# whats the most common mistake you see?



## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Bow grip is #1 in my book. That's for all styles C bow, target recurve & trad.
#2 is too much weight. Again all styles.

Arne


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

people using the sight pin as their trigger


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Most of my shooting is at public ranges. I see many, many people trying to shoot a bow that have no clue about it. I guess, the #1 thing I see, even with archers who are somewhat accurate, is draw length. Always too long by a little or a lot. Sometimes I see people anchoring with the nock at about their ear. Also, my experience is the same as Rugby. Almost all are using the sight picture to ignite their release. 

The one thing that I always try to step in on, is when parents bring their young children out for the 1st time and set the kid up to shoot at 20 or 30 yards. A great way to turn a kid OFF of archery. 

Most of the inexperience archers I see, have arrows that are way too stiff for their bows. Not a big problem for the ones shooting compound, but the traditional archers seem to just pick up the cheapest arrows at the big box. 

Strangely, about 3 or 4 times a year, I see people with recurves strung backwards. Most are grateful when I step in, but one guy with a new, expensive yumi wouldn't listen. About 15 minutes later, when he left the range, his bow was in two pieces. I'm not sure, but I think he was crying. 

I've also seen some excellent archers. They are few & far between, but they really stand out from the normal public range archers. 

Public ranges - archery at it's worst and sometimes at it's best.


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## morey_b (Oct 22, 2013)

Rugby said:


> people using the sight pin as their trigger


Can you elaborate on this? Im not sure what that means.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

example; my pins on the x .... its off..... its on..... its off .....BANG.......


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## morey_b (Oct 22, 2013)

And what is the correct way to go about it? I've never taken a lesson and am self taught. Thanks.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Execute the shot with the same pace & rhythm regardless of what you are seeing in your scope.

Most compound archers will do better taking the shot execution to the subconscious level by massive numbers of repetitions on a blank bale followed by a disciplined bridge. 

Once a smooth execution is developed to the subconscious level, the archer can start the execution consciously, then turn their total conscious focus to aiming. 

This is not easy. For the hardheaded cases like me it can take years to develop enough trust in every part of your shot to let your execution run without mentally checking on it. Many can do it much faster, so don't be discouraged from trying to achieve this. It's worth it when you can just stand there, look at the X and everything else is on autopilot. Shooting good scores becomes almost effortless. 

Find a good coach that understands how to use a blank bale. It will take you a lot less time than trying to do it yourself.

Allen


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Too long or too short in draw length and executing with a dead shot (no back tension). Many folks are taught bad habit s from the get-go, especially release shooters that identify all shooting sports with pulling a trigger. IMHO the worst device that ever came to archery is the wrist caliper release. The second is 80% let-off or zero let-off like in the genesis bows that many kids are beginning archery with these days. To perform archery correctly there has to be tension. It is what stabilization in built upon. Furthermore there has to be engagement of the rhomboids to perform a good shot. As a coach that is asked to work with a lot of NASP kids this drives me up a wall. I understand the universal application of the NASP equipment but it sure sets the young'uns up for failure when they transition to other archery venues. Without that forward force on the bow string or a solid wall to pull against it is tuff to build a repetitive shot execution. 

I would also second being over-bowed.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I'd say shooting with a bow that doesn't fit is the number one problem. The bow is typically too short and/or to heavy a draw weight, so the bow pulls them into really bad alignment, causes short drawing, snap shooting, etc. And, until you can get them away from that bow, you really can't fix any of the other issues.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

> The second is 80% let-off or zero let-off like in the genesis bows that many kids are beginning archery with these days. To perform archery correctly there has to be tension. It is what stabilization in built upon. Furthermore there has to be engagement of the rhomboids to perform a good shot. As a coach that is asked to work with a lot of NASP kids this drives me up a wall. I understand the universal application of the NASP equipment but it sure sets the young'uns up for failure when they transition to other archery venues.


Don't the 80% let off bows also have a hard wall? I don't shoot compound, so I just assumed people are pulling against the wall during shot execution. :dontknow:

Also, I'm not getting the issue with the zero let off Genesis bows. They have tension that is more even than even a recurve through their entire draw. Is it the lack of stacking that is the issue you are referring to?


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up KEEP THEM COMING !!!


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

THE GENESIS BOWS have no let off, the dl. is made to fit anyone it floats up to 31 it think not 100% on that but even when it reaches the max dl it can be pulled some more spongy wall... im seeing a lot of youth shooters with issues who were not schooled right and now that have now outgrown the bow and are ready to move up and have some real bad habits...you are spot on warbow, spot shy ..


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mike 66 said:


> :thumbs_up:thumbs_up KEEP THEM COMING !!!


So,
let me count the ways..(compound shooting):

1) anchor
2) bow draw length setting
3) peep sight too high
4) weight balance..massive weight shift on the rear leg
5) release side elbow alignment
6) shoulder alignment, while at full draw
7) lower body alignment, while at full draw
8) grip technique/bow hand position
9) wrist higher than the elbow (release side)
10) release side wrist BENT, pulling with the wrist into the wall, rather than the back muscles..MASSIVE tension in the forearm tensor muscles
11) sky high elbow (release side)
12) pulling into the wall with the bicep only (near zero involvement in the middle and upper trapezius)
13) using a crazy short d-loop, setting the d-loop based on LOOKS, appearance, copy cat method, cuz that's what "normal" is supposed to look like
14) HERO worship..if it works for .....(fill in the blank of the name of your FAVORITE PRO shooter)...then, it MUST work for me TOO!
15) copy cat for stabilizer weighting....follow the crowd...set the rods based on what the "crowd" says is the "RIGHT" way to do things....HERO worship again
16) OVER_FOCUS on one thing, hoping for the magic pill solution
17) impatience
18) inconsistent shot timing window..tempo, rhythm, cadence is lacking...insufficient training or lack of shot timing cadence training
19) lack of balance on the forwards follow through (bow side)..and..release arm follow through..upper body is NOT quiet, after the shot (freeze frame analysis)
20) mental focus
21) poor shot discipline..(the shot process is NOT ingrained into the nervous system...the shot process is NOT a reflex, near autonomous like breathing)
22) shooting system (bow and shooter) not optimized...system has room for MORE forgiveness (either on the bow part of the system or the shooter)
23) NOT modifying the "system" for...SLAP tears, herniated discs, pre-op for rotator cuff (headed for surgery....just not yet)...TOO much draw weight

off the top of my head.

I'm sure there's more.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm with Warbow and disagree with spotshy. The Genesis is the greatest beginner's/teaching bow made today! Yes, there is no let off, and yes, there is no wall; but for a bow that has a pretty universal draw length AND constant draw weight at any draw length without weight build up or let off -- beginners can learn good form WITH adaptability to EITHER a recurve OR a full up compound bow. I find it hard to believe that someone that works with NASP kids can't see the advantages of the Genesis. Don't mean any disrespect but I have students that have gone to both target recurve and compounds from the Genesis with GOOD form learned on the Genesis.

Arne


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

:thumbs_up KEEP THEM COMING


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

the genesis pro , has the same string lg and cable lg. as the original.. it has a cam stop which would make a release aid work better... dont see why you cant swap the cams...im not bashing the bow. the issue im seeing is the coaches in some schools are not doing the job they should. or the kids dont pay attention ... when i see a line full of kids shooting these most pull the d.l way to far...just my opinion t:


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

keep them coming... :director: post up


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Mike,

I am a HUGE!! fan of the NASP. The "coaches" in the program do a great job overall BUT... their training (Basic Archery Instructor BAI) by the NASP organization is rather lacking IMO. Here, locally, I have trained several school NASP BAI coaches to USA Archery Level 2 and given them MUCH more form information (NTS form) than they get with the BAI instruction. In the BAI, they get the individual items that they should try to get the shooters to do but NONE of the "why" it should work that way. I've had several tell me that if they get a shooter at the 260/300 or higher level, they are afraid to help more because they just don't know what else to do, or why, and they are afraid they may "screw the shooters up."

The coaches by in large are doing what they know to do (and doing what they know - well), they just don't get the level of training they should have in the NASP coach training system. And YES, I have taken and am an NASP BAI in addition to my L4 from USA Archery, there is just no comparison! There are always "levels" of competency for teachers/coaches, and there are always kids that don't listen or accept; but by and large those coaches do a fantastic job with what they are given == again IMO.

I'd go so far as to say that IF there are any L3 or higher couches out there that can see the huge resource in the NASP archery program to get out there and help the NASP BAI coaches not only with the program but with NTS training as well.

Off topic continued, but couldn't pass this up.

Arne


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

Arne.. i agree with you 100% didnt want you to think i was bashing , nasp ....or the bow... sounds like you see the same things..that i saw... i have been there and done that ..... you promote archery thats cool im my book..no matter what level....i would tell the couches if they dont like the way they shoot better change the way they practice.[ got that saying from sub]....and i like it more each time i use it....i see the same issues with some 4-h clubs even if your a cert. coach you gotta take the 4-h way of coaching training....most that i see the students are doing more teaching than the 4-h coaches and know more...than the coaches.... just my opinion...im not gonna even say what i think about the boy scouts/ girl scouts..and how they learn......but they promote archery....this is our future.keep them shooting...............mike


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

:focus: post up


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

mike 66 said:


> the genesis pro , has the same string lg and cable lg. as the original.. it has a cam stop which would make a release aid work better... dont see why you cant swap the cams...im not bashing the bow. the issue im seeing is the coaches in some schools are not doing the job they should. or the kids dont pay attention ... when i see a line full of kids shooting these most pull the d.l way to far...just my opinion t:


I wouldn't mind seeing the longer bow with the lighter draw weight range. Wondering if their is any way to do that... :dontknow:


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Maybe I should clarify. In regard to high let off, if one pulls hard with back tension into the wall they can work just fine. However I see many folks that use these bow hold the minimal holding weight with their arms and shoulder and fire the release with their hand or index finger. This is bad mojo!

Now on to the Genesis. IMHO the only advantage that the bow brings to the table is the aspect of universal use by participants. It provides a cost effective way to introduce youngsters of all sizes to the discipline. I am all for more youth in archery, that is why I coach youth but the Genesis design for developing archers can be tricky. Yes it can be done but you have to really stress hand and finger relaxation to allow for back tension to execute the shot. i just find it easier for kids to learn with a bit lower percentage of let-off. Even maxed out I find that the light/spongy holding weight can allow archers lose back tension and pluck the string at release. I most definitely would choose a better design for a youth that desired to be a release shooter.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

SpotShy said:


> i just find it easier for kids to learn with a bit lower percentage of let-off. Even maxed out I find that the light/spongy holding weight can allow archers lose back tension and pluck the string at release. I most definitely would choose a better design for a youth that desired to be a release shooter.


I'm still not getting why, if let off is bad, that you choose a bow with let off as better than the Genesis? Seems like the holding weight of a Genesis would be greater than that of a light draw weight bow with let off, so back tension shouldn't be an issue. :dontknow: Would the Genesis Pro, with it's adjustable draw stop address the issues you are running into?

I don't teach with Genesis bows for two reasons: mass weight and string angle. 

The Genesis bows are easy to pull back, but the mass weight is too much for some new shooters. And for finger shooting, the string angle is more acute than I'd like. 

(Ok, three reasons: I don't own any, either.  )

However, I do think that the Genesis bows do have some pretty neat features. I don't find the "spongy" quality to be an issue because I'm used to teaching with light draw weight recurves and I only shoot fingers. I can see that I might feel differently if I came from Compound shooting off a hard wall.


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