# Just not fair!!!!!!!!!



## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm 48 yrs young,and my eye's aren't what they used to be probably,but I don't need glasses or anything yet. I've shot all my life,but just been into 3D the last couple of years and have gotten addicted to it. I was just wandering why the high point ring couldn't be colored,because it's not fair that better eye's can see it when older ones can't?I stand at 30yds and can't see ring when other's can,and since the ring isn't always where {by vitals}it should be and not all targets follow same placement of rings it just ain't fair cause I can't hit what I can't see,if I could see it I could hit it,so my score is predicted by my guess where the ring is,when others isn't.Just seems like shooting should be about hitting the target you see;not the target you have memorized or can see better than others. I mean it is a SHOOTING contest.I know there's field archery,spots,etc,but it's still about about hitting your mark{not where you "think"it is}.I know it is what it is,but I'm just throwing that thought out there to see what others think......Just blows to get beat{often times} by better eyes or memory than by better shot.:box:


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## bowhunter153246 (Jul 17, 2009)

As far as memorizing ring placement on different targets, I do not see where one person has an advantage over another. The guy that puts in the time to study the targets and their characteristics is just putting in practice time needed to be successful at the game of 3D archery. The ones that win on a regular basis at 3D are not always the best marksmen. They are the best at 3D. Its kinda like the guy that spends time practicing distance judging more than anyone else. Even though he might not be the best shot in his class, he will most likely shoot better than the guys that do nothing but practice shooting their bows. 3D has several aspects that affect ones score. One must practice all of these aspects in order to be the best. I know several guys that are great indoor spot shooters. I can not come close to touching their scores. But they do not judge distance as well and I usually win against them in 3D. Are they better shots than me? Of course they are! But I love shooting unknown distance 3D. So thats what I practice for.

As far as eye sight goes. I can understand what you mean. It could present itself as an advantage for some and disadvantage for others. I think organizations have made it more fair by creating classes based on age groups. (senior, super senior, etc...) But if you color the rings, its no longer 3D archery. Its spot shooting at unknown distances. Not trying to argue with you. I have not struggled with vision problems....yet. Im sure I will sooner or later. But it doesn't mean you can't beat those guys with better eye sight. Just means you have to work harder for it than they do. Good luck this upcoming season


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

3d is a lot different than other archery disciplines. In order to excel in 3d a lot of time must be spent learning the targets. I am in the same boat as you with eyes not as good as others but I make sure I spend time at each target glassing prior to choosing my aiming spot. There is almost always anomalies on the target like a rough spot, a marking, arrow hole etc that you can use as reference points. Make sure you have good optics and spend a little extra time analyzing - this is just a part of the 3d game. It is a SHOOTING contest but it definitely has other aspects that competitiors need to be able to master like judging yardage. It is a multidimensional game and that is what draws us to addiction. It is definitely not a spot shoot and given time you will learn the targets well enough that you will know inherently where to aim and then glassing just fine tunes the spot. It is a game that can take years to master and beleive me when you do you will understand and appreciate the extreme amount of time that it takes to do so. With that said the NFAA holds shoots each year that have a big red circle on the 3ds that mark the inner scoring ring. Some clubs hold these shoots to prepare their shooters for the big events and you should talk to your club about doing so.


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## AndyVandy (May 9, 2009)

This kind of makes me laugh because I have been told all my life by people older than I am(34); "Life isn't fair, get used to it." I had a 4-H kid that was complaining about the same thing you have mentioned so I do not think it is just an age thing. Part of the "fun" of 3-D is seeing and remembering where to hit. To me, and maybe to me alone, 3-D needs to be unmarked yardage at "unmarked" targets. The place I get to shoot 3-D has a few targets that have a spot of spray paint on them. That's cool, it's their place and their targets but I wish they were not marked. Maybe try field archery. Nice clear target, some marked yardage and some unmarked. Maybe it would get you back on track toward doing what you should be doing... reminding young folks that life isn't fair!


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

bowhunter you must have been reading my mind as I was typing and you beat me to the punch!


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## bowhunter153246 (Jul 17, 2009)

yeah, I noticed that. Usually I am by myself when it comes to opinions on here. Glad to know someone else shares the same view as I do every once in a while.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I agree. It is just part of it.


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## bucks/bulls (May 23, 2010)

If a varifier/clarifier is legal to use in your class,buy one and problem solved...


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## Skeeterbait (Feb 13, 2009)

I shoot pins and started using a Varifier (pink for my eyes) and the Pro peep housing from Speciality Archery after I noticed my arms getting shorter as I got older


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Some how I got this feeling you don't use binoculars. I'm probably wrong, but a good set of binoculars can make things better. I use 10X48 or 10X50. Memory is one thing, but glassing the target and seeing where the rings are, marks, shadows or tree branches or weeds can help point the way. If using a lens a clarifier can help clean up the target, but then you need a real good standout fiber optic pin.


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

I am your age and had to wear glasses all my life. Binos are key, but there is no short cuts for time looking and judging targets. See I used to worry about the young guns... and still itch about it in fun. But they don't have the years of looking at targets in different settings and lighting that I do. Hard to fool this old fool now, but it has been know to happen.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

im 47 and and also dont need classes but i do shoot open class .try a six power lense with a green or yellow classifier.most the time i can see the 12 rings at 40 yards depends on the light and shadows.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks all,I do use bino's ,but then I can't see what I saw when I shoot,guess I'll try lenses;most shoots{clubs}around here don't have rings that are easy to identify either from being lightly branded,branded over,or just shot to heck;so all I can do is just shoot "in amongst'em",and I don't pencil cheat,so I just got to where I didn't keep score,just shoot to get better and for all the fun I have and the relaxation it yields me.Quite honestly,out to forty yards I can easily hit a 2 or 3 in ring and am very good at distance guesstimation,30 and under a dime or nickle is no problem,but then I'm shootin IBO not ASA......Don't get me wrong,I'm not complaining, cause I love shootin,just saying that I can hit an animals heart{and being a 30 yr full time world wide species taxidermist I know where the hearts are on about any animal out there}but the 10 or 12 ring ain't where the heart is usually,or lungs either alot of the time.........BUT,I sure do love this game any way you slice it!!!!!!!!!:RockOn:


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## JAG (May 23, 2006)

i have good vision, but old eyes as well...... looks like we will be in the sr. class before long.


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## McStamper (Feb 25, 2009)

Jag, I shoot in the FSR class, but have only gone to one shoot that actually had green stakes. Once the eyes go 5 yards don't seem to make much difference.


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## mdarton (Jan 11, 2008)

3d should be scored, kill or no kill, period! If you want to shoot dots outside, nail a target to a tree. No binocs should be allowed and 10 second limit after taking post. Not even bowhunter class is remotely compared to hunting. Play golf instead of *******izing bowhunting.


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## mdarton (Jan 11, 2008)

mdarton said:


> 3d should be scored, kill or no kill, period! If you want to shoot dots outside, nail a target to a tree. No binocs should be allowed and 10 second limit after taking post. Not even bowhunter class is remotely compared to hunting. Play golf instead of *******izing bowhunting.


Sorry I had to use a word that got *******ed out. The only word in the English language that fit. Not meant to be vulgar.


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## gymrat70 (Apr 13, 2006)

mdarton said:


> 3d should be scored, kill or no kill, period! If you want to shoot dots outside, nail a target to a tree. No binocs should be allowed and 10 second limit after taking post. Not even bowhunter class is remotely compared to hunting. Play golf instead of *******izing bowhunting.


That's a good idea for the bowhunting class. The flaw is there would be no way to score it. It would kind of be up to the group to score it a kill or no kill. You would open up a can of worms. For example suppose I shot too far back, a gut shot. In real life the animal would most likely die...eventually so some would argue that should be scored a kill. Another point considering scoring is your going to have the majority show up with all kills so how do you decide who won? You have to have some form of points system to determine a winner. What your describing would be a blast for a novel shoot. I used to get together with some friends for a little tough man shooting. We would start out and determine the shooting order. At the first target the first shooter can shoot from anywhere he wants and the rest must follow...Kinda like shooting HORSE in basketball only with bows. We would be shooting through laurals, tree forks, you name it. Lots of fun.

To the OP you can find pictures and other information about the targets used in 3D online along with where the rings are. A buddy of mine printed them off and made cards to take with him so when he approached a target he flipped to the card and could see the rings. You might give that a try.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

How about this for scoring;10pts-kill shot{2 hour death or less}/ 0-pts complete miss/ negative 10pts-over 2hr death or non lethal hit. Would cut the bickering about kill or not down to a bare min. or none at all if elaberated on prior to shooting.Have to admit,it would be fun:call it the "Shoot-up or Shut-up Challenge".


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Simple way to do it like we do at our first outdoor 3-D of the year. 10,8 -5.


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## mdarton (Jan 11, 2008)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Simple way to do it like we do at our first outdoor 3-D of the year. 10,8 -5.


When I do shoot 3D I try to keep my head down until I reach the stake. I look up, try to judge distance in a couple seconds, draw and shoot. I try to keep it as close to a hunting scenario as possible. Success for me is a heart or lung shot (kill), anything else is no kill. Spots mean nothing to me, Im just trying to make myself a better hunter. Binoculars (to find the spot), way too much time, 4 ft stabs, umbrellas, and bowling shirts dont make me a better hunter.


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

I'm sorry, but really???? Life isn't fair. We all can't have 20-10 vision. There are ways to compete at a high level with poor vision but one of the primary and most necessary skills/abilities for shooting is vision. If you don't have it, you don't have it. Take up golf or something that doesn't require good vision instead of whinning about fairness.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> Some how I got this feeling you don't use binoculars. I'm probably wrong, but a good set of binoculars can make things better. I use 10X48 or 10X50. Memory is one thing, but glassing the target and seeing where the rings are, marks, shadows or tree branches or weeds can help point the way. If using a lens a clarifier can help clean up the target, but then you need a real good standout fiber optic pin.


 yeah, but then them old geezers keep lookin and lookin and you finally realize they ain't lookin...they're sleepin'. seen it happen dozens of times.


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## mdarton (Jan 11, 2008)

bustn'nocks said:


> I'm sorry, but really???? Life isn't fair. We all can't have 20-10 vision. There are ways to compete at a high level with poor vision but one of the primary and most necessary skills/abilities for shooting is vision. If you don't have it, you don't have it. Take up golf or something that doesn't require good vision instead of whinning about fairness.


I can be a little rude, but thats LOW!


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

3d is good practice for hunting but really it is totally two diffident sports,any one can shoot a deer at 10 yards butt to hit a 12 or 14 at 45 yards to win a turn that rocks.to shoot a 300 hundred with 60 x is great.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

bustn'nocks said:


> I'm sorry, but really???? Life isn't fair. We all can't have 20-10 vision. There are ways to compete at a high level with poor vision but one of the primary and most necessary skills/abilities for shooting is vision. If you don't have it, you don't have it. Take up golf or something that doesn't require good vision instead of whinning about fairness.


 You all are missing my point:I can see pretty good,could be better, but not to bad yet,my point is this ;3D is still shooting at a small{1 to 2in}target,fundamentally no different than 5 spot,vegas or field archery,only difference is wooded or terrain challenging courses at unknown distances so why couldn't the ring at least be visible to all, with legal eyesight{99% of those I've watched can't see the ring at 30 or so yds even with excellent vision} but ALL could if it was just "any" different color;no need for bino's,lenses,mentally marking or memorizing targets,just plain straight up good shooting{could still have same categories based on type of stabs,sights,release,equipment,etc}just eliminate the eyesight element out of all classes in general.I'm not saying it would be perfect,but it MIGHT be better overall..........{shouldn't have to have lasik eye surgery,special glasses or any vision enhancing product of any kind to compete fairly with anyone regardless of eye quality whether your 18 or 58;it's not an eye contest,it's a target shooting contest,ie killing foam instead of tied up live animals} If you want to spend tons of coin to enhance your shooting experience,great;just don't make it about vision augmentation of any kind to see the actual target{ring},nothing wrong with using it to see it bigger or to exaggerate pin movement for more precise aiming.If we cant do this,then why not take out the rings altogether and in there place apply the actual organs per species in various colors
and score from that; with cheap replaceable self-adhesive printouts of organs??If we did this it wouldn't matter which brand of targets a club used,the adhesive printout would be univeral,position or attitude of target doesn't change general location of vital organs.All this babbling is just some of my thoughts and observations.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

D.Short said:


> You all are missing my point:I can see pretty good,could be better, but not to bad yet,my point is this ;3D is still shooting at a small{1 to 2in}target,fundamentally no different than 5 spot,vegas or field archery,only difference is wooded or terrain challenging courses at unknown distances so why couldn't the ring at least be visible to all, with legal eyesight QUOTE]
> 
> I think you're missing the point. 3D is 3D and a competitive sport. You practice, practice and practice. You learn where the point zones are. Any given target has some point of reference. No one with even perfect eyesight can see the 14 or 12 ring on ASA targets at 40 yards, but they sure hammer those point rings.
> I'm 61 years old, need glasses to read, need bifocals of varying power to equal my eyes for reading and then have magnification in the upper right to equal my left eye. On top of that I am left handed, left eye dominant, and shoot right handed. I still hold my own, even against the "kids." I practice.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Simple way to do it like we do at our first outdoor 3-D of the year. 10,8 -5.


That shoot kicks my rear every year.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> I'm 61 years old, need glasses to read, need bifocals of varying power to equal my eyes for reading and then have magnification in the upper right to equal my left eye. On top of that I am left handed, left eye dominant, and shoot right handed. I still hold my own, even against the "kids." I practice.


Here's to the man who never does anything the easy way! Left eye...left hand...shooting right! Hoist one for Sonny!epsi::darkbeer:
(The Pepsi is for the teetottlers.:wink


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## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

mdarton said:


> I can be a little rude, but thats LOW!


What the OP was suggesting is akin to a Casey Martin suing so he could use a cart in PGA Tour events. He didn't have the necessary tools to compete with the rest of the guys on the PGA Tour so he sued to be able to use a cart. It's garbage really. If you have ever played golf for 5 and six days straight (which is what a tour player usually does for an event), no matter how physicaly fit you may be your legs are wore out after a couple days. Using your legs in the golf swing is a critical part of hitting a golf ball. If you don't have the legs you shouldn't be able to compete. Martin should have taken up bass fishing and gone out on the FLW Tour. Is the OP suing to change the rules of the sport, no. What the OP is suggesting is no different than Martin suggesting to the PGA Tour that he needed a cart to compete.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bustn'nocks said:


> what the op was suggesting is akin to a casey martin suing so he could use a cart in pga tour events. He didn't have the necessary tools to compete with the rest of the guys on the pga tour so he sued to be able to use a cart. It's garbage really. If you have ever played golf for 5 and six days straight (which is what a tour player usually does for an event), no matter how physicaly fit you may be your legs are wore out after a couple days. Using your legs in the golf swing is a critical part of hitting a golf ball. If you don't have the legs you shouldn't be able to compete. Martin should have taken up bass fishing and gone out on the flw tour. Is the op suing to change the rules of the sport, no. What the op is suggesting is no different than martin suggesting to the pga tour that he needed a cart to compete.


exactly


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## mdarton (Jan 11, 2008)

bustn'nocks said:


> What the OP was suggesting is akin to a Casey Martin suing so he could use a cart in PGA Tour events. He didn't have the necessary tools to compete with the rest of the guys on the PGA Tour so he sued to be able to use a cart. It's garbage really. If you have ever played golf for 5 and six days straight (which is what a tour player usually does for an event), no matter how physicaly fit you may be your legs are wore out after a couple days. Using your legs in the golf swing is a critical part of hitting a golf ball. If you don't have the legs you shouldn't be able to compete. Martin should have taken up bass fishing and gone out on the FLW Tour. Is the OP suing to change the rules of the sport, no. What the OP is suggesting is no different than Martin suggesting to the PGA Tour that he needed a cart to compete.


No, that was a personal attack!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bustn'nocks said:


> I'm sorry, but really???? Life isn't fair. We all can't have 20-10 vision. There are ways to compete at a high level with poor vision but one of the primary and most necessary skills/abilities for shooting is vision. If you don't have it, you don't have it. Take up golf or something that doesn't require good vision instead of whinning about fairness.





mdarton said:


> I can be a little rude, but thats LOW!





bustn'nocks said:


> What the OP was suggesting is akin to a Casey Martin suing so he could use a cart in PGA Tour events. He didn't have the necessary tools to compete with the rest of the guys on the PGA Tour so he sued to be able to use a cart. It's garbage really. If you have ever played golf for 5 and six days straight (which is what a tour player usually does for an event), no matter how physicaly fit you may be your legs are wore out after a couple days. Using your legs in the golf swing is a critical part of hitting a golf ball. If you don't have the legs you shouldn't be able to compete. Martin should have taken up bass fishing and gone out on the FLW Tour. Is the OP suing to change the rules of the sport, no. What the OP is suggesting is no different than Martin suggesting to the PGA Tour that he needed a cart to compete.





mdarton said:


> No, that was a personal attack!


Personal attack? No. He got what he asked for. If someone has a problem they should seek help, not whine about making changes to overcome their short comings.

I feel enough information has been given in this thread to help the OP on his way. I hope he uses it and improves his game.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

Well,bless your heart!


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## Schpankme (Dec 6, 2010)

D.Short said:


> ... I'm 48 yrs young,and my eye's aren't what they used to be probably,but I don't need glasses or anything yet.
> ... I've shot all my life,but just been into 3D the last couple of years and have gotten addicted to it.
> ... I was just wandering why the high point ring couldn't be colored,because it's not fair that better eye's can see it when older ones can't?
> ... I stand at 30yds and can't see ring when other's can
> ... I can't hit what I can't see



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