# How important is the stiffness of a stabilizer rod



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

What have you noticed in score from going to a stiffer stabilizer rod? I have shot stabilizers that took 2 seconds to quit springing around after I drew the bow. So I want a rod that settles fairly quickly. Once the stabilizer stops moving I am happy. 

Since a stabilizer should react pretty much from shot to shot, will a stiff stabilizer help keep your arrows in the X?


----------



## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Stiffness is paramount when talking about long stabilizer rods. If the stab has a lot of flex in it, it won't be very good at doing it's job. The ideal stabilizer will weigh next to nothing and be absolutely stiff with zero flex. That will allow you to move the weight farther from the bow and keep it stationary to aid in actually stabilizing the bow. If your stab flexes, the bow will be moving as far as the flex allows before the weight on the end of the stabilizer can stop that movement.

GRIV touches on this subject in this http://www.archerylearningcenter.com/blog/stabilizers


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Light and stiff is most desired. If bending in the draw cycle or hitting full draw then it's junk to me. Some rods are quite good provided that too much weight isn't used. Rods that do bend can be shortened to make them more stiff, not unlike arrows when speaking of spine. And then just because so and so has a 30" rod doesn't mean that a 26" won't get the job done....


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I have tried Fivics, Carbofast and Doinker Platinums, all have very stiff rods with great characteristics and the price is following that sequence...


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I asked this question because I noticed that most want a stiff stabilizer.

I was thinking that once a stabilizer stopped moving after the draw that the stabilizer would react to the shot exactly as it reacted to the previous shot. If this was the case then I didn't see how a stiffer rod could have such an advantage. If using a shooting machine I would expect the arrows to go in the same hole no matter how stiff the stabilizer.


----------



## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

jim p said:


> I asked this question because I noticed that most want a stiff stabilizer.
> 
> I was thinking that once a stabilizer stopped moving after the draw that the stabilizer would react to the shot exactly as it reacted to the previous shot. If this was the case then I didn't see how a stiffer rod could have such an advantage. If using a shooting machine I would expect the arrows to go in the same hole no matter how stiff the stabilizer.


I don't think it has as much to do with what happens to the bow after the release opens as it does before the release opens. Of course if the bow jumps a lot and is able to move before the arrow leaves the string, that will change things but if a stabilizer allows you to have a larger float because it flexes too much, then the stabilizer isn't really doing its job.


----------



## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

From my experience it takes a pretty flimsy rod to make a difference. When I switched from my posten aluminum rods to my doinker fatties there was a huge benefit, since I have tried doinker platinum and b stinger premiers both great but didn't see any improvement in scores over it. I think the stiffness helps slow your sight once you hit full draw faster. With my posten I would have to wait for the bar to stop wiggling to start my shot. As far as helping after the release I doubt any do much, but then again that's really not what they are designed for. A bare bow will shoot great in a machine.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> I have tried Fivics, Carbofast and Doinker Platinums, all have very stiff rods with great characteristics and the price is following that sequence...


I had a new Doinker Fatty Supreme and I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. So damned heavy that my bow flipped over so fast I couldn't control it and no weights on the stab....So one of the greatest problems still with us today with target equipment is not able to try something before you buy it.

I've tried quite a few long stabs and one of the best I still have, a older 30" Cartel. By hand you can bend it some, but then it doesn't vibrate or shake the bow at the shot and I've never used more than 4 ounces up front. I've had it on a bunch of bows over the years. See my signature, a new 30" Bee Stinger has proven delightful, but hardly enough to get rid of my old Cartel.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

It seems to me the question should be, "Do the extremely expensive rods make a real difference in score?" 

Several stabilizer companies have advertised stiffer rods recently, but they charge a big premium $ for them. So do the super stiff rods make a difference in score? Or do the normally (but still pretty expensive) rods do just as well?


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

aread said:


> It seems to me the question should be, "Do the extremely expensive rods make a real difference in score?"
> 
> Several stabilizer companies have advertised stiffer rods recently, but they charge a big premium $ for them. So do the super stiff rods make a difference in score? Or do the normally (but still pretty expensive) rods do just as well?


That's a great question. I haven't yet been able to compare the two side by side.


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Ok lets go with the new question.

I am considering getting a SteveinAZ stabilizer because of price. I don't have any experience with the top of the line stabilizers so I might not know if I had a good stabilizer or not.

I have been using a 30" stabilizer that I made from a carbon golf driver. I have 12 ounces of weight on the end and it settles down within a couple of seconds as far as I can tell. But it might continue to cause small movements that I am interpreting as me just not being able to hold still.


----------



## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

jim p said:


> Ok lets go with the new question.
> 
> I am considering getting a SteveinAZ stabilizer because of price. I don't have any experience with the top of the line stabilizers so I might not know if I had a good stabilizer or not.
> 
> I have been using a 30" stabilizer that I made from a carbon golf driver. I have 12 ounces of weight on the end and it settles down within a couple of seconds as far as I can tell. But it might continue to cause small movements that I am interpreting as me just not being able to hold still.


I would put a little bit of money on it that even an inexpensive stabilizer will be more stiff than one made from a driver shaft. I play with stiff flex shafts because of my club head speed and they still flex quite a bit. They're designed to flex some to aid in club head speed. Stabilizer tubes are designed to not flex so even a cheap one, assuming it's not made from junk material, should be stiffer than the driver shaft.


----------



## SupraFreak (Mar 31, 2015)

*Cheap stabs vs "professional"/"commercial"*

I just upgraded from the $30.00 el cheapo stab I bought on eBay to a set of Bee Stinger Premier Plus (30" front, 15" rear). Not only do I stabilize on the target more quickly but (I think more from having 14oz of weight more than anything else) I had to readjust my scope (SureLoc) - all of my arrows were shooting high - which means (I think) the bow dropped less at release and my arrows are flying straighter.

YMMV.


----------



## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

jim p said:


> What have you noticed in score from going to a stiffer stabilizer rod? I have shot stabilizers that took 2 seconds to quit springing around after I drew the bow. So I want a rod that settles fairly quickly. Once the stabilizer stops moving I am happy.
> 
> Since a stabilizer should react pretty much from shot to shot, will a stiff stabilizer help keep your arrows in the X?


Assuming the same hold, float and mass on the end of the stab for each flavor stiffness, you will not see a measurable difference in X count, in my opinion. Stiff stabs work well to minimize settle time, especially with significant weight on them. For bow reaction after the arrow leaves, that really has little impact on my scores. It's more of a 'tell' on how my execution went.

It sounds like you are trying to pinpoint a characteristic to place a one time purchase for the 'correct' stiffness stab. In my experience, it takes experimentation with several stabs to develop a "feel" you excel with. Or, tie two or three driver shafts together and see if you like the increase in stiffness.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been lucky and since getting a full set of stabs I have had good b stingers so I never had to wait for them to settle down when coming to anchor. It is a non issue regardless of how much weight I put on them. I shoot a 33 inch front bar with 20 ounces on it and there is no wiggle when I come to full draw. 

To me finding the perfect weight combo is key to shooting at your highest level and if your stabs can't handle weight then you may not be able to use enough to actually benefit from having long stabs. As far as the stiffness actually helping after the release fires I have a feeling that they don't but before the release fires good stabs clean up your float by eliminating any wiggle as you hit the wall and they allow you to settle in without wasting time.


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I agree that the reduced settle time is very important.

Padgett, I saw where you use 4lbs and 3 ounces of weight on your stabilizers. I am struggling using 2lbs and 3 ounces. You must be one strong fellow. I asked in one post if heavy weights on stabilizers caused injury. Many thought that it would. So how long have you been shooting with the heavy weights?

I am thinking about buying a 36" steveinaz stabilizer and putting it together with hot melt glue so that I can take it apart and shorten the rod if needed. I am thinking about using the longer rod so that I can use less weight because I am having to struggle with holding up my bow as is.


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Watching frame by frame on a slo mo video, you can see the bow does move as the arrow is shot. The stiffer shafts will reduce any up/down motion from the bow, but this IMO would be of little significance. It's going to move the same for each shot. You get more movement out of most rests than you will from the bow moving during the shot.
As others have mentioned, the primary benefit of the stiffer shafts is that you don't get as much wobble when you get to full draw, you have more quality float time at the beginning of your shot (where most hold best) and you don't waste that quality float time waiting for the bow to settle down.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

jim p said:


> I asked this question because I noticed that most want a stiff stabilizer.
> 
> I was thinking that once a stabilizer stopped moving after the draw that the stabilizer would react to the shot exactly as it reacted to the previous shot. If this was the case then I didn't see how a stiffer rod could have such an advantage. If using a shooting machine I would expect the arrows to go in the same hole no matter how stiff the stabilizer.


A rod only needs to be stiff enough to quickly set up the aiming process but a rod that is too limber can take a little while to settle down. There's something to be said for lighter rods as they can have some advantage over the stiffer/heaver rods as you can get the same effect from less end weight. What happens after the shot is much less important than what is happening during the aiming process. Balance is everything.

Recently I have had to lower the mass weight of my bow as I'm just not as strong as I used to be when I was younger. I was shooting the bow at 8.5# with 5.25 Oz's on the front of a 30" front rod and 17.5 Oz's on my 20" side rod. I've since dropped to 1.75 Oz's up front and 10.5 Oz's on the side rod. The result is a 10.5 Oz reduction in mass weight. In order to make this work I had to swing the side rod out quite a bit. The additional side angle is providing the resistance needed in the system to give me the same balance that I had before with much less weight. This also requires that I relax my bow side as much as possible, which is now possible with the reduced weight. I'm currently using my Hi-Mod bars but may try my standard bars to reduce the weight even more.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Here's a video I took of my float last winter but it shows an example of a pretty stiff rod in action with 5.25 Oz's up front. The pre-shot movement you see is me with the rod following it. Part two is with a better hold. You'll also see minimal movement after the shot as well. Note that all carbon rods will flex some after the shot. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Djf7Lm09ts&feature=youtu.be


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jim p said:


> I agree that the reduced settle time is very important.
> 
> Padgett, I saw where you use 4lbs and 3 ounces of weight on your stabilizers. I am struggling using 2lbs and 3 ounces. You must be one strong fellow. I asked in one post if heavy weights on stabilizers caused injury. Many thought that it would. So how long have you been shooting with the heavy weights?
> 
> I am thinking about buying a 36" steveinaz stabilizer and putting it together with hot melt glue so that I can take it apart and shorten the rod if needed. I am thinking about using the longer rod so that I can use less weight because I am having to struggle with holding up my bow as is.


Jim, you need to get rid of that "golf club" stab before you can make a real assessment.
If adding weight to make up for shooter fault then you're looking in the wrong place.
Longer stabs won't help if you're not weighting them properly. Right now I can't think of anyone using a 36" stab. 

Like EPLC noted, balance is everything. With a good set of stabs start out with no weights at all. You then add a little at a time until you find what works for you. 

Maybe you missed it, but George Ryal's, aka Griv, formula works pretty good for getting in the ball park.
Formula;
length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"
Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.
You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.

You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X.
.....................................

Working the formula for my MX2; (I have quick disconnects that add 1" - the front disconnect is a 10 degree down)
31" times 2 = 62 ounces
62 divided by 13 = 4.77 ounces for the back and I'm running two 13" back stabs (these are set 9" out from center).

So I have 2 ounces up front on the 31" stab and 2 ounces on the right back stab and 3 ounces on the left back stab. 
This was working pretty darned good before my accident.


----------



## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

jim p said:


> Ok lets go with the new question.
> 
> I am considering getting a SteveinAZ stabilizer because of price. I don't have any experience with the top of the line stabilizers so I might not know if I had a good stabilizer or not.
> 
> I have been using a 30" stabilizer that I made from a carbon golf driver. I have 12 ounces of weight on the end and it settles down within a couple of seconds as far as I can tell. But it might continue to cause small movements that I am interpreting as me just not being able to hold still.


I have shot b stingers and fuse blades. I now have Steve in AZ stabs on both target bows and they were way stiffer than the carbon blades. They have a slight vibration after the shot but settle extremely quick. I shoot 8 oz at 30". I am shooting the best field scores of my life with this set up (not neccesarily just from the stabs, the set up as a whole).

My entire investment for a front rod and back rod with 35 oz of wt was about 180 tmd.

I guarantee the are stiffer than your golf club and that WILL make a difference.

There are several great stabilizer companies out there and the sky is the limit for what you can pay. Only you can decide how much you want to put into it.

Good luck


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Not that long really in years, I was one of the guys that made my own stabs starting in 2007 using three arrows that ended up being about 18 inches long and front stab only. I then used a golf club shaft to make my first rear bar and washers as weights, I then found a 30 inch win win front rod at the bow shop in a box behind the counter and replaced my three arrow front stab.

To me those two or three years were simply wasted time and avoiding any actual benefit from my setup, I got lucky when I bought a full set of b-stingers at one of my first asa competitions because my buddy had a connection and I got them at cost and they were my current ones that I still use today. They are the competitor series and have done a nice job, I didn't buy the b stinger weights because I just couldn't make myself pay for weights and that is why I now have a nickname Socket Man. I played around with different weight combinations until I found a couple of them that I really enjoyed shooting with and I then took a scale to the orshelins and bought a socket that weighed the right amount and a bolt that had the right threads and in a few minutes I had 33 ounces of weight on my rear bar for about 13 bucks. I actually had a socket at home that weighed 20 ounces for the front one so I didn't have to buy that one.

As far as strengh I am not a strong guy and actually right now I am weaker overall than I have ever been, I am over weight and I am not working out so my fitness or strength really isn't impresive at all. That is why I referred to Shooter Shape earlier, I have learned over the last 30 years that no matter how good of shape I am in it doesn't transfer over to my actual shooting. Many times over the years I came off being a college athlete and then I was a bicycle racer and I have lifted weights and none of those activities ever helped my shooting like actually shooting the bow. 

I don't promote a heavy bow as something that people must use to shoot good, in fact I shoot just as good with lighter combinations as far as my scoring. To me it comes down to feel and I really feel good when i shoot with my current setup and I do believe that my float is smaller and that the weight actually makes me better but when I look at my scores I really can't see a difference. In the end I think you really have to do your work to find a overall setup that you are confident in that feels really solid, I do shoot with other weight combinations on a regualr basis but I always come right back to my favorite one.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One thing that I will touch base on is Wasting Time, I am 45 years old and I have wasted decades doing stupid stuff mainly because I simply didn't know that any of this stuff actually existed. thank god that I actually got around a few good shooters and then found archery talk and the asa curcuit so that I could see what was out there. 

I personally had two of my local pro quality shooters make fun of me and always pick on me that I needed to make some equipment changes and then execution changes and then mental changes of how I play the game and for the most part I ignored what they were saying, it took me over a year and a half before I actually remember making the decision to actually stop allowing myself to justify stupid stuff in my overall approach to shooting. I attacked my bow setup first and of course that was the easy part and then I attacked the execution of my shot second along with the mental aproaches.

In the end I actually believe that my bow setup is a positive part of my overall setup and it is spot on good so that once I master the mental aproaches to winning at the national level it is already ready and isn't needing any tweaking.


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I want to thank everyone that has commented on this thread. You have given me so much information that I greatly needed. I can tell that this information is coming from your hearts and from many years of experience. I am very blessed to have you guys around to help me.

It looks like a little better stabilizer setup and then some experimenting with weights will benefit me. Once this is done then a lot of shooting will be required to improve my score. 

The good news is that I enjoy shooting.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

One thing I had to learn is to relax my bow side because without proper relaxation stabilization changes will have very little effect. The bow has to be able to do it's own thing to understand it's true balance and it can not if there is tension in the system. Tension can and will cancel out any stabilization being provided in the system. Changing bars, weights and ratios will have little effect until the archer learns to relax. Also, how a bow feels at rest means nothing as a bow needs to be balanced at full draw. Formulas can give you a starting point but the individual needs vary so much that this really becomes a trial and error process to understand what works for "you".


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One thing to keep in mind is that you have to look at your overall setup, my bow is a bowtech specialist and it I believe is a 4.2 or so pound bow so it is basically a light weight bow so that when I sights and stabs to my bow I can still be in the 9.5 pound range. I borrowed my buddies matthews apex 8 and it is a good pound heavier and longer ata made it feel like a tank. I used lighter weight with that bow when I shot it than I do with my specialist.


----------

