# New Gray Archery Barebow Specific Riser



## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Hi All, Its been a while since I last posted anything on this platform. The past year and a bit have been one hell of a challenge in terms of setting up our factory and getting things up an running during Covid. With that said we are looking at introducing a new riser into the market that is specifically barebow orientated. With that said we are looking at once again teaming up with the community to design something that will take into the view points of the athletes.

I have a couple of design criterion that I have in mind but I am afraid that I will fall short of highlighting all the requirements. So to open up the flood gates of comments here are a list of criteria which i believe should be addressed:

Price Point. We are aiming at a $450 dollar price point- ( what are you as an archery willing or wanting to pay )
Mass. For your bare bow specific dry bow mass we where wanting to go heavier with a riser of 1500g-1750g. Is this too light or to heavy?
Mass Addition, where on the riser would you like to add mass. Would it be beneficial if the bow is able to be weighted top an bottom out of the box?
Center Of Gravity. Do we want it low and forward or more central.... Where have you as an archer found to be the best position?
Would you like to have an ILF or Formula Riser or even Both?
Vibration Damping, would you like to see vibration damping built into the riser?
If you guys want you can have a look at our Survey if you don't want to endlessly comment:

GRAY ARCHERY BARBOW SPECIFIC RISER

We are aware that there is a poll function, but we are using multiple platforms to get as much Data as possible.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Weights on the top of the riser and vibration damping are against the World Archery barebow regs, unless you have some workaround on the rules. I suspect weights on the top wouldn't be helpful anyway, unless you plan a multi-use bow.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

archeryal said:


> Weights on the top of the riser and vibration damping are against the World Archery barebow regs, unless you have some workaround on the rules. I suspect weights on the top wouldn't be helpful anyway, unless you plan a multi-use bow.


There is some room for interpretation in the rules. 

Rulebook | World Archery

We defiantly have some work arounds that will be legal after they are approved...


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I know the CD design is very weight forward and it balances well and is just as heavy above the handle as below... however not everyone loves that feel...I like the ability to add weights to a lighter riser...weights in front do more for balance than in the riser weights. If you really want to target the barebow audience then a longer 27" would be nice. I thought your options for weights on the gray aix were really a good idea and surprised more people haven't tried it... although I don't know of vendors who sell it either? I'd shoot an aix if it hit the 450 dollar mark you mentioned.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

And Jager grip options are a must


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Matter of fact...why don't you just send me an aix and I will run it through the paces shooting barebow.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Surprised not more shooters putting in their 2 cents. You have the chance to build the exact bow you want...a bow that feels like you want it to...or the perfect platform to build from. This game isn't a one size fits all... obviously Gray can't build a bow that everyone will love. Hell, I've put in my two cents and it may not be anything that I like but I have commented none the less. More shooters should be stepping up.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

GRAY Archery said:


> There is some room for interpretation in the rules.
> 
> Rulebook | World Archery
> 
> We defiantly have some work arounds that will be legal after they are approved...


CD Archery risers have their top and bottom weights built-in, and we all know they are legal.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

#2 - That weight range is just about right for me.

#3 - Top and bottom built-in weight is the best way for barebow (like CD Archery WF risers)

#4 - Center of gravity should be slightly forward

#5 - ILF of course

#6 - No vibration damping, please.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Is "price point" just a different way of saying cost?


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Submitted my survey, if you can hit the lower price point then count me in!


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## Rael84 (Feb 22, 2016)

I did the survey, one thing not mentioned is using as few different bolt sizes as possible. If you can have one for weight, grip, and accessory fitment and one for the limb bolts and no more that would be ideal.


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Hi,
Tryed to fill the form but I could not.
Is it working?
Thanks
Martin


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Bottom heavy, 1400-1700 grams, kicks forward, and must be "shiny" anodizing. 😊


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Not having shot the Aix I can't say that I would or wouldn't like the offset below the grip...I think for barebow it should be straight down the center so it will balance more evenly...but I would still try an Aix if you sent it to me.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

If I’m not mistaken the aix is more reflexed than standard Hoyt geometry. Will the bare bow riser be less deflex than “normal” risers, as well?


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## Skeptix_907 (Jul 30, 2020)

I'd like to see options for a longer riser - 27 and 29 inches.

Adjustable grip to create or eliminate deflex. This would be nice for indoors when stability is king and you don't need much speed. More deflex = more stable shot in my opinion.


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

stick monkey said:


> Surprised not more shooters putting in their 2 cents. You have the chance to build the exact bow you want...a bow that feels like you want it to...or the perfect platform to build from. This game isn't a one size fits all... obviously Gray can't build a bow that everyone will love. Hell, I've put in my two cents and it may not be anything that I like but I have commented none the less. More shooters should be stepping up.


OK, I'll comment just for the sake of commenting...
As I read through the points, my only thought was "What makes a riser "Barebow Specific?"

Aside from that, it'll probably take something truly original to separate from the pack. Nothing else to add


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

I think a riser shaped more like a MK s stacks far less than a riser that is more straight up and down. Not sure what the correct term is to describe it is?


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## Tereva (Feb 12, 2015)

Mike Lawless said:


> As I read through the points, my only thought was "What makes a riser "Barebow Specific?"


I was wondering the same.
Is the goal to do something similar to the AIX but with less attachment points / options to reduce the cost?

T.

PS: The AIX sure looks gorgeous


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

I just saw that you do have the limb bolt that is flush to limb. You were the ones to come up with it. 👍. Keeping fingers crossed for a shiny anodized version.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Tereva said:


> I was wondering the same.
> Is the goal to do something similar to the AIX but with less attachment points / options to reduce the cost?
> 
> T.
> ...


Hi Tereva.

There is a big push for barebow in general and we feel that the AIX did not quite hit the mark that we where hoping to hit. So this is to help us understand what we are actually needing to do.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

stick monkey said:


> I know the CD design is very weight forward and it balances well and is just as heavy above the handle as below... however not everyone loves that feel...I like the ability to add weights to a lighter riser...weights in front do more for balance than in the riser weights. If you really want to target the barebow audience then a longer 27" would be nice. I thought your options for weights on the gray aix were really a good idea and surprised more people haven't tried it... although I don't know of vendors who sell it either? I'd shoot an aix if it hit the 450 dollar mark you mentioned.


We have an AIX in 27" and RH but the price point is the problem. Due to the AIX's asymmetrical windows, the billet used is very thick and is expensive to manufacture. So the thing is you would shoot the AIX if it was cheaper.....


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Mike Lawless said:


> OK, I'll comment just for the sake of commenting...
> As I read through the points, my only thought was "What makes a riser "Barebow Specific?"
> 
> Aside from that, it'll probably take something truly original to separate from the pack. Nothing else to add


I think we can manage something original, we have done it before.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Arcus said:


> Is "price point" just a different way of saying cost?


Most definitely.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Braveheart said:


> I think a riser shaped more like a MK s stacks far less than a riser that is more straight up and down. Not sure what the correct term is to describe it is?


Its all got to do with the angle of the limbs , and the stacking is more of a limb factor as the limbs are 500 times more flexible than the riser in anycase.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Please see the results of the survey so far.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Is there really an advantage to the asymmetrical windows? The cost of material and the labor of machining makes it too expensive. For barebow the bottom half should not be offset... allowing weight to be more balanced. I imagine that a heavier barebow specific riser will have less machining overall... especially on the lower half... But still having the threaded holes on right and left sides but rather them be 5/16-24. So no to the Free aix?


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

stick monkey said:


> Is there really an advantage to the asymmetrical windows? The cost of material and the labor of machining makes it too expensive. For barebow the bottom half should not be offset... allowing weight to be more balanced. I imagine that a heavier barebow specific riser will have less machining overall... especially on the lower half... But still having the threaded holes on right and left sides but rather them be 5/16-24. So no to the Free aix?


There is a massive advantage when using the asymetrical window. 

You center shot displacement in the horizontal is 6 times less than that of a regular window riser as the bottom window cancels out the displacement of the top window deflection.
The weight distribution of the "barebow" with an asymetrical window is almost in the middle of the riser. Please see review done by Dirk a couple of years back...The Barebow Group : Been shooting GRAY archery Riser for about a month
5/16unf will be the way foward, 1/4 unc is a stupid thread size.
With that said we are thinking of not including the asymmetric window but we will come up with something exciting....
Check your PM


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Sorry I can’t get my head around the geometry, maybe I misunderstood something. Why is the starting billet bigger for the asymmetric shape? The pockets are the same size and in the same orientation but with the bottom section being in line with the string you cut material away both sides, with asymmetric you cut away the same amount but from one side. (Grossly over simplified I know).

Kind of fancy a 27” Gray for Olympic style but they don’t seen to be on sale anywhere in the UK.

Stretch


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

UK_Stretch said:


> Sorry I can’t get my head around the geometry, maybe I misunderstood something. Why is the starting billet bigger for the asymmetric shape? The pockets are the same size and in the same orientation but with the bottom section being in line with the string you cut material away both sides, with asymmetric you cut away the same amount but from one side. (Grossly over simplified I know).
> 
> Kind of fancy a 27” Gray for Olympic style but they don’t seen to be on sale anywhere in the UK.
> 
> Stretch


The AIX is a "wide" riser to start off with at 50mm wide. Standard machining practice is to have a little bit of meat on either side as that will enable you to machine under the "skin" of the material. The Mill finish on the plates can be hard and have a lot of stress built up in them and with that we machine from a 60mm wide billet. Our design could be better managed in this respect. I am up for correction on this but if we had to compare to risers made in the States, I would believe that the standard 2" plate would be a little thicker than the equivalent metric plate but I can find any evidence to support my theory. It would make the riser design a little cheaper.

Have sent you a PM


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

I was interested in the AIX from the very beginning since I really like new ideas being developed by small and innovative companies. Two years later I got an offer on one I "couldn't resist"

Now shooting it for a few weeks, first with Uukha Sx+, now with MK Zest, here are my very persona conclusions you might want to take into consideration when designing the new riser.

The AIX is the best feeling riser I've shot so far. The ergonomic, especially the grip and the overall look just looks and feels right to me. Unfortunately, the proposed "hard coat anodizing" finish is not hard anodized at all (at least from a technical point o view). Hard anodizing describes an anodized surface that goes deeper into the material forming a thicker top layer out of this hard chemical/electrical modified aluminum surface which is usually very durable. The anodizing finish AIX has, is basically the weakest and thinnest gray anodizing I've seen in a while thin and easy to scratch (I do have wear marks as if I'm shooting it for years just by carrying it in the bag inside the cover and setting it up regularly a few times per week). So this was the first bummer thinking "this would be so easy to avoid by actually at least having it anodized by regular standards" - not even considering calling this finish "hard anodizing".

The big issue I'm having with the AIX is located around the ILF fitting and tiller bolt layout.
I was very excited about the pivoting tiller bolt offering a 90°contact between the tiller bolts surface and the limbs regardless of tiller adjustments. Unfortunately, the person who designed it must have not done his/her homework to the very end. Being aware that Uukha limbs have a shorter u-groove than average (about 1mm on SX+ limbs) I had the issue that the bottom of the limb's u-groove was touching the tiller bolt before the dovetail had a chance to go all the way in, regardless of how far in or out the tiller bolts had been set. - Later I experienced the same issue with my MK Zest Limbs and started investigating.

It looks like the average distance from the dovetails resting position to the center of the tiller bolts was taken (looking at the riser pocket from the front and measuring along the bottom surface) which would offer plenty of space between the limb's u-groove and tiller bolt as long as the tiller bolt sticks out 90° to the limb pocket's surface.
But since the tiller bolts are pivoting "away" from the center it results in a reduction of the mentioned distance between the dovetail-rest-position and the tiller bolt/u-groove.
I thought it was just a too-close call on the shorter Uukhau-grooves. As it turned out, it is also too close for any other limb since the distance I'm referring to is just too short for this pivoting tiller bolts concept. It ALWAYS results in the limb not resting perfectly 90° against the tiller bolt/parallel to the tiller bolts-head and the initial degrees missing applying forces (F1 in pictures below) on the bare bottom of the limbs u-groove with every draw circle (since it wants to sit parallel but cant) slowly pushing the limb's dovetail out of the pocket where it is able to gain lateral movement (resulting in a floating string). I had once again a "drifting center shot" similar to the issue with my loose sitting dovetail T-Blocks on the ATF-X. I'm assuming that this won't be much of an issue at lower poundage (since you can set the tiller bolts in a way that they don't touch the u-groove's bottom and just crank them) but drawing somewhere around 48# the tiller bolts will seek for their physically natural resting position.
Basically, it looks like (which is very unfortunate since I really believe in this concept) the design wasn't thought to the very end and someone must have forgotten that limbs and tiller bolts are traveling on very different radiuses. - A simple mistake leading to a riser that is basically useless (for me) and can not be repaired in any way.

I don't know if my description of this problem makes much sense since I tend to overcomplicate stuff, especially in a foreign language. But I've attached a few pictures trying to show the theory behind this issue. The red lines are showing how it is and the green lines should show where the correct positions/distances are supposed to be.

I'll continue shooting the riser for now just being aware and keeping an eye on the limbs but unfortunately, I will need to look for another riser.. again.

Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.
Dennis


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## dragonbn (Dec 17, 2017)

Dennis2581 said:


> I was interested in the AIX from the very beginning since I really like new ideas being developed by small and innovative companies. Two years later I got an offer on one I "couldn't resist"
> 
> Now shooting it for a few weeks, first with Uukha Sx+, now with MK Zest, here are my very persona conclusions you might want to take into consideration when designing the new riser.
> 
> ...


And that’s why I sold both my AIX risers and switched back to Hoyt.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

So I hope this is addressed in the next model... and I hope they caught it before they started producing the 27" aix that Gray mentioned...


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Dennis2581 said:


> I was interested in the AIX from the very beginning since I really like new ideas being developed by small and innovative companies. Two years later I got an offer on one I "couldn't resist"
> 
> Now shooting it for a few weeks, first with Uukha Sx+, now with MK Zest, here are my very persona conclusions you might want to take into consideration when designing the new riser.
> 
> ...


That's good information and good pictures to back it up.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Dennis2581 said:


> I was interested in the AIX from the very beginning since I really like new ideas being developed by small and innovative companies. Two years later I got an offer on one I "couldn't resist"
> 
> Now shooting it for a few weeks, first with Uukha Sx+, now with MK Zest, here are my very persona conclusions you might want to take into consideration when designing the new riser.
> 
> ...


How far out are the tiller bolts in your pictures? And what is the manufacturers recommendation for maximum turns out?

Does anyone make a tiller bolt with a pivoting bezel that will fit this riser? Similar to the Hoyt pro series with the floating head. I know it is not a fix, but maybe a band-aid to alleviate the contact in the U groove.


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How far out are the tiller bolts in your pictures? And what is the manufacturer's recommendation for maximum turns out?


Oh boy.. haven't we had a "lovely" chat in one of my other threads?

It doesn't matter if the tiller bolts are at mid-range, all the way in, or all the way out, this problem always appears to be the same because of the incorrect distance and pivoting movement around the tiller bolts. In order to have limbs working correctly, the u-groove would need to be at least 7-10mm deeper than any conventionally available ILF limb has. (in order to avoid the tiller bolt hitting the bottom of the limb's u-groove). If my math has been done correctly, shifting the pivoting tiller bolt design about 8mm closer towards the middle of the riser would also work. This can only be changed in the design and during the machining process of the riser, unfortunately, there's no way to correct these positions afterward, even by heavily modifying the riser.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Dennis2581 said:


> Oh boy.. haven't we had a "lovely" chat in one of my other threads?
> 
> It doesn't matter if the tiller bolts are at mid-range, all the way in, or all the way out, this problem always appears to be the same because of the incorrect distance and pivoting movement around the tiller bolts. In order to have limbs working correctly, the u-groove would need to be at least 7-10mm deeper than any conventionally available ILF limb has. (in order to avoid the tiller bolt hitting the bottom of the limb's u-groove). If my math has been done correctly, shifting the pivoting tiller bolt design about 8mm closer towards the middle of the riser would also work. This can only be changed in the design and during the machining process of the riser, unfortunately, there's no way to correct these positions afterward, even by heavily modifying the riser.


You have a knack for finding problems with risers and it is kind of fascinating. Also please accept my sincere compliments on your communication skills in a second language. 

I think I grasp your explanation of the problem. There are still threads showing on the tiller bolt in your pics, so I am just curious about cranking them down tighter. In my mind, the limb butt will pivot downward as the limb bolt is cranked in, sort of flattening the angle of the top side of the limb in relation to the limb pad. Will this not allow the underside of the tiller bolt to sit flush on the top side of the limb, without pivoting outward and into the U? Maybe the bolts cannot go down far enough?

I'm very surprised they did not catch this in testing before the riser was released to the public. Perhaps these risers were designed around and tested with a non-standard limb that has deep U's? Wow this thread has been officially derailed. Good old ArcheryTalk. 


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> There are still threads showing on the tiller bolt in your pics, so I am just curious about cranking them down tighter.


(EDIT: Picture added) 

With a conventional tiller bolt design (fixed angle) the following would happen. (picture for better imagination below, also consider taking a set of limbs and riser and just try to pivot it while watching the u-groove gap for better understanding)
Imagine the tiller bolts are all the way out and the limbs are clicked in. Due to the rather extreme angle, the edge (A) of the limb would rest against the tiller bolt and the gab between the tiller bolt and the limb's u-groove bottom would be rather large.
Let's start turning the tiller bolts further in, the limbs obviously would tilt while traveling along the dovetail. Due to this traveling radius the rational distance between the limb's u-groove bottom and tiller bolt will become narrower with every turn added. So in fact turning the limb bolts further in would result in even less distance between the u-groove bottom and limb bolt. This is also the reason why some manufacturers advise the user not to turning the limb bolts too far out in order to avoid the limb's bottom edge touching the limb bolt beyond the limb bolt's center.

Breaking it down to this pivoting limb bolt concept - if done correctly the rational distance would not change as much between the limb's u-groove bottom and tiller bolt as long as the tiller bolt's angle can travel with the angle of the limb.
But still, the distance would vary (due to the fact that limb and tiller bolt are not traveling on the same center of rotation when being pivoted) in the very same way as mentioned above, just a little bit less.

Conclusion: turning the tiller bolts even further in would result in an even less ideal limb fit, amplifying the issue described in my first post referring to this topic.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Dennis2581 said:


> (EDIT: Picture added)
> 
> With a conventional tiller bolt design (fixed angle) the following would happen. (picture for better imagination below, also consider taking a set of limbs and riser and just try to pivot it while watching the u-groove gap for better understanding)
> Imagine the tiller bolts are all the way out and the limbs are clicked in. Due to the rather extreme angle, the edge (A) of the limb would rest against the tiller bolt and the gab between the tiller bolt and the limb's u-groove bottom would be rather large.
> ...


What you are saying makes sense. I wonder if Gray has a response to this issue.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Dennis2581 said:


> I was interested in the AIX from the very beginning since I really like new ideas being developed by small and innovative companies. Two years later I got an offer on one I "couldn't resist"
> 
> Now shooting it for a few weeks, first with Uukha Sx+, now with MK Zest, here are my very persona conclusions you might want to take into consideration when designing the new riser.
> 
> ...


Hi Dennis, first and foremost we are saddened to hear that you are not satisfied with your riser. We value your views and we will provide you with some feedback.

With regards to the “Hard Annodizing” we can say that with certainty that the risers were anodized correctly. The issue that I believe you are having is more in line with the surface preparation of the unit which we have changed. The riser gets bead blasted to give the matte finish and we had found that the this resulted in a rough finish that would be abrasive by nature. So what you are experiencing is almost like a chalk board effect where any hard objects that touch/scratch the riser will deposit material onto the coating. Please can you send a picture of where the coating has worn through to bare alluminium?

With regards to this issue we have changed our blasting procedures as well as our media that we use to blast. Also we now do all our Annodizing and surface preparation in house to overcome this issue.

With regards to the limb and tiller bolt fitting, there is no question that the Uukha limbs have been problematic so much so that we have written communication from Uukha stating that they have reduced this distance ( dove tail to U) from their old limbs to their newer limbs.

With regards to the MK limbs, this is the first time that this problem has been reported to us. We will investigate the issue and take it up with MK.

I have personally found that the fitment of the limb to the bolt is also critical and differs considerably between manufacturers. Do you have float left right between the bolt and the limb?

In short, the AIX a limb pocket was designed around the usage of Hoyt and Win&Win limbs, the two most prolific archery equipment suppliers in the world. It is difficult to design around a standard (ILF) that does not formally exist.


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

GRAY Archery said:


> So what you are experiencing is almost like a chalk board effect where any hard objects that touch/scratch the riser will deposit material onto the coating.


I consider myself very lucky to have the opportunity of handling regular anodized parts as well as hard coat anodized parts every day in my main job as a mechanical engineer. I'm aware of a "chalkboard" effect and not referring to this "issue" since it can be wiped off. I do have scratches down to the bare surface around certain edges which tells me that there's something definitely not correct within the treatment process (will post pictures latter)



GRAY Archery said:


> With regards to the limb and tiller bolt fitting, there is no question that the Uukha limbs have been problematic so much so that we have written communication from Uukha stating that they have reduced this distance ( dove tail to U) from their old limbs to their newer limbs.


I'm referring to the latest generations of Uukha limbs (Sx+) which are almost identically to all other limbs on the market now in terms of their critical dimensions.



GRAY Archery said:


> Do you have float left right between the bolt and the limb?


No, I haven't. Each set of limbs I own and tried sits tight around the u-groove but has the opportunity to develop side by side play around the dovetail since it is not able to sit in the bare bottom of it.



GRAY Archery said:


> In short, the AIX a limb pocket was designed around the usage of Hoyt and Win&Win limbs, the two most prolific archery equipment suppliers in the world.


I'm sorry, but I get the impression that you are maybe not aware of the design issue and try to look/blame limb manufacturers for that. As I've said earlier, I tried more than one set of limbs around different manufacturers (including W&W) and they all show the same problem (obviously, since their critical dimensions are not more than +/-0.8mm apart from each other).
In order to have this system work correctly, the u-groove of the limb would need to be about 8-10mm deeper than average and I don't think that this is the case on any limb available out there!

There is absolutely no compatibility issue with different limbs. In fact, none of them are working/fitting correctly.

It's just a design flaw referring to the actual distance between the dovetail bottom and the tiller bolt being way too short due to the pivoting design. It might work at the first glance but look deeper (or read my first post in this thread again) and you will see where the issue originates.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

I am relatively new to barebow after being seriously in Olympic recurve since 2004.
I am also already 75 & always preferred light risers and the PSE X-Factor was my go-to Olympic recurve riser with 5 of them at one time and always had at least 2 complete set-ups on hand..

Right now I am quite pleased with my Spigarelli Explorer II riser as it also gives me the option to convert to Olympic recurve configuration anytime although it is also really configured for Barebow..

I am also considering getting the Spigarelli Zen which is also light and convertible to Olympic recurve anytime..

My point is if you make a Barebow specific Riser only which is already heavy from the beginning you will lose the market for seniors like myself or even some ladies who are also looking for a lighter riser..

Besides as long as you have the proper places for additional weights which the Spigarelli's have it is easy enough to add weights...


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

GRAY Archery said:


> So what you are experiencing is almost like a chalk board effect where any hard objects that touch/scratch the riser will deposit material onto the coating.





GRAY Archery said:


> Please can you send a picture of where the coating has worn through to bare alluminium?


As mentioned, these are the non-chalkboard effect (of which I'm having plenty by now) scratches and wear marks I'm having after 3 weeks of very careful usage. All of them are going down to the bare blank aluminum



























Also, after today's training, I do have some more data to back up a certain (in)accuracy chart. Within the last months, I've tracked my scores (36 arrow @70m average within 5-8 training sessions) with different limb/riser combinations. Also, I'm going to list the average scores I shot by the end of last year's outdoor season with the stock ATF-X and with my modified limb alignment module installed, and later on with the Uukha setup.

Last year's sessions had been shot with X10 410 and this year's sessions with NPX 450. I have not discovered any dramatic difference between X10 and NPX and all setups were tuned with the bare shaft hitting centered at 30m.

Especially with the AIX setup, I experienced a rather unusual large left to right stray after the first two sessions (looks like the dovetail was able to develop some more play not being all the way in) along with drifting limb alignments (by double-checking with some Beiter limb guards) and obviously corresponding drift in my center shot (point of the arrow is sometimes peeking out to the left or right when pointing along the alignment/stabilizer/string shadow), very similar to the issue I experienced with the stock W&W ATF-X t-blocks which had a huge play in the dovetail.

Late 2020 (36 arrow average):
W&W ATF-X (stock) & 70" W&W NS:________286
W&W ATF-X (modified) & 70" W&W NS: _____310
Uukha XPro2 & Uukha Vx+: ________________312

2021 (36arrow average):
Uukha Xpro2 & Uukha Sx+:_________________321
Gray AIX & Uukha Sx+ (first two sessions):___312
Gray AIX & Uukha Sx+ (next three sessions):_294
Gray AIX & MK Zest (5 sessions):___________292
Uukha Xpro2 & MK Zest (2 sessions):________319

So according to my calculations and tracking of scoring the AIX is about 9.1% less accurate than any other setup I've shot so far.


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

Dennis2581 said:


> I was interested in the AIX from the very beginning since I really like new ideas being developed by small and innovative companies. Two years later I got an offer on one I "couldn't resist"
> 
> Now shooting it for a few weeks, first with Uukha Sx+, now with MK Zest, here are my very persona conclusions you might want to take into consideration when designing the new riser.
> 
> ...


I'm curious why you don't loosen the alignment so it will swing, set your limbs all the way in and snug the bolt up to the the U-groove? Even if it's not "perfectly perpendicular" it's a fair bit better than most of the other systems on premium bows. I'm also a bit confused about why you might think there might be lateral shifting inside the dovetail when the groove is fixed? The dovetail fitting is designed to accommodate adjustment, but when the bow is strung, the tapered surfaces create face to face alignment. Once you've aligned the string, does it come out of alignment? I've not seen that with my AIX.


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How far out are the tiller bolts in your pictures? And what is the manufacturers recommendation for maximum turns out?
> 
> Does anyone make a tiller bolt with a pivoting bezel that will fit this riser? Similar to the Hoyt pro series with the floating head. I know it is not a fix, but maybe a band-aid to alleviate the contact in the U groove.
> 
> ...


I believe the Akusta Fotron has the pivoting bolts


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

Cuthbert said:


> I'm curious why you don't loosen the alignment so it will swing, set your limbs all the way in and snug the bolt up to the the U-groove? Even if it's not "perfectly perpendicular" it's a fair bit better than most of the other systems on premium bows.


This is unfortunately not 100% correct. There are two main problems.
1st: Having the limb alignment (which also tightens the pivot mechanism) semi-tight does not ensure that the alignment will come loose accidentally within several ends of shooting.

2nd: Having the bolts pivoting more freely would even amplify the limbs getting pushed out.

Let me try to explain; The limb's dovetail pin (A) serves as a pivot point for the entire limb. Unstrung, the limb can pivot freely on the dovetail (movement b). So the limbs are not only forcing force F1 on the riser but also on the opposite side of the pivot point in the exact opposite direction (force F2). Having the limb bolts pivoting more loosely would not prevent the following situation. Force F2 gets partially transferred into force F3, due to where the limbs bottom end naturally rests against the tiller bolt's head, pushing the limb out of the dovetail's bottom and against force F4 pushing the limb into the dovetail's bottom (caused by pulling the bow back / the limbs natural tension when the bow is strung, similar).
I believe and have observed that in all cases, regardless of tiller bolt setting, Force F3 must be equal or slightly larger than F4 which results in a "floating" dovetail relatively to the tension/current draw length of the bow. All of this gets backed up by rather large friction caused by the limb's body actually resting against the riser (area C).










As I've said earlier, this concept would offer an almost perfect solution/transfer or force if the position of the limb bolt's pivot point would be correct resulting in the limb bolts not interfering with the bottom of the limb's u-groove.

For further records and in case anyone who's not so familiar with the ILF system and how it should work, here is how the limb's u-groove is supposed to sit against the tiller bolt (only offering lateral support).












Braveheart said:


> I believe the Akusta Fotron has the pivoting bolts


Looks like a knockoff of Gray's concept and since it is Chinese I bet my a.. that it uses the very same faulty distance as the origin for the tiller bolt's pivot point. - Anyone interested in finding out ;-)


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## Osiris155 (Jun 27, 2016)

I see it. Great explanation.


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

Dennis2581 said:


> This is unfortunately not 100% correct. There are two main problems.
> 1st: Having the limb alignment (which also tightens the pivot mechanism) semi-tight does not ensure that the alignment will come loose accidentally within several ends of shooting.
> 
> 2nd: Having the bolts pivoting more freely would even amplify the limbs getting pushed out.
> ...



I wasn't suggesting keeping it free swinging, and I can see the effect you're illustrating here. I don't have a set of Uukha limbs to test to see if once the tiller bolt gets locked in place whether F3, F2 has the ability to overcome F4 Man, It sure would be a lot simpler if Uukha had just left it alone. What's the point of calling it ILF if you change the one thing that makes it universal. I have a set of 1990s sky limbs on my AIX, and I can wind them out and never have this issue. The same can be said of all the other limbs of various manufacture I own. I can see how Gray can fix it, but it is a monumental shame that they have to.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

I have a hard time believing f3 from the tiller bolt trying to level itself will exceed the inward force of the limbs f4. I was wrong once before though, so I could be incorrect a second time I suppose. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

Cuthbert said:


> It sure would be a lot simpler if Uukha had just left it alone.



Please read through the thread again. This is NOT about Uukha limbs. Uukha limbs u-groove is perfectly fine and its dimensions are (the new Sx limbs, and others/current generations) are equal to any other limbs on the market. The source of this issue is not to find within limb manufacturers since ALL limbs out there will have the same problem. 

Leaving the limb bolts pivoting would theoretically result in infinity resting point options for the pivoting tiller bolt (it could stop and rest against the bottom of the limbs U-groove at any angle) until it would sit flush with the limb forming a 90° angle with the limb's surface (which is unlikely to happen since F4 is working against ist).


Also, the composite material's structure of a limb's u-groove is very unlikely designed to handle larger forces continuously (caused by the limb bolt pressing against the u-groove bottom) which will slowly result in wear of the groove's depth. (handling just lateral support, as designed, applies way less force on the limb's u-groove and its material)


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

GRAY Archery said:


> With regards to the limb and tiller bolt fitting, there is no question that the Uukha limbs have been problematic so much so that we have written communication from Uukha stating that they have reduced this distance ( dove tail to U) from their old limbs to their newer limbs.


I have an AIX, and it isn't an issue with any of my limbs, even if I back out the limb bolts to the degree I saw in your photos. The Limb bolt lays flat, and there is space between the bottom of the groove and the bolt.


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

Cuthbert said:


> I have an AIX, and it isn't an issue with any of my limbs, even if I back out the limb bolts to the degree I saw in your photos. The Limb bolt lays flat, and there is space between the bottom of the groove and the bolt.


would love to see some pictures (also, what poundage are you shooting?).
I contacted my dealer on friday and he replayed yesterday telling me that he has tried to mimic the issue I‘m describing on his girlfriend‘s AIX with W&W limbs. In fact he comes to the very same conclusion. He was not aware of it since the low poundage had offered to crank the limb bolts at an angle where they are not touching the u-groove (but leaving a gap between the limb‘s surface and the tiller bolt head not sitting parallel). When I try the same, i can hear a „click“ with every shot and the tiller bolt moves slowly towards the u-groove‘s bottom until it is in contact with it, still applying force where it shouldn’t.


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

Dennis2581 said:


> would love to see some pictures (also, what poundage are you shooting?).
> I contacted my dealer on friday and he replayed yesterday telling me that he has tried to mimic the issue I‘m describing on his girlfriend‘s AIX with W&W limbs. In fact he comes to the very same conclusion. He was not aware of it since the low poundage had offered to crank the limb bolts at an angle where they are not touching the u-groove (but leaving a gap between the limb‘s surface and the tiller bolt head not sitting parallel). When I try the same, i can hear a „click“ with every shot and the tiller bolt moves slowly towards the u-groove‘s bottom until it is in contact with it, still applying force where it shouldn’t.


Give me a day to record my tune numbers before I start backing things out. In the mean time, can you measure this dimension on your limbs to compare notes. My calipers shifted a bit when I was staging this photo, but the measurement is correct for the skyjack limbs. I'm curious.


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

Already done last Friday, just a bit different, analog & metric 

assuming the bolt‘s diameter is 11mm, our limbs are quite close together



Cuthbert said:


> Give me a day to record my tune numbers before I start backing things out. In the mean time, can you measure this dimension on your limbs to compare notes. My calipers shifted a bit when I was staging this photo, but the measurement is correct for the skyjack limbs. I'm curious.
> View attachment 7394704


Btw;
It is very likely that the way the clear coat gets peeled off around the u-groove of your limbs originates in a pressure point around the bottom edge of the u-groove's bottom (where your calipers are in the picture) caused by the pivoting tiller bolts. So I'm just assuming that it is very unlikely that there actually is a gap between the tiller bolt and limb. This is exactly the wear was thinking about in this post:



Dennis2581 said:


> Also, the composite material's structure of a limb's u-groove is very unlikely designed to handle larger forces continuously (caused by the limb bolt pressing against the u-groove bottom) which will slowly result in wear of the groove's depth.


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## TilmanTilman (Apr 19, 2021)

Hello everyone,

my name is Tilman and I am the founder and owner of bogensportshop.eu and in fact I sold the Gray Archery riser to @Dennis2581. My girlfriend shoots a Gray Archery Aix, too, that is why this riser is often seen in videos from our youtube channel (e.g. 



). Just so you know where I am coming from.

After Dennis told me about the issue, I took my girlfriends riser and checked it myself. She is using Win&Win Inno Ex Prime limbs, so, we have another brand of limbs here. I was surprised that I could actually reproduce what Dennis reported with her bow. I never looked into it before. She only has a draw weight of around 30 lbs and never reported any issues.

The first thing I did was to put the limbs in as usual. There was a little gap between the head of the tiller bolt and the limb surface. So I used a hex key in the bolt head to move it a bit until it was perfectly aligned with the limb surface and the gap was gone. In fact, while doing so, I pushed the limb out a bit.

So this is how it looked like:










What I did next was the following: I gently pushed back the limb into the bow until I heard a "click" from the dovetail, telling me the limb was in position. By doing so, I actually pushed the tiller bolt out of it's position. It is not much, but it definitely moves, creating a gap between the bolt head and the limb:










So my takeaway is, that there is no space beween the U of the limb and the bolt. The limb really can't align with the tiller bolt, because the bolt sits too close to the dovetail. @GRAY Archery said that it should work with Win&Win limbs. Maybe the issue is less pronounced, or doesn't happen with all Win&Win limbs, but it does happen with the Win&Win my girlfriend uses.

She is shooting the bow for over a year now. The reason it was less of a problem probably is a combination the draw weight and the position of the tiller bolts. It looks like they are screwed in more compared to how Dennis has them, reducing the angle. So it doesn't really work as intended, but it is not better or worse than other bows, where there is always a gap between the limb and the head of the limb bolt.

Hope that this helps.


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

TilmanTilman said:


> creating a gap between the bolt head and the limb:


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

(EDIT: unfortunately, there had been an error when writing the initial post above and I'm not able to edit it (error message on every attempt) - So here's the complete post again.

One additional thing I'd like to point out which is the reason why the formed gap between the limb and limb bolt is not that obvious: The aluminum "cap" surrounding the head of the tiller bolt (green on Tilman's riser) sits loosely around the actual tiller bolt, being able to pivot as well (like Hoyt's old "pro" tiller bolts-concept or the additional washers Uukha has installed on their tiller bolts) cosmetically compensating an imperfect angle between the limb bolt's head and the limb.


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Up Top, most interesting!.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Dennis2581 said:


> As mentioned, these are the non-chalkboard effect (of which I'm having plenty by now) scratches and wear marks I'm having after 3 weeks of very careful usage. All of them are going down to the bare blank aluminum
> 
> View attachment 7394548
> 
> ...


Hi Dennis, In our opinion the marks that are present are what we refer to the above mentioned Chalk Board affect which we have addressed. To see if an anodizing has actually worn through, one should take an electronic tester and test for continuity. If the coating has worn through then the bare aluminum will be conductive. Anodizing in its self if not conductive and is a process that is used to make aluminum parts non-conductive. If you have a look by the grip, that is metal pickup from your ring. The same can be said for the other areas with regards to tools.


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## Dennis2581 (Jul 21, 2019)

I'm sorry, but you're kidding, right?

After days of silence and after you have reached out to me asking for serial numbers on my risers (I purchased two) in order to investigate the problem. I've heard back from my dealer Tilman who must have also reached out to you. He forwarded me your "offer" that can not be taken seriously, I'm sorry.



GRAY Archery said:


> "A previous client had the issue with Uukha limbs, (again we must stress that we have only ever had this problem reported to us by users of older Uuhka limbs), and we came up with a fairly simple shim to address the problem. The shim can be seen below. The shim was originally 3d printed to let the limb seat more back and worked very well and is still in use. We are willing to offer Dennis 2 sets of 2 different lengths ( 2mm and 3mm) made from aluminium and anodised at the cost of 6 Euro per set excluding shipping. This way Dennis will still be able to shoot the riser and feel more comfortable with the limb fit and adjust to what he feels is correct."












You are still denying that there is even an issue and claim that only with older Uukha limbs, there could be something wrong while we have now proven that there actually is an issue with ANY limb available due to a dimension error on YOUR end. Selling a "solution" to a problem the manufacturer has caused in order to let the customer"use" the product as originally intended, is also quite questionable.

This "adapter" would not fix the problem, it partially would make it worse. Due to manufacturing tolerances and the lag of true parallel surfaces (the adapter could easily rotate within the dovetail groove), this adapter could tilt and pivot easily within the dovetail groove causing more inaccuracy. Furthermore, it would make the riser 1/4"-1/2" longer and also would lead to the limb resting (behind the dovetail) on the edge of the riser. This is not really to be considered an ideal situation. The dovetail is the most critical point within the whole connection and having loose parts sitting here is not only unprofessional, but also dangerous!

Regarding your comment on anodizing. As I said, don't play a fool. I'm aware of the difference between "surface scratches" that can be whipped off and real damage down to the bare aluminum. These scratched came in easy and yes, I have now also taken a multimeter before posting about them, and - oh snap- THEY ARE CONDUCTIVE.

I don't know for how long you're doing business and handling customers. Out of my personal experience of running a small business selling technical products to private customers for almost a decade; I can only advise you to think twice about how you handle situations like this, especially in regards to actual customers who have purchased your product and paid a decent amount of money out of their pocket in order to expect a working product and proper support. The customer is definitely NOT always right, but it is still a business's job to at least attempting a positive outcome of any interaction with customers.

I had intentions of supporting a small and growing brand but after the whole thread at AT and these conversations I don't see a bright future for your business, I'm sorry.

Don't expect being more or less immune to criticism, deny all problems that have been pointed out multiple times and very strictly now, along with offering NO customer support/service, will lead to thriving business and money to fall from heaven.

I consider myself to be very lucky that my dealer @TilmanTilman has offered me to take the risers back. - I hope he will get compensated as well and is not forced to cover the "damage" out of his pocket.

I'm out, bye!


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

Ouch.
I don't have a dog in this fight, maybe I should mind my own business. But I'll stick my nose in anyway. I'm just an old coot who tries to pay attention on where to spend my money.

I know of quite a few businesses in the drag racing world (I've been a part of that world for 45 years) that have diverted responsibility for manufacturing errors, and are no longer in business. Now drag racing is a far different thing, granted. Parts are stressed to the point of breakage on a frequent basis. As such, manufacturers of "Less Than Optimal" pieces are quickly weeded out. The word spreads quickly, and they are done.

I don't know Dennis personally, but in reading his conclusions, they are well thought out, and documented. After reading everything that has publicly transpired, I'd have to stand with Dennis on this. If that doesn't sit well with some, so be it.

A most unfortunate turn of events for Gray Archery. Not a good look...At all.


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

I must echo another poster on this thread, you do seem to have a knack for finding design issues @Dennis2581.

The only thing I'd have to add that hasn't been said is that this issue of tiller bolt - limb butt groove spacing can be easily seen by:

Removing the tiller bolt
Rocking the limb up and down (simulating going up and down in poundage)
Watching how the groove moves in relation to the now vacant tiller bolt hole
I was randomly looking at this a while back on other risers for separate reasons.
Left image: limb tilted upwards (reduced poundage). Right image: limb tilted downwads (increased poundage)
Regardless of what I do (ignoring photo parallax), observe there's always a gap between the tiller bolt hole and the limb butt groove.
This indicates no intereference with the tiller bolt throughout the expected travel.









For risers with non-pivoting tiller bolts (either just the head, or the entire bolt itself a la Gray), a critical dimension here is the distance between the tiller bolt and the dovetail receiver in the riser. And at least for the handful of risers from different brands I looked at, there is variation in this distance from brand to brand.


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Any word about the new riser?


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Braveheart said:


> Any word about the new riser?


Hopefully they are owning the problems above and went back to the drawing board and rethinking design


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

Any word on when this barebow riser may be coming out?


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Braveheart said:


> Any word on when this barebow riser may be coming out?


We have finished the preliminary design. We hope to get the prototype out next month, no promises at all. The preliminary specs are that the riser will weigh 1500g with no weights. Its cog is 30mm lower than the AIX and 3.5mm more Forward. The bow will have the same limb alignment mechanism. PS it looks very interesting and smooth.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Will there be issues like those pointed out about the aix? Has that issue been addressed with the pocket dimensions?


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

stick monkey said:


> Will there be issues like those pointed out about the aix? Has that issue been addressed with the pocket dimensions?


Extra clearance has been given in the limb pocket area.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

So we have finished and launched our product, I'm not allowed advertise it here due to the forum rules but you can go check it out in your own time.


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## Osiris155 (Jun 27, 2016)

GRAY ARCUM 25" Barebow Recurve Riser


The ARCUM is not a conventional riser and was not designed to be. The ARCUM riser represents a new shift in BAREBOW riser design. The riser has been designed to be out the box barebow ready, weighing in at 1550g no weight addition is required for an intermediate barebow archer as the center of...



www.gray-archery.com


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

I really like the innovation on riser design , but man, this riser triggers my trypophobia.... So if I were to get one, I'd have to cover up the holes that doesn't have weights attached to it.

Any plan on releasing 27" version?


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

That thing is hideous


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

That is not an appealing design. I know aesthetics don’t score points, but it reminds me of those old rubber coated picnic tables


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

stick monkey said:


> That thing is hideous


But you definitely know its a GRAY


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

FerrumVeritas said:


> That is not an appealing design. I know aesthetics don’t score points, but it reminds me of those old rubber coated picnic tables


Please post of pic of the table, I thought of it more as a grater.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

I too, would like to try this as a BB if it came in a 27inch version! 

Any plans for that?


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

fango0000 said:


> I too, would like to try this as a BB if it came in a 27inch version!
> 
> Any plans for that?


We are getting there, we first want to get the new AIX out and then the 27" on this then the 27" on the AIX


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## sky713 (Mar 3, 2020)

I think it looks kind of cool, something different. And it seems to support more setup customization than most other offerings.


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## cerelestecerele (Aug 5, 2019)

GRAY Archery said:


> Please post of pic of the table, I thought of it more as a grater.


This kind? Not sure if it's the same one FerrumVeritas imagined but the colour and shape are dead on. Too many hiding places for those tiny spiders that live on grassy fields and crawl up bowstands for my liking, I'd have to check every hole every end.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

I thought it looked weird at first, but I think I see potential for a BB riser with lots of customization and weight options. 

One thing that is underappreciated is the nice rounded machined edges and corners on this riser that I see in the picture. I've examined a lot of hoyt risers where there's burrs and machining marks and imperfections in the milling of the riser. Of course I will have to see these in person to really know if the machining is good but the pictures look promising.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

In some sense, it is a bit too late. There is nothing on the riser for the archer to take advantage of being able to put weight and vibration dampers above the grip.


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## GRAY Archery (Dec 1, 2016)

Hikari said:


> In some sense, it is a bit too late. There is nothing on the riser for the archer to take advantage of being able to put weight and vibration dampers above the grip.


We could agree, the riser was at a very late stage in the design when the rules changed. But, this does not change the natural weight distribution of the riser as it needs to be bottom heavy to counteract the recoil from the shot.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

GRAY Archery said:


> We could agree, the riser was at a very late stage in the design when the rules changed. But, this does not change the natural weight distribution of the riser as it needs to be bottom heavy to counteract the recoil from the shot.


I have changed to even distribution on my riser, rather than bottom heavy. I find the shot is more stable. With a bottom heavy riser, there is good balance in the hand, but that is simply the force of gravity on the riser. The shot forces are different. With weight at each limb pocket, the shot is more even on the distribution of those forces.

I am sure other archers like the bottom heavy riser.


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