# Darn PALM Pilots and Clinometer's



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Ok field14.....

For the longest time I have been wondering WHY you complain about those darn gadgets. I understand the umbies and chairs....:wink:

But although I love field...and that is about all I really want to shoot...I had yet to have the pleasure of shooting with someone using one of those darn PALM Pilots and angle finding things....:embara:

Well yesterday I finally did

You see we shot yesterday at a local shoot...I had the pleasure of shooting with VaVince, Nino and Hinky and his darn gadgets....not only did he have the two mentioned....he also had a dag on range finder :doh:

Well let me tell you....if you are having problems with guys with toys on the range slowing things down and what not...I know EXACTLY how to take care of the problem

Tell the other goobers shooting with him to leave him and his toys alone so he can use them

You see the only time Hinky was slowed down and didn't finish shooting his 4 arrows before me...was when he was showing Nino and Vince how to use the stuff and what he uses it for....or when he had to go get something back from one of them so he could use it:doh: 

Now Hinky is no avg Joe of course and he shoots quicker then most...and better then most so I am pretty sure that he has the workings of his toys figured out.....

So it isn't the toys.....it's the boys that don't have the toys slowing every thing up:darkbeer:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

You are spot on Hornet... when I shot with him a few weeks ago, he started without marks, so he was using that Palm like it was a cell phone and he was text messaging OBT.. :lol: But.. I'll say this.. he never held us up, and by the half he was pretty close.. the second half he smoked.. and thru it all, we let him be.. :chortle: :wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

IGluIt4U said:


> You are spot on Hornet... when I shot with him a few weeks ago, he started without marks, so he was using that Palm like it was a cell phone and he was text messaging OBT.. :lol: But.. I'll say this.. he never held us up, and by the half he was pretty close.. the second half he smoked.. and thru it all, we let him be.. :chortle: :wink:


Well he had them yesterday and was moving master then anyone I have ever shot with:wink:

You missed a good time


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Still think every Field Archer needs their own Hooters Girl Caddy to work all the computers , umbies and cold drinks.......:darkbeer:

We talk about promoting the game let's get a promoting 


Did I ever mention the local annual Boomers golf invitational???

Let's Just Say Boomers is a strip joint :tongue:


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## Arrow (Aug 30, 2002)

BH,

It is not that we want to see how the toys work, we just like to play with any gaget that will not help our scores. 

You see, if we all had the same toys, then it would not be as much fun as trying to out guess and out think ourselves.

Arrow


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

When you shoot as badly as I do you need as many tools, gadgets, thing-a-ma-bobs, and do-dads as you can get your hands on. 

As for shooting fast...................................My dad was a PRO golfer and he taught me one very important "RULE" for golf and that is............................
















Miss 'em QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











So I just brought that over to archery as well. Nothing like standing over the ball for what seems like an eternity, taking countless practice swings then chunking it right into the DRINK!!!!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Pretty much like every other tool in the bag. You either know how to use it, or you sit there like a cone futzing around trying to do your learning on the range.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Hinkelmonster said:


> When you shoot as badly as I do you need as many tools, gadgets, thing-a-ma-bobs, and do-dads as you can get your hands on.
> 
> As for shooting fast...................................My dad was a PRO golfer and he taught me one very important "RULE" for golf and that is............................
> 
> ...



I have to agree Hinky you do suck!!!!!!!!!:zip::wink::tongue::tongue:

Man im feelin honary tonight!!!!!!:tongue::tongue:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Maybe one day you'll be out of my shadow!!!!

In the words of my censa:

Quit steppin' on Superman's cape!!!!


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Hinkelmonster said:


> Maybe one day you'll be out of my shadow!!!!
> 
> In the words of my censa:
> 
> Quit steppin' on Superman's cape!!!!


I cant wait for the day when I get to toe the line with a outdoor national champion....

In the words of my censa:

I have much to learn but drive and determination will carry you a long way!!!!

I can get out of your shadow only if I can beat you to those yummy ice cream sandwiches as LAS next year!!!!!:wink::tongue: Man they were good!!!


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## Arrow (Aug 30, 2002)

Hinky,

I wish I could shoot as bad as you. I would not know if I should let go of the riser or the string to end it all. I appreciate the miss fast comment. I try to do the same, but I miss.

Arrow


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Ok field14.....
> 
> For the longest time I have been wondering WHY you complain about those darn gadgets. I understand the umbies and chairs....:wink:
> 
> ...


I shot with Hinkey one time last year. He ain't slow by any means...regardless of what toys he has.  Oh, we had OBT in our group too. 

No, I hate to admit this but the slowest batch of shooters I've ever been behind were Bowhunter Freestylers!  I remember one State shoot years ago where it took us 6 hours to finish!!!!!!!!


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

No need to get too techy BH. All you need is a clinometer and a calculator. They don't take to much time to run.


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## Arrow (Aug 30, 2002)

Back when I could practice more, I learned how much to cut for up and down hills.

Now, I see how the toys could help a bit.

Arrow


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

swerve said:


> No need to get too techy BH. All you need is a clinometer and a calculator. They don't take to much time to run.


Don't underestimate the power and importance of a rangefinder!!!




Arrow said:


> Back when I could practice more, I learned how mch to cut for up and down hills.
> 
> Now, I see how the toys could help a bit.
> 
> Arrow


They eliminate the guesswork/uncertainty!!!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Hinkelmonster said:


> Don't underestimate the power and importance of a rangefinder!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which brings up the magical question. With a shooter of your calibre, do you use them to verify what you know or is it a replacement for learning the manual skills?

No sarcasm here, I just think we need to delineate between the types of users based upon skills aquired through archery practise and skills replaced by reliance on battery powered toys


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Hutnicks said:


> Which brings up the magical question. With a shooter of your calibre, do you use them to verify what you know or is it a replacement for learning the manual skills?
> 
> No sarcasm here, I just think we need to delineate between the types of users based upon skills aquired through archery practise and skills replaced by reliance on battery powered toys


I range (or at least try to range) every target I shoot. Where it's at my house, Darrington, The Hill Billy, or anywhere (practice or on the range).

If I am at a course on the practice range trying to get an 80 yard mark and that butt is miss marked/measured and is truely 79 yards...............who good will my tape be that that is based on this mark?

As for the clinometer....................I generally look at a target with an up/down and make a E.W.A.G. (educated wild ***** guess)....................I then pull out the Suunto and see where we're at. 

Now for the Palm...................I use it for my cuts vs. the cosin but I know a LOT of the top PRO/shooters period using the cosin.

The palm is priceless when you make a change while on the range and need new marks on the spot!!!!

Hope this helps!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Hinkelmonster said:


> I range (or at least try to range) every target I shoot. Where it's at my house, Darrington, The Hill Billy, or anywhere (practice or on the range).
> 
> If I am at a course on the practice range trying to get an 80 yard mark and that butt is miss marked/measured and is truely 79 yards...............who good will my tape be that that is based on this mark?
> 
> ...


Absolutely, and thanks for that post. We've all met (or been) that guy who is going to solve his lack of skill issues with technology. Not surprising as we are sold it day in and day out. But without the form and manual skills to back it up it can be more damaging than helpful.

Personally I like the devices (I own just about every PDA made right now) But as I work with the technology everybloodyday, binos and barebow are my relief right now:wink:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> I range (or at least try to range) every target I shoot. Where it's at my house, Darrington, The Hill Billy, or anywhere (practice or on the range).
> 
> If I am at a course on the practice range trying to get an 80 yard mark and that butt is miss marked/measured and is truely 79 yards...............who good will my tape be that that is based on this mark?
> 
> ...


All these gadgets are nice Hinkey...but you have removed a large portion of the challenge of Field archery.  Estimating cuts *WAS* a big part of the game.

Makes me even more impressed with those who shot in the 50's on tough courses like Darrington...before these 'toys' came along. :tongue:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

mdbowhunter said:


> All these gadgets are nice Hinkey...but you have removed a large portion of the challenge of Field archery.  Estimating cuts *WAS* a big part of the game.
> 
> Makes me even more impressed with those who shot in the 50's on tough courses like Darrington...before these 'toys' came along. :tongue:


And just think all of those guys had to walk to school in 2' of snow........... up hill.................BOTH ways......................every day!!!!


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Hinkelmonster said:


> Don't underestimate the power and importance of a rangefinder!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't. I carry one also. Leupold RXII. It is what I set my marks with at home with so I use it to verify ranges at shoots also. Also has an clinometer


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> And just think all of those guys had to walk to school in 2' of snow........... up hill.................BOTH ways......................every day!!!!


I should have stated it clearer...  Archers who shot in the 550's...not the 1950's! And Hinkey...that wasn't so long ago. 

I wanna know...how did all those Amateur and Pro Freestytlers shoot so well without the palm pilots...the inclom-blominators...rangefinders....etc?  Better yet, how can you guys (and gals) miss with all these aids which take away all the guess-work?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> I should have stated it clearer...  Archers who shot in the 550's...not the 1950's! And Hinkey...that wasn't so long ago.
> 
> I wanna know...how did all those Amateur and Pro Freestytlers shoot so well without the palm pilots...the inclom-blominators...rangefinders....etc?  Better yet, how can you guys (and gals) miss with all these aids which take away all the guess-work?


Well that explains something......

It explains WHY you haven't gone out and picked up any of the gadgets

No more excuses:doh:

I am going to be picking up a rangefinder myself shortly....one of those fancy ones like TCR1 has:wink:


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## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

*gizmos,gadgits,do-dads and thingamabobs*



Hinkelmonster said:


> Miss 'em QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So I just brought that over to archery as well. Nothing like standing over the ball for what seems like an eternity, taking countless practice swings then chunking it right into the DRINK!!!!



Been there and done that.:wink::wink: AC


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Ok....so you all got me thinking this old guy needs a new rangefinder with a clinometer to keep up with the younger crowd at Yankton this year....never having a Palm pilot how cheep can I get one on Ebay??? What model to run either AA or OT2??? and...does the RXII have an adjustable diopter for old eyes like mine or are you stuck with the focus it comes with???

Paul


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Paul Payne said:


> Ok....so you all got me thinking this old guy needs a new rangefinder with a clinometer to keep up with the younger crowd at Yankton this year....never having a Palm pilot how cheep can I get one on Ebay??? What model to run either AA or OT2??? and...does the RXII have an adjustable diopter for old eyes like mine or are you stuck with the focus it comes with???
> 
> Paul


Stuck with the diopter. they are not adjustable. My RXII run about 2 yards long versus the tape, but the angle is always on when compared against a clinometer.

I use OT2 on a laptop to print a sight card. Then use the card and calculator on the range. Never have used a Palm or AA so can't comment. Lot's of guys love them.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

swerve said:


> Stuck with the diopter. they are not adjustable. My RXII run about 2 yards long versus the tape, but the angle is always on when compared against a clinometer.
> 
> I use OT2 on a laptop to print a sight card. Then use the card and calculator on the range. Never have used a Palm or AA so can't comment. Lot's of guys love them.


My RXII has an adjustable diopter and a fold down eyecup. :wink:

I dont' think OT2 makes a palm version.. but I could be wrong. :noidea:


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

Ok...so I gotta check and make sure that the RXII has and adjustable diopter...and download AA...I've already downloaded the trial ver of ot2 and find it very confusing...hows the learning curve on AA??....anyone know what model palms AA runs on or does it run on all palms as long as they have enough memory and disk space for the program??


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Paul Payne said:


> Ok...so I gotta check and make sure that the RXII has and adjustable diopter...and download AA...I've already downloaded the trial ver of ot2 and find it very confusing...hows the learning curve on AA??....anyone know what model palms AA runs on or does it run on all palms as long as they have enough memory and disk space for the program??


How does AA compare difficulty wise to OT2......

Like comparing a paint by #s book to an OBT thread:wink:

OT2 really isn't that hard to figure out once you learn the basic stuff....it is pretty much like using the other programs only with a bunch more extra stuff. I have had all 3 programs and prefer OT2


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Well that explains something......
> 
> It explains WHY you haven't gone out and picked up any of the gadgets
> 
> ...


I'm truly disappointed...I thought you would refrain from using all the 'toys'!  I guess your path to the 'dark side' is complete.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> I'm truly disappointed...I thought you would refrain from using all the 'toys'!  I guess your path to the 'dark side' is complete.


Toys...I have always wanted range finder.....just haven't bought one....I have been on some ranges that had window lickers marking the yardage:zip:

and by the way....I used one on the Hill last year:wink:


But I don't need gadgets to woop up on you....I haven't bought it yet anyway....looking for new binos first:wink:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

IGluIt4U said:


> My RXII has an adjustable diopter and a fold down eyecup. :wink:
> 
> I dont' think OT2 makes a palm version.. but I could be wrong. :noidea:


Checked my RXII.:doh: Never used it, but the diopter is there.:sorry:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Toys...I have always wanted range finder.....just haven't bought one....I have been on some ranges that had window lickers marking the yardage:zip:
> 
> and by the way....I used one on the Hill last year:wink:
> 
> ...


Vortex my man Vortex, the only bino where you get more than you pay for.:thumb:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

swerve said:


> Checked my RXII.:doh: Never used it, but the diopter is there.:sorry:


Darn.. thought mine was special.. :lol: :wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Brown Hornet said:


> Toys...I have always wanted range finder.....just haven't bought one....I have been on some ranges that had window lickers marking the yardage:zip:
> 
> and by the way....I used one on the Hill last year:wink:
> 
> ...


Yes and thats the number one reason for a rangefinder. I bought the first Bushnell ever put out to A) Verify yardages at golf courses and driving ranges for the management. and B) To verify and pick out sighting targets for archery and airgun. Beats hell out of the old tape measures funnily enough, it was just too inconvenient to lug around either hunting or on a field course.

I want the smallest stuff I can get to lug around whether it be binos RF's or quivers.

Good luck bino shopping, there is so much out there for great optics it really is hard to differentiate between a lot of em. But it's fun to shop:wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Yes and thats the number one reason for a rangefinder. I bought the first Bushnell ever put out to A) Verify yardages at golf courses and driving ranges for the management. and B) To verify and pick out sighting targets for archery and airgun. Beats hell out of the old tape measures funnily enough, it was just too inconvenient to lug around either hunting or on a field course.
> 
> I want the smallest stuff I can get to lug around whether it be binos RF's or quivers.
> 
> Good luck bino shopping, there is so much out there for great optics it really is hard to differentiate between a lot of em. But it's fun to shop:wink:



That and the accuracy and consistency of a laser rangefinder DEGRADES in foul weather, and over time when the BATTERIES start to get weak.

READ THE RATNG on the rangefinder....plus or minus 1 yard (for the cheapos) and plus or minus 1/2 yard for the good ones///BIG DEAL! Also, MOST PEOPLE...take ONE ranging and call it good...not smart....WHEN I use one for practicing 'guessing" for 3-D, I always take THREE readings...and if there is a ringer...it gets tossed.

So...hope you carry an extra set of batteries too, for everything, including your palm pilot, clinometer, and rangefinder.

BECAUSE WHY? Because if any of those fail...they are NOT counted as an "equipment failure" so you don't get no time to go back and get this or that and pick up practice arrows when you return....So if you have your settings stored on the palm-pilot and NOT on your site bar and the palm pilot goes on the blink...tough luck.:wink::tongue:

Don't DEPEND UPON THE TECHNO-TOYS to give you all the "right answers"...cuz they Will NOT.

field14


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

swerve said:


> Vortex my man Vortex, the only bino where you get more than you pay for.:thumb:


I have a set in route :wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> That and the accuracy and consistency of a laser rangefinder DEGRADES in foul weather, and over time when the BATTERIES start to get weak.
> 
> READ THE RATNG on the rangefinder....plus or minus 1 yard (for the cheapos) and plus or minus 1/2 yard for the good ones///BIG DEAL! Also, MOST PEOPLE...take ONE ranging and call it good...not smart....WHEN I use one for practicing 'guessing" for 3-D, I always take THREE readings...and if there is a ringer...it gets tossed.
> 
> ...


 Wondering when you were going to pop by Field your dead on with the RF and its accuracy, it still needs to be verified and weather and light conditions can play havoc with them. Knowing the equipment limitations is essential. Battery life with the palms and everything else except the Ipaq phones is miserable and varies too much with usage type for my liking. And it's not like the good ol days:wink: when you could pop another pair of AAA's in the pilot and move on, it goes down you need the cradle or its lights out for good.

All in all more grief than I care to worry about (FITA shooters adherence to simplicity) afield.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Wondering when you were going to pop by Field your dead on with the RF and its accuracy, it still needs to be verified and weather and light conditions can play havoc with them. Knowing the equipment limitations is essential. Battery life with the palms and everything else except the Ipaq phones is miserable and varies too much with usage type for my liking. And it's not like the good ol days:wink: when you could pop another pair of AAA's in the pilot and move on, it goes down you need the cradle or its lights out for good.
> 
> All in all more grief than I care to worry about (FITA shooters adherence to simplicity) afield.


Just don't forget...there are those out there that think they MUST HAVE THEM if they are to ever have hopes of shooting halfway decent! Afterall, the believe that the ONLY REASON that some of the better pros do so well...is just because of the techno-toys and not much else...

Then there are those that think the 'techno-toys' give them an added edge of "catching up" on experience to the more field shooting literate top guns...cuz afterall, those "toys" make it SO MUCH EASIER...

Only problem is, they don't know the limitations of the equipment, and they also do NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR LIMITATIONS either....to the point that they almost totally depend upon the toys for the answers.

Cutting 1/2 yard...when your rangefinder is "off" 1/2 yard, and of course you don't KNOW which way it is off...hot or cold?? Are your batteries weak or going sour? Or did you check the calibration before you left AND put in fresh batteries? 
What GAIN is there in that...then you don't know if it was "the cut chart", your site settings, the rangefinder, or YOU that just shot that "4"...so now where do ya go from there?

Then, the target ALSO shoots a bit left or right...cuz of anamolies, your bad stance (and lack of proactive practice), or unknown wind currents....sure would like to see the range finger and clinometer correct for that FOR YOU...?? hahahaha

The big guns don't TELL YOU about the other parts of that fine art of field shooting...that ONLY comes from experience.

field14


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Palms*

Are cool. You can go to the range, key your data in, shoot a few marks in and have a setting for every target in a few minutes. You can fine tune your marks on the range as you go and update the marks. The one really nasty draw back to every palm pilot I have seen is that if you let the battery run completely down you are not only out of business in the right now, but you lose all your data and have to reinstall the software. What a bummer.
Jbird


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Jbird said:


> Are cool. You can go to the range, key your data in, shoot a few marks in and have a setting for every target in a few minutes. You can fine tune your marks on the range as you go and update the marks. The one really nasty draw back to every palm pilot I have seen is that if you let the battery run completely down you are not only out of business in the right now, but you lose all your data and have to reinstall the software. What a bummer.
> Jbird


Thats what I meant by "head for the cradle" There are hacks to carry battery (AA and 9volt adapters to charge on the fly, but you had better be backing up everything to the SD card after every change, unless you don't mind using it.

And all LCD screens suck in bright light- thought I'd throw that in too, cause they really suck!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Just don't forget...there are those out there that think they MUST HAVE THEM if they are to ever have hopes of shooting halfway decent! Afterall, the believe that the ONLY REASON that some of the better pros do so well...is just because of the techno-toys and not much else...
> 
> Then there are those that think the 'techno-toys' give them an added edge of "catching up" on experience to the more field shooting literate top guns...cuz afterall, those "toys" make it SO MUCH EASIER...
> 
> ...


 Why Field, don't you know that this is all just clever marketing for the software and gimmick folks. "Now that we have you captive and dependant, you have wind issues well now for a mere 149.99 you can get the anemometer attachment and corresponding software module, and if you travel to many shoots you'll want to have the barometer module as well, don' let atmospheric pressure cheat you out of that well deserved X"

I knew we were in trouble when Annapolis stopped teaching celestial navigation


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

jbird is right give one a try i will take your archery to the next level 
i like aa palm


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

All of the gadgets being carried to help score on hilly ranges, yet I have never seen anyone else carry the most important piece of equipment for a hilly range.

A tapered block of wood.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

FS560 said:


> All of the gadgets being carried to help score on hilly ranges, yet I have never seen anyone else carry the most important piece of equipment for a hilly range.
> 
> A tapered block of wood.


Rare thing to see nowadays...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FS560 said:


> All of the gadgets being carried to help score on hilly ranges, yet I have never seen anyone else carry the most important piece of equipment for a hilly range.
> 
> A tapered block of wood.


Yep,
Might cost all of about $0.50...total...and help them gain a TON of points in score....but nope...more is better....so "they" will spend upwards of yet another $700 or so in "techno-toys", then turn around and buy a camp stool, fill it with goodies, strap on some golf tubes, add an umbie, and then lug that frickin' thing, along with the techno-toys around the range all day...and wonder why they are so tired at the conclusion of the round...only to get beat by someone who just SHOOTS THEIR SHOTS and uses observation of what is going on around them to "analyze" the range, etc....

Absolutely hilarious that people seem to think you can just plop the money down and BUY a higher score without doing anything else....and PRACTICE?? my heavens...don't have time for that...."We should be able to catch up easier than going out and working for it." Work for it? You gotta be kidding me...it MUST BE EASIER than having to do that...I know "so-and-so" and HE/SHE never practices...."

As I said earlier, the rangefinder is good to plus or minus 1/2 yard...on FRESH BATTERIES, and a good reflective surface...MOST people don't know WHICH DIRECTION their range finder is off...hot or cold? So....the clinometer says it is 15 degrees for the "cut" the cut chart says to cut a yard and a half (for example)...but...your rangefinder has old batteries, and is also reading a half-yard (but which direction) off...so...do you follow the cut chart?

Then add to this that you cannot HOLD SOLIDLY on the spot in the first place, and your "site tape" (computer generated thru your palm pilot) is also off a tad cuz you don't have a good setting going in...and then the standing position (cuz you can't get your feet flat and have never practiced out of kilter like this)is off level, and you can't see that there is a "wind tunnel" that is causing the arrow to go to the left and DOWN (cuz you don't "read" the target first)...so NOW....whaddaya do? You PUNT, basically...cuz you have more garbage flying around you...and are dependent upon the techno-toys!!!:wink::tongue:

Reading the target, then having that "block of wood" (or, better yet proactively practicing so you KNOW how you handle toes up or down shooting stances) would probably give you a better result than a bad rangefinder with poor batteries, a bad setting in the first place, not knowhing which way the rangefinder is off...and not knowing if the cut is really right or not...etc...would ever give you.

You are NOT "given" anything in this game...you gotta EARN IT. The $$$ would be much better spent on a good coach and some more proactive practice sessions instead of techno-toys, IMHO.

But...like I said earlier...there are those out there that are absolutely convinced that the "top guns" score so well ONLY because of the use of the techno-toys...and for no other reason. But then, do they also realize that probably, those same top guns are "sponsored" by the manuf. of the techno-toys...so have to PROmote their use in the first place?

The only MORE in this game that is better, IMHO...is MORE QUALITY PRACTICE...not BUYING MORE 'techno-frills", hahaha
field14


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Yep,
> Might cost all of about $0.50...total...and help them gain a TON of points in score....but nope...more is better....so "they" will spend upwards of yet another $700 or so in "techno-toys", then turn around and buy a camp stool, fill it with goodies, strap on some golf tubes, add an umbie, and then lug that frickin' thing, along with the techno-toys around the range all day...and wonder why they are so tired at the conclusion of the round...only to get beat by someone who just SHOOTS THEIR SHOTS and uses observation of what is going on around them to "analyze" the range, etc....
> 
> Absolutely hilarious that people seem to think you can just plop the money down and BUY a higher score without doing anything else....and PRACTICE?? my heavens...don't have time for that...."We should be able to catch up easier than going out and working for it." Work for it? You gotta be kidding me...it MUST BE EASIER than having to do that...I know "so-and-so" and HE/SHE never practices...."
> ...


Interesting points as always Field. I wonder how many pros (or gifted amateurs) actually lug a rangfinder around a practice course and how frequently. I'd like to see how the practice schedules fit that in


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Interesting points as always Field. I wonder how many pros (or gifted amateurs) actually lug a rangfinder around a practice course and how frequently. I'd like to see how the practice schedules fit that in



Several pros and gifted amateurs do lug the clinometers and rangefinders and palm pilots along with them...however....MANY of those I've spoken directly to.....use them ONLY when they have some doubt as to their "read" of the target...and then, they use the "toys" just to verify their "gut feelings."

One of the BEST field shooters in the country told me at Vegas...that he was asked to contribute to the "cut chart" for the targets at Darrington that he could remember...he did so...and he told me that ALL of what he remembered and contributed agreed EXACTLY with the "clinometer and rangefinder" results in the book! Of course, this person, in his prime was nearly unbeatable on a field course...WITHOUT the use of computer generated tapes, clinometers, cut charts, rangefinders, and palm pilots...just like so many others that have shot 555 or better consistently WITHOUT all that extra stuff.

field14


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I shot ahead of Cousins and Hinky at Redding. There were some other big guns in that group. Palms, clinometers, and BigGP's chairs were all present in that group. You can make fun of them all you want Field, but they are here to stay. I couldn't believe how much better my back felt and how much easier it was to carry a chair than wear a quiver. I don't shoot without my clinometer and cut chart on hilly courses like Darrington or Redding...but I have no use for a Palm in BHFS.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

AKDoug said:


> I shot ahead of Cousins and Hinky at Redding. There were some other big guns in that group. Palms, clinometers, and BigGP's chairs were all present in that group. You can make fun of them all you want Field, but they are here to stay. I couldn't believe how much better my back felt and how much easier it was to carry a chair than wear a quiver. I don't shoot without my clinometer and cut chart on hilly courses like Darrington or Redding...but I have no use for a Palm in BHFS.


Carrying all that extra garbage around is probably why people seem to THINK they must also carry a chair as well...since there isn't ROOM in a quiver for all the paraphenalia:tongue:...
Perhaps people should also just get an electric golf cart or maybe one of those new camping coolers on wheels??...or maybe pay a caddy, hahaha. 

Of course, I know that they are here to stay...but myself, I'll continue to just enjoy doing it the "proper" way. I know so many others, as well as myself, that have done it the "proper" way and continue to do so, national titles or not...Cousin Dave and Hinky could still win those "titles" WITHOUT all the extra stuff anyways. Those high level scores were shot for years before the advent of the toys...and will continue to be shot without the added burden or expense. And we wonder why a LOT of people won't bother with field archery and call it "elitist" and "too complicated"??? The "toys" are just several more contributing factors...if people feel they "NEED" those toys PLUS all the other crap in order to compete....they'll stay home...or spend the money elswhere.

Advertising hype and staff shooter promotion...useful or not......they'll tell you that ya just hasta have one...and SOME will bite hook, line, and sinker.

Old-fashioned or not...this party will NOT stoop down into carrying a chair on a field course, nor will I spend the extra bucks for the "big 3 techno-toys" that for me, only amount to extra baggage. Techno-toys be what they may...won't GIVE you anything that you don't earn for yourself anyways. There is a limit to things, and sometimes a person just makes their own "limits" and draw the line themselves. The extra $700 wasted on techno-toys is better spent in gas to get out and PRACTICE, IMHO...or kept in my pocket for something useful...like paying for my next bow or something.:wink::tongue:

Just like use of umbies for blocking the wind...you'll NEVER get this old duff to EVER convert and use the "big 3 techno-toys" and lug them around. Next thing you know, someone will be shooting an indoor event under "electronic control" with a mini-cam mounted in their site, an electronically controlled release aid, and someone in a motel room will be pressing the "enter" key to activate the release for the "shooter" on the line...I suppose you all would be just fine with that too???? and HAVE TO HAVE ONE?

field14:wink::tongue:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

field14 said:


> Carrying all that extra garbage around is probably why people seem to THINK they must also carry a chair as well...since there isn't ROOM in a quiver for all the paraphenalia:tongue:...
> Perhaps people should also just get an electric golf cart or maybe one of those new camping coolers on wheels??...or maybe pay a caddy, hahaha.
> 
> Of course, I know that they are here to stay...but myself, I'll continue to just enjoy doing it the "proper" way. I know so many others, as well as myself, that have done it the "proper" way and continue to do so, national titles or not...Cousin Dave and Hinky could still win those "titles" WITHOUT all the extra stuff anyways. Those high level scores were shot for years before the advent of the toys...and will continue to be shot without the added burden or expense. And we wonder why a LOT of people won't bother with field archery and call it "elitist" and "too complicated"??? The "toys" are just several more contributing factors...if people feel they "NEED" those toys PLUS all the other crap in order to compete....they'll stay home...or spend the money elswhere.
> ...


Are you having fun yet field?:wink:

Oh if you want a camera, I found one that is a stabilizer the other day. You could make yourself ill watching the shake

I need my chair waiting for you older duffs to catch your air and get 4 shots off.
Besides makes a good spotting stool when I am calling for my buddies:wink:

Don't go getting all elitist on us now. Somebody will be blaming you for the end of field archery.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

swerve said:


> Are you having fun yet field?:wink:
> 
> Oh if you want a camera, I found one that is a stabilizer the other day. You could make yourself ill watching the shake
> 
> ...



I'll guarantee you that THIS "older duff" will NOT be huffing and puffing when it comes to hills...ain't gonna happen...First off, I'm PROACTIVE concerning my aerobic conditioning and always have been...it has saved my life once already. Secondly, I don't carry all that "SNOT" around the ranges with me, so I don't have to worry about that added weight either, hahahaha.

Camera for the shake....nope.....My shake throws off the other guys more than it does me....my SITE isn't moving all that much....so....c'mon WATCH ME SHAKE....go ahead....that just gets ME into YOUR head, hahahaha.

So, don't include the fieldman in the "old duffs" catching their wind and getting 4 shots off. I've won many tournaments over the years....NOT because I was the more talented shooter...but mostly because I was the MOST FIT and PREPARED shooter...let 'em lug all that stuff and their heavy carcasses up the hills....let 'em practice perfect at 14 targets at a time in the calm. I'll proactively practice for the WHEN THE CRAP HITS THE FAN, and I KNOW what to do...while they are fiddling with the little "toys" that don't tell 'em what to do WHEN things are NOT peachy keen, NOT perfectly calm, and standing positions are NOT dead nuts level, etc. I'll be getting warmed up after preparing myself to shoot 56 targets a day...while they've only practiced under ideal conditions in the AFTERNOONS for 14 targets...and wonder why they tire after the 16 target or so....

Gotta just luv it when they tire, or can't figure out HOW TO REACT to that unlevel standing position cuz they've never PRACTICED IT, or adjust for the "anamoly" that a good target "read" will give them...and the computer doesn't....

Nope, this "old duff" isn't elitist...the elitist ones are those that DEPEND UPON the techno-toys and go telling everyone that they NEED to spend another $700 on equipment that is truly NOT necessary to enjoy decent field scores....but today's "quickie elitists" go around trying to convince people that 550+ field scores just aren't possible without the "techno-toys"...when in REALITY...those 550+ field scores are POSITIVELY achieveable WITHOUT all the gadgetry and have been done WITHOUT the gadgetry for YEARS...just takes some PRACTICE and TRUST in your FORM...and paying attention to YOUR game...and not mimicing someone else....and "keeping up with the Joneses" with "UNNEEDED gadgetry".

Oh, yes, I'm having fun...because the bait has probably been swallowed by the 'techno-toy lovers'...you know those that truley believe you MUST have the gadgetry...just cuz so and so has it....so MORE is better...those "elitists" don't realize that people aren't going to spend another $700 for the big 3 toys just to play this little game of field archery...and if they "HAVE TO" have it...then forget it.

field14:tongue::wink:


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

And we don't know why Field archery droped down to the bottom level of where it is today, but yet we have archers using all of these junk toys for a higher score. Personal I just don't think these toys should be legal for field archery or any other type of archery. This is one of the reasons that has caused field archery to die like it has. It is no wonder these young archers are shooting these high scores that you seee today, Just goes to prove what we already knew is the shooters of the 1977 to 1992 group are a way ahead of the archers of today. They got their points the old fasion way, they earn them.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

distributor said:


> And we don't know why Field archery droped down to the bottom level of where it is today, but yet we have archers using all of these junk toys for a higher score. Personal I just don't think these toys should be legal for field archery or any other type of archery. This is one of the reasons that has caused field archery to die like it has. It is no wonder these young archers are shooting these high scores that you seee today, Just goes to prove what we already knew is the shooters of the 1977 to 1992 group are a way ahead of the archers of today. They got their points the old fasion way, they earn them.


But....the NEWBIES of today...NEED to "catch up" without having to take years to do it...so, "they" MUST HAVE technology in the form of computers, clinometers, rangefinders, chairs, stools, construction equipment, extra water bottles, computer site tapes...etc...but the problem is...they MANY of them simply don't realize that there is no replacement for common sense experience and awareness of what is going on around you.

The newbies THINK that the top guns only use the "toys" because it is their ONLY means of shooting those higher scores...when in reality....those higher scores are THERE ANYWAYS...WITHOUT the use of the junk toys.

We bring up FITA field....and in that field game...techno-toys are NOT allowed....and there is an unmarked distance part of that to boot...NO ELECTRONICS out on the range, period.

It is amazing at the number of shooters that would prefer a 14-target round PER DAY rather than 28, cuz 28 is "too long" and too many arrows to shoot!!! Talk about the big "L" word coming to pass.

Of course, indoors, MANY want to take 15 minute breaks at the 1/2 way point too...cuz 60 arrows indoors is too much without a break half-way thru too...

You can forget about the "techno-toys" becoming "illegal"...the "association" wouldn't DARE try that one out...afterall....they have been "on the market" for a while now, they are available to everyone, and many of the big name shooters are endorsing them and on shooting staffs of the manuf....there isn't a snowball's chance of getting the big 3 "techno-toys" outlawed now.

One could try to submit an agenda item...but you'd be the laughing stock of the entire meeting and it would get tossed before the third word was read...just the title alone would arouse a huge round of laughter!:wink::tongue:

Should have been stopped at the beginning...just like they stopped the "tripods and spotting scopes" out on the field courses MANY YEARS AGO, and went with allowing the use of binoculars, but NO SPOTTING SCOPES AND TRIPODS are allowed on the field ranges.

What really is funny...is to see people carrying stools and chairs on field courses that....are 5-star rated, or 4-star rated...and already HAVE BENCHES at all or most all targets already in place! THAT is FUNNY as heck to watch!

I think I'll go investigate mini-cams, and computer control of release aids and see what can be done to get this technology into INDOOR archery....they can kill big game that is on a ranch in Texas from a couch in South Africa via computer....what can be so tough about computer controlled bows and release aids in a major INDOOR archery competition at a stationary target at a mere 20 yards? NOBODY would ever know....and it is NOT in the rules as ILLEGAL....so....I guess it is LEGAL then, isn't it?
Not beyond the realhm of possibility, now is it?

Maybe a "hooter shooter" division too...that way poor widdle newbies would only have to tune the bow/arrow to the hootershooter and NOT even have to expend effort to shoot the bow with HUMAN muscle power....there is the "L" word to the MAX!

field14:wink::tongue:


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

When was the last Outdoor Nationals you have attended Field14 or Distributor? If you aren't part of solution you are part of the problem.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

AKDoug said:


> When was the last Outdoor Nationals you have attended Field14 or Distributor? If you aren't part of solution you are part of the problem.


The solution is NOT the use of MORE technology and equipment supposedly NEEDED to be purchased in order to be "more competitive"...You cannot EVER convince me that those "techno-toys" are NEEDED to shoot decent scores.


NOT...when I, personally before my medical problems was shooting into the 550's routinely WITHOUT even the added "plus" of computer generated site tapes, carbon arrows...etc.

YOU are never going to get more people to come play the field game if you promote the necessity of MUST HAVE...clinometer ($75-$200), Palm Pilot ($150 on up), laser rangefinder ($250 on up), AND decent binoculars ($200 an upwards) PLUS the "necessity" to carry a chair, stool, etc ($35 on up)...C'mon, get REAL..

ALL that is needed to shoot decently on field courses is some PRACTICE. The site settings can be 'shot in', MAYBE binoculars are necessary...but the big-3 techno-toys are NOT an ESSENTIAL part of the matrix...just HYPE to try to sell more product and to make field archery ever more complicated than it already is.

You mention that extra stuff to a newbie and they'll pretty much tell you to go fly a kite...they already balk at the rules and how complicated they are. They already balk at 112 shots...and NOW...YOU turn around and tell them they just gotta have MORE than the high cost of arrows, bow, site, and binoculars....who are we trying to get into this sport...ELITISTS, is the answer...and THAT, is going the WRONG WAY, IMHO.

I still feel that the big-3 techno-toys should have been stopped for use on field courses the first time they showed up in the hands of newbies and wannabees...MOST don't know how to use them properly anyways.

BUT...it is too late now....and again, it cheers me up to see people that are NOT using them to shoot well....VERY FEW can beat Dave Cousins on a field course...and Dave Cousins....I don't think...shot is first registered 560 in National competition by using a palm-pilot, clinometer, or laser rangefinder.

I know for a FACT that Terry Ragsdale didn't. I know for a FACT that Dean Pridgen, with the exception of his last National Outdoor didn't have USE for one. Mike Leiter...can "Cut" with the best of 'em without the use of the toys.

I couldn't care less how many Nationals I've shot of late...it is immaterial...what IS material is the way the sheer costs of the UNNECESSARY "extra toys" is driving people away from competing in field archery. It is ridiculous, IMHO, and IMHO...the INTEGRITY of the field archery game is also vanishing quickly as more and more "technology" is coming into it...and LESS and LESS THINKING and DOING FOR ONESELF is being done.

Will you join the Hooter-Shooter Division???:wink::tongue:

field14


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

FS560 said:


> All of the gadgets being carried to help score on hilly ranges, yet I have never seen anyone else carry the most important piece of equipment for a hilly range.
> 
> A tapered block of wood.


Come on, that's what tree branches/rocks/and BOOTs are for!!!!!

As for all of this extra mumbojumbo about what's is and isn't needed.....................................it's all personna; preference. If you don't like them don't use them, they are here to stay and other will continue to use them. If you do like them use them all you want, if you don't feel the need for extra RF battery or to double check everything before you leave home well then, after that 1st time................you'll learn, untill then enjoy.

I've come to learn not to trust anyone but myself. 

I do not look at hole sin targets as I have seen with my own eye people turning the target faces. 

I use the rangefinder just as peice of mind. It also helps me to be sure I'm at the correct yardage. 

The clinometer is not electronic and is allowed in FITA. It does not run out of batteries so that's not an issue, it will not wear out without physical damage. Is it needed NOPE. Are they nice to have? YUP!!!!

The palm, is one of the greatest tools I've purchased for archery. It has saved me time and time again. I'm now on my second one. If you let the batteries die well then shame on you, that's like letting your string fray until it breaks mid-round!!! It's another peice of equipment that needs the proper attenion. I'm able to charge mine in my car.

The STOOL..........................do I own ONE? No but I currently have ONE's!!! 

I carried it for Friday and Saturday in Redding but not Sunday (when I really needed it). I also wore my hip quiver and the stool only carried food and water and ICE. For Redding and Outdoor Nationals, a stool is a great tool and well worth the hassle. I think AKDOUG's question to you field and FS560 is a valid one for a different reason. When you were shooting how long did it take and how many targets did you sit for 20-30 minutes before shooting???

Seems like things have slown down alot out there and my big fat hiney needs a place to sit that's comfy.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> Come on, that's what tree branches/rocks/and BOOTs are for!!!!!
> 
> As for all of this extra mumbojumbo about what's is and isn't needed.....................................it's all personna; preference. If you don't like them don't use them, they are here to stay and other will continue to use them. If you do like them use them all you want, if you don't feel the need for extra RF battery or to double check everything before you leave home well then, after that 1st time................you'll learn, untill then enjoy.
> 
> ...


That is a good question, and I can and WILL answer it totally HONESTLY!

The last Nationals I attended and the 3 before that...ALL....had an announcement at the beginning of the morning meeting, and again at the conclusion....YOUR TIME LIMIT from the time you hear the HORN...is...5 hours and that means to have your SCORECARDS TURNED IN. They advised us that the time limit WILL be enforced....so we complied.

My last Nationals was on Sugar Hill...and I was clean to heck and gone out on the farthest course out away from the "hill" on Thursday...the 5-hour TIME LIMIT was ENFORCED...and we did indeed have those scorecards turned in within that 5-hour limit. 
Did we stand around 20 or 30 minutes between targets? NOT HARDLY...We attended to business instead of shooting the baloney...we shot the BULL...S_EYE that is! hahaha. This was on a very hilly course over varying terrain replete with tough standing positions, and slow and fast groups...and we ALL made it in UNDER the 5-hour limit! 

I might also add that NUMEROUS scores into the middle and high 550's both in the PROS and in the Open ranks were recorded that WEEK....WITHOUT any of the computer garbage and laser rangefinders! I think that Ragsdale had a 559 and a 557 that week...and several "open" shooters carded in some 550+ scores as well. SHOT IN SITE MARKS, no less.

But then again, we didn't sight the target with a clinometer, sight the target with a rangefinder, then sit down and "calculate" the setting with a palm-pilot either...and you try to tell me that doing the Big 3 Techno-toy trick does NOT take extra time? I wasn't born yesterday! In fact, if you ogled the target too long with your binoculars after the shot...or even before the shot...you got told about it! Politely, but you got told.

Simple solution....put on a TIME LIMIT and ENFORCE IT...and people won't be dilly-dallying. Keep it wide-open like it is now...and people WILL abuse it for the sake of "taking their time" and muddy up everything.

There are 28 targets....and yet we see way over 5 hours, into 6 and 7 hours....for WHAT? Don't gimme "its too hot"....the temps get HOT in late JULY no matter where you shoot. Don't gimme steep courses....there are STEEP COURSES all over the WESTERN USA, and they can be found in the NE, the SW, the Midwest, and the SE too.

Technology can be USED...sure, why not? But IMHO, it is being ABUSED by many that are clueless as to the limitations of it, and that don't give one iota if it takes them 9 hours for 28 targets...they are out there to "jaw it with our friends and enjoy the DAY." But then, they'll be the ones to start complaining: "IT took us ALL DAY to shoot that course...good grief! And it was SO HOT!" Well, if you didn't triple or quadruple inspect things at EVERY TARGET and every shooting station...maybe it wouldn't TAKE SO LONG???? You still shoot 4's anyways! hahaha.

Well...It is a known weather-related FACT that the temperature tops out...NOT AT NOON..but more like around 2PM to 2:30PM on a sunny day...(UNLESS...a front passes through). Gee...I wonder WHY way back when, the 5-hour time limits WORKED and got people off the range BEFORE the temperatures topped out....8AM or 9AM...plus 5 hours = 1PM or 2PM...BEFORE the temperature peaks out....and normally BEFORE the thunder-bumpers really start to build too!

And people without "technology"...we soooo STUPID...?????

Nope...too many things about the big-3 "techno-toys" are NOT conducive to FURTHERING THE GAME and DRAWING IN MORE SHOOTERS...quite the opposite if you just sit down and pay attention to things...and WHO are the "elitists" and who are the "realists." And the OLD FARTS are NOT the first ones, either.... Just the added price alone will turn away shooters to even try the field game if they are told, "If you want to shoot good, then you need this, you need this, and you just GOTTA HAVE..this...to the tone of another $700 or so in addition to the cooll $1,500 or more you just dropped for bow, site, scope, release, and arrows... Yep, that will get them right out there with us really fast!

There is your ELITISM...in full action...wanna join?

field14


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Holy crap...the flood gates are open now...

Not only is f14 here :wink:

but I shot with another person using a PALM today :doh:

I wish I had one today I hit the course with a 20yd mark and that's it:embara: and so did the PALM shooter....

I wish I had one today.....he ended up shooting a 540 something....


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Jeez Field, haven't you got the word yet.

Archery is too hard. Read half the stuff posted around here and it would be enough to scare the you know whats off a brass monkey.

You gotta have the thousand buck bow, 300 buck points on your 500 buck a dozen shafts. The release that won whatever the last tournament was. Zee gutt German Optiks. And battery powered everything

..............Cause without it all you just cannot compete. Fingers are obsolete! The guy that just shot everybodys lights out at the local club with a 5 year old bow is living in a fools paradise, he got his yardage by magical guesswork and figures cuts by looking back at the horizon Could not possibly be talent:wink:

....................Because it's just toooooooo hard a sport


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Jeez Field, haven't you got the word yet.
> 
> Archery is too hard. Read half the stuff posted around here and it would be enough to scare the you know whats off a brass monkey.
> 
> ...


Oh, I get it....Just like STUDYING in school and doing your SCHOOL WORK is too hard, too...so the teachers are pretty much forced to TEACH THE TEST...because, afterall....learing the MATERIAL and OBJECTIVES...is too much like work...so GIVE IT TO ME...I do NOT want to work for it. Getting to work on time is too difficult too...they should be paying you from the time you leave the house until you get back to the house...You start work at 8AM...doesn't that mean you leave the house at 8:01AM and get to work at 8:15AM and still get full pay?

Sorta like ASA...TELL THEM THE TEST....GIVE THEM the 20 they'll shoot all year....otherwise, archery is too HARD....

And....Just who's fault is it to go to a tournament with ONLY a 20 yard mark (probably not accurate enough for good site marks anyways, since if it is in the X...that is called good enough for indoors, haha.???? HMMMMM.

If the palm pilot is so good....ONLY a 540? What gives with that non-competitive score? Probably the marks there were plugged into it (starting with the 20 yarder...were GARBAGE...afterall, the palm-pilot is an automatic 5-ring hit and an automatic 20. Step on up, buy one on special and shooting prowess automatically jumps 15, 20, or maybe 30 points....out of the bleu.

Sacre bleu...why didn't these come along sooner...then the NFAA could come up with a "BONUS" system of giving 6 points for an X or something on a field round...gotta keep the competition away from being ELITIST...

Yep, promote the GOTTA HAVE for the techno-toys...the price of all the paraphenalia goes up by another $500-$700 for the "techno-toys"....that GOTTA BE USED...otherwise...you cannot stay with 'them.' Real encouragement for a working person with a family.

Let's see....techno-toys for mom, techno-toys for Joey, techno-toys for dad...for a family outing to a field tournament....because afterall, you MUST shoot with your competition....so that is yet another $2100 for "equipment" that you gotta have....makes archery such a "cheap" family sport....Man we just gotta take up field archery.....

When will the NONSENSE stop? It is already too late, IMHO....and 3-D is getting just as bad with "techno" stuff too...just not on such a "visible" scale is all....Just gotta spend $4,000 on a set of 3-D targets to memorize, is all....just GOTTA....Yep, really encourages the backyard every-day shooter to come join in the EXPENSIVE FUN....GOTTA HAVE THIS, GOTTA HAVE THAT....
Pricing ourselves right out of the future of the game...and taking the integrity of the REAL GAME to zilch. But the newbies don't care....gotta have the techno-toys....WIN at all costs...even if those toys aren't REALLY giving you much of anything at all...if you THINK they are...then spend the bucks and impress your friends with your wizardry....at shooting 4's anyways, hahaha.

field14:tongue::wink:


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Big Deal*

Went to a field shoot today in Massachusetts. Did not see one Palm, inclinometer, or range finder (except my range finder which I checked a few targets for accurate distance because it was our first time on a new range). And this was on a course that was VERY challenging for up hills and side hills. I know several people who have one or all of the techno goodies but seldom use them except on an exceptional target that they have not encountered before. As far as this imagined techno revolution slowing Field shooting down to a crawl I just haven't encountered it at the local, state, sectional, or National shoots.
I guess it's great to have something to go off on a rant over but it's like developing a product to answer a problem that doesn't exist. Oh, and I don't know ANYONE who thinks you have to have all the toys to be a competitive field archer. Field, either you are talking through your hat or you have a really weird sample group to base your views on.
Jbird


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Oh, I get it....Just like STUDYING in school and doing your SCHOOL WORK is too hard, too...so the teachers are pretty much forced to TEACH THE TEST...because, afterall....learing the MATERIAL and OBJECTIVES...is too much like work...so GIVE IT TO ME...I do NOT want to work for it. Getting to work on time is too difficult too...they should be paying you from the time you leave the house until you get back to the house...You start work at 8AM...doesn't that mean you leave the house at 8:01AM and get to work at 8:15AM and still get full pay?
> 
> Sorta like ASA...TELL THEM THE TEST....GIVE THEM the 20 they'll shoot all year....otherwise, archery is too HARD....
> 
> ...


 Funny how you never used to see archers with a slide rule or iswas on the range:wink:

The only way it will change is when a dramatic time limit is imposed. Make it 3 hours max and see how much of this detritus gets lugged around. Unless it gets more athletic like biathalon, it'll never change. But that would be toooooo hard as well


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Funny how you never used to see archers with a slide rule or iswas on the range:wink:
> 
> The only way it will change is when a dramatic time limit is imposed. Make it 3 hours max and see how much of this detritus gets lugged around. Unless it gets more athletic like biathalon, it'll never change. But that would be toooooo hard as well


I think 3 hours is a bit short for a TIME LIMIT...but 5 hours is MORE than ample, IMHO. Hot, cool, or otherwise...and ENFORCED time limit WORKS! there is always room to increase it in the event of RAIN, or THUNDERSTORMS and LIGHTNING! 
But for just cuz we wanna take more time....or so we can triple check our techno-toys or pickup and put down our extra baggage? NO!

Give people an unlimited amount of time, as in all day...and there are going to be groups of ABUSERS...

The increase in time out on the courses is certainly not ALL as a result of people getting older...We have ALWAYS had "older" people on the ranges...and 5 hours USED TO BE more than ample time...so where is all this extra time being taken....???? Gotta be the ogling, BS'ing, lolly-gagging, and the use of techno-toys and excess baggage handling...nowhere else for it to come from.

Can't tell me that we NEED MORE TIME...unless it is due simply to the use of added gadgetry. Continued abuses are going to force the issue with regard to TIME LIMITS...it always has....

Egads, am I having fun putting a wrench into the spokes of the techno-toy lovers....hahahaha. Glad they spend their money there instead of on good PRACTICE and good COACHING....Those latter two WORK and would make them BETTER SHOOTERS...and not so dependent upon gadgetry....

field14


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> I think 3 hours is a bit short for a TIME LIMIT...but 5 hours is MORE than ample, IMHO. Hot, cool, or otherwise...and ENFORCED time limit WORKS! there is always room to increase it in the event of RAIN, or THUNDERSTORMS and LIGHTNING!
> But for just cuz we wanna take more time....or so we can triple check our techno-toys or pickup and put down our extra baggage? NO!
> 
> Give people an unlimited amount of time, as in all day...and there are going to be groups of ABUSERS...
> ...


Maybe we need marshalling in effect. Hold a group of slugs while they folks they are holding up play on through a few times, maybe they'll smarten up:embara:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

field14 said:


> The solution is NOT the use of MORE technology and equipment supposedly NEEDED to be purchased in order to be "more competitive"...You cannot EVER convince me that those "techno-toys" are NEEDED to shoot decent scores.
> 
> 
> NOT...when I, personally before my medical problems was shooting into the 550's routinely WITHOUT even the added "plus" of computer generated site tapes, carbon arrows...etc.
> ...


FITA field doesn't even qualifiy F14. I was talking to big name pro in Redding who was going to invest over 2 grand in a pair of 15x40 so that he could read the fine print on the target. Range finders are cheaper

NO venues are safe now from the unholy dollar. Actually people will spend $10,000.00 on a Ranger so they don't have to walk to a tree stand and GPS systems so they don't get lost or have to learn how to use a compass. Maybe bowhunting is doomed along with field because of the techno infection.:wink:

Actually I think that you, Terry Ragsdale, Dean Pridgeon, all started the demise of field archery when you allowed the sport to move away from a stick and a string. Wheels, that technological innovation should be banned from the great sport of field We were so much purer then with out the added speed advantage and let off  Ruination, ruination I say :wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

swerve said:


> _FITA field doesn't even qualifiy F14._ I was talking to big name pro in Redding who was going to invest over 2 grand in a pair of 15x40 so that he could read the fine print on the target. Range finders are cheaper
> 
> NO venues are safe now from the unholy dollar. Actually people will spend $10,000.00 on a Ranger so they don't have to walk to a tree stand and GPS systems so they don't get lost or have to learn how to use a compass. Maybe bowhunting is doomed along with field because of the techno infection.:wink:
> 
> Actually I think that you, Terry Ragsdale, Dean Pridgeon, all started the demise of field archery when you allowed the sport to move away from a stick and a string. Wheels, that technological innovation should be banned from the great sport of field We were so much purer then with out the added speed advantage and let off  Ruination, ruination I say :wink:


Don't tell the EUROPEANS, AUSSIES, etc that "FITA FIELD" doesn't "even" qualify. You have got to realize that there are MORE "target" archers in OTHER COUNTRIES than here in the USA...We Americans are NOT the center of the universe...and "field archery" doesn't start and stop just to let us on or off.

As far as the "demise" of field archery....I personally voted AGAINST the legalization of release aids in the early 1970's...and would vote the same again if the opportunity arose. 

Blame Allen and Jennings for the "wheels"...we old farts had little to do with that...other than using them when they becaome LEGAL...In fact, compound bows were NOT LEGAL for "target/FITA" competitions in OHIO when I first got there in 1974! We had to shoot our 900 rounds and FITA with a stick bow and fingers! In fact, it was early 1975 before we were allowed to compete with release/compound in Ohio for shooting the 900 rounds and FITA! And even then, there was literally a FENCE between the REAL FITA shooters (Darrel Pace) and "compounders"....and you didn't cross the line!

SOME PAA shooters would not even shoot on the same shooting line with a compound/release shooter...they'd step off the line instead!

field14


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Field , the last outdoor nationals i attended, Yankton 2006, there were techno toys all over the place. Yet the only group that the groups that I were in were held up by a group of barebow shooters without any techno toys. Go figure.


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

field14 said:


> Don't tell the EUROPEANS, AUSSIES, etc that "FITA FIELD" doesn't "even" qualify. You have got to realize that there are MORE "target" archers in OTHER COUNTRIES than here in the USA...We Americans are NOT the center of the universe...and "field archery" doesn't start and stop just to let us on or off.
> 
> As far as the "demise" of field archery....I personally voted AGAINST the legalization of release aids in the early 1970's...and would vote the same again if the opportunity arose.
> 
> ...


I was speaking more of the techno aspect of FITA field, not the viability of the venue. Really good binoculars can double as range finders, if you can read the target size in the corner.

I guess I am more of the shoot what you bring type. Regardless of how many gadgets somebody carries, they still have to make the shot. Most guys that I have shot with you don't notice the gadgets. It's part of their target read and shot sequence. They have practised enough that it's not really an issue.

Most shoots people spend way more time looking for arrows than the gadget guys spend using their gadgets.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Field , the last outdoor nationals i attended, Yankton 2006, there were techno toys all over the place. Yet the only group that the groups that I were in were held up by a group of barebow shooters without any techno toys. Go figure.


That was the year people were complaining about taking 6 hours and in some cases LONGER to shoot their 28 targets?

Whatever happened to 5 hours or LESS?????? People flocked away from field shooting due to it taking over 4 hours for 28 targets...and now we are up to SIX HOURS or more?

It sure isn't from "more old people", or "tougher courses"...it is due to "technology" and battle scrambling, ogling, jawing around, and just plain taking MORE TIME for little to no gain. Plain and simple.

Give people and inch...they'll take a foot or a yard...

This taking past 5 hours is, IMHO a direct result of all the piddling and calculating and ogling that REALLY is NOT necessary..but if "they" can get away with it..."they" will do it over and over and over...and take longer and longer and longer...until someone puts their foot down.

Same is happening in 3-D...it isn't the number of people on the course...it is the number of people ABUSING and/or going right at the max (or in many cases, OVER the max) time limit per shot, carrying paraphenalia, blocking wind with umbies, picking up junk, setting it down, ogling, and "guessing" yardages.

TWO minutes for each shooter for ONE shot? C'mon...it doesn't take THAT long.

Of course, the devout 3-ders are going to say that they "planned" on spending the entire day anyways...so what does it matter...but those same people were bad-mouthing FIELD shooting several years back for taking so long....

So what do field shooters start to do? TAKE LONGER and add more JUNK to their repertoire of gadgetry...the very thing incoming shooters despise...and yet the newbies and wannabees say it is the OLD FARTS that have caused the LONGER SHOOTING TIMES? Not hardly. Calibrate this, check that, calculate this and that...only to still shoot the "4" on that shot...that could have been done minutes ago with pretty mucht the same result, and less hassle to boot.

Wrench in spokes...Bait of the day..."techno-poison." hahaha:wink::tongue:

Small piece of "chain" dangling...and the fieldman will pull on it, haha
And if you techno-lovers are going to say, "Well, we planned on being out there to shoot and enjoy the company of our friends, so it doesn't matter...." THEN...don't come back and complain how HOT it was outside when you could have gotten to heck off the range a couple of hours BEFORE the temperature TOPS OUT...IF you weren't lolly-gagging around triple checking everything with all the extra paraphenalia snot you carry with you these days...
field14


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Field the only time it even came close to us getting close to the five hour limit was when we got behind the barebow shooters and they sure didnt have any of the techno toys except binoculars on their belts.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Don't tell the EUROPEANS, AUSSIES, etc that "FITA FIELD" doesn't "even" qualify. You have got to realize that there are MORE "target" archers in OTHER COUNTRIES than here in the USA...We Americans are NOT the center of the universe...and "field archery" doesn't start and stop just to let us on or off.
> 
> As far as the "demise" of field archery....I personally voted AGAINST the legalization of release aids in the early 1970's...and would vote the same again if the opportunity arose.
> 
> ...


 There was damn good reason for that too.


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Hutnicks said:


> There was damn good reason for that too.


 You damn elitist.:wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> There was damn good reason for that too.



At least those PAA shooters seemed to think so...but it soon passed as they "got used to the idea"....

The split with FITA/NAA was far worse, however....separation of the shooters on the same field...by a FENCE, and at some FITA/NAA shoots....the FITA shooters were not even on the line on their side of the fence at the same time as the compounders....that made for a very LONG day!

But, that, too passed...but not readily and easily.

I'll say one thing about the FITA/NAA shooters...they don't lolly-gag and toy around...because their TIME LIMIT is clear, unequivocal, and ENFORCED to the letter...no waffling on their rules.

field14:tongue::wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

swerve said:


> You damn elitist.:wink:


Absolutely oh wavereing one. I am still of the opinion that one of the worst things to happen to archery as a whole was the big push on the compound in the late 70's and 80's. I could expand on Fields posts with the technical starvation in the trade it caused but. The worst effect it has had is that folks no longer get taught on a recurve first. And that in my humble opinion (hey I get paid by the word) is one of the worst disservices you could do for a new archer.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> At least those PAA shooters seemed to think so...but it soon passed as they "got used to the idea"....
> 
> The split with FITA/NAA was far worse, however....separation of the shooters on the same field...by a FENCE, and at some FITA/NAA shoots....the FITA shooters were not even on the line on their side of the fence at the same time as the compounders....that made for a very LONG day!
> 
> ...


You haven't mentioned some of the attitudes of the compounders yet. The snottiness was by no means the pure purview of the recurve archers.
"Why in five years nobody will be making recurves anymore, and they're finished as an Olympic sport, they only brought archery back because of the compound bow." 
Yup wheelguys were real prophet's back then, and new how to make friends and influence people
And those FITA rules are Internationally enforced as well. you get the same infractions in Korea as you do here or anywhere else.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> You haven't mentioned some of the attitudes of the compounders yet. The snottiness was by no means the pure purview of the recurve archers.
> "Why in five years nobody will be making recurves anymore, and they're finished as an Olympic sport, they only brought archery back because of the compound bow."
> Yup wheelguys were real prophet's back then, and new how to make friends and influence people
> And those FITA rules are Internationally enforced as well. you get the same infractions in Korea as you do here or anywhere else.


You mean like "throwing matches" for the hopeful betterment of the "team"???

Or INTENTIONALLY having your bow over 60 pounds peak...and KNOWINGLY trying to sneak it by (TWICE in one year for the same archeress!!).

Compounders 'thinking' that recurvers were dying out...only to find out that the RECURVE world record FITA for WOMEN...was HIGHER for many years than the COMPOUND world-record was!

The USA does NOT corner the market on archery on a world-scale...far from it. We just "think" we dominate is all, and the gap is narrowing on compounds (the Non-USA shooters are CATCHING UP)...and WIDENING (the USA is on the LOSING END OF THIS) in the RECURVE end of archery!

I agree that not having a shooter familiar with how to shoot a recurve is a disservice to the game. 
I know MANY, MANY supposed "top-notch" compound/release shooters that have never had their fingers on the bowstring, and couldn't pull and hold a "FITA level" recurve without some very serious problematical items coming into play...BACK TENSION being the BIGGEST ISSUE, along with STRENGTH and CONDITIONING, along with resolve, humility, and "stick-to-itiveness."

field14


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> You mean like "throwing matches" for the hopeful betterment of the "team"???
> 
> Or INTENTIONALLY having your bow over 60 pounds peak...and KNOWINGLY trying to sneak it by (TWICE in one year for the same archeress!!).
> 
> ...


Funny thing is, I could always put a newb on the line with a recurve an let em at it for a 1/2 or a full hour then talk to them about what they thought they were doing right and wrong.

Same scenario with a compound and about 1 minute and 3.5 seconds later some yobb is over there spewing draw length and timing nonesense to a kid who A) doesn't know and B) couldn't care less at this point. 
Put a recurve in the yobb's face and he clams up like a wallflower at the school dance. But with a compound in hand he turns into Thomas friggin Edison

Back Tension - please don't get me started on that whole camp. I cannot wait for that whole mess to go the way of the overdraw:wink:


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