# 2017 IBO Rule change suggestions



## gvincent (Dec 14, 2002)

In a few weeks, the IBO will start having their off season meetings for next year. This thread is to give them ideas for rules to address or tweak that come straight from the members. If this doesn't go off topic, they will see it! This is NOT for recommendations for classes. That can be another thread (and probably should be)!


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## gvincent (Dec 14, 2002)

Here's the first one. If there is a 2 minute rule, why do we have to have a 3 let down rule? This should just go away as it at best only shortens somebodies 2 minutes.


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## DCPA (Jan 10, 2012)

Maybe set a speed restriction!!!

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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

Start a known yardage class


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## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

Pre-Registration...set shoot times...20 on Fri, 20 on Sat...top 5 scores shoot on Sun....Makes for a deserving TC Nat'l Champion....Scores from TC carry over to World Championship for a true overall World Champion.


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## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

How about the membership at large elects all board members and the president !!!!!!!!!!!


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

ahcnc said:


> Pre-Registration...set shoot times...20 on Fri, 20 on Sat...top 5 scores shoot on Sun....Makes for a deserving TC Nat'l Champion....Scores from TC carry over to World Championship for a true overall World Champion.


I agree on about all. Id prefer to shoot sat and sun.

But i would also see a known distance class . Dont care if its 40-45-50 max , ill shoot it.


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## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

Ask vendors what they need or what.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

woodsman78 said:


> How about the membership at large elects all board members and the president !!!!!!!!!!!


Cant have the inmates running the asylum!!!!!!!!


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## brownstonebear (Apr 10, 2006)

There are many things that should be and most likely will be changed and re-written in the rule book and Enforced..... Busted up groups is a must, Would like to see a director and or rep at every check in tent and monitoring the courses at every Ibo sanctioned event. I realize changes take time and as long as everyone is on the same page and not down grading the Ibo, I believe it could get better. Just my opinion, not looking to be judged.
Thank you.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Pier groups and tee times. 

This needs to be done on the national shoots as well as the state shoots.

If this is done you will see who the real shooters are.

If the ASA can do this so can the IBO.


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## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

reylamb said:


> Cant have the inmates running the asylum!!!!!!!!


Maybe if the membership was picking we would have a chance to deal with less arrogance!!


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

every national shoot and most state shoots i've been to in the last 10? years have gone out of there way to bust groups.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

nochance said:


> every national shoot and most state shoots i've been to in the last 10? years have gone out of there way to bust groups.


You are not attending the same shoots that we do evidently.
First leg of triple crown this year same as always. First shoot with three guys that were all buddy's and drove to the shoot together. 2nd day different people but again all were buddy's that drove to the shoot together. The IBO state shoots are even worse with this happening in are area. Pier groups with tee times will stop this. Until the IBO does this I believe their numbers will continue to drop. People are tired of taking time of work, motel room bills, ect. and going to shoots just to let the "good ol boys win". After this shoot have not attended any more IBO shoots this year and we have been really liking all the ASA shoots we have shot. Heading to the ASA classic now.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

First I wouldn't want to have to shoot 2 days. Sometimes I like to make it a 1 day trip. If its 2 days mandatory it will hurt attendance doing that. Second the indoor world this year they didn't even try to bust groups. They didn't know what was going on there last year at Cleveland.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Specifically write in the rules that no device can be used as an inclinometer, this is to include any device not attached to the bow, for example cell phone apps. No device can be used to estimate angle to the target.


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## brownstonebear (Apr 10, 2006)

On a personal note. One person that can and will make the proper changes in the Ibo is Jon Brown. He would be the guy I would want for the president of the organization. He has been listening to the shooters and taking notes to implement rules and regulations, define and re-write the book, changes in classes ect. By chance that Brian steps down. I would definitely recommend Jon. He is about the shooters and increasing vendor participation. Just my opinion though.


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## foland20 (Apr 8, 2012)

brownstonebear said:


> On a personal note. One person that can and will make the proper changes in the Ibo is Jon Brown. He would be the guy I would want for the president of the organization. He has been listening to the shooters and taking notes to implement rules and regulations, define and re-write the book, changes in classes ect. By chance that Brian steps down. I would definitely recommend Jon. He is about the shooters and increasing vendor participation. Just my opinion though.


Couldn't think of a better guy myself. It's amazing what he has done just in the northeast.


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## brownstonebear (Apr 10, 2006)

foland20 said:


> Couldn't think of a better guy myself. It's amazing what he has done just in the northeast.


Totally agree. Jon Brown has done a great job in the northeast. I believe he would truly make a big difference as the Ibo President. He listens on a personal level, and agree's that changes need to be made now. He is a huge advocate for shooters and vendors.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

rockyw said:


> If its 2 days mandatory it will hurt attendance doing that....


IBO NTC is not just a club shoot where everyone just shoots at their leisure (or rather they shouldn't be). ASA attendance for a 2day shoot is booming. Whatever attendance might be lost by going to 2-day format with regulated shooting times is more than offset by attracting more serious competitors that want legitimate competition.


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## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

nestly said:


> IBO NTC is not just a club shoot where everyone just shoots at their leisure (or rather they shouldn't be). ASA attendance for a 2day shoot is booming. Whatever attendance might be lost by going to 2-day format with regulated shooting times is more than offset by attracting more serious competitors that want legitimate competition.


Most my friends shoot IBO and like to play the weather..shoot with someone they know/travel with...some like to shoot them all in 1 day....This is fine, but not what I (IMO) feel is an even playing field, or a true Nat'L Championship. I've had good times/made great freinds in the last 20 years shooting IBO TC, but it no longer holds value to me.
Must be on the range with your competitors...(and no pay extra $$ to shoot for $$...1 entry fee..ALL in)


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

From years of the same issues, here is a list:
-Shoot times for all Triple Crowns and Worlds- need to separate itself from a big club shoot atmosphere and level the playing field.
-Need to have 'informed range officials' on the ranges and enforcing the rules in place.
-Paying for a money pot is ridiculous.. If you register- you contribute to the payout- period.
-known distance is a huge part of 3D whether you like it or not.. Adapt or die off- keep it simple-K45, Senior K, Women's K. All 45 max. Likely to bring 200+ shooters.
-Board of Directors needs a facelift- the membership is fed up, we pay the bills and get less in return at every shoot.
-Vendors have been the lifeblood of sponsorship money's- these people deserve more for their contributions. Figure a way to cycle shooters thru the vendor areas and the shoot times will keep shooters from being on the courses for 8-10 hours and leaving.
-IBO needs to step up and take more responsibility to insure the venue and range set ups are up to standards. Too much is being put on to the volunteers so the IBO can push the blame elsewhere. (ex)- safety on the ranges, shuttle services, range layouts, shooting times posted in a timely manner, event schedules, range/registration officials and the list could go on for days. 
-And most of all they need to have a system that allows them to be Pro-active and make changes required without waiting until a fall or spring meeting when it no longer matters. If it's broke- fix it now.. It's years of neglecting to have any concern other than collecting our entry fees that has the IBO in the position they are in. I for one refuse to support them any longer. Continuing to hand them your entry fees and hoping things get better sure hasn't worked over the last few years, what makes you think it will be better at the next shoot? Why should they make any changes if you are still paying their bills...


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## rodneyroberts32 (Nov 17, 2008)

Do known class like ASA. Largest class in Archery now and still growing


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## Bow Dad (Feb 4, 2015)

Separate Female and Male Cub Classes


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

wv hoyt man said:


> You are not attending the same shoots that we do evidently.
> First leg of triple crown this year same as always. First shoot with three guys that were all buddy's and drove to the shoot together. 2nd day different people but again all were buddy's that drove to the shoot together. The IBO state shoots are even worse with this happening in are area. Pier groups with tee times will stop this. Until the IBO does this I believe their numbers will continue to drop. People are tired of taking time of work, motel room bills, ect. and going to shoots just to let the "good ol boys win". After this shoot have not attended any more IBO shoots this year and we have been really liking all the ASA shoots we have shot. Heading to the ASA classic now.


Erie twice, worlds once, West Virginia. and many NY state triple crown events. I will admit Cleveland(indoors) makes no attempt to split groups.


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## turkeygirl (Aug 13, 2006)

I think paying $30 for each shoot plus $30 at the state shoot is a little bit much IMO then I still had to pay for a series T-shirt. Each shoot I went to I shot with a different group of people. But at a couple shoots I would see the same group time after time shooting together. There are pros and cons but maybe split up groups. I would not be surprised in the "tight-nit" groups if questionable activity occurs (someone is maybe good at yardage judging and gives the others in their group a heads up,etc). I enjoyed shooting with different shooters each time. I'd also like to recommend more people walking the course and monitoring the shooters, ensuring protocol is being followed. There was more than a few times that a group ahead of me (but no one ahead of them) would wait until my group got up to them to start shooting their stake.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Tee times and known classes is all that's needed.... Monitor when signing up if they are from the same state...should be fairly simple to do, and should eliminate most of the buddy system.


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

Tee times, Yes, I know have to agree would be a good implementation.
But, can the IBO and the NTC host manage this...?

"Known", I just don't get it... Three quarters of the thrill is guessing and fine tuning my yardage judging skills. 
The IBO is a bow hunting organization, not a shooters association.
I suggest the IBO forever disallow any forms of range finding devices...


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## foland20 (Apr 8, 2012)

I think they should pay out hc too. That class has the most shooters and they are still spending a lot of money to travel to these shoots.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

robinofthehood said:


> "Known", I just don't get it... Three quarters of the thrill is guessing and fine tuning my yardage judging skills.
> The *IBO is a bow hunting organization*, not a shooters association.
> I suggest the IBO forever *disallow any forms of range finding devices*...


So you don't own a rangefinder, or used one while hunting? How about binoculars? Do you shoot at the imaginary heart during an IBO tournament, or do you shoot at the scoring rings, even if it would be a "bad" shot in a hunting situation? If you're shooting at scoring rings and not the "heart", then you're target shooting my friend, not practicing for hunting. Your antiquated view of rangefinders could also have been made to disallow compounds bows, sights, release aids, aluminum arrows, carbon arrows, and binoculars. Rangefinders are just as much a part of "hunting" these days as any/all of those other items that we now take for granted when we go afield.

For the record, I prefer to shoot "unknown" 3D, but it's just plain stupid to tell all those who don't want to judge yardage that they aren't welcome, and IBO's decline is largely attributable to their own stupidity.


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## f4yg (Aug 30, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> Tee times, Yes, I know have to agree would be a good implementation.
> But, can the IBO and the NTC host manage this...?
> 
> "Known", I just don't get it... Three quarters of the thrill is guessing and fine tuning my yardage judging skills.
> ...



I don't shoot known but I do take a rangefinder while hunting. If the IBO is a Hunting organization there shouldn't be long stabilizers or lenses. 


The fact is: known yardage draws a lot of shooters who normally don't attend 3D shoots. All the local clubs in my area are now doing a known yardage class (just one) and people are
signing up for it. It's growing attendance locally. We want to grow the sport not push people away.


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

I do own a range finder. I only use it on my clubs 5 star NFAA field course, which is where all my practice is done. I use it to fine tune my pins to X-ring spot on accuracy. I don't take it to local Sunday 3d"s and nor do I take it with me to an IBO event. It's the thrill of how proficient I've become at judging yardage with the eyes God gave me. That's what keeps me coming back.
Not to brag, but on any given Sunday I can hit the ten ring 9 out 10 shots. I consider myself to be a rather deadly force in the fall woods.

So, me and Mr. Zapper are in the woods. A creature worth killing comes into range. I have it pegged to the yard out to 40. My release is on the string. Mr. Zapper has no clue how far away it might be. He has to raise his electronic device for help. As he is pushing the button, I am at full draw settling on the 10 ring. Not that it is race to the 10 ring, but I believe the true bow hunter won here...

I have never shot a ASA event. So let me ask a ASA question.
Let's say at an ASA event, 30 - 40 % of the archers are shooting known and have their zappers in tow. The other 60 -70 % shooting unknown are not carrying. How does the ASA ensure no zappers are being carried onto or being used on a unknown course...?

IMO, those supporting this "known" concept, choose to not commit to the time and practice required and would most likely prefer to shoot from the porch.
They probably believe the use of drones with a Go Pro is OK for hunting also...

The line in the sand has to drawn, just as the Pope and Young Club has done as the coming years of this electronic age will bring God knows what.

The reason God gave us two eyes is simple.
I vote that rule "IV.C.1" in the current IBO rule book remain strong and intact for years to come.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

robinofthehood said:


> I have never shot a ASA event. So let me ask a ASA question.
> Let's say at an ASA event, 30 - 40 % of the archers are shooting known and have their zappers in tow. The other 60 -70 % shooting unknown are not carrying. How does the ASA ensure no zappers are being carried onto or being used on a unknown course...?


Known and unknown are different courses. EVERYONE that's competing against each other is on the course at the same time, AND WITHIN EYESIGHT of each other, as well as in sight of the spectators and range officials. If a rangefinder was pulled out on an "unknown" course, EVERYONE on the range would know about it within minutes.



robinofthehood said:


> IMO, those supporting this "known" concept, choose to not commit to the time and practice required and would most likely prefer to shoot from the porch.



I don't know how to describe those statements as anything other than ignorant. ALL of the very best archers in the world shoot known distance 3D (Redding, CA) and OPA, in addition to those who are regular participants on the ASA tour. It's ridiculous to suggest that "Known" shooters. especially those that finish near the top dedicate any less time and practice to archery compared to their "unknown" counterparts 



robinofthehood said:


> They probably believe the use of drones with a Go Pro is OK for hunting also...


Flashlights are electronic devices too, so it must be true that if you use a flashlight, then you must also support the use of drones for hunting.... ridiculous right?.... but no more ridiculous than the connection you made between rangefinders and drones.



robinofthehood said:


> The line in the sand has to drawn....
> 
> The reason God gave us two eyes is simple.



Well, he also gave us hands, and legs so why should we not just run down and kill our prey with our bare hands. God gave us a brain so we could figure out how to adapt and become more efficient. As stated earlier, unless you're using traditional equipment, you're a hypocrite, because you've crossed a line that others have drawn and don't think should have been crossed.



robinofthehood said:


> I vote that rule "IV.C.1" in the current IBO rule book remain strong and intact for years to come.


Got news for you... the bridge is out on that road. Whatever you hope to accomplish by encouraging IBO to drive off the end of the road and plunge into the ravine won't be regarded a noble, it will be remembered as stupid. The verdict is in on Known distance issue, sticking your head in the sand won't change reality.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

You sir have the same poor attitude that is killing the ibo and if you all continue to refuse to move with what is better for growing the sport you and the other 50 ibo shooters that think like you will be able to stand in each other's back yards and compete for the back yard world championship and triple crown while all the rest of us shoot the real tournaments that have taken over


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> but it's just plain stupid to tell all those who don't want to judge yardage that they aren't welcome,


I second that, I also would not shoot it but if other would I'm all for it. This sport is for everybody!


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## Marine96 (Jul 16, 2010)

robinofthehood said:


> I do own a range finder. I only use it on my clubs 5 star NFAA field course, which is where all my practice is done. I use it to fine tune my pins to X-ring spot on accuracy. I don't take it to local Sunday 3d"s and nor do I take it with me to an IBO event. It's the thrill of how proficient I've become at judging yardage with the eyes God gave me. That's what keeps me coming back.
> Not to brag, but on any given Sunday I can hit the ten ring 9 out 10 shots. I consider myself to be a rather deadly force in the fall woods.
> 
> So, me and Mr. Zapper are in the woods. A creature worth killing comes into range. I have it pegged to the yard out to 40. My release is on the string. Mr. Zapper has no clue how far away it might be. He has to raise his electronic device for help. As he is pushing the button, I am at full draw settling on the 10 ring. Not that it is race to the 10 ring, but I believe the true bow hunter won here...
> ...


The IBO is for bow hunters only? I don't hunt, so does that excluded me from being able to compete in IBO shoots.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Well these questions was very well replied to, thanks NESTLY. I enjoy shooting the ASA also the known yardages are just as much fun to shoot as the unknown. Each are different and people make up their own mind on what the would like to shoot.
I would assume the IBO will be making the proper changes needed to bring their numbers back up.


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## kmowers (May 5, 2013)

This....most accurate summary. This.


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

" KNOWN" in the IBO....
Is not going to happen as long as Bryan is President.
Long may he reign.


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

nestly said:


> Known and unknown are different courses. EVERYONE that's competing against each other is on the course at the same time, AND WITHIN EYESIGHT of each other, as well as in sight of the spectators and range officials. If a rangefinder was pulled out on an "unknown" course, EVERYONE on the range would know about it within minutes.
> 
> Ah, the old assembly line format with a time clock and the boss watching your every move.
> Sounds like fun.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

robinofthehood said:


> Ah, the old assembly line format with a time clock and the boss watching your every move.
> Sounds like fun.


Obviously not for everyone, but hard to deny ASA format appeals to more folks than IBO when you look at attendance.



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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Biggest thing they need to change is everyone in the class is shooting for the same prize. Absolute BS that you can beat 300 plus in a class but only a handful are in the money portion. 

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## Dartonman (Sep 9, 2002)

Long may he reign ??ukey:

BY next year he'll have single handedly ruined the IBO with his arrogance. He is a very poor leader


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## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

the B.O.D. is who give the direction of the organization the president is to follow that direction. If not they have the power to fire him or her .let's see if the board is hearing the members in 2 weeks.


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## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm guessing when he retired from his job at a city parks department they threw a huge retirement party for him. After he was gone!!!!!!!


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Actually winning at least a plaque for 2nd and 3rd place shooter of the year would be nice...


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## arrowpuller (May 14, 2007)

I don't feel strongly about the known distance one way or the other.....all i know is that the IBO has do to something to grow the sport...if introducing known grows the sport...then why not

if the argument is that it is a bowhunting organization ....i compete in a class with a 30 inch stab a sure loc extended 9 inches with a 4 power lense and a #1 clarifier and a back tension release...tell me what is bowhunting about that..???? i sure as ell wouldn't be caught dead in the deer woods with that set-up


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## jchiarap (Sep 3, 2013)

I would like to see shoot times and shotgun start for Saturday and Sunday. I don't think Friday and Saturday with a shoot off on Sunday will work because of people's work schedules. I would also like to see a speed limit for several different reasons. One of those reasons is it gives everyone a fair opportunity at getting their bow to speed with a short draw length and two if you're someone who shoots ASA and IBO it's nice to be able to shoot the same bow for both venues and be competitive 


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## jchiarap (Sep 3, 2013)

I would also like to see payouts for ALL classes (excluding cub, and YMR). I think it's ridiculous if you shoot MBO, for example, and it's a choice whether you pay into the money or not. It should be mandatory. If you want to shoot in a higher class, raise the entry fees and make payouts higher. If you don't want to pay the extra money, stay down in a different class 


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## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

As far as known distance ,there are 4 shooters in my club that would be shooting the IBO if they had a known class they are all field shooters that are tired of shooting against the low turnout in field archery.


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## kmowers (May 5, 2013)

It's pretty amazing to see how many people are missing the point all together. The same group of world champions are winning every other shoot that they attend. They can flat out shoot regardless of class, known yardage, or equipment. 

I hear nothing but excuses. Pencil pushers, super maxed out distances, poor leadership, blah, blah, blah. 

Regardless of the tournament, There is only one person standing on the line. Find your personal reason for shooting and stick to that...stop looking up and down the line and coming up with excuses as to why you're a slug.


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## Uzurmnd247 (Jun 1, 2009)

When the Organization keeps sticking it's head in the sand, all you see is the $ss. Change , it's about the shooters, not the Org. It won't survive without the shooters.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

kmowers said:


> It's pretty amazing to see how many people are missing the point all together. The same group of world champions are winning every other shoot that they attend. They can flat out shoot regardless of class, known yardage, or equipment.
> 
> I hear nothing but excuses. Pencil pushers, super maxed out distances, poor leadership, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> Regardless of the tournament, There is only one person standing on the line. Find your personal reason for shooting and stick to that...stop looking up and down the line and coming up with excuses as to why you're a slug.


The vast majority of people complaining about the issues the organization is having, are those working class guys who do this because they enjoy it. The amateur and semi pro classes are who should be catered to as WE are what makes up the events. This isn't about world champions or the same few who won every event. It's about the other 99%

People don't want to travel 4-7 hours to a shoot where they're burning vacation time and hard earned money on a poorly ran event when other organizations are getting it right.


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## 3D archr (May 17, 2014)

I do not have a problem if known yardage is implamented in the IBO organization. I for one use a range finder when I hunt like I no others do when they hunt. I would on the other hand not compete in that class just my preference but don't have a problem if others would not have a problem if it is in the format for 2017


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## 1tex3d (Jun 13, 2002)

gvincent said:


> In a few weeks, the IBO will start having their off season meetings for next year. This thread is to give them ideas for rules to address or tweak that come straight from the members. If this doesn't go off topic, they will see it! This is NOT for recommendations for classes. That can be another thread (and probably should be)!


I would love to see some alignment with the ASA Hunter classes and IBO hunter classes. The main points being

1. Magnification allowed
2. Glued in points being allowed

I understand that the ASA could also, eliminate magnification. I just don't think there is as much give on that side. The arrow thing is just kind of silly though, glued in points are a lot less damaging to the targets than ill-fitted screw-in points. I get that its a "hunter" class, but at this point I think we could look at 90% or more of the setups on the range and agree that people are there to shoot "target" archery, not hunt.

Thanks and I look forward to seeing what the IBO does for 2017


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## 48archer (Mar 19, 2009)

I think the IBO needs to lower the speed limit to 280 fps. Guys shooting hunter class with long draw lengths and todays bows aren't even guessing yardage, most are shooting with one pin. I think it will give the guys with shorter lengths more of a fair chance. I agree with the above also of allowing glued in points also, these guys are target archers, if they were true hunters they would be shooting broadheads. lol


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