# ASA... Following the rules?



## kgunz11 (Jul 29, 2011)

At the Tuscaloosa ASA, there were 5 targets beyond the max 45 yard distance +1% error. We had 47, 48, & 3 @ 49 yards. ASA expects us to follow the rules but they don't? How hard is it to move a stake up 3 yards? Is this something that the membership thinks is ok?


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## STELLIX (Jun 21, 2006)

Which range? We had a couple 49 yard targets on C and D ranges


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

kgunz11 said:


> At the Tuscaloosa ASA, there were 5 targets beyond the max 45 yard distance +1% error. We had 47, 48, & 3 @ 49 yards. ASA expects us to follow the rules but they don't? How hard is it to move a stake up 3 yards? Is this something that the membership thinks is ok?


That is because the range you shot was not the K45 range . They put K45 on the semi pro range . I'm guessing they didn't bring enough targets or ran out of space for another range .


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Most the time it's right but every once in a while yes there's a few over.we had one a little over 50


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

I was fine with it shooting Known.. If it was Unknown, I would probably feel different..lol


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

kgunz11 said:


> At the Tuscaloosa ASA, there were 5 targets beyond the max 45 yard distance +1% error. We had 47, 48, & 3 @ 49 yards. ASA expects us to follow the rules but they don't? How hard is it to move a stake up 3 yards? Is this something that the membership thinks is ok?


Where in the rules can I find this 1% max distance?

I have always seen max yardage *45 with the * being estimated, but I can't recall ever seeing anything about a +1% error.


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## alligood729 (Mar 25, 2007)

I shot K45 on C and D range.....the targets that were beyond 45 yards did not bother me, we all had to shoot the same ones. Besides...I 12'd the 49 yard leopard....:tongue::tongue:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I don't see the problem. K45 knew they were sharing a range with Semi.... K45 knew their class was big enough to require groups on C&D at the same time so restaking after the first day wouldn't be possible..... K45 is known yardage....

I've also never seen a % margin of error on distances. They are estimated.... and if the "estimate" like I have lately, 4-5 yards off is pretty good


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## Crowell392 (Oct 11, 2012)

What does it matter if everyone in the class has to shoot the same course


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

kgunz11 said:


> At the Tuscaloosa ASA, there were 5 targets beyond the max 45 yard distance +1% error. We had 47, 48, & 3 @ 49 yards. ASA expects us to follow the rules but they don't? How hard is it to move a stake up 3 yards? Is this something that the membership thinks is ok?


ASA does not have a +1% error for the max distance on their ranges. The only + or - variable is on the speed limit.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

reylamb said:


> Where in the rules can I find this 1% max distance?
> 
> I have always seen max yardage *45 with the * being estimated, but I can't recall ever seeing anything about a +1% error.


He wont....lmao


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

I like it when they set some over. Judge it and shoot the thing, everybody has to shoot it. If it was a known class why would it even matter?


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Shooting it known there really shouldnt be any problems. Your using your rangefinder, and everyone has to shoot the same targets...(I shoot known as well)


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> I don't see the problem. K45 knew they were sharing a range with Semi.... K45 knew their class was big enough to require groups on C&D at the same time so restaking after the first day wouldn't be possible..... K45 is known yardage....
> 
> I've also never seen a % margin of error on distances. They are estimated.... and if the "estimate" like I have lately, 4-5 yards off is pretty good


Let me estimate and everyone would be lucky if the targets were within 10 yards of max!!!!!!


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

n2bows said:


> ASA does not have a +1% error for the max distance on their ranges. The only + or - variable is on the speed limit.


This ^



bhtr3d said:


> He wont....lmao


This ^



CMA121885 said:


> Shooting it known there really shouldnt be any problems. Your using your rangefinder, and everyone has to shoot the same targets...(I shoot known as well)


And finally THIS ^

I am amazed that shooters will go to a national event and have no understanding of the rules or the format.


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

Simple solution.... eliminate 45 yard max and make all of them 50 yds max. Most of us shoot them that far locally and at the IBO events anyway....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I hate the fact that there are targets over the max, I wish they would stop doing this because it isn't fair and it just sucks. The group that shoots it first is totally screwed and by the end of the day the last groups have heard arrows crashing though the woods and guys mad and rumors that the target is way over the max and they have a huge advantage over everyone else that shot the target early in the day.

It is not hard for a asa course to be set so that every stinking shot is either at or under the max yardage, they just choose to not care.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last year I watched a good shooter who was shooting good enough to get a podium finish shoot his shot at a mule deer at the classic and he totally shot under for a zero, another guy shot and hit the leg 5 inches under the bottom of the stinking chest and then another one of my group shot a zero. They all looked like they had seen a freaking ghost after shooting the shot, I had listened to at least 4 guys get zeros on the target from other groups as we approached the target and now two of my group have gotten zeros so I knew it was out there. I put 48 yards on my sight and I aimed at the top of the 10 ring thinking that I am in open a and I have a 45 yard max and these guys have probably shot it for 45 or 46 yards and it is more like 48 or 50 yards. So if I use 48 yards and aim at the top of the 10 ring I should hit a 10 on the top if it is 48 and if it is 50 yards I might actually get a 12 when it drops.

I barely hit the target and was within a quarter inch of getting a freaking zero so my arrow had dropped at least a foot under my 48 yard setting, the target was over 50 yards and it cost many people a weekend of good shooting.

This comment that i freaking hear about shoot it for what you see is a bunch of crap, sure I shoot the targets for what I see but I am shooting them thinking that my max is 45 yards so my brain is thinking within those limits. To allow stuff to be over those limits is stinking not ok and needs to stop.


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## Shadowrider13 (Feb 24, 2012)

Don't see the problem myself. K45 is a known class and you can use a rangefinder. My sight tape goes all the way to 100 yards. At these big shoots, you should always be prepared to shoot over the class yardage. On the known 40 range, they gave us a shert of paper that had the range for each target. I just double checked it withy my range finder before shooting. Most were within 1/2 to 1 yard of what the sheet said.


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## Logjamb (May 14, 2008)

Some call it "Fun" when targets are set over the max for a class. I'm with Padgett on this one. If a shooter is expected to follow the rules placed on them { no rangefinder on unknown, no discussing yards, no changing scores, no walking off next target} and many more, then the Compitition Commity should also be held to this level. In Fort Benning, the Open A class was notified before the start that we would be shooting targets "Over Max" by Mike Terrell. Does notifying a group that rules are not followed make it ok? I think not.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Padgett said:


> I hate the fact that there are targets over the max, I wish they would stop doing this because it isn't fair and it just sucks. The group that shoots it first is totally screwed and by the end of the day the last groups have heard arrows crashing though the woods and guys mad and rumors that the target is way over the max and they have a huge advantage over everyone else that shot the target early in the day.
> 
> It is not hard for a asa course to be set so that every stinking shot is either at or under the max yardage, they just choose to not care.


Agreed, that is wrong for an unknown class (although I have seen it) but I think the OP was a known distance class. There, you and each other shooter knows the range so,....


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

why have a K45 class if you're gonna set targets for them that are over 50 yards? if you're gonna do that, do away with the K45 class and just have a K50 class. known or unknown, i don't think the targets should be set beyond the max advertised distance.

if you're gonna have K45 shooting and/or Open A shooting the same ranges as the 50 yard classes, put another set of stakes out. if a local club can do it surely ASA can do it.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Padgett said:


> I hate the fact that there are targets over the max, I wish they would stop doing this because it isn't fair and it just sucks. The group that shoots it first is totally screwed and by the end of the day the last groups have heard arrows crashing though the woods and guys mad and rumors that the target is way over the max and they have a huge advantage over everyone else that shot the target early in the day.
> 
> It is not hard for a asa course to be set so that every stinking shot is either at or under the max yardage, they just choose to not care.


Maybe if folks would stop discussing yardage, like the rules say, other folks wouldn't hear rumors of targets over max......

I tell my kids....life ain't fair, find something else to complain about.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Padgett said:


> Last year I watched a good shooter who was shooting good enough to get a podium finish shoot his shot at a mule deer at the classic and he totally shot under for a zero, another guy shot and hit the leg 5 inches under the bottom of the stinking chest and then another one of my group shot a zero. They all looked like they had seen a freaking ghost after shooting the shot, I had listened to at least 4 guys get zeros on the target from other groups as we approached the target and now two of my group have gotten zeros so I knew it was out there. I put 48 yards on my sight and I aimed at the top of the 10 ring thinking that I am in open a and I have a 45 yard max and these guys have probably shot it for 45 or 46 yards and it is more like 48 or 50 yards. So if I use 48 yards and aim at the top of the 10 ring I should hit a 10 on the top if it is 48 and if it is 50 yards I might actually get a 12 when it drops.
> 
> I barely hit the target and was within a quarter inch of getting a freaking zero so my arrow had dropped at least a foot under my 48 yard setting, the target was over 50 yards and it cost many people a weekend of good shooting.
> 
> This comment that i freaking hear about shoot it for what you see is a bunch of crap, sure I shoot the targets for what I see but I am shooting them thinking that my max is 45 yards so my brain is thinking within those limits. To allow stuff to be over those limits is stinking not ok and needs to stop.


What is crap is your whining.

If you can't look down a lane and see immediately the target is way over your "max" then you deserve whatever you get if you still shoot it for max. If a target looks 51 yards, shoot it for 51....or, as the advice I was given once, if a target looks 51 shoot it for 52 and hold dead nuts on the 12.


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## alligood729 (Mar 25, 2007)

reylamb said:


> What is crap is your whining.
> 
> If you can't look down a lane and see immediately the target is way over your "max" then you deserve whatever you get if you still shoot it for max. If a target looks 51 yards, shoot it for 51....or, as the advice I was given once, if a target looks 51 shoot it for 52 and hold dead nuts on the 12.


I agree. You can never take for granted that max is max, or at least you shouldn't. If you know for certain it's further than what it' supposed to be, estimate the range and give it your best shot. As for the original question, or at what I think was the original question......K45 is just that...known yardage. We all had to shoot the same ranges. I had 5 of my better shots on the longest ones. Even got a 12 on the 49 yd leopard. Let'er fly.....


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

reylamb said:


> What is crap is your whining.
> 
> If you can't look down a lane and see immediately the target is way over your "max" then you deserve whatever you get if you still shoot it for max. If a target looks 51 yards, shoot it for 51....or, as the advice I was given once, if a target looks 51 shoot it for 52 and hold dead nuts on the 12.


That's BS! It's one thing to have a target a yard too long. With basic rangefinders you can set an "accurate" course and the only time they even have to check a target is if it appears it may be near max distance. I really can't understand why a target is 2 or more yards over unless someone is doing it intentionally. If targets are "over" then someone is NOT doing their job properly. There's little excuse for knowingly exceeding the distance limits and ZERO excuses for accepting the shoddy work that one paid for.

In the case of Know distance being over distance I find it less of a problem. At first I thought "so what" but then I realized that people PAID for targets to be no more than 45 yards and maybe that is as far as the paying customer feels comfortable shooting. In that case it's not OK. I shot K45 and I would not have cared if a target (s) was set at 55 yards. BUT I respect that there are archers that would not be comfortable shooting that distance. Soooo, the ASA should deliver what they promise when we pay our fees and definitely let folks know when a special situation arises and the defined class limitations are amended.

Rename the classes Known C, Known B and Known A.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> That's BS! It's one thing to have a target a yard too long. With basic rangefinders you can set an "accurate" course and the only time they even have to check a target is if it appears it may be near max distance. I really can't understand why a target is 2 or more yards over unless someone is doing it intentionally. If targets are "over" then someone is NOT doing their job properly. There's little excuse for knowingly exceeding the distance limits and ZERO excuses for accepting the shoddy work that one paid for.
> 
> In the case of Know distance being over distance I find it less of a problem. At first I thought "so what" but then I realized that people PAID for targets to be no more than 45 yards and maybe that is as far as the paying customer feels comfortable shooting. In that case it's not OK. I shot K45 and I would not have cared if a target (s) was set at 55 yards. BUT I respect that there are archers that would not be comfortable shooting that distance. Soooo, the ASA should deliver what they promise when we pay our fees and definitely let folks know when a special situation arises and the defined class limitations are amended.
> 
> Rename the classes Known C, Known B and Known A.


I shoot Semi Pro and was on the ranges with K45. I'm not a fan of putting groups together that have different max yardages at all. In this case though, at the shooter meeting I attended I am pretty confident that I heard Mike T. warning K45 that they would have targets that were over their max. So, it was sort of a special circumstance except that at most of the other ProAms, Semi Pro has shot with Open A (also a 45 yard max), so it ceases to be a special circumstance when it happens at almost every tournament.

I'm guessing the people that were surprised did not attend the shooter meeting (I believe that the rules say you must attend shooter meeting, please correct me if I'm wrong). So they shouldn't have been surprised, but I also understand being upset when the max yardages are ignored. 

I guess I fall somewhere in the middle.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I don't see why you have Known 40, 45, and 50 anyways. Seems kinda dumb to me. Do away with Known 45, make Known 50 entry feel smaller. Too many classes as it is.


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## kgunz11 (Jul 29, 2011)

OK guys, I was told on the range that there was a 1% +/- deal. I am aware of the speed limit margin for error.

The point is, if you set it in the rules that 45 yards is the max, then you range the target and print out sheets to hand to competitors, and you KNOW it is over the published max distance for that class, why not correct it?

The rules state 45 yard MAXIMUM, ASA knew it was over that, and they made no effort to correct it. Period.

I was 12 up after 10 targets, first shooter on the 11th which was at 49 yards. I blanked the target because a vane came off my arrow on the way to the target and it dipped hard to the left. I'm not blaming ASA for that, I just think that 5 targets set beyond the published max isn't in the rules.

Estimated? How does that apply to a KD course where ASA is using a range finder and printing the results of their findings? What "estimation" is there in that?!?!


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## kgunz11 (Jul 29, 2011)

shootist said:


> I shoot Semi Pro and was on the ranges with K45. I'm not a fan of putting groups together that have different max yardages at all. In this case though, at the shooter meeting I attended I am pretty confident that I heard Mike T. warning K45 that they would have targets that were over their max. So, it was sort of a special circumstance except that at most of the other ProAms, Semi Pro has shot with Open A (also a 45 yard max), so it ceases to be a special circumstance when it happens at almost every tournament.
> 
> I'm guessing the people that were surprised did not attend the shooter meeting (I believe that the rules say you must attend shooter meeting, please correct me if I'm wrong). So they shouldn't have been surprised, but I also understand being upset when the max yardages are ignored.
> 
> I guess I fall somewhere in the middle.


I don't know if anyone was surprised, but you don't have to be surprised to dislike it.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

INMHO, I think the ASA and IBO's image and acceptance would improve if they followed their rules.


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## kgunz11 (Jul 29, 2011)

J Whittington said:


> INMHO, I think the ASA and IBO's image and acceptance would improve if they followed their rules.


+1 I agree


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a good shooter and a good yardage guy so if you send me out on a course and just let me shoot the course I will totally hang with really good shooters all day long guessing and shooting regardless of the yardage.

All I am saying is why in the crap is it ok to say that your max yardage is going to be some designated distance and then stinking put targets out there past that given distance.


HERE IS THE SOLUTION THAT I OFFER

1. The max distance should be 51 yards for pro and Semi Pro classes, the max distance for open a and known 45 and so on should be 46 yards.

2. Then when they set up the courses they should range the stakes and not put a target past 50 or past 45 to allow for variance in the range finder that they are using.

3. The range course official after handing out the score cards on the morning of the shoot while we are sitting there filling out the cards should make one last trip around the course and range each stake and check the yardage with a range finder.

4. Any target that is found to be over the max at that time should be changed before anyone shoots it.

5. If semi pro is going to shoot with open a on the same courses then just put out a second shooting stake on a few stinking targets where you want the semi pro shooters to stretch out to 50 yards. Crap we shoot local shoots all the time with multiple stakes on every shot so it isn't like we can't handle it.

The issue doesn't take much thought or effort to make it right for everyone to get a fair shake for the weekend and making blanket statements like just shoot it for what it looks like isn't good enough.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

And when I say 46 yard max then I mean that the guys setting up the course only setting the course for their range finder to say 45, this allows the range finder to be a little off at the time the course was set and then when the course official checks the range and his range finder shows over 45 yards then he can make the change. This way it has been ranged two times by different range finders and the course is at or under the max.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For those of you guys that called me a whiner my wife is the prosecutor in my county and when the conservation man gives a ticket to a bowhunter when leaving the woods because he was obviously spot lighting deer with the purpose of killing the deer with his little light when he was only using it to hopefully not get lost or get blasted by a gun hunter past shooting hours. My wife and I have the ability to make fair decisions and stand up to to people in charge who have no sense of reality or what is right and wrong. She stands up to the conservation department and does not prosecute guys for walking out of the woods with a small light and she gets blasted from the bullies from the state level all the way down because there are bullies everywhere.

I have had the guts to say in the last couple of weeks that some rules need to vanish because they have no purpose and they are being ignored, We need to have max distance put on ranges and it is not a rule that needs to vanish but at the same time it needs to simply be cleaned up.


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## mjharp46 (May 7, 2012)

The only reason they do that is so you guys will get on here and complain. Remember in the world of publicity there is no good or bad... it's just publicity. Is ASA being talked about? YEP! So if someone reads this do they say, hmm I'm never going to an ASA event because they might, according to certain testimony, set targets beyond the max yardage. If anything people with say I want to see for myself and try it. I disagree with setting beyond max, but I don't think getting on here and complaining is doing anything but making everyone sound like a bunch of toddlers whining about wanting it their way. I cant' find the official ASA complaint department thread, so maybe contact ASA directly. My $0.02.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Padgett said:


> And when I say 46 yard max then I mean that the guys setting up the course only setting the course for their range finder to say 45, this allows the range finder to be a little off at the time the course was set and then when the course official checks the range and his range finder shows over 45 yards then he can make the change. This way it has been ranged two times by different range finders and the course is at or under the max.


The simplest solution is to not mix classes on ranges with differing max yardages, then double check all targets with a rangefinder.

Ever since Semi pro has shot 50 yards max and Open A was changed back to 45......Open A is usually still a 50 yard class since they normally get assigned the range with semi pro.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Padgett said:


> For those of you guys that called me a whiner my wife is the prosecutor in my county and when the conservation man gives a ticket to a bowhunter when leaving the woods because he was obviously spot lighting deer with the purpose of killing the deer with his little light when he was only using it to hopefully not get lost or get blasted by a gun hunter past shooting hours. My wife and I have the ability to make fair decisions and stand up to to people in charge who have no sense of reality or what is right and wrong. She stands up to the conservation department and does not prosecute guys for walking out of the woods with a small light and she gets blasted from the bullies from the state level all the way down because there are bullies everywhere.
> 
> I have had the guts to say in the last couple of weeks that some rules need to vanish because they have no purpose and they are being ignored, We need to have max distance put on ranges and it is not a rule that needs to vanish but at the same time it needs to simply be cleaned up.


Then work on getting the rules changed, not enforcing them opens a Pandoras box....which rules can be ignored? Is pushing a line or pulling a line good enough? The can't adjust sites after glassing a target is silly, let's ignore that one to.

Rather than ignoring any rules, work on getting them clarified or changed.

Let's ignore a shooter taking an extra 10 seconds, no biggie right? So, every shooter in K45 decides they are going to also take an extra 10 seconds because someone else does it......1200 extra seconds on every target adds up, and before you know it we are at 6 hours for 20 targets....but it is only 10 seconds, so no biggie, not a major factor in the final outcome of a shoot, but would be pure misery for everyone.

Who gets to decide which rules to ignore and which to enforce? Is it up to the group? Why have rules?

I think it is scarier that you are having any say in any prosecutions in your county since you are apparently not the DA, your wife is.........you should have no input, no nothing in the court system, and certainly shouldn't have "the ability to make fair decisions" for the courts.


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## kgunz11 (Jul 29, 2011)

The squad next to us had a guy routinely take 2+ minutes on every single shot. We joked about it amongst ourselves, but never said anything to the guy. The rules state you have 1 minute from the time you hit the stake unless you're first shooter. This guy was holding up most of range at times.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah you are right my wife is god and nobody should tell her when she is wrong and nobody should have her back and stand up for her. Secondly I have talked to the range officials on many occasions just standing around about the rules and I am only a 3rd year asa shooter so I am still learning the rules and don't feel like it is my time to dive in and become a deciding factor in rule making.

The asa shooters that have been around for a while only shooting and know the ropes are the ones who should step up and get more involved, in a few more years when I have become very well versed in how things should be done is when I will become more vocal and involved. Now is not the time.

Now is the time to be vocal on a forum where we discuss archery and 3d and equipment, I am not a staff shooter for any brand and I discuss equipment that I have used and how it works for me and I have no little baby staff contract telling me what I can and can't say. I also am married to the most powerful woman in my county and I am her partner and we have each others back and she puts me in my place and I put her in hers. There are very few people who lead their life as clean and happy as I live mine and when I go to sleep at night I don't need a pill to make my poor decisions go away so that I can dream about smoking a 12 ring for a asa win.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Padgett said:


> Yeah you are right my wife is god and nobody should tell her when she is wrong and nobody should have her back and stand up for her. Secondly I have talked to the range officials on many occasions just standing around about the rules and I am only a 3rd year asa shooter so I am still learning the rules and don't feel like it is my time to dive in and become a deciding factor in rule making.
> 
> The asa shooters that have been around for a while only shooting and know the ropes are the ones who should step up and get more involved, in a few more years when I have become very well versed in how things should be done is when I will become more vocal and involved. Now is not the time.
> 
> Now is the time to be vocal on a forum where we discuss archery and 3d and equipment, I am not a staff shooter for any brand and I discuss equipment that I have used and how it works for me and I have no little baby staff contract telling me what I can and can't say. I also am married to the most powerful woman in my county and I am her partner and we have each others back and she puts me in my place and I put her in hers. There are very few people who lead their life as clean and happy as I live mine and when I go to sleep at night I don't need a pill to make my poor decisions go away so that I can dream about smoking a 12 ring for a asa win.


The law and the courts should tell her when she is wrong....you should never have any input on any criminal matters in any way shape or form. I am willing to bet if defense attorneys caught wind of any of that they would have a field day....but that is neither here nor there.

The Ironic part is that I have run across a bunch of range officials that didn't know the rules. I argued for a guy once in Augusta. He shot, his arrow hit the target somewhere in the 12 ring area and bounce back out, and he was the leadoff shooter so he couldn't have hit another arrow. 2 guys in his group said 0, 1 guy said no the rule says it can be up to a 10....they got the range official and he said 0.....I walked over with the rules and showed them the shooter could get up to a 10 if the entire group agreed on where the arrow originally hit. Unfortunately, some of the range officials need to study the rules much better than they do.

First year shooter or 30th year shooter, doesn't matter. Mike will listen to anyone with ideas on how to make his product better.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

reylamb said:


> Then work on getting the rules changed, not enforcing them opens a Pandoras box....which rules can be ignored? Is pushing a line or pulling a line good enough? The can't adjust sites after glassing a target is silly, let's ignore that one to.
> 
> Rather than ignoring any rules, work on getting them clarified or changed.
> 
> ...


Your math of additional 10 seconds doesnt compute - since they all shoot at the same time it would not add them up consecutively.....since there are 6 to a stake, 20 stakes if they all took an additional 10 seconds would add 60 seconds to the stake. Or 20 minutes additional..... just sayin


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> I don't see why you have Known 40, 45, and 50 anyways. Seems kinda dumb to me. Do away with Known 45, make Known 50 entry feel smaller. Too many classes as it is.


Sage break down all your classes at your 3d and see how that works for you. Having class's for archers to grow and expand is good for participation. 
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> I don't see why you have Known 40, 45, and 50 anyways. Seems kinda dumb to me. Do away with Known 45, make Known 50 entry feel smaller. Too many classes as it is.





Daniel Boone said:


> Sage break down all your classes at your 3d and see how that works for you. Having class's for archers to grow and expand is good for participation.
> DB


Generally clubs around here either combine all the Known classes into one or don't have a Know distance class for local shoots.

I know why some folks want to combine K45 and K50 at the national shoots. The reason is to give the K50 guys more money to win. It also seems those that would like to see K45 and K50 merged are not actually proponents of Known distance 3D. BUT it wouldn't work because most of the folks currently shooting K45 would NOT continue shooting that class if the entry fee went way up AND premier archers were allowed to shoot in it. It makes no sense to destroy the goose that is right now producing the ASA's golden egg.

I don't understand why the ASA turned Open C into K40 if they believe unmarked 3D will continue being "THE" 3D game. By creating K40 you are directly pointing newbie 3D'ers towards Known distance 3D. However, if it proves productive for the ASA then I'm all for it.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to one day see a Pro Known class but K45 and K50 need to pretty much stay aligned as they currently are. IF folks do well in K50 and stay in that class it will eventually have a solid participation level even if it never becomes as financially supported by sponsors as the current Pro class and that should be OK.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

I think it would be fun if they set one 60 yards , men from the boys


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Wouldn't it be just as easy to set a course "short" as it is to set it "long"?

For example, if they determine that because of the number of participants that Known 45, Open A, and Limited will have to shoot the same course as Semi, then why not set the Semi course at 45 and lower?

So the Semi guys will post higher scores....so what? I would think it would be better to have 50 Semi Pro guys shoot an easy course than to have 300 guys shoot a course they weren't prepared for, unknown or known.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

JimmyP said:


> I think it would be fun if they set one 60 yards , men from the boys


Interesting. So sending a Hail Mary at a target you have no clue how far it is and getting lucky to hit it makes a man out of a boy? I should try it.........:wink:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

rattlinman said:


> Wouldn't it be just as easy to set a course "short" as it is to set it "long"?
> 
> For example, if they determine that because of the number of participants that Known 45, Open A, and Limited will have to shoot the same course as Semi, then why not set the Semi course at 45 and lower?
> 
> So the Semi guys will post higher scores....so what? I would think it would be better to have 50 Semi Pro guys shoot an easy course than to have 300 guys shoot a course they weren't prepared for, unknown or known.


Then the semis complain that their ranges aren't preparing them for Pro...


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> Generally clubs around here either combine all the Known classes into one or don't have a Know distance class for local shoots.
> 
> I know why some folks want to combine K45 and K50 at the national shoots. The reason is to give the K50 guys more money to win. It also seems those that would like to see K45 and K50 merged are not actually proponents of Known distance 3D. BUT it wouldn't work because most of the folks currently shooting K45 would NOT continue shooting that class if the entry fee went way up AND premier archers were allowed to shoot in it. It makes no sense to destroy the goose that is right now producing the ASA's golden egg.
> 
> ...


Believe me. There was no monumental decision making process involved in converting Open C to all known distance. At last years state directors meeting in Cullman we were discussing the new Sr. Hunter class that we ran very successfully here in Texas in 2013. We all agreed the Sr. Hunter class would do well at the Pro/Am level. Mike Tyrell then said "What do you all think about making Open C all known"? He said he felt it would be a natural progression for the known distance shooters. The men can go Bow Novice (all known), Open C (all known), K45 (all known), K50 (all known). The women can go Women's Hunter (all known), Women's K40 (all known), Women's K45 (all known). We said that makes sense and sounds great. Lets do it. Done deal.

ASA certainly and quite obviously knows that the known distance element is very popular with the shooters and very important to ASA's success. On the other hand ASA gives the shooters a lot of choices and the opportunity for shooters to find their comfort level whether it be in a known distance class, a 1/2 and 1/2 class or an all unknown class. If shooters feel that they have a chance to compete they will come back. They have not only come back, but come back in record numbers. 

ASA has 34 shooting classes. 12 classes shoot all unknown distance, 11 classes shoot all known distance, and 11 classes shoot 1/2 known distance and 1/2 unknown distance.


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