# 2011 Easton JOAD National Championships and 2011 USA Archery Youth World Championship



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

2011 Easton JOAD National Championships and 2011 USA Archery Youth World Championships Team Trials

2011 Easton JOAD National Championships Heading to Sacramento, California
USA Archery September 23, 2010 
http://usarchery.org/news/2010/09/23...to-calif/38678
Includes 2011 USA Archery Youth World Championships Team Trials information

My hope is that we will be able to refer the JOAD National Outdoor Championships as the “EJN” for a long time to come.
World Archery Youth Championships or WAYCh, http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=4702&me_id=3312&cnt_id=4703 incorporates the “World Archery” name branding.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

The 2011 Easton JOAD National Championship at Discovery Park in Sacramento, California looks to be an ideal set up around the field. Sacramento Airport (SMF) is served by almost a dozen major airlines. The hotels provide airport shuttle service. The hotels are less than $80 per night and includes breakfast. The hotels are walking distance to the field. There is a large number and variety of restaurants in the area, and the area is downtown. I look forward to hearing about the kinds of things to do in the area from people that are familiar with the area.

More

The incorporation of the World Archery Youth Championship USAA Team Trials allows a JOAD family make one trip and compete in two events. Something that many archery family can appreciate to keep costs manageable. I can see that some might rent a car just a few days to also keep the costs down.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Those that have taken part in tourneys at Discovery park, please tell us what the field and surrounding area is like. Favorite Restaurants? Attractions?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> Those that have taken part in tourneys at Discovery park, please tell us what the field and surrounding area is like. Favorite Restaurants? Attractions?


The 2011 EJNC and USAA YWC TT are fast approaching, any suggestions about things to do in and around Discovery park and the tournament host hotels in Sacramento?


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## amsurf (Mar 8, 2009)

Bob,

I personally think the coolest thing in Sacramento is the California State Railroad Museum which is located on Front St in the Old Town part of Sacramento. Kids and adults alike love this place as you can walk around and go through the trains. It's all indoors and air conditioned which in July is much appreciated! There are a lot of other things to see such as other museums, shops, etc. in this area but is pretty touristy. You can also catch a round trip train ride in Old Town that travels along the Sacramento River. If you plan to eat in one of the many restaurants located in or near Old Town I suggest you make a reservation as this place gets pretty busy this time of year. A web search will give you a lot of options and variety. I suggest you view the area on Google maps as it will give a very good reference as to where this is all located near Discovery Park.

If you are interested in early CA history and another good place to go is the Sutter's Fort State Historic Park. However, it is not within waking distance of Old Town or Discovery Park, you will need to drive there. And of course there are all the State Government buildings to see that have their own museums if you are into that sort of thing. I will not likely do this as I fear that I would run into one of our beloved politicians and give him/her a fair piece of my mind! Last but not least there is the Jelly Belly factory that is about 45 min west of Sacramento where you can talk walking tours and sample the goods. Have not been there myself, but a lot of people (with a sweet tooth I'm sure) really like this place.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Bringing this back to the top for a bit....

1) Hotels that are nearby are filling up fast. For the Ramada Inn and the Hawthorne Suites, you need to call the reservation into the hotel itself - doing an online reservation shows that the dates are blocked out.

2) The discrepancy for Compound Bowman has been corrected. Originally, the web page and the registration packet showed different target faces, with the web page showing that the Bowman compound archers were to use a 10 ring, 80cm target, and the registration packet showing that the archers were to use the 80cm target faces that go to the 5 ring (10,9,8,7,6,5). The web page and the packet are now showing the same information. Diane Watson has informed me via email that if all 4 archers on that bale agreed to an 80cm 10 ring target face, they could convert to one.

3) With regards to things to do - stuff around Old Town Sacramento is really cool. I will also agree that the Jelly Belly factory is nice, the Delta King boat that's docked in Old Sac, Apple Hill, and all the custom ice cream parlors out there.

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

This will be the first JOAD Nationals We have missed since 04 (had to help run the trials that month and had to catch up with work). We were hoping that USAA would have announced the dates while we were in Des Moines so that other shoots we attend could be set without a conflict. Sadly USAA did not announce this date (which is late compared to most every other JOAD Nationals held over the last 10 years-the third or last weekend in June has been the two most popular dates) until Jason Lewis had to commit to the same weekend for the extremely well run NORTH Region target. Hopefully we can attend next year and hopefully the USAA will timely announce next year's date and location (South region IIRC)


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> This will be the first JOAD Nationals We have missed since 04 (had to help run the trials that month and had to catch up with work). We were hoping that USAA would have announced the dates while we were in Des Moines so that other shoots we attend could be set without a conflict. Sadly USAA did not announce this date (which is late compared to most every other JOAD Nationals held over the last 10 years-the third or last weekend in June has been the two most popular dates) until Jason Lewis had to commit to the same weekend for the extremely well run NORTH Region target. Hopefully we can attend next year and hopefully the USAA will timely announce next year's date and location (South region IIRC)


No Judge Liz and Jim


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

No and I wish we weren't going to miss it but we told Jason we were going to come back to his shoot given what a great job he did and all three of us can shoot. Jason emailed me at least 6 times asking when the EJNs were going to be held and I gave him my best guess based on the last 12 years of history and working with what his club gave him and what he knew about other shoots and picked date that was later than almost every JOAD tournament in the past 12 years. since the WTC had been set I think part of our thinking was that EJN would not be in conflict with the worlds

we will be at next year's JOAD. its the final year for several of our top kids in their respective classes. Right now Ian is very small for a cub and with the entire event being 50M that puts him at an even bigger handicap as well though we would have gone if there had not been a conflict with what was one of the best run shoots I attended EVER,

I understand that the calendar gets tight Bob. I wish major shoots would have a consistent time period which would make things so much easier for us. its like the Grand American Trapshoot that was held for over 100 years up the road from us in Vandalia. if you were a serious trapshooter you knew pretty much when the grand was-that first ten days or so in August.

I don't recall there being a conflict with JOAD being held its traditional last weekend in June date (other than the coaching symposium in colorado springs which affects say just me and a few officials)


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

The world is changing, what was always, is no longer the rule. There are a lot more USAT events than before and extend into the fall. USAT takes place with Jr USAT and Cadet USAT. Gold Cup was not on Memorial day weekend. Texas shoot out is a Olympic Trails event. World Archery Cups have made international events like the AZ Cup change focus to become more Continental. The National Target Championships are held with in the same location as the USAA Field Championships. Prize money varies greatly. Compound round is at 50 while Recurve is at 70. Compound individual matches are cumulative score while Recurve individual matches compete with sets. EJN focuses on the Compound and Recurve round style ranking competition and features team rounds. Youth have the Dream Team program. There is a new Instructor and Coaching certification system revolving around the National Training System. Total Archery has been written. Electronic score keeping takes place in Vegas and top USAA events. Many more USAA world team members are funded than a half dozen years ago. Collegiate in the USA has migrated way from the FITA member association. NADA staff are now USAA staff. The USAA is governed by new bylaws with Directors instead of Governors and includes Independents. USAA staff is top notch from the ground up. There are archery centers in Yankton, Lansing and Newberry. Times they are a changing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_oJPnSaPlQ We have come a long way baby, and that’s from a guy that is new to the game.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

And often the change for sake of change just causes problems. The expansion of USAT shoots is going to make being fully competitive too expensive for some talented archers. when Jr USAT was based on basically three shoots-most kids could afford that. Six to Eight events-not so. JDT requires kids to miss too much school IMHO. So my son won't ever be part of that. and I worry about kids who chase the olympic dream at the cost of getting an education or getting the grades needed to compete for top colleges. One of my most talented kids couldn't afford missing that much school. NOt being on dream team might have cost him another national championship. NOt being on dream team earned him essentially a full ride college scholarship at a very good Jesuit university. Life is about choices-me thinks some of the change is forcing some of our youth to have to make choices that really are not necessary for us to be competitive in a sport that this country doesn't value as much as some other countries do


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## shootemstraight (Jan 13, 2007)

Jim C - TOTALLY agree with your post!!!
My husband and I have been involved with JOAD 20+ years (30+ for him) and we 100% agree with what you said and couldn't have put it any better.


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## ZANNY3 (Jan 4, 2006)

Can someone explain why our Joad Nationals and world trials is only shot at one distance for the recurve?? I think its really silly, it seems that if its only shot at one distance and Youth world is shot at all the distances, cadet 70,60,50,30 we are putting our kids at a disadvantage. We will be sending our best 60 meter shooter for cadet to world not knowing if they shoot well at other distances. Just a very odd thing I think. Also if anyone noticed on the registration packet it says Youth World is in October, its not its in August.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Chris-probably because the OR round for Cadets is at that distance.


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## ZANNY3 (Jan 4, 2006)

Thanks Jim
I still think it's rather silly


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ZANNY3 said:


> Thanks Jim
> I still think it's rather silly


NC

our state joad this weekend tracks the EJN

I must admit its much less hassle having one distance to set up per bale


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

My son will be shooting the this tournament and I have not gotten him signed up yet but I was wondering if I need to get us signed up for USArchery before he is signed up for this tournament?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

X-Ray said:


> My son will be shooting the this tournament and I have not gotten him signed up yet but I was wondering if I need to get us signed up for USArchery before he is signed up for this tournament?


Rules say that you need to be a USA Archery member at the time of check in and provide your membership card. If you aren't a member, then you need to either buy a membership at the time of check in or be a guest.

My wife, my son, and I keep copies of our membership cards in our quivers for that reason.

I would definitely take advantage of the family membership.

-Steve


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

thanks Steve I will do that for sure I belong to the NFAA but having another Organization is a good thing.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

X-Ray said:


> thanks Steve I will do that for sure I belong to the NFAA but having another Organization is a good thing.


What Steve said "I would definitely take advantage of the family membership." Very true. It allows parents and family to become Certified instructors and effective club volunteers. After a year of membership, a USAA judge so that the archers can compete in sanctioned events. Membership includes the exclusive member USAA e newsletter and voting rights. The USAA is conducting a club leaders and club organization seminar which is another membership benefit. Family membership is more than worthwhile.


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

I got my son signed up for Joad Nationals. I am also now a member of USArchery. 
I think they could make it a little easier to get signed up for a tournament. seriously. 
well now he has to practice a bit more!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

X-Ray said:


> I got my son signed up for Joad Nationals. I am also now a member of USArchery.
> I think they could make it a little easier to get signed up for a tournament. seriously.
> well now he has to practice a bit more!


 Hi X-Ray

Do you mean make it easier to become a USAA member? http://usarchery.org/membership and https://webpoint.usarchery.org/wp/Memberships/Join.wp 
Or to register for the tournament? http://usarchery.org/events/6039 and http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docum...lename/43439/EJN_2011_Registration_Packet.pdf
Or just to understand what the competition is and all aspects of getting from here to there? JOAD has a vocabulary and language specific to JOAD. By the time parents know how things work, their child ages out of the program.

Today, there is information overload. Websites have information that can be a decade or more old. Programs have been evolved in a big way in at a quick pace. People mix opinions and facts with misunderstanding. New to JOAD try to make sense of coaching, training, competitions, club activities, character development, equipment, travel, diet, fitness, indoors, outdoors, field. JOAD is definitely one of those, “If I only knew then what I know now” experiences. Those that receive experienced information and advice are lucky.


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

it was easy to sign up for usarchery it took me a few minutes to find out how to get him signed up for the tournament. I figured it out after a few minutes. thanks for your help.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

X-Ray said:


> it was easy to sign up for usarchery it took me a few minutes to find out how to get him signed up for the tournament. I figured it out after a few minutes. thanks for your help.


 Now you are a veteran, and able to show the way to others


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

ZANNY3 said:


> Also if anyone noticed on the registration packet it says Youth World is in October, its not its in August.


You're right -- the registration packet says October, but the FITA website still has it in August (World Archery Youth Championships
Legnica (POL) - 22-28 August 2011).

Can someone please clarify?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

archerymom2 said:


> You're right -- the registration packet says October, but the FITA website still has it in August (World Archery Youth Championships
> Legnica (POL) - 22-28 August 2011).
> 
> Can someone please clarify?


The USAA webpage and registration information has been revised to reference August for the 2011 YWC : http://usarchery.org/events/6039 
World Archery Youth Championships Legnica (POL) - 22-28 August 2011 webpages: http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=4702&me_id=3312


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

USA Archery has closed registration for the 2011 EJN.

http://usarchery.org/news/2011/06/16/easton-joad-nationals-registration-closed/42886

Please make your hotel reservations - The link for the event has been updated with additional hotel venues for lodging that are nearby.

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I was surprised to see that there was no provision for late entries. THe number of entries appears to be low. Several JDT archers I did not see on the registration list. I also did not see any warning in the registration packet other than the ambiguous language that entries were 125 (cadet and Junior) 100 (Bowmen and Cub) IF POSTMARKED June 10 or earlier.

I know two kids in our club who wanted to attend but their father's schedule was such it was only this week they knew he could take them.

When we ran the event we had late registration (with increased fees) up to I believe a few days before the tournament


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim,

I just got off the phone with Diane, who just got off the phone in a 2 hour concall with Katrina. They are still processing registrants from the June 10 deadline. According to Diane and Katrina, the field is full.

Here's the short version on what Diane said to do.

1) Have your students fax in their registrations to Katrina.

2) They will be put on a wait list.

3) They will be assessed a 25 dollar late fee.

4) The credit card will not be charged until they get moved from the wait list to the active registrants

5) Do not make plans until the kids have been moved off of the wait list and put into the active registrant list.

If your students get moved from the waitlist to the active registrant list, they will be called or contacted.

Hope this helps,
Steve


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

I hope this isn't a "hear we go again" (collegiate trials mess), we sent kendals registration in on June 10 and as of yesterday (6-16) it still hadn't been received. We are east coast so we can only pray it gets there.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

IIRC, this JOAD nationals is being hosted by the Sacramento tourist board or some such rather than a USA Archery affiliate. Is that unusual? And is it a good or bad thing as a model for future events?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Nicely said:


> I hope this isn't a "hear we go again" (collegiate trials mess), we sent kendals registration in on June 10 and as of yesterday (6-16) it still hadn't been received. We are east coast so we can only pray it gets there.


I can only imagine the paperwork pile that Katrina is plowing through. Based on my conversation with Diane earlier today, since your paperwork was postmarked on June 10, you're basically going to have Kendal in before any stragglers will get in.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> IIRC, this JOAD nationals is being hosted by the Sacramento tourist board or some such rather than a USA Archery affiliate. Is that unusual? And is it a good or bad thing as a model for future events?


I thought USA Archery and Easton were the primary sponsors, with the Wilderness JOAD Club being the primary representation as the USA Archery affiliate. In the liability release, USA Archery and Wilderness JOAD are the primary entities mentioned.

-Steve


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> I thought USA Archery and Easton were the primary sponsors, with the Wilderness JOAD Club being the primary representation as the USA Archery affiliate. In the liability release, USA Archery and Wilderness JOAD are the primary entities mentioned.
> 
> -Steve


Hmm...That sounds more like I would have expected. I had remembered the initial press release only mentioning the Sacramento Convention and Visitors Bureau and the Sacramento Sports Commission. But but a google search seems to indicate that I mis-remembered that announcement. Sigh.... Now if only I could find my car keys... :embara:


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

If I remember, the Mason Board of Tourism was heavily involved with the JOAD Nationals and the 04 Olympic trials at the time. Jim C would have knowledge of this . . .


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Jim,
> 
> I just got off the phone with Diane, who just got off the phone in a 2 hour concall with Katrina. They are still processing registrants from the June 10 deadline. According to Diane and Katrina, the field is full.
> 
> ...



thanks

I wonder how many people they have-the registration list I read today was sure smaller than the almost 300 we had in cincy in -2002 and the 265 or so we had in 06.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Matt Z said:


> If I remember, the Mason Board of Tourism was heavily involved with the JOAD Nationals and the 04 Olympic trials at the time. Jim C would have knowledge of this . . .


yeah it was a joint effort with the warren county recreation and tourism committee along with CJO. Steve Cornell ran things, Warren County helped with facilities. 02 it was Butler County but unlike the nationals where it was the county that bid, it was CJO who was the main bidder in 02, 04, 06 but if Steve Cornell is around he has a more accurate view. I run the club, but Steve was our tournament chairman (arguably the best in the country)


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> thanks
> 
> I wonder how many people they have-the registration list I read today was sure smaller than the almost 300 we had in cincy in -2002 and the 265 or so we had in 06.


Speaking in a total unofficial position here, and I'm sure people will deny that the information I'm giving exists:

Little birdies have whispered that there are nearly 240 registrants that have a postmarked date of June 10. 

Speaking personally - I've been to Discovery Park (a cousin used to live nearby until he moved back to San Jose). I don't know how they will cram in 240 or more kids. I'm sure that they will do something to get everyone in. I don't envy the process right now.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Hmm...That sounds more like I would have expected. I had remembered the initial press release only mentioning the Sacramento Convention and Visitors Bureau and the Sacramento Sports Commission. But but a google search seems to indicate that I mis-remembered that announcement. Sigh.... Now if only I could find my car keys... :embara:


You aren't crazy at all. So - your car keys are fine.

USA Archery and the Sacramento Convention/Visitors Bureau did do a joint press release sometime in mid 2010. If the USOC's web site wasn't so stinking hard to search through, I'd find it.

I also recall other clubs being mentioned, but since I can't find the press release, I can't verify it.

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Speaking in a total unofficial position here, and I'm sure people will deny that the information I'm giving exists:
> 
> Little birdies have whispered that there are nearly 240 registrants that have a postmarked date of June 10.
> 
> ...


My two archers apparently have proof of mailing on June 8th so apparently there are tons of people who did enter on time who were not listed on the registration. Lots of california kids who don't tend to make the MW and East coast shoots are entered-that is the nice thing about JOAD moving around the country.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> My two archers apparently have proof of mailing on June 8th so apparently there are tons of people who did enter on time who were not listed on the registration. Lots of california kids who don't tend to make the MW and East coast shoots are entered-that is the nice thing about JOAD moving around the country.


According to a post that Teresa Iaconi did on USA Archery's web site, an updated (and likely final) entry list should be posted this weekend.

But, 200+ registrants is a LOT to do manually. I'm sure you and Steve Cornell are fully aware of the fun that is involved. And I use the term "fun" loosely.

-Steve


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

> My two archers apparently have proof of mailing on June 8th


Hi Jim, 

Mailing on June 8th would of had the registration being received probably over the weekend and therefore their names did not make the 6/10 list that was posted on USA Archery. Sorry, but it's just the process of receiving registrations. It seems that there are a lot of individuals that waited to the last minute ( I understand how those things go). The office has done an awesome job in getting the majority of the entries processed this week. 

I believe that you will find that your two archers are registered. I posted another update at 5:15pm est on 6/17/11 at http://usarchery.org/events/6039

Sorry that you guys can't make it to Sacramento.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I see a lot of WA and CA JOADs in numbers (100 girls, almost 150 boys) that seem much greater than the 2007 JOAD National Outdoor Championship at the CV OTC. The northern CA location for the EJN looking to be a great west region location. 
I think that JOAD and the USAA have improved in leaps and bounds since I was involved in JOAD. A national JOAD Coordinator, An event manager, USAA media specialist, Social Media, New JOAD committee members, USAA grass roots focus with staff at the CV OTC, CO Springs and Newberry FL. Sure beats the “good ol’ days”.

What do you all think of the format and schedule? If I were king of the world, I would have:
Thursday Practice
Friday 72 Arrow Ranking Round 
Saturday Team Round
Sunday Individual Elimination Championship Round


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Get ready for the 2011 EJN team round!*

Get ready for the 2011 EJN team round! 

The inaugural EJN team rounds took place last year and Des Moines and was a huge hit! The parents really liked being able to cheer and encourage. The camaraderie of team members and fellow teams is something that brings an added sense of unity to our community. Team rounds helps to foster a sense of We vs. Me.

Practice team rounds with your fellow archer, club members or even with your family and friends. Simply walking thru the motions with non-archers is great training. Practice having to shoot two arrows in 20 seconds. Ask coaches and club leaders to time and conduct team rounds.

The training and practice teaches that there is more than enough time for a team to shoot their arrows. I have noticed that teams that rush get in the way of each other and actually take longer than those that plan and proceed calmly. The best teams are the ones that communicate and call out where arrows are hitting loudly to be heard over the cheering crowd.

My suggestion to team round archers is to “prevent a judge from having a chance to ruin your match”:

Step towards the 1 meter line to shoot after the box is clear.
Reach for an arrow after you are on the shooting line.

The competition focus is a team arrows in the target face, not testing a judge’s human abilities. A yellow card is not appealable.
Have fun and cheer!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Soon folks will be on their way to Sacramento for the 2011 EJNC and the USAA WAYC Team Trials.
Average temperatures for Sacramento during the events ranges from the low 60s to the mid 90s. 
Sacramento precipitation averages .05” per month in July. As a comparison, Phoenix averages .09” per month in July, almost double the Sacramento average. 

About a week ahead of the tourney is the time to be checking the 10 day forecast.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> What do you all think of the format and schedule?


Single distance? If this is the direction outdoor archery is headed, well, I never thought archery could get even more boring to watch...

And "registration is full?" Jim, I remember the field at JOAD Nationals in 2006. It was awesome. 

John


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## coach1 (Apr 14, 2003)

On the 6/20 "Final" list. I count 259 Registrants.

Here's my two cents worth 

I agree with Jim C regarding change for the sake of change. That being said, in this case I believe it is more a matter of remaining relevant. The Collegiate program moved to a single distance format several years ago. Primarily becase the Collegiate international format had moved to 70M only. making the four distance FITA format irrelevant from a training perspective. At the time there was all the expected arguments about change etc both for and against. Three years later USIAC set a record number of participants (at least in recent years.) 70 meters distance is a much easier sell to universities and potential hosts. Tournaments run faster, Fields are much easier to set up and maintain during the event, (Less expensive to mark too.) 

Though the four distance FITA is still contested at the World Championships, The round was modified to be compatible with the single distance compound round. With nothing other than the history of recent changes, I suspect that the forseable future will see the Four Distance FITA round go the way of the York Round, Grand FITA and 900 rounds. Fun to shoot, irrelevant for competition. Athletes and coaches that fail to embrace the changes (regardless of the reason for the changes) will have major difficulties.

Like it or not single distance is the format we are moving towards. Our major tournaments need to follow suit or we fail to properly prepare our athletes.


Gary


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

The JWC are a full fita for the junior and cadet recurve shooters. Why would the trials not mirror the actual competition? 50 meters is a make or break distance for many shooters so why leave it out. Just because a shooter can shoot a fairly high number a one distance, 60 or 70 meters, does not mean they will be competitive on a world level at all four distances. It takes long hours of training and discipline to put four solid distances together in a single day or over two days period in a highly stressful environment like the JWC. These trials may not put the kind of team together that USAA is hoping for. I guess the juniors and cadets don't really matter anyway, or the trials would have been on a separate day so not to jack up USAT rankings of so many of the top junior shooters.

Gary


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

coach1 said:


> On the 6/20 "Final" list. I count 259 Registrants.


There's 261 bib numbers assigned at the last count that I've seen.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

As a shooter, I don't really care for the single distance format. It's just boring and switching target sizes and distances contributes at least some level of change in an event that already desperately needs some change. And four distances (esp. 90 meters) helps us find the best archer IMO.

As a fan, archery was already boring enough to watch. But now we're taking out 90 meters? One of the most impressive things about FITA archery for decades has been the fact that archers are shooting the length of a football field. More than anything, I would hate to see that go.

As an event organizer, I can certainly see the simplicity of a single distance format. MUCH easier to set up and run and keep track of.

But as a coach, if we're sending a team to an event where they will compete at four distances, then the trials need to be those four distances. Period. We all know archers who are strong at some distances and weak at others. I've seen guys that can shoot lights-out at 30 meters who can barely hold blue at 90. 

Gary, I agree we need to properly prepare our athletes, but having them shoot a single distance, then sending them to a four distance event doesn't sound like proper preparation to me. Am I missing something here? 

Change is inevitable. Change also needs to be for a reason though. Tell me the reason and I'll be all in.

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Single distance? If this is the direction outdoor archery is headed, well, I never thought archery could get even more boring to watch...
> 
> And "registration is full?" Jim, I remember the field at JOAD Nationals in 2006. It was awesome.
> 
> John


The single distance is far easier for us tournament promoters but we did this at our state shoot one year and at our JOAD shoot this year and most of the kids said it was boring.

I also note-especially for the cubs-that shooting all the arrows at the longest distance really hurts the smaller kids. My son for example is small for his age (at the NFAA State indoor where he was competing against those who had not yet turned 15, the kid who finished second behind him was 6-4 tall) and having the entire event at 50M, especially if it is windy is a huge handicap which is the second reason (the first being Jason Lewis scheduled his extremely well run North Region FIRST) we are passing on Sacremento this year. When I was last in California for JOAD NATIONALS, my two cubs were the McLaughlin twins and they shot a full FITA but they and the winner (Andrew Noble) were the three tallest kids on the field but a much shorter boy upset Daniel in the OR. The shorter kids like National INdoor Champion Jon Farr were able to make up some ground at the shorter distances because at the time he was technically a bit stronger form wise than the twins. But in the Cub division the growth spurt differentials tend to be bigger than at the 17 or 20 year levels and this format really is tough on those boys and girls who haven't hit that growth spurt.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good points Jim. More diverse formats tend to find the more complete archer. This "specialization" of our sport to single distances and fewer arrows isn't really something I'm a fan of, even if it does make it easier on event organizers. Totally agree on the longer distances favoring the larger archers and the shorter distances giving smaller statured archers an opportunity to "catch up." 

I wonder why we seemed to be able to host 100's of fitas in the past but now this multiple distance format is a problem? Fewer volunteers? Fewer available fields? There must be a good reason, right?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

for some reason I seem to remember that there were problems with reaching 90M on the field in CA this year. It looks to me like field size limited this shoot to what it is.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huntmaster said:


> for some reason I seem to remember that there were problems with reaching 90M on the field in CA this year. It looks to me like field size limited this shoot to what it is.


Was this not a requirement of the bid? Why are we hosting world team trials on a field that won't hold the format that will be shot at the world championships? I don't understand this at all.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Was this not a requirement of the bid? Why are we hosting world team trials on a field that won't hold the format that will be shot at the world championships? I don't understand this at all.


Actually, according to the bid documents, 70 meters is the max required distance. Also originally, before the 50m compound round became the de factor required round, all Bowman shot 30, all Cubs shot 50, all Cadets shot 60, and all Juniors shot 70. 

Now it's split up...

The original bid documents are here:

http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docum..._National_Bid_Application_-_Final_4-29-10.pdf

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thanks Steve. Pretty clear in the bid what format would be required. My question is why that format when the Jr. World team would be selected from this event, then faced with a different round at the Jr. World Championships?

I'm sorry, but this makes zero sense to me.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Thanks Steve. Pretty clear in the bid what format would be required. My question is why that format when the Jr. World team would be selected from this event, then faced with a different round at the Jr. World Championships?
> 
> I'm sorry, but this makes zero sense to me.


John,

All I can do is shrug my shoulders and say "I Dunno". All I can see is that 2011 and 2012 (where ever 2012 will be held...I don't think that announcement has been made yet) will hold the 4 x (insert distance here) format.

I'll agree with you that one should train and compete in the formats you're going to go after. Possibly it's to make it easier on the organizers? I'm just conjecturing....

-Steve


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Actually, according to the bid documents, 70 meters is the max required distance. Also originally, before the 50m compound round became the de factor required round, all Bowman shot 30, all Cubs shot 50, all Cadets shot 60, and all Juniors shot 70.
> 
> Now it's split up...
> 
> ...


And that would make me wrong LOL Guess it was orriginally set as a single distance. Thanks for the correction.


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## ZANNY3 (Jan 4, 2006)

I understand it was originally set at one distance. I was talking to friends of ours in Sweden and they were laughing at the USA because of trials being at one distance. They said thats great you are sending your best 60 meter shooters to Poland (cadet distance). Hope they can shoot the rest. I personally think we are not preparing our youth for international competetion if we do not have all the distances. And also have as many set match head to head competetions as possible. Its really riddulous that the compound have OR rounds for the cadets and the recurve do not. Oh well as I always say if you dont like it just wait it will change. Thats just my frustration for today.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ZANNY3 said:


> I understand it was originally set at one distance. I was talking to friends of ours in Sweden and they were laughing at the USA because of trials being at one distance. They said thats great you are sending your best 60 meter shooters to Poland (cadet distance). Hope they can shoot the rest. I personally think we are not preparing our youth for international competetion if we do not have all the distances. And also have as many set match head to head competetions as possible. Its really riddulous that the compound have OR rounds for the cadets and the recurve do not. Oh well as I always say if you dont like it just wait it will change. Thats just my frustration for today.



Speaking as an instructor....

It is my job and my responsibility to ensure that my students are prepared for the distances involved in whatever tournaments they are shooting. 

If they are shooting a 4 distance tournament - then we prepare for that.

If they are shooting a 4 x single distance tournament - then we prepare for that.

If one tournament is one setup, and another tournament is a different setup, then we practice for both. 

It would be poor coaching if one only stuck with a certain distance. Drilling for all distances and all conditions that one may encounter is what's expected. Just because a tournament is at a 4 x single distance does not mean the archers we are sending are going to not be prepared for worlds.

As for your Swedish friends, tell them to "Stick och brinn". We'll see them in Poland, shake hands, then see how well the United States shoots. 

(Translated for those who don't speak Swedish - it loosely translates as "Take a Hike" or "get lost". Literally, it means "get off my face"; colloquially it means "mind your own business". Yes, I understand a bit of Swedish, my wife is half Swedish and my wife's mom still has property there. And Swedish is notoriously poor for trading barbs.)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Just because a tournament is at a 4 x single distance does not mean the archers we are sending are going to not be prepared for worlds.


Which would be fine if we knew that only your archers would be the ones selected. I think you miss the point just slightly...

You need a trials process that SELECTS based on the format. A single distance format will favor certain archers over others. How would we know if an archer has issues at the other three distances (ESPECIALLY 90 meters for the young men!) if we don't ask them to shoot it?

Certainly you can prepare, but let's select teams with the right tool. We can debate trails selection processes all day (it's already been done here multiple times in fact) but the easiest thing to agree on, I would think, is that the trials event should mirror the competition it selects for.

John


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Which would be fine if we knew that only your archers would be the ones selected. I think you miss the point just slightly...
> 
> You need a trials process that SELECTS based on the format. A single distance format will favor certain archers over others. How would we know if an archer has issues at the other three distances (ESPECIALLY 90 meters for the young men!) if we don't ask them to shoot it?
> 
> ...


It seems to me that JOAD Nationals has always been a set style of tournament (changed to one distance last year for time, convenience, and similarity to what the rest of the world was doing at the time), exactly like US Nationals. I guess does the question becomes should they be changed to mimick the World Cup tournaments (alternating formats)? Perhaps having a National Championship set in one steady format is not the best way?


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## ZANNY3 (Jan 4, 2006)

John, 
You speak Sanity! I couldnt agree more!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Be sure to visit tournament websites for up to date information. The 2011 EJN is a great example. 
Visit http://usarchery.org/events/6039 and review:

Schedule and tournament information
Team round competition information
EJN Tournament rules and procedures summary
Entrants list
EJN Media photo policy and to apply for credential 
Additional hotel information if needed


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> Just because a tournament is at a 4 x single distance does not mean the archers we are sending are going to not be prepared for worlds.)


Here is what I know as far as the cadet male recurve shooters in the USA and the JWC. In 2008 only three boys had shot over 1200 prior to the junior world trials in Colorado and none of them made the junior world team. I know for a fact that my son, who made the Cadet team as a second year Cub, was told that he was not good enough to compete with the Koreans by the national head coach and JDT coaching staff. At the championships in Turkey after finishing the ranking round Matt was asked what he shot and after stating he shot a 1218 one of the JDT coaches on the staff said to him, “and you thought you could win this thing”. They were right, he went out in his second match against the #5 ranked kid from India after two single arrow shoot offs. He had only been shooting recurve for 10 months. The cadet male recurve team did not make the cut to compete in the team rounds.

In 2009 one month before the junior world championships in Ogden Utah, at a JDT camp in Chula Vista Matt was again told by the head Cach and coaching staff that he is way too confident and that he was not good enough to compete on a world level. He was shooting consistently around 1300 and as high as 1325 in practice. The world record is 1380. Matt finished 11th at the world championships and the cadet male recurve team finished 6th. Matt finished the year ranked number one in the cadet male recurve division.

In 2010 Matt moved up to shoot in the junior division as a second year cadet to gain experience and grow as a shooter, since he is clearly not good enough. Matt shot as 1306 in a senior qualifier and average around 1280 at the senior distances that year and also finished the number on ranked junior. In October he shot one full cadet fita and set a new star fita record of 1337 beating the old record by over 30 points. A comment was made to me, by a member of the JDT coaching staff that Matt should be shooting over 1350. The only other cadet in the USA that has shot anywhere near that was Daniel McLaughlin, who is an awesome shooter, with a 1336 at the Pan American Games. Sadly Daniel is now junior for 2011. In 2010, and so far in 2011, cadets in America have been shooting below 1250. As far as I can tell by the comments made to Matt and I that is not good enough. In previous JWC the top eight or so shot over 1300 with the high being 1370's. This year everyone is one year older. I am guessing top 15 to 20 shoot over 1300 with the high again in the 1370’s or 1380’s.

In 2011 Matt is competing in the senior division as a third year cadet and is having a hard time of it. It is all in preparation for hopefully his third junior world championships. Sacrifices have to be made to grow some times. Since the all mighty board of directors in there infinite wisdom decided that they would combine the JOAD nationals and the JWT to save time and money, kids like Matt Zumbo, Paige Pearce, and Kailey Johnson, that shoot up for growth, have to sacrifice their junior USAT ranking. Matt will be unfunded, unranked, and not on the junior USAT because he will shoot down in the cadet division for the JWT. He asked me why even bother to shoot anything besides the JWT, and I said, “Practice, I guess.”

Matt has resigned from the Junior Dream Team. In his worlds, “I am sick of being told that I am not special, and I am sick of being told that I am not good enough”. We are going to try something different this time, positive reinforcement and an environment where he believes that he is good enough. Matt has not shot a cadet fita since November of 2010; we don’t know what will happen or even if he will make the team again. Shooting one single distance tightens up the gap. If you have a bad day then you might just be sent home.

Like I said in a previous post, the USAA might not field the kind of team that they are looking for with this JWT. Our preperation in the US needs to be better. Train like you play.

You are right John, the USAA doesn't make any sense.

Gary


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Which would be fine if we knew that only your archers would be the ones selected. I think you miss the point just slightly...
> 
> You need a trials process that SELECTS based on the format. A single distance format will favor certain archers over others. How would we know if an archer has issues at the other three distances (ESPECIALLY 90 meters for the young men!) if we don't ask them to shoot it?
> 
> ...


John is exactly right. I have been arguing this for months. The CEO put her finger in my face at Vegas and told me that the board was very close to shutting down youth archers from changing age groups in the US. Meaning that you would have to select your age group you were going to shoot at the beginning of the year. This hurts archers trying to grow. Kids like Michelle Gilbert, Matt Zumbo, Paige Pearce and the like. Top archers mind you. But MOST IMPORTANTLY...it hurts USA ARCHERY! Hello...we are trying to win medals at the World level, catch a clue and figure out that these kids want the same thing that USA Archery wants...to medal at Worlds. This sport is full of politics and full of agendas...JOAD Nationals/Youth World Trials is a perfect example. The politics forced us out but it has not shut us down. Only time will tell if we can make a difference in the end. For the archers sake, I hope so.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You are right John, the USAA doesn't make any sense.


Gary, I understand your frustration. And I don't think this format makes sense for the JWT selection process. However, a lot of what USAA is doing these days makes good sense to me. So I wouldn't want folks to think that I disagree with the decisions of USAA across the board. I don't. I just think if we're selecting a team for a tournament that will be shot at four distances, we need to make our trials for that team reflect that. That's all. Seems real simple to me. 

Of course, one could argue that the best archers will win regardless of format, and to some degree that's true. But I have seen too many examples of where an archer can shoot well at some distances but not at others. I've seen kids completely fail at 90 meters but shoot lights-out at 30 and 50. Maybe we're just fixated on the elimination rounds and forsaking the ranking rounds now? If so, I guess there may be some logic in that as well. There is room for disagreement here, as any team selection isn't a perfect science, but still, I think the easiest thing to agree on is for the trials to follow the competition format. It's not likely, but conceivably we could have a kid make the team that can't even reach 90 meters, as an example. How would we know that? Hopefully they are strong enough at 70 to beat the top ranked archers in the eliminations, because that's then who they will face in the first round...

As for the JDT staff telling any young archer they aren't good enough, I'm sorry to hear that. No young person needs to hear that. It's not productive at all. Not so long as there is still room for development, and even if there isn't, there isn't much benefit in language like that. Teenage archers tend to have very fragile self-images, I've learned. Probably just teens in general. And they tend to believe adults way more than they should...  As if we actually know what we're talking about... ha, ha. 

Oh, if they only knew the truth... 

And for the record, I'm NOT in favor of young archers "shooting up" in older divisions. Personally, I think the potential harm outweighs the potential benefits. I've personally seen the setbacks to young archers as a result of (usually) their parents or coaches pushing them to do this. But hey, that's just my philosophy. Feel free to disagree... 

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Looking again at the JWAC format, one could always ask the question of why the four distance qualification round then a single distance elimination? But that's another topic for another day, I think...

Archery is always changing it seems... It makes me wonder if we're searching for the sake of searching sometimes...

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> And for the record, I'm NOT in favor of young archers "shooting up" in older divisions. Personally, I think the potential harm outweighs the potential benefits. I've personally seen the setbacks to young archers as a result of (usually) their parents or coaches pushing them to do this. But hey, that's just my philosophy. Feel free to disagree...
> 
> John


I get it John. We didn't push Matt up. He wanted to follow the competition. He was the #1 cadet in 2009. He did that and wanted to try to be the #1 Junior. He did that 2010. He is now shooting with the seniors and it is much harder, and I see your point of possible setbacks. It has been a rough go of it. The biggest reason for shooting up this year for Matt was the fact that because of the poor judgment of the board of directors the only way he could have a junior USAT ranking was to shoot cadet all year. That was not going to help him or the USA for the JWC. If you reach for the stars and fall, you can still land on the moon.

I would like to add that I am very proud of my son weather he shoots up or down, if he wins or loses, or even if doesn't shoot at all. He says he wants to be the best in the world, so he keeps pushing himself. I have great admiration for his strength. He has put up with a lot negative and hateful things from people in positions of power over young athletes. Others would quit along time ago.

Hey, we are trying to do our best in developing his talent to the fullest. We could be doing it wrong.

Gary


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

On the bright side, the ranking round is just that. The OR's are what count for finishes, and they are shot at one distance. Also I've seen those who can shoot the shorter distances outshoot the advantage the distnace shooter built up. In my oppinion, it'll be a wash in the end.

On the other hand, I distinctly remember last year when everyone was shooting a single distnace, US Nationals took Miranda for a complete surprise. She was totally unprepared for shooting different distances, and only had one rig partially sighted when we showed up at the practice field. It definately hurt her finish. Luckily I'm guessing the ones who make the team will have shot other tounaments at different distances, so they shouldn't be too out of practice.

Speaking of which, who else noticed that the 3rd world cup in Ogden is a single distance format? I can't immagine why it didn't fall into the same format as the others.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

gairsz said:


> I get it John. We didn't push Matt up. He wanted to follow the competition. He was the #1 cadet in 2009. He did that and wanted to try to be the #1 Junior. He did that 2011. He is now shooting with the seniors and it is much harder, and I see your point of possible setbacks. The biggest reason for shooting up this year for Matt was the fact that the only way he could have a junior USAT ranking was to shoot cadet all year. That was not going to help him for the JWC. If you reach for the stars and fall, you can still land on the moon.
> 
> Just saying,
> 
> Gary


I'm curious to know why there isn't a seperate ranking round on Thurs. night like we had here at JOAD Nationals in Des Moines. That was the EXACT reason we did that. Had one or two Cadets not decided to try for the YOG, we wouldn't have had to shoot Thurs. As soon as they signed up, we were bound to it....although it made for a REAL long tournament


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Hey Scott, congratulations on Miranda making the senior team and not have to worry about the JWT. Miranda is perfect example of a kid reaching for the stars and grabbing a few. Good for both of you. I have seen you working with your daughter, you are doing a great job and are a great dad.

Gary


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Gary, I understand your frustration. And I don't think this format makes sense for the JWT selection process. However, a lot of what USAA is doing these days makes good sense to me. So I wouldn't want folks to think that I disagree with the decisions of USAA across the board. I don't. I just think if we're selecting a team for a tournament that will be shot at four distances, we need to make our trials for that team reflect that. That's all. Seems real simple to me.
> 
> Of course, one could argue that the best archers will win regardless of format, and to some degree that's true. But I have seen too many examples of where an archer can shoot well at some distances but not at others. I've seen kids completely fail at 90 meters but shoot lights-out at 30 and 50. Maybe we're just fixated on the elimination rounds and forsaking the ranking rounds now? If so, I guess there may be some logic in that as well. There is room for disagreement here, as any team selection isn't a perfect science, but still, I think the easiest thing to agree on is for the trials to follow the competition format. It's not likely, but conceivably we could have a kid make the team that can't even reach 90 meters, as an example. How would we know that? Hopefully they are strong enough at 70 to beat the top ranked archers in the eliminations, because that's then who they will face in the first round...
> 
> ...


I understand your position and respect it. If it is the parents pushing or even the coach then it is wrong. But the potential harm that I saw for my archer was that she would have quit the sport had I forced her or actually held her back. So I weighed the issues and let her do what she wanted. We did listen to a coach recently and that was a huge mistake but we were the final decision decision makers so we can't say a lot.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Huntmaster said:


> I'm curious to know why there isn't a seperate ranking round on Thurs. night like we had here at JOAD Nationals in Des Moines. That was the EXACT reason we did that. Had one or two Cadets not decided to try for the YOG, we wouldn't have had to shoot Thurs. As soon as they signed up, we were bound to it....although it made for a REAL long tournament


I did not think it made for a long tournament and it was shot the way it should have been shot. The same way Youth World Trials should be shot, regardless if it is one distance or 4 distances, it should be separate.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Huntmaster said:


> On the bright side, the ranking round is just that. The OR's are what count for finishes, and they are shot at one distance. Also I've seen those who can shoot the shorter distances outshoot the advantage the distnace shooter built up. In my oppinion, it'll be a wash in the end.
> 
> On the other hand, I distinctly remember last year when everyone was shooting a single distnace, US Nationals took Miranda for a complete surprise. She was totally unprepared for shooting different distances, and only had one rig partially sighted when we showed up at the practice field. It definately hurt her finish. Luckily I'm guessing the ones who make the team will have shot other tounaments at different distances, so they shouldn't be too out of practice.
> 
> Speaking of which, who else noticed that the 3rd world cup in Ogden is a single distance format? I can't immagine why it didn't fall into the same format as the others.


If you look at the results so far this year I think you find that the first three archers at the single distance they plan to shoot is not the same three archers that ended in the top three at the end of the FITA in all cases. It might be for some age groups but not all. Thus you do not produce the best team with this method. The ranking round does matter a bunch...if you are last shooting against #1 then you are out in the first round. Hence if the teams are seeded based on the ranking round you want the best three archers out there. You hope they don't qualify in 8, 9 or 16th place. Of course for Jr Compound and Jr Recurve women there are only two slots to be had at the trials.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Landed in AZ said:


> Of course for Jr Compound and Jr Recurve women there are only two slots to be had at the trials.


There only two spots left for Jr Recurve Women because Miranda made the senior team. Junior Compound Women still have three. Kailey Johnson is a cadet and would have had to shoot cadet if she went to Italy for the senior world championships. The last I heard is that she opted out and will now have to compete for a spot on the Junior World Team. Kailey is another success story by shooting up.


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## underdog145 (Dec 6, 2009)

If I am right though Gary, The Senior worlds in Italy is the same conflicting dates as the JWT, so Kailey wont get to shoot for the Junior team.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

underdog145 said:


> If I am right though Gary, The Senior worlds in Italy is the same conflicting dates as the JWT, so Kailey wont get to shoot for the Junior team.


You are correct. My son's coach is going to be shooting @ Italy and will miss EJN/JWT.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Any juniors that made the senior team automatically get a spot on the junior world team in their perspective age group. Miranda is a junior and will be shooting on the junior team at the JWC. There is only two spots left for the junior recurve women. Kailey is a cadet but wants to shoot junior, so she had to opt out of the senior team. That is what I was told.

Gary


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

The ranking or qualification round places archers and teams into the match brackets. Ranking could be based on a 72 arrow round. World championships, world cups and the Olympic game focus in on match play at 70m (Cadet 60m) for recurve and 50m for compounds.
Having multiple trials rewards those that are perform well consistently and accounts for an archer that shoots beyond their capability for a magic moment. USAA senior teams have multiple outdoor team trials events. I wonder if it is practical to have multiple trials for world youth and indoor teams.

The 2011 EJN will be long days in warm humid temperatures. Perhaps in the future the EJN could be scheduled to be:

Practice day
72 arrow ranking round day
Individual elimination round day
Team round day (teams have a day to prepare)
Everyone will be much fresher for team rounds and individual matches by shooting 72 arrows to seed the brackets. It’s a dream I have.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Time to check and recheck the Sacramento CA weather forcasts
http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USCA0967
http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/sacramento/ext
http://www.hamweather.net/cgi-bin/h...country=us&county=06067&zone=caz017&icao=KSAC
http://www.accuweather.com/us/ca/sacramento/95814/forecast-month.asp?mnyr=7-01-2011


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

The 2011 EJN registrations show a significant increase in participants compared to the last time the JOAD nationals took place in the west. The 2011 EJN registrations are also well above the recent past eight year attendance average (Eight year average represents two regional location cycles.) Like the USAA JOAD indoor championship, EJN is the place where youth grassroots JOAD archery and USAA youth high performance come together.

Year, # of JOADs, Location
2011 260+? CA Sacramento

2010 209 IA De Moines
2009 259 PA
2008 199 OK OKC
2007 175 CA OTC
2006 229 OH
2005 213 FL Orlando
2004 264 GA Conyers
2003 274 CO Denver
8 year average of 228 per year.

2002 OH


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> The 2011 EJN registrations show a significant increase in participants compared to the last time the JOAD nationals took place in the west. The 2011 EJN registrations are also well above the recent past eight year attendance average (Eight year average represents two regional location cycles.) Like the USAA JOAD indoor championship, EJN is the place where youth grassroots JOAD archery and USAA youth high performance come together.
> 
> Year, # of JOADs, Location
> 2011 260+? CA Sacramento
> ...


Correction needed


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

And the average raises to 230

The 2011 EJN registrations show a significant increase in participants compared to the last time the JOAD nationals took place in the west. The 2011 EJN registrations are also well above the recent past eight year attendance average (Eight year average represents two regional location cycles.) Like the USAA JOAD indoor championship, EJN is the place where youth grassroots JOAD archery and USAA youth high performance come together.

Year, # of JOADs, Location
2011 260+? CA Sacramento

2010* 227* IA De Moines
2009 259 PA
2008 199 OK OKC
2007 175 CA OTC
2006 229 OH
2005 213 FL Orlando
2004 264 GA Conyers
2003 274 CO Denver
8 year average of *230* per year.

2002 OH


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Cincinnati 2002-almost 300 IIRC. 2006 was the year of big gas hikes-that cost us a bunch. Probably hurt Oka as well. Orlando was supposed to be an East Region tournament-no one in the East bid so Orlando got it.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Cincinnati 2002-almost 300 IIRC. 2006 was the year of big gas hikes-that cost us a bunch. Probably hurt Oka as well. Orlando was supposed to be an East Region tournament-no one in the East bid so Orlando got it.


Using 300 for 2002 and assuming 260 for 2011, the 10 year average with three events in the west, north and south regions and one event in the east region would rise to 240. About an 8% increase during a stressed economy. (Parents will spend $$$ for their kids!)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Parents will spend $$$ for their kids!


check that... well to do parents will spend $$$ for their kids. Archery is still a middle class and up sport. Meanwhile, the other half of the U.S. plays soccer, baseball or softball, closer to home. I know very few (10% or less) parents who would consider spending $1500+ to take their child to one archery tournament. I'd have taken every JOAD student I've had to JOAD Nationals if they could have made it for even a few hundred each. 

John


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> check that... well to do parents will spend $$$ for their kids. Archery is still a middle class and up sport. Meanwhile, the other half of the U.S. plays soccer, baseball or softball, closer to home. I know very few (10% or less) parents who would consider spending $1500+ to take their child to one archery tournament. I'd have taken every JOAD student I've had to JOAD Nationals if they could have made it for even a few hundred each.
> 
> John


We are in competition for the finite number of talented youths and their parents that are willing to support and travel. They could go to any other sport, but increasingly, they are coming to archery, which is great. 

The “…closer to home…” customers. A source of target archery growth! 
Would it make sense for the JOAD national championship for Bowmans and Cubs to be a two stage process. First trials events would in each region every year. There could be multiple regional events so that that all are within a days drive of a JOAD championship trials tourney (like indoor regional sites). 

The, top Bowman and Cub finishers in the JOAD championship regional trials would them meet in one place to decide the JOAD national championship. They would compete with the Cadets and Juniors at the JOAD national championship finals. Such a process would increase Bowman and Cub accessibility to national championship level competition. The format would be less expensive for some but more expensive for others. Bowman and Cub trials competition could also be more “fun” and personal achievement and teaching focused.

The current Bowman and Cub national competition calendar is sparse. In contrast Cadet and Junior have many competitions including; Cadet/Jr USAT qualifiers around the country and world team trials, in addition to the USAA/JOAD championships.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Bob,

As a parent of a Bowman archer, I'm extremely dismayed that Bowman and Cub divisions are pretty much ignored. In order to have my child gain experience in national and world level outdoor competitions, he's pretty much having to shoot as a Cadet. For age appropriate opportunities, you basically have indoor nationals, Vegas, and mail in that match the model that you're sort of looking for.

I am going to present the flip side. There are not too many kids of Bowman and Cub age that can realistically compete for a wide variety of reasons - mainly monetarily and familiarity. Demographically, a lot of Bowman and Cub shooters's parents are either not willing to or are still getting exposed to the system. Until they get familiar with the system, many won't commit to a larger tournament schedule other than what's extremely local. Many won't commit to funds until they see a level of success.

Archery is a very brutal darwinian sport (result wise) compared to other sports. Some parents don't like that.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> We are in competition for the finite number of talented youths and their parents that are willing to support and travel. They could go to any other sport, but increasingly, they are coming to archery, which is great.
> 
> The “…closer to home…” customers. A source of target archery growth!
> Would it make sense for the JOAD national championship for Bowmans and Cubs to be a two stage process. First trials events would in each region every year. There could be multiple regional events so that that all are within a days drive of a JOAD championship trials tourney (like indoor regional sites).
> ...


The LAST thing we need is more tournaments to qualify for. What would be better would be to have a fall series for the kids locally like you mention. Those that fall on top locally might seriously consider attending the big dance the following year. Face it, if you can afford it, tournaments are fun to go to. Otherwise, if you're not competitive (and not eveyone is going to be), some find that it's not worth the money. In that case, peopele can stick to the local stuff and wait untill the big shoots are worth going to.

One things for sure, not eveyone going to these tournaments is well to do....I can attest to that personally. Trust me, it's a HUGE sacrifice, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. Financial help is so scarce in this sport, it's all but non existant. Shamefull to be honest, and very angering.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Huntmaster said:


> The LAST thing we need is more tournaments to qualify for. What would be better would be to have a fall series for the kids locally like you mention. Those that fall on top locally might seriously consider attending the big dance the following year. Face it, if you can afford it, tournaments are fun to go to. Otherwise, if you're not competitive (and not eveyone is going to be), some find that it's not worth the money. In that case, peopele can stick to the local stuff and wait untill the big shoots are worth going to.
> 
> One things for sure, not eveyone going to these tournaments is well to do....I can attest to that personally. Trust me, it's a HUGE sacrifice, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. Financial help is so scarce in this sport, it's all but non existant. Shamefull to be honest, and very angering.


 The amount of funding has grown since the early 2000s when the majority of youth teams were self funded. It can never be enough. I suspect that Olympic archery will always be a sacrafice so long as the sport is limited. The desire must outweigh pain.

Certianlly the Junior and Cadet calendars are full. But what about Bowman and Cubs as Steve mentions?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> The amount of funding has grown since the early 2000s when the majority of youth teams were self funded. It can never be enough. I suspect that Olympic archery will always be a sacrafice so long as the sport is limited. The desire must outweigh pain.


I'm not talking just teams. There are still huge investments needed, and the archers are just not supported....at any level.



> Certianlly the Junior and Cadet calendars are full. But what about Bowman and Cubs as Steve mentions?


Here's the problem - There are no world competitions for those classes, nor do I think there should be. We never even started shooting NAA untill Miranda hit her last year as Cub (so her first competition year wouldn't be the first she'd have seen it). Otherwise, the NFAA offered all that we needed. We have a strong NFAA here, which has indoor, outdoor, field and 3D shoots all year long. Toss that in with one out-of-state trip to Louisville about every other year, and we had a full summer of shooting. We knew nothing bigger was on the horizon untill she aged into Cadet where she could make a world team, so I didn't even bother to spend the money untill the time came. Even then we avioded the shoots that didn't offer anthing in return. 

The NAA doesn't support local club building enough. Instead of multiple small clubs, they need to follow the NFAA's lead and build 50 state org's that operate as one parent when needed for National shoots. Local branches can sprout up to teach the individuals, but the state can hold the tournaments. The reason these small clubs don't thrive is because they have to be a further burdon on the members for money on top of the national membership dues. In order for clubs to thrive, it takes more than $20 a year from a hand full of kids to do the job. Build some larger state orgs that can afford to hold a tournament, and the kids will have a few tournaments to attend locally.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few more comments. 

1) I'd love to see the stats of the number of Bowman and Cub members. Locally, those two groups are the most populated divisions. 

2) It's time for the NAA to grow up. Kids are maturing in ability faster than before. Technology helps somewhat, but there seems to be an "attitude" where Bowmen and Cubs are pretty much ignored. 

I'll use the JOAD camps last year as a case in point. A bowman compound archer was nearly encouraged NOT to attend last year's camp in Chandler because it was thought that an 8 year old kid couldn't hang with the rest. That 8 year old outshot the field and got first place in the ranking round. 

That same kid (now 9) this year attended the 2011 Chandler camp with no issues or questions. 

3) If we want a talent pool to draw from, we better encourage things from as young as we can. It's unrealistic to expect the Khatuna's and Brady's to carry us. We need to work on the pipeline. 

4) NAA needs to be on the forefront and get the Compound JDT going. The world is catching up to us. We learned a hard lesson in Recurve. Will history repeat itself in Compound? 

I've even volunteered my time to Denise Parker in a willingness to help Dee Falks get a Compound JDT going. There seems to be too much effort on 2012 to where I'm afraid everything else will go by the wayside until after London is over. 

Anyhow, I'd be willing to move this off to its own thread. 

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> First trials events would in each region every year. There could be multiple regional events so that that all are within a days drive of a JOAD championship trials tourney (like indoor regional sites).


Bob, I seem to recall suggesting something like this years ago. It would make sense to me. I can tell you that the media is never impressed when your answer to the question "what does an archer have to do to qualify for nationals?" is essentially "nothing." 

IMO, any young archer should have to place in the top 3 in their respective state JOAD event to qualify for nationals. We could even attempt to have "teams" of 3 archers who represent their state and that way offer some significance to a team event at JOAD nationals.

As far as cost goes, the state association could then offer to help fund the travel to nationals for the representatives from the state teams. So long as it was understood that a portion of the state championship registration went to fund the teams to represent their state at nationals, I think that would be fair. It would also offer incentive for more kids to shoot at the state JOAD championships. 

The sport of target archery is a very expensive thing. Most families struggle to digest the cost of equipment alone, then the toll that travel takes is usually the knockout blow. I can think of many young and very talented archers who stopped shooting JOAD because they just could not afford it all. It had nothing to do with the archer's ability or potential, I can assure you. We need to find new and creative ways to keep the cost as low as possible, while still offering quality competition and avenues for advancement in the sport.

It's also very intimidating to new JOAD parents, especially those from working-class backgrounds, to attend JOAD events these days too. When many of the teenage archers have more expensive gear than I showed up with at the Olympic trials, it's a major turn-off for those just starting out. One of the reasons I try to champion the "do more with less" approach to target archery is to encourage those that are living paycheck-to-paycheck (like me) to see that you don't have to have the latest and greatest gear to still be competitive. 

Sorry, but this has always been a "don't-get-me-started" topic. Archery used to be more of a common person's sport. I guess that's just relegated to 3-D archery these days...

John


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> IMO, any young archer should have to place in the top 3 in their respective state JOAD event to qualify for nationals. We could even attempt to have "teams" of 3 archers who represent their state and that way offer some significance to a team event at JOAD nationals.
> 
> As far as cost goes, the state association could then offer to help fund the travel to nationals for the representatives from the state teams. So long as it was understood that a portion of the state championship registration went to fund the teams to represent their state at nationals, I think that would be fair. It would also offer incentive for more kids to shoot at the state JOAD championships.


I wholehearted agree with this statement. In most sports, there is a progression of achievement from state to regionals to nationals. This would also give archers the sense of representation of their state in national competition as well as put more value on state shoots. Instilling the sense that they've earned it as well as the obvious financial assistance to families.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

John,

A few more comments comparing Archery to other sports. It's interspersed with your commentary.

-Steve



limbwalker said:


> IMO, any young archer should have to place in the top 3 in their respective state JOAD event to qualify for nationals. We could even attempt to have "teams" of 3 archers who represent their state and that way offer some significance to a team event at JOAD nationals.


Personally, I agree fully. However, with virtual JOAD teams that abound in the United States, it would be really difficult to enforce that.



> As far as cost goes, the state association could then offer to help fund the travel to nationals for the representatives from the state teams. So long as it was understood that a portion of the state championship registration went to fund the teams to represent their state at nationals, I think that would be fair. It would also offer incentive for more kids to shoot at the state JOAD championships.


Part of me agrees with that. It would be nice for the top 3 to have some sort of funding. I will present a flip side....some kids don't want to travel to Nationals. So, what do you do then?



> The sport of target archery is a very expensive thing. Most families struggle to digest the cost of equipment alone, then the toll that travel takes is usually the knockout blow. I can think of many young and very talented archers who stopped shooting JOAD because they just could not afford it all. It had nothing to do with the archer's ability or potential, I can assure you. We need to find new and creative ways to keep the cost as low as possible, while still offering quality competition and avenues for advancement in the sport.


I still stay in the coaching ranks of youth baseball. Travel teams pay oodles of money for going to games out of state, sometimes way out there in terms of distance. In addition, the recent bat changes (for safety purposes) have required players to rebuy new equipment. I did a cost comparison between baseball and archery, and archery has a far better cost/benefit analysis than baseball does. People still go to baseball in droves.



> It's also very intimidating to new JOAD parents, especially those from working-class backgrounds, to attend JOAD events these days too. When many of the teenage archers have more expensive gear than I showed up with at the Olympic trials, it's a major turn-off for those just starting out. One of the reasons I try to champion the "do more with less" approach to target archery is to encourage those that are living paycheck-to-paycheck (like me) to see that you don't have to have the latest and greatest gear to still be competitive.


There are many ways to mitigate that. Speaking personally, I work for a shop in my off time, allowing me to buy equipment at a discount. My wife and I teach at the same shop I moonlight at, allowing our child to get free range time and no club fees. I judge at various events - allowing my own child to have free lodging (and my judging per diem usually pay for all of the entrance fees and food while traveling) and reducing the expense that my wife and I encur while traveling. As a parent, if my child wants to do it, I will try my damnedest to make it happen. 



> Sorry, but this has always been a "don't-get-me-started" topic. Archery used to be more of a common person's sport. I guess that's just relegated to 3-D archery these days...


Not really. 3D (at least in my neck of the woods) is extremely competitive. Even the bowhunter and hunter classes are having people show up with equipment that is a painful pocketbook expense.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Page 22 of this USA Archery magazine edition has some youth sports development information
http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/9235/USSA_Summer_2008.pdf

Membership participation in support and leadership roles is an ongoing need. Serving on USAA committees, task forces, tourneys, etc. is more than worthwhile. Those with ideas and the ability to follow thru and have the ability to collaborate can make a positive difference. 
Join the USAA, become an instructor and then a commuity coach, become a judge. Start and run a JOAD club. Embrace the committee conference call!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Bob, I seem to recall suggesting something like this years ago. It would make sense to me. I can tell you that the media is never impressed when your answer to the question "what does an archer have to do to qualify for nationals?" is essentially "nothing."
> 
> IMO, any young archer should have to place in the top 3 in their respective state JOAD event to qualify for nationals. We could even attempt to have "teams" of 3 archers who represent their state and that way offer some significance to a team event at JOAD nationals.
> 
> ...


the one problem with this suggestion is that some states are much stronger than others. For example, CJO has three double Gold Olympian Junior men's recurve archers. Each one of them has won a major national championship. Next year the fourth ranked kid in our club will be a boy who is currently a cadet and is an Olympian who has won several state titles. He is better than most of the other cadets in the North Region. Yet, I doubt he would place in the top three in the Ohio JOAD outdoor next year. If he lived in Kentucky or Indiana or Michigan or Tennessee or West Virgina etc he'd easily be in the top three. Same with the fourth place Cub in Ohio-the top three cubs finished top 12 in the National Indoor. 

As to 3-D John, the people buying the top of the line gear when I ran a shop was the 3-D set. Their advantage (in Ohio) is that there are 3D tournaments every weekend so they can shoot 20 tournaments a year without driving more than 50 miles from their home. 3D majors tend to be held in the areas where most of the archers are. Remind me how many target archers live a day's drive from Yanktown.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good points Jim. 

As for the "all from one state" issue, that's essentially what we see in collegiate archery. Same club has won the national title for how many years in a row? Essentially 4 or 5 powerhouse college archery programs show up each year. But there's always a chance that someone will come from out of nowhere - like Forrest did this year, from a never-heard-of junior college - to win it all. 

I think the format would be an interesting one, and it would give a lot more standing to two out of the three events - men's/womens team and mixed team. We need to be about spreading the experience around as broadly as possible, and if the same 4 or 5 top archers get to create the same teams every year, there is little incentive or chance for anyone else to compete.

You could have a "top 3" rule with exceptions for individuals who have shot qualifying scores.

Oh, and Jim, I doubt that a very high percentage of the working class folks who shot 3-D ever showed up in your shop looking for brand new gear. When I would go to 3-D events, 20% or so of those there were shooting the latest gear. Everyone else put together whatever they had available and whatever they could get in their kid's hands and went out and shot. A lot of families wouldn't have to spend more than $100 on a single 3-D tournament if they didn't want to, which is one reason it's grown to be so popular. A family can shoot 3-D with a few hundred dollars worth of archery equipment. Shooting only 1 arrow per target helps cut down on cost, and the fact that you can shoot a 3-D round with relatively inexpensive arrows helps too. The same family needs probably thousands of dollars worth of gear to shoot a fita event, just to be able to reach the distances with enough arrows, see with their scopes, etc., etc.

Beastmaster, I know 3-D has become far more competitive. Part of the reason is the money that's now offered for placements, contingency, etc. But let's face it - the 3-D crowd is a WHOLE different demographic than the fita crowd, and there is a reason.

John


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

One of my favorite subjects:
USAA committees like the JOAD committee members may serve up to 3, two year terms (6 years) Page 26 of the USAA Bylaws: http://assets.usoc.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/27945/USAA_Bylaws_07-8-2010.pdf That means that every six years or sooner, new member(s) rotate on to committees. Those with great ideas and the desire to help implement them may be interested in USAA committee service. 

I greatly enjoyed my time as a JOAD committee member. Knowing that that committee service is finite encourages committee members to get things done promptly. Serving for only a term or two is absolutely fine in my book. What it teaches is that a priority for a volunteer committee member is to be on the lookout for a replacement and when someone shows interest, help to mentor them. Another thing that committees need is diversity. Committees need varying points of view inside of a share desire to succeed.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

As over 260 USA Archery JOADs gather in Sacramento for the 2011 EJN, take advantage of the opportunity to reinforce “Sportsmanship”
Here are some materials with essential basic information http://www.teamusa.org/resources/u-s-olympic-education/real-athletes-are-good-sports

July 1, 2011 registration list as well as rules, team round and photo credential information have been posted on on the EJN webpage http://usarchery.org/events/6039


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> A family can shoot 3-D with a few hundred dollars worth of archery equipment. Shooting only 1 arrow per target helps cut down on cost, and the fact that you can shoot a 3-D round with relatively inexpensive arrows helps too. The same family needs probably thousands of dollars worth of gear to shoot a fita event, just to be able to reach the distances with enough arrows, see with their scopes, etc., etc.
> 
> Beastmaster, I know 3-D has become far more competitive. Part of the reason is the money that's now offered for placements, contingency, etc. But let's face it - the 3-D crowd is a WHOLE different demographic than the fita crowd, and there is a reason.
> 
> John


I have to say that 3D is much more family centric. I don't know about the sanctioned shoots (there isn't any FITA, IBO or ASA 3D in my area but lots of 3D club shoots at NFAA field archery ranges and such) but the club shoots allow families to all shoot together with what ever level of gear they want. And shooting simple trad gear is popular, especially at trad-only shoots. But then, I'm not talking about the same level of competitive shooting. Target archery is just a different beast, even if it uses the same skills.

I have to agree with Jim C about the size of states. US states vary radically in population, and in JOAD participation, so I don't think taking fixed numbers of top ranked shooters from each state will be in any way fair, or all that helpful. If JOAD nationals had an overwhelmingly large field I can see a need to pair down eligibility, but I'd want to see something that is more proportional.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Is it just me or does the weather forcast for the EJN and WAYCT look good.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> Is it just me or does the weather forcast for the EJN and WAYCT look good.


It looks great!

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> It looks great!
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


Maybe we should have a hot chocolate instead of ice cream...just kidding.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm bracing for a surprise thunderstorm. Aren't those required at every tournament?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

USAA has posted progression of OR information for Sunday on Facebook and Twitter. Cadets start first. Smaller categories start later.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

2011 JOAD Grand National Champions Crowned
http://usarchery.org/news/2011/07/11/joad-grand-national-champions-crowned/43450?ngb_id=21


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Big props to the kids at UC Berkeley's Archery team. They did on site babysitting of the field after hours, did ground crew work, and had a repair tent. They rocked!


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## GeorgD (Nov 18, 2002)

We were there and had a great time. If you were there my son Michael DeCosta was the young man on target 21 that shot the perfect score in the semi-final round. The one the announcer kept referring to. He was loving it...

The kids from Berkeley did a fantastic job. I also had a kid that shot Bowmen, which was right next to the UC Berkeley repair area and tent, those kids were really great, special thanks to all of them.

All and all we thought is was a great event.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

UC Berkeley's Archery Club provided around 15 volunteers on the field each day, providing whatever support was asked of them. We actually had a lot of fun ourselves, and it turned into real a bonding experience. I advertised the event to them as a sort of 4-day camping trip. The Wilderness JOAD Club kept us well supplied with food and drink, as well as a tent and cots for the night. We got to meet a lot of the JOAD kids and parents, who were all great. Many of our club members picked up archery only after they arrived in Berkeley as freshmen, so they did not know that this segment of the archery community even existed. If is important that everyone realizes that archery is a community that extends from JOAD, through college, and into adult ranks. I myself talked to many kids and parents about college, since I have been involved in the college admissions process at all levels for over 20 years. Our repair tent was able to provide some help to a few panicked kids and parents who needed emergency repairs. There were some people we couldn't help, like the poor fellow who needed a bow press, but we now have a much better idea of what else we need to bring the next time we do this.

At night, we provided security for the field, keeping the area patrolled at all times. FYI, after it gets dark, a LOT of skunks come out. I mean real skunks: the furry black and white ones that smell funny, not people we just don't like. The skunks went after the trash bins and food left on the ground, and we didn't argue with them. There were also rabbits, deer, and a few hobos (who were rather harmless). We also we able to get in quite a bit of shooting. Shooting at 3:00 AM under the glow of the tower lights was pretty surreal.


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## CarbonExtreme (Jul 7, 2010)

Where can I see results of this tournament? I emailed USA archery and have gotten no response


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Here is the link to all the scores except the Youth World Team Trials. Those are not posted anywhere yet.

http://www.ianseo.net/Details.php?toId=168


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## CarbonExtreme (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Casualfoto said:


> Here is the link to all the scores except the Youth World Team Trials. Those are not posted anywhere yet.
> 
> http://www.ianseo.net/Details.php?toId=168


USA Archery Twitter page has the unofficial results from Monday. 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A couple of more comments, interspersed...

-Steve



DK Lieu said:


> (snip)Our repair tent was able to provide some help to a few panicked kids and parents who needed emergency repairs. There were some people we couldn't help, like the poor fellow who needed a bow press, but we now have a much better idea of what else we need to bring the next time we do this.


I'll add to this story, mainly because I was involved in it first hand.

John Klus Jr. (the 10 year old Bowman Compound Male that got the Grand National Championship) had his bow sitting on the ground on a bow pod when the string literally popped off the cam peg.

My son Spencer (who took third in the same division) came running up and down the field trying to find me. Another archer was able to get a Ratchet-Lok bow press, and I was able to put the bow back together, but the Buss cable was so stretched out from the string pop that there was no way I could get the bow into proper time. (Isn't it amazing that 30-40# bow limbs, with all that stored energy, can stretch a 8125 cable with nearly an inch of unrecoverable stretch/creep?)

My son took his primary bow (A Hoyt Ruckus) and gave it to John to shoot, and relied on shooting an (as of then) tournament untested Hoyt UltraTec derived Frankenbow in order to see a competitor have a fighting chance. Other parents (including the parents of the second place winner in the same division) took my son's primary bow, set up the draw length and peep height, and John went to the practice field to get it ready and sight in.

As a dad, that particular moment gave me more pride than seeing my son on the podium - at that moment, he matured so much as an archer, it wasn't funny.

John was able to get his bow back into shape for the Saturday and Sunday shoots. Wilderness Archery had to build him new strings and cables from scratch, but did so in 4 hours.

On a side note, my son was in John's position in the 2010 Arizona State Indoor Championships, in which he had an equipment failure (strings/cables caused an out of time cam issue) and no other competitor helped him out, even though other people had bows that he could have shot. My son has vowed never to let others be in that situation if he could help it.



> At night, we provided security for the field, keeping the area patrolled at all times. FYI, after it gets dark, a LOT of skunks come out. I mean real skunks: the furry black and white ones that smell funny, not people we just don't like. The skunks went after the trash bins and food left on the ground, and we didn't argue with them. There were also rabbits, deer, and a few hobos (who were rather harmless). We also we able to get in quite a bit of shooting. Shooting at 3:00 AM under the glow of the tower lights was pretty surreal.


You could smell skunks around. At the Ramada Limited, there was a family of skunks living in the bushes as well...again, you could smell them as well.

Rabbits also were running around behind the target bales in the practice and primary fields. I was waiting for someone to try and go after them. Thankfullly, no one did.

As for the "Urban Campers" (Tom Green's description of the vagabonds that were roaming the field), they didn't present themselves except to snag the empty water bottles and cans that were in the trash bins.

Again - I want to say that your kids did a killer job working out there. They did everything that was asked of them, cheerfully and willingly. 

-Steve


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Beastmaster said:


> I'll add to this story, mainly because I was involved in it first hand.
> 
> John Klus Jr. (the 10 year old Bowman Compound Male that got the Grand National Championship) had his bow sitting on the ground on a bow pod when the string literally popped off the cam peg.
> 
> ...


Steve... That's a great story!


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

The most amazing thing about the tournament was the huge crowd and the smack of all the arrows hitting the target.

The food at the tournament was the best and healthiest fast food you ever tasted. Wilderness Archery did a great job with that.

Rachel and I had lots of fun, especially getting to know some of the other kids and parents and coaches and are looking forward to more of these kinds of events.

Thanks to all of you who officiated and put the tournament together. Well done!


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Beastmaster said:


> Rabbits also were running around behind the target bales in the practice and primary fields. I was waiting for someone to try and go after them. Thankfullly, no one did.
> 
> -Steve


I know the Cadet compound shooters noticed a few huge ones. We were all wanting a sight mark to go after them. One of the only places I can think of where you see a bunny and the first words we hear are "lets shoot it". lol


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

> John Klus Jr. (the 10 year old Bowman Compound Male that got the Grand National Championship) had his bow sitting on the ground on a bow pod when the string literally popped off the cam peg.
> 
> My son Spencer (who took third in the same division) came running up and down the field trying to find me. Another archer was able to get a Ratchet-Lok bow press, and I was able to put the bow back together, but the Buss cable was so stretched out from the string pop that there was no way I could get the bow into proper time. (Isn't it amazing that 30-40# bow limbs, with all that stored energy, can stretch a 8125 cable with nearly an inch of unrecoverable stretch/creep?)
> 
> ...


I love this story and this is what is RIGHT with JOAD and most of the parents and participants. I am one of the coaches for the kid that finished second and this makes me more proud than his second place finish. From day one we teach archery is not a zero sum game. Shoot the very best that you can then we can all have a good day. We also teach that we want to win but when the others are shooting their best, because that is the only way we get better. Glad to see John do so well and have help when his bow had issues. I know Tristan is better for helping and shooting against a very good archer.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Beastmaster said:


> I'll add to this story, mainly because I was involved in it first hand.
> 
> John Klus Jr. (the 10 year old Bowman Compound Male that got the Grand National Championship) had his bow sitting on the ground on a bow pod when the string literally popped off the cam peg.
> 
> ...


Steve... Your son may want to save this story for his college application essays. I've been involved in just about every aspect of the admissions process here for over 20 years. The readers in the Undergraduate Admissions Office go ga-ga over stories like this. It demonstrates maturity and a sense of responsibility and fairness well beyond his age.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

EJN and WAYCT stories on www.usarchery.org 
Great coverage!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

DK Lieu said:


> Steve... Your son may want to save this story for his college application essays. I've been involved in just about every aspect of the admissions process here for over 20 years. The readers in the Undergraduate Admissions Office go ga-ga over stories like this. It demonstrates maturity and a sense of responsibility and fairness well beyond his age.


Dennis, 

Thank you for the recommendation! College applications definitely have changed over the years, so it's great to get this type of advice.

-Steve


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Which would be fine if we knew that only your archers would be the ones selected. I think you miss the point just slightly...
> 
> You need a trials process that SELECTS based on the format. A single distance format will favor certain archers over others. How would we know if an archer has issues at the other three distances (ESPECIALLY 90 meters for the young men!) if we don't ask them to shoot it?
> 
> ...


John, I think if you look across the board at the FITA results from Nationals you will find that your post is supported by the results. Clearly a different picture.


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