# Disengaged



## EPLC

So, if I understand you correctly, you are using cognitive effort to execute the firing engine while trusting the float/aiming to happen automatically?


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## Padgett

Absolutely, I have always put becoming a totally subconscious shooter on the top of my list of goals to at some point in time accomplish. I am a believer in training and working on specific things weather it is form or engine or floating, to me I have found that there is truth to the discussion that a person can really only control one thing at a time really well, on the days when I would be working on my floating I would control the float and just let the firing engine run itself and on the days when I work on follow through or some other form issue i let my floating and engine run themselves. But time and time again I find that when I focus on my engine is when I really shoot my best.

I don't take this lightly, I really believe that a person has to honest with themselves. I know the difference between having target panic and not having target panic and for years I shot with various forms of target panic where the efforts that I was putting into firing my release were directly connected to what my sight pin was doing, I assure you that nothing I am doing with my firing of the release cares what the float of my pin is doing. Right now I have learned that allowing my aiming to be totally disconnected from my firing of the release is very important to shooting at my highest level but at the same time I am focusing on pulling into the wall with my ring and middle finger very smoothly.


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## Padgett

So what am I controling? 

I am focusing on smoothly running a nice engine where I progressively increase a very nice amount of pressure into the wall with my ring and middle finger. This conscious effort IS NOT CONNECTED TO WHAT MY SIGHT PIN IS DOING, PERIOD.

You guys know that I explain my approach to shooting as spectator shooting where I look through my peep as a spectator who is watching my float and feeling my release firing, I have shot this way for a long time now.


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## Iowa shooter

Your threads are always a good read.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> So what am I controling?
> 
> I am focusing on smoothly running a nice engine where I progressively increase a very nice amount of pressure into the wall with my ring and middle finger. This conscious effort IS NOT CONNECTED TO WHAT MY SIGHT PIN IS DOING, PERIOD.
> 
> You guys know that I explain my approach to shooting as spectator shooting where I look through my peep as a spectator who is watching my float and feeling my release firing, I have shot this way for a long time now.


Thank you Padgett, you make my day!


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## Padgett

I know that I am not a high dollar coach with some certificate on the wall and I am not a pro shooter yet, i am just one of you guys that has a passion for shooting and I want to shoot as good as chance and Levi mad reo. My problem is I feel like I have been on some wild goose chases for the past few years and back tension was the first one and subconscious was the second one.

Now don't get me wrong, I totally have sub conscious things going on in my shoot at all times and I believe that aiming is a must sub conscious part.


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## stoz

I'm not judging in any way but I believe that if your release isn't firing subconsciously then you never will be as good as you can be. I agree with almost every thing you post and the way I train my release to fire is very close to what you use. I just think when you play with so many firing engines you for go firing subconsciously. I am not throwing stones bc I changed in th he middle of the season how I fired mine. But I believed I was grouping better changing.


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## EPLC

stoz said:


> I'm not judging in any way but I believe that if your release isn't firing subconsciously then you never will be as good as you can be. I agree with almost every thing you post and the way I train my release to fire is very close to what you use. I just think when you play with so many firing engines you for go firing subconsciously. I am not throwing stones bc I changed in th he middle of the season how I fired mine. But I believed I was grouping better changing.


His whole point was that he aims without cognitive interference. Some of the top shooters in the world claim to shoot this way. This is not to say that it Is the only way to be successful.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> His whole point was that he aims without cognitive interference. Some of the top shooters in the world claim to shoot this way. This is not to say that it Is the only way to be successful.


Agree... Read Daniel Boone's Thread about hinges. By the read more use other than back tension to fire a hinge. Yep, they "cheat." You can't really call it cheating when they place and win so much....


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## ron w

the physio-mechanical process of a shot's execution, should be, can and is,.... run from the sub conscious process. the physiological process of sight is sub conscious, but the interpretation of that process, is a conscious condition. we cannot, see a ball flying through the air, and catch it, on the run,..... by looking at our feet, or watching where we are going, can we?. we need to be looking at the ball tracking it, until it is all but in the glove. 
how ever, we can run and catch the ball by watching the ball, and not looking where we are going, or at our feet. it takes conscious process to catch the ball, because it is a consciously based action that requires sight, but running can be done by a subconsciously based process, because it is muscular-skeletal based and requires no conscious activity to process the commands that make us run.


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## Iowa shooter

Have any of you read Terry Wunderle's book "Think and Shoot Like a Champion"?
It talks about what Padgett is talking about.


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## EPLC

Iowa shooter said:


> Have any of you read Terry Wunderle's book "Think and Shoot Like a Champion"?
> It talks about what Padgett is talking about.


Yes, great book. The evidence that this method works is overwhelming, but like everything there will be people that succeed with a different process. At the risk of breaking a promise, ron w's analogy of catching the ball is flawed. Looking at the ball is not a conscious act, it is as automated as the feet moving. I'm looking at my computer screen as I type this but it's not a conscious activity any more than looking at the ball to catch it. Once you learn how to catch a ball the entire process becomes automatic. If you take your eye off the ball to will miss it but you are not thinking "look at the ball, look at the ball".


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## SonnyThomas

Mmmmmm???? Tracking a baseball is eye related....a consciousness. That you learn to "follow" a ball is a accepted behavior. Ball hits the glove you know to grip the ball or it bounces out. Sitting behind the plate I sure learned to keep my eye on the ball. Those pitchers threw the ball everywhere  That I could see someone trying to steal a base didn't interfere with catching the ball, but I also knew that I had throw to catch the runner stealing base. So see ball coming in, allowing error, catch the ball, grip the ball, set to throw, throw the ball all in a few heart beats." So we're pretty fast at thinking regardless.


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## EPLC

Eye activity is probably one of the most automated motor skill there is and the director that runs the show. This is why automated skills are so much more effective than non-automated as they are truly capable of multitasking. The more automated your skill, the higher the performance will be, archery is no exception.


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## RCR_III

This concept in archery would be linked to trusting your float in my opinion. 

You learned to watch the ball into the glove. You were a little kid being told by dad or a coach or whoever, keep your eye on the ball. Watch it into the glove. Pause. Then next step. Or something to that affect. 

So in archery you get taught to put the pin on the spot you want to hit and keep it there. Then you start to force it there and overrun it. So, going back to the baseball reference. Watch little kids try to catch grounders. The ball is bouncing and they are trying to line up the glove with the bounce and over run it. But, as they get older and more experienced they learn to just watch the ball and the glove finds it as it's bouncing. 

The brain has the confidence to know to align the body up to catch the ball based on what it is perceiving with the eyes. Same thing in archery. 

Your body will natrually align your body and move your body for you to make the shot happen when it is perceiving an x. When you trust in that concept and let it work, then you are no longer forcing and controlling to get back to the x as you float. You are letting your subconcious work you back to the x and time your muscle and body movements together for you. It's fluid. It just happens.


EPLC said:


> Yes, great book. The evidence that this method works is overwhelming, but like everything there will be people that succeed with a different process. At the risk of breaking a promise, ron w's analogy of catching the ball is flawed. Looking at the ball is not a conscious act, it is as automated as the feet moving. I'm looking at my computer screen as I type this but it's not a conscious activity any more than looking at the ball to catch it. Once you learn how to catch a ball the entire process becomes automatic. If you take your eye off the ball to will miss it but you are not thinking "look at the ball, look at the ball".


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## EPLC

RCR_III said:


> This concept in archery would be linked to trusting your float in my opinion.
> 
> You learned to watch the ball into the glove. You were a little kid being told by dad or a coach or whoever, keep your eye on the ball. Watch it into the glove. Pause. Then next step. Or something to that affect.
> 
> So in archery you get taught to put the pin on the spot you want to hit and keep it there. Then you start to force it there and overrun it. So, going back to the baseball reference. Watch little kids try to catch grounders. The ball is bouncing and they are trying to line up the glove with the bounce and over run it. But, as they get older and more experienced they learn to just watch the ball and the glove finds it as it's bouncing.
> 
> The brain has the confidence to know to align the body up to catch the ball based on what it is perceiving with the eyes. Same thing in archery.
> 
> Your body will natrually align your body and move your body for you to make the shot happen when it is perceiving an x. When you trust in that concept and let it work, then you are no longer forcing and controlling to get back to the x as you float. You are letting your subconcious work you back to the x and time your muscle and body movements together for you. It's fluid. It just happens.


Exactly!


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## stoz

EPLC said:


> His whole point was that he aims without cognitive interference. Some of the top shooters in the world claim to shoot this way. This is not to say that it Is the only way to be successful.


But I believe he said his goal was total subconscious process.


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## Padgett

I have totally been honest that I train with multiple releases and firing engines over the past few years and during that time the one thing I had to do was learn how to float without completely independent from what I was doing with my release because I had them all layed out on my 3d stool and I was switching them every shot or every 5 shots. I even shot some 60x rounds with two hinges on purpose because I had to see for myself if I could do it and what I learned is that as long as my firing of the shot is Disengaged from the aiming I was fine.

I don't think most people really ever get disengaged and they hide behind their back tension shooting as a crutch because they are scared, they are scared that if they feel anything or do anything during the shot that the shot is going to fall to pieces. I have chosen to not think this way, I have chosen to look at my float and see it for what it really is and accept it as a good float that is going to give me awesome scores. I don't have to worry about it or force it or command it to do anything, I know it isn't perfect and I am going to miss from time to time but for the most part it is going to give me perfect shots. This 100% acceptance is why I am able to smoothly pull into the wall with my ring and middle finger while I think about it without messing with my float, as I am pulling into the wall with my fingers I am thinking about it as a smooth process that is going to give me a sweet surprise release.

I know most of you guys have never met me or shot with me so other than a few posts here and there hearing some thoughts or opinions is about all you have to go on. I do shoot almost every day through out the year and I shoot for a few hours each day that I shoot so I get in tens of thousands of shots per year, I can't do this and just shoot scoring rounds with the same release and method 100% of the time. So I break down my shooting sessions into specific training areas and I also do tournament shooting virtually every day. When I am doing my training part of the sessions I may use a couple releases and firing engines but during my tournament portion I use my dominant hinge and my dominant firine engine only and I crank out maybe a hour of perfect shots. The first hour or so would have been my training session.

During the 3d season the asa tournaments are one month apart so my training sessions usually start when I get home from a asa and last for a week or two and include a couple local tournaments and then in the last week and a half I am totally committed to one release and one firing method to prepare for that asa. Right now I am having to take the winter off from spending money so I don't have a shoot coming up but I am doing a peak session for a good two months straight shooting indoor with one release and one engine to see how strong I can be. Leading up to this I spend september through december training with a couple hinges and firing engines and I chose one combination to do this peak session. It is going well.


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## stoz

Just curious why you change firing engines instead of finding the best one and ingrained it. Do you find that your best one changes like I did last summer. Or another reason?


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## EPLC

stoz said:


> But I believe he said his goal was total subconscious process.


Yes, he did say that and personally I think the more the shot is made automatic the higher the performance will be. I also think that many of us still fall into the barely 2 group as letting go and just trusting seems to very difficult for many, it certainly is for me. Speaking for myself: I seem to have spurts of that trust but as soon as something goes wrong my automation leaves the building.


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## Padgett

Stoz, I think you kind of answered your question already. How is a person supposed to pick the best one unless they become proficient with each one of them, see that is the difference between me and a bunch of people is that I sucked at all of them and I chose to train with each of them and become proficient with each of them so that in the end I could choose the best one. So many people try something and they compare it to what they have done for years, how is something that you tried for a afternoon or a week supposed to be as good as something you have done for years.

For example I was still better with my index finger release almost 2 years after starting my hinge shooting, so how long should a person train with blind faith that sooner or later it is going to prove to be the best and right decision. Right now I am so much better with my hinge than I ever was with a index finger release that I am glad that I did that training even though at times I totally sucked. 

Secondly I understand what it means to commit to something especially when you believe in it but I refuse to be scared that trying something or doing something other than my primary method is going to hurt me. I remember in the 1980's when my basket ball coaches and baseball coaches preached to us not to lift weights because it would screw up your shot or swing. I also remember coaches telling me to not play wiffle ball because it would mess up our swing, these coaches were simply wrong and scared. They had little to offer a player other than some blanket poliltically correct coaching remark.

I think archery has some of the same issues ingrained in it and I am to the point with my shooting to finally start seeing the truth, right now the fact is that my aiming is completely disconnected from my firing of the hinge. I can fire it any way I please and I shoot awesome and now for the first time I can pick the one that I enjoy and have confidence that it is going to perform really well for me. I have earned that right.


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## schnauza2000

Good to hear Padgett. Bernie Pellerite talks about this too. Conscious movement vs subconscious movement can be visualized by imagining yourself walking. You don't actively tell yourself to put one foot in front of the other, right? Conscious: "Place left foot 14 inches to the front." Subconscious: just walk. Your fine motor skills are capable of repeating tasks very closely with practice, so all you have to do is let it happen. Easier said than done, I know.


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## krakin

You probably all moved your mouse around a lot and clicked a whole lot of times to get to this post right?

Moving the mouse is like your float, and clicking the mouse is like your firing engine. So tell me, how many of you were consciously aware of what it took to move your mouse to where you wanted it, and were consciously aware of when you decided to click? None I bet... now one day after shooting millions of arrows the same way every time, the process of aiming and firing will be just as simple and need no concious thought patterns other than to decide to draw the bow and put an arrow in the X. Move, click, 10 points, move click 10 points, move click, 10 points... till that day... keep the day job...


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## Lazarus

krakin said:


> You probably all moved your mouse around a lot and clicked a whole lot of times to get to this post right?
> 
> Moving the mouse is like your float, and clicking the mouse is like your firing engine. So tell me, how many of you were consciously aware of what it took to move your mouse to where you wanted it, and were consciously aware of when you decided to click? None I bet... now one day after shooting millions of arrows the same way every time, the process of aiming and firing will be just as simple and need no concious thought patterns other than to decide to draw the bow and put an arrow in the X. Move, click, 10 points, move click 10 points, move click, 10 points... till that day... keep the day job...


I for one will go on record as saying my "release" is _nothing_ like clicking a mouse. And never will be. 

Interesting parallel though. Kinda like the breathing parallel, the driving parallel, all the parallel's, they're faulty. Keep the day job. :wink:


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> I for one will go on record as saying my "release" is _nothing_ like clicking a mouse. And never will be.
> 
> Interesting parallel though. Kinda like the breathing parallel, the driving parallel, all the parallel's, they're faulty. Keep the day job. :wink:


So, I'm curious as to how you believe it is different?


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## SonnyThomas

krakin said:


> You probably all moved your mouse around a lot and clicked a whole lot of times to get to this post right?
> 
> Moving the mouse is like your float, and clicking the mouse is like your firing engine. *So tell me, how many of you were consciously aware of what it took to move your mouse to where you wanted it, and were consciously aware of when you decided to click?* None I bet... now one day after shooting millions of arrows the same way every time, the process of aiming and firing will be just as simple and need no concious thought patterns other than to decide to draw the bow and put an arrow in the X. Move, click, 10 points, move click 10 points, move click, 10 points... till that day... keep the day job...


The eyes can not be turned off, period. You see, you react, can react, not react, judgment choice. Look at a word or letter and move the mouse to it. Did you see the point move? Yes you did or how would you know to stop the pointer? Aiming at a target, do you keep running the subconscious when you see the pin off? Consciousness, the state of being aware.
Have your pointer at the bottom of your screen, stopped. Focus on something at the top of your screen and move the pointer side to side. Tell me you don't see it move.....


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> The eyes can not be turned off, period. You see, you react, can react, not react, judgment choice. Look at a word or letter and move the mouse to it. Did you see the point move? Yes you did or how would you know to stop the pointer? Aiming at a target, do you keep running the subconscious when you see the pin off? Consciousness, the state of being aware.
> Have your pointer at the bottom of your screen, stopped. Focus on something at the top of your screen and move the pointer side to side. Tell me you don't see it move.....


Ok, I don't see it move. "Consciousness, the state of being aware" has little to do with motor functions. While it is true that you can make the decision to break in and screw up a nice automatic activity in an instant, sometimes this is the problem.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Ok, I don't see it move.


Doctors say you can if you don't have eye issues. 

"Understanding Peripheral Vision

While staring straight ahead and without moving your eyes or head, try to be aware of the objects to the left and right, above and below you. *These objects lie outside your central field of vision*, in what is called your peripheral vision. Peripheral vision is the part of our vision that is outside the center of our gaze, and it is the largest portion of our visual field. A normal visual field is approximately 170 degrees around, with 100 degrees comprising the peripheral vision."

*"Peripheral vision is a part of vision that occurs outside the very center of gaze.* There is a broad set of non-central points in the field of view that is included in the notion of peripheral vision. "Far peripheral" vision exists at the edges of the field of view, "mid-peripheral" vision exists in the middle of the field of view, and "near-peripheral", sometimes referred to as "para-central" vision, exists adjacent to the center of gaze."

"Peripheral vision
The ability to see objects that are not located directly in front of the eye. Peripheral vision allows people to see objects located on the side or edge of their field of vision"

"*Peripheral vision may well be the most important aspect of functional vision* although it is usually not formally evaluated in a standard eye exam."


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## elkbow69

Good thread and good insight here.

I kind of think of the topic to shooting in a state of "sub-concious, mental pause" ....sort of a kind of grey minded shooting? Doing it like this: load arrow, set, draw/anchor breathe,,blank mind,,,,, uhhhhhhhhh aimmmmmmm uhhhhhhh, shot goes of,,, x.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> So, I'm curious as to how you believe it is different?


Aww, c'mon ELPC. You know better than that. Clicking a mouse is the same thing as command shooting a trigger. Not anywhere near the kind of release most people strive for. Don't believe I want any part of that. 

If clicking a mouse is the same thing as shooting a release properly I probably need to go to NASP school and start over. My follow through needs serious work too. :wink:


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## ron w

you'll never win !!!........I guarantee it.


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## holler head

I don't post much, but I have been following these hinge threads, so we can't turn off the conscious mind, it has to be doing something!!

Pagett has hit the nail on the head, you have to separate the front from the back, you either have to aim consciously or run your release process consciously 

The sight pin movement varies from day to day, some people can consciously aim and run the release sub-consciously regardless of what the pin is doing, I believe this is called trusting your shot.
Some people can't handle the movement, (I'm one of them) the movement causes a stop and go or a freeze up, so we can put the pin in the middle let the sub-conscious aim and then consciously focus on running the release to follow thru. Just what works for me


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Aww, c'mon ELPC. You know better than that. Clicking a mouse is the same thing as command shooting a trigger. Not anywhere near the kind of release most people strive for. Don't believe I want any part of that.
> 
> If clicking a mouse is the same thing as shooting a release properly I probably need to go to NASP school and start over. My follow through needs serious work too. :wink:


Clicking a mouse is as automated a skill as any other motor skill. It's like anything you do repetitively. That's the only connection. 



ron w said:


> you'll never win !!!........I guarantee it.


It's not about winning ron w... 



holler head said:


> I don't post much, but I have been following these hinge threads, so we can't turn off the conscious mind, it has to be doing something!!
> 
> Pagett has hit the nail on the head, you have to separate the front from the back, you either have to aim consciously or run your release process consciously
> 
> The sight pin movement varies from day to day, some people can consciously aim and run the release sub-consciously regardless of what the pin is doing, I believe this is called trusting your shot.
> Some people can't handle the movement, (I'm one of them) the movement causes a stop and go or a freeze up, so we can put the pin in the middle let the sub-conscious aim and then consciously focus on running the release to follow thru. Just what works for me


This is what it's about. There are many that find this method best for them, myself included.


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## N7709K

Pick a half and trust it- it's that simple. Shawn picks the front half to forget about, I pick the back half.... We both end up with arrows in the middle day in and day out with acceptable repetition of both. We have gotten to where we are at in very different ways and by different methods and there has been tension between us over some of the finer points. I'll stick with trusting my shot; it works for me, it puts arrows in the middle.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Pick a half and trust it- it's that simple. Shawn picks the front half to forget about, I pick the back half.... We both end up with arrows in the middle day in and day out with acceptable repetition of both. We have gotten to where we are at in very different ways and by different methods and there has been tension between us over some of the finer points. I'll stick with trusting my shot; it works for me, it puts arrows in the middle.


Another truism from the land of snow and ice. I'm curious about automating the back end as my hold has never been solid enough to do that. What gets the motor running? Is it a conscious command or does it just run automatically? Also, since I assume you are not controlling the movement, isn't just watching the front end really an automatic skill as well as is your firing engine? Your comment that you just screw off until the shot breaks would make me think that is the case?


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> Absolutely, I have always put becoming a totally subconscious shooter on the top of my list of goals to at some point in time accomplish. I am a believer in training and working on specific things weather it is form or engine or floating, to me I have found that there is truth to the discussion that a person can really only control one thing at a time really well, on the days when I would be working on my floating I would control the float and just let the firing engine run itself and on the days when I work on follow through or some other form issue i let my floating and engine run themselves. But time and time again I find that when I focus on my engine is when I really shoot my best.
> 
> I don't take this lightly, I really believe that a person has to honest with themselves. I know the difference between having target panic and not having target panic and for years I shot with various forms of target panic where the efforts that I was putting into firing my release were directly connected to what my sight pin was doing, I assure you that nothing I am doing with my firing of the release cares what the float of my pin is doing. Right now I have learned that allowing my aiming to be totally disconnected from my firing of the release is very important to shooting at my highest level but at the same time I am focusing on pulling into the wall with my ring and middle finger very smoothly.


I believe I'm where you were at way back. I fully understand the need to separate/disengage both ends of the shot. A couple of seasons ago I was having some success with this separation but seems as though I have lost it. My question is: You've said many times that you went through a progression to get to this point. What was the trigger that allowed you to make this breakthrough?


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## N7709K

EPLC said:


> I'm curious about automating the back end as my hold has never been solid enough to do that.


learning and mastering your shot to a point of automation has NOTHING to do with what the eyes see; there is no stimuli from the eyes that governs learning and committing the running of your shot the non-cognitive portion of the brain. You learn your shot independently from aiming and merry the two together after the shot is learned; then you polish that pairing to get to where everything works exactly the same day in and day out. Shawn shoots multiple executions of his shot; I do not... Where he changes the finer points of execution and works those during the shot, I trust my shot will put arrows in the middle because it has done its job with a very high success rate for the last 15000 cycles...

As for the rest... You can pick things apart how you want; i've put all of it out there several times and nothing has changed from when i put it up. It seems that what you are trying to get out of the information given has changed and you are looking for the "correct" answers from certain people.... The short of it is this: i aim in the middle and let the shot happen. There isn't more too it that than; I don't trust my dot, and especially I don't trust it to sit still when i let it have free run. My approach to aiming is much the same as looking through the corner while driving; I don't focus on the dot[the road in front of me], I focus on the end point [end of the corner] but I am still very well aware of what my dot is doing [the road in front of me]. 

When you shoot at a high level and have things mastered there aren't hard lines on anything: there is no "i'm gonna start my shot now", "that is how i have to set my grip", etc... through cyclic happenings of shooting the actions become learned behaviors and require no thought... its like breathing in that when you think about it and consciously do the task it becomes much more difficult and things slip up; thats how shooting a bow is for me- I can do a whole number of things that I cannot teach because when it comes down to breaking the process into steps and not a learned behavior I cannot repeat the action (arrow twirl is one of them....). Truth be told my shot just happens; I get to the line, think about what I'm gonna think about, and go score arrows when they tell me to go score....


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## montigre

N7709K said:


> learning and mastering your shot to a point of automation has NOTHING to do with what the eyes see; there is no stimuli from the eyes that governs learning and committing the running of your shot the non-cognitive portion of the brain. You learn your shot independently from aiming and marry the two together after the shot is learned; then you polish that pairing to get to where everything works exactly the same day in and day out.
> 
> As for the rest... You can pick things apart how you want; i've put all of it out there several times and nothing has changed from when i put it up. It seems that what you are trying to get out of the information given has changed and you are looking for the "correct" answers from certain people....


I'm begining to feel people here are less interested in improving their approach to the game and more interested in justifying their own conception of how things are. If they hear a correct response (notice I said "A correct" and not "The correct") from shooter X instead of shooter Y, or if it differs from what they have been using over the years, then they simply go into argue mode and attempt to discredit the poster. 

I know most of the readers here primarily shoot 3D and we've been discussing a lot of issues that are geared more specificly to spot shooting, so this may be where some of the need to discredit lies....But I can guarantee that those 3D shooters who are doing all of the bickering will not reach the top of their games unless they learn what it takes to compete in the spot arena--which will entail losing or modifying some or all of what they have picked up in the past and taking on new or different approaches to setting up and/or shooting their bows. 

To those, I say: argue away for your mediocrity, you can have it.


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## ron w

there's no real difference between a shot at a spot target and a shot at a foam critter, or for that matter, live game,.... as far as your shot process is concerned. your shot process,..... if it's well developed..... doesn't care what it is shooting at, it only knows to do the same process, every time it is called on to perform. 
most of the various drills we do, are objectively purposed towards, separating conscious interference and the process that runs the shot the best way, by teaching the process to trust itself internally and ignore conscious input, beyond the evaluation of how the shot is proceeding. some conscious activity runs all the time, the evaluation of the shot's progress, is unavoidable and without it, we would not be able to abandon a shot that isn't running right, with a let down. 
it's this ability to tolerate the that evaluation that runs as we shoot, that is the root of most shooters problems. 
any stimulant that changes how the shot runs because of the "type", of target it's running on, is produced by what your eyes see and the conscious input of tension developed by what your eyes see.


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## wwflake

Padgett said:


> So what am I controling?
> 
> I am focusing on smoothly running a nice engine where I progressively increase a very nice amount of pressure into the wall with my ring and middle finger. This conscious effort IS NOT CONNECTED TO WHAT MY SIGHT PIN IS DOING, PERIOD.
> 
> You guys know that I explain my approach to shooting as spectator shooting where I look through my peep as a spectator who is watching my float and feeling my release firing, I have shot this way for a long time now.



I shoot a thumb release but I like the swing thought (oh wait that's golf) errrrr release thought of pulling into the wall with the ring and middle finger while letting my thumb and pointer relax allowing the release to slightly rotate sending the arrow directly into the "X"! Good stuff!


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## ron w

you really should not have to "focus", on running a smooth execution, that's the whole idea of moving the execution to your subconscious process. when it's there, you don't have to focus on it and that leaves room for you to focus on sight alignment.....you can't focus on both, at the same time.


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## Padgett

Eplc, I totally controlled my release of the arrow for over 30 years and had no idea that it was the wrong thing to do. I thought it was the correct thing, even when I started hinge shooting I was totally controlling where my pin was at and trying to time my release to exactly when the pin was perfect. I read a book and then participated in these threads talking about aiming and I finally actually tried to do it on my own and it didn't take long for me to experience a good shot where I disconnected my aiming from my firing of the hinge.

The problem is I had PRIDE and DESIRE to WIN that kept getting in my way and I would end up controlling my aiming with my firing of the hinge. 

The first day that I actually allowed myself to disconnect and actually compete is still a special day to me, I showed up to a indoor league and I had been shooting really good at home and Sam Woltius was there. He is my local pro indoor shooter and I wanted to beat him so bad but it would take a 60x round to do so and I really wasn't a 60x shooter at the time, I had shot a few but not that many and I couldn't produce them anytime I wanted to. I missed a x on the first end and I was controlling every one of those shots and flinched and missed the 4th shot of the end, as I went to get the arrows I saw that sam had hit every one of his dead center so I knew he was going to shoot a 60x that night so I just decided to enjoy my shooting and relax. I shot the next 3 ends really solid and I had disconnected my aiming from my firing of the hinge and everything was really fun to experience even though he was ahead. Then all of a sudden he missed two x's in a row and I can remember going to the target thinking to myself to just continue to relax and enjoy my shooting, I ended up shooting a 300 59x that night and beat my pro shooter and I had never experienced that much pressure in my life, the last end sam shot his last shots really quickly and I still had three arrows left and I knew he had shot a 58 x so I couldn't miss. I simply told myself to relax and let my pin float on the x and I would be fine and I did it. I had Beat Sam.

For me that was the moment when I did a lot of reflecting on what was going to allow me to become a strong shooter, I was still a infant when it comes to understanding aiming and floating and the value of staying disconnected from firing the release but this victory over Sam was the one thing that sent me on a quest to get these things ironed out in my head.

This is why when I listen to n7709k like in the post he just made on post number 38 I hear someone that really has learned these same lessons and can enjoy his shooting. When I started my quest I couldn't tell the difference in good advice and poor advice and guys who where just spinning their wheels.

So there you have it, it took me a long time to get here but it has been worth every minute. I am 45 years old and I have some good years left in me to enjoy and hopefully I will continue to improve because it won't take much more and I will be at a level I never thought possible but it really is within reach and I can't wait for it to happen.


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## Padgett

Ronw, you know I think that sometimes you make things so set in stone that you close your mind off to the reality of what takes place in real life. I can still remember the day in high school when I pitched my first perfect game, I was rolling through the innings and pitching awesome and the ball was just going into the catchers mitt on autopilot. I was totally on fire and the wall just went where my mind wanted it to go without me forcing it to go there, then for some reason in the 6th or 7th inning I started getting behind in the hitters and the ball was hitting about 5 inches to the left for about 10 pitches and I almost walked two hitters but survived. 

I stepped off the mound after getting a guy out and reflected a little on what I should do and I decided to focus on putting a little extra pressure on my middle finger and that should bring the ball back to the mitt. I totally thought about it while I made those next few pitches and the ball found the mitt again and soon after I had a perfect game.

You can't tell me that there is any difference in pitching and shooting a bow because both of them have aiming and executing going on and by putting a little pressure on my middle finger to move the ball over a little had nothing to do with forcing the ball over to the mitt or commanding my pitch. The same thing is true in archery, you can totally add a little pressure to a finger and it doesn't have to have anything to do with the aiming of the bow. Secondly, sure it is great when everything is running perfectly and the shots are just happening and the arrow is hitting dead center without having to put out any extra effort. I experience this all the time but sooner or later when you draw back and you are a little tired or pressure heats up what do you do when the bow quits firing? Well you can be hard headed and stand there and suffer, you can let down and draw back again and suffer some more or you can let down and say to yourself "hey, I am going to start floating this time and add a little pressure to the middle finger"


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## Padgett

What irritates me about myself is that I totally understood all of the lessons of aiming already at a age of 18 years of age because when I tell a story like the baseball story in the last post I obviously understood subsconscious pitching totally but it took me over 20 years for me to cross this knowledge over to archery. I am a idiot.


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> I'm begining to feel people here are less interested in improving their approach to the game and more interested in justifying their own conception of how things are. If they hear a correct response (notice I said "A correct" and not "The correct") from shooter X instead of shooter Y, or if it differs from what they have been using over the years, then they simply go into argue mode and attempt to discredit the poster.
> 
> I know most of the readers here primarily shoot 3D and we've been discussing a lot of issues that are geared more specificly to spot shooting, so this may be where some of the need to discredit lies....But I can guarantee that those 3D shooters who are doing all of the bickering will not reach the top of their games unless they learn what it takes to compete in the spot arena--which will entail losing or modifying some or all of what they have picked up in the past and taking on new or different approaches to setting up and/or shooting their bows.
> 
> To those, I say: argue away for your mediocrity, you can have it.


Pretty much agree except for the 3D thing. I've felt it's been nothing but the Vegas face almost throughout the entire forum. The basic "target bow" can be used across all venues, 3D and all spots. I know because I've done it. I quit shooting spots for my own personal reasons and I placed or won in every IAA State sanctioned Championships, Indoor (2), Outdoor (2) and Field (2) and then Spring Openers (Field 3) and Indoor Aggregates (4) from 2004 thru the Indoor of 2006. Heaviest point used, a Carbon Express insert and screw in 75 gr field point. Heaviest arrow, 323 grs.

If by "targets" shown in here I'm not really all that bad with my bows cranking 280 fps+ with arrows of FOC that is said horrible for spots, 6.04%.

Guys, montigre has been doing what we all should be doing, shooting.....not bickering....

Padgett, keep bringing it. I'll read and try...........


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## stoz

ron w said:


> you really should not have to "focus", on running a smooth execution, that's the whole idea of moving the execution to your subconscious process. when it's there, you don't have to focus on it and that leaves room for you to focus on sight alignment.....you can't focus on both, at the same time.


I shot league last nite and wasn't going well. Went 5x,5x then 4,4,4. And it finally dawned on me I wasn't letting my release fire itself I was trying to control it. So the last few ends I literally set up my shot started my release and just watched the dot float. 5x every time. I don't know how you can focus on the release and make good shots for long periods of time. When I won the ibo world's for the 4th time I told my friends after we finished I literally didn't think at all about the release it just went off. All I did was wait and follow thru.


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## ron w

think what you want,...I post what I know works and is the accepted theory and knowledge of the issue at hand.
the point is that when you say things like that, you have no real evidence that says i'm wrong, so saying what you do just looks counter intuitive to factual evidence that is pertinent to this sport. 
if you assert that what I say is wrong, back it up with evidence that applies to archery, not baseball, or some other sport.....this is an archery forum.


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## Padgett

Ronw, I am just a guy that shoots. So I listen to what is said and I have years of personal shooting and that is it. I am sorry that I am not levi morgan with multiple championships to lean on but I am not. Right now I am able to step up and make a perfect shot execution when shooter of the year podium spots are within reach but for right now that is all I can offer you for my personal achievement. I can honestly say that when I made that shot at the asa classic this summer there was more than one shooter in that group that was suffering from the pressure and they failed to make a solid shot, I stepped up and reminded myself to be smooth and enjoy this wonderful moment in my life and I made a sweet subconscious shot. I missed the 12 ring by about a 1/8 inch but it was a 39 yd black bear that I shot for 40 yds and I aimed dead on at the 12 ring and that extra yd put the arrow just a little high to get the 12. Yeah during that weekend there were times when the footing was really poor and I found myself standing there not firing so I let down and told myself to come to anchor and start floating and add a little extra pressure to the ring and middle finger to fire that shot but it had nothing to do with firing on command when the pin was perfect. It was just a little adjustment in my execution that made shooting with poor footing possible.

Thats all I have for you as far as proof or justification, I know what it means to be lucky. Just three seasons ago I put my hinge in my 3d stool and I shot 26 up in less than 16 targets on a tough open b course and found myself in the top ten when I started the day in 43 place. I punched the crap out of every one of those shots when the pin was perfect and it was a cool day of luck that I wish would have never happened because I spent another month and a half trying to duplicate that same success and I totally failed. So I totally understand the effects of poor mental approach combined with poor execution methods because I have lived and died trying to use them.


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## Padgett

I also understand that right now I am going days and sometimes weeks without missing x's and not you or anyone else is going to make me feel like a failure, now the key for me it to stay strong and refuse to accept that what I am doing right now is the end goal. The end goal may very well be 100% subconscious shooting and I am totally working on that and many times it happens by accident because I may be shooting and using a little conscious pressure on my ring and middle finger and I end up shooting 80 shots where I forget to do it because I am dead on perfect and the shots are just happening. To me that is some awesome proof that there is something really important going on that has some really good value, my problem is that sooner or later I end up needing a little something to get me going once I find myself standing there and the bow isn't firing. For a long time I felt like I was cheating if I even thought about adding some pressure because of the guys like you that preach against it, now I am strong enough of a shooter that I don't have any issue or regret or fear that adding a little pressure to my fingers is a bad thing. I actually see it as a good thing that usually resets my system in a few shots and then I go back to just banging x's

In fact this brings up a awesome conversation to be had on having back up plans, I am going to think about it for a few minutes and then start a new thread on it.


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## Lazarus

Every great discovery, in any endeavor, was made by someone who wasn't afraid to step outside the "accepted theory." In archery, "theory" is little more than history. Things are constantly changing, evolving, and improving. That includes our level of knowledge. I'd even go so far as to say that in today's world there is a lot that has been discovered about *precision shooting* in archery that hasn't even been published yet. My opinion only.


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## bowfisher

ron w said:


> think what you want,...I post what I know works and is the accepted theory and knowledge of the issue at hand.
> the point is that when you say things like that, you have no real evidence that says i'm wrong, so saying what you do just looks counter intuitive to factual evidence that is pertinent to this sport.
> if you assert that what I say is wrong, back it up with evidence that applies to archery, not baseball, or some other sport.....this is an archery forum.


There you go Ron. Soon there will be another good shooter that will stop posting because you cant accept his way THAT WORKS FOR HIM.
If anyone thinks this is only one way to do something you are sadly mistaken.


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## Padgett

I just want everyone to know that I still think that ronw may be right and being able to shoot pure back tension subconsciously for thousands of executions in a row without any need to add a little something to it is something I would love to be able to do, I can do it for a long time and shoot awesome but sooner or later one of two things happens. I either start getting tired and my rear arm starts to really feel fatigued and my shot starts to really slow down and then it comes to a stop, this is when I need a reset button to get me up and running again and just standing there in some subsconscious stupor just isn't the answer for me, I have a back up plan for this and I do it. Secondly I find that my mind tends to wander when I don't give it something to do or focus on, I never give the job of forcing the pin to stay still but I will give it the job of following through into the x or I will give it the job of squeezing my ring and middle finger into the wall very smoothly. Either one of these two jobs have nothing to do with the pin or infuencing it and they keep mind occupied and focused.


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## ron w

here we go again....where in my post do I say my way is the only way, or I don't accept anyone else's,.... or his way. I simply stated the way I know it to be, which is not necessarily, the way everyone else should see it. 
if someone posts a rebuttal that implies I am wrong, I would simply like to hear the reason he thinks i'm wrong. just implying I am wrong, with no evident support, doesn't mean anything more than because I don't agree with the concensus, I should not even bother posting.
you can disagree with me all you want....I could care less, I know what I know, as the way it is for me and the way I was taught by all those pros that don't bother coming on this site any more....and as I've said in the past...there's a reason for that.
now, bowfisher, what can you submit to the discussion that is on track with the issue ?. I've posted plenty.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> here we go again....where in my post do I say my way is the only way, or I don't accept anyone else's,.... or his way. I simply stated the way I know it to be, which is not necessarily, the way everyone else should see it.
> if someone posts a rebuttal that implies I am wrong, I would simply like to hear the reason he thinks i'm wrong. just implying I am wrong, with no evident support, doesn't mean anything more than because I don't agree with the concensus, I should not even bother posting.
> you can disagree with me all you want....I could care less, I know what I know, as the way it is for me and the way I was taught by all those pros that don't bother coming on this site any more....and as I've said in the past...there's a reason for that.
> now, bowfisher, what can you submit to the discussion that is on track with the issue ?. I've posted plenty.


With very few exceptions, almost every time you post you are challenging someone as being wrong. There has been tons of evidence presented that disagrees with your rigid views, yet you continue on unaffected. 

*"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, 
which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail 
to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is 
contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer*


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## ron w

yup, sort of like sending PM's that call me "phony" and "bull headed".....those a real good supporting arguments EPLC. wow, i'm impressed. you gotta try a little harder than that.
my views are "rigid", they what are known to me, as well established factual advice, taught by the majority of all upper level coaches around the world and published in books for anyone to read. your resentment of their latitude is simply a lack of knowledge on your part...I can't help that.
EPLC, this thread is about detachment between focus and the shot execution, if don't have anything related to add, don't post personal attacks on someone who does.
every post by me, in this thread that isn't continent, was only in defense of being attacked for my knowledge.


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## Padgett

Ronw, all of the things that you believe in and preach are the most advanced thoughts that a shooter can have only after they have basically reached the limits of growing as a shooter. You can't just hand a bow to somebody and tell them to shoot with back tension and do it subconsciously, they have to do specific training and think about the training until it becomes something that they can do subconsciously. I am as close a a person can get to becoming a pro shooter and I am still in need of doing specific training, for me to shoot subconsciously for the rest of my life and never consciously work on something would be absolutely crazy.

I am in year 4 of my hinge shooting and I am still getting way better as time goes by and right now I am totally committed to peaking for a while and I am not doing my normal shooting drills where I work on specific areas of my shot. I am just shooting and many many many of the shots are simply awesome experiences, some of them though fall into the category of I have let down and I am going to add a little conscious pressure to my ring and middle finger for a shot or two and get things rolling again. But for the most part I am just shooting and tightening my scoring and enjoying every moment.

I won't do this all winter and I may take a week and do some training drills just to reset my system and then in the spring I can peak for a competition again but the thought of never training specific conscious things and just staying at the level I am at right now is simply not smart.

By the way to stay on topic with this thread I guarantee you that during my training absolutely none of my training is to learn to fire based on what my pin is doing or firing when my pin is perfect by doing something with my release. I really do believe that being disconnected from the float is the way to go, now if you would like to try and convince me that I need to be connected to my float and command my release to fire only when it is perfect I would absolutely with out a doubt REFUSE.


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## stoz

I think its just a matter of Padgett believes in thd Terry Wunderle approach that works for him and ron believes in subconsciously executing the shot like I so believe. I dont think you hAve to be at another level to subconsciously execute, you do have to work at it though. You have to consciously train many shots to allow it to work subconsciously.


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## EPLC

Thanks to Padgett, especially as of late. It took a little prodding but now that the methods he uses are very clear I'm able to apply them to my own shooting. A tip of the hat to him!


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## wwflake

stoz said:


> I think its just a matter of Padgett believes in thd Terry Wunderle approach that works for him and ron believes in subconsciously executing the shot like I so believe. I dont think you hAve to be at another level to subconsciously execute, you do have to work at it though. You have to consciously train many shots to allow it to work subconsciously.


Quick question. I am still learning just interested in your opinions. I feel I have had rounds where I am subconsciously shooting and having great results. Then suddenly warming up for the next round I start missing a little left or a little right but feels like I am making good shots in which I just let the shot happen. Is it that I just have not gotten enough reps to notice when something is a little off? Those that shoot subconsciously have to be a little off every now and again or at least I would think. What is your process for getting back on track if it seems things are going wrong?


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## Padgett

One of the most beautiful lessons a guy can experience is when you first start shooting with float and you start banging the center of the 12 ring or x when your eyes saw the pin on the edge of the 12 ring when the bow fired. This was the start for me for when I started finally understanding how I could use the movement of the pin to my advantage. The advantage that I am talking about is eliminating stress, almost all people who shoot a bow are shooting with a certain amount of stress on each shot. If they are in their back yard there is very little stress so they see good shooting but when other people are around or they are in a competition then the stress is very high and the stress gets tied onto what they are trying to do which is make the pin be perfect. They soon fail.

For me learning to leave my float alone not only gave me good shooting but it eliminated almost all of the stress that my shooting in pressure situations created because I was not ok with the fact that my pin was moving around and not perfect and even when it didn't look perfect I was going to hit perfect anyway. These are the first things that I learned that really allowed me to start realizing the truth about shooting.

Right now the truth for me is that I am really good if I float on the spot that I want to hit the center of and then run a smooth firing engine weather I think about it or not. I am going to enjoy the shot and it is going to hit really good. There is no fear or worry or forcing or commanding on the edge of my brain wanting to screw up the shot.

I used to have a big problem with that, even though I was shooting a subconscious in the back of my mind was doubt and a perfectly good shot would turn into a disaster the moment those bad thoughts arrived. For you guys reading this stuff for the first time you totally need to learn how to shoot subconsciously but at the same time you must have a positive back up plan for when something isn't right. That plan is to let down because the moment that you think you are going to fix the little issue that pops up you are no longer shooting subconsciously and you are going to introduce some amount of muscle tension to fix the problem and that tension is going to screw up your shot so just let down.


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## Padgett

wwflake, I was typing another book of a response when you replied.

Accuracy is something that is very important to all of us but in all reality it has got to become around 3rd on your priority list of things to accomplish, I know that it sounds weird but I guarantee you that right now you and most all shooters base the success of your shot on how good the arrow hit on the bulleseye. 

I have learned from the really good shooters that the only thing on their mind is executing a perfect shot and when they do that the arrow will hit really really good, it has taken me a long time to accept this personally but it really has been something nice to finally experience. Just the other day I had a couple poor shots that hit dead center and I had a few shots that hit the line that felt perfect, I was actually more happy about the perfect feeling ones than I was with the ones that I had just gotten lucky on.


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## Padgett

Another thing I have learned is to just move the sight, when I sucked I refused to move the sight for weeks if not months and I guess my shooting was poor enough that I couldn't tell it was off. Once I got better and I got a target bow sight that was easy to move I started moving it as a training drill, I turn the windage a bunch of clicks so that it is hitting to the right and then every shot I put a click in the windage and as the next 10 to 15 shots take place the arrow moves closer and closer to the bulleseye. Now the important thing about this drill is to go past perfece and start hitting on the left side.

Why is this important? Because now you know the dead center setting is between there and where you started so you can now back up between and find the perfect spot. I also do this with my vertical impact and I usually start at 24 yards when I am shooting at 20 yds so it hits about a inch or so high and work my way down.

By the way this little windage drill is awesome to for your execution, why? 

Because you are giving yourself permission to miss the bulleseye, Like I said your accuracy is not your top priority your execution is the top one. So you are going to miss so you can now just execute and shoot a good subconscious shot and as the shot add up and you put a click in the sight the arrow will move onto the bulleseye and all of those shots your brain is totally ok with where the arrow hits because you aren't expecting it to be dead on. Some of your best executions will come from this drill and then once you get things dialed in then you can work on executing the same awesome shots without worrying about where it impacts.


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## ron w

Padgett, I've shot a hinge for 40 years, 10 times as long as you have. I probably have forgotten more about shooting one that you know about shooting one. 
the things I post about are exactly the things I was told, as I learned to shoot a hinge, by a guy that was shooting at a level that gave Terry Raggsdale a run for his money, at Vegas for a couple/few years back then.
there s no "entry-level", form or method of shooting a hinge, with backtension. you either grasp the established concept, or find some other way to shoot the hinge. the concept is the same for the guy that has been shooting for 40 years, as it is for the guy that just bought a hinge today, and wants to learn how to use correctly....where's inaccuracy, or deficiency, or inadequacy about that statement. considering that anyone that truly wants to improve their shooting by learning how to use a hinge, I would think accurate real advice would be welcomed and fundimentals, don't change the longer you shoot with a hinge, or the longer they've been around......as a matter of fact, sometimes some fundamental freshening is very much, advantageous to seasoned shooter.
as far as your post above, good for you, i'm glad you have found a way to shoot the hinge successfully. I understand all you say about the way you shoot a hinge, I simply don't condone that methodology. it doesn't matter if this or that pro uses the way I shoot a hinge or the way you shoot a hinge, or something different, I simply condone the traditional method of radial back tension and and the disconnection allowed by subconscious process of that methodology. I really don't care to talk about other methods and i'm not on here to pay homage to some pro's knowledge about shooting a hinge,...I have my own knowledge of it, I know it works and I know it is the traditional method. I don't have to say it's the same way "so and so" shoots. or add to your ideas, just to make you feel good. what seems to be the problem with that?. if I post disagreement, I also post support for that disagreement as I see it, anecdotally. 
I just recently by PM, from a certain member whose identity, I won't disclose, for his sake. in it, I've been called an "internet phony"...I suppose I should have told the guy that taught me, he was an "internet phony", because he was pretty set on traditional rotational back tension and knew allot about it as well,.....pretty much, just like every other pro was, back in those years. 
I don't ever remember my trying to convince you that your way was not any good or too advanced, or not advanced enough. I merely added my version of what I think it should be learned and/or practiced...... that's what forum discussions are all about. i'm sorry if that doesn't sit right with you, but I don't remember ever reading any ground rules or criteria about the context of this thread and dissecting the shot execution, both mentally and physically, is going to wander into other areas. 

I guess I don't really understand the content of your post. are trying to discount what I say, or tell me that it's too advanced , or what ?. what I post, it taught me just fine when I was about 19 yrs. old, and some people on here call me as dumb as a box of rocks and bull headed, so if I can learn from it, I don't see how someone else couldn't.


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## stoz

wwflake said:


> Quick question. I am still learning just interested in your opinions. I feel I have had rounds where I am subconsciously shooting and having great results. Then suddenly warming up for the next round I start missing a little left or a little right but feels like I am making good shots in which I just let the shot happen. Is it that I just have not gotten enough reps to notice when something is a little off? Those that shoot subconsciously have to be a little off every now and again or at least I would think. What is your process for getting back on track if it seems things are going wrong?


What has helped me get on track and stay there is running a very specific mental program. Control your thought process precisely. After awhile you will know why you missed. I can tell you every miss I make why. Almost every time I miss its bc a not normal thought comes into my head or instead of runner nge my program im trying to figure out why im a little left and instead of running my program I over compensate. Hope this helps


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## EPLC

Let me see now, who would I rather follow? Someone that hasn't missed an X in weeks or someone that thinks he's doing it all wrong? Hmmm...


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## Padgett

I am not surprised that you don't get my post, you think that archery has nothing to do with any other sport and you believe that you have nothing to learn from archery talk. You believe that you were instructed the one and only way that should be taught and that every other method is below your chosen method.

1. I believe that I am just nailing down my understanding of archery and that I have much more to learn, I do think that I have the bulk knowledge and that I am in the fine tuning stages of putting things together.

2. I believe that I am well versed and proficent in every method that I discuss and that you learned 40 years ago one method and you have refused to become proficient in any other method and will never be proficient in any other method. Therefore any and all of your references to your method that come from your opinions is one sided and only a guess by you because you have never done any of them. 

3. I wouldn't be surprised if I am more of a subconscious shooter than you are because I am 100% sure that I am disconnected from my aiming and that I have done the tens of thousands of shots that allow me to fire without thinking about it. 

4. I have coached for a 25 years and I have seen many coaches who start with the end result with kids and adults, I don't. I start at the ground level and build things with people and as time goes by I open new doors for them so that as they build their foundations they get closer to the end result. You talk about the end result and the start the middle and the end as being the same thing, when is a person supposed to learn anything.


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## Padgett

I agree, I have been doing good with ronw in the last few months and I let myself get sucked in. I am sorry for doing that. I really enjoy listening to ronw comments but he just has a way of getting to me and I should have kept my thoughts to myself. I agree that this kind of thread is important, I have had at least 5 new hinge shooters pm me since this thread started and that means that we are getting through to guys many who aren't even posting on the thread.


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## ron w

oh well, you all have that ignore button, use it if you want to.


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## EPLC

Done.


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## stromdidilly

Apologies to Ron for singling him out as he is far from the only one who contributes to the "mood" in these threads. 

I'll go back to my passive observation now


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## Mahly

NOTE: several posts quoting stromdidily have been deleted as he asked for his post to be deleted.

Other posts attacking people have also been deleted.
If you disagree with someone, that's fine. Just don't make it personal!

Repeat offenders will get warnings and/or a vacation.


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## Padgett

I hear you mahly, I am disappointed that I allowed myself to get off track and am sorry to put you in a spot where you have to respond. I have had a lot of new members from archery talk reaching out to me since we started this intermediate advanced sub forum in pms and all of us are opening up their minds to many of the lessons and fundamentals to learn.


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## unclejane

Lazarus said:


> Every great discovery, in any endeavor, was made by someone who wasn't afraid to step outside the "accepted theory." In archery, "theory" is little more than history. Things are constantly changing, evolving, and improving. That includes our level of knowledge. I'd even go so far as to say that in today's world there is a lot that has been discovered about *precision shooting* in archery that hasn't even been published yet. My opinion only.


That's a good point on all kinds of different levels, have to grant that. OTOH, we're still talking about a bow and arrow, so that technology definitely has an upper ceiling to it. And mankind himself hasn't changed physically in any substantive way in a long time; we still have the same physical/psychological limitations now that we had in the 60's when the compound bow was invented. 

So I think adhering to the idea of "fundamentals", however they're defined, in archery is still a rational approach. The skill of hauling back and shooting (Sonny rocks!) a bow and arrow is probably still 90% the same skill as what we were doing 10,000 years ago (and probably earlier)? Ok, maybe 80%? Throw in a release and a sight and ok, that drops to 78% maybe? 

And learning/refining motor skills is surely even more durable; I bet exactly the same capability there today as we had 10,000 years ago. 

My point being, the bow and arrow and the human being really haven't changed that much throughout their history together. So it's reasonable to assume a core set of "fundamental" principles in shooting one that are very likely to produce good results for all shooters. I agree there will be variations in terms of which of those principles work best for various individuals, but I also don't think a total free-for-all is the right approach either.

Still Laz makes a superb point here, so I don't want to discount it. But like I said, we're not talking about nuclear weapon physics here, so we're bound to keep it to some level of simplicity.

Anyway, some thoughts before nodding off to sleep.

LS


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## EPLC

unclejane said:


> That's a good point on all kinds of different levels, have to grant that. OTOH, we're still talking about a bow and arrow, so that technology definitely has an upper ceiling to it. And mankind himself hasn't changed physically in any substantive way in a long time; we still have the same physical/psychological limitations now that we had in the 60's when the compound bow was invented.
> 
> So I think adhering to the idea of "fundamentals", however they're defined, in archery is still a rational approach. The skill of hauling back and shooting (Sonny rocks!) a bow and arrow is probably still 90% the same skill as what we were doing 10,000 years ago (and probably earlier)? Ok, maybe 80%? Throw in a release and a sight and ok, that drops to 78% maybe?
> 
> And learning/refining motor skills is surely even more durable; I bet exactly the same capability there today as we had 10,000 years ago.
> 
> My point being, the bow and arrow and the human being really haven't changed that much throughout their history together. So it's reasonable to assume a core set of "fundamental" principles in shooting one that are very likely to produce good results for all shooters. I agree there will be variations in terms of which of those principles work best for various individuals, but I also don't think a total free-for-all is the right approach either.
> 
> Still Laz makes a superb point here, so I don't want to discount it. But like I said, we're not talking about nuclear weapon physics here, so we're bound to keep it to some level of simplicity.
> 
> Anyway, some thoughts before nodding off to sleep.
> 
> LS


Not trying to be argumentative, but you said you are here to learn. How are you possibly going to learn anything with this seemingly rigid mind set? It's not s cut and dry as you may think. IMO you'd be better served by accepting there may be a whole bunch of stuff outside that box you seem to want to confine yourself to.


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## Lazarus

unclejane said:


> That's a good point on all kinds of different levels, have to grant that. OTOH, we're still talking about a bow and arrow, so that technology definitely has an upper ceiling to it. And mankind himself hasn't changed physically in any substantive way in a long time; we still have the same physical/psychological limitations now that we had in the 60's when the compound bow was invented.
> 
> So I think adhering to the idea of "fundamentals", however they're defined, in archery is still a rational approach. The skill of hauling back and shooting (Sonny rocks!) a bow and arrow is probably still 90% the same skill as what we were doing 10,000 years ago (and probably earlier)? Ok, maybe 80%? Throw in a release and a sight and ok, that drops to 78% maybe?
> 
> And learning/refining motor skills is surely even more durable; I bet exactly the same capability there today as we had 10,000 years ago.
> 
> My point being, the bow and arrow and the human being really haven't changed that much throughout their history together. So it's reasonable to assume a core set of "fundamental" principles in shooting one that are very likely to produce good results for all shooters. I agree there will be variations in terms of which of those principles work best for various individuals, but I also don't think a total free-for-all is the right approach either.
> 
> Still Laz makes a superb point here, so I don't want to discount it. But like I said, we're not talking about nuclear weapon physics here, so we're bound to keep it to some level of simplicity.
> 
> Anyway, some thoughts before nodding off to sleep.
> 
> LS


I would imagine in 1978 when a guy pulled off a _miracle_ and cleaned both Vegas and Cobo Hall in the same season with loose holes in the 10 ring people thought the "ceiling" had been reached too. Guess we found out differently. That was one guy doing the impossible. Now you have to do the impossible to even get in the shoot off at shoots like these. 



unclejane said:


> So it's reasonable to assume a core set of "fundamental" principles in shooting one that are very likely to produce *good* results for all shooters.


Very true. And you just identified the disconnect in this forum to a certain degree. Look at that word I bolded, "good." You can take a textbook written in 1947 that explains how to shoot archery and have "good" results. While some in this forum may be looking for "good" results I would venture to guess that those of us who spend considerable time here aren't looking for "good" results. There is not a single textbook ever written that will take you from "good" to best in archery! What is "good?" I don't know, 300/52x on the blue face? That would be good to a lot of people. But the truth is, a regular 300/52x shooter is about 10,000 years behind someone who is a regular 300/60x shooter. My opinion from my experience only.

I have seen the target you posted here a few days ago. You may be at "good" level for you. I don't know, only you can answer that, it varies between shooters. I can say this for certain though, gather all you can, but when you go from "good" to best in this sport is when you find what formula makes you *best.* No one can tell you what that formula is, you have to find it yourself. 

Have an outstanding day.


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> But the truth is, a regular 300/52x shooter is about 10,000 years behind someone who is a regular 300/60x shooter. My opinion from my experience only.


Great point ^^^

You don't really realize how much more work it takes to get those few extra points until you actually get there. Then the next battle comes, whether it be a smaller circle, or farther distance, the concept is the same. I just have to remind myself sometimes that I do this for fun.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> I would imagine in 1978 when a guy pulled off a _miracle_ and cleaned both Vegas and Cobo Hall in the same season with loose holes in the 10 ring people thought the "ceiling" had been reached too. Guess we found out differently. That was one guy doing the impossible. Now you have to do the impossible to even get in the shoot off at shoots like these.
> 
> Terry was a bit beyond...Right behind him was his good friend, Jack ???? Terry didn't show, Jack won. Just recently the question was posed of bows today giving to better scores and perhaps so, but then we also have sites like AT that make way for advancement. I did a check of Vegas Male Championship. Okay, low of 5 and high of 17 in the middle, 2003 had 11 in the Shoot Off and in 2014 there were 13. Not in the picture are the bunches that were 1 point from making the Shoot Off.
> 
> Very true. And you just identified the disconnect in this forum to a certain degree. Look at that word I bolded, "good." You can take a textbook written in 1947 that explains how to shoot archery and have "good" results. While some in this forum may be looking for "good" results I would venture to guess that those of us who spend considerable time here aren't looking for "good" results. There is not a single textbook ever written that will take you from "good" to best in archery! What is "good?" I don't know, 300/52x on the blue face? That would be good to a lot of people. But the truth is, a regular 300/52x shooter is about 10,000 years behind someone who is a regular 300/60x shooter. My opinion from my experience only.
> 
> I have seen the target you posted here a few days ago. You may be at "good" level for you. I don't know, only you can answer that, it varies between shooters. I can say this for certain though, gather all you can, but when you go from "good" to best in this sport is when you find what formula makes you *best.* No one can tell you what that formula is, you have to find it yourself.
> 
> Have an outstanding day.


Is the 300/52X shooter 10,000 years behind or just the best he or she can be? So many aspire to be the best, but.........


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## pwyrick

Regarding fundamentals, there appear to be a couple of very sound schools of thought. As a sailing instructor, I required all my students to learn my method. Then I encouraged them to push the limits of their unique sets of skills. I also warned them that they would eventually push so far from the fundamentals that they would fail. Knowing the fundamentals would allow them to reset and begin the journey again, and again, until they became the sailor that they wanted to be. I think that some of these principles hold true to archery. We must learn the fundamental of one school and learn them well. But experimentation may allow my unique set of skills (including all of my mind and body) to reach beyond where the fundamentals of my chosen school may take me. So, I'm intrigued by Padgett's disconnection from the front end. I've been trying with some success to disconnect from the back end. I have a coach with whom I'll discuss this theory. Finally, there are some of us that are technicians. That is all that I will ever be. But I can become a great archer as I become more and more technically proficient. But some of us (and only a few) are artists. Their brains work differently than the rest of our brains. For them, they are able to move someplace beyond the technical. It is often hard for them to teach us how they do what they do. But what they do is clearly right for them and often very wrong for me.


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## unclejane

Lazarus said:


> Very true. And you just identified the disconnect in this forum to a certain degree. Look at that word I bolded, "good." You can take a textbook written in 1947 that explains how to shoot archery and have "good" results. While some in this forum may be looking for "good" results I would venture to guess that those of us who spend considerable time here aren't looking for "good" results.


Of course you are. You have to start at "good" before you can get better than good. That's the whole point of a solid foundation in an activity like archery and why we go to the effort to try to establish what a solid foundation really is. You can't start at the top; it just doesn't work that way. As for the shooters from the 40's that came before us, what's that saying: we stand on the shoulders of giants?



> There is not a single textbook ever written that will take you from "good" to best in archery! What is "good?" I don't know, 300/52x on the blue face? That would be good to a lot of people. But the truth is, a regular 300/52x shooter is about 10,000 years behind someone who is a regular 300/60x shooter. My opinion from my experience only.


But how did he or she get to even the 300/52x level? They didn't start at that level of shooting, did they? I doubt it. That's the whole point.


> I have seen the target you posted here a few days ago. You may be at "good" level for you. I don't know, only you can answer that, it varies between shooters. I can say this for certain though, gather all you can, but when you go from "good" to best in this sport is when you find what formula makes you *best.* No one can tell you what that formula is, you have to find it yourself.
> 
> Have an outstanding day.


It is outstanding for me. If I hit the target on purpose I'm both rocking and rolling. How it compares to another's performance doesn't matter to me right now. I'm still just working on "good" LOL.... I'm my main competitor at the moment.

LS


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## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Is the 300/52X shooter 10,000 years behind or just the best he or she can be? So many aspire to be the best, but.........


Look at Matt Stutzman. That should answer that question, it does for me anyhow. 

unclejane.....ok, sounds good.


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## Lazarus

pwyrick said:


> Regarding fundamentals, there appear to be a couple of very sound schools of thought. As a sailing instructor, I required all my students to learn my method. Then I encouraged them to push the limits of their unique sets of skills. I also warned them that they would eventually push so far from the fundamentals that they would fail. Knowing the fundamentals would allow them to reset and begin the journey again, and again, until they became the sailor that they wanted to be. I think that some of these principles hold true to archery. We must learn the fundamental of one school and learn them well. But experimentation may allow my unique set of skills (including all of my mind and body) to reach beyond where the fundamentals of my chosen school may take me. So, I'm intrigued by Padgett's disconnection from the front end. I've been trying with some success to disconnect from the back end. I have a coach with whom I'll discuss this theory. Finally, there are some of us that are technicians. That is all that I will ever be. But I can become a great archer as I become more and more technically proficient. But some of us (and only a few) are artists. Their brains work differently than the rest of our brains. For them, they are able to move someplace beyond the technical. It is often hard for them to teach us how they do what they do. But what they do is clearly right for them and often very wrong for me.


This is one of the most *outstanding* posts that I have seen on this forum, ever. It is so spot on. 

I can't ad anything but this; if you are going to excel at this sport you are going to have to move from the "known" into that area of unknowns for you. In my view, there is absolutely no way someone can technically make you excel in this sport because it *is* an art. Shooting a bow is actually a spiritual endeavor, it really is. There is no way to explain that to someone who doesn't get that. I often type things out on this forum and then delete them because I tell myself, "nope, that will make no sense to anyone" unless you are in the mode. I don't believe most archers are in that mode, but that's where excellence is found. Sadly most miss it I think. 

To summarize, and I've said it before, you have to find your *own* shot. That isn't quick and easy which is the antithesis of the society we live in. In this society most just want to be told the quickest easiest path to (buy) success. I don't believe it can be done in our sport. As always, my view.


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## unclejane

I'm going to have to disagree again, but as always, take it in the spirit in which it's given: my point of view, and not meant to diminish yours or anyone else's.



Lazarus said:


> I can't ad anything but this; if you are going to excel at this sport you are going to have to move from the "known" into that area of unknowns for you. In my view, there is absolutely no way someone can technically make you excel in this sport because it *is* an art.


But art cannot be practiced without a *craft* as its basis - any artist who does well will tell you this unambiguously and will be able to describe their craft in detail. That's one of those laws of the universe like physics LOL. For example, the art of bass playing (one of my skills) absolutely must be practiced on a foundation of basic skills on the instrument: scales, positions, basic physical preparation and for the nutcase fretless players like myself, intonation skills. Even instrument fit - that process can't be skipped either. Those are the *craft* of what I do on the bass. They are a prerequisite to practicing the *art* of bass playing. There is no choice there - the craft *must* be there first before the art can be practiced.
You simply cannot be an artist without also being a craftsperson. Again, that's the basic idea of this thread, I think.


> Shooting a bow is actually a spiritual endeavor, it really is. There is no way to explain that to someone who doesn't get that. I often type things out on this forum and then delete them because I tell myself, "nope, that will make no sense to anyone" unless you are in the mode. I don't believe most archers are in that mode, but that's where excellence is found. Sadly most miss it I think.


That's probably why the ones who struggle with archery are struggling - they're relying on the indescribable and abstract, both of which, at their extremes are essentially indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist. If you can't describe it or otherwise think of it in terms of something real and actual that you do, chances are it's not there. In other words, essential steps have been skipped and the underlying foundation needs to be revisited. Don't ask me why I'm so familiar with that LOL.

Again, this is what I mean when I talk about "fundamentals" in an activity. You just simply can't invert the process of becoming an artist in something that you do - you have to start with a foundation and build on it from there. There's no way to pursue being the best at what you do without first going through being "good" at what you do. Again, this is like the laws of physics; there are no shortcuts or alternatives, that's just how it is. To me, it's that simple and something I try to be as diligent about in my own activities as possible.

LS


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## ron w

sailing, not knowing the fundamentals, will surely kill the enthusiasm, in a hurry. as warmer weather comes this spring, I will start the build of a small cutter for the lake my cottage is on. I've been reading and researching on line...I only hope what I learn about sailing, from that, will be enough to get past the curve of applying it to the real thing.
the building part is the easy part for me.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> Look at Matt Stutzman. That should answer that question, it does for me anyhow.


Well, Matt is another one of those amazing persons.... The thing is, some people can only be so good. I don't care how much training they have, get, drove into their brains, develop coordination/motor skills to peak and have desire beyond they can't reach the top, but they can be the best they'll ever be.....We are human. We all can't be winners.... However, it shouldn't stop one from trying......


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## Padgett

I shot with a finger tab from the late 1970's up to 2006, during that time which was saw three decades of years I had absolutely no instruction and I tried to put the pin on the target and hold it there and then flip my fingers open to release the string, I went through every form of target known to exist. I can remember in 2004 or so when I would start at full draw and put my pin about a foot and a half above the bulleseye and I practiced smoothly lowering my bow about a foot below the target. To shoot I would simply start moving my bow down and when the pin got about a inch or so from the top edge I released knowing that my pin would be on the spot by the time I released the arrow and I just let my momemtum continue below the spot as my follow through.

In 2006 I bought my first cobra release from walmart and I installed a metal d-loop from walmart as well, I didn't like the metal one so I had bass pro tie on a d-loop. I instantly started shooting more accurately and I was just pulling the trigger a variety of ways trying to find the best way to fire the release. In 2007 I got my first good bow the bow tech guardian and I also went to some 3d shoots and instantly became addicted but all the way to 2010 I was still relying on pulling the trigger to shoot. At this point I found some 5-spot targets at the bow shop and I starget out at 300 47 to 50x, I was already winning many 3d shoots this year in the open class with my guardian that I hunted with.

2010 I believe is when I got my first hinge and my suffering began, now my 300 50x rounds continued that year for the most part and then all of a sudden I was seeing 300 54 on a regular basis. The day late that first year I also got my first target bow, my specialist and it had a full set of stabs and a slider sight and a lens. The first day I shot a scoring round with it I shot a 300 58x and since then I haven't shot less than a 56x which has only happened a very few times.

What I have found is that I seem to stay at a certain level for a good chunk of time and then something will change and I make a instant jump and from that point on I don't regress. Most of it is mental and some of it is physical, right now my jumps are mostly internal and not even really seen in the scoring. I am already to the point where I don't really ever miss so if you look at my scoring it is basically the same but the way I feel about my shooting is 100% better and 100%confident which is not something I could have said even 8 months ago.

Right now I am to the point where in my personal shooting by myself at the range I am ready to never miss a x again as my personal goal, I am to the point where I just don't see the reason to miss. As a competitor I want to continue to mature so that I can see the same kind of shooting on the line next to pro shooters.


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## unclejane

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, Matt is another one of those amazing persons.... The thing is, some people can only be so good. I don't care how much training they have, get, drove into their brains, develop coordination/motor skills to peak and have desire beyond they can't reach the top, but they can be the best they'll ever be.....We are human. We all can't be winners.... However, it shouldn't stop one from trying......


That's how I think of myself as an archer. With my physical as well as talent limitations I already pretty much know with about 97.5% certitude that I'll never reach a professional level. That's not a bad attitude, that's just being realistic. OTOH, I absolutely can get better than *I *am now (as long as I dont reinjure myself or something like that) and will probably always be able to continue to outshoot* myself*. If I never win the local league or local shoots, that's ok. It's a goal to strive for, but exceeding my own capabilities over time is more important to me...

LS


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## Padgett

Unclejane, that is the same thing I have been doing. I try and listen to the info and threads that make sense to me and tweek what I am doing, for me I have been improving pretty steadily and I am just praying that I don't stall out.

For me discussions like this one really help me, I think I became disconnected before I even knew that it was a option or a good thing. That is why I really like this new sub forum is because it is forcing me to think deeper into what lessons I have learned by accident and by design. Many of the lessons I had researched or heard and then I strove to experience them but there are so many others that just happened by accident. To me that is the beauty of this sub forum is that we can put them out there and guys can see them instead of just happening on to them.


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## Lazarus

unclejane said:


> But art cannot be practiced without a *craft* as its basis - any artist who does well will tell you this unambiguously and will be able to describe their craft in detail.


Understandable. This is the Intermediate and Advanced Forum. When I post I tend to operate under the assumption that most of the people that might read the post understand that the basics of stance, draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through are best discussed in a different venue. Now, discussing the intricacies of each of those actions is probably what we should be discussing in this forum. Not to mention the mental game, which is what I tend to focus on. Many of these intricacies are intangibles. Many of them are as difficult to describe as how a banana tastes. The more you grow the more you will agree. But I'm certain a wordsmith like you will be able to tell us how a banana tastes right?


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## SonnyThomas

unclejane said:


> That's how I think of myself as an archer. With my physical as well as talent limitations I already pretty much know with about 97.5% certitude that I'll never reach a professional level. That's not a bad attitude, that's just being realistic. OTOH, I absolutely can get better than *I *am now (as long as I dont reinjure myself or something like that) and will probably always be able to continue to outshoot* myself*. If I never win the local league or local shoots, that's ok. It's a goal to strive for, but exceeding my own capabilities over time is more important to me...
> 
> LS


SonnyThomas, Back Yard Champion. That should read SonnyThomas, Former and current Back Yard Champion. Yep, I beat myself. Guess I'm improving  

Hey, if we can't fun.....


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## stoz

So instead of talking about disconnecting, I believe in 2003-2004 I experienced this by being able to reproduce the same shot wo regard to what the sight was doing. I know im not there now. So how do you guys suggest to train to get back to this point? I know ron w suggested the let down drill and I have been trying a few things but would like to hear from others.


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## Tony Bagnall

It was interesting to read this post from Padgett. For the past 3 weeks I have been teaching my wife to let go of the float... By this I mean getting away from trying to hold the pin steady on the center. I gave up on getting a perfectly still pin and when the pin floats tight I leave it and go into the firing mode. One consequence of this is that I loose the pin I just don't see it anymore. As odd as this sounds I really don't see the pin i see the center of the target. My accuracy has improved no end and so has my wifes..
For the past few day she has been able to let go every shot and she keeps asking me why does it work she stacking arrows in the 10 and the X tight together from 20 and 30 yards... to be honest ... I dont really know...... Only that when she does let go i see the end of her stabilizer go in increasingly small circles until it stops just as she fires.


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## EPLC

stoz said:


> I think its just a matter of Padgett believes in thd Terry Wunderle approach that works for him and ron believes in subconsciously executing the shot like I so believe. I dont think you hAve to be at another level to subconsciously execute, you do have to work at it though. You have to consciously train many shots to allow it to work subconsciously.





stoz said:


> So instead of talking about disconnecting, I believe in 2003-2004 I experienced this by being able to reproduce the same shot wo regard to what the sight was doing. I know im not there now. So how do you guys suggest to train to get back to this point? I know ron w suggested the let down drill and I have been trying a few things but would like to hear from others.


Sounds like you are conflicted? In the first quote you are a subconscious executioner, yet today you seem to be more focused on the shot execution being effected by the sight picture. By this statement I'm thinking that in 2003-2004 you may have been less of a subconscious executioner, or at the very least you were just letting it float. Sounds like you are now controlling the pin and it's messing you up. This is exactly why the Padgett way is best for me. If I try to control the pin at all I'm toast. It may work for some but for me... not so much.


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## unclejane

Lazarus said:


> Understandable. This is the Intermediate and Advanced Forum. When I post I tend to operate under the assumption that most of the people that might read the post understand that the basics of stance, draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through are best discussed in a different venue.


I don't see why, given that most who are struggling are doing so because of a difficulty with one or more of these basic fundamentals of shooting. That's the main affliction in advanced musicianship, flying and other activities I follow as well. Then there are shooters like myself who are struggling with all of em! That's why I seek out these forums. The art is very seldom the problem when there is a problem, it's virtually always something to do with the craft.


> Many of these intricacies are intangibles. Many of them are as difficult to describe as how a banana tastes.


Again, that's probably the first reason these intricacies are causing trouble when they're causing trouble. If it's an intangible, it's probably not a real skill. You don't have to know how a banana tastes to eat one, but you do have to know how to peel it, how to chew, etc....

LS


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## Lazarus

unclejane said:


> You don't have to know how a banana tastes to eat one, but you do have to know how to peel it, how to chew, etc....
> 
> LS


I didn't ask how to eat one. I wanted someone to describe what it tastes like. This is the problem. You can't seem to listen. 

Nevermind...........Yes, of course you're right. :thumbs_up


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## stoz

EPLC said:


> Sounds like you are conflicted? In the first quote you are a subconscious executioner, yet today you seem to be more focused on the shot execution being effected by the sight picture. By this statement I'm thinking that in 2003-2004 you may have been less of a subconscious executioner, or at the very least you were just letting it float. Sounds like you are now controlling the pin and it's messing you up. This is exactly why the Padgett way is best for me. If I try to control the pin at all I'm toast. It may work for some but for me... not so much.


I can tell you when im shooting good im subconsciously executing. I can tell you for a fact when im not shooting well im thinking about the release. I would like to perform more consistently on subconscious level. It comes and goes. 
EPLC if his conscious execution works great. Go for it. I can tell you for me for shooting 20 years back tension and winning mire stuff than most people would dream of conscious execution does not work for me. And I dont control I watch the float. I think the hang up is im too concerned about it and im too careful. I tend to watch and wait.


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## EPLC

The problem with the "basic fundamentals" argument is that the "basic fundamentals" have basic differences as well, depending on who you talk to. Of course at some level, if you go high enough, everything meets. You shoot an arrow from a bow, would be a fine example. The compound bow has only been around for about 50 years of the thousands of years of archery. The modern compound bow is a whole different ball game and it's only been the past 20 years of so that the compound has reached the degree of refinement that it is now. There are more really good shooters today than ever before and this is due to better equipment and new teaching and training techniques that have evolved along with the technology.


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## EPLC

stoz said:


> I can tell you when im shooting good im subconsciously executing. I can tell you for a fact when im not shooting well im thinking about the release. I would like to perform more consistently on subconscious level. It comes and goes.
> EPLC if his conscious execution works great. Go for it. I can tell you for me for shooting 20 years back tension and winning mire stuff than most people would dream of conscious execution does not work for me.


You are misreading my words. I'm not saying you should be doing anything any specific way. I stated what seems to be best for me. I also said you sound conflicted and now controlling your pin. Regardless of the methodology you choose, controlling the pin will mess with your execution. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## stoz

I'd love to take a survey of all the top archers and see what percent fits into where and what they focus on.


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## cbrunson

I think I would like a good definition of "shooting well".


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## stoz

EPLC said:


> You are misreading my words. I'm not saying you should be doing anything any specific way. I stated what seems to be best for me. I also said you sound conflicted and now controlling your pin. Regardless of the methodology you choose, controlling the pin will mess with your execution. Nothing more, nothing less.


I dont think im ever controlling my pin its just when its moving more than usual im slowing down and being more careful. I used to be able to shoot for hours and committed to months of blind bale and slowly working back and my shot process just ran. At one point in a archery talk league i shot 10 weeks clean 600 averaging 25-26x per half.


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## unclejane

Lazarus said:


> I didn't ask how to eat one. I wanted someone to describe what it tastes like.


But that's irrelevant to the craft (if you will) of eating a banana. That's the point I'm making. If you don't know how to eat it in the first place, the "art" of tasting it doesn't matter.

LS


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## stoz

cbrunson said:


> I think I would like a good definition of "shooting well".


Does it matter? But if you would like. I do not miss and average probably 22-23 x on a 300 when shooting well. The other night in a not so well nite a started out on a blue face round 5,5 then went several 4 ends bc I started thinking about being smooth and my release. Then finally convinced myself to just watch the dot and let it happen and finished with several 5x ends with the last end all io


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## EPLC

stoz said:


> I'd love to take a survey of all the top archers and see what percent fits into where and what they focus on.


I'm not sure what the big hissy fit is over this, what ever way works for you is the right way. So, you asked for help, you didn't like the answer, no problem. Why people get soooo upset because their way isn't the only way makes me scratch my head. 

With regard to your survey... Here's one:

“I approach my shot as I believe an NBA player would approach a free throw. Each shot is a chance for perfection and for that one moment, nothing exists except me and the target. After setting my feet, I try to recreate my perfect shot every step of the way, beginning with removing my arrow from my quiver. Physically, I focus on recreating the same situation as best I can. Mentally, I subconsciously aim while talking my way through the execution of my release.” ~ Braden Gellenthien


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## cbrunson

stoz said:


> Does it matter? But if you would like. I do not miss and average probably 22-23 x on a 300 when shooting well. The other night in a not so well nite a started out on a blue face round 5,5 then went several 4 ends bc I started thinking about being smooth and my release. Then finally convinced myself to just watch the dot and let it happen and finished with several 5x ends with the last end all io


Well to me, it matters because everyone wants to be the advice giver rather than the taker. I am just as guilty as the next guy. The issue I see is somewhat in line with what I believe a few others have pointed out. Yes there are some basics that will get the average shooter to the 300/50X level, but is that where the guy at the 58/59X wants to be? Does the guy at the 50X level even know what it takes to get to the 60X level? I don’t really think he does. I have to agree with Laz on this one. You can’t describe the taste of the banana until you’ve eaten one. Even then, the person hearing it, won’t truly understand until he has got a taste for himself.


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## Padgett

That was a cool quote you found from Braden Gellenthien, what he described is exactly what I have been doing for the last year especially when I am training. This is when my best runs of 400 to 500 x's in a row have happened and exactly why I started this thread. When I think back there are a couple of things that I think have been lucky to experience this season.

1. "I don't care if I hit the 12 ring" In the asa open a class our courses are really tough and getting 12's are just tough to come by, so sometime this season in the spring I started doing something that really helped me. I decided to make 20 perfect executions per day and I do not care if I hit the 12 even if it is a easier shot, I am going to simply execute a perfect shot and go write down the score. This year I shot almost 50% 12 rings on more than one day of asa and many of the 12's came on the long shots right along with the shorter ones. The key was that I didn't look at the course as easy shots that I had to have and long shots that I just need to survive. I looked at each shot as a opportunity to execute a perfect execution while my pin floated on the 12 ring. 

2. I don't have 20 20 vision so I really can't see the 12 rings on most 3d targets, I try and find a marker which could be a arrow or something on the target to aim off of. Therefore I decided that I am going to pick my location and commit to it and float right there and execute my spot without worrying about being perfect about my floating on the exact spot.

These two decisions of how to approach shooting a 3d course made my season a very good one and I was in contention most of the time to do something either a top ten or a podium or a victory or shooter of the year. When I look back on those two decisions to me they lean towards the title of this thread, "Disconnected". As the season progressed I really started to see the value on the competition courses of what I did in my training sessions, up to then I was still forcing 12's to happen and failing most of the time.


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## erdman41

cbrunson said:


> Well to me, it matters because everyone wants to be the advice giver rather than the taker. I am just as guilty as the next guy. The issue I see is somewhat in line with what I believe a few others have pointed out. Yes there are some basics that will get the average shooter to the 300/50X level, but is that where the guy at the 58/59X wants to be? Does the guy at the 50X level even know what it takes to get to the 60X level? I don’t really think he does. I have to agree with Laz on this one. You can’t describe the taste of the banana until you’ve eaten one. Even then, the person hearing it, won’t truly understand until he has got a taste for himself.


I wholeheartedly agree.


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## stoz

cbrunson said:


> Well to me, it matters because everyone wants to be the advice giver rather than the taker. I am just as guilty as the next guy. The issue I see is somewhat in line with what I believe a few others have pointed out. Yes there are some basics that will get the average shooter to the 300/50X level, but is that where the guy at the 58/59X wants to be? Does the guy at the 50X level even know what it takes to get to the 60X level? I don’t really think he does. I have to agree with Laz on this one. You can’t describe the taste of the banana until you’ve eaten one. Even then, the person hearing it, won’t truly understand until he has got a taste for himself.


I see your point. No problem. Still haven't heard from anyone on drills to get there .


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## stoz

EPLC said:


> I'm not sure what the big hissy fit is over this, what ever way works for you is the right way. So, you asked for help, you didn't like the answer, no problem. Why people get soooo upset because their way isn't the only way makes me scratch my head.
> 
> With regard to your survey... Here's one:
> 
> “I approach my shot as I believe an NBA player would approach a free throw. Each shot is a chance for perfection and for that one moment, nothing exists except me and the target. After setting my feet, I try to recreate my perfect shot every step of the way, beginning with removing my arrow from my quiver. Physically, I focus on recreating the same situation as best I can. Mentally, I subconsciously aim while talking my way through the execution of my release.” ~ Braden Gellenthien


EPLC
I think you're interpreting .me wrong bc the tone of this whole thread has been hostile. I will take advice but I've been shooting long enough to know whst works for me. And as far as the survey I thought it would be interesting to see nothing more. And I have had dinner with Braden so I know.


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## stoz

Padgett said:


> That was a cool quote you found from Braden Gellenthien, what he described is exactly what I have been doing for the last year especially when I am training. This is when my best runs of 400 to 500 x's in a row have happened and exactly why I started this thread. When I think back there are a couple of things that I think have been lucky to experience this season.
> 
> 1. "I don't care if I hit the 12 ring" In the asa open a class our courses are really tough and getting 12's are just tough to come by, so sometime this season in the spring I started doing something that really helped me. I decided to make 20 perfect executions per day and I do not care if I hit the 12 even if it is a easier shot, I am going to simply execute a perfect shot and go write down the score. This year I shot almost 50% 12 rings on more than one day of asa and many of the 12's came on the long shots right along with the shorter ones. The key was that I didn't look at the course as easy shots that I had to have and long shots that I just need to survive. I looked at each shot as a opportunity to execute a perfect execution while my pin floated on the 12 ring.
> 
> 2. I don't have 20 20 vision so I really can't see the 12 rings on most 3d targets, I try and find a marker which could be a arrow or something on the target to aim off of. Therefore I decided that I am going to pick my location and commit to it and float right there and execute my spot without worrying about being perfect about my floating on the exact spot.
> 
> These two decisions of how to approach shooting a 3d course made my season a very good one and I was in contention most of the time to do something either a top ten or a podium or a victory or shooter of the year. When I look back on those two decisions to me they lean towards the title of this thread, "Disconnected". As the season progressed I really started to see the value on the competition courses of what I did in my training sessions, up to then I was still forcing 12's to happen and failing most of the time.


Now we're getting some where. How about spots. Whats your thought process.


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## Padgett

Stoz, I didn't realize you had asked a question about how to get there. 

For me when I was a 58x type shooter on 5-spot I touched the line on many shots and 7 would be outside looking in and only 45 or so would be inside out. My local pro was counting inside out x's one night and it caught my attention and by the end of the night I think he shot 56 or so of them. I shot a 58x that night and I think I had less than 45 inside out x's and it was a eye opener to me that even though I finished 2 shots away from his 60x he was so much stinking better than me.

So lets talk inside out x's:

1. Count them as your training session and you need your binos during this because when you shoot a inside out x you need to reflect how it felt and then do it on the next shot exactly the same. This is how you begin to nail down what is your perfect execution type shot.

2. Feel the things that move your arrow off the center of the x and cause them to not be a inside out x and once you identify little things tweek them out of your execution.

I spend hours shooting x's , I like to tell myself that it is time to go bang some x's but what I really consider a x is a perfectly dead center hit. Just last week I had a day where I shot for almost a hour and a half and I only had 4 arrows hit the line and none of them were on the outer half. Right now I consider a poor day of shooting where I have 7 or so shots that hit the line solid or on the outer half.

What this type of training has done is make my dead center shots feel perfect and my shots that touch the line feel horrible which to me is a good thing because I am tightening up my group to be inside the 10 ring on a vegas target almost 95% of the time. I shoot xxx arrows so if I am inside the 10 ring I am guaranteed a x.

I had more to say but I have a doc appt so I have to go, pm me if this is the kind of stuff you wanted. I have more.


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## cbrunson

stoz said:


> I see your point. No problem. Still haven't heard from anyone on drills to get there .


That's where the differences lie I believe. The way I aim is different than most here seem to think is the right way. That's ok if we aren't going to argue over it.

I aim hard. It may seem impossible for some guys that have not ever been able to get the dot to hold still, but for me, it is knowing when the shot breaks, exactly where the arrow is going. Yes, I let the occasional one go with a little more float than I like and still get the baby X, but sometimes those are the line lickers or misses too. I don't like that. I like the dot to be rock solid in the middle. Does that work for me all the time? No, but that is what I am working on right now. If I had it working every shot, I would be pounding 30X Vegas targets. I know it works, because I am getting it right a lot more often lately. I am getting a lot more one hole spots. (see below) That's 12 arrows in one hole. (two practice ends) The other two spots aren't as good, but I know what was wrong with each shot. It takes a lot of time and practice to get to this point, and a lot of confidence. I have found mental management to be the breakthrough concept. Discipline, and "knowing" that if I can hold it there, it goes right in the middle. 

This doesn't mean I think trusting a float is wrong, it just means that I don't look at it that way when I shoot, and I am getting better, not going with the more popular fundamental beliefs. It's just an offering that is in my opinion, beyond fundamentals.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> “I approach my shot as I believe an NBA player would approach a free throw. Each shot is a chance for perfection and for that one moment, nothing exists except me and the target. After setting my feet, I try to recreate my perfect shot every step of the way, beginning with removing my arrow from my quiver. *Physically, I focus *on recreating the same situation as best I can. Mentally, *I subconsciously aim while talking *my way through the execution of my release.” ~ Braden Gellenthien


Play on words.....


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## stoz

I worked tonite on acquiring and setting up my shot quicker which seemed to give me a bit more time to execute in my ideal shot time frame. Its a work in progress I guess. Appreciate the input.


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## cbrunson

stoz said:


> I worked tonite on acquiring and setting up my shot quicker which seemed to give me a bit more time to execute in my ideal shot time frame. Its a work in progress I guess. Appreciate the input.


I don't operate in a set time frame, but I do agree that aquiring fast and holding longer is the right idea. If it takes me too long to get there, I usually can't get it to settle in before the shot breaks down.


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## SonnyThomas

Yes, acquiring the target gives a edge. The Terry Ragsdale post, drawing straight back instead of what looks way high drawing. And then remember the NFAA put a height of the bow hand, forehead high max. From some pictures I doesn't appear the NFAA is enforcing it, but pictures are pictures.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Play on words.....


Surely you must be joking.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Surely you must be joking.


Not a bit. I pointed it out because we have used the wrong word (s) or term (s) in other posts.  Physically focus? Or do you place all concentration? Concentrating or focusing is not physical. Subconsciously aim while talking or thinking to yourself? Moving your jaw isn't going to help things.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Not a bit. I pointed it out because we have used the wrong word (s) or term (s) in other posts.  Physically focus? Or do you place all concentration? Concentrating or focusing is not physical. Subconsciously aim while talking or thinking to yourself? Moving your jaw isn't going to help things.


What I posted was an exact quote from one of the best shooters in the world. It is common knowledge that he shoots this way. Take it up with him.


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## ron w

lot's of mis-understanding going on, here !. 
sight is a conscious activity,.... it happens in real time.....there are no pre-learned set of commands that can be called on to see something and move and align the sights to the center, because there no situations where the "sight is", or "can be moved", exactly the same form shot to shot and you can't train your eyes to see something, other than what they see. you aim consciously by interpreting what needs to be done by what your eyes see, at the moment they see it,.... what they saw last shot or last week, doesn't apply to what they see and what you have to do for the current shot that they are seeing in,.... and talk yourself through the shot, subconsciously.
when you blind bale, your eyes are seeing nothing, because the actions you are learning, subconsciously, have nothing to do with what your eyes might see.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> lot's of mis-understanding going on, here !.
> sight is a conscious activity,.... it happens in real time.....there are no pre-learned set of commands that can be called on to see something and move and align the sights to the center, because there no situations where the "sight is", or "can be moved", exactly the same form shot to shot and you can't train your eyes to see something, other than what they see. you aim consciously by interpreting what needs to be done by what your eyes see, at the moment they see it,.... what they saw last shot or last week, doesn't apply to what they see and what you have to do for the current shot that they are seeing in,.... and talk yourself through the shot, subconsciously.
> when you blind bale, your eyes are seeing nothing, because the actions you are learning, subconsciously, have nothing to do with what your eyes might see.


You are very mistaken. Eye sight is probably the most automated skill there is... to describe it as a "conscious activity" is just plain misleading... period. And, your recommendation to use cognitive commands to control sight movement as it happens from shot to shot is probably the worst advise anyone could give to someone trying to learn to shoot.


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## erdman41

I basically approach my shot the way Braden describes. I am not using any concious mental effort to keep my sight in the middle. It does that on it's own. 

The same way I drive a vehicle. I am not constantly thinking oh a little right now uh oh now back a little left. Oh a right hand turn coming up a better turn the wheel. It just happens. I actually always drive with my left hand just in case that might help with my bow arm.

But I'm sure I doing it completely wrong according to a few on here.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> I basically approach my shot the way Braden describes. I am not using any concious mental effort to keep my sight in the middle. It does that on it's own.
> 
> The same way I drive a vehicle. I am not constantly thinking oh a little right now uh oh now back a little left. Oh a right hand turn coming up a better turn the wheel. It just happens. I actually always drive with my left hand just in case that might help with my bow arm.
> 
> But I'm sure I doing it completely wrong according to a few on here.


You could not have said this any better. You example is perfect. The only thing I would add is that the eyes are directing the automatic corrections as needed. The eyes are doing this all automatically as well. With archery, regardless of where you perceive you place your focus, front end or back, intentionally controlling sight movement is something that should be avoided like Ebola.


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## Padgett

This 3d season really was my first year where I actually did shoot with my float completely disconnected from my firing efforts, now what is cool is that by doing this I totally got to learn one of the lessons that becoming a good shooter has to offer. I mention this from time to time that there are little lessons to be learned and many times I don't actually talk about them so this time I am going to.

LESSON 1, DON'T TOUCH IT JUST LET DOWN!!!


When I was shooting really good with my float I would glass the 12 ring and then commit to the shot and come to full draw and my float this year was freaking awesome and 40 yards to 20 yards my pin floated inside the 12 ring most of the time so I would be floating and running my engine and sometimes for a variety of reasons the pin would leave the 12 ring for a moment and I would touch the pin and try and move it back over to the 12 ring. Almost ever single freaking time that I did this my bow would fire the moment that I used my front arm to move the pin back over, I mean all I wanted to do was bring it back and then continue floating and make a sweet shot. Touching the pin just a little just proved to be something that was guaranteeing me missed 12 rings by about 1/8 to 1/4 inch.

Now, after doing this during the first couple months of the season from jan and feb in early march I had identified the lesson to be learned and I simply decided that I was never going to touch the pin again that I was going to let down every time that the pin did something I didn't like. Lesson 1 learned.

LESSON 2: What if it is early in my shot and the pin floats to the outer edge or even leaves the 12 ring just a little bit, do I let down?

Well I had already decided that I was never going to touch the pin and try and influence it so that lead me to discover how powerful the float really is at giving me awesome shots. I simply continued my shot and just spectated and on shots where my pin left the 12 ring a little around a 1/4 inch I found that within a split second my brain had already noticed and was turning it around and sending it back to the center of the 12 ring so there was no need for me to do anything anyway and almost everytime I was banging 12's even though it seemed like my pin was off the 12 ring when the bow fired. LESSON 2 LEARNED.

Just hearing people talk about these things doesn't work, you need to experience them to fully start to feel the power that they have. Each one of the little lessons once learned get you closer to being 100% free of controlling your pin and moving on to awesome shooting. Spectator shooting is something that if you haven't read the article you have got to read it, I wrote that article trying to work with a individual shooter and when I was done writing it the first time I realized how special it really was. At the time I wrote it I wasn't 100% Disconnected but the spectator article was the door that I needed opened and once I went through that door then I started learning these little lessons that have changed everything for me. 

I am going to put the spectator shooting article below and let you read it, and remember I was just working with a individual shooter. Then I am going to put the target panic article right after it and in that article you are going to see many of the lessons that I learned that have allowed me to become that spectator shooter.

I haven't read them for a couple months so I am going to read them also, enjoy.


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## Padgett

“Spectator Shooting” is something that I envisioned in August 2013, I was becoming a hinge shooter but I was still hanging on to some to the issues of being a puncher for so many years. That month I asked myself a question; “Does Reo Wilde hope or pray or force himself to hit a bullseye? My answer was hell no, he is the best freaking shooter in the world and he already knows he is going to get an x. He has an awesome small float and a good firing engine and he just lets them do their job and he gets to watch through the peep as it happens. I thought to myself I wish I could watch through his peep and see what his float looks like and what his firing engine feels like and just watch the arrow fly to the bullseye.

That is when I envisioned “Spectator Shooting” for the first time because I decided to do exactly that with my own shooting, I know that I am not Reo Wilde but why the hell can’t I act like him. I study my float all the time and I know what it looks like and I have a very good float, I also have a good firing engine that fires my hinge in around 3 to 5 seconds every shot. I decided to just draw back and settle in and then just spectate through the peep and watch my float without touching my pin or influencing it, I really do just watch it do its thing and at the same time I run my engine and yes I can feel it running but I don’t mess with it I just watch my float and I feel the engine running and then the arrow is on its way and I watch it hit the bullseye.

This is “Spectator Shooting” and to me it is the ultimate goal of letting go of commanding the shot in any way, “Spectator Shooting” is very relaxing and stress free because you aren’t controlling the pin and you aren’t pausing and restarting the firing engine so you are really just watching through the peep.


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## Padgett

Forcing, Touching, Commanding, and Pausing

The following four things simply have to leave your shooting forever, they have no positive purpose in your shooting.

Forcing and Commanding: They are very similar and they involve grabbing the pin and strangling it when it is perfect and then firing when the pin is perfect.

Touching: This is when you have started your firing engine and the pin floats off the bullseye for some reason and you grab the pin and try and move it back to the bullseye, many times this extra muscle tension causes the hinge to fire and you miss the bullseye.

Pausing: This is when you float off the bullseye during your firing engine running and you put on the brakes and pause until you can touch the pin and bring it back to the bullseye and then fire up the engine again. It causes freezing up and poor shots.

All of these issues must leave your shooting forever because they lead to many bad shots every day and even when you are lucky and have a good day they will kick your butt tomorrow. I personally shot over 10 60x rounds of 5-spot last year commanding and forcing every shot and it was simply the most stressful shooting I have ever done. Right now I am not doing any of these things and I am so much better that my future goal is to be an everyday 60x guy instead of a guy that accidentally shoots a 60 x once every few weeks or only during a really good week.
Socket Man


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## Padgett

TARGET PANIC:

In the 1980’s when I was a finger shooter I had it and didn’t even know what it was called, last year I became a hinge shooter and shot around 10 five spot rounds with a perfect score of 300 60x and I had it. Target panic can be something that brings your shooting to a halt or it can just sneak up and nibble at your ankles and screw up a good score with one miss for that day. Right now for the first time in my life I am shooting with absolutely no target panic for the first time and it is a awesome experience to say the least, my shooting sessions are so fun and relaxing and I can enjoy my shooting weather it is a perfect day or I miss a few. Eliminating target panic isn’t a guaranteed perfect round but it is the peace of mind that you are going to make a good shot every time you draw the bow and at least give the arrow a chance to find the bulleseye. So lets get started and take a look at how I have gotten there.

1. THE DECISION: About three months ago I made the decision to never send a arrow to a target again that didn’t feel right, I don’t care if it is my footing or my firing engine or my eyes blurr or there is some glare on my scope lens. If something isn’t right I let down and take a few breaths and then draw again. For most guys at some time during a bad shot something isn’t working out and they force the shot to go ahead to happen and they pray that they make a good shot. This is when target panic likes to jump up and bite you in the azz and send the arrow 7 inches away to the right or something. Simply make the decision to never do this again.

2. STUDY YOUR FLOAT: For most of us shooting the arrow is what we want to do all the time but stepping back and not shooting can bring more in return, at least 2 days a week you need to study your float. I personally do this during warm up when I get to the range and I simply draw back and watch my pin float inside the 5-spot x and I look for patterns that it has and I learn what it likes to do during the first part of the float and the middle and when I am running out of breath. Then I let down and take a few breaths and I draw back and shoot the arrow and now I am studying my float to see if it looks the same as when I wasn’t shooting, this is really important to develop a firing engine that runs so smooth that your natural float pattern isn’t affected by the firing engine.

3. WELL DEFINED PRACTICE SESSIONS: You must think about each part of your shot and that means your firing method and your floating and your form and your aiming, to many guys preach that your shot must be subconscious and yes it should be but you must develop a good firing engine and let your muscle memory build up so that you can let it become subconscious and that means training. There are three main practice sessions you must cover and they are floating, firing engine, scoring rounds. When you are practicing one of them absolutely do not think about the other two so when working on floating you aren’t thinking about firing or scoring a good score, you are only studying your float. When you are shooting a scoring round you aren’t thinking about firing or aiming you are only spectator shooting and enjoying the good score.

4. SPECTATOR SHOOTING: Spectator shooting is my second favorite article I ever wrote and probably the most important one, my hinge setup routine is my favorite and first article I ever wrote but you absolutely must read the spectator shooting article and become a spectator. Just pm me and I will send it, it speaks for itself.

5. INTERNAL ARROGANCE: I guarantee you have some but you need to learn to use it to your advantage instead of letting it hurt you, the second that arrogance turns into a pride thing where you are worried about missing a shot you should totally smoke the bulleseye you are letting your arrogance work against you. We all have a feel for what our personal shooting ability really is and what bulleseyes are easy for us to shoot, therefore having the internal arrogance to know that the bulleseye is already mine and now I am going to simply spectator shoot and get the bulleseye and write it on my score card. I don’t have to force the shot or hope the arrow hits the spot or pray that the arrow hits the spot because this shot is within my ability to smoke it every stinking time. This is using your internal arrogance to help you instead of hurt you.

6. I SIMPLY DO NOT CARE: Sooner or later you are going to figure out that caring when the release fires or wanting to know when the release is going to fire is the thing that creates target panic, so stop caring. The key here is to realize that you can develop firing engine that runs like it is on cruise control and fires your release within a window of something like 2 to 5 seconds, then you tie it together with your float pattern and time them so that your firing engine is going to fire within the optimal good float window. The key here is if your release fires withing the optimal float window then you are guaranteed a bulleseye so why in the hell would you care when it fires, that is why I simply don’t care.


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## stoz

You know you sound a whole lot more like a subconscious shooter than you let on to be. Lol some good stuff there


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## SonnyThomas

stoz said:


> You know you sound a whole lot more like a subconscious shooter than you let on to be. Lol some good stuff there


Not picking on you, just saying......Conscious, subconscious, automated, senses, motor skills.... I don't worry about subconscious this or that, consciously do, automation, cognitive commands. The brain works. That we can't change it we should accept it as is. Every part of the brain is hard wired together, one smooth functioning machine that computer companies wishes their computers interacted or behaved so smoothly. I get hyped a bit and throw out; "I just haul back and shoot." It doesn't mean I don't do a bunch of stuff along the way before the arrow is on the way to the target.
Again, no coach I know of instructs with such technical language or terms of........


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## EPLC

A friend of mine once said, "All men are created equal, just some are created more equal than others".


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> A friend of mine once said, "All men are created equal, just some are created more equal than others".


You were friends with Samuel Colt? Wow! Greatness! I knew you were old but didn't make you out to be quite that old. :wink:


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## Padgett

Stoz, You are so right. 

It took me a long time to bring this thread and actually start it, I don't like lying to myself and I really do believe that I am a subconscious shooter. I have just found over the years that if you even mention anything about your firing of a release that has one little tiny bit of thought in it you get labeled and scolded and called a cheater and bashed. From the moment that you even mention it the reader usually mentally labels you and from that point on refuses to do anything but talk you out of cranking or rotating the release even though I am doing neither of them. 

I just feel like I am at the point where my shooting and knowledge of what is going on is ready for me to step up and give the new or intermediate shooters a look into what is going on and possible with their shooting and then they can make their decision on what path to take. The purists and pushy guys that refuse to give any insight to other methods left me bleeding in the ditch gasping for air for almost two years once I purchased my first hinge not to mention the 4 years or so that I was a member at bow country and lurking here on archery talk. If I had had one shooter step up back then and tell me something other than you need to get a back tension release maybe I could have 10 years of hinge shooting and already be a pro shooter instead of just now getting ready to make that final push. Don't get me wrong I am absolutely happy that I have made it this far and after having a minor stroke this fall I am really just enjoying every awesome shooting day that I am allowed to have.


----------



## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> You were friends with Samuel Colt? Wow! Greatness! I knew you were old but didn't make you out to be quite that old. :wink:


Not quite, but close  and I didn't know that my friend stole it  and I can't even bust his chops over it as he died about a year ago. :sad:


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> Stoz, You are so right.
> 
> It took me a long time to bring this thread and actually start it, I don't like lying to myself and I really do believe that I am a subconscious shooter. I have just found over the years that if you even mention anything about your firing of a release that has one little tiny bit of thought in it you get labeled and scolded and called a cheater and bashed. From the moment that you even mention it the reader usually mentally labels you and from that point on refuses to do anything but talk you out of cranking or rotating the release even though I am doing neither of them.
> 
> I just feel like I am at the point where my shooting and knowledge of what is going on is ready for me to step up and give the new or intermediate shooters a look into what is going on and possible with their shooting and then they can make their decision on what path to take. The purists and pushy guys that refuse to give any insight to other methods left me bleeding in the ditch gasping for air for almost two years once I purchased my first hinge not to mention the 4 years or so that I was a member at bow country and lurking here on archery talk. If I had had one shooter step up back then and tell me something other than you need to get a back tension release maybe I could have 10 years of hinge shooting and already be a pro shooter instead of just now getting ready to make that final push. Don't get me wrong I am absolutely happy that I have made it this far and after having a minor stroke this fall I am really just enjoying every awesome shooting day that I am allowed to have.


I've done a lot of reading on this recently (for obvious reasons) and have come to believe that once you have done something a certain amount of reps it becomes at least partially automatic whether you realize it or not. The debate over what end you place your conscious thought, focus, or whatever you want to call it is really not important. No matter what you think you are doing, your automation continues to develop more and more as you continue reps. As you develop your skill into an automated process, the more and more the cognitive thought process is freed up to do what ever else needs to be attended to... Once a skill has been made automatic you are free to do what ever makes your boat float with your cognitive thought... so long as you continue to look at that X. Just like the driving example, if you take your eyes off the road, all bets are off. 

Holding: As Mr. Colt suggests, some can just hold better than others. It either just comes naturally or they have found the ability through outside means. This has always been my problem... even prior to my tremor taking over my hold wasn't wonderful. In spite of this I found ways around it and put up some pretty good performances... I have a shooting machine. I can "put the dot in the middle and just shoot" and almost never miss. So what does this prove? Well for one thing it shows that I can aim. It also shows that I can execute with confidence, knowing the shot will be a good one. There are several that have posted that they can hold the dot in the X/10 ring and know that they can do this over and over. I have no doubt that this is true, I have seen their targets. Just watch Jesse Broadwater shoot, he's like a statue... amazing how steady he is. 

Trust me when I tell you I know this subject matter as well as anyone. I've done thousands of reps on the short bale. I've tried the both ends of focus, etc., etc. While my shooting is half way decent, even quite good at times, I still can't hold like I hear it can be done. So, what really separates the truly great one's from the "good" shooters? I believe it's the ability to hold, and if you can hold steady enough you can get away with whatever method you choose, you can think about whichever end you want... or as Jacob said, just screw off until the shot breaks (or something along those lines). So... a tip of the hat to those that can hold that pin, I certainly have never been able to be that steady. To top it off the more I try the worst it gets. So, I've had to take a different route. What I have found that works best for me is to pay no attention to the movement, focus on the X, and think myself through my shot process.


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## MsNipeR

EPLC said:


> You are very mistaken. Eye sight is probably the most automated skill there is... to describe it as a "conscious activity" is just plain misleading... period. And, your recommendation to use cognitive commands to control sight movement as it happens from shot to shot is probably the worst advise anyone could give to someone trying to learn to shoot.


eyesight is consciuos activity


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## unclejane

EPLC said:


> You are very mistaken. Eye sight is probably the most automated skill there is... to describe it as a "conscious activity" is just plain misleading... period. And, your recommendation to use cognitive commands to control sight movement as it happens from shot to shot is probably the worst advise anyone could give to someone trying to learn to shoot.


Sorry, ron is right again and is giving correct advice. What you do with your eyesight is itself a motor skill - for example, learning an instrument scan in flying an aircraft on instruments (AKA IFR flight) is a skill like operating a hinge release. You have to learn it the same way you learn how to shoot a hinge: rote learning through instruction, and then consciously controlled practice until it's automated and shuttled to the subconscious. So eye movement is not different in kind from other motor skills in any essential way.

LS


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## ron w

this really getting silly, isn't it, unclejane ?.


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## unclejane

ron w said:


> this really getting silly, isn't it, unclejane ?.


Well, I can't understand how it can be thought that our eyesight isn't under conscious control. That's not just wrong that's weirdly wrong....

LS


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## SonnyThomas

I already noted how it was with the 5 major senses. They can not be turned off.
Touch, some one sticks you with a needle you don't yell 5 minutes later.
Taste, something hits the taste buds you don't like you know it right there and then.
Hearing is instant also, though someone may say something and you don't understand what they said as like "lost in thought."
You smell something like delicious fresh baked cookies or something rotten you know it now, not later.
Seeing is no different, "hard wired" into the brain. You may stare out in space, have no recognition, but you still see. I jumped on "physically focusing. You can't see harder physically. You can focus on one specific spot as in put all your concentration on that specific spot or object, but even then you see "something" that which you aren't concentrating on. Said time and time again our eyes our like a camera. You want to take a picture of a object and all that there in the lens is captured. That captured outside our main focus is due to our peripheral vision, which is broken down in near the iris, middle and outer. I don't remember how it was put, but some of our peripheral vision can see things that if we look directly at can't see. Something about the "rods" in our eyes allowing colors to be seen our iris doesn't pick up or pick up readily.


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## Lazarus

I just like to go on record as saying this; 

It may go clear back to C.N. Hickman, maybe beyond. But whomever might be credited as to first introduce psychological lingo and terms into the sport of archery. I want to kick him square in the nutsack. 

It's amazing what you will/can learn about shooting a bow if you'll "Just SHOOT YOUR DAMN BOW!" :tongue:

That's the title of my new book by the way, you heard it here first...............thank you. I'll be here all week. :thumbs_up


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## ron w

that principle, is our built in "survival responce" facility. our peripheral sight is in constant contact and communication with our conscious management, ready to tell it to send reflex commands to avoid injury. it has nothing to do with the issues of conscious vs. subconscious sight, as applied to this discussion. it doesn't work the same realm that our sight regularly works in, under normal, or non-emergent circumstances.


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## EPLC

unclejane said:


> Sorry, ron is right again and is giving correct advice. What you do with your eyesight is itself a motor skill - for example, learning an instrument scan in flying an aircraft on instruments (AKA IFR flight) is a skill like operating a hinge release. You have to learn it the same way you learn how to shoot a hinge: rote learning through instruction, and then consciously controlled practice until it's automated and shuttled to the subconscious. So eye movement is not different in kind from other motor skills in any essential way.
> 
> LS


You have now officially joined your buddy on the ignore list.


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## Padgett

I just shot my damn bow for just over 30 years and during the last 8 years I had the same 6 easton xx75 arrows, I shot at 20 yards at the same spot and after 8 years 5 of them were still in good working order because I sucked. 

Just shoot my damn bow by myself or with my dad got me absolutely nothing but a 30 year seminar on how to deal and hit the paper plate with target panic, and I am a freaking expert on all levels and afflictions that target panic has to offer. It took my 23 years of bow hunting starting when I was 12 years old to finally kill a deer with my bow because I was just shooting my damn bow.

Fortunately I have found archery talk and some good shooting buddies that have given me the knowledge that I needed and I have trained hard for the last 4 years and finally after all the work I am now able to shoot my damn bow really freaking damn good.

I really do appreciate all the help that I have gotten here and from my friends, I appreciate my local shop for giving me free bows and range time so that I can shoot after school from 3:30 to 5:00 every night. Thanks.


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## Padgett

Hey, I just saw that I now have 10,000 posts. I looked the other day and I still haven't done hardly any personal threads that I started and I don't list classifieds so almost all of them were giving out responses or opinions or help to someone. I have gotten one or two complaints where a moderator had to pm me with a warning but I made it without having to take a time out or getting banned.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> I just shot my damn bow for just over 30 years and during the last 8 years I had the same 6 easton xx75 arrows, I shot at 20 yards at the same spot and after 8 years 5 of them were still in good working order because I sucked.
> 
> Just shoot my damn bow by myself or with my dad got me absolutely nothing but a 30 year seminar on how to deal and hit the paper plate with target panic, and I am a freaking expert on all levels and afflictions that target panic has to offer. It took my 23 years of bow hunting starting when I was 12 years old to finally kill a deer with my bow because I was just shooting my damn bow.
> 
> Fortunately I have found archery talk and some good shooting buddies that have given me the knowledge that I needed and I have trained hard for the last 4 years and finally after all the work I am now able to shoot my damn bow really freaking damn good.
> 
> I really do appreciate all the help that I have gotten here and from my friends, I appreciate my local shop for giving me free bows and range time so that I can shoot after school from 3:30 to 5:00 every night. Thanks.


I ain't tell ya I shot my first deer with compound after 1 year. I ain't telling ya I've averaged 2.67 deer per year for the last 14 years and I never went deer hunting this year, yet. I ain't tell ya about the 6 pointer that scores 142 2/8" (state record) and I ain't tell ya about the one that scores 175 5/8". Ya might get upset.....


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## Padgett

Sonny, that just isn't fair. You know I was absolutely happy all those years hunting with my dad, we were camping in tents and eating out of a cooler and having so much fun. Even the back yard shooting was fun and that is why I was doing it all those years even though I sucked, I didn't even realize that I sucked until now when I look back on it. I am just glad that I made it out from my back yard and have found my way to where I am, I couldn't be happier.


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## Mahly

It has been said repeatedly, though the numbers vary, that archery is 90% mental.
I don't see what is wrong with working on that 90% instead of ignoring it to just work on the other 10%. 
Not all minds are alike. For some, the shoot the damn bow idea works.
But it will have limitations. You might do great things without ever working about where to shift your conscious mind (luckily, that's likely where you started, and you don't need to know the path to your best shooting).
Others didn't start there. They were told to do, or focus on something. 
Some shoot great focusing on aiming, some shoot great focusing on their firing engine.
If you are at your BEST focusing on your engine, your probably not at your best focusing on your aim. And vice versa.
If your game CAN be improved (I don't care how good you are, can you be better?) just focusing on what you have always done won't yield great results. So you need to know what else can be done to shoot better.
For the most part, we have most of the physical stuff down pat by now. Form, draw length etc. we know what we are looking for. But the HARD part is knowing what mental part you can improve.
All we can really logically do is either ask someone who does it a different way, how/why they do what they do, or form an educated guess as to what might work (a theory as it were).
If you don't wish to look at the mental side of the game, your research and advancement ends somewhere just after your "how's my form" thread, and you just practice doing it one way, and get as good as you can doing it that way.
If you wish to look at the mental aspects of shooting, you have a lot more to study.
If archery IS 90% mental, why not spend some effort improving THAT part of your shooting?


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## EPLC

MsNipeR said:


> eyesight is consciuos activity


Everything is a conscious activity so long as you are conscious. Automated is a whole different ballgame.


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## Ky*Bowhunter

I have been lurking around reading into this subject alot and im gonna throw my hat into the ring... To me doing a task subconcious is nothing more than doing somethin you have done 10,000 times without really having to think about it.... Very simple. The problem people run into is trying to do somethin subconcious before theyve ever really built a strong foundation on what their body needs to perform. I dont care if you have done it a million times if you have never broke the procedure down and built it piece by piece and learned it individually you are really wasting time.

I feel like most people (not everyone) think by just shooting thousands of arrows their body just learns and repeats.... Like a machine. When of course in reality your body can actually repeat something like that with great accuracy. Without conciously learning the particular routine that you are shooting you're going to tun into a major problem. The problem being yourself. Under any stressful pressure situation you never want to fail. So now when you draw the bow you want everything perfect form wise. So the first moment you think about getting in perfect form and never have built an actual shot process your mind goes crazy trying to think what you need to do to be in the right position. Your mind has never conciously learned how to grip the bow. Never conciously learned where that perfect consistant anchor is. So from this point your concious mind has absolutely screwed you. Now your constantly worried if everything is spot on, which leads to tension, which inturn destroys any chance you have of repeatability. 

If we break our shot down piece by piece and learn everything individually over many thousands of arrows THEN we can bridge into shooting subconcious. THEN we can learn how to be "disengaged". Thats the fun part. So after building a concious repeatable shot. All we have to do then is draw back like we practiced on those many thousands of arrows and occupy our mind with a variable we have control of. Your firing engine being a perfect example. I shoot a hinge so i control my mind by rotating the release slow and smooth with my middle and ring finger. I think in my mind ONE simple thought. " steady and smooth." It is impossible to quit thinking. So put somethin in your mind that you will benefit from. If im practicing and i notice that when i get my bow arm as relaxed as it can get and i just start drilling. Thats a positive thought i want to focus on. Because i know when i accomplish that i know im going to hit. 

Being dsiengaged from aiming is not setting there in a mind numbing state thinking of nothing. It is absolutely nothing more than occupying your mind with something else other than aiming and not giving a crap what your pin does. So i build a shot process and form that gives me the best float and from there i do nothing more than think of a positive thought i created that helped my float be at its best. That could be about anything. Realease timing, constant contraction of your back muscles, getting fully relaxed.

Dont draw back and wonder why the heck my pin isnt setting still. Draw back, think about and do something you know will have a positive effect on your float and have confidence in what you built!


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## EPLC

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> I have been lurking around reading into this subject alot and im gonna throw my hat into the ring... To me doing a task subconcious is nothing more than doing somethin you have done 10,000 times without really having to think about it.... Very simple. The problem people run into is trying to do somethin subconcious before theyve ever really built a strong foundation on what their body needs to perform. I dont care if you have done it a million times if you have never broke the procedure down and built it piece by piece and learned it individually you are really wasting time.
> 
> I feel like most people (not everyone) think by just shooting thousands of arrows their body just learns and repeats.... Like a machine. When of course in reality your body can actually repeat something like that with great accuracy. Without conciously learning the particular routine that you are shooting you're going to tun into a major problem. The problem being yourself. Under any stressful pressure situation you never want to fail. So now when you draw the bow you want everything perfect form wise. So the first moment you think about getting in perfect form and never have built an actual shot process your mind goes crazy trying to think what you need to do to be in the right position. Your mind has never conciously learned how to grip the bow. Never conciously learned where that perfect consistant anchor is. So from this point your concious mind has absolutely screwed you. Now your constantly worried if everything is spot on, which leads to tension, which inturn destroys any chance you have of repeatability.
> 
> If we break our shot down piece by piece and learn everything individually over many thousands of arrows THEN we can bridge into shooting subconcious. THEN we can learn how to be "disengaged". Thats the fun part. So after building a concious repeatable shot. All we have to do then is draw back like we practiced on those many thousands of arrows and occupy our mind with a variable we have control of. Your firing engine being a perfect example. I shoot a hinge so i control my mind by rotating the release slow and smooth with my middle and ring finger. I think in my mind ONE simple thought. " steady and smooth." It is impossible to quit thinking. So put somethin in your mind that you will benefit from. If im practicing and i notice that when i get my bow arm as relaxed as it can get and i just start drilling. Thats a positive thought i want to focus on. Because i know when i accomplish that i know im going to hit.
> 
> Being dsiengaged from aiming is not setting there in a mind numbing state thinking of nothing. It is absolutely nothing more than occupying your mind with something else other than aiming and not giving a crap what your pin does. So i build a shot process and form that gives me the best float and from there i do nothing more than think of a positive thought i created that helped my float be at its best. That could be about anything. Realease timing, constant contraction of your back muscles, getting fully relaxed.
> 
> Dont draw back and wonder why the heck my pin isnt setting still. Draw back, think about and do something you know will have a positive effect on your float and have confidence in what you built!


That is a great post, thanks!


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## SonnyThomas

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> I have been lurking around reading into this subject alot and im gonna throw my hat into the ring... To me doing a task subconcious is nothing more than doing somethin you have done 10,000 times without really having to think about it.... Very simple. The problem people run into is trying to do somethin subconcious before theyve ever really built a strong foundation on what their body needs to perform. I dont care if you have done it a million times if you have never broke the procedure down and built it piece by piece and learned it individually you are really wasting time.
> 
> I feel like most people (not everyone) think by just shooting thousands of arrows their body just learns and repeats.... Like a machine. When of course in reality your body can actually repeat something like that with great accuracy. Without conciously learning the particular routine that you are shooting you're going to tun into a major problem. The problem being yourself. Under any stressful pressure situation you never want to fail. So now when you draw the bow you want everything perfect form wise. So the first moment you think about getting in perfect form and never have built an actual shot process your mind goes crazy trying to think what you need to do to be in the right position. Your mind has never conciously learned how to grip the bow. Never conciously learned where that perfect consistant anchor is. So from this point your concious mind has absolutely screwed you. Now your constantly worried if everything is spot on, which leads to tension, which inturn destroys any chance you have of repeatability.
> 
> If we break our shot down piece by piece and learn everything individually over many thousands of arrows THEN we can bridge into shooting subconcious. THEN we can learn how to be "disengaged". Thats the fun part. So after building a concious repeatable shot. All we have to do then is draw back like we practiced on those many thousands of arrows and occupy our mind with a variable we have control of. Your firing engine being a perfect example. I shoot a hinge so i control my mind by rotating the release slow and smooth with my middle and ring finger. I think in my mind ONE simple thought. " steady and smooth." It is impossible to quit thinking. So put somethin in your mind that you will benefit from. If im practicing and i notice that when i get my bow arm as relaxed as it can get and i just start drilling. Thats a positive thought i want to focus on. Because i know when i accomplish that i know im going to hit.
> 
> Being dsiengaged from aiming is not setting there in a mind numbing state thinking of nothing. It is absolutely nothing more than occupying your mind with something else other than aiming and not giving a crap what your pin does. So i build a shot process and form that gives me the best float and from there i do nothing more than think of a positive thought i created that helped my float be at its best. That could be about anything. Realease timing, constant contraction of your back muscles, getting fully relaxed.
> 
> Dont draw back and wonder why the heck my pin isnt setting still. Draw back, think about and do something you know will have a positive effect on your float and have confidence in what you built!


I'll give you :thumbs_up

Seems my application of archery is a bit different, but no different. You work something out until it's....fluid motion.


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## PSE Archer

Our mistakes are not verdicts. They need to be interpreted as guideposts to correct our actions. 

There is whatis called "the sled on the slippery slope" phenomenon. What is that you ask. As we learn a skill for the first time - right or wrong- it is embedded in our brains and that is the course that we will tend to follow. Just like fresh tracks in the snow. 

We are really good and building connections in our mind - really bad at undoing them. Sometimes we have to take what we think we know and forget about it. You have to make new tracks in the snow 

As so is archery. Think like a gardener, work like a carpenter. Spartak.


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## Lazarus

Yes it was a good post. I particularly like this;



Ky*Bowhunter said:


> It is impossible to quit thinking. So put somethin in your mind that you will benefit from.


Think about something you can benefit from............great concept.


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## Padgett

It was awesome to hear from a new voice on this subject, many of us have put in many posts and kybowhunter did a great job of touching base on many good thoughts in a nicely written post.


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## unclejane

EPLC said:


> You have now officially joined your buddy on the ignore list.


No objection. But that doesn't make you right and ron w. wrong - you're still wrong and ron w. is still right. Sorry.

I should also clarify the difference between the visual capacity and the ability to move the eyes, or other skills associated with the visual input. I'm specifically referring to the latter here. But even so, it's really kind of obvious, I think.

LS


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## ron w

no objection from me either EPLC....as a matter of fact, I encourage it


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## EPLC

unclejane said:


> Sorry, ron is right again and is giving correct advice. What you do with your eyesight is itself a motor skill - for example, learning an instrument scan in flying an aircraft on instruments (AKA IFR flight) is a skill like operating a hinge release. You have to learn it the same way you learn how to shoot a hinge: rote learning through instruction, and then consciously controlled practice until it's automated and shuttled to the subconscious. So eye movement is not different in kind from other motor skills in any essential way.
> 
> LS


With the exception of the first sentence, you agreed with me 100% and don't even know it. I can only assume this was due to your blind desire to be a contrarian... Hence the ignore list.
I spent a training weekend with George Ryles several years ago. I asked him, "how do you make minor sight corrections?"... His answer: "I don't "... So much for cognitive sight control!


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## ron w

he chooses not to, or makes a decision between making minor sight corrections or not making minor sight corrections.....that's about as cognitive as it can get. as I said, the cognitive element is what you do about what you see, not the seeing what you see. 
you keep trying and keep falling on your nose.


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## unclejane

EPLC said:


> With the exception of the first sentence, you agreed with me 100% and don't even know it. I can only assume this was due to your blind desire to be a contrarian... Hence the ignore list.
> I spent a training weekend with George Ryles several years ago. I asked him, "how do you make minor sight corrections?"... His answer: "I don't "... So much for cognitive sight control!


And you just contradicted yourself and you don't even know it. I thought I was on your ignore list, for the second time. What's wrong with it?

LS


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> he chooses not to, or makes a decision between making minor sight corrections or not making minor sight corrections.....that's about as cognitive as it can get. as I said, the cognitive element is what you do about what you see, not the seeing what you see.
> you keep trying and keep falling on your nose.


Actually you are putting words in GRIV's mouth. He didn't say or mean anything like that that at all. His point was just the opposite. Cognitive sight corrections... you can do that if you want. Let us know how that works out for you. Oh that's right, your career wasn't the world class performance you like to make it out to be. 



unclejane said:


> And you just contradicted yourself and you don't even know it. I thought I was on your ignore list, for the second time. What's wrong with it?
> 
> LS


Actually, the ignore list is working out quite well. I can peek in if I want, usually when I see smoke... or I can disregard, which I do mostly with you two. You're just upset because you agreed with me on the motor skill thing


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## unclejane

EPLC said:


> Actually, the ignore list is working out quite well. I can peek in if I want, usually when I see smoke...


In other words, your "ignore list" isn't an ignore list at all. My point being, why keep throwing these tantrums? You'd be much better served to just stick with the points of error and address those, seems to me.

LS


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## Mahly

Is the topic now who is on who's ignore list?
If you guys want to fight, do it in PMs. Not here.


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## montigre

Thanks, Mahly. The sanctimonious attitudes of late are unnecessary and becoming rather irritating to more than just me....


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## stoz

SonnyThomas said:


> I'll give you :thumbs_up
> 
> Seems my application of archery is a bit different, but no different. You work something out until it's....fluid motion.


I agree nice post.


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## Padgett

For the first time in many years I am 100% free from training my form or my shot sequence or my firing engine, I am so glad that n7709k put some pressure on me to stop training and just score. I have had a great 3 weeks of nothing but smoothing out my shot and discussing the mental side of shooting here on archery talk. Today was another conformation day for me at the range that I am on the right path because I had no choice to do anything other than shoot perfect shot executions.

I HAD NO CHOICE TO DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN SHOOT PERFECT SHOT EXECUTIONS.

In the past I have:

1. Prayed that I could have a perfect shot so that I could then try and duplicate it.

2. I have shot 15 or so crappy ones and then a perfect one would happen and it surprised me and I couldn't even tell you what was perfect about it.

3. I have shot a perfect one and failed to duplicate it thousands of times.

4. i have shot what I thought was a perfect shot because it hit the center but in fact it sucked and the execution method was a dead end street.

This list of suffering is 4 years of hard training and studying and learning that is finally starting to peak into the shooting that I always wanted to experience in my lifetime, the lessons that you need to learn are right here in the threads of archery talk and as long as a guy keeps a open mind so that he can break through the walls inside his brain then and only then can the truth smack him in the face.


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## Padgett

I just went back and read the little thought that I put into my last post where I said, "I had no choice to do anything other than shoot perfect shot executions". Right now the perfect shot executions seem to just be flowing from me over and over and all I am doing is enjoying them and also watching for the little red flags that pop up to warn me that something isn't right. For me right now the biggest issue is that I am having so many perfect executions in a row that after 40 minutes of shooting something will pop up and I am not ready for it and the shot is running so smoothly that the arrow is gone and I didn't address the issue. This is a big difference that what I had to mentally deal with in the past when I just wasn't that good, when you are a poor or average shooter every shot has a few if not many little red flags popping up during the shot and you just try and stay confident that it will work out. What I am experiencing is something totally different because absolutely nothing is popping up for 50 or 70 or 220 executions sometimes and when it does pop up I really wasn't on point to react to the issue and it slides by.

I have a feeling it is just one more thing that I need to form a back up plan for so that I can have a set approach for when that red flag does happen.


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## Mahly

Glad to here your shooting is really advancing!
Very encouraged to see it working for someone that gives as much back as you do!


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## ron w

EPLC said:


> Actually you are putting words in GRIV's mouth. He didn't say or mean anything like that that at all. His point was just the opposite. Cognitive sight corrections... you can do that if you want. Let us know how that works out for you. Oh that's right, your career wasn't the world class performance you like to make it out to be.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the ignore list is working out quite well. I can peek in if I want, usually when I see smoke... or I can disregard, which I do mostly with you two. You're just upset because you agreed with me on the motor skill thing


 do I understand that you are saying, he has no control over his sight corrections, or alignment ?.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> For the first time in many years I am 100% free from training my form or my shot sequence or my firing engine, I am so glad that n7709k put some pressure on me to stop training and just score. I have had a great 3 weeks of nothing but smoothing out my shot and discussing the mental side of shooting here on archery talk. Today was another conformation day for me at the range that I am on the right path because I had no choice to do anything other than shoot perfect shot executions.
> 
> I HAD NO CHOICE TO DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN SHOOT PERFECT SHOT EXECUTIONS.
> 
> In the past I have:
> 
> 1. Prayed that I could have a perfect shot so that I could then try and duplicate it.
> 
> 2. I have shot 15 or so crappy ones and then a perfect one would happen and it surprised me and I couldn't even tell you what was perfect about it.
> 
> 3. I have shot a perfect one and failed to duplicate it thousands of times.
> 
> 4. i have shot what I thought was a perfect shot because it hit the center but in fact it sucked and the execution method was a dead end street.
> 
> This list of suffering is 4 years of hard training and studying and learning that is finally starting to peak into the shooting that I always wanted to experience in my lifetime, the lessons that you need to learn are right here in the threads of archery talk and as long as a guy keeps a open mind so that he can break through the walls inside his brain then and only then can the truth smack him in the face.


I can truly idenify with this. Been thee, done that. Hopefully the work I'm doing as of late will turn things around, as it has for you. I have to admit I'm a little envious but at the same time happy for you that you found your way.


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## Padgett

I am excited and enjoying the shooting that I get to have each day but at the same time I really do want to continue improving and get to a new level. It seems like to me that we live with a certain amount of issues and we try and eliminate them but as soon as we get to a new level a few new ones pop up, for me right now I am to the point where I have really tightened up my execution and it is taking lots of shots for any little issues to show up so what is weird is coming up with a quick fix may take 5o or 400 shots for it to show up again before I can try my quick fix. just a year or two ago they showed up every stinking shot so it was easy to focus on fixing them.


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