# D-Loop or no D-Loop



## Aim4gold

I had a thread going on this a few weeks ago.
No real answers came out of it.
I'm all ears for more input


----------



## baller

*Stats so far...*

From two threads I have two answers...and we are 50/50 for rope or loop. Still not sure which way I will go....may try both and see what happens.


----------



## Aim4gold

I really wish that someone with a shooting machine had the time to investigate.
I may this winter when my “real job” slows down.


----------



## CR337

*Limb Saver*

Go to the Limb Saver site home page. In the lower right side is a menu with I think four slo-mo videos. One is specifically on a D-loops. You will see shots w/o d-loops. The nock slides down from the nocking point a good bit at the shot. With a d-loop there is no movement of the arrow.
However, some folks just do not like them. I fought a d-loop for years, then went to one and haven't looked back.


----------



## CHPro

> The nock slides down from the nocking point a good bit at the shot. With a d-loop there is no movement of the arrow.


Yep, that's why I'd recommend if you are going to use the rope on the release that you tie in nock sets both above and below the nock position and then anchor the release below the lower nock set. Problem with this method is that it means you need to move your peep height down a little farther and if like me with a fairly high anchor you may run into problems reaching longer distances. Best method I used to alleviate that, before switching to a d-loop, involved tying in a long lower nock set and then running the release rope over the lower nock set up tight against the nock. This allowed me to keep the peep height up a bit higher, keeps the nock from sliding down the bowstring at release and worked quite well.

Part of the reason I switched to a d-loop was because one of the releases I started using and liking was a Just Cuz that did not have a release rope option and had to be shot off a d-loop. Once I made this switch I just stuck with the d-loop for everything afterwards. Easy to set up and I've found different releases shot off a d-loop tend to impact more consistently so I can swap back and forth playing with other releases without it impacting my sight settings as radically.

>>------->


----------



## adam Guggisberg

*Lateral oscilation*



CHPro said:


> Yep, that's why I'd recommend if you are going to use the rope on the release that you tie in nock sets both above and below the nock position and then anchor the release below the lower nock set. Problem with this method is that it means you need to move your peep height down a little farther and if like me with a fairly high anchor you may run into problems reaching longer distances. Best method I used to alleviate that, before switching to a d-loop, involved tying in a long lower nock set and then running the release rope over the lower nock set up tight against the nock. This allowed me to keep the peep height up a bit higher, keeps the nock from sliding down the bowstring at release and worked quite well.
> 
> Part of the reason I switched to a d-loop was because one of the releases I started using and liking was a Just Cuz that did not have a release rope option and had to be shot off a d-loop. Once I made this switch I just stuck with the d-loop for everything afterwards. Easy to set up and I've found different releases shot off a d-loop tend to impact more consistently so I can swap back and forth playing with other releases without it impacting my sight settings as radically.
> 
> >>------->



I will add a tidbit to Jeff's great input here...

One effect that a release rope will have on a bowstring at the time of release that a D-loop will not is LATERAL TORQUE. These means that a release rope will somewhat mimic the effects of shooting with fingers which creates a lateral oscilation in the bowsting upon release.. This means that if you are leveraging a launcher type blade, you could run into tuning issues that you would not see with a D-loop due to the impact of the string oscilation upon release.. The effects of the string oscialation also typically require you to shoot a slightly stiffer arrow.. This scenario yields a slower overall setup due to the required stiffer spined arrows increased weight putting you at a slight overall disadvantage in regards to trajectory.

-Adam


----------



## r302

*D-Loops*



CR337 said:


> Go to the Limb Saver site home page. In the lower right side is a menu with I think four slo-mo videos. One is specifically on a D-loops. You will see shots w/o d-loops. The nock slides down from the nocking point a good bit at the shot. With a d-loop there is no movement of the arrow.
> However, some folks just do not like them. I fought a d-loop for years, then went to one and haven't looked back.



I saw the same image you saw of the arrow moving down the string during the shot, so I tied another (5 or 6 wraps) serving under the arrow to support the arrow like the D-Loop does, except using a rope release. r302


----------



## BigBore56

Shot a rope release for years, but just recently changed to D-loop. Bow tune is so much better. You can tell the difference in your paper tears.

I shot a Carter Chocolate Lite, and had a slight high left tear...could not get rid of it on my 09 Vantage Pro. Switched to a Stan SX-2 and it shot bulletholes. Must just be the difference between the swing open latch..one opens to the right, the other to the left.

Who would think? Little things matter a lot when you get over 300 fps.


----------



## a1shooter

*Intentions of asking about very topic*



adam Guggisberg said:


> I will add a tidbit to Jeff's great input here...
> 
> One effect that a release rope will have on a bowstring at the time of release that a D-loop will not is LATERAL TORQUE. These means that a release rope will somewhat mimic the effects of shooting with fingers which creates a lateral oscilation in the bowsting upon release.. This means that if you are leveraging a launcher type blade, you could run into tuning issues that you would not see with a D-loop due to the impact of the string oscilation upon release.. The effects of the string oscialation also typically require you to shoot a slightly stiffer arrow.. This scenario yields a slower overall setup due to the required stiffer spined arrows increased weight putting you at a slight overall disadvantage in regards to trajectory.
> 
> -Adam


Came here with intentions of asking about release rope vs. loop. Someone beat me to it.

So I will ask.

If I put on a long lower nock so release rope would ride on top of lower nock point and against bottom of nock and used a looser nock fit would I still have the problems of LATERAL TURQUE? Or is the idea of a looser nock fit a bad idea, and if it is, why , other than the obvious if it were too loose?

Thanks, 
Warren


----------



## a1shooter

*Watched video*



CR337 said:


> Go to the Limb Saver site home page. In the lower right side is a menu with I think four slo-mo videos. One is specifically on a D-loops. You will see shots w/o d-loops. The nock slides down from the nocking point a good bit at the shot. With a d-loop there is no movement of the arrow.
> However, some folks just do not like them. I fought a d-loop for years, then went to one and haven't looked back.


I watched the video. What I noticed is the nock sliding to the exact point on the string where the release had been located. This is where the < (bend) is in the string when at full draw.


----------



## Southern Boy

a1shooter said:


> I watched the video. What I noticed is the nock sliding to the exact point on the string where the release had been located. This is where the < (bend) is in the string when at full draw.


true but you cant tell me it will go to that same exact point every time


----------



## a1shooter

*nope*



GA HOYT said:


> true but you cant tell me it will go to that same exact point every time


Did not even come close to suggesting that it would do that. . Just said that that is what happened in the video. Plain to see that it slides right down into the < of the string. I certainly wouldn't count on it sliding to the same spot every time. It probably gets close to the same spot but close only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes.


----------



## adam Guggisberg

a1shooter said:


> Came here with intentions of asking about release rope vs. loop. Someone beat me to it.
> 
> So I will ask.
> 
> If I put on a long lower nock so release rope would ride on top of lower nock point and against bottom of nock and used a looser nock fit would I still have the problems of LATERAL TURQUE? Or is the idea of a looser nock fit a bad idea, and if it is, why , other than the obvious if it were too loose?
> 
> Thanks,
> Warren


Yes. The release rope is what causes the lateral oscilation. The bowstring will somewhat "move around" the release rope as it travels forward in order to move past the release rope. Very similar to the same effect that you get with a fingers release, but on a much smaller & more predicatable scale. 

Adding a small lower nock set will keep the nock from traveling down the bostring as in the video. 

-Adam


----------



## blueglide1

I have noticed and had problems with the rope under the arrow nock.I went this year to a Vantage pro, from a Hoyt Oasis.It was noproblem at all with the 47in axle bow to rope underneath the nock.Now with the shorter axle bow,the tremendous up pressure on the nock from my rope tends to slide the nock point up the serving thus everything slowly shoots low after awhile.I have tried numerous ways to get the nock to stay put.nothing seemed to work. Now I am trying to put a small D-Loop under the nock to get the same fell as a release rope under.I tried it last night in my shop and its a little different but not enough to make me go back to the rope on the release.My scores have suffered from being to bullheaded to finally give up my old ways.


----------



## field14

Unfortunately, I was "in my prime" and shooting my personal best scores before d-loops became the fancy in the game.

I shot with a brass nock-set that, once set properly, was "locked in" with glue soaked dental floss wrap-tied above the brass nok-set. Once tied off, I soaked it again in Fletch-tite glue rubbed it around with my fingers to smooth it out, and then lit it with a lighter for a few seconds and rubbed it again with my fingers. That floss at that point did NOT MOVE unless I chose to move it by cutting it off.

Under the nock, I used a single eliminator button, which pretty much stopped much (there was some) sliding of the nock down the string when I launched the arrow. I kept 3 eliminator buttons on the bowstring, but two were "spares" just in case the primary split or something. Know what? I NEVER ONCE had to use the "spare" eliminator buttons. At the time, I was shooting 7 days a week and a lot of arrows during each practice session.

ALL of my lifetime personal best scores, among them 557 field and hunter, and numerous 60X NFAA 5-spot indoor rounds and numerous Vegas 300's and perfect 450 indoor rounds....were shot with this brass nok-set and eliminator button combination.

One thing for sure....If you are shooting rope around the string...don't try to use PIN NOCKS....the nock slot is designed for d-loop shooting and won't stay on the string; especially with today's super short ata bows. G-nocks work just fine.

One other thing...you can go from rope around the string to a d-loop WITHOUT changing your anchor or drawlength...All you have to do is make absolutely certain that the distance from the edge of your knuckle to the outer edge of the bow-string is the same when you change one way or the other. Do this by adjusting rope length or d-loop length to match this important distance. If you don't, you'll be thinking your drawlength has changed, when in reality, you've changed the "length" of the distance from knuckle to string, resulting in the change in your anchor point forward or back, thus coming into anchor "early" or "late" and at a different distance.

I only wish I hadn't had the health problems and lost the "edge." It would be nice to be able now to hold and execute the shot like I could then...and I'd run a REAL comparision and find out for myself which is supposedly 'better' for me. That, however is impossible.

field14


----------



## zenarch

baller said:


> I have been shooting a target release for many years and have noticed many of my fellow shooters who used to use a rope on their release switching to a D-Loop. What do you use....why....pros....cons....thoughts????
> 
> 
> I have used a D-loop in the past when I used a wrist sling release and am not opposed to the idea.


The rope worked fine with the older, longer bows and many great scores were shot that way. The loop is better with the shorter a to a bows and has the advantage of not wearing out your serving and also keeping your peep aligned. I tried to go back to the rope but it kept slapping my face, which I didn't enjoy.
If you use a standard hinge release like my Zenith you'll find you'll get much quicker reaction out of the release by using a rope on the release. Hinges tend to load up with a d loop and if you use a clicker on the release it will need to have a shorter travel to feel comfortable.
Joe B.


----------



## FS560

Although I do currently use a D-loop with a hinge trigger (Zenith), I really prefer the feel of the trigger with a rope attached to reduce the load on the dump.

Loop to loop really works great but will increase the secondary draw dimension (knuckle to string) to the point that you will not be able to shoot very well at all, especially with the short bows today. Maybe I should get out one of my old Bear Tamerlanes at 56 inch A to A. Yeah, right!

It is important to remember that all hinge triggers are not the same dimensions and will have a different feel of the load.

I shot springy rest for years and then some and preferred the slight paradox of the arrow for increased clearance around the tip of the spring. We tried D-loops in 1971 and found them to not work well with the shoot around rests that we had then. We did not have the shoot over rests of today.

The combination of D-loop and shoot through cables with no cable guard torque allows a significantly weaker spined arrow shaft due to reduced side loading of the unsupported arrow column. I am still playing with this to find just how weak is optimum.

Too bad I cannot shoot as well as I used to be able to.


----------



## zenarch

FS560 said:


> Although I do currently use a D-loop with a hinge trigger (Zenith), I really prefer the feel of the trigger with a rope attached to reduce the load on the dump.
> 
> Loop to loop really works great but will increase the secondary draw dimension (knuckle to string) to the point that you will not be able to shoot very well at all, especially with the short bows today. Maybe I should get out one of my old Bear Tamerlanes at 56 inch A to A. Yeah, right!
> 
> It is important to remember that all hinge triggers are not the same dimensions and will have a different feel of the load.
> 
> I shot springy rest for years and then some and preferred the slight paradox of the arrow for increased clearance around the tip of the spring. We tried D-loops in 1971 and found them to not work well with the shoot around rests that we had then. We did not have the shoot over rests of today.
> 
> The combination of D-loop and shoot through cables with no cable guard torque allows a significantly weaker spined arrow shaft due to reduced side loading of the unsupported arrow column. I am still playing with this to find just how weak is optimum.
> 
> Too bad I cannot shoot as well as I used to be able to.


Jim,
I know the feeling. When you can't shoot well, ala Cousins, etc., testing shafts, d-loop hook ups and other tuning tricks is tough, if not impossible. I was testing point weights yesterday by shooting two sets of arrows at two separate targets. The results? Who knows. Neither group was what I'd hoped for, because I just can't shoot that well anymore. 
Joe B.


----------



## Aim4gold

zenarch said:


> just can't shoot that well anymore.
> Joe B.


Maybe you should consider building/buying a shooting machine?? Would allow the testing without additional body wear.


----------



## field14

FS560 said:


> Although I do currently use a D-loop with a hinge trigger (Zenith), I really prefer the feel of the trigger with a rope attached to reduce the load on the dump.
> 
> Loop to loop really works great but will increase the secondary draw dimension (knuckle to string) to the point that you will not be able to shoot very well at all, especially with the short bows today. Maybe I should get out one of my old Bear Tamerlanes at 56 inch A to A. Yeah, right!
> 
> It is important to remember that all hinge triggers are not the same dimensions and will have a different feel of the load.
> 
> I shot springy rest for years and then some and preferred the slight paradox of the arrow for increased clearance around the tip of the spring. We tried D-loops in 1971 and found them to not work well with the shoot around rests that we had then. We did not have the shoot over rests of today.
> 
> The combination of D-loop and shoot through cables with no cable guard torque allows a significantly weaker spined arrow shaft due to reduced side loading of the unsupported arrow column. I am still playing with this to find just how weak is optimum.
> 
> Too bad I cannot shoot as well as I used to be able to.


Jim,
Didn't the first orginal Pacesetter I launcher blade made out of plastic come out in around 1973 or 1974? Remember those...Gosh did I shoot some great field scores with them! 

Then I switched to a MatchII arrow rest with a Berger button and really did well with that rest. I still have 2 or 3 MatchII arrows rests, in fact...but can't see a need for them. They just sit in the drawer. I made my own support arms from varying sizes of safety pins and bent them to work and bolted them in place instead of the rivet used on the originals.

Then, I went with the 10 oz BPE springie rest, of which I probably have a couple dozen of; just don't want to take the time to try to tune in a springie, when the "band-aid" fallaways are working well.

Like you, I sure wish I was in my prime now that we have such great string materials and arrow shafting to work with!

Too bad your DL is longer than mine...I wouldn't mind trying the old Bear TamerlaneII compound with 56" ATA....and that enormous letoff that they had, hahaha. Loved those Tamerlanes!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## bowjoe1800

When you use a d-loop with a back tension release like the Zenith, A Stan, or even the Carter solutions, you are putting twice the amount of pressure on the head compared to the rope on the release. I get a much smoother and easier shot execution with the rope on the release. I also tie a nock on under the arrow nock.


----------



## FS560

field14 said:


> Jim,
> Didn't the first orginal Pacesetter I launcher blade made out of plastic come out in around 1973 or 1974? Remember those...Gosh did I shoot some great field scores with them!
> 
> Then I switched to a MatchII arrow rest with a Berger button and really did well with that rest. I still have 2 or 3 MatchII arrows rests, in fact...but can't see a need for them. They just sit in the drawer. I made my own support arms from varying sizes of safety pins and bent them to work and bolted them in place instead of the rivet used on the originals.
> 
> Then, I went with the 10 oz BPE springie rest, of which I probably have a couple dozen of; just don't want to take the time to try to tune in a springie, when the "band-aid" fallaways are working well.
> 
> Like you, I sure wish I was in my prime now that we have such great string materials and arrow shafting to work with!
> 
> Too bad your DL is longer than mine...I wouldn't mind trying the old Bear TamerlaneII compound with 56" ATA....and that enormous letoff that they had, hahaha. Loved those Tamerlanes!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)




Yeah Tom, those were the days..........18% letoff, 98 fps, and little oxygen masks on the arrows.


----------



## Archerone

field14 said:


> Unfortunately, I was "in my prime" and shooting my personal best scores before d-loops became the fancy in the game.
> 
> I shot with a brass nock-set that, once set properly, was "locked in" with glue soaked dental floss wrap-tied above the brass nok-set. Once tied off, I soaked it again in Fletch-tite glue rubbed it around with my fingers to smooth it out, and then lit it with a lighter for a few seconds and rubbed it again with my fingers. That floss at that point did NOT MOVE unless I chose to move it by cutting it off.
> 
> Under the nock, I used a single eliminator button, which pretty much stopped much (there was some) sliding of the nock down the string when I launched the arrow. I kept 3 eliminator buttons on the bowstring, but two were "spares" just in case the primary split or something. Know what? I NEVER ONCE had to use the "spare" eliminator buttons. At the time, I was shooting 7 days a week and a lot of arrows during each practice session.
> 
> field14


We used this same set-up with the eliminator buttons with my daughter's bow. What was nice was if the button that was being used started getting loose meant that something changed on the bow. At that time it was usually the cam timing (Fast Flite stretch). I pre-stretched the string and cables so it was rare. We also used one arrow size spined stiff in our set-up. I saw that we had less percent of flyers and better grouping by experience. Two World Championships, Vegas Championship, and many records.


----------



## tackle123

I find when I use the d-loop that the release is twisting it so bad the I can't rotate the release enough without the d-loop coming off the pin in my release (tru ball) so I have kept the rope but it does ware on my serving.


----------



## Josh_Putman

This is how I tie my loops when using a spring steel rest. I have found my accuracy is slightly better using this method. I am just wondering how common it is. I learned this method about four or five years ago, and at the time I was told there were a lot of Pro's using it.


----------



## blueglide1

Josh the picture you posted is the same thing I just went to about a month ago.The only diff is my knots on the D-loop are smack against each ohter.It works great.Feels just like my rope under felt before the switch.Now everything stays were it should.


----------

