# hoyt prodigy



## bobnikon

Limb alignment dowel looks... interesting on the prodigy. Wonder if it will carry over to whatever they call the new ilf line.


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## bobnikon

Low, medium, and higher rest/plunger/clicker plate setting?


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## bobnikon

So essentially they have added a couple gizmos and renamed the hpx and ionx?


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## Last_Bastion

Yeah. Trying to find out what is so "revolutionary" about it.


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## acco205

There may have been a geometry change as well.


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## bobnikon

acco205 said:


> There may have been a geometry change as well.


It says "with proven award winning geometry" so I am guessing ionx/hpx geometry.


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## bobnikon

Still no ILF... doh!


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## acco205

bobnikon said:


> It says "with proven award winning geometry" so I am guessing ionx/hpx geometry.


Yeah, but I can hope...


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## anmactire

bobnikon said:


> Still no ILF... doh!


I don't expect another ILF offering from Hoyt for a while myself. Nice looking risers, shame about the limb fit!


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## lksseven

bobnikon said:


> It says "with proven award winning geometry" so I am guessing ionx/hpx geometry.


Notwithstanding that Brady swapped back to his FRX for his WorldCup victory a month ago, didn't he?


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## Cylosis

Mirrors of images from Hoyt fb post:










Brown confirmed to add 26.75 FPS regardless of draw weight.



















Looks like new Pro Tiller Bolt colours? Yes please!

Also, from reading comments on the facebook posts, and Hoyt's replies, it looks like Stealth Shots will be not only compatible but also mountable without the angled washers.


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## MickeyBisco

What's with the added struts? The open limb bridge was the only thing I liked about Formulas.


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## Anarchist_Otter

God, it comes in a tec and non tec configuration. My wallet may hurt by the end of this next year...


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## Anarchist_Otter

MickeyBisco said:


> What's with the added struts? The open limb bridge was the only thing I liked about Formulas.


Maybe improve the torsional stability of the limb pocket during the shot?


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## MickeyBisco

Anarchist_Otter said:


> Maybe improve the torsional stability of the limb pocket during the shot?


I get the idea, but that suggests a need, and that it was unstable for the last 3 risers released.


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## Cylosis

MickeyBisco said:


> I get the idea, but that suggests a need, and that it was unstable for the last 3 risers released.


Which is funny given that Hoyt seemed quite proud of the lack of limb pocket in the Formula bows.

I think it may be to compensate for the amount of material they removed from the banana past the tiller bolts. (Which I feel is the only _aesthetic_ improvement that these risers have over the HPX/IONX.


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## limbwalker

Nice improvement on the alignment dowel. Long overdue.


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## Arsi

With that tilt-a-whirl (thats what im calling it...) addon to the dowels instead of a built in feature of the riser, I wonder if we could just buy the dowels separate and mate them to whatever other Hoyt risers that use alignment dowels.


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## limbwalker

Arsi, that's a good question. And I like your term for it. ha, ha. Those brass spacers were a royal PITA.


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## texaschef

When do these start to ship? Being that used is my price range, I'm hoping to score a deal on an HPX/Ion-X.


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## Drowsy

Arsi, I'm really hoping for the same thing too, but what are the chances Hoyt will let us take something new and put it on something old? That aside, I would pay a decent amount of money for a pair of those new limb dowels.


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## jaredjms

It's pretty ironic that 7 minutes after the Hoyt Facebook post I noticed that my lower limb on my ionx/f7 limb was slightly twisted-- time for a new toy...I mean bow! Texaschef, I'll be selling a 27"rh red fusion ion when my new prodigy comes


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## Arsi

Drowsy said:


> Arsi, I'm really hoping for the same thing too, but what are the chances Hoyt will let us take something new and put it on something old? That aside, I would pay a decent amount of money for a pair of those new limb dowels.


The chances are pretty good. They did it with the floating limb bolts. Yep I know the floating limb bolts were around for a while before Hoyt did it, but they started selling those by themselves for a premium, along with packaging them with the new production GMX's saying it was a new upgrade. The dowels look very similar to the dimensions of a regular dowel.


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## rstgyx

Any idea when the catalogue comes out?

The Prodigy looks like they let a 10 year old loose on the design scheme and they added more holes/gaps and some extra 'wings'.


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## ThomVis

How does that elongated clicker strike plate get fixed to the bow? I like the idea that you can scrape the remains of the arrow rest sticker off when the plate is not on the bow, so you stand no chance of damaging it. But if it can come loose on competition day........


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## bobnikon

rstgyx said:


> Any idea when the catalogue comes out?
> 
> The Prodigy looks like they let a 10 year old loose on the design scheme and they added more holes/gaps and some extra 'wings'.


I thought I saw somewhere that the catalog would be online on Thursday.

As for old is new, lets see, moveable rest/plunger plate... GM TD4 anyone? They just made it longer to incorporate the clicker.


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## rkumetz

ThomVis said:


> How does that elongated clicker strike plate get fixed to the bow? I like the idea that you can scrape the remains of the arrow rest sticker off when the plate is not on the bow, so you stand no chance of damaging it. But if it can come loose on competition day........


Assuming that the rest/clicker extension plate is mounted with (a) screw(s) so that it can repeatably be attached at the same position that is a great idea.
Not only will you not be scraping rest goop off your riser but you can have more than one plate with rest's set up for different arrows (eg big indoor arrows and tiny carbon needles for outdoors)

If the mounting method doesn't allow repeatable placement then it defeats the utility of the concept.


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## SBills

I am surprised that the catalog pictures don’t show or promote the stealth shot string dampeners Hoyt pushed so hard last year. Nothing I have seen in the pictures released even mentions them.


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## Drowsy

Arsi I hope you're right. I'm this close to taking a file to my string grooves...


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## GoldArcher403

Looks mad heavy like the ion-x. Not a fan of tec bars. Don't get how they improve performance other than adding riser weight.


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## GoldArcher403

rjbishop said:


> Looks mad heavy like the ion-x. Not a fan of tec bars. Don't get how they improve performance other than adding riser weight.


I stand corrected. Hoyt labels it as a 2.7 lb. riser on their site.


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## nifty

Looks pretty good... Don't know about the clicker plate myself. Formula risers look bulky to me but then again so do some ILF risers.
Like the new limb pockets and dowel system, makes the limb and riser connection look more " bonded"


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## zal

Doesn't float my boat. Visually don't like the added struts to the pockets and the clicker plate is just fugly.

Do like the brown colour though, I have one "bronze" Radian as a hobby bow at the cabin, and that looks quite similar.


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## rstgyx

Some extra information on the Vertatune plate.


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## SBills

Ahhh so you can adjust the plunger height up and down (depending on the plate) as well as leave a stick on rest for indoor or outdoor and swap this along with a plunger. It would be a very efficient way to fix a rest failure quickly and exactly. Not a bad idea at all.

So did stealth shots get outlawed? There is zero mention of them in the catalog that I could find. Seems strange as Hoyt was pushing them pretty aggressively in social media this year.


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## rstgyx

Another picture










I'm getting the pictures from http://archerreports.org/ as they are updating pretty frequently even though it's all in Japanese.


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## Matt Z

The VertaTune could offer quick swap-outs of an already tuned rest and plunger setup. Only adjustment would be knocking point, but could be swapped out with another string.

The Prodigy is Stealth Shot compatible and does not require the washers previously used.

*disclaimer: I've never used the Stealth Shot system, so not sure what the washer comment is referring to, just remember reading that on a social feed.


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## Cylosis

Matt Z said:


> The Prodigy is Stealth Shot compatible and does not require the washers previously used.
> 
> *disclaimer: I've never used the Stealth Shot system, so not sure what the washer comment is referring to, just remember reading that on a social feed.


The Stealth Shots come with tapered washers for a flat connection between the riser and SS as the threads (same hole as the tiller bolts, the thread sizes changes halfway) do not breach the riser at 90 degrees. The gray bit seen here: http://www.archery-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8533&d=1389177001

The IONX only needs one on the top SS but the Prodigy not needing them at all is great as they are tedious to mount every time.


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## kshet26

rstgyx said:


> Another picture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting the pictures from http://archerreports.org/ as they are updating pretty frequently even though it's all in Japanese.


This should be able to help align limbs/risers that are slightly twisted. Now they need a limb bolt that has lateral movement adjustment... or just get straight limbs and riser.


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## rkumetz

zal said:


> Doesn't float my boat. Visually don't like the added struts to the pockets and the clicker plate is just fugly.


I gather by the weight that they needed to take some "meat" out of the riser somewhere to get the weight down. Those "strut" like things at the end
would probably add some strength the the limb attachment area so that some material could be taken off the end of the riser.


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## Borja1300

SBills said:


> So did stealth shots get outlawed? There is zero mention of them in the catalog that I could find. Seems strange as Hoyt was pushing them pretty aggressively in social media this year.


Page 43.


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## theminoritydude

Prodigy's price? On par with ion-x? More expensive?


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## acco205

Looks like its available at LAS now. $779.

Who's going to be the guinea pig?


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## rkumetz

0 in stock.


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## caspian

MickeyBisco said:


> I get the idea, but that suggests a need, and that it was unstable for the last 3 risers released.


or maybe that they decided to hang a bit of metal out in midair with a few mill cuts underneath it to look cool.

which pretty much describes the formula limb pocket system, and the difference it makes, too.


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## bobnikon

Anybody else envision those "riser adjustment studs" or at least the teflon caps, which I presume must be removeable to screw in the stud, popping out?


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## DK Lieu

bobnikon said:


> Anybody else envision those "riser adjustment studs" or at least the teflon caps, which I presume must be removeable to screw in the stud, popping out?


I'm glad you brought this up. I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned this yet, since it was one of the first things that I noticed. Those adjustment studs are apparently there to compensate for any initial twist of the limbs. This is the first riser I've seen with this adjustment. Usually the only limb adjustments are for tiller/weight and for lateral alignment.


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## theminoritydude

I didn't bother with them because I've already had an answer to that problem. But if they solve the same problem, it will be one more good news anyway.


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## bobnikon

theminoritydude said:


> I didn't bother with them because I've already had an answer to that problem. But if they solve the same problem, it will be one more good news anyway.


Who are you? Apparently the most brilliant and prolific inventor in archery. How about shedding some light instead of all these vague allusions to great advancements???


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## Seattlepop

*It looks like you can reach the studs from the back...*

From the manual, bold added:

"PRO SERIES LIMB ADJUSTMENT DOWELS
Hoyt's Pro Series Limb Adjustment Dowels allows an archer
to adjust each limb to be perfectly balanced throughout the
entire draw cycle.
Condition 1. String your bow and pay attention to the limb
tips. If the limb tips are sitting in the middle of the limb then no
adjustment is needed. (See condition 1.)
Condition 2. Unstring your bow and remove your limbs (See
page 15). If your limb tip is to the right, remove one or possibly
two shims from the left stud and place them under the
right stud. This will move the limb tip to the center of the limb.
T*o remove the adjustment stud simply place the allen wrench
through the hole in the back of the riser and unscrew, counter
clockwise, until the adjustment stud is completely removed
from the dowel. Remove the shims as needed, and place on
the opposite adjustment stud. Replace both adjustment studs
back into the dowel and secure them with the allen wrench.*
Note: do not over tighten. Over tightening the adjustment
screws can cause the adjustment studs to become fixed into
the dowel and yielding the adjustment system unusable.
Condition 3. Unstring your bow and remove your limbs (See
page 15). If your limb tip is to the left, remove one or possibly
two shims from the right stud and place them on the left stud.
This will move the limb tip to the center of the limb.
The shims are 0.005” thick. You should never place more than
5 shims on one adjustment stud. Placing more than 5 shims
on one side could cause the limb to not fully engage into the
dovetail dowel detent."

An innovation, but the instructions appear to suggest adding twist to the limb as part of the alignment process, where previously the dowel shims were used for conditions 2 and 3. The manual now uses the dowel shims for string alignment:

"...4. If the bow string lines up with
the center line, your dowels are
properly aligned. If you notice
conditions A or B, proceed with
the following directions...."


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## kshet26

We're almost there... to truely have a system that allows for total limb alignment you need this new system, the dowels, and a limb bolt that move like the dowels (you can also file the limb dovetails).


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## theminoritydude

kshet26 said:


> We're almost there... to truely have a system that allows for total limb alignment .... (you can also file the limb dovetails).


What is total limb alignment?


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## Vittorio

DK Lieu said:


> I'm glad you brought this up. I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned this yet, since it was one of the first things that I noticed. Those adjustment studs are apparently there to compensate for any initial twist of the limbs. This is the first riser I've seen with this adjustment. Usually the only limb adjustments are for tiller/weight and for lateral alignment.


First riser I have seen with 3D axis adjustement for limbs has been designed (and patented too, I think) by Dynamic Sign Archery from Germany. They have shown it in Nimes in 2014 during World Indoor Championships and you can find some pictures on their Facebook page. In their solution, pure ILF, the entire limbs plane moves by two back grains, and the limbs bolts tilt too , to follow. I have considered a similar solution for the GILLO, but apart from the mechanical complication and additional cost involved, the question was "why to do it". Frankly, limbs are usually not so much twisted, while risers are more critical from this point of view. So a good riser with reasonably parallel limbs pockets planes does not need even lateral adjustement, and the Zenit has been in the market for so many years already without any sort of it, with no problems at all. But, market wants "limbs" alignemnt system on risers, so we made it even if in the original Gillo G1 design it was not present. A pure waste of money, in my opinion, but we have had to follow market demand. Third axis will surely help to align twisted risers, but if limbs are twisted, no way you will get a good shot out of them twisting them opposite between fork and dovetail. Third axis addition to work properly on limbs needs also floating limbs bolts, and this is the really complicated part on it. Anyhow, while no one has noted the existence of the Dynamic Sign Bow up to now, surely everyone will start to consider this feature as "needed" because Hoyt has introduced it, so may be in in the next years we wil see more and more risers with 3rd axis adjustement. As usual, market demand only will decide, at the end ...


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## theminoritydude

bobnikon said:


> Who are you? Apparently the most brilliant and prolific inventor in archery. How about shedding some light instead of all these vague allusions to great advancements???


But I have done that already. My friends are currently benefitting from not hitting their bow arms with the string. At no extra charge, no extra parts, and no noticeable difference for anyone observing to pick on......


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## theminoritydude

I think Virttorio makes a valid point about having unnecessary adjustment options. Sure they are nice; aesthetically nice. I often ask my friends what is nicer than a nice looking symmetrical system, and the answer is most often "a better score". Having the limb and string seemingly running "straight", isn't everything. In fact, most of the time, it shouldn't. It's been mentioned a couple of times before on the forum; the conventional recurve riser is not symmetrical, and having the string "in-plane" doesn't compensate for that, and that's not even taking into account how we have yet clearly defined that plane.


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## Joe T

theminoritydude said:


> But I have done that already. My friends are currently benefitting from not hitting their bow arms with the string. At no extra charge, no extra parts, and no noticeable difference for anyone observing to pick on......


All it needs is a bit of lateral thinking 









For 95% of archers all these alignment gizzmo's are just creators of problems that would not exist if the gizzmo didn't exist.


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## Mika Savola

3rd axis adjustment is something I have waited for years. For example, my G3 limbs are twisted so that nothing helped with the regular alignment, until I put some shims on the left side of the upper limb butt...


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## Vittorio

Mika Savola said:


> 3rd axis adjustment is something I have waited for years. For example, my G3 limbs are twisted so that nothing helped with the regular alignment, until I put some shims on the left side of the upper limb butt...


Are you sure the problem was showing same on different risers? Just curiosity. I have filed or put shims on several risers pockets in my life, but usually it was because of the riser, not beacuse of the limbs. For limbs, it happened several times I had to file the string grove angles on side of the tips, to avoid twisting , and even more times to file the fork to allow extraction from the bolt, but may be once only the back pocket of one limb ...


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## theminoritydude

Mika Savola said:


> 3rd axis adjustment is something I have waited for years. For example, my G3 limbs are twisted so that nothing helped with the regular alignment, until I put some shims on the left side of the upper limb butt...


So, what was the result of a twisted limb? Before and after the shims were added? What was the difference in performance?


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## Mika Savola

Vittorio said:


> Are you sure the problem was showing same on different risers? Just curiosity.


Yes it was showing the same. First with my Hoyt Nexus and then later on my SF Forged +


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## Mika Savola

theminoritydude said:


> So, what was the result of a twisted limb? Before and after the shims were added? What was the difference in performance?


With shims I could get the upper limb bend straighter, and the string not popping up to the side of the string groove. That could not be corrected before. Excess noise and lateral vibration at release disappeared


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## theminoritydude

Did it group better after that?


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## Mika Savola

Yes


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## theminoritydude

So with the new dowel system of the prodigy, you won't have to use shims anymore, provided the dowel could be used on your current bow.


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## Hoogie2004

After looking at almost every bow on our club, i noticed almost all bows there have some sort of alignment issue with the limbs (the kind of alignment we can fix with the new system on the Prodigy). But on the other side, unless you are shooting at a really high level, i don't think you would notice. It could be the difference for shooters that shoot 9.5 avg. and up, and even then it might be questionable.

I ordered a 27" Prodigy XT in Silver Ice, and can't wait for it to arrive. Shop said 2-4 weeks from now. Currently shooting a Formula RX with Quattro (foam) limbs, got a very good offer for handle & limbs and decided to upgrade. Really looking forward to it. 

I am also going to try the Stealth Shot system on the new handle, but what surprises me a bit is that the Prodigy is Stealth Shot compatible, but there are 0 images of a Prodigy with the Stealth Shots. Seems like Hoyt is not wanting to push the Stealth Shot that much anymore.


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## Matt Z

Hoogie2004 said:


> unless you are shooting at a really high level, i don't think you would notice


I think this can be said with the majority of technology implemented in the industry...



Hoogie2004 said:


> what surprises me a bit is that the Prodigy is Stealth Shot compatible, but there are 0 images of a Prodigy with the Stealth Shots


I know a few top level archers promote them, but I've always assumed the novice archer would benefit the most from Stealth Shots. I would also consider the Prodigy to not be a novice riser?


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## Hoogie2004

Matt Z said:


> I think this can be said with the majority of technology implemented in the industry...


Correct


Matt Z said:


> I know a few top level archers promote them, but I've always assumed the novice archer would benefit the most from Stealth Shots. I would also consider the Prodigy to not be a novice riser?


That could be the case, but if that is true, why is there no entry level riser with Stealth Shot compatibility?


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## Matt Z

Hoogie2004 said:


> That could be the case, but if that is true, why is there no entry level riser with Stealth Shot compatibility?


Great point. I'm assuming Hoyt doesn't want to update the already established production and tooling process and costs.


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## Hoogie2004

Matt Z said:


> Great point. I'm assuming Hoyt doesn't want to update the already established production and tooling process and costs.


I think that's correct. Redesigning and adapting those risers might also reduce the number of higher level risers that are sold.

On the other hand, all tech is there to help with 'bad' shots, the key is to make those shots as good as possible. If it helps a novice with a bad shot, it should also help a pro with a bad shot (although the pro's 'bad' shots are ofcourse a different level). Even if it helps the pro with a minute improvement in grouping, it can make the difference in hitting a line or not, and thus a difference in score. 
From the other side, this will be almost impossible to measure, because the psychological impact of believing in the stealth shot system will far outweigh the real technical impact (at least for the pro).


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## Hoogie2004

Talked to my dealer yesterday, it's probably gonna take at least 2 weeks more from now, maybe even more.

Anyone got any info on when theirs arrive?


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## Matt Z

LAS labels them as backordered until Dec. 10th.


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## Matt Z

Jake Kaminski posted a thorough video explaining the new alignment system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJp84u5nwaE&feature=youtu.be


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## Vittorio

Having looked to the real object 2 days ago for the first time, I have noted that the real change in geometry is coming from the fulcrum position of the limbs lever. Now, fulcrum is in line with the dovetail bolt, while before on Formula risers and with all ILF other risers it has never been in that position, but around 1/2" over it. This for sure changes the reaction of exisitng limbs, their basic poundage and may be their life span. Basically, to change the fulcrum you shoud also change the design of the limbs (existing limbs are all thicker around fulcrum area, but fulcrum position is now different). Curious to see no one has commented about this, yet.


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## theminoritydude

Vittorio said:


> Having looked to the real object 2 days ago for the first time, ......Curious to see no one has commented about this, yet.


;-p


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## Hoogie2004

I've had the Prodigy and Prodigy XT in my hands last weekend (at the Kings of Archery tournament in the Netherlands). Both are really nice looking and comfortable in your hand. Haven't been able to shoot one though.

My findings based on the two bows i've seen:
The Prodigy was in Championship Red and the XT in Harvest Brown. Both colors were not as nice as i had hoped.
I've seen the Podium X compound in Silver Ice, Teal and the Purple color, all are really nice looking. I think the brighter colors look amazing in the new anodized finish, the darker colors just don't come off as nice .
The anodized finish is different to that of the Ion-x and before. The Ion-x had a shiny anodized finish whilst the Prodigy looks a bit more 'matte'. It's not completely matte though, just not as shiny as previous bows.

Luckily i have ordered my Prodigy XT in Silver Ice, and it's scheduled for early next week according to my dealer.

Talked to Sjef van den Berg (young dutch talent) about his Prodigy, and he likes it a lot.


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## airwolfipsc

Well I recieved my hoyt formula in orange torch today
and was soo excited..but when I pulled it out of the box
this had so many tool marks and flaws..that I had to return it. I think hoyt has soo much demand, that theres no QC right now. Sorry about my vent. Called Lancaster and they are sending another. They also told me painted riser comes out better coz its has primer, several coat of paint plus clear that imperfections is covered.


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## Hoogie2004

I got mine last friday. 27" Prodigy XT in Silver Ice.















I chose to go with green accents, which looks awesome with the silver of the handle (green string, green nocks and a green index vane on the arrow). 
Gonna order the green stealth shot bumpers 

Have shot it last saturday and sunday for about 2 hours each day. Using Formula Quattro Medium 36# limbs, getting around 39# on the fingers.
Loving it so far. Shoots really crisp.

Still have some tuning to do, especially with the x10 arrows. The 2114 aluminium are already grouping like a dream.


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## airwolfipsc

Jusy posted a youtube video about a comparison
of the new Prodigy vs ionx
pls search on youtube "Hoyt Prodigy vs IonX"
Thanks for viewing.

ED.


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## airwolfipsc

Nice rig...any tool marks flat spots and dents on your riser?
All in all you like the make and finish of your Prodigy?
Mine just looks absolutely reject thats why I ask?


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## Hoogie2004

Mine had no spots / marks / dents whatever. Maybe 1 little edge that was a bit sharper than i expected (one of the cutout sections in the riser) but still well acceptable.
The color is also flawless, i really love it.

Setting up the limbs was a breeze (with a bit of help from Jake Kaminski's video) and they are now set more straight then i've ever seen on any bow.
I am using the Shibuya Ultima Rest, which is just perfect. Have setup the low vertatune-plate with one for the X10 arrows, and the middle vertatune-plate with one for the 2114 Aluminiums i use. Switching is 2 minutes work. Change vertatune-plate, change button + string, and ready to go!

I am going to try Uukha Vx1000 xCurve limbs (with the formula adapters) somewhere in the coming weeks with this riser, just to see how that feels. The Quattro's with the Prodigy is already a lovely combination.


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## SBills

Received my riser before Christmas and my limbs upon returning home On Saturday. 25” Prodigy Silver Ice and Quattro longs. Riser was spotless as delivered. No scratches blemishes. Same for the limbs. Shot it at 20 yards for the first time this morning. Even for not having shot for 2 weeks I shot a very nice score. On setup mine was dead straight I used 4 Beiter blocks and a long rod and didn’t adjust a thing as delivered. Bow has a very smooth and solid feel. Really it was just a very pleasant shooting bow this morning.


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## limbwalker

Just now getting back to this thread...

1st thought is that "Prodigy" is a poor choice of names for this riser. It immediately makes me think of a beginner's bow. When I read "Prodigy" I was expecting to see an entry-level bow. 

Having said that, Doug has really done a fine job with the 3rd axis limb adjustment and the clicker/rest plate vertical adjustment. Those are useful items, provided the archer knows how to use them. Unfortunately, I have met fewer than 20 archers and coaches in the past 10 years who will fully understand how to use both of these features. I can't tell you how many GOOD archers I have seen who don't even understand how to use the existing alignment hardware properly. So I can just imagine how many folks will be chasing their tails by fiddling with the 3rd axis alignment on the dowels, then cranking the dowels to compensate for it. There will be a lot of "2 wrongs make a right" with this system, I'm afraid. 

Not a knock on the design at all. Again, I would look forward to having these features on a riser I used. Hopefully their owners will either figure it out, or leave it alone. 

The clicker/rest adjustment plates are in a way, resurrecting a very old idea that the Hoyt GM risers once featured. I never knew why they did away with that vertical rest/plunger adjustment anyway. I thought it was pretty useful. I also don't know why no other riser manufacturer used it in their design. I wish they all would. When switching arrows, it's a very useful thing, or if you have tied in a nocking point and need to tweak the height, it's much easier to just move the rest than the nocking points.

I think this will be a very successful riser for Hoyt, for those reasons. 

Nice job Doug.


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## limbwalker

Vittorio said:


> Having looked to the real object 2 days ago for the first time, I have noted that the real change in geometry is coming from the fulcrum position of the limbs lever. Now, fulcrum is in line with the dovetail bolt, while before on Formula risers and with all ILF other risers it has never been in that position, but around 1/2" over it. This for sure changes the reaction of exisitng limbs, their basic poundage and may be their life span. Basically, to change the fulcrum you shoud also change the design of the limbs (existing limbs are all thicker around fulcrum area, but fulcrum position is now different). Curious to see no one has commented about this, yet.


Vittorio, several of the Hoyt risers that use the dowel system have had the fulcrum on the dowel. Even my Axis riser had the fulcrum on the dowel. Maybe I am not understanding what you are seeing?


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## limbwalker

I also suspect the added "wings" on the limb pocket are there to compensate for the material that was removed in the holes behind dowel? Just a guess. Probably didn't want cracks showing up from the stress on the dowel/fulcrum.


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## gif

My xt in orange torch should be here any day now. Hopefully I have better luck than airwolf.


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## SBills

John,

It is a very nice riser with a lot of potential adjustment. I think you and I are if a similar mind on alignment. Either give me a straight riser and limbs with no adjustment or give me a system that is rock solid. This seems to be the latter. Mine was dead straight as delivered, which is good as I really did not want to mess with it. I agree the veratune also allows the possibility to swap a stick on style rest out (in the event of failure) our really quickly if you kept a spare. I set mine up in the medium position with 2314 arrows. What is really nice is the limbs. Easily the nicest Hoyt limbs I have seen in years. So far seem on par with or better than some of my favorite W&W limbs.


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## limbwalker

That's good to hear, since Hoyt had some catching up to do with the Koreans on the limbs. I've heard nothing but good things since the Quattro's were released though. That bodes well for their future.

Yes indeed. I either want a riser with NO adjustment, or one with a simple but solid one. Some of the alignment systems out there just plain stink.


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## acco205

I am rather disappointed to hear the pro alignment dowels are not a direct fit with the the older formula risers. Here's to hoping someone makes some spacers.


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## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> Vittorio, several of the Hoyt risers that use the dowel system have had the fulcrum on the dowel. Even my Axis riser had the fulcrum on the dowel. Maybe I am not understanding what you are seeing?


All ILF risers I know position the fulcrum of the limbs at the end of the pockets, were the riser size is measured, so limbs bend between the tip of the fork and the end of the pocket, while the dovetail bolt is just a centering device. If the the dovetail bolt axis becomes the fulcrum, the limbs have to be designed to use that axis as fulcrum and this makes the lenght definition of the rises meaningless, as the mechanical system becomes totally different in relationship to riser lenght. In my memory, Hoyt ILF risers all had a traditional position of the fulcrum, at the end of the pocket , even those using the cylindrical dowel round system. Surely this is changed for HPX riser, and the Prodigy has even removed the last part of the pocket to avoìd any contact with it at any level of pre-load of the limbs. Now, I leave the definition of the new working sytem to other limbs manufacturers, but surely this geomettry is different from traditional ones.


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## limbwalker

Actually Vittorio, the Hoyt risers with the dowel alignment system - since the Axis - position the fulcrum on the dowel. My SKY limbs still proudly wear horizontal marks where they pivoted on the dowel of the Axis riser all those years ago. 

It does - as you suggest - shorten the distance between the fulcrum and the bolt, or fork, compared to other ILF risers.

The TR-7 Prototypes I shoot for my Olympic bows used to position the fulcrum at the ends of the limb pockets, but since those limb pockets were elongated, this is what caused my limbs to fail at the 2012 trials. Brady confirmed this issue a day later, and told me what he had to do to solve the problem on his TR-7 risers - information I could have used a few weeks earlier, but it is what it is... Now those prototype risers (that I still use) have been filed down to move the fulcrum back toward the bolt, where the limb was designed to handle the stress.

This is why the production model TR-7 has beveled limb pockets - to position the fulcrum in the meat of the limb bulge and not at the ends of the laminations where the shear force can fracture the carbon layer (what happened with my limb). The Hoyt ILF risers with the dowel alignment system puts the fulcrum even closer to the bolt.

John


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## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> Actually Vittorio, the Hoyt risers with the dowel alignment system - since the Axis - position the fulcrum on the dowel. My SKY limbs still proudly wear horizontal marks where they pivoted on the dowel of the Axis riser all those years ago.
> 
> It does - as you suggest - shorten the distance between the fulcrum and the bolt, or fork, compared to other ILF risers.
> 
> The TR-7 Prototypes I shoot for my Olympic bows used to position the fulcrum at the ends of the limb pockets, but since those limb pockets were elongated, this is what caused my limbs to fail at the 2012 trials. Brady confirmed this issue a day later, and told me what he had to do to solve the problem on his TR-7 risers - information I could have used a few weeks earlier, but it is what it is... Now those prototype risers (that I still use) have been filed down to move the fulcrum back toward the bolt, where the limb was designed to handle the stress.
> 
> This is why the production model TR-7 has beveled limb pockets - to position the fulcrum in the meat of the limb bulge and not at the ends of the laminations where the shear force can fracture the carbon layer (what happened with my limb). The Hoyt ILF risers with the dowel alignment system puts the fulcrum even closer to the bolt.
> 
> John


Not very sure about all Hoyt ILF risers... I remember e for instance the Nexus.. you had to loosen the grain inside the dowel, let it tilt to follow the angle of the limb after setting its bolt, in order to have the limb touching properly the pocket end, then, remove the limb and tighten the grain again in order to keep that angle stable and avoid problems in removing limbs. Exactly same system on present Fivics risers, for instance. If you were (are) not doing this properly, the limb starts working in a very bad way, forcing the dovetail inside the dowel more or less depending form bolts pre-charge, and touching or not touching the end of the pocket, so generating a point of fracure there, during shots. Two solutions: set up the limbs and dowel properly, or remove the end of the riser pocket... But, ILF limbs are designed to work with fulcrum at the end of the 25" riser lenght, that means average more than 1 cm over the dovetail bolt center. Are now Hoyt also Hoyt ILF limbs designed to work differently? Of course, moving down the fulcrum in a Formula system is not the same as moving it in the ILF system.... and you get back some speed from the dinamycally 1" shorter riser in the Formula system.


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## Joe T

The potential shift in limb pivot point by Hoyt from the riser floor standard to a dowel was the reason a well known archery retailer declared guarantees would be invalid if you mixed the two systems. As Vittorio points out, depending on how you rotate the dowel you could pivot the limb conventionally (floor) or on the dowel. (Hadn't thought of that myself but then no experience of Hoyt bows). I've always believed (as per Limbwalker) that with the limbs designed for the dowel system the pivot point was supposed to be the dowel. Most people, in my experience, have used non Hoyt limbs with Hoyt risers without a problem - maybe by accident rather rather than design. Only issue I've seen as regards limb damage was using a newer (dowel pivot) Hoyt limb on an older (floor pivot) Hoyt riser. The bow was set up for the limb to pivot on the riser floor and the edges of the pockets rapidly eat away through the limb surfaces.


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## Vittorio

Joe T said:


> ----- Only issue I've seen as regards limb damage was using a newer (dowel pivot) Hoyt limb on an older (floor pivot) Hoyt riser. The bow was set up for the limb to pivot on the riser floor and the edges of the pockets rapidly eat away through the limb surfaces.


This brings out the last more important question: are Hoyt new ILF limbs suitable ot be used with other risers than Hoyt or they can get damged or breaking doing so? OK, I know this is out of topic ....


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## limbwalker

> Not very sure about all Hoyt ILF risers... I remember e for instance the Nexus.. you had to loosen the grain inside the dowel, let it tilt to follow the angle of the limb after setting its bolt, in order to have the limb touching properly the pocket end, then, remove the limb and tighten the grain again in order to keep that angle stable and avoid problems in removing limbs. Exactly same system on present Fivics risers, for instance.


Yes, all the post-Axis ILF Hoyt risers had this issue. My daughter shot a Matrix for a while, and one of my students has two of them. I will check, but I believe the limb still pivots on the dowel. There may be a point where the limb bolt is backed out far enough that the fulcrum moves off the dowel to the limb pocket itself. I'm not sure. I know with my Axis, that never happened. I could always see the dowel when looking in the ends of the limb pockets, and I shot mine with the limb bolts backed out.

I don't think it's an issue. At least, it never caused a problem on my SKY limbs or Masters limbs I shot on that Axis riser. The only limb failure I've ever experienced was the result of the limb pivoting on the ends of the pockets, too close to the end of the overlay lamination. The ILF limb should pivot at the bulge. Anything else will risk a fracture of the glass or carbon layers in the limb at the point where the overlay lamination ends.


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## SBills

Some good information in this thread even if a bit off topic. FWIW I adjusted my dowels rotationally so that the "Hoyt Dovetail"  bushing was parallel with the limb bolt (used a spare fitting I had) and limbs are pretty much at a mid setting. Limbs definitely sit on the dowel.


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## Joe T

Vittorio said:


> This brings out the last more important question: are Hoyt new ILF limbs suitable ot be used with other risers than Hoyt or they can get damged or breaking doing so? OK, I know this is out of topic ....


I suspect the problem relates to the contour of the limb butt. Using any limb on a riser designed to pivot on a dowel shouldn't be a problem as the limb will pivot on the dowel. Doubt if the different stress from a shift of pivot point (3/8"?) would make much difference with a stiff limb butt.

Using a limb designed to pivot on a dowel with a riser where the limb is supported on the limb floor (edge) is more problematical. The old style floor limb curvature is designed for the limb-riser floor contact point to be tangential. With the dowel pivot limb the butt shape could result in unacceptable stresses on the limb or the limb being damaged by the edge of the riser which was the case (Elan riser) I've seen.

In my neck of the woods hardly anyone uses Hoyt limbs and since the introduction of the Formula system almost nobody uses Hoyt risers either also so its not a practical problem. Before the Formula system lots of archers were using Helix etc. risers with Win Win etc. limbs without any problems.


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## Hoogie2004

Shooting this for a few weeks now, and i am still very impressed. It is definitely a step up from the Formula RX i had before.
Scores are around the same as with the RX (but i am still waiting on new limbs), but the shot feel is just the way i like it, nice and crisp. I love the addition of the stealth shots and the feel they give upon release.


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## Seattlepop

Joe T said:


> I suspect the problem relates to the contour of the limb butt. Using any limb on a riser designed to pivot on a dowel shouldn't be a problem as the limb will pivot on the dowel. Doubt if the different stress from a shift of pivot point (3/8"?) would make much difference with a stiff limb butt.
> 
> Using a limb designed to pivot on a dowel with a riser where the limb is supported on the limb floor (edge) is more problematical. The old style floor limb curvature is designed for the limb-riser floor contact point to be tangential. With the dowel pivot limb the butt shape could result in unacceptable stresses on the limb or the limb being damaged by the edge of the riser which was the case (Elan riser) I've seen.
> 
> In my neck of the woods hardly anyone uses Hoyt limbs and since the introduction of the Formula system almost nobody uses Hoyt risers either also so its not a practical problem. Before the Formula system lots of archers were using Helix etc. risers with Win Win etc. limbs without any problems.


I know my Matrix shifts the limb pivot point from riser edge to the dowel when I turn down the limb bolt. This leads me to wonder if all (non-formula) riser/limb combinations do something similar focusing on the limb dove-tail bushing?

It seems that if a limb's dove-tail bushing sits flat in the limb pocket dove-tail slot, then anytime you turn in the limb bolt to increase weight, for example, the limb that rests on the riser pocket edge would necessarily rise, moving the pivot to the limb bushing.


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## Joe T

Seattlepop said:


> I know my Matrix shifts the limb pivot point from riser edge to the dowel when I turn down the limb bolt. This leads me to wonder if all (non-formula) riser/limb combinations do something similar focusing on the limb dove-tail bushing?
> 
> It seems that if a limb's dove-tail bushing sits flat in the limb pocket dove-tail slot, then anytime you turn in the limb bolt to increase weight, for example, the limb that rests on the riser pocket edge would necessarily rise, moving the pivot to the limb bushing.


With the classic ILF limb the limb butt where it contacts the riser is curved with a very specific radius, There is of course no dowel. As you wind the limb bolts in and out the limb rolls along the riser floor with the butt radius maintaining a tangential contact. As you say as you wind the bolt in the point of limb contact on the riser floor moves towards the alignment pin (cotton reel).

Interesting point about the Matrix. My guess is that archers rarely change their draw weight and they just don't notice where the limb loading point is or notice if it does shift from loading from floor to dowel. I would guess that such a shift would have a significant impact on the tuning. Could be another thing to look for when people have oddball tuning issues.


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## SBills

The more I shoot my prodigy the more I like it. Last practice was a 420 in a 450 round (barebow). Every time I shoot the bow I seem to like it better. Very well behaved and pleasant bow and the 420 is very close to a PB for me.


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## gif

I finally got my new bow in. I ended up having marginally better luck than airwolf. The new matte orange anodizing looks awesome, and the finish was perfect, BUT... they sent me the prodigy instead of the XT. I waited 2-1/2 months for this though, so it's good enough. I wasn't really interested in the looks of the prodigy when I saw it in the catalog, but in person it looks much better. It must have been the angle the took the pics at. It really is a good looking riser.

I've only put a few dozen arrows through it, and haven't even started tuning yet, but carrying my sight and stabilizers over from my RX, after a sight adjustment, I shot 29, 30 ,30 for my first 3 ends, with x10s that are 2 sizes too weak. (I have it set up for outdoor at 46#, but was shooting my indoor arrows, tuned for my RX at 40#) It seems to be pretty forgiving, although a bit loud. like I said though, i haven't done any tuning.

It is noticeably lighter than my RX, I will need to make use of the backweight bushing to get them feeling the same. The new alignment system seems very solid, and after watching Jakes youtube video, I was all ready to jump in and set it up, but I didn't have to touch it, it was perfect from the factory. I think the grip is very slightly different than the Ion-X grip from last year, it's a little flatter. I like it.

the verta tune system is great. right now I've got the high plate on it, which I'll use for outdoor. I'll use the medium plate for fatboys indoors, and the low plate to try some IBO RU barebow this summer.

if anybody's got any questions, let me know.


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## airwolfipsc

Gif more power to you..glad you got a nice one.
watch for the lateral plastic bushings..some has
reported that they fall off. Shoot them straight and enjoy!


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## iabregog

A coach told me once...."it is the indian......not the arrow"
I saw the 2015 Nimes world cup and if i am not wrong.......the 3 first places went to korean archers........and just one with the prodigy riser.......by the way, he is Oh Jin-Hyek

just let me know your opinion about these risers please!

good luck!


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## Mo0se

The silver ice is a nice clean color choice...a gmx will look nice in that as well.


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## Hoogie2004

At my club, after me (from the Hoyt RX), 4 other archers switched to the Prodigy in favor of a W&W Inno something (1 person) and Hoyt Ion-x (3 people).
We've got 2 Matte Black, one Orange (awesome color compared to last year's orange), one green (not seen yet, will be coming in next week) and i am shooting a Silver Ice (best color imho).

The Teal is also a beautiful color, although i've only seen it on the Podium-x.

I love the way it shoots, even though i am currently not shooting my own limbs (waiting on them to come in, probably this week). Now shooting the F4 limb at 38#, will be shooting Quattro 38# Mediums on my 27" riser.


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## 2413gary

Just got Sandy's she loves it added 10oz below along with her Stabilizer. She won't even let me touch it lol


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## SBills

Some quick photos of my prodigy set up as a WA barebow legal rig. It is light feeling setup. I hope to add a few more ounces with some new weights on order as well as move that big B-stinger weight out a bit farther. Definitely more movement on the hold without the long rod and stabilizer but not bad overall and the shot reaction is still pretty good. 

First round I shot was encouraging and right around my average while last night was about 8 points off average. 

Gary wait until she is asleep. I think you will like it.


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## limbwalker

Scott, not to nitpick, but is that weight in the lower limb hole legal? If I remember correctly, WA rules say weights can be added below the grip but have to be mounted directly to the riser without extensions, etc.


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## SBills

By gosh I think you are right John. Thanks, I had missed that it specified riser. I thought I had seen a picture of an Italian barebow archer using a Hoyt formula with a weight there and just copied. Might have to try and fab something up to sandwich on the riser. I have a weight ordered for the back bushing as well.


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## limbwalker

Hate to be the bearer of that news, but my student was told he had to remove the weight in the top harmonic dampner of his TR-7 riser in Croatia, so some judges will look for this kind of thing. Another judge told his dad he couldn't have the spacer between the weight he had fabricated, and the riser bushing. He had taken a piece of leaf spring and used it for a weight. It followed the contour of the bottom limb pretty closely, but he had to use a spacer between it and the riser to clear the lower limb bolt. Even that metal spacer was a no-no.


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## ugeiger

Check this articel regarding weight attachment.
http://www.worldarchery.org/UserFil... Interpretations/2009/Bk4_Art.9.3.6.2.2-e.pdf


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## bobnikon

It is interesting how the interpretations are made. I can see from tournament to tournament having to pull out a copy of that ruling because you were on the verge of disqualification. Unfortunately if you havent made a request for ruling in advance you would be out of luck. 

I would not have figured they would pass that weight system...


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## limbwalker

Interesting interpretation. Too bad they can't just say "fit it through the ring" and be done with it. Not being able to use the Harmonic Dampners in my TR7's really put a "damper" on my enthusiasm for it as a barebow riser.


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## SBills

That is pretty ingenious. Kind of a homemade version of what they use on the Stolid Bull. I am finishing up a custom weight to sandwich to the riser of my prodigy and hope to have a picture soon.


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## SBills

OK update with the new weight. I fabricated this up at lunch yesterday out of 303 stainless. I am attaching my design for it in case anyone wants or needs to copy it. It fits the lower hole in my riser perfect (not sure how consistent Hoyt is with that hole so you might want to check it). Shot reaction is better than before and mass weight is up. Finished weight was just under 15oz. Added to the 22oz up front. Total weight added is just above 2 ¼#. 

Shot 279 and 274 this morning.


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## SBills

In a completely unrelated note I am happy to see that Nike now makes shoes to match my bow. :wink:


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## bobnikon

Oh no... you went there... its archery shoes revisted


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## SBills

The thread that would not die. Bwahhaaaahaaaahaaahaaa


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## Vittorio

There is debate running in Italy about the "fungus" solution for BB weights. Clearly, if made by two separte parts (weight and extension) , it is not legal, but if made in one piece only is it legal? The original spirit of the rule was to avoid to show "stabilizers" on a BB bow, so why a screw in the middle of a stab like this should make such a big difference in acceptance? An official interpretation will come, soon or later.


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## SBills

What is the opinion if two weights are stacked? A big one on a smaller one.


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## Zarrow

I









Will these be considered legal for FITA barebow?


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## Plucker

Two stacked wights are not allowed from what I have heard, another question what if one epoxy the 2 pieces together so that they are impossible to separate? effectively they are then one pice made of different materials, that is not covered by the rule specifically?


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## AdAstraAirow

If the weight is entirely one piece, then they normally are allowed. However, many have been disallowed that had a pass-through bolt holding the weight to the riser. The same style weight, with an internal bolt that screwed into the riser (such as a Spig barebow weight) was allowed. One one occasion that I know of, a weight which was made into a "one piece" with the use of epoxy was disallowed, but a similar weight which was welded together was passed at the same event. Seems like the WA is continuing to refine their rule definitions.

Mark


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## SBills

Rules like this are going to make me go back to my spig club. That thing was heavy and legal in everything.


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## SBills

Fabricated a new one piece 22oz “Fungus” weight (as Vittorio calls it) yesterday and banged out the best 450 round of the year on my league a 421. I don’t think it was all the weight but I was stoked.


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## Valiant

Hey everyone, when you are ordering the new formula Quattro's from Hoyt, do you first take a look at the DFC's before ordering, or are you hoping that previous limb weight and draw-length experience with other limbs will be close enough? Are you getting the DFC's from Doug Denton?
Thanks!


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## anmactire

Valiant said:


> Hey everyone, when you are ordering the new formula Quattro's from Hoyt, do you first take a look at the DFC's before ordering, or are you hoping that previous limb weight and draw-length experience with other limbs will be close enough? Are you getting the DFC's from Doug Denton?
> Thanks!


Good luck getting a measured DFC from them!


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## kshet26

In fact, if I remember the 2nd hand story correctly, someone was publishing DFC comparisons between different limb manufactures and was pressured to stop doing so. I think it might have been Archery Focus by Hoyt.


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