# What would be your vote if you were on the rules committee for ASA?



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Voting on the semi pro shooter who been using rangefinder for over a year now and winning and finally got caught.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

DQ for a yr and pay back winnings would be my vote DB, how about yourself


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3Dblackncamo said:


> DQ for a yr and pay back winnings would be my vote DB, how about yourself


Got to agree this seems like the fair way for me.
DB


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## wsbark01 (Feb 26, 2009)

DB,
Based on what I have read, and i have read almost every post on this, I would vote for 1 year ban minimum! Now if he was to come clean and pays back any money won to the organizations that he took it from I would still vote for the 1 year and allow him to return. He will have to pay for his actions in the long run but sometimes it takes mistakes to become a MAN, and let me tell you I have made my fair share of them. Now I never cheated to win but I have made mistakes!


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

I don't see how they could FORCE a guy to payback past earnings, so I'd go with a lifetime ban if no public apology was made, 3 year ban with an apology, and when he returned, k50 or k45 would be the only options to enter.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Lifetime..... The level he went to to hide his wrong doing is why I say lifetime!!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Babyk said:


> Lifetime..... The level he went to to hide his wrong doing is why I say lifetime!!!!


Others have done atleast as bad as him and didnt get a lifetime bann. He shouldnt either.
DB


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

My question is how did he use a rangefinder and not be seen by his shooting group. It seems like someone had to know.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Daniel Boone said:


> Others have done atleast as bad as him and didnt get a lifetime bann. He shouldnt either.
> DB


have others put in as much time to attempt to fool others in such a premeditated format???


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

C.Callison said:


> My question is how did he use a rangefinder and not be seen by his shooting group. It seems like someone had to know.


The red flags were ever where. Im guessing him being a nice guy had everyone fooled. Come on beating the pros at the triple crown by a large margin should have drew some eye brows.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

frog gigger said:


> I don't see how they could FORCE a guy to payback past earnings, so I'd go with a lifetime ban if no public apology was made, 3 year ban with an apology, and when he returned, k50 or k45 would be the only options to enter.


Rules committee can do anything they want. He either abides by it or doesnt shoot.
DB


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

If I was him I would be at GA and ask Mike for the floor and make a public apology and hope it was enough for people to forgive the action....at least then he may have a shot to at least come to the shoots again.....what he did was not smart.....hopefully he just got caught up in the moment and wasnt thinking correctly......sometimes good people make bad choices but I feel when you make them bad choices you should be held accountable for your actions and whatever comes your way you take with big shoulders and move on.......


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

If I was him I would make a Public apology and ensure it was videoed so it could be provided to be posted on the interenet for people who was not there to view.....take myself out of the ASA/IBO for life and ask that people would at least ok if I attended shoots to support my son who is in archery.......

what this man did if proven true was wrong dead wrong......but his kid shouldnt have to wear his dads mistake forever.......


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

First, you can't have him repay the winnings, I see nothing in the ASA rulebook that would allow them a binding agreement to have him repay a dime. That maybe something for the courts to deal with on the basis of Fraud, but that would be really stretching it.

A public apology means nothing, anyone in professional sports stands up and makes one for the PR guys whenever something comes to light. Its absolutely meaningless.

The ASA banning for the remainder of the year, is possible, on the basis of his deception, not the cheating itself. (Mind you they have to find him guilty first.)

What worries me, is if they will take the opportunity to alter the rulebook as a reaction to this event.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Fact of the matter is he was caught on this day, at this event. 

I dont think they can do much more than deal with this one day. - of course Im sure we can all agree this just didnt happen at this one event, but we cannot prove it.

I would allow him to shoot the rest of the year - however he cannot take home any money (he has his son so he will probably be there anyways) make him face his peers he defrauded.

Secondly I would make him speak at every event for X amount of events to the young eagles and senior eagles about what he did. Why he did it, and how he feels. What it cost him, what he has had to do since etc..... 

We probably cannot put a lot of teeth into it - but could make it sting some.

I was shocked when I saw his picture. I ate dinner with him and his boy last year at the Metropolis banquet. We were one ticket short and he gave us one - we really enjoyed the night. Shame.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Garceau said:


> Fact of the matter is he was caught on this day, at this event.
> 
> I dont think they can do much more than deal with this one day. - of course Im sure we can all agree this just didnt happen at this one event, but we cannot prove it.
> 
> ...


From a business perspective...probation, the ASA will want the membership fees and entry fees from him and his family. He at a minimum should be forced to shoot a different venue and receive no winnings for a year. More than likely, this guy wont be seen again. The crap he will hear from others will not be worth the expense. Look to see him selling his binos and his gear in the classifieds.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## wheresthebear (Sep 15, 2009)

Babyk said:


> If I was him I would make a Public apology and ensure it was videoed so it could be provided to be posted on the interenet for people who was not there to view.....take myself out of the ASA/IBO for life and ask that people would at least ok if I attended shoots to support my son who is in archery.......
> 
> what this man did if proven true was wrong dead wrong......but his kid shouldnt have to wear his dads mistake forever.......


Thank you for your comment about his son.


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## brad-g (Feb 21, 2011)

Let him shoot the rest of the year, especially since you know most likely hes gona say he didn't use the range finder. They should make some kinda deal with him say let his scores prove what he did or didn't do. If he can keep his scores as high for the remainder of the year let him slide if not ban him for x amount of time with some payback from past shoots. You'll see rightaway if hes a fake or not.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Member posted this here, anyone else confirm what he saying about it?

I've talked to two friends of friends of Michael Vincent. He denies using the perfectly disguised binoculars. I hope he can find another garage sale pair that works for him. I'm done with this. His career will always be tarnished 


I find this exactly what I thought his response would be. Cheaters always have a way of justifing there actions. For me the rules committee should consider no remorse of guilt when setting punishment. 
DB


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## birddawg (Jul 23, 2009)

without investigation you cant prove he used those binos at other events and it most likely not worth the trouble knowing. Its a shame but he was caught in Texas so dq him and because he was trying to cover it up ban him for a year. I think he would have had more credability had he not had stickers on the binos and stated he was not using the rangefinder and forgot to take the batteries out. At this point it would have been hard to prove he was indeed using them and a dq from the event for having them on the range might have been the worst that happens to him. The obviouse deception with the stickers tells me this was no accident Still even with others seeing those binos at other events nobodt inspected them so to punish him for those events would be based on speculation only. Ban him for a year and put this behined everyone. The archers do a pretty good job making sure people follow the rules this will just make people more leary of this kind of thing. One lesson to be learned from this do not take rangefinder on the range period batteries or not or you will be dq'ed!


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

Hard to say for sure because I don't know all the facts. Taking all the info I have read as true, I would be more concerned with how to "make things right" for the shooters that finished behind him in the prior events, if that can even be done. 

If there is a means to compel repayment of past winnings, that would be desireable, however I don't believe the rules specifically provide for that, so any repayment would have to be a directive from the Committee and likely as a condition for reinstatement - i.e., "he is banned from competing in ASA indefinitely. Upon repayment of all winnings for the year 2012, he will be eligible for reinstatement at the next Pro/Am, subject to the vote of the Comp Committee, perhaps with a max of 3 years if he repays as directed"(if the Comp Committee won't let him back on their vote.) He could of course make it better on himself if admits he used the prohibited device and says, "yes, I used it all this year and at X, Y & Z shoots last year" and agrees to reimburse all winnings, then perhaps the committee might be more lenient and allow him to return to competition.

If he does 'fess up, "fixing it" for the affected shooters could be a nightmare. Surely some guys tried to "chase him" in recent events and went for 14s they normally would not have, but there is no way to cure that. The best the ASA could do would be to DQ his scores going back and re-award based upon the adjusted standings. If he repays the winnings, the ASA could offset most of the loss, and the shooters would be as close to correct as possible on the Shooter of the Year standings, etc.

What do you think is more probable - that he really was using the binos only as binos and not as a rangefinder, or that he doesn't have the money to repay the winnings, even if he wanted to ?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

He standing on he is innocent


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I hope that the response above from him is actually written by him because it totally tells us everything we need to know about him and his guilt and the fact that he needs to never show up again. I love liars and cheaters because they usually cut their own throat when they open their mouth so we don't need to investigate and waste our time and this response does exactly that.


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## Dingo26 (Mar 10, 2009)

Fisrt off I don't know Michael, wouldn't know him if he walked up and said hello...Now to my point, Mike and his ASA staff need to get this settled in a hurry, if they find out he did in fact use and take the effort to camo the bino's let the rules in place stand, that is what they are for.. If they find he did not do this, I'm not sure if the damage will ever be erased from his name, but as said in an earlier post HIS SON should not be labled, he should be held for HIS actions not his fathers... I hope this is not true but if it is he will have a long long road back... This is a fun family sport until you put $$$$$$ in the mix, then it opens up the door for lots of underhanded things to get and advantage.. I can't shoot so I don't care if you tell me how far it is I have a 50/50 chance of hitting it....some days it more like 25/75.. Please ASA get this settled ASAP!!!!!!


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

I voted for the DQ for the remainder of the year. The legal can of worms that would be opened if the ASA tries to force his to re-pay past earnings is simply not worth the headache....


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I was thinking 5 yr ban But not an option, so I chose 1 yr ban and restitution . Ban lifted at Augusta 2013


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Also if they don't ban him more than a year, it may open another can of legal worms


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Plenty of eye witnesses, including myself! Saw him using them at other asa shoots ! 





birddawg said:


> without investigation you cant prove he used those binos at other events and it most likely not worth the trouble knowing. Its a shame but he was caught in Texas so dq him and because he was trying to cover it up ban him for a year. I think he would have had more credability had he not had stickers on the binos and stated he was not using the rangefinder and forgot to take the batteries out. At this point it would have been hard to prove he was indeed using them and a dq from the event for having them on the range might have been the worst that happens to him. The obviouse deception with the stickers tells me this was no accident Still even with others seeing those binos at other events nobodt inspected them so to punish him for those events would be based on speculation only. Ban him for a year and put this behined everyone. The archers do a pretty good job making sure people follow the rules this will just make people more leary of this kind of thing. One lesson to be learned from this do not take rangefinder on the range period batteries or not or you will be dq'ed!


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

C.Callison said:


> My question is how did he use a rangefinder and not be seen by his shooting group. It seems like someone had to know.


It was a pair of Zeiss Binoculars with a built in Rangefinder... The Logos and "Button" were covered with Camo Tape, and Alpen decals... They look like ordinary Binos, and would go easily unnoticed by Those shooting with Him... Now In hindsight, several people who shot with Him remember Him keeping them in His chair, or covered with a Towel at all times... I know it would have been the furthest thing from My mind at an ASA event...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

When I first heard about this I was immediately mad as heck. I feel bad for those who lost to him for because he cheated.
I have re read all the ASA rules and feel there isn't much they can do to him. Because of the lack of proof.
He's already been found guilty in the court of public opinion. If he is allowed to continue competing and has the guts to show up, I believe he will get his just rewards.
I would vote for a DQ and let him continue competing. Unless he decides to come clean and admit wrong doing.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I talked with a guy that shot with him in florida in open A, he used the same technique


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Bottomline for me. He showing no remorse and isnt admitting he cheated in any way.

At this point he deserves a lifetime bann. He would cheat again if he got the chance.

Just makes me mad he thinks everyone stupid and making a mockery out of the sport.
DB


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

thats his answer im not the richest man but really who buys their 3d binocs at a garage sale? anybody


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## OHIOARCHER36 (Oct 12, 2010)

Lifetime


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

There might be a legal question about returning all winnings for this year. Can anyone prove he used illegal tactics for each shoot he received a financial return? Personally, I believe a one year ban and probation for a couple of years would be appropriate in this case. Everyone makes a mistake, even a serious one, but should be forgiven and given a second opportunity. Frankly, the damage to his ego and self-image is the greater punishment here. For one, I would welcome him back and give what appears to be a very good shooter another chance. Not doing so might also ruin the future/opportunity for his child/children who may like to shoot.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

It really doesn't matter what anyone would like to see happen or thinks should happen,
it all comes down to what the Competition Committee ultimately decides. 
I personally will respect that decision, no matter what it is.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rsw said:


> There might be a legal question about returning all winnings for this year. Can anyone prove he used illegal tactics for each shoot he received a financial return? Personally, I believe a one year ban and probation for a couple of years would be appropriate in this case. Everyone makes a mistake, even a serious one, but should be forgiven and given a second opportunity. Frankly, the damage to his ego and self-image is the greater punishment here. For one, I would welcome him back and give what appears to be a very good shooter another chance. Not doing so might also ruin the future/opportunity for his child/children who may like to shoot.


Mistake. he says he didnt make no mistake and doesnt admit any quilt. 
DB


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

most serious 3D shooters have seen people cheat on a local level wheter its speeding, calling arrows and pencil pushing, I think most were shocked that this was going on at ASA and did not expect to see this, he has done wrong but dont want to admit it, I will not allow a cheater or thief to rob me of something I enjoy doing so much, I will continue to shoot as many ASA Pro-Ams that I can


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I asked or hinted many times of why crap like this is not in the ASA Forums. Evidently everyone is just gutless. I'm not. When I have a ***** I contact the ASA in one form or another, LD, Mike, or in the ASA Forum.
The ASA Forums do have this issue going and you'll read they are investigating. All said and done the issue will be handled as per ASA rules and the investigating committee. And if you were to read the Committee can go beyond what the general rules say. SO this BS poll is meaningless except for those wanting to stir the pot or go after blood in the wrong way..


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> I asked or hinted many times of why crap like this is not in the ASA Forums. Evidently everyone is just gutless. I'm not. When I have a ***** I contact the ASA in one form or another, LD, Mike, or in the ASA Forum.
> The ASA Forums do have this issue going and you'll read they are investigating. All said and done the issue will be handled as per ASA rules and the investigating committee. And if you were to read the Committee can go beyond what the general rules say. SO this BS poll is meaningless except for those wanting to stir the pot or go after blood in the wrong way..


I posted the same comment on the ASA forum sonny, but it disappeared!


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## FrzrFilling (Oct 6, 2009)

Deer Slayer I said:


> thats his answer im not the richest man but really who buys their 3d binocs at a garage sale? anybody


Well to be honest, I bought my at an estate auction. Garage sale price. However, that to me isn't the issue. When you get a new pair of optics, you check out what all the buttons/dials are for - even if you are a true amateur like me. That being the case, I would have found out these were range-finding binos and never taken them on a shoot that didn't allow range finders. 

I havent' decided for sure my vote but my vote doesn't really matter. ASA board decision is what matters. I have only attended two Pro-Am events (Metropolis two separate years.) And knowing that the majority of these shooters are very avid shooters. If I read the rule, it states that rangefinders are not allowed on the "unknown" yardage ranges. So I am asking (do all the avid shooters with their chairs, supply boxes, or whatever, have their rangefinders in their seats? Even if they do not pull them out, is that a violation of the rule? Probably, I know that is splitting hairs. But for the legalists on this site, whether the range finder is used or not, it is not allowed on the range. Both are violations. Yes, the use of it is truly the violation of the intent of the rule. Then trying to hide the usage or beign deceptive does tend to lean toward "intent" to violate the rule. 

I still struggle with "pulling" the line versus cutting the line. I would like to see that rule changed so that a portion of the arrow must touch the raised foam inside the scoring line. Sure, it would hurt me as much as any one but would that be easier to score? Also, when Novice shooters are shooting plus 20 and beyond, I wonder about their honest categorization.


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## Hallsway (Jan 16, 2009)

Who sells a pair of Zeiss Binos with RF technology for $25.00? Wow. I can never find those deals... I would like to know if the person who had the "garage sale" does or has ever shot 3D tournaments? Is this the only pair that has been sold? Is there more out there like this? There is more to this story. Has to be.


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## bowmanxx (Feb 4, 2009)

There has always been cheating at these evemts as long as I can remember. As long as the cheaters keep getting a slap on the wrist it will continue. If the asa truely wants to stop the cheating they need to ban the cheaters for life and send a strong message, CHEAT AND YOUR DONE!


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

Hallsway said:


> Who sells a pair of Zeiss Binos with RF technology for $25.00? Wow. I can never find those deals... I would like to know if the person who had the "garage sale" does or has ever shot 3D tournaments? Is this the only pair that has been sold? Is there more out there like this? There is more to this story. Has to be.


Lots of people sell things and don't know the value of the item, happens every day. Just saying.


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

bowmanxx said:


> There has always been cheating at these evemts as long as I can remember. As long as the cheaters keep getting a slap on the wrist it will continue. If the asa truely wants to stop the cheating they need to ban the cheaters for life and send a strong message, CHEAT AND YOUR DONE!


I think ASA does a very good job keeping things up and up. For the most part they let the people police the tournments and step in when they are needed and that's fine with me. I hope they keep doing what their doing and not turn this event into a gastapo just because of one insencedent. It's sad but it's true there is always going to be cheats -it's part of life and we all have to deal with it. As for this insencedent I think he has already got pretty much what he diserves - he got DQ'ed and black balled by his peers and he will never feel confortable showing his face again at any archery tournment, and that's a little more than just a slap on the wrist.


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