# Deadliest Warrior: Apache bow kill shots



## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

So, on this program on Spike called Deadliest Warrior, they pit 2 warriors from different cultures against each other in a computer model after reviewing the capabilities of their weapons. 

The Apache in particular was an interesting choice because of the bow they used. 
It register 65mph arrow speed through the chrony and used knapped and rusty Fe heads. The anatomically correct upper body he shot with it registered numerous kill shots due to penetration into arteries through the ribs and such. 

I don't find it incredible, since the plains Indians did kill people and food with their bows. But, I find it interesting particularly after all the KE arguments on this forum by the uninitiated and the disregard for the low KE of the selfbow or osage bows. 

Here's the episode, if you want to watch. The whole segment is neat, including the Gladiator weapon usage and Apache knife techniques. The archery part is pretty cool though. The Apache archer was very proud of his culture's archery tradition and took the challenge pretty personally. 
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/apache-vs-gladiator/31444


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I saw that episode...*

I had to agree with the outcome.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I saw that episode and was surprised at the poor penetration and speed of the bow they used.

Some of those arrows looked like they only penetrated a couple of inches but what can you expect from a bow shooting only 95fps.

IMO...the bow they used wasn't a good representation of an actual Apache bow based on my experience building reproduction and replica Native American Indian bows.

I did find the show very entertaining though 

Ray


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## elk country rp (Sep 5, 2005)

humans aren't that tough.....
after spending some time in a cadaver lab, i realized that human bones are about as dense as whitetail deer bones.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know Native American bows were never as powerful as their European counterparts. NAs depended on their ability to stalk and get close, and therefore never built bows as powerful. So that bow probably is pretty close to being representative. Of course it is wrong to group "Native Americans," (Because they were so different in culture and society) however I believe it is true of the Apache.

However it could have been just a weak bow. But it proves you don't need much power for a kill.


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

A very interesting & entertaining show, it did have some interesting points.

I'm no scholar {sp} but 95fps is not too bad conciddering that many of the NA arrows did weigh quite a bit & using the tactic of stelth to get close does make that a very formidable weapon.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

That seems terribly slow. None of my own wooden bows shoot less than 155 fps- and that's a slow one. I've made semi-replicas of their short bows too and that seems extremely poor compared to my own. Bows or yester-year weren't being compared to machine manufactured bows though. Now, selfbows are only slightly less powerful than their fiberglass cousins (for the most part).

But this does show humans _are_ very easy to kill. Maurice Thompson wrote that a man could be killed with a 30# ladies bow. Seems reasonable to me.

Another thing- though Natives typically just got closer and were good at tracking (West Cost, Eastern, and Northern), some- just like in our culture- like heavy, powerful weapons. They used them for war at least. But when you use a primary loose and a little 48" hunting bow, shooting over 60-70# becomes difficult. And unlike the Asians or English, they didn't have to pierce armor at a few hundred yards.

The Plains were, normally, a different story. They were highly trained warriors on horseback. Their short little bows were built to shoot their relatively light arrows at a good speed with good manuverability, and there are numerous accounts of bows shooting 80 yards and striking whites. Reproductions have shown this also. I'm not sure that show was an accurate depiction- if it is then the white shouldn't really have had too much to fear?

But it certainly seems to have made people think that all wooden bows are weak now- which is most certainly not the case.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Unless you have experience making and/or shooting primitive bows and arrows like kegan and I...it can be easy to believe what a TV show tells you.

That isn't meant to be disrespectful or come across as being arrogant. For many of us...it is human nature to want to believe something that you are told by people acting like experts.

2" to 3" of penetration isn't much at all...and is definitely an indication of arrows not tuned any were most likely no where close to being tuned to where they need be or shooting as fast as they could be.

My friend made a 50lbs. short selfbow and killed an elk with it getting penetration all the way to the fletch with a selfarrow and a flint broadhead.

95fps. is slow for a bow...like really slow. 

Could a bow shooting that slow kill someone? 

Sure...but I can almost guarantee that the bow and arrows used in that episode could have been made better to shoot a more realistic higher fps. I would also bet the arrows were no where close to being in tune with that bow either.

Ray


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

My Mohawk Grandfather used to joke that when he was a kid he could run fast enough to catch up with a rabbit to feel if it was fat enough before he dispatched it. Later on he told me that I should be able to get close enough to make sure the game was big enough to feed who it was intended to feed. Also, so that I could look directly into it's eyes, or that it could hear me thank it for giving up it's life. Anything else is not hunting...but hoping. Yes, you can kill a deer with 30lbs or less IF you hunt instead of hope. 

Maybe the hunting bows in the museum were 40-45lbs or more, but they didn't have a 28" anchor either...stealth, speed and accuracy were supreme when killing - of any kind - was involved. There are long distance bows (long bows) used from shorelines or open fields that are more powerful.

It's only the English that over-do everything out of fear and want, and take risks with other lives. (no offense intended...just fact) 

Original Native saying; "Take only what you need, use everything you take."

This one paragraph from Dick Mauch's interview, concerning Fred Bear's Grizzly kill, sums up the Non-Native mentality to 'hunting/killing.

" I have a copy of the 16mm movie which Bolding filmed, but which Fred chose not to release because of the fluorescent feathered, crested arrow killing shot having hit in the side of the head. The bear made it to the opposite bank went unconscious on his back and had to be dispatched by Fred shooting another arrow into its chest. A willow stem between him and the bear deflected Fred's first shot, which was at 30' away. It hit the bear in the flank, scrotal area and the bear reared and turned his head to the wound, then started to retreat to the other side. Fred had another arrow nocked and released with in about 3 seconds, which was the head shot. "

No self-respecting Native would have taken the first shot, regardless of the bow weight used.

Sorry if I ranted...Many also need to research the Apache, who they were and why to know their close-encounter killing methods, and why higher weights were not needed. (Hint: They were renegades ostracized by the peaceful Dine Nation)


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

bradd7 said:


> It's only the English that over-do everything out of fear and want, and take risks with other lives. (no offense intended...just fact)


Gotta disagree with you on that. ALL people are people...no matter what tribe, skin color, gender or nation we are from.

Apaches, Mohawks, Cherokees or any other Nation have done things out of fear and want and have taken risks with other lives. It isn't ONLY the English. That has to be one of the most prejudice comments I have seen on here lately!

Being part Cherokee...I'm familiar with the admiration and respect my people have towards the animals that move among us but we are not the only people who feel that way...nor are we beyond sinful nature.

Ray


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## tpoof (Dec 18, 2005)

I liked everything BUT that statement.
Right on Ray! man is man.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

> nor are we beyond sinful nature.


I agree, apologize and retract that statement. It's isn't ONLY the non-natives.

Sorry...my mind got carried away with instilled crapola! 

Thanks for the heads up Ray!


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Gotta disagree with you on that. ALL people are people...no matter what tribe, skin color, gender or nation we are from.
> 
> Apaches, Mohawks, Cherokees or any other Nation have done things out of fear and want and have taken risks with other lives. It isn't ONLY the English. That has to be one of the most prejudice comments I have seen on here lately!
> 
> ...


The last paragraph of your statement, to me, speaks volumes about your character. Even though I think you & I may have a differing opinion about one of my previous posts, you have earned my respect, for whatever it's worth.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

No problem bradd. I pretty much believe I know where you're heart was coming from and what you were trying to express...which is...correct me if I'm wrong...as hunters...we should still respect the animals we hunt and should try to make as quick and as clean of a kill as possible.

I also want to add that I understand that cultures, races, genders and nations of people will have some characteristics and beliefs that can be considered common amoung each specific group of people...which can sometimes be disturbing and/or funny depending on how we want to look at it or exactly what we are talking about.

Ray


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Exactly Ray. Thanks for that!

One of the problems that we come across all the time is the association by behavior. For the most part Native Peoples are peace loving farmers or hunters/gatherers, more interested in trade than anything else. If the Nations did not have stable societies/cultures, then why would the USA copy the Iroquois system of government exactly as the Iroquois had been doing for hundreds of years before?(5 Nations Confederacy - Iroquois Great Law of Peace)

The show is content on bringing the downside to Native Peoples to the public, using outcasts of Dine society as reference. That part I didn't agree with, but it showed their point as too the gist of the program.

Yes my heart is trying to be in the right place at all times, but the mind-spirit connection gets weak sometimes.

Besides that statement, thanks for allowing me to share.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

waiting4fall said:


> The last paragraph of your statement, to me, speaks volumes about your character. Even though I think you & I may have a differing opinion about one of my previous posts, you have earned my respect, for whatever it's worth.


I truly appreciate that! I try to have respect with anyone and everyone I communicate with...even when I may disagree with them...which may at times...not come across that way...because the internet isn't the best way to communicate. It's easy to read into things or distort a person's words when you can't see their face or hear their tone.

You have always had my respect and I thoroughly enjoy your enthusiasm about our sport. I love the videos you share with us here! 

Ray


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

that a sick show. really interresting. i wish i could get my hands on some of the apche stuff. there weapons are really cool looking and i would like to collect them. but it has to be hard finding that stuff and than cost alot to get it. so yup.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

sawtoothscream said:


> that a sick show. really interresting. i wish i could get my hands on some of the apche stuff. there weapons are really cool looking and i would like to collect them. but it has to be hard finding that stuff and than cost alot to get it. so yup.


Might not be as pricey as you think.


http://www.3riversarchery.com/Primitives+Axes%2C+Hawks%2C+Knives_c13_s12_p0_thumb.html


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

waiting4fall said:


> Might not be as pricey as you think.
> 
> 
> http://www.3riversarchery.com/Primitives+Axes%2C+Hawks%2C+Knives_c13_s12_p0_thumb.html


still pricy but not bad. i want to buy a tomohawk. they are cool.


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

> My Mohawk Grandfather used to joke that when he was a kid he could run fast enough to catch up with a rabbit to feel if it was fat enough before he dispatched it. Later on he told me that I should be able to get close enough to make sure the game was big enough to feed who it was intended to feed. Also, so that I could look directly into it's eyes, or that it could hear me thank it for giving up it's life. Anything else is not hunting...but hoping. Yes, you can kill a deer with 30lbs or less IF you hunt instead of hope.


I like your Mohawk Grandfather.


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

sawtoothscream said:


> still pricy but not bad. i want to buy a tomohawk. they are cool.


'hawks are the new black in the knife world. They've experienced a renewed interest and several new models are being offered in addition to the older designs for throwing and hacking. 

I keep one by the bed since I have neighbors above, below, and beside me that I might hit with a bullet meant for an intruder. 
You do NOT want to get whacked with a 'hawk. 

They're a lot of fun to learn to use. 
In particular on this program we're discussing was the Apache's use of throwing knives. I found their style to be very interesting. That may be something worth knowing too.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

This thread took a turn towards the good that I haven't seen on here very much. Just makes me happy reading it all!


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

Me too, Kegan. 

I have a theory that most people interested in trad archery, or archery in general, are people interested in living a simpler and more honorable existence.
Sometimes we get off track. But, like this thread, sometimes it's easy to see in the other guy.


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## zillla (Feb 24, 2007)

That show is on right now.. As far as bows, I watched a documentary about a guy in northern Wyoming who made horn bow from sheep horns the same way the Sheep Eater indians made them. .. Then they shot it and chrono'ed it.. He was hittin around 165 fps with that rig and home made wood arrows, from scratch...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

zillla said:


> That show is on right now.. As far as bows, I watched a documentary about a guy in northern Wyoming who made horn bow from sheep horns the same way the Sheep Eater indians made them. .. Then they shot it and chrono'ed it.. He was hittin around 165 fps with that rig and home made wood arrows, from scratch...


Now that sounds about right. I would love to see that documentary.

Ray


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

This week it's the Samurai shooting the eyeballs out of the dummy with his longbow, against a Viking...should be good!


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## zatoichi37 (Apr 5, 2009)

bradd7 said:


> This week it's the Samurai shooting the eyeballs out of the dummy with his longbow, against a Viking...should be good!


I knew they were going to do samurai, but I couldn't figure out who they were going to pair him against. Viking is going to be really cool! I bet samurai will win because of all the training...and use of horses/bows. I hope they take the winners of every simulation and do a finale comparison to see who is best overall.


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## zillla (Feb 24, 2007)

Ray it was like 2 yeears ago I watched that on PBS.. I have no idea what the video is called. However while searching I ran accross this

http://www.pinedaleonline.com/news/2007/07/MichaelBadHandTerry.htm


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*dumb show*

This has to be the bumbest crap I've seen period. The assumptions made in this show are terrible. They make the gladiator look like a big slow footed doofus, the bow they used couldn't kill a jack rabbit.

And as far as that english quote, the greatest archery demonstration ever were the english archers standing their ground at Agincourt. They didn't sneak around shooting someone in the back, they didn't sit ontop of a horse, flinging arrows and then busting tail to get away. Nope they stood there until every shaft was buried into a French Knight. That's balls.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

It was the BEST show....EVER!!!! LOL 

Ray


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## zillla (Feb 24, 2007)

Tuecer the English won that battle because the French screwed up.. Also the terrain favored the English.. On more open ground the French should have decimated the English.. They stood their ground because if they lost all but the nobles would be put to death.. You also didn't mention all the French prisinors murdered by the English after the battle..

Now hear this: This is just a TV show and someone's rendition of what might happen..


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

waiting4fall said:


> The last paragraph of your statement, to me, speaks volumes about your character. Even though I think you & I may have a differing opinion about one of my previous posts, you have earned my respect, for whatever it's worth.



Actually, and I know you mean well by your post, but in my opinion people should be be respected till they earn your disrespect. For example, I respect YOUR OPINION even though I don't know you. That we disagree on OPINION, possibly, only means that we look at things differently.

Characterizing OPINIONS of others, on the other hand, is cause for one to be DISRESPECTED by me. 

This of course is just my OPINION... an OPINION OF ONE and belongs to me, myself, and I.

Much Aloha...  :beer:


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## Washi (Jan 23, 2005)

bradd7 said:


> My Mohawk Grandfather used to joke that when he was a kid he could run fast enough to catch up with a rabbit to feel if it was fat enough before he dispatched it. Later on he told me that I should be able to get close enough to make sure the game was big enough to feed who it was intended to feed. Also, so that I could look directly into it's eyes, or that it could hear me thank it for giving up it's life. Anything else is not hunting...but hoping. Yes, you can kill a deer with 30lbs or less IF you hunt instead of hope.


That might be only partly a joke. I know a guy who has run down rabbits and caught them.


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

Teucer said:


> This has to be the bumbest crap I've seen period. The assumptions made in this show are terrible. They make the gladiator look like a big slow footed doofus, the bow they used couldn't kill a jack rabbit.
> 
> And as far as that english quote, the greatest archery demonstration ever were the english archers standing their ground at Agincourt. They didn't sneak around shooting someone in the back, they didn't sit on top of a horse, flinging arrows and then busting tail to get away. Nope they stood there until every shaft was buried into a French Knight. That's balls.


You wanna give those Apache guys a call and let them shoot you with that bow? Didn't think so.

According to Sun Tzu, the Apaches fought in the most intelligent manner they could. There's nothing honorable about being cannon fodder.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*I'm up for it if they are*

Kraven,

Send them my way, as long as they don't mind being shot at by a 60lb Howard Hill longbow with a razor sharp broadhead. I could probably shoot through one and pass through and hit another one. :darkbeer:

And what about that apache group, at that range no less. And that penetration, come on. I'd be more afraid of the club.

Look I'm not trying to disrespect the Native Americans in any way. But that show was not in my opinion the best way they should have been represented. I'm pretty sure Apache's did not run around stabbing people in the back all day. Whereas a Gladiator had no choice, that's what he was paid or forced to do. The show is stupid. It would of been a better show if it was all about the Apache's and what they did to try and survive and the tools they used. And I'm damn sure they used a better bow than that. No freaking way the used that bow to kill serious large game.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The show is absolutely brilliant!!! 

I can't wait until they pit Smurfs against Tella Tubbies. That outta be a good one 

LOL...it's just a TV show and I think they came up with a creative and fun way of trying to figure it out. Who cares how the outcome ends up being. We all know it is ultimately the individual man who wins a fight and not the specific techinique or their heritage. Just watch MMA if you don't believe me 

Ray


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## tpoof (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm thinkin Apache would be closer to a Ninga, and a Gladiator would be closer to a Viking....  lol
The knife fighting was cool but I also agree the archery demo was somewhat lame.
tomahawks were awesome.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

It's nice that they try. I'm sure that they have screwed up many a thing in that show, but that doesn't change the fact it was fun to watch.

Anyone want to start taking bets Samurai vs. Viking?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm in...Samurai 

Ray


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## zillla (Feb 24, 2007)

Ray i contacted PBS and they told me the name of the program is "The Sheepeaters" It is a series. The bow part was the 4th in the series. The proggram is also called "Archers of the Yellowstone", and/or “Masters of the Hornbow”
. The guys name is Tom Lucas of Lander Wyoming. Here is a link to the PBS sight.. You can purchase the DVD from them.

http://wyoptv.org/programming/viewprogram.php?id=95&aid=1775


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