# Relax "and" pull the wheels off???



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

We continually hear that you need to relax as many muscles as possible to make a nice smooth shot. We also continually hear that you need an aggressive shot... pull the wheels off the bow and the like. This can seem contradictory and has been an issue for me.. The more aggressive my shot the more muscle I use which tends to remove any notion of a relaxed shot. Does anyone have a good explanation of how these things can work together?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

There is a dynamic pressure between my bow handle and my string. If I push to much it increases if I pull back into the stops too hard it increases. I cannot vary this dynamic pressure between the handle and the string buy more than 5%. any more than that and arrow spray starts to happen. Relax is the totally wrong word to use, if I relax, I collapse and that isn't good. Pull the wheels off the bow is the wrong thing for me to do, as this increases my dynamic pressure and arrows spray all around the 10 ring happens. So, I work on finding My optimum pressure between my bow handle and my string and use expansion through the shot to activate my hinge.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

EPLC said:


> We continually hear that you need to relax as many muscles as possible to make a nice smooth shot. We also continually hear that you need an aggressive shot... pull the wheels off the bow and the like. This can seem contradictory and has been an issue for me.. The more aggressive my shot the more muscle I use which tends to remove any notion of a relaxed shot. Does anyone have a good explanation of how these things can work together?


Yes.

So,
let's try my PUSH YOUR ELBOW through the WALL exercise.

So,
since you are shooting left handed these days,
ASSUME da position,
with no bow in your hands.

Perpendicular to a wall,
and your LEFT elbow touching the wall,
in a PRETEND full draw position.

So,
we are going to GET you USED to the FEEL of a RELAXED..and AGGRESSIVE shot at the SAME time.

So,
FIRST your RELEASE half of your body
the LEFT forearm in the PRETEND full draw position.

PUSH the elbow into the WALL, with say 5 pounds of pressure.
MAKE a fist with the LEFT HAND
and SQUEEZE your FIST HARD, SQUEEZING SOOOOOOO HARD that your forearm is shaking.

When the FINGERS SQUEEZE HARD, the forearm muscles MUST be LOADED, IN TENSION, WORKING, STRESSED.
So, hold that FIST, SQUEEZE HARD for say 15 seconds
WHILE pushing the LEFT ELBOW (release side elbow) INTO THE WALL.

GETTING tired?

NOW,
after you hit the 15 second mark,
completely relax the fist,
the fingers DROOP
naturally curled, 
fingers have ALL the tension dRAINING out your finger tips
the WRIST drops.....

wHiLE YOU CONTINUE TO PUSH your elbow THROUGH the wall.
HOLD that for say 15 minutes.

I'm exaggerating, but you GET THE IDEA.

YOu will FEEL the back muscles working,
so you have the YIN YANG thang going on...
the

PUSH your elbow AGGRESSIVELY into the wall,
but with the RELAXED forearm muscles
the RELEASE fingers NATURALLY curled around your PRETEND release handle...

with JUST BARELY enough tension around the HANDLE
the FINGERS CURLED around the handle
but the FOREARM VERY VERY relaxed.

This is the RELAXED (forearm) with the AGGRESSIVE (ELBOW/back muscles)
pushing the elbow through the WALL....(PRETEND).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

EPLC said:


> We continually hear that you need to relax as many muscles as possible to make a nice smooth shot. We also continually hear that you need an aggressive shot... pull the wheels off the bow and the like. This can seem contradictory and has been an issue for me.. The more aggressive my shot the more muscle I use which tends to remove any notion of a relaxed shot. Does anyone have a good explanation of how these things can work together?


RIPPING the bow in HALF?

Well,
not really.

LIke Bees says,
it is a FINE BALANCE.

SO,
if you stand like THIS....
the RELAXED but AGGRESSIVE shot is IMPOSSIBLE.



THE LEFT shoulder joint,
with THIS angle between the bow arm and the chest
is an UNSTABLE truss.

SAME shooter,
the LEFT shoulder joint (bow arm side)
with THIS NEW angle between the bow arm and the chest
is a MUCH MORE STABLE, RELAXED truss.




So,
with THIS POSTURE...or something similar



with the RELEASE forearm (tensor muscles) relaxed,
with the FINGERS curled around the handle with MINIMAL tension across the back of the hand, a CLAW

with the ELBOW AGGRESSIVELY pulling say 2-5 POUNDS HEAVIER than holding weight...

with the BOW ARM (forearm RELAXED)
with the BOW ARM WRIST (completely relaxed)
with the BOW ARM THUMB MUSCLE (thenar eminence completely relaxed...bow grip sinking into the thumb muscle)
with near ZERO bend in the bow arm elbow




THE BOW arm relies on the ALIGNMENT of the bow arm BONES
to provide the FRAMEWORK for an AGGRESSIVE, but RELAXED bow arm RESISTANCE
to prevent the bow riser from SLAMMING into your FACE.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

EPLC said:


> We continually hear that you need to relax as many muscles as possible to make a nice smooth shot. We also continually hear that you need an aggressive shot... pull the wheels off the bow and the like. This can seem contradictory and has been an issue for me.. The more aggressive my shot the more muscle I use which tends to remove any notion of a relaxed shot. Does anyone have a good explanation of how these things can work together?


So,
RELAX "and" PULL the WHEELS off...

the PROOF is in the pudding,
namely
LOOK at the FOLLOW through reaction for the RELEASE elbow
and
LOOK at the FOLLOW through reaction for the RELAXED BOW HAND WRIST.

If the WRIST is NOT relaxed, there will be ZERO bow hand wrist follow through, AFTER the shot.

OBserve.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

IT all comes back to Finding proper Draw Length so you can get body ALIGNMENT right for a good strong shot


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

EPLC said:


> We continually hear that you need to relax as many muscles as possible to make a nice smooth shot. We also continually hear that you need an aggressive shot... pull the wheels off the bow and the like. This can seem contradictory and has been an issue for me.. The more aggressive my shot the more muscle I use which tends to remove any notion of a relaxed shot. Does anyone have a good explanation of how these things can work together?


Watch for a PM.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bees said:


> There is a dynamic pressure between my bow handle and my string. If I push to much it increases if I pull back into the stops too hard it increases. I cannot vary this dynamic pressure between the handle and the string buy more than 5%. any more than that and arrow spray starts to happen. Relax is the totally wrong word to use, if I relax, I collapse and that isn't good. Pull the wheels off the bow is the wrong thing for me to do, as this increases my dynamic pressure and arrows spray all around the 10 ring happens. So, I work on finding My optimum pressure between my bow handle and my string and use expansion through the shot to activate my hinge.


Like Bees, relaxed is the wrong word that gets used a lot. Obviously we can't be relaxed holding a bow and holding at full draw. "Bow fit" allows us to "feel right in the world" holding at full draw. Bow weight...."fit" allows it to be "neutralized" somewhat, I think a word to be used.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Picture was driving me nuts. That guy in the back ground looked to have the longest fingers I ever saw  Had to look good to see that it was something on the wall.

That and he was taking forever to draw compared the Shooter....Shooter pictured, release hand coming back, bow hand straightening and that guy in the ain't drawed 3 inches....


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Leave it to you to notice the form flaw nice catch.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Lazarus said:


> Watch for a PM.


Listening....


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Thanks to all that have responded (either here or via PM) so far. As mentioned above if I pull too hard I spray, if I relax I collapse. Finding the correct balance is going to require some undoing on my part as I've acquired some bad habits... One of those bad habits has manifested itself in my index finger. By trying to pull too hard I have had to exert a lot of pressure on the index to keep the thing from going off (or... timing the shot with a hinge release). When I switched to LH my release was the best it ever was because my left release hand wasn't smart enough to get in the way... it has since become much smarter


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

"relaxed" is somewhat mis-leading. the key is to "relax the muscles that have nothing to do with drawing the bow, or shooting the shot"......
we have to learn what muscles these are and which ones are "safe to relax" so that only a minimum of musculature is doing the work and the rest allows those muscles to work, but still allows that bone to bone structural integrity that produces consistent shooting and a reasonably steady hold with minimum float range. the more relaxed those muscles that can be in a relaxed state, while shooting, the better your float range will be.
the more you know and understand about the physics of good form and shot execution, the easier it will be to produce this condition. that is, "in a nut shell",... the "mental science" behind a good shot.
for those who are experienced shooters, when it is said that they are "relaxed during the shot", it is the above, that they are referring to.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The "aggressive" part is mental, not muscular. In a shot sequence, you reach a point of go/no go. You either let down or finish the shot. If you decide to finish the shot, you want to mentally commit to follow through, letting nothing stop you. Actually, at this point suddenly adding muscle engagement will likely result in a poor shot. 

Once you commit, aggressive means that you will complete your shot in whatever time frame that you have decided works best for you. It means that you are focusing your mind wherever works best for you, usually on aiming for compound archers, but some focus elsewhere. It means that you are not second guessing your form and execution of the shot. It means decisiveness and determination instead of timidity.

Aggressive doesn't have anything to do with how hard you pull. Your shot may include hard pulling, but that is not what is meant by shooting aggressively.

JMHO,
Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Joe Schnur said:


> Leave it to you to notice the form flaw nice catch.


??? It's something on the wall.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the "mental science", is the check list that you run down checking that all the right things are in place and running correctly on each and every shot, part of that check list includes things like the question, " is my bow hand relaxed and in full bone to bone condition ?....there's noreason that same question cannot extend to the issue of whether other muscles are relaxed. it is part of why we spend time at the blind bale, concentrating on the "musculature of our shot execution". it is then that we make mental notes of how we should feel, during a shot....it is most certainly part of the mental process, as well as the aggressive physical process. during blind baling, by concentrating on what we are dong as we shoot, we are teaching our muscles mentally, what they should be doing at every stage of the shot. it is muscle memory, that allows them to reproduce that action that has been learned at the blind bale.
one of the biggest problems that exists on this forum, is the general lack of understanding that the two states of process, "mental and physical", cannot be separated completely and that the mental process, is running at full steam, during every phase of a good shot and is in full control of what ever "is",...or "isn't" ..., gong on.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I'd say something of pulling the bow apart...and good balance within it....


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

ron or sonny since you two are in my age bracket, i don`t seem to be able to get in my mental zone as easy anymore,when i did in competition rather it was trap,rifles or archery i did compete well then, now the zone just does not happen much any more,is this common with our age ?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I guess I'm still in the Zone, but hanging in the club 3D and State 3D sanctioned events. Still placing and better in club 3Ds and ASA state sanctioned events. However, I'm in a rut, 3rd place 3 times in a row at our ASA State Championships, Super Senior class.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it is just age...I don't have all that much determination to go shoot any more, either. when I do, though, I don't have any trouble getting I the zone, that's still pretty automatic, for me. I did allot of training for many years. I truly think that is the answer, most guys don't train nearly enough. that mental conditioning is a switch that gets forgotten where it is, when it's not solidly ingrained. once it's solidly in your head, it's like riding a bike. you pick up the bow and the switch turns on. 
I didn't even go down to the club for spot leagues this year!...... i'm waiting for my wife to jack me about buying that Supra 2 years ago, that she doesn't see me shoot much, anymore !.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

A bit more. If anything, I have a hard time getting charged up, but due to most all the people I use to shoot with have quit shooting. Kevin Koch and I talked of this last year. We're just about it from back to 2003. I met Kevin at the 2003 IAA 3D State Championship. He took Champion and I took 2nd behind him. I was 54 years old then. That young pup did it to me again last year, took 1st at this club 3D and me 2nd again. 

Age, I think it sucks. The NFAA lowered Senior Adult to 50 years old. I took I.A.A. Field Champion in Senior Adult Free Style at age 55 when the age limit was 55. Let field14 see this and he'll turn loose


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm pushing the big 6-0 and have not yet found the key to finding the zone on command, but on occasion it does find me and when it does the experience is nothing short of amazing. My perception of the bulls eye literally grows to fill the inner diameter of my 29mm scope and I know without question there is absolutely no way in hell that I can miss hitting the absolute center. And I do.

Then I go collect the arrows, check them over really well for damage, walk back to the line, draw up again only to see a normal-sized scoring area staring back at me.....sigh The hunt continues.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

if you ingrain the shot into the subconscious and develop the shot around that it becomes much easier to shut things off and let the shot happen. You don't think about the steps in the shot, where the dot will sit when you come to anchor, how the shot will break; you put the dot in the middle and just let it happen... with the entire process being subconscious you are able to devote the conscious mind to some other aspect that does not interfere with the shot- be it music, how your dot is floating, your inspiration, etc


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it is a "trained auto-response" that has to be installed in your psyche by time spent at the shooting line. if you don't spend enough time there, you won't be able to just "slip into it" automatically, any time you pick up the bow. without that auto response, you have to be in the "mood" to shoot, so your brain is "acceptable" to going to that place.
it's somewhat the same as having a good sub conscious release execution or not. many of us have the execution, but not all the time, or not real reliably......same thing....it is installed in our heads by time spent working on installing there. if we don't spend enough time installing it, it won't always be there reliably to work every time we need it.
as in any sport, the hard part is the training and conditioning,...the actual activity should be the easy part.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

N7709K said:


> if you ingrain the shot into the subconscious and develop the shot around that it becomes much easier to shut things off and let the shot happen. You don't think about the steps in the shot, where the dot will sit when you come to anchor, how the shot will break; you put the dot in the middle and just let it happen... with the entire process being subconscious you are able to devote the conscious mind to some other aspect that does not interfere with the shot- be it music, how your dot is floating, your inspiration, etc


Jacob,

I completely agree with you on this. I will add that it has to be a good shot that won't let you down under pressure. For example a drive-by punching shot can work great in the back yard, but toe the line with a couple of national level archers and it will fall apart like wet tissue. (personal experience here  )

Many hours of perfect practice on a solid shot sequence takes it to the subconscious level. It's the reality of getting good at target archery.

Allen


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well, I'll be 69 on 11/14 and I still shoot as good as I ever did. I shoot most every day, at least a 14 target field round during the season and then switch gears to indoor for the winter. I don't understand what you younger folks are talking about. I need to go cut the grass.


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

Eric, have you tried setting the hinge colder? I know it sounds counter-intuitive- but when I was having problems locking up with the index finger i did this and it changed everything for the better. 

A colder setting makes you have more motion on the release and you have to trust that motion. When the hinge is set hot very little motion will set it off and the index finger seems to develop some anxiety and stops all motion. I think more motion on the release could be helpful.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

bowman72 said:


> Eric, have you tried setting the hinge colder? I know it sounds counter-intuitive- but when I was having problems locking up with the index finger i did this and it changed everything for the better.
> 
> A colder setting makes you have more motion on the release and you have to trust that motion. When the hinge is set hot very little motion will set it off and the index finger seems to develop some anxiety and stops all motion. I think more motion on the release could be helpful.


I actually set my hinge as slow as it will accept (TRU Ball Sweet Spot II) although the Sweet Spot doesn't have a lot of adjustment... I wish it had more. I believe I understand the issue (thanks to Bees). As a result I'm working on inserting a "firing position" into my setup process. Early results indicate that this seems to be helping. My shots are going off smoothly and my entire setup is of a more relaxed nature. Like I said though, this is early in the development.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the whole idea of all the training we do is so that no one shot is more important or stressful than another. every shot should have the same level of importance. when the shot is well ingrained to the subconscious, it runs by itself, exactly the same and with the same reliability, because the subconscious operates outside of emotional influence.


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