# NFAA Agenda time



## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

Thanks for the reminder Bob !!


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Bob, just for the heck of it, have the council come up with a better way of shooting the car off. Nfaa makes big thing that if you shoot in the required tournaments you can shoot for a car or a cash value. It takes no great skill to get to the end except to participate , but it takes high skills to win it. Check the credentials of all of the winners. You will never see a trad. , or a cub win it. When the car was first brought up, it was hopeful that this was a way to get the shooters to attend all of the three shoots. I don't believe that is the reason why they come. they come because they want to be there. I'm sure there are some that are serious about shooting for the car ,because they know that they have a shot at it, like Jesse, Darrin, Hugo. If you designed a system that any one could win it by just a luck ,it would be better press . It would be great that some kid could win it. Remember when the extra car was won by Doug Williams just by drawing his name out of a hat? It would very simple to come up with a solution.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Mike, You are 100% correct and I will try and come up with some idea


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

Why not make it so it still requires skill, but Pro's and past winners are ineligible? How about this, take the prize money and split it in half. Make two prizes, one that is drawn for and one that is shot for. Maybe they could be Side By Side ATV's or a 4 wheeler... Just thinking of a way to keep skill in it and the shoot off while giving the average joe a shot as long as they attended all of the shoots.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Mestang99 said:


> Why not make it so it still requires skill, but Pro's and past winners are ineligible? How about this, take the prize money and split it in half. Make two prizes, one that is drawn for and one that is shot for. Maybe they could be Side By Side ATV's or a 4 wheeler... Just thinking of a way to keep skill in it and the shoot off while giving the average joe a shot as long as they attended all of the shoots.


Why ? 
there is absolutely no skill involved to be eligible for the shoot off. AT the bare minimum, you only have to register & go incomplete for all 3 shoots to be in the shoot off.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

archer_nm said:


> Mike, You are 100% correct and I will try and come up with some idea


Thanks Bob. That has always stuck in my craw since it started. I've always like the idea but not the way. It should be very simple to do. maybe a random small dot that can't be seen on the target. closest to the dot wins that round. It could be over in 2 rounds. Use 15 bales or how many you do need. After first round, only 15 or the total shooters of the number of bales , with any of those tied, go on to the next round. Put every one on the same bale & you will get a winner. That's one way of doing it. 
I'm sure there is enough smarts on the council to come up with something.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Can a freestyler switch to fat shafts for the closest to the invisible dot? :smile:

Like the idea, Mike.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

how bout they shoot the lawyers and get someone to re-write the rules in a non-vague, plain language manner?


shouldnt need a paralegal decoder ring for the rules when you read them.


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

archer_nm said:


> Mike, You are 100% correct and I will try and come up with some idea


Look in the Jan.-Feb. 2012 issue of the U.S. & International Archer magazine and you'll find some proposals I worked up for the car shoot-of and the reasons why I object to the current format. I put a lot of thought into various formats I'm suggesting and tried to offer some with strictly a luck format and some which had some skill involved but not until luck had eliminated most of the shooters. It was presented to the NFAA but Bruce insists on a skill format only.
Joe B.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Haha.. How about we have a car/cash shootoff for every class that the NFAA has, or any class that someone can add the day of the shoot off, so that everyone can win? ha comical. To me, this is the part of the problem, complaining that winning is only "skill" based. Yes it should take skill to win. If you want to win, practice. If you want to beat those that are good enough, then train until you are good enough. If you don't want to do that, or recognize that it will take that to win, then you don't deserve to win. Pretty comical to me though that those that have seemed to be around the longest are the ones pushing for things to not be based on skill, but based on luck.... which is generally those people complaining about younger generations not wanting to work for anything. Wonder where they learned that attitude from...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

gcab said:


> Haha.. How about we have a car/cash shootoff for every class that the NFAA has, or any class that someone can add the day of the shoot off, so that everyone can win? ha comical. To me, this is the part of the problem, complaining that winning is only "skill" based. Yes it should take skill to win. If you want to win, practice. If you want to beat those that are good enough, then train until you are good enough. If you don't want to do that, or recognize that it will take that to win, then you don't deserve to win. Pretty comical to me though that those that have seemed to be around the longest are the ones pushing for things to not be based on skill, but based on luck.... which is generally those people complaining about younger generations not wanting to work for anything. Wonder where they learned that attitude from...


Of course there's another way of looking at it. Everyone but freestylers boycott all three tournaments and see how long those tournaments and the car thing last. Gcab thinks it's "comical" that hundreds of people make all three tournaments knowing their style of shooting precludes them from having a chance of winning the car. I would like it to be skill based but with a little luck involved. How about starting the classes at different distances based upon their accuracy quotient. I.E, start trad at 5 yards, barebow and bowhunter at 10 yards, bhfsl and fsl at 20yards, bhfs at 30 yards and freestyle at 40 yard. Then, you can shoot whatever style you want and can't complain about not contending because the choice was yours.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Ben you have come up with a good idea, the only problem is that we use the Vegas styles for the classic but it would still work. I have a video conference In Oct I will try to bring it up.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Ben you have come up with a good idea, the only problem is that we use the Vegas styles for the classic but it would still work. I have a video conference In Oct I will try to bring it up.


Thanks Bob, I think it would be very equitable and I think it just might bring more people into the fold on attending all three shoots if they knew they had a chance of winning the car.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Of course there's another way of looking at it. Everyone but freestylers boycott all three tournaments and see how long those tournaments and the car thing last. Gcab thinks it's "comical" that hundreds of people make all three tournaments knowing their style of shooting precludes them from having a chance of winning the car. I would like it to be skill based but with a little luck involved. How about starting the classes at different distances based upon their accuracy quotient. I.E, start trad at 5 yards, barebow and bowhunter at 10 yards, bhfsl and fsl at 20yards, bhfs at 30 yards and freestyle at 40 yard. Then, you can shoot whatever style you want and can't complain about not contending because the choice was yours.


Ben,that's not a bad idea, however after each round you have to move back. eventually the trad, cubs , y, & BH will be out of it leaving it to the Jesse's & Bradens .
All the lesser shooters will be able to say to their classmates that they shot for the car. They won't tell them they had no shot at it. 
You could almost make book on it that the winner will always come from the top 20 names.
I congratulate all of the winners , but just thought it might be nice to maybe spread it around. 
For all those who want it to be skill, remember that the car shoot is not a tournament. It is a marketing ploy to induce participation at all 3 shoots. I think that it is a good thing. 
If you think skill should win it, then make it a tournament & charge registration. Remember that there are no requirements except participation to get into the car shoot.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

gcab said:


> Haha.. How about we have a car/cash shootoff for every class that the NFAA has, or any class that someone can add the day of the shoot off, so that everyone can win? ha comical. To me, this is the part of the problem, complaining that winning is only "skill" based. Yes it should take skill to win. If you want to win, practice. If you want to beat those that are good enough, then train until you are good enough. If you don't want to do that, or recognize that it will take that to win, then you don't deserve to win. Pretty comical to me though that those that have seemed to be around the longest are the ones pushing for things to not be based on skill, but based on luck.... which is generally those people complaining about younger generations not wanting to work for anything. Wonder where they learned that attitude from...


I have been around for a long time, & do firmly believe that skill should prevail in all tournaments, however the car is not a tournament. 
it's a marketing tool


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I have never been to all three shoots but you make it where I have a chance at the car I will be there


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> Ben,that's not a bad idea, however after each round you have to move back. eventually the trad, cubs , y, & BH will be out of it leaving it to the Jesse's & Bradens .
> All the lesser shooters will be able to say to their classmates that they shot for the car. They won't tell them they had no shot at it.
> You could almost make book on it that the winner will always come from the top 20 names.
> I congratulate all of the winners , but just thought it might be nice to maybe spread it around.
> ...


Mike, If my memory serves me correct, the car is usually decided by about 45-50 yards by the freestylers. I think you are slighting the other styles if you say they don't have a chance, if for example, trad, moved twice to 10 then 15 yards or barebow moved twice to 15 then 20 yards. I think the overwhelming majority of freestylers would be out after the first arrow at 40 yards.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Ben that's the way I am looking at it.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Mike, If my memory serves me correct, the car is usually decided by about 45-50 yards by the freestylers. I think you are slighting the other styles if you say they don't have a chance, if for example, trad, moved twice to 10 then 15 yards or barebow moved twice to 15 then 20 yards. I think the overwhelming majority of freestylers would be out after the first arrow at 40 yards.


Ben, my statement was not meant to slight any one. i was just stating from history.
I don't think your idea will work unless each group gets on the line by them selves for safety reasons. They will probably have the shoot off indoors. I think it is a bout 18 bales wide.
I hope if it gets changed, that it is kept simple


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> Ben, my statement was not meant to slight any one. i was just stating from history.
> I don't think your idea will work unless each group gets on the line by them selves for safety reasons. They will probably have the shoot off indoors. I think it is a bout 18 bales wide.
> I hope if it gets changed, that it is kept simple


Letting each group shoot their distance separately shouldn't be a problem, on the contrary, it would add to the suspense, especially if one or more of the other styles kept hitting the bull. I think new ideas are worth a try, Mike, don't be so fast to poo poo new, innovative thinking.:smile:


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

Just thought about this idea... How about cards face down on the bale? Put a bale down there with x number of cards and everyone shoots at the cards. You could do 70% blank cards and 30% with a car on them. Those that hit a card with an car on the other side are still in everyone else is out. Next bale same thing and repeat until one shooter is left... That would be exciting as hell and would take skill out of it. If nobody shoots a car card at the end you pull the shot cards and have them re-shoot until there is a winner.

I would be more likely to try this one as I know I have just as good of a chance as anyone else. Hell I could shoot a Genesis and have just as good of a chance as I would if I had a full FS rig...


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I was in Yankton when the car was won.
You should of heard the guy that won the car. He was adding it all up, travel expences, entry fees and what he was going to have to pay in taxes on the car.
He was really bummed to find out what it was going to cost him in the long run.
He was saying the state he lives in has a real high tax on stuff won, like cars.

He said he wished he could just have the cash value instead of the car cause he was going to have to sell it as soon as he could, he said he could not afford it keep it.
Don.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Some people will complain even if you hung them with a new rope.




zestycj7 said:


> I was in Yankton when the car was won.
> You should of heard the guy that won the car. He was adding it all up, travel expences, entry fees and what he was going to have to pay in taxes on the car.
> He was really bummed to find out what it was going to cost him in the long run.
> He was saying the state he lives in has a real high tax on stuff won, like cars.
> ...


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

zestycj7 said:


> I was in Yankton when the car was won.
> You should of heard the guy that won the car. He was adding it all up, travel expences, entry fees and what he was going to have to pay in taxes on the car.
> He was really bummed to find out what it was going to cost him in the long run.
> He was saying the state he lives in has a real high tax on stuff won, like cars.
> ...


I think it is either the car or 10k


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

So all the supposed issues that people come up with about why the NFAA is so terrible, or attendence is down or whatever.. and the agenda topic people want is to take a form of an event and make it based on luck? Hmm interesting.

Personally, agenda items I would like them to work on or consider would be having a set schedule for events for what times the lines shoot so people can prepare travel accordingly instead of waiting until 10pm or later to find out, having real criteria needing to be met to be a pro, less classes, and more proactive display of items being worked on or possible changes. Maybe that would help generate discussion more.


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