# Hoyt shooters question



## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

I don't pay any mind to ATA, and brace height unless they are obviously well out of spec (like hornet had earlier this year)
I set up, and tune a lot of Hoyt's. For a while I was doing a lot of the tuning work for Texas A&M''s archery team Now I am doing some for the JMU team.
When I set up a Hoyt I pay close attention to the following:
1. AMO draw length
2. peak weight
3. let off
4. cam timing/rotation
I have found over the year that if you get those 4 stars aligned the bow will be shooting the best it can possibly shoot.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

On my VE im running all my cables and string 1/2" short.... using 50lb limbs... With the lighter deflection it pulled the ata in just over an inch and added about 6-7lbs depending on how I want my cams to lay Cant remember how much brace height it added... But it is a whole new machine now!!! 

Then again those who know me know the 1st thing I do is take a bow out of spec....:wink:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> On my VE im running all my cables and string 1/2" short.... using 50lb limbs... With the lighter deflection it pulled the ata in just over an inch and added about 6-7lbs depending on how I want my cams to lay Cant remember how much brace height it added... But it is a whole new machine now!!!
> 
> Then again those who know me know the 1st thing I do is take a bow out of spec....:wink:


When I got this bow it was 1/2" short on all the string and cables using C2 cams. When I switched it to SpiralXs, I went to the factory string length to keep near the same DW. I'm thinking I'm starting to wish I had short strung this one a little now. It's still shooting well so far. But it's not shooting 600+ grain 2712s anymore either. Feels a little different.:zip:


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

wow,
for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time? 
btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Boy you sure picked the wrong forum to show off that attitude....this is going to get good!!!

 



scclimber said:


> wow,
> for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time?
> btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

"boy"?... "attitude"?...
if the manufacturers thought the bows shot better out of spec, they would change the specs. if you dont want to shoot 4's, dont put the sight in the white and pull the trigger.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

scclimber said:


> wow,
> for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time?
> btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


Thank you Mr. Cousins for such an insightful post. I'm sure there are thousands of Pro Shop techs that can now join the masses in the unemployment line since the factories have done all the work for them and set these bows up for us. 

Man I feel better now knowing that.




scclimber said:


> "boy"?... "attitude"?...
> if the manufacturers thought the bows shot better out of spec, they would change the specs. if you dont want to shoot 4's, dont put the sight in the white and pull the trigger.


Here you go ladies and gentlemen!!!! The Secrets of Field archery laid out for us all to take in. Who knew it was so darned easy??


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

i'm not saying everything is perfect out of the box but twisting cables isn't going to make a bad shot go in the middle. 
btw, it can be as easy or as hard as you make it.
ps, i like your avatar


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## blondstar (Aug 15, 2006)

scclimber said:


> "boy"?... "attitude"?...
> if the manufacturers thought the bows shot better out of spec, they would change the specs. if you dont want to shoot 4's, dont put the sight in the white and pull the trigger.


Bows are massed produced, not archers, I have never got a bow right out of the box that was in time and ready to shoot, yes they may get them close to the advertised "specs" but I have always modified my bow in some way. Archers have there own way of changing there bows to what suits them and feels comfortable to them. i do not think we should be giving them crap if they change them in any certain way!! Unless you are shooting 300 and 60xs all the time or perfect F/H rounds all the time, then I am sorry for possibly insulting you.


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

blondstar said:


> Bows are massed produced, not archers, I have never got a bow right out of the box that was in time and ready to shoot, yes they may get them close to the advertised "specs" but I have always modified my bow in some way. Archers have there own way of changing there bows to what suits them and feels comfortable to them. i do not think we should be giving them crap if they change them in any certain way!! Unless you are shooting 300 and 60xs all the time or perfect F/H rounds all the time, then I am sorry for possibly insulting you.


what do my scores have to do with my opinions on training?


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> On my VE im running all my cables and string 1/2" short.... using 50lb limbs... With the lighter deflection it pulled the ata in just over an inch and added about 6-7lbs depending on how I want my cams to lay Cant remember how much brace height it added... But it is a whole new machine now!!!
> 
> Then again those who know me know the 1st thing I do is take a bow out of spec....:wink:





scclimber said:


> wow,
> for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time?
> btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.



Well being as he IS the reining NFAA AMFS outdoor champion I'm gonna say yeah he knows how to tweak the bow for his liking.


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## tabarch (Sep 20, 2006)

what does training have to do with bow setup, they are two completly different things, Spoon wasn't asking about training he was asking about the setup.




scclimber said:


> what do my scores have to do with my opinions on training?


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

BOWGOD said:


> Well being as he IS the reining NFAA AMFS outdoor champion I'm gonna say yeah he knows how to tweak the bow for his liking.


i agree, fit is the most important part of the equation. that being said, i bet no one else can shoot his bow like he can. 
if i may ask, how much time do the top level shooters spend screwing with equipment? i would think the time is much better spent on mental management, shot process and visualization.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

scclimber said:


> ...btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


I disagree. 

Generally I find a bow needs a thorough "going over" if I'm not getting the scores I deserve...those arrows that go off in the bullseye, but don't score 5, 10, 21, or whatever the high score is for that target. Sometimes I can tweak the bow to give me scores that I do deserve, though I hope to do better in the long run and continue to see what scores I can milk out of that particular setup.

I quit tuning and farting around with it when I score better than I deserve...those shots that are in the white on the field target, but end up in the black with just a wee bit of english. Alot of the "improvements" are imperceptable (like a 1/2 twist off of the control cable) to me. I can't even explain some of them other than to use the unquantifiable term of "forgiveness", and maybe a little luck. 

Then again, sometimes I'm not in the mood to play with it or just don't like that particular bow. When that happens, I'm perfectly happy with having the arrow hit right where I'm aiming.


FWIW, mine typically end up on the short side of ATA as well. I don't really go crazy on just shortening though.


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

Bobmuley said:


> Then again, sometimes I'm not in the mood to play with it or just don't like that particular bow. When that happens, I'm perfectly happy with having the arrow hit right where I'm aiming.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

scclimber said:


> that is an interesting statement. i have always strived to get the arrow to hit where i'm aiming. so you are saying you can get a bow to shoot inside of the point of aim? i come from a competitive rifle background so that is new to me. do these results just come from trial and error or is there a method to achieving them?
> thanks


I can't put any enlish on a bullet. :wink: I don't know that it's doing anything other than fitting the bow to me and my style. I am *NOT* a steady dead nuts aimer (yes, it should be underlined, capitalized, and bold). My highest field score, which I don't do near enough of, is a 545. The thing is, I hold like a 520 shooter. 

I do it the same way I get it to hit where I hold via group tuning, only I go further and make it score the best it can in MY hands. A little trial and error (with everything - poundage, draw length, tillers, timing, etc.). I know that some of it is just "trusting the shot" and continous pulling and aiming and letting things find the center, but it happens often enough for me that it has to be something in the setup that is "extra forgiving". My wife calls it "Oh Chit Xs"....Says alot about it right there...:wink:

Still can't turn a proline 4 into a 5 though. :wink: Another thing is I've never had any luck getting a sub-37" bow to do it for me, so maybe more than anything its just a matter of perfect fit.


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## silverdollar77 (Apr 16, 2010)

ok...been following as many threads as I can as I am trying to get back into the sport after 30 years layoff..

So my question is what is ATA and BH and how are they adjustable?

Also what are the different cams I keep reading about...

As I write this I am realizing that this is probably a whole separate post.

I am not meaning to hijack the fun....


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

scclimber said:


> wow,
> for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time?
> btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


Well let's see....

first...pick up the phone and call Hoyt and they will tell you that specs they list are a starting point and not set in stone :wink:

second....the first person to respond that they have adjusted their string specs....Just won Outdoor Nationals last year and destroyed the animal round record :zip: Jesse also adjust his string lengths....I know his bows usually run about 1/2-1" short of factory spec.....:zip:

and I will be damned if by twisting your strings you can't turn a 4 into a 5.....ever heard of creep tuning? Ever heard of actually setting up the bows draw to fit? Sure can't do either of those without twisting a string or cable :zip:


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## snakepliskin07 (Mar 10, 2007)

*Tweaking*



scclimber said:


> i'm not saying everything is perfect out of the box but twisting cables isn't going to make a bad shot go in the middle.
> btw, it can be as easy or as hard as you make it.
> ps, i like your avatar


A well tuned bow may not go in the middle on a bad shot,but it may stay in the 5 ring not a 4 or miss!!!!:wink:


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

snakepliskin07 said:


> A well tuned bow may not go in the middle on a bad shot,but it may stay in the 5 ring not a 4 or miss!!!!:wink:


ok, yall win. i'm going to shoot my bow.


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## CRAZYRICK1 (Dec 26, 2009)

*Wow!!*



scclimber said:


> wow,
> for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time?
> btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


Who let this guy on here?? I had to check, for a minute I thought I was on the 3-D forum:laugh::laugh: Just kidding.
:darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

SCCLIMBER, be careful how you present yourself on here. You are a Hoyt dealer. One of the very few in this state. It would look real bad if your customers seen this thread. AS far as not thinking Pro's tweak there bows. Well, you have heard of a few already on the above posts, but Reo who just won indoor nats, if you read his blog, played with his set-up until it felt right. Actually ended up shortening the DL. He even made the comment that thinking because his set-up worked perfect on a previous tournament that he dominated that it would be fine for vegas, was a mistake that he payed for at Vegas. I also read on GRIV's sight where I believe he actualy added a twist to his set-up and how it drasticly changed the way it held. From what i have read from interviews with Dave Cousins he seems to be pretty big on the tinkering. From what i hear his seminars start with you pretty much tearing your set-up down and starting all over.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

X Hunter said:


> On my VE im running all my cables and string 1/2" short.... using 50lb limbs... With the lighter deflection it pulled the ata in just over an inch and added about 6-7lbs depending on how I want my cams to lay Cant remember how much brace height it added... But it is a whole new machine now!!!
> 
> Then again those who know me know the 1st thing I do is take a bow out of spec....:wink:


You don't know what you're talking about Brad. :wink:

Who wants to make my CE shoot the way it should?


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

i'm not argueing that you shouldn't tweak your bow to make it fit you. having the bow fit the style of the shooter is very important. my point is a setup that works for the top pro may or may not fit another top pro or any other shooter for that matter. just because a top shooter adjusts thier bow in a certain way doens't mean we should all set up just like him or her.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

scclimber said:


> i'm not argueing that you shouldn't tweak your bow to make it fit you. having the bow fit the style of the shooter is very important. my point is a setup that works for the top pro may or may not fit another top pro or any other shooter for that matter. just because a top shooter adjusts thier bow in a certain way doens't mean we should all set up just like him or her.


We don't where I set my cables up is more than likely totally different then where any one else sets theirs. But the fact is with a Hoyt target setup, there is a lot of flexibility and custom tunes can be had just by twisting strings and cables. Oh and for your information I can twist my cables up and make the bow un-shootable. No matter how good the shot that arrow ain't landing in the X. then I can twist the cables to another spot and a not so good shot is in the X. I've done it and still do it on every Hoyt I got. This flexible design is one reason Hoyt is a very popular choice with target shooters.

Oh and X-hunter does hold like a rock and yes he more than likely can tell the difference in 1/2 turn on a cable on his Hoyt. He holds national title and National records.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Do you see what I meant yet? Don't bring that weak crap into our forum and blather on about how hot stuff you are....these guys are good and know damn well what they are doing......so yes..BOY take that attitude someplace else. 




scclimber said:


> i'm not argueing that you shouldn't tweak your bow to make it fit you. having the bow fit the style of the shooter is very important. my point is a setup that works for the top pro may or may not fit another top pro or any other shooter for that matter. just because a top shooter adjusts thier bow in a certain way doens't mean we should all set up just like him or her.


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## scclimber (May 2, 2007)

when did i say anything about being hot stuff? wow, i really thought the field forum was different than the other forums. don't worry, i won't be bothering you guys anymore.


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## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

_QUOTE]

that is an interesting statement. i have always strived to get the arrow to hit where i'm aiming. so you are saying you can get a bow to shoot inside of the point of aim? i come from a competitive rifle background so that is new to me. do these results just come from trial and error or is there a method to achieving them?
thanks 
Today 05:42 PM 

"boy"?... "attitude"?...
if the manufacturers thought the bows shot better out of spec, they would change the specs. if you dont want to shoot 4's, dont put the sight in the white and pull the trigger. 
Today 04:23 PM 

wow,
for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time? 
btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5. 
Today 03:51 PM _

You asked for it with comments like that. You came off very arrogant.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

scclimber said:


> wow,
> for a little difference in bh or ata to make a difference in your groups you must be holding like a rock and shooting tiny groups. what is it like to shoot perfect scores all the time?
> btw, i'm pretty sure there is nothing you can twist into or out of the strings that will turn a 4 into a 5.


Its @$$holes like you why I dont post very often anymore!!!!

But im gonna ignore your obvious ignorance and humor you here...

I like to think I hold pretty steady.... Since I average 65-70+x's(thats over half but im sure you knew that) on a field round... And any where from a 550 to a 555 on any given day How bout you??? Didnt think so

I spend more time behind the string in a day then most do in a week or month... You wanna talk setup take your best shot I can make a bow my b#$#h!!! And do exactly what I want it to do!!!

And like others have said factory spec's are just a starting point... not set in stone to be obeyed like the 10 commandments!!!

Blow hards like you belong in the gen pop or better yet the 3D forum!!


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

BOWGOD said:


> Well being as he IS the reining NFAA AMFS outdoor champion I'm gonna say yeah he knows how to tweak the bow for his liking.


:doh: that dont mean a thing :doh::wink:


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> When I got this bow it was 1/2" short on all the string and cables using C2 cams. When I switched it to SpiralXs, I went to the factory string length to keep near the same DW. I'm thinking I'm starting to wish I had short strung this one a little now. It's still shooting well so far. But it's not shooting 600+ grain 2712s anymore either. Feels a little different.:zip:


EVERY bow I have ever shot has been inside of specs on ATA a good bit and they all have performed better


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

That's going to leave a mark... :fear:


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

There are entirely too many people that are mesmerized or maybe hoodwinked by some pied piper into believing that the published specs on compound bows are sacred.

There is no such thing as a cam position, BH, or ATA on any bow, one cam (including hybrid which is actually one cam technology) or two cam that is sacred.

The manufacturers are not capable of making a determination of exact best specs because everyone's requirement is likely different. The stated specs are nothing more than a starting point from which they can size cams and limbs to produce the bows and get them into the hands of the shooters.

The ones that know how will tweak, the others will worry about the bow "being in spec".

I can take any bow, one cam, hybrid, two cam, cams or wheels and make it do just about anything I want it to do, knowing full well that the DW, DL, BH, and ATA will change all over the place. Understanding how this works is paramount to compound bow tweaking.

Now, the one thing about cam position is that cams with a supressor foot really do perform well if the foot is in position to accomplish its intended function.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

X Hunter said:


> EVERY bow I have ever shot has been inside of specs on ATA a good bit and they all have performed better


Exactly!!!

Hey Brad, you will never convince the rubber deer shooters of that, or misguided field archers obsessed with speed.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I would like to thank all of you that contributed to this thread. I got the information I was looking for. It will take me some time to find the sweet spot for me with this bow, but at least I know I'm going in the right direction.

Thank you again.


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

Spoon13 said:


> I would like to thank all of you that contributed to this thread. I got the information I was looking for. It will take me some time to find the sweet spot for me with this bow, but at least I know I'm going in the right direction.
> 
> Thank you again.


Let us know how it goes... I can't a bow any better than a guitar....:zip:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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