# IBO rules suck if you are a short draw archer.



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Am I the only one that sees that short draw archers are discriminated against using IBO rules? Why do I have to shoot 40-50fps slower than someone shooting 31-30" draw? Can anyone give me a reason?I don't want to hear it's the archer that makes the difference. miss judge a shot by five yards on a 50 yard target. 40-50 fps makes quite a bit of difference.:fuming:


----------



## 57Loader (Nov 27, 2008)

LOL. Did you just get back from Dragoon?


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

yup!


----------



## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree thats why I quit shooting ibo. They should a a speed limit like asa. I only have a 26'' draw:sad:


----------



## A.j. (Sep 30, 2004)

Just because you don't agree with it means that it should be changed.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I hear 'ya.......... I have a 26" draw. I like shooting IBO targets since it makes since to me to center the ten ring. But I have to have my stuff tuned real well to even break 282 fps.

If you miss judge a target for 38 yards when it's 40 yards the difference in drop over 2 yards between a 285 fps arrow and a 300 fps arrow is VERY little. Of course every little bit counts especially when shooting against the very best. The difference between 285 and 315 with a 3 yard error at 45 can be serious.

On the flip side.... there are many calling for ASA to raise the speed limit. There are IBO archers that really don't like the ASA game because of the speed limit. If the speed limit was upped Levi and the like would still win. :wink: At least in IBO when joe stud monkey can't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag he can at least brag about shooting 330 fps.


----------



## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> I hear 'ya.......... I have a 26" draw. I like shooting IBO targets since it makes since to me to center the ten ring. But I have to have my stuff tuned real well to even break 282 fps.
> 
> If you miss judge a target for 38 yards when it's 40 yards the difference in drop over 2 yards between a 285 fps arrow and a 300 fps arrow is VERY little. Of course every little bit counts especially when shooting against the very best. The difference between 285 and 315 with a 3 yard error at 45 can be serious.
> 
> On the flip side.... there are many calling for ASA to raise the speed limit. There are IBO archers that really don't like the ASA game because of the speed limit. If the speed limit was upped Levi and the like would still win. :wink: At least in IBO when joe stud monkey can't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag he can at least brag about shooting 330 fps.


You hit it on the head when you said "tuned real well" which My 3D bow is 29" draw, shooting at 271 the way I have it tuned and it shoots best at that FPS without wearing me out. The cream 3D shooters are always going to rise above the whiners anyway, no matter what speed they shoot. :wink:

When were you at Manahoac? I was there Sunday 8:30. It took 4 hours to shoot 30 targets and I didn't take my stool.


----------



## gjstudt (Nov 14, 2005)

*IBO? ASA? Either way your at a disadvantage*



russdiggins said:


> Am I the only one that sees that short draw archers are discriminated against using IBO rules? Why do I have to shoot 40-50fps slower than someone shooting 31-30" draw? Can anyone give me a reason?I don't want to hear it's the archer that makes the difference. miss judge a shot by five yards on a 50 yard target. 40-50 fps makes quite a bit of difference.:fuming:



Why only cry about IBO rules? Your at a disadvantage from you train of thought either ASA or IBO.

So what your 26". If you only going 280 in the IBO that is your own fault. Many bows will do close to 300 or more at that draw.

How about you 26"incher and a 31" draw on a 25 yard ASA target. Your still shooting a smaller arrow without much point weight going 280. The 31" draw guy is shooting a big ol fat shaft and 200 grains going 280. Who has the bigger 12 ring to shoot out.

GUESS WHAT! IT ISN'T you again. Don't just blame the IBO that is not fair. Don't blame the ASA either for the 31" guys shooting big arrows with great point weight and FOC.

FYI I'm a short draw guy as well. I shoot IBO and ASA where possible. Why because I like to shoot my bow and compete no matter what the rules are.

If you don't like it don't shoot it! It's that simple.

FYI one of the 1st ever perfect 400 scores in the IBO was shot by a 26-27" draw guy.

FYI in the IBO all the Pros with long draws don't all shoot stupid fast. Some are still shooting 280-300 even though they have long draw lengths.

Shoot what you got and be Happy.


----------



## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

You can also use the bow as an example of this. At my draw length (about 29.5), you may be shooting the same speed as me in the ASA, but I'll be doing 280 with a 8.5 inch brace height target bow.


----------



## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

run what ya brung 

dont worry about the other guy/gal. Its just a ribbon 

strive to shoot YOUR personal best, forget the rest. my .02


----------



## bowman_77 (May 4, 2009)

trapperDave said:


> run what ya brung
> 
> dont worry about the other guy/gal. Its just a ribbon
> 
> strive to shoot YOUR personal best, forget the rest. my .02


very well put.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

gjstudt said:


> Why only cry about IBO rules? Your at a disadvantage from you train of thought either ASA or IBO.
> 
> So what your 26". If you only going 280 in the IBO that is your own fault. Many bows will do close to 300 or more at that draw.
> 
> ...


 What kind of crap is FYI dont shoot.It's that simple. I want to know why you think that I should be held at a dissadvantage? I told you I dont want to hear about the 22" archer that won a shoot. I am talking about equality. I shoot ibo because that is all there is in arizona. I know, I should quit my job and go live where I can shoot what I want. Does anyone have any educated suggestions? When you are shooting for score every little bit counts. 1" is the difference between a 5 or a 10, not equal.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> I hear 'ya.......... I have a 26" draw. I like shooting IBO targets since it makes since to me to center the ten ring. But I have to have my stuff tuned real well to even break 282 fps.
> 
> If you miss judge a target for 38 yards when it's 40 yards the difference in drop over 2 yards between a 285 fps arrow and a 300 fps arrow is VERY little. Of course every little bit counts especially when shooting against the very best. The difference between 285 and 315 with a 3 yard error at 45 can be serious.
> 
> On the flip side.... there are many calling for ASA to raise the speed limit. There are IBO archers that really don't like the ASA game because of the speed limit. If the speed limit was upped Levi and the like would still win. :wink: At least in IBO when joe stud monkey can't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag he can at least brag about shooting 330 fps.


Very good post Kent.
ASA will not change their speed limit so they can call all they want.:wink:
I look at it this way if you dont like the rules of one organization then shoot the other.If you cant be happy with either then why bother just stay home.I could careless what the guys in my group are shooting.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> What kind of crap is FYI dont shoot.It's that simple. I want to know why you think that I should be held at a dissadvantage? I told you I dont want to hear about the 22" archer that won a shoot. I am talking about equality. I shoot ibo because that is all there is in arizona. I know, I should quit my job and go live where I can shoot what I want. Does anyone have any educated suggestions? When you are shooting for score every little bit counts. 1" is the difference between a 5 or a 10, not equal.


here is your answer cause these rules have been there for years.
JUST LEARN HOW TO JUDGE BETTER.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> here is your answer cause these rules have been there for years.
> JUST LEARN HOW TO JUDGE BETTER.


Like I said educated! So I assume you judge yardage perfect? I asked the question about equality. I judge just fine, not perfect like you buddy! So again why do I have to shoot 40-50 fps slower than long draw archers?


----------



## krud (Jun 2, 2009)

Treeman65, that is the name of the game


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

People thought that the world was flat. They were wrong! Because it has been that way for ever! When were those rules wrote? The geometry of the draw curve wasn't even discovered when those rules were wrote. Never mind. This question is to complex to ask here.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> Like I said educated! So I assume you judge yardage perfect? I asked the question about equality. I judge just fine, not perfect like you buddy! So again why do I have to shoot 40-50 fps slower than long draw archers?


well when the tears stop blinding you.I only have a 28'' draw so if I went to IBO(which I do sometimes) I would be shooting slower. But I dont get all wanded up and want rule changes because of it.For your info I do not judge perfect but am not afraid to get out and try to make it better.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

krud said:


> Treeman65, that is the name of the game


thank you very much.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> People thought that the world was flat. They were wrong! Because it has been that way for ever! When were those rules wrote? The geometry of the draw curve wasn't even discovered when those rules were wrote. Never mind. This question is to complex to ask here.


I take it you go your rear kicked this weekend so sorry. I did to on sunday and it was nobodies fault but my own.I guess I should whine about ASA having a 14 ring cause I dont really like them.
Oh I did win on saturday tho because I shot a smart game instead of chancing it.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> well when the tears stop blinding you.I only have a 28'' draw so if I went to IBO(which I do sometimes) I would be shooting slower. But I dont get all wanded up and want rule changes because of it.For your info I do not judge perfect but am not afraid to get out and try to make it better.


Tears? If you are such a wonderful archer then you shouldn't care what weight arrow I shoot. By your own account It doesn't make a difference, so why have a rule that holds short draw archers at a disadvantage?


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> Tears? If you are such a wonderful archer then you shouldn't care what weight arrow I shoot. By your own account It doesn't make a difference, so why have a rule that holds short draw archers at a disadvantage?


I could careless what weight arrow you shoot.As a matter of fact if you decide to go under 5 gpi I will even pray for your safety.Basicly because the guy shooting 330 fps can be beat just as easily as the guy shoot 280.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> I take it you go your rear kicked this weekend so sorry. I did to on sunday and it was nobodies fault but my own.I guess I should whine about ASA having a 14 ring cause I dont really like them.
> Oh I did win on saturday tho because I shot a smart game instead of chancing it.


 No one beat me this week end I beat myself. I'm not afraid to say I shot bad. I did have to change all my equipment so I would be legal and keep everyone from complaining if I had shot good. The guy that did win shoots 370fps. I shot 320fps. It makes a difference. All I am saying is why cant I shoot the same speed and be legal? What does it hurt? Equality???


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Basicly what you are asking for is impossible without a rule change.Anyone that knows anything about archery knows that a 30'' draw is going to be faster than a 28''.
Do you think you are the only person that has a short draw or shoots slower than the next guy? I would not be scared to put my 278 fps up against yours or anyone elses 320 fps.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

this is my last post of this sensless post.

BY the way I tried out for the NBA but at 5'9'' I got crushed by someone that was 6'7'' in tryouts.I am now sueing NBA cause they will not put a hieght limit on the players.:wink:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> Basicly what you are asking for is impossible without a rule change.Anyone that knows anything about archery knows that a 30'' draw is going to be faster than a 28''.
> Do you think you are the only person that has a short draw or shoots slower than the next guy? I would not be scared to put my 278 fps up against yours or anyone elses 320 fps.


 No I don't, but why must we be held at a disadvantage? Changing the rules to make all archers equitable is wrong? If it doesnt matter then whats all the fuss about? If it doesnt matter how fast I shoot then whats the problem? What happens when you shoot your 278fps against a archer equally skilled shooting 320? You loose because you shoot a shorter draw. If you can shoot you can shoot. A bad shot at 278fps is just as bad of a shot at 500fps. But a misjudged shot on a 50 yard target puts you out by a larger margin the slower you shoot. Physics!


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> this is my last post of this sensless post.
> 
> BY the way I tried out for the NBA but at 5'9'' I got crushed by someone that was 6'7'' in tryouts.I am now sueing NBA cause they will not put a hieght limit on the players.:wink:


You are comparing archery and basketball? No wonder you are having trouble understanding my point.


----------



## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

Even though I don't think that is far unfortunately I was born short and small framed I can't help it that's just the way I was born. Even though I have a 26'' draw and only shoot about 250-260fps I have won the state IBO in the mbr division I just had to be spot on with yardage judgment and make a good shot. I started shooting field archery instead because it's more on even playing ground no guess work on distance just have to make a good shot. Enjoyed it more,able to shoot a lot more arrows per round 112 shots anywhere from 20' to 80 yards. give it a try you might like it, very humbling experience.


----------



## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

I am a pretty poor judge of yardage myself, but I think the IBO, and ASA have it right. ASA has speed limits and IBO doesn't. You have a choice to shoot either and try and understand that both have flaws and might slightly favor one guy over the other. I would like to see half of all the shoots be marked yards!!!!! :embara: It would give newbies that are great shots a better chance. In the end that way the best shot wins sometimes not just the best judge of yardage. I guess my point is we all have a specific set of conditions, and is your DL being short any different to a 400lb man who can't hike through the woods? Its all a game unless it is your profession. :wink:


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

Sorry I got sucked into this thread lol but here goes. I am very curious as to what you propose to make it equitable, there is always going to be some discrepancy no matter what you do. If you shoot a lighter arrow, the long arm guy will be able to shoot a fatter arrow giving him an advantage, or a heavier point to give him a better front of center. I just don't know what you propose for the folks at IBO to do to help you. There are several areas where the rules are what they are, take golf for instance. A woman can play on the PGA but a man cannot play on the LPGA. Thats not fair either do you think? How about you state what you propose and then we can have a discussion.
Chris


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

FitaX10 said:


> sorry i guess i got sucked into this post. What would you like to do? I am afraid that with your shot draw it will never be equal. You jsut don't generate the same energy and draw cycle. You will never be able to shoot the same size arrows or create the same speed as the guy with gorrilla arms, and nothing you say will help that. I am curious as to what you do propose to do to make it equitable tho. Would you care to post?
> Chris


I can shoot the same speed all day long last year when AZ didn't have IBO rules, by shooting a lighter arrow. I know what you are going to say less than 5gpi? Yes and I didn't hurt myself or anyone else for that matter. What I propose is allow the short draw archer to match the speed of a long draw archer by shooting 3.5 to 4gpi arrows. With the technology of today's arrows, strings, risers, cams, limb materials 1.5gpi isn't causing any more problems with safety than 5gpi. Not to exceed the manufactures IBO speed of a 30" or 31" archers bow. Now we are all equal.


----------



## NormPaul (Jan 5, 2005)

*I'm fine with the rules!!!*

I shoot 26.5 inch draw length and have no problem with the way the rules are. It just makes me have to work harder and earn my points. I like a challenge and this makes me more of a complete archer because I can adapt to the situation or I won't be as competitive. In our neck of the woods we have an archer that only has one arm. He draws the bow with his teeth and still competes with those of us that have full use of all of our extremeties. He is competetive with just about anyone out there and doesn't complain about the conditions he deals with. For those reason I support leaving as is.

Norm


----------



## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

I just don't understand where the mindset comes from that it has to be "fair". There are people of varying athletic abilities and varying sizes and some will be good at some things and others not so good. You either choose to play the sports that you are good at and do well or you can also choose the sports that you are not so good at but its still fun to play nonetheless. I really just don't see why everybody thinks that every thing in this world has to be fair. The world is not fair and if the truth be told everything shouldn't have to be fair. That's just the way it is.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

VeroShooter said:


> I just don't understand where the mindset comes from that it has to be "fair". There are people of varying athletic abilities and varying sizes and some will be good at some things and others not so good. You either choose to play the sports that you are good at and do well or you can also choose the sports that you are not so good at but its still fun to play nonetheless. I really just don't see why everybody thinks that every thing in this world has to be fair. The world is not fair and if the truth be told everything shouldn't have to be fair. That's just the way it is.


So why have rules if let the best man win is what you believe? I would love to hear your answer for this?


----------



## bowman_77 (May 4, 2009)

Sound like to me that there needs to be a rule just like ASA has, set a certain speed and go with it 280 or 300 fps. Then the short draws and long draws both can play. Then what would you have to complain about.


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

well i like the idea of shooting the same speed but what are you going to do about the arrow size? or the FOC? Just asking cause there are folks that think that would be unfair as well. Your thoughts?


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

bowman_77 said:


> Sound like to me that there needs to be a rule just like ASA has, set a certain speed and go with it 280 or 300 fps. Then the short draws and long draws both can play. Then what would you have to complain about.


NOTHING! All would be equal. I would shoot asa if we had that option is AZ. But IBO is bias to long draw archers.


----------



## Ms.Sapphire (Dec 15, 2004)

treeman65 said:


> here is your answer cause these rules have been there for years.
> JUST LEARN HOW TO JUDGE BETTER.


I agree.... 

I have a friend with a 24 inch draw shooting 230-240 fps. She WINS National IBO shoots! Yeah, it sucks that she's only shooting 230, but she shoots it awesome. 

If you actually practice more (i.e. - judging yardage without your equipment, working on your form, etc) maybe the difference wouldn't matter to you as much as it does now.


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

How is that equal? If I shoot an ACE to get that speed and a long draw archer shoots a 27/12 to get that same speed how is that equal and fair?


----------



## bowman_77 (May 4, 2009)

It just boils down to this, you can't satisfy everybody all the time. Whats fair for one guy isn't fair for another. Someone will always complain.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Ms.Sapphire said:


> I agree....
> 
> I have a friend with a 24 inch draw shooting 230-240 fps. She WINS National IBO shoots! Yeah, it sucks that she's only shooting 230, but she shoots it awesome.
> 
> If you actually practice more (i.e. - judging yardage without your equipment, working on your form, etc) maybe the difference wouldn't matter to you as much as it does now.


Rules still put her at a disadvantage.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I've never been able to understand the IBO rule. I know it has some kind of goofy grain per pound rule or some such. But then I read it and it makes reference to 280 fps.

BTW I think it is a bit foolish to compare one sport to another. The rules for all sports come about as a result of years of competition...and all sports have rules that try to level the playing field so that more people can compete on an equal basis. 

I shoot at 284 fps with a 27.5 draw with a bow set at 50 pounds and an arrow that's 27 inches and weighs 266 gr. I step up to the line with guys shooting over 300 and I say let the good times roll.

BTW, what was that guy shootin' that he was gettin' 374 fps???


----------



## goofyswife2788 (Jun 5, 2008)

NormPaul said:


> I shoot 26.5 inch draw length and have no problem with the way the rules are. It just makes me have to work harder and earn my points. I like a challenge and this makes me more of a complete archer because I can adapt to the situation or I won't be as competitive. In our neck of the woods we have an archer that only has one arm. He draws the bow with his teeth and still competes with those of us that have full use of all of our extremeties. He is competetive with just about anyone out there and doesn't complain about the conditions he deals with. For those reason I support leaving as is.
> 
> Norm



I have a 26' draw length and shoot 50lbs. My FPS is 289. Hard to believe? Well its true! With the right bow tuning and arrow weight you would be surprised what you can get out of todays bows. I dont have an issue at all with meeting the IBO rules. ASA now is a different story. I certainly don't want to change my bow to shoot slower, now that I have it going 289. SO, I improvise. I buy another bow and set it up for ASA. Ok now problem solved! GAME ON!


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

russdiggins said:


> *The guy that did win shoots 370 fps*./QUOTE]
> 
> 
> :mg::mg::mg:
> ...


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

FitaX10 said:


> How is that equal? If I shoot an ACE to get that speed and a long draw archer shoots a 27/12 to get that same speed how is that equal and fair?


 At least the option is there. It's amazing I just found all the best shooters in each of their states.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

omen


----------



## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> NOTHING! All would be equal. I would shoot asa if we had that option is AZ. But IBO is bias to long draw archers.


I didn't say we didn't need rules. I just meant that some people don't have the physical qualifications to compete in some things and that organizations should not have to account for those who don't. I myself am a short draw archer and have to accomodate myself to the orgs not the other way around.


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

russdiggins said:


> At least the option is there. It's amazing I just found all the best shooters in each of their states.


At least *WHAT* option is there? Is it fair or not? I never claimed to shoot good at all so I hope that wasn't directed at me. I think they should change the rules to state that all shooters must use the same bow and the same arrow as everyone else as well as shoot the same draw length, now that would make it fair don't you think?


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

FitaX10 said:


> well i like the idea of shooting the same speed but what are you going to do about the arrow size? or the FOC? Just asking cause there are folks that think that would be unfair as well. Your thoughts?


 FOC is way over rated, I don't want to get into why but in my opinion it is, so is arrow spine. I shoot field and there aren't rules like this to limit people. If light arrows with no FOC shoot good what do others care what your spine is or foc? If everyone is correct and I am wrong then I wont be anyone to compete with anyways. My spine is to week and my foc is not enough. So why bother with what arrow I am shooting. But at least I have the option.


----------



## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> So why have rules if let the best man win is what you believe? I would love to hear your answer for this?


Oops I used the wrong quote in my above post.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

VeroShooter said:


> I didn't say we didn't need rules. I just meant that some people don't have the physical qualifications to compete in some things and that organizations should not have to account for those who don't. I myself am a short draw archer and have to accomodate myself to the orgs not the other way around.


So it is just fine when you cant see the 10 ring because some guy 6'6 put the targets up? To bad short guy find a new sport that caters to small people. I hope you like going fast on horses.


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

russdiggins said:


> FOC is way over rated, I don't want to get into why but in my opinion it is, so is arrow spine. I shoot field and there aren't rules like this to limit people. If light arrows with no FOC shoot good what do others care what your spine is or foc? If everyone is correct and I am wrong then I wont be anyone to compete with anyways. My spine is to week and my foc is not enough. So why bother with what arrow I am shooting. But at least I have the option.


there is a speed limit rule in NFAA field and in FITA field there is a poundage limit so i guess those organizations are out to get the little guy as well. So spine and FOC don't really matter? I guess the engineers are jsut wasting their time with all that hoohaa. What about arrow diameter? does that matter? It makes the scoring rings bigger for the fatter arrow than the skinny arrow or am I way off base here


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

FitaX10 said:


> there is a speed limit rule in NFAA field and in FITA field there is a poundage limit so i guess those organizations are out to get the little guy as well. So spine and FOC don't really matter? I guess the engineers are jsut wasting their time with all that hoohaa. What about arrow diameter? does that matter? It makes the scoring rings bigger for the fatter arrow than the skinny arrow or am I way off base here


I stand corrected on the speed limit of nfaa field, but the distances are known so the error is in the shooters ability or lack there of. How does short and limits on poundage apply? Engineers also make cars that have to have the body removed to change the spark plugs that they engineered to last 100,000 miles. Don't put so much faith in engineers. Arrow diameter has nothing to do with the size of the 10 ring. It may aid cutting a line but it also catches more wind outdoors. Arrow size is a big deal indoors but everyone is capable of shooting them. They don't just let long draw archers shoot fat shafts.


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

russdiggins said:


> I stand corrected on the speed limit of nfaa field, but the distances are known so the error is in the shooters ability or lack there of. How does short and limits on poundage apply? Engineers also make cars that have to have the body removed to change the spark plugs that they engineered to last 100,000 miles. Don't put so much faith in engineers. Arrow diameter has nothing to do with the size of the 10 ring. It may aid cutting a line but it also catches more wind outdoors. Arrow size is a big deal indoors but everyone is capable of shooting them. They don't just let long draw archers shoot fat shafts.


Short draw archers cannot shoot as fast as longer draw archers with bows set at the same weight so that is how that applies. And arrow diameter has everything to do with how big the 10 ring is jsut the same as how it makes the X ring bigger indoors. If that wasnt an advantage then shooters wouldnt shoot them and the indoor organizations wouldnt put a limit on how big they could be. Which to my limited knowldege is every organization to include ASA. I put alot of faith in engineers as they make things easier (for the most part) and make my life better. Without engineers we wouldnt be having any conversation about compound bows to begin with LOL


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

That's funny, I'm a engineer.


----------



## slamdam (Oct 10, 2006)

get a faster bow or *LEARN HOW TO JUDGE YARDAGE!!!!!*


----------



## SteveID (May 6, 2008)

russdiggins said:


> No one beat me this week end I beat myself. I'm not afraid to say I shot bad. I did have to change all my equipment so I would be legal and keep everyone from complaining if I had shot good. The guy that did win shoots 370fps. I shot 320fps. It makes a difference. All I am saying is why cant I shoot the same speed and be legal? What does it hurt? Equality???


If long draw archers have the speed advantage, then short draw archers have the forgiveness advantage. My bow at 31" with a 7" brace isn't nearly as forgiving as a 26" draw with a 7" brace, I guess those guys should have to shoot a 2" brace height so everything can be equal. 

And if you're really shooting 320 fps, what are you worried about anyways? You're already plenty fast enough. I seriously doubt that Levi Morgan's IBO set up is going that fast. I know mine is barely that fast at 31" draw.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Now I understand why our country is like it is. What works for me should work for everyone. This is what I do so everyone should do it my way. How dare any one question anything. It's in a book so it must be true. I rarely see anyone give anyone any good advice on here just criticism. Learn how to judge yardage, speed doesn't matter, etc... Thanks for the help. P.S. A 2" circle is 2" regardless of how big a shaft/arrow is. I'm done with this one.


----------



## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

mag41vance said:


> You hit it on the head when you said "tuned real well" which My 3D bow is 29" draw, shooting at 271 the way I have it tuned and it shoots best at that FPS without wearing me out. The cream 3D shooters are always going to rise above the whiners anyway, no matter what speed they shoot. :wink:
> 
> When were you at Manahoac? I was there Sunday 8:30. It took 4 hours to shoot 30 targets and I didn't take my stool.


You were there???  so was I.. Its my club.... Short woman, big mouth.... I'm hard to miss unless you're a girafee! :chortle:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

You are correct a 2" circle is still a 2" circle however that 2" circle is can be touched from a lot further away with a fat shaft that with a skinny shaft so it in reality takes a better shot to hit it with a smaller shaft making the circle appear bigger with a fatter shaft was all i was trying to say. As for criticisim, i hope you didnt take any of what i have said as criticisim or slam or flame whatever you want to call it. I was playing devil's advocate and asking how you thought it would be better. Physical limitations are jsut that LIMITATIONS. No ones fault not blaming anyone or thing. If you have a better idea on how to make it fair then i am all for it. You play golf so you understand that about limitations, its not fair there either but whats a fella to do. Love to hear your thoughts.
Chris
PS i never said to judge better or that speed doesnt matter (it matters a great deal) I agree everyone should be on the same starting gound but dont know how to make it fully fair.


----------



## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

Some guys have a natural ability to judge yardage that I simply don't have. Should I insist on marked yardage? 

I really struggle to shoot pins after years and years of hunting with a one pin slider. Should I insist IBO allows sliders in the hunter class?

I want to shoot from 50yrds but I want to use my hunting bow. Should I insist they don't allow long stabs, lenses and fancy sights in MBO?

I never ever get fatigued on the 3d range when I drop my bow to 65#. Should the guy that can only draw 50# insist on a 50# DW limit. I mean heck, in the HC with inserts and screw in points there are very few arrows to choose from that can get you to 5gr per pound for speed yet I have lots of arrow choices.

I am sure that every single person that shoots IBO has made a concession somewhere outside their comfort level to conform with the rules. Why don't you do the same. As stated earlier, life's not fair.

And FYI, I've played the speed game. I even had a bow that shot 338fps....and you know what...I've found that a more controlled and forgiving 295-300fps has really made my scores improve dramatically. With today's bows you should have no problem getting one to shoot those speeds which are plenty fast.

The grass is always appears greener on the other side until you cross the fence and find yourself stepping around dog pooh that made it so green.

Oh yeah, and I'm a lefty so even finding a bow to shoot can be a challenge at times so the short draw thing doesn't get much sympathy from me:darkbeer:


----------



## ewellman (Aug 5, 2009)

Isn't the whole idea of a 3d shoot based on judging yardage. The person who judges yardage the best wins. Plain and simple.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

russdiggins said:


> No one beat me this week end I beat myself. I'm not afraid to say I shot bad. I did have to change all my equipment so I would be legal and keep everyone from complaining if I had shot good. The guy that did win shoots 370fps. *I shot 320fps*. It makes a difference. All I am saying is why cant I shoot the same speed and be legal? What does it hurt? Equality???


 You shoot 320 fps? I wouldn't complain if I could get 300 fps AND still shoot as well as I do with my slow poke 285 fps.

As far as equality goes ...... Where is it written that one joe has to give up something so another joe is "equal"? Don't use ObamaCare as an example!!!!!!


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Why impose a gpi rule? It caters to long draw archers. Someone posted foc being off with light arrows, and implied shaft spine will be off also. So that being said why is it so important? I know what you are saying about the golf deal also. It's a tough pill for some guys to swallow when they get out drove by a woman. Golf is a whole different world. My opinion is that the short game is where the game is won or lost. I can drive a ball 310 but if it is in the wrong fairway it's no help to me. Both sports are a thinking game for sure. The fact is that the 5gpi rule is a handicap for short draw archers.But I am short and that makes me a less of a person because I am not the same as the average American which in turn means I should have to live with bias rules. By the way my dad was not allowed to test to become a police officer because he was not tall enough. To bad he should have grown more.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> You shoot 320 fps? I wouldn't complain if I could get 300 fps AND still shoot as well as I do with my slow poke 285 fps.
> 
> As far as equality goes ...... Where is it written that one joe has to give up something so another joe is "equal"? Don't use ObamaCare as an example!!!!!!


 I never asked anyone to give up anything! I was made to shoot heaver arrows and drop my bow weight just to get my 5gpp. The equipment I shoot is all wrong anyways. But you better bet that if I win someone will complain if I shoot the same equipment as last year.


----------



## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Darwinism = Problem solved... :becky:


----------



## ohbuckhunter (Sep 18, 2008)

u could always have surgery and have them put longer arms on ya. i really feel no matter what ur drawlenth is u still have to know the yardage, AND MAKE THE SHOT.


----------



## ohbuckhunter (Sep 18, 2008)

AND btw my DL is only 27 1/2. shooting a GX xforce 62 lbs 312 grain arrow at 324


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

JawsDad said:


> Darwinism = Problem solved... :becky:


Funny, but this is what I mean when I talk about archers helping archers. Thanks for the help smart guy.


----------



## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> Funny, but this is what I mean when I talk about archers helping archers. Thanks for the help smart guy.


Geez, lighten up. You're complaining about something that CANNOT be fixed short of turning everything into an NASP event.



Check the IBO results from last year. One of the guys that placed in the 6 of this event posted on this thread and you argued with him about the need for speed...


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

JawsDad said:


> Geez, lighten up. You're complaining about something that CANNOT be fixed short of turning everything into an NASP event.
> 
> 
> 
> Check the IBO results from last year. One of the guys that placed in the 6 of this event posted on this thread and you argued with him about the need for speed...


 Because he placed 6th I should do what he said? Thanks for the results? No thanks, I'm not a follower. It can be fixed but that would involve work and heaven forbid that IBO would have to catch up with technology to do so.


----------



## SA_ArcheryGuy (Jan 22, 2009)

A good shooter is going to win no matter what. He could win with a small light shaft, he could win with a heavy fat shaft, he could win with a heavy small shaft, he could win with a light fat shaft. The fact of the matter is, no matter how large, how small, how fast, how slow. The better shooter is always going to win. Thats just the way it is and the way it always will be.


----------



## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> Because he placed 6th I should do what he said? Thanks for the results? No thanks, I'm not a follower. It can be fixed but that would involve work and heaven forbid that IBO would have to catch up with technology to do so.


The point being, that most of, if not all of those top 5 or 6 were not shooting mega speed bows. I don't know for sure but I would not be surprised if those were not shot with the same bows they use in ASA.

Technology will not change the fact that a longer draw will always shoot faster. Technology will not change the fact that if the speeds are the same, the projectiles are not. Technology will not change the fact that sometimes people must overcome limitations to achieve the results they desire even if they are put on the playing field with what they feel are unequal terms. You can argue all you want, it's not going to change that.



In all my time in in many different sports I never heard so much complaining as when I came back to archery.. Especially 3D. :chortle: 


My apologies if I offended you with the YT clip. I'll step out now and let you return to your previously scheduled agenda already in progress.


----------



## p&yslayer (Apr 9, 2010)

trapperDave said:


> run what ya brung
> 
> dont worry about the other guy/gal. Its just a ribbon
> 
> strive to shoot YOUR personal best, forget the rest. my .02


excellent post


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

p&yslayer said:


> excellent post


 That's what I should do. I will quit my whining and shoot what I shoot. I would like to be acknowledged by my peers when I do well but I guess that's life. I was wrong in thinking that others may feel that the rules leaning to long draw archers were unfair. But plenty of people are happy to be put at a disadvantage by IBO. I Will leave it at that and stop :deadhorse


----------



## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

Hey Russ,

I wish I could help you out here, but the sad reality of the IBO is that it just doesn't have the structure in place to be an equitable organization. Those that shoot blazing fast bows, or have longer draw lengths will have an advantage. You've just got to learn to be spot on with yardage, and hope the guys with the fast bows don't judge as well. Is it fair? Probably not, especially since your speed is limited by your physical build. But it is what it is. 

For a real good time, take the dude with the bow shooting 370 and see how he does on the Vegas target with its baby X at 20yds. There speed matters for nothing and its all about form.

But yeah, IBO rules are less than awesome. Still, 99% of the time, the best archers still win.

Can't be any help, but I feel ya.
CG


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

IBOHunt3D said:


> Hey Russ,
> 
> I wish I could help you out here, but the sad reality of the IBO is that it just doesn't have the structure in place to be an equitable organization. Those that shoot blazing fast bows, or have longer draw lengths will have an advantage. You've just got to learn to be spot on with yardage, and hope the guys with the fast bows don't judge as well. Is it fair? Probably not, especially since your speed is limited by your physical build. But it is what it is.
> 
> ...


 Good point. I can find a indoor bow and get back into indoor and NFAA field shooting. I just enjoy the challenge of judging yardage so much more than field targets.


----------



## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

russdiggins said:


> Like I said educated! So I assume you judge yardage perfect? I asked the question about equality. I judge just fine, not perfect like you buddy! So again why do I have to shoot 40-50 fps slower than long draw archers?


Why not shoot a bow like mine?

Most of my bows will not brake the 180 FPS speed much less the 280+ speed yet I'm having the time of my life just having fun shooting 3D & Field.

BTW I shoot a Traditional Recurve but I judge fairly well enough.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Heck no I have a hard enough time hitting the 11. You traditional shooters are something special, hats off to ya for it. But a great alternative for sure, thanks!


----------



## slowbowin12 (Apr 14, 2008)

JawsDad said:


> Darwinism = Problem solved... :becky:


Funny as Hell. man I aint heard that song in many years.


----------



## Compound Comedy (Apr 12, 2010)

lol, thats why PSE made all these 28" ata ,4 inch brace height pocket bows for you Mini Me's


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Sounds like a strong case of "The Mondays".
We'll have the IBO implement a short draw class to each class to make it fair to all.


Naw... somebody will still complain about speed, draw weight, weather....your right it fruitless.


----------



## slowbowin12 (Apr 14, 2008)

Im a short draw archer (27in) and I like my bows set up in the mid 270fps range. I have shot them faster but not any better. It doesnt matter how fast your setup is if your way off on your yardage and cant hold it on what you want to hit...12 ring 10 ring etc. I see people shooting bows way faster than mine with too much poundage or to much draw length but they love that speed and shoot like crap. If they shot a bow that they could handle that fit them they would see scores increase imo. For me speed is way overrated. but for others its not and thats cool to:wink:


----------



## ruttinbuck (Mar 4, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> You shoot 320 fps? I wouldn't complain if I could get 300 fps AND still shoot as well as I do with my slow poke 285 fps.
> 
> As far as equality goes ...... Where is it written that one joe has to give up something so another joe is "equal"? Don't use ObamaCare as an example!!!!!!


320 fps! Are you serious!


----------



## PSE Kid (Nov 22, 2008)

i know there are sooooo many that dont agree, but a 26 inch draw doesnt have that many disadvantages. i have a 26 inch draw, and there is a way to get to the higher speed. since you have a 3-5 inch less power stroke than a 27-31 inch draw archer, you can use a lighter spine and weighted arrow than recomended for your bow. it might say 5GPI, but you dont have to really believe that rule, because it is made for a 30 inch draw bow. the spine is what is important. you can build a lighter shaft and get that speed. also, you can get and arrow 3-5 inches shorter. the arrows also will have better consistencies cut short, so you can be more accurate.


----------



## PSE Kid (Nov 22, 2008)

i know that the long archers have the advantage in ibo, but look at the yardages in a round. there are a lot of >30 yard shots. a lot. if you can judge even partially good, and have a fast bow like say the PSE omen, like i have, you can still shoot very, very fast. i know that the drop from 20-30 yards was very small on my bow. i could hardly tell a difference. if you can get perfect shots on these targets, then you will probably win. that is why you see pros shooting setups that favor a closer distance. when was the last time you saw some pro shooting a 350 grain arrow at 70 lbs with a fast bow. not very much. they shoot almost identical setups that they use indoors. just change the feathers to plastic vanes, get the point weight a little lower, and add a few lbs, and you are done. it is a bout accuracy, not speed. i found that i was more accurate shooting the bow i have with fat arrows.


----------



## birddawg (Jul 23, 2009)

gjstudt said:


> Why only cry about IBO rules? Your at a disadvantage from you train of thought either ASA or IBO.
> 
> So what your 26". If you only going 280 in the IBO that is your own fault. Many bows will do close to 300 or more at that draw.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify there are not that many bows that will shoot 300 fps at 26 inch draw FYI


----------



## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

I have a friend that's so short and small framed that we call him the "pigmy"! He has to struggle to get 285 fps. out of his IBO set up due to his short draw length. You may have heard of him. His name is Elwin Dillon. He has the same 40-50 fps. disadvantage that you guys are crying about. However, he also has 2 IBO World Champion belt buckles and a large number of wins at National Events! A fast miss is still a miss!


----------



## DocMort (Sep 24, 2009)

Blame your mom and dad for having a short baby, don't blame the IBO or ASA, majority of either ones shooters shoot a 28-29 inch draw.


----------



## Rnfrazier (Sep 7, 2008)

I think that you should just shoot what you can shoot. I am a 27" draw and I am shooting about 70fps faster than the guys I shoot with because they are using their hunting arrows. They aren't complaining, but then again we are all just out there to have a good time and enjoy shooting


----------



## Compound Comedy (Apr 12, 2010)

I think Known 3D has really made some knuckleheads think range estimation isnt important and the point of 3D shooting in the 1st place.


----------



## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Compound Comedy said:


> I think Known 3D has really made some knuckleheads think range estimation isnt important and the point of 3D shooting in the 1st place.


What is "the Point"
Isn't it subjective?:noidea:


----------



## whitetail101 (Aug 10, 2007)

I find it interesting the people who complain about how they can't win because they can't shoot super fast.

Well speed is not what wins a tournament! How you win a tournament is being the best at putting your arrows consistantly into the 11-ring(12 for ASA) and judging yardage accurately.

Speed has nothing to do with whether you win or lose. I have witnessed a guys at the IBO shooting 245 fps outshoot guys shooting 300+. They were able to do that because they knew how to shoot their bow and could judge yardage accurately.

For those who boohoo that they are not shooting 300+ fps so therefore they can't win, please stick to hunting and stay off the 3D course.


----------



## ruttinbuck (Mar 4, 2004)

birddawg said:


> Just to clarify there are not that many bows that will shoot 300 fps at 26 inch draw FYI


This I totally understand....but russdiggins is ripping on the IBO and he is shooting 320 fps! He isn't slow by any means! Are you shooting in MBO? Just wondering.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

whitetail101 said:


> I find it interesting the people who complain about how they can't win because they can't shoot super fast.
> 
> Well speed is not what wins a tournament! How you win a tournament is being the best at putting your arrows consistantly into the 11-ring(12 for ASA) and judging yardage accurately.
> 
> ...


 Well if speed is not a factor then why all of the rules to slow people down? Maybe in pa the shots are all 30 yards and you judge distance perfect. What I am saying is that when IBO imposes a 5gpp rule they put short draw archers at a disadvantage, it's physics.Just because you are fine with hitting the animal when you misjudge a shot by 5 yards doesn't mean I am. It's funny how if someone here brings up a valid point all of a sudden they cant shoot, judge yardage, and should just quit the sport all together. I had one guy tell me I should quit shooting because of my size. I'm not boohooing about 300fps I'm boohooing about 40-50 fps. It makes a difference. But most of the short draw archers here are such great shots that they welcome the disadvantage because it makes them more competitive??? Great job for the 245fps winner I once heard a guy won a race in a toyota also!


----------



## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

I do not know what people want. Why does everything have to be equal? In bow hunting everyone is not going to be equal. Everyone has a differnt draw. You have a million choices for bows, sites, arrows, rests, magnification and all the other crap. You might shoot on one day while it is windy and crappy and others moght shoot another day when it is calm and sunny. How boring would it be if everyone were equal. Sounds like our current government system, " everyone should be equal! If you have more than someone else we are going to punish you and give it to someone else who is not as equal. Why can't we all just take IBO for what it is? I agree with others that say, if you do not like it do not do it. The same can be said about Pope and Young. SOme people love it and some hate it. It is not equal! Rambling on here but really you should just take it for what it is and enjoy the fact that you can get out and shoot your bow when you want and compete against others who have the same passion and interests.


----------



## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

kighty7 said:


> i do not know what people want. Why does everything have to be equal? In bow hunting everyone is not going to be equal. Everyone has a differnt draw. You have a million choices for bows, sites, arrows, rests, magnification and all the other crap. You might shoot on one day while it is windy and crappy and others moght shoot another day when it is calm and sunny. How boring would it be if everyone were equal. Sounds like our current government system, " everyone should be equal! If you have more than someone else we are going to punish you and give it to someone else who is not as equal. Why can't we all just take ibo for what it is? I agree with others that say, if you do not like it do not do it. The same can be said about pope and young. Some people love it and some hate it. It is not equal! Rambling on here but really you should just take it for what it is and enjoy the fact that you can get out and shoot your bow when you want and compete against others who have the same passion and interests.


+1 :d


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

I shoot MBR; and once again I agree. We should be able to be different in what we shoot. IBO's rules are to keep everyone the same. However they didn't take into account that a IBO 26" archer is different than a IBO 30" archer. So like I said, why? It's funny how someone can argue againts what they think I am complaining about but in the end they agree with what I have been saying all allong.


----------



## bowtechExVFT17 (Mar 5, 2005)

Why don't you just go shoot the IBO shoots with under 5 GPP and when you win, you let them go through the fiasco of disqualifying you. If shooting under 5 GPP is the secret to winning the IBO go out there, make your point and prove it.


----------



## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

Just to add more: 
If i shoot less than someone else who has a longer draw and he scores better than me I should not be upset. Preparation is the key. Judging distances and confidence with your equipment levels the playing field. I do not get to shoot as much as I would like or practice as much so should I ask the others who I am shooting against to give me an advantage? Absolutely not! Did Muggsie Boggs ask the judges at the Slam dunk contest to lower the hoop since he is only 5'7". No he went out and dunked the ball on the 10' hoop like everyone else. I am tired of people wanting equal. Manybe I am old fashined for my 35 year age. But hard work and practice will get you closer to your goal than complaining and having the goal lowered to your expectations! :darkbeer:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Last year we (AZ) didn't shoot IBO rules. I could place top 5 in MBO fairly easy when I had the time off to make both days of the shoot. I'm not the greatest shot ever but I could hold my own. This year under IBO I have had to change a lot of my equipment and my scores have dropped. That is on my own account I havent spent enough time learning my bow with the loss of 50fps. But with IBO rules I have had to drop my arrow speed to 320. I was shooting 370 at 65lbs. However the long draw guys are still shooting in the 350-370 range. I don't want to be labeled the CHEATER in Arizona 3D.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Another basketball analogy? At least try to get creative like the guy that sent the short people song link. The rules IBO made up with their infinite wisdom in 1984 is old, out dated, and bias. Mugsey Boes relay! It's funny when short guys bench more than tall guys or if we do more push ups it not fair because we have shorter arms. Come on guys!


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

Are you sure they are legal under IBO rules? I find it very hard to believe 370 and still make IBO.


----------



## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

Just so you know the difference for an arrow shot for 40 yards at a 45 yard target at 320 fps or 370 fps is less than one inch difference. Not a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Not many guys out there good enough to shoot 1 inch at 45 yards. I'm jsut sayin':darkbeer:


----------



## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

Coming soon to a 3D organization near you...


The S28D (sub 28" draw) class/stake


These are shooting competitions... key word being "shooter".

If it was a bow competition, then we should just strap all our bows to Hooter Shooters and get it on.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes 30.5" IBO omen 370 all day. I know the guy, in fact he is probably the reason the AZ bow hunters assoc. went to IBO. Guys prob. started to complain because he was shooting 400+ not IBO though. The shooting out west is prob. a bit different than back east. I know it's all relative but with terrain, topography, trees or lack there of does affect the shooters ability to judge yardage. That being said we all have to shoot the same conditions here. It may be why people back east don't understand my gripe. I'm not the tool most of you are trying to make me out to be. I'm just stating facts. IBO is bias.


----------



## buckyforever (Dec 18, 2007)

russdiggins said:


> Yes 30.5" IBO omen 370 all day. I know the guy, in fact he is probably the reason the AZ bow hunters assoc. went to IBO. Guys prob. started to complain because he was shooting 400+ not IBO though. The shooting out west is prob. a bit different than back east. I know it's all relative but with terrain, topography, trees or lack there of does affect the shooters ability to judge yardage. That being said we all have to shoot the same conditions here. It may be why people back east don't understand my gripe. I'm not the tool most of you are trying to make me out to be. I'm just stating facts. IBO is bias.


So were you shooting arrows at 3 gpp??? Have you thought about the fact that IBO makes that rule because it falls in line with what the bow manufacturers recommend as a minimum "SAFE" arrow weight?


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

FitaX10 said:


> Just so you know the difference for an arrow shot for 40 yards at a 45 yard target at 320 fps or 370 fps is less than one inch difference. Not a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Not many guys out there good enough to shoot 1 inch at 45 yards. I'm jsut sayin':darkbeer:


Exactly.:darkbeer:

Also, there are maybe 4 bows made today that will achieve 370fps and be IBO legal.....and those 4 would require a full 32" draw length to get there.

This entire thread is much ado about nothing.:mg:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been waiting for someone to say that. The FACT is a big word mister safety. I bet everyone of you 5gpp safety police speed to and from the archery range. I have never heard of anyone dieing from 3gpp. How ever thousands of people die every year speeding on the streets. But when someone questions the IBO rules they must be idiots. And the part about not conforming to the 5gpp rule for IBO it is all ready there. The problem with it is that my sons bow will just about shoot 288 IBO. It is just so outdated that it sounds something like . If you cant shoot 288fps then you can shoot what ever arrow weight you want as long as it doesn't go??? fps faster. So yes it is already there. Thanks!


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

So basically you want the IBO to change their rules to cater to you?

Do you realize that the vast majority of top pro shooters in the IBO shoot less than 300fps?

I am sure you realize that several bows will give a 26" draw length shooter 300fps while still honoring the IBO and bow manufacturers 5gpp rules?

Also, do you realize that even with a 350fps arrow, you STILL need to accurately judge yardage at longer ranges to stay in the 10 ring?

You are barking for the sake of making noise.


----------



## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

russdiggins said:


> Guys I'm not the tool most of you are trying to make me out to be.


yea,...i'm thinkin so..
why argue with everyone about something they cannot change? you would be better off waisting your time calling mr. watkins from the ibo and plead your case to him, at least he could change something. maybe spending a little more of this time judging to help your score instead of making sob stories cause your the only one with a short draw would help you out more cause i can just about bet THE RULES AINT A CHAINGIN!!


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

The rules were wrote in 1984. What were the bows shooting in 84? most of you weren't shooting then so I'll tell ya. 220 was a fast bow, cables were really cables, limbs were wood and some still had brackets, risers were pored magnesium, strings were probably still dacron. Jump ahead 26 years to 2010 what does the average bow shoot? materials are ??? The rules will change, and yes I do expect the IBO to change their archaic and bias 5gpp rule or at least modify it so that when I shoot against you taller and superior athletes. I can shoot the same speed arrow you do if I chose to.


----------



## nucker04 (Mar 19, 2005)

I would personally be Pissed if i found out someone was shooting 3gpi just because he didnt think the rules were fair.Even if you think it is fine doesnt mean other people do. There is a reason that rule is in place.

Just my 2 cents:darkbeer:


----------



## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

Sooo why don't you tell us what you need and want to make things equal.up to and including SLOWING your bow down to match mine. What is your idea of the perfect rules ?



russdiggins said:


> I can shoot the same speed all day long last year when AZ didn't have IBO rules, by shooting a lighter arrow. I know what you are going to say less than 5gpi? Yes and I didn't hurt myself or anyone else for that matter. What I propose is allow the short draw archer to match the speed of a long draw archer by shooting 3.5 to 4gpi arrows. With the technology of today's arrows, strings, risers, cams, limb materials 1.5gpi isn't causing any more problems with safety than 5gpi. Not to exceed the manufactures IBO speed of a 30" or 31" archers bow. Now we are all equal.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

harleyryder said:


> Sooo why don't you tell us what you need and want to make things equal.up to and including SLOWING your bow down to match mine. What is your idea of the perfect rules ?


If you would read you would have known what I am speaking about.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

nucker04 said:


> I would personally be Pissed if i found out someone was shooting 3gpi just because he didnt think the rules were fair.Even if you think it is fine doesnt mean other people do. There is a reason that rule is in place.
> 
> Just my 2 cents:darkbeer:


 It's to put 30" draw archers at an advantage over anyone that shoots 29" or less. Who do you think you are to tell others what weight arrow to shoot? Why does it piss you off?


----------



## buckyforever (Dec 18, 2007)

russdiggins said:


> It's to put 30" draw archers at an advantage over anyone that shoots 29" or less. Who do you think you are to tell others what weight arrow to shoot? Why does it piss you off?


So then what would stop myself (a 31" draw) from shooting below 5 gpp? then what are you going to do? You're going to be in the same predicament, whining about how they are still shooting faster than you. That rule is not biased, it is the same as major league baseball allowing only wood bats, do you hear the little guys whining about not being able to hit home runs?


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*speed kills*

I am 6'3" with a 30" draw shooting a 2010 Hoyt Maxxis 35 (60lbs). My arrows weigh out at 372 grains.. 72 grains over IBO minimum... Chrono at 287 FPS.. that doesn't look like an "advantage" to me!!!. My arrows are cut at 28 and weigh 8.5 gpi...
I shoot for megathrust arrows. and cant get my arrows to min weight even If I tried. It is almost impossible to get anthing around 300 at my draw. even a lightest arrow with a 90 grain nib is over 300 at my draw. I have some gold tip ultralight pro's that weigh 314.... they fly horrible...I found that the heavier arrow groups the best, but you have to be right on with yardage.. you dont' get that flat trajectory like the guys shooting super light arrows on speed bows like the destroyer.
your bow is probably shooting faster than mine.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

buckyforever said:


> So then what would stop myself (a 31" draw) from shooting below 5 gpp? then what are you going to do? You're going to be in the same predicament, whining about how they are still shooting faster than you. That rule is not biased, it is the same as major league baseball allowing only wood bats, do you hear the little guys whining about not being able to hit home runs?


 I think that would be great you go on and shoot a 3gpp arrow at 31". I wouldn't have anything to whine about. I would love to see what kind of groups you would shoot with that arrow. Now Baseball??? Everyone is able to choose what weight, length, and type of wood the bat is made of equally. Buy the way, base ball isn't about hitting home runs. big guys make the game more entertaining being able to get it out of the park though.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Bird Dogg said:


> I am 6'3" with a 30" draw shooting a 2010 Hoyt Maxxis 35 (60lbs). My arrows weigh out at 372 grains.. 72 grains over IBO minimum... Chrono at 287 FPS.. that doesn't look like an "advantage" to me!!!. My arrows are cut at 28 and weigh 8.5 gpi...
> I shoot for megathrust arrows. and cant get my arrows to min weight even If I tried. It is almost impossible to get anthing around 300 at my draw. even a lightest arrow with a 90 grain nib is over 300 at my draw. I have some gold tip ultralight pro's that weigh 314.... they fly horrible...I found that the heavier arrow groups the best, but you have to be right on with yardage.. you dont' get that flat trajectory like the guys shooting super light arrows on speed bows like the destroyer.
> your bow is probably shooting faster than mine.


 True every bit of what you wrote. But my argument is that if you wanted to you could shoot a bow with a much faster IBO rating. We can use the omen for this, 366 IBO. If you got a dozen x-ringer or gold tip fat shafts, the name eludes me right now, some 1.75 inch vanes, and 100gr nibs I bet you may be pleasantly surprised. With tweaking of tip weights and different knocks and bushings you would be able to get a good grouping 350gr arrow. Shooting 366fps give or take a couple.


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*3gpi*

In a fairytale world you can get a arrow that weighs 3gpi at 31 . total weight at 91 grains, that would not be like dry firing your bow everytime, and not void your bow warrantee.

some of the lightest arrows are around 7 gpi, so at 31 it would be 217 without fletchings, nocs, or field point. add 65 grain point. your at 282, noc and fletchings your barely under 300.. and chances are your going to be severely underspined, and horrible foc as well.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

6.2gpi 350 spine arrows are available, so are 50 grain nibs for this arrow. FOC is way over rated. But what do I know I'm short. BTW it's 3gpp


----------



## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*No One*

Isn't anyone going to own up to buying the fastest bow available with the lightest arrows so they can shoot flatter, not be as critical on yardage and have an advantage over someone with a slower rig. Surely there is at least one out there.

If speed doesn't matter why is there so much fussing about ASAs 280 fps rule. IBO is an equipment race, always has been. Recognize it for what it is and get on with things.

Good luck

sawdust2


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*also*

True I could probably shoot an omen at my draw with my ultralights at 350 ish fps, .. but I prefer a longer ata bow, and sacrafice some of that speed, for what I feel is a smoother drawing bow. I personally have no problem with guys that want to shoot whatever bow they want...and I shoot a slower arrow pretty well most of the time. Finished 2nd in pro in my indoor league shooting with guys shooting destroyers and monsters. out of 43 people, my friend John shoots a long ata target mathews and finished first in pro. I dont' remember what model. (around 280fps also)
I spend alot of time practicing yardage, and I have to not shooting a "speed" bow. A friend of mine shoots a destroyer 350 with minimum weight arrows. he claims one pin for everything in hunter class... Do I wish I had a little more speed? My friend Tim has a destroyer 340 with a 28 inch draw, his arrows are 320 something about 40 fps faster than mine, and I am the one with the long draw.


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*speed*

heres the million dollar question:

Do you want the speed to hit the ten, or the skill to hit the x?


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Bird Dogg said:


> heres the million dollar question:
> 
> Do you want the speed to hit the ten, or the skill to hit the x?


How about both!


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*pro's*

If you look at what most of the pro's use, you will see alot of slow bows. Like mathews C4's, Hoyt Vantage, PSE Moneymaker, etc... check out what Levi, samantha, Nathan, and Reo are using... mostly long ata bows. I guess they would be even better with alphaburners, destroyers, and omens? or do you think there might be more to it than just speed?


----------



## dts (May 23, 2006)

Equalizing the speed limit would make IBO more competitive. Long draw archers have an advantage simply by virtue of the way the rules are written.

Why wouldn't it be advantageous to set maximum speeds with different classes based on the speed limit? 

Instead of race cars competing with horse and buggy, they should compete with other race cars. The IBO method pits race cars vs. buggies.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Bird Dogg said:


> If you look at what most of the pro's use, you will see alot of slow bows. Like mathews C4's, Hoyt Vantage, PSE Moneymaker, etc... check out what Levi, samantha, Nathan, and Reo are using... mostly long ata bows. I guess they would be even better with alphaburners, destroyers, and omens? or do you think there might be more to it than just speed?


 Sure there is more to it than speed. A bad shot is still a bad shot no matter how fast your arrow is going. But if I want to be able to shoot the same speed as a long draw guy I should have that option. I bet they don't shoot their indoor target bow for 3D either. That being said, speed does make a difference. Is it the fix all?l No, but it helps when yardage is misjudged. That is why they have indoor bows, field bows, and 3d bows. Every one of the above are very good shots. I don't compare myself to them; Do you?


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*yes*

Absolutely! they shoot great, what is the difference between any of us and the pro's> the desire, practice, and sacrafice. Many archers arent' willing to do what they do to be where they are.. most people want to shoot on a practice butt right before a tournament and take home the first place spot. and get mad when they get beat by a guy who shoots 30-40 arrows every day 7 days a week, working on form, shot , and execution.
Yes there are guys who are just machines, and seem unbeatable, but nobody stays on top for ever. 

I shoot MBO in IBo, I have the farthest distance to shoot at 50 yards. there are guys in my class who shoot speed bows, absolutely. I finished well in the last two big shoots I went to... 18th at Harrisburg indoor nationals, with a zero> (totally messed up...forgot to move my sight)., and 10th in springfield.. Not stellar finishes, by any means, but I qualified, and can focus on my weakness's for Worlds.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

"the desire, practice, and sacrifice" you forgot god given talent! Good shooting and I hope you don't make the sight mistake at worlds.


----------



## sarje (Mar 31, 2009)

I'll admit to benefitting from my speed bow shooting flatter. It makes a slight mis-judgement in yardage not so critical. Also for 3D, a flatter shooting bow will be more likely to avoid horizontal obastacles that are likely to be hit due to trajectory.
In defence of us long draw archers, a short draw bow is far more forgiving than a long draw. Think of it like brace height. The further the distance between string and brace, the less forgiving the bow.


----------



## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

Well Our group shot this weekend and it was IBO rules, the speed bows in our group did not do to well...

I shoot 280fps and my buddy who is a equal shot had his rig shooting 318, well I'm not a bragger but I beat him without a problem. He said he missed judged yardage pretty bad on the course and that was the reason...

I shoot mostly IBO and my target rig is shooting 280, I shoot what is comfortable to me.. Speed is a great thing if you can control it, but there is more to it then more forgiveness on missed yardage estimations...
With a speed bow you usally have a shorter brace height which is less forgiving, supper fast arrows are usally lighter and are affected by wind more...

The truth is that there is no foolproof way to get better scores on a course other then practice, practice, practice.. I work real hard on my 3D, shooting forum, judging yardage and course management.


----------



## CRAZYRICK1 (Dec 26, 2009)

russdiggins said:


> Am I the only one that sees that short draw archers are discriminated against using IBO rules? Why do I have to shoot 40-50fps slower than someone shooting 31-30" draw? Can anyone give me a reason?I don't want to hear it's the archer that makes the difference. miss judge a shot by five yards on a 50 yard target. 40-50 fps makes quite a bit of difference.:fuming:


WOW!!!:mg:I've never heard such whining out of a grown man. I was gonna go to my first 3-D shoot tomorrow, but after reading this crap, I don't think I want to hang out with people like you. If this is a good example of a typical 3-D shooter, then I don't want to be involved!!!:mg::mg::mg::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2:
I hope this isn't typical behavior, because I really want to give it a go


----------



## CRAZYRICK1 (Dec 26, 2009)

BTW, I use the same bow for spots, field, and hunting, and have a 28" draw with a 7 year old sq2, at 270FPS and I am very good. 
Its about skill, not whining about bad genetics and short arms. 
Get out and practice and your scores will get better.
JMHO:darkbeer::darkbeer:


----------



## McGinnis7 (Feb 12, 2010)

treeman65 said:


> this is my last post of this sensless post.
> 
> BY the way I tried out for the NBA but at 5'9'' I got crushed by someone that was 6'7'' in tryouts.I am now sueing NBA cause they will not put a hieght limit on the players.:wink:


Thats what I have been thinking the hole time. I really like shooting 300 fps. Last year I shot and took 4 in 3-d state and won over 2 guys who were shooting 340+ and I was only shooting 270 fps. it's all about becoming the best and using what God gives you. :wink:


----------



## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

CRAZYRICK1 said:


> WOW!!!:mg:I've never heard such whining out of a grown man. I was gonna go to my first 3-D shoot tomorrow, but after reading this crap, I don't think I want to hang out with people like you. If this is a good example of a typical 3-D shooter, then I don't want to be involved!!!:mg::mg::mg::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2:
> I hope this isn't typical behavior, because I really want to give it a go



usually not too many out there but they are there....go have fun and ignore the whiners...:darkbeer:


----------



## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

CRAZYRICK1 said:


> Its about skill, not whining about bad genetics and short arms.
> Get out and practice and your scores will get better.
> JMHO:darkbeer::darkbeer:



thats how most people look at it, the rest look for blazing speed as a band-aid to compensate..


----------



## tedlebo (Jul 5, 2005)

CRAZYRICK1 said:


> WOW!!!:mg:I've never heard such whining out of a grown man. I was gonna go to my first 3-D shoot tomorrow, but after reading this crap, I don't think I want to hang out with people like you. If this is a good example of a typical 3-D shooter, then I don't want to be involved!!!:mg::mg::mg::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2:
> I hope this isn't typical behavior, because I really want to give it a go



You're going to run into the "cry me a river" types pretty much everywhere.
For the most part, however, the majority of the guys and gals you meet will be pretty good folks, all in all.


----------



## Leopard1 (Mar 2, 2010)

in my experience the short draw crowd(i have a 23) are a bit stockeir than lanky people and more weight = more speed


----------



## goofyswife2788 (Jun 5, 2008)

tedlebo said:


> You're going to run into the "cry me a river" types pretty much everywhere.
> For the most part, however, the majority of the guys and gals you meet will be pretty good folks, all in all.




Don't let the bull crap being spilled in this thread keep you from trying out 3D. And please don't let it make you think everyone in 3D are whinny little children cause were not. One thing I've learned about AT is that a lot of people hide behind their AT names and cry about everything. But you won't find those same people saying this crap in person. Its always the IBO or ASA at fault. Never the fault of the archer themselves. 


Most of us are good straight forward folks!


----------



## Bowtech_Fan (Apr 30, 2009)

sounds to me that you need to quit worrying about everyone else and just shoot. if they make a set speed limit and you still get beat what will your excuse be then? brace height? axle to axle? just face the fact that there is always going to be someone better than you. why should the rules be changed just because you make errors in yardage?


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

First: If you are going to comment on something such as a rule that's is imposed by the IBO you should actually know something about the subject. Second: IBO means you can shoot up to 80lbs which is fine but your arrow weight is still held to 5GPP 400 grains at 80. So no you won't shoot any faster. Third: What makes you think that I am a bad shot, I don't practice, or don't know how to judge yardage? Because I have stated a FACT that a long draw archer is given a 40-50fps advantage over a short draw archer. What I am talking about, for all of you super great shots, is a couple of inches of drop on a arrow at 45-50 yards. If I am such a bad shot then why would 1 to 2 inches mater to me. Like I have stated before educated opinions.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

goofyswife2788 said:


> Don't let the bull crap being spilled in this thread keep you from trying out 3D. And please don't let it make you think everyone in 3D are whinny little children cause were not. One thing I've learned about AT is that a lot of people hide behind their AT names and cry about everything. But you won't find those same people saying this crap in person. Its always the IBO or ASA at fault. Never the fault of the archer themselves.
> 
> 
> Most of us are good straight forward folks!


 Now I'm not a good straight forward folk, and hiding behind a user name. My name is my user name, Goofyswife! Yes I did say this crap in person. Funny how people make assumptions about others on a whim with out any real knowledge about the person. I also would love to have the option to shoot ASA. There rules have been applied to everyone equally. I'm sure everyone that has posted on this subject has read every post here! You haven't seen whining until you win a few shoots. People start paying attention to your equipment, hat, binoculars, release, fetching, you name it. Shoot a good score and forget to sign one of your score cards. Just wait for the fun to begin, Yes there's whiners.


----------



## goofyswife2788 (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm not hiding behind my AT name. My real name is Ammie and yes sir I have won a few shoots. The fact of my post was not to assume all archers are whiners. Because were not. But then again I shoot in womens class. We don't whine. We just get the job done.


----------



## nucker04 (Mar 19, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> It's to put 30" draw archers at an advantage over anyone that shoots 29" or less. Who do you think you are to tell others what weight arrow to shoot? Why does it piss you off?


If i were shooting in a group with a fella that was shooting a undergrained arrow that wasnt recommended by the manufacturer due to safety concerns, than you're damn right iam going to be pissed off. Its one thing to do it at home but if you bring that onto the range and that bow blows up and possibly sends a cam or piece of limb into my forehead than there would be problems.

I could care less if the guy beside me is shooting 50fps faster than me, but as long as he does it safely and by the set rules.:darkbeer:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't doubt you one bit. You can probably teach me and others plenty. I never once said you were hiding behind your user name. You my lady, said that about me. I just don't appreciate you implying that I'm a liar buy saying I am not straight forward.


----------



## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

russdiggins said:


> First: If you are going to comment on something such as a rule that's is imposed by the IBO you should actually know something about the subject. Second: IBO means you can shoot up to 80lbs which is fine but your arrow weight is still held to 5GPP 400 grains at 80. So no you won't shoot any faster. Third: What makes you think that I am a bad shot, I don't practice, or don't know how to judge yardage? Because I have stated a FACT that a long draw archer is given a 40-50fps advantage over a short draw archer. What I am talking about, for all of you super great shots, is a couple of inches of drop on a arrow at 45-50 yards. If I am such a bad shot then why would 1 to 2 inches mater to me. Like I have stated before educated opinions.


A 40-50 fps difference in speed does not make as much difference as you think. I have an Archery software program(TAP) that you can try out different speed bows shooting at virtual targets and can vary the difference in what the actual target distance is and what you set your sight for and it will show you where your arrows hit. In the picture below the top dot is with a 350 fps bow shooting a 45 yard target and underjudging 3 yards. The lower dot is out of a 300 fps bow with the same target distance and misjudge. Both 8's.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

nucker04 said:


> If i were shooting in a group with a fella that was shooting a undergrained arrow that wasnt recommended by the manufacturer due to safety concerns, than you're damn right iam going to be pissed off. Its one thing to do it at home but if you bring that onto the range and that bow blows up and possibly sends a cam or piece of limb into my forehead than there would be problems.
> 
> I could care less if the guy beside me is shooting 50fps faster than me, but as long as he does it safely and by the set rules.:darkbeer:


 How many times have you seen a bow blow up? Most of the time it is because of a burr on the cam, old string or cable, or a flaw in the riser. Does anyone know what 2gpp ends up to be on a 24" arrow???? about 120 grains. which is 0.017143lbs. I have never seen a bow blow up because of 120 grains. Do you know how they test a bow? Limbs, cams, strings? The last bow I saw blow up was due to torquing the riser while letting down. It wasn't mine, it belonged to a tall guy that was shooting to much weight. Buy the way he was shooting way over the IBO 5gpp. You probably speed when you are late. Lots of people die in car crashes every year. NO one, I mean NO ONE has died from 3gpp. I get pissed every time I go to a accident and find people laying in the street because they didn't wear their seat belts. But what does that have to do with anything?? Just like the post you wrote.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Bowtechie said:


> A 40-50 fps difference in speed does not make as much difference as you think. I have an Archery software program(TAP) that you can try out different speed bows shooting at virtual targets and can vary the difference in what the actual target distance is and what you set your sight for and it will show you where your arrows hit. In the picture below the top dot is with a 350 fps bow shooting a 45 yard target and underjudging 3 yards. The lower dot is out of a 300 fps bow with the same target distance and misjudge. Both 8's.


Great post, that's the information I was looking for. I was wondering how much difference it would be at 50 yards with a 370fps, 220grain arrow and a 320fps, 300gr arrow. Both being misjudged at 45 yards? Thanks!


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> Great post, that's the information I was looking for. I was wondering how much difference it would be at 50 yards with a 370fps, 220grain arrow and a 320fps, 300gr arrow. Both being misjudged at 45 yards? Thanks!


see you just dont get it.Bowtechie just showed you documented proof that speed does not make that much difference.so you need to learn to judge


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

That much is the key word! ? You are a better shot/judge than I am so it doesn't mean much to you. But when you have the depth perception that I do it makes a big difference to me. I'll go work on my depth perception now, thanks.


----------



## CRAZYRICK1 (Dec 26, 2009)

russdiggins said:


> How many times have you seen a bow blow up? Most of the time it is because of a burr on the cam, old string or cable, or a flaw in the riser. Does anyone know what 2gpp ends up to be on a 24" arrow???? about 120 grains. which is 0.017143lbs. I have never seen a bow blow up because of 120 grains. Do you know how they test a bow? Limbs, cams, strings? The last bow I saw blow up was due to torquing the riser while letting down. It wasn't mine, it belonged to a tall guy that was shooting to much weight. Buy the way he was shooting way over the IBO 5gpp. You probably speed when you are late. Lots of people die in car crashes every year. NO one, I mean NO ONE has died from 3gpp. I get pissed every time I go to a accident and find people laying in the street because they didn't wear their seat belts. But what does that have to do with anything?? Just like the post you wrote.


Just keep shooting that way at home in AZ. Let us know how it works out for you:hurt::hurt::frusty::frusty::frusty::doh::nono::nono::nono:


----------



## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

russdiggins said:


> Great post, that's the information I was looking for. I was wondering how much difference it would be at 50 yards with a 370fps, 220grain arrow and a 320fps, 300gr arrow. Both being misjudged at 45 yards? Thanks!


Here you go. If you under judge that much you need to practice judging more or shoot a different class.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks, that's why everyone always shoots a perfect round. All great shooters never misjudge by less than 4 yards. I should just shoot a different class. Then the 40-50fps advantage will go away, great idea. 2 to 3 inches is a big difference.


----------



## Chad T. (Jan 3, 2006)

why not instead of trying to change IBO rules, join a local club and look into getting ASA shoots on the schudule also


----------



## blazenarrow (Feb 6, 2009)

If the targets 50 yards its 50 yards. Whats the diff If you shoot a 250 fps of 400 fps.. If you can judge and shoot then I guess you might have a chance.. I know a guy whos 5'3 and he shoots lights out on 3-D courses.. It is what it is.. (THE YARDAGE).. You talk about dropping 3 or 4 inches on 50YD targets..(because your speed) Well heres a solution put down the bow and grab the rangefinders.. Work on that.. And you will become a better 3-D guy.. Judge it right.. 12 ring everytime. Well at least 8/10 times..


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:
Next you will say that your finger is too short to use a rangefinder to practice yardage.:hurt::hurt::hurt:


----------



## SteveID (May 6, 2008)

russdiggins said:


> I'm done with this one.


Post #58. We were all hoping you would be, but you lied to us.:zip:


----------



## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

russdiggins, if I were to use your argument for equality for short-draw archers, then you would need to give up your speed bow and drop down to my 260fps. There is no way for me to get above 300fps with my 60# bow. 

My question to you is: would you be happy if IBO set a speed limit like ASA? That would make the playing field more level, but most speed bow shooters wouldn't want to give up their bow to shoot that slow. I guess along with all the other classes available IBO will need to come up with a "short-draw" class.

Why is it that some archers that have problems on the archery course want the rules changed to suit them? The rules are posted so shoot within them and enjoy the day. If you want the rules changed, strive to achieve a position on the governing board and try to implement the rules you think are fair to everyone.


----------



## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

Russ I am also a 26" draw shooting IBO's. What would you propose because shooting below the standard of 5gr/ 1lb of pull weight is dangerous. I do feel your pain however my first year shooting 3d I was finishing in the top 3 fairly consitantly at our local shoots. I personally wouldnt want a speed cap like ASA however I personally dont think IBO should have any restriction on arrow weight or speed but for now they do. To be honest I dont think I would shoot below that standard anyway.

Take care and good luck shooting this year!!!


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

RNT said:


> Russ I am also a 26" draw shooting IBO's. What would you propose because shooting below the standard of 5gr/ 1lb of pull weight is dangerous. I do feel your pain however my first year shooting 3d I was finishing in the top 3 fairly consitantly at our local shoots. I personally wouldnt want a speed cap like ASA however I personally dont think IBO should have any restriction on arrow weight or speed but for now they do. To be honest I dont think I would shoot below that standard anyway.
> 
> Take care and good luck shooting this year!!!


IF you know its dangerous to shoot an arrow under 5 gpi why in the world would you not want a restriction on arrow weight?


----------



## swinestalker (Oct 28, 2009)

I don't like "speed limits". I just shoot 3d for fun, and got a group of friends together last year to attend one. Long story short, we found out they had a speed limit and none of our group would qualify, so we didn't attend. Luckily, we found most events in our area do not have "speed limits". I'm no expert, however, I would think short draw archers have an inherant accuracy advantage due to the shorter powerstroke with less time on string. How would you make that "fair".


----------



## opivy (Aug 10, 2009)

I played baseball all through my life, I am 6'0 and right handed.

I played in Peoria, Az for the mariners for a summer - all the guys I competed against that where right handed were 6'3" and above - they could throw 90 MPH without even trying.

Why isn't there a major league for guys 6'0 and under? 

/end sarcasm

Lifes a ***** - there's always someone taller, stronger, faster. The only guy who is out there thinking everything is fair is the guy on top - oh well.


----------



## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

The fact of the matter is simple.. In any 3D shoot you go to, there has to be winners and losers, plain and simple... If you are one of the losers, work harder and become a winner. No matter what the rules are, everyone is playing by the same ones. I'm not buying that the IBO caters to long draw archers and the ASA doesn't.. I got a friend who has turtle arms and is shooting 320 fps, so the equipment is there.. If you feel speed will give you a leg up, go get you a speed bow. But i guarantee you that it will not be the cure, sounds more like a shooting problem...

Answer me this, your last shoot where all this steam at the IBO came from, how did you shoot? Were all your shots right on the money east and west and it was just a height issue? What kind of scores do you shoot on a 300 round, where yardage isn't a issue?


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*speed*

the next problem with slowing down bows, is that someone will make a bow that shoots 400 fps, then youll have to have 500 grain arrow to slow it down. 
IMHO I think as bows get faster, they should move the stake back farther instead of slowing the bow down, they moved hunter from 35 to 40. or if you shoot under 300fps, you can shoot in a different class like mbr....then you can have guys shooting speed bows with pins and stabs, with guys shooting lenses, clarifiers, and a slower bow? I dont' know what you guys think about that.. Me personally I think if your having trouble shooting practice your yardage.


----------



## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

treeman65 said:


> IF you know its dangerous to shoot an arrow under 5 gpi why in the world would you not want a restriction on arrow weight?


I dont believe in restricting others from shooting differently. It should be their choice. However for now it is the rules.


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

I shoot a 26.5" draw Hoyt Maxxis 31 and I get 299 fps at 5 gr/lbs. Before this bow I had a Bowtech 82nd airborne that got 307 fps. I see very little difference in 300 fps and someone who is shooting 320 fps or 330 fps. More often than not all that "speed" results in is the world's fastest miss. I've seen very few arrows that fly as good in the middle 300s than they do in the 290s. If you think pure speed is gonna get you a IBO belt buckle you'd be wrong. Most top IBO shooters that win consistantly don't shoot much past 300 fps.


----------



## Turkeyflacx2 (Mar 21, 2009)

trapperDave said:


> run what ya brung
> 
> dont worry about the other guy/gal. Its just a ribbon
> 
> strive to shoot YOUR personal best, forget the rest. my .02


X2....Im a 27" and go just to have fun and make myself a better shot. I wish there were no money payouts or trophys or any kind of reward other than a good time was had by everyone. Back to the basics of what 3-ds were first intended for.


----------



## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*Rules*

How come it's always the LOSERS who complain about the rules being unfair???
You never hear the winners saying such a thing.


----------



## DuckDecoy (Jul 31, 2009)

I read the whole thread and I don't get it. If someone doesn't like the rules - they should not compete...


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> How come it's always the LOSERS who complain about the rules being unfair???
> You never hear the winners saying such a thing.


Exactly!!


----------



## clg9mm (Nov 21, 2008)

Fair - The place you go to ride the ferris wheel and eat cotton candy.

No wonder we as a country are in trouble, everybody wants something for free or they are being discriminated against. Let's just stop keeping score so nobody gets there ego crushed when they aren't as good as mommy told them they were.ukey:


----------



## Rnfrazier (Sep 7, 2008)

I think that you just need to learn to have fun. You had a bad day and someone shot better. Get over it. I am a short draw at 27" and I don't complain whether my bow is shooting 250 or over 300. If I practice and do everything right, I can't ask for more.


----------



## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

XForce Girl said:


> How come it's always the LOSERS who complain about the rules being unfair???
> You never hear the winners saying such a thing.


:set1_signs009:


----------



## McGinnis7 (Feb 12, 2010)

Bowtechie said:


> A 40-50 fps difference in speed does not make as much difference as you think. I have an Archery software program(TAP) that you can try out different speed bows shooting at virtual targets and can vary the difference in what the actual target distance is and what you set your sight for and it will show you where your arrows hit. In the picture below the top dot is with a 350 fps bow shooting a 45 yard target and underjudging 3 yards. The lower dot is out of a 300 fps bow with the same target distance and misjudge. Both 8's.


But at the same time that could be a 12 over a 10.


----------



## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

XForce Girl said:


> How come it's always the LOSERS who complain about the rules being unfair???
> You never hear the winners saying such a thing.


Marcy,
Suggest to the ASA that they create a whiners class in which "Everyone gets a trophy so no one feels they were cheated because of;
short draw bows aren't fast 
the guy that won didn't have to shoot in the wind 
the targets were leaning everytime I shot 

I,m sure you've heard some great ones.


----------



## tedlebo (Jul 5, 2005)

mag41vance said:


> Marcy,
> Suggest to the ASA that they create a whiners class in which "Everyone gets a trophy so no one feels they were cheated because of;
> short draw bows aren't fast
> the guy that won didn't have to shoot in the wind
> ...



Just as I shot, there was a fluctuation in the earth's gravitational pull that let my arrow fall 1 foot.

Just as I shot, there was a fluctuation in the earth's magnetic field and my steel field point followed it and hit a full 18 inches to the right.


Of course, if my bow was as fast as the other guys', the arrow would have passed right through there without anY deviation of it's path.


----------



## hdrat (Mar 7, 2009)

As someone told me. JUST SHUT UP AND SHOOT!


----------



## rick prather (Aug 23, 2007)

*ibo-asa-speed*

maybe we should all shoot pool....there is no stroke limit


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I have an idea....Why don't all of the short draw shooters ( long ones too) take a shot at shooting field? The distances are marked, the targets are big, and it will definitely make your archery skills better. Yes, I know I'm on the wrong forum, but I just thought I'd take a look over here and see what's going on. I've been a spottie for a zillion years, and have just bought a bow specially to get my feet wet in ASA.:cocktail::cocktail:


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> I have an idea....Why don't all of the short draw shooters ( long ones too) take a shot at shooting field? The distances are marked, the targets are big, and it will definitely make your archery skills better. Yes, I know I'm on the wrong forum, but I just thought I'd take a look over here and see what's going on. I've been a spottie for a zillion years, and have just bought a bow specially to get my feet wet in ASA.:cocktail::cocktail:


Lots of it is because 80 yards and 70 yards at a target greater than 2 FEET in diameter, mounted on a bale that is 4 foot square....is TOO FAR to shoot! 2 arrows all day at 80 yards and 2 arrows all day at 70 yards...but it is too far!
However, these same people will pay $1 for 3 shots at a turkey out at 100 yards or more, UNMARKED across a field...and sling arrows into the trees all day long...and LAUGH about it!

In addition....112 shots in a day....???? Too many arrows, they say, and it "takes so long" (4 hours for 112 arrows)....but the same folks will go and pay out tons of money for a weekend...to shoot 40 shots over two days...and take at least 4 hours and most times MORE than than for 20 shots each day. But taking that long for 20 shots is just fine...cuz they "want to be with friends"......One shot every 25 minutes is OK with them...but 112 shots in 4 hours...is too LONG....?????????????? Oh, really?

It is like SOME are thinking.....I'm used to shooting only ONE shot every 20-25 minutes...and now you want me to shoot FOUR SHOTS in only a couple of minutes? You want me to WHAT? You have GOT to be kidding me!


No matter how field was changed, ya ain't gonna get many of the chewies to "bite into it"....those that are doing the "field thing" however....are finding out that gee whiz..."I get to SHOOT MY BOW and LOTS of arrows" and there are NO EXCUSES, and there IS a challenge to it because the gratification is in being able to execute a proper shot 4 times in a row to get a "20" AND doing it 112 times in 4 hours.

Blast away if you want...but the above is indeed the TRUTH about a LOT of the chewies out there!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

field14 said:


> Lots of it is because 80 yards and 70 yards at a target greater than 2 FEET in diameter, mounted on a bale that is 4 foot square....is TOO FAR to shoot! 2 arrows all day at 80 yards and 2 arrows all day at 70 yards...but it is too far!
> However, these same people will pay $1 for 3 shots at a turkey out at 100 yards or more, UNMARKED across a field...and sling arrows into the trees all day long...and LAUGH about it!
> 
> In addition....112 shots in a day....???? Too many arrows, they say, and it "takes so long" (4 hours for 112 arrows)....but the same folks will go and pay out tons of money for a weekend...to shoot 40 shots over two days...and take at least 4 hours and most times MORE than than for 20 shots each day. But taking that long for 20 shots is just fine...cuz they "want to be with friends"......One shot every 25 minutes is OK with them...but 112 shots in 4 hours...is too LONG....?????????????? Oh, really?
> ...


Thanks for posting that, i think i am gonna give field a try this year now......:thumb:


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

field14 said:


> Lots of it is because 80 yards and 70 yards at a target greater than 2 FEET in diameter, mounted on a bale that is 4 foot square....is TOO FAR to shoot! 2 arrows all day at 80 yards and 2 arrows all day at 70 yards...but it is too far!
> However, these same people will pay $1 for 3 shots at a turkey out at 100 yards or more, UNMARKED across a field...and sling arrows into the trees all day long...and LAUGH about it!
> 
> In addition....112 shots in a day....???? Too many arrows, they say, and it "takes so long" (4 hours for 112 arrows)....but the same folks will go and pay out tons of money for a weekend...to shoot 40 shots over two days...and take at least 4 hours and most times MORE than than for 20 shots each day. But taking that long for 20 shots is just fine...cuz they "want to be with friends"......One shot every 25 minutes is OK with them...but 112 shots in 4 hours...is too LONG....?????????????? Oh, really?
> ...


Tom, wouldn't be great if some of these guys would take the dare and come back and tell us how much fun they had and how much they have learned from shooting field? But I won't hold my breath....Gus


----------



## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

Unclegus said:


> I have an idea....Why don't all of the short draw shooters ( long ones too) take a shot at shooting field? The distances are marked, the targets are big, and it will definitely make your archery skills better. Yes, I know I'm on the wrong forum, but I just thought I'd take a look over here and see what's going on. I've been a spottie for a zillion years, and have just bought a bow specially to get my feet wet in ASA.:cocktail::cocktail:


I'm giving field shooting a try this year... after watching a couple rounds last year(and the Lure of 'Javi'), looks like something I could go for.

I like shooting LOTS of arrows.:darkbeer:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

field14 said:


> Lots of it is because 80 yards and 70 yards at a target greater than 2 FEET in diameter, mounted on a bale that is 4 foot square....is TOO FAR to shoot! 2 arrows all day at 80 yards and 2 arrows all day at 70 yards...but it is too far!
> However, these same people will pay $1 for 3 shots at a turkey out at 100 yards or more, UNMARKED across a field...and sling arrows into the trees all day long...and LAUGH about it!
> 
> In addition....112 shots in a day....???? Too many arrows, they say, and it "takes so long" (4 hours for 112 arrows)....but the same folks will go and pay out tons of money for a weekend...to shoot 40 shots over two days...and take at least 4 hours and most times MORE than than for 20 shots each day. But taking that long for 20 shots is just fine...cuz they "want to be with friends"......One shot every 25 minutes is OK with them...but 112 shots in 4 hours...is too LONG....?????????????? Oh, really?
> ...


 I shot field and hunter from the time I was 4 until about 20, the sport kind of came to a halt in my town. I did the 3d thing when it first was getting big, but it wasn't the same. I started shooting (competitively) again about a year ago. I had a hard time finding spot shoots until about a month ago. Yes field is much more fun and makes you a much better shot IMO. Don't get me wrong, I also love the challenge of unmarked 3D. Still a lot of truth to the above post.


----------



## bowhunter_300 (Dec 12, 2003)

hahaha this thread is hilarious, if your a short draw shooter buy a destroyer 350, if you want to talk about fair, how about me having to SLOW my bows down to shoot 280 how is that FAIR to me, learn to judge your yardage or don't and quit complaining, 3-d isn't just how good of a shot you are it's a test of your yardage judging skills and shooting ability :banana::smile_red_bike:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Thats ABA not ibo HAHAHA????


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

bowhunter_300 said:


> hahaha this thread is hilarious, if your a short draw shooter buy a destroyer 350, if you want to talk about fair, how about me having to SLOW my bows down to shoot 280 how is that FAIR to me, learn to judge your yardage or don't and quit complaining, 3-d isn't just how good of a shot you are it's a test of your yardage judging skills and shooting ability :banana::smile_red_bike:


If this is about shooting skill and guessing yardage what isn't fair about all bows shooting the same speed like in ASA? Sounds like sour grapes to me...


----------



## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

Very little advantage is gained from shooting 320 vs 280. Punch it into any sight tape program and you can see what im talking about. Believe it or Not.


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Unclegus said:


> If this is about shooting skill and guessing yardage what isn't fair about all bows shooting the same speed like in ASA? Sounds like sour grapes to me...


 This is about IBO, ASA is different which gives all archers the ability to shoot the same speed. That in turn makes a misjudged shot the same for everyone. 2 inches less of a drop is a advantage, it's a fact. If it's not that much difference then why have rules that limit arrow speed?


----------



## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Very little advantage is gained from shooting 320 vs 280. Punch it into any sight tape program and you can see what im talking about. Believe it or Not.


yep

You never hear people complaining at indoor tourneys about fps :wink:


----------



## russdiggins (Feb 10, 2009)

Do you even know what I am talking about? Of course no one complains about indoor spot's the yardage is known. Therefore it makes no difference. 2 inches is the difference of two points some times 5 in unmarked 3d. Once again if you don't understand the subject educate your self before posting.


----------



## Ryan.Johnson (Nov 9, 2006)

I just got sucked into this thread and DANG I just lost about 5 min of my life that I can not get back!! Hope you find what your looking for.


----------



## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

russdiggins said:


> Do you even know what I am talking about? Of course no one complains about indoor spot's the yardage is known. Therefore it makes no difference. 2 inches is the difference of two points some times 5 in unmarked 3d. Once again if you don't understand the subject educate your self before posting.


I am fully aware what you are typing.My point exactly why no one complains about it indoors(it's not the name of the game)Lets see 80-90% of 3d game is yardage why wouldnt you practice that?

People looking for the extra speed are trying to make up for yardage mistakes.ask the people how fast they are shooting at marked yardage tourneys.So IF you knew the yardage some people wouldnt be mad at the game.Good Luck

So if we know the yardage indoors why do we miss?


----------



## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

Ryan.Johnson said:


> I just got sucked into this thread and DANG I just lost about 5 min of my life that I can not get back!! Hope you find what your looking for.


yea me too

I'm always looking for ways to improve myself no matter if its at work or at archery


----------



## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

russdiggins said:


> This is about IBO, ASA is different which gives all archers the ability to shoot the same speed. That in turn makes a misjudged shot the same for everyone. 2 inches less of a drop is a advantage, it's a fact. If it's not that much difference then why have rules that limit arrow speed?


Because the people who make the rules are just as ignorant of the facts as others. Check out a arrow speed program from Lancaster it shows the drop of the arrow at difference speeds based on your numbers. You would be shocked at how little difference 20, 30, or 40 fps make at 50 yards. Unless of course the computer is wrong.


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I understand the rule difference between IBO and ASA. I think if I felt I was at that much of a disadvantage in IBO, I'd do my homework and figure a way to even up the odds or shoot in another venue where I felt the rules evened the playing field to my satisfaction. Regardless, remember you're not shooting against other archers, you're shooting against yourself..That's the only one you have any control over.....


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*another quandry*

Ok, how about how the disadvantage that someone that comes from a flat state, and have to shoot a competition in a state with mountains and varying terrain, like worlds, in NY? someone could complain that it is not fair that they come from Florida or Georgia, and have to shoot in NY? that "to be fair" have to shoot in a Wal-Mart Parking lot?... The bottom line is that "someone" will always have an advantage , and someone will always have a disadvantage. Kinda like the "real" world.. the key is to do the best you can with what you have. So if you shoot a Destroyer, or a Pro elite, or a Genesis.. lol, be happy you live in a country where you can still own a bow.


----------



## cindysnyder (Apr 7, 2010)

I agree. You can't please everyone all the time. I have a 26 3/4 DL but I practice to shoot the best I can. I practice judging ydg everyday so I won't have a large error margin on that 50yd shot.


----------



## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

russdiggins said:


> Do you even know what I am talking about? Of course no one complains about indoor spot's the yardage is known. Therefore it makes no difference. 2 inches is the difference of two points some times 5 in unmarked 3d. Once again if you don't understand the subject educate your self before posting.


You keep going back to "misjudging distance" as the reason for wanting to level the playing field by imposing speed limits or allowing unsafe arrows to increase your arrow speed. This is not a personal blast but is it not possible you will benefit more by improving your yardage estimation skills? By doing so, the speed of your arrows shouldn't be as much a player in your overall score. The whole reason 3D courses are set up the way they are is to try to confuse you about the distance to the target. Based on many of the posts here, increasing your arrow speed a few fps is not going to make much difference in your arrows POI. If your judging is off you're going to miss.


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I think a better question to address is where do these guys who are complaining about the disadvantage of short draw finish in the pack when it's a 280 Speed limit and everyone is equal.....:cocktail:


----------



## 3dshooter80 (Mar 13, 2006)

russdiggins said:


> The rules were wrote in 1984. What were the bows shooting in 84? most of you weren't shooting then so I'll tell ya. 220 was a fast bow, cables were really cables, limbs were wood and some still had brackets, risers were pored magnesium, strings were probably still dacron. Jump ahead 26 years to 2010 what does the average bow shoot? materials are ??? The rules will change, and yes I do expect the IBO to change their archaic and bias 5gpp rule or at least modify it so that when I shoot against you taller and superior athletes. I can shoot the same speed arrow you do if I chose to.


Who cares when the rules were written. The rules are the rules. The constitution was written a couple hundred years ago... you think that it should be changed to suit you too? This type of whiney liberal "fairness" bullcrap is exactly why we have to have so many classes at our local 3d shoots that we end up with 2-3 people in most of them. Nobody likes it if they can't have the rules set up to give them the best chance to win. 
By simply attending an IBO shoot you are saying at the time of paying your entry fee that you agree to the rules and regulations of the event. Same thing with ASA. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. 
Maybe we need Government run archery shoots where everybody can get a trophy...


----------



## kkromer (Sep 14, 2004)

I say when Obama is done being president we bring him in to sit over all of the archery organizations and he can bring in a team of surgeons to cut bone off of some archers and then add it to others. At a tremendous expense and unbelievable pain to us all... Then we would all be a nice socialist archery world, we would all be equal and it would just be based on personal ability, oh well we'd all need to have equal ability too - not sure how we address that part... I'm kiding of course so nobody get your panties in a wad.

In all seriousness, there is no way to be totally equal. The long draw guys can shoot higher brace height, longer axle bows and get more speed, sure. But did it every occur to you that the power stroke they have to deal with is much longer and has the opportunity to be more critical to shoot? At an 8" brace height coming to 30" draw, you have a 22" power stroke say it's going 300 FPS. A bow with a 6" brace height and a guy shooting a 28" draw has a 22" power stroke and it's going 300fps... 

You have to get over the fairness thing in your mind and shoot, that's all there is to it...


----------



## Bowbuster (Dec 9, 2004)

kkromer said:


> I say when Obama is done being president we bring him in to sit over all of the archery organizations and he can bring in a team of surgeons to cut bone off of some archers and then add it to others. At a tremendous expense and unbelievable pain to us all... Then we would all be a nice socialist archery world, we would all be equal and it would just be based on personal ability, oh well we'd all need to have equal ability too - not sure how we address that part... I'm kiding of course so nobody get your panties in a wad.
> 
> In all seriousness, there is no way to be totally equal. The long draw guys can shoot higher brace height, longer axle bows and get more speed, sure. But did it every occur to you that the power stroke they have to deal with is much longer and has the opportunity to be more critical to shoot? At an 8" brace height coming to 30" draw, you have a 22" power stroke say it's going 300 FPS. A bow with a 6" brace height and a guy shooting a 28" draw has a 22" power stroke and it's going 300fps...
> 
> You have to get over the fairness thing in your mind and shoot, that's all there is to it...


You said the "O" wordukey:, i am so out of this thread now......


----------



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

field14 said:


> Lots of it is because 80 yards and 70 yards at a target greater than 2 FEET in diameter, mounted on a bale that is 4 foot square....is TOO FAR to shoot! 2 arrows all day at 80 yards and 2 arrows all day at 70 yards...but it is too far!
> However, these same people will pay $1 for 3 shots at a turkey out at 100 yards or more, UNMARKED across a field...and sling arrows into the trees all day long...and LAUGH about it!
> 
> In addition....112 shots in a day....???? Too many arrows, they say, and it "takes so long" (4 hours for 112 arrows)....but the same folks will go and pay out tons of money for a weekend...to shoot 40 shots over two days...and take at least 4 hours and most times MORE than than for 20 shots each day. But taking that long for 20 shots is just fine...cuz they "want to be with friends"......One shot every 25 minutes is OK with them...but 112 shots in 4 hours...is too LONG....?????????????? Oh, really?
> ...


I've tried field several times. The only thing it does is give me a royal dose of target panic. I absolutely hate that stupid black dot with a white background of the field target. The hunter round field target is passable but I hate the straight up field target and refuse to shoot it.


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Punch_Master said:


> I've tried field several times. The only thing it does is give me a royal dose of target panic. I absolutely hate that stupid black dot with a white background of the field target. The hunter round field target is passable but I hate the straight up field target and refuse to shoot it.


Sounds like the problem is somewhere between the right ear and the left ear..I had it on the field face too until I put a big circle in my scope.....


----------



## misterfell (Nov 20, 2009)

your right the speed rule and grain rule are not fair.nascar is a very good example of this.all the cars have to meet the same specs then its up to drivers and teams to win.asa is a better and more fair sport imho jeff


----------



## CRAZYRICK1 (Dec 26, 2009)

Bird Dogg said:


> Ok, how about how the disadvantage that someone that comes from a flat state, and have to shoot a competition in a state with mountains and varying terrain, like worlds, in NY? someone could complain that it is not fair that they come from Florida or Georgia, and have to shoot in NY? that "to be fair" have to shoot in a Wal-Mart Parking lot?... The bottom line is that "someone" will always have an advantage , and someone will always have a disadvantage. Kinda like the "real" world.. the key is to do the best you can with what you have. So if you shoot a Destroyer, or a Pro elite, or a Genesis.. lol, be happy you live in a country where you can still own a bow.


I'd love to have the chance to come up there and shoot in the mountains. For me, its all about the challenge and having fun. Its not about trophies

Rick, from FLA:wink:


----------



## LadyBowtech (Feb 12, 2009)

I have a short drawlength also,25.5inch, shooting 53lbs, cant tell ya what my bow shoots for speed somewhere in the 260s or so, but what i can tell you is this, if my yardage is on, my concentration is on point, and my aiming point is accurate I can reach the targets just as anyone else....I shoot indoors and outdoors and when I dont get a 10 or an x i was off on one of the things listed above.....people put so much emphasis on speed and not enough on perfecting their form and judgement, always remember the faster the bow the faster the miss if all is not working together....just my opinion


----------



## thndrr (Feb 8, 2004)

russdiggins said:


> This is about IBO, ASA is different which gives all archers the ability to shoot the same speed. That in turn makes a misjudged shot the same for everyone. 2 inches less of a drop is a advantage, it's a fact. If it's not that much difference then why have rules that limit arrow speed?


 I've read through this whole thread waiting for this post. You said you're an engineer? Do you honestly believe that a 300 grn arrow has the same characteristics as a 400 grn arrow at 280 and say a 45 yd. target? Heavy arrows carry better at longer ranges. How in the world will we make this fair for you?


----------



## NoChance44 (Dec 29, 2009)

*drop it?*

Maybe we can drop this now? Or maybe everyone shoots the same speed with arrows that have the same weight and same drag coefficients. Good luck with the testing. Lets drop this thread and get out and shoot and have some fun!


----------



## getumspike (Aug 29, 2009)

*Isn't that what sports are all about?*

If it was a race, should the track be shorter for people with shorter legs? Should they lower the hoop when a shorter person tries to dunk in basketball? You could go through every sport and point out inequalities. Sports are designed to push the physical limits of the players. Usually giving an advantage to the bigger, stronger, and faster. So, the smaller, weaker, and slower have to find a way to be better at other aspects. 

For the record
I am 6'2" about 200lbs and pretty athletic
I am not for or against any rule changes

Funny thing is sometimes I am at a disadvantage because of my hieght. The people at my archery club that set up the 3d shoots are all under 6'. So, many of the targets are set up to shoot between tree branches or set up to shoot from a position under foilage. While most archers can stand comfortably I have to put my self in an akward shooting stance to get under or shoot under the same things that most do not. I am not saying that it evens the playing field, just saying that things will never be completely equal. 

It seems to me that you started this thread looking for people that share your opinion and it didn't happen. I say keep shooting if your having fun, if your not complain to the people that can actually do something about it (I'm not sure who that would be) or start your own league with your rules and see how that goes.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## dgirt (Jul 1, 2003)

There are several bows out there that will get over 280 at 26" draw lengths. And most of the IBO guys are not pushing the 5 GPP arrow weight as much as you think.
I know that Dartons 3800 is over300 fps at a 26" draw length. PSE, Monster, Bowtech and propbly several other I can't think of.
Most people thing that if they have a 320 or faster bow they don't have to judge yardage. Their wrong. Theres alot of fast bows out there to be had. But no bow can over come poor yardage judging or poor shooting ability.


----------



## trimantrekokc (May 16, 2006)

ultimately you have a choice....deal with the way GOD made you and make the best of it. or quit shooting in 3d...maybe spots would be better since it doesn't matter how fast you shoot.....
i honestly can't believe the whiney butt attitude....grow up and quit expecting someone to cater to YOUR wants and needs....it's up to you to provide or deal with the adversities....

like i tell my teenage stepson, life's not fair, deal with it.....be thankful your able bodied and can participate in this activity, som ewill never know the pleasure of drawing a bow or even being able to shoot a gun


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*again*

as I said before, im 6'3", 30 inch draw, shooting a 2010 maxxis, 372 grain arrow at 287 fps... that doesnt sound like the big advantage that you guys are making it out to be. My heavier arrows group better for me than min weight arrows. I have friends with 28 inch draw shooting a destroyer around 320 fps... almost 40 fps faster.. doesnt sound like im the one with the advantage.. Even if I shot 300 grain arrows on my "maxxis" i would be lucky to get little over 300... 
So Maybe everyone that competes should have an omen, or destroyer... The WHOLE problem with your arguement is that people shoot different brands and different model bows...UNLIKE nascar where everyones car is near Identical, you pick the bow you want to compete with.... Some people like long ata some short, big brace, short brace... unless everyone is willing to shoot the same brand, and model this arguement is mute.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

NoChance44 said:


> Maybe we can drop this now? Or maybe everyone shoots the same speed with arrows that have the same weight and same drag coefficients. Good luck with the testing. Lets drop this thread and get out and shoot and have some fun!


we need to let this poor boy cry in peace.


----------



## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

*3d rules*

I THINK YOU SHOULD CORK YOUR BOW,TAKE PROZAC,AND GROW LONGER ARMS! OH BY THE WAY I HAVE A 32 IN. DRAW LENGTH.:darkbeer:


----------



## MAXXIS31 (Dec 15, 2009)

Stop your whinning and either (buy a speed bow, a bow turbo, shoot a lighter arrow, shoot a higher poundage bow, or put a extended grip on your bow to lengthen your draw and lessen your brace height). Other wise learn to judge distance better.

If you can't judge distance well what are you going to do when you are hunting and don't have time to get out the range finder? There isn't any rules then just a guy with a poorly placed shoot and wounded animal. Or a missed opertunity. 

Thats my 2 cents, Fred bear could out shoot you with a long bow shooting under 200fps:wink: Never heard him whining


----------



## greimer (Feb 13, 2007)

Just shoot asa and don't worry about IBO...


----------



## Stickchuker (Jun 12, 2008)

This has been funny. I agree that the nanny state mentality of legislated fairness is bunk. I don't see how IBO could fix the problem safely with arrow speed and such. Under 5gr/inch isn't ok with me. I don't personally want anyone launch that beside me at a shoot. It definetly increases the chances of a carbon cloud and I am sure the majority would feel that way. The idea of limiting velocity to 300fps or whatever is fine, but the ASA is already doing that.
So there is your solution; start promoting and pushing ASA rule shoots.
Fair in life is subjective; the bigger the whiner in ya, the more life is unfair.

BTW I am new to the sport and its threads like these that start to PMRO and make me wanna quit before I start.


----------



## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*speed*

I disagree with that.
as bows get faster, I think push the stake back. you want to shoot 400fps, eventually, fine, we will make you judge yardage by pushing stake back to 60yards or maybe 70, then yardage will factor again. 
I shoot MBO. Max, 50 yards, go to IBO shoot and see how many targets are under 30.. hardly any... all are 35-50.... 
Maybe anyone shooting speed bow has to shoot MBR or MBO, move the stake back to 60... The guys who win will still know their yardage.


----------

