# PA Game Commission In Lawsuit!



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Got this from the MSNBC website. Maybe the truth will finally come out.

ThePittsburghChannel.Com
Pennsylvania hunters are making some serious accusations. One organization is suing the state, claiming the whitetail deer population is being reduced to improve the health of forests and increase timber sales. 

The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania's lawsuit says the number of deer across the state has fallen in the past five years from 1.5 million to fewer than 750,000. 

The group is warning that current hunting regulations might lead to the decimation of the deer herd. 

The defendants in the lawsuit are the state's Game Commission, the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, and Gov. Ed Rendell.


----------



## FOORHOYT (Mar 10, 2005)

*Yeah*

its about time someone did something!!!! i would love to see the hunters get to control or at least get to vote on the game laws. the game commission has to many chiefs and not enough indians, to many people telling them what they have to do, legislators, insurance companys just to name a few. and they get away with denying everything they do and no one holds them accountable for it, can i say coyote! and soon the mountian lions! but the game commission never did anything yeah right! you should have seen the look on the local game commission officer's face when i showed him the pictures of the mountian lion tracks in breezewood pa! he did not have to much to say other than where was that and can i get copies to show my boss! that really make me wonder what other kind of bs they are going to try to ram down the throats of the pa hunter! just my opinion
thanks
rj
__________________


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

You honestly don't believe that the PA game commission introduced coyotes to PA do you? If you do, then you need to understand that coyotes are one of the most resilient species around. They can live on a variety of food sources and survive in socially or independently. The coyote is one of the few animals found virtually everywhere. I do not disagree with dahmer, but I don't credit the PA game commission to the existence of coyotes.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Unified is a disgrace! :thumbs_do


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

PAGC introduced coyotes? 

Do you have ANY PROOF to back that absurd claim?

Also, can you point me to some info on insurance companies lobbying ANYONE to lower deer densities?

The truth is that the insurance companies just don`t care! They have an assignable cause for claims, so they can legally adjust rates in areas where deer/car collisions are more prevalent.

You are buying into old wives tales with this stuff.


----------



## FOORHOYT (Mar 10, 2005)

*wrong*

wrong, two years ago in southern bedford county i saw a coyote that was killed in there and it had a tag in each ear. when the numbers were ran one was to the pa game commission which had no comment and the other was to a game farm in colorado which said the only info that they had is that coyote was sold to state farm insurance company 2 years prior!!
so what else do you want
thanks
rj


----------



## FOORHOYT (Mar 10, 2005)

*gary ault*

why don't you ask gary ault why he resigned early, his paycheck from the insurance company was bigger than he thought, now that is not supported just my opinion. but if you go to body shops in my area and ask how much there deer hits are down? i bet you will be surprised!!
thanks 
rj


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Do I belive the PGC introduced the coyote, NO! But sorry, the PGC is bowing to outside influence on management, of money, not wildlife. They keep claiming that kids need to be introduced to hunting to keep it alive. NOTHING will dicourage a kid more than to take him deer hunting than to have him go days, especially the first day of gun season, and not see a deer or trying to tell him why that buck he saw had to be passed up. Want to argue the point, then try this scenario. I don't know how much 3-D experience you have but the VERY FIRST time you shot, did you go to the IBO World Championships and shoot in the PRO CLASS? No, and how is a kid suposed to get "experience" harvesting deer if he has to go maybe a couple years before he can even shoot one. Deer hunting in general is becoming about money and status and the people in charge wiil do what it takes to get their share of the pie. Maybe the best thing to do is get rid of record books.


----------



## FOORHOYT (Mar 10, 2005)

*I Agree*

we may disagree on some things but we can agree on that the younger generation is going to have it alot harder if the deer herd keeps going the way it has. not fair!! they can only increase the price of hunting licence as long a the older people will buy them. what are they going to do when it is time for the younger generation to start buying those outragous hunting licence and there is no one left to buy? they will not be able to raise the price again!
thanks
rj


----------



## dbowers (Mar 24, 2004)

Guys I have seen this kinda thing happen in other states. Like the fala said above its not all the PGC fault. Remember that old sayin sh*t rolls down hill? Well thats kinda what it is; the PGC gets pressure from the other PA state governements and have to follow orders.
Do I like what they're doing? No not at all, but suing them isn't the answer. The antis are goin to use this as fuel and say the the PGC or other GC are not doing their job and not worth having around. This has been a long time agenda of their..to get rid of the game comissions.
The hunters and sportpeople of this state need to get together and figure something out.


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

I seriously doubt that the legislature dictated some of the crap the PGC put in place. Like which counties were 3-point and which were 4-point, restricting jr and sr hunters, introducing all the special days and seasons into archery season. Everybody wants to blame the legislature, except for approval for license fee hikes and new license fees, the PGC is a government unto itself. Politicians on the House Fish and Game Cmt. have wanted to change some things that they get voter complaints about, the PGC does nothing because they don't have to.


----------



## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

I see the problem is more with the PA hunters than with the PGC. I lived most of my life in SW PA and still return there to hunt with my family each archery season. Last 3 years there have been the best I have had. Seen more buck in past 4 years than I did in previous 20. 

I think it is rediculous that kids and military are exempt from the restrictions. I hunted my first 6 years there without seeing a buck each season, let along getting a shot at one (this included rifle season). Didn't discourage me at all. The only reason that you feel a kid needs to get "a buck" is because of that old PA hunter mentality and the pressure the older hunters put on the kid.

Even when I started to see more bucks several years ago, I never shot at little spikes, 4-point, or basket racked deer. 

I will say that I had never seen or heard a coyote until 2 years ago. Now they are all over the place.

But Turkeys in that part of the state weren't around when I grew up there and they are abundant now.

There are a lot more bucks around now than before, just have to keep the morons from shooting a small one and leaving it lay because it doesn't meet requirement. The guy who bought my old house there found 3 6-points left during gun season. Also many guys shoot any racked deer and have the kid tag it because it didn't meet restrictions.

If the hunters in PA would abide and the poicies were 100% for everyone, things would get better.

I drive up there a few time each year and I still see way more dead deer along the roads in that short stretch of I79 in Greene and Washington Counties than the entire rest of the trip. Last October, I counted them and averaged about 1 per mile (that I saw). There were 6 dead deer between Washington and Houston on 79 (only a couple miles).


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

wrong, two years ago in southern bedford county i saw a coyote that was killed in there and it had a tag in each ear. when the numbers were ran one was to the pa game commission which had no comment and the other was to a game farm in colorado which said the only info that they had is that coyote was sold to state farm insurance company 2 years prior!!
so what else do you want
thanks
rj


Dude, with the above statement, you have INSTANTLY destroyed any credibility you may have had on this subject.

I have had this discussion with several people, both via the net, and in person. Invariably, the storyteller has eventually admitted that they were passing on a second hand story.

The truth of the matter is….NOBODY ever witnessed any tags in the ears of a coyote killed in PA, and traced them back to a game farm in Colorado, because it simply NEVER happened!

If State Farm, or any other insurance company purchased animals, and subsequently released them on public or private land, they would lose a lawsuit of astronomical proportions.

Why you would attempt to take credit for actually witnessing this ear tag story is beyond me, but we BOTH know that you, in fact, did not see it.

As to your next post concerning deer/car collisions being down……I don`t doubt that one bit. There are significantly less deer in the PA deer herd today than there were 3 years ago.

Remember, auto insurance companies just don`t care about the deer/auto collisions, because by law, they merely raise their rates in areas where these collisions are more prevalent.


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Big Country I was thinking the same thing. Why in the world would somebody bring animals across state lines and leave tags in their ears so that they can be traced back? This is absolutely absurd and quite sad that people would believe this story. It is like leaving a business card intentionally at the scene of a crime so you can be identified. The insurance companies LOVE the car/deer incidents. As stated before they run up all the premiums in the area and use this as justification. I can assure you insurance companies don't lose money. Also if I was interested in reducing the deer population, I would certainly introduce a more avid predator than coyotes. Coyotes prey on many things and venison is not their major food source. I am really concerned that somebody believes a "Property of State Farm Insurance" and "Property of PAGC" were labeled inside each ear of a coyote. This is just sad and shows how naive some people are.


----------



## retro-grouch (Mar 19, 2005)

Foorhoyt..are you a USP member? You could be their poster child...lol


----------



## PA_ENGR (Aug 11, 2005)

*Coyotes galore*

I got a good one. My dad came home from the flea market the other day and this guy there told him that the PGC trapped out 70 turkeys & put in a trailer load of coyotes on the games lands here in Fayette Co.. He also said that the coyotes were bought by the insurance co. I love these coyote / insurance co stories. Total BS. As for the hunting in PA its absurb. You got people out there who shoot at anything (I know because I saw one guy actuall shoot at a running deer and hit another hunter with the stray bullet). I want to see licenses go up to $100 and have a 1 week shotgun (no rifle) season like ohio. Only a 100 miles or so into Ohio near the WV panhandle they kill more B&C bucks than anywhere in PA. Just look in their regulation book and they proudly display that.


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

That's one of the contributing factors to why I don't like the way the rules are set up, the slob hunters we have. For those of you fortunate enough to hunt areas not over run with other hunters you can't believe how bad it can get. As for the 1 week shotgun only season I would back that 100%. As for the coyote fairey tales, well, I was trapping and hunting coyotes back in the early 80's so forget the " import " fables. PA had and has one of the largest and most diverse group of hunters in the country. The way the PGC just made a rushed blanket policy for the entire state is what has me the most upset. The management units are a joke. I live in Lawrence county and every year the harvest reports would come out for deer, Lawrence county was always in the bottom 3 counties for total deer harvested. They put us in with Mercer and Butler counties for our management unit. Mercer county kills more bucks every year than Lawrence does total deer. Yet according to the PGC we were put there because of "similar habitat and population densities." Yeah, right!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 27, 2005)

*Coyotes*



Doc said:


> You honestly don't believe that the PA game commission introduced coyotes to PA do you? If you do, then you need to understand that coyotes are one of the most resilient species around. They can live on a variety of food sources and survive in socially or independently. The coyote is one of the few animals found virtually everywhere. I do not disagree with dahmer, but I don't credit the PA game commission to the existence of coyotes.


THEY INTRODUCED THE COYOTES TO MY STATE OF NJ AND THEY THINK I WILL BUY A PERMIT TO HUNT THEM .IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. GO OUT WEST AND SEE WHAT THEY DO DO THESE VARMITS. DOA.EVERY DAY. OR TRY MAINE HUNT ALL YEAR .KILL EM ALL, MAYBE THE WOLF WILL BE NEXT IN NJ.


----------



## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

dahmer said:


> Deer hunting in general is becoming about money and status and the people in charge wiil do what it takes to get their share of the pie. Maybe the best thing to do is get rid of record books.



AMEN my old man has been saying that for years and i never believed him up until the last 5 years or so when everything he used to say would happen started happening. i defidently think something has to be done in pa maybe all of us pa ATer's should meet up and go to the annual meeting in april and raise a little caine


----------



## buckshot164 (Apr 23, 2003)

*no deer*

Me and my freinds have been going spotting in Sproul state forest and we are lucky to see a doe. 5 years ago it you would have to be very weary of driving this road because of all the deer. I don`t think you will be seeing very many deer along rt.144 this year. It is the worst I have seen it. According to the infered servey we are the worst.


----------



## NJBowman (Oct 15, 2002)

First of all if the story is true about the tag. Who said it could be linked from the insurance company to the PGC. State Farm is one of the richest insurance companies out there. They could easily have done this on their own and the PGC would have no clue about it. I know this is a hard pill to swallow but hunters go by emotion and the PGC is going by data provicded by professionals. If a hunter does not see 20-30 deer in a sitting the herd has been destroyed. No it hasn't, the herd was way out of control when you see that many deer, now that it is being brought into the carrying capacity of the land you will see fewer deer. But the deer will be healthier with greater body weights. To me that is a great trade off, so you have to scout a little harder, isn't that what hunting should be? Not see 30 deer kill my spike and say I am a great hunter?
P&Y you do not need a permit to kill foxes or coyotes in NJ during the open deer season. You do need a $5 permit to hunt them 24 hrs in a day in Feb, I don't think the state is looking to break the bank on that one. I know several guys who took nice coyotes during bow season last year, in fact the cover of one of our magazines had a black yote one of our memebers killed.
Guys lawsuits are not the answer. As some stated the antis will use that to kill hunting all together. Work with groups like the UBP to work with the PGC to modify bad limits and seasons in areas that need it. Why not break the state into deer management zones like here in NJ to help target problem areas and leave other areas that are fine stay stable. THe UBNJ has done that here in NJ and I feel we make great strides every year and have a great relationship with our F&W council.


----------



## Team Hoyt PA (Oct 25, 2003)

Introduced Coyotes? If you think the GC Introduced Coyotes then you might want to look at the history of both yotes and pa game.
They've been here longer than whatever age you get too!!!!!


----------



## FOORHOYT (Mar 10, 2005)

*Say What You Want*

fine if you don't believe me thats fine but we will all have our own opinions when the 2005 deer season is all over and you didn't see any deer. believe what you want "its what pa needs" "its better for the herd" ya ya all the same thing. when you have a pa game commission deputy tell you that he helped release the coyotes, you look at him and tell him he is lying!! ya maybe the picture that i saw was doctored but when 5 years ago we had no coyotes and now they are all over the place you do the math. what changed, just take a second and think, for 50 years we did not have a problem in pa with coyotes and now in the last 5 years the population has exploded, just chance?? i don't think so! but you tell me that i'm just believing storys and i will show you coyotes instead of deer!
thanks
rj


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

5 years ago PA had no coyotes?

I trapped 7 of them in two weeks in 1994.

I can remember seeing them in the mid to late 1980`s.

What was the name of the game warden that told you he helped release these coyotes?

I will call him personally on monday morning....then come back with his reply.


----------



## FOORHOYT (Mar 10, 2005)

*maybe in new staton*

not it bedford county, we have never seen coyotes until 5 years ago and my family has been hunting our property for 60 years!! and the name of the game wardon was Yonner. give him a call and see what he says, we'll see if he is a lier. but reguardless something changed, the deer herd was at record numbers and now we see coyote tracks everywhere! state farm is a hugh insurance company but what would happen is someone release something like coyotes into a state wildlife area without permission, what would happen when the game commission found out and how would the public react? state farm would not be dumb enough to do it own there own.
thanks
rj


----------



## phatbowman1 (Apr 27, 2005)

*unreal*

i have had enough of the people who claim there are no deer in PA and dont say that i am just in a good part of PA because we have people here my friends too that sound just like you do forhoyt. no deer coyotes are eating them all, thats such bull get up and go HUNT!!! last year during archery season i hunted 28 days, sometiems just morning or evening but alot of times both i would say close to 50 hunts in all, i saw 28 bucks, only 4 of wich were not legal and countless numbers of does, i do not claim to be the worlds greatest hunter and am not saying that yiou are not a good hunter but the deer are there sit a little longer get off the dge of the fields get into the woods and hunt these antler restrictions are the only saving grace of PA whitetail management, i do not agree with everything there doing with our deer heard but it is better than what they were doin before this NOTHING! letting everyone think that they were something special to go out and bang the first half rack forkhorn they saw with there rifle, that was the people of pennsylvanias idea of deer management. i also find ammusement in the people who think that the game commission is making all this money off of hunting licence sales, the make about 5% of there money off of it the other 95% comes from trees, logging thats where they make the cash, the hunters that think that there gona pull one over on them by not buying a license are just hurting themselves the PGC could really care if you buy a license as long as you shoot the deer, so they dont damage the trees as much and they dont care how they get shot less people hunting they will just up the bag limits pretty simple, sorry if i offended any body but i had to vent


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

phatbowman1 said:


> i have had enough of the people who claim there are no deer in PA and dont say that i am just in a good part of PA because we have people here my friends too that sound just like you do forhoyt. no deer coyotes are eating them all, thats such bull get up and go HUNT!!! last year during archery season i hunted 28 days, sometiems just morning or evening but alot of times both i would say close to 50 hunts in all, i saw 28 bucks, only 4 of wich were not legal and countless numbers of does, i do not claim to be the worlds greatest hunter and am not saying that yiou are not a good hunter but the deer are there sit a little longer get off the dge of the fields get into the woods and hunt these antler restrictions are the only saving grace of PA whitetail management, i do not agree with everything there doing with our deer heard but it is better than what they were doin before this NOTHING! letting everyone think that they were something special to go out and bang the first half rack forkhorn they saw with there rifle, that was the people of pennsylvanias idea of deer management. i also find ammusement in the people who think that the game commission is making all this money off of hunting licence sales, the make about 5% of there money off of it the other 95% comes from trees, logging thats where they make the cash, the hunters that think that there gona pull one over on them by not buying a license are just hurting themselves the PGC could really care if you buy a license as long as you shoot the deer, so they dont damage the trees as much and they dont care how they get shot less people hunting they will just up the bag limits pretty simple, sorry if i offended any body but i had to vent


Well since you see so many deer, come down here where if you see 5 deer a week and tell me how great the hunting is. I've hunted probably more years than you have been alive and and I do put in my time hunting, I don't road hunt, and I have passed up small bucks. But when just the sighting of a deer anymore is something to talk about, well we have reverted back to the early 1900's. What I get tired of are the people that tell others to get out and hunt because there are all kinds of deer out there. Maybe you should try hunting in one of the areas that we are talking about. Try it for one season and tell me how great it is. I don't even want to hear about move, because my family would like it more if I provide a living than move just so I can find more deer. Just for the record, I started shooting a bow in 1963 and been hunting with one since 1968, believe me, I have put in my time. For all of you PGC cheerleaders, you can have my tags, I'm going to start hunting Ohio because this state stinks anymore.

By the way, of those 24 legal bucks you saw, did you shoot one? I also see that counting this coming archery season you have a maximum possiblity of 10 seasons of archery hunting, if you have bowhunted since you were 12.


----------



## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

I can remember in the late 70's and early 80's when we got excited to see deer track on my grandmothers farm. I never saw a buck there during hunting season while growing up. The past several years have been the best I can remember. Habitats change, and the deer move. Maybe your area has been overbrowsed and the deer have moved elsewhere? Here are some PA deer this year. Never saw these kind of deer around the area in the past.


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Kinda hard to overbrowse farm crops and pasture.


----------



## buckshot164 (Apr 23, 2003)

*Panthers*

I have seen panthers in the state gamelands with collars. When we aproached the game warden about this at the time he said there were no panthers in Pa. 
We said okay the next time we see it we will shoot it, and he said it was against the law. I do know that some of the old timers at our camp have said that they have seen coyotes in the 60s. I am troubled by what caused the coyote population to explode so fast. I could be wrong, but the big Ohio bucks that were killed were not to far from the Pa border. Things don`t look to much different than ln pa in those areas. I know someplaces have plenty of deer, but other places have been desimated.


----------



## NJBowman (Oct 15, 2002)

Guys you are giving coyotes too much credit. While they will take a fawn if given the chance a coyote would rather eat 15 filed mice than try to bring down an adult deer. Coyotes will destroy your wild turkey populations but do not have the impact on deer populations you are making it out to be. Now black bears will eat alot of fawns and are quick in catching them. I do not know much about the mountain lion population in Pa but they will kill some adult deer. 
Again work with your state hunting orgs and the PGC to reach a balance, don't just come on here and *****. If they replace the PGC you can bet it will be an open door for antis to get on and then you'll have no hunting.


----------



## SgtBoneCrusher (Jan 29, 2005)

there definately a healthy mountain lion population in N. Central Pa.....I have seen them......


----------



## phatbowman1 (Apr 27, 2005)

yes as a matter of fact i did kill one of them not the biggest one i saw but the oldest one, did i do this because i meant too? no i held out for a specific deer that i scouted all summer long but couldent get him into bow range so the last week of the season i shot a 110 inch 8 point with 11 inch G-2's and 6 inch Brow tines and it had twin crab claws nice last week buck there is a picture of it on here somewhere if i can find the link i will put it on, i also killed a 120 inch 8 point in west virginia last year, yes i have not hunted as many years as you and i do respect my elders in this sport but i am just as dedicated if not more than most 40 year olds that bowhunt so dont think that just because im only 22 years old that i dont kow how to hunt


----------

