hey OBT sounds like your getting close to a refresher course on the apology tread.
> 
> Unk :smile:


lol....unk....not another apology thread.....not yet anyway...besides....i aint got no proof that stickboy has merit....


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

onebowtie said:


> lol....unk....not another apology thread.....not yet anyway...besides....i aint got no proof that stickboy has merit....


Merit...meritorious, notorious...I've got it all. Just ask anyone who knows me!


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

olsenck said:


> Merit...meritorious, notorious...I've got it all. Just ask anyone who knows me!



you reckon ole unk thinks im calling the thunder down on you olsey..... :tongue:


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*



onebowtie said:


> lol....unk....not another apology thread.....not yet anyway...besides....i aint got no proof that stickboy has merit....


-------------
Hey OBT you are taking a small paragraph from a fine post.And evading the [Ps] and the crispy :wink: 

Unk :angel:


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## Ivorytooth (Jan 22, 2004)

Unk doesn't realize that as a mutant, you get bit by your own on occasion.  It keeps us real.


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Unk Bond said:


> -------------
> Hey OBT you are taking a small paragraph from a fine post.And evading the [Pm] and the crispy :wink:
> 
> Unk :angel:


come on unk....i dont avoid.....am i missing a pm????? i am unaware of such crispy offer


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*



onebowtie said:


> come on unk....i dont avoid.....am i missing a pm????? i am unaware of such crispy offer


--------------
OBT to much :beer: reread it says Ps  

Unk :smile:


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Unk Bond said:


> --------------
> OBT to much :beer: reread it says Ps
> 
> Unk :smile:


i do admit...the cheerwine is strong..... :beer: and with all the good conversation ive had today.....things are a bit foggy to say the least.....

so i CATagorigly deny any wrong doing.....


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Unk Bond said:


> --------------
> OBT to much :beer: reread it says Ps
> 
> Unk :smile:


lol unk you tried to pull a fast one on me....lol....go read my quote from you....it wont edit out your "pm"......you almost had me....and i was almost ready to not pop the top of this last cheerwine


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

onebowtie said:


> you reckon ole unk thinks im calling the thunder down on you olsey..... :tongue:


Now tie, you've got to watch ol' unk. He's a step or two further ahead than he wants you to believe. :wink:


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

ttt


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

I get tired of reading these polls about a range finder class!! I think it is just hilarious the the yardage estimate group want to keep it unkown yardage but then want to shoot the fast bow possible because they can't guess the yardage right. 

I want this sport to be enjoyable to me, that why I do it. I don't like to chase arrows and have physical limitations that will never allow me to develop my yardage judging past 30 yards accurately.

However, I am sure it would be easier to turn on the NFAA to this problem, since they already shoot marked yardage, all they would have to do in put some 3D animals out instead. Let the ASA and IBO play by themselves.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I think ASA should go to marked yardage ranges for everyone. that way, the bulk of thier costomers wouldn't have to wear themselves out paceing and counting all day..


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Bees said:


> I think ASA should go to marked yardage ranges for everyone. that way, the bulk of thier costomers wouldn't have to wear themselves out paceing and counting all day..


Hay, I agree with that one!!!!!!!! But, don't give up their secrets!! :zip:


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

ttt


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

ttt


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## r302 (Apr 5, 2004)

*Rangefinders in the ASA?*

Why Not?
Archers with rangefinders are just archers wanting to shoot 3Ds for no other reasons than just for the fun of it.
I don't have any hidden agenda to change the ASA. I just want to be able to participate at known yardages, not necessarily compete or beat those 3D archers who wish to shoot unknown yardages.
I don't expect special treatment, just a place to enjoy 3Ds at their best.
I have no plans to secretly annouce the yardages to the archers wishing to estimate the yardages.
Let the rangefinders go last with no groups following behind them. That should solve any type of possibility of the other 3D estimators overhearing any conversation of yardages from the rangefinder's group.
A rangefinders division will bring out those old hard core spot archers and give an opportunity for the older archers, like me, with very bad eye sight to come out and find new life in archery with 3Ds in the ASA instead of destroying trees and busting rocks.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
I think it might surprise most 3D archers to know how many local clubs and even Pro Shops sponsoring 3D shoots who offer a rangefinder's division with their 3D shoots.
Here in New Mexico the rangefinder's number are slowing growing and we are seeing archers from the Field archer's group showing up in the rangefinder's division that have never been to a 3D shoot prior to the newly formed division.
Give it some thought and try it. :smile:


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

that would be so sweet to shoot from the looooooong stakes with my barely 200fps rig using a rangefinder...just counting how long it takes the arrow to hit the foam would be the most fun :teeth: 

just let me pay my money and put a big red X on my scorecard and let me be on my way


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## r302 (Apr 5, 2004)

*Duplicate Post*

If so, sorry about that!


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## alaskaarcher (Jul 5, 2005)

*new twist on this "concept"*

Instead of adding a class, change the rules in the supposedly true novice classes (such as bow nervous, er novice  ) the classes designed to entice folks to come play even though they may not have the experience or the high dollar equipment. Let those folks shoot known distance/range finder ranges, but put a cap on the winnings like other classes. Make it for pins only, if you want to shoot a slide bar come on in to the gauntlet with the rest of us. 

OR,

How many of us use a rangefinder when we hunt? so let those that shoot the hunting set up (TRUE hunting set up{no lens/slide bars etc}, but you can bring a pendulum sight & of course Mr Baker and his evil minions could set up an ever so interesting course to challenge the shooting skills since yardage won't be a factor much like when hunting) classes use the rangefinders. And again if you break it off then you move up.

Just a couple ideas instead of adding ANOTHER class. Just change the ones we have. 

Just an idea.


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

I would realy think about going. I have a job and don't have time to practice judging and shooting. This is a big handycap and with range finders we might get new sponsers of the shoots. More shooters in the divition more sponsers all a bad things?

My thing I love is when people say this is how I get ready for hunting. How so I dont think the equipment is the same. The other thing is when was the last time you had a animal that would stay there for about 5 to 10 min. for you to guess how far away and let you set your sight to shoot them.

Hope that people see it is about as far from hunting as anything I have ever seen other then you have a animal like target out there. I don't hate 3D I realy enjoy it for fun but if you can do anthing to make a sport grow I think it should be done.

Reo


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## bowbender7 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sounds good Reo. I agree, the reason I quit shooting much 3d is because I got tired of being beat by people I can outshoot but have more yardage talent or time to practice surveying than I do.

I bought bows and got involved in competitive archery for one reason - to shoot my bows. 

I respect the guys that can mix both shooting ability and yardage estimation but also know that to win 3d you have to practice judging. Its just not something I can justify when the SHOOTING part is what interests me.

Sean


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## r302 (Apr 5, 2004)

*Good post by Reo & Bowbender*

My post just rambled on and on, but you guys said it all. :thumbs_up


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Reo said:


> I would realy think about going. I have a job and don't have time to practice judging and shooting. This is a big handycap and with range finders we might get new sponsers of the shoots. More shooters in the divition more sponsers all a bad things?
> 
> My thing I love is when people say this is how I get ready for hunting. How so I dont think the equipment is the same. The other thing is when was the last time you had a animal that would stay there for about 5 to 10 min. for you to guess how far away and let you set your sight to shoot them.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree, the open classes in particular are just about as far from real hunting as they can get except for shooting at a foam 3D target. I have already decided to stop shooting the IBO and start shooting the ASA. I would enjoy shooting the rangefinder class more than the others because I like to shoot more than judge yardage. This is my basic reason for leaving the IBO, too little shooting and too much walking and climbing. I am too old to start abusing my body with exercise at this point.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Truth is*



Reo said:


> I would realy think about going. I have a job and don't have time to practice judging and shooting. This is a big handycap and with range finders we might get new sponsers of the shoots. More shooters in the divition more sponsers all a bad things?
> 
> My thing I love is when people say this is how I get ready for hunting. How so I dont think the equipment is the same. The other thing is when was the last time you had a animal that would stay there for about 5 to 10 min. for you to guess how far away and let you set your sight to shoot them.
> 
> ...


3D is still growing. People are attending and having a blast. Now 3d does relate to hunters more than competition archery (spots) and did get more average archers (hunters) into competition shooting. Im a good example, I would have never shot a competition if not for 3d. Just another type of archery. I think there is plenty of marked field if thatswhat folks want. Marked 3d yardage might pull more field shooters away from field, that I dont think is a good thing. Be carefull sometimes what you ask for!


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## Dave2 (Jan 24, 2003)

Deezlin: I really appreciate the walking in the IBO, it is about all the excercise I get and I need it in the worst way. It also makes for a much safer shoot, sometimes the ASA gets kinda scary, not bashing the ASA, it is a very good organized organization but sometimes their just not thinking when they set targets IMO>


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> 3D is still growing. People are attending and having a blast. Now 3d does relate to hunters more than competition archery (spots) and did get more average archers (hunters) into competition shooting. Im a good example, I would have never shot a competition if not for 3d. Just another type of archery. I think there is plenty of marked field if thatswhat folks want. Marked 3d yardage might pull more field shooters away from field, that I dont think is a good thing. Be carefull sometimes what you ask for!


Well for one, I am not have a blast and if there was any field competitions in the area I would be there in a heartbeat. Perhaps, the best way for field to get back into the game is to place some 3D target out and start shooting at them instead. I agree, if there is field archery in an area, it might pull a few of them to 3D, but I really believe that 3D will grow or at least maintain it popularity better if rangefinder classes were intoduced. 

If you don't get new blood in local clubs and even the organization, you will not have growth. Yes, if you add classes you may make certain classes smaller. But, the organization and club are bigger. I mean really if you want the organization to grow, you can't worry about what might happens to the other organizations.


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Dave2 said:


> Deezlin: I really appreciate the walking in the IBO, it is about all the excercise I get and I need it in the worst way. It also makes for a much safer shoot, sometimes the ASA gets kinda scary, not bashing the ASA, it is a very good organized organization but sometimes their just not thinking when they set targets IMO>


Well, I had a friend at Bedford who had an arrow come out of the sky and land about 2 feet from his foot. IMO, safety is up to the range people and how they set the targets, but most importantly the individual. It doesn't take a safety investigation to determine that this arrow came from someone skying the bow because he was drawing too much poundage trying to shoot unknown distances and had a premature release!!!!!

So is the IBO safer, NO!! Just spread out over half of hell's acres!! As a matter of fact, I have never seen a ranger when I was in an IBO event, at least in the ASA you have a few people looking at the shooters. I can go for walks anytime, I feel like it. But, I want to shoot and not be a certified mountain climber. If you need exercise that bad then I wouldn't try to walk the Hocking Hills especially on some of the washed out paths and trails they have. I live in Chillicothe and we have plenty of the same type of hills. Hay, I don't hunt them and why should I go and practice hunting them.


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> 3D is still growing. People are attending and having a blast. Now 3d does relate to hunters more than competition archery (spots) and did get more average archers (hunters) into competition shooting. Im a good example, I would have never shot a competition if not for 3d. Just another type of archery. I think there is plenty of marked field if thatswhat folks want. Marked 3d yardage might pull more field shooters away from field, that I dont think is a good thing. Be carefull sometimes what you ask for!


Maybe where you are located, but here 3D numbers are dropping off locally and there is NO field archery anywhere to be found. 3D is all there is and I think it needs to be expanded to attract more of the shooters back, and if rangefinders can help good. There is no way it can do anything negative to hurt the non-existant field archery in Tidewater area (biggest population center in VA). If anything, hopefully field will come back -- there are several of us pushing for it in the area. :smile:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Only one promblem*



RobVos said:


> Maybe where you are located, but here 3D numbers are dropping off locally and there is NO field archery anywhere to be found. 3D is all there is and I think it needs to be expanded to attract more of the shooters back, and if rangefinders can help good. There is no way it can do anything negative to hurt the non-existant field archery in Tidewater area (biggest population center in VA). If anything, hopefully field will come back -- there are several of us pushing for it in the area. :smile:


Twice as many classes and it will require more ranges . Dont see it happening in ASA anytime soon. I never hear anyone talking about it at ASA events. Thats what the simms range is.  Call and talk with Mike Terrell, he and his staff are the ones that have to do the extra ranges.


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Twice as many classes and it will require more ranges . Dont see it happening in ASA anytime soon. I never hear anyone talking about it at ASA events. Thats what the simms range is.  Call and talk with Mike Terrell, he and his staff are the ones that have to do the extra ranges.


Why do you have to have extra ranges? I don't understand that logic. Different times maybe. I would think all the rangefinder shooters would be in the same group, but why have seperate ranges? Yes, if you have more people you will have to have more ranges or more shooting time. But, if you want to grow, you are going to have to face that problem anyway.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Times*



Deezlin said:


> Why do you have to have extra ranges? I don't understand that logic. Different times maybe. I would think all the rangefinder shooters would be in the same group, but why have seperate ranges?


Its so tight now its crowded. Yes it would take more ranges, thats for sure.
Call ASA and they can explain how tight it is to get done on Sunday now. Some groups are having to shoot all 40 in one day.

Now lets bring up the fact everyone will be allowed to carry rangefinders on the courses. That will darn sure cause some stirrs. Rangefinder class will have to be on another course, thats pretty obvious and the reasons.

I posted at the ASA website just for you rangefinder wannabees. Maybe you will get a answer there. Your not going to get it here.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

What the heck is WRONG with more people coming to a shoot? Does ASA and IBO have this sense of urgency that MORE PEOPLE or the potential of MORE PEOPLE is a bad thing?

Or is it that they have their "private club" already built and don't want to get any newbies with new and innovative ideals into the game?

Or is it that they don't REALLY want to expand the game or improve it?

More ranges? MAYBE, but then they already NEED more ranges to cut back the overcrowding and LONG TIME PERIODS waiting around anyways!

Years back the biggest complaint for FIELD shooting was TAKING TOO LONG to shoot 112 arrows - - 5 hours is too much, we always heard.

So NOW....you have the SAME THING in 3-D, but everyone (hypocrites) thinks it is peachy clean and there isn't a "problem' with it taking so long???? 3 1/2 hours for 20 shots isn't uncommon, and 4 hours for TEN shots has happened at IBO events...probably due mostly to OVERCROWDING...and NOT ENOUGH RANGES.

Well, MORE RANGES are probably long overdue....since nobody wants to take the bull by the horns and ENFORCE those time limits to the letter...TWO minutes is TWO minutes, and YOUR two minutes starts when the shooter before you has launched his arrow....GET OFF MY STAKE, so I can shoot.

But....it seems like they want the shooters to police themselves...yeah, right....it isn't gonna happen.

Here is another thought....field shooting shoots at least two abrest all nearly every target...and FOUR ABREAST every chance they get. 

Answer this? WHY on earth can't the 3-D ranges be set up to shoot TWO at a TIME on the stake(s)? Those shooting lanes are hardly ever THAT NARROW that two at a time can't step up and shoot....Don't give me this "angle and arrow damage stuff"...the angles would NOT be that tight if one person was on each side of the stake or only a foot or two apart.

Time per target cut in HALF! J

That is a suggestion I've been pondering for quite some time...TWO SHOOTERS at a time instead of one....speed up the process big time....

field14


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Hey field*



field14 said:


> What the heck is WRONG with more people coming to a shoot? Does ASA and IBO have this sense of urgency that MORE PEOPLE or the potential of MORE PEOPLE is a bad thing?
> 
> Or is it that they have their "private club" already built and don't want to get any newbies with new and innovative ideals into the game?
> 
> ...


Its field that needs more shooters. Maybe they should get 3d targets and place them by the field tartgets. Makes more sense than ASA creating more headaches and allowing rangefinders onto the ranges. It will not create that many more shooters!
DB


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

DB, I starting shooting the full ASA pro-am tour in 1998. And one thing that I know for a fact is that ASA's numbers are NOT up. I have also been an Area Rep, State Rep or Regional Director for ASA for the past 5 years. So, I am not just typing bs here. I do agree that on the pro-am level that you would need a seperate range for the range finder class. But you wouldn't need to have double the amount of classes. Two classes would be enough to test the waters. Mens Range Finder and Womens Range Finder.


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## spicman (Dec 1, 2003)

Pretty narrow-minded point of view, one that will be the demise of archery if people don't wake up. 

It is all about attracting new shooters into the venue (not excluding them) to keep the sport growing not stagnating like it seems to be currently doing.




my thoughts exactly!!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*N2bows*



n2bows said:


> DB, I starting shooting the full ASA pro-am tour in 1998. And one thing that I know for a fact is that ASA's numbers are NOT up. I have also been an Area Rep, State Rep or Regional Director for ASA for the past 5 years. So, I am not just typing bs here. I do agree that on the pro-am level that you would need a seperate range for the range finder class. But you wouldn't need to have double the amount of classes. Two classes would be enough to test the waters. Mens Range Finder and Womens Range Finder.


If you have been the regional rep, why havnt you got Mike Terrell to start it. No narrow minded. Most here dont understand what it takes for Mike and his crew to set up what they do now. Not easy. Go ahead and place range finders for everyone to carry and watch the spotties talk about cheating in 3d then. Its not as easy as all you talk like it is. Many feel we have way to many class's now.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel,
It still sounds and reads that you "oppose" the expansion of the current format to TRY to get MORE shooters to come to the events. You insist that 3-D EVERYWHERE is on the RISE, in spite of numerous people on here telling you just the opposite....In YOUR area of the planet, this MIGHT be true...but in MOST other areas of the USA...the OPPOSITE is true.

I notice you chose to ignore this one too from my previous post:

""Answer this? WHY on earth can't the 3-D ranges be set up to shoot TWO at a TIME on the stake(s)? Those shooting lanes are hardly ever THAT NARROW that two at a time can't step up and shoot....Don't give me this "angle and arrow damage stuff"...the angles would NOT be that tight if one person was on each side of the stake or only a foot or two apart.

Time per target cut in HALF! J

That is a suggestion I've been pondering for quite some time...TWO SHOOTERS at a time instead of one....speed up the process big time....""

WHY? Are you also admitting that you just love to shoot one arrow every 20 to 25 minutes and if you are shooting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th in your group, you get 4, 6, or 8 MINUTES to figure out you ONE SHOT?

Is there a PROBLEM with helping to speed up the shooting of the course by putting TWO SHOOTERS on the stake (one on each side) at a time? I don't want to hear the "angles will trash up arrows" routine excuse...you are ALREADY trashing up arrows by shooting ONE shooter at a time anyways...

So....WHY NOT shoot TWO shooters on the stake at a time and cut the amount of time it takes to shoot the course IN HALF, and get it BACK to a reasonable amount of time to shoot 10, 20, or 40 shots, instead of the MARATHON of 3 1/2 hours for TWENTY shots, and in some instances IBO, 4 HOURS for TEN SHOTS

This would put a huge dent in your "we would need MORE ranges" excuse too...since you would be putting thru people in HALF the amount of time by shooting two abreast than it now takes !

Of course, you don't WANT MORE SHOOTERS...at least you POST that way...and I certainly cannot imagine anyone that loves the sport as much as you say you do.. TO DENOUNCE anything that MIGHT have the potential of getting more shooters into the game and KEEP THEM THERE. But yet you INSTIST that 3-D is PERFECT and doesn't need some improvements, and that 3-D has PLENTY of shooters and doesn't NEED to try to draw more.

And you concern yourself with the workload and more courses that probably will only be necessary WHEN the INCREASE of shooters comes about...but then you don't want that INCREASE in shooters, cuz there are "plenty of them now"....doesn't make sense....it will NOT LAST FOREVER.....if 3-D doesn't start to adapt and make some changes and try to draw in more interest...the ONLY WAY is DOWN in participation as people get fed up with taking FOREVER to shoot only 10, 20, 30, or 40 shots....

field14


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> Daniel,
> It still sounds and reads that you "oppose" the expansion of the current format to TRY to get MORE shooters to come to the events. You insist that 3-D EVERYWHERE is on the RISE, in spite of numerous people on here telling you just the opposite....In YOUR area of the planet, this MIGHT be true...but in MOST other areas of the USA...the OPPOSITE is true.
> 
> I notice you chose to ignore this one too from my previous post:
> ...


Field 
Its not easy to have enough ranges now. Now who is going to decide which class gets to use rangefinders? Woman, men, youth. Far to many class's now. I posted at ASA where all you rangefinder guys should be asking your questions and calling Maike Terrell. I have heard this 3d wont last for five years now. Give it a break.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Here what ASA says on there website*

The rangefinder or known distance class has been a constant topic of discussion at all levels of the ASA leadership for the last 3 years that I know of. It is brought up and kicked until it quits moving and then a couple of folks will boot it again just for good measure.

It will be discussed in detail again this year and if it's time for the class/division then it will happen.

Dee

Now go voice your opionions there. Now Ill bet half the gang here asking for it never go attend if they had range finder class.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel,
Are you proposing that we NOT DISCUSS anything of this nature on this forum because it "doesn't please you" and doesn't have the place for it here on AT? THAT is what your post sounds like.

Furthermore....IF YOU WOULD JUST GO BACK AND READ THE FIRST POST...

you will see that THIS THREAD was STARTED by a REGIONAL DIRECTOR of the ASA!

So please don't give us this "you rangefinder guys" stuff...at least not on this thread.

I also thought the ASA would LISTEN to membership, and POTENTIAL membership...which I think was why THIS poll may have been started....

Why, in ASA, does ONE PERSON apparently seem to make ALL the calls, and say yes or no to ANY PROPOSAL?

It doesn't matter if half the people responding to this poll show up or not! The POINT is that if you look at the current results AND compare them to the previous poll's results...they are VERY COMPARABLE. Perhaps not a 1.0 correlation, but the correlation of the results is probably high...within the confines of course of the polling population.....

LOOK AT THE RESULTS thus far....and if only 10% of those responding showed up, that is 10% MORE than you have right now....heck, even 5% is more than you have....and ASSUMING that the poll is a reasonable indication of the archery population IN GENERAL...

It isn't the CURRENT 3-Ders you are after...it is the POTENTIAL to get MORE 3-D shooters...

And you guys seem to be saying 3-D doesn't NEED MORE SHOOTERS...that there is enough already...the PRIVATE CLUB syndrome and shutting off potential customers....that is asking for trouble in the future. The binge 3-D is on right now will NOT LAST FOREVER...and something has to be done to entice MORE participation and quit the "friendly clique club" of 3-Ders...or things will continue to decline.

You STILL never addressed TWO SHOOTERS at the stake at the same time....

AGAIN...choosing to IGNORE something you probably don't favor or LIKE....cuz then you'd have to shoot MORE than ONE arrow every 25 minutes or so...and might get to shoot TWO SHOTS in 12 minutes or so....egads....earth shattering.....

But EVERYTHING is PERFECT in 3-D...don't NEED more shooters, "risk increasing the classes by distributing them further", "NEED separate ranges (this is really doubtful if managed correctly and RULES ENFORCED FOR A CHANGE).....

You said it yourself...field needs more shooters, NOT 3-D...that says a mouthful about the attitudes of many....and it isn't just the 3-Ders that have this "private club" attitude either.....

Good heavens, I hope that you NEVER make a statement like this on the course, or at a club meeting...."we don't need you" is an INSTANT turnoff, and that is exactly what you are saying to the subject of this thread.....WE DON'T NEED OR WANT YOU, so STAY AWAY." That really encourages new people to come into the fold....

field14


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Field 14*

Talk away. It has no bearing at all unless your willing to convince the promoter to do it. Thats my point. Bottomeline, there doers and talkers. If I wanted marked yardage in 3d, I would be writing Mike Terrell or talking to him personally. Maybe even became a ASA rep.

I like ASA like it is and dont feel anything is broke in 3d.

So discuss away and maybe oneday it will happen.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel,
I've done my DOING part and have sent informaton to the Regional Directors thru the starter of THIS THREAD....

NEITHER of us want MARKED yardages in 3-D...THAT, IMHO would make it way too much EXTRA work in course setups, and also REQUIRE separate ranges for marked and unmarked...which is NOT the proposal for the rangefinder division AT ALL...

Again, you misread and misinterpret...cuz it evidently isn't to your liking or "3-D is FINE the way it is and doesn't NEED anything...

NO VENUE in archery is so peachy clean and neat that it doesn't NEED something. NONE, NADA, rien du tout, zero, zilch.

3-D is NOT perfect just the way it is....just read the numerous threads on the subject...from TIME, to PACING the targets, to 'different interpretations' or "clarifications" of the rules, to too many divisions, to PAYOUTS, and on and on and on...THEREFORE, contrary to what you say...3-D is NOT FINE JUST THE WAY IT IS...and neither are the other venues either.

That attitude can ultimately destroy the sport.....

field14


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

DB, Don't think I havn't been talking to Mike T. And every one of the other directors and reps too. And I agree that there are to many classes in ASA too. There are several classes that need to be eliminated or combined. And I will bring this up at the next meeting also.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Field 14*

3D isnt broke by all means.

Once agian, why dont field place some 3d targets and help it grow. That would attract more to field shoots and maybe they would want to shoot field even after seeing it. That my point. Makes more sense to me.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Dan, 
You OBVIOUSLY don't get around...field shoots have been going with 3-D targets placed instead of the paper animals in MANY areas for YEARS...you were just never around to do that sort of thing.....

Best part is that I see very FEW 3-D shooters that try field for REAL and don't like it and comment..."Geez, I get to shoot lots of arrows and see if my FORM is on or not." I learned a lot about shooting today shooting that FIELD round.

The ISSUE is NOT "you field shooters TRY 3-D's on the FIELD courses." 

The issue is POTENTIALLY INCREASING participation at 3-D shoots.

In your eyes (must be blindfolded) you keep saying that 3-D isn't BROKEN and is FINE the way it is....boy, is your head in the sand complete with BLINDERS and EAR PLUGS....

Again....NOTHING is PERFECT in any venue of Archery...and 3-D has some serious complaints coming out...but of course, you probably skim over those complaints as BASHING instead of READING what they are saying...


field14


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## dee (Dec 27, 2004)

n2bows said:


> DB, Don't think I havn't been talking to Mike T. And every one of the other directors and reps too. And I agree that there are to many classes in ASA too. There are several classes that need to be eliminated or combined. And I will bring this up at the next meeting also.


Don't even go there. ASA has 19 amatuer classes (including 3 classes for kids under 12).

IBO has 29 amatuer classes and NFAA has about 56 classes because they break each class down into women, men, adult, kids, cubs, youth, ********, yankees...I don't know how many FITA has but it has to be more than 19.

ASA has 3 Mens Open Classes and 3 Mens Pins classes each seperated by experience level, equipment type and yardage. This allows for a graduation up the ladder.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Good point made at ASA*

If they dont have a range finder class at the local levels. Hope does anyone feel its going to work on pro am level. The local clubs should give it a try and see if its successfull and then ASA would take a hard look at what members are successfull with on local level.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

IMHO, that is working from the bottom UP....and many, many clubs try to DUPLICATE what the NATIONAL level organizations do at their tournaments.

So, my OPINION...if the NATIONAL level ASA and IBO start doing SOMETHING with a "rangefinder division"...many of the local clubs will follow suit just to "keep up with the Joneses".

Over the many years I've been in the game, and other competitive games as well, it is uncanny how the ripple effect from the TOP DOWN works better than the reverse.

The NATIONAL orgs need to be the LEADERS, not the followers.....

Many competitive shooters want to have their local shoots mimic what could go on at the BIG EVENTS...so, if the BIG EVENTS don't do this or that, then the local clubs aren't too likely to do it either.

There are exceptions, and I'm finding out through many contacts, that the rangefinder division on a LOCAL level is much more popular and being utilized much more than I had initially thought!

The other case is that in very few instances are there separate stakes or separate ranges...but MOST do keep the rangefinder people in groups by themselves and NOT MIXED with people that are estimators. Many send those groups out first or last too...which isn't a real problem, since IMHO, the rangefinder people would most likely progress faster...so IMHO, sending them out FIRST might be a better option.

Right now, also few clubs are having the rangefinder division as an awards division. However, that, too, is changing in some areas. Around here, rangefinder people are permitted, but it is a "FUN" class only----for now.

If you send them out LAST, then they'll catch the groups in front of them and the end result would be either a lot of "shooting thru" which would mix the estimators groups followed and preceeded by 'rangefinder' groups... OR a lot of whining over "what is the hold up" and why don't these guys (or gals) hurry up."

But polling the shooters already at the national shoots isn't giving the honest answers simply because those people are already there to shoot as 'estimators' and therefore are biased to leaving things alone...they don't WANT change, cuz it pulls them out of their comfort zone....they feel that since they are there, everything is 3-D is FINE just the way it is...that is, until they get home and THINK ABOUT IT...then the stuff starts to bother them a bit and they are more vocal about it.

field14

field14


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

DB, Very few things have started at the local level then moved up to the pro-am level. It almost always starts at the pro-am level and filters down to the local level. Local clubs want to emulate what the pro-ams are doing to bring in the shooters that go to the pro-ams.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Thats not my quote*



n2bows said:


> DB, Very few things have started at the local level then moved up to the pro-am level. It almost always starts at the pro-am level and filters down to the local level. Local clubs want to emulate what the pro-ams are doing to bring in the shooters that go to the pro-ams.



Thats how ASA does it. Now go read the thread at ASA. I got you guys an answer from them. Yes guys it often does happen at the local level first also according to ASA Rep. Im just a messenger. I have made my point clear and really dont see it happening.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel,

You STILL don't get it! N2Bows, I believe, is an ASA Regional Director...I think he KNOWS how the ASA does it! However, it is also obvious that some directors are also not into the mold of things either..no different than the NFAA...SOME want change, but the die-hards want nothing to do with changing ANYTHING..they think everything is hunky dorey...besides, CHANGING STUFF means extra work.....

READ things, will ya...and don't draw conclusions with the blinders on.

This is the SECOND time this has been brought up concerning N2Bows...

field14


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Field 14*



field14 said:


> Daniel,
> 
> You STILL don't get it! N2Bows, I believe, is an ASA Regional Director...I think he KNOWS how the ASA does it! However, it is also obvious that some directors are also not into the mold of things either..no different than the NFAA...SOME want change, but the die-hards want nothing to do with changing ANYTHING..they think everything is hunky dorey...besides, CHANGING STUFF means extra work.....
> 
> ...



Once again you dont get it. That came from the horses mouth. Right from the ASA website. I shoot with the Three state rep in my area all the time ( help run the Okla chapter with them) and think I know a little about how the ASA runs things. You on the other hand just seem to push everyone buttons and insist this is the next great wonder to archery and many of us certainly dont agree. ASA is one that has disscussed this to death (many times) with no one showing any reason to do it. Its there association and not yours, I think they know what there doing. They do it quite well. Change is not always a good thing, unlike you think!
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

DB,
Just making the point AGAIN, that this thread was started by an ASA Regional DIRECTOR...not just someone that "wants the rangefinder division".

And, I was also making the point that N2Bows, being an ASA regional director also knows what HE is talking about too....

There is most likely a pretty good reason why and ASA Regional Director started THIS POLL THREAD....wouldn't you think so?

I don't care if you shoot with the Almighty himself every weekend or not....I still am of the OPINION that if some things are not ADDED to the ASA and the IBO to make them more lucrative or SOMETHING NEW isn't incorporated, it is going to become "old hat" and the same old thing shoot in and shoot out, and thus participation is going to DROP, and people are going to start to pee and moan more and more...and in SOME instances, that is exactly what is happening once people are done with a shoot, get home, and ponder what happened.

If the leadership and die-hards don't lend an open ear to things, make some changes and additions...then things can only go downhill...

And again...things are NOT PERFECT in the ASA, IBO, or ANY venue of archery...contrary to what you seem to think...

field14


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*ASA is fine*

Sorry you feel its not. Shame someone that never attends the shoots has such an opionion of how the ASA is doing! I dont attend IBO so dont have an opionion on how there doing.

Now there are many regional reps and he is entitled to his opionion and he did post at ASA and Ill be interested in seeing what they say next. I felt they gave an honest answer and said have disscussed this many times. I was told that is true. No one is trying to not do the right thing. Members of the ASA can voice there opionions and enough do, maybe they will get the rangefinder class or class's.

There are some changes coming next year, that I know. ASA is always looking at new ways to make 3d more enjoyable and Im sure if they feel this was a profitable call they would make the call. 

Illinois was great and ASA did another fantastic job.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

> since nobody wants to take the bull by the horns and ENFORCE those time limits to the letter...TWO minutes is TWO minutes, and YOUR two minutes starts when the shooter before you has launched his arrow....GET OFF MY STAKE, so I can shoot.


Well...........as the biggest nobody on these boards (ask OBT, he will tell ya), I do take the bull by the horns...........I enforce the time limits at our local shoot..........and I now have shooters that will not come back because of it.............I have upset more than one shooter at the national shoots for enforcing said time limits.........now if everyone would do what this nobody does, things would go much easier.

Now, for the 2 at a time on the stakes thingy. Yes, many of the shooting lanes are so narrow there is no way physically possible to put 2 people shooting on one stake at a time. There have been numerous shoots this year where the only person that could se the target was the individual on the stake..........girth alone would prevent many folks from being on the same stake at the same time as myself...........also, there is that little cumbersome rule about the shooter having to touch the stake when taking a shot.......kinda hard for 2 people to be on the stake at the same time there........Personally, I would change the rules on the time limits........and make them much shorter, but then I would not be very popular.......which really does not matter, since I am loosing popularity every day.......



> besides, CHANGING STUFF means extra work.....


And just who will do this extra work???????????the 3 volunteers we have to beg on the local level to show up on work days??????heck, we can get 150 to show up and shoot, but only 3 or 4 to show up to work.........please, I beg you, do not increase the work load or it will be down to only 1 person doing all the work, then where do we go???????????????nobody to setup, nobody to tear down, nobody to be the range official, nobody to work the signup booth, nobody to fill up the water jugs.........someone has to do it...add work, and nobody will be left, and I ain't working alone........

I am all for getting new folks to these shoots..........but range finders is the smallest % of why people don't show up.........the guys that are not showing up are not on AT, they are Joe Blow Bowhunter that has probably never seen a Vegas Face, and a 3D is what he puts in the backyard to fling arrows at........showing up on the weekends when so many other things are going on is not going to happen.......3D archery is a foreign concept to them.......the real question is how do we get them involved????????

I have my answer, I am going after the kids...........this weekend I am personally escorting a Boy Scout Troop around our course at no cost to them.......I am providing the bows and arrows, all they have to do is show up........they have agreed to be the last group out, and as such, it will delay my guys pulling targets.........solution?????? In order to get the troopers out, I will probably be pulling all targets alone.....so it goes, but worth the effort if a few of the 20 kids pick up the sport permanently........

What then???????????????if I can get this Troop, then they can spread the word to the rest of the troops......hopefully by next year I can attract 5 troops and establish them as 3Ders..........then, just maybe, they will drag their folks out, and what do you know, there is the possibility of growth that we all seek.......Work? You bet, but I am willing to put forth the effort......

What else can we do???????I have received 3 calls this week from families interested in archery, but they own no bows..........you guessed it, I am escorting them around the course and helping them in any way possible........once again, if I can draw them in maybe they will come forever, and then maybe bring friends.........unfortunately, due to the weather this week, my 4 or 5 dependable members that are always there to help on Sunday will be working, some in FL, some in GA areas that were affected by the storm........

Parts of the problems as I see them, speaking from around here talking to literally hundreds of bowhunters every year at archery shops in this area are:
1. Cost of gas
2. Family things on the weekend (ball, picinics, whatever, just good old family time)
3. Time...........as in it takes too much
4. It is not fun
5. "The guys that shoot around here are "stuck up" and will not let us shoot with them." 
6. What 3D shoot or what is 3D.

So, what do we do? Where do we go? Does anyone honestly believe rangefinders will be the salvation of 3D? In all honesty, we are not going after the "spotty nation." With so many spot shoots conflicting with 3D shoots, we will not grab them for long.......we need joe bowhunter........

We need to bring the family environment back into 3D. We need to bring the fun back into 3D. Any club that gloats over the number of arrows lost or broken on a target has it all wrong. We need to promote better, an area that most clubs are lacking in. We need to enforce the rules.

Maybe rangefinders would bring a few more shooters. But, would we loose some in the process? If so, is the tradeoff worth it? We both know there are some die-hards that would not come out.

The real question is just how do we attract the non-target archers and families?


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

I don't know why there always has to be a tifft about change. I think that if we had to many archers and more money than we could ever want to shoot for then maybe we shouldn't look at change. Look at silly guys that play a game on ice. They thought they didn't want change well they may of killed there sport over not looking at the big picture. 

I do know that one of the biggest shoots in the country is the Wester trial shoot and all that it is a field round with 3ds at known distances. I think that if range finders were put in that class would become the biggest because people want to be in the class that shoots the highest scores. That is just how most pros are that are competitive. 

Just a thought 
Reo


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Reo,
Therein lies a MAJOR obstacle...the current "wannabee" top shooters have a FEAR that the other division MIGHT overtake them in due time...and that means a huge dip into their, so far, "secure" pocket books....

They simply don't want to chance it that their "advantages" may well cease to exist and many will have to knuckle under.

However, the best of the best...well, IMHO, they would still be on top or near the top regardles...because they are THAT GOOD at hitting what they are aiming at and making no excuses about it. The best of the best 3-D shooters (the CONSISTENT ones) have certainly proven that when they have come to the TARGET venues such as Vegas, Indoor Nationals, and Atlantic City...those "cats" can SHOOT!

So, I don't think you'd hear much from the top cats...it is the wannabee top cats that probably would grumble and whine the most...everyone likes having an advantage...and don't want to give it up.

There are those that haven't been beaten, and there are those that are going to get beaten...and EVERYONE falls into category 2 sooner or later...and MOST sooner than later, hahahahaha.

Well, folks, I know you sure don't have anything to fear from the 'fieldman'..since he doesn't really care about the winning and losing anyways...but the FUTURE of the game...there is where the concern lies with the fieldman. 

I always figure that if so and so doesn't whip my butt...someone else WILL...so let's shoot the best we can that day and get on with it...

So, don't tell me to come on down and "play the game"....I'll do that when, where, and how I want, all WITHIN the confines of the rules. Everyone pays the same entry fee, right...so shoot 'em YOUR way (within the confines of the rules) and I'll shoot 'em mine...but don't you be for DIGGIN' IN to MY two minutes (or one minute, whatever)...get your butt off MY stake when it is MY turn to shoot. And if I trip over your stool...it will become a football, and we'll see if I can make a "field goal" or not.

field14


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