# ASA and IBO - whats the difference?



## powerpoint9 (Jul 6, 2007)

Is membership with one an advantage over the other?

Or join both to have opportunities?


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## Hoyt Mania (Sep 3, 2003)

Join both. But if you want to have more fun go to more of the ASA. But if you like to wait a lot to shoot your targets and like to walk a long ways go to more of the IBO.


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## powerpoint9 (Jul 6, 2007)

Thanks... for the information...


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

The ASA is a privately owned organization based on 3-D archery tournaments and the promotion of 3-D as a competitive sport. (At least in my opinion) The well defined format is among the easiest to follow and the courses are laid out based on “out and back” with the same targets being shot each tournament. With the ASA you know exactly what to expect and the management is top notch. 

The IBO is a not for profit organization based on expanding and promoting the hunting experience… It sponsors somewhat loosely managed tournaments which are held by individual clubs across the country and usually result in long waits and marathon like walks to ranges and between targets. In the tournament I’ve attended there is little to no control of the competition and no organization whatsoever. 

I usually try not to make negative comments about equipment or organizations, but the IBO in my opinion doesn’t have control of its tournaments and I choose not to attend another until they do.


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## powerpoint9 (Jul 6, 2007)

JAVI said:


> The ASA is a privately owned organization based on 3-D archery tournaments and the promotion of 3-D as a competitive sport. (At least in my opinion) The well defined format is among the easiest to follow and the courses are laid out based on “out and back” with the same targets being shot each tournament. With the ASA you know exactly what to expect and the management is top notch.
> 
> The IBO is a not for profit organization based on expanding and promoting the hunting experience… It sponsors somewhat loosely managed tournaments which are held by individual clubs across the country and usually result in long waits and marathon like walks to ranges and between targets. In the tournament I’ve attended there is little to no control of the competition and no organization whatsoever.
> 
> I usually try not to make negative comments about equipment or organizations, but the IBO in my opinion doesn’t have control of its tournaments and I choose not to attend another until they do.



I thank you for saving me $$$$$$$$!


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## baylward (Aug 18, 2003)

I don' know where you guy's have shoot IBO events at but the one that I have attened the walk is not that bad.


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## Hoyt Mania (Sep 3, 2003)

Bedford for one. I aslo agree with Javi. As far money goes the shooters don't make any money for shooting well. But the clubs hosting the events get paid quite well.


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## baylward (Aug 18, 2003)

I don't think that we shoud bash IBO, ASA, NFAA, or NAA they all do thier part to grow the sport of archery.


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## Dead Center (Dec 24, 2006)

I would like to see some ASA shoots further north.


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Asa*

There was one in Michigan, but didn't keep it because it was to far from the other ones. It was nice when it was here.

Jim


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## Slice (Jul 20, 2005)

Bigjim67 said:


> There was one in Michigan, but didn't keep it because it was to far from the other ones. It was nice when it was here.
> 
> Jim


There is an ASA shoot this weekend (01/25 -01/27) in Grand Rapids at the Delta Plex. It is offering the Outlaw Class to allow those who shoot over 280 fps to participate.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2008)

> I don't think that we shoud bash IBO, ASA, NFAA, or NAA they all do thier part to grow the sport of archery.


If an organization is not run correctly, WE need to be the ones to point it out. I am new to this, but I have heard about IBO not checking equipment. Rules are rules. If they are bad change them, don't let them slide.


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## PodunkArcher (Jun 1, 2005)

I personally love the IBO. I like the format and the non speed restriction of 280. The clubs up my way do a great job setting up and putting on these shoots. Yes the courses are drawn out but you know what thats why I'm there to enjoy the outdoors. I'm in no hurry to go anywhere. I nice hike certainly isn't a bad thing for some of us. I cannot attest to an ASA shoot since I live in Washington. My buddy from Flordia says that they are great. I don't doubt that. But don't base an entire organization because of a long walk and acouple bad shoots.


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## baylward (Aug 18, 2003)

Heavyhaul said:


> If an organization is not run correctly, WE need to be the ones to point it out. I am new to this, but I have heard about IBO not checking equipment. Rules are rules. If they are bad change them, don't let them slide.


They do check the equipment I hae seen it done to guys in my group. There is no way that at a large shoot like the National Triple Crown or the Worlds that you can check every person equipment that would be a full time job for alot of people. On the local level most of the clubs don't have enough people running a shoot to check hundred shooters bows. If you attend a you shoot and have questions about some ones bows ask then the people running the shoot to check the equipment. There has to be some policing by the shooters.


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Ibo*

The IBO Checks equipment, but only if you shoot a certain score. Why check everyones score, if they're not in contention.


-Jim


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

Hoyt Mania said:


> Bedford for one. I aslo agree with Javi. As far money goes the shooters don't make any money for shooting well. But the clubs hosting the events get paid quite well.


Real classy there Maniac. Your the 2nd ASA representative I've seen in the last week bashing the IBO. Why not just say something nice about the ASA instead?


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

We don't have to worry about choosing one here in Texas...IBO was politely asked to not come back, and I haven't seen a club advertise either an IBO qualifier or the using of IBO rules...Texas has gone over to the Dark Side and welcomed ASA with open arms...you'll be hard pressed to even FIND an IBO shoot in Texas this year!


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## rustyfence (Aug 3, 2006)

Bowtechie said:


> Real classy there Maniac. Your the 2nd ASA representative I've seen in the last week bashing the IBO. Why not just say something nice about the ASA instead?


I don't see that as bashing at all, just speaking the truth. 

He did say something nice about ASA, that they pay their shooters. He just stated facts when speaking of IBO paying clubs not shooters. 

Big difference to me, is wait time at targets. I do not want to spend 16-20 hours shooting a course. I want to spend 4-6 hours shooting the course. ASA is hands and fists above the IBO when it comes to which one I would rather shoot. I am not going to boycot IBO, I apprciate what they do, but if I had an ASA shoot, and an IBO shoot the same weekend, I would go to the ASA shoot everytime.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

rustyfence said:


> I don't see that as bashing at all, just speaking the truth.
> 
> He did say something nice about ASA, that they pay their shooters. He just stated facts when speaking of IBO paying clubs not shooters.
> 
> Big difference to me, is wait time at targets. I do not want to spend 16-20 hours shooting a course. I want to spend 4-6 hours shooting the course. ASA is hands and fists above the IBO when it comes to which one I would rather shoot. I am not going to boycot IBO, I apprciate what they do, but if I had an ASA shoot, and an IBO shoot the same weekend, I would go to the ASA shoot everytime.



You better go back and read his post again there with open eyes this time.

He said nothing about ASA paying their shooters but he did say the IBO doesn't pay there shooters anything. That is an outright lie and if you want to try and say that's not a bash you're in the same boat.


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## Northforker (Oct 11, 2004)

JAVI said:


> The ASA is a privately owned organization based on 3-D archery tournaments and the promotion of 3-D as a competitive sport. (At least in my opinion) The well defined format is among the easiest to follow and the courses are laid out based on “out and back” with the same targets being shot each tournament. With the ASA you know exactly what to expect and the management is top notch.
> 
> The IBO is a not for profit organization based on expanding and promoting the hunting experience… It sponsors somewhat loosely managed tournaments which are held by individual clubs across the country and usually result in long waits and marathon like walks to ranges and between targets. In the tournament I’ve attended there is little to no control of the competition and no organization whatsoever.
> 
> I usually try not to make negative comments about equipment or organizations, but the IBO in my opinion doesn’t have control of its tournaments and I choose not to attend another until they do.


Very well said +1


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## DRFrance (Feb 4, 2006)

*Like them both*

Jumping into a fire usually isn't my thing, but here it goes:

I like both organizations for their different disciplines and unique approaches to archery.

I even set up 2 bows separately for each. One 280 which I shoot most of the time and one at 5 gr./lb. smokin' about 320 fps plus. I kind of enjoy the variety and extra opportunities to shoot and experiment. 

Both organizations have helped me throughout the years become a better competitor, archer, and a more ethical hunter.

I really don't see a good reason why we all can't get along and go with the established formats of 2 different archery games. They are just a game.


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## PodunkArcher (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm with DR on this if one person likes poker and thinks blackjack is for suckers I'm not gonna go over to the blackjack tables and call everyone nuts for "buckin the tiger cause the odds are all on the house". I'm just gonna go play my game. Then at the buffet we can all be friends.


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Organizations*

Well put Mr France, I love to shoot 3-ds no matter who puts them out to shoot.

-Jim


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## jhubbdo (Jun 9, 2006)

I will be shooting only ASA this year because, as Davik said, there are no IBO shoots in Texas anymore. I have never shot ASA before and I am really looking forward to it, but are the targets set-up differently than at IBO shoots? And what do you mean about long wait times at IBO shoots versus ASA shoots? Not stiring the pot, just want more info. 

My IBO experience has been extremely positive and fun. I am definitely a better shooter because of the IBO tournaments I have attended, and I have had my equipment checked several times because I shot well enough to place:wink:

Jhubbdo


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

To generally answer your question jhub. 
Most locations that shoot ASA events (qualifiers) PRO/AM (always) are ran in a shot gun format. What this translates to: IS that each target has a group of people stationed to start with. for example: you start on target 5 you will end on target 4.

Generally, IBO events are ran on a sign up and start last time for someone to start the range. With everyone starting at target 1. Like golf tee times. 

Another thing, is about ASA events: ASA his added the 14 ring upper right hand corner of the 8 ring. This can be a risky move but also rewarding if you execute the shot and hit it. 

We as well have two 12 rings. the low 12 and the new upper 12. The upper 12 on the PRO/AM level is used on the marked distance. and/or second day of shooting. 



I do know that the tee time / shotgun start is what has been most accustom to the general area of where events being held/shot. 

THIS IS NOT A BASHING just for the record.


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## big scores (Jan 31, 2005)

Hoyt Mania said:


> Bedford for one. I aslo agree with Javi. As far money goes the shooters don't make any money for shooting well. But the clubs hosting the events get paid quite well.





Bowtechie said:


> You better go back and read his post again there with open eyes this time.
> 
> He said nothing about ASA paying their shooters but he did say the IBO doesn't pay there shooters anything. That is an outright lie and if you want to try and say that's not a bash you're in the same boat.


Honestly, I have heard nothing good about the IBO payouts at national tournaments! The ASA posts payout and where the $ goes to! 
I have yet to see that from the IBO.
I know several shooters who have won or placed in the top 3 at a IBO National tournanemt. And what can I say, $150 for first in MBO, and an ASA payout of an equal class would be 5 times as much!
I know what you are saying Hoyt Mania, that the shooters at an IBO shoot make peanuts for shooting well, and the host club gets enough $ to run for the whole year without having any other shoot! 

Ever wonder why the ASA is growing and the IBO isn't?


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

big scores said:


> Ever wonder why the ASA is growing and the IBO isn't?


Lets see some figures to support your claim.

At least the IBO has the guts to have shoots in the south. How many shoots does the ASA have in the north?


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## Avalon (Jul 23, 2007)

I love 3d no matter who puts it on. I have become a big fan of the 
ASA because of their family freindly, well run events. I don't care what the initials are, if its organized well and it has anything to do with 3d, I'm there.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

AVALON said:


> I love 3d no matter who puts it on.



This is the way I feel. If the ASA had shoots closer to home I would be there.

What I get tired of hearing is all the "my shoots are better then your shoots" or a negative comment about the "other" organization. If you can't grow an organization on positive attributes it's not a good growth IMO.


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

I have shot both organizations for the past few years and I must say I like the ASA better, hands down. They are much better managed and the pay outs are much better. I now only shoot ASA. I think the last straw was when I found out that the IBO was taking money out of the hunter class and giving it to the Pro shooters winnings. (This came from a former IBO rep) Basically saying that we don't think you(HC) shooters deserve to be paid. All they get is a 50$ certificate for winning. But yet it is one of the biggest classes. With the long lines, long waits and allowing buddies to shoot together I decided to stop shooting IBO. 
The ASA shoots have more things going on at each shoot like the Pro-AM, Simms Known distance and the long shot all of which you can win money. Its like getting to go to multiple tournaments in one.


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## bowpro (May 31, 2002)

Your ex-reps information is not the truth,which in turn makes it something that is not true or a ---!
NO money from any class is placed in the purse for any other class. Your gift certificate information is also incorrect.
If you would like, give the office a call and they will gladly explain what is the truth. If you are ever at a national level event they will gladly show you how it works. 
If an ex-IBO rep told you this little fairytale, who is that person and what is their motivation in telling you something that is not the truth? 
You live sort of in the middle between Burley Hall and the Girt's how about if you ask one or more of them if they would get you the info? They know who to call and how to get the answers for you.

In looking back at the results it has been a while since you shot in an IBO Hunter Class. I can find your name in an AHC, MBR,and MBO classes, but not in one of the HC's. At least going back to 05. Is this a class that you were thinking about shooting?


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## kemosabi (Jan 14, 2008)

They are both first class operations.the difference is one uses 5 grain per pound weight min. on arrows and the other is cannot shoot over 288 fps..[asa]

Ibo you can shoot as fast as you want as long as your 5 grain per Pound [pull]
vs arrow weight...If you shoot 50 lbs you need atleast 250 grain of arrow to be legal..ASA is no faster than 288 fps,and they w/have a chrono somewheres on the course to check it..Thats the major differences that i worry about when i shoot.I do not care what it is,as long as i have somewheres to shoot...LOL..Over the years they have both done a whole bunch for the archery community...I find you loose a lil bit of the bows forgiveness when you venture to far over 288 anyways.....Its not to bad today w/the 80% let-off.back in the day we were shooting 50-60% let-off it was more of a issue...
if you join them both and shoot both organizations tourneys i believe you get a lil cut on the shooting fee[entry] for members vs non-members.....
Hope this helps you..


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## hoytsalot (Aug 14, 2006)

the one differance that i know of is the ibo puts alot of money into the rights of the hunters, unlike asa which is ran as a business. I myself would rather see my hunting rights protected instead of money in pocket. lets face it how many amateurs are planning on making a living shooting archery? most of us are doing it to have fun and keep our hunting skills sharp! that is what the ibo is based on in my opinion.


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

The payouts must have just changed then because when a buddy of mine won a national triple crown in HC a few years back he got a $50 gift certificate, a plaque and a belt buckle. My question is, why not pay out in HC the same as the other classes. After all, this is one of the most popular classes. 
Another buddy and I shot AHC the first year it was put in and he won a triple crown. The IBO said that there was going to be a plaque given for this class but after the shoot was done they decided not to give one. My buddy was pissed but calmly tried to talk to Ken about it. It fell on deaf ears. He said if you don't like it, pay your $25 and file a protest. 
As far as the information I got on the purse money being transfered between classes, I will send you a PM.


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

PodunkArcher said:


> I'm with DR on this if one person likes poker and thinks blackjack is for suckers I'm not gonna go over to the blackjack tables and call everyone nuts for "buckin the tiger cause the odds are all on the house". I'm just gonna go play my game. Then at the buffet we can all be friends.


just have to add that its the poker players that eat at the buffet, the blackjack players eat at the top restaurants:wink:
sorry for OT


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## powerpoint9 (Jul 6, 2007)

I got more than what I asked for when I started this thread in January. I'm glad to know all I know from everyones experience. Now I can go in with both eyes open, understanding things ahead of time that may have surprised or disappointed me.

As you can see beside my name I've joined the ASA. WHY? Because the club nearest my home has a wonderful 3D range plus a great archery course. If I find the IBO having something that I can take my three sons to and have fun and learn then we'll join that also. 

I can tell you from being a part of large national companies and national organizations that in one city/state it may be great while somewhere else it's horrible. Why? BECAUSE PEOPLE MAKE THE DIFFERENCE!


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*Just great...*



Bowtechie said:


> Real classy there Maniac. Your the 2nd ASA representative I've seen in the last week bashing the IBO. Why not just say something nice about the ASA instead?


Good point! I've heard people in both organizations bash the other - or NFAA Etc. That crap hurts archery. 
On the other hand the organizations have a responsibility to run safe well thought out tournaments. I've been to shoots in both organizations that are dangerous and not well thought out.
I'd like to see the folks that run 'the show' (organizations' management) address 'customer feedback' more appropriately. They also need to look at how they market the sport. 
I also think that all of them need to work together to promote archery as a number 1 priority rather than their own agenda. I want to believe that things are improving. I just havn't see it yet. I'll keep hoping!


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## dgirt (Jul 1, 2003)

I have shot them both. They both the same to me. It's real simple, If you go to shoot I plan on being there all weekend. 
Simple procedure.
A. sign up
B. get in your group
C. judge yardage
D. shoot bow 
E get done go home and HAVE TO GO TO WORK ON MONDAY


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## Supershark (Dec 14, 2004)

Slice said:


> There is an ASA shoot this weekend (01/25 -01/27) in Grand Rapids at the Delta Plex. It is offering the Outlaw Class to allow those who shoot over 280 fps to participate.


Why would it be called the outlaw class for that?  Becuase someone shoots their bow at its potential?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Supershark said:


> Why would it be called the outlaw class for that?  Becuase someone shoots their bow at its potential?


NO because it's not a ASA sanctioned class. The class is a suggested class to be used by those from Michigan, as they are the only ones using this on their federation qualifier shoots. 

If you would like any more info, on this. Best would be to ask Vince (kentarms) about the formentioned class to get all information pertaining to it.


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

JB Archer said:


> The payouts must have just changed then because when a buddy of mine won a national triple crown in HC a few years back he got a $50 gift certificate, a plaque and a belt buckle. My question is, why not pay out in HC the same as the other classes. After all, this is one of the most popular classes.
> Another buddy and I shot AHC the first year it was put in and he won a triple crown. The IBO said that there was going to be a plaque given for this class but after the shoot was done they decided not to give one. My buddy was pissed but calmly tried to talk to Ken about it. It fell on deaf ears. He said if you don't like it, pay your $25 and file a protest.
> As far as the information I got on the purse money being transfered between classes, I will send you a PM.


You are correct... no money is given out to the HC class either indoor or outdoor..... if you goto all 3 events for the national triple crown, you will get a belt buckle if u are in the top 3.... Usually if you place in the top 10, you will get a plaque... and that is it. No gift certs for how you place or ANY type of money pay back. A random draw of gift certs is given @ the end of the World Championship for those who attend the world championship. This also needs changed, how about the shooters from the HC that went to all 3, plus the World Championship, shouldn't their odds be greater on winning a cert than someone else?? Like a weighted lottery?? 

Now bowpro..... the ibo is very disorganized...... buddies shooting together... range officials not caring ..... equipment not being checked correctly.... with the IBO... you always have to have an ambulance around.... to help honest shooters get brought back to life after getting pencil whipped by shooters shooting with their buddies....


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## Rush (May 16, 2005)

I normally won't weigh in on a conversation like this one, but here we go. For one, I completely agree with DRFrance. He is absolutely right.

Also, I think the hunter class was designed to get the more average archer out shooting in these tournaments. There was no payback, so better shooters wouldn't drop back to collect on the money, thus putting the average archer right back where he was.

The worst thing to happen to archery was paying back to the ametuer shooter IMO. You go to these shoots, you have a good time, you shoot your bow (yeah you could be at work instead), you have a good weekend, and you go home. The reason for these shoots is not to say one is better than the other, it is to promote the sport of archery. We want archery to grow, our hunting rights to stay, and something we all love to do to be around. That is why they are here! It shouldn't be how much money I can make. If it concerns you that much, then sign up and shoot Semi-Pro or Pro.

I've shot in booth, and I really like both. Each has it's own element. The ASA has the lower (and now upper 12) to shoot, also a 14. That give you a mental challenge. The IBO has a lot of walking (although it isn't that bad), which is suppose to be healthy for you, and is physically and mentally grueling. I've been checked in both, and I have not been checked in both. They have both done a great job promoting and helping the sport, as have all the organizations. 

My thought is, just enjoy shooting your bow because you never know what will happen tomorrow. Trust me, there is a whole lot worse things that can happen out there other than not getting paid very much!


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

Do I have to be a professional gambler to go to Vegas and want to win money. Would you go just to have fun or would you go to have fun and try to win money? There is something about the chance to go on a trip, do something that you enjoy and have a chance to have it paid for by winning money that makes it more attractive. Shooting for money just adds to the game. Do you think that if there was no money to be won in all these poker tournaments going on, that all these amature players would be plopping down their hard earned money to play just for the fun of it. I think not. I know archery is not poker but what motivates people to compete in these things are alike.
This is called competative archery. We go to see how good we are compared to other shooters. We want to know that when money and status is on the line we can perform, including when we shoot in HC on the National and World level.
If there is a problem with shooters moving to different classes to try and win, try to come up with ways to make other classes more desirable to balance things out.
The ASA is seeing this and I think is doing an awesome job with it.


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

*.*



Davik said:


> We don't have to worry about choosing one here in Texas...IBO was politely asked to not come back, and I haven't seen a club advertise either an IBO qualifier or the using of IBO rules...Texas has gone over to the Dark Side and welcomed ASA with open arms...you'll be hard pressed to even FIND an IBO shoot in Texas this year!



As a Texas shooter, I am happy to hear that. Finaly!

2003 & IBO put me out of archery for about 3 years.... after the farce the Windy Nationals and the "close the range" Storm that never developed World Championships in 03.

It wasn't so much the "storm"(which again NEVER happened) but the total lack of fair contigency plan or makeup shoot. For everyone affected.

I paid....ahem, lost hard earned $$ to compete in that event, and was not given the opportunity to do so. 

Hey Ken, did anyone ever get refunds???

That was certainly my last IBO sponsored event.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Oh well here I go. The IBO vs ASA fight is one I have been in since the mid 
90's. Here is what I find to be the main differences for ME. 1) IBO is a not for profit organization, ASA is a business owned by an individual. 2) ASA has a speed limit that allows a more level playing field(yardage estimation and shot making ability not speed determine a winner). 3) Tournament organization-IBO tournaments are run by the Host club, they set the targets,run the shoots and interpret the rules. ASA ProAms are run by the ASA staff, same folks set targets, run the shoot and interpret the rules at every shoot. 4) Entry fee and payback- In the IBO National Triple Crown I pay a $50 entry and have a 20% payback with the Host club keeping 68% of my entry. At an ASA ProAm I pay a $30 entry and have a 70% payback. 5)Targets-

both organizations shoot McKenzie targets. The IBO shoots the center as 11 and the ASA has the off set 12's and the 14. In IBO there is more target variety but I could live without ever shooting another turkey or alligator.

This is what I see as the differences in the two organizations. The biggest for me being the entry fee/payback. I shoot few IBO shoots because of this. This past weekend I won the ASA ProAm in Florida I won more money with less entry than the either of the shooters who win (Tradtional) Bedford and Erie conbined regardless of the number of shooters(we had 13 in Florida, Bedford will have 30ish). I feel the IBO needs to reward the shooters more and Host clubs less. Yes I know what it takes to hold a tournament. Let us look at the other ways the HOSTS are/could be making money-Parking( you are charged to park at every IBO TC), vendor space(vendors are charged for their booth space), target sales(targets are sold at every IBO TC), food and beverage sales(there is food and drinks sold at every shoot).

What I have said about the IBO and ASA is only about the national events. Obviously IBO World qualifiers and ASA Federation are run somewhat differently. For those who host the qualifiers and the federations thank you for your time and effort.


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## longbowdude (Jun 9, 2005)

ASA has a dress code. If they want to make me dress up like some yuppie golfer I think I would rather just shoot FITA.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

ASA dress code involves wearing a collared shirt. If a collared shirt makes you feel like a yuppie golfer I feel for ya. As for myself it is nice to shooters looking good not looking like they just fell off the tater truck. JMHO


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## longbowdude (Jun 9, 2005)

Yep pretty much. I dont own a one and am not going to shoot in something uncomfortable and ugly and hot as a collared golf shirt. I could care less how somebody looks. It aint a beauty pagent.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Well if you don't shoot good at least you look good. Anyway doesn't have to be a golf shirt a polo from Wallyworld works just fine.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2008)

ASA great when owned by Wayne Pearson, compare the payouts.....in all classes...not even similiar.

I do admit the IBO payouts could be better...

IBO host clubs do make some money....so what?......Is that not the goal of all the archery clubs that host a club/local/state shoot ?

I would like to see some changes in location for the National Triple Crown Events, but thats not going to stop me from attending.

IBO does support bowhunting...spend a lot of $$$ each year defending that right/privilage.

You can shoot Fri, Sat and Sun (done by 1 pm) I feel that gives more opportunities for people to attend....they can choose when to arrive, when to shoot, and get back home/work...

Rules are in Black and white...ASA its written but not always followed consistantly...


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Master Yoda you are correct that IBO spends money to defend bowhunting. However, that money is not raised by the tournament entrys. It is raised by shooting the bowhunter defense range.


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

Yoda, What were the pay outs back then?


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Back in the Pearson days Miller Brewing Company was a title sponser and they kicked in mega bucks. The SOY in Open Pro used to get $25 or $50K I don't remember which. If you shot ASA in the Pearson days(in the class that I shot) 1st paid $250, 2nd $150 & 3rd $100. Yes the money is a little lower now but I don't want to see Wayne or Danny back.


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## P_Shooter (Jul 26, 2005)

The Outlaws Class, 

I think that Vince came up with a great Idea to get IBO shooters to go to ASA shoots in Michigan, I shot the Indoor ASA and there was alot of poeple in the Outlaw class that said that they wouldn't have shot becuase they were over 288fps. Now a guy (or girl) can run one set up and not have to change out sights and arrows just to go to a shoot. I think everybody wants to shoot more, Vince and company are just coming up with ways to make it work. 

Thank you Vince for letting anyone who wants to shoot to a ASA, shoot!!


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*I agree...*



P_Shooter said:


> The Outlaws Class,
> 
> I think that Vince came up with a great Idea to get IBO shooters to go to ASA shoots in Michigan, I shot the Indoor ASA and there was alot of poeple in the Outlaw class that said that they wouldn't have shot becuase they were over 288fps. Now a guy (or girl) can run one set up and not have to change out sights and arrows just to go to a shoot. I think everybody wants to shoot more, Vince and company are just coming up with ways to make it work.
> 
> Thank you Vince for letting anyone who wants to shoot to a ASA, shoot!!


...now it's up to the IBO shooters to show their support _*for 3d archery*_. I like shooting with those guys. I hope they will budget time and resources to come visit the West side of our state.


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

Bubba, What class did you shoot? The class that I shoot is Hunter and 1 st place normally pays over $400. If I win the Sims known distance shoot at the same event I could bring in another $135 or so. At the same event I know you could win another check for placing in the Pro-Am shoot. Alot of different ways to compete and win money at the same tournament.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

I shot Limited in those days. Back in the Pearson era that was the pay out for my class. Can't remember if they ever paid 4th or not. Today based on turnout more places get paid. In those days there was no Sims. In about '98 they started the Brunton which was the equivolent of the Sims. Do you shoot many ProAms?


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

I like the weekend of shooting you get with the ASA. Get to shoot with a Pro on Friday on the Pro am team shoots. You know what time your going to shoot and usually moves along very well. Seems the Pro's are always around to chat with and get advice. Nice little award presentation.
IBo-Show up,shoot , look at vendors and go home.


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

Bubba, I try to get to at least two a year. Two years ago I made it to three. One of these years I would love to make it to a classic. You probably know Buzz Spencer. He shoots in your class and is our ASA state rep.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Buzz Spencer ?????? I might know him. I think I have seen him once or twice.:wink:


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

JB- You had an early statement about Hunter class in IBO not paying. This is a serious money maker for either the IBO or the host club. I fully understand and appreciate why they stopped paying in this class. Before there was the AHC there were some semipro washouts who put fixed pins on their bows and shot the HC. They cleaned up. Using the excuse that they hadn't shot for a year or two they shot with the newbies and put a hurt on em. Sorry guys but this is a total lack of integrity. Hunter class should be for the folks who are just starting out or for those who just like to shoot in a less competitive environment than MBR. JMHO


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## JB Archer (Mar 20, 2003)

I think if they would adopt the same rule that the ASA has that says that once you have shot in a pro or semi pro class you can't go back to an amature class it would eliminate that problem. 
I am telling you what, I think that the caliber of shooters that are in the hunter class today are top notch. I saw a Semi Pro shooter go to hunter class 2 years ago and get it handed to him. He shot well but didn't even come close to winning it. Talk about a humbling experience. Let them come down and see what happens now. If you want to win that class you need to shoot clean and with a boat load of X rings. Its not as easy as they think, considering the limitations on equipment.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*I agree...*



JB Archer said:


> I think if they would adopt the same rule that the ASA has that says that once you have shot in a pro or semi pro class you can't go back to an amature class it would eliminate that problem.
> I am telling you what, I think that the caliber of shooters that are in the hunter class today are top notch. I saw a Semi Pro shooter go to hunter class 2 years ago and get it handed to him. He shot well but didn't even come close to winning it. Talk about a humbling experience. Let them come down and see what happens now. If you want to win that class you need to shoot clean and with a boat load of X rings. Its not as easy as they think, considering the limitations on equipment.


...I also think that the organizations will benefit if they cater more to the average bow hunter and less to the pro shooter. I experience too much the other way around. And if you really think about it most archers are either back yard target practicers or club only shooters. If they are not 'targeted' as a market by ASA and IBo etc. then archery numbers will probably keep going down at the sanctioned shoots.


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

I am a current member of both the IBO and ASA. I am a state rep for the IBO as well. I enjoy shooting both venues as much one as the other. The ASA shoots are geared more towards the traveling shooters from across the country. The ASA is a private business that is trying to make a profit from putting the shoots on. The IBO is a non-profit orginization that is primarily interested in promoting bowhunting and protecting our hunting rights. The shoots they put on do make money for this. Some one posted earlier that the bowhunter defense range makes the money for that. Yes that is a big precentage of funding but the IBO also gets some of the entree fees at these shoots which part goes to the purse at the world shoot and part goes to run the IBO. The IBO shoots are geared more for the local guy that just wants to come shoot his bow. If you want to shoot all on friday saturday or sunday you can or shoot any part of them each day. If its pouring down the rain you dont have to go out in it unless you want to. The payouts are not as big as at an ASA shoot but its not designed to be. They both are great orginzations and we all benefit by being members of both of them.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*please...*



ky hammer said:


> I am a current member of both the IBO and ASA. I am a state rep for the IBO as well. I enjoy shooting both venues as much one as the other. The ASA shoots are geared more towards the traveling shooters from across the country. The ASA is a private business that is trying to make a profit from putting the shoots on. The IBO is a non-profit orginization that is primarily interested in promoting bowhunting and protecting our hunting rights. The shoots they put on do make money for this. Some one posted earlier that the bowhunter defense range makes the money for that. Yes that is a big precentage of funding but the IBO also gets some of the entree fees at these shoots which part goes to the purse at the world shoot and part goes to run the IBO. The IBO shoots are geared more for the local guy that just wants to come shoot his bow. If you want to shoot all on friday saturday or sunday you can or shoot any part of them each day. If its pouring down the rain you dont have to go out in it unless you want to. The payouts are not as big as at an ASA shoot but its not designed to be. They both are great orginzations and we all benefit by being members of both of them.


...take a look at this thread. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=626707


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## merwin10 (May 2, 2007)

*ASA vs IBO*

Hey I would not slam any archery organization as they all have good and bad points. Personally I like a walk in the woods and different target setups it makes it challenging.

Your comment about the IBO is untrue! There are rules to be followed and if there is only one thing I can say about IBO is that they need to be more forceful of their rules and have an IBO representative visit the club before, during and after the shoot to make sure the rules are followed and guide the club thru the process. My personal experience is that the IBO office staff is great to work with and provides quick and timely responses. 

I have run IBO events and every bow is checked for weight and arrow weight or speed for every archery. Fair is fair the rules says what the specs are and the club needs to enforce the rules, most don’t bother! The other thing is that there needs to be course judges for about every 10 targets to insure the course rules are maintained. As for long waits there is the 2 minute rule and if the course is set up correctly as far as distance between targets, there should be no waits. Actually I find the IBO rules more forgiving than our local league 3D rules as the kill zone has to be totally un-obscured, we tend to have branches and grass covering some of the kill zones locally, makes it more challenging and realistic.

It is up to the Club IBO committee to enforce the rules and when they don’t you end up with negative comments about any archery event. 

The biggest issue with these club shoots is manpower. The clubs think they can do the shoot with a minimum staff, which translates to a less than desirable shoot. When I did my last IBO shoot I had a club staff of 57 people and needed more,! Most clubs try to do it with as few people as possible. To put on the any shoot on correctly you need lots of support if you can not get the support from the club you need to re-consider putting on the shoot, as it will only add comments like we have seen here!

By the way I shoot ASA, IBO, and FITA and have been to good and bad shoots on all fronts! I all depends on the club event staff following the rules.

Mike -


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## powerpoint9 (Jul 6, 2007)

merwin10 said:


> By the way I shoot ASA, IBO, and FITA and have been to good and bad shoots on all fronts! I all depends on the club event staff following the rules.
> 
> Mike -


I've not been to any as of yet but...that sounds like a fair answer right there. Not just in following the rules but course preparation (which may be a rule) and all the little things that remind you that someone did there homework. And the shoot isn't an afterthought. 

It all boils down to how the shoot makes you feel doesn't it? The walks, the pay-out, the club, the officials, the scoring etc... Personal relations is huge. When I was an avid golfer I attended a tournament. When it was over the hosting company gave each golfer several nice appreciation gifts. Now it doesn't sound like much but I've attended a lot of tournaments where "thanks for paying and playing to support our cause" was not mentioned. 

In short I always looked forward to the tournament where I felt appreciated and everyone else did to because the attendance was always high!


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## kctreeman (Feb 27, 2008)

I'm pretty new to this 3d stuff, but here in Missouri, we don't seem to have a lot of ANY of the "club" events. This includes NFAA, IBO, or ASA. I've found one IBO event...the World Qualifier in St. Joseph. One NFAA event...the State Championships. ZERO ASA events. All we seem to have are local club events. There are plenty of those, but the class rules seem to change at every single event. There is no consistency. I've finally set up two different bows to shoot different vanes and weights just so that I can compete in every event. Very frustrating! Also, they very rarely police equipment at any of these events. I've shot "hunter" class where they allow blazers, and hunter classes where they don't, but really don't enforce it. 
Any advice/comments??


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## merwin10 (May 2, 2007)

*league rules*

My suggestion is to try and setup a league - our league has 12 clubs - we shoot on a rotating schedule every Sunday morning! The way we choose the dates is we put the first 12 Sundays on a piece of paper in a hat and then pick a slip out of the hat. Once the first 12 Sundays are picked we rotate in that order thru-out the year. 

We have adopted the IBO rules as the bases of the league rules - then we add or subtract as needed and agreed upon. One of the league rules is that any league club cannot have another archery event on another clubs Sunday. One of the IBO rules waved is difficulty of the shot. IBO says the vital area must be totally clear of obstruction we have agreed that as long as the eight ring can be seen it is a legal shot. Sure makes it more interesting and more life like and better prepares the archers for IBO World Qualifiers. It also get the clubs into the competition to see who can set up the best course. Some IBO rules that we all agree on is the equipment rules and target distances. That makes it easy to control.

I am not saying IBO is the only way to go just pick one set of rules and stick with them.

Go here to see the rules we use - http://www.oldbow.com/tricounty_rules.htm 

Mike -


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Here we go again. There is a huge difference between ASAProams/IBO National Triple Crown events and their local/state counterparts. Local clubs host shoots using either IBO or ASA rules, charge an entry fee of usually $15 or less for 40 and some have a trophy to the winner. These type shoots I will call club shoots. Then we have the IBO/ASA qualifier shoots. These shoots have a different entry fee. At an IBO qualifier you pay $25, shoot to qualify for the IBO World and a portion of the entry is paid back at the World. The hosts and IBO get a portion of the money. Generally(at least in the ones I have shot) there are no awards for winning. ASA qualifiers are $25 entry fee, you shoot to qualify for the State Championship, most of the time there is a payback to the shooters and the host and ASA get a portion of the money. These shoot I will call the qualifiers. Now this brings us to the National events. IBO has three plus the World. They charge $50(most adult classes) entry, payback 20%, the host keeps $34 of your entry and you may recieve a placque if you place high enough(1 placque in the class I shoot). At the IBO World you pay a $68 entry and the payback is a little better, the winner recieves a belt buckle. ASA has six plus the Classic. You pay from $30-$50 depending on the class, have a 70% payback and placques to the top 3. At the Classic the payback and entry is the same.

Master Yoda- You said what is wrong with the host making money. Nothing is wrong with that, they have to make money or we don't have places to shoot. The point I want to make is...why do the hosts of the IBO National Triple Crown feel their 40 targets are worth 2 or 3 times as much to shoot. If a local club can make $12 a shooter why can't the National host be happy with the same.

Bowtechie- You said at least the IBO has the guts to have shoots in the south. Wow! Lets look at the IBO Southern Triple Crown for a moment. The last one(2008 third leg at P'cola) had a total of 205 shooters. That is not very many shooters for a premier event. I checked where folks were from(thanks IBO it is cool you list where they are from) and of those attending only 50 were from north of the Mason Dixon. Now ASA has some shoots in the north(some Federation qualifier shoots) and no Proams. Why? Over the years ASA has had I believe 3 Proam in Michigan, 2 in Indiana and 1 in Pennsylvannia. If you look at there attendance they were the lowest turnouts of the year. Why? Is it that the southern shooters won't come north.NO. It is because the Northern shooterswho shoot IBO won't slow their bow down to shoot at 288 or less. I am not saying that all of them stayed away but certainly a lot of them did. Plus you have the 12 to deal with. Some IBO shooters feel that you are rewarded for making a bad shot when you hit a 12 as you were off on yardage and aiming in the middle and your arrow fell into the 12. I always ask them if the 12 was not there and your arrow hit there do you not want the 10 for making shot. I agree with the reward for making a bad shot on the 14 as you can flinch into one once in awhile but what the heck it is there and stuff happens. While the next Proam in London Kentucky is not as close as Nelsonville for you it is still about as close as Bedford or Erie. Why don't you come on down.


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

*Ibo*

Quote-The point I want to make is...why do the hosts of the IBO National Triple Crown feel their 40 targets are worth 2 or 3 times as much to shoot. If a local club can make $12 a shooter why can't the National host be happy with the same

Bubba,
Doesn't the IBO get the targets donated by mckenzie for these National Events and then are auctioned off after the shoot.
i.e. the host club doesn't even pay for the targets? 
I don't want to bash any org. just asking.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

I don't know what the arrangement for targets is, I would assume that Mckenzie sells them to the club at dealer cost or perhaps less. Still they make money on that too. If you have ever attended a target auction at a NTC some of the targets sell for almost new price. Of course they are the protectors of our bowhunting rights. Man am I gettin tired of that excuse. Everytime you question anything about the IBO they pull out the "protecting your bowhunting rights" card. I am not saying that they don't contribute to protecting our rights it is that they are not as big a cog in the wheel as they would like us to believe. Oh wait it is comments like that, that divide the bowhunting community. Sorry guys, my bad. But hey if you read the 2008 IBO yearbook they call themselves..."the big league of the bow world". So I guess when you set your self up as the king, some (fill in the blank) like me will take a shot at you.


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

Sorry I got this off topic!!!
I will probably join both next year joined IBO this year because the shoots are closer to home.
I am sure they are both top notch orgs. each in there own way.
Hey it's shooting foam isn't it.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Rush said:


> I normally won't weigh in on a conversation like this one, but here we go. For one, I completely agree with DRFrance. He is absolutely right.
> 
> Also, I think the hunter class was designed to get the more average archer out shooting in these tournaments. There was no payback, so better shooters wouldn't drop back to collect on the money, thus putting the average archer right back where he was.
> 
> ...


This is the "post of the day" on this issue. Very well put and very well thought out.
I'm with you on this one Rush. :thumbs_up


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

longbowdude said:


> Yep pretty much. I dont own a one and am not going to shoot in something uncomfortable and ugly and hot as a collared golf shirt. I could care less how somebody looks. It aint a beauty pagent.


How about if the shirt comes from a sponsor who gives you free bows, arrows, all accessories, helps with travel costs, and puts your picture in their ads? Would you wear it then? I sure would. Even one that says, "Chico's Bail Bonds" :wink:


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Carlosii-Unfortunately in the world in which Longbowdude and I shoot in there are no sponsors. You have to look long and hard to find a stick shooter that has any type of sponsorship be it from a dealer or manufacturer. The stick classes are kinda the redheaded stepchildren of archery, Which is cool cuz I am trying to be the best lil redhead I can be.:tongue:


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

*Ibo Asa*

I enjoy the IBO shoots, I can't speak for the ASA as there aren't any close enough for me to consider going to. If there were I'd be there. Everyone needs to just go shoot and have a good time. If you don't enjoy one venue don't go.:wink:


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Mocheese-The next ASA Proam is in London, Kentucky. London is less than two hours from Cincinnati. I have shot in Jackson and it can't be that far from Cincinnati. You ought to come on down to London. BTW after years of shooting IBO, I think your advice is good.....if you don't like it don't shoot it.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Bowtechie said:


> Real classy there Maniac. Your the 2nd ASA representative I've seen in the last week bashing the IBO. Why not just say something nice about the ASA instead?


 Well I am an ASA area rep and will be shooting the IBO WORLDS.:wink:


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## proXarchery (Apr 9, 2004)

to all that hunt . if you bash IBO ,shame on you does asa fight for your right to hunt in this country? know the facts before you tell some one the organization is no good


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

proXarchery said:


> to all that hunt . if you bash IBO ,shame on you does asa fight for your right to hunt in this country? know the facts before you tell some one the organization is no good


How much of that money goes to the fight?, dont fall into the 'non-profit' - it all goes to a good cause trap. Folks who work for 'non-profit' companies make more $$$ than anyone.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I am not shooting IBO ... because: I have a set amount of days off and I support hunting in my state, and the states I hunt in by buying licenses.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

ProX-I have no doubt that IBO helps in the fight. They are a much smaller fighter than you have been lead to believe. Your state's bowhunting organization probably does more for you locally(where most of us hunt) than the IBO does. I know the IBO is always willing to show you the books but where does the money go after it is on the books(who gets the donations). What protect bowhunting fights have they been in? When I read about something going on somewhere it is usually the United States Sportsman's Alliance or SCI leading the fight. BTW the money raised at IBO events for Bowhunter defense comes from the Bowhunter Defense courses not the regular tournament so if you don't shoot the defense range you are not contributing to defending bowhunting.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with the IBO itself. My problem is the host clubs of the National Triple Crown. Ya they are great shoots and it takes a lot of work to put them on blah blah blah but as I stated earlier why does their 40 targets cost me so much more than 40 at a local club. The money payback comes from the $10 increase entries made. The clubs buy the placques(back in the day the top 10/class received a trophy). Today how many do they give out? Again they are giving less awards and that makes them more money. At a local shoot I could care less about a trophy but when you finish in the top 3 at a national event especially when you are at "the big league of the bow world" you should get something.


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

Bubba Dean said:


> ...but as I stated earlier why does their 40 targets cost me so much more than 40 at a local club...


Keep in mind that while your local club has to trim lanes, mark trails, set stakes, and set & pull 40 targets, there are at least 120 targets set at a Triple Crown event.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

JPE- So what does 120 targets set for all classes have to do with the money they make? I know that translates to more work but does that still make them need nearly 70% of the entry? ASA sets 11 twenty target ranges at a Proam. They do this with their staff(and sometimes without much volunteer local assistance) and they only keep 30% of the entry. I know what you are going to say....then shoot ASA then. I do and will continue to regardless if they have shoots in back yard or not.


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

Bubba Dean said:


> JPE- So what does 120 targets set for all classes have to do with the money they make? I know that translates to more work but does that still make them need nearly 70% of the entry? ASA sets 11 twenty target ranges at a Proam. They do this with their staff(and sometimes without much volunteer local assistance) and they only keep 30% of the entry. I know what you are going to say....then shoot ASA then. I do and will continue to regardless if they have shoots in back yard or not.


I never said a thing about how much money they make. You said something about it costing $15 to shoot a local club with 40 targets. I think it would be reasonable to expect to pay more to go to a shoot that has to set at least 3 times as many targets and has much more to offer than the local shoot in the way of vendors, etc.

It's obvious that you like the ASA better. I'm happy that we have a choice to shoot either/or or even both. But why is it that so many people feel the need to put down the IBO? Isn't it good for our sport that there is a place that so many can go to shoot? If there were no IBO, how many who went because it was close to home would travel all the way to an ASA shoot? 

The ASA and IBO are two completely different animals. If you don't like one or the other then don't go. It's just that simple. I personally plan to keep shooting as many tournaments as I can get to whether it be IBO, ASA, NFAA, etc...


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

JPE the point is regardless of whether they 120 or not you still only shoot 40. The increased number of targets is for the increased number of shooters in all classes i.e. different classes shoot different ranges instead of different stakes on the same range. This speeds up the process.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Bubba Dean said:


> JPE the point is regardless of whether they 120 or not you still only shoot 40. The increased number of targets is for the increased number of shooters in all classes i.e. different classes shoot different ranges instead of different stakes on the same range. This speeds up the process.



Dan....Did I see you say speed it up and it being linked to shooting IBO? From what I have heard from people it takes hours upon hours to shoot 20 targets.


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## bowhuntercody (Mar 21, 2007)

Dead Center said:


> I would like to see some ASA shoots further north.


yah, one in maine would be nice:darkbeer:


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