# knotless string loops



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You have pic or link?


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## 3children (Aug 10, 2008)

I have them in stock, but you have to take the string off first, second more expensive. Most of us that tie the loops on have never had one come untied. I see no reason to have one but have sold a few. I don;t think I will ever use one myself, and I don't think serving will change anything. One thing I have noticed that they are not as stiff as my loop rope.


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## mmich (Sep 12, 2005)

This is the picture.

If I was to make my own, then the serving would be important. Good to know that the manufacturered one is not stiff, I like a loop material that doesn't flatten over time.


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## gbear (May 30, 2009)

*not stiff???*

i don't know about the rock-it in the op, but the 'original' from r enterprises is way stiffer than any conventional loop material


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## harden13 (Oct 20, 2006)

I have used them and made my own both and they have no practicle improvement over a tied in loop and are more difficult to change should you need to do so.

Marc:darkbeer::beer::darkbeer:


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## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

shoot them out of a hooter shooter and you would be suprised.

ask GRIV to post pics of his findings, it is rather scarey.


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## soonerboy (Sep 6, 2004)

What was his findings???


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## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

pics taken from GRIV's facebook....

hooter shooter at 70m









regular d-loop









torqueless loop in various positions of the release aid.


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## yakstone (Jun 30, 2008)

Impressive. I would like to know more details about this process and what the variables were.


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## mikegallo (Nov 14, 2008)

*lOOPED*

i WANT SOME!


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

how in the world do you get it on??


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## bowman_77 (May 4, 2009)

3children said:


> I have them in stock, but you have to take the string off first, second more expensive. Most of us that tie the loops on have never had one come untied. I see no reason to have one but have sold a few. I don;t think I will ever use one myself, and I don't think serving will change anything. One thing I have noticed that they are not as stiff as my loop rope.





petrey10 said:


> how in the world do you get it on??


Like one of the posters said the string as to come off, or at least one end of it.


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## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

Help me understgand as a old fart 68 years young why you would use a hotter shooter on your field range or practice area to vailidate you have the bow setup correct and or arrow is tuned for the bow ? Why you would buy a mfg D lopp that you have to take the string off to get on ???


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## abruno25 (Feb 12, 2010)

*loops?*

where do i get one of these torqueless loops?


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## SSNIGHTMARE (Mar 26, 2005)

http://www.keystonecountrystore.com...It_Outdorrs_Super_Loop/Page_1/STA2235004.html


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## abruno25 (Feb 12, 2010)

*?*

what makes them more accurate then the regular string loop?


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## Bowman Dan (Feb 15, 2007)

*X2*



abruno25 said:


> what makes them more accurate then the regular string loop?


x2
:wink:


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## bowhunterprime (Jan 28, 2009)

abruno25 said:


> what makes them more accurate then the regular string loop?


x3!! Please someone explain this. -Chris


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## dugy40 (May 28, 2010)

*skeptical*

I am sorry but i am skeptical that there could be that much difference in the loops. I just dont believe it. I dont disbelieve it either, but thats just how i am. how could a knotless one shoot so much better? it dont make sense


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## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

OMG! You dirty little picture thieves!:wink::tongue:

Here's the deal.. There are several photos that are not included above that would explain things a lot better. 

First of all, we are talking about two different Loops. One is a regular D-loop made of string material. The other is a Torque-less D-loop.










The difference you see in the two groups are tested with a shooting machine at 70M. The release angle was changed every shot during both groups. Basically I torqued it every shot a different way to see how it affected the group. 

And you see how it ended up. Since this test I have tried it again on a maxxis and got nearly the same result.


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## bowhunterprime (Jan 28, 2009)

GRIV said:


> One is a regular D-loop made of string material. The other is a Torque-less D-loop.
> Basically I torqued it every shot a different way to see how it affected the group.


Thanks for the insite GRIV. So what your saying is that a Torque-less D-loop is more forgiving for shooters who suffer from torqueing the bow on the shot. Is that about right? Also, is it possible to make a Torque-less D-loop from bow string material? I'd like to try this out. -Chris


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## Washi (Jan 23, 2005)

Please show us how you go about making/installing/using a Torque-less D-loop.


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## dugy40 (May 28, 2010)

*torqless?*

I dont see the difference myself,both tie the same way or should i say holds on to the string the same way, except one doesnt have a burnt end of a string, both are the same knots.Both are half hitch knots, so you cant call it a knotless. you might call it a neverending d-loop or something else, but its still a knot


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## bowhunterprime (Jan 28, 2009)

dugy40 said:


> I dont see the difference myself,both tie the same way or should i say holds on to the string the same way, except one doesnt have a burnt end of a string, both are the same knots.Both are half hitch knots, so you cant call it a knotless. you might call it a neverending d-loop or something else, but its still a knot


But if one is torqueless then it would be different.


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## bowhunterprime (Jan 28, 2009)

ttt....can anyone else shed some light on the pros/cons of these d-loops?


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

I would think it would be quite easy to make one... its just a mini string... what makes it torq-less tho? to me it would seem like its going to tight down when you draw just like a regular d-loop... somebody needs to setup with some info here....


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## lzeplin (Jan 19, 2008)

I would also like to know more about this,,I sent GRIV a pm a couple days ago asking if he could explain it a little more but he hasn't answered me back,,:sad: my question is how do you put on your nock above it and just use a brass,, or below??


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## bowhunterprime (Jan 28, 2009)

I've been tinkering around with them for the past few days and found a good way to make one and put it on the bow. So far they seem ok. I can spin the d-loop all the way around the string (so it's torqueless) but I can't move the loop up or down the string, but that might be because my serving is starting to separate in this area (this is from the previous d-loop not the new ones). I'm in the process of re-building the string and cables on this bow so after I get it done I'll put a torqueless d-loop on and see what happens. I'll repost after I get it done. That might take some time so if anyone wants to know how I've been making them just let me know. -Chris


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## lzeplin (Jan 19, 2008)

ttt


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

dugy40 said:


> I dont see the difference myself,both tie the same way or should i say holds on to the string the same way, except one doesnt have a burnt end of a string, both are the same knots.Both are half hitch knots, so you cant call it a knotless. you might call it a neverending d-loop or something else, but its still a knot


When you twist your release hand you torque a typical d-loop because it has 2 attachment points let's say .25" apart. Torqueing the d-loop torques the string. 

When you torque your release hand using the d-loop Griv speaks of there is very _little_ torque transferred to the string and it's at small point. The d-loop "cord" connecting this type of d-loop to the string can twist transferring little torque to the string. The name "knot less" d-loop for this type of loop is merely idnetify from a typical d-loop.


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## lzeplin (Jan 19, 2008)

anyone else??


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> When you twist your release hand you torque a typical d-loop because it has 2 attachment points let's say .25" apart. Torqueing the d-loop torques the string.
> 
> When you torque your release hand using the d-loop Griv speaks of there is very _little_ torque transferred to the string and it's at small point. The d-loop "cord" connecting this type of d-loop to the string can twist transferring little torque to the string. The name "knot less" d-loop for this type of loop is merely to identify from a typical d-loop.


 I mixed up Torque-less and knot-less d-loops. In the above post I'm talking about what Griv has in his pic. 

Using a regular d-loop really twist your hand beyond or opposite your normal anchor while shooting some arrows. You'll have a completely different and probably ugly group.


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## abruno25 (Feb 12, 2010)

GRIV said:


> OMG! You dirty little picture thieves!:wink::tongue:
> 
> Here's the deal.. There are several photos that are not included above that would explain things a lot better.
> 
> ...


ok this shows that the ancor point of the loop is at one spot conpared to a 
D-loop that has 2 ancor point on the string... with the torque-less D loop where do you knock the arrow?


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## AllenRead (Jan 12, 2004)

bowhunterprime said:


> ... So what your saying is that a Torque-less D-loop is more forgiving for shooters who suffer from torqueing the bow on the shot...


Since he said that he set the release at a different angle for each shot, I think he meant that he was torquing the release, not torquing the bow. 

Hopefully GRIV will correct me if I misunderstood.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

abruno25 said:


> ok this shows that the ancor point of the loop is at one spot conpared to a
> D-loop that has 2 ancor point on the string... with the torque-less D loop where do you knock the arrow?


I've only seen the arrow nocked directly above the d-loop attachment point.



AllenRead said:


> Since he said that he set the release at a different angle for each shot, I think he meant that he was torquing the release, not torquing the bow.
> 
> Hopefully GRIV will correct me if I misunderstood.


I'm sure GRIV was torquing the release since he was testing d-loops. If you twist your hand at anchor a short d-loop twists the string a lot more than a long d-loop. I use a short d-loop if I change the twist force on the release I can really make an arrow fly different. A long d-loop will take up more twist applying less torque to the string. Using a "torque-less" d-loop properly installed I don't think you can impart enough torque on the string with a close to normal anchor to really mess up arrow flight.


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## bowhunterprime (Jan 28, 2009)

AllenRead said:


> Since he said that he set the release at a different angle for each shot, I think he meant that he was torquing the release, not torquing the bow.
> 
> Hopefully GRIV will correct me if I misunderstood.


After re-reading GRIV's post I agree with you. I think he meant torquing the release.


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## special (Apr 6, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> When you twist your release hand you torque a typical d-loop because it has 2 attachment points let's say .25" apart. Torqueing the d-loop torques the string.
> 
> When you torque your release hand using the d-loop Griv speaks of there is very _little_ torque transferred to the string and it's at small point. The d-loop "cord" connecting this type of d-loop to the string can twist transferring little torque to the string. The name "knot less" d-loop for this type of loop is merely idnetify from a typical d-loop.


Yep..Because both ends contact the string closer to each other(when used like GRIV has) twisting the release doesnt effect the string as much..
Ive seen several champions using this style...It also puts downward pressure on the shaft to prevent lifting off the blade whilwe drawing..And when fitted in the manner that GRIV has you dont need to remove the string..Just make a small loop and thread it thru itself.

I have made several of them..But so far I have only used them as 'safety' loops on my draw board when attaching to the loop.


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## AGPank (Sep 5, 2008)

Very interesting info, thanks for the thread. I saw thread awhile back showing how to tie a know similar to this with string material. That thread failed to mention the theory behind the method.


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

and it doesn't cinch down at all?? it moves?? thats pretty sweet.... do you still use knot thread to make a knock point above and below the arrow? or do you say forget and just let the arrow rest on the loop??


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

how many strands are you guys using???


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## lzeplin (Jan 19, 2008)

how do you nock the arrow??? I asked griv if he would explain this a little more but he wont answer me,,,ukey: maybe he dont want to give away all his secrets,


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## ka30270 (May 20, 2009)

lzeplin said:


> how do you nock the arrow??? I asked griv if he would explain this a little more but he wont answer me,,,ukey: maybe he dont want to give away all his secrets,


X2 Above or below..... Seems like below but to hear everyone talk is sounds like above.

Clarafication please............


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## GWN_Nuge (Oct 1, 2004)

What I'm curious about is if there has been any comparison between a knotless string loop and shooting a hinge-style release with a rope directly off the string?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

lzeplin said:


> how do you nock the arrow??? I asked griv if he would explain this a little more but he wont answer me,,,ukey: maybe he dont want to give away all his secrets,





ka30270 said:


> X2 Above or below..... Seems like below but to hear everyone talk is sounds like above.
> 
> Clarafication please............


I answered in an earlier post on this thread. The arrow is nocked above the loop attachment. You tie a nock set above the arrow nock. By lowering your attachment point you have effectively reduced your peep height. This could be a problem for some folks shooting longer ranges like 90 meters in FITA.

I think Rodger Willett was shooting the torque-less d-loop a couple of years ago (indoors?). I don't know if he used it all the time...... I don't know when or if he still does. It's actually been around for a long time.


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## Gunner7800 (Jul 11, 2007)

After looking through this thread, it reminds me of an older thread where people were dicussing how to tie P-loops and J-loops. Which is bascially the same as the clint's loopy, which also looks a heck of a lot like this torqueless loop. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find that thread again. 

In the mean time, here is a link to an article by John Dudley that discusses the different ways to tie nock points in.
Nock Point Tie-In


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## Bowman Dan (Feb 15, 2007)

*Ttt*

:teeth:


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## 2camsam (Sep 12, 2002)

Call me crazy but the group that GRIV shot from the regular d-loop looks alot like the group I have been plagued with for the last year ! I thought is was me , it could still be, but this torqueless loop may be the answer that I have been looking for ! I'm gonna try to make one. If you notice the group is diagonal as opposed to the round group with the torqueless. Maybe d-loops aren't as foolproof as we once thought. The question I have is if the knots should be above and below the arrow nock or tied below as GRIV has them ??


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## petrey10 (Oct 24, 2008)

with the knotless you can straddle the nock like your basic d loop or you can go below if you have a rest like the limbdriver. below will give you some downward pressure to keep the arrow on the forks of the rest.... again when you make one make sure it is fat enough to work with ur release as I ended up finding out the hard way by punching myself in the mouth...


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## 2camsam (Sep 12, 2002)

Since I have a limb driver I'll try to use it under the nock. Meanwhile I'll try and make one first and thanks for the heads up on the thickness.


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## FiveOarcher (Sep 21, 2006)

*torque-less loop*



special said:


> Yep..Because both ends contact the string closer to each other(when used like GRIV has) twisting the release doesnt effect the string as much..
> Ive seen several champions using this style...It also puts downward pressure on the shaft to prevent lifting off the blade whilwe drawing..And when fitted in the manner that GRIV has you dont need to remove the string..Just make a small loop and thread it thru itself.
> I have made several of them..But so far I have only used them as 'safety' loops on my draw board when attaching to the loop.


im interested in how you did this. could you show a pic or send me an email? "[email protected]"

thanks,


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

can pics be posted of this loop


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

It would seem that you could tie a catfish loop and have both ends at the bottom of the nock like a P loop and have the best of all loops. I have used the catfish loop before but I have never tried the P loop attachment. So maybe next week I will make up the ultimate catfish p loop.

If you are not familiar with the catfish loop, you can maybe do a search and find it. It is made from serving material and it is all hand tied. You don't have to remove your string to tie on a catfish loop.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I started to make a catfish loop and I now remember why I quit using them. Too much trouble.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

any more info on how to make this loop or a loppy used by some great shooters


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

why is a p loop under nock better then a catfish loop under nock


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## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

So who has actually used this set up? It sounds great.


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

Tag for later


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## fotal (Jul 25, 2011)

I tried the torque less d loop style but seem to have had problems w the center serving being grabed and twisted loose by the multiple strand when drawing back. Did I do something wrong. Is there a way to position the knot so it doesn't pull? Had the same problem with a regular catfish loop. Oh. I do like the way they shoot, just want to stop them from in twisting my serving. Any thoughts?


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