# Rope style tree strap and climbing stand



## cnelson120 (Aug 8, 2010)

That's very interesting. Let us know how it works when you test it. Good luck and stay safe.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Testing while climbing up and down is no problem. I can simulate me falling over the side with a weight of some kind but I haven't decided on how I'm going to test stand failure. Any ideas?


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## pacnate (Sep 23, 2009)

houser52 said:


> Testing while climbing up and down is no problem. I can simulate me falling over the side with a weight of some kind but I haven't decided on how I'm going to test stand failure. Any ideas?


Very carefully...lol. But great idea!


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## ackr13 (Nov 16, 2009)

The main thing i would be worried about is the rope being to low on the tree. It's seems that you would fall too far before it grabbed and stopped you. Higher the rope the shorter the fall. Nice idea though.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

pacnate said:


> Very carefully...lol. But great idea!


Lol, I know.

I probably shouldnt be too concerned about catastrophic stand failure. It would be very unlikely to have both the foot and seat part of the climber fail at the same time.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

*I see a different problem*



ackr13 said:


> The main thing i would be worried about is the rope being to low on the tree. It's seems that you would fall too far before it grabbed and stopped you. Higher the rope the shorter the fall.


I agree with this criticism. Also, by dragging your safety rope down with the top, when the top falls down you can fall back out of the stand and end up hanging by one or both feet upside down, because the safety line won't catch you. I had this happen to me many years ago, and barely survived the accident.

It takes me only seconds per "hitch" as I climb a tree to move my safety rope up or down as I climb.

I strongly recommend against this practice. I think the product (20 feet up?) is a bad one.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Schultz- can you explain a little more about going over backwards and the rope not catching you. I'm not following what you're saying. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

houser52 said:


> Schultz- can you explain a little more about going over backwards and the rope not catching you. I'm not following what you're saying.


Sure.

What happened to me. I was climbing a tree for the first time. My climber was a 'sit & climb' style. I came to 2 smaller branches that needed to be removed to climb past them. I chose to break them off. As they broke, and my body moved back away from the tree, I expected the top part of the stand to catch me. However, the motion also knocked the top part of the stand loose and it fell down on top of the lower part. I went backwards, and would have fallen head first to the ground, but one foot remained in the stirrup on the lower part of the stand. I was now hanging upside down. Not being an Olympic gymnast, I was unable to get back up on the stand. After hanging a while, my snared foot came loose, and I fell to the ground, happily not breaking my neck. 

So, I want my safety rope to remain high, and not possibly get pulled low with the top section if it falls. I own a couple of climbers today, both have demonstrated to me that either section can fall or slip several feet in the right conditions.

BTW, I'm sure an angel freed my foot. Look forward to thanking him some day.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Don Schultz said:


> Sure.
> 
> What happened to me. I was climbing a tree for the first time. My climber was a 'sit & climb' style. I came to 2 smaller branches that needed to be removed to climb past them. I chose to break them off. As they broke, and my body moved back away from the tree, I expected the top part of the stand to catch me. However, the motion also knocked the top part of the stand loose and it fell down on top of the lower part. I went backwards, and would have fallen head first to the ground, but one foot remained in the stirrup on the lower part of the stand. I was now hanging upside down. Not being an Olympic gymnast, I was unable to get back up on the stand. After hanging a while, my snared foot came loose, and I fell to the ground, happily not breaking my neck.
> 
> ...


Wow, what an ordeal. Sounds like you are one lucky guy and the angel saved your life that day. Glad you made it and able to tell about it.
I can see with that particular situation that you were in the quick climb system may or may not have helped much.

One thing I forgot to mention in my original post is that I wear a climbing style harness and connected in the front with very little slack. Whether my harness would make any difference in your type of situation, I hope I never have to find out.


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## Rhody Hunter (Jul 14, 2008)

I remember a manufacture making something similar to hold the rope just like you have it . Can't remember where . I may have to look around and see if I can find it


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## 5forks (Apr 20, 2010)

Its a good ideal but I kind of agree with comment about needing to be above you. If you use this while climbing make sure you reposition the rope higher above you when you get set up. But I think your greatest chance of falling is while climbing. I almost fell while climbing and I was using my harness and sliding it up as I went. Well the top section soiled and I went backwards but was able to grab the stand. I was using the strap and harness that came with the stand and the treestrap came loose. I must have not threaded the strap through properly. I would have landed on some pointed stobs from trimming some small trees at the base of my tree. I pay a lot closer attention now!


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

I would worry about the rope sinching correctly with it in tandem to the stand. The last thing you want is your safety line pinched loose as you "glide" down the bark.

I use a rope line with my climber as well - I always set the sinch before I move my stand. Yes, it takes a couple more seconds, but the hope is that I get that time reduced from my 9.8m/second/second descent.


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

House I think some confusion is coming in because you use a front hook up harness not a full body. You only have a foot or so in slack line maybe less. If the top section slips the rope should tighten pulling it out the clips immediately as oppose to the rope falling with the top section. A video showing this would help people understand. From near ground level you could unhook your top section let it fall.

This system wouldn't be a good idea with a full body harness way to much slack line. Just another reason to go with a rock climbing style harness.

One thing I'd suggests is to clip off the little tabs on the white connectors. Off course the one that isn't tie wrapped to the stand. Clip it so the hooks are more of a J shape than a O shape. This would aid in getting the rope in the holders & also cause less fraction in a fall.


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## Rewhaley5217 (Apr 15, 2005)

Ol man had something like this years ago but not sure where to find any information on it.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

cbigbear said:


> House I think some confusion is coming in because you use a front hook up harness not a full body. You only have a foot or so in slack line maybe less. If the top section slips the rope should tighten pulling it out the clips immediately as oppose to the rope falling with the top section. A video showing this would help people understand. From near ground level you could unhook your top section let it fall.
> 
> This system wouldn't be a good idea with a full body harness way to much slack line. Just another reason to go with a rock climbing style harness.
> 
> One thing I'd suggests is to clip off the little tabs on the white connectors. Off course the one that isn't tie wrapped to the stand. Clip it so the hooks are more of a J shape than a O shape. This would aid in getting the rope in the holders & also cause less fraction in a fall.


I experimented with the system yesterday. I used a rear bench shooting bag as weight(less than 2#) connected to the prusik on the tree strap. 

You are correct in saying that since my climbing harness is connected in the front and directly to the tree strap with a prusik loop I do have less than a foot of slack. 


Rolling the bag over the rear of the stand and letting it fall, it immediately released the tree strap from the clips and cinched around the tree, stopping the bag from hitting the ground. It actually performed better than I was expecting.

Also, if I am standing and the top section slips or slides down the tree, the strap releases immediately.


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## dinodonofrio (Jun 3, 2008)

Don Schultz said:


> Sure.
> 
> What happened to me. I was climbing a tree for the first time. My climber was a 'sit & climb' style. I came to 2 smaller branches that needed to be removed to climb past them. I chose to break them off. As they broke, and my body moved back away from the tree, I expected the top part of the stand to catch me. However, the motion also knocked the top part of the stand loose and it fell down on top of the lower part. I went backwards, and would have fallen head first to the ground, but one foot remained in the stirrup on the lower part of the stand. I was now hanging upside down. Not being an Olympic gymnast, I was unable to get back up on the stand. After hanging a while, my snared foot came loose, and I fell to the ground, happily not breaking my neck.
> 
> ...


I had the same thing happen I thought for sure my ankle was broken I fell and landed on the back on my neck on top of my backpack. Never will I come down a tree without a harness


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## Skunkworkx (Apr 2, 2011)

May not be good ???

But I connect to my top half of my API Bowhunter climber until I'm where I want to be up in the tree. If I fell, it still wouldn't be far.


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## gbienvenu (Aug 25, 2008)

Skunkworkx said:


> May not be good ???
> 
> But I connect to my top half of my API Bowhunter climber until I'm where I want to be up in the tree. If I fell, it still wouldn't be far.



Not a good idea at all. Stands are not designed for sudden impact forces that you would have from a fall.


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## Skunkworkx (Apr 2, 2011)

I understand that and keep the strap very short to almost tight.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

Rhody Hunter said:


> I remember a manufacture making something similar to hold the rope just like you have it . Can't remember where . I may have to look around and see if I can find it


He referenced it in the first post. It's made by "20 Feet Up" or a company by a similar name. That product is made for a flat nylon strap, not a rope. He is making his own for a rope. I am concerned that in either case, if the top section falls it will carry the safety rope down with it to near the climber's feet, much reducing the effectiveness of the safety rope/strap.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Don Schultz said:


> He referenced it in the first post. It's made by "20 Feet Up" or a company by a similar name. That product is made for a flat nylon strap, not a rope. He is making his own for a rope. I am concerned that in either case, if the top section falls it will carry the safety rope down with it to near the climber's feet, much reducing the effectiveness of the safety rope/strap.


 Thanks for your concern. That's why I posted my question on here. 

I've tried to go over most "what ifs" and I realize that anything can happen. Let's discuss it a little more.

As to your statement about the top section falling down near my feet... For this to happen More than likely I would have to be standing on the foot climber and no weight on the seat. If that happens the rope releases immediately and catches the tree while I'm still standing on the foot climber. No fall at all.

Another scenario could be that if the top section cable would break with me sitting on the seat I would probably be thrown backward. The rope would release immediately, grab the tree and/or the foot climber would stop my fall.

In both cases the bottom foot climber would still be there stopping or preventing the fall. If the foot climber should break too I still would be connected to the tree strap which is cinched around the tree.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

You still have doubts though, yes?

"If there is doubt, there is no doubt." Sounds like you don't even trust it - that means there's no doubt; you don't trust it.

Rock climbing harnesses are also a bad deal in trees. Linesman belts going up and down, and something to keep you upright if you end up stepping off. With a waist anchor point, you have a good chance of playing possum. Try keeping upright from a free fall off a wall sometime - my money says you're toes up and unhappy if you step off. You can't hold a tight line to the tree and still be able to move enough to hunt. There's very good reasons we strap from the top of our CG.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Shootin Jim said:


> You still have doubts though, yes?
> 
> "If there is doubt, there is no doubt." Sounds like you don't even trust it - that means there's no doubt; you don't trust it.
> 
> Rock climbing harnesses are also a bad deal in trees. Linesman belts going up and down, and something to keep you upright if you end up stepping off. With a waist anchor point, you have a good chance of playing possum. Try keeping upright from a free fall off a wall sometime - my money says you're toes up and unhappy if you step off. You can't hold a tight line to the tree and still be able to move enough to hunt. There's very good reasons we strap from the top of our CG.


Doubts? 
I have no doubts what so ever of whether I am safely protected from hitting the ground wearing my climbing harness or using any of my equipment. I have done my homework and lots of it, practiced extensively with my equipment and trust it 100%. If I didn't I wouldn't use it.

Have you had a bad experience with a climbing harness? What kind did you have?


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

Rock climbing harnesses are also a bad deal in trees. Linesman belts going up and down, and something to keep you upright if you end up stepping off. With a waist anchor point, you have a good chance of playing possum. Try keeping upright from a free fall off a wall sometime - my money says you're toes up and unhappy if you step off. You can't hold a tight line to the tree and still be able to move enough to hunt. There's very good reasons we strap from the top of our CG.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying a rock climbing harness will turn you upside down in a fall?

Free fall off a wall & 1' ft fall from a stand not nearly the same.

I can hunt 360 degrees sitting or standing with my Alpine BOD with no more than a ft of slack.

What is the good reason for hooking up at your back? What is your self rescue plan with your back hook up harness?

Sorry to jack your thread House as this has nothing to do with your quick climb system, but I'd like to understand SJ concerns.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

houser52 said:


> ...As to your statement about the top section falling down near my feet... For this to happen More than likely I would have to be standing on the foot climber and no weight on the seat.


 Yes that is the scenario I am concerned about.


houser52 said:


> If that happens the rope releases immediately and catches the tree while I'm still standing on the foot climber. No fall at all.


 Well, I'm not quite seeing why that has to happen. But it is something you can readily demonstrate to yourself in controlled conditions. Sounds to me like you are being careful. 

I am in agreement with your "Another scenario". Bottom line for me is to keep my safety rope fully independent of what the stand is doing. I consider the time penalty of moving the rope up and down with each "hitch" of the stand insignificant.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

Quote Originally Posted by Skunkworkx View Post
May not be good ???

But I connect to my top half of my API Bowhunter climber until I'm where I want to be up in the tree. If I fell, it still wouldn't be far.



gbienvenu said:


> Not a good idea at all. Stands are not designed for sudden impact forces that you would have from a fall.


I think having a fully redundant connection to the tree is very important. A single point of failure in the top section of the stand could take you down without it.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

The difference in falling off a wall and staying upright and falling off a tree and going toes up is slack in the line. You never have it with someone keeping you taught. In this scenario, you never have a taught line. That's the problem here. You're all planning for best case scenarios, and due to lack of experience, you seem oblivious to the flaws in the design.

I don't get the feeling many here have been rock climbing much (fake walls don't count) - nature is unforgiving: plan for the worst.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

:BangHead::frusty:


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## 'Chew (Mar 1, 2012)

Shootin Jim said:


> The difference in falling off a wall and staying upright and falling off a tree and going toes up is slack in the line. You never have it with someone keeping you taught. In this scenario, you never have a taught line. That's the problem here. You're all planning for best case scenarios, and due to lack of experience, you seem oblivious to the flaws in the design.
> 
> I don't get the feeling many here have been rock climbing much (fake walls don't count) - nature is unforgiving: plan for the worst.


Has anyone here who wears a rear attach traditional harness jumped out of their stand and tried to get back in or down?

I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly asking. 

Dangling like a turtle with the connection point behind me and 3 feet above my head is not where I want to be. Not to mention the pressure being placed on your legs that literally gives you a handful of minutes to either get back in or down before things get even worse.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

Thats why you have recovery straps in a pouch on your hunting harness...

You need to try doing all these acrobatic recovery moves wearing full winter clothes and a lowered core temp like you'll have in late season. Do that and come back telling me how great your climbing rig worked for you. You will be weaker, you will be tired, and you'll most likely die stuck in a tree unless your cell phone works. You already made a mistake that got you "hung" to be in this situation to begin with.

Houser, you might think I'm being a pain, but the truth is that I care enough to tell you about a problem I see. I'd be just as vocal if you said you were going to use 3/4" utility rope instead of climbing line.

Just so you know: I carry an extra biner and prussik loop, just so I can descend my safety line ABSENT of any other device. I also climb with extra rope, so I can always get down. Aircraft have redundant systems, so should people hanging off trees.


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## 'Chew (Mar 1, 2012)

Shootin Jim said:


> Thats why you have recovery straps in a pouch on your hunting harness...
> 
> You need to try doing all these acrobatic recovery moves wearing full winter clothes and a lowered core temp like you'll have in late season. Do that and come back telling me how great your climbing rig worked for you. You will be weaker, you will be tired, and you'll most likely die stuck in a tree unless your cell phone works.


I'm confused about what acrobatic moves you'll be forced to do in a climbing harness? With a short runner clipped to a lifeline or tree strap, there just isn't enough rope to allow you to become inverted in a fall or stand failure. 

You're basically weighting the harness if you have it set correctly, not falling and swinging 20 feet off a rock face. 

My dad is an OSHA instructor who deals with rear attach harness safety a portion of the time. He previously worked construction for 30 years. He's no stranger to harnesses. I'm taking his experience and advice to steer clear of the rear attach.


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

SJ sounds like you have a good plan in place. Have you practiced with this system? I have tried using full body harnesses & life line. They require a lot of effort to get down, & I find them very uncomfortable after a fall.

Full body harnesses just don't fit my style of hunting - weight from harness & 30' of rope is a bit too much. Also they are to restrictive - shooting 360 deg & accessing pockets.

Here's my testing of my BOD. I would love to see a video of your system in action for comparison.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yceXR7VK1Yc


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Shootin Jim said:


> Thats why you have recovery straps in a pouch on your hunting harness...
> 
> You need to try doing all these acrobatic recovery moves wearing full winter clothes and a lowered core temp like you'll have in late season. Do that and come back telling me how great your climbing rig worked for you. You will be weaker, you will be tired, and you'll most likely die stuck in a tree unless your cell phone works. You already made a mistake that got you "hung" to be in this situation to begin with.
> 
> ...


Jim- thanks for the concern. I know you are advising what you are comfortable with but have you read anything that I have posted? Please read what Chew and cbigbear just posted too.

I also own and have practiced falls and self rescue using a HSS Ultra Lite harness. Self rescue is almost impossible with the HSS with 3 feet or more of tether behind your back and out of reach. Have you actually rescued yourself while hanging from your harness using the plan that you have?

You never said which climbing harness you had and what kind of bad experience you had with it?


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

I used to climb a lot in my early 20's, including teaching and running a 40' tower and 300' zip line for two months at a summer camp. Which ended up winning me "demonstration *****" status in the army. How do I know you end up "toes up" when you fall, you ask? Because I got dropped 22' down the 32' platform in BCT, because I laughed when the Cpt said "one of you is gonna possum." I'd never been upside down on a wall, and didn't know how you could screw up from such a LOW height. 22' of slack + perfect V toes at shoulder height rappelling posture + gravity = Jim's a damn possum! I'd been helping my DS check harnesses on the ground because he caught on that I wasn't new to the sport. The other DS thought it was nervous laughter; not knowing I'd reppelled 250' over freezing lake superior, and the only way off the cliff was to climb back up... So he dropped me!

It was funny at the time. 

I have read what you've all wrote, and I still feel having a low front attachment point in a stand is asking for trouble. Going up and down the tree, a linemans belt would be fine as long as it can't get fouled in the climber. Once in position, unless you're hunting from a tree saddle style configuration, I really think a shoulder harness is a safer rig. Short tether and range of motion are opposites with a low front attachment point unless you're still facing the tree.

You only need a swiss seat rig to stay off the ground. When you step off, you're likely to rotate, and that means your head is now swinging. That's a recipe for disaster.

30' of assault line weighs less than my lunch. Seriously - it's under a couple pounds.

I don't have pics or video, but ascenders do the same functions, only at greatly elevated expense. You can use two prussiks to mimmic the effect, and shimmy down the rope in style.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

I use the one that came with my summit climber. I've never had a bad experience with it. I have slid on some poplars with the smooth teeth of the stand, but I've never regretted selling off all my climbing gear. My knees are trashed from the army, so I don't climb cliffs anymore. 

When the summit slipped (viper ss - open front), it almost left the tree because I had just gotten it and didn't understand the need for the top and bottom to be attached. My harness saved my butt.

I wear my harness under my jacket, but over my pants. The tether comes up behind my neck and out the collar. I flip it over my shoulder walking out to the stand.


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

Few last points I'll make then we can just agree to disagree.

The rock harness does turn you facing the tree in a fall. Your not the first person to bring up slamming face first into the tree. So here's my question to you - is slamming the back of your head into the tree with a full body harness better? I would much prefer head first with the ability to put my hands & arms out to catch the tree.

I couple pounds is a huge difference to me. I have trimmed my setup down to about 10lbs total. This is very much necessary on some of the 2 mile in hunts I make. Believe my every oz. counts at that distance.

I tested with a summit seat of the pants harness - be careful.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Jim- I bet being dropped with 22' of slack was a rough experience. No wonder you ended up inverted and lucky you weren't broken up or killed.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

I laughed at the time - DS thought I was afraid of heights: found out I wasn't. 

The full body harness keeps you turned away from the tree; you'd possibly get bumped by the strap, not the tree.

2 miles is a joke right? My side arm is 27oz without bullets. That's a 30 minute casual walk for a guy with bad knees - I did it timed last week.


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## 'Chew (Mar 1, 2012)

Shootin Jim said:


> The full body harness keeps you turned away from the tree; you'd possibly get bumped by the strap, not the tree.


Jim,
Have you tested the rear attach harness by rolling or falling out of a stand? 
Thanks,
Matt


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## Thansen (Sep 23, 2009)

I fell once no fun that needs to be higher like others are saying. My back was screwed up for a year and is still really tight allot I'm sure that all has to due with the fall. Safety line are not to play with. I would be very careful with this. I see your idea and like your idea i just think you would fall to far before it would catch and ever possiably hit your head on the lower part of the climber when you fell. That would not be good.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

My stand ends up just below my knees. I put a lot of weight to set my choker on the tree as soon as I like where I am.

Bear in mind guys, I use an open face climber. There is no hoop keeping me upright if I step off.


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

Shootin Jim said:


> I laughed at the time - DS thought I was afraid of heights: found out I wasn't.
> 
> The full body harness keeps you turned away from the tree; you'd possibly get bumped by the strap, not the tree.
> 
> 2 miles is a joke right? My side arm is 27oz without bullets. That's a 30 minute casual walk for a guy with bad knees - I did it timed last week.


Unless you have your safety line spaced away from the tree your back & head is going to hit the tree in a fall wearing a full body harness. You maybe assuming your standing right next to the tree & will fall straight down, but this isn't a real world hunting scenario for most bow hunters.

Nope not joking. My average hunts are 1-2 miles deep. This is plenty enough to get away from the average public land hunter. My total weight going in is around 15lbs & when everything works right it's about 50-60lbs coming out with a field quartered deer.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

What I was getting at was 2 miles is a short walk.

My property is 3/4 mile depending on where you hunt - I only have 84 acres.


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, I agree 2 miles down the black top, gravel rd, or trails is a causal walk. But that's not the case to often where I hunt. It's more like mud, briars, hills, & water. 

I've hunted small tracts of private land in the past & will again agree with you hunting these tracts 3-4 lbs extra weight isn't a big deal.

I think the bottom line is we have different hunting style & a full body harness fits your needs, but doesn't cut it for me. I'm not knocking your system at all just saying you should practice & have a plan - same advice I give everyone. I've tested my system & know it works. I'll gladly share my experience with others & answer any questions they have. If you have any more concerns about the rock climbing harness just let me know & I'll do my best to clear it up.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

Uh, there's 100yds of knee deep mud that you have to navigate to get to my 30% grade hills (in is up). I own lumpy hardwood timber - this ain't no picnik stroll.

Trucks can't navigate it, atvs need winching until the water firms things up in January.

I'm always sweating when I get in position.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

I probably have not explained myself or the system I am going to use that well. 
This video is from the company that makes that system to use with a webbing tree strap and it seems to work really well. 
Notice that the tether is not long and it is moved onto the tree and cinched down when not climbing. My rope tree strap is set much higher on the tree and has even less slack when hunting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbTOjWEHlsM


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## Acts 10:13 (Aug 9, 2008)

Subscribed.


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## chadw (Sep 18, 2007)

I have setup my climber with the clips like the orginal poster. I use a regular full body harness with the teather between the shoulder blades..My question is..is there a way that i could use my rope and prussic in the "clips" around the tree, but not attach it to my "teather" and somehow attach it to my linemans loops on my harness while i climb? anyone have any suggestions???


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## cbigbear (Jul 22, 2009)

This isn't a good system for a full body harness. Your hook up point is too low for the back tether & could possibly wrap around you in a fall. 

Hooked into a linemen's belt would prevent a fall, but you'd be in a bad position if your stand fell. Hanging by a linemen's belt isn't a good thing.


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