# Motion=accuracy



## [email protected]

I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation. How would you interpret his words? What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


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## Alpha Burnt

Float? Rock solid still is not going to happen, motion and subconscious firing would be more accurate. I would think this is what was meant.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


"dynamic shot"

Two styles.

PASSIVE style
ACTIVE or AGGRESSIVE or DYNAMIC Style.

PUSH style
or
PUSH-PULL style.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


"dynamic shot"

Look at a video clip of your favorite shooter.

Where is the followthrough?

Is the follow through only, mostly on the RELEASE SIDE half of the body?


Are there TWO follow through reactions?

Release SIDE follow through reaction
AND
Bow arm/bow hand SIDE follow through reaction?

Then,
you have IN-LINE follow through reaction, on the bow arm/bow hand side.

Then,
you have the "EXPLOSIVE" follow through reaction, on the bow arm/bow hand side.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation. How would you interpret his words? What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


Not sure which seminar you are referring to.
Maybe a panel discussion at the Vegas Shoot?
Any HINT which well respected pro you are referring to?


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## [email protected]

Sure, Levi was explaining release activation during a Scott seminar at the 2014 ATA show.
Thanks for responding.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> Sure, Levi was explaining release activation during a Scott seminar at the 2014 ATA show.
> Thanks for responding.


Here is a panel of folks at Vegas.

TruBall/AXCEL 2014 Vegas Seminar.

GRIV talks about how he uses a HINGE release with click.
39:50 minutes to 42:23 minutes. EXCELLENT description.

Then, Reo Wilde talks about how he uses a HINGE release, with click.
42:23 minutes to 43:03 minutes.

Then, Jesse Broadwater talks about how he uses a HINGE release, with click.
43:03 minutes to 46:07 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-Ww--E5Ci0

The ECHO in the room is rEALLY bad, but if you listen carefully,
you may pick up a hint or two, that may work for you, makes sense to you.

MY method of release for a HINGE
is very close to how GRIV describes how it works for him.

GRIV has his release set, so that the CLICK goes off,
at the instant that he hits anchor,
and
GRIV talks about holding several pounds of PULLING pressure HARDER than holding weight
and maintaining that EXTRA pulling pressure ALWAYS.

GRIV likes to FLATTEN his release hand, the back of the hand,
and that causes an automatic rotation of the HINGE release handle
cuz the 4th and pinky fingers SHRINK/GROW FASTER...than the middle finger
as you RELAX, FLATTEN The back of the hand.

I don't do this part, but you get the idea.

GRIV explains things quite well, for his method.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> Sure, Levi was explaining release activation during a Scott seminar at the 2014 ATA show.
> Thanks for responding.



I stumbled onto a video clip of Braden Gellenthien shooting a hinge,
and I did a detailed FREEZE frame analysis. Appears that Braden Gellenthien sets his release SUPER STONE COLD.



Looks like the TOP, the pinky end of the release handle
moves through 3/4-inches of rotation from the moment he anchors
to the instant the release fires.

HANDLE starts angled FORWARDS slightly...5.1 degrees FORWARDS, towards the target.
HANDLE rotates to 12-o'clock high...dead straight up and down.
HANDLE rotates to 11.2 degrees BACKWARDS, away from the target.

That is a LOT of movement for a hinge handle.

I call it STONE COLD.

WHY so much handle rotation for a HINGE?

Well,
cuz this FORCES an aggressive shot.

What does THAT mean?

You MUST be AGGRESSIVE,
you MUST get a GOOD stretch ACROSS the chest,
you MUST be SOLID in the bow arm...not necessarily PUSHING the bow arm, just a SOLID bow arm, like a 2x4 be STRONG through the bow arm and chest

you can be a PULL only shooter and still be AGGRESSIVE, STRONG on the bow arm side.

Then,
on the RELEASE side of your body,
the middle back muscles (the same ones you use to row a boat)
does the PULLING 2-3 lbs HARDER than holding weight...

then, you decide to take the shot
so you increase the PULLING to 4-5 lbs HARDER than holding weight

then, you increase the PULLING to 6-7 lbs HARDER than holding weight...

I teach folks do all the PULLING with ONLY YOUR MIDDLE FINGER.

The HINGE release is a two sided SEE-SAW.

You have the THUMB peg side,
for the thumb,
for the pointer finger.

THIS is SIDE ONE.

Then,
you have the OTHER SIDE of the HINGE release.
YOu have the finger groove for your middle finger.
You MIGHT have the finger groove for the 4th finger (three finger HINGE).
You MIGHT have the finger groove for the pinky finger (four finger HINGE).

When you decide to take the shot,
you PULL with the MIDDLE FINGER and all the OTHER FINGERS, on SIDE #2 of the handle.

The SEE SAW, SIDE #2 of the SEE SAW must rotate and hit the ground.

So, you GOTTA pull ONLY on the SIDE #2 of the see saw.


So,
for GRIV....he does the FLATTEN or YIELD, as he likes to call it...the back of the hand.
YIELD the back of the hand...RELAX back of the hand...FLATTEN back of the hand. CUZ the length of your fingers are different, the HINGE handle rotates.
ALL you gotta do is to MAINTAIN that 2-3 lbs of PULLING pressure HIGHER than your holding weight.

That's how GRIV teaches/explains the process.

I say,
we have a SEE SAW,
and you gotta PULL HARDER and HARDER
ONLY on SIDE #2 of the see saw...(middle finger side of the HINGE HANDLE).


Soooo,
some folks say I PULL and PULL and PULL and PULL and nothing happens
or the HINGE fires, but it takes 20 MINUTE to fire.

Then,
I say,
that's cuz your POINTER finger was SCARED to death.

WHAT?

I say that for the HINGE to work,
for the SEE SAW to rotate...

the POINTER finger MUST go on vacation...
you just GOTTA FEEL the POINTER FINGER ALLOW SIDE #1 of the see saw to RISE UP closer to the RISER...

so that SIDE #2 of the See Saw, can FALL AWAY from the riser...so that SIDE #2 of the see saw can MOVE AWAY from the riser,
so that your MIDDLE FINGER does ALL THE PULLING...

2 lbs HARDER than holding weight
3 lbs HARDER than holding weight 
4 lbs HARDER than holding weight 
5 lbs HARDER than holding weight 
6 lbs HARDER than holding weight
7 lbs HARDER than holding weight .

*When your POINTER finger learns to TRUST your middle finger
and
when your POINTER finger allows the middle finger to do ALL THE PULLING...

the HINGE becomes DEAD SIMPLE to operate.*

So hocus pocus.
No need to learn all the latin names for the muscles in your back...

rhomboid major
rhomboid minor
levator scapulae
trapezius upper
trapezius middle
trapezius lower
latissimus

IF you set the HINGE release STONE cold
so that the hinge has to rotate nearly 3/4-inch...

this FORCES you to really STRETCH across the chest
this FORCES you to REALLY relax your release side forearm muscles
to get seriously IN LINE behind the arrow

and this FORCES you to TEACH your POINTER finger to relax,
cuz...

if you PULL on BOTH sides of the HINGE HANDLE,
the HINGE handle does NOT rotate...NOT even CLOSE

and you TURN blue from running out of air
and the HINGE does not fire.

When you DO train your POINTER finger to FULLY TRUST your middle finger to do all the work..
and you PULL ONLY with the middle finger
and you allow the HINGE HANDLE to MOVE.....nearly 3/4-inches of TRAVEL...

the SURPRISE release,
the FIRST TIME This works for you,
is simply AMAZING.




So,
there is NOTHING magic about 3/4-inches of travel.

You basically set your release SOOOO STONE cold
that the release will PLAIN just NOT FIRE. PERIOD.

Then,
you make your release just a TINY TINY BIT HOTTER.

The handle is ROTATING what feels like a HUGE, a CRAZY MASSIVE amount,
and the release still will not fire.

So,
you make your HINGE a TINY TINY TINY bit hotter.

FEELS like your POINTER finger is going through a HUGE forwards movement,
your POINTER finger has to be TRULY TRUSTING and RELAXED.

Finally,
your hinge FIRES seemingly all by itself,
when you REALLY RELAX the right forearm (right handed shooter)
you were REALLY STRETCHED out and IN LINE behind the arrow
you FEEL REALLY narrow, standing TALL and AGGRESSIVE in the shot...

some folks describe the FEELING,
as FEELING INSIDE THE ARROW.

ONE style.
ONE method of shooting a hinge.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> Sure, Levi was explaining release activation during a Scott seminar at the 2014 ATA show.
> Thanks for responding.


Don't think I have ever heard Levi explain how he uses a hinge.

Seems like Braden Gellenthien has a LOT of movement
in his release activation technique...for a Hinge.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation. How would you interpret his words? What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


When I have my HT3 set STONE cold,
for a LOT of movement...

the setting looks like this.



It LOOKS like a middling setting,
but,
trust me...

it takes a LOT of travel, a LOT of hinge handle rotation for it to fire,
and this keeps me honest,
meaning good solid bow arm
meaning stand tall and narrow (no slouching)
meaning aggressive release elbow/arm/back...PULL steadily harder and harder into the wall of the bow
and
MOST important of all,
must RELAX the forearm muscles,
must FLATTEN The back of the hand (like GRIV explains...I just think of it DIFFERENTLY)
must use the back muscles for ROWING a boat

MUST absolutely MUST allow the POINTER finger to move towards the riser (relax)
MUST pull ONLY with the middle finger
and POW.

The thing just fires by itself...mostly...kinda sorta.

Soo,
an AGGRESSIVE shot,
*means that ALL THIS writing takes place inside of 3 SECONDS,*
after I hit anchor.

If you BABY the shot,
if you are THINKING through the shot,
this is when I see my students take WAY WAY too long, to get the shot to work.

I train my students to SHUT DOWN the brain,
and we work on DRILLS to turn off the brain.


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## nuts&bolts

[email protected] said:


> I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation. How would you interpret his words? What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


So,
short version...

listen and learn from as many as you can.

Then,
get a practice loop of paracord, that SIMULATES your bow draw length.

Put on a d-loop if you like.

Try the different STYLES of making a hinge work,
try the different STYLES of making a thumb button work.

LIKE GRIV says,
the HINGE method, will also work with a THUMB button. No need to SQUEEZE consciously a THUMB button.
Just hang on, and you can do the GRIV YIELD/FLATTEN the back of the hand
while PULLING 3 lbs HARDER than holding weight,
and the FLATTEN back of hand/YIELD technique, can and WILL make a thumb button release FIRE.

TRY the PUSH-PULL shot.

TRY the PULL only shot.

Stay "STRONG" through the shot,
whatever system you choose to TRY.

*Michael Braden talks about being STRONG/AGGRESSIVE in the shot.
"we want to be strong, we want to be aggressive, and use the LEAST amount of muscles"...in a nice STRAIGHT bow arm.*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNenHKKSKZI


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## nuts&bolts

See this video clip about ALIGNMENT,
using a practice cord.

GET your ELBOW in LINE with the practice cord (a pretend arrow).

This is HUGELY important.
This is why I harp on getting your draw length PERFECT
even adjusting your DRAW LENGTH, that's right...DRAW LENGTH
a perfect fit, by even adjusting DRAW LENGTH down to the 1/4-inch,
down to the 1/16th inch, IN BETWEEN DL module sizes
IN BETWEEN Fixed cam DL sizes...

to do EXACTLY what Michael Braden is discussing in this video clip.

You cannot be STRONG in the shot,
if you are NOT in the alignment
that Michael Braden is talking about, in this OLD video clip...from 2009.

*The RULES of archery do not change.*

Only what is popular in archery,
only who is popular in archery.

PERFECT alignment...
comes from PERFECT draw length.

How tight of a group, fletched arrow group is GOOD enough for you?

YOu can get OK alignment, with 1/2-inch DL modules, with 1/2-inch FIXED DL cams.

Wanna win a little more often?
How about we dial in your ALIGNMENT to the 1/4-inch, and make your groups just a little bit tighter.

GREAT video clip by Michael Braden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYjKXNqakKI


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## [email protected]

Not sure how this will turn out but, I took some still shots from coaches eye to give you an idea of my shot. 
Thank you for taking the time and sharing so much information.


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## Lazarus

[email protected] said:


> I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation.


I believe what this Pro was doing/saying (in a nice way) was this; he was dispelling the WIDELY circulated notion that you can somehow activate a release without movement. In the case of a hinge, rotation.

My opinion, believe it to be correct.


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## Padgett

Wow, I hadn't seen nuts and bolts go through his method of shooting a hinge in a while. To me for shooters who are just beginning and have no coaches standing there with them this kind of shooting is virtually impossible to comprehend and get off to a good start, especially when they are coming off being a control shooter who was probably punching the release. This style gives a person the sense that they can mentally over power the hinge and rip the cams off their bow by increasing the pull into the wall which is very close to the control that they had over punching a trigger to begin with.

I love this stuff, I watch pro shooters every time I get a chance and sure there is a slight amount of difference in rotation of the hinges in thier hands from shooter to shooter but when you watch them shoot most all of them look very relaxed and there is very subtle amount of percieved effort that a person can see. The only pro shooter that I have seen in the last year who gave off the perception of ripping the cams off the bow was Micheal Braden, he just looked like he was really working hard to fire the bow. The rest of the pro shooters are just standing there in a good relaxed position and shooting.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, there has to be some motion to fire a hinge. Like Padgett, most I see seem so dang relaxed it just slays me. And then one who has "explosive" build up seems so wrong with us and yet, like Braden, they aren't slouches come putting the arrow where it belongs.


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## Iowa shooter

I shot on a practice bale with Levi one day at Vegas. I stood about five feet away and watched his release hand. There is very little detectable motion of the release. He wasn't using a click either.


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## EPLC

Here's a great video from 2010 of a shoot off between Braden and Jesse. I've watched it many, many times. You can really see the release of each quite well. It's incredible how steady Jesse is on every shot. It's no wonder he hardly ever misses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnoUNfUQ-s&feature=player_embedded


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## Joe Schnur

Braden says straight arm but when you lower the front shoulder to lock you end up with what is in the pic slight bend same thing on messy they talk all about a straight bow arm but few actually do it


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## dua lam pa

nuts&bolts said:


> Don't think I have ever heard Levi explain how he uses a hinge.
> 
> Seems like Braden Gellenthien has a LOT of movement
> in his release activation technique...for a Hinge.


Motion -very clear to see it in BGs shot - when he is firing on all 8 you can see how there is never a still moment in in shot , always moving towards the X - at Full Draw he manipulates " rocks " his release to the edge "manually" , then the motion transfers to ripping the bow apart - great archer to watch shoot , aggressive is an understatement - and talk about trusting the shot


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## nuts&bolts

dua lam pa said:


> Motion -very clear to see it in BGs shot - when he is firing on all 8 you can see how there is never a still moment in in shot , always moving towards the X - at Full Draw he manipulates " rocks " his release to the edge "manually" , then the motion transfers to ripping the bow apart - great archer to watch shoot , aggressive is an understatement - and talk about trusting the shot


Definitely one style of shooting.
I have applied his principles, to my own style,
the MASSIVE movement in the hinge, SUPER stone cold setting on my HT3
the "aggressive" shot and works just great.


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## jelmore

Was watching name the game last night and in his tech segment he talked about his view of releases. He compared the trigger releases to jumping off a cliff i.e it was all or nothing when you trigger them. Then he compared a hinge release to a gradual slope saying that you put your pin in the middle and as you pulled there was movement then the shot breaks. He seemed to be showing the motion that nuts and bolts is talking about when he was using his hinge on a practice rope.


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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation. How would you interpret his words? What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


Craig, I would interpret it as a constant backwards pulling with an offset "push" inline towards the spot! Consistency, proper release activation depends on a "dynamic shot" IMO.. and for me when I do it correctly makes the pin lay steady..

For me dynamic shot is pulling/pushing offset until completion..

and static is just barely sitting there with the holding weight and no movement after except for the button,trigger finger.... 

Randy Ulmer I believe once described a perfect shot as a complex gymnastic routine!

How is your shoulder healing?


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## dua lam pa

[email protected] said:


> I heard a well respected pro say that motion equals accuracy. This was during a release seminar and was in reference to shot process and release activation. How would you interpret his words? What does a dynamic shot mean to you?


 Possible to know who this person is , would like to see their shot out of curiosity.


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## [email protected]

It was Levi.


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## Praeger

*Ripping the Bow Apart*



dua lam pa said:


> Motion -very clear to see it in BGs shot - when he is firing on all 8 you can see how there is never a still moment in in shot , always moving towards the X - at Full Draw he manipulates " rocks " his release to the edge "manually" , then the motion transfers to ripping the bow apart - great archer to watch shoot , aggressive is an understatement - and talk about trusting the shot


Gellenthien does have visible rotation in his release but unless he's said he's using his hand to rotate the release, he could just as well be using back tension and simply has the release set cold. As to "ripping the bow apart", he does nothing like that. When the release fires his release hand goes back and his bow arm forward. Other than shot where he is pushing a bad shot, he doesn't look to move much more than most. Some do it more, some less. If you watch Levi Morgan shoot, he appears to push more on the front end based on his front end follow through - his bow arm swings to the left. 

My point is it is difficult to say based solely on watching whether an archer is using an aggressive style or simply more relaxed on the follow through, allowing back and front ends to move more after the shot. Judging from cam position (when it can be seen in video) no one is pulling much past the stops.

As an aside, at the Wroclaw Archery World Cup 2014 Compound Mens Team Bronze, Gellenthien injured his right hand the day prior and used a borrowed index/strip trigger release. Not a lot of drama on front or back end after the shot. (Except when he shanks a shot into the 8 ring.)


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## Padgett

The more I shoot I believe that this dynamic shot thing is very important, in the beginning I remember standing there just waiting for something to happen. I have even shot a 60x round a couple years ago back when I was doing this, now I have a much more so called "dynamic shot". I am not a rip the cams off of the bow guy but I have a very well defined shot over all and a very well defined firing engine that runs and I can feel the back tension and and the firing engine running through out the shot while my pin is floating.

Having a well defined shot from start to finish that has became second nature from tens of thousands of shots is what allows you to become more dynamic and use it to your advantage instead of just standing there waiting for it to happen. So yes I can see that motion is accuracy.


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## Jaliv92

Tagged 4 later


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## dua lam pa

Praeger said:


> Gellenthien does have visible rotation in his release but unless he's said he's using his hand to rotate the release, he could just as well be using back tension and simply has the release set cold. As to "ripping the bow apart", he does nothing like that. When the release fires his release hand goes back and his bow arm forward. Other than shot where he is pushing a bad shot, he doesn't look to move much more than most. Some do it more, some less. If you watch Levi Morgan shoot, he appears to push more on the front end based on his front end follow through - his bow arm swings to the left.
> 
> My point is it is difficult to say based solely on watching whether an archer is using an aggressive style or simply more relaxed on the follow through, allowing back and front ends to move more after the shot. Judging from cam position (when it can be seen in video) no one is pulling much past the stops.


 




7:20 very clear as to how he rolls into is release -
he is Wunderloos prodigey " rip the bow apart is his motto " 
Gellenthien and Van Natta are probally the two most aggressive shooters going 






^^^ There is a lot that can be learned watching this lady shoot ^^^


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## Padgett

Good videos, I personally watch these and soak in the shooting form of jesse and Braden on a regular basis and this is where I have learned much of what I know and do in my own shooting. So many times I hear poor comments about pro shooters and their form and not to put to much stock in what it looks like but to me using everything that jesse and Braden are doing from stance to grip to front arm and anchor and grip on the release to a slightly open stance to everything they freaking do is a must.

When I watch jesse I just see something special, there is just something about him that sets him apart from most other pro shooters. That doesn't mean that he wins every time but there is something about the way he carries himself and especially when he is on the shooting line that just sets him apart to me. Sergio Pagni has a similar effect when he is on the shooting line, it is a relaxed but focused look and they both just make it look effortless.


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## Praeger

> Motion -very clear to see it in BGs shot - when he is firing on all 8 you can see how there is never a still moment in in shot , always moving towards the X - at Full Draw he manipulates " rocks " his release to the edge "manually" , then the motion transfers to ripping the bow apart - great archer to watch shoot , aggressive is an understatement - and talk about trusting the shot





> 7:20 very clear as to how he rolls into is release -
> he is Wunderloos prodigey " rip the bow apart is his motto "
> Gellenthien and Van Natta are probally the two most aggressive shooters going
> ^^^ There is a lot that can be learned watching this lady shoot ^^^


Two points.

I think you are taking Terry Wunderle's "motto" literally. I have not taken his class but have discussed his lessons with several that have. He teaches a push/pull technique. He stresses a balanced, relaxed form. He does not describe it as explosive, but as controlled. The quote is closer to "pull the bow apart as the arrow is released". It is all too easy to focus on this oft quoted phrase and miss the bulk of Wunderle's technique. Mental focus, strong-controlled push/pull, and a relaxed form. 

Hinge release rotation. I can set my hinge release long and cold and take two shots. In one shot use my hand muscles to rotate the release with fixed back tension, and one with a relaxed hand and increasing back tension. Watch the hinge release and they will look the same. How would you know which I'm using - you'd have to ask. Sometimes on steep uphill shots I've got to do a bit of both. If Gellenthien says he uses hand muscles (as Nathan Brooks, Chance Beaufbouef, Levi Morgan, Darrin Christenberry did in a 2013 seminar) then fine. But if you are deducing how he's moving the release by just watching the release rotate, don't say "he manipulates " rocks " his release to the edge "manually". 

My point is not to nit-pick semantics. Hyperbole makes for poor archery advice.


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## Lazarus

Praeger said:


> But if you are deducing how he's moving the release by just watching the release rotate, don't say "he manipulates " rocks " his release to the edge "manually".
> 
> My point is not to nit-pick semantics. Hyperbole makes for poor archery advice.


Very good post above. 

Another thing that I have failed to see anyone mention that is very important in this whole "rotation" debate. The mind is an incredible thing. Take for instance you shoot without a click, set the release hot, after 40-50 shots it will no longer "seem" hot, your mind will compensate by making you rotate the release more than you did on your first few shots. Flip that around, you set the release very cold, after 40-50 shots you will probably be firing it with very little rotation because you mind will adjust to the travel, you will sub-consciously "get in to" the release deeper right off the bat. 

Why do I point that out? Just like in Praegers post above, you have no idea of how hot or cold a release is by watching a video. Just because it's cold doesn't mean there will be a lot of movement during the firing sequence. And just because it's hot doesn't mean there'll be an absence of movement. 

.02


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## dua lam pa

"Not a lot of drama on front or back end after the shot. " 


















" A lot of people see my release really rotating and think that I’m using my fingers to activate the release. While yes, my fingers are moving, the real pull is happening too. I find that I aim better with more movement in the release, so that’s why it’s there. " - Just to be clear I stated that he rolled to the edges of his release - which he does - The long horn above actually limits his finger roll - find a current video with a hinge and you will see even more movement - he activates with a pull thru - 

You can decided from the photos above if its aggressive shot - 

I am not here to argue -just pass along some info and sometimes personal opinions based on my experinces - take from this info what you like - 

- From the horses mouth - 
http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?23466-Pro-Archer-Interview-Braden-Gellenthien


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## field14

Interesting that the "click" is mentioned in this thread as it relates to a hot or a cold release.
Many of you that weren't shooting in the early 1990's likely don't know that the "Click" is far from "new". BUT....the companies (with one exception) that are making BT (misnomer) releases with a "click" only offer ONE option, and the click is what it is, period. You set the moon accordingly to get yourself set to get to the click at a certain point in your Full Draw Positioning set up, and the click is the click is the click.

Well, Zenith Archery (Joe Baurenfiend) used to make (and likely still does) DIFFERENT "degrees" of clicks on the moons, and you could order those. I cannot remember for sure, but I think you could get them in .002, .003, .004, .005, .006, and .007 degrees of click. Each moon was different and interchangeable on the release head!
So, if you wanted a "hot click", you got the 002 which meant that the "travel" from the "click" to the shot break was .002". Obviously, the .007 was the "slow click" and you had a lot more "travel" between the click and the shot break. So, you set up to hear the click, and each moon had a different amount of travel before the shot would break.
I don't think anyone else offers this with their releases; the shooters are stuck with what they get. Just like the "wrist" of the grips...unless you use form-a-grip or Surgu to build it up, you are stuck with what you get.

I still have several "moons" that have the different "clicks" travel, but the labels are worn off so I don't know for sure which is which. They didn't cost all that much, and it seems that FOR ME it was the .004 that worked far better than the "hot" .002, but cannot remember for sure, since I got away from the click due to the thing causing me a stutter step in my shot sequence when I heard the audible "click." Just isn't for me.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## dua lam pa

Tom , 

Most companies offer clicks in "speeds " now as well / its amazing how much .004 can make !


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## field14

dua lam pa said:


> Tom ,
> 
> Most companies offer clicks in "speeds " now as well / its amazing how much .004 can make !


Good to know. I don't keep up on "clicks", but I sure didn't see that on the tag for a particular adjustable release that I do have. I'll check again to see if there is a "click specification" on the package tag or not. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW!
.004 you say? OMG...there is a huge difference between a .003 and a .004 "click"! HUGE difference!
I'm just not one that does well with a "click"; the interruption screws up my rhythm and "pulling sequence" to where I let up ever so slightly when I hear the click and have to gain back that tad of lost tension AND finish the job too, all the while trying to refocus. Just doesn't work 'for me.'

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Praeger

dua lam pa said:


> "Not a lot of drama on front or back end after the shot. "
> 
> View attachment 2038586
> 
> 
> View attachment 2038587
> 
> 
> 
> " A lot of people see my release really rotating and think that I’m using my fingers to activate the release. While yes, my fingers are moving, the real pull is happening too. I find that I aim better with more movement in the release, so that’s why it’s there. " - Just to be clear I stated that he rolled to the edges of his release - which he does - The long horn above actually limits his finger roll - find a current video with a hinge and you will see even more movement - he activates with a pull thru -
> 
> You can decided from the photos above if its aggressive shot -
> 
> I am not here to argue -just pass along some info and sometimes personal opinions based on my experinces - take from this info what you like -
> 
> - From the horses mouth -
> http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?23466-Pro-Archer-Interview-Braden-Gellenthien


Here's the entire section. You're missing point number 10. He's saying he's using his back muscles to pull his elbow down and back which causes the release to roll. His fingers are relaxed to allow the roll to occur. He is saying it looks like his fingers are rolling the release, and it is moving, but it is his back providing the pull. 



> Alright, all of this happens really quickly and I don’t consciously go through every step as it’s become memory, but here goes:
> 
> 1. I come to the line and set up with the closed stance.
> 2. I pull out the arrow, nock it, and clasp my release onto the string.
> 3. At this point, I look up and focus on the target.
> 4. I concentrate on the conditions (when outdoors), determine where I’m going to aim, and visualize making the shot.
> 5. Now I raise my arm and draw, keeping focus on the target, and sometimes the flag when outdoors (to make any adjustments I may need to my aiming point).
> 6. When I raise my arm, I “pre-load” it. I have a lot of push built in as I begin the draw.
> 7. Next, I move my hand into my anchor; placing the groove between my index and middle fingers at the corner of my jaw.
> 8. I settle in, focus through the peep, and place the pin in the middle of the target.
> 9. Now, instead of focusing on keeping the pin there, I focus on minimizing movement in my bow arm. Forward movement is ok, but I try to steady my shot.
> 10. Now, the next part changes whether I’m using a trigger or back-tension. With a trigger, I place my thumb on the button and begin increasing pressure with my back until it breaks. With the back-tension, I start moving my elbow down and back while allowing the release to roll.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people see my release really rotating and think that I’m using my fingers to activate the release. While yes, my fingers are moving, the real pull is happening too. I find that I aim better with more movement in the release, so that’s why it’s there.


As for the photos (looks like early days with a Hoyt and forward facing side bar), all I can say is based on the videos of him shooting in competition over the last few years his back end follow through on most of his shots are hardly dramatic with some exceptions. My goal here has little to do with whether Gellenthien looks like he's hailing a cab after a shot. The OP asked a specific question about opinions on different styles of hinge release activation. I'm pretty sure the seminar he mentioned was the 2013 Scott Seminar (http://vimeo.com/64315814). Those guys used an "assist" technique. I'm glad you found the Gellenthien interview, it is relevant also although I disagree with your take on what Gellenthien said.


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## dua lam pa

1:30 / 1:50


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## Azzurri

I think it boils down to, there is no such thing as a no movement back tension release. But you want to move the back -- and not much -- and not be an arm puller.

I find you need a confident but smooth pull to do a good shot. I do OR and there it's important to get right out on the edge of the clicker, and not to be tentative and weak in the final expansion. The more you have to work the shot the worse it gets and the more you want to shift to the arms to pull. But that doesn't mean you don't move, or yank the heck out of it. That's asking for torque.

In compound terms, whatever y'all said.


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## nuts&bolts

dua lam pa said:


> 1:30 / 1:50


As dua lam pa shows...
it is a hinge folks,
the handle needs to rotate like a see saw.

HOW you make the handle rotate like a see saw...LOTS of ways to describe what you do,
to make the handle rotate like a see saw.


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## Lazarus

nuts&bolts said:


> it is a hinge folks,
> the handle needs to rotate like a see saw.
> 
> HOW you make the handle rotate like a see saw...LOTS of ways to describe what you do,
> to make the handle rotate like a see saw.


Who can ad to that?......Really. It's brilliant I say.


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## SonnyThomas

Ripping the bow apart.... As per Terry's own words; "I like my students pulling the bow apart." I don't know how many times he put this to print, but always pull, no push noted. And then he coined; "90% of all bad shots come from a sloppy bow arm."


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## Joe Schnur

Ok so now I will bite been itching to get this in the mix . Front arm everyone says straight and everyone does bent as you drop the front shoulder to lock. I at least cannot straighten the front arm with out the front shoulder coming up. When I look at all the Broadwater and Gellentine pics the front arm is not straight. So please chime in with this or we can start another thread


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## field14

dua lam pa said:


> Tom ,
> 
> Most companies offer clicks in "speeds " now as well / its amazing how much .004 can make !


I checked the product tag on the package and the instructions on the hinge-style release I have. The release is less than 3 months old.
There is no indication anywhere about having a choice of "click" dimensions and there is nothing written there to indicate that you can get any other "click" that the one that is installed on the release. There is absolutely no mention at all of "options" for different levels of click, be it, .002", .003, .004, .005 or whatever. It doesn't even state what the "standard click" is as far as dimensions go.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## dua lam pa

field14 said:


> I checked the product tag on the package and the instructions on the hinge-style release I have. The release is less than 3 months old.
> There is no indication anywhere about having a choice of "click" dimensions and there is nothing written there to indicate that you can get any other "click" that the one that is installed on the release. There is absolutely no mention at all of "options" for different levels of click, be it, .002", .003, .004, .005 or whatever. It doesn't even state what the "standard click" is as far as dimensions go.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)



PMed Tom


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## SonnyThomas

JVD show 2 for the Stanislawski MoreX, .006" and .010" listed cost, $14.90. Lancaster shows 2, .006" and .010", listed cost $14.20. Stated is the release does not have to be re-adjusted, just remove standard sear and install clicker type.


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## SonnyThomas

Not wanting to hijack, but picture is here. Note set back of arrow rest...torque tuning thing.


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## Padgett

You guys really suck because now your have me working on this whole motion is accuracy thing and building on my dynamic shot, of course it felt freaking awesome and that is why you guys really suck.

Last night after school I went into the bow shop and it took me a good 15 or so minutes to sight my bow in for indoor and the shop owner was talking to me a bunch so getting in a good amount of shots didn't happen but once they got done telling me a story I got in a good 20 or so minutes of shooting and about 5 or so minutes into my shooting I was shooting just fine but I thought about this thread and actually embracing the subtle little motions in the float and firing engine that do exist and just letting them happen instead of trying to keep them to a minimum. For me keeping everything to a minimum has been something that has a priority from a nice small float to a nice subtle firing engine and a nice follow through. So last night when I let go of that sense of control over my self to keep things under control and I just allowed the motion of the shot to take place it was a very nice feeling that I enjoyed. Sure my arrows were hitting the center of the x and they were hitting the center of the x before I started doing it but I can say that the overall feel of the shot was very nice and something that I will visit on a daily basis for a while and see where it takes me. I did add a very slight push forward into the target so that I could feel my body smoothly expanding, I matched the push forward with the amount of pressure against the back wall and I did really like the feel that it gave the shot especially the follow through, it felt like the bow was jumping straight into the x when the bow fired and I really liked that sensation.

Did I mention you guys suck.


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## Ned250

Praeger said:


> Here's the entire section. You're missing point number 10. *He's saying he's using his back muscles to pull his elbow down and back which causes the release to roll. His fingers are relaxed to allow the roll to occur. He is saying it looks like his fingers are rolling the release, and it is moving, but it is his back providing the pull. *
> 
> 
> 
> As for the photos (looks like early days with a Hoyt and forward facing side bar), all I can say is based on the videos of him shooting in competition over the last few years his back end follow through on most of his shots are hardly dramatic with some exceptions. My goal here has little to do with whether Gellenthien looks like he's hailing a cab after a shot. The OP asked a specific question about opinions on different styles of hinge release activation. I'm pretty sure the seminar he mentioned was the 2013 Scott Seminar (http://vimeo.com/64315814). Those guys used an "assist" technique. I'm glad you found the Gellenthien interview, it is relevant also although I disagree with your take on what Gellenthien said.


Feeling the rhomboid pulling my shoulder blade back and down is orgasmic.


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## dua lam pa

"He is saying it looks like his fingers are rolling the release, and it is moving ... "
" He is saying it looks like his fingers are rolling ... " 

you are telling us what you want to hear , not " what he siad "


" yes, my fingers are moving " 

I would love to hear how his back muscles are moving his fingers at 1:30 / 1:50 in the video - he could preform a finger puppet show with his pinky alone - he clearly rolls the release into full draw position -
No his shot does not break from manuplation of the fingers , the shot breaks from the back -


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## dua lam pa

Ned250 said:


> Feeling the rhomboid pulling my shoulder blade back and down is orgasmic.


Mah , over rated :wink:


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## Ned250

dua lam pa said:


> Mah , over rated :wink:


Hater. :zip:

In all seriousness, I can still vividly remember the day I found a dynamic shot that just felt so crisp. I was shooting a shoot at a south jersey club and I noticed my bow hand was weak. That passive shot was causing low 7 o'clock misses every single time. I subtly added some front end pressure precisely right behind the webbing part of the V of your thumb/index finger, and things really started to fall in place. We've talked about this a bit, but I'm a big feel shooter. Feeling that exact pressure in the V was a nice light bulb moment.

I'm nowhere near as aggressive as you are, but I'm not just sitting there waiting for something to happen either. Forget trying to be a statue, it just fosters that control feeling that makes you try way too hard. You'll never sit rock solid, so why try to fight it? I've said it before, but it's akin to trying to fall asleep.

When I'm on my scheduled 'up close work', this is all I work on these days.


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## dua lam pa

Ned250 said:


> Hater. :zip:
> 
> In all seriousness, I can still vividly remember the day I found a dynamic shot that just felt so crisp. I was shooting a shoot at a south jersey club and I noticed my bow hand was weak. That passive shot was causing low 7 o'clock misses every single time. I subtly added some front end pressure precisely right behind the webbing part of the V of your thumb/index finger, and things really started to fall in place. We've talked about this a bit, but I'm a big feel shooter. Feeling that exact pressure in the V was a nice light bulb moment.
> 
> I'm nowhere near as aggressive as you are, but I'm not just sitting there waiting for something to happen either. Forget trying to be a statue, it just fosters that control feeling that makes you try way too hard. You'll never sit rock solid, so why try to fight it? I've said it before, but it's akin to trying to fall asleep.
> 
> When I'm on my scheduled 'up close work', this is all I work on these days.


 WHO YOU CALLING AGGRESSIVE ? 

-- I have dropped a second or two off my shot since last time ---


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## nuts&bolts

dua lam pa said:


> WHO YOU CALLING AGGRESSIVE ?
> 
> -- I have dropped a second or two off my shot since last time ---


IF the two of you ever make it ALL the way to CALI-fornia-Stan...

just ONE day, we could work WONDERS.

I cook a MEAN slow roast beef/prime rib.


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## dua lam pa

nuts&bolts said:


> IF the two of you ever make it ALL the way to CALI-fornia-Stan...
> 
> just ONE day, we could work WONDERS.
> 
> I cook a MEAN slow roast beef/prime rib.


Only If Im the Big Spoon


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## Praeger

Ned250 said:


> In all seriousness, I can still vividly remember the day I found a dynamic shot that just felt so crisp. I was shooting a shoot at a south jersey club and I noticed my bow hand was weak. That passive shot was causing low 7 o'clock misses every single time. I subtly added some front end pressure precisely right behind the webbing part of the V of your thumb/index finger, and things really started to fall in place. Feeling that exact pressure in the V was a nice light bulb moment.


When I first started archery I couldn't fix the pin dropping to 6 o'clock. I thought it was a stabilizer issue and went down the rabbit hole of weights, stabs, etc . . . My bow hung like a plumb bob but still pounding the 6 o'clock. Out of frustration I shoved forward on my bow arm at full draw, the pin buoyed up and the shot broke as clean as I'd ever felt. The shove soon evolved into a firm press - like a quadricep stretch when you hit that sweet spot - except as a press. A light bulb moment indeed.


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## [email protected]

To Craig WTO:

You and I have had this conversation many times, but it went like this again this evening while setting up my hunting bow... 

Draw length was correct and my shot set up was correct..... Push/Pull 50/50 and maintain long enough to put the pin on the spot..... Increase the pull with the back, offset it with the same pressure forwards.....aim.....aim.....aim......pow! I experiment often but always come back to this.. I think my pulling and offset pushing is equal. Or it feels that way anyway..


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## Ned250

dua lam pa said:


> Only If Im the Big Spoon


OK, I LOL'ed.


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## Padgett

I have a question for you guys, Since this discussion started I have been working on these thoughts in my indoor shooting this week and for me if I specifically say to myself push and pull the pushing feeling just feels weird and is hard to regulate the same feel from shot to shot. But when I simply tell myself to "Shoot with Motion and Expand" my body responds to that simple phrase and my shot feels very easy to mimic shot after shot.

For me in the last few months I have been settling in and my front arm is solid sitting back in my shoulder socket and I smoothly pull on the wall and I run a firing engine which had the "Motion=Accuracy" feel to it. This week though I have been working on my entire system having that Motion=Accuracy, So basically instead of me running a firing engine with only my rear arm I am running a firing engine with my entire system and it feels like I am expanding my bow into the target and my release into the wall, it is a very smooth and subtle expansion and I am not ripping the cams off of the bow.

So I guess my question is for you guys that have already been there, what if anything am I missing or am I going in a good direction. right now I am training with both methods shooting 5 shots of each method at my 5-spot target, both feel really good and I am not going to say either is more accurate at this moment because I was already shooting at a high level but I am looking for you guys to give me your thoughts on the feelings that I am going to experience in the next couple of months so that I have something to train and look forward to.


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## [email protected]

I really appreciate all of the feedback. Thanks for the pictures, videos and experience. 
Along with the different release activation and strong shot techniques, I interpret motion=accuracy as not starting and stoping during the shot process. I've been trying to complete my shot with a smooth and constant motion. If it doesn't go off in time or I stop the motion, I let down and start over. I want it to feel like snow sliding off of a tin roof. 
Easier said than done. 
Thanks again,
Craig


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## montigre

Ned250 said:


> OK, I LOL'ed.


Where's that "like" button?:??? lol!!


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## subconsciously

For me the dynamics of a shot go from an external movement to an internal movement. The increase of tension never stops. From anchor, transfer, to holding the increase in tension never stops. Once back tension stops the holding goes from the back to the arms. You can't go back. Pulling the bow apart is fine. You just have to you the right muscles to do it. 

.02


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## Padgett

Last night I took one of my hinges the inside out x and I put it in my hand and I asked myself what would make it feel better and in a few minutes I had moved the thumb peg and experimented a few times and found a new set up for it. I then set the speed nice and slow so I could draw safely and it felt really nice, almost so different like it was a different release. I then drew and let down and speeded it up a few times to get it to a nice speed to start out shooting with until I was ready to finalize it to my perfect speed.

Now for the surprise, Since this thread I have been working on "motion = accuracy" and the speed I chose along with the new set up for the hinge was really really nice. This was one of the best feeling set ups I have ever experienced with a hinge and it really fit right into my firing engine and I had a nice 20 minutes or so of shooting with it before I had to go.

I really like this concept of motion = accuracy because over my 4 years of hinge shooting I have grown to hate just standing there and waiting for the hinge to fire. I believe that running a firing engine that is doing a job is a big advantage over setting a hinge really fast and then sitting on the edge waiting for it to fire.


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## ron w

" motion equals accuracy" simply means that an accurate shot is on that is deliberately executed and that deliberation requires the motion that executes the shot.....the shot won't happen by itself.....you have to make it happen.


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## fanio

How does that differ from squeezing a trigger??


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## N7709K

Are you asking about working both halves into the shot process or the mental approach to running your shot process?


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## ron w

apples and oranges...
the "motion" being discussed, is within the subconscious release execution. the mental signal to begin the "motion"....that is the "subconscious release execution" is a conscious thought and is the progenerator that starts the "motion" that from there on, the subconscious takes over to run the shot.
when you are squeezing the trigger, there is conscious signals being generated that regulate that squeeze, during the entire shot. these conscious signals that regulate the squeeze, are distracting from the aiming efforts you're making during the shot. they cannot both run on the same "roads" at the same time, one has to wait for the other to pass before using the road.....that's where the distraction generates and motion becomes intimidated.
if your release execution is subconsciously driven the only signal needed is the signal to put it in action. once that signal is received the release starts. at that point, you want a release that has to outwardly have some motion to it, so that the shot is deliberate and done with a positive "movement" that has no ambiguity about itself. the more recognizable that positive movement is, the less intimidated the shot process is to "whether it should run or not". 
when the shot process is clearly generated....."yes, it is time to run", the more confident the execution becomes and the movement of that execution is required, to make that deliberate shot. whenthe movement is intimidated, the shot is said to be "weak" and that leaves a big hole for target panic to step into.
so..."movement equals accuracy", means the shot has to be deliberate, confident and clearly instrumented, in order for the shot to be accurate. if these conditions exist, target panic will not be a problem.
most everything we do to rid our shot process of target panic, blind baling , 10 yard baling, etc. , is done to establish this confidence of deliberate shot execution that is the "movement".


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## AJ the TP Guru

Well, lots of good info, and some not so good.

No question that there will always be motion (float). But that doesn't mean don't try to keep the pin still. Every message I do for TP afflicted archers, including the personalized ones, emphasize remaining "rock solid." Seems to get the job done.
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V


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## RCR_III

EPLC said:


> Here's a great video from 2010 of a shoot off between Braden and Jesse. I've watched it many, many times. You can really see the release of each quite well. It's incredible how steady Jesse is on every shot. It's no wonder he hardly ever misses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnoUNfUQ-s&feature=player_embedded


That's a cool video to watch. Parts of Jesse's shot is a good bit different now than then. And Braden's bow is set up different now as well. Cool to see the evolution between them.


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## Dr. Perk

tagged for later


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## Joe Schnur

Spent some time with my coach set up an HBC properly first time I actually used back muscles to properly execute back tension . Hand relaxed pull click happens et aim keep pulling with back elbow rotating around shoulder and bang the shot goes off . No finger movement required nothing it just goes off. Did not believe it worked that way but I am now hooked


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## ron w

exactly.
when it's running well, you get the feeling that you did nothing, to activate the shot, because all conscious activity, every bit of it, is on the sight picture. the sub conscious starts and stops by that visual command,..... we see the ball coming towards us and automatically ,without conscious thought, put the glove in front of it. 
same goes for the subconscious release process.... in it's basic form, we see the pin settling on the bull and that picture triggers the subconscious to run the release process. it should take no conscious affirmation or administration. there are other more advanced issues that deal with the smooth flow of a shot, but it's basic foundation, is exactly that.
most people don't spend enough time or don't apply enough quality time, to the forming of that link, in front of the blind bale and short bale. in both drills, it is the conscious application of what is going on as we shoot, that forms the process, not the time, nor the number of shots made, beyond the amounts needed to learn the process, or maintain it's good function. certainly, there is a minimum amount of time and shots required, but the number is of no concern, as compared to the quality of the conscious application when doing the drills.


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## multi-target

Tagged


----------

