# NFAA Bowhunter



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Any body going to shoot the NFAA Bowhunter division in Mechanicsburg ? or am I the last of the Mohicans ? where have all the Bowhunters gone ?

Gary


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Gary,
We had a pretty good showing at the Oregon Safari... I shot my recurve in the Bowhunter team event. I am setting up a couple of bows for bowhunter, unfortunately I can not make it to the Nat's this year. My sponsor (wife) says I have spent my allowance for the year... sucks being retired.... LOL Good luck to you in PA.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Gary,
> We had a pretty good showing at the Oregon Safari... I shot my recurve in the Bowhunter team event. I am setting up a couple of bows for bowhunter, unfortunately I can not make it to the Nat's this year. My sponsor (wife) says I have spent my allowance for the year... sucks being retired.... LOL Good luck to you in PA.


Gary,

What Ren didn't mention was his team won.
It was a good weekend even with the little bit of rain.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Boyd said:


> Gary,
> 
> What Ren didn't mention was his team won.
> It was a good weekend even with the little bit of rain.


Boyd,
I want to thank you and all the others for the hospitality last weekend. Your club did a great job having the course so nice also. Look forward to shooting with you and everyone in the future. 
Gary,
What Boyd fails to say is that my partner had a very sore back carrying me all weekend!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Any body going to shoot the NFAA Bowhunter division in Mechanicsburg ? or am I the last of the Mohicans ? where have all the Bowhunters gone ?
> 
> Gary


You're too easy going.What that division needs is someone who can stir things up.LOL. Wonder who that could be?


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## smcginnis (Dec 11, 2010)

Gary, I would love to go, but just isnt going to happen this year. maybe next year.

Boyd, I am going to make your safari shoot next year for sure. had a great time last year.

Steve


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## heavyfire99 (Feb 11, 2003)

i havent shot in nfaa in a few years because the last state shoot i went to, there was 35 shooters, it was pretty sad. maybe ill try again next year.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I think the Nats. are going to be in Darrington Or. next year. I am not going to be shooting Vegas so I will try and make it to the nats next year.
Best of luck Gary, kick some butt.
Don.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Don,
They will be inDarrington, Wa next year. Come on up and enjoy Darrington!


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

rsarns said:


> Don,
> They will be inDarrington, Wa next year. Come on up and enjoy Darrington!


 Oops, my bad. 
Darrington Wa. is what I ment. The range is about an hour from where my brother-in-law grew up.
Don.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Cool, I live about an hour or so away.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Darrington has such a cool ranges for nationals. Circumstances were such that I could not go in 2010. I would love to get back up there and shoot. Something about those forest that are just wonderful to shoot a bow in.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I get to shoot Darrington 1-2 times a year, they hosted our State Field this year, and they normally host 2-3 more shoots (local) every year. Most of us (WSAA Mambers) will start doing working parties to get it ready for the Nat's next year. I shot it in 2010 and it was a blast, if you haven't had a chance to shoot Darrington, and enjoy the Pacific NW, come on out!


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## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

I had the pleasure of shooting Darrington in 1996 for the World championships , awesome courses and little town.
I remember Bobcat and Coyotoe courses the most , some great shots up there.

Would love to make it back there someday. you lucky buggers over there !!!


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

I shot Darrington in 1988, and then in 2003. What a great place to shoot.


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## OBE (Dec 4, 2009)

Day 1 - Nationals

Gary McCain - SMTRAD - FIRST PLACE....leading by 76 points

*Keep up the great shooting....*

http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/u...725-2012 Outdoor Nationals - Day 1Results.pdf


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

obe said:


> day 1 - nationals
> 
> gary mccain - smtrad - first place....leading by 76 points
> 
> ...


WOOHOO!:thumbs_up


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

WOW! What a score!!! 483 

Gary is rockin out of the gate!!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

They have him listed in SMBH also.... so is he shooting 2 bows?  483 is an amazing score for Trad, considering 408 (Gerald Hickman) was the Senior field record, and 476 is the adult record (Alan Eagleton). Of course the Senior was a bit higher when they did aggregate (2 day combined) Tom Daley with 873. So Gary knocked the crap out of the records... good shooting Gary!


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

I wonder if he is listed in the right class? I talked with him on the phone and he was at the IBO trad championship before going to Nationals. Lucky man getting to shoot all those arrows.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Would have loved to have been at both this year, but after Louisville (Indoor Nat's), Redding, all 6 State shoots and the Oregon Safari, well my sponsor (the wife) pulled in the reigns a bit. I am going to all those and Vegas this next year, oh and Grass Valley also. Since the FIeld Nat's will be in my backyard I will be there also... ))


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rhys A said:


> I had the pleasure of shooting Darrington in 1996 for the World championships , awesome courses and little town.
> I remember Bobcat and Coyotoe courses the most , some great shots up there.
> 
> Would love to make it back there someday. you lucky buggers over there !!!


Rhys, If you get a chance, come to the redding shoot next year, it should be a reunion for a lot of oldtime nonsight shooters. I know you live down under so I will donate 20$ to start a travel fund for you. If there is enough support to get you there, my money is in. Now it is up to the other redding players and other nonsight shooters to help make a dream come true for rhys,


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## OBE (Dec 4, 2009)

dragonheart said:


> WOW! What a score!!! 483
> 
> Gary is rockin out of the gate!!


Sandy also had a great day, with a score of 438 AFTRAD.......*good shooting to you as well *


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Boy have I got you guys fooled NFAA has me in the wrong class I shot SMBH 483 with two arrows in the wrong target loosing 9 points ho hum. 486 Field today. Bobby Graham from Oaklahoma shot 412 FIeld SR Trad a new record. You guys really thought I shot SRTrad you should have heard the SRTRAD guys until they found I was shooting my compound. My 15 min. Of fame. My wife Sandy McCain set a new record in the Female Trad Recurve div Hunter round with a 438 that's a Wow! (I taught her how) . Buy the way did I tell you guys she gap shoots ?

Gary


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## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

Nice shooting by you both ! keep it up for the rest of the shoot .


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

GAry,
Tell Bobby I said congrats! He is a great man and friend.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Great shooting to both of you! I bet those Sr. trad guys were freaking out. I can hear them, "A 483!!!!" LOL!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Boy have I got you guys fooled NFAA has me in the wrong class I shot SMBH 483 with two arrows in the wrong target loosing 9 points ho hum. 486 Field today. Bobby Graham from Oaklahoma shot 412 FIeld SR Trad a new record. You guys really thought I shot SRTrad you should have heard the SRTRAD guys until they found I was shooting my compound. My 15 min. Of fame. My wife Sandy McCain set a new record in the Female Trad Recurve div Hunter round with a 438 that's a Wow! (I taught her how) . Buy the way did I tell you guys she gap shoots ?
> 
> Gary


412 is the record for senior trad? Hmmmmmm


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Oh no, looks like the wheels are turning. LOL


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Gary - I am jealous should have just stowed away in your trailer down in Tennessee.

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Boy have I got you guys fooled NFAA has me in the wrong class I shot SMBH 483 with two arrows in the wrong target loosing 9 points ho hum. 486 Field today. Bobby Graham from Oaklahoma shot 412 FIeld SR Trad a new record. You guys really thought I shot SRTrad you should have heard the SRTRAD guys until they found I was shooting my compound. My 15 min. Of fame. My wife Sandy McCain set a new record in the Female Trad Recurve div Hunter round with a 438 that's a Wow! (I taught her how) . Buy the way did I tell you guys she gap shoots ?
> 
> Gary


As I have told you many times, those cam and one halfs only have about a 495-497 in them, max so go back to basics and get wheels with a valley in them. You are the most stubborn archer I know, of course thats probably why you shoot the bowhunter and trad classes, that is one of our traits.LOL. I hope Sandy doesn't have a head count on bucks at your house.:tongue:


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Gary,
Great shooting, congrats. Tell Sandy I send a congrats to her too.
Don.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> As I have told you many times, those cam and one halfs only have about a 495-497 in them, max


Question;
Baised on what information?

Gary,

Go bust out a 500 today. I know you got it in you to do it.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boyd said:


> Question;
> Baised on what information?
> 
> Gary,
> ...


Gary, I can overnight an old wheel bow to you if things get tight there. Otherwise, keep cracking those cam and one half scores.:wink: I think you can shoot 500 today, it is the animal round isn't it?


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

Good shootin Gary, tell Sandy to keep puttin them in the middle. Lookin forward to next year in Darrington sounds like it should be a good turnout of bowhunters. Will be my first nationals in a long long time tho. Its like riding a bike tho and Im allways in it to win it.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Itbeso sandy has photos of the Bucks at the house. And has them named. She also set a new female trad recurve animal record today with a 524 wow. And you thought the Trad guys were worried about me. Three days of shooting three new records did I mention I taught her? She is also one of the reasons I brought my compound really hate getting whipped by my wife.
Gary


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

That is some great shooting there! She is tearing it up!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Men and women shoot the same stakes??

Not that it matters a record is a record - great shooting

Matt


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## OBE (Dec 4, 2009)

2413gary said:


> She also set a new female trad recurve animal record today with a 524 wow. And you thought the Trad guys were worried about me. Three days of shooting three new records did I mention I taught her? Gary


Tell Sandy congratulations from all of us and don't slow down. Now its your turn. Shoot em up.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Matt,
Yes men and women shoot the same stakes... makes her scores that much more impressive.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sweet - can't wait to to tell Bug she will be stoked

Matt


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

2413gary said:


> Itbeso sandy has photos of the Bucks at the house. And has them named. She also set a new female trad recurve animal record today with a 524 wow. And you thought the Trad guys were worried about me. Three days of shooting three new records did I mention I taught her? She is also one of the reasons I brought my compound really hate getting whipped by my wife.
> Gary


Congrats to an awesome pair of archers. Sandy, you ROCKED IT! Good On Ya!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boyd said:


> Congrats to an awesome pair of archers. Sandy, you ROCKED IT! Good On Ya!


Actually, It's awesome and one half, in keeping with his cam selection.:wink:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This is getting boring Sandy set another record 438 wasn't high enough for her Hunter round she posted a 445 today NFAA hunter female trad recurve.
Gary


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Gary,
She is setting the bar pretty high! Congrats to her! So how did the cam and half do today?


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Awesome shooting! She is really put em' in there with the curve! Wow!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

rsarns said:


> Gary,
> She is setting the bar pretty high! Congrats to her! So how did the cam and half do today?


496 came close looks like itbeso will be mailing me his bow. Maby tomorrow


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Great shooting guys - Sandy is Smoken the male trad shooters


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Think I am going Bowhunter class next year. I love stringwalking but that gap thing has my attention so might give it a try. MCU is an easy jump as the IBO yardages only go out to 30 for that class, so I can shoot both with out any changes. Might go Trad all the way, gosh, its so hard to decide when you love to shoot everything!! Anyone has a suggestion let me know. Thanks.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Bowhunter is a fun class to shoot. Think you are going to shoot wheels or cams? If you get your point on about 40 yrds you will be good for both. Trad is more difficult. Need the strength and time to shoot alot. What bow you thinking about for Bowhunter class?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> 496 came close looks like itbeso will be mailing me his bow. Maby tomorrow


Congratulations, you came within one point of maxing out those cam and one halfs(see a previous post re; max scores for cam and one half.lol). Sandy, you rock!!!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

pilotmill said:


> Think I am going Bowhunter class next year. I love stringwalking but that gap thing has my attention so might give it a try. MCU is an easy jump as the IBO yardages only go out to 30 for that class, so I can shoot both with out any changes. Might go Trad all the way, gosh, its so hard to decide when you love to shoot everything!! Anyone has a suggestion let me know. Thanks.


Gar, shoot both and have a good time doing it.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Gar, shoot both and have a good time doing it.


That will work too.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Nobody else really excited about Longbow next year?

I just sold my wheels to play it.

-Grant


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I love NFAA Trad, have a legal longbow coming also... but I tried out the Bowhunter and well maybe because it was new, but had a blast, and well I did pretty well also. My quandry is that I will shoot the NFAA Indoor in Louisville, Vegas, Redding, Grass Valley and of course the NFAA Oudoors in Darrington... what will I shoot? LOL


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns said:


> I love NFAA Trad, have a legal longbow coming also... but I tried out the Bowhunter and well maybe because it was new, but had a blast, and well I did pretty well also. My quandry is that I will shoot the NFAA Indoor in Louisville, Vegas, Redding, Grass Valley and of course the NFAA Oudoors in Darrington... what will I shoot? LOL


My bet is you will shoot......................................................................................................................................................................non-sight!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

LOL... Yep ITBESO I can guarantee that.


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## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

Great shooting today Gary , well done !!! I agree with Boyd , cam and half go well and I personally shot a 510 field with them on an ultra elite a few years back . Tune them well and you get a good balance of speed and incredible accuracy ! Have a monster day tomorrow !!!! 5 ... Something !!! i can feel it .


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rhys A said:


> Great shooting today Gary , well done !!! I agree with Boyd , cam and half go well and I personally shot a 510 field with them on an ultra elite a few years back . Tune them well and you get a good balance of speed and incredible accuracy ! Have a monster day tomorrow !!!! 5 ... Something !!! i can feel it .


Aw come on guys, just when I have gotten Gary on the edge of coming back from the dark side, you undermine all my efforts.lol. I am going to Garys house next weekend and we are going to build him a real finger bow with wheels. I am not going to argue the merits of wheels vs cams except to say the following. Someone shooting cams can put up a good score now and then. The problem with cams and fingers is that you have to do everything perfect with cams because they are not forgiving of our mistakes. That is why so many of you swear by them, they do well in the backyard when there is no pressure on you but, when you get under pressure and make little mistakes or don't get the perfect release the cams will let you down. A wheel with a good long valley , on the other hand, is very forgiving. You can creep 3/8 inch or overdraw 3/8 inch and the arrow will still impact in the same location. Most bowhunter and barebow class shooters have gotten caught up in the speed thing whereas accuracy should be your primary focus. When I try to get some of these points across, I get called out by alot of people on these threads. Rhys, I shot a 509 bowhunter class score a few years ago with a wheel bow going 215 feet per second. It was the lowest score I shot for the whole year including state, sectional and national tournaments. Does that necessarily make me more qualified than anyone else to make comparisons?No, but I feel I have a good handle on what constitutes a good and forgiving finger setup bow.


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Wow, ok that has the water as muddy as all for next year. Guess I really have to think about longbow too, I got a really nice 21Century that will qualify for that work. Shooting an Oasis plus for indoor barebow NFAA, and MCU IBO. Practice and strength are not a problem, changing bows for me is, I really need to settle down a bit on equipment, lol. If I were to go Bowhunter what bow do you guys think, I am looking at an Aspen and possibly a Protec. Gar.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Guys - I have never shot fingers compound other than the speed, which itbeso says isn't a big deal, what are the benefits of a compound over a recuve I don't get a chance to shoot much NFAA field and when I do it will be barebow so I am interested in understanding the competition. 

Gary and Sandy - GREAT shooting both of you.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

You can hold and aim till the cows come home and when you collapse it still hits the target a big big deal
Gary


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Gary - started a new thread for this can't figure out how to delete my question sorry about the hijack - how did you guys shoot today??

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Well Sandy set another record 433 field it's over going home wish you guys were here we had a blast
Gary


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Congrats Gary and Sandy.... awesome shooting!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Congrats drive safe

matt


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## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

itbeso said:


> . A wheel with a good long valley , on the other hand, is very forgiving. You can creep 3/8 inch or overdraw 3/8 inch and the arrow will still impact in the same location.


I don't see how this is possible when you aim with the point of your arrow in the GAP method described by yourself and Gary ? If you creep 3/8 inch you would change the relationship of the point to your eye and the position on the target face , therefore lower your arm to compensate .. therefore empact low and visa versa if you were to overdraw the arrow ? This is the exact reason why I feel shooting a wall is better than shooting a valley , so you consistantly draw the same.



itbeso said:


> . Rhys, I shot a 509 bowhunter class score a few years ago with a wheel bow going 215 feet per second. It was the lowest score I shot for the whole year including state, sectional and national tournaments. Does that necessarily make me more qualified than anyone else to make comparisons?No, but I feel I have a good handle on what constitutes a good and forgiving finger setup bow.


Wow , that is some awesome shooting if that was your lowest score for the whole year ? I am just amazed I, and many on this forum don't know who you are ?? Real name that is. 

I follow that scores in America all the time and constantly look at nationals and state sectional results and have never seen scores like this posted anyway except North west from Richard Bromely and Boyd. I can tell you who has won the NFAA outdoors in the Bowhunter division since the early 80's with scores like that and no name pops out that I don't know . 

I am not discrediting your ability as you have done to myself in the past.... as I don't know you ! however it would be nice for the people of this forum to know who you are ? since you seem to insist on more than one occasion that you know better than anyone else ???


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## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

Congrats to Gary and Sandy on some fine shooting at the Nationals !!! Well done .


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

I think that Sandy has become "one with the bow" with that Hoyt recurve. That is some shooting.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

RHys A, I have been trying to figure out who ITBESO is for quite awhile, maybe he will step out from behind the cloak he insists on keeping. BEBE or Gary might be able to shed some light on this, but I figure I will be honored one day to get beat by him, heck who knows might already have happened?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rhys A said:


> I don't see how this is possible when you aim with the point of your arrow in the GAP method described by yourself and Gary ? If you creep 3/8 inch you would change the relationship of the point to your eye and the position on the target face , therefore lower your arm to compensate .. therefore empact low and visa versa if you were to overdraw the arrow ? This is the exact reason why I feel shooting a wall is better than shooting a valley , so you consistantly draw th
> 
> Wow , that is some awesome shooting if that was your lowest score for the whole year ? I am just amazed I, and many on this forum don't know who you are ?? Real name that is.
> 
> ...


Rhys,I have to disagree with your Reasoning on creeping. Anyone who saw me shoot bowhunter knows I had a constant creep until the arrow was launched. I also have to take umbrage with your assertion that I tried to discredit your ability. You are a world champion and I respect that but Unclegus and I did have some fun with you on one thread where you seemed to be taking things and yourself a little too seriously.Again, one of the problems with the internet where you can't see the twinkle in the eye of the sender.I am also going to dispute your statement that I insist I know more or better than anyone else. I AM passionate about teaching archers the gap system as I believe it is one of the most, if not the most accurate aiming system for nonsight shooters. The one thing that took me a while to comprehend was that there are archers on here who are not interested in improving their shooting and while I don't understand that line of thinking I have tried to tone down my intensity when they respond. My posts on here were, in most instances, meant to be informative. I must admit that passion does, sometimes, trump courtesy and civility.I will try to do better on my part in the future. Ben Rogers


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

LOL.. I knew it! The Buffet gave it away.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> A wheel with a good long valley , on the other hand, is very forgiving. You can creep 3/8 inch or overdraw 3/8 inch and the arrow will still impact in the same location.


I’m going to have to call “BS” on this. I *Have* spent hours in Spot-Hoggs shop using the Hooter Shooter to tune my bow as well as my arrows. With the Hooter Shooter you can draw your bow to the *EXACT* same spot. This aspect of the Hooter Shooter is of the up-most importance because it takes the human element out of the equation.

Prior to the 2006 IFAA World Championships I spent two whole days tuning the arrows I was going to take to Australia. If an arrow *DID NOT* hit the exact same hole in the target, I would turn the knock, or insert another 100 grain point, or refletch, or strip the fletch to check for straightness refletch and start the whole process again. End result was I had 36 arrows that were hitting the same hole. And when I say, exact same hole I mean just that. You could not see any difference is the target between arrows.

I say all this to point out that when (and I tested this with the Hooter Shooter) the bow is under drawn or over drawn, even by just a 1/16 inch, the arrows did not impact at the same location of the target.

*The above process was done with my Hoyt Accu-Tec with #6 E-Wheels*

Nice try itbeso but you are wrong on this one.

To be sure, I’m not putting you down, I’m just putting information out there for all to know that what has been tested and proven over years & years of shooting and testing, even by the experts at Spot-Hogg, proves beyond the shadow of a doubt when your bow is over or under drawn, expect less then the desired results.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boyd said:


> I’m going to have to call “BS” on this. I *Have* spent hours in Spot-Hoggs shop using the Hooter Shooter to tune my bow as well as my arrows. With the Hooter Shooter you can draw your bow to the *EXACT* same spot. This aspect of the Hooter Shooter is of the up-most importance because it takes the human element out of the equation.
> 
> Prior to the 2006 IFAA World Championships I spent two whole days tuning the arrows I was going to take to Australia. If an arrow *DID NOT* hit the exact same hole in the target, I would turn the knock, or insert another 100 grain point, or refletch, or strip the fletch to check for straightness refletch and start the whole process again. End result was I had 36 arrows that were hitting the same hole. And when I say, exact same hole I mean just that. You could not see any difference is the target between arrows.
> 
> ...


Thank you for making my point Boyd. The E-wheel was a precursor to more radical cams as the cable lobes were slightly elliptical. !/16 inch on a cam made a big difference. Of course the spott-hogg shooting machine can't replicate hand torque. nervous fingers, bad releases and all the other things that can go wrong with a shot. A good finger wheel bow can reduce the error margin in all those things but I will shut up about wheelbows. I will, however be shooting one if, lord willing, I ever get to shoot bowhunter again.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Thank you for making my point Boyd. The E-wheel was a precursor to more radical cams as the cable lobes were slightly elliptical. !/16 inch on a cam made a big difference. Of course the spott-hogg shooting machine can't replicate hand torque. nervous fingers, bad releases and all the other things that can go wrong with a shot. A good finger wheel bow can reduce the error margin in all those things but I will shut up about wheelbows. I will, however be shooting one if, lord willing, I ever get to shoot bowhunter again.


Missed it again Ben. I made my point, not yours. Correct me if I’m wrong (I know you will) but you stated "You can creep 3/8 inch or overdraw 3/8 inch and the arrow will still impact in the same location”.

I never said that the cams that I shoot allowed me to over or under draw my bow and still hit the same location. I was just proving your above statement as false.

Its good to finally know who you are.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

itbeso said:


> I will, however be shooting one if, lord willing, I ever get to shoot bowhunter again.


I would love to see you out there with us again.


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## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Ben Rogers


 Oh well , that has just put a little (not a lot ) of egg on my face . I knew it had to be either yourself or Jim Brown as there have only been a few people I know of that can shoot scores like that. The mystery has been revealed , ZORRO( ITBESO ) unmasked peoples !!! 

And all though my level of respect has been severely increased !! I still don't believe that you can creep that much forward or back and still hit the dot consistantly!

I believe YOU ( Ben Rogers ) could do this as this was *built into your shot routine *and something that *you did subconsciously *and it worked , no doubt. I spend at lot of time teaching barebow archers and this is not something I would promote as a standard practise, that's all I am saying. Boyd has made mention of things in another post and I have to agree with HIM , creeping BAD !! 

What you are saying is that if you had your point on perfect , and you went and cut 3/8 inch off those arrows , they would still hit the dot ? ( _forget about the fact that you would reduce the weight of the arrow ,for this point of opinion _) They would hit high even if you did maintain the exact weight as your arm would need to raise in order to bring the tip back to the same aiming point ?? 



itbeso said:


> I AM passionate about teaching archers the gap system as I believe it is one of the most, if not the most accurate aiming system for nonsight shooters.


 I too am very passionate about teaching archers and helping them improve their accuracy and form, I have tried to understand this GAP method as well as the method that Frank McCubbins uses ( The box system ) however I never really understood it exactly and prefered my method of using the rings on the target face ( btm of paper , 3/4 line at 6 Oclock, Btm of Dot , 3/4 line at 12 Oçlock, top of paper etc) and using my POint of arrow , rest wire , cable slide , riser cut out and shelf as height references . it is hard to explain over the net like you say but it worked for me ? 



itbeso said:


> I did have some fun with you on one thread where you seemed to be taking things and yourself a little too seriously.Again, one of the problems with the internet where you can't see the twinkle in the eye of the sender.


Bingo , if I knew it was someone that I should have respected the opinion off , things would have been different . I do take myself , my archery and my success to date very seriously and that will never change I have worked bloody hard over the years . Your comments have come across very condescending and I take umbrage to that , even your post earlier in this thread about the $20 donation thing , I really wasn't sure if you were taking the piss or not ?? Maybe you were ? maybe you were actually being sincere , but I can tell you I would like nothing more to get to Redding and shoot with yourself, Boyd , Chuck , Gary and the whole lot of the Bowhunter / Barebow guys and gals there that I have not had the pleasure of shooting with yet !! 

Enough said on this stuff , however I still reckon your wrong on the CREEP thing :tongue:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rhys A said:


> Oh well , that has just put a little (not a lot ) of egg on my face . I knew it had to be either yourself or Jim Brown as there have only been a few people I know of that can shoot scores like that. The mystery has been revealed , ZORRO( ITBESO ) unmasked peoples !!!
> 
> And all though my level of respect has been severely increased !! I still don't believe that you can creep that much forward or back and still hit the dot consistantly!
> 
> ...


The 20$ was sincere and still stands. I would like nothing better than to get all of the best nonsight shooters in the world for a reunion at Redding next year. I'm too old to make a difference but I will come and play. I'm not sure how far you go back, but the old wheels used to have about an inch-inch and one half valley in them. Setting them up in the middle of the valley did indeed give you lots of leeway on draw length but there is another possible explanation, It was so long ago and I'm getting a bit senile so maybe I remember it wrong.lol. we'll have to see just how benevolent our compatriots are. Are we going to get Rhys over here or not?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ben - good to see you are out of the closet - funny thing is some to the Trad guys whose chops you have been busting still won't have a clue who you are.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

It would be like old home week if everybody showed up. This is why I started this post I feel like I am alone in the Bowhunter division sometimes. I was there when it started and my heart wants it to be great again. There a few of us that are hanging on. I know with the people who have posted here the sun will shine on us. So get your butts to the range. Your friend and competitor

Gary


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ben - good to see you are out of the closet - funny thing is some to the Trad guys whose chops you have been busting still won't have a clue who you are.
> 
> Matt


Lol. I'm nobody in the trad division but I did get a kick out of sharpbroadhead calling me out and telling me to get some friends and show up at an ibo event. He didn't realize that you beat him, Ty beat him, Sandy won womens Ru, and my good friend, TIm Strickland took home the big Money . I feel if Gary hadn't been pointing for the Nfaa bowhunter Championship and spent a little more time with his recurve, he would probably have beaten him also. Too funny.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Your buddy Tim has ice water for blood - that sucker was a pressure cooker.

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Your buddy Tim has ice water for blood - that sucker was a pressure cooker.
> 
> Matt


Not too many people know but Tim is one of the best all around archers in the world. He has excelled at release shooting, Fingers and sight(Nfaa pro division champion) and has been shooting his stick bow for a while now, obviously pretty well.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I am no way in the same class as Gary, but I do call him a friend. I am going to do everything I can to make it to Redding this next year to see if I can make my mark in the Bowhunter class.
Don.


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

This thread has been crackin me up. I miss when there use to be more bowhunters. I wanted to make it to redding last year but work would not let me. I will be there next year and Vegas and Nationals. Cant wait till Vegas I had allot of fun at that shoot last year. Someone in my family has to pick up the torch I guess it will be me.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

zestycj7 said:


> I am no way in the same class as Gary, but I do call him a friend. I am going to do everything I can to make it to Redding this next year to see if I can make my mark in the Bowhunter class.
> Don.


Don, You are a little bit confused. Gary is like an unemployed schoolteacher----No class!:wink:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

krmccubbins said:


> This thread has been crackin me up. I miss when there use to be more bowhunters. I wanted to make it to redding last year but work would not let me. I will be there next year and Vegas and Nationals. Cant wait till Vegas I had allot of fun at that shoot last year. Someone in my family has to pick up the torch I guess it will be me.


As a t-shirt that Tom Daley used to wear said; Old age and treachery will always beat youth and talent. Bring it Kris. It was nice seeing you and shane at Vegas this year.


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

itbeso said:


> As a t-shirt that Tom Daley used to wear said; Old age and treachery will always beat youth and talent. Bring it Kris. It was nice seeing you and shane at Vegas this year.


That sounds like Tom. It was nice to see you too Ben. That was my favorite thing about Vegas was seeing everyone and getting third:wink:. Vegas was my first big shoot in 18yrs so happy to place in top three. Im in it to win it this year tho. Me and Shane will probly team up for redding will be the first time we have shot as team.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

I just talked to my buddy, Jim Brown. I talked him into giving up the sights and coming back to bowhunter for next year, I think we will have a heck of a reunion if everyone shows up. I am going to try to make it down to florida in december for the nafac tournament. Jim and I are going to discuss what kind of treachery we want to use on all the young guys.lol.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Congrats to Gary and Sandy on their excellent shooting at the nationals. It's been a lot of years (more than I care to admit) since I shot NFAA Bowhunter. It's nice to see some excellent shooters keeping it alive.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Lol. I'm nobody in the trad division but I did get a kick out of sharpbroadhead calling me out and telling me to get some friends and show up at an ibo event. He didn't realize that you beat him, Ty beat him, Sandy won womens Ru, and my good friend, TIm Strickland took home the big Money . I feel if Gary hadn't been pointing for the Nfaa bowhunter Championship and spent a little more time with his recurve, he would probably have beaten him also. Too funny.


I suspect you may be a bit confused. OSB was not at the Traditional World this year. He was there last year and shot REC, not RU.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

your right itbeso is confused on more than just that but give me time and I will straighten him out
Gary


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

2413gary said:


> your right itbeso is confused on more than just that but give me time and I will straighten him out
> Gary


:wink:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I suspect you may be a bit confused. OSB was not at the Traditional World this year. He was there last year and shot REC, not RU.


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## Fingerdog56 (Sep 21, 2009)

Boyd said:


> I’m going to have to call “BS” on this. I *Have* spent hours in Spot-Hoggs shop using the Hooter Shooter to tune my bow as well as my arrows. With the Hooter Shooter you can draw your bow to the *EXACT* same spot. This aspect of the Hooter Shooter is of the up-most importance because it takes the human element out of the equation.
> 
> Prior to the 2006 IFAA World Championships I spent two whole days tuning the arrows I was going to take to Australia. If an arrow *DID NOT* hit the exact same hole in the target, I would turn the knock, or insert another 100 grain point, or refletch, or strip the fletch to check for straightness refletch and start the whole process again. End result was I had 36 arrows that were hitting the same hole. And when I say, exact same hole I mean just that. You could not see any difference is the target between arrows.
> 
> ...


 Boyd, I'm not disagreeing with your test results on the 'E' wheel, but I have to call 'BS' on your 'BS'! I believe Ben shot and is talking about the Pro Wheel. Night and day difference between the two. I couldn't shoot the 'E' wheel worth a diddle, because of high arrows with a short draw, and low arrows with long, but the Pro wheel let me get away with huge DL variations on up and downhill shots, (3/8 to 1/2") and I shot it pretty well. If I didn't value my nose so much, I'd take off the pins and come play with you guys @ Redding next year. Ben, I promised Eddie a set of Pro wheels @ State Broadhead, but I lost his address. Can you call me @ 559-645-4230? Don in Madera


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Is the prowheel a "round on round" wheel produced by Hoyt in the past?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

dragonheart said:


> Is the prowheel a "round on round" wheel produced by Hoyt in the past?


Yes, the good thing about the prowheels was that they had a low letoff so you could get a crisp release. 50% with a slight backroll.55-60% standard setup. Very forgiving of overdraw and underdraw. The new order only understands speed.:wink: Boyd, are you listening?


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## Steve D (Sep 24, 2005)

Does Gerald Hickman still shoot?


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Gerald Hickman is still shooting. I talked with him on the phone last week. He is currently shooting Bowhunter compound.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I get to shoot with Gerald almost twice a month... he still has the magic, and a blast to shoot with and sit and talk to. That's "Pop's" last name "Cycle".... He is currently shooting a Hoyt Vantage LTD, not that pretty green one he was shooting, thats mine now.  Here he is this past weekend at Gray's Harbor Safari.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Gary and Ben I am just sitting back and laughing at all of this


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Gary and Ben I am just sitting back and laughing at all of this


Bob, all you younger guys better get your laughs in now because the geriatric set is coming back and they're all pissed. The problem is we can't remember what we're pissed about.:wink:


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Bob, all you younger guys better get your laughs in now because the geriatric set is coming back and they're all pissed. The problem is we can't remember what we're pissed about.:wink:


That is funny right there!


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Ben, do you mean You and Jimmy are going to compete in the BH style next year? I hope so because you both are my Hero's and we all could use a good lesson, but I am not that far behind you guys in age so I accept the compliment.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

:l:


archer_nm said:


> Ben, do you mean You and Jimmy are going to compete in the BH style next year? I hope so because you both are my Hero's and we all could use a good lesson, but I am not that far behind you guys in age so I accept the compliment.


uhhhh-:zip:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

archer_nm said:


> Ben, do you mean You and Jimmy are going to compete in the BH style next year? I hope so because you both are my Hero's and we all could use a good lesson, but I am not that far behind you guys in age so I accept the compliment.


Guess we will see in Vegas?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Ben, do you mean You and Jimmy are going to compete in the BH style next year? I hope so because you both are my Hero's and we all could use a good lesson, but I am not that far behind you guys in age so I accept the compliment.


I did talk to Jim after this years outdoor nationals and he said he was coming back to bowhunter. Dave Lewis is shooting again seriously, stickbow. I am going to be shooting trad, barebow recurve and bowhunter. We are trying to get Bob Nation healthy again because he has that desire to shoot that these divisions need. Gene Damron has been shooting again after 30 years, Eddie Boyd is shooting barebow again after 30 years. Many of these names certainly won't put fear in the hearts of the young crowd but there are a few good rounds left in each of us. I may have created a monster this weekend in Gary McCain. If he continues his "training" after I've left there , he might just have a chance to be a respectable trad shooter.:angel:


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

itbeso said:


> I did talk to Jim after this years outdoor nationals and he said he was coming back to bowhunter. Dave Lewis is shooting again seriously, stickbow. I am going to be shooting trad, barebow recurve and bowhunter. We are trying to get Bob Nation healthy again because he has that desire to shoot that these divisions need. Gene Damron has been shooting again after 30 years, Eddie Boyd is shooting barebow again after 30 years. Many of these names certainly won't put fear in the hearts of the young crowd but there are a few good rounds left in each of us. I may have created a monster this weekend in Gary McCain. If he continues his "training" after I've left there , he might just have a chance to be a respectable trad shooter.:angel:


I would love it if all thoes guys would come back to BH. I watched You, Jim and my Dad battle it out growing up and wanted to be part of it. I know you all are talking about Redding But I hope you all shoot Vegas, I plan on winning it this year and would be awsome if I did it beating some legends:wink:. I dont know how any of you left Bh it is the best class, I think my family would disown me.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

just respectable ? FIVE SECONDS BABY !!!!!!!!
Gary


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

krmccubbins said:


> I would love it if all thoes guys would come back to BH. I watched You, Jim and my Dad battle it out growing up and wanted to be part of it. I know you all are talking about Redding But I hope you all shoot Vegas, I plan on winning it this year and would be awsome if I did it beating some legends:wink:. I dont know how any of you left Bh it is the best class, I think my family would disown me.


I don't know if everyone knows your familys history,Kris. The mcCubbins family and extended family have had quite an impact on the nonsight classes. Grandmother Jo mcCubbins, if i'm not mistaken is a many time national champion. Dad and mom, Frank and Angie were both national champs in bowhunter class. I think aunt and uncle-by-law, Gary and susie burns were both national champs,\. Sister melissa was a national champ in bowhunter class, and I could be mistaken but I think your brother shane was also a national champ in bowhunter class. Please correct my mistakes but the bottom line is that the McCubbins family has been quite impressive in our style of shooting


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> just respectable ? FIVE SECONDS BABY !!!!!!!!
> Gary


It takes 2 months to work yourself out of the respectable stage.


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

itbeso said:


> I don't know if everyone knows your familys history,Kris. The mcCubbins family and extended family have had quite an impact on the nonsight classes. Grandmother Jo mcCubbins, if i'm not mistaken is a many time national champion. Dad and mom, Frank and Angie were both national champs in bowhunter class. I think aunt and uncle-by-law, Gary and susie burns were both national champs,\. Sister melissa was a national champ in bowhunter class, and I could be mistaken but I think your brother shane was also a national champ in bowhunter class. Please correct my mistakes but the bottom line is that the McCubbins family has been quite impressive in our style of shooting


 
Thanks Ben. We all enjoy the sport very much. Grandma is actully in the Nfaa hall of fame and who is got all of us into it. Everyone that took up the sport has a national cup in there living room mine was as a youth tho, stoped shooting in compititions for 16yrs till two years ago but back on the bus now.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

krmccubbins said:


> Thanks Ben. We all enjoy the sport very much. Grandma is actully in the Nfaa hall of fame and who is got all of us into it. Everyone that took up the sport has a national cup in there living room mine was as a youth tho, stoped shooting in compititions for 16yrs till two years ago but back on the bus now.


Just take it easy on this old man.And help me up those Darrington hills.


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Just take it easy on this old man.And help me up those Darrington hills.




Sound good to me. You come to Darrington and shoot BH and Ill even pull your arrows for you.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Just take it easy on this old man.And help me up those Darrington hills.


Careful he is sand bagging you now - next thing he will be talking about is a small side bet.

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Careful he is sand bagging you now - next thing he will be talking about is a small side bet.
> 
> Matt


Ssssshhhhhhh!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Only if he shoots cougar, bobcat and coyote... and I get to shoot Dylan and the Deer courses... well maybe then!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

itbeso said:


> It takes 2 months to work yourself out of the respectable stage.


57 days to go 5 seconds baby
Gary


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns said:


> Only if he shoots cougar, bobcat and coyote... and I get to shoot Dylan and the Deer courses... well maybe then!


Ren, the last time I shot those courses bowhunter, it was cougar=526, bobcat=509, and coyote=516 and of course back then I didn't have the advantage of the cam and 1/2s. I know, I know that was 24 years ago and what have I done lately. If nothing else we'll have a good time next year. And Kris, tell your dad to set up another barebow get together complete with all the crab and shrimp we can eat.:darkbeer:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

It's a good thing you didn't have cam & 1/2 or those scores would have been at least 10 points higher. then we would have an even harder time breaking the record.
Gary


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

I went to Garys last weekend to train for radical uphill and downhill shots and I'm glad I did. The first day wasn;t pretty but by the time I left, I had learned a lot. I have a lot more confidence now for going over to France for the World fita field championships. The reality is, though, that the europeans have dominated the barebow division in those field championships but I feel I'm as prepared as I can get under the circumstances. With Alan Eagleton and Ty Pelfrey I feel we have one of the strongest teams the USA has ever sent. We'll know next week.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

The three of you represent the best we have, and will do just fine. Good luck and shoot straight!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

What Ren said in Spades - as we say in Montana "HUNT EM UP GIRDLE BUG"


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> What Ren said in Spades - as we say in Montana "HUNT EM UP GIRDLE BUG"


WHAAAAT?:mg:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Long story that involves 3 very drunk fishing guides on a day off (girdle bug is a fly) - let's just say it means "go kick some skinny Italian but"

Matt


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## krmccubbins (Feb 5, 2011)

Go get them Ben. Shot with Alan at Vegas he is a good shot. When is the shoot?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

krmccubbins said:


> Go get them Ben. Shot with Alan at Vegas he is a good shot. When is the shoot?


Competition starts August 15 and goes thru sunday the 19th.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

Boyd , at what distance were you shooting for the 1/16 to move point of impact off the hole, i under stand how 1/16 off at long range would be a bunch and the closer the lesser but at what distance in your shooter does it take 1/16" to move x off of a arrow hole ? I am just curious at what the distance would be, Thanks,




Boyd said:


> I’m going to have to call “BS” on this. I *Have* spent hours in Spot-Hoggs shop using the Hooter Shooter to tune my bow as well as my arrows. With the Hooter Shooter you can draw your bow to the *EXACT* same spot. This aspect of the Hooter Shooter is of the up-most importance because it takes the human element out of the equation.
> 
> Prior to the 2006 IFAA World Championships I spent two whole days tuning the arrows I was going to take to Australia. If an arrow *DID NOT* hit the exact same hole in the target, I would turn the knock, or insert another 100 grain point, or refletch, or strip the fletch to check for straightness refletch and start the whole process again. End result was I had 36 arrows that were hitting the same hole. And when I say, exact same hole I mean just that. You could not see any difference is the target between arrows.
> 
> ...


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## davidcamacho (Feb 24, 2011)

david camacho here. There is nothing id rather do than to get serious about competing in the bowhunter division. seems like everyone is shooting with pins and trigger these days. i love that style also. i have competed in every division that there is. My true favorite is the nonsite bowhunter division. it has been the most challenging and enjoyable for me. BUT where did everyone go? it takes 100 minutes a day for 100 days to get in peak form. Im not about to dedicate that kind of time and effort to shoot against myself. Hopefully with people starting to get the word out maybe we can get it going again. My brother mike camacho and I have been the only brother team to win the world bowhunter team event held in nevada city. We did it in 1997. Love to do it again! Love to here of any archers that will compete again on a regular basis. If so, count me in! I shot a 885 out of a possible 924 at lodi a few years back with no sites. I think i can break that with a little motivation!


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