# The Ultimate Hunting Bow?



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Oooooo....I can't wait!

Ray :shade:


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## weekender21 (Jan 27, 2012)

The one you can shoot the best...


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Cool.......can't wait to see it....


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Another way to gain mechanical advantage is to put wheels on it............kidding, will be interested in seeing what you come up with.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Good thinking, can't wait to see the result. That's the fun part of design, to hold the finished thing in your hand.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

sounds cool. cant wait to see pictures


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Interesting... one question I have about them bows, is does the length of the limbs of the helper matter?

Great project... :thumbs_up


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

any pics


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

I agree. some pics would be nice as a build along when you get to that point. cant wait to see it


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

I've been intrigued with the Penobscot design since I first saw it. Putting it together with a hybrid, laminated longbow design sounds like a fascinating idea. Interested to hear how it goes. +1 for pics!


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## rsb_924 (Mar 11, 2006)

the Penobscot design. OK it might sound stupid and i have seen them around and heard of them but realy not payed much attention to them untill i seen one man shooting it a the range.
my question is what is the main purpose off the two, twogether? sorry trying to understand.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I found this..but seeing what Keegan comes up with will be really neat..

http://www.woodlandarchery.com/prod12.htm

I say go for it..you could have the next greatest thing on the market

Mac


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks guys, I should have pictures of the form fo the secondary bow tomorrow for you all to see what I'll be trying. I began laying it out last night and found that I will be going with the 4" reflex on the back bow, as 5" would put way too much stress on the lams during glue up. Today I'm doing the last of the finish work on some bow orders though, so no pcitures yet.

Rattus, the secondary bow averaged about half the length of the primary bow. The shorter it is, the less inertia, meaning the higher dry fire speed. If the secondary bow has a slower dry fire speed then it won't add to the recoil of the primary bow. I'm sure it also effects cable angles, but I'm unsure yet of how so.

BOHO, if the protoype works, I'll definately do a full build along for another. I'll be sharing pictures for everyone on here, but not with the intensity of a build along. 

RSB, the main goal of the double bow over a regular bow would be in the potential increase in efficiency (the outer limbs weigh as much as a 25# bow, but have the draw and recover rate of a 50# or 60# bow, meaning a faster arrow) but more importantly the potential for tuning and adjusting draw weight. By tightenning the cables by twisting, you should be able to force the bow to store more energy or untwist to store less, meaning you have one bow that can draw anywhere from 40# to 50#, and if I'm luck anywhere from 40# to 60#, hypothetically, and even as low as 25# if you remove the cables from the secondary bow (as the primary bow would still be a fully functional longbow. 

MAC, I don't know about the next big thing, but if it works I'd like to see other builders take advatange of it too. It would help a lot of new hunters pick a bow. They should look neat too


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Thanks guys, I should have pictures of the form fo the secondary bow tomorrow for you all to see what I'll be trying. I began laying it out last night and found that I will be going with the 4" reflex on the back bow, as 5" would put way too much stress on the lams during glue up. Today I'm doing the last of the finish work on some bow orders though, so no pcitures yet.
> 
> Rattus, the secondary bow averaged about half the length of the primary bow. The shorter it is, the less inertia, meaning the higher dry fire speed. If the secondary bow has a slower dry fire speed then it won't add to the recoil of the primary bow. I'm sure it also effects cable angles, but I'm unsure yet of how so.
> 
> ...


Interesting... Thanks. Where could one find information on this... or is this a do as you do... :grin: and build it yourself... :grin:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Interesting idea, I haven't seen a bow like that before. 

I say take it one step further. Maybe you could incorporate some kind of a pulley system, although it might require an elaborate rigging system of some sort. If you could figure out a way to mount the pulleys so they traveled in an eccentric path, not only would you could have an adjustable draw weight you might even achieve a mechanical advantage once you reached full draw...:dontknow: :boink:


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## rsb_924 (Mar 11, 2006)

kegan said:


> Thanks guys, I should have pictures of the form fo the secondary bow tomorrow for you all to see what I'll be trying. I began laying it out last night and found that I will be going with the 4" reflex on the back bow, as 5" would put way too much stress on the lams during glue up. Today I'm doing the last of the finish work on some bow orders though, so no pcitures yet.
> 
> Rattus, the secondary bow averaged about half the length of the primary bow. The shorter it is, the less inertia, meaning the higher dry fire speed. If the secondary bow has a slower dry fire speed then it won't add to the recoil of the primary bow. I'm sure it also effects cable angles, but I'm unsure yet of how so.
> 
> ...


Kegan 
thanks for shedding light on the subject for me. it is real ineresting and way cool looking. cant wiat to your pic's


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Rattus, if you build one or two out of self bows, it's easy to get the hang of and experiment. I really didn't have any idea when I tied my first one together, other than the back bow was about half the length of the main bow. There are drawings of the original out there, and folks have made them here and there. If you google it you get lots of pictures of all wooden bows. I'm not a fan of the double straight bow design, I feel it is limited and not very effective. Reflexing the back bow, and either recurving or making the primary bow a R/D really helps. Sincelow mass is the goal of the primary bow, I'd say R/D might be better. Not a whole lot on them out there though.

Easykeeper, yeah, but then it wouldn't look as cool 

I should have pictures tomorrow. Today sorta got away from me.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Rattus, if you build one or two out of self bows, it's easy to get the hang of and experiment. I really didn't have any idea when I tied my first one together, other than the back bow was about half the length of the main bow. There are drawings of the original out there, and folks have made them here and there. If you google it you get lots of pictures of all wooden bows. I'm not a fan of the double straight bow design, I feel it is limited and not very effective. Reflexing the back bow, and either recurving or making the primary bow a R/D really helps. Sincelow mass is the goal of the primary bow, I'd say R/D might be better. Not a whole lot on them out there though.
> 
> Easykeeper, yeah, but then it wouldn't look as cool
> 
> I should have pictures tomorrow. Today sorta got away from me.


Interesting ..... I'm anxious to find out more about this... can't wait for your efforts as well.. Aloha... :grin:.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Here are some pictures of the form. I've been getting it done over the past couple days when I got a little free time. So far it's coming along alright, shouldn't have too many issues. Right now I just need to finish laying out the patter for the small bow's riser. I'm hoping to get the primary bow glued up this weekend, maybe even get it roughed out. I should also be able to get the secondary bow glued up too. You can see in the one picture what the basic shape of the finished bows together will be. So far my only two concerns will be:

- will 1/16" overlays on the front and back of the primary bow be enough to prevent damage? 
- will the area under the secondary bow's riser be enough to give a solid glue joint? 

I'm going to adjust my handle shape and rather than more narrow the whole grip section, I'll do a triangular taper from the full limb width to the throat. This should give some more gluing surface and hopefully be enough. I will be looking into heavy duty wood screws as a back up though.

Rattus, the unfortunate part is that these aren't very popular, so not a lot is known about how the work. For selfbows it's really easy to mess up the angles, and so get no boost in performance (using two straight bows without reflex in either one would be a good example) and so not everyone who builds one gets the most out of it. I'm not entirely certain why we haven't seen folks trying them with more modern materials, perhaps because of the big compound-similiarities driving folks away. The truth is though, it really would be a nice design to have out there for folks, if we can figure out how to get the most draw weight range. One of these, built out of domestic woods, would only have to cost about $400. A reasonable cost for a hunting bow that can be used to learn on (for the whole family) and then take hunting.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Alright, so I got the main bow tillered and the two bows bolted together. Tonight I'm hoping to get the small bow's cables twisted up and hopefully get the first test of the two bows together- pictures coming very soon.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Here is a pic of a 62" LH White Wolf "Penobscot."












> New from white Wolf custom bows I am pleased to offer. The Wind Warrior Max P. One of the most versatile trad bows you will probably ever run across. *This bow has the versatility to move from a 51 pound bow to a 68 pound bow. And many poundage in between. *
> 
> *It has the ability for extreme tillering in whatever configuration you would prefer to match your shooting style.* It lets you go out for a day of practice keep the poundage low so you can shoot many arrows at your best and then off to the woods and up the poundage for some amazing takedown power with maximum penetration. Without the problems that comes from shifting from bow to bow. The primary bow is a wind warrior, which is a great bow in itself and then with the extra added features of the pony bows to give you all the adjustment and versatility that you will ever need. This one features full camouflage limbs that are fabric under clear glass. It is a left handed bow has all the same features as the original wind warrior with the extra added feature of the pony bows. This bow is somewhat of a new twist on the original Penobscot Indian bow.
> 
> ...


*LINK:* http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/1whitewolfcustombows/the-Other/Categories


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

So how is the weight adjusted? Changing length of the 'cables'?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _So how is the weight adjusted? Changing length of the 'cables'?_


As I understand; by twisting the front strings.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

The shorter the strings that link the forward-facing bow to the primary limbs, the more preload. This increases draw weight. String shortening would be accomplished by twisting the cables. I would suppose that it would be vital to have as close to the same preload on both auxiliary limbs as possible.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks for the post WindWalker! Man that thing is a beauty, isn't it?

Here are some photos of mine, got it strung up and testing the draw weight. I haven't yet cut in the sight window or shelf yet, as I just wanted to test the draw range first. So far here are the numbers:

Primary bow (alone): 26# at 28"
With cables full length: ~36# at 28"
Cables tight (max preload): ~48# at 28".

I ran into an issue. In the picture of the tip you can see the string of the main bow now lies against the limb for a few inches (making it a recurve, rather than a hybrid). The problem arrises when I tighten the cables further. The recurves become very pronounced, and unstable. At one point I drew the bow and the middle of the top limb bulged forward... not good. Howevver! I do no think that the next attempt will be better. I'll be trying a 35# 64" main bow. The draw range should allow it to go from 35# to 55#, which would make it perfect for beginners looking to start hunting, or guys who want to shoot with their wives. The shorter, stiffer main bow should also resist twisting or otherwise unwanted problems from the stress of the secondary bow. 

I have some projects I need to get done before I can glue up the next Penobscot main bow to try my theories, but I will shape the riser and put this one through a chrono. I have a 50# at 29" regular Omega that shoots my 455 gr. arrows at 191 fps. I'm eager to see how this bow compares.


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## rsb_924 (Mar 11, 2006)

kegan said:


> Thanks for the post WindWalker! Man that thing is a beauty, isn't it?
> 
> Here are some photos of mine, got it strung up and testing the draw weight. I haven't yet cut in the sight window or shelf yet, as I just wanted to test the draw range first. So far here are the numbers:
> 
> ...


is this one for sale?
or your next one or the one after that....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I know your all about the hybrids. But I think this just screams to be a static recurve with the secondary bow's carble attached just before the curve.
Or alternately you could attach the cable on your hybrid just a little lower on the limb to get some stability, worth a try anyways.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Thanks for the post WindWalker! Man that thing is a beauty, isn't it?


I agree! :thumbs_up



kegan said:


> Here are some photos of mine, got it strung up and testing the draw weight.


AWESOME! Looking cool! :thumbs_up



kegan said:


> I ran into an issue. In the picture of the tip you can see the string of the main bow now lies against the limb for a few inches (making it a recurve, rather than a hybrid). The problem arrises when I tighten the cables further. The recurves become very pronounced, and unstable. At one point I drew the bow and the middle of the top limb bulged forward... not good.


Looks like you're learning alot about these bows and how they need to be constructed. I love how you're sharing this expereince here with us! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Well I shaped the grip and put it through the chrono, unfortunately I wasn't able to get speeds any higher than a regular Omega (at 45# it shot my 455 gr arrows 187 with my 29" draw). Also, there definately seemed to be more vibration. I think the 66" main bow, though stable, is doing more harm than good, especially with the now extra-heavy tips. I'm just concerned about the dry-fire speed of the secondary bow. I'm thinking I'll try to take a video to watch the bow react, see if I can see anything. I might also be limiting the amount of energy the secondary bow can store with such short limbs compared to its stiff riser section?

RSB, if I get the kinks worked out to where it's a bow I wouldn't mind taking to the 3D range or hunting myself, then I'll think about selling them. Until then this is just a project to see what we can do mixing an old design with new materials 

Grant, I had built an all wood Penobscot with the cables attached about 5" down the limbs from the nocks. It shot alright, but it didn't seem very adjustable, and after about fifty shots the overlays gave out and it split down into the limb. I've seen others do it, but that instance scared the daylights out of me. As for a recurve, I've heard that staitc recurve Penobscots produce some of the highest arrow speeds, with hybrids a close second. I just use the one bow form for my laminated bows and am too lazy to build another  For anyone else wanting to give this bow style a try though, you're dead-on, Penobscots and static recurves are a great mix!

Ray, thanks! Oh yeah, learning a lot from it! I'm waiting on another glass order before I can build a new primary bow, which is one of the next big steps towards ironing out how these things tick. So far it's pretty stable, and easy to tune the tiller for shooting style. I fear the extra light main bow and too long limbs are hindering how user friendly this design can be. If I can reduce some hand shock and get it to where it can draw from 35# to 55#, I'll at least consider it a success as a great design for beginners. 

As for sharing, I only think it's right. More folks working on it, more folks who can help work out the kinks and details. Besides, this design defiantely seems to have the potential as a fantastic bow for new bow hunters and archers, and that's a good thing


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Try some back-nocks instead of cutting into the laminations. I think that you won't ever get the tip-speed up if you've got the weight of the cable and extra nocks out there.
Or you could go really unconventional: do it with an exaggerated Holemgaard profile and use the abrupt limb-taper to hold the cables. I've often thought of playing with a self-bow configured like that.
You will probably have to play with adding a wedge to the tips either way.

-Grant


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Grant, excellent suggestions. I can't make the outer limbs any more narrow for the shoulder idea, due to instability, but simply gluing on back nocks is a thought. I'm hoping experimenting with shorter main bows might put me in the first direction too. I know my 62" and 64" uncurl more, and hopefully that will get me where I'm headed. 

My first goal is to get lower vibration and the draw range. Next will be a faster arrow over my regular Omegas


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## weekender21 (Jan 27, 2012)

Cool looking bow!


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## rsb_924 (Mar 11, 2006)

kegan said:


> RSB, if I get the kinks worked out to where it's a bow I wouldn't mind taking to the 3D range or hunting myself, then I'll think about selling them. Until then this is just a project to see what we can do mixing an old design with new materials



i tryed


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks Weekender! And RSB, don't worry, if it gets worked out I'll let you know


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