# indoor spots heavy aluminum vs light carbon



## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

You're not the only one. I've shot X7 2712s, heavy @ nearly 700 grain total for indoor spots.
I recently switched over to my 3d Setup, Superdrive 23s with 100 gr up front and total weight of 345, give or take.
I shoot similar scores but I find my bad shots aren't as bad, the setup is much more forgiving.
I always believed the heavier, slower arrow had more time to correct it's flight, but I'm not so sure now.

Good topic OP, curious on other's thoughts as well.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

My bet is that it's subjective at best.

What does "I score better" mean? Very few take the time to track their scores much less perform statistical analyses of their scores and plots. Outside of other shooting factors; like equipment changes, tune matching the arrow better, or just plain old shooting better has a lot of influence on score. 

Aluminum has been shown to be more consistent in construction and spine over decades. That's the good thing about them. They're good enough to score a WA 600 qualifier for Mike Schloesser.

Carbon can be consistent, but usually in smaller batches...like a dozen. They're more durable and imo less expensive over time. They're good enough to score a WA 600 qualifier for Stephan Hansen. 


Really, I think it boils down to your belief in "lock time" and how much one can really influence a shot arrow.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Honestly, I don’t think it matters at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I’m not even sure shaft diameter even matters. I’ve proven to myself twice this last week that I can shoot pretty much the same scores with my Pierce Tours as I do with my Triple Xs.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Here's a tip from Tim Gillingham. I've read this so many times and it seems making a arrow too heavy may not be the thing to do. So regardless of aluminum or carbon keep speed up to over 200 fps? You decide and I like what Tim has, shoot for a week or so when testing. 
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2424160&p=1072409232#post1072409232


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> I’m not even sure shaft diameter even matters. I’ve proven to myself twice this last week that I can shoot pretty much the same scores with my Pierce Tours as I do with my Triple Xs.
> 
> View attachment 6391817


Nice shootin' Casey!

The middle is the middle - the shaft diameter doesn't have much to do with it. If your arrow prints where your dot is on the target, most straight arrows are going hit where they should. 
I just found some of my target faces from October: X10 PT's shooting 296-298 with 17-20X's. I feel it had way more to do with the confidence I had back then. Then I shot X23's for a while and shot the same scores, hmmm...
My Triple X's are sitting in the garage and the X27's are in my quiver as they have been run through a shooter and all hit the same hole. I track all my scores but I really haven't shot fatty carbons for years so I don't have any data on them. I do have data on GT22's and once I nock tuned them in a shooter, they are on par with my 2712's for scoring. I'll find out at the USA 25M in a month or so.
YMMV.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

More years ago than I care to admit, I switched from hunting size arrows to 2613's. My scores improved by about 10 points per round. However, I had just started indoor and my normal scores were mediocre at best. So I had a lot of room for improvement. 

For guys shooting good scores, it probably matters much less. The last time Dave Barnesdale won Vegas, he was shooting hunting size arrows, not the fat shafts. As Rick! posted, the middle is the middle for the better shooters. But for us lesser lights, the line cutting can help scores.

As for aluminum vs. carbon, it didn't matter to me. A good shot puts them in the middle and a bad shot doesn't.

Allen


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Rick! said:


> Nice shootin' Casey!
> 
> The middle is the middle - the shaft diameter doesn't have much to do with it. If your arrow prints where your dot is on the target, most straight arrows are going hit where they should.


I would argue that all arrows will hit behind the pin if they are adequately matched. Variances are simply a matter of hold if all else is equal. 

The reason I say this is due to the vast differences in set ups used by the best in the world, all producing the same results. And also my own experience. The “forgiveness” factor is something I believe very few people benefit from. 

I’m not going to state my theory here, but as you go up in arrow diameter, your misses will go further from center and it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with correct spine. You just have to decide whether the line grabbing advantage outweighs the accuracy advantage.


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## bigbuck270 (Oct 12, 2006)

OK so let me redirect this conversation a little. Yes any arrow should hit where you aim and yes you can score high with narrow arrows. What I've heard though is a heavy arrow leaves the bow slower and thus is affected more by the shooter (torque, follow through, ect). One shoot claims that when he misses, his misses are not as bad with a triple X as they are with a 2712. Again, perhaps this is just the shooter. I'm just curious if people have found carbon to be more accurate or their scores a little higher when they switched to carbon.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

bigbuck270 said:


> OK so let me redirect this conversation a little. Yes any arrow should hit where you aim and yes you can score high with narrow arrows. What I've heard though is a heavy arrow leaves the bow slower and thus is affected more by the shooter (torque, follow through, ect). One shoot claims that when he misses, his misses are not as bad with a triple X as they are with a 2712. Again, perhaps this is just the shooter. I'm just curious if people have found carbon to be more accurate or their scores a little higher when they switched to carbon.


I thought Bob answered that question rather well above. I’ve shot 29-30x Vegas games with everything from full length 2712s with 300 gr points to Triple Xs cut just beyond the rest, with 150 gr points. You tune your bow to your arrows and hold the dot in the middle. Get those two things figured out and it doesn’t matter which you choose.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Once I became a decent shooter I never went back to shooting indoor with my small diameter hunting type arrows, I go from 3d arrows to my indoor specific stuff. I really don't see a big difference in scoring either.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One thing I really like about my indoor arrows is that they never change, No matter how much I shoot them they are dependable and tough and when I check them in the hooter shooter they are the same as the day I group tuned them. I have never shot aluminum arrows so I can not tell you my findings with them long term as far as holding a group tune.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

bigbuck270 said:


> OK so let me redirect this conversation a little. Yes any arrow should hit where you aim and yes you can score high with narrow arrows. What I've heard though is a heavy arrow leaves the bow slower and thus is affected more by the shooter (torque, follow through, ect). One shoot claims that when he misses, his misses are not as bad with a triple X as they are with a 2712. Again, perhaps this is just the shooter. I'm just curious if people have found carbon to be more accurate or their scores a little higher when they switched to carbon.


This debate about how fast an arrow gets out of the bow vs forgiveness, etc., comes around fairly regularly. And in fact, it's been a debate going on for decades - I first encountered it in the late 80's when I first started shooting. 

But so far, it basically has kept its status as an Old Wives Tale more than anything with much truth to it. The fact is even the slowest compound bow gets the arrow out of it and well on its way to the target, if not already stuck into it, by the time the shooter could react to perturb the firing of the bow. Any input that does make a difference is already there long before the release goes off and once the release does fire, the shot is basically 6 feet under/on its way to the Pearly Gates of Heaven already. 

That's just the long way of saying the "lock time" plus the duration of the recovery of the bow to brace height should be at the bottom of the list of things on your mind when you're on the line shooting. Down there with knock travel and cam lean and those types of non-problems that only hinder your score and never help it.

As for aluminums vs carbons, I personally haven't noticed any difference indoors that I've been able to tell. The material is far less important than the diameter and spine, another thing to put down near the bottom of the list of items to worry about on the shooting line.

At my level, I've even shot the same scores indoors with my ACE 470 outdoors arrows as with my GT 400s. Course, the better shooters will be able to tell a difference.

Outdoors, of course, all this is significantly more critical (except the arrow-out-of-the-bow thing mentioned above, which is never a worry)....

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

cbrunson said:


> I’m not even sure shaft diameter even matters. I’ve proven to myself twice this last week that I can shoot pretty much the same scores with my Pierce Tours as I do with my Triple Xs.
> 
> View attachment 6391817


Nicely done! You know, even for an "x" hunter I only see maybe three x's left on the table with the outdoor arrows. Those little orange dots are in trouble.



bigbuck270 said:


> ...One shoot claims that when he misses, his misses are not as bad with a triple X as they are with a 2712...


 If he's tuned closer to or for XXXs, then I'm sure he does. If he tuned closer to the 2712 side of things it'd show opposite.

If you shoot three well-matched 2712s out of a hooter shooter they'll make a hole that fits inside a Vegas X ring. If you shoot three well matched GT XXX out of that hooter shooter, they'll make a hole that also fits inside the Vegas X. Now look at the targets by the best shooters in the world (Perkins, Schloesser, Hansen, Broadwater, etc.) and over 30/60 arrows they'll have holes just a little bigger than the X ring. Basically, an "inside out" 300 is some awesome shooting, world class even that will get you 30 x's with anything bigger than a 23 series. 

That's how good they hold in the 10/X ring. They shoot just about every brand of arrow of carbon and of course the E-aluminums. Occasionally they all miss. It's got nothing to do with the arrow when they do. Don't you think that if they felt an arrows material had an advantage that they'd switch to it instead?

IMO, you're shooting acquaintance that feels one type scores better than it's counterpart is cheating himself. He's giving credit to a dumb arrow. Dumb arrows go where we put them. Given matched arrows and a reasonably good tune and sight in well you can expect a nine when the dot breaks in the nine. An arrow is not going to magically find the ten ring because it's faster. 

Under the same conditions an arrow that breaks in the ten is going to hit the ten. If it doesn't it's because something else in the setup (shooter) wasn't right. Period. A lot of this unintelligent equipment gets more credit and blame than it really deserves. Shooters often equate pure score to their equipment choices:

Monday - shooting PS-26s. Not an easy shooting day after working hard and rushing to the range, but grind through for a solid 298-23X.

Wednesday - decide to try some GT XXXs from a buddy. Easy day at work and haven't shot in a couple days so you're hungry to shoot. Holding is solid, small, and everything is easy. Shoot a tidy little 300-27X.

Saturday - Long work day at the range and work on form while trying some 2712s. New form tweak feels good so you shoot a game and shoot a 300 21x. X's might be higher, but you reverted back to your old form a couple times but still catch 10s. 

...many, many shooters will pick their arrow on just such a scenario. In reality, they're probably all matched well enough to meet or exceed the shooters ability and I wouldn't come to any kind of any statistical comparison to determine "these score better than those" with less than 1,000 arrows of each to make sure you're catching the shooter on the good days and the tough grind-out a score kind of days. Scores are easy with either type arrow when you're shooting good.


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## bowshootn70 (Oct 15, 2017)

cbrunson said:


> I’m not even sure shaft diameter even matters. I’ve proven to myself twice this last week that I can shoot pretty much the same scores with my Pierce Tours as I do with my Triple Xs.
> 
> View attachment 6391817


From what I see 27”s would have given you 30 x count being poi was the same. So a BIGGGGGG difference to me


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

bowshootn70 said:


> From what I see 27”s would have given you 30 x count being poi was the same. So a BIGGGGGG difference to me


Each one touching the ten line would miss the X with a 27. I can see six.


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## bigbuck270 (Oct 12, 2006)

Great conversation. I guess I'll stick with my 2712s........for today anyway! LOL


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

if I am not mistaking, that middle circle in yellow doesn't exist anymore...you must have stack up with paper targets pretty well :wink:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Bobmuley said:


> Under the same conditions an arrow that breaks in the ten is going to hit the ten. If it doesn't it's because something else in the setup (shooter) wasn't right. Period. A lot of this unintelligent equipment gets more credit and blame than it really deserves. Shooters often equate pure score to their equipment choices.


That’s pretty much what it boils down to right there. ^^^^

Our equipment doesn’t behave differently. It always does the same thing. Errors are on us. Fit, form, and execution included.


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