# Ask Me Anything - James Ball NFAA Professional



## baller

Hey everyone! Figured it's a good time to start another ask me anything 

Little about me, shooting for 27 years, pro for 2. Have shot compound and Olympic Recurve in my career. Recent career highlights include 6th place at the 2021 Rushmore Rumble and appearing in the Vegas shootoff in 2020, finishing 17th.

Shoot me some questions!!!!


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## ImpactDoc

@baller Thank you for volunteering to answer questions, if you prefer PM let me know; but, I figured others may benefit from this information. For indoor sports 5 spot or 3 spot competitions at 20 yards, I see most pros use the biggest arrows possible to break lines which is what I have made (triple X GTs, with the big fletches and fairly hefty weights that tune great in both of my bows). I was watching though that in some of the competitions (Rushmore Rumble or the NFAA indoor finals... I believe this year ), when inside out scoring starts Toja and I think a couple of other people switched from big arrows to smaller diameter arrows when going inside out (I believe Toja brought a completely separate setup but she was the only one that I saw did this). For those guys/girls whom switch to smaller diameter arrows when inside out scoring starts and stick with the same bow, do they/you tend to match the arrow weight of the larger arrows so the flight and point of impact is unchanged? Or does this even matter as long as they have similar POI? I suppose if you test POI before the tournament then you can just dial the difference in elevation between the two arrows. I was just wondering though since I see people doing this.

I know others just start with medium to even smaller sized arrows from the beginning and use those to the end instead of switching arrows...but, I'm not that good yet.

Also what is the average weight arrows many pros use (I know the answer usually is whatever bare shaft tunes best for your setup); but, I read on forums and even heard pros on FB/YouTube say they use 200-250 grains up front for their indoor targets weights. I think Tim Gillingham was the only one I came across so far that uses barely any weight up front.

Thank you again for volunteering your time!


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## baller

Indoors I 95% of the time will use my go to setup of a 29-30” triple x pro with 200 grains up front and at least a 3” vane. this is my Vegas arrow, and I use it for any game where I have to hit the baby X. When I have the opportunity to shoot USA archery there’s an arrow diameter max of 23/63 so for that I run a 29” Nine.3 Max Pro with 180 grains in the front.

For 5-spot instead of having to hit a baby x we have to be inside out, little different game. The trend lately has been to switch to a smaller arrow for that shoot off. Most pros that decide to do this have either gone with a swappable rest with a different rest body tuned for each shaft, or they have shot both arrows and know what needs to be done to make the small arrow shoot. We usually have a chance to sight in the small arrows between the last end and the start of the shoot off.

This year I didn't have enough time to get two arrows set up so I decided to run my 23s for the whole thing including the shoot off if I would have made it (missed one x).


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## Butcher BBQ

Hello James been several months seeing you in OK. My question is for indoors. I am running the 2712's with 250 up front cut to 30 1/2 inches. I started with 300 tips, I have been shooting the 250's with great results. I have been thinking of trying 225 tips. Are you of the school of thought that just a little faster/flatter shot will help with drops out the bottom of the center or what? When I switched I did loose the lower arrows. But wondering how far I can push it and keep great tuned arrows. Any thoughts on this would be helpful.


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## baller

Hey Dave!

A lot depends on draw length, draw weight, and the bow you're shooting. On my Prevail a few seasons ago I was at 30" with 225-250 up front with great results. On my TRX40 I was at 29" with 200-225 with great results. On my Supra XL earlier this year I had good results at 29 with 250 up front. All of these bows were at 29.99" DL with 59# DW but each bow wanted something different. 

I do think that to some point the faster arrow out of the bow gives you less time to negatively influence the arrow. I shot some of my best indoor scores last summer at the national roundup during the pro indoor nationals round....with my 3D arrows a 410 grain X-Cutter. A lot has to do with how the cam hits the arrow at the shot....is it all at once (lighter point) or is it in the middle (mid weight) or is it at the end of the stroke right before the nock leaves the string (heavier point).

I think you're in the right ball park but with your longer draw length and arrow length even if you were to shoot lower poundage I'd be willing to bet the 225s would be worth the test. At 30.5" I wouldn't go much below the 225 mark mainly because of FOC, the point will lose the ability to drive the arrow effectively even at 20y, you'll see your groups opening back up again. 

I test arrows in batches....for instance if I know I'm close on length and point weight, I'll take 6 arrows the same length, and run 3 with one point and 3 with the other point and shoot two Vegas games top and bottom. I pay attention to differences in feel and in shot dispersion. Now this test may take several days to several weeks, or it may only take one game to define a clear winner....but you will see a clear winner.


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## Butcher BBQ

Thanks, I did order some 225 thinking that testing them is always a good thing. I do appreciate your input and the way explained why you do what you do.


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## baller

Let's blow the dust off this thread. With indoor season coming up what questions do you have about setups, training, mental game, bow builts, arrow builds....


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## 10point92

I started training last week ( I'm new to indoor) and shooting a Vegas target with Lancaster archery scoring my goal is to shoot a 620 with bow hunter setup. So I started at 5 yards and and I shot a 30x round then I stepped back to 6 yards and shot another 30x round and I'm back to 12 yards now. If miss an X I start over and 12 yards has proved to be challenging for me.. Do you suggest training like this or should I just shoot at 20 yards until I am shooting good at it


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## baller

I've heard of this type of training before. There's two schools of thought here. One is if you can do it at this distance then you can do it at that distance. Well, yes and no. Honestly if you're not fighting target panic, and are completely new to indoor starting at maybe 10 yards works well until you hit either the maximum score or your own personal goal. Unfortunately in my opinion nothing you see or feel at 10 yards, or 12 or 15, translates to what you see and feel and need to do at 20. The only thing that I have personally found in my training and in teaching others is 20 is it's own animal indoors...you have to shoot at 20 to master it. Do I shoot from 10 yards every now and then? Absolutely, mostly for a mental or form reboot, usually with a super small arrow with the intention of shooting the x-ring inside out. 

My school of thought and the way I teach is if you can shoot 300 at 10 yards you can shoot 295+ at 20. If you can shoot 295+ at 20 yards you have the physical game to shoot 300. The only way to do that is shoot at 20. Give yourself a session or two to acclimate to the distance, then keep track of scores for at least 10 games (across several sessions) to establish an average. Make notes of your 'standard' miss, and work to correct that miss. EXPECT to shoot your average....INTEND to shoot better than your average....TRAIN to get there. No one shoots 30x at 20 yards in their first day, or first week....possibly in a month though its very rare. 

Even pros miss. It's what you do with that miss that will set you apart from others. Set yourself reasonable goals, like increasing your average 2 points a week or something like that....make the goals attainable and work to achieve them. Each step you take will lead to your ultimate goal of being competitive at the indoor game.


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## 10point92

baller said:


> I've heard of this type of training before. There's two schools of thought here. One is if you can do it at this distance then you can do it at that distance. Well, yes and no. Honestly if you're not fighting target panic, and are completely new to indoor starting at maybe 10 yards works well until you hit either the maximum score or your own personal goal. Unfortunately in my opinion nothing you see or feel at 10 yards, or 12 or 15, translates to what you see and feel and need to do at 20. The only thing that I have personally found in my training and in teaching others is 20 is it's own animal indoors...you have to shoot at 20 to master it. Do I shoot from 10 yards every now and then? Absolutely, mostly for a mental or form reboot, usually with a super small arrow with the intention of shooting the x-ring inside out.
> 
> My school of thought and the way I teach is if you can shoot 300 at 10 yards you can shoot 295+ at 20. If you can shoot 295+ at 20 yards you have the physical game to shoot 300. The only way to do that is shoot at 20. Give yourself a session or two to acclimate to the distance, then keep track of scores for at least 10 games (across several sessions) to establish an average. Make notes of your 'standard' miss, and work to correct that miss. EXPECT to shoot your average....INTEND to shoot better than your average....TRAIN to get there. No one shoots 30x at 20 yards in their first day, or first week....possibly in a month though its very rare.
> 
> Even pros miss. It's what you do with that miss that will set you apart from others. Set yourself reasonable goals, like increasing your average 2 points a week or something like that....make the goals attainable and work to achieve them. Each step you take will lead to your ultimate goal of being competitive at the indoor game.


 Thank you very much this helped alot!


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## burls

Can a shooter in the bowhunter class at vegas shoot a single pin sight as long as he doesnt move it?


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## baller

From what I’m reading in the nfaa rules a single pin can be used in a housing with no lens but can’t be moved once scoring has begun.

nfaa


https://323d2f80-de38-488e-8ac3-d830108de68b.filesusr.com/ugd/ed5f02_1d4cf94e0b4d4b2099999d90454cbfe6.pdf



Vegas shoot rules






Rules | The Vegas Shoot







www.thevegasshoot.com


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## burls

ty


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## xdr

First, I really appreciate the insights you are sharing here. Thank you.

A couple of questions: 
1. what exactly is inside out scoring? I am not familiar with the term (also new to target archery).

2. can you lay out or describe your recommended weekly training regime. 

thanks,
x


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## baller

xdr said:


> First, I really appreciate the insights you are sharing here. Thank you.
> 
> A couple of questions:
> 1. what exactly is inside out scoring? I am not familiar with the term (also new to target archery).
> 
> 2. can you lay out or describe your recommended weekly training regime.
> 
> thanks,
> x


Inside out scoring means that to get the higher score the arrow has to be completely inside the scoring ring without touching the line at all. In regular scoring the line is part of the higher value scoring ring, so for the 10 ring, all of the line to the outside edge counts as a 10. For inside-out scoring, the line no longer counts as the higher value. We see inside out scoring more often at Indoor Nationals on the 5-spot face. During the Vegas Shoot Off, we score where only the X-ring counts as 10, the rest of the yellow is 9 in that case.

I have several training modes that I go through in each season and in each sub-season. The idea behind the different routines that I do is to reach peak overall performance at the right time. Coming off my off-season I am moving into my physical preparation cycle as I don't have any major events planned for several months. My main focus in this case is volume. I have found for me that nothing builds stamina and shooting strength better than shooting....a lot. I average around 150-200 arrows per session, still shooting my normal execution and not in a hurry, but I'm not working on anything specific, just getting arrows out of the bow. I'll do that for about 2 weeks to restore my physical shooting shape. A lot of times while I'm in this phase I'll test new gear or get new strings on the bows and get them shot in. 

My next phase is dialing in my equipment. In this phase I may only shoot 30-90 arrows in a session, I'm working on getting my timing, draw length, holding weight, bar setup etc all back to exactly where I want them after off-season maintenance or setting up a new rig. I pay less attention to bow specs and more attention to hold and float, and make adjustments as needed to get the best sight picture I can get. This usually takes me about a week.

Phase 3 is the beginning of my mental prep. Up to this point I've been scoring arrows, but haven't been "shooting for score". Two totally different ball games. When I'm shooting for score I'm not working on anything, I'm trying to shoot my highest score possible. During phase 3 my practice is normally 6 arrows from a cold start and straight into scoring 60 arrows. I'll make notes for things to work on or fix but I won't do anything until my scoring rounds are complete, similar to a tournament round unless something breaks on your bow, you likely are only focused on the round at hand. Once my scoring rounds are done, if I have time left in my session I work on whatever needs fixing. 

Phase 4 is my maintenance phase. It's a combination of the first 3 phases, and usually is about 60-90 arrows a session. 6 arrows cold start and score 30, then pick one thing to work on the rest of the session, whatever that one thing ends up being. I stay in this phase between events in the same season (indoor season for instance). One thing I mix in during this phase is more focused mental practice, like a cold start 30 arrow round no practice or some video work or one-arrow rounds. 

My 'tournament week' phase is where I ramp up the intensity of my shooting focus so scoring. About 7-10 days before the event I'll start with 30-60 scoring arrows, ramping up to about 90-120 arrows the day before my travel day. I'm in tournament mode, on a clock with timed breaks between ends and something to break my focus on the game so I have to re-establish that focus when I go to the line. This week of prep I have found important to help me get my game face on from end to end and be 100% in the moment on each arrow. 

Clear as mud, right? Anyhow I hope this helps you out a bit. Keep in mind, this routine is coming from a shooter that is in a 'can't miss' environment every time he shoots, it may not be what works for you. Even if you cut this routine in half for time and volume, it will show you what works best for you and you can build from there.


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## xdr

James,
This is very helpful and I can see the progression that you have designed in to the plan. I think I’ve been lax on building strength and stamina which is hindering me when the season starts. Time for some changes…

thanks for sharing this!

x


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## Butcher BBQ

James thanks for sharing, I hope to see you this year on a range.


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## 2Js

Are you still answering questions? What the key to holding steady. I just started shooting dots again,been many years. I noticed that I move all over the place. Most of time I hit in middle but there’s a different between shooting well and scoring well. Thanks 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## baller

2Js said:


> Are you still answering questions? What the key to holding steady. I just started shooting dots again,been many years. I noticed that I move all over the place. Most of time I hit in middle but there’s a different between shooting well and scoring well. Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Draw length is key! Narrowing down your draw length is one of the most important variables to holding steady and getting your true potential out of your setup. Of all the variables, holding weight, bar setup and balance, cam timing, release settings etc, draw length is probably the one I spend the most time on getting as close to perfect as possible. Making even the smallest change, think 1/16”, can make all the difference in the world. Once you find your sweet spot with the particular bow your shooting the rest of the variables will fall in line much easier and will make things even more stable for you.


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## coastiehunter2

Nice job at the Iowa pro am! Not sure if your a hinge or button shooter? But if you are a hinge shooter what is your method of activation? And at full draw what are you thinking about in those high stress shots? Thanks and again congrats on such good shooting against the best in the world!!


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## baller

coastiehunter2 said:


> Nice job at the Iowa pro am! Not sure if your a hinge or button shooter? But if you are a hinge shooter what is your method of activation? And at full draw what are you thinking about in those high stress shots? Thanks and again congrats on such good shooting against the best in the world!!


Thank you very much, it was quite a weekend for sure. 

I am a hinge shooter, and a puller. Most of my shot is based off my training when I shot Olympic Recurve for 10 years in the middle of my career. In higher stress situations with the recurve I pulled harder, that tendency followed me back to the compound. I will draw with most of the pressure on my thumb and index, and some on the inside of my middle finger. Once at full draw, before I anchor I will pre-load my hold to about 75% of what it normally takes to hold my dot still, release still in the position it was during draw with thumb on peg. From there I anchor, set my nose position to center the peep, and drop my thumb off the peg. I keep my index finger in place as a pivot, and increase the pressure in my middle and ring fingers to rotate to my click...which is my execution starting point. Once at my click, I build my holding pressure enough to get full control of my dot, begin aiming and pull through keeping my index finger as my pivot, and increasing pressure on my middle and ring fingers. My two thoughts at this point in time, regardless of the pressure of the situation, is aim.....and pull. 

Now keep in mind, I'm not ripping through the release, I'm pulling along the line of my arrow in micro ounces, with the whole goal to keep my dot still as I am executing the shot....the faster I pull through the more my dot moves so I'm doing this process so slowly you can't see it.


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## xdr

James! Well done! 
I saw the reference above to the Iowa Pro-Am so I checked it out. That is very impressive shooting. 
It also looks like a great shoot...
x


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## coastiehunter2

Thanks for the reply back👍 Good luck the rest of the year, what Darton are you running?


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## baller

coastiehunter2 said:


> Thanks for the reply back👍 Good luck the rest of the year, what Darton are you running?


I am running the 2022 Darton E Tempest T


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## mortskee

Congrats at Iowa!


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## mortskee

James, I am a longtime bowhunter who joined an indoor league for the first time this past November. It is a 450 Vegas face. Through 10 weeks my average is 444 with my hunting bow (5 pin sight). My scores have been steady week to week +/- 4 points. What is the biggest contributor for improvement moving forward? equipment, mental/concentration, more reps, coaching? Thanks -Anders


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## baller

mortskee said:


> James, I am a longtime bowhunter who joined an indoor league for the first time this past November. It is a 450 Vegas face. Through 10 weeks my average is 444 with my hunting bow (5 pin sight). My scores have been steady week to week +/- 4 points. What is the biggest contributor for improvement moving forward? equipment, mental/concentration, more reps, coaching? Thanks -Anders


Hello Anders!

Still very good scores for a hunting setup. I talk with people all the time about building setups to be very good at one thing and ok at a few others. It's hard to give you a focus without knowing more about your shot, current setup etc, however, on the topic of tailoring gear towards a goal, the first thing I would look at is gear. Either making changes to your current rig, or perhaps a 2nd rig that is built specifically for spots. Most hunting rigs are designed for speed and mobility, two things that usually rob the most important factors of target shooting....stability and forgiveness.

A lot of factors on gear will be dictated on what class you are shooting in, but even bowhunter class rigs are mostly target bows or way closer to target bows than hunting bows. Below is my order of importance....

1. Establish goals.....without them you're throwing darts at a wall. Once you have some goals to work towards you can fine tune every thing else.
2. Get a coach. You'd be surprised what a trained eye will help you do.
3. Build your gear around achieving your goals...use your coach to help you make gear choices to align with your goals.
4. Put in the work....not just on the range but the mental work as well. I shoot several rounds a day....2-4 at the range and who knows how many shots I go through in my head...that visualization is still training.

This is a good foundation to becoming a good overall archer....once that base is established you can get more specific in your goals and training.


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## mortskee

This is extremely helpful. Thank you for the thoughtful response!


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## coastiehunter2

Can we get your set up? Stabilizer length, weight,holding weight. Pin or dot? Arrow build, release ? Hot cold or in the middle? Most pros shy away from this place so we got to use you while we got ya😁


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## baller

Indoor setup:

2022 Darton Tempest E T
30.5” draw length using #3 mods (65%)
59# peak weight holding about 19.5#
Conquest 747 30” with 14oz / 15” with 20oz
B3 exact target sight with shrewd minimag
5x lens with a .150” black dot covers about 75% of the yellow
Black Eagle PS27 300 spine 30” 200 grain point
B3 infinity pro/Ghost/Coop

Outdoor setup will be the same bow and base setup, I’ll run a .015 up pin instead of a dot, likely a 12” back bar instead of 15”, and a mix of Ximpacts, revelations and ps23s depending on the game I’m shooting.


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## Bitterflinger

You mentioned draw length and it's importance.
What is your advice for getting there?
Any processes or techniques to use?
Halon X Comp if that matters.
Thanks for all the info so far.


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## baller

Bitterflinger said:


> You mentioned draw length and it's importance.
> What is your advice for getting there?
> Any processes or techniques to use?
> Halon X Comp if that matters.
> Thanks for all the info so far.


I'll preface this part by saying that I am a puller. I run a lot of holding weight and I setup and pull fairly hard through my entire shot. This method works well for pullers and for relaxers, but what you see in your results from these changes may vary from what I see. My method is based off of linear alignment, something I learned when shooting Olympic bows. There are some pitfalls from chasing a perfectly still sight picture. Shooting a bow that is too short for you results in shooting off of muscle, which gets tired. It also varies from day to day, and while you might have a really good sight picture, shooting short usually means your body is not in alignment and will normally result in a bigger miss on a less than perfect shot.

My method is two parts. First thing I do is find the longest draw length setting on a particular bow that I can shoot, usually on this step I can barely keep against the back wall at my normal anchor position (or I'm working really hard to stay there). This tells me my absolute maximum. I say on a particular bow because bow ATA and grip angle among other things can make your draw length sweet spot change as much as a half inch or more. Back to what I was saying, I find my absolute maximum. In my experience I have found that my best compromise of sight picture and forgiveness is normally 1/8" to 1/4" shorter than my absolute max depending on the bow. During this step I am NOT using a peep sight. I am going off of the feel of the bow at anchor and don't want miss-set visual references to throw off my natural anchor point and head position.

Step 2 is where the fun begins. With the bow still at my absolute max I'll drop down 1/2" in the mod settings, and add twists to my cables evenly until I get to 1/4" from my absolute max. At that point I'll install my peep and make sure its set correctly, and shoot for a little while at that length with a neutral weight/bar setup. I'm looking for sight picture at this point, and make adjustments to my string or cables according to what I see. Every time I make an adjustment to draw length, even if it's just a half twist in my string, I check and adjust my peep.

What I'm seeing dictates what changes I make. If my sight picture is super solid through almost the whole shot but at the end it darts off in a random direction, I am short of my optimal draw length so I add a twist to each cable, check my peep and keep shooting. If see longer movements that I cannot control no matter what I do in my shot, my I am longer than my optimal draw length and I shorten my draw either with the string or equal cable twists. If my sight picture is a slow, steady, controlled float that I am comfortable with I'm in the correct zone but may need to tweak a half twist here or there. I'll shoot here for several sessions, sometimes several weeks even, still passively looking for any tendencies in sight picture or forgiveness that tells me long or short. 

One thing to keep in mind, not everyone's float is the same. My smooth controlled float may be tighter or looser than someone else's. The idea is finding a float that you are comfortable with, and can still execute a good shot, but also not pay a sever penalty for a less than perfect shot.


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## Bitterflinger

Wow, that is the best description that I have read on the subject. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I've shot for a few years and feel I am close but could use some fine tuning on draw length. This will give me a road map.
Thank you again!


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## coastiehunter2

Nice shooting James at the KC shoot! Your tearing it up👍


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## Redcap

Quick Question for you I’ve been shooting for a long long time & im able to hold pretty steady on target 
my problem is that I hold so steady that I have trouble pulling through the shot thinking that if I even move I’ll pull myself off the target. I am so struggling with this its driving me nuts. Any suggestions as to a possible fix would be greatly appreciated. 
thank you


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## baller

Redcap said:


> Quick Question for you I’ve been shooting for a long long time & im able to hold pretty steady on target
> my problem is that I hold so steady that I have trouble pulling through the shot thinking that if I even move I’ll pull myself off the target. I am so struggling with this its driving me nuts. Any suggestions as to a possible fix would be greatly appreciated.
> thank you


There's a couple things you can do to fix this. One thing to do is to pay attention to what your bow is telling you. If your sight picture is steady when you hold but moves when you start your execution stage, either your execution stage adding more than the current bow setup can handle, or the current setup needs to be adapted so that the sight picture stays solid when you execute the shot. There is a way to tune the bow to hold more and more steady as you build your shot.

Second thing to work on is the mental side of aiming a bow. Your sight picture is never going to be completely still. If it is I'd be willing to bet that when you miss the misses are quite large and tend to be from unpredictable, darty movement right at the break of the release, and go in all directions from intended target instead of having a patterned miss. Learning to look where you want your arrow to impact and allow your dot to float with some movement over that spot will help free up your execution. 

One thing i do to remind myself that I can pull and aim and let it float is aiming drills. My normal practice session is 2 hours, so a few days a week I may only shoot a total of 30 arrows, but I shoot each arrow about 4 times. As I have said before I am a hinge shooter, and I have a hinge set up for this with the moon upside down so that it cannot ever fire the shot. This allows me to aim and execute until my sight picture is breaking down, then I let down and reset and do it again. I switch releases on the 4th draw and aim and execute that shot. This has really helped free up my execution and learn to deal with the small movements in my sight picture while keeping me from getting hung up or punching. This is one of the fun parts of archery I think....we have to train the brain as much or more than we train the body.


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## EPLC

baller said:


> I'll preface this part by saying that I am a puller. I run a lot of holding weight and I setup and pull fairly hard through my entire shot. This method works well for pullers and for relaxers, but what you see in your results from these changes may vary from what I see. My method is based off of linear alignment, something I learned when shooting Olympic bows. There are some pitfalls from chasing a perfectly still sight picture. Shooting a bow that is too short for you results in shooting off of muscle, which gets tired. It also varies from day to day, and while you might have a really good sight picture, shooting short usually means your body is not in alignment and will normally result in a bigger miss on a less than perfect shot.
> 
> My method is two parts. First thing I do is find the longest draw length setting on a particular bow that I can shoot, usually on this step I can barely keep against the back wall at my normal anchor position (or I'm working really hard to stay there). This tells me my absolute maximum. I say on a particular bow because bow ATA and grip angle among other things can make your draw length sweet spot change as much as a half inch or more. Back to what I was saying, I find my absolute maximum. In my experience I have found that my best compromise of sight picture and forgiveness is normally 1/8" to 1/4" shorter than my absolute max depending on the bow. During this step I am NOT using a peep sight. I am going off of the feel of the bow at anchor and don't want miss-set visual references to throw off my natural anchor point and head position.
> 
> Step 2 is where the fun begins. With the bow still at my absolute max I'll drop down 1/2" in the mod settings, and add twists to my cables evenly until I get to 1/4" from my absolute max. At that point I'll install my peep and make sure its set correctly, and shoot for a little while at that length with a neutral weight/bar setup. I'm looking for sight picture at this point, and make adjustments to my string or cables according to what I see. Every time I make an adjustment to draw length, even if it's just a half twist in my string, I check and adjust my peep.
> 
> What I'm seeing dictates what changes I make. If my sight picture is super solid through almost the whole shot but at the end it darts off in a random direction, I am short of my optimal draw length so I add a twist to each cable, check my peep and keep shooting. If see longer movements that I cannot control no matter what I do in my shot, my I am longer than my optimal draw length and I shorten my draw either with the string or equal cable twists. If my sight picture is a slow, steady, controlled float that I am comfortable with I'm in the correct zone but may need to tweak a half twist here or there. I'll shoot here for several sessions, sometimes several weeks even, still passively looking for any tendencies in sight picture or forgiveness that tells me long or short.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, not everyone's float is the same. My smooth controlled float may be tighter or looser than someone else's. The idea is finding a float that you are comfortable with, and can still execute a good shot, but also not pay a sever penalty for a less than perfect shot.


Thank you so much for this post. I've struggled for years with a DL that was too short due to a slouching issue. Your method is the most precise I've come across in 24 years of shooting. All too many in the "your DL is too long" camp might learn some things from your post.
Question? Your starting point of "absolute maximum" has me searching but not yet convinced I've found it yet. I'm shooting a TRX38 "E" 80% mod at 28 5/8" and do not have a longer mod to play with. I was shooting 27-27 3/4" prior to this so everything feels long initially. I should add that I'm shooting better and with better form at the current DL.
Added: Also, could you describe the process when you don't have a rotating module type cam?


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## baller

EPLC said:


> Thank you so much for this post. I've struggled for years with a DL that was too short due to a slouching issue. Your method is the most precise I've come across in 24 years of shooting. All too many in the "your DL is too long" camp might learn some things from your post.
> Question? Your starting point of "absolute maximum" has me searching but not yet convinced I've found it yet. I'm shooting a TRX38 "E" 80% mod at 28 5/8" and do not have a longer mod to play with. I was shooting 27-27 3/4" prior to this so everything feels long initially. I should add that I'm shooting better and with better form at the current DL.
> Added: Also, could you describe the process when you don't have a rotating module type cam?


If your bow doesn’t have rotating mods it can get a little pricey to do the initial process but the end results justifies the means in my opinion. If additional mods aren’t available I find similar bows in my local shop or see if the shop has mods I can “borrow” for a few shots to test. You’ll know for sure when you get to a mod that’s too long for you just based on being over extended with no “room” left to execute a shot.


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## EPLC

Thanks. I do have an old Vantage Elite with GTX cams (custom setup) that has a similar geometry that may be a good substitute…, maybe.


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## EPLC

baller said:


> There's a couple things you can do to fix this. One thing to do is to pay attention to what your bow is telling you. If your sight picture is steady when you hold but moves when you start your execution stage, either your execution stage adding more than the current bow setup can handle, or the current setup needs to be adapted so that the sight picture stays solid when you execute the shot. There is a way to tune the bow to hold more and more steady as you build your shot.
> 
> Second thing to work on is the mental side of aiming a bow. Your sight picture is never going to be completely still. If it is I'd be willing to bet that when you miss the misses are quite large and tend to be from unpredictable, darty movement right at the break of the release, and go in all directions from intended target instead of having a patterned miss. *Learning to look where you want your arrow to impact and allow your dot to float with some movement over that spot will help free up your execution. *
> 
> One thing i do to remind myself that I can pull and aim and let it float is aiming drills. My normal practice session is 2 hours, so a few days a week I may only shoot a total of 30 arrows, but I shoot each arrow about 4 times. As I have said before I am a hinge shooter, and I have a hinge set up for this with the moon upside down so that it cannot ever fire the shot. This allows me to aim and execute until my sight picture is breaking down, then I let down and reset and do it again. I switch releases on the 4th draw and aim and execute that shot. This has really helped free up my execution and learn to deal with the small movements in my sight picture while keeping me from getting hung up or punching. This is one of the fun parts of archery I think....we have to train the brain as much or more than we train the body.


I have a serious issue with focusing on the pin instead of the spot. I get fixated on the pin/movement and can't stop chasing it. Needless to say, this never ends well. Changing something (from bows to sight pictures and everything in between) can provide temporary relief but within a short period I'm right back fixating on the movement. Your aiming drill looks like it has promise but do you have any other suggestions? I'm really stuck here. TIA

My second question concerns your statement about tuning the bow to hold as you build your shot. I find myself pulling off center. Could you provide some detail on this?


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## baller

Trusting your shot enough to be able to look at the target and not the pin is a tough task but worth it in the end. In the past I've switched shooters who struggle with this over to a small ring instead of a pin or a dot. The brain automatically wants to center up concentric circles....and although it seems far-fetched, I've repeatedly had arrows hit right were I'm looking even if my aiming reference wasn't there at the release of the shot. The ring aiming reference (size according to your lens power and target, everyone is different) allows you to look through your reference at your intended target more easily until you train your eyes and brain to do so on the regular.

If your aiming reference is sitting in the middle until you begin the execution phase of your shot your setup is off even if just slightly. There are several variables that cause a certain type of movement off the spot when executing. The most common is vertical and is usually caused by the bow timing being off, weight balance being off, or the limb deflections being just slightly different from each other. If your movement is vertical when executing, the first thing I would do is check your timing in a draw board, make sure it's as close to even or the top draw stop hitting just slightly ahead of the bottom. Once your timing is sorted, shoot some more and figure out which way (up or down) it wants to move. If its up, begin by adding an ounce to the front...if you see improvement either keep adding to the front or move one ounce from the back to the front until you get the sight pic you want when executing...keep in mind this may unsettle the sight pic for the beginning of the shot, but it should settle down as you build into execution. 

If you're movement is horizontal, you most likely have a slight draw length issue causing miss-alignment, or you have slightly less front weight than you need to stabilize the bow as you add execution force. 

Idealy your looking for a sight picture that stabilizes right before you begin executing, and stays stable as you execute no matter how hard or soft you are pulling into the stops during execution.


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## EPLC

Thank you for the timely response. I’m going to try a ring again combined with your aiming drill. I’ve tried rings before w/o success. My eyes want to focus on the ring and not through it. This has been true regardless of reticle used. That said; maybe combining it with the aiming drill may produce a more positive result.


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## EPLC

I worked the drill for over an hour this evening and see some promise. I stuck a nickel sized dot on a piece of cardboard and tried to look through the ring at the dot w/o execution at short range. It was difficult at first but became easier as I went on. I did see progress so I’m hopeful. Thanks again.
I’m not convinced my DL is where it needs to be either at this point. As I keep going longer I feel I still need more.


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## EPLC

_*Update:* Shooting at 20 yards brought out an issue. My circle/ring was more dominant than the spot at 20 yards making it very difficult to look through the circle rather than at the circle. The solution, at least for now, was to add a #1 clarifier with my 4X lens. This setup made the spot a tad more dominant than the ring. It allowed me the ability to look through the circle, when my brain allowed it. I could manage about 1/3 of my shots looking through the circle. The other 2/3 of my shots were a mix of jumping back and forth between the circle and the spot. The 1/3 that I was able to look through the circle were mostly in the X. The other 2/3's not so much._

Above you said,* "Trusting your shot enough to be able to look at the target and not the pin is a tough task but worth it in the end. *In the past I've switched shooters who struggle with this over to a small ring instead of a pin or a dot."

*Question:* Could you perhaps provide some additional detail on methods to accomplish this? I'm willing to put in the time and effort.


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## baller

Adding the clarifier is a good place to start, as it will make the target clearer and more defined than the aiming reference. The rest of the training is basically ignoring what's on your lens and looking at your intended point of impact, like the x or the 10-ring, or even an arrow hole. In past years I've had shooters with these issues come to me and nothing helped....until we took everything off the lens...no dot no ring no pin nothing....and I had him shoot by picking a target, centering his sight picture on that target and keeping his focus on that target while executing. After a few weeks of him doing this exercise, I added a small ring back to the equation, and told him to keep his focus on the target....which he did for a while but then reverted back to bouncing back and forth. It took several weeks with the ring to get to a point where he could blur out the aiming reference and focus on the target face. Once he got consistent with it, he went back to a lit pin, and had been doing just fine since...total time about 6-8 weeks.

If you are struggling even with the larger ring you have on your lens, take the ring off (or shoot a blank lens) for a few sessions and see if you go to 100% focusing on the target. Once you are 100% focusing on the target, incorporate a small dot or small ring, something you can barely see in your sight picture when focusing on the target.....shoot that until you are 100% focusing on the target. When you get to this point, try your normal or intended aiming reference....if you don't stay 100% focuses on the target face not the reference, go back a step until you are 100%.....it will take some work and some patience....and a lot of missing, before you will get this to be a subconscious action. Keep at it.


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## EPLC

Thanks, I've actually been shooting with just the housing off and on for quite a while. Even with that setup I can still focus on the housing and not the spot. I'm a tough case, I guess. I do feel somewhat comfortable with the large ring and clarifier combo. I think I'll stick with it and combine it with your aiming drill. I just need to stick with it for a while and see if I can break the cycle. Once again, thanks!


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## EPLC

I can’t thank you enough for your insights and instructions to identify and get to the proper DL. I’m currently working with a 28 3/4” DL, a full inch more then where I was. For years I was 28” or less (mostly less) and have always struggled with a choppy hold. Yes, I learned to deal with it and had some success but my game was always inconsistent. I was also younger and stronger then. 
im still tweaking and twisting but my hold is much improved with this longer DL. I’d never be there had this thread not been pointed out to me. 
My issue now is I’m stuck with a difficulty pulling through the shot. I’m making a lot of good shots but still freezing on many. I think I’m pulling but I’m just building up tension. Any suggestions?


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## baller

EPLC said:


> I can’t thank you enough for your insights and instructions to identify and get to the proper DL. I’m currently working with a 28 3/4” DL, a full inch more then where I was. For years I was 28” or less (mostly less) and have always struggled with a choppy hold. Yes, I learned to deal with it and had some success but my game was always inconsistent. I was also younger and stronger then.
> im still tweaking and twisting but my hold is much improved with this longer DL. I’d never be there had this thread not been pointed out to me.
> My issue now is I’m stuck with a difficulty pulling through the shot. I’m making a lot of good shots but still freezing on many. I think I’m pulling but I’m just building up tension. Any suggestions?


Yep that usually happens with longer draw lengths. Double check your peep height make sure its right for the new draw length and new anchor...and you will have to adjust your release to the new draw/anchor as well so it fires in your window....every little adjustment we make will affect something else until all of the variables are in their new respective places. You're on the tail end of it now...


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## EPLC

baller said:


> Yep that usually happens with longer draw lengths. Double check your peep height make sure its right for the new draw length and new anchor...and you will have to adjust your release to the new draw/anchor as well so it fires in your window....every little adjustment we make will affect something else until all of the variables are in their new respective places. You're on the tail end of it now...


I haven’t noticed any issues with peep height but the release (B3 Infinity Pro) needs to be set faster. The biggest thing I’ve noticed is my left/right issues have resolved themselves. Vertical is another matter but it’s still better. Thanks again!


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## coastiehunter2

Have you ever been in a slump and had to dig your way out? Maybe battle some tp, is that how you came up with your aiming drills? I have some situational tp going on where I shoot decent practice scores but tournament scores are not even close to practice thanks


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## baller

coastiehunter2 said:


> Have you ever been in a slump and had to dig your way out? Maybe battle some tp, is that how you came up with your aiming drills? I have some situational tp going on where I shoot decent practice scores but tournament scores are not even close to practice thanks


Yes I’ve slumped several times. At different levels of competition it’s not a question of if but when a slump or plateau will occur. When I reach such a situation I basically start over, more so to reboot my brain. Blank bale, aiming drills, quality over quantity if a shot isn’t 110% at every one of my feel points I let down and start over. This might last a day it might last a month, maybe scoring one game every other session to track progress. In those games i continue letting down if shots aren’t perfect, basically refusing to accept anything but my best effort. So far this process has worked for me, and I am usually back to muscle memory and my normal mental process very soon.

Situational TP is a little different. You have to trick the mind into believing that the situation is not different, just the scenery is.You have to work through training to treat every arrow the exact same no matter what the venue, no matter what the situation, all time time….it takes some work but it is possible. Now this doesn’t change the nerves….everyone gets nerves. What it does is help those nerves be less severe, and helps you deal with them better.


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## EPLC

Holding low or low impact? What are your thoughts on this problem? Is it a form issue, cam timing issue or both? TIA


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## baller

EPLC said:


> Holding low or low impact? What are your thoughts on this problem? Is it a form issue, cam timing issue or both? TIA


First things to check are your cam timing and nock height, as well as weight setup. The next thing to look at is execution consistency. For me when I have a low hold or a low impact it’s usually a weak setup or weak pre-load, or during my shot I stop executing in my back half, the dot dips and the movement fires the shot. I run my timing dead even or just barely top cam early to prevent some of this be consistency in building your shot from beginning through execution is key to getting your bow setup to work with you.


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## EPLC

baller said:


> First things to check are your cam timing and nock height, as well as weight setup. The next thing to look at is execution consistency. For me when I have a low hold or a low impact it’s usually a weak setup or weak pre-load, or during my shot I stop executing in my back half, the dot dips and the movement fires the shot. I run my timing dead even or just barely top cam early to prevent some of this be consistency in building your shot from beginning through execution is key to getting your bow setup to work with you.


Cam timing is spot on (I have a draw board) so it’s got to be my execution. As I mentioned in earlier posts here I’ve been going longer and longer in my DL which has improved my L/R dramatically. I’m still tweaking but I’m very close now.


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## shedhtr13

Could u give some insight as to a single back bar vs. V bar? And if a shooter was inclined to shoot Vbar where to start as far as setting up TIA


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## baller

shedhtr13 said:


> Could u give some insight as to a single back bar vs. V bar? And if a shooter was inclined to shoot Vbar where to start as far as setting up TIA


A lot will depend on the shooter's preference and how their hand interacts with the bow, as well as how the bow balances without bars on it. Some shooters don't like any resistance and want the bow to sit fairly static, some shooters want a little bias to push against, some want a lot of bias to push against. 

For me I prefer a single back bar with just enough dynamic side weight to counter the weight of the sight, meaning regardless of front to back balance I want the bow to sit vertically in my hand with no influence from me. The front to back bias depends on the bow and how I'm shooting it, so the amount of weight and the angle of that back bar can vary from setup to setup. 

A good rule of thumb is to stand 5-6 feet from a good backstop, draw and anchor with your eyes shut, let the bow settle down and open your eyes....if the bubble in your scope is not level without moving anything its time for an adjustment.


For setting up v-bars, I like to start with 10 inch or 12 inch back bars, and split the same weight that's on the front between the two back bars. Shoot this for several ends and pay attention to your sight picture's behavior...if it seems light on the front like it wants to lift out of the spot, add some to the front in 1 oz increments....if it wants to dip add to the back in 1oz increments to each bar....this will get you started but ultimately where you end up will depend on what you see and feel.


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## shedhtr13

Thx for your reply..I thinking about this setup for nfaa shooting primarily vegas and 5spot..


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## bellasm

Baller, you are to be commended for your help. Most pros do not want to give up any secrets. Your explanation on maxing your draw length and working down from there to find the best float throughout the shot execution process is fantastic! Should have known you are from Kansas, an awesome state full of awesome people. Thanks and shoot straight.


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## xdr

Hi James,
We are just transitioning from 3D to paper (vegas style) leagues here and I am struggling with the 3rd spot as in I consistently shoot to the right of the 10 ring. I am consistent on spots 1 & 2, but #3 is always to the right. I have tried adjusting my stance, my DL but ultimately, I am just aiming slightly left which I know is wrong. Any insight to this issue? I appreciate any feedback. 
thanks!!
x


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## baller

xdr said:


> Hi James,
> We are just transitioning from 3D to paper (vegas style) leagues here and I am struggling with the 3rd spot as in I consistently shoot to the right of the 10 ring. I am consistent on spots 1 & 2, but #3 is always to the right. I have tried adjusting my stance, my DL but ultimately, I am just aiming slightly left which I know is wrong. Any insight to this issue? I appreciate any feedback.
> thanks!!
> x


Shoot your third spot first a few times and then without moving anything in your stance or pre-shot setup shoot the other two....see what shakes out. Another thing you can do is number your arrows 1, 2, 3 and shoot them to those spots as you pull them from your quiver (should end up random). This helps take any kind of setup tendancies out of your pre-shot routine. Thirdly shoot each spot as if it were a single spot....so 3 individual spots not just a 3-spot face. You can also try setting up each shot as if you are shooting the top spot, then as you come down after anchor aim for one of the lower spots...this gives you a consistent feel at setup.

I normally shoot top, left, right on my vegas faces and for me depending on the day I'll smash top and either right or left. Normally the one that bugs me that day is missing on the outside (left for left or right for right). Nothing more than misalignment during the draw/anchor/setup process. If I'm aggressively pushing that day more than normal my anchor might be a tick forward and I'll miss the left one to the left and smash the other two. if I'm pulling more than other days my anchor will be a tick to the rear and I'll miss the right one right and smash the other two.

Find what works for you and repeat, repeat, repeat....


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## xdr

Thank you! I really appreciate you taking the time to help out. I'll try this out on the practice round tomorrow. Even just the sequence of how you shoot the spots is different. I always go 1, 2, 3 and I think that transition from low to high back to low is driving a misalignment in my process. 
x


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## xdr

Hi James,
Just curious if you are planning on any major changes for the upcoming season? Equipment, training regime, fitness approach etc. 

Also, are you planning on going to the Rushmore Rumble?
x


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## baller

Hey sorry I just saw this. I’m actually at the rumble right now. Not a stellar round but for where I am in prep and gear it was ok.

I did make some changes this year. Back to a trx40, and back to shooting a hinge. Some other changes in arrow build and draw length/holding weight.

My practice is staying the same only difference ia I have less time/opportunity to practice so I’m having to make my practice time count


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