# Fingers and Target Panic



## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

I am on what I hope is the back side of a multi year struggle with TP. My specific problem came primarily with the problem that when the sight picture developed (bare bow shooter) I immediately wanted to let go. I suppose that would be the same as having the urge to let go the moment the pin hit the center of the spot. If I did not release, I would have a horrible flinch.

Here is my question. At this point, I can now go through my shot process, obtain the target sight picture, and maintain it for a couple of seconds, maybe three, and then execute well. That is now happening regularly at varying distances. HOWEVER, if I tell myself I am going to hold longer, say to the count of 10, I will inevitably experience a flinch. Once I gain the sight picture I have a couple or three seconds to settle in, and the arrow will be gone. I can fight it, but if I do, I will likely flinch.

I know the prevailing thought is that the loose should be subconscious. So how do you reconcile the two? Should I just practice where I am accepting it as a subconscious release, or should I work on holding longer? How do you hold longer, and not work against a subconscious loose? 

I still feel like I am losing control of the shot at the point of loose. Something other than me is making the decision to let go, sort of. I would appreciate the thoughts of some of you guys on this please.

Cato


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

Cato,

Good post and great, to the point question.

My 2-cents. I've done the exact same thing. Aim longer to build a much more relaxed "Loose". This is the procedure I've used to build that longer aim. Before I draw my bow I tell myslef that I "Will NOT" let this arrow go. I'm just going to aim it for a very, very long time then let it down. The next time I draw my bow I allow myself to loose the arrow but only after it's been aimed longer then I normally do. This works great but if I don't keep up the strong mental command of "HOW" I allow myself to loose the arrow after an extended aim, I fall back into old habbits.

Keep working on being strong. You'll find that strong archer very soon.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Thanks for the encouragement Boyd. For those who have not been there, this TP thing is one of the most maddening things you can go through. You lose control; you know the shot sequence and have the form but the brain just overrides all your rational thoughts and you do things you do not intend to do.

I do appreciate the feedback. I probably need to be better about making the process of drawing and then not shooting more of my practice sessions.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I've been fighting the same thing with the snap shooting (also a BB shooter). I've found the thing that helps best is to draw, anchor and aim for as long as I can then let down and repeat this several times. I've read that you should do this for many days before even attempting shooting but I guess I'm impatient so I do it every session a few times thrown in with my regular shooting.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

Cato,

You are miles ahead already because your building a way past this. I've seen many people walk away from this sport with TP saying I'll try it again later. Only to never come back. The only way to beat it is to work thru it (I know). Find something that makes you stronger in just one aspect of your shooting then build on that until it's become automatic, controlable.


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## Finger_Flinger (Mar 25, 2009)

I, too have been having this problem. I begin to aim, always bring the pins down from the top, but, can't quite get the correct pin on the dot before wanting to release. I can hold the pin below the correct pin on the target all day. I'm still working through it. Definitely a pain & makes it hard to shoot @ all.

When shooting my recurves barebow, I found I had no problem just staring & correcting the aim.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

you sound very much like me . in my case , as soon as the target enters the scope window the arrow is gone regardless of what i want . seems like it is also somewhat of a timing thing because if i'm having trouble finding target the arrow is still shot after maybe 4 seconds . not a draw weight problem ,i shoot very light draw weight ......good luck


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

I am shooting light draw weight as well, so that is not the issue.

The thing that hepled me the very most, was the most hassle; a back tension release aide. I bought a Mathews Genesis Pro, put a Vibracheck Safedraw on it (will let you dry fire the bow) and that enables me to shoot it in the house. The back tension release forces you to float the pin without releasing. That was hugely helpful in the healing process. But obviously, when I went back to fingers, there is nothing keeping you from letting go early. 

Thanks for all the feed back. Still interested in any more thoughts from others.


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

Cato, when shooting and dealing with TP is it only with shooting spots or just anything you want to shoot at?
I don't think I have TP with target shooting but deff have it with hunting (buck fever) I want to shoot that buck/Bull lots of meat and possibly horns to boot, but with spots, its a spot can't eat it, score is good but just a number. yeah I want a high score but just not as important as shooting at game. this prob don't help but just another outlook on it.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Codster,

For me it was both. Targets not quiet as bad as live animals. I was always able to hunt through it, but not pleasant at times. Made a few "less than perfect" shots that made me crazy. 

I know this sounds goofy to people that have not been there, but another drill for me is to shoot a deer 3D over, and over, and over. I started at 15 yds; yes 15 yds. When I got "on" the target, I would literally go into to a state where the tension in my bow arm went nuts and I just could not hold the string. 

Now it is much, much better. Below is a 3 shot group bare bow (first three shots of the day at that distance) from 36 steps. Now I wish I could tell you I can do that every time..............but who wants to be a liar..ukey:


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## arrowshooters (Jun 5, 2006)

Picked this TP thing up trying to learn to shoot a release. Hung all that up except for that dag nab TP. After 40+ years of shooting I went from being able to hit a Nat's a** anywhere in front of me to having to worry about even being able to hit my fence at 10 yards. 

Telling yourself to hold longer is a good part of it, but two things have really helped me to preserver:

The 1st one helped to stop me from releasing the arrow before I even reached my cheek: I don't even look through my peep until I have hit my anchor point. I guess the best way to describe it is I keep my focus on the target with my left eye and ignore the "blur" coming up in front of my right eye. Once I reach my anchor I bring the peep and pins into focus. It sounds like it takes forever, but is really only a split second.

The 2nd one I got from my brother-in-law who noticed that I wasn't breathing: I guess part of my release madness involved holding my breath. Now I make sure I take a breath when I hit the anchor/focus part, then I take another one as I focus in on my spot. After the second breath I found that I am completely relaxed and not in such a hurry to let go of the string.

After this it's all form and follow through. (oh, now I also have to think about not wanting to try to see where the arrow is going to hit before it even gets there, LOL)

Finally after over a year and a half I can slap'm together again at 40 yards. It's just not automatic like it used to be.

So with all that being said, it is just a matter of picking apart your shot sequence and avoid getting really PO'd. You'll get it, I have faith.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Great tip on the breathing thing. I never thought of that, or tried it, but you can bet I will. Thanks.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

me too !!!!!!!!!


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Subconscious is the key here. Its taken me nearly two year to figure out that I am a Subconscious Aimer and a Conscious release. I get in trouble if I focus only on aiming, because I try to time the shot (TP). Now I just consciously put the pin in the spot or as near as possilbe and let the fingers relax to the shot, No timing involved. Take as little as 4 or 5 sec or 10 sec. All the time I keep looking at the spot and want to see the nock go into that spot. Dan


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## Darksider (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi I'm Tim & I have TP!:embarres:
Used to shoot a gnat's A** too. about 5 or so robinhoods.
What has helped me is Blind bale shooting(working on the release) & going up to 5/10yards & step back 5 yrds when I can put them all in the 9-10 ring.
I still sometime throw the last arrow in a group. :BangHead:
Still trying to muddle through it.

Oh, FWIW,
Taking in a breathe can help you raise your bow arm.


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

*draw*

I draw and let down, many many times in my practice sessions first on a bare bale then on a target. Forces me not to let go and makes the brain know that just cause its on the target doesnt mean I will shoot. Sort of have to trick your subconsence. Tough to beat but the rewards are great.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Many times it is target aquisiton as much as anything else. We program our conscious to try to take over all aspects of the shot, which cant be done.

You must train your subconscious that no matter which way you come into the target, from the top-bottom-side, it doenst matter. If you constantly come in from the top and as soon as you get close you get the "urge", start comeimg in from the sides and the bottom. you must retrain your subconscious that no matter where the "pin" comes in from - you still have to aim thru the shot.

Blind bale, blank bale, target auisitioning, shooting at short distances will cure TP. It takes 2 days to pick up a bad habit and 21 days to beat it.

How do I know. I suffered from TP for 7-8 years. I quit shooting and coached my wife to 6 state titles, 2 sectionals, and 1 national championship before I got over my TP. Once I got over my TP I won the Texas State indoor. Not braggin, just saying anyone can beat it. 

Just aim.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

subconsciously said:


> How do I know. I suffered from TP for 7-8 years. I quit shooting and coached my wife to 6 state titles, 2 sectionals, and 1 national championship before I got over my TP. Once I got over my TP I won the Texas State indoor. Not braggin, just saying anyone can beat it.
> 
> Just aim.


Well, at least I am in some good company. Its not braggin when its history.

I will have to say I have wondered if it can ever be completely beaten. This is encouraging. 

I guess another thing that just "hits me" is that it seems that for the most part, the people that struggle with this are primarily people who want to work hard to become as good as they can be. 

Good stuff. Thanks for the help.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

mitchell said:


> Well, at least I am in some good company. Its not braggin when its history.
> 
> I will have to say I have wondered if it can ever be completely beaten. This is encouraging.
> 
> ...


..............Mitchell.....Your last paragraph rings true with Me.....Seems that the harder I try, the worse it gets......I'm usually O.K., at closer ranges, and blank bale, but as soon as I have to shoot farther, or in the case of 3-D, judge the yardage, and then pick a pin, or gap a pin, it all comes back............For me it definitely seems to be a lack of confidence.....I denied that for a long time, but that's basically what it comes down to for Me.....I do think that it is very odd that I have had other Hobbies/Obsessions that I was just plain better at, or naturally better at, but Archery seems to be something that I have to work very hard at, just to be average.....L.O.L.......Maybe that's part of the reason that it is such an importance to Me??...Dont know, but maybe one day I'll start over, and re-learn everything, and beat this, or at least get it under control, to a satisfactory level.....Take care.............Jim


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Don't quit trying Jim. If you do, you might leave me by myself!


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

I think TP isn't such a bad thing. You wouldn't have it if you were executing the shot with all the elements of the shot in there right place. I remember what a helpless feeling it was when I went from shooting 295- 298 indoor BHFSL scores to 250's or less with arrows off the bale at times. I accomplished this feat in one session and it seemed permanent as that was how I shot from that point on until I learned to use a clicker. I did a lot of bare bale shooting too and that really helped. I learned that I needed to make good form my priority rather than hitting the bull, that would take care of itself. The more I made form my focus the more solid I became and it was fun again. I made a game of it to visualize the shot as a complete program which must run it's course on every shot. Once I started the motor to run the program it MUST end with my index finger of my draw hand lightly touching the top of my shoulder. That was my sole conscious thought throughout the well practiced form of the shot, even aiming was secondary as I used a drop ring which I simply stared through at the bull I was using as an anchor. I am, like DDshooter, a subconscious aimer, and think it's interesting what aiming really is. Aiming is simply looking at where you want to hit and trusting that your form will hold your bow in the right place upon the explosion of the shot. That microsecond of time cannot possibly be monitored by you consciously, it has to be done by the subconscious which is well equipped to do that. Trust is the key, when you lose that trust you panic. The bullseye doesn't move so look at it and let the bow site picture move as it will, as it must, just execute,,,


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

fingers said:


> I think TP isn't such a bad thing. You wouldn't have it if you were executing the shot with all the elements of the shot in there right place. I remember what a helpless feeling it was when I went from shooting 295- 298 indoor BHFSL scores to 250's or less with arrows off the bale at times. I accomplished this feat in one session and it seemed permanent as that was how I shot from that point on until I learned to use a clicker. I did a lot of bare bale shooting too and that really helped. I learned that I needed to make good form my priority rather than hitting the bull, that would take care of itself. The more I made form my focus the more solid I became and it was fun again. I made a game of it to visualize the shot as a complete program which must run it's course on every shot. Once I started the motor to run the program it MUST end with my index finger of my draw hand lightly touching the top of my shoulder. That was my sole conscious thought throughout the well practiced form of the shot, even aiming was secondary as I used a drop ring which I simply stared through at the bull I was using as an anchor. I am, like DDshooter, a subconscious aimer, and think it's interesting what aiming really is. Aiming is simply looking at where you want to hit and trusting that your form will hold your bow in the right place upon the explosion of the shot. That microsecond of time cannot possibly be monitored by you consciously, it has to be done by the subconscious which is well equipped to do that. Trust is the key, when you lose that trust you panic. The bullseye doesn't move so look at it and let the bow site picture move as it will, as it must, just execute,,,


.........Fingers, that was a great post, and very good info.....Here's my deal, though.....I can shoot Spots with Fingers and scratch down a decent score, not great, but respectable.....But, I am a 3-D shooter, and when shooting 3-D, there is ALOT going on.....Shooting conditions, terrain, unknown yardage,..... alot of the time, not even really sure where the center of the 10 ring, (The 11 ring) is at on the foam animal, , target angles, etc..etc.......Gapping a pin, or shooting off the target with the sight pin,( to make the arrow hit the target where the pin ISNT at),,....... these kinds of things add up quickly.....Y'Know??.....Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Well said Fingers. DD



fingers said:


> I think TP isn't such a bad thing. You wouldn't have it if you were executing the shot with all the elements of the shot in there right place. I remember what a helpless feeling it was when I went from shooting 295- 298 indoor BHFSL scores to 250's or less with arrows off the bale at times. I accomplished this feat in one session and it seemed permanent as that was how I shot from that point on until I learned to use a clicker. I did a lot of bare bale shooting too and that really helped. I learned that I needed to make good form my priority rather than hitting the bull, that would take care of itself. The more I made form my focus the more solid I became and it was fun again. I made a game of it to visualize the shot as a complete program which must run it's course on every shot. Once I started the motor to run the program it MUST end with my index finger of my draw hand lightly touching the top of my shoulder. That was my sole conscious thought throughout the well practiced form of the shot, even aiming was secondary as I used a drop ring which I simply stared through at the bull I was using as an anchor. I am, like DDshooter, a subconscious aimer, and think it's interesting what aiming really is. Aiming is simply looking at where you want to hit and trusting that your form will hold your bow in the right place upon the explosion of the shot. That microsecond of time cannot possibly be monitored by you consciously, it has to be done by the subconscious which is well equipped to do that. Trust is the key, when you lose that trust you panic. The bullseye doesn't move so look at it and let the bow site picture move as it will, as it must, just execute,,,


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Thanks DD. Harperman, all those things you talk about as concerns are to be worked out and accepted BEFORE beginning the shot. If you are using parts of the bow as a range finder then do that but once the shot to be made has been identified and accepted, then the shot sequence is the same. Misses come from less than 100 percent acceptance of the shot you are making. What we are talking about is discipline and putting tasks in their proper place. No matter what distance or conditions or target, that must be figured out before starting the shot sequence and the shot sequence is identical to any other shot. Right now, with TP looming ever present on every shot, how does anything you are doing bear a resemblance to what I'm talking about? I'm not trying to be mean but instead trying to impress on you how your focus needs to be redirected and some work has to be done to put it back together with a solid foundation. And form, excellent form, is the foundation. With that one pure motivation you will find that the chips fall into place. Close bare butt, eyes closed practice is a good place to start. It will let you feel every component of the shot, let you find that shot. You already know how to aim, you can't aim better than you aim. That is not the problem or concern. That is not what broke down. Perfect sweet flowing form is a worthwhile skill to focus on. The better you get at it the more confident you will become. Then if you miss, well hey, you looked good while doing it,,,


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Fingers..........Thanks for the post......I dont take Your posts to be mean, I understand what Your saying, and would much rather have someone shoot me straight, than just hint around at giving out good advice.....I fully understand what Your saying in the post to Me, and the advice of working everything out is sound, solid advice....I gave the example of 3-D, because for Me, all the other variables of shooting 3-D seem to affect me ALOT more than when just shooting Spots, or shooting groups from a known distance, on level ground, with solid footing.....Lack of commitment to a shot will almost always cause a miss, and any doubt in my mind of the shot distance, Pin gap, Target angle, or where the 10 ring is on the critter leads to this lack of commitment to the shot, for ME, anyway....The 3-D season is winding down, I've shot the worst this year than I ever have, and the 3rd Leg of the National Triple Crown is out for me this year, due to Work/Financial commitments, Sooooooooo......I reckon that it's a good time to tear down, and re-build my Mind, and my Shooting.......Thanks again for the post, Fingers!.............Take care!................Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

That was me trying to focus on everything at once, so I panic as soon as I saw the pin in the sight. Now I focus on one thing at a time, then move on down the list. But, it always, only comes down to the last thing, for me that is: Aiming or Execution. No bale shooting fix that. You can't do both! You have to figure out which one you can do in you subconscious, then practice thot over and over. Now, I, Look at the spot and feel the shot that I have practiced, thinking only of form and releasing (As Fingers said). If you forget to Aim, bad shot, If you forget to excute, bad Shot. No matter if it's 9 feet or 90 yards. It should alway feel the same. DD


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

My 2 cents - If I'm starting to have TP problems (again), I revert to going through individual steps of a shot sequence that includes coming to full anchor, shifting to my back muscles, aiming, thinking about my follow-through, which for me is my index finger on the back/side of my neck, the unconscioues loose, rememer I'm thinking about follow through and aiming - not letting go, and then contemplating the shot from the standpoint of form and technique. Doing the individual steps separates tasks and seems to make them easier as a whole. Thinking about the follow through takes my mind off the release. If I don't think about a follow through, there's nothing else to consider but the release which brings me back to TP - aaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

That is an excellent point AKRuss! Let the release be dumb and the follow through be the focus, I like that! And that will work.:smile:


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Lots of great advice here, and I personally feel blessed to get this kind of advice for free, I really do appreciate it.....Sounds sappy, or something , but it's the way I feel............That being said, I'll share my personal type of T.P. affliction (again, for those of You that missed it, or dont remember!.........L.O.L..)..........Here's my symptoms of the "Stank".....I can come to full draw, and hold on target, regardless of target distance...I will then "Lock Up" with the sight pin below the target, and either try to raise the bow and release as the pin is moving up into the target, or kinda "Blank Out" my focus, and neither the Target, nor the sight pin are focused, and the shot goes off.....On a blank bale, I can draw back, settle into anchor, and shoot pretty well executed shots.....Even out to 40 yards.....Put a Dot on that bale, and even at 10-15 yards, it's back to 6 O'Clock lock-up, and drive-by releasing....An older fella at the bow shop told me to paint paper plates flat black, and shoot at them at 5 yards, then back up a few steps as I get more control over the shot...His reasoning was that by shooting at a huge Spot, I would gradually Re-Program my subconscious to be able to center the Pin in the Spot, but He did tell me that it would take ALOT of arrows....I've talked to a couple other guys that have the same problem, (of Locking up somewhere on the Target), so this particular symptom of T.P. seems kinda common.....Thanks again for the advice, and encouragement, Fella's!.............Take care..........Jim


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I've heard of another drill that might work for that. You get like 3 paper plates and put them on one side of the target (say right side) and then run your sight so you're shooting way left and not hitting the plates (if you hit one, replace the plate so you don't see where the arrow impacted). Start close, say like 5 yards then shoot 30 arrows a day while aiming at these for a week, then move back to 10 yards and do the same again. Reduce paper plate size and do this again, until you're back to 20 yards and shooting at a small target. Sorry I don't know the whole drill/process. But essentially, you're teaching yourself to aim and execute the shot and not worry about where the arrow hits.


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Harperman, that sounds like Dan Kolb's method of beating it. He also said no more and no less of shooting 45 arrows at a session/distance. I'm sorry I didn't focus in on what you said a bit better, old guy thing,, The idea behind Kolb's method is to make it all bulls eye since the fear or distraction is the bulls eye. Then to gradually decrease the size of the spot and increase the distance so as to desensitize yourself. I forget how long you stay at each distance before you move on but I do know that if you have any hint of trouble you go back to a closer distance and work more from there. I still feel that something good will come of it in the end if you put in the work. If you were to ask the top finger shooters at any big venue if they ever had TP, after they got over being mad at you for even mentioning it's name, they might privately admit to have had it also.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I have the 6 o'clock hold syndrome too. I've always figured it was a hold over (under?) from target pistol shooting where I shot at 6 on purpose but I've been told that's not the case. I know a few shooters that have somewhat given up and sight in for a low hold instead of trying to beat it. I try to begin aiming when I've above the target a little and not let my sights go below but I'm only partially successful with it. My best gambit has been to balance my bow light in the nose so it's easy to bring it up but I shoot better groups when I'm balanced heavy in front. There are many forms of TP and I think I have them all, LOL.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

AKRuss said:


> I have the 6 o'clock hold syndrome too. I've always figured it was a hold over (under?) from target pistol shooting where I shot at 6 on purpose but I've been told that's not the case. I know a few shooters that have somewhat given up and sight in for a low hold instead of trying to beat it. I try to begin aiming when I've above the target a little and not let my sights go below but I'm only partially successful with it. My best gambit has been to balance my bow light in the nose so it's easy to bring it up but I shoot better groups when I'm balanced heavy in front. There are many forms of TP and I think I have them all, LOL.


....AKRuss....We have talked about this before, but I honestly feel that my days of shooting a Pistol at 6 O'Clock hold,, along with a few years of shooting arrow Gap (with the arrow almost always UNDER the target) with a recurve, has kinda-sorta trained my subconscious to see that same sight picture, and I seem to have developed a phobia concerning covering up the target with the sight pin...It's even worse for Me when the target is farther away, and I have to cover up even more of the target with the lower yardage setting pins....As a short lived experiemnt, last summer I used a one pin "Slider" sight....It did seem to help....I also shot some O.K. scores with a really fast bow, and just used one pin, set at about 28 yards...It worked o.k., but isnt the best way.....Take Care.............Jim


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Harperman, have you ever tried a ring sight? Checkit made them with a drop pin in a 1/4 inch ring. The older ones had a removable pin but the newer ones you had to break the pin off. Then all you do is simply look at where you want to hit and let the ring center itself. Of course this means shooting FSL but what's so bad about that? Then you can learn the clicker too, not a bad thing if you learn to execute it right.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

fingers said:


> Harperman, have you ever tried a ring sight? Checkit made them with a drop pin in a 1/4 inch ring. The older ones had a removable pin but the newer ones you had to break the pin off. Then all you do is simply look at where you want to hit and let the ring center itself. Of course this means shooting FSL but what's so bad about that? Then you can learn the clicker too, not a bad thing if you learn to execute it right.


Fingers.....I messed around with an Aperture sight a bit, it seemed to help me some....I'd have to figure out a way to rig up a multiple ring sight, at least with two aperture pins minimum.....I had a Clicker set-up on my Apex, it was pretty jerry-rigged, but worked....I am gonna order a sight plate mounted Clicker from Lancasters, and set up a bow to shoot the Clicker with....Gotta figure out how to get a tad bit softer back wall on one of my Hoyt's....At least a soft enough back wall to pull through with a Clicker, anyway.....Thanks for the reply.......Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Jim, Most of your TP problem is the same as mine and several others. Hold off target until your ready! Yes you have trained yourself to do this. I did the same thing, but mine was hold high. I got so bad that as soon as I saw the pin get close I would shoot. Until I started shooting a True spot scope. That taught me that all I had to do was center the peep/scope on the spot without the distraction of the pin. Didn't work for @**** on 3D's. I always triggered my shot on seeing the pin, hince conscious Aimer. After a year or so of telling myself hold, hold, hold, now shoot and several walks off the 3D's cource/taking zero's. A Pro told me to focus on the spot or should I say look at the spot as you are centering the pin, So started making it something I go thru on my check list. As I practice this it became apparent that the more I check it off the more I relaxed the more the pin line up with the spot, Like automatic. It was just like setting the scope for the yardage. Done, move on! Once, I set it I continued down my list to now all I focus on is my best form and release, the rest seem to take care of its self. I began to figure out that I was a Subconsious Aimer, because I just made aiming part of the check list that I when thru. Draw put the Scope on target, line up peep, move peep inline with scope, come to Anchor and so on. I can't explain it any better. I suppose if your the flip of that then form and release better be on Autopilot. LOL. DD


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Yup DD, open ring for spots, dot or pin for a target that has no spot. Classic subconscious aimer. I never shot 3D much, mostly field rounds. But I shot our State 3D championships 3 years and I won twice out of the 3. Not bragging but I can put a pin anywhere on the animal I want. Put a dot on it and give me a ring or I suck. Plain fact! It's good to identify what and who you are so you can approach your tournaments in a way that fits you.


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## Finger_Flinger (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm considering trying a dead hand release rather than pulling through to see if it helps @ all. If I'm not consciously pulling through, maybe it will help?

ONly time will tell. 

By the way, my TP always gets worse when I see/read the words target panic...


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Finger_Flinger said:


> I'm considering trying a dead hand release rather than pulling through to see if it helps @ all. If I'm not consciously pulling through, maybe it will help?
> 
> ONly time will tell.
> 
> By the way, my TP always gets worse when I see/read the words target panic...


Ok, lets call it: Anxiousness or Brooding fear. 

As far as pulling. Doesn't work for me either. To much tension. I now just let my release hand relax to the release. Try to feel the back of the hand stretch. The big part, for me that is,.. is holding true to my form, not dropping out or pushing up. I try to visualize the shot and watch the arrow hit the spot. Thats as simple as it gets. I think!

I have a question? Can this all be done with your Subconscious. Like when I drive home from work. I remember getting in the truck. Bam, I am home, walking into the house. Don't remember a lick. LOL. DD


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## Finger_Flinger (Mar 25, 2009)

I think it doesn't help that I'm naturally anxious. Yesterday I actually shot very well & I was able to hold the pin on the dot. I just have to put it out of my mind.


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

I've had some great discussions with a fellow who has in depth knowledge in relation to the mental game. He tells me that we basically have video clips or maybe more like programs to carry out fine motor control tasks. It's our subconscious that stores and runs these programs. We can give conscious commands to start the different programs but then we are best to just witness that execution and then have an identifiable conclusion. One thing about the subconscious is it doesn't understand, "don't". And right there lies the truth of target panic. "Don't blow up on this shot!" does not work, but you already know that. If you say "don't" it does. It only recognizes the imagery or program that you asked it to do and run, not, "don't do it".That is why a redirection of your conscious commands has to be learned and why concentrating on good form is an excellent form for that redirection. Everything is positive by doing that. How don't you do "don't? By not going there in the first place of course, but that was how it was when it was easy, before TP. Now you see the trap and it scares the crap out of you. Yet it is as simple a problem as I just said, you said don't and yet it did, loss of control. Some have switched from right to left in order to kick it, some shoot clicker(me), some completely retrain themselves. What ever you do the end result is you ultimately hope to end up telling yourself DO or basically finding positives through the duration of the shot sequence so you have solid footing. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is all about a well practiced positive shot sequence that is broken right down to the basics and does not have a single point where you might throw a "don't" or even "Oh oh", but rather full confidence in each and every step. All calculations are made before hand, the shot is understood and executed in flow. Now back tension is something completely different from all this although a good thing and a good thing to think about if you got it working for you. But "pulling" is but a side effect of correct back tension. That I'll save for another post and thread.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

fingers said:


> I've had some great discussions with a fellow who has in depth knowledge in relation to the mental game. He tells me that we basically have video clips or maybe more like programs to carry out fine motor control tasks. It's our subconscious that stores and runs these programs. We can give conscious commands to start the different programs but then we are best to just witness that execution and then have an identifiable conclusion. One thing about the subconscious is it doesn't understand, "don't". And right there lies the truth of target panic. "Don't blow up on this shot!" does not work, but you already know that. If you say "don't" it does. It only recognizes the imagery or program that you asked it to do and run, not, "don't do it".That is why a redirection of your conscious commands has to be learned and why concentrating on good form is an excellent form for that redirection. Everything is positive by doing that. How don't you do "don't? By not going there in the first place of course, but that was how it was when it was easy, before TP. Now you see the trap and it scares the crap out of you. Yet it is as simple a problem as I just said, you said don't and yet it did, loss of control. Some have switched from right to left in order to kick it, some shoot clicker(me), some completely retrain themselves. What ever you do the end result is you ultimately hope to end up telling yourself DO or basically finding positives through the duration of the shot sequence so you have solid footing. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is all about a well practiced positive shot sequence that is broken right down to the basics and does not have a single point where you might throw a "don't" or even "Oh oh", but rather full confidence in each and every step. All calculations are made before hand, the shot is understood and executed in flow. Now back tension is something completely different from all this although a good thing and a good thing to think about if you got it working for you. But "pulling" is but a side effect of correct back tension. That I'll save for another post and thread.


Every time I check this thread, I do so expecting it to die, and then some further insight is posted. At least the malady is making more sense now, and the path to recovery is more understandable. I have read tons and tons about TP, and yet this thread has introduced several new ideas to me.

Thanks to all of you guys for the meaningful posts.


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

The guy I referred to was not an archer but learned this in golf. It just struck me when he talked about how we "program" our subconscious and what that entailed. How we have "video clips" but even more than that, almost small programs with sight and feel included, to carry out these different stages of execution. And then the statement on how all this is at such a subliminal level that it is our primal brain, the one who executes the fight or flight response, who lets us take breaths without having to think about each one, the part of the brain that does all those things we ask it to do so we don't have to consciously do them ourselves. When he told me that this part of our brain could not differentiate for do and don't, but that it only saw the picture you presented and then tried to recreate that picture in the execution, then it made sense. Anyone who suffers from TP knows the moment when you said,"Oh no!" and it is right there every time you try to shoot an arrow and hit the bull. You said,"Oh no!" because you basically said,"Don't shoot when it's not in the center!" Take out "Don't" and you said, "Shoot when it is not in the center." All the emotion and fear just makes the message that much louder. It's in your consciousness! And now that you understand what it is, now you can do something about it. You decide which avenue that fits you. I think that just knowing your enemy will help.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Thought this thread might be worth cycling through again.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

agreed!!!!!! i still have target panic . even reached the point of shooting without coming to full draw let a lone anchoring . i said 'this is ridiculous' and started shooting at my spyderweb while not aiming at a ''bulls eye'' . it's helped some but if i try to hit a spot i'm still somewhat , no not somewhat, i still have the panic . i've found having cataracts helps a little because i don't see the spot quite as well . i've also removed my 3/64 peep and i'm using just the screw in peep housing which i've found i like because i can center outside of scope in it and it feels more comfortable . in any case i feel better about my shooting which is a new feeling but i know if you hang a 5 spot target in front of me i will 'fall apart' as 5 spots just make me really PANIC . . .peace


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

big cypress said:


> agreed!!!!!! i still have target panic . even reached the point of shooting without coming to full draw let a lone anchoring . i said 'this is ridiculous' and started shooting at my spyderweb while not aiming at a ''bulls eye'' . it's helped some but if i try to hit a spot i'm still somewhat , no not somewhat, i still have the panic . i've found having cataracts helps a little because i don't see the spot quite as well . i've also removed my 3/64 peep and i'm using just the screw in peep housing which i've found i like because i can center outside of scope in it and it feels more comfortable . in any case i feel better about my shooting which is a new feeling but i know if you hang a 5 spot target in front of me i will 'fall apart' as 5 spots just make me really PANIC . . .peace


Big C..yep, a smaller peep will make me a bit panicky....I use a 3/32" for 3D....Sometimes 1/8"...Question for 'Ya....Have You tried a Clicker??...Since Your shooting round "Wheel" eccentrics, which have a softer back wall, a Clicker could work really well for You...I've been shooting a Clicker since last March, or there-abouts, and even though it is thought of as a crutch, I'll take it....L.O.L....Once the bow is set up properly with the Clicker,(draw length, Clicker adjustments, etc..etc..) and You shoot blank bale to establish form, and all that stuff, I truly believe that You will be surprised and amazed at how much Your shooting improves, and how stress free shooting a bow can be...When I'm doing things properly, and concentrating on what I should be , most of the time I dont even hear the clicker go off, on my Compounds, or my recurves...Just a well executed, stress free shot......Give it a try.......Take Care......Jim


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

The Masters of the Bare Bow volume 4 has an interesting segment in it by a guy named Joel Turner. He is a swat team instructor along with a firearms instructor and an archer. He talks about mental training. He started a thread on a couple of sites about it. Jim I am sure you have seen it. I have spoken with him on the phone, and am trying to adopt some of his suggestions.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

tried a clicker about 20 years ago , in fact still have it mounted on a medicine stone sight . i was amazed that shooting through the clicker didn't affect my uhhh , well , what i call my accuracy which would make you folks chuckle . occasionally i'd pull through the clicker but more than occasionally i wouldn't . seeing me shoot you'd never believe that i could walk and chew gum at the same time . i haven't chewed gum in probably 20 years and i've just remembered why i quit , to many bruises on my knees and chin . .peace


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

big cypress said:


> seeing me shoot you'd never believe that i could walk and chew gum at the same time . i haven't chewed gum in probably 20 years and i've just remembered why i quit , to many bruises on my knees and chin . .peace



LOL. I was working on a climbing deer stand yesterday, making some changes. Somehow when I pulled to two pieces apart that were wedged together I banged my shin. Man I must be the most accident prone human on the planet.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

you guys are funny. I started using Joel's method and it has really helped me so far and its only been a couple weeks. Im about 75% over my snap shooting.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

mitchell said:


> The Masters of the Bare Bow volume 4 has an interesting segment in it by a guy named Joel Turner. He is a swat team instructor along with a firearms instructor and an archer. He talks about mental training. He started a thread on a couple of sites about it. Jim I am sure you have seen it. I have spoken with him on the phone, and am trying to adopt some of his suggestions.


Mitchell...No Sir, I havent read the thread....I'd be extremely interested in reading it, though....Can You please post a link??......Thanks!!...Jim


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Jim,

I will link it. In the meantime, here are some things I got from it, that relate to my original question in this thread.

Each archer has to decide if he is going to consciously aim, and let the subconscious control the release. Or, he can turn the aiming over to the subconscious, and control the "timing" of the release.

Two things we both have been told multiple times; your brain cannot consciously focus on but one thing at a time. And, you must have a subconscious release.

However, controlling the "timing of the release", but at some juncture giving the subconscious the "go ahead" to let go, is not the same thing as controlling the release itself (ie consciously letting go of the string). A clicker, for example, helps you control the timing; you don't let go until the click. But the "let go" is subconscious, because the brain has been taught that the click triggers the let go.

So there seem to be two (if not more) general schools of thought, and each have been prosecuted successfully by different archers. One is that you focus on aiming, but somehow teach your brain not to release immediately upon securing the sight picture; the other is that you consciously aim the bow, but then turn the "maintain" of the aim over to the subconscious, at which point you move your conscious thoughts on to the rest of the shot process, that is the pull through and follow through. So in the second case, you allow your subconscious to keep the pin or sight picture; you quit thinking about where the arrow or the pin is (AFTER putting it initially where it needs to be) as you move on to the final stages of the shot process. What you teach yourself to think about at the moment of release is the back end of the process; ie pulling or follow through.

If you re-read this thread, there are a couple of guys who allude to this and I am only now understanding what they were trying to tell me in their responses. Anyone struggling with TP should carefully read this thread, and also read the entire thread by Joel.

My take is that some people (Byron Ferguson, Rick Welch) are so mentally strong, or have such a strong shot process, that they use the first approach well. However, for those of us that struggle with TP, the latter seems to be a good avenue for most.

So Joel teaches the latter approach; turn the aiming over to the subconscious at some point. He also has some practical advice about how to make this happen. One thing I have never heard of was the "tab shear". He devised an attachment to your tab that you pull through sort of like a trigger that gives you something to focus your mind on as you are trying to finalize the shot.

I am really intrigued by Joel, because he teaches snipers and swat guys about managing high stress situations, and he has attempted to apply that to archery.

Joel put the thread on several sites. Probably the best read is over on Tradgang in the shooters forum. I'll try to link it.

I have spoken with Joel on the phone. He is very, very personable. I have also made a tab shear of my own. Personally, I am still struggling with the tab shear application, but I do see where it has merit.

Mitchell


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Here is the link. I know its on a trad forum, but Joel tells me that his brother shoots compounds with fingers competitively, and that is where the tab shear concept initially came from. Be sure and read the entire thread. Some of the questions asked provoked insightful responses.

The link will take you to one of the last pages of the tread, so you will have to back up to the first page. I printed it so I could read it over carefully.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=006578;p=4


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

mitchell said:


> Here is the link. I know its on a trad forum, but Joel tells me that his brother shoots compounds with fingers competitively, and that is where the tab shear concept initially came from. Be sure and read the entire thread. Some of the questions asked provoked insightful responses.
> 
> The link will take you to one of the last pages of the tread, so you will have to back up to the first page. I printed it so I could read it over carefully.
> 
> http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=006578;p=4


Hey, Mitchell!......Thanks!.......I will check that out....."IF" I'm allowed on the Tradgang site....L.O.L.....Take care!..........Jim


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Harperman said:


> Hey, Mitchell!......Thanks!.......I will check that out....."IF" I'm allowed on the Tradgang site....L.O.L.....Take care!..........Jim


I heard you werent Jim !!!!!!!!! LOL !! JK !!


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## KYjim (Nov 20, 2006)

Have you read Jay Kidwells book?

Jim


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

I have read it and watched him on the Barebow Volume 4 video. Probably need to re-read it though.


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