# doe with arrow in it



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Sounds like a poacher to me - I believe if they can reach it with their mouth they will pull it out themselves. Definatly shoot her if you get a chance.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

It wasn't on your dad's property, was it?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Please post the pics if you get more!


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## shamus275 (Oct 10, 2010)

I've seen does pull arrows out before but I'd think she'd have a hard time pulling it out of her shoulder. I've seen a buck that my cousin drilled in the shoulder in the fall running around with the arrow still in it the next summer so its possible she just survived it and it wasn't a poacher.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

no it was not on my Dad's property - it is on some private land near my house that I have permission to hunt.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Just know if you post pic's they out their for everybody to use good and bad
Gary


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

true gary - we all know that crap happens and any bowhunter who has been bowhunting for any length of time has wounded deer - now if this was a poaching incident - that is different - but if it is a wounded animal from last bow season - it is just an unfortunate part of hunting.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

That sucks


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Probably a rage.:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - well - at least Rage heads on light arrows out of my recurve don't do what happened with this heavy arrow tipped with a two blade: http://www.bowhunting.tv/playvideowindow2.cfm?file=2009106053570554&id=1446


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

It's good to show the bad with the good so people can learn and use more lethal setups in the future.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

henro - a bad hit is a bad it - no matter what the set up


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If the shoulder is hit just right - there is no set up that will not fail


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> henro - a bad hit is a bad it - no matter what the set up


In the shoulder? Could be overcome with a more efficent setup like mine for example. I'm not saying it's unstoppable but it's built to be damn close to that.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If the shoulder is hit just right - there is no set up that will not fail


I plan to prove you wrong this year.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

really - so you plan to make a bad hit just to try and prove me wrong? I can tell you that no matter what your set up - with a bow and arrow - compound, crossbow, or otherwise - if the shoulder is hit at the right (or should I say wrong) angle - there is no set up in the world that will guarantee penetration that will result in a dead animal


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## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

Sharp is right, been there done that.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> really - so you plan to make a bad hit just to try and prove me wrong? I can tell you that no matter what your set up - with a bow and arrow - compound, crossbow, or otherwise - if the shoulder is hit at the right (or should I say wrong) angle - there is no set up in the world that will guarantee penetration that will result in a dead animal


No plan to make a bad hit. Read my signature. Have 4 other friends using similar setups this year though. If it doesn't happen in the deer woods, we will be testing on an animal we've taken. If you read my previous post I stated I know my setup isn't unstoppable, but built to penetrate as well as possible for the specs I wanted. Deer shoulders shouldn't be too hard to split through though using all the advantages I've got with my arrow build. We'll be documenting as much as we can.

Btw, I like the way you think. Hard bone penetration should never be taken lightly or attempted on purpose. I'm certainly not.


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## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

I have had it happen even with a compound.
That shoulder ball is brutal.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, we had a doe in our yard that my wife hit with her jeep,it hobbled around with a broken front leg for 2 months,got pregnant with two fawns.....had the fawns raised them i was in my blind and she came by and I didnt have the heart to shoot her.

I know shes 6 years old now at least and she had two more fawns this past spring.


Dewayne


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

tichound said:


> I have had it happen even with a compound.
> That shoulder ball is brutal.


I've had it happen too. That's why I've built this arrow build this year. High mass at very good speed(591gr @ 269fps) for high MO, 22.7% foc, super sharp and strong single bevel 2-blade broadhead, small diameter shaft with ferrule diameter larger than the shaft. How did yours compare to this?

sharpbroadhead you should join this discussion I think you'll have a good convo with ozarksbuckslaye:http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1847391&page=6

This is my arrow build btw if you want to see what I'm talking about: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182&p=1065198104#post1065198104


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## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

I wish you luck on your setup.
I would like to see the results, on a dead center shot in the ball joint.
My set up was a 4 blade muzzy total arrow weight of 450 gr.
280 FPS.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

tichound said:


> I wish you luck on your setup.
> I would like to see the results, on a dead center shot in the ball joint.
> My set up was a 4 blade muzzy total arrow weight of 450 gr.
> 280 FPS.


Subscribe to my arrow build thread then. Myself and my buddies are going to keep it updated throughout the season. It's already 9 pages deep lol.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

You wouldn't like my feeling on it - I did my own penetration tests:

Part 1 of 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4RGcyZ_gJY&list=UU4q_weDHFOOKu5SjJhvmMeg&index=17&feature=plcp

Part 2 of 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfK0sBsZBw&feature=relmfu

I am currently using a 348 grain arrow out of a 47lb recurve tipped with a Rage 40KE and have had the best blood trails in 20+ years of bowhunting.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Guys, I blasted a doe through both shoulders last season with a crossbow. Clean through with a 2 inch Grim Reaper. Thought I hit the heart. Apparently not. I chased that deer for 3 days. I'd bump it .... then walk out and go back the next day, and so on. Anyway, she finally died, had a massive exit wound, and when I skinned it I had broken both shoulders and the opposite leg bone was shattered. Went a little low and just missed the heart. Very strong animal surviving as long as it did. I'm done with the heart shots, I go for double lungs now.


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

Sharp, do you get full pass through with your setup? I read somewhere that deer run farther with the arrow still in them but I am not too sure of that theory. Double lunged a doe (arrow in the dirt) and she booked it 150 yards once. Just curious.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have had two pass throughs and one that on a quartering toward me shot entered behind the front shoulder and lodged in the back hip on the opposite side


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> You wouldn't like my feeling on it - I did my own penetration tests:
> 
> Part 1 of 2:
> 
> ...


LOL you're right I don't.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

shoulder shots dont put meat in freezer and Gary's sure right about posting pictures of such.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

our bow season opened today - I could not go this morning - work to do - but plan on getting out for the last couple hours before dark - if I see that doe with the arrow in her - I plan on shooting her.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Good luck letting the air out of her!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I dunno - it is part of bowhunting and I decided to post this pic, since I got another one of her -


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## bowtech94 (Jan 7, 2010)

doesn't look like it went in to deep at all


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## fordtough (Sep 7, 2012)

An expandable to the shoulder or am I seeing things?

Good luck getting her.

I got nothing. Im not near as cool as my Galaxy SIII


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

expandable? Looks to me like a three blade - a snuffer or something


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Heck it could be a field point for all we know buried in and infected to heck and back. Like some local dufus caught her under the acorn tree in his yard and tried to make a long shot off the porch. Kill her and yank it out, see whatcha get.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If I see her I plan on it - didn't see anything today


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## Mapes (Feb 17, 2008)

Shot a doe myself one year never found her..saw her way off the next season..a full year after, with the arrow in her still


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

700 grain wood arrow shafts go lenthwise before breaking bone in the offside shoulder. Now don't go asking for the details on a very long story, but this is where a heavy shaft helps. Goats like we got here in Hawaii are just little bitty critters, but they stop arrows as well. I shot a deer on molokai that had its skull cap knocked loose... probably why I was able to shoot it in the middle of the road. As I was skinning it and pulled the skin over its head, the horns tilted forward and when we looked at it after cutting the neck, it had two holes through both ears the base of the skull... weird.... kept right on trucking... don't know how long before I shot it, but most folks tell me probably not too long or the bone would have probably healed again.

Animals are tough. They survive animal attacks, and all sorts of injury and survive. It's sad to see an animal wounded, but if its behaving normally, even with an arrow I'm told that it will probably scar over it and live to have another season.


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

henro said:


> I've had it happen too. That's why I've built this arrow build this year. High mass at very good speed(591gr @ 269fps) for high MO, 22.7% foc, super sharp and strong single bevel 2-blade broadhead, small diameter shaft with ferrule diameter larger than the shaft. How did yours compare to this?
> 
> sharpbroadhead you should join this discussion I think you'll have a good convo with ozarksbuckslaye:http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1847391&page=6
> 
> This is my arrow build btw if you want to see what I'm talking about: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182&p=1065198104#post1065198104


That thread is closed. All's well that ends well lmao. It's funny that you mentioned me. Sharp is pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to this bow stuff and pretty much tells it like it is. I think it would be wise if you listened to what he says instead of going around half coc.ked boasting about how much superior your new super duper arrows are that you've not killed anything with yet.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> expandable? Looks to me like a three blade - a snuffer or something


Don't think its a snuffer... I think it looks more like a zwickey delta... from my easy chair here... snuffers make pretty big holes and if it didn't go all teh way in, you'd I think for sure see the three blades pretty easily.

Then again.... its hard for me to tell.... tried to zoom in on it.... that messed up ... still can't tell.... looks scarred up though...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> That thread is closed. All's well that ends well lmao. It's funny that you mentioned me. Sharp is pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to this bow stuff and pretty much tells it like it is. I think it would be wise if you listened to what he says instead of going around half coc.ked boasting about how much superior your new super duper arrows are that you've not killed anything with yet.


Shouldn't you be out poaching?

Btw, 4 deer have already been taken this year to near identical builds from my buddy's this year that I helped setup. Only difference is they're all shooting the 145gr heads out of slightly slower bows. What next cocky?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Anyone come up with a blade possibility? Now I'm really curious that someone brought it up... :grin:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I usually shoot 4 to 5 deer a year and have every year for over 20 years and have never had a penetration issue - whether i used heavy or light arrows - whether I used three blade or two blade - whether I used expandable or fixed blade - never had issues with penetration - the only issues I have had at times were very poor blood trails - and that seems to be solved with these Rage 40KE


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## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

Well I think that sometimes it just "happens".

On penetration tests, don't forget range. Maybe that shot on the doe was a long shot and the arrow was running out of steam, in addition to hitting a hard spot. Whoever done it, hunter, poacher, or Big Foot, we'll never know the range.

Don't have time to check out the penetration tests above at the moment, but again, how two arrows penetrate at 20 yards, and how they do at 35-40 yards can be "different", results can even be reversed comparing two different weight arrows (or bullets) at different ranges. Just a thought, I'm sure the tests above are great and I will take a look.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Nokhead said:


> Well I think that sometimes it just "happens".
> 
> On penetration tests, don't forget range. Maybe that shot on the doe was a long shot and the arrow was running out of steam, in addition to hitting a hard spot. Whoever done it, hunter, poacher, or Big Foot, we'll never know the range.
> 
> Don't have time to check out the penetration tests above at the moment, but again, how two arrows penetrate at 20 yards, and how they do at 35-40 yards can be "different", results can even be reversed comparing two different weight arrows (or bullets) at different ranges. Just a thought, I'm sure the tests above are great and I will take a look.


Good point, every arrow at some range is going to run out of steam.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Nokhead - I did my penetration tests out to 35 yards and the results were the same as at 15 yards, 20 yards, 25, yards, 30 and 35 yards - the lighter faster arrow slightly out penetrated the heavier slower arrow in both the ballistic gel and the phonebook.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - and I did not test past 35 yards becaues I would not shoot further than that hunting anyhow - so I really didn't care beyond that distance what happened.


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## Richard1969 (Jan 20, 2012)

SteveB said:


> Probably a rage.:wink:


Lol that's what I was thinking!

Sent from my HTC EVO


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Richard1969 said:


> Lol that's what I was thinking!
> 
> Sent from my HTC EVO


You'd be thinking that from the size of the laceration?


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## fordtough (Sep 7, 2012)

Thats what made me think it. Looks like a very large slice there.

Im not nocking any broadhead. Thats a spot that not many will make it though.

I got nothing. Im not near as cool as my Galaxy SIII


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## Guardian Shoote (Jan 11, 2007)

X2!! I agree 




crossxsticks said:


> shoulder shots dont put meat in freezer and Gary's sure right about posting pictures of such.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

fordtough said:


> Thats what made me think it. Looks like a very large slice there.
> 
> Im not nocking any broadhead. Thats a spot that not many will make it though.
> 
> I got nothing. Im not near as cool as my Galaxy SIII


 Great observations..... :thumbs_up ... 

Aloha... :beer:


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## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

Okay, that's interesting Sharpbroadhead. Interesting results. I agree on ending testing at 35 yards, was just thinking that some people might only test at 20 yards and call it good.


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Nokhead - I did my penetration tests out to 35 yards and the results were the same as at 15 yards, 20 yards, 25, yards, 30 and 35 yards - the lighter faster arrow slightly out penetrated the heavier slower arrow in both the ballistic gel and the phonebook.


I wonder which one would knock the phone book further back on a table setup?
I've shot several deer "in the shoulder" 75# wheel bow and 60# recurve) and all of them went 3-4 feet. The arrow going through the first shoulder blade and sticking in the other side and knocking the deer completely off it's feet. No trailing required. Do loose some good shoulder roasts though.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would assume whichever one penetrated deeper would also push it further - but I could be wrong - I suppose one could put a rubber small game tip on and shoot at a standing phone book and see which arrow pushes it further


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> LOL you're right I don't.


Hunting isnt an exact science. You can read Ashbys papers and build the exact arrow he tells you to build, but you cant factor in random bad luck.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If you follow Ashby's advice to a "t" it is a recipe for bad luck -


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I dunno - it is part of bowhunting and I decided to post this pic, since I got another one of her -
> View attachment 1473103


looks like a rage 2 blade. bet that shoulder has a infection in it.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you follow Ashby's advice to a "t" it is a recipe for bad luck -


*sigh*.... you must love these credibility gaps you create with your statements in absolute vacuums.... especially in light of recent suggestions as to why ashby's and many many hundreds of others, such as myself, fred bear, and dozens on Archery Talk who have not experienced your success with light arrows over heavy. It's funny too.... because I have discovered you have created a cottage industry in folks doing their own testing with heavy arrows not just proving you wrong, dramatically proving you wrong... 

Your test results are proof that in YOUR BOW, those are the results. Your results mean nothing more than additional information for other to access in order to try for themselves. Just as Ashby provides results that we ourselves can try... and you know what... so far Sharp... you aint winning....


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I would assume whichever one penetrated deeper would also push it further - but I could be wrong - I suppose one could put a rubber small game tip on and shoot at a standing phone book and see which arrow pushes it further


I was just thinking about being hit by a safety or a linebacker.....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

<3 Archery said:


> Hunting isnt an exact science. You can read Ashbys papers and build the exact arrow he tells you to build, but you cant factor in random bad luck.


I guess you've never read Ashby's reports because the whole basis for these type of arrow builds is the "bad luck" that you cannot forsee and to be prepared for it...


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> I guess you've never read Ashby's reports because the whole basis for these type of arrow builds is the "bad luck" that you cannot forsee and to be prepared for it...


I understand that, but there is no perfect arrow, or perfect anything in this world for that matter. I have read his reports and build my arrows accordingly, but i've bowhunted enough to know that some of the craziest things possible happen.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - now there is a guy that looked at the photo - and can tell what type of broadhead and how many blades it has from underneath the skin - LOL - I zoomed in and looked very close and to me it looks like it might be a three blade head - but I would not say for sure - for all I know it is a field point - wouldn't it be funny if it was one of these $80.00 a piece 4000 grain Ashby heads


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

<3 Archery said:


> I understand that, but there is no perfect arrow, or perfect anything in this world for that matter. I have read his reports and build my arrows accordingly, but i've bowhunted enough to know that some of the craziest things possible happen.


No one said it was the perfect arrow but it is built with attention to factors that are proven to enhance penetration.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - now there is a guy that looked at the photo - and can tell what type of broadhead and how many blades it has from underneath the skin - LOL - I zoomed in and looked very close and to me it looks like it might be a three blade head - but I would not say for sure - for all I know it is a field point - wouldn't it be funny if it was one of these $80.00 a piece 4000 grain Ashby heads


Since when does ashby sell anything?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

<3 Archery said:


> I understand that, but there is no perfect arrow, or perfect anything in this world for that matter. I have read his reports and build my arrows accordingly, but i've bowhunted enough to know that some of the craziest things possible happen.


I have found ashby to be very helpful for me and my hickory arrows. I've learned about tapering and FOC... sometimes a little difficult to achieve with wood if you are looking for the extremes... but on the other hand, heavy arrows with some FOC fly and penetrate as well as one could ask.

I hunt within just a few yards from my bow. My shooting is generally 22 yards at a target. My heavy arrows are not 22 yard limited however. I'm not 40 or 50 anytime soon, but 25, 15, and most all of my animals have been within those ranges. I think that most people concerned with hunting try to keep within their effective range... that keeps whatever trajectory you have within your control... but like you have said.... there are gremlins, murphy's, and the occasional ... "oh dang!"


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I dunno - it is part of bowhunting and I decided to post this pic, since I got another one of her -
> View attachment 1473103


Looks like someone found the ridge with a Rage, lol. Sucks for that deer. 

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Whitey375 said:


> Looks like someone found the ridge with a Rage, lol. Sucks for that deer.
> 
> Beast Mode Road Hunter


Who, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy...


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you follow Ashby's advice to a "t" it is a recipe for bad luck -


That seems to be a highly uneducated statement, IMO of course. Wonder what Ashby thinks of light arrows and Rage heads?

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

henro said:


> Who, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy...


Bwahahaha...love that movie

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

It is my personal belief from my own hunting experience only... not standardized testing, that a medium weight arrow traveling at a pretty fair speed outpenetrates both very light, blazing fast setups and the setups that basically resemble a hoe handle with a point. I have done most of my testing with wheelie bows shooting 700 gr arrows down to as low as 380 gr with the same style heads out of the same bows. I have shot African game as large as kudu and whitetail. The speed demon arrows would stop like they hit a brick wall in deer size game if they hit anything resembling a bone and the heavy arrows allowed for too much animal movement after the shot which made for some string ducking problems (shoulder blade hits). Heavy penetrated but the trajectory sucked. What worked the best for me was arrows in the 500-550gr range with 18% or so FOC for trajectory and penetration due to both preferable trajectory/speed and penetration on impact if the shot was questionable or animal movement put it at a bad angle or impact zone. On targets, checking for penetration, my 60lb curve with the same style arrow set up penetrates as good as any I have tested in the past. Sorry, not many animal hits with the curve so far... still workin on that.

But I dont really buy into all the so-called standardized testing, bc there is no medium that truly resembles a moving animal... key word, moving. I dont doubt that a heavy FOC arrow recovers faster which translates a lot of energy to the shaft and therefore increasing the chances for good penetration, but what happens when the arrow is on its way is really more critical than the stick in flight. So a quiet, fast, sharp set up to me is of the upmost importance.

Dave


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I retreived the broadhead - it was at the end of a Grizzly Stick - here is a pic of it:








It was one of those $40.00 a piece Ashby heads: http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Ashby-Single-Bevel-Broadheads-P147C71.aspx


:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

just kidding - I don't think anyone who hunts in Wisconsin would spend $40.00 a piece for a broadhead


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

"Disclaimer! Dr. Ed Ashby graciously allowed us to use his name on this broadhead with one condition. He insisted that we make it clear to our customers that he receives no compensation for the use of his name on our broadhead whatsoever. His goal is to educate the world on what kinds of arrows and broadheads best penetrate big game animals. He receives no compensation for any of his research but shares the results freely. He wants to educate bowhunters everywhere on what works best on big game animals so the animals may be harvested in the most efficient manner possible. It's actually more about the animal than the bowhunter. We all owe a great debt to Dr. Ashby for his significant contribution to bowhunting."

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Ashby-Single-Bevel-Broadheads-P147C71.aspx


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Henro - I never said that Ashby sold them - never even implied it - I said the Ashby head and that is the name of it - don't care who sells it anymore than I care who sells the Magnus, the Rage, or whatever


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> "Disclaimer! Dr. Ed Ashby graciously allowed us to use his name on this broadhead with one condition. He insisted that we make it clear to our customers that he receives no compensation for the use of his name on our broadhead whatsoever. His goal is to educate the world on what kinds of arrows and broadheads best penetrate big game animals. He receives no compensation for any of his research but shares the results freely. He wants to educate bowhunters everywhere on what works best on big game animals so the animals may be harvested in the most efficient manner possible. It's actually more about the animal than the bowhunter. We all owe a great debt to Dr. Ashby for his significant contribution to bowhunting."
> 
> http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Ashby-Single-Bevel-Broadheads-P147C71.aspx



Are you using a compound, as pictured in the link to your post? If so, all you need is a 70lb bow and a montech and you'll blow through a whitetail everytime. I was under the assumption you were using this setup with trad gear?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

uabdave said:


> It is my personal belief from my own hunting experience only... not standardized testing, that a medium weight arrow traveling at a pretty fair speed outpenetrates both very light, blazing fast setups and the setups that basically resemble a hoe handle with a point. I have done most of my testing with wheelie bows shooting 700 gr arrows down to as low as 380 gr with the same style heads out of the same bows. I have shot African game as large as kudu and whitetail. The speed demon arrows would stop like they hit a brick wall in deer size game if they hit anything resembling a bone and the heavy arrows allowed for too much animal movement after the shot which made for some string ducking problems (shoulder blade hits). Heavy penetrated but the trajectory sucked. What worked the best for me was arrows in the 500-550gr range with 18% or so FOC for trajectory and penetration due to both preferable trajectory/speed and penetration on impact if the shot was questionable or animal movement put it at a bad angle or impact zone. On targets, checking for penetration, my 60lb curve with the same style arrow set up penetrates as good as any I have tested in the past. Sorry, not many animal hits with the curve so far... still workin on that.
> 
> But I dont really buy into all the so-called standardized testing, bc there is no medium that truly resembles a moving animal... key word, moving. I dont doubt that a heavy FOC arrow recovers faster which translates a lot of energy to the shaft and therefore increasing the chances for good penetration, but what happens when the arrow is on its way is really more critical than the stick in flight. So a quiet, fast, sharp set up to me is of the upmost importance.
> 
> Dave




I have found similar results 

I am middle of the road in the heavy vs light debate 

I shoot a 530 grain arrow that is about 20 % Foc

No one knows what head is stuck in that doe and until Ken or another hunter finish the job we won't know


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

<3 Archery said:


> Are you using a compound, as pictured in the link to your post? If so, all you need is a 70lb bow and a montech and you'll blow through a whitetail everytime. I was under the assumption you were using this setup with trad gear?


Using what setup? The VAP build is for my MR5 which is listed in my sig as well. I'm shooting the Gold Tip build in my sig with my recurve.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

[QUOTE=
Incorrect, I didn't blow through a small blacktail buck at 14 yards with a 70# bow and a Montec, which actually broke. The thing is, arrow actually weighed 385gr. Three years later same spot, vastly different setup, Shuttle T and a 475gr arrow, same speed, 295fps, nearly the same shot, difference this time, had to dig my arrow out of a tree 30 yards behind the buck. Shot details, pinned the shoulders together through the spine, think high shoulder shot with a rifle, light arrow stuck barely into second shoulder, heavy, well, I already said that.
Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> Using what setup? The VAP build is for my MR5 which is listed in my sig as well. I'm shooting the Gold Tip build in my sig with my recurve.


Ah, ok.


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

Whitey375 said:


> Incorrect said:
> 
> 
> > If you shot a blacktail at 14 yards with a 70lb bow and a montech and the head broke and didnt pass through, then that head was damaged. Otherwise I find this hard to believe. Not only do I have 100% passthrough rate (even through both shoulders), I have found them to be almost indestructable (The origonal, not the CS). I have gone so far as to shoot them into solid steel.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

<3 Archery said:


> Whitey375 said:
> 
> 
> > If you shot a blacktail at 14 yards with a 70lb bow and a montech and the head broke and didnt pass through, then that head was damaged. Otherwise I find this hard to believe. Not only do I have 100% passthrough rate (even through both shoulders), I have found them to be almost indestructable (The origonal, not the CS). I have gone so far as to shoot them into solid steel.
> ...


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hold on a sec..

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> <3 Archery said:
> 
> 
> > Nah I've broken them and seen plenty of them broken.
> ...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

<3 Archery said:


> henro said:
> 
> 
> > Somehow, I figured you had.
> ...


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

No you haven't, that's garbage and you know it.

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> <3 Archery said:
> 
> 
> > Why? I've tried them? The CS model was stronger.
> ...


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

uabdave said:


> It is my personal belief from my own hunting experience only... not standardized testing, that a medium weight arrow traveling at a pretty fair speed outpenetrates both very light, blazing fast setups and the setups that basically resemble a hoe handle with a point. I have done most of my testing with wheelie bows shooting 700 gr arrows down to as low as 380 gr with the same style heads out of the same bows. I have shot African game as large as kudu and whitetail. The speed demon arrows would stop like they hit a brick wall in deer size game if they hit anything resembling a bone and the heavy arrows allowed for too much animal movement after the shot which made for some string ducking problems (shoulder blade hits). Heavy penetrated but the trajectory sucked. What worked the best for me was arrows in the 500-550gr range with 18% or so FOC for trajectory and penetration due to both preferable trajectory/speed and penetration on impact if the shot was questionable or animal movement put it at a bad angle or impact zone. On targets, checking for penetration, my 60lb curve with the same style arrow set up penetrates as good as any I have tested in the past. Sorry, not many animal hits with the curve so far... still workin on that.
> 
> But I dont really buy into all the so-called standardized testing, bc there is no medium that truly resembles a moving animal... key word, moving. I dont doubt that a heavy FOC arrow recovers faster which translates a lot of energy to the shaft and therefore increasing the chances for good penetration, but what happens when the arrow is on its way is really more critical than the stick in flight. So a quiet, fast, sharp set up to me is of the upmost importance.
> 
> Dave


Dave is a very smart guy. 

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

How hard is it to believe a cast metal broadhead can break? I'm not shooting them at all for a reason. Plus 2-blades out penetrate 3-blades. Better mechanical advantage and single bevels are why I shoot what I have now.


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

henro said:


> How hard is it to believe a cast metal broadhead can break? I'm not shooting them at all for a reason.


Well, for me, they've been indestructable, with 100% passthrough and great blood trails on my goldtip 7595's out of a 70lb Ultratech. And out of a 60lb Commander.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Henro - I suggest you talk to the makers of Magnus, Steelforce, and Simmons and see what they think of single bevels and if their extensive and truly scientific controlled testing of single bevels showed - and btw - two of them - Steelforce and Simmons sell single bevel heads - even though both know that they are inferior on many levels including penetration to a double bevel head. Magnus had a good article in TBM a few years back about why they won't manufacture a single after experimenting with the design. Just because an eye doctor shoots arrows into dead animals and writes about them - does not make all of his conclusions scientific, correct, or infallble. And contrary to what many would have you think - there is not a consesnsus on his findings and opinions. I know - now that Ashby warriors will come out now - but his opinions are his opinions - his testing and theories are flawed on soooo many scientific levels that his opinions are no more or less valid than yours or mine - they are just opinions with the title "Dr." in front of them. 

In all of his wordy - very wordy papers - he never addresses how he ensured that the arrows were tuned to the bow, he never tested in a consistent medium - anyone who knows anything about anatomy and biology knows that if you shoot an arrow into an animal - alive or dead that two arrows shot into it just centimeters apart could encounter vastly different amounts and types of resistance - there is no way to scientifically and accurately compare the ability of two arrows to penetrate when shooting into an inconsistent medium. He never filmed any of his tests - isn't that odd? The technology to film this type of thing has been around and been very inexpensive for the entire time he has been doing his testing. 

He states in one of his papers that in order for his testing to be accurate you have to shoot into the animal within a few minutes of its death - because, according to him - longer than that and significant changes occur in the dead animal that will render any penetration testing to be invalid - odd - how does one get an animal within a few minutes of death and how many times can you shoot into it to get accurate results within that few minutes?

He makes little or no account for the fact that shooting into animals even of the same species and size would not be accurate due to the age of the animal, the overall health of the animal, the time of year, the nutritian and hydration of the animal at the time of death, etc...

I dunno - I don't claim that the tests I did were perfect or even scientific (unlike Ashby), but at least I tried to eliminate as many variables as possible, to shoot in to the most consistent mediums within my budget and capabilites to obtain, and I filmed it with a detailed explanation of the arrows, the bow, etc... - I demonstrated that the arrows were all tuned to the bow, that they all had the same FOC, etc... 

And I did my tests to first satisify myself - then to share what I learned - and ya know what - when I filmed it - I knew from previous shooting and testing what was going to happen in the phonebook - I went through lots of them prior to filming it - but I had no idea what would happen with the Balistic gel - I spent a good buck making that stuff for the film and what you saw in that video was the first shots into it - I had no idea what would happen in the gel till what you saw on film - and low and behold - the same as the phone book.

We played with that gel till it was shot for a day and a half - shooting all sorts of arrows from both my recurve and from other guys compounds at many distances and with many different arrow weights out to 35 yards and the results were always the same until the gel got too shot up to get any consistent results at all.

anyhow - I am tired and ranting - I will stop now

good luck with whatever you do and use - I have no doubt that any weight arrow out of a hunting weight bow will kill and that any type of broadhead single or double will kill animals as long as it is sharp and tuned to the arrow - but to claim that these ridiculously expensive broadheads are superior to all others is absurd - they are likely inferior.


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Henro - I suggest you talk to the makers of Magnus, Steelforce, and Simmons and see what they think of single bevels and if their extensive and truly scientific controlled testing of single bevels showed - and btw - two of them - Steelforce and Simmons sell single bevel heads - even though both know that they are inferior on many levels including penetration to a double bevel head. Magnus had a good article in TBM a few years back about why they won't manufacture a single after experimenting with the design. Just because an eye doctor shoots arrows into dead animals and writes about them - does not make all of his conclusions scientific, correct, or infallble. And contrary to what many would have you think - there is not a consesnsus on his findings and opinions. I know - now that Ashby warriors will come out now - but his opinions are his opinions - his testing and theories are flawed on soooo many scientific levels that his opinions are no more or less valid than yours or mine - they are just opinions with the title "Dr." in front of them.
> 
> In all of his wordy - very wordy papers - he never addresses how he ensured that the arrows were tuned to the bow, he never tested in a consistent medium - anyone who knows anything about anatomy and biology knows that if you shoot an arrow into an animal - alive or dead that two arrows shot into it just centimeters apart could encounter vastly different amounts and types of resistance - there is no way to scientifically and accurately compare the ability of two arrows to penetrate when shooting into an inconsistent medium. He never filmed any of his tests - isn't that odd? The technology to film this type of thing has been around and been very inexpensive for the entire time he has been doing his testing.
> 
> ...


Right, we should just shoot Rages on ultralight arrows then? Hope that our perfect broadside shots work every time. Ashby, however flawed you may think him, did find that 60+% of all shots into game result in bone hits. So, we should completely discount any strategy or preparedness for bone contact, based on your opinion. Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it...

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

if it penetrates deeper in a phonebook - it will penetrate deeper in bone - btw - if you bothered to read my posts about the Rage's or watched the video of the massive blood trails - you would see that of the three deer I shot with them last year - one was broadside, one was quartering away, and the other was quartering towards. And yes - since I believe that accuracy is king and that heavy arrows with EFOC have a negative effect on my accuracy - I don't worry about hitting bone - and no matter what you or ashby says - if you hit bone at the right angle, and the right bone - there is no arrow or broadhead in the world that will always penetrate it and always result in a kill - that is just wishful thinking. Also - if you watched my suplement video on penetration - I shot both the lighter arrows and the heavier arrows into the shoulder blade from a Pork butt - and guess what - both arrows completely penetrated the bone.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Whatever you do I wish you best of luck as well.


sharpbroadhead said:


> Henro - I suggest you talk to the makers of Magnus, Steelforce, and Simmons and see what they think of single bevels and if their extensive and truly scientific controlled testing of single bevels showed - and btw - two of them - Steelforce and Simmons sell single bevel heads - even though both know that they are inferior on many levels including penetration to a double bevel head. Magnus had a good article in TBM a few years back about why they won't manufacture a single after experimenting with the design. Just because an eye doctor shoots arrows into dead animals and writes about them - does not make all of his conclusions scientific, correct, or infallble. And contrary to what many would have you think - there is not a consesnsus on his findings and opinions. I know - now that Ashby warriors will come out now - but his opinions are his opinions - his testing and theories are flawed on soooo many scientific levels that his opinions are no more or less valid than yours or mine - they are just opinions with the title "Dr." in front of them. I have spoken with Steelforce many times. Blake(alwayslookin) has stated his reasons why he likes double bevel better which I respect as the man has done tons of r&d. I have no issue with it, I'm choosing to shoot these single bevels from them and have seen excellent results so far and I believe in their bone splitting ability.
> 
> In all of his wordy - very wordy papers - he never addresses how he ensured that the arrows were tuned to the bow, he never tested in a consistent medium - anyone who knows anything about anatomy and biology knows that if you shoot an arrow into an animal - alive or dead that two arrows shot into it just centimeters apart could encounter vastly different amounts and types of resistance - there is no way to scientifically and accurately compare the ability of two arrows to penetrate when shooting into an inconsistent medium. He never filmed any of his tests - isn't that odd? The technology to film this type of thing has been around and been very inexpensive for the entire time he has been doing his testing. So because you made a video and said in your video the bow was tuned and Ashby just reported it in his findings makes him a liar and you right? If you don't believe the results he listed that's up to you, the man took no income from posting his findings so I have no reason to believe his info was false? Just like I have no reason to believe you've taken any income to post yours.
> 
> ...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> if it penetrates deeper in a phonebook - it will penetrate deeper in bone - btw - if you bothered to read my posts about the Rage's or watched the video of the massive blood trails - you would see that of the three deer I shot with them last year - one was broadside, one was quartering away, and the other was quartering towards. And yes - since I believe that accuracy is king and that heavy arrows with EFOC have a negative effect on my accuracy - I don't worry about hitting bone - and no matter what you or ashby says - if you hit bone at the right angle, and the right bone - there is no arrow or broadhead in the world that will always penetrate it and always result in a kill - that is just wishful thinking. Also - if you watched my suplement video on penetration - I shot both the lighter arrows and the heavier arrows into the shoulder blade from a Pork butt - and guess what - both arrows completely penetrated the bone.


Ok so if pork bones are supposed to be so much easier to penetrate as you've shown, why are we using it as a medium for testing?


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> if it penetrates deeper in a phonebook - it will penetrate deeper in bone - btw - if you bothered to read my posts about the Rage's or watched the video of the massive blood trails - you would see that of the three deer I shot with them last year - one was broadside, one was quartering away, and the other was quartering towards. And yes - since I believe that accuracy is king and that heavy arrows with EFOC have a negative effect on my accuracy - I don't worry about hitting bone - and no matter what you or ashby says - if you hit bone at the right angle, and the right bone - there is no arrow or broadhead in the world that will always penetrate it and always result in a kill - that is just wishful thinking. Also - if you watched my suplement video on penetration - I shot both the lighter arrows and the heavier arrows into the shoulder blade from a Pork butt - and guess what - both arrows completely penetrated the bone.


Really dude? I have seen all your videos. They have one thing in common, videos can be edited to show whatever the owner wants to show. Do you have any idea how many broadheads I've tested on actual bone and ballistics gelatin? I've simulated even tougher conditions than an actual animal. Phone books and pork butt, sweet. 

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

It's finally nice to see that Sharp has finally learned something. That Ashby's opinions are his and that by extension, Sharps opinions are his alone... and Rattus's opinions are his alone.

I do have an opinion on single bevel heads.... I've actually tried out the concept of the single bevel and I think that it works for what he contemplates on bone. For me, snuffers manage all the bone I've encountered so i'm perfectly happy with them... but when I get to africa and if I get a chance at a Cape Buffalo, I'll rethink my snuffer choice.

I've never had a snuffer break. Early on in my shooting I suffered from aiming dysfunction, and had to recover several heads from encounters with Lava rock... dang things almost as indestructible as MA3's... However, Mr. Rothaar, the originator of this magnificent head had an interview once where he spelled out several situations where snuffers failed on bone. The point of my discertation here is that although I'm not predisposed to leave my snuffers at home anytime soon, my success rate with notwithstanding, Rothaar was candid enough to deflate my overinflated opinion of a truly great killer of a head.... that leaves awesome blood trails and goes through bone on my arrows like they are made of a milk product. Everything in life has a huckleberry... including snuffers... or so they say... :grin:

Aloha... :beer:


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## Whitey375 (Mar 26, 2009)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> I would comment further but the mods here are obviously drinking the Ashby Kool-Aid also and would only delete my posts again that prove points they don't want to hear either.


Don't forget head shooting with archery equipment. 

Beast Mode Road Hunter


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

Whitey375 said:


> Don't forget head shooting with archery equipment.
> 
> Beast Mode Road Hunter


You do make a very good point, which is one I like to factor into my decision making process ahead of time. Way ahead of ya' bud. :thumbs_up

Here's a post from me that conveniently got deleted somehow but I'll post it again.

The cranial bone showed the highest cancellous bone density, followed by the iliac bone, clavicle, scapula, rib, and fibula 

Webster's definition of can·cel·lous: 

having a porous structure made up of intersecting plates and bars that form small cavities or cells


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> I would comment further but the mods here are obviously drinking the Ashby Kool-Aid also and would only delete my posts again that prove points they don't want to hear either.


Don't think the mods give a damn one way or the other on Ashby... or Sharp... or the cookie monster... but I have to laugh whenever Ashby is mentioned, all the emotion he seems to elicit. What is even more enlightening, is that he doesn't try to denigrate light heads or speed, in fact he actually has gone so far as to help those that prefer lighter arrows, means to improve penetration, the goals of his studies.... but some here really get exercised about Ashby and I think its hilarious... especially since .... oh well we'll leave it at that... :grin:


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

His findings are rigged at best. He promotes heavy arrows like any other yahoo on here that shoots them and thinks that they are the only way to fly. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I've tested the differences myself and they are not as big as he and many others lead people to believe that they are. Not even remotely close. Yeah real world testing and mathematics both rule slightly in favor of heavier arrows on apples to apples penetration testing (very slightly). Where they fall on their face tho is during real world trajectory tests. In other words, he, like many others, just love making mountains out of molehills.

"As long as it's greasy... as long as it's fast... as long as it's pumpin' honey... it's gonna' last"


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> His findings are rigged at best. He promotes heavy arrows like any other yahoo on here that shoots them and thinks that they are the only way to fly. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I've tested the differences myself and they are not as big as he and many others lead people to believe that they are. Not even remotely close. Yeah real world testing and mathematics both rule slightly in favor of heavier arrows on apples to apples penetration testing (very slightly). Where they fall on their face tho is during real world trajectory tests. In other words, he, like many others, just love making mountains out of molehills.
> 
> "As long as it's greasy... as long as it's fast... as long as it's pumpin' honey... it's gonna' last"


So what are we talking about then... penetration or trajectory? They are not related other than trajectory is related to speed, and speed relates to Kinetic Energy and momentum. But that doesn't affect arrow flight. That comes from aerodynamics, form drag and parasitic drag factors. FOC concerns penetration in a big way, the more forward, the more penetration is accomplished when its needed, which probably isn't gonna be necessary on a kamaaina goat or deer. Elk maybe a different story... and penetration might be nice to have... FOC especially in lighter arrows helps to keep the arrow on track... just like a heavy long bullet of large caliber. But then FOC can affect trajectory on longer flights so its almost back to why not heavy in the first place... :grin:

Personally I don't care what you achieve, I only care what I achieve and what I have achieved are representative of Ashby's findings. On the other hand, it is suggested by a bowyer on the site that is respected for his work, has suggested that heavy stick bows might be more efficient with heavy arrows as would heavier poundage hybrids, thus making penetration more likely to be achieved with heavy arrows versus light arrows. He also suggested that lighter more efficient bows might cast lighter arrows more efficiently and thereby might provide for better penetration with those arrows under certain circumstances versus shooting a lighter arrow out of a heavy stick bow. While I haven't and won't try to verify those suggestions, they make sense to me.

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> His findings are rigged at best. He promotes heavy arrows like any other yahoo on here that shoots them and thinks that they are the only way to fly. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I've tested the differences myself and they are not as big as he and many others lead people to believe that they are. Not even remotely close. Yeah real world testing and mathematics both rule slightly in favor of heavier arrows on apples to apples penetration testing (very slightly). Where they fall on their face tho is during real world trajectory tests. In other words, he, like many others, just love making mountains out of molehills.
> 
> "As long as it's greasy... as long as it's fast... as long as it's pumpin' honey... it's gonna' last"


So what are we talking about then... penetration or trajectory? They are not related other than trajectory is related to speed, and speed relates to Kinetic Energy and momentum. But that doesn't affect arrow flight. That comes from aerodynamics, form drag and parasitic drag factors. FOC concerns penetration in a big way, the more forward, the more penetration is accomplished when its needed, which probably isn't gonna be necessary on a kamaaina goat or deer. Elk maybe a different story... and penetration might be nice to have... FOC especially in lighter arrows helps to keep the arrow on track... just like a heavy long bullet of large caliber. But then FOC can affect trajectory on longer flights so its almost back to why not heavy in the first place... :grin:

Personally I don't care what you achieve, I only care what I achieve and what I have achieved are representative of Ashby's findings. On the other hand, it is suggested by a bowyer on the site that is respected for his work, has suggested that heavy stick bows might be more efficient with heavy arrows as would heavier poundage hybrids, thus making penetration more likely to be achieved with heavy arrows versus light arrows. He also suggested that lighter more efficient bows might cast lighter arrows more efficiently and thereby might provide for better penetration with those arrows under certain circumstances versus shooting a lighter arrow out of a heavy stick bow. While I haven't and won't try to verify those suggestions, they make sense to me.

Aloha... :beer:


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

I could care less who respects him or me. I can tell you this much tho. I've killed around 100 deer +/- with arrows that definitely would not meet his approval let alone the ones I've shot with arrows that he would have approved of. I haven't had a problem with any of my arrows eating any of their lunches after making a good hit. I shoot em' and they die. Simple as that. My studies aren't based off of four deer that my buddies have shot so take it for whatever it's worth.


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> I could care less who respects him or me. I can tell you this much tho. I've killed around 100 deer +/- with arrows that definitely would not meet his approval let alone the ones I've shot with arrows that he would have approved of. I haven't had a problem with any of my arrows eating any of their lunches after making a good hit. I shoot em' and they die. Simple as that. My studies aren't based off of four deer that my buddies have shot so take it for whatever it's worth.


I take that back. I did make a shot or three that I still feel were good hits that I did not recover due to penetration and deflection issues. I was using expandable broadheads on those.


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

Target practice from the tree stand with my hunting friends was when i noticed i had much more penetration. It was funny seeing them trying to figure out how to get my arrows out of the target "don't worry about the fletches pull them right through" : ) seeing my arrow out penetrate theirs had tension's on high 2 out of 3 hunters made last minute changes and went with heavier arrows. 
I'm not saying its end all be all, But if your hunting an area that offers different/larger tougher game you can be confident and have an advantage with a better penetrating setup. Feral swine whoops i hit the shield so many different scenarios. I'd want the heavier setup every time. We all know in the end accuracy is our goal. To each his own enjoy the season.

Be Smart Be Safe Enjoy the Hunts


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - this guy thinks my videos are edited to make it look like both arrows penetrate the same - realy guy - to what end? LOL - oh - I know - the light arrow makers are paying me millions - and there is a light arrow and broadhead combo coming out with my name on it next year! LOL

BTW - how does Ashby get "Fresh Kill" AFrican game within minutes and is able to shoot several times into them within minutes - because according to him in his copyrighted works - (odd of for someone who has no intention of making money from it) - that animal has to be tested within a few minutes of death?

whatever - believe whatever you like - all I know is that my tests and videos were not faked or edited or set up - they are what they are and, unlike the ashby tests - ANYONE can do what I did in their basement or at their local archery range and test it themselves - NOBODY can get ahold of dead african game that are freshly kille within minutes of their death to replicate his tests.

And contrary to what has been posted ashby never demonstrated that his arrows were tuned or that he even is a consistant enough traditional archer to shoot arrows the same shot after shot - ie: - there are man guys who could not consistantly get a "bullet hole" tear through paper - demonstrating the tune no matter what - becuase their form is too inconsistent.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - this guy thinks my videos are edited to make it look like both arrows penetrate the same - realy guy - to what end? LOL - oh - I know - the light arrow makers are paying me millions - and there is a light arrow and broadhead combo coming out with my name on it next year! LOL
> 
> BTW - how does Ashby get "Fresh Kill" AFrican game within minutes and is able to shoot several times into them within minutes - because according to him in his copyrighted works - (odd of for someone who has no intention of making money from it) - that animal has to be tested within a few minutes of death?
> 
> ...


So because you say Ashby was lying, he was. And because you say you weren't lying, you weren't. Makes sense? Why don't you try and contact Ashby yourself and ask him those questions?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> I take that back. I did make a shot or three that I still feel were good hits that I did not recover due to penetration and deflection issues. I was using expandable broadheads on those.


What makes you think whatever arrow you used wouldn't meet his approval? Have you ever seen a comment of his about deer hunting set-ups? I've read I think most of his published stuff online.... I just can't put my finger on what you're suggesting. Do you have a link to that so that I can refresh myself here?

As for deer, who here suggests that you can't kill a deer with a sharp broadhead and proper shot placement?

I'm confused by your reference to Ashby, I think you're saying, in the 100's of deer you've killed?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - this guy thinks my videos are edited to make it look like both arrows penetrate the same - realy guy - to what end? LOL - oh - I know - the light arrow makers are paying me millions - and there is a light arrow and broadhead combo coming out with my name on it next year! LOL
> 
> BTW - how does Ashby get "Fresh Kill" AFrican game within minutes and is able to shoot several times into them within minutes - because according to him in his copyrighted works - (odd of for someone who has no intention of making money from it) - that animal has to be tested within a few minutes of death?
> 
> ...


Do you write anything Sharp? A newsletter or anything? Do you have ideas that you have shared that have merit to others? People who are in the game of writing, as I am from time to time, are encouraged to copywrite your ideas, your study, your personal works to prevent from plagerism from unscrupulous types that might use your work for personal gain or recognition. There is nothing funny about it at all. Just shows that he is an intelligent author in keep his works his.

As for tuned arrows, let me ask you something... if you have an adequately tuned arrow with a 7% FOC and an out of tune 20% FOC, which do you think will have the better chance of penetration upon hitting bone? Which will have that better penetration in your opinion... a 30% FOC and a 600 grain arrow from a 45# recurve, or a 900 grain arrow from a 70#+ bow?


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## <3 Archery (Oct 26, 2009)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> I take that back. I did make a shot or three that I still feel were good hits that I did not recover due to penetration and deflection issues. I was using expandable broadheads on those.


I've lost 1 deer, and almost another, both were good shots during my rage broadhead testing period. No blood on one, drips on the one I recovered. I had to recover it the next day and coyotes had eaten the entire deer. Now I use 3 bladed cut on contact montechs and never had another problem.


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## Macs69 (Jan 2, 2012)

With so much talk about light vs. heavy arrows, and broadhead construction, I am curious as to how much kinetic energy a 45-47# recurve can generate? Does the inheritent inability of a light bow negate the ability to cast a heavy arrow right off the bat? 

I have a 65# (yes, 20 pounds heavier) Martin Super Diablo, and I'm shocked about how poorly it penetrates my bag target with a 2216 in comparison to my 70# Mathews MR5. Yes, penetration on a bag target is inconsequential, but it sure is apparent.


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## D33R51 (Apr 9, 2012)

Hey SHARP-b-HEAD. Are you aware that a deer does not have a ball and socket joint in it's shoulders ?


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

Definately, shoot it if you get the chance.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Certain posts were removed or cleaned. Sexual Smilies are a NO-NO :nono:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

D33R51 - I never claimed a deer had a ball and socket joint - I may have said the "ball" of the shoulder - refering to the end of the bone that is a mass like a ball - but not a ball and socket


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Macs69 said:


> With so much talk about light vs. heavy arrows, and broadhead construction, I am curious as to how much kinetic energy a 45-47# recurve can generate? Does the inheritent inability of a light bow negate the ability to cast a heavy arrow right off the bat?
> 
> I have a 65# (yes, 20 pounds heavier) Martin Super Diablo, and I'm shocked about how poorly it penetrates my bag target with a 2216 in comparison to my 70# Mathews MR5. Yes, penetration on a bag target is inconsequential, but it sure is apparent.


Not at all. Without trying to engage you in a debate of FOC... that would in a word be center of gravity or CG to real world flight... FOC stands for Forward of Center and is a measure of balance. Light bows with light arrows and a medium to moderate FOC location, when the arrow hits an impediment, such as fur, it encounters drag... immediately. If that arrow for whatever reason "tips", then the arrow with that near center balance point is going to follow wherever that center of gravity takes it. If it should tip to the left, the arrow center is going to move to the left, or if to the right, that arrow center will move to the right, and the subsequent penetration is going to be impeded to a great degree.... with the arrow trying to fly sideways into the animal. 

Sharpbroadhead talks about well tuned arrows and penetration. This is an area that I have to begrudgingly give him his due... as much as it pains me... :grin: However, even a perfectly tuned arrow, if the cg is not just right, can suffer these penetration anamolies.. say if the animal moves etc. A well forward cg... or FOC some distance forward.... say 25 or 30% forward, closely follows the broadhead. Any dislocation due to impact drag/forces is minimal due to the arrows weighted forend and the arrows quick recovery to follow the center of gravity. The center of gravity has a very short arm from the point... adding greatly to the arrows stability in penetration.

It is this phenomena that allows for a 45# bow to penetrate as deeply as your 65# Diablo when your 65 pound bow has a normally weighted (7-11% FOC) and heavier arrows even. My numbers might be off on your bow a little, but not much. As long as the spine is compensated for as you weight the front of your arrow, you will be surprised at the result.

Much Aloha.... :beer:


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## Macs69 (Jan 2, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Not at all. Without trying to engage you in a debate of FOC... that would in a word be center of gravity or CG to real world flight... FOC stands for Forward of Center and is a measure of balance. Light bows with light arrows and a medium to moderate FOC location, when the arrow hits an impediment, such as fur, it encounters drag... immediately. If that arrow for whatever reason "tips", then the arrow with that near center balance point is going to follow wherever that center of gravity takes it. If it should tip to the left, the arrow center is going to move to the left, or if to the right, that arrow center will move to the right, and the subsequent penetration is going to be impeded to a great degree.... with the arrow trying to fly sideways into the animal.
> 
> Sharpbroadhead talks about well tuned arrows and penetration. This is an area that I have to begrudgingly give him his due... as much as it pains me... :grin: However, even a perfectly tuned arrow, if the cg is not just right, can suffer these penetration anamolies.. say if the animal moves etc. A well forward cg... or FOC some distance forward.... say 25 or 30% forward, closely follows the broadhead. Any dislocation due to impact drag/forces is minimal due to the arrows weighted forend and the arrows quick recovery to follow the center of gravity. The center of gravity has a very short arm from the point... adding greatly to the arrows stability in penetration.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! That is exactly the kind of answer that I come on this site for!!!!!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I am not of the heavy arrow camp or the light arrow camp I run right down the middle - looking for an arrow in the 8-10 GPP for hunting - how ever I am a firm believer in FOC both for hunting and target not because it gives you more penetration (which it does) but, because an arrow with more FOC is more accurate and forgiving to errors in your shot sequence.

We as traditional archers fixate on the bow and limbs and want an arrow that tunes to the bow but, field and Olympic archers start with the perfect arrow and want to tune the bow to that. The Oly guys go as far as to have custom tungsten points made for their arrows just to get more FOC because it is more accurate and stable at long ranges. The more FOC you can get out there the quicker your arrow recovers from paradox and or any other errors, limb hits, ect that might happen.

We fixate on forgiving bows - a forgiving arrow is much easier to quantify and achieve,

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - at the distances most of us shoot - yards or less - FOC is irrelevant. Byron Ferguson in his book Become the Arrow said it best - if an arrow is tuned it more than likely in an acceptable FOC. Ken Beck of Black Widow said traditional archers don't even need to give FOC a thought becuase it is meaningless at the distances we shoot.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken

I disagree as you know every single point counts and the difference between 1st and 5th might be 4 arrows being 1/4 of an inch out. I am working hard to build the best possible grouping arrow I can - your 11 count is strictly a factor of how tight your groups are. I am making slow changes to my arrow and shooting 300 rounds at 25 yards recording the scores and closing in on the the best possible arrow for my set up. FOC absolutely effects our grouping at 20 yards just look at how heavy the tips weigh that guys are shooting indoor.

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Well I have 17 or 18% FOC and average in the 270's with my hunting bow shot off the shelf and with my light weight hunting arrows. Byron ferguson shoots aspirin out of the air and consistently makes some pretty amazing shots with the same FOC. Believe what you want - but I think all of this FOC stuff - especially the EFOC is a fad


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

It's funny, and maybe willmshed the light on how little I know about finding the perfect arrow other that just pure dumb luck....

I started shooting the CXL 250 full length with a 100 grain point and a 29.3 grain insert out of my 41# widow drawn to 29.25"+-

They kept showing up weak so I went to an 85 grain point which to me seemed insane...imshot that exact setup at the worlds IBO in PA and placed 3rd I went to the ASA Classic and won it......got back home and still not happy with the forgiveness of the arrow I replaced the 85 grain point with a 125 moved my strike plate out maybe 1/16" and WOW!!!!, these arrow just came alive!!!

I don't claim to know it all about tuning but sometimes changing ever so slight will make your groups go from 4" at 20 to slamming them all together...I've now got an arrow that shot good to the absolute best setup I've ever had...shot a tough tournament this weekend 25 targets scored a 235 much more forgiveness.

I DO NOT believe in extreme FOC however I know that Tuning your FOC will give you a mouch more forgiving set up.


Dewayne


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

18% is pretty darn high - FOC in terms of the good doctor I would agree is a fad - but, I would think that you ended up at 18% as you looked for a more constant and accurate arrow - I saw a discernible difference when I went from 13% foc to 20% and the biggest difference was in how far out my bad shots were more FOC smoothed out the yips (which we all have)

Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Dewayne

I am shooting the maxima Blues and saw the same thing when I went from 85 to 125 and adjusted center shot - night and day.

The little bit you give up in FPS is more than made up by the forgiving nature of the arrow.

I don't claim to know all be all for tuning - more of the keep throwing it on the wall and see what sticks school - just trying to be a little more scientific this time around.

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am sorry - I hit the keys wrong - my FOC is between 14 and 15 %


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken I too think EFOC is EBS I heard of a guy shooting a 27" carbon with a 300 grain head and 50 gr. Insert??? Are you kidding me???

However in Larry Wise book he talks about perfect FOC for target competition being between 12-16% if I remember correctly.


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I know - there are guys on here posting about using 100 grain inserts and 300 grain heads - are they out of their mind?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I know - there are guys on here posting about using 100 grain inserts and 300 grain heads - are they out of their mind?


Nope. They tuned well and group as good as my ability will allow. Plus they penetrate awesome for a 47lb recurve at 145fps. I won't shoot outside of 20yds as I've not been shooting long enough but they'll do the job on anything inside that distance.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well my 47lb bow shoots a 348 grain arrow 214 fps and I can shoot plenty accurate to 40 yards and never had an issue with penetration - 145fps - my gosh - if you misjudged distance by as little as a few yards you could miss the entire target


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## nelliott (Feb 22, 2008)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> That thread is closed. All's well that ends well lmao. It's funny that you mentioned me. Sharp is pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to this bow stuff and pretty much tells it like it is. I think it would be wise if you listened to what he says instead of going around half coc.ked boasting about how much superior your new super duper arrows are that you've not killed anything with yet.


OH NO!!!! It appears that one of my partners in crime has fallen to the vicious red line syndrome!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

henro said:


> I won't shoot outside of 20yds as I've not been shooting long enough.


Ken and Dewayne have been shooting and killing deer with stick bows for a long time you might pay attention to what they have to say.

145 fps - you can kill a deer with a garden spade as well but that doesn't make it the most effective way to do it.

Matt


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ken and Dewayne have been shooting and killing deer with stick bows for a long time you might pay attention to what they have to say.
> 
> 145 fps - you can kill a deer with a garden spade as well but that doesn't make it the most effective way to do it.
> 
> Matt


I'm not good enough yet with my recurve to hunt at a further distance. I only got it this year. I know my limits. Shooting a lighter arrow isn't going to instantly bring my ability up to shoot at double the distance. I can put the arrow in the kill zone at any range inside of 20 yards so there's no issues.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not a competive shooter but I've been killing critters with arrows for along time and I have found that I like a happy medium

On my recurve I am running around 530 at 194 fps with an Foc 18.97

The energy is 44.3 ft-lbs

To achieve these numbers I am using a 100 grain insert and a 125 grain head

I have been very pleased with this combo and it shoots flat enough and hits hard

Now the crossbow I just set up for my daughter is shooting a 450 grain arrow with an Foc of 18.29

I am using a 110 grain insert with a 125 Woodsman and it is shooting 300 fps and putting out 90. Ft-lbs 

It's a hammer and she can hit a playing card at 50 yds with just a front rest 

Btw if my setup was shooting 145 fps I would rethink my set up


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

at 145 fps it is going to take a loooooooong time to bet good at more than spitting distance


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm telling you get a garden spade good and sharp and with a nice straight drop you would kill them clean so long as you caught them right behind the head.

thanks

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well - back to the doe - I am going hunting later today - maybe I will see her and get a shot at her - good thing is it really cooled off up here - so I can leave her hang over night if I do get her.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

I'd like to hear what ya'll have to say about my setup... Like I said I like to hit it in the middle with weight and FOC.
60# recurve, shooting two setups and out to 25yds they hit almost identically with no real drop with the heavier arrow. 
1. GT 5575 trads cut to 29.25", with a wrap, with 100gr inserts and 125gr Thunderheads, total weight 515gr
2. CE 6075 (basspro brand) cut to 29.5" with 100gr inserts and same Thunderheads, total weight 570gr, both weighed on my grain scale. 

last chrono results: 187 and 184 respectively on the local shop chrono. Shooting 3 under, drawing 28.5", 14strand D97 string, wool string puffs, using a mark on the shaft as reference for a spotter to make sure I get to full draw for the chrono test. Me thinks this'll do for bout anything I wanna chunk an arrow at.

Dave


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

uabdave said:


> I'd like to hear what ya'll have to say about my setup... Like I said I like to hit it in the middle with weight and FOC.
> 60# recurve, shooting two setups and out to 25yds they hit almost identically with no real drop with the heavier arrow.
> 1. GT 5575 trads cut to 29.25", with a wrap, with 100gr inserts and 125gr Thunderheads, total weight 515gr
> 2. CE 6075 (basspro brand) cut to 29.5" with 100gr inserts and same Thunderheads, total weight 570gr, both weighed on my grain scale.
> ...


Very similar to what I am shooting especially arrow 1 

I like it


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

either a heavy slow arrow or a fast light arrow will kill anything - all else being equal - just a fast arrow will be more forgiving of errors in distances judgement.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

btw - as is obvious - I am not hunting - Thunderstorms


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## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread. Kinda wondering where it turned to FOC, but not that interested to find out  I just tuned in to see if Ken had finished his quest.

For the record. When I did some FOC work ten or so years ago I saw benefits up to about 18/19% after that not so much. SoI shott for the upper teens and good flight.

Still looking for info on the new arrow material too.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

pm'd you dan


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm not totally against the 145 fps...I shoot a 50# primitive bow made from Osage and that's what it shoots when I shoot a 650 grain arrow...the only problem is my gaps I can shoot point on at 15 yards but at 20 I'm 8-10" low in only 5 yards....once they start falling they fall like a rock.

I never could figure what my gap for 25 was it had to have been 18" or more.


Dewayne


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

As a longbow shooter , and a D shape Hill style longbow shooter at that , I can testify to 150fps bows , with 500gn arrows killing a lot of animals ....... 9.5 - 10 gns pr pound

My Titan just does it quicker ...... with 9gns pp


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## teamorion22 (Sep 27, 2010)

to the op about the op I say stick her if you get the chance, seems like the right thing to do


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

hoping to let the air out of her today - gonna hunt as soon as I am done with work


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> hoping to let the air out of her today - gonna hunt as soon as I am done with work


Outstanding! Best of luck with finding her and getting her put down. Gotta tell ya: I'm impressed with your hunting ethics; I run into a lotta guys who couldn't be bothered to "waste" a tag, or their hunting time on hunting an animal for strictly humane reasons.

:thumbs_up


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

no luck - didn't see a thing


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

hope you get that thing soon Sharp


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't think she is having any difficulties - like I said earlier - the landowner saw her in early spring with the entire arrow sticking out of her. She has since had two fawns and the arrow is obviously broke off - so I am sure she is doing fine and will do fine even if I don't shoot her - I just figured I would use my doe tag on her so that other people don't see an animal with an arrow in it - bad name for bowhunting and all.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I don't think she is having any difficulties - like I said earlier - the landowner saw her in early spring with the entire arrow sticking out of her. She has since had two fawns and the arrow is obviously broke off - so I am sure she is doing fine and will do fine even if I don't shoot her - I just figured I would use my doe tag on her so that other people don't see an animal with an arrow in it - bad name for bowhunting and all.



In the meantime, we'll all be waiting patiently for you to start a "Doe with 2 arrows in it" thread. :wink:









:lol:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Lol


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I did a mercy killing a couple of decades ago. I shot a small buck with 3 legs, it was missing a hind leg. It was on Aberdeen Proving Ground and probably was hit by shrapnel down range. It had a terrible pronounced limb when walking but could run easily.


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