# Psycho-triggers used by stringwalker’s



## limbwalker

Psycho is a great way to describe any barebow shooter.  

My trigger has always been sight picture. When it's right, that arrow is gone. But then I came up shooting barebow insinctively, and that's a tough habit to break after 20+ years.


----------



## JimDE

I’m sure it is..... I started with a longbow in the early 60’s but being a firearms shooter first I always had to use a reference whether gaps or something to reference to point of aim. The Psycho-trigger is more like assuring the correct and uniform “load” is obtained for the desired distance to target. Even though changing crawls distances will change the effective length of arrow drawn from button to nock the actual length of draw from anchor point to button will be the same regardless of crawl. 

If we could use a clicker stringwalking it would actually cause the archer to pull inconsistent draw weights off the fingers to get the arrow through the clicker at various amounts of crawl. In order to obtain a somewhat consistent OTF poundage we need some sort of trigger when we have reached this point. Though this somewhat consistent OTF would still not cause the exactly same arrow speed because the lower one crawls the shorter amount of arrow rests between the button and the nocksets when the string is released causing a decreased amount of time pressure is applied to the back of the arrow. Some how ideally we need a trigger that is useable to balance this relationship along the extent of the crawl. With all the variances involved with stringwalking, actual length of arrow drawn, and upr to lwr limb power applied balance it’s amazing we can actually hit a 10 ring consistently   Kind of like the theory that there is always half the distance to any point from any point and you can never actually contact another point... 

Anyway we know we can close distance and grab another object 1/2 the distance availability or not. We know that guys like JD3 have found a way to obtain predictable applied arrow force to predictably hit his desired targets at various distances. My guess is JD3 is using the string as a psycho trigger with his nose but this is a guess... one could cut their arrows to at full draw when back tension is obtained the back of the point contacts the rest but that would mean drawing further at some crawls than others. I am guessing most are using the string contacting a point as their triggers


----------



## cpnhgnlngct

I am currently running a grip sear to trigger my shots. I ran feather to nose for indoor this past season.

We have a few psycho trigger how to videos we filmed with Joel Turner on our YouTube channel - The Push Archery.

I am fond of the grip sear as it allows me to run my full range of long crawls with the trigger.

WA you can’t drill and tap the riser for a milar washer grip sear like I run on my hunting bows, but the front edge of my gillos were made for a grip sear it seams. The radius is perfect for the finger nail to pop off it.

My 27” gillo i am popping off the edge of he aluminum. I had to do some very light buffing of the paint to get the right slickness. My 23” gillo I am popping of the edge of the wooden grip. I plan to drill and tap the gillo 23” for a washer since it will be a hunting bow. In both cases I am popping with my middle finger. I used to run my ring finger but find i have better control of the increase in pressure with my middle.


----------



## cpnhgnlngct

In this pic, you can see my ring finger running through the sear increasing pressure on the aluminum edge of the riser. I am just watching my tip float and focusing on increasing the pressure on my ring finger. When the finger nail pops, the shot breaks. This is a very difficult trigger to run, as your whole world needs to be that finger. If you start thinking about the aim or “why won’t this pop” the shot goes to hell real fast. Episode 33 of our podcast, The Push - A Traditional Archery Podcast, we dive deep into grip sears with Joel.










This pic is an example of one of my hunting bows sporting a very nice and easy to press through washer sear.


----------



## 10X Archer

I am no barebow shooter, but if you wanted to have a "clicker" without a piece of equipment, couldn't one simply count to 2 or 3 seconds in their head as they expand and then shoot once they reach their number?

apologies if this is a dumb suggestion


----------



## yegon

X10 the point of the trigger is to be a surprise for the archer when it goes off - a 3 coming after a 2 is not a surprise so you are expecting it and you brace for impact

Matt why is the washer not allowed in WA? I dont see anything in the rules that would forbid it. I am using a limb mounted clicker glued in front of my grip and never had any problem getting through equipment checks


----------



## JimDE

Matt I am guessing the grip sear works for those who get back extension by pushing and pulling and not pulling through only to get back tension. I am very old school and we always got our back tension by a continuous draw through the clicker with the bow are rock steady ( no push)


----------



## yegon

JimDE said:


> Matt I am guessing the grip seat works for those who get back extension by pushing and pulling and not pulling through only to get back tension. I am very old school and we always got our back tension by a continuous draw through the clicker with the bow are rock steady ( no push)


pressing the nail of your ring finger into the sear is an independent movement, why would it matter whether you are pushing your bowhand or not?


----------



## JimDE

I have been racking my mind trying to think of a way while stringwalking to obtain a drawcheck trigger of some sort that would be a equal amount of thrust over a similar arrow distance traveled while the arrow was exiting the bow but I just see no way to do that.


----------



## Mr. Roboto

I have been trying Joel's Grip Sear method. But right now I think it is more of a crutch, at least for me. No offense Joel, its a brilliant method. My biggest issue is more target panic. When I first started using the sear, it worked great, the mental process went away from anticipating the shot. But the more I got used to using it, the more the target panic returned. It started to shift from panicking on the arrow tip, to anticipating the finger nail click. Old bad habits don't go away. I have found working on the fundamental source of target panic is where the real work is needed. The holding methods that Gary McCain and Ben Rogers has been a great help to me. Once the target panic started to get better, I was able to focus more on the release and getting consistent anchor. The less the target panic I had, the better I have been getting on the release and consistent anchor. As that got better, the groups got better, and my confidence has gotten better, which then helps with improving the circle.


----------



## JimDE

Yegon, it would not matter if it was a conscience non-draw related act.... I guess I was assuming wrong that it was somehow draw related movement that triggered it. 

I shoot high wrist and knuckles out at a 45 degree angle to the grip with only the web and thumb in contact with the grip. My fingers sit outside the grip during the draw in a relaxed state and bow release with a finger, wrist, or bow sling stopping the bow from flying out of my hand and to the ground.


----------



## Demmer3

Mr. Roboto said:


> I have been trying Joel's Grip Sear method. But right now I think it is more of a crutch, at least for me. No offense Joel, its a brilliant method. My biggest issue is more target panic. When I first started using the sear, it worked great, the mental process went away from anticipating the shot. But the more I got used to using it, the more the target panic returned. It started to shift from panicking on the arrow tip, to anticipating the finger nail click. Old bad habits don't go away. I have found working on the fundamental source of target panic is where the real work is needed. The holding methods that Gary McCain and Ben Rogers has been a great help to me. Once the target panic started to get better, I was able to focus more on the release and getting consistent anchor. The less the target panic I had, the better I have been getting on the release and consistent anchor. As that got better, the groups got better, and my confidence has gotten better, which then helps with improving the circle.


I know a few that had the same situation happen as you. In fact, I have one friend that is probably on his 150th grip sear. He refuses to address and fix the problem. He wants a band-aid. Every sear he tried has worked, but only briefly, then on to the next one. Fix the issue at hand and solve the problem. Mind over matter. People need more mental coaching and training than what the get now. Most are probably getting nothing in that department. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## waxyjaywalker

I've been shooting oly recurve for years and never came across the concept of sears. This thread is very educational. 

Dumb question: Are the various sears legal in competition barebow?


----------



## yegon

for me the grip sear was just the starting point, when I started using it it just moved the target panic from the sight picture to the fingernail. I had to go through a process of blankbaling and then shooting heaps of arrows from 10 meters - 15 meters and so on until I got to 40m and was able to execute the grip sear every time. This took several months and I am finding out that I did not give it enough time yet. My target panic is prone to return especially when I practice less and then get under pressure. I realized that I am not really putting my attention on the finger that presses the sear - I let that one run subconsciously and still focus on aiming - so I will get back to it and work it out.

The advantage that I see in using the grip sear is that it keeps my execution in check for a longer time. I am able to hold on target for as long as I want to and execute hundreds of shots this way. If I let myself go and shoot a couple of shots without going through the sear I am usually lost for the whole tournament and by the last arrow I am drivebyshooting terribly. It might be that I will be able to shoot without the trigger for a longer period without getting messed up once I master the concentration - but for now the sear does a great job.

and yeah JimDE - the grip sear is not draw length related, it just helps prevent preignition movements because you dont know when the shot will go off and it helps to move on cleanly from aiming to execution so that you can get on target and stay there without releasing the arrow immediately.


----------



## yegon

waxyjaywalker said:


> I've been shooting oly recurve for years and never came across the concept of sears. This thread is very educational.
> 
> Dumb question: Are the various sears legal in competition barebow?


I never had problems with them in competition, nobody had any issues with it in IFAA barebow at the European championships, for WA I only shot locally but I dont see anything in the rules that would make it illegal

this is my sear (based on one I have seen here in the forum)


----------



## Rylando

Seems like a far too complicated solution to an easily fixable problem. If it's due to TP issues, I recommend moonlighting with an Oly recurve clicker, helped me out. I've yet to find one of these snake oil "fixes" for TP last or even work for very long. Certainly more beneficial to just bite the bullet and address your TP. Other than that my "psycho trigger" is aiming. Expand push/pull, lollipop the yellow, kapow there goes the arrow.


----------



## Jason W.

yegon said:


> I never had problems with them in competition, nobody had any issues with it in IFAA barebow at the European championships, for WA I only shot locally but I dont see anything in the rules that would make it illegal
> 
> this is my sear (based on one I have seen here in the forum)
> 
> View attachment 6488555


For IFAA clickers are allowed in Barebow Recurve. In WA they are not. If your setup made it through WA inspection it's only because someone wasn't familiar with the rules. That sometimes happens at local levels, mostly because judges just don't deal with Barebow enough to know these things. It's really no fault of theirs.


----------



## Lipi

I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree with your statement, Jason W.
This sear does not serve as a draw length check, and as such it can't be considered to be a "clicker". In fact, in 2015 the WA technical committee ruled the tab sear (the same device sugested by Joel Turner, only placed on your tab, and therefore used by your draw hand) legal: https://extranet.worldarchery.org/d...4_Art22.1.8_22.3.8_22.4.7_22.5.7_Tab_sear.pdf. (Of course, it's possible the committee didn't understad the function of the sear - or a "thumb rest extension" as they call it, but since this ruling is called "tab sear" in the folder with all the rulings on WA web page, I don't suppose that's the case.)


----------



## yegon

WA Barebow is actually bigger than WA compound in my country and the judges seem to be competent. I just dont see a rule in the rulebook that would forbid it, it is not a stabilizer or a draw check and the bow gets through the 12cm ring with it


----------



## j.conner

Agreed, a grip sear would be OK for WA barebow. I have seen a few limb-mounted clickety-clicks trying to sneak through, left over from an NFAA shoot. Note too that, at least here, equipment check is not mandatory - it is customary and a good idea to guard against a complaint and disqualification. It is the archer's responsibility to comply with the equipment rules.


----------



## JimDE

I have not gone through a WA bow check as of yet and the barebow recurve rules do tend to have some grey area’s to say the least that force more in-depth determinations like bow slings and attaching them comes to mind that a ruling had to be done to clarify this. That said the rules allow a rest, plunger, limbsaver type device, and weights to be attached to a bow. Now to me that means these items and any explicit items like the attachment of a sling through a ruling clarification document are all inclusive and attaching anything else to a barebow hence not allowed because it is attached and unspecified specifically in the rules.....

I am saying this not that I would say a thing if I was beaten by someone using something like this only to highlight that attaching anything is a grey area in their rules other than those things specified.


----------



## Jason W.

Lipi said:


> I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree with your statement, Jason W.
> This sear does not serve as a draw length check, and as such it can't be considered to be a "clicker". In fact, in 2015 the WA technical committee ruled the tab sear (the same device sugested by Joel Turner, only placed on your tab, and therefore used by your draw hand) legal: https://extranet.worldarchery.org/d...4_Art22.1.8_22.3.8_22.4.7_22.5.7_Tab_sear.pdf. (Of course, it's possible the committee didn't understad the function of the sear - or a "thumb rest extension" as they call it, but since this ruling is called "tab sear" in the folder with all the rulings on WA web page, I don't suppose that's the case.)


I suspect the only reason the tab sear was legalized is because the person submitting the request lied about what it was by calling it a "thumb rest."


----------



## Demmer3

Jason W. said:


> I suspect the only reason the tab sear was legalized is because the person submitting the request lied about what it was by calling it a "thumb rest."


They are also quoting something that was put on a tab and now claiming that it is ok on the riser. I agree with you Jason. Someone lied as to what it is used for or just clearly mislabled it to be used as another definition. They claimed it at first to be called a pinky rest on the tab, which many tabs have that already, but for some reason called it a tab sear. Others are calling it what they want to call it. They are using it as a "grip sear" and not calling it for what it is a "finger clicker". A typical clicker serves two purposes. One is to trigger an automatic release and the other is to assure same consistent drawl length. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## yegon

JimDE said:


> I have not gone through a WA bow check as of yet and the barebow recurve rules do tend to have some grey area’s to say the least that force more in-depth determinations like bow slings and attaching them comes to mind that a ruling had to be done to clarify this. That said the rules allow a rest, plunger, limbsaver type device, and weights to be attached to a bow. Now to me that means these items and any explicit items like the attachment of a sling through a ruling clarification document are all inclusive and attaching anything else to a barebow hence not allowed because it is attached and unspecified specifically in the rules.....
> 
> I am saying this not that I would say a thing if I was beaten by someone using something like this only to highlight that attaching anything is a grey area in their rules other than those things specified.


so you mean my clicker extension and the golden cover for the weight holes are also risky?


----------



## JimDE

I would say no because they are part of the original bow as sold... now putting either on a bow not outfitted with these and installing a DYO version could be ... just by definition of WA allowed barebow attachments. 

As I said there is lots of grey area going on with WA ... that dampener that South African riser uses or its mounting surface in the sight window is a grey area manufactured in the riser. I look at rules like they are verbatim if something is specified it is allowed if not? Grey area! Technically the cover and clicker plate could be a issue unless they classify the cover and clicker plate as a weight.... just saying if not specified there can be disputes. Ridiculous as this could be...


----------



## yegon

Demmer3 said:


> Someone lied as to what it is used for or just clearly mislabled it to be used as another definition. They claimed it at first to be called a pinky rest on the tab, which many tabs have that already, but for some reason called it a tab sear.


I think equipment rules have to be done in a way that the legality of something is universal - not based on the fact that someone is using it one way and someone else a different way. You can use any metal plate on a tab as a thumb sear and it is not possible to police if you are doing it or not. That means a tab sear should be universally legal.


----------



## yegon

JimDE said:


> I would say no because they are part of the original bow as sold... now putting either on a bow not outfitted with these and installing a DYO version could be ... just by definition of WA allowed barebow attachments.
> 
> As I said there is lots of grey area going on with WA ... that dampener that South African riser uses or its mounting surface in the sight window is a grey area manufactured in the riser. I look at rules like they are verbatim if something is specified it is allowed if not? Grey area! Technically the cover and clicker plate could be a issue unless they classify the cover and clicker plate as a weight.... just saying if not specified there can be disputes. Ridiculous as this could be...


you are also allowed to shoot a bow that you manufactured yourself - you could have used the gillo riser and the clicker as material for your own riser where the clicker is an original part of it

btw equipment inspection is mandatory at all our tournaments and even though I passed them all without a problem I will ask our association to put up a request for clarification to world archery just to be sure


----------



## Jason W.

yegon said:


> I think equipment rules have to be done in a way that the legality of something is universal - not based on the fact that someone is using it one way and someone else a different way. You can use any metal plate on a tab as a thumb sear and it is not possible to police if you are doing it or not. That means a tab sear should be universally legal.


I agree with your point, but the fact that it's actual use was lied about in order to get it approved speaks volumes.


----------



## Demmer3

yegon said:


> I think equipment rules have to be done in a way that the legality of something is universal - not based on the fact that someone is using it one way and someone else a different way. You can use any metal plate on a tab as a thumb sear and it is not possible to police if you are doing it or not. That means a tab sear should be universally legal.


The original writing is for a pinky rest on the tab. The problem with rules is always the people. The people will always try to circumvent things and twist things to their benefit. That's how things get judged. People file an interpretation, and they base the ruling on the right up. Then people see this and try to manipulate things. There will never be a perfect write-up on any class that has restrictions because people will always find a way to work around rules that were originally designed to explain things clearly. The person who filed the interpretation called someting a sear when it was obvious the wrong term used. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## JimDE

I agree with JD3 ... as long as there are rules there will be people trying to circumvent the rules for their benefit.... sadly its human nature and it goes for anything that has rules (Governments, sports, Religious documents, you name it if it has a written rule someone is trying to circumvent it to their advantage)


A governing body cannot cover every facet of every possible variant of any rule they initiate.... so they are in a constant flux of creating supplements to these rules to cover whatever distinction is currently in conflict. I think in Barebow they had a vision of what they want to equipment to be and should be but it's participants want it to evolve further..... 

Me? I am a "rules guy".... I read, ask for clarification if there is a question, and then follow the rules to the best of my ability. That said it is not my way to point fingers or protest something I notice that could be outside the rules (unless there is a possibility of person or property damage involved..) for the sake of a win or loss at a shoot? I am too old and have done this too long to care about such things.


----------



## Demmer3

Jason W. said:


> I agree with your point, but the fact that it's actual use was lied about in order to get it approved speaks volumes.


I wish I can like this. Haha

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## yegon

"tab with a small metal thumb rest extension"

where is the lie?


----------



## Demmer3

A


yegon said:


> "tab with a small metal thumb rest extension"
> 
> where is the lie?


A rest extension.... We seriously have to put up an argument that this is a lie for those using it as a finger clicker????? Finger clicker is not using this as a "rest" as brought up to interpretation. Let's get real Yegon. Lol

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason W.

yegon said:


> "tab with a small metal thumb rest extension"
> 
> where is the lie?


So you think its purpose it to give someone a place to rest their thumb?


----------



## cpnhgnlngct

The explanation as it stands in Barebow at the WA level, coming from a very high level committee member is that you can not ban an action but you can ban a device.

Device being the subjective word. A screw plus washer assembly on the front of your riser to help aid in a more clean sear pop is currently being interpreted as a device, and the safest route is not to attach anything for the sole purpose of running a sear to your bow or tab.

However, you can not ban the action of a person pressing their finger against a feature on their bow (edge of riser or tab) until it pops, triggering their shot. That is a simple action and part of the shot sequence for that particular archer.

Modification of a riser or grip or tab by polishing the edges to create a smoother surface to press against is also being considered legal, and again, there is no device involved or added to the equation.


----------



## yegon

I dont know guys, officials should be able to rule if something is legal without explanation. That statement describes the tab perfectly, yes it ommits how the user plans to use it but i still dont see a difference to any other metal plate tab out there. Or are you telling me that this tab should be illegal and an AAE tab that you can do exactly the same thing with should be legal?

Matt do you think 3d printing a grip with an extension to place a fingernail on and be used as a sear would be ok? I presume this extension could be made of a more flexible material than the rest of the grip given for example jaeger grips use 2 different materials in their rubber padded grips and (i hope) they are 100% legal.


----------



## yegon

I have much more trouble explaining the legality of my yost tab than the clicker btw and some people at the 3d shoots still look at me like i was cheating.


----------



## Demmer3

yegon said:


> I have much more trouble explaining the legality of my yost tab than the clicker btw and some people at the 3d shoots still look at me like i was cheating.


How? They made a ruling specifically with this tab. No grey area at all. There is also an official ruling on a Bateman tab a couple years ago. Same effect. Hahaha. You even admitted it to being a clicker. Lol

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## yegon

I mostly had trouble in HDH IAA 3d tournies with the tab, there is not much WA 3d here. And yes it is a clicker, why would I not admit it. It is not used as a draw check and according to the rules draw checks are forbidden, not clickers that are used for something else.


----------



## Rylando

Sure seems like someone needs to learn to shoot better instead of finding a handicap like a tab sear but that might be a little harsh  Use whatever advantages you can get. 

All I can find online about a tab sear is a metal.. prong? lookin' thing on a video by "SHOTIQ". Maybe I missed something, but is it legal under WA BB? or is it illegal? Maybe I'm missing something. Inner judge is wanting to know what to look out for.


----------



## Stephen Morley

Don't need one, feel enough in control of my shot sequence.

If someone has TP and needs one, I have no issues them using one, TP is a horrible curse and wouldn't wish it on anyone.


----------



## j.conner

yegon said:


> I have much more trouble explaining the legality of my yost tab than the clicker btw and some people at the 3d shoots still look at me like i was cheating.


Just print the technical ruling and bring it with you. It is just one page, fold it up and keep it in your quiver.


----------



## j.conner

yegon said:


> I mostly had trouble in HDH IAA 3d tournies with the tab, there is not much WA 3d here. And yes it is a clicker, why would I not admit it. It is not used as a draw check and according to the rules draw checks are forbidden, not clickers that are used for something else.


I agree. A grip sear is not a draw check - a draw check is disallowed in the barebow equipment class. A draw check maintains or indicates a consistent draw length. 

The WA equipment rules also follow a pattern. For compound, everything is allowed and is only disallowed if specifically mentioned in the rules. For recurve, allowed items are listed and disallowed if not listed. Barebow is in its own section in the Field Archery rules.

As a judge, the rules must be applied evenly - only what is written, no speculation or extrapolation of intent.

Personally, I do not see the benefit of a grip sear and would not tempt a judge to call it out during equipment inspection as a piece of equipment that was added to the bow and/or have it contested by an opponent who hears it.


----------



## tomazj

Hello everyone. 

I have just joined ArcheryTalk to revive this thread since it is very relevant to my question. I am a new barebow shooter, I started shooting (at the very tender age of 50 :wink right about the time when this thread was started in May 2018. At that time I was of course blissfully unaware of the dreadful TP. I realized I had a problem about 5 months ago and I have been trying to get my shooting process under control ever since. Joel Turner's little booklet was quite a revelation, it helped to some extent after the first reading; I managed to convince myself to mentally separate the phases of aiming&holding from releasing the arrow, and voila, suddenly I was able to bring the arrow to the gold again and even hold it there! 

My TP is of course far from gone (some days are better than others) and it is beginning to take the fun out of archery for me. And I really like shooting the bow, I have just treated myself to a more serious bow and the gear. I think it's about time I tackle the problem systematically. I am considering Joel Turner's online course. I like his approach, it mostly makes perfect sense to me. The only detail I currently have a problem with are his "psycho triggers", especially those that require to add a clicker or modify the gear by adding a grip or tab sear (and some psycho triggers are not applicable to my stile of archery at all). I understand the purpose of these triggers, but it sounds counter-intuitive and "unnatural" to me to use clickers on a barebow, especially those that require an additional action/movement to activate (with a finger of the string or the bow hand for the tab or the grip sear respectively). I really really don't like the idea of such additional "gadgetry".

My question is basically the same as that of the OP: is there anything else that can be used successfully as a "psycho trigger" for barebow shooting? Preferably something more "natural" and less "artificial" the above mentioned prongs (sears), something that results from correct form and/or execution of the pre-shot process? Can the level of the back tension during the expanding phase of the shot serve the purpose?


----------



## Esplod

I don't think the level of back tension can be used, as it can be anticipated. The main point with Joel Turner's use of triggers is that it has to be impossible to anticipate when they go off.


----------



## Cuckoo2381

limbwalker said:


> Psycho is a great way to describe any barebow shooter.
> 
> My trigger has always been sight picture. When it's right, that arrow is gone. But then I came up shooting barebow insinctively, and that's a tough habit to break after 20+ years.


 Same here. I move arrow up towards bullseye and once it’s there I release, no wasting time.


----------



## lees

Cuckoo2381 said:


> Same here. I move arrow up towards bullseye and once it’s there I release, no wasting time.


On compound, we call that "drive-by" shooting, but, hey, it works for those guys, kind of, so..... 

As for the use of grip sears, I've had some preliminary success with it shooting my olympic rig barebow. I finally concluded I couldn't make a clicker work after 30 years of trying and quit flat out. But with the grip sear technique I recently found I can make that work. Nice surprise release every time when the finger "goes off" (long as I maintain tension and direction, etc).

So since I can't get rid of my recurve gear, I'm going to take up barebow with it and use the grip sear. Otherwise it's just worthless junk in the parts box, so may as well.

I've been followed Jake Kaminski's channel and that's where I learned about it. He has switched to barebow and has been using it to externally time the release. I have the same form of target panic that he does, so my ears perked up when he described how he's using the grip sear.

He has a few videos about it, such as this one:






lee.


----------



## limbwalker

lees said:


> On compound, we call that "drive-by" shooting, but, hey, it works for those guys, kind of, so.....
> 
> As for the use of grip sears, I've had some preliminary success with it shooting my olympic rig barebow. I finally concluded I couldn't make a clicker work after 30 years of trying and quit flat out. But with the grip sear technique I recently found I can make that work. Nice surprise release every time when the finger "goes off" (long as I maintain tension and direction, etc).
> 
> So since I can't get rid of my recurve gear, I'm going to take up barebow with it and use the grip sear. Otherwise it's just worthless junk in the parts box, so may as well.
> 
> I've been followed Jake Kaminski's channel and that's where I learned about it. He has switched to barebow and has been using it to externally time the release. I have the same form of target panic that he does, so my ears perked up when he described how he's using the grip sear.
> 
> He has a few videos about it, such as this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lee.


Good stuff Lee. I wasn't aware that Jake was using a grip sear. I'm pretty sure he and I have the same type of TP (which is why I am shooting OR these days, because it's more enjoyable for me). I'll have to take a closer look at this. I still have a barebow rig ready to go.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> Good stuff Lee. I wasn't aware that Jake was using a grip sear. I'm pretty sure he and I have the same type of TP (which is why I am shooting OR these days, because it's more enjoyable for me). I'll have to take a closer look at this. I still have a barebow rig ready to go.


Well as you know, I quit OR in desperation a few months ago, but in that time I also haven't been successful in fully rekindling an interest in compound. I still have my equipment for both but I just can't get the compound to climb into the truck with me when I tell it I'm going to the range. I even attempted to upgrade some of my compound equipment recently, but it hasn't worked. It still sits on the stand more than I actually shoot it.

I don't know yet why the clicker doesn't work - it may be related to my hearing which has been damaged by years as a semi-pro musician in my youth. Another strong possibility is I'm able to anticipate the clicker somehow, by some mechanism I've just never discovered or that I'm not physically able to work around.

But I dragged out my W&W CXT the day I discovered this video from JK (I've followed his channel from its start) and tried it for giggles. I just used the gap between the grip and the handle with the index finger and it shockingly worked "out of the box".

I think it's the unmistakeable indication of the finger physically popping that does it, over the audible trigger of the clicker. And I never was able to get a clicker to give me enough tactile feel to learn to feel it instead of hear it.

Anyway, it's the same mental game as the increase in pressure I use on compound. It's just a steady increase in pressure of the fingernail against the gap on the grip. If I do it correctly, the finger goes off at an adequately hidden timing with no intermediate alerts, and I use that to cut it loose.

It's quite stunning in how well it works. It's not a gimmick at all - it's a true method of externally timing the release (so you don't have to) so it directly works on TP afflicted shooters like myself and JK.

So I've gone barebow now on recurve, just gap shooting with 2-under on my Win&Win. Not strangely, I shoot tighter groups that way than I ever did with a clicker and a sight, simply because I can actually execute a shot this way.

The grip and the sear itself is a separate setup and skill set that I have to work on, but so far it's pretty promising.

lee.


----------



## woof156

I don't understand all the problems with TP-- I just listen to the little voices in my head that say "now.... release... let it go... now damm it.... for cryin out loud let it go...dumbkoff... RELEASE YOU IDIOT... SHOOT" oh for crying out loud start over..."


----------



## limbwalker

woof156 said:


> I don't understand all the problems with TP-- I just listen to the little voices in my head that say "now.... release... let it go... now damm it.... for cryin out loud let it go...dumbkoff... RELEASE YOU IDIOT... SHOOT" oh for crying out loud start over..."


My voices say "release! Release! RELEASE!" before my arrow is even close to the gold. LOL

The product of snap-shooting caused by starting out with a 65# hunting recurve when I was 18, I guess.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> My voices say "release! Release! RELEASE!" before my arrow is even close to the gold. LOL
> 
> The product of snap-shooting caused by starting out with a 65# hunting recurve when I was 18, I guess.


Not meaning to necessarily turn this in a weary TP thread, but that's one of the things that's interesting in JK's video. He reports that every, or virtually every, barebow shooter he has coached has some form of target panic symptoms. That's not surprising, since they're all timing the shot if they're not utilizing some method of external shot timing like the grip sear or other. But it did perk up my ears to hear that from someone at JK's level of authority in our sport.

JK also talks about the possibility of having fit a grip sear technique into the various BB rules. Particularly if you modify your grip to help accommodate a grip sear technique. I've done this on my W&W with the ol Dremel tool and I would have to do it to the grip on my Hoyt handle, so that would be something I'd eventually run into if I continued with BB.

JK's assertion is that while you can outlaw modifications and accessories, you can't outlaw movements and actions, like the grip sear. But still an interesting dilemma if one chooses something like the grip sear route to put TP into remission...

lee.


----------



## woof156

limbwalker said:


> Psycho is a great way to describe any barebow shooter.
> 
> My trigger has always been sight picture. When it's right, that arrow is gone. But then I came up shooting barebow insinctively, and that's a tough habit to break after 20+ years.


For me as a barebow shooter, in deference to my earlier post, I tend more often to snap shoot- often a drive by. When the little voice/sight picture says shoot I often do- even before I am fully aimed and settled. I think not having a sight per say leads to confusing messages in my brain as to whether I am aimed or not. Also I tend to do this even more as I get tired.. I am a bit better lately as I repeat the shot cycle mantra of draw, anchor, align, then aim, aim aim then release before each shot. If I force myself to mentally go through it in steps it helps.


----------



## limbwalker

Just signed up for the TX Senior games in the barebow division. Let the fun begin (again!). LOL


----------



## Draven Olary

tomazj said:


> My question is basically the same as that of the OP: is there anything else that can be used successfully as a "psycho trigger" for barebow shooting? Preferably something more "natural" and less "artificial" the above mentioned prongs (sears), something that results from correct form and/or execution of the pre-shot process? Can the level of the back tension during the expanding phase of the shot serve the purpose?


Yes.
1. Time your shot with a breathing pattern
2. Hold your thumb on the string hand in a way that is touching any of the finger tips holding the string lightly - if you can touch your middle finger tip is ideal. Activate the release by a sensation of thumb movement.

Both methods are actually "riding" the back tension - without it, they fail.


----------



## cheeney

I have been following Jake's videos about grip sear as well. I have been working on the technique each night and it is becoming better and better each time. It does really take some time and effort to perfect it. Like other comments made already, I just rush my shot too quickly without some technique like this to focus on. I find if I don't keep good strong tension, I get a bad collapse or pluck on the release. The grip makes all the difference in the world. I switched to an R Core grip recently and it has a much better edge to click off of than the stock grip on my bow. For my wooden longbow, I use feather to nose as my technique to focus on.


----------



## Draven Olary

Esplod said:


> I don't think the level of back tension can be used, as it can be anticipated. The main point with Joel Turner's use of triggers is that it has to be impossible to anticipate when they go off.


The back tension can't be anticipated if the archer is taught movement and sensation due to the movement. Joel Turner introduced an extra movement to patch something never learnt by the archer before getting TP. IMO the problem with the archers who got the TP is that they never spent the time to get to the level of awareness of their body during the execution that allows them to feel what a good or bad shot means disregarding the result in the target. When you know what a good shot feels like and you are capable to execute it over and over your brain is governing very strong pathways and you don't need palliatives.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> The back tension can't be anticipated if the archer is taught movement and sensation due to the movement. Joel Turner introduced an extra movement to patch something never learnt by the archer before getting TP. IMO the problem with the archers who got the TP is that they never spent the time to get to the level of awareness of their body during the execution that allows them to feel what a good or bad shot means disregarding the result in the target. When you know what a good shot feels like and you are capable to execute it over and over your brain is governing very strong pathways and you don't need palliatives.


D.O., you shoot barebow competitively?


----------



## Draven Olary

I shoot barebow good enough to know what I am saying. You got your TP shooting (bare)bow by yourself?
PS Jake Kaminski got the TP shooting by himself a compound when he was young. Everybody talks about the importance of a Coach or education in the training but it is dismissed when this lack of education was the one who inflicted the TP in first place.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> I shoot barebow good enough to know what I am saying. You got your TP shooting (bare)bow by yourself?
> PS Jake Kaminski got the TP shooting by himself a compound when he was young. Everybody talks about the importance of a Coach or education in the training but it is dismissed when this lack of education was the one who inflicted the TP in first place.


So not competitively then.


----------



## Draven Olary

It's Covid lockdown here, so I've got the "don't go to shooting indoor for three weeks" message. The last competition indoor was in 2020 and I missed it due to personal life - archery is not the single thing I do. Actually the single competitions allowed by the Canada archery were 3D in august 2021 and there were very few people. 
Do you have something to contradict in what I've said or we go the personal path?


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> The back tension can't be anticipated if the archer is taught movement and sensation due to the movement. Joel Turner introduced an extra movement to patch something never learnt by the archer before getting TP. IMO the problem with the archers who got the TP is that they never spent the time to get to the level of awareness of their body during the execution that allows them to feel what a good or bad shot means disregarding the result in the target. When you know what a good shot feels like and you are capable to execute it over and over your brain is governing very strong pathways and you don't need palliatives.


An external/hidden means of timing the release is not a palliative treatment for TP. I've written about this extensively elsewhere, but the underlying cause of TP is a simple shot execution method that's inappropriate for certain shooters. On compound, we call it "command-shooting" or the pejorative "punching the trigger", AkA the shooter timing the shot. Michael Braden uses the term "controlling the release"; Randy Ullmer referred to it as "the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing", another slightly looser, but on-point description of it. Accordingly the correct treatment for TP is some form of the surprise release, of which the grip sear is one.

The grip sear is another method of achieving an external timing of the instant of the release, much in the way the clicker does it, or how we "trick" a release aid into doing it for us on compound. The idea is that it's a "primary" action that replaces the previous primary action of command-shooting. The shooter instead controls the action of slow increase in pressure of the finger against the sear. The "secondary" action is the (externally timed) release by the shooter, but this time prompted as a simple trained response to the finger flicking off the sear at an instant unknown to the shooter.

The key is the precision of the shooter's knowledge of the timing of the release. If you "don't know when" the release is going to happen better than a certain level of precision, you can't anticipate it. If you can't anticipate the release, you can't preemptively react to it before the shot happens (which display as the symptoms of target panic). That's why this method works.

This also explains why the "sight-picture looks right" method - the "drive by" as its known on compound - is unreliable. The problem is the information it gives the shooter about the timing of arrival at the right sight picture is frequently too precise. Sometimes you can "fool" yourself and land on it "by surprise", but all too often your control over the arrival at the correct sight picture is too high quality and well-timed. In those cases you're able to anticipate that moment, and your body's natural defense mechanisms are alerted in the familiar way of TP....

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

It is a palliative since it is used to correct something because the "normal" way didn't work . It's not curing since you take it out and the symptoms are back.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> It's Covid lockdown here, so I've got the "don't go to shooting indoor for three weeks" message. The last competition indoor was in 2020 and I missed it due to personal life - archery is not the single thing I do. Actually the single competitions allowed by the Canada archery were 3D in august 2021 and there were very few people.
> Do you have something to contradict in what I've said or we go the personal path?


I've just seen my share of experts who talk about TP in barebow but have never seriously competed in barebow for any length of time. That's all.

It's common knowledge in the competitive barebow community that you either have it, or you'll get it, and then you'll do what you can to manage it. But if you haven't seriously competed in barebow for any length of time, you would have no way to know that. Generally, the guys/gals who haven't experienced TP in barebow have only "dabbled" and never really tried to win a big event. But as with most things, I'm sure there are a few very fortunate exceptions. Either that, or they just haven't got it yet. LOL

Not going the "personal route." Just speaking from quite a bit of experience here, as would anyone who spent years seriously competing in barebow.

The other thing us long-time competitive barebow archers see all the time are guys who shoot compound or recurve thinking they actually know a lot about barebow. You see it all the time here on AT, actually. I mean, how hard could it be right? 

Another pattern I've observed here on AT are folks from Canada who comment (sometimes a LOT) on barebow threads, but then who either put down barebow as a serious discipline, or eventually admit there isn't much of a competitive pool of barebow archers in Canada.

There is a reason I don't post comments on compound target archery threads, for example.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> I shoot barebow good enough to know what I am saying. You got your TP shooting (bare)bow by yourself?
> PS Jake Kaminski got the TP shooting by himself a compound when he was young. Everybody talks about the importance of a Coach or education in the training but it is dismissed when this lack of education was the one who inflicted the TP in first place.


No, Jake Kaminski was able to shoot Olympic style to his level because he had a means of external shot timing available to him - the clicker. That's part of why the clicker was invented - not merely as a draw-check device, but it also offers a version of the "surprise release". A means of relieving the shooter of the task of timing the instant of the release. Many OR shooters report difficulty shooting the OR without the clicker (Rick McKinney is one, I believe) for this reason...

lee.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> It is a palliative since it is used to correct something because the "normal" way didn't work .


The "normal" way you're referring to is the shooter timing the shot him/herself. Why and how that often (but not always) manifests as the set of symptoms we call TP has a natural explanation, which I've outlined elsewhere.


> It's not curing since you take it out and the symptoms are back.


The body's natural defense mechanisms have no "cure". They can only be worked around by not alerting them in the first place, which the surprise shot does.

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

lees said:


> No, Jake Kaminski was able to shoot Olympic style to his level because he had a means of external shot timing available to him - the clicker. That's part of why the clicker was invented - not merely as a draw-check device, but it also offers a version of the "surprise release". A means of relieving the shooter of the task of timing the instant of the release. Many OR shooters report difficulty shooting the OR without the clicker (Rick McKinney is one, I believe) for this reason...
> 
> lee.


In 2003, the clicker completely changed the course of target archery for me. I give Larry Skinner credit for talking me into trying one after watching me struggle with TP while shooting NFAA trad.


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> It's common knowledge in the competitive barebow community that you either have it, or you'll get it, and then you'll do what you can to manage it. But if you haven't seriously competed in barebow for any length of time, you would have no way to know that.


This is the issue. This is common knowledge for someone who learnt archery by himself. Can you have the symptoms in a stressful situation? Yes, especially when you want to shoot a score better than you actually can. BUT if you are aware of all these and you were educated to always go back to the basics where "basics" are things you need to do, you have 0 chances to actually get the TP.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> This is the issue. This is common knowledge for someone who learnt archery by himself. Can you have the symptoms in a stressful situation? Yes, especially when you want to shoot a score better than you actually can. BUT if you are aware of all these and you were educated to always go back to the basics where "basics" are things you need to do you have very little chances to actually get the TP.


Easy enough to write on a message forum I guess.

Where the rubber meets the road is in years of serious barebow competition. So, without that in one's resume, what they say must be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> In 2003, the clicker completely changed the course of target archery for me. I give Larry Skinner credit for talking me into trying one after watching me struggle with TP while shooting NFAA trad.


Actually... my first acquaintance with a non-symptomatic shot was on olympic recurve. I started on compound and was immediately afflicted with "drive-by" TP. But a few years later I took Frank Thomas' intro to archery when I was working on my BA at TAMU in the late 80s. Long story short I got hold of my first Oly rig which was fitted with a clicker off the bat.
I distinctly remember being able to draw *and hold on target, even with full intention of shooting, *literally the first time I drew it back, because I knew I wasn't in control of the release timing. The clicker was.

I ultimately have failed at the OR, but the concept of using the clicker I've carried to the rest of my shooting ever since.

I'm semi-officially a barebow shooter now, I guess..... So I'm using the grip sear to the same effect on BB....

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> No, Jake Kaminski was able to shoot Olympic style to his level because he had a means of external shot timing available to him - the clicker. That's part of why the clicker was invented - not merely as a draw-check device, but it also offers a version of the "surprise release". A means of relieving the shooter of the task of timing the instant of the release. Many OR shooters report difficulty shooting the OR without the clicker (Rick McKinney is one, I believe) for this reason...
> 
> lee.


The clicker was invented by an archer with TP who was incapable to get at full draw in 60s if I am remembering right for the field archery. The way it moved to the OR and how it is used was dependant by the Coach who was teaching.


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> Easy enough to write on a message forum I guess.
> 
> Where the rubber meets the road is in years of serious barebow competition. So, without that in one's resume, what they say must be taken with a grain of salt.


I think a new archer has to know that are two options, not just "don't fight the inevitable" because "this is what all barebow shooters get in the end".
PS You are saying you are teaching barebow. Are you teaching them to use a sear or psycho-trigger?


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> I think a new archer has to know that are two options, not just "don't fight the inevitable" because "this is what all barebow shooters get in the end".


In theory, I would agree with you. And there are certainly things one can do to hold TP at bay. Some are more successful at this than others and it may well have to do with what you're describing - getting proper instruction from the get-go. I think those who were taught correctly from the beginning probably have a better chance of keeping TP at bay, but then I've taught a lot of BB shooters, including several field word champions, and I only know one who doesn't struggle with TP on a routine basis. But I have a theory for that as well although I won't share it here.


----------



## Draven Olary

I agree with what you are saying there. I have my theory and its roots are found in psychological field and beyond the archery training - you can't change personality traits easy.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

I just don't get it... I shoot OR with a clicker, I know when my form is right exactly when it's going to go off... I tried the grip thing, took about five shots and Knew when it would go off... In compound, any release I pick up for the first time I learn it's timing and know when it should go off in about an end... Only two conditions where I experience a "surprise" release: one is when I have two identical releases in my pouch set at different speeds, and second when I use the Carter tension release [on which the safety won't disengage if you are pulling harder than the trigger weight] and I set it light enough the safety won[t disengage until I come off the back wall slightly into the valley where the safety and the release lets go... Really hard for me to time the Carter when used like this... 

BTW- Never had "target panic" as it is often described on 
AT. Sure, I might have an end where I flub my execution, but never this "OMG I can't shoot" panic... 

So, what am I doing wrong? Why can't I develop TP? And, while I have a completely different definition of a "surprise" release under which I bet nearly no one actually experiences, why can't I shoot the "surprise" as all the ATers define it? 

I'll admit, it took a few sessions of switching back and forth between using and not using the clicker to stop flinching my release hand when I took the clicker off; took maybe [MAYBE] a dozen shots to stop that; don't think it was anxiety or bracing for the shot, really believe it was a reaction to trying to let go before the click and not wanting to shoot through the clicker... Now is that target panic or just not switching the mindset quick enough and not wanting to tear up my gear? Is that "don't break your chiclets" panic? 

Back to the question... What am I doing wrong that the clicker, the grip thingy, flicking my thumb nail on my tab shelf, or popping the air bubble with my tongue aren't "surprise" releases?


----------



## lees

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> I just don't get it... I shoot OR with a clicker, I know when my form is right exactly when it's going to go off... I tried the grip thing, took about five shots and Knew when it would go off... In compound, any release I pick up for the first time I learn it's timing and know when it should go off in about an end... Only two conditions where I experience a "surprise" release: one is when I have two identical releases in my pouch set at different speeds, and second when I use the Carter tension release [on which the safety won't disengage if you are pulling harder than the trigger weight] and I set it light enough the safety won[t disengage until I come off the back wall slightly into the valley where the safety and the release lets go... Really hard for me to time the Carter when used like this...
> 
> BTW- Never had "target panic" as it is often described on
> AT. Sure, I might have an end where I flub my execution, but never this "OMG I can't shoot" panic...
> 
> So, what am I doing wrong? Why can't I develop TP? And, while I have a completely different definition of a "surprise" release under which I bet nearly no one actually experiences, why can't I shoot the "surprise" as all the ATers define it?
> 
> I'll admit, it took a few sessions of switching back and forth between using and not using the clicker to stop flinching my release hand when I took the clicker off; took maybe [MAYBE] a dozen shots to stop that; don't think it was anxiety or bracing for the shot, really believe it was a reaction to trying to let go before the click and not wanting to shoot through the clicker... Now is that target panic or just not switching the mindset quick enough and not wanting to tear up my gear? Is that "don't break your chiclets" panic?
> 
> Back to the question... What am I doing wrong that the clicker, the grip thingy, flicking my thumb nail on my tab shelf, or popping the air bubble with my tongue aren't "surprise" releases?


I think you and I had already covered this in other threads. The answer to your question, is of course, clear once one understands the true underlying cause of TP. Which, again, we've already ruined other threads over, , so I'll let the other guys take their whacks at it if they want to..... 

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> The answer to your question, is of course, clear once one understands the true underlying cause of TP.


What's the true underlying cause of TP? I am interested to hear.


----------



## Hikari

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Why can't I develop TP?


Target panic is not a foregone conclusion in the sport. In a 2021 Bow International interview, Lina Bjorklund, arguably one of the world's top barebow shooters, claims she never had target panic. She has been shooting competitively since 2009. I don't think there is any prevalence data, although I am sure it is common. 

Do you want to develop TP?


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> What's the true underlying cause of TP? I am interested to hear.


The instinctive, self-defense reaction of the mind/body to an incoming insult whose timing it can anticipate. It's the result of command-shooting, where the archer's shot process involves precisely timing the instant of the release. Because of that, the shooter is aware of the precise timing of that instant. And, in fact, to a high enough level of precision to alert the body's natural defense mechanisms. Which, accordingly, results in the familiar "flinch" avoidance or protection response.

It's a little bit like our autonomic flinch response when something is thrown at our face, or when we can otherwise sense something about to hit us, etc.

That's the gist of it.

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

Hikari said:


> Target panic is not a foregone conclusion in the sport. In a 2021 Bow International interview, Lina Bjorklund, arguably one of the world's top barebow shooters, claims she never had target panic. She has been shooting competitively since 2009. I don't think there is any prevalence data, although I am sure it is common.
> 
> Do you want to develop TP?


experienced, truly competitive (and not just casual) barebow shooters with no form of target panic are like unicorns. Understand I said "no form" of target panic.


----------



## limbwalker

lees said:


> The instinctive, self-defense reaction of the mind/body to an incoming insult whose timing it can anticipate. It's the result of command-shooting, where the archer's shot process involves precisely timing the instant of the release. Because of that, the shooter is aware of the precise timing of that instant. And, in fact, to a high enough level of precision to alert the body's natural defense mechanisms. Which, accordingly, results in the familiar "flinch" avoidance or protection response.
> 
> It's a little bit like our autonomic flinch response when something is thrown at our face, or when we can otherwise sense something about to hit us, etc.
> 
> That's the gist of it.
> 
> lee.


I get what you're saying although I'm sure there are much more sophisticated ways to say it (enter D.O. here).

Now that I've committed to shooting barebow for our spring TX Senior Games, I'm going to rededicate myself to barebow, if even only for just this event. I really do miss carrying that much less crap to an event.


----------



## Draven Olary

Iees, we are first and foremost visual animals - our entire working system relies on visual input. Before the shot happened, we were looking at something. The "incoming insult/self defence reaction" is recognised by the brain "as bad" when the expected result is not there - we get a lot of chemicals in our system and if we don't allow the brain to learn through errors he will "protect" us and we are on the way to TP . Otherwise the body reaction to an action is not an issue since our body is always in motion when executing things. Due to this I don't think Joel is pointing the root - he points starting from the result.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> I get what you're saying although I'm sure there are much more sophisticated ways to say it (enter D.O. here).
> 
> Now that I've committed to shooting barebow for our spring TX Senior Games, I'm going to rededicate myself to barebow, if even only for just this event. I really do miss carrying that much less crap to an event.


True, but the complicated/convoluted explanations usually just boil down to "timing the shot" if they're on the right track to begin with. I have the equivalent of a Phd. and 20+ years post-doc experience in target panic and making crappy shots, which is how I came to know this horrible affliction in so much intimate detail....

As for me, everything around here is just 3D and hunting. I'm struggling to find any spot-shooting in the B/CS area. If there were an indoor league of some sort, I'd be in hog heaven. I'm just not that interested in 3D....

lee.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> Iees, we are first and foremost visual animals - our entire working system relies on visual input. Before the shot happened, we were looking at something. The "incoming insult/self defence reaction" is recognised by the brain "as bad" when the expected result is not there. Otherwise the body reaction to an action is not an issue since our body is always in motion when executing things.


With all due respect, I don't see how this is an analysis or explanation of target panic. Or how it suggests a concrete set of steps a shooter can take to treat it, and measure their progress, etc...

lee.


----------



## Hikari

limbwalker said:


> experienced, truly competitive (and not just casual) barebow shooters with no form of target panic are like unicorns. Understand I said "no form" of target panic.


I have no doubt target panic is common in top performing archers. I certainly don't dispute your experience. I also have no reason to dispute Lina--an exceptional archer and one I found out has MS. I suspect target panic is a combination of nature and nurture. With any population, there are deviations and outliers. Unfortunately, there is little research on this. Since Kelly is visually impaired and target panic seems to be connected with aiming, perhaps he is less susceptible to TP?


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> With all due respect, I don't see how this is an analysis or explanation of target panic. Or how it suggests a concrete set of steps a shooter can take to treat it, and measure their progress, etc...
> 
> lee.


Do you agree that we have innate the capacity to visually follow an object and there is a relation between what we want, what we see and how we achieve this through motion?
If yes, here is my take on this TP subject for sight shooters using the arrow:
When the arrow is used as reference, the proximity of it and it's movement becomes a priority for some shooters - it's something we have in us and some are not told how to manage this movement in proximity. Chasing the point of the arrow is one of the symptoms of TP. You try to chase it and get bad result you get frustrated and at one moment in time the brain will protect you from this frustration. How this frustration is stopped to happen? The brain and central nervous system is not firing the neurons that will activate the muscles or will use other "short-cutting" paths.


----------



## lees

Hikari said:


> I have no doubt target panic is common in top performing archers. I certainly don't dispute your experience. I also have no reason to dispute Lina--an exceptional archer and one I found out has MS. I suspect target panic is a combination of nature and nurture. With any population, there are deviations and outliers. Unfortunately, there is little research on this. Since Kelly is visually impaired and target panic seems to be connected with aiming, perhaps he is less susceptible to TP?


Well, that's the punchline, actually, an observation Kelley has made in other threads too, BTW. While it's virtually universally true that TP sufferers command-shoot/time the release, the reverse is not true in general. Meaning, there are many shooters who can command-shoot with little to no target panic. Or if they do suffer from it, it's manageable, or it comes and goes, etc.

This lends more support to the idea that TP is based in the body's natural defense mechanisms - a natural explanation is that there's variation in the shooting population in terms of how well they can suppress or resist the body's natural instincts. Some can completely ignore it, some kinda sorta can and can manage it, and probably many shades in between. And then there are the more extreme cases, like myself, who are overwhelmed by them and are essentially crippled from command-shooting by them.

The #3 top compound shooter in the world right now, for example, is a hard "puncher". He puts it in the middle and just thwacks that trigger like its an old disobedient hound dog. It's freaky to watch.

On BB, you got guys like John Demmer III, who practically shoots compound freestyle scores. He probably isn't significantly bothered by anticipation issues either.

They're not the only ones....

lee.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> Do you agree that we have innate the capacity to visually follow an object and there is a relation between what we want, what we see and how we achieve this through motion?


I don't even know what this means, much less is there a visible connection to target panic.


> If yes, here is my take on this TP subject for sight shooters using the arrow:
> When the arrow is used as reference, the proximity of it and it's movement becomes a priority for some shooters - it's something we have in us and some are not told how to manage this movement in proximity. Chasing the point of the arrow is one of the symptoms of TP. You try to chase it and get bad result you get frustrated and at one moment in time the brain will protect you from this frustration.


Describe the TP treatment that follows from whatever this is. It should have discrete, achievable steps, based in a concrete definition of the problem, and progress should be measurable upon completion of each step. Then, cite any cases where TP was successfully treated via this method.

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

If don't even know what this means, there is no reason to further talk.
TP treatment is as good as the person is ready to really change his behaviour. You know how many people are ready to put the work into this? Not many. The older you are the harder will be to change something.
The treatment if the issue is caught soon by the Coach is to change the archer's behaviour by working with him in what to do. Once it is settled there is no treatment for TP, there are just additional tools that can make you keep it in check.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

Hikari said:


> Target panic is not a foregone conclusion in the sport. In a 2021 Bow International interview, Lina Bjorklund, arguably one of the world's top barebow shooters, claims she never had target panic. She has been shooting competitively since 2009. I don't think there is any prevalence data, although I am sure it is common.
> 
> Do you want to develop TP?



I just feel left out... Thread after thread, post after post, I just don't feel like I'm a real archer until I have target panic.


----------



## limbwalker

This discussion is all but proof that nobody really knows enough about TP. Two experienced, intelligent archers can't even agree on what it is or the cause of it.


"TheBlindArcher" said:


> I just feel left out... Thread after thread, post after post, I just don't feel like I'm a real archer until I have target panic.


Believe me, you're not missing anything. LOL


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> If don't even know what this means, there is no reason to further talk.
> TP treatment is as good as the person is ready to really change his behaviour.
> You know how many people are ready to put the work into this? Not many. The older you are the harder will be to change something.
> The treatment if the issue is caught soon by the Coach is to change the archer's behaviour by working with him in what to do. Once it is settled there is no treatment for TP, there are just additional tools that can make you keep it in check.


None of this is what I asked for, though. No definition from you on exactly what TP is, and what your actual, concrete procedure is for a shooter to "really change his behavior" is still just as mysterious as what you think TP really is.

All of which leads me to believe you don't really know what TP is, and therefore you have no idea how to effectively treat it.

lee.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> This discussion is all but proof that nobody really knows enough about TP. Two experienced, intelligent archers can't even agree on what it is or the cause of it.
> 
> Believe me, you're not missing anything. LOL


Heh. Just because some don't know what TP is, doesn't mean nobody knows what it is. Some do and it's actually been known for a surprisingly long time, even over on compound. Kelley's definitely one of the lucky ones. I envy shooters who haven't had to deal with it, and he's proof positive that there are good/great/exceptional shooters that don't have it...

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> None of this is what I asked for, though. No definition from you on exactly what TP is, and what your actual, concrete procedure is for a shooter to "really change his behavior" is still just as mysterious as what you think TP really is.
> 
> All of which leads me to believe you don't really know what TP is, and therefore you have no idea how to effectively treat it.
> 
> lee.



You want a definition based on PhD in target panic or a definition based on psychology and neuroscience? Because on the later TP is a self inflected damage of the neural motor pathways while doing a specific task due to various psychological traits.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> You want a definition based on PhD in target panic or a definition based on psychology and neuroscience?
> Because on the later TP is a self inflected damage of the motor pathways while doing a specific task due to various psychological traits.


How about the one with the treatment that actually works?

lee.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

lees said:


> Heh. Just because some don't know what TP is, doesn't mean nobody knows what it is. Some do and it's actually been known for a surprisingly long time, even over on compound. Kelley's definitely one of the lucky ones. I envy shooters who haven't had to deal with it, and he's proof positive that there are good/great/exceptional shooters that don't have it...
> 
> lee.



The problem with speaking in absolutes is that sometimes it's absolutely wrong. Yes, one form of target panic is anticipation and a response to impact, and it's natural to go there when that is your personal experience, we go to what we know, but it's not the only form nor is command punching the only cause. If impact anticipation were the sole cause, it would inflict "surprise" shooters as well; even if you had a 10 shot process timing, you know your release is supposed to go off sometime in the next 10sec, and your body would brace for that impact. [Surprise is, or always should be, in quotes because surprise shooters aren't actually shooting surprise shots, merely shots they aren't thinking directly about] Take some of Turner's examples as a weapons instructor- Students who score expert on the range and empty a clip missing the target in a real world situation; not impact anticipation but rather a change in the thought processes and the stimulus that initiates the shot... Or, target panic in it's acute form- an archer on their way to their first 300, or a 300/60X and blow it in the last end; not impact anticipation but a change in thought processes, often times from "execute the shot" to "execute the shot when the pin is dead on..." 

How about holding off the X, another situation often described as target panic, yes quite possibly an impact anticipation issue, but surprise shooters suffer from this as well as punchers, just to demonstrate the surprise release isn't the only answer/"cure" for target panic. The punch [also commonly defined as target panic] then comes from an open loop thought process, but the punch or command shot isn't the cause of the target panic but rather a result of it... 
[Credit Turner for applying Open and closed loop to firearms/archery; credit 30 years and over fifty texts on motor learning and exercise/sports psychology for being able to apply it so easily] 

Your theory is a good one, and you're well versed because of your experiences, but it's not the only way... More than one way to cook that potato... Don't let your experiences close you off to the other possibilities; there is no single definition, no single cause, and definitely no single fix.


----------



## lees

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> The problem with speaking in absolutes is that sometimes it's absolutely wrong. Yes, one form of target panic is anticipation and a response to impact, and it's natural to go there when that is your personal experience, we go to what we know, but it's not the only form nor is command punching the only cause. If impact anticipation were the sole cause, it would inflict "surprise" shooters as well; even if you had a 10 shot process timing, you know your release is supposed to go off sometime in the next 10sec, and your body would brace for that impact. [Surprise is, or always should be, in quotes because surprise shooters aren't actually shooting surprise shots, merely shots they aren't thinking directly about] Take some of Turner's examples as a weapons instructor- Students who score expert on the range and empty a clip missing the target in a real world situation; not impact anticipation but rather a change in the thought processes and the stimulus that initiates the shot... Or, target panic in it's acute form- an archer on their way to their first 300, or a 300/60X and blow it in the last end; not impact anticipation but a change in thought processes, often times from "execute the shot" to "execute the shot when the pin is dead on..."
> 
> How about holding off the X, another situation often described as target panic, yes quite possibly an impact anticipation issue, but surprise shooters suffer from this as well as punchers, just to demonstrate the surprise release isn't the only answer/"cure" for target panic. The punch [also commonly defined as target panic] then comes from an open loop thought process, but the punch or command shot isn't the cause of the target panic but rather a result of it...
> [Credit Turner for applying Open and closed loop to firearms/archery; credit 30 years and over fifty texts on motor learning and exercise/sports psychology for being able to apply it so easily]
> 
> Your theory is a good one, and you're well versed because of your experiences, but it's not the only way... More than one way to cook that potato... Don't let your experiences close you off to the other possibilities; there is no single definition, no single cause, and definitely no single fix.


Well, the problem with most "traditional" TP treatments is they fail the acid test: they don't actually work. Their actual effectiveness doesn't perform any better than random chance at the end of the day - the sufferers still suffer and they still cope and struggle with it, may months and dollars later, just like before at the end of it all.

That's not true of the surprise release. I don't know of another TP treatment with the "in the field" track record that it has. Agree, that doesn't mean there isn't an as-good or better alternative. But it's the only one I've ever seen, anyway, that offers full remission with no relapses. It also has other metrics in its favor such as a concrete natural explanation of the basis of TP, the treatment regime that follows from it is not secret/classified/password protected, it costs $0.00, is freely available to anyone, shooters can teach it to themselves if necessary, it has a concrete, followable procedure and it's performance for the shooter can be directly measured.

So, really, evaluating target panic proposals is a bottom-up process of simply looking at the track record of their treatments. If they don't work, that's a good reason to believe the analyses they're based on are faulty. If you so happen to end up at only one "absolute" solution by that process of elimination, well, it is what it is. 

Now, if someone can come up with another treatment that works as well as the surprise shot, I'm all ears. But so far, none has been presented.

lee.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

And I know "good/great/exceptional" wasn't aimed at the archer who couldn't hit the water shooting off the deck of the Titanic...  

But I think "I want Target Panic" needs to go in my sig line... What's everyone think? I could start a movement; perhaps sell caps and t-shirts. They could sell next to the "$h1t Happens" and "Have A Nice Day" Ts Maybe a fainting goat mascot? Holding a bow and aimed at a target with drool and massive fangs?


----------



## Draven Olary

You wa


lees said:


> How about the one with the treatment that actually works?
> 
> lee.


Once you have TP you will never be able to recover and be able to execute the same shot sequence at the level of "awareness" state required after intermediate level. There is a reason why some TP afflicted archers change hand or discipline and though learning a new shot process they are capable to overcome their previous TP.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> Once you have TP you will never be able to recover and be able to execute the same shot sequence at the level of "awareness" state required after intermediate level.


Nonsense. TP can be treated (as I described earlier) and once done, not only can the shooter shoot at the level they might have before, they can shoot a hell of a lot better. Even I'm living proof of that. That's just ridiculous.


> There is a reason why some TP afflicted archers change hand or discipline and though learning a new shot process they are capable to overcome their previous TP.


That's right. TP is ultimately a simple (tho not necessarily easy) training issue, as I described earlier. The treatment is to relearn ones shot process, replacing command-shooting with an appropriate form of the surprise release. Of course relearning your shot is necessary to treat TP....

lee.


----------



## lees

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> And I know "good/great/exceptional" wasn't aimed at the archer who couldn't hit the water shooting off the deck of the Titanic...
> 
> But I think "I want Target Panic" needs to go in my sig line... What's everyone think? I could start a movement; perhaps sell caps and t-shirts. They could sell next to the "$h1t Happens" and "Have A Nice Day" Ts Maybe a fainting goat mascot? Holding a bow and aimed at a target with drool and massive fangs?


You can have my TP. Give me your address and I'll send it right out to ya. It's huge and Hazmat, tho, so shipping is going to cost you... 

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> Nonsense. TP can be treated (as I described earlier) and once done, not only can the shooter shoot at the level they might have before, they can shoot a hell of a lot better. Even I'm living proof of that. That's just ridiculous.
> 
> That's right. TP is ultimately a simple training issue, as I described earlier. The treatment is to relearn ones shot process, replacing command-shooting with an appropriate form of the surprise release. Of course relearning your shot is necessary to treat TP....
> 
> lee.


You have a limited understanding then, since one time you agree and other time you disagree. Mild TP that is result of the lack of education and is a recent affliction can be treated by learning for the first time the process of the shot sequence. The TP that happened due to the personality traits like perfectionism, impulsivity, vulnerable to critics during the training process will never recover without hours on the psychologist' bench or changing totally the archery type.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> You have a limited understanding then, since one time you agree and other time you disagree.


Rather, when you've said something correct, I've agreed with it. When you've said something either mistaken or mysterious, I've disagreed with it.


> Mild TP that is result of the lack of education and is a recent affliction can be treated by learning for the first time the process of the shot sequence.


Describe that shot sequence - specifically describe in detail the part of it that *prevents* target panic. Describe *how you know* that part prevents TP.


> The TP that happened due to the personality traits like perfectionism, impulsivity, vulnerable to critics during the training process will never recover without hours on the psychologist' bench.


But even hours on the psychiatrist's bench are completely ineffective against TP - that's just a brute fact of archery. Take myself for example. I have exactly the same bad attitude, ADD, sensitivity to criticism and impulsivity today in TP remission as I had before. I haven't changed a bit, but I've still gotten free of TP. I didn't spend a dime on therapy.

And other examples of similar attitude problems that have worked their way out of TP and now shoot fine with no problems are available anywhere you care to look.

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

Arrow goes where you want because of your execution - this should be enough for archer's mind to process before executing the shot.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> You wa
> 
> 
> Once you have TP you will never be able to recover and be able to execute the same shot sequence at the level of "awareness" state required after intermediate level. There is a reason why some TP afflicted archers change hand or discipline and though learning a new shot process they are capable to overcome their previous TP.


I've actually considered doing this for BB archery, not only to see if I can work around my TP, but also because I have coached a lot of LH archers (including my wife and daughter) and think it would be cool to be able to demonstrate in LH-speak. 

Larry Skinner switched hands and didn't miss a beat. His shot looked just alike and he continued to win national championships in recurve.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> I've actually considered doing this for BB archery, not only to see if I can work around my TP, but also because I have coached a lot of LH archers (including my wife and daughter) and think it would be cool to be able to demonstrate in LH-speak.
> 
> Larry Skinner switched hands and didn't miss a beat. His shot looked just alike and he continued to win national championships in recurve.


For what it's worth, I tried lefty at one point too in my target panic career with a borrowed bow (compound). Of course, it had zero effect on my TP symptoms and actually made them worse. Now I was struggling with *both* my natural flinch response *and* totally unfamiliar muscle training/memory/non-dominant hand and eye, etc. It didn't work on TP because I was still command-shooting, which of course I didn't discover until many years later when I was introduced to the surprise shot. Just another form of symptomatic treatment, unfortunately....

Apart from that, hell, I can barely get an arrow onto the paper right-handed, so I haven't yet found a reason to make my crappy shooting crappier by switching hands... 

lee.


----------



## woof156

Am I correct that TP can be either; 1. the hesitancy to let the arrow go and/or 2.. snap shooting?? Does the first TP occur perhaps for fear of missing the BE?? If the second form is TP (snap shooting) it may have a number of causes including overbowed or form issues, so when the sight picture looks right quick let it fly.. As mentioned I have the second type but I have controlled it the best I can with a shot mantra and trying to settle the sight picture before I release. I do not shoot comptetively other than local leagues. One thing a clicker would do for me is to allow me to focus on the sight picture so I could be settled and ready when it clicked. i.e. get everything out of my mind except aiming- the rest would be muscle memory... Do any OR shooters continue to aim after clicker goes off before they release or is the clicker the absolute trigger? I have never seen anyone hesitate on youtube videos..


----------



## woof156

limbwalker said:


> Just signed up for the TX Senior games in the barebow division. Let the fun begin (again!). LOL


BTW good luck and have fun-- also to add remember the journey is the thing....well OK the score is kinda important but as an archery duffer I focus on the journey.


----------



## lees

woof156 said:


> Am I correct that TP can be either; 1. the hesitancy to let the arrow go and/or 2.. snap shooting??


Neither one. #1 is only a target panic symptom and #2 is a DIY attempt at achieving an externally timed release - that's a good thing, not bad. #1 just means you almost certainly have target panic, and #2 means you have a good intuition of what the problem is and you are on the right track towards finding a correct fix.


> Does the first TP occur perhaps for fear of missing the BE??


No. The cause of TP is a simple training issue that aggravates your body's natural defense mechanisms. It has no basis in any psychology or mental/emotion condition. Those conditions like anxiety about missing, etc., are only *symptoms *of TP, they are *not* the underlying cause.


> If the second form is TP (snap shooting) it may have a number of causes including overbowed or form issues, so when the sight picture looks right quick let it fly.. As mentioned I have the second type but I have controlled it the best I can with a shot mantra and trying to settle the sight picture before I release. I do not shoot comptetively other than local leagues. One thing a clicker would do for me is to allow me to focus on the sight picture so I could be settled and ready when it clicked. i.e. get everything out of my mind except aiming- the rest would be muscle memory... Do any OR shooters continue to aim after clicker goes off before they release or is the clicker the absolute trigger? I have never seen anyone hesitate on youtube videos..


Like I said, you're on the right track - you have the feeling that, if only I could "surprise myself" with some command of some type to release without me knowing "exactly when" it comes, and I didn't have to deliberately make that decision, I could overcome this damn jerk/yank/grab when I let go of the string....

A clicker would be the right medicine for achieving that. If you shoot BB, investigate the "grip sear". Both are proven methods of relief from having to time the release yourself.

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

woof156 said:


> Does the first TP occur perhaps for fear of missing the BE??


It depends on how you understand this. When you miss over and over you get frustrated and this frustration deploys chemicals in your system over and over . Our "protector" aka neural system will intervene if these episodes continue and don't change and will prevent the task to be finalised. TP it's psychological / emotion related first. Do this mean TP it is fear of missing? Not really.

PS There is no democracy in our body. Your senses tell you what's going on in the outside world, while your emotions exist inside your body to tell you what these events and circumstances mean to you. It is hard to really overcome TP when you don't change your mindset.


----------



## Skeptix_907

Draven Olary said:


> It's Covid lockdown here, so I've got the "don't go to shooting indoor for three weeks" message. The last competition indoor was in 2020 and I missed it due to personal life - archery is not the single thing I do. Actually the single competitions allowed by the Canada archery were 3D in august 2021 and there were very few people.
> Do you have something to contradict in what I've said or we go the personal path?


The reason he asked you whether you shot competitively is you really have no idea how strong target panic can be until you've shot at least at big state shoot or a national competition where your legs are shaking and your hands are covered in sweat. I'm sorry and I don't mean to get personal, but you really, truly have absolutely zero clue about target panic until you've shot under high pressure with an untriggered shot.

I've known guys who are 560+ consistently on a 60 arrow barebow in the range or at home, and they go to Vegas or Lancaster and don't even break 400.


----------



## Draven Olary

You really think you know what it is in his mind and in mine? And you don't have target panic? I am the single one in this topic associating TP to the emotional response as real cause of the TP. And if you have an emotional response preventing you to perform in a competition I give you a bad news: you have it in all other aspects of your life - it's maybe not that visible since many activities don't work with subtle movements but it is there when the heat is up. Archery just exposed it - it's not acquired due to archery, it is your usual YOU who brought you there because you did it your way. There is a reason why exist performance psychologists, coaches etc. They are there to teach you and help you not just with the mechanical aspect but to teach you a way of thinking too. Since vast majority of the barebow shooters are self-taught, the chances that vast majority of them to have different levels of TP is big. It is true that nobody can be in your head, so the major part of the work must be done by you.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> You really think you know what it is in his mind and in mine? And you don't have target panic? I am the single one in this topic associating the TP to the emotional response as real cause of the TP.


There's a good reason you're the only one making that association. It's the wrong association. That's why you're the only one making it. 

"mental" or "psychological" treatments for TP simply *do not work*. We who had been subjected to them are intimately aware of this, though most of us are afraid to buck this awful mythology surrounding TP and state that out loud. Except myself, of course, one who would like to bring TP sufferers out of this "mental problem" dungeon and into the light of TP relief.

The brute fact of TP is those weeks, months, years in front of the blank bale drawing & holding & letting down or shooting at 120cm targets at "safe distances" or "on the psychologists couch" or anxiety medication/treatment or in prayer/meditation/affirmation or whatever other "mental" treatments that have been tried out there, are just simply* ineffective*. They change *absolutely nothing i*n your shot for the better. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nichts. End of story.

That's all you need to look at to dissuade you from trying them any further. Instead, you have to look at the treatment that does actually work against TP (the surprise release via external timing of the shot) to really understand the true underlying cause of TP (a simple, but not easy, training issue that aggravates the body's natural defense mechanisms).

That's really the end of the story right there for the "mental problem" analysis of target panic. You just can't get there from here, so you have to go another way.

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

You have no idea what you are talking about. The first thing Joel Turner is advertising is "ironmind" - forcing the archers to have a specific mindset when shooting.
PS It would be interesting to know why Joel changed from grip sear to bubble in the mouth as timer for the shot. I have an idea, but I would like to hear the reasoning.


----------



## Hikari

lees said:


> "mental" or "psychological" treatments for TP simply *do not work*.


Well, blank bail is one mental/psychological treatment for TP and most agree it is useful. Your answer suggests you don't have a clear understanding of mental/psychological processes and techniques to address them. You seem to equate mental/psychological conditions to some type of Freudian psychology--Freud and his ideas, while important in the development of modern psychology, has not aged well and is no longer significant in modern psychology.

TP by its definition is a mental/psychological condition. At a basic level, perfectionism and social pressure to perform could easily explain why some archers get TP. That is personal to each archer in its manifestation or presentation. There is an underlying individual cause that is inherent in the individual that has nothing to do with archery, yet archery can be the driver in making it apparent. Combining the need for social recognition and the level of performance in competitive archery can be a strong influence in developing TP. Some people are going to be more susceptible to TP than others and some life experiences are going to change the risk of that. As studies on anxiety, depression and PTSD have shown, you are not just going to power your way through it.


----------



## limbwalker

Skeptix_907 said:


> The reason he asked you whether you shot competitively is you really have no idea how strong target panic can be until you've shot at least at big state shoot or a national competition where your legs are shaking and your hands are covered in sweat. I'm sorry and I don't mean to get personal, but you really, truly have absolutely zero clue about target panic until you've shot under high pressure with an untriggered shot.
> 
> I've known guys who are 560+ consistently on a 60 arrow barebow in the range or at home, and they go to Vegas or Lancaster and don't even break 400.


What you're describing is performance anxiety - which is probably more common than target panic - but not exactly the same thing. Performance anxiety can exacerbate a person's TP problem though.

If a person has target panic, they will have the same issues whether anyone is watching or not. 

If they only have those issues in big moments, then it's performance anxiety and the treatment for that is well documented.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> You really think you know what it is in his mind and in mine? And you don't have target panic? I am the single one in this topic associating TP to the emotional response as real cause of the TP. And if you have an emotional response preventing you to perform in a competition I give you a bad news: you have it in all other aspects of your life - it's maybe not that visible since many activities don't work with subtle movements but it is there when the heat is up. Archery just exposed it - it's not acquired due to archery, it is your usual YOU who brought you there because you did it your way. There is a reason why exist performance psychologists, coaches etc. They are there to teach you and help you not just with the mechanical aspect but to teach you a way of thinking too. Since vast majority of the barebow shooters are self-taught, the chances that vast majority of them to have different levels of TP is big. It is true that nobody can be in your head, so the major part of the work must be done by you.


"emotional response" probably isn't the best way to describe it IMO. Subconscious response maybe? I am not dealing with any emotions when I'm trying to shoot barebow at 50M in my yard by myself. And yet, there's my old friend TP. LOL


----------



## Draven Olary

It's complicated and the "subconsious" here is the umbrella for things that are happening in real time with our body without knowing. I used "emotional response" because at the molecular level we are acquiring a skill / behaviour because the brain and neural system gets the ques from the chemicals we release while doing that specific thing. And that's mainly emotional while learning that behaviour. Did you ever thought that when you are "emotionless" while shooting the barebow you are actually triggering the "old way" of doing things - which is flawed by the TP? Just for fun, try this: Instead shooting from the ground, use a truck tire and shoot standing on top of it. Shoot for a month before getting rid of the tire.


----------



## lees

Hikari said:


> Well, blank bail is one mental/psychological treatment for TP and most agree it is useful. Your answer suggests you don't have a clear understanding of mental/psychological processes and techniques to address them. You seem to equate mental/psychological conditions to some type of Freudian psychology--Freud and his ideas, while important in the development of modern psychology, has not aged well and is no longer significant in modern psychology.
> 
> TP by its definition is a mental/psychological condition. At a basic level, perfectionism and social pressure to perform could easily explain why some archers get TP. That is personal to each archer in its manifestation or presentation. There is an underlying individual cause that is inherent in the individual that has nothing to do with archery, yet archery can be the driver in making it apparent. Combining the need for social recognition and the level of performance in competitive archery can be a strong influence in developing TP. Some people are going to be more susceptible to TP than others and some life experiences are going to change the risk of that. As studies on anxiety, depression and PTSD have shown, you are not just going to power your way through it.


We just went through why that entire theory is confused, and why it leads to all the wrong conclusions and treatments, some of which you describe here. So I’ll just refer you back to the prior discussion, which contains the same responses I’d simply repeat here.

lee.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> "emotional response" probably isn't the best way to describe it IMO. Subconscious response maybe? I am not dealing with any emotions when I'm trying to shoot barebow at 50M in my yard by myself. And yet, there's my old friend TP. LOL


Exactly. And same here. I’m the same bad-attitude problem now in TP remission as I was when I was a sufferer. I can execute a shot now, but otherwise I haven’t changed a bit….. 

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> It's complicated and the "subconsious" here is the umbrella for things that are happening in real time with our body without knowing. I used "emotional response" because at the molecular level we are acquiring a skill / behaviour because the brain and neural system gets the ques from the chemicals we release while doing that specific thing. And that's mainly emotional while learning that behaviour. Did you ever thought that when you are "emotionless" while shooting the barebow you are actually triggering the "old way" of doing things - which is flawed by the TP? Just for fun, try this: Instead shooting from the ground, use a truck tire and shoot standing on top of it. Shoot for a month before getting rid of the tire.


I think you might be surprised to know all the positions I've shot a bow from.  15' up in a tree on a tiny platform isn't uncommon for me, since about 1979.

The "old way" of doing things for me is snap-shooting. It's very common among "traditional" bowhunters and it's the way I shot from about 18 to 35 years of age. Sight picture looks good and the arrow is gone without conscious thought. 

D.O. as much as I appreciate your input on this one, I'm afraid you may be coming at this from an academic perspective rather than that of a "practicing professional" so to speak. It's a common disconnect in many disciplines. Kinda like PhD biologists trying to tell people how to manage their land even though they have never had land to manage.


----------



## ryan b.

Technique breakdown, hesitancy, second guessing, dreading outcomes, inability to recoup after “poor” technique. 
TP only happens at Vegas when reality doesn’t align with perception or you’re so terrified of everyone thinking you can’t shoot 560 that you choke and fold. It doesn’t happen in a room full of kids and it doesn’t happen when you’re confident. So if a certain set of eyes, or imagined eyes and minds, are on you then TP is there. And if another certain set of eyes or situation is the environment then you’re fine. The altered terrain can be completely in your mind. 
How important is the hit or miss or “decent” score in front of the pressure inducing group? The answer is that it’s probably like the most important thing in the word and is somehow an extremely powerful part of the shot. I see the same thing happen in hunting and another sport I play even more. The guy told EVERY ONE he’s going to do something (ex. shoot a deer) and the pressure is on! 
Is he allowed to miss a deer? What if he does?! What will alllllll the other people think? What will they think about Ryan The Archer if they see he’s not up to snuff?! 
The mechanics of the shot don’t change when people show up and if they do then it’s your head changing it. 
Snap shooting is the worst. Usually builds not so great form and it’s hard to trace a shot process. Also lots of snap shooters aren’t scoring all their shots so when they do the misses and the low scoring outer rings that can easily be ignored with a positive mindset or not recorded at all (dangerously ignored as not true..) in these non threatening situations no apparent TP. Switch to a scored target and you have in your mind you’re a this or that level shooter and now nothing aligns with reality and the spotlight is on your “failure” etc. 
In my own experience of TP I found I was losing track of the shot process. If things go to crud then refocus on the process you’ve hopefully ingrained already. The one that works. Process only. No outcomes in mind. Easier said than done especially if you’ve practiced outcome based for ten trillion arrows. 

An idea from Limbwalker I REALLY like is the idea of having a couple backup shot process alterations or options in shot process should things start not going your way. Some other way to break the shot and still have strong follow through and positive/attacking mind-set not “oh crap I hope it’s over now” mind.


----------



## ryan b.

By myself and from others I’ve witnessed and talked with: the TP sufferers (I hate that term so down trodden!) Absolutely DO feel like their are some kind of eyes on them when they are alone. 

My recent 300 end scores back yard: 
285 (PR) 
280
279
280
My same scores league 
285 (I’ve done this twice now yay! ) 
265
275
265 

So my scoring range is 285 when I’m hot and doing my best and my pull-myself-out of this unfortunate rutt score is 260 something. So I can shoot 260s to 280s under pressure. 260 is “bad” and 285 is “good” but it’s really just REALITY and I dont need to be getting so acquainted with the different feelings of worth for different shots, just accept them and next shot. 

Not arguing with anyone or particular people or ideas here, these are just my observations.


----------



## Draven Olary

Limbwalker, you are right with one part: I can't speak from the point of view of TP affected archer.
But what I wrote is scientifically sound. The "old way" is not about the snap shooting, but the way you created the neural pathways activating the muscles during your shot sequence. We are animals of habit, and to break a habit requires something. Let's spill it out: what the psycho trigger is doing? It's introducing something new in archer's shot sequence. And because *he believes it helps*, it will help him even if he struggles learning to shoot with it. Woof above said it gives him the time to settle down in the aiming and being aware of the body movement before the shot happens. Why this was not taught in the beginning? Or if was taught why not transposed in reality? All these are a personal thing. There is no recipe, but there are some check boxes that can help someone to not fall in the TP.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> Limbwalker, you are right with one part: I can't speak from the point of view of TP affected archer.
> But what I wrote is scientifically sound. The "old way" is not about the snap shooting, but the way you created the neural pathways activating the muscles. We are animals of habit, and to break a habit requires something. Let's spill it out: what the psycho trigger is doing? It's introducing something new in archer's shot sequence. And because he believes it helps, it will hep him even if he straggles learning to shoot with it. Woof above said it gives him the time to settle down in the aiming and being aware of the body movement before the shot happens. Why this was not taught in the beginning? Or if was taught and not transposed in reality is a personal thing. There is no recipe, but there are some check boxes that can help someone to not fall in the TP.


Hey, I'm not arguing! The advice many PhD biologists give landowners is in fact, scientifically sound as well. It's just academic exercise vs. professional practice. Neither person is "wrong," just coming at it from different angles.

In the case of the clicker - for me at least (sample size of exactly one) - it was an immediate fix for my TP. And it has always worked, even after hundreds of thousands of arrows, including the biggest archery competitions on earth. 

I've taught many barebow archers to "settle down into aiming and be aware of their body movements" and some have not developed TP while others have. Using the clicker on my Olympic rig forces me to practice that over and over and over again. So my body knows that sequence, arguably much better now than it knows my "old habits." 

Again, you make the cure/treatment sound pretty simple. Like I said earlier, I've seen this kind of advice before.


----------



## Hikari

...


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> Again, you make the cure/treatment sound pretty simple. Like I said earlier, I've seen this kind of advice before.


If you read above in my posts I've said that once the TP affected the neural pathways - aka made the archer to not execute how he wants - it is very hard to reverse.
The TP is never cured, it is just kept in check.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. The first thing Joel Turner is advertising is "ironmind" - forcing the archers to have a specific mindset when shooting.
> PS It would be interesting to know why Joel changed from grip sear to bubble in the mouth as timer for the shot. I have an idea, but I would like to hear the reasoning.


Why would anyone even need a “timer for the shot” to begin with?

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

Because he was incapable to develop his trust in the skill he acquired. The more he trusts the skill, the less the "timer" is "against the nature". Looking forward to see when the archer will time the shot on the breathing cycle - some are doing it already.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> Because he was incapable to develop his trust in the skill he acquired. The more he trusts the skill, the less the "timer" is "against the nature". Looking forward to see when the archer will time the shot on the breathing cycle - some are doing it already.


So, by that reasoning, once ”his trust in the skill he acquired” was developed, no shot timer of any type should be required anymore after that, correct?

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

lees said:


> So, by that reasoning, once ”his trust in the skill he acquired” was developed, no shot timer of any type should be required anymore after that, correct?
> 
> lee.


The shanks. The Yips. Trust in the world of target sports is slowly gained and easily lost.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> The shanks. The Yips. Trust in the world of target sports is slowly gained and easily lost.


Exactly. In other words, this “trust in the skill” idea doesn’t seem to perform very well as an explanation for why a “shot timer” seems to relieve TP, does it? When Joel is using his grip sear, he “trusts in his skill”. When he isn’t, he doesn’t. What’s wrong with that picture?

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> So, by that reasoning, once ”his trust in the skill he acquired” was developed, no shot timer of any type should be required anymore after that, correct?
> 
> lee.


Right, because at that moment all his actions are in sink with his intention and believes in them. What you have a hard time to understand is that this "trust" is a life time work in progress and once you got to the level of trusting your skill you already built yourself a personal thinking and mechanical recovery pattern that is bringing you back to order when you have problems. Or at least it is supposed to - this is becoming a personal issue.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> Right, because at that moment all his actions are in sink with his intention and believes in them. What you have a hard time to understand is that this "trust" is a life time work in progress and once you got to the level of trusting your skill you already built yourself a personal thinking and mechanical recovery pattern that is bringing you back to order when you have problems. Or at least it is supposed to - this is becoming a personal issue.


Explain, then, why Joel continues to use a “shot timer”. Why does he still need it if he now has this “trust in his skill”?

lee.


----------



## Draven Olary

Ask him. I am not in his mind and I don't talk for others why they do things in a certain way.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> Ask him. I am not in his mind and I don't talk for others.


This is not an explaination for why Joel still needs a shot timer. The “trust in his skill” theory is your theory, not anyone else’s. So can you explain why it fails here in Joel’s case?

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> Right, because at that moment all his actions are in sink with his intention and believes in them. What you have a hard time to understand is that this "trust" is a life time work in progress and once you got to the level of trusting your skill you already built yourself a personal thinking and mechanical recovery pattern that is bringing you back to order when you have problems. Or at least it is supposed to


So how would you explain all those professional golfers who had the very best instruction from day one, and who later developed the yips in their putting?


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> So how would you explain all those professional golfers who had the very best instruction from day one, and who later developed the yips in their putting?


You know what was in their head when they started to have the yips?
More intimate: Do you know what's in the mind of your students when they have yips?


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> This is not an explaination for why Joel still needs a shot timer. The “trust in his skill” theory is your theory, not anyone else’s. So can you explain why it fails here in Joel’s case?
> 
> lee.


He had no formal archery training (in any discipline) as background. Maybe he uses that timer because is his way to trust his skill. What you see as a fail, is your right, but in no way is making it true without knowing what is happening in his head.

PS The trust in the skill is well known reality in the performance activities of any kind. When you are out there competing, it's not what you were taught that you execute, it is what you took from that teaching and made it personal.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> You know what was in their head when they started to have the yips?
> More intimate: Do you know what's in the mind of your students when they have yips?


That's kind of a non-answer.


----------



## Draven Olary

That's the best answer you will get.
They pay a lot of money to their personal coaches to solve their personal issues.
You didn't answer to the question either, even if we both know the answer is No.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> That's the best answer you will get.
> They pay a lot of money to their personal coaches to solve their personal issues.
> You didn't answer to the question either, even if we both know the answer is No.


Okay, you just made it sound like the problem always goes back to a lack of proper initial instruction. But now it sounds like you have changed your answer.

Your responses confuse me so I'm going to just leave it up to you guys to decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Ya'll have fun out there.


----------



## Draven Olary

Proper instructions is a must, but we are not robots. The guys with proper instruction have better chances to get out of the hole if they fell in it than the ones without it. They can recognise the symptoms and treat them to prevent a collapse or can ask for help the person they trust - their coach. My narrative never changed.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> Proper instructions is a must, but we are not robots. The guys with proper instruction have better chances to get out of the hole if they fell in it than the ones without it. They can recognise the symptoms and treat them to prevent a collapse or can ask for help the person they trust - their coach. My narrative never changed.


Okay.

Now we'll all just wait for you to spend a couple years competing in the barebow division at the national level so you can show us.


----------



## Draven Olary

I will let you know, don't worry. Until then, take care of the youngsters you coach.


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> He had no formal archery training (in any discipline) as background. Maybe he uses that timer because is his way to trust his skill.


Naturally! In other words, he *only* seems to “trust his skill” when he’s using a “shot timer”. Anytime he’s *not* using it, he *doesn’t* “trust his skill”.
Tell me - what good, then, is your “trust in your skill” thing for a shooter if they must rely on a “shot timer” to maintain it? Do you see where you’re going wrong here?

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> I will let you know, don't worry. Until then, take care of the youngsters you coach.


Oh believe me, nothing archery "worries" me anymore. Maybe because I just shoot nowdays  

No more of JOAD archers and parents doing this anymore LOL


----------



## Draven Olary

Eh, some are lucky with the weather. Are you interested in shooting at -37C ?


----------



## limbwalker

Luck has nothing to do with where I choose to live. LOL


----------



## Draven Olary

lees said:


> Naturally! In other words, he *only* seems to “trust his skill” when he’s using a “shot timer”. Anytime he’s *not* using it, he *doesn’t* “trust his skill”.
> Tell me - what good, then, is your “trust in your skill” thing for a shooter if they must rely on a “shot timer” to maintain it? Do you see where you’re going wrong here?
> 
> lee.


No, I don't see because I am not him to know for sure if he is not using it all the time. But from personal experience, once you educated yourself in a way, that action can be transferred and run automatic with a lower level of consciousness aka still happens even if you would like to think is not happening just to make a point.


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> Luck has nothing to do with where I choose to live. LOL


LOL This made my day


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> No, I don't see because I am not him to know for sure if he is not using it all the time. But from personal experience, once you educated yourself in a way, that action can be transferred and run automatic with a lower level of consciousness aka still happens even if you would like to think is not happening just to make a point.


Then I’ll just tell you where you’re going wrong, so you don’t have to wonder. It’s simple: if this “trust in your process” explanation were the correct one, Joel wouldn’t have to use his grip sear anymore to properly execute his shot. And Olympic shooters wouldn’t need clickers, etc. All they’d have to do is follow your “education” program, whatever that could possibly be.

How many shooters have you successfully treated for target panic? Are they still shooting well? And what is your “education“ program, exactly, now that we’re at it?

lee.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Counterpoint: there are plenty of better barebow shooters than Joel Turner that don't use an externally triggered shot or psychotrigger. Including all of the world record holders. There are also several top compound shooters that are "command" shooters. 
A surprise release is one of many solutions to a variety of problems that are all termed target panic (which is part of the issue with this thread: there are at least four different working definitions). It is an effective solution. But it is not necessary for a consistently successful shot.


----------



## Draven Olary

lees

From what you were saying around here, you have a PhD in TP, supposedly healed a lot of people but you were incapable to teach yourself out of TP even when you switched the hands. Your only reason to exist is a psycho-trigger but you are incapable to see the life without it. Strange, but I can understand this.
There is one single "education program": Prevent through training than try to repair once you are "damaged goods". Some know this based on personal life experience, some learn the hard way because they didn't have someone around them to guide them. Joel Turner is "en vogue" for the archers already affected by TP but I still didn't got the answer if the real barebow Coaches introduced a psycho-trigger in the shot sequence when they teach a beginner.


----------



## limbwalker

Who is Joel Turner?


----------



## Draven Olary

SHOT IQ || Unlock Your Shooting Potential


Improve your accuracy in minutes... Learn the science and application of target panic




www.shotiq.com





The gent who created the "grip sear" movement. Jake Kaminski adopted it, using the nail and handle's edge to keep his TP at bay.


----------



## Hikari

I only panic when I have to post here...

ATP?


----------



## lees

Draven Olary said:


> lees
> 
> From what you were saying around here, you have a PhD in TP, supposedly healed a lot of people


Wrong. I never said I healed anyone.


> but you were incapable to teach yourself out of TP even when you switched the hands.


Wrong. I suffered crippling TP for approximately 20 years. I taught myself the surprise release (compound/release aid) and have suffered no symptoms of TP since.

I did not switch hands.

When I shoot barebow, I transfer the same shot to that bow using the grip sear technique.

lee.


----------



## lees

FerrumVeritas said:


> Counterpoint: there are plenty of better barebow shooters than Joel Turner that don't use an externally triggered shot or psychotrigger. Including all of the world record holders. There are also several top compound shooters that are "command" shooters.
> A surprise release is one of many solutions to a variety of problems that are all termed target panic (which is part of the issue with this thread: there are at least four different working definitions). It is an effective solution. But it is not necessary for a consistently successful shot.


That’s not a counterpoint to anything in this thread. No one has claimed that all command-shooters have target panic, or that command-shooters can’t shoot well without developing TP symptoms.

lee.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

Draven Olary said:


> SHOT IQ || Unlock Your Shooting Potential
> 
> 
> Improve your accuracy in minutes... Learn the science and application of target panic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.shotiq.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gent who created the "grip sear" movement. Jake Kaminski adopted it, using the nail and handle's edge to keep his TP at bay.



As someone who, whether it's right or wrong, incorporates both clicker and non clicker shot training during my sessions, and have within my own experience witnessed issues going from click to non click manifesting in flinching my release hand, and I've shot far fewer arrows than Turner or kaminski; I wonder if Jake's target panic with bare bow comes from simpley not having a clicker or because of after hundreds of thousands of shots with a clicker he uses that stimulus as part of his release mental approach. The unprovable curiosity is whether he would have had the no click TP if he never shot all those arrows as an OR competitor. 

Perhaps Limbwalker could comment... whether clicker shooting could result in bare bow TP? I don't have the experience of others here, but it's one hypothesis developed from how switching back and forth effects me for the first shots.


----------



## Draven Olary

Jake's TP comes from his adolescence when he was shooting compound without being instructed "how to". He almost renounced to archery but then he switched for Recurve and the clicker solved his problems. He is using the grip sear when shooting barebow to prevent the TP to come back. He talked about this in one of his videos. He has a video shooting 70m for score using just a grip sear instead clicker if I am remembering right - he is absolutely a Beast in terms of determination, knowledge of his own body and how to use small things to achieve his goals.
PS I can say from my experience when changing the type of archery. Shooting hundred of thousands of arrows in a specific way you have two options: 1 relearn to shoot again or 2 you improvise, transfering. In my opinion his old TP experience was weighing heavy in his decision to go for grip sears - better safe than sorry.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> Jake's TP comes from his adolescence when he was shooting compound without being instructed "how to". He almost renounced to archery but then he switched for Recurve and the clicker solved his problems. He is using the grip sear when shooting barebow to prevent the TP to come back. He talked about this in one of his videos. He has a video shooting 70m for score using just a grip sear instead clicker if I am remembering right - he is absolutely a Beast in terms of determination, knowledge of his own body and how to use small things to achieve his goals.


I've always been one of Jake's fans, even when we weren't getting along like old pals. Kinda wish I'd stayed on the JDT staff long enough to see him come in, because he would have been fun to work with. Jake has a tinkerer's mind and is light years ahead of almost every other recurve (and now barebow) archer I know when it comes to his understanding of equipment and technique and just plain intelligent tinkering. There is no box he thinks within, and that's impressive this day and age, in this sport. My only concern for Jake is burnout. I just hope he's having fun with all this. He's been at it a while now.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> I've always been one of Jake's fans, even when we weren't getting along like old pals. Kinda wish I'd stayed on the JDT staff long enough to see him come in, because he would have been fun to work with. Jake has a tinkerer's mind and is light years ahead of almost every other recurve (and now barebow) archer I know when it comes to his understanding of equipment and technique and just plain intelligent tinkering. There is no box he thinks within, and that's impressive this day and age, in this sport. My only concern for Jake is burnout. I just hope he's having fun with all this. He's been at it a while now.


Speaking of Jake K. - He just posted a video the other day on can you shoot NTS on compound. He says not only yes will NTS work perfectly on it, but also that that’s how one naturally ought to shoot it, just like recurve.

He shoots a few shafts out his compound and narrates his NTS steps along with. I was glued to my computer screen the whole time and couldn’t turn it off. Then I had to watch it again…..

That vid could really pizz off some anti-NTS folks….. 

PS: Jake K. uses a surprise release on compound too; he acknowledges he has TP on compound also, and uses the SR specifically because of it.

lee.


----------



## limbwalker

lees said:


> Speaking of Jake K. - He just posted a video the other day on can you shoot NTS on compound. He says not only yes will NTS work perfectly on it, but also that that’s how one naturally ought to shoot it, just like recurve.
> 
> He shoots a few shafts out his compound and narrates his NTS steps along with. I was glued to my computer screen the whole time and couldn’t turn it off. Then I had to watch it again…..
> 
> That vid could really pizz off some anti-NTS folks…..
> 
> PS: Jake K. uses a surprise release on compound too; he acknowledges he has TP on compound also, and uses the SR specifically because of it.
> 
> lee.


I've long said that the veteran RA's like Jake are the most qualified people in the US to teach NTS.


----------



## Draven Olary

Agreed. Long time ago I told you the people who will be able to teach NTS because they had access to all the knowledge and they made it work and understood the subtle things are Jake Kaminski and Brady Ellison. At that time I told you KSL is like a Sensei teaching in another country and will leave behind two Senpai who trained with him and have the knowledge "translated" and capable to make it "palatable" for the locals. At that moment Jake was still full time professional archer with no intention to teach - at least not visible. The problem is "how the other Coaches in NTS feel about this?" disregarding the fact that is very improbable that Jake will renounce at his independence for a "greater good". I see him more as head of his personal archery academy, in time - which is a better option imo than making him responsible in the country for the NTS training. He is tailored for teaching.


----------



## lees

limbwalker said:


> I've long said that the veteran RA's like Jake are the most qualified people in the US to teach NTS.


As I've written elsewhere, I've not been personally able to make heads or tails of NTS. It's proponents and its detractors both make superb points in favor of each position, from what I can tell just following each line of reasoning, experience, etc. And I follow both lines with relish and fascination.

The compound bow, though, truth be told is the only bow type I can demonstrably operate competently (I can mostly get it on the paper on purpose and not by accident), so Jake Kaminski's video on it the other day was just totally foreign to me. But I was like....er, ok.... awesome!....

As for my failure on the OR, in the final analysis, I think there's something just ain't working right in my right hand. If I follow my own advice and execute my "expansion" accordingly, I get a good clicker-directed release for a few shafts. But I'm utterly unable to repeat it more times than a few ends. The hand/fingers get a mind of their own and I can't physically make the mechanism work right anymore. I also notice that my response time to the clicker is always much slower than I observe it to be from good OR shooters.

Strangely, those items clear up if I use a release aid and d-loop. I can execute good surprise shots all day, with instant, automated response (punch the trigger) to the clicker every time. The groups I shoot that way are amazing too.

This isn't new and has been a problem with my finger release from day 1 when I first tried a finger release almost 40 years ago. I worry that my recent good shots on BB with the grip sear are placebo, and I've already noticed the familiar breakdown beginning to creep in. That was day before yesterday, right as I made the decision to go barebow.

So I may have to just throw in the towel on finger release altogether as I just don't want to shoot a bow the way I have to with whatever's wrong with my hand. And recurve/release aid can't actually be used for anything in target archery, so I don't want to put any work into that at all.

How does any of that relate to the side-topic of NTS... let me try to at least stay on topic here: I'm fascinated by even the suggestion of it being taught on the compound bow. It looks like I have to go back to compound, where I've already fought this battle and won it (tho the war is still ongoing), or just go to plan B which is just find another activity and get out of archery altogether.

But if Jake Kaminski were to continue with presentations of NTS on compound, I would be absolutely fascinated by it, and would be very interested in what kind of result it might have for up and coming compound shooters.

Now that compound is a first-class citizen in target archery, I would be glued to my computer screen at anything where NTS is taught on the compound, and what that would actually look like...

lee.


----------



## ryan b.

Lee, 
If you can do it for a few shots then you can do it. Don’t write yourself off. Book ain’t closed and the shows not over. Make some ridiculously super easy attainable goals on the OR. Like “I’d like to make 3 good shots” if you need to stop before things go south then do it. Baby steps. I know you know but it’s really not impossible. The high level shooters are fast, smooth and controlled. They’ve shot ten trillion more arrows than us so don’t give up because you’re not looking like them. They’ve trained proficiently for hundreds and thousands of shots in a super environment backed by other good archers and coaches. Strive for that, sure, but don’t get discouraged. Do you ever try getting mad? Not like super freaked out screaming off your rocker but mad like I’m gonna swat that dang fly! Grrrr. It’s totally opposite of “oh no here it comes” or “time to throw in the towel”. Try “wow I’m sure getting my but kicked, grrrr 🐯 let’s get another good FEELING shot here like I’ve done in the past. You can try saying “we can do this because we already have before or use “us”, it sometimes tastes better than a failure of the ME. I know you didn’t ask for my opinion but quit judging yourself because it’s holding you back. You seem tenacious and a glutton for punishment which are valuable assets. 

Do you have eyes on you? 
Do you have a couple coaches who can really help (might be a couple hundred dollars but it’s worth a ton)? Use JAKE since you already identify with his teaching style. Ashe from online archery academy is brilliant, Chris Hill is AMAZING if he’s still taking clients. Nuts and Bolts on here can analyze you out of any hole and draw you a map on how to do it. You can post vid here for free and I think everyone would only help not be negative. The struggle is real! Keep on truckin’ !


----------



## lees

ryan b. said:


> Lee,
> If you can do it for a few shots then you can do it. Don’t write yourself off. Book ain’t closed and the shows not over. Make some ridiculously super easy attainable goals on the OR. Like “I’d like to make 3 good shots” if you need to stop before things go south then do it. Baby steps. I know you know but it’s really not impossible. The high level shooters are fast, smooth and controlled. They’ve shot ten trillion more arrows than us so don’t give up because you’re not looking like them. They’ve trained proficiently for hundreds and thousands of shots in a super environment backed by other good archers and coaches. Strive for that, sure, but don’t get discouraged. Do you ever try getting mad? Not like super freaked out screaming off your rocker but mad like I’m gonna swat that dang fly! Grrrr. It’s totally opposite of “oh no here it comes” or “time to throw in the towel”. Try “wow I’m sure getting my but kicked, grrrr 🐯 let’s get another good FEELING shot here like I’ve done in the past. You can try saying “we can do this because we already have before or use “us”, it sometimes tastes better than a failure of the ME. I know you didn’t ask for my opinion but quit judging yourself because it’s holding you back. You seem tenacious and a glutton for punishment which are valuable assets.
> 
> Do you have eyes on you?
> Do you have a couple coaches who can really help (might be a couple hundred dollars but it’s worth a ton)? Use JAKE since you already identify with his teaching style. Ashe from online archery academy is brilliant, Chris Hill is AMAZING if he’s still taking clients. Nuts and Bolts on here can analyze you out of any hole and draw you a map on how to do it. You can post vid here for free and I think everyone would only help not be negative. The struggle is real! Keep on truckin’ !


Do I get mad? Insane, maybe… You should see the callouses on my fingers…. I literally can’t play my basses anymore because they’re so thick…. And the feathers on my recurve arrows, and Id be ashamed to show you a picture of my win&win. They look like something from an archaeological dig… My compound gear all still looks brand new. My recurve stuff looks like it got drug behind the pickup across 3 states, from all my desperate attempts to develop a proper shot.

It may not be a coincidence that I have trouble shooting handheld release aids on compound too. I can do it, but my shot execution is significantly better with a wrist strap. Something about the hook I just can’t quite seem to hang on. There are other problems too.

Having said all that I won’t waste a coach’s time unless there’s hope and if there’s a physical problem, some optimism that I can overcome it or accommodate it. If I’m just not physically able, there’s no point. After 30 years, I think the math is finally just pointing in that direction. I’ll just shoot it in the backyard with my release.

Compound I’m pretty happy with my shot and no major issues, I just can’t seem to rekindle the drive to do it again. It just won’t get in the truck with me when I tell it I’m going to the range.

So I’m back at just get another activity or just stay In the backyard.

If we had more spot shooting in my area that would help, maybe. It 100% 3D here and guessing yardage on rubber deer isn’t really my bag.

welp, that’s my tale of woe…

lee.


----------

