# Barebow archers just need to get "serious." ;)



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I once again found myself face to face with a well-respected and well-known coach today that when asked about his archers shooting barebow replied "I usually encourage them to "get serious" (his words) and put sights and a stabilizer on as soon as they can." 

Get serious? Seriously?

I was so angered by this comment that I had to just walk away. What an incredibly stupid point of view. Especially for a coach.

On the drive home, I thought about this quite a lot. This is the mindset we face and we fight every day. One of the reasons we suffer from low participation is because of coaches like this who tell enthusiastic young barebow archers that in order for them to "get serious" they need to put on a sight and clicker and compete in the Olympic division.

I spent a good 15 minutes trying to convince one young lady today that that coach was full of BS and that one could be perfectly "serious" in the barebow division. And in fact, many veteran archers view barebow as the most challenging, competitive form of target archery. She was not convinced, but mostly because she demonstrated a clear desire for quick on-target performance above a willingness to put in the time to work for her scores. 

As a coach of young archers, how are we serving them by redirecting them away from barebow? How? Are we serving the archers, or are we serving ourselves because we are hoping to produce the next JDT or Jr. USAT member? I think probably the latter. 

Those in positions of influence in WA and USArchery need to be paying attention here to the "trickle-down" effect their policies have on coaches and athletes. By not offering world-class and national championship events for barebow, they send the message that one cannot be considered a "serious" target archer unless they have sights and other accessories on their bow. 

What has this world come to that we view the easier path to the 10 ring as the more "serious" way? That is completely bass-ackwards thinking! Compare this to another hobby/sport - Fishing. Do people think that those who use oversized trolling rods and multiple artificial rigs more "serious" than a fly-fisherman that ties their own flies? Absolutely not. So why then do we in archery demote the most enthusiastic of all disciplines to the ranks of the un-"serious" ???

Believe me, the message was sent loud and clear today by not just this one coach, but the peer group of this young lady. I had had enough. It was frankly making me sick. And this from someone who has competed at the top of the sport with a recurve for pete's sake. 

Seriously.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The irony - to me - surrounding all of this was that while this conversation was going on, none other than Rick Stonebraker - arguably the greatest US recurve archer to never make the Olympic team - was signing his scorecard for a new Master's barebow US indoor record. A 538, shot with a WA barebow rig, by a master's division archer. Most of those coach's students will never shoot a 538 in their life with sights a clicker and stabilizers. 

Seriously indeed.

John


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> The irony - to me - surrounding all of this was that while this conversation was going on, none other than Rick Stonebraker - arguably the greatest US recurve archer to never make the Olympic team - was signing his scorecard for a new Master's barebow US indoor record. A 538, shot with a WA barebow rig, by a master's division archer. Most of those coach's students will never shoot a 538 in their life with sights a clicker and stabilizers.
> 
> Seriously indeed.
> 
> John


Absolutely right! Moreover we each had barebow archers who were forced to compete as JOADS in the "serious" archers division, olympic recurve, yet somehow figured out a way to be competitive (mine actually placed with a 513, oh and he has Aspergers).

I credit Skip Trafford for opening my eyes to barebow and all kids I have made a difference with teaching them barebow archery. It opened up a whole new demographic for me to help.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, I saw this comment in two ways. First, a coach who hopes to pad their resume with a top-ranked compound or recurve archer, and second, a coach who lacks the skills or patience to teach a young archer to be a truly skilled and competitive barebow archer. Thank God all coaches are not this way. 

I see it as our duty as coaches to encourage these young people to find their true passion, whether that be compound, recurve OR barebow, and then help them learn all they can about it. 

I always thought we were here to help the archers, not the other way around.


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

Interestingly, this seems to be the different from some of the disciplines in the shooting sports, especially the Olympic pistol and shotgun events.

The rules themselves enforce this attitude - Pistols, for example, must fit inside a small dimensional box, sights must be iron and open. The gun+ammunition variable is essentially already maxed-out performance-wise (if you clamp them down they'll put shot after shot through the same hole, or in the case of 50m pistol, at least in a 1/2" or so hole). That means that the only real variable is the athlete. Plenty of people at the highest levels are shooting 20- or 30-year-old guns. Those competitors (as well as those who look up to them) look down disdainfully at $1,000 telescopic sights. Olympic Rifle, on the other hand, is different - there's all sorts of equipment on the guns themselves as well as on the athletes' themselves. Pistol shooters show up to the line with what looks like an attaché case; rifle shooters look like they're going on a week-long safari.

I'd say that in this sense, Olympic Rifle events are like our Olympic Recurve (lots of technological assistance and an ever-increasing race toward greater precision), and I'd say that the Olympic Pistol events are like Barebow. What's good for shooting but unfortunate for archery is that shooting has Olympic events that are "minimalist" whereas archery doesn't. This is too bad, because there are different types of personalities that are drawn to the different disciplines within the sport.

Compare: 
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Yusuf+Dikec+Olympics+Day+1+Shooting+LUzFJjeItUkl.jpg
and 
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02287/SHOOTER2_2287651b.jpg


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I see it as our duty as coaches to encourage these young people to find their true passion, whether that be compound, recurve OR barebow, and then help them learn all they can about it.
> 
> I always thought we were here to help the archers, not the other way around.


Stupid me John. That's what I thought the job was for the past 21 years. Maybe one day I can become a "serious" coach.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

It truly is a "stigma" in sports that in order to be a football player it has to be NFL and only a QB...in stock car racing only NASCAR counts...and in archery kids only look up to Olympic archers that are truly successful.

In all sports today it seems that everyone gets a prize or ribbon and one really doesn't stand out from any of the others...even though a few have spent much more time practicing and honing their craft. I'm a type person that if I succeed because of hard work,patience,discipline then I want the accolades that come with it because of my hard work.



Dewayne Martin


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sad to say but most coaches I have seen or talked to at tournaments don't know how to teach Barebow. Maybe this is where we start. Teach the coaches!!!


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Sad to say but most coaches I have seen or talked to at tournaments don't know how to teach Barebow. Maybe this is where we start. Teach the coaches!!!


Coach, heal thy self. Know what you don't know, and fix it.


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

Congratulations to Rick! 

Now he has to go after the Texas State record.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

gitnbetr said:


> Congratulations to Rick!
> 
> Now he has to go after the Texas State record.


Yes, congratulations indeed. I took special satisfaction in seeing his achievement today, since he and I have been battling head-to-head for the past few years in the barebow division. He's almost always bested me, but I've come close. There was no coming close today, and I was very pleased for him. What's great is to see an archer with Rick's resume (and many aren't familiar with just how much success he's had in the sport because he competed at a time when Darrel and Rick were at their peak) still seek out achievements to accomplish, still get nervous and still be thrilled that he reached a goal. 

Folks, that's what it's all about. Regardless of what discipline one chooses.

John


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## Atascaderobow (Nov 4, 2014)

Outsider looking in on the barebow class so take that into consideration when you read my observations. Why wouldn't a coach say you need to get serious if you want to move up? What is there in barebow that lets the young archer aim toward the Olympics or world championships? Not fair to barebow, but until there is acceptance of one set of rules between organizations you will never have the opportunity to flaunt your skills and barebow appeal to media audiences. Read the recent topics on barebow and you will see what I mean about agreement on barebow rules. All the infighting between different barebow camps makes it hard to put on a unified front with the OC or World Championship organizers.

Sorry, but that's how it looks to me. When I google archery competition I find videos of the World Championships or Olympics. And those events consist of OR and target compounds. Not barebow or Bowhunter classes.

Get agreement on one set of barebow rules and then attack the competitions with a vengeance. Shoot in OR classes and start taking the podium and you will get all the help you need from OR folks. Anything to get you out of the OR class. 

Again, just my observations and opinions,

Pete


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Pete, 

I understand why you ask those questions, but the concept is flawed. Assuming every archer that walks into your range is dreaming of the Olympics or World Championships (and there are barebow archers at the world field championships by the way. Ben Rogers, Alan Eagleton and Mark Applegate - to name three, all have world championship medals, shooting barebow) would be a mistake for a coach to make. 

Even the phrase "move up" is offensive to an archer who spends as much time and effort honing his/her craft at arguably the most demanding, most difficult to master of all the three disciplines. 

To think that moving to compound or recurve is somehow "moving up" is to suggest that the only things in archery that matter are status and medals. So many of our recreational archers are not looking for either, but are searching for the pure JOY of shooting a bow - the way their heroes in the movies do. Without accessories.



> the opportunity to flaunt your skills and barebow appeal to media audiences.


 This comment further illustrates the flawed premise. When did notoriety equal "being serious?" 



> Shoot in OR classes and start taking the podium and you will get all the help you need from OR folks. Anything to get you out of the OR class.


I'm sorry but that suggestion cannot be serious. There are plenty of barebow archers that already beat the vast majority of recurve archers and they are still not taken "seriously." It is a stereotype that is promoted by those who value fame and fortune ahead of achievement and dedication.

John


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Yes, congratulations indeed. I took special satisfaction in seeing his achievement today, since he and I have been battling head-to-head for the past few years in the barebow division. He's almost always bested me, but I've come close. There was no coming close today, and I was very pleased for him. What's great is to see an archer with Rick's resume (and many aren't familiar with just how much success he's had in the sport because he competed at a time when Darrel and Rick were at their peak) still seek out achievements to accomplish, still get nervous and still be thrilled that he reached a goal.
> 
> 
> Folks, that's what it's all about. Regardless of what discipline one chooses.
> ...



One aspect you referred to is one that I think is critical. "battling head-to-head" has driven both of you to be better than I believe you would have been only competing against a score in the record book. As more and more of us step up to shoot in the tournaments, it would be fantastic if we could extend greater efforts to encourage the other barebowers out there to come along and compete with us. As steel sharpens steel, we cannot only improve, but also show that while barebow is challenging, it is not impossible, and those who routinely approach me and I'm sure you and Rick at tournaments and express such thoughts as "I wish I could do that" and " I want to try that some day" and "How do you do that?" would become a part. It seems people would rather join a group than be the only or only one of 2 who are shooting a discipline, especially one as maligned as barebow. Personally, I am excited and challenged by being back in Texas if only temporarily and seeing not only the esprit de corps you and Rick exhibit, but anticipating being a part of it after the warm welcome back I have received. I believe if that same mindset can be expanded to see additional archers included and recruited, we will see the movement that seems to be forming assume tremendous proportions. 

John, you and Rick are going after records Mel Sowell and I set when we were shooting together to make each other better and it is wonderful to see your success. Just remember though, we ain't dead yet. Just think what the 4 of us can do for the cause working together to show that it isn't just a single weirdo out there shooting a way that is "different".


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

What we as coaches and experienced archers say to new archers, matters. 

Being new to the sport, they are very impressionable (like the young lady I spoke to today) and stereotypes are easily set. 

Coaches are not serving their customers honestly if they steer them away from where their true passion lies.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Just to add to John's answer the premise also then banks in a zero sum mentality of anyone that doesn't win olympic medals is somehow deficient. The key thing that is archery's biggest selling point is that it is not a zero sum game. I can compensate for skill set with distance and target size. I have three different disciplines to attract kids to archery. Shooting better than your average is a worthwhile accomplishment. And most importantly, I am less likely to have casualties. The only "serious" archers shoot OR mantra means an a priori acceptance that we will loose kids, that there are acceptable casualties. USA archery should have the guiding principle that once we get a kid to try archery, we have them for life. Barebow is how many of them start and want to master it before they try something simpler.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> USA archery should have the guiding principle that once we get a kid to try archery, we have them for life. Barebow is how many of them start and want to master it before they try something simpler.


Pure gold Tom. I could not have said it any better.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

do lets be serious..is the comment really that out there 

-barebow is shooting style that aims, so its really not at stretch to advise putting on a real sight, and follow up with stabilizers which aid in steadying your aim. 
-trad too, is how many start before moving to something simpler like barebow(hitting a target without having a point on, tuning without cut past center or plunger) 
-yes the good BB shooters are close in score to a good oly shooter, as they should be both are aiming both have high end everything, one is a little better but of coarse he is a little steadier
so if I had a student that demonstrated a clear desire for QUICK on-target performance, I too would say get serious, with a sight and stabs as its simpler and quicker to get on target.

I get it, many are passionate about BB, I was too at one time, but referring to some ones archery viewpoint as stupid just helps with the barriers between classes. everyone thinks there way is better/harder and bla bla bla, but at the end of day to be excellent at any requires the same amount work/time/training/discipline and dedication. 

wayne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> for QUICK on-target performance, I too would say get serious


Again, that is a slap in the face to barebow archers who are every bit as "serious" about their discipline as any recurve or compound archer. You, like the coach I'm referring to, illustrate a very naive opinion. Stupid may have been the wrong word. Self-serving and naive are probably better terms. 

Self serving because why else would a coach redirect a student away from something they are interested in? If they are genuinely interested in shooting without sights or stabilizers or clickers, then the coach should either help them do that, or swallow their pride and help them find someone who can. 

Again, who is helping whom here?



> everyone thinks there way is better/harder and bla bla bla, but at the end of day to be excellent at any requires the same amount work/time/training/discipline and dedication.


Not necessarily. The top barebow shooters have a great deal of respect for the top compound and recurve shooters, I can assure you. They are uniquely different challenges and I'm glad we have all three for our archers to choose from. It's the idea that only two of the three are somehow "serious" that is offensive. It shows a real bias and IMO selfishness on the part of a coach because the y are not serving the archer if they redirect them in that way IMO, just as I would not be serving an archer who is interested in shooting compound by redirecting them to recurve. That's not our job. Our job as coaches is to help them improve at the discipline THEY choose.


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## deadeyedickwc (Jan 10, 2010)

i think most coaches don't push it cuz they don't really know how to teach it


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

deadeyedickwc said:


> i think most coaches don't push it cuz they don't really know how to teach it


I think this is part of the reason. I think some may be afraid a student may get frustrated and quit, so they encourage them to put on a sight as a way to retain them in the sport. I think that's flawed logic. A short-cut of sorts, for both the archer and the coach.

Rather than suggest they put a sight on their bow ( may as well suggest they use a compound and a release while they're at it...) why not just teach them how to be more accurate with the bow they already have in their hands?


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

deadeyedickwc said:


> i think most coaches don't push it cuz they don't really know how to teach it


While this may be true, it does not have to be a constant affliction. None are born knowing how to do this. The good barebow archers I know, many on this board, are the most helpful, generous people with their time to answer questions. Also, there is tons of literature out there and youtube is your friend to watch the technique of these archers. Is it not incumbent on us when we get a kid who comes to us who wants to shoot barebow to not learn as much as we can to help them? Or are we as coaches so elite that we segregate ourselves into specialties like doctors. I only coach OR.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Coaches not knowing how to teach BB is the biggest issue I have seen. Case in point, a 16 year old young lady who had been shooting BB recurve for almost a year, I helped her a bit whenever I could (she lived 4 hours away). She had progressed to shooting 255-260 on the NFAA indoor round and shot a 745 900 round. I advised her to get a coach close by to help her advance. So she went to the closest place just north of Seattle, took some lessons, first thing they did was move her anchor from a high anchor to an under the chin, told her she would never be any "good" with that high anchor. After completely screwing up her form and her scores dropped, she gave up. I have been trying to get her restarted but she is still pretty frustrated. They had her convinced only bad shots shot without sights... "So they had an excuse" for missing. Funny most of the so called "coaches" at that facility can't come close to my scores with their oly rigs. This thread hit a nerve with me, great posts John and Tom.


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## twofinger (Feb 12, 2012)

John,
I see this all the time over here on the compound side. we have the archery in schools but the first thing anybody wants to do is to slap a sight on the bow and a release in their hands. I have been asked a lot when am I going to but a sight on my bow and get a release and shoot like a man. I shoot unsighted compound because that's what I want to do. rsarns I have lost a few people too because of some ones stupid suggestions on what is needed to shoot. thank goodness we found a place were we can shoot no pressure just being who we are some wacky people that shoot with there fingers and have no sight on the bow.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Tom's right. Not coaching a discipline because you're not familiar with it is a weak excuse, at best. There are so many resources available to us today that just weren't there 20 years ago. I'm not a proficient barebow archer, but I read everything I come across on the subject to try to get a good grasp of how it can work. I've learned a ton from John, though he probably doesn't realize how much I've gleaned from him.

In this day and age, not knowing how to do something is not a viable excuse. Admitting some of the finer points may be beyond your skill set may be a good idea, but we can still get a new archer started on down the road on one of the few lifetime sports we have available to us!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Coaches pushing barebow archers toward using sights because they don't know how to coach barebow, only completes the vicious cycle, because then those archers will never be able to teach barebow either. 

Just as it takes courage to step out and shoot barebow target archery in a sea of Olympic recurves and compounds, it takes courage as a coach to learn about it (try it) and teach it. Not only are many archers not willing to humble themselves, many coaches are not either.

Just as I told the young lady yesterday who complained (a bit too much if you ask me ) that she was the "only" one in her division, she has a choice. She can either shoot barebow and be a leader, or shoot Olympic recurve and be a follower. Her choice.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

twofinger said:


> John,
> I see this all the time over here on the compound side. we have the archery in schools but the first thing anybody wants to do is to slap a sight on the bow and a release in their hands. I have been asked a lot when am I going to but a sight on my bow and get a release and shoot like a man. I shoot unsighted compound because that's what I want to do. rsarns I have lost a few people too because of some ones stupid suggestions on what is needed to shoot. thank goodness we found a place were we can shoot no pressure just being who we are some wacky people that shoot with there fingers and have no sight on the bow.


I've found the worst offenders of this are parents. Nothing makes a coach's job more difficult than parents that try to infuse machismo into archery. I'm dealing with parents right now that think they're little 9yr old girl pulling 19lbs on her compound needs to be shooting 300gr hunting arrows. :noidea:


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

No disrespect intended, but maybe by getting "serious" he meant getting serious about getting into a class with more competitors. Barebow looks way more challenging in terms of equipment, but it seems like there are scant number of barebow entrants in youth divisions. No class for them in Vegas. I would rather my kid to go head to head with 20 kids (or multiples of that in Vegas) in Olympic recurve or compound rather than face off against two other kids in barebow. There he can learn the lessons of competing against his peers,sportsmanship, see if his hard work is paying off, etc... Again, no disrespect intended.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great point Kevin. Esp. with the parents that are in a hurry to see their little one go bowhunting or think they are a lock for the 2020 Olympics.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Eberhart said:


> No disrespect intended, but maybe by getting "serious" he meant getting serious about getting into a class with more competitors. Barebow looks way more challenging in terms of equipment, but it seems like there are scant number of barebow entrants in youth divisions. No class for them in Vegas. I would rather my kid to go head to head with 20 kids (or multiples of that in Vegas) in Olympic recurve or compound rather than face off against two other kids in barebow. Again, no disrespect intended.


Even if that is what he meant, it is still flawed logic. 

Again, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Run all the young archers away from barebow, then put the division down because nobody is in it. Perfect. 

And actually there is a barebow class in Vegas, and it pays out quite a bit. Not only that, but it was won with a recurve this year, without a clicker. 

As far as what YOU would rather your kid do, I would ask you what difference does that make? What about what the kid wants? I mean, it's their score they are signing for and they are the ones who put in the practice time. If they would rather shoot barebow, why not respect that?

Regardless of how many there are in a division, great shooting is great shooting. There are always records to go after even if nobody else shows up. 

One of my students who wanted to learn barebow (I give my students whatever option they want) went on to represent the U.S. in Croatia at the World Field Championships. He was a Cadet, shooting up as a Junior. He helped the U.S. Juniors to win bronze at that event. Had I not honored this young man's wishes, he would not have made that team, and the U.S. Juniors would not have come home with world championship medals. 

At some point, coaches, parents and archers have to have the courage to step up, stop the vicious cycle, and put an end to the discrimination against those who choose to shoot barebow.


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

There is a _youth_ bare bow class in Vegas?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One thing about it, all these barebow threads have certainly illustrated the discrimination, negligence, stereotypes and just honest ignorance about barebow better than I ever could have. 

For that, I appreciate the responses in opposition to, or that have questioned barebow as a division.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Eberhart said:


> There is a _youth_ bare bow class in Vegas?


Not yet.  

But why Vegas? Why not your state championship or this year - US Outdoor Nationals, where there will be youth barebow divisions?

Had your child shot the barebow divison in Vegas, I can only imagine the support and recognition they would have received from the adult barebow archers. Believe me, it would have been incredibly memorable for them.

Many times, there are things we take away from tournaments that are much more valuable than trophies.


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

Our state championship had maybe one or two kids max, in barebow. One of the reasons I encouraged my son to shoot archery was the lessons you learn from competing, in any sport. If he's the only barebow shooter, most of the time, at a shoot, it turns into a hobby, not competition. Nothing wrong with that, but he wants to sling arrows and try and beat the super-competitive hordes of kids shooting compound right now. Plus, our schedule and coaching is centered on JOAD where there is no barebow. JOAD is exploding in popularity around us.

Respectfully,

Dave Eberhart


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Again, that is a slap in the face to barebow archers who are every bit as "serious" about their discipline as any recurve or compound archer. You, like the coach I'm referring to, illustrate a very naive opinion. Stupid may have been the wrong word. Self-serving and naive are probably better terms.
> 
> *sorry limbwalker, cant let ya have it, as I don't agree
> no one said BB archers aren't serious, quite the opposite you have to be to serious to choose that style, everyone has said its the one of the hardest I personally know this. *
> ...


*the top any archer has a great deal of respect for all disciplines as its also character that produces good shooters, again never said they didn't have a great deal respect, most of us think our way is better that why we shoot it didn't mean to imply less respect.
what I am trying to say is that your passion for BB my be having you see things like slaps when they are not or intended as such, as it helps to champion the cause and drive your passion. possible ?*


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

wanemann said:


> *the top any archer has a great deal of respect for all disciplines as its also character that produces good shooters, again never said they didn't have a great deal respect, most of us think our way is better that why we shoot it didn't mean to imply less respect.
> what I am trying to say is that your passion for BB my be having you see things like slaps when they are not or intended as such, as it helps to champion the cause and drive your passion. possible ?*


what?

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

wanemann said:


> * again with the no sights, arrow tip match stick 400$ sureloc its a sight!!!! interested in shooting without sights stabilizers or clickers recommend trad, it could be said that you are self serving trying to influence staying in BB when you yourself said she clearly wants quick on target results. just sayin,
> 
> the top any archer has a great deal of respect for all disciplines as its also character that produces good shooters, again never said they didn't have a great deal respect, most of us think our way is better that why we shoot it didn't mean to imply less respect.
> what I am trying to say is that your passion for BB my be having you see things like slaps when they are not or intended as such, as it helps to champion the cause and drive your passion. possible ?*


what?

Chris


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> what?
> 
> Chris


ya sorry, I was trying to respond LW comments but not sure how to do it properly. don't know hot to get the entire points to show up and imput also, or maybe I just don't make sense.
sorry


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I see the same problem as RSarns. Coaches with certifications who do not have the first clue about BB archery trying to get people to shoot BB using Oly technique. They let the students struggle long enough to almost quit and then throw them the sight and stab like a lifeline.

There may be some similarities between Oly and BB, but there are just as many differences. As you get into the finer details of execution those differences become even more apparent.

-Grant


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## twofinger (Feb 12, 2012)

here is what fita thinks about bare bow taken right from the coaches training manual on their web sight
Barebow archers develop a good feeling for their bow
and can later switch to a recurve or a compound bow if
they want to. Shooting a barebow is more and more accepted
as a learning process for beginners.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I once again found myself face to face with a well-respected and well-known coach today that when asked about his archers shooting barebow replied "I usually encourage them to "get serious" (his words) and put sights and a stabilizer on as soon as they can."
> 
> Get serious? Seriously?
> 
> ...


I practiced with my sighted bow on the same target as Rebecca Nelson-Harris who had traveled to Arizona to participate in one of the few FITA field tournaments held in the U.S. She was amazing -- shooting very small groups at around 50 meters. Perhaps your young archer just needs a role model.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Eberhart said:


> Our state championship had maybe one or two kids max, in barebow. One of the reasons I encouraged my son to shoot archery was the lessons you learn from competing, in any sport. If he's the only barebow shooter, most of the time, at a shoot, it turns into a hobby, not competition. Nothing wrong with that, but he wants to sling arrows and try and beat the super-competitive hordes of kids shooting compound right now. Plus, our schedule and coaching is centered on JOAD where there is no barebow. JOAD is exploding in popularity around us.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Dave Eberhart


Dave, I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly and I don't want to make any assumptions so please correct me if I'm minsunderstanding.

You say you want him to be able to compete, and I totally get that. It is unfortunate that we have to search so hard at times for competition in this division. However, again, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy if barebow archers continue to leave the division because there aren't enough barebow archers. Somewhere, the bleeding has to stop. 

As for JOAD, yes, JOAD absolutely has barebow. Maybe not in indoor nationals yet, but it will. And the JOAD achievement program offers plenty of challenge for a young barebow archer (or even an adult) to earn achievement pins. I have what I think may have been the first barebow JOAD Olympian in my club, and he works hard to earn his next Olympian pin, regardless of whether anyone else is there shooting with him, or against him at a competition. He has goals. And they are real, and they are challenging.

Regarding beating the super-competitive compound archers, why is that a goal? I mean, is it to prove one can beat someone with more equipment on their bow? I'm not sure I'm following the lessons you're trying to teach, or the supporting the goals that may not be the most well intentioned. 

Shooting well with whatever you decide to use, should be the goal. Beating others? Hmm. I dunno. It's fun to win, sure, but competition with others should be viewed as a way to bring out the best in ourselves, not a way to demonstrate we are better than the rest.

John


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

"Shooting well with whatever you decide to use, should be the goal"

Agree 100%. Apologize for the barebow/JOAD error.

Dave


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> I practiced with my sighted bow on the same target as Rebecca Nelson-Harris who had traveled to Arizona to participate in one of the few FITA field tournaments held in the U.S. She was amazing -- shooting very small groups at around 50 meters. Perhaps your young archer just needs a role model.


Indeed. But if all our future role models are talked out of shooting barebow, who will be the role models for the next generation?

As for the fita language, it just demonstrates the ignorance and bias that extends all the way up to the top. I consider it more ignorance, but some of it is - as I've said - outright self-serving bias. 

BTW, for those who think I'm some kind of off-the-chain barebow zealot, I would remind them that I put down the barebow in 2003 to compete with the Olympic rig at a few events in 2004, and then have gone on to coach both compound and Olympic style archers to Jr. USAT and Jr. World Championship teams. I have since returned (for now) to shooting barebow, and see it as an equal discipline to compound and recurve. Not better, but certainly equal.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interesting. As a coach who's club has almost 1/5th of its members shooting barebow either competitively or recreationally, I don't understand the bias against it. 

Even on the State level, we embrace Barebow pretty readily. And the major Arizona clubs (mine at Desert Sky, my son's at Corner, HikerDave's at Paseo Vista) have state champion and record holders. We all have people that enjoy it. 

And that's what may be the case here. In some areas, you have clubs and coaches that encourage whatever it takes to keep the interest of the archer in the forefront.

In others, you have clubs and coaches that do not work in the best interests of the archer. Hence the "serious" issue at hand here. The coach isn't willing to put their ego aside and work with what the archer wants.


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> ...I put down the barebow in 2003 to compete with the Olympic rig at a few events in 2004...


That's hilarious! "..._at a few events in 2004_" - um, like the Athens Olympic Games, for example?


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

Beastmaster said:


> Interesting. As a coach who's club has almost 1/5th of its members shooting barebow either competitively or recreationally, I don't understand the bias against it.


And our club (a collegiate club/team) has the opposite situation as what this thread is about - almost everybody only wants to shoot barebow. We've got a couple dozen stabilizers, sights, and clickers that mostly just sit neatly in our storage box; every once in a while someone will get them out and set them up, their groups will shrink, but then by the next practice they'll go back to shooting barebow. "It's just more relaxing" I heard someone say.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I for one consider myself a "serious" barebow shooter. I invest a lot of my time and efforts to learning this discipline. I travel and shoot at as many events as I can afford to go to. Am I a good barebow shooter? Not even close. This weekend was our state Indoor NFAA 300 championships. I shot a 487 of 600 over the weekend. Dead last. Wasn't even close to the three other outstanding barebow/Trad shooters that spanked me. Everything I have learned about shooting is trial and error on my own. There are no coaches. My scores has been flat for 5 years. I have no idea what to do to move up. Am I frustrated? absolutely. But does that stop me? No, I have a passion for this.

To have someone say that what I am doing is not serious just infuriates me.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Beastmaster,
Almost the same ratio in Texas, maybe a bit more in 4H. It is basically "if you offer it, they will come "',especially when Hollywood has handed us the PR and marketing help with Katniss, Meredith, Hawkeye, Robin Hood, etc. Teach them to shoot well with what ever floats their boat. They can look around and try the other disciplines when it interests THEM, not the coach. I have encouraged every single student I have worked with the last 20 years once they start thinking of themselves as an athlete to try the other disciplines just to understand and respect the other archers accomplishments and skill sets.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> As a coach who's club has* almost 1/5th of its members shooting barebow either competitively or recreationally*, I don't understand the bias against it.


 :darkbeer: 

Roboto, 487 is not bad. Anyone who can score 240+ on that blue/white indoor face is a pretty good barebow archer IMO. I've long considered 240 on that round to be the "journeyman" level for NFAA trad or barebow - the point where someone can and should be proud they have achieved that level of proficiency. 260 is what I consider outstanding archery, and 280 is the present day elite level for NFAA trad.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Eberhart said:


> There is a _youth_ bare bow class in Vegas?


Yes and No. There is no old man's class either but I compete in the barebow class just as your youth could. It's called paying your dues and the sooner a youth gets started the faster they will , hopefully, get up to speed within that class.


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

He shot freestyle bowman and cub last two years there, with his peers, 80 of them this year. He's paying his dues.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Eberhart said:


> He shot freestyle bowman and cub last two years there, with his peers, 80 of them this year. He's paying his dues.


80 is a good number. Of course , he could be paying his dues shooting with the over 9000 NASP barebow archers in Louisville, Kentucky for the National indoor championships last year.


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

9000?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Eberhart said:


> 9000?


We have over 1000 registered for our State NASP championship in a few weeks. Think about that. 1000 barebow archers from elementary thru high school all competing together. We just held a warmup at our club for the local schools, I think it was 100 children shooting BB (even tho its compound).


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

Those are great numbers, nice to see. I only see a handful of youth barebow shooters in the NFAA Kentucky results from last year. Do they have a separate event in Louisville for NASP?


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

I do not believe coaches should encourage either the Olympic Style or the Barebow Style over the other. If the higher level USA archery coaches are promoting sighted divisions over non-sighted, that would seem to be a problem in the way USA archery promotes the divisions. The JOAD program as well as USA archery seem to be only interested in producing Olympic style shooters.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Eberhart said:


> Those are great numbers, nice to see. I only see a handful of youth barebow shooters in the NFAA Kentucky results from last year. Do they have a separate event in Louisville for NASP?


Yes, it is a separate event, usually the following weekend if I remember correctly. It is the biggest archery tournament in the world


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Eberhart said:


> 9000?


I misspoke. The actual number was 10,443 barebow archers at the 2014 NASP indoor nationals in Kentucky. The amazing thing is that the archers all competed at the Expo center in one weekend.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

itbeso said:


> I misspoke. The actual number was 10,443 barebow archers at the 2014 NASP indoor nationals in Kentucky. The amazing thing is that the archers all competed at the Expo center in one weekend.


:wink:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

It is all in your perception. I thought it was extremely funny when watching video of the WA field Championship team finals between France and the United States, that the announcers made the observation that Brady Ellison seemed to be the weak link of the team( which consisted of 1 compound, 1 oly style, and 1 barebow). I'm never going to let Brady live that down.:teeth:


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

Do they compete at NASP individually or as school teams? Had no idea that many participated, impressive.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Eberhart said:


> Do they compete at NASP individually or as school teams? Had no idea that many participated, impressive.


Eberhardt, they compete as both. There are individual champions and team champions based on school grade levels, starting with middle school if I'm not mistaken. Boys and girls competitions individually. You can go to the National Archery in the School website for more info.


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

thanks, will check it out.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

NASP actually starts in elementary school. The big issue is how do we keep these young archers involved in archery? We try to be active in NASP as volunteers here and to get the whole family shooting, then get them involved in our clubs.


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## UtahIdahoHunter (Mar 27, 2008)

I think half of the compound shooters that I beat last Saturday in a tournament with my barebow setup are taking barebow a little more seriously. :wink: The group of compound shooters that I was paired with were blown away when many of my arrows were touching theirs in the 12 spot.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

rsarns said:


> NASP actually starts in elementary school. The big issue is how do we keep these young archers involved in archery? We try to be active in NASP as volunteers here and to get the whole family shooting, then get them involved in our clubs.


NASP has to be willing to give people a transition path. 

Using Arizona as an example, we had one school as an experimental transition path from NASP to JOAD. The powers that be on the NASP side wasn't crazy about the school being both. 

The grief got to a point the NASP portion disappeared and the school went all JOAD. Then the school booted the JOAD club portion out and it's transitioned to a shop based JOAD.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> NASP has to be willing to give people a transition path.
> 
> Using Arizona as an example, we had one school as an experimental transition path from NASP to JOAD. The powers that be on the NASP side wasn't crazy about the school being both.
> 
> The grief got to a point the NASP portion disappeared and the school went all JOAD. Then the school booted the JOAD club portion out and it's transitioned to a shop based JOAD.


Wow, that's unfortunate.

So, NASP requires that NASP take place during regular school hours. Was the JOAD an after hours program? Seems like that shouldn't be a conflict, especially given that I thought NASP only happens for a few weeks out of the year. :dontknow:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> We have over 1000 registered for our State NASP championship in a few weeks. Think about that. 1000 barebow archers from elementary thru high school all competing together. We just held a warmup at our club for the local schools, I think it was 100 children shooting BB (even tho its compound).


Is it any wonder why we allow Genesis bows in our barebow division here in Texas? Same basic shot, same principles. Only difference is the wheels on the bow. I do hope that many of those NASP kids choose to get "serious" about target barebow someday. They have a great foundation in the discipline already.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

"BTW, for those who think I'm some kind of off-the-chain barebow zealot, I would remind them that I put down the barebow in 2003 to compete with the Olympic rig at a few events in 2004, and then have gone on to coach both compound and Olympic style archers to Jr. USAT and Jr. World Championship teams. I have since returned (for now) to shooting barebow, and see it as an equal discipline to compound and recurve. Not better, but certainly equal."

if this was intended for me, I am aware of your resume/accomplishments, contributions and what events you attended in 2004. I am also aware that you have probably forgotten more about archery than I will ever know, I intended no disrespect in challenging how you perceived the comment. I too see bb as an equal discipline but understand how some may have misguided view. I don't think you are a off-the-chain barebow zealot, not yet anyways(totally kidding) 

wayne


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

LOL, Limbwalker got all fired up. 

One issue is that USAA and JOAD is deliberately targeted at producing Oly shooters. That is their mission. That's OK, however they could do a better job of "growing the base" by accommodating other styles. Top Oly shooters are like the top of the pyramid, and the bigger the base the higher the pyramid can go.

This is where NFAA could really help by aligning their barebow class to the WA standard. It would provide a solid venue for world-class barebow.

Yeah, the comment about getting serious and putting on a stab and sight... that's a tough one. I can see feeling insulted, as I regard what I do even more challenging that either compound or Oly recurve. But, they wouldn't know as they have not done it. I like to shoot next to them and let them watch my arrows fall comparably to theirs. That speaks for itself. I know they would fare much worse on field or 3D, and when they accept the challenge they get a good lesson in humility. I think their "get serious" response is likely due to ignorance and the deliberate promotion of Oly shooters, as that is their mission. I am sure that archery shops and suppliers don't mind the extra sales either.

Nice to see NASP keeping it barebow, though. At least kids can get a good foundation.

I suppose barebow may also be a bit of a maturity thing too. I think many of us come to barebow after shooting for many years, and take it up as a realization that the doodads are cool but somehow we never really learned how to shoot the bow. That's how I feel, at least. I describe shooting barebow as learning how to aim with my body, seeking to use my anatomy to produce the mechanical optimizations otherwise attained with accessories. The skill then is in me, not so much the equipment. LOL, it is great on your ego too as when you miss there is also no equipment issue to blame it on.

In any case, I am not sure if I would feel angry or sorry if I heard the "get serious" comment.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

I saw a post from another forum (about bow color rules) that I think is relevant here:


bimble said:


> The sport... the aim of WA is, and has been since it's inception, to hold regular World Championships and the attendance of the sport at the Olympic Games. Subsequently, the appearance of the sport and it's competitors at it's shoots, especially at the highest levels, is something they have to worry about. Want to bum about at your home club, they don't care. Representing the sport in front of an audience of millions at the Olympics, then they do.
> 
> Archery GB, being the national associated body to World Archery therefore has to abide by the rules set out by WA.
> 
> And as someone has pointed out, if you don't like those rules, there are other organisations with different rules...


And since USAA is teaching the coaches, the focus on OR is understandable, barebow isn't in the Olympics. Same thing is going on in the Netherlands where the focus on the NHB is on OR, but they've started a indoor barebow competition alongside the recurve indoor competition. 
I believe it is the coaches fault to put the interests of the WA/USAA/NHB before the interest of the archer in question. A coach should help the archer to the best of his/her ability whatever class the archer chooses to shoot in. Unwilling or unable to do that, steer the archer toward a coach that can and will, don't steer the archer towards a class they don't like to shoot in. Putting time and effort into an archer shooting OR which will drop out because their heart isn't with it is a bigger waste than that archer not shooting OR to begin with. When beginners want to shoot barebow after the initial course has ended I'll show them the basics to the best of my abilities and introduce them to barebow archers who know more about barebow archery and can help them along.


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

In many sports, It does seem like there's a human nature tendency to advance the sport in the direction of technology and gadgets. Inevitably, when manufacturers get involved, the disciplines that require more of their gadgets and technology receive more money and thus, more events, more advertisements, more popularity. Right or wrong, it happens often.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I believe it is the coaches fault to put the interests of the WA/USAA/NHB before the interest of the archer in question. A coach should help the archer to the best of his/her ability whatever class the archer chooses to shoot in. Unwilling or unable to do that, steer the archer toward a coach that can and will, don't steer the archer towards a class they don't like to shoot in. Putting time and effort into an archer shooting OR which will drop out because their heart isn't with it is a bigger waste than that archer not shooting OR to begin with. When beginners want to shoot barebow after the initial course has ended I'll show them the basics to the best of my abilities and introduce them to barebow archers who know more about barebow archery and can help them along.


Well said, and exactly my point.

And I'm not hanging this one on any "organization." In fact, props to WA for even having a barebow world championship division (albeit field only, but it's a start). 

I'm hanging this one on individual archers, coaches and event organizers who hold these biases for whatever reason. Most of them, IMO are self serving. I see few opinions like these that are based purely on ignorance alone. Usually there is something "in it" for the coach or official when they steer someone away from barebow. The perceived "prestige" of having a top compound or recurve student vs. a top barebow archer is very much at play here, I think.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Can you even believe the irony here? 

The greater population as a whole clearly views barebow as the most pure and challenging form of archery. This is easy to see from all the movie characters who are shooting (wait for it...) BAREBOW. 

That is what gets non-archers fired up about archery. The idea that maybe they could do something like that with a simple bow.

Then, along comes the "veteran" archer or coach who immediately makes this new archer feel completely ignorant and inadequate because they dare to dream about shooting well with a simple bow. 

Yea, that's really serving our new customers well.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I believe it is the coaches fault to put the interests of the WA/USAA/NHB before the interest of the archer in question. A coach should help the archer to the best of his/her ability whatever class the archer chooses to shoot in. Unwilling or unable to do that, steer the archer toward a coach that can and will, don't steer the archer towards a class they don't like to shoot in. Putting time and effort into an archer shooting OR which will drop out because their heart isn't with it is a bigger waste than that archer not shooting OR to begin with. When beginners want to shoot barebow after the initial course has ended I'll show them the basics to the best of my abilities and introduce them to barebow archers who know more about barebow archery and can help them along.


Well said, and exactly my point.


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## db2460 (Nov 6, 2013)

Like it or not, when I look around the range during my practices, I do tend to see that people that show up to try out archery or people that shoot casually are shooting a bare recurve. People see Katniss, and the shooting range are more crowded. Lars video shows up, and there are people shooting horse bows holding 4 arrows in their bow hand and putting arrows two lanes away or into electrical conduits. Like it or not, it happens. On the walls at the back of the range are hung shop rentals. They are bare recurves. It is a less costly way to introduce someone to archery to use a bare recurve than one with full complement of gear or a compound bow. So in a very real sense, it is a common path of introduction to archery. I don't fault anyone for the perception that bare recurve is the path of introduction to archery. Like it or not, it is.

However, where I do fault those that should know better is the confusion of the label "serious" to describe the equipment instead of the person's mindset and dedication to the sport. To label bare bow as less serious than other shooting styles is a disservice and insulting to all those who puts in hours and hours honing their craft in their chosen style of shooting. It takes just as much effort to do well in one class as another. Granted the yardstick of measure is different, but make no mistakes. It takes just as much dedication to do well among your peers in one class as another. Conversely, there are people who shoot Olympic style that are in no way serious about their training or their dedication to the craft. I see shooters shooting expensive Olympic set ups that are just going through the motions. Does the equipment one use automatically confer a statement about his dedication to the sport? Heck no! Coaches should know better. Those in the position of authority as USA Archery should know better. They should be choosing their words more carefully to avoid, either intentionally or unintentionally, passing on inappropriate preconceived notions that may influence minds that are more malleable. Equipment does not make one serious about his sport. Dedication to the sport does. You can't buy your way into being serious about an activity. You have to work for it, and you can do it in any of the style that interests you. Ironically, the best way to become not serious is to do something in which you do not find an interest or with which you cannot identify. Coaches should know that better than anyone else.


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

j.conner said:


> One issue is that USAA and JOAD is deliberately targeted at producing Oly shooters. That is their mission.


Maybe it is the case that USAA is overemphasizing its focus on Oly shooters, but that is not its only mission. 
They are also, supposedly, trying to "Foster the sport of Archery as a national pastime" and "grow the sport of archery".


Here is both the USAA's Purpose and Mission (_verbatim_, USAA Bylaws, as Amended November 22, 2014): 
Section 3.1. Purpose
The purpose of USAA is to foster the sport of Archery as a national pastime from which
we can develop interest and abilities at all age levels to include international sports
superiority in archery programs and athlete performance.​Section 3.2. Mission.
The mission of USAA shall be to enable United States athletes to achieve sustained
competitive excellence in Olympic, Pan American or Paralympic and World
Championship competition and to promote and grow the sport of Archery in the United
States.​


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

db2460 said:


> Like it or not, when I look around the range during my practices, I do tend to see that people that show up to try out archery or people that shoot casually are shooting a bare recurve. People see Katniss, and the shooting range are more crowded. Lars video shows up, and there are people shooting horse bows holding 4 arrows in their bow hand and putting arrows two lanes away or into electrical conduits. Like it or not, it happens. On the walls at the back of the range are hung shop rentals. They are bare recurves. It is a less costly way to introduce someone to archery to use a bare recurve than one with full complement of gear or a compound bow. So in a very real sense, it is a common path of introduction to archery. I don't fault anyone for the perception that bare recurve is the path of introduction to archery. Like it or not, it is.
> 
> However, where I do fault those that should know better is the confusion of the label "serious" to describe the equipment instead of the person's mindset and dedication to the sport. To label bare bow as less serious than other shooting styles is a disservice and insulting to all those who puts in hours and hours honing their craft in their chosen style of shooting. It takes just as much effort to do well in one class as another. Granted the yardstick of measure is different, but make no mistakes. It takes just as much dedication to do well among your peers in one class as another. Conversely, there are people who shoot Olympic style that are in no way serious about their training or their dedication to the craft. I see shooters shooting expensive Olympic set ups that are just going through the motions. Does the equipment one use automatically confer a statement about his dedication to the sport? Heck no! Coaches should know better. Those in the position of authority as USA Archery should know better. They should be choosing their words more carefully to avoid, either intentionally or unintentionally, passing on inappropriate preconceived notions that may influence minds that are more malleable. Equipment does not make one serious about his sport. Dedication to the sport does. You can't buy your way into being serious about an activity. You have to work for it, and you can do it in any of the style that interests you. Ironically, the best way to become not serious is to do something in which you do not find an interest or with which you cannot identify. Coaches should know that better than anyone else.


Very well said, all of it. 
Just make sure the people shooting the electrical conduits aren't using aluminum arrows.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Most of the arrows I see sticking out of the walls and ceilings of ranges (and venues like Texas A&M's indoor nationals) were put there by overbowed compounders with trigger releases. 

You are 100% correct that seriousness is in the mind of the archer, not the equipment they are using. I know plenty of compound and even (gasp!) "Olympic" recurve (in name only to be sure) archers who are dreadfully lazy and sloppy, but who still show up at major events.

When someone in USArchery mentioned (and they know better around me) they were concerned about misses by barebow archers outdoors, and couched it with the comment "we don't want them to get discouraged" (yea, right) I quickly said "then you need to begin qualifications for all archers at Nationals, since a newbie compound or Olympic archer is already missing the bale." I mean, look at the # of arrows JimC recovers every year. That's not from barebow archers folks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

_JR_ said:


> Maybe it is the case that USAA is overemphasizing its focus on Oly shooters, but that is not its only mission.
> They are also, supposedly, trying to "Foster the sport of Archery as a national pastime" and "grow the sport of archery".
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you JR for saving me the trouble.


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## Darryl Longbow (Apr 11, 2003)

It is unfortunate that the only "real" archery today that is "serious" to far to many is the compound and release. The Olympic styles are often thought off that only a few specialist participate in it. Bare bow of any kind is seen as something only for beginners. Everyone knows you cant hit anything for real without a sight anyway and just barely with a sight if you use your fingers to release with. We are constantly bombarded with that attitude by the vast majority of equipment manufacturers (compound) today. We now have far to many people who have never touched a bow string in their life except to hook a release to it because they are being taught that that is the only way to be successful, whatever way you define successful is. I started barebow,went Olympic style, then compound style, and then back to barebow. It took awhile but I considered the return to barebow to be a step up and not a step back. Many of the people I shot the compound with thought I was crazy to go "backward" It seems they never consider each person must challenge themselves in the way they see fit.Instant success is now the watch word and for a coach to dismiss something they know nothing about is just wrong. The modern mentality at its worst.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

_JR_ said:


> Maybe it is the case that USAA is overemphasizing its focus on Oly shooters, but that is not its only mission.
> They are also, supposedly, trying to "Foster the sport of Archery as a national pastime" and "grow the sport of archery".
> 
> 
> ...


This struck me as odd when I first looked it up - how can USAA have different mission and purpose statements? They are synonyms. Pick _one,_ and put all the stuff in one coherent list.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> We now have far to many people who have never touched a bow string in their life except to hook a release to it


I realized this about 10 years ago when a young man in his mid-20's came to me for a lesson. He had shot compounds since he was a kid, but had NEVER grabbed a bowstring with his fingers. 

When he told me that, I was like "dude....give me a second here...." :mg:

That's when it hit me that there was a whole new generation that had grown up with the compound bow as their idea of a "bow." 

I'm not saying it's wrong, it was just like the "changing of the guard" or something. I honestly had to take a minute to even process that.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Interesting comment about a "...the perception that bare recurve is the path of introduction to archery. Like it or not, it is."

There is a lot of truth to this. When I first got started in archery, my wife and I went to a local archery shop, and bought a pair of PSE Buckeye bows for $90 each and a set of cheap aluminum arrows. So at the range we were one of those people just flinging arrows out into the air in hopes of hitting the target. It was about $200 investment for us to determine if this is something that we would like to do together. We got hooked on it. I upgraded to a competition target wooden barebow for $800, and my wife got a complete Olympic rig for $800 that cost about $2000 new from a kid at the club that discovered girls were more fun then shooting. She got a great deal. I am now in the process of spending $1500 on an ILF barebow rig.

So there is a lot of truth to the comment that a simple barebow recurve is an entry level route into archery.

We all started out at this "entry level". We all started with cheap bows recurve or compound.

But at some point we make a decision that this is either a hobby or a passion. For those of us that have developed a passion for archery, this is very serious to us regardless of shooting a bare bow, Olympic, compound, cross bow, etc.

It is not about the equipment, it is the Heart Passion for archery that makes all of this happen. Archery clubs, organizations, tournaments, and equipment manufacturers would not exists if it wasn't for those that have the Heart Passion for archery.

Everyone that has a passion for archery is serious about archery. It doesn't matter what equipment they use, and it doesn't even matter if they compete.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Well, I guess I will chime in here, as i am a barebow shooter with a rather similar story to a couple of people here...BTW Mike Frizzell, missed shooting with you in Hamilton :sad: 

Anyway, I started my archery journey shooting crossbow, then went to recurve, then went to compound, and figured if I wasn't in the X ring all the time I should hang it up, but then I got pregnant with our son, and after he came into being, I switched to BB because i had a bit of TP and BB cured the TP right away. I have had NO FORMAL TRAINING in BB, I have taught myself, basically everything I know, and though I know I can score much better, with AC joint issues, I cannot practice all that I want to.

So, I wish there was a "LIKE" button because I would have liked to have liked many comments on this thread! 

Having shot many different archery styles, I find BB to be the most rewarding and most challenging. Why? You might ask! It is because it is PURE ARCHERY. It is you, it is your bow, it is your arrows. I am practicing with modern longbow for NFAA Louisville! I'm fired up, and I like doing this. It's even more pure than "FITA BAREBOW" (or should we call it WA BAREBOW now?)

I've shot BB, at JOAD with none other than First 1300, and no matter what Darrell picks up HE IS FRIGGIN' AMAZING! I just enjoy watching him do what he does! He has mastered the ART OF ALL FORMS OF ARCHERY. 

Back to me, so I love this barebow thang and I will continue to compete in the discipline. It is a passion that is within, and it is hard to describe, but once you get hooked, you'll probably never go back, or if you do, you will always return to the barebow, because THAT IS ARCHERY IN IT'S PUREST FORM!
'
Rules be damned, we don't need no stinkin' sights! We just need a stick and some arrows, and a target, if you please, and by gum, we'll fling 'em right next to yours, just watch us! You'll see!

Get serious, indeed, we are, in our hearts dedicated to this art form of archery called barebow! 

Now, you come shoot with us at the NTC in Decatur AL, and let's get our numbers up so we can show we are serious!

Keep the thread alive! It's great theater!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

My only barebow student just called to say she is signing up for the state indoor tournament, her first! So glad that the NFAA has a class where you don't have to drop $2k to play!!!!

SB


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I always found it interesting that the hardest form of archery is how most are introduced to archery


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

erose said:


> I always found it interesting that the hardest form of archery is how most are introduced to archery


Like learning to drive a stick instead of an automatic... Harder at first, but it makes you more versatile.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

So with all these motivating posts, what is the distances and target sizes in Decatur for BB?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

erose said:


> So with all these motivating posts, what is the distances and target sizes in Decatur for BB?


60 meters and 122 centimeter.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> I always found it interesting that the hardest form of archery is how most are introduced to archery


Actually, the notion that barebow is for beginners is pretty amusing really. Why? Because the vast majority of people who walk into an archery shop with zero experience are handed a compound with sights and a release. THAT folks, is the modern day beginner bow. Let's be honest here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> So with all these motivating posts, what is the distances and target sizes in Decatur for BB?


Senior (Adult) and Masters - 60M, Juniors and Cadets - 50M, Cubs and Bowmen - 30M, all on 122cm faces.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks, I think I will work on my BB shooting


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## berretta (Mar 10, 2015)

I wish there guys and or coaches with yalls passion in my town here in small town Alabama. Hell i wish there was one coach with half yalls enthusiasm. Hell i wish there was a coach period. There is one shop here in town and all they carry and all they are concerned with is hunting. Ever since i bought my first recurve several months ago i have been hooked. Then i heard a town that is several hours away opened a municipal archery park. That is when i decided to get a target compound and start teaching myself how to shoot. Maybe with any luck they will eventually hire a few coaches to workthe park instead of just a couple of grounds keepers. Thnksguys.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

On July 1 through the 5, in Decatur there will be the USAA Outdoor Nationals. Go check it it. In fact, compete in it. Best place to learn who is who on the local scene is to jump right into the middle of the action. I am sure you will meet quite a bunch of people that are near you that will help you develop your skills and passion.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

berretta said:


> I wish there guys and or coaches with yalls passion in my town here in small town Alabama. Hell i wish there was one coach with half yalls enthusiasm. Hell i wish there was a coach period. There is one shop here in town and all they carry and all they are concerned with is hunting. Ever since i bought my first recurve several months ago i have been hooked. Then i heard a town that is several hours away opened a municipal archery park. That is when i decided to get a target compound and start teaching myself how to shoot. Maybe with any luck they will eventually hire a few coaches to workthe park instead of just a couple of grounds keepers. Thnksguys.


Ummm you know Rod Jenkins is from Alabama (Decatur). I'd give him a call and try to set something up. He has lots of experience and is an excellent instructor IMO.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

SBills said:


> Ummm you know Rod Jenkins is from Alabama (Decatur). I'd give him a call and try to set something up. He has lots of experience and is an excellent instructor IMO.


Absolutely!


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

...now in 2021.

Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but I thought I would add a few thoughts about my barebow experience so far.

I got into barebow after finding Olympic recurve on YouTube. I don't care if those folks have sight, stabilizers, and clickers, those scores at 70 m are amazing. I watched a whole bunch and then I found a European Field tournament. Totally awesome. Those Swedes are crazy good. And then targets at different distances and elevations--with stunning scores--I was hooked.

The only real problem is all this happened in a pandemic year. Archery programs and ranges were effectively closed. I did research and waited for a chance for an introductory archery lesson. I was able to get one in May. Loved it. The beginning of June, after a months of research, we went up to Lancaster Archery and got our gear. I had already found a couple of local groups we could shoot with on a public range. So far, so good.

The first group was pretty much either compound or traditional with a few Olympic shooters (no barebow). Within five minutes of arriving, the Olympic shooter told me all the things I was doing wrong (apparently, archers are not big on small talk). They went on to say I should not waste my time stringwalking because they had tried it and it does not work. Most people there were just doing their own thing and were quite hostile to new archers (to be fair, the organizers were really nice and even gave us a really nice intro lesson).

The second group were actually into developing their skills. They were Olympic recurve shooters and listed through USA Archery as coaches (I had joined USAA earlier to find places and events). They gave some useful advice and training on form, but knew nothing about barebow. But again, one coach told me that stringwalking does not work and it is just a fad. I did appreciate their help, but it was going to be limited. I do enjoy shooting with them, but I feel they don't take the discipline seriously.

I did also contact another USA Archery club in the region that looks fairly serious that puts on tournaments, but have not had a reply.

Fortunately, I don't get easily discouraged: if my mom could not get me to listen to her, I don't understand why a total stranger would expect to be successful. My wife and I have been working on our form and shooting. We have a lot of resources on the internet. We coach ourselves and use video to check what we are doing. The best thing was finding a really nice public range. We go as often as we can and it has been great to put things into practice that we do at home. Not ideal, but given the previous experience, we are certainly getting more out of it.

My goals is to eventually compete in field. I have no idea if the I am going to find the same kind of reception, but if it adds to my own goals, I will get what I need from competing. (I know archery is a competitive sport, but I didn't expect a rat race.)

I have seen a lot of great things happen in barebow on the internet. It does seem to be a growing community, but it does not seem to have reached critical mass. The only barebow archer I have met is my wife and I bought her the bow.

Anyway, I saw this old thread from 2015 and it kind of mirrored my experience. While I think barebow has grown since 2015, I am not sure it has grown enough to support those trying to get into the sport.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I bought a recurve of low draw weight because I was tired of pulling 45 pounds on a compound, among other things. IMHO BB is just as complex as setting up and shooting a compound. Maybe even more so. It's frustrating to try to develop form and tuning when the resources are internet videos and printed materials when your learning style is watching and hands on.

I know my form and tuning suck...but I'll continue to try to work through it. Just wish a coach was closer than 200 miles. Make that a good barebow coach.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Since the necromancy has been done and the body’s dug up and dancing:

I think we’ve seen a shift since 2015. There are several barebow shooters in the US who treat this seriously, and are just as intense as other disciplines. Demmer, Dillinger, Winkler, Oakley, Stonebraker, Smock, Martin, Gerard, Xie, Lyons, etc. 

You’ve seen scores go up considerably. I think we’re past the point where a 265 can be a winning round in a major event. 

The thing that I’m currently happy with is that barebow has done this without losing its fun or community. Some of these archers have gotten jaded, but any elitism seems to come from frustration that their advice is ignored in favor of nobodies who don’t actually know what they’re saying. 

I think some posters here can sympathize. 

The good news is: as far as is can tell, none of this has transferred to in-person interactions. People are still helpful face to face.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Since the necromancy has been done and the body’s dug up and dancing:
> 
> I think we’ve seen a shift since 2015. There are several barebow shooters in the US who treat this seriously, and are just as intense as other disciplines. Demmer, Dillinger, Winkler, Oakley, Stonebraker, Smock, Martin, Gerard, Xie, Lyons, etc.
> 
> ...


Well stated!

One thing I love about Barebow shooters is the sense of community... barebow people are generally friendly, helpful, and enjoy what they do. I hope the increase in popularity doesn't change that.

Reading Limbwalker's post 6 years ago, I can certainly understand why the "well-known coach" said what he said... back in the days, Barebow was seen as a step to get to Olympic recurve... So if that's the mindset you have as a coach, of course you would make the comment "I usually encourage them to "get serious" (his words) and put sights and a stabilizer on as soon as they can." Because they refused to see Barebow for what it is; a stand-alone discipline that many people can get into and enjoy, without the expense of a full OR setup. 

Times have changed, people can either update their mindset or live in the past.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

For me I have to say Kudos to Lancaster Archery and their out front total support of Barebow. I know other venues have it but for getting the message out to the general public none seem to do what they have done. Kudos again to all of the people who work to put that event on, feed us BB junkies what we are jonesin fpr-- and they don't need glitter and show girls to promote it... well done to the whole crew. Compound and Oly are fun to watch- but almost boring in that it is a missed X that loses the match- but BB wow who knows what is going to happen next with that next arrow..


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Lancaster giving BB a spot on the big stage definitely inspired me to try competing


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

woof156 said:


> For me I have to say Kudos to Lancaster Archery and their out front total support of Barebow. I know other venues have it but for getting the message out to the general public none seem to do what they have done. Kudos again to all of the people who work to put that event on, feed us BB junkies what we are jonesin fpr-- and they don't need glitter and show girls to promote it... well done to the whole crew. Compound and Oly are fun to watch- but almost boring in that it is a missed X that loses the match- but BB wow who knows what is going to happen next with that next arrow..


Fantastic observation. Thank you for including this comment. Rob K deserves so much credit for always supporting "serious" barebow archers and giving them the platform that he has.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

TomB said:


> Stupid me John. That's what I thought the job was for the past 21 years. Maybe one day I can become a "serious" coach.


Don't get down you coaches you...I'm BB all the way! Been seriously studying since 2017...last puzzle piece was drilling down INTO the "tuning"


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## maxpowerpc2000 (Apr 5, 2010)

Bear bow used to shoot with us at 70 meters. Fun to watch them shoot as it looks like something from Brave Heart. Even more fun seeing a bunch of people look for their arrows lol. Good time.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

limbwalker said:


> I spent a good 15 minutes trying to convince one young lady today that that coach was full of BS and that one could be perfectly "serious" in the barebow division. And in fact, many veteran archers view barebow as the most challenging, competitive form of target archery. She was not convinced, but mostly because she demonstrated a clear desire for quick on-target performance above a willingness to put in the time to work for her scores.


Sorry to drag this old post out of the closet but that statement struck me. I have coached some not tons but my first year I was with a bunch of people shooting at 18 m, no sights (essentially BB) but they were anchoring like OR shooters and have a dilly of time aiming at the target- with the arrow at that angle and no sight they were visually aiming way off target to even hit paper. I tried to get them to change to a more "reasonable" BB anchor and they just would not do it cause they were taught the OR way to begin with. As if everyone who is anyone wants to shoot OR.. Nothing wrong with OR for sure- it is as you say more BE oriented shooting if you use a sight. Sort of the recurve answer to the compound.. I guess some find the challenge of BB plainly more fun and interesting and yes more frustrating. 70 M is really not an option but there are some pretty decent 50 M shooters but it is BB and errant arrows abound. But I agree with the original post that OR is not the only way to learn to shoot a recuve nor IMO the way kids should be introduced to recurve shooting. Easier to go from BB to OR than the reverse....In BB the journey is much more interesting.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

maxpowerpc2000 said:


> Even more fun seeing a bunch of people look for their arrows lol. Good time.


Hey that is just part of the journey...


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

woof156 said:


> Sorry to drag this old post out of the closet but that statement struck me. I have coached some not tons but my first year I was with a bunch of people shooting at 18 m, no sights (essentially BB) but they were anchoring like OR shooters and have a dilly of time aiming at the target-


Personally, even as a barebow shooter, I do think teaching the Olympic anchor first has several benefits to any new recurve shooter, barebow or with a sight.

In the beginning, there are two bad habits I’m trying to break/prevent and one good habit that I’m trying to instill.

The first bad habit relates to grip and bow arm position. Anchor doesn’t relate to this. But the second bad habit is being afraid of the string. My barebow anchor can slap me in the nose if I collapse or have the wrong head position, which isn’t uncommon. But a basic anchor (string to tip of nose, top of hand under the jaw) is a good starting point. It’s easy to point out when someone isn’t doing it, at a glance, from either side. 

The good habit is having your shoulders down. This is super important because it prevents injury. A side of face anchor requires more understanding of alignment and where your shoulders are than a lower one. The under the chin anchor naturally keeps the draw shoulder lower.


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## Giantsnarf (Jul 29, 2015)

Caviat...I'm a professing Olympic Recurve addict.. BUT I'm also a coach. And for even more Irony on this theme. I present the below for discussion:
The NASP system (arguably the most successful archery in schools program) is strictly barebow only (though technically they use wheely Genesis bows). Meaning that we're teaching young students to shoot barebow competitively from middle school all the way through their senior year! AND THEN the other twist. Those who continue with archery into good college programs are suppose to transition to OR or Compound at some point PRIOR to going off to uni as competitive barebow support really dries up at the Collegiate level. We all know this isn't a linear transition (meaning that a student doesn't wait till NASP is over to get their gear and sights and stuff), but the point still remains. Likewise, even our initial archery training is basic barebow in USAA (3 under, bare bow, and aim down the arrow). Now I don't pretend to know what USAA's strategy for farming talent is. I've read (many times) the sticky on making the USAT (someday maybe!), but that's not a growth strategy. It's a weeding out method. I have to believe that NASP plays a role (though I don't know how big) in farming top talent from an early age. I've heard that Ms. Mackenzie Brown got her start in NASP (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I guess what I'm trying to say is that inadvertently, USAA and NASP have built a real base for BB archery in the US, and it seems they are overlooking this opportunity in talent AND program development. I could be very wrong. But out here in the field, things look very different than the board room in Colorado Springs. 

Personally, I absolutely prefer to have archers begin using a sightless, stabless bow. It forces a focus on the process, and it shows them that there's more to archery than aiming. Once they have a descent shot process then we start adding parts (plunger, then sight, then stabs). This also gives an opportunity to see how each of these additions change the shot process. But Ultimately, I want the archer to decide what discipline they choose to focus on. 

Scott


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## Coykoi (Jan 2, 2018)

I know my retort would have something along the lines of, “Yes you are right there is too much skill involved in bare bow for it to be taken seriously”.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Coykoi said:


> I know my retort would have something along the lines of, “Yes you are right there is too much skill involved in bare bow for it to be taken seriously”.


If I am remembering right Coach Vlog did a video about alignment, correcting Demmer's alignment toward an OA type of alignment. I am wondering what's that "much" you are talking about?
PS This type of comment makes no service to either side.


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## Coykoi (Jan 2, 2018)

Draven Olary said:


> If I am remembering right Coach Vlog did a video about alignment, correcting Demmer's alignment toward an OA type of alignment. I am wondering what's that "much" you are talking about?
> PS This type of comment makes no service to either side.


Your are right. It does little service. It would be more me trying to get to the coach to say why barebow is not a serious version of archery in a very tongue and cheek manner. 
Limbwalkers reaction was much more productive than mine would have been in the long run.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I just want to say how much I miss Tom Barker's input and what a loss it was for everyone in USArchery when he passed, whether they knew him or not.


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