# Cheating??



## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

Hello,
Have any of you guys in your clubs suspected anyone of cheating during 3D tournaments? How did you and the club handle it?


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Go right on up to the suspect(s) at the next shoot and ask if he or she would like to shoot with you. You'll find out what's what, the arrow or the pencil! LOL!!


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## LMMJS (Oct 23, 2008)

I think you find it at almost every 3d shoot " the pencil is mightier than the arrow"


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## AVENSTOKE (Dec 5, 2006)

We had one in our Local shoots and I just embrassed him and called him out. He always showed up late or made excuses why he couldn't shoot with me. A buddy of mine finally got him about 2 weeks ago. This kid is beating my buddy in points due to a questionable shoot.My buddy beat him by 30+ points.:mg: After the shoot my buddy simply told him we all know you cheated and don't let it happen again.


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## arrowslinger#1 (Jul 6, 2006)

I have waited around for one in particular, He always posts up incredible and shoots late and alone. I don't think any shooter should be able to shoot alone and get their scores accepted!


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## sup3rfox (Mar 2, 2009)

we had a guy that was shooting 350 out of 360 in hunters class so first they told him he had to shoot with someone and he just left and for this year they made a rule where you have to have your score card signed by someone else who you shot with


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## eliteFREAK (Jul 18, 2007)

*cheaters*

Same with our club we had one we suspected, let it ride but at our next shoot we posted a sign saying that all shooters competing for trophies had to shoot with one or more shooters so some one could verify the scores if it came to that!


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

I dont really understand how someone cheats if they are shooting in a Group...

Once person has all scorecards, everyone walks up to the target, the arrows are scored with everyone comming to an agreement on where the arrow lies in the target. The score gets written down...end of story..

Now if they are shooting with the same group all the time and come in with crazy scores all the time then break up the group..

Anyone shooting on there own does not get to turn in a score card, you knwo what time the shoot starts, show up on time and you can turn in a score...

pretty simple to me ...ukey:


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## MudRunner2005 (Oct 8, 2008)

Kale said:


> I dont really understand how someone cheats if they are shooting in a Group...
> 
> Once person has all scorecards, everyone walks up to the target, the arrows are scored with everyone comming to an agreement on where the arrow lies in the target. The score gets written down...end of story..
> 
> ...


Yep...I'd have to agree with that.

We always swap score-cards so no one scores their own.

Not that anyone is going to cheat, it's just a preventative measure to keep the game honest.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Folks there will always be cheating.....no matter what sport. If someone is going to cheat they are going to cheat. How do we stop it? 1) No one ever shoots alone for score. 2) Groups are "busted"....shooting with your wife,kids,brother, brotherinlaw etc is not a "busted" group 3)If someone is suspected of cheating make them shoot 10 targets to prove their score. Should be no problem as they have already shot those targets in the competition. 4) Double scoring is a must. One of the scorekeepers must not be part of the family or friends in the group.

National tournament do a better job of this than the locals do. Local clubs for the most part just want to get shooters in, take their money, have them shoot and go home. Who wins or how they win is of no concern to the hosts?


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## smurphy (Feb 22, 2007)

I find it happens more when money is involved. thats why I shoot practice rounds at all the local shoots. because I know a few scores that some of these guys get they couldn't get it if they shot the course twice and added the two together. I have shot with them and after the first bad shot here comes the excuses. from a bad arrow to something moved on my bow to my all time favorite there was something in my eye:hurt: then back at the club house they try to explain how my wife beat them by 30 points



.On a side note who like to shoot with better shooters? I sure do. I know I will most likely get beat by 10 or so points. but it makes me a better shot I have also had some of my best scores when when I shoot with better shots and have actually beat them a few times.


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## hutchies (Jun 8, 2005)

There will always be cheaters..............I shot at the ASA Pro Am and we had a guy in our group that would line up with the next target and step it off back to where he was in line with the next stake. I talked to 2 other guys in my group..........they said oh well everyone does it. I said well you guys might but I would rather lose with my pride intact then sit out there and win cheating. I was more than a little upset about it and let them all know.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

Pacing off targets is specifically addressed in the ASA Pro/Am rules. It is not allowed and the shooter is subject to being DQ'd if a range official is notified.


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## Logster (Jan 17, 2009)

I think that in most cases, people are hesitant to call a cheater on their actions or even questionable calls for fear of being wrong or being looked at as "that guy" who causes trouble. I don't go out looking for questionable acts but in Alberta, we are grouped together at all shoots and I find that between groups and double scoring on all money/trophy/sanctioned shoots, there are next to no problems but I will call anybody on anything that looks unsportsmanlike (so I guess I am that "guy").


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Devils advocate*

I'll play devils advocate just to mix it up. I shot 8 up one weekend and won a shoot, turned around the next weekend at a different place and shot 12 down and didn't even place. Maybe someone who doesn't know me thought "I shot against that guy the other day and he beat me but today he isn't even in the running........hmmmmmm........he must be a cheater." You've heard it, I've heard it, we've all heard it. Someone *itchin cause they got beat. It happens. Not really too much you can do about it if they are cheating other than some of the suggestions already mentioned. "Calling someone out", get real, you do that and you are no better X2 if they are or are not. I have noticed in the past that people who will do this really don't care even if they are wrong, it's in their genes. :violin: que the banjo music.

BW


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## NateUK (Dec 4, 2008)

People that are dishonest are going to find a way to cheat if they really want to. At a large, national shoot it would be very difficult to cheat because they bust the groups and typically two people are keeping score. That's from my very small amount of personal experience.
It's much more difficult to regulate things at a local shoot because the clubs just want shooters to come in and have a good time. Most shooters come in with a few friends or family members and have a good time.
If someone desires to cheat, they are just cheating themselves. If I'm shooting for money, then I'm going to call somebody out if I think they are using questionable tactics, but if it's just in a trophy class, I would let it go.


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

Knowing and proving can often be very difficult at best. 

Examples that I have seen/suspected:

Some courses have open field targets near each other. Some guys will blatantly pace off the steps from target back to stake watching the next stakes as they do so. Others are more subtle and know that their normal stride is 10steps = 8yrds. Either way, it's hard to call a guy on that one because they will just say they are pacing off the yardage from the shot they just took to see how close they guessed.

2 guys calling scores, 2 guys recording. 20 targets into course the scorekeepers check scores. Ironically one of the guys scoring gave himself a 10 and the other card was an 8. He also gave his buddy(we broke up their group and they weren't happy) a 10 on a target and it was an 8 on the other guys card. These were both between targets 3-7 so a long way back where no one remembers. 99/100 times the group doesn't want to short a guy an honest 10 if a scorekeeper "possibly" made an error and put down an 8 so they give them the benefit of the doubt and give them the 10.

It's "close enough" . I've actually heard this one on the range and at indoor shoots where you can overhear the group next to you. I've seen a group walk up and from 5yrds say "all 11s" when I see some that are way too close to call without examination. I have seen guys walk up and call a high 11 right away while standing above the target where there is no way to see the line. I will bend down, get close and examine and tell him it's a 10. I'll then get the "Oh jeez, let me get my glasses out" and they will then look and say "It's pretty close, looks like an 11 to me." I will then say that I see foam, 1/16" worth, between the line and the arrow. They will then defend that everyone else would call that in.

The line is there for a reason. If I see foam, even 1/128", it's out. It's a pretty simple concept.

I think a lot of guys bully others into compliance, or others hope they will get a favorable call next time so they don't want to rock the boat. I'm used to people thinking I'm a prick(my job) so I'll call a spade a spade. I can do it honestly and politely. But I think that 3d(especially IBO) has such a reputation for cheating that guys assume everyone else does so they might as well cheat too so they have a chance. Maybe this why my scores are so low compared to others:mg:

I just go out and have fun and leave with my integrity intact. If I was shooting for positions or money I would likely quit playing because the stuff I see would start to piss me off.

But again, knowing/suspecting and proving are 2 very different things.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Hutchies- If you attend another ProAm and have someone in your group stepping off targets PLEASE notify your range official. I know several of ASA's regular range officials who would not hesitate to enforce the rules.


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## Logster (Jan 17, 2009)

"think a lot of guys bully others into compliance, or others hope they will get a favorable call next time so they don't want to rock the boat. I'm used to people thinking I'm a prick(my job) so I'll call a spade a spade. I can do it honestly and politely"

This is very much my line of thinking, I am not out to be a ******* but I am not going to write down an 11 just because a group is calling a round of them. If we don't police ourselves, the whole sport gets a bad rep.


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

What's so crazy about it is that it is a family... Mom, Dad, Son and Daughter that shoot together in a group. My wife and I practice with them on the weekends and they shoot alright, not great(they just started a couple months ago), but when they go to the local 3D shoots, the MOM is beating a Woman that has been shooting at least 3 years that has been shooting State Championships and just about everything else she can shoot, and winning!! And if that isn't enough, she just so happens to get the same scores that the woman got the local shoot before!! 
During the local shoots, she(MOM) likes to sit around and gloat and brag to everyone around what her scores were when everyone can see them posted on the board.
This is CRAZY!!!


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

Also, The Dad won in his class too, along with the son and daughter. 


Does something smell fishy to you guys too!!!


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## henry2 (May 6, 2009)

being brand new to the sport of 3-d-archery i do not how to keep score on the card yet and a local sime formal match we had sat morning i did not score the card right and lost points ..
the one of the guys took me around the course again and had me shoot a couple of diff targets there and give me a better score than i give got before..
he told everyone that said something about it ..brand new person to the game of 3.d.will not score the card right ..so we have to rescore the card again to let see the mistakes that i made on the some of the targets..

there was only guy had a problem with it for he was the typle no matter what you did he was going to have a problem with it..

i found that when i go to the 3.d.shoots most of the guys they pair me off with a lot better shots and teaching me as we go though the course and are shooting at the diff stations ..each time i go out with someone new and who is a better shooter than me i come back with something new each time..
so does my girlfreind ..
like reading the wind i was trying to do like do with a rifle and was not getting anywear near the target zone and paul said just let go and you do fine


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## henry2 (May 6, 2009)

this sat was the first time i ever shot for score on a 3-d-course


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

It looks like everyone is speechless now... that's how we feel. We can't hardly believe it either.:mg:

Oh, well...:sad:


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

The family in question has shot a few(3 or 4) 3D meets and Mom had a real low 100's score for 20 targets at her first one, but at the next one, she had just a couple shy of 200 score(same score as Champion woman shooter a couple meets before). The rest of the family did quite well too, but not quite as good as her. 
The last one, she got a low 200 score with half of them being 12's, the same score as the Champion woman shooter made at her last shoot.


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## smurphy (Feb 22, 2007)

!3DCrazy! said:


> The family in question has shot a few(3 or 4) 3D meets and Mom had a real low 100's score for 20 targets at her first one, but at the next one, she had just a couple shy of 200 score(same score as Champion woman shooter a couple meets before). The rest of the family did quite well too, but not quite as good as her.
> The last one, she got a low 200 score with half of them being 12's, the same score as the Champion woman shooter made at her last shoot.


Is there money involved? if so that is kind of stealing i think.

I have seen the same with a husband and wife around here. that couldn't hit any place they were aiming. but I also have shot with a few guys that couldn't hit a circle on a big bag target, but could not miss a 10 ring on a 3-d course.


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## TN_3D_NUT (May 13, 2009)

*Cheating!*

It just boils down to, anything that you do or get involved in, people will find a way to cheat at anything. Some people have no self respect or integrity. They just want to be on top of the list at the end of the day to look good! 

Until you can post a range official at every target and have the official call the scores for the targets it will not stop. I know on more than one occasion I have been beaten by someones pencil! Just have to learn to let it go and move on. This is one reason I very seldom shoot in a money class.


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## Brad HT (Dec 9, 2006)

What gets me the most is people blatently pacing off steps to targets in an indoor shoot. My home club hosts a MAJOR tournament locally. Guys drive for a day or more to get there. During the qualifiers, and even the final shoot, guys will blatently pace off steps to the targets. I know the rangemaster has seen it, but wont really do anything about it.. for one reason or another.
I guess it all evens out in the end, considering you have to shoot amazingly well to come in the top 5.

Too bad too.... I guess I dont get the mindset of a cheater, If thats how you have to win, thats pretty sad.


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

Brad HT said:


> What gets me the most is people blatently pacing off steps to targets in an indoor shoot. My home club hosts a MAJOR tournament locally. Guys drive for a day or more to get there. During the qualifiers, and even the final shoot, guys will blatently pace off steps to the targets. I know the rangemaster has seen it, but wont really do anything about it.. for one reason or another.
> I guess it all evens out in the end, considering you have to shoot amazingly well to come in the top 5.
> 
> Too bad too.... I guess I dont get the mindset of a cheater, If thats how you have to win, thats pretty sad.


walk with the guy back to the line, talkig to him the whole time or just walk beside him and call out random numbers , 23, 54, 34, 21, 43, 31, just to mix him up haha then when he gets all hot and bothered by it call him out


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

*"busting" groups....*

In our local shoots, it is a casual start time - come on out anytime between 9 and 2. So there is no shotgun start or anything to allow "busting" of groups. I really haven't had any concerns about pencil whipping by others, and I have never been accused of cheating myself, but quite often my group consists of my brother, an uncle, me, and all of our kids (5 of them). We will often try to get another person or two to shoot in with us if we see a solo or pair on the practice range, but a lot of guys don't want to shoot with a bunch of kids. 

In fact, when I first started shooting tournaments a few years ago, my daughter (7 at the time) wanted to go with me, but my brother had not gotten into it yet. I took the rules about not keeping your own score very literally, and we stood around on the practice range for an hour a couple of times trying to get people to let us join their group, or just shoot with us. Finally, I just went into the shop and told the owner we couldn't get anyone to shoot with us, and couldn't keep hanging around; if that meant my score wouldn't be counted, so be it. 

I have never been accused of cheating myself (I have won a few shoots here & there the last couple years, and generally place OK unless I have a real off day), but I have heard on occasion some guys grouse about people shooting in the same groups, or only with their friends and family, etc. Funny thing is, those guys were some of the same ones that would not shoot with me and my daughter when we first started a few years ago. Now, most of the regulars know me and my daughter (she won State at Jr. Eagle), so when we go alone we have no trouble finding groups to join 

I share this info to make a couple of points - a lot of folks come to the local shoots to be with family and friends, so always requiring "busting" their group may just deter them from coming back - my brother is a relative newcomer, and we discuss shooting form, equipment, how to judge, target sizes, etc. (not before the shots, and not in earshot of other competitors) - shooting with me is helping him to learn more about the sport. On the other hand, if you are going to be sticklers about groups being "busted" or at least having an "outsider", have a system in place to assign shooters to groups as they arrive and declare ready; don't leave newbies hanging around the practice range begging for someone to finish their group or let them join in. If I had not been such a die-hard archer, I probably would have gone home and not returned after those first couple of times.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*I agree*



smurphy said:


> Is there money involved? if so that is kind of stealing i think.
> 
> I have seen the same with a husband and wife around here. that couldn't hit any place they were aiming. but I also have shot with a few guys that couldn't hit a circle on a big bag target, but could not miss a 10 ring on a 3-d course.


It has not become an issue yet at our club. But if it does I feel obligated to address each issue if it is valid. I want the honest shooters to keep attending and not get discouraged. While the pencil pushers can go somewhere else to play. 

People that know me know that I will address any complaints so they are careful to make accusations that are not valid.


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## Whackmaster (Jul 4, 2004)

The group that I shoot with is there for fun and improving our skills for deer season. We do keep score at each shoot just so we can see if we are improving or not but we never turn our score cards in. 

I can't see cheating just to win a trophy or a few dollars.....I just love the sport.....................................

With that said, Let's go shoot and have fun.......................


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## tedicast (Jun 6, 2004)

Like everyone said...there are cheaters everywhere. I set up the league course at my club. I've shot with some of these guys on courses a lot easier then what I set up, and I wasn't impressed, but on the league...they are shooting perfect. We have one guy that shoots local 3D that is a known pencil pusher. No one feels the need to do anything about it I guess. The three ways people cheat here a with the pencil. Or shooting in a group and agreeing on mulligans, or sneaking in a range finder.


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## henry2 (May 6, 2009)

the guys i shoot with a top notch guys and they take there time with me and help when no one is around to hear them ..
if that cheating iam sorry for people to feel that way..
for new people is the life blood of any sports..


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## socalhuntr (Feb 4, 2007)

we had issues with one shooter at our indoor vegas league. it was brought to our attention that his score was no where close to what he shot. the next week we had a guy secretly scoring his arrows. it turned out to be true . the score he turned in was 20+ points higher than what he actually scored. when he was called out on it he was inbarest and ended up quitting the league. now we never see him but he occasionally shows up her to bad mouth the shop. i guess he doesn't think anyone at the shop is on AT. next time he bad mouths our shop he will be called out again. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!:zip:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I shoot IFAA 3D and field and it's always double scoring, if scores dont match you have to take lower score. 

At local shoots it's ok to shoot with family but there will always be an outsider in that group, bigger shoots no family\buddy groups it's all head to head shooting, even the kids shoot head to head with an adult minder.

on unmarked 3D anybody walking forward of shooting stake before shooting has zero points, if you step off the stake you're considered as finished shooting. any discussion about distance is not allowed, binoculars are not allowed.

In the groups you have a target captain and two scorers, the target capt calls everybodies arrows, if you disagree with his call you can ask for 1st scorer in group to confirm it, the first scorer checks target captains arrows and any problems the 1st and 2nd scorer make the call.

The only way anybody can cheat is doing something with equipment or using illegal aiming method in some divisions, at big tourneys all equipment is checked and at National\international tourneys you bow setup is recorded and randomly checked during the tourney to make sure the Bow setup hasn't been altered.

IFAA make a big effort to ensure cheating doesn't happen, no system is fool proof but with shooting groups set they way they are it's very difficult to do anything illegal without somebody noticing.

I like the system, it seems a little OTT but I've shot for other shooting associations and been accused of cheating just for putting in a good score and it's not nice. When I shoot IFAA I can shoot with confidence knowing that I wont be accused or that anybody else is cheating, end of the day it makes the tourney more enjoyable.


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## Andrend (May 29, 2009)

I just had my first 3D shoot, and for that matter I only shot half of it, sadly thats all the schedule would allow. That said, I shot what I felt was very well considering my shoot, I got the jitters the day before and torched my shoulder practicing. My mentor, whom scored for me, showed me how to score, and so I understand how one could manipulate the scores, but is this really that big of a problem? After my first day I was in decent standing, for which I felt great considering. I guess it just makes no sense to me, why would you fudge your scores, and if there were huge prizes at stake, why would there not a no self scoring rule for any prizes? Again, very new to all of this, but certainly hooked and on fire with it, so if my question seems ridiculous, I apologize.


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## henry2 (May 6, 2009)

i shoot international 10.meter air rifle and belive me when i say this if you cheat you are going to get caught somewhere down the line for it..
when we shoot in our groups its broken down into age and ranking typle groups and you can only sandbag someone so many times when they start to notice your scores.. 
the range people will take notice allso and at the next match.. the people that in charge will just bump you up to the next level in the game and intill you are at your skill level..


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

*Do the shoot hosts assign the "outsider" ?*



steve morley said:


> ...
> 
> At local shoots it's ok to shoot with family but there will always be an outsider in that group, bigger shoots no family\buddy groups it's all head to head shooting, even the kids shoot head to head with an adult minder...


I agree about the bigger shoots - down south here the ASA puts us in peer groups, no problems there. It is the local shoots that are the issue.

The quote above says "there will always be an outsider in that (family) group" .... 

That is perfectly acceptable to me, no complaints about having the outsider -I am always glad to have someone else, particularly someone shooting at my same stake because I often feel at a disadvantage because I am the only one in my group shooting from the further stakes, but do the shoot hosts take care of assigning an outsider, or will the group have to stand around and wait, potentially for hours, until a willing party comes along to be the outsider ? That is my only concern about such a strict rule. I guess then you are back to "busting" groups in order to make sure there is an outsider in each group.

It is a delicate balance between keeping folks honest and not making things difficult or uncomfortable for the newcomers.


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## Touchdown (Jan 24, 2009)

all of this is The biggest reason I shoot in the USBA( Indiana, Ohio, Michigan area) the have a resident judge at each target, They score all arrows and you carry your cards on to the next target and judge. NO Cheating there!


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## brotherbdc (Jun 12, 2008)

!3DCrazy! said:


> Also, The Dad won in his class too, along with the son and daughter.
> 
> 
> Does something smell fishy to you guys too!!!


Yep Ive seen daddy walking the kids to there stake witch was marked distance, only to be counting steps to his stake....couldent prove it but it sure made me mad.


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## Bowtek1 (Apr 30, 2008)

Cheating people was the biggest reason I no longer shoot honor system club shoots. Strictly shoot ASA state qualifiers here in Michigan, atleast it is a busted group,dual scorers. Seen too many 298, and 300's shot by 270 shooters(5,8,10). The ASA shoots cost more than the clubs, at least I know I was fairly beat.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

I've seen this a lot this year. One group constantly shooting together and constantly winning each of their classes. When I shot with them I was curious why they missed their normal average bye 15-20 pts. Even more curious I looked at their proam scores from today and they averaged 20pts below their last 3 club shoot scores. Then last weekend we had another group with their so called coach on the range coaching during a club shoot, against club rules, he was blurting out yardages so loud you could hear 5 targets down. Nothing was done as not to offend anyone. Its sad its this way. My scores stay consistent, w/ my bad day everynow and then. But I never shoot with the same group or atleast same 4-5 guys/gals, we always have different people. We push to get better only to be beat bye pencil whippers.


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

When I do shoots, I'm only shooting against myself. I'm of the attitude that unless you're shooting for the World Championship, you're a big fish in a small pond. I've got 1/2 dozen 1st place trophies- so what? I've won some of those 'cause I was the best of 6 finger shooters. Big deal. I'll get whupped if I go to a larger meet or a regional or a sectional or a national. What matters to me is my score against a perfect score. If a guy wants to cheat just to get a $5 trophy, I guess that's between him and his conscience.

Having a target judge seems like the best overall solution to me, but swapping cards and having multiple score cards is probably the next best. One guy calls the score, the other two write 'em down, and the scores are compared *BEFORE *the arrows are pulled.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Be careful calling someone a cheat!!!!

It's been well over a year since I had a problem at a particular club that is known for it's less than stellar leadership.... After a shoot, immediately before my score was called a big mouth or 2 said "there's no way anyone could shoot 11 up on this course." I'm glad whomever said it wasn't within arms reach or I may have got my butt whipped.........or not. I about exploded but only said "Get your bow and wallet.....we'll shoot it again!", nobody moved and I immediately left. My score was only 6 or so points higher than my average and most of the targets were 18 - 25 yards AND they had a 'mulligan" target at less than 25 yards! Ironically, I shot with a military man that I had only recently met, he's a member of that club and kept score......... we are now friends and try to shoot together when possible.

Don't use scores to determine if someone is cheating...... Scores can and do fluctuate! If we don't know for a fact someone is cheating we should keep our mouths shut. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more archers making malicious statements than there are people actually cheating! I'll shoot with anyone, any time, any where............ especially if you are a good pin shooter, enjoyable company or a newbie.


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

Well... two shoots have passed by and each one the VP of the club has tried to shoot with the family in question.
The first try the mom said, "she only shoots with her husband." She let her kids go and shoot in another group but did not want to seperate from her husband. The kids shot great and the scores are consistant. 
The second try was to shoot with her, her husband and kids and the answer from the mom was "No!!, didn't need any more in their group." There was two spaces left before the no more than 6 in a group rule. 

I think she is on to us!!

Talk about being DISCOURAGED!!

I think I'm going to change my call name to "3Darcherysucks."

Now what!!........


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

It's simple...implement mandatory group busting when shooting for awards.....


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## TOMMYY01 (Oct 21, 2003)

I for one, hate cheating! I have 4 bows and I decide which one I'll take on each shoot. I'll never have to worry about beating anyone out of a top spot and that's O K with me. I just want to get more proficient with the bows I have. I go for the love of the sport and to meet people and pick up pointers if I can to better myself. I really go for the hot dogs and hamburgers and the barbeque and to BS too! I started 3-D shoots about 12 years ago, and I love to go, if the place isn't too far to travel. Don't get me wrong, I love to compete but I'm not going to lose sleep if I don't place. :darkbeer: And when you cheat, you cheat yourself! Heck, I go for the food!


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## klemsontigers7 (Jul 1, 2008)

At our club, groups consist of 3-5 people and you MUST shoot in a group. The way my group always shoots is (I am with people I know always) 2 people get all 5 score cards. We all walk up to the target, they call out names and the other 3 give the scores to the 2 with the cards. If there are any questionable shots, the other 2 are consulted until a decision is made.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

I think it is pretty bad to cheat to win a trophy or any other prize.
It's amazing to think somebody would be proud to collect a trophy
due to pencil pushing. I compete against myself to shoot the best
I know I can shoot, not to just make sure my score is the highest.
I don't have anything to prove to anybody other than myself.


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## cabohoyt (Jun 8, 2009)

I feel like I'm a competitve person, but I'm no pro. I shoot against myself and I'm legitimately trying to improve my own shooting ability. If you cheat, you're only cheating yourself. I know I'm not going to win the tournament, but I have fun shooting and being with good people. I just try and do a little better than I did the last shoot.


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## Green River (May 13, 2006)

The club I shoot at plays for money and they leave the target post up all week. We have yea-hoos that go out during the week with range finders when eveyones gone and get a head start on the competition. The same club is hosting a $500 shoot in August and I don't plan to attend for this reason.


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## 3Dguy (Aug 3, 2008)

We pretty much know who these persons are and they will probably not get to shoot during this event!!!


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> Be careful calling someone a cheat!!!!
> 
> It's been well over a year since I had a problem at a particular club that is known for it's less than stellar leadership.... After a shoot, immediately before my score was called a big mouth or 2 said "there's no way anyone could shoot 11 up on this course." I'm glad whomever said it wasn't within arms reach or I may have got my butt whipped.........or not. I about exploded but only said "Get your bow and wallet.....we'll shoot it again!", nobody moved and I immediately left. My score was only 6 or so points higher than my average and most of the targets were 18 - 25 yards AND they had a 'mulligan" target at less than 25 yards! Ironically, I shot with a military man that I had only recently met, he's a member of that club and kept score......... we are now friends and try to shoot together when possible.
> 
> ...


I completely agree! You should never call anyone a cheat because of score. I was at a team shoot one time and the guy I got teamed up withs sight broke and his shooting really suffered! It was a to man team shoot one A level "me" and a B level "him". it was indoor and I am usually good for 310-315 outta 300at this course a 42 yard max. I stepped my game up big time that shoot and shot a 334. well above my average, and if someone would have called me a cheat there would've been a problem. There was an independent scorer and He was amazed cuz he knows how I usually shoot.


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## r302 (Apr 5, 2004)

*Cheating*

Yes, we probably have the same thing happening here in our area too, but we also have a Rangefinder's class and trust me when I tell you, with assigned groups and double scoring there is no cheating in this class.r302


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

I agree that scores fluctuate. I've been having my share of low ones here lately. I'm hoping they will go back up in the near future. :embara:
But , I have been shooting with other than the same people, everytime I shoot a 3D meet. Nothing to hide. 
There was another attempt by the VP today to shoot in the group in question and he was denied again along with a couple other people trying also. 
If I was shooting that good, I woundn't have any trouble showing everyone what I could do. Especially, if I was feeling like everyone wanted me to share it with them. Wouldn't that be the same for you guys and gals? 
"If you don't have anything to hide, then why hide it?"

Right???????


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

r302 said:


> Yes, we probably have the same thing happening here in our area too, but we also have a Rangefinder's class and trust me when I tell you, with assigned groups and double scoring there is no cheating in this class.r302




Aha!!!!..........:mg:

"Assigned groups"

That might just be the answer we are looking for.........


Thanks r302!!!


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!*

Jeasus..............Kill me now!!!!!!!!!! OR this thread!!!!!!!!!!


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## !3DCrazy! (Feb 16, 2009)

How do you go about doing the "assigned groups?" We have been doing the casual registration between certain hours.


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## booboobrady (Jun 21, 2009)

3Dguy said:


> We pretty much know who these persons are and they will probably not get to shoot during this event!!!


Who is going to barr them from shooting ??


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## 3Dguy (Aug 3, 2008)

The people in charge of the shoot. Everyone has already been told that there is to be no rangefinders on the course the day of the shoot or during the week when noone is out there. this is for the $500 shoot, not the regular shoots.


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## treetopflyer (Aug 9, 2008)

The 500$ shoot sounds like a great event! I know me and my buddies are looking forward to it. I think we need to get the info. posted on another thread besides "cheating" to let people know of such a great event. Just my .02$.


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## booboobrady (Jun 21, 2009)

I think yall need to talk, Because i'm hearing 2 diffrent storys on this, I don't care either way, i'm not out there shooting for the money, or trophys. But the more this drags on the worse its going to get. Sounds like the club needs to have a meeting with all present and get this worked out .


:fencing::fencing:


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

I will say it one more time.....MANDATORY GROUP BUSTING. When shooting for awards or official results, groups must be busted...such as the family in question. If they choose not to be busted, they simply shoot for fun and their scores do not count towards the results. 

This would be much easier than assigned groups and what not.....


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## 3Dguy (Aug 3, 2008)

BOOBOO I agree 110% about going to the meeting and talking about what being said and going on. This has gone way to far. I talked to this person today and we have worked out all of our differences and we are going to the club meeting Tues. night @ 7:30 to get to the bottom of all of this. So I am apologizing for everything that may have been said and don't want any hard feelings. So come to the meeting tomorrow night so maybe we can help the club establish a set of rules that everyone will have to go by. Once again I apologize and hopefully this will be the end of this DA#N thread


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## booboobrady (Jun 21, 2009)

I'll be there


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## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

There's only one way to beat this: the club hosting the shoot has to group archers with others they don't know (never 2 archers in a group who are from the same club or town). You assign 2 seperate guys in each group to be scorekeepers. Each one has to sign the other's score card. 

You'll never totally avoid cheating, but if the groups are mixed/heterogenous, you can sure curb fantasy scores.

I don't know why anybody would want to cheat in the first place. What good is a trophy or a medal that I didn't really earn? Could buy them cheaper at the flea market!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

The reason IFAA have double scoring and no buddies shooting together is not only to reduce the chances of cheating but to also protect all Archers from being accused of cheating.

I shot for another association that didn't have double scoring at the time and was accused of cheating just because I put in good scores, it's amazing how one person making those kinds of comments can damage an Archers credibility. They changed to double scoring a few years ago and the chinese whispers about me cheating stopped but I can tell you it's not a nice thing to happen. I would liked to have known who started the rumor as I would have invited them to shoot with me then asked them on what basis they thought I was cheating.

At a National champs I had some guy march up to me out of the woods when I was on the peg about to shoot shouting at me that my Bow was ilegal, I told him to go away and see an comittee official as my Bow had been passed inspection as legal.

I think if anybody has a problem with an Archer they should deal with it openly at the right time with the accused Archer and an shoot official, if you can't do that you should keep your mouth shut.


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Oh yea*



> I think if anybody has a problem with an Archer they should deal with it openly at the right time with the accused Archer and an shoot official, if you can't do that you should keep your mouth shut.


That's what I'm talking about.:thumbs_up


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## Slippy Field (Nov 4, 2005)

arrowslinger#1 said:


> I have waited around for one in particular, He always posts up incredible and shoots late and alone. I don't think any shooter should be able to shoot alone and get their scores accepted!


not if your placing NO. Now me, when I finish 12th out of 35 guys in my class, no one cares.


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