# IBO Tee Time Poll and Opinions



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

The tee times will peer you in groups of your peers in the same class. This will also help with enforcing the rules and policing ourselves to help with some of the cheating. I do believe it will be a 2 day format.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I quit attending IBO events because they were not well organized and there was too much opportunities for cheating...


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Would this bring you back to some of the events Carolsii?


----------



## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

I guess it depends on whether it was Fri./Sat. shoot times or Sat./Sun. shoot times. I don't think I'd shoot nearly as many, or maybe any, if I have to start taking time off of work. One of the several reasons I don't attempt to shoot more ASA events.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Outback Man said:


> I guess it depends on whether it was Fri./Sat. shoot times or Sat./Sun. shoot times. I don't think I'd shoot nearly as many, or maybe any, if I have to start taking time off of work. One of the several reasons I don't attempt to shoot more ASA events.


It has been kicked around to give the option to the shooter whether they wanted friday/Saturday or Saturday/Sunday. There's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone through with a 20 target round. There is still a lot to be decided and for those that never shoot for the money there could possibly be a trophy round where you shoot at your leisure.


----------



## dottrz (Jul 27, 2013)

As far as setting up for "tee times," I'd like to see options at registration for: 20 fri/20 sat; all 40 fri. I'd like to see an all 40 sat too, but I don't think that would be efficient, and actually slow things back down. Maybe a 30 sat/10 Sun might work. Walks on's would have to either fill in, or wait.


----------



## pahunter1980 (Oct 17, 2010)

I think there could be enough time on Sunday just have to start early and assign targets for a shot gun start would be a good option for both days would help with organization a bit too


----------



## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

I just dont agree with the all 40 in one day. there needs to be the attempt to make everyone shoot the same. I have done 30 in one day and 10 in another but would gladly do 20 and 20. like I said on the other post i cant go to vegas or louisville and say I want to shoot both rounds today and go home.


----------



## 3dbowtechman (Jun 22, 2008)

Works on the pro ranges.With an open mind and work it can work with the amatures also.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

Pre-registered shoot times and shoot 20 on Friday and 20 on Saturday for money shooters. Sunday could be a rain out day for amateurs and Pros will shoot their remaining 10 targets. Unless a day gets rained out then try to leave Sunday for the Pros only and put their 10 targets where everyone can watch. This would get everyone a chance to see the Pros shoot. If you can't shoot both days because of funds or work then go fishing. Yes I work and have to take time off too. I also sometimes have to do side jobs just so I can enjoy archery.


----------



## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

It's a fact your not going to make everyone happy,but i think your on the right track.good luck.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Are we talking tee times like the semi pro and pro guys do where your class starts at the p and your on target 12 or just you have a set time and start at target 1 10 mins behind the other group ?


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> Are we talking tee times like the semi pro and pro guys do where your class starts at the p and your on target 12 or just you have a set time and start at target 1 10 mins behind the other group ?


Having a shotgun start like the pro ranges would be great but with the ranges I don't think we would be real efficient. I think tee times like the IBO World would be best suited for the present time.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

outbackarcher said:


> Having a shotgun start like the pro ranges would be great but with the ranges I don't think we would be real efficient. I think tee times like the IBO World would be best suited for the present time.


Yeah I can see what you mean. They'd have to set more ranges if they did a shotgun start I'd say.


----------



## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

Some of us like to shoot the 40 in 1 day, due to an expense. I, for one, can't afford to shoot and hotel rooms for 2-3 days, meals, vendors, fuel....I don't see a problem with tee times, but should have other options also. That's why the worlds are the worlds.Too much whining about the 2% that try to cheat.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

arrowblaster said:


> Some of us like to shoot the 40 in 1 day, due to an expense. I, for one, can't afford to shoot and hotel rooms for 2-3 days, meals, vendors, fuel....I don't see a problem with tee times, but should have other options also. That's why the worlds are the worlds.Too much whining about the 2% that try to cheat.


Believe me I understand the expense especially with $300 entry fees. This idea isn't really because of cheating. It is going to make the event more professional and efficient. It is also mainly geared toward the money classes as I would like to see increased payouts. 

What are the 2 biggest complaints we here from people toward the IBO? Wait times/time it takes to shoot and the lack of money won. We can fix both of these fairly easy.


----------



## pahunter1980 (Oct 17, 2010)

I agree the worlds format could work and just charge a flat rate for the money classes that everyone pays into


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

I also think there should be a hunter class for money also this class is the biggest and most competitive of all the ibo classes the payouts should be huge


----------



## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

There will always be cheaters but T times would be a bad idea. I would want to shoot when and how much each day. The weather, how you feel, equipment issues and the list goes on. Fridays is a great day most times to shoot all 40 if the weather is good. I say leave it alone.


----------



## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

When 1900 shooters show up in our backyard for a ASA shoot in Kentucky, the shooters sure must like there format. No one does 40 there and there must not be to many complaining with them numbers. I think a club could set up an ASA type setup but even make it better by leaving a bit more room between the targets. No one could be looking to there next target and stepping off yardage or even looking a couple targets ahead like you possibly could in ASA. I would sure think it would be easier for the host club to set up a range like this also. Then everyone starts and ends at the same time. Shoot with your peers. Everyone done at noon and heading home. Just string them targets 25 yards apart instead of 10 yards apart and the IBO would have the best game in town then. Absolutly no way to cheat then at all.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I have enjoyed this year as much as any year shooting pro and 20/20 format. I also enjoy shooting with all same class.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

T&A said:


> I also think there should be a hunter class for money also this class is the biggest and most competitive of all the ibo classes the payouts should be huge


There is, its called PHC


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

stoz said:


> There is, its called PHC


I know of it there is a whole dozen shooters in it what a competition guaranteed it will never receive any sponsor money


----------



## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

T&A said:


> I know of it there is a whole dozen shooters in it what a competition guaranteed it will never receive any sponsor money


Then this is one of the things outbackarcher should be looking into, along with IBO. It IS a pro class, help make it bigger! It is the first year


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Outbackarcher, definitely separate the trophy shooters and the money shooters. The ASA doesn't have "trophy" divisions and it has solid attendance. In my opinion, with the exception of World's, I don't "feel" like I'm really competing the other IBO tournaments. I know many folks do not like the "feeling" (pressure) of competing and so many of them would like to keep things as they are. That may be fine for the guys and gals shooting in "trophy" divisions. The idea of having available a place for an archer to get their feet wet may be a good idea and I'm certainly not against that.

I shoot indoor spots as well as 3D. That is one game where you are definitely shooting with the folks you are competing against. In the ASA we are grouped randomly within your class. At the Classic the top guys are peered grouped. In both scenarios you get to know your competition and actually befriend some of your competitors. Sure you sometimes are grouped with someone you don't necessarily care for but that is part of the challenge. I know I've made a lot of friends in the ASA and spot shooting because of random drawing. The IBO World shoots were the only times I shot with people in my class. 

I am not a great "people person" but one thing I do like about the ASA is meeting other competitors. Even if they are not in my group later this week in Metropolis, Illinois the folks I shot with in Florida, Kentucky and Alabama I will see somewhere on the range. We'll have time to chat and provide words of encouragement and support.......possibly toss an insult or two out! Even at IBO Worlds you only really interact within your group once on the range.

The IBO format has grown old and stale. But I know many folks would be perfectly happy with it remaining that way.


----------



## heh (Oct 28, 2002)

I think it would be an excellent idea. heh


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

T&A

I know expedition obsession and Elite pay contigency so far. I am ahead almost 2000 after winning Erie. I wouldn't say that's too bad.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I like the trophy / money idea. Then if you have to shoot and go you're still able to compete.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

stoz said:


> T&A
> 
> I know expedition obsession and Elite pay contigency so far. I am ahead almost 2000 after winning Erie. I wouldn't say that's too bad.


I'm glad to here a few of the smaller companies are giving something and also congrats to you for shooting well I know most of you few in that class are very good shooters


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Our circuit shoots open setups 40 max for trophies and 50 max for money. Would be one way to run it. Works for us.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

All classes should be for money and you could have a trophy shoot separate like the worlds if you plan to shoot for money you should have to pre register just like the worlds if you are a walk up the trophy class would be only choice and leave trophy shoot operate just like the the ibo does now that way the people who don't want to commit time or money to a real national event style shoot still have a choice


----------



## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

I know this is a separate topic and some people may disagree but I would like to see the IBO utilize more targets. Rinehart came out with a new bedded buck I would like to see in the game as well as the large polar bear (same mold as the standing grizzly). I just am not a big fan of shooting the same target more than once, not because I shoot some worse than others (which I do) but for the variety. Heck throw the white wolf in there as well as the grey sheep.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

T&A said:


> All classes should be for money and you could have a trophy shoot separate like the worlds if you plan to shoot for money you should have to pre register just like the worlds if you are a walk up the trophy class would be only choice and leave trophy shoot operate just like the the ibo does now that way the people who don't want to commit time or money to a real national event style shoot still have a choice


I agree!


----------



## NC100Kurt (Mar 29, 2006)

outbackarcher said:


> It has been kicked around to give the option to the shooter whether they wanted friday/Saturday or Saturday/Sunday. There's not enough time on Sunday to get everyone through with a 20 target round. There is still a lot to be decided and for those that never shoot for the money there could possibly be a trophy round where you shoot at your leisure.


There should only be one option. Money class! It is a national event. This would also increase the payouts which needs to be looked at. There is nothing in it for the shooters. Drive several hours, pay the entry fees, IBO membership, Hotels, Food, Gas, etc. If you do have a good shoot win $$ hardly anything. Give something back to the shooters.


----------



## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

NC100Kurt said:


> There should only be one option. Money class! It is a national event. This would also increase the payouts which needs to be looked at. There is nothing in it for the shooters. Drive several hours, pay the entry fees, IBO membership, Hotels, Food, Gas, etc. If you do have a good shoot win $$ hardly anything. Give something back to the shooters.


My thoughts exactly. On all the classes that have the trophy option they're making a killing off them with only 15$ going to money pot.


----------



## 3Darchr (Sep 9, 2006)

I would support t times in all class's just like we shoot the worlds.when you register at the Ibo trailer they could make times for the people that have registered. As far as the moment class payouts I think everyone should pay the money just my opinion.


----------



## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

rockyw said:


> There will always be cheaters but T times would be a bad idea. I would want to shoot when and how much each day. The weather, how you feel, equipment issues and the list goes on. Fridays is a great day most times to shoot all 40 if the weather is good. I say leave it alone.


I'll second that motion....


----------



## BruceZ (Jan 4, 2007)

X2


arrowblaster said:


> Some of us like to shoot the 40 in 1 day, due to an expense. I, for one, can't afford to shoot and hotel rooms for 2-3 days, meals, vendors, fuel....I don't see a problem with tee times, but should have other options also. That's why the worlds are the worlds.Too much whining about the 2% that try to cheat.


 For me, I do 3D because I love the sport and If it was all about money then I would stay home and go to work for the weekend.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

BruceZ said:


> X2 For me, I do 3D because I love the sport and If it was all about money then I would stay home and go to work for the weekend.


These are supposed to be prestigious shoots national shoots what other sport can you speak of let's you just come as you please and do what you want at a tournament level they should not be treated like a any typical weekend club shoot


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

T&A said:


> These are supposed to be prestigious shoots national shoots what other sport can you speak of let's you just come as you please and do what you want at a tournament level they should not be treated like a any typical weekend club shoot


Bingo.. My thoughts are that if the format remains a 'walk thru' type course then T-times like Worlds is the only way to do it. If the courses were altered to start and end in the same general area shotgun starts could be used. Also you could do 2 times each day, like 8 and 2. Shooters could notify when registering if they want to do all 40 in a day and they would get the opportunity. 2 start times Fri,and Sat and a 8 only on Sunday. 6 20 target courses could cycle 480-600 shooters per time slot (4-5) to a stake on the Amature courses. 1 of those courses would have to be used Sat for the Pro/semi range and a different 1 on Sun for the same. 
$60 straight entry fee for all Amature classes-15-17 of that goes to the purse, pay top 12-15% of the class. Covers the complaint of one day and run, allows the courses to be monitored by an official, should have no issue cycling the IBO's typical 900-1000 shooters thru and could always add another 20 targets when and if needed.


----------



## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

I pray these notions are not even being considered by the BOD.
I hope this is just the "pipe dream" of a bunch of "Even Stevens" who have to win cash when they shoot...


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> I pray these notions are not even being considered by the BOD.
> I hope this is just the "pipe dream" of a bunch of "Even Stevens" who have to win cash when they shoot...


I'm not going to say it's a pipe dream and the BOD hasn't saw it yet but they will. 

You will still have the option of doing what you want to but it will be a trophy class. The money class will have a structured pay back percentage with a structured format. 

In the proposal that is.


----------



## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

Two questions...if you have a trophy class and a money class how does that create a better payback. Won't the people not paying the money option now just be the people in the trophy class? Also, who's the overall class winner if the top trophy class score is higher than the top money class score?


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

Outback Man said:


> Two questions...if you have a trophy class and a money class how does that create a better payback. Won't the people not paying the money option now just be the people in the trophy class? Also, who's the overall class winner if the top trophy class score is higher than the top money class score?


They would be two separate classes, so there will be a 1st place in each class. It would be just like the World in which you have the World Championship classes and you have the trophy classes. In the World, the top trophy scores usually aren't even close to the top scores shooting for the World Championship. There would be more shoot in the money class because of sponsors and contingency monies. There is probably not even many local shops that would give any type of sponsorship to anyone shooting in trophy class. The fact of it is, like said earlier, it is a National shoot. It should've never been ran like it is now anyway. Why would you not want to shoot for money? Unless you are doubtful you have a chance of winning any of it.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

The amount going into the pot per shooter will be more than the optional $15 that goes there now. The amount of total purse money will be a lot more. 

The trophy class will be on different ranges and under the same shoot at your leisure format they have now.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

outbackarcher said:


> The amount going into the pot per shooter will be more than the optional $15 that goes there now. The amount of total purse money will be a lot more.
> 
> The trophy class will be on different ranges and under the same shoot at your leisure format they have now.


Sounds like a plan heading in the right direction hope it happens


----------



## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

T&A said:


> I also think there should be a hunter class for money also this class is the biggest and most competitive of all the ibo classes the payouts should be huge


There is a money class for hunters...it's called Advanced Hunter Class, it's forty yards max distance and uses the same equipment....



Why guys think they need to camp out in hunter class, then complain that they don't pay out is beyond me. If you want a chance to shoot for money then move up to a class that pays. If you want a chance to shoot for large sums of money then move up to one of the Pro/semi-pro classes. They offer larger payouts and a chance to make more contingency money.



The problem I see with the IBO is not how it's structured but how we the competitors view it.

Guys always complain about cheaters....Well if you witness it being done, report it!! Call out the individual immediately instead of keeping quite then complaining later. 

Guys always whine about the payouts...There are now classes for all equipment types that offer payouts, some are dependent on how many people pay in the fee others everyone pays.
If you want to win big money, you have to compete with the big boys. Sorry but that's how it goes.


Finally guys whine about those shooting 40 in a day, and those not shooting 40. They complain about back ups, they complain about weather, They complain about terrain...etc.

Well this is the one thing I will agree on. I do believe the IBO needs to improve it's organization. It needs to do a better job of grouping classes together as opposed to just the show up and shoot mentality. I do like the idea of giving guys the option of shooting all in a day or shooting 20 and 20 (this is the archers choice, if you choose to do 20 and 20 and it rains out that's noones fault but your own, as well as if you choose to shoot all 40 and it rains but the next day is beautiful, remember you made that choice)

Honestly I think the best short term solution would be to have alternating start times for classes on the ranges. So for example, you have 3 classes on one 40 target range, (2 20's, range 1 and 2) So class A has a start time of 7am. on range 1. This would mean that starting at 7am only those in class A will be grouped and sent out on range 1. At the same time on range 2 Class B would be starting. Class C would start on Range 1 at 8am and Range 2 would be closed until 9am when it would open up for Class A. and range 1 would open for class b then at 10a range 2 would open for class C. this would continue until 5pm to allow for all classes to exit the course. If your a group that wants to get all 40 done in a day well you better start early and be at the tent ready to start your 2nd 20 at the time's it alloted. There is no reason that as a group, group together by class shouldn't be able to get through a 20 target course in 2-2.5 hours. This is if you are following the proper rules and not wasting time between targets.

At Bedford this year my group shot the first 20 targets in 2 hours and 6 mins. This was even stopping at the 10 target break to rest, and drink tons of water (since they weren't selling bottles) There were groups in front of us and behind us but we keep moving at a steady pace because noone felt the need to abuse the rules and take longer then their alloted time. If all competitors would do this there wouldn't be no where near the issues with backups as we see now.


----------



## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Bingo.. My thoughts are that if the format remains a 'walk thru' type course then T-times like Worlds is the only way to do it. If the courses were altered to start and end in the same general area shotgun starts could be used. Also you could do 2 times each day, like 8 and 2. Shooters could notify when registering if they want to do all 40 in a day and they would get the opportunity. 2 start times Fri,and Sat and a 8 only on Sunday. 6 20 target courses could cycle 480-600 shooters per time slot (4-5) to a stake on the Amature courses. 1 of those courses would have to be used Sat for the Pro/semi range and a different 1 on Sun for the same.
> $60 straight entry fee for all Amature classes-15-17 of that goes to the purse, pay top 12-15% of the class. Covers the complaint of one day and run, allows the courses to be monitored by an official, should have no issue cycling the IBO's typical 900-1000 shooters thru and could always add another 20 targets when and if needed.


I agree with everything here but the cost...I don't feel the cost to shoot should need to be increased more then the $42 dollars we already pay to shoot. The burden to increase payouts should lie in the hands of the IBO and all the corporate sponsers they have. (or new sponsors) A percentage of entry fee, percentage of sponser dollars, and a percentage of yearly dues fees should go into a payback pot to fund payouts. 

Everyone compares the ASA payouts to the IBO's....NO one ever seems to compare entry cost. It's cheaper to shoot ASA bow novice (closest to hunter class) and they payout fairly deep into that class. How do they do that taking in less money then the IBO does??? Easy, they run the ASA as what it is, a competition based business. The IBO isn't, they are a legislature business that holds competition to help raise money to support the bowhunting cause.

I love the IBO but I do feel that maybe they need to rethink how some of the money they collect if distributed and start considering putting that money back into the hands of their members by increaseing payouts (with out raising fee's).

The saying you have to spend a dollar to make a dollar fits here perfectly. If the IBO would invest in their shooters then more shooters would invest into the IBO. 

You would see increased attendence, (which raising cost would decrease even more) Happier members, and more positive feedback for the future. To me this is what the IBO needs to focus on.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

goofy2788 said:


> I agree with everything here but the cost...I don't feel the cost to shoot should need to be increased more then the $42 dollars we already pay to shoot. The burden to increase payouts should lie in the hands of the IBO and all the corporate sponsers they have. (or new sponsors) A percentage of entry fee, percentage of sponser dollars, and a percentage of yearly dues fees should go into a payback pot to fund payouts.
> 
> Everyone compares the ASA payouts to the IBO's....NO one ever seems to compare entry cost. It's cheaper to shoot ASA bow novice (closest to hunter class) and they payout fairly deep into that class. How do they do that taking in less money then the IBO does??? Easy, they run the ASA as what it is, a competition based business. The IBO isn't, they are a legislature business that holds competition to help raise money to support the bowhunting cause.
> 
> ...


Everyone compares the IBO and ASA but they are 2 totally different business models and different shooter bases. I'm working on a proposal that I think everyone interested in shooting for money will like. It's going to be hard to please everyone and probably harder to convince the board a change is needed.

Also if you run the numbers the ASA pays back 70 percent of the entry fees in each class. The business models are just different.


----------



## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> Everyone compares the IBO and ASA but they are 2 totally different business models and different shooter bases. I'm working on a proposal that I think everyone interested in shooting for money will like. It's going to be hard to please everyone and probably harder to convince the board a change is needed.
> 
> Also if you run the numbers the ASA pays back 70 percent of the entry fees in each class. The business models are just different.


Exactly. ...that's the reason why the IBO doesn't pay out. I fully understand that...most don't apparently. I appreciate what you're attempting to do and fully support it as long as we the competitors aren't made to foot the bill to get the payouts.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

goofy2788 said:


> Exactly. ...that's the reason why the IBO doesn't pay out. I fully understand that...most don't apparently. I appreciate what you're attempting to do and fully support it as long as we the competitors aren't made to foot the bill to get the payouts.


The entry fee will be slightly less than the $57 you have to pay now to shoot for money. Except for MBO. I think matching ASA's $60 entry fee is best for that class.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

goofy2788 said:


> There is a money class for hunters...it's called Advanced Hunter Class, it's forty yards max distance and uses the same equipment....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would you say a shooter is camping out in hunter class if they have never one any event not been kicked out due to the kick out rule why should they have to move to a different class did you ever look at how many shooters are in this class at least the top third are very good shooters if it's not worth being a money class why have it . Also think about all the money hunter class brings to these shoots why should they have to foot the bill for you guys who lay around in a so called money class with a dozen or so shooters in it just so you can be a big winner cause you beat a dozen or so people how about trying to win against a couple hundred


----------



## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

T&A said:


> Why would you say a shooter is camping out in hunter class if they have never one any event not been kicked out due to the kick out rule why should they have to move to a different class did you ever look at how many shooters are in this class at least the top third are very good shooters if it's not worth being a money class why have it . Also think about all the money hunter class brings to these shoots why should they have to foot the bill for you guys who lay around in a so called money class with a dozen or so shooters in it just so you can be a big winner cause you beat a dozen or so people how about trying to win against a couple hundred


And this mentality is exactly why you have the scores winning hunter class that you do. Hunter class is designed as nothing more then an entry level, introduction to 3D archery. If you look in the rule book it's considered a novice class. The whole point of the class is to get people involved in 3d. In its current state it actually drives away new competitors. The whole thought of why leave if I haven't won is asinine. ..especially when hunter class guys are wanting to get paid. If you are a novice/ rookie/ guy who may shoot 1 national a year fine stay in hunter. If you've been in the ibo for a few years come to ahc....the only reason hunter is the largest class is because of the thought of why leave if I don't win....if they changed the name to beginner hunter do you think there would still be 300 guys trying to be the best beginner? Guess what...in technical terms that's what the winner of hunter class is...the best of the beginner, entry level class.

Bottom line. If you want to shoot for money then move to a class that offers a payout. If 200 of those hunter class shooters fid that then what ever class they chose would become the "largest" class.


----------



## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

Oh and to add...I've never shot hunter class in the ibo. My first year ever competition was in mbo...yep I sucked, but I tried. Since then I've been in ahc...I've never won, never posted a top 10 finish...but although I've been asked by many people to try it I will never step down to hunter.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Thanks outback for your effort. I hope the ibo listens to you.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

outbackarcher said:


> Everyone compares the IBO and ASA but they are 2 totally different business models and different shooter bases. I'm working on a proposal that I think everyone interested in shooting for money will like. It's going to be hard to please everyone and probably harder to convince the board a change is needed.
> 
> Also if you run the numbers the ASA pays back 70 percent of the entry fees in each class. The business models are just different.


Isn't it strange that the profit organization pays back 70% and the non-profit organization pays back 20%?


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Fire Archer said:


> Isn't it strange that the profit organization pays back 70% and the non-profit organization pays back 20%?


The towns pay the ASA a pretty good sum to come and hold a tournament. The towns also supply all the meals, rooms, Porta johns, everything needed to hold the event. Like I say it's a different business model.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

outbackarcher said:


> The towns pay the ASA a pretty good sum to come and hold a tournament. The towns also supply all the meals, rooms, Porta johns, everything needed to hold the event. Like I say it's a different business model.


I didn't know that about the towns helping out the ASA but there is still no reason that the IBO only has an approximate 20% payback. Why don't the IBO try to get help like that? You are on the right track though. I am sure a lot of people appreciate your efforts.


----------



## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

Outbackarcher you have given us two great shoots and you are trying to do great things for us as ibo shooters I thank you for your efforts I know it will be an uphill battle all the way and there will never be a way to please everybody but I believe you will make it better if you get the go ahead thanks again


----------



## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

Larry is exactly what the IBO needs, someone who listens to the shooters and is willing to try things and make improvements. I had hoped for change with the last change in president, but not much has changed. It's gotten better, but no where near what it could be. I really enjoy the IBO shoots, but the World Championship is so far ahead of the Triple Crown shoots. Even the vendors see it, I was told there were 42 vendors at the ASA shoot in Kentucky, I think there were 17 at Erie. Lancaster wasn't even there. If the vendors aren't attending the shoots, how long until they pull their contingency money for shooters and sponsorship money for the IBO????


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

It will be an uphill battle for him so we need to stand behind him all the way. It amazes me the amount of people that love the World shoot but don't want the triple crown to go to same format. Why would you not want the sport you are competing in to grow? Larry would make a good IBO pres.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Fire Archer said:


> It will be an uphill battle for him so we need to stand behind him all the way. It amazes me the amount of people that love the World shoot but don't want the triple crown to go to same format. Why would you not want the sport you are competing in to grow? Larry would make a good IBO pres.


Think about that for a minute. Think about what the biggest difference is between the two formats. I think there are MORE people that don't like the Triple Crown format and consequently choose not to to shoot them. If you enjoy competition archery then the IBO format outside of Worlds is not something you like and most likely find simply wrong.

A few years ago after shooting more IBO tournaments than ASA tournaments I chose to shoot more ASA and completely drop the IBO. I was shooting AHC in IBO and Hunter in the ASA. I was shooting a whopping 280 fps but I still initially liked the idea of the IBO better but that did not last very long. Heck, in any of our local money shoots, ASA state qualifiers and ASA state championships we are peer grouped. But take time off from work, drive all day and buy a few nights in a hotel and then shoot "against" guys that were shooting with their best friends and/or family! No thank you........ I drove 12 hours each way to shoot ASA in Metropolis, Illinois last weekend. Before that I drove 10 hours each way to ASA shoots in Alabama and Florida but only drove 8 hours each way to shoot in London, KY. While I haven't even looked at the IBO schedule but I now see that I "missed" the IBO in WV (4 hours), Ohio (7.5 hours), Erie (7.25 hours) and I have no intention of going to World's (7.5 hours). So far I've driven 80 hours to shoot four ASA events while could have only driven 52.5 hours to shoot for "national" IBO events. I know I've got more bang for my buck from the ASA events than I would have from IBO events even though the total cost was probably double.

I haven't even bothered to shoot a local IBO shoot in a few years. It would take a LOT of changing on the IBO's part for a lot of years before I'd commit to shooting much if any IBO again..........unless I seriously went away from competitive 3D. In which I might only seriously bow hunt and a spend a lot more time fishing.

The way the ASA courses are laid out and the way the way they peer group creates peer pressure to NOT be a jerk (pressing for wide scoring ring)! Think about it, the group of strangers I'm pressing to fudge arrow calling today will be in other groups at the next shoot. If I behave like a jerk word gets around QUICKLY!!!!!

IBO needs to change:
- Peer group by draw. Avoid any appearance of possible impropriety by moving "friends".
- Set shooting times.
- Completely separate the money and trophy classes. I know it may be necessary to have a group or two with mixed trophy and money archers.
- For family and social friendly purposes seriously consider making the course more "friendly" to an audience. I am not saying the course must be set like the ASA. But it may be time to move away from course trails on rugged mountain ski slopes. The shoots could still be at ski resorts with an eye to folks having better access and the archers being more visible. 

Outbackcarcher and Goofy have the right ideas. If I didn't know better I'd think that Outbackarcher was hosting ASA shoots with his open minded attitude and an ear to the ground!!


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

I am just referring to the guys that do shoot the Triple Crown and like the World format but don't want the NTC to go to that format. I totally agree that the IBO needs to make changes. A lot of changes. As it is you could honestly win them all but never actually get 1st place.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

I have sent the proposal to Bryan. I am waiting on his response before we release it for everyone to look at.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

So Kent we can assume you voted no? I believe a lot of the ASA and former IBO guys will also wait and see. Like i said before i like the option to shoot Fri sat and sunday, 40 in a day if you choose. Its still be a level playing filed because everyone has that choice. Yes friends need to be split up and every national and most local shoots(IBO and non IBO) i have attended they have done that. Yes payouts need to be better. and firearcher cheating can happen in any org. I would NOT make the blanket statement that all winners in ASA have rangefinder binoculars because someone in the the past did but this seams to be the the mentality when you guys talk about the IBO. It'll be interesting if IBO does make these changes, how many of you will show up. Outbackarcher, i salute your efforts. All shoot organizers should have your level of commitment.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

nochance said:


> So Kent we can assume you voted no? I believe a lot of the ASA and former IBO guys will also wait and see. Like i said before i like the option to shoot Fri sat and sunday, 40 in a day if you choose. Its still be a level playing filed because everyone has that choice. Yes friends need to be split up and every national and most local shoots(IBO and non IBO) i have attended they have done that. Yes payouts need to be better. and firearcher cheating can happen in any org. I would NOT make the blanket statement that all winners in ASA have rangefinder binoculars because someone in the the past did but this seams to be the the mentality when you guys talk about the IBO. It'll be interesting if IBO does make these changes, how many of you will show up. Outbackarcher, i salute your efforts. All shoot organizers should have your level of commitment.



I voted, "Yes, I would support it". That is NOT saying I would immediately start attending!


----------



## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

I'm heading to Marango next weekend. I will drive down Friday morning and shoot all 40 and drive home. This 2 day T time stuff would be a pain for many people. I hope this is not taken to seriously by the IBO.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

nochance said:


> and firearcher cheating can happen in any org. I would NOT make the blanket statement that all winners in ASA have rangefinder binoculars because someone in the the past did but this seams to be the the mentality when you guys talk about the IBO.
> 
> You are right, there are low lifes in every type of competition that do not want to put the effort in to be a true winner but they do want the notoriety so they will cheat to win. I have never said that every single person in IBO is cheating. I have met some of the nicest, most honest guys I know while shooting in IBO shoots but if you think that cheaters are few and far between in IBO then you are only fooling yourself. Furthermore, I would say that the majority (not all) of the guys that are against the tee time ideas are the weekend warriors that don't do a whole lot of winning or shooting but do enjoy shooting 3D archery occasionally.


----------



## glennx (Oct 7, 2006)

The IBO has its head stuck in the sand.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

I will say this again so the weekend warriors can read it. The trophy classes will not change. You can shoot at your leisure just like you do know. The money classes will have an increased payout and tee times to make it more organized. The proposal covers about everything.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

rockyw said:


> I'm heading to Marango next weekend. I will drive down Friday morning and shoot all 40 and drive home. This 2 day T time stuff would be a pain for many people. I hope this is not taken to seriously by the IBO.


Pain or not. It will be the fairest way to do it.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Larry
food for thought. Whats going to happen if you have bad weather? Just wanting all bases covered.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

outbackarcher said:


> I will say this again so the weekend warriors can read it. The trophy classes will not change. You can shoot at your leisure just like you do know. The money classes will have an increased payout and tee times to make it more organized. The proposal covers about everything.


AT needs a LIKE button.



stoz said:


> Larry
> food for thought. Whats going to happen if you have bad weather? Just wanting all bases covered.


I would think that if the money shooters shot on Friday and Saturday then Sunday could be a make up day if needed.


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

stoz said:


> Larry
> food for thought. Whats going to happen if you have bad weather? Just wanting all bases covered.


Just like ASA you get 200 points for 20 targets turns into a one day shoot, can't predict the weather


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Fire Archer said:


> AT needs a LIKE button.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think that if the money shooters shot on Friday and Saturday then Sunday could be a make up day if needed.


That would effect travel plans. You get 200 points just like ASA.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

but.... if you only shoot 20 due to weather, wouldn't that mean half shot 20 and half shot the other 20, which would not be a level playing field?


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

nochance said:


> but.... if you only shoot 20 due to weather, wouldn't that mean half shot 20 and half shot the other 20, which would not be a level playing field?


The entire class shoots the same 20 at the same time.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

Garceau said:


> That would effect travel plans. You get 200 points just like ASA.


I am not rich by any means but if I am shooting fairly well and a day gets rained out then I am going to find a way to stay and shoot the next day if that is what it takes. There is no sport that is cheap if you want to be able to compete at the top. If you going to play then you got to pay. The way the IBO sets ranges, it would probably be hard for them to get everyone on the same 20 targets each day. Which would make it unfair if the class did compete on two different ranges and a day got cancelled.


----------



## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

There's no way you can get all of some classes thru 20 in one day. I just don't see it happening unless you shoot like the worlds and have sunday as weather day. Its not going to be fair to shoot seperate courses and call it on 20.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Fire Archer said:


> I am not rich by any means but if I am shooting fairly well and a day gets rained out then I am going to find a way to stay and shoot the next day if that is what it takes. There is no sport that is cheap if you want to be able to compete at the top.


That's what we had to do in Erie.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

I think one thing everyone is not taking into consideration is there will also be a trophy class. MBO in Erie only had like 70 that paid into the pot. We can get those through the same range in one day fairly easy.
Now as more people move to the money classes I can see it causing more ranges to have to be set.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

If the ranges are properly set, you can do 100 shooters easily. 105 with a sit out.....


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Garceau said:


> If the ranges are properly set, you can do 100 shooters easily. 105 with a sit out.....


5 to a stake with the IBO format causes many more issues than 5 to a stake in the ASA format.. There are no upper 11's to call if the lower gets packed. As much as I would love to see some changes in the IBO, this is going to be a hard sell. 
All the Triple Crown events should have the same format as Worlds or they are just a big club shoot and not a National. Will the IBO be willing to go the extra mile, I highly doubt it..


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I don't know if will cause issues. As long as everyone is 4 of 5 to a stake its even. 

But I said you can do 100, don't have too. 

But even in ASA open A they are on 2 different ranges at times and they swap the next day. It's not ideal if it rains out. But with larger numbers its the only way if you maintain tee times.


----------



## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

I think Larry is trying , and thank you something has to change , remember one thing there is always more people that set back and never say a word but, will love to see a change


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

outbackarcher said:


> I think one thing everyone is not taking into consideration is there will also be a trophy class. MBO in Erie only had like 70 that paid into the pot. We can get those through the same range in one day fairly easy.
> Now as more people move to the money classes I can see it causing more ranges to have to be set.[/QUOTE
> 
> I think if you get the money class ran like it should be then there will be a lot more than 70 shooters. Does the ASA have trophy classes?


----------



## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

rockyw said:


> I'm heading to Marango next weekend. I will drive down Friday morning and shoot all 40 and drive home. This 2 day T time stuff would be a pain for many people. I hope this is not taken to seriously by the IBO.


Another " DISAGREE" vote.
I'll second that motion.


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> Another " DISAGREE" vote.
> I'll second that motion.


I didn't look back to see if we have discussed this but what class do you compete in? 

If you are going to compete for money why wouldn't you want structure for the event and have it more professionally ran? 

It you just want to shoot for a trophy we have you covered for that.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

outbackarcher said:


> I didn't look back to see if we have discussed this but what class do you compete in?
> 
> If you are going to compete for money why wouldn't you want structure for the event and have it more professionally ran?
> 
> It you just want to shoot for a trophy we have you covered for that.


It's just the weekend warriors. Most of them (not all) just want to be a part of the big dance so they can go and buy a t-shirt, spend a ton of money thinking new equipment is going to put them at the top, brag about it at work and make all their co-workers think could be an Olympic gold medalist in archery. They want to try and spoil it for the guy that wants it structured like it should be and actually has a chance at winning. Don't even have a trophy class. You want to show everyone your weekend 3d skills then pay up.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Fire Archer said:


> outbackarcher said:
> 
> 
> > I think one thing everyone is not taking into consideration is there will also be a trophy class. MBO in Erie only had like 70 that paid into the pot. We can get those through the same range in one day fairly easy.
> ...


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Fire Archer said:
> 
> 
> > There are no adult trophy classes at the national ASA shoots.
> ...


----------



## tshoyt23 (Apr 21, 2009)

I attended my first ASA National Tournament two weeks ago in Metropolis. Either the southern shooters love archery a lot more than us people up north, or they are doing something very right. Walking through the vendor area was like walking through a fairground, but with archers everywhere! It was great. 
I am not one to say I would not shoot IBO because I love to shoot my bow, so I’ll shoot anywhere that will have me. But I can say that the turn out in Erie was almost sad….. Not a lot of shooters and the vendors were very few. I know there was the Youth World archery event going on, but it really has been that way for a few years now.
I think the IBO stands for a great thing, I’d hate to see it go away….. it needs to grow, and change is probably the only way it is going to happen. You can’t make everyone happy…… but there sure seems to be a lot of happy people shooting in these ASA events. I’d love to see the IBO catch up.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Ironically - the number of vendors at Metro was way down...... not sure why. Usually all the tents are full of vendors.


----------



## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

If most of the weekend warriors don't want to pay to play with the big boys and have to have a trophy class, then it would be nice if 50% of their entry fees went to the money classes. I know it would never happen in millions of years. LOL. I think there should be more focus on getting the money classes where they ought to be and not worry about trophy classes right now, if ever. I wasn't sure but I didn't think ASA had them. If guys want to shoot their bow that weekend, then there is a good chance there will be a local shoot for them to attend. IMO, the only thing accomplished by winning a trophy class is proving that you are the best of the worst.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Fire Archer said:


> If most of the weekend warriors don't want to pay to play with the big boys and have to have a trophy class, then it would be nice if 50% of their entry fees went to the money classes. I know it would never happen in millions of years. LOL. I think there should be more focus on getting the money classes where they ought to be and not worry about trophy classes right now, if ever. I wasn't sure but I didn't think ASA had them. If guys want to shoot their bow that weekend, then there is a good chance there will be a local shoot for them to attend. IMO, the only thing accomplished by winning a trophy class is proving that you are the best of the worst.


Beast of the least!


----------



## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

Calling people weekend warriors will really help grow the sport.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

It seems as though some guys are pretty full of themselves.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

hoytxcutter said:


> Calling people weekend warriors will really help grow the sport.





nochance said:


> It seems as though some guys are pretty full of themselves.


I apologize for being rude....... I typed it because it sounded "funny" and did not think about how rude it really was. My apologies.


----------

