# It may be time to bin the pins and move over to the Dark Side



## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Take this for what it is worth. Dietmar Trillus is one of the best target shooters in the world and he shoots a wrist release. If you are a middle-low pack shooter with pins, you may well be in the same place with a scope. The scope and longer stabs do help a great deal but, everyone else is doing it as well so, you may not be addressing the issue. There are some exceptional bowhunter-class shooters that can shoot close scores to freestyle, only with pins. If you have really bad eyesight, you could very well see a big jump by going to a scope. If you have the option, find a coach and have them watch you shoot and get some advice from them about increasing your scores. I hope I am not coming off rude but, I really don't believe that the scope and long stabs are going to get you what you are after. Enjoy the ride regardless!  
Isaac


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I would resist the Dark side. The force is strong!!!!!!!!!!! Basing it on Indoor scores, there isn't a huge difference in indoor results from FS to BH.(except on the 3spot with the babyx)


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Go barebow. Really dark over here


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Isaac, you said pretty much what I was thinking! I'd like to try freestyle without fully committing to it right away, just to see and feel the difference from my current set up.
The lens would help: I recently started wearing my glasses when I shoot and it is Not Working. Can't get target in focus.
There are great wrist strap shooters, but I am not one of them. You'd laugh if you saw the layers I added to get the strap to fit just right, and I have to squish it all together and shove it up my arm before every shot. I'm not sure the Sweet Spot I've acquired is right for me, but I'll give it a try.
I'm not expecting to be very competitive in freestyle, but I would like to see how we'll I can score with all the advantages.


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## Marooned (May 3, 2012)

mag41vance said:


> I would resist the Dark side. The force is strong!!!!!!!!!!! Basing it on Indoor scores, there isn't a huge difference in indoor results from FS to BH.(except on the 3spot with the babyx)


Not to hi-jack your thread, but what is a decent score (for the average FS compound shooter - not pro) on the 3 spot - scoring inner 10 (or babyx)?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

From my experience in doing the same thing, you wont shoot any better starting out. You will probably shoot worse for a while. Learning to use a hinge release is not a quick process. All of those advantages are worth nothing if you still have form, or mental issues. That's kinda where I'm at right now. I know how to correct them, I just got to get there. I shoot mid 290s, 15-x on Vegas and 45-50x on 5 spot targets


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Lassie, even though I shoot left handed, I have a SureLoc Supreme that is easily converted to either side. I also have several different lens that I can install plus I have a Doinker 32" Pro Elite stab. You're welcomed to borrow all of these & I'll be glad to help you set it up. We'll be back to day light savings time after this Sunday so there should be some afternoon time at DCWC if you'd like to meet. I haven't got my new badge yet (got to do the safety class), but that shouldn't be a problem.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Marooned said:


> Not to hi-jack your thread, but what is a decent score (for the average FS compound shooter - not pro) on the 3 spot - scoring inner 10 (or babyx)?


Not sure, but here are our state results FWIW: http://www.ncfaa-archery.org/


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

The sweet spot IMO is one of the most user friendly BT's out there. It has to be for me to shoot one. You won't get used to it in a day either. 
It takes time to really find out what it takes to make one of these things tick. As for the wrist rocket, there's nothing wrong with them at all. Could possibly be you just need to find a strap that really fits you properly? And if you do go to a lens, by all means start with something really low power. I went to the DARKSIDE almost three years ago after 48 years of finger shooting. It's definitely an entirely different ballgame.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Lassie, even though I shoot left handed, I have a SureLoc Supreme that is easily converted to either side. I also have several different lens that I can install plus I have a Doinker 32" Pro Elite stab. You're welcomed to borrow all of these & I'll be glad to help you set it up. We'll be back to day light savings time after this Sunday so there should be some afternoon time at DCWC if you'd like to meet. I haven't got my new badge yet (got to do the safety class), but that shouldn't be a problem.


Lee, that would be really helpful! I'm not expecting instantly improved scores, just going to pay good attention to how it feels on my bow. Everything I use right now felt like a good fit from early on.
I'll keep the Sweet Spot for indoors at first. Don't want to scare the squirrels, or spend hours searching for arrows.:redface:


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Marooned said:


> Not to hi-jack your thread, but what is a decent score (for the average FS compound shooter - not pro) on the 3 spot - scoring inner 10 (or babyx)?


Decent is relative to your ability.

I know some avid FS shooters that have never shot 300 on the 3 spot. Those same FS shooters will shoot 50-55x 300 on the 5 spot.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mag41vance said:


> Decent is relative to your ability.
> 
> I know some avid FS shooters that have never shot 300 on the 3 spot. Those same FS shooters will shoot 50-55x 300 on the 5 spot.


Well if you can only shoot 50-55Xs on a blue face the likely hood of you getting lucky and shooting a 300 on a Vegas face is slim. The 10 ring on a Vegas face is pretty much the same size as the X on the blue face. So if your missing the X 5-10 times a game your gonna avg missing it 2.5-5 times a half. So your gonna miss the 10 ring on a Vegas face 2.5-5 times a round. :wink: When I used to shoot a lot of indoors I was avging in the 54-56 range....I shot several 300s but for the most part I would avg a 298/299.

As for the original question....the switch is probably for the better. The avg shooter will usually shoot better shooting FS then shooting with pins. Yes there are a few pin shooters that can shoot similar scores or even better then the avg FS shooters....but for the most part when looking at all of the shooters your going to shoot higher scores with FS gear once you get used to a scope and get the bow setup to fit. The benefit of being able to hold DEAD on and MOVE your sight is a HUGE plus when it comes to points for the avg shooter. Even indoors....how many points would the avg shooter gain by simply being able to move their sight during the round? Shooting field is MUCH easier for the avg person. Much easier to hold on the dot at 35 yds then try and hold off. 

Not everyone has Tim's ability :wink: 

Lot's of us can shoot VERY well with FS gear and could shoot well with BHFS gear...but your generally gonna shoot a little better with FS stuff. I can pretty much shoot a 300 50Xs or so every time I pick up my bow indoors....I could shoot the 300 with pins...but my X count isn't going to be as high with pins. On a field round if I spent the time learning my pins I could shoot a good score but my score in the end isn't going to be as high just from having to hold off. 

The big key to the original question is getting the form issues worked out....with the hinge being a big factor. If your shooting scores that your not happy with your gonna shoot similar scores with FS gear. Get your form and technique worked out :wink: But I would make the switch...if your not hunting or a hunter 1st and foremost I see ZERO reason to shoot pins. Heck I hunt with FS gear most times


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Lassie, even though I shoot left handed, I have a SureLoc Supreme that is easily converted to either side. I also have several different lens that I can install plus I have a Doinker 32" Pro Elite stab. You're welcomed to borrow all of these & I'll be glad to help you set it up. We'll be back to day light savings time after this Sunday so there should be some afternoon time at DCWC if you'd like to meet. I haven't got my new badge yet (got to do the safety class), but that shouldn't be a problem.


cool offer there.:darkbeer:


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

MustangLassie said:


> Lee, that would be really helpful! I'm not expecting instantly improved scores, just going to pay good attention to how it feels on my bow. Everything I use right now felt like a good fit from early on.
> I'll keep the Sweet Spot for indoors at first. Don't want to scare the squirrels, or spend hours searching for arrows.:redface:


one thing to keep in mind with long stabilizer is just cause it balance bow 1 does not mean the same setup will balance bow2.Key is to move the wieghts and angles around until you get the feel you want.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks for all this good advice!
It leads me to another question (someone tell me if this should be a new thread)... What is the best way to learn and improve? With a coach? By shooting with better shooters? By reading or watching instruction videos? By shooting a shedload of arrows til you figure it out yourself?
I'm sure the answer varies by person, but it might give me a place to start. Right now, I depend heavily on better shooters to suggest better techniques. I can't shoot at home, but would love to practice my form here.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

with better shooters or a coach.Some of the guys at DCWC could really help you out just beware of sarge.:embara:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

treeman65 said:


> with better shooters or a coach.Some of the guys at DCWC could really help you out just beware of sarge.:embara:


Sarge & Macaholic & Spoon13 & 3DShooter80 & ...... well anyone but Jarlicker & me.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Sarge & Macaholic & Spoon13 & 3DShooter80 & ...... well anyone but Jarlicker & me.


wow that is harsh putting those guys in with sarge. that will leave a mark:shade:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)




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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

I do learn a heck of a lot from my buds at DCWC :hail: and at the NC Hunter Supply indoor league :hail:. I'm assuming they will tell me to get lost when they're fed up with me :bored: cos I'm unlikely to run out of questions :grin: 
A compound coach would be good, because I'd feel less guilty about taking up someone else's shooting time.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

MustangLassie said:


> I do learn a heck of a lot from my buds at DCWC :hail: and at the NC Hunter Supply indoor league :hail:. I'm assuming they will tell me to get lost when they're fed up with me :bored: cos I'm unlikely to run out of questions :grin:
> A compound coach would be good, because I'd feel less guilty about taking up someone else's shooting time.


if it is a coach you want Kieth trail would be a great one. those guys can get you in contact with him


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

If you have target panic, a scope with a ring can help since you can see your target and not cover it up.

The BTR is going to take a while to get use to but will likely help you in the long run whether you go with a FS setup or stay with pins.

The long stabilizer will help.

There is about a 3X difference in my score BHFS compared to FS in a vegas round using a wrist release with both. I'm working with the BTR but it is not ready for competition yet.

Good luck.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

ccwilder3 said:


> If you have target panic, a scope with a ring can help since you can see your target and not cover it up.
> 
> The BTR is going to take a while to get use to but will likely help you in the long run whether you go with a FS setup or stay with pins.
> 
> ...


The day you decide to shoot a hinge is the day your ready to start shooting it in competition. You need to train with it and train hard up close to get used to it and comfortable with it....and lock up whatever other release it is that your getting away from. Going back to old trusty throws a wrench in the transition and makes things take MUCH longer. Your worried about score and or failing so you've already set your self up to fail. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> The day you decide to shoot a hinge is the day your ready to start shooting it in competition. You need to train with it and train hard up close to get used to it and comfortable with it....and lock up whatever other release it is that your getting away from. Going back to old trusty throws a wrench in the transition and makes things take MUCH longer. Your worried about score and or failing so you've already set your self up to fail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I somewhat agree. Most of my practice is with a BTR. I have a hard time however simply accepting the fact I'm going to suck in tournaments this year, as I try to learn the BTR. So I will continue to practice with the hinge till I can score as well as I do with a wrist release.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Found this link: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=262930&d=1182023216
I have made myself a draw length-sized release aid to use at home. Been aiming it at the dots on the kitchen wallpaper this evening. Sometimes the release goes off, other times it doesn't. I'll keep experimenting.:set1_thinking:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

ccwilder3 said:


> I somewhat agree. Most of my practice is with a BTR. I have a hard time however simply accepting the fact I'm going to suck in tournaments this year, as I try to learn the BTR. So I will continue to practice with the hinge till I can score as well as I do with a wrist release.


Why would you suck switching? :noidea: scores may dip for a couple weeks but your not gonna from shooting a 530 to a 510 because you switched. Heck I know I have Sticky 3 hinges one weekend to try...the next weekend he shot a PB. 

Jump in the water and swim already. Get out of the kiddie pool. Your not shooting any shoots that are for thousands of dollars 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

This winter I've shot the same 5 spot scores with FS and BHFS gear........ of course they were incredibly modest scores. The funny thing is I hold the BHFS rig better but it is also a different bow. At the VFAA state indoor championship I shot 2 scores FS back-to-back and both were 56 X games with the second game MUCH better than the first. A couple of weeks ago I shot the VBA State indoor in BHFS and shot a 56 X game however this game was close to being a 59 X game and I had at least twice as many IO's as with the FS set up. 

In my case I have shot the BHFS rig better than the FS set up. Only because the BHFS rig holds better for me.

If you are a very good shot the FS set up should get should get you a few points on the Vegas face with little difference on the 5-spot.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Sarge & Macaholic & Spoon13 & 3DShooter80 & ...... well anyone but Jarlicker & me.


Good to know where your friends are. :elf_moon:




MustangLassie said:


> I do learn a heck of a lot from my buds at DCWC :hail: and at the NC Hunter Supply indoor league :hail:. I'm assuming they will tell me to get lost when they're fed up with me :bored: cos I'm unlikely to run out of questions :grin:
> A compound coach would be good, because I'd feel less guilty about taking up someone else's shooting time.


Keep asking questions. It actually makes me go through the process and sometimes reminds me of stuff I didn't think I had forgotten.





MustangLassie said:


> Found this link: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=262930&d=1182023216
> I have made myself a draw length-sized release aid to use at home. Been aiming it at the dots on the kitchen wallpaper this evening. Sometimes the release goes off, other times it doesn't. I'll keep experimenting.:set1_thinking:


Call me if you get stuck with that release. There are some adjustments that can be made that I don't remember if we ever went over. That was my first hinge release and helped me get comfortable shooting one until I go to a point I wanted something different.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Spoon13 said:


> Call me if you get stuck with that release. There are some adjustments that can be made that I don't remember if we ever went over. That was my first hinge release and helped me get comfortable shooting one until I go to a point I wanted something different.


Thanks! I should have asked a long time ago...At first i thought I could figure it out (but I'm not as smart as I thought I was), then I scared myself, so it's been in the bag since then. The indoor league guys showed me last week. 

I think I understand how it works now, at least I've worn out my shoulder today practicing :exercise:. It's already taught me that it works better if I lower my shoulder and keep my elbow down. 
I have adjusted it a little, will try it with the bow later this week.
Til then I have to hope nobody wonders why I have extra mirrors and bits of rope set up around the house


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

Just started shooting Bow Hunter myself after about 5 years of Unlimited and BOY, it is NICE not seeing all the movement  Will still use the unlimited bow for outdoors though. Just needed to try something different for a change.


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## LoneEagle0607 (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm looking forward to hearing and watching your progress. I need to venture into back tension too. I have gone back to my Prestige. Gave up on the Contender Elite. Keep us updated. I've been shooting in my back yard when the weather allows. Looking forward to shooting some outdoor events with you. I couldn't get into indoor this year. Soooo looking forward to outdoors again


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## TeamWinker (Nov 12, 2008)

NC Hunter Supply has an in house level 4 coach. John Kristoff. Next time your in the shop talk to him about scheduling some lessons, he teaches compound as well as recurve.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Yeah and dont forget you may need a clarifier in your peep or verifier if you stay with pins.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Cool! Just checked NFAA, I didn't realise peep clarifies were allowed in BHFS. I will definitely give that a try.
It would surely help my score if I could see the target clearly!


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

You want to use the verifier for pins A clarifier will make things look really bad.


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## fbitang (Feb 25, 2013)

You CAN lower your shoulder and elbow... But DON'T. If you want that hinge to work right, squeezing your shoulder blades together makes the bow pop. All fingers on the release must have equal pressure on them. I can tell you're keeping too much pressure on the index finger after the draw. I understand that you don't want to punch yourself in the mouth, I draw that way too. However, once in anchor, I get on target, and relax my release fingers slightly, and squeeze my shoulder blades together..... POP! This takes up close practice..... Just because you hang up doesn't mean you should make the release faster either... That's an awful error and results in rapid tooth loss. Practice us only good if you practice right. You need 180 degrees from bow wrist to release elbow. Start with these steps and get your release popping properly. Then, properly balance your bow. Assuming correctly tuned bow with proper arrows, your scores will reflect your form improvements. You just can't buy scores. Good luck, shoot straight!!!


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

TeamWinker said:


> NC Hunter Supply has an in house level 4 coach. John Kristoff. Next time your in the shop talk to him about scheduling some lessons, he teaches compound as well as recurve.


Looks like you need to update your hometown Wink  Hope all is well!!


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

fbitang said:


> You CAN lower your shoulder and elbow... But DON'T. If you want that hinge to work right, squeezing your shoulder blades together makes the bow pop. All fingers on the release must have equal pressure on them. I can tell you're keeping too much pressure on the index finger after the draw. I understand that you don't want to punch yourself in the mouth, I draw that way too. However, once in anchor, I get on target, and relax my release fingers slightly, and squeeze my shoulder blades together..... POP! This takes up close practice..... Just because you hang up doesn't mean you should make the release faster either... That's an awful error and results in rapid tooth loss. Practice us only good if you practice right. You need 180 degrees from bow wrist to release elbow. Start with these steps and get your release popping properly. Then, properly balance your bow. Assuming correctly tuned bow with proper arrows, your scores will reflect your form improvements. You just can't buy scores. Good luck, shoot straight!!!


I'm lowering them to get that 180 degrees before I start with the back tension. Realized when I checked my form that I had hunched the shoulder, probably tensing til the release went off. I'm at a very early stage of learning. It will be interesting to find out what it feels like on the bow.

Learning a lot this week, I appreciate it!


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

Rattleman said:


> You want to use the verifier for pins A clarifier will make things look really bad.


Thanks. You guys are better than an archery encyclopedia!
Just read thishttp://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=956418 thread that explained the difference, I understand why a clarifier isn't needed.
I can get the pins in focus, it is the target I can't see well, so I'm not sure a verifier will help me. I use my top pin for 20 yards, tonight I'll have a look at my middle pin to see if that looks clearer. If so, I could set the middle for 20 indoors.
Maybe I should try a bigger peep, too.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

LoneEagle0607 said:


> I'm looking forward to hearing and watching your progress. I need to venture into back tension too. I have gone back to my Prestige. Gave up on the Contender Elite. Keep us updated. I've been shooting in my back yard when the weather allows. Looking forward to shooting some outdoor events with you. I couldn't get into indoor this year. Soooo looking forward to outdoors again


I look forward to catching up! Missed shooting with you over the last year.


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## eddie boyd (Nov 26, 2012)

That's right go Barebow it's coming back.


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## MustangLassie (Aug 24, 2011)

eddie boyd said:


> That's right go Barebow it's coming back.


I'm not good enough to shoot bare bow, I get too frustrated :fuming:

I'm just happy that I finally learned how to use my release properly this week, with a little help from my friends :mracoustic: now it goes off before my arms get into a tug o' war.


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