# PSE Optima or Samick Lavita.. NEED HELP!!



## JoeM (Mar 31, 2003)

I would chose the samick over the PSE optima. The Samick is a better quality starter bow.

Both bows accept normal archery sights rest stablizers.


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## tacoben (Jun 24, 2004)

Boy, they certainly do look the same!! 

I have the PSE Optima and have no complaints with it, except for the sight window, which is a tad bit short if you need to set your sight pin up for short distance shooting. I put on some after market KAP Suprise Limbs on the Optima riser to get the bow to 68 inches and use it mainly as a barebow. The other downside is that the limb poundage max out at 35 lbs.

If I were you, for the amount your gonna pay, you can get a second hand Hoyt GM with interchangeble limbs (so you can go pass 35 lbs). I was able to aquire a GM, in mint condition, from e-bay about a 2 years ago for $150, and that has been my primary target recurve bow since.


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## menaztricks (Apr 2, 2006)

Also, if you might want to consider one of the KAP risers that have ILF pockets. You can get the Evolution II and Evolution limbs for about $190 shipped from altservices. http://www.altservices.biz/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00459.3.1269184064464034267 Thats just a little more than the optima and gives you more options for limbs etc.. when you need to upgrade. I was going to buy the optima myself but decided on KAP.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

The PSE does have a very short sight window. Also there is very little clearance on the bow. So shooting arrows with plastic vanes or spin wings simply does not work well. Spin wings come off too easily because of the pounding they take leaving the bow. If you shoot plastic vanes you will find vane marks on the bow for sure. We finally gave up and have the JOAD kids shooting feathers on their arrows and it works much better. Also you will have to throw away the string that comes with it. I have not seen a string come with one of these bows that is the right length, they are all too short.

I think that Tacoben hit it right on the head. If you can try getting a Hoyt off of Ebay and it will grow as you get stronger and better form, since you can purchase limbs as you go.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

Ignore everyone else and listen to me.

Keep taking classes and renting bows. Let the (capable) coach tell you when it's time to get a bow.


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## menaztricks (Apr 2, 2006)

Why would anyone keep throwing their money away on rentals. Wether he gets the Optima, a GM or a $50 cheapo one, if he ever wants to sell them he has that option. Sure, he wont get as much as he paid for them but something is better than nothing. He cant make any rental money back ever, its money down the drain.


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## menaztricks (Apr 2, 2006)

Why would anyone keep throwing their money away on rentals. Wether he gets the Optima, a GM or a $50 cheapo one, if he ever wants to sell them he has that option. Sure, he wont get as much as he paid for them but something is better than nothing. He cant make any rental money back ever, its money down the drain.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

Most places rent it fairly cheaply, some don't charge at all. Chances are he'd save money if he works his way up through the house bows than if he buys 20lb limbs off the bat and has to replace them.

well, that and optimas suck.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

I would disagree with you Miles. Here are the following reasons.

1) there should be a siren that goes off in the shop when the cost of rental excedes the cost of the bow. Its like a house. why rent when you can put a downpayment and just pay it off? I mean, in the end you're saving money? 
2) You and I both know that ownership and caretaking is a big part of owning a bow. Its pride and learning to be responsible with your stuff. Getting to know your equipment well. And I think that that's something lost when you just rent. You're gonna take better care of your stuff, and not do foolish things with a bow if its yours. There's not telling what the other person did to the bow before you. 
3) That leads into what I am going to say now. You have no idea what the last person to it did. You have something consistent that you know well and you know what its doing and if there's a problem, at least you have a chance to track it down. You shoot with pride. 
4) customization. There's not immediate guaruntee that you'll get what you want or need when you are renting. 

Economics and stewardship. Besides, these are bows that are relatively cheap within the spectrum of archery. 

If I were the poster. I would say, got with a Hoyt GM and get some challenger limbs or something. Having said that, if you want my personal pick of the two, Optima. I shot with one when I started.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

bsu_beginner said:


> 1) there should be a siren that goes off in the shop when the cost of rental excedes the cost of the bow. Its like a house. why rent when you can put a downpayment and just pay it off? I mean, in the end you're saving money?


How much does it cost to rent where you go?



bsu_beginner said:


> 2) You and I both know that ownership and caretaking is a big part of owning a bow. Its pride and learning to be responsible with your stuff. Getting to know your equipment well. And I think that that's something lost when you just rent. You're gonna take better care of your stuff, and not do foolish things with a bow if its yours. There's not telling what the other person did to the bow before you.


Ha, I'm terrible with my equipment. Do you know why I pay extra money (well, five bucks) for an adjustable stick on rest? Because I'm not smart enough to position a non-adjustable rest properly. I also leave my bow strung long after I'm done shooting because I'm too lazy to take it down.

Seriously, I think reverence of equipment is inversely proportional to skill. At a competitiom, I never fail to see an adorable little kid who just started shooting who will treat his Bullseye bow like a piece of the true cross, while down at the adult side, someone pulls their bow out of the back of their truck, fully assembled (they don't own a case), strings without a stringer (They don't own one of those either), and proceeds to take first place. If you ever shoot at the same comp as the RAs, watch them set up their bows. Half won't use a stringer and half of that group *gasp* string with the step-through method.



bsu_beginner said:


> 3) That leads into what I am going to say now. You have no idea what the last person to it did. You have something consistent that you know well and you know what its doing and if there's a problem, at least you have a chance to track it down. You shoot with pride.


Beginners are still developing form. Anyway, who says you can't shoot the same with a house bow as you do with your normal bow (I'm not talking about scores here)? Hell, I WISH I could shoot my normal bow like I shoot a housebow/stretchband.



> 4) customization. There's not immediate guaruntee that you'll get what you want or need when you are renting.


Beginners NEVER costumize their equipment. Half of them fail to realize that they don't have plungers.



bsu_beginner said:


> If I were the poster. I would say, got with a Hoyt GM and get some challenger limbs or something. Having said that, if you want my personal pick of the two, Optima. I shot with one when I started.


The GM was a fine riser, but has been pushed aside by better risers in the same price range, including Hoyt's own Eclipse. And Optimas just blow.


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

I don't know about other parts of the world, but to use your terminology, the recurve rental bows and arrows in most shops I visit "blow". I've seen beginners shoot a few overspined arrows off tired bows and decide its not worth it.

You can obtain a reasonable, light poundage starter bow with which to learn form for a small investment. I've used both the Samick and Optima with beginners and seen kids shoot excellent scores with either. Depends on your needs and how much you want to invest. I think the Samick limbs are better. Another alternative is Quinn's Archery (formerly TQ). Those bows have well constructed limbs and shoot well for a nominal price.

my two cents.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

And I've seen parents buy nice bows only to have the kid quit. These are the same children who would quit if they couldn't do well with your house bows.

I don't care what you're shooting, it'll shoot like crap if it isn't tuned. And you can't tune a bow if you don't know how to shoot one. Ergo, you learn to shoot then buy a bow. People who quit would have quit anyway.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

*Nice Attitude*



Miles Gloriosus said:


> How much does it cost to rent where you go?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It costs $4/hr to shoot where we shoot indoor and then $14/hr to rent a bow. Those bows are NEVER tuned. The arrows that are shot out of them are overspined and fletchings are riped or missing. They are plain sorry. 

I have to totally disagree with you that the ones that rent a bow are ones that would quit anyway. I have heard all along that my kid would quit before they were a teen. Well guess what the kid is still shootin' and shootin' well. If the kid had started on a rented bow rather then an optima, then I am sure the kid would have quit. But because of early success with feathers on arrows off an optima flew somewhat decent, the interest grew. Now the bow set up costs about $2500 per bow x2 (including a dz arrows for each bow). The jump from an optima to a Hoyt Matrix with edge limbs was a jump in score of over 100 pts in a 900 and in that first year from a 670 in a FITA at the bowman level to a 1294 11 months later. No question that a better bow results in better scores but just because they are throwing a stupid amt of money on rented bows does not mean they can then save up enough to by a better bow later. 

Not everyone treats their bows as you do. I see very few people at tournaments that treat their bows in the manner that you suggest. Yes there are some and we shake our heads and keep shooting, just not next to them on the line.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

I think you may have misunderstood me on two accounts and underestimated the durability of modern archery equipment.


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

*bow on trad section*

There is a Internature take down for sale real cheap inthe trad section. If my kids were older, I would jump on it. Great bow to start with. 

Not the best bow in the world but for the price, ($55)it would beat renting real fast. 

dave


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## menaztricks (Apr 2, 2006)

Despite durability of equipment I really doubt anybody who pops $800+ on a setup is going to treat it like garbage. I also doubt that a bow full of dirt, scratches and dents, which is what would happen to one treated as described, would shoot as well as a well taken care of bow.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

As long as your plunger is clean and your sight can adjust and lock down properly, and the limbs are straight enough to tune, the equipment is fine.

Don't get me wrong, I own an SKB case and use it. Just not all the time. If anything, I shoot more often (and thus am a better shooter) because it's less of a hassle to set up my equipment. I only disassemble for travel.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

Out of curiosity, how many of you work with a JOAD or club? I mean directly, like you coach or help with equipment or something, not that you're just parents of a JOAD archer.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Opitma, Lavita, Evolution II and Rolan*



Feron315 said:


> Hi, my name is Gavin, I just started to do archery during the summer and now I am planning to buy a recurve bow, but I can't decide between the PSE's Optima and the Samick Lavita. If anybody have them or know about them please tell me what you think because I am interested in comparing their looks, durability and would normal archery equipments fit on them. THANX so much guys!!


Note that there are different size PSE Optima risers and different length Optima limbs.
Sight window height maybe a challenge if you have a short riser and or light poundage on any bow.
Optima’s are popular in PSE's home state of AZ.

The Samick Lavita looks nice too. 
Access to and cost of limb upgrades as you develop might be the deciding factor.

I like International limb fitting system bows like the Evolution II
http://www.greatreearchery.com/ProdData.asp?Prod=Youth Bows 
Most 20 year olds can hold it up its mass weight.
As you will see from other threads when starting out go light draw weight 15-20 lbs and match the bow length with your likely future draw length.
And then move up in weight (and length) as you develop.

For a light mass weight bow the Rolan is ideal.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/sho...d=150&osCsid=aa4554050e5fbd0c500998cec5887536 

Good Luck


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

*Good post serious fun*

Excellent points in responding to the original question.


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanx all of you for your comments, I really appreciate it!! Also, I have an other question, let's say I have decided to get the Samick lavita bow, I want to know if this sight and arrow rest with fit this recurve, or are they just for compound bows: the PSE Top gun F-18 http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=747
and the NAP quiktune 1000 
http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=886


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

*sight/rest*

For a recurve (presumably shot with fingers, not a release) you do not want that kind of rest: it is designed for dealing with the vertical pressure you'd get with a release. I assume you're interested in tournament-style target shooting.
The cheapest style rest (and a decent qaulity, too) is something like the Hoyt Super rest (@ $2.50 at Lancaster), a plastic side-mounted stick-on rest (or a Cavalier 300 flipper style at $6.99), plus a pressure button/cushion plunger (such as Cartel plunger $11.99 or Cavalier Master plunger $21.99), for starters. A suggested basic sight is the Cartel Super sight at $19.99 or Junior @ $29.99. These are adjustable windage/elevation single-pin target sights.
See what the rest of the on-line "committee" suggests...


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Miles Gloriosus said:


> I think you may have misunderstood me on two accounts and underestimated the durability of modern archery equipment.


I think you've made yourself perfectly clear. You're explanation was adequete enough to tell us that you have have no idea what you're talking about. Thank you for shrinking the learning curve for most beginning archers. Unlike what you think, there are some archers who start wanting to be good and not just cuz they are going to quit. If they do not start with a bow themselves, then at least they should start with someone who cares enough to tune the bow right anyways.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Miles Gloriosus said:


> Out of curiosity, how many of you work with a JOAD or club? I mean directly, like you coach or help with equipment or something, not that you're just parents of a JOAD archer.


Out of curiousity, do you?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Appropriate sight, rest and plunger for a beginners bow. RH vs LH*



Feron315 said:


> Thanx all of you for your comments, I really appreciate it!! Also, I have an other question, let's say I have decided to get the Samick lavita bow, I want to know if this sight and arrow rest with fit this recurve, or are they just for compound bows: the PSE Top gun F-18 http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=747
> and the NAP quiktune 1000
> http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=886


Rest
For a personal beginners bow, I like a one wire stick on rest.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=40_116&products_id=1981
Buy two, so you have a replacement when the first one pops off.

Plunger
I like selecting a plunger like the master plunger and sticking with it forever as you move up in bow quality.
For recurves you want the standard master plunger. 
Many plungers shafts are to long, the master plunger seems to work universally.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=40_118&products_id=2075 

Sight
Most people I know start with this nylon plastic sight.
It comes with an 8/32 thread aperture.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=39_90_358&products_id=2688

Some then move up to a Cartel Medalist.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=39_90_358&products_id=2684
Or
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=39_90_358&products_id=6691 

Should you upgrade to a higher end set up, you can keep your beginners bow fully intact and share with a friend when they want to give archery a try.

One more thing, if you can indulge me, a simple economical setup can achieve great things.
Many JOAD national records have been set with a beginners bow including the Optima. 
Take time to size your arrows (i.e. computer programs) and then tune your arrows to you, (i.e. draw length) and your bow (i.e. poundage)

In closing, typically the choice of a right handed vs left handed bow is based on eye dominance.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

bsu_beginner said:


> Out of curiousity, do you?


Very heavily. In fact, a lot of equipment questions kids in the club have come to me, so this isn't the first time I've played this game by any means.



bsu_beginner said:


> If they do not start with a bow themselves, then at least they should start with someone who cares enough to tune the bow right anyways.


You can't tune a bow for a raw beginner archer.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Miles Gloriosus said:


> Very heavily. In fact, a lot of equipment questions kids in the club have come to me, so this isn't the first time I've played this game by any means.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't tune a bow for a raw beginner archer.


"the game"? I hope you weren't refering to the nature of the credibility question. I hardly think that investing your time in kids is "the game." if it is, I'd be scared to let them near you. 

It is a heavy question. Only most of the time stated less simply. 

Its interesting to note the lack of humility displayed when you say you state why you think you shoot better than most (leaving your bow strung). Word to the wise, you might think you do... but do yourself a favor and be ready for folks to laugh when the game rears up and bites you at an inoppurtune time. 

Uhmmm... as far as you can't tune a bow for a raw beginning archer. 
1) what an insult. if you look at the statement in terms of its connotations, your stating that beginners are so bad, that they don't deserve to have a bow tuned for them. I'm honestly not sure what your job is... but I hope its not a job where you have to pay attention to specific detail. 
2) perhaps you're right... but if you're a beginner, you have enough to deal with with your starting technique, you honestly don't need to sweat your equipment. 

As for the PSE. Making flamboyant and wreckless statements like "it blows" without any real hard evidence. i hope you're not thinking you can convince people by the mere weight of opinion. What is your evidence that it blows?

It seems as if you're being cynical about the nature of beginning archers. And that's truly sad. I have volunteered for JOADs and have worked with them. Quite frankly I'm not sure if its a regional thing you're talking about or not. But the kind of behaviors you're portraying beginning and young archers as being as truly offensive. I guess that's getting to the heart of what is irritating about your statements. Anything further on that isn't worth dignifying from me.


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

Hi, thanx so much again, now that you guys have suggested me what recurve arrow rest to get, I am wondering if the NAP centerest flipper rest is good... coz it seems to be a rest and a plunger all in one... http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=892


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm sorry, but... were you wanting hunting or were you going to shoot target? 

Its not a bad rest you have shown.

For a rest that I'd recomment personally 
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=40_116&products_id=1966

I'm sure you MIGHT be able to find it cheaper somewhere else... but that's a rest I'd recommend. Plunger rest combo, as you say.


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

Feron315 said:


> Hi, thanx so much again, now that you guys have suggested me what recurve arrow rest to get, I am wondering if the NAP centerest flipper rest is good... coz it seems to be a rest and a plunger all in one... http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=892


Serious Fun's recommendations are sound. The NAP rest you mention is okay, but for not much more, you can get something better. 

Once you get your equipment, check out the Easton tuning guide--it will provide you some free and sound information on tuning your bow. Available at: http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/zips/tuning_guide.zip


Good luck.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Rest and arrow center*



Feron315 said:


> Hi, thanx so much again, now that you guys have suggested me what recurve arrow rest to get, I am wondering if the NAP centerest flipper rest is good... coz it seems to be a rest and a plunger all in one... http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=892


For recurve, the arrow tip should be slightly out from center. 
See the referenced Easton arrow turning guide, page 3 figure 7. 
I have found the arrow rest you mention to be impossible to set up with proper arrow tip alignment, at times, because of the width or thickness of the rest against the riser and the lack of the threaded portion extending down the full length of the sleeve.


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

thanx seriousfun... so what about that cavalier free flyte rest? do you think won't be good?
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=40_116&products_id=1966


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Feron315 said:


> thanx seriousfun... so what about that cavalier free flyte rest? do you think won't be good?
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=40_116&products_id=1966


I liked it because it has that spring metal side to it that works like a plunger button. What arrows are you shooting?


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

I haven't bought any arrow yet...
I was planning to get the bow and do some measurements first...
do u have any suggest arrow for that cavalier rest?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*$419.98*

I am often asked "how much does it cost for a complete set up of decent equipment that a beginner can use for a while?"
I guess the answer is $419.98 plus shipping.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_24_32&products_id=7231

The only thing missing are batteries:wink:


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Aluminum*



Feron315 said:


> I haven't bought any arrow yet...
> I was planning to get the bow and do some measurements first...
> do u have any suggest arrow for that cavalier rest?


Most begin with aluminum arrows.
Easton XX75 Jazz and Platinum’s 
Or
X7s Eclipse or Cobalt’s

Easton has arrow size selecting guides under "products" and under "downloads"
http://www.eastonarchery.com
I like aluminum, I think they tend to be more durable.


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

oh okay aluminum arrow it is...haha
so serious fun... you agree with bsu beginner about the cavalier free flyte rest?


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

*My opinion is...*

I've used the cavalier free flyte, but always with a plunger. For beginners, I would suggest a stick on rest such as the Hoyt super (2.95) mentioned by archeryal or the W&W (~$10) mentioned by Serious Fun along with an inexpensive plunger. You will eventually want the plunger anyway and that little metal finger on the free flyte has a way of breaking; it's relatively brittle.

The free flyte has many parts and can be relatively difficult for someone to adjust who is not used to fiddling with bows. The adjustment screw on it has a tendency to back out. I hate it (though my son uses it). Many top archers use the simplest rests--they may know of what they do.

Good luck


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

bsu_beginner said:


> "the game"? I hope you weren't refering to the nature of the credibility question. I hardly think that investing your time in kids is "the game." if it is, I'd be scared to let them near you.





bsu_beginner said:


> Its interesting to note the lack of humility displayed when you say you state why you think you shoot better than most (leaving your bow strung). Word to the wise, you might think you do... but do yourself a favor and be ready for folks to laugh when the game rears up and bites you at an inoppurtune time.





bsu_beginner said:


> 1) what an insult. if you look at the statement in terms of its connotations, your stating that beginners are so bad, that they don't deserve to have a bow tuned for them. I'm honestly not sure what your job is... but I hope its not a job where you have to pay attention to specific detail.





bsu_beginner said:


> As for the PSE. Making flamboyant and wreckless statements like "it blows" without any real hard evidence. i hope you're not thinking you can convince people by the mere weight of opinion. What is your evidence that it blows?





bsu_beginner said:


> It seems as if you're being cynical about the nature of beginning archers. And that's truly sad. I have volunteered for JOADs and have worked with them. Quite frankly I'm not sure if its a regional thing you're talking about or not. But the kind of behaviors you're portraying beginning and young archers as being as truly offensive. I guess that's getting to the heart of what is irritating about your statements. Anything further on that isn't worth dignifying from me.


This isn't what I've been saying and you know it. I'm more than willing to help any person with any questions that I can answer, but I don't like my advice to be strawmanned like this. I don't see how someone like you can maintain any credibility, but then this website seriously lacks quality posters.


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

bsu_beginner said:


> Its interesting to note the lack of humility displayed when you say you state why you think you shoot better than most (leaving your bow strung). Word to the wise, you might think you do... but do yourself a favor and be ready for folks to laugh when the game rears up and bites you at an inoppurtune time.


I never claimed to be better than anyone, I just said I practice more often (ergo, I shoot better) because it doesn't take me ninety hours to put my bow together.

I never said I leave my bow strung either, though there isn't a problem with that; how often do you see compound limbs delaminate? In fact, I see fewer compound limbs delaminate than recurve limbs.



bsu_begginer said:


> 1) what an insult. if you look at the statement in terms of its connotations, your stating that beginners are so bad, that they don't deserve to have a bow tuned for them. I'm honestly not sure what your job is... but I hope its not a job where you have to pay attention to specific detail.


Do you know how to tune a bow? You realize that it cannot be done unless the archer has a consistent anchor and release, right? You realize that but the time that these have been developed, they are definitely ready to buy their own equipment?



bsu_beginner said:


> As for the PSE. Making flamboyant and wreckless statements like "it blows" without any real hard evidence. i hope you're not thinking you can convince people by the mere weight of opinion. What is your evidence that it blows?


A lot of people have had quality problems with the Optima, it is not an ILF riser, and the grip is too square and uncomfortable.

I don't have anything against PSE, the X-factor is an awesome riser. I considered one when I was shopping for a new riser, but did not buy one.



bsu_beginner said:


> It seems as if you're being cynical about the nature of beginning archers. And that's truly sad. I have volunteered for JOADs and have worked with them. Quite frankly I'm not sure if its a regional thing you're talking about or not. But the kind of behaviors you're portraying beginning and young archers as being as truly offensive. I guess that's getting to the heart of what is irritating about your statements. Anything further on that isn't worth dignifying from me.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

Miles Gloriosus said:


> I never said I leave my bow strung either, though there isn't a problem with that; how often do you see compound limbs delaminate? In fact, I see fewer compound limbs delaminate than recurve limbs.
> 
> Do you know how to tune a bow? You realize that it cannot be done unless the archer has a consistent anchor and release, right? You realize that but the time that these have been developed, they are definitely ready to buy their own equipment?


Not to jump in on an apparent flame war, but your first assertion is inappropriate for the argument and I disagree with your second assertion completely. 

First off, modern compound limbs are generally thicker and shorter than recurve limbs, designed for constant loading, and are loaded differently due to the cable system and limb geometry. In other words, they have tolerances built-in for the stresses of constant loading and thermal stressing during transport that take-down recurve limbs do not.

As for tuning a bow, a rank beginner can be taught to tune a bow. There is no mystery to evening the tiller, setting the brace-height, setting the center shot, or adjusting the berger button to get proper arrow spine. Of course, performing these tasks and setting up a bow becomes easier with experience, but it is not beyond the skills of anyone who is willing to read and can understand the Easton Tuning Guide or Tuning For Tens. 

These things have nothing to do with having a proper anchor or form. In fact, I find my anchor changes slightly with different bows. All that matters is that I am consistent with that bow. However, a mistuned bow will affect developing proper form or finding a good anchor. For instance, if the arrows are improperly spined for the bow (and berger button is not set properly), there is no way you will get groups consistent enough to gauge whether your form is consistent or not. And since rental bows are usually out-of-tune, they can cause more harm than good for a nascent archer's form. I say this from experience, having had to unlearn and relearn to shoot after spending too many months shooting rental bows. (I tell new archers to try to use the same bow each time to get some consistency, but even so rental bows see too much use and abuse.)

That said, I agree that this does not mean that a starting archer needs to spend a fortune on a starter kit. They should purchase a kit based on their skills, interest and goals. And that may mean expensive or less so.

PC


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## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

Paradoxical Cat said:


> First off, modern compound limbs are generally thicker and shorter than recurve limbs, designed for constant loading, and are loaded differently due to the cable system and limb geometry. In other words, they have tolerances built-in for the stresses of constant loading and thermal stressing during transport that take-down recurve limbs do not.


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=376139

QED



> As for tuning a bow, a rank beginner can be taught to tune a bow. There is no mystery to evening the tiller, setting the brace-height, setting the center shot, or adjusting the berger button to get proper arrow spine. Of course, performing these tasks and setting up a bow becomes easier with experience, but it is not beyond the skills of anyone who is willing to read and can understand the Easton Tuning Guide or Tuning For Tens.
> 
> These things have nothing to do with having a proper anchor or form. In fact, I find my anchor changes slightly with different bows. All that matters is that I am consistent with that bow. However, a mistuned bow will affect developing proper form or finding a good anchor. For instance, if the arrows are improperly spined for the bow (and berger button is not set properly), there is no way you will get groups consistent enough to gauge whether your form is consistent or not. And since rental bows are usually out-of-tune, they can cause more harm than good for a nascent archer's form. I say this from experience, having had to unlearn and relearn to shoot after spending too many months shooting rental bows. (I tell new archers to try to use the same bow each time to get some consistency, but even so rental bows see too much use and abuse.)


Please explain how to tune a bow to an archer that does not have a consistent draw lenght, when drawlength is one of the hugest factors affecting the tune of the bow.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

Miles Gloriosus said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=376139
> 
> QED
> 
> ...


How about a Kisser button? My child was 10 when she started shooting. Her coach tuned her bow and the very first thing she learned was a consistant draw length. She learned to set her brace height every time exactly the same. She learned to put her bow together and take it down when she was done. 

You absolutely can tune a bow for a rank beginner. Does that mean that they will have consistant groups, no. But I certainly hope you are not throwing brand new JOAD kids in the wind and telling them that tuning their bow is not something they need to learn right away. I really hope you are not telling them it is okay not to take the bow apart when they are done. It does not take nine hours to set up your bow to get ready to shoot. It takes about 5 minutes to put a bow together and take it down. That is putting the limbs in the riser, stringing it, checking the brace height, unstringing it to make any brace height adjustments, screwing in the button, putting the sight on, putting on the front stabilizer, and then each of the counter balance bars. Boy I am tired, telling you how absolutely hard it is to put a bow together. All that work and now you have shoot too?? Give me a break.

And yes, I work with a JOAD club. We take their brand new PSE Optimas, throw away their string, make them a new one, tie on their nocking points (not the metal ones), teach them about brace height and then lazer their center shot for what ever arrow they are shooting. If their arrows have plastic vanes, we tell them to get them refletched with feathers so they will clear the riser better. Since Optimas don't have adjustable tiller, we don't worry about that until they jump into a bow that has tiller adjustment. It is not rocket science on a beginner bow. 

Now, that is not to say I know everything there is to know. I know very little and am learning new stuff every day. Anyone who thinks that they don't have more to learn is only fooling themselves. Yes there is a lot more to tuning a Hoyt and even more to tuning a PSE X-Factor, but I know the basics and leave the rest up to the head coach of the JOAD.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to keep your bow together all the time except for travel, more power to you. But don't teach kids your bad habits, is all I am trying to say.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

Miles Gloriosus said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=376139
> 
> QED
> 
> ...


As to the thread, again, that is apples and oranges. Firstly, this thread is discussing static storage of a low-performance bow. Not dynamic transport of a high-performance bow. Secondly, Viper1's comment regards bad stringing technique not stringing and unstringing in general. Finally, the thread still has nothing to do with the comparison between compounds and recurves for storing a bow strung. If you are going to cite to a thread, please read it carefully. Try again.

As for draw length, you can't learn consistent draw length unless 1) you have a tuned bow, because you can't see the effects of small variations from an untuned bow; and 2) without a clicker, which I have never seen on a rental bow. The upshot is that a tuned bow is a necessity for learning good form. However, the only part of draw length you need for basic tuning is the physical length of the archer's draw. This is easily determined with a "measuring bow" or simply measuring an arrow after the archer draws to their anchor point. (N.B.: this anchor point need not be perfect, but, rather, close to where the archer will eventually draw to.)

PC-


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Appropriate rest*



Feron315 said:


> oh okay aluminum arrow it is...haha
> so serious fun... you agree with bsu beginner about the cavalier free flyte rest?


I think the cost of a $10 stick on rest is appropriate for a $150 bow.
Maybe the question is "what is your budget?" $250 $500? $2500? somewhere in between?


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

well my budget for the set is around 300 I guess....
right now I am thinking of the New archery flipper rest
http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=919&strVarSel=&strCompare=
and the Cavalier Master Plunger
what do you think?


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

The problem with the site I am order is that I can't seem to be able to find the rest you suggested


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

Feron315 said:


> well my budget for the set is around 300 I guess....
> right now I am thinking of the New archery flipper rest
> http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=919&strVarSel=&strCompare=
> and the Cavalier Master Plunger
> what do you think?


Flipper II is a good rest; you will want to add a plunger. I think I remember Limbwalker posting that he used this on his backup bow in Athens.

Another alternative if you want to order from FS is at http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=914.


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

*Knock It Off*

Miles, BSU:

Both of you please knock off the pissing contest. Feron has serious beginner's questions. He may end up thinking archers are a bunch of a-holes the way you two are bickering. If you want to have a thread about equipment durability, or your styles of coaching, or whatever, please start another thread.

Let the flaming begin.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Plungers*



Feron315 said:


> well my budget for the set is around 300 I guess....
> right now I am thinking of the New archery flipper rest
> http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=919&strVarSel=&strCompare=
> and the Cavalier Master Plunger
> what do you think?


I think your choice of rest is an appropriate ecomincal one.
Agian, be sure to buy an extra.
As for plungers, If the Golden Key or Vador fit the riser, either should work just fine and at a much reduced cost than a Master plunger.
http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=140


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## Feron315 (Sep 19, 2006)

*THanX!*

Thank you all of you for your opinions, they really helped me out ALOT!!


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