# Cheater caught ASA Foley/ classic



## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

I shared my experience on FB.

Please feel free to share
*_Attention ASA Shooters and Friends *_
At the last National event this year ASA Foley Event I encountered and called out a cheater I'm my group. Long read so please I apologise in advance.

The cheater involved. Changed his scores on both days. How he got new score cards I do not know. ( We think since it rained both rounds he asked for new cards) He did collect everyone's cards at the end and was responsible for turning them in ( he kept officials, I kept unofficial). I found his scores after being posted were considerably higher then what he shot. Which landed him in the top 5 or 6.

His scores were supposed to be like 204 and ,194. (194 round I 100% know. As he shot a zero that round and asked the group if he could reshoot it. We did not let him) His posted scores on the ASA scores page were 216 and 218. I kept his score both round and knew they were not right. I asked the ASA to look into it, in which they sent me pictures if his score cards and mine ( to compare signatures). My signature did not match even a little bit.(pics attached) or the initials on back did not my atch either.

Further more if you add the scores up on his cards, both of them are wrong..yes both! Ha!

I also provided my unofficial card as well as another shooter on my stake. (I did not know this other shooter so I looked him up on FB and attached the pic.) to show ASA, that the way said cheater rewrote the running total, was not how I personally write it when keeping score.

ASA contacted cheater. Asked them what scores he shot. He responded. 204 and 194. When asked how score cards got turned in with his signature with much higher scores his reply was..."I don't know"

I was told he would be getting zeros for both rounds and it would be going to competition committee..

Fast forward to this week. I inquired to what the outcome of the matter was. And there reply was, "zeros for both rounds and a letter of unsportsman like conduct".

A letter...? Well I guess I'll see ya on the trails next year zachary Hamilton. Good to know he'll still be out there cheating among us.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Oops. That guy who used range finder binos in semi-pro was a bit slicker. That was a few years back.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I am a spot shooter that has been thinking of trying 3D. Only shot one 3D in my life and we only used one score card per person and one guy kept score with all the cards. Thus allowing the one person that handled the cards to do anything he wanted and no one would be the wiser. As this was only a state shoot, I was disappointed but thought that things would be handles far more professionally at major 3D events. Cheating at any tournament is a problem and rules should make it impossible for anyone to cheat. 

At even the smallest spot shoot, two score cards are used for each archer and scored by two different score keepers. Both cards are turned in together and both cards must match. Extra card is then given back to the archer. From hat you wrote, I assume that the second card was not turned it to verify the first card.

Is it true that at a major National 3D tournament that only one card per person and scored by only one person is turned in? If this is the way it is done, then I would say that there probably is a lot more cheating than you realize.


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## ArrowStar1 (Jun 10, 2008)

I shot with a guy several years ago in the Senior Open class. He kept 1 set of scores on day one and I kept the other set. He had himself up 6 points more than I had him for but the other 3 shooters in our groups scores matched.
The second day I wouldn’t keep score because I knew he was cheating. Agter the second day he had 4 more points for himself than the other score keeper had for him. The rest of the group went to the range official and told him what happened both days. We were told that the “benefit of the doubt “ goes to the shooter. We all knew he cheated and to this day he won’t look me in the eye at a ASA Tournament because he knows that I know he’s a cheater.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

huteson2us2 said:


> I am a spot shooter that has been thinking of trying 3D. Only shot one 3D in my life and we only used one score card per person and one guy kept score with all the cards. Thus allowing the one person that handled the cards to do anything he wanted and no one would be the wiser. As this was only a state shoot, I was disappointed but thought that things would be handles far more professionally at major 3D events. Cheating at any tournament is a problem and rules should make it impossible for anyone to cheat.
> 
> At even the smallest spot shoot, two score cards are used for each archer and scored by two different score keepers. Both cards are turned in together and both cards must match. Extra card is then given back to the archer. From hat you wrote, I assume that the second card was not turned it to verify the first card.
> 
> Is it true that at a major National 3D tournament that only one card per person and scored by only one person is turned in? If this is the way it is done, then I would say that there probably is a lot more cheating than you realize.


 2 score cards are scored. Only one turned into range official the other is the shooters copy. The guy cheating agreed to turn in all the cards for the grouo. Which is not uncommon. But we should have verified he went straight to the range official to actually turn in the cards. Lesson learned.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

I don't understand why people try to pull this off.... If you suck and have to cheat to get to the shoot-off.... won't everyone know you suck by the end of the shoot-off???

We have a county wide 3D league with sponsorships and some pretty great prizes. (Open Class got a $1000 Gift Certificate to the local bow shop for 1st place this year) My buddies and I were on the course and we watched a guy shoot 2 arrows in the dirt (it wasn't even a double target stake). But, on his score card he wrote 12's. (we know this because one of the guys with me was the guy who entered/maintained "scoreboard".... Even though the rest of the scores were "suspect" the league allowed him to shoot in the shoot-offs.... His average was something like 18 up for the entire summer, then he shoots the finals and turns in a scorecard 30 down....


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> I don't understand why people try to pull this off.... If you suck and have to cheat to get to the shoot-off.... won't everyone know you suck by the end of the shoot-off???
> 
> We have a county wide 3D league with sponsorships and some pretty great prizes. (Open Class got a $1000 Gift Certificate to the local bow shop for 1st place this year) My buddies and I were on the course and we watched a guy shoot 2 arrows in the dirt (it wasn't even a double target stake). But, on his score card he wrote 12's. (we know this because one of the guys with me was the guy who entered/maintained "scoreboard".... Even though the rest of the scores were "suspect" the league allowed him to shoot in the shoot-offs.... His average was something like 18 up for the entire summer, then he shoots the finals and turns in a scorecard 30 down....


That's how it is here. We have a couple local series and all year...guys post 30+ ups all year...then the season finale, peer group they shoot down...derrrrr


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## mscott327 (Nov 21, 2019)

In other shooting disciplines, mainly gun competitions, All scoring has gone to digital format. Cheating was prevalent and still happens occasionally at level 2 and level 3 matches. The software program logs all edits and score changes behind the scenes. Cheaters are caught and punished. I think handwritten scoring is becoming archaic. I'm not familiar with Bowscore, but it appears similar to Practiscore. (for gun competition) 
It's really a shame that people have to resort to cheating. He needs to receive a lifetime ban! *Winners never cheat and cheaters never win!*


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Not cool


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## colegrp (Feb 26, 2015)

I just got back from the NFAA Marked 3D National Championships, and they went to digital scoring. One person in the squad entered scores on their mobile device, and another person kept a paper scorecard. Then at the end of the event they had to match. I think it helps cut down on cheating, but I still saw several cases of people trying to cheat one way or another.


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## bowglo (Jul 16, 2019)

I shot and keep score at Cullman this year a guy i shot with shot a 193 i let him turn in score cards this was second day i checked scores when i got home his 193 turned in to 198 if i shoot with him again i will keep check on him makes no sense why people want cheat


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## Broncman (Jul 14, 2020)

In USPSA, we have had practiscore scores altered by the person collecting the tablets. He was deleting his scores when he shot bad. It skews the percentage of others scores.

He now has a lifetime perma ban.


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

It should be a no brainer to check running scores every few targets that way if there is a hick up or cheating you catch it early and don't even make it to the point that the cards get turned in that way! We have always done it this way and it eliminates problems cheating always but shows who's not great at math!! LOL


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## TimberGhost74 (Nov 22, 2016)

ArrowStar1 said:


> We were told that the “benefit of the doubt “ goes to the shooter.


Interesting. Everywhere I have ever shot, if there is a difference in the score cards, and the group can not decide, we always use the lesser value. 

The worst cheating I have seen, is two buddies shooting in the same group were determined to be writing scores. Being the 4th man, not calling arrows, or writing scores, I wrote them all down anyway. It was pretty clear they were shooting sub 300 scores, but they managed to both shoot in the 315 to 320 range, I had em at 298 and 296. Time to sign the cards, we got an official involved, and the arrow caller even said there was no chance they scored that high. I really do not know what happened in the end, but their scores were not posted, and I did not see them the rest of the summer.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

OCHO505 said:


> It should be a no brainer to check running scores every few targets that way if there is a hick up or cheating you catch it early and don't even make it to the point that the cards get turned in that way! We have always done it this way and it eliminates problems cheating always but shows who's not great at math!! LOL


We did have the same scores. He volunteered to turn in the cards. But he didn't turn them in right away apperantly. That's when he redid them.. We were on a honest system. But ..not anymore I will walk with another witness from now on and turn in my groups cards


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

BowHuntnKY said:


> We did have the same scores. He volunteered to turn in the cards. But he didn't turn them in right away apperantly. That's when he redid them.. We were on a honest system. But ..not anymore I will walk with another witness from now on and turn in my groups cards


That is ballsy man! I just don't understand how cheaters actually feel like they did something when they didn't I would feel like a pile of $hitt... I have been athlete my whole life and there is nothing more fulfilling than to earn and scrap your way to the top with will and desire! Anyone that would lie to have that title but not that feeling of accomplishment form hard word and dedication is just a sad person! 

Should get an arrow whipping for every point he added or dry fire his bow ever point added! Unreal!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Wonder whatever happened to the guy who got caught using range finding binos in Semi-Pro a few years ago.


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## BubbaDean1 (Dec 20, 2014)

First off scoring is done by two scorekeepers. One scorekeeper has the official cards except for his own. The second scorekeeper has the unofficial(white) cards except for the official card of scorekeeper one. When scores are tallied the two cards are compared. If the scores agree then the card is signed by the shooter and scorekeeper. Once scorecards are signed they are to be handed in to the range official as a group(all shooters together).


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## BubbaDean1 (Dec 20, 2014)

carlosii said:


> Wonder whatever happened to the guy who got caught using range finding binos in Semi-Pro a few years ago.


Lifetime ban


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## brt92 (Aug 20, 2006)

huteson2us2 said:


> I am a spot shooter that has been thinking of trying 3D. Only shot one 3D in my life and we only used one score card per person and one guy kept score with all the cards. Thus allowing the one person that handled the cards to do anything he wanted and no one would be the wiser. As this was only a state shoot, I was disappointed but thought that things would be handles far more professionally at major 3D events. Cheating at any tournament is a problem and rules should make it impossible for anyone to cheat.
> 
> At even the smallest spot shoot, two score cards are used for each archer and scored by two different score keepers. Both cards are turned in together and both cards must match. Extra card is then given back to the archer. From hat you wrote, I assume that the second card was not turned it to verify the first card.
> 
> Is it true that at a major National 3D tournament that only one card per person and scored by only one person is turned in? If this is the way it is done, then I would say that there probably is a lot more cheating than you realize.



I haven't shot ASA, I shoot IBO. I've shot at the IBO Worlds, and some national events. I've kept score at a couple of these shoots. Each group has two sets of cards and two score keepers. In all the shoots I've shot, we've always had at least one odd shooter to help minimize the chance of heavy pencils. When the round is complete, we compare cards to make sure they match, then the shooter, and both score keepers sign or initial each card.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

If you need to cheat in K40 to make yourself feel good its time to admit you suck and go find another sport. 
when I started competing in 3D many moons ago there wasn’t all these ”don’t get your feelings hurt” classes that make people believe they are actually good at something. You had a pin class and an open class. You took your lumps and tried to get better. But to each his own.


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## Alford227 (Mar 30, 2020)

how anyone could cheat and then feel like a winner is beyond me!


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## TheVanillaKilla (Nov 10, 2020)

Is there a prize in your guys league or is he cheating for bragging rights? It’s wrong either way I’m just curious haha


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