# asa arrow restrictions for 2013



## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

Heard there will be new arrow restrictions for 2013. Hope they will let us know soon. Anyone know anything about this?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Heard a couple rumors, but probably more just someone complaining than anything. Both were arrow diameters. One was the thin Nanos, some driving so deep they were bulging and/or penetrating the off side of the targets. The other was hunter classes to use common hunting diameter arrows, no fat shafts.

Again, just rumors. And then this last Sunday at our regular club 3D someone noted the same Nano thing and maybe new arrow restrictions.


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

I can see doing away with 27s ,if they do away with 14s. I wish they would do away with nick busters, 
they rough on 3d targets.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

ill catch heat for this but i would like to see something like a 23 size limit... a couple of full bores and x-cutters in a 12 or 14 and the next shooter has a slim chance of getting his points... hunter class should go to a standard size carbon and screw in points, all of this is just my .02 cents....


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## nccrutch (Feb 26, 2003)

tntone said:


> ill catch heat for this but i would like to see something like a 23 size limit... a couple of full bores and x-cutters in a 12 or 14 and the next shooter has a slim chance of getting his points... hunter class should go to a standard size carbon and screw in points, all of this is just my .02 cents....


sounds good to me!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

I feel the need for it with six shooters on a stake.
DB


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I shot my carbontech cheetas this weekend and they are skinny and I snuck them into the 12 ring next to some fat arrows this weekend, also with 6 per group we were allowed to shoot either 12 which was nice because when one filled up you moved to the other one. Funny thing was how many in my group shot at the low 12 even though it was full and the top one was wide open just because of habit.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

i prefer the low 12, when i miss i miss high most of the time... i also shot a standard size carbon, easton flatline... we had 6 in our group also.


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

I don't like restrictions on arrow diameter makes me feel like Obama has his nose in it. I do think hunter class should have screw in points and be a hunting setup. I am ok with making the max diameter 27 and no bigger but think you should be able to shoot the arrow of your choice as long as you stay under the 280 fps rule.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't see a max diameter restriction going into place because of money. Easton, GT and CX are all pretty big money sponsors and a restriction that cut out some of their best selling target arrows wouldn't make them very happy. I could see them allowing a restriction on the micro diameter arrows because they're selling the largest majority to hunters and if the hunters couldn't use them anymore for 3D, they'd still use them for hunting but end up buying some fat arrows for 3D too (double sales!!). Same as the real reason that they have low ball speed limit and push the open classes so hard, to push people into buying target setups in addition to their hunting rigs.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Supermag1 said:


> I don't see a max diameter restriction going into place because of money. Easton, GT and CX are all pretty big money sponsors and a restriction that cut out some of their best selling target arrows wouldn't make them very happy. I could see them allowing a restriction on the micro diameter arrows because they're selling the largest majority to hunters and if the hunters couldn't use them anymore for 3D, they'd still use them for hunting but end up buying some fat arrows for 3D too (double sales!!). Same as the real reason that they have low ball speed limit and push the open classes so hard, to push people into buying target setups in addition to their hunting rigs.


That is not the reason. It was and is too keep the field closer in regards to equipment. That is the reason they have a lower speed limit in some youth and womens classes.


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## targetmaster31 (Sep 3, 2005)

in reference to Kstigal, each and every one has a opportunity to buy the speed bow or the speed arrows if they chose not to then they should not punish the man or women who decided to buy the speed stuff. all speed rules and arrow diameter rules are to help those who dont want to go out and buy the high dollar equipment for what ever the reason should just make a special class for them then they all will b on a level playing ground.......


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

targetmaster31 said:


> in reference to Kstigal, each and every one has a opportunity to buy the speed bow or the speed arrows if they chose not to then they should not punish the man or women who decided to buy the speed stuff. all speed rules and arrow diameter rules are to help those who dont want to go out and buy the high dollar equipment for what ever the reason should just make a special class for them then they all will b on a level playing ground.......


You have no clue to what your talking about..... ''high dollar equipment'''....... I hate to bust your bubble...but the '''high dollar equipment''' in archery is not speed bows or arrows. .....


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

targetmaster31 said:


> in reference to Kstigal, each and every one has a opportunity to buy the speed bow or the speed arrows if they chose not to then they should not punish the man or women who decided to buy the speed stuff. all speed rules and arrow diameter rules are to help those who dont want to go out and buy the high dollar equipment for what ever the reason should just make a special class for them then they all will b on a level playing ground.......



Actually if a you took the same speed bow and same equipment as Tim Gillingham, changed the drawlength to a 27'' drawlength, the 2 speeds are not going to be anywhere close to each other!!!!!! So what you're saying doesnt make a whole lot of sense, sorry!!! Not that I'm agree with the speed rules either, I'm just saying


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## NCstick (Aug 14, 2011)

I just started shooting 3D this year but, would like to see more restrictions in the 30yd hunter class. Screw in points only, no fat arrows and of course 280fps rule that is already in place. 

I would also like to see a 40yd hunter class. We have an Elite and a few others have an outlaw where there is no speed limit. I would like to see one with the speed limit at 40yd.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

equipment rules (including speed limits) are working pretty good now...don't mess with success.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I will be more pleased when the 14 ring is no longer scored ! The scores are becoming ridiculous! Leave the arrows size alone. I wish they scored the targets as X-10-9-0. So on a 40 target course the best score you could shoot would be 400 40X.. There would be no bonus points or make up points so true scores would show.Then we could truly see who is the best shot and we could see if anyone could shoot a perfect score. A person who shoot 390 and 30x would beat a person who shoots 389 and 35X!


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## wheresthebear (Sep 15, 2009)

carlosii said:


> equipment rules (including speed limits) are working pretty good now...don't mess with success.


I agree with the equipment rules, leave them alone. As for the 14's, I feel that if 1 class can not shoot them no class should shoot them or the other way around.


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## bowtexan (Oct 26, 2010)

I don't understand why people want to restrict glue in points. What difference does that make?


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## bowtexan (Oct 26, 2010)

I also used too not want a speed limit, but I now realize why they have it. I am a 30 in. draw and have had my bow shooting 330 fps second before. Now take a guy with a short draw length, say 27 in draw. He gives up almost 30 fps just because of his dew length. How is that fair to him? With 280, pretty much everyone can get that speed one way or another and everyone is on a level playing field. And trust me at 330 fps I had a HUGE advantage on a 3d course.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

bowtexan said:


> I don't understand why people want to restrict glue in points. What difference does that make?


its the HUNTER CLASS, do you shoot glue in points when you hunt, NO.... that class is for the ones who want to bring their hunting bow to the target coarse and compete and have fun, now its almost like the open class without a movable scope and long stabs...


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## bowtexan (Oct 26, 2010)

No but I do use a one pin movable sight. Black gold ascent. So can I know shoot in the hunter class with it? It is a pure hunting sight. You still have not explained what advantage a glue in point has. 100grns is 100 grns.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Don't think the 27 size arrows are going to be eliminated because all the major arrow manufactors produce them. They all have a lot of $ invested in their R&D, sponsorship etc. 
Only real change I foresee taking place any time soon is eliminating the 14 ring.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

cannot have a moveable sight, your 100 grain glue in point is not the same as a 100 grain point with a screw in insert, it adds depending on the arrow 20 or so grains to the arrow. it should be kept "hunting"... this is just my 2 cents worth, if it were up to me only i would change alot in the asa and ibo, i like both of them but they could change some things....


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

i think the 14 should stay in play, make it smaller and move it closer to the edge on the 8 ring, you miss it you loose points...


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## LCA (Apr 20, 2009)

tntone said:


> its the HUNTER CLASS, do you shoot glue in points when you hunt, NO.... that class is for the ones who want to bring their hunting bow to the target coarse and compete and have fun, now its almost like the open class without a movable scope and long stabs...


I dont shoot field points when i hunt either though..... I think the ASA has the best 3D game going, why mess with what aint broke???


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## bowtexan (Oct 26, 2010)

tntone said:


> cannot have a moveable sight, your 100 grain glue in point is not the same as a 100 grain point with a screw in insert, it adds depending on the arrow 20 or so grains to the arrow. it should be kept "hunting"... this is just my 2 cents worth, if it were up to me only i would change alot in the asa and ibo, i like both of them but they could change some things....


People use allkinds of different screw in points with many different weights. Same with glue in points. As a matter of fact I shoot 125s on my target arrows. You said the hunter class was for people to bring their hunting setup and shoot and have fun. My hunting setup is an invasion with a black gold ascent sight. I can't shoot it. I had to buy a sight so I could shoot asa and have fun. Im not complaining. I still don't see how and you have failed to explain how glue in point are an advantage over screw in points. Their is absolutely no reason to outlaw them in the hunter class.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

tntone said:


> i think the 14 should stay in play, make it smaller and move it closer to the edge on the 8 ring, you miss it you loose points...


Make it smaller? Ok I guess. I don't really care. Everyone shoots the same targets. It won't change who wins.

Closer to the edge of the 8? You lost me there. Many targets already connect to the 5/8 lines. All are with .25" @ the top or the back. 

The 14 game is already all about "miss it, lose points" so what are you wanting?

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

no one said it was an advantage or not to use glue in points and you can use your moveable sight, you just cant move it, you can shoot it set and when you start your round it cant be moved anymore. do you not understand that the class your in is teh hunter class and why its called the hunter class, years ago it had rules for screw in points only and no side bar with a max front length of 12". i would like to see it go back to that, will it, no... probably wont be long till the recurves and longbows in trad. class will have stabs and sights....


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## mod10g (Dec 18, 2006)

I can see min arrow diameter, the small diameter arrows bury deeper in the targets but I don't know if it damages a target any more than a 27. I also don't think you should be restricted to a screw in point in any class 20g insert and a 80g screw in point is no different than a 100g glue in. I have mixed feelings on the 14 ring, if they decide to take them out then maybe put the 12 ring on the outside of the 10 ring, To make it a little more risky. I think there needs to be some risk/reward involved,if not it gets almost like an indoor event one bad shot or miss judge on yardage and you out of the running.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> Make it smaller? Ok I guess. I don't really care. Everyone shoots the same targets. It won't change who wins.
> 
> Closer to the edge of the 8? You lost me there. Many targets already connect to the 5/8 lines. All are with .25" @ the top or the back.
> 
> ...


im not wanting anything, people are complaining about the 14 ring. to me its to big on most targets, on most targets if you miss to the outside "away from the 10 and 12 rings" you can still catch the 8 ring. mold the 14 ring with the edge of the 8, dead on it, if you miss on the outside or towards the top you get a five and if you miss on the inside you get a 8, just a little more risk in going for it. your not gonna make everyone happy no matter what, so many are complaining about the scores being so high and that something needs to be done, i really could care less if anything is changed, i shoot about 1 or 2 a year and thats it....i put in my openion just like eveyone else...


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> That is not the reason. It was and is too keep the field closer in regards to equipment. That is the reason they have a lower speed limit in some youth and womens classes.


Don't kid yourself, it's always about the money. The keeping the field closer arguement is just one more way to sell people on it. Run the numbers through OT2 sometime and see just how little difference speed makes in yardage judging. Javi was the one that actually brought the speed myth to light a couple years ago over on 3dshoots and he's probably forgot more about bows and shooting that most of us know. Also remember when Levi was on that big multi format win streak (ASA, NFAA marked, IBO, ASA, etc) last year? He could've used any speed bow he wanted at the IBOs but he used his go to Apex and it didn't hurt him a bit giving up all that potential speed for an accurate bow because he understood that the speed wouldn't make up for the potential accuracy loss.


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## 450r20 (Nov 19, 2008)

cenochs said:


> I will be more pleased when the 14 ring is no longer scored ! The scores are becoming ridiculous! Leave the arrows size alone. I wish they scored the targets as X-10-9-0. So on a 40 target course the best score you could shoot would be 400 40X.. There would be no bonus points or make up points so true scores would show.Then we could truly see who is the best shot and we could see if anyone could shoot a perfect score. A person who shoot 390 and 30x would beat a person who shoots 389 and 35X!


With the 14 ring in play the true scores do show! And we do see who the real shooters are! And if someone shoots a 390 with 30x it beats 389 with35 x all day long. The 14 is what makes the Asa different from the Ibo. I don't know why if people don't like the 14 don't shoot at it! Just my 2 cents


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

Supermag1 said:


> Don't kid yourself, it's always about the money. The keeping the field closer arguement is just one more way to sell people on it. Run the numbers through OT2 sometime and see just how little difference speed makes in yardage judging. Javi was the one that actually brought the speed myth to light a couple years ago over on 3dshoots and he's probably forgot more about bows and shooting that most of us know. Also remember when Levi was on that big multi format win streak (ASA, NFAA marked, IBO, ASA, etc) last year? He could've used any speed bow he wanted at the IBOs but he used his go to Apex and it didn't hurt him a bit giving up all that potential speed for an accurate bow because he understood that the speed wouldn't make up for the potential accuracy loss.


but levi can judge yardage to with in a half yard, he is talking about the average person. if i shot a bow at 40 yards and miss judged it by 3-4 yards and shooting 335 fps i would still hit the 8 ring or five, at 280fps i will probably shoot under it and get a zero....


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

450r20 said:


> With the 14 ring in play the true scores do show! And we do see who the real shooters are! And if someone shoots a 390 with 30x it beats 389 with35 x all day long. The 14 is what makes the Asa different from the Ibo. I don't know why if people don't like the 14 don't shoot at it! Just my 2 cents


True scores do show with the 14 ring but consistency does not. If you use the scoring I propose and count the x as 12's then the 390 becomes 450 and the 389 becomes a 459 and you can see the most consistent shooter will lose . You can shoot 8's all day and get lucky and punch your way into some 14's and beat a archer who consistently shoots 10's.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

NCstick said:


> I just started shooting 3D this year but, would like to see more restrictions in the 30yd hunter class. Screw in points only, no fat arrows and of course 280fps rule that is already in place.
> 
> I would also like to see a 40yd hunter class. We have an Elite and a few others have an outlaw where there is no speed limit. I would like to see one with the speed limit at 40yd.


the bow novice class has the 30 yard max. the hunter class does have a 40 yard max. just a little info fyi.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

an asa official, who shall remain nameless, said that having the 14 in play resulted in high shots that weakened the back of the targets used on the sims and practice ranges. people paying out good money for a range are getting some targets with quite a bit of damage. that was just another reason for proposing the elimination of the 14.

if that was the only problem they could move the 14 i guess.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

carlosii said:


> an asa official, who shall remain nameless, said that having the 14 in play resulted in high shots that weakened the back of the targets used on the sims and practice ranges. people paying out good money for a range are getting some targets with quite a bit of damage. that was just another reason for proposing the elimination of the 14.
> 
> if that was the only problem they could move the 14 i guess.


put the 14 in the center of the back section by its self, if you miss it at all you get a 5...:thumbs_up


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

tntone said:


> but levi can judge yardage to with in a half yard, he is talking about the average person. if i shot a bow at 40 yards and miss judged it by 3-4 yards and shooting 335 fps i would still hit the 8 ring or five, at 280fps i will probably shoot under it and get a zero....


Instead of guessing, run the numbers and see just how little difference it makes then be honest about your group size with each different setup and draw some circles and see what you'd get. It will surprise you.

BTW, if someone were to say the reason for the speed limit is target life, I'd believe that.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

Supermag1 said:


> Instead of guessing, run the numbers and see just how little difference it makes then be honest about your group size with each different setup and draw some circles and see what you'd get. It will surprise you.
> 
> BTW, if someone were to say the reason for the speed limit is target life, I'd believe that.


ive done it, it makes a huge difference...


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

Supermag1 said:


> Instead of guessing, run the numbers and see just how little difference it makes then be honest about your group size with each different setup and draw some circles and see what you'd get. It will surprise you.
> 
> BTW, if someone were to say the reason for the speed limit is target life, I'd believe that.


its to keep the 27" draw archers more equal to 32" draw archers....


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

tntone said:


> but levi can judge yardage to with in a half yard, he is talking about the average person. if i shot a bow at 40 yards and miss judged it by 3-4 yards and shooting 335 fps i would still hit the 8 ring or five, at 280fps i will probably shoot under it and get a zero....


OK lets put this to rest....Im running the numbers through OT2

Judged for 40 yds........ reality 44 yds
280 FPS = 4.89 inches of drop
335 FPS = 3.29 inches of drop

A grand total of 1.6 inches of difference - YOU WILL NOT MISS THE TARGET


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

if you practice on one of the Delta asa indoor targets you can see just how often you can hit those 14's practicing at 35 or 40 yards.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Supermag1 said:


> Don't kid yourself, it's always about the money. The keeping the field closer arguement is just one more way to sell people on it. Run the numbers through OT2 sometime and see just how little difference speed makes in yardage judging. Javi was the one that actually brought the speed myth to light a couple years ago over on 3dshoots and he's probably forgot more about bows and shooting that most of us know. Also remember when Levi was on that big multi format win streak (ASA, NFAA marked, IBO, ASA, etc) last year? He could've used any speed bow he wanted at the IBOs but he used his go to Apex and it didn't hurt him a bit giving up all that potential speed for an accurate bow because he understood that the speed wouldn't make up for the potential accuracy loss.





tntone said:


> but levi can judge yardage to with in a half yard, he is talking about the average person. if i shot a bow at 40 yards and miss judged it by 3-4 yards and shooting 335 fps i would still hit the 8 ring or five, at 280fps i will probably shoot under it and get a zero....


SuperMag1, I bet if the ASA didn't have a speed limit a lot of the top ASA guys would be shooting a LOT faster than 280 fps. A bow shooting 280 fps is not inherently more accurate than a bow shooting 315 fps. Those guys that are at the top of the game in ASA and use the same setup for IBO feel using a different set up for IBO would hurt them more where it matters, which is ASA tournaments, than it would help them in IBO tournaments. When it comes to the Levi Morgans and Darrin Christenberry types that are excellent yardage guessers the difference between 285 fps and 310 fps is not a top priority. 

For the average to good 3D'er that is a decent to above average shot the difference in 280 fps and 310 fps can make a measurable difference. The longer the distance the more it can matter. Of course it is dependent where the additional speed comes from. But even then it depends on the archer. For example: I am a well above average shot but even when I practice yardage estimating a LOT I'm only average at best. A 24 fps bump in speed does push my score up measurably. I have a 26" draw so I haven't been able to comfortably and accurately get over 298 - 300 fps. If you are a bigger stronger guy then there may not be any measurable loss in accuracy by going from 280 fps to 310+ fps.

In a nut shell having a speed limit really doesn't hurt anything.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Garceau said:


> OK lets put this to rest....Im running the numbers through OT2
> 
> Judged for 40 yds........ reality 44 yds
> 280 FPS = 4.89 inches of drop
> ...


1.6 inches is HUGE when you judge yardage as poorly as I do but have a decent shot.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> 1.6 inches is HUGE when you judge yardage as poorly as I do but have a decent shot.


amen.. thank you brother... and then add in a flench or a low hold and you have a BLANK...


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> 1.6 inches is HUGE when you judge yardage as poorly as I do but have a decent shot.


How big are your groups under pressure at 44 yards? If they're 3.2" or larger then you'd never know the difference. They've got you guys believing it's for an equal field and therefore, you believe that speed makes up for poor yardage judging. More than likely, the mental aspect of believing that you're all equal is more beneficial to you than equal speeds are benefitting you.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

:BangHead:... supermag1 you will argue with a stop sign, you dont have the logic that speed helps with miss judging yards... why do you think people try to get the max speed out of there bow, they push the 288 max in the asa, promise you that its not for the accuracy. if it wasnt no issue then people would be shooting 260, 270 and so on for theit increase in ACCURACY.... please....


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tntone said:


> :BangHead:... supermag1 you will argue with a stop sign, you dont have the logic that speed helps with miss judging yards... why do you think people try to get the max speed out of there bow, they push the 288 max in the asa, promise you that its not for the accuracy. if it wasnt no issue then people would be shooting 260, 270 and so on for theit increase in ACCURACY.... please....


Speed might have a little help.....but.....you can miss shooting just as much shooting 250fps...just as shooting 300 fps if your not executing the shot....


Tnt....I know someone that shoots in your K45 class...and only shooting around 255fps....and hes been on the podium 3 of the 4 asa events....he didn't go to one of them.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> Speed might have a little help.....but.....you can miss shooting just as much shooting 250fps...just as shooting 300 fps if your not executing the shot....
> 
> 
> Tnt....I know someone that shoots in your K45 class...and only shooting around 255fps....and hes been on the podium 3 of the 4 asa events....he didn't go to one of them.


i agree with you, he is trying to say that speed doesnt make a difference and there shouldnt be a restriction on it. in k45, i dont care if i shoot 250 or 260, now in the other classes it would matter.. i think i know who your tallking about, he was chronoed at augusta and when he returned to the group he said that his bow shot in the high 250's if thats the same person. i didnt kknow if he was kidding or not...


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

tntone said:


> :BangHead:... supermag1 you will argue with a stop sign, you dont have the logic that speed helps with miss judging yards... why do you think people try to get the max speed out of there bow, they push the 288 max in the asa, promise you that its not for the accuracy. if it wasnt no issue then people would be shooting 260, 270 and so on for theit increase in ACCURACY.... please....


Actually, I've told you where to get the trajectories (Garceau even went and figured them for you) and explained my side of it and all you do is give me is "I think" and "I just know" answers with no proof. You just can't see that you've bought into the hype that the archery world has been selling. If speed mattered as much as you think, nobody with less than a 30" draw length would ever win an IBO shoot and the only bows you'd see would be Omens, MR5s, and Vector Turbos (at least from the Big 3).

We'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

so you are saying that if you have two bows that you shoot equally well on a range to where you judge the yards that you will score the same with both bows if one shoots 335 and the other shoots 280. if you can score the same then you can REALLY judge your yards.... i dont get into the hype of archery, i still shoot regular arrows, i dont get into the speed thing, i dont have to have new, bigger, better.... i shoot a 08 pro elite for indoors and would shoot against anyone with that bow... i hunt with a bow that shoots around 300 fps, really dont care for the speed hype, i want to see the most equal field for everyone. a short draw archer is more equal to a longer draw archer when you have a speed limit. friend of mine thinks that he has to have 27 size arrows to shoot indoors now and that his 26's are no good anymore, i tell him to practice and get better instead of buying his better score, you cant tell a short draw archer to grow up and get bigger....


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Tntone I agree with you. I have run the numbers through the programs and 2" less drop is alot. Also fast bows and small arrows absolutely kill the XT targets. They will stick out the back of a new target fairly consistently. 

I shot with a guy Saturday at the GA ASA this past weekend. He was shooting a small diameter arrow (one of the A/C Easton lines) and his bow was shooting 297 as per what he told us. The small arrow stuck out the back of every target and didn't drop no where near what ours did. He was from Easton and was there shooting a practice round and taking pictures on the range.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

my old weak shoulders and muscles can't handle the draw weight necessary to hit the 280 mark. so i'm stuck with somewhere around 260. that sucks when you're like me and can't judge distance. just have to learn to live with it.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tntone said:


> i agree with you, he is trying to say that speed doesnt make a difference and there shouldnt be a restriction on it. in k45, i dont care if i shoot 250 or 260, now in the other classes it would matter.. i think i know who your tallking about, he was chronoed at augusta and when he returned to the group he said that his bow shot in the high 250's if thats the same person. i didnt kknow if he was kidding or not...


his intials are G.K. his not kidding


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

outbackarcher said:


> Tntone I agree with you. I have run the numbers through the programs and 2" less drop is alot. Also fast bows and small arrows absolutely kill the XT targets. They will stick out the back of a new target fairly consistently.
> 
> I shot with a guy Saturday at the GA ASA this past weekend. He was shooting a small diameter arrow (one of the A/C Easton lines) and his bow was shooting 297 as per what he told us. The small arrow stuck out the back of every target and didn't drop no where near what ours did. He was from Easton and was there shooting a practice round and taking pictures on the range.


Like I said, I can see the arguement for slower bows increasing target life. The ASA has a ton of people to run through a shoot in a weekend and they'll lose alot of their profits having to replace inserts all the time. The question then changes to, if they really cared about target life, why would they allow the large diameter arrows still? That is simple and the reason you won't see a change in the max diameter and that is because of sponsors like Easton, GT and CX don't want to lose sales. Like I said, the small diameter arrows are going to sell whether they're legal for ASA or not so it won't matter if they make those illegal, it will in fact just increase arrow sales as people switch from them to Fat Boys, X-Cutters or Line Jammers.

I bet the people at ASA and the archery companies can read a thread like this and just sit back and smile knowing that their marketing has so many people so convinced in it that they refuse to believe in the laws of physics.


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## bowtexan (Oct 26, 2010)

Fat arrows at 280 barely go into the target. On my bag they sometimes lean down after the shot. My VAP arrows on the otherhand bury up to the vanes regularly.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

How about a standard 23/64 any manufacture you want and everybody shoots that diameter only.


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

I like the ASA scoring system and the option of going for the 14. I hope they keep it the same. I like the speed limit too.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Personnally I don't like the 14 ring (I can't hit them). I also don't like the upper 12 either, the shooters rotate and if you don't have room then that is part of the game. But the reason for the proposed elimination of the 14 ring and the upper and lower 12's is to help save the targets. The one 12 can't take a weekend of shooting and the 14 shoots up the back of the target. Any changes made will have a financial impact somewhere.


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

Why are we trying to save targets and not shoot 14s? I pay to shoot the targets just like everyone else does. The people buying ranges after an ASA Pro/Am are getting a very good deal. The targets I saw only had a few shots in the 14s anyway. It doesn't seem like the real reason some people want to stop the use of the 14s, is to save targets. jimb you are correct, sometimes there are other arrows in the 14 or 12 and you have to make a decision to take the risk or not. It is just course management. I say shoot within your ability and push yourself when you feel you can pull the shot off. They (ASA) have been shooting 14s right along and now all of a sudden some people don't want them in play. Seems like some people just want to tell other people what they can't do.


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## LCA (Apr 20, 2009)

So let me understand this.... people want to eliminate the 14 to save targets? removing a spot to shoot at is going to make a target less cluttered and last longer? if the 14 ring is torn up have it repaired, problem solved.... with as many people who are entering these shoots i would think the cost of the target is being recovered.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

There is a poll on ASA page that says: pro's don't score 14's and shooting at them damages targets outside of the replacable core.
The votes to not score them are, 1682 and the votes to keep them are 642. Someone from the ASA put the poll on their home page.

Its all financial, if they have to replace cores over the weekend that is money out of their pockets, the better condition the targets are at the end of the weekend the easier they are to sell.

My boss gets on to me for dropping wire nuts and not picking them up.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

lknchoppers said:


> I like the ASA scoring system and the option of going for the 14. I hope they keep it the same. I like the speed limit too.


i agree with this...as far as target life and the sale of them after the shoots, people know what there getting, if i bought a range i would assume thati was getting several targets that will have the 12 shot up and a few close targets with the 14 shot up....


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Kstigall said:


> 1.6 inches is HUGE when you judge yardage as poorly as I do but have a decent shot.


Shoot known yardage class.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Hallsway (Jan 16, 2009)

Wow. I get such a kick out of read threads like this.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

not too sure about restricting skinny arrows. some of the shooters in the women's classes have a tough time getting to 280 due to short draw and/or low draw weight. let's let sleeping dogs lie and not make any changes for the time being, ok?


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Hallsway said:


> Wow. I get such a kick out of read threads like this.


TOTALLY AGREE next they will complain about the shooters height or wether or not some shoots right or left handed


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## Shadowrider13 (Feb 24, 2012)

Just leave the rules alone for goodness sake. How about worrying about the more serious issues in ASA like cheaters...Just my .25 worth as well


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## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

if you shoot your way to the pro class and have gotten there by playing the 14 game what you gonna do? if it's not in the pro game take it out completely!

if they leave it you should have to call it, seen to many flyers end up there,thats not a well executed shot its way off on most targets no reward should be given


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

lknchoppers said:


> Why are we trying to save targets and not shoot 14s? I pay to shoot the targets just like everyone else does. The people buying ranges after an ASA Pro/Am are getting a very good deal. The targets I saw only had a few shots in the 14s anyway.


there was a bedded deer on the 40 yd. simms that was set fairly close. the 14 was shot to pieces and on that target a new insert will not cure that problem since the 14 is not located in the insert. i saw some targets with similar damage on ranges e and f. just sayin'.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

FishAlaska said:


> Shoot known yardage class.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


This is an old thread.............. That is what I shot on London, KY and this past weekend at the Classic.



carlosii said:


> there was a bedded deer on the 40 yd. simms that was set fairly close. the 14 was shot to pieces and on that target a new insert will not cure that problem since the 14 is not located in the insert. i saw some targets with similar damage on ranges e and f. just sayin'.


Imagine all those arrows that shot out the 14 being poured into the 12. The ASA would have had to replace the insert at least a couple of times or we'll be shooting at blown out ten rings. 

Next year I hope the ASA has a trailer full of extra cores on some of the ranges. Once the 12 ring is obliterated anything in the hole you almost have to score a 12.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> This is an old thread.............. That is what I shot on London, KY and this past weekend at the Classic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They wont need to worry if the ranges were like ABCD ranges.... the 12s wont be beat up that bad.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> They wont need to worry if the ranges were like ABCD ranges.... the 12s wont be beat up that bad.


"D" range wasn't all that tough. We shot it Sunday. But then again I was shooting "Known"!!!!


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## carleysdad (Jun 22, 2004)

I may be off base here but i dont understand why there has to be a speed limit on k45 or k50. If the yardage is known what differance does it make? I am a long draw guy and unless i shoot a very heavy arrow or drop my poundage alot. i cant get close to 280.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

carleysdad said:


> I may be off base here but i dont understand why there has to be a speed limit on k45 or k50. If the yardage is known what differance does it make? I am a long draw guy and unless i shoot a very heavy arrow or drop my poundage alot. i cant get close to 280.


Well...actually the ones shooting k45/k50 arent even shooting close to 280.... I know of one that shooting around 230ish.....So, your theory doesn't make sense or able to hold water in a speeding cause.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> "D" range wasn't all that tough. We shot it Sunday. But then again I was shooting "Known"!!!!


That might be...but then I was on C on Saturday....we only had 3 from 29-32 yards....everything else was about 37-45


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## carleysdad (Jun 22, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Well...actually the ones shooting k45/k50 arent even shooting close to 280.... I know of one that shooting around 230ish.....So, your theory doesn't make sense or able to hold water in a speeding cause.


You missed the point im trying to make. If the yardage is known what difference does it make if im shooting 320fps and you're shooting 280. We both know the yardage.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

carleysdad said:


> You missed the point im trying to make. If the yardage is known what difference does it make if im shooting 320fps and you're shooting 280. We both know the yardage.


No, actually I understood your point . Just stating that 280 is the level field for all...... Also, just so you know....in our meetings we had....if your state was wanting and gave a good reason to have no speed class.....im sure they can have one ..(state level) only though.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

carleysdad said:


> You missed the point im trying to make. If the yardage is known what difference does it make if im shooting 320fps and you're shooting 280. We both know the yardage.


Being able to shoot an extremely heavy arrow at 280 fps is very advantageous. 

Just do it.:wink:


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## carleysdad (Jun 22, 2004)

With the way all bow manufactures are trying to up speeds these days it seems to me that the speed limit would not be in their best interest. As far as people with a lets say a 27 in draw and only pull 60lbs. You can still get the speed out of that set up with the proper arrow and tuning. It seems to me that the speed limit is a limiting factor that keeps alot of people away.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

bhtr3d said:


> No, actually I understood your point . Just stating that 280 is the level field for all...... Also, just so you know....in our meetings we had...if your state was wanting and gave a good reason to have no speed class.....im sure they can have one ..(state level) only though.


Tim, i sure hope that's not the camel's nose in the tent. i'm willing to rely on Mike to make the decisions. seems like when there's a committee that's when things start getting confusing. if ASA is a privately owned enterprise, the CEO ought to be the one calling all the shots. just mho.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Being able to shoot an extremely heavy arrow at 280 fps is very advantageous.
> 
> Just do it.:wink:


A 650 grain arrow traveling at 285 fps with a good nock buster type tip would not deflect very easily! Just smash the other guys arrow out of the way. Exactly how would we score an smashed and fragmented arrow?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

carleysdad said:


> With the way all bow manufactures are trying to up speeds these days it seems to me that the speed limit would not be in their best interest. As far as people with a lets say a 27 in draw and only pull 60lbs. You can still get the speed out of that set up with the proper arrow and tuning. It seems to me that the speed limit is a limiting factor that keeps alot of people away.


I doubt seriously if it keeps a "lot of people" away. Folks that WANT to play aren't going to let 10 or 15 fps be the primary or even secondary reason they do not participate.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

carlosii said:


> Tim, i sure hope that's not the camel's nose in the tent. i'm willing to rely on Mike to make the decisions. seems like when there's a committee that's when things start getting confusing. if ASA is a privately owned enterprise, the CEO ought to be the one calling all the shots. just mho.


Carl.....It's perfectly accepable. They do it in Michigan..and have for a couple years. They have what is known as the outlaw class. It is only at a state level and that is it. I have also heard that generally the open 'a' shooters also outsocre them as well. I have heard this before as well...in past meetings.


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## carleysdad (Jun 22, 2004)

I am not trying to start any arguments. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind some of the rules. I personally dont think speed should matter in known yardage situations. I can see how it levels the playing field in unknown classes. How long has 280 been the limit? By the why i am new to this sanctioned style of shooting, and dont understand all the rules. I'm trying to get it figured out so i know if i want to become part of it. I've particapated in club shoots for years and am thinking about making the step up.


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

I would think that George from Targetmaster repair could fix those 14 rings in a jiffy and it wouldn't cost very much at all. He could probally rig up a a 2" cut circle and go down in 6" and pull out the shot out plug. One small repair kit would fix every 14 ring on the range. Knowing George, he would rig up a way to fix them right out on the range right after we shoot. Seems like something very easy and at a low cost. My 2 cents.fun going for them 14's.


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## bill_collector (Jul 5, 2009)

If people are complaining more about the scores being so high, maybe they should practice a little more, Instead of trying to even the playing field.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bill_collector said:


> If people are complaining more about the scores being so high, maybe they should practice a little more, Instead of trying to even the playing field.


It won't change the results. The scores will appear a bit lower but the better shots will still win by a bunch. I believe there have been times when the "best" would get to competing with each other so hotly they would leave the door cracked for us yahoos to slip in and pick up a check. I have more "competition philosophy" but I think I'll keep some to myself.


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## bill_collector (Jul 5, 2009)

I don't care what the rules are, I will continue to follow them and have fun doing it. If I could just get over these dang nerves.


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