# Never been coached - looking for thoughts



## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

20 yards with an Elite Hunter 27.5" 68#


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Your bow does not fit you. It's not even close. We cannot evaluate your form until you take several inches off of the bow's draw length. A good rule of thumb is that at full draw, the nock of the arrow should be directly below your eye. The Nuts & Bolts download in the General Discussion forum can give you more information on this.

Surprisingly, it looks like you may be doing a lot of things right. Get the DL fixed and we can get a better idea of what you are doing.

Get some help with this. You'll be glad you did.

JMHO,
Allen


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

It's way too long? I've been measured at two different bow shops - I'm a normal sized 5'10 165 and the DL is 27.5". At anchor the string is just past the tip of my nose. Guess I'll go down to the shop and get measured again. I definitely want to get it right.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't think your draw length looks that bad, maybe your release is a bit long but other than that the string hits your face fine, the nock is below your eye, you're not leaning, your arm is bent so looks fine. I'd like you get a better look at your grip, I think you're getting too much hand into it and a if you rotated your arm so your knuckles are at 45 degrees from horizontal that would help. Also, I'd like to see your draw arm elbow get a little higher so it's at least in line with the arrow, maybe a touch higher.


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

Will get the wife to get some close up pics tomorrow of the grip as well as the release hand - I think it may be too long as well because it feels like I need to 'reach' for the trigger.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

avluey said:


> It's way too long? I've been measured at two different bow shops - I'm a normal sized 5'10 165 and the DL is 27.5". At anchor the string is just past the tip of my nose. Guess I'll go down to the shop and get measured again. I definitely want to get it right.


I may be over reacting on the "several inches". After a closer look, the DL is long, but not by that much. The thing that makes it look long is how you are holding your release arm. It isn't in line with the arrow and that's typically a symptom of a long DL. 

Can you get your release forearm to align with the arrow at your current DL?

Allen


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

Yeah - that's the thing that sticks out to me when I compare my video to better shooters - my release arm is funny looking with the forearm noticeably above the biceps. I will go see if I can get that lined up better. Should I consider a back tension release? It seems like the distance from my hand to the loop would be much shorter with one which might (might) make it easier to get everything in better alignment.


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## sightmaster (Jul 1, 2011)

your dl is too short. take it back im just taking a guess about mabey 1 in. extend your arm all the way out and point it at the target the pull back if you havent changed the dl then your realease prablably wil be at the corner of your lip. that's where your d loop should be. my d loop is abot 3cm. back from my lip thats fine to.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

It's hard to tell but I almost think your bow arm is a little too bent. This may be causing the low elbow. If that's not actually as bent as it looks, try shortening your release. This should pull up that elbow as well.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

Allen, is 100% you have lots of issues..........


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## ironworker172 (Feb 12, 2012)

It would help if you had the proper stance. It appears that you are shooting with an open stance, you need to bring your left foot to the right so both feet are aligned with the target. If you lay an arrow at the tips of your feet it should be pointed to the target. Mike, Allen........am I correct?


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

I am no coach, so take this for what it is worth. Looks like you are bending your wrist at the end of your draw. To me, that is why your forearm and elbo looks the way they do. Again, I am no coach, so just watch your vidio and think about it.


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

Again, I am no coach, but I think Ironworker hit on it. With your stance open like that, it makes you pull further back giving you the bent wrist. I should talk, because I have a slight open stance myself, bad habit from when I had a poor grip and would hit my arm. If you are also a golfer, think of how you address the ball, do the same thing in archery, line across feet should hit target you want to aim at.

Ches.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

A good shot starts with a good foundation. It all starts from the ground up. I do not reccomend any shooter to start with no more than a slightly open stance. The shoulders need to be as square to the target as possible. With the "Kisik lee" (really open) stance it requires more core muscle involvement to twist to get the shoulders squared up. A closed stance allows the archer to come into correct form more naturally. As mentioned above, the change in stance can change your draw. The more closed the stance them more length needed. It may only be a small amount but it's still a change. I prefer a slightly closed stance to keep the distance from from draw arm shoulder as close to the arrow as possible. This is known as the gun barrel. You will notice now how archers using the NTS seem to roll their bow arm shoulder into the arrow. This makes for a real tight gun barrel. When learning it is important to establish your form correctly and find what works for you. Making changes to something that is engrained into your subconscious is hard to break. Although your set up should be a conscious act - that tends to change over time and as the archer progresses and gets more confident in his form. Vic Wunderle said changing his form would take a year to do, to keep him at an Olympic level. 

That's my take.


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

Really appreciate the continued comments - I have been working on fixing my footwork, the golf comparison makes perfect sense to me. Also see what was said about too much bend in the bow arm and am working on getting it straightened out more. I also just bought a thumb release (Tru-Fire Edge 4) which I'm hoping helps straighten out my draw arm. Will get my wife to video me again soon and repost to see if I'm making proper application to the suggested adjustments.

Just bought my wife and 5 year old son bows so I want to make sure I have a good understanding of the basics and don't impart my own bad habits onto them.


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

Switched to a TruFire Edge 4 thumb release, got my feet inline with the target, and tried to straighten my bow arm out a little. Improvement?


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## ironworker172 (Feb 12, 2012)

Looks much better to me. I'll let the pro's take it from here.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Much better. How does it feel and has your accuracy improved?

Allen


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

Feels pretty comfortable, just have to take a little more time b/c my natural tendency is to stand closed just like before. I would say that in the limited sample size I am slightly more accurate at 20 yards and a little less accurate at 30 yards (though I've probably only shot 20 arrows at 30 so far). Need more practice but definitely sticking with it.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

From the little that I can see on the video, your DL looks pretty good. You will want to fine tune it eventually, but for now it seems OK.

I'd recommend that you work on shooting only good shots. Patience at full draw and let the bow shoot itself. Read da white shoe's long posts on form, it will give you a lot of things to work on.

Let us know how you are doing.

Allen


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Typical on here, dl to long, next to short. start with the first issue, you are punching. Watch your front hand, open (bad) then you snap it closed as you release ( worse). What I would do if standing next to you is wait till you were at full draw, and hit your trigger and watch your reaction, that feeling would be the surprise you should be getting


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

I did not change the DL on the bow, just my stance and the release. Do I need to look at getting a mod for a slightly longer DL? Will work on the grip as well - I had been told by the guy at the first bow shop I went to to use an open grip like that. What do you suggest?


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

aread said:


> From the little that I can see on the video, your DL looks pretty good. You will want to fine tune it eventually, but for now it seems OK.
> 
> I'd recommend that you work on shooting only good shots. Patience at full draw and let the bow shoot itself. Read da white shoe's long posts on form, it will give you a lot of things to work on.
> 
> ...


Trying to find da white shoe's post, but am not finding them in coaches corner - are they somewhere else?


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Still punching, anticipating your flinching your left hand closed


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

here is one:



da white shoe said:


> You are correct... consistancy is everything in shooting a bow accurately! Learning to shoot a bow the correct way is pretty tough when you're just starting out and no one around you knows anything about it. I went for years and years doing it the *wrong* way! Unfortunately, most people learn to shoot a bow the wrong way. Shooting a bow the wrong way is fun too, just not nearly AS fun! And it will someday lead to frustration and disappointment. It is a lot harder to re-learn how to shoot a bow than it is to just learn it correctly from the beginning. Believe me! This is some of the things that I would've loved to have known when I was just starting out. Learn to shoot a bow this way, even with inexpensive equipment, and you'll be shooting better than most of the guys with the top of the line stuff! So, here you go....
> 
> If you had a deer rifle at the range, bench rested over sandbags and you were trying to hit a 3" spot at 300 yards, my guess is you would seldom, if ever hit it unless the shot took you by surprise. The minute you try to control the trigger on that rifle, that 3" spot is going to be pretty safe. Bows are different, in that we can't bench them down to shoot. We have to physically hold the weight of the bowstring back at full draw, yet, at the same time we have to find a way for the bow to launch the arrow while introducing the least amount of influence on that shot with our muscles and minds. Your mind is always going to be faster than your reflexes. The best way to eliminate human error when shooting a bow is by using correct form, a back tension shot and a surprise release.
> 
> ...


All credit for this excellent post goes to Zane,

Allen


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## avluey (Dec 31, 2010)

Spent a whole lot of time at the range today shooting 20 - 30 - 40 - and even 50 yard shots (got into a good groove) as well as a couple of spins through the 3D lanes. There is certainly plenty left to work on, but man I am shooting so much better than I ever have! I could not be more confident for tomorrow's opener - I'm driving tacks from 35 yards in and I really want to thank all of you that are helping make me a better archer. Will get another video done soon to make sure I keep moving in the right direction. I think da white shoe's post above will keep me busy for awhile trying to get it straight; great read. Thanks again guys and wish me luck tomorrow.


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