# OAA Rules Draft



## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

Whoa whoa whoa.... Am I reading this correctly? OAA has gone to straight up 5 grains per pound? 280 only applies to those people that can only achieve it by going under 5 grains per pound? That at least aligns us with FCA but it's a pretty big change to the 3D realms...

Weight11.11.1.1 Shooters arrows must weigh at least five (5) grains per pound of shooting weight. Shooting weight is defined as the peak draw weight (maximum draw weight or thrust weight, which ever is greater) that is obtained within the maximum draw cycle. Shooters will be allowed 5 grains for scale differences. Shooters at the maximum end of the weight allowed for a class will be allowed two pounds for bow scale 
11.11.1.2 The five grains per pound limit will not apply if the shooter’s bow and arrow combination generates less than 280 FPS of arrow speed. If the arrow speed is higher than 280 FPS the shooter’s equipment will be subject to the five grains per pound limitation. Shooters will be allowed a 3% grace for chronograph differential. When a shooter is asked to have his or her equipment checked they will be required to choose which way they would like it checked. One way or the other, not both.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

hoody123 said:


> Whoa whoa whoa.... Am I reading this correctly? OAA has gone to straight up 5 grains per pound? 280 only applies to those people that can only achieve it by going under 5 grains per pound? That at least aligns us with FCA but it's a pretty big change to the 3D realms...
> 
> Weight11.11.1.1 Shooters arrows must weigh at least five (5) grains per pound of shooting weight. Shooting weight is defined as the peak draw weight (maximum draw weight or thrust weight, which ever is greater) that is obtained within the maximum draw cycle. Shooters will be allowed 5 grains for scale differences. Shooters at the maximum end of the weight allowed for a class will be allowed two pounds for bow scale
> 11.11.1.2 The five grains per pound limit will not apply if the shooter’s bow and arrow combination generates less than 280 FPS of arrow speed. If the arrow speed is higher than 280 FPS the shooter’s equipment will be subject to the five grains per pound limitation. Shooters will be allowed a 3% grace for chronograph differential. When a shooter is asked to have his or her equipment checked they will be required to choose which way they would like it checked. One way or the other, not both.


You are correct. The intention here was to align ourselves, as much as possible, with our national body. The speed limit has been dropped.

Now I want to see all those phantom 3D shooters that would only shoot south of the border, and not at OAA events because of the 280 rule, show up...... no excuse now  Picton should have a ton more attendance next year :wink:


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I'm on dialup and don't have time to download megabytes of data...

What's the new speed rule for crossbows in 3D?


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

Stash, Here's the Crossbow rule. It is very similar to the IBO except no draw weight limit.

*11.19.24 [OAA rule] Crossbow – CB (m), CB (f), CB (m/f)*
• Any crossbow legal in Canada
• Maximum speed of 300 feet per second (+3%)
• Bolts must be no less that 20/64ths in diameter and no shorter than 14 inches
• All bolts must be identical in type, size, fletch, point weight and overall weight
• Bolts must use at least three vanes or feathers and screw in field points
• Any type of sight may be used however, sights with magnification are limited to no more then 8x magnification.
• Crossbow must be in sound condition with a working safety
• Crossbow shall not be cocked until the archer is at the stake and preparing to shoot.
• Crossbow must be loaded while in a downward position and pointed toward the target. No crossbow may be loaded while pointed up.


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## 3D-GURU (Apr 1, 2003)

*What about binos??*



CaptainT said:


> Stash, Here's the Crossbow rule. It is very similar to the IBO except no draw weight limit.
> 
> *11.19.24 [OAA rule] Crossbow – CB (m), CB (f), CB (m/f)*
> • Any crossbow legal in Canada
> ...


I see there is a limit on magnification for scopes, what about binos??? Are a whole bunch of us going to have to get new binos now?? Because alot of us are using 10X, myself included.

Thanks,

Rob


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## #1 Hogger (Aug 17, 2005)

*binos*

Under FCA rules 11.9.1 binos will be allowed with less than 9X magnification per the manufactures specs (FITA up to 8.5)


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

So there's a speed limit for crossbows, but not for bows?

That makes sense...

Is it too late to change the rule for this year? Lots of the top-end crossbows being sold these days (Excaliburs, Middletons, Ten Points, Strykers) are rated at well over 300 with stock arrows. 350fps would make sense. 

I couldn't get an Exomax to shoot less than 310 with the heaviest arrow and point readily available, a slow string and silencers.


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## Pidge (Apr 17, 2004)

*About time*

That is great to hear. Now that bows are getting faster every year it is getting harder to keep under the 280 rule. I was never a fan of this rule but also remember when there was no speed or no arrow weight limit. Have seen more than a few bows in pieces come out of the bush. There has to be something to keep bows it in check but I think the 5 grain per pound is much better.:wink:


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Ya, It's a great rule...I'm sure all the 26, 27, and 28" draw people are happy as can be...

280 is a level playing field for everyone.

I do agree that the crossbow speed limit is pretty low...I guess we don't want any Stryker owners out there with us...:wink:


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

Grey Eagle said:


> Now I want to see all those phantom 3D shooters that would only shoot south of the border, and not at OAA events because of the 280 rule, show up...... no excuse now  Picton should have a ton more attendance next year :wink:


There will be other excuses besisdes speed this year


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm glad the speed rule is changed. First of all it was going on the honour system at most tournaments which just doesn't seem to work. For awhile I never had access to a chrono and I had no idea what my bow was shooting so how could I check my bow and make sure speed was good? 

Also I don't buy this short draw argument. There are tons of speed bows out there so if you want the speed you can have it. I have a 29" draw but if you go buy an x-force with a 27" draw you'll be smoking me in speed, should I be aloowed to complain then? 

If you want to win then get better, we all know that speed will not win it for you. 

What's the reason for a speed limit on crossbows? Doesn't make sense to me.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Speed is the only true equaliser because it takes the bow choice out of the equation. I am a firm beliver in the speed rule but with the alignment with the FCA shooting rules this was a by product that was part of the deal. The IFAA has a 300fps rule that works well on a World wide level and if the alignment hadn't happened I am sure the speed level would have been raised. 

I am sure there will be some growing pains with the new rules but this is what the archers wanted so we should have hords of new shooters next year.....???


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## ont.deerhunter (Mar 26, 2004)

*Speed*

At 27" draw I can make 280 fps with my slayer but that does not make me equal to the guy with a 31" draw at 5 gpp! You are going to see at least a 50fps variance in speeds on the 3d range! May even see more of a gap if the guys with long arms choose to shoot one of the 350fps bows. just my 2 cents.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

*There is never going to be a ruling that makes everyone happy*



ont.deerhunter said:


> At 27" draw I can make 280 fps with my slayer but that does not make me equal to the guy with a 31" draw at 5 gpp! You are going to see at least a 50fps variance in speeds on the 3d range! May even see more of a gap if the guys with long arms choose to shoot one of the 350fps bows. just my 2 cents.


True, too an extent. My dl is about 31.5", and yes I can make my Slayer do 330 easily. But you have to realize that at the increased dl, arrow setup becomes much more critical. Trust me on this, it is not very easy to setup a bow with an arrow configuration that approaches 5gpp that has any chance of being decently consistent. I've yet to find a properly spined arrow that I can use out of my setup that approaches 5 gpp with my dl and the shaft length that I need for my setup.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Exactly Dennis. The short draw archer has to shoot 5GPP to get the speed. Fagan and you can easliy pound 320 -330 FPS all day...without having to shoot a 33" ATA X-Force to do it (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Hey it's like you said, you can't please everyone with all the rules. 
I'm just happy I can shoot more then one catagory at the indoors this year...:wink:



Viper...It's not my arguement that it will create more winners. It's just that it does not equalize the playing field. I mean come on, you tell the shorties the get better if they wanna compete? What's that about? Does that seem like a fair statement? Doesn't it make more sense that if everyone on the course had bows shooting 280fps, that the best 3D shooter will win?

Maybe I'm crazy...it's probable:tongue:






Grey Eagle said:


> True, too an extent. My dl is about 31.5", and yes I can make my Slayer do 330 easily. But you have to realize that at the increased dl, arrow setup becomes much more critical. Trust me on this, it is not very easy to setup a bow with an arrow configuration that approaches 5gpp that has any chance of being decently consistent. I've yet to find a properly spined arrow that I can use out of my setup that approaches 5 gpp with my dl and the shaft length that I need for my setup.


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

ZarkSniper said:


> Viper...It's not my argument that it will create more winners. It's just that it does not equalize the playing field. I mean come on, you tell the shorties the get better if they wanna compete? What's that about? Does that seem like a fair statement? Doesn't it make more sense that if everyone on the course had bows shooting 280fps, that the best 3D shooter will win?
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy...it's probable:tongue:


Regardless the best shooter will win, that's the fact. If you want to win don't complain about speed or equipment just get better, its that simple.

If you guess the yardage right and make the shot speed does not matter. There is no barrier keeping people from winning but their own abilities. 

I think this is a fair statement to make because no matter what rules you make people will complain and use it as an excuse. At some point you just need to tell these people to get better if they want to win.

The fact is some people will have advantages over others and that is the world of competition. Some people are taller some are faster some have better hand eye coordination etc. Some people can afford better gear then me should we also have a limitation on how much equipment costs in order to level the playing field? 

Anyways I'm just going on and on and I understand we do need rules to limit some stuff. But in the end the best shooter wins. 

If I go out and buy the airborne 82 (crackers got it shooting 346 at 29", my draw length) I will not win the triple crown next year, plain and simple. But if I start shooting spots every day with my hoyt vipertec, hire a professional coach and dedicate myself to being the best I bet I could be competing for first place next summer. Well maybe not but I know the second scenario will be the best bet.


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

I think the biggest reason why the rule should have been taken out is cause it was never policed. The only tourney that had a chrono was the provincials and it was bogus. The chrono was not working right and some people got screwed. 

Some tournaments were sanctioned events and those went on the honour system while other tournaments the rule wasn't even specified. I think a scale is more accurate and easier to do.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

Viper04... You obviously don't get it.... and never will. That is why I don't shoot 3-D. I only shoot field. Jason has it figured out but I bet he is tired of pounding his head on the wall 

26.5 inch archer.... out!

ps I do shoot a crap load of spots.... come out and shoot with us.


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

araz2114 said:


> Viper04... You obviously don't get it.... and never will. That is why I don't shoot 3-D. I only shoot field. Jason has it figured out but I bet he is tired of pounding his head on the wall
> 
> 26.5 inch archer.... out!
> 
> ps I do shoot a crap load of spots.... come out and shoot with us.


Your right I don't get it. Just cause someone feels another competitor has an advantage they refuse to participate in something that is very enjoyable. I will never get that. I will never get my bow over 290 but I'm still going to shoot 3d with guys that are pumping out 330+. If i want to beat them I need to get better not increase my speed but I can still have a ton of fun competing for 5th or 6th or lower way lower.


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## ont.deerhunter (Mar 26, 2004)

*speed*

I did not want to make a big deal out of the speed rule I am just stating my 2 cents. I believe 280 fps is a much better way to level the playing field. It will not affect the number of 3-d shoots I attend as the old rule was never enforced anyways. Indoor 3-d shoots with a max range of 30 yds are not likely going to like the added cost of targets as the speeds go up and up. On the other hand dealers should sell more speed bows and 3-d targets. Alot of people used to use the same bow for spots,hunting and 3-d now they may be more attracted to a faster bow for 3-d.Hope everbody does not get drawn to a speed set up that they cannot shoot as well !! See you on the range after hunting season!!


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

My head hurts...


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

You are completely missing the point...again.

It's not about 3d not being fun, heck I would have a blast shooting a little Brave bow. It's about keeping the competitors on a more level playing field...that's all, that's it...don't read into it more than it is. This rule is NOT going to effect the #'s you see at tournaments one bit. 






Viper04 said:


> Your right I don't get it. Just cause someone feels another competitor has an advantage they refuse to participate in something that is very enjoyable. I will never get that. I will never get my bow over 290 but I'm still going to shoot 3d with guys that are pumping out 330+. If i want to beat them I need to get better not increase my speed but I can still have a ton of fun competing for 5th or 6th or lower way lower.


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## #1 Hogger (Aug 17, 2005)

*speed*

whether you favor the 28/fps or the 5/gpi everyone will never be happy/content If you feel strongly about this issue and can't live with it and other rules you can do a couple of things One is to put in a formal letter to the OAA to have it changed or brought up for consideration at the AGM or better still be at the AGM next time and let your voice be heard
just my little rant


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## Pic (Sep 12, 2003)

Like hockey...I'll never play in the pro's, but I love the sport with all my heart and give it 100% everytime, irregardless who I'm playing against.....3D means the same to me, whether I shoot 260 or 360..I go for the camaraderie, for the joy of shooting my bow and to do the best I can do....and I could care less who shoots what and at what speed. ( and yes, I do PO'd at myself for bad shots..lol)

It's unfortunate that in today's society there is so much bickering and complaining about EVRYTHING that people get involved in...they should do the things they love to do....simply because they LOVE doing it, plain and simple.

That's my .02 cents...whether or not it matters...LOL

Serge P.


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## #1 Hogger (Aug 17, 2005)

it sure does matter Serge with that kind of outlook you can shoot with me any time any place and we'll have a ball. I keep telling the kids you aren't going to make a living from this so ENJOY and then I tell the parents to back offt::focus:


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Pic said:


> Like hockey...I'll never play in the pro's, but I love the sport with all my heart and give it 100% everytime, irregardless who I'm playing against.....3D means the same to me, whether I shoot 260 or 360..I go for the camaraderie, for the joy of shooting my bow and to do the best I can do....and I could care less who shoots what and at what speed. ( and yes, I do PO'd at myself for bad shots..lol)
> 
> It's unfortunate that in today's society there is so much bickering and complaining about EVRYTHING that people get involved in...they should do the things they love to do....simply because they LOVE doing it, plain and simple.
> 
> ...


That is a great outlook and one I can certainly appreciate.

After 17 years of shooting tourny's, no rule will keep me from having fun. Do I feel strongly about the 280 rule? Yes. Will I keep shooting? Of course. Sometimes I see the logic in rules, sometimes not so much. 
I'm just stating my .02 cents. No bickering, just discussions...


Cheers


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## Pic (Sep 12, 2003)

ZarkSniper said:


> That is a great outlook and one I can certainly appreciate.
> 
> After 17 years of shooting tourny's, no rule will keep me from having fun. Do I feel strongly about the 280 rule? Yes. Will I keep shooting? Of course. Sometimes I see the logic in rules, sometimes not so much.
> I'm just stating my .02 cents. No bickering, just discussions...
> ...



I hear ya...I hear ya....:wink: :icon_salut: :boink:


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

ZarkSniper said:


> You are completely missing the point...again.
> 
> It's not about 3d not being fun, heck I would have a blast shooting a little Brave bow. It's about keeping the competitors on a more level playing field...that's all, that's it...don't read into it more than it is. This rule is NOT going to effect the #'s you see at tournaments one bit.


Your right i don't think it will affect numbers at all. I just think no speed limit makes sense, plain and simple. Let the guys shoot what they want. For the most part Ontario 3d is all about fun, there's no money to be won and no ones competing to advance in the archery world (like i said for the most part). Why make rules for the few when the majority gets dumped on? Its just easier to not have a speed rule, that's where i'm coming from.


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

ZarkSniper said:


> That is a great outlook and one I can certainly appreciate.
> 
> After 17 years of shooting tourny's, no rule will keep me from having fun. Do I feel strongly about the 280 rule? Yes. Will I keep shooting? Of course. Sometimes I see the logic in rules, sometimes not so much.
> I'm just stating my .02 cents. No bickering, just discussions...
> ...


ya Zark I'm not bickering either I loved 3D with 280 rule and I'll love it with unlimited speed. Just showing my opinion is all I'm trying to do.


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## Pidge (Apr 17, 2004)

I don't think most of the shooters are going to go wild with there speeds. If I wanted to shoot field or FITA there is a 60 lbs weight limit. Plus 60 lbs is a comfortable weight for me to shoot. I can't afford 2 complete setups one for 3D and one for FITA or Field. Maybe there should be a 300 fps rule. This might keep it fair for the short draw archers and make more long draw archers happy. You can't please everyone. Trust me I tried...lol:darkbeer:


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

*10-10-80 rule*

10% will be happy with the change, 10% will be pissed, 80% won't care either way 

At the end of the day it will be the same ole same ole. Just a bunch of folks sharing a past time and passion


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## Baldini (Mar 7, 2005)

*Oh my!!*

In my excitement to get to the speed limit stuff, I totally glossed over the distances... We just jumped up 5 yards to 50! My goodness!! I'm not sure I can see that far let alone shoot that far!!


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

Baldini said:


> In my excitement to get to the speed limit stuff, I totally glossed over the distances... We just jumped up 5 yards to 50! My goodness!! I'm not sure I can see that far let alone shoot that far!!


So does this mean targets can now be 55yds?:wink: Last year when the rule was 45 yds I remember a certain lion at a certain york tournament that was well over 45yds :zip:. Ha Ha


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Pidge said:


> I don't think most of the shooters are going to go wild with there speeds. If I wanted to shoot field or FITA there is a 60 lbs weight limit. Plus 60 lbs is a comfortable weight for me to shoot. I can't afford 2 complete setups one for 3D and one for FITA or Field. Maybe there should be a 300 fps rule. This might keep it fair for the short draw archers and make more long draw archers happy. You can't please everyone. Trust me I tried...lol:darkbeer:


Then I look down at your sig...

Moneybags...:wink:


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Pidge said:


> I don't think most of the shooters are going to go wild with there speeds. If I wanted to shoot field or FITA there is a 60 lbs weight limit. Plus 60 lbs is a comfortable weight for me to shoot. I can't afford 2 complete setups one for 3D and one for FITA or Field. Maybe there should be a 300 fps rule. This might keep it fair for the short draw archers and make more long draw archers happy. You can't please everyone. Trust me I tried...lol:darkbeer:


Then I look down at your sig...

Moneybags...:wink:

Martin Scepter4 Mag nitrous X
Martin Slayr nitrous X
Martin MV2 Fury X


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

*Crossbow speed rule*

Under the guidelines posted on the OAA website, I just e-mailed the following to Adam (OAA President)....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam:

I would like the OAA to revise the projected rule regarding a maximum speed for 3D crossbows from 300 FPS to 350 FPS. As was mentioned on the ArcheryTalk thread, a speed limit of 300 for today's common production crossbows is unreasonable. I am presenting my request as per the guidelines from the OAA website, prior to Dec. 14: 


_1-Must cite the rule that there is a desire to change, quoting the rule number and original text_
11.19.24 [OAA rule] Crossbow – CB (m), CB (f), CB (m/f)
• Any crossbow legal in Canada
• Maximum speed of 300 feet per second (+3%)
• Bolts must be no less that 20/64ths in diameter and no shorter than 14 inches
• All bolts must be identical in type, size, fletch, point weight and overall weight
• Bolts must use at least three vanes or feathers and screw in field points
• Any type of sight may be used however, sights with magnification are limited to no more then 8x magnification.
• Crossbow must be in sound condition with a working safety
• Crossbow shall not be cocked until the archer is at the stake and preparing to shoot.
• Crossbow must be loaded while in a downward position and pointed toward the target. No crossbow may be loaded while pointed up.

_2-Must have a clear background as to why the change is desired._
Using stock or commonly available arrows, most of the current production high-end crossbows shoot well over 300 FPS. These would include including Ontario-produced Excalibur (all but 2 models) and Middleton crossbows (all models), and many models of Ten Point, Parker, Darton and Hortons, and of course both of the Stryker bows. Increasing the speed limit would allow a greater number of crossbow users to participate without having to buy a specific new bow, or customizing an excessively heavy arrow and having to modify their sights. It does not seem reasonable to have no speed limit on compound bows, but impose a slower limit on crossbows. Using a "grains per pound" limit on crossbows will not work, as each model bow already has a recommended arrow weight. A speed limit of 350 would allow every current production (other then the original Stryker) crossbow and stock arrows to be useable in OAA 3D competition.

_3-Must provide clear, unambiguous wording of the "new rule"._
Change the second point to "350 feet per second"

_4-Must be presented in a textual format (letter or email) addressed to President - RE Rules change. Confirmation will only be given if requested and will occur within 48 hours. _
This is it...Confirmation is requested.

_5-Must be presented by a club or individual member in good standing._
I am a current member #2308


Thanks for your attention...


Stan Siatkowski


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## Pidge (Apr 17, 2004)

Yes Zark....I have three bows right now but not the sights, rest or arrows to go with them. One of them is going to have to go. It is also nice not to have a girlfriend now that spends money like it grows on trees. By the way my mouth is still watering for some Smoe....lol....:darkbeer:


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

Stash said:


> Under the guidelines posted on the OAA website, I just e-mailed the following to Adam (OAA President)....
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Adam:
> 
> ...


Good call Stan, I'm totally onboard with your recommendation there.

As to the speed thing - as someone who used to push all the limits of the rules (some of you likely remember the 79lb spoiler pushing 25" 1913s... those were the days) I love to shoot really fast arrows, but I recognize that the smurf sized  McKenty's of the world are now going to be at an enormous draw length disadvantage to the tree like GEagles of the world. If you don't think that has a bearing on the final standings... well I humbly submit you're wrong. If we were all human rangefinders it would have less difference, but we're all off on some targets. Anybody remember that gator across the pond at the FCA's this summer? 3 guys in my group missed it (myself included), one hit. We all shot it for within 1 yard of what everyone else did. Who hit it? The guy shooting 330+fps. I suspect that we all executed relatively good shots (I know mine felt good), but the Ent in our group managed to hit it because of the speed advantage.

Oh well, I'll still come out to as many tournaments as money and time will allow and I'll be pushing the fastest arrows my Synergy can handle, but I'll feel bad for all the smurfs on the course...


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## #1 Hogger (Aug 17, 2005)

hoody its bad enough being fat now you bring in the smurf thing Hope you don't shot in front of me this year
The older and more rotund Andy


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

OMG!!!!!!! I remember those days...How do you? Who are you?

Sean and Brad pushing the limits with thier MUTANT bows...:wink:




hoody123 said:


> Good call Stan, I'm totally onboard with your recommendation there.
> 
> As to the speed thing - as someone who used to push all the limits of the rules (some of you likely remember the 79lb spoiler pushing 25" 1913s... those were the days) I love to shoot really fast arrows, but I recognize that the smurf sized  McKenty's of the world are now going to be at an enormous draw length disadvantage to the tree like GEagles of the world. If you don't think that has a bearing on the final standings... well I humbly submit you're wrong. If we were all human rangefinders it would have less difference, but we're all off on some targets. Anybody remember that gator across the pond at the FCA's this summer? 3 guys in my group missed it (myself included), one hit. We all shot it for within 1 yard of what everyone else did. Who hit it? The guy shooting 330+fps. I suspect that we all executed relatively good shots (I know mine felt good), but the Ent in our group managed to hit it because of the speed advantage.
> 
> Oh well, I'll still come out to as many tournaments as money and time will allow and I'll be pushing the fastest arrows my Synergy can handle, but I'll feel bad for all the smurfs on the course...


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2007)

I too remember those days and also had alot of fun with it, I didn't give up to much speed because I could pull alot of weight and shoot it well. The year I won Kitchener I was at 105lbs with 23" 1915. I know Brad had a wicked hatchet cam bow then. At that time I was a zone dierector in the OAA and most know there wasn't any restrictions, well after a few instances of broken bows causeing some hospital time and a broken arm via a Pearson Adantage it was time to address the OAA's risk management of even being involved with 3-D at all. We also had a very big push from the Government on fair play issues in sport hence the establishment of the 280 rule, any other type of rule had glaring holes in them. The 280 number came from the AMO chart on draw weight and gr/lb, bows over 30" had a higher gr/lb and bow shorter than 30" had a lower gr/lb, when we shot several speed bows in those ranges we got an average of 286fps. When the OAA put forth this proposal to the insurance company they agreed it would meet thier criteria to keep insuring us.

So you can see that there was alot more involved in saftey rules than just what you see on the surface. Raising or lowering the speed limit was always available but keeping a speed limit is the only way to keep everyone on a level playing field, it was never about the archers equipment choice but about the archer ability.


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## Pidge (Apr 17, 2004)

If I remember right Brads Frankenstein bow was an American riser PSE limbs and a set of High Country hatchet cams. He shot 25" aces out of it and I remember it sounding like a shotgun. I miss those days....lol...Hey I still have a set of those cams.:tongue:


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

ZarkSniper said:


> OMG!!!!!!! I remember those days...How do you? Who are you?
> 
> Sean and Brad pushing the limits with thier MUTANT bows...:wink:


LOL Andrew Galbraith. At the time I was 16ish shooting that setup and winning most things that I entered. My wife (who was my girlfriend at the time) also went to all the shoots and did quite well Joanne (Northey then). I shot with Brad in Kitchener on butt 1 second day in93 (I qualified #1 then choked massively taking the last paying spot). I won the 3d Classic a couple of weeks later in York County.

What I remember Brad shooting was either a Carrol Intruder with Darton like Cams, or a Spoiler with Darton like cams. I also seem to remember Stan shooting a bow in the 340 fps range as well.

I think Brad's was the only bow louder than mine though...

Sean did anybody up here actually ever shoot the Advantage competitively? I remember that Andy had one, but I don't remember him ever entering a tournament with it.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2007)

Andy shot Tavistock once and Caledon, the guy that broke his arm was from NY and was shooting in Kingston.

Brad had the PSE with High Country cams, I had the Carroll with those wicked Hoyt cams. I beleive Stan had a PSE Thunder Flight with the same Hoyt cams. I remember runnning that Carroll at over 426fps, man when I look back I wonder how there wasn't any more injuries, I know my Mach 5 cost me 10 stiches in my head.... boy do those head wounds ever blead, blood every where, head,face, wall, Kieth,Fiona and the car.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Well, my 80lb bow is still tucked away somewhere, never to be shot by me again 

But............... I do have a new Slayer with the CAT cams on its way to me  350 IBO. I'm figuring I can hit that easily :wink: Might be a scatter gun, but dang its going to be fast


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## Pidge (Apr 17, 2004)

I remember that Advantage had so much kinetic energy with the heavy arrows Andy was using that it knocked one of the targets over onto the ground...lol. You had to make sure it was hooked up properly or it would pull your arm out of its socket. I'm amazed more people didn't get hurt then.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Yeah, good old days... :darkbeer:

I'm having a hard time remembering all the details exactly, but my bow at the time was a PSE of some sort with the Hoyt speed cam at about 80# using a 4" overdraw and ACE 620s. They were cut to about 24" with a 50 grain point, so were probably around 220 grains. I seem to recall a speed around 375. I only shot one 3D with that setup, and didn't score too well. Lots of left-rights, as I recall.

I distinctly remember Sean shooting my arrow out of his bow at 95# at 427 at the Sportsman's Show one year. Then the arrow exploded.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

You mofo's were nuts 

Glad I got to know you in your "sane" years


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

Stash said:


> Yeah, good old days... :darkbeer:
> 
> I'm having a hard time remembering all the details exactly, but my bow at the time was a PSE of some sort with the Hoyt speed cam at about 80# using a 4" overdraw and ACE 620s. They were cut to about 24" with a 50 grain point, so were probably around 220 grains. I seem to recall a speed around 375. I only shot one 3D with that setup, and didn't score too well. Lots of left-rights, as I recall.
> 
> I distinctly remember Sean shooting my arrow out of his bow at 95# at 427 at the Sportsman's Show one year. Then the arrow exploded.


I remember it being a really fast bow and I definitely remember your having shot the ACEs out of it (I was in awe that somebody had money enough to shoot those at a 3D shoot), so I'm pretty sure that I was at that shoot. I seem to remember that you didn't have a 30 pin (and why would you have!). I can't remember where it was though. For some reason Niagara comes to mind, but I think I only ever shot 1 shoot down there, so that likely wasn't it...

Sean, any idea how the insurers are squaring themselves with the regression to 5gpp now?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2007)

We had the NDP in office at the time and they were really on the fair play kick and used that as the means to cut funding to those that had different rules for men and women, our insurance was more concerned about the spike in archery specific injuries both here and in the US. The 5gr/lb still doesn't line up with AMO which the insurance company used for a guide. So far there hasn't been a legal challenge to rule and any law suits file have never gone to court but our insurance both here and in the US have gone up, still the lowest of any shooting sport so far. I don't think they will know of this until something happens.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Hoody - I didn't have much money back then. :wink: Those arrows did triple duty. I bought them used, shot them at around 27" out of my recurve, and when I blew the ends off I cut them back to 26 to use out of my target compound with a short overdraw, and then when I blew the ends off _those_ I ended up with some *really* short ones...

I'm still a cheapo - nothing but second hand arrows for me...


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