# 'forgiving' bow?



## jasonflair50 (Nov 12, 2007)

I shoot an older Hoyt bow that is considered 'very forgiving'. what does that mean? easy to shoot? It is a Provantage tracer from 89 or 90. Thanks.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

It's a subjective term that defines a bow that is long axle to axle (40" or more), longer brace height (7" or more) and a mild eccentric (wheel or mild cam).


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## GuyWithBow (Feb 21, 2007)

More specifically, it means the bow has a design that allows you to make shooting form/release mistakes and still fire the arrow cleanly. The factors JCS mentioned are what one usually looks at to "assess" the forgiving nature of that particular bow. With modern bow designd though, it varies widely with any given shooting style or draw length what would be considered forgiving. 

As a rule though, I agree with JCS as what I would consider looking at for a forgiving setup. Having said that, I am going to shoot a Drenalin LD the absolute first chance I get!


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## JPiniewski (Dec 7, 2002)

*Forgiving bow*

A forgiving bow is a bow that you purchase with funds from your kids Christmas fund and your wife forgives you...????

I have no idea what you guys are talking about !!! ???

--JP


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

i also shoot a provantage i got from ebay . i later had to 'upgrade' so bought a protec as well from ebay . i shoot the provantage and the protec sits [because no one will buy it] . if you ever think of buying a more modern bow be sure you shoot it first . if i ever sell the protec i will probably buy another bow [without shooting it] but it will have wheels and not cams .


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

A forgiving bow: one that will put all of your arrows into the centre of the target, regardless of how bad your aim and/or release...........AS IF.

A forgiving bow: one that whispers in your ear after a rotten shot: " Well, dear, that was s**thouse, but I forgive you"...............Hmmm

A forgiving bow: a nonsense term that means bigger and slower bows are somehow better than the more modern varieties..... yeah, that sounds more like it:jksign:


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Corsair said:


> A forgiving bow: one that will put all of your arrows into the centre of the target, regardless of how bad your aim and/or release...........AS IF.
> 
> A forgiving bow: one that whispers in your ear after a rotten shot: " Well, dear, that was s**thouse, but I forgive you"...............Hmmm
> 
> A forgiving bow: a nonsense term that means bigger and slower bows are somehow better than the more modern varieties..... yeah, that sounds more like it:jksign:


Long a to a bows have geater interial in the verticle plane. They also tend to have limbs that move back further when the bow is drawn effectively adding to the brace height as far as stability is concerned. 
Are they more forgiving? No, are they more tolerant of bad form or loose YES, 'cos for the same type and size of mistake they will put the arrow nearer the point of aim than a short, fast less stable bow.


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## CWG (Nov 20, 2003)

JPiniewski said:


> A forgiving bow is a bow that you purchase with funds from your kids Christmas fund and your wife forgives you...????


  and an italicized _HAR_


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

jasonflair50 said:


> I shoot an older Hoyt bow that is considered 'very forgiving'. what does that mean? easy to shoot? It is a Provantage tracer from 89 or 90. Thanks.


One term: torque resistence. I have to admit, usually the arrow will fly slower, but it'll come out straighter and line up better the entire time.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

> 'cos for the same type and size of mistake they will put the arrow nearer the point of aim than a short, fast less stable bow.


Nope. The arrow will go where it is pointed at the instant of release.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Corsair said:


> Nope. The arrow will go where it is pointed at the instant of release.


Hmmm... I disagree. If shooting the fingers, unless you have the butter-smooth release of the Koreans, will got to the right (if you shoot right) due to horizonal string deflection. I think that a set of limbs that can control, make consistent or forgive that deflection is a good set of limbs.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Corsair said:


> Nope. The arrow will go where it is pointed at the instant of release.


No it won't if you torque the bow. And short bows react more to torqueing than longer ones.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

jasonflair50 said:


> I shoot an older Hoyt bow that is considered 'very forgiving'. what does that mean? easy to shoot? It is a Provantage tracer from 89 or 90. Thanks.


.....Yes, pretty much that in a nutshell...A longer , physically heavier, higher brace height bow typically will be able to be shot with more accuracy, and stability, and "Forgiveness" of mistakes than a bow without these qualities...Take Care...Harperman


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

For Jasonflair50

Listen mate - there is just so much garbage written about "forgiving" and "unforgiving" bows and if you listen to it all you may well miss the most important aspect of shooting any bow and that is regardless of what you have, learn to shoot properly ie get good form and practice properly and often and then you will find ALL bows to be "forgiving"


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Corsair said:


> For Jasonflair50
> 
> Listen mate - there is just so much garbage written about "forgiving" and "unforgiving" bows and if you listen to it all you may well miss the most important aspect of shooting any bow and that is regardless of what you have, learn to shoot properly ie get good form and practice properly and often and then you will find ALL bows to be "forgiving"


Ah the old fall back "if you have form all bows are forgiving".
You have read but you have not understood. If your form is good enough to smash nocks at 100yds, then fine there are no intolerant bows for you. The design of longer A to A bow does have its draw backs as far as ultimate accuracy is concerned, such as inconsistances over the longer cable lenght and longer limb lenght but for most of us here on this forum the benefits (Greater torue resistance and better stability.) out weigh the disadvantages considerablely.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

You are absolutetly right. I do not and never have understood the term "forgiving" when used with a bow. The adherents to this point of view describe such bows in terms which can only be described as esoteric, and bordering on the arcane.

I shoot a Mathews Prestige compound using a release aid and according to all of the "experts" this bow should be causing me all sorts of problems because it has an AtA of only 35 inches and a brace height of , wait for it, 6 inches

The fact of the matter is that it is one of the most delightful bows I have ever shot and puts its arrows precisely where I aim them right out to 90m (I shoot FITA). If the arrow doesn't land in the 10, then it's because my hold isn't sufficiently steady. I know pretty well where the arrow is going to land at the moment of release because my follow through consists of watching the arrow depart the bow through my sights and noting where the sight picture is at the instant of release. 

Most people don't do this firstly because they don't know they should and secondly because they blink on firing.

As for torque - no bow induces torque, people do. If you don't want to torque the bow then don't torque the bloody thing. Shoot with a totally relaxed grip and keep it relaxed throughouot the shot cycle.

And as for the old "fall back" about good form being used as a "convenient" counter to the so-called benefits of longer AtA, high brace height and greater bow inertia, it isn't me that has missed the point - it is people such as yourself. What you guys want is a bow that will plant all of its arrows into the centre of the target without you having to put in the necessary work to be a good shot.

Well there aren't any such bows, as you would find out if you all got off your butts and put in some hard practice, AFTER learning how to shoot a bow properly in the first place.

And I'll say it one last time - there aren't ANY unforgiving bows - but there are a lot of shooters who are too lazy to find this out for themselves. Personally, I don't care whether you think I'm right or wrong. I know I'm right and you guys are just looking for crutches whose "benefits" exist only in your own minds.


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## Yellowfin (Mar 6, 2007)

jasonflair50 said:


> I shoot an older Hoyt bow that is considered 'very forgiving'. what does that mean? easy to shoot? It is a Provantage tracer from 89 or 90. Thanks.


 If it was previously owned by a member of the clergy.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

And Still you do not understand. The key word in your last post was RELEASE AID and this is a finger forum. If you want to find out what you are really talking about take all your release aids, put them away for a couple of years and shoot your compound with a tab then come back and tell us what you have found out.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Corsair...I agree with Your post, to a certain degree....It is a fact that all bows are capable of outshooting an archer....And I also agree that it's up to the Archer to try and perfect His/Her form...But, in the Real World, People are imperfect, and so then a bow that has a design that will help to minimize these mistakes is generally thought of as "Forgiving"...Form errors do happen...And when they do, why NOT shoot a bow that will minimize the effects of this bad shot??...Some bows are very good at this trait, and some bows seem to amplify form errors, or at least at the minimum, dont help the Archer out at all...I understand what Your saying, We all should be trying to perfect our form, and shot sequence, but NOBODY shoots perfect arrows most of the time...Thats the reason that a target isnt a dot the diam. of the arrow, and any arrows not stacked inside of each other, (inside of the first arrow shot), dont count for any score...The Prestige is a good bow, but I'd venture to say, that if You shot fingers, and were working toward the goal of being a National, or World Champion, or winning any major Tourney's, that You would end up shooting an Apex 7, or Conquest/Conquest Apex...A couple points here and there make the difference....Take Care....Harperman


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Harperman

Hi. Firstly if I were finger shooting, I wouldn't be using a Prestige because of finger pinch. The string angle is too great. What I'd be looking for is the shortest bow I could find that allowed for comfortable finger drawing. Why the shortest? Because I don't believe in carrying any more weight than necessary and if I need more weight I'll add it in the form of a stabiliser with adjustbale weights.

According to the theory about longer heavier AtA bows with greater brace heights being more "forgiving" (shudder), I should therefore be still shooting my old Hoyt Oasis. But then I never found the Oasis to be anything special, except it was heavy and slowish. Sorry but the easiest bow I have ever found to shoot accurately, even if I haven't shot it for quite a while, is the Pretige. It's an extremely smooth fast and comfortable bow to shoot in spite of all of its so-called shortcomings.

I do understand what you are saying in your post but I doubt very much if any bow made is going to help a guy who torques his shots, or flinches his release or wanders all over the place with his aim. If he thinks the bow helps in those cases then good luck to him, but I believe truly, that he is deluding himself.

What I do know is that if you give a good shooter any sort of bow he/she will shoot it very well. If you give a poor shooter the same bows he/she will shoot them poorly. What do you think causes the difference?

Also if you look at target recurve bows as a good example. Theoretically if one believes the guff about "forgiving" bows, everyone should shoot the longest, highest brace height, heaviest recurve available regardless of their size and draw length. But of course no sane recurver does this because they want a bow that suits their height and their draw and their strength. So you'll get 64 inch recurves shooting against 70 inch recurves and doing just as well. WHy? Because its both a form thing and the bow "fits" them properly and these are the factors that matter.

Let's just agree to disagree, eh? No offence meant.:wink:


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## GuyWithBow (Feb 21, 2007)

Corsair,

Not attacking you or anything, but what do the guys beating you shoot? Agree with Harperman, when you are shooting the big tournaments, a few points matter and you are virtually guaranteed to make mistakes. The better your set-up masks those mistakes, the better you will score. Thus, when you lose, what do you get beat with?


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I shoot regularly with 3 different bows - a Martin SlayR, a Bowman Accuriser and my Mathews Prestige.

My scores with all three are about the same.

Because of my health I don't compete in tournaments any more but I don't get beaten within my club, so I can't really answer your queston.

There are only two things that affect how well I shoot and they are : the wind and if I am tired, my ability to hold steady. I've also shot many other shooters bows in the club to check their set ups and they seem to shoot as well as mine, which sort of reinforces my feelings about what I believe matters.

If it is any guide for you I am shooting around 1300 for the full FITA round which for my age (69) and the state of my health, isn't all that bad, I believe. I'm just as happy to shoot for score with any of my bows except that I find the Mathews the more comfortable to shoot because it is lighter than the others, in terms of mass weight.


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## GuyWithBow (Feb 21, 2007)

Corsair said:


> I shoot regularly with 3 different bows - a Martin SlayR, a Bowman Accuriser and my Mathews Prestige.
> 
> My scores with all three are about the same.
> 
> ...


Well, you certainly have had time to learn how to shoot! At the end of the day, you are right all things being equal, you shoot what you hold the steadiest. If a lighter, shorter bow does that for you... stick with it.

I shot an Apex for the first time today and understand why they are so popular with tourny folks... it was sick forgiving. I tried to make a mistake with it and I couldn't, as long as I was pushing with my bow hand and had any symblance of back tension on my release. Having said that, it ain't worth $800 to replace my Hoyt Protech, but did shoot sweet. Could deffinately tell a difference in that bow and a few others I have shot this year (I could make them shoot ugly by just flubbing a release or changing grip pressure/point). Simple doesn't happen with the ProTech and Apex, think there is alot to be said about the design of a bow and it's ability to suck up a brain fart.

Keep chunkin' that wood homes!:darkbeer:


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Just to show you all that I haven't got a closed mind, if anyone can point out a bow that will plonk my arrows close to the centre regardless of how badly I shoot it, I'll buy it straight away.

I get tired of constant practice at my age:wink:


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Corsair, again, I understand Your statements ,and agree with them to a point....I cant agree with the FITA Recurver's anology, though...I have owned many target recurve risers, and a handfull of different I.L.F. limbs...All weigh close to the same, depending on length, mostly...The Hoyt AXIS is the heaviest riser that I have shot, it's a heavy riser...Over-all, though not much difference between most I.L.F. riser/limb combo's...The "Feel" is different for sure though...A 70" bow, and a 64" bow feel miles apart to Me...I also understand wanting a light bow to start with, so that You can add weight where You need/want it...No bow will make a poor shooter a good shot, and vice-versa, BUT, some bows do help minimize an archers mistakes...Theoretically, two archers of equal ability shooting side by side, one with what is a known to be a "Forgiving" bow, and the other a bow that is know for being a "Critical" bow...at the end of the match, I'll bet the farm which one has the best scores...I do believe that alot of todays bows dont have the riser geometry, and over-all bow design that has always been though of as a forgiving bow design, and yet, they still shoot very stable and forgiving, if the archer is of decent ability...There are other factors at work here, and more than meets the eye, at first glance, anyway...I'm tired, but I will look forward to seeing more on this thread...I dont take You for being a pot stirrer, but I think that sometimes it's good for a person to stir the pot a little, and make folks actually THINK about the WHYS?, and WHY NOTS?...I've been up since yesterday, gotta get some sleep...Take Care...Harperman


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Hi Harperman

No I'm not a pot stirrer and I'm glad you seem to understand this. This just happens to be a subject that I feel strongly about.

I've shot an awful lot of bows in my time and seen a lot more shot by others and I have never felt nor seen any bow actually demonstrate this so-called "forgiveness" quality - whether shot off the fingers or using a release aid.

I have come across many archers who have spent a small fortune chasing that elusive "forgiveness" in their purchases and they all seem to be searching still. I know if I were a bow manufacturer I would be loudly proclaiming my product as being the "most forgiving bow" in the world. Great for sales, but in the end I think it is pure hype and I think we archers can easily persuade ourselves that having spent over $1000 on the latest and "best" creation, then we really do have the most "forgiving" bow - (ou've got to justify your purchase somehow.

By the way, re recurves, there is actually quite a weight and feel difference these days with the new carbon risers now available. I've also seen movies of the Korean women shooting using relatively small bows and dumping their arrows in the 10 ring with ease at 70m. I've also seen the other extreme with the men.

Before I would ever buy a bow on the basis of its "forgiveness" I'd want to see this quality actually demonstrated before I'd spend my money on it. *If it really did exist then all of the top shooters in the world would be shooting precisely the same bow and set up because if a bow truly is "forgiving" then everyone would demand one and I haven't seen this happen in recurve or compound (both finger and release aid shooting).*

If you are saying that a bow can be "forgiving" for one person and not for another then I would have to say that this quality then, has more to do with the state of mind of the archer concerned rather than any intrinsic quality of the bow.

Anway, those are my thoughts on the subject and whilst I would love to see a bow that would somehow magically correct all of your mistakes, I haven't seen it and doubt if I ever will.

All the best

Tom


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## GuyWithBow (Feb 21, 2007)

Oh goody, a science question!!!!

Is it possible to misalign a shooting machine to induce "error" in a release or a grip? If it is, we can quantify this. 

That will give us two catagories of "Forgiving" (if they exist).

1) A bow that can consistantly recover from errors and overall, provide better and more consistant arrow flight after said error.

2) A bow that less suceptable to said error being made in the first place because of it's design.

This could be fun, who has a machine?


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## jasonflair50 (Nov 12, 2007)

*thanks man!*

I understand now. Thaks for evererybody's help. cheers :darkbeer::thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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