# Combine Barebow and Bowhunter



## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Combine them! I compete in BH as Gary knows and we regularly compete against the BB guys in most tourneys out here anyway.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Combine them. I shoot a BH setup in BB anyways because there is a bigger chance to have another shooter in my class in BB. There aren't enough of us left for two classes that similar and I'd rather shoot against someone than in alone in the class.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Gary this is either music to some or like finger nails scratching a chalk board to others, this has been talked about in the past but has not been acted upon. What is needed is to contact every BH and BB shooter in each state and see what they say and then get an agenda item for the meeting in Feb. I would suggest that you get in touch with Denny Cline (President of BB Fraturnity) and have them get in touch with the members to get feed back.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

As long as I can shoot my compound in the trad class no prob.
I shoot trad but just use a compound.
Isn't it the same for a bowhunter having to shoot against a barebow shooter?
Just my 2 cents.
Don.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I think it will come down to them combining both or getting rid of both.

I think some concessions from both sides could be made like keep the stabs and string walking but get rid of the clickers. I would say get rid of string walking like the IBO did for MCU but there is too much history with it in the NFAA since it started there. BTW, I looked at a few scores and there really isn't much of a difference between the two classes in terms of 3D scores.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Supermag1 said:


> I think it will come down to them combining both or getting rid of both.
> 
> I think some concessions from both sides could be made like keep the stabs and string walking but get rid of the clickers. I would say get rid of string walking like the IBO did for MCU but there is too much history with it in the NFAA since it started there. BTW, I looked at a few scores and there really isn't much of a difference between the two classes in terms of 3D scores.


I don't think there is a chance in hell of the Nfaa getting rid of both or either of those classes. The only way there would be a merging of the classes would be if there is enough unity among the nonsight shooters.I definitely agree that the Nfaa should cut their number of classes to Freestyle, Freestyle limited, nonsight, and trad. If they would do it and stand by their guns, I feel they would grow by leaps and bounds after the initial " If they won't give me a class so I can win a trophy I'm going to quit " reactions of some.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

If you look at NFAA scores the Bowhunter records are higher than Barebow so for me the clicker is no big deal and I guarantee the BB guys won't give up the clicker. my thoughts are just shoot what you bring nonsight.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Drop both along with Trad and BHFS.
Then stand-up a Recurve BB class.

3 classes just like WA/FITA do for Field. It's working well for them (although I'd like to see Rec BB officially recognized for Target). WA Field is a growing sport, something that NFAA Field hasn't been able to claim for decades.

I know this is going to step on a lot of the older toes around here. The glory days of the NFAA are done and unless a major move towards matching other organizations equipment rules are made it's going to end-up being nothing.

-Grant


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

my 74 year old toes feel fine .


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

We only need 4 classes....
Recurve 

Recurve BB

Compound unlimited 

Compound limited (no sights)

Our classes as they stand are so diluted you are lucky to get to shoot against anyone. Shoot what ya brought.....


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## AMBB (Aug 22, 2008)

2413gary said:


> If you look at NFAA scores the Bowhunter records are higher than Barebow so for me the clicker is no big deal and I guarantee the BB guys won't give up the clicker. my thoughts are just shoot what you bring nonsight.


I must defend BB's honor here. I must. I must. Especially since it's been an on-going tournament within a tournament for a couple of decades on the east coast. :smile: I think if you check all the 5 day nationals and 3 day nationals across the age brackets BB has an overwhelming majority of the top scores. :rock: 

On a more serious note.. I wouldn't have any problem with just the 4 "styles" mentioned but not having any divisions based on age would be a bummer, but I could live with it. 
Loosing the clicker would be a BIG deal with many BB shooters.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Ben is right, it would take a majority of both to allow a merg of the two and unless that happens it would be over my dead body. That is why I told Gary to contact the BB Fraturnity President.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

BH shooter here so...
Not stirring the pot, just pointing something out. We all know that it’s way early at this point of this thread to say that we’ve hard enough information to make a good decision on this topic. Having shot around, with, against many archers that come from the BB ranks I can tell that you that those BB shooters are just as loyal to their chosen style as us BH shooters (as we all should be). Carrying on the tradition of your class is something that was instilled into me by my mentor Frank McCubbins (and I thank him for that).
Now that the above disclaimer is out of the way...
I could be wrong about this but IMHO I believe that *IT’S COMING*. The day when the NFAA pairs our beloved BH / BB classes together. We should take this opportunity to build into the class the things we want instead of what we’ve left with. I’m not saying I’m ready to give up. NOPE, I’m very much a traditional oriented person and I HATE giving up any ground but lets be real. We’ve heard about the possibility of this for a few years now. Basically, lets be pro-active, not reactive. Maybe, just maybe, their might be a silver lining to this whole thing.

On a side note; for me I enjoy competing against the BB guys with their extra stuff. Even if there is a combination of these two classes into one, I’ll be shooting BH. (again, thanks Frank)


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

archer_nm said:


> Ben is right, it would take a majority of both to allow a merg of the two and unless that happens it would be over my dead body. That is why I told Gary to contact the BB Fraturnity President.


So maybe we need to get all the BH/BB guys together at Darrington and discuss this?


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## USCG Barebow (Feb 17, 2004)

Combine them. IBO does.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Some of us won't be at Darrington and we can't forget the folks that only shoot their states tournaments, we need to get this out to all of the nonsight compound shooters (Trad has their own issues) and get a real majority.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Some of us won't be at Darrington and we can't forget the folks that only shoot their states tournaments, we need to get this out to all of the nonsight compound shooters (Trad has their own issues) and get a real majority.


But on the other hand, Bob, the archers who support and attend the major tournaments should have the say in what goes down. I realize there are a lot of "Joes" out there but it seems like the Nfaa only puts a premium importance on major tournament numbers, so, why shouldn't we?


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Ben the problem lies in the joes, the state Directors need them to be their voice so unless they get the direction from the Joes they will not vote for it. The Council can't do it on their own with the exception of Vegas And the classic.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Just ask yourselves this:

How many new people are taking-up BH or BB, not including those who did it in the past?
How many people currently shooting BH or BB are either Senior or Master Senior age?

In Washington adult BB and BH were uncontested for indoor, field and 3D the last 2 years running (with the exception of an adult JOAD shooting Rec BB). Probably longer, I just don't feel like looking in the results.
During that time there was one 1 BB shooter who is a Mast Senior.

Finger shooting in the NFAA is dying simply because there are too many classes and only one (FSL-R) lines-up with any other organization. WA Field/3D has 3 classes and is a growing sport.
The future of finger shooting is recurve divisions and the way to grow them is to match the equipment and technique of as many other organizations as possible. Preferably international ones.

-Grant


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

rsarns said:


> We only need 4 classes....
> Recurve
> 
> Recurve BB
> ...



Im a fan of this.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I stand corrected


AMBB said:


> I must defend BB's honor here. I must. I must. Especially since it's been an on-going tournament within a tournament for a couple of decades on the east coast. :smile: I think if you check all the 5 day nationals and 3 day nationals across the age brackets BB has an overwhelming majority of the top scores. :rock:
> 
> On a more serious note.. I wouldn't have any problem with just the 4 "styles" mentioned but not having any divisions based on age would be a bummer, but I could live with it.
> Loosing the clicker would be a BIG deal with many BB shooters.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

AMBB, Just a friendly reminder that Their is no overwhelming majority of bb scores over bh scores in the record books. This is just a brushup on the facts for you. The Highest 5-day aggregate ever was by BB shooter Brad Marshall with a 2629. A BH , Ben Rogers has the next highest aggregate ever by non sight shooter with a 2618. Next in line would be another BH shooter, Jim Brown, with a 2605. The highest Individual round ever shot at the nationals was a 526 by A BH, Ben Rogers. Next was a 525 by a BB shooter, Brad Marshall then 521's by Jim Brown and Denny Cline, a BH and a BB respectively. The highest combined field score was a 1034 by BH Jim Brown followed by a 1031 by BB Denny Cline and 1025 by BH Rogers. The highest combined hunter rounds ever were recorded by BB Mr. marshall with a 1045, followed by BH Mr. Rogers with a 1043. I'm not sure why the NFAA decided to post the three day best of five scores as seperate records but if you went back to the original 5 day records and pulled the best three scores in either BB or BH, the 5 day record holders would still have all the records and that was before the spot was counted on the animal round. Obviously, string walking should be the more accurate style of shooting but the old bowhunter group took great pride in beating the BB scores and for a 6 year period from 1985 to 1990 we did post the higher scores at the outdoor nationals


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## AMBB (Aug 22, 2008)

You're taking this too seriously but since you brought up some of my scores and thought I needed a brush up on the facts... I did mention top scores in my post, i.e. records. 
BB holds 5 day aggregate, 5 day hunter, and the only two perfects ever shot on the animal around in the nationals prior to spots. (Frank Gandy '67 and me in '00). BH holds the 5-day field. That's 3 out of 4 5-day records for BB. You can also dig deeper and check out how many times a BB or BH shot over 500 every day of the 5 day nationals. Jim and I had a great time raggin on each other during the various nationals just as we did during the BB fraternity picnics. 

I'll shoot BB till I can't draw the bow, no matter what style they put me in just as I'm sure most of the BH archers will. The only shoots we see same style competitors in are the big ones so it's just shooting for personal bests, records, or trying to beat any other finger shooter that happens to be shooting. What more can you ask for?

Cheers, Brad



itbeso said:


> AMBB, Just a friendly reminder that Their is no overwhelming majority of bb scores over bh scores in the record books. This is just a brushup on the facts for you. The Highest 5-day aggregate ever was by BB shooter Brad Marshall with a 2629. A BH , Ben Rogers has the next highest aggregate ever by non sight shooter with a 2618. Next in line would be another BH shooter, Jim Brown, with a 2605. The highest Individual round ever shot at the nationals was a 526 by A BH, Ben Rogers. Next was a 525 by a BB shooter, Brad Marshall then 521's by Jim Brown and Denny Cline, a BH and a BB respectively. The highest combined field score was a 1034 by BH Jim Brown followed by a 1031 by BB Denny Cline, a 1030 by BB Brad Marshall,and 1025 by BH Rogers. The highest combined hunter rounds ever were recorded by BB Mr. marshall with a 1045, followed by BH Mr. Rogers with a 1043. I'm not sure why the NFAA decided to post the three day best of five scores as seperate records but if you went back to the original 5 day records and pulled the best three scores in either BB or BH, the 5 day record holders would still have all the records and that was before the spot was counted on the animal round. Obviously, string walking should be the more accurate style of shooting but the old bowhunter group took great pride in beating the BB scores and for a 6 year period from 1985 to 1990 we did post the higher scores at the outdoor nationals


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

AMBB said:


> You're taking this too seriously but since you brought up some of my scores and thought I needed a brush up on the facts... I did mention top scores in my post, i.e. records.
> BB holds 5 day aggregate, 5 day hunter, and the only two perfects ever shot on the animal around in the nationals prior to spots. (Frank Gandy '67 and me in '00). BH holds the 5-day field. That's 3 out of 4 5-day records for BB. You can also dig deeper and check out how many times a BB or BH shot over 500 every day of the 5 day nationals. Jim and I had a great time raggin on each other during the various nationals just as we did during the BB fraternity picnics.
> 
> I'll shoot BB till I can't draw the bow, no matter what style they put me in just as I'm sure most of the BH archers will. The only shoots we see same style competitors in are the big ones so it's just shooting for personal bests, records, or trying to beat any other finger shooter that happens to be shooting. What more can you ask for?
> ...


Not taking it seriously at all, Brad, but since you were quite explicit in saying that the BB shooters overwhelmingly outpaced the BH shooters, I think I showed that to be a pretty close Competition. I did point out that during my era, the BH scores were higher every year for 6 straight years than the BBer's. And i would welcome your research into who shot over 500 everyday at the nationals. I think you will find that the ONLY person to do it for four years in a row was a BH and the only reason it wasn't 5 years in a row was because the Nfaa did not let me compete in 1986 so I had to settle for a 522 at our state and a 527 in an exhibition at the SW sectional shooting with other banned shooters and you subletly left out the fact that the highest single round ever at the Nationals was by a BH. With all that said, I have the greatest respect for your accomplishments. Well done.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> But on the other hand, Bob, the archers who support and attend the major tournaments should have the say in what goes down. I realize there are a lot of "Joes" out there but it seems like the Nfaa only puts a premium importance on major tournament numbers, so, why shouldn't we?


Umm, No.
One could go on and on (thats me) but suffice to say, one voice - one vote. 
Lets not take an elitist approach and determine the value of someones input on the basis of having or not having the privilege of being at nationals.
Believe me, after loosing my job and having to start over again, I look back over the years and the shoots I’ve made and I know now that making those tournaments was a special privilege. But that does not make me or anyone else for that matter better suited to decide whats best for the whole.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boyd said:


> Umm, No.
> One could go on and on (thats me) but suffice to say, one voice - one vote.
> Lets not take an elitist approach and determine the value of someones input on the basis of having or not having the privilege of being at nationals.
> Believe me, after loosing my job and having to start over again, I look back over the years and the shoots I’ve made and I know now that making those tournaments was a special privilege. But that does not make me or anyone else for that matter better suited to decide whats best for the whole.


Boyd, respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree. If an archer is not going to support the program( and trust me, the numbers of archers at the major shoots is THE determining factor in most decisions) then I definitely do not want that archer determining what rules I shoot by and there is nothing elitist about that attitude. For the life of me, I can't understand how in the world it makes sense to you that someone who may never compete in a tournament( of any kind) should have any say as to the rules. For the most part, the archers who show up for the state, sectional, and national are the "whole" because without them there wouldn't be a barebow or trad or bowhunter division, they would all be gone just as they were at Vegas for a year or so. So, I don't agree at all with your one voice, one vote thinking.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Boyd, respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree. If an archer is not going to support the program( and trust me, the numbers of archers at the major shoots is THE determining factor in most decisions) then I definitely do not want that archer determining what rules I shoot by and there is nothing elitist about that attitude. For the life of me, I can't understand how in the world it makes sense to you that someone who may never compete in a tournament( of any kind) should have any say as to the rules. For the most part, the archers who show up for the state, sectional, and national are the "whole" because without them there wouldn't be a barebow or trad or bowhunter division, they would all be gone just as they were at Vegas for a year or so. So, I don't agree at all with your one voice, one vote thinking.


Ben,
With your above post you’ve now clearly opened it up to all who compete at the state, sectional or national level. And from what I perceived from your other post that I quoted you from, it seemed to me that you were talking about just the archers who attend nationals. Apparently I have mistaken your use of “major tournaments” as meaning only nationals. My bad... Yes, I also consider our Oregon State Championships and the Northwest Sectionals as “Major Tournaments” right along with Nationals.

So in an effort to be clear on my end about what I mean by “one voice - one vote”. As long as the input from everyone who shoots in all the above named tournaments at their perspective State, Sectional or National level is taken into account with the same weight as an attendee to Nationals, I’m good with that.

On a side note:
I HATE (strongly dislike, it gets under my skin faster then stupid drivers on the high-way) how the typed word via any internet forum or phone text can be taken incorrectly.
Ben, I have respect for you as well and I do believe (now) you and I are saying the same thing.

This is what is driving me to give my input at this juncture. Knowing that I, along with a very close friend of mine, will not be able to attend the 2013 nationals, I did not want to have our input discredited just on the basis of not being present. Because life has taken me down a different road lately does not mean I’ve lost my passion for the great sport of archery or the most excellent class of BH.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boyd said:


> Ben,
> With your above post you’ve now clearly opened it up to all who compete at the state, sectional or national level. And from what I perceived from your other post that I quoted you from, it seemed to me that you were talking about just the archers who attend nationals. Apparently I have mistaken your use of “major tournaments” as meaning only nationals. My bad... Yes, I also consider our Oregon State Championships and the Northwest Sectionals as “Major Tournaments” right along with Nationals.
> 
> So in an effort to be clear on my end about what I mean by “one voice - one vote”. As long as the input from everyone who shoots in all the above named tournaments at their perspective State, Sectional or National level is taken into account with the same weight as an attendee to Nationals, I’m good with that.
> ...


Boyd, I hope you realize that I realize that not everyone can attend a National or even sectional tournament but the archers who do along with those who make an effort to attend their state events are the backbone of any of the divisions within the Nfaa and I feel their voices should be heard above all others. If they stop attending, then there:teeth: is no class for the future because it will be eliminated. As a past National Champion, I don't think anyone would overlook your input and we probably won't resolve anything on this thread but it is a good medium for discussion until we can all sit around the campfire and rag on each other face to face.:teeth:


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Boyd, I hope you realize that I realize that not everyone can attend a National or even sectional tournament but the archers who do along with those who make an effort to attend their state events are the backbone of any of the divisions within the Nfaa and I feel their voices should be heard above all others. If they stop attending, then there:teeth: is no class for the future because it will be eliminated. As a past National Champion, I don't think anyone would overlook your input and we probably won't resolve anything on this thread but it is a good medium for discussion until we can all sit around the campfire and rag on each other face to face.:teeth:


Well put my friend... Well put.





itbeso said:


> until we can all sit around the campfire and rag on each other face to face.:teeth:


Really looking forward to this.


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