# Michael Vincent got caught with a rangefinder!



## drtnshtr

Wow!!!


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## deer down

good luck shaking that label...


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## Sentinalonfire

Good too know... Wow, thought more of him than this, esp after the last talk we had.. Smh


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## ABTABB

Unbelievable... Lol


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## Jester1023

Cheater


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## threetoe

It's done all the time at my club.


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## wsbark01

threetoe said:


> It's done all the time at my club.


Your local club is not the Simi Pro range at an ASA Pro/Am. Wow that is crazy! Does anyone know what ASA does to the ones who cheat?


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## outbackarcher

Myself and the guys in my group were shocked when we heard the news. We really didn't know what to think until we saw the binos, then we got mad. He had spent alot of time disguising them to make them look like Alpines. It is not fair to everyone that shoots the ASA and I think everyone hopes that the ASA teaches him a lesson.


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## 3dshooter25

I was in his group today. A range official just came up to the group, asked Michael to see his binocs and determined that they were illegal. They took his binocs and DQ'ed him. He told us that he had no idea that they had range finding capabilities and that he had bought them at a garage sale several months ago.


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## outbackarcher

3dshooter25 said:


> I was in his group today. A range official just came up to the group, asked Michael to see his binocs and determined that they were illegal. They took his binocs and DQ'ed him. He told us that he had no idea that they had range finding capabilities and that heL had bought them at a garage sale several months ago.


I know that is what he said but after seeing them and holding them in my hand I don't buy it. Too much work camouflaging and put alpine logos on them.


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## 3dshooter25

Yea I know. I heard they were very well disguised. He kept them in his chair between shots so I didnt get to get a good look at them. It is definitely upsetting though...


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## BAArcher

How long has he been using them?


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## t48931

Over a year


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## Red57

If it happened (all the time ) in my club, I would question the integrity of my club. 
HONOR is a gift a man can give himself, their is no honor in Cheating, FIND a new hobby !!!


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## ICEMAN1

He's marked


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## Logjamb

Fishing or golf


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## Logjamb

We had a guy today in the top pier group unlimited class miss a target. Later he asked me what I shot it for. I told him 43yrds. He asked " How did you hit it? My friend shot it yesterday known 50 class and he said it was 50.5 yrds" I believe there was more than just semi cheating going on that course today.


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## BAArcher

And the money he won? Perhaps it should be returned.....


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## drtnshtr

yeh didnt he win by a bunch at LA?


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## colo_dually

Its good that he had gotten caught, and a shame he'd taken that level of time to disguise them.

Lets all wait and see what the ASA does in response to this offense.


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## S4 300-60

The level he apparently went to disguise them seems to show his intent. I would say a ban of at least a year is in order....if not longer.


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## hrtlnd164

Wow, hard to even digest this. When something like this comes out it taints everything you have accomplished, just can't see how it can be worth it.


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## TMORG

Saw 2 guys using them in open c. they said thbatteries were removed. ?


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## Young Gunna

Man! I cant even believe this. Coming from the same guy who won the sportsmanship award. Just unreal!


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## 2K6S2K

It is pretty sickening ( sp? ) to hear this news from someone that kids and adults looked up to. Im sure there was plenty of cheating going this year as there was last year.


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## buttspanker

He will spend the rest of his archery carrier trying to live this down. Even if he shoots legit the rest of the tome everybody will still question him. Personally if I ever did something like that (and I never would) I'd be to embarrassed to show my face again.


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## Edsel

Oh, but think of the giggly FUN he had pulling off that sneakeroo!


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## colo_dually

He ain't gonna have any fun once his sponsors are done with him, once this gets confirmed (Mind you we have no official records posted yet). His sponsors will most likely drop him at a minimum, if not have him pay back for some for this whole thing (tarnishment of the companies name, or something). All dependent on his contract terms with them.

As for the ASA response, I don't particularly care about what they do to this particular shooter. My concern is a knee-jerk change in the ASA rulebook to ensure this doesn't happen again. Either through banning of these binos (any bino with a RF, regardless if batteries are removed, and verified through a tech-check before a match) or using this as an excuse to banning optics all together.

That's the part I'm waiting to hear about.


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## ohiobullseye

I can't believe someone in that class would stupe that low and who really knows how long he and possibly others have been doing this cheating. I'm just glad someone caught him and had the guts to turn him in to the officials. I think some people would just turn their head the other way or maybe he was that good at cheating.


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## buttspanker

I don't think they will ever ban optics. To many of us use scopes in our sights and peepsights. 

As for this case, his sponsors are going to have a field day with him. His reputation is destroyed. I think they should ban anybody caught cheating for ever. 

He shoots IBO also. Who's going to be watching there?


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## Daniel Boone

Heard the news as I as leaving and it spread like wildfire in Paris.

What a shame and I agree he should be banned for life.

Heard several pros talking about his performance in IBO triple crown shoot beating all the pros on a tough course. Most were astonished anyone could shoot that well. We all got it figured out now for sure.

Winning by large margin in Monroe is another shoot he won.

Sure is a black Eye to the sport. Glad someone spotted it and let the authorities know about it.

DB


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## braxton1127

Dock him 25 driver points
Suspend crew chief 6 shoots
suspend bow chief 6 shoots
100,000 fine

Sorry had to make a joke as my blood is just boiling reading this disgraceful story....:thumbs_do


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## frog gigger

I sincerely hope that the bino's are done away with in all classes. Set speed rules for a level playing field, do the same with the bino's. NONE!


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## S4 300-60

No need to ban bino's......a simple check when you turn in cards would suffice. Frankly, bino's are seldom if ever inspected....I have never seen it. When ASA speed checks a bow, or IBO checks grains per pound on those that shoot well, simply do a full equipment inspection.


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## ohiobullseye

I agree maybe the top shooters should have all of their equipment checked after winning or mabey the top 3.


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## t8ter

Shame 4 sure.aint going to judge him till judged but I bet he didn't come up with this on his own.If true.


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## buttspanker

I think there will be a few changes after this. There is no way they can ban binos. But I bet there will be a few new rules. 

I think someone should let the head of the IBO know what happened. If he did it at an ASA he will do it again there.


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## Bowtech n ROSS

I am guessing he did at the 2nd leg of the stc where he shot 24 up with 24xs


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## Widgeon

frog gigger said:


> I sincerely hope that the bino's are done away with in all classes. Set speed rules for a level playing field, do the same with the bino's. NONE!


Exactly what does NOT need to be done. Knee jerking due to one person's infractions is a good way to screw things up and disenfranchise the majority. Think it through...


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## asa3dpro

I shot with Michael yesterday and after Randy Deerfield and I talked it was odd that after glassing Michael would put his "binoculars" in his chair and cover them with his towel. I spoke with him yesterday and would have never thought he would do that. Heck, he shot 5 down! I just don't understand why???

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk


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## bkr39

I know Micheal and I shoot with him from time to time he is a really good guy this news is VERY shocking


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## bowmanxx

This reminds me of something that was going on years ago. Some guys were putting lines on the bio lens to help with yardage.


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## buttspanker

asa3dpro said:


> I shot with Michael yesterday and after Randy Deerfield and I talked it was odd that after glassing Michael would put his "binoculars" in his chair and cover them with his towel. I spoke with him yesterday and would have never thought he would do that. Heck, he shot 5 down! I just don't understand why???
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk


As for the 5 down. He told me at Ta Mollys that he shot 4 14's. He just couldn't hit any more. Even if you know the yardage you still can't shoot 5's. Personally I hope he quits shooting. It would do the rest of us a favor.


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## reylamb

Why would the ASA need to add more rules? Rangefinders are already against the rules for unknown classes, he got caught.

Kinda like making more gun control laws by the feds, they do not change criminals. Those that want to cheat in the ASA will find a way.....sure it is harder, but there is always a way.


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## buttspanker

reylamb said:


> Why would the ASA need to add more rules? Rangefinders are already against the rules for unknown classes, he got caught.
> 
> Kinda like making more gun control laws by the feds, they do not change criminals. Those that want to cheat in the ASA will find a way.....sure it is harder, but there is always a way.


Good point.


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## texasfloors

I was there also. First I've heard of this but I hate a cheater.


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## ACE430

If he cheated with them the only thing to do is BAN HIM FOR LIFE. People like this do not need a second chance. I spend over a thousand dollars to go to a national shoot and this is why I will not be traveling again. Cheating is going to ruin 3d shooting.


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## buttspanker

ACE430 said:


> If he cheated with them the only thing to do is BAN HIM FOR LIFE. People like this do not need a second chance. I spend over a thousand dollars to go to a national shoot and this is why I will not be traveling again. Cheating is going to ruin 3d shooting.


Why let one ******* with the morals of a slug keep you from something you enjoy?


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## backwoodsdonkey

Young Gunna said:


> Man! I cant even believe this. Coming from the same guy who won the sportsmanship award. Just unreal!


This is a total shock to me as well. I am the Mississippi State ASA Director. I myself am awaiting a phone call or email as to what actions they are considering in this matter. But for the Sportsmanship Award............... Each state gets to nominate a person each year. Its in the Federation rules I believe. Last year when Michael was awarded this prestigious award he was the only one from our state nominated, and only 2 people nationally were nominated at all. So I wouldnt let his mistake or however you wanna word what his actions were tarnish the ASA SPORTSMANSHIP AWARD.


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## keyman

Daniel Boone said:


> Heard the news as I as leaving and it spread like wildfire in Paris.
> 
> What a shame and I agree he should be banned for life.
> 
> Heard several pros talking about his performance in IBO triple crown shoot beating all the pros on a tough course. Most were astonished anyone could shoot that well. We all got it figured out now for sure.
> 
> Winning by large margin in Monroe is another shoot he won.
> 
> Sure is a black Eye to the sport. Glad someone spotted it and let the authorities know about it.
> 
> DB


He should get about the same thing that Richard Freeland got when he got caught cheating more than once.


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## Droptine

I dont think what he did was a mistake!!!!!


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## noXcuses

Well the Asa can dq him but what about the ibo? I know a guy who shot with him in florida and he said the same thing about putting a towel over them. We all know he had to use them in Pensacola. It posses me off because I know the guys who he beat. If he was a real man and ever wanted to shoot again he would be man enough to admit that he used them at the previous shoots. giving the real shooters credit where they earned it


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## Bowtech n ROSS

noXcuses said:


> Well the Asa can dq him but what about the ibo? I know a guy who shot with him in florida and he said the same thing about putting a towel over them. We all know he had to use them in Pensacola. It posses me off because I know the guys who he beat. If he was a real man and ever wanted to shoot again he would be man enough to admit that he used them at the previous shoots. giving the real shooters credit where they earned it


In my opinion luke won the shoot.


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## nilrednuas

buttspanker said:


> Today in Paris Michael Vincent got caught with a pair of binos with built-in rangefinders. I think they were Ziess but they had Alpen stickers covering the button and the Ziess logos. The range officials DQ'd him. Just a heads up for anybody that shoots semi-pro.


Hahaha, what a bum


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## Droptine

I seen him hit a limb in the first ibo on the second day and I remember thinking how that sucked for him after having a good first day. If he would have hit a 10 on that one he would have been right there with the leaders in that shoot. Feels good now knowing I beat him in that shoot and he had a rangfinder..........


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## Wes_C7

I remember reading a post by someone who shot with him after the Florida IBO shoot saying that they had never seen anyone judge yardage like that....well now you know why!


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## sagecreek

:ban:


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## Bowjoe1972

I wonder if he bragged to someone or did someone just notice it and turn him in.. and I would still probly still be in last place..Just saying..


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## Hyunchback

Cheating isn't just confined to the big contests. After our local club shoot today I was approached by someone who said that another group had someone using a range finder and the group were discussing the range to the target. 

We don't pay anything to anyone in any class. The most you get is a little medal on a ribbon. I don't understand why anyone would do this. Is their weeny so small that they have to cheat to have high scores in a no-money game?


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## Rut Addiction

If all of this is true...What a ******BAG! He should personally apologize to everyone he has beat while cheating and return all the money he has won. A true disgrace to the sport!


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## reylamb

noXcuses said:


> Well the Asa can dq him but what about the ibo? I know a guy who shot with him in florida and he said the same thing about putting a towel over them. We all know he had to use them in Pensacola. It posses me off because I know the guys who he beat. If he was a real man and ever wanted to shoot again he would be man enough to admit that he used them at the previous shoots. giving the real shooters credit where they earned it


What we may all think, and what the IBO can prove are 2 different things.......


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## Kale

With the amount of money that is up for grabs to win at these shoots and with the economy the way it is I am sure he is not the only one cheating at these big shoots, he is just the first one to be caught...


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## buttspanker

As for Michael, I do NOT feel sorry for that cockroach! I do feel sorry for his wife and little boy. They have to deal with the shame of what that roach did. How can they ever look at him and be proud of him again? I think that's what will hurt the most. Money can be repaid but trust and respect can not.


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## Daniel Boone

reylamb said:


> What we may all think, and what the IBO can prove are 2 different things.......


There was witness shooting with him. Wouldnt be hard to prove. Apparently he had these binos for a longtime.

Really sad some have to go this low.
DB


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## Bowjoe1972

buttspanker said:


> As for Michael, I do NOT feel sorry for that cockroach! I do feel sorry for his wife and little boy. They have to deal with the shame of what that roach did. How can they ever look at him and be proud of him again? I think that's what will hurt the most. Money can be repaid but trust and respect can not.


Very true there that would be the true hurt there..


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## noXcuses

I had a talk with him at Florida. He gave me a big speech on how semi pro's should be able to judge yardage well enough to not ever shoot an 8. I actually felt a little belittled, not anymore.


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## Sentinalonfire

its all so funny now, about 2 weeks ago i got a call from him asking me if i had planned on protesting his louisiana win because i had asked a couple of guys if they had seen what he was writing down on his little notepad each day before the tourneys would fire off, i noticed that he would walk up too each target judge it and then write sumthin in his notepad. well after i heard that it was illegal too write down yardage i asked a few guys what they thought about it and one of them told me they go around each mornin and write down diff targets think they will go after each day so i thought nothing else about it, then when i got the call from michael saying blake told him i was goin too protest him, he went on too tell me that like myself he was a good christian man an he would never cheat too win, an im not judging that he is or is not a christian but i hope that he changes his ways... he introduced me too his little boy in newberry and now i really wish he had'nt cause i honestly could tell that he loves this sport and i hurts too know that he will suffer more from this than anyone...


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## Maine-lybucks

*cheater*



Droptine said:


> I dont think what he did was a mistake!!!!!


DIRTBAG period.


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## cshive

Wish I would have known this a month ago..... I would have been happy to pay $50 protest.


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## clayboy

WOW!!! Cant believe the lengths some people will go to......


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## salmon killer

There is always cheating were there is money or prestige involved.Think steriods and other chemical enhancements.Its to bad .But lets not judge as there is no one with out some faults.There was others that were at it also they just havent been caught yet.


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## Kale

Kale said:


> With the amount of money that is up for grabs to win at these shoots and with the economy the way it is I am sure he is not the only one cheating at these big shoots, he is just the first one to be caught...


I wanted to expand on this alittle bit. 

Here in Canada at our national level shoots we dont even shoot for money. Before these shoots there is MANDATORY equipment checks for everyone. Then during the shoot there are judges walking around doing random equipment checks so know one knows if they might get checked again. I have never heard of anyone cheating due to there equipment. We get the odd pencil whipper but that is about it.

I have no idea how there are no equipment checks at these ASA shoots with all this money on the line.


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## SAVAGERPTR

What a tool. For all of us who go out and shoot everyday and practice judging yardage day in and day out when we hear something like this I get livid. Cheaters will always cheat and need to be banned from all Archery events in the US. IBO ASA, local and National


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## gaberichter

TMORG said:


> Saw 2 guys using them in open c. they said thbatteries were removed. ?


I personally watched a range official check a pair that had the batteries removed on this range on Saturday. Open-C had a top noth official all weekend and deserves credit for a job well done.


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## reylamb

Daniel Boone said:


> There was witness shooting with him. Wouldnt be hard to prove. Apparently he had these binos for a longtime.
> 
> Really sad some have to go this low.
> DB


Oh I agree, it is sad, however......the IBO can not prove 100% he cheated at the STC shoots. He could use the lame batteries were not in them excuse.....and if the IBO were to try to take anything from him retroactively......I would guarantee he would sue, and possibly win........

Like I said, what we all think and what is undeniable proof are 2 different things....


Kale said:


> I wanted to expand on this alittle bit.
> 
> Here in Canada at our national level shoots we dont even shoot for money. Before these shoots there is MANDATORY equipment checks for everyone. Then during the shoot there are judges walking around doing random equipment checks so know one knows if they might get checked again. I have never heard of anyone cheating due to there equipment. We get the odd pencil whipper but that is about it.
> 
> I have no idea how there are no equipment checks at these ASA shoots with all this money on the line.


In the US FITA shoots have the same checks, and they are not for any money.

For the most part ASA rules get enforced by the competitors. Big difference in time between checking a couple hundred FITA shooters and 1,500 shooters.......not that I think it should not be done, but at the end of the day enforcement by the competitos has worked fairly well.


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## Daniel Boone

noXcuses said:


> I had a talk with him at Florida. He gave me a big speech on how semi pro's should be able to judge yardage well enough to not ever shoot an 8. I actually felt a little belittled, not anymore.


Im thinking many are going to remember things he said and now they mean nothing. 
DB


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## edgerat

Considering the price of a set of those Zeiss binoculars, I think he paid a pretty hefty price right off the bat  That said, he should be banned for at least a few years.


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## Jay-J

Anyone got a picture of this guy?


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## Sentinalonfire

Pick up ur asa guide he was in last years as the sportsmanship award recipient


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## tntone

Sentinalonfire said:


> Pick up ur asa guide he was in last years as the sportsmanship award recipient


i would assume he used those binos last year...?


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## jimb

I don't think you should be able to have the binoculars on the range with the batteries removed. To much temptation for some people.


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## EMC686

This news really sickens me! I absolutely loathe cheaters and thieves, as they are one and the same! If someone is caught cheating, they should be banned from future competition, plain and simple.


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## Jay-J

Sentinalonfire said:


> Pick up ur asa guide he was in last years as the sportsmanship award recipient


Got it. Thanks


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## keyman

Here is Michael Vincent


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## Bryan Thacker

Dumb*****!


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## iamscubasteve

I know you can't judge a book by its cover, but he looks like the slimmy cheating kind. 

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## Jay-J

It really is a shame! No tournament win or money is worth giving up your good name and integrity!


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## bmeese21

I also hope the IBO takes action towards this cheater. He shot 9 points better then Jack Wallace at the last IBO event. Wallace was the top pro shooting 15 up and Vincent was 24 up. This guy is a discrace and should be banned from the sport. Right now Luke Schirf should be leading the Semi Pro class in the southern tripple crown. But hes not because Michael Vincent cheats. This guy is a discrace to the sport. He has some balls if he shows up at 3rd leg of the southern tripple crown. He is a cheater and should be banned from both organizations. He come off as one of the nicest guys you can meet, but he is a fake. Both organizations need to take action towards this clown so hes not cheating and honest shooter who deserves to win.


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## TMax27

Sentinalonfire said:


> Pick up ur asa guide he was in last years as the sportsmanship award recipient


This is the funniest ( not funny ha ha) part of it.


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## tntone

shot a 430 in LA 17 12's and won $996....ukey:


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## asa_low12

What I want to know is how they knew to check them? Who tipped them off? Whoever it was should get his sportsman of the year award..


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## bmeese21

i heard after he was DQ he was hanging around the vendors like nothing happend. If this was me I would of pulled my poor son off the course and took the fastest jet plane back to Missouri, never to show my face again at an archery event.


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## Daniel Boone

bmeese21 said:


> i heard after he was DQ he was hanging around the vendors like nothing happend. If this was me I would of pulled my poor son off the course and took the fastest jet plane back to Missouri, never to show my face again at an archery event.


Cheaters often seem to justify it some way. 
DB


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## Garceau

Crazy for sure.... he was on A.T just this evening.


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## asa_low12

His facebook pic is with Mrs. Pearson, holding the trophy from the Ben Pearson Memorial shoot down in Pine Bluff, AR... Best I can tell he posted a 32 up. Second highest score is his son at 26 up in cub. I'm not at all trying to accuse a kid of cheating, as I don't see how a rangefinder could even be used from a cub stake, but the next highest is a 24 and 22 up from BHR and youth classes, which are both shorter stakes. The BP memorial usually brings in all the best shooters from the state and used to be as big as a pro/am from what i've been told. I wonder who really won it?


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## 450r20

I don't know! but if this is true this is the worst thing I have ever heard of ! I'm sure a lot of this goes on and he's just one that got caught! But that's about as low as it gets


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## canecreek 3d

any time you have money , you will have cheaters , same as coonhunting are beagleing or your county livestock shows . it sucks but its true.


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## noXcuses

The ibo and Asa should have rules to let them ban any shooter caught cheating in EITHER organization. Kinda like if you shoot pro in Asa, you have to shoot pro in ibo. This garbage needs to stop. If the Asa or ibo let's this shooter compete this year I lose respect for either organization


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## Jay-J

Yep, "Vintech" is his AT handle.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

bmeese21 said:


> i heard after he was DQ he was hanging around the vendors like nothing happend. If this was me I would of pulled my poor son off the course and took the fastest jet plane back to Missouri, never to show my face again at an archery event.



He also finished shooting...I think if I was in that group I wouldve tossed his arrow into the deepest mud bog I couldve found.


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## azflyman

Does anyone know for sure that there were in fact batteries in the bino's? Just a thought.

az


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## gracie

back in the early ibo days pearson archery said they would pay 5,000 dollars to anyone that shot a perfect round in a national shoot.well load and behold some one came up with a perfect score and two witness to prove it. all the top shooters new each other and who could shoot what score and no one ever heard of this guy before.rumer was pearson paid off and no one saw this guy again.seams money and fame can cause people to do strange things.


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## bowtexan

We had a guy in the bow novice class get caught with a scope in his apex hunting sight on saturday. Guess the cheating was going on from bottom to top. He got dq'd also. I just don't get it.


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## shootist

azflyman said:


> Does anyone know for sure that there were in fact batteries in the bino's? Just a thought.
> 
> az


Without a doubt. I was on the range and I saw the disguised binos first hand. The range official checked them by hitting the button. Very sad situation indeed. I would like to see a 2 year ban, and after that I would be fine with him competing again. At first I was trying to figure out how he could be innocent, then I saw the binos and I got angry as it appeared to be an obvious, intentional attempt at cheating. 

That all being said, if and when he apologizes I would try mg best to forget about it. It was a despicable act, but not unforgivable.


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## Hallsway

Wow I just met him at the 2nd Leg of the IBO STC. I thought he was a nice guy, and was amazed at his score. He said he was using his ASA set-up (280 FPS) on a pretty tough course. I made the joke to my buddies on the way home that he must have a rangefinder inplanted in his eye. It appears I wasn't that far off. This is very disappointing. I was wondering why a guy who is a semi pro, shooting great equipment with sponsors, and has a great job (from what he told me), would decide to use garage sale binos? 

Makes me wonder how many more are out there???... Equipment check should include binos, not just bows and arrows. A rangefinder is a rangefinder whether it has batteries or not. Simply do not allow them.


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## mod10g

Someone stated that two other guys had the same binos, and we're inspected, both were given there's back and finished the shoot because they had no batteries in them. I would think if his didn't have batteries they would have done the same for him. The smoking gun for me is the alterations to the binos to make them look like Alpines's, if this is true I would have to say the man is guilty, but I didn't see or talk with anyone who shot in his group or witnessed the call. But just as a outsider looking at the evidence, it tough to believe, he didn't know or use it.




azflyman said:


> Does anyone know for sure that there were in fact batteries in the bino's? Just a thought.
> 
> az


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## turkeywhisperer

Sounds like ASA and IBO needs to do a bino check at tent before the shooters exit the range!


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## outbackarcher

azflyman said:


> Does anyone know for sure that there were in fact batteries in the bino's? Just a thought.
> 
> az


Like Darin has already stated the battery was in them. When we asked the range official if we could see them, I looked through them and ranged the buggy setting back toward the parking lot. I pushed the alpen logo and the yardage popped up in the right eye piece. Very sad someone would stoop this low.


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## frog gigger

Widgeon said:


> Exactly what does NOT need to be done. Knee jerking due to one person's infractions is a good way to screw things up and disenfranchise the majority. Think it through...


I'm quite sure this guy is not the only one using bino's as a rangefinder. A high dollar set can do the same thing with the focus feature. So, I have thought it through.


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## buttspanker

asa_low12 said:


> His facebook pic is with Mrs. Pearson, holding the trophy from the Ben Pearson Memorial shoot down in Pine Bluff, AR... Best I can tell he posted a 32 up. Second highest score is his son at 26 up in cub. I'm not at all trying to accuse a kid of cheating, as I don't see how a rangefinder could even be used from a cub stake, but the next highest is a 24 and 22 up from BHR and youth classes, which are both shorter stakes. The BP memorial usually brings in all the best shooters from the state and used to be as big as a pro/am from what i've been told. I wonder who really won it?


He beat Chris Hacker! Chris us one if the best on earth and got beat by the magic binos!!!


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## mag41vance

"Just win Baby" to quote the late Al Davis. 
I guess in a society where winning and notoriety is many peoples goal, doing your best and being happy with the result is an old fashion ethic. 
Cheating leads to stealing, stealing to lying, lying to more lying.
Why? Read Matthew 23:12 for the exact answer.


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## jrober4

asa_low12 said:


> His facebook pic is with Mrs. Pearson, holding the trophy from the Ben Pearson Memorial shoot down in Pine Bluff, AR... Best I can tell he posted a 32 up. Second highest score is his son at 26 up in cub. I'm not at all trying to accuse a kid of cheating, as I don't see how a rangefinder could even be used from a cub stake, but the next highest is a 24 and 22 up from BHR and youth classes, which are both shorter stakes. The BP memorial usually brings in all the best shooters from the state and used to be as big as a pro/am from what i've been told. I wonder who really won it?


I was the president of pine bluff bowhunters last hear when he won. He beat Chris hacker by 2 pts at this shoot to win. There were a lot of shooters in the pro class and the payout was a couple hundred dollars. He donated the winnings back to our club and told me he always does this at local shoots to help support the clubs. He is from Mississippi and our club is in Arkansas. This was the first time I met Michael even though we both were shooting in open A nationally. I was very impressed by this and could tell he really loved and supported our sport. I've seen and talked to Michael several times since then and I'm always amazed at how nice and down to earth he is. Here it is the next morning and it still doesn't settle with me. I keep trying to find a way that he wasn't cheating but can't. He is literally the last guy I would expect this from.


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## buttspanker

If he just wanted to be famous, he got what he wanted.


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## ohiobullseye

Once a cheater always a cheater.


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## completepassthru

A person cheats for several reasons. Because he wants to win badly, he feels he needs to, and because of insecurity, and lastly because of a lapse in moral judgment. I will say this, although it looks like he did cheat, he still must be one heck of a shooter. The sad part is he will never be remembered for anything other than this cheating scandal. 

Be sure your sins will find you out. If he is found to be guilty he should be banned for a certain amount of time. I do think the archery community should forgive and try to forget. Not one of us is perfect.


----------



## SET THE HOOK

I think the best thing Michael Vincent can do now is get on AT and Facebook and apologize to his friends,sponsors,people he competes against and the rest of the 3d world. A heart felt apology and admitting to is the first step, he will take a beating..but i think people will never forget but most will forgive, hes not the first to get caught and certainly not the last.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk


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## jamesbowman

If you want to believe garage sale binos with fake emblems for the sake of hiding them you can, if you want to say nice guys cheat you can, if you want to label an intentional act of thievery a mistake you can. But at my house we call it something different! If the man is guilty of this and it sounds like he is with all the witnesses he ought to be banned from shooting ASA events, his name should be striken from all the records, he should be mae to pay back every cent he has won and it ought to be given to the guys who really won. And I personally believe that all range finding binos should be illegal at all events batteries or no batteries. And by the way character is not determined by a smile, whether someone is nice to talk to, or fun to be around- Character is determined by your actions, especailly when no one is watching!


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## carlosii

TMORG said:


> Saw 2 guys using them in open c. they said thbatteries were removed. ?[/QUOTe
> known or unknown range? on unknown NO range finding device allowed. absence of batteries wouldn't matter, i'd think.


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## jamesbowman

I say hogwash on the batteries- They should not be allowed on a range where rangfinders are illegal. They are the same thing.


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## carlosii

bmeese21 said:


> i heard after he was DQ he was hanging around the vendors like nothing happend. If this was me I would of pulled my poor son off the course and took the fastest jet plane back to Missouri, never to show my face again at an archery event.


i think he's from Mississippi...but i could be wrong...again.


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## dw'struth

jamesbowman said:


> I say hogwash on the batteries- They should not be allowed on a range where rangfinders are illegal. They are the same thing.


Exactly! If someone can disguise the bino's, someone can hide a seperate battery compartment as well.


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## Daniel Boone

My roommate at Paris got to see the binos and even see they worked. He said without a doubt 100% he was quilty.

He a semi pro shooter as well.

He was told he was DQ but could finish shooting the rest of targets but the binos were taken.

Be interesting to see how ASA handles this.

DB


----------



## Kstigall

bkr39 said:


> I know Micheal and I shoot with him from time to time he is a really good guy this news is VERY shocking


Don't feel bad. The world is full of very "honest" crooks. Just becuase they are crooks doen't mean they are stupid and appear to be crooked. Just look at all the religious leaders that have been busted for much worse crimes. School teachers, PTA treasurers, police officers and the like make the news every day. In fact a good crook is probably above average intelligience and very adept at manipulating people.



backwoodsdonkey said:


> This is a total shock to me as well. I am the Mississippi State ASA Director. I myself am awaiting a phone call or email as to what actions they are considering in this matter. But for the Sportsmanship Award............... Each state gets to nominate a person each year. Its in the Federation rules I believe. Last year when Michael was awarded this prestigious award he was the only one from our state nominated, and only 2 people nationally were nominated at all. So I wouldnt let his mistake or however you wanna word what his actions were tarnish the ASA SPORTSMANSHIP AWARD.


Read my above comment to bkr39.



noXcuses said:


> I had a talk with him at Florida. He gave me a big speech on how semi pro's should be able to judge yardage well enough to not ever shoot an 8. I actually felt a little belittled, not anymore.


He appears to be good looking, honest and charismatic. But look at all the politicians that go to prison. Most every one of them is charismatic and "honest" looking. 



Sentinalonfire said:


> its all so funny now, about 2 weeks ago i got a call from him asking me if i had planned on protesting his louisiana win because i had asked a couple of guys if they had seen what he was writing down on his little notepad each day before the tourneys would fire off, i noticed that he would walk up too each target judge it and then write sumthin in his notepad. well after i heard that it was illegal too write down yardage i asked a few guys what they thought about it and one of them told me they go around each mornin and write down diff targets think they will go after each day so i thought nothing else about it, then when i got the call from michael saying blake told him i was goin too protest him, he went on too tell me that like myself he was a good christian man an he would never cheat too win, an im not judging that he is or is not a christian but i hope that he changes his ways... he introduced me too his little boy in newberry and now i really wish he had'nt cause i honestly could tell that he loves this sport and i hurts too know that he will suffer more from this than anyone...


Don't feel bad. If he can travel the country lieing to everyone a face to face lie is a gimme' for him. He may even play the "good christian" and profess the devil made him do it and be reborn. It's easy to seek forgiveness AFTER you've been caught with your pants down. It burns my butt when the scum of the earth use their "good christian values" as a tool to steal. How can he ever be totally trusted again? Sure I'd forgive him but it doesn't mean I'd ever totally trust him



keyman said:


> View attachment 1324014
> 
> 
> Here is Michael Vincent


Well big boy here's your 5 minutes of fame!! Enjoy! If you play this right you can get more attention by becoming re-born and professing that overwhelmed your good christain soul.




bmeese21 said:


> i heard after he was DQ he was hanging around the vendors like nothing happend. If this was me I would of pulled my poor son off the course and took the fastest jet plane back to Missouri, never to show my face again at an archery event.


He's a tough player. You don't buy $2000+ binos and profess your good christians values to someone while stealing from them if you don't have brass cahones. Look at all the elected officials that get busted. It's very rare that they confess until they are walking to a jail cell and even tehn few ever come completely clean. Many try to get back in the game years later. You have to be bold and have nerves of steel to be a public liar and thief. Dim witted softies are not very successful crooks.



jrober4 said:


> I was the president of pine bluff bowhunters last hear when he won. He beat Chris hacker by 2 pts at this shoot to win. There were a lot of shooters in the pro class and the payout was a couple hundred dollars. He donated the winnings back to our club and told me he always does this at local shoots to help support the clubs. He is from Mississippi and our club is in Arkansas. This was the first time I met Michael even though we both were shooting in open A nationally. I was very impressed by this and could tell he really loved and supported our sport. I've seen and talked to Michael several times since then and I'm always amazed at how nice and down to earth he is. Here it is the next morning and it still doesn't settle with me. I keep trying to find a way that he wasn't cheating but can't. He is literally the last guy I would expect this from.


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## Kstigall

The question is, how far up Michael Vincent's butt did his wife bury her foot?
a) 2 inches
b) 4 inches
c) 6 inches
d) it came out his mouth


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## 2wyoming

Unreal.


----------



## drleon67

jamesbowman said:


> I say hogwash on the batteries- They should not be allowed on a range where rangfinders are illegal. They are the same thing.


I have to say, I agree with you here. Why muddy the waters by even having rangefinding equipment (functional or not) with you during competition? Leave it home and bring along a legal pair of lenses.


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## TDA

So what does that do to his first place in LA? Shouldn't that be at the very least investigated? I'm sorry but I know a ton of great guys who shoot ASA and IBO and are straight up shooters. His 430 at the last shoot is suspect at best. I'm just sayin


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## TDA

Daniel Boone said:


> Heard the news as I as leaving and it spread like wildfire in Paris.
> 
> What a shame and I agree he should be banned for life.
> 
> Heard several pros talking about his performance in IBO triple crown shoot beating all the pros on a tough course. Most were astonished anyone could shoot that well. We all got it figured out now for sure.
> 
> Winning by large margin in Monroe is another shoot he won.
> 
> Sure is a black Eye to the sport. Glad someone spotted it and let the authorities know about it.
> 
> DB


DB...not sure if it's a black eye on the sport. It's without a doubt a career killing blow to him. He will have 0 credibility going forward. It basically negates all of his seemingly astonishing recent finishes whether legit or not. Just goes to show that no amount of talent can keep up with a sharp pencil or a rangefinder


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## asa_low12

TDA said:


> So what does that do to his first place in LA? Shouldn't that be at the very least investigated? I'm sorry but I know a ton of great guys who shoot ASA and IBO and are straight up shooters. His 430 at the last shoot is suspect at best. I'm just sayin


He started placing a lot higher (for the most part), after joining the unknown classes. He must have really practiced his range finding over the winter months in between tournament seasons.


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## Hittingguru

All said and done, this is a great opportunity for both organizations, IBO and ASA, to get proactive and start checking *ALL EQUIPMENT* before the archer enters the course. That would include speed checks, chrono/arrow weight, binos, length of stabilizers, etc. 

Yes, it would take time--but not near as much time as it takes to clean up the reputation of a sport after the fact.


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## Archerywarrior

I think luke sheriff should be made the ibo semi pro leader in stc,he had to have those binos at the second leg of the stc.


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## bmeese21

carlosii said:


> i think he's from Mississippi...but i could be wrong...again.


he is i messed that up.


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## MSBowhunter32

carlosii said:


> i think he's from Mississippi...but i could be wrong...again.


Yea he's from Vicksburg. I know him personally.


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## athomPT

canecreek 3d said:


> any time you have money , you will have cheaters , same as coonhunting are beagleing or your county livestock shows . it sucks but its true.


Often it has little to do with money (ie local shoots) and more about insecurities about always being first! You see them in their cars speeding by everyone only to switch into the left lane and slow down....then speed up when people try to pass them! Sad thing!


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## dw'struth

athomPT said:


> Often it has little to do with money (ie local shoots) and more about insecurities about always being first! *You see them in their cars speeding by everyone only to switch into the left lane and slow down....then speed up when people try to pass them!* Sad thing!


Haha......That gets my BP up every time! lol


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## Padgett

I just read all 5 pages of this thread and the more I read the more pizzed I get, I skipped going to the missouri indoor state championships just because I wanted two more 3-d shoots under my belt before texas so that I could practice ranging, I spent all week thinking about ranging and saturday morning I spent 2 hours on the practice range doing nothing but ranging the stinking targets. I didn't shoot that well saturday and shot 8 down but my ranging was really good and was the one thing that came out positive when I thought of my day back at the motel. 

How dare you people who cheat come to our shoots and and make us feel inferior, I look up to the guys who beat me week after week and I go home and train and shoot and range to try and make myself better so I can win. When I find out that they are cheating I just want to make their life hell and just saying sorry isn't good enough. I will never look at them the same again.


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## J Whittington

TDA said:


> DB...not sure if it's a black eye on the sport. It's without a doubt a career killing blow to him. He will have 0 credibility going forward. It basically negates all of his seemingly astonishing recent finishes whether legit or not. Just goes to show that no amount of talent can keep up with a sharp pencil or a rangefinder


I shot with him on sat in LA he shot 18 up. I was impressed. He used the same illegal binocs / range finders, same routine put them in his chair, cover with towel etc. and I was to stupid to suspect anything


----------



## Daniel Boone

J Whittington said:


> I shot with him on sat in LA he shot 18 up. I was impressed. He used the same illegal binocs / range finders, same routine put them in his chair, cover with towel etc. and I was to stupid to suspect anything


We all want to think the best and especially if it a really nice guy. But there was red flags all over on his scores. Bet next time we all look a little harder.
DB


----------



## BowMadinTN

3dshooter25 said:


> I was in his group today. A range official just came up to the group, asked Michael to see his binocs and determined that they were illegal. They took his binocs and DQ'ed him. He told us that he had no idea that they had range finding capabilities and that he had bought them at a garage sale several months ago.



Of course he did! He was busted and he knew it! I've been to alot of yard sales and Ziess RF binocs disguised as Alpens are not a usual item to run across.LMFAO! He was just trying to play dumb and it worked, he showed just how dumb he was. He should be banned and sued for his winnings. He has no reason to show his face at another event unless he's just looking for a good grilling!
Go away dude,you're DONE!


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## Daniel Boone

TDA said:


> DB...not sure if it's a black eye on the sport. It's without a doubt a career killing blow to him. He will have 0 credibility going forward. It basically negates all of his seemingly astonishing recent finishes whether legit or not. Just goes to show that no amount of talent can keep up with a sharp pencil or a rangefinder


For guys like me that defend 3d archery constantly here on the forums. This will be brought back up over and over. Some just dont pros can judge yardage this good without cheating some way.
DB


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## BowMadinTN

Daniel Boone said:


> We all want to think the best and especially if it a really nice guy. But there was red flags all over on his scores. Bet next time we all look a little harder.
> DB


There shouldn't be a next time! He should be done as far as the ASA is concerned, at least for a year! Then he still has to show his face and deal with the scorn of others IF he has the kahonas to show up for another shoot. I say to EVERYONE, if he shows up to another one, be sure and tell him how you as an honest competitor feel about scum like him. This burns me up and i don't even shoot his class!


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## jack88

Cheaters only deserve to shoot with themselves, in their own back yard!


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## BowMadinTN

MSBowhunter32 said:


> Yea he's from Vicksburg. I know him personally.



Good, you can tell him He Sucks!


----------



## ABTABB

J Whittington said:


> I shot with him on sat in LA he shot 18 up. I was impressed. He used the same illegal binocs / range finders, same routine put them in his chair, cover with towel etc. and *I was to stupid to suspect anything*


That's not being Stupid JW, it's just having faith Everybody out there is playing by the same rules, and out there for the same reason... The only good that will come out of this is, Everybody will have a more watchful eye, in regards to Governing Ourselves/Competitors on the range...


----------



## Daniel Boone

BowMadinTN said:


> There shouldn't be a next time! He should be done as far as the ASA is concerned, at least for a year! Then he still has to show his face and deal with the scorn of others IF he has the kahonas to show up for another shoot. I say to EVERYONE, if he shows up to another one, be sure and tell him how you as an honest competitor feel about scum like him. This burns me up and i don't even shoot his class!


Hasnt happen in the past and wont happen here. Those who have been caught are still shooting today. 
DB


----------



## sagecreek

ABTABB said:


> That's not being Stupid JW, it's just having faith Everybody out there is playing by the same rules, and out there for the same reason... The only good that will come out of this is, Everybody will have a more watchful eye, in regards to Governing Ourselves/Competitors on the range...


EXACTLY, just something else to be on the lookout for.


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## sagecreek

I think anykind of rangefinding binos should not be allowed on the unmarked ranges, JMO. batteries or no batteries.

What are those guys doing with those anyways.


----------



## Kstigall

J Whittington said:


> I shot with him on sat in LA he shot 18 up. I was impressed. He used the same illegal binocs / range finders, same routine put them in his chair, cover with towel etc. and I was to stupid to suspect anything


Jerry, deep down inside wouldn't you like to take a poke at him? I'm not proud of it but I know I would. Work your butt off and little Mr. Slick pulls this stunt. Heck, I'd rather just be flat out robbed. No need to scam me and everyone else as well.


Those Zeiss bino/range finders aren't cheap!!!


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## treeman65

cheaters suck and boy is he really stupid cause he has his phone number on here.All you have to do is a search for of his post and it is listed there.


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## lknchoppers

I think they need to clarify the rule and state that range finding binoculars are not allowed under any circumstances in the unknown classes, battries in them or not. It seems kind of crazy for the range official to have to see if they are functioning or not. Also the batteries could be reinstalled after they get checked.


----------



## reylamb

lknchoppers said:


> I think they need to clarify the rule and state that range finding binoculars are not allowed under any circumstances in the unknown classes, battries in them or not. It seems kind of crazy for the range official to have to see if they are functioning or not. Also the batteries could be reinstalled after they get checked.


The rules clearly state rangefinders are not to be on any unknown ranges. They are not even supposed to be in the shooter stools. They do not say it is ok to have rangefinders if the batteries are out of them, no rangefinders period on unknown ranges in unknown classes.........I think that rule pretty well covers them. Even with no batteries they are still a rangefinder.


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## 918hoytman918

I had bushnell fusion binos and I shot fri, sat, and sun. For Friday and Saturdays team shoots I gave the judge a quick check after I got my scorecard. But my battery and compartment lid was in my truck. I didn't see the noon judge or I would of done the same. He came by halfway thru our round to have a look. No stickers and anybody could of asked to check them and i wouldnt of minded. Good job by the judge and shooters on that course. I will definitely not put myself in that position again.


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## JAVI

Nothing will be done to him..

Want to fix the problem... NO Binoculars period...


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## cshive

JAVI said:


> Nothing will be done to him..
> 
> Want to fix the problem... NO Binoculars period...


That's absurd. If you can pick up a 12 at 50+ yards without them you're far better than I.


----------



## TobyR.

JAVI said:


> Nothing will be done to him..
> 
> Want to fix the problem... NO Binoculars period...


Now Javi.... can you imagine the imagine the uproar if binos are outlawed? There are already too many reasons/excuses for missing in 3D. This would just add to the fire. Inconsistent ring placement, angled targets etc would be a nightmare! Equipment checks and integrity are the answer... If there is a change I'd rather see doing away with the yardage guessing contest and making it a shooting contest...... but that'll never happen :wink:


----------



## kingalw

TobyR. said:


> Now Javi.... can you imagine the imagine the uproar if binos are outlawed? There are already too many reasons/excuses for missing in 3D. This would just add to the fire. Inconsistent ring placement, angled targets etc would be a nightmare! Equipment checks and integrity are the answer... If there is a change I'd rather see doing away with the yardage guessing contest and making it a shooting contest...... but that'll never happen :wink:


Shoot K45 or K50


----------



## shootist

According to the rules, he is good to go for the rest of the year. Only his 2nd offense would eliminate him for the remainder of the season. Theoretically, he might still win Shooter of the Year.

Rules below:

"In all Unknown Distance competitions any form of range finding is prohibited:
All distances will be judged by the naked eye. No equipment, including but not limited to sights, binoculars, or spotting scopes will be used in a manner inconsistent with this prohibition. Using any part of the shooter’s body is prohibited, which includes “gapping techniques” that may also use equipment, or the “stepping off” of the distance to, or from, any target. Shooters may carry “target cards” reflecting a picture or rendering of the specific targets being shot, but no marks or notations of any type may be made on these cards. In addition, the prohibition on marks or notations includes carrying, or making, any additional notes about yardages or features of any target on a competition range. Exchanging target information with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is also strictly prohibited. This prohibition includes the taking of notes on target distances which is prohibited under Rule “S” on range finding. Violations will be referred to the Competition Committee. The first offense will result in disqualification of the shooter from the event. A second offense will result in a suspension for the remainder of the tournament season with no refund of any entry fees paid."


----------



## murph62

My son Luke shoots at proams with his son. They have shared the podium at Louisiana and this weekend in Paris..I will say out of all the kids that Luke has met at proams ,his son is his best buddy at these shoots. As for me and my family we will be praying for this family and will still consider them as our friends ... Marlon Orsburn


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## Kale

The scoring rings are in the same spot all the time..don't the asa ranges use the same 20 targets on each course? Just do away with binos all together. not only would it take out the risk of something like this happening again but it would speed it up as well.


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## Sentinalonfire

I was just told that the only thing the Asa was going too do was dq his sunday round, NOTHING ELSE.. This came from a state asa rep, if its true i may never attend another... If thats the penalty for robbery why not just legalize rangefinders for all?


----------



## ky hammer

i am going to say this and maybe its out of line but i hear on this site all the time how there is no cheating at the ASA shoots and how the IBO has all the cheaters. now if nothing is done to someone that is caught red handed shooting in semi-pro at an ASA ProAm then Mike Terrel has gotten the last membership fee of mine he will ever get.


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## ohiobullseye

If this is true only DQ for Sunday round I wouldn't trust him again and I think this dosn't stop from this happening again. This "if true" ASA is just a joke a slap on the wrist for cheating in an major event.


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## fletched

ASA should ask him to compete in the next shoot without that particular set of binos and see what happens to his score.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Sentinalonfire said:


> I was just told that the only thing the Asa was going too do was dq his sunday round, NOTHING ELSE.. This came from a state asa rep, if its true i may never attend another... If thats the penalty for robbery why not just legalize rangefinders for all?


100% true. He not the first guy caught cheating. ASA doesnt seem to take it serious. Actually some have been caught and just given a warning.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

fletched said:


> ASA should ask him to compete in the next shoot without that particular set of binos and see what happens to his score.


We all know the scores are going to suffer.
DB


----------



## bowsrd

fletched said:


> ASA should ask him to compete in the next shoot without that particular set of binos and see what happens to his score.


That will definitely happen anyway. There is no way anyone will let him shoot with those binoculars again. If I shot with him, I would ask to look through them myself. If they let him come back, which they will, it won't stop me from going. I am now more knowledgeable about the rules and I'm not giving any more info after the shot.


----------



## t8ter

He only got caught for sure Sunday.Really they can't prove he used them before(I know we all think different)but from this day forward there needs to be something changed.There is no way I would let this stop me from shooting.lol


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## Kstigall

I don't believe the ASA, IBO or the NFAA do much to serious cheaters. It's one thing to cheat for a $3 trophy. It's a different thing when you travel the country ripping off people. Michael Vincent cheated every single person in Semi-Pro class at the very least. 

He most likely has cheated many times in the past. Did he not win Open "A" last year at London and Illinois? I find it hard to believe that someone that can win two majors in Open "A" would suddenly start cheating the following season. He probably has been doing it for some time and if he hasn't it's his own fault that people are questioning his integrity. I'd like to hear his "line". I bet it includes "it was the first time, I swear". He might even drag up a tear and thump a bible.

Does anyone recall from back in the day the "out house tuning" or "tiller tuning" episode? Bows were a lot slower then and a few cranks on the limbs would make a difference.


----------



## Bowtech11

Okay I can't stand it anymore, he broke the rules he should be banned! But the rule states that first time is DQ and a warning so we live with it. Rule states that we can not shoot on the stake one time per tournament with a warning, I know some have done that. Saw one in Texas shootdown. Yes it is bad that someone stoops this low to win, but we all know that others are doing something that is border line. Tell me how many of you never walk off a target or even have been with someone that does and ask him what you got. Those of you that have not cast the first stone. Sorry I do not know Michael Vincent and don't care too, I myself do not need to win by cheating to feel like someone. Michael Vincent if you are reading this an apology too everyone that has ever shot a bow is in order and humbly confess how long you have done this. Not only on here but also in front of everyone at an ASA event


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## archermarj

I am going to try to choose my words very carefully here. I know many many people who shoot in the semi pro and I have been shooting ASA tournaments for years. That being said, cheating makes me feel emotions from disappointed something like this could happen to mad that someone would do this. I believe that a severe offense like this should lead to a rest of the year ban, but if that is not in the rules, then it won't happen. They may put it in the rules for next year. If Michael apologizes takes his penalty and makes right, it will go a long way in restoring his name. Some people will never forgive, some people will and sooner than not the whole thing will be in the past. Hopefully people will learn from this, that even if the ASA doesn't do anything, his reputation and name are ruined. There is much worse than getting banned from shooting, like losing integrity and respect in the eyes of others. Ripples from this might happen in the ASA or IBO rules; maybe some minor checks.

For those who are screaming for rule changes. First of all, have you ever been to an ASA? If you have then you know that checking every person's equipment would be an impossible task. There are sometimes 1500 shooters. A random equipment check as they do with the speed limits seems more likely. Cell phones are getting to be an issue and the ASA might choose to do something about it when they feel that it is necessary. 

To all the people that say just to outlaw binos: Are you serious?! Have you ever shot 3d? What about lenses in scopes? Clarifiers? How about my contacts (I know a little too far), should we ban these also? But outlawing binos is a little too far also. It is a slippery slope. Don't let a cheater ruin a sport for everyone. Learn from it, be more aware that it could happen and be as honest of a person as you can be.

My 2 cents.

See you all in Georgia, where I will be smiling and waiting to shoot again.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Bowtech11 said:


> Okay I can't stand it anymore, he broke the rules he should be banned! But the rule states that first time is DQ and a warning so we live with it. Rule states that we can not shoot on the stake one time per tournament with a warning, I know some have done that. Saw one in Texas shootdown. Yes it is bad that someone stoops this low to win, but we all know that others are doing something that is border line. Tell me how many of you never walk off a target or even have been with someone that does and ask him what you got. Those of you that have not cast the first stone. Sorry I do not know Michael Vincent and don't care too, I myself do not need to win by cheating to feel like someone. Michael Vincent if you are reading this an apology too everyone that has ever shot a bow is in order and humbly confess how long you have done this. Not only on here but also in front of everyone at an ASA event


 Will see if a apology comes. I feel he got his excuses ready to roll and it was an honest mistake all the time.
DB


----------



## archermarj

Bowtech11 said:


> Okay I can't stand it anymore, he broke the rules he should be banned! But the rule states that first time is DQ and a warning so we live with it. Rule states that we can not shoot on the stake one time per tournament with a warning, I know some have done that. Saw one in Texas shootdown. Yes it is bad that someone stoops this low to win, but we all know that others are doing something that is border line. Tell me how many of you never walk off a target or even have been with someone that does and ask him what you got. Those of you that have not cast the first stone. Sorry I do not know Michael Vincent and don't care too, I myself do not need to win by cheating to feel like someone. Michael Vincent if you are reading this an apology too everyone that has ever shot a bow is in order and humbly confess how long you have done this. Not only on here but also in front of everyone at an ASA event



I have never walked off a target at an ASA event and that is cheating.


----------



## Kstigall

I'm with DB. I expect he's working on his excuses and delivery. I expect "I forgot to take the battery out, honest" is #1 on his list. I also expect he won't come here. Better to manipulate people face-to-face to build up a support system to help counter the facts and eye witnesses.


----------



## jjf41380

I dont see why him or anyone else should be allowed to walk onto a course with a pair of binos that have a rangefinder built into them, batteries or not. By allowing such a thing to go on it is only presenting the opportunity for something like this to happen. It is clearly stated in the rules that rangefinders are not allowed on the course. A rangefinder without batteries installed is still a rangefinder


----------



## sagecreek

"I swear, I did not press the button on those binos." lain:


----------



## JAVI

Yes... I've shot a few tournments in my time...  

Come on, you know it would be more fun without binos... They're just a crutch anyway... not to mention how much faster a round would go...

And all of you who have been around for a while know that outside of public opinion there will be nothing done... and in a couple of months all this will be forgotten amid another brouhaha and he'll be back shooting again.. that’s the nature of the game


----------



## Kale

archermarj said:


> I am going to try to choose my words very carefully here. I know many many people who shoot in the semi pro and I have been shooting ASA tournaments for years. That being said, cheating makes me feel emotions from disappointed something like this could happen to mad that someone would do this. I believe that a severe offense like this should lead to a rest of the year ban, but if that is not in the rules, then it won't happen. They may put it in the rules for next year. If Michael apologizes takes his penalty and makes right, it will go a long way in restoring his name. Some people will never forgive, some people will and sooner than not the whole thing will be in the past. Hopefully people will learn from this, that even if the ASA doesn't do anything, his reputation and name are ruined. There is much worse than getting banned from shooting, like losing integrity and respect in the eyes of others. Ripples from this might happen in the ASA or IBO rules; maybe some minor checks.
> 
> For those who are screaming for rule changes. First of all, have you ever been to an ASA? If you have then you know that checking every person's equipment would be an impossible task. There are sometimes 1500 shooters. A random equipment check as they do with the speed limits seems more likely. Cell phones are getting to be an issue and the ASA might choose to do something about it when they feel that it is necessary.
> 
> To all the people that say just to outlaw binos: Are you serious?! Have you ever shot 3d? What about lenses in scopes? Clarifiers? How about my contacts (I know a little too far), should we ban these also? But outlawing binos is a little too far also. It is a slippery slope. Don't let a cheater ruin a sport for everyone. Learn from it, be more aware that it could happen and be as honest of a person as you can be.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> See you all in Georgia, where I will be smiling and waiting to shoot again.


Comparing a lens in a scope to binos is not a fair comparision. I shoot a ton of 3d, If they banned binos it would not be the end of the world. 

And why would it be impossible to check everyones equipment? How do you collect the entry fees? When they come up to pay the entry fee you check the equipment and it is marked in some way (we use a unique sticker) Then judges do random spot checks on the course


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## archermarj

We sign up ahead of time. There is usually only 2-5 people signing shooters up at any given time. They are always busy. Over 1000 shooters. Most of the time I don't have the equipment with me when I sign up. Also at Paris you weren't allowed to have your equipment at the sign up booth. Couldn't bring bows and stools in building.


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## bowhuntntxn

Seems somehow the fact that the logos on the bios were change in an attempt to disguise the fact that they were actually range finding binos. That would indicate an intent to cheat for as long as possible. That needs to be addressed more than anything else IMO. Does Alpen even have a pair of binos that resemble the ones in question? So not only was he cheating the ASA, he was treating every person he shot with like they were too stupid to know what range finding binos look like compared to other brands. 

I am interested to see where this goes. The only way it will matter is if everyone one the same stake as him in the net shoot refuses to shoot with him and demands their money back. If that is even possible.


----------



## TOOL

JAVI said:


> Yes... I've shot a few tournments in my time...
> 
> Come on, you know it would be more fun without binos... They're just a crutch anyway... not to mention how much faster a round would go...
> 
> And all of you who have been around for a while know that outside of public opinion there will be nothing done... and in a couple of months all this will be forgotten amid another brouhaha and he'll be back shooting again.. that’s the nature of the game


The scandal has even brought JAVI out to play. Good to see you posting again.

As for probable statements, my money is on: "those are my hunting binos, and I normally have the batteries removed for competition, but forgot."

It would be nice to see the "no range finder" rule enforced including those in binos. Batteries or not.


----------



## ABTABB

My biggest gripe with the punishment is in theory, Someone caught stepping off a target after He shoots gets the same punishment as a Semi-Pro that is ranging every target with RF Binos, that He intentionaly disguised and kept hidden in His chair, for who knows how long... 

The Rules state the ASA has the right to refuse Anyone from competing... I think They should exercise this option, given the severity of His actions... I'm a Lifetime Member and have always supported the ASA 100%, but this has Me questioning Their stance on Fair Competition... I'm pretty sure the Rules were altered in IL, last year after the rain cancelled the 2nd round for some, and rightfully so...


----------



## TobyR.

kingalw said:


> Shoot K45 or K50


....... And how would this do away with cheating in the yardage guessing classes?


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## reylamb

ABTABB said:


> My biggest gripe with the punishment is in theory, Someone caught stepping off a target after He shoots gets the same punishment as a Semi-Pro that is ranging every target with RF Binos, that He intentionaly disguised and kept hidden in His chair, for who knows how long...
> 
> The Rules state the ASA has the right to refuse Anyone from competing... I think They should exercise this option, given the severity of His actions... I'm a Lifetime Member and have always supported the ASA 100%, but this has Me questioning Their stance on Fair Competition... I'm pretty sure the Rules were altered in IL, last year after the rain cancelled the 2nd round for some, and rightfully so...


The weather rules were changed several years back after severe thunderstorms at the Classic.....next time you see Strick just ask him, he remembers that weekend well!!!!!


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## Sentinalonfire

You cant fix STUPID, i've figured this out today reading some peoples rediculous comments... Plain an simple folks he was flat out stealing from his fellow competitors...


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## t8ter

reylamb said:


> The weather rules were changed several years back after severe thunderstorms at the Classic.....next time you see Strick just ask him, he remembers that weekend well!!!!!


I didn't think you had to ask!


----------



## reylamb

t8ter said:


> I didn't think you had to ask!


Tater, you are probably correct......he remembers that well!!!!!


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## kingalw

TobyR. said:


> ....... And how would this do away with cheating in the yardage guessing classes?


It wouldn't. You want a "shooting contest" instead of having to judge yards. If that's the case, then they have 2 classes for you.


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## Bowjoe1972

Whats wrong with his bino's ????






:wink:


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## ohiobullseye

Bowjoe1972 said:


> Whats wrong with his bino's ????
> View attachment 1324785
> :wink:


Nothing is wrong with them, what are you all talking about they are totally legal? LOL That's a good interpitation of what Michael Vincent did.


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## jackthehitman

spot checking people does not work. they could take the top five shooters and check their equipment for (fps,binos,etc....) if you are found to be not legal than you are disqualified for that shoot.


----------



## wheresthebear

My problem with checking the Top 5 or so is this. If I was cheating and knew it, and then found out that I finished in the Top 5 after all the scores were added up do you think Im going the bring what ever I was using to inspection? That would be a big HELL NO, I would bring the proper equipment to inspection. They have to figure out a way to inspect everyone with out slowing the prosses down. Im glad I dont have to figure that one out.

As for what Vincent did, I do not argee it. I know him and have shot with him. I was very suprised when I got the news. We will have to wait and see what ASA deisdes to do.


As for his son, I have read a few comments that have come close to calling is boy a cheater. Michael got busted not his boy, please leave his boys name out of any post.

Thanks


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## dw'struth

jackthehitman said:


> spot checking people does not work. they could take the top five shooters and check their equipment for (fps,binos,etc....) if you are found to be not legal than you are disqualified for that shoot.


I like that idea. If one is cheating, and comes in 30th, it doesn't really hurt anyone. It could even be the top ten for each shoot in SOY classes.....

Edit.....that is also true about being hard to do. Maybe check the top 10 while from Sat. while they are on the range (or going to the range) Sun.:dontknow: It would be great if everyone would just play fair.


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## Babyk

If you are caught cheating and it can be proven you should have a lifetime ban in my book....we all love archery who attend these events sad to think somone would do this


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## TobyR.

kingalw said:


> It wouldn't. You want a "shooting contest" instead of having to judge yards. If that's the case, then they have 2 classes for you.


I'm aware of the classes...... You missed my point.


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## jackthehitman

the range offical who thakes your card at the end of the range holds top 5 shooters ...as a higher scores come in the lower one leaves,when all scores are in then he checks your equipment, right then and there. any problems DQ no questions asked.


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## hstubblefield

Sentinalonfire said:


> I was just told that the only thing the Asa was going too do was dq his sunday round, NOTHING ELSE.. This came from a state asa rep, if its true i may never attend another... If thats the penalty for robbery why not just legalize rangefinders for all?


If thats all they will do I will not shoot another Asa shoot,They just seem to think cheating is not a big deal or something..Sure wont be fair for all the other semi guys..


----------



## Sweaver

Young Gunna said:


> Man! I cant even believe this. Coming from the same guy who won the sportsmanship award. Just unreal!


Maybe he's from Ohio and learned from a coach that wrote a book with "Integrity" in the title? Not sure on that though. 


Hoyt CRX 35


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## mod10g

It would still need to be a random check otherwise if you had a good shoot you could just have a buddy hold your binos on the way out. What needs to happen is at different ranges each day as you make the turn at both ends of the range you have two guys checking equipment, after 10 groups the whole range has been checked, it wouldn't take that long and everyone is checked, it's still not perfect but it would make it harder to pass off the illegal equipment and would be a random check.


----------



## frog gigger

Kstigall said:


> I don't believe the ASA, IBO or the NFAA do much to serious cheaters. It's one thing to cheat for a $3 trophy. It's a different thing when you travel the country ripping off people. Michael Vincent cheated every single person in Semi-Pro class at the very least.
> 
> He most likely has cheated many times in the past. Did he not win Open "A" last year at London and Illinois? I find it hard to believe that someone that can win two majors in Open "A" would suddenly start cheating the following season. He probably has been doing it for some time and if he hasn't it's his own fault that people are questioning his integrity. I'd like to hear his "line". I bet it includes "it was the first time, I swear". He might even drag up a tear and thump a bible.
> 
> Does anyone recall from back in the day the "out house tuning" or "tiller tuning" episode? Bows were a lot slower then and a few cranks on the limbs would make a difference.


No, he did not win Illinois last year. If it happened last year, it really burns me that this is what the A class had to compete against. On a side note, ASA has at least tried to eliminate some of the cheating by double staking and last minute range changes due to people stepping yardage and telling their buds how many yards target number X or Y is for the next day.


----------



## Babyk

if all they do is cancel his Sunday round and not ban this guy for at least a year (lifetime ban is in order if you ask me) then it will be hard for me to not be upset!!!
he took the time to make them look like they were another brand of binoculars and hide them in between shots...that to me shows premeditated intent to not only break the rules but win in less than honriable way....

I hope this is not ASA finally say in this matter


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## dmcraney

I think when you go to a ASA shoot every person in your group should inspect each other bino, own the very first target.


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## FishAlaska

*FOR SALE: Alpen Binos, well used but still in good condition*

Excellent Optics, "when I get them back", complete with rangefinding capabilities. Just push the Alpen insignia to see range displayed. Bought from a garage sale so no warranties. Price TBD, Paypal accepted TYD lower 48 only. Used for a few seasons only!

Beware of Ads like this!


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## buckman2591

LoL


----------



## bmeese21

Does anyone know why the range offical decided to check Vincents equipment? Was it a random check? Or did one of the shooters notice it and told a range offical? Or was the ASA suspicious about his scores so they had an offical check his equipment? 

I wish he would have got caught at one of the ibo events. He was hiding his binos in his seat and covering them up with a towel. One of my buddies shot with him in Alabama and he said this is what he was doing. My other buddy shot with him in florida and he said he was doing the same thing. Neither one of them thought anything about it because he comes off as such a nice guy. They just thought he was shooting lights out. He was in first place at Alabama until his arrow hit a branch on the second day and he blanked a target. If he didn't hit that branch he might of taken first place. Then he shot 24 up at Florida. I didn't go but I heard it was a very challenging course. I met him at Subway and bs'ed with him for about 45 min. I told my buddies you couldn't meet a nicer guy. 

What bothers me the most about this is he could still win the IBO southern tripple crown. And he could win the IBO shooter of the year. Luke Schirf would be in first place in the STC if it wasn't for Vincent. But instead he trails Vincent by 15 points. Hes taking away from a great shooter that deserves to be in first place after the first two legs. 

I really hope Vincent comes forward and admits to all the times he used the range finder at national shoots. He needs to apologize to all of the shooters that he hurt in the process and both organizations. He needs to forfeit his wins and he shouldn't be elegible for any awards this year. If he can be a man and take the blame for his actions I could forgive him, but if he comes out and says that was the first time he had ever used them, then I wouldn't believe him, along with many other. Even though he wasn't caught at the IBO, everyone knows he was using those binoculars. The scores he posted were unreal.

If I were you Michael Vincent I would come clean about my past. I would notify the ASA and the IBO about what you were doing and how long you have been doing it. I would apologize to Everyone that you hurt, and I would let them know the truth about what you have been doing. This sounds like the the hard way, but it is the only way you will ever get respect from shooters again.


----------



## Kale

What if Mr. Vincent showed up at the next shoot with no binos at all and still whooped on everyone? what would you all say then? Just curious..


----------



## mag41vance

Kstigall said:


> Don't feel bad. The world is full of very "honest" crooks. Just becuase they are crooks doen't mean they are stupid and appear to be crooked. Just look at all the religious leaders that have been busted for much worse crimes. School teachers, PTA treasurers, police officers and the like make the news every day. In fact a good crook is probably above average intelligience and very adept at manipulating people.
> 
> 
> 
> Read my above comment to bkr39.
> 
> 
> 
> He appears to be good looking, honest and charismatic. But look at all the politicians that go to prison. Most every one of them is charismatic and "honest" looking.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't feel bad. If he can travel the country lieing to everyone a face to face lie is a gimme' for him. He may even play the "good christian" and profess the devil made him do it and be reborn. It's easy to seek forgiveness AFTER you've been caught with your pants down. It burns my butt when the scum of the earth use their "good christian values" as a tool to steal. How can he ever be totally trusted again? Sure I'd forgive him but it doesn't mean I'd ever totally trust him
> 
> 
> 
> Well big boy here's your 5 minutes of fame!! Enjoy! If you play this right you can get more attention by becoming re-born and professing that overwhelmed your good christain soul.


Kent,
I think you should take great care when your passion / zeal for integrity causes you to start painting groups of people with such broad strokes. Don't let one persons integrity issues prompt you to jump on a soap box and bring other peoples Christian values or lack thereof into question. Christian Values are lived out not bragged about. The issue at hand is Mr. Vincents, not the Christian or political community.
One thing I've noticed, is Christians rarely get away with anything. There's always someone watching and waiting for them to prove there're only human! I repeat, Christian Values should be lived out, not bragged about.


----------



## ShoeLace2332

It sucks that people do that cheating only hurts your self I did my first out door 3d shoot last weekend at Prestonsburgh on the Jenny wiley state park qualifier and it was a hard course every target stretched but we saw a guy who was shooting by himself wish we knew his name so we could see his score you know when you shoot by yourself your gonna score higher it all goes along the line of cheating yourself


----------



## DeluxeRaider

Kale said:


> What if Mr. Vincent showed up at the next shoot with no binos at all and still whooped on everyone? what would you all say then? Just curious..


Nobody is saying that he is not a good shot, what we are saying is that he had an affair advantage and stole money from the other competitors when he used the rangefinder to win.

Plain and simple, he cheated and should have to suffer the consequences.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Kale said:


> What if Mr. Vincent showed up at the next shoot with no binos at all and still whooped on everyone? what would you all say then? Just curious..


He still cheated and other lost to a cheater. What would it matter? 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

bmeese21 said:


> Does anyone know why the range offical decided to check Vincents equipment? Was it a random check? Or did one of the shooters notice it and told a range offical? Or was the ASA suspicious about his scores so they had an offical check his equipment?
> 
> I wish he would have got caught at one of the ibo events. He was hiding his binos in his seat and covering them up with a towel. One of my buddies shot with him in Alabama and he said this is what he was doing. My other buddy shot with him in florida and he said he was doing the same thing. Neither one of them thought anything about it because he comes off as such a nice guy. They just thought he was shooting lights out. He was in first place at Alabama until his arrow hit a branch on the second day and he blanked a target. If he didn't hit that branch he might of taken first place. Then he shot 24 up at Florida. I didn't go but I heard it was a very challenging course. I met him at Subway and bs'ed with him for about 45 min. I told my buddies you couldn't meet a nicer guy.
> 
> What bothers me the most about this is he could still win the IBO southern tripple crown. And he could win the IBO shooter of the year. Luke Schirf would be in first place in the STC if it wasn't for Vincent. But instead he trails Vincent by 15 points. Hes taking away from a great shooter that deserves to be in first place after the first two legs.
> 
> I really hope Vincent comes forward and admits to all the times he used the range finder at national shoots. He needs to apologize to all of the shooters that he hurt in the process and both organizations. He needs to forfeit his wins and he shouldn't be elegible for any awards this year. If he can be a man and take the blame for his actions I could forgive him, but if he comes out and says that was the first time he had ever used them, then I wouldn't believe him, along with many other. Even though he wasn't caught at the IBO, everyone knows he was using those binoculars. The scores he posted were unreal.
> 
> If I were you Michael Vincent I would come clean about my past. I would notify the ASA and the IBO about what you were doing and how long you have been doing it. I would apologize to Everyone that you hurt, and I would let them know the truth about what you have been doing. This sounds like the the hard way, but it is the only way you will ever get respect from shooters again.


He been doing this now for over a year atleast. No telling how many should have won but due to him cheating lost. Very sad for fellow archers who lost due to this
DB


----------



## FishAlaska

jackthehitman said:


> the range offical who thakes your card at the end of the range holds top 5 shooters ...as a higher scores come in the lower one leaves,when all scores are in then he checks your equipment, right then and there. any problems DQ no questions asked.


Better yet than making people wait is to check everyone that shot even and above. Cake! Said offender kept his binos in a bag though or his seat....are we going to be wanting to search for illegal equipment or just what is in plain view?

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Unbelievable. Thanks asa!


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## Kstigall

Vance,
I was not and I am NOT painting any group. Michael Vincent used being a christian man as a basis for why he wouldn't cheat. I'm certainly not questioning your or anyone else's religious values!!!!! The point I was trying to make is that bad people will use positions of authority, respect, trust and power to manipulate people, cheat people and use people for their own benefit. Children are particularly vulnerable as are many people in time of need. A con man uses whatever he has at his disposal to have his way. As we know bad people have abused people's religious faith since the beginning of time.

I hope you don't think I'm attacking the christian faith if so you are sadly mistaken. I do find those that use their religious faith or virtue for bad particularly appalling. I think of myself as a Christian knowing that I am an immensely flawed one. I would think someone that strives to be a good christian would find those using "I'm a good christian" as cover for conceit particularly appalling.

I apologize for jumping "up on a soap box" and for giving you the impression that I was criticizing every faithful christian or politician. Such is NOT the case as I personally know and have great respect for many of each. 



mag41vance said:


> Kent,
> I think you should take great care when your passion / zeal for integrity causes you to start painting groups of people with such broad strokes. Don't let one persons integrity issues prompt you to jump on a soap box and bring other peoples Christian values or lack thereof into question. Christian Values are lived out not bragged about. The issue at hand is Mr. Vincents, not the Christian or political community.
> One thing I've noticed, is Christians rarely get away with anything. There's always someone watching and waiting for them to prove there're only human! I repeat, Christian Values should be lived out, not bragged about.


----------



## mag41vance

Kstigall said:


> Vance,
> I was not and I am NOT painting any group. Michael Vincent used being a christian man as a basis for why he wouldn't cheat. I'm certainly not questioning your or anyone else's religious values!!!!! The point I was trying to make is that bad people will use positions of authority, respect, trust and power to manipulate people, cheat people and use people for their own benefit. Children are particularly vulnerable as are many people in time of need. A con man uses whatever he has at his disposal to have his way. As we know bad people have abused people's religious faith since the beginning of time.
> 
> I hope you don't think I'm attacking the christian faith if so you are sadly mistaken. I do find those that use their religious faith or virtue for bad particularly appalling. I think of myself as a Christian knowing that I am an immensely flawed one. I would think someone that strives to be a good christian would find those using "I'm a good christian" as cover for conceit particularly appalling.
> 
> I apologize for jumping "up on a soap box" and for giving you the impression that I was criticizing every faithful christian or politician. Such is NOT the case as I personally know and have great respect for many of each.


 I agree. Using an epitaph of Faith to cover your tracks is a disgusting act. 
I appreciate the clarification. 
I do hope all people will learn from the mistakes of others. I've made my share of learning opportunities for others I'm sure.

Cheating always hurts more people than just the one doing the act.

Take Care. And like always, shoot straight! :becky:
Vance


----------



## Dmack

I am still looking for an apology of some kind to everyone that shoots archery. By not saying anything is like not seeing wrong in his doing.


----------



## treeman65

Dmack said:


> I am still looking for an apology of some kind to everyone that shoots archery. By not saying anything is like not seeing wrong in his doing.


what good does that do the scumbag got away with stealing


----------



## watermedic23

This infraction should go to the tournament committee and let them decide the punishment. He has won $1200 so far this year. 

While I feel that everyone should be held accountable for their actions, the further up the ladder you are the more accountability you have. 

A lifetime ban fom ASA would not be too harsh. He should be able to request to be reinstated on a probationary status after 5 years. The probationary period should be at least one full season.


----------



## Supermag1

I wonder if a Semi-pro shootoff would have revealed this sooner (or at least put the right person at the top).


----------



## cshive

Supermag1 said:


> I wonder if a Semi-pro shootoff would have revealed this sooner (or at least put the right person at the top).


I like your thoughts


----------



## J Whittington

cory I hate that you got cheated out of the win and the 1000 from mathews contengiency.


----------



## Frederick D. Be

There are people like that in every walk of life...and they have to live with themselves...and the rest of us. I hope he learned a very valuable lesson and is given a period of time to think about what his actions have caused and will cause. This is a good reminder to us all to be as professional as we possibly can when we are on the line. None of us are perfect either so let's get on with life...live and learn and keep trying to be as honest as we can. Cheers!
Fred


----------



## Babyk

Semi-Pro Shootdown would be a very good idea.....wounder why ASA has not considered it


----------



## cshive

J Whittington said:


> cory I hate that you got cheated out of the win and the 1000 from mathews contengiency.


Thanks but we don't know for sure he used them there so until he says so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I just hope the sport doesn't suffer from people hanging on to it. All we can do is move foward from here.


----------



## J Whittington

Cory I shot with him on sat. He did use them with same routine as in texas. He coverd them with a towel and put them in his chair after each use.
Cory apologize for being so stupid and not noticing it.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

I myself think cory would have won that shoot in LA, I hope we can all just move on and enjoy the sport of 3D archery that we all love and support, it is a bad situation and I am ready to move on no use stirring the pot any longer, let me be the first to congrat you cory on what I will call a victory for you, lets all be men help each other and LET it go!


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## JimmyP

asa records it looks like he possibly used them in maybe 4 turn. London 2011 open a all 3 this year he never shot to good in known 45 the best he placed was 7 place.k45 will tell you how good a shot a person is.so you shoot in the average k45 in 2010 you win the last turn he shot in in 2012 in open a then goes to semi and placed in the first 2 of the year and gets caught in the 3rd one. i new guys that won in k45 and cant place in open a.


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## deadeyedickwc

sounds like the asa need to do some sort of a spot check if nothing else I'm sure he can't be the only one who does that , i bet if you start looking you will find a few more.thats how it is ,


----------



## J Whittington

deadeyedickwc said:


> sounds like the asa need to do some sort of a spot check if nothing else I'm sure he can't be the only one who does that , i bet if you start looking you will find a few more.thats how it is ,


Possible, but I highly doubt it.


----------



## colo_dually

If there were more guys running a covert Ziess or equivalent RF, doubt any would be foolish enough to have it with them in the field until this heat dies down.


----------



## ABTABB

Mike posted this on the ASA Forum, I feel better knowing it's going to be further Evaluated...

Range Finder Disqualification In Texas

Please be advised that pursuant to ASA Rules the situation that arose in Texas on the semi-pro range regarding range finders has been referred to the Competition Committee for disciplinary review. Upon the completion of their research they will determine what additional sanctions may be imposed. 

We appreciate everyone providing the Competition Committee the time to fully review this and provide the proper disposition.

[email protected]


----------



## JimmyP

when will there ruling be made


----------



## field14

I've read most of the posts, may have missed a page or two, but no more than that...I posted my thoughts earlier.

However, all I'm seeing with regard to any action taken is for "rules violations". Not a single person has mentioned two other areas where I think major violations have occurrred:

1. Unsportsmanlike conduct.
2. Code of Ethics.

From everything I've read so far, it is of course pretty certain the no rangefinding rules were violated. That apparently is a give.

However, IMHO...worse yet are the two I mention above...Apparently, this person tried to HIDE what he has been and was doing when he was reported, checked, and caught. At that point, he should have been immediately DQ'd...ON THE SPOT for the range-finding rules violations. Then comes the unsportsmanlike conduct and code of ethics violations that should also count into this matrix!

He not only cheated, apparently he has stolen, he tried to hide what he was doing, and he basically scammed all the other shooters in his semi-pro division. This is SERIOUS, and should take precedent over the "range-finding rules" violations! Those are miniscule compared to what he's done to his fellow competitors and to the reputation of the ASA in and of itself.

I know that a life-time ban is not about to happen...but to do NOTHING but to DQ him for this one tournament....is NOT adequate, and would be a travesty. It gives others a "license to steal" by coming up with some other scheme and hope not to get caught., if someone already hasn't been using this or some other enhanced rules violation(s).

I know about precedents and all this stuff...but from what I've read on this thread; if it is true, then the hammer needs to fall and hold this person accountable and to face a very, very stiff penalty. That, of course, isn't up to me or the rest of you on this forum...but....we all seem to agree that more action than just a slap on the wrist with one DQ and clear the file should be undertaken.

I guess we'll see soon what will happen. I would suspect that if nothing is done at all, this person is going to have one heckuva hard time at the events he attends (if he bothers to) the rest of this year. Somebody mentioned he could still be eligible for SOY points? Say WHAT? Good grief! That is like an NBA player being caught shaving points and still get MVP! Do you think that would happen in the NBA. 

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## FishAlaska

field14 said:


> I've read most of the posts, may have missed a page or two, but no more than that...I posted my thoughts earlier.
> 
> However, all I'm seeing with regard to any action taken is for "rules violations". Not a single person has mentioned two other areas where I think major violations have occurrred:
> 
> 1. Unsportsmanlike conduct.
> 2. Code of Ethics.
> 
> From everything I've read so far, it is of course pretty certain the no rangefinding rules were violated. That apparently is a give.
> 
> However, IMHO...worse yet are the two I mention above...Apparently, this person tried to HIDE what he has been and was doing when he was reported, checked, and caught. At that point, he should have been immediately DQ'd...ON THE SPOT for the range-finding rules violations. Then comes the unsportsmanlike conduct and code of ethics violations that should also count into this matrix!
> 
> He not only cheated, apparently he has stolen, he tried to hide what he was doing, and he basically scammed all the other shooters in his semi-pro division. This is SERIOUS, and should take precedent over the "range-finding rules" violations! Those are miniscule compared to what he's done to his fellow competitors and to the reputation of the ASA in and of itself.
> 
> I know that a life-time ban is not about to happen...but to do NOTHING but to DQ him for this one tournament....is NOT adequate, and would be a travesty. It gives others a "license to steal" by coming up with some other scheme and hope not to get caught., if someone already hasn't been using this or some other enhanced rules violation(s).
> 
> I know about precedents and all this stuff...but from what I've read on this thread; if it is true, then the hammer needs to fall and hold this person accountable and to face a very, very stiff penalty. That, of course, isn't up to me or the rest of you on this forum...but....we all seem to agree that more action than just a slap on the wrist with one DQ and clear the file should be undertaken.
> 
> I guess we'll see soon what will happen. I would suspect that if nothing is done at all, this person is going to have one heckuva hard time at the events he attends (if he bothers to) the rest of this year. Somebody mentioned he could still be eligible for SOY points? Say WHAT? Good grief! That is like an NBA player being caught shaving points and still get MVP! Do you think that would happen in the NBA.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I doubt the resolution will be made public Tom. Reo's resolution at Vegas was never made public if anything was even dealt with in his case. It is what it is, all we can do is move on. He will pay the price some day as will all the others in his shoes.


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## TOMMYY01

I really hate to see someone cheat. It sickens me to my stomach. I'm glad that I shoot the best I can, and only hope to even to shoot even. I've only shot even 2X in my whole life. I know this sounds dumb, but I'm glad I will never be able to knock anyone out of any money or trophy, of course unless I'm the olny one in that class!!:wink:


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## Iluvatar

Ban or not, do you guys really think he would have the guts to show his face again at any major shoot? I don't.


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## la.basscat

I wonder how his score was on the remaining targets after the range official took them from him.


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## John-in-VA

I was thinking the same thing,do you think he will even shoot again ?He would have to face everyone he has cheated face to face .I just dont see him doing it .He know what he was doing and what he had why would he hide them after ever shot .I lay mine on my stool and anyone is more than welcome to try them out and some have .


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## FishAlaska

Iluvatar said:


> Ban or not, do you guys really think he would have the guts to show his face again at any major shoot? I don't.


I dont think so...may be an argument if he does with all the comments he will hear. But you never know. Some people dont care. I dont know this guy or his personality. He could very well show up and shoot the next one. You never know.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Bowtech11

FishAlaska said:


> I dont think so...may be a fight if he does with all the comments he will hear.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Any loser that would steep that low to cheat will not have the guts to fight. If he was a real man he would step up and confess what he did, if he was seen after they took the rangefinder from him his elevator does not go to the top floor.


----------



## markb317

What about the rest of the Semi-Pro's that are shooting for Shooter of the Year award that the winner gets their entry fees paid for next year.The guy that would win that is out a lot of money come next year, and all the contengency money the shooters missed out on by finishing in fourth place instead of third because of his cheating.How many of the top shooters in the class had to change their strategy for shooting to try and catch him in points and shot at 14's and missed to loose points and placings in the standings, is it fair to them if he only gets a slap on the hand?. There has to be a major penalty for this offense if not then it is telling all the guy's he cheated that the organizations does not take archery competions and spotsmanship seriously....


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## Daniel Boone

Apparently he standing he is innocent


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## bowsrd

la.basscat said:


> I wonder how his score was on the remaining targets after the range official took them from him.


I heard that he shot 4 targets after they were taken and he hit a 14, two 12's, and a 5. That's still good shooting.


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## 3dbowmaster

DB after reading conversation that you just posted between him and the other guy. My question now is who is cheater that he bought the binos from at the yardsale?


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## sagecreek

More lieing. lain:


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## 3rdplace

Then why were they covered up in the chair and only brought out at the stake?


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## martha j

this happens more than most people think it does.


----------



## 3dshooter25

I was in his group on Sunday when all of this went down. At first none of us in the group really knew what to think about it because after the range official first confronted him, he was told that he wouldn't be DQ'ed but if he were to win money at this event, it would be protested. I think he convinced Don Bailey that it was an accident and that he didn't know they were RF binocs. Don then took his binocs and Michael swore up and down to us all that he bought them at a garage sale and he would never do anything to cheat because he respected all of us Semi-pros too much. He continued to shoot because he hadn't been DQ'ed yet. 

After about 10 minutes, Don Bailey came back over to our group and told Michael that he was DQ'ed. I think after they took his binocs and studied them, they realized how blatant he was trying to cover up that they were zeiss RF and DQ'ed him. After he was officially DQ'ed I realized that he lied to us and that really pissed me off because he swore up and down that this was all a 
misunderstanding. I noticed his routine was very strange about halfway through the round on Sunday because of how he covered up his binocs with a towel, but I thought he was just trying to keep mud off of them or something. The more I think about how he lied to all of us in his group after he got caught, the more angry I get. I actually at first kind of believed him, because he was very convincing and he promied us all that he would never do anything like that. He did hit a couple low 8s before he was caught with the RF. and I thought that he wouldn't have hit any 8s if he had the yardage. He was probably trying to make it seem more believable by hitting some 8s and not just 12s and 10s. 

One interesting thing that Range official said at first was "you had already been warned yesterday about using those binocs" Michael told him that he had not been told anything though. The range official had been told by at least 2 people that he had been ranging targets.

As far as what he shot on the remaing 7 targets after the binoculars were confiscated, he hit a 5 on the very next shot which was a 45 yard antelope, he then hit a 10, 8, 10, hit 12 on a close bedded buck, hit a 10, and ended up by hitting a 14 on a 21 yard Russian boar. He remained pretty calm after the whole incident and told us he was going to return his winning back to ASA. He is pretty wealthy, and he donates all his winning back to the club or other people. He told us that he gave all his winnings in Lousiana to his coach (Curtis Beverly). He did seem like a very nice guy, and it was hard to believe that he would stoop this low and cheat. He obviously can be very deceptive. 

I feel very bad for his son. Garret walked around with our group on Sunday, and seemed like a great kid who loved the sport of archery. I just hope that he can continue to compete and this whole ordeal doesn't stop him from doing what he loves.


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## ABTABB

sagecreek said:


> More lieing. lain:


Agreed, Just keeps getting worse... NOBODY would sell a $2,500 pair of Bino's at a Yard Sale for $25... And NOBODY is Stupid enough to not notice...


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## J Whittington

3rdplace said:


> Then why were they covered up in the chair and only brought out at the stake?


Notice the battery wasn't dead either


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## Daniel Boone

3dshooter25 said:


> I was in his group on Sunday when all of this went down. At first none of us in the group really knew what to think about it because after the range official first confronted him, he was told that he wouldn't be DQ'ed but if he were to win money at this event, it would be protested. I think he convinced Don Bailey that it was an accident and that he didn't know they were RF binocs. Don then took his binocs and Michael swore up and down to us all that he bought them at a garage sale and he would never do anything to cheat because he respected all of us Semi-pros too much. He continued to shoot because he hadn't been DQ'ed yet.
> 
> After about 10 minutes, Don Bailey came back over to our group and told Michael that he was DQ'ed. I think after they took his binocs and studied them, they realized how blatant he was trying to cover up that they were zeiss RF and DQ'ed him. After he was officially DQ'ed I realized that he lied to us and that really pissed me off because he swore up and down that this was all a
> misunderstanding. I noticed his routine was very strange about halfway through the round on Sunday because of how he covered up his binocs with a towel, but I thought he was just trying to keep mud off of them or something. The more I think about how he lied to all of us in his group after he got caught, the more angry I get. I actually at first kind of believed him, because he was very convincing and he promied us all that he would never do anything like that. He did hit a couple low 8s before he was caught with the RF. and I thought that he wouldn't have hit any 8s if he had the yardage. He was probably trying to make it seem more believable by hitting some 8s and not just 12s and 10s.
> 
> One interesting thing that Range official said at first was "you had already been warned yesterday about using those binocs" Michael told him that he had not been told anything though. The range official had been told by at least 2 people that he had been ranging targets.
> 
> As far as what he shot on the remaing 7 targets after the binoculars were confiscated, he hit a 5 on the very next shot which was a 45 yard antelope, he then hit a 10, 8, 10, hit 12 on a close bedded buck, hit a 10, and ended up by hitting a 14 on a 21 yard Russian boar. He remained pretty calm after the whole incident and told us he was going to return his winning back to ASA. He is pretty wealthy, and he donates all his winning back to the club or other people. He told us that he gave all his winnings in Lousiana to his coach (Curtis Beverly). He did seem like a very nice guy, and it was hard to believe that he would stoop this low and cheat. He obviously can be very deceptive.
> 
> I feel very bad for his son. Garret walked around with our group on Sunday, and seemed like a great kid who loved the sport of archery. I just hope that he can continue to compete and this whole ordeal doesn't stop him from doing what he loves.


Thanks for the heads up. Tim Butts told me he held and even used the binos at the vendors area. He said they were done well. Button took hardly anything to push and record distance. I just think he had his excuse ready planned if caught. Hard to believe others didn't see the red flags sooner. I believe his score at the IBO was got others thinking and looking. Beating pros and shooting those scores is going to draw attention and should. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone

ABTABB said:


> Agreed, Just keeps getting worse... NOBODY would sell a $2,500 pair of Bino's at a Yard Sale for $25... And NOBODY is Stupid enough to not notice...


Thats just another hard to believe story as well.
DB


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## reylamb

markb317 said:


> What about the rest of the Semi-Pro's that are shooting for Shooter of the Year award that the winner gets their entry fees paid for next year.The guy that would win that is out a lot of money come next year, and all the contengency money the shooters missed out on by finishing in fourth place instead of third because of his cheating.How many of the top shooters in the class had to change their strategy for shooting to try and catch him in points and shot at 14's and missed to loose points and placings in the standings, is it fair to them if he only gets a slap on the hand?. There has to be a major penalty for this offense if not then it is telling all the guy's he cheated that the organizations does not take archery competions and spotsmanship seriously....


Unless something changed very recently, the ASA no longer pays the following years' entry fees for SOY winners.....


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## Bowtech11

Okay here is the next question, did he use them during the team shoots also? Where will all the money he stole from individuals end. Starting to think I may need to read all the rules and see what exactly is going on. I know I watched the shootdown Saturday in Texas and saw a lady standing away from the stake, maybe i am in the wrong sport cause I follow the rules


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## FishAlaska

J Whittington said:


> Notice the battery wasn't dead either


They had Energizer Bunny batteries in them. The were part of the 25.00 garage sale deal that took place a while ago. Why cant I ever find a deal like this!

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## carlosii

FishAlaska said:


> They had Energizer Bunny batteries in them. The were part of the 25.00 garage sale deal that took place a while ago. Why cant I ever find a deal like this!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


maybe he bought them through the Storage Wars like on TV...those guys find more great stuff every week than i ever saw.

someone said that he told them he donated all of his winnings to "his" local club. i read somewhere else that the president of that club said he isn't a member and just shows up to shoot once in awhile. who knows....


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## rigginuts

"He obviously can be very deceptive." 


So was Ted Bundy.


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## John-in-VA

I had to call Alpen Today about my Bino in for repair .They should be back Tomorrow .While I had the girl on the phone I asked her if they had heard anything about it and if he was sponsored buy them .She said that they know all about it and that he wasn't sponsored buy Alpen in any way .Not that it matters but she thanked me for asking .


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## CatFan

Should be able to tell by the lot number on the batteries when they were made. If they were made after the date he purchased the binos then his story is obviously not valid. Of course, if they were made before that doesnt say he is innocent either. Seems like a hard story to believe. The odds are just too high that all that took place.


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## Hoyt301

From the ASA rules under Competition Committee:

In addition to reviewing infractions and ruling on grievances submitted by shooters, the committee will establish penalties that are not delineated in the ASA Rules, as well as sanctions for conduct violations and repeat rules violators.


Sounds like they can do what is right.


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## Kstigall

:heh: I think the ASA should REQUIRE him to participate in ALL the ASA shoots for the remainder of the year................ He must stay the nights alone in a tent on the grounds.


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## markb317

reylamb said:


> Unless something changed very recently, the ASA no longer pays the following years' entry fees for SOY winners.....


No but if he used them at the IBO Southern Triple Crowns it counts for SOY and they pay the following year.


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## McCann

The email Dee sent out the other day basiclly said that the ASA can only punish what they can prove. That is not a direct quote but it is essentially the feeling the email gives. 

My question is this...... how many Semi Pros or their family that follows takes pictures? If a pic existed that shows him with the binos at Monroe, Florida or the Southern Triple Crown then there might be evidence that is actionable by the IBO and the ASA.

just sayin..... semi's if you have some pics you might look in the background and see what is there.

Marc


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## J Whittington

I personally have more faith in Obama than I do Dee. There are plenty of eyewitnesses that saw him use these binos at other events. I being one of the on sat in Monroe. I spoke to Mike T of Asa yesterday via phone informed him of this as well.


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## FishAlaska

Guys....whatever is going to happen has probably already happened. The ASA more than likely is not going to publish what action they took. It is between the ASA and the shooter. If you are waiting for an announcement, it may never come. 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## J Whittington

Your probably correct.


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## carlosii

FishAlaska said:


> Guys....whatever is going to happen has probably already happened. The ASA more than likely is not going to publish what action they took. It is between the ASA and the shooter. If you are waiting for an announcement, it may never come.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


if some information is known by one person, its a secret. if it is known by two people...well, hopefully you get the idea.


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## ABTABB

From the ASA Forum...

The ASA Competition Committee has completed their review of the range finder controversy from Texas. It is their conclusion that the individual involved will have all scores from his 2012 season vacated, and in addition he will be suspended from future ASA Pro/Am and Federation competition for the foreseeable future.

The results for LA and FL will be reposted based on this decision, and the ASA will amend the payouts based on these new results. The SOY standings will also reflect this correction. 

We want to thank the committee for their diligence in reaching this decision in this very unfortunate situation.


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## 3rdplace

Justice served. Win!


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## wsbark01

ABTABB said:


> From the ASA Forum...
> 
> The ASA Competition Committee has completed their review of the range finder controversy from Texas. It is their conclusion that the individual involved will have all scores from his 2012 season vacated, and in addition he will be suspended from future ASA Pro/Am and Federation competition for the foreseeable future.
> 
> The results for LA and FL will be reposted based on this decision, and the ASA will amend the payouts based on these new results. The SOY standings will also reflect this correction.
> 
> We want to thank the committee for their diligence in reaching this decision in this very unfortunate situation.


Glad to see that it was not just a slap on the wrist! Also, glad to see that other archers will get what they deserve and worked hard to achieve!


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## field14

Justice served. Plaudits to the ASA and the CC committee.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## carlosii

Sad to see someone with his talent and personality throw it all away for a few dollars. Kudos to the ASA officials and the Competition Committee for making a wise decision. They have vindicated the faith that members have in their willingness to do the right thing.


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## Green River

wsbark01 said:


> Your local club is not the Simi Pro range at an ASA Pro/Am. Wow that is crazy! Does anyone know what ASA does to the ones who cheat?


I heard he was just taking a peak after the shot, it's OK to do that right?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Green unknown classes or days if you shoot half and half, you should not even have a rangefinder with you. It says no rangefinders permitted...too much temptation and targets are to close.


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## carlosii

Green River said:


> I heard he was just taking a peak after the shot, it's OK to do that right?


not from the stake.


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## watermedic23

I think that he was kidding guys.


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## deer_slayer1982

Maybe should just do away with binoculars.


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## SET THE HOOK

deer_slayer1982 said:


> Maybe should just do away with binoculars.


Yeah right! Not!!! stick wth your little local shoots.


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## SonnyThomas

deer_slayer1982 said:


> Maybe should just do away with binoculars.


Subject has been dead since April 4th of this year and you now have to put your two cents in?


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## FishAlaska

SonnyThomas said:


> Subject has been dead since April 4th of this year and you now have to put your two cents in?


Maybe he/she doesnt read AT everyday. Maybe he/she just saw the thread. Who knows? Thats April 4 of LAST year too BTW.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Garceau

The issue with getting rid of binocs imho would be giving a greater advantage to those that have their own ranges.

If ya get rid of binocs you'd have to put an orange dot on 12 like redding.....then the game just changed to something else

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## deer_slayer1982

Doesn't it give people an advantage having $2000 binoculars vs a $50 pair. My razor HDs do compared to my monarchs.


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## FishAlaska

deer_slayer1982 said:


> Doesn't it give people an advantage having $2000 binoculars vs a $50 pair. My razor HDs do compared to my monarchs.


Yes, like any sport. If you can afford it you get the advantage. Thats the way games are played. Everything in life is that way.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Hoosier bowman

FishAlaska said:


> Yes, like any sport. If you can afford it you get the advantage. Thats the way games are played. Everything in life is that way.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


Yup. Life ain't fair!


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## Garceau

deer_slayer1982 said:


> Doesn't it give people an advantage having $2000 binoculars vs a $50 pair. My razor HDs do compared to my monarchs.


In my opinion not near the advantage as having your own range.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Garceau said:


> In my opinion not near the advantage as having your own range.
> 
> Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


Having access to a range is a far greater advantage then high dollar binos...


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## deer_slayer1982

No its not its just for fun its a game.


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## wolfman_73

If it were only a game at that level, then there would be no prizes. It's a competition when money or prizes is on the line and sadly some people will do anything to win. 

I have total respect for the guys that put in the effort to get to the top. And in every sport, the team that can buy the best equipment has an advantage. Just makes those of us without the means to buy a whole range or $2k binocs work harder to get there. I'm ok with that


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## salmon killer

Wow we are still beating Michael VIncent up that is so last year!LOL


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## Babyk

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Having access to a range is a far greater advantage then high dollar binos...


Why don't you say what you really want to say here......


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Babyk said:


> Why don't you say what you really want to say here......


What do you mean by that comment?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

wolfman_73 said:


> If it were only a game at that level, then there would be no prizes. It's a competition when money or prizes is on the line and sadly some people will do anything to win.
> 
> I have total respect for the guys that put in the effort to get to the top. And in every sport, the team that can buy the best equipment has an advantage. Just makes those of us without the means to buy a whole range or $2k binocs work harder to get there. I'm ok with that


The sad thing in this day people will cheat for just the win, no prizes needed. I've seen it done in local hunting contests.


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## Kstigall

deer_slayer1982 said:


> Doesn't it give people an advantage having $2000 binoculars vs a $50 pair. My razor HDs do compared to my monarchs.


Monarchs are definitely plenty good for 3D even at a higher level. I'm convinced that $2000 binos offer nothing over good $275 binos when it comes to scoring for the vast majority of decent 3D archers. The binos merely help you find where to aim. If you are not familiar with the targets you aren't going to be at the top of any class at any competitive tournament regardless of the cost of your binos. Binos are NOT mounted on the bow.



deer_slayer1982 said:


> No its not its just for fun its a game.


For the most part you are absolutely right. However, games are competition and there is NOTHING wrong with striving to be the best that you can be. It is right to punishment thieves...... The person that steals entry fees by cheating is a thief!



WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> The sad thing in this day people will cheat for just the win, no prizes needed. I've seen it done in local hunting contests.


People will definitely cheat merely for the status of being the best as they think it makes them more "powerful". There are a LOT of people that do feed the "winners" ego even if it's just a very trivial competition.


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## carlosii

i'd kinda forgot about this. maybe we should start an "Archery Hall of Shame" with Vincent as the first inductee...maybe we could include the people who had that magazine that went belly up owing lots of people money/issues.

any other nominees?


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## reylamb

carlosii said:


> i'd kinda forgot about this. maybe we should start an "Archery Hall of Shame" with Vincent as the first inductee...maybe we could include the people who had that magazine that went belly up owing lots of people money/issues.
> 
> any other nominees?


Depends on how deep and far we want to go.....

Failing the pee test for FITA shoots?
Clicking when clicking ain't allowed?
Ranging targets before a shootdown?
How about all of the folks that have been caught speeding?

This could be a long list!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kstigall

reylamb said:


> Depends on how deep and far we want to go.....
> 
> Failing the pee test for FITA shoots?
> Clicking when clicking ain't allowed?
> Ranging targets before a shootdown?
> How about all of the folks that have been caught speeding?
> 
> This could be a long list!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Let us not forget "JR 6 Shots"....... BHFS 2012 Indoor Nationals


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## Babyk

Tell me more about JR 6 shot


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## reylamb

Kstigall said:


> Let us not forget "JR 6 Shots"....... BHFS 2012 Indoor Nationals


I forgot about that one.......


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## field14

reylamb said:


> I forgot about that one.......


Musn't be much wrong with it, as far as I remember, the score is still posted on the Final Results....Obviously not a "legal" score, but one cheated for, and yet the score is still there. Ridiculous that it stays.

field14 (tom D.)


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## Kstigall

Babyk said:


> Tell me more about JR 6 shot


On the first day a fellow shot an arrow into the wrong target face. He then proceeded to shoot 5 arrows at his target. Instead of recording a score of 19 with 4 X's a score of 25 with 5 X's was recorded. Due to cheating his score qualified him for the championship line the next day and had him in contention for the National Championship. A couple of hours after score cards were turned in one of the scorers had a change of heart and reported the incident....... At the time NFAA leadership were all too happy to say they could not do anything because the rules say a protest must be filed within one hour from the time the "line" finished shooting. The one hour window for filing a "protest" had passed!!!!!!! 

On Sunday this individual was approached by officials and other individuals. He LIED to the official as did his side kick when they said he did not shoot six arrows! As we shot the championship line that day people stood behind us and talked about the cheating and lying. They were talking about how it was posted on AT and was being hardily discussed. Anyway, eventually "Mr. 6 Shots" again shot the wrong target....... Of course he and his side kick said he did it on purpose so he would be out of contention for winning the National Championship. I call BS on this. He either screwed up and shot the wrong target or had heard that some of us were going to protest his total score immediately upon the conclusion of that days game. The cheats knew their names were being thrown around on AT so the reality of what they were doing was being exposed to the entire archery community........... There was no way they were keeping their actions quiet and in Louisville. There were excuse made and some smoke screens were thrown up but too many actual witnesses came forth. One of my regrets is that I did not pay the $25 and file a protest forcing the NFAA leadership to make a comment.

He could also be DQ'd for intentionally shooting the wrong target!

As it stands the NFAA leadership NEVER _publicly_ did anything to punish the two archers that lied directly to the NFAA official on Sunday. 

It is one thing to make a single mistake..... It is a whole different thing that those *two* guys did!

Unfortunately, because the NFAA leadership chose to stick their collective heads in the sand this incident continues to be an example of the NFAA's existence..........weak and neutered. Below I have copied the rules in the NFAA By-Laws that clearly show that both individuals could have and should have been disqualified. In fact according to Article IV, Section D, sub-paragraph 1.7, it says the Tournament Chairman "shall'" DQ the competitors not following rules or improper conduct. The above definitely did not follow tournament rules and when they lied their conduct was improper.


From the NFAA By-Laws:

ARTICLE IV
Tournaments
*A.* National Tournaments

9. A competitor not following the established tournament rules, improper conduct or creating
a safety hazard may be disqualified immediately.

*D.* Tournament Officials:
1. Tournament Chairman:
At all NFAA sanctioned tournaments a Tournament Chairman shall be appointed and it
shall be his duty to:

1.7 Disqualify any competitor not following the established tournament rules,
improper conduct or using equipment not deemed legal for NFAA competition.


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## ccwilder3

There was also the Pro who dropped down to BHFS in Vegas and adjusted his sight during the round.


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## Kstigall

ccwilder3 said:


> There was also the Pro who dropped down to BHFS in Vegas and adjusted his sight during the round.


aka "Take 5"


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## eda

cheater


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## TheWhiteRabbit5

"If you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin"


Mathews MR7, HHA, TT Smackdown Pro, KTech Multi Rod


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## J Whittington

Really??????? Are you dumb ? Or just trying to start a fire?


TheWhiteRabbit5 said:


> "If you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin"
> 
> 
> 
> Mathews MR7, HHA, TT Smackdown Pro, KTech Multi Rod


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## FishAlaska

J Whittington said:


> Really??????? Are you dumb ? Or just trying to start a fire?[/QUOTE
> 
> It is what it is. Keep beating them and they will quit.
> Good shooters can beat a cheater 9/10 times. Most can't even cheat well.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## shooter74

bmeese21 said:


> i heard after he was DQ he was hanging around the vendors like nothing happend. If this was me I would of pulled my poor son off the course and took the fastest jet plane back to Missouri, never to show my face again at an archery event.


where at in missouri is this guy from anybody know


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## shooter74

Ttt


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## f166

I cheated once my rest broke at a national shoot the only parts I had was a bisket put it on my bow and won so now im a cheater


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## shootist

shooter74 said:


> where at in missouri is this guy from anybody know


Michael Vincent is from Mississippi. I think the person who wrote that post is probably from Missouri and is just saying if it were him, we would go straight back to his home (in Missouri).


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## J Whittington

Yep, the professional yard sale shopping expert is from Mississippi


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

J Whittington said:


> Yep, the professional yard sale shopping expert is from Mississippi


Bahahahahaha... I still can't find that deal.


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## HOYTINIT

ban his assss


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

HOYTINIT said:


> ban his assss


He is for at least 2 years, then has to be accepted back in.


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## FishAlaska

It will be interesting to see if any of last years alleged perps show up at any events this year. I did not see any at Lancaster but wasnt looking either...how about the first ASA? Vegas coming this week.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## tagmaster10

Holy Crap!!! Are we still talking about this loser?! Let it die like his name in the sport did.......


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## shooter74

tagmaster10 said:


> Holy Crap!!! Are we still talking about this loser?! Let it die like his name in the sport did.......



people on here always have to drag some stuff on.... I wonder what he thinks of him self ..... feel sorry for his boy .


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## 50 plus

I just hope Obama and Biden don't hear about this!


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## BigBore56

Pretty much doomed him for any more archery competitions! You always have cheaters in every sport, but eventually they get exposed. He might want to switch to competive golf next.


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## Destroyer

He got caught, punished and everyone should move on.

Btw, I'm shooting barebow recurve atm so if you shoot compounds, sights, releases, etc, y'all seem like cheaters to me lol! :tongue:


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## Babyk

I know what he did was wrong but he is paying the price for it trust me......Dont judge a man by one mistake, I dont know him personally but I know he is a family man and I am sure it kills him to not be allowed to shoot ASA, HE did wrong let him serve his time and just use this as a reminder that we all need to follow the rules of the game and keep honest with ourselves at all time.


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## Rat Trapper

threetoe said:


> It's done all the time at my club.


 That is why at my club we went to marked yardage shoots several years ago. attendance is up and the playing field is level. www.colconservationclub.com


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## 12sonly

Destroyer said:


> He got caught, punished and everyone should move on.
> 
> Btw, I'm shooting barebow recurve atm so if you shoot compounds, sights, releases, etc, y'all seem like cheaters to me lol! :tongue:


Agree,let it go


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## Kstigall

It is time to let this go. He has been convicted and punished. 
In the grand scheme of things what he did and the harm he caused is trivial.....  

Don't waste your breath accusing me of being soft on crime. It is very important and should be noted that the ASA and the IBO acted swiftly, accurately and justly. Anyone that has been around another much older archery org knows this is NOT a given under any circumstance.


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## STELLIX

He shoot in the Stae Games this past weekend in Ms. He shot good too, it was known yardage. I wonder if he will shoot known 50 if he ever comes back to the ASA?


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## ARCHERCHRIS3

WHY cheat? sure you win a lot of stuff but in the long run your just cheating yourself.


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## FishAlaska

ARCHERCHRIS3 said:


> WHY cheat? sure you win a lot of stuff but in the long run your just cheating yourself.


True...but the funny part is he was using a rangefinder and therefore knew the yardage and still did not win every tourney or shoot perfect scores....so he was really cheating himself!

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## SonnyThomas

Someone close this dang thing. This BS big time and it's about time some damned kids in here grew up!


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## FishAlaska

SonnyThomas said:


> Someone close this dang thing. This BS big time and it's about time some damned kids in here grew up!


Reason? We still hear about OJ and Manson, their violations were decades ago. In fact both of them were in the news just the other day. If you don't want to hear what people say than don't read it. Do you watch TV programs you don't like, no you turn the channel. So turn the page if you don't want to read this. The thread will not get closed, there are not any violations happening here.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Joseph McCluske

SonnyThomas said:


> Someone close this dang thing. This BS big time and it's about time some damned kids in here grew up!


Agreed, this should be removed the guy got caught, is paying for it so it's time to move on. A moderator should have removed this long ago.


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## Dan-0

It's old news, but why should the event be stricken from the record?


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## FishAlaska

Dan-0 said:


> It's old news, but why should the event be stricken from the record?


I agree...it doesnt affect them unless they are doing the same thing, supporting the offender, or they are the offender posing. If they don't like it, don't read it. It will not get removed, nothing is being violated. There are much older posts still here.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Daniel Boone

Thread should not be removed and should be left as prime example of cheating and what happens.
DB


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## hunteraaron

I am glad they didn't close this thread.They should leave thread open as a reminder to everyone what happens to cheaters in the ASA.
I would love to have the opertunity to shoot ASA,but they are to far away.I will be trying the Regions tournament this weekend in Anderson,Indiana.I have never finished inside the top ten at any big shoot,but I have always walked off the course with my integrity in tack.


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## FishAlaska

hunteraaron said:


> I am glad they didn't close this thread.They should leave thread open as a reminder to everyone what happens to cheaters in the ASA.
> I would love to have the opertunity to shoot ASA,but they are to far away.I will be trying the Regions tournament this weekend in Anderson,Indiana.I have never finished inside the top ten at any big shoot,but I have always walked off the course with my integrity in tack.


Awesome!

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Supermag1

hunteraaron said:


> I am glad they didn't close this thread.They should leave thread open as a reminder to everyone what happens to cheaters in the ASA.
> I would love to have the opertunity to shoot ASA,but they are to far away.I will be trying the Regions tournament this weekend in Anderson,Indiana.I have never finished inside the top ten at any big shoot,but I have always walked off the course with my integrity in tack.


This isn't an ASA vs IBO thing, he cheated at both and was banned from both. If you want to get into who handled it better, go back and look at the timeline of evens that happened.


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## CMA121885

I think its time to let it go guys. Yea he made a mistake and it cost him, The guy also has a son thats a great shooter from what I hear. His mistake effects the kid probably worse than it did his self. No one is perfect on or off the range. So people strive to get the attention the big name shooters get. He got his attention but not in the way he wanted. 

While I understand that everyone that shot ASA feels cheated by this guy. Cheating happens on the courses. DB has a long drawn out thread on how to stop it, and J whittington has a thread about having a offical score arrows. Truth is you will never stop cheating, it going to happen one way or another. 

I know alot of people that can thing back on some bone headed thing they done when they were younger that they arent proud of. I can think of a few things Iv done that were sure some stupid moves. And im sure alot of you guys can say the same, While there will be some keyboard angels that argue they have been perfect all their lives.

Bottom line is the guy is paying the price for the decision he made, Hes laying in the bed he made and Im pretty sure he dont need any crap smeared on him as he has had enough to leave a stinch for awhile.


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## Destroyer

:lock1:


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## tmorelli

In related news........

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/2...eating-in-fishing-tournament/?test=latestnews


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## Kstigall

tmorelli said:


> In related news........
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/2...eating-in-fishing-tournament/?test=latestnews


The man was 72 years old!! I sure hope at his age he is simply a thief and did not do it for the "fame".


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## tmorelli

Kstigall said:


> The man was 72 years old!! I sure hope at his age he is simply a thief and did not do it for the "fame".


It just made me wonder how far MV's case could've been taken..... or how far future cheaters could be....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Babyk

Man MV got off easy compaired to this old fart.......Like I said early what MV did was totally wrong and hes paying the price no doubt but let the man do his time and use it as a tool to teach others that this is a sport of ingerity and stuff like this is taken very serious!!!


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## mxtuner1

I am not going to tell each of you what to do, Just what works for me. I choose to let the rules administrators choose his punishment (already done) and then forgive him and worry only about how I am as a competitor. Have I mentioned yardage to another that I shot? Have I written down my previous shot on a target? Have I mentioned I shot low/high with my yardage guess? But have I also been guilty of seeing rules infractions and let them slide account "not to create waves?" For me (and the world does not evolve around me) I go to have fun and am trying to be fair to all, forgiving to all (as we know is right), and to try to hit those high scoring areas that I luck into occasionally. MV has a family and its time to let him serve his punishment and to for me to forgive. The law has been laid down and if you want a position on rules enforcement I'm sure you can apply. Everyday I try to be a better competitor and compete against my scores only, am I improving? It don't matter but I make sure that I forgive others and just have a great time in the sport I love. You choose your own route, but be sure you are true to you and your competitors when done.


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## salmon killer

Wow we still beating up MV lol. Time to move on!


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## Babyk

He will be back in action next year


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