# Bow tillered for three under...



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I use 3-under and all but 2 of my primary large-game recurves have/had a standard tiller (split-finger), but I have never had any problems tuning the standard tillered bows to shoot quiet and shoot well. However, the 2 that are tillered for 3-under are quieter out of the box and have a very smooth draw; with my latest bow, a White Wolf 58' 'curve, being surprisingly quiet. Bow is equipped with a 12-strand D75 Flemish FF with a double served nylon serving. Tony from White Wolf has his own design with making the string. Bow goes "thump" in the night.

I know that there are those that believe and will argue that having a bow tillered for 3-under is a waste of time and does nothing to quiet the bow or enhance shootability for a 3-under release. To them I say; don't waste your time trying to convince _me _that tillering for 3-under is nothing but hype; I have shot and own(ed) many bows and I know from (my) experience I can definitely detect the difference (benefit).


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

More likely the noise is coming from the release with 3 under. Split is cleaner since you don't have so much pressure under the arrow. I set my tiller to positive 1/4" although I shoot my Sage fine and its closer to 1/8".


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Split is cleaner since you don't have so much pressure under the arrow._


I suspect that there are particular bows; length, materials, etc, that may be loud(er) when using 3-under no matter what you do to eliminate or reduce the noise. But if the bow/arrows are tuned properly and excessive noise is factually and knowingly being caused by a 3-under release, my first suspicion is that the shooter is applying too much draw-pressure with the ring finger. Used correctly (3-under), there will be just 2 fingers beneath the nock that are actually applying the greater degree of draw and holding pressure; the same as with a split-finger release.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have found all my bows shoot quieter split finger. 

With that said I have only played around with three under a tad bit and in my opinion not enough to really know

I once asked Mike Fedora about tillering a bow for split finger vs three under. He said he tiller them he same


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I guess the hearing loss I incured while working on the railroad as an Engineer was a blessing in disquise. I lost 48% of my hearing running those locomotives. I don't hear much of anything on release,....... come to think of it, I don't hear much of anything at all. I have to turn up the TV where my wife has to get up and leave and at the movies, I have to wear those headsets(BTW, they are dandy) to hear what they are saying. All I hear is a quiet thump and when it hits the target a wrap! Really sounds great when its in the Xring....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Every recurve or longbow I've had has been tillered for split finger shooting. They all shoot fine when shot three under, but always a bit louder than when shot split. No matter how I adjust the nock point the bows have more vibration and noise when shot three under. I'm not talking horrible noise and vibration here, just enough more to be annoying. I like that nice quiet "thump", with minimal residual limb vibration, that I can get shooting split finger. Never been able to get it shooting three under.
> 
> Does anybody have any experience with bows tillered _specifically_ for three under? If so are they quieter than a bow tillered for split fingers but shot with three under? If you have an ILF bow where you can adjust the tiller, can you get it as quiet as a good recurve that is tillered and shot split finger?


EK: I've been wondering that same thing and have been thinking about toying around with "Limb Shims"..like my Bob Lee TD has the rubber padding between the limbs and riser?..if i patterned and cut out a slightly thicker pad for the top limb?..i would think it would move the pre-load/center higher..which is where bows being shot 3under like their nock points to be...slightly higher..so the top limb would be tillered stronger than the bottom just like a bowyer would do when tillering for...3 under...think i might try and see since i have access to a machine shop with a variety of sheet rubber.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Jinx, Good luck with that.....


Does anybody have any experience with bows tillered specifically for three under?.......yes.....3 under/even tiller.


If so are they quieter than a bow tillered for split fingers but shot with three under?...Can be, but it's not about quiet.... quiet has nothing to do with tiller...unless the tiller is so far off the bow should be sent back.......Tiller is about balance.


If you have an ILF bow where you can adjust the tiller, can you get it as quiet as a good recurve that is tillered and shot split finger? yes, sure can, if I couldn't I might as well start making trash cans....


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> EK: I've been wondering that same thing and have been thinking about toying around with "Limb Shims"..like my Bob Lee TD has the rubber padding between the limbs and riser?..if i patterned and cut out a slightly thicker pad for the top limb?..i would think it would move the pre-load/center higher..which is where bows being shot 3under like their nock points to be...slightly higher..so the top limb would be tillered stronger than the bottom just like a bowyer would do when tillering for...3 under...think i might try and see since i have access to a machine shop with a variety of sheet rubber.


I'd be interested in hearing how it works if you get a chance to do this...:thumbs_up


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

voodoofire1 said:


> Jinx, Good luck with that.....
> 
> 
> Does anybody have any experience with bows tillered specifically for three under?.......yes.....3 under/even tiller.
> ...


Are you saying that if you had two identical bows, one tillered specifically for three under and one tillered split, the one tillered 3U would not necessarily be any quieter than the split finger bow shot three under?

I thought tiller was an imbalance built into the limbs that corrected for the fact that we don't pull the bow from the exact center of the string. I'm not a bowyer so clear that up for me if I'm wrong. The limbs are allowed to bend different amounts in an effort to even out the greater stress on the lower limb caused by not pulling in the center of the bow. I can see the balance part, or how the bow sits in your hand, but I would think having a bow properly tillered for the style of shooting would minimize the amount of energy that went into the limbs after the shot, making the bow quieter...?..:set1_thinking: 

I was assuming that at least part of the increased noise I get with my split finger tillered recurves when I shoot them three under was that the built in tiller was incorrect for three under. Like I said before, they shoot fine...just a little noisier than when shot split. Maybe it's like Destroyer said and a bit more noise is just endemic to the three under style.


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## Yohon (Aug 28, 2003)

I notice the noise etc with split vs 3 under tillered bows too and thats why Ive come to love the ILF stuff, you can adjust that tiller to what shoots best for YOU.


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

I think the noise you hear shooting 3under will quieten as your release gets cleaner..but that's just me


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## eminart (Apr 2, 2012)

I am a complete novice, but what if you built your shelf up a little and raised your nocking point an equal amount? I think that could get your tiller closer to correct while shooting three under on a split finger tiller. That is assuming you're shooting off the shelf.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

eminart said:


> I am a complete novice, but what if you built your shelf up a little and raised your nocking point an equal amount? I think that could get your tiller closer to correct while shooting three under on a split finger tiller. That is assuming you're shooting off the shelf.


Everything, from whether the archer uses a higher wrist grip on the bow v. low grip, shelf height (off shelf v. elevated rest - many bows built to shoot both ways), string finger pressure, attachments to the bow, etc... all affect the dynamic tiller, which is related to the static tiller setting built into the bow. How much of a change in any of these will be noticeable is a matter of degrees. 

I shoot split and 3-under on my bows with the nock locator in the same position. For me, three fingers on the string is the same either way, still three fingers in the same location, but that's what works for me. 

So, basically, when you see "tillered for three under" advertised, it's just a way to sell bows under a base understanding of dynamic tiller, when in reality, there's so little to it, functionally, in consideration of moving one finger, when other aspects mentioned have just as much if not more affect on the dynamic tiller. IOW, advertising that way gives the Trad bowyer some credibility for building a bow specific to a shooter's needs, when if fact, tiller setting ultimately depends on much more after the bow is built.


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## eminart (Apr 2, 2012)

Sanford said:


> Everything, from whether the archer uses a higher wrist grip on the bow v. low grip, shelf height (off shelf v. elevated rest - many bows built to shoot both ways), string finger pressure, attachments to the bow, etc... all affect the dynamic tiller, which is related to the static tiller setting built into the bow. How much of a change in any of these will be noticeable is a matter of degrees.
> 
> I shoot split and 3-under on my bows with the nock locator in the same position. For me, three fingers on the string is the same either way, still three fingers in the same location, but that's what works for me.
> 
> So, basically, when you see "tillered for three under" advertised, it's just a way to sell bows under a base understanding of dynamic tiller, when in reality, there's so little to it, functionally, in consideration of moving one finger, when other aspects mentioned have just as much if not more affect on the dynamic tiller. IOW, advertising that way gives the Trad bowyer some credibility for building a bow specific to a shooter's needs, when if fact, tiller setting ultimately depends on much more after the bow is built.



I understand what you're saying. But, I think the tiller advertising is more than a way to sell bows. I think it is attention to detail. You can say it doesn't have a big effect, but if you do enough things that have little effects, you end up with a big effect. Why bother tillering at all? Just get it close, and that's good enough? Not for me. Maybe my form affects the arrow flight and bow performance more than a slight difference in how much one limb is bent. But, I'll always be striving to correct my form.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Not sure about this but it seems like the string would take the shape of the "D" before the arrow moved just based on one of Newtons laws about objects at rest. I just don't see (in my mind) a limb load difference on, an arrow after my fingers leave the string, that can't be corrected by nock point height and rest height.

I have wondered if a bower might ask me if I am a three under shooter just so he could miss the tiller a tiny bit and still sell me the bow. (just a thought, I am really not sure)

Note: On bows that have tiller adjustments I have found them handy in tuning. In bows that don't have tiller adjustments I have found others ways to do the same thing.

Just to be clear: folks that are much better shots than I might notice things I don't notice.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

eminart said:


> I understand what you're saying. But, I think the tiller advertising is more than a way to sell bows. I think it is attention to detail. You can say it doesn't have a big effect, but if you do enough things that have little effects, you end up with a big effect. Why bother tillering at all? Just get it close, and that's good enough? Not for me. Maybe my form affects the arrow flight and bow performance more than a slight difference in how much one limb is bent. But, I'll always be striving to correct my form.


The person ordering a specific tiller to be built into a bow will be basing it on their "own" personal experiences, and no matter how they grip the string, 3-under or split, they may prefer positive tiller, neutral tiller, or negative tiller, as there's no requirement any tiller fits any one situation per every person. IOW, a "tiller for three under" for me is not the same tiller as a "tiller for three under" for the next guy. 

So, what does a guy like or need in his tiller, 1/4" positive, 1/8" positive, neutral, or anything in between? Depends on a lot of things, one, mainly, how discerning the guy is  - two, what has worked best for him in the past given the same setups. If he's buying a bow because it's "tillered for three under", he either knows his specific needs are neutral tiller or he don't know and is guessing based on what a bowyer says he needs.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"Are you saying that if you had two identical bows, one tillered specifically for three under and one tillered split, the one tillered 3U would not necessarily be any quieter than the split finger bow shot three under?"

Well it may or may not make a bit of difference when talking noise, as Sanford said, there are a lot of variables to consider after the bow is built...and before too....But that is truly with middle of the road stuff, with a bow properly built for you and you alone...the difference is definately in the details....and the ability to tell the difference comes with experience, and even then some can never tell, but for each one of those, there are fellas that can feel each and every nuance of anything they shoot, and I, being one of those, can tell you it is both good and bad, I wish I could have kept and enjoyed shooting some of the bows I've had pass through these hands, but a bow that is unbalanced at the shot won't be around me very long at all, now it most likely can be fixed, but I've ran into a few that in my opinion would make better tomato stakes than bows, and ILF is not a guarantee of balance or silence, I played around with a bow that I though had funky limbs..at any normal tiller setting...... but I put those limbs on a different riser and they felt great,again at any normal tiller........ so there is indeed many variables in tillering a bow...... design, construction, materials......all play a part.....and the trick is to get them all working in harmony with the chosen shooters style......and that's why I spend 2-4 hours, and sometimes more, talking to a customer before I start the build as 99% of my customers are extremely experienced shooters.....and no, I am not taking orders.


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## newmand3 (Nov 25, 2012)

Easykeeper said:


> Every recurve or longbow I've had has been tillered for split finger shooting. They all shoot fine when shot three under, but always a bit louder than when shot split. No matter how I adjust the nock point the bows have more vibration and noise when shot three under. I'm not talking horrible noise and vibration here, just enough more to be annoying. I like that nice quiet "thump", with minimal residual limb vibration, that I can get shooting split finger. Never been able to get it shooting three under.
> 
> Does anybody have any experience with bows tillered _specifically_ for three under? If so are they quieter than a bow tillered for split fingers but shot with three under? If you have an ILF bow where you can adjust the tiller, can you get it as quiet as a good recurve that is tillered and shot split finger?


I bought a BW in ‘94 split finger and began to learn to shoot instinctive....even killed a small buck. The problem I had though was I shot ok out to about 15 yards but accuracy fell off the table any further than that, say at 20. I ordered another about a month ago and talked to the guys there about shooting 3 under if my bow was tillered for split finger. They told me that it would be fine, just would have to nock a little higher but another option was a split tiller, which is the way they do their demo bows. I am having them tiller my bow this way so that if I decide to shoot split I’ll be close and if I decide to gap and shoot 3 under I’ll be close that way as well. I’m thinking I’ll be happy with that tiller.


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

If a bow is tillered split finger and you shoot 3 under, it‘ll just force you to change your NP higher to rebalance the bows performance. Either way, there is quite a big difference between top and bottom limb both in length from center and weight so that little bit of bias for 3 under or split finger is not going to upset the Apple cart too much. 

Just bareshaft tune and you’re good to go.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Without reading the whole thread, I'll offer my $.02. Yes tillering a bow to your shooting style makes a big difference.

I have played around with tiller on my ILF bows quite a bit. I like long fixed crawls for short hunting shots. In my experience, long crawls make the bows nasty sounding and rough in the hand at even tiller. And the string hurts my ring finger. My current rig is tuned for a 15yd point on. It has a very long fixed crawl tied on, a super high nock point, and 1/4" negative tiller. It is acceptably quiet and is shooting bare shafts with fletched at 30yds. The big negative tiller split makes it much more comfortable on my fingers, and the bow feels happier as well.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Broncman (Jul 14, 2020)

I feel a lot has to do with limb design, basic 3 under or a drastic crawl. Lit of variables that can be huge.
I have 5 trad bows. One ILF with carbon foam limbs, One take down recurve, a one piece recurve, a traditional D longbow and a R/D longbow. 

The 2 longbows have skinny limbs.O shoot them 3 under and they are the quietest. The ILF is just as quiet.

The 2 recurves have wide limbs. They are horrible. Takes a good string puff and they are still some noise no matter how I shoot them.


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