# Explain the reasoning Unmarked yardage pros out score marked pros



## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

1. Money is greater, therefore better shooters shoot unmarked?
2. Distances are longer?

The shooters you mentioned are not going to shoot marked just for fun and less money.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

FS560 said:


> 1. Money is greater, therefore better shooters shoot unmarked?
> 2. Distances are longer?
> 
> The shooters you mentioned are not going to shoot marked just for fun and less money.


They shoot exact same course.....and it is amazing to me.



Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

The biggest reason is that they are exceptional archers with exceptional 3d skills (target knowledge, scoring strategy, judging, experience). 

I know for a fact that the difference between several top pro's and a rangefinder is that a good rangefinder won't blow a target by 2-3 yards once in every 100 or so attempts. One of the top pro's was tracked last year for quite a while against a range finder. His average was within .625 yards of a tape. I've got news for you. That's better than the top-notch rangefinder that I use to shoot with. 

But, don't let me over-emphasize the precision with which they judge. They are excellent shooters (pure accuracy) with excellent target knowledge and excellent strategy (they know how to minimize damage and maximize their potential score). I don't believe most would score much or any higher on known distance courses. The SIMS scores are a good "lower stress" sample of what happens in known yardage. 

In defense of the known distance shooter, you will not find a single K50 shooter who is putting the time into the 3d game that the top Open Pro's are. There are no K50 regulars who get paid (primary income) to shoot their bows. Many of us are just good shooters who cannot or choose not to invest what it takes to be competitive at a high level judging.


----------



## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Some pro's "keyword Some" have come shot the K50 class and has done no better or worse on known distance. Im with TM much is target knowledge and the strategy by which they shoot to minimize mistakes. Many if not most would shoot about the same scores shooting known. But just knowing that just shows once again how good some of the pro's really are.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Just amazes me how well these guys can judge yardage.
> 
> London the unmarked yadage pros shot higher scores than marked yardage pros.
> 
> ...



I may be wrong but I believe the Pro's were finished or about finished when it began to sprinkle on Sunday. It did not rain while they were shooting Saturday.

I hate to offend the spotties but the guys you named can shoot as good as ANYONE in the country. Chance has done just a little bit better than "damn good" at Vegas over the years times (4 time Champ) and Levi tends to do quite well killing x's (2012 NFAA Champion). N. Brooks has killed his share of X's while being a two time NFAA National Champion. If they chose to play hard in another archery game they'd be right there at the very top.

Secondly, these guys are human range finders AND really know the targets. Knowing the targets is hugely important to score as high as they do. 

Thirdly, they are far from typical when it comes to competing. They have the rare ability to perform exceptionally well under pressure and do not make big mistakes like forgetting to re-set their sights........... They are simply freaks of nature. :becky:


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

FS560 said:


> 1. Money is greater, therefore better shooters shoot unmarked?
> 2. Distances are longer?
> 
> The shooters you mentioned are not going to shoot marked just for fun and less money.


K50 and Open Pro shoot the same ranges.


----------



## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I think it's amazing as well. Even more amazing is that even some of the Open Pros that do well on a regular basis, are not full time archers...they have other jobs for full time. I was very very shocked at that. I was under the impression that most all of them were doing it for a living. Cara Fernandez is a great example...she's been top of the game in ASA and IBO for the last several years. If I'm not mistaken, this KY shoot was the only shoot this year she's not made the shoot down in....and still finished 6th....but as dominate as she has been, she still has a full time job outside of archery. 

These guys are just on a whole different level of the game. Sure, some of us get in that zone every now and then where all the shots are right and we are nailing 12s like crazy. But the Open Pro guys are like that at every shoot. It's something else when they are shooting 20+ up on unknown yardage courses out to 50 yards on a regular basis....and I've yet to do it once with KNOWN yardage at just 30 yards.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I may be wrong but I believe the Pro's were finished or about finished when it began to sprinkle on Sunday. It did not rain while they were shooting Saturday.
> 
> I hate to offend the spotties but the guys you named can shoot as good as ANYONE in the country. Chance has done just a little bit better than "damn good" at Vegas over the years times (4 time Champ) and Levi tends to do quite well killing x's (2012 NFAA Champion). N. Brooks has killed his share of X's while being a two time NFAA National Champion. If they chose to play hard in another archery game they'd be right there at the very top.
> 
> ...



We know what Levi can do on a Redding course marked. 
DB


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

The Top pros are just dang good and this is what they spend most of their time doing and it shows! Like was stated above the K50 guys are just guys that shoot good that don't have time to put into judging and learning animals. They are just good plain and simple..


----------



## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> The biggest reason is that they are exceptional archers with exceptional 3d skills (target knowledge, scoring strategy, judging, experience).
> 
> I know for a fact that the difference between several top pro's and a rangefinder is that a good rangefinder won't blow a target by 2-3 yards once in every 100 or so attempts. One of the top pro's was tracked last year for quite a while against a range finder. His average was within .625 yards of a tape. I've got news for you. That's better than the top-notch rangefinder that I use to shoot with.
> 
> ...



X2 Tony. Just because K50 is listed as a pro class doesn't mean those guys are pros. They are people with real jobs like you and me and who do not get paid to shoot their bow for a living.

Levi is a pure beast no doubt about it. However that being said should we really be awestruck by his accomplishments? I mean this is what he does for a living every dam day 365 days a year. All the top pros have 3D ranges in their backyard and shoot them everyday. 

So I ask you DB, is it really a shocker that the top pros out shot some amateurs who paid $125.00 to shoot K50?

Your questions never cease to amaze me DB.

Tony nice shooting on day 2. 16 up was like a BOSS.


----------



## RJseniorpro (Jan 12, 2009)

3d archery has made a big change in the past 10 years. I have been in the senior pro division for 15 years and just 10 years ago if you shot 400 you would make every shoot down, now you may get 10th to 12th place. Today you have to aim at every 12 and accept a few 8's, your goal is to shoot twice the number 12's as 8's. We use to pick and choose our aiming, not now, you have to be aggressive from stake one. Being 65 I know the young guys have an advantage, but I don't look at it as a crutch, I just have to work harder and smarter. It's harder for us seniors to stay focused and not make mistakes. What a great sport, when mother nature kicks in, just change classes and keep flinging arrows. It does amaze me what the young guys can do with a Bow....I enjoy watching them shoot, but most of all enjoy their friendship...


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Explain the reasoning Unmarked yardage pros out score marked pros*

Well, Dave Cousins wasn't there  No, he doesn't shoot ASA all that much, but has put up pretty impressive Known Yardage scores.

And then just maybe the ASA should have classes broken down. Like us mortals in class 1B and immortals in class 1A of their respective regular class that is 

I have to agree, Known 45 and 50 aren't like the Pros. Most take up Known because it's known yardage. Most don't own full ranges. Most aren't the GRRRRRR aggressive.
Still, once some one finds the "tricks" then scores may climb. Like my Range Finder has +/- 1 yard. Range Finders don't repeat as in reflective recovery due to the target and light conditions. It might 28 for 28 yards in the open and maybe 30 or 26 for another target or light conditions. Heat can give unclear distance readings (if you see the LEDs trying to light up other than just the distance, you got problems. Granted, it does take some heat, but enclosed in cars, vans, back on enclosed truck beds can cause it. All point of impact errors should be high, not low, and then switching from lower 12 to upper 12 would cause problems. So mental notes of how much more or less need kept. Old Pro Hoyt shooter once asked me; "How many times you see some one shoot too high as compared to too low?" Well, yes, it seems low shots far out way the high shots.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Maybe the top Open Pros are better at shooting at something without a defined spot to aim.


----------



## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

I think it comes down to the amount of practice they put in PEROID....I know the Pro I know practices just as much on yardage as he does shooting the targets......I woud assume all the Pros practice yardage judging this much and have it down to the half yard most the time....


----------



## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

whisker biscuits...


----------



## GILL (Jan 10, 2008)

I shot with Darrin Christenberry years ago before the rest of the world knew him. He always impressed me with his memory and ability to recall details. So often I can't remember the target I just shot, Darrin always seemed to be able to remember the targets we had shot in order as well as the details of the actual yardage as well as what he had shot it for and what he scored. 

The top pros, and lots of amateurs too, have an amazing set of skills and always make fun to watch them they do what they do.

Watching the shoot offs at the 2012 indoor nationals made me remember how much I truly loved the sport of archery. 




Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## crow3k (Feb 15, 2011)

IRISH_11 said:


> Tony nice shooting on day 2. 16 up was like a BOSS.


on a known course is 16 up really as good as 16 up on an unknown?
heck known courses are just spot thooting IMO


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

crow3k said:


> on a known course is 16 up really as good as 16 up on an unknown?
> heck known courses are just spot thooting IMO


Maybe, Maybe not.

Yep, "just spot shooting". Jump in and take home the money!! Nothing to it....................


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> Tony nice shooting on day 2. 16 up was like a BOSS.


Thanks, I shot conservative but good Saturday too and just blew it all with one setting of the sight. Unfortunate and painful to blow a weekend like that. 




crow3k said:


> on a known course is 16 up really as good as 16 up on an unknown?
> heck known courses are just spot thooting IMO


I don't think it is. I don't think Irish11 was saying that it was. They are different games that we (K50) happen to play on the same course as the Open Pros. 

Is an equivalent score as good as doing it unknown, nope. I have lots of respect for those guys' talent and ability and as people/athletes.

Good shooting? Yes, good enough to be the high score off the range of K50 shooters with resumes much deeper than my own and good enough that only one Open Pro beat it. 

In short, put up or shut up.



Kstigall said:


> Maybe, Maybe not.
> 
> Yep, "just spot shooting". Jump in and take home the money!! Nothing to it....................


Yeah, I agree. There is a great track record of guys jumping in and making lots of $ because it's just spot shooting and it's not like the competition is respectable.


----------



## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Come get ya some!! We let all types play.



crow3k said:


> on a known course is 16 up really as good as 16 up on an unknown?
> heck known courses are just spot thooting IMO


----------



## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

That's where the pro range started.I shot on H range Sunday ,right next to the pro range .it did rain while they were still shooting .

We had 4 targets left when the rain started ,and they were still shooting .

There just that good .We had Nathan Brooks shoot the team shoot ,he shot the same target every time .Not enough pros go go around .
He shot a 47.5 yrd Mule deer ,most of the time he shot first and had nothing to hold on .He shot 7=12's and 3=10's.
it just amazes me how well most of the pros can shoot .


----------



## crow3k (Feb 15, 2011)

easy now i only shoot long bow i have never shot a compound i didn't mean to sound like i was being an *****.

my bad


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

crow3k said:


> easy now i only shoot long bow i have never shot a compound i didn't mean to sound like i was being an *****.
> 
> my bad


Hmm, AT must have your post history confused with someone else's then.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/search.php?searchid=23392376

:thumbs_do


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

i shot open B and what i found was that i tried going for more 12s picked 2 8s doing so. pulled it just a little low. i don't mind telling you just because its marked does not mean its a gimme.got me on a few.

it was my first time shooting ASA and momma and i loved it.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Paris was my first course of shooting known, I had one out of C and decided K45 is where I wanted to go, simply because like many others I dont have the time to learn targets. I work offshore on a 14/14 schedule so when Im home Im spending 99% of that time with my family. 

I didnt know what to expect in paris, Other than I was goin with my best game. I walked off the course happy with my score, Especially after seeing the caliber of shooters in that class. Known isnt a easy game like people like to think, TMorelli and KStingal are very well right, if you think its easy, go on into the known and get you some. 

Back to the original topic the pros just have what it takes to shoot those scores. I wish I could judge the yardage and do it cause id be shooting pro with them, But thats what sets them apart from us average joes or backyard pros.


----------



## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

This is my guess but, the top pro "unknown" distance Pros have been playing this game for a long long time, they grew up doing it. When you do something for that long, you tend to be good/great at it or, you don't stick around. You don't see many, if any, people with less than 5 years shooting experience stepping up to the peg and hitting 12s.


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

The difference some are trying to make is the unknown vs known yardage...but let me tell you, after shooting with a few of these Pros, yardage is not a big issue. Most or dang near all of them can judge within a yard of exact...and do it with confidence. I shot with a great guy in Metro last year that was debating with himself on 1/2 yards while I was arguing with myself over 2-3 yards. 

The difference was when he stepped to the stake, he was confident and made his shot....just like he had a slip of paper in his pocket with the yards written on it. When I step up, I'm still arguing in my head if I'm going to undershoot or overshoot. He hit where he was aiming, I hoped to hit where I was aiming......

Example, I was in a group with a kid named Michael Frygogle...or something like that. This kid was a machine! He clicked off yards like he was using a rangefinder and once he called his shot...he hit it. He looked at our Pro on a 40+ yard and said, "I can hit that 14, care if I shoot it?" The Pro said go for it, and he drilled it like it was 20 yards away. Impressive confidence and skill combined....

Honestly, that's why they are Pros and we only wish we were.


----------



## DanielMatthews (May 12, 2011)

I think that more times than not the known scores are higher than the unknown. I just think that when someone in the pros has a great weekend and shoots a much higher score it should reflect that the said pro had an outstanding weekend! But it gets looked at as if the known guys aren't supposed to be able to hold any pros jockstrap. I didn't see this post after Texas when the known winning score was 20 points higher than the pros. Like Tony said they do this for a living and we all have jobs in the known class. I like to consider it the blue collar working mans "pro" class.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

DanielMatthews said:


> I think that more times than not the known scores are higher than the unknown. I just think that when someone in the pros has a great weekend and shoots a much higher score it should reflect that the said pro had an outstanding weekend! But it gets looked at as if the known guys aren't supposed to be able to hold any pros jockstrap. I didn't see this post after Texas when the known winning score was 20 points higher than the pros. Like Tony said they do this for a living and we all have jobs in the known class. I like to consider it the blue collar working mans "pro" class.


Couldnt have been said better!


----------



## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I shot with Randy Patterson (Known shooter K 50 )At Sherwood state IBO 3D he shot 16=12's and just missed about 10 more on a 30 target course ,he was on fire.He never missed the 10 ring ,No 8's at all.His 12 misses were just a hair high or left and right .
Plus he would hold and hold forever than drill the 12 like nothing .Some know shooter are that good also.


----------



## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Contrary to what many believe, EYES are just as good as rangefinders for many shooters. It has been tested and proven more than once that a top pro can walk the range with a pencil and paper and judge each and every target within less than a yard across the board. It is not a talent, but a skill honed by hours of practice in all conditions. Although I never achieved that level of expertise, I still feel confident that I can maintain a 1 yard edge across most of the targets, but unfortunately, there always seem to be 3 or 4 that catch me up short.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rsw said:


> Contrary to what many believe, EYES are just as good as rangefinders for many shooters. It has been tested and proven more than once that a top pro can walk the range with a pencil and paper and judge each and every target within less than a yard across the board. It is not a talent, but a skill honed by hours of practice in all conditions. Although I never achieved that level of expertise, I still feel confident that I can maintain a 1 yard edge across most of the targets, but unfortunately, there always seem to be 3 or 4 that catch me up short.


I remember years ago whne they had aa ten target judging contest. Nothing but piece of paper and pencil.

Dixon and Ketcher seemed to always average within 1.5 yrds. I do believe the top ten ASA pros are just a level above judging and there shooting is right there as well. Would love to see a known distance course of 20 targets on Thrusday for all pros just like regular shoot. Kinda like simms but paired up. Garantee you would see some filled up 12 rings for sure.
DB


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

rsw said:


> Contrary to what many believe, EYES are just as good as rangefinders for many shooters. It has been tested and proven more than once that a top pro can walk the range with a pencil and paper and judge each and every target within less than a yard across the board.  It is not a talent, but a skill honed by hours of practice in all conditions. Although I never achieved that level of expertise, I still feel confident that I can maintain a 1 yard edge across most of the targets, but unfortunately, there always seem to be 3 or 4 that catch me up short.


I mostly agree but those that are exceptional even amongst the best also have much more than "average" talent (god given ability). Those that are exceptional at something for a fair amount of time have a lot of talent AND work hard. It is about impossible to precisely determine how much one's success comes from hard work and how much comes from pure talent. When a great amount of each come together you get folks like Michael Jordan and Levi Morgan.


----------

