# Bow length VS Riser length



## ScarletArrows

draw length


----------



## OldSchoolNEO

ScarletArrows said:


> draw length


But, how would you build your bow...

Say your DL dictates that you should use a 70" bow, do you go with...

25" riser with long limbs

or 

27" riser with medium limbs

Then, why would you choose one over the other?


----------



## zal

I choose 25" because 99% of good scores, 99% of international medals and 99% of world records have been shot with it.

My draw length is about 33".


----------



## Shinigami3

zal said:


> I choose 25" because 99% of good scores, 99% of international medals and 99% of world records have been shot with it.
> 
> My draw length is about 33".


Interesting logic... since 99% or more of shooters don't draw that far...


...just sayin'...


----------



## wildjim

Borderbows said:


> what do you feel makes you choose a 23" riser from a 25" riser... or a 25" riser to a new 27"?


I chose two 25" risers with short limbs for 66" bows while considering 28" draw length, charts, forum commentary and observation rather than experience ; )


----------



## jmvargas

my DL is 28 3/4" and i have tried a 25" riser with short,medium,and long limbs....

the short limbs(vectors and samick extremes) were fast but unforgiving and stacked a bit.

the long limbs(pse pro-elites) were really smooth and great for indoor and up to 70M..

i had medium vectors,xpressions,M1s,winacts,samick extremes,winex and now use borders HEX5-H mk2 and CXG medium limbs...

i will probably be sticking with my 25" x-factor risers and borders combination for a long time as this combo gives me the best performance with regards to speed,smoothness and stability...

i also have a 23" elan but don't use it for fita target as i have no sightline at 18M with this riser...i plan to put my short sky conquest carbons on it and maybe use it for hunting...


----------



## wildjim

jmvargas said:


> my DL is 28 3/4" and i have tried a 25" riser with short,medium,and long limbs....
> 
> the short limbs(vectors and samick extremes) were fast but unforgiving and stacked a bit.
> 
> the long limbs(pse pro-elites) were really smooth and great for indoor and up to 70M..
> 
> i had medium vectors,xpressions,M1s,winacts,samick extremes,winex and now use borders HEX5-H mk2 and CXG medium limbs...
> 
> i will probably be sticking with my 25" x-factor risers and borders combination for a long time as this combo gives me the best performance with regards to speed,smoothness and stability...
> 
> i also have a 23" elan but don't use it for fita target as i have no sightline at 18M with this riser...i plan to put my short sky conquest carbons on it and maybe use it for hunting...


And the medium limbs are just right!

Seems like The Three Bears story ; )


----------



## jmvargas

kinda!...he he he!!

i actually started with the 25" riser and medium limbs combo and wanted to try the short and long limbs along the way......and ended back with the original combo...


----------



## OldSchoolNEO

jmvargas said:


> ... as this combo gives me the best performance with regards to speed,smoothness and stability...


At the end of the day, this is all that really matters!


----------



## zal

Shinigami3 said:


> Interesting logic... since 99% or more of shooters don't draw that far...
> 
> 
> ...just sayin'...


You're saying that in those 40+ years of olympic archery when there have been bows to max length 70" there haven't been any archers with similar draw lengths to me?

I tried 72" and saw no improvements, only few aspects that I deemed harming to my shooting.


----------



## BloodyCactus

I went with a 23" riser and med limbs to get 66", because if I went with a 25" + shorts, I'd be prone to stacking is what I was told.. sent with with a best zenit 23"...


----------



## limbwalker

Zal, in all the years of Olympic archery, I can tell you that VERY few archers have ever had a 33" draw length. I am one of the few I know of that has drawn past 32". Myself and one of the fellows from Sweden had the longest draw length in Athens. 

Of course, like you, I shot a 70" bow for years. However, after finally setting up my 27" Bernardini Luxor for a full Olympic bow (I've been using it only for barebow until now) and shooting it for a while, I am beginning to realize the benefit of a 72" bow for my 32.5" draw length. It is a much better feeling at the clicker for me and routinely easier for me to achieve good shot execution with more forgiveness and less finger pinch by the string. 

I have tried to go back and shoot my 70" Axis riser/Masters limbs combo since, and I can immediately tell the difference. So for me at least, it will be a 72" oly. bow from now on...

To answer the OP question, I don't think there is a "magic" formula for most average draw lengths and without being rude - I don't think most archers will ever be able to tell the difference in performance between a 70" bow that is made up of a 25" riser vs. a 27" riser. You would have to have the standing side-by-side to tell, and rarely does anyone have that luxury. 

The body is an amazing thing. You will become accustomed to whatever you are shooting within just a few days. Starting out, I shot a 68" bow - 25" handle and medium limbs - at my 32.5" draw length. I shot it just fine. Of course, the 70" bow is smoother, and the 72" bow is smoother still, but without having them side by side to compare, it is almost impossible to tell the difference in practical terms. 

So I would suggest just going by the general rule of thumb recommendations for total bow length, then getting whatever riser/limb combo you think you want. Then don't sweat the details.

The only advantage I can see to using a 27" riser to build a 70" bow is that you will be using medium limbs, and there are more medium limbs out there on the used market than shorts or longs... So from a practical standpoint, it may be less expensive down the road.

John.


----------



## Borderbows

Limbwalker...
I think you have hit on something.... I think your also dead on the money.
Drawlength is a good factor too.

First of all, you need a full size sight window... or else your in trouble...
you need room for limb attachments.or else you hit trouble...

and you also need a smooth draw and good string angles...

So the smooth draw and string angles are two different areas.
string angle is bow length, and smoothness is linked but not 100% related.

I would say that the shortest riser you can get away with for most occasions is a 25" riser, and to achieve good limb mass to stored energy, the bow lengths were born.

the question is, if you had a maga smooth bow, would you go for a shorter bow? loosing string angles, but improving speed...
or would you opt for a longer riser, shorter limb? keeping string angles but holding speed gains back.

Looking at finger shot compounds, they went shorter bow lengths... would you?
have they gone shorter due to accessability to finger compatable bows, or does it work, for example would a 68" ATA finger shot compound work better?

If the paradigm of smoothness has shifted, from 20" on average, to 26", then would you want a shorter limb, longer riser?


----------



## limbwalker

Fortunately for me, speed is never an issue. At 32.5" and 45+#, I can get just about any arrow to 90 meters comfortably with my sight fully extended. That is a luxury that some don't have, which is the only reason I'd sacrifice smoothness for speed. I don't believe the trade off is worth it unless you simply must look there to solve the problem of reaching a distance without having to pull in a sight. But then, there are so many other ways to solve this problem before switching riser/limb lengths, and even then there is no guarantee that going to a longer riser and shorter limbs will really gain you that much anyway.

John.


----------



## InKYfromSD

Borderbows said:


> Limbwalker...
> 
> 
> Looking at finger shot compounds, they went shorter bow lengths... would you?
> have they gone shorter due to accessability to finger compatable bows, or does it work, for example would a 68" ATA finger shot compound work better?


A 68" ATA bow would make a good compound bow for fingers. The problem is only finger shooters would buy it. I love my old 48" ProVantage and ProStar compounds because they're long ATA and have round wheels. Manufacturers develop and sell what appeals to the masses and there aren't masses of people shooting compounds with fingers. Using compounds in this discussion is invalid unless you include people shooting recurves with a release and the combinations that they prefer, IMHO.


----------



## Harperman

limbwalker said:


> Fortunately for me, speed is never an issue. At 32.5" and 45+#, I can get just about any arrow to 90 meters comfortably with my sight fully extended. That is a luxury that some don't have, which is the only reason I'd sacrifice smoothness for speed. I don't believe the trade off is worth it unless you simply must look there to solve the problem of reaching a distance without having to pull in a sight. But then, there are so many other ways to solve this problem before switching riser/limb lengths, and even then there is no guarantee that going to a longer riser and shorter limbs will really gain you that much anyway.
> 
> John.


.....To play the archery games that I play, and having a short draw length, I've often wondered what it would be like to have a long riser, say a 27" Luxor, and a set of Extra-Short limbs (to make a 66" bow)??...I had a set of Win&Win Extra Short Winact's once, but didnt have a 25" riser at that time (that I can remember??) to play with...I've since sold those limbs, (allthough I would love to have them back), and have shot Short limbs, and a 23", 24"or 25" riser...My draw length seems to be shrinking, I used to be just a tick over 27", I measured it at 26 1/2" on Saturday...Maybe I could get Sid at Border to build me a set of Extra Short limbs??....I always liked my long riser/short limb Compounds, maybe this is a viable set-up with the OLY. Recurves as well??...Take Care....Harperman


----------



## SBills

For myself shooting barebow and only having a 29" draw I could easily get by with a 68" bow. But when stringwalking I wanted a longer bow to minimize the tiller effect on the longer crawls so I decided to try 70". Since shooting barebow my thinking is that a longer riser should stabilize better and be more resistant to torque so I opted for a 27" luxor and medium limbs.

Sure wish I had more money and time to play with other combination. Maybe in time.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau

With mechanical advantage considerations in mind, wouldn't a 68" ATA compound require a mega draw length? Either that or very short stiff limbs.


----------



## Borderbows

i was using the 68" compound as a thought provoker on the finger pinch issues... anyhow.

We do make extrashorts, shorts, meduims, longs, and extra longs. we also make half sizes. so you could have a 65" bow on a 25" riser... but keeping with the thread.

I would have said that a string walker would also want long limbs to help cut down the deflection difference between crawls.

for example (taking a daft extreme example) lets look at a bow with 2" limbs, on a 70" long riser. making a 74" bow. It conforms to the long bow, but a slight difference in crawl point would give a vast difference in limb/riser angle.
if you want.

If you shoot a normal fita then the "crawl point" becomes static ... so you can afford to loose some of this crawl forgiveness.

So, why choose a 25" riser for a set bow size?

for me its the cross over point is smoothness vs bow length, without compromising window size, and allow for room to bolt the bow togther.

for example a 1 peice bow would allow for a shorter bow, with the same length working limb, and still keep your window size. as you could go from window straight into limb, opposed to window, Bolt area, working limb.


----------



## zal

Still, 27" is extremely unproven, and if you put all current models side to side, you'll see that the geometry is very different in each of them.

Which one has it right? I don't want to be the one to find out. Maybe after 5 years we know more.


----------



## Borderbows

zal said:


> Still, 27" is extremely unproven, and if you put all current models side to side, you'll see that the geometry is very different in each of them.
> 
> Which one has it right? I don't want to be the one to find out. Maybe after 5 years we know more.


Zal, i see your point, but doesnt it also depend on the archer using it... afterall, the top guys could shoot a broom stick well, and this is all down to form and personal confidence. 

How can you have confidence in your kit if you dont understand the pro's and cons of the gear you have chosen, other than everyone else uses it...

Also, if you look at the geom of 25" risers you will find a few differences too... How did you choose yours.

For example the fiberbow is considerbly more deflexed (grip infront of the limb pockets), this adds to stability, but can rob speed.
did anyone consider this when they bought such a radical riser???

I would say that the fiberbow riser is more radical than a CNC 27".


----------



## zal

Borderbows said:


> Also, if you look at the geom of 25" risers you will find a few differences too... How did you choose yours.


Easy, I took the most proven. That's why I shoot Samick Ultra.

Not to mention that it just feels so much better than anything I've shot before that its almost uncanny.


----------



## jmvargas

sid...i chose my combination based on what me and my coach knew had been proven to work and considering the available technology at the time(2004)---the main determining factor being my draw length...

....but that's just me..


----------



## SBills

The geometry tweaks of the Luxor are one reason I chose it. That being with the grip slightly above center, on longer crawls the limbs should be somewhat balanced in relation to the finger placement on the string.


----------



## Arrowinten

*short bow vs longer bow*

I have a few thoughts on this subjest, so if I may:
1. The bow, consisting of riser and limbs is human made  and thus subject to flaws. Therefore, theoretically, the longer the bow the more prone to flaws it is. Just a rugh example, in our club along the years only 68# and 70# limbs have ever broken, never a 66#, and no 23# riser ever cracked.
2. From another point of view, a good bow needs to be stable, and from my eperience I can say that a longer bow is more stable than a short one and much easier to tune. To ilustrate this, imagine a short car going over a speed bump and compere it with a limo going over the same speed bump. In which car, if sitting in the middle, the bump is felt the most. Surely, if you sit in the center of the limo you might not feel the bump at all; and also the confort zone in the center of the limo is much longer than in the short car. By analogy, a longer bow has a wider confort zone (pressure area on the grip and nocking point on the string) than a short one, and thus is more forgiving;
3. Having concluded that a longer bow is better, we need to choose how to obtain that extra lenght: a) longer limbs, or b) longer riser 
a) Longer limbs: A good pair of limbs need to be perfectly matched, first of all, and this is very difficult to obtain. Again back to theory: if we look for two identical pieces of any material (nature or man made), the smaller they are, the more chances we have to find such a pair. So, it is much more easy to produce two perfectly matched short limbs, than it is to produce two perfectly matched longer limbs. Secondly, the longer the limb, the more it is prone to twisting, diminishing accuracy;
b) Longer riser: A good riser must be straight, well balanced, doesn't twist under tension from high poundage limbs, has an equal reaction on the upper and lower limbs when the string is released. Considering todays technologies (CNC, forging + CNC, and carbon riser) it is much easyer too make a good long riser than it was 10-15 years ago and certainly it is much easier to produce a good long riser than a perfectly matched pair of long limbs.

Considering these arguments, if I would need a 70# bow, I would choose a 27# riser and 68# limbs, because statistically you have more chances of obtaing better results.

P.S. Any bow manufacturers on this forum, please explain if my reasoning is wrong.


----------



## tunedlow

limbwalker said:


> Zal, in all the years of Olympic archery, I can tell you that VERY few archers have ever had a 33" draw length. I am one of the few I know of that has drawn past 32". Myself and one of the fellows from Sweden had the longest draw length in Athens.
> 
> Of course, like you, I shot a 70" bow for years. However, after finally setting up my 27" Bernardini Luxor for a full Olympic bow (I've been using it only for barebow until now) and shooting it for a while, I am beginning to realize the benefit of a 72" bow for my 32.5" draw length. It is a much better feeling at the clicker for me and routinely easier for me to achieve good shot execution with more forgiveness and less finger pinch by the string.
> 
> I have tried to go back and shoot my 70" Axis riser/Masters limbs combo since, and I can immediately tell the difference. So for me at least, it will be a 72" oly. bow from now on...
> 
> To answer the OP question, I don't think there is a "magic" formula for most average draw lengths and without being rude - I don't think most archers will ever be able to tell the difference in performance between a 70" bow that is made up of a 25" riser vs. a 27" riser. You would have to have the standing side-by-side to tell, and rarely does anyone have that luxury.
> 
> The body is an amazing thing. You will become accustomed to whatever you are shooting within just a few days. Starting out, I shot a 68" bow - 25" handle and medium limbs - at my 32.5" draw length. I shot it just fine. Of course, the 70" bow is smoother, and the 72" bow is smoother still, but without having them side by side to compare, it is almost impossible to tell the difference in practical terms.
> 
> So I would suggest just going by the general rule of thumb recommendations for total bow length, then getting whatever riser/limb combo you think you want. Then don't sweat the details.
> 
> The only advantage I can see to using a 27" riser to build a 70" bow is that you will be using medium limbs, and there are more medium limbs out there on the used market than shorts or longs... So from a practical standpoint, it may be less expensive down the road.
> 
> John.


Limbwalker -is it a general rule that anyone with a greater than 28" draw length (mine is 30") should be shooting with long limbs on a 25" riser?


----------

