# Winner in MBR at Marengo score was dropped to a zero



## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

mike himself called the ibo and told them to pull his scorecard.


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## trinibob (Mar 10, 2004)

Wth??


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

Hmmm, not another visit to dramaville...


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

What? Why? What was his score in the first place? Crazy!


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

I heard he was being looked into for cheating so he had his score pulled. My buddy Chris ended up getting moved to first.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

What kind of bow did he shoot?


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1779391


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

Think he shot a 404.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1491497


disregard my bow question...


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

and
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1491725


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## 6rob4 (May 3, 2010)

archery is starting to become a damn joke.I have known mike jones for a few years and he would be the last person to cheat or even think of cheating. This is a stand up guy that has busted his ass to get where he is and would do anything to help anyone. I cant stand cheaters and I will stand up for jones all day long.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

6rob4 said:


> archery is starting to become a damn joke.I have known mike jones for a few years and he would be the last person to cheat or even think of cheating. This is a stand up guy that has busted his ass to get where he is and would do anything to help anyone. I cant stand cheaters and I will stand up for jones all day long.



Ok so please tell me why he was bumped from first?


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## S Triplet (Jan 22, 2010)

milkman38 said:


> mike himself called the ibo and told them to pull his scorecard.


Why would he do that???????? Sounds to me he very well deserves the win!!!!!!!


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

S Triplet said:


> Why would he do that???????? Sounds to me he very well deserves the win!!!!!!!


Either he felt guilty and thought he would be found out or he decided a belt buckle is not worth the drama and was offended by an accusation.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

here ya go hardcore and alpha, mike felt he took advantage of a situation on the course and took the higher call, was the diff between 1st and 2nd. he called to drop 100% on this own. if you feel u need to know more just call or pm him


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

milkman38 said:


> here ya go hardcore and alpha, mike felt he took advantage of a situation on the course and took the higher call, was the diff between 1st and 2nd. he called to drop 100% on this own. if you feel u need to know more just call or pm him


Thanks for the info, it did cause me to question what happened.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

i feel for him, he's what right for archery and not many guys would have gave it a second thought and took the win


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

I would agree with you but I do not know the situation, so I cannot comment. Do not care to know the situation, as long as it was not blatant out and out cheating. IN that case, he is not what is right for archery and he should withdraw from competition.


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

Crazy!!


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

milkman38 said:


> here ya go hardcore and alpha, mike felt he took advantage of a situation on the course and took the higher call, was the diff between 1st and 2nd. he called to drop 100% on this own. if you feel u need to know more just call or pm him


Interesting - but if others called his arrow, why would he feel it needed to be different?

Maybe Im just not understanding what you are saying.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

milkman38 said:


> here ya go hardcore and alpha, mike felt he took advantage of a situation on the course and took the higher call, was the diff between 1st and 2nd. he called to drop 100% on this own. if you feel u need to know more just call or pm him


If he could not accept the win because of his personal sense of fairness or honesty then he IS a winner! It is easy to make a mistake but it is very hard to publicly own up when not forced to do so. 

If he withdrew his score because he got busted........... The IBO needs to act.
It's not so hard to 'fess up if you are obviously busted.


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## rcrhoyt/mathews (Aug 11, 2008)

Mike Jones is a CLASS act to archery. He the Milkman & Brian Smith can flat out shoot their butts off any day of the week.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

Listen I'm not saying he cheated or he didn't I'm just saying what I heard, someone asked and I informed. It just raises a lot of suspicion when someone shoots 20 down the first leg then 41 down the second to finish with 4 up on the last and toughest leg. And as far a Brian Smith shoots 2 huge scores then he shoots way down on the last leg when it's peer grouped. Just kinda fishy and I heard that these guys shoot together. I just think the IBO needs to do a better job busting up groups then there will be no questions.


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

There were a couple questionable scores at Marango
There were some people that only shot one eight on the toughest course most of us had ever seen
And they were also not in peers


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## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

HardcoreArchery said:


> I just think the IBO needs to do a better job busting up groups then there will be no questions.


the book says that is YOUR responsibility to inform the table that you require busting, if you dont it is considered unsportsmanship and you should be DQ'd. in fairness to the table/registration folks, especially at national events , they have no way to know who are friends, who have never met, who are facebook buddies etc. i had a gent complain at a World Qualifier that Erie didnt bust his group why am i, and that says to me he has not read the book.
- the fashion of the day is to bad mouth the IBO for this or that, but as local and regional shooters we need to be aware, toe the line,follow the rules and bring good habits too the big shoots.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

Went to Erie this year for the first time in 15 years or so. Haven't gone since before my son was born. I saw some things that made me wonder................We probably won't do anymore Triple Crown shoots for the reasons mentioned in the last couple of post. Now the IBO Worlds is a different story, we really enjoy that shoot!! We are also going to the Regions Archery shoot this weekend, hoping for good things from them.


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## bowpro34 (Jun 17, 2007)

Same old problems at the same old IBO. Hoping for changes but we know that won't happen. The only way it gets fixed is if we stop going. I may have shot my last triple crown event. 


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

Don't know about all this. However, I shot with Chris for the first time ever at Marengo and I'll be the first to tell you that he flat out shot the course!! I don't know the guy that had the first place score dropped but have only heard good things about him from the other MBR shooters I know. I also know that all of this type of drama is not good for the IBO.


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

As for scores being up and down a lot of us in MBR was up and down this year. I didn't shoot great at any of them and kept getting worse every shoot. Marengo was by far the toughest shoot I had shot all year (and my score shows it). Set very well and made a lot of good archers look average. Some other guys may have just had a great day that didn't do so well at Erie or Bedford.


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

First off to those who have never met Mike you need keep your opini to yourself. Mike is by far the most stand up guy I know. And yes Mike can shoot. To the person who commented on how he did at Bedford and Erie maybe you should also know that on his way home from Bedford Mike was rushed to an ER in Indianapolis due to a severe inner ear infection. Hmmm could've affected his shooting don't you think? Mike was still under the weather and recovering at Erie. Maybe you should look at last years scores and see where Mike won Erie, or the year before when he finished 2nd at Bedford. An honest mistake was made and to avoid controversy Mike chose to forfeit the win.


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

Also to wpk....I shoot in AHC. Our toughest course according to most was I. I shot 3 up on that set dropping an 8 on the last target....yet J and K were both considered the easier of the 4. Those 2 courses alone I dropped 24 points on. Some guys prevail where others fail. Once again if you don't know the truth don't speculate or accuse because somewhere someone could be thinking the same thing about your score.


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

goofy2788 said:


> Also to wpk....I shoot in AHC. Our toughest course according to most was I. I shot 3 up on that set dropping an 8 on the last target....yet J and K were both considered the easier of the 4. Those 2 courses alone I dropped 24 points on. Some guys prevail where others fail. Once again if you don't know the truth don't speculate or accuse because somewhere someone could be thinking the same thing about your score.


Sorry that I implied he cheated that was not my intent and your right I don't know he's not even in my class
There was just a lot of people saying that stuff where the scores were posted 
But I would agree that was a stiff score on that corse


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

wpk said:


> Sorry that I implied he cheated that was not my intent and your right I don't know he's not even in my class
> There was just a lot of people saying that stuff where the scores were posted
> But I would agree that was a stiff score on that corse


Sorry to sound like such an azz but Mike is one of the guys I've looked up to in this sport and this thread has touched a nerve with me. Ask anyone who knows him personally or who has ever shot with him and they will tell you the same.


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## deer down (Feb 23, 2007)

mike is a stand up dude, im not sure on all the specifics, however if he felt he did something wrong or questionable, and he owned it. Well I can respect that. for someone to do that shows there is a moral compass and he had to make it right. there is alot of stuff that goes on in the ibo and for him to take ownership of something that was wrong, well i can tell ya im glad im not carrying around that on my brain and heart. look foward to seeing jones around the course, great guy and a great shot.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

What was the honest mistake?

Did i miss it? 

If we knew it may change somes view - or lessen my confusion.

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## mr_smith7410 (Feb 13, 2009)

HardcoreArchery said:


> Listen I'm not saying he cheated or he didn't I'm just saying what I heard, someone asked and I informed. It just raises a lot of suspicion when someone shoots 20 down the first leg then 41 down the second to finish with 4 up on the last and toughest leg. And as far a Brian Smith shoots 2 huge scores then he shoots way down on the last leg when it's peer grouped. Just kinda fishy and I heard that these guys shoot together. I just think the IBO needs to do a better job busting up groups then there will be no questions.


Must be you have never shot in peers. you ever think what kind of extra pressure is on a person in peers your shooting against the best in your class and trying to beat them.. Did any peer shoot great or better than what he had in the first two legs. The other 3 guys in my group didnt shoot that great, does that sound fishy too.. Ill be the first one to tell ya Im not happy with the way I shot I was more nervous than Ive ever been before at any shoot.. that is one of the thoughest courses youll ever see and Im glad it was no one wants a cupcake course to shoot for peers..


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

mr_smith7410 said:


> Must be you have never shot in peers. you ever think what kind of extra pressure is on a person in peers your shooting against the best in your class and trying to beat them.. Did any peer shoot great or better than what he had in the first two legs. The other 3 guys in my group didnt shoot that great, does that sound fishy too.. Ill be the first one to tell ya Im not happy with the way I shot I was more nervous than Ive ever been before at any shoot.. that is one of the thoughest courses youll ever see and Im glad it was no one wants a cupcake course to shoot for peers..


couldn't agree more. I got real nervous when I saw that turkey on N which was our first 10!! Wow, hit a 5 left!! haha. I was in the peer group with Abramsen and that dude can flat out shoot. He was 10 up going into the last 10 and shot a 5 and a few 8s . Great guy to shoot with as well. JW


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## mr_smith7410 (Feb 13, 2009)

mocheese said:


> couldn't agree more. I got real nervous when I saw that turkey on N which was our first 10!! Wow, hit a 5 left!! haha. I was in the peer group with Abramsen and that dude can flat out shoot. He was 10 up going into the last 10 and shot a 5 and a few 8s . Great guy to shoot with as well. JW


LOL yeah that turkey I got up to shoot and said HUH thats a different zip code put my big pin over the ten and still hit low but I was shooting low all day and was too stuborn to adjust it when I got off the course oh well another thing learned


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

hey guys, I have never met this guy but I can tell you what the IBO said to me when they called me yesterday. The IBO told me the first place score was pulled because the archer admitted that he was pulling arrows without his group and calling his own scores higher than what he actually had.

again, that's right from the IBO


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## S Triplet (Jan 22, 2010)

XTRMN8R said:


> hey guys, I have never met this guy but I can tell you what the IBO said to me when they called me yesterday. The IBO told me the first place score was pulled because the archer admitted that he was pulling arrows without his group and calling his own scores higher than what he actually had.
> 
> again, that's right from the IBO


Who are you and why would the IBO tell you that???????


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## f166 (Oct 9, 2009)

I shot with jones and smith at erie and they are the real deal and showed me blue fiber witch at home on Mckenzie I shoot green and no problem Rinehart I can't see my pins so I switch for Ohio and it worked I shot 1 up and no buddy's and my hole team started shooting Saturday and I just missed out of peers and buy the way course n 5 on bird and 9 down at one point fisrt 11 target 9 that's how it started


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

f166 said:


> I shot with jones and smith at erie and they are the real deal and showed me blue fiber witch at home on Mckenzie I shoot green and no problem Rinehart I can't see my pins so I switch for Ohio and it worked I shot 1 up and no buddy's and my hole team started shooting Saturday and I just missed out of peers and buy the way course n 5 on bird and 9 down at one point fisrt 11 target 9 that's how it started


I want to understand this, I am having trouble. Did you switch to blue fiber optic at the suggestion of jones and smith?


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## f166 (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes blue is a lot cleaner on Reinhardt targets


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

This is WAY off track, but, are you using an LP light kit or shooting them without light?


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

the bottom line is, in my opinion, people that are honest and shoot legit scores don't call and have their own scores pulled down. Period.


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## f166 (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes lp light every shot and 10 thousands pins


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

XTRMN8R said:


> the bottom line is, in my opinion, people that are honest and shoot legit scores don't call and have their own scores pulled down. Period.


Does make you question how it came about, the day he signed the scorecard and turned it in it was counted. Day or two later it was retracted. I can see where you are coming from, seems to be a lot of people vouching for him though?


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## blinginpse (Jun 21, 2011)

U boys wanna argue get the mike guy.on.here n.explain


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## f166 (Oct 9, 2009)

Maybe mike's group messed up and he is the most honest


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## deer down (Feb 23, 2007)

This right here. I spoke with mike this week and I can tell ya he feels a great amount of remorse for his action and delt with them as they should be. The guy sounded like he had ran over a puppy when I spoke with him. Jones is a good guy who made a poor choice. Now he is dealing with the consequences. I know the archery talk crowd will call for his head. There isnt a person who feels worse about it than he does. Anyone who knows mike or has had the pleasure of shooting with him knows he is a good dude. I hope the archery community will forgive him. He is human and knows his choices were wrong. I personally hope to see him oit on the range next year.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I have been shooting MBR for a long time and seen many great archers come and go! Some have good days and some have bad, the one thing people forget is the archers in most divisions have a good idea who is on their game any given year and I have to admit some of the guys that showed up this year were shooting pretty good scores for move ups in the division and that will always raise some suspicion. I find you always have to prove yourself in this sport. I am glad either way that the right thing was done! Mike if that was solely your choice to have your scores pulled because the guilt of doing something wrong got to you and not because you we're caught, Kudos to you! I can't speak to your character, but this was the right thing to do if what I have heard is true. Most of it just boils down to bad optics and this only fules the fire for suspicious people.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

S Triplet said:


> Who are you and why would the IBO tell you that???????


He was moved to 3rd place after mike pulled his score so the IBO called the explain the situation with the awards because there were some other changes to the team results as well.


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## garchery1 (Mar 23, 2006)

Well "hardcore archery" people saying pencil whipping is involved in Ibo is without a doubt true im sure But also there is times when people have off days. I shoot MBR, shoot top ten in Bedford, then dropped almost 20points in Erie then shot the worst score ever in Columbus, which was in peer groups, not nervous not a good score because I couldn't cheat just plane out stunk it up, and shot with a a guy in peers that also shot his worse score. **** happens, few bad shots can take you from top ten to bottom ten. So saying how some guy blew it up then dropped is a cheater is far from the truth. Yes IBO should bust groups better but saying good shooters cheat when they have off days isn't fair to the ones like me that don't cheat but are not 100% at every shoot. That's why we are in the amateur class and not shooting against the Levi Morgan's of archery. Your more then welcome to shoot with me anytime.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

deer down said:


> This right here. I spoke with mike this week and I can tell ya he feels a great amount of remorse for his action and delt with them as they should be. The guy sounded like he had ran over a puppy when I spoke with him. Jones is a good guy who made a poor choice. Now he is dealing with the consequences. I know the archery talk crowd will call for his head. There isnt a person who feels worse about it than he does. Anyone who knows mike or has had the pleasure of shooting with him knows he is a good dude. I hope the archery community will forgive him. He is human and knows his choices were wrong. I personally hope to see him oit on the range next year.


Im now even more perplexed......early in the thread we have friends of his vouching that nothing was done wrong, an honest mistake, didnt want controversy, etc.

The above post sounds differently.

Id still like to know exactly what was done, or what advantage he took before i make any.opinion on the matter

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## southpaw3d (Jan 19, 2003)

Wow, this sounds familar, the exact same thing happened to me last year. I don't know Mike, but I just want to tell him to keep his head up and keep shooting, don't let these armchair archer's get to you, .........I did, and I didn't shoot this year because of it. I competed in the IBO tounaments for over 18 years and I let some idots get to me and I stopped shooting because of it. I really miss competeing and will probably be back next year. A good friend of mine, who is no longer with us, once told me, " If your not shooting well, or not winning, than no one will talk about you, but when you start to have people talking about you, you must be shooting well." Oh how true this is, especially on this SITE!!!!!!!!!


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## BROX (Sep 29, 2005)

I've met Mike and he is a super nice guy.From what i understand he was shooting good and made an honest mistake not even thinking and he fixed the mistake by pulling his card and until that is proven diffrent to me then thats what i am believing.I think that Mike is a stand up guy for doing this and making it right


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

southpaw3d said:


> Wow, this sounds familar, the exact same thing happened to me last year. I don't know Mike, but I just want to tell him to keep his head up and keep shooting, don't let these armchair archer's get to you, .........I did, and I didn't shoot this year because of it. I competed in the IBO tounaments for over 18 years and I let some idots get to me and I stopped shooting because of it. I really miss competeing and will probably be back next year. A good friend of mine, who is no longer with us, once told me, " If your not shooting well, or not winning, than no one will talk about you, but when you start to have people talking about you, you must be shooting well." Oh how true this is, especially on this SITE!!!!!!!!!




Your saying you cheated- fessed up to it. Then we should be sympathetic that "some idiots" made in not fun for you??


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

Ok those that want details here they are. Mike was pulling and scoring arrows for his group. In his group were some guys he knew, in the group behind him were more guys he knew. On one target Mike pulled the arrows before the group was all present. At the time there was 3 10's and 1 11. Mike was a 10. The group discussed it and agreed the scores were correct and moved on. Mike ended up shooting 4 up. Not a huge score, not an unbeatable score. He turned his cards in early Saturday before peers were done or most of the class scores were known. He then left for home 9am Sunday morning, he didn't think his score would win or even come close. (Sounds like a guy who tried to cheat so far doesn't it) Scores got posted late Sunday. He called IBO on Monday and talked to Bryan about what happened. After the discussion it was agreed upon to pull his score because he did break a rule. One of the guts in his group after finding out called the IBO in support of Mike and verified that he took the correct score. 

Now there you have the details. I'm sure some here won't believe them but since I've spoken to Mike and someone else who was in that group who said the same thing I believe them both. 

The IBO rule that was broken should have called for Mike to take a zero on that target. That's where he was given points because the guys he was shooting with agreed that was his correct score.


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## southpaw3d (Jan 19, 2003)

NO, what I'm saying is I was acussed of cheating, and everything got blown up, into this huge debate, when " the IDIOTS", started talking about things they knew nothing about.............understand now???????


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

goofy2788 said:


> Ok those that want details here they are. Mike was pulling and scoring arrows for his group. In his group were some guys he knew, in the group behind him were more guys he knew. On one target Mike pulled the arrows before the group was all present. At the time there was 3 10's and 1 11. Mike was a 10. The group discussed it and agreed the scores were correct and moved on. Mike ended up shooting 4 up. Not a huge score, not an unbeatable score. He turned his cards in early Saturday before peers were done or most of the class scores were known. He then left for home 9am Sunday morning, he didn't think his score would win or even come close. (Sounds like a guy who tried to cheat so far doesn't it) Scores got posted late Sunday. He called IBO on Monday and talked to Bryan about what happened. After the discussion it was agreed upon to pull his score because he did break a rule. One of the guts in his group after finding out called the IBO in support of Mike and verified that he took the correct score.
> 
> Now there you have the details. I'm sure some here won't believe them but since I've spoken to Mike and someone else who was in that group who said the same thing I believe them both.
> 
> The IBO rule that was broken should have called for Mike to take a zero on that target. That's where he was given points because the guys he was shooting with agreed that was his correct score.


Thank you......now i understand completely.

If all at the stake agree on the calls i think the outcome was pretty harsh. However if everyone in the group were buddies i suppose i can see it being this way. Im sure we all been in similar situations, all clearly see from the stake they are 10s or whatever and arrows pulled.

One thing with IBO payouts arent worth fighting over in this case. 

Thanks again......didnt mean to hound but the crypticness of it all was hard for me to have sny type of opinion

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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

goofy2788 said:


> Ok those that want details here they are. Mike was pulling and scoring arrows for his group. In his group were some guys he knew, in the group behind him were more guys he knew. On one target Mike pulled the arrows before the group was all present. At the time there was 3 10's and 1 11. Mike was a 10. The group discussed it and agreed the scores were correct and moved on. Mike ended up shooting 4 up. Not a huge score, not an unbeatable score. He turned his cards in early Saturday before peers were done or most of the class scores were known. He then left for home 9am Sunday morning, he didn't think his score would win or even come close. (Sounds like a guy who tried to cheat so far doesn't it) Scores got posted late Sunday. He called IBO on Monday and talked to Bryan about what happened. After the discussion it was agreed upon to pull his score because he did break a rule. One of the guts in his group after finding out called the IBO in support of Mike and verified that he took the correct score.
> 
> Now there you have the details. I'm sure some here won't believe them but since I've spoken to Mike and someone else who was in that group who said the same thing I believe them both.
> 
> The IBO rule that was broken should have called for Mike to take a zero on that target. That's where he was given points because the guys he was shooting with agreed that was his correct score.


WOW! I have to agree with every one on here about Mikes rep as a stand up guy after hearing this. I do not see where he took advantage of the situation though, especially since he was not the one with the eleven in that instance, many times arrows can be called from a distance without great scrutinization. It is the liners and benders that need inspected. So this was just a miscommunication among scorekeeper and puller, wow! Not sure I would have made the call, kudo's to Mike.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

goofy2788 said:


> Ok those that want details here they are. Mike was pulling and scoring arrows for his group. In his group were some guys he knew, in the group behind him were more guys he knew. On one target Mike pulled the arrows before the group was all present. At the time there was 3 10's and 1 11. Mike was a 10. The group discussed it and agreed the scores were correct and moved on. Mike ended up shooting 4 up. Not a huge score, not an unbeatable score. He turned his cards in early Saturday before peers were done or most of the class scores were known. He then left for home 9am Sunday morning, he didn't think his score would win or even come close. (Sounds like a guy who tried to cheat so far doesn't it) Scores got posted late Sunday. He called IBO on Monday and talked to Bryan about what happened. After the discussion it was agreed upon to pull his score because he did break a rule. One of the guts in his group after finding out called the IBO in support of Mike and verified that he took the correct score.
> 
> Now there you have the details. I'm sure some here won't believe them but since I've spoken to Mike and someone else who was in that group who said the same thing I believe them both.
> 
> The IBO rule that was broken should have called for Mike to take a zero on that target. That's where he was given points because the guys he was shooting with agreed that was his correct score.


Good for Mike........ You have to be real careful of these type of situations because even the "appearance" of possibly cheating can bite you in the butt. I try to be real careful to make sure everything is "clear" before any arrow is even touched. You never know when someone in your group will get their panties in a bunch over something you feel is trivial or obvious.


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## nickel shooter5 (Dec 26, 2009)

People are crucifing Mike for braking a rule and manning up to it when some of them are guilty of braking rules too. Like moving your sight on the course or shooting in unbusted groups. All just as wrong as what Mike did. Dont throw stones if you live in a glass house. Just saying


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

hey, I don't want to rain on the big love fest here but I think you are all missing the point. My understanding of the situation as explained to me by the IBO is that He Cheated. last I checked marking a score that you did not shoot is cheating! it doesn't matter if you pull your own score because you feel guilty or the lady behind you threatens to expose you and you pull your own score, its still cheating! 
are you guys all getting the story clearly now.

Look, I spend a lot of time practicing and a lot of money to travel to these events. I compete against some solid stand up archers who feel the same way...no one wants to get beat by a sharp pencil, a range finder, guys discussing yardage or anything else that isn't up to par.

I have a ton of respect for the guys out there that have put years of dedication into this class and archery in general and I don't want to see it the IBO or any of us guys in MBR torn down because of sheer greed and stupidity. If you want to win go practice, put in your best effort and if you are good enough you will win and if not be proud you finished where you did Honestly...the first time.

sorry for my rant but I am passionate about this sport and I can tell you I still feel the sting after being cheated in Nelsonville by a guy caught with a range finder...again...and he was finally tossed out of the ibo last year I believe thankfully.


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## sahrpshooter (Aug 6, 2007)

XTRMN8R said:


> hey guys, I have never met this guy but I can tell you what the IBO said to me when they called me yesterday. The IBO told me the first place score was pulled because the archer admitted that he was pulling arrows without his group and calling his own scores higher than what he actually had.
> 
> again, that's right from the IBO


Everyone seems to be forgetting what the IBO told this guy. There has been a lot of assumption on here about what did happen. I can say one thing why would the IBO lie? If you want the facts call them, not the person that is in question.


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

sahrpshooter said:


> Everyone seems to be forgetting what the IBO told this guy. There has been a lot of assumption on here about what did happen. I can say one thing why would the IBO lie? If you want the facts call them, not the person that is in question.


The facts are stated above. Believe what you wish but those are the facts. I do know the person involved and I also know some that was in the group with him. Yes a rule was broken and said person who broke that rule owned up to it and accepted the results. Yet you computer archers still try to crucify him. The rule broken was that arrows were pulled before all archers were present at the target. Do you know what the penalty for that is???? I'm betting you don't. In fact I bet bet 98% of the archers out there have no clue. The penalty is that target should be scored a zero. So in reality Mike should of had a 10 point deduction to his score instead he chose to remove his score completely. I will go further....any one of you that don't know Mike find him next year and shoot with him. I have and I've seen what kind of shot he is. If after you've done that and you still feel the same then come on here and say what you'd like.

To the guy above who ended up 3rd. Congrats to you on a great job.


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## deer down (Feb 23, 2007)

XTRMN8R said:


> hey, I don't want to rain on the big love fest here but I think you are all missing the point. My understanding of the situation as explained to me by the IBO is that He Cheated. last I checked marking a score that you did not shoot is cheating! it doesn't matter if you pull your own score because you feel guilty or the lady behind you threatens to expose you and you pull your own score, its still cheating!
> are you guys all getting the story clearly now.
> 
> Look, I spend a lot of time practicing and a lot of money to travel to these events. I compete against some solid stand up archers who feel the same way...no one wants to get beat by a sharp pencil, a range finder, guys discussing yardage or anything else that isn't up to par.
> ...


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2031752&highlight=bedford correct me if im wrong but if you go on the course, shoot your first target, shoot a 5, then realize you forgot to set your sight in the right hole, adjust it and continue shooting. that is a direct violation of the mbr class rules or cheating! its definitely no equip failure. its moving your sight on the course. im all ears, but im sure yall wont have the backbone to call the ibo on yourself..


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey Brian do you even know who you are talking to! Obviously not and yes is is equipment failure when your sight is not tight!! You should really stay out of this because your whole team should have been DQ'ed in Erie but I won't go there because I did not start this **** and don't care to be a part of it!! Your team member got caught so own it and move on! Congrats on the triple crown win you deserve it.


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

I have an Idea, next year everyone should shoot at the same time with all the people in your class. You have Friday to travel to the shoot
No more throwing people in peer groups, when your group is already set..This way you can have a shooting order and follow it.. not have someone shoot first every target....
Every one shoot on Saturday and Sunday...No more shooting on Friday making people take more vacation days... 
Not have teams shoot together...or have some one go out shoot (scout) all of them and talk about the range for the next day...this has to stop, happens in every class

Lets eliminate all the talking, shoot 30 the first and 10 the next day no matter what...30 targets are the most you want to shoot if you really want to compete...Vendors can have people hang out...camp out and have some fun, Marengo is an awesome place, wish the others place were set up like that


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

Bigjim67 said:


> I have an Idea, next year everyone should shoot at the same time with all the people in your class. You have Friday to travel to the shoot
> No more throwing people in peer groups, when your group is already set..This way you can have a shooting order and follow it.. not have someone shoot first every target....
> Every one shoot on Saturday and Sunday...No more shooting on Friday making people take more vacation days...
> Not have teams shoot together...or have some one go out shoot (scout) all of them and talk about the range for the next day...this has to stop, happens in every class
> ...


I agree but shoot 20 and 20


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## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

Let those among us without sin cast the first stone.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

Man, judges and range officials could clear up so many disagreements. IF they were used.


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## f166 (Oct 9, 2009)

Peer groups after Bedford would clear up a lot of things


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

f166 said:


> Peer groups after Bedford would clear up a lot of things


Possibly, not all peer groups are busted by friendships. Peer groups based on scores. Impartial, uninterested 3rd party official would be the best in my opinion.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

Alpha Burnt said:


> Man, judges and range officials could clear up so many disagreements. IF they were used.


:set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2:judges and range officials at an IBO event that's funny cought me off guard I laughed so hard I think I pooped a little.


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## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

f166 said:


> Peer groups after Bedford would clear up a lot of things


Until this happens...IBO shoots are just BIG local shoots..Come shoot with your buddies and have a good time...Been like this for as long as I can remember.

Keep your head up Jones....:shade:


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

ahcnc said:


> Until this happens...IBO shoots are just BIG local shoots..Come shoot with your buddies and have a good time...Been like this for as long as I can remember.
> 
> Keep your head up Jones....:shade:


a few years ago in Erie momma and I saw at least 3 groups shooting together who were all wearing shirts from either the same shop or club no attempt what so ever to break up those groups by the IBO.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

f166 said:


> Peer groups after Bedford would clear up a lot of things


I am all for this and have said it for years!


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm not bashing ibo it's a fine organization but they need to tweak the format to gain credibility. A little more Asa influence would be a good thing.


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

goofy2788 said:


> The facts are stated above. Believe what you wish but those are the facts. I do know the person involved and I also know some that was in the group with him. Yes a rule was broken and said person who broke that rule owned up to it and accepted the results. Yet you computer archers still try to crucify him. The rule broken was that arrows were pulled before all archers were present at the target. Do you know what the penalty for that is???? I'm betting you don't. In fact I bet bet 98% of the archers out there have no clue. The penalty is that target should be scored a zero. So in reality Mike should of had a 10 point deduction to his score instead he chose to remove his score completely. I will go further....any one of you that don't know Mike find him next year and shoot with him. I have and I've seen what kind of shot he is. If after you've done that and you still feel the same then come on here and say what you'd like.*
> 
> This is a load of bs. Either you have been misinformed or you are blatantly lying to cover for your buddy. Either way you should watch what you say. Just an interesting fact im gonna throw out there...the guy you quoted and called a "computer archer" is one of the guys that actually was in the group that day. How do i know this you may ask...because i was also in that group. What the IBO told XTRMN8R is the facts. jones was pulling arrows without the group and giving himself higher scores than he deserved. Unfortunately neither I, nor anyone in the group had the gumption to say anything during the shoot and for that we are all embarrassed. Being my first year on a bow company’s staff, i felt uneasy challenging someone that was/is an important figure in the company. That was a mistake on my part and no excuse, for this I apologize. The group’s conscience weighed heavy and that night and the subsequent day jones was told that we were embarrassed of his actions and that he needed to fess up to what he had done. Shortly thereafter he pulled his score and honestly felt and looked remorseful. Throughout the week a few of us have seen the story of what happened, especially*within the g5 staffers, turn from where "jones did wrong" to now*where he is*"what is right for archery" as ive seen posted in this thread. Well for one I am sick of it. I had respect for mike even after he cheated because he turned himself in, but after the contorting of the story and blatant lying ive seen and heard from people including mike, ive lost respect for him and many of the people that have commented on this page. I know most won’t care because I am a nobody in the archery world and will never be, but I refuse to let my name be tarnished any further than what I have already done myself.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

hossa1881 said:


> goofy2788 said:
> 
> 
> > The facts are stated above. Believe what you wish but those are the facts. I do know the person involved and I also know some that was in the group with him. Yes a rule was broken and said person who broke that rule owned up to it and accepted the results. Yet you computer archers still try to crucify him. The rule broken was that arrows were pulled before all archers were present at the target. Do you know what the penalty for that is???? I'm betting you don't. In fact I bet bet 98% of the archers out there have no clue. The penalty is that target should be scored a zero. So in reality Mike should of had a 10 point deduction to his score instead he chose to remove his score completely. I will go further....any one of you that don't know Mike find him next year and shoot with him. I have and I've seen what kind of shot he is. If after you've done that and you still feel the same then come on here and say what you'd like.*
> ...


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

HardcoreArchery said:


> Good for you that you came forward with the TRUTH. I knew the story from someone that was there but because I wasn't there myself I felt it wasn't my place to say anything. Now for the whole G5 team I believe they all shot together for the first leg maybe 2 which is a violation of the rules and they should all be DQ'd. This stuff has to stop and with one of the teammates cheating looks bad for all of them no wonder why they are trying to cover it up. I guess we will see at the world's but I will suspect there scores will be much lower then the first 2 legs. Pretty disgusting that people feel the need to cheat and rob the guys that really won!


I wouldnt go as far to lump everyone together because I have seen for my own eyes some of these guys shoot absolutely amazing shoot after shoot. Brian Smith and I were going head to head last year in the MI ASA state shoot and I have never seen someone shoot so well. I watched him shoot from 10 points down of me halfway through the shoot to come back and win by 6 points. those last 10 or so targets, every time i would hit a 12 he would pound a 14 until he finally overtook me in the last 2 targets. That was some of the most fun ive ever had and i really wish i could get back to it instead of dealing with all this bs. All i ask is please dont take something one guy did and try to use it against the rest of them because there are some really stand up shooters in the group.


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## bonecollector76 (Apr 23, 2005)

Thank you for coming forward and doing what my wife and I hoped, if given the opportunity, Mike would do himself. Very disappointed in Mike for letting it go this far. Very proud of you for making it right.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

Wow what happened to all the guys defending him?????????


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I think the parties involved have all had time to hatch this out and many fences have been mended in private as they should have been all along. Some more facts came to light and I think most are on the same page now. Hopefully this goes to rest now as it is detrimental to the IBO and some people posting here without the facts. I really hope this serves to stop those who feel compelled to cheat and steal from those who put the time in to be sucsessfull at the sport. Good luck to all at the worlds and hope to see everyone there.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Yep, getting caught cheating today is nothing like it was before ArcheryTalk. Back in the day guys would get busted and there was so much smoke and mirrors it was about impossible to know exactly what had happened. Now eye witnesses can come on ArcheryTalk and blow all the smoke away. I've seen this more than a few times on AT. 

Putting a "spin" on things isn't such a good idea sometimes as that only leads to more misunderstanding!

It's not so easy now to avoid being exposed to the world and consequently beat down......... However, some times it goes on for too long.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Yep, getting caught cheating today is nothing like it was before ArcheryTalk. Back in the day guys would get busted and there was so much smoke and mirrors it was about impossible to know exactly what had happened. Now eye witnesses can come on ArcheryTalk and blow all the smoke away. I've seen this more than a few times on AT.
> 
> Putting a "spin" on things isn't such a good idea sometimes as that only leads to more misunderstanding!
> 
> It's not so easy now to avoid being exposed to the world and consequently beat down......... However, some times it goes on for too long.


Archery a small community and truth always comes to the top especially when it comes to cheating.
DB


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

It was cheating to win 
He should be band 
It's no different then using a range finder
Until there are stiffer penalties for cheaters it won't stop


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

hossa1881 said:


> goofy2788 said:
> 
> 
> > The facts are stated above. Believe what you wish but those are the facts. I do know the person involved and I also know some that was in the group with him. Yes a rule was broken and said person who broke that rule owned up to it and accepted the results. Yet you computer archers still try to crucify him. The rule broken was that arrows were pulled before all archers were present at the target. Do you know what the penalty for that is???? I'm betting you don't. In fact I bet bet 98% of the archers out there have no clue. The penalty is that target should be scored a zero. So in reality Mike should of had a 10 point deduction to his score instead he chose to remove his score completely. I will go further....any one of you that don't know Mike find him next year and shoot with him. I have and I've seen what kind of shot he is. If after you've done that and you still feel the same then come on here and say what you'd like.*
> ...


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Do the crime, pay the time. lain:


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## ACE430 (May 19, 2006)

I think that wpk said just what I was thinking. We need stiffer penalties for those who cheat in any way. I have lost some interest in going to the big shoots because of cheating. I was once told by one of the best target archers that if you are not trying to cheat then you are not trying to win.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

ACE430 said:


> I think that wpk said just what I was thinking. We need stiffer penalties for those who cheat in any way. I have lost some interest in going to the big shoots because of cheating. I was once told by one of the best target archers that if you are not trying to cheat then you are not trying to win.


You must know some of the old school archers! The stuff that went on back in the day is amazing and some of the "players" are still worshiped.
- Loading up certain arrows so they shoot much slower through the chrony.
- "Tiller tuning" on the range......i.e., backing out limb bolts
- Slipping into or behind an outhouse as the range officials approach with a chrony. See "tiller tuning".
- Fiber mysteriously breaking from a sight of an amateur that is ahead of a big name!
- peeps mysteriously moving
- Sneaking onto ranges to get target distances. This happened much more than people think!
- Marking bino lens to help range targets.
- Marking bino focus knobs to help range targets.
- Using marks on the bow to range targets.
- Using marks on fingers or finger nails to help range targets.
- An audience member signalling target distance to a shooter. Non-shooters are not allowed on the course until shooting begins.
- Buddies passing target distance to buddies. Hence, sight marks must be covered.
- Visitors taking target pics and marking yardages to pass along.
.
.
.
.
This list could go on for a long time........ A lot of the rules of the game came from people outright cheating. The names of some of the "players" would surprise many people.

It is MUCH harder to cheat at ASA tournaments!! The IBO format can be a joke.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Archery a small community and truth always comes to the top especially when it comes to cheating.
> DB


Sort of........ When ArcheryTalk was much younger I know of a couple of scandals that people attempted to cover up or to spin them so it didn't sound so bad. It all came to light though because the witnesses spoke up on AT!!! 

I know the NFAA absolutely despised, maybe still does, AT. They really didn't like membership knowing the truth about how the organization is managed and how they run or don't run tournaments! If it weren't for AT I know at least a couple of flat out known cheaters that would have received NO disciplinary action from the NFAA.


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

Been shooting mbr along time Im at a lost for words. Withe what i seen that went on at the worlds last year and now this its my last year in mbr maybe even the ibo He needs a 1 year ban period


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

Deer Slayer I said:


> Been shooting mbr along time Im at a lost for words. Withe what i seen that went on at the worlds last year and now this its my last year in mbr maybe even the ibo He needs a 1 year ban
> 
> At a minimum one year
> This cheating stuff has to stop it is going to ruin archery


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Sort of........ When ArcheryTalk was much younger I know of a couple of scandals that people attempted to cover up or to spin them so it didn't sound so bad. It all came to light though because the witnesses spoke up on AT!!!
> 
> I know the NFAA absolutely despised, maybe still does, AT. They really didn't like membership knowing the truth about how the organization is managed and how they run or don't run tournaments! If it weren't for AT I know at least a couple of flat out known cheaters that would have received NO disciplinary action from the NFAA.


Totally agree!
DB


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

I've always supported the IBO and love shooting in the MBR class and met some great guys doing it. However, this year has me seriously considering shooting some ASA shoots next year. Actually I'm pretty sure I will be shooting ASA next year. Have to travel a little farther but at least if I were to win I may be able to cover the expense of the weekend. You can't even break even if you win one of the IBO shoots and every shoot someone is either cheating or being accused of it. Looking forward to a change next year.


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

Score keepers should have stepped right up and made it clear the first time it happened that it wasn't to happen again. No arrows should be pulled until they are score by both keepers on their cards. Rules are pretty clear here. 

You see it happening at times when one group is chatting with another and accidents do happen. If it happened more then once it was a true atempt to influence the score. More then once it was cheating and should be dealt with as such. Only the group themselves know for sure but again it could have been stop quickly and with out any confrontation.

Accident, then it was pretty harsh. Who hasn't called back score at a local with out them standing right.. right there?


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