# Is this CHEATING in 3D?



## sawtoothscream

if binos are legal in 3d i wouldnt call it cheating.


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## Cira

The only thing illegal with the crew I shoot 3d with is if you leave the beer (aiming fluid) cooler at the previous station. Everything else that you wouldn't do while hunting just gets you made fun of.


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## dbalfa

if they are not against the rules, everybody could have some, then what makes that different from adjustable sights or releases?

..outsider looking in....I don't shoot 3D....


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## HCA Iron Mace

Don't give away all of your secrets.


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## Beastmaster

Caveman said:


> I was reading a thread asking why 3D participation is dropping off and a lot of the people that responded mentioned shooters cheating as a reason they quit 3D.
> Do you consider the following scenario cheating? And would your answer depend on whether it was done in a large tournament or a small local archery club?
> 
> An archer competing in a 3D shoot walks up to the first shooting stake and using a set of high quality binoculars glasses the target to determine an aiming point for the 11 ring. The archer adjusts the binoculars to have the sharpest image possible and after judging the yardage at 40 yards executes the shot perfectly and scores an 11.
> 
> The archer proceeds to the next station and at first glance thinks the target is a little closer than the last shot, maybe 37 – 38 yards. The archer then glasses the target but notices’ adjusting the knob slightly counterclockwise is required to achieve the same sharp image as the previous target. Almost subconsciously from years of experience the archer knows if the binoculars have to be adjusted in this manner from the last shot that was 40 yards, then the target has to be a little farther, not closer and rethinks and adjusts the judged yardage thus making a better shot and achieves a high score. If binoculars were not used and the shot was made on the first judgment, the score would have been less.
> 
> Well, do you consider this scenario cheating?
> Is your answer influenced by the size of the shoot or the organization hosting it?
> Is this a good reason to make binoculars illegal at 3D shoots?


Okay, so there's other factors involved too.

Does the person shooting use a speed bow? 

Does the person have marks on his binocular's focusing ring?

I'm sure there are others. Frankly, this is one of the reasons why I shoot a fast bow, I shoot Open Class, and use a monocular with only a diopter adjustment ring. You can't say that I'm ever cheating.

And, no I'd say that it wasn't cheating. If the guy knows how the binoculars work, and he's good at judging distances based on the focusing ring, so be it.

-Steve


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## Grey Eagle

Working within the rules is totally acceptable.

Go beyond the bino game, how many shooters think to look at the shorter yardage stakes (the trad/junior/kids stakes), knowing their max distances to determine the stake they are shooting at.

Play within the rules.


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## tdawg21

Only way I would call that cheating is if the shooter actually had some type of marks on the focus knob to tell him what distance he's focused at. If not, and he's just good enough to tell how far a target is when it's in focus, he's good to go as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure if there's an actual rule pertaining to this or not. Could be the reason there's magnification restrictions on binos in some of the more "official" shoots. OK by me though.

Dawg


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## Infinitey

I dont think that that is cheating at all.
Heres Why:
In most tournaments now, there is a magnification limit, I beleive that it is like 8x12 I think? 
Binoculars that use this method tend to be much longer and bigger, with this new magnification restricition It is much harder to achieve this method because the approrpiate binoculars are shorter and its focus covers a wider range ( 10 yards for example) making it inaccurate
What about tourneys without the restriction? Well I have seen or heard of many other ways to judge yardage that are far more accurate then this, and I believe that just by practicing judging yardage you can become much more accurate without this method, so in a way by using this method your only making more work for yourself and putting yourself at a disadvantage when it comes time for a real tournament.
This is a terrible reason to make binoculars illegal because it puts the poorly eyed people at a major disadvantage.


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## NS17IL

I don't belive that it would matter if it was a small shoot, or a large shoot. If you think that this is cheating it has to be cheating for both large and small events. Now about the binoculars, everyone is aloud to have binoculars and how you use them is up to you. I do think that it would be a lot more intresting if you couldn't use them and also much more skill. In real life most likely you are not going to use your binoculars in this way, because you only have one shot, but I have gotten two shots off at the same deer. Needless to say I didn't use my binoculars for the second shot, I already knew were it was going. So in short if its "legal" use them, if they banned them it would be more fun.


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## hjort jagare

No that's not cheating that's using your knowledge . On the other hand some people make marks on the tuning knob that corresponds to certain yardages that most certainly is cheating. On making them illegal that would penalize archers with less than perfect Eye sight cant hit it if you don't know were it is.:darkbeer:


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## razredge

It isnt cheating to me, but me and my buddy that 3d arent really into the competion of 3d. We go to have some laughs n get out of the house. Ill shoot some shots twice(marking first arrow score) just to see if i can get what i did wrong on the first shot right. Nobodys accussed me of cheating yet (scores to low) and if the did i would just tell them to trow my card out.


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## TheMich.Archer

Within The Rules... Absolutely Legal.. 

I got MY ass Handed to me once By a pro because this very same Thing 

I Was mad as hell till I figured Out he was playing by the rules and it wasnt his fault I Didnt do this myself.. I never used Bino's at 3d tourneys .. Never gave this a thought till it bit my ass. 


My fault not his .. Dont blame the fox for stealing your chickens when your the one that left the Henhouse door open... 


I think thats how it was explained to me when I was ranting ...


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## chuckatuk

sounds smart to me. he took the time and payed attention to be able to understand he has a LEGAL tool in his hand and to use it to his advantage.


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## kjwhfsd

razredge said:


> It isnt cheating to me, but me and my buddy that 3d arent really into the competion of 3d. We go to have some laughs n get out of the house. Ill shoot some shots twice(marking first arrow score) just to see if i can get what i did wrong on the first shot right. Nobodys accussed me of cheating yet (scores to low) and if the did i would just tell them to trow my card out.


Then be nice to the club and give them some extra money for the target wear.

That is why there is a 8 1/2 power rule. If he is using them then they wont have a narrow enough focus point to do that. If the rule is 8 power and he os shooting 12 power then he is cheating other wise no.


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## bhtr3d

I would like to know where you got that 3d is dropping off????? ASA had growing numbers at every event. State and National level....


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## MOBOW#1

There is an 8 power rule:mg: I am in trouble


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## Sgt D

*the rules are the rules but............*

..........i wouldn't ever use glasses or lenses on my sights. for me, it takes all the fun out of it. but i don't shoot competitively either. the second shoot i've shot in 8 1/2 years (with a new bow i bought that week) i shot a 344/400. not too bad for me.

maybe if they had another class labled "no glass"


although, some people need to have those little plastic trophy's on the wall to make themselves feel good.

Just my opinion ladies


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## TheMich.Archer

344 out of 400 .. You dont need to make any excuses.. Thats pretty good shooting.. And with a new Bow..I used to feel like you about not using Bino's till I got my backside slapped by the fox.. 

That actually was it for me as far as shooting tourneys.. I felt if i had to go thru all that there was no fun it it for me anymore so I just decided to do the weekend warrior 3d shoots just for fun ... 

I got a ton of those plastic trophies you mention and to me sticking a broadhead in the deer of my choice is what drives my 3d shoots now...


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## Caligater

If it's within the rules, than it's not cheating, thats shooting smartly.


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## 2005Ultramag

MOBOW#1 said:


> There is an 8 power rule:mg: I am in trouble


Yup. I've got a pair of Bushnell 7-15X zoom binoculars that I don't take to 3-D shoots, but I live with them at field shoots.


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## Bees

Caveman said:


> I was reading a thread asking why 3D participation is dropping off and a lot of the people that responded mentioned shooters cheating as a reason they quit 3D.
> Do you consider the following scenario cheating? And would your answer depend on whether it was done in a large tournament or a small local archery club?
> 
> An archer competing in a 3D shoot walks up to the first shooting stake and using a set of high quality binoculars glasses the target to determine an aiming point for the 11 ring. The archer adjusts the binoculars to have the sharpest image possible and after judging the yardage at 40 yards executes the shot perfectly and scores an 11.
> 
> The archer proceeds to the next station and at first glance thinks the target is a little closer than the last shot, maybe 37 – 38 yards. The archer then glasses the target but notices’ adjusting the knob slightly counterclockwise is required to achieve the same sharp image as the previous target. Almost subconsciously from years of experience the archer knows if the binoculars have to be adjusted in this manner from the last shot that was 40 yards, then the target has to be a little farther, not closer and rethinks and adjusts the judged yardage thus making a better shot and achieves a high score. If binoculars were not used and the shot was made on the first judgment, the score would have been less.
> 
> Well, do you consider this scenario cheating?
> Is your answer influenced by the size of the shoot or the organization hosting it?
> Is this a good reason to make binoculars illegal at 3D shoots?


Your ASA 3D rules:



> O. Binoculars are allowed, but may be checked at random by a tournament official or if requested by another competitor.
> If the official deems any markings as inappropriate, the glasses will be confiscated and presented to the Competition
> Committee under the Shooting Rule on range finding. In addition, any binoculars that are pre-marked by the factory,
> but are being used by the shooter as a mechanical device for range finding will be confiscated and presented for
> review to the Competition Committee.





> S. Range finding is prohibited. All distances will be judged by the naked eye. No equipment, including but not limited
> to sights, binoculars, or spotting scopes will be used in a manner inconsistent with this prohibition. Using any part of
> the shooter’s body is prohibited, which includes “gapping techniques” that may also use equipment, or the “stepping
> off” of the distance to, or from, any target. Shooters may carry “target cards” reflecting a picture or rendering of the
> specific targets being shot, but no marks or notations of any type may be made on these cards. In addition, the
> prohibition on marks or notations includes carrying, or making, any additional notes about yardages or features of any
> target on a competition range. Penalty: Any offense upheld by the Competition Committee will result in disqualification
> of the shooter from the event, (with no refund of entry fees paid) and a minimum suspension for the remainder of the
> season. The shooter will be required to submit a request for reinstatement that must be reviewed and approved by
> the Competition Committee before the shooter will be permitted to compete in an ASA sanctioned event.





> T. Exchanging target information with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is strictly
> prohibited. This prohibition also includes the taking of notes on target distances which is prohibited under Rule “S” on range finding. Violations will be referred to the Competition Committee. The first offense will result in disqualification
> of the shooter from the event. A second offense will result in a suspension for the remainder of the tournament
> season with no refund of any entry fees paid.


In your Scenario since he glassed the second target and then decided based on the mechanical setting of the binoculars to change his estimate on the range. Your Shooter may be in violation of Rule O and Rule S since he used more than his naked eye to determine the range.


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## Caveman

*At*



bhtr3d said:


> I would like to know where you got that 3d is dropping off????? ASA had growing numbers at every event. State and National level....


I was reading a thread on AT. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=987326

At our club I haven't seen a drop off.


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## PSE Kid

i dont think so, but it is a great idea if u want to win. u could havve little marks descrining what the distance is when it focusses perfectly. u would know the distance everytime. that is great!


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## t8ter

Not cheaten untill they says they are doing it on a target then it is.


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## vegas steve

if he has no marks on his focasing ring on his bino's then it's legal,but if there are lines or numbers drawn on the ring then thats a no no. a shooter that does this if caught should be more worried about fellow competitors finding out than the officials.sneakyness of this manner will get a shooter a free trip to the dentist at my club


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## Perfectionist

Bees said:


> In your Scenario since he glassed the second target and then decided based on the mechanical setting of the binoculars to change his estimate on the range. Your Shooter may be in violation of Rule O and Rule S since he used more than his naked eye to determine the range.


And I believe IBO rules state something similar. Here's a snippet from the 2009 IBO Rules.


> *C. Binoculars And Rangefinders*
> 
> An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to judge yardage without the assistance of range finding devices or assistance from others. Therefore, cameras, rangefinders, or any other devices that may be used to calculate yardage to the target are prohibited. An archer may not use parts of his or her body, the bow, or any other accessories or equipment to calculate yardage. Any mark on otherwise legal binoculars that could be construed as a reference point for range finding is prohibited.
> Hand-held binoculars of 8.5 or less magnification (per manufacturer’s specifications) are allowed.
> Binoculars shall not be used at the stake after the shot has been taken. An archer with an adjustable sight may not re-adjust his or her sight after using binoculars at the shooting stake. Archers may utilize binoculars additionally to view the target while waiting their turn at the shooting stake or from an on-deck area behind a group that is in the process of shooting a target.


Note the second sentence in section 3.


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## Brown Hornet

Perfectionist said:


> And I believe IBO rules state something similar. Here's a snippet from the 2009 IBO Rules.
> 
> Note the second sentence in section 3.


You beat me to it buddy.....

Your supposed to set your sight prior to glassing the target....The ASA rules are the same. So TECHNICALLY....:zip:


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## dragman

Thanks for the idea!!!! Can't wait to try it out.


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## Caveman

*Loop hole?*



Perfectionist said:


> And I believe IBO rules state something similar. Here's a snippet from the 2009 IBO Rules.
> 
> Note the second sentence in section 3.


"Archers may utilize binoculars additionally to view the target while waiting their turn at the shooting stake or from an on-deck area behind a group that is in the process of shooting a target."

So basically, do your glassing before you set your sight?

Maybe competitors placing in tournaments must pass a lie detector test before declared as winners?


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## Caveman

*Another Consideration*

Another thought, once you know this method exists, how do you stop yourself... Even if you’re not consciously trying to use this method, if your initial look at the target is a mile off and once you glass it, discover you grossly misjudged the yardage because of the amount of the adjustment that is required to bring the target into focus, how many archers could continue and take a shot that might be completely off the target.

The same scenario could exist with fixed pins. How many times have you pulled back on a target and think, wow….. that target is not filling enough of my pin guard to be that yardage and make an adjustment without letting down. This can happen even when you’re not trying to use pin gaps to judge yardage. According to ASA and IBO rules, you just cheated.

By the way, I don’t really care either way; I don’t shoot ASA or IBO, only local area club shoots. But, don’t get me wrong, my shooting buddies and I are very competitive with each other, in a fun way, and don’t cut each other any slack. The scores we turn in are the scores we shot and we wouldn’t have it any other way. If we have an arrow that you have to get down and heehaw about whether it’s in or out, end of discussion, it’s out!

I’m just throwing this out for discussion because I was on the receiving end of this technique with a shooting buddy. I normally always edge him out and we were shooting a shoot where he was dead on with almost all of his yardages to the point I started accusing him of having his range finder with him and ranging the targets when my back was turned. Half way through he confessed. I couldn’t believe he would do that to an old shooting buddy that took him under his wing and shared all of his knowledge and tuned all of his bows.  :darkbeer:


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## Perfectionist

Caveman said:


> "Archers may utilize binoculars additionally to view the target while waiting their turn at the shooting stake or from an on-deck area behind a group that is in the process of shooting a target."
> 
> So basically, do your glassing before you set your sight?
> 
> Maybe competitors placing in tournaments must pass a lie detector test before declared as winners?


At the IBO worlds, the winner in each group gets their arrows weighed or speed checked. But it is up to the competitors in each group to insure that the guy that beats you is not cheating. Personally, if I see someone in my group cheating, I will say something. I hate losing to cheaters. And at my club, I have no problem disqualifying someone if there is any question about cheating.


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## BigBore56

I walk up to the shooting stake, then judge my yardage (without binoculars). I then touch the stake, load an arrow, and then...and only then glass the target to see the score area. I clip on my release, then execute the shot. This is NOT rocket science. My arrow usually ends up in the 10 ring, and the 12 is a bonus if it breaks the line.

You have to consider this...if you marked the yardage on each stake...a lot of shooters still could not hit the 10 ring! I have seen this in 3 Man Scrambles...where you all discuss yardage..and the first shooter puts an arrow in the 12. Doesn't mean the other 2 can follow suite.

Do what you need to do to judge the yardage, but most of the BEST 3D shooters I know don't use their binoculars to judge yardage. For one think, you need both eyes for your depth of field...distance judgement...and binoculars don't do anything positive for this. 

I shot the same scores 15 years ago..in NFAA..when binoculars were NOT allowed in the game.


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## Caveman

*I hear Ya!*



BigBore56 said:


> I walk up to the shooting stake, then judge my yardage (without binoculars). I then touch the stake, load an arrow, and then...and only then glass the target to see the score area. I clip on my release, then execute the shot. This is NOT rocket science. My arrow usually ends up in the 10 ring, and the 12 is a bonus if it breaks the line.


You just described my shot sequence!

The problem is, since my shooting buddy bent me over like he did, I can't get it out of my head. Maybe I should see a hypnotist.


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## mdewitt71

If people feel so "wronged" about cheaters they should just move to Known Distance then. 
I am not a 3D guy but, I wouldn't get hung up over people trying to get over, it is a "sport", a past-time, and a nice way for me to enjoy my time off.

I aint gonna get worked up over "rules" which I could cause I shoot FOBs and 2" blazers which are against he rules aint they.


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## El Boone

Id be less worried about binocs being used and more worried about sneaking rangefinders into shoots where their not allowed, and flat out fudging scores. Ive seen both. :angry:


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## Rorschach

I call it creative! But if I was in charge and this happened regularly and I thought it deciding the outcome of the game, then i would ban Binos.


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## LiteSpeed1

So if the binos are found to be marked in such a way to allow the user ways to determine yardage and they can be confiscated, what about the "old style" type 35mm cameras. I'm no photographer so bear with me. I'm talking about the cameras that had the huge dial type lens. Seems like that would be a perfect rangefinder. You could pretend like you're taking pictures of all the targets, when in reality you're just focusing and reading the dial.


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## troutfly

*I would say....*

Anything you use to aid you in judging distance, besides your natural ability to gauge that distance with only your eyesight, is a form of cheating. Using binoculars is not the cheating part, it is using the focus to judge the blurriness of those optics. If they are clear, you are being told that it is close to the distance they were set at. If they are blurry, you know they are off whether to close or to far. The point is, the binoculars helped you. I need to use binoculars because I like to see the vitals as best as possible. But I am constantly changing the focus to see my target. If it was up to me, no one would be allowed to use binoculars and we would all be shooting where we "think" we should be aiming.


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## BigBore56

El Boone said:


> Id be less worried about binocs being used and more worried about sneaking rangefinders into shoots where their not allowed, and flat out fudging scores. Ive seen both. :angry:


You are 100% right...not much you can do about people that "adjust" thier scores as they go, except put them in different groups at each shoot. Most yop shooters shoot about the same score (400 +) at all the shoots. so the guy that does great at one and not so good at another...would make me question his scoring. We don't shoot for much money or trophys...so it is mainly an "integrety" thing and bragging rights around here.


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## stixshooter

mdewitt71 said:


> If people feel so "wronged" about cheaters they should just move to Known Distance then.
> I am not a 3D guy but, I wouldn't get hung up over people trying to get over, it is a "sport", a past-time, and a nice way for me to enjoy my time off.
> 
> I aint gonna get worked up over "rules" which I could cause I shoot FOBs and 2" blazers which are against he rules aint they.


Yep .. Obviously I just shoot them for fun .. I don't care what the others do.. I like Redding because of the marked yardage I think it's more fun and just as challenging in it's own way ... I only try to beat my last years score nothing else matters cept having fun to me but this is from a guy that will never be in even the top 50 at Redding

The local shoots we all use rangefinders in my group ..Helps you learn more IMO ..also saves on the ACC's we don't turn in our cards anyway .. Who cares IMO


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## NM_HighPlains

mdewitt71 said:


> I am not a 3D guy but, I wouldn't get hung up over people trying to get over, it is a "sport", a past-time, and a nice way for me to enjoy my time off.


Agree. I guess you have to decide if you're out there to play the game or practice your shooting. 

If you're playing the game, then use every legal trick and lick you can including knowing how far your shadow casts at certain times of the day, holding the stupid umbrella up to block wind, and shooting at other people's nocks after you've determined they're in the appropriate ring. That's all legal, so go for it.

But, if you're there to practice your shooting, then you set your own rules. Sometimes I use binos and sometimes I don't cause in hunting situations sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. Sometimes I hold for a long time, sometimes I don't. 

For me, it's about practicing my archery skills, getting out, having fun, not playing the game.


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## loadtoad

The Bino trick is one I have seen used many times, big shoots and small shoots. Have the rules been broken at an IBO shoot, sounds like it!

Make it fair for everyone, marked yardage, and no binos, only target cards to get ring location on the targets.
Other than that cheaters will always find some way...point shaving/speed/binos/sneeking on the course night before/ man the list can go on, and on.

Bigbore56,

I would have to disagree with you. If I know the yardage my arrow 9 out of 10 times will go were aimed, and I am only a slightly above average archer. Most of all the guys I shoot with drill their arrows out to 60 and 70 yards. Even my braodheads hit too close to aim at the same spot out to 50yds. Yardage is the key in most all shoots, that is why we have restrictions on speed, binos, rangefinders. All aide in overcoming poor estimation on our part.

Just my Opinion.

The Toad


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## C.Callison

bhtr3d said:


> I would like to know where you got that 3d is dropping off????? ASA had growing numbers at every event. State and National level....


I stopped shooting IBO and went to 2 ASA shoots this year. I don't care if I ever go to and IBO shoot again. I think the only place where shooter numbers are droping is the IBO. I would say cheating has something to do with people not wanting to shoot IBO, but I personaly dont want to shoot IBO because of the managment.


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## Caveman

*Innocent until proven guilty*



Perfectionist said:


> At the IBO worlds, the winner in each group gets their arrows weighed or speed checked. But it is up to the competitors in each group to insure that the guy that beats you is not cheating. Personally, if I see someone in my group cheating, I will say something. I hate losing to cheaters. And at my club, I have no problem disqualifying someone if there is any question about cheating.


It’s also not fun being falsely accused of cheating.

Six or seven years back me and two other friends got heavy into 3D. We only ran the local club circuit within a 60 mile or so radius and we practiced constantly. We got very good at judging yardage, plus we were all very good shots. We were very competitive with each other and only really cared about beating each other. We shot 2 – 3 shoots a weekend and normally placed in the top 1-3. I think it was about the 3rd time we shot at this one club that we were walking to the first station and this guy we had never seen before came running from the registration area and asked if he could shoot with us. We didn’t care who shot with us and welcomed him to join us. About half way through the course he made the comment “You guys really do shoot well”. He obviously was sent out with us because the club thought we were cheating. Well they found out different and it didn’t make us feel good that they were questioning our integrity. I haven’t been back to that club since.

I know there are cheaters out there. but I wouldn't accuse someone unless I had positive proof they are cheating.


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## loadtoad

Caveman,

When I was stationed in Alaska, much of the same occured up there. Those who lost on a weekly basis would make coments.."obviousley those guys are cheating" or " why shoot, we won't win". Now I am not saying I won all the time, but I usually shot with those who did, and every now and then I would sneek into the 1st place category.
But you are absolutely right to accuse someone of cheating, simply because one does not or cannot beat another is riduclus!

Cheaters should be removed from the event if infact they have knowingly and/or willingly cheated. 

Good thread!

The Toad!


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## Perfectionist

Caveman said:


> It’s also not fun being falsely accused of cheating.
> 
> Six or seven years back me and two other friends got heavy into 3D. We only ran the local club circuit within a 60 mile or so radius and we practiced constantly. We got very good at judging yardage, plus we were all very good shots. We were very competitive with each other and only really cared about beating each other. We shot 2 – 3 shoots a weekend and normally placed in the top 1-3. I think it was about the 3rd time we shot at this one club that we were walking to the first station and this guy we had never seen before came running from the registration area and asked if he could shoot with us. We didn’t care who shot with us and welcomed him to join us. About half way through the course he made the comment “You guys really do shoot well”. He obviously was sent out with us because the club thought we were cheating. Well they found out different and it didn’t make us feel good that they were questioning our integrity. I haven’t been back to that club since.
> 
> I know there are cheaters out there. but I wouldn't accuse someone unless I had positive proof they are cheating.


Great point. That is why we will bust bust up a group if the same people win too much (but we also make people move back a stake if they win twice so it takes care of itself). We also put the kids who shoot really well with other kids who are shooting well, so that dad doesn't get tempted to push the pencil a little. This gives them some competition, and the kids seem to really enjoy shooting with other kids at their same level.


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## b77wolf

I guess if you need to cheat to win then so be it. I think binos are ok to see the target but not to help with the yardage. Heck some of our targets are so shot up you need binos just to gusee where the rings use to be.


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## Beastmaster

b77wolf said:


> I guess if you need to cheat to win then so be it. I think binos are ok to see the target but not to help with the yardage. Heck some of our targets are so shot up you need binos just to gusee where the rings use to be.


Again - this is why I, my wife, and my son all use monoculars. This way, there's absolutely ZERO possibility of cheating, or getting accused of cheating.

It's also nice - there's a lot less weight to them as well.


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## Arrow_slinger43

if this keeps going on the rules could be changed to permafocus binos only.


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## nelliott

LiteSpeed1 said:


> So if the binos are found to be marked in such a way to allow the user ways to determine yardage and they can be confiscated, what about the "old style" type 35mm cameras. I'm no photographer so bear with me. I'm talking about the cameras that had the huge dial type lens. Seems like that would be a perfect rangefinder. You could pretend like you're taking pictures of all the targets, when in reality you're just focusing and reading the dial.


are you kidding me?


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## a1shooter

*See highlight*



hjort jagare said:


> No that's not cheating that's using your knowledge . On the other hand some people make marks on the tuning knob that corresponds to certain yardages that most certainly is cheating. On making them illegal that would penalize archers with less than perfect Eye sight cant hit it if you don't know were it is.:darkbeer:


The part I highlighted in red above. That is nothing short of taking a set of binos and turning them into a range finder which should be illegal.


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## Archeroni

Most cheating on a local level is non-busted groups and pencil whipping.

My boy and I still shoot but never turn in cards. Sucks to get beat by the pencil when you KNOW you whip the pants off the men/kids beating you when you shoot indoors, and no it is not a result of yardage estimation or knowing the kill zones. Guys that shoot 280's on 5 spot don't go and beat state records in 3D or state record holders. Period.


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## reylamb

If we are talking ASA and ASA rules, local or national does not matter, than yes indeed it is cheating. Unless of course we are talking about the known yardage classes or any class that is shooting known yardage, then by all means, have at it.


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## LiteSpeed1

nelliott said:


> are you kidding me?


Absolutely not! At one time our state made a ruling that shooters could not have the camera. If they wanted pictures, a non-shooter could take them.


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## LiteSpeed1

mdewitt71 said:


> If people feel so "wronged" about cheaters they should just move to Known Distance then.
> I am not a 3D guy but, I wouldn't get hung up over people trying to get over, it is a "sport", a past-time, and a nice way for me to enjoy my time off.
> 
> I aint gonna get worked up over "rules" which I could cause I shoot FOBs and 2" blazers which are against he rules aint they.


mdewitt71---Why "lay down" and give in to the cheaters by moving to known distance markers? This seems to me like it's probably going to benefit the cheaters. I'm like you, I'm not going to get worked up over rules, but I sure won't back down from exposing a cheater. I shoot for fun (and to try and wreck my friend's arrows) and never turn in a scorecard.


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## MHansel

My take on this is, I'm out to have a good time, and get some practice in on different shooting situation's to prepair myself for hunting season. What takes the fun out of it is when you have guys standing there looking with their bino's taking freaking forever to take the shot, and this is usually after he's been standing waiting while is buddy is shooting. I say take out the bino's and everyone carry a set of shooting cards that show's the scoring ring's, and another thing these guys that have been doing it awhile, they know exactly where the scoring rings are.

That's just my take on it:darkbeer:


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## xm15e2m4

They could have two differen't classes. One called "Binocular Users" and the other called.......

"People Who Now How To Estimate Range"


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## Caveman

*I've felt the same way*



hansel said:


> My take on this is, I'm out to have a good time, and get some practice in on different shooting situation's to prepair myself for hunting season. What takes the fun out of it is when you have guys standing there looking with their bino's taking freaking forever to take the shot, and this is usually after he's been standing waiting while is buddy is shooting. I say take out the bino's and everyone carry a set of shooting cards that show's the scoring ring's, and another thing these guys that have been doing it awhile, they know exactly where the scoring rings are.
> 
> That's just my take on it:darkbeer:


I've felt the same way as you, but now I enjoy the challenge of trying to shoot my best score. This is the first year I’ve stepped back to the farthest stake using a power lens, moveable sight, long stabilizer, and v-bars and I’m really enjoying it. I’m not shooting as high scores, but I’m having more fun. I guess everyone’s definition of fun can be different. 


Regarding knowing where the kills are on all the targets, I’ve been doing it a long time, but can’t remember exactly where the 11 rings are and even if I could, all it would take would be a target quartering to or away a little or leaning forward or back to throw me off. I’ve used target cards before and for me it took longer flipping through the cards than glassing the target.


The group I shoot with will always let another group moving faster than us shoot through, which happens a lot because we waste a lot of time joking around and BS’n. Occasionally when we get behind a slow moving group and they don’t offer to let us shoot through, we practice another aspect of hunting, patience.


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## TheMich.Archer

Say What??? Why In the world would Blazer Vanes be illegal??? 


I dont shoot competition anymore But this is something i never heard of ...


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## Big Ragu

*Drawing your bow?*

It is illegal to draw on a target once, aim and let up, and then adjust the yardage again before shooting , the bino thing is cool as long as they are no more then 8.5 power.


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## Hittingguru

This came up this Friday at my range in the Worlds. The range master reminded everyone about the binocular rule before we went to the first target. We asked him if he was referring to the rule that disallows you to use your binoculars at the state AFTER the shot, since you are now using up the next shooters time. He stated yes, and the part that states that once you use your binos at the stake, you cannot adjust your pins. I can see that many times binos help determine how much ground is "missing" between the last point you can see with the naked eye and the base of the target. Can also assist in seeing if a target is infront of or behind a nearby tree that you can range easier than the target itself. 

I haven't been shooting IBO long enough to spot cheaters, or to start casting aspersions on shooters. In my opinion, if IBO is loosing shooters, I think it would be more due to the fact that $$$$ buys the fastest bows which cuts down on skill of judging. It's tough to swallow sometimes when a guy can make a 5 yard judging error at 40 yards, and still hit a 10, when I have to be within 3 or I'm out in the 8's or 5's. Maybe IBO needs to cap the speed like ASA. I'm not saying 280 (288) is right, but it is an even playing field.


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## Caveman

*I think he was being sarcastic*



mdewitt71 said:


> I aint gonna get worked up over "rules" which I could cause I shoot FOBs and 2" blazers which are against he rules aint they.


because of the winking guy at the end.


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## Hittingguru

BigRagu- as I read the rules, you can change the sight, as long as you haven't used your binos at the stake.


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## MHansel

Caveman said:


> I've felt the same way as you, but now I enjoy the challenge of trying to shoot my best score. This is the first year I’ve stepped back to the farthest stake using a power lens, moveable sight, long stabilizer, and v-bars and I’m really enjoying it. I’m not shooting as high scores, but I’m having more fun. I guess everyone’s definition of fun can be different.
> 
> 
> Regarding knowing where the kills are on all the targets, I’ve been doing it a long time, but can’t remember exactly where the 11 rings are and even if I could, all it would take would be a target quartering to or away a little or leaning forward or back to throw me off. I’ve used target cards before and for me it took longer flipping through the cards than glassing the target.
> 
> 
> The group I shoot with will always let another group moving faster than us shoot through, which happens a lot because we waste a lot of time joking around and BS’n. Occasionally when we get behind a slow moving group and they don’t offer to let us shoot through, we practice another aspect of hunting, patience.


I've only had about a hand full of groups let us play through, what I hate is that a 3-D range can get jammed up like a golf course from one group or inconsiderate jerk's, that are glass'n and bs'n, and do't give a crap about anyone one but themselve's:mg:


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## joffutt1

i call it smart.


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## cabohoyt

The second sentence of section 3 only addresses those with adjustable sights. If you shoot fixed pin classes I guess its between you and your conscience. I don't see much of a difference in glassing at the stake vs 1 yard behind while waiting. It doesn't state that you can't adjust after you glass from 1 yard back. Part of an ASA shoot is known yardage, the thing is you still have to execute the shot well. As far as having binos in the rules, it's a must. Besides if you had an early shoot time this week at the IBO worlds you couldn't see through the fog even with the binos.:thumbs_do


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## possum trapper

To the original question.Its cheating without a doubt just like framing its illegal


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## 442fps

Caveman said:


> An archer competing in a 3D shoot walks up to the first shooting stake and using a set of high quality binoculars glasses the target to determine an aiming point for the 11 ring. The archer adjusts the binoculars to have the sharpest image possible and after judging the yardage at 40 yards executes the shot perfectly and scores an 11.
> 
> The archer proceeds to the next station and at first glance thinks the target is a little closer than the last shot, maybe 37 – 38 yards. The archer then glasses the target but notices’ adjusting the knob slightly counterclockwise is required to achieve the same sharp image as the previous target.


I own several high quality glasses , Zeiss and Svarovski , and with all of them i have a crystal clear image between 10 and 60 yards , re-adjusting them isn't necessary , even with a pair of cheaper glasses , Eschenbach which costs half the price of the others , it's the same .

Therefore i would say thet it's not possible with "good" glasses to do a distance estimation , with cheap glasses it's possible , but it's far away from beeing accurate .


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## deerman2009

i carry my binos,and sometimes glass targets to be sure of the scoring rings,but as soon as i put them down i'm back to square one.what about speed bows,speeds 320 plus? anything under 40 yards,one pin,no need to judge up to that distance:mg:


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## MHansel

deerman2009 said:


> i carry my binos,and sometimes glass targets to be sure of the scoring rings,but as soon as i put them down i'm back to square one.what about speed bows,speeds 320 plus? anything under 40 yards,one pin,no need to judge up to that distance:mg:



Ya, what about those speed bow's????

My 60lb DXT is shooting 260fps and I'm sure there are plenty of bow's shooting WAY too fast:mg::mg:

I'd say take bino's out of 3-D shootng for one season, and she how everyone score's, my score will stay the same because I don't carry any bino's on the course:smile:


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## Lonestar63

BigBore56 said:


> *I walk up to the shooting stake, then judge my yardage (without binoculars). I then touch the stake, load an arrow, and then...and only then glass the target to see the score area. I clip on my release, then execute the shot. * This is NOT rocket science. My arrow usually ends up in the 10 ring, and the 12 is a bonus if it breaks the line.
> 
> You have to consider this...if you marked the yardage on each stake...a lot of shooters still could not hit the 10 ring! I have seen this in 3 Man Scrambles...where you all discuss yardage..and the first shooter puts an arrow in the 12. Doesn't mean the other 2 can follow suite.
> 
> Do what you need to do to judge the yardage, but most of the BEST 3D shooters I know don't use their binoculars to judge yardage. For one think, you need both eyes for your depth of field...distance judgement...and binoculars don't do anything positive for this.
> 
> I shot the same scores 15 years ago..in NFAA..when binoculars were NOT allowed in the game.


X2

That's exactly how i do it. I have already guessed my yardage (or at least made a ridiculous attempt to do so) before i even reach for my binos.

If folks worked as hard at judging yardage as they do at "reading binos", or "gapping", ect, ect, they wouldn't need to cheat.


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## maxx532

BAN THE BINNOS. :thumbs_do


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## Justin82

Cira said:


> The only thing illegal with the crew I shoot 3d with is if you leave the beer (aiming fluid) cooler at the previous station. Everything else that you wouldn't do while hunting just gets you made fun of.


now thats my kinda shooting!(at targets of course :darkbeer


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## Big Ragu

*Framing*



Hittingguru said:


> BigRagu- as I read the rules, you can change the sight, as long as you haven't used your binos at the stake.


I was at worlds, and nationals, in 07 and was told that you can not set your yardage, and draw, then let up, and change your yardage, and shoot. once you set your sight and aim once thats it. Framing was the term used I believe. Im not a bright enough guy to know how to cheat that well, so I guess it didn't bother me. The group I was with was not allowing that particular way of shooting, and that being my first big rodeo I obliged.Is it in the rule books? I couldn't tell you but the good folks I shot with in Indiana were of the mind set that it was cheating.
I think I read some where that it wasn't illegal in some classes, Oh heck I dont know for sure. Has any one else had a similar experience?


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## Limey

We are not allowed binoculars for 3D in the UK.

This speeds up shooting time and we don't have any of these issues. Sighted archers are allowed "placement cards" that show the location of the scoring rings. Non sighted archers are not allowed them.

This make life far more simple.

If we ever allow binoculars I hope it is restricted to "auto focus" or "fixed focus" binoculars only to avoid the range finding/cheating issues.


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## Browning w/ HHA

i use binaculars at all shoots they are mostley legal to determain the kill zone
i personally think you should be able to use anything becouse when you go hunting 98% of archerys use a range finder 
dont know about all of yall but in texas we use a scoring systerm call fred bear.
exzample
in the blue gold and red is all 10points
in the white and green is 5points
anywhere besides the kill zone is -5points
if you think it is to hard to hit you can ake a ethical pass and gain 1point
if you miss it is 0points


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## bow-legged

I think it is cheating if you put marks on your binos or adjust your sight after you have glassed. I like using binos and dont think that it is a big enough problem to ban them.


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## mjgonehunting

I don't think it is cheating,I think it's wise use of LEGAL shooting aids!

If it become illegal to use binos,they will need to move almost every kill zone on every 3-d target.
I have yet to see many competition grade targets with truly acurate kill zones.
This is what actually caused me to shoot lower scores when I first started shooting 3-D because I shot the targets in the LOGICAL kill areas,
MANY of the 3-d targets would be liver or even gut shots if you shoot Xs on them!
I started using my binos and my score whent up alot! Now I'm truly a mediocre shooter instead of below average!


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## buckyforever

So according to the rules if I judge a target, set my sight then glass it and realize there is a hole in the target at 12 o'clock that would make a great aiming point I can't adjust my sight to aim at that spot instead of trying to aim for the harder to see rings? Not sure if I like that rule, I walk up to a stake, range the target at least 2 times using different methods, glass it, then double check my yardage again. So according to ASA and IBO rules I would be cheating? 

I can go from one target that is 40 yards to a target in the low 30's and not have to adjust my binos, the best you could really do using this method in my opinion would be to tell if a target was closer or farther than the previous target. 

Also, in the rules it states you cannot discuss the targets with anyone in your group, does this mean before the shot or does it include discussing the target after the arrows are scored and pulled and the group is walking to the next target?


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## tbirdrunner

buckyforever said:


> So according to the rules if I judge a target, set my sight then glass it and realize there is a hole in the target at 12 o'clock that would make a great aiming point I can't adjust my sight to aim at that spot instead of trying to aim for the harder to see rings? Not sure if I like that rule, I walk up to a stake, range the target at least 2 times using different methods, glass it, then double check my yardage again. So according to ASA and IBO rules I would be cheating?
> 
> I can go from one target that is 40 yards to a target in the low 30's and not have to adjust my binos, the best you could really do using this method in my opinion would be to tell if a target was closer or farther than the previous target.
> 
> Also, in the rules it states you cannot discuss the targets with anyone in your group, does this mean before the shot or does it include discussing the target after the arrows are scored and pulled and the group is walking to the next target?


Someone answer his questions because I have the same ones.


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## BigBore56

I use "high end" Leupold 8 x binoculars, and don't have to adjust them between 10 to 40 yards...they are crisp and clear. Putting a mark on the focus knob would do me absolutely no good!

I would vote to eliminate binoculars from all 3D shoots. I shot for 15 years in NFAA, which never allowed optics...and learned to judge distance. The pace of the shoots goes a heck of a lot faster also. Something less to screw with. If you know where the kill zone is, you don't need to stare at the target with your binoculars.


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## george myers

the binoc trick isn't any more illegal than listening to the other shooters shot before you get up on the stake.the time lapse between twang and smack.:wink:


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## mag41vance

Arrow_slinger43 said:


> if this keeps going on the rules could be changed to permafocus binos only.


 If they work well enough that might be an excellent alternative.:thumbs_up altough that would mean another purchase and right now, that would put me in the basement of the dog-house.


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## Caveman

*Here's an idea!*

If shooting with two or more in your group, before anyone glasses the target, the group stands in a circle facing towards the center and everyone rotates the bino adjusting knob of the shooter to their left. This way you will not have the binos in focus from the previous target. We came up with this idea over a few beers after setting targets for this weekend’s 3D shoot. :darkbeer:

Anyone looking for a good shoot this weekend, come on over, you won’t be disappointed! See our website for directions.

Caveman


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## LiteSpeed1

george myers said:


> the binoc trick isn't any more illegal than listening to the other shooters shot before you get up on the stake.*the time lapse between twang and smack*.:wink:


What if there is a speedbow and a longbow shooter in the same group? How do you figure the time lapse? Which twang and smack do you go by?


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## george myers

LiteSpeed1 said:


> What if there is a speedbow and a longbow shooter in the same group? How do you figure the time lapse? Which twang and smack do you go by?


speed bow.i'm not saying that's a good method to use but that's something i try to do to help with distance judging(have maybe 2 numbers to argue with myself about instead of 3 or 4).


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## blazenarrow

This is not anything new. Its a type of framing.. Listen if you are useing your binos for this reason and you know you are. Well then guess what your cheating.. Whats the point.. Either you can shoot or you can't.. I know tons of guys who walk through a marked yardage 3-D and don't shoot a perfect score.. Also this type of framing is not going to make you any better.. A man or women who has there game together will take you out with or without Binos..


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## Big Ragu

*Rules*



Hittingguru said:


> BigRagu- as I read the rules, you can change the sight, as long as you haven't used your binos at the stake.


Even after you draw and aim and let up? If so thanks for the tune up. I guess there is more then one way to frame a target.


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## Perfectionist

Big Ragu said:


> Even after you draw and aim and let up? If so thanks for the tune up. I guess there is more then one way to frame a target.


How do you frame a target with a single pin adjustable sight? Because the rule applies to adjustable sights.


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## Donald Bennett

blazenarrow said:


> This is not anything new. Its a type of framing.. Listen if you are useing your binos for this reason and you know you are. Well then guess what your cheating.. Whats the point.. Either you can shoot or you can't.. I know tons of guys who walk through a marked yardage 3-D and don't shoot a perfect score.. Also this type of framing is not going to make you any better.. A man or women who has there game together will take you out with or without Binos..


Very Very true. You can get the yardage with a five pin set up to by gapping the pin on a 3D target with a little work at it. I know a good BHFS shooter that dose it and he was showing me how to do it. It works great for him he get the yardage really close by gapping a 3D animal target. With my 8 power from 20 to 40 yards there is very little focusing and I have no marks. Thats way the IBO made the 8 power rule. I shoot in the top scores at a 3D tournaments, but I shot two marked 3D's this year and my score were not any better maybe even a little worst.


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## Flint Hills Tex

*Prohibit Binos!*

I find this discussion very interesting. Over here the use of binoculars is really frowned upon, and prohibited at a lot of "fun" shoots. I have poor eyesight, but am not that bad a judging distances. I never use binos, and feel that they should be prohibited at all shoots, period!

I can understand the desire of some to see the inner ring, but if nobody is using binos, then really nobody can see those rings! Nobody has an unfair advantage. Judging distance with only the "naked" eye is the name of the game.

Cheating is either using some mechanical aid or markings on your bow to judge distance, or it involves falsifying score cards, which can be eliminated by having 2 scorekeepers per flight.


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## reylamb

Perfectionist said:


> How do you frame a target with a single pin adjustable sight? Because the rule applies to adjustable sights.


Top of pin to bubble, and frame the body of the target........it can be done, but I am not sure how effectively. This is the precise reason that the ASA rule states that once you draw your bow you can not change the site.


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## hitek

As in all sports someone is alway playing in the gray area of the rules. They should get away from bino's in all shoots.


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## Charlie1586

As long as there are no marks on the focusing rings there is nothing wrong with it, I prefer to just be able to judge my yardage, but if that helps someone i'm shooting against so be it, may the best archer win!


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## nsbc07

Beastmaster said:


> Again - this is why I, my wife, and my son all use monoculars. This way, there's absolutely ZERO possibility of cheating, or getting accused of cheating.
> 
> It's also nice - there's a lot less weight to them as well.


I don't know how you can cheat with binoculars. The bottom line is still your archery skill that matters


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## buckeye_girl

I am very competitive and love to shoot 3D. I have started to look at 3D as a tool to get ready for hunting. So I guess if that is what he is doing then I don't see a big problem with it because of the rules. It sucks yeah but if he's practicing for hunting season he could be refining his technique. Maybe? I dunno.


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## Perfectionist

reylamb said:


> Top of pin to bubble, and frame the body of the target........it can be done, but I am not sure how effectively. This is the precise reason that the ASA rule states that once you draw your bow you can not change the site.


Yeah, I can't see how that would be done effectively either because there is so much space between the pin and the bubble, even in a 1.5" housing.


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## ImLazarus

I've seen worse behavior that adjusting the focus know on a pair of 8X Binos, I assure you. Some people will do anything just to get their name at the top of a list, let alone get a plaque or Trophy.
That's why we don't give them for regular shoots anymore.


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## hotwheels

*Great thread*

no binos
and a little yellow or orange dot the size of the 11 should solve any glassing vision issues due to target of angles
cap the speed limit at 300 (look at a 31 inch shooter verses a 26 who has the advantage here)


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## louie123

i recenyly shot the indoor world in cleveland and after the fact thought i should have got a visual on my next series of target and got my yardage as i walked to pull my arrows that i just shot but no one would do that right. would you consider that cheating or using everything to your advantage


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## SteveID

hotwheels said:


> no binos
> and a little yellow or orange dot the size of the 11 should solve any glassing vision issues due to target of angles
> cap the speed limit at 300 (look at a 31 inch shooter verses a 26 who has the advantage here)


Good question. Who really does have the advantage? The 31 inch draw shooter shooting a 7 inch brace doesn't have the same forgiveness as the 26 inch shooter shooting the same bow. Sure, the 31 inch draw shooter is going to have an easier time getting speed, but his bow has a much shorter effective brace height than does the shooter with a 26 inch draw. 

You gotta look at both sides of the fence. I do agree that there should be a 300 fps speed limit however.


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## 3Dblackncamo

do you think this is how the pros make it work,people like levi, dan mccarthy, dave cousins binos are a must unless you dont care about your score and just want to shoot, you must be able to see the scoring rings, every target is diff. and to try and stop cheating is like trying to stop a theif you cant!


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## blazenarrow

Naw these guys are great shooters no matter what.. All they need to do is focus on the target and pull though..


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## DernHumpus

I do it conciously. It is playing well within the rules.


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## J Whittington

I have my doubts that it could be done... different tarkgets, texture , detail lighting, shade, target quarting, etc.... angles, uphill dwon hill, 

I believe people are getting tired of being spanked and looking for an excuse, or make up reasons.... guys there are people that shoot 3-D that are that good a judging yardage. they invest a lot of time and money to beable to do so...


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## DernHumpus

J Whittington said:


> I have my doubts that it could be done... different tarkgets, texture , detail lighting, shade, target quarting, etc.... angles, uphill dwon hill,
> 
> I believe people are getting tired of being spanked and looking for an excuse, or make up reasons.... guys there are people that shoot 3-D that are that good a judging yardage. they invest a lot of time and money to beable to do so...


Trust me, it is very do-able and a very good tactic. If you had confidence in your prior shot but hit a bit high, then come up on the next target and have to adjust your focus to a further distance by just a touch, reshoot the same yardage. Bingo.


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## S4 300-60

C. Binoculars And Rangefinders
1. An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to judge yardage without the assistance of range finding devices or assistance from others. Therefore, cameras, rangefinders, or any other devices that may be used to calculate yardage to the target are prohibited. An archer may not use parts of his or her body, the bow, or any other accessories or equipment to calculate yardage. Archers using adjustable sights may not adjust their sight elevation after drawing the bow and sighting the target. Any mark on otherwise legal binoculars that could be construed as a reference point for range finding is prohibited.
2. Hand-held binoculars are allowed without magnification limitations.
3. Binoculars shall not be used at the stake after the shot has been taken. An archer with an adjustable sight may not re-adjust his or her sight after using binoculars at the shooting stake. Archers may utilize binoculars additionally to view the target while waiting their turn at the shooting stake or from an on-deck area behind a group that is in the process of shooting a target.

Here is the rule, directly from the book..........


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## J Whittington

Flint Hills Tex said:


> I find this discussion very interesting. Over here the use of binoculars is really frowned upon, and prohibited at a lot of "fun" shoots. I have poor eyesight, but am not that bad a judging distances. I never use binos, and feel that they should be prohibited at all shoots, period!
> 
> I can understand the desire of some to see the inner ring, but if nobody is using binos, then really nobody can see those rings! Nobody has an unfair advantage. Judging distance with only the "naked" eye is the name of the game.
> 
> Cheating is either using some mechanical aid or markings on your bow to judge distance, or it involves falsifying score cards, which can be eliminated by having 2 scorekeepers per flight.




Well if you really wanted to get technical.. then naked eye would mean with out the use of glassess or contacts... naked means bare, nothing!


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## cenochs

Just shoot known yardage in ASA !


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## sawdust2

*Allow Range Finders*

Any way you want to cut it, 3D is target shooting, period. Why let a gray area like possible cheating on yardage estimation even be an issue. Allow range finders and forget about all the various devious techniques that have been mentioned. If you are currently "cheating" in some manner you will then be legal and no one will care what you are doing and all of the heartburn should disappear. Or, don't use a range finder or cheat and shoot just as good a score and not have to worry about what the other folks are doing. They are legal and so are you.

If all the talk about not really caring about scores is true then there shouldn't be any problems with some ranging the yardage and others relying only on the "naked" eye. 

Good luck

sawdust2


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## asa1485

Caveman said:


> I was reading a thread asking why 3D participation is dropping off and a lot of the people that responded mentioned shooters cheating as a reason they quit 3D.
> Do you consider the following scenario cheating? And would your answer depend on whether it was done in a large tournament or a small local archery club?
> 
> An archer competing in a 3D shoot walks up to the first shooting stake and using a set of high quality binoculars glasses the target to determine an aiming point for the 11 ring. The archer adjusts the binoculars to have the sharpest image possible and after judging the yardage at 40 yards executes the shot perfectly and scores an 11.
> 
> The archer proceeds to the next station and at first glance thinks the target is a little closer than the last shot, maybe 37 – 38 yards. The archer then glasses the target but notices’ adjusting the knob slightly counterclockwise is required to achieve the same sharp image as the previous target. Almost subconsciously from years of experience the archer knows if the binoculars have to be adjusted in this manner from the last shot that was 40 yards, then the target has to be a little farther, not closer and rethinks and adjusts the judged yardage thus making a better shot and achieves a high score. If binoculars were not used and the shot was made on the first judgment, the score would have been less.
> 
> Well, do you consider this scenario cheating?
> Is your answer influenced by the size of the shoot or the organization hosting it?
> Is this a good reason to make binoculars illegal at 3D shoots?


It is not cheating unless he has marks on his binos to tell him how much he has adjusted.


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## alanbow

Would a sheet of paper with animal sizes from bottom of breast to top of back be considered cheating? I shot with a guy this year that had one at a ASA. Never really thought about it at the time. He shot good but can't say that the card made him better.


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## reylamb

alanbow said:


> Would a sheet of paper with animal sizes from bottom of breast to top of back be considered cheating? I shot with a guy this year that had one at a ASA. Never really thought about it at the time. He shot good but can't say that the card made him better.


Technically, yes, cheating.
--------------------------------------
Again, technically, in ASA, using the binos as a rangefinder is illegal. Of course proving it is another matter completely, unless the shooter just starts telling everyone what they are doing.

On some other questions on here. In the ASA, once you have drawn your bow back you can not change the site setting. I had this happen already this year, and I shoot in the K45 class. We had just left a 40 something yard deer and walked up to a 32 yard javelina. I drew back and knew right then I forgot to change my site. I let down, looked at the indicator, and yes indeed, I forgot to move the site. I just held under the body and managed to get a 10.

Do the pros use binos to frame targets? Doubtful, but anything is possible. I say doubtful because I never see them do it in the team shoot, or in shootdowns. I have never had a pro in a team shoot tell us what they estimated the target to be and then throw up binos and say, hey, it is farther than that. The top pros are just that good at ranging targets.


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## field14

Let 'em use range finders....it won't "Help" them beat the top guns, yardage "estimating" gurus anyways.

It has been claimed that the Yardage estimation gurus, if put out on a course with nothing but pencil and paper would have a net average on "estimating" yardages over a course of 20 targets...of LESS THAN 1/2 yard per target.

Since the best range finders are plus or minus 1/2 yard....at best.....that STILL gives the ADVANTAGE to the "yardage ESIMATING gurus"...who don't use "rangefinders." Therefore, why not just let everyone use rangefinders if they want....since they would still be at a DISADVANTAGE against the best of the best "estimators."

Or so they CLAIM, that is.....

No matter what, however, it still comes down to KNOWING THE TARGETS and exactly where those "kill zones" are, and then being able to EXECUTE the PERFECT SHOT more than the other guy/gal.

It is hilarious out on a course when a guy will shoot 6" to the left or right and utter..."I mis-judged the YARDAGE on that one." Uh-huh...

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.....What EXCUSE will ya use when you use a rangefinder to get the yardage and still get trounced by the "estimating gurus" anyway?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## JawsDad

reylamb said:


> Technically, yes, cheating.
> --------------------------------------
> Again, technically, in ASA, using the binos as a rangefinder is illegal. Of course proving it is another matter completely, unless the shooter just starts telling everyone what they are doing.
> 
> On some other questions on here. In the ASA, once you have drawn your bow back you can not change the site setting. I had this happen already this year, and I shoot in the K45 class. We had just left a 40 something yard deer and walked up to a 32 yard javelina. I drew back and knew right then I forgot to change my site. I let down, looked at the indicator, and yes indeed, I forgot to move the site. I just held under the body and managed to get a 10.
> 
> Do the pros use binos to frame targets? Doubtful, but anything is possible. I say doubtful because I never see them do it in the team shoot, or in shootdowns. I have never had a pro in a team shoot tell us what they estimated the target to be and then throw up binos and say, hey, it is farther than that. The top pros are just that good at ranging targets.



I understand the rule, is the rule. But, in known 45/50, why would you not be allowed to change your site after you've drawn? You already know the distance afterall.. 

We were discussing this in our group in Paris. I could not remember the rule as to when you could or could not adjust your site, or re-glass, the target. So, I just basically did what you mentioned above. Seems kind of silly for the known classes though..


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## reylamb

JawsDad said:


> I understand the rule, is the rule. But, in known 45/50, why would you not be allowed to change your site after you've drawn? You already know the distance afterall..
> 
> We were discussing this in our group in Paris. I could not remember the rule as to when you could or could not adjust your site, or re-glass, the target. So, I just basically did what you mentioned above. Seems kind of silly for the known classes though..


I agree, it does seem silly and ridiculous. Since they did not change the rule, or clarify it for the K45 classes I just followed the existing rule. Just one less thing for someone to complain about down the road.

Of course, since it is a known class I have broken a couple of "rules" that do not make sense. I do not have a yardage cover on my site right now, just do not see the need for it. I also went down the target lane was to stand a target back up before our group began shooting that target. The rules state you can not approach the target prior to shooting, get a range official to stand it back up, etc, etc, because they do not want someone stepping it off. I thought that was not using common sense, so I just walked down and stood the target back up before we shot without waiting for a range official...I mean, seriously, what was I going to do, pace off a target in a known class:teeth::shade:


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## deadzonehunter

I do not feel it is cheating I shoot 3D courses like I hunt, no time for range finders or binoculars but if people feel they have enough time to use their binoculars and range finders they are allowed to in my group. I am not there for the competition I am there for the practice for the most part. by not having a range finder my judge of yardage has improved by leaps and bounds by just eye balling it.


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## Supermag1

alanbow said:


> Would a sheet of paper with animal sizes from bottom of breast to top of back be considered cheating? I shot with a guy this year that had one at a ASA. Never really thought about it at the time. He shot good but can't say that the card made him better.


I believe it's even written in the rules that this is illegal. You may have pictures with the scoring rings marked but there maybe no writing or marks drawn on those pictures for referancing.


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## dpattarcher

yes that would be cheating, IBO rules state once you look through your bino's at the stake you cannot adjust your sight.
If I was in this situation I would hold a little high.


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## FULLER

I shoot some of the ibo in Michigan and using a set of binos is almost a must if you want to see the rings


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## [email protected]

Caveman said:


> I was reading a thread asking why 3D participation is dropping off and a lot of the people that responded mentioned shooters cheating as a reason they quit 3D.
> Do you consider the following scenario cheating? And would your answer depend on whether it was done in a large tournament or a small local archery club?
> 
> An archer competing in a 3D shoot walks up to the first shooting stake and using a set of high quality binoculars glasses the target to determine an aiming point for the 11 ring. The archer adjusts the binoculars to have the sharpest image possible and after judging the yardage at 40 yards executes the shot perfectly and scores an 11.
> 
> The archer proceeds to the next station and at first glance thinks the target is a little closer than the last shot, maybe 37 – 38 yards. The archer then glasses the target but notices’ adjusting the knob slightly counterclockwise is required to achieve the same sharp image as the previous target. Almost subconsciously from years of experience the archer knows if the binoculars have to be adjusted in this manner from the last shot that was 40 yards, then the target has to be a little farther, not closer and rethinks and adjusts the judged yardage thus making a better shot and achieves a high score. If binoculars were not used and the shot was made on the first judgment, the score would have been less.
> 
> Well, do you consider this scenario cheating?
> Is your answer influenced by the size of the shoot or the organization hosting it?
> Is this a good reason to make binoculars illegal at 3D shoots?


If the binos have marks on that adjustment ring... they can be used like a rangefinder. Then the answer would be yes he is cheating. If there are no visable marks then no.


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## asa_low12

When I first started shooting a bow about 13 years ago I immediately got into 3d shooting. After my first local shoot with a friend and his dad's friends I got a good pair of brunton binoculars used from a "local pro". I immediately tried what the subject of this thread is and it was absolutely worthless to me. On my bino's they are still very clear and sharp whether it's 38 or 41 yards. You can't tell any difference by refocusing a 1/64th of an inch. 

I'm not saying that given the right pair of bino's that this couldn't be done, but not for mine. I tried. I knew nothing about the rules. I was 12 and first started shooting. I'll go try again here in a minute and tell you how it works out these days. My guess is that it might help you determine whether it's 20 or 40, but if you can't determine that on your own, your screwed anyway.


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## 12tamer3d

not a very reliable way to cheat... think about how easy it would be to bump the focus off the binos inbetween shots.... now if they had marks on their binos to indicate yardage for a certian focus point sure i would consider that cheating..


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## JBurnsed

No, I wouldn't call it cheating.... He's just good at what he does. Perfectly legal, in my oponion.


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## jamerman09

May have already been posted but according to asa rules anything other then your natual eyes used to estimate yardage is illegal. If your asking if its breaking the rules then yes it is. Jmo


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## GimpyPaw

Seems like a trivial thing to worry about, if you ask me. A guy walks up to the line, takes his time and estimates the yardage to be 42 yards. He sets his slider to 42, raises the bow and draws. With the bow now up he uses the tape marks on his slider and fits the body of the target between certain yardage marks he has memorized. He lowers down and then reviews the numbers in his head. 

He noted that the body fit between the 10 yard mark and the 43 yard mark, and having memorized the various models of the targets Rinehart has he knows that the distance is probably more like 46 yards. His sight is already adjusted, but that's not a problem. He draws the bow a 2nd time and intentionally aims a little high, hitting the mark.

Why draw more than once to shoot? Need the workout? Yes, what I just described is clearly cheating, but almost impossible to detect or prove. If I were inclined to use something other than "the naked eye" to judge yardage I would use both the binoculars and my sight tape guage.

Or you can do like I do, throw the score card away at the start of the shoot and go have fun.


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## reylamb

GimpyPaw said:


> Seems like a trivial thing to worry about, if you ask me. A guy walks up to the line, takes his time and estimates the yardage to be 42 yards. He sets his slider to 42, raises the bow and draws. With the bow now up he uses the tape marks on his slider and fits the body of the target between certain yardage marks he has memorized. He lowers down and then reviews the numbers in his head.
> 
> He noted that the body fit between the 10 yard mark and the 43 yard mark, and having memorized the various models of the targets Rinehart has he knows that the distance is probably more like 46 yards. His sight is already adjusted, but that's not a problem. He draws the bow a 2nd time and intentionally aims a little high, hitting the mark.
> 
> Why draw more than once to shoot? Need the workout? Yes, what I just described is clearly cheating, but almost impossible to detect or prove. If I were inclined to use something other than "the naked eye" to judge yardage I would use both the binoculars and my sight tape guage.
> 
> Or you can do like I do, throw the score card away at the start of the shoot and go have fun.


Which is another reason why the yardage tapes are supposed to be covered. Of course, I do not know how anyone could see their yardage marks on the side of their site at full draw anyway, so unless they have marks on their scope housing.....which would again be illegal......

I do not know anyone that would go to a national ASA and just throw their scorecard out to shoot for fun though either....unless they had a really bad day, and then they might throw their scorecard out for other reasons


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## zap

The bino thing is a small matter. If you want to stop cheating at local shoots you would have to bust groups, then all the new groups would be the same class. Shotgun start.
But that would effect attendance, so we all have to live with it.
Cheating is rampant at the local level around here. :mg:

The thing is, its pretty typical of the values alot of folks in this country have:

Winning is all that matters, how you played the game does not matter at all.:thumbs_do


Its the same with antler frenzy :moose:, shooting a big deer is all important.
Taking it by legal means is secondary, to way too many folks.

Something else I have noticed is that the folks that complain the most about others not following the rules, dont follow them themselves. 


marty


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## Hoosier bowman

If he is in Hunter class, it's cheating, because he would never have time to do that with a real animal. If it is a higher class, it's not chating, because they are not doing it for hunting practice.


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## FULL-BORE

zap said:


> The bino thing is a small matter. If you want to stop cheating at local shoots you would have to bust groups, then all the new groups would be the same class. Shotgun start.
> But that would effect attendance, so we all have to live with it.
> Cheating is rampant at the local level around here. :mg:
> 
> The thing is, its pretty typical of the values alot of folks in this country have:
> 
> Winning is all that matters, how you played the game does not matter at all.:thumbs_do
> 
> 
> Its the same with antler frenzy :moose:, shooting a big deer is all important.
> Taking it by legal means is secondary, to way too many folks.
> 
> Something else I have noticed is that the folks that complain the most about others not following the rules, dont follow them themselves.
> 
> 
> marty


Just who are you accusing of cheating around here?


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## zap

FULL-BORE said:


> Just who are you accusing of cheating around here?


Im not sure about how the AT names match up with the real names, but if you shoot fingers, not you. Thats for sure.
I would not think that you need to, or would be so inclined.
Especially when you outshoot release shooters, myself included, from the same stakes.


I did not accuse anyone, but rule breaking is common. 
I am pretty confident with that statement.

marty


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## PennArcher88

NS17IL said:


> I don't belive that it would matter if it was a small shoot, or a large shoot. If you think that this is cheating it has to be cheating for both large and small events. Now about the binoculars, everyone is aloud to have binoculars and how you use them is up to you. I do think that it would be a lot more intresting if you couldn't use them and also much more skill. In real life most likely you are not going to use your binoculars in this way, because you only have one shot, but I have gotten two shots off at the same deer. Needless to say I didn't use my binoculars for the second shot, I already knew were it was going. So in short if its "legal" use them, if they banned them it would be more fun.


I dont think its cheating either. When hunting you should know what spot you want to hit, but when shooting 3d you are being as precise as possible to score as high as possible. Now im not saying that when hunting you should be careless and just shoot to kill, but isnt that what you want. You want a clean kill. You want to see the rings in 3d, and half the time they arent when you would normally shoot an animal. I think that binoculars are perfectly legal for 3d


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## 4snshine

FULL-BORE said:


> Just who are you accusing of cheating around here?


I'd like to know as well:

Quote: Cheating is rampant at the local level around here. 

That's a pretty bold statement! Any proof? Or are you just trying discredit the people who shoot better than you? 
The people i know who consistantly turn in good scores put in lots of time and effort practicing so they'll be more competitive, and they would be exteremly offended to have someone accuse them of cheating. They would also be the first ones to say grab your bow and put your money where your mouth is :wink:..... maybe you should invite yourself to shoot with some of these "cheaters", then you would know for sure if they were cheating. All i'm saying is, don't assume someone is cheating, and don't accuse unless you're sure. This is the kindof stuff that turns away the people we need to help support 3d.

Warren


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## 4snshine

zap said:


> The bino thing is a small matter. If you want to stop cheating at local shoots you would have to bust groups, then all the new groups would be the same class. Shotgun start.
> But that would effect attendance, so we all have to live with it.
> Cheating is rampant at the local level around here. :mg:
> 
> The thing is, its pretty typical of the values alot of folks in this country have:
> 
> Winning is all that matters, how you played the game does not matter at all.:thumbs_do
> 
> 
> Its the same with antler frenzy :moose:, shooting a big deer is all important.
> Taking it by legal means is secondary, to way too many folks.
> 
> Something else I have noticed is that the folks that complain the most about others not following the rules, dont follow them themselves.
> 
> 
> marty


I'd like to know as well:

Quote: Cheating is rampant at the local level around here. 

That's a pretty bold statement! Any proof? Or are you just trying discredit the people who shoot better than you? 
The people i know who consistantly turn in good scores put in lots of time and effort practicing so they'll be more competitive, and they would be exteremly offended to have someone accuse them of cheating. They would also be the first ones to say grab your bow and put your money where your mouth is ..... maybe you should invite yourself to shoot with some of these "cheaters", then you would know for sure if they were cheating. All i'm saying is, don't assume someone is cheating, and don't accuse unless you're sure. This is the kindof stuff that turns away the people we need to help support 3d.


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## zap

4snshine said:


> I'd like to know as well:
> 
> Quote: Cheating is rampant at the local level around here.
> 
> That's a pretty bold statement! Any proof? Or are you just trying discredit the people who shoot better than you?
> The people i know who consistantly turn in good scores put in lots of time and effort practicing so they'll be more competitive, and they would be exteremly offended to have someone accuse them of cheating. They would also be the first ones to say grab your bow and put your money where your mouth is ..... maybe you should invite yourself to shoot with some of these "cheaters", then you would know for sure if they were cheating. All i'm saying is, don't assume someone is cheating, and don't accuse unless you're sure. This is the kindof stuff that turns away the people we need to help support 3d.


Bold as it may be, that statement was my opinion and was not based on assumption, but rather things that I have seen with my own eyes.
And I stand by it.

Too many folks shoot better than me for me to try to discredit them all, I am not that ambitious. 
I am well aware of the kind of commitment that goes into consistantly shooting well, and I have never and would never belittle those that have achived this goal. They have my respect for what they have achieved.

For me to grab my bow and put my money where my mouth is has no relevance to this discussion, as I was not comparing my shooting abality to someone elses. 
I was comparing ethics, or the lack of them.
Not my ethics, but the ethics of following the rules.
When someone breaks the range rules, bumps their score, or cheats in any way, I have an issue with that.
As most would.

Any other questions?

marty


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## Timbow

Maybe some people need the binoc's to read the rules. Reguardless of class if he's using anything besides his naked eye *to judge or aid in judging* the yardage it's against the rules, soooooo.........he's cheatin'. Unless of course its a good 'ole local fun shoot then its up to who your shootin' with.

Tim


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## rogersaddler

*2010 IBO rules*

I just read the 2010 IBO rules and it states that you can use any magnification binos.


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## 3Dblackncamo

a person that wants to cheat will no matter what the rest will do what they think is right, i have seen lots of stuff go on and you cant stop it so why worry about it!


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## PSE Kid

PSE Kid said:


> i dont think so, but it is a great idea if u want to win. u could havve little marks descrining what the distance is when it focusses perfectly. u would know the distance everytime. that is great!


alright, i have to give this a try. i think i could play with it enough that i could have a litle sight tape sort of what is on movable sights. i could use archers advantage until it got right. it would be pretty useless because my max yardage is 35, and i shoot an omen that shoots a x-ringer hv 350 at 347fps. that is blazing. i have most of the shots between 17-27 yards. if i use 1 pin set at 23, i do perfectly fine.


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## turkeyhunter60

*Using binoculars at 3d shoots!!!*

The reason you use binoculars at 3d shoots is too see the spot on the target.Every local 3d shoot i go to sometimes you cannot see the spot on the 3d animal. As for cheating at 3d shoots. When i started 3d shoots back in 1989, i saw guys looking at the score boards and changing there score cards afterwords. 2 years ago i saw one guy and his wife walking around the 3d course using a range finder, of course these were local 3d shoots. Your just cheating yourself. I shoot for fun first compete 2nd.:darkbeer:


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## 11P&Y

People do cheat at the local level but i have not seen people mark their binoculars. I went to one shoot this year so far where i saw someone cheating and i asked him if it made him feel better to know he fudged his scoreand his response was that it made him look good to others. He did not fudge it to win...but to look like he shot in the 180's instead of the 140's. 

In years past, you would see some shoot within their little cliche and they would shoot 190's out of 200 and when they shot with folks they did not know, they would shoot i the 160's or even lower. 

I shoot for fun these days because i got sick of people cheating just so they could get a mug, t-shirt, trophy or even money to take home. 


And before some dimwit comes on here and questions my shooting ability, why don't you come to the Rinehart 100 this weekend in Wetumpka Al and we will shoot together for the day.


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## Rattleman

With all cheating and circumventing the rules I decided a long time ago to just step away from 3D and shoot Field. Less cheating and more arrows.


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## Rattleman

asa_low12 said:


> When I first started shooting a bow about 13 years ago I immediately got into 3d shooting. After my first local shoot with a friend and his dad's friends I got a good pair of brunton binoculars used from a "local pro". I immediately tried what the subject of this thread is and it was absolutely worthless to me. On my bino's they are still very clear and sharp whether it's 38 or 41 yards. You can't tell any difference by refocusing a 1/64th of an inch.
> 
> I'm not saying that given the right pair of bino's that this couldn't be done, but not for mine. I tried. I knew nothing about the rules. I was 12 and first started shooting. I'll go try again here in a minute and tell you how it works out these days. My guess is that it might help you determine whether it's 20 or 40, but if you can't determine that on your own, your screwed anyway.


Its not about the 2 or 3 yards. Its about the 5 or more yards. My Leicas are good enough to accomplich this feat. When you are shooting over 300 fps or in that neighborhood and have a way of swaying the yardage in your favor then you will never have to shoot a shot out of the 10 ring. I no longer shoot 3D except if some of my 3D friends pull me along during one of our weekday league shoot. The only way that I can compete with them is to stretch the rules in my favor. My field setup only shoots at about 245 fps and the only way that I can even try and compete with these guys is to find an advantage.Since this is just a once or twice per year thing and it is purely for a grab ass day at the range I will play the games. The problem is these guys are not familar with the bino technique and this allows me to run with the big boys. It is cheating..IMHO yes it is and I would never condone something like this if the shoot actually meant anything.


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## turkeyhunter60

*Using binoculars at 3d shoots!!!*

Nice friend!Your friends invite you to the 3d shoot,there bows shoot 300fps.and your bow shoots 245fps.and you have to cheat to compete.Why don't you get a 300fps. bow,or judge yds. better.Hope your friends read this.:darkbeer:


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## A.j.

*Cheating.*

In a class such as hunter class it would not be cheating as long as the binos do not have marks showing the focus in regards to yardage. 

However in open class or any class with and adjustable sight atleast for the IBO you must adjust your sight befor you glass the target. If you would then like to make a change you must ask the group members if this is ok. Most groups wont care unless it is extremly common. This may then have the group upset and get your glasses checked for any type of range finding aid.


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## Rattleman

turkeyhunter60 said:


> Nice friend!Your friends invite you to the 3d shoot,there bows shoot 300fps.and your bow shoots 245fps.and you have to cheat to compete.Why don't you get a 300fps. bow,or judge yds. better.Hope your friends read this.:darkbeer:


Like I said the only time I even think about shooting 3D is when they drag me from the field practice range onto the 3D range. Look, a spottie has to have some tricks up his sleeve in order to compete with the chewies:shade:


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## Rattleman

A.j. said:


> In a class such as hunter class it would not be cheating as long as the binos do not have marks showing the focus in regards to yardage.
> 
> However in open class or any class with and adjustable sight atleast for the IBO you must adjust your sight befor you glass the target. If you would then like to make a change you must ask the group members if this is ok. Most groups wont care unless it is extremly common. This may then have the group upset and get your glasses checked for any type of range finding aid.


This is all well and good but what if they glass before they get to the shooting stake? Glass it for about 40 and then subtract the 3 yards that you are standing behind and now you have 37 yards. Not rocket science here


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## Radford Wooly

Binos are not illegal unless they're over 8 power in most organizations and leagues. They are a crucial part of 3-D. If someone needs them to calculate yardage, let them. They still actually have to make the shot!!


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