# Hunters Rights Under Attack in Pennsylvania



## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

It is archery equipment and has been so for hundreds of years.
Existed long before the 80% letoff compound.
Its time - good luck.

Steve


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

SteveB said:


> It is archery equipment and has been so for hundreds of years.
> Existed long before the 80% letoff compound.
> Its time - good luck.
> 
> Steve


That's 99% let-off now. Here's one staying at full draw with just the weight of the bow holding it there. That's under 4# holding weight.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

Im a Pa hunter and have been for 30yrs and I believe that crossbows do not belong in archery season. We all know that crossbows are a different animal all together. Increased range and hunters who treat them like a gun ( sight them in once and that is it) is my main concerns. The hunters that NEED to use a crossbow due to a disability can already use them with proper documentation. So if you want to hunt ARCHERY season in Pa Pick up a bow and do it. If not use your crossbow in the gun or muzzleloader season.


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## 6bloodychunks (Oct 26, 2005)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Im a Pa hunter and have been for 30yrs and I believe that crossbows do not belong in archery season. We all know that crossbows are a different animal all together. Increased range and hunters who treat them like a gun ( sight them in once and that is it) is my main concerns. The hunters that NEED to use a crossbow due to a disability can already use them with proper documentation. So if you want to hunt ARCHERY season in Pa Pick up a bow and do it. If not use your crossbow in the gun or muzzleloader season.


+1 im not for it either

i dont like the idea of possibly having to hide behind a tree 
in archery season too
like you have to do in rifle season because of the guys (you know em)
that shoot at anything that moves.

i wonder how many guys youll see at the box stores 
the night before archery season starts buying a crossbow if this is passed? 


now i know that the dedicated crossbow guys arent like that , 
but there are enough of the weekend warriors out there 
that would go buy one and just fling bolts all over the woods..

looks like ill have to dig out the suit of armor if this is passed


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> i dont like the idea of possibly having to hide behind a tree
> in archery season too
> like you have to do in rifle season because of the guys (you know em)
> that shoot at anything that moves


Show us the stats from states where legal (like Ohio) that shows they are less safe.

Steve


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## walleye rev (Nov 24, 2003)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Im a Pa hunter and have been for 30yrs and I believe that crossbows do not belong in archery season. We all know that crossbows are a different animal all together. Increased range and hunters who treat them like a gun ( sight them in once and that is it) is my main concerns. The hunters that NEED to use a crossbow due to a disability can already use them with proper documentation. So if you want to hunt ARCHERY season in Pa Pick up a bow and do it. If not use your crossbow in the gun or muzzleloader season.


Getting a crossbow permit in Michigan, requires much more than just proper documentation. YOU have to almost be dead to get a crossbow permit.


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## 6bloodychunks (Oct 26, 2005)

SteveB said:


> Show us the stats from states where legal (like Ohio) that shows they are less safe.
> 
> Steve




first of all, i didnt say that crossbows or crossbow hunters were less safe , 


i meant PEOPLE are less safe !! 

(i say people instead of hunter 
because i consider a hunter to be someone who is safe)


ALOT of the guys out there in rifle season are , well..........

incompetent when it comes to safety !


anybody that has ever hunted public land in PA knows what im talking about.



so i just meant if this bill is passed 
theres another reason for these "people" to go into the box stores 
the night before the season opens 
and buy a crossbow to hunt with the next morning,
and shoot at anything that moves or any sound in the woods.


ill need a big tree to hide behind


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

My point is that Pa has a HORRIBLE Archery season as it is, we share most of it 80% with small game hunters, turkey hunters, and a special youth and muzzle loader season. Lets keep the crossbows where they belong, which is with the guns. Let the ARCHERS have our 6 weeks (4 of which is already shared) without any more gun hunters. Cross bows are not archery and should not be included in the Archery season.


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## LoCountryHunter (Jul 24, 2006)

This will be the first year that crossbows will be legal during Bow season in South Carolina and even though I don't shoot one for deer that will be great. (I do use a crossbow for gator hunting though: )You would be surprised how many new people this will introduce into the archery arena and we need more and more to join the hunting world whether it be gun or bow but as usual you have a## holes that would rather join the antis and fight anything new that they don't use. A crossbow is a bow no matter how it fits your mouth to say it so this is one southern bow hunter that wishes your state luck with bringing the crossbow into play in your state. :darkbeer:


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

How would you feel if there was a movement to ban all compound bow for archery season? Longbows and recurves only. After all, think about all the technological advances a compound has over a traditional bow:

- 65-80% let off
- fiber optic sights
- stabilizers
- parallel limb configuration
- arrow speeds twice that of longbows and recurves
- mechanical releases

I'm sure all the same gripes/allegations that appear above regarding crossbows were thrown around when the compound bow hit the market. 

The bottom line is just because a hunter carries a crossbow is no guarantee of success. The deer are not just going to give themselves up because a hunter is a carrying a Ten-Point Elite. 

I like how the generalizations are made that only lazy hunters and ones looking for shortcuts will use crossbows. _They'll buy it the day before the season starts. They'll shoot at anything that moves, man or beast. They'll try shots at unheard of ranges. _Do you truly believe there aren't archery and gun hunters out there doing the same thing? The weapon use has nothing to do with it. It's up to the hunter to use the weapon in a safe manner and within its limitations. 

Sure having an archery season that doesn't overlap with any other season would be ideal but that's not the case and it hasn't been that way (at least here in PA) for a long time. What is important is getting hunters out in the fields and giving kids the opportunities to hunt and be successful. The future of hunting is dependent on our kids participating and making archery season the only open season for 6 weeks is not the way to make that happen.

These arguments come up every year and reek of elitism. Just like fly-fisherman who want a particular strecth of a river or stream restricted to their style of fishing only.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

Crossbows are just as accurate and have the same if not further range than a flintlock. So that is where they belong, gun or muzzleloader season. And as far as getting more hunter s into the woods, with crossbows, well Pennsylvania has enough hunters. About a million each yr most of which (80%) hunt buck season. That is way to many for me if you added crossbows to the list of weapons to archery season there will be about a million instead of 300000 archers. Crossbows are like muzzleloaders, sight them in and then forget about them until opening day. Archery hunters have to practice on a regular basis and get the deer withing 30 yards for the majority of hunters. So if you want to shoot a crossbow and hunt with one thats fine, that is your right. Just keep them with the guns and muzzleloaders. Pa has flintlock season, crossbows are just as accurate and about the same ACCURATE range. Or cross the border where there are less than half the hunters in Ohio and hunt with your crossbow. I hunt there as well but the numbers of hunters over all is 35 percent or so. So you dont notice the crossbows. Add it to Pa and it will be a nightmare for the archers.


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Crossbows are just as accurate and have the same if not further range than a flintlock. So that is where they belong, gun or muzzleloader season. And as far as getting more hunter s into the woods, with crossbows, well Pennsylvania has enough hunters. About a million each yr most of which (80%) hunt buck season. That is way to many for me if you added crossbows to the list of weapons to archery season there will be about a million instead of 300000 archers. Crossbows are like muzzleloaders, sight them in and then forget about them until opening day. Archery hunters have to practice on a regular basis and get the deer withing 30 yards for the majority of hunters. So if you want to shoot a crossbow and hunt with one thats fine, that is your right. Just keep them with the guns and muzzleloaders. Pa has flintlock season, crossbows are just as accurate and about the same ACCURATE range. Or cross the border where there are less than half the hunters in Ohio and hunt with your crossbow. I hunt there as well but the numbers of hunters over all is 35 percent or so. So you dont notice the crossbows. Add it to Pa and it will be a nightmare for the archers.


They have the same range as a compound. They like all bows are limited in range by string jump and the possibility of the deer moving before the arrow gets there. Your comments show you obviously have zero experience with an xbow. Just more uneducated drivel.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

let me get this right. Because im Ignorant on crossbows, I guess. A crossbow holding 200!!!!!!! pounds with a 400 grain BOLT (not arrow mind You) has the same range as a compound bow at 65lb with the same 400 grain arrow. Wow, I was confused. Once again Im corrected. Thanks Czak I appreciate you getting me straight on those facts. Weight and force apply differently for crossbows. Thanks


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

And I know all about the shorter power stroke on a crossbow. I dont have anything against them , just not in archery season. If you want to hunt Archery season pick up a bow and Do it. You need MUCH more practice and disaplin to shoot a bow accurate than you ever will a crossbow. Just not the same. Leave it in gun season. Or in a state where they need all the hunter they can get. The elderly and disable are the only ones in Pa that should be aloud. Thats is the popular theory and it is that way for a reason.


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

Well why doesn't everyone pick up a traditional bow and put the compound down? All you said applies to the compound as well.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Maybe the elderly and disabled should be the only ones allowed to use a compound bow during archery season, you know with the 80% let-off and the unfair advantage it provides. Then all able bodied hunters would have to hunt with longbows or recurves only during archery season. And if they want to use their compounds which are mutated forms of traditional bows, they can use them during the firearms season. 

You talk about crossbows holding 200 lbs or more. I just took a look at the speed ratings for them on Cabelas.com. Nearly every one of them are right in the same range as today's top-end speed bows which is 340-350 fps with one or two crossbows exceeding that speed and some in the low 300s. Where does the exceptionally long shooting range come from if the speeds are identical?

Some hunters are disciplined shooters who practice enough to be accurate out to 70 yards or more with a compound. Using your argument in regard to effective range, shouldn't this require them to use their compounds during firearms season only?


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

Most hunting set ups with a compound shoot in the 250's 260's so I would say a 100fps differance is quite substancial. But if you think other wise keep telling yourself whatever you want.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Most hunting set ups with a compound shoot in the 250's 260's so I would say a 100fps differance is quite substancial. But if you think other wise keep telling yourself whatever you want.



Traditional bows shoot 100 fps slower than most compound bow hunting setups, and way less than some of the high-speed compounds. Using your logic, shouldn't compound bows be restricted to firearms season too because of the obvious speed advantage which seems to be the whole crux of your opposition to crossbows?


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

The discussion about traditional vs compound was already had, and compounds won. The VAST majority decided that it was fair and ethical and belong in archery season. The Vast majority think crossbows dont belong in archery season so they are not in archery season. Democracy at work.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Check the PA Hunting Regs Archeryxpert. Last time I looked, crossbows are legal in PA. The discussion you refer to was therefore nothing more than that, a discussion of opinions with no bearing on the PA hunting laws. 

You can kick and scream about crossbows all you want but they are here and legal. I don't use or own one and have no plans to. But I begrudge nobody the right to if they are considered legal for use as they are in PA.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

Crossbows are NOT legal in Pa unless you are in Gun season and/or disabled. So check your facts before you talk. I live and hunt in Pa trust me I know. The majority, Democracy, thats the way it works here Nicko. You seem to have a problem with the American way. Hmmm,


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

You're making this too easy for me. Go to the PA Game Commission website and click the link for *Deer Season and Bag Limits*. Go down to the listing for *Archery: Antlered and Antlerless Statewide. *
*Oct. 4 - Nov. 15 and Dec. 26 - Jan. 10, 2009*
_Crossbows may be used in WMUs 2B, 5C, and 5D but users must have an archery stamp_. This is straight from the PA Game Commission website. By the way Archeryxpert, I live and hunt in PA too, and I hunt primarily in 5C. Should I still trust you? 

I have no problem with the American way. You however seem to have a problem with the laws as you don't know them as well as you think.

By the way, the title of this thread is misleading. How does allowing the use of crossbows put a hunters rights under fire. If anything, the allowance of crossbows provides more options.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

You got me! Special regulation areas around Pittsburgh and Philadelphia you can use a crossbow. You got me good there Nicko, thanks for getting me straight, once again. .

Archery Seasons: Long, recurve and compound bows using arrows tipped with broadheads having an outside diameter of at least 7/8-inch with no less than two cutting edges, which shall be in the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface. Persons hunting deer in archery seasons may not possess a firearm of any type.

The above is the def. of Archery season out of the Pa regulations. So like I stipulated earlier please educate yourself before You speak Niko.


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## walleye rev (Nov 24, 2003)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> The discussion about traditional vs compound was already had, and compounds won. The VAST majority decided that it was fair and ethical and belong in archery season. The Vast majority think crossbows dont belong in archery season so they are not in archery season. Democracy at work.


Obviously Sir you were not there when the "Vast majority" decided about the "fair and ethical" use of the compound bow. You were not one of those who were asked to leave bow ranges and clubs, because we chose to shoot Mr. Allens new block and tackle designed "compound bow". (which by today's standards, would be called cruel and unusual, to say the least). You were not one of the Pioneers who were laughed at, and virtually ostresized by our fellow "Traditional" bow hunters, who said that those contraptions will totally ruin bow hunting as we know it.

It took many years of being humiliated, and being made fun of before the "Vast majority" decided that the compound bow, was "fair and ethical" to use for bowhunting. I know this for a fact Sir, because I was there, I was one of those pioneers who helped break the barriers of those prejudices. I was asked to leave many different "Hunting clubs" because of my choice of weapon. Me the same person who they loved when I shot my "traditional" stick and string bow along side of them, just a few months before. The same person they loved when we went bowhunting together. Me the same person who helped make "YOUR" choice of weapon, "Fair and ethical".

I believe it is our right to chose what ever weapon we decide to use in "HUNTING". Whether it is a shotgun, rifle, muzzleloader, flintlock, stick bow, compound, or even your much hated Crossbow. It is time for "ALL HUNTERS". to stand up for each other, and to take a real stand for hunting. If we keep dividing our own hunting ranks, the anti's won't have to do anything, except watch us destroy our sport from the inside.

Rev.............


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> You got me! Special regulation areas around Pittsburgh and Philadelphia you can use a crossbow. You got me good there Nicko, thanks for getting me straight, once again. .
> 
> Archery Seasons: Long, recurve and compound bows using arrows tipped with broadheads having an outside diameter of at least 7/8-inch with no less than two cutting edges, which shall be in the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface. Persons hunting deer in archery seasons may not possess a firearm of any type.
> 
> The above is the def. of Archery season out of the Pa regulations. So like I stipulated earlier please educate yourself before You speak Niko.


The excerpt your referenced is a general description of acceptable weapons for use during archery season across the entire state. The excerpt I referenced (not made up, actually referenced from the 2008-2009 Hunting Regs) amends the list of accepted weapons for use during archery season in WMUs 2B, 5C, and 5D and it includes crossbows. Let me repeat myself "Xpert", *IT INCLUDES CROSSBOWS. *

Maybe you should call the game commission and tell them you've unearthed a fatal flaw in their hunting regulations and that crossbows are actually not legal for use anywhere in the state. After they get done laughing at you, they may recommend you turn your hunting license in as you obviously can't understand what is printed in black and white.

And once again, I ask about the title of this thread. How does allowing the use of crossbows put a hunters rights under fire?


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

Special Regulations Areas: (all of Allegheny, Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Philadelphia counties) Muzzleloading long guns, bow and arrow, manual or auto-loading shotguns, 20 gauge or larger, slugs or buckshot only; crossbows and .410 shotguns with slugs. Buckshot may not be used in Allegheny County. Only crossbows, bows and arrows are permitted in Philadelphia County. Crossbows may be used in the two-week statewide concurrent antlered and antlerless deer season

copy and pasted from the regs.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

DEER, ARCHERY (Antlered and Antlerless) Statewide, including WMUs 2B, 5C and 5D: Oct. 4-Nov. 15 and Dec. 26-Jan. 10. One antlered deer per hunting license year. One antlerless deer with each required antlerless license

This is the part of the regs you told me to refer to, I see nothing about crossbows. My statements of the rules have been copied and pasted, not made up.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

So like I said special regulation areas. Which doent make it legal which is what I said, because it is not.


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

I believe it is our right to chose what ever weapon we decide to use in "HUNTING". Whether it is a shotgun, rifle, muzzleloader, flintlock, stick bow, compound, or even your much hated Crossbow. It is time for "ALL HUNTERS". to stand up for each other, and to take a real stand for hunting. If we keep dividing our own hunting ranks, the anti's won't have to do anything, except watch us destroy our sport from the inside.

Rev.............[/QUOTE]

So Rev a Nuclear weapon would be fine then? How bout a fully auto machine gun or perphaps some tomahawk missle perphaps. Lmao thanks Rev I loved that quote. Our right to use whatever weapon we decide to . Nice


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## walleye rev (Nov 24, 2003)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> I believe it is our right to chose what ever weapon we decide to use in "HUNTING". Whether it is a shotgun, rifle, muzzleloader, flintlock, stick bow, compound, or even your much hated Crossbow. It is time for "ALL HUNTERS". to stand up for each other, and to take a real stand for hunting. If we keep dividing our own hunting ranks, the anti's won't have to do anything, except watch us destroy our sport from the inside.
> 
> Rev.............


So Rev a Nuclear weapon would be fine then? How bout a fully auto machine gun or perphaps some tomahawk missle perphaps. Lmao thanks Rev I loved that quote. Our right to use whatever weapon we decide to . Nice[/QUOTE]

Once again Sir, YOU have totally missed the meaning of the Quote. I guess I should be banned from hunting because I missed putting one word in my sentence. it should have read, Our rights to use what-ever "Legal weapon" we choose to use.

Glad I could be the source of your laughter.........

Rev.


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

> let me get this right. Because im Ignorant on crossbows, I guess. A crossbow holding 200!!!!!!! pounds with a 400 grain BOLT (not arrow mind You) has the same range as a compound bow at 65lb with the same 400 grain arrow. Wow, *I was confused.*


Not sure confused is the correct word. :sad:

My compound shoots 300 fps in a hunting setup. Longest deer was 40 yds. Xbow 350 fps in a hunting setup. Longest deer 30 yds. Where's the advantage? 

That's why xbow success rates are so much higher than compounds! Oh wait they're the same. More garbage form the uneducated. If they shoot like a gun then success rates would match a ML or firearm. For deer they're still a 30-40 yard weapon. They match compounds. Do they have the capability to kill at longer yardages? Sure just as compounds do. Do ethical hunters take shots at yardages the chance of a wound is much higher? No. Too much can happen in 40 or 50 yds with any arrow for most hunters. 

Nice try but come back when you get some facts. Whenever that might be.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Since you seem to be having trouble finding the specific verbiage on your own "xpert", I have gone to the trouble of taking a picture of the specific page in the 2008-2009 PA Hunting Regulations that allows the use of crossbows in WMUs 2B, 5C, and 5D during the archery seasons. It appears on page #50. Open your book and read it for yourself if you think I photo-shopped this pic.

I'm sure you'll be issuing a full retraction of your self-appointed expert status upon seeing for yourself you have been wrong about this and wasted both of our collective times. But since you have been so wrong about so many things in this thread, I felt obligated as an educated PA hunter to help you become better educated as well. Feel free to thank me.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Hmmmmm. It's gotten pretty quiet here.


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## marbowNC (Apr 28, 2008)

for the guy that thinks we should be able to hunt with what we want , WE DO they call it BOW SEASON , MUZZLELOADING SEASON , GUN SEASON , as far as I know all states have it , Its not fair for a man or woman to have there bow season took away because some a hole is to sorry or lazy to shoot a bow , So just grow up and deal with it and quit crying , I hunt with all three weapons and enjoy all of them but nothing compares to hunting with a bow . and for the Xbow only the disabled should be aloud to hunt with them , there is no reason for a healthy strong person not to beable to shoot a compound or long bow . Im thankful only the disabled is only aloud to use a Xbow in NC.


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

marbowNC said:


> for the guy that thinks we should be able to hunt with what we want , WE DO they call it BOW SEASON , MUZZLELOADING SEASON , GUN SEASON , as far as I know all states have it , Its not fair for a man or woman to have there bow season took away because some a hole is to sorry or lazy to shoot a bow , So just grow up and deal with it and quit crying , I hunt with all three weapons and enjoy all of them but nothing compares to hunting with a bow . and for the Xbow only the disabled should be aloud to hunt with them , there is no reason for a healthy strong person not to beable to shoot a compound or long bow . Im thankful only the disabled is only aloud to use a Xbow in NC.


What state did they "took away" bow season because xbows were allowed? 

Seems to be a real boat load of stupid talk on here about things that haven't happened and aren't accurate.


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## marbowNC (Apr 28, 2008)

Here in NC they have the wildlife commision has talked about a open season hunt with what ever ya want and its all because of the a holes out there thats to sorry to use a bow ...so does that answer ya question ?


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

So when you say they took away bow season, did they abolish the use of compounds and traditional bows and limit archery hunters to using crossbows only?


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## walleye rev (Nov 24, 2003)

Funny how when you deal in FACTs, these post get real quiet............


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