# SF Forged Plus vs. Hoyt Horizon and other stuff..



## Bean Burrito

I'd go for the Horizon. The finish on the SF is sub-par and the Hoyt is a nicer bow.

I have a set of SF Premiums for practice limbs (990TX comp limbs) and they're pretty good. Obviously nowhere near as good as $600-800 comp limbs, but they're at a good price and all you need to start with.

Shibuya DX plunger is alright, but Cartel has (average quality) ones for much less. I use a triple and it works fine, but the build quality is crap (it's held together with superglue). 

6 arrows is certainly not enough, a lot of the time you will shoot 6 arrow ends. i.e. if you damage or lose an arrow, or even tear some fletchings, you're out of contention. Those super club arrows look pretty crappy. Platinum plus or even jazzes would be a better choice. Get your arrows a bit long so when you go up in draw length and weight (inevitably happens when you get stronger) they'll still work for you.


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## kshatriya

I have heard good things about the Carbon Impact Super Club arrows as beginner arrows, but 6 is definitely not enough. You're inevitably going to lose some, and a 6 arrow end is pretty standard, as Burrito said. 
However, saying that, I do think that platinum plus or the Jazz arrows by Easton would be a better choice. 
The Carbon Impact Super Clubs are actually made from the same shaft as the Ultra Fast shafts by the same company, but without the straightness tolerances (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=865534&page=1), and would probably be a good choice if you are shooting a very low poundage bow or need a cheap thin diameter shaft. As a beginner, you probably do not need the thin diameter, and I'm guessing that you're shooting in the 18-25 pound range, which should be more than enough to get an aluminum arrow into a target at 18m.


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## TheAncientOne

Viper1 has a suggested equipment list:

http://www.shootingthestickbow.com/Equipment%20check%20list%20for%20a%20new%20Olympic%20shooter.pdf

He is happy to answer any questions that you have.

TAO


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## tomah

i had a hoyt horizon... i compared it to the other horizons and you definately have to pick "the one". as i seen some with some sub par finishing. one thing that bugged me was that i could not adjust the tiller down on mine, it would only loosen. it looks like the hex head was punched out and would not accept a hex wrench. the grip is pretty good. i had to rough it up some and checker it myself to get it to stay on my palm during a sweat session.


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## rambling

Thanks everyone for the comments. The painted Horizon I saw (pink) was definitely sub par, the blackout version looked good. The SF looked top notch. My concerns about the SF were material quality, craftsmanship and functional design.

I'm going to be talking to my instructor tomorrow and then make a final decision. 

I don't see Easton Platinum Plus at the local shop. I do see: xx75 Jazz, ST Carbon Excel, X7 Eclipse, Fatboy, A/C/C + A/C/E (composites?), X10, X10 ProTour. 

Good weekend all and enjoy your shooting.


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## ryan b.

I have a blackout horizon and ordered a formula grip. Limbs are sebastian flute and they are very nice for the money. Stick with the shibuya or cavalier for a plunger.you won't be saving any money going with a cartel as youll just have to replace it in my experience. Note: the blackout is COOL but sticky things dont adhere well. My super rest worked but a cavalier rest (thinner sticky back) just popped right off. You can use some clear fingernail polish to "smooth"out the area on the blackout where you will want to stick something. I went with the excell over other risers because its the lightest 25"riser without going to a fiberbow. Make sure you attach a sight and stab to check if stab and sight bushings are aligned and square. I second the platinum plus for indoor.


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## Greysides

Have you considered second hand risers?
My first was a second-hand Hoyt GM. A sub-par finish is irrelevant on a second-hand riser- you're not paying the full 'new' price.
(If the finish of the Horizon is 'sub-par' on a high % of them, then that's scandulous. Even an entry level model should be finished properly.)
My GM 'has been' to the Olympics. IIRC, it's the best selling sports product of all time. 
I like the look of the Horizon but it will never make the big leagues.

You'll get more for your money on the second-hand market, not without some degree of risk though. A lot of archery stuff is bought/sold this way.

Plungers, get the Shibuya, it's worth the extra, still not expensive. Olympic archers use it. 
The only thing I'd buy from Cartel is the longrod..............and I don't use one.


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## TheAncientOne

> You'll get more for your money on the second-hand market..


You can get a Hoyt Aerotec for about $250 or a Helix for about $300 on eBay, both are excellent Tec risers. I still use a 25 year old GM indoors and a Helix for outdoors.

TAO


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## Bean Burrito

rambling said:


> Thanks everyone for the comments. The painted Horizon I saw (pink) was definitely sub par, the blackout version looked good. The SF looked top notch. My concerns about the SF were material quality, craftsmanship and functional design.
> 
> I'm going to be talking to my instructor tomorrow and then make a final decision.
> 
> I don't see Easton Platinum Plus at the local shop. I do see: xx75 Jazz, ST Carbon Excel, X7 Eclipse, Fatboy, A/C/C + A/C/E (composites?), X10, X10 ProTour.
> 
> Good weekend all and enjoy your shooting.


To start with, avoid the ACC, ACE, Fatboys, X7's and especially protours. As you learn and increase in strength your first set of arrows will be useless to you after a while, meaning blowing $400 on a set of X10's is pointless. Stick with the Jazz or Carbon Excel for your first set. 

What's your rough draw length and what weight limbs do you think you'll pick up? It's very important you don't overbow yourself.


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## rambling

Hi all, 

I ended up getting the SF Forged+. After shooting with it a few rounds today I feel it was a good choice. I can't compare it to the Horizon but I did try the Hoyt Helix and I like snappy feedback of the SF more. Also when shooting it the grip felt good, actually forgot I had doubts about it. 

Some guys when they saw and held the bow thought the riser was very good value for money, above what you get from the Horizon. Maybe they were just being nice to the new guy ;-)

The riser came with its own SF plunger (and magnetic rest) so I'm using that plunger now and a plastic rest, keeping the magnetic for later on.

The Shibuya Dual Click is really nice, much much better than the cartel one on the wooden Polaris I was shooting.

For the arrows, I was advised against the Jazz as they can bend easily, I took the advice and stayed with the Carbon Impact Super Club, size 20/30. I'm 5'7" and calculating draw length based on arm span : 2.5 I get 28".

The limbs, I initially wanted 26/8# but they had only 24# or 30# on all the entry level models so I went with the 24# (SF Premium wooden, medium). When I drew I felt they were just nice for my strength now - I can hold for a few seconds without feeling I must let go asap. If/when I outgrow them I'll invest in better limbs.


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## Bean Burrito

Very good choice to go with the light limbs. You need to start light to build up a good form. Start out at 50 pounds, you won't shoot well, and you'll probably injure yourself. You'll be much better off with the light limbs you've chosen. With the Horizon you'll have about a 15% adjustment on the limbs, so they'll last you a while. 

One of the important parts in shooting is transferring the load to your back (i.e. using backtension). With practice and exercise shooting those limbs will just get easier and easier. I've worked up to about 40# on the fingers at 31" now and can hold steady, in the gold (excluding deep breaths) for a minute, then still pull through the clicker and make the shot just as well. Obviously when you begin you'll have less muscle conditioning, but these muscles will build up quickly if you use them properly and don't strain or damage them.

Calculating your draw length with some magical formula simply doesn't work in a large majority of cases. Lots of things influence your draw length- it could be off by an inch or more using these numbers. When you go to she shop, get the owner/coach/whatever to position you and check your form, then run a few arrows through it. Once you've found a happy starting point, then your draw length can be measured with a tape, arrow etc.

Jazzes are a little on the soft side, compared to an ultra high grade aluminium like the X7. So they will bend if they're abused. Don't get me wrong though, I've mortally wounded X7's and various carbon arrows too. Often it won't take much.

The SF limbs are a good choice. I'm shooting a set until I'm conditioned well enough for my 990TX's and they will shoot as well as the shooter can. But did they spell confidence wrong on yours too? 

I'm guessing the rest is a Hoyt super rest. Nothing wrong with them, and some amazing scores have been shot with them


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## m013690

It's not meant to be spelled "confidence." I thought the same thing, so I looked it up. It's a French word ("confiance") that means roughly the equivalent of confidence. I thought it was odd that they spelled the other two in English, but then either forgot to translate it or, perhaps it's just a coincidence that their misspelling just happens to be spelled correctly, but in the original language.


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## rambling

Hi Bean, yes it's becoming more apparent to me as well that going with the lighter limbs was far better. I had a longer shooting session today and by the end of it was quite happy I wasn't shooting heavier limbs. There's also room for adjustment on the SF Forged Plus I was told, basically if tightened from their current position would result in extra 3-4 pounds.

What you described in terms of going through a few arrows is exactly what we did right after I got the bow set up, the instructor let me shoot a few different lengths and then said, this one is too short, this one is just right, get the 20/30.

Yes, the rest is a Hoyt Super rest. I don't know what is the difference between that and the rest that came with the riser but the super rest is working just fine. The weakest link is just me for now 

Thanks for your comments and advice.


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## Bean Burrito

rambling said:


> Hi Bean, yes it's becoming more apparent to me as well that going with the lighter limbs was far better. I had a longer shooting session today and by the end of it was quite happy I wasn't shooting heavier limbs. There's also room for adjustment on the SF Forged Plus I was told, basically if tightened from their current position would result in extra 3-4 pounds.
> 
> What you described in terms of going through a few arrows is exactly what we did right after I got the bow set up, the instructor let me shoot a few different lengths and then said, this one is too short, this one is just right, get the 20/30.
> 
> Yes, the rest is a Hoyt Super rest. I don't know what is the difference between that and the rest that came with the riser but the super rest is working just fine. The weakest link is just me for now
> 
> Thanks for your comments and advice.


Hi again,

Glad to see you've gotten started, you've got a good setup.

Adjustment varies from 10% (5% down and 5% up from marked weight) to 15% (5% down 10% up) depending on riser and limbs. Your manual should tell you how many turns you can wind the limbs out safely. It's probably set on a low setting now, which is good to begin with.

Now the thing to do, is as I'm sure you know, practice practice practice.

After a while, once you're coming to a similar anchor each time, you could use a clicker (this can be done as soon as you have some consistency as long as your limbs are the right weight for you). There's nothing wrong with going without for a while to keep things simple. Your instructor should be able to guide you through the setup of one. At first, the clicker should be set "cold" so you have to work hard to get it through. As you get more consistent, it can be set hotter.

This is another point similar to the clicker. It's only worth doing once:
a) you have some kind of consistency down
b) your form and release are good

An accurate tune can be done quickly. This should be done under the guidance of a coach/instructor when you have more experience and are shooting better.

This tuning method uses a stiff plunger to hide masking effects from the cushion plunger. I first saw it posted by I believe, James Park

1. Set the plunger rock hard by replacing the spring with a matchstick. Some can be tightened down enough to be rock solid.
2. Check limb, string and sight alignment. Then adjust the plunger position so that the arrow is in complete centershot. This means aligned with the string, limbs, limb bolts etc. 
3. Shoot 3 fletched and 3 bareshaft arrows at 15-20m
4. First, correct nocking point. If the bareshafts hit low then move the nocking point down. If the bareshifts hit above the fletched group move the nocking point up.
5. Once nocking point is correct, then you work with adjusting the bow to match the arrow. Again shoot the 2 groups of shafts, if:

If the unfletched arrows hit LEFT of the fletched group the arrows are STIFF. Correct this by any of these: Increase bow draw weight, increase brace height, increase point weight, decrease nock end weight, use a string with fewer strands (if safe). If the bareshafts can't be made to group in the same place as the fletched arrows the spine is dramatically wrong and new arrows will probably be needed.

If the unfletched arrows hit RIGHT of the fletched group the arrows are WEAK. To fix this: decrease draw weight, decrease brace, decrease point weight, increase nock end weight, use a string with more strands.

Now, eventually you want the bareshafts to hit slightly low and slightly left (only very slightly) of the fletched arrows. While in a perfect setup they would hit identically, this improves clearance and arrow spine when the extra nock weight is taken into account. This is done with a stiff plunger. It's worth noting that if you are left handed most of these directions will be reversed.

Now that's done, it's time to bring the plunger into the equation. Take the matchstick out and set it to "something nice"-about halfway. It can be finetuned later. Now, move the plunger out slightly so the arrow is "outside" of centershot (facing very slightly left for right handed archer). You need to have your sight set from the tuning with the stiff shafts. Now, keeping the plunger the same, adjust the plunger position to bring the arrows back to where they were.

i.e.:

1. Shoot at middle with old sight setting
2. If arrows hit LEFT move plunger to the RIGHT
3. If arrows hit RIGHT then move plunger to the LEFT

Now, eventually your arrows will hit in the middle again.

Then, use a powder test to make sure you have good clearance. Then shoot some arrows and watch the flight, checking there is no erratic motion.

Keep in mind this is for later development. You need a good level of consistency to actually be able to do the tuning process, let alone get the benefits from it.


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## rambling

Thanks! That's some very interesting material. I'm not quite there yet but I'm copying and keeping this stuff for later. Cheers.


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## imcabby

this was a very informative thread.. resurrecting it from the dead for us newbs..


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## goodfornothing

I just read it too imcabby lol. I'm going to save that text on tuning. And I also think I may be going with a SF forged plus riser as well


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## Dado

Even though you already bought it, I too also prefered Forged_+ over the Horizon (had two of each in my club) and the SFs I tried felt better for me, and why not - better looking.
Good luck.


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## Humdinger

I think you picked the perfect setup to start with. Enjoy!!!


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## titanium man

Just examined first hand an SF Forged Riser...............outstanding, and I hate to mention "for the money". Let's just say, any money!! Granted I haven't started to help tune this riser, but the quality is fantastic. I have no doubt other bow companies will be acquiring one of these, to see what they are up against. It's great to be a beginning archer, with super quality, right priced equipment like this.


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## Chris RL

The Aerotecs are more like $300 these days used on eBay...


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## imcabby

I have now a Hoyt Horizon and have a SF Forged on its way.. i will be able to do a comparison using the same limbs.. i will do a comparison email when i get to it.


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## EBK

I own the SF forged matte gray riser, I don't know what people are talking about, but the riser has an anodized finish and is far superior to any painted riser in this price range. Maybe the other ones are painted but the gray one is anodized. The SF is also forged which is much superior to anything generally in this price range and a forged riser is generally stronger. So I say SFforged over the Hoyt Horizon. I don't Hoyt makes a great product but I don't think they are competitive is this price range.


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## imcabby

ok... i just put together the SF Forged together.. 

NOTE: i have an AAE wrap around rest on the Hoyt, and an CF SF Rest on the SF Riser. but both using Shibuya plungers)

both using 12 strand FF
both using Hoyt Carbon 550 at 34.9#
using 1816's with 80g glue in fp
both had same tiller distances (tuned)

notes about the SF:

- The "cutout" part of the riser is about 1/8th slimmer than the hoyt
- top and bottom tiller where exact same on the sf out of the box
- grip is thinner but comfortable
- silver forged colour is very nice.. smooth with some texture..

notes about the Hoyt Horizon

- bottom tiller was 1/8" shorter
- stock grip is plastic but a nice size grip
- blackout finish is tres cool
- looks great with the 550's

COMPARISON:

The major thing i noticed was that there was a slight vibration using the Horizon riser. More that i can "feel" it through the whole riser on the release. Nothing from preventing it from performing well with the right shooter.

the SF Forged riser.. all i could "hear" was the resonating of the bow string on the release. Almost free of vibration (and that is with no stabilizers or dampening). It was almost un-nerving how little it vibrated or resonated. 

THe SF also had top and bottom dampener interfaces.. the hoyt did not...

the SF also had a slight limb pocket where the hoyt did not.

Verdict: I want to keep both! lol

If i had to choose between the two, i would choose the Sebastien Flute Forged Plus. The feel and finish and almost lack of vibration on the release, is what won me over.

for a good used price.. the Hoyt is a great choice.. but for brand new out of the box for Beginner/Intermediate.. i would reccomend the SF Forged Plus.

The real test is what happens over time


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## ladyeclectic

Like the OP I recently purchased (from an AT member, yay for the second hand market!) a SF Forged Plus riser. imcabby's review reflects what I've seen with my setup, very little vibration in the riser although the string does like to "resonate" a bit.  I started out with a 35# Samick Sage but for the aluminum riser I decided to follow common wisdom and go for lighter, and boy I'm happy I did! 26# limbs (approx. 23-24# with my DL) is more than enough to fling arrows the meager 20 yards I shoot, using 1616 arrows. The SF grip is narrow, much more so than my Sage, and feels very comfortable in my hand when the string is drawn; I no longer have the tension in my bow hand that I did with the Sage. 

I have a feeling this setup will last me a good long while!


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## Humdinger

Well i do think these riser are close in comparison, However i do feel the SF Forged is an all around better riser. I like that they used the Anodized finish over the powder coating that you see on the Horizon. Sf risers are very smooth looking and come with a comfy grip, i also like the adjustability of the Sf over the Hoyt. The hoyt finish has alot of Orange peel to the finish and is not as smooth as the SF. Also the Hoyts limb alignment can get frustrating at times. One other thing i didnt like on the Hoyt was the plastic grip, it was hard to get your hand settled into the grip. Also the plastic was very slippery which made it hard to keep a consistent grip position.

I shoot a Hoyt Horizon and after a ton of time trying to get the alignment right, adding 7 ounces of weight to the riser, and putting a Jager Grip on it shoots awesome. No vibrations at all anywhere on the bow. ALL in ALL its been a good riser for my beginning days. It did its job.

Now if i had to start as a new archer all over again i would pick the SF Forged. For the same price as the Hoyt Horizon i feel the guys at SF did a great job on this riser. Its very sexy!!

I guess either way you go your getting a $250 riser! They will both do you right. Atleast until you know which direction you want to go in archery, then you can buy a more specific Riser for what you want to do.


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