# Blank Bale Practice: Good or Bad for your form?



## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

I think it's very beneficial for me. Though I do have my instructor watching me shoot as I do it. I would say about 2/3 of my practice is with blank bale, and then the last third is with a target.

Even if you don't have an instructor watching you, I would say it's good even for the first few ends just to warm up. Concentrate on your form, and getting a clean shot off. When I go to practice, it takes me a few shots to get back into the swing of things. Blank baling allows me to work on those, and especially if I had a portion of my form that needed help.

That's just my two cents though. Form is so much more important to me then the target though. I wouldn't mind blank baling for the whole time. I know the blank bale is helping me.


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## therazor302 (Jun 2, 2008)

I'll second what Enigma said, Blank Bale shooting is great for your form. You don't have to worry about aiming and you can go through every step in your mind. 

I LOVE reading about things before I do them and have read up tons on Archery. The problem is I can't apply them when I'm at the line. So Blank Bale shooting helps me know what it feels like and it allows people around me to see what it looks like to see any inconsistencies out at the line. Then again when I shoot blank bale's I shoot 5-10 ft away allowing me to close my eyes

It can get tedious and I see your point but just aim for nice tight groups if your shooting at 18m or have fun and making pictures.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

A lot of folks have the wrong idea that blank bale is simply to build up / maintain stamina but there's no reason why the archer shouldn't pay attention to his / her form in each and every shot. Although there's no target on the stuffed up hessian bags I use for short range shooting, I still make sure that my arrows don't all end up on the same spot (for obvious reasons of having to replace them = money spent) and when I direct the arrows to a certain part of the bag, I check to make sure that my entire body alignment is related. I believe it'll cause me to develop negative form were I to move my bowarm a few inches either way but still have the same upper body alignment.


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

what you shoud do is shoot barebail for just form. shoot with your eyes closed and video it. you will get so much feedback this way. also it helps me with my form especially wen i use a lower pound bow


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

In my case the usefulness of blank bale shooting is directly proportional to my level of discipline. If I correctly go through each and every stage of the shot sequence, and execute as near perfect a release as I am capable of. Then a half hour of blank bale is invaluable. If I get lazy or sloppy then it probably re-enforces poor form or mistakes. 

Dave


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

There are three very important things I do in addition to blank bail. 

First, using very light limbs, I watch myself in the mirror. In fact, I simply attached a piece of stretchy paracord to a 3' long dowel, then duck taped an old arrow to that so that I could draw and release without harm, inside the house.

Next, I made 3 recordings of the shot cycle, with things I want to remember when I get to the bail. I begin at the bail with my eyes closed, while listening to the recording on my MP3 player. It has the cycle from beginning to end, includes breathing patterns and helps establish timing.

While I am shooting my 3 shots at the bail, the video recorder is going.

The shooting last ONLY until I begin to feel tired, repeating the recording each time. Reviewing the video is my break time, before I move on to the target. When I review the video, I am amazed at what I 'thought' was good shows up as 'need's work'. The MP3 recording can also be used at the target.

I learned from my coach a long time ago,"Since everyone is different, the idea is not to try for the 'perfect' of others, but to use your own adaptations to perfect consistent form."


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## Archery Ang (Apr 24, 2006)

I definitely believe in blank bale practice, but I also think that there must be practice at a target. Sometimes the focus gets "fuzzy" when you're shooting at a blank bale for a long time, and you forget to implement the aiming part. 

As long as the focus is there on your shot and doing it RIGHT, blank bale practice can do wonders.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*to dot or to not dot*

Agree with AA.

I think you raise a good issue regarding the "10" feedback. The notion may be that blank bailing is to concentrate only on form in general or a particular exercise that your coach may have given you, but I'm of the school that we are capable of multi-tasking. I also think there is a negative to not using a spot or reduced size target, or at a minimum, there is an opportunity to work on target/scoring panic while blank bailing. One of the exercises that Griv once posted involved shooting targets or a "spot" at close range, for example. 

I think using a spot of some kind to point at while bailing helps condition me to focus on a spot while working on whatever it is I'm working on. It becomes less OMG! when I then go to the range and shoot at a target. I also score all my bail-shots. I think one of the things that causes target panic at tournaments is that we are not used to the act of scoring. We suddenly are among our peers and may be a little intimidated by the whole scoring "thing". So its not only the score I just shot, its "I can also make a fool out of myself because I haven't practiced scoring targets, and its not mine this time, its theirs". Becoming confident and relaxed about scoring will help with that IMHO, because it one less thing to stress over.


2c


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Blank bale training is probably one of the more important training tools an archer can use. If used properly it will give you the understanding of your shot execution. One of the biggest problems a person runs into when aiming is that they only focus on aiming and they forget to focus on the shot. And as most top archers know, aiming is more of an automatic response and the simplest part of shooting (I’m talking recurve here). Executing the shot while aiming and focusing on that shot execution determines whether you hit what you are aiming at. 

There are many different personalities a coach has to recognize before developing a training program for their archer. For instance, some archers are score oriented thus need to score during practice to be used to shooting for score. The only problem with this is that some archers shoot really good scores in practice and do not even come close to that score in a tournament. Pressure creates amazing results! Therefore some will have too high of expectations before they even shoot the tournament. 

A good coach will get that focus off the aiming so the archer can develop good form. Yes, you must shoot at a target as well. Getting a good blend is important. Yes, if you only shoot at a blank bale you are not getting the feedback from the target which you need. However, first you must learn to feel the execution of a shot and appreciate the small subtle differences that occur in your shot that a coach will not be able to see. Learning to feel the shot is so important and you learn that first by blank bale shooting with your eyes closed, then you progress with your eyes open and then with a target. Once you feel the shot and shoot a ten with that good feeling shot you only have to duplicate it over and over again. 

This is not a cure all, but just one of the important tools needed to get better scores.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Like it or not the focus on the aim is part of the shot sequence, but concentration on that part of the shot to the exclusion of all else is not a good thing. It is human nature to aim harder if the arrow is not going in the middle of the target or to do some thing else to get it there. I find that to avoid this I put a small face on the top half of the boss and then deliberately miss set the sight so that the arrows are hitting the bottom half of the boss. This removes the pressure of trying to hit the gold because I know I am not going to. It also tells me a lot more about the consistancey of my form because the grouping of the arrows means some thing where as with a blank boss it means nothing.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Warbow - 

For me, unless there's a specific part of the shot that needs work, it's almost a total waste of time and can almost be harmful. 

The biggest problem, as mentioned, is the lack of feedback. It's also incredibly boring, again without a specific goal in mind. "Perfecting the shot" ain't specific enough. 

The harmful part has to with natural anchors and the perceived full draw. Since the most biomechanically correct "full draw" is well behind the head, with true blind shooting, most people will tend to extend their draw to match that point. Unless there's a coach watching, it's too possible to overextend your draw by rotating your head away from the target. The shot feels great, until you open your eyes or try to use the sight.

A variation of blank bale shooting called "watch the arrow" has many of the same benefits, but without the risks. Simply set up for blank bale shooting, anchor, sight in on the target and then switch your focus from the target/sight to the tip of the arrow and watch it move through the clicker and launch. Since you're not aiming at release, you can work on various aspects of form, and since your watching the arrow and so the riser, get immediate feedback on your draw and follow-through. The fact the sighting was part of the exercise makes over-rotating the head difficult.

Viper1 out.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Warbow -
> 
> A variation of blank bale shooting called "watch the arrow" has many of the same benefits, but without the risks. Simply set up for blank bale shooting, anchor, sight in on the target and then switch your focus from the target/sight to the tip of the arrow and watch it move through the clicker and launch. Since you're not aiming at release, you can work on various aspects of form, and since your watching the arrow and so the riser, get immediate feedback on your draw and follow-through. The fact the sighting was part of the exercise makes over-rotating the head difficult.
> 
> Viper1 out.


I use this method in place of blank-bale to avoid the pitfalls that Viper described. - John


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

One of the hardest things to do is to be patient in your training. Yes, I have heard the comments about how boring it is to shoot blank bale and how little information you get back from this training method, but yet, when I was in Korea many of the archers would start out with the blank bale, then go to a target and start scoring. Then if they felt uncomfortable they would go back to the blank bale to work it out. This “feeling” is very hard to explain, but if you don’t find it your odds of success are quite limited. When you aim, the focus is on the aim and not the execution of the shot. When you close your eyes on a blank bale you can feel the shot. Is it correct? Well that’s where the target comes in handy to give you the feedback, but you need to know how to feel the shot before it will help you. Just watch an archer who is aiming at a target how they jerk the shot when the clicker clicks; it could be plucking, moving the bow hand, bow arm, head position, etc. You can be sure 90% of the time it will not be smooth as it should. Then put them on a blank bale and watch how their form smoothes out when the clicker clicks. No more flinching, jerking, etc. It is very telling. Now, if you train yourself on how to focus during the click you will be a much better archer. Period. Some of you will not need much blank bale training, but some will need a lot. I did need a lot and it was a wonderful tool that got me to the level I wanted to be. 

As for aiming. Rings are very popular in the recurve world. Compound archers will always want a pin or dot to aim with. It is very important for them. But a recurve archer must learn to focus on the execution right at the click of the clicker not at the aim. Darrell Pace said one time that he only had to be good for about .5 seconds of the shot. You can guess where that .5 seconds was.  Darrell Pace was a rare person who used a pin correctly in the recurve world, but I believe he fully understood how to focus on the execution of the shot and still aim with a pin. Most people cannot. I do not want you to think that I am saying aiming is not important. It is, but your focus has to be on following through correctly when that clicker clicks. That’s where blank bale training will teach you the difference.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

Maybe. To excel in any sport (or almost anything in life) there's going to be some dues paid to the "boring" stuff. The trick, IMHO, is to make the time devoted to "boring stuff" as productive as possible. That's why I'm more of a watch the arrow fan, than just blank baling - I've found it gives more bang for the buck. And yes, the difference in form between watching the arrow and shooting for real (aiming) can be easily seen and felt. The end result is to get the real shot as close to the parctice shot as possible. When things are going south, definately a trip to a close target and watching the arrow leave the bow pays off big time.

As far as aiming is concerned, unless there a hold off required for windy condidtions, I'm convinced it IS the least important part of the shot. The old saying, put the thing on the thing holds very well, except with us it's more of a put the thing (bull/rarget) IN the thing (aperture). 

People work differently, and I'm pretty mechanical when I shoot. It might be a matter or perception, but the "feel" isn't what I look for, it's more of the reaction, both mine and the bows, the result of the .5 seconds that Pace was talking about and the training of what happens during the click.

All centers around our culture of cause and effect. Seeing what happens works better for some people than feeling it and yeah, they ain't mutually exclusive.

Viper1 out.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Rick,

I'm with you on this. ALOT of my arrows are shot on blank bale... especially during the down time in the training/competition cycle (and when I find I'm trying too hard during the heavy cycle periods). I always warm up on blank bale (tournaments and practice), even if it's only a few arrows to get the muscles moving correctly. 

I am a feel person... and when the feel is there, everything else just clicks right along.

As for "aiming," I think scoring is important so that you are not suprised come tournament day, but that also has a place within the training cycle. Just aiming for the sake of aiming doesn't really make sense to me. Aiming happens on its own. You're eye naturally wants to put the little circle in the center of the big circle.

Finally, I must confess, I don't understand the watch the clicker thing at all. The clicker, as I understand it, is a draw check. If the feel is right, and you are set up correctly (because the feel is right), then the click is a byproduct of that. If the feel is wrong and you are not set up... then no click and what's the point of just yanking it through. If/when I have clicker problems, I go off clicker and back to blank bale to work out the shot. Then I have someone, ANYONE, watch to see if the clicker is sitting in the right place for MY shot... and adjust the clicker accordingly... not my form (unless it was a form problem/loss to begin with... which usually the blank baling helps to sort out).


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

sda - 

The clicker is a draw check, but most people, especially brginning intermediate level shooters' draw lengths haven't become consistent enough to use a clicker effectively. There are at least 5 or 6 major things that go into a person's draw length, some more subtle than others. Sure it's all part of what we call form, but that takes time and "feel" doesn't work for everybody. The act of pulling through the clicker really needs to be measured on a mm basis. You can (and have to) get a rough estimate by observation, but then making sure it happens everytime usually needs some kind of active feedback. Watching the clicker as you lock into anchor gives that feedback, watching the tip move back a mm or two confirms it. If after a while, something "feels wrong" then you can readjust clicker position, if necessary.

Not black magic stuff and not rocket science, just understanding that some people learn things differently. 

If things aren't going right when shooting for score (and not being able to run off and do the watch the arrow drill) I can visialize the arrow tip coming through the clicker (yes, during the actual shot) and somehow things fall back together. 

That's why it works, it gives shooters a concrete image to work from, even if it's only a mental one.

Viper1 out.


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## longbow billy (May 19, 2008)

Thanks Rick for posting and confirming my strong belief in serious blind bale work .Your book has been a godsend for all archers and during the days you and Pace truly ruled the archery world has always been inspiring.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Viper,

Well if there is one there thing that I absolutely believe it's that different things do work for different people! So, no criticism on what someone finds works for them. Everyone has different triggers. Having said that...

One of my frustrations when I watch some new recurve shooters, is that I think they go "on clicker" way too soon. It takes awhile, sometimes a long while, to get comfortable with any form and to get stretched out and in line. And then, heaven help them when they get tired... the bow shoulder creeps up into the ear and they will do ANYTHING to rip an arrow through the clicker. That's the beginner shooter. Blank Bale really speeds up this phase. Closed eyes while shooting blank bale is a miracle worker. Forget the clicker and learn about the bow and how to shoot an arrow.

Then the intermediate shooter (and this is where I put myself... sort of an advanced intermediate) gets to a relatively comfortable and consistant draw length and the clicker becomes appropriate. But this person is still working on trying to get to the proper line and hit the release/follow through. At this point, feel and focus become bigger factors. My thought is, and this is just my experience, that anything taking the concentration off of the shot or the "link" to the target (that sort of tunnel created from you to the target from the start of the shot through the last part of the follow through) is a conscious item that takes away from the natural flow of the shot. Yes, there is internal dialogue, but the subconscious techinique should be taking over for this shooter. No focus shifting. Blank bale... still important to ingrain that process in to the muscle memory.

As for the elite/world class archer... well, I'll let Rick speak to that aspect.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

sda -

You realize that we're actually saying the samething, right?

If you've read any of my other posts on clickers, I don't let "new" sight shooters use one until they are into 270 range on the indoor NFAA target. (Unless, there is some serious draw length issue or I see TP setting in, and then the program gets a little modified to include the use of a clicker earlier.)

You are correct, that taking the focus of the target helps, but I don't think that a lot of people get into "feeling the shot" as easily as we'd like to think. Watching the tip of the arrow, gives them a definate focus and immediate feedback. Once they are drawing to THEIR draw length minus a few mm and can pull through the clicker consistently, then individual aspects of form can be worked on more easily. Sometimes looking at the parts first and then the whole works and sometimes seeing the forest first works better than seeing the individual trees. 

I'm not totally against blank baling, and do teach it, but as a tool for specific aspect training, the trees as opposed to the forest.

Not saying this will work for the elite guys, but it sure does for the folks who just want to shoot the best they can. 

Viper1 out.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

I didn't actually realize we were saying the same thing... and I think it's cool to find that out through rational and contained conversation as opposed to when I see people resort to calling others dumb dumb heads. Kudos to us!


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## Feral Donkey (Nov 6, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Blank bale training is probably one of the more important training tools an archer can use. If used properly it will give you the understanding of your shot execution. One of the biggest problems a person runs into when aiming is that they only focus on aiming and they forget to focus on the shot. And as most top archers know, aiming is more of an automatic response and the simplest part of shooting (I’m talking recurve here). Executing the shot while aiming and focusing on that shot execution determines whether you hit what you are aiming at.
> 
> There are many different personalities a coach has to recognize before developing a training program for their archer. For instance, some archers are score oriented thus need to score during practice to be used to shooting for score. The only problem with this is that some archers shoot really good scores in practice and do not even come close to that score in a tournament. Pressure creates amazing results! Therefore some will have too high of expectations before they even shoot the tournament.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this, Mr. McKinney! That answered a lot of questions I had. Please feel free to add more.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Lordy….Viper1 you are opening a HUGE can of worms! There are a lot of comments I tend to agree but disagree. First is watching the arrow fly. That is called peeking and most people do not do a very good job of it. They normally move their head. This creates a whole slew of issues that would create a thread in itself. Yes, good archers can see their arrow fly (if they want to) but they have learned to move their eyes and not their head. However, when you watch the top archers who win Gold Medals, their eyes NEVER leave what they are aiming at. This is a very dangerous idea that I personally would not teach anyone to do unless they are 1300 shooters. 

Next is the feel of the shot. It is everything. Good archers have such tiny changes of form that a video and/or coach could not pick up the difference, but the feel of the shot can be “felt” by the archer. I call it hyper-mode. This is when everything slows down and you can detect, for instance, that you tensed up on the grip during the shot and it dropped low in the 10 or 9 ring. This is something that cannot be picked up by video or coach (do you detect an emphasis here? ). If you cannot feel it you will not get far in your shooting….IMHO, of course. :mg:

The clicker was developed as a draw check but I can assure you it is far more than that. It is without a doubt the most important item on your bow. It tells you when to release the shot. If you use the clicker as a draw check only, then you have the potential of target panic. This is when you want to release but you are not sure of letting go so you “almost” let go and then you yes, let go, no, yes, no, well, you get the picture. This is not seen much now since most recurve archers use the clicker as a release agent. This device is “felt” and “heard”. If you train yourself properly both of those items will tell you to release or as the Dutch say…”follow through.” In my opinion, the clicker is the most important advancement in recurve archery.

Now, when to use the clicker can be debated, but my suggestion is to get it on your bow ASAP! You do not want anyone to get trained in a method that will become ingrained into their shot sequence and then a few years later you have to retrain a different technique that is virtually opposite of what they were learning. For instance, without the clicker the archer will slowly creep forward to keep the aim as perfect as possible. Then when a clicker is attached they have to move the opposite direction that they have been getting good results with. This is not fun and very discouraging. Also, they will have a hard time learning to let go when the clicker “clicks”. You want your mind trained to let go when it clicks so you do not have to think about what to do with your fingers. This is so critical that I cannot express enough. 

Sorry to be so long but you guys have some good stuff here and it should be discussed. Hope you don’t mind…. :embara:

Now, how do you figure out the right draw length? Well, I recommend that you get someone to watch you when you are shooting on a blank bale with your eyes closed and without using a clicker. You are now trying to get the right draw length and someone will be able to place the clicker near your “comfortable” draw. This is a good starting point. You will need to move the clicker a little forward or backward once you use it, but it does help to get close. Yes, it will change as you grow and/or improve your form. This should be checked constantly. I had Sheri check my draw at least every other month to make sure that I was not over drawing my shot or under drawing which is far worse. 

Ok….enough for now….and don’t forget this is just my theory. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. :darkbeer:


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## Howattman54 (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd like to second what Feral Donkey said. It is an honor to have someone like Mr. McKinney share a bit of his experience and insight with those of us who enjoy and could benefit from such knowledge. While I've never had the opportunity to meet Mr. McKinney, I met and shot with one of his former teammates Darrell Pace on a few occasions and found his thoughts on the "mental" side of archery to be very valuable and worthwhile.

Thanks again, Rick!


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

*Blank Bale*

I shoot a blank target into my closet at my apartment, about 3 steps away and work on my form. No running to the range etc. just no excuse to practice. But more important is the form work, I only shoot one arrow then retrieve it, no possible aiming that way and gives me a nice little break to review my shot sequence in my mind while I take that 3 steps to get me arrow. Thanks to all who responded on this one, great thread. Thanks.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

The problem with the written word and more so the Interent (due to limited typing time etc) is getting what is said or meant across the air.

Good points, and I don't think it's really openning an can of worms.

I never said anything about watching the arrow in flight. The exact opposit, you're watching the clicker/riser and the once the arrow is gone it's gone. No peeking. Sure, the samething can be done by focusing on the sight and ignoring the target, but people being people will tend to aim, whether they want to or not. Watching the arrow break the clicker just adds a level or two of feedback. 

(For folks who've never actually tried this, give it a go, you've got nothing to loose and maybe something to gain.)

"Feel" unfortunately is relative, what you feel and what I or anyone else feels may or may not be the samething, as you said, it's hard to describe and even harder to explain. Sure, there times when things "feel" right and when they don't but I think for most westerners, it makes more sense to think cause and effect rather than feel. It's been my experience that some people are better served by getting the mechanics down first and developing the feel from that, rather than the other way around. If the "feel" never happens they might still do quite well for themselves. Just think "feel" is too vague for some folks.

I agree completely on the clicker part. But again, time and space constraints can limit discussions. I first began using a clicker in my barebow days because if TP. I also mentioned the early introduction of a clicker in cases of TP. And yes, in my experience it takes msot people quite a while to get the hang of using one correctly, and even longer for it to become "natural". 

When to introduce a clicker can be a hot topic. What has to be remembered, it that a lot of archers, even FITA/Oly type shooters are not actually planning on going to the Olympic trials or FITA worlds. It's a hobby, something they enjoy doing and actually have to fit in to a fairly busy sechedule. For these people (most of the folks I work with anyway), going the whole nine yards from the get-go, can turn off as many as it sustains. Thats why I've adopted a more metered approach, increasing the workload as the shooter becomes both physically and mentally ready to handle it. Will this approach work for people with early Olympic asperations? Maybe, maybe not, but the guys and gals who want to shoot the best they can without devoting their entire lives to it, yeah it does. It also let them find their own niche on exactly how far THEY want to go and in what direction. 

With proper supervision, the creeping forward thing sans clicker can be spotted fairly easily and stopped. If not, then ye, it's time to "click". I used a 270/300 spot score, as a turning point. It really isn't that difficult, and certainly shouldn't take "years" for a fit adult with decent eyesight to achieve with even modest coaching. As far as "changing gears", I don't thaink that's a big an issue as you say. Once a pattern is engrained, ADDING to it (as opposed to modifying it) does become a natural progression. It also helps establish intermediate goals, which can be a very positive influence on new shooters.

Thanks Rick, your time is certainly appreciated. This has been good discussion and if nothing else suggests that there's more than one way to skin a cat. The trick is to know which cat is being skinned. 

Viper1 out.


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## rwsbow (May 25, 2007)

At what stage should an archer, without a coach, decide when it is time to progress from the eyes closed blank bale to the eyes open blank bale? I am very interested in progressing to the next level...

Also, what am I looking for when doing the eyes open...am I trying to combine the eyes closed "feel" with the visual inputs of where my body is positioned?

Thanks for any help....


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

rws -

THAT'S THE PROBLEM!! As I stated earlier, the "blind" blank bale shooting may give you a "feel" but without feedback it may not be the right feeling. What feels right may be wrong! Working without a coach or at least an objective observer, it can get really tough. 

I'd go right to the watch the TIP OF THE ARROW exercise. Once you know that your form is soild (again, there's the need for a coach or observer) then you can go back to blank (or blind) baling to check the "feeling". 

You're watching the tip of the arrow come through the clicker, but you're also getting feedback on what you bowhand/arm is doing and how the bow is reacting. Only thing you can't "see" is the release hand/arm and that's were, you guessed it, the observer comes in - again.

Viper1 out.


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## Landjaeger (Mar 15, 2005)

rwsbow said:


> At what stage should an archer, without a coach, decide when it is time to progress from the eyes closed blank bale to the eyes open blank bale? I am very interested in progressing to the next level...
> 
> Also, what am I looking for when doing the eyes open...am I trying to combine the eyes closed "feel" with the visual inputs of where my body is positioned?
> 
> Thanks for any help....



I'd be interested in hearing Mr. MKinney's take on this.


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## tweaky (Sep 15, 2008)

For me, it's real simple *unless you're aiming at something form cannot be practiced. * There I've said it aloud... Whew, I hope one of my coaches doesn't read this... 

I've watched people do it (no target and/or eyes closed) and I've watch the little things that change without aiming then everything changes back again when there's a target.

*I will use a target even if I'm standing less than 5 m/yds away.*

*There must be a measurable result or you are wasting your time.* I learn more about the shot when I can understand why a bad shot is/was a bad shot. At 20m a bad shot is touching an 8 and can be forgivable if I know why. When things start to creep toward large cherries, and blueberries, it usually means something has changed and I can't imagine how closing my eyes or shooting at a blank bale will help me to correct errors in my form or keep me consistent in the first place.

*Besides, who really aims at a blank bale without aiming at a spot on the bale anyway? If, you think you do this without aiming then you're kidding yourself...* Be honest now...?

In short, success, even in "form," is a measurable process and anything that does not allow you to see an immediate result, good or bad, is simply bad practice.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

tweaky said:


> For me, it's real simple *unless you're aiming at something form cannot be practiced. * There I've said it aloud... Whew, I hope one of my coaches doesn't read this...
> 
> I've watched people do it (no target and/or eyes closed) and I've watch the little things that change without aiming then everything changes back again when there's a target.
> 
> ...


Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yours may work for you. For me, I'll pay heed to an archer who has competed and won on an international level. Rick McKinney knows what it takes to train effectively and perform optimally.
We are in a sport where THE top performers and coaches (John Magera, Rick McKinney, Vittorio Frangilli) are willing and happy to share what WORKS. Rick, John, Vittorio, thank you so much for taking the time to inform us in this forum.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

midwayarcherywi said:


> We are in a sport where THE top performers and coaches (John Magera, Rick McKinney, Vittorio Frangilli) are willing and happy to share what WORKS. Rick, John, Vittorio, thank you so much for taking the time to inform us in this forum.


I think it is great that this debate includes some archery greats as well as mere mortals. Rick's input and the subsequent discussion between Rick and Viper really helps distill the matter in a very informative manner, and in more detail than I could find just about anywhere. Thanks to everybody. As to Vittorio Frangilli, he's the one who put it into my mind to question blank bale shooting and why I started this thread. In his book "The Heretic Archer" he says that blank bale shooting can be bad. Saying that blank bale practice is fine for warm up and cool down, but that it can re-enforce small mistakes in form, though I'm sure there is some nuance to what he says and I don't claim to have summarized the totality of his views on the subject. But, even so, it is with some irony that you invoke his name in a post where you seem to imply that tweaky's opinion is opposed by all knowledgeable archers, when it is not necessarily so.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper I apologize for not reading your comment about watching the arrow correctly. You are correct when you say it is hard to communicate what you want to say right when using the forum, but eventually we figure it out or at least try. Watching the tip of the arrow as you come through the clicker is an excellent training tool. I have used it for years and still do. It gives you an understanding of how you move through the clicker, the length of time it takes and what to expect when it clicks. All good tips…so to speak. 

I think some of you are getting a wrong impression as to how to use the blank bale. A part of it is closing your eyes, another part of it is opening your eyes, another part of it is aiming at something on the blank bale, another part of it is using a target, and then using a target and blank bale at a distance on and off. All of these should be used and intermixed. It depends on what you are working on. I will give you a quick rundown of how I did a lot of my training. Say for instance I normally took a long break from November and most of December. This meant that I lost my callous’ and most of my strength. So to build up, I started on a blank bale up near 5 feet or so. I would shoot about 5-10 arrows for the first day and stop. This is with eyes open and really didn’t focus on anything except motion. I wanted to keep moving and quickly. I did this for about 5 days with a maximum of 10 arrows per day. This allowed for my fingers to get a little tougher and work out any stiffness I might have developed for not shooting at all. Then the next 5 days I would double the amount of arrows. This normally took a good month to be up to at near 100 arrows per day without injury. I spent most of the beginning time just building strength and a callous again. Now, I also would start trying to feel the shot movement. This means that I would check my grip (is it relaxed?) then I would check my fingers on the string (are they relaxed?). Then I watched my clicker or tip of the point and watched how the motion was going. During this time of motion I would make an effort to feel my front shoulder to make sure it would stay down and then quickly feel the back shoulder or shoulder blade moving around toward my spine. Thus the back elbow would be moving around in an arc towards my back. These feelings have to be mastered in order to get an idea as to what needs to be done while working your way through the clicker. Now, the most important part of this whole exercise is focusing on the click. Because when the clicker clicks you are to execute the shot. This means that your draw hand will come back closely along your neck and your bow arm will stay fully extended towards the target. You can actually watch the bow, bow hand and arm as you do this to see that it continues in that straight line you want. Now that I felt it and understood it, then I might close my eyes to see if I can replicate that same feeling. If I do, then I open my eyes and do it some more. Then, the “electric Kool-aid acid test” is doing exactly the same thing on the target but at a distance. If this does not happen then I take the target off and shoot at the blank bale at the distance. Thus, I am aiming at a larger target (the bale) and still trying to feel the shot to make sure it is done properly. Then I put the target on and off at intervals to make sure I can do it either way. 

Now as a new archer, I want them to not use a target at first so they can get the idea of what they need to do or if they really want to shoot at a target like most people want to do, then I put the 122 cm face on while they are about 5 yards away. This helps ease the tension that they will deal with trying to hit the center. Then we work on the typical things like, finger placement, bow hand placement, stance, anchor, etc. But in time I get them to work on these simple little procedures on a blank bale….with eyes open. There is no sense in using blank bale with eyes closed yet because as Viper pointed out they are not sure of what to focus on yet. However, once this person gets the idea of how to execute a simple shot, then you work them into learning how to feel the shot. I know Viper you are a non-feeling type of guy and that’s fine. But I would try my best to teach each person on learning to feel and not be so dependent on anyone but themselves. Coaches are nothing but tools and sometimes tools need to be put in the toolbox. A coach, wife, friend, or anyone else can give you the eyes you need to tell you if something is off. You ask them to watch something and then they tell you what they see or you use a video. I am not saying a coach is not important. But let’s not change the focus from the archer. You use what you need to advance your shooting. Now, you intermix this blank bale shooting with target shooting. You do need the feedback of consistent shot placement and you only get that by arrow grouping on a target. So you need blank bale shooting along with your target shooting to be balanced. Mix them up and play with both. Those who have little time to train, then they become more dependant on blank bale training due to restrictions, but it can still be a wonderful asset.

Speaking of advancing, I want to be perfectly clear that I don’t feel that everyone wants to be an Olympian and I have never advocated such a thing. I want you to achieve the level you want to achieve as long as you enjoy your shooting. That means improving your skill. Most people don’t start out thinking or wanting to be an Olympian, it develops over time. First they are just having fun shooting. Their skill level improves and they start winning local events and then larger events, until finally they just might have a shot at becoming an Olympian if they think about it. However, some will not want that and I would never want someone thinking that it is the only thing because it isn’t. Archery is fun and it should always be the central focus of why you shoot. If not, then get a job that pays well. At least when you are miserable you get paid for it!


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## tweaky (Sep 15, 2008)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And yours may work for you. For me, I'll pay heed to an archer who has competed and won on an international level. Rick McKinney knows what it takes to train effectively and perform optimally.
> We are in a sport where THE top performers and coaches (John Magera, Rick McKinney, Vittorio Frangilli) are willing and happy to share what WORKS. Rick, John, Vittorio, thank you so much for taking the time to inform us in this forum.




Please forgive me, I meant no disrespect to any of the archers you mentioned. I simply made a statement, offered an opinion, that reflects my understanding of what you, and others, say "WORKS." Given my objectives with archery and the people that are assisting me to achieve my goals, and the amount of practice I put in, I'm not convinced that this method (for *me*, and perhaps only me, in all of the world)... "WORKS." 

I am _very fortunate_ to shoot with more than one archer that is competing on the international level, simply by sharing membership at the same archery club, and the best advice I've ever received is... "Nothing is carved in stone, what works for one will surely fail another." I will not name drop as it would be completely unfair to attempt to speak for them, and probably out of turn, given the nature of this subject.

However, I will thank you for reminding me that I'm a "no body" in the archery world and making certain that I've been most assuredly put in my place. And as such, I will think twice before "chiming in" the next time one of my opinions decides to rear its ugly head, unless of course, it happens to tow the party line.

Mr. McKinney, I certainly respect your opinion and achievements, and offer an apology if I've offended you or anyone else. Tony that goes for you too. Perhaps, I should have read the entire thread prior to posting...


Shawn


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Warbow said:


> I think it is great that this debate includes some archery greats as well as mere mortals. Rick's input and the subsequent discussion between Rick and Viper really helps distill the matter in a very informative manner, and in more detail than I could find just about anywhere. Thanks to everybody. As to Vittorio Frangilli, he's the one who put it into my mind to question blank bale shooting and why I started this thread. In his book "The Heretic Archer" he says that blank bale shooting can be bad. Saying that blank bale practice is fine for warm up and cool down, but that it can re-enforce small mistakes in form, though I'm sure there is some nuance to what he says and I don't claim to have summarized the totality of his views on the subject. But, even so, it is with some irony that you invoke his name in a post where you seem to imply that tweaky's opinion is opposed by all knowledgeable archers, when it is not necessarily so.


I am reticent to reply because of your reputation as an argumentative guy.
Quit trying to read between my lines!
The tone was neutral and I meant it to be neutral.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I am reticent to reply because of your reputation as an argumentative guy.
> Quit trying to read between my lines!
> The tone was neutral and I meant it to be neutral.


I take you at your word. I felt when I read your post that you were, in a polite way, smacking tweaky down for disagreeing with Rick (and by implication, others you mentioned in your post) even though you granted him his right to his own opinion. I don't know if tweaky also got that impression, but it would seem so since he has apologized for offering his opinion and possibly offending people, though I'd hope nobody would be offended by his comments, especially in the middle of a debate on the topic. I made my response to you because I wanted to add some perspective that perhaps some other high end archers may agree with some part of what tweaky said.

While it is true that I can be a tenacious debater at times, I try also to always be calm and rational, and to respond in kind--yet not make any personal attacks, even if goaded. In the case of this thread, I not only recognize that there are legitimate areas of disagreement in areas of archery, I'm interested in learning what they are in detail so that I can understand archery better. Sometimes I'll use debate as a way of getting at the crux of the matter, testing ideas against one another. I think we can see by the interchange between Rick and Viper that that can be a productive and informative way to analyze an issue, as long as people are willing to be some what rational in their comments, as Rick and Viper clearly are.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Nice to see Rick posting--I'll have to visit this forum more often now.

Here's a run-down for anyone who hasn't heard of him (if it's possible to shoot a bow and not have heard of Rick McKinney) or wonder if he really knows his stuff or not.

1977, 1983, 1985 - World Target Champion (individual)
1975, 1978, 1979, 1989, 1984 - World Silver Medalist (individual)
1981 - World Bronze Medalist (individual)
1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1983 - World Target Champion (team)
1985 - World Silver Medalist (team)
1995 - World Bronze Medalist (team)
1976, 1984, 1988 - U.S. Olympic archery teams
1984 - Olympic silver medalist (individual)
1988 - Olympic silver medalist (team)
1983 - SportsMan of the Year, United States Olympic Committee
1980, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1994 Shenk Award, National Archery Association
1980, 1981, 1983, 1985, 1986 - Athlete of the Year Award, National Archery Association
1981, 1983, 1984, 1985 - Toxophilite of the Year Award, Arizona State Archery Association
Author of "Rick McKinney: The Simple Art of Winning", a instructional guide for Olympic recurve archers published in 1996.


Can't say I'll agree with everything he says (I don't believe much, if anything, is carved in stone either), but it's quite obvious the man has proven time and again that he knows how to shoot a bow. I'd bet he's coached a few winners as well.

'Course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's nice to know what opinions are backed by actual experience. Tangible credentials have become a rare commodity in a world of internet experts.

Chad


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## Feral Donkey (Nov 6, 2005)

> 'Course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's nice to know what opinions are backed by actual experience. Tangible credentials have become a rare commodity in a world of internet experts.
> 
> Chad


Very well said, Chad!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

LBR said:


> 'Course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's nice to know what opinions are backed by actual experience. Tangible credentials have become a rare commodity in a world of internet experts.


And I agree. I always read posts by Rick, Vittorio, Limbwalker and others with much extra interest. It is, frankly, pretty exciting to have them add their knowledgeable insights to the discussions here at AT.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks folks. I just love to talk archery and enjoy the sharing of informaiton. Although we may not always agree, it is important to discuss the differences. It just might give someone an idea of how to get better. 

I am not even remotely offended by others whose opinions do not coincide with mine. I give this information freely, just as they do. We are having a great discussion and I for one appreciate the feedback I am getting. It forces me to make my thoughts more clearly and it is obvious that sometimes my thoughts are sporadic and unorganized. As for those who do not agree with blank bale training. That’s great! Especially those who compete against us US archers! :shade: So, no offense taken tweaky. As for Vittorio and his book. I like the book but do not agree on every aspect of it, just like I am sure he does not agree with every aspect of my book. I consider Vittorio and Michele good friends and have the utmost respect for them. But I still do not have to agree 100% with them. It’s what you get out of a book that can help you is far more important than those ideas that do not.


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## tweaky (Sep 15, 2008)

Rick McKinney said:


> Thanks folks. I just love to talk archery and enjoy the sharing of informaiton. Although we may not always agree, it is important to discuss the differences. It just might give someone an idea of how to get better.
> 
> I am not even remotely offended by others whose opinions do not coincide with mine. I give this information freely, just as they do. We are having a great discussion and I for one appreciate the feedback I am getting. It forces me to make my thoughts more clearly and it is obvious that sometimes my thoughts are sporadic and unorganized. As for those who do not agree with blank bale training. That’s great! Especially those who compete against us US archers! :shade: So, no offense taken tweaky. As for Vittorio and his book. I like the book but do not agree on every aspect of it, just like I am sure he does not agree with every aspect of my book. I consider Vittorio and Michele good friends and have the utmost respect for them. But I still do not have to agree 100% with them. It’s what you get out of a book that can help you is far more important than those ideas that do not.


Thanks, Rick but how will you see us coming... y'all will have yer eyes closed... lol.


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## longbow billy (May 19, 2008)

You are a class act Mr. McKinney; with the heart of a champion! Thanks again for sharing your knowledge


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

Kinda figured we were on the same page. Misunderstandings usually arise from the "words" and not the intention. Your post of 1:30 summed it up really well. Thanks. 

Viper1 out.


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## voxito (Apr 16, 2006)

I agree completely with warbow and with most of what viper is saying. 



Viper1 said:


> The biggest problem, as mentioned, is the lack of feedback.


True, when all you work on is form aim can get sloppy, but realize that isn't the focus of the exercise, so I usually don't worry about that.

But-


Viper1 said:


> The harmful part has to with natural anchors and the perceived full draw. Since the most biomechanically correct "full draw" is well behind the head, with true blind shooting, most people will tend to extend their draw to match that point. Unless there's a coach watching, it's too possible to overextend your draw by rotating your head away from the target. The shot feels great, until you open your eyes or try to use the sight.


This exact thing happened to me last winter while blind bailing in my attic when the weather was too bad to shoot outside. I was all too excited in my 1/2" gain in draw length after only working on my form for less than a week. I practiced this for a whole week, and developed this to a reasonable extent as my new form for the season and worked more on it. Good ole mississippi weather sure enough brought me a week of 70 degree highs in december (like now) so I got outside to do a little tuning. Just like viper said, I couldn't see my pin and had to overhaul a 1000 shots worth of practice. All of this was done with nobody watching me, so this was all unexpected, but at least it was only a minor setback and only one wasted week of winter.

I'll still practice and be an advocate for blind and blank bail shooting, but like rick said, neither are cure alls. I've come to appreciate blank bail as much as blind bail. Just setting up your normal whitetail mat at 70m without a face on it and focusing on your shot(not aiming) is the best practice to me besides actual tournament-like practice. I'm the kind of person that if I see something that works well for anybody I'll at least try it before I knock it, and that's what I really recommend. Find info you can trust to at least be beneficial in some way and go try it during the off season. Who knows...


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Interesting point, watching arrows fly, for me the easiest way is to keep looking at the target. If the light is good I usually see them rise up through the ring of the sight.


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## Esquire (Oct 7, 2006)

LBR said:


> Nice to see Rick posting--I'll have to visit this forum more often now.


I agree. I usually only lurk a bit on this forum and I just stumbled across this thread. I recently ordered Rick's book and it has been VERY helpful to me. In fact, the last two books I've read on Archery have been Rick's and Viper's (both have provided useful insights).

But Rick, your discussion on this thread of "feel" and "blank bale practice" help make sense of things I've recently begun to grasp at dimly, and I have to agree with Chad.

I'll have to visit more often...

Thanks.

Mike


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

A friend just turned me on to this thread 

As some of you know  I'm a HUGE supporter of using the Blank Bale as part of an archer's practice routine. It's been the number one thing that has gotten my shooting back and even surpassed the level it use to be. It has also helped manage or even cure my issues dealing with TP.

The 2 primary things it has done for me are help reinstill confidence and engrain my form into my motor/muscle memory to the point it becomes instinctive, which basically has improved my consistantcy.

Before I started using the Blank Bale I had been using a techinique similar to it that the Korean's use with some of their Olympic archers. It involves shooting flu flus or arrows into the air with no regard to aiming or hitting a target...but the problem with that was having to drive to a spot where I could safely do that...and the Blank Bale can be shot anywhere there is a good enough back stop.

The problem I had when I first started using these techiniques as training methods was a lack of discipline. I often would get side tracked and loose my patience and start shooting at targets before those training techiniques had time to do what they were created to do...so it's very important that an archer give these training techiniques the time they need to truly experience and benefit from using them.

I had also developed another use of the Bale that helped begin to combine aiming and form that I latter found out was called The Bridge. Where I would basically use the Blank Bale as a big target from various ditances to relieve the issues regarding TP that I was dealing with.

Even in a worst case scenario where an archer has no guidance and direction on good form...I still believe the Blank Bale can still be of benefit.

The number one thing I believe an archer should develop is CONSISTANTCY...however that may look...as long as that consistantcy isn't causing them to miss the target...and the Blank Bale is a great place to help develop CONSISTANTCY.

Ray


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper1 I have been thinking about some of the comments on this thread and how if you try something and it does not work, then we (me included) comment on how bad it is or it doesn’t work well for most, etc. Many people do not quite understand what another person is saying with absolute certainty unless you spend time to figure out exactly what is said, just as we have discussed here. I will use an example from my past if you all will indulge me for a moment of reminiscing. 

Years ago, Darrell Pace was one of the first to shoot Spin Wing vanes and claimed they were the best. I figured I would try them and found them to be lacking without a doubt. My groups opened up and so I figured the only reason Darrell was using them was because he was being sponsored by Range-O-Matic, the makers of the Spin Wing vane. I voiced this opinion to those who asked why I did not use the Spin Wings. Anyway, I received a call from the son-in-law of the owner of Range-O-Matic. He was a USAT team member and asked me why I did not like the vanes. I told him that they did not group well and I got better results with my “Miro-vanes(sp)” made by Shig Honda. He asked me if I wouldn’t mind trying them again at the next training camp and he would set them up. As my ego was fuming from this “insult”, after all who does he think he is telling me I don’t know what I am doing? :angry: Well, needless to say, I told him that sure, if he was willing to spend the time and effort I would try them but I had my doubts and told him so. It was more to confirm to him that they did not work for me. Well, when we were at the next camp I gave him 9 arrows and said have fun and walked away. He had to clean off the fletchings and then he fletched me up with some Spin Wings. I looked at them once he was finished and told him I doubt that they would work and sure enough they grouped horribly! I looked at him and smiled. He said, “Don’t worry, I have a few things to try before we find what will work for you.” So he took the arrows and stripped them down and refletched them again with a different placement and angle. An hour or so later, he gave me the arrows again. I shot them and my heart skipped a beat! They grouped REALLY good at 50 meters. Well, then I thought, I have three other distances to try before I got too excited. Needless to say, they grouped exceptionally well! As I swallowed my pride and looked a bit sheepish at him:embara:, I asked him what he did to make them work. He told me how to test the fletchings and figure out what will work and what will not work. I was so thankful that I let him talk me into trying them again. A few months later at the World Target Championships I set a new 70 meter world record on the third day and going on to win the Individual title. It is a wonderful feeling shooting the best score ever at a very stressful event. I feel that the Spin Wings gave me just a bit more edge on my shooting and never would have had that opportunity if it wasn’t for giving it another try. What was even more humbling was that all the Soviet men were in line to shake my hand right after I set the world record. The US archers came up to me after words and asked what that was all about. I had to grin.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

Thanks for that. We're all human and with that goes all the pluses and minuses. Best we can do it give things (equipment and technique) a fair shot and call them like we see them WITH all the qualifiers and WITHOUT being closed minded about other possibilities. 

In some cases, it also helps to know where certain people are coming from. Yup, you're one of the good guys, and that was never in question.

Viper1 out.


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## route66 (Jul 24, 2006)

*Rick for president*

This is a most educational thread because of Rick's involvement. A few years ago I heard that Rick put on a seminar but we missed it. I hope he considers putting on more seminars in the future - I for one will be sure to not miss it!

Rick for president - I'd vote for him.
sorry for the hijack


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Great points Rick. Really enjoyed that post... and this thread...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Thanks folks. I just love to talk archery and enjoy the sharing of informaiton. Although we may not always agree, it is important to discuss the differences. It just might give someone an idea of how to get better.
> 
> I am not even remotely offended by others whose opinions do not coincide with mine. I give this information freely, just as they do. We are having a great discussion and I for one appreciate the feedback I am getting. It forces me to make my thoughts more clearly and it is obvious that sometimes my thoughts are sporadic and unorganized. As for those who do not agree with blank bale training. That’s great! Especially those who compete against us US archers! :shade: So, no offense taken tweaky. As for Vittorio and his book. I like the book but do not agree on every aspect of it, just like I am sure he does not agree with every aspect of my book. I consider Vittorio and Michele good friends and have the utmost respect for them. But I still do not have to agree 100% with them. It’s what you get out of a book that can help you is far more important than those ideas that do not.


Now that's the kind of attitude I would like to see more often on some of these message boards....especially when people disagree. Nothing wrong with disagreeing...but it's refreshing to see someone handle it with respect.

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up to Rick

Ray


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## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

One thing to remember about any exercise you do, the attitude you have greatly affects its effectiveness. So two people could do the same exercise and have totally different results depending on their views.

I would suggest the book The Inner Game of Tennis. It is truly an amazing book that I read for one of my Masters classes. It talks about alot of areas but I found that I really related to the idea of being present for the shots. Just experiencing them without judgement. Instead of shotting then saying 'This was wrong' or 'That sucked' you just shoot, feel the shot and move on. Allow the body time to learn the shot and understand the feeling without your head getting in their and bossing your body around.

Here is an example I use. When you trip you dont say 'Left foot go here, right leg shift' do you? No, your body just makes all the adjustments on its own. When you learned to walk as a baby did you say to yourself 'Ok now shift weight and lift leg to approxiamately 30 degrees' or say "Oh I did this wrong"? No, you just did it and did it and did it unless you could walk. Only later on did we learn to judge and 'coach' our bodies. 

I am not saying that you should never coach but try it sometime. Blank bale without judging or coaching but really get into experiencing the shot. See if you notice a difference. 

As for Rick, I think he has the perfect attitude as an archer and a coach. He is willing to offer his opinion but doesn't feel that everyone has to agree. He shows alot of humility because I am not sure if I could be that gracious if I was in his place


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

If this was mentioned above I apologize for the re-entry.

It was my understanding that the best way to learn how to shoot a clicker was to do just that. Take the sights off the bow, get close to the bale and practice coming through the clicker until it feels natural. I guess with some this could be a week of noting but close bale shooting..perhaps even two weeks, perhaps more. But, the point is to get natural with the clicker. Then start working with the sights.

I think the vast majority of coaches will start a shooter with the clicker as soon as the basics are in place.

If you watch some of the Korean shooters in slow motion you will note they take a quick glance (at times) at the arrow tip while drawing the bow to see where the tip of the arrow is in relation to the clicker....then they never look at it again.

Is there a top archery who does not use a blank bale for training, warm ups, or seriously working on problems with his shot? If it's good enough for these guys then it has to be good enough for me. It's the most valuable tool to a quality consistent shot. Clicker is second.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not to make Rick's head any bigger than it already is... 

But this forum truly is honored to have him posting here, and I for one am both greatly appreciative, and a bit surprised. 

Rick, one thing you wrote ( and I apologize for coming in late and infrequently these days) was:



> Good archers have such tiny changes of form that a video and/or coach could not pick up the difference, but the feel of the shot can be “felt” by the archer


I couldn't agree with you more on this. When I am coaching, I will usually tell a more advanced student that I can only help them so far, the rest is up to them, and I would discuss the importance of them developing a sense of "feel" for a good shot. One student in particular I probably told this 100 times, and it's because of exactly what you said. 

Often I would see a coach react either favorably or unfavorably when a student's arrow landed on the target. When they did this, I would always wonder two things... 1) did they know how that shot FELT to the archer? and 2) did they know where the archer was AIMING?

Usually the answer is no and no. But that sure doesn't keep most coaches (even some that are highly regarded) from acting as if they knew exactly what the quality of the shot was or where the archer was aiming... Cracks me up every time.  Only the archer knows for sure.

John


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> ...this forum truly is honored to have him posting here, and I for one am both greatly appreciative, and a bit surprised.


I'll second that. More than once I've seen some good folks with gobs of good information that they were willing to share get run off of a board. Usually by some self-appointed "expert" who's biggest archery accomplishment was the number of posts they had submitted.

Hope you have thick skin Rick, and hope to see you around here for a long time to come!

Chad


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Rick:
Not to steal this thread, but I was intrigued buy your conversion to Spin Wing Vanes. At this years outdoor Nationals the pros&cons of spin vs straight vanes was subject of conversation by the 60+ guys. Doc,David Brandfass, told of a test Easton had done, shooting 100 arrows fletched with spins Vs. 100 fletched with straight vanes, using a shooting machine @ 70M. The spins averaged 9.8, while the straights averaged 8.3. Since returning home I have tried spin wings, and have not realized much improvement in groups. I expect it is more me than the vanes. My question is.If it's not a trade secret What was the, "how to test" the son-in-law told you.

Thanks
Fritz


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Ha…Ha! John… A big head? ME? :shade:

Yes, I laugh to myself when I ask an archer how the shot felt. I normally try to get them to know the difference between a bad shot and a good shot. Some will pluck the string or jerk their head or twist their wrist or something else just as bad and when I ask them how it felt they say… “ok”. Then when they shoot a good shot I ask them how it felt and they say… “ok”. I know then and there that it will take some time for them to understand the “feel” of the shot. To me it is one of the most important parts of the shot, but as discussed earlier some do not have the same opinion since feel is subjective and not objective. 

Thick skin…well… I am usually ok as long as I get respect since I give respect. When respect is not given, it gets a bit tough. 

Spin wing testing. Well…maybe…whoever wants to start a new thread maybe it would be best since this one has gotten a bit off topic and VERY long.


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## LoveMyHoyt (Nov 29, 2008)

*Spin Wings*

Rick - 
How about it if you start a new thread about SpinWings? I don't have anyone local to discuss this with and I would be interested in knowing what else was done with them. How do the SW Elites compare to the regular SW's. Are there other ways of putting them on? I have some put on according to the directions and I have a couple that I put on going the other way and then folded them back on themselves. As far as I can tell, they fly about the same, but the latter seem to have better clearance.
What else can I try???
Thanks for your willingness to share.
Angie


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Some will pluck the string or jerk their head or twist their wrist or something else just as bad and when I ask them how it felt they say… “ok”. Then when they shoot a good shot I ask them how it felt and they say… “ok”.


Ha, ha. I was laughing when I read that. Been there. That's a sure way to gauge the progress of a student alright. When they can give you better feedback than "okay", you have a chance to get somewhere. Esp. when the feedback the archer gives and the visual cues the coach sees match up. Then it's a thing of beauty 

John.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick, John -

Might be playing with a little symantics here. I said earlier that I don't rely on feel, but go through the shot sequence mechanically or "by the numbers". Clearly, there is a "feel" involved, but it's not something mystical or black box. A good shot is one that happens with little effort (meaning than the alignment was optimal, forces maintained throughout the shot and resultant follow through clean and without any "extra" movenments. Proprioception tells us if we plucked and where our body parts end up and we can both see and feel bow movement and "shock" due to improper alignment or loss of tension. 

I think we've all had shots that "felt" lousey but pinwheeled the X. I agree, those are actually lousey shots. Worse are shots that "feel" great but don't land as expected. In nornal exchanges we all use the word "feel" and I don't care if a shooter thinks a shot felt good or bad, I need them to know what did or didn't work, did he feel what went wrong. (Does the shooter know he collapsed, grabbed the bow, plucked etc - and hopefully why.) 

As far as the "feel" before the shot. again not too concerned witrh that. If a shot doesn't "feel" (for any reason) right before the release, it should never be taken. Being able to recognize that and break down is a necesary skill.

On some boards/type of archery, the word "feel" is thrown around very liberally, as in "shooting by feel". Sorry, if the meaning got lost in the translation here. 

Viper1 out.


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## tweaky (Sep 15, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> If a shot doesn't "feel" (for any reason) right before the release, it should never be taken. Being able to recognize that and break down is a necessary skill.


I'm still at odds with the whole concept of blank bale shooting but as I've said before that's perhaps just me. (*FYI* - _I have started to work with it and will give it some time_) 

However, I do find that "Feel," regardless of its interpretation is important... All too often, I've heard the little voice in my head screaming "LET IT DOWN!" and have released a poor shot anyway.

Viper1, Rick, or anyone else that may have a thought...

Is there a method of practice that will help to listen to the inner voice, or is this just an experience issue?

:embara:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tweaky - 

The ability to let down is critical and it is a learned skill. With some people I work with, I tell them that during a practice session I'll shoot next to them and *randomly *say (yell) break down. It can be on any arrow or several arrows in an end and at any part of their shot sequence (before the clicker). 

If you don't have a really annoying friend or coach to do that with you use a random environmental sound, like a phone ringing or a car going by etc. Yes, you have to let down no matter how good the shot feels. 

(Note: if the clock permits - treat the let down shot as a fired shot, with your norma; rest time before you restart.)

Another drill that I use in PRACTICE is to hold past the clicker. While we're all sorta trained to do a Pavlov's dog responce to the clicker going off, I teach people to learn to hold for a second (it 's a LONG second) after the click and then release. That exercise really does need someone watching (or using the "watch the arrow" exercise I described earlier) to ensure that there's no creep between the click and the release. Just to be clear - that's a training technique, not one to be used in a real match.

Viper1 out.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Tweaky. I suggest you mainly work on motion when using the blank bale. This means, pretend there is a target and when you set up and draw the arrow back, keep the motion moving. This movement is rather large before you get to your anchor. Once you are at your anchor the movement slows down quite substantially. However, that movement needs to be constantly moving through your clicker. This keeps your muscles contracting in a very smooth way using less energy and consistent muscle fiber, thus no herky-jerky motions or explosions at release. Then, when the clicker clicks the focus should be on the follow through. The object is to feel this action of muscle movement. More like bone movement. Try to feel the drawing shoulder blade moving. Try to feel the front shoulder keeping itself down and reaching towards the target. Try to feel the draw fingers relaxed as much as possible without letting the string slip. All of these things should be focused on (one at a time) so you can learn what the right feel is. Then, the next goal is to get blank bale feel to be the same as the aiming at a target feel. 

Viper1. Yes, those are good exercises but make sure the archer does not grow dependent on not having faith of their shot. The biggest problem an archer grows into is fear of not shooting the perfect shot. Thus, the minutest “wrong” feel gives them an excuse to let down. Being committed and believing in your shot is paramount to getting the shot off with good timing and good shot execution. This fear creeps up on all of us and it creates doubt. When you get that feeling you will be in big trouble. I believe you should not let down unless it immediately feels wrong or you have held too long. This can be due to front shoulder not feeling right, or your anchor is a bit off or your draw fingers are too tense. Let it down. But if you have drawn to anchor and it feels right at first and then all of a sudden it doesn’t that is a sign that you are having doubts and are struggling with front shoulder creep, finger creep or your aim is not “perfect” thus you do not move through the clicker as you should. When I ran into this problem, I would get extremely angry with myself and tell myself to move at all cost, even if it means missing the target I was going to commit to the shot. When I did this, my timing would come back and my scores would jump back up to their normal state. Then I would start wanting to be perfect again and then I would slow down the shot, let down a lot and end up being frustrated. Thus, it is an ongoing battle that you will have to continually wage against your mind. I have seen archers so frozen that they could not even lift their bow due to the fear, until finally the clock was near it’s end, thus a bigger fear forced them to shot the shots super fast. That fear was not getting the shot off in time before the time expired.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

Yup, there's a balancing act involved for sure. I've seen one "let down" lead to another and another and then yes, there comes a time when you have to let one go (been there, done that too). Unfortunately, (or fortunately) the KNOWING when to let down and when to push (pull) through only comes from experience - and usually a lot of it. Guess that's where part of the "feel" come in, huh .

The only possible comment I'll make (and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong), it that at your level and some of the other folks here, the game is almost ALL mental. With newer shooters, the more the physical plays a role. That's why giving them the ability to "let down" on call is so important. Later, knowing WHEN to do it has to factor in. 

BTW - 



> Then, when the clicker clicks the focus should be on the follow through.


Just thought that was worth repeating. 

Viper1 out.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

As a relative newbie, back into archery after 40+ years, I would like to add a couple of things. 

First of all, letting down is as hard to learn, *and as necessary*, as any other part of he shot process. Getting ego out of he way is paramount to shooting as best as can be. The reasons are, any/all incorrect 'feelings' at anchor - mind wobbling, uncomfortable anchor, tension where it's not supposed to be, and myriad of other things that will affect that ONE arrow. In most cases for a newbie again, like me, a bad 'feeling' means a miss no matter how hard I try to focus, because my ability to focus consistently isn't where the experts level resides. Letting down allows that one arrow to start over. If it still don;t feel right, then there is no shame in letting down again. The self absorbed shame comes from doing something you know doesn't feel right...like missing because ego got in the way. Trust me...when you hit the shot after a couple/few let downs, the other archers on the line, and those standing behind waiting to shoot, will congratulate you on learning this valuable skill, when they were unable.

Second, blank bail is useless UNLESS it's combined with specific training of ONE technique at a time, one arrow at a time, one thought at a time, or it is used to ingrain (with eyes closed) the perfected techniques - form, shot process, or most important of all, the mental aspect (inducing the fears or tensions then calming them down - breathing and thought control) of the cycle. Backyard shooting scores don't mean squat if ya can't handle the pressure, and self mental abuse, of tournaments.

In my new experience, I have dropped blank bail from my training for just flingin' arras for the thrill of getting a fletch ripping group or for anything remotely connected to aiming. I know focus on what I 'need' to achieve/feel.

Last, this is worth saying because it's what I instructed when I was 14 years old and believe in it...plus it's where the blank bail, with eyes closed, really shines. 

Bullseyes at training or practice don't mean crap!!!!! Groups show consistency and that's what is most important to improve quickly. Whether it's left, right up and down or on the next target butt, that's what consistency shows...the best grouping you can get at that time period, with your current skill level. You can always move the group around when the form, release and tuning is as consistent as possible.

How many go to the blank bail WITHOUT the bow??? How about trying to hold a 5lb weight outstretched while visualizing the shot and where it lands?

As Bruce Lee put it," Practice it until you don't think about it." Consistency is a 'feeling' if ingrained properly.

Just 2 cents from someone that hasn't won anything in 40+ years.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

Well on that note mental training is also important. Every night before I go to sleep I breath deeply to relax, like I do before I shoot. I then, in my mind, go through each and every step and everythign I have to do. I visualize each piece of it through the entire shot. I do a few shots in my mind before I drift off to sleep. Besides it relaxing me before I fall asleep, it's great mental preparation. I also do it when I have free time.


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## tweaky (Sep 15, 2008)

So, basically, to simplify things... a shot is just a shot for both the beginner and the pro. Somewhere, in between, we make much more of it than it should be.

_I often tell my ball players (pitching coach) and martial arts students as it was taught to me... (I know, too much information)_

"Practice makes habit, and good habits unwittingly achieve success. 'Focus' is a physical (re)action, taught to the body by both levels of the mind. In this way it becomes all 3 edges of a sword - what the body wants, what the conscious mind needs, then, what the subconscious mind _wills._ One cannot exist without the others and, in the end, all 3, combined, become the _simple_ truth... It *is*."

Trouble comes with the shades of gray... and that's the various "practices" one can use to achieve the _simple_ truth. The roads may vary but the destination remains the same, _until you get there._

------
One of my coaches will tell you that all of the above is pure crap (within the confines of my post)... his approach... anything beyond stripping it to its most simplistic measure is adding fuel to the melt down. KEEP IT SIMPLE!


.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Then, the next goal is to get blank bale feel to be the same as the aiming at a target feel.


Maybe I read that wrong...but for me...I've been doing the opposite. 

Since I've struggled with TP from time to time...I try to get aiming at a target to feel the same as the way I feel when executing a perfect shot at the blank bale: No preasure, no doubt, no conscious thought regarding form, feeling solid, feeling strong, feeling consistant with total confidence.

Ray


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Black Wolf. You are correct. I had them switched around. You do want to feel the same as the blank bale on the target.


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## Arrowinten (Apr 9, 2009)

Rick McKinney said:


> watching the arrow fly. That is called peeking and most people do not do a very good job of it. They normally move their head. This creates a whole slew of issues that would create a thread in itself. Yes, good archers can see their arrow fly (if they want to) but they have learned to move their eyes and not their head. However, when you watch the top archers who win Gold Medals, their eyes NEVER leave what they are aiming at. This is a very dangerous idea that I personally would not teach anyone to do unless they are 1300 shooters.


Based on my experience, I totaly agree with this. Watching the arrow while target shooting it is very disrupting on the form. Visualy checking the clicker is one thing but watching the flight is another. Shooting blank bale & watching the arrow may be a learning experience, but if the archer develops a habit of watching the arrow fly to the target it is very bad; the attention is moved away from the follow through to the flight, resulting in very poor groupings.

I also found watching the arrow to be a bad habit during the bow tuning sesions. For me it is very frustrating to see the arrow leave the bow NOT STRAIGHT. Seeing the arrow flying poorly I instinctively tend to change my release or follow through in order to get a clean launch. So, I always ask my coach to check for me if the arrows are flying Ok or not, while I focus on the shot.


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## Arrowinten (Apr 9, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> I think we've all had shots that "felt" lousey but pinwheeled the X. I agree, those are actually lousey shots. Worse are shots that "feel" great but don't land as expected. In nornal exchanges we all use the word "feel" and I don't care if a shooter thinks a shot felt good or bad, I need them to know what did or didn't work, did he feel what went wrong. (Does the shooter know he collapsed, grabbed the bow, plucked etc - and hopefully why.)
> 
> As far as the "feel" before the shot. again not too concerned witrh that. If a shot doesn't "feel" (for any reason) right before the release, it should never be taken. Being able to recognize that and break down is a necesary skill.


The feel of the shot and the impact on the targat are all the information an archer has while shooting a tournament.

So, I don't agree that "feeling" can be discarded that easily. Collapsing, grabing the bow or plucking are obvious mistakes that can be spotted by the coach and if the archer can't feel those he still has a lot to learn. But most of the times, these obvious mistakes are consequences and not causes; and 95% of the times only the archer knows that (given an experienced archer). Many times, a shot can be very bad without obvious consequences like grabing or plucking - also, only the archer knows what went wrong (again, given an experienced archer).

In this discussion the level of the archer is very important. Discarding the feel is good for learning with a begginer & medium archer; cause beeing a begginer the archer does not know how a good shot feels like. But for high performance, the feel is crucial.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Arrowinten, I would disagree that "only" the archer knows why a shot was bad. A good coach will/should know as well. A good coach knows what is going on inside an archer head when they are shooting. More often than not an archer will have an opinion as to what happened but in reality what they think happened is not the case.
One big thing holding back many archers is they think they know what is happening when they don't. They are in denial, aware of only a small picture rather than the big one. This seriously hinders their progress.


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## Arrowinten (Apr 9, 2009)

Rugby,

It is true that a good coach knows what is going on, but many times the coach isn't there. Except the cases when you have a personal coach. These are the cases I was talking about. And when you are alone, what can you rely on? That is why good performance is a combination of coach advices and self confidence.

It is also true that, many times, what the archer feels does not represent the reality. But after many years of comparing the feel with the coach's information the archer learns, and he/she analizes the feel much accurate. So, the feel of an experienced archer it is a very reliable information.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

You are correct Arrowinten. Any athlete must be able to coach themselves at the top level. 
It does depend a lot on the "experienced archer" and on how hungry they are.


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## fluca1978 (Jan 26, 2009)

This is my person experience, just for the record.

My first coach was a real fan of the blankbale approach. My training sessions always included 30-45 arrows at a blankbale, at 5 mt. distance, without the sight pin. This is a quite important point in my opinion: the sight could be mounted, in order to get the same mass and bow weight, but the pin must be removed. In this way you can really concentrate only on the shoot without having your eyes looking at the sight.
My coach divided such arrows into groups of 5-10, each group required me to focus on a specific part of the shoot: the first group on the bow hand, the second on the bow arm, and so on. At the end I have checked all the main parts of my sequence (let me say the nine shoot points). The remaining part of the training session was done with the sight and the target at the right distance. As further detail my coach was not watching me always, only the first sessions and then it was up to me to keep the shoot well.
This training sessions were easy: the feel was immediatly reminded by the blank bale, and when I started shooting the target I was already warmed up and with the right feeling. However, doing competitions was often difficult, because of the lack of such warm-up part (it always took me a lot to get the feel and to be enough smooth).

Another kind of session included a two-time-per-day session: in the first I made some strength exercises mixed with arrows against a blank bale, while in the second I shoot against a target.

Near the Christmas time I attend a national coach for a two-day training session. He gave me a lot of good advices on my form and I tried all of them with him. Once at home, since it was Christmas and there was no way to shoot indoor or outdoor, I placed a blank bale at 3 mt. and trained against that. I was feeling very well, and shoot for a couple of weeks without having anybody watching me. After this two weeks I was almost unable to shoot well and get a good score. In fact my score dropped of 40 points at 18 mt. indoor!
I guess there was a twofold problem: first I introduced some mistake in my form because it was felt right, but nobody confirmed me. Second I spent too much time without a target, and so my mind get confused once a target was placed in front of me.
Restoring the normal training sessions (blank bale and target) gave me back my score in a month.

My second coach did not believed very much in blank bale and never forced me to do. So I tried to avoid using blank bale and I must confess my score grown more. Moreover, getting into the competition was simpler than ever, since the feeling was very similar to the training one. Of course, making form changes was more difficult, or at least it was more difficult to feel! In fact, I agree with my coach that states that even when you modify your form you should not loose too many points: concentration must remain the same and you should have enough control of your body to dominate the form changes. But of course this is a more difficult way to feel.

When I encountered some score problems, I get back my blank bale but in a different way: I shoot at the competition distance without the target. That seemed easy, but I was unable to feel very well, I guess due to the presence of the pin. Moreover I experienced different feelings if I shoot the center of the blank bale or another spot (I guess it is simplet to align with the center and get rid of the pin).
My score grown again but my feelings were a little confused.
My drawing was not so smooth as it was before. I get back my drawing smoothness when I shooted a blank bale using a mirror. I placed a mirror just after the shooting line, at my right (I'm a right archer) and then observed totally myself while opening the bow. It was like my eyes were leading my arm during the right path. 

Then I had to almost quit archery for a couple of years, and the only shoot I did were against a blank bale at 5 mt but with the sight. Nevertheless I trained errors in my form, since nobody was watching me.

What can I tell from this story?
I believe that blank bale is important but with a few restrictions:
- the sight pin should be removed to concentrate only on the form
- it should not be the first thing you do on the field. Even if it is good to warm up and feel, start shooting at the competition distance, and then go down to the blank bale. This will train your capacity to be operative after 6 arrows;
- it should not be done as the last thing on the field, similar as above;
- when doing it, try to use the entire bale, not to aim (with the arm) to a spot or you will not focus entirely on your form;
- doing it at a long distance is useful only if you are not aiming in a particular point. The idea behing the blank bale is that you should not worry about aiming or about keeping arrows within a specific zone.

The above is of course related to my experience, and as stated many times in this thread, what works for me (or what I think can work for me) could not work the same for you.

From a practical point of view I also suggest to use a couple of used bales together, since they are softer than a new bale that can cause arrow injuries. If possible use also old arrows and keep the good ones for the competitions!

What about blind shooting? I believe this another important tool, and in fact instead of using a blank bale today I prefer to blind shoot. It is true: things are different when you open your eyes, and since in a competition you shoot with your eyes open, you should train yourself in the same condition. This sounds like the use of the target for the warm up or not.
However sometime you have to totally exclude one sense to get the others working. That's why I advocate blind shooting.

I never tried the watch-fly-arrow method, but I'm curious to try it as soon as possible. The important key here is that they are all tools we can use to improve ourselves, and as already stated there's no one cure, just a lot of cures for a lot of different problems and reactions!
It is clear that a champion cannot be built using only blank bale, blind shooting, watch-the-fly or even the form-master. These are just tools we MUST try, explore and adapt to ourselves.

As a final note, I don't agree very much with the target-feedback story. There are a lot of reasons why an arrow hits a specific target point, that could be not due to the archery form. So the target feedback must be considered only if the shoot is perceived as acceptable. Otherwise there is the risk that you try to correct wind, arrow spine and sight errors with your form, or worst, you loose self-confidence. Moreover I believe that shooting a blank bale with a small spot is the same as firing at 90 mt., except that you don't worry about missing the target at all. Instead of this I will try to use a bigger target instead, that allows me to aim without requiring too much concentration.

These are my opinions and little experience.
I suggest everyone (me included) to give a try to all the things stated in this great thread, and I suggest everyone to use the method they believe the more.


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