# Which event produces the "real" National Champion?



## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Haven't really considered the other disciplines so no opinion there but:

Recurve = USArchery Outdoor Nationals

(I also think there is some credibility in being the top USAT member for recurve)


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Compound = Redding
Recurve = USA Outdoor Nat
Barebow = Redding


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Try to keep the answers as brief as possible.
> 
> For each discipline, in your opinion, which event is the *most prestigious*, most coveted title?
> 
> ...


Well, _that_ was a short thread!


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

The one that pays more money. Lol.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Is Louisville Trad classed as barebow?

Tough for me to answer this one but I agree with Vegas for compound.


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

For barebow the problem with Louisville Trad. is it does not allow stringwalking.
Las Vegas only has Compound Barebow were they allow Recurve Barebow to play along.

I think that limits it to the U.S. National Field Championships for barebow recurve.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Trevor, I considered that. But in my experience, the most coveted title in recurve barebow target archery in the U.S., for now, is Louisville Trad. I agree it probably SHOULD be U.S. National Field, but frankly, the depth of talent at that event hasn't equaled what it is in Louisville since I've been paying attention (about the past 13 years).

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

RECURVE-national target champion
Compound-Vegas


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this. For recurve is it the qualifying score, or the elimination round? USAA still makes the distinction.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Just to throw a monkey wrench into this. For recurve is it the qualifying score, or the elimination round? USAA still makes the distinction.


I think the qualifying round has more legitimacy than the elimination where there is lots of "luck" involved. You never ever heard someone say a guy who won a double FITA by say 65 points was "lucky to win". people have won worlds and olympics with a point total lower than those who did not medal


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Bring back the double FITA! The cream invariably will rise to the top.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Grand FITA defintely


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

I'll see your double fita and raise you eliminations but no set system.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

You talking with or without the 12" stab at Louisville??


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

For barebow I would have to say the FITA Field Championships

Why I say that? It is because the winners of that event get the opportunity to represent the US at the World FITA Field championships every two years.


Anyways, is the question really about which events represent "overall" National Championships?
or is this about which events represent the best national champions for:
Indoor Target
Outdoor Target
Field
3D

These are 4 different types of events that require 4 different types of skill sets. The best shooters will do well at all 4 of these events. But anyone can focus their life to be excellent in one of the 4 and average in the other 3. Does that make them the best? In one class yes, but overall, no.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Just to throw a monkey wrench into this. For recurve is it the qualifying score, or the elimination round? USAA still makes the distinction.


Qualifying score.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> For barebow I would have to say the FITA Field Championships
> 
> Why I say that? It is because the winners of that event get the opportunity to represent the US at the World FITA Field championships every two years.
> 
> ...


The OP was very clear in his post ... "For each discipline, in your opinion, which event is the most prestigious, most coveted title?"

I read this three times and still don't know what you're getting at. Could you expand on it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> RECURVE-national target champion
> Compound-Vegas


I hope Liz smacked you in the back of the head when she read that Jim...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

vabowdog said:


> You talking with or without the 12" stab at Louisville??


Doesn't matter. NFAA trad winner was the top dog before and since the 12" stab. 

What is your answer?


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## MIshooter (Sep 19, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Try to keep the answers as brief as possible.
> 
> For each discipline, in your opinion, which event is the *most prestigious*, most coveted title?
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

lksseven said:


> The OP was very clear in his post ... "For each discipline, in your opinion, which event is the most prestigious, most coveted title?"
> 
> I read this three times and still don't know what you're getting at. Could you expand on it?


How about a taylor series expansion?

The original OP mixed indoor and outdoor events. If one is mixing indoor and outdoor events, then one has to define what is a national champion. The OP wasn't clear because there are 4 major shooting classifications, and barebow/recurve/compound shoot in them all. 

So "expanding" on my comment is about there are specialists in any one shooting style, and because they choose to be a specialist, they do very well at it. But take them out of it, then they don't do well. How come we don't see as many outdoor, field, and 3D shooters as we do indoor events? How many indoor shooters cant shoot outdoor? I am not saying there is anything wrong with being highly skilled specialist. But how do you determine the difference between a national champion that shoots a 295 in an indoor event to a person that shoots 700 on an outdoor 70m round? 

A barebow shooter that prefers indoor will probably choose the prestigious events from Vegas or Louisville. A barebow shooter that prefers outdoor target will probably choose either the NFAA outdoor target championships (a 900 round) or the USAA National Outdoor. A barebow shooter that prefers field shooting will probably choose either the NFAA Outdoor Nationals or the USAA FITA Field championships. If a barebow shooter prefers 3D, then Redding will be high on the list. The answer to the question doesn't point to what is prestigious to crown the national champion because it is highly dependent to what the person that answers likes to shoot.

I myself prefer field shooting. I love 900 rounds for outdoor target. I suck at 3D. and Indoors is just pure torture to me. But I will do them all, and will have a different answer to the original question if I knew which of the 4 disciplines that is being thought of at the time the question gets asked.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Let me repeat:



> Try to keep the answers as brief as possible.





> Give one venue only for Compound, Recurve and Barebow (recurve).


If you want a make-believe scenario, start another thread.

This is for real-time, actual events in play today.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Let me repeat:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, you are confusing trad and barebow, There is a world of difference. At this time, the most prestigious tournament of the year for recurve barebow is the USA field championships. Barebow at Louisville was won with a compound and stringwalking.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Barebow (recurve)


From my original post.

It's not that hard.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> From my original post.
> 
> It's not that hard.


Actually John, you make it really hard. Your condescending attitude might work well for the sheeple who hang on your every word but if you want intelligent answers, you really must ask intelligent questions. Trad is worlds removed from recurve barebow, whether you use the WA definition or the NFAA definition. A recurve barebower cannot compete in the trad division without giving up several aspects of his or her discipline. The Nfaa Indoor nationals is such a prestigious event that I never attended during my prime in the 70s and 80s and 90s. There are at least 5 outdoor tournaments that are more prestigious to barebow shooters than The NFAA indoor championships. Come out and play with the barebow guys sometime and you would get a feel for what is important to them. 

Compound= Nfaa outdoor field
Recurve= odd years-Target Nationals, even years-USA field championship
Recurve barebow=Tie between USA field nationals and Redding.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Try to keep the answers as brief as possible.
> 
> For each discipline, in your opinion, *which event is the most prestigious, most coveted title*?
> 
> ...


To me, one does not necessarily beget the other. I agree that Vegas is probably the most coveted Compound venue but I disagree that it results in a true National Champion. I think that a true champion is someone who comes thru the melee and ends up on top regardless of whether or not they are pros or amateurs. None of the current venues allows side-by-side competition, mixing the pros with the Joes, except the US Archery Outdoor. How can any one venue claim to have a true National Champion when 80% of the field is excluded from attaining that title? And since all venues accept applications from all nationalities, who would be the US National Champion if another country wins the competition? 

I'm no Broadwater, Starnes or Wilde but I believe I can hold my own against some who claim to be pros and who pay the fees to play with the big boys. For there to be a true National Champion there can be no separation based on status, there has to be an even playing field...even the 64th seed of the NCAA basketball tournament has a chance at the crown. But to get there they have to run the gauntlet of games not just the first one...


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I agree mostly with itbeso as to venues:

Compound--NFAA Field Nationals

Recurve--odd years-USA Target Nationals, even years-USA Field Championships

Recurve barebow/Trad--NFAA Redding.


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## Spider-Assassin (Jan 31, 2012)

Q: Which event produces the "real" National Champion? 

A: The CrossFit Games

...carry on.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John, if standing on level ground shooting a 3" circle 20 yards away produces the real BB champion...you've lived a very sheltered life.

Dewayne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

vabowdog said:


> John, if standing on level ground shooting a 3" circle 20 yards away produces the real BB champion...you've lived a very sheltered life.
> 
> Dewayne


Hey Dewayne, instead of choosing to go after me personally (you must be taking lessons from Ben), how about sticking to the question, or just not answering at all.

It doesn't take much courage to criticize others instead of offering your own opinion. 

Offer yours up so others can take shots at you, if you care to. Otherwise, just move along.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh, as for my "sheltered life" - again, like Ben, you clearly have no clue as to my history in archery. Whether he, or you, wish to believe it or not, I was shooting NFAA field and hunter rounds in the 70's and 80's, then 3-D rounds so long ago, they were "2D" flat foam animals, and I won my first 3D championship at the age of 20 with a 65# wood Assenheimer recurve. But those are inconvenient truths to some.

I'd say there's a pretty good chance I've shot recurve barebow longer than you have, and perhaps even more years than Ben. But if one wishes to just snipe and criticize, then facts seldom prevent that behavior.

Carry on.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

And people wonder why barebow archers are relegated to field events or the margins of major events.

I ask a simple question, and the only ugly comments made are by two of the most well-known barebow archers in the U.S.

Talk about taking the foot out of the mouth to shoot it.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John take a break..I wasn't criticizing you, just disagreeing with your post about BB. Seems like you're the one on the defensive.


Dewayne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> you've lived a very sheltered life


Nah. Not at all Dewayne. 

What was the point of your post? 

How hard would it have been to just say which event you thought was the Nat. Championship?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> How about a taylor series expansion?
> 
> The original OP mixed indoor and outdoor events. If one is mixing indoor and outdoor events, then one has to define what is a national champion. The OP wasn't clear because there are 4 major shooting classifications, and barebow/recurve/compound shoot in them all.
> 
> ...


"The original OP mixed indoor and outdoor events." 
No, the OP didn't 'mix' indoor and outdoor events to arrive at one champion, he _listed_ both indoor and outdoor events so that the responses would be inclusive of the champions of both indoor and outdoor venues.

"But how do you determine the difference between a national champion that shoots a 295 in an indoor event to a person that shoots 700 on an outdoor 70m round?"

There is no difference - they're both national champions (now, if you want to argue who was better, Chuck Norris or Mohammed Ali, that's a different thread). The same way that two track runners, a 100meter guy and a 1mile guy, who win the Olympic Games are both Olympic Champions. Who would be asking which one of those two is the 'real' champion?

For all you ex wrestlers out there, what really gets at the nut of John's question, I think, would be the analogous question "Which freestyle wrestling title in the world is the *most prestigious*, the one that would signify that to the people in the know that this winner is the king of kings? Most wrestlers wouldn't say the Olympics, or the World Championships, but rather the Tbilisi tournament in the Soviet Union, where the winners receive the fabled Russian Sable and are acknowledged to have beaten the toughest collection of wrestlers in one place on the planet (primarily because the Russians would enter more than one of their wrestlers at each weight). Probably very similar to how a lot of people might consider winning the Korean National Outdoor Archery Target Championships to be more prestigious than the Olympic Games.

The OP asks "For each discipline, in your opinion, which event is the most prestigious, most coveted title?", 

and your inclination is to answer with a taylor series launch (I had to look up what the heck a Taylor Series expansion was, by the way)?

(e.g. 
Definition:
The Taylor series of a real or complex-valued function ƒ(x) that is infinitely differentiable at a real or complex number a is the power series

f(a)+\frac {f'(a)}{1!} (x-a)+ \frac{f''(a)}{2!} (x-a)^2+\frac{f'''(a)}{3!}(x-a)^3+ \cdots. 
which can be written in the more compact sigma notation as

\sum_{n=0} ^ {\infty} \frac {f^{}(a)}{n!} \, (x-a)^{n}
where n! denotes the factorial of n and ƒ (a) denotes the nth derivative of ƒ evaluated at the point a. The derivative of order zero of ƒ is defined to be ƒ itself and (x − a)0 and 0! are both defined to be 1. When a = 0, the series is also called a Maclaurin series).

Sorry, John, I'm off topic.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Sorry, John, I'm off topic.


Hey, at least you didn't jump in to tell me how stupid or naive I am for having my own opinion. LOL.

But then again, you're not known as one who searches for those opportunities either.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Hey, at least you didn't jump in to tell me how stupid or naive I am for having my own opinion. LOL.
> 
> But then again, you're not known as one who searches for those opportunities either.


It's just that I don't get many opportunities (as in 'zero') to bring up the Tbilisi Tournament in conversation, and I couldn't resist. I guess Mr. Roboto feels the same way about the Taylor Series Expansion, so he and I are equally guilty.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Compound - Vegas
Oly - Target
BB Recurve/NFAA Trad - Redding or USA Field

Redding challenges the BB archer much more with varying yardages from 3 to 101, and many different sidehill, uphill or downhill shots.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Field challenges Oly shooters much more than lobbing 72 arrows at 70m. But the event everyone looks to for Oly recurve is Outdoor Target Nationals.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

montigre said:


> I agree mostly with itbeso as to venues:
> 
> Compound--NFAA Field Nationals
> 
> ...


recurve (OLYMPIC) field nationals? really? How many people compete at that (and this is coming from a guy whose only national medal was at field nationals)


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Hey Dewayne, instead of choosing to go after me personally (you must be taking lessons from Ben), how about sticking to the question, or just not answering at all.
> 
> It doesn't take much courage to criticize others instead of offering your own opinion.
> 
> ...


Yes, Dwayne, how dare you disagree with the master. By the way, you did offer an opinion but, it was summarily dismissed, as John is wont to do when anyone disagrees with his take on things. I think you and I need to not address any of Johns' posts because we lend too much credence to him when we do. You and I are most of the reason barebow is relegated to the backrooms.LOL. The forum is all yours John.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jim C said:


> recurve (OLYMPIC) field nationals? really? How many people compete at that (and this is coming from a guy whose only national medal was at field nationals)


Brady Ellison, Jake Kaminski, Vic Wunderle, Joe McGlynn, to name a few. Where have you been lately? You should go to the NFAA Indoor Nationals, there is a good chance you would win a medal there with all the classes and age divisions available.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Brady Ellison, Jake Kaminski, Vic Wunderle, Joe McGlynn, to name a few. Where have you been lately? You should go to the NFAA Indoor Nationals, there is a good chance you would win a medal there with all the classes and age divisions available.


I have been to the NFAA Indoors mainly as a coach for years. And while field was my favorite event before I started having back issues, the fact is, it does not draw all the top recurve archers and never has. Not at the world level, not at the national level. I don't know who you are but that is a rather silly comment you made to me. the fact is, the field team-save for compound men, has never been the top archers in the country down at the third position. One of my students made the ladies recurve team last year. She's a very good archer who shot over 1100 at the indoor nationals. But she's no Jenny Hardy or Khatuna.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Brady Ellison, Jesse and Ben Rogers... I think that pretty much adds up to the top to me? That was the last 3 gentleman to represent the US in the team event in Croatia.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

rsarns said:


> Brady Ellison, Jesse and Ben Rogers... I think that pretty much adds up to the top to me? That was the last 3 gentleman to represent the US in the team event in Croatia.


how many of the top 15 recurve archers on the USAT ranking list attend the world field trials for men and women?

how many will attend the world target championship trials


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

you guys sound like a bunch of 12 year old girls. When the trad guys decided to descend upon the FITA forum, it has become just like the trad forum was, nothing but condescension and bickering. I had to clean house there and I will do it here, if needed. This was a quiet, respectful forum until all the barebowers showed up. 

This is hard to say but the trad forum is actually a nicer place.

Grow up.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jim C said:


> how many of the top 15 recurve archers on the USAT ranking list attend the world field trials for men and women?
> 
> how many will attend the world target championship trials


Jim, I listed the recurvers who attended last years Field championships. I think it is fair to say they are all among the top 10 recurvers in this country. You and I both know that there are way too many tournaments during the year for a person to attend all, so, we all must choose those that best match our interests at the time. Times are changing and I see a big increased interest in field among the top archers in each style of shooting. The only one that has not been delivering the goods lately has been womens barebow and that is fixing to change with the current group of ladies that have joined the barebow field and hopefully, ex World field champion Rebecca Nelson Harris healthy enough to compete again. Compared to as little as 4 years ago, the USA field teams are , as a whole, very strong on the international scene. The reality is that archers tend to gravitate toward the type of competition that they are best at. A few, like Jesse Broadwater, Brady Ellison, Dave Cousins, Steve Anderson, Alan Eagleton, John Demmer, myself, Heather Koehl, Jake Kaminski and others do crossovers into all types of competitions because they are all fun and these people like to test their skills on many fronts. Whatever a persons preference, it's all good with a bow in your hand.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Pretty sure John envited all the Barebow coments by starting the Barebow thds. So if you are going to clean house get it done.


target1 said:


> you guys sound like a bunch of 12 year old girls. When the trad guys decided to descend upon the FITA forum, it has become just like the trad forum was, nothing but condescension and bickering. I had to clean house there and I will do it here, if needed. This was a quiet, respectful forum until all the barebowers showed up.
> 
> This is hard to say but the trad forum is actually a nicer place.
> 
> Grow up.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Pretty sure John envited all the Barebow coments by starting the Barebow thds. So if you are going to clean house get it done.


Yep..... I think the comments by a mod here are way out of line. Except for a few comments, most of this and other threads have been very good exchanges of ideas.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

I know nothing about compound or recurve and not that much about barebow. However, I think Lancaster is the indoor venue that brings in the best competition for barebow recurve shooters. I've only been shooting for a year but from what I've seen this seems to be true. 

I wouldn't call the winner a "National Champion" but to win that tournament shooting head to head with a lot of the best recurve barebow archers in the country attending (Dewayne Martin, Mark Lynde, John Demmer, Jim Powell, Alan Eagleton, Calvin Smock, Ben Rogers, Jen Stoner, Jared Neal, etc..) all shooting in the same class means a lot. 

Vegas is great and may be even more difficult to win shooting against compounds but it's not a barebow recurve event. Louisville is good as well but everyone is split up in 5 or 6 different classes.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Having shot just about everything, I would tend to lean towards us field champs as the ultimate barebow recurve tournament. It takes a great well rounded barebow recurve shooter to win it. It takes judging yardage, judging cuts, shooting on slopes, shooting side hills, shooting in the weather conditions that are given, knowing how to get a well tuned bow together for all the crawls, oh yeah, and being proficient in your crawls. That being said, we need to recruit more and more top barebow shooters to this event. Other than the trial years, it's hard to get shooters to go to this event. I think this takes the most well rounded shooter to win, and that's why this would get my vote.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

WA Field for Barebow
USA Target for Compound/Recurve

-Grant


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Jim, I listed the recurvers who attended last years Field championships. I think it is fair to say they are all among the top 10 recurvers in this country. You and I both know that there are way too many tournaments during the year for a person to attend all, so, we all must choose those that best match our interests at the time. Times are changing and I see a big increased interest in field among the top archers in each style of shooting. The only one that has not been delivering the goods lately has been womens barebow and that is fixing to change with the current group of ladies that have joined the barebow field and hopefully, ex World field champion Rebecca Nelson Harris healthy enough to compete again. Compared to as little as 4 years ago, the USA field teams are , as a whole, very strong on the international scene. The reality is that archers tend to gravitate toward the type of competition that they are best at. A few, like Jesse Broadwater, Brady Ellison, Dave Cousins, Steve Anderson, Alan Eagleton, John Demmer, myself, Heather Koehl, Jake Kaminski and others do crossovers into all types of competitions because they are all fun and these people like to test their skills on many fronts. Whatever a persons preference, it's all good with a bow in your hand.


I love field. Food poisoning back in 04 knocked me out of contention for that team at the trials at Don Casteels. I sponsored field shooters going to the worlds. Ask Doug Pritchett, Aya, Chelsea Obrebski, etc., But sadly its not the biggest deal to recurve olympic archers in the USA, so I cannot say the US field (USA) championships are the real national champion determination in the USA.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think that the best Compound Shooter in the world is the current Vegas Champion. I think the best Trad Recurve Shooter is the current NFAA National's Champion. No wind, no rain, no excuses, same playing field for everyone - best score wins. For compounds the unforgiving nature of Vegas with the small 10 ring weeds out the best in a hurry. The NFAA target is a little more forgiving and is a better target for unsighted recurves in my opinion.

I like these shoots because it is easy to compare my scores to the best scores shot at those events. The rounds are standard, the same for everyone around the world. The outside stuff (other than 3D) is nearly non-existent in my area and I have no desire to fly across the country to do it. 3D's are also very difficult to assess one's ability - you can judge on how you did against the competition but that's about it. They are fun to do, but I do not think the best shooter always wins. So for pure shooting talent the games above get my vote.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Demmer said:


> Having shot just about everything, I would tend to lean towards us field champs as the ultimate barebow recurve tournament. It takes a great well rounded barebow recurve shooter to win it. It takes judging yardage, judging cuts, shooting on slopes, shooting side hills, shooting in the weather conditions that are given, knowing how to get a well tuned bow together for all the crawls, oh yeah, and being proficient in your crawls. That being said, we need to recruit more and more top barebow shooters to this event. Other than the trial years, it's hard to get shooters to go to this event. I think this takes the most well rounded shooter to win, and that's why this would get my vote.


This sounds great, but the nearest field range is 6 hours away. Not that I would be a top contender, but it is just not in the cards to even be able to practice at a range to have any idea what I could do. I think that not having a field course in the area is pretty common.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

centershot said:


> I think that the best Compound Shooter in the world is the current Vegas Champion. I think the best Trad Recurve Shooter is the current NFAA National's Champion. No wind, no rain, no excuses, same playing field for everyone - best score wins. For compounds the unforgiving nature of Vegas with the small 10 ring weeds out the best in a hurry. The NFAA target is a little more forgiving and is a better target for unsighted recurves in my opinion.
> 
> I like these shoots because it is easy to compare my scores to the best scores shot at those events. The rounds are standard, the same for everyone around the world. The outside stuff (other than 3D) is nearly non-existent in my area and I have no desire to fly across the country to do it. 3D's are also very difficult to assess one's ability - you can judge on how you did against the competition but that's about it. They are fun to do, but I do not think the best shooter always wins. So for pure shooting talent the games above get my vote.


Tough to say "best in the world" as these are mainly North American events. If you want to be the best barebow shooter in the world, you need to get past the Swedes first.
I think WA field is the best test, if you win those events you have a claim at being the best.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Pretty sure John envited all the Barebow coments by starting the Barebow thds. So if you are going to clean house get it done.


Gary, are you kidding? 

I invited (not "envited") comments on* all three* disciplines. It's telling that only the barebow archers can't behave like adults. Same reason I left the Leatherbrawl years ago and spent my time here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> Having shot just about everything, I would tend to lean towards us field champs as the ultimate barebow recurve tournament. It takes a great well rounded barebow recurve shooter to win it. It takes judging yardage, judging cuts, shooting on slopes, shooting side hills, shooting in the weather conditions that are given, knowing how to get a well tuned bow together for all the crawls, oh yeah, and being proficient in your crawls. That being said, we need to recruit more and more top barebow shooters to this event. Other than the trial years, it's hard to get shooters to go to this event. I think this takes the most well rounded shooter to win, and that's why this would get my vote.


You make a strong argument. I think over the past few years, the crown may have passed from Louisville to Nat. Field, so long as the participation stays up. It's tough to call an event a true "championship" when only 4 or 5 top archers show up though. Louisville has a deep field. Lancasters did as well, but until we all agree on the same set of rules, it will always be a novelty (money) shoot.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Wasn't aimed at you John I didn't like the Mod's comments about Trad Barebow. I have read silly comment from all types not just Barebow


limbwalker said:


> Gary, are you kidding?
> 
> I invited (not "envited") comments on* all three* disciplines. It's telling that only the barebow archers can't behave like adults. Same reason I left the Leatherbrawl years ago and spent my time here.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

John not to Diminish in any way you're superior indoor wins they are second to none. I agree it takes a well rounded archer to win a field shoot. Totally agree weather it be USA Fita,NFAA, field or NFAA Redding 3d. You should come and shoot Bigfoot this year another great shoot to add to your Accomplishments.


Demmer said:


> Having shot just about everything, I would tend to lean towards us field champs as the ultimate barebow recurve tournament. It takes a great well rounded barebow recurve shooter to win it. It takes judging yardage, judging cuts, shooting on slopes, shooting side hills, shooting in the weather conditions that are given, knowing how to get a well tuned bow together for all the crawls, oh yeah, and being proficient in your crawls. That being said, we need to recruit more and more top barebow shooters to this event. Other than the trial years, it's hard to get shooters to go to this event. I think this takes the most well rounded shooter to win, and that's why this would get my vote.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The National Championships for each discipline should be the event with the strongest field, regardless of the format. Shooting on flat ground or hills makes no difference. Does an archer who finishes 10th at a field event among 20 have more pride in that achievement than finishing 75th in a field of 150 at US Outdoor Nationals?

It's the depth of the field of competitors that makes an event a National Championship event.

I agree that field is a worthy challenge for a barebow archer. It's a challenge for ANY archer regardless of discipline. But typically our field events have the least depth.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

If that's what you think makes a National Chapionship then I think Lancaster fits the definition more than any other event. 

What other event to you have 40+ Barebow Recurve archers competing against each other in the same class?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hammer, it may well become that. But a first year event will never enjoy that kind of status. Maybe if there are still 40+ in the 4th or 5th year, it will be. We can hope so.

We need one set of rules, and one event to step up. If that's it, then so be it. 

I think the fact that most of the discussion and debate between the three disciplines has surrounded barebow, just further illustrates the questions and uncertainty that I hope finds some focus soon.

Sounds to me like Vegas is considered the most important event in the U.S. for compounders, and US Outdoor Nationals, for recurve.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

There is a lot of money to be made at Vegas for compounders. I don't think there is another shoot in the world that has as big a total payout to all of the money winners in the various compound classes. Money is the draw. Nothing wrong with that. If big cash payouts draw the most and deepest best of the best crowds in compounds then that is great. It will crown the best 20 yard shooter.

For recurve the US Outdoor Nationals is the obvious favorite. It is a mandatory event for anyone that has a dream of being on the US Olympic team. If the US Outdoor nationals wasn't part of the selection process for the USAT or Olympic team, how many people will show up? Suddenly the Texas Shootout, Arizona Cup, SoCal, Gator Cup, etc will become the favorites. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone that has dreams of making the USAT/Olympic team needs to spend a lot of time shooting the style and shooting against the best of that class to get better at that class. A recurve shooter's ability to shoot indoor, field, or 3D will have zero impact on their ability to make the Olympic team, so why spend the time and energy to be good at them. Though the top shooters are good at them. But you don't see too many of the average shooters shooting them.

The Barebow-Recurve and Trad shooters is more driven by the individual's preference, 3D, Indoor, WA Outdoor Target, 900 rounds, Safari rounds, Field rounds. This is really more of a personal preference on the overall shooting style.

There is a strong consensus that Vegas is for the Compounders, and US National Outdoor Target for Recurve (oly), but for the Barebow-Recurve/Trad shooter, there is a wide variety of answers. And because each one requires a different set of skills to be proficient at them, there will always be an argument as to which one produces the best Barebow-Recurve/Trad shooter.

It would be great if there wasn't a Barebow-Recurve versus Trad shooter argument because of the rule differences and the discussions just focused on Barebow-Recurve.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't see anywhere in the Olympic Trials Process that Outdoor Nationals is a requirement. Sure hope it's not.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It's not.

It's only "Mandatory" for the USAT, and even then, not always.

I've never shot US Outdoor Nationals. I've coached at that event many times, but I've never shot it. Not even in 2004. Vic and I and one of the ladies chose to sit out and stay home to train for Athens. I went to Turkey but didn't shoot Outdoor Nationals. I know it may jeapordize my spot on the 2005 USAT, but they decided to make an exception that year for the Olympic team members since it was so close to when we were leaving for Athens. 



> For recurve the US Outdoor Nationals is the obvious favorite. It is a mandatory event for anyone that has a dream of being on the US Olympic team. If the US Outdoor nationals wasn't part of the selection process for the USAT or Olympic team, how many people will show up?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> And because each one requires a different set of skills to be proficient at them, there will always be an argument as to which one produces the best Barebow-Recurve/Trad shooter


This country needs a clear national championship event for barebow recurve IMO.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I agree that field is a worthy challenge for a barebow archer. It's a challenge for ANY archer regardless of discipline. But typically our field events have the least depth.


This is my issue with Field being 'The' tournament to win. Field courses are few and far in between in the Northwest. 3D has the largest number of competitors, but I find it to be the poorest format to determine who is the best.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> There is a lot of money to be made at Vegas for compounders. I don't think there is another shoot in the world that has as big a total payout to all of the money winners in the various compound classes. Money is the draw. Nothing wrong with that. If big cash payouts draw the most and deepest best of the best crowds in compounds then that is great. It will crown the best 20 yard shooter.
> 
> For recurve the US Outdoor Nationals is the obvious favorite. It is a mandatory event for anyone that has a dream of being on the US Olympic team. If the US Outdoor nationals wasn't part of the selection process for the USAT or Olympic team, how many people will show up? Suddenly the Texas Shootout, Arizona Cup, SoCal, Gator Cup, etc will become the favorites. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone that has dreams of making the USAT/Olympic team needs to spend a lot of time shooting the style and shooting against the best of that class to get better at that class. A recurve shooter's ability to shoot indoor, field, or 3D will have zero impact on their ability to make the Olympic team, so why spend the time and energy to be good at them. Though the top shooters are good at them. But you don't see too many of the average shooters shooting them.
> 
> ...


Do you shoot at US Outdoor Nationals? I doubt it - if you did, your description and observations of both the elite shooters and the average participants would likely be very different from the above hypothesis.

US Outdoor Nats is not a mandatory participation event in order to shoot in the Olympic Trials. Many hundreds of people show up to shoot US Outdoor Nationals, 90something% of whom likely have no idea what USAT is or any intention of pursuing a USAT berth. Every archer I know who shoots Outdoor Nationals also shoots indoor tournaments - every one of them. That goes for the other tournaments you mentioned, too. And without fail, the top two handfulls of finishers of these Outdoor Target Recurve tournaments are also the top Indoor finishers, as well as the top finishers of Olympic recurve Field tournaments.

Many, many, many, many average shooters are shooting every year at every venue of every type of recurve event. 

Finally, here are the top 10 Olympic recurve finishers of 2014 Outdoor, Field, and Indoor ... it's like the top finishers are all joined at the hip ... good in one venue, good in the other venues... they can hold a 9" spot at 70meters but somehow can't manage a 3" spot at 18meters? Good shooters are good shooters, with or without a roof, and with or without trees.
Outdoor ... Brady Ellison, Kaminski, Zach Garrett, Sean McLaughlin, Klimitchek, Wukie, Cusick, Fanchin, Johnson, Anderson, McGlyn
Field ... Ellison, Wunderle, Kaminski, McGlyn, Butemeyer, Baldowski, Adjutant, 
Indoor ... Wukie, Wunderle, Klimitchek, Johnson, McGlyn, D McLaughlin, Butemeyer, Raby, Anderson, S McLaughlin, Kaminski


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## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

centershot said:


> This is my issue with Field being 'The' tournament to win. Field courses are few and far in between in the Northwest. 3D has the largest number of competitors, but I find it to be the poorest format to determine who is the best.


I'm kind of in the same situation, we have field courses but only one tournament locally. I read about the new USAA outreach program and look forward to how that works.

I think one of the biggest issues with barebow is that alot of folks confused it with Trad.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Indoor Compound Vegas face - Vegas
Indoor Compound 5-spot - NFAA Nationals
Compound 3D - ASA Pro SOY

Outdoor targets - Redding Trail shoot. I do NOT have a strong sense of feel for this area. It just seems that the Redding shoots draw more top archers than even the NFAA's outdoor nationals.


I think the ASA's Pro SOY is the best, that I know of, for defining a "national" champion. Some other titles are actually just a single tournament title.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I think one of the biggest issues with barebow is that alot of folks confused it with Trad.


Yup.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

High Plains said:


> I think one of the biggest issues with barebow is that alot of folks confused it with Trad.


How can that be? Barebow archers can actually hit the target


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bigjono said:


> How can that be? Barebow archers can actually hit the target


Oh boy...


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## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

Bigjono said:


> How can that be? Barebow archers can actually hit the target


:thumbs_up


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

lksseven said:


> Do you shoot at US Outdoor Nationals? I doubt it - if you did, your description and observations of both the elite shooters and the average participants would likely be very different from the above hypothesis.


Well to answer your question: Nope, Barebow hasn't exactly been a welcomed style in the past. They even kicked the Traditional National Championships out of state that used to be the weekend before the Outdoor Nationals. That was the year I was planning on coming because I was going to shoot both with the same bow. It is a very expensive tournament to go to to shoot for only 2 days - no team or eliminations rounds for barebow. Anyways, that looks to be changing for this year which makes it really exciting to come.

Anyways, I will have to apologize for my incorrect comments about the Outdoor Nationals being part of the Olympic Trials. I blindly regurgitated what I was told by some local Oly shooters about the process to get on the Olympic team. I figured they would know more about it because it is what they want to do. Oh well, egg on my face. I apologize.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I blindly regurgitated what I was told by some local Oly shooters about the process to get on the Olympic team.


It's not just local shooters that don't understand the process, but many coaches as well. I know some pretty highly qualified coaches, shooters and parents that still believe their kid has to make JDT to have a shot. LOL.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I blindly regurgitated what I was told by some local Oly shooters about the process to get on the Olympic team. I figured they would know more about it because it is what they want to do.



Olympic trials is open to any US citizen archer who wants to come out and shoot the first tournament. After that, if you make the first cut of top 16, then 8, then 3, you must shoot a minimum qualifying score. Most of the top 16 will do that at the first trials. It is not difficult. 

after the first trials, the second two trials are closed to everyone except those who have made previous cut. 

US Outdoor Nationals is a mandatory requirement for making the USAT team and with the other USAT regional tournaments, are what get you ranked in the rolling ranking system nationally. The top 8 of the rolling rank is where you want to be. 

That is the important bit. The rolling rank is used to pick the teams that go to the Outdoor world cup tournaments, international tournaments etc.

World team , Olympic team, etc all have an open tournament trials where anyone can win a spot. You can have never shot a USAT qualifier or national championship, yet still make an olympic team. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The "unspoken" effect of making the top 16 is that you then become subject to the USOC's rules and random drug testing. That means you have to fill out athlete location forms telling them where you are every single minute of every single day, for as long as you are in the "pool" of eligible athletes. It's truly one of the biggest, most intrusive PITA I've ever encountered, and I do bureaucratic paperwork for a living. It's the reason I have "retired" twice now. Because if they come looking for you and they cannot find you (imagine that, not finding a wildlife refuge manager in his office...?!?), it's considered a missed test. Two missed tests equal a failed test. So you can see why it's a PITA for anyone, but especially someone who is not always somewhere they can be found by people in suits.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

The notion of the "real" national champion in the title of this thread in itself implies that the accomplishments of those who do not participate in a certain event, are somehow viewed as less accomplished. It's not about what we think on this site, it's only about who wins that day at the event of their choosing. It's not any more complicated than that, as everyone has the same opportunity to compete in anything they want, in any organization they want. Obviously some people feel that an IBO World Championship in Trad is not as "prestigious" or earned as say, someone in an NFAA Field or WA event. The point is is doesn't matter, the person who shoots the best at any event is given the title. So with that, I participate in IBO and ASA events, I would like to expand into some other areas in the future as well, but that doesn't mean success in one organization transfers to another. We should all be thankful there are so many options and opportunities for everyone. 

I see Ben Rogers was banned, while some may not agree with his blunt form of communicating, he is a treasure of information related to Barebow. That man has been there and done that as it relates to barebow, longer than most have been alive. It's not my place to criticize the mods for doing what they've been trusted to do, but if the intent here is to grow participation, and communication, then why silence one of the best? Because someone doesn't agree? Another thing, this "FITA forum" and those "TRAD" guys is not helping either. I thought we were all on the same team? Why is one member here allowed to speak freely, and act in a condescending manner with no accountability? I'm out.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Great questions Moose I agree. And for those who think its easier to win at IBO Trad Worlds than NFAA or USA Fita field. All I can say is they haven't been to the at Trad worlds yet twice as much competition and twice as hard to win.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't think there is any doubt the level of competition at many 3D events is often higher for barebow and traditional archers than it is at target events. Sheer numbers would create that. 

I truly enjoyed the years I shot 3D, but at least in my head, I separate target and 3D archery as two very different things. As different as field is from outdoor target or indoors. Very different types of competitions.

For the purposes of the thread and the question I asked, I am referring to target recurve barebow. I'm not familiar enough with IBO or ASA to know how great the competition is for target recurve barebow equipment at those events. I'm more familiar with that equipment as it relates to our target archery organizations (USArchery and NFAA).

Moose, I understand exactly what you're saying, however the fans of archery and many of the archers themselves, all have a particular event they consider the most "prestigious." I'm sure you do as well. It's probably the one you would most want to win.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Every event that I've ever been to has been hard to win or even place..from the pressure,weather,nerves whatever...every event has it's own set of challenges...for the ones saying that one event is more or less probably haven't been to that event, you've got to give credit to that event.


Dewayne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dewayne, you're right. But I'm just asking folks to pick one. There are no wrong answers here. We each have our favorites.

As an archer, I've been to US Indoor Nationals (both Oly. and barebow), several USAT ranking events, NFAA Indoor Nationals (both Oly. and trad), Vegas and more than one invitational event where Olympic and top compound shooters were invited to shoot for money. I've coached teams of archers at many US Outdoor Nationals, and will shoot my first Outdoor Nat's this summer as a barebow archer. 

I certainly have my opinions about which one of those is the most prestigious. For example, I don't know of a single Olympic style archer who would put NFAA indoor nationals ahead of Vegas or Outdoor Nationals, including the archers who have won them. This is not to put down any one archer. A win is a win, period. But let's not pretend that some wins aren't "bigger" than others in the broader sense of things.

We all have our ideas of which are the most prestigious. No harm in sharing.

If the idea of a single event doesn't work, then - comparing it to golf - what are our four "majors?" 

I mean, the Players Championship is considered a very high level win, but it's still not a Major, and the majors are what top golfer's careers are defined by.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Mo0se said:


> I see Ben Rogers was banned, while some may not agree with his blunt form of communicating, he is a treasure of information related to Barebow. That man has been there and done that as it relates to barebow, longer than most have been alive. It's not my place to criticize the mods for doing what they've been trusted to do, but if the intent here is to grow participation, and communication, then why silence one of the best? Because someone doesn't agree? Another thing, this "FITA forum" and those "TRAD" guys is not helping either. I thought we were all on the same team? Why is one member here allowed to speak freely, and act in a condescending manner with no accountability? I'm out.


Oh wow, Ben got banned? I can't believe it

I guess I am next


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Well, I deleted my post after seeing he did get banned.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John, all the years that I've been shooting in my little circle of archers (local) Vegas was always the one to win...however when you're thinking on a grander scale of course it would be Olympics...I've always looked up to Vic and Brady for their shooting ability and determination to produce a great shot under almost any circumstance.

So for me the ultimate would be Olympics but for BB it's Vegas.

Dewayne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Fair enough. I have trouble wrapping my mind around a barebow definition that includes compounds, but maybe I shouldn't since I was the one who argued for the inclusion (on equal footing) of Genesis bows in our TSAA barebow division, and clearly you and others have proven that the compound offers no real significant advantage in barebow (although we limit them to bows with no draw stop in TSAA events, since that is one advantage compounds have over recurves).

If the Olympics are your "ultimate" then I hope you're training for September because you may be shooting the best of your life right now. I'd love to see you and John and Ben all show up and give it a go. There would definitely be some regulars who would be wondering "where the heck did THESE guys come from?"


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