# Struggling with Off-The-Shelf tuning?...(check this)



## herd1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Thanks Bill. Helped me.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Well, that is interesting. You're making me think. STOP IT!


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## ncsturkey (Oct 18, 2004)

Now that this issue is resolved you don't plan to shoot this bow at Brevard on the 900 round do you?? What is your current plan??


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## algdog (Jun 13, 2005)

Jinxter
I wonder if this is all related to tiller and hand grip
my one CV hunter has a 3/16" positive tiller on the top limb, that nock point is right at 3/8" and shoots great 
my other one is even tillered and the nock point is 5/8" and also shoots great

how is the tiller on yours? I would bet even tiller

I had to go to a very neutral grip with almost no palm or finger pressure, and started using a finger sling on both of them

so with the top limb flexed more, the nock moves down, with the tiller even top and bottom, the nock will have to sit higher to shoot straight. I have to believe that with a custom made riser also that there can be some difference between one riser or the other. not like the tempest where it is all written in machined aluminum

I also wonder that if your arrow is touching in front of center, if the arrow is lifting off the rest as soon as you release, 
decreasing the amount of torque applied to the riser when you are shooting, giving you more freedom of a grip, seeing that 
you stated that your grip is varying from shot to shot. kind of like a reverse drop away compound rest,


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

algdog said:


> Jinxter
> I wonder if this is all related to tiller and hand grip
> my one CV hunter has a 3/16" positive tiller on the top limb, that nock point is right at 3/8" and shoots great
> my other one is even tillered and the nock point is 5/8" and also shoots great
> ...


My bow did arrive even tiller but it's tilled 1/4" Positive now.

I didn't care for the way it drew when it arrived as it had a bit of top rock too it on the draw.

Sid coached me through this shimming process where he just wanted to get a ballpark shim stack thickness from me so I could send the limbs back where they'd re-tiller them for me customizing the bow to my particular grip and draw but?...I used high quality machine shop grade plastic shim stock and did a bang up job of it as I used several different shim thicknesses to get the draw quality I wanted and then?...










made up my own custom (non-biodegradable) shim stack and installed it under the black rubber limb pocket liner...










and because I used 3 layers of the .012" Black shim stock and graduated it in steps?....you wouldn't even know it's there unless I pointed it out to you and you had your readers on! LOL!










so I could see no reason to trouble the Sids or risk shipping these limbs back and forth too Scotland just to custom tiller them for me and for bonus points?...if for any reason "Even Tiller" is desired down the road?...all that need be done is remove the shims.




algdog said:


> I had to go to a very neutral grip with almost no palm or finger pressure, and started using a finger sling on both of them


and see?...I don't mind a high wrist position but that's what I'm speaking of where it was "Uncomfortably High"...and actually painful with the web of my old bow hand jammed up high in the grips throat where I?...like some palm contact...(not pressure)...just "light contact"...as I feel it helps register and steady the bow. 



algdog said:


> so with the top limb flexed more, the nock moves down, with the tiller even top and bottom, the nock will have to sit higher to shoot straight. I have to believe that with a custom made riser also that there can be some difference between one riser or the other. not like the tempest where it is all written in machined aluminum


The point I'm trying to make here is this...

Picture your shelf radius as a complete circle..."A Ball"...(if you will)....where on a vertical plane?...your arrows attitude is going to remain fairly as it is at static until?...the nock leaves the double nocking point string...agreed?....so now the question becomes...

*"Do you want your arrow shooting OVER the Ball or?...Through The Top of it?"*



algdog said:


> I also wonder that if your arrow is touching in front of center, if the arrow is lifting off the rest as soon as you release,
> decreasing the amount of torque applied to the riser when you are shooting, giving you more freedom of a grip, seeing that
> you stated that your grip is varying from shot to shot. kind of like a reverse drop away compound rest,


Let's make clear that I NEVER stated that..."my grip varies from shot too shot"...basically what I stated was...I wound up tailoring my grip too the bow rather than tuning the bow too my grip...< that's the point I was attempting to convey...not admission of a rookie level oversight...more like...

*"I wouldn't always remember to custom adjust my grip to suit the bows errant state of tune"*


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## algdog (Jun 13, 2005)

.I could shoot good bare shaft groupings with the fletched but?...not all the time...and those times I didn't?...I blamed myself for not pressuring the grip correctly and viola!...and as long as I..."remembered to"..."thought about it"...and?.."actually implemented it"?....yeah...I could pressure the grip to get the results I was looking for except?...for that little voice still repeating...

*"Somethings still not right!...It could be better!...It shouldn't be this difficult nor should you need to do anything special with your grip each and every shot!. Hafta Think About It or Do anything Special"...grip.


Jinkster, I wasn't calling it a rookie mistake, or trying to make a bad remark, as that is what I would do,(make a rookie mistake) I was just trying to figure out why the increased nock height would allow you to hold the grip and not do anything special with it every shot
my thinking of an arrow slightly in front of the rest center, helping with grip pressure and not having to do anything special on every shot, was all
I was thinking about the mechanics of it, and it may have some type of lifting effect that may help me also

what do you think?*


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Place something like a toothpick or match stick under your shelf material on both the shelf and sight window in line with the grip throat. This creates a much smaller pressure point for the arrow to act upon during the release. This in turn reduces the effect of the variable of the arrow's angle of attack to the shelf's radius.

Shelves and sight windows need to be radiused to start with, but that is just the beginning. The singular pressure point still needs to be created.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

A toothpick under the strike plate and the rest meeting at the same point also reduces resistance and less time that arrow is on the string.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Bill - your strike plate moved forward too, did you do that to match up where the arrow contacted the riser on both the rest and strike plate creating a more single contact point? This is new to me.


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## BassBoysLLP (Mar 12, 2011)

Good thread. I've been shooting my CH at least once a day since I got it back from Border. My limbs are Sid's old limbs tillered 1/4" positive. They shoot great with a 3/4" nock point 3 under. Swapping the limbs and shooting negative tiller to string walk nock is best at 1/2". 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

Interesting thread! A bunch of my stuff is around 3/4 nocking point. We are changing the tiller by moving that nock point to the tune, aren't we? Lunger


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

lunger 66 said:


> Interesting thread! A bunch of my stuff is around 3/4 nocking point. We are changing the tiller by moving that nock point to the tune, aren't we? Lunger


"Dynamically Speaking"?...yes lunger...where we aren't tillering to tune...we are more...."Tuning To Tiller"

The more we bias the load of the arrow towards either limb tip is the more we shift load off one limb and onto the other thereby affecting "The Timing" (tiller) of limb closure.

The caveat comes in where actual arrow tuning comes into play and this can be addressed by either lowering or raising the arrows rested position via shelf material thickness or minor adjustments to the nocking point. (which is the easy path most take)

Then again?...much the same can be achieved by "Shimming The Limbs" of a Bolt-Down type bow.

There's a rule when venturing into the fine tuning of a bow...

*"Everything Affects Everything"* :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> I'm reading some threads where folks are having difficulty tuning their "Shot Off-The-Shelf" bows and figured I'd share this recent experience and observation of mine.
> 
> I recently received a new custom ordered Borders Hex7.5 Covert Hunter where a coupe weeks ago?...I THOUGHT I had it well tuned but a little voice in my head kept saying..._"Not Really Bill..You Ain't THERE Yet"_
> 
> ...


This is why I prefer a lift on the shelf... :grin:


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## manymanysheaths (Aug 17, 2017)

Bender has it right. Even 'off the shelf' it is best to reduce friction as much as possible. The more friction the more influence there is on the arrow. Never a good thing. Of course this line of thinking will eventually lead, dare I say it, to an elevated rest......


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

manymanysheaths said:


> Bender has it right. Even 'off the shelf' it is best to reduce friction as much as possible. The more friction the more influence there is on the arrow. Never a good thing. Of course this line of thinking will eventually lead, dare I say it, to an elevated rest......


such as a lift... :grin:


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Bender said:


> Place something like a toothpick or match stick under your shelf material on both the shelf and sight window in line with the grip throat. This creates a much smaller pressure point for the arrow to act upon during the release. This in turn reduces the effect of the variable of the arrow's angle of attack to the shelf's radius.
> 
> Shelves and sight windows need to be radiused to start with, but that is just the beginning. The singular pressure point still needs to be created.


X2

I tell my customers this all the time. Set the axis then revisit bare shaft tuning. This singular point is dependent on both vertically and horizontally set point. Moving it forward effectively effect s the nocking point and out center shot. 
Dan


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## nhbuck28 (Dec 24, 2016)

what do you mean set the axis? can you explain please?


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

The shelf hump and striker hump should line up over the lowest part of the grip or slightly forward.
Dan


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

This is a great thread! Thanks for starting it Mr jinks. Never thought about this subject in this kind of depth...


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Great info, Bill! Thanks!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Halfcawkt said:


> This is a great thread! Thanks for starting it Mr jinks. Never thought about this subject in this kind of depth...


You're very welcome and my pleasure as it brings to light just how NOT simplistic the fine tuning of a single string bow is.

Then again?...I often times think, overthink then re-think the things I do and then often times redo them as I learn along the way.

Archery: is an ongoing process for me as I refine what sort of rig I prefer and how I should tune it based on style of execution and even sight picture preferences to the point that the tune actually becomes...."Personalized"

With my Covert Hunter?...I don't want to hafta think about "How I Grip It" let alone turning my bow arm elbow this way or cocking my bow hand wrist that way...I just want to "Grab & Execute!"....which for me means that with an intuitively positioned grip?...(where I'm not consciously imparting any influence or torque into the bow as I allow it's grip to naturally seat my bow hand) and a natural swing up of my bow arm?...I don't..."Cant My Bow"...it just comes up that way as I lock into full form.

This leaves my arrow shaft resting in somewhat of a V-notch formed by my bows shelf & riser wall where I'm of the opinion that once the string is loosed?...it's just that very momentary initial pulse of power against the shafts rested spots that cause it to almost immediately go into oscillations where for all intents and purposes?...the rest has now become completely irrelevant as it's influence over my arrow ended the moment that pulse did...while that same pulse actually kicks my bow slightly downward and away from the arrows shaft.

Shimming my Limbs: was more about attaining a good balance of the bow where it doesn't rock and remains vertically stable throughout my draw so that my bow hand can establish and maintain localized pressure on the bows grip where the resultant tiller (which went from dead even too 1/4" positive) was merely the end result of achieving the former where things like adjusting nock point height and shelf & strike-plate thicknesses chosen were as much about tuning my arrows as they were about refining my sight picture in an effort to get the bow to shoot where I look with confidence and as much consistency as my executions allow.

That said?...Borders Covert Hunter risers are extremely deflexed in design to accommodate the big hook limbs where in this next pic it's easy to see that Borders opted to place the crown of their shelf radius mid-riser well forward of the grips throat.... 










so for me to opt to relocate the arrows resting place by moving it rearward would be me changing the intended design and quite possibly making the bow more sensitive because would not doing such be akin to me introducing a miniscule overdraw into the bows design?...and BTW?...the crown of the shelf is only about 3/8ths" forward of the grips throat where my questions in moving it rearward would include...

A. Who other than competitors using a plunger ever dictated that the arrows resting spot MUST BE dead centered over the throats grip and not forward of it by any amount and?...

B. Why?

because to my way of thinking?..."slightly forward"...would make the bow "More Forgiving" 

My leather strike-plate is actually slightly thicker toward the belly side of the bow than the back and this is what it looked like within a few hundred shots of installing it about 6 months ago....










and this pic was taken just minutes ago...6 months and about 10,000 shots later where we can see the pattern the arrow pass is forming....










and this is how that bow and set-up shoots bare shafts...






But this is a Covert Hunter Bolt-Down bow shot Off-The-Shelf and nothing like I set-up or execute with a target rig...which BTW?...I'm putting another one of those together now...guess I'm a glutton for punishment! LOL!


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## manymanysheaths (Aug 17, 2017)

your posts read like a documentary! :thumbs_up


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## moduloro (Nov 10, 2018)

Dear JINKSTER, you made my day. I own a BP Redman and Anubis and with both of them, I always had the issue that my bare-shaft would have a nock high. I stuck to the average rule and scale for nocking point position. After reading your post I started from scratch and went 1" high. OMG at a little bit more than 3/4" I found the best spot so far. Bareshaft most of the time straight, with sloppy release still sometimes a bit high. Yet, it is soooo much better now. Actually even the sound of the string sounds different - better. Thanks a lot for that. Yet, I dare to ask you one more thing. I usually build my rest with a little hump slightly after the deepest point of riser,which is usually before the shelf radius mid-point. Any comments/thoughts to nocking point optimization and having a rest with hump? Thanks!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

moduloro said:


> Dear JINKSTER, you made my day. I own a BP Redman and Anubis and with both of them, I always had the issue that my bare-shaft would have a nock high. I stuck to the average rule and scale for nocking point position. After reading your post I started from scratch and went 1" high. OMG at a little bit more than 3/4" I found the best spot so far. Bareshaft most of the time straight, with sloppy release still sometimes a bit high. Yet, it is soooo much better now. Actually even the sound of the string sounds different - better. Thanks a lot for that. Yet, I dare to ask you one more thing. I usually build my rest with a little hump slightly after the deepest point of riser,which is usually before the shelf radius mid-point. Any comments/thoughts to nocking point optimization and having a rest with hump? Thanks!


I'll sometimes use the tapered end of a toothpick behind my strike=plate as a means of fine tuning strike=plate thickness and while others may have strong feelings about the importance of a defined shelf hump?...I actually prefer a very subtle and elongated shelf radius and here's why...

When the string is loosed on a fully drawn and rested arrow as shot off the shelf?...there are two directions the arrow can not go yet the shaft still delivers a pulse of enery against both the shelf and the riser wall/strike-plate and in that begins the shafts initial flex direction which see's the middle portion of the shaft flexing inboard towards the riser and for a right handed archer appears like this looking from the top down.... )

now?...if there's a sharp defined hump sticking out from the strike-plate?...the contact point of your shaft just moved rearward of that defined hump and instead of a smooth rolling subtle surface?...your shaft is now being forced towards and into a rather acute and defined angle jutting out from your strike-plate and this not only serves to amplify operator error but also accelerates "contact point wear" and because it's such a small contact point?...it wears so quickly that the bow that was tuned yesterday?...after a couple hundred shots the arrow is flying nock left and striking too the right from excessive strike-plate wear due too the tiny little defined point the archer created on their strike-plate...but then they lower their BH a 1/4" and all is well for another hundred shots or so as they continuie to take pride in that small contact point they created with a freaking toothpick! LOL!

There are reasons that shelves and even riser walls have subtle radius's profiled into them and it's not because the Bowyer didn't have a clue and while toothpicks can be real handy for tuning purposes?...once the strike-plate thickness is properly tuned?...it's time for the toothpick to hit the round file and a strike=plate of the proper thickness...(that will hold tune and wear for a good long while)...installed.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

If the wear is proceeding THAT quickly that the bow loses "tune" in a few hundred shots, it wasn't tuned to begin with.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bender said:


> If the wear is proceeding THAT quickly that the bow loses "tune" in a few hundred shots, it wasn't tuned to begin with.


as the first pi$$ is soundly taken.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

JINKSTER said:


> as the first pi$$ is soundly taken.


Happy to help! Any time, just ask.

:thumbs_up


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## moduloro (Nov 10, 2018)

Haha I had to laugh loud when I read your post. A month ago I was veeery proud of my humped rest/strikeplate and then, yessss after a few hundred shots my nice little hump turned into an ugly grinded flat "plateau" and my nock started to go - well actually I started to see my arrows go fish-tailing and it wasn't a great sight. I started to reflect ond realized that a well defined, hard and flat hump would have the opposite effect of what I intended- Hence my question. so.... I guess I will go "back to the roots" and as you said and give it a try --- use the bow as specified by the builder. Thank you once more.


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## DTbowman1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Thanks. This is very useful info


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Would like to see those pictures on the opening post.

Bowmania


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bowmania said:


> Would like to see those pictures on the opening post.
> 
> Bowmania


And I'm not quite sure how those pix disappeared especially since I paid for a premium membership here but maybe they glitched out when they transferred over to this new board format/software anyways?...I found one (1) but the most critical example pic of which I spoke in the OP which is the reason why myself (and Covert Hunter Owners in general) found it necessary to use a very high nocking point and that reason is...

The shelves of the Covert Hunter risers are not mildly radiused...they are extremely radiused which in turn can and often times does dictate that the archer use a 3/4"-1" high nocking point (pending how they pressure the grip)...if you pressure the grip low with a good amount of heel pressure?...that rocks the risers top rearward which in turn moves where the arrow meets the shelf forward which allows the shaft to sit the shelf more forward (past the shelf radius center/peak/high point) but if you use high grip pressure this rocks the top of the riser a touch forward which sees your arrow shaft meeting the shelf "Before The High Point of The Shelfs Radius" so when the tension of the string is loosed the shelf can rock and rise up dynamically elevating the shelf as the arrow passes so?....te static appearance of a 3/4"-1" high nocking point becomes dynamically null and void in application and anything lower turns your bows shelf into a "Jumping Ramp" rather than a ramp that falls away.

For ^^THIS^^ reason you will see savvy Bowyers incorporate shelves that immediately start high on the belly side and then fall/drop away towards the back of the bow...some gradually and some quickly but here's that pic exhibiting what it is I speak of.where my arrow needed to be nocked very high to rest beyond the high point of the radiused shelf.


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## Skeptix_907 (Jul 30, 2020)

Great info but oh man do you make it difficult to read your stuff. Just cut out the ellipses, periods will do. And I never thought a grown adult male uses language like "wazzap wid dat?" hehe.


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