# The Korean torque technique.



## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

It does seem like your arrows are flying straighter


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks Todd. If you look at 0:27 that was one of the worst shots of the day as far as accuracy goes... but it is one of the best slow motion arrows flying I have ever filmed, and thats why I put it in the video.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Regardless of the type of archery you do a bow you can dominate is essential. 
Get that target up to shoulder level so you can work on posture.

Grant


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Grandmac, I need to fix many things. I'll move the target up.


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## Maddmartagan (Feb 13, 2015)

It looks like the arrow has already passed your riser by the time you torque the bow. I'm not so sure the torque actually has any affect on the arrow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Maddmartagan said:


> It looks like the arrow has already passed your riser by the time you torque the bow. I'm not so sure the torque actually has any affect on the arrow.


If the torque was so great to be visible before the arrow leaves the bow (there is no riser - its not a take down) the string would send the arrow sideways. Imagine a crazy bow spinning around with the arrow still attached on it! That's not what we want. We want a clear release and the torque much just begin to take affect as the arrow leaves. All the rest spinning around is just follow through because of the momentum. The hand that grips the bow, holds the bow straight but builds up tension to rotate it (torque) before the release, when the thumb releases the arrow, the bow hand's build up tension torques the bow just the slightest so as the arrow doesn't need the paradox and spine to go around the bow.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

The term, handle or riser section is applicable to any bow, be it recurve, longbow, or whatever it is you're shooting. We may have a little language difference, eh?

:^)


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> The term, handle or riser section is applicable to any bow, be it recurve, longbow, or whatever it is you're shooting. We may have a little language difference, eh?
> 
> :^)


Professor Thomas Duvernay, who has spread his knowledge of Korean Traditional Archery to the Western World is an American. Without him, people like me, in a country who don't know other kinds or archery other than recurve (and little compound) would never have the chance to know about KTA. I don't think there is any language difference.


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

In our western culture of shooting the bow we are taught to remove ourselves from the bow so that we don't negatively affect the shot. For example shooting with open hand using a bow sling terms like "torque free grip" echo this ideology.

However when studying other cultures much is taught influencing and controlling the bow. Read up on Turkish archery and the use of khatra when shooting the bow.

Just saying to keep an open mind to other methods of shooting the bow. Not saying they are better or worse just unique to their style and purpose.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

I'm sorry but am I missing something here? All the rotational movement of the bow occurs after the arrow has cleared the bow ... how can it affect arrow flight?


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

It looks like nearly all the rotational movement occurs after the arrow is gone, but believe their is some influence.
Just like someone who drops their bow arm at release causes an arrow to go low yet you might think the arrow would be gone before being affected.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Unless the bow arm is moving at the time of release, or the bow is torquing at the time of release any movement that occurs after release can't have any effect on the arrow. The arrow has cleared the bow 4 or 5 milliseconds after release.


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Exactly right the archer using what is called khatra is actually applying torque before the arrow is released.


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Yewselfbow said:


> Unless the bow arm is moving at the time of release, or the bow is torquing at the time of release any movement that occurs after release can't have any effect on the arrow. The arrow has cleared the bow 4 or 5 milliseconds after release.


I apply torque before I release. The bow stays still because it is drawn but my hand is twisting way before I release. The moment I release simultaneously starts the torque slowly at first. That small tiny rotation is enough to clear the arrow path, the rest is momentum. Maybe I am doing it wrong but Gungdo, Kyudo, Manchurian and Turkish archery and others has been and still are using the torque technique not with reenactment or research or historical archery but with actual tournaments, clubs, federations etc. Some archers reach way over 400 meters range at flight archery due to techniques like it. I'll try to find a documentary about it later and post the link.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Sorry I'm not buying any of this .... how can you apply a rotational torque moment to a bow without movement?


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## tmv (Mar 5, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTEE4DEJ0zo


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Yewselfbow said:


> Sorry I'm not buying any of this .... how can you apply a rotational torque moment to a bow without movement?


I am pushing it to rotate (like the gass on a motorbike) but the drawn string is holding it in place, (like tog of war, when one side lets go the others are thrown back) when I release only then the bow rotates.


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

In my latest video you can see it clearly, if you freeze-frame the moment before the arrow leaves the string the bow is already aligned with the camera rather than with the shooter (me). http://youtu.be/vx2VEYXL2is


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

NickAntz said:


> I am pushing it to rotate (like the gass on a motorbike) but the drawn string is holding it in place, (like tog of war, when one side lets go the others are thrown back) when I release only then the bow rotates.


Sorry ... I still don't understand. Are you saying that, at full draw you are deliberately attempting to externally rotate your wrist !!!!


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Yewselfbow said:


> Sorry ... I still don't understand. Are you saying that, at full draw you are deliberately attempting to externally rotate your wrist !!!!


Yes. Look at this video past 1:05: https://youtu.be/SsBDfx6VmP0?t=1m9s
@1:08 I am locked on target
@1:09 I rotate my wrist (and pull my index away from the tip) thats when I force to torque the bow... but it won't budge because I am also pushing it forward at full draw
@1:10 I release and everything happens automatically

And look at this photo, the arrow is still on the string but the bow and string is already 30degrees rotated to the right and "we have a lift off" a clear release:


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Interesting technique, but I find that my best shooting with Asiatics is with a loose, open grip, and minimal contact with the bow hand (pretty much just the base of the thumb) - almost exactly the opposite of this. The idea is to reduce torque as much as possible, which seems even more important than usual in these shorter bows. Just seems to work for me, but then I shoot Mediterranean and afoot.

I have seen traditional archers allow the bow to rotate along the vertical axis, particularly Japanese - though in their case it seems to be a side effect of a loose grip rather than a deliberate attempt to introduce torque. Perhaps a deliberate outside torque acts as a form of follow through. And I'll admit the loose, open, minimal contact grip might be impractical if your archery practice involves riding across the steppe with a few thousand buddies looking for small towns to pillage.


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## 5 Arrow (Nov 20, 2015)

Looks like this could be useful to an amateur who has invested a lot of money in arrows of incorrect spine. Not really, they have enough to worry about without learning how to torque the bow.
I prefer to spend a little time with the manufacturers selection chart and tune using the grounded in physics age old tuning methods. Ever consider the using the fundamental frequency to time the nock end of the arrow so it is moving away from the riser as the arrow passes the rest?


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

5 Arrow said:


> Looks like this could be useful to an amateur who has invested a lot of money in arrows of incorrect spine. Not really, they have enough to worry about without learning how to torque the bow.
> I prefer to spend a little time with the manufacturers selection chart and tune using the grounded in physics age old tuning methods. Ever consider the using the fundamental frequency to time the nock end of the arrow so it is moving away from the riser as the arrow passes the rest?


The Korean manufacturer of the KOREAN bow I shoot has made this kind of bows to be shot with torque. I don't invent anything. I follow the book of a no-amateur: http://www.koreanbow.com/shop/index.php?id_product=18&controller=product&id_lang=1
If you want to invent a Korean Traditional spine chart after thousands of years it has been around be my guest and be that pioneer. Not all foreign short bows are horse bows, that's like calling ALL mediterranean drawn bows "recurves". As you consider your arrows and how they should be shot why don't you spend some time and consider who, why and for what usage was your bow made. ..


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## bamboox (Apr 5, 2016)

Hi Nick, I am using a right hand longbow, with arrow rest on left side of the bow. should I "rotate" my left wrist clock-wise or counter-clock-wise? thanks!


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

bamboox said:


> Hi Nick, I am using a right hand longbow, with arrow rest on left side of the bow. should I "rotate" my left wrist clock-wise or counter-clock-wise? thanks!


The technique only applies to Korean Traditional Archery with Korean Bow. There are other techniques for the longbow of which none has any rotation... but I don't want to tutor you on something other than what I practice.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

What are the characteristics of a Korean bow that makes this technique unique to that bow. Would the technique work with an English longbow or a Manchu bow or a Scythian bow?


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

It does take very flexible arrows to fly true out of most Asiatics. I have two Magyars and a Kaiyuan bow in the upper 40# low 50# range that only shoot straight with 32 inch, 700 spine, 175 grain tips. You have to really look to find the bits to put together arrows like that. I'd be completely unsurprised to find longbow folks have the same issue.

I've always figured the horseback guys have to maintain a death grip on their bows. Not much choice, if you think about it. They may well have come up with techniques to try to mitigate the inevitable issues one would see from maintaining a fierce, full palm contact grip on a short bow with low brace height. There are at least two torque techniques in use among these folks - one flipping the bow forward for additional speed, and the other the torque-to-clear technique to try to get the arrow around the grip. Enough folks swear by these techniques that there is probably something to them. But from a functional standpoint, they're almost certainly not necessary if you simply avoid the mounted death grip. I honestly do not know if non-mounted Asiatic shooters used a loose grip or if they always went with what they'd have to do mounted.

For those of us not dealing with having to keep the bow from jarring out of our hands as we gallop across the dusty steppes, a loose, minimal contact grip and flexible arrows work well. I suspect the same probably applies to longbow folks.


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

I'll try to answer both.

Manchurian and Kyudo both use this torque technique with little difference. Theoretically you can take any bow and shoot any style, but every bowyer makes the bows for a particular way of shooting and it is wise to shoot the bow the way it is meant to be shot.

What I am studying is not historical nor mounted archery. I want to learn the art of the modern style of Korean Traditional Archery (KTA). When I say modern I mean the way Korean KTA archers shoot in their clubs and their tournaments and their events. It is a particular sport KTA and widely spread in Korea. In the states there is also an official KTA club and I know about a club in Rumania where not official but practice it with dedication.


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

bamboox said:


> Hi Nick, I am using a right hand longbow, with arrow rest on left side of the bow. should I "rotate" my left wrist clock-wise or counter-clock-wise? thanks!


Bamboox, maybe you don't care of about how a bow or a particular style of archery is practiced and you just want to experiment and have fun, so I will tell you how you can use this technique on any kind of bow. I have a Samick SKB which is Korean Horsebow but it is now a KTA bow, BUT still I have shot with it successfully with the torque technique. But be careful, you may twist your bows limbs, KTA bows have special ears and SKB has wide limbs, a longbow could be broken with this technique! WARNING! So you take your bow and grip it with you right hand but with the three last fingers, your thumb and index don't grip the bow. You nock the arrow on the right side and it rest on your thumb, you draw (preferably with a thumb ring, but maybe it can be done with fingers too) and before you shoot you but pressure on the bow so it will turn anticlockwise. It will not turn then, but you keep pressuring it to rotate untill you release, then it will turn automatically. I recommend using little force because your bow could break or limbs twist and hurt yourself.

PS. If you shoot on the left side you can not torque the bow, clockwise is your arm that will stop the string, anticlockwise the bow will hit the arrow instead of clearing the arrow path.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

It's all about horse back mount release, were the bow must turn away from the horses head on the right side, for right handed. but not so good on the left side. horses will react to anything close to their head. Riding full galloped and sudden left turn is not a good combo.
Dan


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

DDSHOOTER said:


> It's all about horse back mount release, were the bow must turn away from the horses head on the right side, for right handed. but not so good on the left side. horses will react to anything close to their head. Riding full galloped and sudden left turn is not a good combo.
> Dan


The KTA (or Gungdo) is now a recreational sport. Before that, the last military application it had was as one of the tests officers in Korea went through for advancing in rank. It sure has been through many changes since the time it was used as a mounted archery style, but even then it must have had traces of archery styles for castle and ship defense as yell. This supposed origins are often discussed among KTA enthusiasts.


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

The official Gungdo clubs are not horseback archery. KTA is stationary outdoor target archery. There are horseback archery athletes whos preferred style is KTA and shoot KTA bows, but that's not the official Korean Traditional Archery.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Just saying. not preferred style on the left side.







Dan


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

Emil Eriksson? With the Windfighter! I think the body posture when shooting with the thumbring gives you more versatility along with stability. But there are many ways you can shoot horseback stably even with split fingers.


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## NickAntz (Sep 22, 2015)

I think Emil Eriksson has a rather simple shooting style. Don't get me wrong I think of him as a master of his trade. The more you complex your style the more limitations and demands your shooting style has and it becomes less forgiving.


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## Ryddragyn (Jan 28, 2012)

bamboox said:


> Hi Nick, I am using a right hand longbow, with arrow rest on left side of the bow. should I "rotate" my left wrist clock-wise or counter-clock-wise? thanks!


If you are shooting conventionally, with the three finger release, then no. You shouldn't rotate at all. The rotation of Korean and Japanese bows is due to some unique aspects of how the thumb draw behaves. The regular western style shooting doesn't require it, and it is best to keep the bow hand static.


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## Ryddragyn (Jan 28, 2012)

Norm Koger said:


> There are at least two torque techniques in use among these folks - one flipping the bow forward for additional speed, and the other the torque-to-clear technique to try to get the arrow around the grip. Enough folks swear by these techniques that there is probably something to them. /QUOTE]
> 
> The added speed argument is controversial. It's a nuanced issue.
> 
> ...


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Interesting...

I suppose an effective torque-to-clear technique might at least relieve the archer of obsessing over dynamic arrow spine. As someone with five sets of arrows for different bows, contemplating a sixth set, I can appreciate the concept of rotating the bow out of the way rather than worrying about finding just the right arrow / point combination that will clear a grip up to 1.5 inches wide depending upon the bow.


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## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

Norm Koger said:


> I've always figured the horseback guys have to maintain a death grip on their bows. Not much choice, if you think about it. They may well have come up with techniques to try to mitigate the inevitable issues one would see from maintaining *a fierce, full palm contact grip* on a short bow with low brace height.


They hold the other arrows in their bow hand too so how it be a full palm death grip?


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## Ryddragyn (Jan 28, 2012)

Norm Koger said:


> Interesting...
> 
> I suppose an effective torque-to-clear technique might at least relieve the archer of obsessing over dynamic arrow spine. As someone with five sets of arrows for different bows, contemplating a sixth set, I can appreciate the concept of rotating the bow out of the way rather than worrying about finding just the right arrow / point combination that will clear a grip up to 1.5 inches wide depending upon the bow.


Yes, you can use a wide range of spines with thumb draw and the right bow hand technique. Though one piece of common advice is that stiffer arrows tolerate torque to clear shooting better than softer ones. I have a friend who shoots arrows spined for 90-100# out of a 60# bow.

BUT

You also have to worry about doing the bow hand movement the exact same every single time. Some authors (e.g. Gao Ying in China) apparently advocated not doing it at all, to eliminate human error. It's tricky.

I honestly think there's a good reason this is such a highly specialized method of shooting, while tribal, hunter gatherer societies the world over are perfectly content to shoot more or less "western" style. Keep it simple, stupid.


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## Ryddragyn (Jan 28, 2012)

Longlost said:


> They hold the other arrows in their bow hand too so how it be a full palm death grip?


The "death grip" is also a point of contention, and not a new one at that. 

"Archers throughout the world have agreed that strong and accurate shooting depends upon a firm hold upon the grip so that the finger tips all but bleed. The Persians, however, maintained that the opposite, namely, a loose hold upon the grip, insured strength and accuracy. This, to my mind, is wrong."

https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/faris-elmer/arab-archery/docs/xvi.html

500+ year-old debate.


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## Ryddragyn (Jan 28, 2012)

Yewselfbow said:


> Sorry ... I still don't understand. Are you saying that, at full draw you are deliberately attempting to externally rotate your wrist !!!!


Yes. When you torque the grip before release, there is twisting energy stored in the limbs of the bow. A small amount of propeller twist.


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## bamboox (Apr 5, 2016)

Thanks Nick for taking the time to answer my question! I will give it a try next time.


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