# Different End loop method



## jaredc (Mar 23, 2008)

Are you referring to the tag end method? If so, this link should get you on the right track.
http://www.archerylive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1921&hl=Search...string+making


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## tinnocker (Jun 19, 2008)

You can build it with one color. Just set up 2 bundles as if you were doing a 2 color string. Put the tag ends for one bundle on 1 side of the jig, & tag ends for the other on the opposite side. Benifits for me are, I can do lay-up, stretch, twist, serve all on my 2 post jig, and never have to remove it. Plus it's a very effective way to terminate the tag ends.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*And it is more stabe of a string than serving the end loops*



tinnocker said:


> You can build it with one color. Just set up 2 bundles as if you were doing a 2 color string. Put the tag ends for one bundle on 1 side of the jig, & tag ends for the other on the opposite side. Benifits for me are, I can do lay-up, stretch, twist, serve all on my 2 post jig, and never have to remove it. Plus it's a very effective way to terminate the tag ends.


Tom


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

tinnocker said:


> You can build it with one color. Just set up 2 bundles as if you were doing a 2 color string. Put the tag ends for one bundle on 1 side of the jig, & tag ends for the other on the opposite side. Benifits for me are, I can do lay-up, stretch, twist, serve all on my 2 post jig, and never have to remove it. Plus it's a very effective way to terminate the tag ends.


I agree too. Since I have been using the two post tag end method my strings come out a lot more stable. Very seldom have peep rotation issues.


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## x-it (Apr 28, 2008)

TN ARCHER said:


> I agree too. Since I have been using the two post tag end method my strings come out a lot more stable. Very seldom have peep rotation issues.


Can you elaborate more on this and how you do it. Thanks


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

well dang wish I just would have rigged up my own two post system then.... I gotta make a new string again anyways so I am going to try and do the tag end method... I like the idea of not having to move the string and jig at all


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Why and how is it more stable? Just curious.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

The ends cannot pull thorugh under the serving, since _they are _the serving.

I understand why it's "better" but it still _looks_ "lazy" to me though.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*Looks can be decieving*



SandSquid said:


> I understand why it's "better" but it still _looks_ "lazy" to me though.


:wink:


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

I like the way tag ends look. Plus I think if you do them right like Ex-Wolverine does it actually takes a little longer! It does for me anyway:wink:


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

i am going to try this tonight... it will be my first time and I will let you know how it goes.... I am sure I will run into a question or two


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

x-it said:


> Can you elaborate more on this and how you do it. Thanks


As posted above, follow this link.

http://www.archerylive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1921&hl=Search...string+making


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## 1Hole Wunder (Feb 26, 2008)

I thought you were to twist and stretch before serving the ends closed? Is this the way to do it when using tag ends, Use the tag ends to serve and then serve the end closed with end loop serving, before twisting, then twist and burnish and stretch, and finish your remaining servings. any clarification would help.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

1Hole Wunder said:


> I thought you were to twist and stretch before serving the ends closed? Is this the way to do it when using tag ends, Use the tag ends to serve and then serve the end closed with end loop serving, before twisting, then twist and burnish and stretch, and finish your remaining servings. any clarification would help.


If you follow the link,
GRIV clarifies on Post #6.

The photo series skipped a step, cuz he forgot.

So,
use the tag ends to "self serve" the end loop.

Backwrap with the tag ends to close the end loop.

Now,
the next step (missing in the photos)
is to tension to 300 lbs.

Next,
twist to finished length.

Now,
serve your end serving with your favorite serving tool.


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## 1Hole Wunder (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks nutsnbolts, i will give this method a try, using the tag ends, and closing the end loop before stretching, I have been serving the end loops and then stretching and burnishing, then twisting, and burnish again and then serve the end loops closed, Biggest problem is getting the string length correct.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

1Hole Wunder said:


> Thanks nutsnbolts, i will give this method a try, using the tag ends, and closing the end loop before stretching, I have been serving the end loops and then stretching and burnishing, then twisting, and burnish again and then serve the end loops closed, Biggest problem is getting the string length correct.


If you are using 452X,
which essentially has zero creep...

try the 1% rule.


If the finished length is 100 inches,
then the posts should be set for 101 inches.

If the finished length is 75-inches,
then the posts should be set for 75.75-inches.

If the finished length is 50-inches,
then the posts should be set for 50.5-inches.


Part of the rule of thumb,
also depends on your end loop size.


1% extra length should get you into the ballpark,
for a reasonable number of twists,
to get to your finished bowstring length.

You can also try 0.75% extra length,
so you end up with less twists.


100 inches finished length would be 100.75 inches for the posts.

75-inches finished length would be 75-9/16ths for the posts.

50-inches finished length would be 50-3/8ths for the posts.


Having less twists in the bowstring,
to get to finished length,
means when you ADD or REMOVE a twist,
to adjust peep rotation,
you get a finer adjustment.


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## mr.string (Jul 15, 2006)

*stable*



ex-wolverine said:


> Tom


Maybe you should explain why because I don't see how.


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## special (Apr 6, 2009)

I only use the tag end method..And 2 post jigs.


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## 1Hole Wunder (Feb 26, 2008)

I am using 452X, but was only using 20 strands , not 24, so this may have a factor, But i will try the 75%. Just tried the tag end method on a small practice string, That works great, i can see how the end serving will have a much better transition. Thanks for the INFO. will let you know how it works out.


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

x-it said:


> Can you elaborate more on this and how you do it. Thanks


By making the string on a two post jig you don't have to move the string from a four post jig over to a two post jig and risk having the tension in the strands change. If you use a three post jig you don't have to move the string from one end to the other and risk the tension on the strands changing.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*I have done load testing both served and with tag ends*



mr.string said:


> Maybe you should explain why because I don't see how.


There is an excellent string builder on here his name is John09040 follow the link below and you will see his set up and where he has done his testing...

What I have found is that the string material slips under the serving which allows the string and or cables to stretch...

The other thing that tag ends allow is a cleaner transition from the loop onto the string, no lumps or humps...less chance for serving separation at the transition area...

If you put string on a load cell or just watch them on your stretcher, you will see that tag end method is a more stable string...I never lose poudage on TAG ends, but you will see a drop using served ends...Check out post #7 in this link..John has tested both methods extensively http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...ight=load+cell

This link shows his set up post #9 ..Its pretty cool..http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1002176

*Read what he has found on post 11 and 12*

I tested it just on my stretcher and have watched served end loops drop as mush as 50# on my scale...So I truley believe that tags are more stable

Not slamming served end loops because they do look nice if done properly, just stating my findings

Tom


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## special (Apr 6, 2009)

I sometimes put a digital scale inline on my jig...It really gives you a great idea of how they stabilise and the poundage drop when burnishing etc..
I was using GRIV's tag end method and finishing with a 4 wrap overtie..Now Im doing it the way Tom showed me,And finishing the tags thru the bundles...This really gives a fantastic transition:thumbs_up


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## RHINO (Jul 15, 2002)

ex-wolverine said:


> What I have found is that the string material slips under the serving which allows the string and or cables to stretch...


I understand what you are saying here, but a single color string is essentially one strand (two color would be two strands). For the tag end to slip under the serving causing the string to stretch, that would require all of the strands to move under the serving. If that were the case I would say the serving wasn't near tight enough.

Not saying it couldn't happen, it just seems unlikely if the string is build properly.

For my strings, I start by tying the end to the far left post, then lay out however many strands I want. The last strand gets tied to the opposite post on the same end. I spin the posts 90 degrees and serve over the overlapped tag ends for 1.5" (for a 3/4" loop). Then I spin the posts back (with the serving jig still attached) and close the loop with 5 serving wraps and 10 back wraps to finish. Same thing on the other end except I'm not serving over any loose tag ends. Next I move the string from the posts to the stretcher and twist (with string separators in each end), remove the separators, stretch and burnish. With the string under stretched tension, I start the end servings by going through the end loop and serve over the 15 wraps that closed the loop to the desired length. Then the center serving is put on. All the servings are applied while the string is under the same tension as it is never removed from the stretcher until it is finished.

I started building strings this way after I disassembled a WC string and modeled my technique to my findings along with a few other things I've picked up along the way. Never had an issue with stretching or peep rotation.


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

yeah john's setup is pretty sweet.... maybe someday


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## special (Apr 6, 2009)

RHINO said:


> I started building strings this way after I disassembled a WC string and modeled my technique to my findings along with a few other things I've picked up along the way.


Ive got 19 sets of WC strings hanging on the end of my bench that ive removed from bows...Every one of them has the end loops served with the tag ends:wink:


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## RHINO (Jul 15, 2002)

special said:


> Ive got 19 sets of WC strings hanging on the end of my bench that ive removed from bows...Every one of them has the end loops served with the tag ends:wink:


If you look closer, those aren't the tag ends. They use their X-Coat material for the loop servings. Tear one apart and you will see. :wink:


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## special (Apr 6, 2009)

Hmmmm...Id better have a look..thanks:thumbs_up


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## tinnocker (Jun 19, 2008)

X-2 on the X-Coat. They use it like the tag end method, once they close the loop they make 3 or 4 wraps, then back-tie. If you look closely at both end loops, one will be bulkier than the other, may even have a blow-out. Now if you can get the X-Coat off you'll find that they tie the tag ends together with a series of half-hitches, alternating from the top of the bundle to the bottom so that it loks like a braid. Neet stuff.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*interesting*



tinnocker said:


> X-2 on the X-Coat. They use it like the tag end method, once they close the loop they make 3 or 4 wraps, then back-tie. If you look closely at both end loops, one will be bulkier than the other, may even have a blow-out. Now if you can get the X-Coat off you'll find that they tie the tag ends together with a series of half-hitches, alternating from the top of the bundle to the bottom so that it loks like a braid. Neet stuff.


Goes to show you even one of the top string makers uses the tag end method


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

I would like to have one of the Winner Choice string sets so I could tear it apart. Curious how they do there sets.


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## tinnocker (Jun 19, 2008)

ex-wolverine said:


> Goes to show you even one of the top string makers uses the tag end method


I hope my post didn't cause any confussion, but they DON'T use the tag ends to serve the end loops, they use the X-Coast in a similar manner. They actually tie the tag ends together.


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## x-it (Apr 28, 2008)

tinnocker said:


> I hope my post didn't cause any confussion, but they DON'T use the tag ends to serve the end loops, they use the X-Coast in a similar manner. They actually tie the tag ends together.[ /That they do. Bow Tech uses they same method of tieing the ends together. Does anyone know how they do this. I have a old BT cable I have been looking at and cant figure it out.


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## mr.string (Jul 15, 2006)

*loop serving*



ex-wolverine said:


> Tom


I read your theory and stil don't think your string is any more stable than the stirngs I build using actual serving for loops. You claim it is more stable because the tags are under the serving, well I use mini serving for my loops and the tag ends of my knots are actually under 2 layers of end serving. If yours won't slip under your serving then mine will not slip under 2 layers of serving. I do agree that strands can slip if the knots are not tied correctly and serving is not put on tight enough and the knots are not placed correctly before serving.


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

ok ran into a problem while doing this last night...How much tension are you using when you wrapping the loop with the string material? Also how much string material are you leaving to do this method? How tight are you trying to wrap/serve?

Thanks


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

petrey10 said:


> ok ran into a problem while doing this last night...How much tension are you using when you wrapping the loop with the string material? Also how much string material are you leaving to do this method? How tight are you trying to wrap/serve?
> 
> Thanks


What was the problem?


Pull on the tag ends enough to flatten the strands.

Depends on the diameter of your posts on top,
but you want enough length so you can grab with your hands...
2 ft should work. 

4 wraps to close your end loop...4 back wraps and pull through.


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

petrey10 said:


> ok ran into a problem while doing this last night...How much tension are you using when you wrapping the loop with the string material? Also how much string material are you leaving to do this method? How tight are you trying to wrap/serve?
> 
> Thanks


I leave about 15-18 inches of string material for my tag ends I don't measure tension I build all my strings by feel. My strings are hand made not machine made. 

Even when stretching I don't measure tension, I use a build up method and ease the string in, by increasing tension in stages. This way I can monitor how well the end loops and strands are holding up and settling in. One day I will put a spring scale one to see how much tension I add over the stretching phases.

To close the loop I apply enough tension to close the loop and keep it closed and this is often 8 wraps with a minimum of 6 back tied wraps. This means my over wrapped part of the string may be longer than some but they stay together. I also try to keep the tag end threads flat as I wrap them as it makes a nicer finish and easier to serve over.

I like the 2 colour loops I get as it make it easy to remember which end is top and which is bottom.


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

ok well my next but probably obvious question is where do you tie off to? I have a basic 4 post jig and last time I just tied off to the other post but obviously didn't work the greatest cause it was not long enough. so what have you fabbed up to get it to work?


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

I have a BCY jig and unless I am making split yoke cables only use 2 pegs (I use 3 pegs for Y cables). I tie off around the fastening knob on the brackets that hold the pegs in. This only uses about 6 inches of the 18 allow, so the rest just lays over the base of the jig.

Then when the string is layed out I untie the tag ends from the bracket knobs and start wrapping them around the loop ends.


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

special said:


> I sometimes put a digital scale inline on my jig...It really gives you a great idea of how they stabilise and the poundage drop when burnishing etc..
> I was using GRIV's tag end method and finishing with a 4 wrap overtie..Now Im doing it the way Tom showed me,And finishing the tags thru the bundles...This really gives a fantastic transition:thumbs_up


I was wondering if there is a post or pics on how to do this?? thanks


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

petrey10 said:


> I was wondering if there is a post or pics on how to do this?? thanks



go here for a complete step-by-step pictorial:
http://www.archerylive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1921


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

im sorry I thought that someone else had made a different way to do the tag end method.... sorry dumb question


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

petrey10 said:


> im sorry I thought that someone else had made a different way to do the tag end method.... sorry dumb question


Not a dumb question.

Some folks are "braiding" the tag ends
through the string bundle.

Follow the steps in the video clip,
and then braid the ends of the string material...

split the string bundle into two parts
and braid the first color material in and out and around...

then, braid the second color material in and out and around.

Pull tight on the two tag ends,
and snip off the excess.

The tension on the entire string bundle will hang
onto the braided ends.

The braided section (say 4 or 5 braids) provides
a smooth increase in outside diameter 
(smooth transition from bundle to braided section to over wrapped section).


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