# NASP - is it even about archery?



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

According to the NASP website, http://naspschools.org/, it's mostly about encouraging kids to get outside (It's ironic - if logistically practical - that the NASP activities to promote outside awareness and exploration are largely conducted indoors, from what I've seen).

The mission statement claims that NASP "we stress the teaching of skills over technology" ... "This levels the playing field for all archers and encourages focus on technique and form instead of equipment and technology." I was watching hundreds of kids shooting at the state NASP tournament yesterday - it was fun to see, and most of the kids were having fun (although sometimes it's hard to tell if it's the activity or just being out of school for the day that's the biggest 'fun generator'). But what I didn't see was much skill in form and technique - out of hundreds of kids shooting, I spied 4 or 5 who looked like they'd had some thoughtful, knowledgeable instruction. The vast majority looked like they'd been taught the safety protocols, the whistle commands, and that's about it. And these were the best of the program who'd made it through regionals. I found the level of 'archery' skill on display to be dismal.

After 13 years, what have been the results? Are these former participants engaging in outdoor activities more than students who don't participate in the program? Has NASP developed some kind of feedback loop (would it even be possible?) to see after several years of cooking class attendance, if former students are actually cooking? 

And, how much has the program fueled ongoing active interest and participation in archery after these kids exit school? Should I even be asking this question in an archery forum, or would it be better placed in an educational forum?

And finally, how the heck is this program going to help the USA develop female archers who can match up with the Koreans?!!!!!! (this last question is largely whimsical/wry, but obliquely gets at "what's it (NASP) for?, and "why do we talk about it in this forum?")


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

I think that largely depends on the coaching, as it is with JOAD. We don't have much experience with NASP around here. KY has a huge NASP program but in OH it is for the most part non-existent. I think our JOAD club has picked up 1 or 2 former NASP shooters in the past. If it gets the kids interested and off the couch I think that is a plus. I would suspect that many more NASP archers move to 3D than Olympic-style shooting, at least that is what I've heard from some in KY.

Keeping all the equipment the same has it's pros and cons. It keeps costs down to get more into shooting but can limit the growth and skill set at the same time. Some of the NASP kids that have come to our Try Archery events have had a hard time transitioning to the US Archery/NTS-style of shooting. Is that because NASP doesn't follow that style or that we didn't have enough time to properly instruct them? IDK


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## leschrader (Jun 26, 2012)

Is the NASP "style" so different from the NTS or the BEST? I tried looking for some info on the NASP "style" and came up with zip. There were advertisements for taking the instructor classes, but no info on the "style" itself. A web site/link would be appreciated.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

The one I found is http://naspschools.org It has resources that list requirements and general guidelines, Instructor resources with several .pdf files, videos, etc.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

LKS,

I am a BIG supporter of the NASP. It is easy to see the negatives that you point out. But the positives are there too.

Will NASP feed the archery community with future Olympians? I don't know and frankly don't care. That level of shooting is "elite" level stuff and by definition only a few will ever reach it. I do see many NASP students buying recurves and compounds for other reasons and many/most of them stay in archery to one degree or another -- it just may be not in the high level competitions, but I think that is a problem with the USAA or NFAA (and other organizations) and NOT the NASP program.

What NASP does do (IMO) is get kids participating in a physical activity and away from the video games -- at least for a while, school attendance is higher on days that archery is part of the day AND most importantly (again IMO) EVERY ONE GETS TO PLAY!!

I don't know how OK does it and can only tell you about Minnesota. EVERYONE that wants to shoot -- shoots. There is NO qualification to attend the State tournament other than to just get to the tournament sight and a team affiliation. REGARDLESS of the "season's scores" for each individual, they get to go to state. Kids that would never even "make the team" in any other sport go to state if they want to. NO ONE sits on the bench -- as happens in most other sports! Think what that does for a kid's self esteem. Here is an example, in basket ball there are about 15 or 20 kids that "make the team", all the others are "cut." Then of the ones that make the team, only 6 or 7 EVER see any amount of playing time. Here (again in MN archery) EVERYONE plays, there are no bench sitters.

Yes, the training the "coaches" get is VERY rudimentary/elementary. An 8 hour class (very similar to USA Archery's Level 1 class) that INTRODUCES volunteers to a shot sequence (without any of the "whys" explained) so the team instructors do not have a "full tool bag" and do the best they can. Style? Tim Strickland was part of the development of the NASP system so the style is based on accepted practices, it is just that no one becomes expert in it just by taking the basic class.

I, too, saw many examples of really poor archery execution at our state tournament last weekend. Talked to one coach who had a kid that was literally "dancing around" on the line and couldn't stay straddled on the shooting line for all 5 shots. He (the coach) was a "new recruit" and didn't realize that the kid was distracting to everyone around but thought that he (the student) should be able to do what he was "comfortable with." He had no clue as to much related to archery but was a volunteer who was trying. He will learn as will his team over time.

Other team coaches here in MN have pursued more training . I have personally trained coaches from 5 school systems to USA Archery Level 2 and one coach has gone to Level 3. Most definitely, the BAI (Basic Archery Instructor) training for NASP is elementary at best BUT it gets the ball rolling. I'd add here that in our local school district, we have 180 kids on the team this year, and 6 coaches. Another school nearby has a town population of less than 600, 8 coaches and 60 kids on the team. Most teams in MN are similar. With those numbers, individual attention is spread out a lot AND with a "season" of 3 months with 2 practices a week and 6 tournaments before State, there is not a lot of time to make "perfect" archers.

Whether or not NASP leads to future "archery champions" regardless of venue, is not the "end all be all" of the program. USA Archery certainly is not reaching the numbers that NASP is. I'd ask you to consider the building of self esteem, the chance for many to participate that wouldn't be able too in other sports and the learning of a POTENTIALLY life long activity to be the goal of NASP not the making of future Olympians.

So, are we "teaching archery?" Is NASP archery? I guess it depends on your view point and concept of archery. For me, archery is a life long activity that may or may NOT include high level competition, it may be hunting, 3D, FITA, USAA venues, NFAA venues, bowfishing, or just shooting stumps in the back yard. I am VERY much into teaching a good archery shot to folks, but also VERY much into letting the individual play the "archery game" they want to or are interested in. Did I mention that I'm a fan of NASP? I see the smiles, sense of accomplishment and pride of the kids that get to play. What more is there?

I will say that I reacted much like you when I was first exposed to NASP. I started summer classes that I advertised as "advanced NASP" through our Parks and Recreation county organization. That was my "foot in the door" and it wasn't long before the school coaches were asking me for more training (L2 certification) that is when our area really took off. And we now have pretty consistent high level state team and individual place winners. Arne philosophy (FWIW), "get in there and make it better, don't just criticize."

Arne


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi Arne, 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I applaud the benefits of the NASP program (self esteem, participation, etc). I'd just be interested to know how many of the kids are actively shooting archer 3 or 5 or 7 years after they were in the NASP program. 

I'm not concerned if the program is not making Olympians - but if it's not generating active ongoing archers in any kind of noticeable quantities after they leave the school program, then why should I - as an archer and an archery coach - spend much time contemplating it? (as a general citizen, kudos to the program for encouraging kids to concentrate and active and participate).


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

It is my experience that NASP instructors were only certified because they had to be, and often don't have their own archery interest (kinda like Parks and Rec). Just like many school programs that are invested in financially and not given the necessary skills to effectively implement said program. My son is suffering that in HS right now in two classes (not archery). 

I had a mom bring her son to me for coaching, because he really wanted to make the NASP team at his school. This young man is autistic, and quite honestly, had a tough time grasping some of the basics. We percevered, and not only did he make the team, he out shot their "coach".

I don't think there is the structure in place to funnel students toward greater things. The foundation is there. Just needs building on, imho.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> Hi Arne,
> 
> Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I applaud the benefits of the NASP program (self esteem, participation, etc). I'd just be interested to know how many of the kids are actively shooting archer 3 or 5 or 7 years after they were in the NASP program.
> 
> I'm not concerned if the program is not making Olympians - but if it's not generating active ongoing archers in any kind of noticeable quantities after they leave the school program, then why should I - as an archer and an archery coach - spend much time contemplating it? (as a general citizen, kudos to the program for encouraging kids to concentrate and active and participate).


Well, I think when it comes to volunteer archery coaching you should do what you enjoy doing. You might like teaching a certain kind of student, especially those who will advance to a technical or competative level, and Moebow seems to enjoy that but also enjoy helping people to teach the sport at a more recreational level, even if the archers enjoy NASP for a limited time. It does seem like Moebow has been able to make some things happen at NASP by persistence and a clever hook, and looks at the NASP program as an opportunity to get kids to enjoy archery as a welcoming, inclusive sport, with no special archery end goal necessarily needed. I think having a coaches with a variety of interests and specialties is a good thing, so maybe NASP can't fit your interested or expectations, or maybe you'll find some overlap. :dontknow:


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Warbow said:


> Well, I think when it comes to volunteer archery coaching you should do what you enjoy doing. You might like teaching a certain kind of student, especially those who will advance to a technical or competative level, and Moebow seems to enjoy that but also enjoy helping people to teach the sport at a more recreational level, even if the archers enjoy NASP for a limited time. It does seem like Moebow has been able to make some things happen at NASP by persistence and a clever hook, and looks at the NASP program as an opportunity to get kids to enjoy archery as a welcoming, inclusive sport, with no special archery end goal necessarily needed. I think having a coaches with a variety of interests and specialties is a good thing, so maybe NASP can't fit your interested or expectations, or maybe you'll find some overlap. :dontknow:


I don't disagree. I was just disappointed with the level of 'form' displayed at the 'state championship', which prompted me to visit the website and read the mission statement. This mission statement shed a lot of light on things for me, as it's very clear from the mission statement that "generating 'archers' is not the primary intent of NASP". So that made me wonder if there's any information about what 'beyond school' impact, if any, NASP program has had on the archery community (competitive and recreational), so I just thought I'd float those musings here.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> I don't disagree. I was just disappointed with the level of 'form' displayed at the 'state championship', which prompted me to visit the website and read the mission statement. This mission statement shed a lot of light on things for me, as it's very clear from the mission statement that "generating 'archers' is not the primary intent of NASP". So that made me wonder if there's any information about what 'beyond school' impact, if any, NASP program has had on the archery community (competitive and recreational), so I just thought I'd float those musings here.


NASP does have some oddball bedpartners:



> The National Archery in the Schools Program (NASP®) was developed to serve these specific educational and conservation purposes. NASP® was co-created by the Kentucky Departments of Fish & Wildlife Resources and Department of Education and Mathews Archery in the late summer and fall of 2001. The program was launched in 21 Kentucky middle schools on March 3, 2002. Originally called the “Kentucky Archery in the Schools Program”, the effort’s goal was to enroll 120 schools and teach target archery skills to 24,000 students each year. Kentucky gave itself three years to achieve this goal.


(From the NASP site)

As you note, NASP is typically indoors, in a gym - and rarely outdoors, certainly not at a park and rec, because NASP is required to be during school hours, not after school. 

I think here is your real reason for NASP:



> How is NASP Funded?
> 
> Funding for the Division of Wildlife NASP Grant program comes from the Federal Aid to Wildlife Restoration Program which is commonly called the Pittman Robertson (P-R) Program, and from a federal excise tax on rifles, shotguns, handguns, and ammunition and archery equipment. Funds are apportioned to state fish and wildlife agencies based on the number of hunting license holders and each state's size in relation to the other states. The USFWS reimburses states like Ohio at a rate of 75% of each dollar spent on shooting and Hunter education activities. It is up to each state to match the 75% with a 25% contribution or match.


http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/education-and-outdoor-discovery/nasp

NASP doesn't seem to have a darn thing to do with "wild life conservation" but it does seem to be something they are allowed to spend that 11% Federal "excise" (sales) tax money they collect when we buy archery gear. Mathews + scheme to use federal wildlife conservation money to buy training bows that aren't selling well = NASP (That may not be it at all, but it does sort of sort of seem that way... :dontknow: )


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## Remfan (Oct 30, 2011)

I think it can be a great introductory program but the vast majority of coaches are clueless about teaching the fundamentals of basic archery form which is evident after watching state and national tournaments over the years. NASP has become more about the money instead of the kid. One of my biggest complaints has been the year around season because it discourages/hinders the exploration of other forms of archery. I've been involved in actively coaching for approx 6 yrs and can say that the majority of NASP shooters give up archery prior to finishing high school or immediately after the completion of their senior year. Only shooters that have been introduced to hunting through family and others continue to participate in any form of archery. If you put a true compound or recurve bow into a NASP shooter 'a hands they quickly lose interest in NASP. They've now made a desperate effort to include 3d into their program only after another student group started. Again I'll say a great program but I feel that's it has lost it's purpose and is too afraid of losing numbers /money to truly promote archery as a lifelong sport. Several years ago I saw a report by the Easton foundation(I think) that studied the impact of NASP to the archery industry and It showed that NASP contributed very little. If someone can find it I would love to read it again because it seems to have conveniently disappeared. These are my honest observations over the past several years.


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## yugami (Dec 10, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Hi Arne,
> I'd just be interested to know how many of the kids are actively shooting archer 3 or 5 or 7 years after they were in the NASP program.


I think just informing them that its a sport is a big step forward. I went my school years and a chunk of my adult life never knowing archery was a sport.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Warbow said:


> NASP doesn't seem to have a darn thing to do with "wild life conservation" but it does seem to be something they are allowed to spend that 11% Federal "excise" (sales) tax money they collect when we buy archery gear. Mathews + scheme to use federal wildlife conservation money to buy training bows that aren't selling well = NASP (That may not be it at all, but it does sort of sort of seem that way... :dontknow: )


Yeah, it may seem that way. But I'd rather they spend it this way than have some sleazy politician see a "slush fund" they can raid for other for their own purposes. I know the Pittman Robertson Program is only supposed to used for hunting/fishing/wildlife programs but the SS was supposed to be for support for the elderly. It got badly raided when its coffered filled too full. If the money used is getting kids off the couch and into a sport then I'm ok with that. I do think that there should be a stepping stone out of NASP if there isn't one, something that keeps the kids moving thru archery as they get older. Archery is a big wide world and we should make it as accessible as possible.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Remfan said:


> I think it can be a great introductory program but the vast majority of coaches are clueless about teaching the fundamentals of basic archery form which is evident after watching state and national tournaments over the years. NASP has become more about the money instead of the kid. One of my biggest complaints has been the year around season because it discourages/hinders the exploration of other forms of archery. I've been involved in actively coaching for approx 6 yrs and can say that the majority of NASP shooters give up archery prior to finishing high school or immediately after the completion of their senior year. Only shooters that have been introduced to hunting through family and others continue to participate in any form of archery. If you put a true compound or recurve bow into a NASP shooter 'a hands they quickly lose interest in NASP. They've now made a desperate effort to include 3d into their program only after another student group started. Again I'll say a great program but I feel that's it has lost it's purpose and is too afraid of losing numbers /money to truly promote archery as a lifelong sport. Several years ago I saw a report by the Easton foundation(I think) that studied the impact of NASP to the archery industry and It showed that NASP contributed very little. If someone can find it I would love to read it again because it seems to have conveniently disappeared. These are my honest observations over the past several years.


Maybe this is the study you were speaking of? http://www.esdf.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/NASP_Report_2012.pdf


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## yugami (Dec 10, 2013)

This study showed similar results in 2005, it seems that the lack of a gateway from NASP to other archery could be a major stepping stone in upping its effectiveness.

https://www.archerytrade.org/uploads/documents/majorfindingsofnaspstudentsurvey.pdf


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

NASP is designed simply to create an archery activity in schools. I describe it as a turnkey archery program, complete with equipment and curriculum and training for existing PE teachers. I think of it as "growing the base of the pyramid". Just like archery at summer camp, how many kids move forward with archery? Probably not many, but definitely some - more than the zero it would be if there was no archery. This is not unlike other sports, like football or basketball - how many kids "move forward" with the sport? How many adults still play? Not many.

The missing element with NASP is probably more pointedly steering kids to JOAD and local clubs if they want to carry on. That probably depends somewhat on the proximity and access, but I think the important thing is planting the seed. Bear in mind too that these are also future voters and citizens who will likely not oppose archery when we are trying to build or protect archery ranges and programs.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

lksseven said:


> Hi Arne,
> 
> Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I applaud the benefits of the NASP program (self esteem, participation, etc). I'd just be interested to know how many of the kids are actively shooting archer 3 or 5 or 7 years after they were in the NASP program.
> 
> I'm not concerned if the program is not making Olympians - but if it's not generating active ongoing archers in any kind of noticeable quantities after they leave the school program, then why should I - as an archer and an archery coach - spend much time contemplating it? (as a general citizen, kudos to the program for encouraging kids to concentrate and active and participate).


How many NASP schools have you gone to to recruit those archers for your club?

This is somewhat rhetorical question because in our school systems to be involved with the students there is a mountain of red tape hoops to jump through and they really frown on any kind of "recruitment" for external programs that are not associated with the schools. 

From my some what unique perspective if you want more elite archers it needs to be a more concerted effort to provide facilities and opportunities for the new archers. I get over 150 requests for access to my archery program every year and my bandwidth is like 60 and that's if I only do beginner 10 week sessions and never get past the "intro to archery" stage. So if I ignore the throngs of young faces pleading with me to let them have a chance I could develop perhaps a dozen reasonably skilled archers per year. This is not a system primed to take advantage of the growing population of archers? This is a broken understaffed under appreciated rag tag group of volunteers. I'm not sure how the pipeline has anything to do with NASP. My problem isn't finding interested parties to participate it's trying to find interested coaches willing to do the negotiation for training facilities that don't exist and organizational admin time to keep a club even remotely documented. As best as I can tell USArchery provides no online club management tools. No waiting list system. No coach notes organizer. It is basically left entirely up to the hope that there will be a grass roots effort to create opportunities for kids in areas where none currently exist. Now it may be that this sort of lack of growth planning or support is unique to the Pacific North west but I doubt it. If you read through the list of Coaches on the USArchery website for Wa and then actually contact them I'm sure less than a third actually run or are involved with an active program. 

In Washington state we have a minimal NASP program but it is growing. Unfortunately it is almost entirely run by volunteers because our fish and wildlife group says they can't afford it. So ya they are under trained and understaffed but at least the students have somewhere to shoot. I'm not sure why anyone would expect NASP to be anything different than it is?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

b0w_bender said:


> How many NASP schools have you gone to to recruit those archers for your club?
> 
> This is somewhat rhetorical question because in our school systems to be involved with the students there is a mountain of red tape hoops to jump through and they really frown on any kind of "recruitment" for external programs that are not associated with the schools.
> 
> ...


I've made forays to 4 or 5 schools in my neck of the woods. Only one of those has been responsive, which perplexed me. And my previous misconception of what NASP is - a school program to promote and encourage target archery), my being stumped at why the schools seemed so uninterested in nurturing an advanced archery path for those students who really caught fire with archery, and my subsequent partial enlightenment as to what NASP is actually about - is what prompted me to start the thread. I'm wanting others here to flesh out and add to my understanding, based upon their knowledge and experience with the program in their areas.

And my question about "why should I - as an archer and an archery coach - spend much time thinking about NASP?" is not a flippant question. I'm open minded to be schooled here. But I ask the question in light of this forum's byline "Forum: F.I.T.A, N.A.A., Collegiate Archery, And J.O.A.D. .... Are you interested in international competition? Do you run a JOAD club, or want to start one? This is the place to exchange ideas and get involved with international and youth archery programs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, I tend to steer clear of NASP discussions here on the AT Fita forum, for good reason - I am a big fan of the program, and it seems very few here are. So it's best that I just don't comment on it to save myself a lot of aggravation.

However, I will say this about being a coach. I have come full circle in my 15 years as a coach, starting with Cub Scout day camp kids who've never touched a bow, to JOAD kids, to elite JOAD archers, to National champions and Jr. World Championship team members, back to 4-H and again, kids who have never touched a bow. Currently, I coach as many barebow archers as any JOAD coach I know.

What I've learned in this journey is that for me, it's more important to remember that archery is a TOOL that we use to teach life lessons to these kids, than it is what my students ever do as archer-athletes. 

Does this mean I'm not super excited to work with Jr. World Championship and Jr. USAT - level archers? No. That still turns my crank and sometimes even keeps me up at night thinking of ways I can help them find those last few points they need to make the team.

But at the end of the day, my greater purpose is to help kids gain confidence and create family bonds by using this sport we call archery. If I never turn out another Jr. USAT team member or National Champion, but continue to bring families together and help kids develop problem-solving skills and confidence through archery, that is just fine by me.

So, to that end NASP is a fantastic tool. It meets it's mission, and then some. And that's why I support it wholeheartedly.

John


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

John,

You and I seem to clash on many archery issues and philosophies, BUT NOT ON THIS ONE!!!!!!! Great post IMO!!!!

Arne


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> ... archery is a TOOL that we use to teach life lessons to these kids, than it is what my students ever do as archer-athletes.


AYSO soccer stresses a similar theme. It's a fairly good philosophy for any youth activity. 

Be a positive youth organization that happens to teach a sport or skill to some extent, rather than drive so hard for elite performance that the participants suffer.

-T


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## archernemesis (Feb 11, 2014)

> NASP - is it even about archery?


Yes, it is.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

lksseven said:


> I've made forays to 4 or 5 schools in my neck of the woods. Only one of those has been responsive, which perplexed me. And my previous misconception of what NASP is - a school program to promote and encourage target archery), my being stumped at why the schools seemed so uninterested in nurturing an advanced archery path for those students who really caught fire with archery, and my subsequent partial enlightenment as to what NASP is actually about - is what prompted me to start the thread. I'm wanting others here to flesh out and add to my understanding, based upon their knowledge and experience with the program in their areas.
> 
> And my question about "why should I - as an archer and an archery coach - spend much time thinking about NASP?" is not a flippant question. I'm open minded to be schooled here. But I ask the question in light of this forum's byline "Forum: F.I.T.A, N.A.A., Collegiate Archery, And J.O.A.D. .... Are you interested in international competition? Do you run a JOAD club, or want to start one? This is the place to exchange ideas and get involved with international and youth archery programs.




Excellent response, and legitimate line of inquiry.
I think most schools see it simply as another gym activity that the kids really enjoy and everyone in the class can compete on relatively equal footing. This makes life easier for the gym teacher and why it will likely persist. As mentioned above the value to archery is likely simply that more people as adults would be more likely to be proponents for archery clubs.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Bow Bender,

Fair enough. Thank you for enlightening me.

John, I don't understand how the NASP program integrates with the great work you're doing down there with your JOAD. I'm happy to discuss it off the air if you prefer. The only other comment I'll offer regarding your very thoughtful post is that you say that your "... greater purpose is to continue to bring families together and help kids develop problem-solving skills and confidence through archery" ... ME TOO! And your sentiment is one of the things I love most about you, John. My angst is that I haven't seen much of NASP in my area actually doing this (helping kids develop problem-solving skills) - quite the opposite; they give the kids a problem ("Here's a bow, Hit the middle!") but don't teach them nearly enough skills to solve that problem. So some of the kids' parents bring the kids to me because they want to get better and are very frustrated about how to do so. My frustration is with the seemingly insular (and short sighted) view of many administrations in my area.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, we clearly see different things when we observe NASP shooters. I see a lot of kids having fun, being part of a team, feeling included, learning problem solving skills and concentration skills, doing math in their heads (who does this anymore anyway?), and asking their parents to get them a bow. I know of non-archery families (several) who are now archery families because of NASP. Friends of mine from college, and people I work with now shoot archery solely because their kids were in NASP. 



> John, I don't understand how the NASP program integrates with the great work you're doing down there with your JOAD.


It doesn't have to.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Wow, it sounds like your experiences with NASP in other states is quite different from what we are achieving in Washington State.

We currently have 130 schools in the program, now getting to the end of our 10th year of operation.

We just had our Washington State Championship this past weekend. 36 schools participating, with over 850 archers!

Our schools are achieving some very good results, new records set at each year's Championship indicates the program is maturing. That this year's top male and top female are both MIDDLE SCHOOL students tells me there is still LOTS of room for growth.

This year we offered scholarships for the first time, thanks to fund administration and matching grant from NASP Foundation. Our top male and top female will both have $1000 waiting for them when they graduate, and the Spirit Award winner (sportsmanship based) who is currently in Elementary School will have $500 available for post-secondary education.

We have been inviting NASP students to participate in our two indoor events (Multi-Color and Blueface) for the past three years, adjusting just a little by setting the NASP round to be just a single day instead of two days, and waiving the State Association membership requirement. We require NASP-legal equipment and use the NASP age groups, with Elementary shooting the shorter Cub distance of 9 meters / 10 yards and middle school and high school shoot the full 18 meter / 20 yard distance, and this is at the 40cm diameter target. At the WSAA Indoor Multi-Color event in January, 183 of 360 total archers were in the NASP division. Several of these archers also turn up at our various Club tournaments, using either their NASP equipment in the Barebow division, or other personally owned equipment in their respective categories. And several of them have got their parents to join our state association and come to our tournaments. 

I think the program is working WELL to introduce a horde of young people and their families to archery. Even if they don't become archers, hopefully they will be favorably disposed to the sport and understand it, so when the local park includes an archery range they won't be alarmed!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hats off to you. Illinois had over 1000 NASP shooters at its state shoot. I have not yet seen 1 shooter from that program at a local shoot or transition to a local JOAD. NFAA runs the state tournament so I have no idea what kind of outreach is being done. 

So from my perspective NASP in this area is more a phy-ed module and that is fine. It's hard to believe we can't capture some of those shooters though


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I don't see the point in beating up the grassroots. My first few years in soccer were coached by parents who didn't know much, reffed by adults of uneven knowledge. At that level the point is getting interest. There was zero archery presence locally when I was a kid. That is what 4H and NASP to me are doing, is making it like little league or soccer, an available option.

Now, if you think it's way too sloppy talk to the grassroots organizations about more coach training. But at least part of the point to me is for these outfits simply to exist and promote interest. What you would then want to do is steer the ones who are better or more interested towards something like JOAD where the coaching is really there and higher performance is a more sincere and possible goal. Kind of like select in soccer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's a great point. Like it or not, JOAD is more like "travel ball" than "little league." 

And JOAD is not the Borg. We don't need to assimilate them all. Might as well ask why so many 3D archers don't shoot JOAD/USArchery events. 

Different strokes. It's good we all have choices.


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## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

My kids do grade school track, and I can't say that they are being trained for national-level or Olympic-level competitions, but they are enjoying getting exercise and building life skills. I think that NASP does the same for kids. (It also sells a S***LOAD of Genesis bows and Easton arrows.)

Just because we haven't seen JOAD kids on national teams doesn't mean the program is a failure. There are probably 500,000 kids in the US that do track or cross country at some time in their school years, and only a few dozen make the US teams. By comparison, JOAD is still quite small.


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## D_Winslow (Mar 20, 2014)

It's easy to discredit things one doesn't, understand or have experienced. There is too much unfortunate misinformation in this thread to even begin to address. 

But to at least address just the Thread Title: 
NASP is about so much more than the "proper" way to poke holes in paper. 

Unless you've been to a State NASP tournament or better yet the NASP Nationals or World Tournament with these kids and watch 600 excited young archers per hour for 3 days straight in largest annual indoor archery tournament the world has ever known, the benefit of whole NASP program might be difficult to comprehend.

What I find the most incredible is how NASP has accomplished this. The NASP organization is a VERY small group of brilliant people that have built an incredibly efficient organization and program. 

And just a few of my FAVORITE aspects... in about a month when 12,000 of the top NASP qualifiers travel to Louisville, they will all be shooting BAREBOW. Also, preliminary results will be posted online within 20 minutes of the conclusion of each line, with final results posted in LESS THAN ONE HOUR(not one month) following the conclusion of the tournament, as this is necessary since top archers will compete for over $100,000 in scholarships.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Azzurri said:


> I don't see the point in beating up the grassroots. My first few years in soccer were coached by parents who didn't know much, reffed by adults of uneven knowledge. At that level the point is getting interest. There was zero archery presence locally when I was a kid. That is what 4H and NASP to me are doing, is making it like little league or soccer, an available option.
> 
> Now, if you think it's way too sloppy talk to the grassroots organizations about more coach training. But at least part of the point to me is for these outfits simply to exist and promote interest. What you would then want to do is steer the ones who are better or more interested towards something like JOAD where the coaching is really there and higher performance is a more sincere and possible goal. Kind of like select in soccer.


Well, speaking for myself, I wasn't 'beating up the grassroots'. I was lamenting the lack of interest in archery skills by those involved in the administration of the NASP bureaucracy *in my area*. They don't appear to have target archery skills, they don't appear to be teaching target archery skills, and they aren't interested in helping those students who are motivated to pursue progress toward outside sources that can provide the instruction needed for improvement. I might also comment that local JOAD programs, imo, much more closely fit the definition of 'grassroots' than does a large, bureaucratic, state and corporate funded organization like NASP. 

I agree with your theoretical model of how it would all work nicely together - the NASP provides the introduction, fosters interest, and then provides information and points toward the next-step-resources to provide furtherance of archery pursuits for those who are motivated. But that's not happening in my area (I wish the NASP admins here were more like the ones in Washington state!) - it would be awesome if it was.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

wa-prez said:


> Wow, it sounds like your experiences with NASP in other states is quite different from what we are achieving in Washington State.
> 
> We currently have 130 schools in the program, now getting to the end of our 10th year of operation.


Wow, we have grown even beyond my hopes.
Seems you guys have been doing a great job and thanks. Clearly I miss spoke when I said it was "minimal" I think the last time I inquired about it we were around 20 schools. I guess now that I think about it that was over 5 years ago.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

With support from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, we help new NASP schools acquire their initial equipment, and also provide Basic Archery Instructor (BAI) training. This year, the funding was augmented by the NASP Foundation, making it even easier for a new school to get started. We have already met our goal (per contract with WDFW) of 15 new schools this year - and the School / NASP / WDFW year ends 30 JUNE so we might even pick up another one or two).

Don't know your personal name Bow Bender, but you are invited to pitch in and help us grow!


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## jodyspencer74 (Jan 24, 2014)

I think your expectations for NASP are somewhat too grand. Millions of kids and coaches are involved with football every year and very few of them ever participate in that sport again after high school. lksseven, I really think your opinion would change if your perspective was changed. I agree that a few kids each year want more instruction/knowledge than NASP has to offer and those are apparently the kids/families you see. I coached 85 kids this year in our NASP program and could tell you heart warming success stories ALL day long. The number of hours dads have spent shooting at home with his son or daughter is unimaginable, I hear it from A LOT from the moms. We have an elementary girl on our state champion team who can not repeat proper archery form and I do not push (or cut) her. In fact, it is quite possible someone in the audience was judging her lack of archery skill and blaspheming my abilities as her coach. But she wore her state champ medal to school all week and told one teacher "that is the only thing she has ever won in her life". I agree the program is not perfect but it has created some bow hunters from our program that would have never existed otherwise so even by nasp goals it has been a success.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jodyspencer74 said:


> I think your expectations for NASP are somewhat too grand. Millions of kids and coaches are involved with football every year and very few of them ever participate in that sport again after high school. lksseven, I really think your opinion would change if your perspective was changed. I agree that a few kids each year want more instruction/knowledge than NASP has to offer and those are apparently the kids/families you see. I coached 85 kids this year in our NASP program and could tell you heart warming success stories ALL day long. The number of hours dads have spent shooting at home with his son or daughter is unimaginable, I hear it from A LOT from the moms. We have an elementary girl on our state champion team who can not repeat proper archery form and I do not push (or cut) her. In fact, it is quite possible someone in the audience was judging her lack of archery skill and blaspheming my abilities as her coach. But she wore her state champ medal to school all week and told one teacher "that is the only thing she has ever won in her life". I agree the program is not perfect but it has created some bow hunters from our program that would have never existed otherwise so even by nasp goals it has been a success.


Jody, I agree, I didn't have an accurate initial understanding of what NASP was. After asking the question here, and reading the NASP mission statement, I have a much better understanding of it.

Having said that, I'll stand by my general observation that "I was lamenting the *lack of interest in archery skills by those involved in the administration of the NASP bureaucracy* *in my area*. They don't appear to have target archery skills, they don't appear to be teaching target archery skills, and *they aren't interested in helping those students who are motivated to pursue progress toward outside sources that can provide the instruction needed for improvement.*". The students who it appears are being underserved _*in my area*_ are not those general NASP population kids who like the activity and get casual enjoyment and familiarity about archery; but rather the fumble is with those students who have hunger for more knowledge and more skill acquisition, but are being ignored *by the insular attitude of the administrators of many of the programs around my area*. 

And to comment on your aspersion that someone like me was possibly 'blaspheming' you and judging your student - no reasonable person would do that (and 'blaspheme' - a word reserved for disrespect toward God or something Holy - might be a little over the top, anyway). I do not doubt that there are a lot of nice stories to be seen and told in the course of an NASP season. But, alluding to my observation earlier that only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of archers showed proper form (not the other way around) - if you watched hundreds of kids performing at the end of a several months long course in touch typing, and only a relative handful weren't hunting and pecking, what would your opinion then be of the typing class instruction?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It really comes down to how you want to measure "success" in this program.


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## D_Winslow (Mar 20, 2014)

lksseven said:


> Having said that, I'll stand by my general observation that "I was lamenting the *lack of interest in archery skills by those involved in the administration of the NASP bureaucracy* *in my area*. They don't appear to have target archery skills, they don't appear to be teaching target archery skills, and *they aren't interested in helping those students who are motivated to pursue progress toward outside sources that can provide the instruction needed for improvement.*". The students who it appears are being underserved _*in my area*_ are not those general NASP population kids who like the activity and get casual enjoyment and familiarity about archery; but rather the fumble is with those students who have hunger for more knowledge and more skill acquisition, but are being ignored *by the insular attitude of the administrators of many of the programs around my area*.


I whole heartedly agree there needs to be more exposure to NASP archers to get them involved in archery beyond their school program. However you don't have to look past the NASP Name to understand where their focus is(and should remain). It's archery IN the SCHOOLS. 

As far as your local DNR goes, they are not full time NASP staff. They are your state DNR and this is one of many outreach programs they offer. 

NASP is beginning to make huge efforts to bring other forms of archery to students in partnership with IBO where this year they are projecting 5000 NASP archers will shoot in the extra 3D tournament that runs in conjunction with the National tournament. Also, something I am very excited about that is new this year is a smaller recurve event at the National tournament. http://www.olympicarcheryinschools....for-oas-recurve-event-the-2015-nasp-nationals

I think NASP is beginning to step up to expose these kids to other avenues for archery. But USAA (or NFAA) needs start building there side of the bridge as well and in a big way since they have the most to gain. 

AS far as form goes... For anyone who has never shot or worked with the Genesis, it requires a little different form than typical recurve or compound. So it's easy to look at even good NASP archers and say there form is wrong, when really it's right for that bow.

My daughter shot in the indoor Nationals this year and although her barebow form is very different from recurve, I was able to pick out many recurve archers with terrible form as well. Bad muscle memory in young archers is not partial to a particular governing body of archery or coach.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

D Winslow said, 

"AS far as form goes... For anyone who has never shot or worked with the Genesis, it requires a little different form than typical recurve or compound. So it's easy to look at even good NASP archers and say there form is wrong, when really it's right for that bow."

I'm curious as to what you see as a difference between "recurve and Genesis" form requirements.

I am always looking for more information, but at this time don't see any difference in form requirements between recurve and Genesis. As the kids on my team progress, I move them into NTS style rotational(angular) drawing, deep string hook and bone on bone support. We start out much simpler but by the time they are in the 250/300 or higher range, we start to introduce NTS a little at a time.

Thanks
Arne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

NASP hasn't seemed to have hurt this young lady at all:
















2012 JOAD Indoor Championships - 5th

2012 National Indoor Championships - 2nd
2012 NASP National Championships - 9th

2011 NASP World Championships - 1st and overall Grand Champion

2011 Easton JOAD Nationals - 6th in Elimination Rounds, 6th in Ranking Round
2011 World Archery Youth Championships Team Trials - 4th

2011 National Target Championships - 4th


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## D_Winslow (Mar 20, 2014)

Moebow said:


> D Winslow said,
> 
> I'm curious as to what you see as a difference between "recurve and Genesis" form requirements.



Primarily, we receive form criticism(albeit constructive) for not pulling through the shot, and NASP does teach this. But we have had little to no success with a true back tension release with the Genesis, since they have nothing to pull against and are holding very little weight (18lbs) with anchor corner mouth, three under, jaw side anchor. 

Another common form criticism we get is the NASP kids shoot too fast. However they are not fooling with release aid in a pouch, bincolulars, buttons, peeps. This one is somewhat true and I do find myself begging them to slow down. However, there is a sweet spot in letting them find their own rhythm so they are not over thinking the shot. (Side note: I did find it interesting watching Kahtuna shoot at Vegas this year, in that I bet she spent less that 10 seconds on each arrow. In fact numerous times she let 10-15 seconds run off the clock before stepping up to the line.)

As far as barebow recurve goes, my daughter shoots the EXACT same form as her Genesis.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> This one is somewhat true and I do find myself begging them to slow down. However, there is a sweet spot in letting them find their own rhythm so they are not over thinking the shot.


Most folks who have never shot barebow competitively think barebow archers shoot too fast. I know I often surprise a lot of people when they see me shoot barebow, when it's not uncommon for me to shoot 3 arrows in under 30 seconds, or 6 outdoor arrows in under a minute. I have to explain to people who ask me why I shoot so fast (and many do ask) that there simply isn't anything left to do, and that's all the time it takes for me to make accurate shots. I'm sure the same is true with the NASP archers. More delay will only introduce more conscious thought and more problems.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Kids are kids. Some will listen and try, some will only see "flinging arrows" and still others won't change what they are doing for all the tea in China. My philosophy is to "TAKE WHAT THEY WILL GIVE YOU." A point will come if I can be patient enough that they will see their friends routinely beating them and suddenly a light will come on, and again maybe not. (Teachable moment??) Some will come up with the greatest response to coaching EVER, " I don't like to do it that way!" OK, go shoot your less than 220 scores and call me when you are ready to improve. Sometimes, it takes a year or two.

Those that will listen and try pop up into the 270 + range and may or may not "follow through" BUT most of the better shooters do. Unfortunately, one of the "lacks" in the BAI training (IMO) is that follow through is shown as "here is what it looks like" and no explanation of how to have it happen. That's when you get the classic "flip" of the string hand followed by the artificial movement of the hand to the shoulder. Frankly, a static release is better than that. BUT!! Take what they will give you and be patient.

Lastly, with the number of kids in the program and the number of coaches, it isn't easy to give very much personal attention so overall form can be problematic as the individuals can change and a coach not notice in a timely manner. Fault of the "everyone plays" philosophy??? Maybe, but at least they are OUT playing and doing something physical as opposed to their other activities.

Yes, shooting too fast is epidemic. They get 2 minutes to shoot 5 arrows and many are leaving the line in less than 1 minute. Many seem to think they can "catch up" by shooting faster. I agree that those of us that shoot bare bow do tend to shoot faster than most others, that is where I try to get them (the kids) to shoot with a steady rhythm rather than letting them go slow on some parts and fast on other parts of the shot.

I'm rambling a little but it is fun, challenging and different every day.

Arne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Yes, shooting too fast is epidemic. They get 2 minutes to shoot 5 arrows and many are leaving the line in less than 1 minute.


Don't ever watch me shoot barebow Arne. It may just drive you crazy.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I doubt it John, would love to watch you shoot sometime. Don't forget that my back ground is a Hill bow.:lol3:

Arne


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

D_Winslow said:


> I whole heartedly agree there needs to be more exposure to NASP archers to get them involved in archery beyond their school program. However you don't have to look past the NASP Name to understand where their focus is(and should remain). It's archery IN the SCHOOLS.
> 
> As far as your local DNR goes, they are not full time NASP staff. They are your state DNR and this is one of many outreach programs they offer.
> 
> ...


This is GREAT info, and very encouraging.

As far as form - what I saw a lot of was baseball bat gripping, and string hand collapsing, and string hands popping off the face. Likely that this would be less prevalent at NASP Nationals.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> NASP hasn't seemed to have hurt this young lady at all:
> 
> View attachment 2199474
> 
> ...


Hey, it's Brogan, my favorite compound shooter!


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