# String Angle?



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

In the thread "What attributes of a bow help you most??? ", several mentioned string angle as one of the things that they looked for in a bow.

What angle contributes to better form / shooting?

Why?

What else is affected by string angle? peep height, draw length, anchor point.....

Thanks,
Allen


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I think there are "real" issues and "psychological" issues with string angle....with the later being no less "real" in this sport. 

When a string angle gets too low, I begin to duck my head or try to raise my anchor to gain the string contact I'm used to. I think I'll also start to err my DL on the long side seeking that eye-to-peep distance that I'm accustomed to. 

I've shot short bows for a while and always end up going back to a longer bow as I never really get comfortable...when the string angle isn't right I'm just always searching...never settled. 

I have never shot a bow that was "too long" so I can't really say if there is a point where I become uncomfortable with a string angle too upright. If there is one, it's not made in today's selection from any manufacturer.

I do think that the key here may be what I'm "used to". Shooters who didn't grow up with all bows being 38-40"+ may grab a 32-34, etc and feel right at home. They don't know any different where I personally feel that anything under 39 is short and 37 is my absolute minimum threshold.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

an angle that brings the peep as close as possible to your eye at normal anchor will come from longer ATA bows. so generally the longer ATA bows is what makes better string angles. the closer the peep is to your eye the easier t is to focus through the peep orifice and the smaller a peep you can effectively use,
there is some substance in the idea that peep size makes no difference, because of our natural concentricity of alignment when looking through successive holes, but the truth is that the smaller the peep, the less the potential for misaligment .


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

tmorelli, i'm on about the same page, there. I think most guys that shot years ago, when bows were 42 to 48 inches long have the same problem. I can't stand the short bows of today, most of the younger shooters don't even know this is an element to consider.
when I got my 101st, it was ...."wow, this thing is really short"....at 36-1/4 ATA !. I can't see myself using a bow much shorter.


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

It is what you are comfortable with and what anchors you are used to using. If you like to touch the string to your nose you are going to need a longer bow. Peep alignment is also easier and I believe it is easier to be more comfortable with longer range shooting with a longer ATA string angle. I asked a couple pros why they shoot the Pro Comp XL over the standard Pro Comp and they both said because of the string angle. They said both bows shot well and held well, they just felt more comfortable with the string angle of the XL.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there are certain elements of "proper archery form" and "bow fit", that don't exist in the area of "what you're used to or, "what is most comfortable for you".....this issue of string angle is one such matter....it falls squarely on the mechanical posture of "correct form and alignment from good bow fit", that produces a good shot. as such, it is one of those elements that should be observed by al shooters. as bows got shorter and shorter there are many areas that have been abandoned in interest of what is trendy and the general quality of good archer has suffered to the pont that when some mentions what is "proper archery" they are "old school", or "closed minded"


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ron w said:


> as bows got shorter and shorter there are many areas that have been abandoned in interest of what is trendy and the general quality of good archer has suffered to the pont that when some mentions what is "proper archery" they are "old school", or "closed minded"


Hey, I'm still kind of new to this sport, but am proud to say I was fortunate to be brought up "old school".... :wink:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

String angle, brain bender. It goes; "Stand up straight, bow comes to you, not you to the bow." Yeah, in most instances that tip of the nose stuff goes out the door. My TX4 Pearson at 33 1/2", never dawned on me that my nose didn't touch the string. Shot great...still don't like short bows though. 
"Tricks," ball knots or different size kisser buttons can give that wanted "feel" of nose to the string.

And this "tip of the nose" thing. It's a check point, the nose touches, feels, it's not something to lean into. Bow strings are flimsy even at full. Hold your bow at full and see how far you can twist the riser side to side - It's be a bunch.
I don't suggest anyone try doing what the pictures shows. Now that's pretty flimsy....


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

If you look at pictures of all the top target shooters, you will notice that there are very few who shoot a bow that gives them a string angle sharper than 90 degrees at full draw.

It's not only head angle/anchor issue, it has to do with the stability of the bow, as Sonny showed in the picture above. The flatter the angle, the more stable the string at full draw and the less it will have a tendency to deviate from it's proper path.

Easy to demo in person, not so much in text. But picture a drawn longbow. Pretty flat string angle, and the string wants to keep in the proper plane. It's tough to torque the grip or twist the string. Now picture a drawn slingshot. Very sharp angle, incredibly easy to torque. Not very accurate at all.

Not sure of the physics, but 90 degrees seems to be the point where stability becomes an issue. Flatter angles would be better, but then it's a tradeoff between slow arrows speed and sheer bulk of the bow vs the increased stability.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I had a 40" ATA and now the new bow have 37.5" ATA, toke me a god months or so to get used to it, strip it down several times looking for a best powerstroke as many times tweak the cables/string I had to move the peep around....finally ended up with 57.8% (60) letoff = 24.6 lbs holding weight and my release/elbow got to a point I will stop looking further.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

Heres what i think about this issue

String angle is relevent to draw length. At some draw length all bows will have the same string angle. 

DL 24-26", 32-35"and up A/A bows can fit good 

Dl 26-28", 35-37" and up A/A bows can fit good

Dl 28-29.5", 37" and up A/A bows fit good

Dl 29.5" and up 40" and up A/A fit good

Like everything in archery, what ever you say will not work, someone will eventually beat you doing just what you said wouldnt work. 

Blue X


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Face shape and arm to shoulder geometry is going to be a factor as well. I have to shoot very short d-loops and 37" is borderline with a 28.25" DL. This is likely partly because my face is quite tall and arms quite short. An under-chin anchor would require a VERY long bow to get any reference on my nose, side of the jaw is just working.
Next bow I look for will be +40".

-Grant


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

part of the dynamic physics of short bow geometry is that the increased included angle from short ATA length, produces increased initial forward acceleration of the arrow. it is partially where the short bows get their speed from.
one of the downfalls of this is that the angle moves the peep away from your eye and necessitates using a larger peep in order to focus through it. as you loose this contact of nose on string, you increase the potential for slight misalignment of the concentric sight through the larger peep orifice, thus making form and diligence to head canting and dipping, more important. when an archer has a well developed shot process, as the pros do, they can shoot well in this "unsupported" condition. the problem is that most newer shooters, who haven't developed the form to the same level yet, might have a hard time without the anchor contact references that a longer ATA bow provides....hence, all the problems with head canting and dipping from newer shooters.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that picture is bunch of BS. try to do that with a short bow at 60 or 70 lbs and good a good firm wall.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> that picture is bunch of BS. try to do that with a short bow at 60 or 70 lbs and good a good firm wall.


Ron, the picture is show just how flimsy/movable the bow string is. So it isn't BS. Engage brain. I noted not to try it. I also noted to hold your bow at full and see how much you twist the riser side to side. People want nose contact and think they have to push into the bow string. Push on the bow string and you have torque..... Torque the riser enough and you'll have a derailment letting down.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

So, if I understand string angle,

- String angle is a function of draw length, Length of bow (out to out of cams at full draw) and Brace Height. I think that Greg Poole posted a formula for this a few years ago.

- When the bow is at your DL, you want your nose on the string but as little face contact with the string as possible and your head in the best position for balance.

It seems like this would be difficult to achieve without an adjustable ATA bow.  I guess experience with setting up bows would give you an idea of the ATA that is best for each individual.

Do you think string angle is as important as draw length when setting up a bow for ultimate consistency?

Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Them Tube videos. Tip of the nose, corner of the mouth and whatever. T-bone. Watched one of T-Bone's Tip of the nose/corner of the mouth videos. He had this short person for the demonstration. Short people, sit on the curb and swinging their feet, run under a truck without ducking. Average height of white U.S. male, 5 foot 9+ inches.

Like Blue X note; "Like everything in archery, what ever you say will not work, someone will eventually beat you doing just what you said wouldn't work."

Set up this shorty Hoyt Selena for this woman. If she'd been a little taller I'd called her Smurfette. 22" draw or 23". Me, right at 6 foot. Her husband near 6 foot 3. This other guy, big enough to go bear hunting with a switch, easily 6 foot 2, 375+ pounds, old man 5 foot 8. We anchored as normal, bent bow arm to fit her short draw length. Our noses? Somewhere in space. We guys murdered the X ring like it was nothing. Her draw weight, 37 pounds.
Another man, short due to numerous back injuries, but still has a 30+ draw. His nose is not half the honker I have. He can't touch his nose to the string, period, even with 38" ata bows. Shoots one of those almost too short bows, 35" ata. And then he's one of the better shooters in my area and consistent 300 Indoor shooter.

Corner of the mouth? Tell it to Tim Gillingham or Steve Boylan.... I like Tim, he has this GRRRRR attitude look when aiming


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I brought it up a few years ago - I felt string angle would be a good measurement for Manufacturers to incorporate.

We all know about ATA, but with the size of the cams it doesnt exactly equate to a lesser or greater string angle.

Say a 32 inch bow with 2 inches of cam beyond the axle or a 32 inch ATA bow with 4 inches of cam beyond the axle.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

stringangles don't mean a whole lot, other than where the angle puts the pep in relation to your eye. longer ata will be closer, shorter ATA will be farther ..from your eye. the further the [eep is from your eye, the bigger a peep you'll need to focus through. 
from this...closer to your eye s better for consistent and accurate aiming and closer to your eye comes from a longer ATA bow. draw length, of course has some input at any ATA but it is a minor element because for all but the very extreme ends of the spectrum,it is proportional to your physical size.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sonny....
ok,... so what,.... the string is very flexible,... the pic has no application to the issue. proper nose contact is just enough that you know it's there....pretty elementary form issue.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> sonny....
> ok,... so what,.... the string is very flexible,... the pic has no application to the issue. proper nose contact is just enough that you know it's there....pretty elementary form issue.


And people forget, want too much nose contact, so I noted a reminder; "And this "tip of the nose" thing. It's a check point, the nose touches, feels, it's not something to lean into."


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

I agree that you should never change your form to touch our nose, but I do not buy bows with string angles that will not allow me to touch my nose at draw either. Consistency is everything and if I can use one more point of contact to increase my consistency I will do it.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ron w said:


> sonny.... ok,... so what,.... the string is very flexible,... the pic has no application to the issue. proper nose contact is just enough that you know it's there....pretty elementary form issue.


Actually it does in a way. If you have to lean your face forward to jam your nose into the string, you're likely also creating enough pressure with your face to deform the string and ultimately alter your arrow's POI once it is shot. 

Much better, knowing the string is so flexible when at full draw, to maintain just the lightest of contacts when the angle allows you to touch your nose to the string or accept the fact that if it does not, you'll simply have to rely more heavily on your other repeatable anchors.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as I said, proper form is to just feel, or know that the string is in contact with the tip of your nose. 
with most of the shorter bows we see today, nose contact is almost impossible without either dipping your head, which makes problems with sight alignment or anchoring back by your ear, which makes problems with execution tensions. there simply is nothing good about the short bows.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> as I said, proper form is to just feel, or know that the string is in contact with the tip of your nose.
> with most of the shorter bows we see today, nose contact is almost impossible without either dipping your head, which makes problems with sight alignment or anchoring back by your ear, which makes problems with execution tensions.* there simply is nothing good about the short bows*.


Short bows, another subject. No one has more objections to a short ata bow than me, but them dang critters can shoot. I want to say limited in some manner...perhaps distance, 1/4 mile or so or the time of day or if a chance of rain the second Tuesday of next week. 

I noted of my Pearson TX4, 33 1/2" ata, in post #8; "never dawned on me that *my nose didn't touch the string*. Shot great..." Maybe I should have reworded it, like; "I didn't give a [profanity] that the string didn't touch my nose. I did what I was supposed to, stand up straight, brought the bow to me. 
I also noted of the "T-Bone videos" that were running rampant...maybe still are. That crap of tip of the nose, corner of the mouth is not a "fit all."


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## northern rednek (Oct 24, 2008)

I find with a shorter bow if I have to tilt my head to make contact with the string my back tension suffers. Last year I had a 35 inch ata bow for 3d and my scores suffered. I went back to my old 37 and scores climbed. They were exact same draw but I had to move my head slightly to make contact. I'm going to try a bit longer ata because I think I would benefit even more.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Adding string angle to the posted "specs" is pointless- the small percentage that understand what it is and why is matters don't bother with the posted spec anyway- they know what they need/want in a platform to reach their level of proformance. Greg's formila is about getting into the correct sized ata to maximize forgiveness than anything else; get into the proper ata and string angle will be more of less the same across the board. 

String angle isn't something I put much thought into- I won't shoot under 37" ata. At that I have a decent string angle for face fit and getting a consistent anchor with a good peep to nock distance.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

This kind of got hammered home today.
I have been shooting what some consider a long ATA bow (Strother Moxie...just shy of 38" ATA)
Today I decided to try some new things as I have been having an issue with holding the bow and getting some shaking.
Turns out I have been bending my draw arm to bring the bow closer to my face so my string could touch my nose. Problem of course was now I was shooting an excessively bent bow arm. This also made me hold my hinge differently...more of a balled up hand (Think Erika Jones) than a more relaxed, flat hand. This put more string into my face, and made finishing the shot properly very difficult.
I finally decided to just draw the bow the way I have all my other bows, and not worry about the string on the nose thing. Sure enough, I started shooting better....not very consistent as I ended up changing how my bow arm sits, how I hold my release, and even how I fire the release.
Even with a cam design that moves the string away from the axle centers at full draw, I think the parallel limbs let the axles move too close together at full draw. I see NO problem accuracy wise from a parallel limb bow...but it will need even MORE ATA to start with.
Worst bit is for me....with a 31.5" draw, there are VERY few bows that go over 40" ATA and do that draw length.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

N7709K said:


> getting a consistent anchor with a good peep to nock distance.


And this is the gold nugget for this debate... It does not matter one iota if your nose touches the string or not, as long as your other anchor(s) are consistent, repeatable, and you can _achieve an adequate peep-to-nock distance_. This is a very important factor that is often either minimized or overlooked entirely. Thanks, Jacob!!


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

i don't fully agree that in practical applications having your string not come to your nose doesn't sway your scores. when you have the light string contact it helps keep alignment correct; when the string is off the nose its harder to keep alignment on the sight plane. Excessive contact isn't good, but no contact can cause issues. Facial structure will dictate more how the string fits your face and the string angle that gives the best fit that DL will; but if DL is incorrect having a perfect string angle doesn't do a lick of good. 

with all correctly fit target rigs there will be contact; illfit setups or running short ATA parallel limbed "hunting" rigs brings about the same anchor on the face with no string contact to the nose. I shoot a 29.75ish DL, i have the same anchor on a 38" parallel(actually slightly past parallel) rig as i do with my PCE XL that is running almost stock limb angle- string angle isn't the same, but through slightly different dl's, peep heights, and loop lengths i keep the same anchor.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I can't fully agree with that either. that nose contact, provided it is just "contact", sets your head in the same attitude for each shot. even though you might see through the peep, head attitude inconsistencies will affect your POI and the shorter the bow, the larger the peep needs to be, so the more important a consistent head attitude is. a good anchor,... by itself...., is not enough. if it were, there would be no reason to have peeps as small as 3/64th inch, or as big as 5/16". the diameter is not JUST for clearing up a magnified lens.
if you don't believe this, try to hammer the X-ring, consistently on a vegas face with a 1/4" or 5/16ths" peep.


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