# Vid Of "Me Shoot'in Indian Style"..(as promised)



## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Bill, 

I used to do that type of shooting sometimes. I called it "getting charged by a bear" shooting, where you just go for it and shoot the shot as fast as you can. I haven't been doing that as much, because I've really been trying take control of my shot sequence and learn to hold/aim better (I'm self-taught, and have all kinds of little quirks as a result.)

Looks like your computer's got a pretty good hold on what's going to happen to the arrow at close range. Fun stuff, and thanks for sharing the vid.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Back up to 40+ yards and see what happens with an inconsistant anchor.............


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> Back up to 40+ yards and see what happens with an inconsistant anchor.............


well trent..i'm fairly certain we all know and that really wasn't the point..i had just mentioned how amazed i was at checking out what could only be described as an example of instinctive snap shooting..here's one that ain't far from it..the only difs being i was at 15 yds and pulling 54#s to the corner of my mouth...and btw...i'm point on at 40yds withe the 46# limbs but not snapping ***** style! :laugh:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I hope Mr. Jenkins cashed your check.

:wink:

KPC


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Which way do you shoot better, formal or whatever this is...? :wink:


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

Is this what the 21 days of BLANK BAIL shooting got ya ? lol.....I bet if Rod Jenkins saw this he'd be scratchin' his head...lol


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Easykeeper said:


> Which way do you shoot better, formal or whatever this is...? :wink:


You should have your own clinic!


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## c-lo (Jan 8, 2012)

Enjoyed it, thanks for posting.


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## jmrsyrs (Jan 5, 2007)

Good shooting. Enjoyed the videos.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm offended! I am Cherokee and we are gappers. I don't know why you assume we wouldn't use good form to put meat on the coals. Stereotyping gone wild!!!


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

well played Jimmy !


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

The bow sure is controlling you.


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## cwanty03 (Feb 10, 2010)

Nice! Better than me trying!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I'm offended! I am Cherokee and we are gappers. I don't know why you assume we wouldn't use good form to put meat on the coals. Stereotyping gone wild!!!


Hold on there Jim..you mean to tell me that while at a full gallop....riding bareback...and drawing back on a 2,000lb critter that was also moving at a stampede rate of speed from about 10 feet away..ya'll were gapping? :laugh:

and now i'm offended!..cause what exactly is wrong with my form?...can't my form just be a different form?...

of archery? :laugh:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Snapshooting is not new, or different. It's a form of anxiety.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I am Cherokee and we are gappers. I don't know why you assume we wouldn't use good form to put meat on the coals. Stereotyping gone wild!!!


LOL...me too..but I can do more than just Gap :wink:

Matter of fact...not all 'indians' used a floating anchor either :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Hold on there Jim..you mean to tell me that while at a full gallop....riding bareback...and drawing back on a 2,000lb critter that was also moving at a stampede rate of speed from about 10 feet away..ya'll were gapping? :laugh:


Not all of our ancestors rode horses.

Research the Cherokees and their technique...and I'm sure you would be surprised :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

There you go again. We Cherokee's didn't gallop across the planes on horses shooting at Tatonka. When we went west it wasn't a happy hunt. We hunted whitetails, squirrels, rabbits, black bears eastern style. Don't you know we built the first treestands? We hid in big cedar tress and aimed low because we understood the effects of gravity on the parabolic curve of a projectile launched from a sinew backed hickory selfbow. 

By the way, I didn't say anything was wrong with your form. I'm just protecting the reputation of my kin.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Hey Jinkster,

Can you tell me the differences in how you aim this way when compared to your other way?

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> The bow sure is controlling you.


well moose?..seems i'm not alone cause....it's controlling those arrows pretty good as well..and if you think my bow is "controlling"?...you should read some of this oh so strict form stuff going on where folks are controlling other folks to stay within this oh so intsey tinsey box that they dare not step out of..now "that's" controlling! :laugh:

Okay! Everbody!...SING ALONG!!!!!

I'mmmmm The Mannnnn...IN THE BOX! :laugh:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Hey Jinkster,
> 
> Can you tell me the differences in how you aim this way when compared to your other way?
> 
> Ray :shade:


yep...."none"


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

JINKSTER said:


> well moose?..seems i'm not alone cause....it's controlling those arrows pretty good as well..and if you think my bow is "controlling"?...you should read some of this oh so strict form stuff going on where folks are controlling other folks to stay within this oh so intsey tinsey box that they dare not step out of..now "that's" controlling! :laugh:
> 
> Okay! Everbody!...SING ALONG!!!!!
> 
> I'mmmmm The Mannnnn...IN THE BOX! :laugh:


15 yards is what it is..I am stating what I see. If 15 yards is all you are ever gonna shoot, in your own backyard, then have fun. There are no snapshooting champions..if that was even your original goal. (Which I assumed because you attended Rod's class) Those people who put their time in and follow like sheep, as you implied, have all the titles..while G Fred has none.
It's not my intention to put anyone down, including you or G Fred. If Disciplined (read not overbowed and follow what works on a championship level) archers who can control their shots are sheep, much like Rod does, I will gladly join the flock. You want instant gratification..so you go back to what's comfortable and familiar (Snapshooting) and too much weight. You couldn't stick to the plan laid out because it required you to step out of your comfort zone. Reverting back to your familiar habits are much like a box you can't see.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

thanks for taking the time to make the vids for us, it sure is nice to see how others do it, i def have learned a few things from watching others shoot


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

PS Here is a challenge..draw your bow facing opposite of the target then swing around and release immediately when the target comes into view and see what happens.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> PS Here is a challenge..draw your bow facing opposite of the target then swing around and release immediateyl when the target comes into view and see what happens.


Mo0se,

You may already realize this which is why you might have asked the question...but one of the tricks to being able to shoot as accurately as Jinkster did at the target has ALOT to do with muscle/motor memory from shooting from the same distance, the same position and at the same target.

I would like to see how he does shooting at different targets at different distances that vary by 5yrds. or more while shooting as quickly as he was.

Ray :shade:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Mo0se,
> 
> You may already realize this which is why you might have asked the question...but one of the tricks to being able to shoot as accurately as Jinkster did at the target has ALOT to do with muscle/motor memory from shooting from the same distance, the same position and at the same target.
> 
> ...


I do..there is no instinctive, I vote it the most misued and misunderstood word in the world of archery. I have even more bad news..there is no tooth fairy either.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> The bow sure is controlling you.





Mo0se said:


> Snapshooting is not new, or different. It's a form of anxiety.





BLACK WOLF said:


> Mo0se,
> 
> You may already realize this which is why you might have asked the question...but one of the tricks to being able to shoot as accurately as Jinkster did at the target has ALOT to do with muscle/motor memory from shooting from the same distance, the same position and at the same target.
> 
> ...


hmmm..."Tactical Archery"...i like it..maybe we'll see...soon.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> I do..there is no instinctive, I vote it the most misued word in the world of archery. I have even more bad news..there is no tooth fairy either.


man...did you just mess up. :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> I do..there is no instinctive, I vote it the most misued word in the world of archery. I have even more bad news..there is no tooth fairy either.
> 
> Muscle memory for the win.


You're probably the same guy who will tell us that a beautiful woman is not 'hot' because her tempreture needs to exceed 98.6 deg. before we can use that word to describe her :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Rod Savini (Nov 23, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> Now i was only at just a hair over 10yds..maybe 11-12 and doing just about everything wrong that one could do wrong shooting a bow but still...my stringhand was a good 4-5"s away from my face ala "floating anchor" with a healthy cant on the bow...and i might presume i was aiming at a sub-conscious level..and the human mind is an amazing computer when left to it's own..all touchy, feely snap shoot'in..kinda ***** style..like i did when i was a kid...hope ya'll enjoy, Bill. :cool2:


Dang you are good!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You're probably the same guy who will tell us that a beautiful woman is not 'hot' because her tempreture needs to exceed 98.6 deg. before we can use that word to describe her :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Analytical to a fault sir.  

Per Wikipedia:

Analytical skill is the ability to visualize, articulate, and solve both complex and uncomplicated problems and concepts and make decisions that are sensical based on available information. Such skills include demonstration of the ability to apply logical thinking to gathering and analyzing information, designing and testing solutions to problems, and formulating plans.

I've also learned this..no matter how "Hot" she may appear, somewhere, somebody, is tired of her bs.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> Analytical to a fault sir.


Well...no wonder why you don't believe there's no such thing as Instinctive Aiming. You're a left brain thinker and can't seem to comprehend how an archer can shoot an arrow without deliberately using an aiming reference other than just the target while using the right side of their brain or more acurately....letting certain functions of hand and eye coordination to be mediated below the conscious level of awareness :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Well...no wonder why you don't believe there's no such thing as Instinctive Aiming. You're a left brain thinker and can't seem to comprehend how an archer can shoot an arrow without deliberately using an aiming reference other than just the target :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


The difference is how you explain it..that's all..I could misuse the word in my own shooting, I've gapped so long, it's become instinctive. Well the truth behind that is my body remembers through repitition, based on a complete sight picture, while not focusing on the the end of the arrow at all. It's completely repeatable..just like anything else you've trained your body to do. It's good thing we remember how to wipe properly, because we can't see it.  If you watch my video again you will see that I do not in fact, glance down at the arrow at all. My focus is on the target, the rest is peripheral. Or my gapping has evolved, in the simplest terms, but it's still gapping. 

I don't have to be right, it's just my opinion.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

_"I shot an arrow into the air, It fell to earth, I knew not where;"._...because I didn't aim.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> The difference is how you explain it..that's all.


There's more to it than JUST that. Instinctive Aiming is NOT the exact same thing as Gap Aiming...just as Gap Aiming is NOT the exact same thing as Point of Aim.



Mo0se said:


> If you watch my video again you will see that I do not in fact, glance down at the arrow at all. My focus is on the target, the rest is peripheral. Or my gapping has evolved, in the simplest terms, but it's still gapping.


You're basically doing exactly what every seasoned Gap shooter does including me...BUT...that is NOT exactly the same thing when an archer is truly aiming TOTALLY Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

windwalker said:


> _"i shot an arrow into the air, it fell to earth, i knew not where;"._...because i didn't aim...at a subconscious level.


:laugh:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Can we meet in the middle and rename it reactionary? lol 

We can agree to disagree..and move on..


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

Lay off the ol' Jinkster. He's having fun. Sure we all want to get better at this. But not all of us have goals. Not all of us have the real intent or discipline to actually become better. If he wants to get busy throwing away the gift that his family got for him, that's his business.
BTW MoOse is right, technically. Anything that takes years of practice to achieve can't be "instinctive." BY DEFINITION. Its just an unfortunate misuse of the word. It has nothing to do with how one does or does not aim, its just a misnomer.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> "i shot an arrow into the air, it fell to earth, i knew not where;"....because i didn't aim...at a subconscious level.


rotflmbo!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> Can we meet in the middle and rename it reactionary? lol


told ya...ya messed up. :laugh:



Charon said:


> Lay off the ol' Jinkster. He's having fun. Sure we all want to get better at this. But not all of us have goals. Not all of us have the real intent or discipline to actually become better. If he wants to get busy throwing away the gift that his family got for him, that's his business.
> BTW MoOse is right, technically. Anything that takes years of practice to achieve can't be "instinctive." BY DEFINITION. Its just an unfortunate misuse of the word. It has nothing to do with how one does or does not aim, its just a misnomer.


and then we have your garden variety "passive/aggressives" out there. :laugh:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

WindWalker said:


> rotflmbo!


semper fi baby...semper fi.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Charon said:


> Anything that takes years of practice to achieve can't be "instinctive." BY DEFINITION. Its just an unfortunate misuse of the word. It has nothing to do with how one does or does not aim, its just a misnomer.


Honest questions.

Why do you and a few others keep on ignoring part of definition for Instinct/Instinctive?

What and how is a reflex action mediated when an archer is ONLY consciously concentrating on a flying disk as they swing their bow up in an attempt to shoot the disk?

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Honest questions.
> 
> Why do you and a few others keep on ignoring part of definition for Instinct/Instinctive?
> 
> ...


and how come The Sundance Kid couldn't shoot fer crap until he asked.."Can I Move?" :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> and how come The Sundance Kid couldn't shoot fer crap until he asked.."Can I Move?" :laugh:


LOL...I don't know that specific story...but if I had to guess...he probably had to move because the target was out of his range or not in a psoition that he was used to shooting.

Ray :shade:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Honest questions.
> 
> Why do you and a few others keep on ignoring part of definition for Instinct/Instinctive?
> 
> ...


It's not a secret or a mystery...ocular input + motor skill coordination. It's the same reason we can point to anything at will.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

JINKSTER said:


> told ya...ya messed up. :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> and then we have your garden variety "passive/aggressives" out there. :laugh:


Can't seem to understand where I messed up? Could you fill me in?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> It's not a secret or a mystery...ocular input + motor skill coordination. It's the same reason we can point to anything at will.


OK...now we're getting somewhere....and an honest thank you for NOT becoming a victim because we're having a disgreement while debatting this!

Now...how is the motor skill mediated when aiming totally Instinctively?

And I'm still curious why your ignoring part of the definition to Instinct/Instinctive?

Ray :shade:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Honest questions.
> 
> Why do you and a few others keep on ignoring part of definition for Instinct/Instinctive?
> 
> ...


You are seperating archery from standard motor skills we use everyday..like i stated earlier, the ability to point to anything instantly at will. Not to mention the proximity of the arrow to our index finger we use to point with.  Call it whatever you like, shoot however you want, but don't get offended at misused words applied as definitions.


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

in·stinct1    /ˈɪnstɪŋkt/ Show Spelled[in-stingkt] Show IPA 
noun 
1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species. 
2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency. 
3. a natural aptitude or gift: an instinct for making money. 
4. natural intuitive power

What part are we missing? Instincts don't require practice.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

is she gapping?..or snort'in a big o'le line of pixie dust? :laugh:

http://youtu.be/qzUCMKiBAAU


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> You are seperating archery from standard motor skills we use everyday..like i stated earlier, the ability to point to anything instantly at will. Not to mention the proximity of the arrow to our index finger we use to point with.  Call it whatever you like, shoot however you want, but don't get offended at misused words applied as definitions.


I'm far from getting offended...but as far as I can tell...you still haven't answered my questions.

Yes...archery involves motor skills in similar ways we use everyday....but how does it apply to aiming TOTALLY Instinctive which is different than an archer using Gap Aiming?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Charon said:


> 2. a *natural* or innate impulse, *inclination*, or *tendency*.
> 3. *a natural aptitude or gift*: an instinct for making money.
> 4. natural *intuitive* power
> 
> What part are we missing? Instincts don't require practice.


There's nothing in the definition of instinct that says that practice can't be involved except in definition #1. which states that it's inborn.

Can an action become natural for an athlete. Can a football player throw a ball naturally?

What's the definitions for 'inclanation, tendency or intuitive'?

The Webster's definition also includes these.

1: a *natural* or inherent aptitude, *impulse*, or capacity <*had an instinct for the right word*> 
2b : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level 

And...here are some phrases they use the word in for examples.

had an instinct for the right word
He has been guided throughout his career by his political instincts.
an athlete with good instincts

How does a person have an instinct for the right word when language is learned?

We aren't born with political knowledge...so how does it become an instinct?

What does it mean for an athlete to have good instincts and how did they go about getting them?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

It should be becoming clear...that if a person JUST focuses on one part of a word's definition...than they will have convinced themselves there is no way an archer can be aiming Instinctively...BUT...if you look at the other words and phrases used to define and describe the word Instinct/Instinctive..it should also become clear how the word *CAN* apply to an aiming technique!

The fact is...Instinctive Aiming exists based on the evidence and usuage of the word given by dictionaries...and it's NOT exactly the same thing as Gap Aiming.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

It just shows why in IBO why you see so many people shoot this style, 10 to 20 yards you can get away with quite alot form wise. Looking at video's from IBO worlds I didn't see any of the top shooters using that style and you wont either in IFAA Field/3D, you just would not hit anything consistently past 30y with that shooting method.

It is FUN to do and gives you some feedback and understanding on what you can get away with and still make an accurate shot (sometimes :wink,one thing that concerns me with your shooting is on *all* these videos youre always shooting the same target from same angle/position, just like muscle memory you kinda get target memory also and when you walk away from that target and shoot something different like a bedded 3D deer you likely wont feel so relaxed/confident. if your not doing it already, you really need to mix up your practice to prepare for any shoot situation. :thumbs_up

It's human nature to do things the easy way, you obviously doing very well on that target at those distances,if you really want develop your shooting up to another level you need make things more challenging again, make target smaller, increase distances/angles etc.:thumbs_up


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

Nice shootin Man!! scout4


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> is she gapping?..or snort'in a big o'le line of pixie dust? :laugh:
> 
> http://youtu.be/qzUCMKiBAAU


I'd disappointed that the thread departed from our Indian discussion but most do here. Now to this young lady. She is performing a trick shot. She is using "pick a point" as her aiming method. She has practiced how to line up certain things with her feet to know where the arrow will impact when she shoots it. She doesn't even need to know there is a target out there. Her job is to put everything where it is supposed to be and then let the arrow go. It will go where it needs to if she does that. She looks up at the bottom tip of the limb. I'd say she is using the lower limb tip as the sight.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> and how come The Sundance Kid couldn't shoot fer crap until he asked.."Can I Move?" :laugh:


Because The Sundance Kid was a fictional character in a movie.

:wink:


Speaking of movies, I think we've all seen this one before. 

JINKS posts a video for all to see. 

People respond, some positive...some negative. 

JINKS thanks the positive responders, argues arrogantly and cynically with the negative responders.

Becuase of this attitude, at some point the responses turn overwhelmingly negative, and the positive responders fade away.

Realizing what just transpired (again), JINKS then falls on his sword, blames his behavior on work related stress and addiction struggles in the past, and begs forgiveness.

Stay tuned for the sequel...

to the sequel...

to the sequel.

:thumb:

Hey, as long as your're having fun, I guess that's all that matters.

KPC


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Because The Sundance Kid was a fictional character in a movie.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> ...


I knew I wasn't the only one with deja vu, lol


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Well...no wonder why you don't believe there's no such thing as Instinctive Aiming. You're a left brain thinker and can't seem to comprehend how an archer can shoot an arrow without deliberately using an aiming reference other than just the target while using the right side of their brain or more acurately....letting certain functions of hand and eye coordination to be mediated below the conscious level of awareness :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


That explains why I have problems with archery.......since I'm an artist, I use the right side of my brain which is the creative side. The left side of the brain is the analytical side and I've trained my grey matter to be more creative and that is not what makes for a consistant, repeatable, logical form. I want to do something different subconsiously with every shot and not just the same old repeatable rhythmical form that produces Xring results.........now I get it!:wink:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Now we can talk some archery. You actually use both sides of your brain. That analytical left side is in charge of the shot process. If you go through the rudiments of training yourself to execute a repeatable shot sequence then your left brain can do this without your supervision. You let it run the shot because you have executed the same shot over 10,000 times. This is why a repeatable shot sequence is so important....vs. ....I'll snap shoot today and shoot right tomorrow or use a "variable anchor." That artsy right side is now in charge of aiming. Use it and TRUST the left side to do it's job. If you trust and execute you will find success. If you second guess and allow your right side to check up on your left side during the shot then you'll find the boogie man aka. Target Panic.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> That explains why I have problems with archery.......since I'm an artist, I use the right side of my brain which is the creative side. The left side of the brain is the analytical side and I've trained my grey matter to be more creative and that is not what makes for a consistant, repeatable, logical form. I want to do something different subconsiously with every shot and not just the same old repeatable rhythmical form that produces Xring results.........now I get it!:wink:


The problem really isn't whether a person is left or right brained or analytical or creative. It's when there's a battle between the 2 that causes problems. When this happens there's usually a lack of faith or doubt that can set in.

It's how a person can overcome or not overcome this that will usually determine the outcome.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> You actually use both sides of your brain.


And depending on your personality...most people will have a tendency to use one side more than the other.



Jimmy Blackmon said:


> That analytical left side is in charge of the shot process.


For some people...Yes...for others...No. Again it's dependent upon the archer, their personality and often how they have trained.



Jimmy Blackmon said:


> If you go through the rudiments of training yourself to execute a repeatable shot sequence then your left brain can do this without your supervision. You let it run the shot because you have executed the same shot over 10,000 times. This is why a repeatable shot sequence is so important....vs. ....I'll snap shoot today and shoot right tomorrow or use a "variable anchor." That artsy right side is now in charge of aiming. Use it and TRUST the left side to do it's job. If you trust and execute you will find success. If you second guess and allow your right side to check up on your left side during the shot then you'll find the boogie man aka. Target Panic.


Now I may have misunderstood you in the first couple quotes I responded to because...this long quote pretty much sums it up. I TOTALLY agree with this!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It should be becoming clear...that if a person JUST focuses on one part of a word's definition...than they will have convinced themselves there is no way an archer can be aiming Instinctively...BUT...if you look at the other words and phrases used to define and describe the word Instinct/Instinctive..it should also become clear how the word *CAN* apply to an aiming technique!
> 
> 
> Ray :shade:


Yes...you are correct in this statement Ray...but...if you utilize the way that dictionary or most others correctly...then ranking in numerical order is the only proper way..thus the primary accepted usage of the word resides with it's first example/definition ..and is antecedent in nature ie...before all of the other listed meanings..:wink::wink::wink:




> The fact is...Instinctive Aiming exists based on the evidence and usuage of the word given by dictionaries...and it's NOT exactly the same thing as Gap Aiming.


I disagree...there is nothing instinctual about shooting a bow and no such evidence exist to prove there is....therefore..the very usage of the word instinctual is wrong to describe how it is done....at the end of the day..it is still a learned response..therefore not instinctual in nature....and only those out to prove or sell something take offense to anyone saying such...The word instinctual aiming is a layman's word..or a slang if you prefer... and truthfully...should never ever been associated with the sport..but someone somewhere elected to take something that was "likened" to a instinct..and call it such and has corrupted the words true meaning..

The method everyone uses and what is called "instinctual aiming " is really nothing other than point shooting ....and was taught and in a couple different variants...still is used for some weapons training in the our military..and in many others military as well and it has nothing to do with the arrows point..It's about picking a spot (point) and shooting it with out the aid of any sights..the only difference is we are using a bow..not a pistol or rifle to accomplish this..Gap shooting as well as all other methods..are totally different since you are purposely using something for a sight..That doesn't sound as nice or catchy I know..but..it is what it really is..

If you look up point shooting..you will see exactly what I mean..and this is not to be confused with the newer " threat response shooting " or the old way of teaching folks how to shoot a 45 semi auto by pointing a finger along side..but how they taught with a rifle sans all sights..and a pistol sans all sights..using a single projectile and shooting by just picking a spot...and doing it repeatedly and reducing the target size over time as the persons abilities improved 

Mac


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## fnds (Dec 2, 2010)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Now we can talk some archery. You actually use both sides of your brain. That analytical left side is in charge of the shot process. If you go through the rudiments of training yourself to execute a repeatable shot sequence then your left brain can do this without your supervision. You let it run the shot because you have executed the same shot over 10,000 times. This is why a repeatable shot sequence is so important....vs. ....I'll snap shoot today and shoot right tomorrow or use a "variable anchor." That artsy right side is now in charge of aiming. Use it and TRUST the left side to do it's job. If you trust and execute you will find success. If you second guess and allow your right side to check up on your left side during the shot then you'll find the boogie man aka. Target Panic.


This post has a great explanation about how the two sides interact:

http://www.archery-forum.com/showth...aching-Secrets&p=337404&viewfull=1#post337404


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Jinks - what ever puts a smile on your face at the end of the day is good form to me.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Yes...you are correct in this statement Ray...but...if you utilize the way that dictionary or most others correctly...then ranking in numerical order is the only proper way..thus the primary accepted usage of the word resides with it's first example/definition ..and is antecedent in nature ie...before all of the other listed meanings..:wink::wink::wink:


Than...I guess it depends on what dictionary one uses.

Webster's Dictionary's first definition is this:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/instinct

1: a *natural* or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity <*had an instinct for the right word*> 

Again...there's nothing that says 'natural' has to be inborn. They even go on to use the word to explain how a person can have an instinct with an ability such as language that is learned.



MAC 11700 said:


> there is nothing instinctual about shooting a bow and no such evidence exist to prove there is....therefore..the very usage of the word instinctual is wrong to describe how it is done....at the end of the day.


Again...at the end of the day...it comes down to semantics for some people...whether you want to believe the evidence I provided or just get hung up on one part of the definition.

I'm not sure how anyone can refute the evidence I'm sharing...unless they are just stubborn. I'm not making these definitions up. I didn't write or publish any dictionary...but I am providing the evidence that there *IS MORE* to the word instinct than it *JUST* being something inborn.

Times change...and so does the meaning of words. Just because most of us were taught in highschool that instinct was something that was inborn...does NOT mean that's the only way the word can and should be used.

It's like some people want to continue believing the world is flat...when there is evidence that is provide or shared to prove otherwise.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

fnds said:


> This post has a great explanation about how the two sides interact:
> 
> http://www.archery-forum.com/showth...aching-Secrets&p=337404&viewfull=1#post337404


Great link!!!!

Thanks for sharing that! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

The more I read all this intellectual rendering about shooting a bow the more comical it gets.......can you imagine back in the days the Indians and barbarians analyzing their archery ability with all this talk of instinctive, subconscious and which side of their brain they are using......it just hit me as astronomically funny!

Ugh........Geronimo, when you draw back your selfmade bow there, do you use the gap system or do you shoot instinctive by using the analytical side of you brain?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> Jinks - what ever puts a smile on your face at the end of the day is good form to me.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> The more I read all this intellectual rendering about shooting a bow the more comical it gets.......can you imagine back in the days the Indians and barbarians analyzing their archery ability with all this talk of instinctive, subconscious and which side of their brain they are using......it just hit me as astronomically funny!
> 
> Ugh........Geronimo, when you draw back your selfmade bow there, do you use the gap system or do you shoot instinctive by using the analytical side of you brain?


Even back then...different personalities existed...but I can definitely relate to the humor you see in it.

If you read Conan the Barbarian...he was more than just a big brawly meathead. Even though he's a fictional character...he was decribed as being very smart and was probably what we call today a whole brain thinker...where he could use both sides of his brain equally well at the same time. Men like Einstein, top athletes and many musicians are whole brain thinkers. People like that did exist before the 20th. century :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Even back then...different personalities existed...but I can definitely relate to the humor you see in it.
> 
> If you read Conan the Barbarian...he was more than just a big brawly meathead. Even though he's a fictional character...he was decribed as being very smart and was probably what we call today a whole brain thinker...where he could use both sides of his brain equally well at the same time. Men like Einstein, top athletes and many musicians are whole brain thinkers. People like that did exist before the 20th. century :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray.......Oh, I know there were very intelligent folks back then and we don't have any history written down that I'm aware of that relates to how the grown-ups taught their children to shoot the bow. Heck, in a Sioux village, there might have been an excellant archer that taught the youngsters how to shoot just the way we shoot instinctive. If there are any books on how Persian archers were taught or the slow to realize the importance of archery Romans, I'm not educated with or aware of........


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> If there are any books on how Persian archers were taught or the slow to realize the importance of archery Romans, I'm not educated with or aware of........


I'm not aware of any either. I just know that we are really no different than our ancestors...except we may have more gadjets and a more technical understanding of some things.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Now we can talk some archery. You actually use both sides of your brain. That analytical left side is in charge of the shot process. If you go through the rudiments of training yourself to execute a repeatable shot sequence then your left brain can do this without your supervision. You let it run the shot because you have executed the same shot over 10,000 times. This is why a repeatable shot sequence is so important....vs. ....I'll snap shoot today and shoot right tomorrow or use a "variable anchor." That artsy right side is now in charge of aiming. Use it and TRUST the left side to do it's job. If you trust and execute you will find success. If you second guess and allow your right side to check up on your left side during the shot then you'll find the boogie man aka. Target Panic.



We don't want to talk archery,we want to talk brains dammit. And if we are still alive then, we can get back on the subject of archery. BUT, I hafta warn ya,it could be a few years.
We just gotta get these brains figured out first.:BangHead:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rembrandt said:


> The more I read all this intellectual rendering about shooting a bow the more comical it gets.......can you imagine back in the days the Indians and barbarians analyzing their archery ability with all this talk of instinctive, subconscious and which side of their brain they are using......it just hit me as astronomically funny!
> 
> Ugh........Geronimo, when you draw back your selfmade bow there, do you use the gap system or do you shoot instinctive by using the analytical side of you brain?




Thank you, now I don't feel so lonely.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Well...no wonder why you don't believe there's no such thing as Instinctive Aiming. You're a left brain thinker and can't seem to comprehend how an archer can shoot an arrow without deliberately using an aiming reference other than just the target while using the right side of their brain or more acurately....letting certain functions of hand and eye coordination to be mediated below the conscious level of awareness :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:



Jou are my hero today!!! I don't know where that other character is,don't care, today it's jou.:angel:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I think my brain is gonna explode after reading all that great stuff...both sides..and who'd of thunk it?...all this gap vs instinctive was just a war of misunderstanding between the leftys, and the rightys ...wonder if there's a similar correlation between dems and pubs! LOL!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> I think my brain is gonna explode after reading all that great stuff...both sides..and who'd of thunk it?...all this gap vs instinctive was just a war of misunderstanding between the leftys, and the rightys ...wonder if there's a similar correlation between dems and pubs! LOL!



You're probably right on both. But, both are entertaining and really not much more.

BTW jinkster, I enjoyed the video. There are quite a few people who can shoot like that and be very accurate, just like the guy shooting beetles with his slingshot. I think the whole issue boils down to objectives. Those who are mainly interested in archery for hunting purposes (minority around here) tend to like the uncomplicated method better. Does not mean in any way that they don't shoot well,just different. Those who are into shooting paper or foam targets seem to prefer the more complicated methods. Maybe under those conditions that way is more accurate. I know that if I just wanted to shoot spots on a wall at 20yds it would be pretty easy to set up equipment for just that and point the arrow at a predetermined spot and kill the X. Kind of a no brainer. In the woods you'll play hell finding a shot opportunity where you can hold the bow straight up,maintain that perfect form,sight down the arrow to a spot on the ground and be sure to execute your wonderfully smooth release.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> OK...now we're getting somewhere....and an honest thank you for NOT becoming a victim because we're having a disgreement while debatting this!
> 
> Now...how is the motor skill mediated when aiming totally Instinctively?
> 
> ...


I'm simply discussing..not pointing fingers.. I'm not ignoring it, but based on that line of thinking, if you want to read the entire definition then there would be no need for practice..we would all be equal given the same motor skill abilities. If you have to practice..it's not instinctual. Instinct to me is.. Ok look a rattlesnake, my instinct tells me to leave it alone. It would be against my instinct to run into a burning house. Or, look a cliff..should I jump off? Survival instincts I believe in..the rest as it relates to archery does not hold water in my world. *Innate* natural ability~ implies no practice is needed. 
i
n·nate[ i náyt ]ADJECTIVE 
1. present from birth: relating to qualities that a person or animal is born with
2. integral: forming an integral part of something
3. coming from mind: coming directly from the mind rather than being acquired by experience or from external sources
"an innate sense of justice" 

Thanks to everyone for sharing their opinions without taking offense or, thanks for polite convgersation.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> You're probably right on both. But, both are entertaining and really not much more.
> 
> BTW jinkster, I enjoyed the video. There are quite a few people who can shoot like that and be very accurate, just like the guy shooting beetles with his slingshot. I think the whole issue boils down to objectives. Those who are mainly interested in archery for hunting purposes (minority around here) tend to like the uncomplicated method better. Does not mean in any way that they don't shoot well,just different. Those who are into shooting paper or foam mitargets seem to prefer the more complicated methods. Maybe under those conditions that way is more accurate. I know that if I just wanted to shoot spots on a wall at 20yds it would be pretty easy to set up equipment for just that and point the arrow at a predetermined spot and kill the X. Kind of a no brainer. In the woods you'll play hell finding a shot opportunity where you can hold the bow straight up,maintain that perfect form,sight down the arrow to a spot on the ground and be sure to execute your wonderfully smooth release.


Well said Forest...I usta do quite a bit of stalking as a younger man and the experience of unexpectedly jumping a buck is something I believe many heret have the not experienced...as of the dozen or so times I have?...I only got arrows off twice and missed cause I took too long and what could've been a 10yd broadside snap shot turned into a 30yd on the run miss...In like 2 seconds...nothing like a paper target dangling motionless.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> based on that line of thinking, if you want to read the entire definition then there would be no need for practice..we would all be equal given the same motor skill abilities. If you have to practice..it's not instinctual. Instinct to me is.. *Innate* natural ability~ implies no practice is needed.
> i
> n·nate[ i náyt ]ADJECTIVE
> 1. present from birth: relating to qualities that a person or animal is born with
> ...


This is EXACTLY why some archers can aim Instinctively better than others. Because they have been genetically gifted with better hand and eye coordination than others. 

A natural ability can be improved upon. True or False?

Ray :shade:


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

I've taken a pass on most of this thread, as I felt like it was taking something done lightheartedly and sucking all the fun right out of it. That said, here are a few thoughts I have on the subject.

1) Given enough time, anything can be learned to a level of expertise, even with pure trial and error. Learning from someone else who has already figured out what works and what doesn't has happened since the dawn of man. At the same time, what works for a given person may not be the only solution for everyone. Thus, though many paths tend to converge, there are alternatives that may merit study outside whatever orthodoxy is present in a school of thought.

2) Any human endeavor, and a particular individual's success at that endeavor, is dictated by several factors. The first is natural aptitude. The second is experience. The third is technique. The fourth (and a large one, where archery is involved) is mental confidence, focus, and concentration. Everything can be improved, except the first one. You have to live in your own body, with whatever advantages and shortfalls it has. I don't think anyone can argue that experience (practice) is helpful and necessary. Technique is what we're talking about here, I think. Is there a "best way"? For maximum precision, especially at long ranges, there are certainly principles that are highly beneficial. The technique that Bill was using in his video, while going against some of those principles, could be viable for some circumstances, much like shooting from the hip with a pistol might be useful. Neither technique is going to be ideal for shooting groups at 25 yards or something, but sometimes fast is more important than precise.

3) The Romans were mentioned. Here's a great example of technique holding back progress, as most Romans were known to be poor archers, as they drew to the chest rather than the face (according to my research, others may have other thoughts on the matter).

4) I was considering all the discussions and arguments about shooting methods yesterday, as I shot until the night descended. It occurred to me that we frequently overcomplicate our favorite activities, burdening them with all kinds of psychic baggage that might serve very little purpose in the end. I encourage all the deep inquiry into how we shoot and why. We love it, and we have to cut it up and see how it works inside. There are times, though, when we have to let that go, and remember that it's just drawing back the string and loosing the arrow. In the end, after all the practice and study, if we're doing anything but that, we're getting in our own way.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

JINKSTER......Enjoyed your 1st video. That type of shooting looked alot like the style we used when shooting running bunnies years ago. Was alot of fun.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Than...I guess it depends on what dictionary one uses.
> 
> Webster's Dictionary's first definition is this:
> 
> ...


Please Ray...that is about the lamest excuse for a a argument I have ever seen you use..

Do we now have to get into what is a natural ability vs a learned one...or even the possibility of being able to inherit aptitude...Give me a break..Evidence you say...sorry...if some loosely defined out of context definition is your "proof" I wouldn't try to try win any court case with it..because you will loose.. 

Your wrong again...what we were taught in high school is still relevant today...just as much as it was back then...You should have dug a little deeper than 1 page..and looked a little further down on the page for a discussion of the usage of the word Natural ..and inherited aptitude meant..or else where since 1 of those phrases is not discussed completely



> Synonym Discussion of NATURAL
> *natural, ingenuous, naive, unsophisticated, artless mean free from pretension or calculation. natural implies lacking artificiality and self-consciousness and having a spontaneousness suggesting the natural rather than the man-made world* .


For sematics...one could argue the meaning of inherent aptitude..based solely on Miriam definition..since they introduced a "habit"..but them we could go much further down the rabbit hole and spin this off in about a 100 different ways...but since they don't give a clear definition of the word..one needs to look a little further..their definition of part of the word...



> Definition of INHERENT
> : involved in the constitution or essential character of something :* belonging by nature or habit* : intrinsic <risks inherent in the venture>


Now...if we actually seek out what is meant by the phrase inherent aptitude..it doesn't take much to find it...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inherent+aptitude



> Noun	1.	inherent aptitude - *inborn pattern of behavior* often responsive to specific stimuli; "the spawning instinct in salmon"; "altruistic instincts in social animals


But why...? Instincts are innate nothing has changed from the time I was in high school till now..and yes..a few individuals can control certain ones to some intent..but...only with much conscious effort..Big deal..there is no "proof" in this angle of your arguments either...

Shooting a bow is a learned skill..some on this planet do have better natural abilities than others..of this there is no doubt...but all who are mortal and choose to..LEARN to shoot it..*No one is born with this ability only the ability to do things better than others..*

BTW...why hasn't someone used the word for it's medical purposes here from your same source...hmmm ? 



> Definition of INSTINCTUAL
> *: of, relating to, or based on instincts* <instinctual behavior> <the instinctual society of social insects>


Our language is filled with often misused and misunderstood words...and that sure as hell does not make it correct to continue using them wrong just because every else does..We may accept and even understand what is meant when they are used..but being descriptive and using them as accepted does not make it physically correct..further..to say this is proof in any shape of form is not correct and proper.It amazes me how some here love to take the true meaning of a word..and spin it off into something else..or use a given definition out of context for it's most accepted meaning..that is the way slang works in our language.. 



Continue arguing about it if you choose to( and I know full well you will...it is inevitable ) ..but...to me it is total waste of effort to do so any longer..Learn how to use the dictionary and the other publications correctly..and this won't really be a issue any longer..

Mac


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Charon said:


> in·stinct1    /ˈɪnstɪŋkt/ Show Spelled[in-stingkt] Show IPA
> noun
> 1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.
> 2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.
> ...


True. That's why walking can never be called instinctive. But, 'instinctive' shooting has a nicer ring that "unconscious target-oriented aiming technique", so I let it slide.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)




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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Now we can talk some archery... If you trust and execute you will find success. If you second guess and allow your right side to check up on your left side during the shot then you'll find the boogie man aka. Target Panic.


This is a really good comment, whether you want to let the left or right or new age part of the brain drive. In trying to learn the gapping aim method, I've noticed that what is the most reliable cause of disaster, whether i'm going "instictive-like" or using gapping, is to second guess what's going on during the shot. If I wonder, I start thinking, I get distracted, and the arrow becomes a secondary priority to what's for lunch.

I'd like to practice gapping well enough to make it automatic, and learning it, sometimes there's a temporary set back, because I'm holding the arrow at full draw, trying to remember where the point is supposed to be in relation to the target for a given distance. Until I get better, with practice, it can sometimes throw off my rhythm. Under 20 yards, I seem to be better off just knowing where my arrow is in the periphery, looking at the target, and zoning out.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> This is EXACTLY why some archers can aim Instinctively better than others. Because they have been genetically gifted with better hand and eye coordination than others.
> 
> A natural ability can be improved upon. True or False?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Sorry not buying that either..but its ok if you are still in denial with a misused label.  Some people are better than others becasue they put their time in..it's that simple.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> *In trying to learn the gapping aim method, I've noticed that what is the most reliable cause of disaster, whether i'm going "instictive-like" or using gapping, is to second guess what's going on during the shot. If I wonder, I start thinking, I get distracted, and the arrow becomes a secondary priority to what's for lunch.*
> 
> I'd like to practice gapping well enough to make it automatic, and learning it, sometimes there's a temporary set back, because I'm holding the arrow at full draw, trying to remember where the point is supposed to be in relation to the target for a given distance. Until I get better, with practice, *it can sometimes throw off my rhythm. Under 20 yards, I seem to be better off just knowing where my arrow is in the periphery, looking at the target, and zoning out.*


awesome stuff right there Barney!  

i can definantly relate.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> Jinks - what ever puts a smile on your face at the end of the day is good form to me.


Thanks Trent...

And to those who complimented my present skills?..thank you so much..positive re-enforcement always helps keep the drive in me to carry on and be an active participant/member here @ A.T. trad forum...thank you! 

And to those who think i'm screwing up royal?..lemme take a moment to dispell some assumptions and inferences here...

1. I did not waste a penny at Rods Class: Heck..the benefit of Rod working with me (as he did all 10 of us) one-on-one to make sure we all fully understood what "Proper Back Tension" is and identify the right rhomboid muscle via the form-master rigs and how to apply slight tension to the left lateral to draw the bowarm shoulder downward and learning/knowing why?..that alone was worth every penny and then some..not to mention the many other aspects he taught and discussed..besides that?..the location/host was spot-on...we spent an entire weekend in one of the most tranquil and serene mid-state oak hammocks i've ever experienced..out in the middle of nowhere and the silence was deafening..truely away from it all..i know folks in the tri-state area that would spend a grand for a weekend like that and call it a deal..$225 for a full weekend of professional instruction?..awesome. 

2. I have not given up on what i've learned and will still practice blank-bail drills daily.

3. While i'm not certain what my goals ARE yet?..i do know what they AREN'T..and the bottom line is this..while i understand it takes work, dedication and commitment to become a better archer?..i'm not...."In It To Win It"..i've seen quite enough of the competitive glares and stares in my compound days..and have put myself under more stress than what any man could ever possibly describe as "being fun"..i'm done with that..i've got plenty enough gold plastic men drawing gold plastic bows on cultured marble columns and pedestals with my name on'em..they're in the garage right now collecting dust and growing cobwebs..my chest-pounding days are over..i just wanna have fun..if success comes?..it comes?..but i won't be turning something that i love so much into a giant stress sandwich just to join the ranks of becoming yet another egomanical competitor..as i usta be one myself and i believe the world has enough of those..i just wanna keep it fun! 

Hope that clears things up a little and?..thank you Patrick!  L8R, Bill.


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> awesome stuff right there Barney!
> 
> i can definantly relate.


me too. I enjoyed the vid


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## beemer1234 (Dec 2, 2010)

Rod Savini said:


> Dang you are good!


Yes He is if your goals are snap shooting in the back yard! I don't believe this will be advantageous to any high scores on a 3 d coarse but may have its advantages at hunting up close. Very close....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

thorwulfx said:


> I've taken a pass on most of this thread, as I felt like it was taking something done lightheartedly and sucking all the fun right out of it. That said, here are a few thoughts I have on the subject.
> 
> 1) Given enough time, anything can be learned to a level of expertise, even with pure trial and error. Learning from someone else who has already figured out what works and what doesn't has happened since the dawn of man. At the same time, what works for a given person may not be the only solution for everyone. Thus, though many paths tend to converge, there are alternatives that may merit study outside whatever orthodoxy is present in a school of thought.
> 
> ...


Thank you Patrick!  and as a tactical pistol/rifle/shotgun competitor?..(just like jumping bucks while stalking with a tradbow)..i've learned there is great value in being able to get the shot off quickly while maintaining what's known as "Practical Accuracy".


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

You guys have fun arguments. It doesn't start that way, but you guys make it fun!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Please Ray...that is about the lamest excuse for a a argument I have ever seen you use.


I'm sorry you feel that way...BUT...it's far from lame when a well respected dictionary uses the word 'instinct' to decribe how someone can have an instinct for the right word.

Everyone should know that language is something that is learned. We are taught it....and if the dictionary uses instinct to describe an ability to know what the correct word to use is or used to describe an athlete's ability which are both abilities that are learned and developed...it is TOTALLY logical to understand how it can also be applied to an aiming technique.

All anyone has to do to understand the truth is to answer a few simple questions.

Can a word have multiple definitions?

Can a word's definition and meaning evolve over time?

Is language learned?

Is an athlete's ability developed?

Are some people genetically gifted with better hand and eye coordination?

If you answer those honestly...than it should help you understand how the word can and does also apply to an aiming technique.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> You guys have fun arguments. It doesn't start that way, but you guys make it fun!



That's because we get so much practice, it has become instinctive.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Arcus said:


>


Strother Martin was a great actor. Directors were cautious about using him cause he would take over a scene from the star actor. He was great in alot of westerns especially in "Who Shot Liberty Valence"


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I think we can solve Jinks problem, after all it is his post that started this.........Jink, GET A 30LB BOW IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE AND LEARN WHAT IT IS TO SHOOT WITH A GOOD ANCHOR AND BACK TENSION RELEASE!:wink:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rembrandt said:


> I think we can solve Jinks problem, after all it is his post that started this.........Jink, GET A 30LB BOW IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE AND LEARN WHAT IT IS TO SHOOT WITH A GOOD ANCHOR AND BACK TENSION RELEASE!:wink:


why a 30# bow Rem?..isn't this good enough with my 46# bow?...


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Looks good, Bill. I like your t-shirt, too.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way...BUT...it's far from lame when a well respected dictionary uses the word 'instinct' to decribe how someone can have an instinct for the right word.
> 
> Everyone should know that language is something that is learned. We are taught it....and if the dictionary uses instinct to describe an ability to know what the correct word to use is or used to describe an athlete's ability which are both abilities that are learned and developed...it is TOTALLY logical to understand how it can also be applied to an aiming technique.
> 
> ...


Really...and your actually sticking with this line now ?

1 dictionary definition makes this so ?..

Nothing that is learned is instinctual in nature..and if you don't understand the context they are using..pick up the phone and call and ask them..This is something that has been debated for years with them in various schools..and is why several sources are always used..not just 1.

Words can have different meanings..depending on the context they are used..but..when discussing innate instincts..it is pretty cut and dry what is considered slang..and what is considered factual.

Yes..words can evolve over time..but our instincts really haven't evolved that much and in some cases..have diminised some..so..only the descriptive ability gained by direct medical science allows us to fully understand what is and what isn't factual and state it as such.

Of course launguage is learned..there is nothing instinctual about about practicing a learned behaviour..

Of course a athelites ability is developed..but again..nothing that is learned in any sport is truely instinctual..There are some people that can't walk & chew gum without tripping over their own feet..big deal..

I've already said some folks are more gifted..that is a given..but this too has nothing to do with instinctual ability..but purely physical differences in the various peoples anatomy..specifically in the brain..If shooting a bow was instinctual...everyone on the planet could do it easily..and we already know that is certainly not the case..hell..some people can't even figure out how to string a recurve or long bow...let alone shoot it and hit what they are looking at..

There is nothing instinctual about shooting a bow..nothing..it is a learned behaviour..nothing more..How we shoot is not instinctual in nature..only in trying to describe it...Just because we liken it to a instinct..does not truely make it instinctual in nature..and just because 1 dictionary uses or states it as their definition..does not make it a fact..

Please...spare me any more Ray..were all done here..

Bill sorry I didn't say this sooner.....nice video Bro..keep at it my friend..

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way...BUT...it's far from lame when a well respected dictionary uses the word 'instinct' to decribe how someone can have an instinct for the right word.
> 
> Everyone should know that language is something that is learned. We are taught it....and if the dictionary uses instinct to describe an ability to know what the correct word to use is or used to describe an athlete's ability which are both abilities that are learned and developed...it is TOTALLY logical to understand how it can also be applied to an aiming technique.
> 
> ...


Ray...how in the name of all that is holy did this turn into a freaking english lesson?..just hadta ask cause i LOATH english! :laugh: and now?...



MAC 11700 said:


> Really...and your actually sticking with this line now ?
> 
> 1 dictionary definition makes this so ?..
> 
> ...


onto the crux of me quoting you two word warriors...review this...cause as it seems..no..here IS how it IS for me...

when i'm snap shooting?...no..lemme re-phrase that..."every shot"..my aiming process begins from th moment i begin to raise my arms and draw my bow..i'm so called "burning a hole in it" before my bow and arrow are even fully in periphial view..and that's that's when i'm "in-the-zone" throught that aiming/drawing process..and then i snap it off never stopping rearward motion..cause when that rearward motion stops?..the very moment it stops?..the very moment i lock in and hold at anchor?..THAT IS THE MOMENT my subconscious aiming ends and conscious aiming begins..and my results with conscious aiming blows! :laugh: most likely cause i never shot a stickbow that way..it was always gone as soon as feather hit lip..And i'm certain that at least one of you two word warriors knows exactly what i speak of..here's the rub..subconscious works great inside 20yds....but i'm pretty sure that conscious could work better for me beyond 20yds..but what i wanna know is...can subconscious aiming be honed to preform well at distances of 30-40yds and possibly beyond?..but i know this..subconscious go conscious the moment i stop, lock and hold at anchor. Thanks, Bill. :cool2:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JINKSTER said:


> why a 30# bow Rem?..isn't this good enough with my 46# bow?...


I stand corrected.......looks good to me also!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Ray...how in the name of all that is holy did this turn into a freaking english lesson?..just hadta ask cause i LOATH english! :laugh: and now?...


LOL...it's easy....whenever someone claims there's no such thing as Instinctive Aiming...when #1. that's the name it has been given...and #2. there's evidence to totally support how it can be described as being Instinctive or Instinctive like in the dictionaries.

I hate English too. Math was my favorite subject next to gym, band and woodshop :wink:

I always try to make every effort to understand someone...so when I noticed all the controversy over Instinctive Aiming years ago...I decided to thoroughly research it and try to understand why that name was given to an aiming technique.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Really...and your actually sticking with this line now ?


Yes...I am using it....because I didn't make this stuff up...and I won't ignore other facts and evidence because I'm affraid they won't support my case.

The interesting and revealing issue is....I'm not claiming Instinctive aiming has ANYTHING to do with an inborn behavior. When the word 'instinct' is used to describe an aiming technique in that context...I agree with ANYONE who is discussing that.



MAC 11700 said:


> 1 dictionary definition makes this so ?..


I could claim the samething about you. It appears some of you are sticking to just one dictionarie's definition of the word or even just one definition.

Soooo to answer your question....No...I use this link to help me understand the meaning of words. 

http://www.onelook.com/

I don't rely on just one dictionary...because I know that the meaning of words can evolve and have different meanings than what one dictionary will say it has.



MAC 11700 said:


> Please...spare me any more Ray..were all done here..


Sorry...I'm not going to spare you anything on this subject...LOL...because the facts need to be presented.

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...it's easy....whenever someone claims there's no such thing as Instinctive Aiming...when #1. that's the name it has been given...and #2. there's evidence to totally support how it can be described as being Instinctive or Instinctive like in the dictionaries.
> 
> I hate English too. Math was my favorite subject next to gym, band and woodshop :wink:
> 
> ...


You mean to tell me you didn't like OLD ENGLISH? This is the opening to the Canterbury Tales!

Juan that apprili, in the shoris soati
The drought of March, did soak to the Vein
And bathed every vein with sweet Liquer
Of which vertu, enjendered is the flour!

I loved that stuff and minored in English. Ended up with over 60 hours 
Beowulf
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> You mean to tell me you didn't like OLD ENGLISH? This is the opening to the Canterbury Tales!
> 
> Juan that apprili, in the shoris soati
> The drought of March, did soak to the Vein
> ...


Ooooh heck no! LOL...some of that's almost like me trying to read German.

I did love the stories though.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> Ray...how in the name of all that is holy did this turn into a freaking english lesson?..just hadta ask cause i LOATH english! :laugh: and now?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your asking the wrong person about the subconscious Bill...since I don't believe in it nor try to use the word anymore..but..I do know what your asking..so..let me try it this way..

If you have to stop and think (analyze) what your doing...even for a second or 2..it is disrupting your very wide awake non-conscious mind that has already seen the target..and wants to utilized your stored memory of how to shoot the shot you are attempting and it knows what signals to send to your muscles (muscle memory) to get you to physically make the shot..If your holding and "getting your sight picture "..your just consciously aiming but trying not to think about it..Either way..your not utilizing what you already have at it's maximum potential..and your accuracy is suffering because of it.

You have so many more stored memories already in shooting fast..These are your primary memories..The ones you are making now..have to be done as much and done correctly( in the way you were taught and how you want to shoot now...as opposed to before) to make them your primary memories.. Will you be able to make 30-40 and further shots in time...I don't know if you can..that will be entirely up to you..and that will depend with the effort and amount of quality practice you put into it..but..to be capable & accurate at those distances...you got to practice at those distances..and a occasional 3d shoot is not really what I consider good practice..there are too many distractions..

Some things to help you achieve this..that work for me..

1...Make sure your eye sight is perfect...you can't hit what you can't see..so..if you need new glasses..or contacts..get them and use them.

2..Practice out in the open on range estimations..on a life size target you plan on shooting at..Practice focusing on a very small dot or portion of the target...not the whole target..the old saying..." aim small miss small " is sound advise from a long long time ago..

3..Keep it fun...there is no need at shooting excessive amounts of arrows...sometimes just a few is actually more beneficial.. You can practice visualizing your shooting..and then take 1 shot to see..

4..Exercise...there is really no reason not to..and is most always beneficial if done correctly.

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> Your asking the wrong person about the subconscious Bill...


LOL...IF he was asking me...than he definitely was asking the right person :wink: but the way I read his last thread he was describing his aiming technique rather than questioning it...even though ? marks were being used.

Soooo Bill....is there something specifically you don't quite understand about how you aim?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> Sorry not buying that either..


LOL...you don't have to buy it. I'm NOT trying to sell it to you or anyone else who has already made their mind up. 

The info I share is for those open or trying to learn as much as they can.



Mo0se said:


> Some people are better than others becasue they put their time in..it's that simple.


Sorry...it's NOT just that simple.

Yes...no matter who you are....if you want to get good at something you have to put time into it...BUT...genetically speaking...there are those that will excel in certain sports more than others.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> Your asking the wrong person about the subconscious Bill...since I don't believe in it nor try to use the word anymore..but..I do know what your asking..so..let me try it this way..
> 
> If you have to stop and think (analyze) what your doing...even for a second or 2..it is disrupting your very wide awake non-conscious mind that has already seen the target..and wants to utilized your stored memory of how to shoot the shot you are attempting and it knows what signals to send to your muscles (muscle memory) to get you to physically make the shot..If your holding and "getting your sight picture "..your just consciously aiming but trying not to think about it..Either way..your not utilizing what you already have at it's maximum potential..and your accuracy is suffering because of it.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mac...all good stuff..#1. outside of needing readers for the fine print on medicine bottles my vision is good these days..anything beyond book reading distance i can see like i did when i was in my 20's..like an eagle..#2. Yep..plan on getting up to the range more often so i can catch a visual of some 40 yarders and see if i can practice a little gapping as that's the POD for my 46# Bob Lee w/ 175gr points...#3. Odd...i was just thinking about that this morning while i was building my new arrows..thinking i need to inject more quality and commitment into each and every shot and just shoot about 50-100 a night instead of 200-300 and STOP the moment i detect any collapse in my many forms! LOL!...#4 yep..i need to quit making old age/injury excuses and get off my dead procastinating azz and like NIKE says...just do it! :laugh:



BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...IF he was asking me...than he definitely was asking the right person :wink: but the way I read his last thread he was describing his aiming technique rather than questioning it...even though ? marks were being used.
> 
> Soooo Bill....is there something specifically you don't quite understand about how you aim?
> 
> Ray :shade:


No Ray...i believe i'm very much aware of what's going on with my aiming..and i guess what i'm really asking is would it benefit me to attempt to dedicate myself to consciously gapping or should i just use the force?..sub-consciously gapping off many (if not all) points..as with gapping?...i tend to use and consciously focus on just one point...the tip of the arrow...or?..both?..cause alls i know is this..from 20yds on in?..my best results are just starring at what i want to hit and snapping it off in one clean, fast fluid motion..with zero thought applied.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Yes...I am using it....because I didn't make this stuff up...and I won't ignore other facts and evidence because I'm affraid they won't support my case.
> 
> The interesting and revealing issue is....I'm not claiming Instinctive aiming has ANYTHING to do with an inborn behavior. When the word 'instinct' is used to describe an aiming technique in that context...I agree with ANYONE who is discussing that.
> 
> ...


Actually no Ray...I do use more than one..and can see when the majority says the same thing ( in context)..just because I quote from one is not indicative to all of my statements.

While words do evolve..and folks do try to give different meanings to them..medical facts..are medical facts..and the smart money is always on the true medically proven facts...even though popular contention is on the other..

You can choose to be factual..or choose to use words in the wrong context..when derived from their parent word. What the word is a derivative of..is just as important for keeping it in the proper context _if one wants to be completely factual...not just going along with it's popular meaning_.Here's 3..from 3 different sources..including Mirriams..


Instinctual

Of, relating to, or derived from instinct..... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/in...[url]http://www.answers.com/topic/instinctual 

Ray...you should know...the only time it is proper to use a descriptive "popular word".. is in informal speech...and never when wishing to be factual while trying to describe actual processes..It doesn't mix...and only serves to propagate it's usage and see it's actual meaning discarded..or corrupted by certain individuals who choose to embellish it's actuality with traits not proven...or wrong in nature... I choose to not give credence to something that is not based on medically proven processes in the brain..and find it easier ( though not popular) to ascribe to being as correct as possible during these discussions.

You can choose to discuss this how ever you want..

Mac


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

Hey Jinks! No matter what Man, I really like that instinctive "indian" bow shooting. You do a dandy job of it! Thanks for the video! scout4


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## maufenkamp (Dec 21, 2011)

Very nice shooting!! I'd like to point out that you look like you're having more fun than 100% of the subjects in the "how's my form" threads.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Bill

Look at your shirt in the vid you are shaking at anchor - drop down in weight and you can really grove it.

Matt


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...IF he was asking me...than he definitely was asking the right person :wink: but the way I read his last thread he was describing his aiming technique rather than questioning it...even though ? marks were being used.
> 
> Soooo Bill....is there something specifically you don't quite understand about how you aim?
> 
> Ray :shade:



Seeing as how at the very start of jinksters post it said RAY. Stupid me, I thought for sure he was speaking to you.. I guess mac missed that.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MAC 11700 said:


> Actually no Ray...I do use more than one..and can see when the majority says the same thing ( in context)..just because I quote from one is not indicative to all of my statements.
> 
> While words do evolve..and folks do try to give different meanings to them..medical facts..are medical facts..and the smart money is always on the true medically proven facts...even though popular contention is on the other..
> 
> ...



Mac, do you think that part of the problem might be that you care a lot about the words, but most of us really not so much?
I just prefer to accept that someone at sometime decided to use that word and I guess it just kinda caught on. If it's perfectly accurate or not, don't care. I know what a person means when he uses it. That seems to be good enough for the rest of us.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> While words do evolve..and folks do try to give different meanings to them..medical facts..are medical facts..and the smart money is always on the true medically proven facts...even though popular contention is on the other.


Facts are facts...whether they're medical facts or not.

If a dictionary/dictionaries give a definition to a word and give an example of how to use it within that context and you don't agree with it...your disagreement with it does NOT make it any less of a fact than what it is.

Smart money is always on recognizing when someone is making something up or when they're sharing evidence that can be easily found and studied.

There are processes of the human body that happen below our conscious level. Some processes happen while being totally unaware of them. Some processes are triggered by conscious thought and than there are those processes that are at different levels of conscious awareness.

The term subconscious is basically just a term that is used to describe a process that is mediated below conscious thought.

Again...this is really no different than argueing over a woman's beauty of whether she can be called 'hot' or not.

Some will say...No...because it doesn't fit the word's original definition...and others will say...Yes...because there is evidence that the word has evolved.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Mac, do you think that part of the problem might be that you care a lot about the words, but most of us really not so much?
> I just prefer to accept that someone at sometime decided to use that word and I guess it just kinda caught on. If it's perfectly accurate or not, don't care. I know what a person means when he uses it. That seems to be good enough for the rest of us.


:thumbs_up

I care more about trying to understand one another rather than holding on to how a word was traditionally or originally used.

Heck...back in the day....Instinctive Shooting was used to basically describe any barebow aiming technique...now it has evolved into describing a specific way to aim a barebow.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Bill
> 
> Look at your shirt in the vid you are shaking at anchor - drop down in weight and you can really grove it.
> 
> Matt



I saw the little jiggle in the shirt but I also saw the leaves in the background. The wind was blowing and could have been moving the shirt also. Not sure.

What I did notice was a pretty long hold at anchor. I was not able to get an accurate count because each one was different,but that can also account for some shaking. Seems that somewhere between snapshooting and an eight count could be a happy medium that works. In my case that seems to be about 2 or 3 seconds.

Bill, I'm going to address your question about distance in this post too. Personally I hardly ever shoot beyond 40yds and then not more than about 45. Notice I said hardly ever.
I read something about Rick Welch killing a turkey at 50 or 60 yds once. I'm thinking that means he's a little better at it than me.
So, I do believe that it requires practice at those distances to become proficient. Obviously you can't start at long distance and expect some instant gratification but it can be done by working up to it over time.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> why a 30# bow Rem?..isn't this good enough with my 46# bow?...


I think this is the first video where you didn't show the group at the end...what's up with that? :wink:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> I think this is the first video where you didn't show the group at the end...what's up with that? :wink:


would've been pointless...i was blank bailing at about 10feet..but even my blank bailing aint blank...i was aiming at the staples on the bottom of my top bag just to keep the arrows seperated. :laugh:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Easykeeper said:


> I think this is the first video where you didn't show the group at the end...what's up with that? :wink:



It's polite to ignore some things. Just an oversight, don't ya reckin?


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> would've been pointless...i was blank bailing at about 10feet..but even my blank bailing aint blank...i was aiming at the staples on the bottom of my top bag just to keep the arrows seperated. :laugh:


:thumbs_up


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> It's polite to ignore some things. Just an oversight, don't ya reckin?


It's Saturday afternoon, just felt like yanking ol' Jinksters chain a little...:archer:


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

im having a little trouble with the back tention, even in the last vid you can see whare he tries to tighten up the romboyds and takes pressure off his forearm before releasing, this is what gets me. when at full draw trying to use all backtention plus hold correct anchor


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> i believe i'm very much aware of what's going on with my aiming.


I didn't think you needed or wanted any further explanation :wink:

Some people just don't have good enough instincts to have realized that :wink:



JINKSTER said:


> i guess what i'm really asking is would it benefit me to attempt to dedicate myself to consciously gapping or should i just use the force.


It really depends on your goals...and please correct me if I'm wrong...you mentioned that you haven't quite yet narrowed them all down. Correct?

If you haven't yet...just stick to the one you get the most enjoyment out of.

If you're primarily a bowhunter and your getting typical results with your aiming technique as your videos indicate....I would just stick to aiming Instinctively...especially with you keeping you shot distance at 20yrds. max.

Now if you're like me....and want to be at the top of the pack in 3D competition and like to be good at shooting any target under any circumstance...than you will need to learn a couple of aiming techniques.

You also have to take into account your personality. Can you switch back and forth between aiming techniques without messing to much with your head?

Do you like variety in your aiming choices?

Or do you like simplicity and just having one aiming technique?

For me personally....If I had to pick one aiming technique to help fulfill my goals....it would be the main aiming technique I currently use for most of my shots...which is basically Gap Aiming.

I've been shooting this way for so long...I NEVER take my eyes off of my target to look at my arrow point or my gap. My eyes are always focused on my target even though I'm aware of my gap within my periphial vision.

My concern with you is...you're a great shot in your backyard shooting at the same target...but whenever I read about you attending a 3D tournament...your scores aren't that great....which is an indication that you haven't yet mastered your sight picture for different targets and distances and you're relying more on muscle/motor memory to shoot like you do in your back yard. 

Something to consider....try setting up different sized targets in differnt positions in your back yard at different distances.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Mac, do you think that part of the problem might be that you care a lot about the words, but most of us really not so much?
> I just prefer to accept that someone at sometime decided to use that word and I guess it just kinda caught on. If it's perfectly accurate or not, don't care. I know what a person means when he uses it. That seems to be good enough for the rest of us.


You're right...why even discuss it...

Mac


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

rembrandt said:


> The more I read all this intellectual rendering about shooting a bow the more comical it gets.......can you imagine back in the days the Indians and barbarians analyzing their archery ability with all this talk of instinctive, subconscious and which side of their brain they are using......it just hit me as astronomically funny!
> 
> Ugh........Geronimo, when you draw back your selfmade bow there, do you use the gap system or do you shoot instinctive by using the analytical side of you brain?


The indians didn't discuss cancer either but it still killed them dead.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> We don't want to talk archery,we want to talk brains dammit. And if we are still alive then, we can get back on the subject of archery. BUT, I hafta warn ya,it could be a few years.
> We just gotta get these brains figured out first.:BangHead:


You're right Gump. You are right with that little emocon banging its head against the wall. I see a lot of guys doing that vs. trying to understanding what will make them hit the 10 ring more times than not. You can keep banging away if you want and I'll keep trying to help folks shoot better through understanding.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I'll keep trying to help folks shoot better through understanding.


:thumbs_up

Sometimes people need a real simple explanation...while others need a more complex detailed explanation.

The key is to try and make every effort to communicate better or more effectively for better understanding with all types of personalities...not just one.

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Sometimes people need a real simple explanation...while others need a more complex detailed explanation.
> 
> ...


I think I was very clear in my explanation to all, but that's just me Ray.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I think I was very clear in my explanation to all, but that's just me Ray.


I know I thought you were pretty clear.

Ray :shade:


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

MAC 11700 yer my heeeerrrroooo!
No really I do understand what folks mean when they refer to Instinctive Archery. But doesn't change that it is a misuse of the word. Sure words and language do evolve. Bu its amusing to think that a tiny miniscule dimingshingly small segment of the English speaking population will successfully alter the definition of a word. Any newby entering the sport understands English just as 99.9999999......% of the population does. Convincing them that they have some sort of "instinct" for shooting archery only serves to promote and spread misinformation for reasons unknown. All too often setting the newby back years in their potential progress.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Charon said:


> Convincing them that they have some sort of "instinct" for shooting archery only serves to promote and spread misinformation for reasons unknown.


Who here is trying to promote or convince anyone that being able to aim a bow Instinctively has anything to do with your Biology 101 definition of an inborn pattern of behavior?

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I didn't think you needed or wanted any further explanation :wink:
> 
> Some people just don't have good enough instincts to have realized that :wink:
> 
> ...


Hold the phone there a second Ray..yeah...i had a bad scoring shoot or two over last minute decisions to go after changing stuff and whatnot but..on like my 3rd ever 3D shooting trad i did come in 1st of 3 whopping up on a couple locals!..










and it was my first ever "clean round" in the afternoon but..your right...score still wasn't great or even good..averaged like 7 1/4 points...i'm still hunting for getting my first 8 point average.  ..but not bad for a first year trad guy hugh?  



BLACK WOLF said:


> Something to consider....try setting up different sized targets in differnt positions in your back yard at different distances.
> 
> Ray :shade:


I had been doing that participating daily in a "Cold Shot" event elsewheres but.."drills" consumed me last week...


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## Dsturgisjr (Aug 20, 2004)

JINKSTER said:


> why a 30# bow Rem?..isn't this good enough with my 46# bow?...


Jinkster, you are looking good in this video clip. Very sporty!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> your right...score still wasn't great or even good..averaged like 7 1/4 points...i'm still hunting for getting my first 8 point average.  ..but not bad for a first year trad guy hugh?


.725% isn't bad at all. I'm not trying to say you're a bad shot. I'm just trying to help you with developing your sight picture for the style of shooting you're using and the type of situations you're participating in...but I think you're getting my point.



JINKSTER said:


> I had been doing that participating daily in a "Cold Shot" event elsewheres but.."drills" consumed me last week...


What I'm suggesting isn't necessarily a Cold Shot...it's more like setting up your targets to imitate roving so your not relying so much on muscle/motor memory for one target that's basically always in the same position/heigth and has the same basic background for every shot...which why roving can be good for bowhunters and 3D shooters if they don't have access to shooting a 3D course everytime they practice.

What I'm suggesting isn't necessarily setting up a roving course in your back yard...but basically trying to set up your shooting lane with different targets of different shapes and sizes set at different heights and distances to imitate how roving can help bowhunters and 3D shooters. You than shoot one arrow at each target you have set up from different distances and angles.

It's just a practice technique to help you better recognize the correct sight picture when you do in fact shoot at different targets from different distances and at different angles.

You may be surprised at how much our eyes and mind recognize the same objects within our periphial vision and use them to help us aim.

Ray :shade:


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

Jinks,
Stand at the target and throw six arrows about the range some lightly and some firmly. It's a lot of fun. The muscle memory and form that you are building at static known distances is great, but not all that useful for 3d or hunting. You may be handicapping yourself. 
All that said, I like videos. The people who post them here are brave souls.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> .725% isn't bad at all. I'm not trying to say you're a bad shot. I'm just trying to help you with developing your sight picture for the style of shooting you're using and the type of situations you're participating in...but I think you're getting my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rodger that!..i wish i lived i where theres some elevational changes and hardwoods where i could go stumping..go stumping in south florida here and ya better bring a metal detector and even then finding your arrow be just a maybe! :laugh:

worst part is..ya might find a whole buncha stuff ya don't wanna find..like buzzworm city...and mocassins...god i hate mocassins! :angry:


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## AUSSIEDUDE (Apr 17, 2009)

I used to be able to go out and hit what I was aiming at but now the right side of my brain keeps arguing with the left side, my subconscious can't get along with my conscious and I keep tripping over all the kinesiology lying around. Much preferred it when it was all so simple.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

AUSSIEDUDE said:


> Much preferred it when it was all so simple.


So just point and shoot the darn thang! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> So just point and shoot the darn thang! :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Things got much simpler for me today Ray!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Things got much simpler for me today Ray!


Saaaaweet! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Things got much simpler for me today Ray!



So, why don't ya just keep us waiting? Out with it boy, what got simpler?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> So just point and shoot the darn thang! :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:



Ya gotta stop stealing my lines.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Ya gotta stop stealing my lines.


Just borrowing...no stealin'! :wink:. I figured if you wanted to use any of my more complicated lines...you could borrow them free of charge anytime you wanted :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> So, why don't ya just keep us waiting? Out with it boy, what got simpler?


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1763341


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

GEREP said:


> I hope Mr. Jenkins cashed your check.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> KPC


LOL..now that's funny


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

GEREP said:


> Because The Sundance Kid was a fictional character in a movie.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> ...


couldn't have said it better.............!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Hey Lee, how was Baltimore?

Did you see anyone shootin' *"***** style?"*

:wink:

KPC


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Baltimore was great, as usual...had to be record crowd there this weekend! Didn't see anyone shoot "***** style", whatever that actually is????? Saw so many different bows.....saw a lot of clickers, stabilizers, elevated rests, wrist slings there..(at a trad shoot...oh my!) but the trad police/elite must have taken the weekend off cause nobody got escorted out.....heard no discussions on instinctive/gap....so the weekend was good......just 1000+ people shooting and having a good time! Most people there actually anchored, and shot different targets at more than 10-15 yards....heck, the practice range was 20 yards...!


Lee


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Great shoot


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

fotoguy said:


> Baltimore was great, as usual...had to be record crowd there this weekend! Didn't see anyone shoot "***** style", whatever that actually is????? Saw so many different bows.....


What about *"glamour bows?"* Did you see any of them there? 

How about *"pixie dust..."*

Any *"form nazi's..."* 

Anyone with *"Band Aids on their nose?"* 

Come on man, spill it. Enquiring minds want to know?



KPC


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

GEREP said:


> What about *"glamour bows?"* Did you see any of them there?
> 
> How about *"pixie dust..."*
> 
> ...


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

GEREP said:


> What about *"glamour bows?"* Did you see any of them there?
> 
> How about *"pixie dust..."*
> 
> ...


 A lot of "glamour bows"...saw quite a few Hoyt setups, TradTech was there with their ILF bows, Zipper had some ILF bows....

Didn't see any pixie dust..but could have used some on the courses..I installed a clicker on my Silvertip and was working through it all weekend....

No form Nazis.....

Band aids on noses...well, does the vicks nose strips I use at night to breath better count?

Nobody stood at the entrance and checked equipment...there was no place on the registration form for shooting style, equipment, whatever...just how many days are you shooting.....

To tell you the truth...when you go to a traditional shoot...most people could care less what bow, what style of shooting, what arrows, or anything else that gets rehashed time and time again here...people care about their own equipment and shooting.....most are interested in other gear....but no "discussions" like on many forums....haven't seen a fight break out between and instinctive and gap shooter, or an ILF and selfbow shooter, or carbon vs wood, glove vs tab....it is only on these forums, where people sit with relative anonimity, and can post whatever they feel without having to face the other person.....or provide any proof or justfification.....the internet forums have made brave typists....but I'm afraid that's about it......


Baltimore was great.....and now am looking forward to Denton Hill....going to concentrate on shooting my bamboo backed osage longbow,,,,,,it's a little tougher to shoot and get used to.....the Schafer shoots the same.....I have full confidence in that bow.....time to work with the longbow.......


Lee


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> GEREP said:
> 
> 
> > What about *"glamour bows?"* Did you see any of them there?
> ...


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

MAC 11700 said:


> FORESTGUMP said:
> 
> 
> > Touche'
> ...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Dang..I feel so blessed to have you guys in my life..it gives me so many opportunities to work my program. Thanks! 

Love, Bill. :cool2:


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## beemer1234 (Dec 2, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> Dang..I feel so blessed to have you guys in my life..it gives me so many opportunities to work my program. Thanks!
> 
> Love, Bill. :cool2:


What program you talking about Jinks? ***** style, Rod Jinkens style, or Jinksters style


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

beemer1234 said:


> What program you talking about Jinks? ***** style, Rod Jinkens style, or Jinksters style


take yer pick cause while all you guys got is form?..i got "style"..and lots of it! :laugh:

I'm StyL'In! :laugh:


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## shec6135 (Jan 2, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> take yer pick cause while all you guys got is form?..i got "style"..and lots of it! :laugh:
> 
> I'm StyL'In! :laugh:


long read! a lot of good info but also a lot of chest thumping . i enjoyed your videos and look forward to going traditional (am i allowed to call it that) someday, but doubt i will give up my compound. like you said it's all about what's fun, when it stops being that what use is there for it?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Are you sure it's the inquring minds that want to know, or is there perhaps another word in this case more descriptive.


Sure, why not. I guess if you really wanted to, you could switch *"Enquiring"* to *"discriminating."*

:thumbs_up

KPC


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## La Wildman (Mar 9, 2010)

onlyaspike said:


> Is this what the 21 days of BLANK BAIL shooting got ya ? lol.....I bet if Rod Jenkins saw this he'd be scratchin' his head...lol




hahahaha......:eek2:


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

What is "***** Style" ? Have you ever seen an Indian shoot or are you going off old westerns that stereotyped the Indians? Most pictures I have seen, including ISHI pinched he string with thumb and forefinger and actually anchored. Went to the Smithsonian Native American exhibit and read many books but never saw them shoot like you did. 


Just sayin!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey Lee ya got nothin better to do today then abuse Jinks ? 

Just sayin


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

I dont see Jinkster actin a horses ass to others like so many seem to do towards him. Dont see that at the shoots either, most get along just fine. Must be somethin about hidin behind computer screens.


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Actually using my phone to type this and it's much too small to hide behind. J, just asking questions, entitled to do that on a public forum, even though it appears to be Jinks' fan club gathering site. I don't hide behind keyboards. I'm at a lot of trad shoots and will speak my mind. Look me up!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Geez Lee ya seem to like to pick on people on the Internet 

Not a jinks fan club I was just brought up not to pick on people 

Would be happy to introduce myself 

Ya say your a big hunter there buddy lets see some of your successes


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I see the green monster has placed it's icy grip on a couple of our posters.....


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Never said I was a big hunter. Said I shot 3d to get ready to hunt. Said I love to hunt. Never claimed to be a trophy hunter. As far as being a big hunter, I am a tad overweight right now! But I am working on that. I merely said I practice wit and shoot the same equipment I hunt with in order to feel confident with one setup. Don't remember stating anything or bragging abou kills or trophys. I have killed deer, but never claimed to be a "big hunter" unless that means I hunt every chance I get. Then I guess I am. 

Just sayin!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Take it easy lee 

I just voiced my opinion that you guys where being a bit rough on Jinks and you started with the I'm not hard to find BS 

Well I live an hour from ya so I'm not either  

There is no reason to abuse anyone


Just Sayin


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

J...the I'm not hard to find was based on a comment about people hiding behind a keyboard on another thread....just stated that i am and always have been available in person, and do not hide behind a keyboard..I would say the same things in person to people that I state here....as far as being rough on Jinks....I believe that when a person posts on a public forum about things, and people offer advice which they have learned, that might help that person..and then he turns around and makes excuses or denounces the advice as trying to force their will on him, only to post within a short time that they were right all along...and flip flop back and forth so much it makes a person dizzy...well...
.I sincerely doubt that person really wants to improve, or listen to advice or opinions that don't fit into their little box...or comfort zone....I have no animosity towards Jinks or others who like to try different things...but get extremely suspicious when those people twist words and make excuses, and turn it around on those that offer sincere advice....that is all I am saying...I truly believe that Jinks merely posts videos and comments to gain attention..and when criticism comes along, mostly constructive...he gets all pious and defensive...when that happens, YES I believe I have the right to question and "slam" him for his obvious contradictions.....it's a public forum...he posted with that understanding,.....and if a person flip flops on things as much as he does...they should get called on it......I, and many folks more talented than me have offered opinions and advice gained from years of experience and trial and error....and offered it freely..only to be accused of trying to force our will on Poor Jinks....while he appears the poor picked on guy just havin fun....
.While I do not really care, I fully believe a year from now, people will be reading the same type of threads from him....I have come to the conclusion that he merely wants to be the center of positive attention.....and those of you who enjoy his videos and posts and commend him for stacking arrows from the same distance, angle, etc day in and day out....enjoy the show....I have tried to be helpful..only to be accused of being rude and critical....and not knowing what I am talking about...so....I will refrain from posting anything about Poor Ole Jinks any more.....in fact, will just go right by any post started by him, which will actually diminish my time reading threads on this site....and let the Court Jester have his day.......Jinks, I sincerely apologize for caring...and trying to impose my will on you by suggesting methods that over time have proven to be an effective way to improve shooting....

Keep calm and carry on...I'm outta here.......


Lee


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Personally, I find Jink's posts informative, valuable, and entertaining. THere's alot to be learned from both experts and the regular guy that's out there pounding the pavement everyday. Sometimes the experts can get all caught up with "this is the way it's done" and forget that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I see it everyday in corporate America, where all the suits can't wait to have a meeting and "fix" all the problems, when they haven't been out in the field doing the work. In other words, there is a ton of value, and alot to learn from the experiences of the layman, and sometimes the experts need to consider that they too were once a novice, and remember the roads they traveled in obtaining their expertise. Everybody here has the same basic goal - to be the best archer they can be. We just don't all arrive there the same way or at the same time.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Lee 

Hi, my name is actually Joe 


Jinks is not hurting anyone , he's just excited and he is emmersed in his new found love of stikbow shooting. He considers this forum friends and is sharing his journey along the way. 

Only thing sad is he cares what the people on here think. 

In my opinion it is alright to disagree with the way someone is doing something but to belittle someone and pick on someone is just unkind 

I am a very opiniated person but I try to keep my self in check. Ive been shooting recurves my whole life and I am still learning and trying to improve.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

UrbanDeerSlayer;10642661 02 said:


> Personally, I find Jink's posts informative, valuable, and entertaining. THere's alot to be learned from both experts and the regular guy that's out there pounding the pavement everyday. Sometimes the experts can get all caught up with "this is the way it's done" and forget that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I see it everyday in corporate America, where all the suits can't wait to have a meeting and "fix" all the problems, when they haven't been out in the field doing the work. In other words, there is a ton of value, and alot to learn from the experiences of the layman, and sometimes the experts need to consider that they too were once a novice, and remember the roads they traveled in obtaining their expertise. Everybody here has the same basic goal - to be the best archer they can be. We just don't all arrive there the same way or at the same time.


Thanks UDS!  well said!..and while i understand there are some basic fundamentals that can not be denied?...after that it becomes a matter of grooming personal preference (of what's comfortable and repeatable) and what works for me might blow for you and visa-versa..also..with the net being such a wonderful tool for info sharing there is a varitable plethora of styles both shared and witnessed..for instance..to this day i'm bewildered by the twirly hand thingy Rick Welch has going on with his release..obviousely not that it's a bad thing..the mans an icon but..i simply don't understand it but apparently it works real well for him...where if i tried the same my arrow would probably wind up in a zip code somewhere out west! :laugh:

I try to keep an open mind and i like to sample taste it all before i order up the main course and even then...season it to my liking.

MAC11700 gave me a ring this morning and we had a solid hour in depth convo regarding wants and styles..we're always real open and connect well with each other and he gives me a lot of "head coaching" along the way and i listen as he's a former top-o-class instinctive kinda guy and knows that to the core i am as well..and i sorta hafta believe him cause as i review the vid i originally posted in this thread?..i find myself wondering...even though it was only a touch over 10yds?..how many others could shoot snap-shoot 5 arrows in about 40 seconds without any sort of solid form going on, with my stringhand floating in space 4-5"s away from my face, with bow canted 30-45 degrees and pile'em into a plum sized group?..and i think that's why Mac told me...

"If you sell that Bob Lee i will personally drive down to florida to kick your azz! :laugh:

And he knows two things..the grip fits me like a glove and i've shot it so many times it's like it's become a part of me as i confessed to him..yeah Mike...that's the one bow i own that if i was in a dark warehouse?...chance are..if i could hear it?...i could hit it. 

Steve Morley was the guy that had got me thinking about trying ***** style as i witnessed remarkable feats in vids he posted of Mr. Kassai and it got me thinking and wondering about the "Practical Accuracy" aspects of instinctive archery...and how the great wall of china was built because the chinese so feared the huns..and how the american indian was reknowned for taking down stampeding buffalo from horseback..awesome history...as follows..






and when i tried it myself just standing on the ground in my backyard?..i was amazed at how accurate i could be sans any proper form..breaking all the rules...and just letting'er rip..and posted something like "i wish it wasn't so dark out cause i would've liked to record what i thought to be amazing results..matter fact?..unbelievable...(which is why i wanted to record it)..and ironically enough?....it was AT member GEREP who stated..."Now That's a Vid I'd Like To See!"...and i made the mistake of accomodating him..hence this 6 page long thread...and right about now?..

I'm thinking it's gonna get a few pages longer. :laugh:

Thanks for the support ya'll..and i guess we just gotta let the haters hate! 

Good Shoot'in too ya and?...L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JParanee said:


> Lee
> 
> Hi, my name is actually Joe
> 
> ...


Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Besides, it's my job to pick on the Jinkster and I'm not giving it up without a fight.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Hey Jinks, 
You asked about how many can hit a plum sized group at 10 yards without solid form... to be honest... I'm not sure but I've watched a lot of folks use that type of form on the range looking for arrows. That type of shooting may work pretty well at close ranges but as the distance grows, terrain varies and lighting changes it becomes extremely hard to consistently place arrows like that. I'm not the type to say it can't be done but brilliant shots made in that manner are generally the exception to the rule. 

As an aside, why is it people always think using basic form principles doesn't apply to hunting or quick shooting or trick shooting? I've always viewed the basic tenets of form as the motor and drive train of a car and the individual things (like canting, anchor point, split or three under, aiming, etc) as more of a style thing. Kinda like the exterior of the car. You can build the outside of a Corvette to look good but if you for some reason you stick a crappy 4 cylinder engine in it the dang thing will never perform well. Kinda like shooting form. Nail the basics down, find the style that works and you shouldn't have any problems.

Developing rock solid form will allow you to adapt to different shots easily because your body will have a solid, set routine it knows. Even if you shoot quickly or from weird positions you'll stack the deck in your favor. That same form will hold up on the target line and still allow you to do fun stuff. Kinda like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRlFGaNrp3A 

I'm not posting that in the interest of self-promotion, only in an effort to show that once you have the basics down you can easily adapt it to fit whatever position you shoot from or what the situation demands.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRlFGaNrp3A


GREAT video!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I liked it also


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Hey Jinks,
> You asked about how many can hit a plum sized group at 10 yards without solid form... *to be honest... I'm not sure but I've watched a lot of folks use that type of form on the range looking for arrows*. That type of shooting may work pretty well at close ranges but as the distance grows, terrain varies and lighting changes it becomes extremely hard to consistently place arrows like that. I'm not the type to say it can't be done but brilliant shots made in that manner are generally the exception to the rule.
> 
> As an aside, why is it people always think using basic form principles doesn't apply to hunting or quick shooting or trick shooting? I've always viewed the basic tenets of form as the motor and drive train of a car and the individual things (like canting, anchor point, split or three under, aiming, etc) as more of a style thing. Kinda like the exterior of the car. You can build the outside of a Corvette to look good but if you for some reason you stick a crappy 4 cylinder engine in it the dang thing will never perform well. Kinda like shooting form. Nail the basics down, find the style that works and you shouldn't have any problems.
> ...


Not everyone can shoot like that...which is very true...but...many of us can. The crux of those who disagree or discount shooting like this..is the reason I highlighted what I did in your post..

Shooting this style is not about shooting targets in any competition..and is something I feel you and most guys who do compete on some level don't or won't understand.Those that are attempting shooting this way in competition should not attempt to do so..until they have a better skill set of range estimation..This takes a lot of practice and as Jimmy Blackmon said...a lot of patience..

Instinctive archery in it's purest self is not about any proper "form" ..it is about being able to have a certain level of "practical " accuracy that will enable a person to put the arrow into the vitals of any animal they are after from any position they stand sit kneel hang upside down if necessary or range suitable for their level of accuracy for the size of game they are hunting ..regardless of what terrain they are in.The key word here is hunting...

Stacking arrows in a plum size group is about self pride and bragging rights..*as it is in all forms of target archery* and is totally irrelevant to having the needed "practical" accuracy for a hunting situation along with devoting enough time and effort to know how what their range is for shooting this style and and having the common sense being able to switch to aiming when needed..If they are flinging arrows everywhere except into the vitals..then they are either wasting time competing..or using that shoot for a practice session..If they are hunting..and do this..then they are indiscriminately taking a chance at wounding instead of trying for a clean kill...As a hunter..we all must come to grips on what our limits of practical accuracy is..and do our best to stay within those limits...We should utilize what ever aiming methods we can to ensure the animal is taken cleanly and recovered..

This is the problem I have with most 3d shoots..most are more geared to promoting target accuracy..instead of ethics..and practical hunting lessons..and is a far cry from what they were when they first came on the scene..I've not seen any these days that have a shoot or don't shoot targets set up..and if shot..points were deducted...

Mac


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Mac,
I should have clarified that statement which you highlighted. See, I completely understand that the fluid and loose form like that can have it's place. I know in hunting you really only need to be able to keep an arrow in the vitals and not the ability to shoot tight groups. The trouble is I've seen and talked to lots of folks who have never tried to incorporate some of the more basic, tried and true tenets of form. They've only ever shot that fast, loose style. If a guy starts out that way and doesn't have the basics down he's gotta be exceptionally gifted to be able to succeed like that. Most of the time I see those same guys struggling to hit targets and talking about misses in the woods and lost animals. And, before you judge that statement be aware, I used to fit into that category, so I'm speaking from experience.

I do compete but that's really only because my good friend has encouraged me to do so. If I couldn't go to any big competitions it really wouldn't bother me very much. This year I've managed to shoot two shoots the entire year and that includes IBO indoors. I got into archery for the simple enjoyment of firing arrows. Over time I've grown passionate about bowhunting but even if I couldn't do that I'd still be out shooting. I digress but the point is I don't view myself as a competitive target type of guy. I'm an archer who simply loves to shoot whether its at animals, targets, or dandelions and stumps.

Chris


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