# My top 10 tips for shooting fingers



## itbeso

There are a lot of small things I try to teach fellow finger shooters and I'm sure most of you out there have your own little "secrets". I hope you can share a few of those with the board. I am going to start with 2 of my most basic suggestions. 1) When shooting three fingers under, always place your fingers on the string at about a 30 degree angle with your finger tips pointed downward. This will make your first finger joints more in line, you will get off the string smoother, and most importantly, you will reduce your string twist to next to nothing. As a test, stand facing a mirror, place your fingers on the string perpendicular as most people do, then pull the bow to anchor and see how much offset you create in the string where your fingers are. As you come to anchor, there is major twisting of the string going on as you fit your hand to your face. Try it again with your fingers angled before you draw. 2) I think most people know what stringwalking entails:ie. going to different positions on the string for different yardages. Well, I see an overwhelming number of three under shooters stringwalking without even knowing it. Most archers pay next to no attention to detail when they nock their arrow and position their fingers to shoot. I preach putting your fingers on the string about 1 1/2" under your nock and sliding your fingers up until they just make soft contact with the nock, and then practicing doing it that same way everytime so that that pressure becomes engrained in your brain. I also say watch that motion while you are doing it so that it becomes habit.In stringwalking, every twist of your serving could be 1 yard difference. i see fellow archers nocking an arrow then placing their fingers under the nock with no regard to precision. Do this simple test, Place your fingers on the string as i have suggested and shoot an arrow at your point on. Then , jam your fingers up against the bottom of the nock and shoot again. I guarantee you the second arrow will hit high. Your are stringwalking without even knowing it, if you aren't placing your fingers the same everytime. I have more things I would like to share if this thread catches on. I hope to hear from others on their little "secrets.


----------



## Matt_Potter

Another way to check and see if you are torquing the string is make a simple string bow. A string bow is just a loop of para cord long enough so that when you loop it over the thumb and web of your bow hand it is just long enough for you to hit anchor. When you hit anchor you can look down and clearly see if you are torquing the string. 

Rod Jenkins showed my this and I messed with my hook until I ended up hooking the string exactly like ITBESO just described. All my tabs have the string grove going across on a diagonal. 

Matt


----------



## benofthehood

great stuff guys 

keep it coming .


----------



## Hank D Thoreau

I don't shoot fingers, I shoot arrows.


----------



## itbeso

In my first post, I talked about the importance of placing your fingers in the same position everytime but it doesn't stop there. I have shown this process to others many times and the first few times they try it, they are careful about the placement. Then they look up at the target, and while looking at the target, tap dance their fingers on the string to get a "comfortable feel". There is no way they haven't changed their finger position slightly, so right back to highs and lows in their groups. Place your fingers on the string, put your hand in the grip and put a little pressure by pulling the string slightly. By doing this, you have locked in your bowhand and made sure your fingers are in the same place you originally put them, from that position, look up at the target, continue to fulldraw and anchor. By doing the same thing everytime, your groups will be much more consistent


----------



## itbeso

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I don't shoot fingers, I shoot arrows.


Aren't you off topic? I distinctly said shooting fingers.:teeth:


----------



## steve morley

Any tips to stop my fingers falling off whe its -25C, I just cannot shoot with gloves.


----------



## gnome

Don't even know what -25c is......whats that in fahrenheit?


----------



## steve morley

gnome said:


> don't even know what -25c is......whats that in fahrenheit?


-13F, so Im looking forward to NAFAC in Miami in around 6 weeks


----------



## itbeso

steve morley said:


> Any tips to stop my fingers falling off whe its -25C, I just cannot shoot with gloves.


So, the sight of all those lovely lasses walking around in your videos is tempered by unbelievably cold weather there in Estonia. I may have to put off my plans to move there.:teeth:


----------



## dryhte

> 1) When shooting three fingers under, always place your fingers on the string at about a 30 degree angle with your finger tips pointed downward. This will make your first finger joints more in line, you will get off the string smoother, and most importantly, you will reduce your string twist to next to nothing. As a test, stand facing a mirror, place your fingers on the string perpendicular as most people do, then pull the bow to anchor and see how much offset you create in the string where your fingers are. As you come to anchor, there is major twisting of the string going on as you fit your hand to your face. Try it again with your fingers angled before you draw.


itbeso, your first tip sounds very interesting but I'm not sure I actually understand what you mean. Could you please post a few closeups of hand with fingers 'angled' and pointed downward before you touch the bow string, and with fingers on the bowstring? I'd like to understand completely what you mean, because I think I'm doing something wrong with my fingers  

Thanks!


----------



## itbeso

dryhte said:


> itbeso, your first tip sounds very interesting but I'm not sure I actually understand what you mean. Could you please post a few closeups of hand with fingers 'angled' and pointed downward before you touch the bow string, and with fingers on the bowstring? I'd like to understand completely what you mean, because I think I'm doing something wrong with my fingers
> 
> Thanks!


Dryhte, I am a dinasaur when it comes to posting pics and such so I will try to explain it better. If you are right handed, place your fingers on your bowstring perpendicular to the string( at a 90% angle to the string). Then rotate your knuckles up so that your fingers will be pointing downward and to your left at about a 30% slant.


----------



## grantmac

With regards to the accidental stringwalking:

I like to keep my tabs just a little taller than my fingers so they make positive contact with the nock without the finger itself getting jammed under it (but still in contact). That way there is a positive register without any interference.

As for the angled hook:

It really depends on your anchor and which fingers you place the most pressure on. Most (but not all) people put the pressure something like this:
Index: 40%
Middle: 50%
Ring: 10%
Which makes the angled hook make sense. But other folks balance it a lot closer so they like less angle, the two are related.
Personally I like to hook-up with some tension on the string and since starting to shoot with a higher anchor I like a little less angle.

-Grant


----------



## Bigjono

Good post, thank you.


----------



## Bender

So far so good, in that I'm already pretty much doing these things already. EXCEPT the angled fingers. I just simply haven't closely looked at that. I'm going to have to look into it.


----------



## Sanford

Getting a string hook with a relaxed hand, setting up the tension in the forearm to hold the string-hook in place v. using a tense hand and fingers is high on the list to reducing string torque and getting cleanly off the string as well.


----------



## Easykeeper

Do you also recommend angling the fingers for someone shooting split finger vs. three under? 

It's always been a bit of a battle for me shooting split. The angled approach like you describe is more comfortable and lets me shoot with less strain in my wrist and forearm, but the angled fingers seem to drag on the nock when I release even though my Cavalier tab has a finger spacer.


----------



## Bowmania

Shooting split and trying the 30 degree idea just imparts torque to the string. I verified this with the string bow. The two strings are out line and more so than 90 degrees. In fact to get them in the same plane I have to slightly turn them (my fingers) up or I'll torque the string. Can't figure why three under would be any different.

Bowmania


----------



## Maxbks

Thanks for the tip. Just checked the crease in my tab, doesn't look like much of an angle. I'll be keeping an eye (and tab) on it as I shoot today. Max


----------



## Sanford

Bowmania said:


> Shooting split and trying the 30 degree idea just imparts torque to the string. I verified this with the string bow. The two strings are out line and more so than 90 degrees. In fact to get them in the same plane I have to slightly turn them (my fingers) up or I'll torque the string. Can't figure why three under would be any different.
> 
> Bowmania


OK, I'm lost. What do you do different in the string bow with setting the 3 fingers in it to replicate 3-under v. split?


----------



## Viper1

Todd -



Bowmania said:


> Shooting split and trying the 30 degree idea just imparts torque to the string. I verified this with the string bow. The two strings are out line and more so than 90 degrees. In fact to get them in the same plane I have to slightly turn them (my fingers) up or I'll torque the string. Can't figure why three under would be any different.
> 
> Bowmania


Correct. If you start with your fingers perpendicular to the string, they may naturally find a *slight* downward angle. That's usually fine and won't result in string torque. Too much of an angle ay interfere with nock travel as it leaves the string. The only catch is that a perfectly perpendicular grip will require a little muscle effort. I think that's usually a fair trade off.

What I teach people, is that in addition to a deep hook, which really isn't negotiable, exact finger placement and weight distribution isn't critical, as long as it's consistent. The deep hook alone goes a long way to making that happen.

Viper1 out.


----------



## Sanford

Viper, I also find that a loose wrist goes a long way in aiding in a natural, non-torquing, string hold. Deep hook, relaxed cup of fingers, loose wrist - though, heck to do all the time and do rightly - make it almost impossible to torque on the string and allows for a natural hand/string alignment. For me, the string in the fingers eventually follow the angle under tension and not set it up and fix it on a certain position.


----------



## Viper1

Sanford -

Correct! There are "technically" only two muscles that should be used in creating and maintaining the deep hook. Any other muscles employed usually result in tension and the wrist is a prime concern.

Viper1 out.


----------



## itbeso

Easykeeper said:


> Do you also recommend angling the fingers for someone shooting split finger vs. three under?
> 
> It's always been a bit of a battle for me shooting split. The angled approach like you describe is more comfortable and lets me shoot with less strain in my wrist and forearm, but the angled fingers seem to drag on the nock when I release even though my Cavalier tab has a finger spacer.


I personally try to angle my finger placement whether shooting split or 3 under. The angle seems less with split because there is an arrow dividing your grip on the string. One thing I should have added to that post is that this approach to positioning your fingers on the string is for barebow applications where we anchor on our face. If anchoring under the chin, such as oly archers do, the hand does not torque the string nearly as much. Also, and this is going to touch a nerve with some, It is imperative that you use a tab that does not have a stiff backing on it . Your tab should be soft and supple to enable your hand and fingers to more easily form to your face at anchor. I recommend soft hair tabs. This, of course, if you are not shooting a glove.


----------



## itbeso

grantmac said:


> With regards to the accidental stringwalking:
> 
> I like to keep my tabs just a little taller than my fingers so they make positive contact with the nock without the finger itself getting jammed under it (but still in contact). That way there is a positive register without any interference.
> 
> As for the angled hook:
> 
> It really depends on your anchor and which fingers you place the most pressure on. Most (but not all) people put the pressure something like this:
> Index: 40%
> Middle: 50%
> Ring: 10%
> Which makes the angled hook make sense. But other folks balance it a lot closer so they like less angle, the two are related.
> Personally I like to hook-up with some tension on the string and since starting to shoot with a higher anchor I like a little less angle.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, your first sentence is absolutely the way I do mine. Your tip was just one more little refinement I should have added originally. Thanks.


----------



## rsarns

Great Thread!


----------



## Bebe

Just slap me if I'm not in line with the theme here. In regards to my finger shooting 2 tips that stand out for me are summarized as "back tension" and "blank bale". Just throwing those terms out isn't enough but how we utilize these concepts and integrate them into our shot is key. I typically find back tension through scapular movement and the image I use is driving my elbow back and around.

I really like using blank bale but I typically don't use it cold turkey for weeks on end exclusively. But rather I warm up on a blank bale. On a dedicated day I'll shoot eyes closed for a few ends then move to eyes open. Then I'll immediately go to shooting a target, and if it isn't feeling like my blank bale shots I'll drift back to blank bale shooting or close bale shooting with a target. I'm not very regimented here, I see.

The other drill I like doing is long draw where you sit at full draw for 10 seconds aiming, continuing expansion and let down. I'll also do that same drill and shoot the arrow after 10 seconds. This drill addresses a bunch of issues for finger shooters. I have this flaw in my shot where I try to control or freeze the steadiness of my bow arm with mini collapses. It works somewhat and then it really DOESN'T work and starts to morph into the "yips". I think the pistol shooters call it "chicken finger"!


----------



## Maxbks

Maxbks said:


> Thanks for the tip. Just checked the crease in my tab, doesn't look like much of an angle. I'll be keeping an eye (and tab) on it as I shoot today. Max


Shot a bit and finger angle on string looked pretty good. Unlike Matt Potter who's string grove runs at an angle on tab, mine runs pretty close to parallel to backing on tab but the tab sits on my fingers at about the 30 degree angle. Quess all is about the same. Hoping somewhere from tip#2 thru 10 Itbeso touches on back tension and creeping, think that is my biggest problem at present. Meanwhile I'll pull out my MBB vol.3 and watch Rod Jenkins again. He covered it pretty well. Max


----------



## zdogk9

steve morley said:


> Any tips to stop my fingers falling off whe its -25C, I just cannot shoot with gloves.


Steve, I used to fillet fish, after my hands got real cold to cold I'd dip them in hot water, when they warmed up it seemed as if it took an hour or so for them to get cold again, this was handling fish that were about 33 degrees or with water not much warmer running over them continuously


----------



## Easykeeper

I guess I've found a bit of compromise in the angle vs. muscle strain issue. A while back someone posted a link to a page from Kisik Lee on gripping the string. He mentioned and showed some photographs of where he recommended pressure fall on the fingers and it works pretty well for me, at least so far. I don't think it would work well with a glove though.

It's much like everybody says, the deep hook, but in addition he wrote to try and get a bit of upward pressure, the contact point is actually a little below center on the finger tips. Felt a little awkward at first, but it's been working pretty well lately.

I did a little experimenting with the angled fingers and a three under grip, I can see where it might have merit. Definitely worth a try. I've been thinking about trying again to get used to three under over the winter and if I do it will be part of the new regimen.


----------



## itbeso

Please keep in mind that when I post on these threads about form and shooting, etc. that I'm referencing the barebow styles of shooting:ie. high anchors, head tilt toward string,and usually three fingers under.There are some posters here who teach olympic style archery and I feel the techniques have distinct differences. Just trying to deflect any future misunderstandings that might arise about teaching strategies because I feel they are two distinct disciplines with specific needs and form issues unique to each.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer

Interesting, and great thread. This explains why my Black Widow 3 under tab has a groove worn in it at an angle. I was wondering if I was doing something wrong. It appears that I was already gripping the string at this angle that you mention. Although, I like a heavier tab, versus a thinner hair type tab, as I've been shooting around 60# and it protects my finger tips better.


----------



## itbeso

Since returning to recurve and finger shooting, I have noticed that the overwhelming majority of trad style shooters follow one pattern in their shot sequence. What I'm seeing fellow archers do is grip their bow, place their fingers on the string( either split or three under), raise their bow so that the arrow is level with their target, kind of do a pre aim, then pull the string straight back from that position. What I would like you to try is this. Prep your shot as I described earlier. Place your fingers on the string, low of the nock, slowly slide your tab up until it softly touches the arrow, then set your bowhand into the grip and put a little tension against the string so that you don't move the position of your fingers. Once you have set your pre draw sequence, look at your target and start your draw from the position(looking down upon your bow) that you preset everything. Draw as you raise the bow and continue drawing low across the nipple area of your chest( kind of like what I used to call a girly draw. Sorry ladies.) until you have reached full draw, then raise your hand up to your face and set your anchor. You will accomplish two things with this method. First, you will notice that your back muscles engage almost immediately and by the time that you are at full draw they have locked into place and will make it a lot easier to control creeping(back tension). Secondly, you will be able to pull more weight, easier, than you can imagine, because the back muscles are the strongest in the body and you are using them properly.


----------



## steve morley

itbeso said:


> Please keep in mind that when I post on these threads about form and shooting, etc. that I'm referencing the barebow styles of shooting:ie. high anchors, head tilt toward string,and usually three fingers under.There are some posters here who teach olympic style archery and I feel the techniques have distinct differences. Just trying to deflect any future misunderstandings that might arise about teaching strategies because I feel they are two distinct disciplines with specific needs and form issues unique to each.


Some great info here, I agree there is some differences between Trad and Oly shooting but the core fundamentals are almost the same(like back tension, expansion etc). I had some interesting talks with Korean Olympic Coach Kim Hung Tak, although he has taught Olympic form at the highest level, his personal passion is shooting the tradition Korean horn bow so he could releate to my shooting Longbow quite well.


----------



## c-lo

Itbeso, 

Thanks for posting this thread, helping me already.


----------



## zestycj7

Ben,
Thank you for taking the time to share this info with everyone, if ppl were to take the time and really work on thier draw and anchor the way you suggest they would be able to see the increase in thier scores over night.
I know the few small tricks that Gary showed me one day brought my game up alot.
Thank you again for sharing just a small bit of your vast knowlage with the rest of us.
Don.


----------



## Viper1

it -



itbeso said:


> First, you will notice that your back muscles engage almost immediately and by the time that you are at full draw they have locked into place and will make it a lot easier to control creeping(back tension). Secondly, you will be able to pull more weight, easier, than you can imagine, because the back muscles are the strongest in the body and you are using them properly.


It that works for you that's great. but it's not the only, or even the best way of doing it, IMHO anyway. The low draw, akin to the "swing draw" may engage the back muscles early, but that's totally unnecessary. Back tension comes into play at anchor and after the release, what happens before really doesn't matter. Starting the draw from a low position also puts the shoulder muscles (rotator cuff) at greater risk and "may" make alignment more difficult for some people. (And btw - for most people, the back muscles aren't the strongest functional ones in the body, the larger leg muscles are.)

I still contend that the strongest (and safest) draw is from a preset position, with the lines of force directly across the muscles and joints being used. Granted that's easier to do with a low anchor, as compared to a high, under the eye type of anchor. That's just an added benefit to the under the chin anchor used by Olympic shooters. 

As an example, kyudo practitioners use a very high draw, that is arguably the most protective on the shoulder girdle and allows full use of the appropriate back muscles. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## itbeso

Viper, for most of my archery life(43 years) I used a semi high draw with my bowhand elevated and drawing as I lowered the bow and expanded my two shoulders and arms apart. The method I described earlier has proven to be so superior to my old method That I wouldn't even think of going back. As for the low anchor, I see very few people in the non sight disciplines using it and, as I stated previously, there are distinct differences in the way I would teach an Oly style archer and a non sight archer. With that said, your comments are more than appreciated as this thread was started to have an exchange of ideas that may end up helping others. I hope everyone can glean a few pearls that will be useful in their shooting and I encourage everyone to participate in the exchange.


----------



## Viper1

it - 

As I said, if that worked for you and for others, that's great. There are just too many people in all archery disciplines with slightly different takes on it, to discount other approaches. Agree that this is the type of exchange that we need more off here. 

Now, it pretty obvious why most bare bow shooters don't normally use an under the chin anchor, the gaps at closer distances would be enormous. The fact remains, that anchor does produce better lines of tension, but compromises have to be made, based on what the shooter is after. Being able to sight right down the arrow and/or minimize gaps will usually trump subtle changes in alignment. 

Oddly enough, whether I'm teaching bare bow ("trad") or Olympic, the fundamentals are exactly the same. Even later on, a lot of the differences may fall into the window dressing category. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## itbeso

Viper1 said:


> it -
> 
> As I said, if that worked for you and for others, that's great. There are just too many people in all archery disciplines with slightly different takes on it, to discount other approaches. Agree that this is the type of exchange that we need more off here.
> 
> Now, it pretty obvious why most bare bow shooters don't normally use an under the chin anchor, the gaps at closer distances would be enormous. The fact remains, that anchor does produce better lines of tension, but compromises have to be made, based on what the shooter is after. Being able to sight right down the arrow and/or minimize gaps will usually trump subtle changes in alignment.
> 
> Oddly enough, whether I'm teaching bare bow ("trad") or Olympic, the fundamentals are exactly the same. Even later on, a lot of the differences may fall into the window dressing category.
> 
> Viper1 out.


The purpose of threads like these is to make people aware of as many approaches to form and shooting styles as possible, then they can try different ones and make decisions as to what works best for them. That is why contributions like yours are valuable to everyone here. My posts are based on what has worked well for me, but, we are all better served with as much information as possible at our disposal.


----------



## Matt_Potter

IT - Mark Applegate uses this same draw must be something in the water. Something I have been playing with - I'll get serious about it now. 

Matt


----------



## Viper1

it - 



itbeso said:


> The purpose of threads like these is to make people aware of as many approaches to form and shooting styles as possible, then they can try different ones and make decisions as to what works best for them. That is why contributions like yours are valuable to everyone here. My posts are based on what has worked well for me, but, we are all better served with as much information as possible at our disposal.


Ditto. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## Easykeeper

itbeso said:


> The purpose of threads like these is to make people aware of as many approaches to form and shooting styles as possible, then they can try different ones and make decisions as to what works best for them. That is why contributions like yours are valuable to everyone here. My posts are based on what has worked well for me, but, we are all better served with as much information as possible at our disposal.


And that right there is the strength of Archery Talk over most of the other "Traditional" forums. The melting pot of disciplines that even if occasionally divisive, is usually very informative. Target archers, 3D'ers, hunters, and those with a foot in multiple camps all rubbing shoulders. It's good to know there is not just one way and that we can all learn something from the other.

Thanks for a great thread itbeso and Viper...:thumbs_up


----------



## Maxbks

itbeso said:


> The purpose of threads like these is to make people aware of as many approaches to form and shooting styles as possible, then they can try different ones and make decisions as to what works best for them. That is why contributions like yours are valuable to everyone here. My posts are based on what has worked well for me, but, we are all better served with as much information as possible at our disposal.


That's a big 10-4:thumbs_up


----------



## jusoldave

A short aside:

That breadth and depth of experience and information is exactly why I'm here, and not on other forums.

One thing I've noticed about itbeso and Viper (among quite a few others): although their style and form differ, they both frequently include the statement, "... works for _me_.", and/or, "... if it works for you, that's great.". To my admittedly simple mind, that approach infuses a lotta extra credibility into their discussion points.

Anyway, just one ol' boy's observations and opinion; we now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


----------



## Matt_Potter

Some one asked for some images on the finger angle thing - I have a few more computer skills than our resident dinosaur so thought I would post some up.

I adress the string with my fingers at this angle









Then I change the angle of my fingers to this









Here is a shot of how the string sits on my fingers with out a tab









The tab on the right I am breaking in once they get broke in I trim them like the tab on the left









For you guys who don't know him - ITBESO's name is Ben Rodgers - I met him at US fita nationals - I was on the practice line with Allan Eagleton and there was this Old guy down the line from us just laying them in there - I asked Allan "who is that Old guy" his response was "Ben Rodgers - he can shoot" Ben proceeded to kick Allan's and my but all over the unmarked range that day. We had dinner that night and I learned a ton - Ben might be a little rough around the edges but, he is extremely knowledgeable in a very broad spectrum of archery and always willing to help. If I have questions or issues Ben is one of the first guys I go to and when he makes suggestions about gear or form I am all ears.

The stuff he is showing us isn't the only way to do it but, it is well worth serious consideration - Ben can and does walk the walk from indoors to field to hunting he has been there and done that - possibly because he is older than dirt.

Matt


----------



## itbeso

The next issue I would like to comment on has more to do with the mental end of things. The brain is a wonderful thing but it can work against us some times. I am a big advocate of not scoring in practice as I would rather shoot a lot of arrows at fewer yardages each practice session. In other words, when I go to the range to practice, I usually pick out a a few distances and concentrate solely on those that day. I want to get my gaps engrained in my head. The next practice, I will usually pick out different yardages and work on them. You know whether you are shooting well or not.Shooting for score in practice,in my opinion, is not beneficial for the following reasons.First, practice is for developing good form and shooting habits. If you are thinking about score on every arrow, you usually are not concentrating on the things that will bring you a good score. Secondly, most of us shoot better in our back yards than we do in competition and shooting a great score with no one around has no meaning, except to drag you down when you do go to a competition. See if this rings a bell, you shoot your best score ever in a practice session and the go to a tournament a few days later. Instead of concentrating on good shooting mechanics, all you can think of is "i shot so and so the other day, I've got to shoot that today" and the next thing you know your shooting goes to heck because you are totally focused on the wrong thing. And, heaven forbid, that you told friends what you shot, then you just increased the pressure on yourself 5 fold. My best scores, historically, have come after good practices concentrating on mechanics and aiming technique without scoring any arrows. In that respect, your brain knows you are shooting well and will help. In the other scenario , Your brain can be your worst enemy due to expectations


----------



## steve morley

itbeso said:


> I am a big advocate of not scoring in practice as I would rather shoot a lot of arrows at fewer yardages each practice session. In other words, when I go to the range to practice, I usually pick out a a few distances and concentrate solely on those that day.


I like to score, specially on field rounds, If Im with Kats I let her score or if by myself just write the numbers and worry about adding up after I finished the round. When I do check the score Im looking for those distances where I may need to work on, like I shoot 50y really well but 45y seems a problem for me so I will spend more time at that 45y range.

I mix it up at little doing walkback from 10 to 80y, I play as a game in trying to maintain a scoring group if I miss I will go forward and start again, keeps me shooting at my weaker distances and flowing through the easy distances, these seem to keep me focused and adds a small element of tourney pressure feeling as well. 

For Field I will stand at one distance and shoot 5 arrow ends (4 is normal) seems to help me shoot 4 good arrows in tourney where I might have only shot 3 previously. For Indoor rounds I sometimes shoot 6 arrow ends and remove one of the best scoring arrow, for me seems to develop better mental stamina/discipline for tourneys.

Works for me


----------



## BLACK WOLF

I personally feel an archer should figure out their personality and how it applies to archery goals.

There's a reason why some training and practice techniques with some people and not others and vice versa.

In some cases an archer/athlete needs to work on over coming and issue...whereas others may just learn to work with it.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Matt_Potter

steve morley said:


> For Field I will stand at one distance and shoot 5 arrow ends (4 is normal) seems to help me shoot 4 good arrows in tourney instead of maybe 3.
> 
> Works for me


Great idea - I have a small problem with that last arrow - small like I have a tough time keeping it on the bale. 

Matt


----------



## steve morley

Matt I seem more comfortable on Hunter rounds just because there is a lot of changing positions and I can take each shot as if my first and only, Field for me takes a little more mental discipline standing at say 65 yards and shooting 4 good arrows seems much harder, learning to shoot 5 good arrows seems to make it feel easier when I shoot a normal 4 arrows in a tourney.


----------



## Matt_Potter

Steve

My back ground is hunting and 3D I've shot 2 field shoots in my life. I shoot a pretty good first arrow but as ITBESO can tell you my third arrow in fita flat out stinks. Looks like I'm going to be able to make the Florida shoot so you can see it in person. 

Matt


----------



## steve morley

I had the same issues when I first started Field coming from similar unmarked background, dont think 28 targets but imagine it as 112 targets, if I sometimes make a bad shot on a fixed position Field shot I turn away from the target clear my head and then approach it mentally as a brand new shot, in theory you should be doing this on every arrow but sometimes physically turning away helps resets that focus.


----------



## Arcus

itbeso said:


> Once you have set your pre draw sequence, look at your target and start your draw from the position(looking down upon your bow) that you preset everything. Draw as you raise the bow and continue drawing low across the nipple area of your chest( kind of like what I used to call a girly draw. Sorry ladies.) until you have reached full draw, then raise your hand up to your face and set your anchor.


You mean like this? (Mark Applegate - yellow shirt)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga625aJFCTc&feature=player_embedded


----------



## itbeso

Arcus said:


> You mean like this? (Mark Applegate - yellow shirt)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga625aJFCTc&feature=player_embedded


Arcus, marks' draw is the example that I used as what not to do. He is raising his bow, doing a short pre aim, then drawing his bow on a high, straight plane. I'll have to have a talk with him, I consider Mark a good friend and good person as well as being one heck of an archer.


----------



## Sanford

itbeso said:


> You know whether you are shooting well or not.Shooting for score in practice,in my opinion, is not beneficial for the following reasons.First, practice is for developing good form and shooting habits. If you are thinking about score on every arrow, you usually are not concentrating on the things that will bring you a good score. Secondly, most of us shoot better in our back yards than we do in competition and shooting a great score with no one around has no meaning, except to drag you down when you do go to a competition. See if this rings a bell, you shoot your best score ever in a practice session and the go to a tournament a few days later. Instead of concentrating on good shooting mechanics, all you can think of is "i shot so and so the other day, I've got to shoot that today" and the next thing you know your shooting goes to heck because you are totally focused on the wrong thing. And, heaven forbid, that you told friends what you shot, then you just increased the pressure on yourself 5 fold. My best scores, historically, have come after good practices concentrating on mechanics and aiming technique without scoring any arrows. In that respect, your brain knows you are shooting well and will help. In the other scenario , Your brain can be your worst enemy due to expectations


I take scores irregularly for my own personal goal check and to increase a bit of pressure to shoot under. Outside of that, scoring means math, math means thinking and comparing against other numbers - thinking about math is a sure fire way to not think about the shot. Same here, a scoring round is a separate day from from a practice round and a competition round, if can help myself to do that.


----------



## itbeso

zestycj7 said:


> Ben,
> Thank you for taking the time to share this info with everyone, if ppl were to take the time and really work on thier draw and anchor the way you suggest they would be able to see the increase in thier scores over night.
> I know the few small tricks that Gary showed me one day brought my game up alot.
> Thank you again for sharing just a small bit of your vast knowlage with the rest of us.
> Don.


Don, thank you for the kind words. I'm looking forward to shooting with the so-cal bunch.


----------



## Bender

Went and took a look. Turns out that I already "naturally" hook up to the string with fingers angled down. But not so steep as 30 deg. Maybe more like 15-20 deg. 

? for you though itbeso.
I would like to talk more about this draw style and back tension thing though. I admit to drawing on a plane, not starting low as you advocate. It sounds to me though that with your style you're looking to begin developing back tension early in the draw, rather than adding it in later, after anchor. I'll darned if I recall where I got it from, but I believe that back tension is developed through out the draw. Its my "philosophy" on the subject, and its how I shoot, and one of my form "goals" during a shot. "Got back tension?" My take on it is either you got it or you don't. You build it during the shot. Just not digging the idea of throwing it in later as if it were an after thought. What's your take on it?

I gotta agree, experience has shown me that scoring on my practice is a recipe for disaster for me. Actually I often find that I shoot rather "poorly" during during practice. Only to then shoot really well at the actual tournament.


----------



## itbeso

Bender said:


> Went and took a look. Turns out that I already "naturally" hook up to the string with fingers angled down. But not so steep as 30 deg. Maybe more like 15-20 deg.
> 
> ? for you though itbeso.
> I would like to talk more about this draw style and back tension thing though. I admit to drawing on a plane, not starting low as you advocate. It sounds to me though that with your style you're looking to begin developing back tension early in the draw, rather than adding it in later, after anchor. I'll darned if I recall where I got it from, but I believe that back tension is developed through out the draw. Its my "philosophy" on the subject, and its how I shoot, and one of my form "goals" during a shot. "Got back tension?" My take on it is either you got it or you don't. You build it during the shot. Just not digging the idea of throwing it in later as if it were an after thought. What's your take on it?
> 
> I gotta agree, experience has shown me that scoring on my practice is a recipe for disaster for me. Actually I often find that I shoot rather "poorly" during during practice. Only to then shoot really well at the actual tournament.


Bender, the draw that I advocate is rather new to me(in the last year) and I feel that it makes me hold back tension much better than I ever have. The first week I tried it, I could feel that I had back muscles for the first time ever, if you know what I mean.:teeth: I was always so strong that I primarily used my arms and shoulders to pull my bows. I can feel the muscles engaging early in the draw and when I hit anchor, It feels to me like they are locked in place, metaphorically speaking. The lower draw across the chest is the method that I am referring to. I agree with your concept of developing back tension as you draw, although I'm sure some physiology major could debunk our theory. Thanks for your input.


----------



## wtpops

itbeso said:


> There are a lot of small things I try to teach fellow finger shooters and I'm sure most of you out there have your own little "secrets". I hope you can share a few of those with the board. I am going to start with 2 of my most basic suggestions. 1) When shooting three fingers under, always place your fingers on the string at about a 30 degree angle with your finger tips pointed downward. This will make your first finger joints more in line, you will get off the string smoother, and most importantly, you will reduce your string twist to next to nothing.


Man this site is great, itbeso i wish i was close enough to shake you hand. I just went out and gave this a try and i feels so natural, my anchor is so much more stable. You just washed away 20 years of frustration. Now i have always been a decent shot but this is going to help me be so much more consistent. Thank you. Did about 20 min of blank bale with the new string grip tip and here is my first three arrows. It all just felt so good.










Heres how i have grabed the string for all my life, and how i will grab it for the rest of my life thanks again.


----------



## itbeso

wtpops said:


> Man this site is great, itbeso i wish i was close enough to shake you hand. I just went out and gave this a try and i feels so natural, my anchor is so much more stable. You just washed away 20 years of frustration. Now i have always been a decent shot but this is going to help me be so much more consistent. Thank you. Did about 20 min of blank bale with the new string grip tip and here is my first three arrows. It all just felt so good.


I feel as good as if I had shot them myself.:thumbs_up


----------



## Bender

"Locked in." Absolutely fascinating. A friend and I have been discussing this very exact thing. We both feel that if you attain that feeling it will almoast invariably turn out to be a well executed shot. At the same though we have found that once you get there, any alterations in your aim require huge amounts of effort. If you wind up locked in on the wrong the wrong hold, it will be an awesome shot, perfectly executed. The arrow will exactly, unerringly where you're aiming. Too bad its a miss. In such circumstances a let down is probably the only right thing to do.


----------



## itbeso

wtpops said:


> Man this site is great, itbeso i wish i was close enough to shake you hand. I just went out and gave this a try and i feels so natural, my anchor is so much more stable. You just washed away 20 years of frustration. Now i have always been a decent shot but this is going to help me be so much more consistent. Thank you. Did about 20 min of blank bale with the new string grip tip and here is my first three arrows. It all just felt so good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres how i have grabed the string for all my life, and how i will grab it for the rest of my life thanks again.


Wtpops, I'm going to have to learn how to post pictures. Your illustrations were as good as it gets in showing what I was trying to explain. Thanks and good luck in your shooting.


----------



## BLACK WOLF

wtpops said:


> Man this site is great, itbeso i wish i was close enough to shake you hand. I just went out and gave this a try and i feels so natural, my anchor is so much more stable. You just washed away 20 years of frustration. Now i have always been a decent shot but this is going to help me be so much more consistent. Thank you. Did about 20 min of blank bale with the new string grip tip and here is my first three arrows. It all just felt so good.
> 
> Heres how i have grabed the string for all my life, and how i will grab it for the rest of my life thanks again.


I agree. This site definitely ROCKS! :thumbs_up

I'm curious...I would love to see a side profile comparison of you while at full draw with your old technique and new technique. Could you take a few pics for of that?

Thanks

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso

The other good thing about the angled finger placement is that it makes your anchor fit on your face better. I cup my thumb and index finger around the back of my jaw bone as my anchor and put the tip of my index finger in the corner of my mouth. Anchor is such an individual thing that it is useless to say this way or that way is the best way.


----------



## Bebe

Well today was special... I grabbed my recurve and a quiver full of arrows, a scissor and a bunch of tabs I've collected through the years and headed off to the archery range.

10 yards blank bale working on some new elements. After cobbling the tabs I was very aware of my finger placement on the string when I set both my bow hand and string hand. I'm still deciding if I'll go with my cavalier tab minus the aluminum plate, or just go with a run of the mill calf hair tab. 

The low draw is starting to feel more mine and less foreign. I notice that it allows me to get more inside on my alignment which feels more bone on bone and more stable. 

I changed my breathing a couple weeks ago and thats been the hardest to integrate into my shot, but it is finally beginning to feel natural.  Did most of my work at 10 yards and then moved out to 20 yards on a large face to increase distractions. All in all it was a good day at the range. I accomplished the things I wanted to get done and I'm looking forward to adopting and implementing these new elements. Thanks guys !


----------



## itbeso

The angle of the head at full draw is very important to barebow shooters. I should say, keeping the angle of the head the same shot after shot is very important. After anchoring I tilt my head forward and touch my nose to my fletching. This slight contact allows me to make sure That I am looking at my gaps from the same angle on every arrow. I refer to it as a double anchor. If you don't keep your head at the same angle to the arrow on each shot, you will shoot high and low arrows no matter how well you execute the shot. I have a friend who leans his head until his eyebrows contact the string. What i'm suggesting is that you should use some method of assuring your head position is the same on every arrow. Barebow can be very accurate if we utilize all the little nuances that assure repetition of our shot.


----------



## Greysides

itbeso said:


> Wtpops, I'm going to have to learn how to post pictures. Your illustrations were as good as it gets in showing what I was trying to explain.


Two ways, from your computer or from the Internet with the URL address of the image required.

Computer sourced: 

From the 'Quick Reply' box, click on '*Go Advanced*' (under the bottom right corner). Then scroll down to under the new reply box to *Attachments* and click on 'Manage Attachments'. 
It offers the chance to upload and attach different file types to your post. These include PDFs, word documents but also JPEGs and PNGs which are the image files.
The 'File Upload Manager' is now open. You will see files previously uploaded to the forum but on the far right of the top line (1.) you will see an '*Add File*' button you have to press. It will open a box with '*Browse*' on it and above that have the word Website underlined.
Click on 'Browse' and navigate through your computer to find the image you want to show.
(Clicking on Website open a box looking for the we address of the required file- I'll come back to that)
Locate file and click on 'Upload'.
The file will be uploaded and listed with the others previously there but will also be seen in thumbprint in the bottom box with a tick on it, as it's intended to be included in your post. 
Click 'Done' in the bottom right corner of the screen.
That page will close and under your reply box, at 'Attachments' you will see the file listed. It will appear with your post when you post it.

URL address: 

Every image on the internet has an address. Pick one of the images on the screen and right-click on it. It opens an options box with the choice to 'Copy Image Location'.
This is the images URL address. 
At the top of the Reply Box, you have different icons. If you click on the one of a framed picture it opens a box that has two tabs.
The prior selected one is 'From Computer' and has Browse available in it. Treat that the same as the attachment selection done above.
Choose the other tab 'From URL' and you need to paste in the address URL of the image. Already ticked is 'Retrieve remote file and reference locally'. I find images load better if you un-tick that.
Click done when finished.

That would be used to post a picture from a Google search or another website when you've already copied the image location.

To use this with your own pictures you need to find a web hosting serviced you can upload them to. This process will give them a URL address you can then use for the forum.
I use Imageshack, which is free to a limited number of images (large enough not to worry about), and then use their 'Direct Link to Image' location in the URL address slot.
Tinyurl and photobucket are other sites you can use.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer

Wow, this is amazing stuff.

ITBESO,

Pretty much everything you have posted is how I already draw and anchor. BUT I had to figure this out on my own by shooting THOuSANDS of arrows. Wish you had posted this months ago,LOL. But by doing all of this my shooting is as good as it has ever been, as I shoot around 60# currently, and primarily hunt, and target shoot only to harness my hunting skills. Now that you have posted this, you have defined it well, and will allow me to tweak a few things to further improve. THANKS!


----------



## itbeso

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Wow, this is amazing stuff.
> 
> ITBESO,
> 
> Pretty much everything you have posted is how I already draw and anchor. BUT I had to figure this out on my own by shooting THOuSANDS of arrows. Wish you had posted this months ago,LOL. But by doing all of this my shooting is as good as it has ever been, as I shoot around 60# currently, and primarily hunt, and target shoot only to harness my hunting skills. Now that you have posted this, you have defined it well, and will allow me to tweak a few things to further improve. THANKS!


Urban, target shooting or hunting, the goal is the same and that is to put the arrow where you want it to gf course, in hunting we have to have other skills that will make us complete. Sounds like you are doing well in your journey, may it be a long one. Sharing information seems to be a natural occurence among archers and that's one of the many things I like about the people in our sport. Thanks for posting.


----------



## itbeso

Greysides said:


> Two ways, from your computer or from the Internet with the URL address of the image required.
> 
> Computer sourced:
> 
> From the 'Quick Reply' box, click on '*Go Advanced*' (under the bottom right corner). Then scroll down to under the new reply box to *Attachments* and click on 'Manage Attachments'.
> It offers the chance to upload and attach different file types to your post. These include PDFs, word documents but also JPEGs and PNGs which are the image files.
> The 'File Upload Manager' is now open. You will see files previously uploaded to the forum but on the far right of the top line (1.) you will see an '*Add File*' button you have to press. It will open a box with '*Browse*' on it and above that have the word Website underlined.
> Click on 'Browse' and navigate through your computer to find the image you want to show.
> (Clicking on Website open a box looking for the we address of the required file- I'll come back to that)
> Locate file and click on 'Upload'.
> The file will be uploaded and listed with the others previously there but will also be seen in thumbprint in the bottom box with a tick on it, as it's intended to be included in your post.
> Click 'Done' in the bottom right corner of the screen.
> That page will close and under your reply box, at 'Attachments' you will see the file listed. It will appear with your post when you post it.
> 
> URL address:
> 
> Every image on the internet has an address. Pick one of the images on the screen and right-click on it. It opens an options box with the choice to 'Copy Image Location'.
> This is the images URL address.
> At the top of the Reply Box, you have different icons. If you click on the one of a framed picture it opens a box that has two tabs.
> The prior selected one is 'From Computer' and has Browse available in it. Treat that the same as the attachment selection done above.
> Choose the other tab 'From URL' and you need to paste in the address URL of the image. Already ticked is 'Retrieve remote file and reference locally'. I find images load better if you un-tick that.
> Click done when finished.
> 
> That would be used to post a picture from a Google search or another website when you've already copied the image location.
> 
> To use this with your own pictures you need to find a web hosting serviced you can upload them to. This process will give them a URL address you can then use for the forum.
> I use Imageshack, which is free to a limited number of images (large enough not to worry about), and then use their 'Direct Link to Image' location in the URL address slot.
> Tinyurl and photobucket are other sites you can use.


Grey, Thank you for the information. I will try to make the best of it I can. Maybe I can get into the 21st century. Again I much appreciate you taking time to help me.


----------



## Greysides

itbeso said:


> Again I much appreciate you taking time to help me.


What goes around, comes around.


----------



## Festivus

This is a good post. I have been doing it ass backwards for the longest time. It always felt a little more comfortable and natural to have my fingers angled down but I thought that I would get a cleaner more consistent release with them perpendicular to the string. Exactly opposite of how it is described and pictured here. Live and learn. Good thing I can go back to a more comfortable string hand position now.


----------



## Festivus

A series of photos or a short clip will help a lot in understanding this type of draw that is described. Sounds interesting and great for practice or targets. Need to practice it in hunting practice situations to see if it will be useful to me out in the field.


----------



## itbeso

Festivus said:


> A series of photos or a short clip will help a lot in understanding this type of draw that is described. Sounds interesting and great for practice or targets. Need to practice it in hunting practice situations to see if it will be useful to me out in the field.


Festivus, Hope to post pictures one of these days but I think you will find this draw sequence much better for hunting also as it keeps your hand and arm close to your body the whole time. Much more compact movement, less movement for an animal to see.


----------



## tpcowfish

Thanks for all the imfo, This is the type of thread i look for, and need for my new found passion. Thanks for starting it, Itbeso, Much appreciated !


----------



## itbeso

The release has been a much talked about subject on this forum over past years and, like the anchor, it is a subject of individual preference, but I am going to state my case for the dead or semi dead release. Again, this application is for barebow shooters who anchor on the face as it is almost impossible to have a dead release anchoring under the chin as olympic archers do. My anchor and release follows this pattern. I draw to anchor, cupping my thumb and index finger around the back of my jawbone and placing the tip of my index finger in the corner of my mouth. As i aim, I start to expand my draw before the shot and let the string explode from my fingers keeping my hand tight on my face. This release always served me well shooting compounds, however There has been a slight modification shooting my recurve. I have noticed that upon release of the string with a recurve, there is a slight backward movement of my hand on my face of approximately 1". To me, it is imperative that you keep the hand on the face after release. I find that if I don't, i will enevitably shoot right arrows. The more the hand moves away from the face , the more right the arrow will go for me. Expanding the draw should not be done by trying to draw farther. Try inhaling fully and as you draw, let out about half that air. As you aim and get ready for the shot, start to expand your chest by inhaling again, this will expand your draw without you trying to move your arms. I see many barebow finger shooters consciously opening their fingers to let go of the string. This usually leads to following the string with your fingers rather than exploding away from the string upon release . Have a friend watch your release to see if your hand goes forward slightly upon release. If so, try expanding just prior to letting go of the string, I think you will start getting much cleaner arrows coming out of the bow.


----------



## centershot

Good tips here, I've been having issues with constant head tilting also - would like to hear more on this issue.


----------



## itbeso

centershot said:


> Good tips here, I've been having issues with constant head tilting also - would like to hear more on this issue.


Center, not sure what you question is.


----------



## centershot

itbeso, with your index finger at the corner of you mouth, how large is your gap at 20 yards? I've tried index at corner which works good and feels solid but leaves about a 2' gap at 20 yards - pretty big for indoors. I have also tried middle finger to corner of mouth - this shrinks the gaps by about a foot at 20 yards. I guess the real question is do you use the same anchor and deal with the gap or do you change up to shoot a closer point on indoors. Thanks.


----------



## centershot

itbeso said:


> Center, not sure what you question is.


Oh, I have a lot of questions! - This thread is exactly what I have been needing. I have the basics down but need some help to work to the next level. There are only a hand full of Trad shooters in my area and non of them are any good - so I'm on my own searching for answers. 

I was wondering what methods folks are using to keep the head tilt consistant. I know the inconsistancy costs me a few points, but I have not really brought it to the top and worked on head position specifically. I have tried the nose to feather thing, but have never really liked it. I don't draw deep enough for the eyebrow/string to touch - maybe I need to make some changes to get one of these to work.


----------



## itbeso

centershot said:


> itbeso, with your index finger at the corner of you mouth, how large is your gap at 20 yards? I've tried index at corner which works good and feels solid but leaves about a 2' gap at 20 yards - pretty big for indoors. I have also tried middle finger to corner of mouth - this shrinks the gaps by about a foot at 20 yards. I guess the real question is do you use the same anchor and deal with the gap or do you change up to shoot a closer point on indoors. Thanks.


Center, I have always used the index finger in the corner of my mouth but that isn't a solution for everyone. I know gary2413 uses middle finger in corner of mouth which tightens up his gaps considerably. Where you anchor is an individual thing and whatever feels the most comfortable and works best with your aiming system is the key. As far as gaps at 20 yards, that will be determined by your point on. The further the point on, the wider the gap at 20 yards. I see that you are gapping at the bale, have you tried gapping at the arrow? When you put the tip of your arrow on your point 2' under the spot, try looking at the distance between the tip and the spot as if the spot was directly over the tip of your arrow rather than 20 yards away. This should give you a gap in a fraction of an inch.


----------



## itbeso

centershot said:


> Oh, I have a lot of questions! - This thread is exactly what I have been needing. I have the basics down but need some help to work to the next level. There are only a hand full of Trad shooters in my area and non of them are any good - so I'm on my own searching for answers.
> 
> I was wondering what methods folks are using to keep the head tilt consistant. I know the inconsistancy costs me a few points, but I have not really brought it to the top and worked on head position specifically. I have tried the nose to feather thing, but have never really liked it. I don't draw deep enough for the eyebrow/string to touch - maybe I need to make some changes to get one of these to work.


Center, The one thing I like about leaning the head forward and touching the fletching with my nose is that it is a repetitive second anchor and it serves to bring my point on distance down by a few yards, which makes my shorter gaps tighter.


----------



## Matt_Potter

Center - I shoot bale parallel to a wall and on the wall I have a line drawn from the floor to the ceiling perpendicular to where I am standing. I'll look at the line and concentrate on having my body straight up and down and split by the line - I envision the line running straight down my nose through my crotch to the floor then I rotate my head to the bale and draw my string back to my face - I use the same anchor as ITBESO with the eye brow being my second anchor.

Matt


----------



## centershot

Thanks guys - I shoot with (or at least try to) the classical "T" shape stance, head up - draw the string to my face. I don't draw deep enough to touch my eyebrow with the string - beyond the end of my nose but not so far as the eyebrow. I do know that tipping of the head forward slightly will reduce gaps substantially, but I also know that I really have to pay attention or I get vertical stringing. Finding a 'second' anchor sounds like a good solution to keeping consistant - I'll give that some attention next time at the range. I've been shooting both index and middle finger at the corner of my mouth - both have merrit and scores are about the same, but having the gap smaller is much better for my confidence. I can check that small gap and know if I execute the rest of my shot that the arrow is right in there. But, it does not feel as comfortable as my index finger anchor - always things to work on, and now I have more things to work on I didn't even know about an hour ago.


----------



## steve morley

Amazing the amount of people here using string on the eyebrow


----------



## itbeso

steve morley said:


> View attachment 1508539
> 
> 
> Amazing the amount of people here using string on the eyebrow


As long as you utilize a second reference point in your anchor I feel you will be way ahead in being consistent in your grouping. It is also important to remember the feel of that 2nd reference point so that you keep the head tilt the same. Leaning too hard or too soft is going to change your head position. Thanks Steve for the photo.


----------



## BarneySlayer

Funny. I gravitated to angled fingers just because it felt easier, and I believe in laziness wherever possible  It makes sense, though. String torque is additional tension, energy that is not put into moving the arrow forward.

Really good time on making sure the nock pressure/location is consistent. All this time I was blaming my draw length or, in the case of wood, arrow weight variation. one more thing to make a good habit!


----------



## Matt_Potter

Here is a vid of Steve using that eye brow second anchor - I might have watched this a time or 200


----------



## itbeso

centershot said:


> Oh, I have a lot of questions! - This thread is exactly what I have been needing. I have the basics down but need some help to work to the next level. There are only a hand full of Trad shooters in my area and non of them are any good - so I'm on my own searching for answers.
> 
> I was wondering what methods folks are using to keep the head tilt consistant. I know the inconsistancy costs me a few points, but I have not really brought it to the top and worked on head position specifically. I have tried the nose to feather thing, but have never really liked it. I don't draw deep enough for the eyebrow/string to touch - maybe I need to make some changes to get one of these to work.[/QUOTE Center, you don't have to increase your draw length to utilize a second reference point, the key is leaning your head into the string.


----------



## jusoldave

THIS is a GREAT thread!

As I've said before, I (1) don't really know what I'm doing, but I've been doing it a long time; (2) don't have (have never had) a coach; (3) don't really gap - just use the arrow tip as a reference; and (4) shoot gloved/split finger.

Regardless, I went out this morning and incorporated some of what I'm seeing in this thread (deeper hook; angled fingers; second anchor)... and tightened my groups by at least an inch at 20.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer

centershot said:


> Oh, I was wondering what methods folks are using to keep the head tilt consistant. I know the inconsistancy costs me a few points, but I have not really brought it to the top and worked on head position specifically. I have tried the nose to feather thing, but have never really liked it. I don't draw deep enough for the eyebrow/string to touch - maybe I need to make some changes to get one of these to work.


Although I am no expert, I have been using the string to eyebrow for a few months. I now have 3 levels at which I anchor. This is what I do:

1) cup my thumb/index finger groove in my hand to the back of my jaw bone under my ear. I do not put a finger to the mouth area, as my finger doesnt reach far forward enough when I draw back this far.
2) Pull the string until it touches my eyebrow. I started to do this as I noticed I was short drawing, this is a check for me ensuring that I come to full draw.
3) Tilt my head touching my nose to the feather. This puts my head tilt in a consistent, repeatable position. For me, this works best when I fletch with Right Wing feathers with alot of helical, then I rotate the nock until the fletchings are where they best touch my nose and clear the shelf. BTW I shoot right handed.

This has brought my shooting to a new level. I am no longer spraying arrows all over the target and the groups are becoming more consistent. I'm not ready for the pro's but have alot more confidence to put a lung shot on a whitetail out to 20-25 yds. 

This has been a great thread to fine tune a few things for me. Now to work on the release.


----------



## Greysides

> Now to work on the release.


IMO, you can't work directly on your release. It's a consequence.

It's a consequence of how you set up the back-tension beforehand and how it's triggered.


----------



## itbeso

Greysides said:


> IMO, you can't work directly on your release. It's a consequence.
> 
> It's a consequence of how you set up the back-tension beforehand and how it's triggered.


I agree with Grey on this. A good explosive release is the by-product of doing all the other things right. If you are thinking about releasing the string instead of aiming you are doing it wrong. Please try this.After drawing, anchoring, and aiming to the point where you would like to release the arrow, try leaning back against the string(so to speak) , after a few arrows this should enable you to release without thinking of releasing which is the ideal way of shooting the arrow.


----------



## Sanford

Agree with above, the release is a consequence of the proper factors set up to make it work correctly. The trigger gets a bit tricky and hard to describe unless you are a clicker shooter, but the idea is to remove yourself and your influences from the act to make it clean and precise. Expansion control with focus on back tension at release is key for my clean release.


----------



## BLACK WOLF

I personally view the follow through/conclusion as the consequence of the release because a good release requires a simultanous action of good back tension and relaxation of the hand.

I believe an archer should work on timing. Eventually an archer should only think about increasing back tension rather than thinking about both the hand and back.

Once I get to anchor I'm focusing on aiming and than I shift my priority to increasing back tension as I relax my fingers on the string.

If an archer doesn't learn to time the increase in back tension with the relaxing of the fingers...the archer risks changing their draw length and producing inconsistentcies, IMO.

The only time an archer does not need to work on timing with the increasing of back tension with the relaxation of the hand is with a dead/static release...which is a release I do NOT recommend trying.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford

Ray, for me, back tension isn't an act, it is a final destination leading up to expansion and release. My final draw length is at that anchor position where the load is transferred to that back tension hold. From there, it is but a few millimeters of increase though expansion to release. If I still had enough movement to change any degree of more draw length, I would actually be operating in an incomplete anchor position to start the release. A proper set clicker position will break that habit quick. I think back tension is defined differently in different disciplines of archery, adding to different descriptions of use, depending.


----------



## Matt_Potter

If you read the Heretic Archer Vittoro recommends setting you back tension and triggering the clicker with a push towards the target with you bow shoulder - not bow hand but your shoulder. 

Matt


----------



## BLACK WOLF

Sanford said:


> Ray, for me, back tension isn't an act, it is a final destination leading up to expansion and release. I think back tension is defined differently in different disciplines of archery, adding to different descriptions of use, depending.


I agree. As long as the archer understands it in their own way...I think it's good.

Just for personal clarification...I see increasing back tension as an action...not a destination...and I see conclusion/follow through as the destination of a reaction to a well executed release.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford

Matt, finding that last tiny bit to set off a clicker is difficult, that is, and to retain control and balance in forces. Push/pull is accommodated by some, but when I try, i might get more push than pull or more pull than push each time. Others, not so.

I can see the forward movement of the bow shoulder, too. For me, chest expansion works cuz it works from the middle - breathing comes to play here. I vacillate on method. Sometimes, it is all inhalation to release. Sometimes, it is a large inhale and slight exhale and breath hold. The continued inhalation tends to cause me more inconsistency issues cuz I tend to vary the expansion to extreme at times, throwing my form out a bit. It's a battle of methods with me at times.


----------



## Matt_Potter

Sanford

I don't use a clicker my trigger is the increasing pressure of the string on my eyebrow - I just keep pulling until my fingers come off the string. 

Matt


----------



## Sanford

Ray, the reason it can be described as a destination is why you often hear of back tension maintenance when increased back tension is described. There's really almost zero movement left, but the position is maintained by increasing tension to prevent creep at release. IOW, there should never be a danger of pulling too far and getting inconsistent results unless you break form and get into some overdraw situation. The maintenance, or increasing tension, help offset any creep by always pulling opposite the release even as the fingers are relaxing the hold.


----------



## Sanford

Matt_Potter said:


> Sanford
> 
> I don't use a clicker my trigger is the increasing pressure of the string on my eyebrow - I just keep pulling until my fingers come off the string.
> 
> Matt


I don't always either. My trigger for non-sighted is my sight picture. Not.a mechanical trigger I can relegate the task to but passive enough, though, if not careful, can lead to rushing the release very easily. I work at adding a count in practice.


----------



## BarneySlayer

I think I got confused. I like the pushing the bow forward via the shoulder, and pulling via the back tension, though I think of it as pushing the bow/arrow alignment straight at the target, and pulling the string straight back, like I want to elongate the arrow along the path I want it to go. If my everything, that isn't necessary is relaxed, including my string hand (only enough tension to hold the string), during the expansion something sets off the release. I don't know if it's the sight picture, or if the relaxation of the hand is just gradual until the string slips just a little then WEEE!, but it seems to work best for me too that way.

Plus, when striving for that full expansion/tension/push/pull, whatever you want to call it, it becomes really hard to overdraw, because doing so would require activation of the muscles I don't want to use anyway, and it requires, it seems to me, WAY more effort. It's like, once you get where you're supposed to be, your body has a natural 'wall' of sorts.


----------



## BLACK WOLF

Sanford said:


> Ray, the reason it can be described as a destination is why you often hear of back tension maintenance when increased back tension is described.


The ONLY way I see it as a destination is when it's a part of someone's shot sequence as in going from anchor to increasing back tension.

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso

In starting this thread, I was hoping to get different archers to post their own little "secrets to their own shooting success". I was hoping to avoid all arguments and just let people post and let the readers decide which, if any, of the suggestions they would like to try. That is why I have not commented on any idea or method that I don't necessarily agree with. I'm hoping that you, the readers and posters, will take the time to try any suggestion that catches your fancy. I am now going to post one of my own release idiosyncryses. I don't follow the thought that you should relax your fingers to get a good release. Just the opposite for my shooting, I tighten my fingers on the string when I am ready to make my shot. Just that thought as I am aiming makes my fingers open and close so fast that it almost like a spring working. Never let your fingers open slowly so that eventually the string slips off your finger tips. That one action will cause target panic faster than anything I know. It also creates a sense of lack of control of the string and is a major reason for plucking the string. The feeling I get upon release is that I am tightening my fingers at the moment of release which seems to make the fingers come right back to the same position when the string is gone. Almost like the feeling of a piece of spring steel. I know it sounds counter to everything most people think but give it a try. You might get a surprise.Feedback after trying would be appreciated.


----------



## steve morley

You can focus on release (Just not while shooting tourney or aiming) Here is a clip I took of Coach Kim teaching the release and working it into the expansion stage as well, I suggest using an old trainer bow for this, Coach Kim has a very hands on teaching method and makes it really easy to understand the feeling of release, expansion and followthrough, I hope this helps.


For me I imagine my fingers as a hinge, as I moving my elbow further behind my head the hinge is automatically released, this visualization helps set the timing between expansion and the release and I have the confidence to let the release just happen without ever needing to think about it.

Itbeso I tried your finger placement (more of an angle than I would ever use) I can see how it works so well, for me it seems to take the load off the ring finger and makes the release much smoother, great tip :thumbs_up I havent tried split finger for Longbow yet, will it work also for Split?


----------



## BLACK WOLF

steve morley said:


> You can focus on release (Just not while shooting tourner or aiming) Here is a segment of Coach Kim teaching the release and working it into the expansion stage as well, I suggest using an old trainer bow for this, Coach Kim has a very hands on teaching method and makes it really easy to understand the feeling of release, expansion and followthrough hope, I this helps


That's pretty much exactly how I practice working on my release.

Love that video!

Ray :shade:


----------



## itbeso

steve morley said:


> You can focus on release (Just not while shooting tourner or aiming) Here is a segment of Coach Kim teaching the release and working it into the expansion stage as well, I suggest using an old trainer bow for this, Coach Kim has a very hands on teaching method and makes it really easy to understand the feeling of release, expansion and followthrough hope, I this helps[/QUOTE: Steve, I recognize that guy, he used to follow me around at the Nfaa nationals back in the eighties taking notes.OMG. Seriously, if you notice what he is teaching is the same thing I have posted in this thread. Do not pull your hand away from your face upon release, do keep the hand sliding along your face on a dynamic or semi-dead release, do not let the fingers open on an outward motion. Good video. Thanks


----------



## BLACK WOLF

itbeso said:


> I was hoping to avoid all arguments and just let people post and let the readers decide which, if any, of the suggestions they would like to try.


I really don't see there being any 'disruptive' arguements. What I see happening are different points of view or different ways of understanding how to do something being explained. 

I think it's important that these types of discussions exist in a thread like this...because it can help in communication purposes...where an archer may not initially understand it one way...but when they hear it from a different perspective...it finally clicks for them.

Ray :shade:


----------



## steve morley

Performance Archery has around 30 videos with some good info on key form elements like back tension etc, good for people with no access to a Coach. It is for Target but some elements of Draw, back tension, release etc all releate to what we do in the Trad world,


----------



## Sanford

BarneySlayer said:


> Plus, when striving for that full expansion/tension/push/pull, whatever you want to call it, it becomes really hard to overdraw, because doing so would require activation of the muscles I don't want to use anyway, and it requires, it seems to me, WAY more effort. It's like, once you get where you're supposed to be, your body has a natural 'wall' of sorts.


Yes, spot on. That would be the difference in describing back tension as using the back muscles to pull and hold a bow- or, in other words, you use many muscles, front and back to pull a bow and the range of motion is anywhere to where you anchor, from the chin to behind your head. Here, one could overdraw, as there is no transfer of load to any specific muscle group - one range of motion is maxed out but another is developed or deployed.

The other "back tension" as coached to me and used, is that when I reach "my" anchor and transfer the load to my back tension to hold, the contraction in the muscles used are held in an almost full contraction, as the shoulder blade is rotated or pulled inward towards the spine as far as can go at that point. This point, or destination, is determined by my anchor location, or draw length. I have created a wall from which to jump start an explosive release.

Increasing tension is what is done, but like against a wall, there is no movement, the muscles just pull harder but still isometrically in contraction. At expansion and release, the sudden release of tension of the bow from that "increasing tension hold" is where the actual release happens as the "snap" of that muscle group takes place as the contraction then allows rapid movement from the static state towards the expansion, inward more of the shoulder blade and further rotation of the draw elbow/arm in a sudden movement.

For me, it is just the difference in describing back tension as a pull or describing back tension as an element of the release, like you would describe your anchor point. That "wall" created is good way of saying it for the latter description.

There is also an element of a "let off" feel when there, too. But that's in alignment of forces at play.


----------



## Sanford

itbeso said:


> Never let your fingers open slowly so that eventually the string slips off your finger tips. That one action will cause target panic faster than anything I know. It also creates a sense of lack of control of the string and is a major reason for plucking the string.


Definitely! Another key point is that is also an aid to "creep", and depending on how you do it each time, varying levels of creep. In other words, from where your string and arrow nock started, it is crept forward, slides a good bit before it is released. The key to a consistently clean release is in getting off the string as it is being released but with keeping the string in the same position each time - releasing without allowing inconsistent drop or creeping forward of the string as you release.


----------



## BarneySlayer

itbeso said:


> try leaning back against the string(so to speak) ,


That's a really good way to describe it!


----------



## BarneySlayer

itbeso said:


> Never let your fingers open slowly so that eventually the string slips off your finger tips. That one action will cause target panic faster than anything I know. It also creates a sense of lack of control of the string and is a major reason for plucking the string. The feeling I get upon release is that I am tightening my fingers at the moment of release which seems to make the fingers come right back to the same position when the string is gone. Almost like the feeling of a piece of spring steel. I know it sounds counter to everything most people think but give it a try. You might get a surprise.Feedback after trying would be appreciated.


Good description. I didn't mean to imply that I would propose slowly opening the hand. Steve's hinge release analogy is more what I was thinking. I really don't know mechanically what activates the release itself in my shooting. I do know that if I think about my fingers on the string, it's prone to screw me up. I've flinched a few times this way, actually catching the string before it completely rolled off. More often, I wouldn't catch it, and I'd just muff the shot. Growing pains However, as I practice more, this happens less.

But, one element that started me on my way to understanding the feel of what a dynamic release feels like is when a coach told me to relax my hand, so that there was just enough tension to keep the string on my fingers. Then, while keeping that tension, just pull a little more. It took a long while to get used to. I understood the idea, but actually letting myself do it was awkward for quite some time, and I wasn't sold, didn't really get it entirely, or whatever.

I don't think I started doing it consistently until fairly recently, when I was shooting some 40 and 50 yard stuff at the local range next to a guy who was setting a good example with his groups, making me want to do the same, and really pay attention. I noticed that there was this one feeling on my string side of my body through my arm and fingers that felt incredibly relaxed through the shot, that seemed to be associated with my arrows going into tighter groups. Comparatively, it felt like the release was soft, like the hinge release steve mentioned, as if the arrow was taking over the launch. Coincidentally, I had just started to experiment with a hinge release on my compound freestyle bow a bit earlier, so maybe that helped.

George Chapman taught me a drill, originally in the context of shooting compounds (I thought he was just talking about maintaining tension through the shot, but that guy just keeps on giving after he's gone), which was to lift your bow arm up so that the index finger simulated a string in front of your face. Then the string fingers can grab that finger as a string, and as you pull, you just pull the fingers off, like the fingers didn't want to let go. It's not a open your fingers and then pull back. It's entirely an unintentional slip, kind of like the beginning of the action movie where the first love interest of the hero dies slipping off the edge of a cliff. Only difference is you relax your hand so that you can let it happen without making more work for yourself than necessary. You can do that drill anywhere you get an edge to grab. I sometimes do it on my stick shift, gently of course. I also do it sometimes standing in line for coffee. Makes a good conversation starter too!


----------



## Bebe

I feel like a kid in a candy store here. I've certainly got an ingrained shot and sequence in place but this is also a great time to try and tweak my shot. I've noticed that when I take hold of the bowstring and get a deep hook I can stay in my shot and not slip out of it as opposed to me relaxing my fingers leading to a creep or mini collapse (finger induced). I also got value from Steve's post of coach Kim, I remember watching it when Steve first posted it after his coaching session with Kim, but I saw more this time and I'm looking forward to trying that release and follow through. While I see where you guys are coming from in regards to release being a "consequence" it still helps to break it down into elements and images that we can tinker with and work on. After I work on that I want to see how close I am to my eyebrow with the string.

But in the spirit of giving as well as taking I want to throw out another simple tip which is "Take your time in between shots". While I'm not a speed shooter I find it useful to take a breath after the shot and another full breath while I'm nocking the arrow. And then start my breathing routine to begin the next shot. Of course breathing get's much needed oxygen to our body, and it also slows us down in order to recover and shoot our next shot. 

This is in lieu of rapid mode where we immediately reach for an arrow and nock it right after we release the arrow. Finishing our 4 or 5 arrow end before the freestyler next to us has shot one of his arrows?


----------



## centershot

Eyebrow anchor question - how long of a bow are you doing this with? I tried again today with a 62" AMO bow and about ripped my nose off! Didn't have to remind me to turn my head for a second shot! Overall that feels really long, my finger no longer is at the corner of my mouth, string blur gets weird - just not too sure about anchoring that far back. I'll try again when I get some time, but for now I think I'll stick with the old method. I do however like the 30 degree angle of the fingers. That seems to give a nice snap to my release and also feels more comfortable at anchor. Great tips, keep them comming!


----------



## Sanford

BarneySlayer said:


> George Chapman taught me a drill, originally in the context of shooting compounds (I thought he was just talking about maintaining tension through the shot, but that guy just keeps on giving after he's gone), which was to lift your bow arm up so that the index finger simulated a string in front of your face. Then the string fingers can grab that finger as a string, and as you pull, you just pull the fingers off, like the fingers didn't want to let go. It's not a open your fingers and then pull back. It's entirely an unintentional slip, kind of like the beginning of the action movie where the first love interest of the hero dies slipping off the edge of a cliff. Only difference is you relax your hand so that you can let it happen without making more work for yourself than necessary. You can do that drill anywhere you get an edge to grab. I sometimes do it on my stick shift, gently of course. I also do it sometimes standing in line for coffee. Makes a good conversation starter too!


That's a good description and drill! For me, it's not the fingers letting go of the string, it is the string pushing the fingers out of the way. An easy post-shot observation is where the fingers are immediately after the release. If open hand, I more than likely dropped or let go of the string - the action was from the fingers. If closed/curled, then the fingers were relaxed and the string just bumped them open but they naturally returned to their original position - the action was from the force of the string.


----------



## BarneySlayer

Liked steve's video. I'm going to try working on the direction of the follow through. Never thought about that before.


----------



## Sanford

BarneySlayer said:


> Liked steve's video. I'm going to try working on the direction of the follow through. Never thought about that before.


There's definitely a consistency factor it adds, and I don't always find myself doing it the same, which means, it's not natural for me as it should be and needs more attention and work. One thing, though, is that some find that the under-chin is a bit different than side of face - I do as well, with under-chin being more along the neck and down to the shoulder. On side of face, I have it more exaggerated, as the direction is more starting higher and from the side. I try to end up with knuckles curled and behind the base of my skull - having to get around my jaw.


----------



## ladOR

wtpops - these photos did it for me. totally understand. Pouring down rain right now but as soon as it slows down some I plan on hitting the back for a shooting spree to work on the string hold. I have used the straight up grip forever. I am 72 and been shooting since a small child. will be back for report.


----------



## Arcus

steve morley said:


> View attachment 1508539
> 
> 
> Amazing the amount of people here using string on the eyebrow



Yeah, but my dang glasses get in the way.


----------



## itbeso

Arcus said:


> Yeah, but my dang glasses get in the way.


Just touching your glasses would be an excellent second reference point.


----------



## TheLongbowShoot

I shoot arrows, not fingers.


----------



## itbeso

TheLongbowShoot said:


> I shoot arrows, not fingers.


Are you related to Hank Thoreau? If not, you are guilty of plagiarism. See post #4.:teeth:


----------



## ArcherFletch

itbeso said:


> Just touching your glasses would be an excellent second reference point.


This is what I do, I also agree with the guy who tried it and blasted his nose lol. I have a big nose and I totally zinged it the first time I tried this leaning forward into a second anchor.


----------



## itbeso

ArcherFletch said:


> This is what I do, I also agree with the guy who tried it and blasted his nose lol. I have a big nose and I totally zinged it the first time I tried this leaning forward into a second anchor.


I hit my nose lightly on every shot with a recurve. I keep a roll of surgical tape with me and put a small piece on every time I shoot. Inexpensive but saves the nose, and with that thin barrier, I never even notice that I hit my nose.


----------



## TheLongbowShoot

itbeso said:


> Are you related to Hank Thoreau? If not, you are guilty of plagiarism. See post #4.:teeth:


Hahahaha brilliant minds think alike! lol


----------



## zdogk9

itbeso said:


> Just touching your glasses would be an excellent second reference point.


It is that!


----------



## itbeso

When putting nocking points on your string, never use brass nock sets. They are big and bulky, they will wear a groove in your tab or glove, and they will torque the arrow if put on snug to the arrow nock, which is exactly how you want your nocksets to be installed. I recommend using dental floss to set your initial nocking point heights. The floss should be snug to the arrow nock when installed. As you shoot arrows, the dental floss will take a set with the arrow at full draw because it is soft and pliable. Keeping the arrow nock captured in this manner is important because extra spacing between the nocksets will result in high and low arrows. If your initial setting is wrong, the dental floss is easy to remove or trim, depending on which way you want the nock height to be. A lot of archers leave space between nocksets because they have been told that the string angle will cause torque on the arrow, and that is the case with brass nocksets, not so with dental floss. Also the soft dental floss is easier on your nose if you happen to hit it when shooting


----------



## zestycj7

Ben,
Do you prefer string or mono for your center serving and why do you prefer one over the either?
Don.


----------



## centershot

Sounds like your an advocate of two nock sets?


----------



## itbeso

zestycj7 said:


> Ben,
> Do you prefer string or mono for your center serving and why do you prefer one over the either?
> Don.


Don, I think that the Halo serving material is the best there is, It is very durable and ,if you wanted to stringwalk, it is easy to count strands. I trhink Halo is a Bcy Product.


----------



## itbeso

centershot said:


> Sounds like your an advocate of two nock sets?


Center, I personally feel that an over and under nockset is one of the most important things we finger shooters must do when setting up our bows. We have covered the reasons why in past threads but it comes down to consistent arrows instead of high and low arrows because of the arrows leaving the string at different locations without the lower nockset to keep it from slipping down upon release.


----------



## centershot

Do you use dental floss for both nock sets or serving thread for the top and floss for the bottom? I have had issues using serving thread for the bottom nock set - it makes too big of a bump that is distracting to me as well as tending to 'thread' its way up the center serving. Wondering if the Floss would be enough to keep the nock in place but not be so big as to interfere with my grip and also not move as easily as the serving thread nock sets. I'll have to try that next time out. We really need to get you up to speed on posting pictures!:teeth: Thanks.


----------



## Long Rifle

centershot, try using a few less wraps on your lower and once it's fine tuned set it in place with a dab of glue. If you need to replace or move a sharp blade angled slightly away from the string will do the job.

itbeso, I wanted to thank you for this advice on finger placement. It made a world of difference in the "cleanliness" of my release and the resulting increase in accuracy is much appreciated as well.....


----------



## ArcherFletch

The problem I always had with using string to set nock point is that it comes un-done unless you glue it (and then its not adjustable)... so I use a brass nock and wind string on top of it to avoid the torque. You can use the brass nock to hold the string in place and if loosened the whole thing can be adjusted


----------



## itbeso

Once you have established where you will place your nock set height, I use #2 serving and tie in my upper nockset using the over-under method of tieing the knots. If you are not familiar with this method I will try to explain. Take the #2 serving string and make two loops instead of one, then pull the knot tight at the point on the string that you have selected for the upper nockset. Pull the string tight then pull it downwards on each side of the bowstring to really make it tight. Take the serving underneath the bowstring and repeat the process in reverse, moving the knot on the topside of the previous knot. Each time, take care to pull the knot so that the double loop is fully pulled out and not bunching up.By using this process, I usually serve up the bowstring about 1/4". After the last double loop knot, tie a single loop and burn the ends of the serving. this will keep the tie in from ever coming loose. I double loop the #2 because it is not very thick and the double seems to be a good diameter for capturing the arrow nock.When I am sure of my nock height I use the same method for the lower nockset because the diameter of the tied nockset is small enough not to put any torque on you arrow. And did I say that I feel the two nocksets should be snug to the arrow nock. I usually nock my arrow when done, then take the arrowoff the rest, If the arrow will angle down 60% or more, you are snug but not too tight. In lieu of using the #2 serving on the lower nock set, Many times i will use just dental floss because of the soft nature of the material. I just wind and tie knots in that scenario , again, I burn the ends after the last knot. The dental floss is actually my favorite way to tie in the lower nockset, however it does require replacing more often due to wear from the tab or glove. I recommend not using glue on it as you want it to be soft enough to take a set at full draw and also, if you do hit your nose it will be a lot easier on it if the nockset is not hard from the glue.


----------



## kegan

I want to just thank you guys for this thread. This is, as others have said, the best part of AT: Experienced shooters giving their opinions and findings for those of us who don't have access to experienced shooters. Thanks a bunch guys!!!


----------



## Greysides

Once a nock set is 'fit for purpose' how it's done doesn't matter.

Here are two ways of tying nocksets. 

The first way works well with dental floss.


----------



## Greysides

Second one, the one I use, using Brownell #4 nylon serving. I finish it by melting the short ends the knot and tapping the melted ends onto the nockset.

Done loose it can be twisted up and down on the serving until the NH is set, then glued to the serving. You do have to be careful with a flame and the serving.


----------



## centershot

Thanks, I've used the granny over, granny under (second one in your pics) for both in the past, but the first one with floss looks like the ticket for a lower nock set. Will have to give that a try. Great thread, sure is nice to get back to a helpful thread instead of fighting over aiming styles.


----------



## itbeso

Greysides said:


> Second one, the one I use, using Brownell #4 nylon serving. I finish it by melting the short ends the knot and tapping the melted ends onto the nockset.
> 
> Done loose it can be twisted up and down on the serving until the NH is set, then glued to the serving. You do have to be careful with a flame and the serving.


Grey, great illustrations.I envy you artistic guys. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Easykeeper

I use the half-square knot technique too (Greysides second illustration) for both top and bottom nock point. Only difference is I don't glue the nock sets to the serving in case I want to move it. Once I find the right spot I just tie a small tight knot above the top one and below the bottom to keep them in place.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer

I feel compelled to post yet again. I put all of this to work this morning for a brief shooting session. I am amazed at the results. Previous to this thread, I would change my bow setups and think that maybe one bow or the other was shooting better. That is not the case, it is definitely the archer. By following this thread, I am doing the same thing each and everytime I draw, maintaining consistency and thereby improving my accuracy. The below picture is my first set of arrows at 25 yds, after maybe 10 warm up shots at shorter distances. I got a nice group except for the one on the right. I knew right away the release was off on that one, and the snap of the string was louder, from a not so clean release. However, this is a huge improvement, and by cleaning up my release I should be stacking them up in know time. Keep this thread rolling, at this pace I'll be shooting with the pros in no time!! LOL!:wink: 










ITBESO, thanks again for a unique thread, with a new perspective and to all of you for a good clean discussion on improving your technique!


----------



## Matt_Potter

Single biggest thing you can do to clean up your release is increase your back tension - nice shooting 

Matt


----------



## Logos

Interesting.

Although I shoot split, my fingers took the angle Itbeso recommends quite naturally.....in fact, it would be difficult to do it any other way.

Maybe that's why my shooting is going so well?

I think I've been lucky with archery, as a lot of the techniques just happen and don't have to be pondered. I suppose some of it comes from body and brain remembering all the shooting I did as a teenager (which I just did naturally and without coaching).

Sometimes just doing it is the best way to do it.

:thumb:


----------



## AngelDeVille

I just shoot 1 under, deep hook.


----------



## guyver

Here is a crude illustration of how I tie my nock points, if you can get just the right amount of tension it is adjustable but will not move unless you twist it. 







Finished product


----------



## itbeso

AngelDeVille said:


> I just shoot 1 under, deep hook.


Angel, nothing wrong with that as long as you can handle it. A good friend of mine, Jesse Morehead, won the ASA classic championship with 1 finger under. One of the best freestyle limited shooters ever, Bob Gentry, also used the 1 finger under release.


----------



## BarneySlayer

My guess is that AngelDeVille is talking about a really fat finger.


----------



## Maxbks

guyver said:


> Here is a crude illustration of how I tie my nock points, if you can get just the right amount of tension it is adjustable but will not move unless you twist it.
> View attachment 1511007
> 
> Finished product
> View attachment 1511011


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8EghWvyUcA
This is the link for a video of that knot. If this dosen't work(never put a url link on here before) it is under ManaoProductions in u-tube. This has been a great thread, gave me a lot to look at and work on. Keep up the good work guys. Max


----------



## BLACK WOLF

BarneySlayer said:


> My guess is that AngelDeVille is talking about a really fat finger.


If I remember correctly, I think Angel uses a thumb release.

Ray :shade:


----------



## AngelDeVille

BLACK WOLF said:


> If I remember correctly, I think Angel uses a thumb release.
> 
> Ray :shade:



Bingo! :darkbeer:


----------



## BarneySlayer

BLACK WOLF said:


> If I remember correctly, I think Angel uses a thumb release.
> 
> Ray :shade:


What I was trying to say, less effectively


----------



## ladOR

I will say the angled fingers with 3 under is the cats meow. I have shot both split and three under for many years. Never heard the tip of angled three under. I am on it and hooked. thanks for the tip. especially the photo easy to read so to speak. enjoy.


----------



## itbeso

This has nothing to do with actually shooting. I was out in the garage tonight putting some field tips in long indoor arrows when I remembered some posting on another thread about tips coming loose. Some things we just take for granted as we put together archery setups but does everyone out there know that by scraping your field point threads over your string wax, then screwing them in will ensure they won't come out just by shooting them? The wax acts as a friction agent against unscrewing yet you can unscrew them easily if you need to change out.


----------



## tpcowfish

Really like the squeeze, hinge type release suggested by IT earlier, Although i'm still working on getting it ingrained,when i get it right, seems to be very accurate, and you can feel the difference in the no pluck, drag or whatever you will call it,on the string, like a magical feeling seeing the arrow find it's mark, unhindered by my release hand, if that makes sense, Tnx


----------



## BarneySlayer

itbeso said:


> This has nothing to do with actually shooting. I was out in the garage tonight putting some field tips in long indoor arrows when I remembered some posting on another thread about tips coming loose. Some things we just take for granted as we put together archery setups but does everyone out there know that by scraping your field point threads over your string wax, then screwing them in will ensure they won't come out just by shooting them? The wax acts as a friction agent against unscrewing yet you can unscrew them easily if you need to change out.


I do that when I remember, and I eventually get to it. Do you scrape the wax on the threads themselves? I've just been putting it where the point meets the edge of the insert. Seems to work alright, but the threads too may be better?


----------



## wv hoyt man

Great tips guys.


----------



## itbeso

BarneySlayer said:


> I do that when I remember, and I eventually get to it. Do you scrape the wax on the threads themselves? I've just been putting it where the point meets the edge of the insert. Seems to work alright, but the threads too may be better?


Barney, I just scrape it on the threads personally. It has always worked well for me, same with my broadheads though If I;m lucky, there is just one shot involved there.:teeth:


----------



## FORESTGUMP

TheLongbowShoot said:


> I shoot arrows, not fingers.




LOL,fingers aint all that some of these guys shoot. Some get so cozy with a bowstring that they shoot their own nose off. But, only if all the form is perfect I think.
I like your style,you don't seem to shoot fingers or nose.


----------



## Logos

> ...shoot their own nose off...


I've been smiling at those that shoot their nose. I never have that problem. Yes, I do believe that must take a perfection of form that I have not yet achieved. 

Still I press on toward that elusive perfection.


----------



## ladOR

must say it again. spent a couple hours out back with new recurve that came in on the Big Brown Truck today. 30 degree angle 3 under hold has made me a better shooter. thanks archers for the suggestion.


----------



## BLACK WOLF

For those of you who are shooting with the new angled grip on the string...I would love to see some side profile pics of you at anchor showing your entire upper body and arms with both grips on the string to do a comparison.

I would like to see if there is any change in arm alignment..especially regarding the draw elbow.

My guess is that by changing the finger angle on the string...'some' of you may also be experiencing a higher draw arm elbow.

Ray :shade:


----------



## steve morley

I have tried the finger position and the impression I get is that a lot of pressure is taken off the third ring finger allowing for a cleaner release, hitting the nose is either big nose or some people have a slight tilt of the head trying to get right over the arrow, to me its a form/aiming compromise rather than an actual form error.

Ive managed to learn not to hit my nose, (I never have issues with split finger) a good thing really as it can get to -30C in the winter and I dont want to be picking my nose up off the ground, I have enough problems looking for fingers.ukey:


----------



## Logos

Is there a list of these "Top Ten" anywhere?

:noidea:


----------



## ArcherFletch

*Shot a pretty good group the other day!*

OK I tried to use all these tips to work on my release. Previously my technique had me shooting to the right most every time (except when I tried to correct by aiming left, in which case it went exactly where I looked) I think this was from "plucking" or not having the right back tension. 

I went out to about 100yd+ to really focus on the left/right aspect of the shot. This is a great place to shoot because you can play with different elevations and it catches all your missed arrows. 








OK so I was pretty pleased with the results... now got any tips on ranging up/down?


----------



## BLACK WOLF

ArcherFletch said:


> OK so I was pretty pleased with the results... now got any tips on ranging up/down?


What current aiming technique are you using?

If you're not using Point of Aim at those longer distances. I would highly suggest you learn it.

Ray :shade:


----------



## ArcherFletch

I don't know but I will look it up. I have read about "gapping" and I don't think I like that, because how do you focus on the target and the arrow at the same time... I have tried it looking back and forth between them and it was difficult and confusing. I know there are lots of threads about "instinctive" and what it means but I really just want to look at the target and hit it. The anchoring point and the back-tension tip at least got them going in the right direction. I have read that "string-walking" can get you really accurate results at different long ranges - but it sounds like it's only for advanced archers and I'm pretty new (obviously from the picture)

The wife told me I cant buy any more bows until I can hit the target :embara:


----------



## centershot

100 yards is a long shot for sure, at 50 I can use my launcher arm bisecting the arrow and put that intersection on the spot I want to hit - works great, almost like a sight. At 100 I'd be clear under the shelf - may have to switch up my anchor position (face walk) for those long ones.


----------



## BarneySlayer

Just aim a little farther 

At 100 yards, I think instinctive is pretty much out of the manufacturer's recommendations.... Ray's talking about pick a point above the target, put your arrow tip on it, and let fly. I know that if I'm shooting at 100 yards, I can't even see the target. My hand blocks it from my view. I sometimes vary that by lining up the riser, or my hand, and the intersection of the shaft, on such a point, particularly if the point that works is plain blue sky.


----------



## itbeso

That target kinda reminds me of Lee Van Cleef in one of Eastwoods' spaghetti westerns where he stood just out of range of clints revolver .:teeth I , for one, feel that you shot a good group of arrows at 100 yards. It's easy to move a group, not so easy to move arrows splattered everywhere.


----------



## BLACK WOLF

BarneySlayer said:


> Ray's talking about pick a point above the target, put your arrow tip on it, and let fly.


:thumbs_up

It's pretty easy to do...IF...an archer has trees, bushes or rocks that can be seen above the target...BUT...if it's just blue sky...it makes it kind of hard to pick a secondary target to place your arrow tip on :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## BarneySlayer

itbeso said:


> That target kinda reminds me of Lee Van Cleef in one of Eastwoods' spaghetti westerns where he stood just out of range of clints revolver .:teeth:


That was a great movie. Or, at least I remember it being great. GB&U was one of my all time favorites. Remember the name?


----------



## itbeso

BarneySlayer said:


> That was a great movie. Or, at least I remember it being great. GB&U was one of my all time favorites. Remember the name?


It had to be Fistful of Dollars or For a few dollars more. I've only seen each like a hundred times.lol


----------



## itbeso

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> It's pretty easy to do...IF...an archer has trees, bushes or rocks that can be seen above the target...BUT...if it's just blue sky...it makes it kind of hard to pick a secondary target to place your arrow tip on :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Or, anchor low and shoot 70 pounds and be point on at 100 yards like someone else I know.:teeth:


----------



## BLACK WOLF

itbeso said:


> Or, anchor low and shoot 70 pounds and be point on at 100 yards like someone else I know.:teeth:


LOL...yep...that will work too :thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## ArcherFletch

thank you for the tips! I was wondering if my 40lb setup is too light - the reason they all grouped up like that is that I thought they were hitting the target, they looked like they were flying through the air right towards it but then I kinda lost sight of it. They must have been dropping like rocks in the last 20 yd or so. I will try that point of aim, thanks for the explanation!


----------



## rsarns

My point on is 48 yards with a 42# recurve and high anchor (320 gr arrrows), my shelf (ILF bow) is 75 yards. If I hold my shelf on the X ring, and look at where my arrow tip is, then move my shelf to that spot... its 101 yards. Shooting long distances is about finding a reference point that works for your setup. You also have to keep both eyes open to be able to "see trough" the arrow for left/right aiming. Good luck!


----------



## BarneySlayer

rsarns said:


> My point on is 48 yards with a 42# recurve and high anchor (320 gr arrrows), my shelf (ILF bow) is 75 yards. If I hold my shelf on the X ring, and look at where my arrow tip is, then move my shelf to that spot... its 101 yards. Shooting long distances is about finding a reference point that works for your setup. You also have to keep both eyes open to be able to "see trough" the arrow for left/right aiming. Good luck!


Ah, smart! I should try the shelf/point/shelf trick, and see what that gets me! Must perfect it in time for redding!


----------



## BLACK WOLF

ArcherFletch said:


> I was wondering if my 40lb setup is too light


It's definitely not to light with the right arrow unless you're shooting a really poor performing bow.



ArcherFletch said:


> They must have been dropping like rocks in the last 20 yd or so.


I can definitely relate to that. I know my arrows really seem to drop going from my POD of 100yrds. to trying to hit a target at 150yrds.

If I had to measure ny reference point at the target at 150yrds. my secondary aiming reference would be about 25' to 30' above the target.

I primarily gap at the bow so in those terms it was like holding the arrow tip about 6" or 7" above the target.

Ray :shade:


----------



## rsarns

BarneySlayer said:


> Ah, smart! I should try the shelf/point/shelf trick, and see what that gets me! Must perfect it in time for redding!


I practice all the Redding distances and find a reference for each of them....


----------



## BLACK WOLF

rsarns said:


> I practice all the Redding distances and find a reference for each of them....



Smart archer :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## BarneySlayer

rsarns said:


> I practice all the Redding distances and find a reference for each of them....


Is there a handy list of the Redding distances? Or is it just 5' to 110 yards, or something like that?


----------



## itbeso

BarneySlayer said:


> Is there a handy list of the Redding distances? Or is it just 5' to 110 yards, or something like that?


On their website, straight arrow archers


----------



## BarneySlayer

itbeso said:


> On their website, straight arrow archers


Thank you itbeso...

BTW, being in San Jose, if you know Ben Rogers, please tell him 'Thanks', both for doing the state 900 round, but also, a few years ago, helping my kids through that event, especially my youngest who lost too many arrows to finish the round, and probably lost interest slightly before that 

If you don't know Ben Rogers, never mind.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer

Keep this thread alive, it should be a Sticky! My shooting has improved immensely with these tips. Although I am still no pro, being a Trad Novice of 8 months or so I am doing THIS more often (see pics below)

This first one is cold walk back shooting after getting home from work and no warm up shots, 4 arrows walked back from 15 to 30 yds. I am doing this much more consistently.










And my tree stand shooting is really getting better, I think this one is about 15 yds. Problem is I can't get any big bucks to walk in front of my arrow! 3 spikes under 18 yds last week and couldn't shoot em!










Itbeso, YOU ROCK! From the fingers on the string, to the draw, to the anchor and release, this thread has fine tuned my shot AND I am finally at that point when I KNOW everything feels just right before I release, if not I let it down (before I just used to fling it anyway), and if a shot goes wrong I KNOW what I did incorrectly and fix it. This thread is a TRAD hunters source of invaluable tips and techniques, THANKS!


----------



## itbeso

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Keep this thread alive, it should be a Sticky! My shooting has improved immensely with these tips. Although I am still no pro, being a Trad Novice of 8 months or so I am doing THIS more often (see pics below)
> 
> This first one is cold walk back shooting after getting home from work and no warm up shots, 4 arrows walked back from 15 to 30 yds. I am doing this much more consistently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And my tree stand shooting is really getting better, I think this one is about 15 yds. Problem is I can't get any big bucks to walk in front of my arrow! 3 spikes under 18 yds last week and couldn't shoot em!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Itbeso, YOU ROCK! From the fingers on the string, to the draw, to the anchor and release, this thread has fine tuned my shot AND I am finally at that point when I KNOW everything feels just right before I release, if not I let it down (before I just used to fling it anyway), and if a shot goes wrong I KNOW what I did incorrectly and fix it. This thread is a TRAD hunters source of invaluable tips and techniques, THANKS!


On the contrary Urban, you guys ROCK. Just seeing the pictures posted so far and and listening to the comments, makes for feel good days. If a person gets a chance to help even one fellow archer improve their game, it is a good life. Fortunately, the internet gives us the venue to share what knowledge and experiences we have acquired through the years. This is a great sport and I, among many others here, am happy for a medium like AT to share and compare our ideas.


----------



## centershot

Matt_Potter said:


> Some one asked for some images on the finger angle thing - I have a few more computer skills than our resident dinosaur so thought I would post some up.
> 
> I adress the string with my fingers at this angle
> 
> View attachment 1506932
> 
> 
> View attachment 1506933
> 
> 
> Here is a shot of how the string sits on my fingers with out a tab
> 
> View attachment 1506934
> 
> 
> The tab on the right I am breaking in once they get broke in I trim them like the tab on the left
> 
> View attachment 1506935
> 
> 
> For you guys who don't know him - ITBESO's name is Ben Rodgers - I met him at US fita nationals - I was on the practice line with Allan Eagleton and there was this Old guy down the line from us just laying them in there - I asked Allan "who is that Old guy" his response was "Ben Rodgers - he can shoot" Ben proceeded to kick Allan's and my but all over the unmarked range that day. We had dinner that night and I learned a ton - Ben might be a little rough around the edges but, he is extremely knowledgeable in a very broad spectrum of archery and always willing to help. If I have questions or issues Ben is one of the first guys I go to and when he makes suggestions about gear or form I am all ears.
> 
> The stuff he is showing us isn't the only way to do it but, it is well worth serious consideration - Ben can and does walk the walk from indoors to field to hunting he has been there and done that - possibly because he is older than dirt.
> 
> Matt


Matt, Looking at the pics it looks like you take a very deep hook. I have always thought that the first joint from the end of your fingers is considered the proper place for the string? I have been having some issues with keeping my finger tension (the way I have been doing it) consistant. I would like to hear some thoughts on just how deep a hook is best. Thanks.


----------



## Greysides

Centreshot, I have tried from the first joint back to the second joint. This would be as put on the string. The string will roll as you draw and it will tend to find it's own 'level'.

The alignment of joint creases in the first three fingers varies with people so one persons ideal location may well not be suitable for the next person.

The angle your forearm is at when you anchor is an individual thing and to a degree the string position in the fingers will be influenced by it.

Like an anchor, it's one of those things that while you can get guidance/starting position for you have to find what's best for yourself by trial and error.

For me, the bottom line is that the string does not go in front of the first joint.

Try a deeper hook it may help you relax your forearm more.

After reading Itbeso's grip hint, I use that position now. My string was ending up there any way, now it gets there quicker. 

IMO.


----------



## Matt_Potter

Center - like Aidan said it is what works for me when i am shooting well i am a very slow deliberate shooter the deep hook just seems more secure as much in the mental sense as the physical. 

string goes in the second joint of the index finger and the first of the middle finger. Until it figured this hook out I was torquing the crap out of the string. The only advice I can give is work it out on the bale you shoot some high 300 round scores so you most have good repeatable form get on the bale and figure out what works for you. As Aidan said it will also effect your anchor and hight of your elbow. 

Matt


----------



## BLACK WOLF

Greysides said:


> Centreshot, I have tried from the first joint back to the second joint. This would be as put on the string. The string will roll as you draw and it will tend to find it's own 'level'.
> 
> The alignment of joint creases in the first three fingers varies with people so one persons ideal location may well not be suitable for the next person.
> 
> The angle your forearm is at when you anchor is an individual thing and to a degree the string position in the fingers will be influenced by it.
> 
> Like an anchor, it's one of those things that while you can get guidance/starting position for you have to find what's best for yourself by trial and error.
> 
> For me, the bottom line is that the string does not go in front of the first joint.
> 
> Try a deeper hook it may help you relax your forearm more.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## Festivus

If someone is shooting split fingers how do the fingers line up? I'm sure it is in the general angle shown for 3 unders but is it more or less of an angle since the top finger can come into contact with the top of the arrow. A picture would help. Thanks. 

I always felt that too much ring finger pressure on the string is detrimental to accuracy.


----------



## BLACK WOLF

Festivus said:


> If someone is shooting split fingers how do the fingers line up?


I basically shoot with my fingers perpendicular to the string.



Festivus said:


> I always felt that too much ring finger pressure on the string is detrimental to accuracy.


I had a friend watch me shoot this year because my ring finger would occasionally slip off the string while I held anchor.

I finally realized that I basically shoot with the top 2 fingers and my ring finger is barely on the string.

When I tried gripping the string more with my ring finger it felt TERRIBLE with TERRIBLE results.

I think an archer needs to just try different things until it feels right and/or produces the results they're after.

Just look at this thread as an example when archers share their techniques and what happens when others try them.

Ray :shade:


----------



## bowcycle

How do you guys have enough tab length to angle your fingers?
Here's a pic of me holding a string. The string is really pushing on my middle finger knuckle when I draw my bow.
I use Bateman 2-finger medium tabs normally, but definitely need something else to make this work. My release consistency is enough better with the angle that I want to go this direction, but can't with my current tabs.
[obviously this is my kid's bow, I just needed a way to pull on the string and take a pic at the same time.]


----------



## itbeso

bowcycle said:


> How do you guys have enough tab length to angle your fingers?
> Here's a pic of me holding a string. The string is really pushing on my middle finger knuckle when I draw my bow.
> I use Bateman 2-finger medium tabs normally, but definitely need something else to make this work. My release consistency is enough better with the angle that I want to go this direction, but can't with my current tabs.
> [obviously this is my kid's bow, I just needed a way to pull on the string and take a pic at the same time.]
> View attachment 1517313


Bow, have Earl or bubba send you a large and trim it if you have to. It looks to me that a large would be perfect for you. Also, realize that is not your regular bow, but always use an upper and lower nockset for best results. JMO


----------



## bowcycle

I may tie in a low nock on my son's string. I do use upper and lower on mine and my wife's bows.

The medium is a little too wide as is. I trim about .5" off the tab and would trim the base if I could, but that's where the stitching is. I would go to a small on the width, but the length would be hopeless. Maybe they'll be willing to do something custom for me. Or maybe one of you knows a custom tab builder?
I don't have access to the materials overseas or I'd do it myself.


----------



## Double S

Sticky time!.


----------



## bowcycle

Do you think they sticky threads to intentionally kill the conversation?


----------



## nixwasa

bowcycle said:


> Do you think they sticky threads to intentionally kill the conversation?


LOL, a good day always starts with a nice conspiracy theory!

I spent last friday night/saturday morning reading this tread and I was really excited to go to the local archery range and try the new/improved techniques I learned from this tread... But, when I got to the range the door was locked (inside range only because its usually cold as fudge up here in the north). I waited around for awhile but no other members showed up and really bummed I went back home. Later that evening after a glass of whiskey I had the brilliant idea to turn my apartment hallway in to a shooting range with my bathroom as a shooting "platform". I packed a cardboard box with newspapers and started shooting at my new "range"... I can't really say if my shooting has improved because it was kinda hard thinking about shooting form in a bathroom that is so small i had to have one leg in the tub and the other on the floor. Besides, my endeavor was not really appreciated by my fiance or two golden retrievers, they took turns barking at me so to speak...

Thanks for a great tread guys and maybe I can keep it alive with some pics when I finally get to shooting...


----------



## Long Rifle

LOL! No sir, they sticky great threads like this one if you're lucky to keep them quickly at hand. Tons of valuable information here that like many of the basics, needs to be retrieved occasionally. Ordinarily I'd just add them to my favorites but a sticky does that for me. AT Trad Forum lives on my tool bar and now two clicks of the mouse takes me to this thread. I've already referred back several times as I try to incorporate some of itbeso's advice into my daily range time. I've seen a respectable jump, not only in the cleanliness of my release but the tightening of my longer range groups as well. 'Preciate it!


----------



## bowcycle

Long Rifle said:


> LOL! No sir, they sticky great threads like this one if you're lucky to keep them quickly at hand.


I've also gone back through it a few times already. Each time I glean something more. However, the conversation was hot for a while, then it got sticky'd and nothing for a few days. Just makes you think.


----------



## itbeso

Gentlemen and ladies, I was injured for a while and had more time to post. I have healed up enough to try practicing again, but will post more soon. I would like others to post their own shooting gems regardless of shooting ability or experience. I have found over the years that I have picked up valuable info just by listening to those around me. If i think it has merit, I will go home and try it. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes not but it is surprising what you can learn from the least suspected sources. I've got a feeling that some on here don't post because they may feel intimidated. Post away, this is an excellent idea exchange.


----------



## Greysides

For discussion then, and to knock on the head the 'sticky kiss-of-death curse':

Sorry for the size of the picture and the lack of definition. It's needs the size to have a chance to read the script.

These are an amalgam of pictures, mainly from an Aussie forum that are intended to show errors in hand placement.

The picture of the palm with the black spot shows where the correct position of the pressure point should be. 

The line of the knuckles should be 45 degrees, the thumb pointing towards the target. There should be no contact of the palm with the grip finger-side of the lifeline of the palm.

Pressure above or below this point will change the flight of the arrow and the impact point, in height.

(And is part of a threesome that includes tiller and nock height.)

'Heeling the bow' sends the arrow high. So a constant grip pressure point is needed. The hand relaxes more consistently so a comfortable relaxed hand position is the objective.

Grips can be high/low/medium/extra low and these move the point slightly. They are available to tailor the comfort of the wrist angle to an individuals preference.

High and low wrist positions each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

The middle picture, upper row reads 'Back of hand more vertical which has rotated wrist and cleared heel of hand from grip'.

The second picture from the left on the lower row reads 'Back of hand pointing left and the wrist vertical causing heel of hand to contact grip'.

The blue script in the bottom right corner reads 'Heel of hand causing pressure point'.

With the pressure taken on the correct point of the palm it is transmitted straight back along the radius, ultimately to be borne by the shoulder girdle.

It also is intended to prevent torquing the bow. This is a pressure build up between the hand and the grip that is not noticeable while the string is held.

But on release the torque manifests itself and the bow untwists sending the arrow off to one side.


----------



## centershot

nixwasa, now that is dedication!


----------



## Matt_Potter

You can also shape your grip to help you place your hand and advoid that awful slipping feeling at full draw.

Here is a shot of my grip - Keep in mind I am a lefty 









I the grip is a Jager low best grip that I have ground lower and filled the gap where the web of my hand sets. If you look at the proper grip in the lower left corner of Aidan's picture you will see the gap I am talking about by filling it I keep my thumb in the proper position and make it so my grip doesn't slip at all when wet. You should be able to grease your grip with vasoline and shoot with no feeling of slipage.

I filled the gap with plumbers putty which is super easy to work with

Here is a shot of my hand in the grip 









At draw my hand sits a little deeper in the grip 

Matt


----------



## bowcycle

Matt, can you take a side shot of your grip?


----------



## itbeso

One of probably many things that I have overlooked addressing is the importance of knowing your point on and checking it out every day prior to practicing. Whether you are gapping or "instinctively" shooting, the first thing you should do before practice or tournaments is to make sure your point on really is point on for that day. Realizing that your anchor is your rear sight so to speak, it is almost impossible to go back to what you did yesterday without a few arrows to make sure you are exactly in the right spot at anchor. Once the anchor is reestablished for the day then all other gaps and instincts should fall into place. If you stop and think about it, the distance the arrow nock is from your eye creates the angle that you are using to aim your arrow. An 1/8" difference there will make a big difference 40 yards downrange. Same with lateral placement of anchor, pushing too tight against your face will impact your arrows different laterally at 40 yds than will barely touching your face. These "feels" need to be addressed each day before you begin practicing because they affect the impact point of your arrows at all distances. And, as silly as it may sound, it may be your body changing these things for you. Weight gain or water retention on a day to day basis may cause slight swelling in your cheeks without you even realizing it, making it imperative to go back to basics every day for a few arrows to make sure your point on is where you want it to be. If you need to make a slight adjustment on your rest for that day don't hesitate, just go with the flow. ( And, no, I don't mean fille your shelf or window if you are shooting off the shelf)LOL


----------



## Matt_Potter

bowcycle said:


> Matt, can you take a side shot of your grip?


----------



## centershot

I take care of the 'slipping feeling' I put a strip of grit tape on my grips. Works great.


----------



## David Alford

I don't necessarily agree because there are other ways to be accurate other than having a back release. I acknowledge this is the standard, but there are many ways to get a good release. Arvid Danielson doesn't/didn't use a back release. One of the problems with a back release is that there is a tendency to move the bow arm unless you are really locked in with the correct back tension.


----------



## David Alford

Sorry, that post was meant to address the comment the release can't be worked on directly because of the idea it is a consequence vs. a separate thing that can be adjusted.


----------



## David Alford

itbeso said:


> In starting this thread, I was hoping to get different archers to post their own little "secrets to their own shooting success". I was hoping to avoid all arguments and just let people post and let the readers decide which, if any, of the suggestions they would like to try. That is why I have not commented on any idea or method that I don't necessarily agree with. I'm hoping that you, the readers and posters, will take the time to try any suggestion that catches your fancy. I am now going to post one of my own release idiosyncryses. I don't follow the thought that you should relax your fingers to get a good release. Just the opposite for my shooting, I tighten my fingers on the string when I am ready to make my shot. Just that thought as I am aiming makes my fingers open and close so fast that it almost like a spring working. Never let your fingers open slowly so that eventually the string slips off your finger tips. That one action will cause target panic faster than anything I know. It also creates a sense of lack of control of the string and is a major reason for plucking the string. The feeling I get upon release is that I am tightening my fingers at the moment of release which seems to make the fingers come right back to the same position when the string is gone. Almost like the feeling of a piece of spring steel. I know it sounds counter to everything most people think but give it a try. You might get a surprise.Feedback after trying would be appreciated.


This is one thing I've developed myself. One can focus on just one finger tightening, preferably the middle finger. You have exposed one of my secrets, but I have many more haha.


----------



## David Alford

David Alford said:


> This is one thing I've developed myself. One can focus on just one finger tightening, preferably the middle finger. You have exposed one of my secrets, but I have many more haha.


This reinforces my earlier post above that one can work directly on the release vs. it just being a consequence. Nice out of the box thinking, IT because it certainly goes against accepted wisdom.


----------



## Easykeeper

David Alford said:


> This is one thing I've developed myself. One can focus on just one finger tightening, *preferably the middle finger*. You have exposed one of my secrets, but I have many more haha.


So how does this work? Doesn't tightening your finger "lock" in the string? You said in another post it sounds counter-intuitive...yep. 

Also, when you say focus on the middle finger, are you shooting three under or split finger? I ask because I am in the middle of trying to transition from many years of split finger shooting to three under, and finger pressure is an issue for me. When I shoot split finger my middle finger takes a little more of the weight than the other two. When I shoot three under taking most of the weight on my middle finger seems to exacerbate the noise issue I always have with three under shooting. I have tried to take a little more weight on my index finger (shooting 3U) and it minimizes the noise but also feels a bit unnatural. Holding the most weight with my index finger when shooting 3U also keeps my nocking point in a more realistic position. If I hold the most weight with my middle finger (what I'm used too with split) I have to adjust my nock point _very_ high, in the neighborhood of 1.0" above level to get good bare shaft flight.

Shooting split finger it's just natural to hold the most weight on the my middle finger, not sure if it's the best way to go shooting three under though.


----------



## grantmac

Easykeeper said:


> So how does this work? Doesn't tightening your finger "lock" in the string? You said in another post it sounds counter-intuitive...yep.
> 
> Also, when you say focus on the middle finger, are you shooting three under or split finger? I ask because I am in the middle of trying to transition from many years of split finger shooting to three under, and finger pressure is an issue for me. When I shoot split finger my middle finger takes a little more of the weight than the other two. When I shoot three under taking most of the weight on my middle finger seems to exacerbate the noise issue I always have with three under shooting. I have tried to take a little more weight on my index finger (shooting 3U) and it minimizes the noise but also feels a bit unnatural. Holding the most weight with my index finger when shooting 3U also keeps my nocking point in a more realistic position. If I hold the most weight with my middle finger (what I'm used too with split) I have to adjust my nock point _very_ high, in the neighborhood of 1.0" above level to get good bare shaft flight.
> 
> Shooting split finger it's just natural to hold the most weight on the my middle finger, not sure if it's the best way to go shooting three under though.


If you are shooting off the shelf, then try a stick-on rest about 1" up. If using a rest already, try moving it up.
You are basically dealing with a tiller issue, so unless your bow is adjustable then you will need to work around it.

Conversely look at angling your fingers as shown in the beginning of the thread, that helps too.

-Grant


----------



## David Alford

Easy, yes, I use 3 under for this and draw back with shoulder muscles and hold anchor with shoulder muscles. Then the middle finger tightening/curling backward/moving backward triggers the release almost as if you are pulling a trigger. Hope this helps you. It is another valid release method and I mention this because in the USA almost all the "experts"/teachers/top shooters think releasing with back tension is the only valid way to release. There are actually many valid methods and I certainly acknowledge that back tension is a very good one and certainly proven. Hope this helps.


----------



## David Alford

I should mention I don't use a deep hook with this method. However, the string is not on the very finger tips, either.


----------



## itbeso

Easykeeper said:


> So how does this work? Doesn't tightening your finger "lock" in the string? You said in another post it sounds counter-intuitive...yep.
> 
> Also, when you say focus on the middle finger, are you shooting three under or split finger? I ask because I am in the middle of trying to transition from many years of split finger shooting to three under, and finger pressure is an issue for me. When I shoot split finger my middle finger takes a little more of the weight than the other two. When I shoot three under taking most of the weight on my middle finger seems to exacerbate the noise issue I always have with three under shooting. I have tried to take a little more weight on my index finger (shooting 3U) and it minimizes the noise but also feels a bit unnatural. Holding the most weight with my index finger when shooting 3U also keeps my nocking point in a more realistic position. If I hold the most weight with my middle finger (what I'm used too with split) I have to adjust my nock point _very_ high, in the neighborhood of 1.0" above level to get good bare shaft flight.
> 
> Shooting split finger it's just natural to hold the most weight on the my middle finger, not sure if it's the best way to go shooting three under though.


Easy, I'm probably one of the most screwed up archers on the planet when it comes to doing things like most of the experts say. With that said, I have had a lot of success with my "*******" techniques. In shooting 3 under, I would have to say that I have as much pressure or more on my ring finger. That is where my callus is. As for the tightening of the fingers before release, please give it a try. I have a deep hook on the string and just before starting my draw, i curl my middle and ring fingers tightly around the string. The index finger curls also but not as much as the other two. This grip gives you total control of the string while aiming. When you are aimed and ready, think about tightening you fingers on the string. For me the release goes off and my fingers seem to come right back to their pre release position, almost as if the string had been ripped from my fingers.


----------



## David Alford

Easykeeper, I wanted to avoid a "locking in" feeling so a grip more toward the finger tips seemed to work best for me. So pulling back on the middle finger felt like the string just slipped off. Definitely a different type of release and I was accurate with it. I'm not a tournament archer but a bowhunter and I was looking for a method that would work when my body was kinda' frozen up so I could just use a finger like pulling a trigger. Some of these fly in the face of conventional wisedom. Anyway, try a deep hook with it and see what you might prefer. The one caution is do not hold the string tension with just the fingers, you back should definitely be holding the string pressure and I like to engage it at the beginning of the draw. How you do that is also important, it is a rotational draw as others have well explained (e.g. Jimmy Blackmon's YT videos).


----------



## Easykeeper

Ok, I'm going to try it. It sounds weird to tighten your fingers as the first step to initiate the release, but I know that a slow _relaxation_ leads to a pluck...at least for me. 

Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## David Alford

Yes, plucking should be avoided in the conventional release. The fingers shouldn't open fullly either, just a little as the shoulder expansion pulls the hand back. In my finger curl method the fingers are also pretty much kept in position but the string is pulled off by the curling action or at least that's how I would describe it. IT may be using a slightly different method than me but it sounds very similar. Apparently he's an excellent tournament archer, I'm just a bowhunter who has explored technique a lot. Definitely goes against conventional thinking.


----------



## Taharris66

I've been shooting traditional for 20 years now and just switched to string walking last year. I have been averaging 220's on a NFAA 300 round. About 4 months ago I realized that I had a pretty bad case of target panic from years of snap shooting. I feel I have overcame this because my average has jumped to the 140's. I had noticed that I had already positioned my fingers in the downward position, but not as steep at this sticky suggests. I decided to try the hand positioning this past night at our leagues. I decided to try it without any preconceived notions on whether it would do anything over not. I ended up shooting my personal best for a 360 round of 268. One thing I did also notice is that when I anchored, I didn't always keep my jaw shut the same while I shot. Once I started that, the 5X's started to be more frequent. These are some pretty good tips so far.


----------



## Nordh

This is a great thread but in the interest for quick access to the tips provided by itbeso here's a summary list:

Top Ten (Eleven)



> 1) When shooting three fingers under, always place your fingers on the string at about a 30 degree angle with your finger tips pointed downward. This will make your first finger joints more in line, you will get off the string smoother, and most importantly, you will reduce your string twist to next to nothing. As a test, stand facing a mirror, place your fingers on the string perpendicular as most people do, then pull the bow to anchor and see how much offset you create in the string where your fingers are. As you come to anchor, there is major twisting of the string going on as you fit your hand to your face. Try it again with your fingers angled before you draw.
> 
> Further clarification:
> 
> If you are right handed, place your fingers on your bowstring perpendicular to the string( at a 90% angle to the string). Then rotate your knuckles up so that your fingers will be pointing downward and to your left at about a 30% slant.
> I personally try to angle my finger placement whether shooting split or 3 under. The angle seems less with split because there is an arrow dividing your grip on the string. One thing I should have added to that post is that this approach to positioning your fingers on the string is for barebow applications where we anchor on our face. If anchoring under the chin, such as oly archers do, the hand does not torque the string nearly as much. Also, and this is going to touch a nerve with some, It is imperative that you use a tab that does not have a stiff backing on it . Your tab should be soft and supple to enable your hand and fingers to more easily form to your face at anchor. I recommend soft hair tabs. This, of course, if you are not shooting a glove.





> 2) I think most people know what stringwalking entails:ie. going to different positions on the string for different yardages. Well, I see an overwhelming number of three under shooters stringwalking without even knowing it. Most archers pay next to no attention to detail when they nock their arrow and position their fingers to shoot. I preach putting your fingers on the string about 1 1/2" under your nock and sliding your fingers up until they just make soft contact with the nock, and then practicing doing it that same way everytime so that that pressure becomes engrained in your brain. I also say watch that motion while you are doing it so that it becomes habit.In stringwalking, every twist of your serving could be 1 yard difference. i see fellow archers nocking an arrow then placing their fingers under the nock with no regard to precision. Do this simple test, Place your fingers on the string as i have suggested and shoot an arrow at your point on. Then , jam your fingers up against the bottom of the nock and shoot again. I guarantee you the second arrow will hit high. Your are stringwalking without even knowing it, if you aren't placing your fingers the same everytime.





> 3) In my first post, I talked about the importance of placing your fingers in the same position everytime but it doesn't stop there. I have shown this process to others many times and the first few times they try it, they are careful about the placement. Then they look up at the target, and while looking at the target, tap dance their fingers on the string to get a "comfortable feel". There is no way they haven't changed their finger position slightly, so right back to highs and lows in their groups. Place your fingers on the string, put your hand in the grip and put a little pressure by pulling the string slightly. By doing this, you have locked in your bowhand and made sure your fingers are in the same place you originally put them, from that position, look up at the target, continue to fulldraw and anchor. By doing the same thing everytime, your groups will be much more consistent





> 4) Place your fingers on the string, low of the nock, slowly slide your tab up until it softly touches the arrow, then set your bowhand into the grip and put a little tension against the string so that you don't move the position of your fingers. Once you have set your pre draw sequence, look at your target and start your draw from the position(looking down upon your bow) that you preset everything. Draw as you raise the bow and continue drawing low across the nipple area of your chest( kind of like what I used to call a girly draw. Sorry ladies.) until you have reached full draw, then raise your hand up to your face and set your anchor. You will accomplish two things with this method. First, you will notice that your back muscles engage almost immediately and by the time that you are at full draw they have locked into place and will make it a lot easier to control creeping(back tension). Secondly, you will be able to pull more weight, easier, than you can imagine, because the back muscles are the strongest in the body and you are using them properly.





> 5) The brain is a wonderful thing but it can work against us some times. I am a big advocate of not scoring in practice as I would rather shoot a lot of arrows at fewer yardages each practice session. In other words, when I go to the range to practice, I usually pick out a a few distances and concentrate solely on those that day. I want to get my gaps engrained in my head. The next practice, I will usually pick out different yardages and work on them. You know whether you are shooting well or not.Shooting for score in practice,in my opinion, is not beneficial for the following reasons.First, practice is for developing good form and shooting habits. If you are thinking about score on every arrow, you usually are not concentrating on the things that will bring you a good score. Secondly, most of us shoot better in our back yards than we do in competition and shooting a great score with no one around has no meaning, except to drag you down when you do go to a competition. See if this rings a bell, you shoot your best score ever in a practice session and the go to a tournament a few days later. Instead of concentrating on good shooting mechanics, all you can think of is "i shot so and so the other day, I've got to shoot that today" and the next thing you know your shooting goes to heck because you are totally focused on the wrong thing. And, heaven forbid, that you told friends what you shot, then you just increased the pressure on yourself 5 fold. My best scores, historically, have come after good practices concentrating on mechanics and aiming technique without scoring any arrows. In that respect, your brain knows you are shooting well and will help. In the other scenario , Your brain can be your worst enemy due to expectations.


----------



## Nordh

continued..



> 6) The angle of the head at full draw is very important to barebow shooters. I should say, keeping the angle of the head the same shot after shot is very important. After anchoring I tilt my head forward and touch my nose to my fletching. This slight contact allows me to make sure That I am looking at my gaps from the same angle on every arrow. I refer to it as a double anchor. If you don't keep your head at the same angle to the arrow on each shot, you will shoot high and low arrows no matter how well you execute the shot. I have a friend who leans his head until his eyebrows contact the string. What i'm suggesting is that you should use some method of assuring your head position is the same on every arrow. Barebow can be very accurate if we utilize all the little nuances that assure repetition of our shot.





> 7) The release has been a much talked about subject on this forum over past years and, like the anchor, it is a subject of individual preference, but I am going to state my case for the dead or semi dead release. Again, this application is for barebow shooters who anchor on the face as it is almost impossible to have a dead release anchoring under the chin as olympic archers do. My anchor and release follows this pattern. I draw to anchor, cupping my thumb and index finger around the back of my jawbone and placing the tip of my index finger in the corner of my mouth. As i aim, I start to expand my draw before the shot and let the string explode from my fingers keeping my hand tight on my face. This release always served me well shooting compounds, however There has been a slight modification shooting my recurve. I have noticed that upon release of the string with a recurve, there is a slight backward movement of my hand on my face of approximately 1". To me, it is imperative that you keep the hand on the face after release. I find that if I don't, i will enevitably shoot right arrows. The more the hand moves away from the face , the more right the arrow will go for me. Expanding the draw should not be done by trying to draw farther. Try inhaling fully and as you draw, let out about half that air. As you aim and get ready for the shot, start to expand your chest by inhaling again, this will expand your draw without you trying to move your arms. I see many barebow finger shooters consciously opening their fingers to let go of the string. This usually leads to following the string with your fingers rather than exploding away from the string upon release . Have a friend watch your release to see if your hand goes forward slightly upon release. If so, try expanding just prior to letting go of the string, I think you will start getting much cleaner arrows coming out of the bow.
> 
> Additional comments:
> 
> The one thing I like about leaning the head forward and touching the fletching with my nose is that it is a repetitive second anchor and it serves to bring my point on distance down by a few yards, which makes my shorter gaps tighter.
> As long as you utilize a second reference point in your anchor I feel you will be way ahead in being consistent in your grouping. It is also important to remember the feel of that 2nd reference point so that you keep the head tilt the same. Leaning too hard or too soft is going to change your head position.
> [In regards to wearing glasses] Just touching your glasses would be an excellent second reference point.





> 8) I am now going to post one of my own release idiosyncryses. I don't follow the thought that you should relax your fingers to get a good release. Just the opposite for my shooting, I tighten my fingers on the string when I am ready to make my shot. Just that thought as I am aiming makes my fingers open and close so fast that it almost like a spring working. Never let your fingers open slowly so that eventually the string slips off your finger tips. That one action will cause target panic faster than anything I know. It also creates a sense of lack of control of the string and is a major reason for plucking the string. The feeling I get upon release is that I am tightening my fingers at the moment of release which seems to make the fingers come right back to the same position when the string is gone. Almost like the feeling of a piece of spring steel. I know it sounds counter to everything most people think but give it a try. You might get a surprise.





> 9) When putting nocking points on your string, never use brass nock sets. They are big and bulky, they will wear a groove in your tab or glove, and they will torque the arrow if put on snug to the arrow nock, which is exactly how you want your nocksets to be installed. I recommend using dental floss to set your initial nocking point heights. The floss should be snug to the arrow nock when installed. As you shoot arrows, the dental floss will take a set with the arrow at full draw because it is soft and pliable. Keeping the arrow nock captured in this manner is important because extra spacing between the nocksets will result in high and low arrows. If your initial setting is wrong, the dental floss is easy to remove or trim, depending on which way you want the nock height to be. A lot of archers leave space between nocksets because they have been told that the string angle will cause torque on the arrow, and that is the case with brass nocksets, not so with dental floss. Also the soft dental floss is easier on your nose if you happen to hit it when shooting.
> 
> Additional comments:
> [In regards to using two nock sets] I personally feel that an over and under nockset is one of the most important things we finger shooters must do when setting up our bows. We have covered the reasons why in past threads but it comes down to consistent arrows instead of high and low arrows because of the arrows leaving the string at different locations without the lower nockset to keep it from slipping down upon release.
> Once you have established where you will place your nock set height, I use #2 serving and tie in my upper nockset using the over-under method of tieing the knots. If you are not familiar with this method I will try to explain. Take the #2 serving string and make two loops instead of one, then pull the knot tight at the point on the string that you have selected for the upper nockset. Pull the string tight then pull it downwards on each side of the bowstring to really make it tight. Take the serving underneath the bowstring and repeat the process in reverse, moving the knot on the topside of the previous knot. Each time, take care to pull the knot so that the double loop is fully pulled out and not bunching up.By using this process, I usually serve up the bowstring about 1/4". After the last double loop knot, tie a single loop and burn the ends of the serving. this will keep the tie in from ever coming loose. I double loop the #2 because it is not very thick and the double seems to be a good diameter for capturing the arrow nock.When I am sure of my nock height I use the same method for the lower nockset because the diameter of the tied nockset is small enough not to put any torque on you arrow. And did I say that I feel the two nocksets should be snug to the arrow nock. I usually nock my arrow when done, then take the arrowoff the rest, If the arrow will angle down 60% or more, you are snug but not too tight. In lieu of using the #2 serving on the lower nock set, Many times i will use just dental floss because of the soft nature of the material. I just wind and tie knots in that scenario , again, I burn the ends after the last knot. The dental floss is actually my favorite way to tie in the lower nockset, however it does require replacing more often due to wear from the tab or glove. I recommend not using glue on it as you want it to be soft enough to take a set at full draw and also, if you do hit your nose it will be a lot easier on it if the nockset is not hard from the glue.





> 10) This has nothing to do with actually shooting. I was out in the garage tonight putting some field tips in long indoor arrows when I remembered some posting on another thread about tips coming loose. Some things we just take for granted as we put together archery setups but does everyone out there know that by scraping your field point threads over your string wax, then screwing them in will ensure they won't come out just by shooting them? The wax acts as a friction agent against unscrewing yet you can unscrew them easily if you need to change out.





> 11) One of probably many things that I have overlooked addressing is the importance of knowing your point on and checking it out every day prior to practicing. Whether you are gapping or "instinctively" shooting, the first thing you should do before practice or tournaments is to make sure your point on really is point on for that day. Realizing that your anchor is your rear sight so to speak, it is almost impossible to go back to what you did yesterday without a few arrows to make sure you are exactly in the right spot at anchor. Once the anchor is reestablished for the day then all other gaps and instincts should fall into place. If you stop and think about it, the distance the arrow nock is from your eye creates the angle that you are using to aim your arrow. An 1/8" difference there will make a big difference 40 yards downrange. Same with lateral placement of anchor, pushing too tight against your face will impact your arrows different laterally at 40 yds than will barely touching your face. These "feels" need to be addressed each day before you begin practicing because they affect the impact point of your arrows at all distances. And, as silly as it may sound, it may be your body changing these things for you. Weight gain or water retention on a day to day basis may cause slight swelling in your cheeks without you even realizing it, making it imperative to go back to basics every day for a few arrows to make sure your point on is where you want it to be. If you need to make a slight adjustment on your rest for that day don't hesitate, just go with the flow. ( And, no, I don't mean fille your shelf or window if you are shooting off the shelf)LOL


----------



## itbeso

Nordh said:


> continued..


Nice summary.


----------



## StickBowNJ

Good Post nice info.


----------



## Jasper

Elbow down!


----------



## vabowdog

Great post....I've read it now 4 times from beginning to end...thanks again


Dewayne Martin


----------



## aeasley10

Pretty simple, but I place glove of my middle finger in the corner of my mouth for a consistent anchor....much like my kisser button on my compound.


----------



## 337088

aeasley10 said:


> Pretty simple, but I place glove of my middle finger in the corner of my mouth for a consistent anchor....much like my kisser button on my compound.


Just like Howard hill.


----------



## Brawlman

Matt_Potter said:


> Some one asked for some images on the finger angle thing - I have a few more computer skills than our resident dinosaur so thought I would post some up.
> 
> I adress the string with my fingers at this angle
> 
> View attachment 1506932
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I change the angle of my fingers to this
> 
> View attachment 1506933
> 
> 
> Here is a shot of how the string sits on my fingers with out a tab
> 
> View attachment 1506934
> 
> 
> The tab on the right I am breaking in once they get broke in I trim them like the tab on the left
> 
> View attachment 1506935
> 
> 
> For you guys who don't know him - ITBESO's name is Ben Rodgers - I met him at US fita nationals - I was on the practice line with Allan Eagleton and there was this Old guy down the line from us just laying them in there - I asked Allan "who is that Old guy" his response was "Ben Rodgers - he can shoot" Ben proceeded to kick Allan's and my but all over the unmarked range that day. We had dinner that night and I learned a ton - Ben might be a little rough around the edges but, he is extremely knowledgeable in a very broad spectrum of archery and always willing to help. If I have questions or issues Ben is one of the first guys I go to and when he makes suggestions about gear or form I am all ears.
> 
> The stuff he is showing us isn't the only way to do it but, it is well worth serious consideration - Ben can and does walk the walk from indoors to field to hunting he has been there and done that - possibly because he is older than dirt.
> 
> Matt[/QUOTE
> 
> Matt, Just getting started into "trad" and like the finger tab you're using. Who makes it?
> Looks like only a 2 finger tab. Do you prefer a 2 finger over a 3?]]


----------



## celeric

Just want to post a big THANK YOU to ITBESO for starting this great thread, and to everyone for their contributions. I learned more in one evening here than I learned in years. Thank you all. One tip I have been using which I got from a friend is, when installing field points, instead of using string wax, use plumbers Teflon tape on the threads. You only need a little more than 1 wrap.


----------



## itbeso

Thanks for your contribution.


----------



## Wolfbow

I'm a new archer and have just finished reading this thread from the beginning and I must say after trying the the finger placement and some of the other information found here, I have improved immensely.
I was shooting split finger, but as soon as I switched to 3U my grouping got much smaller. 
I'm still working on the 30 deg down finger tips but it is coming very easy. 
I have a Samic Sage take down bow and will be going to my first 3D contest this weekend. 
I'm having so much fun shooting arrows I don't care how well I do, it's all just a lot of fun for me. 
G.


----------



## DogOfWar

OH itbeso, your going to love this then. I shoot 1 finger over, 2 under when I draw.At max pull I release my index (top) and only use my middle and ring finger to hold. I do, do 2 things that you suggested. I snug my middle finger to the nock and my ring is at a 30 degree angle. I have to drop the index finger at max pull due to nerve damage in my right arm. I guess it's working pretty good for me.


----------



## itbeso

DogOfWar said:


> OH itbeso, your going to love this then. I shoot 1 finger over, 2 under when I draw.At max pull I release my index (top) and only use my middle and ring finger to hold. I do, do 2 things that you suggested. I snug my middle finger to the nock and my ring is at a 30 degree angle. I have to drop the index finger at max pull due to nerve damage in my right arm. I guess it's working pretty good for me.


Dog, A lot of great finger shooters of yore shot exactly as you describe, especially bowhunter class shooters who were required to touch the nock with their index finger. They would just straighten it out and lay it on the nock at full draw. Glad you are shooting well


----------



## oneTone

Itbeso, This thread is one I have read a number of times and all your suggestions have been useful in improving my accuracy ... so, thank you for taking the time to set out the ten points. I have a question regarding the "girlie draw" not having seen many girls draw their bows. I think I have a sense of it from your description (which improves my grouping), but I'm not too sure. Can you add any more details, or is there any outside chance of a video clip? oTo


----------



## itbeso

oneTone said:


> Itbeso, This thread is one I have read a number of times and all your suggestions have been useful in improving my accuracy ... so, thank you for taking the time to set out the ten points. I have a question regarding the "girlie draw" not having seen many girls draw their bows. I think I have a sense of it from your description (which improves my grouping), but I'm not too sure. Can you add any more details, or is there any outside chance of a video clip? oTo


If I can get my granddaughter to teach me how to post a video, I'll try to get one up soon


----------



## oneTone

Thanks, I hope your granddaughter can help out. I also am a senior who is techno-challenged.


----------



## Mr. Roboto

I am hoping this is the appropriate place for this.

I have been wrestling with this 30 degree angle thing all summer long. I just recently found this thread, and I have been trying to do what was described in the Total Archery book by kiSek Lee.

The image below is my tab








The image below is how the sting crosses my fingers when it is most comfortable.








The image below is the string across my tab.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









I have been trying to get a higher angle, but that will either put the string between the two joints on my for finger, or more across tip of my ring finger. I am thinking that this is more of a 10 to 15 degree angle. Is this what is meant by addressing the string at an angle other than having the hand perpendicular to the string?

One thing for sure is that I can not get the string in all three joints at the same time. I have spent weeks trying (according to the description in the Total Archery book), and all that results in is a lot of pain in all of the joints in my hand because I have to keep the fingers curled when I am at full draw. So I have abandoned the technique that is described in the book. I have since been reading this thread, and am wondering if this may be more like what I should be doing?

Pete


----------



## Mr. Roboto

One of the most confusing archery terms I wrestle with is the term "Deep Hook". People will say hook it deep to get a good release and just leave it at that. A search of the internet doesn't provide any precise technical definitions. The way the book Total Archery describes is (as I interpreted it) is very painful to execute.

This past Saturday, one of the level 4 coaches at the range, looked at my form and told me that I need to hook it deep. At that point I got frustrated and asked him to explain what a deep hook was to this idiot. He said it is simple. If someone was standing next to the shooter, they shouldn't be able to see the fingernails at full draw. Then I said, All I have to do is curl my fingers more around the string during the draw, and he said that was basically it. So today I went to the range to give it a try.

Below is an image showing how my fingers were normally gripping the string.








The next image shows what I was doing with my tab.








The next image shows my fingers trying to wrap more around the string during the draw (I still can't get that ring finger to do the wrap/curl)








The final image shows the "deep hook" with my tab.










The one thing I did notice with today's shooting the string popped out of the fingers much easier, and my left right grouping tightened up a bit. I was also Ben's suggestion of setting the hand to the string after setting the bow in the hand. I have also always done it the other way around.

So is this what is meant by a deep hook? or am I still out in left field.


----------



## grantmac

Yes that is a deep hook, but don't get wrapped around the axle trying to hook the ring finger deep since that will cause vertical stringing and possibly some injury. Most texts agree that the ring finger takes a proportionally minimal amount of the weight (10%).

-Grant


----------



## itbeso

grantmac said:


> Yes that is a deep hook, but don't get wrapped around the axle trying to hook the ring finger deep since that will cause vertical stringing and possibly some injury. Most texts agree that the ring finger takes a proportionally minimal amount of the weight (10%).
> 
> -Grant


Agreed.


----------



## oneTone

itbeso, I watched the video on youtube of you helping to bring home the gold. Congratulations! Fine shooting! Just wondering if your bow-draw in that field archery competition was representative of the 'girlie' draw you recommend in your "top ten tips for shooting fingers"? The camera angles for the bare bow archers weren't all that good, but the viewer could get some idea. If so, it was said draw, I will watch it again ... I had to watch the bronze and silver events before the gold, so by the time you were shooting it was very late and I was bleary eyed and something less than sharp witted. Thanks, onetone


----------



## itbeso

oneTone said:


> itbeso, I watched the video on youtube of you helping to bring home the gold. Congratulations! Fine shooting! Just wondering if your bow-draw in that field archery competition was representative of the 'girlie' draw you recommend in your "top ten tips for shooting fingers"? The camera angles for the bare bow archers weren't all that good, but the viewer could get some idea. If so, it was said draw, I will watch it again ... I had to watch the bronze and silver events before the gold, so by the time you were shooting it was very late and I was bleary eyed and something less than sharp witted. Thanks, onetone


No. I forget what to do on a daily basis,but please look at the next time I get on a video. I went back to working on my correct form when I got home.:teeth:


----------



## oneTone

Ok, but I'm not sure I will know when you are on another video ... It was just by chance that I saw the one mentioned above. Anyway it is intriguing that 'drawing up' on the target as contrasted to 'drawing down' on the target makes for better accuracy and tighter grouping. It works for me, but has taken much practice to break my long standing habit of drawing down from above and the lower draw still feels just a tad weird. 

Do you shoot instinctively or do you use some aiming strategy in field archery competitions? I am not sure what you mean when referring to "point on" in your extended discussion of the "ten tips".


----------



## itbeso

oneTone said:


> Ok, but I'm not sure I will know when you are on another video ... It was just by chance that I saw the one mentioned above. Anyway it is intriguing that 'drawing up' on the target as contrasted to 'drawing down' on the target makes for better accuracy and tighter grouping. It works for me, but has taken much practice to break my long standing habit of drawing down from above and the lower draw still feels just a tad weird.
> 
> Do you shoot instinctively or do you use some aiming strategy in field archery competitions? I am not sure what you mean when referring to "point on" in your extended discussion of the "ten tips".


Point on is the distance at which you put the tip of your arrow in the center of the spot and it hits there.


----------



## ebayollis

Tracking


----------



## Huntinsker

Great thread. I've been working on my trad shooting much more this year than in recent years and had some questions about the finer points of the finger release and this thread has really helped to clear them up for me. I'm excited to get out and give these tips a try. Thanks itbeso for the knowledge that you've shared here.


----------



## Kragg

A great thread bumped for newbies like me that might find it useful.

I shot with an angled string hand for the first time during practice tonight (tip 1 post 1 by itbeso), and really like it. It helped to clean up my often plucky release and helped me keep a more relaxed string hand.


----------



## Kragg

In the spirit of this thread, one of the things that has really helped me improve and enjoy my re-entry into archery is keeping an open mind about about different techniques and equipment set ups and being willing to experiment with both.

I'll never fall into the trap of doing something just because "that's the way I've always done" it again.


----------

