# Help me find my torque problem



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

twelve-ring said:


> When I shoot an arrow through paper at the shop, I get a huge left tear. By huge I mean vanes on the right side with about 2 inches of tear to the left of the vanes. The shop owner can grab the bow and shoot a clean bullet hole through paper. What am I doing? I'm getting pretty frustrated and need this figured out before Foley. Some have told me its my grip, some have said my DL is too long. Every bit of help and advice is appreciated.


I believe you are describing a right tear. Perhaps the shop owner is torqueing the bow. I had an experience with this when I first started shooting.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Just my experience which will hopefully help: the knock-right tear is also my general antagonist with my PSE Supra Max. After a long and bloody battle with the bow, I also finally narrowed it down to my 'natural' grip with that bow which induces a very slight clockwise (looking down from the top) torque on the handle. I had previously done the tune with a different grip that, while it was more neutral for the bow, forced me to maintain some tension in the bow forearm on the shot. When I finally realized that wasn't going to work and I needed to use my natural grip, the right tear started to show up on that bow. I lived with it for a while, but it wasn't a very forgiving setup.

For me, I've patched the problem by yoke tuning for a good bareshaft with my natural grip instead. I do torque the handle slightly, but since it's a totally relaxed shot and the one I'm used to, I can repeat it and therefore it qualifies as something I can try to adjust the tune around. 

So yes, perhaps handle torque is a culprit you might look for....

My .02,
DM


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## twelve-ring (Mar 3, 2015)

Thank you for the help. I'll break out the bare shaft and see if I can tune it.


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## twelve-ring (Mar 3, 2015)

Running a pse domi 3D max dc cam at 31" if that helps


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Well if the dominator is as sensitive to the grip as my Supra Max is (EPLC shoots a dominator, I believe he's mentioned, so he would know more in that regard?), I would call torquing the grip a possible suspect there.

I'd be disinclined to monkey with the draw length for a right-tear, though. In my experience, DL being off gives you either a left tear, more left tear or more and more left tear... 

DM


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## legion_archery (Mar 4, 2014)

If you left your bow with the guy at the shop and he turned it then he tuned it to himself, that's fine to get the bow tuned but when you are there he needs to tune the bow to YOU not himself. No two people "hold" a bow the same, even different releases can make a bow tear different. For example I have two friends that bring their bows to me to be retuned every 3 months, they leave the bows with me and I get them all tuned and shooting perfect bullets through paper (for me) when they come pick the bows up I have them shoot them through paper and both their bows tear right, so I have to add 1-2 twists to their yokes (Bowtech bows) and bam bullets through paper again.....

Have the shop owner watch your shot and see if he notices anything you might be doing wrong and if he see's nothing major then have him tune it to YOU to get it shooting bullets through the paper


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

dmacey said:


> Just my experience which will hopefully help: the knock-right tear is also my general antagonist with my PSE Supra Max. After a long and bloody battle with the bow, I also finally narrowed it down to my 'natural' grip with that bow which induces a very slight clockwise (looking down from the top) torque on the handle. I had previously done the tune with a different grip that, while it was more neutral for the bow, forced me to maintain some tension in the bow forearm on the shot. When I finally realized that wasn't going to work and I needed to use my natural grip, the right tear started to show up on that bow. I lived with it for a while, but it wasn't a very forgiving setup.
> 
> For me, I've patched the problem by yoke tuning for a good bareshaft with my natural grip instead. I do torque the handle slightly, but since it's a totally relaxed shot and the one I'm used to, I can repeat it and therefore it qualifies as something I can try to adjust the tune around.
> 
> ...


The Dominator's (all versions) are not a very torque plagued and are easy to yoke tune as mentioned above. You would put twists in the yoke on the side of the tear, in your case the right side yoke. You would add 1 to the right and subtract one from the left to keep the timing from being altered. Repeat until you get the desired results. This should fix the problem so long as you are not really grabbing the bow. Also, not all shop owners are the best mechanics... sorry to those that are but you are in the minority.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> The Dominator's (all versions) are not a very torque plagued and are easy to yoke tune as mentioned above.


Ok, thanks for the correction. I just assumed without having shot one before...

DM


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## twelve-ring (Mar 3, 2015)

Just played with the yoke tune. To get any improvement, I had to get the cam leaning so hard that I was afraid to try any more. Please help


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

My friends who shoot Dominators have never mentioned a problem as you're describing. I would look very closely at your grip. I believe you are doing something to torque the bow at some point in your shot process. If possible, have someone video you shooting paying close attention to your grip and then play it back in slo mo to see whether or not you're doing something you're not aware of.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

EVERYONE torques a bow. It's the way our body geometry is. The secret is consistent torque. Some people can change their torque and some people can't. For those that can't, yoke tune and, to some extent, draw length tune. Consistency is the key though.
Here's some food for thought. Have anyone ever noticed that the relationship with riser centre, grip location and centre shot on Hoyt bows don't line up. I think the engineers know how naturally humans torque a bow. Also notice how a lot of Hoyt shooters have grip tape. As stupid as it sounds I think it helps with giving the bow a little twist that helps the bow geometry. I could be wrong.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> Have anyone ever noticed that the relationship with riser centre, grip location and centre shot on Hoyt bows don't line up. I think the engineers know how naturally humans torque a bow. Also notice how a lot of Hoyt shooters have grip tape.


This can be said for a lot of bows and Hoyt is far from the only bows that shooters use grip tape. Personally, I haven't used grip tape, period, and I've had 11 Hoyts since 2000.....


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

What reason do you choose to not use grip tape?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

You have too much pressure on the left side of the grip. Here's a good thread about grip and how it effects the tune of your bow. This guy has the opposite problem as yourself so you would do the opposite as him to fix it but the discussion and concepts are the same. On page 3, I break down the two angles that are important when taking the grip and then describe them with pictures and a description. There is also a video from GRIV about the grip. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2391973&highlight=two+angles+consider


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

duc said:


> EVERYONE torques a bow. It's the way our body geometry is. The secret is consistent torque. Some people can change their torque and some people can't. For those that can't, yoke tune and, to some extent, draw length tune. Consistency is the key though.
> Here's some food for thought. Have anyone ever noticed that the relationship with riser centre, grip location and centre shot on Hoyt bows don't line up. I think the engineers know how naturally humans torque a bow. Also notice how a lot of Hoyt shooters have grip tape. As stupid as it sounds I think it helps with giving the bow a little twist that helps the bow geometry. I could be wrong.


Interesting, and in fact it was while shooting my Hoyt Tribute that I finally put 2 and 2 together on my particular grip style. I happened to notice not long ago that my natural grip imparts just the right amount of torque for it to bareshaft correctly with everything squared away on the bow. I set the centershot by aligning a knocked arrow with another laid against the inside of the riser and the wheel lean on top and bottom are perfectly lined up (arrow against the wheel parallel to string at full draw). I shoot mine with the grip off and some grip tape and it bareshafts perfectly at 20 yards just like that.

The PSE I discovered did not, but I don't torque it enough that I wasn't able to yoke tune it for a good bareshaft - it does require some / lean in the top cam at full draw for me.

As for grip tape, I use it only because I shoot such low poundage that I need the friction to keep the bow from sliding down in my hand. My holding weight is barely 11 to 12 lbs on my Hoyt and less than that on the PSE. But it does also allow me to torque the handles with my natural grip as close to exactly the same way every time as I can....

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> What reason do you choose to not use grip tape?


Because my bow don't come with grip tape.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Because my bow don't come with grip tape.


Well you know... there's this new technology out there called a "archery shop" that can help with that..... (sorry couldn't resist)... 

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dmacey said:


> Well you know... there's this new technology out there called a "archery shop" that can help with that..... (sorry couldn't resist)...
> DM


I'm tell ya, that new technology stuff will be the death of us.....If people would just haul back and shoot they'd be better off.....


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Because my bow don't come with grip tape.


Did it come with a sight and rest?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> Did it come with a sight and rest?


Didn't like my answer I see. Oh, I forgot the "s" on bow.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Didn't like my answer I see. Oh, I forgot the "s" on bow.


Morning sonny. It's not that I didn't like your answer, it's the holier-then-thou attitude it displayed. 
I'll respond to your PM here as well. 
The subject of the conversation is hand toque. My example was not to single out Hoyt (I'm shooting one at the moment) but to demonstrate how some bow manufacturers factor in natural hand toque into their design. The grip tape comment was added to show what some people do to make thing a little bit easier to get consistent torque on the handle. I didn't tell YOU or even suggest that you SHOULD use it. I pointed out a fact that so many top shooter use tape on their bows. So how you took this as me telling you to use tape is puzzling. How you even thought the subject of the post was directed at you is even more puzzling. It was directed at to OP to get him to think about his hand placement.
I see I'm making friends here already:wink:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

duc said:


> It was directed at to OP to get him to think about his hand placement.


I believe that is exactly what I suggested to the OP WAY back in post #11.....:dontknow:


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Come to full draw and look at the top cam to see if the string is coming off the cam straight or to the side. You want it to come off straight.

Now gently torque the bow to the left and see if the tare gets less or worse. This will let you know which way the bow needs to be gripped.

Tie a d loop on the bow that is at least 1/2" longer than what you have now and see how it affects the tare. I think that you need to get your release elbow further behind you and a longer d loop will help with this.

These are some easy things to try to help you diagnose what needs to be done.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

Just pay attention to how the bow reacts on the shot. If the riser wants to twist left or right you need to work on your
grip and or body alignment until the bow stays straight on the release.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

montigre said:


> I believe that is exactly what I suggested to the OP WAY back in post #11.....:dontknow:


Apologise montigre. I skirted the post and stop reading it in full when I saw Dominator. I incorrectly thought you were about to talk about the bow and not hand torque. Had I read it through I would have not repeated what you wrote.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

No worries, duc.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I have two dominators, one with me cams and the other with drive cams and have no torque problems with either. I learned the proper hand placement while using the "true shot coach". Also watching a lot of World archery tournaments and paying attention to hand placement on the riser or grip as some prefer. Not saying it will work for everybody but it worked great for me in stopping hand induced torque. I might add that my cams have almost no cam lean at rest and at full draw they are parallel to the string.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Van Handle said:


> Threads like this make me happy and sad at the same time. Try a Death Grip on your PSE. You will have no more problems with grip torque. You wont need tape and your grip will never change.


Agree. If you grab a PSE handle with all your might and don't let go, the results at the paper will be highly entertaining 

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

??? Twelve-ring hasn't replied of late... Okay, I don't use tape on my riser grip, but then I've tested some anti-torque training aids. There are two training aids on the market and both can be used as a trainer or used full time.


The True Shot Coach has been proven and accepted to some degree, but needs explained as some have found manners to cheat it. I carry 3 sizes with me to shooting events. Pic; hand with man in red shirt.

The Slick Shot hasn't been accepted all that much, but proven. This pad is slick and I mean exactly that, slick. Riser just close to being right in the hand the Slick Shot will let the riser grip slipped to where it should. I have 2 models. I gave one of my pistol shooting gloves to the designer of the Slick Shot so to make maybe more acceptable. My paw and Vegas face (40 shots using 2 bows). Before my accident....There, I didn't say shoulder.....Whoops.
.
And there Tim Gillingham and his glove, for whatever reason he uses it. If you don't know Tim you just flunked archery one-on-one. I've got pictures of him with white, black and brown gloves.
I don't know what Tim's glove is, but I just so happen to have a pistol shooting glove (made to reduce the pain of bad kicking handguns). I gave my Hatch shooting glove a test hop just a few minutes ago. No warm up, 4 shots cold. That right #4 arrow, I have got to fletch it one of these days, but pretty much stays in the bull's eye out to 25 yards when I do what I'm supposed to.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Make sure you are not having a lot of face contact with arrow or string . Try shooting with arrow way off face and see if tear goes away. All my pse are yoke tuned pse tune better with stiff arrow


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