# Will 35 # be enough for deer?



## Hambone80 (Jan 28, 2010)

I know I may start a debate on "ethics", but I just bought a 35 @ 28" Martin X-200 and I'm looking to hunt whitetail and turkey next season. I've bowhunted plenty with modern equipment, but am new to traditonal. I normally shoot a 60-70# compound, but went light with my first recurve to get in the swing of things. With a well tuned set up, with 2 blade COC heads, and shots no farther than 20 yards, would this be ethical for deer? There's no minimum draw weight for deer in Missouri, but I'm on the fence on this one. I wouldn't hesitate with a 45 pound bow though.


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## Dry Feather (Sep 16, 2010)

I read where women shooters using 35-40# long bows were getting pass through's on Elk, but the only way they were was to shoot a very heavy arrow with a very heavy point. You will need the weight over speed. It will be very slow, but with enough weight, it will do the job.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

35lbs is enough to kill a deer.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Hambone80 said:


> I know I may start a debate on "ethics", but I just bought a 35 @ 28" Martin X-200 and I'm looking to hunt whitetail and turkey next season. I've bowhunted plenty with modern equipment, but am new to traditonal. I normally shoot a 60-70# compound, but went light with my first recurve to get in the swing of things. With a well tuned set up, with 2 blade COC heads, and shots no farther than 20 yards, would this be ethical for deer? There's no minimum draw weight for deer in Missouri, but I'm on the fence on this one. I wouldn't hesitate with a 45 pound bow though.


Well... the ethics of are this, and ethics has EVERYTHING to do with your hunting, and the ethics of this ethical question you wish to dodge and deny us the opportunity to turn this simple yes or no question into 43 pages of hot debate... is... can you hit your target. If so, 35 pounds will be plenty... from some particular yardage and not enough from others. There are rules of thumbs for everything now days and one of my hunting partners suggested 50% of the of the bow weight I think.... I'm aging.. I was parked under a Kiawe tree on Molokai one early morning and crossing in front of me were a single line of deer, about 5 bucks and 15 or 20 does... it wasn't until the last deer (a buck) was crossing in front of me that I remembered that I was there hunting... :teeth: 

So back to the moral of the story.... ifyou used 50% of your bow weight, 15 to 17 yards would be a distance I'd certainly shoot for expecting a broadside shot to be made....

Main thing... can you hit your target.... and then in a word...

YES!

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

A 35# bow shooting a heavy arrow grains per pound wise tipped with a 2 blade cut on contact broadhead taking out both lungs on a broadside shot will dispatch a deer with no problems. I have two light poundage hunting bows and one if them is a 37# recurve. In my state of Texas, there is no minimum bow poundage either.


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## Chief55 (Oct 6, 2010)

In Florida the minimum weight is 35 pounds. I agree with Night Wing. I have been struggling with this myself. I have tendonitis in both elbows so I can no longer pull a heavy weight bow without a lot of pain so have been reduced to using a 40# kids bow. On top of that I am having trouble just carrying around more than just a couple of pounds for hours without being in a lot of pain. This is causing me to take an real honest look at getting a low poundage recurve for myself as I really don't want to give up bow hunting. Can't go to a crossbow cause I can still pull the minimum weight even if it hurts and would not enjoy carrying it around, they weigh more than compound bows. I guess my main concern is not that the bow would do the job but that I could get good enough to shoot well with it. Not doing all that great with the 40# bow. Just shot under a deer yesterday that would have been a really easy shot with a 60-70# bow. I need to force myself to a 20 yard limit. The getting old thing is not working to well for me.:dontknow:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

It's been said already, hitting the spot is primary right next to sharp cut on contact heads, then comes total arrow weight, and last is velocity. In kenetic energy the velocity is squared which makes it the primary driver in K energy. I think this is where speed bow marketing comes from. That and flat trajectory. But in the end an arrow is a cutting tool. You don't need much energy transfer per inch of cut, unless you are shooting blunts or hit a bone (miss).


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

in arkansas, no, 40# minimum.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Eldermike said:


> It's been said already, hitting the spot is primary right next to sharp cut on contact heads, then comes total arrow weight, and last is velocity. In kenetic energy the velocity is squared which makes it the primary driver in K energy. I think this is where speed bow marketing comes from. That and flat trajectory. But in the end an arrow is a cutting tool. You don't need much energy transfer per inch of cut, unless you are shooting blunts or hit a bone (miss).


Not to hijack this, but kinetic engergy gets the arrow there, momentum is what gets the job done... if you want to sorta simplify the KE/Momentum argument some... and it's the velocity squared part that makes this so.... if speeds up, squared and it slows down, squared.... momentum just keeps chugging right along... and its the arrow that provides the energy for momentum... not the string... so arrow weight (and broadhead sharpness, ferrule/arrow shaft diameter issues) is primarily the driver here for penetration.

This supports your velocity statement as being last in the equation.

In Hawaii, it's 30# for compound, 35# for recurves, and 40# for longbows.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

A slow hit is better than a fast miss, put it in the boiler room and collect your venison.


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## nulfisin (May 19, 2009)

You need a close -- under 20 yards, preferably by a lot -- shot. And check your state's laws. In IL, what you are planning would be illegal.


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

No, it's not enough to consistently kill deer imo.

Sorry.

Do you want real opinions or a bunch of feel-good BS?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

A 35# bow with the right heads, a well placed shot and limiting the distance to about 15 -16 yards will take down a whitetail.

As for _consistently_ killing a deer; there a many shooting bows of greater draw-weights that can't consistenly kill deer.


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## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

I've seen alot of these type threads on several forums. The consensus seems to be that a 35# bow,well tuned, with 2 blade cut on contact heads seems to be inferior to a 50# selfbow shooting cane arrows with a stone point. Kill one with the low poundage recurve and everyone assumes its luck, kill one with a stone point and they are carving a crown for you to wear. Seems really odd to me


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

native americans made meat with thirty pounds...and stone points


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

I've been bowhunting 46 years with light poundage bows between 36#-42# shooting very heavy arrows, grains per pound wise and in my case over 15 GPP, tipped with 2 blade broadheads aiming for a broadside lung shot (which takes out both lungs) between 12-17 yards which almost all the time results in a pass through shot. This is a fact, not an opinion. 

The ones giving their "negative opinions" on killing deer with light poundage bows of 35#-40#, I pay no attention to since I've usually been bowhunting longer than they've been alive. I go by my past results when hunting deer with light weight poundage bows during my last 46 years. And the ones giving the negative opinions have never shot a deer with a 35# bow. A deer is a thin skinned and not heavily muscled animal. When I think of a thick skinned and heavily muscled animal, I think of an african rhino. This is why my present two bows are 37# and 42#.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Hambone80 said:


> I know I may start a debate on "ethics", but I just bought a 35 @ 28" Martin X-200 and I'm looking to hunt whitetail and turkey next season. I've bowhunted plenty with modern equipment, but am new to traditonal. I normally shoot a 60-70# compound, but went light with my first recurve to get in the swing of things. With a well tuned set up, with 2 blade COC heads, and shots no farther than 20 yards, would this be ethical for deer? There's no minimum draw weight for deer in Missouri, but I'm on the fence on this one. I wouldn't hesitate with a 45 pound bow though.



Well,I read the whole thread and then reread this post. Nowhere did I see the word "drawlength". If you are really short draw then that 35lb er could become a toy real fast. If you are 31"draw then probably close enough With a heavy arrow.

You have to be careful about taking advice from the paper puncher croud if you want to hunt with the bow. If you have been shooting 60-70 in compound then you could use a heavier weight trad bow. Yes,you could kill a deer with a stick too,but why not just be realistic to start with?


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## Chief55 (Oct 6, 2010)

Night Wing said:


> I've been bowhunting 46 years with light poundage bows between 36#-42# shooting very heavy arrows, grains per pound wise and in my case over 15 GPP, tipped with 2 blade broadheads aiming for a broadside lung shot (which takes out both lungs) between 12-17 yards which almost all the time results in a pass through shot. This is a fact, not an opinion.
> 
> The ones giving their "negative opinions" on killing deer with light poundage bows of 35#-40#, I pay no attention to since I've usually been bowhunting longer than they've been alive. I go by my past results when hunting deer with light weight poundage bows during my last 46 years. And the ones giving the negative opinions have never shot a deer with a 35# bow. A deer is a thin skinned and not heavily muscled animal. When I think of a thick skinned and heavily muscled animal, I think of an african rhino. This is why my present two bows are 37# and 42#.


I have bow hunted since 73 but always with 50-60# compounds. Had to stop due to injuries and just resently started again with a smaller bow. This is showing me I'll be fine with a lower draw weight bow if I limit my shots to 20 yards. Have been wanting to get a 40# recurve so I can continue to enjoy bow hunting. I am very happy to read this thread and all of the inputs. So glad you brought up the subject Hambone. Best of luck with yours. Thanks


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

In my opinion, I'd take Night Wing's advise. Not only does he have years of experience with light weight bows, but he's specifically putting his money where his mouth is. To wit, he didn't buy a 37# bow because it's what he could afford; he bought an expensive bow in light weight because he knows from experience that it's effective.

I just saw a video of Ted Nugent answering this same question. He's a fanatic on the subject. He says the biggest problem in bowhunting is bowhunters being overbowed. You have to draw effectively with an animal at close range. He says his wife has shot everything with a 38# bow, including a zebra in Africa. I'm guessing that a zebra has thicker skin than a whitetail.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _“We’ve done a lot of testing on wild boar ranges where you’re not held so much to game laws and you can actually experiment with light poundage,” says Berkampas. “I was down to a 32-pound bow and still shot through them…I shot [a boar] with a large 3-bladed broadhead (to try to minimize penetration). I hit ribs going in and out and it wasn’t any problem.”_....Vic Berkampas, Vic's Archery


...


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

35 pounds is the minimum poundage in the state of Alabama.
Knew a fella back in the 70's that hunted with an old Bear all fiberglass bow that was 35 pounds at his draw.....he killed a lot of deer, more than I did.:teeth:


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## muzzyman1212 (Mar 28, 2009)

youll be good unless you hit a bone then nope


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> He says his wife has shot everything with a 38# bow, including a zebra in Africa.


That 'may' be true, but her compound produces the KE of a 65# recurve.

Get real.


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## Dwill (Aug 26, 2010)

I think you should definatly go with Night Wings advice!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents - 

Just curious, how many guys here would be willing to take an arrow in the chest from a *good* 35# bow? By good, I mean a 35# bow throwing a 350 gr arrow at 170-180 fps. 

Viper1 out.


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## Hambone80 (Jan 28, 2010)

WindWalker said:


> ...


I've read this same article online, and I think this is pretty amazing. I plan on using an arrow with at least 12 grains per inch of draw weight and COC heads. My draw is 29" and Vic Berkampas advocates arrows weighing in at 12-14 gpi of draw weight. I think with a well tuned set up and close shots I should be good. Thanks for the feed back gents.


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## damascusdave (Apr 26, 2009)

Hambone80 said:


> I know I may start a debate on "ethics", but I just bought a 35 @ 28" Martin X-200 and I'm looking to hunt whitetail and turkey next season. I've bowhunted plenty with modern equipment, but am new to traditonal. I normally shoot a 60-70# compound, but went light with my first recurve to get in the swing of things. With a well tuned set up, with 2 blade COC heads, and shots no farther than 20 yards, would this be ethical for deer? There's no minimum draw weight for deer in Missouri, but I'm on the fence on this one. I wouldn't hesitate with a 45 pound bow though.


Just remembered an experience I had shooting an X200 in a shop.
I draw the better part of 30 inches and when I shot the bow (marked 45 pounds at 28 inches) it really seemed heavy. Fortunately they had a good rack to put the bow onto with a digital scale so that the actual draw weight could be measured. At 29.5 inches that bow was already pulling 52 pounds. Even allowing for some stacking I doubt that bow was only 45 at 28.
I guess what I am saying is why not check the bow and see what it is pulling at your actual draw length.
Besides you have two compounds, what makes you think you will only have one recurve by next season. Bet you have at least one more in the 40 pound range.
Above all else enjoy yourself and pat yourself on the back for trying something different.
DDave


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Just curious, how many guys here would be willing to take an arrow in the chest from a *good* 35# bow? By good, I mean a 35# bow throwing a 350 gr arrow at 170-180 fps.
> 
> Viper1 out.




Same thing I've asked a freind of mine that hunts with a 65 # bow.........he said no.:teeth:


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Just curious, how many guys here would be willing to take an arrow in the chest from a *good* 35# bow? By good, I mean a 35# bow throwing a 350 gr arrow at 170-180 fps.


This just comes down to personal preference. With a light poundage bow, I prefer a heavy arrow over speed for distances under 20 yards when bowhunting deer. In other words, I wouldn't want a 350 grain arrow for a 35# bow giving a 10 GPP arrow which is what you've listed above even though the arrow is traveling between 170-180 fps. I would want an arrow as close as I can get to 14 GPP or more. Taking the human out of the equation, when bowhunting for deer with a 35# recurve, I'd choose "for myself" this bow and arrow setup:

Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 35# @ 30". BS: 10StrDyna97. BrcHt: 7.625". Arrow: 32", 2016. PW: 170 Grains. AW: 553 Grains. SPD: 152 fps. GPP: (15.80). FOC: 14.9%

If I had to choose an alternative arrow setup, it would be this:

Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 35# @ 30". BS: 10StrDyna97. BrcHt: 7.750". Arrow: 32", 2013. PW: 140 Grains. AW: 478 Grains. SPD: 162 fps. GPP: (13.65). FOC: 14.1%

I can't choose a 1916 because I shoot 32" BOP arrows and a full length 1916 shaft is 31".


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

NW - 

Like you said, personal preference. If that's what gives you confidence, that's what you use. Really is that simple. 

Viper1 out.


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## Clay34 (Sep 15, 2010)

Wis has a 30 pound minimum draw weight. Saw on last night's Dream Season, one of the Drury's daughter shot a nice buck with a bow set to 30 pounds. She made a nice shot close. Ethics are about you and not so much the equipment you use. You put your own restrictions on. Only you will know if you have a reasonable chance for success.


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## nulfisin (May 19, 2009)

Going back to one of Viper's comments, will a 35-lb. bow really fling an arrow of reasonable weight 180 fps? If so, that should get the job done. Recognizing that every bow is different, are there are any tables with information on speeds at given weights and draw lengths? This is just a matter of curiosity.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

nulfish -

I don't think so, because there are too many variables. With more "traditional" bows (as in one-piece wood and fiberglass numbers), even factory models, there will be some variation from bow to bow. Then you get into string materials, number of strands, add-ons, EXACT arrow weight, draw length and even shooter technique. 

170 - 180 fps from a 35# with a 9-10 gr/lb arrow draw to about 29" isn't unreasonable. (I'm using 29" because that's my DL.) Basically it's a 35-36# bow with an 1816. I have one 30# pair of limbs for a target bow that will do that with a 1716 at nearly 11 gr/lb, but that bow is a bonefide freak. (BTW - IMHO, 9-10 gr/lb is more than enough for any North Am purpose.)

So no, I don't think you'll find that cataloged anywhere, or at least not anything really reliable, but I'll bet someone will come up with a website that does :crazy:

Viper1 out.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

To put the "moot" on whether a 35# stickbow with the right and sharp broadhead can bring down a deer; if arrows shot from a handheld "slingshot" can down deer, wild pigs, and turkeys, I would say that the debate is somewhat moot.


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> To put the "moot" on whether a 35# stickbow with the right and sharp broadhead can bring down a deer; if arrows shot from a handheld "slingshot" can down deer, wild pigs, and turkeys, I would say that the debate is somewhat moot.


We're not discussing "CAN", we're discussing reliably and humanely dispatching animals every time.

Theoretically. I "COULD" kill a deer by whacking over the head with a rolled up National Geographic magazine, doesn't mean I should try it.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Not to hijack this, but kinetic engergy gets the arrow there, momentum is what gets the job done... if you want to sorta simplify the KE/Momentum argument some... and it's the velocity squared part that makes this so.... if speeds up, squared and it slows down, squared.... momentum just keeps chugging right along... and its the arrow that provides the energy for momentum... not the string... so arrow weight (and broadhead sharpness, ferrule/arrow shaft diameter issues) is primarily the driver here for penetration.
> 
> This supports your velocity statement as being last in the equation.
> 
> ...


I agree, I was just trying to keep the cookies on the bottom shelf.


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## jbiorn (Oct 22, 2007)

KID VICIOUS, your argument is completely invalid. I have seen guys with a .300 Win Mag who couldn't reliably and humanely kill a deer every time. Hell, you and I both fall in that category------one must always put human error in the equation.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Kid...the "point" has went over your head. 

I have no doubt in my former military mind that even an 80 pound bow is not always reliable in the hands of all, nor is guaranteed to always humanely (quickly and completely) dispatch an animal....they don't lock their knees and become catatonic. As long as the shooter knows and abides by his or her limitations and the limitations of the bow, a 35# bow will do the job.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

With a given arrow weight, I can obtain the same arrow speed and distance from a 35# bow as about any higher draw weight bow. Grains per pound is grains per pound. If that arrow weight and speed still equates to sufficient energy to kill a deer, what limitations are there to shooting a 35# bow? 

It's either sufficient or limited. If limited, is it limited as such that the much higher weights are more reserved for much larger game, game very few would be hunting anyway?


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> Kid...the "point" has went over your head.


Nonsense. I have a firm grasp of the subject matter at hand.



> As long as the shooter knows and abides by his or her limitations and the limitations of the bow, a 35# bow will do the job.


The shooter cannot alter said 'limitations of the bow', nor can he change alter the deers reaction to the shot. The shooter can stick it in the boiler room and not get the vitals without enough KE. Some myths really annoy me, and one of them is adequate penetration on deer being a 'forgone conclusion', regardless of the bow used.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _The shooter can stick it in the boiler room and not get the vitals without enough KE. _


Wow! Do you hunt some type of prehistoric deer with a prehistoric anatomy? 

Just how thick do you believe the flesh and connective tissue is between the exterior/rib cage and the animal's thorax, the area (thorax a/k/a chest cavity) in which the respiratory organs and other vital organs are contained? 

I don't know what type of strange large animal you hunt, but in most animals of the deer family, the lungs are quite large, are attached to the chest walls by connective tissue, and take up a large area in the frontal area of the thorax. 

If you punch a hole in the thorax, the animal experiences a sucking chest wound, allowing the chest cavity to fill with air and blood..a no-no, and now the animal will suffer pnuemothorax; meaning that the lungs will not be able to expand and the animal literally suffocates. A punctured lung compounds the pnuemothorax effect because now the lung or lungs has/have also deflated, resulting in an expedited and rapid drop of oxygen levels, an onset of a rapid heartbeat, and soon the heart will stop beating.

People die all the time as result of pnuemothorax after having been stabbed with a small pocket knife.

Can deer survive such wounds? It has been claimed they have. I don't know because I have never witnessed the phenomena. If they did; because the deer population does not have deer corpsmen (field medic) to apply a pressure bandage and get the wounded deer to a field hospital, I would have to assume that the hole(s) somehow were plugged and remained plugged until the animal somehow healed.

Do all hunters using heavier draw-weights than 35# always hit the lungs/heart.. or even the chest cavity, always get through-and-throughs, always have their deer drop dead on the spot, or always recover the deer? I suppose you can answer that....maybe.

Am I a doctor or a veterinarian? No! But I do have 2 hunting buddies who are large animal veterinarians and have been for 40+ years. I have also been bowhunting a long time and have killed and dressed many deer.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

KID VICIOUS said:


> The shooter can stick it in the boiler room and not get the vitals without enough KE.


Just curious....do you have personal experience with light bows or primitive bows while hunting?

Thanks,

Ray :shade:


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> I don't know what type of strange large animal you hunt, but in most animals of the deer family, the lungs are quite large, are attached to the chest walls by connective tissue, and take up a large area in the frontal area of the thorax.


Deer are not stationary. Yes, if a deer stands there like a statue, penetration is much easier. Poke a hole and watch it bleed. The problem arises when deer REACT to the shot, which in my experience is most of the time. Dont kid yourself into believing every 'good' shot' will kill a deer every time and efficiently with a bow that lacks enough KE. Total nonesense driven by internet drivel. Driving a projectile through a moving target is not as easy as you would make it out to be.



> Just curious....do you have personal experience with light bows or primitive bows while hunting?


Yes, I do Ray. They are marginal killers at their best, and wounding machines at their worst.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

KID VICIOUS said:


> Yes, I do Ray. They are marginal killers at their best, and wounding machines at their worst.


I was hoping you would elaborate more. Could you please explain in further detail of your personal experience?

Thanks,

Ray :shade:


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## archer756 (Aug 10, 2009)

Here one for all, stand out at 20 yrd and lets shoot at you and then you can tell us all if 35 lbs is able to KILL!


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

shoot your self in the foot with a sharp broadhead at 35# & let us know if it penetrates far enough. should be a fair test of penatration.


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## Archer2023 (Apr 27, 2008)

Dunno what state you are in, But Not in ILLINOIS, but then again nothing is legal here!!


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> shoot your self in the foot with a sharp broadhead at 35# & let us know if it penetrates far enough. should be a fair test of penatration.


 :teeth:

Kid: Everything you last said will apply to just about any bow. When you say _"Driving a projectile through a moving target is not as easy as you would make it out to be,"_

...just what kind of movement are you referring to?


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## Chief55 (Oct 6, 2010)

damascusdave said:


> I draw the better part of 30 inches and when I shot the bow (marked 45 pounds at 28 inches) it really seemed heavy. Fortunately they had a good rack to put the bow onto with a digital scale so that the actual draw weight could be measured. At 29.5 inches that bow was already pulling 52 pounds. DDave


This is a very good point. I had a simlar experence at a shop yesterday. Point is, that 35# draw weight is messured at 28 inches and could be more or less for you depending on your draw length. I have read that as a rule of thumb it goes up 2.5# per inch after 28 inches. I ended up buying a 40# longbow I tested in the shop but I have a 30.5 draw length so when it stacks up it could be 45-47.5# for me. Your bow in my hands would be over 40#.


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Clay34 said:


> Wis has a 30 pound minimum draw weight. Saw on last night's Dream Season, one of the Drury's daughter shot a nice buck with a bow set to 30 pounds. She made a nice shot close. Ethics are about you and not so much the equipment you use. You put your own restrictions on. Only you will know if you have a reasonable chance for success.


Which is the way the state of Iowa sees things, as there is no minimum draw weight for deer:

LEGAL METHOD OF TAKE
Archery: Longbows, recurve bows, and
compound bows shooting broadhead arrows are
permitted. No explosive or chemical devices may
be attached to the arrow or broadhead. There are
no minimum draw weights for bows or minimum
diameter for broadheads. Arrows must be at least
18 inches long. Draw locks on compound bows are
legal.

Myself, I would use a 40#, but then again my drawlength is ~27 inches.

Some people make the same type of arguements against the smaller caliber muzzleloaders, but the best hunter I ever met used a 45 cal tradational flintlock - one shot, one deer year after year.


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## woodbow (Apr 13, 2003)

No, it's not enough.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WOW! Whatever happened to 'common sense'?

I have a F150 with straight six that 'can' drag a trailer with a small dozer on it. But,the F350 diesel works a whole lot better and the mighty Dodge with the Cummins is even better yet.
So,which one would you choose?

I could kill deer all day long with a .22 rifle if I made a perfect head shot. But that does not make it practical.

Yes a thirty five lb bow 'can' kill a deer. But if the individual is capable of more poundage then he should use that to his advantage. If he can drag a 70lb compound over the hump then surely he is capable of shooting a little more weight with a trad bow. I just don't see a reason not to do so. Yes he "can' kill deer. But,no, he probably should not do it unless he just likes the challenge and is a very good hunter and an exceptionally good shot with that bow.

Maybe I have just missed the whole "point" too.:dontknow:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

IAIS604 said:


> Which is the way the state of Iowa sees things, as there is no minimum draw weight for deer:
> 
> LEGAL METHOD OF TAKE
> Archery: Longbows, recurve bows, and
> ...


So,it would be legal for my 10 yr old grand daughter to hunt with her little kid bow as long as I put some type of broadhead on her arrow. 

BUT,it's not at all practical and I don't think anyone here would do it.

COMMON SENSE?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

There was an article a little while ago in _Primitive Archer_ concerning the use of "bird points" on large game. For those who don't know what I'm refering to, a "bird point" is the broad category of small stone arrow heads people find and, due to their size, assume were for small game.

Billy Berger constructed a 40# osage selfbow with natural fiber string and, on reed and other primitive arrows, tested small stone points on a recently killed buck. The bow was shooting 140 fps with rougly 400 gr arrows at 28" draw.

Several arrows broke rib bones. All punctured both lungs if I'm not mistaken, and all but one poked out the other side of the chest/hide. A modern recurve with better arrows could easily achieve the same results: Bambi dead.

For the record, I'm a heavy bow fan. The bow I'm playing with now is a hybrid bow I built pulling about 77# now at 29.5". It's a mean ol' tank but hardly necessary. My friend Art is shooting a 30# straight limbed longbow I made him for target shooting; it is slow and even with good arrows I wouldn't trust it on to humanely kill a deer. However, I have made a few lighter bows that at 35-40#, I could see hit and pentrate a target as well as some slower, haevier bows I've seen in the 45-50# range. 

It's your call. The bow you have: is it quick? Is it hard hitting with matched arrows and a good head? There's no definitive way about this as we've all seen both good and bad bows at different poundages. Heck, I have an old 80-90# selfbow I made (badly rebuilt actually) that I wouldn't trust for real hunting- and that's why I don't even shoot the thing. It has so much string follow that my 600 gr arrows seem to flop out of it. 

It's your call. Maybe test your set up on a deer someone else kills before taking it to the woods. Here in PA 35# is legal for deer and turkey. I've seen some lighter bows that shot excepetionally well for their weight, and at the same time of seen bows in the 40-55# range, especially some of the lesser ones I've made myself when I began building, that would have been the most irresponsible weapons to use on an actual animal.


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> ...just what kind of movement are you referring to?


Straight down.

Kegan, thrusting an arrow through a stiff rotting corpse does NOT simulate hunting conditions. lol


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Movement = _"Straight down."_ :confused2:


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> Movement = "Straight down."


You don't hunt much do you.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

KID VICIOUS said:


> We're not discussing "CAN", we're discussing reliably and humanely dispatching animals every time.
> 
> Theoretically. I "COULD" kill a deer by whacking over the head with a rolled up National Geographic magazine, doesn't mean I should try it.


 No you couldnt


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> No you couldnt


Are you willing to let me try it on you? :darkbeer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _You don't hunt much do you_


.....:confused2:


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## Dwill (Aug 26, 2010)

KID VICIOUS said:


> Kegan, thrusting an arrow through a stiff rotting corpse does NOT simulate hunting conditions. lol


Notice he said RECENTLY killed buck...rotting and stiff would be after days 

Back to the subject, I personally think a #35 bow can kill a deer all day long with the correct shot placement, a well tuned heavy arrow, and sharp broadheads. But out of personal preference (my own preference, idc if you use a #25 bow as long as your consistent and dont try anything outragous) I like em between the #45-55 range. I am considering a light bow for small game though.

but to the OP get a #35 bow and kill a deer for the spite of it!!!! LOL


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Whatever ANYONE decides...they should shoot the heaviest draw weight they can comfortably shoot accurately in all their hunting conditions and situations and make sure it's legal. 

It's as simple as that!

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

KID VICIOUS said:


> Kegan, thrusting an arrow through a stiff rotting corpse does NOT simulate hunting conditions. lol


The deer had been dead for only a few hours, tops. The author had attempted to make it as realiztic as possible. Not unlike the Ashby studies done on buffulo. But you are right, and a more modern or better designed set up should get similiar results on a live animal.


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## squish2519 (Dec 14, 2006)

KID VICIOUS said:


> Straight down.
> 
> Kegan, thrusting an arrow through a stiff rotting corpse does NOT simulate hunting conditions. lol


IMHO (based on your previous comments), it sounds to me like the deer is reacting to your form (after the shot). Deer tend to react more to a hunter's movement at time of release, then arrow flight or even arrow sound.


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## KID VICIOUS (Jan 30, 2010)

> Deer tend to react more to a hunter's movement at time of release, then arrow flight or even arrow sound.


Hogwash.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Being the always agreeable and civil person that I am, I won't ditto the Kid's _"Hogwash,"_ but will say that I cannot concur that deer tend to react _*more *_to a hunter's movement at time of release than arrow flight or arrow sound, but I am certain that there are times when deer have detected and reacted to seeing the hunter's movement before the shot was made. 

Are there some who tend to constantly blow a shot because they get too excited and give away their presence before they shoot? I am sure there are.


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## stiknstring (Aug 27, 2008)

It is too easy to argue generalities. I think that you COULD kill with a light weight bow in the thirty pound range just as well as you can take deer and such with a lousy little 22. Should you do it? I think you would be foolish to put all your money on that one. I agree with those who say you should shoot they heaviest bow you can shoot COMFORTABLY and ACCURATELY. 

I also dislike internet tough guys who only get on to argue without offering data driven facts. Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics....in the end you are still ******ed.


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

:elf_moon:Everyone knows you need at least 90lbs to kill a deer, most have metal plates protecting their vital area. The arrow must be heavy, at least 1200 grains and traveling at 250fps minimum.


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## stiknstring (Aug 27, 2008)

I wish more states would adopt that minimum.


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## Dwill (Aug 26, 2010)

rraming said:


> :elf_moon:Everyone knows you need at least 90lbs to kill a deer, most have metal plates protecting their vital area. The arrow must be heavy, at least 1200 grains and traveling at *250fps minimum*.


WRONG!!!! Has to be at least 320 fps


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Dwill said:


> WRONG!!!! Has to be at least 320 fps


Here in PA you only need a 275 fps minimum, but the draw has to be at least 95#.


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## stiknstring (Aug 27, 2008)

Kegan would be the only guy out there hunting lmao...


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

stiknstring said:


> Kegan would be the only guy out there hunting lmao...


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Dwill (Aug 26, 2010)

stiknstring said:


> Kegan would be the only guy out there hunting lmao...


His selfbows push #120


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Dwill said:


> His selfbows push #120


Only in phsyical weight, some of them are really heavy to try and hold at arm's length...


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## Dwill (Aug 26, 2010)

kegan said:


> Only in phsyical weight, some of them are really heavy to try and hold at arm's length...


We all know you can manage.. (i think your chuck norris's long lost brother)


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## Schultzy (Jan 2, 2010)

KID VICIOUS said:


> You don't hunt much do you.


How many traditional kills have you been Involved on? To answer the OP, yes 35lbs Is enough with the right arrow setup.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

This is what some legends are made of. Long live kegan the Conqueror! Grrrrrrrrrr! :teeth:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

KID VICIOUS said:


> Nonsense. I have a firm grasp of the subject matter at hand.
> 
> 
> 
> The shooter cannot alter said 'limitations of the bow', nor can he change alter the deers reaction to the shot. The shooter can stick it in the boiler room and not get the vitals without enough KE. Some myths really annoy me, and one of them is adequate penetration on deer being a 'forgone conclusion', regardless of the bow used.


Not to belabor a point, but KE only gets the arrow there, momentum is what gets it through the animal. True, momentum because of velocity is a component of KE, but momentum is carried by the weight of the arrow and helped by the type of broadhead one is using in penetration. Once the arrow leaves the string, it is the arrow itself that carries the day. Why this is of interest, is that KE can be very high and yet momentum can virtually anemic.

For example:

grains	500
speed	170
KE	32.07903208
Momentum	0.377400377


grains	400
speed	200
KE	35.52003552
Momentum	0.355200355


grains	600
speed	140
KE	26.10722611
Momentum	0.372960373

As you can see, the highest KE values come with speed, but the penetration (momentum) is better with slower heavier arrows, and when the head hits the hide that is what matters.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom -

Minor point with the momentum thing. Momentum assumes impact. The actual impact of a broadhead is incredibly small (but not zero) compared to a field point or bullet going through a hide. Yes, bone would be a different story, but think about the types of bone you're likely to encounter on a good chest shot and it seems to me that on whitetail sized game, any bone big enough to stop an arrow from a 35# bow, would also stop a heavier arrow from a 60# bow. I know there are exceptions to this, just seems to be way too complicated and IMHO, unnecessary. A good shot will always be a good shot and a poor one will always be a poor one. Doubt a little extra momentum will make any kind of difference in 99.9% on the cases. If you're worried about the other 0.1%, just use a 300 Win Mag. 

Gents - 

It's been my opinion for some time, that the reason the debates go on and on here, and probably always will continue to do so is just because that at the distances most "trad" bowhunters hunt and the size and hides of the animals usually being hunted, most things we want to worry about just don't matter. 

For every guy who prefers a heavy bow and heavy arrows, there'll be another guy (or gal) who's been just as successful with much lighter stuff and any combination in between. I know some folks really enjoy these debates, pushing their own theories and experiences, but in the end common sense still wins. Use the heaviest bow you can COMFORTABLY handle, keep your braodheads sharp and learn how to tune and shoot the damn thing before going afield. The rest really is BS, IMHO. 

Viper1 out.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

momentum or KE not one and the same thing argument is valid and true. However, as an example: when considering feathers at 10,000 fps vrs a mack truck going 2 fps, knowing which one of these is dangerous is important. But in the case of considering bow draw weight the thing thats going to change most is velocity.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

> But in the case of considering bow draw weight the thing thats going to change most is velocity.


Here's my conundrum on this subject. If my 400 grain arrow has sufficient mass weight for hunting, and my 38# target bow can and does throw that arrow at 195fps - 10.5gpp (200 fps or more @ lower gpp), how does the *velocity* of a 50# bow differ from that other than it can throw a heavier arrow for the same speed? This assumes my 400grain arrow @ 195fps is sufficient arrow for hunting. After that, it's more an argument of displacement - the size of the object in motion. A *larger* mass will do more damage, but my arrow will not be any smaller than a 1000grain arrow.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Here's my conundrum on this subject. If my 400 grain arrow has sufficient mass weight for hunting, and my 38# target bow can and does throw that arrow at 195fps - 10.5gpp (200 fps or more @ lower gpp), how does the *velocity* of a 50# bow differ from that other than it can throw a heavier arrow for the same speed? This assumes my 400grain arrow @ 195fps is sufficient arrow for hunting. After that, it's more an argument of displacement - the size of the object in motion. A *larger* mass will do more damage, but my arrow will not be any smaller than a 1000grain arrow.


I was speaking in general terms as draw weight increase = velocity increase when given about the same arrow weight. 
But it's easy to see from this thread that there is no cookie cutter answer to the issue. Since hunting heads are sold within a somwhat narrow range of weights/diameters and arrow shafts don't really differ all that much in weight per inch I can see why states pick draw weight as the thing to regulate. However, there are people that know how to get more from 38lbs than others do.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Eldermike said:


> I was speaking in general terms as draw weight increase = velocity increase when given about the same arrow weight.
> But it's easy to see from this thread that there is no cookie cutter answer to the issue. Since hunting heads are sold within a somwhat narrow range of weights/diameters and arrow shafts don't really differ all that much in weight per inch I can see why states pick draw weight as the thing to regulate. However, there are people that know how to get more from 38lbs than others do.


True, I think there has to be a baseline for sufficient energy for the game and leave it at that. Some variables are constant, like arrow/arrow head size. All else, gets very convoluted and the speed argument grows, or the arrow weight argument grows, etc.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2010)

A 35# bow can successfully kill a deer. To do this it REQUIRES a close range and accurate shot. That requires that you can accurately and consistently shoot. If you go into the bowhunting forum on here you will see lots of threads about people losing deer, even with bows/blades that are suppose to be the new gift to hunters.

I think the best way to harvest a deer with a recurve would be to hunt with it next year, and take this year to really spend time working on everything required to accurately shoot it. That's sort of what I am trying to do this year, when I have the time to work on it. 

This has all been my opinion of course. 

Now I have a question....1816 was suggested for the arrow, what would the suggested broadhead weight be? 125 or so 2 blade cut on (super sharp) contact?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

phoenix - 

Figure out what weight tunes best with field points, then find a matching weight BH. I'm not a heavier is better fan, so anywhere from 75 - 125 grs are in the ballpark. If the design of the BH is decent, the flight characteristics should be close. All I used to do was tune with filed points and then shoot the same arrows with BHs. If the they hit the same spot, it was close enough. 

Viper1 out.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ray- legends or tall tales?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Ray- legends or tall tales?


If ya can back it or I should say, pull 'em like you can...definitely legends 

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If ya can back it or I should say, pull 'em like you can...definitely legends
> 
> Ray :shade:


I dunno... I'm currently playing with a 77# hybrid prototype... makes me realize I need to get out shooting *alot* more:lol:!


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## Hambone80 (Jan 28, 2010)

Ok Gents, I'm shooting full length Carbon Express Heritage 90's with 125 grain Magnus Stinger 2 blade heads. My total arrow weight is 438 grains and I am pulling 37# at 28". I draw to 29", so I'm probably just shy of 40 pounds. I can stack the arrows at fifteen yards, and let me tell you they fly straight and hit hard. I know without a doubt that I can kill within 20 yards. Thanks for all the feed back guys. After a while I plan on moving up to the upper 40# range, but this pansy bow will do for now.


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## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

Yes. No. Maybe. It depends. Legally and ethically.

Some do more w less, some do less w more, some do less w less, and some do more w more...

500g arrows at 145 fps and no shots at over 20 yds have been doing the job for me for over 40 yrs now. Well enough that I suspect even a bit less than that combo of Ke and momentum would do their job if you do yours. 

Your job is get or be close, be accurate, tune so you have a quiet bow w sharp arrows flying straight. Know how to follow and find what you hit when it doesn't go down in sight.


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## Az archery (Jun 9, 2020)

Night Wing said:


> This just comes down to personal preference. With a light poundage bow, I prefer a heavy arrow over speed for distances under 20 yards when bowhunting deer. In other words, I wouldn't want a 350 grain arrow for a 35# bow giving a 10 GPP arrow which is what you've listed above even though the arrow is traveling between 170-180 fps. I would want an arrow as close as I can get to 14 GPP or more. Taking the human out of the equation, when bowhunting for deer with a 35# recurve, I'd choose "for myself" this bow and arrow setup:
> 
> Blacktail TD Recurve: 66", 35# @ 30". BS: 10StrDyna97. BrcHt: 7.625". Arrow: 32", 2016. PW: 170 Grains. AW: 553 Grains. SPD: 152 fps. GPP: (15.80). FOC: 14.9%
> 
> ...


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

If it's legal, then yes!

Enjoy your hunting. Merry Christmas!


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

trapperDave said:


> native americans made meat with thirty pounds...and stone points


And the animal had 25 arrows in it.


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## smithca1988 (29 d ago)

Guest said:


> A 35# bow can successfully kill a deer. To do this it REQUIRES a close range and accurate shot. That requires that you can accurately and consistently shoot. If you go into the bowhunting forum on here you will see lots of threads about people losing deer, even with bows/blades that are suppose to be the new gift to hunters.
> 
> I think the best way to harvest a deer with a recurve would be to hunt with it next year, and take this year to really spend time working on everything required to accurately shoot it. That's sort of what I am trying to do this year, when I have the time to work on it.
> 
> ...


Yes, the Plains hunters of the pre white contact in the USA used bows of 35/36 pounds up to no more then 40 pounds. These bows however were compact at no more then 54 inches or 137 cm in a B shaped longbow/shortbow design of often Cedar wraped rawhide/laminate of sinew on both sides or if living lower down in latitude, the Osage Orange.




Chris1ny said:


> If it's legal, then yes!
> 
> Enjoy your hunting. Merry Christmas!


I say no as South Dakota (where I live) has 30 Pounds but would a 30 pound bow, the Bear Firebird or SAS Robinhood be enough to get a deer if you had an anything tag or an antlerless tag and a Mule came up, nope I do not think so considering but a 38--40 pound non compound/lever bow would be enough for the area if you take into account the more open field style of hunting and even with trying to use an old all fiberglass bow/slower PVC bow with actual string of Dacron B-55 this should work better.

This being said in USA outside of South Dakota and Pennsylvania, minimum is 35 pounds for 99% of USA, with I think Alaska as the only state now forcing 45 pounds for Deer as they skip the Deer and go right to Elk needs, I think Elk is more common then Deer in Alaska.

Then Wisconsin Used to be when I lived there 40 pounds in 1990's and 2000's until 2009 or so when my friend had upgraded his first gen of no Mathews label 1999 15--35 pound Genesis to take the old Pro cams (nearly same as Gen--X) that maxed out at 40--42 pounds just to hunt in 2005 or so and they changed it right after in 2007. He got an old T sight to use from Garage Sale, he hated using the modern hunting sights being before this he hunted a season with the old T style pin sight on a recurve as his functional compound bow was too low in poundage for hunting. He used a release device for a while with a metal d loop, a pair of pliers with an added spring but then went back to fingers using some black electrical tape for the fingers to grip more comfortably the finger guards, the slip in type.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

smithca1988 said:


> Yes, the Plains hunters of the pre white contact in the USA used bows of 35/36 pounds up to no more then 30 pounds. These bows however were compact at no more then 54 inches or 137 cm in a B shaped longbow/shortbow design of often Cedar or if living lower down in latitude,
> 
> I say no as South Dakota (where I live) has 30 Pounds but would a 30 pound bow, the Bear Firebird or SAS Robinhood be enough to get a deer if you had an anything tag or an antlerless tag and a Mule came up, nope I do not think so considering but a 38--40 pound non compound/lever bow would be enough for the area if you take into account the more open field style of hunting and even with trying to use an old all fiberglass bow/slower PVC bow with actual string of Dacron B-55 this should work better.


South Dakota: From: GFP Eases Archery Equipment Restrictions

Archery hunters must use a bow with a minimum of 40 pounds of draw weight when hunting elk and 30 pounds when hunting all other big game animals.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

The thread is 12 years old - Im guessing he isnt still waiting for an answer.


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## smithca1988 (29 d ago)

Dartwick said:


> The thread is 12 years old - Im guessing he isnt still waiting for an answer.


I know that, I am helping others who keep asking the same question over and over again my friend.


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## smithca1988 (29 d ago)

1canvas said:


> And the animal had 25 arrows in it.


Nope, they had right amount if you place shot right. It was only the Buffalo, Brown Bear or Moose that had this many in it as 35 pounds is not enough for that but is for right placement of Deer, the smaller Elk that white Man killed out, the Birds and for some smaller regular Elk, most Bear if like Black not Brown and Moutain Lion/Puma as well as other animals they ate.

It is dumb Compound or old stogy traditional archers pre 1990's who think that using 35 pounds is not enough weight for the deer, true if using the wrong type of arrows, like not enough mass period in the arrow for any bow at 35 pounds and either too high of FOC with 90% of that balance all in the blade. I have had a thought of people doing the extremes for hunting and that almost never works unless you do it right from the start with the arrows being either heavy enough hunting types like aluminum and hunting carbon fiber or light carbon fiber with rope/paracord inside.


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## OkieTrad (Sep 4, 2021)

Get in close in tight cover, make sure the bow is quiet, should be good for 15 yards. More fun that way anyways


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## Ncangler06 (Apr 6, 2020)

Shot placement. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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