# Attention All 05 Allegiance Owners



## archernga23 (Nov 18, 2003)

oh boy here we go again ... Sure hope this doesn't turn out like the last post started on ELITE ..... Everyone bashing and complaining about people's business ethics ... blah ...blah..blah ... I think that if the products are as good as promised with attention to detail and at the price point stated you are definitely going to be contending with the BIG GUNS of Archery and should be successful for a long time 




Kate and Kevin , 

I wish you guys the best in both Marriage and your new company ..... 

Can't wait to see the photos of the bows ...


Mike


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## grouse (Dec 9, 2003)

ELITEARCHERYCEO said:


> Elite Archery not only offers High Preformance After Market Modular Cams, but you can purchase a set of offset after market pockets. This will alow you to bring your centershot in line with the center of the grip. With these cams you will be able to pick up 5 to 10 fps, all this while keeping your same strings and cables!
> 
> "Elite Upgrade Package" $120.00 MSRP
> 
> ...



Awesome!!! I suppose these will be effective on the old glory as well?


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

> Awesome!!! I suppose these will be effective on the old glory as well?
> Reply With Quote


 are they a color ? black or silver ?


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## alugnutt (Apr 22, 2005)

Why would somebody want to put after market limb pockets and cams on when they could just sell there 05 and use that extra $120 to buy a brand new bow with a full warranty instead of using last years bow and voiding the warranty at the same time?"


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## orthopt (Mar 12, 2005)

*05 allegiance*

Hey guys;
Again Congradulations From us here in the state of Colorado on your wedding, and Kevin I hope all has gone well with your cervical issues or neck. 
When will these new products be available, and if you need any help here in Co. Please let me know for distribution etc. 
Thanks and Happy Holidays
Eric


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## Ozarker (Oct 24, 2005)

I think it's great that there offering options. Pockets, Cams, etc. If ya don't like it don't buy it. Alot of things have aftermarket parts that replace factory parts..guns, cars, atvs, motorcycles...why not have more options for archery. I also can't wait to see the new bows. If they will get a widely distributed dealer network they will probably sell well. The prices look good.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

But your husband ( former designer for Bowtech) came on this forum and infomed all of us that Bowtechs have severe limb breakage problems. Now you expect me to put your limb pocket and cams on a defective product line??

This is the wierdest marketing effort I have EVER witnessed. I am in favor of after market work , parts and options no doubt about it and I am sure this is a quality product to be sure…

But does anybody smell the HYPOCRISY that the former designer of Bowtech who warned all of us that Bowtechs are NO GOOD and DEFECTIVE from a limb design standpoint and perhaps financially so UNSTABLE that they may not be around in '07. Machined specialty limb pocktets for the Allegience model??And there cams put out more speed stressing ( I would assume) an already precarious limb arrangment ..

I want to know the facts. Do Bowtechs have a high limb failure rate or not?? If they do as you said they did why in the world would chose to make some money by making after market assesories and then specifically marketing them to be put on a bow line that you believe has ( and you warned everybody) a high probabaility of failure. If these bows fail or continue to fail while sporting your after market assesories there are going to be a lot of mad people out there as I would have to think they are going to blame it on your additions and not the defective limbs that you say exist


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## Bow1 (Sep 14, 2004)

*Hey I bet*

That these upgrades will solve the problem!!!! You guys can thank me later for figuring that out, sign me up for about seven of them>:thumbs_do   :secret: Not anymore, I have figured it out.

Keith


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## bohntr (Jun 3, 2002)

I to am for after market add-ons, grips, strings, love them. But limb pockets? I think a different rest solves all the windage problems people had with the 05 Bowtechs. I do know a new rest is a lot cheaper than the limb pockets your fledgling company is offering.
Now Bowtech has solved the center shot issue with the release of the 06 line of bows and the off set pockets. 
I can't understand why, you would make an offering like this, unless your new bow line is a complete nock-off of the Bowtech line. Where the actual parts you are using for your bows are completely compatible with another companies products.
I am sure that if someone fits one of your pockets to their 05 Bowtech and has limb problems you would say "I told you so". But then Bowtech would say to the bow owner "sorry the alteration of the original product has led to your lifetime warrenty null and void".
For the average bow owner this type of customization of equipment is unessesary. 

I truely wish you all the luck in your endeavour.

Best of luck 
Regards
Allan


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## ELITEARCHERYCEO (Nov 11, 2005)

To all Bowtech shooters

First off these are not the same parts that will be used on Elite Archery bows. These are parts made to specifically fix a torque problem and reduce the stress on the limbs and allow someone to gain 5-12 fps on their bow.

The limb pockets will reduce the side torque on the limbs, thereby reducing the chance or possibility of limb breakage. 

Yes, a new rest will allow you enough windage adjustment, but the string is still 3/16th off center of the grip. With the string being that far off center, it will increase hand torque and twist during the shot, and increases the chance that you will hit your arm when you shoot, this problem was known at Bowtech in 05', but could not be implemented because of the use of single cams on the same risers. 

If someone were to buy a used 05 Allegiance, they have no warranty. If they break a set a limbs, and have no warranty because they were not the original owner, Elite will sell them a set of new limbs, and put a warranty on the limbs, the cost of new limbs would be $60.00 including the warranty. 

There have been several threads asking if you could retro fit an 05 Bowtech with 06 pockets and cams, and Elite has received numerous e-mails requesting these parts, so that is the reason for offering them. 


Kate Strother
ELITE ARCHERY CEO


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

hey what about the OLD GLORY ??? limbs ? cams ? 3-D LIMBS ?


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## ELITEARCHERYCEO (Nov 11, 2005)

*Yes they will*

Pa Jay,

Yes, they will work on an Old Glory as well. 

They will work on any 05 Bowtech with a Binary cam, the defender riser is thinner than an Allegiance or Old Glory so it takes a different pocket. The defender offset pocket will also be available.


Kate Strother
ELITE ARCHERY CEO


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

just camo limbs or will their be 3-d limbs ? thanks!


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## KEN-813 (Jun 26, 2002)

WOW What a nice guy you are Kevin fixing the design mistakes you made on your ex now a competitors bow company's bows.
Thanks for your dedication


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## Elite Archery 1 (Nov 26, 2005)

*The reason for no offset pockets on 05 Bowtech's*

Ken,

I changed my username from Bowtech R & D 1.:thumbs_up 

Elite is not fixing a mistake I made. The decision for the 05' Bowtech line was made to not stock two different pockets or two seperate risers. This was not my decision. There would have been a set of pockets for dual cams and one set for single cams, or different risers, a decision was made by management, not to inventory the additional parts. 

For the 06' Bowtech line I offset the pockets and inset cut the riser because Bowtech only has the dual cam, so the string is in the same location in regards to the limb fork on all Bowtech's. Does Diamond have offset pockets, NO, Why? Because of the single cam, if you offset the pockets and inset cut the riser you wouldn't have enough fletching clearance from the cables.

Probably every bow designer has had to design things that they thought might not be the best way to design or manufacture parts, or the best solution to a solve a problem, sometimes decisions are out of your hands. 

As an Insurance agent I bet your companies send regulation changes you don't agree with, does that stop you from selling policies? 

Have a great day

Kevin Strother


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I'm in. I want the cams for my Old Glory and my Constitution!!!!!!!:thumbs_up 

And some of my customers want the cams as well!


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## alugnutt (Apr 22, 2005)

So when will all these great parts be out for MArtin MAthews Hoyt and other bows? No inside info on them. You are only talking about Bowtech parts and always saying pictures soon. But never any pictures. Now you have limbs with warranty after that was mentioned. Lets see somthing besides smoke.


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## KEN-813 (Jun 26, 2002)

Elite Archery 1 said:


> Ken,
> 
> 
> As an Insurance agent I bet your companies send regulation changes you don't agree with, does that stop you from selling policies?
> ...


Yes IT Does,
Do I always agree with changes that I don't believe in NO, but I am 100% honest with ALL of my clients and tell them up front of the differences if they are a benefit to them or not and their risks, and let them choose if the product is the right choice for their needs., I would rather have my clients choose another product that is right for them and not a POS, even if it means that they do not do business with me and go else ware, then buy it and regret it and not support me or my products.

There is a difference in what I do to you, and I understand this, The big difference in my business is that I can be sued and loose my license and appointment with companies for not fully disclosing limitations to products.


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## bry2476 (Jul 9, 2005)

Kevin and Kate, Good luck with your new business. Don't pay any attention to the negative comments. Glad someone is coming out with something new and will fix some past problems with Bowtechs. Are you guys going to be at the ATA show? Looking forward to seeing your products.


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## jhpate (Dec 11, 2003)

*sounds great*

Thanks for the info. That sounds great, I look forward to hearing and seeing more on the limbs and pockets. 
thanks again


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## camo-timber (Mar 22, 2003)

How much $$ for just the pockets?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

The offset pockets won't work on the '05 risers well because the limb pocket locking screw hole is on the same side of the riser as the offset in the new pocket. The locking screw can't counteract the offset limb pocket torque, especially if there's any play between the riser and pocket bearing surface. What you'll have will be limb pocket lean and loss of centershot,, more than intended and possibly more limb problems than the original pocket.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

But then,,,,,,, I could be,,,, "wrong"


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

But then again,,,,,,, I could be right:star: Looking at my '05 Allegiance, the limb bolt hole in the riser is centered in the end of the riser. The limb bolt hole in the end of the riser is not centered in my Tribute and looks to be offset about the same amount as the limb pocket itself, about 1/8". Not going to work because you can't have the limb bolt in the center of the limb with an offset pocket and still have the limb bolt centered in the end of the riser


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## elroy (Nov 5, 2005)

Posted by BT R&D1
The truth is I have no affiliation with any other company. No, I was never in marketing... 

Yes I designed all the bows, but you can't fix a problem when they don't want to lose the speed by reducing the preload, which is what is needed. Limb material also enters the equation, Bowtech uses... 

..... that yes there have been limb issues for over a year, like most companies that use solid billet, you get a couple of batches of bad material and with the pre-stress that is on the limbs they break or splinter. I tried taking some of the pre-stress off but was told not to, couldn't lose any speed I was told, and not to make the energy under the curve any greater in order to regain the speed, kinda screwed at that point.

HHHHHMMMMMM:thumbs_do


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Would those saying that things can't be done please step aside so that the people who are doing them can get through. 

The earth is flat, man can't fly and we will never go to the moon. 

Competition is great, change is wonderful. Just sit back and watch the show and enjoy the popcorn. This is the most exciting bow company to come along in years and at this time not many people have even seen one of their products. 

The crow is in the pot and now it is only a question of who will get to have the very filling meal.


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## alugnutt (Apr 22, 2005)

I bet nobody has seen any products. I bet not for a long time either. What are the $60 limbs made of?


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## 3DHoytShooter (Aug 2, 2003)

Wow, those are some great prices.


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## Ratus (Nov 5, 2004)

> Elite will sell them a set of new limbs, and put a warranty on the limbs, the cost of new limbs would be $60.00 including the warranty.


Kate or Kevin.

Can you tell me what material and manufracturing process will be use for your replacement Bowtech limbs?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

jim p said:


> Would those saying that things can't be done please step aside so that the people who are doing them can get through.
> 
> The earth is flat, man can't fly and we will never go to the moon.
> 
> ...


 Jim P, I'm just saying that I have both the '05 Allegiance and '06 Tribute here in front of me and aftermarket offset limb pockets made to fit '05 risers won't work with stock BowTech limbs. An aftermarket limb will be necessary with an offset hole in them to accomodate the offset limb pocket. One could ream out the hole in the riser for the limb bolt but that's not a job for many archers to tackle.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

alugnutt said:


> I bet nobody has seen any products. I bet not for a long time either. What are the $60 limbs made of?


 I'm wondering that also as dealer cost for replacement BowTech limbs is more than $60.00! 
I'm also thinking that if aftermarket cams are offered for BowTech bows that will make them shoot faster, with what modifactions to the string and cable lengths? If standard string and cable lengths are recomended, the limb preload on a modified bow will be the same. This is contrary to Kevin's statement that he wanted BowTech to reduce the limb preload. If the supposed limb preload remains the same, the supposed "problem" with limbs will be the same,, if there ever was a design problem with the preload.

I've had no problems with any of my stock bows in the last 33 years except with a mid 80's PSE. The only bows I've ever had problems with had different cams and cables/strings than what the bow came with. These hybrid bows were what I was playing with, and I paid for it too:crutch: :brick:


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## elroy (Nov 5, 2005)

alugnutt said:


> I bet nobody has seen any products. I bet not for a long time either. What are the $60 limbs made of?


Quote from Elitearcheryceo:

Elite Archery Inc. will be using the highest quality material from Gordon.


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## Elite Archery 1 (Nov 26, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Jim P, I'm just saying that I have both the '05 Allegiance and '06 Tribute here in front of me and aftermarket offset limb pockets made to fit '05 risers won't work with stock BowTech limbs. An aftermarket limb will be necessary with an offset hole in them to accomodate the offset limb pocket. One could ream out the hole in the riser for the limb bolt but that's not a job for many archers to tackle.



WWAG,

The limb bolt hole in the 06 Tribute riser is not offset, it is centered, take your bow apart and measure it, if you don't believe me. The hole is obviously larger than the bolt, so it can move toward the side that is offset. 

The first 06' Bowtech proto bows I built used an 05 riser and I just made an offset pocket, worked fine for getting center shot. The limb bolt slot is also cut to allow the use of offset pockets, same thing here, I used an 05 limb for prototyping, the 06 limbs don't have an offset limb bolt slot, if they did you'd have a top and bottom limb. 

You obviously are a very loyal Bowtech shooter, but to say that things you've never seen or tried will not work is obviously just a slam in order to persuade people not to try them. You always tell people that bash the Bowtech's when someone ask a question in regards to opinions on the bows, to allow that person to go try them and then make their decision or opinion of their like or dislike of the product, why do you have a negative opinion of a competitive product you know nothing about? You don't have to buy or try any of Elite's products, but they do work and are manufactured using the highest quality of materials.

Compare the following.

Elite Laminated carbon limbs, Bowtech solid billet limbs

Elite risers machined from a solid block, Bowtech machined from an extrusion

Elite uses Winner's choice strings/cables, Bowtech uses in house made strings

Elite limb pockets machined from solid block, Bowtech pockets are machined from an extrusion

Elite has a limb pivot design that assure the limb can't move or shift, Bowtech's limb alignment is dependent upon the machining tolerance of the pocket and that the limb is within .002 to keep the limb from shifting in the pocket

Elite cams are faster than Bowtech cams, 

As to the dealer cost of Bowtech limbs, I can't tell you why they cost so much, maybe a HUGE markup from Bowtech??????

Sincerely
Kevin Strother


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

Elite Archery 1 said:


> WWAG,
> 
> The limb bolt hole in the 06 Tribute riser is not offset, it is centered, take your bow apart and measure it, if you don't believe me. The hole is obviously larger than the bolt, so it can move toward the side that is offset.
> 
> ...



One solidly hit nail. :thumbs_up


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

My limb bolt hole in the riser is offset as you can see in the pics


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Nother


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

The limb bolt hole in the riser measures 3/8 on an inch, not nearly enough to allow enough lateral shift to accomodate the approximately 1/8 inch in pocket offset.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote. 

"Elite limb pockets machined from solid block, Bowtech pockets are machined from an extrusion"

Hmm, where do aluminum blocks come from??


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

This is fun,, I butt heads with a few engineers at work too:laugh: 

I gave them an idea for a "remover" for the 3500 pound molds we use on one of our machines. This was so we wouldn't have to pull them off the spindle by hand once they were lifted up with the chain hoist. I showed them how I wanted it,, very simple air cylinder and valving. What they came up with 5 months later was just wrong and simply flew in the face of common physics. First time they tried it,, it broke 
This was on a $750,000.00 machine too and now 3 months later, it just sits there.
Guess we'll just have to put up with shoulder injuries:thumbs_up


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## buglebus (Mar 30, 2003)

*Kevin Strother*

Do you not, in fact, have a three year non-compete clause agreement with Bowtech. How is it that you are able to be involved, in any way, with another company of similar nature?

Also, I understand that you are upset with Bowtech but why the big deal about the limbs? You and I both know that limbs are taken to the breaking point intentionally to qualify the failure mode, mostly to better understand how limbs were broken that have been sent back from a dealer. And it should be noted that many, if not most, of the bow manufacturers out there use the same basic limb material from the same company - Gordon. If one company is having material problems then it usually follows that others are as well. That is beside the point however because Bowtech is not really having any unusual or out of the norm limb problems.

Feel free to call me any time to discuss this. My cell number is 814.482.0190. 

Jon E. Silks


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Walks. I have seen some of your handy work and I bet you could design an offset limb pocket if you wanted. But if it is impossible then maybe a new riser upgrade will be in order. I would like to see a bow kit offered at a lower price than the fully assembled bow. Send me matching parts and I can get the bow together and have fun and save some money in the process. Maybe this could be offered to the pro shops. This could keep the assembly cost down and give the pro shops the opportunity to make some extra money.

I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Work smart be happy and lets have some new toys next year.


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## elroy (Nov 5, 2005)

The only way you can get the offset pocket to work and still be able to adjust # is if the hole in the limbs were big enouph to accomodate the limb bolt being offset on the limb. So you may need to put your bowtech limbs in a drill press for this to work. In essence the bolt can not sit squarely in the middle of the limb for this to work.:thumbs_do 

If you take prestress out of the limbs this may or may not have much effect on the limbs failure (it would take alot of releaf) rate but will equate to more felt resonance in the bow itself as the more weight you have pulling in opposite directions (parallel limbs) the faster the limbs can disapate sonic resonance from the string and limbs. If you add more power under the power curve the limbs store engergy in static deformation which will put more stress on the limbs at full draw and create more unused energy that the limbs will have to dispell upon release. Again more felt hand shock. The draw force curve will have to come up quicker and/or drop off faster making the cams more aggressive not smoother as being advertised. The ata would also have to change to take prestress (the supposed problem) out of the limbs. This will change the string sizes and possibly the brace highth. :thumbs_do 
Another question is the valitity of selling another bianary cam not made or licenced by bowtech. Is not this what pse and bear sued bowtech for in the first place?:thumbs_do 

If someone wants to put after market products on there bow than thats there choice but they do need to know the effects of what they do and the consiquences of what can happen and understand that this will void there bowtech warrenty and any damages will come out of there own pocket book.:thumbs_do 

All in all it is my oppinion that things do not add up or come out smelling rosey:killpain: :fencing:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

jim p said:


> Walks. I have seen some of your handy work and I bet you could design an offset limb pocket if you wanted. But if it is impossible then maybe a new riser upgrade will be in order. I would like to see a bow kit offered at a lower price than the fully assembled bow. Send me matching parts and I can get the bow together and have fun and save some money in the process. Maybe this could be offered to the pro shops. This could keep the assembly cost down and give the pro shops the opportunity to make some extra money.
> 
> I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Work smart be happy and lets have some new toys next year.


 I allready got the problem covered JimP:thumbs_up 

Fer only 49.99 I'll ship ya a pair of these bad boys and ship 'em free to boot. They'll work with Kev's limb pockets and eliminate the need to egg out the limb bolt hole in the riser on each end:thumbs_up


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## Elite Archery 1 (Nov 26, 2005)

*New Bow Designers*

I guess all of you that post about bow designs and whether something will work or how you make a bow faster should apply at Bowtech or some other manufacturer for a job or just start your own company and revolutionize the industry.:thumbs_up 

If you think the only way to make a bow faster is to stress the limbs more, or by storing more energy,  you obviously haven't performed a draw curve on an 06' Allegiance with a smooth mod versus an 05' Allegiance. There is a considerable difference in the SE/PDF the smooth have a lower SE/PDF but they will shoot the same speed 99% of the time, why do they have the same velocity if the smooth mod stores less energy???????

I'm really not here to argue with you, so post anything you like, this is a free country, we can just wait and see if the products that my wife Kate is offering through Elite perform as promised. If they don't then you'll be right, if they do ........:teeth: 

Kevin


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## Elite Archery 1 (Nov 26, 2005)

*Cool Bolt*



walks with a gi said:


> I allready got the problem covered JimP:thumbs_up
> 
> Fer only 49.99 I'll ship ya a pair of these bad boys and ship 'em free to boot. They'll work with Kev's limb pockets and eliminate the need to egg out the limb bolt hole in the riser on each end:thumbs_up



WWAG, 

I've been looking for that kind of  bolt, where did you find them???? And are they more expensive than a straight bolt?????:teeth: 

That is a good one, but why would you need the calipers, looks like the bolt has the exact bend you'd need, so can I get them for a reduced cost without the calipers??????? 

Kevin


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## Kelly Johnson (May 22, 2005)

> we can just wait and see if the products that my wife Kate is offering through Elite perform as promised.


So who's sister do I have to take to the freakin' movies to get a pic of these Kev?


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## elroy (Nov 5, 2005)

Elite Archery 1 said:


> I guess all of you that post about bow designs and whether something will work or how you make a bow faster should apply at Bowtech or some other manufacturer for a job or just start your own company and revolutionize the industry.:thumbs_up
> 
> If you think the only way to make a bow faster is to stress the limbs more, or by storing more energy,  you obviously haven't performed a draw curve on an 06' Allegiance with a smooth mod versus an 05' Allegiance. There is a considerable difference in the SE/PDF the smooth have a lower SE/PDF but they will shoot the same speed 99% of the time, why do they have the same velocity if the smooth mod stores less energy???????
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to argue eather and no I don't think thats the only way to make a bow faster infact I think todays speeds are possible in a shootable design at 1/2 the draw weight. (using an idea based on the research done by B Kooi and J. Sparenberg.) But I would not even dream of listing why or how here.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Some questions

How much offset is the pocket?
What type of cams are they? Binary? Single? Twin? Hybred? (I assume binary but patents would be a factor I would assume)
What colour options will the pockets and cams have?
If the pockets are more towards the right (RH bow) would that create clearence issues for the cable and cable guard?
What is the expected shipping date of the upgrade?
Does it come with the full set of modules?


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## The Fella (May 19, 2003)

*REr. Dremel*

Kevin,

In regard to the offset limb bolt....why don't you just manufacture them yourself, I'm sure you can get it done with your DREMEL tool. I heard from a friend of mine who works at PSE that you are very familar with the use of dremel tools in archery. BTW the folks in Tuscon still refer to you as DR. Dremel.


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## Elite Archery 1 (Nov 26, 2005)

The Fella said:


> Kevin,
> 
> In regard to the offset limb bolt....why don't you just manufacture them yourself, I'm sure you can get it done with your DREMEL tool. I heard from a friend of mine who works at PSE that you are very familar with the use of dremel tools in archery. BTW the folks in Tuscon still refer to you as DR. Dremel.



You've got that statement right, most of Bowtechs cam and mod modifications always started out with me making them from JB Weld and using a dremel to shape them. I would get tired of waiting for slow machine shops and just make them myself. A dremel tool is also significantly cheaper than a CNC, yes I have visited PSE numerous times in the past to discuss cams and bows in general. :teeth: I know several of the people that work in R & D there. I really like the looks of the PSE and Browning hyperlite pocket for 06', looks cool IMO and reduces weight, something needed on long riser bows.

Kevin


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Walks. I knew you could do it. Now just make sure that it is long enough that I wont need a bow press when I get my kit bow.

Life is good.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Life is getting better by the min. New cams and pockets for $120. New limbs for $60. Now what can I get a riser for? I'll make my own strings. So maybe I can afford a new bow after all.


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## TxTrapper (Nov 27, 2004)

This is alway's the fun part everybody throwing it out there and something interesting comes of it. I can't wait to see these new bow's. I think with this stuff the consumer deff. comes out a winner. Good job Kate!!!:thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## NVRMISS (Sep 6, 2003)

*Allegience*

Sounds like we need Crackers opinion......Mike where are you?????:nervous s


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## tbailey (Feb 25, 2004)

ttt


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## sjb3 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Kevin*

Will Elites cams for Bowtech bows lock-up like Bowtechs cams will. Congrats and good luck. sjb3


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## elroy (Nov 5, 2005)

sjb3 said:


> Will Elites cams for Bowtech bows lock-up like Bowtechs cams will. Congrats and good luck. sjb3


Actually i beleave the 05 cams are the only ones (from bowtech) that lockup but still a good question.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

elroy said:


> Actually i beleave the 05 cams are the only ones (from bowtech) that lockup but still a good question.


 Correction, the '05's will not lock up if you leave the bow alone and just shoot it,, like BowTech instructs you to do:thumbs_up


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

Walks with a GI,

What are you trying to prove here? 

If Bowtech was admiting their mistakes and releasing these same products you would give nothing but praise.

This guy was on the Bowtech design team, yes, the bows you love soooo much, don't you think he might know what he is talking about?

I have seen your designs, and they are not all that great. Maybe that explains why you aren't on the engineering team at your work and why your recommendation wasn't taken seriously.

We could all look over your products as well and judge them buy the same strict standards you have, and I am sure you would not like the outcome.

Give it a break already, but thanks for keeping this thread TTT, so all the bowtech owners can read about the new products for their bows.


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

You just gonna sit there and take that?!

:boxing: :flame: :rip: :lalala: :fencing:


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Bo Hunter said:


> You just gonna sit there and take that?!
> 
> :boxing: :flame: :rip: :lalala: :fencing:


Where yu been hidin??? 

Oops :sorry: :focus:


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## alugnutt (Apr 22, 2005)

The way I see it is that maybe he intentionally designed the parts the way they were so he could sell these after market parts now. After all, he didn't seem to wait too long after his days at Bowtech to launch these new "better" products and bows. I'd say it looks like he had an agenda long in the making.


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## 8PT (Feb 28, 2003)

*Problem Solution*

Maybe the best solution to the supposed problems would be to just go down and buy a new '06 Bowtech that has already had these problems ironed out. Makes more sense than putting together a used bow with assorted bits and pieces that may or may not work. You would then even have a good, dependable warranty from a reputable company.


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

> Where yu been hidin???


I've been lurking... Being a member of corporate America, as well as a mechanical designer who has had to sign various non-compete and non-disclosure agreements, there is a lot of interesting stuff going on here and I'm very interested to see how things pan out with this whole nightmare.

As far as equipment, I'm very interested to see what Elite has to offer. I've got no loyalties and if they come out with something as fast, cheaper, and better construction (laminated carbon limbs and winners choice string), then I'll buy it!


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## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 5, 2005)

alugnutt said:


> The way I see it is that maybe he intentionally designed the parts the way they were so he could sell these after market parts now. After all, he didn't seem to wait too long after his days at Bowtech to launch these new "better" products and bows. I'd say it looks like he had an agenda long in the making.


You're joking, right?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Shooter X said:


> Walks with a GI,
> 
> What are you trying to prove here?
> 
> ...


 That's funny, I've never read where BowTech admitted that they have a limb problem. On the other hand I did read the claims of one very mad and very fired ex-co-founder. This same co-founder wants to sell you limb pockets that will have you drilling out the riser ends so they will work also.
Kevin seen many limb failures I'm sure and it was his job to push the envelope to find the best parts. BowTech agreed to warranty their bows based on the results and I'm happy with that.

As far as my designs,, what designs in "the market" are you talking about  

I've made an arrow rest and a bow press and use them all the time with no failures and none are currently for sale. I have a job I'm committed to and dosen't allow time to start my own business :drum:


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

I guess I’ll have to explain the obvious to you…

Here is the response to your thread:

Of course bowtech will not admit the issues, a recall of that magnitude would probably bankrupt them.
Yes, we all read the thread about Kevin, big deal, get over it…
Maybe your OK with your 2005 bowtech as is, if that is the case, then this thread is NOT for you, it is for everyone else that wants to correct/improve the design of their bow.
Yes, of course I am speaking of your rest and bow press, the ones that you have posted pictures of over and over again.
If you can’t start your own business, don’t bash those that are trying, no excuses needed.
Bowtech is a great company, let their product speak to that, stop trying to defend them, they don’t need your help. Like every other company they released a product that can be improved, if Kevin thinks he has a solution, then let him! End of story.

I thought it was EXTREMELY unusual that bowtech would release models for just one year (2005) and then do a full redesign, but it all made sense when I read Kevin’s thread. 

Trust me, I bit my tongue through your first few negative posts regarding this subject but enough is enough, there is no need for you to bash, move on.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Not bashing at all, just pointing out that the thread was for '05 Allegiance owners and after market limb pockets that won't work with the stock, center drilled risers. PERIOD. The risers WILL have to be re-drilled, can't offset the limb bolt more than 1/8 inch and expect it to still aline the 5/16" bolt in a 3/8" hole,, pretty elementary 

Probably saved Kev a bunch of time and grief by pointing it out too


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

Walks... Tell me, was Kevin kind enough to explain to you how it is going to work? That was awfully nice of him considering your attitude on this subject. Lets face it, you have no clue what he has in store. You would have given any other person a chance to get the product out before commenting. But since this is the person that is no longer with bowtech, the company that you are so loyal to, you have to put your 2 cents in right? We can go on about this all you want, keep it coming if you like...


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

*ofset limb pockets*

If I am reading the post correctly, the pocket compensates for the limb alignment in relationship to the riser, not the bolt hole.
If you had a limb with the bolt hole off center, the lateral stress mould be uneven during the draw cycle. You would also have to make top limbs and bottom limbs, and right hand left hand limbs (t&B for alignment, l&R for stress transfer on the cam). This would have created a situation where you would have had even more parts than just 2 sets of pockets, and would have been more expensive than just two pockets.
What I am getting at is , with all due respect to Walks with a Gi.......I think you are misunderstanding how the pocket will work. It isn't like the pocket needs to shift THAT much.
I realize that I am a backyard bow builder, but I think that if Mr. Strothers (who is not a one time wonder in archery engineering) builds something which is either of poor quality or inapropriate for use, he would be shooting hisself in the foot.
As for the accusations (on all sides of this debate...Bowtech vs. Elite...vs...???) I think I speak for a whole bunch of AT members when I say this......the situation between Mr. and Mrs. Strother and bowtech is theirs, and should stay that way. Let the bows speak for themselves, and the parties work their differences out in private. Everyone involved has too much at stake to destroy their personal reputations over this.


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## elroy (Nov 5, 2005)

alwayslookin said:


> If I am reading the post correctly, the pocket compensates for the limb alignment in relationship to the riser, not the bolt hole.
> If you had a limb with the bolt hole off center, the lateral stress mould be uneven during the draw cycle. You would also have to make top limbs and bottom limbs, and right hand left hand limbs (t&B for alignment, l&R for stress transfer on the cam). This would have created a situation where you would have had even more parts than just 2 sets of pockets, and would have been more expensive than just two pockets.
> What I am getting at is , with all due respect to Walks with a Gi.......I think you are misunderstanding how the pocket will work. It isn't like the pocket needs to shift THAT much.
> I realize that I am a backyard bow builder, but I think that if Mr. Strothers (who is not a one time wonder in archery engineering) builds something which is either of poor quality or inapropriate for use, he would be shooting hisself in the foot.
> As for the accusations (on all sides of this debate...Bowtech vs. Elite...vs...???) I think I speak for a whole bunch of AT members when I say this......the situation between Mr. and Mrs. Strother and bowtech is theirs, and should stay that way. Let the bows speak for themselves, and the parties work their differences out in private. Everyone involved has too much at stake to destroy their personal reputations over this.


Simple 3/8" hole in the limbs 5/16" bolt. To shift 1/8" to center in the riser MEANS redrilling the limb bolt hole in the limb period. Which also means having your limb bolt off center on your limb 1/8 of an inch. If it can be done another way I don't see it unless the pocket attaches seperately from the limb which brings up a whole nother set of problems like changed brace highth and #adjustments. I'm not saying it can't be done it just seems like more trouble and more problems than it's worth. I also would not mind seeing a company bring down prices of top quality bows as long as there advertised truthfully with full disclosure of probabilities (with after market components) and makes sure to set them selfs up lawfully as not to leave there customers out to dry in the end. To much of todays archery companies are inflating speeds, miss advertising products and using other peoples ideas without permission. I'd like to see this end at some point and have truth in buisness prevail to were people can actually beleave what they read about a product instead of buying and finding out that the product was misrepresented. I'm sure we've all had this happen with something or other. Like kevin said if it does than:teeth: if not and poeple are left out to dry than there will be people looking like this only time will tell.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Ya'll need to understand that I DO have an '05 Allegiance and an '06 Tribute. The Tribute and Allegiance have holes in the ends of the riser for the limb bolt to pass through to thread into the barrel nut. The difference is that the Tribute's limb bolt through holes are drilled offset,, to accomodate the offset limb pockets. The Allegiance's pockets are centered and so are the limb bolt through holes in the riser. The '06 pockets WILL NOT WORK on the '05 risers because the limb bolt through holes in the '05 risers are centered. You cannot use any type of offset pocket with the '05 risers and still expect to have the limb bolt centered in the limb. If any offset limb pocket were designed to work on the '05 risers, the riser would also have to be modified by re-drilling, or milling the through bolt holes farther towards the cable guard rod.

Just keep your '05 and shoot it or trade it off for an '06 and keep your warranty. I'm keeping my '05 Allegiance for deer hunting, it's perfect for me in every way. No cam lean, no limb cracks, no hand shock, no noise, very accurate and very quiet. It's got some blood on it but that's what's supposed to happen with a hunting bow. The Tribute will be for specialty hunting because it's shorter for ground blinds and "roving" or scout/hunting that I like to do.

Really though, I just like to have lots of bows. Maybe Kevin will send me one for saving him all the time on the offset pockets


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

*Outside the box...*

As they always say, engineers have to think "outside the box" (am I the only engineer that despises that saying, among the many other buzz words?).

I didn't read where Kevin said anything about using the existing bolt hole for draw weight adjustment. Here's how I could see it easily working:

On the new limb pocket there could easily be an internally or externally threaded post that protrudes through the original hole in the limb with a specially designed (easy adjustment) nut that threads over said post and holds the limb in place. It really wouldn't be that hard.... Limb pocket fastens to riser using original hardware...

See attached drawing (if I can get it to work).


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## ArcherWolf (Oct 6, 2004)

Walk with a gi, Does it not occur to you that before even starting this thread that these aftermarket parts have been "field tested" in the very configuration that they were meant for. I'm sure Kevin is not so stupid as to begin marketing a product before it has been tested.


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## Ratus (Nov 5, 2004)

> Walk with a gi, Does it not occur to you that before even starting this thread that these aftermarket parts have been "field tested" in the very configuration that they were meant for. I'm sure Kevin is not so stupid as to begin marketing a product before it has been tested.


Wow, from conception to design , through manufacturing and production,then full thorough "field" testing and bringing the product to market for the customer in under one month since being fired? Impressive product turnaround. 

I also still have yet to see exactly what style cams these bows will have? Dual, Single, Hybrid, Binary?
Did I miss that somewhere in here?:embara:


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## SteveR (Sep 18, 2002)

I find this whole thread amazing. With a few minutes of thought, I came up with a few ways a new limb pocket could be designed to offset the limb. I'm sure someone thinking for an extended period, could come up with a real good workable design. Bo Hunter's example is a good one. This is not rocket science and does not require an engineering degree. It requires creative thought. When you're done thinking, give it to an engineer and say, "make it strong enough, light enough", or whatever other parameter is important.

In fact, I would be absolutely astounded if Elite Archery didn't have a simple, easy to implement, design to take care of the issue.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

{wp}ArcherWolf said:


> Walk with a gi, Does it not occur to you that before even starting this thread that these aftermarket parts have been "field tested" in the very configuration that they were meant for. I'm sure Kevin is not so stupid as to begin marketing a product before it has been tested.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

SteveR said:


> I find this whole thread amazing. With a few minutes of thought, I came up with a few ways a new limb pocket could be designed to offset the limb. I'm sure someone thinking for an extended period, could come up with a real good workable design. Bo Hunter's example is a good one. This is not rocket science and does not require an engineering degree. It requires creative thought. When you're done thinking, give it to an engineer and say, "make it strong enough, light enough", or whatever other parameter is important.
> 
> In fact, I would be absolutely astounded if Elite Archery didn't have a simple, easy to implement, design to take care of the issue.


 Or one could just buy a sight and arrow rest with plenty of windage


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## e-manhunt (Sep 14, 2004)

*comments on Constitution*

Ok, I've run into a nest of Bowtech users. I'm looking at a 2005 Constitution to shoot with fingers. all the comments here have me wary about the 2005 bows -- not necessarily the limbs, but torque on the shot etc. Any guidance from you guys on this?


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## 8PT (Feb 28, 2003)

Bo Hunter, from your thoughts are you proposing to make a design that is non adjustable for draw weight but rather fixed at a set weight? If not then how would you adjust for draw weight? I suppose you could eliminate the pivoting limb pocket feature and go back to a fixed pocket design that would adjust with a special nut thru the limb on the limb post. But that seems to be a step backwards and the original hardware could not be used to attach the limb pocket. Seems way more trouble than it would be worth, maybe you could explain it better.


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

walks, i've tried to say it nicely, but apparently you don't get it, so now i'll just come right out and say it... your a freaking idiot! get off this thread and go promote your bowtechs somewhere else!


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## SteveR (Sep 18, 2002)

> Or one could just buy a sight and arrow rest with plenty of windage


From what I've read, I was under the impression that the "fix" was to alleviate limb problems. I can't imagine anyone is going to buy a limb pocket instead of a different rest if windage is the only complaint. Then again, I haven't kept track of complaints on these bows. Maybe Elite Archery has a better handle on that, then some of us.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Shooter X said:


> walks, i've tried to say it nicely, but apparently you don't get it, so now i'll just come right out and say it... your a freaking idiot! get off this thread and go promote your bowtechs somewhere else!


 :Cry: Wwwaaaaaaaaaaa:fencing: :hail:


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## 8PT (Feb 28, 2003)

*post / thread director ?*



Shooter X said:


> walks, i've tried to say it nicely, but apparently you don't get it, so now i'll just come right out and say it... your a freaking idiot! get off this thread and go promote your bowtechs somewhere else!



 Did somebody appoint a new director of posts or is this a self-appointed position. I never saw the announcement for applications to this job. I was under the impression that the moderators handled these matters. Russ, thanks for the good insite on this and other subjects. Nice to see some intellegent thoughts and input on these subjects for a change. :thumbs_up


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

8PT said:


> Did somebody appoint a new director of posts or is this a self-appointed position. I never saw the announcement for applications to this job. I was under the impression that the moderators handled these matters. Russ, thanks for the good insite on this and other subjects. Nice to see some intellegent thoughts and input on these subjects for a change. :thumbs_up


 8PT,, I just see things for what they are and found a very simple problem that won't allow an offset pocket to be installed on an '05 riser. Kevin and the other designers at BowTech did a great job on the '05 Allegiance and it should be left as is, it was one of the top three bows last year IMO for hunting. As always in archery, up grades must be made from year to year to sell bows and BowTech again has improved their products,, with Kevin's help too.
I'm sure we'll see more innovations to come for '07,, I have a few of my own that I plan on submitting to BowTech if they will listen. I've seen something already on my Tribute that I think would improve it even more,, as good as it is now.
have a great day!! Russ.


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

Walks,

Here’s the way it is, 05 bowtech owners have 3 options:

1.Unload their problem bow on someone else (not very nice)
2.Contact Elite and have their system set up with the fix they offer (yes, you loose warranty, but bowtech doesn’t have any limb problems remember? So that shouldn’t matter right? Hahaaahahaha), anyways, if warranty does become a problem the limbs offered by Elite will probably be better than bowtechs anyway.
3.Look for the few rests and sights that offer the windage necessary and keep shooting the bow as is knowing and accepting the design flaws.

You have opted for option 3 and that is your decision. Good for you.

8pt – Just having a nice debate here, join in if you wish.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

My '05 Allegiance has been a very good bow with no problems or warranty claims. I've pressed it myself when changes needed to be made and I think lots of the limb problems are from presses not well suited to parallel limbs as such as the extreme designs from BowTech, even some of their own factory presses may have caused initial stress. Some bow presses wear and alignments become sloppy with extended use. I've seen it happed at a few shops I've been to in the past that the operator was rushed and wasn't using good attention to detail when setting the bow in the press.
I'm keeping mine just the way it came and I'm sure it will provide lots more hunting enjoyment in the years to come.


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## krb2002 (May 20, 2003)

*Shooter X*

I have a 05 Defender, shooting a trophy taker rest and a cobra slider sight, I have shot about 10 animals since I have had it and practice on a regular basis say 25 to 50 arrows once or twice a week. What exactly is wrong with my bow again I dont understand. It hits the target where I aim, its quite, no hand shock, solid wall. Am I doing something wrong?

Please explain whats wrong with my 05 Bow Tech, you seem to know so much!!


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

You might want to read the thread again, pay close attention to the posts by Kevin, I think you'll figure it out.


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## krb2002 (May 20, 2003)

ya thats what I thought.

you got nothing.


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

In case you missed it in the thread - here it is (posted by Elite and Kevin):

will alow you to bring your centershot in line with the center of the grip

parts made to specifically fix a torque problem and reduce the stress on the limbs and allow someone to gain 5-12 fps on their bow.

The limb pockets will reduce the side torque on the limbs, thereby reducing the chance or possibility of limb breakage. 

The decision for the 05' Bowtech line was made to not stock two different pockets or two seperate risers. This was not my decision. There would have been a set of pockets for dual cams and one set for single cams, or different risers, a decision was made by management, not to inventory the additional parts.


By the way, this is from the guy that designed/co-designed YOUR bow, what would he know?


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## krb2002 (May 20, 2003)

*In case you missed it*

I dont have a torque problem , I dont have a limb problem,I dont have a center shot problem, the bow shoots exactly where I place my pin, everytime. It kills game, when aimed properly. 

This guy Kevin designed the bow right, so he is saying he designed a bow last year with all these problems but it was ok then because he got a pay check from Bowtech. 

Now he gets fired for who cares what and suddenly bowtech has some major issues, I just dont see it. Its sour Grapes , he is pissed at Bowtech and is still trying to make people that shoot them feel like they have issues. 

I guess if you want to believe everything that you read go ahead, but I have a 05 bowtech and its the greatest shooting bow I have ever owned. So I wont let a disgruntled ex employee cram my head full of crap and believe it like you.

now what else.........


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

ahh, your right, it kills game, must be good enough... 

you know what, i am not even sure why bow companies keep producing new models, the ones from 20 years ago could kill game as well, why do they even keep trying to improve?


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## krb2002 (May 20, 2003)

*shooter x*

I am not saying that technology or new bows are not needed, just simply that your bashing is based on a thread started and fueled by a ex-employee that is trying to hurt the very company that made him. I think its classless and when weak minded people like yourself listen and then think you actually have insight its comical.


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

Your way off, I am not trying to bash. I am trying to stop people from bashing and give Elite an honest chance. I'll give you a call and we can discuss it.


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## krb2002 (May 20, 2003)

*This is bashing shooter X*

Here’s the way it is, 05 bowtech owners have 3 options:

1.Unload their problem bow on someone else (not very nice)
2.Contact Elite and have their system set up with the fix they offer (yes, you loose warranty, but bowtech doesn’t have any limb problems remember? So that shouldn’t matter right? Hahaaahahaha), anyways, if warranty does become a problem the limbs offered by Elite will probably be better than bowtechs anyway.
3.Look for the few rests and sights that offer the windage necessary and keep shooting the bow as is knowing and accepting the design flaws.

is it not?


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

> Bo Hunter, from your thoughts are you proposing to make a design that is non adjustable for draw weight but rather fixed at a set weight?


I was only throwing out a possible idea. I don't know what the 2005 or 2006 limb pockets even look like! I was only saying there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm fairly certain Kevin has skinned a cat or two in his day. I'm sure he's got a way to do it. Its possible it was an alteration that was in the works already, and was probably scrapped as Bowtech decided to go strictly binary and did a bow redesign to suit the cam specifically....


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## Shooter X (Nov 22, 2005)

That wasn’t intended to be bashing, but because you can’t here the tone in my voice through this thread I can see how it can come across that way. Bottom line is, I just want to give Elite a chance before shooting them down, regardless of their history.


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

Here's my situation.

I bought a 2004 Liberty used about a year ago. after about 5 months, My top limb cracked. 

My local shop was able to get me a new set of limbs. It was shooting fine since.

So when the new 2006s come out, I thought boy I would really like a new tribute, 20fps faster, and i'll have a factory warrenty. That same day I bought my new Tribute, I was taking pictures of the Liberty to sell it on AT, and sure enough, the Bottom limb had crack right down the middle.

I'm not really frustrated about it, and I am sure I could get the same shop to get me another set of limbs, but the Liberty used the exact same riser as the Allegiance, and if Elite is selling the cams and pockets for $120, and new limbs for $60, I can have a Faster Elite/Allegiance for $180, with a warrenty on the limbs.

Now that is one attractive offer. We'll just say, I'm going to be keeping my eye out for updates


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## jhpate (Dec 11, 2003)

*limbs*

 If someone were to buy a used 05 Allegiance, they have no warranty. If they break a set a limbs, and have no warranty because they were not the original owner, Elite will sell them a set of new limbs, and put a warranty on the limbs, the cost of new limbs would be $60.00 including the warranty

I think it is awesome what they are trying to offer. I hate to see so many people though with such negative attitudes. Thanks Kate and Kevin, I would like some more info on the limbs.


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## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*Other bows?*

Will Elite be making limbs to fit bows other than the '05 Bowtechs? If I could get new limbs with a warranty to fix my Champion Liberty for $60, I'd certainly go for it. (Those would be the laminated Champion RC limbs that cracked down the middle!) Just wondering.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

You forgot option 4
Putting my 06 Allegiance into stock and keeping my 05 Allegiance cause the thing shoots freaking awesome. 

You are of course assuming that Elite's limbs will be better. Based on what? Ever seen one and shot one? We have not even got pictures of these wonderous products. 

The actual % failure rates on Bowtechs is no different to any of the other manufacturers. This is one example of blown WAY out of proportion. 




Shooter X said:


> Walks,
> 
> Here’s the way it is, 05 bowtech owners have 3 options:
> 
> ...


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

In an eariler Post I believe that Kevin said that it will be 5 months before his neck heals so it might be a while before we see pictures of any of his new offerings. Time will tell but I'll sure be watching for those magic limb pockets:thumbs_up


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Hey,, I was just stumbling through my mind,,,, and remembered the two Mathews MQ1's that I had about 6 years ago. These bows had offset limb pockets and the riser holes for the limb bolts were offset too. I remember someone saying that there was only like 40 thousands of an inch from the outside of the riser to the outer most cut of the limb bolt threads. The limb bolts were still centered in the limb as I remember. 

Anyone have one of these bows or maybe a Q2, Q2XL or SQ2 you could post a pic of??:thumbs_up


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## Elite Archery 1 (Nov 26, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> In an eariler Post I believe that Kevin said that it will be 5 months before his neck heals so it might be a while before we see pictures of any of his new offerings. Time will tell but I'll sure be watching for those magic limb pockets:thumbs_up



WWAG,

Why would my neck healing have anything to do with risers, cams or any other bow parts, Kate's not having me machine them with my teeth:teeth: or my Dremel tool!!!!! 

Seriously, my neck has nothing to do with Elite having parts or not. :thumbs_up 

I do have one question???? If there was not a limb problem why did Bowtech in about August, while I was still there make a new pivot? It's designed to put less stress on the center of the limb this is where most cracks occur, most are hidden by the limb washer/bezel. Also why are the new limbs thicker at the butt end, something that was started in Sept or Oct? Why make changes to the limb and pivot if they are working fine? Actually asked three ??? didn't I. 

I could tell you why all the changes came about but only in a P.M. or phone call!!!!!

I will not post anything else in regards to Bowtech limbs, if you haven't had a problem great, if you have I hope you don't have anymore, just enjoy shooting your bow and have a Happy Holiday season

Kevin


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## Outward_Saint (Dec 8, 2005)

I've been following this thread and I decided to make my first post on this site. 

I really do not care about the BS between Elite and Bowtech. NOT MY PROBLEM. I would be interested in seeing the final product. I'm not sure that I like the way this upgrade has been marketed up to this time. I would have rather waited and seen the final offerings instead of being presented with a quick tid-bit. I especially do not like to see "very soon" because it is so vague. What I would like to see from an archery company goes something like this. Here is my product, it works like this, please look at the pictures, it is available in these options and is NOW READY TO BE SOLD. There have been some good questions asked by a few posters with no answers even though Kevin has been back online to respond to the squable going back and forth. I would like to hear the answers to Marcus's questions so that I can start the thinking process as to if I would like to purchase the upgrade. Elite has a new and exciting road ahead of them. They have a chance to do things differently from the other companies. I'm so sick of hearing from various companies,"this is how it is done and it's the way the other companies do it." Just because they go about business in that way doesn't mean Elite will need to follow. I wish them well because building a business is da*N hard work.


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## Cantgetright (Dec 20, 2002)

Kevin I wish you and you family well and thank you for doing what you are doing. Archery needs some fresh and new ideas and it sounds like your wife's new company is a set in the right direction. For all the bashing it's just sour grapes. I love the 05 allegiance and if it can be made even better what's the big issue? Those who want to improve the 05 let them and those who are satisfied that's cool too but the bashing and back set engineering is pretty petty. I'm sure the man who designed a bow can improve upon that design without any help from the peanut gallery.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

No one is commenting about my bow kit that I am looking forward to. I will even take an unpainted/dipped riser if it will reduce the cost. I am only interested in performance and I can always use camo duct tape if needed.

I need to know more about the dremel tool and jb weld manufacturing techniques because I don't see a cnc machine in my future. I think it is pretty neat when someone has enough passion to pursue their project by all means necessary.

But back to my bow kit. It would be great if I could go and buy parts and build the bow that I wanted for less than I could buy a stock bow for. This way if I wanted a riser from one company and limbs and cams from other companies I could build my franken bow and have at it. Along these same lines maybe there needs to be a class of 3d which allows shoot what you bring until it blows class. a one grain per pound class complete with flack jacket and hearing protection for super sonic arrow flight. After all do you want to watch nascar races with a maximum speed limit of 30 mph. Rail draggsters or I am willing to kill myself for your entertainment drag racing. After all our stock bows are like stock cars if you got the money you can own one.

Sorry for the interuption now back to fencing.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Elite Archery 1 said:


> WWAG,
> 
> Why would my neck healing have anything to do with risers, cams or any other bow parts, Kate's not having me machine them with my teeth:teeth: or my Dremel tool!!!!!
> 
> ...


 I hope you have a great Christmas also!! You should focus your attention on a new aftermarket riser for the Allegiance.. You could offer different lengths and reflex geometrys for different events. Different grip options, higher profit margins, camo options etc..
I always wondered why you designed a pivoting limb pocket with a fulcrum pivot?? Why not just a flat pad in the limb pocket??

Quote;
"Why make changes to the limb and pivot if they are working fine? Actually asked three ??? didn't I." 

Manufactures always make working changes to their products and the limb rocker that you designed was not of the best quality, injection molded with a cup in the center that held a small portion of grease, that I believe had a hydraulic pressure spike in varying tempreatures while shooting. A few limb rockers I had seen had deep gouges in the outside radius that could have caused uneven pressures also.

It was time for an upgrade and the new rockers with the clear center are an improvement. I actually sanded the ones on my '04 Patriot Dually on a glass plate to clean them up. I still think the flat pad in the pivoting limb pocket is all that's necessary


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## ijimmy (Jul 2, 2002)

scottland said:


> I'm not really frustrated about it, and I am sure I could get the same shop to get me another set of limbs, but the Liberty used the exact same riser as the Allegiance


I belive they changed some things betwene 04 and 05 . Make sure before you jump , and strings and cabels will allso be needed


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Well????

must be back at the drawing board


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## puddles (Nov 9, 2005)

Wheres Peedee when ya need him. Must be out FORGING new relationships.LOL
Offset limb pocket design is nothing new and is of particular benefit to solo cam bows. By virtue of the three track design of a solo cam the string cannot take a perpendicular path to the bow without an offset design.
Mathews followed this path along with tighter limb pocket tolerances from the conquest 2 to the conquest 3 with great result, It made the bow even easier to tune and a more consistant bow to boot.
It certainly didnt introduce any inherent cable guard cleatrance problems as suggested by Marcus. In effect all it did in that regard was to give the same clearance as any 2 cam bow by virtue of a similar string path.
So Kevin, Where were you when sfa made every complaint against bowtech that you now state here. Limb quality, poor pocket design, extrusion versus forging etc.
Whilst i am all for your new company I do understand peoples scepticism and cynicism when the claims you make were made by others a long time ago but were defended to the death by your then henchmen.
Good luck to Kate and yourself and I for one really look forward to seeing your particular design taken to where it should have always been.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

*windstalker cable guard*

I believe a major design flaw of the 05 allegiance was the position of the cable rod. Well right of where it needed to be in relation to the string which is well left of where the string would be on a 1 cam bow (liberty). Others have stated that the allegiance and liberty share the same riser. If this is true it doesn't make sense to have the same cable clearence on bows that have a distinct difference in their center string / shot positions.. Same riser or not this overkill of cable clearance on the allegiance results in the added torque that is at the center of the centershot and limb stress problems.

I tried the windstalker after Dave Nowlins' recomendation and I am glad I did. Aside from ealy wear issues that have been corrected, this addition has improved the bows performance. The windstalker allows your cables to fall back to the string side while still providing adequate clearance. Your centershot should also come in as a result. It seels logical that limb stress issues are also alleviated with the reduction of cable torque, that this gadget provides.

While the "Elite" company apperas to be offering other attractive options, my allegiance shoots great with this cable guard addition. One thing I would welcome though is grip options: don't care for the stock grip on the allegiance.

Elite; good luck with your new venture.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

skyhunter said:


> I believe a major design flaw of the 05 allegiance was the position of the cable rod. Well right of where it needed to be in relation to the string which is well left of where the string would be on a 1 cam bow (liberty). Others have stated that the allegiance and liberty share the same riser. If this is true it doesn't make sense to have the same cable clearence on bows that have a distinct difference in their center string / shot positions.. Same riser or not this overkill of cable clearance on the allegiance results in the added torque that is at the center of the centershot and limb stress problems.
> 
> I tried the windstalker after Dave Nowlins' recomendation and I am glad I did. Aside from ealy wear issues that have been corrected, this addition has improved the bows performance. The windstalker allows your cables to fall back to the string side while still providing adequate clearance. Your centershot should also come in as a result. It seels logical that limb stress issues are also alleviated with the reduction of cable torque, that this gadget provides.
> 
> ...


 Some people changed out the cable slide to make changes that they thought were necessary to their bows. I left mine as it came from the factory and lived quite happily with it that way.

If you ever find a bow manufacture that makes the perfect bow for the next 50 years,, better buy stock ASAP!!!
Things are always changing in archery and this year is no different for BowTech it seems, more improvements for '06 for sure. I'll also bet you'll see different stuff in '07 too, probably from other manufactures especially 

REFUSE TO FOLLOW


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

walks with a gi said:


> Some people changed out the cable slide to make changes that they thought were necessary to their bows. I left mine as it came from the factory and lived quite happily with it that way.
> REFUSE TO FOLLOW


The stock slide was another of Bowtechs problems. They started with one and said the fallaway rest attachment post should be upside down, (on top) and then they shipped with another where the attachment was on the bottom. This confusion was at the heart of many a lenghthy thread here on AT.

This confusion also had many allegiance owners shooting their bows with the wrong cable configuration and thus putting added torque and stress into the system. Many were putting the up cable to the outside, when it should be to the inside (string side). Some that couldn't find their tune or centershot even said that this reverse cable configuration solved their problem. Go figure? 

WWAG, do you know if the 2005 allegiance was in fact built on the liberty riser. If this is so, the consumer really took it on the chin, winding up with a bow that had excessive and unnecessary cable clearance and thus, mucho torquo. And if this is so, Bowtech didn't bother to engineer a riser with the allegiance in mind, that would reconize the string position on the new binary cam system and make the necessary adjustment to the cable guard position.

This was a major engineering shortcoming. My guess is that they knew it, but were more interested in getting it to market and saving time and money. In the end we got burned with a good bow that could have and *should have* been great, but for many, needed fixing.

A diamond bow (machete) that I bought in 04 also had an engineering flaw that needed fixing. Maybe the next bow I buy will be for sale *after* it has demonstrated that it works the way it should.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## bohntr (Jun 3, 2002)

You guys have got to be kidding. complaining about the factory cable slide on a bow :violin:. I have been changing out cable slides on bows for 15 years on every Bow I have owned. It has always been one of the first things to do when I set up a bow.All my Hoyts, High Countrys, Mathews, a Browning I had, and now all my Bowtechs.There isn't a company that ever puts a really good slide on a bow. 
The same way I change the factory tires on the Honda quad, because I don't like the factory ones and I can put on better. My kids will change out the ear phones on an IPOD because there is better and they know it, and will think nothing of it (par for the coarse)

It's time to step back and take a look at how petty some individuals complaints are.
But than again if you ask, the company will make the change, because they want your business.

Bowtech has changed and fixed engineering short falls of the previous years bows, since their inception. Everything the consumer has asked for year after year.

Nock travel, precise draw length, better grips, longer ATA, smoother draw cycle, now this year, center shot, modular draw on the Binary cam, different camo colors. These were all wants and concerns Bowtech owners had of bows they purchased and all things have been taken care of.
Maybe next year limb choices, and high end Teflon cable slides.

Best regards
Allan


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

skyhunter said:


> The stock slide was another of Bowtechs problems. They started with one and said the fallaway rest attachment post should be upside down, (on top) and then they shipped with another where the attachment was on the bottom. This confusion was at the heart of many a lenghthy thread here on AT.
> 
> This confusion also had many allegiance owners shooting their bows with the wrong cable configuration and thus putting added torque and stress into the system. Many were putting the up cable to the outside, when it should be to the inside (string side). Some that couldn't find their tune or centershot even said that this reverse cable configuration solved their problem. Go figure?
> 
> ...


 My '05 Allegiance it still bone stock with the exception of changing the crossing of the cables from the way my early Allegiance was shipped. This change I made was to copy those that were shipped at a later date. BowTech discovered that by changing the way the cables crossed, it reduced the amount of limb torque in the bow. I'd shot the bow quite a bit before the change to the cables and accuracy was great. Accuracy didn't change for me after the cable crossing change but it did straighten out what VERY little top limb torque I had. 
On my Allegiance,,,,,,,,,, I have no problems, never did and have no desire to make any adjustments or add custom strings or other parts or cable slides. I'll keep this bow for a very long time because it's the one that set a benchmark for other's to follow in it's class for a very long time. It's a collector for me in that regard and I value it highly:RockOn:


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

bohntr said:


> You guys have got to be kidding. complaining about the factory cable slide on a bow :violin:. I have been changing out cable slides on bows for 15 years on every Bow I have owned. It has always been one of the first things to do when I set up a bow.All my Hoyts, High Countrys, Mathews, a Browning I had, and now all my Bowtechs.There isn't a company that ever puts a really good slide on a bow.
> 
> It's time to step back and take a look at how petty some individuals complaints are.
> 
> Allan


Allan if you read my posts, it is clear that I was not talking about changing a cable slide for a higher quality one such as teflon. What you missed is that I was discussing changing the degree of side torque that resulted from using a riser that was engineered for a 1 cam bow. A one cam bow's string meets the middle of the axle at the top idler wheel. The 2 cam bow's string stays well away to the left of center axle (right hand bow). Anyone can see that.

Why would you use the same cable rod position for bows that have a distinct difference in their string positions?

To change this engineering shortcoming, the slide or method that you implement needs to move the cables closer to the string. I do not know of any cable slides that have a "deeper cut" than the bowtech stock slide. That is why I use the Windstalker which holds the cables out in 2 separate places and results in you *not* having to push the cables out much to gain adequate clearance. The result is much less side torque than using any slide.

You totally did not comprehend what I was getting at. There is an overkill of clearence on the allegiance that has varied negative effects on torque, limb stress and centershot issues. One poster even said that his ATA varied by 1/4 " when he measured the flip side. Why do you think that is so? So you say this is a "petty complaint". Changing a slide for one of higher quality doesn't fix that. Again, you have totally missed the point.

bohntr, it's time that you started comprehending what another individual is saying before you start calling them "petty". Bowtech sent bows to market with the *wrong* slide. The first one was made for the 1 cam bow. They said just flip it over. Then they sent bows out with a different slide. There was a mass of confusion and guys were shooting their bows with the cables reversed, and often doing harm to their bows as a result. Is this petty? Even with the cables in the correct slide and position there exists way too much torque in this system as a result of the 1 cam rod position. Not a petty complaint. A Windstalker fixes the excess torque. That's all I was trying to point out.

WWAGI, just curious on how you have your cables now. I believe the correct position is as I had stated; the up cable set in slide to the string side.

HUNT SAFE !!! . . .


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

Outward_Saint said:


> I've been following this thread and I decided to make my first post on this site.
> 
> I really do not care about the BS between Elite and Bowtech. NOT MY PROBLEM. I would be interested in seeing the final product. I'm not sure that I like the way this upgrade has been marketed up to this time. I would have rather waited and seen the final offerings instead of being presented with a quick tid-bit. I especially do not like to see "very soon" because it is so vague. What I would like to see from an archery company goes something like this. Here is my product, it works like this, please look at the pictures, it is available in these options and is NOW READY TO BE SOLD. There have been some good questions asked by a few posters with no answers even though Kevin has been back online to respond to the squable going back and forth. I would like to hear the answers to Marcus's questions so that I can start the thinking process as to if I would like to purchase the upgrade.



I agree, put down the dremmel and pick up the camera. You say you have the bow, cams and limbs all designed and tested. Lets see what they look like, give me a reason to wait! As they say, Put up or...


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

skyhunter said:


> Allan if you read my posts, it is clear that I was not talking about changing a cable slide for a higher quality one such as teflon. What you missed is that I was discussing changing the degree of side torque that resulted from using a riser that was engineered for a 1 cam bow. A one cam bow's string meets the middle of the axle at the top idler wheel. The 2 cam bow's string stays well away to the left of center axle (right hand bow). Anyone can see that.
> 
> Why would you use the same cable rod position for bows that have a distinct difference in their string positions?
> 
> ...


 I have my cables crossing on my '05 Allegiance like the current '06 Binarys and like the later released '05 Binary cammed bows. My Allegiance was a very early release in '05, it has the silver oval in the BowTech logo on the limbs, unlike the later bows with the red oval.
The cables can also be adjusted with an aftermarket cable guard rod that has the bends in it instead of the straight carbon rod. This is still true of the '06's but like any accessory, can void your warranty on any manufacture's bow.


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Has anybody tried this yet? I would like to read some review.....


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## Greg / MO (Nov 19, 2003)

I don't think the products available tax lawyer -- just like the website.


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## tbailey (Feb 25, 2004)

Tax Lawyer said:


> Has anybody tried this yet? I would like to read some review.....


I did on my 05 Old Glory. I purchased an aftermarket Cobra offset cable rod. It brought my centershot in enough to use the Spot Hogg sight, but it doesn't bring the cables over as far as the Windstalker. I'm getting ready to convert over with the WS instead. I already have one on my 05 Allegiance and like it much better.


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## OldGloryUser (Aug 28, 2005)

*05 OldGlory bolt hole*

The limb bolt hole in the riser on my 05 OldGlory is dead center, absolutely no offset. I may try the cams and offsets, it's great to see someone making products to improve equipment.


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## Ont. BowTech (Dec 27, 2004)

tbailey said:


> I did on my 05 Old Glory. I purchased an aftermarket Cobra offset cable rod. It brought my centershot in enough to use the Spot Hogg sight, but it doesn't bring the cables over as far as the Windstalker. I'm getting ready to convert over with the WS instead. I already have one on my 05 Allegiance and like it much better.


There is no need to use an offset cable rod to be able to use a spott hogg sight. I sell Bowtech and shoot them as well and the spot hogg works great as is.

Grant


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Spot-Hogg on the Allegiance*

Grant,
I definately have to agree with you on this one. I have no problems with my Spot-Hogg on my bow. Once I set everything up with the Laser centershot tool I have a ton of room for sight adjustments, had there been a need for it. 

Check out the picture. It isn't the greatest, but it does show my sight settings.

Dave



Ont. BowTech said:


> There is no need to use an offset cable rod to be able to use a Spot-Hogg sight. I sell Bowtech and shoot them as well and the spot hogg works great as is.
> 
> Grant


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## tbailey (Feb 25, 2004)

Ont. BowTech said:


> There is no need to use an offset cable rod to be able to use a spott hogg sight. I sell Bowtech and shoot them as well and the spot hogg works great as is.
> 
> Grant


Grant and Dave,

I assure you both i DID have to use the offset rod. I've been an avid archer and tinkerer for over 35 years and I'm telling you my Hogg-it would NOT adjust over far enough. WHY would I go to the trouble of changing over if there was no need?


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## tbailey (Feb 25, 2004)

Guys,

I just went back and checked the adjustment I have left and it is a half turn from maxing out the left sight adjustment. I still DO stand corrected. The Hogg-it sight is using a Sure-loc dovetail mount. This base is slightly thicker than the factory SH base. I did this so I can swap out between the Hogg-it and a Sure-loc sight. I'm sure this is why we're having a disagreement. My apologies to you both. :embara: This makes twice you've got me Dave. The last time was the cable rotuing with the Allegiance.


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## Ont. BowTech (Dec 27, 2004)

No worries I did the same thing when i first got my first Old Glory.

Happy shooting

Grant


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## elkbutchilism (Feb 21, 2005)

*depressing*



Shooter X said:


> In case you missed it in the thread - here it is (posted by Elite and Kevin):
> 
> will alow you to bring your centershot in line with the center of the grip
> 
> ...


I've been away for a while and when I come back to AT I stumble upon this thread.How depressing ! I did not know that my 05 Allegiance had so many defects.Here I've been shooting it regularly for 10 months,killed 2 deer and 1 elk [at 65 yards] fired hundreds of arrows with faultless acuracy,and now they say it needs to be overhauled.As the saying goes"ignorance is bliss".If there's a serious problem with the bow it seems to me that a reputable company would stand behind it and make the proper fixes;just as a car mfg.would send out notices when they have design problems that need to be corrected and direct you to the nearest dealer to make them, no charge.My.my,what am I to do now?Drop the $700+ for a new bow ,or wait until this one blows up and mames or kills me?Maybe I should just go back to throwing lead 'til the dust all settles about this issue.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Not a problem!!!*

tbailey,

No problems either. I can see where a thicker base could cause a problem. Don't take it personally, I didn't!:teeth: Just trying to understand why you were having troubles with your windage. As far as the cable crossings don't mention it! Again, only trying to help! It sure does make a bit of difference.
Good shooting!

Dave



tbailey said:


> Guys,
> 
> I just went back and checked the adjustment I have left and it is a half turn from maxing out the left sight adjustment. I still DO stand corrected. The Hogg-it sight is using a Sure-loc dovetail mount. This base is slightly thicker than the factory SH base. I did this so I can swap out between the Hogg-it and a Sure-loc sight. I'm sure this is why we're having a disagreement. My apologies to you both. :embara: This makes twice you've got me Dave. The last time was the cable rotuing with the Allegiance.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

elkbutchilism said:


> I've been away for a while and when I come back to AT I stumble upon this thread.How depressing ! I did not know that my 05 Allegiance had so many defects.Here I've been shooting it regularly for 10 months,killed 2 deer and 1 elk [at 65 yards] fired hundreds of arrows with faultless acuracy,and now they say it needs to be overhauled.As the saying goes"ignorance is bliss".If there's a serious problem with the bow it seems to me that a reputable company would stand behind it and make the proper fixes;just as a car mfg.would send out notices when they have design problems that need to be corrected and direct you to the nearest dealer to make them, no charge.My.my,what am I to do now?Drop the $700+ for a new bow ,or wait until this one blows up and mames or kills me?Maybe I should just go back to throwing lead 'til the dust all settles about this issue.


 There's no "seroius" problems with the Allegiance,, only some made up ones to try to discredit it's design. The Allegiance is not so perfect as to never be improved upon, but none the less, it's a great bow that performs very well IMO. The first to come out had the cables crossed as to not provide mimimum limb twist. BowTech found a better way to cross the cables and that change made a big improvement:thumbs_up


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

*Elite... Kevin*

You sir are a master! Anyone who could design the Old Glory of 05' with a huge BH and smooth draw 60# 37+" bow shooting arrows 6-grains/lb w/80% let-off and 276fps.. My hat is off to you... My rest is not centershot waay out to the left(stock cable guard and shoots like a dream... if you can make it shoot better... I sir want that option!:thumbs_up Get going you guys some of us appreciate your hard work and dedication the "market" is here!
Can I just send this 05' Old Glory to you and let you straighten everything up?
It seems you would be the man... since it is your design! Just let me know please. Once the website is up and running.... I'll be ready!:thumbs_up


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## philh64 (Apr 2, 2004)

TAYLOR CO. said:


> You sir are a master! Anyone who could design the Old Glory of 05' with a huge BH and smooth draw 60# 37+" bow shooting arrows 6-grains/lb w/80% let-off and 276fps.. My hat is off to you... My rest is not centershot waay out to the left(stock cable guard and shoots like a dream... if you can make it shoot better... I sir want that option!:thumbs_up Get going you guys some of us appreciate your hard work and dedication the "market" is here!
> Can I just send this 05' Old Glory to you and let you straighten everything up?
> It seems you would be the man... since it is your design! Just let me know please. Once the website is up and running.... I'll be ready!:thumbs_up


That was an impressive display of butt-kissing, but from what I've heard he's already married.


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## philh64 (Apr 2, 2004)

philh64 said:


> That was an impressive display of butt-kissing, but from what I've heard he's already married.


I apologize for that in advance, TAYLOR, just razzing ya a little.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

No Problem/no Harm/no Foul! 
I Really Do Mean It. 
Just This Waiting Is Killin' Me.


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## juano2001 (Jul 5, 2005)

*Me too*

I bought an allegiance just to fix it!!!


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Wow! I have only been in the hunting section for a couple months and this is what is going on over here? This is all over my head but if Kevin can build a better bow than the Allegiance and maybe the Tribute is it I want to see and ..... well I better not shoot it.

Hey Kevin if you tune back in, hear you spent some time in East Texas and close by Louisiana. Would like to know more about your bow building experience's got some info from infamous Nowlin. Good luck with new company and hope you get your stuff back as well. Oh, and if you need staff shooter (hunter) let me know. This East Texas boy is available.


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Kate where's Kevin? Must be working in the shop if so I'll not bother.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Has anyone got their up grades yet?


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## Bowpro-295 (Jul 30, 2013)

I had one on my old allegiance. On my other one I just did rev cams


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

How did it work?


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