# 3rd axis/natural cant/bubble level



## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

I've been finding that after setting 3rd axis it seems that my form just doesn't feel right. It forces me to hold the bow at what feels like 1 o'clock(to get the bubble level) rather than what 'feels' perfectly level. When I adjust the bubble to my natural form rather than use a level...things 'feel' and 'look' lined up/level and I shoot better and more consistent....any tips or thoughts as to why this is?

I have checked all axis and also used a Hamskea leveling device...what 'feels' right isn't far off, about a 1/2tofull bubble. I want to trust my carpenters level and Hamskea but the bow just doesn't look straight up and down and like i said I just don't shoot as consistent. I do all my hunting from a tree stand so 3rd axis is a concern for me.

My sight is a PSE Top Gun F-22 with 3rd axis adjustment, the bubble is also independently adjustable for 2nd axis.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

adjust with that hamseka at draw to your draw. riser flex may play a little too but set it up to what feels right and see how it shoots for you


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## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

dwagoner said:


> adjust with that hamseka at draw to your draw. riser flex may play a little too but set it up to what feels right and see how it shoots for you


 If I set it up to what 'feels' and 'looks' right when i draw and shoot the bow everything is great, good groups..consistent...except i'm a half bubble off when I check for 3rd axis.


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

3rd axis is moving the scope toward you or away from you, 2nd axis is what levels the bow at holding or full draw. You can adjust the 2nd axis to where the bow feels comfortable at full draw without effecting your 3rd axis. What I do is set 1st, 2nd and 3rd at static first than I check 3rd at full draw and when everything is good than I go back to the 2nd axis and make it level at full draw according to how I hold the bow...


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

Joseph McCluske said:


> 3rd axis is moving the scope toward you or away from you, 2nd axis is what levels the bow at holding or full draw. You can adjust the 2nd axis to where the bow feels comfortable at full draw without effecting your 3rd axis. What I do is set 1st, 2nd and 3rd at static first than I check 3rd at full draw and when everything is good than I go back to the 2nd axis and make it level at full draw according to how I hold the bow...


Your having a problem with your own set-up, yet you offer advise that is incorrect? You don't go back and re-set second axis. The whole reason for setting it in the first place is to make sure your holding the bow PLUM - vertical. The pins (if a multi pin sight) or a sight bar then can be trusted to be parrallel with the riser. Then a correct 3rd axis keeps it squared up so long distance or severe uphill or down hill your sights and your arrows stay in line.


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## erictski (May 20, 2009)

red44 said:


> Your having a problem with your own set-up, yet you offer advise that is incorrect? You don't go back and re-set second axis. The whole reason for setting it in the first place is to make sure your holding the bow PLUM - vertical. The pins (if a multi pin sight) or a sight bar then can be trusted to be parrallel with the riser. Then a correct 3rd axis keeps it squared up so long distance or severe uphill or down hill your sights and your arrows stay in line.


you dont need to hold the bow verticle...you can cant it as long as your sight is level. there is a thread here somewhere that a guy has a target sight and the bar is tilted like 10*. what mccluske said was pretty much right on.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

If you want to shoot with a cant, set 3rd axis the normal way, then loosen the screws that hold the vertical part of the sight, & kick it over all the way. look at it that what you did was to rotate the bow around the sight. As long as you hold the bubble in the middle , you will shoot down the center


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

red44 said:


> Your having a problem with your own set-up, yet you offer advise that is incorrect? You don't go back and re-set second axis. The whole reason for setting it in the first place is to make sure your holding the bow PLUM - vertical. The pins (if a multi pin sight) or a sight bar then can be trusted to be parrallel with the riser. Then a correct 3rd axis keeps it squared up so long distance or severe uphill or down hill your sights and your arrows stay in line.





erictski said:


> you dont need to hold the bow verticle...you can cant it as long as your sight is level. there is a thread here somewhere that a guy has a target sight and the bar is tilted like 10*. what mccluske said was pretty much right on.


The newer sights with the adjustable level for 2nd axis do not plumb the sight to your cant, only to the riser. One would need to shim the mounting to get the bubble level to allow for a cant (after adjusting the level to plumb to the riser prior to shimming.) To me, rotating the bar or rotating the scope about the bar is second axis. Rotating the bubble for 2nd or 3rd axis is a cost reduced method that won't acheive the same results as a proper sight.


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

red44 said:


> Your having a problem with your own set-up, yet you offer advise that is incorrect? You don't go back and re-set second axis. The whole reason for setting it in the first place is to make sure your holding the bow PLUM - vertical. The pins (if a multi pin sight) or a sight bar then can be trusted to be parrallel with the riser. Then a correct 3rd axis keeps it squared up so long distance or severe uphill or down hill your sights and your arrows stay in line.


 Information I said is correct, do a search on the hammers video for the hamske 3rd axis tuner and watch it. I don't know if I have a problem with my own set up I ask and so far nobody has a correction but since your an expert why don't you tell me, my thoughts are it's not a set up problem I think i'm just making a weak shot...


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

red44 said:


> Your having a problem with your own set-up, yet you offer advise that is incorrect? You don't go back and re-set second axis. The whole reason for setting it in the first place is to make sure your holding the bow PLUM - vertical. The pins (if a multi pin sight) or a sight bar then can be trusted to be parrallel with the riser. Then a correct 3rd axis keeps it squared up so long distance or severe uphill or down hill your sights and your arrows stay in line.


Red, don't believe you are correct. , the sight doesn't have to parallel with the riser . My Bow has a cant, but my sight is vertical


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Mike is right. It is only the site bar or site pins/wire HAVE to be plumb or vertical at the shot---not necessarly the bow. The bow can be canted if that feels best and shoots best for you. On target sites, it's the 1st axis that is adjusted to shoot to your natural cant---but only after the 2nd and 3rd axis are set. Over the years, there have been many good shooters that competed and won at the highest levels with a canted bow.


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## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

Lots of info here that is over my head... I don't want to shoot with a cant. I want to shoot with the bow perfectly vertical. It just seems to me that when i check axis and set my bubble it forces me to tilt the bow slightly to the right..1'oclock. If I set the bubble according to what "looks" vertical and "feels" vertical...i shoot better... however this is the concern because if i set my bubble to what "looks" level then if i do have a shot that requires 3rd to be spot on..then i'm guessing it won't be. Strangely enough..after much testing over the years i've always shot just as good if not better by simply ignoring the bubble and instinctively aligning the bow by looking at the edge of the upper limbs upon drawing the bow...even at long range/steep angle shots.
Maybe i should just take it to the shop and confirm that i indeed have my bow leveled on all three axis. If it is....well poop.


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

Sixgunluv
Good luck, I am with you, this is over my head. Glad I don't have your problem, not sure what I would do. Have you tried to go old school with a plumb bob to see if second axis is correct? I have tried levels and found a plumb bob works better for me, but that's just me.

Ches.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

sixgunluv said:


> Lots of info here that is over my head... I don't want to shoot with a cant. I want to shoot with the bow perfectly vertical. It just seems to me that when i check axis and set my bubble it forces me to tilt the bow slightly to the right..1'oclock. If I set the bubble according to what "looks" vertical and "feels" vertical...i shoot better... however this is the concern because if i set my bubble to what "looks" level then if i do have a shot that requires 3rd to be spot on..then i'm guessing it won't be. Strangely enough..after much testing over the years i've always shot just as good if not better by simply ignoring the bubble and instinctively aligning the bow by looking at the edge of the upper limbs upon drawing the bow...even at long range/steep angle shots.
> Maybe i should just take it to the shop and confirm that i indeed have my bow leveled on all three axis. If it is....well poop.


 I think from what you are saying, is that whether you know it or not, you have a natural cant.
Level the sight the correct way, & then draw it back so you feel comfortable, & then adjust the vertical part of the sight until it is plumb.
i make a leveler that can be used on any surface. the sight is leveled off the bow. I probably have leveled at least a 1000 sights over the years at shows & tournys. i never had any one say it was wrong. Many are huge names in the game.


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

Watch the vedio, it will simplify the process

http://www.hamskeaarchery.com/tutorials/video-tutorials.html


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

leveling a tournament sight-part B. I'll be dammed. :embarres: My appologies to you Joseph McCluske, apparently you WERE correct. You CAN go back and adjust the 2nd to your kant, and to the OP for any added confusion caused by my statements. And no, crow does not taste very good..


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

red44 said:


> leveling a tournament sight-part B. I'll be dammed. :embarres: My appologies to you Joseph McCluske, apparently you WERE correct. You CAN go back and adjust the 2nd to your kant, and to the OP for any added confusion caused by my statements. And no, crow does not taste very good..


To be totally honest, there are far more people shooting a plumbed bow (or string) than not. Almost all the coaches and books/video's teach that the site is leveled to a plumbed bow or string. That's the way I was taught and shoot as well. Even Nuts&bolts stuff on here uses the same message---mostly I think to keep it as simple as possible and not confuse anyone. Shooting to a natural cant is just another one of those things that solves a problem for a few people, and teaches the rest of us that there's more than one way to skin a cat. It does sound like the OP should experiment with the idea. Can't hurt and might help.


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

red44 said:


> leveling a tournament sight-part B. I'll be dammed. :embarres: My appologies to you Joseph McCluske, apparently you WERE correct. You CAN go back and adjust the 2nd to your kant, and to the OP for any added confusion caused by my statements. And no, crow does not taste very good..


Accepted, I even adjust my hunting bow to a comfortable draw by shimming the sight screws where it mounts to the bow than since my hunting sight does not have a 3rd axis adjustment I shim the front or back of the sight where needed. Not perfect but it helps mentally when I draw on them deer...


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

When Mike and TNMAN both disagreed with me, I had to take a step back. You can get so stuck on what you think is the only way that anything that's different is wrong. Sorry Joeseph.
I know from personal experience a recurve can be shot with a kant using the arrow tip for windage, and gap for elevation, but I guess I never transfered it to compounds and sights. It does make sense to me now. Sometimes you just have to use a bigger hammer on me. LOL. Thanks for being gracious Joe.


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## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

Lots of good experience here thanks. I don't have much ..a portable bow press and a bunch of bubble levels..but i'm learning. 
On a separate issue, i just realized that my QAD hunter was not level on my other Black Ice..discovered that when looking for the cause of some minor clearance issues with the rest..so i leveled it. Problem is that it does not seem to have a vertical adjustment...that means i gotta make adjustments at the nocking point...that's a pain. Guess it's time to try out my new Vital Gear "Magnix".


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## sixgunluv (Jul 1, 2003)

Sorry for the duplicate pics...guess 20min limit is not enough time for me to make a post...


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