# Back tension, PRELOAD



## Padgett

Well Well Well, this is something that has been a long time coming for me but in the last 6 months has been a wonderful addition to my shooting that I believe has boosted my shooting to a slightly higher level than before. It all started about a year and a half ago at my buddy Ricks house shooting his 3d range, he stopped me after a shot and said "Did you know that you are creeping forward every shot". Hell now I didn't know that I was creeping forward every shot and for the next month or so it really bothered me because I could feel it wanting to happen all the stinking time and I battled mentally to keep from doing it. My bow was creep tuned really good so the creeping forward wasn't causing the arrow to hit funny on the target but deep down inside I knew that this was something I needed to address sooner or later. 

So lets skip forward a few month into the indoor season this early winter and one day for some reason I checked my bow and my draw length was almost a half inch long and I didn't even know it so i twisted up my string and reset the draw length and on my bow I have a option of moving the draw stops from 75% to 65% let off so I went ahead and thought you know i have shot this bow for over 4 years now I guess it wouldn't hurt to try them in the 65% setting. All this does is shortens the valley to basically no valley right on the edge of ripping your arm right out of your shoulder if you creep at all and to do so it shortens the draw length by about a 1/8 inch.

Well I had twisted my string back to my normal draw length before moving the draw stops to the 65% setting so moving them basically shortened the draw length just enough that I felt something that I had never felt before. PRELOAD.

What I have learned since then is that I was a guy that was coming to anchor and sitting in the valley and just touching the wall and I was doing so so lightly that if I left the wall during the shot execution I didn't even feel it happening. So especially if I was shooting my hinge with any form of yielding where you allow the hand to stretch I was totally creeping forward and had no idea that it was happening. Secondly if I was shooting with some form of pulling into the wall I was so light against the wall that when I began that effort that some times i would do quite a bit of effort and not even be to the wall before the shot fired so I must have been just sitting in the valley not really against the wall at all.

So, by accident I have lucked out and set my draw length and then I moved my draw pegs to the 65% let off setting and this has given me a draw length setting that seems to be to short. Well, it wasn't to short. Actually it was the first time ever that my draw length was spot on perfect. With this draw length I come to anchor and am touching the wall and my body still has a little left in the tank so as I settle in on the spot and my pin is moving the last few inches towards the spot I add a little back tension to the wall and my body ever so slightly pulls me into the wall. This is so so so so so important to realize that I am no longer just sitting in the valley and touching the wall, I am now inside the wall.

Now I have no idea how much inside the wall I am but mentally I like to think that it is about a 1/8 inch inside the wall but again that is totally a fictional number that I am making up. I guess a guy could put a mark on his arrow in a draw board when the cables are barely touching the draw stops and then come to full draw and add his back tension preload and have someone see for real how much they are pulling into the wall but I have never done this to actually see the truth. 

I do not fire my hinge with back tension, i use a firing engine that creates rotation and that firing engine starts after the preload has already been applied to my system so the preload is basically that last little bit of lining up your rear arm with the arrow so that it is in a perfectly straight line so this is where setting your draw length perfectly is so important so that the wall happens just before your rear arm is perfectly straight in line with the arrow. 

I will say that this is a totally different sensation from just pulling straight back into the wall with your hand and release and I absolutely do not recommend that you do so, it is also not a violent or over powering sensation. Back tension preload is something that you feel and it is solid but it is not excessive and to me it is what top shooters are feeling when they have their bow draw length set perfectly, top shooters have this draw length written down and they know what it is for a reason and they may not be a coach that can give you the reasons why it is so important but they just know that that draw length is the one that produces really freaking good feel and shooting so they use it.

This is something that i have only written about a very few times so it is still in development and I am really interested in hearing from people that have perfected it to chime in so that in the future I can produce a article that I consider solid and add it to my website because right now I don't feel I am ready. All I know is that it is something that has really helped me achieve a even better execution and feel during my shooting and it is well worth my time to master it and gain the ability to give it to other shooters.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett, reading as I did, I presume you have a cable stop bow?


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## Padgett

Yes.


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## nate0404

No disrespect, but I really don't think 1/8" change in draw length allowed you to use and maintain back tension. The change to 65% may have required you to be a little stronger on the back end. For me preloading happens throughout my draw cycle and is not dependent on my final draw length.


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## Iowa shooter

nate0404 said:


> No disrespect, but I really don't think 1/8" change in draw length allowed you to use and maintain back tension. The change to 65% may have required you to be a little stronger on the back end. For me preloading happens throughout my draw cycle and is not dependent on my final draw length.


He said he changed it 1/2 inch.


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## nate0404

Iowa shooter said:


> He said he changed it 1/2 inch.


oh, my bad


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## ar1220

Great info as usual.I started shooting spirals this year and learned early on that creeping was not much of an option and the harder I pull into the wal l the settles my pin gets and better my shots are


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## rohpenguins

Are you crediting the draw length change, holding weight change or both for the improvement?


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## jmann28

As frequently as you post on here giving advice to people, certainly you would have noticed your string stretching enough to increase the DL by half an inch???? Wouldn't you have noticed how over rotated the cams were?


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## SonnyThomas

jmann28 said:


> As frequently as you post on here giving advice to people, certainly you would have noticed your string stretching enough to increase the DL by half an inch???? Wouldn't you have noticed how over rotated the cams were?


Can't answer for Padgett, but for me, depending on the bow, a well designed valley and a flexible wall can "fit" and not be right and be right. Yeah, clear as mud. Friend of mine was using a hinge and complaining of the wall being to soft. I watched him a few times. He would draw to the wall and I swear draw another good full inch. And really what he was doing was muscling his hinge to make it fire, like draw so much that wrist or hand movement fired the release. Tried to tell him and it was like talking to a brick wall. A few months went by and I let him try my Pearson with dual limb draw stops. He liked to pulled himself in half and couldn't make his hinge fire....And another friend tried my bow and it a good inch too long on draw length for him. I gave him my hinge and told him to just pull to the wall and hold there. He did and the hinge fired and not only that, but was slapping his arrows with every shot.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> Well Well Well, this is something that has been a long time coming for me but in the last 6 months has been a wonderful addition to my shooting that I believe has boosted my shooting to a slightly higher level than before. It all started about a year and a half ago at my buddy Ricks house shooting his 3d range, he stopped me after a shot and said "Did you know that you are creeping forward every shot". Hell now I didn't know that I was creeping forward every shot and for the next month or so it really bothered me because I could feel it wanting to happen all the stinking time and I battled mentally to keep from doing it. My bow was creep tuned really good so the creeping forward wasn't causing the arrow to hit funny on the target but deep down inside I knew that this was something I needed to address sooner or later.
> 
> So lets skip forward a few month into the indoor season this early winter and one day for some reason I checked my bow and my draw length was almost a half inch long and I didn't even know it so i twisted up my string and reset the draw length and on my bow I have a option of moving the draw stops from 75% to 65% let off so I went ahead and thought you know i have shot this bow for over 4 years now I guess it wouldn't hurt to try them in the 65% setting. All this does is shortens the valley to basically no valley right on the edge of ripping your arm right out of your shoulder if you creep at all and to do so it shortens the draw length by about a 1/8 inch.
> 
> Well I had twisted my string back to my normal draw length before moving the draw stops to the 65% setting so moving them basically shortened the draw length just enough that I felt something that I had never felt before. PRELOAD.
> 
> What I have learned since then is that I was a guy that was coming to anchor and sitting in the valley and just touching the wall and I was doing so so lightly that if I left the wall during the shot execution I didn't even feel it happening. So especially if I was shooting my hinge with any form of yielding where you allow the hand to stretch I was totally creeping forward and had no idea that it was happening. Secondly if I was shooting with some form of pulling into the wall I was so light against the wall that when I began that effort that some times i would do quite a bit of effort and not even be to the wall before the shot fired so I must have been just sitting in the valley not really against the wall at all.
> 
> So, by accident I have lucked out and set my draw length and then I moved my draw pegs to the 65% let off setting and this has given me a draw length setting that seems to be to short. Well, it wasn't to short. Actually it was the first time ever that my draw length was spot on perfect. With this draw length I come to anchor and am touching the wall and my body still has a little left in the tank so as I settle in on the spot and my pin is moving the last few inches towards the spot I add a little back tension to the wall and my body ever so slightly pulls me into the wall. This is so so so so so important to realize that I am no longer just sitting in the valley and touching the wall, I am now inside the wall.
> 
> Now I have no idea how much inside the wall I am but mentally I like to think that it is about a 1/8 inch inside the wall but again that is totally a fictional number that I am making up. I guess a guy could put a mark on his arrow in a draw board when the cables are barely touching the draw stops and then come to full draw and add his back tension preload and have someone see for real how much they are pulling into the wall but I have never done this to actually see the truth.
> 
> I do not fire my hinge with back tension, i use a firing engine that creates rotation and that firing engine starts after the preload has already been applied to my system so the preload is basically that last little bit of lining up your rear arm with the arrow so that it is in a perfectly straight line so this is where setting your draw length perfectly is so important so that the wall happens just before your rear arm is perfectly straight in line with the arrow.
> 
> I will say that this is a totally different sensation from just pulling straight back into the wall with your hand and release and I absolutely do not recommend that you do so, it is also not a violent or over powering sensation. Back tension preload is something that you feel and it is solid but it is not excessive and to me it is what top shooters are feeling when they have their bow draw length set perfectly, top shooters have this draw length written down and they know what it is for a reason and they may not be a coach that can give you the reasons why it is so important but they just know that that draw length is the one that produces really freaking good feel and shooting so they use it.
> 
> This is something that i have only written about a very few times so it is still in development and I am really interested in hearing from people that have perfected it to chime in so that in the future I can produce a article that I consider solid and add it to my website because right now I don't feel I am ready. All I know is that it is something that has really helped me achieve a even better execution and feel during my shooting and it is well worth my time to master it and gain the ability to give it to other shooters.


Seems to me that cbrunson covered this nicely a while back. 



cbrunson said:


> One of the problems I noticed when learning to relax the bow arm is that you naturally want to drift down at first making you tense up again, trying to raise it back up. That is a problem with relaxing too much on your release arm and not keeping enough pressure against your bow arm, or letting your shoulder collapse.
> 
> If you focus on keeping your shoulder down, start pulling with your release and then start with relaxing your hand. Then relax your arm muscles. If your elbow wants to bend, straighten it just until it stops trying to bend, but don't force it straight. You still need to relax it. Once you feel your whole bow arm relax, you will control the fine movement of the dot with only your pullling force from your release hand.
> 
> After you get this part working correctly, then we can talk about how the different release methods affect the float.


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## EPLC

Part 2:



cbrunson said:


> Ok I'll go through a fairly detailed description of how I started working on improving my hold. It all started after shooting a hunting bow only league we do right before hunting season. I was starting to get a good feel for the shorter speed bow after not shooting it since the previous hunting season. Things were starting to feel good. I pulled up on a 43 yard 3D target and the pin just froze right in the center of the X ring. We count them as 11s. I made a conscious effort to make my release as smooth as possible to not move the pin, and drilled it. That shot felt good. We shoot two arrows at each target, so I drew the next arrow and it did the same thing. It sat there appearing motionless with the pin covering the nock of my first arrow. I focused again on a smooth release while watching the pin not move. At 43 yards with a 6” brace 35” ATA hunting bow I smashed the nock of my first arrow and I knew instantly that in wasn't by trusting some movement and an act of random chance. I watched the pin through the shot process and it didn't move. I was also using a hinge release.
> 
> I was holding very well that day and repeated that good hold several more times. At ranges from 20-35 yards I tore off vanes and busted two more nocks. I had to finish the last two targets with one arrow missing a vane because I only brought six arrows with me. This got me thinking afterwards. How could a common speed bow without the long stabilizers and scope be held that steady for that many shots. There were some bad ones, but I couldn't stop thinking about the good ones. That was the last shoot before hunting season so I was left with those thoughts. I didn't think about it when I shot my deer either.
> 
> Indoor season starts right after the close of general archery season here so it was still fresh in my mind when I pulled the pro comp out and started setting it up for spots again. I made several adjustments trying to figure out where it felt the best, and got it shooting pretty good. I was fairly consistent at 47-53 Xs, but my hold was nothing like I remembered from the day with my hunting bow. It was easy to justify considering the fact that the sight picture is a lot different with a magnified lens than without. I kept telling myself that it was moving the same, I just couldn't see it without the lens. But then I couldn't stop thinking about how solid it was for two consecutive shots at 43 yards and the second shot smashing the first arrow. I just felt like there had to be a way to repeat that hold. That is when I decided to study the dot movement without shooting. I pulled out my safety hinge and started drawing the bow (arrow loaded of course), an trying to hold it in the center as long as I could. I learned more doing this than any other thing I've experimented with in archery.
> 
> For the purpose of broadening the subject, I will explain the steps in instructional format to include multiple issues that I know some other people have experienced. This is of course all my opinion since I don't claim to be a professional or a coach, or a book writer. Take it for what you will. If you shoot as well or better than me using another concept or set of ideas, and disagree with my statements, I will not argue whether one way is better than the other. I do believe there are many successful approaches to this subject, and not one exclusive preferred method, so let's try to keep the arguments to a minimum, thanks. This assumes that you do not have any target panic issues. In fact you may find that you actually do have some minor issues. This will also help you with those.
> 
> First step.
> 
> Take out your favorite backup release and rotate the moon around so it can't fire. If you only have one release do it anyway, because you're likely going to change it anyway, even if you've spent countless hours perfecting your release at the blind bale. You'll see why in a moment. If you use a trigger, plan on parking your thumb behind it and not being temped to push the button. Then hang a clean target face at 20 yards. (That's where we shoot, not 8 or 10) Now you're going to go through all of the motions like you normally would if you were warming up to shoot a practice game. Draw the bow and hold it like you normally would. Pay close attention to what the dot is doing when you try to hold it in the center of the spot. Think about when you would normally fire it. Then let down and count to 15 slowly. Draw again and do the same thing. Consciously watch your dot move and set it up like you are going to execute the shot. Pay close attention to where it was when you know it would have gone off. Let down and count to 15. Repeat this for five or six ends of three arrows each. Take a mental note of any changes in movement as your muscles warm up, or if you find yourself thinking ahead and trying to skip steps. This is very important. Don't skip this step.
> 
> Now, being honest with yourself, because you are the only person this matters to, ask yourself these simple questions:
> 
> 1.	How was the dot moving?
> 2.	Was is fast and jerky?
> 3.	Was it slow but moving around a lot?
> 4.	Was it mostly vertical, or mostly horizontal, or both?
> 5.	Was it circular, or figure eight?
> 6.	How long did you try to hold it there? 3 seconds? 10seconds?
> 7.	Did it improve while you held it there, an and what point?
> 8.	If it improved, how long did it hold at its best “float”?
> 9.	At what point of the hold did you decide you would execute the shot?
> 
> Those are pretty basic and that's good. You want to know where you're coming from before you try to go somewhere new. Now it's time to study changes to your basic holding techniques that you have ingrained into your muscle memory. I'm not talking about basic form as you should have that down by now. I'm talking about fine adjustments to muscle tension and maybe a little body position. This is where it gets a little conflicting with everything you hear and read daily about equipment setup and fine tuning your bow to make you shoot better. Those things are important, but if you're not holding the bow correctly in the first place, you won't see the benefits of a twist or two on the strings. Same with loop length. This can be a sensitive argument for some individuals here which is okay, we are all at different levels for the most part. We take for granted some of the finer details of things we learned a log time ago and now consider remedial.
> 
> Now set up the shot again by going to your normal stance, drawing the bow, and holding as close to the center as you can. Start your release execution. The release is set so it can't fire, so nothing will happen other than you watching how your normally executed release affects the movement of the dot. (Thumb triggers just pull with the same tension you believe you normally would). What happened?
> 
> 1.	Did it slow down and settle in during the simulated shot process?
> 2.	Did it get worse?
> 3.	Did it have a moment where the tension was good, then got worse?
> 4.	Did it change at all? (More commonly not, with a static release arm)
> 
> Do this repeatedly for six more ends of three arrows each. By now the other guys at the range are wondering what the heck you're doing just drawing and letting down. A few have probably already asked.
> 
> What did you see as an overall pattern? Did your hold improve at certain points? You may not know exactly why some were better than others yet, but you are looking now, so the first step is covered.
> 
> Second step.
> 
> Little changes. It is likely that up to this point you have traded a half dozen or more releases, moved your bars around, added and removed weights, changed draw length and weight, many, many times trying to find the perfect recipe for shooting Xs. I can say with absolute certainty that my opinion is very simple regarding this. Set it up to be comfortable. That's it. It just needs to feel good. There is no magic combination or formula to get the bow fit perfect for you. At least not if you follow this process of learning how to hold the bow.
> 
> The first part of this step is to get the bow arm relaxed. If you shoot with a bent elbow and have learned to push/pull as you fire the release, or are committed to a high wrist grip, you might as well stop reading this post. It won't help you, unless you decide to abandon your current method. Again, not arguing that method. I've seen that it works well for some very good shooters, it's just not how I do it, and not addressed in this post. Now when you get set up and ready to go again, be consciously aware of what your dot is doing again. It's important to be fresh and rested for the first few attempts at this. You want to be strong enough to hold it longer than normal.
> 
> Draw the bow and hold it in the center like you've been doing. Make sure you have you're good low grip with no induced torque and straighten your arm. Don't worry about drawing it that way, you have no investment in time for the moment. Now starting with your hand, completely relax it. Let the bow just sit there. Don't look at the bubble yet, just watch the dot and let your hand relax. Next let your arm muscles relax. If your elbow tries to bend, straighten it until it stops but don't force it straight. If it still tries to bend, you are not pulling hard enough with your release hand. Make sure your shoulder is down and pull as hard as necessary to get the arm to stay locked straight with absolutely no tension in the bow arm muscles. If you have a normal arm, it works. It will lock straight and you can relax your bow arm completely. What happened to the movement of the dot? Maybe nothing yet because it took so long to get it to relax this time and your shoulder started burning so you let down. That's okay. Rest for a good 20 seconds or more and try it again. This time it happens faster and you can watch the dot a little closer. If you're like me, your dot just went from floating around inside the nine ring, to almost dead still wherever it stopped when I became completely relaxed with my bow arm. This is looking through a 4X lens. The light just clicked on. It can be done, but for how long? And more importantly, it's not in the center, how do I move it and keep the same hold? This is where it gets more personal so I will discuss the effects of different release methods that I know and how they affect it. The general concept should be broad enough to apply to others I think.
> 
> Keep practicing holding and relaxing the bow arm for a few more ends and then start introducing your shot execution with the release still unable to fire. Don't worry about whether it's perfectly in the middle when you start to execute, just make sure it is sitting calm and still the way you just got it to sit with a totally relaxed bow arm. You may still see some movement, but it should be very minimal. If not, something is very off with your basic form or bow set up. Remember this is assuming that you are already at the 40-50x level in your shooting. Those basic fundamentals should be covered.
> 
> Study the changes in your dot movement with your release execution while maintaining a perfectly relaxed bow arm now. If you're like me, you will see it move a lot at first. When it does, your bow arm and hand will want to tense up to control the movement. That is a natural reaction that you have to mentally conquer to move forward from this point. You have to focus on keeping the arm relaxed through the execution process. It can be very difficult. Keeping the release unable to fire will at least eliminate the shot anticipation from the equation while you are training your mind to see what you want for a sight picture, and learning the amount of pull required to keep your bow arm relaxed. You need to work on this for a while. Not just a few minutes and then go fling some arrows. You are trying to retrain your body and mind. It doesn't happen in 15 minutes. That doesn't mean you can't introduce the shot into the process, but depending on your issues with shot anticipation, you may struggle to stay focused on what you are trying to achieve. I know I did. The next step is learning to control the movement of the dot during the release execution. I will have to add the next step later because it's Saturday and I'm going outside to play.


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## SonnyThomas

Long posts or articles and I get...bored or wonder why so many words. Maybe I got taught different. Last week? someone was talking about however he wanted his bow arm and someone chimed in with twisting the bow arm...Completely lost me. I think I agree with Padgett and cbrunson of the bow arm and the release arm doing the controlling.
Hand to the riser like it should be I just stick out my bow arm and it's there. I don't reposition my bow hand, I don't twisting my bow arm, and I don't muscle anything. I don't have to relax my bow arm, it's just there, "strong." And not to take me wrong or out in left field, I've tried "pushing" and maybe good for a bit, but I can't repeat it and keep aligned so everything is "peaceful" at the target. And then, working at the shop, I've shot bows with draw lengths really short, like 23" of draw, and shot them great with a "chicken bow arm." Yeah, bow arm bent big time. This was easier to replicate. Short, I went with anchor first and adjusted my bow arm. What I adjusted with my bow arm stayed pretty good and mainly because I don't force it. 

Going back in time, Doug Springer, of Stanislawski, I built my hinge training tool according to Doug (me and him talking on the phone). I tied knots, lengthened and shortened I don't know how many times until the trainer "fit" me. My bow arm was out there and strong, my shoulders aligned and my anchor perfect. Just like Doug told me; "When you've got it right, do it right you'll shoot the trainer across the room." I got tired of going over and picking it up. The only thing Doug neglected to inform of was bows with positive limb stops. They are different. Draw length is more critical. Too short and I'm bunched up. My MX2 was too short, but I shot it fairly well. I finally got it lengthened with new mods and though a bit too long it feels better. My MarXman is perfect. I draw and all falls into place.
I don't know who has my Springer instructed hinge training aid. Back a while I built one out of large rubber bands and had forgot it. Piddling around I've got it "set" to "fit" me. I can adjust the draw length and adjust the holding weight. Not able to shoot a bow at this time my rubber band training aid gets used. 

I don't use a hinge but for practice. I use thumb releases. I don't know if I preload and it's just a word. I'm at full draw, back doing the holding and yet I'm fully relaxed. Just letting my thumb rest on the thumb barrel the consistent back tension takes care of firing. If I force the pin moves.


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## Mahly

A couple of observations.
Being from the PBT originally, I've never had the issue of creeping forward, but I understand the concept Padgett is trying to convey. While not in conflict with, I find it a bit of a different subject than cbrunson's excellent post. Put the 2 together and I think they compliment each other.
I also think it's very important to give the new technique time to prove itself. I bet Padgett could have posted this 3 months ago... waiting till it's proven is the best way to KNOW it's working.
I think with more people using some form of manipulation to fire the hinge (vs PBT), back tension and/or preload is becoming something easily overlooked.


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## EPLC

T


Mahly said:


> A couple of observations.
> Being from the PBT originally, I've never had the issue of creeping forward, but I understand the concept Padgett is trying to convey. While not in conflict with, I find it a bit of a different subject than cbrunson's excellent post. Put the 2 together and I think they compliment each other.
> I also think it's very important to give the new technique time to prove itself. I bet Padgett could have posted this 3 months ago... waiting till it's proven is the best way to KNOW it's working.
> I think with more people using some form of manipulation to fire the hinge (vs PBT), back tension and/or preload is becoming something easily overlooked.


While one may be addressing creeping and the other addressing holding, the solution is the same... preload.


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## cbrunson

It's a matter of finding the correct amount of preload that can be maintained through the shot process. I use the concept for both holding characteristics, and release activation, but with a little more focus on the hold. 

My best preload tension is well past the let-off weight. I hold tighter not the stops. Most people that use "PBT" are in that same boat. If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between 28-35 lbs is where I get the best hold.


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## Padgett

I read through cbrunsons long one and I remember the first time I read it and it is a great look into what a solid shooter is doing to look deep into his shooting and find all the little things that are influencing your shot and tweak them to perfection. 

This thread is meant to look into the affect of finding your perfect draw length on almost all current bows that have very firm to rock solid walls, to me i have one of those bows because I am shooting bowtech and all of them have draw stops and those draw stops hit the cables to make my wall a very firm one that has some give but it loads up nicely and becomes very solid. I heard about working on my draw length for years and it is one of the things that I just ignored and dismissed as not really that important. To me my journey as a hinge shooter would have been smoother if I had a perfect draw length setting right from the start because it compliments everything in your shot and it adds a consistent feel to things and tension to the shot that helps to fire the hinge. 

I try and practice what I preach and in December I had been shooting indoor on a daily basis for a couple months when I rattled off my best shooting of my life and I shot a 30029x vegas and a 300 28x vegas and simply wasn't missing hardly at all when I noticed that my draw length was a half inch longer than it should be. My strings had stretched. Well one of the things that i preach all the time is that ACCURACY HOLDS US BACK, just because you have some success doesn't and shouldn't give you the go ahead to continue doing something that you know is wrong. The fact is I had spent a couple months shooting thousands of shots and was dealing with that overly stretched out feel in my body. The moment that I changed my draw length back by twisting my strings I felt way better and my shooting actually improved but again keep in mind that I had never actually worked on my draw length specifically and had only set my bows in the 29 inch mod setting and called it good to go. This is what prompted me to actually spend some quality time simply focusing on my draw length and in doing so I stumbled onto back tension preload.

For me I totally see now why in the past that I struggled to produce really good shooting with pure back tension, I was coming to anchor and settling in on the spot and then I started my back tension that was meant to fire the hinge and as that effort progressed sooner or later it would run into the wall and as it hit the wall my pin would pull off the spot. On the shots where the hinge fired before I hit the wall the shot hit perfect and felt great but the percentage of shots where my pin got pulled off the spot was just to high to ever put to much faith into that method.

Secondly, I have also used back tension all along but I was applying it to my skeleton frame and using it to bottom out my skeleton at full draw because my draw length was just a little to long and when I applied my back tension at anchor when I was sitting in the valley just touching the wall the only thing I had to give that back tension to was my body and the fact that it was bottomed out. It is no different than a body builder standing there flexing his muscles to strike a pose for the audience, his muscles are totally contracted but he isn't lifting any weight. 

When you spend the time and twist your bowstring and actually find that perfect draw length you will for the first time if you have never spent the time to this aspect of your shooting have a bow that is able to be that object that can accept your back tension in a positive way that actually helps your shooting. The feel is something that once you feel it you will automatically know that you are there and that it is a really good thing. In fact it has stopped me from shooting different hinges, right now the only hinge that I am shooting is my scott backspin because my tru ball honey badger and ht hinges have a shorter distance to the hook and it makes me to short, my old trusty scott longhorn has a longer distance to the hook and it causes me to be a little to stretched out. The backspin gives me a that perfect amount of preload in the shot, the difference between the releases is very subtle and for a long time it didn't matter to me which one I shot because I was just sitting in the valley just touching the wall and there was enough room in there to allow for the differences in the hinges. But now that I have a optimal setting I can feel a huge difference when I do shoot with a different hinge.


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## cbrunson

Mahly said:


> I think with more people using some form of manipulation to fire the hinge (vs PBT), back tension and/or preload is becoming something easily overlooked.



Nothing new really. The whole purpose for creep tuning is to compensate for inconsistency on that front. We have a hard time relaxing one arm and maintaining tension with the other. Softening up on the stops is very common and one reason why the "pull the bow apart"' method has been pushed so hard when coaching. Learning to keep extra pressure is better than creeping forward typically. 

The difference here is knowing what performs best for you and controlling it. That comes with experience and results. While I may prefer to keep higher preload tension, I know many very good shooters that keep it lightly on the stops and even into the valley, with a good creep tune.


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## Garceau

speaking of pre-load - 

I switched bow companies and stopped shooting a bow I had shot for 3-4 straight years. I have struggled with consistency on my release side. I changed to a different release that aligns my hand a little differently due to the considerably different string angle.

Now to ensure alignment I have added a clicker, but I activate the clicker by getting my back elbow in position, and aligned - then work the release as normal. I generally don't like the clicks, but this is at least an aid until I feel comfortable and repetitive.


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## SonnyThomas

Rabbling along...

Read Griv's take on Creep tuning. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453865

Creep in other matters; Draw length too long or too much holding weight or both....

Since forever all I heard of was 65%, 65%, 65%... Cams today aren't what they were 15 years ago, 10 years, 5 years ago and still that "magical" 65% hangs on. Really, 65% needs rethinking. It needs be enough holding weight, not 65%....

If the bow arm isn't "strong," fix it. The bow arm should be "strong" by it's self. If "bending," it's shooter error. Terry Wunderle; "90% of all bad shots are caused by a sloppy bow arm."


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## Padgett

The two big responses that I have done in this thread have been more explaining what back tension preload is and how I got there so now I am going to touch base on a few of the things that I feel that it has helped with in my personal shooting.

1. PRECISION: I am a big believer in a very good hinge speed and one thing I have always struggled with is my hinge seeming to change from day to day week to week and since I started using back tension pre load I am finding that my hinge seems to be staying almost exactly the same every day. The reason I think I was having trouble with my hinge speed changing is that by sitting in the valley and barely touching the wall my draw length was changing ever so slightly depending on where I was sitting in the valley and your hinge is very very much affected by your alignment from shot to shot. So what I think has happened is that now by coming to full draw and applying my preload I am being much more precise and aligning my body to the bow exactly the same every shot. 

2. SUBTLE: Since I started using preload in my shot my effort to fire my hinge has became very subtle to the point where I know that I am using a specific method to fire the hinge but I can't feel it and it is very minimal. This is totally allowing my pin to float and be totally not affected by my firing of the hinge which to me has been my goal for over two years to get to this point and preload is giving it to me without me having to work on it so much. 

3. SPRING LOADED HINGE: When I shot in the valley just touching the wall my hinge for the most part felt like it had some emergency brake on at all times and my firing effort had to overcome that brake. The moment I started using preload my hinge got a new feeling that I had never felt before, it feels like it is spring loaded in my hand and that the spring is trying to make the hinge fire and from the time I let off the thumb peg the hinge is trying to fire itself. 

4. AIMING: There are certain things that I have worked on to eliminate from my shooting for a long time such as dropping out the bottom of the 12 ring or x, many things helped and I overcame it but the feeling that my bow could drop out at any moment remained and I always hated that sensation. From the moment that I started shooting with preload that sensation vanished and it has taken me a few months to finally see why but now I can put a finger on the reason. When you are just sitting in the valley you are forcing your front end to do a very high percentage of the work to hold up your bow and that feeling or sensation is what I was feeling, now that I am using back tension preload this pressure into the wall is assisting the front end of my shot and the percentage of weight that the front end is responsible for is way less and much more manageable to the point where the sensation of the bow almost dropping out the bottom is gone. My overall float pattern is better also and my analogy is if you put some pancake syrup into your sight bubble the bubble moves slower than if there is water in the bubble. My float pattern did slow down like that when I started using preload.


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## Rick!

Interesting...

A while ago, adjusting draw length precisely for shot execution was looked upon as a bad thing on this forum. Now it is presented as a good thing. 
One likes a comfortable draw length and loads the back end heavily. I totally get this style of hold and execution now. 
One finds the perfect draw length to aid in aiming and shot execution. I am in this camp. I fuss over my DL all the time to get my full draw feeling perfect for me.
And then some can shoot well without much holding weight. 
Personally, my PCE is at 20-21lbs holding weight and goes up a little if I use a high energy shot execution. I like to avoid high energy shots for the most part so I look to balance front and back with a bias to high holding weight with the addition of BT that steadies my hold and takes less added BT to break the shot. I don't have creep issues on my Spirals or with the lack of valley, in fact, I'm pretty comfortable with short valleys. I'm probably one of the few that have added holding weight and reduced the valley on a DNA for a steadier hold. The bottom line for me is that I Like high holding weight, a firm but relaxed front with a BT preload and shot execution. If I miss on any of the last two, I usually don't hit my spot. So, my practice/training is to not let "relax" reduce BT in any way. 

Foam critter league tonite, gotta go. Did I mention that I don't really like shooting foam?


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## Padgett

As a competitive archer I throw myself into a variety of competitions and most of the time I am a little nervous for a few shots to begin a scoring round or 3d course but once a year for the last couple years I have had a disaster day where my nerves came out of the bleacher seats and with no warning I was totally screwed. Every time this has happened has been in the sitting in the valley type of shooting where I had very little or no tension on the wall and I was just touching the wall. Since I made this change I have had a couple of shoots where the nerves hit and I felt the preload help, basically as I came to anchor and felt my heart beating way to hard and the anxiety surging through my body I knew this could be a disaster type day and as I settled in and my pin started over to the 12 ring I applied the preload and that preload that I gave to my shot smoothed out the jitters in my front arm and pin and I was able to execute a normal shot even though my heart was racing.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett, yes. The bow arm can only do so much. That what you call preload stabilizes the bow arm... Something like those telling of Terry Wunderle, pulling the bow apart. It isn't, not really. He's wanting a stable launch platform.


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## Padgett

That is exactly why I like doing this kind of thread because I have read things on the Pulling The Bow Apart and for me the reading I did really didn't lead me anywhere. I really don't think I am putting anything out there that is revolutionary or new it is just written in the Padgett article presentation and for some people it helps see things and for some people it doesn't. 

I did find it really hard to keep this subject short and to the point without typing to much so in the future I will try and find a way to shorten it and tweak it to the point where it opens the door for a up and coming shooter to what is possible with their setup that can make a difference.


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## LMacD

I love what you're saying about hinge speed. I wish I'd seen that earlier because it took me too long to realize that I needed to spend some real time on that. In doing so, I'm getting lots of usage out of my Stan's trainer lock lately. It's a godsend. Thanks for all the helpful details!


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## sharkred7

Excellent post and timing! I will share the experience I am having right now.

I have 2 identical (almost!) bows. Podium X 37's one 50# peak, the other 60# peak

I had them both set up the same 51# 26 1/4, same peep height, etc.

Well I wanted to have one for 3D so I decided to crank up the poundage on the 60#er. Well in doing that I lost a heavy 1/8" of draw length.

Fast forward to sighting it in, the 3D bow held WAY better! I was using the exact same sighting aperture as my other bow so it was not perceived movement. Now I have to determine why. Is it the draw length, holding wt or both. So now I am in he process of matching my field bow to my 3D bow to see if it is draw length. I am also working on my loop to get the best hold. It seems for me to be easier to hold the shorter draw length and use a SLIGHTLY longer loop. I believe this gets my release arm in the proper position.

I have gone to the lighter draw weight because I would also get caught creeping when I would get nervous. Example, at state this year I shot a 58X on day one and was in second place. twice I caught myself creeping enough to roll over the stops. Got lucky and made a clean "let down". Day 2 I crept twice and both went of and I BARELY got 2 4's out of them.

Well I thought it was just too much holding weight, now it may have just been too much draw length too get that good preload.

So far with by field bow I have yet to get the same feel as my 3D bow. Will continue experimenting tomorrow.

John


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## Padgett

I am basically a one bow guy for the last few years but this season I did have a second bow and it was set on 62lbs and the indoor bow was set on 52lbs and I just didn't like going back and forth between them as much as I thought i would. Yeah I had them set on a draw board the same draw length and yeah they basically fit me the same but the change in the draw weight and the difference in the holding weight just wasn't something I felt good about. In fact once 3d season was approaching I just put down the indoor bow and shot my 3d bow indoor and outside and allowed my body to accept it and I just went on with my shooting.

So for me if I had two bows that I had to compete with at the same time I would have them set at the same poundage and same draw length and preferably the same bow except for the arrow choice for that setup that it will be used for.

My two bows were funny because my 52 pound bow actually had a higher holding weight than the 62lb bow because I had the 52lb one set in a 65% let off setting, so it wasn't that one of them sucked or one was better it was that they just felt so different drawing them and coming to anchor that just didn't feel similar enough where I could just pick up one and shoot. I had to spend way to much time thinking about it instead of just drawing and execution.


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## LadyBowhunter12

EPLC said:


> Part 2:


Wow this is what i was looking for. Cant wait to try it out!


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## yeroc

taggd


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## tonygoz

tag


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## dmacey

Interesting thread, thanks for resurrecting it. This was one of my difficulties with the hinge style release, it was a little too permissive for me about creeping on the shot. I learned back tension shooting on recurve where it's basically impossible to shoot an arrow at all if you're creeping on the back end even a little bit, but on the compound I found that I could get away with it with a hinge style release a bit too easily. Especially after a few ends where I started getting tired, it would let me lose contact with my back tension but I could still heave off a shot by just rotating it with my fingers. Even halfway into the valley I could manage it without noticing I was doing it.

I picked up an Evolution on a whim a while back while I was struggling with the hinge and gave it a try. Once I had the poundage somewhere in the right region I think I was pulling through the shot with my recurve method in about 5 ends. No more creeping or jerking and I haven't put the Evo down since. 

But that could just be habit from recurve using back-tension in my shot on compound also. I've read of many compound shooters who don't necessarily use back tension and the hinge surely is very highly successful for practically all the elite-level shooters out there....

DM


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## Padgett

I am the one that has brought BACK TENSION PRELOAD as a defined phrase, it is something that was simply not talked about. It was referred to in a variety of ways but not something that anyone was really offering as a method that had been laid out and defined or listed out the difference between it and the back tension firing of a release method. 

It is a interesting subject because it isn't on the radar of the archery world, back tension preload has hidden in the setup of your bow with proper draw length and your execution. I think that guys that happened onto perfect draw length by accident or by a coach have been able to use back tension preload even though they weren't instructed in what it was or how to use it. It was just something there because their setup was perfect, we all know that a overly long draw length is something that plagues new shooters and even advanced shooters causing them to be a valley sitter. Before I learned what preload could be shortening my draw length felt horrible because I then sit in the valley with a shorter draw length than I had before and I would then go right back to my longer setting. 

The perfect example is the widely accepted spiral cams by hoyt, without the ability to explain back tension preload a hoyt spiral cam shooter can explain to you why you must be solid on the wall when shooting with spirals, if you don't things go down the toilet in a hurry. I also notice that spiral cam guys seem to be very very diligent about perfect draw length compared to other shooters with bows that have a more happy valley. Why? Because they come to anchor and by adding some preload into the wall it keeps them nice and solid on the wall and without creep that would cause the cams to jerk their poor shoulder out of socket.


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## Mahly

I just modified my Moxie to emulate that. The Moxie come only with the options for 70% or 80% let off. By leaving the stops set for 80% let off at my DL, but changing the module for a longer DL, I can have my proper draw length and have a 60-65% let off. The valley is obviously shorter...you do NOT want to creep with this bow! Now I have much more stability and consistency at full draw than I did holding only 10# LOL!


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## Padgett

One of the first things I remember from archery talk was me hearing "You need to be a back tension shooter", that comment was referred to over and over and I actually bought into trying to become one. The problem that I ran into instantly was that so much of the information that I needed was the type that was just implied or assumed, I knew nothing and needed someone to sort things out specifically into sub groups and then connect them together for a end result. Problem is that I just kept hearing you need to shoot with back tension. 

I do realize that all of the subjects that we discuss aren't new and that guys have been using them successfully for decades, I am just choosing to break them down into specific areas and give them a phrase that is easily used. Firing enignes and Back tension preload are two of them, I have even talked to two companies and asked them to stop calling hinges "back tensions releases" on their websites. Just call them hinges. It took me a while but if you notice now we have made a huge jump in getting away from back tension being a universal term, it is now just a firing engine option. 

The next step is for me to get Back Tension Preload as a accepted phrase that is associated with correct draw length as its main objective but still teach the subtle benefits it has with your execution of a hinge or thumb trigger and also reduced float with your aiming.


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## stromdidilly

Recently started actively getting coached. This is one of the very first thing he changed about my routine. Learning to draw the bow, and then being explicit about setting the tension in my back once I'm at full draw. Two things this has done 1) worked muscles I have never worked in my 5 years of shooting 2) I've shot my first ever 30Xs at 10 and 15 yards working my way back. This is with the exact same bow, draw length, arrows and release that I shot considerably lower scores with just one year prior. It's amazing how big of an impact this concept can have on your shot!


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## Padgett

Yep, and what irritates me is that is is such a simple thing to do. It isn't like there is a three month strict training schedule to follow, basically a coach tells you what to do and you are up and running with something that improves your shooting instantly. 

This is what is so frustrating about archery to me is that so many of these things are so simple but not obvious, that prolong misery.

1. Setting up a hinge

2. Proper draw length with back tension preload

3. Soft hand with a j-hook grip on the release

Those three only took me 30 seconds to get them typed out but each one of them were years to learn the lesson.


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## grantmac

Mahly said:


> I just modified my Moxie to emulate that. The Moxie come only with the options for 70% or 80% let off. By leaving the stops set for 80% let off at my DL, but changing the module for a longer DL, I can have my proper draw length and have a 60-65% let off. The valley is obviously shorter...you do NOT want to creep with this bow! Now I have much more stability and consistency at full draw than I did holding only 10# LOL!


I absolutely cannot shoot a bow which sits easily in the valley, I love the feel of spirals. You can get very close to that feel with binaries that have limb stops or other cams where the stop and mod adjust separately.

Grant


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## chevy_freak

Good read. I think I need to find a coach. I fire my hinges by simply pulling firm into the wall and relaxing my hand to let them fire. It's been working to shoot 290's, but I would like to get to that 30x point.


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