# Limbs on a Push-Pull (Smooth-Solid) Spectrum



## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

So Vittorio has said something in the past about limbs that has kind of stuck in my had as I work on my release. To paraphrase:

Limbs with a very *smooth* back end tend to be favored by shooters that expand through the clicker primarily by *pulling* (NTS, I believe, was an example given).
Limbs with a more *solid* back end tend to be favored by shooters that expand through the clicker primarily by *pushing* (as Michele does).

So what I would like to know is what does the spectrum look like. I figure we can probably crowd-source this information from experience and draw force curves to have a good reference for when archers are looking to buy limbs. We all get that bug at some point (except those of us with mythical perfect limbs from now defunct companies).

Listed from Smooth to Stiff (position is relative, when dataset is large enough adjacent positions can be considered nearly identical)

*Brand**Model**Data Type**Data Source*BorderHex seriesPers. Exp.Limbwalker, FerrumVeritasBorderCVXWDFCTradLabUukhaX-Curve seriesDFC, Pers. Exp.Uukha, bluedevil49UukhaS-Curve seriesDFCUukha, KaminskiMorrisonMax 6DFCTradLabUukhaCurve seriesDFC, Pers. Exp.Uukha, bluedevil49W&WMXT-GMfg Chart, ReviewW&W, KaminskiGilloGTL-88Mfg Desc., Pers. Exp.Vittorio, LimbwalkerW&WMXT-10DFC, Mfg ChartKaminski, W&WHoytVelos (ILF)DFCKaminskiMKZestDFCShoreShotHoytVelos (Trad)DFCTradLabMKVeracityDFCTradLab, ShoreShotW&WNS-GMfg Chart, DFC, ReviewW&W, ShoreShotGalaxyGold StarDFC, Pers. Exp.TradLab, FerrumVeritasW&WInno ExPower/CX7DFC, Mfg Chart, Pers Exp.TradLab, W&W, LimbwalkerSamickMastersPers Exp.LimbwalkerSkyJacksPers Exp.LimbwalkerW&WWinactPers. Exp.LimbwalkerWNSFC-100Pers. Exp. Rael84GalaxySilver StarPers. Exp.FerrumVeritasSFAxiomPers. ExpcalbowdudeW&WSynerzyPers. ExpcalbowdudePSEExpressionPers. Exp.Limbwalker, Rael84GalaxyBronze StarPers. Exp. calbowdude
So what limbs are you shooting? Would you say that they're smooth or stiff on the back end? How do they compare to other limbs you've shot (such as limbs already on the list)? Is there anything you disagree with?


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## bluedevil49 (Jun 22, 2012)

I've shot most of the Uukha's and from my personal experience I would list them from Smooth to Stiff, x-curves, s-curves and stiffest would be the curves. Pretty sure the DFC's on their website (and archived sites) would indicate the same.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I'd love to put economy models on here too, like WNS and Galaxy. I just have no idea how/where they stack up against top/higher end limbs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Smoothest limbs I've ever shot on the back end were Border Hex-5, closely followed by Gillo GTL 88's. 

Middle of the range would be W&W Inno's, Samick Masters, and SKY (Jacks, Conquests) - in that order

Stiffer yet would be Winact

Stiffest would be PSE X-Presson


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

John beat me to it, Sky Jacks are mid-stiff for me. Smoothest to stiffest I've ever shot are Uukha SX (friend's limbs), Border Hex 6.5, Border Hex 5, Dryad RCTX. Then in the middle: Border CV wood core, Hoyt G3, Win Ex Prime, Sky Jacks, Win NS-G, MK Zest. Although this group has the least amount of spread due to the fact that I don't have all of these limbs in my possession, or never had them in my possession, not to mention I tried these over a period of several years, so my recall isn't exact. Stiffest limbs were Galaxy Bronze star, PSE Xpressions, Win and Win Synerzy, SF Axiom

Interestingly, I'm a push pull archer, and yet shot some of the best scores with the PSE Xpressions.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

If it helps, I have data for a few different Border limb models.

The HEX4, CVW and CVH limbs all measured around 1.6lbs/inch gained from 28 to 32in ATA draw.

(The HEXV-Hs measured 1.2lbs/in, but they're only [email protected], so I'd expect a lower figure).

The CVX-H limbs come in at 1.1lbs/in over the same range, and the HEX7.5-Ws I tested were only 0.7lbs/in.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

The logical complement to comments about expansion is that what you call "soft" limbs are more forgiving in terms of small draw length variations in Bare Bow (including string walking variations).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> The logical complement to comments about expansion is that what you call "soft" limbs are more forgiving in terms of small draw length variations in Bare Bow (including string walking variations).


After setting up the GTL 88's on my GT riser for barebow, I can absolutely see the logic here.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Vittorio said:


> The logical complement to comments about expansion is that what you call "soft" limbs are more forgiving in terms of small draw length variations in Bare Bow (including string walking variations).


While I definitely agree with this in theory, it doesn’t account for archers like Martin Ottosson who have said they prefer a more solid “wall” for things like cleaner release and repeatable draw length.

In this case, I’m not really trying to say which limbs are better, but rather to help archers that can’t try limbs get an idea of what other limbs feel similar to the limbs they are currently shooting and like. For upgrades, replacements, or going up in weight.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> While I definitely agree with this in theory, it doesn’t account for archers like Martin Ottosson who have said they prefer a more solid “wall” for things like cleaner release and repeatable draw length.
> .....


Discussed a bit with Martin in Porec, his comment is relative, not absolute. He said me he does not like super-curved limbs, but he uses medium/higth curved ones, like almost all other top-level BB archers . 
In theory you can build up a real "wall" for bare bow shooting adjusting brace, precharge of the limbs and changing limbs themselves. But, said wall will only be existing in a very limited range of draw, surely nothing similar you can get with cliker or with ... compound bow. No way to have it constant in stringwalking from 5 to 50 mt.


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## Rael84 (Feb 22, 2016)

Seconded on the X-pressions as very stiff. I have a set of FC-100s which feel a little less stiff than the X-pressions.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Hmmm think this is highly subjective and so hugely depends on how far you draw them vs limb length. MK Zest (for example) wouldn’t be anywhere near a Hoyt Velos IMO. They frequently give well over 2# per inch over 28” and closer to 3# per inch up near 32” (long limb). Others may have experience different numbers. Great limb but I wouldn’t categorise as soft. 

My 70” 34# Velos give the same draw weight at 32” as my 72” Border CV-W 34# when the Hoyts are fully wound up. (Hoyt measure limb mid point/Border at minimum). The Velos feels smoother even when the limb rockers are in the performance setting. For me anything softer than the Velos is unshootable with a clicker. 

Stretch


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

I think several has touched on the subject. S-Curve/super recurve have some advantage. But for fixed target i starting to doubt if its any good. Let me explain. 

I just did some shooting today after 5month break. Uukha is not "smoother". Its just more flat through the clicker in increased draw weight. Its 6-7lbs difference already at 15". 










So here is the ugly side of things. Uukha helped me at 30m. Stepping up to 50 with FC-100 and i almost missed the target. Collapsing shoulder and bowarm and much more with regular recurve limbs. 

So i'm fatiguing very quickly with FC-100 limbs. So Uukha seams to be good for archers out of shape..... But i struggled with finding the anchor point with such "floating" clicker zone with Gobi limbs. 

So when i'm in shape again do "i need" Uukha..... ? i don't like them but i shoot better with them for now.

*So question to you coaches*. Should an archer pick the easy route and score even with poor physic and form using
super recurve. Or actually get in shape with regular limbs ?


Draw weight was 39.9# for FC-100 and 39.4# on Gobi today. 

Gobi at 30m. 









FC-100 at 50m. 1 bareshaft in the grass and 2 in the wooden frame  out of picture.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Timevoid said:


> I think several has touched on the subject. S-Curve/super recurve have some advantage. But for fixed target i starting to doubt if its any good. Let me explain.
> 
> I just did some shooting today after 5month break. Uukha is not "smoother". Its just more flat through the clicker in increased draw weight. Its 6-7lbs difference already at 15".
> 
> ...


Post photo of fletched and bareshafts at the SAME distance.
So, 3 fletched and 2 bareshafts at 30 meter for both sets of limbs.
Post what brace height for both sets of limbs.

Then, tune the brace height and plunger for tightest groups with the Gobi limbs (3 fletched and 2 bareshafts) 30 meters.

Then, tune the brace height and plunger for tighest groups with the FC-100 limbs (3 fletched and 2 bareshafts) 30 meters.

Oh yeah. TAKE OFF the clicker. Shoot groups at 30 meters with no clicker.

Oh yeah. STart a new thread.


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> Post photo of fletched and bareshafts at the SAME distance.
> So, 3 fletched and 2 bareshafts at 30 meter for both sets of limbs.
> Post what brace height for both sets of limbs.
> 
> ...


Sorry but my post was not a question how you tune arrows. I could barely pull through the clicker with one set, creating back lean, collapse in both shoulder-tension and bowarm. 

I rephrase the question... Is super recurve "cheating" on form and could cause bad habits down the road ?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I have the Hex6.5 and you can’t cheat because they are very draw length oriented. You under-draw them and they are worse than a conventional limb. But they can give you bad habits because they load very quick in the first 15” - and actually you can get hurt if you are not fit when you shoot above #45 OTF. Not many archers have the tendons strong enough to be abused for #5-7 per 1” when the shoulders are in the worst position at the beginning of the cycle for hundreds of arrows per day.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Timevoid said:


> Sorry but my post was not a question how you tune arrows. I could barely pull through the clicker with one set, creating back lean, collapse in both shoulder-tension and bowarm.
> 
> I rephrase the question... Is super recurve "cheating" on form and could cause bad habits down the road ?


no.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Timevoid said:


> Sorry but my post was not a question how you tune arrows. I could barely pull through the clicker with one set, creating back lean, collapse in both shoulder-tension and bowarm.
> 
> I rephrase the question... Is super recurve "cheating" on form and could cause bad habits down the road ?


Your problem is not the super recurve versus regular limbs.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

I think I understand the question… as has been discussed in other threads Super Recurves can be detrimental to good clicker control for many. In simplistic terms, if you are trying to keep the arrow point moving all the time then usually as you get within a few mm of the clicker you can continue to apply your pressure and aim. With a Super Recurve the increase in draw weight can be down under 0.5# per inch, if you continue to apply your pressure the clicker drops. This encourages the archer to STOP and aim and then tweak the arrow through the clicker. Which of course you can do because of the profile But it is not a good idea.

So, to execute a shot through the clicker with a Super Recurve (without pointing and tweaking) you need to be nearly on aim when you hit your face and get to full aim very very quickly - most folks can’t do that.

Ironically what makes them a challenging choice for clicker shooters makes them a good choice for BB archers. (Reduction in sensitivity to drawlength errors).

My personal opinion is that a very soft clicker zone leads to more movement in my sight pin as being able to pull hard into the clicker stabilises the bow (Maybe just for me). With a soft clicker zone the pin wanders more. I see this even with my Velos (1.6# in the last inch) and they stabilize a little when the string tension is in performance over soft.

It doesn’t mean that you can’t use a clicker with Super Recurves and they will suit some. So the Uukha SCurve target limbs seem to be about 1.5# per inch which is a bit soft for me but OK. The Nature limbs appear to be down near 1# per inch which I couldn’t shoot (Or at best would take months to get used to) Border Hex 7.2 are less than 0.5# per inch which to me just seems unusable with a clicker for the way I shoot.

So I think I could adjust to the SCurve target profile - probably by increasing my draw weight a little (which of course has other effects). I wouldn’t feel comfortable with the Nature profile and the Hex 7.2 would be a non-starter. But it is very personal and can be OK as long as you focus on maintaining good form.

Your FC100 appear to have a very old school profile increasing at nearly 2.5# per inch so unless your form is good and you are pulling cleanly into the clicker they will be more difficult - especially if you stop and then try to start again. Also shooting these profiles side by side will be very difficult due to the profile extremes.

So in direct answer is yes, Super Recurves can allow you to develop bad habits but it is not the limb, it is you. Super Recurves that look like they belong on Santa‘s sled should be dabbled with with caution if you are a clicker shooter.

All my opinion and it will differ from archer to archer.

Stretch


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## Fly2High (Feb 25, 2019)

Since it has been said that draw length affects the feel, whether smooth or stiff, would it not be better to make a thread where we just post the draw force curves for a limb set and let the readers decide for themselves where they would be on the curve and therefore how it would feel for them? 

Would it be better to educate how to read a draw force curve so that more than just feel can be determined?

Does riser length affect the curve or can the curves just be standardized to a 25" riser, for example?

Frank


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

Fly2High said:


> Since it has been said that draw length affects the feel, whether smooth or stiff, would it not be better to make a thread where we just post the draw force curves for a limb set and let the readers decide for themselves where they would be on the curve and therefore how it would feel for them?
> 
> Would it be better to educate how to read a draw force curve so that more than just feel can be determined?
> 
> ...


Would probably have to be on risers with the same amount of deflex and preload.


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## Fly2High (Feb 25, 2019)

styks n stryngs said:


> Would probably have to be on risers with the same amount of deflex and preload.


Would reflex and preload just shift the curve left or right or up/down? Isn’t the delta in force be strictly with the limbs?


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

Fly2High said:


> Would reflex and preload just shift the curve left or right or up/down? Isn’t the delta in force be strictly with the limbs?


Yeah, but you wouldn't know exactly how much to the left or right or up or down. So limbs that compare fairly similarly on the same riser might look like completely different limbs, and you wouldn't know how it was different.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Fly2High said:


> Since it has been said that draw length affects the feel, whether smooth or stiff, would it not be better to make a thread where we just post the draw force curves for a limb set and let the readers decide for themselves where they would be on the curve and therefore how it would feel for them?
> 
> Would it be better to educate how to read a draw force curve so that more than just feel can be determined?
> 
> ...


If you have the capabilities of doing a full DFC for limbs, by all means. That would be very useful. But most manufacturers don't share them, and there are very few sites and reviewers that do.


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## wallacedelirium (Oct 26, 2013)

calbowdude said:


> John beat me to it, Sky Jacks are mid-stiff for me. Smoothest to stiffest I've ever shot are Uukha SX (friend's limbs), Border Hex 6.5, Border Hex 5, Dryad RCTX. Then in the middle: Border CV wood core, Hoyt G3, Win Ex Prime, Sky Jacks, Win NS-G, MK Zest. Although this group has the least amount of spread due to the fact that I don't have all of these limbs in my possession, or never had them in my possession, not to mention I tried these over a period of several years, so my recall isn't exact. Stiffest limbs were Galaxy Bronze star, PSE Xpressions, Win and Win Synerzy, SF Axiom
> 
> Interestingly, I'm a push pull archer, and yet shot some of the best scores with the PSE Xpressions.


How are the NS-G past 28? I’ve heard they hit a wall. I have a 31” DL and am looking at either some long NS or Long Inno ex power, not sure which to pick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

wallacedelirium said:


> How are the NS-G past 28? I’ve heard they hit a wall. I have a 31” DL and am looking at either some long NS or Long Inno ex power, not sure which to pick.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did not like them, even at just a little more than 29. They are fast as hell though. I’d rather shoot the EX Power, even if they’re not as fast.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Try mk Mx!


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## wallacedelirium (Oct 26, 2013)

ryan b. said:


> Ex power are more smooth.
> 
> Try mk Mx!



I’ve had my eye on the MX and L3s on alternative’s site. Ive been hunting for some veracity’s too, heard great things!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

ryan b. said:


> Ex power are more smooth.
> 
> Try mk Mx!


Ns is more smooth I typed it backwards. As in smoother at longer draw.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

wallacedelirium said:


> I’ve had my eye on the MX and L3s on alternative’s site. Ive been hunting for some veracity’s too, heard great things!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My son shoots L3's and they are excellent value in our experience. His are #36 and at his 31"dl, he's 42.5otf. Still smooth at that dl

I've heard the more expensive MK limbs are even better but haven't tried them.


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Smoothest limbs I've ever shot on the back end were Border Hex-5, closely followed by Gillo GTL 88's.
> 
> Middle of the range would be W&W Inno's, Samick Masters, and SKY (Jacks, Conquests) - in that order
> 
> ...


I think I heard that the X-pression limbs were Winex limbs with a PSE label if that is another data point.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Cuthbert said:


> I think I heard that the X-pression limbs were Winex limbs with a PSE label if that is another data point.


X-Pressions were made by WinWin but had a hybrid honeycomb foam/solid foam core which made them slightly different than the WinEx.


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