# Padgett, judging yardage



## Padgett

I just had a guy ask about judging yardage and I wrote him this pm and thought I would just put it here also, enjoy and if you also have some tricks feel free to add them.


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## Padgett

GROUND JUDGING

1. Nothing compares to shooting a bunch of events, I shoot about 40 3d shoots per year so I am getting hundreds of targets to practice judging.

2. You must learn to find you 20 yard spot on the ground within a yard every time, when you are ground judging using trees or rocks or the target or the terrain is key to finding your 20 yard mark. It is the basic distance that you must be able to nail down.

3. Now here is the important part for ground judging, you must learn what ten yards looks like from 20 to 30 and then from 30 to 40. There is no need to know what 10 yards looks like from where you are standing to 10 yards in front of you, 10 yards looks differently the farther you are from the target and learning how to judge the last little section of distance is where the trouble shows up. So, here is how you train yourself to what 10 yards looks like. You put a orange cone at 10 and 20 yards outside at your little shooting range and you stand at 40 yards. So now you look at the first cone which is 20 yards away and that is how far 20 yards is, the second thing you do is look at the distance from the 20 to 30 yard cones and this is what your brain must memorize as your 10 yard distance. It is so important to learn that this 10 yard look from 20 to 30 is the one that is important not the perception of something actually being 10 yards from where you are standing. Now take a look at the cone from 10 to the target, you will notice that it only looks around 7 yards from the target when compared to the 10 yard distance from the 20 yard cone to the 30 yard cone.

So at this point I have talked to you about your standard ground judging out to 20 yards as being your first job, then you look for something on the ground that is another 10 yards past your 20 yard position and then you look to see if the target is another 7 yards past that and you know if it is 40 yards.

A bunch of targets in my asa national 3d tournaments will be around 42 yards and I have learned that when I find my 20 and then my 30 if the distance from my 30 yard position looks like another 10 yards to the target then it is 42 yards.

NOW FOR TARGET SIZE JUDGING

Target size judgine is the key and right now it will be hard for you to believe that it can be done but just this last summer I actually got to the point where I am actually doing it. You basically just mentally take a picture of how big the animal looks at every distance and memorize it, then when you step up to the shooting stake you can look at the target and instantly know within a yard of how far the animal really is.

I started out by doing this at 40 yards, I shoot at 40 yards a lot when practicing so I can just tell when something is 40 yards. As time goes by you will learn to look at targets without using the ground and know how far they are instantly.

OTHER LITTLE TRICKS.

1. Rocking, you stand at the target and rock back and forth on your feet and look at the tip of the nose and the tail and you draw a invisible line from your nose to the animal and where the two lines cross is the midpoint. Then you just have to ground judge to the mid point and if it is 21 yards then the shot is a 42 yard shot.

2. Definition of the target surface, The foam animal targets we shoot have a specific surface and I can see it at 20 yards perfectly. By 30 yards it is fuzzy and by 40 yards it looks smooth. You can also use the facial features.

ARROW FLIGHT

I can not tell you how important this is, I live and die by arrow flight. you just have to learn what arrow flight looks like at certain distances. In our asa tournaments everyone is shooting 295fps so everyones arrow flight looks the same so:

20 yds 
The arrow looks like a lazer beam and there is no drop

30 yards
The arrow is still very straight and you almost see a little drop

40 yards
The arrow really wants to start dropping a bunch but it holds onto its line and drops just a little.

45 yards 

The arrow really drops a bunch around 5 to 7 inches and you really see the drop happen in the last part right before it hits the target.

50 yards
Holy crap that arrow started dropping 20 yards before getting to the target and it dropped a foot or so.

I hate going first because I need to see at least one guy shoot so I can watch his arrow flight because if I guess a target to be 39 yards and then the first shooter steps up there and the arrow drops a bunch the last few feet of the shot I know that it is probably 44 yards and I check my ground judging again.

If I guess a shot to be 44 yards and then the first guy shoots and his arrow really never dropped the last few feet of his shot then I know it is more like 40 yards.

If I am going to be shooting this shot first I walk over and watch another group shoot the shot so I can see the arrow flight before I shoot.

RANGE FINDER

1. We carry range finders on the local ranges and we shoot and then range the target with the range finder after scoring the arrows, most groups don't want range finders on their courses but we are trying to win a national championship so we need the practice and this is huge.

2. Take it with you everywhere, I have daughters who play sports and between games and matches I go out in the parking lot and spend 30 minutes ranging everything. This works well at stupid family functions to get out of the house.


I don't know, that is a good little list of stuff to get you started and plenty to work on for a while. I shoot with a 3dshooter25 and he is amazing, he is a semi pro asa shooter and he really can range within one yard almost all the time. One fun thing we do at a buddies house is to guess the distance to the target and write it down and then use the range finder to see the actual distance, you get 0 pts if you are within 1 yard and you get 1 point for each yard over or under the distance. We usually shoot 30 targets at this guys house and by the end of the night I will have around 25 points or so added up as missed yards. 3dshooter 25 will only have around 7 points because 23 of the targets he will guess within .3 of the target. He is a target size judger and really doesn't use the ground but watching him is what allowed me to learn how to judge with target size also.

Good luck and if you have any questions just pm me and I may have some more tricks that I think of.


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## DeepRiverHunter

Great information!


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## Jaliv92

Tagged


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## rohpenguins

Great read could you please explain the rocking thing a little more I am having a hard time visualizing what you mean. thanks


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## ar1220

Great post...I'm kinda lost on the rocking method also esp the part about the point where the lines intersect.I use the ground reading method after I learned it..


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## Repair Man

Man Padgett is amazing. I must shoot 30 tournaments a year, many practice rounds, 50 arrows a day, and still cant come up with 1/10th of what he knows. My Judging is so bad i have to shoot known. I am like you guys, more info on rocking method please Mr Padgett.


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## WAAC

Good stuff.. Thanks for sharing


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## Huntin Hard

Good post! This will help with my ASA circuit this year


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## harley36

Man great post lots of helpful information here thanks


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## DaveB

tag


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## Padgett

The rocking method:

Well, tonight go outside and pick something wide like a propane tank and stand at 40 yards or some distance with your range finger in hand and center your self and look at it straight on. Ok now lean over to the right and look at the left end of the tank and draw a invisible thin lazer beam from the end of the tank to your nose, then lean to the left and look at the right end of the tank and draw another lazer beam from there to your nose. 

Those two lazer beams are going to cross at the midpoint between you and the target and once you find that midpoint between yourself and the target then you can just doubble it and know the total distance.

Now why is it the rocking method, because you have to look at the two lazer beams a few times before you can mentally start seeing where they cross so you see guys rocking all the time on the course.

This rocking method goes right back to what I told you in the first post I made that being able to really nail down your 20 yard distance perfect or at least within a half a yard is so important because once you rock and find the midpoint and then you try and figure out how far that midpoint really is you are going to want to use your 20 yard guess to do so. If you are two yards off on your 20 yard guess then when you doubble the midpoint yardage now you are going to be 4 yards off.

I use the rocking method as one of my secondary methods, I am a ground judger most of the time on all targets and I use target size as my second check because we shoot makenzie targets so much that you can just tell how far they are then I use as my third and very important check is arrow flight. The other tricks that I use are what I refer to as my secondary checks that I use to pass the time waiting to shoot or if I am struggling on a target.

I will sat that the asa range guys are brilliant at tricking us, they have years of experience at taking the ground away so you can't ground judge and many times this year the only thing you could see was part of the core section and none of the head or butt or legs. I was in the final group for shooter of the year in open a this year and my goal was to shoot and beat Justin Hanna, to me he was the dominant shooter in my open a class and in first place for shooter of the year. I matched him shot for shot the first day and I think we were tied after the first day at something like 12 up and I was so excited, I just know that he is a future pro shooter and to be able to shoot right there with him was the icing on the cake for me this year. The second day I started out awesme and I believe I smoked a few 12's early and was something like 8 up within 9 or so targets and I was really confident in my weekend rolling on to at least a podium finish for the weekend and possibly a podium finish for shooter of the year. I stepped up to a javilina target which is a small black pig and they had taken the last 10 or so yards away from us with a little hump in the ground of dirt and the head I believe was behind a tree and you couldn't see the legs or the bottom of his belly. I am 6"1 inches tall and I really don't think you could see the bottom 1 inch of his foam on his belly under the 10 ring and there is only a couple inches anyway. I looked over the shot and did my ranging and I felt 150% sure that I was shooting a 38 yard shot so I decided to go ahead and shoot it for 39 yards. I drew back and shot a awesome shot and my arrow vanished under the dirt hump out of sight, I had heard foam but I was sure I had missed the target under his belly. Everyone was quiet like they always are when you make a poor shot and I started that I had really heard foam. I did barely catch the last quarter inch of foam dead on straight under the 12 ring for a 5 on the shot, after making the shot everyone else had seen my arrow flight and they knew that it was probably a 42 yard shot and it was. At that distance you are losing 1.5 inches per yard so by mis judging by three 4 yards and then adding one on for safety I had given my arrow 4.5 inches of extra drop into the belly.

Did I mention that asa range guys are awesome at tricking us, That shot probably cost me over a thousand bucks but my weekend was a good one. When you are shooting with open a shooters one target is the difference in top 10 and 30th place sometimes. I shot strong enough to stay top ten that day even with the 5 but my mistake was I was telling a story to someone instead of going over and watching the group ahead of me, I shot the javilina shot first because it was my turn and I didn't get to watch arrow flight. 1000 dollar mistake because I ended up missing 3rd for shooter of the year by 1 pt.


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## sagecreek

Don't forget sound judging and scope judging.


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## Padgett

Wow, I forgot one of the most important things.

MAKENZIE TARGETS

To be a good target judger you absolutely must learn the size of the targets because even if you are a ground judger the targets are going to eat your lunch. The big Wolf is the one that gets me the most because they like to put it at 28 or 32 yards on a regular basis and the wolf is very big and big targets look closer than they really are. So in texas on day two the first target of the day I shot the easy wolf target for 27 yards when it was actually 31 yards and I hit about a half inch low for a 8, at that distance you aren't losing as many inches but you also don't add as much safety yardage into the shot so I guessed it for 27 and shot it for 27 and had to take my 8.

Now just because they are mean they will usually put within the next target or two the little coyote which looks exactly like the wolf but it is very small and they will put it out at 42 yards and the fact that it is super small makes it look like it is 45 yards and those three yards add up to shooting out the top of the 10 ring. What is really bad is when a guy is scared that it looks like 45 yards so he aims at the top of the 10 ring with it set on 45 yards and he misses the target because it was only 42 yards.

So what are the tricks:

You have to shoot the makenzie targets long enough that you already know what your brain is going to do, I already know that when I have a wolf that looks like it is 29 yards it is probably at least 31 or 32 yards. You need to have every single target memorized on weather when you see it it is going to be spot on or that particular target is going to fool you into being shorter or longer.

GAME PLAN FOR AIMING:

Your aiming or game plan for the 3d shoot is critical. In the past I have done like many others and on some targets I aim center 10 to stay safe and some targets I aim at the 12 because it is a easy target and some I aim at the top of the 10 line because it is a really long target. To me this game plan sucks because you get confused about what in the crap you are going to do on each target and you get to second guessing your yardage to make that aiming decision work.

My game plan this entire season was so freaking simple and it produced 4 top ten finishes in open a and I shot 20 up in paris and made the podium and made the final group doing the same thing for 7x40=280 shots, that is how many shots I took in open a this season because I went to all of them. I guessed my yardage and then I added a little to that number, I then aimed directly at the center of the 12 ring every stinking time. 

Now why in the world does that help with your ranging, because you are doing the same end result every shot. regardless of the distance you are guessing spot on and then adding to it some safety yardage. Funny thing is that on the closer shots you can add a little more safety yardage than you can on the longer shots because up close the difference between 23 and 24 yards is only a quarter inch of change where at 46 yards the difference is 2 inches. So basically this method allowed me to relax on all shots from 20 to 25 yards and I shot dead on at the 12 ring and I either hit the 12 or missed a little high for a nice 10, then on the longer shots I made sure I was really specific with my safety yards so I didn't shoot out the top of the 10 ring but i still shot dead on at the 12 ring.


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## tmorelli

There is a coach who taught a big % of the past, current and near-future pros to judge. Many of the others use his system as they were taught by others who did learn it direct. 

He's available and a little cash spent developing a relationship with a (good) coach will pay for itself many times over.


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## rohpenguins

I need to find a system... The yardage game kills me.... I am trying the rocking system but for some reason I come in about 4 yards long using nothing but rocking... This is the first year that I am going to really focus on 3d.... I have even set up my own range.... Keep the information flowing


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## Repair Man

I will get 16 correct and really blow up on 3 or 4 by 4-5 yds short and long. I think that shooting hunter at 30 yds so long with one pin that i am spoiled and lazy. Funny thing is i will miss judge the under thirty yard shots the most !!!


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## wpk

THanks for sharing


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## stoz

I wrote a seminar on this and Padgett covered pretty much all of it. I would also add go where ever you can to judge and m ave your bow. You can judge alot if u dont shoot and you will soon realize that certain targets you will be off by the same number every time. Targets that you have trouble with buy them if you can. They will soon be your best targets. Sound judging helps me alot. Basically confirming what your thinking. Also learn to snap judge or first look judge. Sometimes its all you have and the ground decieve s alot.


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## stoz

Also if I can ill go over what I call calibrating


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## stoz

Calibrating your vision.
you have to know how far away a target appears . Unlike Padgett I only use ground to confirm my feel of how far away a target appears which I determine by how far it looks by body size and just by the calibration I've done which ill explain. Knowing tendency to over or under judge particular targets helps a ton to.
The calibration process. 
There are several ways to do this. One thing is for sure the ground will deceive you. What I do is find objects be it trees light poles rocks what ever you have and stop every time you go by that object and look and see how far it looks. You need to find as many objects as you can that you daily pass and hopefully many times a day to look at. The objects need to be in the typical yardage that your class shoots. And definitely the yardage that that your average shot is. Also when I shoot at a target butt outside it is always my average yardage for that class. Pause in between shots and look at the target and tell yourself its x far away. You will soon be able between this calibration and target size if you do this daily be able to step to the stack regardless of terrain and determine very close the distance. Most people dont have alot of targets available to look at daily like I do so it makes the calibrating even more important. Good luck


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## ProtecMan

Nice read. Thanks guys!


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## 3rdCoastHunter

Excellent info right there!


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## blackheel

Thanks for the info!


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## stoz

Im lucky enough to work outside at a water treatment plant and I have light poles every where so every time I pass a spot that I know is the distance I want I stop and look at the pole and remind myself its so many yards. Also trees spread out around there too I look at. It helps alot
But it has to be a daily process. I think most pros will say range 3x as much as you shoot. I keep track of my targets that I range behind my house almost every night and I can range 20 plus targets in a half hour and I average just over .1/2 yards off and usually will go a week wo being over 2 yards off on any during the peak comp season. But I do this daily.


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## Padgett

For me I just need a stinking complete range, I really hoped to buy one this year and I have a 5 acre yard that is wooded to make lanes and set them up for ranging and stuff but we lost a job and just couldn't. To me everyone that is one step ahead of me on ranging has a range or access to a range that they visit on a regular basis during the week and they practice ranging more than they shoot. These are the guys that can step up and just take a glance at the target without ground judging and know the distance.

For me by the time I shoot the super man week at metropolis I can start to feel it start to happen, we show up tuesday morning and from then till sunday when we leave we are on a practice range or shooting a scoring round on the superman course and the weekend tournament and by sunday you can just walk up to targets and basically just look at it and know the range within a yard.

I have been shooting 3d since 2007 and I avoided the asa course in my area because I didn't like the people that ran it and the low back scoring for the first few years but then I lost some of the little shoots that I went to and finally started going to the asa course and the makenzie targets screwed me up, I was used to shooting the rinheart stuff at the other shoots. Now I hate going to the rineheart courses because they don't give me any help of seeing the makenzie stuff.

I am a ground judger because that is what I have always done but to me I need to continue becoming a target judger who uses ground judging as a second priority check to win out of semi pro so I can move into the pro class.


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## 04razortec

Thanks! My wife and I are going to try this ASA thing this year. Will use as much of this as we can process. :thumbs_up


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## R.CHER

Tag


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## stoz

Padgett
I agree if I didn't have an almost full range I would definitely struggle but try the calibration I talked about. You will after awhile be able to pick out trees or just look at the target and say that it looks like one of those objects that you look at daily. Having the targets is key . I also will try to walk at lunch time in a woods next to where I work and range trees. I am always amazed at how much harder it is to range trees without a target to reference off of.


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## Trykon Mike

tagged


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## osagebender

Thanks for all the information. Loved how you explained aiming, that just clicked with me and that's how I am planning on shooting ASA this year.


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## Padgett

Stoz, I totally agree that looking at trees is a really important way to help in my ranging. I didn't really touch base on it earlier but I actually know how far it is when I can no longer really see bark definition. Also when shooting a shot down into a valley off the side of a ridge where the target is way below you and possibly the ground has vanished what I do is follow the trees up to my eye level and I range the trees looking straight out from where I am standing. This works awesome to find your 20 yard tree and many times you are looking into the leaves of the tree but I try and use the trunk where it is splitting off into other stuff, it isn't like we are above the canopy looking down. Usually I am maybe 15 or 20 feet above the target down in the little valley and looking straight out would be around where a hunter would sit in that tree.

It is amazing how much different the shoot looks when you look straight out on a elevation drop type target.


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## Padgett

To me the hardest thing about ranging is when they do weird stuff to a shooting lane.

1. a chain saw cut log in front of the target so you can't see the legs or the ground from the log to the target. Is the target 12 yards past the log or 3 yards past the log.

2. A dip or a mound of dirt in front of the target in the last 15 yards that doesn't allow you to get a good look at the last portion of the range.

3. Standing in the sun but the shooting lane is in the woods and very dark.

4. Whole shooting lane is bright sun but the last 6 yards is in the shade.

5. Target slightly behind or hiden by a huge oak tree, the big tree is unusual compared to the normal 12 inch diameter variety stuff and mess with you.

6. Putting the front section or rear section or both behind trees so you can't see the entire animal.

7 standing on a sloping lane where it is flat for 20 yards and then the last 20 or so yards tapers off and the legs of the animal aren't visible from the stake or the last 15 yards of the ground.

All of these things lead up to misjudging the target by freaking 4 to 7 yards and you just have to learn how to deal with it and not make as many mistakes. My buddy Blake Allen is the best yardage guy that i shoot with and he judges within a half yard almost all the freaking time and it pizzes me off that he can do that but Blake can't believe that I score as well as I do. The reason I score as well as I do is because I have a very simple and solid 3d asa game that I play and I play it every stinking shot regardless of the distance of the shot and it makes me very consistent on the course. I have the ability to misjudge by up to 3 to 4 yards on a regular basis and still score well, obviously when I am ranging very good I score better but don't underestimate building a strong 3d game and then learning to actually do it when you are out there.

If you want to discuss a strong 3d game you can pm me.


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## MarineSTC

Good info here, thanks.


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## treestandnappin

For later.


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## Padgett

Got out and did my first 3d shoot yesterday and had a lot of fun, I did have something happen that you new 3d shooters need to learn to deal with. I shot my first few targets and immediately noticed that I was hot, what I mean is that my brain was guessing about 1.5 yards farther than the shot really was every target so I needed to re calibrate my brain. I do this by ranging my target after everybody has shot the shot with a range finder, I know that most courses don't like range finders on the course but the fact is I am using the local tournaments to prepare for national asa shoots so I have to do it and it is a huge technique that is overlooked by most people.

I learned this trick two years ago from my buddy Blake who is the best ranger that I personally shoot with who can range within a half yard almost every time, on the 3d practice ranges at the asa tournaments on friday he would range the target and come up with a number and then he checked it with his range finder before shooting the shot. I would guess my yardage and shoot the shot and then check it with the range finder, I thought I was doing myself a favor by doing it this way but finally I tried his method and it works way better. Now of course at a local 3d shoot you have to shoot the shot first and then check it.

How do I reset my brain, I am not sure how it works but my brain sees 20 yards on the ground or at least what it thinks 20 yards is. So by picking a rock or a tree that I think is 20 yards and then checking it with the range finder I can prove to my brain that it is wrong and then and only then will it adjust itself to what 20 yards really is. There is many times during a season that my 20 yard setting in my head will be off by a good 2 yards early in a day depending on the terrain especially when traveling to a new state with different brush and trees and grass but within a few minutes I can have my brain re calibrated and be good to go.


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## psearcher2

tag


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## pahunter1980

Great info here tag thanks to all


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## Unk Bond

Hello
Nice post. [ Later


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## jwilson48

Tag


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## water tech

Stupid Family Functions????


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## Sean243

^^^^^^ I kind of doubt he literally meant every single family function he attends is stupid. I know that I attend a lot of family functions and I could probably consider a couple out of every year to be stupid or at least maybe part of it was stupid. That doesn't mean I think my family is stupid or all the time spent being there was stupid. I'm guessing the op feels the same way.

I think taking a break to go out for a little walk and range some inanimate objects would be far less offensive than staring at the screen on a smart phone for 20% or more of the time. Plenty of people are guilty of that at family gatherings.


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## HIArcher

Tagged


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## MXandSXracer21

Wow! Great info! I am fairly new to archery but want to start 3D archery here soon. This info will definitely help!


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## rockyw

> Great read could you please explain the rocking thing a little more I am having a hard time visualizing what you mean.


Good advice on range estimation but the rocking thing is still a bit iffy. To work you would need to rock left and right the distance from head to tail on each animal. I think I will skip this on an elk or I might fall over?


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## Padgett

I put out the rocking method just because way to many guys use it to ignore it, to me it is really low on my priority list. 

But

When I step up to a target and I see 20 yards on the ground and then I rock back and forth and draw the imaginary lines cross after the 20 yard marker holy crap I take notice that I have a long shot that may have been fooling me because of target size or something. I don't really use it as a final decision for my yardage guess but it is a method that throws up a red flag and gets my attention that a tricky target is in front of me.


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## brianboyd

great write up!


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## Grnmtn

rocking method... with a little practice can change your life. It can give you those last few yards you are not sure of. Best way to practice. Pick your target take an arrow to start and stick it in the ground 10 yards from the target. Walk back to any distance you choose. rock from foot to foot slowly. see how much of the 8 or 10 the tip of the arrow in the ground moves thru. Once you practice this for a bit, even if the legs are covered you can get a good idea if there are ten yards, 5 yards, depending on how hard you practice it. You get good with arrows, then switch to a stick, or even with a rock on the ground. you will be surprised how well this will work.


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## rattlinman

tagged


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## DA_DOGG14

Tagged.....


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## DClapp

As someone else implied, the rocking method can't work unless you rock at a width equivalent to the width of the animal you are looking at. But if you do, it works great and can be very helpful. For example, if the animal is 4 feet wide nose to tail, then you have to originate those two imaginary lines at 4 feet of separation. Simple math. It's difficult on something like the standing bear that is only maybe shoulder width wide.


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## wv hoyt man

Marked


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## SonnyThomas

DClapp said:


> As someone else implied, the rocking method can't work unless you rock at a width equivalent to the width of the animal you are looking at. But if you do, it works great and can be very helpful. For example, if the animal is 4 feet wide nose to tail, then you have to originate those two imaginary lines at 4 feet of separation. Simple math. It's difficult on something like the standing bear that is only maybe shoulder width wide.


Rocking works to some degree if only using the area of the shooting stake. Most time the area around/behind the shooting stake is fairly wide.

......

I didn't see it, but there's ground judging out to the target and judging from the target back. Once judging is learned, set in your mind, it doesn't take but mere seconds to come up with the yardage.

That I shoot so many different clubs that use different brand targets I use ground judging.


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