# Recurve Sight: SF Velocity vs Shibuya Dual Click vs W&W WS600



## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

ashbhatia said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am trying to make a budget purchase, however I want to pick a sight that would last me 2 years.
> I am confused between SF Archery Velocity Pro vs Shibuya Dual Click Standard vs Win & Win WS600.


Sorry for this in advance, but.... watch the classifieds for a gently USED shibuya Ultima sight for going rates in the ~$180 (aluminum bar) or ~$225 (carbon bar) range. No knobs to turn/loosten, no rattles. Worth every penny and will last you forever. 

Honestly, same with the rest of the rig. very gently used stuff typically goes for 60-75% of new price. Be patient, research used values and strike quickly when something shows up.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Only one of them has been used to shoot world records and win world championships and olympic gold medals. No-brainer really, sometimes following the herd makes sense.

In my eyes it's a choice between dual click or Ultima. I have both, and kinda prefer dual click but many like ultima more. In either purchase you need to take into account that you only need to buy one sight in your life. My ultima is about 10 years old (was one of the first ones ever in Europe) and dual click probably 15+.


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## ashbhatia (Jun 14, 2016)

Kiitos


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

I shot a win win for 3 years with no issues.
I eventually bought an ultima and to be honest it doesn't do anything the win win won't.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

dual click - it really is no brainer here.


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## ashbhatia (Jun 14, 2016)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> dual click - it really is no brainer here.


Thanks then Dual Click it will be


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Chang Hye Jin won the women's gold medal(s) at the Olympics with a dual click. It will do the job fine. If you can spend $70-100 more the Ultima is probably even better and was also used by Olympic medalists.

In contrast, the SF, which is only $40 cheaper than the dual click, drove me insane in an earlier version. I don't know if it's been changed but the aperture block was hand tightened, would loosen itself and droop. Literally cost me points drooping down during ends, so I had to obsessively tighten it every end. I got a dual click and while it has some limits relative to Ultima it's a good sight I've used for 2+ years since. I set it and forget it and that's what you want.

The WS600 looks kind of like the carbon version of the dual click they sold for a while. But I'm unfamiliar with it, or its durability, quality, etc.

I started off with the SF Forged Plus riser, it's fine, long term maybe swap out the rest which is springy. I have a Hoyt Superrest on mine now. But I used the stock rest for maybe a year.

Legend backpack is fine, I have one, has lasted about 3 years so far.

Might get a simple front rod stabilizer if you're trying to create an Olympic style setup.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

WS600 is not bad, as far as dual click copies go it on top of the pile, but it's still a copy. Better off with the original. I've seen those sights break, never seen Shibuya sight go wrong if they are treated well.

Personally, I don't feel/see/taste any difference between aluminium and carbon extension versions of either sight, so my suggestion for those who want to go for ultima has been to get one with alu arm, but those aren't readily available these days. Now dual click extreme, a sight who lots of top shooters, like Park Sung Hyun used, is different, as the whole vertical bar is carbon too. It is so light that you will feel a balance difference. I have one of those, but it hasn't been in use for years.


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## ashbhatia (Jun 14, 2016)

Azzurri said:


> Chang Hye Jin won the women's gold medal(s) at the Olympics with a dual click. It will do the job fine. If you can spend $70-100 more the Ultima is probably even better and was also used by Olympic medalists.
> 
> In contrast, the SF, which is only $40 cheaper than the dual click, drove me insane in an earlier version. I don't know if it's been changed but the aperture block was hand tightened, would loosen itself and droop. Literally cost me points drooping down during ends, so I had to obsessively tighten it every end. I got a dual click and while it has some limits relative to Ultima it's a good sight I've used for 2+ years since. I set it and forget it and that's what you want.
> 
> ...


Thanks, very insightful reply


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> WS600 is not bad, as far as dual click copies go it on top of the pile, but it's still a copy. Better off with the original. I've seen those sights break, never seen Shibuya sight go wrong if they are treated well.


Many professional Archer use(d) the Win&Win WS600 sight successfully. Latest example may be Ku Bon Chan - shooting with the WS600 till End of Season 2015.
I would suggest everyone to get a closer look at this sight. It's better made than the dual click with the big improvements of full metal sight block and a modified locking. Plus carbon-foam extension for less than a shibuya with metal extension...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/l3a1RDE8l5o/maxresdefault.jpg


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> I would suggest everyone to get a closer look at this sight. It's better made than the dual click with the big improvements of full metal sight block and a modified locking. Plus carbon-foam extension for less than a shibuya with metal extension...


I know it is widely used. But those "improvements" you stated are in my eyes its drawbacks. Shibuya's molded block, which is made by Beiter, never breaks or shifts, so it doesn't really even need locking. When it was introduced, it was marked as "improvement" from the previous full metal block, and I quite agree at that. And many prefer metal extension over carbon/foam, and in W&W's case I've seen them break when someone has dropped their bow.

It is a good option, but there is still the weight of history behind Dual Click.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> Shibuya's molded block, which is made by Beiter, never breaks or shifts, so it doesn't really even need locking.


Wouldn't state that. Cracking thread holes on the plastic are common, and for sure you have to lock the sight block with the locking screw.

Let me clarify - i'm using Shibuya rests and plunger and appreciate the company a lot but when i was was deciding between dual click carbon and WS600, the WS600 had significant advantages over the dual click.
(it was a personal preference NOT deciding the "ultima-system")


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## $wagitarias (Sep 6, 2016)

Sounds like a good setup, I know I'll probably hurt someone's feelings, but the SF Velocity is by far the best "budget" level sight. I have used it in a lot of tournaments and never have had any trouble. But come on, you can do a lot better than SF Axiom limbs. Go with HOYT, they will not let you down.:sunglasses:


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> Wouldn't state that. Cracking thread holes on the plastic are common, and for sure you have to lock the sight block with the locking screw.
> 
> Let me clarify - i'm using Shibuya rests and plunger and appreciate the company a lot but when i was was deciding between dual click carbon and WS600, the WS600 had significant advantages over the dual click.
> (it was a personal preference NOT deciding the "ultima-system")


Thats always done by over-tightening, as no piece of kit is idiot proof. Right tension is fingertip-tight, as it clearly says in manual. W&W sight is essentially copy of the previous version, RX-10, which still had double locking and metal block. SF sights are just cheaper, inferior versions of the W&W.

Axiom is brilliant limb for the money, cheaper Hoyt limb lines are far overpriced for what they are.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> W&W sight is essentially copy of the previous version, RX-10, which still had double locking and metal block.


Sorry zal, that's simply not true. I own the WS600 and also know the dual click. 
They operate different in locking the sight block.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> Sorry zal, that's simply not true. I own the WS600 and also know the dual click.
> They operate different in locking the sight block.


Yes, the way that RX-10 (or RX-7) used to work... Which was improved in Dual Click. The locking mechanism was moved from the side to front (or the side one was removed, there were earlier variations which only had the side locking, and some which had both, which was later copied in cheap Cartel & SF slights.)

Here's a Yamaha sight, which was pretty identical at the time:


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

And here is the "original", which was used by Darrell Pace to shoot 1341 in 1979. Original mechanism is closer to Ultima, AFAIK the rx-model line moved to what became Dual Click.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> Yes, the way that RX-10 used to work... Which was improved in Dual Click. The locking mechanism was moved from the side to front


never saw that. I only know shibuya sights with locking screw on the front. And can't find any pictures of the rx-10 on google working different.

nonetheless - the WS600 doesn't lock on friction against the elevation bar but on locking the worm gear which needs no special amount of tightening and works more reliable in my opinion.


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## TheElBow (May 18, 2015)

The question is what is the better, locking screw on side or on front, probably a matter of personal taste.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> never saw that. I only know shibuya sights with locking screw on the front. And can't find any pictures of the rx-10 on google working different.
> 
> nonetheless - the WS600 doesn't lock on friction against the elevation bar but on locking the worm gear which needs no special amount of tightening and works more reliable in my opinion.


I can check with my club president, he still has various RX and AR models. Considering Dual Click only came in 1999, there should still be plenty going around. Can't remember the right model numbers, I think RX-7 had two locking screws, RX-10 only has one. The current model, AFAIK, is officially RX-10 Dual Click.

Shibuya certainly seems to think that front locking is better, and for me, it certainly works better in Dual Click than in earlier RX sight I had which had the side one.

If I had to hazard a guess, front locking might be patented, that's why you only see copies closer to Yamaha model. But that's just speculation. And W&W owns Yamaha's tools, so it's not surprising to see the clear correlation between the Yamaha T-type sight and WS600.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

I own and use a WS600. It is, in my opinion, a far better value than the Shibuya Dual-click for exactly the reasons mentioned by others. It's only a few dollars more than a dual-click but has carbon extension, metal sight block, and a far more convenient mounting block that doesn't require you to completely remove the knob to take the sight off your bow. Yes, it has a locking knob, but if you forget to tighten it, the sight won't move on its own. I really like the light weight and simplicity of it. Having said that, I think the Shibuya Ultima is better, but there's a pretty significant price jump there.

-Kent W.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

The Shibuya Ultima RC RECURVE Aluminium Sight is only $190 at Alternative. That's got to be a best buy for an intermediate archer.

I have the WS600 and love it. And paid as much for it at LAS.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

zal said:


> Personally, I don't feel/see/taste any difference between aluminium and carbon extension versions of either sight, so my suggestion for those who want to go for ultima has been to get one with alu arm,


Not to mention resale on the Ultima will be higher as well.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

williamskg6 said:


> I own and use a WS600. It is, in my opinion, a far better value than the Shibuya Dual-click for exactly the reasons mentioned by others.





williamskg6 said:


> Having said that, I think the Shibuya Ultima is better, but there's a pretty significant price jump there.


yes and yes.
There *is* a reason why korean archer choose their material. And it's not always sponsorship....

And zal; thank your for the vintage pictures - i like that. But nonetheless the locking mechanism of the WS600 is still different to the Shibuya double click.
I will upload pictures of my sight to demonstrate ist


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Captain Kirk said:


> And zal; thank your for the vintage pictures - i like that. But nonetheless the locking mechanism of the WS600 is still different to the Shibuya double click.
> I will upload pictures of my sight to demonstrate ist


Yes, that has been the point whole time. WS600 system is identical to one they had, before they made it BETTER. No need to upload pictures. I have both sights in my house.

If in doubt what to choose, you can always choose what the absolute best use:


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

zal said:


> Yes, that has been the point whole time. WS600 system is identical to one they had, before they made it BETTER. No need to upload pictures. I have both sights in my house.


Anyway, as the thread topic is about dual click and WS600 and not discontinued material i will show the pictures. 
Partly because i think (on my first post mentioned) Ku Bon Chan is good enough too, and also if someone else is interested in details about this sight.

As stated before, the sight block is not locked down with a screw that fixes the elevation bar but locking the worm drive for elevation.
So you need no particular tension to get the sight block fixed. if the screw is in, the worm drive cannot move and therefor the sight block itself.
On the second image you can see there is no hole through the block - just the teflon runners and brass(?) spacer to fit on the elevation bar.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Yes, yes just like the old RX used to have...

My point still stands, the front locking is BETTER since there is far more surface area under the locking plate, so you will need much less pressure to lock anything down, which also keeps the locking screw still even if there is a lot of vibration. Problem with side locking has always been that it will rattle loose at some point or other, and the worm screw will jump teeth and drop suddenly.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

come on zal - it‘s getting weird....
first you state it's the same system as the old RX-10 (which isn't). Now it's the same system like "some old RX" which i really don't know when and how it worked and is obsolete because we're comparing actual equipment.
Fact is that the WS600 is an excellent sight, used commonly by world class archers, built in presence and will be a good alternative to the dual click.
If someone will ask me "which sight should i buy?" without any price range - for sure the Shibuya Ultimate Carbon it is. (I hope this will calm down a bit... ;-) )
Otherwise the WS600 or Arc Systeme. I trust in the advantage of carbon extensions.

And referring to your problems with side locking (which i cannot confirm in any situation the last 2 years and will be unlikely due the mechanism) - do you really think ku bon chan or any other world class archer using this sight would do so if this product would be that inferior?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

It's the same issue as the old Martin vs. Taylor comparison. Although they are both good guitars, Martin has the 100+ years of history.

I only know that my Dual Click has done about 12 years and hundreds of thousands of shots without a hitch and my club mates' older versions have done double that. I'll get you a pic when indoor season starts, but I don't plan to shoot before that so it will take time. If you want to see how it works, "Cartel Medalist" is pretty much identical copy of the old RX, but with slightly less elaborate side locking screw and far, far inferior build quality.

You can get carbon extension on dual click for $60 if you really want a carbon sight. I have one Dual Click Extreme, where even the elevation bar is carbon. But it's sitting in the case, as the normal one does it fine for me.


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## TheElBow (May 18, 2015)

What about the usable elevation range of the WS 600 compared to the Dual Click - equal, smaller, or larger?


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Elbow,
pretty much the same range. Both elevation bars have almost the same length - therefore must have the same range of appr. 10cm due to the worm drive sitting below. I know that because my 90m mark is at 9,6 on the sight bar and there is some space below.
I can measure the Win&Win exactly tomorrow as my equipment is stored in the office (don't have a dual click). 
But user "zal" stated he has both at home. maybe he can help.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm sure the OP is learning that no one even looks at the SF sights once any sight Dual Click or above is possible.

But if anyone wants to comment on why a new shooter should not get the Aluminum Shibuya Ultima that's priced equal to a WS600. I would like to hear it. In my case, the WS600 was familiar and I liked the cosmetics better.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

TheElBow said:


> What about the usable elevation range of the WS 600 compared to the Dual Click - equal, smaller, or larger?


Both have about 5,5", but you need to subtract almost an inch for the mechanism. Ultima has 5" but you can use it all since it's worm screw. Ultima and W&W have about 9" extension, while Dual Click has 10".

You can get Dual Click in Europe from several shops (like ixpesport) at around 125 eur (with tax), which converts to about $140, while WS600 and Ultima Standard are priced the same (around 175 eur). If you want a cheaper option, similar to WS600, with a carbon extension, Fivics FV-100 has been put in sale in some shops, like in altservices for next to peanuts. If you want a properly good competitor, Spigarelli Slim Carbon is a very good sight.

Or you can go Arc-Systeme SX-10, which is the sight SF Velocity is copied from.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

A few more detail photos of the WS-600 in silver from my post a few years ago: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1895212 (Has it really been almost 4 years?)

I also have a Shibuya Ultima RC (aluminum) in my household - it's my daughter's. I like almost everything about it except the mounting block. Unless you buy the Ultima (or Dual-click) with a carbon extension, you get the mounting block that requires you to completely remove the knob in order to remove the sight from your bow. So, you drop it, it rolls under a table, gets dented, you curse (or something resembling a curse). There aren't detents to keep the sight from sliding around while you try to fasten it either. So, an inconvenience that you deal with on an otherwise spectacular sight. If you can get an Ultima RC for the same $ as a WS-600 and don't mind the mounting inconvenience, then it's a no-brainer. However, it will NOT increase your scores. The WS-600 is as precise and as dependable as the Ultima, just a different design. Plus, the WS-600 has a carbon extension, which is less predisposed to transmitting vibration and noise, and a superior mounting block that is way more convenient.

I can shoot either sight, since my daughter isn't using it much these days. I haven't yet switched away from the WS-600 although many times I have thought about it.

-Kent W.


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## $wagitarias (Sep 6, 2016)

To answer the question posted 4 pages, it's all in how much you want to spend. The SF is good and so is the Shibuya I have used both and currently am using the SF Velocity, so wasup Shibuya. I have used said sight for years with no problems whatsoever. Yeah the Shibuya has more publicity, and therefore a larger following, but if your starting out the SF comes with a really good instruction sheet, and 8/32 and 10/32 mounting blocks. Just in case you want to use a magnifying aperture. Really great quality and super adjustable. In my opinion the Shibuya and W/W are second rate, the Truball Acxell is really the best, but has a $350 price tag. As before though, please get a different limb. Big fan of SF but the Axiom has a really low grade laminate. If I were you splurge on the riser and put a pair of SF premiums on it, they will not let you down.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

I started with an SF Velocity, I went to a Sure-Loc and a Davis I had for compound. The Sure-Loc costs a lot less than the Shibuya. Is one better than another? Not really. Another end to look at is the Axcel carbon but why? Shooters with sponsors don't have to concern themselves with cost, the rest of us do.
Addition parts for the Shibuya cost considerable more than the Sure-Loc or the Davis and that for me was a no brainer. Additional parts for the SF aren't available and that was a deal breaker.
My rule, ask why and if it makes sense do it, if it doesn't make sense forget it.


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## collider (Nov 3, 2015)

I have the dual click and the ultima. While you can't really go wrong with either, between the 2 I highly recommend going with the ultima (or standard for a better deal - I think the only difference is weight). There is an ease of use adjusting the ultima that you don't get on the dual click, everything feels smoother. Someone earlier mentioned no detents on the bar - I don't know if that's true for the aluminum, but detents do exist on the carbon bar, along with numbers that make tightening very easy and useful. The vertical adjustment is like butter on the ultima, and the fine tune adjustments are very precise. In my mind this adds up to comparing a ferrari to a volvo - both excellent, both do the job perfectly well, but you do get what you pay for in fit and finish.
For your other choices, SF Forged + definitely, and absolutely get the axiom limbs. @$wagitarias is missing the fact that this is a starter bow, you should get starter limbs that you should expect to grow out of, there is no need to spend money on anything more expensive until you settle in. The axioms are the best deal going, you will not find a better limb for a cheaper price (unless you get some amazing deal used...).


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

collider said:


> Someone earlier mentioned no detents on the bar - I don't know if that's true for the aluminum, ...


I have a Shibuya Ultima RC (all aluminum) and a W&W WS-600. The Ultima Standard has no detents on the bar. You select the position by threading the know through the desired hole on the extension, hence the reason you have to take the knob completely off to remove the sight from your bow.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Ultima STD uses same extension as Dual Click. But if you want to later go for carbon, you can buy the carbon extension, its mounting bit, mounting block and knob separate. Might be hard to find, and prove a bit expensive but at least you used to be able to buy them all as spares. My friend build a Dual Click with 12" carbon extension some years back.


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## $wagitarias (Sep 6, 2016)

Uhhhh sorry $wagitarias has missed nothing. Sure the Axiom limbs are cheap, but the price is totally not worth the performance. I used the Axiom limbs for a year, shot mediocre at best, switched to a Hoyt excel and noticed a distinct difference. I tested this twice switching limbs in the middle of practice. Hoyt just makes a better limb. Even better get a fivics srv or Gladius, you will thank me. No offense to anyone just validating my advice.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

They are both valid points. Excel limbs are maybe better, but you get two pairs of axioms for the price plus a bit of change left over, which will get you up poundage when you start. Your third or fourth pair will probably be somewhere around the poundage you will end up shooting, so that's the point when quality starts mattering.


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## huckduck (Nov 24, 2014)

some of it is in your head. Trust your equipment and you will do better. while yes better limbs feel better, i'm on the side where you shouldn't jump up until your 3rd or 4th pair


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