# $800 bucks for a machined piece of aluminum?



## crownimperial (Jan 26, 2009)

I mean it just doesn't add up for me. I cant imagine it costs them any more then 100-200 bucks for the materials, machining and anodization and they do it all in bulk. I haven't shot in about 7 or 8 years and have been looking to get back into the sport. The prices on some of these competition bows are absolutely astronomical now days. Its pretty sad, I really don't know how people can afford it. It feels like we are getting ripped off from some of these larger company's. 

Please bear in mind I don't mean to rustle any feathers, its just food for thought. If I am wrong explain to me why.


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## fingolete (Jun 9, 2016)

I think that's the top tier price (olympic medallist quality) you can find good and cheaper risers! Cheers!!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

That's because you're using the logic that the riser is only a piece of aluminum arbitrarily machined into a random shape that was not researched upon, looks like a high school project, to be sold at a garage sale, at a loss.


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## eclark53520 (Sep 11, 2012)

It's not just a machined hunk of Aluminum. Not even close.

There's research & Development(people, equipment, software, etc), testing(also people, equipment, etc), patents, copyrighting, taxes, benefits, lawsuits, customer service, dealer service, packaging/shipping, supply and demand, supply chains and much more that they have to cover in order to go from hunk of Aluminum, to a bow you can shoot. 

Also, they're not ripping you off. They're selling bows at the price the market will bear. Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean they're 'ripping you off'. Even if they were selling bows for 1000% profit, they're not ripping you off.


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## crownimperial (Jan 26, 2009)

I get what you are saying, I really do. But it just looks to me like they are regurgitating the same technology over and over every year in different configurations. I mean the newer risers are basically the same tech as 7 years ago from what I can see. You compare an areotech to a helix and then to a newer design and its really all the same stuff. I'm sure these company's understand they have a fairly small demographic which they are selling to, meaning they have to charge more per sale being as there are fewer sales. But at the end of the day I feel like its really hurting the sport as a whole. Say if a were a parent whose child wanted to get into competitive shooting, I would be extremely hesitant after making a trip to a shop and seeing most of those price tags.


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

Hoyt has been good lately about not going crazy on recurve prices... W&W on the other hand, is BSC 1100 for a riser?!


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

This is why the used/pre owned market for archery equipment is so active.


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## Field Drifter (May 7, 2014)

True, if you have to have a new riser. It's not altogether rehashed. There are some subtle variances that do make a difference. The great thing is that sooooo many people have to have the newest equipment that they're willing to let go of perfectly wonderful gear for a song.

Anyone in manufacturing will tell you the markup is four times the cost to build. Retailers, taxes, shipping, materials, insurance, tooling, returns, R&D... everyone has to put food on their table.

It IS only worth what someone will pay for it.


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## Field Drifter (May 7, 2014)

Darrell Pace broke 1300 using aluminum arrows and kevlar strings. i couldn't do it with a Howiter.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

crownimperial said:


> I get what you are saying, I really do. But it just looks to me like they are regurgitating the same technology over and over every year in different configurations. I mean the newer risers are basically the same tech as 7 years ago from what I can see.


Pretty much the same for every sport, or every manufacturer, for that matter. Your 10 year old golf clubs and dishwasher and car will still do the job they were intended to if you keep them maintained. But no company can survive by manufacturing for one or two years an item with a 10 year lifespan, and then packing up and closing the factory. 

40 years ago, if you wanted the best competition recurve equipment, you had pretty much only two choices in bows (Hoyt TD2 or Yamaha YTSL) and one choice in arrows (Easton aluminum). These days there are probably 50 high end risers on the market, from 10 different companies. Anyone wanting to survive in the market needs to convince people that not owning their product is the only thing between them and the podium. And as several people have mentioned, there's a lot more than a hunk of metal and a few hours labor invested in that $800 riser.

But you need to remember that nobody is forcing you to buy an $800 riser or $650 driver or $100,000 car for your kid just starting archery, or golf or driving. There are and always have been been lower cost options.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

The questions are:

Cost of materials 
Cost of manufacturing 
Cost of engineering/development 
Profit markup for manufacturer and retailer 

and yes, here it comes, the rip off potential for "name brands" and "new and improved" (aka: buyer ego). 

I don't know the numbers or statistics for each of those points, but I'd take a pretty good guess there's no one alive who could gain or loose a point by going from a solid entry/intermediate level riser (or limbs or anything else, for that matter) to this years' top of the line stuff. 

Viper1 out.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

$800 for a machined aluminum riser is an absolute bargain. Even if the design is old and the engineering expenses are paid off, you are talking about 3-dimensional curved surfaces and features cut on a 5-axis mill. On top of that, the riser is fully polished, anodized, and fitted with steel inserts and parts that themselves need to be machined. If I gave a set of drawings to a shop and asked them to make one, the cost would easily be around $5-10K.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

eclark53520 said:


> It's not just a machined hunk of Aluminum. Not even close.
> 
> There's research & Development(people, equipment, software, etc), testing(also people, equipment, etc), patents, copyrighting, taxes, benefits, lawsuits, customer service, dealer service, packaging/shipping, supply and demand, supply chains and much more that they have to cover in order to go from hunk of Aluminum, to a bow you can shoot.
> 
> Also, they're not ripping you off. They're selling bows at the price the market will bear. Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean they're 'ripping you off'. Even if they were selling bows for 1000% profit, they're not ripping you off.



This 100%. 

If you dont want to spend $800 for a riser, that is your choice. There are risers from $100 and up. Get a Hoyt Horizon. 

The used market has quality equipment and gear at a much reduced rate. 

Just because you dont see the value in a $800 riser, doesnt mean they are ripping you off. It means you are not at a level to realize the difference or appreciate the quality.

Much the same as i would never pay $1000 for a bottle of wine. Its just squeezed grapes left to sit for a while. And wine technologies havent improved in a thousand years. You can get a bottle of wine for under $10 bucks all day and its all bitter. But i do not have the level of experience or taste to appreciate an expensive bottle.

Doesnt mean wine companies are ripping me off.


Chris


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## gdrudd13 (Feb 16, 2016)

Even mass produced, with the level of precision that is required on the high end risers, the cost to machine one will still be very high. For example, a Haas brand 5 axis mill, the smallest they make STARTS at over $110,000. That's before options that would be required on a machine used for a production environment, like high speed machining ($10,000+ option). Then there are additional costs like toolholders and machining vices, etc. And a lot of these can eventually wear out. The consumables are expensive as well. Items like the end mills/cutting inserts, the coolant. Then there is maintenance on the machine, the operator has to know what they're doing, not just anyone can get on a machine and make it work. It isn't as easy as just pressing "Go". So $800 for all that, while higher than what I am willing to pay right now, really isn't that unreasonable.


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## toxoph (Mar 24, 2005)

Also, don't forget longevity (time value of money), I just retired my Spigarelli 1300 after 25 years, it was the first machined recurve riser, and I guarantee it can still shoot world class scores (Not in my hands though!). I just bought a world class GMX riser ($650) and I plan on shooting it nearly as long.


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## UtahIdahoHunter (Mar 27, 2008)

I'm just happy that companies are machining quality barebow risers. Most new are out of reach of my budget, but I don't mind buying second hand. No complaints here.


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

toxoph said:


> Also, don't forget longevity (time value of money), I just retired my Spigarelli 1300 after 25 years, it was the first machined recurve riser, and I guarantee it can still shoot world class scores (Not in my hands though!). I just bought a world class GMX riser ($650) and I plan on shooting it nearly as long.


I just got my GMX in yesterday. Benn setting it up today, hoping to shoot tommorrow.


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## Boatman71 (Jul 16, 2013)

I am in the mfg business and have operated machines that make parts like a risor and also know what aluminum costs. All actuality, a machined hunk of billet aluminum the size of a risor should cost less than $100, its the below that adds all the cost into it. That post hit the nail on the head.





eclark53520 said:


> It's not just a machined hunk of Aluminum. Not even close.
> 
> There's research & Development(people, equipment, software, etc), testing(also people, equipment, etc), patents, copyrighting, taxes, benefits, lawsuits, customer service, dealer service, packaging/shipping, supply and demand, supply chains and much more that they have to cover in order to go from hunk of Aluminum, to a bow you can shoot.
> 
> Also, they're not ripping you off. They're selling bows at the price the market will bear. Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean they're 'ripping you off'. Even if they were selling bows for 1000% profit, they're not ripping you off.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

For things made in China or Korea they are only making 3.00 an hour...their products should be much cheaper. But I shoot win win and the quality has been worth the cost.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

I bought my first recurve for under $50. That same bow today is $700.
Got my first compound and paid under $100 and a great one for $150.
The cheapest bows today are about $500 and better ones begin at about $1000. Use the word target that $1000 bow become $1700. Double that when you add in all the newest, greatest must have accessories. Good, bad or indifferent we buy anyway. Toys are in our DNA but there is a tipping point where common sense recovers from the sales hype that makes grown men kids again. 
There might come a time when manufacturers will price themselves out of business.
I've seen guys spend thousands to increase speed a few feet a second. Saw one couple get a divorce when toys became more important than the home. So is a chunk of metal worth the price? Is this years super bow better than last years? Is one new high priced sight better than last years? Sorry to say but you don't always get what you're paying for.
Sad to say I see families that can't afford family archery and others that have the resources to not give a crap one way or another.
N


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## whitetailshot (Jun 29, 2016)

I see what your saying. Ive been into archery for 18 years now. Although the technology in part may seem to be the same, your on look to that technology is the only thing that is the same. I am old school too. I started with a Myles Keller XI Flatliner. Very, very heavy bow as compared to today's compounds. And for the most part the speed was quit fast for the times. almost 293 ft./per/sec.(fastest prduction bow at the time) But geared up weighed about 9lb.s I have since moved to a 2009 PSE Super Short (3.5 lbs.), and 2 Obsessions weighing in at about 3.7 lbs. The speed of my newer bows is just over 300 ft./per/sec. But although I paid 659.00 and 959.99 for each of my Obsession bows the weight, speed, and overall pleasure to shoot not to mention accuracy outweighs the price. 15 years ago I would not have carried the XI Flatliner the time nor distances of my newer bows. Way to heavy , and by the time I was on stand I didn't want to draw it back....too tired... So It really boils down to you get what you want to pay for, along with some inflation. It costs more to build now a days. Hope this might have helped you.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> For things made in China or Korea they are only making 3.00 an hour...their products should be much cheaper.


they make more than $3.00 per hour. They have modern factories. They cut the price of manufacturing but the government owns the factories and mills (China). The manufacturing in China and South Korea is the same as in the USA. But the US government doesnt own the factories and subsidize them. 

In fact, many of the factories in China and South Korea are MORE modern than the counterparts in the USA. I remember in the 1960s and 1970s if it said made in Japan, it was cheap. Then that got good quality and the cheap was made in Taiwan. Maybe in Mexico they have low wages like $3.00 per hour, but not in China and South Korea. I do manufacturing in China, India and have looked into South Korea.


Chris


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

Well, my Daughter earned about $400 every 2 weeks at McDonalds when she was in High School. So $800 for a riser that might get the other shooter to choke when he sees it, might not be such a high cost anymore. I personally went with well reviewed intermediate choices , and really don't see how a high dollar build will help my aim.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

You can't say that we are not paying alot just for the name on products. I respect the quality that I have gotten paying for win win. But as far as the hoyts I have owned the quality did not warrant the price. I have owned two high end hoyt risers and top range hoyt limbs and limbs slightly twisted or bent riser. I don't think that I should have to put all the shims on one side of the dowel to get my 750$ limbs to align correctly.


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## stoneam2006 (Dec 30, 2014)

As I am a machinist by trade and run a 5 axis mill I can chime in a bit. 

Just turning my machine on I can imagine the electric cost let alone running it with load

The tooling used in cnc are very expensive I use some tooling that's over 1000 just for the tool and the inserts are extra. Yes you can reuse the tool but inserts are changed offten.

Then you have engineering...drafting...R&D...all who work on it then planners machinists shippers who work on it.

Then the money spent to inform people of the product...

Then the cost of the stock.

Alot of money into making things in a factory.

Then inflation sence the last time you bought one may impact it as well

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Edit....ohhhh and the tighter the tolerances the more it costs


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

*How the Other Half Lives*

http://metzlerviolins.com/l-morizot-violin-bow-silver-ebony-with-charles-luc-hommel-certificate-592-g/dp/2365
Example of the tiny side-dish (although it does come with a Certificate of Authenticity).

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/299783-average-price-if-violin-for-pro-orchestra-players/
Interesting discussion concerning the main entrée. Note what the "serious students" tend to pay for their primary equipment (minus the tiny side-dish).

https://www.lyonhealy.com/special-louis-xv-special-concert-grand.htm
And ... believe it or not ... I was lucky enough to pluck "Camptown Races" on this beast while it was on display at a trade show. First and only time I've ever played this particular type of instrument. (Price at bottom of page.) The company reps were in understandable shock and dismay as I mangled the tune on this elegant instrument.

Just for perspective, and perhaps to humorously alleviate some of archery's sticker-shock for a brief moment.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

You can still get Best Zenit at around 440 euros from mainland Europe. It will out-shoot any of the "top" brands.

There isn't real competition in the market (mass market, ppl who inhabit this forum are generally quite knowledgeable folk, and know of alternatives unlike your basic hobbyist), that's what drives costs up. It's just the fallacy of post-modernism that makes us constantly want newest and shiniest things, with increasing price tag.

I think the last "new" bow I've bought was a Hoyt Gold Medalist.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> they make more than $3.00 per hour. They have modern factories. They cut the price of manufacturing but the government owns the factories and mills (China). The manufacturing in China and South Korea is the same as in the USA. But the US government doesnt own the factories and subsidize them.
> 
> In fact, many of the factories in China and South Korea are MORE modern than the counterparts in the USA. I remember in the 1960s and 1970s if it said made in Japan, it was cheap. Then that got good quality and the cheap was made in Taiwan. Maybe in Mexico they have low wages like $3.00 per hour, but not in China and South Korea. I do manufacturing in China, India and have looked into South Korea.
> 
> ...


While I'm not going to argue their factories are probably more up to date than ours, their wages, overall....are MUCH lower than ours and on a lower scale.
Maybe you found the only game in town that's expensive, but any search will give you global wages.

It is less than a tenth of US counterparts in factories.


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## Tbarkeriii (Jun 24, 2016)

wages are getting closer but the overheads, which can be 150-200% of direct labor costs in the United States, are nowhere similar. American manufacturing is a race horse but it is carrying a 300 lb jockey. Between the government subsidies and lower government mandates, (health insurance, EPA, family leave, etc.) it is hard for US manufacturing to compete. All those overheads are reflected in the cost of the finished product.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

So far, in 4 years my SKY TR-7 riser has cost me about $.015 (1-1/2 pennies) per arrow shot. For the pleasure I've received, that's a bargain.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

It's a faulty discourse. Hourly labour costs are at similar level (taken into account the difference between social security costs, in hourly earnings Italy is actually costlier) between USA and Italy, but Italian manufacturers can churn out risers 2/3 the cost US manufacturers do. Korean real wages are at about 90% of their US counterparts.

In globalization, flexicurity and flexibility discourse this is a common fallacy, based on the hegemonic discourse. It is something I've been writing a book about lately, so it doesn't surprise me to see it pop up in this discussion too.

A bit data: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AV_AN_WAGE

I'd also recommend Stiglitz' book, "Globalizations and Its Discontents", David Harvey's book "Enigma of Capital" and Richard Sennett's book "The Culture of New Capitalism" if you want to see the argument laid out.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Also have to remember, there is always a population of people who will buy the "next big thing" simply for the sake of buying it. Just look at Apple. Every year they come out with a new iPhone that's almost exactly the same as last years model, yet people camp outside Apple stores to get it when it is released. Another example, I know people who salivate over Hoyt and pray to the brand like its a god. Then when Hoyt releases a new bow, they buy it just because they can. Now, I am not saying that is everyone who shoots a Hoyt, that's just an example, however we all know those types exist. I'm positive bow companies take their "fanboys" if you will, into account when they market a new bow. Popularity hype rakes in major cash. I'v worked in a bow shop before and people have come to me asking for the newest thing from the newest company but they don't even have a reason for wanting it other than it's new. Will the new thing make you a better shooter? Maybe. Probably not though. So when you have people who compulsively buy the newest product, why wouldn't you slap a $800 price tag on it???


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Just a thought from the outfield. In 1996 I spent almost 2 weeks pay, $400 dollars, on a brand new Hoyt Avalon Plus for my son that was getting very serious in the Olympic recurve style. In the past 20 years that bow has had hundreds of thousands of arrows shot through it and it is still as solid as the day it was purchased. I can't think of anything I have purchased 20 years ago that has worn as well. That is why I spend the money on quality equipment. Was it worth the money, absolutely.


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## PaulME (Jun 11, 2014)

Lots of appropriate comments - in terms of what adds on to the pure material cost and machine time.
A point I would reinforce is that marketing has taken over in a lot of these companies. Come out with model year changes so it is obvious you have the old stuff and are not keeping up, they guy next to you with the newest clearly must have an advantage.... Go out and get the new stuff, only to repeat every year or so.

My analogy here is the racing bicycle industry. 20 or maybe it was 30 years ago everyone rode Campy Nuovo Record. IT was the best stuff, did not change year to year, just buy it and replace when damaged etc. Then Shimano came out with index shifting (yes a real improvement), oo who has the best now, then the race to ever more gears... Now they are at the point where they make model year changes with no real improvement save maybe shaving a few grams, and lots of people run out and buy the latest and greatest.

Get new and shiny if it makes you happy and you can afford it, otherwise shoot what works for you. Outside of the psych factor $$$ on a riser are not going to get you a spot on the National Team.
Paul


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

A product is worth and will sell for what the market will bare. Capitalism. It works.

As said before the "cost" of a product is never just the material cost or even the labor.

Retail has a mark up of up to 200%, yet the retail stores show a much lower overall profit, or sadly loss.

costs associated with any product may include, materials, direct labor, indirect labor, R&D, marketing, insurance, rent, tariffs, retirement, taxes, inventory losses, etc. etc. And that is just the manufacturer.

Now add similar tier for the retailer, inventory control, inventory loss, direct labor, indirect labor, marketing, taxes, insurance, etc, etc.

It is now wonder items cost that much.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

When I purchased my first take down competition bow in 1974 (Bear Take Down, aluminium casted riser and fiber-wood limbs, top of the market in that age) , it costed me exactly 1 month of salary. I was a low level employee at that time, so if I compare salary to salary in same position today , same level of bow in terms of market positioning should cost now close to 1100 Euro in Italy, but is at 1500 Euro. 30% price increase (including 10% more of taxes) in 42 years, approximately. 
But, at same level of relative perfomance, you can buy several combinations of ILF bows, with risers and limbs from same or different manufacturers, and you can win any level of competition including Olympic Games spending less than 1000 Euro in total.

Top price for a 25" ILF aluminium milled riser today is 1300 euro from Smartriser, in my knowledge. 
Cheapest in the market is under 400 Euro. 
Lower prices , risers are forged and then milled, and go down to 220 euro
Much lower prices, they are all die casted and go down to 90 Euro 
So, around 14 times from most expensive to the cheapest. Then you pay what you want to get, in terms of performance , finishing and brand image, exactly like you do when you buy your car. Why to spend 60,000 Euro (and up to 1 million Euro) for a car, when you can drive 4 wheels with an engine safely with less than 5000 Euro?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Anyone wanting to survive in the market needs to convince people that not owning their product is the only thing between them and the podium.


- precisely the reason I could never be in marketing. You essentially have to lie to keep your job. And if not lie, then tell half truths or not answer certain questions. I just don't understand how some people not only do this on a regular basis, but are still widely loved an respected for it. 

Archery risers are not complicated tools. There is just no way on earth a $1000 riser is going to out-shoot a clean used $400 riser that was "top of the line" just a few years ago. Pity for the manufacturers that they chose to enter a business where their products are not disposable, and the technology doesn't change. If that's a problem for them, there are other businesses to get into where those things are true.

I have a great deal of respect for manufacturers who only release a new product when there is truly something better about it than their last. PSE, Spigarelli, BEST all come to mind. They work hard to make a great product, then stand by that product year after year.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I have a great deal of respect for manufacturers who only release a new product when there is truly something better about it than their last. PSE, Spigarelli, BEST all come to mind. They work hard to make a great product, then stand by that product year after year.


Also Mk Korea


Chris


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I have a great deal of respect for manufacturers who only release a new product when there is truly something better about it than their last. *PSE*, Spigarelli, BEST all come to mind. They work hard to make a great product, then stand by that product year after year.


True in recurve, but every bit as guilty in the compound world. That being said, your point is certainly valid as all of the mentioned companies build a solid product (in recurve) and then keep building it. I would say Bernardini probably fits too.


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## PaulME (Jun 11, 2014)

Vittorio's excellent summary brings up a question on construction techniques.

Per the listing fully machined risers represent the costliest option (made from a solid block of aluminum - say billet to a much of machinists and watch the fur fly). These are typically viewed as the top end risers (ignoring carbon fiber etc). Forged aluminum and then machined look to represent the tier below.
Now the question - forging typically is an improvement in strength. You are forcing the material into close to final shape and you get improved properties, the tooling to forge the shape is not cheap (you will not have to carve away as much of the material saving machining time).

Forged automotive wheels are stronger and lighter than ones machined form solid.

So why are forged risers not at the top of the heap?

Paul


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## stoneam2006 (Dec 30, 2014)

PaulME said:


> Vittorio's excellent summary brings up a question on construction techniques.
> 
> Per the listing fully machined risers represent the costliest option (made from a solid block of aluminum - say billet to a much of machinists and watch the fur fly). These are typically viewed as the top end risers (ignoring carbon fiber etc). Forged aluminum and then machined look to represent the tier below.
> Now the question - forging typically is an improvement in strength. You are forcing the material into close to final shape and you get improved properties, the tooling to forge the shape is not cheap (you will not have to carve away as much of the material saving machining time).
> ...


My opinion on casted vs billet is that castings tend to have more impurities and in some products can lead to inconsistent weight or strength. So in a bow I'd want billet and other products too. Just my .02

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

PaulME said:


> Forged automotive wheels are stronger and lighter than ones machined form solid.
> 
> So why are forged risers not at the top of the heap?
> 
> Paul


They used to be. Some of the best risers ever made are forged aluminium, like Yamaha/Nishi risers, Samick Masters and Ultra (which many, including me, think is the best riser ever produced, at least one of the most successful).

They are all forged, then painted. It's the problem of getting uniform anodized colour on a forged riser thats knocking them back. Say, 5 years ago people weren't quite as fussy about paint chipping, these days risers cost so much that people expect paint to last decades. My Ultra had big chunks of paint missing, I think it only gave it character. Everyone wants relic'd guitars, so manufacturers have paint them, then relic them before selling them, I'm just waiting for that to happen with bows, so I can dig out my forged risers again...

There is a very distinct feel difference, some prefer milled, some forged. I've always preferred forged stuff.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> The questions are:
> 
> ...


Bing bing bing, winner winner chicken dinner!


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> - precisely the reason I could never be in marketing. You essentially have to lie to keep your job. And if not lie, then tell half truths or not answer certain questions. I just don't understand how some people not only do this on a regular basis, but are still widely loved an respected for it.


I totally agree, and not only do you have to do it once - you have to keep doing it _every single year_, to convince people to buy more stuff to replace the quite likely perfectly adequate stuff they already have.

that's the thinking that results in manufacturers announcing new colours of anodising as a quantum product leap. 

the other thing I love is when they either produce something that contradicts last year's marketing (sooo... were you lying to us then when you told us to buy it?) or even better, reincarnate a concept that was previously discarded.

I primarily shoot FITA compound, but at the moment the market is largely stagnant, and I'm doing quite well restringing existing bows.


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## usafstriker (Jul 9, 2016)

I was lucky to get this set up at a VERY good price. The deals are out there, just be patient and look on different websites.


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

Impressive Yamaha Alpha's kit, such a shame only 1 set of limbs.


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

DK Lieu said:


> $800 for a machined aluminum riser is an absolute bargain.


That's "easy money" for the producer, for the distributor, for the seller... not at all "an absolute bargain" for the buyer. 



DK Lieu said:


> Even if the design is old and the engineering expenses are paid off, you are talking about 3-dimensional curved surfaces and features cut on a 5-axis mill.


So what?
It's not a Michelangelo's sculpture, but just a billet of aluminum drilled by a "dumb" CNC machine, that can easily and consistently build 1 billion of identical items repeating the same iterative program, as long as you feed the production line with proper raw materials.



DK Lieu said:


> On top of that, the riser is fully polished, anodized, and fitted with steel inserts and parts that themselves need to be machined.


So what?
It's not a Raffaello's painting... polishing/ anodyzing are common technologies, and these procedures can be carried with economies of scale. Steel inserts, hardware, and machined parts are standard components, that can be massively produced from countries with low-cost of labour and imported. 



DK Lieu said:


> If I gave a set of drawings to a shop and asked them to make one, the cost would easily be around $5-10K.


You are an optimist: my estimate is higher than $10K to ask a third party to produce only ONE piece... :wink:


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

I 100% agree, with my proposed priorities in bold:



Viper1 said:


> The questions are:
> 
> *(5)*Cost of materials
> *(4)*Cost of manufacturing
> ...


I believe the only exceptions to the statement below are shooting in Rio de Janeiro in the next weeks. :wink:


Viper1 said:


> there's no one alive who could gain or loose a point by going from a solid entry/intermediate level riser (or limbs or anything else, for that matter) to this years' top of the line stuff.


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## usafstriker (Jul 9, 2016)

lscotti said:


> Impressive Yamaha Alpha's kit, such a shame only 1 set of limbs.


Thanks! I was able to get another set of limbs from a guy who used to shoot for Yamaha. They're a slightly higher weight too, so that'll work for my son as he progresses. If he decides to give it up, I'm sure I'll have no problem selling everything.


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## thecoolporygon (Nov 8, 2015)

I also considered trying to manufacture my own riser at my school's shop for a side project, but the shop guys told me that the cast would be way more expensive to make than the actual bow itself. Plus, I'd imagine it'd be pretty tough to make a proper well-shooting riser. But don't quote me on that. Regardless, I buy into the market, because if it isn't broken, don't fix it.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

We are getting ripped, but only cause we pay what they want. $800 riser vs a $900 Honda generator. Look at all the engineering and r&d and only a $100 more than a piece of aluminum machined and anodized. You have to really like archery cause you can buy a $399 savage rifle that will out shoot the most expensive bow. Its a market and we pay to play.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Look at what a cell phone costs vs a laptop.

Pricing is always set based on what the competition is doing an what the most one thinks they can get for it. It is part of the whole strategy. They know they price themselves out of some people's budget, but they know that there are enough people that will pay the higher price that will easily offset the profits lost from selling to the "poor" people.

I have been working in the manufacturing world for 20 years making parts that cost less than a $1 to make to a single piece of glass that cost $2 million dollars to make. $800 for a hunk of aluminum is outrageous. 6061 aluminum is extremely easy to machine and with high speed mills, well less than an hour to cut one. Anodizing is dirt cheap because it is done in lots. An individual would spend $200 to anodize 1, a company will spend $300 to do 100. Its generally a lot charge.

Because most people don't have the knowledge base or the equipment to make their own riser, the prices will stay high.

But are these outrageous prices really bad? bad for those who cant afford it. But Hoyt uses a portion of their profits to support archery in their various forms of sponsorship. Just think, everyone that buys a Hoyt bow, owns a piece of the bow many of the Olympic archers are shooting.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Look at what a cell phone costs vs a laptop.
> 
> Pricing is always set based on what the competition is doing an what the most one thinks they can get for it. It is part of the whole strategy. They know they price themselves out of some people's budget, but they know that there are enough people that will pay the higher price that will easily offset the profits lost from selling to the "poor" people.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of the response an oil exec gave to complaints that gas stations were going to start charging to put air in your tires via coin operated compressors. He said "If you think air is free, try blowing your tire up with your mouth."


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

After three pages of this back and forth non-sense, here's what it comes down to, IMHO anyway.

Is $800 too much for a piece of machined aluminum? 
Well, yes. Especially when you can get a used or older model that will perform every bit as well as the latest and greatest for less than 1/2 that price. 

The guys who have to have the latest and greatest fall into two categories: 
1. They get their stuff free, and are used as billboards for increasing sales (includes "professionals" and shop owners)
2. The guys who have to show off the latest and greatest, more for ego than scores.

...and it's not just archery.

Viper1 out.


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## 5 Arrow (Nov 20, 2015)

DK Lieu said:


> $800 for a machined aluminum riser is an absolute bargain. Even if the design is old and the engineering expenses are paid off, you are talking about 3-dimensional curved surfaces and features cut on a 5-axis mill. On top of that, the riser is fully polished, anodized, and fitted with steel inserts and parts that themselves need to be machined. If I gave a set of drawings to a shop and asked them to make one, the cost would easily be around $5-10K.


And that does not include the CAD or 2D datum and tolerance drawings you need do develop and supply the tool shop.


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## 5 Arrow (Nov 20, 2015)

toxoph said:


> Also, don't forget longevity (time value of money), I just retired my Spigarelli 1300 after 25 years, it was the first machined recurve riser, and I guarantee it can still shoot world class scores (Not in my hands though!). I just bought a world class GMX riser ($650) and I plan on shooting it nearly as long.


You will like the GMX riser although maybe not the factory grip so much. Yager makes several alternate grips you might look into.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

5 - 



> And that does not include the CAD or 2D datum and tolerance drawings you need do develop and supply the tool shop.


That's the straw man in Dennis contention. 
We're not talking about a one-off that might actually cost that much, we're talking about a production item that could sell 10 - 100,000 copies over a number of years. 

Viper1 out.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Look at what a cell phone costs vs a laptop.
> 
> Pricing is always set based on what the competition is doing an what the most one thinks they can get for it. It is part of the whole strategy. They know they price themselves out of some people's budget, but they know that there are enough people that will pay the higher price that will easily offset the profits lost from selling to the "poor" people.
> 
> ...



Id love to cut a riser out in an hour...
infact, id love to cut one out in 4 hours.
Id love to linish one in an hour.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Get a bigger mill, LoL, - its all about horsepower. Volumetric material removal rates is just a function of the applied horsepower in the cut.


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> Id love to cut a riser out in an hour...
> infact, id love to cut one out in 4 hours.
> Id love to linish one in an hour.


The how long does it take to cut one? There is no way this is a day to cut/2-3 days to finish 1 product. You'd have to start years in advance for a world wide release just to hit 5k pieces. Less goes into it than a golf club, and outside of RnD, they can have like 100's of thousands in a very short period of time (including shipping from China...)


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> Id love to cut a riser out in an hour...
> infact, id love to cut one out in 4 hours.
> Id love to linish one in an hour.


The how long does it take to cut one? There is no way this is a day to cut/2-3 days to finish 1 product. You'd have to start years in advance for a world wide release just to hit 5k pieces. Less goes into it than a golf club (metal woods), and outside of RnD, they can have like 100's of thousands in a very short period of time (including shipping from China...).


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Get a bigger mill, LoL, - its all about horsepower. Volumetric material removal rates is just a function of the applied horsepower in the cut.


Yes if you want a riser that feels and looks like it was designed and made on an etcha-sketch.

2d and 2.5d milling and i might agree with you....

What kind of horse power do you think it would take to cut out a gmx riser? For example in an hour,


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Remember. You also have dealer discounts to give. 

And every shape change requires new fixtures to be made. And for mass production. There will probably be 10 mills. All require attendance. Its not just about materials. You have employment. Building overheads. Bank charges. Delivery fees.


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> Remember. You also have dealer discounts to give.
> 
> And every shape change requires new fixtures to be made. And for mass production. There will probably be 10 mills. All require attendance. Its not just about materials. You have employment. Building overheads. Bank charges. Delivery fees.



Building overhead should be minimal as you sell to retailers, so head office and warehouse in 1 place. Not every shape change needs new fixtures. Bank fees... Come on... Delivery fees are also next to nothing with accounts and a major carrier in the grand scheme of things and shipping is even cheaper in the US than here and you can get great rates here with corp accounts. Discounts aren't actually costing you money, but potential revenue. Even sold at a discount to 'cost', it's still well below manufactured costs.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

If it's _so__ easy_ and the cost is_ so low_, please get into the business because I would love nothing more than being able to buy a riser of the same performance as the $800 risers for $300 or less.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Gwelfgulfer said:


> Building overhead should be minimal as you sell to retailers, so head office and warehouse in 1 place. Not every shape change needs new fixtures. Bank fees... Come on... Delivery fees are also next to nothing with accounts and a major carrier in the grand scheme of things and shipping is even cheaper in the US than here and you can get great rates here with corp accounts. Discounts aren't actually costing you money, but potential revenue. Even sold at a discount to 'cost', it's still well below manufactured costs.


i wasnt talking about getting it to the customer as delivery fees.
Im talkign about getting the metal to the manufacturer. getting the tooling to the manufacturer, then getting the screws, inserts, hex keys, Bags/sleaves, boxes, all to the manufacturer, then shipping the part to the anodizers. plus the labour of packing/unpacking/organising all this as in delivery costs.
then you have assembly of the product, inserting the steel inserts, attaching the grip, fitting the dovetail assebly, fitting the limb bolts etc.

Having just been though the whole process of designing a riser, programming a riser, Milling a riser. and producing a first batch of risers. Id love it to be as simple as you guys make out... 



you cant just add Horsepower to get a good finish, with a 6mm (1/4") cutter
you cant ask $800 for a 2.5D riser IMO.

You cant just use a bigger cutter without the material flexing and tollerances all falling appart IMO.


but that is just MY opinion on it.


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Rylando said:


> If it's _so__ easy_ and the cost is_ so low_, please get into the business because I would love nothing more than being able to buy a riser of the same performance as the $800 risers for $300 or less.


Typical answer for someone who doesn't want to think critically about things. Almost sheep like behavior.


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> i wasnt talking about getting it to the customer as delivery fees.
> Im talkign about getting the metal to the manufacturer. getting the tooling to the manufacturer, then getting the screws, inserts, hex keys, Bags/sleaves, boxes, all to the manufacturer, then shipping the part to the anodizers. plus the labour of packing/unpacking/organising all this as in delivery costs.
> then you have assembly of the product, inserting the steel inserts, attaching the grip, fitting the dovetail assebly, fitting the limb bolts etc.
> 
> ...


Understood, but is this now coming from the standpoint of a smaller business of one of the bigger names? Having been in the golf business and retail side of it, sorry if I'm a bit skeptical on price of goods vs. reality of costs. Especially given the economies of scale to that level.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Gwelfgulfer said:


> Typical answer for someone who doesn't want to think critically about things. Almost sheep like behavior.


he has a point though... if there is soo much profit in it, how come there are not more makers out there... almost critical thinking pointing back in the direction your looking from...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Gwelfgulfer said:


> Understood, but is this now coming from the standpoint of a smaller business of one of the bigger names? Having been in the golf business and retail side of it, sorry if I'm a bit skeptical on price of goods vs. reality of costs. Especially given the economies of scale to that level.


im not running an economy of scale. and im just under $800, and im not made in a land of cheap labour, and i have just bought a faster more powerfull mill to help get to that price.


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> he has a point though... if there is soo much profit in it, how come there are not more makers out there... almost critical thinking pointing back in the direction your looking from...



Its because people have other interests. Coming from a sport that has been in decline for 10ish years, to a sport that would love to generate the revenue golf does, you can't expect to have more people want to make start ups when you already have so few people in it (generally speaking in total numbers). Its not a matter of profits, its about interest. Not many people start up businesses that they have no interest in, but many do just to enjoy themselves. Greed makes the world go round tho, not love/hate.

The world doesn't need another milled putter company, but each year you see a few more pop up to charge $500 for a 'custom' putter that in reality is no different then most others (tho I will say what is being made at Xenon is pretty dam nice and unique). Most all use the same basic shape that has been around for decades in the Ping Anser model. Nothing new, same steel (depending on what you pick).


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## UtahIdahoHunter (Mar 27, 2008)

Like I said before. I'm just happy companies are making Barebow risers and supporting a small group of the archery world. :smile: 
Can I afford to buy an $800 riser? Yes. Would I rather wait a couple of years and buy one second hand for $400? Yes. To me it makes more sense and who am I so say what someone can or can't charge.


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## Gwelfgulfer (Jul 1, 2016)

UtahIdahoHunter said:


> Like I said before. I'm just happy companies are making Barebow risers and supporting a small group of the archery world. :smile:
> Can I afford to buy an $800 riser? Yes. Would I rather wait a couple of years and buy one second hand for $400? Yes. To me it makes more sense and *who am I so say what someone can or can't charge.*


There would be no point to the interweb if we couldn't all tell people who/what/where/why and how to do things... :zip:

Also depends in the OEM's care about what is being said about them on online forums. I'm sure they have a lurking presence other then possibly sponsorship. Golf has it on wrx where if there is issues and you ranted about it and weren't taken care of through regular CS means, they cared enough about their image to make it right.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I can understand someone with a good paying job and a passion for the sport spending $800 on a riser. What I CAN'T understand is that same person turning around and selling it two years later. But we see it all the time.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

That way, they can buy the new, shinny $1,000 riser.
I mean, it HAS to be 20% better, right?

Guys -

Look, we've all wasted money on things we thought were "important" or "had to have". Doing it because you want to is one thing, doing it because some company (or YOU) made you believe you need it, is something else. 

I may have said this before. Take two identical widgets, package one in a plain brown paper wrapper, and the other is see-through box, emblazoned with words, like "the best", new and improved", and "greater this or that". Charge $400 for the former and $800 for that latter - which do you think most people are going to buy? Even those people who "know" the products are identical. 

Viper1 out.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Borderbows said:


> i wasnt talking about getting it to the customer as delivery fees.
> Im talkign about getting the metal to the manufacturer. getting the tooling to the manufacturer, then getting the screws, inserts, hex keys, Bags/sleaves, boxes, all to the manufacturer, then shipping the part to the anodizers. plus the labour of packing/unpacking/organising all this as in delivery costs.
> then you have assembly of the product, inserting the steel inserts, attaching the grip, fitting the dovetail assebly, fitting the limb bolts etc.
> 
> ...


Your cutting those risers with a 6mm cutter? wow, that is going to be slow. 

FWIW, I like the looks of your riser, and its on my list for my next riser. Debating between WFX25 and your riser.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Your cutting those risers with a 6mm cutter? wow, that is going to be slow.
> 
> FWIW, I like the looks of your riser, and its on my list for my next riser. Debating between WFX25 and your riser.


We rough it with a 40mm. Then a 16mm then detail with 8mm. Then scan the complex surfaces with a 6mm. Using a 2mm to clean out complex areas... yes flat surfaces and surfaces at 90 degs to each other are childs play for a mill. But complex surfaces are not so easy.
There are 670 thousand lines of code for one half of the riser. Or 21MB of text file for the one side.

Rapid rates of material removal simply means warped parts unless you unclamp and reclamp alot of times to destress the materials.
Or add lots of adjustment options.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

SID! You've been missing for awhile! Been busy? I was thinking about you when this thread came up and Voila! Here you are!

I prefer your limbs design more than your riser. My fav riser will still cost me $800. Sucks when folks lay waste to the idea of improvement and innovation because they can't benefit from both.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

You cant get these shapes with big flat slices....


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

theminoritydude said:


> SID! You've been missing for awhile! Been busy? I was thinking about you when this thread came up and Voila! Here you are!
> 
> I prefer your limbs design more than your riser. My fav riser will still cost me $800. Sucks when folks lay waste to the idea of improvement and innovation because they can't benefit from both.


Cant win them all :-D 
That is the beauty of ILF...


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> I can understand someone with a good paying job and a passion for the sport spending $800 on a riser. What I CAN'T understand is that same person turning around and selling it two years later. But we see it all the time.


$800 is not much even for someone with a moderate paying job if this is their passion. after all, they will be selling last year's passion on to someone else seeking a recycled romance shortly afterwards.

as always, one owner and well loved is a good place to be, in both riser and motor vehicles.

I don't think there is much left in innovation in recurve risers, it's a matter of incremental and judgemental finesse at serious cost. if you stuck a back bushing in a GMX it would be pack up and go home time. nothing much left to achieve, and it would cost $1000 to scratch the surface.

limbs, yes. sights, yes (someone make a decent stiff carbon sight that doesn't cost an appendage and a small child). rests and plungers, sure. if it moves, there's optimisation possible (and the super rest is a horrible thing, being cheap doesn't change that). tabs, yes. stabilisers, big yes (but not at Doinker Hero prices).


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

There is a huge difference in to be able to run your own mills and do bits in bulk quantity than just do a run somewhere.

Afaik Italy is a bit different, I'm sure Vittorio could tell in more detail, but basically what I've been told is that bow makers tail on racing bicycle business where there are plenty of small manufacturers which make small runs for very specific parts, and that industry is very well refined and can do it very cost-efficiently.

My home town where I grew up is a center of aluminium manufacturing (pretty much a company town for Ruukki Metals company plus subcontractors), mostly ladders, roof parts etc., but also some tool manufacturing and anything finer up to small parts in nuclear power plants. I got talking to some CAD designers some years back and pretty much the story went that they could easily make a good, but fairly basic riser (forget rounded edges and most 3D detail) pretty cheap even in small runs, but if you want finesse, you need to think at least 2-3x the cost.

Where we get back to my initial point. A Best Zenit, even if a bit bulky will still shoot just as well as any of the more modern designs, but it might look and feel dated. Now, some (like I) like that bulky look and feel, and that market is pretty limited these days.


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## lscotti (Jun 16, 2015)

zal said:


> A Best Zenit, even if a bit bulky will still shoot just as well as any of the more modern designs, but it might look and feel dated.


100% agree


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## Mark Talley (Aug 10, 2016)

Actually one of the problems with becoming a machinist these days is that they've become machine attendants. Machines and the programs which drive them have become so sophisticated they can run 24/7 in the dark (no people present) pumping out widgets as long as the materials continue flowing. The problem with high end bows risers is the market is limited so all of the costs associated with producing a riser has to be spread over comparatively few units.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

My main business, fo those that don't know, has been consumer electronics since ever; I am ( ...I was..) an electronic engineer that got to study Marketing in Motorola and General Electric in another century, then switched to purchasing marketing (a much less known branch of marketing) and worked in a large company of the Fiat group as purchasing manager for special products ranging from custom integrated circuits to special batteries for military use, down to the simplest mechanical parts and team leader in a value analisys/make or buy decision group . Since '94 and still now, I'm running my own operation as marketing consultant and outsourcing service for consumer electronic products. Archery is my hobby since 43 years, archey products are a side business born in 2014 initially as simple experiment, even if now are taking much and much more of my time. 
So said, let me make an example from consumer electronics:

- Why to pay 800$ for I-phone 6 or a Samsung S7 when you can get an Huawey P8 for 300$ or a similar No Brand model from China for 150$?

The real technical differencies among the products do not justify such a big spread in price range, of course...
The answer is very simple: Brand recognition does it. 
A bit more of featurs and a design gimnicks added to a great brand name can mark up a lot on the retail price. 

I'm and Huawey P8 user making Gillo risers for other Huawey P8 owners, perfectly knowing that majority of Iphone 6 and Samsung S7 users will only buy 800$ risers for the same reasons they have bought their phones. 

P.S.
Can I make a more sophisticated mechanical design for my risers and offer them at 800$ retail? Very easy, I can for sure.
Can I sell 1000 pcs /year minimum of an 800$ riser to make some profit from it ? Inpossible for my young Brand name.
So, I make P8's, not S7's .......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I'm and Huawey P8 user making Gillo risers for other Huawey P8 owners, perfectly knowing that majority of Iphone 6 and Samsung S7 users will only buy 800$ risers for the same reasons they have bought their phones.





> So, I make P8's, not S7's .......


And this is why so many of us "P8" users appreciate you and what you are doing, when we all know you could be making S7's


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## Mark Talley (Aug 10, 2016)

Seems quality control hiccoughs could be a limiting factor in breaking into the ranks of the exulted.


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