# Arrow Nock under the eye



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

GENERALLY, it's best to have the nock at the eye or in front.
However, I believe that with shorter ATA bows, and longer draw lengths, the nock can move back a little from what was considered ideal.
The key is to keep the string away from your cheek bone, and not have your face pushing sideways on the string.
NOTE: Many VERY good instructors are of the opinion that the size of the bow doesn't make that much of a difference. This is just MY opinion.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Nock location compared to the eye is just one visual reference as a part of the whole equation to me. The bow's draw length + the loop length + the release all work together to define the functional draw length that our form is set into or by. So, I don't over-focus on the position of the nock with the eye, but the facial fit in general + the qaulity of the anchor(s) provided by our loop and release + how the system supports our desired alignment. 

I think Mahly basically hit it. Some of the "ideal" location depends on other things including ATA.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Assuming you are talking about compounds, I pay no attention to it. I touch the string to the tip of my nose, and line up the peep. I use the peep height and d-loop length to get a comfortable hand position. I do this with my longer and shorter bows.


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## sublauxation (Nov 21, 2013)

I feel like this is a test but I do roughly the same as Cbrunson. I think it's most important to start with a solid hand anchor point and go from there. I touch the string to my nose (with my head in a natural/neutral position) and adjust the rope on my releases so I can get the same comfortable and repeatable anchor point with my draw hand. I alternate between a hinge and a thumb release and both are shot off ropes instead of a D loop so I can maintain the same anchor point with both. The arrow's nock lands where it lands.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

Eye to arrow relation means little if your posture is incorrect, but with proper posture the end of the arrow tube under the front of the eye seems ideal!


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## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

cbrunson said:


> Assuming you are talking about compounds, I pay no attention to it. I touch the string to the tip of my nose, and line up the peep. I use the peep height and d-loop length to get a comfortable hand position. I do this with my longer and shorter bows.


Yes. As cbrunson said. Just pay attention to the string on the nose and anchor point. With the string only touching or slightly pushing up against it, the string isn't being interfered with. In never have paid attention to where the nock is for compound. And, I never thought about it either.

Who needs something else to think about in target archery?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Mahly & tmorelli are spot on. It's all a part of the whole and it's going to be different for every archer and nearly every bow. 

The goal is to set up your bow to give you the best chance of executing a good & accurate shot. 
-Head erect & balanced over the center of your body mass - this gives you the best chance of standing still
-Nose on the string - a good refference point that allows repeatability
-Draw elbow aligned with the arrow - gives you leverage to pull through the shot & the force of your execution is not pulling you off target
-String angle at about 45 degrees from vertical & nock below eye - it's the position that allows most archers to achieve the other three things.

Lots of variation here because we are all different and shoot different bows. Lots more to it than just these few points. Developing repeatable form & shooting good is all about figuring out the optimal arrangement of the parts & pieces & then practice until you can't do it any other way.

JMHO,
Allen


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Nock location compared to the eye is just one visual reference as a part of the whole equation to me. The bow's draw length + the loop length + the release all work together to define the functional draw length that our form is set into or by. So, I don't over-focus on the position of the nock with the eye, but the facial fit in general + the qaulity of the anchor(s) provided by our loop and release + how the system supports our desired alignment.
> 
> I think Mahly basically hit it. Some of the "ideal" location depends on other things including ATA.


Yep. :thumbs_up


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I like what tmorelli and mahly said. Here's a link to a thread I posted on this subject that has some more insight as well. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2195266


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

after drawing a bunch of lines and shapes on paper, 
projecting those lines out to 100 yards, 
I think I'll be better off with the arrow tube under my eye
as apposed to the arrow tube behind my eye. 
thanks all.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

IMO why jesse is one of the best field shooters ever or any target archery for that matter.look how little facial contact he has with the string.I believe that helps extremely while shooting up down and sidehills


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

possum trapper said:


> IMO why jesse is one of the best field shooters ever or any target archery for that matter.look how little facial contact he has with the string.I believe that helps extremely while shooting up down and sidehills


Yep that guy has learned how to keep all his arrows inside the 5 ring on a field coarse, so far the best at it.

I felt like I was looking across my arrow to see my sight, when I anchored with the arrow tube behind my eye. ( not exactly in line)
I have anchored and shot this way and have always felt my longer shots were labored and lacking something. 

Now I feel like I am looking down the arrow to see my sight, with the tube under my eye. (More in line)
time will tell if this newer anchor spot will help with my long distance grouping.


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## kjwhfsd (Sep 10, 2005)

Why are you drawing it out on paper? 
To answer your question where should you put it? Go out and shoot make some changes shoot some more repeat. Figure out what works best for you.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Bees, your last post has me confused....are we even talking compounds here? If so, are you talking about your head position?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

kjwhfsd said:


> Why are you drawing it out on paper?
> To answer your question where should you put it? Go out and shoot make some changes shoot some more repeat. Figure out what works best for you.


because it's cold outside and I don't wanna go outside to experiment right now. 
Hence paper and pencil get it?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Bees, your last post has me confused....are we even talking compounds here? If so, are you talking about your head position?


Not confusing compound bow with release. Old posture and set up had my arrow tube landing out on my cheek, nock back behind my eye. the standard Position any shop will put you into. When I close my eyes and draw and anchor to these places, when I open my eyes my peep sight is always about 1 to 1.5 inches off to my right. So I have always just stuck my neck out to move my head over to my right to see thru the peep sight. done this for years. and for years something just has always nagged at me about this position. I shoot Ok from here but I always felt that I should be scoring better on the longer shots. 

finally I moved and lowered my anchor point, raised my peep sight closed my eyes and draw the bow. now when I open them my peep sight lands in front of my eye, and the arrow tube lands under my eye. don't have to move my head, but now, you all will say this position is not correct. string is not on my face at all and everything is in front of me, more like my recurve than before. anyway indoors it works well, but then so did the other position, when the snow and cold leaves this place, I'll see what happens on the longer shots. Does that clear things up for you? because I don't know how to explain it any different.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Bees said:


> finally I moved and lowered my anchor point, raised my peep sight closed my eyes and draw the bow. now when I open them my peep sight lands in front of my eye, and the arrow tube lands under my eye. don't have to move my head, but now, you all will say this position is not correct. string is not on my face at all and everything is in front of me, more like my recurve than before. anyway indoors it works well, but then so did the other position, when the snow and cold leaves this place, I'll see what happens on the longer shots. Does that clear things up for you? because I don't know how to explain it any different.


Bees, I understand exactly what you're saying and have done the same with my set up. Thinking my anchor was too low and pulling my reticule to the bottom of the dot, I raised my anchor, but when I did this, I was less prone to pull the reticule to the bottom of the dot, but I also found that I had to tilt my head a little to the right in order to line up the peep. This is okay to do at 20 yards, but I knew I would not be able to be consistent at the longer field distances tilting my head like this.

So, realizing that the reticule going low was primarily being caused by my raising my draw shoulder too high, I'm in the process of lowering my anchor and raising my peep so now I can line up my peep without tilting my head. With the anchor lower and peep higher, the string is nowhere near my face and is about 1/4" in front of my nose...and like you have discovered, most would say this is not the "proper" string alignment... With the draw shoulder lowered, the reticule does not drop out of the bottom; however, I'm not sure how this is going to play out when I set my outdoor peep distance at 50 yards... It is a work in progress.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know how many times I've seen Randy Ulmer's picture and lines drawn to show the supposed desire where all goes.
Here's a pic of Senior Pro Steve Boylan. I don't know how many times he's been at the top since I first met him and then 2005 or 2006 he was NFAA Senior Pro Triple Crown Champion.....Last year there was the shoot out between he and Randy Ulmer (finally returning). Steve had a nose bleed that wouldn't stop. Kleenex stuffed his nose, couldn't breath, blood all over...Said EMTs were present and he kept shooting and finally gave to Randy. Steve had to have some hospital work to get the bleeding stopped. Sadly, he will miss Vegas due to hand problems, trigger finger in his index and middle finger, quite painful according to his wife, Sandy.

String sort of misses the corner of the mouth.

Side note; It would be kind of nice to see a pair of Ragsdales return...


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

montigre said:


> Bees, I understand exactly what you're saying and have done the same with my set up. Thinking my anchor was too low and pulling my reticule to the bottom of the dot, I raised my anchor, but when I did this, I was less prone to pull the reticule to the bottom of the dot, but I also found that I had to tilt my head a little to the right in order to line up the peep. This is okay to do at 20 yards, but I knew I would not be able to be consistent at the longer field distances tilting my head like this.
> 
> So, realizing that the reticule going low was primarily being caused by my raising my draw shoulder too high, I'm in the process of lowering my anchor and raising my peep so now I can line up my peep without tilting my head. With the anchor lower and peep higher, the string is nowhere near my face and is about 1/4" in front of my nose...and like you have discovered, most would say this is not the "proper" string alignment... With the draw shoulder lowered, the reticule does not drop out of the bottom; however, I'm not sure how this is going to play out when I set my outdoor peep distance at 50 yards... It is a work in progress.


I have and so have many others done this for years, most don't even realize they are craning their neck out some to get to their peep sight.
all in all I Know what I can do from the standard accepted archery community position, and I can always come back to it. 

My string does the Same, and I'm thinking that's a plus not a minus. 



> I don't know how many times I've seen Randy Ulmer's picture and lines drawn to show the supposed desire where all goes.
> Here's a pic of Senior Pro Steve Boylan. I don't know how many times he's been at the top since I first met him and then 2005 or 2006 he was NFAA Senior Pro Triple Crown Champion.....


I have tried his position and every position on my face down to my chin over the years.
Now I'm going to try(let's call it the string in front of my face) position and see how it stacks up.
and it's been OK so far.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> Bees, I understand exactly what you're saying and have done the same with my set up. Thinking my anchor was too low and pulling my reticule to the bottom of the dot, I raised my anchor, but when I did this, I was less prone to pull the reticule to the bottom of the dot, but I also found that I had to tilt my head a little to the right in order to line up the peep. This is okay to do at 20 yards, but I knew I would not be able to be consistent at the longer field distances tilting my head like this.
> 
> So, realizing that the reticule going low was primarily being caused by my raising my draw shoulder too high, I'm in the process of lowering my anchor and raising my peep so now I can line up my peep without tilting my head. With the anchor lower and peep higher, the string is nowhere near my face and is about 1/4" in front of my nose...and like you have discovered, most would say this is not the "proper" string alignment... With the draw shoulder lowered, the reticule does not drop out of the bottom; however, I'm not sure how this is going to play out when I set my outdoor peep distance at 50 yards... It is a work in progress.


Hello Gail:

I've been working with a shooter in person,
who has a bow side shoulder issue,
actually only in High School, and starting to show signs of rotator cuff injury.

So,
he has the bow side shoulder rising too high,
and the fix,
is actually a lateral shift of the HIPS.

Ever hear the expression, "...it all comes from the legs...".

It's true.

So,
at least for this young man,
bow side shoulder rising UP,
the fix that worked for HIM (right handed shooter.....left side, the bow side shoulder rising up getting to full draw)
the FIX
was a lateral shift of the pelvis/hip girdle towards his RIGHT ankle...horizontal movement of the belt buckle.

Did not take much,
and we are still fine tuning the amount of the lateral shift.


Now,
raising the draw side shoulder too high,
I also see this quite often.

This fix is more complex,
and gotta see photos,
before I would make suggestions.

Give a 1.5X d-loop or a 2X d-loop a try,
and see what happens.

Experiment.
TEST.
Verify.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Bees said:


> I have and so have many others done this for years, most don't even realize they are craning their neck out some to get to their peep sight.
> all in all I Know what I can do from the standard accepted archery community position, and I can always come back to it.
> My string does the Same, and I'm thinking that's a plus not a minus.


True that. It may in fact turn out to be a huge bonus, especially at longer distances, but it sure does feel a little odd as do most changes to one's form...lol!!


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> Now,
> raising the draw side shoulder too high,
> I also see this quite often.
> 
> ...


Hi Allan,
Since the end of December, when I have been able to start shooting my competition bows again following the surgery, it has been a time of multiple experiments. I figured since I had to teach my body how to shoot all over again, I may as well knock out as many form issues as possible during the winter so I'll be more prepared to tackle the field courses this year.

So far, I have played with draw lengths ranging from 27" all the way out to 28.5" in 1/8" increments and have settled on 27.5" for indoors and 27 3/8" for outdoors. Those 2 draw lengths produce the most stable sight pictures for me.

I have also tried different d-loop lengths at the different draw lengths, 1/4" being the shortest and most unmanageable to 1 1/8" which ended up being far too long. Right now I've settled into using a d-loop length of 1/2" which seems to allow the most forgiveness for my set up while allowing me to execute a pretty decent shot with the hinge if I do my part. The hinge is a Stan Black Jack that has a rather short head and rounded sear, so there is not very much, if any, d-loop torquing going on.

Now, for the draw shoulder raising up, that is proving to be a difficult hurdle. Due to the amount of nerve manipulation done during my bilateral shoulder surgeries, I have no proprioceptive awareness of what my shoulders are doing when I reach full draw cuz I cannot feel the arms when they are positioned away from my body and are out of my peripheral vision. Wearing a compression shirt has helped a little, but perhaps a second set of eyes to evaluate would be also beneficial here. I will happily send off a pic once I finalize the anchor and peep height I plan to use. :smile:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> Hi Allan,
> Since the end of December, when I have been able to start shooting my competition bows again following the surgery, it has been a time of multiple experiments. I figured since I had to teach my body how to shoot all over again, I may as well knock out as many form issues as possible during the winter so I'll be more prepared to tackle the field courses this year.
> 
> So far, I have played with draw lengths ranging from 27" all the way out to 28.5" in 1/8" increments and have settled on 27.5" for indoors and 27 3/8" for outdoors. Those 2 draw lengths produce the most stable sight pictures for me.
> ...


No proprioception or very little?

I have a technique,
I call "dim light" training.

NOT zero light,
just adjust the light levels so that you can see/sense shapes, but all perception of color goes to just black and white.
Light levels are pretty low.

This will heighten your sensitivity to your other 4 senses.

Have you ever seen "sticky hands" training, where two folks are "sparring" by touch (both participants blind folded).
Similar concept, just not quite so extreme.

I take a massive cardboard box,
filled with rags, towels, plastic bags...old Mac computer box...must be 30-inches by 30-inches by 30-inches.

I stand only 3 feet away.
fresh piece of paper scotched taped to the HUGE cardboard box.

I attempt a level shot,
what FEELS to be a dead level arrow. Light levels in my garage are extremely low.
I can see/sense the corners of the box, but cannot tell the colors on the target face...looks black and white.

So,
fire the first shot.
Put down the bow against a shelf...this is a narrow corridor in my garage.
Pull the arrow.

Walk back to my shooting line (I can kinda see where I am in reference to the tall shelf)
and fire again, level shot.

BAck and forth.
FIre the arrow
Pull the arrow
fire the arrow
pull the arrow.

So,
after say 30 shots or so,
walk back to front side of the garage
and turn on the lights
and check the hole pattern.

If you TUNE your proprioception ENOUGH,
even just a sense that your two clavicles are level,
your head is centered (think ready stance)
your weight is at 70% on the balls of your feet,
the side to side spacing of your ankles is DEAD consistent...

use your sense of body awareness for the OTHER parts of your body
(think positive and negative space)...negative space is the part of your body with little or even no proprioception
so,
you can LOCATE the "negative space" by appropriately positioning the "positive space"...

you will have a SINGLE hole pattern.

8 directions for approach and retreat.
8 quadrants

Build the other senses.
Stay centered...balanced..learn how to move...learn how to stand, to be still.

Based on your training,
you should understand.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> Hi Allan,
> Since the end of December, when I have been able to start shooting my competition bows again following the surgery, it has been a time of multiple experiments. I figured since I had to teach my body how to shoot all over again, I may as well knock out as many form issues as possible during the winter so I'll be more prepared to tackle the field courses this year.
> 
> So far, I have played with draw lengths ranging from 27" all the way out to 28.5" in 1/8" increments and have settled on 27.5" for indoors and 27 3/8" for outdoors. Those 2 draw lengths produce the most stable sight pictures for me.
> ...


Vision...the primary sense.

Also the first, to unlearn.

Touch, feel, body position awareness.

These are basic skills that are taught in other disciplines.
You can use those skills also in archery.


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