# Mental Training



## Ye'Ol'Fart (Aug 9, 2016)

I've looked and read a few articles, but figured I'd ask here to see what opinions are on the issue of mental training.

With archery being largely a mental game, what are some of the exercises and routines the top notch archers from around the world use for mental preparations?

I know positive mental image and being positive in general helps a lot. Many of my best scores were shot with happy and relaxed attitude. I've heard Brady in an interview speaking on mental training and some videos about the Koreans also talk about it, but I can't seem to find what these routines or exercises are.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bassham's mental management program is usually the default answer (mostly because it was pushed on us coaches at our own expense), but I find it relatively pedestrian and repetitive. 

I recently heard an interview that included sports psychologist Michael Gervais, and I really liked what he had to say. He talked about confidence that came from a genuine place, which is something I've told my students for many years. 

Here's a link to that interview. It made me want to learn more about Gervais and his philosophy. 

https://the1a.org/shows/2019-06-24/peak-performance-inside-the-world-of-super-athletes


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

IMO, the concepts in this book are all most competitors need to perform at their highest skill level ...
"The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance"

Basically, "focus on the sequential aspects of craft execution" - period. "You think of his sword, and of your sword, and of nothing else".


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Psychology-Experience-Perennial-Classics-ebook/dp/B000W94FE6/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1

This is based on solid research about how high performers in many fields do what they do. It explains why, as you say "Many of my best scores were shot with happy and relaxed attitude." The concepts of balancing skills with challenges also explains a lot about how people create anxiety for themselves and how others achieve high performance under the same conditions.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I don't have the time or inclination to try and fully parse/nuance/massage what my notion on this is - it would be book length (or maybe a three beer jawing session by the pool). So, this is my quick run and some will 'get it' and some "won't get it". Do with it as you will ...

I don't believe you can fool yourself - you _know_ as you approach a competition how well or how poorly you are shooting. You cannot talk yourself into shooting better, only shooting to your current capability. So, be completely tuned to reality. That's the first thing. If you're only shooting so-so, accept it. You'll end up shooting better by 'accepting that you're only so-so for this competition, rather than angsting and putting unrealistic expectations that you can 'will' yourself to shoot above your current skill level; that you'll "find it" once the tournament starts. Good luck being happy with that experience.

So, the 'mental game' can't make you shoot better than you can shoot. The mental game is that state of mind that "allows you" to shoot to your 100% skill level. Being "in the zone" or "I was unconscious out there, just not thinking at all - everything was just going in" ... this just describes a player who isn't getting in his/her own way. It describes a player whose ego/thinking self has stayed out of the way and just let his/her 'doing self' lose himself in the pace and aspects of craft. That total immersion is where the feeling of being happy and relaxed comes from. 

Concentrate on improving your physical skills, and your tuning/matching skills of equipment to you, and then keep your gaze down at the next step taken, and then the next step , etc. Don't think about the crowd, or the stakes, or the 'must have' of the moment - instead, like Tom Brady is so good at doing, just be 'only' aware - just hovering outside himself, watching himself with curiosity how he is performing this play, like he's done a million times in practice and then in the film room - of your 7 step drop, your progression read, turn your shoulder in, step with power into the direction of the ball/receiver intersection point, throw with a 'C' hand rotation and confident wrist/fingers snap-roll through the ball, zipping the ball 5 inches beyond the outstretched fingertips of the defender for that crucial 25yard out pattern (sorry for the painful "re live", Atlanta!). He's not thinking about "oh, I want this 5th Super Bowl win so badly", "oh, 800 million people are watching me - don't screw up, Tom!", etc

1) I'm shooting well - my physical skill level is high, and my equipment is exquisitely tuned to me.
2) My expectations are non-existent, other than I am curious to see/watch myself (my mind's eye hovering just behind and to the side of me) just shoot good arrow after good arrow. I have no idea how I will score, only a desire to watch myself shoot and to enjoy the immersion into being here.
3) My good arrows will make me smile, and I'll be happy and relaxed as my pace and shot sequence just flows. I'm lost in the pleasure of the rhythm and the repetition. I turn to my target mates between ends and say "isn't this great? Aren't you glad you're here, doing this?".
4) I look up after the final arrow, and foggily come to the awareness that I've shot an outstanding score for me. 

Ooops, it almost is a book.


----------



## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Thank you! That was definitely a three-beer description. 

There has been quite a bit written describing the mental state corresponding to optimal performance, however little about how to specifically attain it. It seems to be something that one innately has or develops themselves via experience. Have you seen or developed any specific mental training exercises? Something more prescriptive than descriptive?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

1) Know your average
2) Shoot your average 
3) If you don't like your average, work harder.

There you go Larry - three beer explanation. 

Been telling my students this for many years.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

j.conner said:


> Thank you! That was definitely a three-beer description.
> 
> There has been quite a bit written describing the mental state corresponding to optimal performance, however little about how to specifically attain it. It seems to be something that one innately has or develops themselves via experience. Have you seen or developed any specific mental training exercises? Something more prescriptive than descriptive?


This is exactly the issue I have with the Bassham method. I think there needs to be a better "prescription" as you say, to achieve the mental state one is seeking. There are volumes written about what it is, and how to define it and how it helps athletes perform better but I've always felt our high performance programs were lacking specifically in actual training to achieve this goal. 

Everyone who plays this sport long enough agrees that the mental game is as important, if not moreso, than the physical game, but yet we see even our best young archers spend 30-50 hours/week on their physical training and maybe a few hours/week on their mental game, if even that. IMO our full-time archers should be mental giants within a year of accepting a full-time training position, and if not, then maybe they aren't worth further investment. Something to think about.


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

j.conner said:


> Have you seen or developed any specific mental training exercises? Something more prescriptive than descriptive?


In my opinion a descriptive or prescriptive training starts just when the skill level is high. We like to talk about mental training, metal toughness but in the end is about emotional detachment. When the practitioner is at that level with his skills, he is told about the definiteness and absoluteness of his act - in this case shooting the bow. How the archer will integrate these 2 elements in his shooting sequence is very personal and there is no recipe. These two words are supposed to add another dimension and alter the existing mindset, moving forward the "learning mind" toward "action mind".


----------



## txarcher5 (Jan 8, 2018)

Thank you for the link. It is a very interesting podcast.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Mental training is a challenge. You hear a lot of people say you have to have it but it is very mystical to say the least. Here are key components to learn, but remember, it is like learning how to shoot. You have to take baby steps before you can walk, you have to walk before you can run, etc. It will take months to learn how to be focused, relaxed and believe in yourself.

1. Learn basic relaxation skills. This allows you to be "in a happy place" and it keeps your heart rate low.
2. Learn goal setting. Look up goal setting and how to work with it. It is extremely important, so that you focus on your goals and not your fears.
3. Visualization. Learn to be able to see in your "mind's eye" your shot while looking in and looking out. There's some good material out there that helps with this.
4. Focus. The average human has an attention span of 1.5 seconds and then their mind flips over to something else and then back to what you were supposed to do. It takes a lot of time to learn how to focus for 7-10 seconds straight without breaking that concentration.
5. Self-talk. Most people talk to themselves but more in a negative way. Learn to change that to positive and you have a better chance of believing you can do it. 

These basic mental training parts are very important for many archers. Some already have the majority of skills, but many do not. It can be a learned attribute. The reason most archers do not improve their mental game is that they only practice it at a tournament. They do not take the time that is required to be able to strengthen those attributes to become a better archer. Do you think it is just form and equipment that has made archers all over the world improve their game to incredible scores? I am sure they have been taught how to stay focused, relaxed, positive and believe in themselves. 

I consider Basham's program more of a "cookie-cutter" program. It's a good start but needs more detail. I suggest you look at Alan S Goldberg and his writings. Most of his comments are very similar to what I believe, although I am sure there are others out there as well. 

A final thought. What works for one, may not work for another. I looked far and wide before I learned what I needed to stay focused, relaxed, and confident before I could control my anxiety or choking ability. Give it the effort you put into your shooting and you just might find out it is easier than you thought.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> 1) Know your average
> 2) Shoot your average
> 3) If you don't like your average, work harder.
> 
> ...


Maybe if you're chugging them! I have to use more words than you do, John! But it's the same message.

There's a moment in the great baseball movie For Love of the Game (Kevin Costner), where he's struggling on the mound, tired and agitated, and he pulls up a childhood memory of him pitching to his dad, getting frustrated, and his dad saying "Calm down Billy. Just throw to the glove, like you've done a thousand times." And, back in the present moment, Kevin repeats the line to himself ("Like I done a million times") as a way to focus and relax. Great example there. 

Archers, quit thinking about what you want, and just be curious to watch yourself make good pitches.


----------



## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> 1) Know your average
> 2) Shoot your average
> 3) If you don't like your average, work harder.
> 
> ...


I'm still a novice compared to most of you guys, but this type of thinking helped me the most this year. My coach told me to focus on nearly exactly these three steps and my scores went up about 30 points (there was plenty of room!). What I found that I liked most about this is that I didn't HAVE to shoot my best at a tournament. However, it freed my mind to be able to hope for my best, and be happy with my average. Then, just improve my average. 

Once I got comfortable with this, I took a next step in the past few months, and really applied this specifically to my per end average. It really takes the pressure off of those last two arrows knowing that I don't have to make these arrows count more than the others. Shooting four 10s doesn't mean that shooting 2 more is any harder, and I should expect to shoot my average. Every arrow is a chance to shoot my best shot, and generally my average should just increase as I work harder. I really like this. 

I have started to notice a little bit of a problematic cycle with this for myself though. This way of thinking actually causes me to shoot better early on in a round, and then I begin to change my expectations because I'm shooting so well, and then I start to get disappointed with my average and things start to turn. So, I'm trying to be more mindful of how it's supposed to work, and it's great if I get a temporary confidence bump from this mentality, but to still expect my average and be happy with it. Then, just keep pushing to get my averages up.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

j.conner said:


> Thank you! That was definitely a three-beer description.
> 
> There has been quite a bit written describing the mental state corresponding to optimal performance, however little about how to specifically attain it. It seems to be something that one innately has or develops themselves via experience. Have you seen or developed any specific mental training exercises? Something more prescriptive than descriptive?


I guess the only technique I practice is to try and pick a spot in practice when I consciously try to 1) emotionally detach (thank you, Draven, that is a perfect description) from the result ("I don't give a flying &*%# "), and 2) step outside myself and watch myself shoot good arrows. I can feel it when I'm successfully doing that, and it's a wonderful feeling - liberating. 

The only other thing I'll do in practice that feels like 'mental game training' is I'll recall other competitions when I really shot well under pressure, and just enjoy reliving those memories while I'm practicing. I almost invariably step up the quality/accuracy of my practice shooting when I remember to do that. I try not to overuse that technique, though - don't want to dilute it or make it a yawner.


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

lksseven said:


> . Archers, quit thinking about what you want, and just be curious to watch yourself make good pitches.


If this was true, sport-psychologist were not needed. If someone can tell the difference between "quality shot" and "quantity shot" executed by a well skilled archer will start to scratch the surface of mental training.
I added a couple of days ago a video with Coach Kim. He was asked how many arrows the archer is shooting when is close to a competition and he gave an average (25% less than normal arrows shot daily). He referred to this training as "quality shooting". What's a "quality shot" then and how you achieve it? Can be achieved before having thousands and thousands of very good shots?


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I try to get lost in the execution of the shot. It takes some of the performance angst away. I'm reminded of another scrawny archer asking me.....'Are you shooting arrows, or tens?' If you're trying to shoot tens, you're in trouble. If you're trying to shoot arrows properly, you've a much better chance of shooting a ten.


----------



## Alik (Apr 3, 2019)

midwayarcherywi said:


> If you're trying to shoot tens, you're in trouble. If you're trying to shoot arrows properly, you've a much better chance of shooting a ten.


I've found the opposite to be true for me (at least indoors)


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Draven Olary said:


> In my opinion a descriptive or prescriptive training starts just when the skill level is high. We like to talk about mental training, metal toughness but in the end is about emotional detachment. When the practitioner is at that level with his skills, he is told about the definiteness and absoluteness of his act - in this case shooting the bow. How the archer will integrate these 2 elements in his shooting sequence is very personal and there is no recipe. These two words are supposed to add another dimension and alter the existing mindset, moving forward the "learning mind" toward "action mind".


There is a mistake there: it should be definitiveness instead definiteness. Cell modified the word.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Alik said:


> I've found the opposite to be true for me (at least indoors)


Whatever works for you is your answer. As for the validity of the statement and the effectiveness of that mindset, you can take it up with the multiple time world champion and multiple time Olympian, whom I was paraphrasing. He's on this thread


----------



## Alik (Apr 3, 2019)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Alik said:
> 
> 
> > I've found the opposite to be true for me (at least indoors)
> ...


Of course everyone is different and therefore different things work for everyone best. My intention was just to show that mental approaches can be opposing (as many aspects of archery). 

But I'd also say that sometimes your mindset can change over time, depending on your current state. What used to work last month/year/... does not necessarily have to work best for you today. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> 1) Know your average
> 2) Shoot your average
> 3) If you don't like your average, work harder.
> 
> ...


I left off what I call the "lightning" corollary, which is:

*"Always leave the door open for excellence."*

Some think of it as catching lightning in a bottle. What it means is, while staying grounded and working on the process, if lightning strikes, don't try to avoid it - just let it happen. Never close the door in your mind to an excellent performance. Too often I see people do this by saying to themselves "I'm shooting better than I usually do, I wonder how much longer I can keep this up?" The idea of "leaving the door open" is that once excellence begins to happen, just let it happen and see where it takes you.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I left off what I call the "lightning" corollary, which is:
> 
> *"Always leave the door open for excellence."*
> 
> Some think of it as catching lightning in a bottle. What it means is, while staying grounded and working on the process, if lightning strikes, don't try to avoid it - just let it happen. Never close the door in your mind to an excellent performance. Too often I see people do this by saying to themselves "I'm shooting better than I usually do, I wonder how much longer I can keep this up?" The idea of "leaving the door open" is that once excellence begins to happen, just let it happen and see where it takes you.


this is absolute Golden Advice/Wisdom


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

You were right the first time around, no need to over complicate it. 
If your first three points were followed, the "lightening" falls into the bottle by itself.

The only issue with the theory, is that too many people think their best score is their average... 

Guys - 

I "teach" the mental aspects of shooting the same way I teach back tension.
Basically, I don't. 

Oddly enough, by the time I tell someone they are ready for larger matches, they seem to be doing both pretty well. 

Specific mental training is like any other specific training, it's done to fix a specific problem. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## FLlongshot (Jan 2, 2008)

"The only issue with the theory, is that too many people think their best score is their average... "

This is a fact. I see more guys set themselves up for failure with unrealistic expectations long before the shooting starts.


----------



## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Greg, 

I have a similar situation to yourself. Rick describes this in his book as returning to your comfort zone. His post in this thread summarises some of his suggestions to raise your comfort zone. I am trying to include some relaxation/positive self talk/visualisation as some of the “work harder” to raise my average score (along with form work/shooting practice of course).

I suspect that form work will still give me biggest bang for buck in terms of effort, but I don’t see any point in neglecting the mental side early as if I turn up to a shoot with perfect form and freak out when the clock starts the results won’t be too pretty either way.

James


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> John -
> 
> You were right the first time around, no need to over complicate it.
> If your first three points were followed, the "lightening" falls into the bottle by itself.
> ...


I found this corollary necessary to add a few years after my original "three beer explanation" because some people thought "shoot your average" meant (subconsciously) they should reel themselves in if they were having an unusually good day. I saw this often enough that I wanted to address it.

You are correct that many people have an unrealistic idea of what their true average is, so they set themselves up for failure. That is why my first point is "KNOW your average." There is no issue. It is very clear.

Before I attended my first USAT event, I made it a point to only score on very windy days in training. That became my "average" in my mind. So when I got to the Texas Shootout in '04, a steady left to right 12 gusty breeze was "average" to me and I shot what I expected to shoot. 

Those three points, and the corollary were the result of working with hundreds of archers over the years. If they stick to them, they will be fine and even occasionally, much better than fine.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> I "teach" the mental aspects of shooting the same way I teach back tension.
> Basically, I don't.
> ...


I fundamentally disagree. To think any archer is mentally prepared just because they've attained more shooting skill is a flawed assumption. Introducing the proper mindset throughout the entire development cycle is as important as teaching a proper anchor. I'd be willing to bet this is something you do with your students without attributing it to mental training.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

I've seen a number of people "reel themselves in", but in the old days we called them sandbaggers. 
I know you're talking about something else, but yours is even a more troubling scenario. 

Midway -

That's because you have no idea what I'm talking about. 
Things like "back tension" and "mental training" are built into the process, even if those* terms *are never mentioned. 

Guys - 

I had originally typed a response to this early on, but deleted it. Mostly because I felt we'd be getting more Internet opinions than ones based on real experience. My deleted post echoed John's. 

In addition to John's 3 beer points, before I tell a shooter he's ready, he'll go through simulated matches, as close to the real venue as possible and then I'll put him through hell. If he can score well with me sabotaging almost every shot (OK, that's an extreme case), he's mentally ready. Basically, the "real" match should be boring by comparison. 

A lot of the stuff that Rick mentioned are all viable options, but only used when a specific case requires them. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Well Tony, your second post at least clarifies that you do teach mental skills in parallel with form skills. Your first post was just kind of hanging in mid air.


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> In addition to John's 3 beer points, before I tell a shooter he's ready, he'll go through simulated matches, as close to the real venue as possible *and then I'll put him through hell. If he can score well with me sabotaging almost every shot (OK, that's an extreme case), he's mentally ready. Basically, the "real" match should be boring by comparison. *
> 
> Viper1 out.


Viper, THIS is what actually someone wants to know when is starting a topic. Since I am quite familiar with this way of training - nobody can do it without having the technical part well implemented - I would like to hear your position about "no matter how greenhorn you are, go and compete to get experience". Thank you.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

D - 

Well, if I enumerated what I do, then shooters would be prepared for it, and half the value is lost.
That's reality, and every "coach" has to come up with his own techniques, and a lot of that is based on the shooter he's working with. 
It can be as simple as a mild distraction, or as nasty as moving a clicker. 



> "no matter how greenhorn you are, go and compete to get experience"


If I were politically correct, I say "sure, go for it". 
But I'm not politically correct. 
The people I've trained and told they were ready for regional or national matches wound up shooting scores within their average or better (and yes, found the actual match boring), those that went against my advise, typically "had a good time" and fell flat on their faces. 
Frankly I've seen too many people (usually brats) "going to nationals" who couldn't keep all their arrows on the target. So have a little respect for the sport and don't go to "nationals" to get your rocks off. Going to win may be unreasonable for most people, but having a decent average and shooting it, is another story. 
Like John said, if you don't like your average - work harder, or rather, smarter.

Viper1 out.


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I agree with you, on all the accounts.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> John -
> 
> I've seen a number of people "reel themselves in", but in the old days we called them sandbaggers.
> I know you're talking about something else, but yours is even a more troubling scenario. .


No, sandbaggers are something entirely different. 

What I'm talking about is incredibly common. I don't find it troubling, I find it normal, until someone learns to train themselves out of it - i.e., "leave the door open." 

We talked very openly about these principles in my clubs for years. Many of my archers learned to see when it was happening, and by doing so, had an opportunity to stop it from happening by replacing those thoughts with - as Rick says - more positive thoughts. I could see this change in all my top students over the years, and often found them repeating those verses back to me during tournaments. Many have told me that it's very calming and reassuring to be able to say "I'm just here to shoot my average" at a tournament. The really good ones would follow that with "but if lightning strikes, I'm ready for that too!"


----------



## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

Has anyone tried www.archerymentalmastery.com ? It appears to be very inexpensive and could be a good base for mental training.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

I think it's "troubling" because if a shot sequence is known and followed, and a legit average is known, it really shouldn't be an issue.
The only thing might be close is a shooter "relaxing" or taking short-cuts when things are going well and that just means getting sloppy. 
(Been there, done that.)

The "I'm just here to shoot my average" types (who really mean it) are usually the ones who come out on top.
At least that's what I've seen, l I don't think the "ready for lightening" is a factor, as that's what supposed to happen. 

When I shot my 300 (ble face), the first guy who approached me said, "it had to happen sooner or later". And yeah, I was just there to shoot my average and it literally "just happened". And no, it hasn't happened again since 

(John, just one caveat: I only work with adults these days, so your experience with kids may be different.)

Viper1 out.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> No, sandbaggers are something entirely different.
> 
> What I'm talking about is incredibly common. I don't find it troubling, I find it normal, until someone learns to train themselves out of it - i.e., "leave the door open."
> 
> We talked very openly about these principles in my clubs for years. Many of my archers learned to see when it was happening, and by doing so, had an opportunity to stop it from happening by replacing those thoughts with - as Rick says - more positive thoughts. I could see this change in all my top students over the years, and often found them repeating those verses back to me during tournaments. Many have told me that it's very calming and reassuring to be able to say "I'm just here to shoot my average" at a tournament. The really good ones would follow that with "but if lightning strikes, I'm ready for that too!"


I've seen it happen a lot. Shooters who are used to shooting a certain score will play themselves up, or down to that level. It can be a challenge to break that ceiling.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

You guys are talking about "Comfort Zone". Shooting your average is comfortable. In order to get out of it, you have to be a bit uncomfortable or you will stay at the same level. Again, you need to get yourself practicing mentally so that you can leave that comfort zone and feel good about doing it. 

Archery Mental Mastery. Read the book and was not very impressed with it. Just my 2 cents. Others may find it enlightening.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, you're right about your average being your comfort zone. It's a mental technique that I've found useful for the majority of people who find it difficult to shoot as well in tournaments as they are used to shooting in practice. What you are describing is what I consider a more advanced line of thought useful for those who have already overcome this issue.

Having said that, if the truly elite archers are banging out 350's in practice and they aren't doing that in tournaments, then maybe even they are trying to shoot their average in practice. Just a thought.

Your comfort zone comment is particularly interesting considering that both archers in the finals of the world championships only retreated after having taken the lead. But one (Brady) was able to snap out of it.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John, I think that what Brady and Khairul felt was the battle of thinking in the future (being a world champion) and then being able to calm the fears and get back into the present of focusing on the shot. The problem for Khairul was that once Brady shot that X, he applied way too much pressure on himself and had doubt. There is no question both archers shot extremely well, but this is why that World Title is so coveted and admired by many due to the pressure packed situation. The practicing of high scores in practice is normal. After all, the ego is not active at the time. When you compete, you deal with that ego and think about what can be instead of staying focused on the present. I used to practice near 350's at 70 and shot many 350 plus scores at 50. But in a tournament there was that added pressure of your ego and your competitor. The best times I had was when I fell into the zone and enjoyed shooting 10 after 10. Focusing on that one feeling of making the shot feel good. The rest was automatic. Not an easy place to be unless you practice it physically and mentally.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick, John, et al -

I know that theory about "comfort zone", and we have to remember two things:

First and most importantly, most of us are weekend warriors at best, so what "Brady and Khairul" do or think almost always doesn't apply here. 
I honestly believe that constantly referencing people like "Brady and Khairul" and "world champions" does way more harm than good. It has the same negative effect that "Howard Hill and Fred Bear said" has on the traditional side. 

Second, breaking out of your comfort zone and inching out of it are two different things, and I have hunch which one works better for most weekend warriors. Like I said, when I train someone, I WILL make them uncomfortable, but it's a graduated approach, kinda like hitting them with a ball peen hammer instead of a sledge hammer. That's another reason why I'm hard pressed to go into specifics on the Internet. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm afraid we're talking past each other but mostly in agreement. I've contributed all I have to say on this topic. Those three main points, along with the "lightning" corollary, are enough for 99% of archers IMO. No need to overcomplicate it.


----------



## ItsJim (Jul 29, 2016)

Fascinating discussion - very interesting read - thanks to all who contributed!

(from a really old amateur/retired beginning archer who does not compete but only shoots for the pleasure of it)


----------



## kupop18 (Sep 22, 2014)

reading with interest!


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I believe the correct/best mental approach is two pronged:
- Long View .... The big tournament is coming up and intellectually I'm agreeable with the concept of reasonable expectations based upon my current scoring performances in practice or lead-up local competitions. So, I know my average, my reasonable goal is to have a reasonable expectation that I should at least shoot in the neighborhood of my average, and if I get on a roll, let'er roll!

- Short View ... In the midst of the competition, though, I have no expectations or governor or limiters at all. The macro doesn't exist. Only the micro - I'm mesmerized by curiosity and fascination while watching my "Doing Self" execute my shot process on this arrow. Feedback loop on "arrow result joined with 'how did that shot feel?' feeling ". Deep breath. Watch myself execute the next arrow. Feedback loop. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Remark to someone while walking down to the target - "Isn't this great? Aren't we lucky to have this hobby/sport/pursuit/quest ?"


So my intellect keeps my expectations reasonable and manageable in the broad lead up to the tournament, thus minimizing anxiety and tension. But once the gun sounds, I should only be curious about watching myself execute the aspects of craft of each arrow, lost in the moment 72 times ("you think of his sword, and of your sword, and nothing else"). 

"Hey! We need more beers over here!" :darkbeer:


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys and Larry - 



> Fascinating discussion - very interesting read - thanks to all who contributed!





> reading with interest!


Yes, it's one of the better discussions we've had in a while, but ... be careful. 
"Mental training" is important, as is it's younger brother "attitude". 
The danger with any Internet discussion like this is that it has to be kept generic, since each case will need a slightly different approach. More over, as was only slightly alluded to in some previous posts, the "mental" stuff is all but useless without the physical work being done first, let's just keep it real. All the mental conditioning and training will do squat if you don't have a repeatable anchor or lousy alignment. Unfortunately, we see that and variations happening more often than not.

Viper1 out.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Viper1 said:


> Guys and Larry -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Laughing out loud at this comment - SO TRUE! 

Also true about each case being diferent. Reggie Jackson was known as Mr October because of his proclivity for playing his biggest in the biggest games on the biggest stages (post season playoffs and World Series). His own theory about why his hitting production was so much higher in the post season than in the regular season - "a zillion eyes watching the World Series. My fear of failure in front of all those people makes me focus completely on the moment". So, for him, his fear of making a bad shot helps him clearly focus on his aspects of craft. Whereas for others that fear short circuits their execution.


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper1, although I can see what you mean, I think that your thought process will not help the recreational archer as much as you could. Giving them something to read about, some of the mental activities discussed, can sometimes help them out tremendously. If it doesn't, nothing lost, just a bit more educated. The different forms of mental training that you have alluded to was something I dealt with in the 70's when I was in my dad's shop. The tricks and games pulled on each other did help to a degree, but I would think one would want to develop an organized structure to learning mental focus so that once their form consistency gets better, they do not "choke" due to being uncomfortable of rising to the next level. 

There have been many studies on visualization of a sport before actually participating in it and the results are fascinating. The mental learning skills (ie. visualization in particular) had the same results of those just learning how to shoot. Therefore, if you combined the two, your ability will increase somewhat. It isn't the only solution, but it sure does help. 

Learning some mental tricks does not take very long per day. What is most interesting is that once you start learning these skills, you normally will utilize them with other parts of your life and find them to be quite advantageous. Some of the archers I have been working with have been able to use these same skills with other sports (obviously), their music, their speaking engagements and other facets that were not thought of before teaching them how to stay calm, relaxed and positive. So, start your archers slowly in the mental game but at least give them the opportunity to say yes or no to it. It just might be a huge asset. Yes, I know it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks, but being open minded gives your students (young and old) another opportunity for growth. 

This doesn't mean that you have to go full out in the mental training, but taking baby steps to learn each part of it is a huge asset to your arsenal down the road. Nothing wrong with being a really good weekend warrior compared to just a weekend warrior.


----------



## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I agree with Viper but Rick McKiney has a point too: some little things can be said from the beginning. I don't see "mental training" as an individual subject, but more like an umbrella who's covering "disciplined mind" subject too. And this "disciplined mind" is what a Teacher will instil in his student first. When Viper said he is not politically correct and will not advise his unprepared students to compete is a mental education form that is part of this "disciplined mind" training. When limbwalker stated his 3 rules and the corollary he actually defined what "discipline mind" is in a competition context: know yourself, know what you can do and work with these two to achieve what you want; if you have a day of grace, embrace it and don't doubt yourself. 
How to make these more "formal"? It is up to each Teacher. Baby-steps. Visualization when the beginner has no idea what to visualize will do more harm than good. What they don't say in those studies is how many non-practitioners involved in the test were followers of the sport itself and what was their interest in the sport. "Monkey see monkey do" learning is amplified when there is an interest for an activity. In archery I think "monkey see monkey do" type of learning has a very short life and can end in TP or bad habits in the less extreme situation without Teacher's knowledge and input.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick - 

I believe that as well, but there has to be a time and a place.
The danger here, is too many people on the Internet putting the cart before the horse. Knowing when to introduce what part or type of mental training and more importantly how to introduce it has a pretty big effect on the outcome. So sure, a guy can watch youtube and glean useful information from it, but a better scenario would be as you described, a coach or instructor introducing the mental aspects along with the physical when appropriate. 

For example, I try to teach my students to visualize the shot, not only before the actual execution, but as a way of being able to practice anywhere, anytime. The catch may be, for that to work, the mental rehearsal has to be fairly detailed. The more detailed the rehearsal, the more effective it becomes. (I did a lot of my best rifle training on the train going to work.) So the better the shooter's shot sequence is codified, the more he can get out of the rehearsal, so I wait until the shot sequence has gotten past the boiler plate stage to start the imagery. 

What to do when things go south during a match is usually covered about the time the shooter starts shooting matches and has to be pretty much finished before he goes out to compete without a coach. 

And yes, it's not just about archery, the same techniques work with any sport or any other activity. The trick is still not to bombard the newbie with the whole 9 yards at once. Basically, I think we're saying the same thing.

Viper1 out.


----------



## khouch1203 (Jun 30, 2019)

try youtube mental videos


----------



## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

Viper1 said:


> Rick -
> For example, I try to teach my students to visualize the shot, not only before the actual execution, but as a way of being able to practice anywhere, anytime. The catch may be, for that to work, the mental rehearsal has to be fairly detailed. The more detailed the rehearsal, the more effective it becomes. (I did a lot of my best rifle training on the train going to work.) So the better the shooter's shot sequence is codified, the more he can get out of the rehearsal, so I wait until the shot sequence has gotten past the boiler plate stage to start the imagery.
> 
> And yes, it's not just about archery, the same techniques work with any sport or any other activity. The trick is still not to bombard the newbie with the whole 9 yards at once. Basically, I think we're saying the same thing.
> ...


As a relative rookie in archery, I've been trying to use "visualizing the shot" as I have used "visualizing the run" in drag racing. "Self Talk" as well. However, in racing, this has been gleaned from thousands of runs on the track and knowing what to expect. Being strapped in awaiting the run gives me a few minutes to go through the process multiple times in my head. Races are won or lost by thousandths of a second, so each component of the run has to executed nearly perfectly. There are multiple focal points ranging from very narrow focus to wide focus. With a stick shift car, both feet, clutch and throttle, the steering hand and the shifting hand have to do their thing in concert with everything else with pin point accuracy. I know what the car is capable of as well as what it is not, and there are hundreds of things that can go wrong in the space of less than ten seconds. Some I have control of - other things are out of my control. Stuff just happens.

I've tried to implement some of this stuff when shooting. But, as yet, I have not the "number of runs" needed to make the process as automatic and ingrained as I am with racing. I'm just not there yet. I most likely never be. The main difference is being strapped in with my helmet on, the doors closed, I'm in my own little world, not standing at the shooting line with dozen of others, wide open for everyone to see, as well as other stuff going on around me.

I still "miss the shift" fairly frequently. But visualizing and self talk definitely helps.


----------



## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I really like the "shoot your average" approach. Track your scores and know what to expect. I'm a big fan of that. An average and a standard deviation to know how much it normally varies.

I also like to make practice more strenuous than competition. Use a 36" Whitetail with a 122cm face and cut off the 1-3 rings, shoot 12 arrow ends, crank along at 5 minute ends, and shoot 4 consecutive rounds with just a little rest in between. That way, at tournament, you feel "wow, that target looks big", "wow, this feels easy", etc.

Another approach I like is to "practice in the conscious and shoot in the subconscious". Focus on improving a thing or two each practice session, but when it is time to shoot for score just run your shot process.

Distraction training is a blast and good tournament prep for the team. I think it is very useful to learn that noises, trash talk, minor bumps/touches, some sprinkles, etc. are not fatal and can be desensitized.

I still think it is interesting, however, that most of mental management remains primarily descriptive. I can give you an exercise and a plan to follow which will build your biceps muscles. I can give you a stretching regime and plan that will improve your range of motion and balance. The effectiveness and progress of these can be measured too. But what specific exercises can we give for building the mental game? A mental training regime would be really cool. Have any of you seen one?


----------



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper1, You are correct. We are talking in a similar fashion. I guess a lot of this is just understanding what the other said. Your first description did not explain as well as your second one of how you work with the archer, which is very similar to the top shooters as they progress. The key is to get them to learn how to focus, visualize, be positive and put themselves in the "now" and not the "past" and not the "future". The shooting your average trick works just fine if you learn what your average truly is, as discussed. 

One way to help yourself in practice is if you barely touch the line, don't count it as the higher value. If it is that close in practice, it definitely will be out in a tournament. Always take the lesser value in practice. As John mentioned, practice in the windier times in practice. It not only teaches you in how to shoot in the wind, but it also helps you be more confident in the wind. Learning to shoot good shots in the wind is truly a mental training issue. 

All the best.


----------



## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Rick McKinney said:


> Viper1, You are correct. We are talking in a similar fashion. I guess a lot of this is just understanding what the other said. Your first description did not explain as well as your second one of how you work with the archer, which is very similar to the top shooters as they progress. The key is to get them to learn how to focus, visualize, be positive and put themselves in the "now" and not the "past" and not the "future". The shooting your average trick works just fine if you learn what your average truly is, as discussed.
> 
> One way to help yourself in practice is if you barely touch the line, don't count it as the higher value. If it is that close in practice, it definitely will be out in a tournament. Always take the lesser value in practice. As John mentioned, practice in the windier times in practice. It not only teaches you in how to shoot in the wind, but it also helps you be more confident in the wind. Learning to shoot good shots in the wind is truly a mental training issue.
> 
> All the best.




Not really as part of my mental approach, but rather as a matter of increasing the difficulty between practice and competition, I always score practice inside-out and about 6.5m farther than my competition distance/scoring. Keeps my averages honest even when my ego isn't.


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

There are many approaches to the mental game, and many ways to train. For me, the bottom line is that one needs to know not only how to shoot but why. What I mean by that is why you shoot the way you do on each shot, round, practice day, competition day, etc. That requires a great deal of self awareness and sense of purpose. You have to be able to take in information and self-assess without it negatively affecting your self esteem. Every shot should have a purpose and every shot needs to have some feedback that is processed in a way that leads to improvement, not reinforcing the mistakes. You have to find your weaknesses mentally just like you do in form, and deal with them in a way that leads where you want to go. I call it "doing the hard thing". 

It is harder to be prescriptive with mental training than physical training because it is so individual. If you can find a great coach that gets how to help YOU with either the mental or the physical aspect you should take advantage of that. Many of us have to rely on ourselves and help from other shooters.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

j.conner said:


> Another approach I like is to "practice in the conscious and shoot in the subconscious". Focus on improving a thing or two each practice session, but when it is time to shoot for score just run your shot process.
> 
> 
> 
> I still think it is interesting, however, that most of mental management remains primarily descriptive. I can give you an exercise and a plan to follow which will build your biceps muscles. I can give you a stretching regime and plan that will improve your range of motion and balance. The effectiveness and progress of these can be measured too. *But what specific exercises can we give for building the mental game? A mental training regime would be really cool. Have any of you seen one?*


I like your "practice in the conscious and shoot in the subconscious." That is very good.

And I agree it would be most useful to have a way to measure mental progress. I've not seen that tool described in any mental training books but I've also not read them all, so perhaps it's out there. I do think that is something that is seriously lacking in mental training for archers - a way to measure your mental progress. But it's a lot easier to sell books and videos and seminars when all you are doing is describing a process and aren't held accountable for how well it works. 

One of my most challenging students had immense talent and work ethic but really struggled with the mental game. I knew if they could just get a grip on the mental game, they would really be successful in the sport. So a technique we talked about was assigning a "mental score" to each end when they came back off the shooting line. The idea was to sit down and think about how well they focused and stayed positive through that end, then assign a score to that. At the end of the tournament, they could look back and see their "mental score" and then compare that to other tournaments to track progress. 

The ranking points came with descriptions that any experienced archer would understand. 10 was something like "maintained a relaxed focus, kept my situational awareness and my bale mates consider me a pleasure to shoot with." 5 was something like "struggled to maintain focus but managed for a few arrows. Showed noticeable frustration but didn't affect the archers around me." And a 1 was something like "very angry with my shooting, negative self-talk, judge pulled me aside and gave me a warning."

I forget all 10 descriptions, but they were fun to create. Each person can create a scale for themselves and calculate their "mental score" at the end of an event.

I really wish I had thought of this earlier in my coaching career as I think it would have helped a lot of young archers I worked with over the years.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I like your "practice in the conscious and shoot in the subconscious." That is very good.
> 
> And I agree it would be most useful to have a way to measure mental progress. I've not seen that tool described in any mental training books but I've also not read them all, so perhaps it's out there. I do think that is something that is seriously lacking in mental training for archers - a way to measure your mental progress. But it's a lot easier to sell books and videos and seminars when all you are doing is describing a process and aren't held accountable for how well it works.
> 
> ...


John, I like your notion of a mental 'state' ranking system for each end. I have a couple of my students do something like that, only not quite as quantifiable. They just note as each end occurs how many shots were 'good pitches' and how many were not 'good pitches' - a way to get their minds on shot quality and not just on shot score. The goall being to end up with more 'good pitches' per tournament as the tournaments roll by. But assigning points would allow another way to parse/track stuff.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'll try to track down the score sheet we came up with.


----------



## KaranTheSportPsy (Aug 24, 2021)

Hello Everyone,

As I was scrolling through the internet and I found this page and you all talking about the mental aspect of the Archery.

Well in my opinion as I have been working with archery since 7 years, the two most important factors are ability to regulate arousal levels and concentration.

Here is the simple trick, first we should work on the relaxation through breathing technique, internal dialogues. Doing it twice minimum for 6 weeks to 9 weeks at least should help develop this skill or sometimes it take little longer for few athletes.

Second is the imagery training, for that one should practice an imagery script suitable to his or her needs. Mostly archers prefer shooting an arrows in their head in various situation and experiencing the sensations associated with it. Which help them to develop technical skills and achieve shooting form.

Combining it both on and off field helps the archers to develop mental skills and enrich their shooting experience over the period of time. Consistency and frequency of this training is the key, once you are not regular with it you may not develop these skills whatsoever. This is what an archer minimally can do at least and the rest of the issues can also be discussed and addressed over time.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

KaranTheSportPsy said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> As I was scrolling through the internet and I found this page and you all talking about the mental aspect of the Archery.
> 
> ...


I know this is your first post, but that's a good way to start.


----------



## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

KaranTheSportPsy said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> As I was scrolling through the internet and I found this page and you all talking about the mental aspect of the Archery.
> 
> ...


Well, not bad, but I think the essence is not just regulating arousal but the ability to manage and direct energy. Some find it easily but cannot direct it consistently and reliably. Some have to work harder to find it but through that struggle direct it in the manner needed. And there are an infinite number of variations on the abilities of managing and finding energy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> I know this is your first post, but that's a good way to start.



OP, yes it is. Great first post.

A good book is Peak. I have used some of its principles for myself and students. Peak: Anders Ericsson, Robert Pool, Sean Runnette: 9781531864880: Amazon.com: Books


----------

