# Calling All Freedom Soldiers!



## amarchery

This is a serious one. Read my letter I just wrote and sent to my address book. I have copied and paste below. Get involved now. Some do not know what this is opening up and where this will take our great country.

Mark 

email

TAKE THE TIME TO HELP. I USUALLY DO NOT DO THIS, BUT I HAVE A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TOPIC. AND I DO NOT WANT MY COUNTRY TO BE LIKE EUROPE, CANADA, OR ANY OTHER INFERIOR COUNTRY. OUR COUNTRY IS SUPERIOR BECAUSE OF THE FREEDOM OF THE PEOPLE IN IT. AND THE LOVE OF THAT VERY FREEDOM. WHY BE LIKE A COUNTRY THAT WE AS A NATION HAVE HAD TO SAVE A FEW TIMES? refer to history re: WWI, WWII etc. 



It is time to get extremely involved in this current bill that is going to get a vote by the end of this week. If you have never, or have, called and sent emails to your Senators and Congress person that represents you, NOW IS THE TIME TO GET ON IT! Why? 



THIS IS NOT A TIME TO FOR YOU TO FIGURE IT WILL GET DONE BY THE REGULAR PEOPLE THAT ARE TYPICALLY INVOLVED IN POLITICS. THE COUNTRY NEEDS US TO DO SOMETHING, RIGHT NOW.



PLEASE TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION SOME THINGS THAT ARE BEING SAID FROM THE FOLKS IN WASHINGTON DC. YOU KNOW, THE ONES THAT THINK THEY ARE MUCH SMARTER THAN YOU AND CAN TAKE CARE OF YOU BETTER THAN YOU CAN. 



1. "IT IS A CIVIL RIGHT TO HAVE HEALTH CARE". 



NO IT IS NOT. IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO FORCE SOMEONE TO PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSES BILLS WHEN THEY CHOSE NOT TO PROTECT THEIR ASSETS. CIVIL RIGHTS ARE ABOUT PERSONAL RIGHTS AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA. NOT FREE STUFF. OUR FREEDOM GIVES YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE AND PROSPER, MATERIALLY AND SPIRITUALLY. THAT IS THE WAY IT IS, AND WE NEED TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. CHOICE IS VERY GOOD. WOULD YOU BUY STOCK IN THE US GOVERNMENT WITH IT'S SPREAD SHEET? TALK ABOUT A RISK. 



2. "WE ARE OBLIGATED TO PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL AMERICANS". REFER TO #1 NO WE ARE NOT.



3. "THE SICK NEED A HIGH RISK POOL WHERE THEY HAVE GUARANTEED ACCEPTANCE". 



THEY HAVE IT NOW. WE HAVE WHAT IS CALLED THE MISSOURI HEALTH POOL THAT PROVIDES COVERAGE FOR FOLKS WITH PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS AS MANY OTHER STATE HAVE. I HAVE WROTE THE POLICIES AS AN AGENT. IT IS AVAILABLE. BUT FOLKS CAN'T OR WON'T DO IT SINCE THEY HAVE A TRUCK PAYMENT, CELL PHONE, A BOAT, OR A HOUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD.  THEIR INCOME RESTRAINT BY THEIR CHOICES HAS LIMITED THEM TO COVER AND PAY FOR THEIR OWN PROETCTION AGAINST MEDICAL BILLS. 



4. "AMERICA CAN NOT STAND TO HAVE SOMEONE THAT IS SICK THAT LOSES THEIR JOB TO LOSE THEIR GROUP COVERAGE AND BE DENIED COVERAGE WHEN THEY APPLY FOR A PRIVATE HEALTH PLAN BECAUSE OF PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS". 



I AGREE. SO DID CONGRESS AND THE SENATE WHEN THE HIPAA LAWS WERE PASSED IN 1996. THE HEALTH INSURANCE PORTABILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT. IT PROVIDES PRIVACY REGARDING MEDICAL RECORDS AND THE RIGHT TO BE ACCEPTED INTO A PRIVATE PLAN WHEN COMING OFF OF A GROUP PLAN OR A PLAN YOU HAD AT WORK. OR A QUALIFYING INDIVIDUAL PLAN. NEVER HEAR IT MENTIONED BY THE LIBERAL FOLKS FOR THIS. THEY ARE THE ONES THAT PASSED IT AND THEY SEEM TO NOT EVER QUOTE THIS OR MAKE IT KNOWN.



Speaker of the House Nancy "Kill a Dolphin" Pelosi said the other day that this was the beginning of an agenda that was put in motion when the Democrats were put in office by the voters. She went on to speak about "other" things that will be coming down the way of Washington when this is finalized. (that is a generalization of the statement) 



THIS IS THE BIGGEST GOVERNMENT CONTROL BILL WE HAVE SEEN SINCE THE GREAT SOCIETY WAS STARTED. WELFARE CONTROLS A LARGE SEGMENT OF AMERICANS BY CREATING DEPENDENCE. THIS BILL IS DESIGNED TO DO THE SAME THING AND SAMY OTHER GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS. CONTROL. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. 



THIS BILL WILL NOT ONLY HAVE CONTROL OF THE TYPICAL WELFARE LEACHES BUT IT WILL HAVE GREAT CONTROL OF LITERALLY EVERY CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES REGARDING MEDICAL CARE. AND EVENTUALLY ILLEGALS THAT ARE NOT AMERCANS. WE NEED TO LET THIS SINK IN A BIT AND THINK ABOUT IT.



HERE ARE THE LINKS TO FIND YOUR SENATORS AND CONGRESSMAN FROM YOUR AREA. GET IT DONE AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE. SEND THEM EMAILS AND CALL THEM. THROW A FIT FOR WHAT IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR. 



http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm



https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml



NOTHING IS FREE. EVERYTHINGS IS PAID FOR BY SOMEONE. IT IS NOT MY MORAL OBLIGATION TO ACCEPT THE GOVERNMENT FORCING ME TO TAKE CARE OF YOU. IT CAN BE MY CHOICE WHEN I CHOOSE TO GIVE. DO NOT FORCE ME TO DO IT. THAT IS ALL I ASK. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I WILL NOT DO IT. I HAVE MY OWN OBLIGATIONS. 



AND ONE MORE THING. ACCORDING TO A SPEACH THE PRESIDENT MADE ABOUT WHEN HE GOT OUT OF COLLEGE HE DOES NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIABILITY ONLY COVERAGE ON HIS AUTOMOBILE AND HAVING COMPREHENSIVE COVERAGE AND COLLISION COVERAGE. HE STATED HE HAD THE, "FINANCIAL REQUIREMENTS", COVRAGE. TO MOST OF US THAT IS LIABILITY ONLY. HE SAID THEY LAUGHED AND DENIED HIS CLAIM TO GET HIS CAR FIXED WHEN HE WAS INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENT. HE ONLY HAD LIABILITY! NO COVERAGE FOR HIS AUTOMOBILE. THAT WAS A PATHEDIC STATEMENT AND NOT ONE COMMENTATOR PICKED UP ON IT. 



DO YOU REALLY THINK HE KNOWS ABOUT THE HIPAA STATUTES AND WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR PHYSICAL BODY AND HEALTH CARE WE HE STILL DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HIS AUTO CLAIM WAS DENIED. THINK ABOUT IT.



THANKS

A CONCERNED AND NOW ACTIVE NARROW-MINDED CONSERVATIVE THAT LOVES THE COUNTRY 

"If you don't like it go somewhere else!"


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## sits in trees

i called my local lawmakers and completely support the health care bill and insurance reform changes which are long over due, it's about time!!!!:darkbeer:


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## amarchery

*yep*

I am not surprised. You are the same guy that argued on the crossbow thread and refused to even try and understand the views of dealers and others trying to stay in business. 

If I remember right nothing mattered to you. Only if you got something cheaper. Total disregard for anyone else but yourself. You are against MAP pricing enforcement but your are for the government control of health care and any other aspect of your life. Total contradiction.

I do not know what you do for a living but this bill will cost you. Did your rep tell you that. Find out for yourself. Give it some effort. And enlighten us on some questions. 1. Who will pay for it? 2. What effect will it have on insurance premiums? 3. Will higher taxes be involved to pay for it? 4. Will people that have been without insurance now be guaranteed acceptance? 5. If so will that make me pay more in the same plan?

Just curious if you could answer them accurately. I am sure you have spent a lot of time looking into this bill.


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## illinoislandog

Thanks for the links. It's about time the insurance industry gets what they deserve. If anything should be a "right" health care for all should be at the top of the list! Just curious? Who are the "Freedom Fighters" going to shoot anyway?


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## amarchery

*Obvious*

Sits In Trees said this on another thread regarding NAFTA. Notice the bold black statements. Totally contradicts his wanting universal health care and govenment control of health care. Although I do agree with this statement. S.I.T. how can we sit around and expect the government to provide something like unions and not go broke, like they have done? And I quote cut/paste...............

quote
OK hears a weird spin on all this and something that not a politician in the land dare say if they ever wanted to be elected again, republican or dem....i think the American worker is a huge part of why this country is in the situation it's in today, yea thats right, no one dare say this but it's true!!

*we all wanted too much, then the unions choked manufacturing by the nutz and we wanted more and more, i mean how the hell are we going to compete on this planet when we want 22.50 and hour with pensions, weeks and weeks of vacation, sick time, bonuses, holidays, more bonuses etc all to just sit there on some assembly line and run a few bolts into the very same object all day long?*
not to mention we dare not be asked to work to hard and dare not be blamed when we screw up either!! or we will run to our union and start a huge stink that will stop production in it's tracks until our little pissin match is completely resolved.

yea we blame our leaders and big business for the nafta thing but what were they supposed to do??? continue using lazy over payed U.S. labor and never be able to sell their over priced products world wide *because of high **overhead *or ask the American worker to work for less???big business couldnt do either so they did what any other life form did and that was survive. now we have all of Asia doing our jobs for alot less and we all sit around trying to get gov jobs because that all that left in this country....

*we as Americans are great at the blame game,* it was clinton, it's the ******, it's the commies etc, etc, and our stupid assed politicians sit there and agree with everything we ***** about and tell us yea "i feel your pain brother", elect me!!

so lets all vote for Palin because she knows that "Hopey Changy Thing" isnt werkin out fer yaa.....Right..


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## johnny liggett

sits in trees said:


> i called my local lawmakers and completely support the health care bill and insurance reform changes which are long over due, it's about time!!!!:darkbeer:


how does it fill to be part of the 20% crowd.guess you won't realize this is nothing about health care and all about government take over of our lives.wait till you see your taxes,premiums raising,and your doctor leaves his practise like in canada,and what gives you the right to steal from others to pay for YOUR health care.


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## johnny liggett

illinoislandog said:


> Thanks for the links. It's about time the insurance industry gets what they deserve. If anything should be a "right" health care for all should be at the top of the list! Just curious? Who are the "Freedom Fighters" going to shoot anyway?


a right is not something you can steal from others,what gives you the right to steal from others to pay for your care.you think the insurance companies need to get what they deserve,when does the out of control government get what they desrve.they rip off a hell of alot more people than insurance companies.


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## amarchery

*Thanks*



illinoislandog said:


> Thanks for the links. It's about time the insurance industry gets what they deserve. If anything should be a "right" health care for all should be at the top of the list! Just curious? Who are the "Freedom Fighters" going to shoot anyway?


What do you do for a living? Let me know and we will go from there. You need it to hit a little closer to home.

It is very easy to say, "Yeah, let the insurance companies get what they deserve".

The Title is a metaphor. Something like, "The word of God is like a two edge sword cutting to bone and marrow". The bible will not kill you. It is a word that is used out of its actual meaning to make a point or comparison.

"Hope and Change"
"Healthcare Bill"

These all are using metaphors to a certain extent. Using words that actually mean something different but are used metaphorically. Or we can get into oxymorons.


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## sits in trees

the only people against health care reform are old people who have nothing better to do than stand around at tea party conventions with signs, sqauking like a bunch of dingbats!!
i dont care how you and fox news try and spin the polls, ask any one if they think big insurance should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have been for years and you will get your answer..
meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:


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## Billjzx9

*yes to reform;no to this bill*

Not many people are saying they do not want some sort of health reform. Do you really think it takes a bill over 2700 pages to fix something. It's hard to tell what will be hid in it by the time it is done. This bill and the way it is being pushed through is an embarrassment to the founding fathers!!


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## johnny liggett

sits in trees said:


> the only people against health care reform are old people who have nothing better to do than stand around at tea party conventions with signs, sqauking like a bunch of dingbats!!
> i dont care how you and fox news try and spin the polls, ask any one if they think big insurance should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have been for years and you will get your answer..
> meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:


oh i would love to meet you,if ever in indiana by all means look me up:johnny liggett,7319 kremer rd.,evansville,in 47720.the invation wil ALWAYS BE THERE for you.


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## sits in trees

johnny liggett said:


> oh i would love to meet you,if ever in indiana by all means look me up:johnny liggett,7319 kremer rd.,evansville,in 47720.the invation wil ALWAYS BE THERE for you.


better check the cap on your health policy first bub, i'll make sure you reach the max


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## whitehunter2

johnny liggett said:


> oh i would love to meet you,if ever in indiana by all means look me up:johnny liggett,7319 kremer rd.,evansville,in 47720.the invation wil ALWAYS BE THERE for you.


hey this freedom soldier just put his address on the world wide web, a real thinker Huh??
hey why don't you post what school yer kids go to, or where yer wifey works:banana:


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## amarchery

*Ok*

Focus. We are all part of it. We will all pay for it. Some of you never are consistent on your thoughts. You move with the wind. 

Learn about what it really does. You can not express a strong opinion based on not knowing. Do not support something because of a title. And my gosh grow up. Are we going to beat somebody up. What are you in High School?

Seriously, grow up a little.


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## illinoislandog

amarchery said:


> What do you do for a living? Let me know and we will go from there. You need it to hit a little closer to home.
> 
> It is very easy to say, "Yeah, let the insurance companies get what they deserve".
> 
> The Title is a metaphor. Something like, "The word of God is like a two edge sword cutting to bone and marrow". The bible will not kill you. It is a word that is used out of its actual meaning to make a point or comparison.
> 
> "Hope and Change"
> "Healthcare Bill"
> 
> These all are using metaphors to a certain extent. Using words that actually mean something different but are used metaphorically. Or we can get into oxymorons.


Just was informed 2 days ago my auto insurance will be going up 27% annually. Me my wife and 17 yr old son. No accidents, no tickets, no claims in 17 years. Reason was a new "administrative fee" Insurance is a scummy industry and they obviously need a little more gov. control. :wink:


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## johnny liggett

illinoislandog said:


> Just was informed 2 days ago my auto insurance will be going up 27% annually. Me my wife and 17 yr old son. No accidents, no tickets, no claims in 17 years. Reason was a new "administrative fee" Insurance is a scummy industry and they obviously need a little more gov. control. :wink:


government forced you to have insurance but your not mad at government,classic.


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## illinoislandog

sits in trees said:


> the only people against health care reform are old people who have nothing better to do than stand around at tea party conventions with signs, sqauking like a bunch of dingbats!!
> i dont care how you and fox news try and spin the polls, ask any one if they think big insurance should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have been for years and you will get your answer..
> meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:


Rock on Bro!:wink:


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## johnny liggett

whitehunter2 said:


> hey this freedom soldier just put his address on the world wide web, a real thinker Huh??
> hey why don't you post what school yer kids go to, or where yer wifey works:banana:


because i'm not scared,are you threatening my child?would you like to meet as well?


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## johnny liggett

sits in trees said:


> better check the cap on your health policy first bub, i'll make sure you reach the max


i gave you my address and offer you the invite,please don't be an internet tough guy,they bore me.


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## illinoislandog

johnny liggett said:


> government forced you to have insurance but your not mad at government,classic.


Common sense and liability issues would be the reason for insurance. You loyally send them a check year after year... then they take these millions of checks... reinvest the peoples money... make billions in profits from the peoples money...and then they forget the reason they receive the money.

They have staff whos job is to find a reason not to pay you or cancel you when you make a claim. They can raise your rates any amount they desire, can cancel you anytime they want and for no valid reason. Then they can scate with your money. Then you are "high risk" and have to get extremely hosed to get reinsured if you can at all. Now you are going to defend this practice? If you vote rep. this is what you are voting for. Insurance industry has been in the back pockets of the repubs for decades.:wink:


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## ebonarcher

johnny liggett said:


> government forced you to have insurance but your not mad at government,classic.


Interesting view point...wrong buy interesting.....


Causeaulty...........
Cause effect..........
Government requires you to have insurance OR provide a BOND........
here it comes........... be CAUSE too many lowlifes drive badly and refused to pay for the problems they cause.

Blame the cause not the messenger.


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## rodney482

johnny liggett said:


> i gave you my address and offer you the invite,please don't be an internet tough guy,they bore me.


come on now arnt we all friends?? Fellow bowhunters?

take it down a notch


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## johnny liggett

illinoislandog said:


> Common sense and liability issues would be the reason for insurance. You loyally send them a check year after year... then they take these millions of checks... reinvest the peoples money... make billions in profits from the peoples money...and then they forget the reason they receive the money.
> 
> They have staff whos job is to find a reason not to pay you or cancel you when you make a claim. They can raise your rates any amount they desire, can cancel you anytime they want and for no valid reason. Then they can scate with your money. Then you are "high risk" and have to get extremely hosed to get reinsured if you can at all. Now you are going to defend this practice? If you vote rep. this is what you are voting for. Insurance industry has been in the back pockets of the repubs for decades.:wink:


both dems and repubs are in the insurance's pockets.i don't defend all the insurance's practice's.but i would rather have the ablity to shop around,compare rates,and choose the company that best serves my needs than have the government dictate what i must do.i've had the same state farm agent for 17 years and he has been great to me.i hear others say they hate state farm.i shop[ around everyyear looking for better rates,but don always does me right,never batted an eye at any claim i've had.everything the government touches gets bloated out of portion,goes broke,or taxes go up to cover their corruption.in the free market,if you don't like who your dealing with you can change,once the government takes over you have no options and it gets worse.this is not a new idea,socialism has been tried all over the world for years and ALWAYS fails.the american way of life is the best in the world because of capitalism(although not perfect)not socialism.social security-broke,medacare-broke,welfare systems-broke,and we have'nt even got to the baby boomers yet.no way we can continue on this path and servive as a nation,won't work.people need to take responsibilty for their own well being and actions and quite relying on nanny state government to provide for them or we will go broke like europe,greece,argentina,soviet union,and others.ask venzuela how chavez is working out for them.


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## johnny liggett

ebonarcher said:


> Interesting view point...wrong buy interesting.....
> 
> 
> Causeaulty...........
> Cause effect..........
> Government requires you to have insurance OR provide a BOND........
> here it comes........... be CAUSE too many lowlifes drive badly and refused to pay for the problems they cause.
> 
> Blame the cause not the messenger.


so we don't go after the low lifes,we get government mandates.do people still drive with out insurance?um,yea.so how's all this government control working out for ya!all people have to do is turn on their tv or read a news paper everyday to see just how corrupt the government is,regardless of whose in power,and yet people still want them to control their lives.MIND BLOWING TO ME!!!!


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## johnny liggett

rodney482 said:


> come on now arnt we all friends?? Fellow bowhunters?
> 
> take it down a notch


to answer your first 2 questions,no and no.now i got some internet tough guy saying if you don't back government ran healthcare,i'll beat you up.all i did was invite him to my house to see if his beater was broke,not threatening or anything,simple invite and you ask me to tone it down a notch?answer to third question,no.


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## fxdwgkd

NO, NO, NO..this bill will kill our economy. How can we let the gov take over such a large part of it. I can not for the life of me figure why any american would want this. Most of the Sen and Reps should be impeached, along with the pres, US Constitution - Article II, section 4. BRIBERY!!!


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## whitehunter2

johnny liggett said:


> to answer your first 2 questions,no and no.now i got some internet tough guy saying if you don't back government ran healthcare,i'll beat you up.all i did was invite him to my house to see if his beater was broke,not threatening or anything,simple invite and you ask me to tone it down a notch?answer to third question,no.


your the one sounding like an internet tough guy? Freedom Soldier:set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2: ...hey watch out soldier, Obamas gonna take yer fishin rights


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## hunt1up

illinoislandog said:


> Just was informed 2 days ago my auto insurance will be going up 27% annually. Me my wife and 17 yr old son. No accidents, no tickets, no claims in 17 years. Reason was a new "administrative fee" Insurance is a scummy industry and they obviously need a little more gov. control. :wink:


Get a new insurance company. Not rocket science. My dad has just switched all his insurance after 25 years with the same insurance company with no claims and saved 15% across the board. No it wasn't to Geico. No one is forcing you to have a certain level or type of auto insurance. But when the healthcare bill gets passed, someone will be forcing you to have health insurance. Sweeetttt.

Oh, and kill the bill.


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## target guy

sits in trees said:


> the only people against health care reform are old people who have nothing better to do than stand around at tea party conventions with signs, sqauking like a bunch of dingbats!!
> i dont care how you and fox news try and spin the polls, ask any one if they think big insurance should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have been for years and you will get your answer..
> meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:



I am not one that usually says too much but here we go:
Where do you get off calling older people “ding bats’? Are those the same ding bats that fought in WWII? Are they the same ones that have given you the freedoms to state your small minded opinions on a forum like this? After spending most of my adult life defending YOUR freedoms to spout off non sense like you have I don’t ask for respect, I don’t demand respect, what I do is ask that you take a minute to respect the old ding bats that have taken much of their life to give you the rights to defend your stance. What I DO demand is that you articulate your stance with more than party line rhetoric. 
I don’t like the current bill and I am not nuts about health care as it stands, but what is going on now to pass this bill is ludicrous. I know there is precedent for the way they are working around/within the system, but I think of you look at how it was handled before it was with both parties under some sort of agreement. If you like the bill state why, don’t slam what others are saying, and if you don’t like it say why, again don’t slam what others are saying.
I don’t like the bill for a number of reasons:

1. At over 2000 pages it is too long and there are way too many places to hide little pet ideas, when it is singed those ideas are law.
2. I don’t think any one that is for or against the bill really know what is all in it.
3. It is almost a straight party line vote, in all my life any bill that is straight party line of either side cannot be good, it is one party forcing that will on another.
Those are just three that come to mind as I sit here.


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## deadlyjest

*What?????*



sits in trees said:


> the only people against health care reform are old people who have nothing better to do than stand around at tea party conventions with signs, sqauking like a bunch of dingbats!!
> i dont care how you and fox news try and spin the polls, ask any one if they think big insurance should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have been for years and you will get your answer..
> meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:


I am against this railroad job because it is NOT well thought out. I believe in healthcare but I had to go to work and earn the health care I have. I do not understand why I have to pay for the people who did not. 
As for old people, you are obviously young and voted for the current administration so I forgive your ignorance. 2700 pages for this bill and they do not even have a final, great to support something you know little about.


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## whitehunter2

target guy said:


> I am not one that usually says too much but here we go:
> Where do you get off calling older people “ding bats’? Are those the same ding bats that fought in WWII? Are they the same ones that have given you the freedoms to state your small minded opinions on a forum like this? After spending most of my adult life defending YOUR freedoms to spout off non sense like you have I don’t ask for respect, I don’t demand respect, what I do is ask that you take a minute to respect the old ding bats that have taken much of their life to give you the rights to defend your stance. What I DO demand is that you articulate your stance with more than party line rhetoric.
> I don’t like the current bill and I am not nuts about health care as it stands, but what is going on now to pass this bill is ludicrous. I know there is precedent for the way they are working around/within the system, but I think of you look at how it was handled before it was with both parties under some sort of agreement. If you like the bill state why, don’t slam what others are saying, and if you don’t like it say why, again don’t slam what others are saying.
> I don’t like the bill for a number of reasons:
> 
> 1. At over 2000 pages it is too long and there are way too many places to hide little pet ideas, when it is singed those ideas are law.
> 2. I don’t think any one that is for or against the bill really know what is all in it.
> 3. It is almost a straight party line vote, in all my life any bill that is straight party line of either side cannot be good, it is one party forcing that will on another.
> Those are just three that come to mind as I sit here.


Dude the young are taking over this country, the young overwhelmingly voted for Obama and want health care reform, the young don't give a crap what war you fought in and for you to sit their and tell me how you fought for my freedom is a load of hog dung!!! you fought for nothing i have or plan to have in the future. sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that, get a life gramps!! the only ole people i owe anything are my parents!


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## Big Country

OK boys and girls, it is time to turn this thread around and behave like adults.

Timeouts have been issued, hopefully we do not have to add more to the list.


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## Two Blade

I hope all of you young geniuses realize that a government that is big enough to give you anything you want, is also a government that is big enough to take it away.


Yep!


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## grnxlt

This is a job killing bill, a business killing bill and a America killing bill, and sure as heck is a Constitution killing bill........It's all about total control


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## Hoosierflogger

I will never understand, no matter how I try, the mentality that so many have in this country, that they are entitled to that which others have produced.

You are entitled to all the air you can breathe.
Beyond that, you are entitled to whatever your talents and initiative can provide.

The person you are today (no matter what age you are) is a culmination of a multitude of decisions, made by you, that brought you to this point.
Along the way we have all made good and bad decisions. Those decisions have consequences. 
If you take away the consequences for bad decision making, by making things like insurance an entitlement, what happens to personal responsibility?
What is a persons motivation to be productive?

Where does it end?
I think it is terrible that there are homeless people in the world.
Should the government provide housing?
Some people don't have a ride to the doctor.
Should the government give them a new car?
Personally, I've been thinking my bass boat isn't big enough.
Perhaps the government should buy me a new bass boat, with the money earned by someone else.


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## grnxlt

...


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## Two Blade

Hoosierflogger said:


> Where does it end?


All good points. Since you have already covered shelter, I will add....Is there more of a basic human need/right than food? If all of of these leeches and young punks think that health care is a right that should be provided by the government, then I wonder if they think that housing and food is also a right that should be provided by the government.


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## Two Blade

Here is where alot of this entitlement bs originated....with that commie pos FDR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3NTUNQzr3k


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## Hoosierflogger

Well, we've just learned that our 8th district congressman Brad Ellsworth will be voting in favor of the bill.

No big surprise here, he votes straight down the socialist line.

He has been wrong on economic stimulus, wrong on tarp, wrong on the auto bailouts, and wrong on just about everything else.
Didn't really expect him to start representing his constituents now.


Welcome to the new America!
What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine. :wink:


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## proXarchery

Hey sits in trees you cant even put info in your profile---coward like the rest of the tree huggers what are you doing here on a weapons and hunting site. Best advise you dont like it here in the USA get out


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## AR_Headhunter

Some of us are willing to give our lives defending the principles our great country was based on. Some people call us crazy but I call those of you who are willing to fight & die for those principles, *BROTHERS*!:thumbs_up


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## target guy

whitehunter2 said:


> Dude the young are taking over this country, the young overwhelmingly voted for Obama and want health care reform, the young don't give a crap what war you fought in and for you to sit their and tell me how you fought for my freedom is a load of hog dung!!! you fought for nothing i have or plan to have in the future. sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that, get a life gramps!! the only ole people i owe anything are my parents!



So when I ask you to come up with why you are for or against an item all you can do is try to bash me? How is that job working out for you? You know the one " do you want fries with that sir" job. I thought as a younger man I had the world by the a** too. That the "older guys" (anyone over 40) did not have a clue. As far as what you have or don't have, I guess you could move to another country and tell me what you have or don't have. Even just go visit one for a few months and then come back and do your little book report. That would be a very good education for you. I hope you live long enough to go back and read your words again, and realize what a complete a** you made yourself look like.


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## grnxlt

That little a*****e has a big set don't he?? Like to see him go into a VFW or VA and spew that rhetoric.......ukey:


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## Two Blade

grnxlt said:


> That little a*****e has a big set don't he?? Like to see him go into a VFW or VA and spew that rhetoric.......ukey:


You have to realize that you are wasting your time when you are dealing with someone that has the same entitlement mentality as this idiot.


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## SCswitchback

whitehunter2 said:


> Dude the young are taking over this country, the young overwhelmingly voted for Obama and want health care reform, the young don't give a crap what war you fought in and for you to sit their and tell me how you fought for my freedom is a load of hog dung!!! you fought for nothing i have or plan to have in the future. sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that, get a life gramps!! the only ole people i owe anything are my parents!


What a POS!


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## hunt1up

whitehunter2 said:


> Dude the young are taking over this country, the young overwhelmingly voted for Obama and want health care reform, the young don't give a crap what war you fought in and for you to sit their and tell me how you fought for my freedom is a load of hog dung!!! you fought for nothing i have or plan to have in the future. sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that, get a life gramps!! the only ole people i owe anything are my parents!


I am young and didn't vote for Obama and don't want this health care. I do give a crap what war any person of any generation faught in. They are in fact the reason you and I are free. You sir are a discrace to our generation and our country. I feel sorry for you.


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## grnxlt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19v5Kjmc8FI




ukey:


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## Two Blade

Here is another fine example of the entitlement mentality.


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## fxdwgkd

It never ceases to amaze me at the ignorance of people.


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## Two Blade

sits in trees said:


> meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:


You deserve good health care? Who pays for it? Don't say the government pays for it because the the government doesn't have any money unless they tax people like me. If that is ok with you then what you are saying is that I should help pay for your health care.


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## SCswitchback

hunt1up said:


> I am young and didn't vote for Obama and don't want this health care. I do give a crap what war any person of any generation faught in. They are in fact the reason you and I are free. You sir are a discrace to our generation and our country. I feel sorry for you.


+1 Good post.


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## WVDave

whitehunter2 said:


> Dude the young are taking over this country, the young overwhelmingly voted for Obama and want health care reform, the young don't give a crap what war you fought in and for you to sit their and tell me how you fought for my freedom is a load of hog dung!!! you fought for nothing i have or plan to have in the future. sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that, get a life gramps!! the only ole people i owe anything are my parents!


WH2, I have a couple issues with what you said. First, I've spent the better part of two decades in the military. Though I've never shot anybody, at anybody or even seen real combat, I assure you that regardless of how you feel about what I've done or not done for you, that I do and will stand ready to defend you and your opinions with my life. Your comments don't offend me because you either said them tongue-in-cheek to get a rise out of people with no sense of sarcasm or you truly are young. You are right that young people overwhelmingly voted for Obama. What you are wrong about is yong people taking over this country. Try this; call the White House and demand to talk to the President. Tell them you are a young person who voted for him and you want to let him know what else you want besides this awesome HC package. In fact, get ALL of your young buddies together and do a conference call. Tell me how far you got. Is it just me, or does anyone else see the irony in his "sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that" statement? Isn't this HC Bill and in fact, this entire "Progressive" movement about young people whining about what is owed to them? As for the people griping about the insurance companies being in the Republican's pockets, guess what...you're right! The problem is that you are using that as your basis for defending this package but it is only half the story. You see, trial lawyers (you know, the ones that make millions suing doctors) are in the Democrat's pockets. Dems refuse to tackle tort reform (limiting how much doctors can be sued for), because the trial lawyers would lose billions a year and wouldn't support them anymore. This leads to doctors charging exorbitant fees just to pay their insurance and try to make a little profit. These fees then get passed on to you via insurance premium hikes and then Dems say "see, those evil insurance companies are screwing the little guy, we gotta tak over!" Not one person that I have talked to says that the system is perfect the way it is. Both sides are to blame. An analogy for the way the Dems are handling it is like saying 'well, we have a flat tire, better buy a new car...and a Rolls Royce at that!" Sure affordable, top of the line health care would great for everyone, the problem is that it isn't realistic right now. Why can't we do tort reform? Why can't we allow insurance companies to sell their product across state lines? What a lot of people don't realize is that this bill is a stepping stone to other bigger things for Progressives. It is written so that insurance companies can't possibly keep their head obove water. Explain to me how insurance companies can stay in business if they have to take on patients with pre-existing conditions and not raise their premiums. What insurance company would sign you up for car insurance just after you wrecked??? The program is set up so they can say "see, we tried to keep private insurance companies in business, but they are incompetent, so the government must take over." It is just like saying, we're not going to make cigarettes illegal, but we will tax the crap out of them until nobody can afford it. Another thing, how do we afford it? Hopefully you realize that the government does not have its own money. They aren't paying for this healthcare, we are! As the population of this country gets older (baby boomers getting up there in age now), how do we pay for all of them? More taxes? Unless the government sets up a bake sale outside the Whitehouse, taxes is all they have! And when the hell has government EVER run anything on time and under budget? EVER??? Everyone in the world agrees that quality, affordable health care for everyone would be terrific. The problem is that no matter what you think, we just took an enormous step backwards for this country. Don't worry Whitehunter 2, Social Security will be there for you too when you get older, the Progressives promised... Whatever you do, please hurry with your solution because soon you too will be a geriatric 30 year old with no intelligence, wisdom or experience and will depend on teenagers to tell you how the world works and what's best for you!

Disclaimer for Progressives- I know that since I disagree with the President, the Speaker of the House, Barney Frank and the House Majority Leader that I am blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic and against people raised in ***** houses, but I ask that you forgive my imperfections, you know how us crazy hetero white males can be at times.


----------



## AR_Headhunter

WVDave said:


> WH2, I have a couple issues with what you said. First, I've spent the better part of two decades in the military. Though I've never shot anybody, at anybody or even seen real combat, I assure you that regardless of how you feel about what I've done or not done for you, that I do and will stand ready to defend you and your opinions with my life. Your comments don't offend me because you either said them tongue-in-cheek to get a rise out of people with no sense of sarcasm or you truly are young. You are right that young people overwhelmingly voted for Obama. What you are wrong about is yong people taking over this country. Try this; call the White House and demand to talk to the President. Tell them you are a young person who voted for him and you want to let him know what else you want besides this awesome HC package. In fact, get ALL of your young buddies together and do a conference call. Tell me how far you got. Is it just me, or does anyone else see the irony in his "sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that" statement? Isn't this HC Bill and in fact, this entire "Progressive" movement about young people whining about what is owed to them? As for the people griping about the insurance companies being in the Republican's pockets, guess what...you're right! The problem is that you are using that as your basis for defending this package but it is only half the story. You see, trial lawyers (you know, the ones that make millions suing doctors) are in the Democrat's pockets. Dems refuse to tackle tort reform (limiting how much doctors can be sued for), because the trial lawyers would lose billions a year and wouldn't support them anymore. This leads to doctors charging exorbitant fees just to pay their insurance and try to make a little profit. These fees then get passed on to you via insurance premium hikes and then Dems say "see, those evil insurance companies are screwing the little guy, we gotta tak over!" Not one person that I have talked to says that the system is perfect the way it is. Both sides are to blame. An analogy for the way the Dems are handling it is like saying 'well, we have a flat tire, better buy a new car...and a Rolls Royce at that!" Sure affordable, top of the line health care would great for everyone, the problem is that it isn't realistic right now. Why can't we do tort reform? Why can't we allow insurance companies to sell their product across state lines? What a lot of people don't realize is that this bill is a stepping stone to other bigger things for Progressives. It is written so that insurance companies can't possibly keep their head obove water. Explain to me how insurance companies can stay in business if they have to take on patients with pre-existing conditions and not raise their premiums. What insurance company would sign you up for car insurance just after you wrecked??? The program is set up so they can say "see, we tried to keep private insurance companies in business, but they are incompetent, so the government must take over." It is just like saying, we're not going to make cigarettes illegal, but we will tax the crap out of them until nobody can afford it. Another thing, how do we afford it? Hopefully you realize that the government does not have its own money. They aren't paying for this healthcare, we are! As the population of this country gets older (baby boomers getting up there in age now), how do we pay for all of them? More taxes? Unless the government sets up a bake sale outside the Whitehouse, taxes is all they have! And when the hell has government EVER run anything on time and under budget? EVER??? Everyone in the world agrees that quality, affordable health care for everyone would be terrific. The problem is that no matter what you think, we just took an enormous step backwards for this country. Don't worry Whitehunter 2, Social Security will be there for you too when you get older, the Progressives promised... Whatever you do, please hurry with your solution because soon you too will be a geriatric 30 year old with no intelligence, wisdom or experience and will depend on teenagers to tell you how the world works and what's best for you!
> 
> Disclaimer for Progressives- I know that since I disagree with the President, the Speaker of the House, Barney Frank and the House Majority Leader that I am blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic and against people raised in ***** houses, but I ask that you forgive my imperfections, you know how us crazy hetero white males can be at times.


Great post!!!:thumbs_up


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## SCOTT CARTER

The reason your insurance premiums are so high is because all of the stupid govermant regulations on the insurance companies plain and simple. Im not in the insurance business just so you all know. The insurance companies ARE NOT THE BAD GUYS!!!! THE GOVERMENT IS! And OUR FREEDOMS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY FASTER THAN WE CAN BLINK!


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## grnxlt

20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms 

By David Hogberg Posted 03/21/2010 03:24 PM ET 

If some reports are to be believed, the Democrats will pass the Senate health care bill with some reconciliation changes later today. Thus, it is worthwhile to take a comprehensive look at the freedoms we will lose. 

Of course, the bill is supposed to provide us with security. But it will result in skyrocketing insurance costs and physicians leaving the field in droves, making it harder to afford and find medical care. We may be about to live Benjamin Franklin’s adage, “People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” 

The sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill as displayed by the Rules Committee. 

1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501) 

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701). 

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711). 

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712). 

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714). 

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care. You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302). 

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d)(1)(A)) 

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A). 

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513). 10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)). 

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i)) 

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A)). 

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)). 

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003) 

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)). 

16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)). The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405). 

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).) 

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014). 

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015). That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402). 

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).


----------



## WVDave

sits in trees said:


> the only people against health care reform are old people who have nothing better to do than stand around at tea party conventions with signs, sqauking like a bunch of dingbats!!
> i dont care how you and fox news try and spin the polls, ask any one if they think big insurance should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have been for years and you will get your answer..
> meet me face to face and tell me people in this great land of ours don't deserve good health care and you just might find out how crappy your health care really is:wink:


Fair enough...now ask anyone (especially in Detroit) if they think unions should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have for years and YOU will get YOUR answer. Better yet, do a little research on the current situation in Greece and then explain how great unions are to us. You are looking at only one side of the coin and making your decision.


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## WVDave

Sits in Trees, Whitehunter 2 and Illinoislandog,

I know you guys aren't the only ones crowing about this "victory" in healthcare and I can't help but notice the thumbing of the nose rhetoric coming from your side of the aisle. I thought of an analogy I wanted to share with you to help explain how I and I'm sure many others like me feel about the healthcare plan, so indulge me for a second if you will...

You and I both agree that we want to go skydiving so we get on a plane together. We get above the clouds and you you tell me its time to jump. I tell you no, according to the pilot who has flown over this area time and time again we're not over land, we're over water that is known for the numbers of sharks. You tell me I'm crazy, that of course we're above land because a guy you know that has flown on an airplane before told you it was o.k. , so against my will you push me out the door and jump yourself. Just after clearing the plane, you look up a the beautiful blue sky and laugh at me because you won! As we're falling together, we get through the clouds and you see below us that indeed, its nothing but sharks. The sharks don't give a damn that you were positive you were over land, all they see is fresh meat. They'll devour you as quickly as they do me. It does no good for me to say "I told you so" because we are headed for the same fate; brother, we can't get back on that plane. 

Obama signing that bill was the American people getting pushed out that door. You're still looking up at the blue sky above. Those clouds and whatever is below is closing fast. How sure are you that its ground below were headed for? Brothers, we can't get back on that plane and I smell fish!


----------



## rn3

WVDave said:


> Fair enough...now ask anyone (especially in Detroit) if they think unions should be able to continue screwing hard working Americans the way they have for years and YOU will get YOUR answer. Better yet, do a little research on the current situation in Greece and then explain how great unions are to us. You are looking at only one side of the coin and making your decision.


How are unions screwing hard working Americans.


----------



## fxdwgkd

rn3 said:


> How are unions screwing hard working Americans.


I will try to explain why he may feel this way. People feel union laborers are generally over paid for the job they are doing. This is especially true in the manufacturing jobs that are union and not in the skilled labor side. How much skill does it take to push a broom? My cousin worked for Eaton and all he did was sweep the floor. He made $20 and hr. How much skill does it take to assemble three bolts into an object on an assembly line? I have several friends that work at GM who do this exact job. They are making $20 plus and hour. So here is the rub. With a labor force doing menial jobs for high pay it raises the cost of the end product. So the general population starts buying a product made over-seas at a cheaper price. This in turn drives people out of work because they are no longer selling production/products. I think that may be what the reference to the unions screwing the hard working American. I worked union and non union jobs. The worst part about a union is it protects the employees-the ones that should be let go and replaced cause they are lazy!!


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## rn3

fxdwgkd said:


> I will try to explain why he may feel this way. People feel union laborers are generally over paid for the job they are doing. This is especially true in the manufacturing jobs that are union and not in the skilled labor side. How much skill does it take to push a broom? My cousin worked for Eaton and all he did was sweep the floor. He made $20 and hr. How much skill does it take to assemble three bolts into an object on an assembly line? I have several friends that work at GM who do this exact job. They are making $20 plus and hour. So here is the rub. With a labor force doing menial jobs for high pay it raises the cost of the end product. So the general population starts buying a product made over-seas at a cheaper price. This in turn drives people out of work because they are no longer selling production/products. I think that may be what the reference to the unions screwing the hard working American. I worked union and non union jobs. The worst part about a union is it protects the employees-the ones that should be let go and replaced cause they are lazy!!


I know a little about the auto industry, and trust me they put more than 3 screws on a car and have to do it in less than a minute be fore the next unit arrives at the work station. the cost of labor in the auto industry is about 8-10 % this includes the management side added in also. The unions have actualy benefited hard working Americans by raising the average Americans standard of living over the years.


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## Two Blade

rn3 said:


> I know a little about the auto industry, and trust me they put more than 3 screws on a car and have to do it in less than a minute be fore the next unit arrives at the work station. the cost of labor in the auto industry is about 8-10 % this includes the management side added in also. The unions have actualy benefited hard working Americans by raising the average Americans standard of living over the years.


The cost of labor was/is only a small part of the problem with the auto industry. The biggest problem was the lifetime benefits that were so outrageous.


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## rcates

whitehunter2 said:


> Dude the young are taking over this country, the young overwhelmingly voted for Obama and want health care reform, the young don't give a crap what war you fought in and for you to sit their and tell me how you fought for my freedom is a load of hog dung!!! you fought for nothing i have or plan to have in the future. sick and tired of listening to old people cryin and whining about how we owe you this and that, get a life gramps!! the only ole people i owe anything are my parents!


Wow. Your parents should be ashamed


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## TPG

hunt1up said:


> I do give a crap what war any person of any generation faught in. They are in fact the reason you and I are free.


So what have you done for them?
Are you helping out with all the guys who are messed up after spending multiple tours overseas?
Are you there helping out and giving money to Wounded Warrior or any of the myriad of other groups that are doing WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING?

Every single one of you with your ******ed made in china ribbons on your cars should be ashamed.


----------



## illinoislandog

WVDave said:


> Sits in Trees, Whitehunter 2 and Illinoislandog,
> 
> I know you guys aren't the only ones crowing about this "victory" in healthcare and I can't help but notice the thumbing of the nose rhetoric coming from your side of the aisle. I thought of an analogy I wanted to share with you to help explain how I and I'm sure many others like me feel about the healthcare plan, so indulge me for a second if you will...
> 
> You and I both agree that we want to go skydiving so we get on a plane together. We get above the clouds and you you tell me its time to jump. I tell you no, according to the pilot who has flown over this area time and time again we're not over land, we're over water that is known for the numbers of sharks. You tell me I'm crazy, that of course we're above land because a guy you know that has flown on an airplane before told you it was o.k. , so against my will you push me out the door and jump yourself. Just after clearing the plane, you look up a the beautiful blue sky and laugh at me because you won! As we're falling together, we get through the clouds and you see below us that indeed, its nothing but sharks. The sharks don't give a damn that you were positive you were over land, all they see is fresh meat. They'll devour you as quickly as they do me. It does no good for me to say "I told you so" because we are headed for the same fate; brother, we can't get back on that plane.
> 
> Obama signing that bill was the American people getting pushed out that door. You're still looking up at the blue sky above. Those clouds and whatever is below is closing fast. How sure are you that its ground below were headed for? Brothers, we can't get back on that plane and I smell fish![/QUOTE
> 
> Look let me get something straight, I am a conservative dem, I was merely responding to some insurance man whining about how the HCB was going to effect him personally. I hunt and fish, I support gun rights, I do not believe in abortion, but I also dont think the gov has the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body. I do not support same sex marriage. I do not support "special" rights for anyone or any race. I dont like welfare, to people or corporations. I believe in equality for all. Saying that, I feel the wealthy shouldn't have special tax rates. If a person who makes 50,000 pays 20%, then a person who makes 1,000,000 should pay 20%. You make more money, you pay more taxes, plain and simple. I would like a flat tax rate. When rep are in control the tax rates are set up when you make a certain amount or are wealthy, then your tax rate decreases and then you can scate all the way to the bank. I support unions in theory, But they have major flaws that need to be addressed. My father was in the UAW for many years. He worked hard for many years and honestly I think you could count the days he missed on one hand. He was a dem as most my family. He stood on the concrete for many years doing skilled labor. It takes its toll on a worker, they pretty much give their life for the company. The company makes billions in profits, the upper management makes outragious salaries and bonuses, and the union assures the workers earn a descent wage+ piece of the pie. I do believe in a lot of the rep agenda, BUT if I vote rep, I am suporting the wealthy 10%. The wealthy 10% could care less if I live or die, it's all about money and taxes, period. If I vote rep I support ins companies, pharm. companies, oil companies, if I vote rep I support corporate greed and corporate welfare. I simply cant vote rep for these reasons. Dems are portrayed here on AT as "entitled and lazy", ect... The list goes on. I assure you the entitled, lazy type is a small % of a small %. I do not know any dems such as this, period. They all work hard such as myself, family and friends alongside reps who are family and friends as well. I like the idea of health care reform. I do not think this was the right time to tackle the issue. Both sides got pretty nasty, thats politics today. It passed the first major hurdle. I dont like the way it came about, but its here. If it decreases the national deficit, great. If it will help the people it truly intended to, great. You'll always have bottom feeders who'll take advantage and scate on the system, both democrat and republican. Nothing I can really do about it but vote. That's democracy. Now if you want to beat me up PERSONALLY because I am a dem, have at it. I'm a big boy. BUT I'm a dem and I probably have more guns than you and I will still tip one over with my bow this fall.


----------



## hunt1up

TPG said:


> So what have you done for them?
> Are you helping out with all the guys who are messed up after spending multiple tours overseas?
> Are you there helping out and giving money to Wounded Warrior or any of the myriad of other groups that are doing WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING?
> 
> Every single one of you with your ******ed made in china ribbons on your cars should be ashamed.


What am I doing for them? Not enough. Yes, I do actually give money to such groups. Yes, Wounded Warrior is the exact one. Also, you will not find me disagreeing with you about the government not doing their part for our veterans. It is nonsense and you are right. I have the utmost respect for our veterans and I can never equal their sacrifice. 

Oh, and I've owned 10 different vehicles and they were/are American made.


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## rocklocker2

*funny*

its funny to see people on here a bowhunting site defend the very insurance co's that want all deer gone so they dont have to pay out for deer motor vehicle accidents.and they pay lobbyists to make sure the officials vote their way


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## natural born k

first the banks, then gm and now health care. welcome to socialism. whats next? millions of illegals becoming americans. the govt couldn't run social security and thats just a savings account. god help us.


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## grnxlt

...


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## badomen

Look let me get something straight, I am a conservative dem, I was merely responding to some insurance man whining about how the HCB was going to effect him personally. I hunt and fish, I support gun rights, I do not believe in abortion, but I also dont think the gov has the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body. I do not support same sex marriage. I do not support "special" rights for anyone or any race. I dont like welfare, to people or corporations. I believe in equality for all. Saying that, I feel the wealthy shouldn't have special tax rates. If a person who makes 50,000 pays 20%, then a person who makes 1,000,000 should pay 20%. You make more money, you pay more taxes, plain and simple. I would like a flat tax rate. When rep are in control the tax rates are set up when you make a certain amount or are wealthy, then your tax rate decreases and then you can scate all the way to the bank. I support unions in theory, But they have major flaws that need to be addressed. My father was in the UAW for many years. He worked hard for many years and honestly I think you could count the days he missed on one hand. He was a dem as most my family. He stood on the concrete for many years doing skilled labor. It takes its toll on a worker, they pretty much give their life for the company. The company makes billions in profits, the upper management makes outragious salaries and bonuses, and the union assures the workers earn a descent wage+ piece of the pie. I do believe in a lot of the rep agenda, BUT if I vote rep, I am suporting the wealthy 10%. The wealthy 10% could care less if I live or die, it's all about money and taxes, period. If I vote rep I support ins companies, pharm. companies, oil companies, if I vote rep I support corporate greed and corporate welfare. I simply cant vote rep for these reasons. Dems are portrayed here on AT as "entitled and lazy", ect... The list goes on. I assure you the entitled, lazy type is a small % of a small %. I do not know any dems such as this, period. They all work hard such as myself, family and friends alongside reps who are family and friends as well. I like the idea of health care reform. I do not think this was the right time to tackle the issue. Both sides got pretty nasty, thats politics today. It passed the first major hurdle. I dont like the way it came about, but its here. If it decreases the national deficit, great. If it will help the people it truly intended to, great. You'll always have bottom feeders who'll take advantage and scate on the system, both democrat and republican. Nothing I can really do about it but vote. That's democracy. Now if you want to beat me up PERSONALLY because I am a dem, have at it. I'm a big boy. BUT I'm a dem and I probably have more guns than you and I will still tip one over with my bow this fall. [/QUOTE]

Ok I slightly disagree with your theories here. You support a flat tax because that's fair? Which I also support, man was created equal... some work harder than others, why punish them? Yet you seem to have a disconnect between people and industries. There seems to be a hatred toward certain industries and their profits. These industries and companies in them are created from the ground up like any other "non hated" company, by hardworking americans that had an equal opportunity to fail as to succeed. They are the ones making the decisions that will decide whether a company will fail or succeed, which in turn creates a risk of failure. Who do you want making these decisions? Personally I would want my bosses to be the most knowledgeable our company could go out and find which in turn will guarantee a steady job I can count on in the future. Yet people demonize them because they are the few that are capable of doing the job and are accordingly rewarded for it. The oil companies, drug companies and insurance companies are businesses that employ millions of americans, who work on a very limited profit margin. Just please look at the faces of the people who create the company and not just its logo. Thanks.


----------



## MNmike

*What have you?*



TPG said:


> So what have you done for them?
> Are you helping out with all the guys who are messed up after spending multiple tours overseas?
> Are you there helping out and giving money to Wounded Warrior or any of the myriad of other groups that are doing *WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING?*
> Every single one of you with your ******ed made in china ribbons on your cars should be ashamed.


Or are you saying it should be only government helping vets out?

I donate my friendship and time to local vets. Is this something wrong?

I agree the Gov owes them.


----------



## sataug2788

AKM said:


> The cost of labor was/is only a small part of the problem with the auto industry. The biggest problem was the lifetime benefits that were so outrageous.


And the multi-million dollar bonus checks or the outragous saleries that the CEO's get have nothing to do with the down fall of the auto industry?


----------



## badomen

sataug2788 said:


> And the multi-million dollar bonus checks or the outragous saleries that the CEO's get have nothing to do with the down fall of the auto industry?


Short answer: No, them caving to the demands of the unions is. Either way it's their fault so in no way we should be bailing them out. All bailing them out will do is encourage more union power and less responsibility for the ceo's decisions.


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## rn3

badomen said:


> Short answer: No, them caving to the demands of the unions is. Either way it's their fault so in no way we should be bailing them out. All bailing them out will do is encourage more union power and less responsibility for the ceo's decisions.


Yea should have let them fail and put thousands of more people in the unemployment line at the time the country was in the deepest part of the recession. That would have really helped, but hay we put those good for nothing unions in their place.


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## badomen

Well I guess my question to you is where do we draw our line in the sand when it comes to charity? How big does the business have to be before we bring them back from the dead? Would they bail out my business if I made bad decisions? Doubtful... America needs cars, another business would take the place... that's how a free market works. We need to think with our heads and not our hearts. Simply put : you teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime, you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. They will not learn anything by giving them the fish


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## sataug2788

badomen said:


> Short answer: No, them caving to the demands of the unions is. Either way it's their fault so in no way we should be bailing them out. All bailing them out will do is encourage more union power and less responsibility for the ceo's decisions.


So you are saying it's wrong for the CEO's to pay the blue collar workers a fair wage and benefits but it's ok for them to be flying around in private jets and living like kings.
Unions are not the enemy, corporate greed is.


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## badomen

sataug2788 said:


> So you are saying it's wrong for the CEO's to pay the blue collar workers a fair wage and benefits but it's ok for them to be flying around in private jets and living like kings.
> Unions are not the enemy, corporate greed is.


When union workers are making double what someone else who does an equal job then I feel the unions are the enemy. The left has pounded into everyone's heads for the past hundred years redistribution of wealth and equality. If youre jealous of people making more than you then maybe you should work a little bit harder then you currently are. The real enemy of the state are the beliefs of people they are entitled to another mans wealth. Beliefs like this lead to socialistic leaders and in turn socialist governments. If everyone were equal there would be nobody to start businesses which in turn would lead to no jobs and no economy. You cant legislate morality... greed is a natural human emotion and its what makes this economy work. And if you think greed will go away with a socialistic government youre wrong, the only change will be your lack of freedom.


----------



## sataug2788

badomen said:


> When union workers are making double what someone else who does an equal job then I feel the unions are the enemy. The left has pounded into everyone's heads for the past hundred years redistribution of wealth and equality. If youre jealous of people making more than you then maybe you should work a little bit harder then you currently are. The real enemy of the state are the beliefs of people they are entitled to another mans wealth. Beliefs like this lead to socialistic leaders and in turn socialist governments. If everyone were equal there would be nobody to start businesses which in turn would lead to no jobs and no economy. You cant legislate morality... greed is a natural human emotion and its what makes this economy work. And if you think greed will go away with a socialistic government youre wrong, the only change will be your lack of freedom.


First off, I worked at 2 different shops doing the exact same job, one was non-union and one was union and I can tell you I wasn't making anywhere near double at the union shop.

Second, I'm not jealous of anyone and I work my butt off at every job i've ever had. I don't think im entitled to another mans wealth but I do believe in being payed a fair wage for my hard work. I don't believe for one minute that these big businesses aren't making money and i'll tell you why.

The one shop I worked for had monthly meetings and they brought in a person from upper management to talk to us, he made a statement that last months projected earnings was 2.4 million but we fell short at 1.4 million so we lost 1 million, so I said to him how did you come up with we are loosing that money that they just didn't make as much as they thought they would. Now this pissed him off and he wouldn't talk about it anymore. This company was claiming they were loosing around 10 million per year. I call BS, if they lost that kind of money they would have closed the doors.

The other company I worked for, the new owner came in and bought the building and put it in another company name, which he owned, and was claiming lease payments to himself to keep profits down and he could claim his business was operating in the red when it really wasn't.

These are just a few tricks big business use to make it look like they aren't making money. Corporate greed is the problem, GM would pay their employees minimun wage with no benefits if they could get away with it and they would still find a way to claim they are loosing money.


----------



## illinoislandog

badomen said:


> Look let me get something straight, I am a conservative dem, I was merely responding to some insurance man whining about how the HCB was going to effect him personally. I hunt and fish, I support gun rights, I do not believe in abortion, but I also dont think the gov has the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body. I do not support same sex marriage. I do not support "special" rights for anyone or any race. I dont like welfare, to people or corporations. I believe in equality for all. Saying that, I feel the wealthy shouldn't have special tax rates. If a person who makes 50,000 pays 20%, then a person who makes 1,000,000 should pay 20%. You make more money, you pay more taxes, plain and simple. I would like a flat tax rate. When rep are in control the tax rates are set up when you make a certain amount or are wealthy, then your tax rate decreases and then you can scate all the way to the bank. I support unions in theory, But they have major flaws that need to be addressed. My father was in the UAW for many years. He worked hard for many years and honestly I think you could count the days he missed on one hand. He was a dem as most my family. He stood on the concrete for many years doing skilled labor. It takes its toll on a worker, they pretty much give their life for the company. The company makes billions in profits, the upper management makes outragious salaries and bonuses, and the union assures the workers earn a descent wage+ piece of the pie. I do believe in a lot of the rep agenda, BUT if I vote rep, I am suporting the wealthy 10%. The wealthy 10% could care less if I live or die, it's all about money and taxes, period. If I vote rep I support ins companies, pharm. companies, oil companies, if I vote rep I support corporate greed and corporate welfare. I simply cant vote rep for these reasons. Dems are portrayed here on AT as "entitled and lazy", ect... The list goes on. I assure you the entitled, lazy type is a small % of a small %. I do not know any dems such as this, period. They all work hard such as myself, family and friends alongside reps who are family and friends as well. I like the idea of health care reform. I do not think this was the right time to tackle the issue. Both sides got pretty nasty, thats politics today. It passed the first major hurdle. I dont like the way it came about, but its here. If it decreases the national deficit, great. If it will help the people it truly intended to, great. You'll always have bottom feeders who'll take advantage and scate on the system, both democrat and republican. Nothing I can really do about it but vote. That's democracy. Now if you want to beat me up PERSONALLY because I am a dem, have at it. I'm a big boy. BUT I'm a dem and I probably have more guns than you and I will still tip one over with my bow this fall.


Ok I slightly disagree with your theories here. You support a flat tax because that's fair? Which I also support, man was created equal... some work harder than others, why punish them? Yet you seem to have a disconnect between people and industries. There seems to be a hatred toward certain industries and their profits. These industries and companies in them are created from the ground up like any other "non hated" company, by hardworking americans that had an equal opportunity to fail as to succeed. They are the ones making the decisions that will decide whether a company will fail or succeed, which in turn creates a risk of failure. Who do you want making these decisions? Personally I would want my bosses to be the most knowledgeable our company could go out and find which in turn will guarantee a steady job I can count on in the future. Yet people demonize them because they are the few that are capable of doing the job and are accordingly rewarded for it. The oil companies, drug companies and insurance companies are businesses that employ millions of americans, who work on a very limited profit margin. Just please look at the faces of the people who create the company and not just its logo. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

These industrys and companies are lobby driven ,partisan backed and have bilked the American consumers for years. They have fealt "untouchable" and have conducted their business policies accordingly.


----------



## badomen

sataug2788 said:


> First off, I worked at 2 different shops doing the exact same job, one was non-union and one was union and I can tell you I wasn't making anywhere near double at the union shop.
> 
> Second, I'm not jealous of anyone and I work my butt off at every job i've ever had. I don't think im entitled to another mans wealth but I do believe in being payed a fair wage for my hard work. I don't believe for one minute that these big businesses aren't making money and i'll tell you why.
> 
> The one shop I worked for had monthly meetings and they brought in a person from upper management to talk to us, he made a statement that last months projected earnings was 2.4 million but we fell short at 1.4 million so we lost 1 million, so I said to him how did you come up with we are loosing that money that they just didn't make as much as they thought they would. Now this pissed him off and he wouldn't talk about it anymore. This company was claiming they were loosing around 10 million per year. I call BS, if they lost that kind of money they would have closed the doors.
> 
> The other company I worked for, the new owner came in and bought the building and put it in another company name, which he owned, and was claiming lease payments to himself to keep profits down and he could claim his business was operating in the red when it really wasn't.
> 
> These are just a few tricks big business use to make it look like they aren't making money. Corporate greed is the problem, GM would pay their employees minimun wage with no benefits if they could get away with it and they would still find a way to claim they are loosing money.


Ok well I'm confused because if you weren't jealous of what your bosses made then why would you care? You should be happy if they are making money and be glad they are successful. They didn't have to take a risk of starting a business and in turn hiring you. If someone didn't take that risk you would be complaining because there are no jobs. And the more people out there taking a risk of running businesses means there are more jobs out there which in turn would mean someone with a high skill level like yourself is in higher demand which would mean you make more money. I also find it hard to believe you weren't making close to double including the extra benefits at your union job. The average UAW worker makes $75 and hour if you add in their benefits. The unions have been putting robots and china to work for quite a while now. Businesses cant afford the liability and cost of hiring a union worker so their either use robots or build a factory overseas. They also cant afford to do business in the U.S. due to the corporate tax rates. And the businesses that do stay in the U.S. that can actually pass their tax costs on to the consumer (which every single business does) are diminishing group. So when people say TAX BIG BUSINESS!!! They are in turn either sending their job overseas or raising the cost of the products that they themselves purchase. So they are really just taxing themselves. Smart move...


----------



## sataug2788

badomen said:


> Ok well I'm confused because if you weren't jealous of what your bosses made then why would you care? You should be happy if they are making money and be glad they are successful. They didn't have to take a risk of starting a business and in turn hiring you. If someone didn't take that risk you would be complaining because there are no jobs. And the more people out there taking a risk of running businesses means there are more jobs out there which in turn would mean someone with a high skill level like yourself is in higher demand which would mean you make more money. I also find it hard to believe you weren't making close to double including the extra benefits at your union job. The average UAW worker makes $75 and hour if you add in their benefits. The unions have been putting robots and china to work for quite a while now. Businesses cant afford the liability and cost of hiring a union worker so their either use robots or build a factory overseas. They also cant afford to do business in the U.S. due to the corporate tax rates. And the businesses that do stay in the U.S. that can actually pass their tax costs on to the consumer (which every single business does) are diminishing group. So when people say TAX BIG BUSINESS!!! They are in turn either sending their job overseas or raising the cost of the products that they themselves purchase. So they are really just taxing themselves. Smart move...


You got it wrong, I don't care what they make but what I do care about is they are making money and making it look like they don't and then in turn try to make the WORKERS take a pay cut, work for a longer period of time for vacation and stand with their hands out asking for money from the government. 

Neither of these shops were what i'd call a risk, one was owned by Pratt and Whitney non-union shop and the other was a minority owner which told us about the all the grant money and other breaks he got for buying this business, it WAS Turbine Airfoil Designs Inc. You can search that company and see what kind of crooks they were.

Beleive it or not, I was making 14.50hr paying $230 per month for insurance with 10 vacation days and 4 personal days at the non-union shop. At the union shop it was 17.01hr and $180 per month insurance and the rest was the same, so not even close to double. As for UAW workers, I have no idea what they make but if thats what it is, GM either has the money to pay it or they have some real stupid people negotiating contracts for them.

They go overseas because it's cheaper I agree. Instead of paying an American a fair wage, they would much rather pay some yellow person $2 bucks a day. I'm not saying tax big business but the government needs to start looking at the funny math on the books of big companies before they start giving handouts or stop handouts altogether.


----------



## rn3

badomen said:


> Ok well I'm confused because if you weren't jealous of what your bosses made then why would you care? You should be happy if they are making money and be glad they are successful. They didn't have to take a risk of starting a business and in turn hiring you. If someone didn't take that risk you would be complaining because there are no jobs. And the more people out there taking a risk of running businesses means there are more jobs out there which in turn would mean someone with a high skill level like yourself is in higher demand which would mean you make more money. I also find it hard to believe you weren't making close to double including the extra benefits at your union job. The average UAW worker makes $75 and hour if you add in their benefits. The unions have been putting robots and china to work for quite a while now. Businesses cant afford the liability and cost of hiring a union worker so their either use robots or build a factory overseas. They also cant afford to do business in the U.S. due to the corporate tax rates. And the businesses that do stay in the U.S. that can actually pass their tax costs on to the consumer (which every single business does) are diminishing group. So when people say TAX BIG BUSINESS!!! They are in turn either sending their job overseas or raising the cost of the products that they themselves purchase. So they are really just taxing themselves. Smart move...


Did you know that the $75 labor is fuzzy math that includes all of the retirees pension and benefits in the active workers hourly rate. It is just the way they work the books. With your thinking I bet your also overpaid.


----------



## badomen

rn3 said:


> Did you know that the $75 labor is fuzzy math that includes all of the retirees pension and benefits in the active workers hourly rate. It is just the way they work the books. With your thinking I bet your also overpaid.


How is including those things fuzzy? Cost is cost no matter where its coming from. I work with my father and only make $15 an hour. Why do I make that? Because that's what an equipment operator is worth. Actually I'm probably slightly overpaid for my position, but that's the benefits of being the boss' son. A UAW worker that is just working the line at the factory does mindless work that requires no college education or real intensive training. So in my opinion I would think a fair compensation would be around $12 per hour with benefits. Please tell me if you would, what makes them worth more? just because they have a thug union demanding higher wages? I can see no other qualifications.


----------



## illinoislandog

badomen said:


> Ok well I'm confused because if you weren't jealous of what your bosses made then why would you care? You should be happy if they are making money and be glad they are successful. They didn't have to take a risk of starting a business and in turn hiring you. If someone didn't take that risk you would be complaining because there are no jobs. And the more people out there taking a risk of running businesses means there are more jobs out there which in turn would mean someone with a high skill level like yourself is in higher demand which would mean you make more money. I also find it hard to believe you weren't making close to double including the extra benefits at your union job. The average UAW worker makes $75 and hour if you add in their benefits. The unions have been putting robots and china to work for quite a while now. Businesses cant afford the liability and cost of hiring a union worker so their either use robots or build a factory overseas. They also cant afford to do business in the U.S. due to the corporate tax rates. And the businesses that do stay in the U.S. that can actually pass their tax costs on to the consumer (which every single business does) are diminishing group. So when people say TAX BIG BUSINESS!!! They are in turn either sending their job overseas or raising the cost of the products that they themselves purchase. So they are really just taxing themselves. Smart move...



$28.00 an hour is the average wage for a UAW worker. "Total cost" I don't know, but it surely is NOWHERE near 75.


----------



## rn3

badomen said:


> How is including those things fuzzy? Cost is cost no matter where its coming from. I work with my father and only make $15 an hour. Why do I make that? Because that's what an equipment operator is worth. Actually I'm probably slightly overpaid for my position, but that's the benefits of being the boss' son. A UAW worker that is just working the line at the factory does mindless work that requires no college education or real intensive training. So in my opinion I would think a fair compensation would be around $12 per hour with benefits. Please tell me if you would, what makes them worth more? just because they have a thug union demanding higher wages? I can see no other qualifications.


When your father retires and starts to collect the money he put into his 401k or whatever kind of retirement investments he paid to him self out of company funds, should that be counted as part of your hourly wage.

They get paid what they make because the work is physical. You don't have a clue as to how hard a autoworker works and that includes the transplants.


----------



## fap1800

illinoislandog said:


> $28.00 an hour is the average wage for a UAW worker. "Total cost" I don't know, but it surely is NOWHERE near 75.


actually it is $71/hour. rn3 is correct though. that figure includes the cost to cover lifetime benefits. but here's the problem...gm has approximately 440,000 retirees in north america. assuming that current uaw employees will receive the same life time benefits as current retirees then it is fair to say that $71/hour is the realized cost. the uaw needs to concede more than just the "job bank" otherwise gm will never make a profit simply because they won't be able to compete and the taxpayer will have to bail them out again. 

speaking of the job bank, did you know that uaw employees currently receive $450/week in supplemental unemployment. gee i wonder if they collect gov't unemployment as well? that's a pretty nice chunk of change to sit on your butt.


----------



## illinoislandog

fap1800 said:


> actually it is $71/hour. rn3 is correct though. that figure includes the cost to cover lifetime benefits. but here's the problem...gm has approximately 440,000 retirees in north america. assuming that current uaw employees will receive the same life time benefits as current retirees then it is fair to say that $71/hour is the realized cost. the uaw needs to concede more than just the "job bank" otherwise gm will never make a profit simply because they won't be able to compete and the taxpayer will have to bail them out again.
> 
> speaking of the job bank, did you know that uaw employees currently receive $450/week in supplemental unemployment. gee i wonder if they collect gov't unemployment as well? that's a pretty nice chunk of change to sit on your butt.


Yeah, for many, devoting their lives to a company, that 450 is way to much.
All that sitting, wondering if they will lose their house, pay the utilities, take care of their families, ect...BUT the upper management, who are ACTUALLY part of the company as well, might be wondering what stocks to buy, what color the next beemer will be, ect...Are bloated salaries not a problem as well?


----------



## rn3

fap1800 said:


> actually it is $71/hour. rn3 is correct though. that figure includes the cost to cover lifetime benefits. but here's the problem...gm has approximately 440,000 retirees in north america. assuming that current uaw employees will receive the same life time benefits as current retirees then it is fair to say that $71/hour is the realized cost. the uaw needs to concede more than just the "job bank" otherwise gm will never make a profit simply because they won't be able to compete and the taxpayer will have to bail them out again.
> 
> speaking of the job bank, did you know that uaw employees currently receive $450/week in supplemental unemployment. gee i wonder if they collect gov't unemployment as well? that's a pretty nice chunk of change to sit on your butt.


The total labor cost to build a vehicle is between 8 and 10% this includes hourly and salary combined. Material is the single biggest cost in building a vehicle. Now that the VEBA has kicked in the labor cost are more like $50 an hour. Labor is not GM's problem over capacity is, which they are getting straightened out.


----------



## illinoislandog

rn3 said:


> The total labor cost to build a vehicle is between 8 and 10% this includes hourly and salary combined. Material is the single biggest cost in building a vehicle. Now that the VEBA has kicked in the labor cost are more like $50 an hour. Labor is not GM's problem over capacity is, which they are getting straightened out.


50 an hour would be a more believable true labor cost. Streamlining the product line or models manufactured will be a good move on GM's part. Their were just way to many models, simply cant counter every other manufacturers models. "Focus" on what works and build on that.


----------



## fap1800

illinoislandog said:


> Yeah, for many, devoting their lives to a company, that 450 is way to much.
> All that sitting, wondering if they will lose their house, pay the utilities, take care of their families, ect...BUT the upper management, who are ACTUALLY part of the company as well, might be wondering what stocks to buy, what color the next beemer will be, ect...Are bloated salaries not a problem as well?


this is your problem...class envy. the haves vs. the have nots. you need to get over that because the unfortunate reality of a capitalist economy is that there are going to be wealthy individuals, most of whom worked hard to get where they are. hence, the beemers and the excess cash to invest in their multiple portfolios. would you feel better if they were all down at your level or my level? what does that do for our standard of living? nada.


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## fap1800

rn3 said:


> The total labor cost to build a vehicle is between 8 and 10% this includes hourly and salary combined. Material is the single biggest cost in building a vehicle. Now that the VEBA has kicked in the labor cost are more like $50 an hour. Labor is not GM's problem over capacity is, which they are getting straightened out.


i believe i read that its around $54. toyota is about $8/hour cheaper. VEBA doesn't affect the retirees though...just current employees. 400,000 retired employees just aren't going to go away overnight. it will take time for gm to turn it around. be mindful though, they will be back on capital hill asking for more money...


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## rn3

fap1800 said:


> i believe i read that its around $54. toyota is about $8/hour cheaper. VEBA doesn't affect the retirees though...just current employees. 400,000 retired employees just aren't going to go away overnight. it will take time for gm to turn it around. be mindful though, they will be back on capital hill asking for more money...


Thats were you are wrong the VEBA is for the retirees.


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## illinoislandog

fap1800 said:


> this is your problem...class envy. the haves vs. the have nots. you need to get over that because the unfortunate reality of a capitalist economy is that there are going to be wealthy individuals, most of whom worked hard to get where they are. hence, the beemers and the excess cash to invest in their multiple portfolios. would you feel better if they were all down at your level or my level? what does that do for our standard of living? nada.


Assuming my class level... thats interesting...funny thing is...when the "people" who actually manufacture a product, STOP, the company cannot continue to function. BUT if the bloated salaried people would STOP, could the company continue to function? Who is actually needed? Do we needed bloated salaries and bonuses for capitalism to work correctly? That is exactly why the country is in bad shape at this time, or am I wrong? I have absolutely no problem with wealthy individuals. Was this wealth obtained ethically or on the backs of others. Talk about entitlement, give me a break!  :wink:


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## fap1800

rn3 said:


> Thats were you are wrong the VEBA is for the retirees.


how does that work...?


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## fap1800

illinoislandog said:


> Assuming my class level... thats interesting...funny thing is...when the "people" who actually manufacture a product, STOP, the company cannot continue to function. BUT if the bloated salaried people would STOP, could the company continue to function? Who is actually needed? Do we needed bloated salaries and bonuses for capitalism to work correctly? That is exactly why the country is in bad shape at this time, or am I wrong? I have absolutely no problem with wealthy individuals. Was this wealth obtained ethically or on the backs of others. Talk about entitlement, give me a break!  :wink:


my guess is that you think all wealth is obtained on the backs of others. your worried about bonuses buy yet our government is approaching 14 trillion in debt, much of it in the hands of china. your avatar suddenly makes sense...


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## illinoislandog

fap1800 said:


> my guess is that you think all wealth is obtained on the backs of others. your worried about bonuses buy yet our government is approaching 14 trillion in debt, much of it in the hands of china. your avatar suddenly makes sense...


I'm getting dizzy...from all your spinnin...please stop!  :wink: :beer:


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## fap1800

illinoislandog said:


> I'm getting dizzy...from all your spinnin...please stop!  :wink: :beer:


i'll have another one of those...:beer::beer::beer::beer: no spin here boss...we just have a fundamental disagreement. your ideology simply differs from mine. i respectfully think you're crazy and you most likely feel the same about me.


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## badomen

rn3 said:


> When your father retires and starts to collect the money he put into his 401k or whatever kind of retirement investments he paid to him self out of company funds, should that be counted as part of your hourly wage.
> 
> They get paid what they make because the work is physical. You don't have a clue as to how hard a autoworker works and that includes the transplants.


Well first off my father doesn't have 401ks or any other investments other than his business. His retirement will be based on what he has in the bank and what he gets for the sale of the company i.e. equipment. And I could care less if he was making 20k a week as opposed to my $600 a week. It's his business and he has a right to pay his employees whatever he wants. If he isn't paying what the market value is for his employees then they would go elsewhere. You see how that works? The grass is always greener on the other side isn't it? You always see the nice cars and big salaries yet you seems to look past the years of higher education, financial planning and financial risk these people take. What do you risk if you mess up and lose your job? Nothing if you're like every other bottom feeder in the country. You go into the unemployment lines like everyone else and drag your feet trying to find another job. And people who believe they are in the middle class who worry about losing their house and cars if they lose their jobs maybe are overextending themselves? That is the real problem, people buying things they can not afford and whining and moaning when they lose their job and lose these things. Maybe they should take the responsibility and plan for things like that? But no most people will live overextended paycheck to paycheck so they can keep up with the Jones'. And what would happen if your boss messes up? I would be willing to say he has a bit more on the line then the people's who's backs he has earned his money on. And unless he's running a company with union employees or is a big bank where the socialist government will bail him out, then he is going to be left out to dry. His employees will leave him in a heartbeat no matter how loyal they are. The thought process in this country is sickening... “From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” That's Marxist thinking for ya!


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## rn3

badomen said:


> Well first off my father doesn't have 401ks or any other investments other than his business. His retirement will be based on what he has in the bank and what he gets for the sale of the company i.e. equipment. And I could care less if he was making 20k a week as opposed to my $600 a week. It's his business and he has a right to pay his employees whatever he wants. If he isn't paying what the market value is for his employees then they would go elsewhere. You see how that works? The grass is always greener on the other side isn't it? You always see the nice cars and big salaries yet you seems to look past the years of higher education, financial planning and financial risk these people take. What do you risk if you mess up and lose your job? Nothing if you're like every other bottom feeder in the country. You go into the unemployment lines like everyone else and drag your feet trying to find another job. And people who believe they are in the middle class who worry about losing their house and cars if they lose their jobs maybe are overextending themselves? That is the real problem, people buying things they can not afford and whining and moaning when they lose their job and lose these things. Maybe they should take the responsibility and plan for things like that? But no most people will live overextended paycheck to paycheck so they can keep up with the Jones'. And what would happen if your boss messes up? I would be willing to say he has a bit more on the line then the people's who's backs he has earned his money on. And unless he's running a company with union employees or is a big bank where the socialist government will bail him out, then he is going to be left out to dry. His employees will leave him in a heartbeat no matter how loyal they are. The thought process in this country is sickening... “From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” That's Marxist thinking for ya!


You completely missed the point I was trying to make to you, so go on back to work and enjoy your 600 a week.


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## badomen

rn3 said:


> You completely missed the point I was trying to make to you, so go on back to work and enjoy your 600 a week.


I know what you meant. I just dont see how you can compare a bosses retirement out of his own business investments to paying for retirees that arent contributing to the company in any way. And as far as hard work goes... buddy you dont know hard work until you are in the logging business like my father and I are, let alone a uaw worker. Follow me around in the woods for a day and you'll wish you were on the assembly line. And I will enjoy my paycheck. i'm glad to get it each week and never take it for granted. And when the time comes i'll buy the business, and be able to live very comfortably. But if youre ever interested in getting an honest days work in come up to maine and I'll put ya to it. :darkbeer:


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## illinoislandog

badomen said:


> I know what you meant. I just dont see how you can compare a bosses retirement out of his own business investments to paying for retirees that arent contributing to the company in any way. And as far as hard work goes... buddy you dont know hard work until you are in the logging business like my father and I are, let alone a uaw worker. Follow me around in the woods for a day and you'll wish you were on the assembly line. And I will enjoy my paycheck. i'm glad to get it each week and never take it for granted. And when the time comes i'll buy the business, and be able to live very comfortably. But if youre ever interested in getting an honest days work in come up to maine and I'll put ya to it. :darkbeer:


One of my good friends a logger. I'm his birddog, get a cut for jobs found for him. He's a workin fool. Here's to ya :darkbeer:


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## badomen

illinoislandog said:


> One of my good friends a logger. I'm his birddog, get a cut for jobs found for him. He's a workin fool. Here's to ya :darkbeer:


Thanks! :cheers:


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