# How to set up a blade rest?



## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

This is a good video to watch


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

travisd14 said:


> I have a fairly new target bow I've been playing with the last couple months. Ive been wanting to completely re set it up and tune everything. First thing I'd like to do is the rest. Right now it's set at 37 degrees. What does changing the angle do? Does it give you better clearance or just help keep the arrow on the rest? First time using a blade and my first target bow also. I'd appreciate any tips on using one. Thanks!


BLADE rest is a leaf spring, first and foremost. So, the STEEPER the angle, the HARDER the blade pushes back...the REBOUND effect. So, the FLATTER the angle, the more CUSHY the ride. So, the BLADE is NOT designed to HOLD UP the weight of the arrow. HEAVY arrows, skinny lightweight TARGET arrows...the BLADE thickness has NOTHING to do with SUPPORTING arrow weight. PERIOD. Look up slow motion video on YouTube for the launch of a compound bow arrow. The middle of your arrows BEND quite a bit, when you LAUNCH an arrow. The BLADE works as a shock absorber..that's what a LEAF SPRING suspension is for...the provide shock absorption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikGpIqlO5VQ

The leaf spring arrow rest (blade rest) is designed to try to CALM DOWN the bending of the arrow, when you launch an arrow. Set the blade at 37 degrees above horizontal, then your LEAF spring provides a STIFFER leaf spring reaction...HARDER rebound reaction. Set the blade at 30 degrees above horizontal, then your LEAF spring provides a more CUSHY ride, a SOFTER rebound reaction. The VANES provide LIFT. The VANES will always lift the front end of the arrow to LEVEL arrow flight, as long as you are aiming at a shoulder height x-ring, 20 yards away.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Why 30 degrees? Cuz, this is a flatter blade angle, and this makes a BLADE rest MUCH more forgiving to tune. Reduces that NASTY rebound reaction. HOW do I know what is 30 degrees? Make a paper triangle that is 1.75-inches long, and 1-inch tall.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NExt, tie your d-loop for a LEVEL arrow. ASSUME that your arrow flies DEAD level, parallel to your sight, when at FULL speed. So, with the riser vertical, then, have your arrow running horizontal, or 90 degrees to your riser. I do this with the bow SIDEWAYS on the KITCHEN table. ASSUME the arrow runs at the SAME height as your two arrow rest holes. I move the BLADE rest all the way DOWN, so the blade rest is out of the way.



HOW do I know that the ARROW is running 90 degrees to the riser, if the bow is SIDEWAYS? SIMPLE. See the target sight? The extension arm is 90 degrees to the riser. So, just plop the arrow on some DVD boxes, and run the arrow directly above the berger holes, and swing the arrow parallel to the target sight extension arm. Set your d-loop to this position. JUST like in this photo.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NEXT, we have to set the STARTING vertical position of the blade rest. I have my DS Advantage blade rest BOTTOMED out. NOW, I move the micro adjust knob, to move the blade rest in the VERTICAL up direction.



Keep moving the Blade Rest in the UP direction, closer and closer and closer, until you have the V NOTCH of the blade tips JUST KISSING the blade, with ZERO bending of the blade.



Arrow has not moved, arrow still parallel to the target sight extension arm. Just moving the blade rest closer to the arrow shaft.



Contact. The blade has ZERO bending. I have moved the blade rest micro adjust, in the UP direction, until the blade kisses the arrow. You can see that the arrow rest FRAME is horizontal, and that the arrow is dead parallel to the top edge of the arrow rest FRAME. THIS is a GOOD starting point for the ARROW REST height. So, let's see what happens to the BLADE, when you get the bow vertical. THIS happens.



Did I move the d-loop up SKY HIGH? NOPE. This is called BLADE SAG, the blade is SAGGING under the weight of my Carbon Express Nano XR 410 arrow, with 120 grain point in front. BUT BUT BUT, that LOOKS like it is sagging a LOT. YUP. DOn't care. CUz, the VANES will ALWAYS lift up the arrow to LEVEL flight, when aiming at a LEVEL, shoulder height x-ring. THE SAGGY blade is ONLY there to provide SHOCK ABSORBER rebound cushioning.

Well, HOW does it SHOOT?



Took only TWO clicks on the VERTICAL micro adjust knob. That is a vertical adjustment of 0.004-inches. That's 1/256th of an inch. Told you that a BLADE rest is not very forgiving. 0.004-inches is just a hair thicker than a SHEET of printer paper. Diet Coke aluminum soda cans use sheet aluminum that is 0.003-inches thick. Moving the BLADE rest 0.004-inches in the VERTICAL direction, cut my 20 yard group size in half, so all three arrows were touching.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

What happens when you just BLINDLY follow the blade manufacturer instructions about blade thickness for a particular weight arrow? Particular weight arrow should use the 0.010 blade thickness? THIS happens. You get a WILD rebound reaction. 



TIGHT fletched groups at 20 yards. This fella is a 300 5 spot shooter, with a middling X-count. He wanted to boost his x-count, and tried a BARESHAFT to see what happens. WILD tail high nock, but HEY...he shoots 300s on the 5 spot. FLETCHED group is as TIGHT as can be. Yup. BUt, he wanted BETTER. Besides, the Mid-West Open 5 spot tournament was only 1 week away.

His OLD blade setup. Blade is the 0.010 size, just like the manufacturer recommends. See how STIFF his blade is? ZERO sag. BAD news. This was holding back his X-ring count.







Sooo, this fella learned that it's ALL ABOUT THE SAG. He switched to a 0.008 blade. THINNER. MORE cushy ride. Then, he machined the blade to behave even WEAKER than stock.
RESULTS based tuning. He tests his NEW, super SAGGY setup at 20 yards. I told him about my sTRESS test, where you fire ONE arrow at YOUR training distance, and the GOAL is to STUFF that ONE arrow in the SAME hole.

BAM.



ONE arrow fired into the SAME HOLE, 21 times in a row, at 20 YARDS. Wow! Long story short. He won his age class, one week later at the Mid-West Open, 5 spot tournament.


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## travisd14 (Aug 25, 2014)

Excellent post Alan. I'll have to try all of that out. I'm currently running a .012 blade because as you said, heavy arrow so they recommend a heavy blade. Don't know many people into target around here so I've mostly been teaching myself off here. I'll turn the angle down a bit and try a 10 or maybe an 8 blade instead.


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## Randyz7 (Feb 5, 2011)

Ttt


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## GuntherChaconne (Mar 9, 2015)

Bookmarked. Thank you Allan. 

I'd like some information about buying a nuts and bolts dvd.


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

tagged


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

both angle and blade thickness can be tuned like you set up a target for creep tuning.....with a horizontal piece of tape on the target. shoot at the tape and keep record of your well executed shots for high and low impacts at the tape. high impacts mean either less angle(softer rebound) or a softer blade is needed and low impacts mean either more angle(harder rebound) or a stiffer blade is needed. any thickness blade can be tuned over a fairly wide range by making adjustments as N&B explains above.
remember that changing the blade angle also means changing the nock height. 
this tuning method is very good for fine tuning the blade after the right thickness is initially established by arrow weight, as well,....using just the "angle adjustment" part of this tuning procedure.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Blade rests are famous for the NOCK high bareshaft. It's cuz of the rebound effect. NOW, if you are only interested in shooting 300 on a 5 spot target, sure, the REBOUND effect will not hurt you and if you NEVER EVER shoot a bareshaft, you will NEVER see the rebound effect. BUT, if you want to boost your x-count, and you TEST your arrow flight, with a BARESHAFT, well, then you see the TIGHTNESS of your fletched arrow group, but you also see how NASTY the rebound effect can be, on a bareshaft.



THIS is probably the worst I have ever seen. This shows you the STEERING power of vanes. So, high angle blade is going to be TUNABLE, but not very forgiving. SO, STIFF blade is also TUnABLE, but again, for OBVIOUS reasons, the STIFFER blade gives you a BIGGER rebound reaction. WE can only tune to our skill level. For THIS guy, a 300 5 spot shooter, the 0.010 blade was OBVIOUSLY tunable, and he was shooting mid-level x-counts, and regular 300 pts, on the 5 spot. 

BLADE height is a big deal, and micro adjust is necessary, to shoot at the highest levels...300 60X. Cuz, for a BLADE rest, super tiny vertical adjustments have a large effect on your group size. So, if you go from 37 degrees blade angle, to 30 degrees blade angle..YUP, gotta reset your blade rest vertical position. I prefer to do this with the bow SIDEWAYS, so I can set the blade rest blade to touch a DEAD 90 degree arrow, to the riser. Bottom line...WHATEVER blade thickness FLOATS your boat, WHATEVER blade angle floats your boat...BOTTOM LINE, spends LOTS of time or spend a little bit of time, to FINE TUNE the blade rest HEIGHT, down to the thickness of a sheet of paper, when you MICRO adjust the BLADE arrow rest height.

The HIGHER you move the blade rest, the HARDER the arrow shaft BENDS into the blade...you are INCREASING shock absorber power to the BLADE.
The LOWER you move the blade rest, the SOFTER the arrow shaft BENDS into the blade...you are DECREASING shock absorber power to the BLADE.

I'm talking moving the BLADE rest UP 0.002-inches or moving the BLADE rest UP 0.004-inches. I'm talking moving the BLADE rest DOWN 0.002-inches or moving the BLADE REST down 0.004-inches. AWAY from the "proper" starting position. IF no matter WHAT you do to the BLADE rest vertical position, if you are ALWAYS getting a NOCK TAIL HIGH paper tear...you are OUTSIDE the tuning range of the BLADE REST...bLADE too thick...BLADE angle too steep....BLADE rest vertical position is WAY TOO HIGH or WAY too low.

THIS is what I mean by a BLADE rest is super PICKY about tuning. FIND the distance where YOU can fire ONE fletched arrow through the SAME HOLE, 30 times in a row. My email students can do it. Can you? If you are just an AVERAGE JOE, try 4 yards.



THIS is 2 yards. THIS is terrible. NOt the arrow rest. Shooter has no mental focus, and is just plain rushing through my FIRE one arrow thirty separate times, at the same aiming point.



Different shooter. THIS is more like it. FIRE one arrow again and again, total of thirty times, at the same aiming spot. ALL shots should go through the same hole. This is ONLY 2 yards. Well, if you are a blade shooter, you should be able to do this at 4 yards, in no time at all.



ONe of my more ADVANCED students. 6 yards. I told him the minimum goal was 100 shots through the same hole. To make it tougher, I told him to get to 100 shots over several days. DAY 1, he made to about 45 shots in a row, in the SAME hole. By DAY 2, he made it to 90 shots in a row, total. He didn't want to push his luck. On DAY 3, he nailed a total of 140 shots through the SAME hole.

YOu see how this works. Use my methods for BLADE rest setup. BLINDLY follow the manufacturer and use the 0.010 blade, cuz you are using 2712s and heavy points. Put a backer blade on to make your BLADE rest even MORE unforgiving. Go with ZERO SAG if that floats your boat. Use my method to dial in LOTS of SAG. THE FINAL TEST is to STUFF one arrow into the SAME exact HOLE, at whatever is YOUR personal max training distance. Maybe you can stuff 30 shots, with ONE arrow into the SAME hole only at 2 yards. HEY, we have to all start somewhere. Maybe you graduate to stuffing 30 shots, with ONE arrow into the SAME hole at 6 yards. THat's good shooting. BUT, championship level shooting.



ONE spot. ONE arrow. He fired 21 shots in a row in the SAME FREAKIN hole. This by flattening the blade angle, by switching to the 0.008 thick blade (ignoring the manufacturer recommendations), by modifying the blade to behave even WEAKER than stock, by tuning the HEIGHT of the blade rest down to the 0.002-inch level (less than the thickness of a sheet of paper) per adjustment, to find the TRUE sweet spot, for BLADE rest height. DO the detective work, do the training, whatever it takes to getting ONE arrow into the SAME hole, 21 shots in a row, working up to 30 shots in a row. NOT many can do ONE arrow hole accuracy at 20 yards. So, find YOUR training distance, and amaze yourself.


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## GuntherChaconne (Mar 9, 2015)

Nuts and Bolts dvd ordered. 

Thanks Alan,
Josh


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## GuntherChaconne (Mar 9, 2015)

Good price by the way.


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## travisd14 (Aug 25, 2014)

I've ordered one as well. If it's anything like what's in his posts I should learn a ton of good info.


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## SpeedStar (Aug 25, 2014)

Alan, I use a Hamskea top limb driven drop away with the rigid acculaunch arm. It is giving me good results but I wonder if using their spring steel arm either fixed or drop away would offer more benefits over my current setup? Do you have experience with this?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

SpeedStar said:


> Alan, I use a Hamskea top limb driven drop away with the rigid acculaunch arm. It is giving me good results but I wonder if using their spring steel arm either fixed or drop away would offer more benefits over my current setup? Do you have experience with this?


A drop away is a different system, completely. The Hamskea has the option to behave as a drop away. The Hamskea can also perform as a blade rest. In the end, you have to do the HARD work and see whether a drop away works better for you, whether a BLADE works better for you. The BLADE rest is SUPER PICKY, and when you finally figure it out, the results can be VERY good.


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## SpeedStar (Aug 25, 2014)

I was thinking of trying the spring steel blade but with the drop away mode so the blade would support the arrow for the first 5-6" of the stroke then drop.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

SpeedStar said:


> Alan, I use a Hamskea top limb driven drop away with the rigid acculaunch arm. It is giving me good results but I wonder if using their spring steel arm either fixed or drop away would offer more benefits over my current setup? Do you have experience with this?


Example. I use the VaporTrail LImbdriver drop away on the Maitland Zeus. 20 yd group with a drop away.



Another example. I have the DS Advantage Blade rest for my OK Archery DST 40. 20 yd group with a Blade rest.



Now, to be fair, the DST 40 is my primary bow, so I have the stabilizer system fully tuned, hence the tighter group.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

SpeedStar said:


> I was thinking of trying the spring steel blade but with the drop away mode so the blade would support the arrow for the first 5-6" of the stroke then drop.


Drop away rests are dead simple to tune. Blade rests take more time to tune. BOTH can give great results.


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## Sweet Seat (Apr 2, 2015)

Tagged, great right up.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> Drop away rests are dead simple to tune. Blade rests take more time to tune. BOTH can give great results.



Firstly i'd like to thanks you nutsnbolts for excellent advice. adjusting my blade changed my bow target bow, in to a really forgiving one, just by lowering the rest =0), so again thank you.

Hoping u can advise on rest contact i'm getting with 2315's 4" quikspins 190g point. 

using a 10 blade instead of manufacturers advised 12, at 30 degrees but had to lower it below berger/level to reduce vane contact. However the fletch is actually hitting my finger on release. Its very minor and doesn't hurt =0)

I only need to shoot 20yds with these arrows.

grouping is good but can't help feeling no contact would be better.

so, walk back, paper test, try 8 blade? or what would you recommend?

(compound bow, mechanical release)


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

Great information that helped me a lot.
I have a question though, in order to get rid of the nock high bare shaft with the blade rest I had to raise my rest to where my arrow is no longer perpendicular to the string. 
Should I use this as a starting point for group tuning or forget about getting rid of the nock high bare shaft set the arrow perpendicular to the string and start from there?


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

taz00 said:


> Great information that helped me a lot.
> I have a question though, in order to get rid of the nock high bare shaft with the blade rest I had to raise my rest to where my arrow is no longer perpendicular to the string.
> Should I use this as a starting point for group tuning or forget about getting rid of the nock high bare shaft set the arrow perpendicular to the string and start from there?


If I understand correctly, nutsnbolts is saying use a weaker blade to eliminate nock high bareshaft, aswell as reducing blade angle to 30 degrees, then micro adjust blade up/down. 

before I read this I was shooting rest above centre as this gave bullet hole, but not a forgiving set up.

I plan on slightly lowering my rest tomorrow to see if I can get rid of fletch contact, its actually level at moment. if I can't get it decent will have to try the 8 blade, but like I said fletches r already hitting my finger. doesn't seem to effect consistency or accuracy though???

Incidentally its only my large diameter indoor arrows that are contacting think as I have to use the wide blade. my skinny protours, no problems


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

I had to switch to the .008 blade to get rid of the nock high bare shaft. With the .010 blade I could not correct it no matter how I set the rest. I already have the blade at 30 degrees and if I go any lower I am afraid I will start getting fletching contact.
I have tried playing with the control cable without much change as far as the angle of the bare shaft is concerned.
The only thing that remains is trimming the blade.


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

Great explanation
Just a question...
what if I use a very stiff arrow (Easton 2312) compared to the bow (53 lbs/28" draw lenght) for indoor season (18 yards)?
same procedure for setup? Same concept of weak blade?

Thank you for your help


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> Firstly i'd like to thanks you nutsnbolts for excellent advice. adjusting my blade changed my bow target bow, in to a really forgiving one, just by lowering the rest =0), so again thank you.
> 
> Hoping u can advise on rest contact i'm getting with 2315's 4" quikspins 190g point.
> 
> ...


Tune your 0.010 blade to the best of your ability. Take a photo of your groups, with the 0.010 blade.

Then, try the 0.008 blade. I turn the bow sideways, and get the arrow rest height, adjusted so the arrow is 90 degrees to the bowstring, so the arrow is parallel to your target sight. LIKE THIS.



Since the target sight arm is exactly at 90 degrees to the riser, just swing the arrow dead PARALLEL to the target sight arm, with your bow SIDEWAYS on your table.

THEN, move the blade rest UP using your micro adjust knob, until the blade just KISSES the underside of the arrow. Blade angle set at 30 degrees. SUPER cushy. Cuz of the flat blade angle, cuz of the 0.008-inch thick blade. BLADE will SAG. No worries, cuz the VANES are designed to LIFT up the arrow point. From this STARTING position for the arrow rest, use your micro adjust knob to MOVE the blade rest UP or down...0.002-inches at a time. YES. LESS than the thickness of paper. Each vertical adjustment will either SHRINK or GROW your group size...depending on what direction you move the blade arrow rest. 

CAn you get a bareshaft to fly LEVEL, just like your fletched arrow? Using a Blade Rest? Absolutely.



BUT BUT BUT, the blade is SAGGING. Exactly. When you launch the arrow, the VANES will make the point of the arrow rise up to level arrow flight, if you are aiming at a shoulder height x-ring. Cuz we set the blade rest to touch the underside of your arrow, when the arrow is flying DEAD level...the blade will provide a TINY bit of support, just enough to shoot TIGHT groups. YOU WANT the blade to sag, when the riser is vertical. You MICRO adjust the blade rest UP 0.002-inches, you are providing a BIT MORE shock absorber power, to tune arrow flight. You MICRO adjust the BLADE rest down 0.002-inches, you are providing a TINY BIT LESS shock absorber power, to tune arrow flight.

I had to tune my BLADE rest 0.004-inches in the DOWN direction, to tighten up my groups at 20 yards. YUP. I had the blade rest SAG EVEN MORE...0.004-inches MORE SAG, to get this group.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MBT-IT said:


> Great explanation
> Just a question...
> what if I use a very stiff arrow (Easton 2312) compared to the bow (53 lbs/28" draw lenght) for indoor season (18 yards)?
> same procedure for setup? Same concept of weak blade?
> ...


Test it.

Example. This fella is shooting FAT carbon shafts. MASSIVELY stiff.



He USED to follow the manufacturer's recommendation, namely figure BLADE thickness based on arrow weight. So, he shoots 300s on the 5 spot target, and has a middling x-count. So, he shoots a bareshaft. BASED on the manufacturer's recommendation, he is using a 0.010 blade. BUT, the shooter wants to see if he can boost his x-count...MidWest Open tournament was only 1 week away.

So, he asks for some advice. I say go WEAKER, goto the 0.008 blade, and try 30 degrees. BUT BUT BUT, what about ARROW weight? I say, IGNORE arrow weight, and let's see if we can IMPROVE your RESULTS. Only two things can happen, when you switch to the 0.008 blade, and a 30 degree blade angle. Your results get worse. Your results get better. BE brave. TEST. Find out.

He did.

His OLD blade setup. Blade is the 0.010 size, just like the manufacturer recommends. See how STIFF his blade is? ZERO sag. BAD news. This was holding back his X-ring count.



ZERO sag with the 0.010 blade. THIS is bad. Holding him back. X-count stuck in the middle range.




Sooo, this fella learned that it's ALL ABOUT THE SAG. He switched to a 0.008 blade. THINNER. MORE cushy ride. Then, he machined the blade to behave even WEAKER than stock.
RESULTS based tuning. He tests his NEW, super SAGGY setup at 20 yards. I told him about my sTRESS test, where you fire ONE arrow at YOUR training distance, and the GOAL is to STUFF that ONE arrow in the SAME hole.

BAM.



ONE arrow fired into the SAME HOLE, 21 times in a row, at 20 YARDS. Wow!


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Test it.
> 
> Example. This fella is shooting FAT carbon shafts. MASSIVELY stiff.
> 
> ...


I'll surely try!
I was just asking if there are some special recomandations

Thank you very much


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

my main issue is fletch contact with my finger or knuckle, will not using the weaker 8 blade make this worse? don't want to change to lower profile fletch particulary as the quikspins work best for me. i'd also like to eliminate/reduce rest contact. 

blades cost me £9 over here (14$! )and just bought a new 10, i'm tight with money 0)


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

*SWITCH said:


> my main issue is fletch contact with my finger or knuckle, will not using the weaker 8 blade make this worse? don't want to change to lower profile fletch particulary as the quikspins work best for me. i'd also like to eliminate/reduce rest contact.
> 
> blades cost me £9 over here (14$! )and just a new 10, i'm tight with money 0)


It's more or less the same price in Italy. 9-10 € for a blade
In my humble opinion, the price is really high compared to the industrial cost of the item!


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

yup daylight robbery 

I should add that my groups are excellent despite hitting the rest AND my finger, its even quite forgiving, but if I can get it better....will update with findings 2morrow evening after shooting, 0)


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

taz00 said:


> Great information that helped me a lot.
> I have a question though, in order to get rid of the nock high bare shaft with the blade rest I had to raise my rest to where my arrow is no longer perpendicular to the string.
> Should I use this as a starting point for group tuning or forget about getting rid of the nock high bare shaft set the arrow perpendicular to the string and start from there?


Alan could you help with this?
I use a 0.008 blade and a regular d-loop (not a torque-less d-loop).
Should I start trimming the blade?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> Alan could you help with this?
> I use a 0.008 blade and a regular d-loop (not a torque-less d-loop).
> Should I start trimming the blade?


Pic of your 20 yard target with at LEAST three fletched arrows, and at least one bareshaft. Two bareshafts would be better. Need to see where the bareshafts are hitting the target...how much lower than the target points, in the 20 yard target.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

Will do. I may have to wait until next week though before I get to go back to the club.
In my basement I only have 11 yards and I shoot on a diy target stuffed with rags so it is not the best indicator for arrow angle.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

ok so, at 20yds

by lowering the 10 blade a micro amount at a time I reduced the blade contact to about a 4mm diagonal mark on the tip of the right prong. still hitting finger, but less.

further lowering didn't improve fletch contact on blade, but made finger contact worse.

micro adjustment of centre shot (closer to bow) improved things slightly, but still blade contact.

bare shaft was initially hitting left in the blue/black border on a 60cm face and 3" higher than fletched arrows.

now it is blue/black border (maybe a little closer) but slightly less than 1" above fletched arrows.

grouping and forgiveness slightly better.


think sposed to bare shaft at 10yds not 20 though?i know bareshat too far left can suggest too short a draw length

I may try the 8 blade at some point.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> ok so, at 20yds
> 
> by lowering the 10 blade a micro amount at a time I reduced the blade contact to about a 4mm diagonal mark on the tip of the right prong. still hitting finger, but less.
> 
> ...


YOu can double the length of your d-loop, if you are right handed. You can shorten the ATA of the bow, 1/8th inch or 1/4-inch to GROW the brace height of your bow, which will also grow your draw length, which will help with a bareshaft missing left of the bullseye. GOAL is to MOVE your RIGHT elbow, ELBOW LEFT...to force your elbow to SWING more behind your head, so your RIGHT forearm points in a NEW direction, when at full draw. SHOULDER is a ball joint, so TREAT your right shoulder joint as a DOOR HINGE. Gotta swing your DOOR, your right forearm/RIGHT elbow MORE clockwise..if the video cam is in a helicopter/drone, and the video cam is pointed STRAIGHT down at the top of your head.


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## dmoose66 (Jan 17, 2014)

tagged


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> YOu can double the length of your d-loop, if you are right handed. You can shorten the ATA of the bow, 1/8th inch or 1/4-inch to GROW the brace height of your bow, which will also grow your draw length, which will help with a bareshaft missing left of the bullseye. GOAL is to MOVE your RIGHT elbow, ELBOW LEFT...to force your elbow to SWING more behind your head, so your RIGHT forearm points in a NEW direction, when at full draw. SHOULDER is a ball joint, so TREAT your right shoulder joint as a DOOR HINGE. Gotta swing your DOOR, your right forearm/RIGHT elbow MORE clockwise..if the video cam is in a helicopter/drone, and the video cam is pointed STRAIGHT down at the top of your head.


ok, thanks for help, have recently lengthened dloop but will try longer one to see how it effects bare shaft at 10yds. 

do u deliver your dvd to the uk? or is it available for download?

cheers


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Pic of your 20 yard target with at LEAST three fletched arrows, and at least one bareshaft. Two bareshafts would be better. Need to see where the bareshafts are hitting the target...how much lower than the target points, in the 20 yard target.


Managed to drop by the club today.
Unfortunately the distance is 17yards. I only shot 1 group of 4 arrows on a single spot. I could not risk destroying another arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Can't see a thing.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Can't see a thing.


This should work now

Archery by Taz00, on Flickr


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## skidge (May 3, 2014)

alan's not gonna like that picture. Straighten your camera angle out so he see arrow angle and strip off the bases of those vanes. As an advocate for alan's advice you should purchase his dvd.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

I can understand the camera angle comment (although there is nothing I can do right now apart from doing it again the next time I go to the club).
Why should I strip the bases of the vanes? They do not provide any steering to the arrow and the keep some weight in the back of the arrow.

Alan's posts along with a few others have been of tremendous help to me. When I bought my bow I never ever could imagine how complicated tuning a bow is to the beginner. Without his guide and this site I would have been completely lost (even more than I am now).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> I can understand the camera angle comment (although there is nothing I can do right now apart from doing it again the next time I go to the club).
> Why should I strip the bases of the vanes? They do not provide any steering to the arrow and the keep some weight in the back of the arrow.


ZERO airflow disturbance. Strip the base of the vanes off, and try again.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> This should work now
> 
> Archery by Taz00, on Flickr


work the CAM un-sync, CHANGE the cam sync, and get the bareshaft to hit HIGHER. Fletched are hitting the x-ring height, or above. So, goal is to get the BArESHAFT (with NO vane base) to hit at LEAST at x-ring height. HERE is how I do it. LEVEL strip of tape. TOP edge of the tape through the x-ring. FLETCHED arrow. BARESHAFT with NO vane base. GOAL is exact matching height for point of impact, at 20 yards.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

My bottom cam stop hits almost at the same time as my top stop, maybe 1/16 after the top. If I twist the control cable 1/2 twist then the bottom will hit first. I can get the bareshaft to hit higher by raising the rest a little bit.
In my case which would be the preferred way?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> This should work now
> 
> Archery by Taz00, on Flickr


TYPICAL for a BLADE rebound reaction, to kick up the nock of the BARESHAFT...so the BARESHAFT hits LOWER than the fletched. WHEN you figure out a blade rest, your 20 yard groups will look more like mine.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

I have set the blade at 30 degrees and use a 0.008 thickness blade. Should I start trimming the blade to make it softer?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> My bottom cam stop hits almost at the same time as my top stop, maybe 1/16 after the top. If I twist the control cable 1/2 twist then the bottom will hit first. I can get the bareshaft to hit higher by raising the rest a little bit.
> In my case which would be the preferred way?


GEt the fletched groups at FLAT as possible, by working CAM UN-SYNC. RESULTS based tuning. FORGET what you THINK you know about cam UN SYNC. Play with the cam UN SYNC, both directions, add or remove enough half twists, until you get a DEAD flat group. WHAT is a DEAD flat group? THIS is a DEAD FLAT group.



FLAT like a pancake group, when you get your cam UN SYNC to YOUR personal sweet spot.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

Will do.
I think at this stage even with a perfectly tuned bow I lack the ability to produce groups like the one in your previous photo.
The bow right now produces decent groups that will allow me to focus on my form and my performance until I evolve enough to continue with the tuning.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> I have set the blade at 30 degrees and use a 0.008 thickness blade. Should I start trimming the blade to make it softer?


Try tied nocking points, and put a REALLY WIDE nocking point under the arrow nock, to increase DOWN pressure.



The wider the lower nocking point, the MORE you increase the down pressure. I had to goto a TORQUELESS loop, to put MAX down pressure, and to get DEAD parallel bareshaft arrow flight.





PAIN in the butt to make, cuz you really have to dial in the length. Took me 4 attempts, to get the Torqueless Loop length perfect. Group size changes, with Loop length.
NEXT PAIN in the butt for Torqueless Loop. GOTTA use nocks with REALLY long ears...or you will get nock PINCH off, and dry fire your bow, cuz of the severe string angle. FIX is to use Beiter Asymmetric nocks...the string groove is ANGLED forwards, in the nock. The TORQUELESS loop really gets rid of the NOCK high bareshaft flight, from BLADE rebound.

If you want to modify your 0.008 blade, to weaken it further, that could work.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

taz00 said:


> Will do.
> I think at this stage even with a perfectly tuned bow I lack the ability to produce groups like the one in your previous photo.
> The bow right now produces decent groups that will allow me to focus on my form and my performance until I evolve enough to continue with the tuning.


Keep working. YOu are on the right track. Tiny changes to the Blade Rest can have amazing results. I had to move the arrow rest (DS Advantage) down 0.004-inches, barely the thickness of a sheet of paper...the micro adjust is CLICK adjustable, like a sight. TWO clicks down, and my group size dropped in half.

Work with fletched, and tune for smallest group size. VANES have a great deal of steering correction power.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

I only have a nocking point on the bottom of the d-loop.
I just checked it and it seems the top of my d-loop had slid a bit down causing nock pinch.
I will first redo the test after I fix it and using your suggestions and come back.


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

Just for my information and acknoledgment...
why changing the D-loop lenght also changes the arrow grouping?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MBT-IT said:


> Just for my information and acknoledgment...
> why changing the D-loop lenght also changes the arrow grouping?


Angle of pulling force from release forearm in relation to the arrow. Think of your right forearm as a compass needle. If your arrow is pointing due north...then we can tune d-loop length longer and longer to swing your right elbow in a clockwise circle around your shoulder joint. Right shoulder is the door hinge. You can swing your right elbow more clockwise behind your head as we rebuild the d-loop longer and longer. We can swing your right elbow less and less clockwise behind your head as we go shorter and shorter. I rebuilt my Torqueless loop with FOUR differrent lengths to shrink my group size ss small as possible. How small do YOU want your groups?


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Angle of pulling force from release forearm in relation to the arrow. Think of your right forearm as a compass needle. If your arrow is pointing due north...then we can tune d-loop length longer and longer to swing your right elbow in a clockwise circle around your shoulder joint. Right shoulder is the door hinge. You can swing your right elbow more clockwise behind your head as we rebuild the d-loop longer and longer. We can swing your right elbow less and less clockwise behind your head as we go shorter and shorter. I rebuilt my Torqueless loop with FOUR differrent lengths to shrink my group size ss small as possible. How small do YOU want your groups?


gotcha !
thank you for your explanation


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

20yd group, 60cm face, red cross on left is bare shaft impact point. bare shaft nock end almost level. i'm happy with both of these. currently average 2 out of 3 in the inner 10. Want better.

Not happy with rest/occasional finger contact or forgiveness

will be shooting a 1/4" longer dloop today.

tried putting narrow blade bak on but can't keep the fat 2315 on it.

have also orderd some 3" feathers to try.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> View attachment 2970226
> 
> 
> 20yd group, 60cm face, red cross on left is bare shaft impact point. bare shaft nock end almost level. i'm happy with both of these. currently average 2 out of 3 in the inner 10. Want better.
> ...


Nice shooting. Depending on the ANGLE of your release hand...if you shoot with the palm of your release hand VERTICAL..thumb points straight down at the floor, the longer and longer d-loop will affect HIGH-LOW miss pattern. If you shoot with the palm of your release hand dead HORIZONTAL...the longer and longer d-loop will affect your LEFT-RIGHT miss pattern. Shoot your normal shot, and MAKE sure you pull FIRMLY into the wall of your bow, just like your "normal" shot process. As you go LONGER on the d-loop, make sure you fully SWING your elbow, your release elbow back as far as the new LONGER d-loop allows. Your RELEASE shoulder is a door hinge, and the LONGER d-loop is designed for a FULLER swing, a LARGER rotation of your entire RELEASE arm, around your door hinge, your RELEASE shoulder. I like to have my students DISTRACT themselves on purpose, especially when trying something NEW in your shot process. *REPEAT a nursery rhyme in your head, so YOU CANNOT over-think your shot process.* THIS way, with the NEW longer d-loop, just let your SHOT PROCESS FLOW automatically. Allow your body parts to naturally EVOLVE into a new shooting position, with NO THINKING on your part, cuz you are keeping your MIND BUSY, repeating that nursery rhyme again and again and again, and then, the SHOT just breaks, all by itself. THIS is just PART of my mental focus exercises.


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

Good thread.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> Nice shooting. Depending on the ANGLE of your release hand...if you shoot with the palm of your release hand VERTICAL..thumb points straight down at the floor, the longer and longer d-loop will affect HIGH-LOW miss pattern. If you shoot with the palm of your release hand dead HORIZONTAL...the longer and longer d-loop will affect your LEFT-RIGHT miss pattern. Shoot your normal shot, and MAKE sure you pull FIRMLY into the wall of your bow, just like your "normal" shot process. As you go LONGER on the d-loop, make sure you fully SWING your elbow, your release elbow back as far as the new LONGER d-loop allows. Your RELEASE shoulder is a door hinge, and the LONGER d-loop is designed for a FULLER swing, a LARGER rotation of your entire RELEASE arm, around your door hinge, your RELEASE shoulder. I like to have my students DISTRACT themselves on purpose, especially when trying something NEW in your shot process. *REPEAT a nursery rhyme in your head, so YOU CANNOT over-think your shot process.* THIS way, with the NEW longer d-loop, just let your SHOT PROCESS FLOW automatically. Allow your body parts to naturally EVOLVE into a new shooting position, with NO THINKING on your part, cuz you are keeping your MIND BUSY, repeating that nursery rhyme again and again and again, and then, the SHOT just breaks, all by itself. THIS is just PART of my mental focus exercises.


thanks, longer dloop was a success.

Immediately scope was more "locked" in position, never been so steady with so little float, and everything just feels a lot more comfortable.

I had considerable less tweaked shots because of this and forgiveness has also improved massively when I do tweak one.

Still getting minimal rest/finger contact despite rest height adjustments. Feathers may be the solution.

Interesting on the release, I shoot diagonal not quite vertical grip.

1" Dloop has largish tied nock point below arrow (similar to post 53 above) but very small one above. 

Can't thank you enough for help nuts&bolts, would never have tried such a long dloop otherwise, and continued to be frustrated with my short range shooting which has always lagged behind my WA1440 scores.

will post some pictures later groups/bareshaft

oh and will try the nursery rhyme thing except think i'll use rock/heavy metal tracks :beer:


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

20 yd groups on new face after about an hours shooting. Bare shaft now hitting above fletched group. But this rest position gave least contact and best overall performance.

Maybe Specialist has the shelf closer to berger hole than usual?, may explain contact with finger.

Or, ATA and brace are spot on, Module is set for 28" draw but measures just under 27.5". I have the cam peg in next longest hole as to regain very small valley. this could also be a cause of finger contact I suppose?

nock point is at most 1/32" above level.

























so 12 shots with 9 inner 10's, I was getting a little tired, not bad considering. tried some different nocks with bigger throat to see if they reduce contact issues. can't tell yet.

now practice, practice, practice =0) oh and will update when feathers arrive


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> 20 yd groups on new face after about an hours shooting. Bare shaft now hitting above fletched group. But this rest position gave least contact and best overall performance.
> 
> Maybe Specialist has the shelf closer to berger hole than usual?, may explain contact with finger.
> 
> ...


LEft-Right miss pattern is excellent (looking at the bottom pic, analyzing the bareshaft and fletched points of impact).
So, now, I would group tune your fletched arrows only....working the BLADE arrow rest, and tweaking the blade rest height, at the 0.002-inch adjustment amount. You should really consider the DS Advantage Blade rest, cuz the height and centershot adjustments are CLICK adjustable, and each click is 0.002-inches of movement. That's 1/512th of an inch per click. If you have a screw feed micro adjustment, or if you have NO micro adjustment, impossible for you to consistently move your arrow rest back and forth 1/512th of an inch, to FIND your sweet spot. A CLICK adjustable micro adjust for a BLADE makes it SOOOOOO easy to boost x-count, and fine tune the vertical height of your BLADE rest...which is where you are NOW at your tuning.

0.002-inch LESS than the thickness of a sheet of paper. Most folks do not believe that a BLADE rest is this picky, until they try it. Of course, this is for folks who are punching out the INNER 10 ring on the 40 cm target...3/4-inch groups at 20 yards.



LOOSEN the lock nut, for the entire tuning session. CAnnot be easier. Cuz the up-down micro knob is CLICK adjustable, you cannot lose your setting,
and just CLICK one click at a time, in the UP direction, or CLICK one click at a time, in the DOWN direction, to find your sweet spot and to SLAM all arrows into the INNER 10 ring.



CENTERSHOT is also CLICK adjustable at the 0.002-inch amount per click.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

looks like a good piece of kit for sure, i especially like the micro click adjustment and price is good comparitively.

the gears on my vbar unit have proved invaluable in setting up bars, as you always have a reference like you mention, so makes sense to have on rest too.

will put the DS on top of my list


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

ok feathers an improvement, reduced rest contact and importantly NO finger contact. plus feathers have less impact when they do hit rest compared to a plastic vane.

groups better especially on tweaked shots.

did notice vertical group was slightly worse though, a small turn in top limb sorted that out, 1 notch down on my side bar and bingo...rig is dialled in as good as I can get it, want to spend time just practicing now.

cheers


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> ok feathers an improvement, reduced rest contact and importantly NO finger contact. plus feathers have less impact when they do hit rest compared to a plastic vane.
> 
> groups better especially on tweaked shots.
> 
> ...


Excellent work. Keep us updated on your progress. Photos.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

2nd session with feathers. shot an x7 to see how it grouped with my xx75's. I got this answer....=0) this is with rest contact still. But all inner 10's









sorry for double pic dunno why its done it


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Nuts and Bolts, 

So lets say I spend 20 minutes with one of my bare shafts and I get my bow tuned to the point where it is shooting perfect bullet holes at 1 ft 3 ft 5 ft 6 ft 8 ft 12 ft 15 ft 20 ft 10 yds 15 yds 20 yds. So it is absolutely perfect arrow flight from the time it leaves the bow all the way to 20 yards, I then go outside and and just for kicks and grins I shoot a 12 ring with my fletched arrow and my bare shaft at 30 yards so it is hitting right with my fletched one.

If you would please explain to me what magical force must exist out there that would cause me to shoot even tighter groups by messing with my cables and changing my cam sync or timing or draw length and screw up the awesome arrow flight that I already had in my bow?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> 2nd session with feathers. shot an x7 to see how it grouped with my xx75's. I got this answer....=0) this is with rest contact still. But all inner 10's
> 
> View attachment 2999802
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT shooting.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Your style of tuning reminds me of back when I was trying to group tune my arrows before I had a hooter shooter, I would go out and shoot at 60 yards and turn the nocks and try and get them to group even tighter and then I would sometimes use a ram tester and index the shafts and fletch them accordingly and study their straightness and do all these things to try and gain confidence and of course going out and shooting some nice groups always helped to add to that confidence in my efforts to group tune my arrows. In the end though I still had to number them and have competition arrows that just seemed to hit better than the rest because something wasn't right, then once I got access to a hooter shooter I totally saw what was wrong, my arrows weren't group tuned at all.

To me this is the problem with basing almost all of a tuning method on accuracy, depending on the day what if you are shooting really freaking good and even though the arrow flight sucks you are hitting dead on over and over and you settle for that tune job. It had nothing to do with how well your bow was tuned and everything to do with the fact that you were executing really really good. 

What if your bow was actually in a perfect state but when you started shooting one of your drills to find tuning issues you weren't shooting very good and you start twisting and moving stuff and then once you warm up you then start shooting awesome with some bow setting that was worse than when you started but now you are executing really good and you now think the bow is better than when you started. 

That is why when I tune a bow I try and take my accuracy out of the equation, I just want to execute smoothly and achieve perfect arrow flight that the fletching doesn't have to hide any weird stuff, the fletching can just stabilize the perfect flight of the arrow nothing more or less.

I do believe that your bow should be in your hands so that your follow through and grip and execution of the shot are all there as you tune the bow, I don't tune my bow in a hooter shooter like I do group tune arrows with the hooter shooter.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a math teacher and this is what I do, I ask questions. I can still remember being in college and taking calc 1 for the first time and my professor introducing the concept that we are going to be able to calculate the surface area of a lake using limits and a infinite number of little rectangles on the inside of the perimeter of the lake and the outside of the lake and converging into the answer in the middle from both directions. You are darn right I was the kid raising my hand a lot that week, I am not bashing here on this thread. I want to see what you are trying to find or lead people to in the method and I just don't see it.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> Nuts and Bolts,
> 
> So lets say I spend 20 minutes with one of my bare shafts and I get my bow tuned to the point where it is shooting perfect bullet holes at 1 ft 3 ft 5 ft 6 ft 8 ft 12 ft 15 ft 20 ft 10 yds 15 yds 20 yds. So it is absolutely perfect arrow flight from the time it leaves the bow all the way to 20 yards, I then go outside and and just for kicks and grins I shoot a 12 ring with my fletched arrow and my bare shaft at 30 yards so it is hitting right with my fletched one.
> 
> If you would please explain to me what magical force must exist out there that would cause me to shoot even tighter groups by messing with my cables and changing my cam sync or timing or draw length and screw up the awesome arrow flight that I already had in my bow?


The way I do it, and this is just the approach that I've converged on. I try to null the good-day/bad-day thing out by looking for trends rather than react to only one or two results. That is, when I'm doing a rough-in on a bow after replacing a string or something like that, I'll do 3 or even 4 bare shafts into my foam bail and look at the general trend of the shaft. If I'm way off, they'll all obviously be knock-somewhere and it's easy to see what I'll have to adjust. 

But when it's really close, sometimes I'll have to do several ends with, say, 4 bare shafts, starting at say 10 yards and then moving back over time. On one end I might see 2 straight in, 1 a little knock high/left and the other a little knock left but level. Next end, 1 straight in, 3 a hair knock left, 4th eeever so slightly knock left... and so on.... That tells me that it's really good but, I could optimize the tune by, say, looking at my grip or moving the rest in a couple thousandths, etc. 

Then if I start getting ends like 2 straight in, 1 a hair knock right, 1 a hair knock left, that tells me the tune is basically down in the noise of just a bad shot. At that point, it's time to go out to the range and start comparing fletched and bare POI, etc, at longer distances.

Also, if the bareshaft is kind of all over, slinging it way knock high on one end, then good the next, then knock high again, that tells me it's a form issue and nothing to do with the bow. This trend method helps me diagnose things like that also.

DM


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I get your method, it is fine and you are evaluating what your arrow looks like based on nock left or right and you are trying to do several sessions where you see a average of your executions. Nuts and Bolts always talks about shrinking the group size and his tuning and many of his stress tests are all based on accuracy where you shrink that shooting over time and it is based on putting twists in the strings.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> I get your method, it is fine and you are evaluating what your arrow looks like based on nock left or right and you are trying to do several sessions where you see a average of your executions. Nuts and Bolts always talks about shrinking the group size and his tuning and many of his stress tests are all based on accuracy where you shrink that shooting over time and it is based on putting twists in the strings.


Well it's been my experience that a good bareshaft is almost completely positively correlated with tighter groups, for me. For example, I was out in no wind last week shooting at 30 yards. I was getting most of them in the gold and maybe one or two 8's here and there. So I took out one of my bareshafts to see what I had. It went knock high, landing low in about the 4 ring. So, "screwed" my D-loop down 2 turns on the center serving and did another bareshaft. This one now went knock-low landing above and to the right again about in the 4 ring. So screwed the D-loop up one turn - my last bareshaft when in the gold with the fletched. 

Next end I shot 4 bareshafts, 3 went in the gold and one was an 8/9 liner. Shot my fletched and i was busting the knocks off them in a teeny little group.

So to me, I guess it's just how you arrive at the tightest groups. I do it with the bareshaft just because that's what I'm used to and I know how it affects the groups. But I don't see any problem just adjusting for the tightest group and doing no other checks if that's how you get the result... I guess it's a 6 of one/half dozen of the other type of thing. 

But that's just how I see it,

DM


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I watch to many of our best pro shooters in videos a couple days before going to a big shoot get a new bow out of the box and they set it up in a matter of minutes to their normal settings and then they shoot a couple times through paper or something and then spend the next day or so sighting it in. That weekend they go compete.

I watched my buddy Sam who is a really good known 50 shooter and must have his bow dead on perfect to win a known 50 asa take a new hoyt edge elite (Not a Hoyt guy) out of the box on a thursday night at a indoor league and after we shot the league night he threw a d-loop on it and shot a few shots and tuned it to what I would consider a minimal tune job. I traveled with him that weekend to the asa and we left that night and friday morning when we got to the asa he sighted it in and won the team shoot and then won the weekend known 50 with it. Do I think his bow was perfectly tuned, no. Sam creep tunes his bows by hand at 20 yards and I know he didn't have time to do it this week but I also know that known 50 is beyond competitive and he has to hit over 50% of the 12's to win and he did just that. I do know that he didn't like the feel of that bow and sold it and went back to his pro comp xl's for the rest of the season.

Do I think he had decent arrow flight, sure. Do I think there is some magical twisting to reduce the grouping size, no I don't. 

I did mention Sam and his by hand Creep Tuning, this is something that I for a long time thought was one of these magical make believe subjects but watching him do it and then explain it allowed me to now understand it and use it myself. Creep tuning to me is where you set up and tune your bow perfectly to your best execution and once you are done you will have awesome arrow flight. Problem is that as the day or weekend goes on when competing you will draw into the wall differently as you get tired or maybe you get nervous or you are on some really poor footing. A bow that isn't creep tuned will shoot differently depending on how hard you pull into the wall so by advancing the top cam to hit before the bottom cam very slightly you can find a setting where it basically averages out your tune job so that your arrow will hit the same weather or not you are pulling in the wall really hard or sitting in the valley. In effect you have given up a little of your perfect tune job and averaged it out between pulling hard or pulling perfect or pulling light into the wall. Now to me this isn't magic at all and it is just adding forgiveness to your bow in a way that helps you compete at a high level.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dmacey said:


> The way I do it, and this is just the approach that I've converged on. I try to null the good-day/bad-day thing out by looking for trends rather than react to only one or two results. That is, when I'm doing a rough-in on a bow after replacing a string or something like that, I'll do 3 or even 4 bare shafts into my foam bail and look at the general trend of the shaft. If I'm way off, they'll all obviously be knock-somewhere and it's easy to see what I'll have to adjust.
> 
> But when it's really close, sometimes I'll have to do several ends with, say, 4 bare shafts, starting at say 10 yards and then moving back over time. On one end I might see 2 straight in, 1 a little knock high/left and the other a little knock left but level. Next end, 1 straight in, 3 a hair knock left, 4th eeever so slightly knock left... and so on.... That tells me that it's really good but, I could optimize the tune by, say, looking at my grip or moving the rest in a couple thousandths, etc.
> 
> ...


Trend analysis. Yup. Makes perfect sense. I always have folks tune their equipment first, to make the equipment as forgiving as possible. What does "forgiving" mean? It means that you tweak the bow for the absolute most repeatable performance. It's physics really. DIAL in the bow, in tiny amounts of changes, like tweaking/"MESSING" with the cables, to get the CAM UN SYNC perfect for you...you know, RESULTS based tuning...not just ONE bullet hole through some random piece of paper, at one test distance or 20 test distances...but, shooting full distance, with fletched arrows, and with bareshafts.

But, not firing ONE bareshaft...not firing even 3 fletched arrows...figure out the TREND, and fire LOTS and LOTS of arrows (your choice, fletched and/or bareshaft). Trend analysis. Repeat the test MANY MANY times, and get LOTS of data, and figure out the REAL performance envelope. This means, not firing ONE arrow through a sheet of paper, but this means shooting FULL DISTANCE, and see how many times you can get "acceptable" performance. If "acceptable" means a 9-inch group at 20 yards....well, shoot LOTS and LOTS of arrows, and see how many times you can STUFF your arrow into the 9-inch circle. Try for at least 30 shots. Fire one arrow thirty separate times, and if you can stuff the arrow inside the 9-inch ACCEPTABLE performance envelope, then...you have a TREND analysis test result, that says YOUR bow and YOUR form are meeting YOUR Quality Standard.

If your PERFORMANCE standard is the inner 10-ring....then, try ONE arrow fired thirty times, and see HOW many times you can hit your QUALITY threshold. NO magic. JUST plain old science. Test results. If you tweak your cables, and MESS with your cam UN SYNC, or "timing" or draw length, so you can get MORE and MORE of your 30 shots with ONE arrow into your PERFORMANCE threshold...then, DUH...this is RESULTS based testing. This is TREND analysis.



20 yards. Shooter is a 300 5 spot shooter, with a BLADE rest, and looking for BETTER, HIGHER x-count. So, he tried a BARESHAFT at full distance, 20 yards. Even though he shoots 300 scores on the 5 spot, the BARESHAFT tells him that there is ROOM for improvement, in the bow tuning. PROOF is in the pudding, the x-count. NOT bullet holes through a sheet of paper. You win a tournament, with the 300 score AND the highest x-count. Shoot as many bullet holes as you like, but still need the TREND analysis....the consistent, day after day, HIGHER x-count. NOt just shooting a higher x-count, ONE TIME..but doing it consistently. This is what a TREND is, boosting your x-count, HIGHER...consistently HIGHER. THIS means, the NEW better results continue to repeat day after day, week after week. TWeak the bow tuning, to the highest level you can..which means, GET BETTER FINAL results.

LIKE this.



FULL distance. 20 yards. ONE fletched arrow. Fired 21 times in a row, in the SAME EXACT hOLE. THIs is results based testing/tuning/training. PS. Fella won the MidWest Open last year, in his age class. He contacted me one week before the tournament, and I had him go a completely different direction, on BLADE rest tuning. We went weaker on the blade, and flattened the blade angle. DIALED in MUCH MUCH more sag. RESULTS beats a bullet hole any day of the week. A bullet hole is the START to tuning. Still gotta test the END results...you know, keep tuning to boost the x-count, HIGHER.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dmacey said:


> Well it's been my experience that a good bareshaft is almost completely positively correlated with tighter groups, for me. For example, I was out in no wind last week shooting at 30 yards. I was getting most of them in the gold and maybe one or two 8's here and there. So I took out one of my bareshafts to see what I had. It went knock high, landing low in about the 4 ring. So, "screwed" my D-loop down 2 turns on the center serving and did another bareshaft. This one now went knock-low landing above and to the right again about in the 4 ring. So screwed the D-loop up one turn - my last bareshaft when in the gold with the fletched.
> 
> Next end I shot 4 bareshafts, 3 went in the gold and one was an 8/9 liner. Shot my fletched and i was busting the knocks off them in a teeny little group.
> 
> ...


Group tuning. Excellent detective work. Bareshafts work like a magnifying glass, and show you what happens when you tweak things. As you discovered, moving the d-loop up a tiny bit, makes the bareshaft hit lower. Moving the d-loop up a tiny bit, makes the bareshaft hit higher. 

Play with the d-loop length, and that can fine tune your left-right points of impact. I like to go TOO LONG on the d-loop and tie a new d-loop DOUBLE length. Simple enough to cut off one molten ball, and make a new molten ball, and re-tie the d-loop. This way, you make the re-tied d-loop a little shorter, each time you re-tie the d-loop.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like your answer nuts and bolts, I thought it was very well explained.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

@ nutsnbolts cheers bro, don't mind robin hoods with cheap arrows now and again ;0)


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Yep agree. My problem, though, is I'm just not that good of a shot yet. So I need all the help I can get from the equipment to give me the most forgiving setup. I shoot a tension-style release and I _still_ do a creep tune on my bows. Even though I'm in the back wall at exactly the same poundage every single time no matter how tired lol because of the release, I'll still get out my old wrist strap and do a creep tune after I get a good bareshaft in normal tuning. 

Yeah I can still kinda sorta shoot a good group with a dodgy left-high arrow, but I just make more mistakes than a pro or even an intermediate level shooter. So to me, it's time well spent with the bareshafts and the foam bail at home getting it dialed in as close as I can. And I still carry 2 or 3 bareshafts with me even when I'm out at the range practicing, to verify my grip. I'll shoot one every so often to make sure I haven't slid into some habit or something lol....

DM


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Group tuning. Excellent detective work. Bareshafts work like a magnifying glass, and show you what happens when you tweak things. As you discovered, moving the d-loop up a tiny bit, makes the bareshaft hit lower. Moving the d-loop up a tiny bit, makes the bareshaft hit higher.
> 
> Play with the d-loop length, and that can fine tune your left-right points of impact. I like to go TOO LONG on the d-loop and tie a new d-loop DOUBLE length. Simple enough to cut off one molten ball, and make a new molten ball, and re-tie the d-loop. This way, you make the re-tied d-loop a little shorter, each time you re-tie the d-loop.


Oh yeah, if I had a penny for each failed old D loop I have lying around from optimizing the length for my bows.... I'd be a rich man. If that or the draw length is off, I usually can see it in variation in the bareshaft. If it's too short or too long, the shaft will be kind of all over the place. One straight in, one way knock high, one straight in, another a little off... next end, a wild knock high-right, 2 good ones, one a little knock left... etc.... 

A consistent bare shaft tells me about draw length and D loop length. If they all go into the bale within my "tolerance", it's right or close enough to it....

DM


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

i'm going to re-visit bareshaft tuning, now I have better clearance/different fletchings. quickspins hit lower than bareshaft last time i tried so will be interesting to see if feathers are any different. to be clear

i move nock point up for high bareshaft? 

test at 10yds or 20yds?

what tolerance should i be aiming for at 20yds, same impact point or close?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I differ from you guys on that one also, for example this winter I decided to shoot with a longer draw length setting for a couple reasons but I put my bow in the draw board and used the press and changed the mod settings and got the new longer draw length that I wanted. Then I did something really cool, I tuned my bow to shoot the same awesome arrow flight that I had when I had my bow set up with a shorter draw length. I realize that Nuts and Bolts has one aspect of his tuning where you change draw length and d-loop length and you evaluate your point of impact or group size or nock left or right, I just tune my bow to the setting that I want to shoot with to be really good and don't let a incorrect draw length not allow me to have good arrow flight.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> I differ from you guys on that one also, for example this winter I decided to shoot with a longer draw length setting for a couple reasons but I put my bow in the draw board and used the press and changed the mod settings and got the new longer draw length that I wanted. Then I did something really cool, I tuned my bow to shoot the same awesome arrow flight that I had when I had my bow set up with a shorter draw length. I realize that Nuts and Bolts has one aspect of his tuning where you change draw length and d-loop length and you evaluate your point of impact or group size or nock left or right, I just tune my bow to the setting that I want to shoot with to be really good and don't let a incorrect draw length not allow me to have good arrow flight.


Well all my comments having been said, I think this is a good point. I've said before that the neat thing about the compound is how well you can shoot it with different forms. Especially if you have physical limitations it can accommodate all kinds of different techniques. That may be remarkable to me only because I come from olympic style recurve, which is extremely unforgiving of "non-standard" form. You can't even loose an arrow on the recurve if you don't have a good "T" form (or are just a very dedicated archer) or something close to it. 

Still, even the compound bow will penalize you somewhat if your form isn't optimal for you. I shot my compound with a 28" draw length for some years and really didn't do too bad. But after an injury and just wanting to get better, I revisited the form I was using this past spring. At the end of it, my draw length has gone to just over 29.5" and my groups have really shrunk noticeably. I even took 2nd in a local tournament this summer, and I don't think I've ever placed in any tournament prior to that time in over 20 years of shooting lol... 

So I think N&B is right to suggest optimizing draw length and D loop length. We can get away with a lot on the compound, but every little bit still helps.

DM


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

maybe i'm saying bull****s, but...
I've made a quick test with the tuning suggested by Nuts&Bolts. Changed the angle of the blade, made an "Horizontal" tuning (kitchen table and dvd boxes method), created a longer P-Loop.
First results seems quite satisfying but I noticed one thing
I'm using a target sight 
With the old setup I could use the same sight point from 5 to 20 meters. The difference in terms of height of the impact point is negligible.
With the new setup... things change in a strange way. I have to use a different sight height between these distances and the strange thing is that I need to raise up the sight increasing the distance. It seems like the arrow flights upwards instead of downwards...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MBT-IT said:


> maybe i'm saying bull****s, but...
> I've made a quick test with the tuning suggested by Nuts&Bolts. Changed the angle of the blade, made an "Horizontal" tuning (kitchen table and dvd boxes method), created a longer P-Loop.
> First results seems quite satisfying but I noticed one thing
> I'm using a target sight
> ...


Now, I'm not saying BS, but...CLOSE RANGE sight marks...2 yard sight mark, 3 yard sight mark, 4 yard sight mark are NEVER flat. IT's called parallax. That means, your EYEBALL is higher than where you set your NOCK on the side of your head.
Here are my sight marks from 3 yards to 20 yards to 60 yards.

*2 yards = 74+8 clicks....60 yards = 73+4 clicks
5 yards = 41+7 clicks........28 yards = 41+11 clicks
7 yards = 34+13 clicks......19 yards = 34+5 clicks*

10 yards = 30+12 clicks
20 yards = 35+0 clicks
30 yards = 43+6 clicks
40 yards = 52+16 clicks
50 yards = 62+16 clicks

*60 yards = 73+4 clicks*

NOTICE, that the 2 yard sight mark and the 60 yard sight mark are the SAME. Depending on draw length, somewhere between 2 and 3 yards, and the 60 yard sight mark, will match. THIS is normal for most Humans.

Now, if you want to get super TECHNICAL....

9 yards = 31+10 clicks
10 yards = 30+12 clicks
11 yards = 30+9 clicks
12 yards = 30+12 clicks
13 yards = 30+18 clicks
14 yards = 31+6 clicks

So, MY sight marks are DEAD FLAT between 9 yards to 14 yards. So, like I said..not calling BS, but 5 meters to 20 meters, the EXACT same sight marks...unusual, but kinda depends how "FLAT" you define the same sight mark.


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## MBT-IT (Oct 5, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Now, I'm not saying BS, but...CLOSE RANGE sight marks...2 yard sight mark, 3 yard sight mark, 4 yard sight mark are NEVER flat. IT's called parallax. That means, your EYEBALL is higher than where you set your NOCK on the side of your head.


now I understand. Thank you



nuts&bolts said:


> So, MY sight marks are DEAD FLAT between 9 yards to 14 yards. So, like I said..not calling BS, but 5 meters to 20 meters, the EXACT same sight marks...unusual, but kinda depends how "FLAT" you define the same sight mark.


Probably neither mine was dead flat. Simply I used the same sight mark without big issues. Now I need to reconsider my old convinvtions


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## oglebuck (Aug 15, 2005)

Tagged


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Been a while (injured) but I finally got to do some testing with wide 8 blade, and can confirm that it has improved my groups/consistency again. As it did when I switched from the 12 to the 10. Even the bow sounds feels/better on release. This has been a great productive thread that has hands down improved my bows and in turn my performance, so thanks again guys especially NUTS&BOLTS, YOU DA MAN.

I noticed what looks like some sort of shiny red material on your grip nuts&bolts, looks like hand would slip? benefits of it if you don't mind sharing more priceless info 0)


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## shootahoyt77 (Sep 26, 2014)

Tag for later


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

tagged


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## lhitch1 (Jan 29, 2012)

Tagged


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## mmeadow (Jun 29, 2016)

Tt

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G730A using Tapatalk


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## pastprime (Mar 4, 2015)

tagged


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Tagged


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Putting my SH Edge Swap on for weekend shooting tonight.
Read this thread over and over and looking forward to results.

Thank you Nuts&Bolts.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Alan,
looking for some advice.
Took several shots with my blade Saturday. Bareshaft (Cleaned, no vane left at all) and I simply could not get rid of a slightly high and left tear.
I'm shooting a 375 Grain, Superdrive 25, 28.75 carbon to carbon, 100 Grain nockbuster tip.
I got lots of sag. On the rest and at brace, the arrow is dead center with the berger hole. Centershot is between 7/8 and 13/16.

I believe I need to do two things, and I apologize for not taking pictures.

I know the rest was as close to a 30 degree angle as possible by eye using a piece of paper 1 by 1.75 as you said.
I moved the rest up and down, left and right considerably with little to no change.

I believe I need to lower the angle of the blade more than the micro adjust can do for me. Possibly 2-5 degrees, micro adjust from there.

Once I get a level bare shaft, work on left to right.

I am shooting at 10 yards, FYI. And the target/POI is probably mid-torso high, not shoulder level. Is that ok that it is lower than shoulder height?
Thank you.

**EDIT** I think I may have answered my own question. If you look at this pic of full draw in my basement, the tip if the arrow is considerable higher than level with the berger hole. So lower blade AND less angle I think.


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## ChadD. (Aug 23, 2014)

Gonna keep an eye on this one.


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## ATomer (Jul 6, 2015)

Tagged


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Tagged need more time to read.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dajogejr said:


> Alan,
> looking for some advice.
> Took several shots with my blade Saturday. Bareshaft (Cleaned, no vane left at all) and I simply could not get rid of a slightly high and left tear.
> 
> ...


Yup. You have the blade rest elevation SKY HIGH. Green Box is the arrow rest body. Berger hole would be at the green rectangle midline. Arrow point is not anywhere near Green Box (blade rest body) midline, so point of arrow is way above berger hole centerline.


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## wilkinsonk (Nov 23, 2014)

Don't we also need to address that very high nock point? Looks like it is at least 1/4 high. Lowering the rest/blade height will only make that more apparent. 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

wilkinsonk said:


> Don't we also need to address that very high nock point? Looks like it is at least 1/4 high. Lowering the rest/blade height will only make that more apparent.
> 
> Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk


At full draw, the cam SYNC will DRIVE the nock point UP, depending on how far ahead, he has the top cam hit full draw before the bottom cam hits full draw.


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## Cnilles (Aug 16, 2016)

Tag


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## Fernlicht (Mar 14, 2021)

Also tagged, very interesting since I’m struggling with nock high on bareshaft


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