# Unacceptable Behaviour



## ASG

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

Once again bowhunting is in the spotlight!

I just received my newsletter from Outdoor Pages and there's an article saying that bowfishing should be banned. After reading this article and seeing the photos, I agree.

The article has photos of a croc that was shot twice with archery gear and just left to die. There is NO excuse for this kind of behaviour at all.
Once again, we are at the point where S.A hunters are going to be the reason for a total ban on bowhunting if not hunting in this country.

Gentlemen, we need a working system and we need it fast.
We somehow have to come up with a set of RULES not guidelines that no person may break. No exeptions.
We need a set of rules that govern everything in bowhunting. From buying archery equipment, right through to training, compulsory club membership, bowhunting ethics, bowhunting ranches the works & may God help the person that breaks these rules.

This may sound extreme, but it's the only way. Bowhunting has grown so fast in the last 5 years that it's spun out of control. Any poepol can buy a bow in the morning and be hunting in the afternoon. There is a very serious lack of bowhunter education and ethics in S.A and I'm afraid that this sport is doomed if we carry on like this. It took some of us years to convince Nature Con. to legalise bowhunting and it's going to take some unethical newbies only a very short time to get it banned outright!


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## Matatazela

No - the system in place says that what the idiot did is illegal. He sould be arrested and charged, and tried in a court of law. You are not allowed to bowhunt crocodiles, and it is as simple as that. 

People like this should be rooted out by the rest of us - if you know of someone that does this, talk to them and direct them to the right path. If they don't want to repent and start walking the straight and narrow, then there are people whose job it is to be very interested in their illegal activities. :wink:


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## zztop1026

*?*

Whats S.a.?


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## INGOZI

I agree with you Craig, kak like this puts us all in a bad light! There should be MUCH stricter measures put in place to protect the rest of us who hunt legally from the new guy that is out there "try bowhunting because it looks like fun".


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## splayed

*Possibilities*

I know I am new to bowhunting, but perhaps the bowhunting community could approach nature conservation to set up some kind of joint venture that would help to set out the rules that ASG is proposing. 

Nature conservation can at least then take these rules to the DAEA or the appropriate organisation for ratification and perhaps have some guidelines set out to punish those that contravene these rules. The punishment could be something along the lines of the punishment for illegal driving on the beach, or taking more than the bag limit when fishing, e.g. forfeiture of vehicle, equipment and a large fine.

Does SABA have communication channels with Nature Conservation that could perhaps be used to initiate this? And doesn't SABAs' constitution offer a good base for the rules themselves?

Sorry if this post is in any way inappropriate, just my inexperienced thoughts on the subject.


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## Y-POPEYE-Y

ASG said:


> AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!
> 
> Once again bowhunting is in the spotlight!
> 
> I just received my newsletter from Outdoor Pages and there's an article saying that bowfishing should be banned. After reading this article and seeing the photos, I agree.
> 
> The article has photos of a croc that was shot twice with archery gear and just left to die. There is NO excuse for this kind of behaviour at all.
> Once again, we are at the point where S.A hunters are going to be the reason for a total ban on bowhunting if not hunting in this country.
> 
> Gentlemen, we need a working system and we need it fast.
> We somehow have to come up with a set of RULES not guidelines that no person may break. No exeptions.
> We need a set of rules that govern everything in bowhunting. From buying archery equipment, right through to training, compulsory club membership, bowhunting ethics, bowhunting ranches the works & may God help the person that breaks these rules.
> 
> This may sound extreme, but it's the only way. Bowhunting has grown so fast in the last 5 years that it's spun out of control. Any poepol can buy a bow in the morning and be hunting in the afternoon. There is a very serious lack of bowhunter education and ethics in S.A and I'm afraid that this sport is doomed if we carry on like this. It took some of us years to convince Nature Con. to legalise bowhunting and it's going to take some unethical newbies only a very short time to get it banned outright!


can you upload those pics for us i would like to see


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## Philip Moolman

*Rottweiler*

Weet julle van die donner wat die hond in Lydenburg met n fieldpoint geskiet het.Die hond het blykbaar in sy eie erf met die pyl in hom aangekom.Sulke moere se name moet ons kry


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## Y-POPEYE-Y

Philip Moolman said:


> Weet julle van die donner wat die hond in Lydenburg met n fieldpoint geskiet het.Die hond het blykbaar in sy eie erf met die pyl in hom aangekom.Sulke moere se name moet ons kry


what????????????? lmao sorry there is a big language barrier here


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## Gerhard

Philip Moolman said:


> Weet julle van die donner wat die hond in Lydenburg met n fieldpoint geskiet het.Die hond het blykbaar in sy eie erf met die pyl in hom aangekom.Sulke moere se name moet ons kry


Hulle het hom gekry. Het die pyl na die Nelspruit bow shop toe gevat en hulle kon die fletching en pyl id en so die moer in die hande kry.

Gerhard


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## Y-POPEYE-Y

Gerhard said:


> Hulle het hom gekry. Het die pyl na die Nelspruit bow shop toe gevat en hulle kon die fletching en pyl id en so die moer in die hande kry.
> 
> Gerhard


hou VWO are funky of hou sapoké englis peppel Mighet noot hink iets ruide


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## Y-POPEYE-Y

Philip Moolman said:


> Weet julle van die donner wat die hond in Lydenburg met n fieldpoint geskiet het.Die hond het blykbaar in sy eie erf met die pyl in hom aangekom.Sulke moere se name moet ons kry


speaak englis


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## Karoojager

Y-POPEYE-Y said:


> hou VWO are funky of hou sapoké englis peppel Mighet noot hink iets ruide


Every now and then they write in Africaans, you can learn this or you can leave, it is only a mouse click:wink:


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## Y-POPEYE-Y

caracal said:


> Every now and then they write in Africaans, you can learn this or you can leave, it is only a mouse click:wink:


WELL WHERE DO I CLICK MY LITTLE MOUSE


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## Gerhard

*Die engelse kak praat moet stop!!!!*

Boys,

As daar iets is waar oor ons wil teem doen dit in Afrikaans. Ons op wir dit van toepassing is kan dit dan lees en verstaan.

Ons bliksem ons name as jag destinasie met planke as ons die tipe van goed in engels bespreek. 

Dis ons reg en ook voor reg om hier op AT ons eie plek te kan he. 

Ek stem saam dat ons die donners wat aan jaag met die boe moet probeer stop maar dit het niks met die res vd wereld uit te waai wat in ons eie "kamer" aan gaan nie.

As julle nie saam stem nie se so maar dis my voorstel...


Gerhard


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## wildeboer

*engels*

Ek stem 100% saam dat ons afrikaans hou om probleme te bespreek, n mens was nie vuil wasgoed in die openbaar nie

Y-POPEYE-Y
If you are interested in South African Forums, try to keep emotions in line. It was after all created for South African Afrikaans speaking archers.
A quick question though, have you tried your comments on the German site?


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## INGOZI

Gerhard said:


> Boys,
> 
> As daar iets is waar oor ons wil teem doen dit in Afrikaans. Ons op wir dit van toepassing is kan dit dan lees en verstaan.
> 
> Ons bliksem ons name as jag destinasie met planke as ons die tipe van goed in engels bespreek.
> 
> Dis ons reg en ook voor reg om hier op AT ons eie plek te kan he.
> 
> Ek stem saam dat ons die donners wat aan jaag met die boe moet probeer stop maar dit het niks met die res vd wereld uit te waai wat in ons eie "kamer" aan gaan nie.
> 
> As julle nie saam stem nie se so maar dis my voorstel...
> 
> 
> Gerhard


Tien uit tien my maat! Of moet ek rather are be saying you speak da good engalish?:wink:

Op 'n ernstige noot, ek stem saam dat ons die probleme met ons regering/wetgewing eerder maar in Afrikaans moet uitpraat dan kan ons 'n "polities korrekte" antwoord post in Engels.

Alles van die beste

Engee


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## russ

Hey did you know there isn't a translator to go from Afrikaans to English  

All I can clean out of this conversation, is "dead croc" "field point"


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## doegirl

russ said:


> Hey did you know there isn't a translator to go from Afrikaans to English
> 
> All I can clean out of this conversation, is "dead croc" "field point"


When in Rome....You best speak Latin. Here's a site that is a decent introduction to Afrikaans:
http://web.sois.uwm.edu/AFR101/
:wink:


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## Karoojager

INGOZI said:


> Tien uit tien my maat! Of moet ek rather are be saying you speak da good engalish?:wink:
> 
> Op 'n ernstige noot, ek stem saam dat ons die probleme met ons regering/wetgewing eerder maar in Afrikaans moet uitpraat dan kan ons 'n "polities korrekte" antwoord post in Engels.
> 
> Alles van die beste
> 
> Engee


Engee,

Seems you are a good diplomat:wink:
Ek stem saam met Doegirl....if you stay in a forum of Africans, you must not be angry if they speak africaans. Learning other languages increased the own horizon.
But back now to topic !!

@ ASG :
How will you control the ethic of a bow hunter ?
Thousand and thousand bow hunter visit every year S.A. for hunting, but only a small percentage of this make bad thinks.
For example:
We here in Germany have really strong weapon laws. It is not allowed for everyone to buy a rifle or gun. Nevertheless some people have illegal wapons and every day any person is killing by wapon.
IMO stronger laws and adjust are not a effectively way. Mostly this narrow the normally people and the black sheep find another way to make kak.

I agree that stronger fine in money or prison is the right way for determent, but the black sheep will never die.


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## Matatazela

Hiedie gedrag is al klaar onwetig! Ons het nie meer reels en regulasies nodig nie - maar beter wetstoepassing! Waar is die distriksbeampenaar? Waar is die polisie? Wat van die eienaar van die plaas? Ek dink nogsteeds die skuldige aangekla moet word!


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## ASG

Hiedie gedrag is al klaar onwetig! Ons het nie meer reels en regulasies nodig nie - maar beter wetstoepassing! Waar is die distriksbeampenaar? Waar is die polisie? Wat van die eienaar van die plaas? Ek dink nogsteeds die skuldige aangekla moet word!

Ons jag wette moet nog baie strenger word. Veral op die biltong jagter en die plaas boere.
Ek sien elke dag hoe biltong jagters kak aanjaag en die boere dit toelaat want hy kry mos geld.
Dit is hoekom ek se dat ons n vasgestelde stel reels moet he vir jag in S.A waar almal moet inpas of afkak. Van die jagter tot die boer. Daar moet ook moerse boetes of strafte toegepas word. 
Soos n boete van R10 000.00 per pyl vir n boogjagter wat nie sy bevoegtyds sertifikaat het nie. Of die konverskeering van die boer se bakkie en die jagter se gewere as hulle in die nag skiet + R 10 000.00 per koel of 10 jaar tronkstraf.
Ons se almal dat die doodstraf terug gebring moet word om skelms twee keer te laat dink.
Die selfde vir geld vir die jag bedryf. Die ouens moet so kak bang wees om aan te jaag dat hulle 100 keer dink voordat hulle dit doen.
Daai krok is by Arabie dam in Mpumalanga geskiet. Dis n publike dam.
Die selfde ding het ook by Roodekoppies gebeur.
Ek het ook al gehoor van n ou wat sy tuinboy after teen die kop geskiet het met n blunt. Dit uit n 90# Samson ook.
SABA, ABO en S.A Jagters beteken niks. Die probleem in S.A is dat almal op sy eie ashoop wil sit en kraai en niemand werk saam aan die grooter prentjie nie.
Bel n bietjie vir SABA en vind uit wat hulle lidmaatskap is. Daar is nou al omtrent 30 000 boogjagters in S.A. 5 jaar terug was daar maar iets soos 4500
Hulle lidmaatskap is nie eers 30% van die boogjagters nie.
Ek het nog net op twee plase aangekom waar die boer eintlik toets om te sien hoe goed jy kan skiet.
Ons local tydskrif help ook nie. Laas jaar toe ons al die kak met jag en veral boogjag gehad het, het die "Panel of Experts" nie die resultate van n studie oor boogjag gebruik om teen die sport te veg nie. Hulle het daar gesit met n hoop ABH&A tydskrifte en die informasie daaruit gebruik.
Bowhunting beyond 100 yards. Die kameelperd wat gekwes was en gelos was vir n week, die swak gehalte van die fotos ens. Die lys was oneindig.

Begin n bietjie dink oor n lekker streng stel reels en dan vat ons hulle na natuur bewaaring toe vir "consideration". Dit sal baie beter wees as ons as boogjagters met die STRENG reels voordkom.

Ekskus vir die spel voute. Ek kan die taal vlod praat maar nie skryf nie.


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## Nyala

Over regulating the law abiding because of a few criminals is the South African way. There are already enough restrictions on our freedom. Having to licence bows is going to be a huge nightmare. If the police cannot process firearms applications correctly and efficiently how the **** are they going to police archery equipment? 

There is a huge outcry over ethical bowhunting, but any poepol can buy a firearms hunting licence without having to undergo any proficieny test or even own his own rifle. I know that a group of say six guys can go rifle hunting with two rifles and often the only test done is at the range at the game ranch when sighting in & using a dead rest. Why are bowhunters singled out for special attention? Give us a break and don't even suggest that more restrictions are placed on us. As has already been said, let the appropriate authorities deal with these people.


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## Matatazela

ASG - I am replying in Engels because I have run out of Afrikaans words for today...

First: The competency certificate means absolutely nothing. The guy in question is competent enough to hit the target - twice in fact. 

Second: Why the need for more rules, when there are LAWS that control us? As hunters, and specifically bowhunters, it is our responsbility to ensure that we understand and abide by the law. 

Third: Did you correct or report the "kakaanjagende" biltong hunters? Because if not, YOU are part of the problem!

Fourth: Die ou met Samson en tuinboy - dis aanranding met opset, en strafbaar met tronkstraf. Ek is verbaas en embarrased oor hierdie voorval.


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## lenn

ASG - 90# blunt teen die kop ? 

Ek is jammer ek kan nie glo dat die persoon opgestaan het nie.


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## ASG

Matatazela said:


> ASG - I am replying in Engels because I have run out of Afrikaans words for today...
> 
> First: The competency certificate means absolutely nothing. The guy in question is competent enough to hit the target - twice in fact.
> 
> Second: Why the need for more rules, when there are LAWS that control us? As hunters, and specifically bowhunters, it is our responsbility to ensure that we understand and abide by the law.
> 
> Third: Did you correct or report the "kakaanjagende" biltong hunters? Because if not, YOU are part of the problem!
> 
> Fourth: Die ou met Samson en tuinboy - dis aanranding met opset, en strafbaar met tronkstraf. Ek is verbaas en embarrased oor hierdie voorval.


Matatazela

On your third point. I'm no longer welcome on this ranch due to me telling them exactly how kak they are. Ek het nog nooit op my bek geval nie.:wink:

True, the guy was competent enough to hit the croc twice. Yet, it's obvious that there was insufficient penetration and knowing your equipment's limitations also fall under competency.
There are laws in place with regard to hunting. The biggest problem is that very few people give a damn about them and there is nobody to police them.
Especially because almost all hunting here is done on private game ranches.
That's why I'm saying that the ranchers also need to catch a game. They are in the best position to police the system and without their help we have a very bleek future ahead of us in the hunting business.

I've sent many people packing from the ranch and I'll never apologise for it.
If it was compulsory for every single hunter in S.A to belong to one single association, it would be a lot easier to report bad behaviour and unethical practices. You contact the association with the hunters details, they take disciplinary action.
If the complaint is serious enough or it's the 3rd time he's reported, his license gets revoked and he may no longer hunt in S.A's borders.

Lenn

The garden boy was knocked out cold. He eventually got up again but was taken to the Dokotela with serious concussion.


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## Matatazela

ASG - I commend you on your ethics and behaviour in sending people packing for not acting ethically. I am starting to see your point. 

However, instead of making more strict rules, let's try and work on simplifying the process of policing the rules already in place. 

If all bowhunters have to belong to ABO, and Active Member status depends not only on your annual fee, but participation in a minimum of one shoot per year, then we are starting to cook with gas. The benefit is that almost every member can be educated by simply emailing the person a copy of any changes in legislation, rules and regulations, as well as getting each member to sign that they will comply with all laws when they renew their membership every year. 

If the authorities then accept that card-carrying members are able to forego any other tests, and proceed straight to the hunting grounds, we are in business. 

The trick is to then get the organisations members to do the policing. Report errant members to the committee, who then decide whether it requires prosecution or not... Could work, but it depends on us as ethical sportsmen and not on the authorities, as you say.


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## Philip Moolman

*Bow competency evaluation*

Ek stem saam dat dit F*&&kol beteken,maar ek en Belinda het nie n probleem om dit te doen nie(ek weet nie eers presies wat dit alles behels nie,kan iemand my meer inlig omtrent dit asb).Ek mag verkeerd wees ,maar dit gaan my nie n beter jagter maak nie.Jy kan nie ervaring binne n dag leer nie,ek leer elke keer iets nuuts.Gaan dit nie net oor geldmaak nie?As jy nie integriteit het nie sal jy nog steeds kak aanjaag.MAAR DIE MOERE WAT AANJAAG MOET ONS IDENTIFISEER EN OPF**OK.
Aan die einde van die dag is dit ons wat gaan lei weens ander se stront.ONS MOET SAAMSTAAN!
Wie bied dit aan in Hoedspruit omgewing,wanneer en kostes verbonde?


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## Bushkey

Waarvoor ek die bangste is, is die totale verbod op boogjag. Soos baie ander reeds hier gese het. Jy kan al die toetse slaag maar steeds kak aanjaag. Daar is nie genoeg mense of geld by Natuurbewaring om die goed behoorlik te poliseer nie.

Ek wonder of 'n mens 'n tipe van 'n Natuurbewarings Reservis kan word. Dan kan 'n mens begin werk maak van die tipe ouens.


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## ASG

Matatazela,

I couldn't agree with you more about the ABO membership.
It would be fantastic if we could get every single archer in S.A to fall under this organisation. I also agree with your point about taking part in at least one shoot per year.

My question is this... How do we get all bowhunters to join?
This takes me back to the game rancher and archery shops.

If we can get the game rancher to ask every bowhunter for his/her ABO card before they are allowed to hunt we would be making serious headway.
The archery shops should also come to the party. Make every prospective bowhunter aware that they need an ABO card before they can enter the field.
If this is too much of a mission for the "new" bowhunter, then he shouldn't be bowhunting in the first place.

I for one would like to see a grading system for bowhunting in S.A.

Let's say that you get 3 different grades...

Grade 1 allows a new bowhunter to hunt animals from let's say a duiker to a blesbuck.

Grade 2 allows a bowhunter to hunt animals from blesbuck to kudu.

Grade 3 allows a bowhunter to hunt animals from kudu to elephant.

Only once you have taken at least 10 animals in grade 1, can you move to grade two. 10 in grade two and you can move to grade 3 etc.
Before moving up a grade, you have to be re-tested and write a written exam on anatomy, ethics, tissue penetration, range estimation and so on.

Philip

You hit the nail on the head. It's all about money. Greed has replaced ethics.
The ranch that I hunt on most often, is one that I will return to year after year. The rancher made it clear that his 1st obligation, is to his game herds.
The man is very strict, but we'll hunt with him till we can't draw a bow anymore. His ethics have ensured that we always get our biltong and that the same groups return every year for the last 11 years.
You can contact Pierre van Wyk from ABO. He will be able to direct you to the person closest to you that is an accredited trainer.

Another alternative is for us as AT forum members to establish our own association with a strict code of conduct and branch out from here.
Perhaps we can get all the forum members to join our association from all over the world. A few thousand voices count. A few hundred don't.


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## Bushkey

ASG said:


> Matatazela,
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more about the ABO membership.
> It would be fantastic if we could get every single archer in S.A to fall under this organisation. I also agree with your point about taking part in at least one shoot per year.
> 
> My question is this... How do we get all bowhunters to join?
> This takes me back to the game rancher and archery shops.


You are right, but this croc wasn't shot on a farm or at a competition.


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## spatan

*spatan*



zztop1026 said:


> Whats S.a.?


whats U.s.a? Just kidding.... S.A is short for South Africa, mate.

Spatan:cocktail:


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## Karoojager

ASG said:


> Matatazela,
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more about the ABO membership.
> It would be fantastic if we could get every single archer in S.A to fall under this organisation. I also agree with your point about taking part in at least one shoot per year.
> 
> My question is this... How do we get all bowhunters to join?
> This takes me back to the game rancher and archery shops.
> 
> If we can get the game rancher to ask every bowhunter for his/her ABO card before they are allowed to hunt we would be making serious headway.
> The archery shops should also come to the party. Make every prospective bowhunter aware that they need an ABO card before they can enter the field.
> If this is too much of a mission for the "new" bowhunter, then he shouldn't be bowhunting in the first place.
> 
> I for one would like to see a grading system for bowhunting in S.A.
> 
> Let's say that you get 3 different grades...
> 
> Grade 1 allows a new bowhunter to hunt animals from let's say a duiker to a blesbuck.
> 
> Grade 2 allows a bowhunter to hunt animals from blesbuck to kudu.
> 
> Grade 3 allows a bowhunter to hunt animals from kudu to elephant.
> 
> Only once you have taken at least 10 animals in grade 1, can you move to grade two. 10 in grade two and you can move to grade 3 etc.
> Before moving up a grade, you have to be re-tested and write a written exam on anatomy, ethics, tissue penetration, range estimation and so on.


As a non resident I have a question please.
In what way the foreigners can reach you grades in you visie. Sorry, now I am a old f§§§§r from 50 years, I hunt since 7 years in S.A. how many years I must become to shoot a eland or a buff ?

I know that I as a foreigner not entitled to speak in this theme, but I am one of the 30000 bow hunter they visit you country every year.


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## INGOZI

In prinsiep is dit 'n goeie idee om 'n tipe van bevoegtheids toets te he wat ouens moet slaag voor dat hulle daaraan kan dink om te jag. Maar, maak dit eerder dat daar verskillende vlakke is, beginner, intermediate en experienced. So weet die plaas boer met wie hy te doen het as die ou boog in die hand op die plaas aankom, die beginner se hand hou jy amper vas, sit hom in 'n blind waar die langste skoot 20yards is, die intermediate ou weet jy sal darem nie die first timers jitters kry nie ens. ens. (Dis idiaal om te dink dat 'n plaasboer 'n man met 'n sak vol geld gaan weg wys omdat hy nie 'n COP kaartjie het nie, maar ongelukkig gaan en sal dit nie gebeur nie). Kom ons wees eerlik met mekaar, die huidige COP is maar 'n pot kak, naas enige ou kan en sal dit slaag. Maak die eksamens eerder moeiliker, die skietbaan uitdagend. As ek dan byvoorbeeld 50% kry vir die toets word ek geklas as 'n beginner, 70% as 'n intermediate en 90% en beter as experienced. Dit gee die beginners en intermediate ouens iets om na te werk.

Die toets of kurses moet amper 'n mini PH kursus wees, mens moet tog alle aspekte van jag ken om suksesvol te wees nie waar nie? Dis nou nie nodig om elke bleddie dier se latynse naam te ken nie, maar 'n man moet darem verskillende spesies kan uitmekaar ken. Ek stem ook 110% saam met Philip en James, fok die ouens op wat aanjaag. Kry die moer voor die hof, vat sy boog en bakkie. Daar is kanse vat (lang skote ens.) en daar is blatant dom-deur-die-kak-commen-danville. Sulke ouens moet nooit weer 'n boog (of ENIGE ander wapen) besit nie.

Hoekom byt jy nie 'n 6voet 4, 120kg ou kak nie? Want hy gaan jou kop afruk en in die see gooi. Hoekom skiet jy nie die krok in die publieke dam nie? Want jy weet jy gaan so ver gebere word dat hulle jou kos met 'n kettie gaan moet inskiet. Tree op teen die ouens, fullstop. Geen uitsonderings nie.

Daar is reels, genoeg ook. Ons die eerbare jagters moet hulle net toepas. Split op de moere, gaan gee hom aan. Ek sweer as ek 'n ou sien iemand se hond met 'n field point skiet bliksem ek hom persoonlik in 'n ander bloedgroep in. Dis siek man.

Anyway, kom ons kyk of ons die ding kan omdraai en boogjag bewaar.:wink:

Alles van die beste

Engee


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## spatan

*spatan*

I agree that bow hunting needs to be kept clean and free of "unacceptable behavior". Its a bit like the realm of religion very difficult to convince people that the way they do things is wrong and another way is right. i.e I might frown apon the use of the crossbow as a legitamate hunting weapon..... but who am I to say. On the other hand if one has permission and the relivant "papers" then one should be able to shot that poticular spp of game no problem.

As for licensing bows good luck...That would mean every "stick and string" out there.

I will draw up a list of recommendations that a potential bow hunter should follow and place this in their bow bag and have it freely available for those who want it.So he/she would be able to follow his/her passion with confidence and pride knowing he/she is enabling this activitiy to be passed down to our children in a very tangable way.

If there are any thoughts on what should be included on this Paper please feel free to contribute your ideas.

I will post the draft before it goes to print.


Spatan:cocktail:


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## miwai

*Welcome?*

I don't speak any of the African language....am I still welcome to visit this forum? Seems like more than half of the posts are in English. 

About the Croc, did they find the culprit? What happened to him/her? Did someone say that the arrows had field tips? So sad if that was the case.

I've bowhunted in SA last summer and I enjoyed it.....I worked very hard to prepare myself for the hunt....but still the hunting was much much harder than I had expected because it was hard to stalk to within 30 yards or less.


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## Matatazela

Aloha miwai - of course you are more than welcome! If there is something specific that you don't understand, then ask! The thread was initially about a croc shot with two arrows, both tipped with fieldpoints. It has now evolved to a thread about how to sort this type of thing out so that it doesn't happen again. 

Foreigners to SA are accompanied by a PH on their hunts and they are not the problem in this scenario.


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## Matatazela

INGOZI said:


> Daar is kanse vat (lang skote ens.) en daar is blatant dom-deur-die-kak-commen-danville.


I submit this as quote of the month! Hahahaha!


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## ASG

Hey Spatan

Can't wait to see your recommendations.
Let us know if you need some help.:wink:


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## ghoster808

Some Americans can be so contradictory. Recently we have had a big public out cry regarding immigrants into our country that have not bothered to learn our language yet want to be naturalized. Yet when visiting an international forum they pretty much want or expect you to bend or cater to them...that is too funny and too rude. I hope you folks don't think all americans are forward and tactless as some. Yes I am a Natural born American but here in Hawaii we do things a lot different, the life style is real layed back with lots of aloha. All in all I like reading your threads, you all seem like a real nice and tight bunch of people, that have a lot of aloha!! Aloha plenty, Mike


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## Matatazela

Mike / Ghoster, you seem to 'get' us! Welcome to our corner of the www and hope you stick around!

Don't worry about the guys who want us to do our business in English only. I know that we don't!:wink:


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## ASG

Aloha Ghoster808!

A friend of mine's mom lives in Maui and it looks very laid back. I'd love to join him next time he goes to Hawaii but a 27 hour flight...
The flight going to SCI is bad enough!

Keep visiting us here on AT.:wink:


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## spatan

*spatan*



ASG said:


> Hey Spatan
> 
> Can't wait to see your recommendations.
> Let us know if you need some help.:wink:


Hi ASG, 

I was speaking to my partner last night and he is right its not the job of the Pro bow shops to police the bow hunting fraternaty.

I am merely wanting to further the idea that "buyiny a bow in the morning and expecting to hunt in the afternoon is an unreasonable expectation"

There is alot at stake if people armed with bow equipment mean to do this. There are laws in place to take care of these "rogue hunting dogs" because I would be personally affended if everyone shooting a bow at a living thing calls themself a bowhunter (or is lumped together with bowhunters).

I have already found your contributions very helpful, having said this it is not my intention to put off new prospective bow hunters by coming across more ownerous than absolutley necessary. 

Keeping things simple and accessable is the key. So as not to alienate new comers by coming across "too Know it all and my kak don't stink" from the self proclaimed "gods of hunting" and they know who they are, guy's that actually confess to "testing" their set ups by purposefully taking horribly dodgy shots that can only prolong an animals death to see if an arrow , broad head or what ever is in my opinion where the problem lies.(this practice is no better than doing nasty experiments on animals in labs). This of thing is all the "bunnie huggers" need to shut bowhunting down in SA for good. I will live on on the competition fields, no problem, but it would be sad - a loss to us all.

IF ONE WANTS TO BOW HUNT learn the laws that you need to know and ABIDE BY THEM.

How simple is that,

If ther are those that need to inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on something than beware "what goes around, comes around" I will pray every day that something bigger and nastier than themselves comes out of the woods to rip somenice big holes in them. 


Stay safe ,

Spatan


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## Nyala

Ja, like the chain saw Husky guy that was killed in a road accident over the wekend.


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## Bushkey

Nyala said:


> Ja, like the chain saw Husky guy that was killed in a road accident over the wekend.


Chain saw Husky guy? 

I hope it is not what I think it is.


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## Nyala

Bushkey, I sent you a PM.


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## Bushkey

Nyala said:


> Bushkey, I sent you a PM.


Thanks. I will let you know.


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## tulikiwi

spatan said:


> I agree that bow hunting needs to be kept clean and free of "unacceptable behavior". Its a bit like the realm of religion very difficult to convince people that the way they do things is wrong and another way is right. i.e I might frown apon the use of the crossbow as a legitamate hunting weapon..... but who am I to say. On the other hand if one has permission and the relivant "papers" then one should be able to shot that poticular spp of game no problem.
> 
> As for licensing bows good luck...That would mean every "stick and string" out there.
> 
> I will draw up a list of recommendations that a potential bow hunter should follow and place this in their bow bag and have it freely available for those who want it.So he/she would be able to follow his/her passion with confidence and pride knowing he/she is enabling this activitiy to be passed down to our children in a very tangable way.
> 
> If there are any thoughts on what should be included on this Paper please feel free to contribute your ideas.
> 
> I will post the draft before it goes to print.
> 
> 
> Spatan:cocktail:


Kia Ora!

i came across this thread and found it quite interesting to read. at the moment i live in germany where bowhunting is illegal eek and i can see every day what it means when there are WAY too many laws around. i hope you guys dont mind if i put in my 2 cents (Euro-cents ;-)) and tell you what i think about laws in general:
if you want to introduce a rule or law, make sure that:
A: those governed by that law accept it as reasonable
and
B: you can enforce that law efficiently

if one or both of the a.m. points cannot generally be guaranteed, rather think of an alternative, because you will fail.

but back to the topic in question, i think a code of behaviour for bowhunters should have the following in it:

_*(bow) hunting begins and ends with respect.*​_this is an adaption of Gichin Funakoshis rules concerning karate, but i find it very appropriate for most situations in life.

anyways; i wish you guys the best for your bowhunting in SA, and i admit that i am envious because here i cant do it :sad:

Nik


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## Philip Moolman

*German bowhunting*



tulikiwi said:


> Kia Ora!
> 
> i came across this thread and found it quite interesting to read. at the moment i live in germany where bowhunting is illegal eek and i can see every day what it means when there are WAY too many laws around. i hope you guys dont mind if i put in my 2 cents (Euro-cents ;-)) and tell you what i think about laws in general:
> if you want to introduce a rule or law, make sure that:
> A: those governed by that law accept it as reasonable
> and
> B: you can enforce that law efficiently
> 
> if one or both of the a.m. points cannot generally be guaranteed, rather think of an alternative, because you will fail.
> 
> but back to the topic in question, i think a code of behaviour for bowhunters should have the following in it:
> 
> _*(bow) hunting begins and ends with respect.*​_this is an adaption of Gichin Funakoshis rules concerning karate, but i find it very appropriate for most situations in life.
> 
> anyways; i wish you guys the best for your bowhunting in SA, and i admit that i am envious because here i cant do it :sad:
> 
> Nik


Nik ,
Nice to hear from you.How many bowhunters are there in Germany and why is bowhunting prohibited.Have you been to South Africa to hunt?I know from experience that you German hunters are very very ethical.Maybe we will meet in the future,I know a lot of excellent bowhunting venues


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## Nyala

You have hit the nai on the head Tulikiwi!

I couldn't agree more.


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## tulikiwi

Hi Phillip,

no idea how many bowhunters are here in germany, could be a few hundred, could be more. i have only just scratched the surface of the local scene here. most german bowhunters i know personally use traditional material and go to hungary to hunt.but in the german AT, most people seem to be compound-shooters. (I use a compound bow mostly and have hunted mainly back in New Zealand) never been to SA, but would love to, some AT memebrs wrote about their trips there...awesome!

why is it illegal? Well, becoz it is da LAW :wink:
actually the law concerning hunting is quite difficult in germany. and being absolutely exact (like a german would be :wink::wink bowhunting is only illegal when hunting hoofed animals or seals.... or, to be even more germanly exact :wink: this is true for the entire republic of germany. HOWEVER, in some of the german states, bowhunting is illegal no matter what you want to hunt. EVEN HOWEVERER:wink:: it could be argued that in those states where it is not explicidly forbidden to bowhunt e.g. hares, foxes, etc, bowhunting is not "weidgerecht", i.e. "ethical" in the widest sense.

you see: its tremendously complicated, just dont go there. :embara:

its a touchy subject, too. many german bowhunters even condone talking about the topic out of fear that the bunny huggers get wind of the topic and ban every last stick-and-string.
anyways: good hunting, or "Waidmannsheil" as they say here.
Nik
PS: as a speaker of afrikaans, would one understand "Waidmannsheil" ?


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## INGOZI

The idea of teaching new archers to be better hunters, be more ethical and more responsable toward our (current & future) hunting laws is an absolutely great and novel idea. But how, or more importantly WHO is going to do it? Who has enough credebility to say what should or should not be done? Definitely not me, yes I like to help new archers by answering the dozens of questions they have, and I hope that the articles that I write at least helps somebody be a more successfull and ethical bowhunter. But there are many who are better suited and in a better possition. Ceirtainly not some over eager guy behind the counter at some small little bowshop. The first question asked by a newcomer reading such ideas/laws will surely be "but what is your experience?" Or more arrogantly, "who are you to say what I should do!?" And who has enough experience? Dave Holt? Dr Adrain de Villiers? As most of you guys will agree, experience is the magic word. Guys are in general very touchy when someone wants to change the way they do (and have done) things. It should be done, absolutely, no doubt about that. Unethical behavior and hunting is going to kill bowhunting in this country for the rest of us if we do not do something about it. It is as simple as that.

The whole bowhunting infrastructure should be changed. Why do newcomers think that they are "hunt ready" after the first couple of hours in the bow shop with their new toy in hand? Can it be that the salesman is so eager for the sale that he will tell the customer just what he wants to hear? Possibly. Can it be that the salesman at the bowshop is so eager to get the guy out the door and the next customer on the range that he does not fully explain what ethical bowhunting constitutes? Possibly.

Pointing fingers at each other is not going to help either, so lets rather try and come up with some "ideas/suggestions" to give to the "guys in charge". Lets report the damn offenders, get them prosecuted. Lets get the same attitude as the KZN traffic cops, "Zero Tolerance".

All the best

Engee


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## ghoster808

Do you guys have a hunter safety/education course? in my state to get a hunting license you must have passed this course and be certified, of course this is no guarentee against slob hunters but it is at the least very educational as it also covers the ethic topic.


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## RayDando

ghoster808 said:


> Do you guys have a hunter safety/education course? in my state to get a hunting license you must have passed this course and be certified, of course this is no guarentee against slob hunters but it is at the least very educational as it also covers the ethic topic.


They are implementing a system whereby all SA bowhunters have to pass a course on ethical bow hunting, I think it's called a Certificate of Proficiency. This is being driven mainly by the bowhunting community itself and I think will become law soon.
Bow hunters here have been pretty proactive, trying to get their house in order before the government does so for us :wink:
That said, there was also an idiot in Tzaneen shooting cats with a bow. The sad part of it all was that the moron failed to even kill the cat and the poor animal ran home with the arrow still in it. Failed to get pass through on a 5 pound animal!


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## Commander

Man, het ek dit nou geniet om hierdie thread te lees.

Wat ek nogal opgemerk het besig is om te gebeur in die laaste tyd, veral met die nuwe streng wapenwette is dat jan-alleman-biltong-jagter-kampioen-bier-drinker nie meer 'n wapenlisensie so maklik kan kry as voorheen, wat hy dan weer as verskoning kan gebruik as 'n naweek saam met die boys waar die skiet van 'n bok of twee nie naastenby so belangrik is soos die "kuier" langs die vuur en die kastele in die koelkas nie. 

Daar was nog altyd baie van hierdie 'jagters' wat net sy roer uit die kluis gehaal het een keer per jaar vir die groot 'jag' saam met die boys. Nou, 'n mens wat al so paar keer vantevore met 'n jag geweer geskiet het, kan hom 1keer per jaar uit die kluis haal en nog redelik oraait skiet. Maar doen dit nou met 'n boog, dan gaan jy nie eers die 'broadside' van die boer se bakkie op 20 tree kan raakskiet nie. 

My punt is daar is baie van hierdie sogenaamde 'jagters' wat nooit oefen om akuraat met 'n boog te kan skiet nie. Hy oefen vandag, en dan 4 maande later sonder oefening dink hy hy kan sy boog vat en 'n bok loop skiet. Dit maak my woedend. Boogjag was nog altyd vir die fanatikus jagter. Dit is 'n kuns wat baie ernstig deur sy kunstenaars opgevat word. Ure word by die 'range' spandeer om elke aspek van sy toerusting perfek te 'fine tune' todat hy seker is dat hy daai skoot op die rooibok met goeie 'confidence' kan neem. Maar eersgenoemde party het nie dieselfde respek vir die sport nie. Vir hom is dit niks meer as 'n 'means to an end' nie. En ek is jammer om te sê, maar 'n bevoegdheid sertifikaat gaan nie hierdie persoon se houding oor jag verander nie. Soos Engee gesê het: "blatant dom-deur-die-kak-commen-danville." En ek stem saam.


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## Bushkey

My two cents.

I saw how Skydiving clubs lost members because of certain similarities. People just stopped coming. It became to mush of a shlep, to conform. Of course there, if some one made kak he/she died, but that is besides the piont.

F.F.A. left it to the Skydivers to form there own association(PASA, Parachute Association of South Africa) and allowed them to govern themselves within rules laid out by F.F.A. Much the same as we are considering doing. 

Now currently the Skydiving scene is so regulated you can't scratch your arse without being briefed on how to do it although you have done it hundreds of times before. Every time there is an incident these guys get together and just ad some more rules and regulations to prevent some one from bouncing again. But no matter how much they write every year someone does. 

The point I am trying to make is. It doesn't matter how many rules and regulations you make, some one is going to make kak, and it is going to reflect badly on bowhunting.

Beware of what you hope for, you might just get it.


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## ghoster808

Bushkey said:


> My two cents.
> 
> I saw how Skydiving clubs lost members because of certain similarities. People just stopped coming. It became to mush of a shlep, to conform. Of course there, if some one made kak he/she died, but that is besides the piont.
> 
> F.F.A. left it to the Skydivers to form there own association(PASA, Parachute Association of South Africa) and allowed them to govern themselves within rules laid out by F.F.A. Much the same as we are considering doing.
> 
> Now currently the Skydiving scene is so regulated you can't scratch your arse without being briefed on how to do it although you have done it hundreds of times before. Every time there is an incident these guys get together and just ad some more rules and regulations to prevent some one from bouncing again. But no matter how much they write every year someone does.
> 
> The point I am trying to make is. It doesn't matter how many rules and regulations you make, some one is going to make kak, and it is going to reflect badly on bowhunting.
> 
> Beware of what you hope for, you might just get it.


 This is the truth, here in the islands they wanted to add more rules and regs regarding fishing, well the problem was the enforcement of the regs that are already on the books! or in this case the un-enforcement. Its better to not have rules than to have rules that aren't or can't be enforced. aloha mk


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