# VIEWPOINT-Elitist Archery Attitude.



## VA. Bowbender (Mar 31, 2006)

I will probably get jumped all over for this but I have to express what I'm seeing. 
I've been shooting recurves for over 50 years. When I started there was no "traditional" archery we were all just Bowhunters or Archers. As compounds came into their own there became an elitist attitude among them where they looked down at the recurve and longbow shooters. They also developed somewhat of a snobby attitude toward each other. Now I see a lot of admiration for what we can do with our bows. 
Now what I'm seeing on different forums is a complete reversal of roles. The "traditional" shooters are developing the same attitude toward the high tech archers and even among the ranks of traditional shooters. 
Now I do have to say that when I go to some of the various rendezvous there still exists a tight camaraderie. 
If we are to maintain what we all love to do, shoot arrows at things, shouldn't we try to find a more common ground? Or the famous quote "can't we all just get along"? 

How do you feel about this? Have you seen the same? Why?

Try to keep it a civil discussion.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

If you read the news you'll see that people are goofy. If I pay too much attention to what they think or say I get irritated and have trouble enjoying the things that I should be enjoying.

We don't need much in the way of common ground. Go your own way.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

I have only been bending a set of limbs for 42-43 years VA. Bowbender, so you must be OLD. :wink:

Aside from that, I have seen pretty much exactly what you describe. The vast majority of compounders I run into seem genuinely interested in how the "traditional" bows shoot and look these days. The only negativity I have heard since switching to singlestrings exclusively have come from the trad crowd. Being a string walker, my families name has been questioned, and getting caught carrying a set of binoculars on a 3-D fun only course at a rendezvous nearly caused an international incident. In my short time with singlestrings only, my personal experiences seem to indicate that the absolute worst shooters have the least friendly attitudes…….like they bit into a sour pickle with a sore tooth. :lol:

One thing about compound shooters that burns me is……..when they want to shoot my bows they can, because there is no set draw length. When I want to shoot theirs while they are enjoying mine, the draw length is usually way too short, or way too long, leaving me to sit there and watch.:sad:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Unfortunately elitist attitudes are a part of human nature which is usually based on the ego driven by insecurities to make someone feel better about themselves.

You see this in gangs all the time or where there is a collective group of people pursuing similar hobbies or activities.

There's also Ford vs Chevy. Hoyt vs Win Win. It can be found any where...but it doesn't have to be that way. People choose to think and be that way. No one forces a person to think or act a certain way.

Just because an archer shoots this type of bow or that type of bow...or uses this technique or that technique....does NOT make them any better than any other archer.

Ray :shade:


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## Vegeman (Jan 9, 2014)

Archery is archery. There's a place for every piece of equipment (hence it being invented). Its a bit like an artists palette...sure you can paint with one color, or one brush...but where's the fun or excitement in that. It'll just limit you.


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## ghoster808 (Jun 29, 2007)

VA, I think people are still pretty much the same. Back in the day though if you were talking archery it was face to face. If you did not agree with a persons view you kept a civil tongue and let tact and civility rule the day. In the end you developed a relationship with all in the circle of people sharing a common interest. Today with the internet being what it is conversations take on at times a very impersonal aspect. Nuances in speech do not translate well when written and misperception happens a lot. Some don't write so well and some don't read so well too. 
Then there's a few who are agressive from the safety of their laptops, speaking to people in a manner that they would never dream of doing face to face. It's just the nature of the beast. 
The web is a huge knowlege and info conduit that breeds its own set of problems especially in the myriad of different forums now available. 
Well thats my 2 tarnished centavos :^)


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Unfortunately elitist attitudes are a part of human nature which is usually based on the ego driven by insecurities to make someone feel better about themselves.
> 
> You see this in gangs all the time or where there is a collective group of people pursuing similar hobbies or activities.
> 
> ...



Yep, one is made to tow, one to be towed. :wink:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

VA. Bowbender said:


> I will probably get jumped all over for this but I have to express what I'm seeing.
> I've been shooting recurves for over 50 years. When I started there was no "traditional" archery we were all just Bowhunters or Archers. As compounds came into their own there became an elitist attitude among them where they looked down at the recurve and longbow shooters.


Actually?....back then?...I was a stick bow shooter who fell into a 2 decade long lust with wheelies yet felt just the opposite...as I kind of felt that what I was doing at the time was "Cheating The Process/Journey" by using a bow with a mechanical advantage and the only thing that made me feel a little better about it was the fact that I drew the line with mechanical releases...while I did try them?...I loathed what they robbed the new archers of appreciating...the time, effort and dedication it took to become a good finger shooter....yet at the same time?...I knew the stick bow guys must've felt the same about me and my wheels...which is why I always commended them and held them in the highest regard for toughing it out...sticking with it...and maintaining a representation of what the purist form of archery truly is....right, wrong or indifferent?...It is how I felt at the time and still do. 



VA. Bowbender said:


> They also developed somewhat of a snobby attitude toward each other.


And man did I see that!....I was a Range Officer and then VP of our local club when the 3D thing started....and man what a war that was...us *******, finger-shoot'in hunter types were loving on it while the freestyle target archers were hating life...to the point that we had to agree on an "Every Other Month Basis" to hold a Target Round shoot and then alternate with 3D round shoots...and at first?...as soon as the freestylers realized their low poundage target rigs weren't optimum for unknown yardage 3D's?...they had a hissy and boycotted our 3D shoots and would only show at the target shoots every other month...but?...we did the same with their paper shoots! LOL!....ultimately?...about 1/2 way through that first year?...none of us could take it anymore and except for the 1% hold-outs?...we all started attending both again...but the freestyle target archers still didn't like it...one argument they made against it while I was VP was "The Exuberant Cost Of Mckenzie 3D Targets"...where I argued back with a treasurers report that showed while we charged $10 (back then) for a 3D shoot?...we only charged $7 for a paper shoot....but while the paper shoots would only draw maybe 25-40 archers?...our 3D shoots would draw 80-100 archers....so the 3D targets were more than funding themselves and what was driving our club financially and?...is how we afforded our first club 3-Wheeler and trailer for toting the dang things through the woods for set up and tear down! LOL!.....and man they didn't like that....so what did they do?....it took tem about 3 years.....but managed to finagle a buddy system of freestyle target archers getting nominated at club officer election time...this disgusted many....and a few years after that?....the club folded....I now drive about 40 miles north to attend "a local shoot".  



VA. Bowbender said:


> Now I see a lot of admiration for what we can do with our bows.


Yep...I get quite a bit of that when attending mixed shoots these days...and I really felt proud when several referred to me as "The Guy Shooting The Wood Arrows" as though it absolutely blew their minds that anybody was still doing that these days! :laugh: 



VA. Bowbender said:


> Now what I'm seeing on different forums is a complete reversal of roles. The "traditional" shooters are developing the same attitude toward the high tech archers and even among the ranks of traditional shooters.


Despite the above tragic and ill-fated ending of our local club years ago?...I guess I still have a thing about archers "starting out with mech. releases" but...I do my best to respect all forms....hasn't always worked but I try! :laugh: 



VA. Bowbender said:


> Now I do have to say that when I go to some of the various rendezvous there still exists a tight camaraderie.
> If we are to maintain what we all love to do, shoot arrows at things, shouldn't we try to find a more common ground?


Yes, absolutely and always!:thumbs_up 



VA. Bowbender said:


> Or the famous quote "can't we all just get along"?


Short realistic answer?..."NO"...there's always going to be a certain contingent of the gregarious, self-consumed superstar types...all's we can hope is that there's enough soft spoken level headed types smart enough, wise enough and tactful enough to keep them in check. 



VA. Bowbender said:


> How do you feel about this?


it is what it is...people...they come in all shapes, sizes and?..."personality types" 



VA. Bowbender said:


> Have you seen the same?


Absolutely, yes and always! :laugh: 



VA. Bowbender said:


> Why?


It was a plan by God to help us develop and perfect our "Coping Skills" 

The cool thing?...it's been my experience that no matter what shoot or type of shoot I ever went to and attended?...and old cliché always seemed to come into play...

*"Birds Of A Feather"*

and these days?...ain't many "Vanes" hanging around my campfires! :laugh:

now here...






Hope that cheers you up and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I honestly don't see that around the shoots I go to. Everyone is friendly. I've always found if you treat others in a friendly manner they will in turn treat you in a freindly manner.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Guys I don't think it's archery. There are people out there that think they are better than the rest of us. We are all the same it's just some of us haven't figured it out yet.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Just don't bad mouth my Chevy !!!!!:mg:


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I am the only recurve/longbow shooter that I know of at two local clubs I go to. Nothing but, way to goes, nice looking bow, wish I had one, I need to get one. Not one single negative word. Another club that I go to sometimes is 34 miles away. I ran into a guy shooting a very nice wood recurve and I tried to start up a friendly conversation with him. It did not happen. Maybe he was having a bad day I don't know but he was rude.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Big Country said:


> In my short time with singlestrings only, my personal experiences seem to indicate that the absolute worst shooters have the least friendly attitudes…….like they bit into a sour pickle with a sore tooth. :lol:


Dead on.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Unfortunately elitist attitudes are a part of human nature which is usually based on the ego driven by insecurities to make someone feel better about themselves.
> 
> You see this in gangs all the time or where there is a collective group of people pursuing similar hobbies or activities.
> 
> ...


Spot on, every where you look there's an "I'm/We're better than you" attitude around. The vehicle debates is a perfect example of just bickering to bicker: how does what someone else drives effect you?

That said, I have seen a lot more snobbery come from traditional shooters than compound shooters. Actually, other than one kid who didn't know any better, the only time I had someone bad mouth traditional shooters was a fellow who had experienced the "holier than thou" crowd who couldn't keep them on a 2'x2' block at twenty yards. We shot a few rounds together (after he learned I was a stikbow toter) and he lost that attitude pretty quickly.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

You guys haven't heard gun-owners debating that "the 308 is the ultimate round" or "30-30s can't hold a candle to 308"? What about 9 mm vs 45s etc etc ad nauseam. And IPSC guys who'd never ever consider IDPA and thus stack the BOD of the club to ensure IDPA never gets in? 

Compound vs Recurve? Never seen a problem in my club. And the Olympic style coach there shoots a compound!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Most of it this side of the pond is just friendly banter, good shooting is respected regardless of equipment or style.

I did shoot once with a Compound who before we started shooting stated that he hoped for some competition in his group (we had one woman and Son all of us Longbows) I trashed his arrow on the very first target (40y), smiled and asked " Is that good enough for you" it broke the ice and we all had a blast that day, I tried very hard to keep up with him and ended up with the highest unsighted score of the day, one of the reasons I enjoy shooting with Compounds, I try and keep up and it normally ups my game/score.

In Estonia Longbow shooters rule with 90% in this div, the 5 (Field/3D) Compounds we have, all started off as Longbows so no elitist attitudes, nobody seems to look down at anybody for good or bad shooting. I didn't always experience this attitude in the UK. I think one of the things that has helped is the very open policy between Field and Target shooters, you only need to be a member of one assoc and you can shoot any tourney Target or Field in Estonia, the only Coaching qualification that is valid here is Fita coaching so a lot of interaction between Field and Target shooters, this seems to have developed a healthy respect on both sides.


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## Joe Hohmann (Oct 24, 2013)

Another hobby of mine is electric trains...talk about bickering over whose toys are best. Another is 1:43 model cars...my $40. Minichamps is better than your $120. Brooklin. I read a lot of books...ever read opposing Amazon book reviews? However, I don't know anyone else involved with archery, so I just argue with myself.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

reddogge said:


> I honestly don't see that around the shoots I go to. Everyone is friendly. I've always found if you treat others in a friendly manner they will in turn treat you in a freindly manner.


I'm with you there red. Here on Archery talk traditional, different story. Tradtalk and Archery talk fingers are same as around shoots, friendly.
Dan


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## Bytesback (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm new to archery and this forum, only been here a year, but I have only seen one case of "elitist" attitude and even then the people he was rude to chose to deal with him respectfully. Maybe I will see more cases like this as time goes on, however as it stands now I have been nothing but impressed with the people I have met in person or online in the traditional archery camp.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

You really can never tell about people, but an elitist attitude is most times just seen in others from a perspective of insecurity just as an insecure attitude is many times seen in others from an elitist attitude. It's not the ones who seem elite in attitude you really need to worry about, it's the ones who claim others are insecure or elitist. That's a key clue the person is not only a true elitist, but is also insecure. The two traits are almost inseparable. Having a strong opinion just makes you opinionated, not elite.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

The only static I've ever gotten was from stick bow shooters. The compound guys just seem to care more about where your arrow is and less about how it got there. 

Matt


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

A good start might be to stop referring to compound bows as having training wheels.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

If you're an archer that thinks your style, your form and your technique is superior to anyone else's...you may be an 'elitist'...LOL :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If you're an archer that thinks your style, your form and your technique is superior to anyone else's...you may be an 'elitist'...LOL :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


I think all are equal, so I'm OK


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> I think all are equal, so I'm OK


Awesome! Hail Asbell...the guru for FITA style archers LOL :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## fieldnfeathers (Nov 7, 2013)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If you're an archer that thinks your style, your form and your technique is superior to anyone else's...you may be an 'elitist'...LOL :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


:smile: 

My favorite........_The style and technique that will best suit you is dependent on YOUR specific goals, abilities and personality. _

One of the best statements I've ever read relating to archery. Wonder who said that? LOL! :cheers:

It's all archery to me. Whatever puts a smile on your face and tension on the string.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I've seen it many times over the years in archery, some groups seem more prone to it than others, but the ones I really like have to do with shooting heavy bows....sure get tired of hearing how unnecessary it is, or how my shoulders are going to explode in a very short time,lol.....


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sanford said:


> I think all are equal, so I'm OK


So true *but* some are more equal than others:wink:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> So true *but* some are more equal than others:wink:


Yes, Steve, some archery communities can resemble a true "_Animal Farm_"


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## KennyO (Feb 5, 2003)

I've gotten more complements and reactions of being impressed from the compound shooters than anything. They are usually amazed when you can hit something without sights and rests and cams. 

I very seldom shoot my compound anymore, but there are compound shooters who i respect and admire. Same with trad archers.

To me they are a completely different game, with different standards. 

People can like to act like their way is better than yours, i quit caring what people think once i finished puberty. Lol


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

KennyO said:


> I've gotten more complements and reactions of being impressed from the compound shooters than anything. They are usually amazed when you can hit something without sights and rests and cams.


After all the trouble a fellow can go through just to get his compound set up so it's shooting well for him I'm not suprised how astounded folks are. Sometimes I feel like folks who shoot compounds are being sold hassles.

Ray, there's feeling your way is the only way then there's acknowledging that there are superior methods. For instance, a floating anchor short-draw style (based on Native styles) is not going to be as accurate as a method with a fixed anchor. Simple as that. A quick, snap shooting style like G. Fred Asbell's style is not going to be as accurate on long range targets as a more deliberate style as used in FITA or Olypmic styled shooting.

There is no "best" but for every application there is usually a "better".


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Ray, there's feeling your way is the only way then there's acknowledging that there are superior methods. For instance, a floating anchor short-draw style (based on Native styles) is not going to be as accurate as a method with a fixed anchor. Simple as that. A quick, snap shooting style like G. Fred Asbell's style is not going to be as accurate on long range targets as a more deliberate style as used in FITA or Olypmic styled shooting.
> 
> There is no "best" but for every application there is usually a "better".


Kegan,

That's EXACTLY what I've been saying...but there are a few here who look down upon Asbell's style or some other styles and techniques no matter who is using it and why.

FITA style is NOT the 'elite' of all archery styles...even though some people try to claim it is.

Like we've BOTH said before....there is no 'best' or 'elite' but for every application/situation...there is usually a 'better' or more generally accepted way to shoot a bow.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

fieldnfeathers said:


> My favorite........_The style and technique that will best suit you is dependent on YOUR specific goals, abilities and personality. _
> 
> One of the best statements I've ever read relating to archery. Wonder who said that? LOL! :cheers:
> 
> It's all archery to me. Whatever puts a smile on your face and tension on the string.


:thumbs_up



voodoofire1 said:


> I've seen it many times over the years in archery, some groups seem more prone to it than others, but the ones I really like have to do with shooting heavy bows....sure get tired of hearing how unnecessary it is, or how my shoulders are going to explode in a very short time,lol.....


LOL...I know...right :wink:



steve morley said:


> So true *but* some are more equal than others:wink:


And some are the 'equalist' of them ALL :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Kegan,
> 
> That's EXACTLY what I've been saying...but there are a few here who look down upon Asbell's style or some other styles and techniques no matter who is using it and why.
> 
> ...


These last two post are what I would say, sums it up, Keagan, and Black wolf


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Most everybody I've met has been pretty polite, at least to my face, and usually interested in whatever...

There is still some bashing, usually when the other party is not around to defend themselves. I still consider myself somebody who shoots a compound bow, even if not often, so I may interject one way or another, and most of the time, the bashing goes away at that.

I think it's a general human tendency to try to turn preference into right and wrong. I too have noticed that the best shooters tend to be the most agnostic about styles of shooting, in terms of better or worse. One of the best 'Instinctive' shooters I know doesn't really care whether anybody else competing against him uses point of aim, gap, string walking, whatever. He simply prefers visualizing the path of the arrow, because he likes the simplicity of the method, and it works for him, because he shoots a _lot._ One of the best barebow recurve shooters I've met is also a fantastic freestyle compound shooter. To each their own.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

VA. Bowbender said:


> I will probably get jumped all over for this but I have to express what I'm seeing.
> I've been shooting recurves for over 50 years. When I started there was no "traditional" archery we were all just Bowhunters or Archers. As compounds came into their own there became an elitist attitude among them where they looked down at the recurve and longbow shooters. They also developed somewhat of a snobby attitude toward each other. Now I see a lot of admiration for what we can do with our bows.
> Now what I'm seeing on different forums is a complete reversal of roles. The "traditional" shooters are developing the same attitude toward the high tech archers and even among the ranks of traditional shooters.
> Now I do have to say that when I go to some of the various rendezvous there still exists a tight camaraderie.
> ...


I've never even thought about a compound bow... same reason why I use a muzzleloader exclusively for hunting and shooting mostly as well.. never had any reason to shoot a 60 yard shot and never had any reason to have to "drill it in the X ring". My argument with Archers is in the area of unity and especially in the discussion of crossbows!


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

All hobbies have this issue whether you are racing classic Pontiacs, collecting stamps or shooting a bow. Sooner or later you will run into that group that will tell you "people like YOU are ruining OUR hobby". 

Life is short, I'd rather talk about what I'm "for" then what I am "against"...it's all archery and its all fun!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That's EXACTLY what I've been saying...but there are a few here who look down upon Asbell's style or some other styles and techniques no matter who is using it and why.
> Ray :shade:


If a man is confident about his opinions, being he's right or wrong, he can't see others as "looking down" on him unless he's operating from a position of insecurity about his position. IOW, claiming something is best is not claiming others are inferior. Inferiority is a personal feeling one possesses, not one others pass down.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Unity?....In Archery?....Sounds like the big tent theory, which archery already is, the problem being the tent has so many holes it seems like a net sometimes.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ray, understood. 

It would help such qualifications of "better" if accuracy was also explained in a more quanitfiable amount. Unfortunately that's like pulling teeth at times.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I haven't noticed compound shooting putting their nose in the air, not even on the forums. The contentions concerning stick bows seem to be between stick bow shooters and I've only seen that on the forums.

The subject of hunting is worse. You have to hunt "their way" or you aren't a "real hunter". Baiting isn't "fair chase" and you aren't a hunter if you do it but it's been around since man first thought of hunting. At the same time, hanging trail cams that text your phone every time something walks by is ok and so is hanging store bought tree stands all over the place. Oh and corn is bait but doe in heat scent and mock scrapes or leasing the best food plot around aren't. LOL I don't get it.

On these matters of hunting we have a lot of "sportsmen" hounding the DNR to force you to hunt their way.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I personally don't care what ANYONE thinks of my style or technique.

Who and what I care about are the new archers or those still looking to learn something.

I want them to realize there are advantages and disadvantages with every technique under specific circumstances and not get pigeonholed into thinking that they're doing something wrong if their not following the opinions of an 'elitist'.

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I want them to realize there are advantages and disadvantages with every technique under specific circumstances and not get pigeonholed into thinking that they're doing something wrong if their not following the opinions of an 'elitist'.
> 
> Ray :shade:


I think this is an important point. What I find most rewarding in Archery, is not only getting better at it, but the process of discovery. Learn from those with more experience, but also realize that the individual needs to adapt the things that work for others to work for them, for what they want to achieve. It's not a copy and paste kind of process. I love sharing what works for me, and helping people learn what I think could offer them benefit, but at the same time, just as I can't make what works well for somebody else necessarily work for me, or perhaps I simply don't want to, same goes out as it goes in.

Ultimately, in my opinion, the greatest reward is the individual learning to explore themselves, with the help of others. If we lose sight of that, we all do each other, and ourselves, a disservice.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> Ray, understood.
> 
> It would help such qualifications of "better" if accuracy was also explained in a more quanitfiable amount. Unfortunately that's like pulling teeth at times.


It's not that complicated or subjective. "Accuracy" and "precision" have well known definitions and there are well accepted methods of determining whether or not accuracy and precision are satisfactory given the performance requirements (the target). It's just a matter of measuring the accuracy and precision and calculating the probability that you'll hit the target. The result is referred to as "capability". It's just numbers.


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

I still say the asian women archers are the best archers in the world! :shade:
scout4


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

scout4 said:


> I still say the asian women archers are the best archers in the world! :shade:
> scout4


I agree. They're the best at exactly what they do but I'm not convinced they would be the best at horseback archery or every other style and form of archery.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Personally...I think in order to determine who the overall 'best' archers in the world would be to create a competition that involved several different types of competition.

For example: Unmarked Field Round, NFAA 300 round, American Round, Aerial Target Round and a Pop Up 3D Round.

I'd definitely save up my pennies for a vacation to compete in a competition like that!

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ray, are you doing any major competitions this year??


Dewayne


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## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

meh....we all fling small spears at high speeds using sticks and string. The mechanics may be a bit different, but we're all brothers in arms.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The only 'major' competition I use to do annually was at our local CTAS shoot where anywhere from 300 - 500 archers would compete...but they eliminated the Big 3D competition a few years ago and I've kind of lost interest in going. 

Why?

Ray :shade:


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

I see it around here a little, but locally, I don't. Every one likes to shoot where I go. We've compound and trad. No really seen any olympic style.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Just don't bad mouth my Chevy !!!!!:mg:


Yeah, right, GMc.lol


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I personally don't care what ANYONE thinks of my style or technique.
> 
> Who and what I care about are the new archers or those still looking to learn something.
> 
> ...


Ray, I haven't seen anyone comment or criticize your tecnique. Your skill speaks for itself. I understand the distaste for people with a "my way or the highway" mentality but it seems you are actively searching out elitism just to fight it, and looking for it in the wrong place.

The same beginners you're trying to avoid being mislead have a difficult time sorting through different approaches when objective comparisons (scores) are far less available (at least online) as opposed to subjective comparisons (feel). Vague references to group size and accuracy are useless without some sort of measure. The issue I see is that there are certain individuals who seem dogged about their belief that suddenly there is a fundamental difference in how you should shoot a bow when it comes to the application of hunting that can not manifest itself on a target range of any kind. These individuals seem to have an opinion that shooting at a target where you tally a final score is counter productive to hunting, and such styles are only accurate on targets and do not carry well into the woods. This is the source of a lot of arguements about the merit of different tecniques, and I believe on of the biggest issue behind the REAL elitism that we see from traditional archers these days.

As MGF points out accuracy _isn't_ so subjective. If you're interested in becoming a better shot, especially in given fields, simply compare the top shooters in those field to see the similarities between them, and the scores those similarities produce. If a person, on the other hand, ignores the objective comparisons but relies merely on subjective comparisons, you see why threads quickly dissolve into utter drivel and why a "holier than thou" attitude towards others remains a constant problem.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

kegan said:


> Ray, I haven't seen anyone comment or criticize your tecnique. Your skill speaks for itself. I understand the distaste for people with a "my way or the highway" mentality but it seems you are actively searching out elitism just to fight it, and looking for it in the wrong place.
> 
> The same beginners you're trying to avoid being mislead have a difficult time sorting through different approaches when objective comparisons (scores) are far less available (at least online) as opposed to subjective comparisons (feel). Vague references to group size and accuracy are useless without some sort of measure. The issue I see is that there are certain individuals who seem dogged about their belief that suddenly there is a fundamental difference in how you should shoot a bow when it comes to the application of hunting that can not manifest itself on a target range of any kind. These individuals seem to have an opinion that shooting at a target where you tally a final score is counter productive to hunting, and such styles are only accurate on targets and do not carry well into the woods. This is the source of a lot of arguements about the merit of different tecniques, and I believe on of the biggest issue behind the REAL elitism that we see from traditional archers these days.
> 
> As MGF points out accuracy _isn't_ so subjective. If you're interested in becoming a better shot, especially in given fields, simply compare the top shooters in those field to see the similarities between them, and the scores those similarities produce. If a person, on the other hand, ignores the objective comparisons but relies merely on subjective comparisons, you see why threads quickly dissolve into utter drivel and why a "holier than thou" attitude towards others remains a constant problem.


Kegan, I am going to nominate you for a Pulitzer prize. Well said, and you covered many points with extreme lucidity.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

kegan said:


> As MGF points out accuracy _isn't_ so subjective. If you're interested in becoming a better shot, especially in given fields, simply compare the top shooters in those field to see the similarities between them, and the scores those similarities produce. If a person, on the other hand, ignores the objective comparisons but relies merely on subjective comparisons, you see why threads quickly dissolve into utter drivel and why a "holier than thou" attitude towards others remains a constant problem.


Fully agree, and as a past avid hunter of many decades, I stand on subjective measure as being one mixed with a lot of woodsman skill, opportunity, and plain dumb luck - all in no apparent priority. Hunting or fishing, the accuracy factor of it is in placing the object in the exact location needed on the target, closer the better, lure, bullet, or broadhead - that's the objective measure. If there really is such a thing as jump shooting deer on the fly, you better be twice as accurate, twice as fast. Fast don't make up for any deficiency. I know growing up shooting at deer in the East Texas Big Thicket, even 00 buckshot was not quick enough to be accurate enough for such nonsense.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks, Itbeso!

Sanford, I didn't mean subjective so far as success in the woods, as that carries all of the points you offered (skill and woodsmanship) as well as local game populations, available plots to hunt, and time available to be afield. The more subjective measures being "it feels better" or "I just seem to shoot better" without any sort of quantifiable reference. Without real feedback we get lured into "new toy/comfy chair" problems. Trying something new briefly and basing your opinion on how that experience felt is of little value because that's entirely subjective. The three under vs. split finger debate is a perfect example of people not using what's necessarily more accurate for them in a quanitifiable manner, but rather what "feels" better when they try both in their backyard one afternoon.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I agree. IMO, the shooter who is trying to learn (maybe a beginner?) Should consider the "best practices" of archers involved in similar activities even if they don't try to adopt a complete method from any individual archer.

Maybe that's not so clear. Let me grab an example. One of the archers I watch is Jimmy Blackmon. For me, he makes a good example because he shoots several disciplines (indoor, field, 3-d, whatever) and he's a successful hunter...and I would like to be a successful bow hunter, LOL. Oh, and he's got a web page that you can watch.

I don't rule out putting a little cant on the bow just because he doesn't (maybe he does sometimes?) but he's onto something because he does well. I try to look for concepts that are key to his overall success. The other day I started a thread with "alignment" in mind. I think that it's a basic element that most good archers are going to have in common regardless of how they draw or aim.

All that aside, how much fun you have or how it "feels" to you doesn't necessarily indicate that you're likely to actually hit the target.

If there's any "elitism", where are we seeing it? I think it's from the extremes. Personally, I'd like to be able to hit whatever I'm shooting at whether it's paper or fur. I know that the complications and pressures may be different between hunting and target competition but it all starts with being able to hit the target period with no pressure at all. Right?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

kegan said:


> Thanks, Itbeso!
> 
> Sanford, I didn't mean subjective so far as success in the woods, as that carries all of the points you offered (skill and woodsmanship) as well as local game populations, available plots to hunt, and time available to be afield. The more subjective measures being "it feels better" or "I just seem to shoot better" without any sort of quantifiable reference. Without real feedback we get lured into "new toy/comfy chair" problems. Trying something new briefly and basing your opinion on how that experience felt is of little value because that's entirely subjective. The three under vs. split finger debate is a perfect example of people not using what's necessarily more accurate for them in a quanitifiable manner, but rather what "feels" better when they try both in their backyard one afternoon.


Gotcha!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Ray, I haven't seen anyone comment or criticize your tecnique. Your skill speaks for itself. I understand the distaste for people with a "my way or the highway" mentality but it seems you are actively searching out elitism just to fight it, and looking for it in the wrong place.


I'm at a loss here. Am I writing in such a way that people feel the need to make assumptions about me rather than first ask questions.

I never said anyone has made negative comments about my technique but there are those that have and will constantly criticize Asbell's technique regardless of the archer learning it or using it based on their GOALS.



kegan said:


> The same beginners you're trying to avoid being mislead have a difficult time sorting through different approaches when objective comparisons (scores) are far less available (at least online) as opposed to subjective comparisons (feel). Vague references to group size and accuracy are useless without some sort of measure. The issue I see is that there are certain individuals who seem dogged about their belief that suddenly there is a fundamental difference in how you should shoot a bow when it comes to the application of hunting that can not manifest itself on a target range of any kind. These individuals seem to have an opinion that shooting at a target where you tally a final score is counter productive to hunting, and such styles are only accurate on targets and do not carry well into the woods. This is the source of a lot of arguements about the merit of different tecniques, and I believe on of the biggest issue behind the REAL elitism that we see from traditional archers these days.
> 
> As MGF points out accuracy _isn't_ so subjective. If you're interested in becoming a better shot, especially in given fields, simply compare the top shooters in those field to see the similarities between them, and the scores those similarities produce. If a person, on the other hand, ignores the objective comparisons but relies merely on subjective comparisons, you see why threads quickly dissolve into utter drivel and why a "holier than thou" attitude towards others remains a constant problem.


I'm curious...do you believe I disagree with anything in your last quote?

Ray :shade:


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

I used to think guys switched to trad just for an excuse , seriously, no wait a minute I was serious LOL 
It's human nature I guess , I went full circle and ended right back where I started.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MotherLode said:


> *I used to think guys switched to trad just for an excuse *, seriously, no wait a minute I was serious LOL
> It's human nature I guess , I went full circle and ended right back where I started.


Your thinking was not wrong on some of the folks who switched from wheels to sticks. Know a bunch who have switched myself. Some are pretty fair shooters, but some, well……….


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

There is elitism in any sport and basically any other endeavor for that matter. I also so know quite a few who sit around and wait for life to offend them while they actively go on the offensive for no apparent reason. Suffice it to say, neither conventional nor modern archery have those markets cornered, and there are near enough an equal percentage of those culpable in both camps, so it's a wash in my mind's eye. In other words, archery's no different, no better, no worse than anything else.........I tend not to consume myself with these sorts of things.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Ray, what goals would an archer have that would direct them towards Mr. Asbell's techniques?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ray, in several of your posts you said you disliked the dismissal of a specific style, and in post #42 when you said that you didn't care what others thought of your tecnique, I assumed you meant your previous arguments were because of comments made to you personally. My misunderstanding.

As for the Asbell example, I believe that his books have created the "two types" mentality seen in certain trad groups, specifically the ones I alluded to that frequent another online forum. Post #53 ellaborated on the inaccuracy of that belief system.

As I see it the Asbell style itself is nothing more than an approach to shooting. Some have had success with it, others have not- here I'm refering to quantifiable scores on 3D and paper. The "anti-Asbell" arguments I believe stem more so from the tight association with the "two types" belief of those who are proponents of the style. This comes directly from comments made about it being "better" for hunting, while more target oriented methods do not fair as well on game. Many new shooters interested primarily in hunting see this style being toted as "better" and since the "two types" belief system is so intertwined with it, they ignore any quantifiable measurements and rely soley on more subjective accounts.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm reminded of my time hunting with rifles and handguns. I deliberately aimed using iron sights or a scope as I squeezed the trigger. I did NOT swing draw and "snap shoot"...while I understand that maybe some people could. Even shooting birds on the wing and running rabbits with a shotgun, I look down the barrel and use the bead. Not to say that's the only way it can be done but it all worked well enough on fur and feather.

Why should things be so different with a bow? Plenty of hunters kill plenty of game using a compound with sights or a scope. But there's no time to deliberately draw and aim a recurve or longbow?

I guess I'm not with the target archers who seem to suggest that you can't be any good if you aren't showing up at the big shoots (there are lots of possible reasons for that) and I'm not with the guys who suggest that hunting success is dependent on using some other shooting style.

I just call BS on a whole bunch of it. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> Ray, in several of your posts you said you disliked the dismissal of a specific style, and in post #42 when you said that you didn't care what others thought of your tecnique, I assumed you meant your previous arguments were because of comments made to you personally. My misunderstanding.
> 
> As for the Asbell example, I believe that his books have created the "two types" mentality seen in certain trad groups, specifically the ones I alluded to that frequent another online forum. Post #53 ellaborated on the inaccuracy of that belief system.
> 
> As I see it the Asbell style itself is nothing more than an approach to shooting. Some have had success with it, others have not- here I'm refering to quantifiable scores on 3D and paper. The "anti-Asbell" arguments I believe stem more so from the tight association with the "two types" belief of those who are proponents of the style. This comes directly from comments made about it being "better" for hunting, while more target oriented methods do not fair as well on game. Many new shooters interested primarily in hunting see this style being toted as "better" and since the "two types" belief system is so intertwined with it, they ignore any quantifiable measurements and rely soley on more subjective accounts.


Maybe I'm wrong but I think the first thing an archer should do is learn to hit a game size (or smaller) target as reliably as they can. The old "capability" thing. I realize as well as anybody that the pressures associated with competition are a little different than those associated with hunting but, if you can't hit the target at all, it's all moot. Also, one shot out of a hundred that amazingly hits a ridiculously small target is not magic. It's luck.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

voodoofire1 said:


> I've seen it many times over the years in archery, some groups seem more prone to it than others, but the ones I really like have to do with shooting heavy bows....sure get tired of hearing how unnecessary it is, or how my shoulders are going to explode in a very short time,lol.....


I guess it's all a matter of perspective Steve. I see just as much, if not more of the *"you owe it to the animal"* to shoot a minimum of...

or, *"any grown man should be able"* to work up to....

or why are you shooting that *"girly weight"* bow...

or...or...or...

As to the original question, I don't think I have ever heard a compound shooter disparage or talk bad about a stick bow shooter, at least not in my presence. As others have said, usually they have nothing but praise, admiration, and intrigue for what we do. 

On the other hand, the vitriol and wisecracks coming from our side is kind of embarrassing sometimes.

KPC


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Ray, what goals would an archer have that would direct them towards Mr. Asbell's techniques?


An archer that wanted to primarily bowhunt from the ground while aiming Instinctively who also wanted to hunt rabbits, birds and any other animal that often requires shooting them as they're moving.



kegan said:


> Ray, in several of your posts you said you disliked the dismissal of a specific style, and in post #42 when you said that you didn't care what others thought of your tecnique, I assumed you meant your previous arguments were because of comments made to you personally. My misunderstanding.


No problem, Kegan. I know it's human nature to read into things and I understand I may need to work on expressing myself in more detail so people don't have to make assumptions. I just get a little frustrated at times because I feel I am trying my best to be clear :wink:



kegan said:


> As for the Asbell example, I believe that his books have created the "two types" mentality seen in certain trad groups, specifically the ones I alluded to that frequent another online forum. Post #53 ellaborated on the inaccuracy of that belief system.


I agree. There are archers, who get pulled into that style because they are told it's really the only traditional way to shoot a bow which I COMPLETELY disagree with and think that is an 'elitist' attitude. There are MANY ways to shoot a bow in a traditional manner.



kegan said:


> As I see it the Asbell style itself is nothing more than an approach to shooting. Some have had success with it, others have not-


:thumbs_up which again fits my reasoning with using the G.A.P. profile to help determine what an archer should be trying and/or using.



kegan said:


> here I'm refering to quantifiable scores on 3D and paper. The "anti-Asbell" arguments I believe stem more so from the tight association with the "two types" belief of those who are proponents of the style. This comes directly from comments made about it being "better" for hunting, while more target oriented methods do not fair as well on game. Many new shooters interested primarily in hunting see this style being toted as "better" and since the "two types" belief system is so intertwined with it, they ignore any quantifiable measurements and rely soley on more subjective accounts.


Target methods certainly can and do cross over well into many hunting circumstances...but not all...which is why there are techniques such as Asbell's that may be better suited for an archer with a specific set of GOALS and ABILITIES.

As it should be apparent to most of us...PERSONALITY also plays a roll to what kind of techniques appeal to us.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The goal is putting arrows into the right spot. There are ways of shooting which makes this easier. That fact really can't be debated and it would be foolish to direct a newbie away from them if getting their arrows into a 12" circle at 15yds is proving a difficulty, let alone someone completely new to shooting the bow.

I am completely comfortable with labeling techniques as good or bad, and it's not elitism.
Elitism is choosing a technique which is the hardest to use and then looking down on others for shooting better using an easier one.

-Grant


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

grantmac said:


> The goal is putting arrows into the right spot. There are ways of shooting which makes this easier. That fact really can't be debated and it would be foolish to direct a newbie away from them if getting their arrows into a 12" circle at 15yds is proving a difficulty, let alone someone completely new to shooting the bow.
> 
> I am completely comfortable with labeling techniques as good or bad, and it's not elitism.
> Elitism is choosing a technique which is the hardest to use and then looking down on others for shooting better using an easier one.
> ...


I had a reply half way typed out, but decided that yours was just fine.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Big Country said:


> Ray, what goals would an archer have that would direct them towards Mr. Asbell's techniques?


That form follows function or need. Both Asbell and Bear in their writings impart the reality that you must take advantage of the circumstances before you if you are to be successful in your quests or hunts. From each, I've learned how to glass effectively in the brush (Bear), through brush, or into areas of camouflage... (like for axis deer in the kiawe") or the idea that you can take an effective shot without being restricted to standing or kneeling (Asbell)... my first deer was from a sitting position... as an example... :grin:

You can read and or, you can learn... and learning means for most, I think, application... :grin:


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## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

Thinking and saying there is only one way to shoot a bow and arrow is elitist in nature in and of itself. 

Archery can be applied in many forms. 

Does only shooting a group of arrows in a target impress you? 

Are people that do that more elitist than a traditional bowhunter with no interest in shooting target or competition? 

What about making a shot in a strange position? With the bow sideways, laying on your back? 

There are many applications of the sport. There are techniques and equipment that do not work well and those that do work well for a given application. For instance, if you want to shoot a quarter out of the air, a new Bowtech compound with a back tension release, not the best choice in style or equipment for that application. If you want to shoot a tight group of arrows at 40 yards, may be just the ticket. And just as some archers have no interest in ever shooting a moving target of any sort, for any reason, there are those that have no interest in shooting arrow after arrow in a group and competition.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> The goal is putting arrows into the right spot.


And...the spot may be a 2" diameter X ring or the lung, liver and heart area of a deer.



grantmac said:


> There are ways of shooting which makes this easier.


Absolutely! And there are ways that increase an archer's ability to make shots under specific circumstances.



grantmac said:


> That fact really can't be debated and it would be foolish to direct a newbie away from them if getting their arrows into a 12" circle at 15yds is proving a difficulty, let alone someone completely new to shooting the bow.


Absolutely! But if someone is struggling with achieving their GOALS...it may be based on a number of things from...form choices, to learning a new aiming technique and/or how or how much they practice. 



grantmac said:


> I am completely comfortable with labeling techniques as good or bad, and it's not elitism.


Placing terms such as good or bad on specific techniques really needs further clarification such as...the Asbell style of shooting may be good for some bowhunters but be bad for most target archers.



grantmac said:


> Elitism is choosing a technique which is the hardest to use and then looking down on others for shooting better using an easier one.


Elitism can ALSO be based on choosing a technique based on your personal GOALS and than claiming EVERYONE would benefit from it or choosing an easier technique and than looking down on someone who has chosen a harder technique.

Some of us like myself...picked up the bow and arrow for the added challenge...along with that comes different techniques that can also be more challenging than others.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> That form follows function or need. Both Asbell and Bear in their writings impart the reality that you must take advantage of the circumstances before you if you are to be successful in your quests or hunts. From each, I've learned how to glass effectively in the brush (Bear), through brush, or into areas of camouflage... (like for axis deer in the kiawe") or the idea that you can take an effective shot without being restricted to standing or kneeling (Asbell)... my first deer was from a sitting position... as an example... :grin:
> 
> You can read and or, you can learn... and learning means for most, I think, application... :grin:





dragonheart II said:


> Thinking and saying there is only one way to shoot a bow and arrow is elitist in nature in and of itself.
> 
> Archery can be applied in many forms.
> 
> ...


Ding...Ding...Ding...We have 2 more winners!!! :thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Sharp Stick (Dec 11, 2013)

You know, anything that grows the sport is OK with me. If you want training wheels on your bow, then so be it. As long as we are all slinging arrows, and building interest in archery, and hopefully opening new facilities, I think it's great.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

dragonheart II said:


> Thinking and saying there is only one way to shoot a bow and arrow is elitist in nature in and of itself. Agreed.
> 
> Archery can be applied in many forms. Absolutely.
> 
> ...


 I agree wholeheartedly that there is a tool for every job. I also believe that being able to use the tool correctly is kind of important, even more-so when hunting. I have been seriously playing this game for less than 12 months with singlestring bows. In that short time I have been fortunate enough to attend a few "rendezvous`s, and a bunch of 3-D style shoots, both for fun and competition. In that time I have got to shoot with a lot of self described "instinctive" shooters. While almost all of those folks were a pleasure to meet, I would not allow 95% of them to hunt on my land without massive improvement in shooting ability. When it is a 50/50 proposition of just hitting a life sized deer target @ 20 yards, not talking about a 10 ring hit here, just catching foam, the archer should re-evaluate their current aiming system.

I have been fortunate enough to run into a couple of instinctive shooters who were really good, and they sure were a pleasure to watch.


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## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

Sharp Stick said:


> You know, anything that grows the sport is OK with me. If you want training wheels on your bow, then so be it. As long as we are all slinging arrows, and building interest in archery, and hopefully opening new facilities, I think it's great.


I can get very close to the latitude to this attitude.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

rattus58 said:


> That form follows function or need. Both Asbell and Bear in their writings impart the reality that you must take advantage of the circumstances before you if you are to be successful in your quests or hunts. From each, I've learned how to glass effectively in the brush (Bear), through brush, or into areas of camouflage... (like for axis deer in the kiawe") or the idea that you can take an effective shot without being restricted to standing or kneeling (Asbell)... my first deer was from a sitting position... as an example... :grin:
> 
> You can read and or, you can learn... and learning means for most, I think, application... :grin:


There is a big difference between taking advantage of circumstances and forcing shots that just are not there. There is also the need to be realistic in ones own ability. 

Shooting from odd positions seemed to be much easier for me AFTER I learned correct form and shot execution.

As for learning to glass into and through brush……not sure what to say here? I bought my first bow at a tender age because of Fred Bear, but I learned how to glass in different situations from trail and error……lots of it.

The single most important lesson I have learned since I killed my first buck with a bow 40 years ago is that I do not HAVE TO shoot when I see an animal I would like to place a tag on. When I do shoot, I know that I am taking a shot with absolute confidence.


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## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

Big Country. I hear ya. I have also seen archers that are not good shots at 3-D shoots in the past. I would caution the label of "instinctive" pointing poor shooting only to an aiming method. You sure do hear that thou, almost as an excuse at times for poor shooting. Target panic, lack of practice, poor basic form, and years of bad habits can get ingrained. It is a really awesome experience to shoot with those archers that can put them in there, arrow after arrow! Some guys really need to practice more form-work and basic ingraining of technique and their aiming method.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

dragonheart II said:


> Big Country. I hear ya. I have also seen archers that are not good shots at 3-D shoots in the past. I would caution the label of "instinctive" pointing poor shooting only to an aiming method. You sure do hear that thou, almost as an excuse at times for poor shooting. Target panic, lack of practice, poor basic form, and years of bad habits can get ingrained. It is a really awesome experience to shoot with those archers that can put them in there, arrow after arrow! Some guys really need to practice more form-work and basic ingraining of technique and their aiming method.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

The single most important lesson I have learned since I killed my first buck with a bow 40 years ago is that I do not HAVE TO shoot when I see an animal I would like to place a tag on. When I do shoot, I know that I am taking a shot with absolute confidence.[/QUOTE]

YES! The most important element in my experience bowhunting also. Confidence in the shot.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Big Country said:


> Shooting from odd positions seemed to be much easier for me AFTER I learned correct form and shot execution.


Hammer right on the nail with that one.


As for Hill: I wouldn't look to him for up to date advice on either equipment or ethics. He was a great archer with an even better editing crew, not some sort of superhuman god.

-Grant


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## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

Hill was not superhuman. Byron Ferguson is. See here is the video to prove it. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xmWfxPvtI0

Shoot good form guys and play nice. Good night.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

What's correct form? What's good form? What's perfect form?

Let me give you some hints.

It's not FITA form. It's not Asbell form.

It's whatever form that helps an archer achieve THEIR specific GOALS based on their ABILITIES.

CONSISTENCY is the key...NO MATTER WHAT IT ENDS UP LOOKING LIKE.

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What's correct form? What's good form? What's perfect form?
> 
> Let me give you some hints.
> 
> ...


"Based on their abilities". If they don't learn proper form how are they expected to know the limit of their abilities?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Bigjono said:


> "Based on their abilities". If they don't learn proper form how are they expected to know the limit of their abilities?












You got it all wrong Jon it doesn't matter what you do so long as it is consistent.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> "Based on their abilities". If they don't learn proper form how are they expected to know the limit of their abilities?


First...an archer needs to determine what their GOALS are.

Than they research the techniques that best suit those GOALS.

Than they begin working on those techniques and determine if they have the ABILITIES to make them work 

If they can't make them work than they need to change something or some things until they can make it work 

Pretty simple concept.

It's called a customized personal approach as opposed to believing there is only one way for everyone.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> You got it all wrong Jon it doesn't matter what you do so long as it is consistent.


Does she achieve her GOALS?

Is she having fun?

If she is...more power to her! :wink:

If she's not...she should probably change something :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> First...an archer needs to determine what their GOALS are.
> 
> Than they research the techniques that best suit those GOALS.
> 
> ...


Where is the P gotta have the P???


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Where is the P gotta have the P???


Ahhhh...there's enough PERSONALITY in this thread to fill all the GAPS :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Big Country said:


> There is a big difference between taking advantage of circumstances and forcing shots that just are not there. There is also the need to be realistic in ones own ability.
> 
> *Shooting from odd positions seemed to be much easier for me AFTER I learned correct form and shot execution.*
> 
> ...


Couple of real gems there BC...:thumbs_up


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

Having shot trad, but more recently a compound (although for several years I shot it instinctively), I'm in agreement with everything the OP says here.
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

You have to shoot traditional AND play golf to be considered elite...just saying. :wink:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

We're *all* elitist, Archery is the sport of Kings


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Maybe true over there, but we threw the king out long ago, archery is enjoyed by just good salt of the earth people here. Heck the only kings over here are king George Straight, and king Richard Petty and they aren't archers.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Big Country said:


> Shooting from odd positions seemed to be much easier for me AFTER I learned correct form and shot execution.


Yep! In our hunter league, we have shot at times with extreme odd positions, and proper form is key in keeping one consistently accurate when form is compromised.

If a person's goal is to be a hunter but wants to also be the most accurate possible to their ability, the path is pretty simple - classical, consistent, archery form as we know as line-target form.

If a person's goal is the be a hunter, but accuracy is negotiable, pretty much anything will suffice. Compound folks seem to do fine with the second goal. Recurve shooters seem to be a total ends of spectrum on accuracy consistency when they split these goals on form - it's seems to go all or nothing.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> Yep! In out hunter league, we have shot at times with extreme odd positions, and proper form is key in keeping one consistently accurate when form is compromised.
> 
> If a person's goal is to be a hunter but wants to also be the most accurate possible to their ability, the path is pretty simple - classical, consistent, archery form as we know as line-target form.
> 
> If a person's goal is the be a hunter, but accuracy is negotiable, pretty much anything will suffice. Compound folks seem to do fine with the second goal. Recurve shooters seem to be a total ends of spectrum on accuracy consistency when they split these goals on form - it's seems to go all or nothing.


Hi Sanford.... no one disagrees with this, and in fact most hunting shots can be made with this style employed... treestand maybe modified by bending at the waist, longbows maybe more. I shoot a longbow almost exclusively for hunting, as do many archers here, and classical style sometimes is just not going to cut it. Learning requires practice. Shooting from weird positions does too. Learning what to do with anchor, *in my opinion* solves many of these issues and the learning can progress from there. This of course goes with the individual. Some are bold and some are not. We should never dissuade experimentation or learning. An X ring is an inch. A kill zone is a pie plate. Somewhere in between is the goal for hunting when making ethical humane shots don't you think? If we agree on that, can we accomplish that from a 45 degree angle and a cant of the bow... :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Accuracy will ALWAYS be negotiable based on the archer's G.A.P. profle.

BIG difference between the needs of a target archer needing to hit the X ring and a bowhunter needing to just hit the kill zone.

If you take some of the 'elitist's' opinions to their 'logical' conclusion than they all should be using compound bows with sights and every possible gadget that improves accuracy.

The problem is that many don't realize that they follow their own G.A.P. profile but think that they're sooo wise and smart...everyone should follow it.

Ray :shade:


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

Big Country said:


> The single most important lesson I have learned since I killed my first buck with a bow 40 years ago is that I do not HAVE TO shoot when I see an animal I would like to place a tag on. When I do shoot, I know that I am taking a shot with absolute confidence.


This does not compute for me.
If I see an animal I would like to place a tag on, the only way to do that *is to shoot it.* :tongue:
Or are you saying, you don't have to shoot every animal that walks by? As in... sometimes its just cool to watch god's creation? 
If thats what you mean,, right on.. I get that.


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

irishhacker said:


> this does not compute for me.
> If i see an animal i would like to place a tag on, the only way to do that *is to shoot it.* :tongue:
> Or are you saying, you don't have to shoot every animal that walks by? As in... Sometimes its just cool to watch god's creation?
> If thats what you mean,, right on.. I get that.


i think he meant if the shot doesnt feel comfortable, he won't shoot, WANTS TO BE SURE HE CAN MAKE THE SHOT


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

accidently hit caps lock


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Accuracy will ALWAYS be negotiable based on the archer's G.A.P. profle.
> 
> BIG difference between the needs of a target archer needing to hit the X ring and a bowhunter needing to just hit the kill zone.
> 
> ...


Beat that Drum - you will write a book yet.

"The Gap profile - Archery Defined" 

by Ray Cook


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Hi Sanford.... no one disagrees with this, and in fact most hunting shots can be made with this style employed... treestand maybe modified by bending at the waist, longbows maybe more. I shoot a longbow almost exclusively for hunting, as do many archers here, and classical style sometimes is just not going to cut it. Learning requires practice. Shooting from weird positions does too. Learning what to do with anchor, *in my opinion* solves many of these issues and the learning can progress from there. This of course goes with the individual. Some are bold and some are not. We should never dissuade experimentation or learning. An X ring is an inch. A kill zone is a pie plate. Somewhere in between is the goal for hunting when making ethical humane shots don't you think? If we agree on that, can we accomplish that from a 45 degree angle and a cant of the bow... :laugh:


Hey, Rattus! The difference I see is that "form" is transcending. There's specific issues with alignment and release that are universally beneficial, even if they are severely compromised and don't look "textbook". Fact is, looking textbook is not the goal of any discipline, as the textbook(s) is the starting point. Some folks confuse this and want to make "form" out of "technique". You cannot reinvent a new "form" and technique is not universal enough to fit goals. It's individually developed from a base education. 

I view some of Brady Ellison in Asbel and some of Asbel in Brady. They borrow and use to accomplish their technique, but, I wouldn't bet my paycheck on Asbel on the target line. I would bet my paycheck on Brady if he were hunting.

So, even if I decided to take up shooting aspirin behind my back, I would still be honing on any aspect I could carry forward, whether it's just my gap and cleaner release learned standing on a line upright and forward.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

7


Matt_Potter said:


> Beat that Drum - you will write a book yet.
> 
> "The Gap profile - Archery Defined"
> 
> by Ray Cook


LOL...if I'm beating a drum...so are you and a few others.

The book shall be titled "My Elitist Way or the Highway"

Colaborated by some of the 'elite' Target Archers Anonymous Club...eTACC drivers for short :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> Hey, Rattus! The difference I see is that "form" is transcending. There's specific issues with alignment and release that are universally beneficial, even if they are severely compromised and don't look "textbook". Fact is, looking textbook is not the goal of any discipline, as the textbook(s) is the starting point. Some folks confuse this and want to make "form" out of "technique". You cannot reinvent a new "form". Technique is not universal enough to fit goals. It's individually developed from a base education.
> 
> I view some of Brady Ellison in Asbel and some of Asbel in Brady. They borrow and use to accomplish their technique, but, I wouldn't bet my paycheck on Asbel on the target line. I would bet my paycheck on Brady if he were hunting.
> 
> So, even if I decided to take up shooting aspirin behind my back, I would still be honing on any aspect I could carry forward, whether it's just my gap and cleaner release learned standing on a line upright and forward.


:grin: Ok... I got it... Thanks... you how things are here in the burrow... not enough light probably... :laugh: 

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Matt_Potter said:


> Beat that Drum - you will write a book yet.


It'll be 698 pages of copy and paste followed by a :thumbs_up at the end.


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

BLACK WOLF said:


> 7
> 
> LOL...if I'm beating a drum...so are you and a few others.
> 
> ...


What about:
Slaying Paper
The Better Better Way

I have no opinion in this thread just trying to help with book titles:wink:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

In my experience it's the fur and camo, widow shooting, squat fart and pluck "instinctive " brigade the have been the problem.
Let me first say that 90% of people I've met through archery are good guys. The issues I've seen is the elitist neo Trads sneering and pouring scorn on those who shoot compound, or metal 25" risers or who don't hunt. I've seen it at Compton, Hawkeye and the Trad worlds. It's sad and pathetic.
I shoot a 25" riser in RU, I shoot it target style. I'm not that good but I'm ok. I can also shoot kneeling down, bent over, bow canted, why, because my fundamentals are solid. The squat and pluck boys are one trick ponies, most of whom can't hit the side of a barn, why, because they have no solid form to fall back on.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Arrowzen said:


> What about:
> Slaying Paper
> The Better Better Way
> 
> I have no opinion in this thread just trying to help with book titles:wink:


LOL...or better yet..."How to Cheat in a Tournament and Get Away With It"

or

"How to Make Up for Lack of Skill"

See...if people are gonna dish out the crap...they better be ready to take it back :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

How about "I Got Called A Cheater and I Can't Get Past It"

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

"How to Make Up for Lack of Skill by Changing Your Definition of Accuracy"


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

Aaah,…you people need to lighten up a bit.
scout4


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> "How to Make Up for Lack of Skill by Changing Your Definition of Accuracy"


That certainly applies to some people. Just the other side of the 'elitist' coin. Those people are usually the one's calling us target archers 'cheaters' for beating them.

If you're confident in your skills and yourself...you really don't care what anyone calls you and you learn to accept that every archer has their own G.A.P. profile :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Wow...just...wow...but thanks folks...my backyard is looking better and better.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> 7
> 
> LOL...if I'm beating a drum...so are you and a few others.
> 
> ...


This division is in your mind and continues to be fostered and propagated by you. It would be interesting to do a word search for "Elitist" in this forum - my guess is you own 95 percent of the uses just as you own this mythical division. You keep railing on the subject and driving extremely qualified archers away - there is a reason you have been banned from most of the other sights.

FYI I have shot exactly one paper tourney in my life and I finished last - other than 3D all I do is hunt ALOT and I feel we owe it to the animals to be the best possible shot we can be. Your GAP chest pounding and proselytizing is a cop out - you keep spewing BS and people will keep calling you on it.

Matt


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Since I have been attending shoots I have meet many wonderful people 

Not to many people bother me  

I have seen some very good shooters and have found there is many more rude opinions on the Internet than in person


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt, 

An 'elitist' as in what we are discussing is anyone who believes their G.A.P. profile is superior or better than anyone else's and they look down upon or make fun of anyone else who doesn't share that same profile with them.

It's as simple as that.

I personally do NOT think my style or technique is better than anyone else's. I do NOT look down upon or make fun of ANYONE'S technique...unless they start throwing stones in my face or others first....and I won't hesitate to call them on their crap.

These threads do NOT need to turn personal.

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Matt,
> 
> An 'elitist' as in what we are discussing is anyone who believes their G.A.P. profile is superior or better than anyone else's and they look down upon or make fun of anyone else who doesn't share that same profile with them.
> 
> ...


Ray - every time you get the opportunity to blast your perceive "elite" archers you do. You are single handedly responsible for 90 of the friction between "target" archers and others. If you are going to keep doing it people are going to keep calling you on it. If you look at the responses you have been getting for the last few days you will realize I'm not the only guy who is sick of it.

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

If the shoe fits...it obviously bothers you.

If it doesn't... than it's NOT going to bother you.

The fact is...there are people out there that think their style and technique is better than everyone else's regardless of what another archer's G.A.P. profile is...especially when it has to do with Instinctive Aiming and some other aiming technique.

I'm gonna call a spade a spade especially when they start looking down upon or making fun of other people's technique.

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If the shoe fits...it obviously bothers you.
> 
> If it doesn't... than it's NOT going to bother you.
> 
> ...


The archer's G.A.P. profile is your invention and exists in your mind. Keep pounding that drum.

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> The archer's G.A.P. profile is your invention and exists in your mind. Keep pounding that drum.
> 
> Matt


I did NOT invent the FACT that there are different GOALS for different people.

I did NOT invent the FACT that NOT all people share the same ABILITIES.

I did NOT invent the FACT that people have different PERSONALITIES.

I did NOT invent the term G.A.P. profle. Ben did :wink:

I can NOT invent something that already exists...but I can try to explain it to others.

Some will get it and others won't.

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> It'll be 698 pages of copy and paste followed by a :thumbs_up at the end.


Lol &#55357;&#56397;


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> In my experience it's the fur and camo, widow shooting, squat fart and pluck "instinctive " brigade the have been the problem.
> Let me first say that 90% of people I've met through archery are good guys. The issues I've seen is the elitist neo Trads sneering and pouring scorn on those who shoot compound, or metal 25" risers or who don't hunt. I've seen it at Compton, Hawkeye and the Trad worlds. It's sad and pathetic.
> I shoot a 25" riser in RU, I shoot it target style. I'm not that good but I'm ok. I can also shoot kneeling down, bent over, bow canted, why, because my fundamentals are solid. The squat and pluck boys are one trick ponies, most of whom can't hit the side of a barn, why, because they have no solid form to fall back on.


Yes....but this doesn't mean we can't still be friends.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ray - every time you get the opportunity to blast your perceive "elite" archers you do. You are single handedly responsible for 90 of the friction between "target" archers and others. If you are going to keep doing it people are going to keep calling you on it. If you look at the responses you have been getting for the last few days you will realize I'm not the only guy who is sick of it.
> 
> Matt







Matt. I will be the First to say...."Im sick of it"




Dewayne Martin


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## VA. Bowbender (Mar 31, 2006)

Will this thread NEVER END! OMG, what have I done!




I'm sick of it too


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I will be 2nd, I'm sick of it too.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Yes....but this doesn't mean we can't still be friends.


Jinks, this is a very small minority of people, most archers are cool.
I think some people like to perpetuate a rift to allow them a vehicle for their own sense of importance.
Go to more shoots, it's fun and guys get on. 👍


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Jinks, this is a very small minority of people, most archers are cool.
> I think some people like to perpetuate a rift to allow them a vehicle for their own sense of importance.
> Go to more shoots, it's fun and guys get on. &#55357;&#56397;


Yep...That's what I find...and they are all pretty nice in person....but in some cases I also find...

Trophies + Keyboards = Elitists


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Yep...That's what I find...and they are all pretty nice in person....but in some cases I also find...
> 
> Trophies + Keyboards = Elitists


Well so far I've only come across one top draw archer who was a douche, all the others I know are great guys and about as far from elitist as you can get.
The way I see it, if you have an opinion that doesn't agree with the elitist Mr Wolf, then you too are branded as elitist, and I don't think there's any GAPS in that theory.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Not that I want to add any controversy to this thread but there is a big distinction between being elite and being an "elitist". I pretty well know most of the archers I would call elite and not one of them would I call 'Elitist". A few posters want to join the two into one heading because of jealousy, insecurity, or any myriad of other reasons. It reminds me of liberals trying to beat the rest of the world into their way of thinking. I refuse to be upset, insulted, stressed, threatened, or any other ed (lol) by haters out there that can't handle other peoples success. And while I'm at it, I would think that people getting into archery are smart enough to realize that most of the elite shooters must have a pretty good knowledge of how to shoot. That reason alone would be cause for them to search these archers out for information. If I were to be starting out and had a choice between a world champion and a local chest thumper, it would be a no brainer. What cracks me up and keeps archery under the radar is the lack of respect and support for our top archers. Stock car racing, baseball, football, golf, to name a few all have bigger than life athletes that are looked up to, not ridiculed. A lot of archers need to look in a mirror and analyze why the negative attitudes towards their elite (lol) peers.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Yep...That's what I find...and they are all pretty nice in person....but in some cases I also find...
> 
> Trophies + Keyboards = Elitists


C,mon Bill. If that were the criterion then you would be one of the most egregious "elitists" on here as you have repeatedly posted photos of your trophy collection. There is no way I consider you an elitist just because you share your trove with us.:wink:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

irishhacker said:


> This does not compute for me.
> If I see an animal I would like to place a tag on, the only way to do that *is to shoot it.* :tongue:
> Or are you saying, you don't have to shoot every animal that walks by? As in... sometimes its just cool to watch god's creation?
> If thats what you mean,, right on.. I get that.



Sorry for any confusion…… What I mean by that statement is this……..I don`t care if it is a yearling doe(I gladly shoot them from time to time) or a 190" plus whitetail, ( I shoot them too when possible) I either have a realistic shot opportunity, or I do not. I have had more than a few top end trophy critters within easy range, both here in the US, and on foreign soil, but I let them walk because I did not have a shot that was open enough, or angled correctly for my liking. I do not HAVE TO shoot just because the animal is at close range. I have trailed entirely too many animals wounded by friends or clients simply because they forced a shot that just was not there.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Not that I want to add any controversy to this thread but there is a big distinction between being elite and being an "elitist". I pretty well know most of the archers I would call elite and not one of them would I call 'Elitist". A few posters want to join the two into one heading because of jealousy, insecurity, or any myriad of other reasons. It reminds me of liberals trying to beat the rest of the world into their way of thinking. I refuse to be upset, insulted, stressed, threatened, or any other ed (lol) by haters out there that can't handle other peoples success. And while I'm at it, I would think that people getting into archery are smart enough to realize that most of the elite shooters must have a pretty good knowledge of how to shoot. That reason alone would be cause for them to search these archers out for information. If I were to be starting out and had a choice between a world champion and a local chest thumper, it would be a no brainer. What cracks me up and keeps archery under the radar is the lack of respect and support for our top archers. Stock car racing, baseball, football, golf, to name a few all have bigger than life athletes that are looked up to, not ridiculed. A lot of archers need to look in a mirror and analyze why the negative attitudes towards their elite (lol) peers.


Good post and I hear ya Ben...and since I know your good at keeping a civil discussion?...maybe this is a good opportunity for you to allow me to champion the flip side of that coin as follows...

In your post you mention Race car drivers, baseball players, football, golf...all games where "score is everything" and folks are seeking to push the limits and optimize everything they do to the extreme to what?..."WIN"...and I get that...and used to love doing so myself....but what about those (like myself now) who aren't "In It To Win It"?...where I use my shooting as a form of mental therapy to just relax and decompress...and get feeling much like a fly fishermen who lays out that perfect cast...and if my smoothness is there, and my timing is there and the fly is landing where I want it to?...what's wrong with that?....and should I miss?...I can always cast again or shoot again...it's not life or death up against the rails stuff for me...and?...it brings joy to my heart...inner peace to my soul...a smile on my face and I love it just as much if not more so than your average champion....it means a lot to me to have my couple hours of shooting each evening and I hate it when I get rained out.

Now this is not to say that I don't respect and acknowledge the seriously high effort, hard work, commitment and dedication that it takes to become a target archery champion....I do...but it's when that same respect isn't reciprocated that the waters get disturbed...where with some it seems that they find it absolutely unimaginable that anyone could possibly NOT want to be...or shoot....exactly like they do...where the only major difference is what we seek to derive from it...yet neither of us love it any more or less than the other so the passion factor is still right there on plane with each other....it's just the respect thing that seems to get a bit out of balance....and not so much face too face but on the impersonal forums.

The ones that hurt me the most are the ones who I know think "they are only trying to help" but doing so in a "blinded by their own success" sort of way and never taking into consideration that there's so much more to archery depending on individual goals and what we seek to derive from it.

I'm proud of the fact that I can snap one off in the blink of an eye and put it in a pie plate at 20yds all evening long...and I really don't enjoy shooting much further than that on a regular basis....as eventually it stresses me out...yet some would make fun of that and attempt to humiliate me for it?...that's where I draw the line and write that person off.

anyways....that's the way I see it...and I don't mean to perpetuate the hate here....but more just to explain myself (and my personal goals which btw are being met) in hopes that some might gain a better insight and understanding in hopes that we all get along better in the future.

Thanks for reading and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Well, now that I have had time to read through this thread since my last visit…….I just gotta say that I LOVE these trad forums!:tongue: 

Besides getting a ton of excellent info that has really saved me a lot of time and funds in my quest to get decent shooting single strings, I have also learned a boatload of cool terminology that I never knew existed!!!:darkbeer:

G.A.P.
Gapstinctive
Instinctigap

The best may be this variable accuracy thing though. I knew that there were a few very different shooting styles, and I have learned of even more since my schooling has begun, but I never did know that acceptable accuracy ranged from a poker chip to a Peterbilt steer tire depending on ones goals and objectives?:mg:


Ray, I bet you are a good guy, and given my history meeting new people, I bet we would get along well in person. Also given my past history, I bet that if we ever meet at some archery event, while we are getting along in grand fashion I will be picking on you about this G.A.P./goals and objectives silliness that seems to overwhelm your every waking moment.:wink: You will easily find things to pick on me about as well, and we will be laughing all the while.:biggrin1:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Jinks, you are one of the members here I would really enjoy spending a day with shooting bows and spinning yarns. :thumbs_up

That said, I think you may be taking some of this stuff the wrong way, or maybe too seriously? I don`t think anybody here is even hinting that serious competition is a necessity in order for one to be relevant, or to be taken seriously.

IMO, the MAIN thing that causes these little dustups here is this varying goals silliness. Everybody here should know that for ultimate archery accuracy, a wheelbow with all the bells and whistles is the ONLY way to fly. That said, while many of us use archery setups that will result in varying levels of accuracy, we ALL try fairly hard to hit the EXACT spot we are aiming at, regardless of the aiming method we choose to go with. You cannot tell me Bill that you aim at a basketball sized target in your back yard, and you cannot tell me that you would be satisfied with groups that size either. We all understand that for YOU, pushing yourself to be the best you can possibly be is in your past, and that is cool. You still try to hit what you are aiming at though, and your expectations for accuracy in your own back yard are still set high for the type of bow you happen to be shooting on that particular day. Tell me I am wrong…….I dare ya. :wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Some people are calling, muah...an elitist.

Out of those people...I would like someone to please explain how I am an 'elitist' based on sharing the G.A.P. profile?

If what I say is NOT true...can someone please prove that we ALL share the exact same archery GOALS, we ALL have the exact same ABILITIES and we ALL have the exact same PERSONALITIES???

If you can't prove it...than you have to start acknowledging that we are DIFFERENT and how we ALL do NOT need to or want to follow the style or techniques you believe are superior...because in some cases...they won't be.

We all basically pick up the bow with one hand and pull the string with the other so there will always be similarities to techniques.

In most cases...an archer has to choose between techniques until they find what fits their G.A.P. profile.

So if people are sick of hearing about reality...it makes sense why they have such a hard time with what I'm sharing and lash out.

Elitism exists...and it exists on both sides of the coin...and if you're the type of person who thinks everyone should be using the same techniques you do and have the same GOALS you do...you may be an 'elitist'. 

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Itbeso, great post, I've said it 1000 times if I would have sought out the best trad archer in my area and asked for advice I could have saved so many years of frustration...if I would have had a World Champion to frequent and shoot with then the sky would have been the limit.


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Besides getting a ton of excellent info that has really saved me a lot of time and funds in my quest to get decent shooting single strings, I have also learned a boatload of cool terminology that I never knew existed!!!:darkbeer:
> 
> G.A.P.
> Gapstinctive
> Instinctigap


You can thank Ben for G.A.P. He made that term up :wink:

As for the others...those terms were thrown around years ago on other forums before I became aware of them. They basically describe a form of Gap Aiming where the archer no longer knows their exact gap measurements but can recognize when the sight picture looks right to them.



Big Country said:


> The best may be this variable accuracy thing though. I knew that there were a few very different shooting styles, and I have learned of even more since my schooling has begun, but I never did know that acceptable accuracy ranged from a poker chip to a Peterbilt steer tire depending on ones goals and objectives?:mg:


Most everyone desires to hit exactly what they're aiming at...but there is a difference in the overall acceptable GOAL between a competitive target archer and a bowhunter hunting whitetail sized game. 

A target archer needs to hit a smaller area of the overall target face to succeed.

A bowhunter just needs to place an arrow into the kill zone to succeed.



Big Country said:


> Ray, I bet you are a good guy, and given my history meeting new people, I bet we would get along well in person. Also given my past history, I bet that if we ever meet at some archery event, while we are getting along in grand fashion I will be picking on you about this G.A.P./goals and objectives silliness that seems to overwhelm your every waking moment.:wink: You will easily find things to pick on me about as well, and we will be laughing all the while.:biggrin1:


EXACTLY!

It blows me away the animosity some people feel when someone disagrees with them on certain subjects. There's no need for people to get all butt hurt and turn these threads into personal attacks but I'm well aware that it's human nature to do so for many people.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Not that I want to add any controversy to this thread but there is a big distinction between being elite and being an "elitist". I pretty well know most of the archers I would call elite and not one of them would I call 'Elitist". A few posters want to join the two into one heading because of jealousy, insecurity, or any myriad of other reasons. It reminds me of liberals trying to beat the rest of the world into their way of thinking. I refuse to be upset, insulted, stressed, threatened, or any other ed (lol) by haters out there that can't handle other peoples success. And while I'm at it, I would think that people getting into archery are smart enough to realize that most of the elite shooters must have a pretty good knowledge of how to shoot. That reason alone would be cause for them to search these archers out for information. If I were to be starting out and had a choice between a world champion and a local chest thumper, it would be a no brainer. What cracks me up and keeps archery under the radar is the lack of respect and support for our top archers. Stock car racing, baseball, football, golf, to name a few all have bigger than life athletes that are looked up to, not ridiculed. A lot of archers need to look in a mirror and analyze why the negative attitudes towards their elite (lol) peers.


Those other sports are more popular so there's more money in it. Some people are kind of strange about "celebrities" and I never did understand that. I never really followed any professional sport. I fish and hunt when I can and shooting is part of that.

I used to be big into cave diving so, back then, I knew who was doing the "big dives" or running the big exploration projects. It wasn't a spectator sport though and they didn't rely on my "support" or money. Of course we all kept track of those who didn't come back from the dive.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sick of hearing about a reality that exists only in the mind of someone who wants desperately to be considered an expert.


Elitist is telling people that there are harder "true" ways of doing things, but not everyone will be able to due to their Abilities.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Out of this group of archers...who is using the form and techniques that everyone should be copying and why?

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Big Country said:


> Jinks, you are one of the members here I would really enjoy spending a day with shooting bows and spinning yarns. :thumbs_up
> 
> That said, I think you may be taking some of this stuff the wrong way, or maybe too seriously? I don`t think anybody here is even hinting that serious competition is a necessity in order for one to be relevant, or to be taken seriously.
> 
> IMO, the MAIN thing that causes these little dustups here is this varying goals silliness. Everybody here should know that for ultimate archery accuracy, a wheelbow with all the bells and whistles is the ONLY way to fly. That said, while many of us use archery setups that will result in varying levels of accuracy, we ALL try fairly hard to hit the EXACT spot we are aiming at, regardless of the aiming method we choose to go with. You cannot tell me Bill that you aim at a basketball sized target in your back yard, and you cannot tell me that you would be satisfied with groups that size either. We all understand that for YOU, pushing yourself to be the best you can possibly be is in your past, and that is cool. You still try to hit what you are aiming at though, and your expectations for accuracy in your own back yard are still set high for the type of bow you happen to be shooting on that particular day. Tell me I am wrong…….I dare ya. :wink:


Wrong?...no...you're MORE than just wrong....you're like 180degrees off course and headed back the other way!....What are you trying to do?...set my shooting back a year and a half! :laugh:

Look man...if I gave a flip about where my arrows hit?...I'd miss my backyard! :laugh:

That's the war for me...but the way I won it?...instead of fighting nasty old Mr. TP?...I became his friend....invited him in...got him a cup of coffee....got him all relaxed...and once I've got him lulled into a false sense of security an he's looking the other way?...I nock one up, rip it off and Pow!....Bullseye! LOL!

and he's like...

*"HEY!....What Was That!"*

and I'm like...

"I dunno....must've been a bird flying by or something." :dontknow:

and next thing ya know?...I got 5 in a cigarette pack! :laugh:

works for me! :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Sick of hearing about a reality that exists only in the mind of someone who wants desperately to be considered an expert.


If you read through this thread...there are others who share that same reality :wink: I'm far from being alone :wink:



grantmac said:


> Elitist is telling people that there are harder "true" ways of doing things, but not everyone will be able to due to their Abilities.


There are harder ways to do things. In regards to accuracy...shooting Barebow is generally harder than using sights, trad bows are generally harder than using compound bows and bows are harder than using rifles.

If you want to argue that...be my guest LOL :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Since I have been attending shoots I have meet many wonderful people
> 
> Not to many people bother me
> 
> I have seen some very good shooters and have found there is many more rude opinions on the Internet than in person



Good chance they saw your knife review videos!  j/k


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Stub said:


> Good chance they saw your knife review videos!  j/k


Funny


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

JINKSTER said:


> Wrong?...no...you're MORE than just wrong....you're like 180degrees off course and headed back the other way!....What are you trying to do?...set my shooting back a year and a half! :laugh:
> 
> Look man...if I gave a flip about where my arrows hit?...I'd miss my backyard! :laugh:
> 
> ...


That is by far the most interesting shooting perspective I have heard. I'm totally ignoring the rest of this thread, but it has been a crazy train for a while now.

Seriously Jinks that is a cool take on it. Are you ever so zoned...out/in I don't know which one describes it best...that even you are unaware of your shots?

Honestly, I never even heard of or had thought of the term target panic or it's meaning until I started reading the forums. I'm truly not trying to say that makes me special, but even after reading the wiki definition of it I'm like, "What the heck does that mean? How is that even possible?"

I dunno, I guess I approach archery like I have with anything else I do, BMX, motocross, skateboarding(years ago), classical and metal guitar, firearms, I pretty much see whatever I am trying to do as a set of requirements vs. my abilities. I then try my best to make it happen knowing that to make certain more difficult things happen you need to be able to do many other things first.

Again good post Jinkster, and to add one bit of postitive to this thread gone wrong I say thanks to every archer elitist or not:wink: who has and will continue to try to teach others what they have learned. Be it a technique or a life lesson big or small, simple or complex, they are the main reason we put our thoughts out there in the first place.

Good night folks.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Out of this group of archers...who is using the form and techniques that everyone should be copying and why?
> 
> Ray :shade:


My youngest


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There are harder ways to do things. In regards to accuracy...shooting Barebow is generally harder than using sights, trad bows are generally harder than using compound bows and bows are harder than using rifles.
> 
> If you want to argue that...be my guest LOL :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


You seem to stay lost on that in regards to one's ability. Yes, shooting barebow is less accurate than shooting sighted, so that makes it harder to be as accuate. One is not harder than the other, though, as they share different capabilities. 

Shooting barebow as good as a great barebow shooter "is" harder, though.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Out of this group of archers...who is using the form and techniques that everyone should be copying and why?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray, how many people have you ever seen shooting a bow from horseback?

Of course not all archers are going to look the same when at full draw, but one thing is certain……..without a repeatable anchor and a solid shot execution, nobody is hitting where they want to on a regular basis, unless they want to hit thin air.:wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> My youngest


I love the intensity in her eyes. You've done good! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Wrong?...no...you're MORE than just wrong....you're like 180degrees off course and headed back the other way!....What are you trying to do?...set my shooting back a year and a half! :laugh:
> 
> Look man...if I gave a flip about where my arrows hit?...I'd miss my backyard! :laugh:
> 
> ...


But how often can you put 5 arrows in a cigarette pack @ 20 yards Bill? I have never been a smoker, but have seen cigarette packs often enough to understand how big they are. The absolute best barebow shooters cannot hit one 5 for 5 all the time, and unless there are some folks really well hidden who shoot instinctively, the 5 for 5 thing only gets worse with that crowd. Byron Ferguson could not do it even close to all the time, and he is in a totally different league than the instinctive guru many here consider an archery teaching god.

Now, this TP thing you mention pretty often………You are clearly a pretty smart guy Bill, an engineer or something like that. I am mildly surprised that you have not whipped that malady yet. Well, whipping it might be a little much, but keeping it at bay works.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> You seem to stay lost on that in regards to one's ability. Yes, shooting barebow is less accurate than shooting sighted, so that makes it harder to be as accuate. One is not harder than the other, though, as they share *different capabilities*.


Just as Instinctive Aiming shares some general 'different capabilities'. ABILITIES is a part of capABILITIES :wink:

There's a reason why allot of archers switch to Gap or String Walking when they want to become more competitive in target competition.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JParanee said:


> My youngest


The winnah!!!!!!!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Ray, how many people have you ever seen shooting a bow from horseback?


I've only seen a few in person...but there's plenty on YouTube to watch.



Big Country said:


> Of course not all archers are going to look the same when at full draw, but one thing is certain……..without a repeatable anchor and a solid shot execution, nobody is hitting where they want to on a regular basis, unless they want to hit thin air.:wink:


Again...you're limiting your opinion based on what your ABILITIES are currently and what you've personally witnessed.

I've seen plenty of archers with floating anchors hit their targets on a regular basis...but you may not think much of it...if it doesn't meet your GOALS based on size of target and distance.

I can pop balloons on a regular basis shooting with my foot and with a floating anchor...so I know it can be done.

Ray :shade:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I love the intensity in her eyes. You've done good! :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


Thanks Ray


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

itbeso said:


> The winnah!!!!!!!


Ben it takes a world class archer to know a world class archer  

Thanks buddy


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

It seems some people have taken up issue with my opinion on ABILITIES.

The fact is...we all can't be Michael Jordans as hard as we may want to be or believe we can be.

Most of us with dedication, passion, discipline and wisdom will find a way to become the best we can be...and on some of those days...we can give those Michael Jordans a run for their money.

The same exists in archery. Some archers can perform amazing trick shots with their technique...while others can achieve exceptional scores with their technique.

Weither some of you want to accept it or not...we ALL pursue techniques based on our own G.A.P. profile.

In some cases we're steered in the wrong direction based on the bias of someone claiming you have to shoot this way or that way...and hopefully along the way...we're adventurous and brave enough to try different things until we find what works for us.

Archery is a simple journey that's personal. There is NO one way for everyone.

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Joe, I am NEVER shooting for dollars at your place……….unless the ladies are out shopping. :lol:

Awesome stuff! :thumbs_up


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

JParanee said:


> My youngest


+1 

Is she using a tab or anything?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just as Instinctive Aiming shares some general 'different capabilities'. ABILITIES is a part of capABILITIES :wink:
> 
> There's a reason why allot of archers switch to Gap or String Walking when they want to become more competitive in target competition.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Not the people Ray, the equipment. Sighted recurve is hardest game out there. "A" "lot" of archers competitively switch to more attentive non-sight aiming because a lazy gap of instinctive will just carry you so far.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Ray, have you ever attempted to OBJECTIVELY review your own posts? :wink:

Of course we all have different abilities, if not, there would be a big tie for first place in every conceivable archery endeavor.

Regardless of personal preferences/paths in archery, we ALL try to get better. Show me someone who says they do not want to, and does not try to get better, and I will show you a dishonest person. That does not mean everyone is trying to stand toe to toe with itbeso, Potter, Demmer, Dewayne, J. Westbrock, Jimmy Blackmon, etc., but we all try to get better at our preferred game.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Big Country said:


> Ray, have you ever attempted to OBJECTIVELY review your own posts? :wink:
> 
> Oh course we all have different abilities, if not, there would be a big tie for first place in every conceivable archery endeavor.
> 
> Regardless of personal preferences/paths in archery, we ALL try to get better. Show me someone who says they do not want to, and does not try to get better, and I will show you a dishonest person. That does not mean everyone is trying to stand toe to toe with itbeso, Potter, Demmer, Dewayne, J. Westbrock, Jimmy Blackmon, etc., but we all try to get better at our preferred game.


Yep, my sedan might not be an Indy car, but if it acts like compact, I've got the wrong vehicle for me.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Sighted recurve is hardest game out there.


It may be the most competitive but it is not the hardest to achieve the same level of accuracy with as other equipment choices and techniques generally produce.



Sanford said:


> "A" "lot" of archers competitively switch to more attentive non-sight aiming because a lazy gap of instinctive will just carry you so far.


True...and the reason is because it's harder to achieve their GOALS of a specific level of accuracy with it.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Regardless of personal preferences/paths in archery, we ALL try to get better.


I've NEVER claimed or tried to imply differently.

If anyone believes I have they would be wrong....and made a poor assumption.

Ray :shade:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks Big  

Stub she is just starting to use a tab Scott Teaschner made for her 

But in that pic she is bare fingers 20# bow

Lilly says thanks


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It may be the most competitive but it is not the hardest to achieve the same level of accuracy with as other equipment choices and techniques generally produce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We have recently had the bar raised a good bit in non-sighted methods, but none of us could reach the bar on sighted without access to the resources that made it so high. Yes, it's harder to shoot instinctive and compete with more attentive aiming folks, sure! But, that tells you nothing about how easy or hard either are. See, you make a rookie mistake. You compare apples to oranges and assume oranges are comparatively the same. The equipment doesn't make it easier or harder, the competition pressure does.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Yes, it's harder to shoot instinctive and compete with more attentive aiming folks, sure! But, that tells you nothing about how easy or hard either are. See, you make a rookie mistake. You compare apples to oranges and assume oranges are comparatively the same.


LOL...in one sentence you admit Instinctive Aiming is harder and than you dismiss it in another.

I'm comparing everything.

Like I said before...with each class in competition there can be different challenges based on the number of participants competing...But...that does NOT disqualify what I've been talking about in regards to techniques.

Some techniques are inherently harder to master and achieve the same level of accuracy with in specific circumstances.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...in one sentence you admit Instinctive Aiming is harder and than you dismiss it in another.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Instinctive isn't harder. Look, you either think folks are naive enough to buy some straw argument, or, I'm figuring out something about your level of experience.

Why don't you take your best sighted compound and go compete against some instinctive folks, pretty easy, and you will be the talk of the crowd if they let you compete in that class. Now, take it and go shoot with Rio, and you will be the comedy act.

So, tell us, which is harder??? Compound or instinctive?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Instinctive isn't harder. Look, you either think folks are naive enough to buy some straw argument, or, I'm figuring out something about your level of experience.


LOL...you already admitted to it being harder. As a reminder in your very own words!!! "*Yes, it's harder to shoot instinctive *and compete with more attentive aiming folks, sure! 



Sanford said:


> So, tell us, which is harder??? Compound or instinctive?


To consistently hit an X ring from 20yrds. = Instinctive Aiming

To compete in the same class with other archers using the same equipment = depends on who showed up to compete :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Ray, at least now I know your purpose here. I used to give you a bit of credit.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Ray, at least now I know your purpose here.


Which is?

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

itbeso said:


> The winnah!!!!!!!


Nice form! She must know somebody who has a clue


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ben that was a great post :thumbs_up

Bill most just for fun shooters I've shot with are really nice people but I've met a few that gave me a seriously hard time and accused me of ruining their sport. My personal goal in Archery is not to be the best Archer in the world, only to reach my full potential and be the best Archer I can be, anything achieved beyond that goal is just icing on the cake. 

I work hard at this sport and love every moment that I'm in the woods with a Bow in my hands (and a Hammer course building ), all the troubles of the world melt away.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowzen said:


> That is by far the most interesting shooting perspective I have heard. I'm totally ignoring the rest of this thread, but it has been a crazy train for a while now.
> 
> Seriously Jinks that is a cool take on it. Are you ever so zoned...out/in I don't know which one describes it best...that even you are unaware of your shots?


Oh make no mistake...I'm very aware....ultra aware...and when I hit surreal aware?...that's when it's time to begin my draw...after that?....the challenge is keeping my mind empty and devoid of conscious thought/distraction....the conscious thoughts must not be present...as in "nothing"...like you just smoked the best herb you ever had kind of nothing...starring into space and drooling down your chest kind of nothing...and this is the place I must relegate my conscious mind to and force..."a complete shut down"...in order to allow the subconscious to take full control of my physical reflex/motor-skills...but I am aware of the shot timing...as I must not attempt to execute faster than the sub mind can process the shot and in synch with body movement...and I know all that sounds real whacky but...true story...and that is what gives me my best results.



Arrowzen said:


> Honestly, I never even heard of or had thought of the term target panic or it's meaning until I started reading the forums. I'm truly not trying to say that makes me special, but even after reading the wiki definition of it I'm like, "What the heck does that mean? How is that even possible?"


When I first heard of it (several decades back) I thought folks were pulling my leg and that anyone who could contrive contracting such must be of weak mind.

until I got it....and how's it possible?...easy....it's the archery version of "Mentally Cracking Up".....where the conscious mind has been pushed to it's "Concentration" limits and beyond so may times that it simply breaks...mine is broken...I can tape it back together doing drills and such and it'll work for awhile...but this is why tapping into the strong FOCUS of my subconscious intrigues me so much.....first off?...it's far more powerful...and secondly?...I haven't broken that part of me yet! :laugh:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Wow, this thread really pulled the elitists out of the woodwork. The problem is, they're so vain that they don't even recognize the attitude that makes it so. Aaaaamazing !


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## GrisMunkyNinja (Aug 9, 2012)

Well said. One of my favorite things about archery is everyone has their own style, and not just in shooting. It even extends into how each of us hunt. Sometimes I like watching the way my friends shoot there bows. Lately I've been fascinated in watching my friends stalk up on game. I'm honestly more happy for my friends when they put it all together than when I am able to shoot something. Lately I've been noticing a lot of drama in the archery world. IMHO I believe a lot of it comes from the diehard fanboys. Comon guys... Let's just HUNT! We are losing access to public hunting too quickly to be divided.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Wow, this thread really pulled the elitists out of the woodwork. The problem is, they're so vain that they don't even recognize the attitude that makes it so. Aaaaamazing !


It is amazing for sure…….but I doubt we are looking at it the same way.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Wow, this thread really pulled the elitists out of the woodwork. The problem is, they're so vain that they don't even recognize the attitude that makes it so. Aaaaamazing !


Forrest I've been at both ends of the scale, when I first started I had no club to shoot at for the first 2 years, just 10y in my back yard in London, I went to tourneys and just had Fun, when I joined a club I had more time space to shoot and got to shoot and learn from some Elite shooters, their is nothing wrong with being an Elite or just a fun shooter, and there is elitist attitudes on both sides of the fence.

Is it not elitist in itself to assume because somebody is Elite in their sport that they automatically look down on all that aren't ?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Wow, this thread really pulled the elitists out of the woodwork. The problem is, they're so vain that they don't even recognize the attitude that makes it so. Aaaaamazing !


You need some work on your spelling, Forest. It is elites, not elitists:teeth: I will admit, Carly Simon did write that song about me, and not Warren Beatty as everyone suspected. Who woke you up from your stupor anyway? Go back out in the yard and shoot some pine cones.:wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Is it not elitist in itself to assume because somebody is Elite in their sport that they automatically look down on all that aren't ?


I'm not sure about elitist but maybe jaded or prejudice.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

GrisMunkyNinja said:


> Well said. One of my favorite things about archery is everyone has their own style, and not just in shooting. It even extends into how each of us hunt. I'm honestly more happy for my friends when they put it all together than when I am able to shoot something. Lately I've been noticing a lot of drama in the archery world. IMHO I believe a lot of it comes from the diehard fanboys. Comon guys... Let's just HUNT! We are losing access to public hunting too quickly to be divided.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

GrisMunkyNinja said:


> Well said. One of my favorite things about archery is everyone has their own style, and not just in shooting. It even extends into how each of us hunt. Sometimes I like watching the way my friends shoot there bows. Lately I've been fascinated in watching my friends stalk up on game. I'm honestly more happy for my friends when they put it all together than when I am able to shoot something. Lately I've been noticing a lot of drama in the archery world. IMHO I believe a lot of it comes from the diehard fanboys. Comon guys... Let's just HUNT! We are losing access to public hunting too quickly to be divided.


Gris,Does your archery world extend beyond the internet? I haven't noticed any drama in the real archery world of target shooting and hunting. All the competitions I have attended the past few years have been with very friendly competitors and all the hunts I have been on and all the hunters I have hunted with have been a pleasure to be around. What drama in the real world?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

My experience the closer you shoot at the top level the less elitist attitudes I see. The fact is nobody starts at the top, we all work from the bottom up I think we appreciate the amount of work that's involved to reach above average level and I think the reason why so many top shooters are willing to help/share info. 

I've met many average shooters who then become elite or I prefer the term world class as elite seems too strong a word. One Finnish guy I met at 09 European Fields was 300 points behind me (around 10th place) we became friends and he visited me to train and pick up some tips, he went on with dedicated hard work from a fairly decent shot to a world class Archer, winning 2 Euro and 2 world titles. 2010 worlds he beat me by a good 80 points.

The way I see it, we all have the potential to be world class, some are just happy to have fun and some don't have the resources available but most of those Archers have that potential given the chance so for every enthusiastic archer I see, I also see a potential world champion.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

There's plenty of "drama" in hunting. It's not just on the net but in and around the DNR policy making process. Just a few hot topics around the country are crossbows, baiting, high fence, dogs, Sunday hunting and deer herd management.

None of this is new. The fight over crossbows goes back, at least, to the 80's. It probably started a lot earlier, though I wouldn't have been paying attention then.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

There is a huge difference between *"elite"* and *"elitist."* 

In terms of archers, they are usually easy to differentiate, as one of often the polar opposite of the other.

KPC


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

GEREP said:


> There is a huge difference between *"elite"* and *"elitist."*
> 
> In terms of archers, they are usually easy to differentiate, as one of often the polar opposite of the other.
> 
> KPC


They are not opposites. One can be elite and also be elitist.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

MGF said:


> They are not opposites. One can be elite and also be elitist.


Key words being *"in terms of archers,"* *"usually,"* and *"often."*

KPC


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to hear of these attitudes. Although my halcyon days of competition are behind me, I've lived and enjoyed my archery hobby in a number of places throughout the country. I've also hunted throughout my lifetime.

I can honestly say, that I've never experienced any of the attitudes mentioned throughout this thread. My experience in both competing and hunting has been one of great comraderie and fellowship. It's one of the main reasons I've stayed engaged in this hobby all these years. I've been fortunate in my life to have spend some time with some pretty famous competitors and hunters and I have never found them to be anything less than considerate, courteous, and generous. I don't really play on that level anymore, maybe things have changed, hope not.


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

JINKSTER said:


> Oh make no mistake...I'm very aware....ultra aware...and when I hit surreal aware?...that's when it's time to begin my draw...after that?....the challenge is keeping my mind empty and devoid of conscious thought/distraction....the conscious thoughts must not be present...as in "nothing"...like you just smoked the best herb you ever had kind of nothing...starring into space and drooling down your chest kind of nothing...and this is the place I must relegate my conscious mind to and force..."a complete shut down"...in order to allow the subconscious to take full control of my physical reflex/motor-skills...but I am aware of the shot timing...as I must not attempt to execute faster than the sub mind can process the shot and in synch with body movement...and I know all that sounds real whacky but...true story...and that is what gives me my best results.


It is an interesting topic to me (the mental) game. As archery is mostly a low intensity activity in modern times the thinking that goes into it is a major part in my view. I ask because sometimes I find when I am practicing my instinctive/split/speed shooting I find that I sometimes have surprising results when I am going solely off of what I see and the reflexes I have been trying to work on and almost not even noticing the actual shooting part at times.

Then there is the aiming and distance practice which for me is quite the opposite. I seem to only be accurate (4" groups and some X's at 20y) when I am only focusing on one shot, all of the nuances of preparing it, and where that one shot will go.

I just like how you put your thoughts out there as best you can, they make for a great read sir.




JINKSTER said:


> When I first heard of it (several decades back) I thought folks were pulling my leg and that anyone who could contrive contracting such must be of weak mind.
> 
> until I got it....and how's it possible?...easy....it's the archery version of "Mentally Cracking Up".....where the conscious mind has been pushed to it's "Concentration" limits and beyond so may times that it simply breaks...mine is broken...I can tape it back together doing drills and such and it'll work for awhile...but this is why tapping into the strong FOCUS of my subconscious intrigues me so much.....first off?...it's far more powerful...and secondly?...I haven't broken that part of me yet! :laugh:


Well, let me put it this way. I can understand how pressure can be something like target panic. The definition of it seems kinda weird though. I can acknowledge the existence of competitive pressure though. In watching Olympic archery videos on youtube I saw the London 2012 Olympics with the Italian and the USA teams. The last Italian shooter HAD to pull off a 10 shot to win it, no less. He nailed it, but in watching that I was thinking, "Crap, if I was in that spot just don't tell me the scores!"


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I have read some dribble before ... But sheesh ...

This thread is a good example of why I don't post much on the Internet anymore ...

I wouldn't mind having taken just a tenth of the critters that some of these "elitist" target archers have taken ... Would love to stand on the tourney line with them , share a hunting camp with them and hope I am as generous of my time with others as they are with theirs ...

It would seem the only elitism I see is via passive aggressive keyboard assassination ... Where I come from it's called 'the tall poppy syndrome'


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

benofthehood said:


> I have read some dribble before ... But sheesh ...
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind having taken just a tenth of the critters that some of these "elitist" target archers have taken ... Would love to stand on the tourney line with them , share a hunting camp with them and hope I am as generous of my time with others as they are with theirs ...


My experience is that the person who tends to be successful at one thing is likely to be successful at another. Sure, there are plenty of exceptions but success is, in large part, a result of attitude. Those who succeed tend to make a habit of it.

What's more, it seems to be contagious. One reasonable step toward success is to hang out with those who succeed.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> My experience the closer you shoot at the top level the less elitist attitudes I see. The fact is nobody starts at the top, we all work from the bottom up I think we appreciate the amount of work that's involved to reach above average level and I think the reason why so many top shooters are willing to help/share info.
> 
> I've met many average shooters who then become elite or I prefer the term world class as elite seems too strong a word. One Finnish guy I met at 09 European Fields was 300 points behind me (around 10th place) we became friends and he visited me to train and pick up some tips, he went on with dedicated hard work from a fairly decent shot to a world class Archer, winning 2 Euro and 2 world titles. 2010 worlds he beat me by a good 80 points.
> 
> The way I see it, we all have the potential to be world class, some are just happy to have fun and some don't have the resources available but most of those Archers have that potential given the chance so for every enthusiastic archer I see, I also see a potential world champion.


Well said, Steve, and your observations are my experiences also. After 39 years away from recurve shooting, I came back in 2012 and was met and accepted by a great group of archers. In the 2 years I have been shooting my recurve I have earned the respect of my peers, not only for my shooting ability, but for the fact that I try to help anyone who has questions or problems with their equipment. Out in the real world, those qua;ities are appreciated by just about everyone I come in contact with. There doesn't seem to be the insecurities and jealousies that prevail on these forums. I, for one, am secure in who I am and I could care less about about people on here who have never met me who want to attach an elitist tag on me or any of the other national and world class archers. As a matter of fact, I think I will go on the attack, as they have, and attach a label on them. Whiners and haters. I refuse to change my demeanor or self esteem just to codify some really small segment of the archery community. Get ready for the backlash and I hope the other elites will have the cajones to stand up also. Enough is enough!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I think with most sports if you reached the top of your game you likely developed a pretty thick skin along the way. :wink:

On these Forums I'm just giving an opinion just like the next Man, if somebody doesn't like it that's fine with me, if somebody listens to my opinion and it helps them improve that's even better. 

A lot of GAP issues on these Archery Forums (*G*rumpy *A*sinine *P*ersonalities )


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I think with most sports if you reached the top of your game you likely developed a pretty thick skin along the way. :wink:


It can go either way...some get pretty thin skinned from constantly being ridiculed.



steve morley said:


> A lot of GAP issues on these Archery Forums (*G*rumpy *A*sinine *P*ersonalities )


LOL...that works too :wink:

I just hope those that are new to this sport understand there is some animosity based on 'elitism' that does in fact exist in our sport...where one side says that their technique is the only real traditional way to shoot a trad bow and the other side says their way is the 'best' and most 'proper' way to shoot a bow.

BOTH sides totally ignore other people's G.A.P. profile because they're sooo wrapped in the own little worlds and/or licking their wounds from being ridiculed that they've lost touch with reality.

The absolute best advice we can ever give someone will be based on their G.A.P. profile instead of saying or implying there is only one correct way to do it for everyone.

Ray :shade:


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## xxxJakkxxx (Apr 17, 2014)

I'm new to the sport and haven't really noticed any attitude at the range. I have only seen 3 other people without compounds, though. People with both types of bows are always nice and willing to offer up advice or just BS all day. Everyone seems really nice and down to earth. They're my kind of people. Last time I was at the range, it was referred to as ******* golfing. Lol

It may change, though. This is the first time I've joined an archery forum and if there's anything I've learned from the internet, forums can bring out the worst kind of people. Hopefully everyone here is pretty cool. I'd love to learn a lot here and not be chased away with guys with sticks and attitudes. =D


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Will someone please define what an elite archer is. Is it someone that thinks they are good? Someone that has a few trophies? Someone that has killed a few deer? Do you have to shoot a 270 NFAA? Shoot 8's or better on a 3D round? I need a little guidance.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> Will someone please define what an elite archer is. Is it someone that thinks they are good? Someone that has a few trophies? Someone that has killed a few deer? Do you have to shoot a 270 NFAA? Shoot 8's or better on a 3D round? I need a little guidance.


An elite archer is someone who is at the top of their class...whether it be in the military, sports or some highly regarded position.
...but we're NOT discussing who is elite.

We're basically discussing other archers with an 'elitist' attitude in regards to form and/or aiming techniques. They will often self proclaim themselves and/or their techniques as being better than anyone else's and/or ridicule others that don't shoot their way.

They often give advice with no regards to an individuals GOALS claiming their way is the best way no matter what.

Ray :shade:


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## xxxJakkxxx (Apr 17, 2014)

BLACK WOLF said:


> We're basically discussing other archers with an 'elitist' attitude in regards to form and/or aiming techniques. They will often self proclaim themselves and/or their techniques as being better than anyone else's and/or ridicule others that don't shoot their way.
> 
> They often give advice with no regards to an individuals GOALS claiming their way is the best way no matter what.
> 
> Ray :shade:


 Wait... would telling me that I need to switch to 3 under from Mediterranean draw count? If so, there are actually 2 guys that I met that that have a more elitist attitude... A Compound and Longbow user both told me that I 'need' to switch to 3 under and then had a good laugh.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

xxxJakkxxx said:


> Wait... would telling me that I need to switch to 3 under from Mediterranean draw count? If so, there are actually 2 guys that I met that that have a more elitist attitude... A Compound and Longbow user both told me that I 'need' to switch to 3 under and then had a good laugh.


It would be hard to tell by just that. They could have been joking or serious who knows for sure...but if they were serious and thought that was the only right way to do it... they may be an elitist :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

xxxJakkxxx said:


> I'm new to the sport and haven't really noticed any attitude at the range. I have only seen 3 other people without compounds, though. People with both types of bows are always nice and willing to offer up advice or just BS all day. Everyone seems really nice and down to earth. They're my kind of people. Last time I was at the range, it was referred to as ******* golfing. Lol
> 
> It may change, though. This is the first time I've joined an archery forum and if there's anything I've learned from the internet, forums can bring out the worst kind of people. Hopefully everyone here is pretty cool. I'd love to learn a lot here and not be chased away with guys with sticks and attitudes. =D


I've never had any sort of trouble with anybody at any range and, years ago, I belonged to a large club in the Chicago area.

I see the elitism mostly on the net and mostly from two groups (if we can think of them as groups). One is the guys who think you need to swing draw and snap shoot in order to hunt (I never swing drew and snap shot a rifle and it seemed to work ok) and, the other, is a few guys who keep insisting that we're jealous when we don't know or care who they even are. LOL


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## xxxJakkxxx (Apr 17, 2014)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It would be hard to tell by just that. They could have been joking or serious who knows for sure...but if they were serious and thought that was the only right way to do it... they may be an elitist :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


 I think that they were serious about it being 'the' way but I think it was more in a 'helping the newbie' kind of way. They were friendly and 1 of the 2 had been shooting longbows and recurves for 40+ years.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Well said, Steve, and your observations are my experiences also. After 39 years away from recurve shooting, I came back in 2012 and was met and accepted by a great group of archers. In the 2 years I have been shooting my recurve I have earned the respect of my peers, not only for my shooting ability, but for the fact that I try to help anyone who has questions or problems with their equipment. Out in the real world, those qua;ities are appreciated by just about everyone I come in contact with. There doesn't seem to be the insecurities and jealousies that prevail on these forums. I, for one, am secure in who I am and I could care less about about people on here who have never met me who want to attach an elitist tag on me or any of the other national and world class archers. As a matter of fact, I think I will go on the attack, as they have, and attach a label on them. Whiners and haters. I refuse to change my demeanor or self esteem just to codify some really small segment of the archery community. Get ready for the backlash and I hope the other elites will have the cajones to stand up also. Enough is enough!


I'm pretty scared but for the record, I don't hate you. LOL that's a good one though..."the other elites".


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

How does a new archer know what his/her abilities are? For that matter, how many new archers even know for sure what their goals are?

The VAST majority if archers here in the US only use archery gear in order to hunt, there is no denying that.

Sure, there are many ways to shoot a bow, but some ways offer a serious advantage, especially for a beginner. Once a new archer gets the basics down pretty well, moving to another aiming method becomes much easier than starting out with it……..unless that archer is one of a very small percentage of our population that will ever actually be fair to good by shooting hunched over and severely canting the bow while using no hard aiming method.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

xxxJakkxxx said:


> I think that they were serious about it being 'the' way but I think it was more in a 'helping the newbie' kind of way. They were friendly and 1 of the 2 had been shooting longbows and recurves for 40+ years.


As I said, sometimes those who are good become opinionated about what it takes to be good. You can't give somebody advice without having an opinion concerning what might be a better way to do things.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Big Country said:


> How does a new archer know what his/her abilities are? For that matter, how many new archers even know for sure what their goals are?
> 
> The VAST majority if archers here in the US only use archery gear in order to hunt, there is no denying that.
> 
> Sure, there are many ways to shoot a bow, but some ways offer a serious advantage, especially for a beginner. Once a new archer gets the basics down pretty well, moving to another aiming method becomes much easier than starting out with it……..unless that archer is one of a very small percentage of our population that will ever actually be fair to good by shooting hunched over and severely canting the bow while using no hard aiming method.


I'll guess and say that measuring accuracy and precision is the best way to find out what your abilities are.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

xxxJakkxxx said:


> I think that they were serious about it being 'the' way but I think it was more in a 'helping the newbie' kind of way. They were friendly and 1 of the 2 had been shooting longbows and recurves for 40+ years.


Most people giving advice are trying to be helpful...even if they are a little elitist.

It's the ones that ridicule certain techniques and the archers that use them that some of us are trying to address.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> How does a new archer know what his/her abilities are?


Time will tell just as with any other sport.

Some archers will develop faster than others while others will need to change something to adapt.



Big Country said:


> For that matter, how many new archers even know for sure what their goals are?


IMO...most do. Most will have at least some idea if they want to bowhunt, compete, trick shoot and/or just shoot recreationally.

As time progresses their GOALS may change also.

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF said:


> I'll guess and say that measuring accuracy and precision is the best way to find out what your abilities are.


I understand what you are saying MGF, but when dealing with a beginner I do not think this is a good indicator. Several members here were politely asked to share their journey in archery on another forum. If they were honest, and I am betting they were, they were not that accurate starting out. I know that in my journey, which is still new with singlestring bows has shown the same pattern that several of the top guys spoke of, except that I am nowhere near their level……..yet.:wink:

When I started with the stickbows, my performance gauge was scores at local 3-D`s. I started out scoring in the 180 range for 30 targets, then quickly moved up to 200. After a bunch of practice in a short amount of time I was able to hit the 240 range now and then, but would fall back to 200-210 regularly. Then I got serious, asked these Elitist shooters a gazillion questions on just about every segment of shooting and bow tuning. I got invitations to call several of them, shoot with a few of them, even had equipment sent to me by a couple of them to try out. 

That is when my journey really kicked into gear. In a matter of months my scores on local courses jumped to 260-280`s depending on difficulty of the course and how well I was shooting on a given day. I am still not where I need to be, or where I want to be, but I am close, and I owe much of it to these Elitists being spoken of. Not a single one of them knew me from the man on the moon at the start of my journey, yet they were willing and happy to drop what their lives were handing them to help a stranger.

Pretty rotten bunch…….:lol:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Most people giving advice are trying to be helpful...even if they are a little elitist.
> 
> It's the ones that ridicule certain techniques and the archers that use them that some of us are trying to address.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray, ridiculing something is totally different from simply facing the truth of the matter.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Some people obviously are ignoring exactly what is being addressed here and twisting it to support their opinions.

Being a great shot and having an opinion...does NOT make an archer an elitist....Sheeeesh :wink:

I think some people read only what they want to read.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Even if there were elitist attitudes, I've never know a "grown man" to even worry about it enough to dwell on it to this extent. Move on to the next topic!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Even if there were elitist attitudes, I've never know a "grown man" to even worry about it enough to dwell on it to this extent. Move on to the next topic!


So the OP isn't a grown man or many of the other people who posted here verifying it and trying to expose it? He and plenty of others seem pretty grown to me :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Big Country said:


> I understand what you are saying MGF, but when dealing with a beginner I do not think this is a good indicator. Several members here were politely asked to share their journey in archery on another forum. If they were honest, and I am betting they were, they were not that accurate starting out. I know that in my journey, which is still new with singlestring bows has shown the same pattern that several of the top guys spoke of, except that I am nowhere near their level……..yet.:wink:
> 
> When I started with the stickbows, my performance gauge was scores at local 3-D`s. I started out scoring in the 180 range for 30 targets, then quickly moved up to 200. After a bunch of practice in a short amount of time I was able to hit the 240 range now and then, but would fall back to 200-210 regularly. Then I got serious, asked these Elitist shooters a gazillion questions on just about every segment of shooting and bow tuning. I got invitations to call several of them, shoot with a few of them, even had equipment sent to me by a couple of them to try out.
> 
> ...



Are you sure they were "elitist"? 

I've been involved with some folks who could really be called elitists and most of them will still help somebody who is receptive. They aren't likely to sit around while someone far less accomplished tries to tell them how to do it though.

I'm not even sure that being a little bit elitist is such a bad thing as long as you can back it up.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I'm not even sure that being a little bit elitist is such a bad thing as long as you can back it up.


That's just it....they can't back up their opinion there is only one correct way or best way for everyone.

They may think that...but they're wrong.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question about "other peoples" experience and opinion. He didn't ask for 9 pages of Ray Cook, which we all should know, will happen even if he asked any other question. There's discussion and there's bloviation page after page. We heard you the first time.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question about "other peoples" experience and opinion. He didn't ask for 9 pages of Ray Cook, which we all should know, will happen even if he asked any other question. There's discussion and there's bloviating page after page.


LOL...and how many of those pages did you post on???

Take your own advice and move on if you don't like this thread or better yet block me so you don't get so annoyed reading my posts. Talk about whining.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MGF said:


> I'm pretty scared but for the record, I don't hate you. LOL that's a good one though..."the other elites".


There is no reason to be scared, Mgf, I haven't threatened any one personally.For the record though, you seem to be one of the biggest whiners and ridiculers of successful archers on these threads and yes, you can look up the word elite in the dictionary, and my picture will be next to it.:angel:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Some people obviously are ignoring exactly what is being addressed here and twisting it to support their opinions.
> 
> Being a great shot and having an opinion...does NOT make an archer an elitist....Sheeeesh :wink:
> 
> ...


Ray, I'm in shock. It can't be stated any clearer than what you just said.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

yeah but...what's it all mean? :dontknow:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

itbeso said:


> There is no reason to be scared, Mgf, I haven't threatened any one personally.For the record though, you seem to be one of the biggest whiners and ridiculers of successful archers on these threads and yes, you can look up the word elite in the dictionary, and my picture will be next to it.:angel:


When did I whine about or ridicule anybody? I'm just not convinced that two nocking points necessarily makes a measureable difference. So rather than present evidence, you call me a whiner. I don't ridicule anybody for being good. I just call it when they make claims that they can't, or aren't willing, to support.

Anyway, I realize that you weren't threatening anybody and my comment was "tongue-in cheek".


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> yeah but...what's it all mean? :dontknow:


I think it means that I need to practice.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

MGF said:


> Are you sure they were "elitist"?
> 
> I've been involved with some folks who could really be called elitists and most of them will still help somebody who is receptive. They aren't likely to sit around while someone far less accomplished tries to tell them how to do it though.
> 
> I'm not even sure that being a little bit elitist is such a bad thing as long as you can back it up.



The "elitist" thing was just sarcasm MGF. :wink: Only our friend Ray is confused about the elitist deal. Ray mistakes common sense and honesty for elitism. :lol:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Ray, I'm in shock. It can't be stated any clearer than what you just said.


:wink: :thumbs_up



JINKSTER said:


> yeah but...what's it all mean? :dontknow:


It means...new trad archers need to be more careful who they take advice from. They could waste allot of time trying to learn how to aim Instinctively while bending at the waist, canting their bow and bending their knees if it doesn't even come close to fitting their G.A.P. profile :wink:

That's just one of a few scenarios.

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think it means that I need to practice.


It would depend on your goals and preferences Barney……..you might be way too good already? :wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Ray mistakes common sense and honesty for elitism. :lol:


Please explain your type of common sense :wink:

Are all elite archers elitist?

Are all elitists elite archers?

Does everyone share the exact same GOALS, ABILITIES and PERSONALITY?

Do you believe there is one best way for everyone to shoot a bow?

Ray :shade:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

In 3 Trad Worlds, I have been fortunate to shoot with Chris Shwandt, Spanky Brooks, OSB, Jim Powell, Ryan Ramsey, and Shana Sattler, all much better shooters than me. They were all extremely nice and helpful. Speck


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Please explain your type of common sense :wink:
> 
> Are all elite archers elitist?
> 
> ...



:chortle: You`re killing me here Ray. 

What does that list of silly questions that any third grader can correctly answer have to do with common sense? :noidea:

Nobody here has claimed different archers should not shoot different ways.
Nobody here has claimed that all archers should shoot the same way.

At least none of the people you feel are elitists have claimed that.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Those are common sense questions and the questions I've been addressing.

If you want to avoid them go right ahead. 

If you agree with me on those...than you really need to reevaluate what it is about me you have a problem with.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm beginning to realize that aiming methods and being elitist are linked:

You don't really know what you do or who you are unless Ray says so.

-Grant


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

Are you kidding OP? :set1_thinking:

Several of my friends and I are compound shooter only. I have tried traditional bows and failed...for some reason I just don't have it. :embara:At the local ranges we see traditional shooters all the time, we are fascinated by them and their abilities. :eek2:

I have seen just the opposite actually, seems around here the compound shooters have high respect for the traditional guys and the traditional guys think compound shooter are not REAL bowhunters. :dontknow:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Dang, this whole thread is nothing but the Ray Cook show,every other post is a quote and then a smiley or a wink.


Even Ken would eventually give up and quit posting!!


But everyone else is the ELiteist.


Dewayne


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## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

I've only met 2 guys that I would consider elitists but it just turned out they were a-holes and just ingnored them and they went away. It was just a matter of time this board self-destructed again. Just like a Tred Barta thread on the LW, entertaining though. Lol.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

This same thread got shut down on the LW but google cache sometimes saves them:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...=9+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Those are common sense questions and the questions I've been addressing.
> 
> If you want to avoid them go right ahead.
> 
> ...



 Ray, I can answer the questions you posted.

No
No
No
No

The question I cannot answer is why you feel the need to even ask those questions? Nobody here has claimed that everybody should shoot the same way. In fact, most people who have addressed that topic have not hinted otherwise. When some of us point out the obvious, you seem to get butt-hurt and go into a tizzy. That is the confusing part.

Lets just cut to the chase here Ray, so there is no room for misunderstanding anymore. :thumbs_up

What percentage of archers fall into the categories of hunter only, target archer only, or a combination of the two?

What percentage of archers fall into ANY other category, including, but not limited to…….horseback shooting, trick shooting, speed shooting, etc.?

My guess is 95% plus in the first line, and less than 5% in the second line.

Now, true instinctive shooting works awesome for what, MAYBE 1 archer out of every 100? Probably less than that significantly, but 1% is a fair estimation. That leaves standing up straight, and using a hard aiming system for at least 94% of archers. Hey, once they learn how to be consistently repeatable, then they can play with all sorts of fun stuff if that is their desire.

Nothing kills it for a newbie shooter, whether it be archery, firearms, handguns, etc., faster than flat out not being able to hit squat. 

One last point……I will assume that you archery hunt on top of the other archery pursuits you enjoy Ray, many of us do……….but please do not continue trying to tell how a G. Fred 3/4 pirouette is somehow a superior hunting tool over standing up straight and actually aiming the bow. It just ain`t so. 

That is the long winded answer Ray……


The short answer is that you are defending something that only exists in your mind.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Ray, I can answer the questions you posted.
> 
> No
> No
> ...


Good. Than we agree :wink:



Big Country said:


> The question I cannot answer is why you feel the need to even ask those questions?


Because those are the vary questions I've been addressing that some people have an issue with.



Big Country said:


> What percentage of archers fall into the categories of hunter only, target archer only, or a combination of the two? What percentage of archers fall into ANY other category, including, but not limited to…….horseback shooting, trick shooting, speed shooting, etc.?


Don't know. I address each individual archer as an individual and do NOT ASSUME I know anything about them...so I find out at the very least what their GOALS are. It can save them allot of time by heading them down in a more appropriate direction. 

So based on my approach...I don't need to know any percentage of who does what. 



Big Country said:


> Now, true instinctive shooting works awesome for what, MAYBE 1 archer out of every 100?


I really have no idea...I just know it can and does work for many who actually don't use it as an excuse for poor shooting.



Big Country said:


> One last point……I will assume that you archery hunt on top of the other archery pursuits you enjoy Ray, many of us do……….but please do not continue trying to tell how a G. Fred 3/4 pirouette is somehow a superior hunting tool over standing up straight and actually aiming the bow. It just ain`t so.


Asbell's technique is superior for many archers who hunt from the ground, aim Instinctively and want to be able to take any reasonable shot that may present itself in a short window of opportunity. Many bowhunters who hunt from the ground stalk and sneek in a crouched position to try and close the distance. Being able to shoot from that position can be an advantage.

Asbell's technique in many will NOT be superior for every archer or every circumstance...especially in regards to target competition....unless of course the target competition involves shooting at aerial targets. Than it's advantages may become more clear.



Big Country said:


> The short answer is that you are defending something that only exists in your mind.


You need a serious lesson in reading comprehension. It does NOT exist only in my mind. That's something you and a few others believe. I am FAR from the only one who shares my views on this. Go back and re-read this thread. The majority of this thread is based on a few who are arguing about issues they are making up with me and have chosen to turn this into something personal rather than discussing the facts...so you will have to pay attention better.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Dang, this whole thread is nothing but the Ray Cook show,every other post is a quote and then a smiley or a wink.


LOL...NOPE! It also involves you and a few others...but you rather ignore the facts and pretend you're not a part of this.



vabowdog said:


> But everyone else is the ELiteist.


Like I said before...the 'elitists' I'm addressing are those that think there is only one correct or best way for everyone to shoot...no matter what their G.A.P. profile is.

It you believe that...than IMO...you're an 'elitist'.

If you don't believe that...than I don't think you're an elitist....so there's no way everyone else can be an elitist :wink: That's something you've made up.

Ray :shade:


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

vabowdog said:


> Itbeso, great post, I've said it 1000 times if I would have sought out the best trad archer in my area and asked for advice I could have saved so many years of frustration...if I would have had a World Champion to frequent and shoot with then the sky would have been the limit.
> 
> 
> Dewayne


This is why i love California!! I get to shoot with some of the best archers in the World on a constant basis. A win in California might as well be a world title.. I look up to the "Elite" Shooters and lucky that 99.9% of them i consider friends. It pushes me to better myself as an archer as one day i hope to be labeled an Elite archer. There is a sweet thing that happens when you at a tournament sharing a target with a competitor of this caliber... You find yourself spotting or helping the very guy that is trying to kick your butt. There is a thrill that comes with battling target for target, arrow for arrow, point for point.. If this is what some of you are calling an elitist sign me up... From what ive seen these very people are helping the next generation of shooter in every way they can to get them up to par so they can have more competition. Being on this upcoming list i have never been snuffed when asking for help or support from these guys.... Ive never been looked down on either for not shooting as well..never.

Infact i see the opposite.. Ben nailed it.. As i get better i see that if you shoot a great score you get bashed for it... Instead of someone saying great job, we get hmm must of cheated.. It seems that the new archers or archers that put in less time as the ELite few are the ones that have the ELitist attitudes at this point... Its very rare that someone asks for advice or wants to see what your doing to better there game, they rather talk crap.. It seems this type of view is more prevalent in the local shoots.. Once you get to the Nationals, States, Etc.. we are all equal no matter what bow is in your hand... The money and awards are a whole other issue!!!haha

When in vegas i had gotten so much praise from the Compound Freestyle guys during practice.. I was on the line with all the top guys and me the lonely Trad Recurve guy.. Not once did i feel out of place, not once did they laugh or talk down.. Infact we all chatted like we were the same..Because we are.. We were all there for the love of the sport... Many stated to me they couldn't do what i did with my bow, and i expressed the same to them.. It was a mutual respect for our craft.. The organizers may feel different as we get treated poorly as Trad archers.. But the Archers are very respectful.. 

All this Elitist crap seems to be something made up long before i was here and is being held on to by a few that may not get out much.. But from what ive seen archery is starting to unite more and more.. 

One last thing.. I noticed that the people in this sport that have the biggest issues with other archers rarely have ever spoken to that particular archer they have an issue with.. Example.. I know a couple people that Hate Brady Ellison. I asked if they ever talked to him they say no hes just a dick, he gets paid all this money and hes a dick.. Well ive talked to Brady seems like a nice guy, hell in vegas i watched him sign close to 100 autographs all with a smile on his face while still on the arena floor.. They have formed an opinion of the guy based on what others have said or what they read.. If everyone took the time to talk to others outside of their core group you will find the Elitist attitude is a figment of the imagination.

Ramble over..


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You need a serious lesson in reading comprehension. It does NOT exist only in my mind. That's something you and a few others believe. I am FAR from the only one who shares my views on this. Go back and re-read this thread. The majority of this thread is based on a few who are arguing about issues they are making up with me and have chosen to turn this into something personal rather than discussing the facts...so you will have to pay attention better.
> 
> Ray :shade:



Ray, I deal with 8 and 9 digit contracts on a monthly basis. My reading comprehension is pretty fair.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> You need some work on your spelling, Forest. It is elites, not elitists:teeth: I will admit, Carly Simon did write that song about me, and not Warren Beatty as everyone suspected. Who woke you up from your stupor anyway? Go back out in the yard and shoot some pine cones.:wink:



Elitist; characteristic of a person who has an offensive air of superiority and tends to ignore or disdain anyone regarded as inferior. :bartstush:
In our case there are more than one, as in plural, so I put the S at the end.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

You're calling me an elitist....but you're the one responding to everyones comments with GAP this and GAP that and here a wink,there a wink.....geeez......easy patting yourself on the back so hard your liable to hurt your hand....:wink::wink::thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> Ray, I deal with 8 and 9 digit contracts on a monthly basis. My reading comprehension is pretty fair.


Even an idiot can see I'm NOT the only person who sees and recognizes that elitism exists in our archery community. Sheeesh!

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> You're calling me an elitist.


 Are you sure?

Do you think there is one correct or best way for everyone to shoot a bow and arrow? If so....what is it?

If you don't believe that than I don't think you're an elitist and you need to stop crying wolf :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I think the emoticon winks are most annoying .......

Jus' saying

:wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

benofthehood said:


> I think the emoticon winks are most annoying .......
> 
> Jus' saying
> 
> :wink:


Why does something soooo insignificant annoy you?

Ray :shade:


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

*Letters to the Editor*

To the Editor:
_*For the past several years I have been reading of and listening to considerable quibbling amongst sight shooters, string walkers and instinctors. Certainly any archer, no matter what method he employs, who can shoot 500 plus is to be admired and can take great pride in his achievement. I think howerver, that it is time that archery becomes grown up and generous to recognize all tpes of archers.*_

*Archery World Magazine
page 4
June 1968*


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Humdinger that was a great post, many of the things you wrote I've experienced at World/Euro tourneys, one of the main reasons I shoot International tourneys is because of the great people I meet and the friendships and memories I bring home.

99% of the people I've had issues with are because of these Archery Forums and I think most of that would never have happened if we actually communicated face to face. It's a mistake I've made myself in the past but these days I try and view all other opinions in a positive light (difficult when being attacked directly lol) and my opinion isn't more valid and I have no reason to prove the other person wrong, just my own personal experiences which may be very different to another person. I've had a lot less Forum conflicts since.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Yewselfbow,

1968?!? Thanks for sharing that.

For something some people say doesn't exist...it sure has been going on for awhile :wink:

Ray :shade:



Ray :shade:


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

BLACK WOLF said:


> An elite archer is someone who is at the top of their class...whether it be in the military, sports or some highly regarded position.
> ...but we're NOT discussing who is elite.
> 
> We're basically discussing other archers with an 'elitist' attitude in regards to form and/or aiming techniques. They will often self proclaim themselves and/or their techniques as being better than anyone else's and/or ridicule others that don't shoot their way.
> ...


So if these people are winning (at whatever discipline), is their method not the best? Seems pretty obvious that what ever they are doing should be a good model.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

centershot said:


> So if these people are winning (at whatever discipline), is their method not the best?


It's definitely an indication of what could be best for that style/discipline.

That's exactly what I've been trying to get some people and new archers to understand.

Research the techniques that fit your GOALS.

Ray :shade:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

VA. Bowbender said:


> I will probably get jumped all over for this but I have to express what I'm seeing.
> I've been shooting recurves for over 50 years. When I started there was no "traditional" archery we were all just Bowhunters or Archers. As compounds came into their own there became an elitist attitude among them where they looked down at the recurve and longbow shooters. They also developed somewhat of a snobby attitude toward each other. Now I see a lot of admiration for what we can do with our bows.
> Now what I'm seeing on different forums is a complete reversal of roles. The "traditional" shooters are developing the same attitude toward the high tech archers and even among the ranks of traditional shooters.
> Now I do have to say that when I go to some of the various rendezvous there still exists a tight camaraderie.
> ...


It seems to me the subject of this thread is the possible elitist attitude that some traditional archers have toward compound archers. Why this devolved into another whizzing match about barebow aiming methods and passive-aggressive whining about target archers is beyond me. Sometimes I wonder why OSB was the only one banned for constantly arguing with people.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it is time to lock this one up and throw away the key.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I have had some banter with Compounds but it's always friendly and I've never felt they were elitist towards me, it might be because 90% of Archers on this side of the pond start out as Trad and progress to other shooting styles like the Compound, they just never forget their roots and that respect is always been there.

Our tourneys are mixed in with the Compounds and we all shoot from the same stakes, I think this shooting together also helps bond respect/friendships with other styles.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's definitely an indication of what could be best for that style/discipline.
> 
> That's exactly what I've been trying to get some people and new archers to understand.
> 
> ...


Fellow Posters, this will come as a shock to most, but I am going to stick up for Ray, in a way. I feel that I halfway figured Ray out a while back. One of the problems I had with Ray was that the way he communicated made him seem like a contrarian on every topic that came up. Then I made an attempt to try to understand what his message really was. Ray will probably take exception to what I am going to say but so be it. Rays' message is really quite simple, he recognizes that some aiming systems are better than others, but on the other hand, he feels some systems work better under different applications, therefore no one system is better for all types of archery. A lot of top tournament archers have spent a lot of time perfecting the aiming system they use and, in their mind, that system is the be all to end all. I totally get their reasoning, but they feel they are being slighted by Rays analysis, when they are not. If you really read Rays message, it very general in nature, very basic in content, and very repetitive, which seems to annoy people the most. In reading Rays posts over the last couple of years I have learned the following things which led me to other hypotheses. Ray has stated that he attended an indoor Nationals where he found out about what pressure does to your scores, and he stated that he got target panic as a direct result of that. A lot of archers ask Ray why he doesn't come out and play on a national stage. My opinion is that he has had a taste of that and found that it is harder than a lot think and he doesn't want to get into a situation where the dreaded TP can inflict more damage. I, personally don't have a problem with that as I have seen a lot of archers quit the sport because they couldn't handle the frustration of not being able to control their body functions with a bow in hand. Ray also likes to throw the elitist word around just, in my opinion, to get under the skin of the top tier archers. Ignore that and embrace it, I am going to. And, As I previously stated, I am going to affix my own label to those who I feel are trying to put down successful archers. I have no doubt in my mind that on his local level, Ray tries to help as many archers as he can.This alone , in my way of thinking, makes him a big asset to the archery community. All the other stuff is just Internet rhetoric.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Fellow Posters, this will come as a shock to most, but I am going to stick up for Ray, in a way. I feel that I halfway figured Ray out a while back. One of the problems I had with Ray was that the way he communicated made him seem like a contrarian on every topic that came up. Then I made an attempt to try to understand what his message really was. Ray will probably take exception to what I am going to say but so be it. Rays' message is really quite simple, he recognizes that some aiming systems are better than others, but on the other hand, he feels some systems work better under different applications, therefore no one system is better for all types of archery. A lot of top tournament archers have spent a lot of time perfecting the aiming system they use and, in their mind, that system is the be all to end all. I totally get their reasoning, but they feel they are being slighted by Rays analysis, when they are not. If you really read Rays message, it very general in nature, very basic in content, and very repetitive, which seems to annoy people the most. In reading Rays posts over the last couple of years I have learned the following things which led me to other hypotheses. Ray has stated that he attended an indoor Nationals where he found out about what pressure does to your scores, and he stated that he got target panic as a direct result of that. A lot of archers ask Ray why he doesn't come out and play on a national stage. My opinion is that he has had a taste of that and found that it is harder than a lot think and he doesn't want to get into a situation where the dreaded TP can inflict more damage. I, personally don't have a problem with that as I have seen a lot of archers quit the sport because they couldn't handle the frustration of not being able to control their body functions with a bow in hand. Ray also likes to throw the elitist word around just, in my opinion, to get under the skin of the top tier archers. Ignore that and embrace it, I am going to. And, As I previously stated, I am going to affix my own label to those who I feel are trying to put down successful archers. I have no doubt in my mind that on his local level, Ray tries to help as many archers as he can.This alone , in my way of thinking, makes him a big asset to the archery community. All the other stuff is just Internet rhetoric.


Ben...I must say....that is a very thorough psycho-analysis of Ray's past journey in archery....I'm shocked you know so much about the man...the myth...the legend! :laugh:

But Mr. Rodgers....have you considered this?...that maybe the possibility exists that because these highly disciplined, form/gap, target shooters are well aware that there is only one true (and difficult for many to follow) pathway to classic archery stardom (as it relates to organized scored tournaments) and so narrowly focused and obsessed with the "Success" of it all that they simply forget that the many who find such far too difficult therefore un-enjoyable (let alone fun and relaxing) wind up posting replies like this?...



TheScOuT said:


> I have tried traditional bows and failed...for some reason I just don't have it. :embara:At the local ranges we see traditional shooters all the time, we are fascinated by them and their abilities. :eek2:
> 
> I have seen just the opposite actually, seems around here the compound shooters have high respect for the traditional guys and the traditional guys think compound shooter are not REAL bowhunters. :dontknow:


and that maybe...just maybe...there are a plethora of folks out there who are not so much fixated on becoming a successful tourney archer but just wish to become proficient enough to relax and enjoy themselves with doing such and?....it is possible that those are the folks that Ray wishes to target as an audience and inform these potential trad archers in an effort to make sure they are aware that there IS more than one way to shoot or aim a non-sighted, classic, one string bow?

I mean...Thank Goodness that Lars Anderson didn't read a lot of what's on some of these forums or he might still be blank baling and bridging back! :laugh:

But FWIW?...I think things such as...

keeping and open mind....

accepting: that many folks glean great enjoyment from just shooting to relax and have fun...

realizing: that not everyone has the same goals in mind when they buy that bow....

and?...

Knowing: that there is in fact more than one way to shoot or aim a bow....

would go a long ways in growing our sport instead of reading the "I Failed & Gave Up" postings like the one above.

But?...that's just me sharing some of my thoughts on the topic...and as usual.....I could be all wrong. 

I gotta go now....I got some limbs I've got to straighten out or blow up...whichever comes first! :laugh:

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Fellow Posters, this will come as a shock to most, but I am going to stick up for Ray, in a way. I feel that I halfway figured Ray out a while back. One of the problems I had with Ray was that the way he communicated made him seem like a contrarian on every topic that came up. Then I made an attempt to try to understand what his message really was. Ray will probably take exception to what I am going to say but so be it. Rays' message is really quite simple, he recognizes that some aiming systems are better than others, but on the other hand, he feels some systems work better under different applications, therefore no one system is better for all types of archery. A lot of top tournament archers have spent a lot of time perfecting the aiming system they use and, in their mind, that system is the be all to end all. I totally get their reasoning, but they feel they are being slighted by Rays analysis, when they are not. If you really read Rays message, it very general in nature, very basic in content, and very repetitive, which seems to annoy people the most.


I'm impressed, Ben. You basically understand me in that regards.



itbeso said:


> A lot of archers ask Ray why he doesn't come out and play on a national stage. My opinion is that he has had a taste of that and found that it is harder than a lot think and he doesn't want to get into a situation where the dreaded TP can inflict more damage.


It wasn't the level of competition that caused my TP to flare up but it was primarily the changing of the target. I was told I could shoot the single spot so that's all I practiced on for months but when I checked in they told me I had to shoot the 3 spot...and man did that mess with my head.

I've competed with exceptional shots before and have performed in front of crowds so that wasn't to hard for me.

I really do appreciate you making the effort to try and understand me better rather than jumping to conclusions based on a poor assumption.

The main thing that keeps me from competing in World Championship 3D competitions is finances. I rather spend my money going on hunting and fishing trips with friends and family than going to a 3D competition.

There use to be an annual 3D competition that I attended every year with 300 - 500 archers showing up...but I stopped going because they eliminated the big 3D competition.

I admit to trying to rib certain archers but it's the elitist I'll rib...not just any good target archer.

Ray :shade:


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

Actually I started before it was trad , it was just archery. I know longer shoot compounds, hence the full circle remark. 




Big Country said:


> Your thinking was not wrong on some of the folks who switched from wheels to sticks. Know a bunch who have switched myself. Some are pretty fair shooters, but some, well……….


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

Actually we have a new king , he only plays golf though. So not much of a king



voodoofire1 said:


> Maybe true over there, but we threw the king out long ago, archery is enjoyed by just good salt of the earth people here. Heck the only kings over here are king George Straight, and king Richard Petty and they aren't archers.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ray

You keep implying that people are "elitist" because they feel there is only one way to shoot/aim a bow. 

I believe you are a physical trainer. So I ask you this - when you teach some one to do a squat do you say "there is the bar knock yourself out" or do you teach them the correct way to do it??

Just like with a squat, as you know well, there is a correct way to learn shooting a bow. I say learn because once you know the alignment and steps of a well executed shot then you can do whatever you want with it. But to encourage someone to go down the G Fred road right from the get go will either A) make for a much harder learning curve or B) send them away from traditional archery all together. 

Archery is like any technique intensive sport you have to learn the basics before you can improvise based on your GAP. 

Matt


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Letting a new archer start off by trying to shoot instinctive I believe is a huge mistake...and I don't care what their GAP may be.

Learning to shoot instinctive accurately is a life long achievement IMO...there is nothing wrong with wanting to learn that method of shooting I just wouldn't recommend it first.

This whole world is all about instant gratification...and trying to shoot a bow for 3-5 years and achieving little reward or accuracy is tough...I know...Ive been there.

Most people thwt start shooting a bow wants some kind of accuracy to show their buddies and not to look like a fool in front of local club members.

I'm ONLY speaking from my little circle of 3-D shooters from IBO and ASA if you don't have a designated method of shooting the bow like gap or pick a point,a way to check yourself you will not be successful.


Dewayne Martin


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Learning to shoot instinctive accurately is a life long achievement IMO...there is nothing wrong with wanting to learn that method of shooting I just wouldn't recommend it first.
> 
> Dewayne Martin


Good post.

When I'm teaching I give them all the options and let them chose what appeals but I strongly suggest to try both Gap and Instinct to see what fits them best. I know some hardcore Instinctive shots feel if you start of Gap you have somehow contaminated your Subconscious and never be a pure Instinct again  this is simply not true, many good shots switch between Gap and Instinct depending on the shot.

It is my feeling the key aspect of learning Gap is you have better feedback between Form and Aiming errors and it can help most newer Archers progress faster. I'm teaching several hundred newbies per week, so I do see a pattern.

It does worry me when somebody insists on teaching only one method, not everybody is wired for Instinct or Gap for that matter.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso&Jinkster, I'm glad you guys realize those things and took the time to post it. Someone has to be the bad guy at times and BlackWolf steps up to the plate.
Maybe some people are annoyed with the repetition of those posts but, they are necessary to keep both sides balanced. Otherwise the forum would be ruled by a few and would eventually become a question and answer forum with a few experts available to answer the questions. That would obviously be very biased and unbalanced.
Ben, I think you have it figured out quite well and you are an ELITE in more ways than one. Not an elitist as is being discussed in this thread.
Jinks, many of us appreciate your efforts to keep recreational shooting, 'just for the fun of it' in the spotlight. Good job.

I have personally seen the elitism at 3d shoots among compounders. It's obvious that some shooting high dollar bows with the best scopes money can buy look down their noses at the guys in the hunter class shooting their everyday hunting bow. Nothing really said, it's just sort of like they are ok for these guys to pay their entry fee and the big boys will tolerate their presence. Of course they would loudly contest that statement but, since I observed it with my own eyes, I don't care how loud they scream, it's still true.
And then there is the forum situation. Most of the guilty parties probably don't even realize that they are showing that air of superiority which they think entitles them to automatic respect from all others. And that leaves a person who has no interest in scoring points on a paper target with good information which doesn't apply to them.
So, GO BlackWolf! Keep up the good fight and never give in to the pressure from those who just don't 'get it'. :set1_applaud:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt,

Great analogy and yes I teach all my clients to use the safest and most effective way to perform a lift...but in archery there are a number of compromises an individual archer may need to make to help them fulfill their GOALS. Even target archers make compromises and there's debate on what's best.

Ray :shade:


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

I learned a long time ago , if you truly want to get good at something pay attention to those that are at the top of the competition arena and pretty much ignore the rest until you at least have somewhat of a handle on it. Honestly vocal local hotshots don't impress me at all , but that small percentage on the top got there for a reason and they are the one's that get my attention. 
And those are the guys I want to hear from on the ways of shooting and when they try to give a learning moment I'm all ears without all the clutter from the internet pro's that don't or won't put themselves out there.
Just my opinion


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Letting a new archer start off by trying to shoot instinctive I believe is a huge mistake...and I don't care what their GAP may be.
> 
> Learning to shoot instinctive accurately is a life long achievement IMO...there is nothing wrong with wanting to learn that method of shooting I just wouldn't recommend it first.
> 
> ...



I could possibly agree with you on some level. But, I think you are forgetting about the thousands of people, many of them youngsters, who don't have local club members or buddies to impress. Some lose interest quickly if you make it too complicated and I have seen it with my own eyes.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MotherLode said:


> I learned a long time ago , if you truly want to get good at something pay attention to those that are at the top of the competition arena and pretty much ignore the rest until you at least have somewhat of a handle on it. Honestly vocal local hotshots don't impress me at all , but that small percentage on the top got there for a reason and they are the one's that get my attention.
> And those are the guys I want to hear from on the ways of shooting and when they try to give a learning moment I'm all ears without all the clutter from the internet pro's that don't or won't put themselves out there.
> Just my opinion



Like you said, that's your opinion and wonderful for you, but in no way does that apply to everyone else. I accept that you may have no idea what the world is like outside your box but, you can bet there are people out there who have no interest in what the world champs are doing because it's a totally different pursuit from their own.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

VA. Bowbender said:


> I will probably get jumped all over for this but I have to express what I'm seeing.
> I've been shooting recurves for over 50 years. When I started there was no "traditional" archery we were all just Bowhunters or Archers. As compounds came into their own there became an elitist attitude among them where they looked down at the recurve and longbow shooters. They also developed somewhat of a snobby attitude toward each other. Now I see a lot of admiration for what we can do with our bows.
> Now what I'm seeing on different forums is a complete reversal of roles. The "traditional" shooters are developing the same attitude toward the high tech archers and even among the ranks of traditional shooters.
> Now I do have to say that when I go to some of the various rendezvous there still exists a tight camaraderie.
> ...


It is just the nature of our sport. Archery is not a team sport, it is individualistic, as depicted in famous movie scenes where one archer one-ups the other by splitting his arrow, earning roars of cheers and admiration, while the guy who hit the original bull is immediately forgotten. How much more egoistic and elitist can it get?

Yes, I know team events are held as well. But that's not exactly team work, unless one guy shoots while the other holds the bow. 

There will always be elitists. They have earned the right to isolate themselves from the fun and company the rest of us enjoy.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

theminoritydude said:


> It is just the nature of our sport. Archery is not a team sport, it is individualistic, as depicted in famous movie scenes where one archer one-ups the other by splitting his arrow, earning roars of cheers and admiration, while the guy who hit the original bull is immediately forgotten. How much more egoistic and elitist can it get?
> 
> Yes, I know team events are held as well. But that's not exactly team work, unless one guy shoots while the other holds the bow.
> 
> *There will always be elitists. They have earned the right to isolate themselves from the fun and company the rest of us enjoy.*


*Extremely Well PUT!* :laugh:

and with that?...I'll hang with the squirrels! :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> *Extremely Well PUT!* :laugh:
> 
> and with that?...I'll hang with the squirrels! :laugh:


Yeah... but what about Adult Deficit Disorder in High Definition???


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

Actually it comes from my personal experience by stepping out of my box, it is easy to pump our ego's when we stay in our own little box and pecking on the keyboard. What different pursuit ? it's archery , the goal is putting an arrow on it's mark , nothing more , nothing less , there are those that talk, and those that do. I'll put my money on those that have put themselves out there for all to see and criticize . The fact is the cream rises to the top , and if you aren't good at hitting an animate object such as a 3-D animal or a target face regardless of where it is on the target butt, you will not be good at hitting a animal with hair on it. To think any different is just not being truthful to yourself.



FORESTGUMP said:


> Like you said, that's your opinion and wonderful for you, but in no way does that apply to everyone else. I accept that you may have no idea what the world is like outside your box but, you can bet there are people out there who have no interest in what the world champs are doing because it's a totally different pursuit from their own.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MotherLode said:


> The fact is the cream rises to the top , and if you aren't good at hitting an animate object such as a 3-D animal or a target face regardless of where it is on the target butt, you will not be good at hitting a animal with hair on it. To think any different is just not being truthful to yourself.


Just for clarification...I pretty much agree...but an archer does not need to compete to prove that to themselves or anyone else.

Formal competition can cause other mental issues that won't necessarily affect a bowhunter's ability to shoot accurately at an animal.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> itbeso&Jinkster, I'm glad you guys realize those things and took the time to post it. Someone has to be the bad guy at times and BlackWolf steps up to the plate.
> Maybe some people are annoyed with the repetition of those posts but, they are necessary to keep both sides balanced. Otherwise the forum would be ruled by a few and would eventually become a question and answer forum with a few experts available to answer the questions. That would obviously be very biased and unbalanced.
> 
> I have personally seen the elitism at 3d shoots among compounders. It's obvious that some shooting high dollar bows with the best scopes money can buy look down their noses at the guys in the hunter class shooting their everyday hunting bow. Nothing really said, it's just sort of like they are ok for these guys to pay their entry fee and the big boys will tolerate their presence. Of course they would loudly contest that statement but, since I observed it with my own eyes, I don't care how loud they scream, it's still true.
> ...


:thumbs_up :wink:


Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I think "THIS" should be required viewing for anyone who thinks "Instinctive" is hogwash...when the truth of the matter is?...

some of us might be like Shaq while Others are Like Sasha! :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

And here I was thinking that one's self esteem was how one felt about ones self..... ones comfort level with ones *own*.... :grin: Cream.... you know... the trouble with cream is it sours.... One's self esteem mellows... that is the benefit of experience and knowing you're doing the best you can or what you're comfortable with the rest be damned.... God judges... man should just appreciate.


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

Ray, I haven't competed in years and I spent many years doing it , even won a few. Never happened when particular people showed up though, there are those that are truly eye openers on a consistent basis. And those are the ones that perked my ears up , they are on a different level. And those are the one's don't sit in their backyards. 
As for target or animal , never did target jitters ever compare to the adrenaline of an animal in the field. 




BLACK WOLF said:


> Just for clarification...I pretty much agree...but an archer does not need to compete to prove that to themselves or anyone else.
> 
> Formal competition can cause other mental issues that won't necessarily affect a bowhunter's ability to shoot accurately at an animal.
> 
> Ray :shade:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Dewayne....we all know you don't care much for Instinctive. We also know that you are a great shot, you have proven this in high level competition. But as you stated about how you struggled with Instinctive, I struggle with any other method but that. If I think about the arrow during any part of the shot, I will miss the mark, sometimes the whole target. I have tried everything but stringwalking and I simply can't do it, don't know why, just can't. The way I shoot takes me to about the 40yd mark, but goes downhill after that and I'm ok with that(insert G.A.P). My archery goals are completely covered by my style. Ray does have a point with the GAP profile. Nothing wrong with trying to get better as long as you are able to recognize when something is helping or actually hurting your shooting as it pertains to your end goal. Speck


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I could possibly agree with you on some level. But, I think you are forgetting about the thousands of people, many of them youngsters, who don't have local club members or buddies to impress. Some lose interest quickly if you make it too complicated and I have seen it with my own eyes.


If someone losses interest that quickly they aren't worth trying to keep in the sport. It's the poor guy who has been "just burning a hole" 10 hours a week for the last 5 years and still can't hit anything who has the drive to actually succeed. He just needs the right tools to do it.

Grant


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Forest, have you been working with the kiddos lately? Let me tell you, clubs can't be formed fast enough to fill the interest. Adults email regularly for certification to form new clubs because others are chock full and keeping waiting lists. Just check the number of kids going into the NASP and JOAD programs. Better yet, spend about 3-4 evenings a week working with the new folks. You won't see lost interest because of formality in the teaching. Fact is, you will see hunger for a proven method. It ain't complicated.

Now, guess what. They all use the same book on archery as written by an elite. It's not all some newfangled stuff, it's just basic archery and happens to be the book chosen. Others would suffice, some more so. Yes, it teaches it all, even instinctive. That's not to say we all can agree on all the aspects of the program, but at the base level, it gets folks up and running.

On the other hand, there's the esoteric out there others would have you call "methods". It might be a guy's book on how to take more deer with this aiming method, or, a YouTube on some guy shooting x-arrow per minute. That's all fine and dandy, but it's not a method unless you would also consider basketball coaching good if at the basic level folks were started out trying to get the most hoops per minute. That stuff has its place and time as techniques of a system, but not at the expense of basic knowledge and methods of the system.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Speck1 said:


> Dewayne....we all know you don't care much for Instinctive. We also know that you are a great shot, you have proven this in high level competition. But as you stated about how you struggled with Instinctive, I struggle with any other method but that. If I think about the arrow during any part of the shot, I will miss the mark, sometimes the whole target. I have tried everything but stringwalking and I simply can't do it, don't know why, just can't. The way I shoot takes me to about the 40yd mark, but goes downhill after that and I'm ok with that(insert G.A.P). My archery goals are completely covered by my style. Ray does have a point with the GAP profile. Nothing wrong with trying to get better as long as you are able to recognize when something is helping or actually hurting your shooting as it pertains to your end goal. Speck


Well put Speck and I feel your...well?..."Freedom"...as that's the word which best describes my current and chosen shooting methods....which I love...and if I had to do it the other way?...all the time?...my stick bows would be for sale so I could buy a sight and release for my (1) compound and that would be that.

What I don't get is how or why the success driven tourney target archers can't understand how others might simply enjoy relaxing and having fun shooting their bows....and while I applaud their accomplishments?....and will clap for them...pat them on the back and shout out Great Job!?....at the same time don't expect that I'll be bust'in my butt trying to shoot exactly like they do...or polishing anyone's belt buckle.....or carrying their quiver or?....(and most importantly)....

This...and is the part that absolutely kills me...is that I will have to stand idly by as they attempt to convince all newcomers to the sport that there's only one way to enjoy shooting a single string bow....or risk getting flamed and/or humiliated for how I choose to shoot.

There's another thread going on right now where an apparent newcomer is inquiring about aiming instinctively...to bad none of the replies I've seen thusfar are from folks who actually do. Sad.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Well put Speck and I feel your...well?..."Freedom"...as that's the word which best describes my current and chosen shooting methods....which I love...and if I had to do it the other way?...all the time?...my stick bows would be for sale so I could buy a sight and release for my (1) compound and that would be that.
> 
> What I don't get is how or why the success driven tourney target archers can't understand how others might simply enjoy relaxing and having fun shooting their bows....and while I applaud their accomplishments?....and will clap for them...pat them on the back and shout out Great Job!?....at the same time don't expect that I'll be bust'in my butt trying to shoot exactly like they do...or polishing anyone's belt buckle.....or carrying their quiver or?....(and most importantly)....
> 
> ...


Jinks, I can only speak for the way I think, but I feel you are missing the message and, or, intent of the posts you reference. As an archer who puts a lot of value on accuracy, I want to help every archer I can to achieve the highest level of accuracy they can in the style of shooting they choose. Now, I think that all the top shooters I know feel the same way, except they don't always communicate those feelings clearly enough so that they are properly interpreted. I know that I don't give a care what style anyone shoots, how they aim or who their role models are and I think most archers are the same, but that doesn't stop me from wanting the archers I run into, to be the best they can be. That doesn't mean I browbeat everyone with my style of shooting, I don't. The thing That I will do is steer them in that direction if they ask me for help. I think that is also the attitude and intent of a lot of the archers who come across as one trick ponies, they know all the mistakes they made that delayed their success and they are just trying to shorten the learning curve for the new people. It took me a lot of years in the sport to realize that not everyone has my passion or competitiveness. At that point, It became much easier for me to accept other levels of commitment in our sport. Now, when in more informal archery settings I just go with the flow and save the serious arrows for the times when I consider the stakes important to me.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Itbeso, thanks for putting into words what I struggle to....you've met me and know I only want the best for all.


Speck, you're right, I do have a hard time believing archers can get the accuracy they desire trying to shoot instinctive...I guess because I never could...I try to be as open minded about it as I can but I also remember very vividly all the struggling years I had.


Jinks, don't label me as a one trick pony that all I can do is polish my buckles or my plastic trophies....you've showed your 1996 trophies twit were won with compounds here on this trad forum much more than I've even mentioned my buckles or plastic trophies...you paid your entree fee and chickened out at a fun shoot for gods sake all because you said you couldn't stand the pressure....



I know sometimes I may come across as my way or the hiway but like Ben said, I hate to see archers struggling when to me it's so easy to understand the process.




Dewayne


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Itbeso, thanks for putting into words what I struggle to....you've met me and know I only want the best for all.
> 
> 
> Speck, you're right, I do have a hard time believing archers can get the accuracy they desire trying to shoot instinctive...I guess because I never could...I try to be as open minded about it as I can but I also remember very vividly all the struggling years I had.
> ...


I recognized that about you the first time I met you Dwayne. I also see it in so many others. As I said, the problem I had for many years was being oblivious to the passion and commitment levels of others, therefore I was probably a little overbearing in my approach to them. I know our hearts are in the right place but passion sometimes blinds us to the goals of others. Nowadays, I take a kinder, gentler (lol) approach when dealing with archers with questions even though my passion burns as bright as ever. Don't ever apologize for your passion, Dwayne, and keep up the good work and success you are having .


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> Jinks, don't label me as a one trick pony that all I can do is polish my buckles or my plastic trophies....you've showed your 1996 trophies twit were won with compounds here on this trad forum much more than I've even mentioned my buckles or plastic trophies...you paid your entree fee and chickened out at a fun shoot for gods sake all because you said you couldn't stand the pressure....
> 
> Dewayne


Whoa Whoa! WHOA!....hold up a second...who labeled you or even mentioned the term "One Trick Pony"?

not I sir.

And yes...Guilty as charged on the trophy pix but...most times it was for validation purposes due to being spoken down to and belittled as though I haven't a clue of what competitive archery is about by....guess who?..."Elitists".....right here.....imagine that.

and the "Chickend Out" part?...you tossed in at the end there for what?.....good measure?....so allow me to clarify your twisted memory of that...

I met Pat Carter the first night up there....he introduced me to his crew....they found me friendly and intriguing and invited me to shoot with them the following day (since I drove up there 200 mile north by myself)...and I was honored to do so since Pat Carter grew up with Jackie Bushmen and has been on his Buckmasters show...he also was instrumental in the start up and formation of the host club there with his good friends Byron Ferguson and Dickey Betts...and another shooter in his crew there was Don Davis....who was actually hosting the guest speaker for the banquet at that event "T.J. Conrads" at his house...it wasn't until I started warming up and shooting the fun course with them the following morning that they informed me that "They" had no ambitions or intentions to compete claiming they were just there for fun and meeting old friends...and since I had a blast shooting with them?...as Pat was making me up a dozen new cedars so I could go compete snapping with my longbow?...I made a command decision that I too would forego the competition for the honor and continued fun of shooting with this crew for the remainder of the event...and I don't regret a moment of it and feel rather privileged that Pat invited me up to Alabama's Tannehill Childrens Hospital shoot next weekend (but I won't be able to afford to go time/work/money wise) but Pat also befriended me on FB and his friends list looks like a who's who of the traditional archery world.

so it was far, far away from "Chickened Out" sir....it was more like "Lucked Out"....heck...the entire 8 ring vital zone at that shoot was being scored as 10 points! LOL!

But while I never labeled you as anything...according to you I'm a chicken?...well Dwayne?...just call me Colonel Sanders! LOL!

at this point?....I hope you have a better evening Dwayne...I'll pray for you.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> If someone losses interest that quickly they aren't worth trying to keep in the sport. It's the poor guy who has been "just burning a hole" 10 hours a week for the last 5 years and still can't hit anything who has the drive to actually succeed. He just needs the right tools to do it.
> 
> Grant



I could apply your first statement to the type of person you mention in the second. Even I would advise such an individual that it might be time to try something different.
But to make a blanket statement as your first one covers lots of territory including very young beginners and I have seen the result of turning shooting into a chore instead of a fun activity. I just watch a little while and then start introducing ideas as they seem ready for them. That's usually within the first hour Grant, not five years.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Hold on Jinks, chill man. The elites are just slappin each other on the back, circling the wagons while throwing out the usual slurs about instinctive shooters. All because they couldn't do it, imagine that. But that's not the same as being an elitist ya know. I think it's big of a man to say "I couldn't do it so I leave that to people who can" without a sly attempt at making fun of the method.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Hold on Jinks, chill man. The elites are just slappin each other on the back, circling the wagons while throwing out the usual slurs about instinctive shooters. All because they couldn't do it, imagine that.


Hah...whatever.....I guess I should thank them all...it appears to me they're going to save me a lot of money cause my backyard is looking better and better with every post.

sad though really.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Whoa Whoa! WHOA!....hold up a second...who labeled you or even mentioned the term "One Trick Pony"?
> 
> not I sir.
> 
> ...


Jinks, from the moment I first got on Archery talk and read your first post I have been impressed with your Posts. Sometimes they come from somewhere far out in leftfield, sometimes they are so personal and revealing, and sometimes they bring humor to stressful threads. Through them all, I have never felt anything but entertained because of your "wear your heart on your sleeve" persona. Sometimes people say things without giving a lot of thought to the wording or, worse yet, because of perceived slights. I've never met you, but would like to some day. I have met Dwayne and you two would probably hit it off well in person. Just saying. I , along with most, follow your archery journey and empathize with your struggles but never once have I looked down on your shooting ability, and I am positive that Dwayne never would either if truth be known.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sad indeed!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Jinks, from the moment I first got on Archery talk and read your first post I have been impressed with your Posts. Sometimes they come from somewhere far out in leftfield, sometimes they are so personal and revealing, and sometimes they bring humor to stressful threads. Through them all, I have never felt anything but entertained because of your "wear your heart on your sleeve" persona. Sometimes people say things without giving a lot of thought to the wording or, worse yet, because of perceived slights. I've never met you, but would like to some day. I have met Dwayne and you two would probably hit it off well in person. Just saying. I , along with most, follow your archery journey and empathize with your struggles but never once have I looked down on your shooting ability, and I am positive that Dwayne never would either if truth be known.


Ben?....thank you...I know you're right about Dwayne....and in the spirit of the spirit and the truth behind these Easter Holidays?...forgiven...on my side anyways.

We have an acronym in the 12 step room for "Ego"...we call it "Easing God Out"....and it's never a good thing. 

I have a God that loves me so much he gave his only Son's blood to wash away my sins...and proved to the world that even death could be conquered.

Leastways that's what I try to remind my children, friends and loved ones of this time of year....

cause it sure beats heck out of trying to convince them that a 6' rabbit named Peter swung by and dropped them all off a basket of candy! :laugh:

there...I feel better now...thanks again and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

itbeso said:


> Jinks, from the moment I first got on Archery talk and read your first post I have been impressed with your Posts. Sometimes they come from somewhere far out in leftfield, sometimes they are so personal and revealing, and sometimes they bring humor to stressful threads. Through them all, I have never felt anything but entertained because of your "wear your heart on your sleeve" persona. Sometimes people say things without giving a lot of thought to the wording or, worse yet, because of perceived slights. I've never met you, but would like to some day. I have met Dwayne and you two would probably hit it off well in person. Just saying. I , along with most, follow your archery journey and empathize with your struggles but never once have I looked down on your shooting ability, and I am positive that Dwayne never would either if truth be known.


Ben that was a hell of a nice post and made me smile  

Take it easy guys I can understand both sides of the coin but in the end we are all just watching arrows fly


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I could apply your first statement to the type of person you mention in the second. Even I would advise such an individual that it might be time to try something different.
> But to make a blanket statement as your first one covers lots of territory including very young beginners and I have seen the result of turning shooting into a chore instead of a fun activity. I just watch a little while and then start introducing ideas as they seem ready for them. That's usually within the first hour Grant, not five years.


Perhaps this is where we differ. I actually teach both raw beginners and archers who have been shooting a while but not progressing, I don't work with any kids but my own. I have had VERY good success using EXACTLY the same approach for everyone. Unless there are some sort of physical definiciencies that we have to adjust for then everyone shoots to same. There is no GAP profile, there is no individual approach, everyone travels down the same easy to follow path.
Funny enough the archers who I've worked with have all shot pretty well after just a couple of weeks, certainly not the weeks and years that people posting here talk about (especially the "instinctive" ones). 

Unlike certain elitists on here I don't believe that you need much natural ability to be an above average shot. You just need to be shown the right techniques and practice them often.

So give me the guy who is willing to grind away 2 hours a day, 5 days a week. I'll take him over someone who isn't willing to put in the time, no matter how good their natural ability is.

I've noticed one really consistent thing online:
Elitists are always emphasizing how HARD it is to do what they do and how much natural ability it takes.
Whereas people who actually perform at an elite level (not just in their yard) are always emphasizing how EASY it is to become good.

-Grant


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I've noticed one really consistent thing online:
> Elitists are always emphasizing how HARD it is to do what they do and how much natural ability it takes.
> Whereas people who actually perform at an elite level (not just in their yard) are always emphasizing how EASY it is to become good.
> 
> -Grant


Out of 12 some odd pages, that's finally the answer in a nutshell! 

If anyone can't "get it", then it has to be for a select few. To tell anyone such a notion is the epitome of elitism.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> Perhaps this is where we differ. I actually teach both raw beginners and archers who have been shooting a while but not progressing, I don't work with any kids but my own. I have had VERY good success using EXACTLY the same approach for everyone. Unless there are some sort of physical definiciencies that we have to adjust for then everyone shoots to same. There is no GAP profile, there is no individual approach, everyone travels down the same easy to follow path.
> Funny enough the archers who I've worked with have all shot pretty well after just a couple of weeks, certainly not the weeks and years that people posting here talk about (especially the "instinctive" ones).
> 
> Unlike certain elitists on here I don't believe that you need much natural ability to be an above average shot. You just need to be shown the right techniques and practice them often.
> ...



Poor Grant, has to make up stuff that was not said to try and make his point. Put as much effort into keeping up with the actual conversation as you do making something out of nothing.
But, I will address one of your points. We use different techniques to arrive at the same place, not hard to understand at all. The objective, for me, is to develop an interest in archery for kids when I get the chance and I have found that kids respond to a fun activity more than an overly complicated one. Not hard to understand, simple.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Sanford said:


> Out of 12 some odd pages, that's finally the answer in a nutshell!
> 
> If anyone can't "get it", then it has to be for a select few. To tell anyone such a notion is the epitome of elitism.



The good part is that most people can 'get it', it's those who can't who spend their time fighting the whole simple idea. Over the past few years I have been able to identify the parties involved in the forum on a regular basis, who have a hard time with simple things. That's not as many as one might be led to believe, due to the fact that these people put so much effort into showing their ignorance. Everyone else is just fine and have no problem understanding simple things. Of course we know that some people can complicate the simple process of falling off a log. And, I suppose that's ok too, as long as one doesn't put a lot of effort into making it public knowledge.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Can someone summarize this thread? I would like to catch up but my ADHD is preventing me from getting through the previous 12 pages. Mind you this post is not yet in the same league as Archery Shoes over on the FITA forum http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=601182&highlight=archery+shoes.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Can someone summarize this thread? I would like to catch up but my ADHD is preventing me from getting through the previous 12 pages. Mind you this post is not yet in the same league as Archery Shoes over on the FITA forum http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=601182&highlight=archery+shoes.


He said, someone else said, then "they" said, then someones feelings got hurt, they then hurt someone elses feelings, then there were posts to try to show that most everyones intention are good, and now there are just a few good people trying to get in the last word. End of summary.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Can someone summarize this thread? I would like to catch up but my ADHD is preventing me from getting through the previous 12 pages. Mind you this post is not yet in the same league as Archery Shoes over on the FITA forum http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=601182&highlight=archery+shoes.


Experienced archers who use a well defined aiming system that they have proven to themselves as the most effective are elitist for offering this opinion to new archers rather than just letting them mess around for years to (perhaps) figure it out themselves.
Archers who compete successfully are elitist because they are motivated by improving their accuracy instead of being satisfied with shooting pie-plate sized targets in their back yard.
Archers who use techniques published in any form of FITA manual are elitist.
Anyone who has ever shot a paper target and recorded the score is elitist because that has nothing to do with hunting.
Anyone who teaches new archers without tailoring the program of instruction to fit every detail of their students life but instead follow a simple approach that works for 99.9999% of new archers are elitist.
Archers may be arbitrarily ruled as elitist by the Archery Elitism Enforcement Board (AEEB), which is composed of Black Wolf and some other people who agree with him but haven't posted.

Archers MAY NOT be considered elitist if they continually ram their opinion on the sanctity of the individual's Goals, Abilities and Personality down everyone's throat so long as they finish their post with a thumbs-up and smiley.

That pretty much sums it up.

-Grant


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Experienced archers who use a well defined aiming system that they have proven to themselves as the most effective are elitist for offering this opinion to new archers rather than just letting them mess around for years to (perhaps) figure it out themselves.
> Archers who compete successfully are elitist because they are motivated by improving their accuracy instead of being satisfied with shooting pie-plate sized targets in their back yard.
> Archers who use techniques published in any form of FITA manual are elitist.
> Anyone who has ever shot a paper target and recorded the score is elitist because that has nothing to do with hunting.
> ...


Another summary, with a bite!:thumbs_up:wink:


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Okay, so despite my ADHD, I read it all. Not every word of every post, but most of it. In one sitting. As I read along I kept going back to my posts and how they may have been perceived. I try really hard to avoid unnecessary controversy but I recognize that I have a point of view. I have worked very hard in an attempt to develop a certain form. It has been a long, hard, process for me. That journey is the context for the opinions that I offer. I am a light bow to learn advocate. That is not popular with all folks. It is easy to sound elitist when you are not sitting across the table from the person you are talking to. It takes too long to acknowledge that you may have been wrong. By that time 3 or 4 additional posts have been added. We need to feel comfortable challenging ideas, but doing it in a constructive way. That is how we grow our knowledge base and move the sport forward. I have read the previous 11 pages and I have learned from it. Something about myself, and I hope that I can use this to become a better contributor to the archery community. I challenge folks to start from the top and read this thread with a bit of introspection. We will all be better for it.


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## ScepticalScotty (Jun 25, 2010)

I was an archer 1979-1985 entirely self taught, which is quite odd as being a voracious reader you would think I would have at least read a book about it! Barebow compound, made my own arrows, and did some target shooting and a lot of rough shooting in the bush. 

I was TERRIBLE. I could not hit even close to the same place 3 times in a row and this was at distances less than 30 metres. 

This year I joined a club and came back to the sport, and under the gentle guidance of the senior archers at the club, I am already WAY better in 5 weeks than I was after 5 years in the old days. Still shoot barebow compound, though I have bought arrows now, but the results are so much better for a few weeks guidance.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> We use different techniques to arrive at the same place, not hard to understand at all. The objective, for me, is to develop an interest in archery for kids when I get the chance and I have found that kids respond to a fun activity more than an overly complicated one. Not hard to understand, simple.


Lack of fun!! Again, you need to get out and see some of these kids' programs!

Look, from a hands on perspective, you can find two very distinct kids in archery.

One is the hunter and dad learning at the range or kid having fun shooting. Get this kid alone with his dad or with his buddies at the range and fun abounds, that is, unless the kid has one of those overbearing parents who berate the heck out him for his performance. 

Get this kid in a range with a JOAD bowhunter kid shooting there, and the fun at the target is like night and day. The look on home-grown kid's face is priceless. The fun for one just automatically leaves the room.

Now, I'm not sure what an over or under complicated method is, but it would be no different in any sport where some team up and get formal training methods and some play in the backyard. 

Again, kids are taught non-sight, bowhunter, sighted, compound, recurve..... so, not sure what's being left out anyway. They have fun shoots, serious shoots, and buddy shoots.... all the while, having fun learning archery and learning to be accurate.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> Experienced archers who use a well defined aiming system that they have proven to themselves as the most effective are elitist for offering this opinion to new archers rather than just letting them mess around for years to (perhaps) figure it out themselves.
> Archers who compete successfully are elitist because they are motivated by improving their accuracy instead of being satisfied with shooting pie-plate sized targets in their back yard.
> Archers who use techniques published in any form of FITA manual are elitist.
> Anyone who has ever shot a paper target and recorded the score is elitist because that has nothing to do with hunting.
> ...



I will not take the time to address all the elitist comments in this post, mainly because everyone here has learned to consider the source. 
But this one is too good to pass up, 'being satisfied with shooting pie plate sized targets in their back yard'. :set1_rolf2:LOL, that's a good one little buddy, even for you. Now, I have never seen a pie plate sized pinecone, but if you have some I will make the trip and we can shoot them in your back yard.  
You see Mr. Grant, that's an example of the sly put downs that you always, without fail, manage to slip in when you post on the subject of different shooting methods from your own. Usually that kind of attitude is part of a complex due to ones lack of understanding about something. 
Here's to ya little buddy.:darkbeer:


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Can someone summarize this thread? I would like to catch up but my ADHD is preventing me from getting through the previous 12 pages. Mind you this post is not yet in the same league as Archery Shoes over on the FITA forum http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=601182&highlight=archery+shoes.


Someone should tell them that some of the most proficient and skilled master Arab archers had it established in the 1500's that shooting long distances while sitting down cross legged was proven to be the most stable firing method. Archery shoes....you've got to be kidding me.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I will not take the time to address all the elitist comments in this post, mainly because everyone here has learned to consider the source.
> But this one is too good to pass up, 'being satisfied with shooting pie plate sized targets in their back yard'. :set1_rolf2:LOL, that's a good one little buddy, even for you. Now, I have never seen a pie plate sized pinecone, but if you have some I will make the trip and we can shoot them in your back yard.
> You see Mr. Grant, that's an example of the sly put downs that you always, without fail, manage to slip in when you post on the subject of different shooting methods from your own. Usually that kind of attitude is part of a complex due to ones lack of understanding about something.
> Here's to ya little buddy.:darkbeer:


So Forest would it be "elitest" if we had a "club" where the only way you could be a member is if you shot a certain score. It takes dedication and work to reach that level of accuracy right???

Matt


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> So Forest would it be "elitest" if we had a "club" where the only way you could be a member is if you shot a certain score. It takes dedication and work to reach that level of accuracy right???
> 
> Matt


No, I don't think it would because a club can have any requirements it wants in order to be a member. And, yes it does take dedication to reach the level that you are talking about. It also takes a high level of dedication to become a competent instinctive shooter and there are many people who can shoot very well using that method. But, when people like Grant sieze any opportunity to jack a thread making fun of instinctive shooting, it gets old. He knows that and possible likes the negative attention it gets him. There's a name for that ya know.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Grant that put you on the list with me. Oh the irony. 
Dan


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Arrowzen said:


> Someone should tell them that some of the most proficient and skilled master Arab archers had it established in the 1500's that shooting long distances while sitting down cross legged was proven to be the most stable firing method. *Archery shoes....you've got to be kidding me.*


Yep...it actually get's *"That Bad"*...and is the result of a psychosis which I battle with as a recovering addict which is an O.C.D. (Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder) based disease...where once we find something we like?...we don't stop until we're tore up from the floor up and our butts are ripped out the frame! :laugh:

It's also why I can not own an ILF riser....if I did?...I'd be addicted to the latest greatest limbs...bolt on gizmo's?...everyone and the best currently available...just like my drugs...only the best....the skies the limit....and there's no such thing as "High Enough". :laugh:

speaking of which....I wonder if they make those archery shoes in a "Platforms" version? :laugh:

I mean...the higher you are?....has got to interpret into a gravity advantage with an arrow of less arch therefore assimilating a flatter shooting flight path....right?...I mean if you're standing on top of the empire state building with a 20yd shot?....how much "arch" does the arrow actually see? :laugh:

see what I mean vern?...which is why I shoot and love a 40 year old herters recurve I got out of the classifieds...complete with twisted limbs for $200! :laugh:

and I snap shoot...so I don't get up in my head and obsess picking apart my own form....and I aim instinctively because when I snap shoot?...there just isn't enough time to get the frame of that sight picture perfectly square on the wall! :laugh:

yet some folks insist..."There's No Difference Between Us" :chortle:

claiming..."We're All Wired The Same" 

and if we are?...can I see a show of hands of who is buying archery shoes off of amazon right now? :laugh:

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> No, I don't think it would because a club can have any requirements it wants in order to be a member. And, yes it does take dedication to reach the level that you are talking about. It also takes a high level of dedication to become a competent instinctive shooter and there are many people who can shoot very well using that method. But, when people like Grant sieze any opportunity to jack a thread making fun of instinctive shooting, it gets old. He knows that and possible likes the negative attention it gets him. There's a name for that ya know.


Smart man ;-)


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Smart man ;-)



LOOK IT UP, POTTER! :jeez: But, you could still be partially right, I bet there are lots of 'smart men' who seek negative attention. I think there's one in Russia that lots of folks think is pretty smart, he's getting plenty of negative attention.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOOK IT UP, POTTER! :jeez: But, you could still be partially right, I bet there are lots of 'smart men' who seek negative attention. I think there's one in Russia that lots of folks think is pretty smart, he's getting plenty of negative attention.


I was calling you a smart man - I truly don't care how someone aims unless they start complaining about missing or wounding game - if that's the case then they should really stop and think about things.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> I truly don't care how someone aims unless they start complaining about missing or wounding game - if that's the case then they should really stop and think about things.


We should get this printed on bumper stickers and T Shirts ...
It would make archery forums a much better place ... Somewhere we could talk , learn and share our experiences about hunting, tourneys, gear and stump shooting , techniques .....


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Most of the time, topics start out as intended, info being passed along in order to help. If it goes more than 2 pages it becomes "everyone is wrong but me". In the words of Metallica, "Sad But True". Speck


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## VA. Bowbender (Mar 31, 2006)

Speck1 said:


> Most of the time, topics start out as intended, info being passed along in order to help. If it goes more than 2 pages it becomes "everyone is wrong but me". In the words of Metallica, "Sad But True". Speck


I gave up after page 3...and I'm the OP. Whewww what a nightmare.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

VA. Bowbender said:


> I gave up after page 3...and I'm the OP. Whewww what a nightmare.


Sorry Bowbender, I'm not going to give you a pass on this one . There have been many threads on this subject and all you would have had to do was research them to get everyones opinion. My gut feeling is that you knew what a hornets nest you were going to stir up and you just sat back and had your own celebration. JMHO.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Sorry Bowbender, I'm not going to give you a pass on this one . There have been many threads on this subject and all you would have had to do was research them to get everyones opinion. My gut feeling is that you knew what a hornets nest you were going to stir up and you just sat back and had your own celebration. JMHO.


now that?....that right there?....yep...that changes everything...and from a member that's been here only a year less than Ben?...so Ol'e Ben's been watching your posts for 2 years shy of a decade?....hmmmm...okay.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Yep...it actually get's *"That Bad"*...and is the result of a psychosis which I battle with as a recovering addict which is an O.C.D. (Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder) based disease...where once we find something we like?...we don't stop until we're tore up from the floor up and our butts are ripped out the frame! :laugh:
> 
> It's also why I can not own an ILF riser....if I did?...I'd be addicted to the latest greatest limbs...bolt on gizmo's?...everyone and the best currently available...just like my drugs...only the best....the skies the limit....and there's no such thing as "High Enough". :laugh:
> 
> L8R, Bill. :cool2:


My OCD is accuracy, it don't cost any money. In some ways the ILF saves you money, you can have one riser and several sets of limbs for particular tasks like Indoors or Form work etc, ILF limbs tend to be very good value for money as even the low end ones tend to be of a very good standard.

Bill didn't you already go down the ILF route, you're OCD seems more about not being able to keep a bow for more than 12 months. Since I started Recurve I've had a few bows but it's mostly about finding what suits me and the shooting divs, now I've found a style I'm enjoying I wont be buying any bows for a few years now.

My best competition day yesterday with Stringwalking, I out shot the Compounds, the new bow aiming style seems to be coming together nicely. It was non standard round 10 kill and 5 wound with 3 moving targets (35y max) I shot 365 on 40 targets, Compound was 350, I'm guessing those moving targets was a problem for them. I had two small targets from a tower and the angle was so steep had to shot draw the bow, it was more poke and hope shots. What was enjoyable was the fact I was shooting controlled with strong shots, it's been a while since my shooting felt so relaxed.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> now that?....that right there?....yep...that changes everything...and from a member that's been here only a year less than Ben?...so Ol'e Ben's been watching your posts for 2 years shy of a decade?....hmmmm...okay.


Jinks, remember in a previous post that I stated that I enjoyed all your posts but some of them come from far left field.:teeth: I have no idea what in the heck you just said.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

My best competition day yesterday with Stringwalking, I out shot the Compounds, the new bow aiming style seems to be coming together nicely. It was non standard round 10 kill and 5 wound with 3 moving targets (35y max) I shot 365 on 40 targets, Compound was 350.


Steve, your compound shooters must really suck!!!!

If we only had a 35yd max our compound shooters would have definitely been even most of them would have been up..

Jus saying...



Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Just as with most threads like this...the majority of this is caused by poor assumptions, blatant twisting of words and/or just simple miscommunication.

Ray :shade:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just as with most threads like this...the majority of this is caused by poor assumptions, blatant twisting of words and/or just simple miscommunication.
> 
> Ray :shade:


You are 100% correct Ray. :thumbs_up

Now, work on your comprehension issues and all will be well.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Big Country said:


> You are 100% correct Ray. :thumbs_up
> 
> Now, work on your comprehension issues and all will be well.


LOL :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

benofthehood said:


> We should get this printed on bumper stickers and T Shirts ...
> It would make archery forums a much better place ... Somewhere we could talk , learn and share our experiences about hunting, tourneys, gear and stump shooting , techniques .....


Ben, Ben, Ben......we both know that kind of discussion takes place on one forum...and it ain't this one!!!:darkbeer:ukey::wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

fotoguy said:


> Ben, Ben, Ben......we both know that kind of discussion takes place on one forum...and it ain't this one!!!:darkbeer:ukey::wink:



Please tell us which one it is, I would like to lurk there and wait for some topic to come up that I would like to stick my nose in.
This one is like a train wreck, lots of people hate it but they just can't keep from looking.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Please tell us which one it is, I would like to lurk there and wait for some topic to come up that I would like to stick my nose in.
> This one is like a train wreck, lots of people hate it but they just can't keep from looking.


It's like "predator bait" Forest...the more rancid it becomes?... :laugh:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> It's like "predator bait" Forest...the more rancid it becomes?... :laugh:



Have you noticed it too? Some who are not regular contributors but seem to be always watching. Maybe they put the word out on those civilized forums like 'hey guys, go check out AT, it's really getting juicy over there'. LOL, funny thing is the number of people who come here saying how stiff lipped those wonderful forums are. Free speech doesn't seem to be so free if you don't scratch the right peoples backs.


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## Desertlifter (Jul 10, 2012)

Arcus said:


> A good start might be to stop referring to compound bows as having training wheels.


After wading through this thread, I find an adequate - yea any - response to this absent or lacking.

Please do not refer to compound bows as having training wheels. This implies that I should be better with them instead of sucking equally with either piece of equipment. That not being the case, either I suck even worse, or I suck even worse.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Have you noticed it too? Some who are not regular contributors but seem to be always watching. Maybe they put the word out on those civilized forums like 'hey guys, go check out AT, it's really getting juicy over there'. LOL, funny thing is the number of people who come here saying how stiff lipped those wonderful forums are. Free speech doesn't seem to be so free if you don't scratch the right peoples backs.


Some people who comment on threads such as this one have been around here a lot longer than you Forest. And some of those people easily see how you and a small handful of others that frequent this place are always watching for the opportunity to be righteously indignant over any erroneously perceived slight.

The bottom line is that you are not happy unless you are offended by someone or something, and if you have to manufacture a slight out of a simple statement of fact…….you are fine with that. Then once a couple of the usual characters jump on your bandwagon, you are full steam ahead at that point.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> My best competition day yesterday with Stringwalking, I out shot the Compounds, the new bow aiming style seems to be coming together nicely. It was non standard round 10 kill and 5 wound with 3 moving targets (35y max) I shot 365 on 40 targets, Compound was 350.
> 
> 
> Steve, your compound shooters must really suck!!!!
> ...


I guess yes, he was shooting hunting rig with pins but should have smoked that course, Finnish Bowhunters came to tourney last Summer with hunting setups and only shot 11,s, they were good

I was pleased with the day, slow start with no warm up and shot two 5,s then clicked in, with those first two I felt I only made 4 less than perfect Form shots and one of shot where I used wrong crawl (changed limbs and crawls were different by 5y) I was pleased with the day because I felt so relaxed and controlled, lots of room for improvement but I see it coming very quickly now

courses can be tricky, no open lanes, tight shots and angles to shoot


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Big Country said:


> Some people who comment on threads such as this one have been around here a lot longer than you Forest. And some of those people easily see how you and a small handful of others that frequent this place are always watching for the opportunity to be righteously indignant over any erroneously perceived slight.
> 
> The bottom line is that you are not happy unless you are offended by someone or something, and if you have to manufacture a slight out of a simple statement of fact…….you are fine with that. Then once a couple of the usual characters jump on your bandwagon, you are full steam ahead at that point.




Thanks for the enlightenment. I feel much better. :banana: 
I don't want to argue with you but, I,m not sure it's really accurate based on your previously demonstrated comprehension skills.


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## Dropwinger (Apr 26, 2011)

I just tried to read this. I really tried, but gee whiz, some of you guys sound like Ted "Unabomber" Kaczynski after an overdose of PCP.:mg:


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