# Hoyt gmx or rx



## Ddragon (Aug 29, 2012)

Hi,
I'm in the market for a new recurve riser. What's the better riser? A Gmx or Rx?

Thanks


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## haloist (Apr 11, 2011)

They're both amazing risers. The GMX is great because it accepts IFL (international fitted limbs) which means you won't have to spend extra for Hoyt Formula limbs (fitted for Hoyt Formula bows only). The Hoyt Formula RX is also a great riser, but the only drawback is that it won't accept IFL unless you buy a converter for it. They're both top of the line.


Hoyt Formula RX

Pros: 
- Nice Innovative Design
- Aesthetically Pleasing
- Great limbs if you can afford the formula limbs

Cons:
- Does not accept IFL unless you get a converter


Hoyt GMX

Pros:
- Aesthetically Pleasing
- Accepts IFL (most limbs on the market are IFL bc that's the standard)

Cons:
- None really, it's a great riser.


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

one pro for the gmx is that it comes in 23" incase you need a short riser for a shorter person.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've shot both, and I prefer the RX riser to the GMX. However, that locks you into Hoyt's formula limbs, which are both pricey, and notoriously slow. Unless you spring for the F7 limbs, which I've seen perform pretty well. But man are they expensive.

John


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

Both are great options, I prefer the RX. Why not consider the HPX and pick up some more speed while you are at it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I wouldn't recommend the HPX without knowing an archer's draw length.


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## Ddragon (Aug 29, 2012)

Hi
Thanks all. I pulled the trigger, so to speak, and ordered the rx last night from Lancaster. Purchased the 25 inch riser. A lt of plots seem to be back ordered?

There's a limber adapter I'm curious about. If its ILF won't it fit other ILF limbs and not just the manufacturer's limbs?

This may sound all wrong, but I may put the excel limbs on it to start. This is my first recurve. I'm shooting a Hoyt compound for spots and thought I'd give it a try. But I didn't want to cheap out on the riser and later want to upgrade.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

I have the GMX, RX and FPX risers.
I like all 3 but if I had to keep just one it would be the GMX. it is heaver and requires less stabilization. The RX and FPX are nice but the formula limbs (hoyt) do not feel as well as a Win&Win limb. All being the same weight and length. The F7 wood is much better than the F3.. In the end it's what you fell better shooting. At the end of the day I feel much better after shooting the GMX with W&W Inno EX power limbs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If its ILF won't it fit other ILF limbs and not just the manufacturer's limbs


I don't see why not. I've wondered exactly the same thing. I think it's worth a try at least. If you do try it, report back here so we'll know.



> This may sound all wrong, but I may put the excel limbs on it to start. This is my first recurve. I'm shooting a Hoyt compound for spots and thought I'd give it a try. But I didn't want to cheap out on the riser and later want to upgrade.


Your thinking is exactly right IMO. Go for it.

John


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Ddragon said:


> Hi
> Thanks all. I pulled the trigger, so to speak, and ordered the rx last night from Lancaster. Purchased the 25 inch riser. A lt of plots seem to be back ordered?
> 
> There's a limber adapter I'm curious about. If its ILF won't it fit other ILF limbs and not just the manufacturer's limbs?
> ...


Just make sure you get the correct excel limbs See here: http://www.hoytrecurve.com/recurve_bows/hoyt_recurve_limbs.php

They make a Formula Excel limbs and a Competition Excel (for ILF).

I agree, start with the lower costing limbs to ease into your peak poundage. You will probably move up eventually. Your formula RX riser has a proprietary mounting system that only Hoyt Limbs fit (although I have heard rumblings on and off that one or two other companies might produce limbs for it).


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

"didn't want to cheap out on the riser and later want to upgrade"

Same here, I ordered a GMX riser the other day.


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## Ddragon (Aug 29, 2012)

Thanks for confirmation that I'm doing it right. Or at least my thought process is correct.

Yes, I did notice that. I'll make sure I get the formula excel limbs.

Btw...I'll add, i have nothing against the gmx. I read a copule of reviews about the new rx technology. And I have a hoyt contender that is similar in design that I really like... But in the end. I liked the looks better. I'm not sure if that's a valid reason, but it was part of my criteria as well as performance. 

Cheers


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Ddragon said:


> Btw...I'll add, i have nothing against the gmx. I read a copule of reviews about the new rx technology. And I have a hoyt contender that is similar in design that I really like... But in the end. I liked the looks better. I'm not sure if that's a valid reason, but it was part of my criteria as well as performance.


My thought process was much the same, and I liked the looks of the RX better, but went with the GMX for its practicality.... Ten years ago I would have ordered the RX. The older I get, it seems the more practical I get...8^)


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## Ddragon (Aug 29, 2012)

Zbone said:


> My thought process was much the same, and I liked the looks of the RX better, but went with the GMX for its practicality.... Ten years ago I would have ordered the RX. The older I get, it seems the more practical I get...8^)


Lol. Thanks  actually this is my "mid-life" crisis hobby  I'm closer to the end than the beginning as I like to say


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

8^)))


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## Inukshuk (Aug 21, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I wouldn't recommend the HPX without knowing an archer's draw length.


Why is that? Is there a optimum draw length for performance from this riser?


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

While waiting on a GMX riser in the color I want, have the option of going with the RX, so was wondering is there an available limb adapter to fit ILF limbs to install on the RX? ...Thanx for any response.


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

Zbone said:


> While waiting on a GMX riser in the color I want, have the option of going with the RX, so was wondering is there an available limb adapter to fit ILF limbs to install on the RX? ...Thanx for any response.


Sky & Border can provide limbs that fit the formula system, and these are 2 premier limb manufacturers. However, there does not seem to be good lower limb price options that are compatible with formula


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Border and Kaya can produce limbs for the formula system. Jim Belcher at SKY has told me he has decided to stop doing this, as there is no proven advantage to the system over ILF, and it's not as simple to do as it may seem. 

There is at least one adapter for the Ukka limbs that allows their ILF limb to be used on a formula riser.



> Why is that? Is there a optimum draw length for performance from this riser?


HPX has more of a neutral geometry (less deflex in the riser) and IMO would be less forgiving for an archer with a long draw length (over 31" or so). For anyone drawing more than 31" I'd be inclined to recommend the RX over the HPX. For those that draw less than 31" I think the HPX is a good option to have. If you know a little about the origin of the HPX riser, it started with an archer who was short statured. Much like PSE making less deflexed risers for Staten Holmes and Ashley Kamuf to give them a little more performance boost at their draw lengths. It makes sense for some, but not for everyone.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If Hoyt does not offer clear guidance to archers on their website as to whether they should select the HPX or RX risers, then they should. There is a significant difference between them that an archer should understand before they make their selection.

John


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Wait on the GMX!!


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## Old Newbie (Apr 14, 2011)

John, please elaborate on the HPX and its relationship a person's draw. Going through issues trying to tune mine as we speak.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Old Newbie said:


> John, please elaborate on the HPX and its relationship a person's draw. Going through issues trying to tune mine as we speak.


One simple tuning mistake I made on the HPX was to forget that the high grip adds a half inch to the draw length, compared to the Ergo grip on my previous bow. This difference is about equal to a half a spine, but because I had already chosen arrows on the weak side, I ended up having to abandon those shafts and go with a stiffer set of shafts. (I'm using Carbon One shafts, so these wasn't a terribly expensive mistake, fortunately.)


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

HikerDave said:


> One simple tuning mistake I made on the HPX was to forget that the high grip adds a half inch to the draw length, compared to the Ergo grip on my previous bow. This difference is about equal to a half a spine, but because I had already chosen arrows on the weak side, I ended up having to abandon those shafts and go with a stiffer set of shafts. (I'm using Carbon One shafts, so these wasn't a terribly expensive mistake, fortunately.)


can i get around this problem by measuring to the plunger hole?


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

I have had no issues with tuning the HPX/F7 bow. The GMX with W&W EX Power limbs just tunes better!!!
Maybe the HPX with the Sky limbs will shoot as well as the GMX/W&W..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Maybe the HPX with the Sky limbs will shoot as well as the GMX/W&W..


Oh, I'm sure it would. Probably better in fact, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

I shot the RX riser and it's a darn good riser. I can just imagine how good it would be mated to a pair of Jim's SKY limbs. 

But the man only has so much time in the day...

John


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

ksarcher said:


> Wait on the GMX!!


Yeah I think I'm gonna, but mid December is a long wait, I want my hand on this puppy...8^)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The GMX is a good riser, like most all of Hoyt's risers, but frankly it's not going to do anything for you that, say a PSE X-appeal, W&W, Samick, BEST or Spig. ILF riser won't do. I found it to be a bit stiff and harsh feeling. Some folks are looking for that, so that's fine. And if you want to stick with Hoyt risers, that's fine too. But for the most part, a 25" ILF top-of-the-line riser from any manufacturer is going to shoot better than any archer can. So then it comes down to little refinements like which limb alignment system or which grip, and subjective things like feel and brand loyalty. 

John


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## normlefebvre (Aug 21, 2010)

I've recently acquired a Hoyt GMX to replace my aging and cracking TD4 Gold Medalist. I can't really say that it is a major improvement over a 1980 era riser. I came close to buy the Samick vision 2 or the SF archery forged plus riser. But after reading that the GMX was designed with the same blueprints as the original TD4 and that Oh jin Hyek shot 1386 in 2009 plus Ki Bo Bae who won the 2012 Olympics with it, I was convinced.

I also find Hoyt risers to be pricey but since I just turned 43, I had to spoiled myself. 

Norm


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

ksarcher said:


> I have had no issues with tuning the HPX/F7 bow. The GMX with W&W EX Power limbs just tunes better!!!
> Maybe the HPX with the Sky limbs will shoot as well as the GMX/W&W..


Why would one riser/limb combo "tune better" than another??...isnt the Tune a function of matching the bow arrow and archer together??....Seems to me that as long as any riser and limbs is mechanically functional within the limits of the archers needs, that they all should "Tune" as well as each other, , right??....maybe I'm missing something??...Please explain...Thanks!...............Jim


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## azl (Mar 4, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> ... subjective things like feel and brand loyalty.


Don't forget potential resale value. :wink:


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim, you are correct, and my comment may be biased slightly in that the heavier GMX with the EX Power limbs require less stabilization. It Jumps straight out of my hand and requires less perceived effort to shoot..

This is based on the same draw weight, using the same X10 arrow and shooting at the same 70 mtrs. I have not checked arrow speed but the W&W limb seems to shoot flatter than the F7. 

This comparison was made with a 25" GMX, 25"RX and 25" HPX. If all things were equal My preference would be the RX (1), HPX (2) and GMX (3). The GMX was a dog with the 990tx!!!

I am always biased toward Win&Win limbs. They are reliable and Win&Win has Outstanding Customer Service...


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

ksarcher said:


> Jim, you are correct, and my comment may be biased slightly in that the heavier GMX with the EX Power limbs require less stabilization. It Jumps straight out of my hand and requires less perceived effort to shoot..
> 
> This is based on the same draw weight, using the same X10 arrow and shooting at the same 70 mtrs. I have not checked arrow speed but the W&W limb seems to shoot flatter than the F7.
> 
> ...


KSArcher..Thanks for the reply...So, basically Your saying that for You, the GMX/W&W Power limb combo just shot better for Ya, and had a better shot reaction for You...Sounds fair enough....Interesting comment on the Hoyt F7 limbs...And the 990TX limbs...Since I'm shooting an FRX at the moment, I wish that Win & Win, and Samick would build some Formula limbs, I'd LOVE to see a Samick Masters , or Win Win Inno's that mounted to a Formula riser....I wonder how the MK Formula limbs shoot??.......Thanks, and Take care.........Jim


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

I would love to try the MK limbs on the Rx or HPX. I did notice the combination used in London!


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Harperman said:


> I wish that Win & Win, and Samick would build some Formula limbs, I'd LOVE to see a Samick Masters , or Win Win Inno's that mounted to a Formula riser....I wonder how the MK Formula limbs shoot??......Jim


MK Korea is the makers Samick Masters. The guy at Samick that was responsible for the limbs Samick Masters and Extremes left Samick and formed his own company. That company is MK Korea. Mk Korea does make limbs for the Formula bow as you stated. Samick is left with a restructuring and i dont think any of the top korean archers are shooting any new Samick limbs. 

MK Korea took the forms, and tech and design with them when they left Samick. 


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

_"I shot the RX riser and it's a darn good riser. I can just imagine how good it would be mated to a pair of Jim's SKY limbs. "_

My SKY limbs for my RX are in transit to me as we speak (I think I'm getting the last pair that will ever be made - instant classic!). I'll let you know if shooting this combo is a Marlboro moment...


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

icehaven said:


> can i get around this problem by measuring to the plunger hole?


No. The high grip just increases your draw length by 1/2 inch by moving the bow 1/2 inch farther away. So with the HPX take whatever draw length you measured on your low grip and just add 1/2 inch. Or move your low Ergo grip to the HPX.

There's a local shooter who is short of stature who has made his Formula RX into the equivalent of a Formula HPX by making a very deep custom grip, in effect moving the bow forward relative to his hand.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> There's a local shooter who is short of stature who has made his Formula RX into the equivalent of a Formula HPX by making a very deep custom grip, in effect moving the bow forward relative to his hand.


Which is essentially what led to the HPX in the first place...

John


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Harperman said:


> Why would one riser/limb combo "tune better" than another??...isnt the Tune a function of matching the bow arrow and archer together??....Seems to me that as long as any riser and limbs is mechanically functional within the limits of the archers needs, that they all should "Tune" as well as each other, , right??....maybe I'm missing something??...Please explain...Thanks!...............Jim


It's the feel of the limbs combined with the speed they can push. Hoyts seem to be on the slightly slower side than some of the others. At the end of the day, a few FPS can be made up in arrow weight or a tweak in pundage. The F7 foam core limbs are supposed to be a bit faster than the maple F7 limbs.

Some like snappy, some like a more dead feeling. That translates into the riser as John has pointed out in other threads with carbon versus aluminum risers. That's type of tuning on top of tuning the arrow. Tuning the arrow (king of like getting an alignment in the car), modding the limbs/riser with weight/feel (kind of like changing tires and suspension on the car)

It's hard not to spend a shed load of money to find out what feels nice. Hopefully you have some people close to you that will let them try things out.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Really in a predicament…. Want the GMX and have paid for it but delivery date delayed to the supplier until Dec 12, due to Hoyts new line coming out. 
I really what to hunt with the new riser during the rut of November, but you can’t hunt with what you don’t have in hand…. 
I’d go with the RX, even spend the extra hundred dollars for the HPX (I like a high grip) but don’t want to spend big dollars on limbs until I analyze what weight of limbs I can handle and be comfortable. With the GMX I can buy different sets of cheap limbs to learn what weight I want to purchase a high quality set in the future. Wish there was a place within a couple hours’ drive that has these risers in stock that I could handle. It might make help me make up my mind.

Decisions, decisions…


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You're trying to do too much with one bow IMO. If you need a hunting bow, get a hunting bow. Or, just get an ILF hunting riser or a Hoyt buffalo riser (Formula system) and use that to hunt with while you're waiting on the target riser.

You can use the same limbs. I use my competition limbs to hunt with all the time. Just put some camo limb socks over them and go hunt.

John


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

A hunting bow is not the issue, I own 7 custom traditional hunting bows from straight limb Howard Hill type longbows to Black Widow recurves and all of them are ready for the woods once strung, but after paying a grand or so on a riser and limbs, I want to hunt with this target bow and the issue being receiving one in that flat black color, that is another reason I want to go with the Hoyt line...


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Am kinda thinking about spending the extra and going with the HPX riser and Formula Excel limbs now.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

I love my HPX!


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## Ddragon (Aug 29, 2012)

Just received the rx riser. Very nice. What surprised me was it came with real wood, high grip .... Grip.... And best of all.... A Hoyt hat!


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

hehehe the hat always makes the purchase  Car dealers used to give you a hat with a new vehicle purchase, I think you still get a Stihl hat when you buy a new saw.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Actually the last set of Sky limb are in the Finishing process and should ship this week..


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Ddragon - Congrats on you new bow, I have a RX scheduled to arrive next Monday.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim will soon have a set of Formula style limbs that are in the 45#+ range..that is with 4 turns out on the limb bolts!!. They are carbon bamboo (Sky Longs). They are marked 36# at 28"..
This was the second set of the Formula style limbs that he had made for me, both having issues. I can sympathize with Jim on these issues and completely understand why he will no longer make them.. Too bad, I was really looking forward to shooting a good limb on the formula riser.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

ksarcher said:


> Jim will soon have a set of Formula style limbs that are in the 45#+ range..that is with 4 turns out on the limb bolts!!. They are carbon bamboo (Sky Longs). They are marked 36# at 28"..
> This was the second set of the Formula style limbs that he had made for me, both having issues. I can sympathize with Jim on these issues and completely understand why he will no longer make them.. Too bad, I was really looking forward to shooting a good limb on the formula riser.


KSarcher......Just wondering, why would there be any more issues making a Formula limb, than an ILF limb??...is the length difference of the limb butt that much of an issue?/..or is it the limbs making the requested poundage??...just wondering.....Take Care..............Jim


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

The first set was would not fit (butt end) into Formula riser (Too wide). Second set was ordered as 36# but were 45#+-. The second set did fit riser at limb bolt but was tight fit at dovetail thus not allowing for centering of limb.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

ksarcher said:


> The first set was would not fit (butt end) into Formula riser (Too wide). Second set was ordered as 36# but were 45#+-. The second set did fit riser at limb bolt but was tight fit at dovetail thus not allowing for centering of limb.


Hmmmm....Not good.....Thanks......Jim


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim tells me that building a longer limb is easy. Building a longer limb butt is, well, a pain in the butt. He also isn't interested in "validating" an unnecessary design, as the ILF system has proven itself too often, for too long now.

So for formula shooters, I'd suggest either getting out your checkbook for the F7's, or looking at the Korean brand (is it Kaya?) that will build a formula limb. I understand that Sid at Border will build a formula limb as well, but haven't seen one. 

Finally, I'm not sure why the limb adapter made by Ukka wouldn't work with any ILF limb if it works with their ILF limb. Maybe there is a reason, and I haven't seen one in person. It would be good to know the answer to that.

I'm all for people shooting the Formula risers as they are great risers. But so far I've only seen one Hoyt limb for the formula system that looked like it was worth shooting.

John


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Ddragon said:


> Just received the rx riser. Very nice. What surprised me was it came with real wood, high grip .... Grip.... And best of all.... A Hoyt hat!


I finally took a rasp to the high grip on my Hoyt HPX high grip to get a better fit. That grip is pretty soft and cuts down nicely. I cut out material to better fit the base of my thumb and rounded out the thumb side. After a bit of sanding and a touch of mineral oil that grip looks like it was made that way. I was emboldened to do so after reading all the grip threads here. This change has corrected a sharp yaw of the front stabilizer.

Go forth and customize that bow!


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Jim tells me that building a longer limb is easy. Building a longer limb butt is, well, a pain in the butt. He also isn't interested in "validating" an unnecessary design, as the ILF system has proven itself too often, for too long now.
> 
> So for formula shooters, I'd suggest either getting out your checkbook for the F7's, or looking at the Korean brand (is it Kaya?) that will build a formula limb. I understand that Sid at Border will build a formula limb as well, but haven't seen one.
> 
> ...


John, the Korean Formula limb maker is MK Korea, I'm still on the fence about ordering a set of these..Kinda disappointing that SKY isnt interested in validating and unnecessary limb mount design, I've owned a handful of ILF limbs and risers, and none of them were/are as precision fit as the Formula system, which makes the bow quiet, and very vibe-free after the shot...As for the Uukha limb, it looks as though it will only work with their limbs, due to the thinner limb butt section past the detent assembly of the Uukha limb...I'll probably end up with a set of Uukha's, and a set of the adapters, so I can shoot the Uukha's on my ILF risers, and my Formula and Buffalo riser...I've heard some real interesting things about the Uukha limbs, and when I first saw them, and read details on the limbs construction, I was pretty interested...Now if I can find a set of Uukha's in the specs that I want, IN STOCK, I will be able to see what's what concerning the Uukha limbs for myself....I've been told that the arrow speed is pretty good, and that they are extremely stiff in torsion..I'm not really sure how much torsional stiffness is actually needed, but with my release, I need all the hep I can get...L.O.L....The construction makes them look almost indestructible....Take care....Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

HikerDave said:


> I finally took a rasp to the high grip on my Hoyt HPX high grip to get a better fit. That grip is pretty soft and cuts down nicely. I cut out material to better fit the base of my thumb and rounded out the thumb side. After a bit of sanding and a touch of mineral oil that grip looks like it was made that way. I was emboldened to do so after reading all the grip threads here. This change has corrected a sharp yaw of the front stabilizer.
> 
> Go forth and customize that bow!


I've re-worked mine down a good bit as well.....I have a black plastic ERGO grip on order, though...I like that Ergo grip......Jim


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I've owned a handful of ILF limbs and risers, and none of them were/are as precision fit as the Formula system, which makes the bow quiet, and very vibe-free after the shot...


You should shoot my SKY bow sometime.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> You should shoot my SKY bow sometime.


I'd love to....But at my draw length, I'd barely open up the curves!...L.O.L....I'm shooting one of Your old risers right now, the silver/black speckled Radian that Viper got from 'ya....I love the Radians for the grip, the soft shot, the balance, and the clean, symmetrical lines of the riser.....You and Tony both took real good care of this Radian...The color is kinda funky, but it's unique looking, , that's for sure!!.......Take Care, John!............Jim


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I understand that Sid at Border will build a formula limb as well, but haven't seen one.


I can confirm they do, having seen several sets at the factory. It was actually a very simple step for them to take given the shape and design of their limb formers.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

we do, but we dont put bushes in the limbs for any short rods. The reason is that this part of the limb moves, no matter how much we try and stop it. and adding a rod to this moving part to us, REALLY doesnt make any sence. so if you want those bushes in the limb butts when we are not the company to seek formula limbs from.


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## gpb (Feb 14, 2009)

I have been shooting a formula 27" riser and borders HEX series limbs for a couple years now. I've really liked the formula riser, its slenderness in the wind, smooth feel on the shot and overall precision and straightness. Combined with my current set of HEX6bb2 limbs I feel I've got a really unique setup that is proving to be a tack driver. The limbs fit the riser very well and are longs giving me a 72" bow, but because of the limbs unique design they require a braceht of only 7.25". With a 30.75" draw I'm getting 43# at the click. Recently at our states 3d championships I kept getting questions about the bows speed. The officials had a chrono set up to check the compounds speed limit of 300fps, so I asked if I could check my recurve speed. Shooting an Easton Carbon one's 31" long with 120gr points I got an average with 3 shots of 220fps. The guy running the chrono was a bit amazed and so was I. You want a hot setup? Try one of these.


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