# How accurate shooting instinctive



## JCole1993 (Aug 21, 2010)

To those of you shooting instinctive how good are your average groups at say 20yds? I’m new to this, just got my first recurve a few days ago, I’ve shot instinctive off of Oneidas bow fishing for years and am pretty efficient at it doing that, playing around with this recurve I’m holding a decent group at 10 yds so far, 3” or so on a good day, still waiting on my arrows I ordered before I can start shooting much farther the ones I have now are way to stiff


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

On a good day 4” at 20 yards, on a not so good day under 6”. I am a hunter and back yard shooter so I’m fine with that.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I started shooting a recurve instinctive. Angle of pie plate is easily do-able.

The problem I had, is when I missed a nice animal I had no reference on what to do to fix it. Instinctive is streaky, when you are on a good streak that’s great. When it goes bad it is rough.

.


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## iFunk (Nov 11, 2021)

Usually within 3" inches at 15 yards. My backyard limits me from going much further. Luckily my neighbor has a nice big garage right on the property line that makes a good backstop in the event of a flyer!


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Beendare said:


> I started shooting a recurve instinctive. Angle of pie plate is easily do-able.
> 
> The problem I had, is when I missed a nice animal I had no reference on what to do to fix it. Instinctive is streaky, when you are on a good streak that’s great. When it goes bad it is rough.


I agree with that. I have tried a few aiming techniques but using an arrow tip to me is like using the end of a baseball bat. What I do isn’t pure instinctive because I do a split vision kind of thing where I do reference the arrow, with that I am very consistent. With no aiming reference i believe it takes a lot more shooting with no big gaps in you practice days. Not using something to aim with does come hard for me though.
The way I deal with that is keeping my shots short on live game, I’m golden at 15 yards or less.


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## Flat Tire (Sep 30, 2014)

you have to pick some different distances and practice.....eventually it is like throwing a baseball


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Go out and shoot, ignore what others are doing, especially when it’s “on a good” vs “on a bad” day since you have no clue what good or bad day means and how many arrows were involved. 60-100 arrows in 3” is elite compound archer accuracy.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Sometimes I can put together a decent looking target at 20 yards. Most of the time there will be a nice cluster, with a flyer or two. It takes a lot of self-control to keep them all tight. I'm still working on it....grin

Here are a few of my typical targets,

35# Bodnik Slick Stick at 20 yards,









40# Toelke Whip at 27 yards,









45# Samick R3 limbs on 21" Hoyt Satori (about 40#??) at 19 yards









45# Galaxy Black Ridge at 20 yards,









45# limbs on Hoyt Satori at 20 yards,









30# R3 limbs on Samick Discovery at 21 yards,


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I can tell you that I shoot some3D tourneys (apx30y max) and have shot with some really good instinctive shooters.

it does tell you something that those instinctive guys rarely place in the top shooters.

.


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## PrimitiveGreek (Sep 9, 2016)

The answer to this riddle is how effective are you in duplicating your form. All archery accuracy regardless of aiming is boosted by exact repitition. How well you do that determines your accuracy.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Beendare said:


> I can tell you that I shoot some3D tourneys (apx30y max) and have shot with some really good instinctive shooters.
> it does tell you something that those instinctive guys rarely place in the top shooters.


It all depends what your goals are with traditional archery.
I do think with foam animal target shooting some type of aiming technique may be required to be competitive. Most traditional hunters I know around here are shooting around the 15 yards or less for hunting set ups.
As for me, as long as I can consistently stay in a small group at my foam deer in ranges I shoot deer at I’m good.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Sometimes I hit the target if I get close enough. 

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## Gimli's Ghost (Jun 29, 2021)

Positioing of the forward foot seems to be very important, for me at least. The ground is rough in the part of the yard where I shoot so if I don't pick a good flat spot to stand I get too many fliers. 
When my positioning is correct I can make mostly 3" or less groups, on my best day recently up to nine arrows with shafts touching. Relation of the groupings to dead center of the aiming disc varies according to the exact angle of the left foot.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

I always wonder why just being "instinctive" is a big deal to some when theres really simple aiming methods to use that goes beyond just accuracy. If troubleshooting faults in your game is something thats important to you, then having a reference & a little structure is probably a big deal to fix it.

I also think that its a bit cloudy what "instinctive" shooting really is. Like some have more structure than they let on and anything thats not hard gapping is probably instinctive to them. Therefore someone, a good, well drilled archer who has learnt to rely on their sight picture, can be a very decent shot.....but not really instinct, but intuition.

But I would agree, barring some very successful and experienced bowhunters, its not seen amongst the top level shooters.


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

Avg. 1 inch at 15 to 20. 25 is a baseball. 30 is a softball. Some days tho......not so much. Slowing down and getting the exact same anchor, sight picture and release is where it's at. The not so much days are when I rush the shot, am sloppy with my anchor, or goof on the release. If I do my part, the bow does its part.


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## c_m_shooter (Aug 15, 2018)

Aiming is probably a better idea. Indoor season just started, go shoot some 300 rounds for a reality check. All you good instinctive shooters should be winning.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

I was never sure about the word “instinctive” and I’m not sure that’s a very accurate word for how many may shoot.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Always gotta be the guys who come into a conversation just to tell everyone how what they do is wrong and do it their way. 
Don't use a glove it's not accurate or consistent and develops a crease.
Don't aim instinctive (which is a poor name for it) because none of the pro shooters do so it can't be accurate. 
Let people shoot how they wanna shoot and if they ask how to do it your way then offer assistance instead of the constant criticism of others choices in style and equipment. 

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## saglick (Sep 5, 2016)

Yellow Nocks said:


> Avg. 1 inch at 15 to 20. 25 is a baseball. 30 is a softball. Some days tho......not so much. Slowing down and getting the exact same anchor, sight picture and release is where it's at. The not so much days are when I rush the shot, am sloppy with my anchor, or goof on the release. If I do my part, the bow does its part.


That is impressive!!!


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

c_m_shooter said:


> Aiming is probably a better idea. Indoor season just started, go shoot some 300 rounds for a reality check. All you good instinctive shooters should be winning.


Yup, ^this^

1" groups at 15-20, go and clean up at Lancaster or vegas.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

GCook said:


> Always gotta be the guys who come into a conversation just to tell everyone how what they do is wrong and do it their way.
> Don't use a glove it's not accurate or consistent and develops a crease.
> Don't aim instinctive (which is a poor name for it) because none of the pro shooters do so it can't be accurate.
> Let people shoot how they wanna shoot and if they ask how to do it your way then offer assistance instead of the constant criticism of others choices in style and equipment.
> ...



Actually, the comments are not against instinctive method, but against the self-declared personal accuracy some are posting. I really believe the aiming method is just the cherry on the pie and you can do great shooting in same place (read environment) as instinctive archer, but no self-taught archer achieved this without tens of years of shooting experience. Even the best instinctive shots of the day like Wolfie Hughes and Jeff Kavanagh blow a tire shooting 4 arrows in a row but that doesn't count for some when they self evaluate themselves, right?
Montana Marine's samples are right on: "pie plate" at 20 yards as averages. That's 240/300 most of the time on a 300 round blue face target. And this means he shoots good.


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## DvonD (Sep 3, 2021)

Beendare said:


> I started shooting a recurve instinctive. Angle of pie plate is easily do-able.
> 
> The problem I had, is when I missed a nice animal I had no reference on what to do to fix it. Instinctive is streaky, when you are on a good streak that’s great. When it goes bad it is rough.
> 
> .


Agreed. I was doing just fine instinctively until I tried different aiming techniques earlier this year. I wanted to increase my accuracy more. I didn’t find a technique I liked so I went back to instinctive, but it threw off my groove so hard it felt like I was starting fresh again. Thankfully I got it back together prior to the season otherwise I would’ve missed my first buck a few weeks ago! Brings the old adage back to mind; if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. 


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Really I don't think most target archers would choose "instinctive". But I don't think most good instinctive shooters are shooting true instinctive. Pretty sure it's more the gap-stinctive. The longer I shoot the more I believe if you are holding for a few a seconds the brain is working it out. 
If I could figure out an anchor point my eye was over the arrow that the sting didn't clip my nose I'd use a repeatable aiming system.

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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

This subject is beaten to death: there is nothing innate in you on how to shoot the bow. The single thing innate in you is that you can train your hand - eye coordination while doing a repetitive motion when there is an intention. We learn to walk, we are not like fawns to "flop and run" after the doe right away. We learn to shoot a bow too. Some ignore this learning process, while others know about it and call it "educated instinctive aiming method" aka no arrow reference is consciously involved while repeating shot after shot. 
Maybe a better alignment will keep your nose away from the line of fire?


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

Marcel, I have never heard thats how they shoot at the big places. I am just trying to be as humane as I can be with the game I shoot. Plus, you ain't seen my bad rounds!


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## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

Beendare said:


> I started shooting a recurve instinctive. Angle of pie plate is easily do-able.
> 
> The problem I had, is when I missed a nice animal I had no reference on what to do to fix it. Instinctive is streaky, when you are on a good streak that’s great. When it goes bad it is rough.
> 
> .


I'm pretty new to trad shooting so take my experience with a grain of salt, but this has been my experience as well. For me it's easier to know where I made a mistake if I'm using some type of aiming. Whatever you choose to do, practice it, and enjoy shooting.


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## Gimli's Ghost (Jun 29, 2021)

Draven Olary said:


> This subject is beaten to death: there is nothing innate in you on how to shoot the bow. The single thing innate in you is that you can train your hand - eye coordination while doing a repetitive motion when there is an intention. We learn to walk, we are not like fawns to "flop and run" after the doe right away. We learn to shoot a bow too.
> Maybe a better alignment will keep your nose away from the line of fire?


Good points.
The only reason I use instinctive shooting is because my vision is a bit wonky due to an injury and rebuilding of the eyesocket.
I'm left with a sort of double astigmatism in what is now my best eye, I see two ghost images on either side of what I'm looking at with my left eye while the right eye though periodically blurry has only one ghost image, none of these ghost images are on the same vertical or horizontal plane.
In bright daylight the ghosts blend with the background and can be ignored. Glasses are of little use since my vision changes constantly.
Trying to aim using anything other than a scope on a rifle often yields poor results.
On the other hand I'm more accurate point shooting a handgun, and to some extent a rifle, without using the sights than most people are using iron sights and aiming carefully. That level of skill took several decades and tens of thousands of rounds to develop. Hitting a two inch disc at 50 feet snap shooting from the draw is average shooting for me. I'm hoping to one day achieve somewhat the same accuracy snap shooting with a bow.

I've made a lot of progress in recent weeks, but nowhere near my goal yet.
Today I set my target stand back another ten feet which brings it to around 50 feet. When I'm sure of my shooting at that distance I'll clear away some brush to move it to at least 25 yards. Thats the limit of backyard shooting space.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Accuracy is relative. 
My range is limited to where I can keep arrows in a 4" circle. If that is 17 yards it's okay.
I don't give a rip **** about some colored circle target. 
But to a target archer it does.
Goes back to what are your goals and objectives. 

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## inigo (Dec 6, 2021)

I agree that instinctive is a poor name for it - there is some aiming going on though. If no aiming at all, you'll get fliers.


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## vincenthanna (Feb 25, 2020)

4 to 5 inch group at twenty yards is a good day for me. I have found that if I slow down I shoot better. But some days are just plain ugly. I try to end the day with a good group. Shot the way you want, with the equipment you want. You are the only one that needs to like it.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

If you want to shoot barebow accurately, then follow the techniques used by those who shoot really well and win competitions. Start with a long heavy weight bow and add several pounds of additional weight for stability. Use techniques to achieve aiming where the tip of the arrow points directly to the desired point of impact. These techniques typically include using a long arrow often weighted to drop quickly for 20-yard shooting. Use a high anchor, shoot 3 under and string walk. Even with this there is a subconscious/instinctive component. Aiming is best achieved by concentrating on the target and the subconscious will achieve aim. With this style of shooting the pros can hit 9s and 10s consistently at 20 yards.

On the far end of the spectrum is traditional, instinctive style with a split finger string position and a lower anchor typically with the index finger at the corner of the mouth. At 20 yards, with proper aim, the tip of the arrow is likely to be pointing to the ground about halfway to the target. Many of us old timers learned this way and still enjoy this shooting style. Of course, in the old days we often shot field at up to 80 yards and even the hunter shoots went to 50 yards. For this style, accuracy at 20 yards is going typically require lots of shooting experience. Hitting mostly 7s, 8s or better is really tough. It is also very hard to maintain total concentration throughout a target shooting session, and a few wild flyers are typical.

Many archers shoot somewhere in between. They might not string walk but often have fairly high anchors and shoot 3 under so the tip of the arrow will be much closer to point on shooting at 20 yards. Again, long and heavy arrows can help close up the gap between the point of the arrow and the point of impact. With this in between style, some shoot gap by picking a point below the intended impact and aligning the tip of the arrow with that point. Accuracy is likely to be somewhere in between the traditional style and the modern barebow style of the pros.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Dont ask people on the internet how good they are at back yard shooting. 

I cant think of a more useless question.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

As someone mentioned above (sorry I didn't want to read back through the thread) the key to accuracy/precision in archery is to be able to do everything exactly the same shot after shot. It doesn't even matter if your form is bad if you do everything exactly the same. Good form just makes that repeatability easier.

There are also a lot of different approaches to aiming or not aiming that arrow consciously at the desired point of impact. Like others here I have never cared for the term instinctive but it has been used forever and isn't going away. I prefer to simply say that I don't use any conscious alignment of the arrow point when I shoot my longbows.

How good you can be with any aiming method depends on how hard you are willing to work at it. Focus on everything you do and strive for consistency. Even arrows porpoising all over the place if shot the same exact way every time will hit the same place assuming matched arrows.

Shoot whatever way makes you happy. If you want to be good, practice...a lot.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Dartwick said:


> Dont ask people on the internet how good they are at back yard shooting.
> 
> I cant think of a more useless question.



I don't know about that, at least it's good interactions between people who enjoy archery in their own way.

It can't be any more useless than the arrogant, condescending, and elitist remarks that it can elicit from others.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Dartwick said:


> Dont ask people on the internet how good they are at back yard shooting.
> 
> I cant think of a more useless question.


I enjoy seeing what other lowly backyard shooters like me are doing on here, for most people it’s all about just having fun and sharing their experience. Apparently for others not so much.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

No its useless.

Im sure many people give honest answers. But many dont - some through dishonesty and some through self delusion.

But ultimately - you cant tell who is who. 
There are a lot of questions that will get you useful feedback. But Ive seen this question over and over through the years - and it isnt one of them.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

I watched someone shoot a 294 in spots
with a modern compound, fingers, and no sight. 

It was almost creepy how good that guy was. I didn’t think It as humanly possible to be that good.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

The groups that trad archers report from backyard shooting tend not to match reality.
We all remember our best shooting when not under pressure, when shooting the same backyard target and when we are undisturbed. If you want a more realistic, representative idea, ask what score they shot the last time they competed at a target archery event. Instead of a score, you are more likely to hear an explanation of why they are not interested in shooting targets. Ask about 3D scores. You might get an answer. I have been to a lot of 3D shoots over the years. There are typically only a few shooters scoring 240 or better. For 3D a typical shot might be at a deer target at about 20 yards, often less. An overall score of 240 means an average of 8 for an individual target. With a roughly 8-10 inch groups needed to score 8 or 10. Obviously quite a few shots are going to be out of that range


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Not good enough. Ultimate goal of coarse is to score 300 on the NFAA 40cm target. Last score shot was a 274 and that sucks. Important thing is to know where you are now, establish intermediate and long term goals and go chase them. 240 to 270's is a bit of work. 270 to 290 is a lot more work a lot more. The 274 is pretty typical and probably won't get any better if I continue to shoot a pedestrian 12,000 arrows a year. Oh instinctive.... well sure..... shooting the same distance a few thousand times and the gap becomes so automatic it's instinctive.


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## Skeptix_907 (Jul 30, 2020)

Draven Olary said:


> Go out and shoot, ignore what others are doing, especially when it’s “on a good” vs “on a bad” day since you have no clue what good or bad day means and how many arrows were involved. 60-100 arrows in 3” is elite compound archer accuracy.


Asking anyone what their average group size is pointless. Most people flat out lie.

People claiming 3"-4" groups shooting instinctive is utterly hilarious. That's like barebow indoor national champion status with no aiming method. Not a chance in the world.


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

If you want to know your average, shoot the NFAA blue face everyday for two weeks. Shoot only two ends of warmups, then score. Average your scoring. Then if you want to know how you would do at NFAA Nationals, deduct 10-20% from your average practice scores. Whether aiming or using instinctive archery techniques, this generally holds true in my experience. What others average scores are really doesn't matter. It is what you shoot and where your skills are at. I can tell you that in my experiences shooting state championships or other competitions, I have never asked a competitor how they aim. If competition is not your goal, then who cares what others average. Enjoy archery and shoot to the best of your abilities. If you want to improve, find a good coach.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

From asking about 20 yard groups from instinctive shooters this thread has drifted to the NFAA Nationals scores and scoring, a bit of a leap.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Every time.

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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

GCook said:


> Accuracy is relative.
> My range is limited to where I can keep arrows in a 4" circle. If that is 17 yards it's okay.
> I don't give a rip **** about some colored circle target.
> But to a target archer it does.
> ...


One thing that differs a bit is target shooters shoot a lot more arrows in a string of shots, hunters have no need for that, it’s the first or second shot that matters.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Longbowfanatic said:


> If you want to know your average, shoot the NFAA blue face everyday for two weeks. Shoot only two ends of warmups, then score. Average your scoring. Then if you want to know how you would do at NFAA Nationals, deduct 10-20% from your average practice scores. Whether aiming or using instinctive archery techniques, this generally holds true in my experience. What others average scores are really doesn't matter. It is what you shoot and where your skills are at. I can tell you that in my experiences shooting state championships or other competitions, I have never asked a competitor how they aim. If competition is not your goal, then who cares what others average. Enjoy archery and shoot to the best of your abilities. If you want to improve, find a good coach.


If you want to improve get smart enough to be a coach. Not shooting up to par because I don't have a coach is an excuse and a poor one.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I gap and I use a fixed crawl on my current hunting bow so my gaps are small to nothing. Most of the time I don't even remember using the arrow.

It's hunting season. The weather was lousy yesterday and I've got a sore arm so I went out and only took 6 shots. 1 from 10, 2 from 15, 2 from 17 and one from 20. The target was a hanging beer can. I hit the can with all but one shot. I blew the first shot from 15.

The only point is that my practice and target are sort of geared toward my goals. A 3d target might be better but I shot mine out and those things are expensive. LOL


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

1canvas said:


> From asking about 20 yard groups from instinctive shooters this thread has drifted to the NFAA Nationals scores and scoring, a bit of a leap.


Yup, evidently I steered this thread a bit off course. I wasn't trying to upset anyone. My point was just about finding what an instinctive archers average is in reality, I was reading a bit of the book The Beginning's Guide to Traditional Archery by Brian J Sorrells. He was advocating shooting a 2" circle out to about 13 yards and trying to keeping 9 of 10 arrows in a 4" circle at 20 yards to build confidence and skills and from what I gathered he was talking about instinctive shooting.


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

3finger said:


> If you want to improve get smart enough to be a coach. Not shooting up to par because I don't have a coach is an excuse and a poor one.


If you're shooting 274 on an NFAA target, you don't need a coach, sir. The coach comment really was just to offer advice to build good shooting fundamentals, that's all. Even the top tier national archers occasionally need a tune up from a coach.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

3finger said:


> If you want to improve get smart enough to be a coach.


Huh? This sounds the same with if you want to drive get smart and become an engineer. The smart archer is already his own Coach.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Draven Olary said:


> Huh? This sounds the same with if you want to drive get smart and become an engineer. The smart archer is already his own Coach.


Good driver.. engineer poor analogy. Smart archer own coach only if the coach is a rigid hard-nosed if you can't keep em in the white get off of my field sort.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

3finger said:


> Good driver.. engineer poor analogy. Smart archer own coach only if the coach is a rigid hard-nosed if you can't keep em in the white get off of my field sort.


Wow. Some of you people sure take the fun out of archery. Disciplined practice is certainly necessary to improve any skill. But if I encountered a coach like that I'd definitely get off his field. All of us who enjoy archery recreationally will never be any good I guess.


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## robertlosekamp (Oct 22, 2021)

Probably pie plate at 20 for me with recurve, maybe more I'm way out of practice.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

3finger said:


> If you want to improve get smart enough to be a coach. Not shooting up to par because I don't have a coach is an excuse and a poor one.


 This is everything that is ass backwards about people learning traditional archery.

We too frequently have the most naturally gifted archers telling the normal majority of archers how to shoot. 

Being a good coach doesnt mean youre the best shot - it means you understand how people can maximize their ability.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

3finger said:


> Smart archer own coach only if the coach is a rigid hard-nosed if you can't keep em in the white get off of my field sort.


That's the definition of smart archer anyway.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

1canvas said:


> One thing that differs a bit is target shooters shoot a lot more arrows in a string of shots, hunters have no need for that, it’s the first or second shot that matters.


Maybe but I shoot 3 to 6 arrows in an "end". Now I may put four in spots on a block and two in a 3D target but I shoot repetitively to train muscle memory and I just like to shoot. 
I don't log 100 to 150 arrows per day anymore but 30 plus isn't unusual this time of year.
Target shooters are generally shooting lighter bows which lends itself to high arrow counts. At 35lbs shooting 200 arrows would be easy. At 55lbs I'm done by 50 arrows. At least till later in the day.

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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Longbowfanatic said:


> Yup, evidently I steered this thread a bit off course. I wasn't trying to upset anyone. My point was just about finding what an instinctive archers average is in reality, I was reading a bit of the book The Beginning's Guide to Traditional Archery by Brian J Sorrells. He was advocating shooting a 2" circle out to about 13 yards and trying to keeping 9 of 10 arrows in a 4" circle at 20 yards to build confidence and skills and from what I gathered he was talking about instinctive shooting.


It wasn't just you. This topic arises fairly regularly and the guys who shoot a regimented way, standing in perfect form at given distances from targets, thing their way fits all archers. It just doesn't.
It's not wrong one way or the other. 
However in all fairness those with a true aiming system are consistently more accurate, especially at ranges past 15 or twenty yards.

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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

GCook said:


> It wasn't just you. This topic arises fairly regularly and the guys who shoot a regimented way, standing in perfect form at given distances from targets, thing their way fits all archers. It just doesn't.
> It's not wrong one way or the other.
> However in all fairness those with a true aiming system are consistently more accurate, especially at ranges past 15 or twenty yards.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I get it. Sometimes the aimers, myself included, can be the loudest voice in the room. I didn’t mean to be that guy. Lol.


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Disregard. See ^


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I've known a couple of extremely accurate, self taught"instinctive" shooters. Most of us are average at best. Some mediocre as I am or at worst, poor and shouldn't be hunting. 
Many of the poorer ones I know appear to over bowed and think they are better shots than they are. 


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## azklmsr (Jan 1, 2019)

Original question was how accurate shooting instinctive. Not getting into the "definition of Instinctive" argument because I don't hate myself, but I think of Instinctive shooting as an art form. Ever see a Pin Strip guy at a car show that can lay down a pinstrip like magic. They are artists. Guys like Jeff Kavenaugh, He is an artist. I love to shoot instinctively. I'm not bad out to 20 yards and on good days, inside of 4" is no big deal. Not all days are good days. As distances climb, my technique incorporates more split vision and at 40 yards I'm thinking about the point of my arrow quite a bit. 

When i pop pigeons off the fence at 20 yards, I focus only on a spot on the pigeon. If I miss, I can generally self diagnose a form problem. I like to reach out on rabbits to 40 yards, and that is a very different issue. I am thinking a lot about trajectory, arrow point etc. 

With more skill and time, I'd like to think my pure instinctive range would increase as my "art form" gets more engrained. at nearly 60 yrs old, that may or may not happen.

Shoot a lot. Have fun a lot. Enjoy the sport. Its wonderful


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Since this thread is already drifting, I'm going to ask this here.

Regarding gap shooting vs instinctive.

I can see where getting a consistent gap works fairly well on a formal target range. There are known distances and consistent things to index off of (target edges, frames, backers etc.

When gap shooters are in the field shooting in a natural vegetative environment where things are very random, how do you calculate where to hold your gap in the natural and random target setting and estimated distance? What do you index off of?

When I was starting out I used the gap method, and found myself placing a pine cone as an index point, then adjusting the position of the pine cone until I was hitting the target.


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## Broncman (Jul 14, 2020)

When I started trad about 2 years ago, I aimed with the point and gapped. I have since transitioned to instinctive. Am I better?
Depends... I can not tell you where my point is in relationship to my target. What I focus on is grip, string elbow and anchor point, and my body alignment with bow. My game to 20 yards took a hit but as I diagnosed, it was always a form issue. 

Focusing less on a "point of aim with the arrow point" has allowed my mind to focus on form and the exact spot I want to hit.

My groups have gotten a lot better and so has my confidence . Any breakdown now in groups and I retrace something back to form.

For me that is usually my string elbow alignment to my bow hand.

Shot my first deer this year trad and 3D season starts in Jan. I will be foregoing my target compound in favor of a longbow this year. 

Do what brings you enjoyment, but pay close attention to cause and effect. If you do that
You can coach yourself to a degree. Might take longer. Having some watch can help diagnose a breakdown in form you have not quite caught yet.


PS, I will add that a properly tuned arrow is critical to instinctive shooting. If your form is perfect but your arrow flight is erratic do to bad tune, your mind will never learn the arrow path and trajectory. 

Just as your mind learns body form from blank bailing, it will learn arrow flight from a well tuned arrow...


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

This target is roughly an 8” circle.








A “pie plate” so to speak. This is where I am at 20 yards. Average 90 outta hundred in this target. Not in the yellow, just in the target face. At 25 yards I use a paper “dinner” plate. Roughly 9.5” Average 90 out of a hundred in the plate at 25 yards. I shoot every day. I’m very happy with my ability after 2.5 years shooting instinctively.
Reading through this thread (should) make me feel like I suck compared to what some here claim as the accuracy they achieve. I know there are those that do have that amazing accuracy but those are the guys winning big competitions and everyone knows who they are. If some of you guys really can put all your shots inside the 4” circle you claim…there’s still room to register for the Lancaster Classic and you should have no problem winning it. Now if what you mean is that a lot of your arrows are inside that 4” circle but not all, that’s not the same as holding a 4” group at 20 yards. This past summer I set up one of my Satoris to try string walking for 3D. I will admit I had to use a rangefinder cause that’s something else I can’t do, but out to 30 yards I was doing really well at staying in the 8/10/11. Didn’t feel like traditional archery to me. Felt like shooting compound again (K40) Gave it up. One good thing came of it is that I now prefer 3under when I shoot as apposed to split.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

Here's some real candid and honest results. I was making a little vid on the Southwest Archery Spyder XL. Shooting targets from 20 yards out to 50 yards. First couple minutes is kind of show-and-tell. Shooting starts around 2:35.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

These may be real and honest results, but this is not what I would consider to be an example of instinctive accuracy. Shooting long, heavy arrows and shooting 3 under help to minimize the gap at shorter distances so the tip of the arrow can be used as a sight. With a bit of shooting, the gaps at different distances can be determined. Shooting at known, measured off distances helps to achieve decent accuracy with the gap style of shooting. Again, there is no precise, generally agreed upon definition of instinctive shooting but shooting gap would not fit my idea of instinctive shooting.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Learn to gap at the bow. Arrow 1/2" under at 20 yards (for example) is a there in your peripheral naturally.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

camperjim said:


> These may be real and honest results, but this is *not what I would consider to be an example of instinctive accuracy.* Shooting long, heavy arrows and shooting 3 under help to minimize the gap at shorter distances so the tip of the arrow can be used as a sight. With a bit of shooting, the gaps at different distances can be determined. Shooting at known, measured off distances helps to achieve decent accuracy with the gap style of shooting. Again, there is no precise, generally agreed upon definition of instinctive shooting but shooting gap would not fit my idea of instinctive shooting.


That is kind of my point. Real world, cold start, backyard archer action.

I'm sure many backyard archers do far better.

Sometimes it comes together, sometimes not so much. Either way, I'm enjoying it, and striving to improve.


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## Stick_Bow (Dec 8, 2021)

I haven’t shot in almost 9-10 months been recovering but my last groups as an instinctive shooter are as pics show. Shots are anywhere between 20-35 yards with foam and animals.

Everyone is gifted and talented differently. I would be happy to hit a cantelope at 10 yards when I get to shoot again. Just because one man can shoot well one way doesn’t mean it works for you. I grew up shooting red Ryder BB guns and shot guns. I learned the arc of the bb gun and learned the snap follow through of the shot gun. I am a very fast instinctive snap shooter.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Then you are the 1%. So congratulations. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## azklmsr (Jan 1, 2019)

good days come and go - 20 yards on a really good day! - They aren't all good days for sure!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MontanaMarine said:


> Since this thread is already drifting, I'm going to ask this here.
> 
> Regarding gap shooting vs instinctive.
> 
> ...


For hunting...
I hold my arrow point at about the same spot out to about 25 yards. At very short distance I'll hit a little low, at the midrange I'll be a touch high and I'll be a bit low at the far end.

As long as the distance isn't "too far" I'm in the kill zone of a deer. The only real range estimation I do in the field is to decide whether or not the target is "close enough".

The greatest change in impact per change in distance is at the far end. Realistically, while I practice for it I don't really take hunting shots out there anyway.

If I'm shooting at a squirrel I parse that out a little more but there's no more "calculation" than if you were shooting "instinctive".

My "system" is what I settled on with the specific intent of being simple and taking the guesswork out. I use a fixed crawl with a point on of about 20 yards. I just point the arrow and shoot.

It's not really much different than shooting "instinctive" with a very high anchor...the crawl gets the arrow closer to my eye.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

MontanaMarine said:


> Since this thread is already drifting, I'm going to ask this here.
> 
> Regarding gap shooting vs instinctive.
> 
> ...


 I think a lot of gap shooters with practice when shooting under 20 yards tend to use the same mechanics and and windage method but "instinctively" estimate the range and gap when it suits the situation.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

MontanaMarine said:


> Since this thread is already drifting, I'm going to ask this here.
> 
> Regarding gap shooting vs instinctive.
> 
> ...


1. To hit the target from a specific distance, the archer X has the same stance at full draw in both circumstances: instinctive aiming or gap shooting. The archer X using instinctive aiming is estimating the distance to the target by gut feeling - he doesn't even think about it in yards or meters. The archer X gapper is estimating the distance to the target using a personal way of measuring it BUT this will be validated by the gut feeling. The archer X using instinctive aiming looks at the place he wants to hit and shoots. The archer X gapper is looking at the place he wants to hit, acknowledge the arrow position on the contour of the target (his learnt gap for that distance) and shoots.

2. Marked or unmarked argument is ridiculous if you look from this perspective for a gapper. He will approximate the distance to the target and has a gap in mind before drawing the bow disregarding if is marked or unmarked distance. The smart gapper will use a bow and arrow combo that will keep the arrow tip inside the target's contour for the distances he shoots. Any environmental changes are not affecting him while the environmental changes will affect the instinctive shooter.

3. If you want to learn to shoot gap, learn how to find your gaps first. You are wasting too much time using that cone, trying to find the cone position.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

All this talk about gaps, crawls, target sizes, ridiculously small groups supposedly shot at 20 yards, other known distances, point on, etc., etc 

Does anybody just walk around their shooting area and just stop and shoot from random locations? Does anybody shoot from sitting, kneeling, leaning around a tree? Does anybody do any roving through woods or fields picking impromptu targets? If you did you might learn the meaning of that indefinable, terrible word called instinctive. You might also have a really good time shooting your bow.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Bill, you know the difference between learning the alphabet and writting a letter? if yes, you understand that your question is as stupid as it gets. You have a method and how you make it work is up to you. If you don't shoot random distances or stances to understand it, you have - IQ.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

Draven Olary said:


> Bill, you know the difference between learning the alphabet and writting a letter? if yes, you understand that your question is as stupid as it gets. You have a method and how you make it work is up to you. If you don't shoot random distances or stances to understand it, you have - IQ.


OK. Pardon my stupidity. I must have missed something in this discussion. I will leave this to you higher intellects.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Yes, you missed one thing: gap is a method of aiming, the same as the instinctive aiming. If you would have read just above your comment, you would have understood that the single difference between the instinctive and aimer is just the use of the arrow in the sight picture. For all archers, the important part is to send the arrow "there". How ? it is up to them - I never disputed this. Trying to make shooting "unknown distances", "different positions" and so on as "proprietary training" for an aiming method is stupid - and I am sorry to be blunt. Let's say you are novice gapper and you found your gaps. If you don't go out there, shooting to see what you can do with your "findings" is as pointless as a massage on a wooden leg.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

Since we are being blunt you might try working on your reading comprehension. Nothing in my post above is in any way indicative of not understanding the relationship between the two methods. I merely inquired, since the subject of the thread was about instinctive shooting, if anyone did much random shooting of that nature. Much of the discussion had wandered to more structured shooting and aiming methods. Don't read things into my statements just because you feel the need to express your feelings of intellectual superiority. I've been watching this discussion about instinctive shooting, what it is, what it isn't, why it doesn't work, why it does, and all of the complaints about the word itself with people constantly quoting dictionaries for about 50 years. It's nothing new and it will never end.

But thank you for your educational comments.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

I've tried walking around 'stump shooting' a couple times. It's fun, but I found it too destructive to the arrows. Usually end up jamming the insert/point up into the shaft, splitting it all to hell.....grin

I think our semi-arid climate is part of the problem. Things tend to be dry, hard, and fairly rocky ground I believe it would be a lot more fun in a wetter, more vegetative place, where things are in various, and softer, states of decay.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Bill_in_TR said:


> Don't read things into my statements just because you feel the need to express your feelings of intellectual superiority.


Quote : _"...If you did_ [all the shooting as enumerated]_ you might learn the meaning of that indefinable, terrible word called instinctive."_

That's as condescending as it gets, and please, don't talk about superiority - yours is bigger than anything read in this topic.


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## creidv (Sep 21, 2008)

I‘d suggest that a moving target is a good example of instinctive shooting.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Yes, shooting a moving target or a moving archer shooting - horse archery - are the best examples for that “intuitive aiming”.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Draven Olary said:


> Yes, you missed one thing: gap is a method of aiming, the same as the instinctive aiming. If you would have read just above your comment, you would have understood that the single difference between the instinctive and aimer is just the use of the arrow in the sight picture. For all archers, the important part is to send the arrow "there". How ? it is up to them - I never disputed this. Trying to make shooting "unknown distances", "different positions" and so on as "proprietary training" for an aiming method is stupid - and I am sorry to be blunt. Let's say you are novice gapper and you found your gaps. If you don't go out there, shooting to see what you can do with your "findings" is as pointless as a massage on a wooden leg.


Personally I find your analogies to be quite worthless, dull and lacking in entertainment value.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Eh, I will survive. If you want entertainment, go out more.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Draven Olary said:


> Bill, you know the difference between learning the alphabet and writting a letter? if yes, you understand that your question is as stupid as it gets. You have a method and how you make it work is up to you. If you don't shoot random distances or stances to understand it, you have - IQ.


What is your issue.
His first post was totally reasonable - and you answered it like a miserable jack ass.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Anything else about the subject Dartwick? Other than suppositions I mean.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

For anyone else who feels my post was condescending I apologize. I merely was suggesting that folks might try some less structured shooting to enjoy their archery and get a feel for what instinctive shooting is about to a certain extent.

For those who continue to want to read things into my comments that aren't there have a nice life.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

For archers who really want to be good instinctive shooters, a very good source of information is Rick Welch. Watch these 2 videos:


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Bill_in_TR said:


> All this talk about gaps, crawls, target sizes, ridiculously small groups supposedly shot at 20 yards, other known distances, point on, etc., etc
> 
> Does anybody just walk around their shooting area and just stop and shoot from random locations? Does anybody shoot from sitting, kneeling, leaning around a tree? Does anybody do any roving through woods or fields picking impromptu targets? If you did you might learn the meaning of that indefinable, terrible word called instinctive. You might also have a really good time shooting your bow.


I'll give you a perspective from a competitive 3D shooter, I would be surprised if hunters who care about a decent shot did not do something similar......

When in full on competition mode and there's something to "play for" that being provincial to world level, and I compete in the annoyingly named "instinctive" division (name change incoming so theres some good news!) I do what you speak of.
After my boring things like 300rds, like bailing, let down drills and all that yawny, reinforcement stuff & if light, energy and time permits I do walkbacks, and I just hit my 3D's from random places........those things engrain my sight picture relative to my target. Does that then become "instinctive"?  
Hunting season and I'll always start the session with a cold shot on a deer (or similar sized) target
But for me, it is enjoyable but I almost always have to earn that time, I rarely if ever just shoot my 3D's and I have no time for stump shooting or anything that I can't measure at some point during the session.

My training is now zen time which I enjoy, I hope one day I'll be able to just fling a few and leave it at that. But I like success too and that too is earned.


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## mathewsman109 (Jan 29, 2012)

I use what I would call split vision, once I get to anchor I use the tip of my arrow to get my left/right lined out then focus on the spot I want to hit, and just keep pulling until the shot breaks, it happens within a millisecond far as lining the arrow, on most days I shoot farely well at 20 yards and in, other days not so much. I’d be lying if I say I don’t see the arrow but I don’t pay much attention to it as far as up/down or left/right when I hit anchor. You can be really accurate shooting without a aiming method and instinctive/split vision. I don’t take a rangefinder when I go shoot 3ds or when I’m hunting, but I usually don’t shoot past 30 yards on foam, On especially long shots/fun shots I’ll admit it’s hit and miss, fun but just not that accurate when I don’t have a dedicated aiming system, just the nature of the beast. When I’m hunting I limit my shots to 20 yards and in, picture of the deer was shot @5 yards. Lots of shooting and eventually Your mind just lines the picture you see and your arm up. Every single person has a different shot and method of how they do it, that’s what makes this sport so much fun. When people get on here and start doing the old fashioned archerytalk arguing it puts a sore on archery, and this community.


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## JCole1993 (Aug 21, 2010)

This has drifted way off course, like I said I’m new to Recurve’s, I’ve shot what I call instinctive bow fishing for over 10 years, I acquire my target but staring at it and focusing on only it, draw back, as soon as I hit my anchor point the arrows on its way, I don’t look at the tip of my arrow or anything else. To me that is pure instinctive but maybe it’s not? Try shooting at fish moving out in a hurry at 15 yds on front of the boat and see if you have time to gap anything, it doesn’t work very well, I know that’s a lot different then bow hunting deer, and I don’t plan to hunt with this thing til I feel comfortable with it.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

marcelxl said:


> I'll give you a perspective from a competitive 3D shooter, I would be surprised if hunters who care about a decent shot did not do something similar......
> 
> When in full on competition mode and there's something to "play for" that being provincial to world level, and I compete in the annoyingly named "instinctive" division (name change incoming so theres some good news!) I do what you speak of.
> After my boring things like 300rds, like bailing, let down drills and all that yawny, reinforcement stuff & if light, energy and time permits I do walkbacks, and I just hit my 3D's from random places........those things engrain my sight picture relative to my target. Does that then become "instinctive"?
> ...


I fully appreciate the need for structure and discipline when focusing on competitive archery. It is also true for a number of pursuits in the archery world. My days of interest in any organized competition are long behind me. At 75 and with occasional health issues I am just happy to be shooting. Fortunately I am still able to do so almost as much as I'd like. Like you I find the term instinctive annoying. That is mainly because of the controversy stirred up by just the word.


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## Broncman (Jul 14, 2020)

Bill, I agree with you...I think the others may have their underwear a little to tight...

I shoot competitively and do well. This will be my first year trad though. I have gapped using the riser and the point. Both methods.

But to wander aimlessly through the woods and shoot at a whim, off hand, standing on a log, around a corner, or just raise and shoot with no reference to riser or riser gaps, point or arrow reference is about as pure insttinct as you get!

Also a hell of a lot of fun! 

I started trad because of this very reason. Bunch of old geezers at my club shoot every week. I started shooting with them.

One of them hops on a stump and shoot a 3D target through a hole in the brush. Then every one tries it. No time to aim or gap, just shoot.

We had the most fun at those weekly shoots.

Watched several guys shoot from the waist at 10 yards , flat bow, "ambush" style that could center mass a 3D target damn near every time. That is fun!


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Bill_in_TR said:


> I fully appreciate the need for structure and discipline when focusing on competitive archery. It is also true for a number of pursuits in the archery world. My days of interest in any organized competition are long behind me. At 75 and with occasional health issues I am just happy to be shooting. Fortunately I am still able to do so almost as much as I'd like. Like you I find the term instinctive annoying. That is mainly because of the controversy stirred up by just the word.


And what He said^^

Some people get way too pissy these days about nothing, gone are the times you can discuss, even disagree and walk away enlightened. These threads always do it.

I'd love to see some of them in the real world, let them show us all how good they are and how well they'd get along with everyone without the anonymity.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

marcelxl said:


> I'd love to see some of them in the real world, let them show us all how good they are and how well they'd get along with everyone without the anonymity.


This would be interesting to see for sure. I doubt it will be much different though if the same things are said in real life.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JCole1993 said:


> This has drifted way off course, like I said I’m new to Recurve’s, I’ve shot what I call instinctive bow fishing for over 10 years, I acquire my target but staring at it and focusing on only it, draw back, as soon as I hit my anchor point the arrows on its way, I don’t look at the tip of my arrow or anything else. To me that is pure instinctive but maybe it’s not? Try shooting at fish moving out in a hurry at 15 yds on front of the boat and see if you have time to gap anything, it doesn’t work very well, I know that’s a lot different then bow hunting deer, and I don’t plan to hunt with this thing til I feel comfortable with it.


I haven't done any bow fishing in a very long time but I don't think I ever took any bow fishing shots anywhere near 15 yards. The main concern for me wasn't aiming so much as figuring out where the fish really was because of the light refraction. As the distance and need for precision increase the game changes some.


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## JCole1993 (Aug 21, 2010)

MGF said:


> I haven't done any bow fishing in a very long time but I don't think I ever took any bow fishing shots anywhere near 15 yards. The main concern for me wasn't aiming so much as figuring out where the fish really was because of the light refraction. As the distance and need for precision increase the game changes some.


I do a lot of it, at night most shots are super close to the boat, in the daytime on spooky fish especially big head you better be ready to take some long shots.


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## robertlosekamp (Oct 22, 2021)

MontanaMarine said:


> 45# Galaxy Black Ridge at 20 yards,


How do you like the Black Ridge? I haven't been able to find much information on them.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Draven Olary said:


> Anything else about the subject Dartwick? Other than suppositions I mean.


Its not supposition - he made a comment - and you responded like a a pugnacious jerk.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Bowfishing was a big part of spring and summer fun for years. We spent a lot of nights pulling in piles of carp, buffalo and spotted gar. But I really don't like staying up that late anymore and have only one small john boat I tow boat lifts and cradles around with.
Bowfishing has little relationship with shooting a bow with good form and accuracy. Target or hunting. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Dartwick said:


> Its not supposition - he made a comment - and you responded like a a pugnacious jerk.


I was asking if you still have something on the subject of the topic - something you know from your experience not suppositions about what an aimer thinks. Until now, the pungacious jerk and jack ass it is you.Read your first comment in here. A new archer comes asking something and you cut him short like you are the second coming of the Jesus, judgemental and the wrath of god, knowing all saying to him there was no useless question you can think of. Crawl back in the hole you came from. And back on the ignore list with you too.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Draven Olary said:


> I was asking if you still have something on the subject of the topic - something you know from your experience not suppositions about what an aimer thinks. Until now, the pungacious jerk and jack ass it is you.Read your first comment in here. A new archer comes asking something and you cut him short like you are the second coming of the Jesus, judgemental and the wrath of god, knowing all saying to him there was no useless question you can think of. Crawl back in the hole you came from. And back on the ignore list with you too.


I said a particular question that is asked here every other month was dumb - because we can empirically determine that people lie in response to it over and over.

You simply made an attack on some poster for asking a reasonable open ended question with Socratic over tones. 

You just like to be mean and nasty.


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

Draven Olary said:


> suppositions about what an aimer thinks.


Is that what all this hostility is about, not following an aimer"s religious beliefs?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Not quite. More about what others think and express without actually trying it. There are people who think that using an aiming system other than a sight hinder their archery skills because an aiming system is just for known distances / doesn't fit in the woods. How about first trying it to understand it.
Do you agree that by acquiring a skill you acquire a way of thinking too? If you agree with this, you understand that there is no religious belief involved. Having a glimpse at the target your mind goes in the pattern you learnt: distance, establish gap in a blink of the eye - with time this becomes just a feel good and ready to shoot. The accuracy is a result of how good were you in your approximations. Becoming accurate is a result of practice not due to an aiming system and archers are not two categories: target oriented and "instinctive". Do whatever pleases you, but don't romanticize one just because it is the only thing you know and continue the myth that just when shooting instinctive you are enjoying the archery. When you hit the target is what brings joy in archery, but maybe now I am pushing my idea about what archery should be on a topic about accuracy.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

I don't know about hostility, but these sorts of threads can be misleading especially regarding the OP's initial question about instinctive accuracy.

First we all have a natural tendency to discount poor results and remember and often record good results. Next backyard shooting tends to achieve the best possible results and those results may not hold up very well when compared with competitions such as target or 3D rounds. Hunting results are likely to be even a lot worse.

Next we often find, as in this thread, the results obtained are not based on instinctive shooting. Instead we find archers shooting gap with long, heavy arrows and also shooting 3 under. Some are also string walkers. That is not to imply there is anything wrong with these styles, but they are not the same as instinctive shooting.


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## Broncman (Jul 14, 2020)

So you can't be instinctive 3 under??


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Yes it can be three under.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Gimli's Ghost (Jun 29, 2021)

Just my opinion but I believe learning to shoot instinctively can improve final results when using any sort of aiming method.
Native American hunters were known to drop birds on the wing, not something you are likely to do by taking a dead aim.

When young I practised throwing knives and hatchets, neither is dependent on aiming because its simply not possible. Some axe throwing can be done by aiming, to some extent, using both hands with blade directly in front of your eyes.

No one aims a javelin , its simply not feasible. The entire body has to work together. The eyes are only a part of building the 3D image in your mind that allows you to place your projectile where you want it.
The overused terms "Positional Awareness" and "Situational Awareness" are a large part of of it.

One might take dead aim at the target but unless your feet are positioned properly and your form adequate you can still miss.
When a moving target presents itself for seconds at most theres no time to think all this through. It has to be instinctive.

Hunting from a blind or treestand can result in an animal being unaware of danger till its too late. Take your time and aim if you like. But as many posts on this board indicate it the prey bolts or even begins to all the careful aiming in the world won't guarantee a fatal hit. When it runs you are back to trusting your instincts, right or wrong.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Gimli's Ghost said:


> Just my opinion but I believe learning to shoot instinctively can improve final results when using any sort of aiming method.
> Native American hunters were known to drop birds on the wing, not something you are likely to do by taking a dead aim.
> 
> When young I practised throwing knives and hatchets, neither is dependent on aiming because its simply not possible. Some axe throwing can be done by aiming, to some extent, using both hands with blade directly in front of your eyes.
> ...


Fortunately I can shoot a whole lot better than I can throw anything. LOL

I grew up shooting running rabbits and birds on the wing. I always used the bead on that shotgun as brief as the aiming time might have been. I used to shoot areal targets with handguns and rifles and I always used the sights. 

I too have thrown knives, hawks and hatchets. Fortunately I wasn't dependent on that to bag a limit of squirrels. LOL


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Draven I think what you are missing is that if we wanted a sight, we could have a real sight. Not the tip of our arrow. I have $250 sight on my compound.
I know not using a sight or sighting method impacts my effective range. And that's okay with me. I'm more than willing to keep my hunting shots short, let animals pass by and wait for another chance. 
And in those instances where I need the range and pinpoint accuracy at that longer range, I use my compound. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

GC You don’t want an arrow and I can understand this, but others should know about it. It’s not a sin and truth to be told, if you don’t trust your skill to take the shot no aiming system will help you. But will help you to develop the trust. If I would train someone I would not teach him an aiming system before he is good enough instinctive shooter and capable to group arrows around the point he wants to hit - but this is another story. Interesting enough you said you would use the arrow if the nose wouldn’t hurt while trying it. As long as you are happy, nobody’s opinion should count. The topic started with “what accuracy can be expected when shooting instinctive” or similar. My position is the same as first post I wrote: Go out and find out. Addendum now: If you are not happy, find other methods - they are not as bad as some claim. You can become from gapper an “instinctive” aka processing the information from the sight picture below the conscious level with time and good practice. I think Byron Ferguson said he is instinctive shooter because his brain memorized so good the gaps he doesn’t think about them when he takes (some of) the shots. The archer who got the 3rd in 3D world champ two years ago, a gapper, said he is taking the 10yards and in shots based on intuition not gaps - aka the sight picture felt right. Being an aimer can make you a better instinctive shooter too, not just the vice-versa works.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

robertlosekamp said:


> How do you like the Black Ridge? I haven't been able to find much information on them.


I'm enjoying it. It's a budget production bow, so I don't expect it to measure up to my Toelke Whip.

Here's a couple vids I posted up about it, if you want to see it in use.
Galaxy Black Ridge Longbow - YouTube


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## mike_mck2 (Aug 23, 2021)

See what is possible shooting instinctive, check out Gordon Monaghan, on youtube.


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## mike_mck2 (Aug 23, 2021)

Or this guy:


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## rhampton739 (Oct 17, 2021)

JCole1993 said:


> To those of you shooting instinctive how good are your average groups at say 20yds? I’m new to this, just got my first recurve a few days ago, I’ve shot instinctive off of Oneidas bow fishing for years and am pretty efficient at it doing that, playing around with this recurve I’m holding a decent group at 10 yds so far, 3” or so on a good day, still waiting on my arrows I ordered before I can start shooting much farther the ones I have now are way to stiff


If you just got your first recurve and the only instinctive shooting was bow fishing with an Oneida, how did you learn the proper form for instinctive shooting?


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

Draven Olary said:


> Not quite. More about what others think and express without actually trying it. There are people who think that using an aiming system other than a sight hinder their archery skills because an aiming system is just for known distances / doesn't fit in the woods. How about first trying it to understand it.
> Do you agree that by acquiring a skill you acquire a way of thinking too? If you agree with this, you understand that there is no religious belief involved. Having a glimpse at the target your mind goes in the pattern you learnt: distance, establish gap in a blink of the eye - with time this becomes just a feel good and ready to shoot. The accuracy is a result of how good were you in your approximations. Becoming accurate is a result of practice not due to an aiming system and archers are not two categories: target oriented and "instinctive". Do whatever pleases you, but don't romanticize one just because it is the only thing you know and continue the myth that just when shooting instinctive you are enjoying the archery. When you hit the target is what brings joy in archery, but maybe now I am pushing my idea about what archery should be on a topic about accuracy.


Why do you assume that because people prefer one way of shooting most of the time that they haven't tried others? Perhaps that is how they arrived at their preference. Perhaps they even use more than one method depending on circumstance. Perhaps they have tried multiple archery disciplines and even shoot them at different times of the year. Not everybody is narrowly focused on either target or 3D or hunting. Many folks tend to be but a fair number of people are more diversified.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

How many people have the innate baseline ability that would allow them to be a successful high school baseball pitcher if they practiced?

A minority. These are the people who might excel at dont see the arrow style instinctive archery.

I have a brother with unusually good coordination and spatial awareness. Hes not a professional athlete or anything but he would be in the top 5 or so percent for anything from throwing a ball accurately to riding a motorcycle fast and smooth.
Im average.

He doesnt care about archery but hell sometimes shoot with me on if the kids are shooting. If you just watched him you would think instinctive archery is the way to go. The only instruction he ever needed was how to hold the bow how to release and and a little bit about anchoring. If he practiced 20 minutes with a bow he could be ready to shoot at deer at 20 yards.
Theres always a few peiople like him in any group. That doesnt mean the rest of us should be taking their advice.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Bill, Diversity is good. I don’t assume, just read what it is said by some about a specific aiming system without even trying it - it is easy to see this if you actually did it. I am asking you to pull any old posts of me where I was saying you should do it “my way”. “My way” until 12 years ago was shooting yumi “instinctively”. When I was reading “instinctive” is for short distances made me to think ***? If you shoot long enough long distances you can become a very good shooter without a “regimented” aiming method. But I was missing a point: none had a formal training in background to rely on it - yes, formal training teaches you how important is the execution. And this is universal for any type of archery. Coming back to your question, for the ones who tried an other aiming system or archery type and decided is not for them great! They are articulated when they write about their preference and in worst case scenario “we agree to disagree”. Most of the posters here have no formal training. The assumption that they are just intuitive aimers is close to 99%. There are very few instinctive archers who thrive in archery. Hunting requires other skills too, and I think I said it here: you don’t need to be the best archer you can be to become a prolific hunter. But not all want to be hunters only. At the end, do what fits you, but don’t stop to one thing because your friend told you it is bad for what you want to achieve. And until now, seeing the arrow is bad - the moment you see it, you better use a sight.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Broncman said:


> So you can't be instinctive 3 under??


Its a question I ask. 3 under? Close to the eye? holding at full draw? Instinctive? Even closing an eye? 
Just my observations with people I see out there swearing they are things like "purely instinctive". Whatever, it does not offend me I just don't think some people are very honest with themselves.

For the record, I think waaaaay too much gets made of "instinctive archery" by "instinctive archers" and I find it very curious how an aiming method defines you and your shooting and then get bent out of shape when questioned.

Besides, aiming is such a wee part of the process.

But YouTube archers and forum dwellers seem to thrive on it, and how much credence you give to most of those is up to you. I'm a tough crowd, I like things like credentials or results in who I like to listen to, internet blowhards don't do it for me.


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## MontanaMarine (Nov 22, 2019)

I see archery as a journey, where the journey is the destination. I'm only about 2 1/2 years into my journey. A lot to learn and discover.

Everyone's journey is different, and none of them are wrong.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Draven Olary said:


> GC You don’t want an arrow and I can understand this, but others should know about it. It’s not a sin and truth to be told, if you don’t trust your skill to take the shot no aiming system will help you. But will help you to develop the trust. If I would train someone I would not teach him an aiming system before he is good enough instinctive shooter and capable to group arrows around the point he wants to hit - but this is another story. Interesting enough you said you would use the arrow if the nose wouldn’t hurt while trying it. As long as you are happy, nobody’s opinion should count. The topic started with “what accuracy can be expected when shooting instinctive” or similar. My position is the same as first post I wrote: Go out and find out. Addendum now: If you are not happy, find other methods - they are not as bad as some claim. You can become from gapper an “instinctive” aka processing the information from the sight picture below the conscious level with time and good practice. I think Byron Ferguson said he is instinctive shooter because his brain memorized so good the gaps he doesn’t think about them when he takes (some of) the shots. The archer who got the 3rd in 3D world champ two years ago, a gapper, said he is taking the 10yards and in shots based on intuition not gaps - aka the sight picture felt right. Being an aimer can make you a better instinctive shooter too, not just the vice-versa works.


I don't disagree with that. 
My problem with my particular "style" is when it is off, I don't hunt or I take the compound. That is not often but it happened last year late season and I finished the season with my compound. This year I've done okay so far. Good shots, good blood trails, lots of ground venison. 

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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

GC, as long as you know something is wrong and you switch or stop is great. I’ve seen your hunting results and you had a great year. Grats! Very few know that Bisch was IBO medalist a couple of years ago as Instinctive Archer. There are very good archers who use this aiming method and can hold their own on 3D target range and be great hunters too. Just go out and find out what works for you and your goals.


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## Gimli's Ghost (Jun 29, 2021)

Dartwick said:


> I have a brother with unusually good coordination and spatial awareness. Hes not a professional athlete or anything but he would be in the top 5 or so percent for anything from throwing a ball accurately to riding a motorcycle fast and smooth.
> Im average.


My eldest brother had this sort of ability.
I had it to some extent when younger and still have it to a lesser extent.
Unfortunately though I liked archery and owned a few bows over the years I seldom had the opportunity to practice.
I've loosed ten times as many arrows in the last six months as in my entire life before now.
Before this return to the bow I had no idea what I was doing but somehow managed to do it right so often I amazed myself at times. Now I must think about foot positioning and such when in the ol days I never had to give it a thought, just did it.

My shooting at 12 meters has got me far enough that I'll be steadily extending my range.

Due to health problems I'll be doing warm ups and wearing compression hose when shooting. I've identified the cause of the fliers that plagued my practice. Just before loosing an arrow I'd have a slight mental hick up with vision blanking out momentarily. A sign my chronically low blood pressure and dilated leg veins were allowing momentary interuptions in blood flow to the brain..
This condition causes many of us older guys to sometimes forget just why we stood up a bit too quickly. A problem I experience much too often these days. The compression hose help a lot. First time I'd read of this was in the 60's and they were using the lower half of an airfoce pilot's pressure suit to treat the worst of such conditions.
Coming full circle they are now using the fabric technology of compression hose to design fully flexible space suits that you can just squeeze into rather than the complicated pressurized hardshell spacesuits of today.


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## Broncman (Jul 14, 2020)

marcelxl said:


> Its a question I ask. 3 under? Close to the eye? holding at full draw? Instinctive? Even closing an eye?
> Just my observations with people I see out there swearing they are things like "purely instinctive". Whatever, it does not offend me I just don't think some people are very honest with themselves.
> 
> For the record, I think waaaaay too much gets made of "instinctive archery" by "instinctive archers" and I find it very curious how an aiming method defines you and your shooting and then get bent out of shape when questioned.
> ...


I have almost always shot 3 under. But I anchor similar to split finger. I do not do the eye or high cheekbone thing. My thumb web fits in the corner of my jawbone.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Broncman, the videos I posted above are with Rick Welch. He is an IBO Champ, Instinctive Archer, shooting 3under. In the videos he explains why 3 under and his shooting and aiming process. You should watch it, like any archer who wants to try Instinctive and get info from a guy who put his wallet where his mouth was. Because he is shooting heavy bows, his unorthodox movement of the hand after release is not hindering the result.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

Broncman said:


> So you can't be instinctive 3 under??


I would not want to argue, but let me ask a related question. Can you string walk and still shoot instinctively? If you put a sight on the bow, can you still shoot instinctively?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Camperjim, how you place the fingers on the string doesn’t say about your aiming method. If I use my thumb, I aim or not?
Or another example: Howard Hill was shooting fluid and split finger. Was he an aimer or not?


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## Bill_in_TR (Aug 1, 2014)

marcelxl said:


> Its a question I ask. 3 under? Close to the eye? holding at full draw? Instinctive? Even closing an eye?
> Just my observations with people I see out there swearing they are things like "purely instinctive". Whatever, it does not offend me I just don't think some people are very honest with themselves.
> 
> For the record, I think waaaaay too much gets made of "instinctive archery" by "instinctive archers" and I find it very curious how an aiming method defines you and your shooting and then get bent out of shape when questioned.
> ...


I have to agree wholeheartedly with your comments here. This whole "instinctive" issue has been a controversy for ages. I have always wondered at some of the comments and questions at shoots when people watch someone shoot and jump to conclusions about what they are doing.

What you said about holding at full draw is typical. How do you know what someone else is doing in their eyes and head based on timing their hold?

These questions are why I don't like the term instinctive. Too much religion involved. Just as there can be too much religion involved in other aspects of aiming.

I wouldn't even want to categorize how I aim most of the time. I only know that I don't use any conscious effort to evaluate the location of my arrow point in relation to my target. I shoot split finger with my middle finger at the corner of my mouth. Sometimes the arrow is gone as soon as I hit anchor. Sometimes there is a slight hold. What am I doing when I hold? Nothing I could describe. Just getting a comfortable feeling.

I have tried three under. I have tried consciously trying to estimate a gap. I have tried walking the string for changing yardages. I didn't shoot significantly more accurately any of those ways. The only significant improvement is when I get out my Olympic recurve with sights and stabilizer.

But my own particular enjoyment of archery comes from just informally walking around my shooting area and watching my arrows fly at my targets or roving the woods behind our property and destroying mushrooms. Do I also do more rigidly structured practice focusing on form and accuracy? Sure. But my primary aiming method is as described above.

And I may be wrong but I believe a high percentage of average archers are similar to me.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Bill_in_TR said:


> I have to agree wholeheartedly with your comments here. This whole "instinctive" issue has been a controversy for ages. I have always wondered at some of the comments and questions at shoots when people watch someone shoot and jump to conclusions about what they are doing.
> 
> What you said about holding at full draw is typical. How do you know what someone else is doing in their eyes and head based on timing their hold?
> 
> ...


Thats just it....

You spend a weekend doing a clinic with Rod Jenkins and theres maybe 10 minutes on aiming and then its just simple ballistics after hours of form tweaks. You see in a straight line, arrows arc and you hold on your target relative to the arc. Thats it. How its processed is where the conjecture is IMO. 
My point was/is that when theres 3under, high anchors and holding along with claims about "not seeing the arrow" then I'm calling BS.

I think it comes down to gap vs instinctive, you have to be one or the other, so theres self pigeon holing because that's what we do these days, because the modern human is an idiot and loves to be pointlessly divided (see the news and social media) and just like in life, theres more that connects us than divides. But here we are........and thats as prophetic as I get! 

But aiming is thorny yet in the forefront of minds from people getting into this. I have a system, its done me very well and I've used it at the highest levels of what I do and mixed it with the very best so I'm OK with it. I'll say one thing, I can't "hard gap" for the life in me in practice. I do it at home as part of my game and know my gaps but marrying yards to inches on a target is too much for my simple brain in the thick of it. In 3D I 100% rely on my sight picture right up closing in on my POD. Indoors, barebow has been tweaked for an 18m POD and my "instinctive" bow is a simple point of aim thing. Neither gapping or "instinctive" (I don't think) Not left or right, not religious, not militant about anything, its easier this way.


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## ShootStraight4 (May 11, 2020)

To me shooting instinctive is about becoming one with the bow and experiencing the highs of hitting inside the ten rings on 3D shoots. 

That is in fact my personal definition of shooting instinctive, all in one concise sentence.

I used to shoot a compound back in my early 20s and I was able to shoot a nickel at any moment at 40 yards. Shooting a perfect 330 indoor was not unusual. Everything became so automatic, dull and uneventful so much so that every 3D I went to with my buddies instead became a showcase for whoever could outspend everyone else on the next gadgets for the bows, the binos, range finders, hip quivers and whatnots.

Switching to instinctive trad changed all that. I don't look at scores like I used to in my previous life and yet I appreciate more each and every moment I fling my arrow while watching the beautiful arch it creates. The slower the arrow the longer the rewarding moment can be enjoyed in real-time. The highs (of hitting 10s) come and go. That makes the next one ever so sweeter than the last. The whole experience makes me yearn more to be outside shooting with my trad buddies. See y'all at the next etar!


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## ShootStraight4 (May 11, 2020)

Shooting instinctive in the basement at 18 yards. Btw in case anyone's interested that's a homemade target with a five dollars DIMPA bag from IKEA.


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## The Machanic (9 mo ago)

So, I just got back into shooting after being out for 15ish years. Started in late summer with my compound and quickly found myself wanting a recurve, which I shot for years as a kid. Found a nice recurve in Feb. And starting in April I have been shooting around 100 arrows a day. I had some instructor coaching right after I got the bow to work on my form. Some will say quality over quantity. I shoot until I don't want to shoot. One day is at 20yds the next day 30yds, then 10yds, then maybe a mix. I have noticed over the past week, my groups are tightening up in shots 30 to 60. i.e. 7 out of ten arrows on a 9" paper plate at 20 yds.. What works best for me is to aim at the dime sized black circle I draw on the plate. Aim small, shoot small. The other thing that helps is to empty my mind as I come to my anchor, then think of a hot plate of spaghetti and meat balls, smile and release. Mac and cheese works too if you don't like spaghetti. 
The biggest challenge is to analyze your "self talk". 95% of the work needs to happen with the 3lb mush between the ears. Muscles will do what they are told. But all the junk in the brain box gums up the works.
Nock, Look at the tiny spot and don't take your eyes off until the arrow lands, Draw, Anchor, Relax and Smile at the steaming spaghetti, Relax your hand, Follow through until the arrow lands. Then forget about that shot, totally. There is nothing you can do about it. 
Do not ever be upset with any shot. There is something to be learned from every shot. Do not waste that learning opportunity by being upset. 
And when the shot comes that surprises you, hits the mark or even makes you smile, Thank it. "It" made the shot. Your subconscious made the shot. You will know this because you were thinking of nothing and everything felt right. The arrow flew true to the spot and you want to do that again. That's how you know " It" made the shot once you got out of the way. But you can't force it, try as you may.
There is more to instinct shooting than just launching arrows. Practice encompasses a lot of stuff.


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## Terrible Ted (Aug 4, 2014)

Well I am terrible Now. When I was a kid I hunted rabbit squirrels with a long bow on dads farm. I was successful at it until I started chasing girls as a teen. I can still pick up a recurve and hit a target at 20 yards about an 8 inch circle. The compound is just better for my hunting and it has sights.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Yeah Ted we know. It isn't as easy. But it dang sure is more rewarding. 

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## 1old buck (Jun 23, 2018)

Yep, a lot of guys revert back to training wheels on their bows. My older brother won't go back to recurves over his wheelie bow.
Said it takes too much dedication.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

1old buck said:


> Yep, a lot of guys revert back to training wheels on their bows. My older brother won't go back to recurves over his wheelie bow.
> Said it takes too much dedication.


I think you really have to like shooting recurves a whole lot to shoot as often as you need to to stay proficient. I look forward to shooting most days.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

100%

Now ask how precise it can be. 


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## Rreader47 (5 mo ago)

I hit 7-8” groups at 20 yards, but I know I’m not that good and still learning to get consistent with form.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

MontanaMarine said:


> That is kind of my point. Real world, cold start, backyard archer action.
> 
> I'm sure many backyard archers do far better.
> 
> Sometimes it comes together, sometimes not so much. Either way, I'm enjoying it, and striving to improve.


That's what it's all about IMO. One needs to enjoy the process, the journey of improvement. It's not all about something so mechanical as scoring for everyone.

I shoot instinctive and definitely aim. If I didn't aim I couldn't hit anything. This is commonly referred to as 'instinctive gap' - just focusing on a spot and letting my bow arm rise to where it needs to, point a blur in my periphery. Years of this and I yearn only to improve. The days I group well, when I am in the zone enough to just look at something and put an arrow on it - up hill or down with no care as to the distance - I damn well get high. Few things are better.

But to do this very well and with seamless consistency is hard, very hard. In reality it's a long process of both form work and developing a steely self-confidence, little different from the path of the master dartsman, golfer, shotgunner, basketballer or baseball pitcher. IMO in archery shooting instinctive very well demonstrates true mastery of not just the stick and string but of the self. It's the Art side of archery that goes back millennia. This is why in some cultures it's considered both a martial art and a meditative practice.

System shooters often assume we so-called instinctive shooters haven't discovered 20thC Western aiming systems yet. But that's not the case. Many system shooters are switching to instinctive gap, split vision, etc. I can string walk and conscious gap just fine but just found myself to not be interested in it. I don't want to think in metric or imperial when out in the woods with my bow, to abstract numbers over the landscape and calculate. I do numbers all day in my technical day job.

System shooting is very powerful. String walking is surprisingly accurate and will generally always beat an instinctive shooter _at known distances_. But it is slow and wholly dependent on knowing yardage. There's a reason you see so many system shooting trad archers with laser range finders. Without them all they have is their intuition for distance, and so little different from the traditional/instinctive aimer.

For the instinctive aimer, the arc of the arrow is their measure.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

I do not see why an archer must chose a technique to shoot with. Granted I am mostly a target archer now but have hunted in the past. Personally I use every technique available to me to hit the the correct spot at whatever I am shooting at, be it marked or unmarked distances or live animals. In my thoughts, if you have a point on distance or a distance that you know that if you put the point on the spot and know that is where the arrow will hit, you are using an aiming technique of some sorts. You know if you are further away you must shoot higher to hit the target if you are closer you must shoot lower. How you see it is just a matter of choice. When I am shooting unmarked or hunting I have a pretty good idea of the distance to the mark and what my gap and sight picture should look like. I don't make my final decision until the sight picture looks exactly right at full draw. I am sure there is a name for this method somewhere, it just works for me. on the other hand when shooting a tournament with marked yardages I use everything I can to hit the spot. I know my point on exactly, I know my gaps in the riser window for every distance closer than my point on. I shoot an elevated rest so I know what every little protrusion on the rest and button is in distance. For the very long shots from 65 to 80 yards I use the front and back shelf as references and gap off of them for the odd yardages. I even have little techniques for shooting those ultra close targets at some tournaments. Shooting 3/8 inch spots at very close distances ( 2 to 7 yards) and hitting them every time is really tough believe it or not, but if you figure it out it is easy points. Give it a try and play around with them. There is no exact way to shoot for everyone. So learn every method for shooting that you can and master them, they will come in handy somewhere in you archery adventures.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

ShootStraight4 said:


> Shooting instinctive in the basement at 18 yards. Btw in case anyone's interested that's a homemade target with a five dollars DIMPA bag from IKEA.
> 
> View attachment 7585119


That's one helluva basement. 

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## OleWaffleFoot (5 mo ago)

Back when I spent an absolute ton of time shooting instinctive, I also spent a ton of time "poor boy bowfishing". Taped a hand reel to my Pearson Hunter and arrowed anything from crabs to garfish from bridges or lake edges. I went 2/2 on headshots on water moccasins as they swam under a 10ft or so high bridge, and could pluck a crab off of an underwater rock without hitting the rock. I was outright deadly with fish arrow or regular arrows out to 15 or so yards. beyond that, things usually fell apart. 

That said, I'm no longer a friendless 16 year old with days full of nothing but time to shoot. So, as i step back into this game, i'll be trying to learn some form of gap shooting. It just seems easier.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

Don't recall if I replied to this earlier, but I think in a nutshell: the more accurate you become, the less "instinctive" you are. (Whether you like/know it or not.)

Viper1 out.


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