# What's wrong with this picture????



## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Little background first... 

Distance to paper = 13 yards.
Bow = 2003 Hoyt UltraTec
Draw Length = 27 1/2"
Draw Weight = 65 lbs.
Arrow = X7 Eclipse 2314
Arrow Length = 27 5/8"
Rest type = TT Shakey Hunter @ full-up in last 1.75" of draw
D-loop = yes
Release = Carter Quickie 2

OK, here's what I'm doing... Some of you will disagree with the importance or value of bare-shaft paper tuning, but I have always found it to be a useful tuning tool for me. I'm not here to argue any of that. I just have one specific question about the results I've been getting with this new TT rest. 

In the picture below you will notice the tears are designated with either the letter "A" or the letter "B". This is because the letter "A" tears were all made with one arrow and the letter "B" tears were all made with another arrow. The red "P"s note the point position. Both bare shafts are marked so that the nock is always shot in the same position and both are exactly the same length and have the same point weight (100 grains). Here's what I started noticing... All of arrow "A" tears tended to always be nock left, and all of arrow "B" tears tended to always be nock right. Granted, it looks like I have an overall high nock situation, I am just puzzled by why one arrow would be exactly the opposite than another with regard to left/right nock attitude. My objective is to have as close to a bullet hole as possible from this distance and since each arrow is basically telling me to tune the rest in an opposite direction, I don't have any real idea about what to do.  Anybody have any ideas??? :noidea:


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Rotate your nock of 1 of the arrows and try it again


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Doc said:


> Rotate your nock of 1 of the arrows and try it again


I hear ya Doc, but what do you think is going on that rotating the nock will fix? Is it a spine issue? Or just a micro tune tweaky issue?


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

This will help "tune" the slight variations in the stiffness and straightness of the arrow. Also some times you get a "bad nock" and it just needs turned or replaced. There is a "heavy" side to all arrows and some guys tease this out by floating their arrows before fletching or with a high $ device. Anyway I would turn the nock 90 degrees or swap out the nocks and see what the paper tells you.


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## BowhunterNJ (Oct 21, 2002)

Hey Mike what kind of nocks are you using and how tight are they on the string? Also what kind of D loop are you using? Any nocking point tied? Any nock pinch from the D loop?

Also, would get closer to the paper, 3-6 feet to see how it is coming off the bow...that will be consistent. I'm not saying it's likely, but erratic things happen at greater distances and something up front (detectable closer) might throw the arrow off inconsistently and make tuning at 13 feet more difficult.

The other thing, do you have the UltraTec Spiral, XT 2000, or XT3000?


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## BogeyMan (Feb 11, 2004)

I would rotate the nock on one also or turn it upside down and see what happens. If the spines are consistant in both, it could be the seam of the shafts are on different sides. I thinking on the same lines as Doc. Pretty interesting find glad you shared it with everyone.


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

BowhunterNJ said:


> Hey Mike what kind of nocks are you using and how tight are they on the string? Also what kind of D loop are you using? Any nocking point tied? Any nock pinch from the D loop?


I am using Bohning Signature Nocks, they are a little tight but I don't think they are too bad. I use a tied-on D loop with tied on nocks above and below the arrow nock with a little bit of space between them and the arrow nock. So, nock pinch isn't a problem.


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

BowhunterNJ said:


> Also, would get closer to the paper, 3-6 feet to see how it is coming off the bow...that will be consistent. I'm not saying it's likely, but erratic things happen at greater distances and something up front (detectable closer) might throw the arrow off inconsistently and make tuning at 13 feet more difficult.
> 
> The other thing, do you have the UltraTec Spiral, XT 2000, or XT3000?


When I tune this way, I actually start at 8 feet from the paper, then I move to 16 feet, then finally I end at around 13 yards. Distance magnifies tuning problems for sure. My process is to get a near bullet hole at each distance before moving back to the next distance. So, if I move up, I will get bullet holes no problem. And bare shaft paper tuning past 13 yards is near to impossible without a shooting machine, so I don't push it past this distance. But to answer your question, yes 13 yards is more difficult, but it is the the best distance to highlight tuning issues.

The answer to your second question is cam.5 and XT2000 limbs. And for the bonus round... Cams are timed and in sync and tiller is equal.


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## Ar smith (Aug 11, 2004)

not trying to be a smart aleck but..just a bit of info about the arrows...the aluminum is drawn,there is no seam.i work for a aluminum co.that used to supply arrow tubing and its all drawn and seamless,just like a baseball/softball bat.that being said maybe its just the normal oscillation of the arrow.i would be more interested in how it groups.of course this is just my 2cents.


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## BowhunterNJ (Oct 21, 2002)

Mike, are you shooting indoors or outdoors? 
Maybe other factors are influencing the bare shaft flight even at 13 yards?

You have bullet holes from what max distance?

Also as mentioned above, how is the grouping? You are getting clean tears, just not farther out...perhaps you've reached the maximum of stability at 13 yards without fletching. I know some guys can fire bare shafts a long ways in ideal, windless conditions...but if you are grouping FPs with BHs at your maximum range and also getting clean tears to N yards...I have to ask, what is your end goal...you want to shoot clean bare shaft bullets at what Z yardage?

Also, have you tried shooting 13 yards with a fletched arrow to see if the vane/feather added stability helps keep the tear consistent?


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

BowhunterNJ said:


> Mike, are you shooting indoors or outdoors?
> Maybe other factors are influencing the bare shaft flight even at 13 yards?


I'm shooting indoors.



BowhunterNJ said:


> You have bullet holes from what max distance?


8 feet = 100% bare shaft bullet holes
18 feet = 90% bare shaft bullet holes
36 feet = 1" bare shaft tears, no bullet holes



BowhunterNJ said:


> Also as mentioned above, how is the grouping? You are getting clean tears, just not farther out...perhaps you've reached the maximum of stability at 13 yards without fletching. I know some guys can fire bare shafts a long ways in ideal, windless conditions...but if you are grouping FPs with BHs at your maximum range and also getting clean tears to N yards...I have to ask, what is your end goal...you want to shoot clean bare shaft bullets at what Z yardage?


FP grouping is good. Occasional flyer, but not bad. Haven't tried grouping FP with BH just yet. I'm actually going through this exercise in hopes of very little to zero fine tuning with broadheads once I shoot them (I don't have them in my possession just yet, still waiting....). You are probably right about reaching maximum stability with bare shafts. But, I still am not getting perfect fletched shaft tears. They're real close, but not perfect.... So, I guess my end goal is perfection... :wink: 



BowhunterNJ said:


> Also, have you tried shooting 13 yards with a fletched arrow to see if the vane/feather added stability helps keep the tear consistent?


Tears are close to perfect, but still inconsistent. Probably only a 1/16" tear. I've had better, so I know it's possible. So, the fletchings (blazers) are doing their job, but I really would like to get the bare shafts closer to perfect so the fletchings don't have to work too hard to stabilize the arrow.

I still am really amazed at each shaft's individual sensitivity. I'm not looking forward to tuning each individual arrow, but I guess if that's what it takes...  :wink: 

I'll post up another picture tomorrow when I have some more time to play around with the nocks.


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## BowhunterNJ (Oct 21, 2002)

I know how it is for people to criticize your form without ever seeing it, so I'm not going to do that to you...but I will say that 1/16" variance *could* be due to minor changes in grip and other form factors.

I've never seen paper tear variation shot to shot unless there was something really wrong with the arrows (i.e. way underspined)...but assuming I put everything into OnTarget correctly, your arrows looked to line up right in the green and close to center.

Try shooting ONE bare shaft at a time and see if it is tearing consistently at all ranges over and over. If you are getting the same tears from that arrow, but different tears from another arrow at those respective ranges...I'd suspect there is something different with the arrows.

Variance with ONE arrow indicates arrow (spine) issue or form issue or bow issue (worst case).

Consistency with ONE arrow and consistency with ANOTHER arrow, but ONE and ANOTHER shoot/tear differently indicates an arrow problem IMO (whether it's straightness, nock alignment, nock pinch, etc.

Have you done any spin testing with the arrows to ensure they are wobble free and straight? I'm clearly just shooting at the obvious issues here...but it's odd you are getting the variance from arrow to arrow.

Brand new arrows? Self cut? Self glued/epoxied? Is there ANYTHING different between the arrows at all?


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## jbyrd_1976 (Aug 29, 2006)

bare shaft is used to test nock location if I remeber correctly. If nock is out of location it will porpise. Have you tried shooting fletched arrows throught the paper test?


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

BowhunterNJ said:


> I know how it is for people to criticize your form without ever seeing it, so I'm not going to do that to you...but I will say that 1/16" variance *could* be due to minor changes in grip and other form factors.
> 
> I've never seen paper tear variation shot to shot unless there was something really wrong with the arrows (i.e. way underspined)...but assuming I put everything into OnTarget correctly, your arrows looked to line up right in the green and close to center.
> 
> ...


No worries about any form critique... My form is not perfect and is responsible, at least in part, for the imperfect bare shaft flight I'm getting. However, if you look at the picture, you'll only notice one or two tears from each respective arrow that are different than the "average" and I chalk that up to form issues.

The arrows I'm using are not new, and are probably at least a little out of their original streightness specs. But, I detect very little to zero wobble when I palm-spin them. However, based on their consistency, I don't think they are too bad. But, I do have a couple shafts that haven't been shot yet. I'll try those tonight to see what tears I get.

Basically, after reading everyones posts here and giving it a little more thought myself, I think a couple things are causing this...

1.) my rest needs to be further tweaked
2.) my nocks need to be further tweaked
3.) I might have a couple bent-ish arrows
4.) my form still needs a little work
5.) I need to shoot some fixed blade broadheads to see how they group
6.) I may be obsessing over the perverbial mole-hill.

I'll report back tonight after I do some further testing.


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## Roland (Oct 16, 2002)

I like answer number 6....................:wink:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

I see issues in both the A and B tears... they are not consistent within themselves either...

I'd start with the nock fit and progress from there..


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## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

But hows it shooting??? Grouping well or not??? I was too once stuck on paper tuning and that was it, but a tech from Mathews told me to set centershot at 3/4 nock level, and then sight in, and then group tune. But first I walk back tuned for centershot which ended up at 11/16". This is where most centershot's end up on Mathews bow because of the drop away, after that I group tuned and my FP, and BH hit the exact same spot:darkbeer: so don't get all hung up on just the paper tuning, see how it shoot's also:wink: just my 2 cents worth


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Roland said:


> I like answer number 6....................:wink:


Yea, but that's what makes archery so fun!!! wink back at 'cha! :wink:








For the record, you're right though....


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

JAVI said:


> I see issues in both the A and B tears... they are not consistent within themselves either...
> 
> I'd start with the nock fit and progress from there..


You may very well be correct, Javi. But, unfortunately for me, most of the inconsistency is due to the Indian, not the arrow... :wink:

A big part of this exercise for me is learning how slight changes in my form affect arrow flight. When the shot just feels right and it breaks perfectly, my tears are consistent.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Spin those nocks and let's see the results...I have been waiting all day for the new pictures:wink:


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

*Update from my shooting session tonight....*

I made some very minor rest adjustments based on the general point-low attitude of most of the tears from both bare shaft tears began greatly improving. I was able to get one shaft to print a handfull of bullet holes (when my form was perfect) and the other arrow is still a little rough, but improving. I will try a couple new nocks tomorrow and see how close I can get without going nuts....


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Mike Trump said:


> ....without going nuts....


Too late:wink:


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

Doc said:


> Spin those nocks and let's see the results...I have been waiting all day for the new pictures:wink:


I did spin the nock of the "bad" arrow this evening, but no dice. The tear only got worse, not better. I must have already had it in the best possible position for that shaft. Perhaps the arrow is bent or the nock is bad. My form started degrading rather fast tonight (I had to push mow the back yard prior to shooting) so I didn't get to shoot near as much as I had originally hoped for. 

Sorry, I forgot I promised a picture... :embara: I'll go down and take a picture of my last two arrow tears so you can see where I'm at... :thumbs_up


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## BowhunterNJ (Oct 21, 2002)

Mike have you done any spin testing of the arrows to see if they are straight?

There are rollers sold to test them, but you can spin them on your finger with a clean tip (no dents, etc) or roll them on a flat surface and observer the front insert to see if it lifts or wobbles at all.

Might save you alot of grief if you can identify any "problem" arrows rather than trying to get them to shoot straight/consistent!


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Mike Trump said:


> You may very well be correct, Javi. But, unfortunately for me, most of the inconsistency is due to the Indian, not the arrow... :wink:
> 
> A big part of this exercise for me is learning how slight changes in my form affect arrow flight. When the shot just feels right and it breaks perfectly, my tears are consistent.


well I was trying to be polite...:wink:


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## Mike Trump (Sep 3, 2004)

*Here's the pic...*

Last two shots of the evening... Both from 13 yards away. Shaft "A" is as close as it's gonna get. This was number 3 or 4 in the bullet hole category for this shaft. Shaft "B" is still not there yet. But, my form on "B" was not perfect either, so it magnified the poor tear a little bit. After spinning shaft "B", it might have a slight bend in it, but it's hardly noticeable. I'm going to strip some fletchings off of a few more of my new arrows and see how they do tomorrow. I'll keep everyone posted.


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