# Is my new Fiberbow dead?



## CapnKilo (Oct 13, 2012)

Hi all -

Earlier this week, my new Fiberbow finally arrived. I shot it for a couple of hours and really love it. Tonight I took the limbs off and saw the cracks that you see in the pictures below. I don't know much about carbon bows, but it seems to me it's no longer safe to shoot. I'm going to take it to the shop on Monday, but I was wondering if anyone else had an opinion. I'd appreciate any thoughts!

Thanks, 
Keith


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

I wouldnt use it dosent look too good


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## ladyeclectic (Dec 10, 2012)

Oy.

You bought that NEW or new-to-you?


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## deadeyedickwc (Jan 10, 2010)

doesnt look good


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

If that's a new bow and that just happened then its a quality issue. Have to ask though, did you dry fire it or maybe not have the dovetail on the limb all the way in when you strung and shot it?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

if it's "new" send it back.

If it's used, simply repair it. It may take a little work in vacuum bagging it, but it would be worth the effort.

You probably don't have to vacuum bag it but that would ensure getting epoxy into the deep cracks of the riser.


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## CapnKilo (Oct 13, 2012)

Hi all -

Thanks for the replies. No, I didn't dry fire it, but I did transport it to the range and back while strung, which may not have been a good idea. It was in the back of my car, but I don't think anything hit it. The limbs are fine, no marks, cracks, etc. so any issues seem to be just in the riser. It is a new bow, I got it from Lancaster. I'm curious about the repair suggestion though -- I'm not sure how I would begin to go about that. Hopefully I can get a new one, but if they really are that fragile, maybe I should stick with aluminum. My injured bow shoulder sure does like it though...

Keith


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Vacuum bagging is the technique that's used for crating carbon fiber, fiberglass laminates. You do your layup with your material/epoxy and pull a vacuum on the entire setup. There is a bag that surrounds the product and mold with an attachment for a vacuum pump. Pull a vacuum, the air is pulled out and epoxy forced into all the voids.

It can be a pain but it could also repair the riser. Before I went that route, I'd give Lancaster a call and see what they can do...very well may be covered under warranty.

As you found out, keeping it strung while traveling isn't a good idea. Get yourself a take down bow case and use that...even wrapping the limbs and riser in a towel is better than letting it slide around in the car.


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi, If the riser is made of carbon fiber don't even bother to fix it with epoxy. Epoxy is not nearly as strong as Caron Fiber. From the
photos it looks like this is very bad quality if this is a new riser. For the price you paid for it you are entitled to better quality.The whole
pocket section is delaminating badly. Just tell Lancaster to send you a new one.
Norman


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

there are more than just one kind of epoxy...would it make you feel better if I just said, "resin"?

The OP has 2 choices and that would be to have see if the damage would be covered by warranty or not. If not, there are two choices, repair it or throw it away...throwing it away isn't much of a choice.

Vacuum bagging with regular 2ton epoxy will work but, yes, there are other choices such as Defcon products.

as mentioned in my prior post, getting with Lancaster would be my first choice.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

you need to call lancaster, asap. i had limbs blow up 11months after i got them and they had new limbs to my doorstep before i even sent the old ones back.

like the others said, they will take care of it.

transporting it to the range is not leaving it in a hot car all day. any bow should be able to survive what you were doing. theres an obvious flaw there; my guess is lancaster is going to have you a new riser pretty quickly.

good luck.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Lancaster is usually really good about handling these types of issues....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm shocked that the dovetail itself is carbon. That is definitely not a place I would want to use that sort of material. I know they are going for light weight, but there comes a point where durability is suspect.

-Grant


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## agillator (Sep 11, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I'm shocked that the dovetail itself is carbon. That is definitely not a place I would want to use that sort of material. I know they are going for light weight, but there comes a point where durability is suspect.
> 
> -Grant


+1. I would return the riser as a defective design, not just a defective riser. The dove-tail slots should have been metal. 

Perhaps there is a retrofit available somewhere.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

The FB 6.3 and the previous 5.99 risers have exctly the same dovetail in the carbon, and as far as manufacturer declares, there have been very few failures in that area in more than 5 years of sales. These have happened mainly because the limbs bots have been used unloaded too much (there is a warning label inside the box to prevent to do so) or string has broken at release. 
The 6.3 riser has been used by Oscar De Pellegrin to win the individual Gold Medal at Paralympic Games in London 2012 and by Matteo Fissore for his third place at Indoor World Cup final in Las Vegas 2012, while 5.99 riser has been used by Mauro Nespoli to win Silver Medal with team in Beijing 2008 Olympic Games. Wide range of poundages, and wide range of limbs have been used up to now on FB risers without any dovetail problem, as far as I know. I have presently one Lady and one girl in my club using the 6.3 riser and they have changed limbs already several times among different brands (Hoyt 990, W&W EX Power, SF ) without any problem.

Anyhow, logical suggestion is to return the riser to Lancaster with detailed explanation of the failure. They will contact manufacturer and answer you in few days, for sure.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

I know of one company that has fixed so many Fiber Bows because of problems with pockets and so on that they now refuse to fix any more.

The whole concept of the Fiber Bow being light weight is a great idea and allows a lot more archers to shoot who would struggle to shoot with a standard metal riser but they just don't seem to have got it right yet.

Not as light as the Fiber bow but new to the market is the Uukha UproLite riser it looks nicely made although I have not seen one in person yet.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

That's the weak point in Fiberbows, like Vittorio said, even the manufacturers know it. You're better off with limbs preloaded a bit, if you leave the bolts too far it will cork either the bolt or the pocket. Happened few times with the early models, haven't seen it too much these days, but haven't seen many fiberbows around either lately, so maybe that's the reason.

And NO, don't even try to attempt to fix it, in best case you will just void the warranty, in the worst case it will explode on shot at some point and something will take your eye out. This is exactly why warranty and customer protection was invented in the first place.


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

Providing the dovetail slots as part of the carbon fiber construction does not seem to be a responsible design. Especially, since this seems to be a product that is outsourced manufactured (China?) by Fiberbow, and not made themselves, meaning that they are not involved in the manufacturing quality control. I would not use or attempt to repair this riser. I would not replace it with another one of the same design. The Uukha carbon riser (made by Uukha in France) uses a proper dovetail construction.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

DWAA Archer said:


> I know of one company that has fixed so many Fiber Bows because of problems with pockets and so on that they now refuse to fix any more.


I think you need to say how many they fixed.... facts not hearsay please?

Beyond that - send it back for replacement.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

hooktonboy said:


> Beyond that - send it back for replacement.


And consider the Uukha. The metal dovetail makes much more sense. The CF dovetail looks to be just asking for problems.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

the win/win rcx-100 is the same weight as the uukha lite (and hoyt horizon for what its worth) and also uses a metal dove tail.

i think border fixed one FB and it took a ton of time and money (turned out great though from the pics i recall seeing) and werent up to doing it again.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

If Brand New, don't touch it... just call Lancaster and get an RMA. Seems to be a manufacturer's defect. Carbon Fiber, if made properly shouldn't crack and chip that way; there may have been some voids.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Fiberbow is an expensive riser and its very low weight (just over 600 grams) comes in exchange of some choices at limit of present technology, like the dovetail in the carbon and the slim aluminum bolts. But you can adjust the riser to your needs by diffeent ways. 
Not many know for instance that factory can provide as option special eccentric stainless steel bolts with 5/16 threaded hole to replace the original aluminum bolts. Using them you can get a very nice balance of the riser, as they add 26 gr on top and on bottom of the riser, that looks nothing but really changes the feeling of the riser. Not last, said special bolts can accept dedicated Satinless steel bare Bow weight that perfectly fit over them, adding 165 gr to the bow. Good for hunting or Bare Bow shooting.

I have discussed several times with designer his choice of the dovetail in the carbon, but he said me that making an aluminum dovetail insert is easy in molded carbon fiber+epoxi risers, but in the FB carbon fiber mesh based pocket structure means to make it weaker than now.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Vittorio said:


> I have discussed several times with designer his choice of the dovetail in the carbon, but he said me that making an aluminum dovetail insert is easy in molded carbon fiber+epoxi risers, but in the FB carbon fiber mesh based pocket structure means to make it weaker than now.


Sounds like the all carbon dovetail was something that made you wonder about its strength and durability. I"m not a mechanical engineer, so I don't have a good knowlege of all the strengths and weaknesses of CF, and intution can give false results. Did the designer say what the comparative strength of a CF dovtail was versus an aluminum one? Not the strength of trying to meld aluminum to CF, but the independent strength? How much does the apparent brittleness of the CF dovetail affect the strength? Or is that just a manufactoring defect? :dontknow: That the dovetail in the photo is cracked could be from either or both issues.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

hooktonboy said:


> I think you need to say how many they fixed.... facts not hearsay please?
> 
> Beyond that - send it back for replacement.


Talk to Sid at Border Bows if you want facts.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

DWAA Archer said:


> Talk to Sid at Border Bows if you want facts.


LOL! Great answer...

Ryan.B has read the same stuff as me then. I read it that they fixed one - although I also recall it wasn't for damage that looked anything like that - it was more about an alignment issue. And the modification did look a very high-quality job.

It seemed to me that you were implying it was huge numbers... and it clearly wasn't.

The OPs photo looks like a manuf fault - never seen an FB look like that before. Getting it replaced is the key thing... every manuf seems to have the occasional problem.


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

hooktonboy said:


> The OPs photo looks like a manuf fault - never seen an FB look like that before. Getting it replaced is the key thing... every manuf seems to have the occasional problem.


Depends on the penalty for the occasional problem. If the riser fails at the limb pocket at full draw, the result could be serous injury. I would not be comfortable of replacing this riser with another one of the same construction.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As clearly visible by pictures, the breaking is inside the pocket area so is not effecting at all the structure or the safety of the riser. It could happen because of bolt too much unloaded, very low/wrong brace height on very recurve limbs, string break, improper pulling out or forcing in of the limbs, or by manufacturing defect because of bad glueing of the fiber layers in those areas. The fact that it happened on BOTH pockets at the same time let me think to improper use rather than defect, as it should be quite strange to have same defect on same areas on both pockets of same riser. Anyhow, everything can happen, so better buyer to return it asking for replacement and manufacturer making an analysis on it. Curious to know what limbs have been used on this riser, what string lenght and what brace height.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Woven carbon composites have very good structural properties, but their properties are also very anisotropic (dependent on direction). The material is strongest and stiffest in the direction of the fibers. Material is not so strong in the direction perpendicular to the woven fibers, since there are no fibers to reinforce that direction. Essentially, the only thing holding the layers together is the resin. This is not necessarily a bad thing, if stresses are not extraordinarily high in that direction. In the dovetail slot area of the riser, only compressive stresses should exist during normal use of the bow. From the photos, which show voids and cracks between layers, it appears that the failure was compressive in nature between the layers. This is rather surprising, since the material should have been strong enough survive the expected compressive stresses in normal use. My best guess is that the failure was due to a manufacturing or process defect, such as a void in the resin or a wrinkle in the weave, and not a design defect. Perhaps the manufacturer is having difficulty saturating the fibers in that area during the fabrication process. In any event, the part is unacceptable, and I would just send it back and ask for a replacement. Putting the dovetail groove directly into the carbon does not appeal to me. Essentially this arrangement exposes the ends of the carbon fibers to wear (from the steel dovetail in the limbs), and carbon composites typically do not do well in this situation. Eventually the fibers will start to fray. Since I assemble and disassemble my bow every time I use it, I prefer a nice steel receiver for the dovetail groove in my riser. If the bow is left assembled most of the time, it probably doesn't make much difference.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

hooktonboy said:


> LOL! Great answer...
> 
> Ryan.B has read the same stuff as me then. I read it that they fixed one - although I also recall it wasn't for damage that looked anything like that - it was more about an alignment issue. And the modification did look a very high-quality job.
> 
> ...


Well I had a look around online for fiberbow. Sid has fixed 9 So far I don't how many he has turned away also looking at the dates of some of the posts on various forums there has been problems with this type of riser going back to 2005 we are at the end of 2012 and still people are having problems.

To me this looks like a manufacturer who has an ongoing problem that it has not been able to resolve. If you look at Win&Win's Carbon risers they have very few reported problems I've only seen 1 inno riser with a cracked limb pocket and heard or read nothing since and there are a lot of them out being used. The Fiberbow is not as widely used but has a greater number of reported issues. Hoyt has had metal risers that have cracked in the past needless to say they do not have a problem with that today because they have taken steps to resolve the issue. It looks like FiberBow has failed to identify and fix the cause of their issues.

FiberBows are high cost risers they should not be having issues in this price bracket.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

hooktonboy said:


> LOL! Great answer...
> 
> Ryan.B has read the same stuff as me then. I read it that they fixed one - although I also recall it wasn't for damage that looked anything like that - it was more about an alignment issue. And the modification did look a very high-quality job.
> 
> ...


8 of them.

from slots at 11.46mm for a 11mm dovetail to limb bolts at funny angles.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

Vittorio said:


> As clearly visible by pictures, the breaking is inside the pocket area so is not effecting at all the structure or the safety of the riser. It could happen because of bolt too much unloaded, very low/wrong brace height on very recurve limbs, string break, improper pulling out or forcing in of the limbs, or by manufacturing defect because of bad glueing of the fiber layers in those areas. The fact that it happened on BOTH pockets at the same time let me think to improper use rather than defect, as it should be quite strange to have same defect on same areas on both pockets of same riser. Anyhow, everything can happen, so better buyer to return it asking for replacement and manufacturer making an analysis on it. Curious to know what limbs have been used on this riser, what string lenght and what brace height.


Revisiting this thread as I was wondering what the outcome had been. Was the riser replaced under warranty as defective, or was a different reason identified?

Looking back at the pictures, and knowing the FB well, I think it more and more likely that the limbs were incorrectly mounted, with the spring-loaded dovetail above the slot rather than in it. This is easier to do than perhaps it should be on the FB -I always check by looking down the "ends" rather than trusting to feel, as the limbs will wedge between the bolt and the pocket face, and feel quite secure. Once strung, the bow would shoot, but this would put a very large amount of pressure on the edges of the inner pocket. I think I can see crush damage level with the detent hole on the top of the pocket face, about the same size and shape as a dovetail. Could have been the problem, and to be fair a metal riser would probably have survived it....

Anyway, interested to know what the outcome was. Still shooting mine without any problems, several years on


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Send it back to Lancasters immediately and let them replace or exchange it. Its because of issues just like this that I only deal with them these days.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Send it back to Lancasters immediately and let them replace or exchange it. Its because of issues just like this that I only deal with them these days.


What? You don't receive a daily UPS shipment gratis, direct from Easton? :mg:


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

In Las Vegas this year I asked to Lancaster people if they ever got back this riser, as no official warranty claim has reached manufacturer in Italy about it, but they said they have had no returns on the Fiberbow 6.3 risers sold up to now. I have to suppose that owner has fixed it by himself, as damage was clearly coming from improper use (this comment is form the manufacturer, that has seen the pictures)


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## CapnKilo (Oct 13, 2012)

Hi all -

Just for the curious, I think the rep Vittorio spoke to was misinformed. I did return the FB to Lancaster (I'm certainly not qualified to fix it myself!) and they gave me a refund. I disagree with the "clearly improper use" comment, as I did have the local shop inspect everything on the bow before it was shot. If was put together wrong, then the pros missed it as well. I find it highly unlikely, though. 

Regardless, I used the refund plus a bit more to get a new W&W Inno CXT, which has metal in the slots, so I'm much happier!


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

Excellent, glad you got a good outcome. It's expensive gear....

Incidentally, was yours a 5.99 or a 6.3 version? I think Vittorio's comment was specifically about 6.3 versions (no returns?)

and thanks for updating us.


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## CapnKilo (Oct 13, 2012)

It was a 6.3, but I don't doubt Vittorio's report -- it's likely that not every Lancaster employee is aware of every return. Kudos to Lancaster's customer service, though. They were clear that they would have to inspect the bow first, but the return process was extremely smooth and quick.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

CapnKilo said:


> Hi all -
> 
> Just for the curious, I think the rep Vittorio spoke to was misinformed. I did return the FB to Lancaster (I'm certainly not qualified to fix it myself!) and they gave me a refund. I disagree with the "clearly improper use" comment, as I did have the local shop inspect everything on the bow before it was shot. If was put together wrong, then the pros missed it as well. I find it highly unlikely, though.


I'd add that any bow that is so delicate that the bow manufacture has to characterize normal assembly as "improper use" is a bow that sounds to have design issues. Reminds me of all the warranty repairs refused on the basis of "water damage". The "water" sensors in Apple devices can be triggered by humidity. That's not to say that some products aren't water damaged for real, but "water damage" has become generic excuse not to make fixes under warranty. Likewise, claiming your bow was "clearly" used improperly sounds rather presumptuous.


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