# Texas Shoot Out - A horrid affair



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Heat was debilitating for some, I'm sure. But not for someone who is acclimated and prepared. Archery tournaments are shot all over the world in conditions some would consider "debilitating" including the 2004 Olympics in Athens when the temperature on the stadium floor in the afternoon sessions was easily over 105 degrees. 

Last weekend was hot alright, but not "that" hot for us locals.

The rest of your criticisms come from, I would hope, someone with a vast amount of tournament hosting experience at the national/USAT/Oly. trials level. But probably not.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

For the 10 years I've been attending them at College Station, tournaments run by Texas A&M have always been top notch in layout and execution. I've talked to many friends who were there this past weekend competing, and none of them mentioned any of the OP's complaints, other than some comments about "it was hot, and windy."


----------



## DNez2001 (Sep 3, 2017)

I hit all the USAT events this year, and I have run very large national sporting events of a similar nature. It appeared to me that TAMU decided to purchase a boatload of 10x10 pop-up tents from Academy, rather than rent the larger tents often seen at USAT events. They lined the pop-ups 2-deep down the field, and staked them down. However the Friday thunderstorm brought severe winds that tested their strength and integrity. The pop-ups do not provide quite the amount and consistency of shade that the larger rental tents do, and the canopy above the archers is not nearly as high, so moving bows and equipment around is a lot more difficult. There were no rental folding tables under the tents, but there were plenty of rental folding chairs for archers and associates to sit.

That said, the event was run well. Bales were in good shape, lines marked. Clocks ran and worked. Plenty of judges. They decided not to mount the elimination scoreboards under the bales. The vendor tents and food trucks were there to assist and provide a minimum of atmosphere. For some reason, the afternoon line did not start at 1pm - more like 1:20pm.

If I had any constructive criticism, there were not enough water jugs, and they relied on bottled water on Sunday, both were short of what was needed and not adequately dispersed. The player package was useless, but so were the ones at the US Outdoor Nationals and some of the other USATs. There should probably be better value in these packages to satisfy the masses and leave them with a better feeling about the event. They provided a free bbq brisket lunch on Saturday, however many on the pm line did not eat, because they did not want to get weighed down by the heavy lunch. Would have been nice to have that bbq AFTER the pm shoot.

The wind was the strongest of any of the events this year, and strongest I've shot in my short career. I gotta work on this, as our range is pretty sheltered. The heat was similar to Gainesville, with less humidity. The forecast was spot on for a week - low to mid 90's and windy - 20% chance of rain. If you weren't prepared, you should have known better.


----------



## aavaaz (Jan 11, 2018)

DNez2001 said:


> I hit all the USAT events this year, and I have run very large national sporting events of a similar nature. It appeared to me that TAMU decided to purchase a boatload of 10x10 pop-up tents from Academy, rather than rent the larger tents often seen at USAT events. They lined the pop-ups 2-deep down the field, and staked them down. However the Friday thunderstorm brought severe winds that tested their strength and integrity. The pop-ups do not provide quite the amount and consistency of shade that the larger rental tents do, and the canopy above the archers is not nearly as high, so moving bows and equipment around is a lot more difficult. There were no rental folding tables under the tents, but there were plenty of rental folding chairs for archers and associates to sit.
> 
> That said, the event was run well. Bales were in good shape, lines marked. Clocks ran and worked. Plenty of judges. They decided not to mount the elimination scoreboards under the bales. The vendor tents and food trucks were there to assist and provide a minimum of atmosphere. For some reason, the afternoon line did not start at 1pm - more like 1:20pm.
> 
> ...


If people could read or took the time to do so, they would not be so quick on the draw. No one is complaining about the weather. Mere mention of severe weather is not a complaint. I wrote, "weather is weather and no one can control it. I am referring to the lack of organization and preparedness. In addition to your observations outlined above, there was no signage. Approaching the event venue, I never saw a single sign guiding guests to the event. TS did not have the pedigree of an Olympic trial event. But I can understand if folks have never been exposed to a real Olympic trial event in other countries and accept TS as a standard. As I said before, the Nationals in Ohio were nicely organised with plenty of signage and beautiful, effective canopy. It was evident that the organizers had put in an effort for the event to look the part in stark contrast to TS.


----------



## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Always be prepared for anything.


----------



## aavaaz (Jan 11, 2018)

wv hoyt man said:


> Always be prepared for anything.


Ofcourse no argument there.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> TS did not have the pedigree of an Olympic trial event. But I can understand if folks have never been exposed to a real Olympic trial event in other countries and accept TS as a standard.


If you have, please share where and when.

You may not be aware of the fact that the Texas Shootout has been used as an Olympic Trials event for the past three cycles (two of which I and my students shot) and I cannot remember anyone ever complaining so much.


----------



## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

The 10 x 10 tents were basically the same as the ones they used 2 years ago, not ideal as they cannot be placed right next to each other to maximize the shade as a whole. We all just made due by shifting, tilting etc... as the day moved on to keep some shade .

I found the set up a little better this year than 2 years ago.

I've helped with tournament set up/tear down etc... at events and ALWAYS have a great appreciation for the volunteers putting these events on.

Overall to me, the event flowed smoothly.

The heat at times felt really good (coming from MN where we have had 60 degrees)


----------



## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

aavaaz said:


> This has to be the worst tournament organized by inept officials with little or no oversight from equally indifferent or inept USAA. 105 degrees in the sun, storms, rain (archers exposed) and very windy. Heat was debilitating and induced incoherence. Top archers struggled and I witnessed meltdown on the line. But weather is weather and no one can control that. What can be controlled and improved, is predictions, organisation and preparation.
> 
> Both the venue and preparations were hastily put together. It looked like a garage sale in someones back yard on a mega scale. The tents were so flimsy they blew and fell on people equipment and barely provided any shade or shelter from heavy rain when up. Some of them were only secured with a single peg despite the weather warnings. The event seemed to be hastily and cheaply organized quite unlike the Nationals in Ohio which was a class act. If GmbH is watching, I for one would be ashamed to call this a US Olympic trial. Shame on USAA and the organizers. Political correctness can take a hike. They have some nerve charging athletes and their families top dollar for what essentially was a dismal affair.
> 
> I'm all for a good challenge both skill and element-wise but naming a disorganized tailgate party an Olympic trial is shameful to say the least.


Weather sounds like normal Texas weather to me. Dunno about you but when shooting in a region, I kinda expect certain weather, it is part of the whole archery thing to acclimate to weather and prep to shoot as best as you can in it.

Those tents were there at previous Shootouts too and that arrangement sounds like a typical USAT. A&M runs a pretty good tournament in my experience and TS has been a leg of the trials for a while.


----------



## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

bruce_m said:


> The 10 x 10 tents were basically the same as the ones they used 2 years ago, not ideal as they cannot be placed right next to each other to maximize the shade as a whole. We all just made due by shifting, tilting etc... as the day moved on to keep some shade .
> 
> I found the set up a little better this year than 2 years ago.
> 
> ...


Do you think the weather was worse or better this time around? 2 years ago the weather was NUTS.


----------



## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

Two years ago was our first experience with Texas and first USAT for our son. We had attended a couple JOAD Nationals but that was the first USAT event, so overall a lot of it was a blur. The USAT's move a little faster/slower at times. Definitely a different feel.

What I recall, seemed similar. But as I said that is my recollection.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Just for pure discussion - what event would the OP consider as a "properly" run USAT? If Texas was "poorly" run, then which USAT would be the one that is considered well run? And what features are there which makes that USAT rise above everything else?

-Steve


----------



## aavaaz (Jan 11, 2018)

Beastmaster said:


> Just for pure discussion - what event would the OP consider as a "properly" run USAT? If Texas was "poorly" run, then which USAT would be the one that is considered well run? And what features are there which makes that USAT rise above everything else?
> 
> -Steve


Steve,

I mentioned before that I liked the Nationals in Ohio. Standards are different for everyone and that is understandable but it is quite obvious when no effort is made. Now I would not go as far as saying that other events are run perfectly because logistics play a very important role. At the nationals at least an effort was made and the judges did not allow anyone other than the athletes to occupy the archer's area. Then there was the case of proper and sufficient signage, and Ohio was properly equipped in that regard as well. if you were out of state there was enough signage going a mile back. The the canopy was strong, beautiful, very protective of the elements and the whole event was properly run if not perfectly (which is not a problem at all). All in all, it exhibited quality and class and was worthy of being called an Olympic trial.

It was pretty sad and helpless to watch the tent/s fall a fellow archers rig at the TS. I was standing right there and it missed my bow with just a scratch on the long rod. I hope the other guy was as lucky but I doubt it. That hurt. On inspection, we found that the tent in question and many other tents were only secured with a single or two stakes which were not driven into the ground, and to top it off, the adjacent tents were tethered to these tents with a zip tie, WITHOUT any stakes at all. Well everyone saw the results. But none has the balls to say it all. Plus since their equipment escaped unscathed, I guess they are o.k. with this. During elimination we just stood in the sun because our chairs were occupied by people who did not belong there and the officials could care less. My family members and friends paid $50 to sit in the "special area",,, well you can guess for yourself how special an area with 105 in the sun can be. It was 93 in the shade, NOT in the sun. This is America, don't take my money if you can't provide the goods. Simple enough. If they can call that an Olympic trial, well then I know what standards they are aspiring to. Anyways enough of this. I desist from any further comment on this, I took the time to answer you because your question was response worthy and devoid of malice.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Thank you for your reply. 

In the interest of public disclosure, I am one of the people that is responsible for setting up and running the Arizona Cup. So I have a more than morbid interest in what goes on not only on the USAT that I'm involved with, but also the other USAT's as well. 

My kids (genetic and JOAD kids) along with adults in my JOAD club also attend the USAT's and Nationals (either JOAD Nationals or Outdoor Nationals). I attended Texas this year as a coach, so I watched what was going on with more than a normal interest - in the past, I was one of the staff members of USA Archery running the event. 

I can say that other than the power issue (and the reliance on a single generator, which bit the tournament in the rear end with zero backup for power), the setup has been no different than prior instances of the Texas Shootout with regards to the tent setup and chairs. I can say that from prior experience, tents are owned by Texas A&M. Chairs are rented and are based upon the number of prepaid coach and paid seating. So if more people than planned buy an on site coach pass or on site paid seating on the days of the tournament, the venue can run out of paid seating.

If I had any personal complaint - it would have been the lack of monitoring by EMS on the heat index. The heat index did approach things to where the tournament should have been delayed for a short period. But that's me. 

Anyhow, I appreciate the feedback. 

-Steve


----------



## aavaaz (Jan 11, 2018)

Beastmaster said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> In the interest of public disclosure, I am one of the people that is responsible for setting up and running the Arizona Cup. So I have a more than morbid interest in what goes on not only on the USAT that I'm involved with, but also the other USAT's as well.
> 
> ...


Oh, Arizona was nice. No complaints. That’s because organizers there are always a step ahead as they realize what is required to host a tournament of that magnitude in a hot and arid environment. Also the officials took there job seriously and I saw one elderly official checking everyone’s hand band and those that were occupying athlete seats or were sitting in paid area without a hand band, were asked to leave. Signs leading to the event were clear and plenty. Plenty of vendors too which is always helpful. Shade was ample with good strong canopy. All in all it was quite evident that a big effort was made and the organizers were proud of hosting the tournament. What more can one ask for? To tell you the truth Gainesville and Chula Vista were good too. Ohio was the best.


----------



## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

I thought it was fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This is what kills me - that the accusation keeps being made that "it is quite obvious when no effort is made" and the A&M event organizers don't "realize what is required to host a tournament of that magnitude in a hot and (should have been humid) environment" even when A&M has now hosted three consecutive Olympic trials events going back to 2011. Those are simply ignorant and insulting statements that don't deserve a response.


----------



## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

you can't please everyone.


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

My only comments in this thread will be that I do not agree with the title, and that I have only heard that assessment from one person.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Heat and wind couldnt have been too bad. Brady shot a 677. Casey shot a 653. 

Its not too windy until they shoot a 600.

shooting in Vegas in the summer, temps are 106 to 115 and super windy. If we waited for a day that was mild and not windy, we could only shoot about 4 days per year.

I did hear it was not held on campus this time. Usually the USAT is on campus on the soccer fields. But if the park was large enough to accomodate the event with bathrooms and such, the new location should have been fine. 

Chris


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Folks up North should host outdoor USAT tournaments when the temps are in the 40's so they can hear us Southerners whine. LOL It would only be fair.

I recall one day at Chula during stage 2 of the 2012 trials when we had three seasons in about 4 hours. LOL Now that was fun. But the sideways downpour at the trials that weren't the trials will forever go down in my mind as the most ridiculous shooting conditions anyone has ever been told to shoot in at an Olympic trials. Worse even than day one of elims in Athens when world class archers were missing the bale because of the wind and a 6 was considered a small victory.

All character builders.


----------



## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

I invited a lot of Texas friends to come up north to visit. 

No takers yet... :set1_rolf2:


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

bruce_m said:


> I invited a lot of Texas friends to come up north to visit.
> 
> No takers yet... :set1_rolf2:


Yea, there's a lot of weenies down here when it dips below 50. LOL But as you know, it's mostly a state of mind, just like shooting in the heat. If a person wants to be miserable, they will. There are ways to deal with high heat and humidity just like there are ways to deal with cold and rain and wind. Most folks just don't prepare well, then before they know it they are exhausted and dehydrated and they still have 60+ arrows to shoot. You simply cannot behave in the heat the way you do in mild conditions, and expect to have the same results. 

Having said that, the worst heat I can ever remember dealing with on an archery field was actually in Ohio at nationals one year. 14 hour days coaching on that field were miserable. It was 10 degrees hotter there than it was back home in Texas that week. LOL


----------



## sannu (Oct 8, 2019)

I follow this forum but don't post for obvious reasons. This is my first post because I am one of the guys on whose bows the tents fell. My sight pin got bent and the fiber optic broke and my riser got a bit beat up. I saw other tents collapsing and falling on paid area spectators when the rain storm came during official practice. But now worries though. I'm only pissed because my equipment got dinged because some guy did not bother to put in stakes but zip tied tents to each other. That is negligence when you know its going to thunderstorm. One official came with stakes afterwards pounded them in the ground later. There was plenty of drinking water though and official was very nice and apologetic. Those tents are the type which you can buy at home depot, cheap and very flimsy. They don't provide enough shade. As someone else pointed out the venue was not pretty but that is a matter of availability I suppose. BTW does anyone here know how to touch up dings on 'matte' carbon fiber riser? glossy ones are easy with clear nailpolish. Matte, idk. Please help.


----------



## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Just to provide perspective, it wasn't that long ago that tents provided by the host were an unexpected luxury.


----------



## sannu (Oct 8, 2019)

Ofcourse. And to tell you the truth if they only had been made an effort to staked them down and not zip tied to each other, my equipment would have not been damaged....I have an expensive rig (hard earned cash) I'm not a good shooter so they dont give it to me for free...:embara:. BTW anyone on how to fix scratches on matte carbon fiber?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sannu, yours is a legitimate gripe IMO and you're right - those tents should have been staked. That was a mistake on the part of the hosts, particularly when that venue has a reputation for high winds (but then any venue can and often does get gusts high enough to lift a 10x10 canopy). I'm sure the hosts would be the first to admit those canopies should have been staked down.

RMBX10 your point is well made. 

Had I been shooting and noticed those tent canopies weren't staked down, I probably would have found Lorinda or Bill or Frank and pointed that out to them. Then if at that point nothing was done, I think you'd really have a legitimate beef. Personally, I would have moved my equipment upwind of the canopies, but it's unreasonable to expect or ask everyone to think that far ahead and plan for such an event.

We all need to help these volunteers out. Anyone who has run a tournament knows there are literally hundreds of small details to take care off. Archers helping out the hosts is pretty routine and necessary in this small sport.


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

If there were canopies that were not staked down, I agree, that is a big mistake. Ours were staked down with Texas Tacks but not driven all the way into the ground. Some of the folks on the Masters line drove them deeper after one of the canopies blew over. Tie wraps are certainly not adequate. We should make it a point to give them this feedback. If it comes from several directions I am sure that we will see better attention to details next time.

Having run organizations and tournaments at several levels, I can see how it might be a bit more difficult to put on something like this every other year with much of the help coming from a college team. You don't get a lot of long term volunteers that way, which makes it much more important for the experienced folks to communicate and lead. On the one hand you want to give students the opportunity to organize and lead but you also have to give them guidance.

Like competing, you learn from opportunities to improve when organizing as well.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> Like competing, you learn from opportunities to improve when organizing as well.


You also learn to organize while you are competing.  (that's a hint to all the experienced shooters)


----------



## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

No complaints on the wind, heat or rain. Staff seemed nice. The tent situation did suck. I bought two 50 dollar seats and had to find my own chairs. One of the tents blew over and hit my daughters bow. Also thought it was rude to see people lowering the back of the tents down for shade. I did not lower the tent I was under. I felt bad for people that didnt purchase seats and had to look at the back of a tent the whole shoot. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I wish things could go back to the days when people 1) respected the archer's area and 2) didn't purchase seating. But I suppose we'll never get back to those days.


----------



## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I wish things could go back to the days when people 1) respected the archer's area and 2) didn't purchase seating. But I suppose we'll never get back to those days.


The whole idea of paid seating at an archery event in the U.S. outside of the Olympic Games or World Championship is ridiculous. Bring your own chair, stay out of the archers' way (that means more than just your own kid) and be done with it. Perhaps I'm remembering the "good old days" of my youth a bit too fondly, but I don't ever recall there being any consternation about chairs and tents. If you're flying to a tournament and don't want to pack a chair, stop at Walmart buy one for ten bucks and then donate it to the host club at the end. Hell, for the cost of one tungsten point, that you don't need, you can buy a chair for yourself and one for the person who forgot his and build some good karma.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I wish things could go back to the days when people 1) respected the archer's area and 2) didn't purchase seating. But I suppose we'll never get back to those days.


I didnt see a single person cross the line and into the archers area that wasnt susposed to be there. I've been 7 or 8 of these usat events over the last several years and the youth world championships this year in spain and haven't seen what you are talking about. Maybe its a recurve thing?

As far as paid seating goes meh I'd rather pay the 50 bucks then fight the hometown crowd for tent spots. If my 100 bucks gets used to better the next event I'm good with that.

I'm glad when I go to a football game I dont have to sit in a field looking at the back of a tent. Maybe some day archery will invest in some bleachers or host the events in a stadium. 



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

JOAD Nationals is where I've seen the worst problems with people being in the archer's area that didn't belong.

I guess people like you are the reason we have seats being sold. LOL If they were depending on people like me to buy seats, they would be wasting their time.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> JOAD Nationals is where I've seen the worst problems with people being in the archer's area that didn't belong.
> 
> I guess people like you are the reason we have seats being sold. LOL If they were depending on people like me to buy seats, they would be wasting their time.


Before the seats I'd fly in buy a tent, chairs, cooler ect then get put out behind everyone else and couldnt even see my girls compete. I'd give all that stuff away away to folks when I left. So I feel for the spectators in the cheap seats and the reason I'd rather sit in the sun then lower the back of the tent for shade. The way I see it im money ahead or breaking even with the bonus of being able to some what see. 






Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I suppose this all is a symptom of "success" - with these events getting larger and larger. 

I still view archery as a amateur, recreational sport and I'll probably always see it that way. Whenever these events get so big and so expensive, it makes me wonder where they're hiding the professional sporting event in the middle of it all. LOL


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

The trend has been to host nationals at soccer facilities. There is almost no room to put up tents or your own chairs behind the archers area. So that forces people to 'buy seat passes' so they can at least sit down and have some shade. Hmmm, do you think the revenue gain is just a happy unforeseen consequence? 

Then you run into the "what, are we back in junior high?" strategic contest of wills with someone showing up 1.5 hours early and staking out their claim on an entire table or sometimes TWO tables and chairs because they're "saving them for others "parking the car" (of course, those 'others' won't leave their hotel for another hour). It's like the worst thing about Southwest Airlines used to be "GET THERE EARLY AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE SO YOU CAN SPRINT DOWN THE TUNNEL AND SNAG A "NOT MIDDLE" SEAT UP FRONT!!!!!!!". Ugh. 

Competitions in stadiums with stadium seating are awesome! The main arena at Vegas is a GREAT way to watch. One year I held the Outdoor OK State Championship in the old Tulsa Oilers/Drillers baseball stadium. It was a great way to watch.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, I always thought baseball fields were custom made for archery.


----------

