# Creep Tune, explanations please?



## Coug09

Can someone please explain to me how/why you creep tune YOUR bows and how YOU do it? I have been doing some reading on the subject and would like to see how/why everyone does it. I have always just mainly paper tuned my target rigs, checks clearance and walk back tune. I'm trying to broaden my horizons. Lol. Thanks guys!


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## tmorelli

My process is in post #2 here; http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2201440

The search feature will turn up several good discussions on this.


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## RickB4

Me too tag


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## erdman41

Another one

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1935848


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## montigre

Good threads. Another good bet would be to do a search for creep tuning in the general archery section. There have been MANY discussions on this topic in the past.


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## SonnyThomas

General Archery Information Page 3, by George Ryals, aka Griv.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453865

Customers and those practicing always wanted to know why I had these made up. Works for creep tuning, sighting (removes the "stay in the circle," both horizontal and vertical) and short range French tuning.


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## JV NC

I'm obviously not afraid to ask a dumb question, so here goes......

If your firing engine is some form of (let's not go "there"!) tension pulling backwards on the string, why would you need to assume it would ever be fired in any other way? Or, why would your bow ever be fired from a little short of the wall position?

I'm having new strings and cables installed on my Specialist, today. Very interested in this thread. I want to tune this setup better than I've ever had before. And, I'm learning I've probably always settled for "it's OK".


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## Lazarus

JV NC said:


> I'm obviously not afraid to ask a dumb question, so here goes......
> 
> If your firing engine is some form of (let's not go "there"!) tension pulling backwards on the string, why would you need to assume it would ever be fired in any other way? Or, why would your bow ever be fired from a little short of the wall position?
> 
> I'm having new strings and cables installed on my Specialist, today. Very interested in this thread. I want to tune this setup better than I've ever had before. And, I'm learning I've probably always settled for "it's OK".


I asked that same question of a well known pro last fall JV NC because I had never creep tuned a bow before. His answer in a nutshell was "well, if Reo and Jesse do it that should say something shouldn't it?" That question sold me. Therefore, I went through every single step that I was supposed to go through to creep tune the bow. When I was all done I had not turned a screw on the bow. It was right where it needed to be to start with.

The concept is to make a bow as forgiving as possible. That's obviously a pretty good concept. So is training yourself to make the strongest shot possible. :cheers:


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## Lazarus

That right there is an amazing post by tmorelli, I had completely missed it because it was in a brand specific forum good work! Posting the link again; 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2201440


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## SonnyThomas

Well, it's also said forgiving as to you having strong day and a weak day. Okay, you can't be "charged up" 100% of the time...though we'd like to be.


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## JV NC

Lazarus said:


> I asked that same question of a well known pro last fall JV NC because I had never creep tuned a bow before. His answer in a nutshell was "well, if Reo and Jesse do it that should say something shouldn't it?" That question sold me. Therefore, I went through every single step that I was supposed to go through to creep tune the bow. When I was all done I had not turned a screw on the bow. It was right where it needed to be to start with.
> 
> The concept is to make a bow as forgiving as possible. That's obviously a pretty good concept. So is training yourself to make the strongest shot possible. :cheers:


I guess I'm also trying to understand all the left/right holes in the paper from 10'. Wouldn't creep tuning only affect elevation?


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> That right there is an amazing post by tmorelli, I had completely missed it because it was in a brand specific forum good work! Posting the link again;
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2201440


Will have to call him Coach Tony Morelli


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## SonnyThomas

JV NC said:


> I guess I'm also trying to understand all the left/right holes in the paper from 10'. Wouldn't creep tuning only affect elevation?


Form, stance, anchor, draw length....


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## unclejane

JV NC said:


> I guess I'm also trying to understand all the left/right holes in the paper from 10'. Wouldn't creep tuning only affect elevation?


Actually, up-down variations can interact with lefts and rights, so it's possible there can be an effect there. Not always, but sometimes straightening out an up-down can also mitigate, if not cure, a left-right. But it can bring one in also. So what I do is operate on one direction at a time and not pay much attention to deviations in the other during that process. Only when you're getting really close will you have to fine tune each direction.

Basically, just expect to have to monkey with each one back and forth for a while till both are finally down in the noise of a bad shot.

Finally, during creep tuning, pay close attention to face contact. When I'm really hauling back against the wall, I can also jam the hand into the chin which can introduce spurious left-rights. I can also not obey good back tension and tense up the muscles in the arms, further introducing more spurious behavior into the bareshaft.

Now that I shoot a pull-through release full-time, I'm not totally Joe Stalin about creep tuning but I do monitor it if one of my pull-throughs is heavier and I get a weird tune when switching. Then I'll get out the hinge and do a quick status check with the bareshafts.....

LS


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## tmorelli

SonnyThomas said:


> Will have to call him Coach Tony Morelli


I'm certifiable but have no certs.


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## ThunderEagle

JV NC said:


> I guess I'm also trying to understand all the left/right holes in the paper from 10'. Wouldn't creep tuning only affect elevation?


Creep tuning does only impact elevation. If you continue reading in the linked hybrid cam tuning article crafted by Coach Morelli )) you see his description of torque tuning for left and rights.


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## unclejane

tmorelli said:


> I'm certifiable but have no certs.


No way, your post is getting a link in my browser. Good stuff....

LS


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## montigre

tmorelli said:


> I'm certifiable but have no certs.


Hehe...!!! Anyway, I always thought that write up should have been made a general AT sticky...I only accidentially fell onto it while crusing through the brand specific forum one day. There's a load of good info there! Nice sharing the wealth, Coach Morelli!!


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## PSE Archer

ThunderEagle said:


> Creep tuning does only impact elevation. If you continue reading in the linked hybrid cam tuning article crafted by Coach Morelli )) you see his description of torque tuning for left and rights.


I have paper tuned as a start and had a horizontal tear. Creep tuned and produced a bullet hole. (Vantage Elite)

That is my findings. Other may differ.


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## Padgett

The first time I saw creep tuning it was done by a pro indoor shooter and he did it by hand just shooting at vegas x's, I am not that good so I did my creep tuning with my bow in a hooter shooter and it really does make a big difference. I think when you are shooting in your yard by yourself everything is perfect but when there is pressure in a big shoot and you have some anxiety where you may end up giving more or less tension in the shot this is where shooting a bow that is not creep tuned can get you in trouble.

I have a creep tuning article if you want it, just pm me. I shoot a specialist and it responds well to creep tuning.


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## Padgett

I don't have proof to why it works but to me the fact that we shoot on the top half of the string and not perfectly centered on the bow string forces us to de tune the cams to get a more consistent bow. If the nock position was perfectly centered then more than likely you would want the cams to be perfectly synced but since we are slightly above by forcing the top cam to hit before the bottom cam we find that perfect setting where the arrow hits dead on weather the bow is creeped or next to the draw stops or pulled into the draw stops.

All I know is that when I get my bow creep tuned where it shoots the same hole weather it is a 1/8 inch in front of the draw stops or touching or pulled a good 1/8 inch into the stops it does nothing but give me confidence that my bow is going to take care of me.


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## Padgett

I only had one target bow that i creep tuned and it was the specialist so one day I decided to creep tune it and I forgot which cam should hit first so I ended up making the bottom cam hit first and I actually creep tuned it perfectly doing it that way. I called my buddy Sam the pro indoor shooter and he called me a idiot because that makes him happy and told me the top one should hit first. 

I went ahead and did the job again the next day and did it with the top one hitting first and that is the way i suggest to guys that they should do it.


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## montigre

Padgett said:


> I think when you are shooting in your yard by yourself everything is perfect but when there is pressure in a big shoot and you have some anxiety where you may end up giving more or less tension in the shot this is where shooting a bow that is not creep tuned can get you in trouble.


It also has great value for leveling your own playing field when you're shooting a long game like a field/FITA or your tournament is running over several days. There is no way you're going to be as fresh and strong on day 5 of a competition as you were on day 1 or 2 and it will show up in the pressure you apply to the stops.


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## bseltzer

tmorelli said:


> My process is in post #2 here; http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2201440
> 
> The search feature will turn up several good discussions on this.


Tony,

Thank you so much!! What you presented in that thread is as clear, concise, and comprehensive an explanation of tuning hybrid systems as I think I've ever seen. :77: Hope you don't mind that I've save the contents of both post #1 & 2 from that thread for future reference.


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## SonnyThomas

tmorelli said:


> I'm certifiable but have no certs.


Coach Morelli, as long as you put up info like in that Thread keep right on being certifiable 

Dang, I'll have to start another Library....


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## ThunderEagle

So, Coach Morelli, that is a thing now, right?


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## ride394

Coach Morelli is the ****! He's helped me numerous times when he definitely had much more important/better things to be worrying about.


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## tmorelli

ThunderEagle said:


> So, Coach Morelli, that is a thing now, right?


No, it is not a thing.


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## SonnyThomas

Tony, I want to say I'm sorry....but I'm to busy enjoying this...


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## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Tony, I want to say I'm sorry....but I'm to busy enjoying this...


I can see the title to his first book now.....but I won't say it because I would get banned I'm sure. :angel4:


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## tmorelli

Lazarus said:


> I can see the title to his first book now.....but I won't say it because I would get banned I'm sure. :angel4:


Off topic, but it is your fault....

I'm dabbling with a business book concept right now. The outline is currently titled "The cost of not." It is about decisions and factors that drive business leaders' failure to invest in (people, equipment, systems). It is my first go so who knows what happens with it.


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## EPLC

tmorelli said:


> My process is in post #2 here; http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2201440
> 
> The search feature will turn up several good discussions on this.


I do have one question about your priority logic. I notice that you prefer to shim the bottom cam prior to doing any yoke tuning. Personally, I have found yoke tuning to be very effective as a first step. Why wouldn't you want to take the low hanging fruit first and then go for the more labor intensive work if that didn't give you the desired result? Not that your order of events is "wrong", I just see it as not the path of least resistance.

When I yoke tune, I start with the rest dead center to the riser and then follow the tear as you described.


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## Lazarus

^ like, the tmorelli book idea, off topic or not


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## tmorelli

EPLC said:


> I do have one question about your priority logic. I notice that you prefer to shim the bottom cam prior to doing any yoke tuning. Personally, I have found yoke tuning to be very effective as a first step. Why wouldn't you want to take the low hanging fruit first and then go for the more labor intensive work if that didn't give you the desired result?


I don't know that I prefer it....maybe I've been shaped by failure not to do it. My experience has been that bottom cam issues are hard to overcome, or force us to exaggerate our corrections elsewhere. It is just easier for me to fix it first, which I believes unlocks the potential of all the other options. 

It normally takes me about 3-5 minutes to press the bow, pop the axle out, rearrange the shims and put it back together and that saves me a lot of time later.


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## EPLC

Like I said, not wrong, just not the path of least resistance to the same end. Of course I'm naturally lazy which drives my logic most of the time...


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## cbrunson

I heard Coach Morelli is writing a book!!!

Will it have a DVD? :lol:


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## ThunderEagle

EPLC said:


> Like I said, not wrong, just not the path of least resistance to the same end. Of course I'm naturally lazy which drives my logic most of the time...


Having gone down the yoke first path, the problem is, once you decide you have too much pre-lean, you now have the yokes twisted up pretty good. If you start with an eyeballed pre-lean and have a small tear, yoke it is, large tear, just shim it.


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## multi-target

Tagged lots of good info.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> I heard Coach Morelli is writing a book!!!
> 
> Will it have a DVD? :lol:


I'm dead.....:rip:


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## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> I'm dead.....:rip:


You did it now, Sonny... What do you want written as your epitaph??


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## RCR_III

JV NC said:


> I'm obviously not afraid to ask a dumb question, so here goes......
> 
> If your firing engine is some form of (let's not go "there"!) tension pulling backwards on the string, why would you need to assume it would ever be fired in any other way? Or, why would your bow ever be fired from a little short of the wall position?
> 
> I'm having new strings and cables installed on my Specialist, today. Very interested in this thread. I want to tune this setup better than I've ever had before. And, I'm learning I've probably always settled for "it's OK".


In windy conditions you may hold more tension against the wall of the bow trying to get steadier. This would be a good example of when creep tuning comes into play.


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## tmorelli

RCR_III said:


> In windy conditions you may hold more tension against the wall of the bow trying to get steadier. This would be a good example of when creep tuning comes into play.


And uphill, downhill....


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## EPLC

RCR_III said:


> In windy conditions you may hold more tension against the wall of the bow trying to get steadier. This would be a good example of when creep tuning comes into play.





tmorelli said:


> And uphill, downhill....


And in pressure situations you may not be as consistent as you might be otherwise with how hard (or soft) you are pulling into the wall... thus more forgiveness may be provided.


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## ILOVE3D

Love the thread describing the tuning process on hybrid cams. Lots of really good info there. Any different tips for the new Mini Drive cams they are putting on the new Dominator Max MD?


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## tmorelli

ILOVE3D said:


> Love the thread describing the tuning process on hybrid cams. Lots of really good info there. Any different tips for the new Mini Drive cams they are putting on the new Dominator Max MD?


I sent you a PM. Basically, the only big difference in any of the drive type cams is in the fact that you can work the control cable an almost unlimited amount without affecting valley and let off, to control nock travel. 

So in the spirit of this thread, I would bare shaft it pretty close, then creep tune it....using mostly the control cable for vertical fixes. Then once it is creep tuned, finish bare shafting with the arrow rest as you wish.


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## gofast

ttt


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## Coug09

Thanks for the info guys. I could really see a hooter shooter being a HUGE benefit for this. Too bad I don't have one


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## tmorelli

Coug09 said:


> Thanks for the info guys. I could really see a hooter shooter being a HUGE benefit for this. Too bad I don't have one


I played with creep tuning a freak SP on my hooter shooter once.... I was learning the cams and couldn't believe the results I was getting, so I wanted verification. It "worked" on the hooter shooter, but I would never trust if as the final word. I want my hand in the grip, proving the results before I'm willing to accept them. 

It is hard to beat a hooter shooter for nock tuning though.


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## Padgett

Just last week I had a disaster indoor round, it was my first indoor league night of the winter and I warmed up dead on perfect for almost 30 minutes but as the start of the scoring round approached I started getting nervous. I shot the first 5 x's of the scoring round and then I got even more anxiety that slowed my shot routine down to a stand still. I had to run a more deliberate firing engine and I focused on the x and started shooting out the top about a 1/8 inch, my execution of the shots was really strong and I wasn't freaking out with target panic. I was just nervous and I really think that i was having to add a little back tension pre load to the shot to get it to run smoothly and I dropped enough x's to ruin my evening. By the end of the night I shot probably 25 x's in a row to finish the scoring round by aiming at the bottom half of the x and letting the arrows hit the top half of the x.

I hadn't thought about it until just now but I haven't creep tuned that bow with its current tune job, I have done the cam sync a couple times because I changed my draw length and i never did creep tune it. My specialist does respond to creep tuning and usually it will show about a one inch difference between sitting in the valley to pulling into the wall which would explain why it was shooting out the top.


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## ThunderEagle

tmorelli said:


> It is hard to beat a hooter shooter for nock tuning though.


This brings up a question I have. At what level does these extra tuning steps show up in your performance? I've never really nock or group tuned my arrows. Not exactly sure how to go about it, as I don't know that I'm consistent enough of a shot to really know if a difference is being made.


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## Coug09

tmorelli said:


> I played with creep tuning a freak SP on my hooter shooter once.... I was learning the cams and couldn't believe the results I was getting, so I wanted verification. It "worked" on the hooter shooter, but I would never trust if as the final word. I want my hand in the grip, proving the results before I'm willing to accept them.
> 
> It is hard to beat a hooter shooter for nock tuning though.



Tony I understand completely. That makes perfect sense


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## Padgett

Creep tuning to me is one of the things on the list of little jobs you can do to make your bow forgiving, forgiveness is something I really didn't understand back when I first starting reading about it and mainly because I sucked and my shooting just wasn't good enough to see the differences. Now that I am a solid shooter I can see through out a day of shooting the changes in my body due to fatigue or poor footing that can lead to executions that are different than the ones on perfect level ground in my back yard. This is when creep tuning and the other little jobs come into play.


NOW, HERE IS WHAT I AM GOING TO DO TONIGHT:

I am going to resist pulling out the hooter shooter and I am going to shoot for about 30 minutes and do nothing but creep tune by hand. I just shot a 300 27x vegas round with my specialist the last time I shot indoor so I am pretty sure it is dead on so I am going to put up a fresh 5-spot target.

1. I am going to shoot the top two x's by adding a good amount of preload into the wall and pull into the wall with my engine and shoot. 

2. Then I am going to shoot the bottom two x's by finding the wall and then creeping forward a little and using a rotation engine to fire the release.

3. Then I am going to shoot the middle x by finding the wall and touching it lightly and I am going to use the same rotation engine to fire the release without creeping or pulling into the wall.

Now I am going to do this with my cams perfectly synced until I can see a pattern of shooting out the top or the bottom and once I can see the pattern I am going to put a half twist into the cable and force the top cam to hit a little before the bottom cam and I will put up a fresh target and start shooting again and do the same routine until I see a pattern of the arrow still hitting high and low with the three different shots. If they are still hitting differently I will put another half twist into the cable and do another set of shots until I get a cam setting where they all seem to hit dead on perfect.

I don't consider myself to be a pro level shooter so for me to expect myself to be able to shoot good enough to see the patterns will take a little longer than a pro but I think I am good enough to do it with a few more shots before each half twist. We will see, it takes me a good 15 to 20 minutes to get my hooter shooter up and running where it will shoot the same hole and then after a few shots it wants to change so I have to get it back to speed and it is frustrating so maybe this will work out doing it by hand.


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## EPLC

tmorelli said:


> I played with creep tuning a freak SP on my hooter shooter once.... I was learning the cams and couldn't believe the results I was getting, so I wanted verification. It "worked" on the hooter shooter, but I would never trust if as the final word. I want my hand in the grip, proving the results before I'm willing to accept them.
> 
> It is hard to beat a hooter shooter for nock tuning though.


I also have a shooting machine and it can't be beat for tuning arrows/nocks. I also use it for a draw board and have done some creep tuning with it. I've never been 100% confident in the grip though. I can't see how you could possibly validate the grip as being the same as my own. Just isn't possible as the slightest variation in grip pressure/location can have such a big impact on tuning, and just about everything else for that matter.


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## tmorelli

ThunderEagle said:


> This brings up a question I have. At what level does these extra tuning steps show up in your performance? I've never really nock or group tuned my arrows. Not exactly sure how to go about it, as I don't know that I'm consistent enough of a shot to really know if a difference is being made.


I hate this response.... "it just depends".... it is kind of like "because I said so!" 

The primary factor on when nock tuning adds value seems to pivot on how "bad" the arrows are. If you have an arrow that misses by 2" (or even less) at 20 yards, you probably catch that and set it aside. If you have an arrow that misses by 1" at 40 yards.... you're going to have to be shooting well, and paying attention to ever catch it. But, we don't catch most of them, so the arrow that only misses slightly stays in the rotation and has the potential to cost you point, after point, after point on a 3d course.

I build by orienting on the visual spline inside the arrow. This normally leaves with 9+/12 shafts that pound the center. Normally, I can nock tune the others right into the group by spinning the nock. Sometimes, I have to change the nock, sometimes I have to change or reinstall the bushing....and occasionally, the shaft is just not salvageable. 

Where it gets really tricky is when you have shafts that change, and they do change. The most obvious way to prevent this is to protect, repair and replace your bushings/nocks. But sometimes the shafts themselves change. They go through a lot of abuse during our normal use. This is one of the reasons I really like "stiff" arrows for 3d. My opinion is that they change less over time because they are loaded to a lesser % of yield with each shot/impact cycle. If you are going to run "properly" spined shafts, they need to be of excellent quality or you stand the risk that they shoot great early on, and you struggle to group them down the road.


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## unclejane

this is pretty OCD, but I've been known to do it. You can diagnose errant shafts by shooting them bare before you fletch them. If any are "off" in any way, that'll show up pretty well without fletchings at a reasonable distance (that distance depending on how OCD you are about your tune).

These days, tho, I shoot way overspined arrows so with good shafts like my goldtips, a weak one has to be really weak to show a difference at the target. So I pretty much don't do this test anymore. Back in the aluminum shaft days, tho, it did yield a weak shaft here and there from time to time.

LS


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## Padgett

Tmorelli is so right about the arrow changing and I like the way talked about arrows in general, I battled this for a few years with a variety of arrows and over time i have found a setup that really holds its group tune for the life of the shaft. For me I am finding that my shrewd bushings fitted with deep six nocks really stands up to the abuse of thousands of shots and they simply just don't change, even when the bushing gets hit enough to leave a deep groove and dent the shaft a little the arrow will still hit the same hole. The deep six nocks last the life of the shaft which can be months of 3d tournaments and daily shooting with no signs of wear or poi changes, the only time I replace them is when I have direct impacts that break them.

The other thing I have had a lot of luck with is the stainless steel knock busters, they are the glue in points that cost 40 bucks a dozen but they are a very hard steel that doesn't bend creating wobbles, I do have to take a file and fix the point sometimes after hitting something in a target but again I have never had to ditch a knock buster point because it had been damaged.

Third is the gold tip shafts, they simply don't change for me. The first thing you will notice is that after you shoot a dozen of them for a year even after the labels vanish from the abuse when you inspect the shafts there are no weird things going on with the finish, in fact all of mine will look absolutely perfect from a finish stand point. The only issue I have ever had with my gold tips is that I super glue in my points and in the first season I used them I had to knock out my points a few times until I found the point weight that I was willing to stay with currently and after heating up the shafts and also doing the drill bit trick the inner carbon came out on a few of them like a birth day ribbon. I know that they had been changed about 3 times before it happened. Other than that issue these arrows are simple one piece of equipment that i use that I trust to do their job month after month with absolutely no maintenance required other than some new feathers from time to time. Oh yeah when you are stripping off the feathers you don't have to worry about getting down into the carbon and ruining the shaft like with many other brands.


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## SonnyThomas

When I practice....When is good word considering 20 degrees high for two weeks. I shoot 1 and 2 arrows, but have a arrow tube full of arrows. Arrow nails the X it goes off to the side. Next arrow nails the X is goes off to the side and so on. 30 yards is my test distance. The arrow that doesn't nail the X gets going over later. And I may do this all the way back to 35 and 40 yards, 40 being my max in ASA events. So culling arrows is no big deal. Correcting the ill giving arrow is not really a big deal either, but especially so with quality arrows. Like Tony noted, turn the nock, replace the nock or replace the pin bushing.

Things I detest; easily to slip in inserts, points and pin bushings. I want snug, period. Pin bushings....grrrrr... seem to be worst offenders. My CXL's pin bushings always pressed in, but others get the thin plastic bag treatment. Fine, but I spin my arrows to check for run out. My large Apple arrow spinner has paid for it's self... 

Pin bushings do protect the shaft, but that ding on the edge of the pin bushing shoulder...watch it or better yet, replace the pin bushing.

Those ASA 12 rings are 1.500" in diameter and the targets set farther than 20 yards. ??? Said average distance at last year's ASA Illinois State Champion was over 30 yards for us in Super Senior....I think my closest was 23 yards. 

Here's a half dozen arrows that past my test with my target bow and shot with my Play Toy and 2nd day of being set up, 294 fps. Not bad for 40 yards (getting in and scaring the X nicely). Forgive me for the bow and price tag still on the bow...that new at the time.


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## Ned250

tmorelli said:


> I hate this response.... "it just depends".... it is kind of like "because I said so!"
> 
> The primary factor on when nock tuning adds value seems to pivot on how "bad" the arrows are. If you have an arrow that misses by 2" (or even less) at 20 yards, you probably catch that and set it aside. If you have an arrow that misses by 1" at 40 yards.... you're going to have to be shooting well, and paying attention to ever catch it. But, we don't catch most of them, so the arrow that only misses slightly stays in the rotation and has the potential to cost you point, after point, after point on a 3d course.
> 
> I build by orienting on the visual spline inside the arrow. This normally leaves with 9+/12 shafts that pound the center. Normally, I can nock tune the others right into the group by spinning the nock. Sometimes, I have to change the nock, sometimes I have to change or reinstall the bushing....and occasionally, the shaft is just not salvageable.
> 
> Where it gets really tricky is when you have shafts that change, and they do change. The most obvious way to prevent this is to protect, repair and replace your bushings/nocks. But sometimes the shafts themselves change. They go through a lot of abuse during our normal use. This is one of the reasons I really like "stiff" arrows for 3d. My opinion is that they change less over time because they are loaded to a lesser % of yield with each shot/impact cycle. If you are going to run "properly" spined shafts, they need to be of excellent quality or you stand the risk that they shoot great early on, and you struggle to group them down the road.


I'm curious about your findings on this. Don't you shoot gold tip? Tim G's recent article states the opposite about the gold tips.

Thanks for opening up the vault, btw. Great posts by you recently.


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## tmorelli

Ned250 said:


> I'm curious about your findings on this. Don't you shoot gold tip? Tim G's recent article states the opposite about the gold tips.
> 
> Thanks for opening up the vault, btw. Great posts by you recently.


No, that is my experience and why I shoot GT. I have had a lot of trouble out of other carbons. If I didn't shoot GT, everything I owned would be aluminum, or have aluminum in it.


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## Garceau

who else things EPLC should make us all a shooter as his - I have seen a lot of home made shooters and that one is really nice and simple.


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## Padgett

Garceau, if he gives you one before me I will kick you in the knee the next time I see you at a asa.


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## Garceau

Ft Benning - I don't want him to give me one. If the price is good I will pay for one......

although the way I am shooting, I will probably shoot myself in the knee before you can kick me. Downright awful


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## tmorelli

It is nice. 

Where is the "recent article" from Gillingham? I'm not sure I've seen it, or if I have, I can't imagine how I'd contradict it in my statement above.


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## Mahly

tmorelli said:


> It is nice.
> 
> Where is the "recent article" from Gillingham? I'm not sure I've seen it, or if I have, I can't imagine how I'd contradict it in my statement above.


Think this is what they are talking about

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2424160


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## SonnyThomas

tmorelli said:


> It is nice.
> 
> Where is the "recent article" from Gillingham? I'm not sure I've seen it, or if I have, I can't imagine how I'd contradict it in my statement above.


Don't if the one I posted is the most recent. He had the Tilt Tamer mentioned, which, I take it, is no longer available. And someone told me he now checks his arrows with a Hooter Shooter.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2424160


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## ThunderEagle

tmorelli said:


> I hate this response.... "it just depends".... it is kind of like "because I said so!"


You shouldn't hate it, it is a perfectly valid response. At one time I was active in online poker, and studied the game, and was a member of a forum that discussed it to death. Quite often the answer to almost every situation was "it depends". Then we would go into what it depended upon.

The reason I asked the question is that I cannot hit the same exact hole on every shot, so how do I really know if I need to turn a nock? I will number arrows and try to keep track if one is a flier or not, however just about when I think one isn't grouping with the rest, it finds the center on successive shots and another arrow that was grouping before, is now out wide.


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## SonnyThomas

ThunderEagle said:


> You shouldn't hate it, it is a perfectly valid response. At one time I was active in online poker, and studied the game, and was a member of a forum that discussed it to death. Quite often the answer to almost every situation was "it depends". Then we would go into what it depended upon.
> 
> The reason I asked the question is that I cannot hit the same exact hole on every shot, so how do I really know if I need to turn a nock? I will number arrows and try to keep track if one is a flier or not, however just about when I think one isn't grouping with the rest, it finds the center on successive shots and another arrow that was grouping before, is now out wide.


If a arrow goes in great 5 and 6 times and then flies out you should know who caused it  

Conditions weren't what I called nice this morning, not 34 degrees and just enough cold and tiny bit of breeze to make my eyes water. Glove on and my hand still got cold, red cold. Haven't shot since Feb 12th, I think. So a few shots to get re-acquainted and get the back working correctly. Thought was good after a few shots...more of saying; "It's cold! Get this over with!" Shot two sets of 3 arrows from 20 yards. It gets warmer and I'll see how things go. 
These are the arrows I won in the drawing in General Archery Discussion, Absolute .22s. A little stiff for 55 pounds and 28 1/2" draw. First test of the arrow. Using a 47 gr insert and 100 gr Easton Field points. Arrows weigh 380 grs. by my Black Box electronic scale.


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## ThunderEagle

SonnyThomas said:


> If a arrow goes in great 5 and 6 times and then flies out you should know who caused it


Yes, I know it is my fault. My point is, I've never turned a nock and I don't know that I can point to an arrow that wasn't withing my shooting tolerance. In general, once I got more serious about target archery, I've shot Victory VAPs outdoor (X-Impacts last year, going back to VAPs this year), always fletch them with the cock vane aligned with the crest on the arrow. I'm shooting X7 2712's indoor with 4" feathers, not sure where those are aligned, however the shop fletched them.

That is basically my point, how good do you need to be in the first place, for nock/group tuning to really even be possible? Sure, with a hooter shooter anyone can do it. Is this more of a confidence thing, or is this more of a 300 57x vs 300 60x thing?


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## Padgett

Thunder eagle, there are things that you can do to give yourself confidence in your arrows. One of the easiest things is to strip off the fletching and tune your bow to one of your bare shafts so that it is shooting really freaking good. I prefer to be able to get bullet holes with my bare shafts all the way back to 20 yards at any distance. Now once you have the bow shooting this good just go to some distance 20 yards or 15 yards and then pick another one of your arrows and shoot it through the paper and it is either going to give you a perfect tear just like the bare shaft that you did the tuning with or you need to turn the nock. So shoot it and turn the nock until you get a bullet hole and then move onto the next shaft. In a matter of 20 minutes you can have all of your arrows group tuned really good and then you fletch them so that the cock feather is on top in that setting. I use a sharpie or pencil to mark the location of the nock and where the feather should go and then I can do the fletch job and then put the nock back.


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## Padgett

Thunder eagle, I used to shoot 3d and i was religious about my competition arrow because my arrows just didn't shoot the same. They were expensive arrows but I had to number them and pay attention to them to make sure I was shooting the one that was actually sighted in and if a buddy blew up my good arrow it sucked because I had to now try and win with a secondary arrow and it may take a few targets to get it dialed in. 

I wasn't a very good shooter back then and I had tried to turn nocks when shooting at 60 yards and group tune my arrows but I just wasn't good enough to do it. For me the hooter shooter changed that problem because it gave me the ability to get them to shoot the same hole as a group and then I had 100% confidence in any arrow in my quiver.


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## ThunderEagle

I'm actually fairly confident in my indoor arrows right now. In terms of league this year, it is my best year yet with currently no scores below 430 (450 Vegas league). Of course I'll go out tonight and shoot a clunker now that I said that. 

Last week I thought/felt I had a bad round, and still ended up with a 430. Mind you, my personal best was a few weeks ago with a 438, and before leagues started, I was lucky to be scoring in the low 420's. I'm a little concerned I've been tapering off since the personal best.

My fat aluminum arrows have been the most "forgiving" arrows I have ever shot.

The question will be what spine and tip weight I'm going to go with for outdoor this year, and if I put the weight back up for outdoor vs the lower weight I've had for indoor so far this year. Questions for later though, as I have the Ohio State Indoor this weekend. Been really struggling on the 5 spot face, and I've never shot a 300, would be sweet to do that this weekend and I don't give a rip about X count.


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## Padgett

Just enjoy the shoot and execute good shots every end and you will be good to go. I had a disaster round last week where my score wasn't very good but you know when I got home I really wasn't mad at myself and my executions. I was nervous and I found myself in the later half of my shot window where my pin begins to leave the x and I just missed a few.


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## EPLC

Garceau said:


> who else things EPLC should make us all a shooter as his - I have seen a lot of home made shooters and that one is really nice and simple.





Padgett said:


> Garceau, if he gives you one before me I will kick you in the knee the next time I see you at a asa.





Garceau said:


> Ft Benning - I don't want him to give me one. If the price is good I will pay for one......
> 
> although the way I am shooting, I will probably shoot myself in the knee before you can kick me. Downright awful


It did come out quite well and shoots as good as it looks. I get same arrow one hole with it consistently. It's my design but a friend did all the welding so I'm afraid its going to stay a one of a kind for the foreseeable future.


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## Padgett

Now you are just being stingy keeping it to yourself.


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## SonnyThomas

ThunderEagle said:


> Yes, I know it is my fault. My point is, I've never turned a nock and I don't know that I can point to an arrow that wasn't withing my shooting tolerance. In general, once I got more serious about target archery, I've shot Victory VAPs outdoor (X-Impacts last year, going back to VAPs this year), always fletch them with the cock vane aligned with the crest on the arrow. I'm shooting X7 2712's indoor with 4" feathers, not sure where those are aligned, however the shop fletched them.
> 
> That is basically my point, how good do you need to be in the first place, for nock/group tuning to really even be possible? Sure, with a hooter shooter anyone can do it. Is this more of a confidence thing, or is this more of a 300 57x vs 300 60x thing?


It's the damn arrow rocket science that goes on forever. If your arrows are tight grouping, shoot them. Want them tighter, shoot a longer distance and have your arrows numbered. Shoot 40 yards with enough arrows to call a group, half a dozen, and check which one or more went out from the group...and then shoot again and if same arrow, set it/them off to the side or turn the nock or pin bushing or change them both out. Then see how it performs. Have more arrows, do the same thing....

By and large factories fletch their arrows as they go in the jig. Why? Because generally they fly good out to at least 40 yards... Yep, you'll have one or two wander, but you can have fun in the back yard, even compete in 3D and do well in longer archery events. Nock tune factory fletched arrows and be maybe a little more to greatly more accurate.... I've seen it done. 

My first ever Indoor. Old Man Archer (here) talked me into it. I bought a boxed dozen camo Super Slams, 2413s factory fletched, inserts and 100 gr field points and I nocked tuned them. Got to the IAA event. My God in Heaven, it was the Vegas face! I'd never seen one before! Adult Free Style with my 3D bow, 15 or more in my class. I always shot outside. Inside, I found I off horizontally. I had 10 shots to correct and my brain frying to understand why I was off. Packed on the line like sardines in a can. I placed 5th and half scared to death doing it. Some ding dong beside me, a raving maniac as far as I was concerned. Some jerk ever so often nailing the steel exit door that gave a sound of a shotgun going off. Nervous, I shot the target left of mine. Yes, a zero. Glad it was his target instead of the raving maniac on the other side of me..... My score was not outstanding, 578 I think, but still, 5th in my first ever Indoor....There wasn't anything wrong with my bow. Lighting was cause of my sighting issue. There wasn't anything wrong with my arrows. It was all me that was the problem.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> My first ever Indoor. Old Man Archer (here) talked me into it. I bought a boxed dozen camo Super Slams, 2413s factory fletched, inserts and 100 gr field points and I nocked tuned them. Got to the IAA event. My God in Heaven, it was the Vegas face! I'd never seen one before! Adult Free Style with my 3D bow, 15 or more in my class. I always shot outside. Inside, I found I off horizontally. I had 10 shots to correct and my brain frying to understand why I was off. Packed on the line like sardines in a can. I placed 5th and half scared to death doing it. Some ding dong beside me, a raving maniac as far as I was concerned. Some jerk ever so often nailing the steel exit door that gave a sound of a shotgun going off. Nervous, I shot the target left of mine. Yes, a zero. Glad it was his target instead of the raving maniac on the other side of me..... My score was not outstanding, 578 I think, but still, 5th in my first ever Indoor....There wasn't anything wrong with my bow. Lighting was cause of my sighting issue. There wasn't anything wrong with my arrows. It was all me that was the problem.


I apologize. It's been years ago.... I shot Bow Hunter Free Style using a Scott Mongoose index release, a 5 pin Cobra sight and Hoyt solid Vexor.
Got to think and started digging. Little dusty...


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## Padgett

I totally failed last night to do the little creep tune session that I wanted to do, my shooting range was full and I just decided to bang a few x's instead of doing the session. I'll get it done sooner or later.


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## tmorelli

Padgett said:


> I totally failed last night to do the little creep tune session that I wanted to do, my shooting range was full and I just decided to bang a few x's instead of doing the session. I'll get it done sooner or later.


You can improve the situation with just a few shots. 

I hang a piece of electrical tape, sight in on the edge of it. Bang, bang, bang....I know my good shots hit the edge of the tape.

Now, pull hard (or creep)....bang, bang, bang.... Did those hit higher, or lower?

Adjust. Repeat.


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## SonnyThomas

tmorelli said:


> You can improve the situation with just a few shots.
> 
> I hang a piece of electrical tape, sight in on the edge of it. Bang, bang, bang....I know my good shots hit the edge of the tape.
> 
> Now, pull hard (or creep)....bang, bang, bang.... Did those hit higher, or lower?
> 
> Adjust. Repeat.


date 2011. This would be my 2010 or 2011 Martin Shadowcat. Martin Nitro cams (any of the Cat cams for that matter) are a little different than other binaries or the 41 1/2 and 41 1/4" ata maybe had something to do with creep tuning. What I did was remove the rubber limb pad for the draw stop and adjust the draw stop and presto. One of them I had to advance the top cam either a half or full twist and then did the same, removed pad and adjusted the draw stop...Neither one took all that long.


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## Padgett

Tmorelli, I know deep down I am good enough to do it but my problem is that all the times I did it with my hooter shooter one half twist totally changed it from being creep tuned to not creep tuned at all. Of all the tuning that I have ever done from paper tuning to bare shaft tuning I have never seen anything as picky as creep tuning so I guess this is why I felt like I would have to take my time and shoot a good chunk of shots.

I will keep it in mind and give it a go, i just found out my little girl is a little sick and I have to take her to a doc appt after school so I won't be doing it today.

Now I guarantee you that i have already decided that once I get this done and find what I think is the creep tuned setting I am going to fire up the hooter shooter and check and see what it tells me. I am excited because I really don't enjoy using the hooter shooter because it is finicky so if it shows that doing it by hand gives me the same results I will be really happy.


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## unclejane

Actually, I've found that 1/2 twist makes a difference when creep tuning by hand also. You don't need no steenkeeng hootershooter! (just kidding)... I pulled out the hinge and did a creep tune on my Hoyt last night - it was actually way way off, which didn't surprise me, throwing a huge knock-high bareshaft when pulling hard into the wall. By the end of it, I was down to a 1/2 turn on the lower wheel cable to dial it completely or nearly in. My knock point had also dropped almost 1/4", down to about level where it probably "should" be.

But even shooting with a pull-through release, the bow is already more forgiving. So creep tuning really is a good investment, IMO....

LS


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## ron w

when creep tuning by hand,..... or on a hooter shooter, for that matter,..... what makes the big difference is that the creep tuning exposes the very first tiny bit of nock movement as being either straight ahead, or slightly jumping up, or slightly jumping down. once that first bit of movement is made, there isn't really much variation in the rest of the nock's travel that produces the high or low arrow.
this is also why such small adjustments, (such as a half a twist) shows up so much. the effects of an out of tune creep, will only be apparent in the very first movement of nock travel, but during that minute time, the elevation of the entire bow's thrust on the arrow is established, thereby producing the slightly high or low POI.
the idea is that the small adjustment, establishes that both cams come off the stops with the same force and the same speed, at the exact same time, making the nock move straight forward, with no immediate jump or dip, that occurs when one cam starts out before the other.
if the arrow's, POI is high at the target, the top cam starts out ahead of the bottom cam and vise-verse.
there are 720 inches in 20 yards, so angularly, if the arrow hits an inch high at 20 yrds, the top cam, jumped the arrow up one-720TH, of an inch, before the bottom cam started moving.
creep tuning makes the bow less sensitive to this condition of one cam starting before the other and more forgiving of inconsistent pressure against the wall.


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## Padgett

My problem with the by hand method is that it depends on my personal accuracy of that day, in the last two days I think I have shot about 300 arrows and I missed 3 total 5-spot x's and even though that is pretty good I really don't think I was shooting good enough to creep tune by hand. Today I was about 75% inside out for the hour and a half that I shot and I still don't know it that really is good enough. When I creep tune with my hooter shooter I have to have a good day where I can keep it in the same hole type accuracy and that isn't a easy thing for a entire session either but usually I can pull it off.


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## Padgett

One of the things you have to remember about creep tuning is that you are basically de tuning the bow down a little. I usually do my tuning and get perfect arrow flight with paper tuning and bare shaft tuning out to 30 yards and then I do a creep tuning session and when I creep tune I refuse to check the arrow flight after doing it. Because I believe that my bare shaft tuning was a perfect setting when I am shooting perfect shots with the exact same hold into the wall, what creep tuning does is de tune the bow just a little and it gives a more average nock travel where you allow the bow to be creeped forward a little and pulled into the wall a little extra and the average setting that allows all three of them to hit the same is the key which is a few half twists away from the perfect setting that you had previously found.

If you could execute perfect shots 100% of the time then creep tuning wouldn't be needed but since we aren't a shooting machine we actually are better off with this slightly de tuned setting.


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## huntforfood703

tagged


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## ron w

even with a "perfect execution 100% of the time", creep tuning is still absolutely necessary, because it establishes that both cams take off at the exact (or as exactly possible) same time, as can be reasonably established. no matter if your execution is perfect or not, it is still essential that both cams leave at the same time, all the time. creep tuning establishes this condition.
you're not "detuning" the bow by creep tuning, you are tuning the bow to work more exactly within the conditions of it use. the more exactly it works with these conditions of use, the better tuned the bow is.


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## unclejane

I sure can't argue with the results of a good creep tune on my Hoyt for sure. That thing just absolutely crushes the spider now..... 

But I agree with Ron, the creep tune really establishes a correct cam/wheel synchronization. You can tune a bow with the wheels off a good bit, generally with a knocking point that's significantly high or low (say 3/16" or more off level I would call "high or low"), and it will shoot very well. But only if you're extremely consistent in how hard (or not) you pull into the wall. Any variation and you'll start to see that vertical football type grouping at the target.

Even with a pull-through release, my Hoyt was giving me slight ups and downs the last couple weeks. I finally decided to check the creep tune last night and the results were pretty shocking. Needless to say, I went ahead and invested about an hour's work in dialing that out, especially once I saw what was happening LOL.

Now it just pinwheels the target every time, and no more ups and downs with the bareshaft. A good creep tune is a pretty big step up in forgiveness overall....

LS


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## bonecollector66

tag to read later


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> If you could execute perfect shots 100% of the time then creep tuning wouldn't be needed but since we aren't a shooting machine we actually are better off with this slightly de tuned setting.


Something I wouldn't have brought up. Tuning is tuning and the bow is shooting great for you it can't be classed as de-tuned.


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## ron w

SonnyThomas said:


> Tuning is tuning and the bow is shooting great for you it can't be classed as de-tuned.


 exactly my point !.


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## Coug09

Hey Tony,

Have you messed with creep tuning any of the Mathews Chill series (specifically the X) or the NoCams? 

I feel like if I had the top cam advanced to the point the stop hits early it would be hard to pull into the bottom stops. The rock mods are pretty solid


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## tmorelli

Coug09 said:


> Hey Tony,
> 
> Have you messed with creep tuning any of the Mathews Chill series (specifically the X) or the NoCams?
> 
> I feel like if I had the top cam advanced to the point the stop hits early it would be hard to pull into the bottom stops. The rock mods are pretty solid


I have helped a friend through it. It went as expected and they were very, very close to even. My experience has been that binary(ish) cams don't respond much beyond just timing them dead even. 

The only binary-ish cams I've done myself were Bowtech Specialists...and I ended up with my best performance right at dead even.


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## ron w

yup, binaries are a bit of a different animal , when comes to creep tuning. because of that slave cable, the entire system is more oriented towards being a closed loop of forces that has a tendency to compensate for synch issues, by transferring the imbalance to the only flexible part of the loop....the limbs. if you recall the problems with BowTech's airborne series of bows and the limb problems they had. 
i think lack of creep tuning was largely responsible for the whole mess. people didn't creep tune those bows, because it was thought that with the cams slaved together, creep tuning wasn't necessary, or accomplishable, for that matter. what that did, was transfer the differential shock of two cams coming to rest at slightly different times, directly into the limbs.
I have one such bow, a 101st Airborne, that still has it's original limbs and I think it does, because I went through the trouble of creep tuning the bow, even with the slaved together cams.
in my mind, it only stands to reason, that even though the cams are slaved to rotate evenly, it doesn't necessarily mean that they both hit their rest positions at the same time, because tiller dictates the stresses in each limb independently. 
obviously this applies to a bow that is now 7 years old, and limb technology has certainly improved since then, but the same theory would apply to bows of binary design today. it's only that limbs are reasonably tougher today, that we don't see much problem in this area, on today's binary bows.

....just a thought..... an educated guess. it boils down to my not being able to see any other reasonable explanation for the problems they had and the observation that no-one I know of, thought about creep tuning those bows, back then,.... even though they were essentially just a "twin-cam" bow, that should be creep tuned for obvious reasons.


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## montigre

tmorelli said:


> The only binary-ish cams I've done myself were Bowtech Specialists...and I ended up with my best performance right at dead even.


Agreed. I recently set up a Bowtech Fuel (my first foray into binaries) for our adaptive millitary archery program and those cams (and nocking point, for that matter) ended up being pretty much dead even. It made me go hummm, but was a very good learning experience for me as I am always looking for viable ways of expanding my archery knowledge base.


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## SonnyThomas

I can only agree with Tony, ron and montigre. My first venture with binaries was with Martin's Cat Cams on the 2008 FireCat and on the 2010 and 2011 Nitro cams and the Hybrix cams of the Rytera line (still a Cat or Nitro cam). They did not like the top cam advanced like my Hoyts. The Pearson Legend and LSM cams are the same, they don't care for the top cam to be advanced. In fact these Pearson cams have the timing tab right out in the open. You can actually use a feeler gage to time them. So out in the open it more seems you have to go backwards, one cam has back off, not advance the other.


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## Mahly

I have also found my Moxie much prefers the cams timed evenly.


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## ron w

for all practical purposes, even cam timing with a binary system, only makes sense. because the cams are slaved together, they are forced to rotate at the same "speed and synch" every time they rotate. therefore, it is only the limbs that are able to influence their rotation, as a pair. if the limbs are closely matched in deflection, the system, as a working model, will produce the best nock travel, when limb deflection throughout their entire working range, is as close to even, or "equal" as possible.
the less the slaved together cams have to fight any inequalities in limb deflection, the straighter the nock travel will be during the limbs working time. the fact that the cams are slaved together, is the same circumstance as something like a twin engine dragster......when both engines are tuned to exactly the same level of performance, one engine doesn't fight the other and curb the performance of both as a single unit.


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## Padgett

I have never had my specialist shoot its best with the cams perfectly synced, I have shot it for years and every time I creep tune it I start with the cams perfectly synced and it produces slightly over a inch difference in vertical poi as I shoot. Then once I creep tune it I can completely get rid of any vertical difference and the arrows will hit the same hole.

Why do I always start with them perfectly synced because it only takes a very few half twists and I am done so if I started with my top cam already hitting before the bottom one then I might already be to much advanced and by putting more half twists waste time going to far.


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## unclejane

I agree with Shawn, perfectly synced on basically any bow is the best starting point for a creep tune. Mainly because it's usually pretty close to where you actually end up and it saves time and aggravation. As well as bullet holes in the wall around the bail LOL.

My PSE's creep tuned out of the box with the cam timing marks simply lined up with the cables. I haven't checked on either if that corresponds to a perfect sync, though - they have the ME hybrid cams so it's possible they're actually "off" slightly. One day when I'm tinkering I might check and see.

My Hoyt wheel bow creep tunes quite a bit off, however. The bottom wheel is noticeably [email protected] timing-wise with respect to the top one. Probably has to do with the asymmetry of the knocking point (3" to 4" above the center of the draw string).

So I have found starting perfectly synced gives the least hair pulling when doing the creep tune, but it doesn't surprise me if you end up off in one direction or other.

LS


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## tmorelli

Padgett said:


> I have never had my specialist shoot its best with the cams perfectly synced, I have shot it for years and every time I creep tune it I start with the cams perfectly synced and it produces slightly over a inch difference in vertical poi as I shoot. Then once I creep tune it I can completely get rid of any vertical difference and the arrows will hit the same hole.
> 
> Why do I always start with them perfectly synced because it only takes a very few half twists and I am done so if I started with my top cam already hitting before the bottom one then I might already be to much advanced and by putting more half twists waste time going to far.


I had three Specialists. None of them creep tuned off synch. What they did do is aim horribly when out of synch. 

Are you seeing a difference in aiming as you change the synch with creep tuning? Are you leaving the stops in the "right" hole while/after creep tuning? I was seeing that 1/2 twist was way too coarse of an adjustment on those cams.... I did the majority of my maintenance timing with the yokes for a finer adjustment.

Are you tillering the bow at all?... or just maxed/equal turns from max?


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## Padgett

Good questions, I totally see what you are saying about the cams changing a bunch with just a half twist. That is why I do a half twist on the non yoke end when I need to make big changes and I do a half twist on each yoke when I need to do a smaller change. I never have been a tiller tuner and still don't really see a reason to do so, i am sure there is but I just don't do it.

I really think the main reason I have the success that I do have with my tuning is that I move the d-loop more than most people as my main tuning area, to me most people have some preset nock position in their head and they set their nock and refuse to touch it and then they have to do things like tiller tune to change what they have set in stone.

As far as aiming and feeling a difference I don't, I do use a lot of back tension preload that squeezes the pegs into the cables completely so I am not just sitting against the wall. Right now I have the pegs set in the 65% let off position so there is no valley and any creeping is bad.

As far as moving my pegs to different locations other than the factory location for the mod setting I have never done any messing around with that.


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## tmorelli

As much as you talk about float, stabilization and d-loop position.... I can say with confidence, you are tillering.... you just aren't doing it with the limb bolts.


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## Padgett

Holy crap, I don't even remember where or how my limbs got to where they are currently located. I think I am drawing 52lbs with it and it has a holding weight around 16.5 pounds. More than likely I had it bottomed out and then backed out the limbs the same number of turns, I can't remember.


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## Padgett

Probably, I know that nuts and bolts goes over using tiller to change the nock height all the time.

I personally think that my bow is set to some tiller setting like you mentioned where I have bottomed out the limbs and then backed them off equally to some poundage that I want to shoot with that bow to lets say get to asa speed. This pretty much sets in stone a specific tiller adjustment that I am willing to live with and then what I do is move the d-loop up and down the string a little until I find the sweet spot for that setting where I get perfect arrow flight. For me it has always worked and it is something I can get done in a matter of minutes and then move on.


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## tmorelli

I don't use tiller for arrow flight, I use it for aiming.


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## ron w

you are right to some degree about the loop position being "set in stone" to some people, but I think the reason has more to do with not understanding what moving the loop actually does to nock travel, vs. tiller, vs, twisting string or yoke. it's the old, "there's more than one way to skin a cat" adage, with a twist on the fact that one way might be a little better than another, for certain problems, but they all end up with a skinned cat, eventually. it's all about which method(s) any particular person has best learned, or is most comfortable with. we all tend to gravitate towards what we know best.


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## Padgett

I don't like wasting time and I don't like over looking something that could make me better, floating my arrows in a bathtub is something that I simply don't think is going to make me better. Tiller tuning is in that category to me, I have spend a good chunk of time in the past studying my float and turning the limb bolts and looking for some change in my float but I never did see any change. Maybe if I had a person like you that was good at it they could have directed me in the right direction to actually use it to my advantage. 

My overall opinion of tiller tuning is that it changes the angle of the riser which allows you to customize the feel of your grip and it also changes the cam sync and timing of your bow so you can use it to mess with arrow flight and nock travel.


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## Padgett

I am doing nothing but stinking training right now because of money so I might be willing to twist a limb bolt, so right now my specialist is freaking dead on and my pin is just sitting inside the x most of the time and the float pattern is within the x so what am I looking for when I turn a limb bolt. Also which one do I turn the top one or bottom one and how much per turn?


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## Padgett

I totally agree ronw, I taught myself how to tune and didn't even know that tiller tuning existed so it wasn't something I knew to use so I used other things and moving the d-loop always proved to be the one thing that stood out as a must do thing early in the tuning process.

in fact my old bowtech guardian that I learned to tune with has never been cam synced or creep tuned, I had no freaking idea what I was doing with that bow and the only two things I used to tune it were moving the d-loop and moving the rest. It always shot awesome, in fact it didn't even come with timing marks so you had to use a sharpie to put some on it to see when the bow changed. 

From there I learned the importance of cam sync and what it actually meant and then I moved on to learn how to use cam lean to my advantage, all of these things are just part of the bag of tricks to get a bow up and running.


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## tmorelli

If you just want to experiment, take a half turn out of the top, put a half turn in the bottom (a pretty coarse adjustment).... see what changes.


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## SonnyThomas

unclejane said:


> I agree with Shawn, perfectly synced on basically any bow is the best starting point for a creep tune. Mainly because it's usually pretty close to where you actually end up and it saves time and aggravation. As well as bullet holes in the wall around the bail LOL.
> .
> 
> My Hoyt wheel bow creep tunes quite a bit off, however. The bottom wheel is noticeably [email protected] timing-wise with respect to the top one. Probably has to do with the asymmetry of the knocking point (3" to 4" above the center of the draw string).
> 
> So I have found starting perfectly synced gives the least hair pulling when doing the creep tune, but it doesn't surprise me if you end up off in one direction or other.
> 
> LS


Hoyt's Cam & 1/2 is what it is, cam and half cam. Explained to me many years ago by the JAVI the top cam is more a oval wheel and why it seems to like the top cam advanced a bit. Timed perfect the top cam needs only half to one full twist. Any more than this is usually due to the size of the shooter's hand or grip. Though advanced slightly I couldn't feel the "double cutch" like when the top was behind the bottom cam hitting...


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## Padgett

Cool, I don't get to shoot after school today but I think I will tomorrow.


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## ron w

tmorelli, you probably remember this as well as I do,...
it seems that tiller tuning was a lot bigger an issue on the bows we used to shoot, those with round wheels. i'm thinking it was because of their length. tiller adjustments had a lot more leverage against riser position back then.


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## cbrunson

It makes quite a bit of difference on aiming, and arrow flight (depending on grip position)


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## ron w

tmorelli said:


> As much as you talk about float, stabilization and d-loop position.... I can say with confidence, you are tillering.... you just aren't doing it with the limb bolts.


 yup, when you move the loop, you change tiller.


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## tmorelli

ron w said:


> tmorelli, you probably remember this as well as I do,...
> it seems that tiller tuning was a lot bigger an issue on the bows we used to shoot, those with round wheels. i'm thinking it was because of their length. tiller adjustments had a lot more leverage against riser position back then.


Yes, but, I was a kid. My coach managed my equipment until the late-90's. I remember most preliminary settings were done off measurements and we didn't spend much time tiller tuning after that (as I recall). I go about it differently now....primarily tuning how bow aims with tiller (amongst other things). To your point, I went for a long period of time ignoring it.... Mentally on the premise of minimal value to parallel limbs. I've since learned that I was wrong. I haven't pondered the role of AtA in the equation. 


ron w said:


> yup, when you move the loop, you change tiller.


Well, kind of. Moving the loop alone doesn't change the brace end of things in the same way that tiller does.


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## Ned250

I've used the bottom limb bolt to clean up vertical nock travel when my bare shafts are just a hair nock high. Half turn is always what was needed. It's a good cheap way of micro adjusting your nock height when you're less than 1/16" off. 

My hold probably isn't good enough to notice a change in a half turn.


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## ron w

yea, I guess you're right about the brace issue. I was speaking mainly in terms of changing the attitude of the riser in your hand. you're right, that's not really a "tiller" change,...my bad....put brain in gear before mouth !


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## carlosii

SonnyThomas said:


> General Archery Information Page 3, by George Ryals, aka Griv.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453865
> 
> Customers and those practicing always wanted to know why I had these made up. Works for creep tuning, sighting (removes the "stay in the circle," both horizontal and vertical) and short range French tuning.


Eight year old post by GRIV...that's the kind of stuff AT had going on in the "old" days...before bow bashing became the norm.

Thanks, Sonny.


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## unclejane

SonnyThomas said:


> Hoyt's Cam & 1/2 is what it is, cam and half cam. Explained to me many years ago by the JAVI the top cam is more a oval wheel and why it seems to like the top cam advanced a bit. Timed perfect the top cam needs only half to one full twist. Any more than this is usually due to the size of the shooter's hand or grip. Though advanced slightly I couldn't feel the "double cutch" like when the top was behind the bottom cam hitting...


I'll have to check how my PSE has come out cam-sync-wise, since it's a hybrid cam system. I just haven't messed with it since once I get a good tune I try to just forget about the bow and shoot LOL.

My Hoyt has old-timey wheels, tho, with the knock point/berger hole a good 3 maybe 4" above the center of the string. So it's a goofball affair sort of to tune - all the settings like the yokes, cable length, center shot and knocking point interact a little. You might adjust a yoke to straighten out some lean, and suddenly you got a little knock-high on the bareshaft. So back you go to the press to put a turn in the other cable, etc. So you end up adjusting almost all of them to get everything working right. So that smooth easy draw comes at a price LOL. Crushes the spider once setup, but it can sure put some grey in your hair to get it all straightened out.

My supra max, tho, you mostly just set it up with a bow square and it shoots a proper bare shaft or close to it out of the box.... So maybe that's part of why big wheel bows have gone kind of the way of the dinosaur, who knows....

LS


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## grantmac

Just a thought:

I'm going to start tuning my first set of Martin binary cams (Cat 1.5 I believe). Could a person just move the single draw-stop a little each direction to mimic the creep then execute the same shot? Makes sense in my mind.

-Grant


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## unclejane

grantmac said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> I'm going to start tuning my first set of Martin binary cams (Cat 1.5 I believe). Could a person just move the single draw-stop a little each direction to mimic the creep then execute the same shot? Makes sense in my mind.
> 
> -Grant


It's possible, though that still wouldn't fix any asymmetry that occurs once they do come off the stops. So if you creep off the stops on a shot you'll still have the original problem if you're out of creep-tune to start with. The timing adjustment makes the bow shoot right anywhere in the valley and into the wall, so it's probably the best treatment....

LS


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## ron w

creep tuning s about the limb's deflection vs. cam timing. so as unclejane predicts. moving the stops to coincide with the cams being out of time, will just make the cams stop at their out of time positions. as soom as the cams come of the stop, they will continue on their out of time relationship.


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## SonnyThomas

grantmac said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> I'm going to start tuning my first set of Martin binary cams (Cat 1.5 I believe). Could a person just move the single draw-stop a little each direction to mimic the creep then execute the same shot? Makes sense in my mind.
> 
> -Grant


Read - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2426876&p=1072464440#post1072464440


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## grantmac

You guys aren't reading what I wrote, but that is okay.

-Grant


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## unclejane

grantmac said:


> You guys aren't reading what I wrote, but that is okay.
> 
> -Grant


Apologies - what part did I miss? I was addressing the draw stop question (tho sounds like Sonny has had a positive result with the idea), but if I glossed something let me know.

LS


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## tmorelli

grantmac said:


> You guys aren't reading what I wrote, but that is okay.
> 
> -Grant


Actually, I think they did. Ron pretty much called out my thoughts on it too.


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## Padgett

Hey, I went in and shot for a couple hours today and I remembered to try and cree tune by hand and I put up a horizontal piece of black tape and I shot 6 shots two were normal two were pulling into the wall hard and two were creeped forward into the valley and I smoked the black tape each time.

I started out pretty weak for the first 20 or so shots and I just didn't feel right but then I settled in and shot really strong and I felt like I was shooting good enough to creep tune. I have shot that bow for over four years and I have a feel for how it needs to be setup so I had the top can hitting just before the bottom but is was just a guess. It was tricky to creep forward with my cams in the 65% let off setting because the valley was very short but I pulled it off.


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## Padgett

I am going to do the tiller thing soon, I am sitting on 80% inside out x's and who knows if it could send me closer to 90%.


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## SonnyThomas

grantmac said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> I'm going to start tuning my first set of Martin binary cams (Cat 1.5 I believe). Could a person just move the single draw-stop a little each direction to mimic the creep then execute the same shot? Makes sense in my mind.
> 
> -Grant





grantmac said:


> You guys aren't reading what I wrote, but that is okay.
> 
> -Grant


Well, it isn't a little each direction, if that's what you mean. You move it towards the limb which shortens draw length tiny fractions of a inch so you're able to stay on the wall. My experience was with virtually all Martins of 2008 thru 2011. I setup and worked on a few Martin and Rytera staff shooter's bows. They had no complaints....Maybe because the shop didn't charge them  

Martin's manuals are available as a down loads.

1- Martin's use to have a pad that went on the limb for the draw stop. The draw stop has a rubber cap that covers the post of the draw stop. Pad and rubber cap equal some give. I forwent the pad for the limb.
2- By the instructions you are back off the draw stop 1/32" for the rubber cap. I didn't.

Longer ata Martins, 2010 and 2011 Shadowcats, 41 1/2" and 41 1/4" respectively. Limb stop bows or what I called positive draw stops. Tied in cams that they are the longer ata bows did have a tiny bit of give. My Pearsons, TX4, MarXman and MX2 have 2 draw positive draw stops and I can tell you their walls are rock, rock hard compared the 2010 and 2011 Shadowcats and probably the 2012 Scepter V.


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## unclejane

Ah I see what Grant meant now... ok, makes sense I suppose, tho for me it's just easier to do various amounts of pull and do it that way. My Hoyt doesn't have draw stops, tho, so you have to do it with just pulling anyway.

LS


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## ron w

yea, me too grant.....i'll admit I thought you meant moving the stops to compensate for slightly out of time cams. 
that is good question you pose, I really don't know if that would work with a binary system, because setting one stop asymmetrically and then pulling hard enough to get both stops on the limbs, or string, would just result in the limbs being bent into submission enough to change the tiller of the bow. when this would happen, as soon as the shot breaks, the first thing that happens, would be that the limbs return to the un-forced condition of tiller, and the cams would them rotate in their existing condition of timing. I assume, there would be a jump in nock travel initially throwing the arrow up or down, but that would actually be a somewhat "false indicator" of timing condition.


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## SonnyThomas

Getting a little confusing here. Cable stops give. Limb stops don't give. So you're either on the wall or off the wall. Binary cams like Martins are tied together. Advancing the top cam isn't liked. Timed, they are timed. The draw stop (just one) set back you have the cam modules "bending the cables like cable stop bows, which is not suggested because of a possible lock up. Cams even and the draw stop set gives 80% let off. Moving the draw stop towards the limb not only shortens draw length by tiny bits, but also decreases let off, as low as 65% and more if you so desired. 

And you if you wish, timed and draw stop set, you can actually move the bottom cam module to a longer setting, not touch the cable, and shoot just as well......


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## grantmac

I just got in off work late last night and finally got a chance to read this morning.

The system I'm talking about is on a Shadowcat and there is only ONE draw stop on the bottom cam. You aren't ever on the cable "stops" since as Sonny mentioned that has the risk of lock-up and it just isn't how the system is designed.

My question was whether a person could move the draw stop (or I suppose the modules?) to a different position to effect where the wall is in the cam rotation. Much in the same way that pulling harder or softer into the wall of a cable stop bow does.

I suppose if a person had a hooter shooter they could remove the stop entirely and just shoot the bow at a range of DLs to creep tune provided they were diligent about not locking it up.

-Grant


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## SonnyThomas

Grant, what I've been saying, if you move the draw stop you move the wall. The draw stops the cam's rotation. Depending on draw length you could move the draw stop and not even reach let off of the cams.

Nothing really hard about it. Say the bow is sync/timed and the draw stop set and you should be right at 80% let off. From this point on you don't need any tools except for a Allen wrench and a pencil. Remove the rubber cap and draw a pencil line around the draw stop peg as close as you can. The line will be about 1/32" thick. Loosen the draw stop, moving toward the limb, and cover up the line and tighten the draw stop. Replace cover and try. Not enough repeat steps and try again. Don't like what's going, you marked the draw stop to start with, just move it back....


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## ron w

yup, when you move the stops , you change the wall and create a new set of conditions, with a new need for creep tuning. the idea is to creep tune in the condition that you set the bow up for your shooting and not in a condition that is not what you'd shoot it in.


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