# Team USA Suspensions



## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

There is a posting/link on the USA archery newsletter re: a coach and a competitor who have been suspended for 6 months and one year for harassment and misbehavior. I'll leave it to you to find it on the website.


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## memosteve (Nov 24, 2012)

archeryal said:


> There is a posting/link on the USA archery newsletter re: a coach and a competitor who have been suspended for 6 months and one year for harassment and misbehavior. I'll leave it to you to find it on the website.


Yeah, I already saw that...It doesn't go into any detail about the suspensions, and if true, 6 months and 12 months aren't enough!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There is a long, long history of not talking about "certain things" on this forum. Even though everyone already knows about them. 

Having said that, the only people who actually know what happened were the people in the room when it happened. I won't comment on either case for that reason. But that won't stop lots of others from talking about things they have no first hand knowledge of.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I think most have refrained and rightly so, because none of us know what really happened in either case.

the 12 month suspension one has been mentioned before on Archerytalk a few months ago. He is generally a well liked guy, I myself am included in that and most everyone does NOT know the true details, so most on here have kept quiet. Does nothing good to gossip and speculate about it. The person is doing their suspension and hopefully after it is over, will come back to archery and move past it. I for one know nothing about the situation, nor is it any of my business. So i think its best left as it is. 

the 6 month suspension one seems to also be taken care of by USA archery. Though a shorter suspension, for a coach, that kind of suspension can be career ending. As i am not privy to any of that situation, i am taking it at face value that USA archery has handled it to their satisfaction and after the suspension, again things will move on. 

To post and speculate about either, i dont think really benefits anything. USA Archery made public the suspensions and the reason. I dont have any knowledge on what suspension would be appropriate. USA Archery should know that and they dealt out what they thought was fitting. That is enough for me. 

While both are sad for everyone involved and for USA archery as a sport, It is not any of my business. 


Chris


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

From my understanding, USA Archery has employed a 3rd party to handle the SafeSport violations. 

Brady commented a bit on this topic during a Lancaster Archery podcast. He was saying that with the way things are going with the tightening of the SafeSport regulations, there will be a learning curve involved by all parties to ensure we are following protocol, but in the long run it will be good for the sport.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

To clarify how SafeSport issues are being handled now by USA Archery and all USOC National Governing Body (NGB). The USOC set up a committee called the SafeSport committee to handle all issues about physical, verbal and sexual harassment with athletes, volunteers and coaches. They have since spun this into an independent organization called The Center For SafeSport. All NGB's pay into this organization and all issue are sent to the Center. The Center does all the investigations, handles any lawsuits and hands out any penalties and/or suspensions. If the Center decided that it is more of a Code of Conduct issue rather than a SafeSport issue, the Center will send it to the NGB to handle.

What this does is remove any chance that a NGB will "look the other way" when certain issues arise, as it has happened in USA Swimming and USA Gymnastics.

For those who wish to know more about what is considered a SafeSport issue, I highly recommend that you go to the Center for SafeSport website and read up on the issues. I also recommend that you take the free SafeSport class. It will be eye opening. www.safsport.org.


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## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

It really isn’t good enough to say we trust a governing body to take care of it in a situation such as this. 

Silence, especially in cases involving “sexual misconduct”, is usually to the benefit of the abuser and to the detriment of not only the victim but also to the detriment of potential future victims. It is not so long ago we trusted the catholic church to deal with claims of abuse resulting in more victims. I doubt that we will ever know the full extent of the horror caused by keeping silent in those cases.

By not discussing it we are also doing a disservice to the individuals who have been suspended. From the length of the suspensions I can only surmise that the offences were not criminal in nature and if, for example, it is a matter of failure to disclose a complaint or something similar then I believe it would be better to publish the facts rather than have this climate of heresay where people will automatically default to a worst case imagining of what took place. By not reporting the facts they make it appear as if there is something to hide and that is certainly not good for our sport.

For those who say “it’s nobody’s business” then I say yes it is. As a young teen I was a victim of abuse by a sports coach and I say if there is something going on in my/our sport it is our business to be aware of the facts. We should not allow anybody , no matter how high they are in the rankings or who they are related to, to hide behind the smoke and mirrors of committees and NGBs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jwrigley, if you have first-hand information then feel free to share it. However, I doubt you do and neither do the rest of us so anything discussed here is mere speculation. I hear Facebook is a great place for that these days. 

Personally, I think that a governing body taking disciplinary action without a legal basis (i.e. conviction) is a very slippery slope. If an athlete or their parents want to get "rid" of someone they don't like, they can accuse that person of a SafeSport violation and make their life pretty miserable. All an archer or their parent has to do these days is accuse someone of verbal abuse or harassment and off you go... 

I know several veteran volunteer coaches - myself included - who won't be playing that game. The risk to a person's credibility and personal finances is simply not worth the reward. Coaches will need to carry personal liability insurance and be prepared to engage in a legal defense if little jimmy or sally doesn't make that Jr. USAT squad or the JDT Red team or whatever. You think I'm joking? Just stay in this sport long enough and you'll see. And it's only going to get worse as the society becomes more and more litigious.

After 15 years of running JOAD programs in two states, I am done. Ya'll have fun navigating this mess.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

How do you have a rational discussion of whether "in the long run it will be good for the sport" when we don't know what happened? If you're gonna publicly suspend a well known coach or athlete for, say, six months or a year -- as has recently been done -- for alleged sexual misconduct or harassment, shouldn't the details be public as well? That then gives appropriate context and transparent information to archery consumers/athletes. "Oh, that's a joke, bringing a girl in the OTC consensually but in violation of team rules (speculating) should have earned him ________ instead (quietly sent away from OTC and left off team for a period), not a public sex misconduct suspension." Or, "wow, how are they still allowed in the sport." (if it's worse) You don't know what to think if it's handled like the Catholic Church used to deal with such things. And with what happened in gymnastics (or in the Weinstein stuff currently in the news) I don't know if I want it handled so quietly. [The next girl visiting the Weinstein office doesn't know what the last one endured if everyone keeps their mouth shut. Cobain's wife made a veiled comment about it a decade ago and was banned from a prominent talent agency.....]

I think a little sunlight actually would benefit both the "we don't want people railroaded by some new sheriff without enough procedural protections" and "people deserve to know this stuff so they can make informed decisions" camps. If it's overwrought, we can compare facts to result. If they're protecting the team, ditto.


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## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

John,

I do not have first hand information on this case and agree that neither this forum nor facebook nor any anywhere else is the place for gossip. Although pointedly, for all those who allude to knowing the outline of what this is all about must have got that information from somewhere that was not an “official source” and therefore stoked the rumour mill themselves at some point. 

My point is that USA Archery by not being open and transparent regarding the facts of the case are allowing this gossip to fester and THAT is worse for the credibility of the sport than anything these two individuals may actually be guilty of.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

USA Archery is as open an transparent as they can be.

They stated the suspended persons name, the charge and the punishment.


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## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

XForce Girl said:


> USA Archery is as open an transparent as they can be.
> 
> They stated the suspended persons name, the charge and the punishment.


I don't agree.

If someone told my wife I was involved in a road traffic accident and left it at that I'm sure she would want to know if I clipped somebody's wing mirror or was thrown out the front windscreen.

Similarly if an offence is stated to be "sexual misconduct" then I think everyone would agree that there's a pretty big difference between jokingly "mooning" a fellow competitor and ..well I wouldn't like to contemplate the other end of that scale.

Nobody wants names or salacious details but the absence of any sort of detail is giving people room to fill in their own blanks and that is what I find damaging.


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

Dang, I thought I logged into NFL.com by accident LOL


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Dang, I thought I logged into NFL.com by accident LOL


That's what USArchery is in for. And you've seen how well these personal issues are handled by the NFL! 
Like I said, let the legal system handle it. A so-called "non-profit" governing org. picking winners and losers is a very slippery slope.

I just received a PM from a very well known coach who completely agrees with me and suggested those suspended could and should sue USArchery for defamation. 

This is what our uber-PC, hyper-litigious society has brought us and those who acquiesce are unfortunately contributing to the problem.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Well, until i know facts in each case, it is none of my business. 

If i were told all the facts, then i could have an opinion. But then, thats what i would have. An opinion. Still nothing that is pertinent to either case. So i have refrained from posting about the suspensions.

I read each when posted by USA archery. That is the information they wanted me to have. Until there is more, i can do nothing but feel bad for the sport. 

I have heard other archers comment about it. I do not know if they know actual details or not so i dont repeat those comments to others. 

If anyone wants to state the actual events and details, then i may have something to say on the situations. Until then, i dont want to comment on rumors. I have not heard that any criminal or civil charges were brought in either case, so that gives me the level of the infractions. 

USA Archery seems to have handled it to their satisfaction. What can i add to that? In my opinion nothing. 


Chris


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## VAtiger (Dec 15, 2016)

As an adult in our sport reading this post, especially given the current newsfeed in our country, thinking we should all be certified through SafeSport training, I decided to download the course. Go ahead and pony up if you haven't already; it takes precious little time, and, as a group, it may help us to be better stewards of something we love.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

All level 1,2,3 and 4 coaches in USA archery should have taken the course. We all have to retake it since it has been reworked in the next coming months.


Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

XForce Girl said:


> USA Archery is as open an transparent as they can be.
> 
> They stated the suspended persons name, the charge and the punishment.


I don't think name, rank, and serial number is "transparent" when they are found guilty on a state of determined facts with a public punishment. In my profession if someone is found guilty by the state board, it's name, license number, age, and a rather substantial snippet of what was determined to have happened (which, having been found guilty, I don't understand the interest in hiding). We also have private reprimands where one is found "guilty" but their name isn't publicized and the punishment is admonishment behind closed doors. On those, they list the broken rules in the monthly magazine.

To me, if you feel like it was a moderate harmless lapse deserving of quiet admonishment, allow for and exercise the choice of private reprimands. If you're gonna find someone publicly guilty and call it sexual misconduct or harassment, and toss them from the sport for a period, it's probably fairest to all concerned to give a little more than name, rank, serial number. I don't get putting the name in the newsletter along with a bad-sounding charge and then we sweep it back under the rug like it didn't happen. 

FWIW I don't think "gossip" applies anymore. "Gossip" is it wasn't publicized, no one is being punished publicly, and someone is just out of nowhere saying "did you hear x did y." This is someone went before USAA on charges and it's in the newsletter they were found guilty and suspended. That's gossip?? And I think you can get out "unwanted advance," "offensive remark," "mooned," "brought co-ed into OTC premises after hours," without a ton of details and we get the drift. But if you didn't want public scrutiny of the facts and it's a moderate offense, why was the punishment public, then?

If they're found guilty it's not defamation almost by definition. He was charged with x offense under some athlete code and found guilty. etc. If there are issues with process and someone wants to pull a Tom Brady and challenge them, more power to them. 

To me context matters. Sophomore year in college NCAA decided to crack down on cussing. Game one of the season I skim an open shot off the top of the bar just over goal. I cuss. Under the new directives I got a yellow. Two games later the new directives were forgotten. The less information given, the harder it is to argue. Jay got a yellow, nothing to talk about. Jay got a yellow for loudly cussing, speculation ensues. At the ref? At fans? At a player? Actually it was at me and the whole previous year it would have been inconsequential. The more you know, the more it's like, ok, dude got railroaded, or dude didn't need this little deal put on the street with "sex" attached to the charge, or dude shouldn't be coaching anyone's children. if I don't know which I don't know if the system is going too far or not.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I think USA Archery has to post the name of person and the suspension if any to the public. I think its in one of their bylaws or something. To bring transparency. There was a post about that previously. I dont know what privacy laws past that prohibit the details or synopsis being given.

and i think this is a better conversation to have versus one about the actual infractions. 

Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I think we should get more but I assume their reason for name, rank, and serial number is probably precisely to defamation-proof the published conclusion. Name, age, charge, suspension. Name, age, and punishment are factual on their face, that's who you are and how it was decided, and while the charge might be in dispute if all you do is list the relevant provision, that's a fact, too. Convicted of murder might get overturned later but in procedural terms that's factually what on that day the result was. Done that way it's fairly bulletproof. If you wanted to make them stand behind fact-finding at risk of defamation, you actually want more, not less.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

The risk USAA is putting themselves under is due to the language they are using. The Nature Of Grievance section of the website lists "Sexual Misconduct" and "Sexual Harassment". Those are criminal acts that are unproven in a court of law. That is potentially defamatory. If they restated those as something like "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee on Fraternization" that is not defamatory.

The other grievance listed is "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee Coaching Ethics Code". That is not defamatory.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Eriks said:


> The risk USAA is putting themselves under is due to the language they are using. The Nature Of Grievance section of the website lists "Sexual Misconduct" and "Sexual Harassment". Those are criminal acts that are unproven in a court of law. That is potentially defamatory. If they restated those as something like "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee on Fraternization" that is not defamatory.
> 
> The other grievance listed is "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee Coaching Ethics Code". That is not defamatory.


Bingo!


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

In the company I work for sexual harassment ranges from repeating ask for a date when told no already, to telling dirty joke, to inappropriate touching, all the way to rape. If my kid's coach is accused of sexual harassment, I would like to know more. 

I agree with Azzuri that if it is published that someone is violating a sexual harassment rule, more specific is needed.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Eriks said:


> The risk USAA is putting themselves under is due to the language they are using. The Nature Of Grievance section of the website lists "Sexual Misconduct" and "Sexual Harassment". Those are criminal acts that are unproven in a court of law. That is potentially defamatory. If they restated those as something like "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee on Fraternization" that is not defamatory.
> 
> The other grievance listed is "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee Coaching Ethics Code". That is not defamatory.


Coaching Ethics Code: "1.08 Sexual Harassment." It's a specific provision within the coach rules. I assume there is something similarly specific in a code or handbook, broadly headlined "sexual misconduct" (since it might need to cover a variety of acts or omissions) for athletes. If the labels feel too broad brush then have them change the labels or the way the offenses are worded or lumped together. But if the argument is that a section label defamed you, and they found you violated that section and just cited the name of that provision in the rulebook, truth is an absolute defamation defense. If there was no provision name on the Garrett thing, that would be a little inartful and mean to make "fraternization" into "sexual misconduct." However, literally speaking you can accurately lump term a in box b. And like I said, for all I know some applicable rule someplace has that headline on it.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

And to me the process of oversight (or undersight, as it may be, from us), is easier on this if we know what the conduct is. If "misconduct" is really "fraternization" and "harassment" is really a "dirty joke" that the recipient was unoffended by but bothered a third party eavesdropper, more is better than less. if I want to challenge an outcome by appeal or more broadly defend myself or my company, I want more rationale out there, not less. More rationale narrows it down and can remove some of the sting. "That's not what happened (which you can't say if no clue what the allegation is)." Or, "Oh they call it that, but they're really saying he......." Or, "That's a bit harsh and public for that little." Or, "ick. Yeah, we're telling students to avoid him now."


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

I just saw the names and I am *FLOORED*!!! I need to make a phone call.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

Azzurri said:


> Coaching Ethics Code: "1.08 Sexual Harassment." It's a specific provision within the coach rules. I assume there is something similarly specific in a code or handbook, broadly headlined "sexual misconduct" (since it might need to cover a variety of acts or omissions) for athletes. If the labels feel too broad brush then have them change the labels or the way the offenses are worded or lumped together. But if the argument is that a section label defamed you, and they found you violated that section and just cited the name of that provision in the rulebook, truth is an absolute defamation defense. If there was no provision name on the Garrett thing, that would be a little inartful and mean to make "fraternization" into "sexual misconduct." However, literally speaking you can accurately lump term a in box b. And like I said, for all I know some applicable rule someplace has that headline on it.


As long as you frame it within the words "Violation of the United States Olympic Committee Policy on..." you're fine. At that point you're being suspended for violating a policy. 

What is sitting on the very public USA Archery website does not frame the violations in terms of USOC policy. In one case it just states "Sexual Misconduct".


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> jwrigley, if you have first-hand information then feel free to share it. However, I doubt you do and neither do the rest of us so anything discussed here is mere speculation. I hear Facebook is a great place for that these days.
> 
> Personally, I think that a governing body taking disciplinary action without a legal basis (i.e. conviction) is a very slippery slope. If an athlete or their parents want to get "rid" of someone they don't like, they can accuse that person of a SafeSport violation and make their life pretty miserable. All an archer or their parent has to do these days is accuse someone of verbal abuse or harassment and off you go...
> 
> ...


JOhn, as you probably know, I am an attorney as well as a coach. I handled Title VII discrimination cases and I was the Safe sport chair for another NGB-thought that position only happened the last year of my 6 year tenure ( now over due to mandatory term limits). When I was a college coach, a trouble maker on a team I coached claimed I had harassed her. I was ultimately cleared and the individual was dismissed from the team, but it was a serious PITA. But you are right about the issues this can cause. I know some coaches (Male) who will not give private lessons to female students period. Others will only do it in range where there are other archers or coaches present to guard against any claims of abuse. I don't go that far but its important to understand that some people out there are truly evil or so ambitious they think nothing of ruining the reputation of a coach. and yes, I am aware of some of the outrageous cases of abuse that have plagued some other sports-swimming and gymnastics for example, have been rocked with sexual abuse scandals. however in some cases its guilty until proven guilty in these matters. and the NGBs and this new central Safe sport organization can still be subjected to massive lawsuits as well. we all know about the Duke LaCross team case and how (at least in my case if I were a judge or juror) many people would have been more than happy to hit that university and the lying "victim" with multi million dollar punitive damages


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> some people out there are truly evil or so ambitious they think nothing of ruining the reputation of a coach.


Yup, and we have more and more in our "little" sport every day, what with parents thinking of so-called "teams" and "scholarships." There is now more pressure than ever to "get their kid noticed" (although I've been hearing that phrase for over 10 years now) by certain coaches within the organization in order to compete for select "teams" and qualify for free international travel, free coaching and room and board. And it's only going to get worse.

Because of one archer's (and their parent's) unwillingness to admit to their severe TP, I was called every name in the book and accused of all sorts of things a few years ago. After four or five episodes like that I finally asked myself why on earth I was donating my time and expertise to help other people's kids when I could instead be spending time with my own wife and kids. Same conclusion I drew when I left the JDT program years ago. Not sure why I had to revisit the same lesson but I guess I'm hard headed.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> jwrigley, if you have first-hand information then feel free to share it. However, I doubt you do and neither do the rest of us so anything discussed here is mere speculation. I hear Facebook is a great place for that these days.
> 
> Personally, I think that a governing body taking disciplinary action without a legal basis (i.e. conviction) is a very slippery slope. If an athlete or their parents want to get "rid" of someone they don't like, they can accuse that person of a SafeSport violation and make their life pretty miserable. All an archer or their parent has to do these days is accuse someone of verbal abuse or harassment and off you go...
> 
> ...


"I think that a governing body taking disciplinary action without a legal basis (i.e. conviction) is a very slippery slope." This exactly, I hope this is not political.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

To make sure everyone understands. Since Jan. 1, 2017, all of the NGB's have been taken completely out of the process. All SafeSport issues are filed or sent directly to the Center For SafeSport. The Center is now completely independent from the USOC and the NGB's except that the NGB's pay a fee annually to fund the Center. This fee is based on the membership size of the organization.

Once the Center receives a grievance, the Center will do all the investigations, including hiring private investigators, they speak to any first hand witnesses and bring in each party to testify. If a SafeSport issue fall under any local or federal laws then the NGB's and SafeSport are required to alert authorities, as we all are, and yes this was done in ***** case as it dealt with an underage person (I do not know what the DA decided, but since there was no prosecution, I am guessing it was dropped, but he still broke SafeSport rules on conduct). Law enforcement will deal with the legal side and SafeSport will still deal with the issue as it pertains to SafeSport.

Once SafeSport has done all the investigating they will hand down any decisions to the parties concerned and the NGB's. We have to abide by those decisions. We are not given any details about the cases and in some cases, if the complaint was filed directly with SafeSport, we are not even given who filed the complaint. We are just told who the complaint was filed against. The goal of the Center For SafeSport is to take the NGB's completely out of the loop, so that issues like what has happened in USA Gymnastics, where coaches and the NGB turned a blind eye, does not happen again.

SafeSport issues are common sense. "Open and Observable" is part of the key. We need to start coaching where we can be seen, in the open. I personally, will not coach a minor one-on-one without their parents in the same area or room. You need to be attentive on what you say and the "old" style of "in your face" coaching is no longer acceptable. When dealing with athletes who are not a minor, I still work with that athlete where we are seen by people. As an ex-volleyball coach, this is what we were taught, so for many, SafeSport is not an issue. It may be inconvenient, but it needs to be done.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I personally, will not coach a minor one-on-one without their parents in the same area or room.


And then hope that's enough and that those parents are decent, honest people.


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## toxoph (Mar 24, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> And then hope that's enough and that those parents are decent, honest people.


So true, I echo what others have said here about never being alone or doing one-on-one coaching. I just stepped down as a scout leader after 9 years (took a break after my son made Eagle) and BSA has a very similar program as Safe Sport called Youth Protection. We always practiced 2 deep leadership. But like said, all it takes is an accusation to ruin you, even if it is irrefutable it didnt happen backed by witnesses and cleared. When the word "sexual" is in the charges, images are conjured in the mind that may be no where near the truth.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

How "open and transparent" is the Safesport process? It makes sense that maybe USAA shouldn't handle its own complaints of certain natures to avoid potential interest biases of "but we know him" or "but this is the future star of the sport." The evidence should decide. But I don't know if it serves the interests of either victims, accuseds, or the general constituency of USAA if we take special care to try and have the issues neutrally determined but the fact-finding itself is fairly hushed. I'd say then you've dealt with the bias or wagon-circling issues but left the third-party consumer roughly as uninformed.


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## Mengtian (May 5, 2016)

When I coached a youth hockey team that included boys and girls, a 10 year old girl asked fro me to tie her laces for he hockey pants which came undone (waist area)....I was like, NO. And made sure I made my remarks in a loud and clear voice.

Sad thing is that as a coach, you should be able to help with the equipment. But no way on this earth was I going to reach in that area and get her laces undone.


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Sometimes i wish people posted more often and detailed on questions like archery form, trainings, exercises, etc, like in the posts like this...... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

This is a really good thread. It is important to understand these issues and discuss them, not brush them aside as has been historically done.

I think that USAA is risking trouble by posting the suspension list and exposing themselves to liability. Employers cannot do that either, it is a fast track to a lawsuit. I think they should instead have a link to Safe Sport and they post the suspensions, so USAA is not taking the risk. If Safe Sport is making the determination, then they should post the result.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

To those who disagree and quoted my post. (i'm not going to repost your comments)

Here are my thoughts, I do not need to know the gory details of the suspensions.

As long as I make sure my "house" is in compliance and in order and I follow the rules, I have nothing to worry about. I operate my club in open ranges with no locked doors or private spaces. I follow safe sport and sometimes go even further with my own transparency. 

I know people will talk without knowing the details and leave it up to assumptions as to what actually happened. But, honestly I doesn't interest me to know any more details.

We all have to re-certify Safe Sport pretty soon anyway.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

XForce Girl said:


> To those who disagree and quoted my post. (i'm not going to repost your comments)
> 
> Here are my thoughts, I do not need to know the gory details of the suspensions.
> 
> ...


Sure sounds good until you have a parent or archer with bad intentions come along and upset that apple cart. I pray it never happens to you or any other program leader. But do you really appreciate the personal liability you have for all the students in your program? Ignorance surely is bliss, and I lived that way for 15 years. But not any longer. And even if you are successful at defending yourself and your club against a bad actor, is all the time and effort and expense really worth it to you personally? 

I guess each of us has to make that decision for themselves. Knowing what I know now, I might never have volunteered to be the head coach for a JOAD program, and just remained an archer only or possibly have given private lessons. When you're the face of the club, eventually you will have some unhappy customers who will blame you for their or their child's shortcomings. And then from there, you can only hope they don't decide to use the "system" against you.


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## liquidator4711 (Aug 4, 2016)

Sometimes I am just extra thankful for living on the other side of the pond...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

liquidator4711 said:


> Sometimes I am just extra thankful for living on the other side of the pond...


Why, no attorneys over there?


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## paper shooter 2 (Jun 30, 2016)

XForce Girl said:


> We all have to re-certify Safe Sport pretty soon anyway.


I can choose not to renew and skip the new certification and anything else they can dream up. I will not be teaching anymore. It just is not worth the hassle.


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## liquidator4711 (Aug 4, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Why, no attorneys over there?


You are on the right track as usual - fewer of them and less liability overall due to more restrictive legal system with regard to non-criminal actions...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Sure sounds good until you have a parent or archer with bad intentions come along and upset that apple cart. I pray it never happens to you or any other program leader. But do you really appreciate the personal liability you have for all the students in your program? Ignorance surely is bliss, and I lived that way for 15 years. But not any longer. And even if you are successful at defending yourself and your club against a bad actor, is all the time and effort and expense really worth it to you personally?
> 
> I guess each of us has to make that decision for themselves. Knowing what I know now, I might never have volunteered to be the head coach for a JOAD program, and just remained an archer only or possibly have given private lessons. When you're the face of the club, eventually you will have some unhappy customers who will blame you for their or their child's shortcomings. And then from there, you can only hope they don't decide to use the "system" against you.


OK, I see your point now. Re-thinking my previous comment.

Do you think these suspension cases were due to what you said above?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

liquidator4711 said:


> You are on the right track as usual - fewer of them and less liability overall due to more restrictive legal system with regard to non-criminal actions...


Sounds nice actually. 

However, I just finished watching Morgan Freeman's piece on N. Ireland and the war between Protestants and Catholics. A case where us Americans are like wut the....?


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Azzurri said:


> How do you have a rational discussion of whether "in the long run it will be good for the sport" when we don't know what happened? If you're gonna publicly suspend a well known coach or athlete for, say, six months or a year -- as has recently been done -- for alleged sexual misconduct or harassment, shouldn't the details be public as well? That then gives appropriate context and transparent information to archery consumers/athletes. "Oh, that's a joke, bringing a girl in the OTC consensually but in violation of team rules (speculating) should have earned him ________ instead (quietly sent away from OTC and left off team for a period), not a public sex misconduct suspension." Or, "wow, how are they still allowed in the sport." (if it's worse) You don't know what to think if it's handled like the Catholic Church used to deal with such things. And with what happened in gymnastics (or in the Weinstein stuff currently in the news) I don't know if I want it handled so quietly. [The next girl visiting the Weinstein office doesn't know what the last one endured if everyone keeps their mouth shut. Cobain's wife made a veiled comment about it a decade ago and was banned from a prominent talent agency.....]
> 
> I think a little sunlight actually would benefit both the "we don't want people railroaded by some new sheriff without enough procedural protections" and "people deserve to know this stuff so they can make informed decisions" camps. If it's overwrought, we can compare facts to result. If they're protecting the team, ditto.


Why I think it's politics.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

I was going to take level 1&2 coaching classes to ease into the after competition years. There is no way in Hell I would ever get into that cauldron now. I agree with John Magera 100% in respect to his concerns and worries about potential liabilities related to coaching under safe sport. Most of you are saying safe sport is needed to keep our sport scandal free. Since when? How many scandals occurred before safe sport? None that I know of. This is archery folks, it is not gymnastics or swimming where participants are practicing scantily clad. To me, this is just another platform for those who want to shove their way of thinking down my throat and give themselves a platform to be "holier than thou". I hope an overwhelming number of coaches will follow Johns example and back away. Somebody will take notice if there is no one left to teach these young kids. And to those of you saying this is none of your business, that is probably the reason safe sport got enacted in the first place, keep your heads in the sand, ostriches.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

itbeso said:


> And to those of you saying this is none of your business, that is probably the reason safe sport got enacted in the first place, keep your heads in the sand, ostriches.


Nothing personal but.....

How exactly is it my business? How exactly am i supposed to make it my business? What exactly am i supposed to do with the information posted by USA archery? Am i to contact USA archery and demand the info? Am i to contact the suspended persons and demand to know what they were accused of and did and all the facts? 

Am i to get my torch and pitchfork and storm the suspended in a mob? 

How exactly do i make it MY business? I would love to know.

Its easy to post about judging others and other generalizations. I need more facts and specifics before i start lynching people publicly. 

And i do coach in a JOAD club and am always aware of the "dangers" inherent in coaching kids and dealing with parents. And i am ever vigilant to keep the coach kid parent barrier present. 

Chris


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

A recent scandal in Archery GB where a Coach made unwanted advances to an Archer at an international tourney, the real scandal was that Archery GB hushed it up and it only came to light after the Archer quit the sport, at the time she felt blackmailed in that she would lose her squad place if she pursued her complaint. So I can see the need for independent monitoring.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

I'll also add the where I live 17 is not under age, these days girls mature much faster and act, dress and look older than their actual age, so I can see how easy it is for a 22 year old Man can get himself in to big trouble very easily without asking a girls age. I don't know what really went down but you have to be pretty dumb to intentionally have under age sex if you're a high profile public figure.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> Nothing personal but.....
> 
> How exactly is it my business? How exactly am i supposed to make it my business? What exactly am i supposed to do with the information posted by USA archery? Am i to contact USA archery and demand the info? Am i to contact the suspended persons and demand to know what they were accused of and did and all the facts?
> 
> ...





Stephen Morley said:


> A recent scandal in Archery GB where a Coach made unwanted advances to an Archer at an international tourney, the real scandal was that Archery GB hushed it up and it only came to light after the Archer quit the sport, at the time she felt blackmailed in that she would lose her squad place if she pursued her complaint. So I can see the need for independent monitoring.





Stephen Morley said:


> I'll also add the where I live 17 is not under age, these days girls mature much faster and act, dress and look older than their actual age, so I can see how easy it is for a 22 year old Man can get himself in to big trouble very easily without asking a girls age. I don't know what really went down but you have to be pretty dumb to intentionally have under age sex if you're a high profile public figure.


Its posts like these when you need a "Like" or "Agree" button.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

itbeso said:


> I was going to take level 1&2 coaching classes to ease into the after competition years. There is no way in Hell I would ever get into that cauldron now. I agree with John Magera 100% in respect to his concerns and worries about potential liabilities related to coaching under safe sport.


 I've been coaching sports (football, basketball, baseball, and archery for about 17 years, and these have always been concerns. Nothing has changed on this matter period, and these concerns should not be the reason not to get into coaching. The goal of Safesport (at least the old group of videos) is to identify to you as an instructor, what not to do to open yourself to allegations, and to give you tools to possibly identify at risk children who may be dealing with abuse. Whether we like it or not, there are too many children, who are abused; and thus too many adults out there willing to abuse them. Having a program to help prevent said abuse, and providing awareness to coaches and volunteers on necessary boundaries is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. The fact is this is not new, and has been around for at least as long as I have been coaching/volunteering with children.



itbeso said:


> Most of you are saying safe sport is needed to keep our sport scandal free. Since when?


 No, Safesport is needed to help protect children from abuse, and protect coaches/volunteers from potential allegations.



itbeso said:


> How many scandals occurred before safe sport? None that I know of.


 And here is the problem. To believe that before Safesport there wasn't the possibility of coach on student abuse, is...well putting one's head in the sand. There is a reason why we now have programs like Safesport.



itbeso said:


> This is archery folks, it is not gymnastics or swimming where participants are practicing scantily clad. To me, this is just another platform for those who want to shove their way of thinking down my throat and give themselves a platform to be "holier than thou".


 I take it you haven't spent a lot of time with JOAD clubs that has teenagers, especially in the summer. 



itbeso said:


> I hope an overwhelming number of coaches will follow Johns example and back away. Somebody will take notice if there is no one left to teach these young kids.


 God I hope not. That is not what this sport needs. John is right that coaches need to protect themselves, but archery is a great sport to coach, and has a lot of good people in it. Just follow the guidelines provided by Safesport, and you shouldn't have any issues. At least I never have, and hadn't seen any co-coaches who follow those guidelines have any issues either.



itbeso said:


> And to those of you saying this is none of your business, that is probably the reason safe sport got enacted in the first place, keep your heads in the sand, ostriches.


 IMO it really isn't any of my business concerning the two infractions that are being discussed. Unless its within my club or community then no it isn't my business and nor is it yours. If these infractions have merit, then they were taken care of through the suspensions. One would have to assume that if these were serious infractions then law enforcement was notified of the infractions as that is now the law. If the infractions are without merit, then USA Archery and/or Safesport is open to lawsuits by those falsely accused. That is how the system should work.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"(paraphrasing ...) We need SafeSport to prevent abuse and remedy abuse that's already occurred or is ongoing ..." Based upon what? can it be claimed that an online set of guidelines has 'stopped abuse'. Not saying that it hasn't, but I would love to be able to read some statistics showing the volume of abuse that has been remedied or stopped (I suspect those stats don't exist - my point is that I'm going to take the platitudes of SafeSport benefits with a grain of salt ... like feeding chicken soup to a corpse, "it can't hurt", but I'm going to be skeptical of claims of the wonderful resuscitative powers of chicken soup without some hard evidence.

There seems to be a LOT of trust being extended for the SafeSport deliberation committee and its freedom from influence and rug sweeping - I guess this SafeSport bureaucratic assembly must be much more crackerjack and free of politics than most other bureaucratic organizations. Again, not claiming anything, just prefer to be skeptical of any political/bureaucratic org. 

Finally, in one sense I completely agree that I am privy to some of the facts but not all of them; and that it's not really my business, or I'd really like it to be none of my business ... except that as coaches (or parent) we have a pretty big responsibility to make sure that we've done all we can do to steer our young students into safe scenarios. "Well, I'll just trust that a 6-month suspension was the right call, and that there's nothing to worry about after the suspension with your 13year old on a travel team" ... that surface level satisfaction is not going to work for me .... maybe this question "would you be willing to send YOUR 13year old child into a girl scout or boy scout troop travel scenario where the troop leader had been suspended for inappropriate behavior?" I'm going to need more detail about what happened, how often it happened, etc, before I can answer that question satisfactorily, and if I'm not privy to those facts, then my answer will necessarily be "No, I'm not sending my child into that "there's smoke and therefore may be fire" scenario, and Mr and Mrs Parent, I'm not sending your child into that scenario, either." So, if as a coach I'm not now being confronted with that scenario, then I'm happy to not know the details. But if that scenario coes up, then yes I would have to get access to those details before I could in good conscious send my young charge into that scenario. 

Finally, John's point, I think, is that following, to the letter, proper behavior and guidelines (being completely blameless), doesn't necessarily protect you from malicious parties who decide they want to 'get you' and are sly/energetic enough to use the system and insinuation to hammer you to satisfy their own bloodlust. It's risky out there.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Finally, John's point, I think, is that following, to the letter, proper behavior and guidelines (being completely blameless), doesn't necessarily protect you from malicious parties who decide they want to 'get you' and are sly/energetic enough to use the system and insinuation to hammer you to satisfy their own bloodlust. It's risky out there.


Correct.

There are a lot of risks that one assumes when they take on the role of head coach or program leader for a youth archery program. Many people will never have anything to worry about and will be blessed with great kids and parents their whole coaching career. (I enjoyed those things for quite a long time). And those folks will probably say "what's the big deal?" and good for them. But some of today's parents - as Larry says - are out for blood and they have the money and resources to get it if they want. This day and age, anyone assuming the role of program leader or head coach would be crazy to not have personal liability insurance and a decent attorney. 

Programs like the JDT and RA programs, Jr. USAT and Collegiate archery have only encouraged more aggressive competition behind the shooting line than we ever saw before. In many cases parents are just trying to do the best job they can of giving their kids opportunities. The problem is that some people don't care who they go through to get there. I've seen some really good coaches get crapped on by over-aggressive helicopter parents. I know one case where the same parent tried to publicly ruin the reputation of two well-known and highly qualified archery coaches in the span of 3 years. Personally, I've managed to weather four pretty good storms in the past 5 years but this last one has sent me back to port where I plan to remain until the seas calm down. I know I will eventually miss coaching enough that I'll be back. I just have to decide in what capacity, and how to protect myself in the future.

I hope nobody interprets my comments to mean I don't support the goals of SafeSport. I absolutely do and I have some very personal reasons for that. But let's not be naive and think some people won't use it to their advantage or simply for revenge if they think they can. Sadly, those people are out there and it seems increasing in number anymore.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

lksseven said:


> "(paraphrasing ...) We need SafeSport to prevent abuse and remedy abuse that's already occurred or is ongoing ..." Based upon what? can it be claimed that an online set of guidelines has 'stopped abuse'. Not saying that it hasn't, but I would love to be able to read some statistics showing the volume of abuse that has been remedied or stopped (I suspect those stats don't exist - my point is that I'm going to take the platitudes of SafeSport benefits with a grain of salt ... like feeding chicken soup to a corpse, "it can't hurt", but I'm going to be skeptical of claims of the wonderful resuscitative powers of chicken soup without some hard evidence.


 Where SafeSport helps IMO is educating folks in the field. For example looking at the Catholic Church and the abuse scandal we went through not too long ago, the Catholic Church set up guidelines to all dioceses to implement programs similar to SafeSport, and it has helped. Statistically child abuse accusations have dropped significantly within the Church, and the Catholic Church is now considered a model for other organizations on what to do to help protect children from predators. So programs like SafeSport does work. 

There are too many cases where an average adult coach gets too close to a student, especially teenage students; and falls into temptation. Teaching coaches and volunteers how to keep their distance, and establishing guidelines for them to follow to set those boundaries does help. Also teaching the same on how to possibly identify signs of potential abuse does help. We cannot forget that predators of children naturally gravitate to programs that get them around children. Having a program that helps clubs and organizations to develop safe environments helps prevent those predators gaining access to children privately. 

In the past, child abuse occurred just as frequently as today, the difference is that it wasn't something that was considered a possibility to the naive, and it wasn't taken seriously enough. When I was a kid, my public school system's dealt with teacher on student sex abuse by moving the teacher to another school. Now attention has been brought to the subject and that is a good thing overall. 



lksseven said:


> There seems to be a LOT of trust being extended for the SafeSport deliberation committee and its freedom from influence and rug sweeping - I guess this SafeSport bureaucratic assembly must be much more crackerjack and free of politics than most other bureaucratic organizations. Again, not claiming anything, just prefer to be skeptical of any political/bureaucratic org.


 If indeed **** has been suspended, then that is evidence that there isn't any rug sweeping, considering that he is one of USAA's best archers. That is a big hit to the USA Team don't you think?




lksseven said:


> Finally, John's point, I think, is that following, to the letter, proper behavior and guidelines (being completely blameless), doesn't necessarily protect you from malicious parties who decide they want to 'get you' and are sly/energetic enough to use the system and insinuation to hammer you to satisfy their own bloodlust. It's risky out there.


 I agree wholeheartedly that this is an issue. My biggest fear as a coach is being falsely accused, because in this matter you are guilty until proven innocent, and in your community even if you are found innocent, there is always the suspicion that you will have to deal with, to the point that it would be better for you to just move, because in that community you will always carry that with you. Sadly it does happen. But I do think being smart and following many of the guidelines suggested, that it helps protect you from these accusations, maybe not in all cases, but it definitely makes it harder for something to stick.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

You're conflating the trial, verdict, and sentence. When, say, Pistorius or OJ goes on trial for murder, there is a hearing that is open to the public, transcribed or perhaps even visually displayed/recorded, not just someone goes in a closed black box and at the end of the process a jury hands down pithy name, rank, serial number, and sentence at the other end. 

The dirt is still under the rug, you just punished your kid for sweeping it. The Catholic Church could have been understood as tacitly acknowledging a problem when it moved a molesting priest out of an old parish, but there is no public fact-finding and they would drop him in the next parish.

I understand the concerns about professional reputations, ability to work freely, false accusations, whether the labels are too broad and could make minor issues into career killers, etc. To me the best fix for that is more sunlight.

Having thought about it some more, if you have some sort of off-ramp for serious infractions of particular types, it should be carved out precisely and for only the worst stuff harmful to other people. If, say, one of the offenses was consenting people of appropriate age fraternizing on OTC grounds, that sounds like a team rules matter, if anything. I don't think that needs an off ramp into some special judicial body. Team has rule, team enforces rule. Coach gets to decide whether it merits losing the team member for half a year of training. The harassment stuff is closer to the line. I believe in sunlight either way but they perhaps need to break out the rules different and do some parsing of what types/level of activity are necessary to trigger the off-ramp.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

erose said:


> Where SafeSport helps IMO is educating folks in the field. For example looking at the Catholic Church and the abuse scandal we went through not too long ago, the Catholic Church set up guidelines to all dioceses to implement programs similar to SafeSport, and it has helped. Statistically child abuse accusations have dropped significantly within the Church, and the Catholic Church is now considered a model for other organizations on what to do to help protect children from predators. So programs like SafeSport does work.
> 
> There are too many cases where an average adult coach gets too close to a student, especially teenage students; and falls into temptation. Teaching coaches and volunteers how to keep their distance, and establishing guidelines for them to follow to set those boundaries does help. Also teaching the same on how to possibly identify signs of potential abuse does help. We cannot forget that predators of children naturally gravitate to programs that get them around children. Having a program that helps clubs and organizations to develop safe environments helps prevent those predators gaining access to children privately.
> 
> ...


**** scenario is not the object of my concern. Consensual dating involvement that missed a calendar legal threshold by several months I don't think warrants a year suspension - but that's just my opinion.

Agree that safe guards and a 'calling out of what would seem to be common sense precautions and behaviors is a good thing - to that extent, SafeSport efforts are a good thing. But abuse of authority scenarios that receive a slap on the wrist, with the details that prompted the slap kept under wraps - that is unacceptable. If the offense(s) are serious, hiding the details is unfair to the children and parents that find themselves in that purview; if the offense(s) are not serious, then hiding the details is unfair to the coach. Again, not going to send kids under my direction into scenarios that have even a hint of foreboding. I don't think any coach or parent should. And it it shouldn't be made to be difficult for those coaches and parents to be made privy to the details, so they can make responsible informed choices.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I hadn't seen the ***** posts. The age issue if true does kick you over into legal consent questions, and, well, across the line into the "handle as serious" box.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Out of the USA archery postings on the suspensions,

my question was why the other party involved in **** case did not share the suspension if she were an RA and also broke the OTC code of conduct rules. Did she miss the suspension because she was 17? 

not knowing the exact details of what happened hardly lets me have questions, much less answers. 

Chris


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

Stephen Morley said:


> I'll also add the where I live 17 is not under age, these days girls mature much faster and act, dress and look older than their actual age, so I can see how easy it is for a 22 year old Man can get himself in to big trouble very easily without asking a girls age. I don't know what really went down but you have to be pretty dumb to intentionally have under age sex if you're a high profile public figure.


A quick google search shows that in 44 of 50 US states the age of consent is 17 or younger. Even in some of the states where the age is 18 there are close in age exceptions. So for example the age of consent in Florida is 18, but close-in-age exemptions exist. By law, the exception permits a person 23 years of age or younger to engage in legal sexual activity with a minor aged 16 or 17.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Azzurri said:


> You're conflating the trial, verdict, and sentence. When, say, Pistorius or OJ goes on trial for murder, there is a hearing that is open to the public, transcribed or perhaps even visually displayed/recorded, not just someone goes in a closed black box and at the end of the process a jury hands down pithy name, rank, serial number, and sentence at the other end.
> 
> The dirt is still under the rug, you just punished your kid for sweeping it. The Catholic Church could have been understood as tacitly acknowledging a problem when it moved a molesting priest out of an old parish, but there is no public fact-finding and they would drop him in the next parish.
> 
> ...


I think the thing you are missing, is making this public, even when the accused is falsely accused, makes the accused always in the eyes of his/her community suspicious. In accusations of sexual misconduct the accused is always guilty in the eyes of the public, until proven innocent, and then afterwards they are viewed as possibly guilty, but gotten off. IMO it is better to keep these things under wraps in case the accused is innocent, for the sake of reputation. Besides now if one is accused of a serious offense, the organization has to by law report the matter to the proper authorities, anyway.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

lksseven said:


> ***** scenario is not the object of my concern. Consensual dating involvement that missed a calendar legal threshold by several months I don't think warrants a year suspension - but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Agree that safe guards and a 'calling out of what would seem to be common sense precautions and behaviors is a good thing - to that extent, SafeSport efforts are a good thing. But abuse of authority scenarios that receive a slap on the wrist, with the details that prompted the slap kept under wraps - that is unacceptable. If the offense(s) are serious, hiding the details is unfair to the children and parents that find themselves in that purview; if the offense(s) are not serious, then hiding the details is unfair to the coach. Again, not going to send kids under my direction into scenarios that have even a hint of foreboding. I don't think any coach or parent should. And it it shouldn't be made to be difficult for those coaches and parents to be made privy to the details, so they can make responsible informed choices.


If the offense is serious then by law Safesport and/or USA Archery has to report the offense to the proper authorities. If not then they could be liable for litigation. I don't know the full extent of either case, but if the offense was not reported to the legal authorities then the offense was not a serious one, to begin with.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

erose said:


> If the offense is serious then by law Safesport and/or USA Archery has to report the offense to the proper authorities. If not then they could be liable for litigation. I don't know the full extent of either case, but if the offense was not reported to the legal authorities then the offense was not a serious one, to begin with.


That may be. But I wouldn't send kids under my charge into that environment unless I was made privy to the details. At the end of the day, the judgement call of what is acceptable risk for kids under my charge is mine and the parents, and we won't be blindly trusting some a nameless/faceless committee to make the judgement of what was serious and what wasn't.

At the end of the day, it sounds like I'm much less trusting than some of official (and officials) protocol and "strict policy adherence theory" (sorry, but undue influence and shading are facts of life everywhere you look). Telling me that the 1 x 4 board suspended across two paint cans has been certified to support someone of my weight is one thing, and maybe I'll just trust that the official blessing is accurate (small downside). Suspend that board across two 10-story buildings, and I'm gonna need more convincing than just "they looked over the specs and said it would be okay".


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

lksseven said:


> That may be. But I wouldn't send kids under my charge into that environment unless I was made privy to the details. At the end of the day, the judgement call of what is acceptable risk for kids under my charge is mine and the parents, and we won't be blindly trusting some a nameless/faceless committee to make the judgement of what was serious and what wasn't.
> 
> At the end of the day, it sounds like I'm much less trusting than some of official (and officials) protocol and "strict policy adherence theory" (sorry, but undue influence and shading are facts of life everywhere you look). Telling me that the 1 x 4 board suspended across two paint cans has been certified to support someone of my weight is one thing, and maybe I'll just trust that the official blessing is accurate (small downside). Suspend that board across two 10-story buildings, and I'm gonna need more convincing than just "they looked over the specs and said it would be okay".


I understand where you are coming from. Anyway one would hope that if a child was sexually abused by a coach and it was discovered, that it would require the acts of an organization to report the incident. The child's parents should be doing that, or for that matter the volunteer that discovered it. USA Archery or Safesport are not law enforcement agencies, and they should not be the first agency someone should be calling if one suspects sexual misconduct by a coach or older archer. Any parent who decides to rely on a non-law enforcement agency to seek justice for their child, is just plain stupid to begin with.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Do not refer to or use any names, please. Thank you


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I am sorry. I thought the names were public knowledge. Thats about the only fact USA archery made public. 

I did not realize that repeating the names was against ArcheryTalk forum rules. 


Chris


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

lksseven said:


> **** scenario is not the object of my concern. Consensual dating involvement that missed a calendar legal threshold by several months I don't think warrants a year suspension - but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Agree that safe guards and a 'calling out of what would seem to be common sense precautions and behaviors is a good thing - to that extent, SafeSport efforts are a good thing. But abuse of authority scenarios that receive a slap on the wrist, with the details that prompted the slap kept under wraps - that is unacceptable. If the offense(s) are serious, hiding the details is unfair to the children and parents that find themselves in that purview; if the offense(s) are not serious, then hiding the details is unfair to the coach. Again, not going to send kids under my direction into scenarios that have even a hint of foreboding. I don't think any coach or parent should. And it it shouldn't be made to be difficult for those coaches and parents to be made privy to the details, so they can make responsible informed choices.



I agree. The age threshold proximity and young-folks-acting-older is likely why there was no criminal action. The difference may lie in *who* the person was in relation to the accused. It could also be that this was no Safe Sport violation and USAA took action to maintain a squeaky clean image, which could possibly be unfair to the suspended athlete. If I was that athlete and interested in continuing, I would be shopping for another country to shoot for.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Target1, we did not make the names public, USA Archery did. They are published on their website, along with a two-word description of the infraction. We are reacting at least in part to the potential defamation and lack of due process - and how that could be inflicted on us as coaches with just an accusation.

I look at Safe Sport training in the same light as harassment and legal compliance training at work. It is to level-set everyone on what the issues are, are not, and how to handle them (accuser, accused, and bystander). One thing that is currently missing is Safe Sport training for the athletes and parents. That needs to be done too, and it can be softened for kids. It should be mandatory for them too, and include the impacts and consequences of false accusations.

It also makes sense for this to be conducted by a third party to avoid conflict of interest. It can also help protect the organization and the accused from vendettas. It is way better than leaving it up to who-knows-who in some quasi-volunteer organization and hoping for the best.

I think we are reacting strongly to a few aspects of this situation. (1) The result is translucent, not transparent. (2) It is unclear what degree of due process was conducted. (3) We are concerned about the impact of being falsely accused (this should be added as a section in Safe Sport, how to defend yourself from itself). (4) Almost nobody is making a living from this and are in it to help and because we like it, yet now are somehow in the crosshairs. I can understand some saying "the heck with it", trying to help nearly for free and being persecuted for it.

Safe Sport needs to also focus on protecting coaches and instructors. Otherwise feels like a witch hunt or some kind of medieval judicial ordeal.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> One thing that is currently missing is Safe Sport training for the athletes and parents. That needs to be done too, and it can be softened for kids. It should be mandatory for them too, and include the impacts and consequences of false accusations.


Agreed, because right now, SS looks like a useful tool for those who might be willing to trash an athlete or coach's reputation (or worse) to achieve their goal.



> Almost nobody is making a living from this and are in it to help and because we like it, yet now are somehow in the crosshairs. I can understand some saying "the heck with it", trying to help nearly for free and being persecuted for it.


Yup.

Not that the accusation was against me personally, but it was between members of the club I managed. When I called a very experienced coach and judge for advice on how to best handle the matter and he immediately started saying how careful I needed to be because this could potentially be a SS violation... That's when I said I'm out. The he.. if I'm going to volunteer my time and spend my own money traveling to help other people's kids play a sport, only to expose myself to legal action and risk my reputation in the process.

YMMV, but me and my asst. coach didn't like what we saw and took steps to protect ourselves and our families from being sued. I'm sleeping a lot better now, I can assure you. 

See you all on the line someday I hope.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

I was told the other day an Indian Coach was sent home from world youth championships, he hugged a GB female Archer. I thought it was a bit strong as a Coach might do this innocently when they won but I was told this happened behind closed doors and complaint was lodged by GB officials. It could well be totally innocent but very dumb thing to do.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Stephen Morley said:


> I was told the other day an Indian Coach was sent home from world youth championships, he hugged a GB female Archer. I thought it was a bit strong as a Coach might do this innocently when they won but I was told this happened behind closed doors and complaint was lodged by GB officials. It could well be totally innocent but very dumb thing to do.


Moral of the story is just don't hug anyone and when contact may possibly occur make sure to have the proper documentation signatures, consent and video proof to avoid litigation. 

All i ever wanted was to have fun flinging some arrows.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I've not commented and I'm not quite sure what the moral of the story is. It could be, never volunteer because bad stuff could happen. It could be, bad actors are in every endeavor man undertakes. In the end we all decide what enriches our lives and with whom we associate. Trust your instincts, do the right things and let the chips fall where they may.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It could well be totally innocent but very dumb thing to do


See, here's the problem... I am a hugger. I was raised that way. In Texas, we shake a man's hand and we hug our women, and nobody thinks a thing of it unless you don't do those two things, and then we know you're not from 'round here. So when I read stuff like this it just makes me want to walk away. How sad this world has become when you can't even give someone a hug without someone turning it into something bad. That's just awful.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> See, here's the problem... I am a hugger. I was raised that way. In Texas, we shake a man's hand and we hug our women, and nobody thinks a thing of it unless you don't do those two things, and then we know you're not from 'round here. So when I read stuff like this it just makes me want to walk away. How sad this world has become when you can't even give someone a hug without someone turning it into something bad. That's just awful.


TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!! I'm a hugger too! My dad was one of the great huggers of all time. When I read that, it made my blood boil.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

We're dinosaurs Larry. LOL


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

The hugging stuff made me tear up. Several years back a seven year old was sent to the nurse's office with a "stomach ache". I was there, the nurse hadn't arrived. I waited till she did. The child clearly wanted to be hugged and comforted. I'd seen what happens when people are falsely accused. I didn't give in. She never returned. It turned out to be an aneurysm and she passed away that evening.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bolt, that's awful. I'm very sorry.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Thanks Limbwalker. Working with kids for 40 years I've had a few tearjerkers. As you can imagine it's got to be devastating for the parents. While safesport teaches us how to protect ourselves there is going to be a downside. We humans do need to have physical contact especially kids. Midway put it well, "Trust your instincts, do the right thing, and let the chips fall where they may."


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> See, here's the problem... I am a hugger. I was raised that way. In Texas, we shake a man's hand and we hug our women, and nobody thinks a thing of it unless you don't do those two things, and then we know you're not from 'round here. So when I read stuff like this it just makes me want to walk away. How sad this world has become when you can't even give someone a hug without someone turning it into something bad. That's just awful.


I love hugs too....and handshakes and high fives and laughter because To me, all this adds to what I really enjoy about archery. Since I started shooting, i've met some really awesome people and some equally talented coaches. I wouldn't be where I am as a shooter if it weren't for my coach and this drives me to want to give back to the sport to pay it forward too. I think it really comes down to trusting your gut on what may be a bad situation.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

lksseven said:


> "(paraphrasing ...) We need SafeSport to prevent abuse and remedy abuse that's already occurred or is ongoing ..." Based upon what? can it be claimed that an online set of guidelines has 'stopped abuse'. Not saying that it hasn't, but I would love to be able to read some statistics showing the volume of abuse that has been remedied or stopped (I suspect those stats don't exist - my point is that I'm going to take the platitudes of SafeSport benefits with a grain of salt ... like feeding chicken soup to a corpse, "it can't hurt", but I'm going to be skeptical of claims of the wonderful resuscitative powers of chicken soup without some hard evidence.
> 
> There seems to be a LOT of trust being extended for the SafeSport deliberation committee and its freedom from influence and rug sweeping - I guess this SafeSport bureaucratic assembly must be much more crackerjack and free of politics than most other bureaucratic organizations. Again, not claiming anything, just prefer to be skeptical of any political/bureaucratic org.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being more diplomatic than me and for going into more detail about scenarios that could be placed on ones plate. There seems to be too many areas where a persons reputation and freedom can be taken away with careless whispers. Who in their right mind wants that kind of potential grief. Who in their right mind wants to coach under the conditions where you can't give a congratulatory hug, or worse yet, a sympathetic hug. I , personally, think we need to get the people who instituted these rules, out of control of our sport.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Sure sounds good until you have a parent or archer with bad intentions come along and upset that apple cart. I pray it never happens to you or any other program leader. But do you really appreciate the personal liability you have for all the students in your program? Ignorance surely is bliss, and I lived that way for 15 years. But not any longer. And even if you are successful at defending yourself and your club against a bad actor, is all the time and effort and expense really worth it to you personally?
> 
> I guess each of us has to make that decision for themselves. Knowing what I know now, I might never have volunteered to be the head coach for a JOAD program, and just remained an archer only or possibly have given private lessons. When you're the face of the club, eventually you will have some unhappy customers who will blame you for their or their child's shortcomings. And then from there, you can only hope they don't decide to use the "system" against you.


Yup, it's all great until it's aimed at you.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

You guys are scaring me. 
I'm a hugger too.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

I have been reading through this and have mixed feelings. Kids need to be protected. That is a must. That being said, here is my short story.

All of this has reminded me of things I had forgotten. Years ago when My son was on the JDT kicking the crap out of his teammates I was accused of physically and verbally assaulting another teammate at a local indoor tournament. This kid was getting smoked again and he called his dad and told him I grabbed him by the arm and yelled and cursed at him. I guess he wanted and excuse for losing again. Two things saved me. This young man was 15 lanes away from us, and I was with my son and his other coach and friends the entire time. I never even talked to the kid. The other thing was I was not part of the NTS coaching program. There was nothing they could do to me. They could not sanction me. When I said I did not do what I was being accused of doing, they said we weren't there. But I was admonished anyway.

I received a scathing letter from Denise Parker. There was no proof. No witnesses. Completely fabricated. I had people that stated I never walked down to that side of the venue. The thing was USAA and the coaches believed the kid. I literally told them to go F themselves and told the dad to file charges. Parker's letter was completely out of line. Accused = guilty.

Because USAA had nothing they could do to me because I was not part of their club nothing happened to me. I can't say for sure that some people didn't take it out on my son.

I am glad that people at the top can and will be held accountable. If you are a nobody I am sure that a lifetime suspension is not out of the question for the same violation.

On the other hand, if you want to wreck someone's career, there is a way.

I was so glad Denise hand nothing to take from me. My son is a grown man now. I don't hardly ever even go to watch him shoot anymore. So many bad feelings.

Whether you know me, or you think you know me. Like me or hate me. Being falsely accused is unacceptable.

These suspensions will probably never really be forgotten. I like both of these men. I wish them the best. I hope for healing for the other parties. I hope everyone can move past all of this.



Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great post Gary.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Great post Gary.


Thanks John.

The funny thing. I think some of the coaches in the program wanted it to be true. There are many many ways to mess with an archer. Once the mind goes off track, the shooting follows. I don't think Matt has been the same as back before then, although he has moved past the negative memories. He loves archery more than ever now. I still out.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've seen a lot of really good coaches, parents and archers - the ones we SHOULD be keeping in the sport - leave because of the politics and selfish people. It's very sad. 

Thankfully, I was 33 and shot archery for most of those years before I ever played target archery, so it's easy for me to remember a time when it was just simple bows and arrows and having fun. Easy for me to go back to that too, esp. during hunting season! As much as I enjoy good healthy competition, some people just don't understand when the competition starts and more importantly, when it ends.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm getting more cynical as this thread progresses.

I've seen and been part of some pretty bad injustices (IMO) in archery. But, deep down I wanted to believe everyone is a good person.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

XForce Girl said:


> I'm getting more cynical as this thread progresses.
> 
> I've seen and been part of some pretty bad injustices (IMO) in archery. But, deep down I wanted to believe everyone is a good person.


Me too X-force. Me too. I was in denial for quite a long time as a JOAD leader but after the fourth time I was burned by people I had invested a tremendous amount of time in... Even I could no longer ignore it. I love archery still, but I also love a lot of other things that I haven't spent much time doing since I was so involved in this sport. And there are lots of ways to help kids that don't subject me to the stress and potential liability that being a USArchery program leader does.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> We're dinosaurs Larry. LOL


Uh oh, looks like some hugging and touching going on at World Championships. Guess the hugger nazis will be issuing suspensions and subpoenas forthwith.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea but Larry, that's two dudes so it's cool. Especially nowdays. LOL


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

After reading the safe sport guidelines, it pretty apparent that there is many holes that need to be covered, first just an accusation becomes public, you may not even know about it as it doesn't need to come from the NSO. with the accusation the evidence become nearly irrelevant, with that the Safe Sport org isn't immune from being sued itself which may be your only recourse for clearing your name, a case being dropped doesn't clear your name


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

I had time to turn on the TV last night. While flipping channels I stopped for a couple of minutes on the Olympic Channel. They were showing an Ilalian squad of synchronized swimmers and something happened to anguish one of them. What immediately caught my ear was the announcer saying, " She needs a hug from a teammate or coach." The she got one and went on to compete. LOL


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Yea but Larry, that's two dudes so it's cool. Especially nowdays. LOL


And note that there is no body contact - SafeSport approves.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Boltsmyth said:


> I had time to turn on the TV last night. While flipping channels I stopped for a couple of minutes on the Olympic Channel. They were showing an Ilalian squad of synchronized swimmers and something happened to anguish one of them. What immediately caught my ear was the announcer saying, " She needs a hug from a teammate or coach." The she got one and went on to compete. LOL


Bzzzt - violation! Those Italians must be getting away with things!

I am joking but I think we are all are reacting because this can easily be taken too far and it spooks us as coaches, and is a bit of a poke in the eye for those who do it for little or no compensation and lots of personal time. I do think SafeSport training should also be required of archers and parents, and include a section on the devastating effects and consequences of false accusations.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

j.conner said:


> I do think SafeSport training should also be required of archers and parents, and include a section on the devastating effects and consequences of false accusations.


If I remember right when I did the SafeSport training, there is a version for parents. Maybe one for athletes too? It would be good for an athlete to be able to recognize signs that a team mate is being groomed or abused or bullied, and know what to do about it.


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Me too X-force. Me too. I was in denial for quite a long time as a JOAD leader but after the fourth time I was burned by people I had invested a tremendous amount of time in... Even I could no longer ignore it. I love archery still, but I also love a lot of other things that I haven't spent much time doing since I was so involved in this sport. And there are lots of ways to help kids that don't subject me to the stress and potential liability that being a USArchery program leader does.


I find this all to be very scary indeed. About 25 years ago I worked for a company that hired a woman (no gender bias intended here) without doing a reasonable resume/reference check. HAD they done so, they would have known that not only was she unqualified but that she was also dishonest and had sued or threatened to sue her prior 5 employers for sexual harassment. Unfortunately I became her next target through no fault of my own. Fortunately one of the partners in the company felt strongly about not giving in to terrorists and since they were confident that none of the allegations were true they spent a whopping sum of money to fight the case. While we were in depositions we found out that subsequent to firing her she had taken another job and had already received a settlement on the same sort of claims. For over a year I had to live with this living hell including having my mother discover the whole thing in the newspaper. Our attorneys told us a pile of horror stories about similar cases including one middle eastern woman who was accused by another woman and subsequently was snubbed by her whole family. While I am sensitive to people who are subjected to inappropriate behavior, I also know that some number of the people accused did nothing wrong and have had their lives turned upside down to never be the same again.

I cannot imagine what it would be like to be a teacher - particularly a high school teacher where teenagers with a predisposition to lash out might accuse you at any moment and you have your life and career ruined. That could easily happen to a a coach.

*Unfortunately the press never prints a banner headline that says "Person accused of horrible stuff last month found to actually be a totally innocent victim today"
*
Stepping off my soap box.........


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The trouble is that people can falsely accuse or sue anyone for anything, and the risk to them is negligible. 

For a lot of years as a JOAD coach and program leader, I was very impatient and critical of veteran archers and archery parents who refused to get involved and donate their time to coach or run events or run a club. Now I realize that at least for some of them, it was a choice they made to reduce their exposure and liability and protect themselves and their families. Of course, some are still just lazy and don't care about anyone else. LOL 

I sure hope my attitude about all this changes someday. But for now, I just don't have an appetite for anything USArchery.


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> The trouble is that people can falsely accuse or sue anyone for anything, and the risk to them is negligible.
> 
> For a lot of years as a JOAD coach and program leader, I was very impatient and critical of veteran archers and archery parents who refused to get involved and donate their time to coach or run events or run a club. Now I realize that at least for some of them, it was a choice they made to reduce their exposure and liability and protect themselves and their families. Of course, some are still just lazy and don't care about anyone else. LOL
> 
> I sure hope my attitude about all this changes someday. But for now, I just don't have an appetite for anything USArchery.


That is, unfortunately, the truth. When it became evident that the woman who made accusations against me was a fraud I contacted the county prosecutor. While he was sympathetic, he told me (no kidding) "If I prosecuted everyone who lied in court I would have no time to chase criminals". Is THAT scary or what? Anyone can make accusations against you and the likelihood that there are any consequences for them if they are caught is pretty much zero.

BTW - You are not being excessively cynical - most of those people WERE just too lazy and were not considering their exposure other than exposing themselves to work.

I am an officer of a volunteer fire department. Our insurance policy includes coverage in case an officer of the department is sued. Perhaps if USAA wants to keep volunteer coaches doing what they are needed to do they might consider adding that sort of coverage to the liability insurance.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I did a search for "litigious society vs loser pays" and The Economist has an interesting editorial suggesting we are not so much a litigious society (by the numbers) as we are a society who lives in fear of litigation. Imho, compared to actual incidents, fear mongering is what will kill the sport. 

https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/01/risk-and-litigation


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Seattlepop said:


> I did a search for "litigious society vs loser pays" and The Economist has an interesting editorial suggesting we are not so much a litigious society (by the numbers) as we are a society who lives in fear of litigation. Imho, compared to actual incidents, fear mongering is what will kill the sport.
> 
> https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/01/risk-and-litigation


I disagree. Most archery coaches don't derive their primary income from the sport. Is it worth the risk? After my run in with a professional litigant I didn't have
the choice but to go back to work since I still have bills to pay AND (here is a big point) my employer coughed up nearly 7 figures to defend themselves and
my reputation. USAA pretty much hung people out to dry. I doubt the "investigation" was more than a kangaroo court. In the minds of the public there is no real distinction between improper behavior or violating the coaching code of ethics and being some sort of pervert. You are presumed guilty if someone accuses you. God help you if the press gets hold
of it because this type of "inappropriate behavior" is serious ratings fodder.

Am I going to stop coaching? No. I enjoy it too much and have been doing it for too long but I am not going to entertain any significant risk for the sake of toxophily.
If I was to start over I don't know if I would bother getting into coaching given the environment today.

You are however going in the right direction. Frivolous litigation and the fear of it are driving our society down the tubes. Every morning and evening I am besieged with
commercials for ambulance chasing lawyers looking for accident victims and people who had a bad reaction to drugs. We should stop fearing litigation and we should
do something to make sure that those who abuse the system are punished. THAT will save a lot more than just archery.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rkumetz, that's just a poorly disguised shot at me by gt's bff. 

And you are 100% correct. Those of us who aren't "in the business" simply cannot afford to take the risk. There is personal liability insurance out there, but why should I pay for that when I'm already giving USArchery so much of my time and money?

I won't stop coaching either. But I don't have to be a target because I'm the leader of a kid's sports program. 

People need to understand this is not about the kids. I love helping kids and always will. This is about today's parents living through their kids and what they will do to use them to satisfy their own goals, or "protect" them from imagined wrongs.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Thirty years ago I couldn't wait to get out of being a scout leader for fear of this same thing. On camping trips in the winter we made the boys change out of their wet, sweaty underwear into dry underwear before climbing into the sleeping bag. Boy, would that raise eyebrows today.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

reddogge, I didn't think we had boy scouts anymore. Just "scouts" and girl scouts. LOL

At least I'm glad we can provide some amusement for the rest of the world.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> rkumetz, *that's just a poorly disguised shot at me* by gt's bff.
> 
> And you are 100% correct. Those of us who aren't "in the business" simply cannot afford to take the risk. There is personal liability insurance out there, but why should I pay for that when I'm already giving USArchery so much of my time and money?
> 
> ...


My shots are never poorly disguised lol. My comment was directed at the over-all tone of this thread. My apologies if that wasn't apparent.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Wow, I am becoming convinced that it is not worth working with children. Imagine being retired and on a fixed income, then having a threat that that comes from doing something good and financially voluntary. Until there is SafeSport protection against false accusation and that is specifically covered by USA Archery liability insurance, It is likely not worth the risk.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Seattlepop said:


> My shots are never poorly disguised lol. My comment was directed at the over-all tone of this thread. My apologies if that wasn't apparent.


LOL, true.

I'm as sorry as anyone that we're in this position. Running JOAD clubs in Illinois and in Texas has been a big part of my life for the past 15 years. Really, like a 2nd job for that time, and one that I usually enjoyed a great deal. Unfortunately, JOAD parents have ruined that for me. I will miss working with the kids. I've never blamed a kid for any of the issues I've had to deal with. But parents these days are out of control. 

Litigation is like a form of terrorism. You are correct that the fear of litigation is worse than the actual litigation. But I've been fighting the terrorists for 15 years and it's time for someone else to put on the flak jacket and take some fire. Just like the locals have to stand up and fight for themselves, it's time for more JOAD parents to stand up and get involved in coaching and running their clubs. I am fortunate to have had a great family take over our club and I leave it in good hands.


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

Limbwalker,

Having followed this thread very closely, I'd be curious of your thoughts on whether just basic instruction of students, (ie, non-JOAD, but rather those just wanting to start out and learn) would shield you more adequately from the concerns of false accusation? (I know there's 'always a chance'... but would it be minimized?)

Very relevant to my personal interests right now....

Thanks,
E.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

As you could expect, I agonized over my decision to step away from running our JOAD club. It has been a huge part of my life and I have invested so much in the club and the individual kids and families. But it's time. I was burned out a few years ago and need a good long break from all of it.

Thinking about this specific issue of liability and litigation, I think it's much more likely for a higher level coach to be drawn into false accusations than a lower level coach. Here's why I say this - because kids and their parents who are new to the sport really don't have any expectations yet. They are just having fun and everything is usually great so long as they are learning in a positive environment. The problems I've had always begin when the kids start to become competitive at the state and national level. Many parents just cannot handle seeing little sally or billy get beat at a "big" event. Many more become obsessed with titles like "state champion" or "national champion" or "jr. USAT" or "JDT" and they start pressing. They start pushing their kid and/or the coach to do more so they can have more photos and stories to post on FB to impress their friends and family. The main offenders are all about titles and status and the potential for sponsorships or scholarships or acceptance to universities for their kids based on those "achievements." IOW - they have completely lost sight of the fact that this is simply a game that we play for fun. 

It's about that time that many of our kids - most of whom are not athletes - start to struggle with how hard they are willing to work to continue improving. A lot of JOAD kids plateau after 2-3 years and they have to work very hard to improve. So the kids start to struggle a little, get busy with other activities, the parents begin to wonder why their child isn't continuing to advance and question why they are spending so much money on equipment and travel, taking the kid out of school, etc. and then the atmosphere is ripe for conflict.

So to answer your question, yes, I do think that just teaching basic instruction (L1 or L2 instructor, for example) will help a coach avoid the most aggressive and thereby litigious parents.

Now, if someone is just a pervert or a bully then there is no level they should be coaching at and they should get everything they deserve.

And I realize I'm talking about a "worst case scenario" here with probably 0.1% of JOAD parents, but all it takes is one. Four times now I've been through a real mess with the parents of an archer. Smarter people would have stepped away after the first or second episode. LOL 

I know several full-time coaches who have dealt with everything I have and then some. I feel for them, but then again they are making a living coaching so that's part of earning their paycheck IMO. If they are smart, they are paying for personal liability insurance as part of their business. I just refuse to pay for personal liability insurance (not to mention the time involved) to defend myself for a job I volunteer to do. And without it, I'm putting my family at risk.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A quick follow-up story just to give one real-world example... (I'm sure a lot of veteran JOAD coaches have many more stories)

Several years ago I was approached by the mother of a very talented local archer who shot OR. I knew her previous coach very well and he is a very well known and competent coach who runs a successful coaching business. This parent had gotten to know me because our daughters were shooting in the same division, and she casually asked me after we first met, and after discovering that I was an Olympian, if I also coached. I could tell where that was headed and sure enough a few months later after a disappointing finish by her daughter, she asked me if I would consider coaching her. 

Like an idiot, I agreed without checking with her previous coach. 

Everything was fine for a year or more. But then this young lady (who had won multiple "national championships" as a Bowman and Cub) began to struggle once again. The trouble is she had target panic and she would not admit it. Neither would her mother. Without admitting to the issue and working to overcome it, we were at a dead end and I told them that. What followed was the most blistering email I've ever received from a JOAD parent, and this mother copied all the other parents in our club in an attempt to basically burn down our club. She accused me of all sorts of ridiculous things because her daughter was no longer winning, despite the fact that she and her daughter and everyone else knew what the problem was.

Eventually I learned that this same mother had publicly humiliated their last coach at a major local event, and that was why she came to me. Had I known the details of that event, I would have never agreed to take her kid. Lesson learned.

Anyone who met this woman would have believed she was the nicest person on the planet. She was a master at appearances, we all discovered, and nobody in our club saw it coming. So just because you think everything is going great and everyone is getting along, that doesn't mean you don't have a land mine laying around. It just means you haven't stepped in the right spot yet. And maybe you never will. Who knows. I hope you never do.

Archery as you know is very much a head game and is a very small sport. Relationships between coaches, archers and parents often become very personal at the higher levels. There is a big investment made by all three parties. And because of this, when things start to go South, it's pretty easy for a parent to blame the coach for the simple reason that they (the parent) don't want to accept the fact that their kid just isn't working hard enough or isn't talented enough or whatever. A lot of today's parents would rather get angry at someone who has volunteered their time to help their child, than to risk "damaging" their relationship with their kid. Unfortunately, the lesson that teaches the kid long term (don't take responsibility, blame other people for your shortcomings) is more damaging than anything else.


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you, Limbwalker, for the excellent posts.

Your experience is invaluable, and will certainly give me guidance in my future journey. 

Cheers,
E.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

"If they are smart, they are paying for personal liability insurance..."

Wow, I think I had better go back and read those USArchery insurance papers. I assumed that we were covered but now thinking about it is USArchery off the hook because they have "educated us" with Safesport? Is it in USArchery's interest to distance themselves from a coach accused than to support them? Uh Oh...


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Boltsmyth said:


> "If they are smart, they are paying for personal liability insurance..."
> 
> Wow, I think I had better go back and read those USArchery insurance papers. I assumed that we were covered but now thinking about it is USArchery off the hook because they have "educated us" with Safesport? Is it in USArchery's interest to distance themselves from a coach accused than to support them? Uh Oh...


Always remember what happens when you ass u me! The stakes are way too high too take chances.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> but now thinking about it is USArchery off the hook because they have "educated us" with Safesport? Is it in USArchery's interest to distance themselves from a coach accused than to support them? Uh Oh...


ding, ding, ding...

I've been through far too many "trainings" in my profession to recognize that for anything other than what it was. 

Not saying there is anything wrong with the message. It is of course correct. But the fact that we are required to take it is because an attorney somewhere advised USArchery that it was in their best interest to reduce their liability to the organization. A lot of organizations do business this way, including my own. By "training" their employees, they are putting the onus on the individual and taking it off the organization.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ....................................................... when things start to go South, it's pretty easy for a parent to blame the coach* for the simple reason that they (the parent) don't want to accept the fact that their kid just isn't working hard enough or isn't talented enough or whatever.* A lot of today's parents would rather get angry at someone who has volunteered their time to help their child, than to risk "damaging" their relationship with their kid....................


Faced many time this situation in > 30 years of coaching, and facing it in these days too. But after some really bad experiences, I became very cynical and at the first sign of problems with parents, I make the subjects look for help sooner in other clubs. In any case, there are always other young people who deserve pending help.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> ding, ding, ding...
> 
> I've been through far too many "trainings" in my profession to recognize that for anything other than what it was.
> 
> Not saying there is anything wrong with the message. It is of course correct. But the fact that we are required to take it is because an attorney somewhere advised USArchery that it was in their best interest to reduce their liability to the organization. A lot of organizations do business this way, including my own. By "training" their employees, they are putting the onus on the individual and taking it off the organization.


Yes indeed, this is about indemnifying USAA. Just like the annual mandatory legal and ethical compliance training many must do in corporate America, it is about protecting the company by making all employees view a webinar and pass a test proving that they know the rules. Ditto the harassment training at work, it is about protecting the company.

I was also surprised to see USAA post the suspensions themselves. I would have SafeSport post the suspensions and direct any inquiries or contestations to them, so USAA can abstract themselves further away. That is how it rolls these days. For example, companies don't give employment references any more, they just confirm dates/titles/pay and won't risk saying anything negative. You can only tell a bad employee by reference check via faint praise. USAA should do likewise and not comment on any employee matters, past or present, unless it is positive or a conviction.

The terrible thing is that this is can easily turn into a witch hunt, where the result of accusation is as bad as conviction. It is looking more like a return to medieval trial by ordeal and judicium Dei.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> Faced many time this situation in > 30 years of coaching, and facing it in these days too. But after some really bad experiences, I became very cynical and at the first sign of problems with parents, I make the subjects look for help sooner in other clubs. In any case, there are always other young people who deserve pending help.


Very interesting that you have a similar situation in Italy, Vittorio. I think your approach is a good one - dismiss students at the first signs of trouble. I like the idea of running a program in 4 week increments and not inviting/allowing the return of any potentially troublesome ones. I have dismissed a few students with "sorry, I am unable to meet your needs".


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Elmosaurus said:


> Limbwalker,
> 
> Having followed this thread very closely, I'd be curious of your thoughts on whether just basic instruction of students, (ie, non-JOAD, but rather those just wanting to start out and learn) would shield you more adequately from the concerns of false accusation? (I know there's 'always a chance'... but would it be minimized?)
> 
> ...


I teach a good bit of beginners at a couple of local shops. I always make sure the parents are close (paying attention is optional) if the shooter is under 18. I never touch a minor and only rarely put a hand on an adult and then only after I get their permission.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I think your approach is a good one - dismiss students at the first signs of trouble.


For a personal coach, this is simple enough. However, if you are a JOAD program leader, how are you expected to handle this? I mean, define "trouble" when it comes to overaggressive parents. 

In my situation, telling the family to find another club would surely have resulted in a suit and they would have claimed they were being retaliated against or discriminated against or something along those lines. 

The advice I got was "you are free to run your club how you wish" but if I as a program leader release a student because I don't want to deal with the parents anymore, myself and my club will be liable, not USArchery. 

I've never had a student that I couldn't handle. Sure, some are lazy and some are disruptive and some are just frustrating, but I can deal with all that. What's pushing me out of the game is the bad parents. If I only ever had to deal with the kids, I'd be happy to continue running a club.

I think my wife - a High School science teacher - would say the exact same thing. Too many of today's parents are ruining the jobs of those who volunteer to help their kids. 

My approach these days is, if you want what's best for your kid then pull up your boots and go work for it yourself. That's what I did. I learned target archery and became a JOAD coach to help my kids. My wife started a High School swim team from scratch so our daughter and her friends could swim in high school. My message to the overaggressive parents of today is quit working so much and volunteer more if you are truly concerned about your kid's best interest. Otherwise, sit down, shut up and support your kid's coach.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

SHPoet said:


> I teach a good bit of beginners at a couple of local shops. I always make sure the parents are close (paying attention is optional) if the shooter is under 18. I never touch a minor and only rarely put a hand on an adult and then only after I get their permission.


So we kinda have two discussions going on here. One is about physical and verbal harassment and abuse, and the other is about the abuse of the system by falsely accusing coaches or other archers with no consequences.

I agree that your approach SHPoet is surely the safest. Not my style of coaching, as I'm much more "hands-on" but probably the smartest approach this day and age. I could eventually learn to be more "hands off" if I had to although I'd probably still screw up and hug an archer when they won or when they were having a bad day. 

The other problem - having to deal with overaggressive parents and the occasional archer who are willing to sue or falsely accuse someone... I have no clue how to deal with that, so I'm out. Juice ain't worth the squeeze to me.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

j.conner said:


> Wow, I am becoming convinced that it is not worth working with children. Imagine being retired and on a fixed income, then having a threat that that comes from doing something good and financially voluntary. Until there is SafeSport protection against false accusation and that is specifically covered by USA Archery liability insurance, It is likely not worth the risk.


I do believe that this is covered in the liability insurance provided by USA Archery unless this has changed recently.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

erose said:


> I do believe that this is covered in the liability insurance provided by USA Archery unless this has changed recently.


Insurance has limits. 

General Liability Limits
Each Occurrence: $1,000,000
General Aggregate (per event): $3,000,000
Personal and Advertising Injury: $1,000,000
Products/Completed Operations Aggregate: $3,000,000
Damage to Premises Rented to You: $1,000,000
Participant Legal Liability: INCLUDED
Medical Expense (any one person): EXCLUDED
Abuse-Molestation Each Occurrence: $1,000,000
Abuse-Molestation Aggregate: $1,000,000

It mentions nothing about attorney fees.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One of the problems with this sport is that it's a small market and our clubs are typically very few and far between. So, for example, if a parent doesn't like the coach or the way a team is run or the opportunities their child is or isn't getting on say, a traveling baseball team, then typically they have options. Particularly in a larger metro area. They can take their kid and find a better fit for them. 

That's just not a realistic option with JOAD. And because there are so few programs and even fewer qualified coaches above a certain level, it sort of forces the issue when you have unhappy parents. In many other sports, they would just leave on their own. In archery, we kinda get "stuck" with them.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Look for provisions on duty to defend, indemnify, defense costs. Sometimes defense costs are a subset of liability limits. We will cover $1 million but that limit is drawn down by defense costs also. Defense costs are defined as......etc. 

It may not be included but often they cover it, if anything, out of self interest. Lawyers are better prepared to find the bad facts for their case and to reduce and/or negotiate down everyone's exposure, including the insurance company's. [Lawyer also can double as coverage counsel if the insurance company tries to avoid doing its part. My experience you often end up fighting both the opponent and your own insurance company.]


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Then there is the otherside of the equation.

Whether the accusation is real, false, or just a misunderstanding, etc, then there comes the courts. The courts tends to be extremely hypersensitive to victims, that they tend to side with the plaintive and dismiss what ever the defendant brings in as evidence. Accusations from the plaintive tends to outweigh facts from the defense side of things. I had a friend that just went through a related situation. When it came to court last month, the judge would not let any of his witnesses testify in his defense. His attorney repeatedly showed her lies from her own facebook posts. He was only allowed to answer yes or no questions, and she got to talk all she wanted. The judge decided in her favor. It was like the judge already decided the outcome before the case started and would listen to any evidence contrary to his decision.

We tend to think that once something actually reaches a court that the truth will come out. That isn't the reality. Courts tend to be hypersensitive to apparent victim. That is what makes all of this even more troubling. One can be totally innocent, but the courts can still find you guilty. In the area of abuse against women and minors, one is often presumed guilty, and not allowed to prove innocence.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

More proof of our modern victim-driven society. Heck, even right-wing conservatives are claiming to be victims these days when the statues of their heroes are taken down. LOL


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> More proof of our modern victim-driven society. Heck, even right-wing conservatives are claiming to be victims these days when the statues of their heroes are taken down. LOL


As a right wing conservative myself, I don't much care, especially considering the statues are of men who are all Democrats.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

"We tend to think that once something actually reaches a court that the truth will come out. That isn't the reality."

Yes just think of the case that started it all... the McMartin Preschool case.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Good memory, thanks for sharing! That was indeed quite a case - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

For those of you young enough not to remember it, it is well worth reading about. It uncovered all kinds of problems with child testimony and hysteria driven by accusation.


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## toxoph (Mar 24, 2005)

I only vaguely remember it. Heres the main thing to take away from it which is relative to this thread;

_ In 2005, one of the children (as an adult) retracted the allegations of abuse.[16][34]

Never did anyone do anything to me, and I never saw them doing anything. I said a lot of things that didn't happen. I lied. … Anytime I would give them an answer that they didn't like, they would ask again and encourage me to give them the answer they were looking for. … I felt uncomfortable and a little ashamed that I was being dishonest. But at the same time, being the type of person I was, whatever my parents wanted me to do, I would do. _


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I remember that case. It was a modern day Salem Witch Hunt and it was scary how far along it got. The one guy was held in prison for about 5 years having never been convicted of any wrong doing. The main parent accuser was a mental nutcase and died of acholism as the trial began. 

The porsecutors were running for re-election, two more were planning a movie and book deal on the case, etc. it was a perfect storm of bad and even after it was over, the stigma survived. They tore that building down, and the business was ruined forever. And their reputations.

Even today, there are still people convinced it happened. Some kids said they saw flying people and they were magically transported to places all over the world to be abused. And people believed. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Never underestimate the influence a parent can have on what their child says. Even if it's just because it's what the kid "thinks" their parent wants them to say. 

Like I said, I've never had a bad kid as a student. They were all just doing what their parents told them to do or were just following their example.

The four most troublesome episodes I had to endure as a JOAD coach were all directly caused by helicopter parents who were nice to me to my face, but behind my back were criticizing me in front of their kids and other parents. Eventually the truth comes out, and you gotta deal with it. I still feel very sorry for all four of those kids.


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