# NASP/ASAP/JOAD Transitions



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Hmmm...it seems like part of the problem in the example you gave was that the JOAD program didn't let them shoot a full round using their old style to get a baseline score. Without doing so it is hard to evaluate how they are doing in transitioning to a new style--if, indeed, a new style is warranted.

This isn't specifically an archery issue either. With any sport you risk having to learn different methods when you switch leagues, coaches, dojos, salles, etc. While I can't speak specifically to the NASP-->JOAD transition, I can say that much of the issue you describe had to do with poor communication and expectations management.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob,

Excellent post, as usual.

Competitive archery takes so many forms. Young archers should understand this, and then choose at thier own pace.

John.


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

I'm confused on what's "different" between the different programs. Each program has different focus, but I can't imagine the focus being so different in each program to allow someone to go from one into another and be shocked that they won't come back. 

My focus even in training programs including JOAD programs I've participated or helped run have never been about score. I'm curious why it would be such an important part to any youth archery program because there will always be archers who just want to shoot and don't want to be competitive, but still want an organized environment to learn and become better.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I think I understand the NASP archer's feelings completely. He/she found out that they had spent  years learning to shoot in a style that is only used by old men who still enjoy shooting Fred Bear/traditional style. Interesting and fun, perhaps, but how relevant is the "Bear" style of shooting? Imagine going to a big competition and finding the only people who shoot like you do are the three old men at the far end of the field. And compared to the rest of the shooters? They aren't doing so well.

I can see similarities to side-of-the-face compound release style shooting. However, any youngster who has dreams of being an Olympic archer or just wants to shoot like one, will find they have been ill-prepared. Perhaps even defrauded. Especially when they find out that at the same time other kids have been learning to shoot "Oly" style, and that Olympic-style may actually be better preparation for all the other styles. 

Do the Koreans know Fred Bear?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm not versed in the National Archery in the Schools Program. Can you elucidate on the differences between NASP and JOAD. I know that even JOAD programs can differ, and some start with 3 Under, corner of the mouth anchors and some skip that. Some are teaching BEST and some aren't.

Although I realize that much of the OP would apply to any transition between clubs, or styles I'm curious as to the specifics that applied in the case you use as an example.


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

Forgive me if I'm way off base, but NASP was designed to introduce the sport of archery to school children. There's no competitive tournament component to the program as far as I know right? The same way that summer camps have introduced many children to archery, some of which have taken the next step to go competitive, I feel the NASP does the same.

I remember learning archery in camp and then coming to a range and having someone instruct me slowly about changing some things (like under the chin anchor) slowly and letting me work it out. It's the same approach I take with a lot of people I work with, small incremental changes unless they're ready to start form scratch. Why would any JOAD program take someone new and try to change everything in one session?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

You're not off base. In any effective teaching, single points are driven home until they become second nature.
We have new kids come into our JOAD program on a regular basis and our goal is to make them feel welcome as well as teach the shot cycle. As far as the shot cycle is concerned, if we have a youth who has had prior training,we try to respect what has happened and enhance the shooters technique. Is BEST a part of this? You bet. However, good form is good form. If a kid is an accomplished shooter, working BEST into what he or she does is "around the edges". 
I think there is a tendency out there to call JOAD programs dogmatic. I don't see it in our program and I don't believe it is as prevelent as people think.


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## DRFrance (Feb 4, 2006)

*instructing kids*

Istructing kids can be very rewarding when they experience success and you can see it in their smile when they are having fun.

Sounds like the instructor mentioned in the story where this posting began lost track of his purpose and would rather have everyone shoot like he does, or worse failed to recognize that many of the kids are different and helping them may take a unique approach.

There is not really a one way to do it right. I just hope other coaches are considerate of improving the experience for each of the kids, have fun and learning will occur.

Good luck guiding them.


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm interested to know what the potential JOAD did "wrong". Was it basic form, hook (ex. 3 fingers under vs. split), or the number of arrows per end, scoring, whistle signals, or something else? Was it a major safety issue? Did the coach not know of the kid's prior experience?

I know that I could be in the same boat as the example coach, because I honestly don't know what and how kids are taught at NASP or ASAP. Shooting a bow is shooting a bow, but I know there are some differences in how kids are taught to shoot. The other programs may or may not teach the same details, number of steps, etc. 

As a coach, if I know there are differences between the way NASP/ASAP teach vs. JOAD, then its my job to gently teach the JOAD methods. This doesn't mean I have to correct every little thing the kid does differently, but I need to work with the student to make changes, IF they are necessary. Even now, coaching beginners, I try to correct one thing at a time. Too much correction leads to frustration and that leads to dropping archery. The first step is to show the potential JOAD that Olympic archery is FUN, and that will keep them coming back.

Does anyone who is familiar with all three programs want to put together a comparison sheet covering the basic methods, rules, etc? That could definitely help coaches understand differences, and help ease transition.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

*NASP Basics*

I am the Co-Coordinator for the NASP program in my state, so I'll try to outline some of the basics.

For those who are interested in finding out more, see the NASP Website: www.NASPArchery.com 

First, NASP stands for National Archery in the School Program. It is focused in introducing thousands of kids to archery through in-school lessons, usually part of the Physical Education curriculum, but sometimes in other courses i.e. life skills, outdoor education ...

Course is taught as part of the daytime curriculum, by the PE or other teacher. Sometimes the teacher is not themselves "an archer" before starting the program. So a lot of focus on keeping it simple and standardized!

Program is USUALLY taught indoors, in a gym or mulit-purpose room, and starting at close distances (5-7 yards).

All archers in the program nationwide use the SAME bows and arrows and same shooting method. Again the focus on simplicity and standardization. The bow used is the original Genesis bow (a zero-letoff compound bow, sometimes called a constant-draw weight bow). Arrows are full-length aluminum. Archers shoot barebow (no sights) and are taught with a three-fingers under nocking, corner of the mouth anchor.

Contrary to one of the posts above, one big reason for keeping NASP archers with this style is there IS competition, at both STATE and NATIONAL level, with scholarship money at stake in the nationals. Competition distances are 10 and 15 meters (30 arrows total) at 80 cm faces.

We have encountered similar situtations to the story that started off the article. It would be real tempting for someone not familiar with the standards of NASP to look at an archer and their equipment and jump in with both feet, "your arrow is too long, much too stiff for your draw weight ... you'll never get much distance with three fingers under and a corner of the mouth anchor ... add a sight and a kisser to get more accuracy ... " 

If a NASP archer shows up at your range or shop, please understand THEIR program and work with them to achieve their best performance WITH the equipment limitations!

ALSO, as suggested in one of the posts above, open their eyes to ALL the facets of archery (FITA, Field, Indoor, and 3-D plus their variants)!

Thanks for listening!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

wa-prez said:


> If a NASP archer shows up at your range or shop, please understand THEIR program and work with them to achieve their best performance WITH the equipment limitations!
> 
> ALSO, as suggested in one of the posts above, open their eyes to ALL the facets of archery (FITA, Field, Indoor, and 3-D plus their variants)!
> 
> Thanks for listening!


There probably should be a brief section in the NAA L2 course about helping transition in archers from other methodologies with an overview of some common ones. At the very least, a description like your brief and cogent summary of NASP probably ought to be included given that NASP programs are likely to be among the programs that would motivate kids to be interested in JOAD.

As a kid I would find such a transition frustrating such as when we learned "printing" first and then had to learn a whole new way of "Palmer cursive" writing.* The NASP program also has a role to play in transitioning students to other archery programs. It should tell students that they are learning one of many styles. Lack of expectations management is the other half of the issue posited in the OP. It wasn't just the JOAD clubs fault but the NASP programs fault for not warning people about different styles.

As an aside, now we have to find out how the new _After_ School Archery Program (facilitated by our ubiquitous friends at NADA, natch) will fit into the training hierarchy... https://www.afterschoolarchery.org/


*A much better system is used by some schools where they teach a printing system that can also be connected into an attractive and legible italic "running hand" ("cursive") rather than the obsolete Palmer cursive that is so hard to read with it's un-necessary loops and curlycues.


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## JLorenti (Mar 17, 2004)

*Bob....(Serious Fun)*

I believe it is a coaching issue.. really. 
When Brittany and Allison first entered the Joad Room at Hall's Arrow Joad, about ten years or so ago, they walked in with their camo bows and camo quivers, their 3D experience and nothing else. They were good shots but had no stamina and were certainly not target archers at the time. But Thank God for Tricia Hall, she saw their potential and accepted them into the group immediately. And tricia did an outstanding job of promoting the girls to the group as "We have new Archers kids its Brittany and Allison." They were Archers not target archers not this or that they were kids just like everyone else and they were archers that was all the group needed to know and wal la instant acceptance, it didn't matter how they shot. It was great.

I do believe if that NASP archer that you mention had an introduction into target archery like Brittany and Allison did, accepted with open arms so to speak. it would have been much different for that archer and that individual would hopefully still be shooting.

Its all about the coach's ability to handle kids and have a mentality to PROMOTE ARCHERY that keeps kids involved.
To this day i have the utmost respect as to how Tricia Hall and now the Hall's Joad staff handle their kids and promotes the important values,to love the sport of archery .no matter the childs background, or style of shooting.
For a coach to immediately tell a youngster thats not how we do it here is shortchanging the potential talent that archer could some day have.
Let the kids shoot,let them develop a love for archery, build up their self esteem and let them be archers, when they come to you and say I want to do this or be that then its time to show them "the way" but untill that time occurs let'm shoot for gods sake. Promote archery. Relish in the happiness the kid is having in his or her shooting.

Bob the Joad Club and their coaching phlosophy has so much to do with the success of youth in their transition from any archery discipline to Joad.

Lesson to be used in the youth programs:
Why do you think that Coach lee has promoted his philosophy his technique to all the coachs out there. because he wants the same message to spread for the elite archers out there as well as the coach who has that child who wants to doit right and now wants to take on the challenge of becoming a better archer or perhaps some day an elite archer.

We have to look at the NASP transition to JOAD as very basic and grass roots. The Joad Coaches mentality has to be accepting first and then encouraging , and then show he archers "The way" if they want it. An archer should never be turned away just because he or she shoots a different style or is not interested in becoming an elite archer. hey you never know the younger sister or brother of that NASP archer who does not want to become an elite archer but just wants to shoot per say, and only because the older one was accepted and is still shooting the young one may have the opportunity to shoot and may develop into an olympic champion or world champion. Stranger things have happened. Love of archery first and foremost. 
The story you tell almost sound like the Joad coach acted like a fanatical little league baseball dad. You know the dad who wants his kid to be totally absorbed into winning and nothing more at the age of eight. Forget about loving the game of baseball. Hes just out there to think about winning at all costs. it s just hogwash, those kids are lucky if they continue through little league at all.
I think the philosophy of the grass roots programs, Joad or The college programs for those who start at an older age, should be formulated in a accepting , encouraging format at first and then if it is something that is wanted should progress onto the elite technique.
I'm rambling a little and don't mean to but Grass root BOG's should be aware there is a need for common ground amongst the JOAD coaches to promote archery in general so that the transition of a NASP shooter goes smoothly into JOAD instead of losing shooters because of overly critical coaches at a time in a young archers life when that is the last thing the coach should do.

Grass roots BOG you should lay down a set of simple fundamental guidelines that should be followed by JOAD coaches when the are taking in a NASP shooter. It would certainly help. Nothing elaborate just some guidelines so we dont lose archers and truly continue to promote archery to those individuals.
If Tricia Hall wasn't there accepting Brittany and Allison, from the 3D world,and from their back yard shooting, I wouldn't have two United States Archery Team members, in my family.

I hate to do this to tricia, but I bet she would write out some definate do's and don'ts if you were to ask her to help define the transition process for Joad coaches.

My view, Love archery first then all things fall into place. Promote Archery at any level and things will get better.
And by the way i commend you Bob , for you surely promote the sport of archery in its truest sense. Thank you.

Joe lorenti


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

WA-PREZ, thank you for the information. I know I try to get new shooters started with split fingers and under the chin anchor. This thread reminds me to always ask first if a new shooter (new to our club) has ever shot, then to ask how they have been taught. I can't say that I wouldn't try to get them to try split finger and under the chin anchor, but I'd certainly understand more that they already have been taught one perfectly good method of shooting. I do explain that learning from the start the under the chin anchor will help with distance IN THE FUTURE, and is easier to learn now, than to have to unlearn later, and I try to introduce new methods one step at a time.

As for the posibility of a coach talking about arrow length, stiffness, sights, kisser button, on day one, that's just asking WAY too much for a new shooter to deal with.

Joe, very good post. I think the first thing, as I stated in my first post, is to teach coaches the differences between program teaching methods, and second, for coaches to remember to ASK new club members if they have any experience.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

hkim823 said:


> Forgive me if I'm way off base, but NASP was designed to introduce the sport of archery to school children. There's no competitive tournament component to the program as far as I know right? The same way that summer camps have introduced many children to archery, some of which have taken the next step to go competitive, I feel the NASP does the same.


Actually, the NASP is extremely competitive and theh NASP National Championship Tournament drew over 2000 school children in 2006 and 2007.

There are some major differences between the NASP and BEST Method shot sequences that are far greater than where to anchor. I can easily understand what happened to the child, and I don't think we need to be too eager to put all blame on the JOAD coach. JOAD includes compound too, so the kid should have fit in, even if he walked in with a Genesis bow and was shooting it with fingers. There has to be more to this than a difference in shooting style.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

*Can't wait any longer*

This will be a long one, so forgive me. 

The JOAD Club that Bob wrote about was ours, The Papago FITA Archers in Phoenix, AZ. Bob, was correct when he said he was embellishing the story for effect. During a break in a Judges Seminar that Bob was conducting, all of us who were participating were wondering why JOAD Clubs are not flooded with Beginner archers from NASP. I mentioned that our club has only seen two NASP Archers and for some reason they never came back. At that time and to this day we do not know why. There are some differences in the way NASP archers are taught, but not enough to be concerned with when welcoming a new archer to our club. One of the main differences is that we use only recurve bows to teach with and NASP Archers use the Genisis bow. We welcome all shooters and bow types (our head coach is an accomplished compound shooter), but recurve’s are less expensive for our club. These Archers actually seemed to have a good time, but commented after a few times shooting how different it was. I’m not sure what they meant by that and it was our fault for not finding out. As I said before, they never came back.

Since that time we have made a point to try and learn about NASP. In Arizona there are at least 30 schools participating in NASP, yet the JOAD Clubs are not growing. With 90 to 130 kids in a NASP program at each school, where do the kids go?

Here is an explanation of the NAS Program in Arizona, as I understand it. I think every state may be slightly different. As was said in a previous post NASP has a State Championship and a National Championship, so it can be a competitive program. Here in AZ. The NAS Program is taught in a one to two weeks segment of the P.E. Class. When the session is over the equipment goes back into the storeroom and it’s on to another sport. Teachers are given a basic Level I (NASP) archery instructors class and the school gets a bow box of Genisis bows. These bows are the only ones that are allowed to be used in the program. The theory is to keep everything the same and simple, for the teacher and the students. Plus, no archer has an unfair equipment advantage. In Arizona The NAS Program is administered by the Arizona Game and Fish Department. Most P.E. Classes have about 20 to 30 students with one teacher and maybe an assistant. I have had an opportunity to talk with a teacher who in involved with NASP and her insight was valuable. Because of class size and curriculum requirements, the teacher will not have the time to give each student to best instructions so the goal is to get them to shoot and have fun. They also tend to modify their teaching approach to get this done. Like most activities, you have fast learners and not so fast learners. Unfortunately, the vast majority of these students never pick-up a bow again. Why?

Our Frustration with the NAS Program is the inability to let NASP Instructors know about “the next step” for those students who may be interested in Archery. We have not been able to find out what schools participate in the program. If we do, schools in this day and age are very reluctant to introduce an outside organization to their students.

I don’t feel any JOAD Program will have issues with NASP Archers if NASP and the JOAD clubs work with each other. I look at NASP, ASAP and JOAD Programs much like traditional sports. You have students participating in the school and those who want more out of it move into the clubs. What’s missing in Archery in the connecting bridge between each program. Thanks for your patience. 

Mike Cullumber
Papago FITA Archers


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

mcullumber said:


> This will be a long one, so forgive me.
> Our Frustration with the NAS Program is the inability to let NASP Instructors know about “the next step” for those students who may be interested in Archery. We have not been able to find out what schools participate in the program. If we do, schools in this day and age are very reluctant to introduce an outside organization to their students.


It would be good to see some cross pollination, especially since NASP is neither NAA nor NFAA.



> The National Archery in the Schools Program (NASP) is a joint venture between state departments of Education and Wildlife. Several archery equipment manufacturers and organizations are also partners (listed below). The program promotes student education, physical education and participation in the life long sport of Archery. The program’s focus is to provide International Style Target Archery training in physical education classes grades 4 - 12


--from the NASP website.

NADA is now facilitating what seems to be a follow up to NASP, the _After_ School Archery Program, which it claims is "endorsed" by NAA, NFAA, ASA, ATA and funded by Easton. Of course NADA also facilitates JOAD which is also sponsored by NAA. It seems that archery could use some coordination.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> It would be good to see some cross pollination, especially since NASP is neither NAA nor NFAA.
> 
> --from the NASP website.
> 
> NADA is now facilitating what seems to be a follow up to NASP, the _After_ School Archery Program, which it claims is "endorsed" by NAA, NFAA, ASA, ATA and funded by Easton. Of course NADA also facilitates JOAD which is also sponsored by NAA. It seems that archery could use some coordination.


Well...yes...but the NASP doesn't recognize the ASAP as viable for their purposes. The ASAP is geared toward a community approach to archery for youth and is "bow-type and shooting style generic". The NASP (Roy Grimes) has publicly stated that any after school program that NASP promotes has to be geared to Genesis bows and "NASP regulation equipment" to prevent "equipment envy".

Denise Raum is the NASP Coordinator for AZ. You can contact her at [email protected] or 623-236-7567. She's also the AZ ASA State Director. I'm sure that she will be glad to help to establish a conduit between the NASP and community archery clubs and programs.

The concern on the part of the NASP folks is that kids will show up with a Genesis bow and be told that it isn't "real" archery tackle. If you look at the winning scores from the NASP Nationals you will see that these kids can shoot very accuratly with a Genesis bow, no sights and full length easton 1820 arrows with a NAP wire rest and fingers. Some of them could give your JOAD kids some lessons.

Get with the NASP Coordinator for your State http://archeryintheschools.org/acti...ID&cboApplicationID=321&cboFileCategoryID=969 and talk to them about getting some NASP kids to your clubs.

LD


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

The ASAP is an NFAA program for clubs, administered by NADA, not designed to be a part of the school curriculum as NASP is.

As far as the Genesis not being a real bow, anyone who says that has not shot one. They are real easy, and real fun, and I can see why NASP has chosen them. Anyone with a Genesis is more than welcome at our club, and they will be coached, just like anyone shooting a recurve. 

If the NASP wants to limit equipment to the Genesis to prevent "equipment envy", more power to them. With all equipment being equal, the only variable is the archer's skill, and those with the best archery skills will win.

Based on Mike's comment "Our Frustration with the NAS Program is the inability to let NASP Instructors know about “the next step” for those students who may be interested in Archery. We have not been able to find out what schools participate in the program.", it sounds like the NADA has some marketing to do. They need to include a customized list of local archery programs with every instructor packet that directs students where they can continue archery after the NASP/ASAP progam is finished. 

NADA needs to put up a list of all certified instructors. There is currently none available at worldarcherycenter.com that I can find. The NAA lists certified L3, 4 and 5 instructors at usarchery.org, but they do not list any L1 or L2 instructors. I'm willing to bet there are more L1s and 2s than there are L3s, 4s and 5 combined. If someone went to the trouble to get certified, I'm sure they wouldn't mind having their contact info posted. I know I wouldn't.

I still think my earlier comments about needing a chart comparing/contrasting the methods/techniques taught in the different programs is still needed.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Steve N said:


> If the NASP wants to limit equipment to the Genesis to prevent "equipment envy", more power to them. With all equipment being equal, the only variable is the archer's skill, and those with the best archery skills will win.


Oh, good grief...While it is sort of nice to see an archery program where there isn't an arms race it is rather parochial to exclude other archery programs as potential partners on that basis. In fact the NAA/NFAA L1 cert encourages coaches to shoot their high end gear along with the kids as an "aspirational" motivational aspect.

I can't tell which approach is "more" valid, but if NASP isn't turning out kids interested in following up on archery as a sport outside of school then that might be suggestive of something.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

The good news is that between JOAD and NASP there are lots of new archers getting introduced to archery. The bad news is that few in either program seem to get involved in anything besides those programs. 

Don't misunderstand . . . I think both programs are top-notch but the archery community is a disjointed bunch with more organizations then any one could ever keep track of. 

There are several local NASP programs. I have YET to see an NASP shooter at one of our JOAD events (though I am not at the regular JOAD practice sessions), nor have I heard or seen an NASP shooter come to any of our other events to learn more about archery.

I think the major failing of the NASP is they DON'T educate kids on where to go next if they want to continue. Perhaps the "final" should include some sort of introduction to the other form of archery and some expectation setting on what it takes to get involved with them. A video and Q/A or maybe a demo by some of the pros/olympians would probably go a long way. 

For JOAD there are some issues there too. A bunch of kids go through JOAD shooting compounds knowing they they are never going to be olympic shooters and are treated as such by JOAD but these are the kids I see that tend to stay involved in all types of archery: indoor, 3d, spots, field. The recurve kids (and some of them are REALLY good) are all treated as potential olympians whether they are or not. 

When coach Lee came on board, he brought with him the BEST system and thrust it upon all archers whether or not they were planning on pursusing elite status or not. I also learned he really didn't want archers to compete indoors! 
While there is much opportunity to shoot JOAD/FITA with olympic style shooting, there is never a transition of kids (as they get older) to other archery venues. Most seem to set archery aside and pursue other interests. I'm not sure what can be done to encourage trying other archery sports but it surely doesn't happen now. No reason you can't shoot field or 3d with olympic-style equipment . . especially with today's software programs, etc.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Steve N said:


> The ASAP is an NFAA program for clubs, administered by NADA, not designed to be a part of the school curriculum as NASP is.
> 
> Based on Mike's comment "Our Frustration with the NAS Program is the inability to let NASP Instructors know about “the next step” for those students who may be interested in Archery. We have not been able to find out what schools participate in the program.", it sounds like the NADA has some marketing to do. They need to include a customized list of local archery programs with every instructor packet that directs students where they can continue archery after the NASP/ASAP progam is finished.
> 
> I still think my earlier comments about needing a chart comparing/contrasting the methods/techniques taught in the different programs is still needed.


What good would this do? The NASP has their own instructor certification curriculum and L1-2-3-4-5's aren't approved to work within the NAS Program unless they go through an NASP certification.

Roy Grimes sits in the ATA Summits and hears presentations of all of the programs first-hand. There are no secret programs that none of the organizations know about. NADA can market all it wants, and Doug does a good job of marketing, but if the NASP refuses to take part in a program then it's not going to happen.

If you're a parent and know of a school that's in the NASP then have your club invite that school to come and see your operation, provide some range space for a field trip, make a presentation at an NASP certification course, get to know your NASP State Coordinator. Whatever you do, do something besides gripe about it on the internet. You're just wasting time that could be put to better use. Our club has some kids from an NASP school that come to shoot at our tournaments. Hopefully we can attract more (notice the word "attract") by fostering a relationship with other schools in the area.

If you ask your NASP State Coordinator they will tell you what schools are in the program. Work with the coordinator to foster a relationship. The Coordinators are (except for a few) employees of the State DNR, F&WS or other wildlife agency. They will help you if you ask nicly.

Good idea on the list of instructors.


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## In the shadows (Nov 16, 2007)

The NAA and BEST strikes again!
"Hey kid, I know that one of the most successful programs ever has gotten you excited about becoming an archer, but here at the NAA we don't actually give a crap about introducing children to a lifelong sport they can enjoy and feel good about. Your happiness and character deveolpement doesn't mean squat to us. We just want an Olympic gold medal. No, you can't have fun and develope at your own pace. We don't shoot archery to have fun, we do it to win and the only way to win is to shoot this way. I know because I completed a one-week course. So even though you may have the burning desireto be an archer, I will squash that desire if you don't shoot properly!"
1 in a million kids introduced to archery has a shot at the Olympics, but if those us us who truely love archery (and kids) does our job right, every one of them can develope life skills that will make them CHAMPIONS in anything they do in life. Thank God there are so many good coaches out there who actually get it!


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

In the shadows said:


> The NAA and BEST strikes again!
> "Hey kid, I know that one of the most successful programs ever has gotten you excited about becoming an archer, but here at the NAA we don't actually give a crap about introducing children to a lifelong sport they can enjoy and feel good about. Your happiness and character deveolpement doesn't mean squat to us. We just want an Olympic gold medal. No, you can't have fun and develope at your own pace. We don't shoot archery to have fun, we do it to win and the only way to win is to shoot this way. I know because I completed a one-week course. So even though you may have the burning desireto be an archer, I will squash that desire if you don't shoot properly!"
> 1 in a million kids introduced to archery has a shot at the Olympics, but if those us us who truely love archery (and kids) does our job right, every one of them can develope life skills that will make them CHAMPIONS in anything they do in life. Thank God there are so many good coaches out there who actually get it!


Wow. Very good attitude indeed. Am I to suppose that "In The Shadows" is one of the "Coaches out there who actually gets it"? I checked your profile and you truly are a mystery poster. 

Riddle me this I-T-S, "Are you truely an NASP zealot who is trying to insult the entire archery coaching community and alienate the NASP by angering anyone who doesn't subscribe to that mandated shot sequence, or are you someone from the NAA who is trying to act like an NASP supporter who is actually an ignorant baffoon to incite side-against-side?" If it's the latter then shame on you. If it's the former then read on...

If the winner of the JOAD Nationals was to enter into the NASP at a school they would be told that their shot sequence was wrong and be forced to change to 3 fingers under and an index finger at mouth anchor. They would be forced to immidately memorize new names for and rearrange the steps of the shot sequence that they perform so well. All of this in the name of conformity, not performance or having fun. They wouldn't have a choice of leaving and not coming back because the archery class is mandatory and they have to suffer day after day under an instructor who supposedly "gets it".

Go report me to Roy if you wish, but I'm telling you that there is room for all types of instruction, coaching and shooting styles in this world. Be more open minded and I think you'll "get it" a little more clearly.

LD


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Search his posts. He is not anonymous and has experience and pedigree.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Search his posts. He is not anonymous and has experience and pedigree.


Experience and pedigree don't make up for bad manners. 
I found out who he is and it saddens me even more...people with that type of experience have so much to offer us neophites...


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> Riddle me this I-T-S, "Are you truely an NASP zealot who is trying to insult the entire archery coaching community and alienate the NASP by angering anyone who doesn't subscribe to that mandated shot sequence, or are you someone from the NAA who is trying to act like an NASP supporter who is actually an ignorant baffoon to incite side-against-side?"


In the Shadows is actually a top JOAD coach. He's a bit irrreverent sometimes but I'd say he's using detailed sarcasm to vent his frustration with the direction the NAA is going, with its heavy concentration on the Olympics--a sport that only a few people will get to attend--and the NAA's attempt to push the BEST method, occasionally to ill effect on JOAD scores.

He's a full time archery coach who makes his living teaching kids archery. I'd say he has some insight on the matter. But, one can't blame you for not knowing since his profile is blank. He actually is arguing for inclusiveness and teaching archery for the fun of it as well as for competition so I'm not sure what your problem with him is other than a dislike of sarcasm. I think you have attacked the wrong person for the wrong reasons, even if by accident.



ldfalks said:


> If the winner of the JOAD Nationals was to enter into the NASP at a school they would be told that their shot sequence was wrong and be forced to change to 3 fingers under and an index finger at mouth anchor. They would be forced to immidately memorize new names for and rearrange the steps of the shot sequence that they perform so well. All of this in the name of conformity, not performance or having fun. They wouldn't have a choice of leaving and not coming back because the archery class is mandatory and they have to suffer day after day under an instructor who supposedly "gets it".


You bring up a potentially valid point, but it isn't in contradiction to what else has been said here. On the other hand, NASP is taught mostly by gym teachers who only know a little about archery from basic instruction courses so they may not be qualified to recognized different styles or teach them. Additionally, the rules for NASP competition probably require certain form, like 3 under, just as they require matching equipment, so shooting split finger under the chin might not meet the competitive program goals.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

In the shadows said:


> The NAA and BEST strikes again!
> "Hey kid, I know that one of the most successful programs ever has gotten you excited about becoming an archer, but here at the NAA we don't actually give a crap about introducing children to a lifelong sport they can enjoy and feel good about. Your happiness and character deveolpement doesn't mean squat to us. We just want an Olympic gold medal. No, you can't have fun and develope at your own pace. We don't shoot archery to have fun, we do it to win and the only way to win is to shoot this way. I know because I completed a one-week course. So even though you may have the burning desireto be an archer, I will squash that desire if you don't shoot properly!"
> 1 in a million kids introduced to archery has a shot at the Olympics, but if those us us who truely love archery (and kids) does our job right, every one of them can develope life skills that will make them CHAMPIONS in anything they do in life. Thank God there are so many good coaches out there who actually get it!


Junior Olympic Archery Development (JOAD) is primarily for Developing Junior Archers for the Olympics. It says so right in the name. A young archer doesn't have to participate in JOAD in order to have fun.

This doesn't mean you can't have fun in JOAD. This doesn't mean that archers not interested in going to the Olympics can't participate in JOAD sessions. There are many programs more suited towards recreational shooters whose purpose is not to train Olympic hopefulls such as the FITA Feathers and Arrows program.

As for the original posting...I agree there is a need to provide kids information. NASP archery isn't the only kind, but has specific program requirements and goals. JOAD has specific program goals, FITA Feathers and Arrows has specific program goals. It would be nice if after introducing kids to archery, the instructor would provide an overview of different programs and styles of archery and be able to point the kids in the direction the child is interested in going.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> In the Shadows is actually a top JOAD coach. He's a bit irrreverent sometimes but I'd say he's using detailed sarcasm to vent his frustration with the direction the NAA is going, with its heavy concentration on the Olympics--a sport that only a few people will get to attend--and the NAA's attempt to push the BEST method, occasionally to ill effect on JOAD scores.


I wouldn't call it _detailed_. Only a few may go to the Olympics, but there are many more JOAD activities along the way. There are more JOAD activities and levels of competition than there are in NASP. NASP is more competition oriented than JOAD with less emphasis placed on biomechanics.



Warbow said:


> He's a full time archery coach who makes his living teaching kids archery. I'd say he has some insight on the matter. But, one can't blame you for not knowing since his profile is blank. He actually is arguing for inclusiveness and teaching archery for the fun of it as well as for competition so I'm not sure what your problem with him is other than a dislike of sarcasm. I think you have attacked the wrong person for the wrong reasons, even if by accident.


I wish he was as articulate in conveying those thoughts as you are for conveying them for him. He said nothing of the sort in his post. There was no arguement for inclusion. I questioned his motive in ridiculing an entire organization's coaching staff and one of the most most effective archery programs in history. NASP is a good program which I strongly support, but I don't support it at the exclusion of all others. There was no attack and there was no accident.



Warbow said:


> You bring up a potentially valid point, but it isn't in contradiction to what else has been said here. On the other hand, NASP is taught mostly by gym teachers who only know a little about archery from basic instruction courses so they may not be qualified to recognized different styles or teach them. Additionally, the rules for NASP competition probably require certain form, like 3 under, just as they require matching equipment, so shooting split finger under the chin might not meet the competitive program goals.


There are no rules about shooting form for NASP tournaments. The rules are mostly equipment related. Competitors may string/face walk and shoot with 3-under or split finger and anchor anywhere on the body they choose.

As someone who is knowlegable of both NASP and JOAD and the instructor training of NASP and Coach training of USA Archery, I can tell you that there is no truth in that post, only inflamatory rhetoric.

Dee


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> There was no arguement for inclusion.


I took this to be an implicit argument for inclusion:


> 1 in a million kids introduced to archery has a shot at the Olympics, but if those us us who truely love archery (and kids) does our job right, every one of them can develope life skills that will make them CHAMPIONS in anything they do in life. Thank God there are so many good coaches out there who actually get it!


But, admittedly I'm reading lot into his post based on past context and that inference isn't necessarily right. And, generally, I am one who thinks posts should stand on their own rather than rely on non-evident context, so I think your points are important ones. Ultimately, though, I suspect that both you and ItS are good people with a passion for helping archers do their best.



ldfalks said:


> There are no rules about shooting form for NASP tournaments. The rules are mostly equipment related. Competitors may string/face walk and shoot with 3-under or split finger and anchor anywhere on the body they choose.


Good to know, I never really knew that NASP even had competitions until this thread. The national orgs don't speak with common agreement so their isn't an impartial archery news website or magazine where I'm likely to find all of this out. (It certainly won't be in the NAA magazine, which you can no longer opt out of receiving.)


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

spangler said:


> ...It would be nice if after introducing kids to archery, the instructor would provide an overview of different programs and styles of archery and be able to point the kids in the direction the child is interested in going.


Very good summation of what is needed to keep kids interested in archery. My only change to above would be to change "...the instructor would..." to "...every instructor of every program would..."

I just checked my Intermediate Instructor book. On pages 8 and 9, describing archery organizations, there is one paragraph each on the NAA and the NFAA, two sentences to cover both IBO and ASA, and one sentence for NASP programs. No information is given regarding ASAP. 

So where is there one concise source of information for instructors to present?


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## coach1 (Apr 14, 2003)

For any coaches that might be looking for "a hook" to encourage NASP athletes to attend other programs. In 2006 Coach Lee attended the NASP National Championships. While he was there he spotted two athletes that stood out in his eye. Both were invited to train at the OTC and are now in their second year of the Dream Team Program.

before coming to Chula Vista, neither of them had any archery exposure other than NASP. For those young athletes that would like to continue competing with either compound of recurve the JOAD program appears to be the next logical step. AS the competitioin venue and format is similar.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Steve N said:


> So where is there one concise source of information for instructors to present?


I would like to invite people involved in these different programs to PM or e-mail me with information. I'll set up a website that will try to do this.

As my father said, fish or cut bait.

http://www.archeryspot.com

Send thoughts to the e-mail on that page please.

-Andrew


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

spangler said:


> I would like to invite people involved in these different programs to PM or e-mail me with information. I'll set up a website that will try to do this.
> 
> As my father said, fish or cut bait.
> 
> ...


I can send you a bunch of stuff on the ASA. Do you want links...documents...photos...all the above?


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

ldfalks said:


> I can send you a bunch of stuff on the ASA. Do you want links...documents...photos...all the above?


All of the above please. 

Information about what to expect at a shoot of a certain style would be great also. 

Thank you,


-Andrew


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## In the shadows (Nov 16, 2007)

Warbow, thanks for the kind words in my defense. 
I suppose I should complete my profile, but this is the only subject (NAA/JOAD/BEST) that fires me up enough to post. I have been involved in archery at all levels my entire life and , needless to say, have developed a distaste for the NAA. I love archery. The NAA hasn't loved archery in a long time. For 20 years I have watched kids go to NAA "camps", get "rebuilt" because they weren't doing it right and never be the same again. I have been a National JOAD Champion and currently coach a few. As proud as I am of them (and I am), I do what I do for the (forgive me for being blunt) fat, slow, geeky, clumsy, uncoordinated kids that so desperately need something to feel good about. They tried baseball, soccer, etc. and hated it. Why? Because their teammates, coachs and parents made fun of them and didn't play them, further damaging their self esteem. In archery everyone gets to play, and, since their performance doesn't affect anyone elses outcome, there is no "team" pressure, just a chance to have fun and, most importantly, build self confidence and learn life lessons to make them better people. What a blessing to be able to share that.
I didn't care for the NASP program when it first came around. The Genesis bows, three fingers under, no sights, oversized arrows, under-trained teachers trying to be archery instructors. But then it dawned on me......NASP will get bows in the hands of more kids than I (and every other archery coach combined) ever could. How great is that! CT is beginning NASP this spring. I am going to the training to become an instructor trainer so that I may be part of the soultion and not the problem. Then the PE teachers will have a relationship with me and know where to send their students for "the next step". 
The Koreans are so successful not because they have a "Nationalized" system of coaching, but because of the massive talent pool that they draw from, because every school kid does archery. Just like the U.S. has amazing baseball players because every Americam kid learns to throw a baseball and swing a bat parctically as soon as they can walk. Just like every Brazilian kid is out kicking a soccer ball all day long. In the long run NASP will be responsible for more champions than BEST ever will. Victory comes from burning desire and God given talent, NOT a specific structured techinque. Do all great pitchers, golfers, etc. have the exact same mechanics? NO! (Differing body types won't allow it. This is the fatal flaw of BEST, not everyone can do it. Period.) But they all have physical gifts that the average person does not possess, and the self motivation to be great. NASP will help us find these archers.
So, where dose this leave the rest of us, especially the children, who are not the world's elite? Should we just not show up to tournaments? Should we quit the sport? Not on your life! The friends we've made, the things we've learned, the places we've been, how amazing. Archery probably means more to the "average joes" than it does to the elite. Archery got me through my parents divorce at age 9. Archery got me through changing homes and schools 7 times from age 9 to 15. (I never had any friends, other than in archery.) And archery brought me home from Florida at age 21, after living a dangerously wild and fast life for a year. (I may not even be alive right now if it weren't for archery.) I would rather make friends on target 12, than win the gold on target 1. This is the heart and soul of archery. Champions will make themselves, but this is what we need to share with all children.
(P.S. I do apologize for my exterme sarcasm in the earlier post. When mixed with my passion, it makes me look like a real a-hole. There really should be a special sarcasm font.)


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

In the shadows said:


> The NAA and BEST strikes again!
> "Hey kid, I know that one of the most successful programs ever has gotten you excited about becoming an archer, but here at the NAA we don't actually give a crap about introducing children to a lifelong sport they can enjoy and feel good about. Your happiness and character deveolpement doesn't mean squat to us. We just want an Olympic gold medal. No, you can't have fun and develope at your own pace. We don't shoot archery to have fun, we do it to win and the only way to win is to shoot this way. I know because I completed a one-week course. So even though you may have the burning desireto be an archer, I will squash that desire if you don't shoot properly!"
> 1 in a million kids introduced to archery has a shot at the Olympics, but if those us us who truely love archery (and kids) does our job right, every one of them can develope life skills that will make them CHAMPIONS in anything they do in life. Thank God there are so many good coaches out there who actually get it!


By all the gods of Rome, that one is good enough I have to bring it back to the top.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

In the shadows said:


> Warbow, thanks for the kind words in my defense.


We've had some unimportant disagreement in a previous thread (I don't even remember what it was) but I remain moved and impressed by your passion for teaching and support for the "everyman" in JOAD, not just the few who may wind up at Chula Vista. I've always thought of archery as a bit of an "underdog" sport (perhaps inaccurately) and I like hearing from an insightful outsider.

I only work with kids a little--mostly when I occasionally teach fencing and stage combat, which, like archery, involves handing kids weapons. Learning how to deal with them and teach effectively is not something I have a lot of formal experience with so I'm always fascinated and interested to hear from people who are good at it--especially when they promote the kind of coaching I would have like to have had as a kid and the kind I'd want to send my kids to.

You may be a bit of a firebrand on this issue but you often make some really germane points.



In the shadows said:


> I There really should be a special sarcasm font.


I concur. I propose Sarcastica Extra Heavy.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

In the shadows said:


> Warbow, thanks for the kind words in my defense.
> I suppose I should complete my profile, but this is the only subject (NAA/JOAD/BEST) that fires me up enough to post. I have been involved in archery at all levels my entire life and , needless to say, have developed a distaste for the NAA. I love archery. The NAA hasn't loved archery in a long time. For 20 years I have watched kids go to NAA "camps", get "rebuilt" because they weren't doing it right and never be the same again. I have been a National JOAD Champion and currently coach a few. As proud as I am of them (and I am), I do what I do for the (forgive me for being blunt) fat, slow, geeky, clumsy, uncoordinated kids that so desperately need something to feel good about. They tried baseball, soccer, etc. and hated it. Why? Because their teammates, coachs and parents made fun of them and didn't play them, further damaging their self esteem. In archery everyone gets to play, and, since their performance doesn't affect anyone elses outcome, there is no "team" pressure, just a chance to have fun and, most importantly, build self confidence and learn life lessons to make them better people. What a blessing to be able to share that.
> I didn't care for the NASP program when it first came around. The Genesis bows, three fingers under, no sights, oversized arrows, under-trained teachers trying to be archery instructors. But then it dawned on me......NASP will get bows in the hands of more kids than I (and every other archery coach combined) ever could. How great is that! CT is beginning NASP this spring. I am going to the training to become an instructor trainer so that I may be part of the soultion and not the problem. Then the PE teachers will have a relationship with me and know where to send their students for "the next step".
> The Koreans are so successful not because they have a "Nationalized" system of coaching, but because of the massive talent pool that they draw from, because every school kid does archery. Just like the U.S. has amazing baseball players because every Americam kid learns to throw a baseball and swing a bat parctically as soon as they can walk. Just like every Brazilian kid is out kicking a soccer ball all day long. In the long run NASP will be responsible for more champions than BEST ever will. Victory comes from burning desire and God given talent, NOT a specific structured techinque. Do all great pitchers, golfers, etc. have the exact same mechanics? NO! (Differing body types won't allow it. This is the fatal flaw of BEST, not everyone can do it. Period.) But they all have physical gifts that the average person does not possess, and the self motivation to be great. NASP will help us find these archers.
> ...


Yes, you truely are one of the converted. Call me in a year...615-497-0147...after you've been up to the big house and seen the light...

The NASP is a great program which I fully support, but...well, you'll see...we need JOAD too...to produce the Champions.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> Yes, you truely are one of the converted. Call me in a year...615-497-0147...after you've been up to the big house and seen the light...
> 
> The NASP is a great program which I fully support, but...well, you'll see...we need JOAD too...to produce the Champions.


Hmm, did Limbwalker shoot JOAD?

I think ItS is pointing out that JOAD on its own doesn't produce olympic champions, having a very broad group of archers so the talent and drive can show themselves. JOAD is a finishing school rather than a farm league.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

In the Shadows... "hear hear!" to your post.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Hmm, did Limbwalker shoot JOAD?
> 
> I think ItS is pointing out that JOAD on its own doesn't produce olympic champions, having a very broad group of archers so the talent and drive can show themselves. JOAD is a finishing school rather than a farm league.


No program "on its own" produces anything. There have to be auxillary and supporting programs. NASP "on its own isn't producing anything but a bunch of school kids that have been exposed to archery, plus a couple who have been selected to the Jr. Dream Team and the RA Program.

Some of the most successful NASP archers were already accomplished compound tournament archers before NASP came along. The Cofield brothers shot at Old Hickory Lake Bomen Club for years before they had NASP at their school. NASP "on its own" didn't produce these archers.

JOAD "on its own" doesn't produce champions either. There has to be a National structure of tournaments, organizations, coaches, instructors, families, information systems, archery shops and manufacturers to make, market, sell and adjust tune and prove the equipment and skill of the young archers. 

A 2-week school program using one brand of bow, with one brand of arrow is not going to do that. That program has to graduate archers into the real world by encouraging them to take that step an move on to clubs, shops and ranges off of the school property. Is NASP doing that? I can't tell you if it is or not, but archery club and range memberships aren't going up and NASP has been around for 5 years now.

I am not faulting NASP for what they're doing. Nor will I fault JOAD for anything. Each servs it's own purpose and fills a seperate niche so each must be given credit on its own merits. As for I-T-S, I hope that you actually get to work in the NASP in CT. I hope that you are allowed to work with the kids in school to make them champion archers and hook them on a "life sport" in the 'fun' way that you have outlined. I truely hope that you can make a positive difference in many childrens' lives. I truely hope that the bitterness that you harbor for the NAA and JOAD fades over time and you can learn to be civil and reasonable when you post and not characterize the entire JOAD program with statements like this:


> Originally Posted by In the shadows
> The NAA and BEST strikes again!
> "Hey kid, I know that one of the most successful programs ever has gotten you excited about becoming an archer, but here at the NAA we don't actually give a crap about introducing children to a lifelong sport they can enjoy and feel good about. Your happiness and character deveolpement doesn't mean squat to us. We just want an Olympic gold medal. No, you can't have fun and develope at your own pace. We don't shoot archery to have fun, we do it to win and the only way to win is to shoot this way. I know because I completed a one-week course. So even though you may have the burning desireto be an archer, I will squash that desire if you don't shoot properly!"


 There isn't anything about finishing school here.


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## JLorenti (Mar 17, 2004)

*Drive and love...*

for archery.this thread is starting to get it....

There is a man in Woodstock ,Ct has the drive of ten people in archery, a love of archery that is second to none and he is about to go to his fifth olympics........he shoots by himself in his house or in his back yard everyday, everyday,everyday,and he has his priorities truly in line... I have no higher respect for anyone in archery than this man....he doesn't post here he is not interested in that.. he is interested in ARCHERY ITSELF. He helps all that ask at the range he works at and is truly an archery role model.

To promote archery no matter the venue ,no matter the style, no matter the shooter, is the key to expanding archery in this country AND developing champions, for those who see this as a neccesity. Love and drive for archery, in all its arenas, there is no more important foundation to build our sport on.

Nothing is more wonderful to see, for me, than a family shooting together.

Joe Lorenti


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> There isn't anything about finishing school here.


No. That was piece of biting piece of satire, one that resonates with many people. I'm not sure why you repeat it here, especially after ItS went to the trouble of explaining the reason for his disillusionment with the NAA in a lengthy subsequent post.

BTW, you wrote: "I truely hope that the bitterness that [he] harbor for the NAA and JOAD fades over time"

Why is it that you put the onus on ItS to change? Isn't it just possible that there really is a problem with NAA and/or JOAD that should be addressed?

I also reject your characterization that In the Shadow's satire was in any way "uncivil." Biting and strongly opinionated? Sure. But "uncivilized?" No.

ItS isn't just some random stranger, though even so he could still be right and have a point. No, he is someone who knows JOAD intimately, both as a champion and the coach of champions--and yet what he is advocating is for a program that doesn't concentrate on champions to the exclusion of the archers who will not be champions. He is, so to speak, championing the little guy, the kids--and even adults--with no voice in archery. I think we should, perhaps, be less prone to reflexively dismiss his points and perhaps consider that there are ways that the NAA and JOAD could be made better for the majority of archers. I think ItS is part of the solution not the problem. I think _reflexive_ defense of the Status Quo is the problem.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

One point here . . . I don't think JOAD or NASP are doing anything wrong nor should they do anything different. I think other individuals or groups or organizations need to step up and work with JOAD and NASP to present archery. I may look at doing this from our clubs perspective. We have a large JOAD group and we get others. There is also a non-affiliated school group that just started shooting. 

I am picturing a presentation. Maybe a video or sideshow explaining the different things in the world of archery and how to get involved with them. Along with this, I'm thinking of demonstrations of equipment and shooting. For example . . . for NASP kids show olympic style equipment and where it is typically used (JOAD/FITA) and compound equipment (FITA/FIELD/3D, etc.). The program should be tailored to an area and, ideally, give kids a chance to try different things. 

The need for this is very clear to me. I shoot pins even for FITA 'cause I don't have 2 or 3 bows. I had a FITA shooter and JOAD coach ask me "What are all those pins for"? 

Thoughts? Is this a good idea? Suggestions on how to make the presentation interesting? Also . . do you think JOAD coaches would be loathe to allow this? I'm sure ours wouldn't and he probably already does this for those with interest.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mr. October said:


> Thoughts? Is this a good idea? Suggestions on how to make the presentation interesting? Also . . do you think JOAD coaches would be loathe to allow this? I'm sure ours wouldn't and he probably already does this for those with interest.


Loathe? No. Unlikely? Probably.

Little as I know about teaching, I do know that one tries to concentrate on what we are going to do rather that what we are not going to do. With the limited time in a group class and shooting session it is a lot easier and generally more productive to concentrate on JOAD rather than the rest of the world.

But, that being said, I'd love to see kids introduced to a broad range of archery. As for making the presentation interesting, it is usually good to "show" rather than "tell."


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## In the shadows (Nov 16, 2007)

Prior to NASP I had been trying for almost 8 years to get into the school systems here in CT. I am extremly well qualified in archery instruction. The state of CT actually has it's own archery instructor certification program for camps, for which I am co-director. My school has a long, proven track record of providing programs for the recreation departments of over 30 towns in CT. But, no school will even consider letting me in the door without a masters degree. NASP is simply going to allow me to slip in the back door. I am somewhat skeptical of educators in general, and am pretty sure that I will not be satisfied with all of NASP's ways. I don't agree with every artical in my local paper, but I still advertise there. That's what I see NASP as being, mass advertising for the sport of archery. 
*Yes, we absolutely need JOAD to build champions, but we sholud not be so obsessed with producing champions that we forget what a great opportunity and responsibility we have been provided by archery to build well adjusted young people.*


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## In the shadows (Nov 16, 2007)

Warbow said:


> what he is advocating is for a program that doesn't concentrate on champions to the exclusion of the archers who will not be champions. He is, so to speak, championing the little guy, the kids--and even adults--with no voice in archery.


Warbow, right on point. We are, after all, speaking about the National ARCHERY Association, not the National Olympic Archery Medal Association. The Thompson Brothers intent was to share archery with the masses of "regular folk", not produce champions. This is my endevor as well. I also like your mention of the adults here. I have heard many adults (including yourself, I believe, in a posting here on AT) interested in a "JOAD" type program for adults as well. Unfortunately this is not a concern of the NAA.
And another thing (although this sholud probably get it's own thread) when the NAA/JOAD does build a potential champion, many cannot get funding to attend international competition.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I also reject your characterization that In the Shadow's satire was in any way "uncivil." Biting and strongly opinionated? Sure. But "uncivilized?" No.


As far as I'm concerned any use of profanity or vulgarity in a post is uncivilized. Any biggoted and prejudiced remark is uncivilized. To categorize all of JOAD as a failure that doesn't care about our young archers having a good time is closed minded and...yes, uncivil.



Warbow said:


> ItS isn't just some random stranger, though even so he could still be right and have a point. No, he is someone who knows JOAD intimately, both as a champion and the coach of champions--and yet what he is advocating is for a program that doesn't concentrate on champions to the exclusion of the archers who will not be champions. He is, so to speak, championing the little guy, the kids--and even adults--with no voice in archery. I think we should, perhaps, be less prone to reflexively dismiss his points and perhaps consider that there are ways that the NAA and JOAD could be made better for the majority of archers. I think ItS is part of the solution not the problem. I think _reflexive_ defense of the Status Quo is the problem.


 "We" haven't reflexivly dismissed anything. I've given detailed reasons for ech of my statements, I've taken time to study both sides and formulate an understanding of the place and function of each program. I have the ability to accept that there is a distinct function for each program and that there is a common ground where both sides can play and work. 

JOAD has the potential to introduce kids to a far greater range of archery skills and events than NASP ever will. JOAD works with compounds, recurves and other types of bows used in FITA competitions. JOAD has the potential to teach , target, FITA Field and 3D archery. NASP uses a Genesis bow and full length Easton 1820 arrows to shoot at an 80cm face at 10 and 15 meters. Nothing wrong with that, it's just what they do.

NASP might introduce more kids to archery than JOAD ever will, but at some point those kids will have to venture beyond the gym and into the real world. I agree that at that point we must have an understanding of where they have been and what they have learned to accomodate them and help them continue their archery career whether it be as a recreational fun shooter or as a competitive tournament archer.

The solution to the problem outlined in the first post of this thread is not to "reflexivly" dismiss JOAD as hoplessly broken and populated by Coaches who care nothing for passing enjoyment of the sport on to the students. The solution is to educate our existing and future coaches about different forms of archery and to inform them that there is a huge pool of archers waiting to take the next step and that that step could be through the door to their club. Education is the solution to this problem and cooperation between oorganizations will be the key to success...IMHO


I wish everyone the best of luck


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> As far as I'm concerned any use of profanity or vulgarity in a post is uncivilized.


My, my. Bad luck you reposted the entire and unexpurgated "uncivilivized" text in _your_ posts _*twice*_. It seems you don't mind being "uncivilized" as long as it is in the service of attributing that title to _other people_.

I could, perhaps, have respected your position on swearing were you not so hypocritical about it.

BTW, I just took your word there was swearing involved but you seem have a very low threshold for what you consider swearing, "don't actually give a crap?" That's your definition of uncivilized profanity or vulgarity??? I suppose I might correct kids on such language, but among adults? Really...


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## In the shadows (Nov 16, 2007)

ldfalks said:


> To categorize all of JOAD as a failure that doesn't care about our young archers having a good time is closed minded and...yes, uncivil.
> 
> 
> JOAD has the potential to teach , target, FITA Field and 3D archery.
> ...


#1 Many if not most JOAD clubs are great places that foster the love of the sport of archery because of caring coaches. My displeasure lies with the focus of the governing body, the NAA.

#2 NASP has the potential to teach all of this as well, IF and WHEN good JOAD coaches get involve in a bi-partisan effort. This is politics 101. Two groups so concerned in who's way is right that the masses they are suoopoed to be working for (the kids) suffer in the end.

#3 "The real world"? Oh, that's right, the NAA says if I'm not a champion I don't matter. Shooting in the backyard with my buddies, haveing a great time feeling good about something doesn't count if I have bad form and never compete.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

It's getting a little chippy on this thread. To put a little perspective on this thing, I am a Level 2 Coach and teach a JOAD group. The training was all of one long weekend. Does that qualify me to coach? No. Well, perhaps involvement in archery for decades, does. Was I offended by ITS's posts? No. There are structural weaknesses in the way JOAD intructors are trained. In fact, Kisik Lee and BEST are so new to "American Instruction" that I suspect there are very few who can instruct all the nuances of BEST effectively.
At any rate, the thread does highlight that there should be more coordination between the various groups.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> My, my. Bad luck you reposted the entire and unexpurgated "uncivilivized" text in _your_ posts _*twice*_. It seems you don't mind being "uncivilized" as long as it is in the service of attributing that title to _other people_.
> 
> I could, perhaps, have respected your position on swearing were you not so hypocritical about it.
> 
> BTW, I just took your word there was swearing involved but you seem have a very low threshold for what you consider swearing, "don't actually give a crap?" That's your definition of uncivilized profanity or vulgarity??? I suppose I might correct kids on such language, but among adults? Really...


Vulgarity...and I think it is totally incorrect among adults on a public forum that is viewed by children. My reposting what someone else typed, in context, doesn't mean that I condone that type of language in a supposedly civil discussion. There are some people with whom I can't reason and apparently you are one of them.

I don't think you would respect my position regardless of what I said, posted, quoted or ignored.




> "From midwayarcherywi" It's getting a little chippy on this thread. To put a little perspective on this thing, I am a Level 2 Coach and teach a JOAD group. The training was all of one long weekend. Does that qualify me to coach? No. Well, perhaps involvement in archery for decades, does. Was I offended by ITS's posts? No. There are structural weaknesses in the way JOAD intructors are trained. In fact, Kisik Lee and BEST are so new to "American Instruction" that I suspect there are very few who can instruct all the nuances of BEST effectively.
> At any rate, the thread does highlight that there should be more coordination between the various groups.


The Coach Certification courses differ greatly from the weekend long instructor certification course you attended. There is much more information presented. That has been discussed on other threads too. The mantra of coaches education for the last 3 years, at least, has been "Athletes First-Winning Second", and to infer to any coach who has been rescently certified that they care nothing for the students pleasure of sport is an insult.

Currently, anyone aspiring to attain a Level III Coach Certification must have completed the American Sport Education Program (ASEP) "Successful Coaching" course (online) before they can earn the Level III Certificaiton. It's a great course and you can order it by following this link:

www.asep.com/asep_content/org/USAA.cfm

It's not an easy course but is worth your time and effort.

BTW, I agree that we need to work together and coordination between groups is going to be key.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I'm afraid you are looking for insults where none exist. I merely pointed out where weakness lies.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> I don't think you would respect my position regardless of what I said, posted, quoted or ignored.


That really depends on _what_ your position was. Only a fool would respect a position unconditionally. Note that I have disagreed with many here in these forums and yet I also respect many of their positions. Perhaps the problem is with your position and not with me?



ldfalks said:


> Vulgarity...and I think it is totally incorrect among adults on a public forum that is viewed by children. My reposting what someone else typed, in context, doesn't mean that I condone that type of language in a supposedly civil discussion.


"Condone," I do not think that word means what you think it means.


> condone |kənˈdōn|
> verb [ trans. ]
> accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue : the college cannot condone any behavior that involves illicit drugs.
> • approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance : the practice is not officially condoned by any airline.


By using the alleged vulgarity yourself you are most certainly condoning it. You are specifically demonstrating that you believe the words are fit to post in an internet forum if the purpose is to make an argument. That is precisely what ItS did and yet you condemn him for it but make excuses for yourself. That is blatant hypocritical behavior, that is, you hold two contradictory standards at the same time, one for yourself and another with which you condemn _other people_.

If you are going to accuse people of profane, vulgar and uncivilized behavior you ought have good reason to do so and you ought be demonstrably above board with regards to such behavior. You are not. That you would suggest otherwise is demonstrably false, as your posts clearly prove.


ldfalks said:


> There are some people with whom I can't reason and apparently you are one of them.


If by reason you mean "bamboozle," then, yes, I am not one of them. 

The reason you can't "reason" with me is that your position _vis-a-vis_ profantity isn't reasonable, it's hypocritical.

I don't claim to always be right, though it can take me a while to be convinced. I'm defiantly ignorant of many things, especially in archery and I will always have much to learn. But, I am reasonably good at picking apart flawed and internally hypocritical arguments, in spite of the indignant protestations of some who have grown used to getting away with the same. Your position on profanity is fatally flawed, the more you try and argue that it is not, the more you will hoist yourself with your own petard.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I'm afraid you are looking for insults where none exist. I merely pointed out where weakness lies.


Hmmm...??? I was agreeing with you for the most part that coopperation is going to be key in solving whatever problems we have between JOAD and NASP, not drive-by posting and name-calling. I have repeated that over and over.

I think every Level II and Intermediate Instructor along with the many NASP BAIT instructors and BAIT Specialists should take a look at the ASEP Successful Coaching Course. I don't care if you have been in the sport for 20 years. If you've been around for that long then maybe you can pass the test without reading the book. If you do check out this course you'll see why anyone who subscribes to the present philosophies of USA Archery Coach education would not appreciate the remarks made that coaches do not caring about archers having fun. The course teaches that the "First Objective of Sport" is to have fun.

Of course it's easier to just tell me that I'm wrong than to educate yourself. There is an evolutionary change happening in the coaching community that will be for the better and will be lasting, but some people would rather see revolutionary change that may be more spectacular but not near as effective and lasting. One can pick a side...or sit on the fence. One can foster a spirit of cooperation and facilitate progress and change for the better or one can shout insults and place blame. I am on the side of cooperation and progress...and having fun. Again, just my opinion.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> That really depends on _what_ your position was. Only a fool would respect a position unconditionally. Note that I have disagreed with many here in these forums and yet I also respect many of their positions. Perhaps the problem is with your position and not with me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, my goodness, apparently you are the genious that I mistook you not to be. My humble apology sir. Now can we both just get on with our lives?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> Oh, my goodness, apparently you are the genious that I mistook you not to be. My humble apology sir. Now can we both just get on with our lives?


All that sarcasm smacks of "incivility" 

Normally I wouldn't harp on spelling mistakes, especially since I make them all the time, but misspelling "genius" is sort of apropos.

Now, what I do notice in the "substance" of your post, if it can be said to have any substance, is that you are now using sarcasm to dodge the issue. It is rather clear that I don't claim to be a genius, just reasonably good at spotting blatant hypocrisy. Now that your position is shown, IMO, irrefutably to be inconsistent you are ever so eager to move on. It is not me, sir, to whom you would owe an apology. The person to whom you would owe an apology would be the person you hypocritically accused of incivility while you, on your high horse, held yourself to a different standard--not that I think he would ask for such a thing, since he seems rather to civil too do so on his own behalf, nor would he necessarily have been insulted by your casual accusations. Still, the _civil_ thing to do would be to acknowledge your erroneous ways and _sincerely _apologize for your hypocritical behavior towards him--especially since you claim to be a big proponent of civil behavior and discourse.

If you are going to hold people to your own high standards then you should expect, if not demand, to be held to them yourself. Lead by positive example, not by hypocrisy.

BTW, you have already stated that being "close minded" is uncivil. I note that you are close minded to the possibility that you are a hypocrite in spite of the clear evidence to that effect. I think you just broke my irony meter.

And to anyone who thinks I'm going overboard with the holding people to their own standards bit, remember that it was ldfalks who accused ItS of being vulgar, profane, close minded and uncivil. I think those sort of accusations deserve a response, especially if they may be unjustified and/or if the accuser has double standards.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> All that sarcasm smacks of "incivility"
> 
> Normally I wouldn't harp on spelling mistakes, especially since I make them all the time, but misspelling "genius" is sort of apropos.
> 
> ...


I thought that I would bait the hook one last time and see if you would bite. You did. You have proven that there is no reasoning with you, at least on my part. I'm sure you think you know more about everything than anyone else. You believe that you can read minds (mine at least) and predict the future. I can't compete against that nor can my feable attempt at sarcasm match the level of professionalism you display with your sarcastic retorts and use of the spell checker.

I'm retiring from this ?dialogue? with you. I'm not going to apologize to anyone becaue I have only expressed my dislike for certain comments and exhibited behavior and I have expressed my beliefs about how the organizations should work together. If you believe that the organizations should work together then you agree with me. If you don't then we should leave it at that.

I am willing to accept your apology for jumping into the thread and ridiculing me for comments that I made to ITS because of his blanket statement about NAA and the JOAD Program. I have done nothing since then except defend my ideas against your personal attacks toward me and the insinuations you have made. In closing I would suggest that you check your friend ITS's spelling and give him a few pointers also.

Thank you for a most engaging day of delightful banter and sparing...
LD


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> I thought that I would bait the hook one last time and see if you would bite.


Indeed, baiting hooks must also be in your playbook of civilized behaviors. Too bad you don't see me dangling from one.

Once again you seek to avoid the issue: you accused ItS of being uncivil for using "profanity" and "vulgar" language and said _"As far as I'm concerned *any* use of profanity or vulgarity in a post is uncivilized_."[emphasis mine] And yet, you had already quoted this alleged profanity and vulgarity in its entirety in your own posts _twice_.



ldfalks said:


> You have proven that there is no reasoning with you, at least on my part.


You are welcome to explain how your statement _"As far as I'm concerned *any* use of profanity or vulgarity in a post is uncivilized_" is consistent with your own use of those self same "vulgar" and "profane" words. You attempted to excuse yourself by saying you were quoting in context. Sorry, quoting is still a use that falls under the category of _any use_.

You've dug yourself into a hole, but rather than admit it, climb out and start your argument afresh you insist on digging faster and deeper and on blaming the messenger.



ldfalks said:


> I'm sure you think you know more about everything than anyone else. You believe that you can read minds (mine at least) and predict the future.


You are, indeed, hilarious. The self-contradictory irony in this statement is parody proof. You accuse me of the believing myself to be able to read minds based on what evidence? Your ability to read my mind about what I think and believe? You are a master of hypocrisy to a level I had heretofore been unaware existed.



ldfalks said:


> I'm not going to apologize to anyone becaue I have only expressed my dislike for certain comments and exhibited behavior and I have expressed my beliefs about how the organizations should work together.


Nice straw argument. No, the reason you should apologize has nothing to do with your disagreement about other people's positions, it has to do with the hypocrisy of accusing people of incivility, saying "_As far as I'm concerned *any* use of profanity or vulgarity in a post is uncivilized_" while at the same time granting yourself a personal exemption to do the same because those rules shouldn't apply to you.


ldfalks said:


> I am willing to accept your apology for jumping into the thread and ridiculing me for comments that I made to ITS because of his blanket statement about NAA and the JOAD Program.


I didn't jump into the thread. I was the first poster to respond. I was already there when you came along. The record proves that.

Any tendency for facts, rational argument and holding you to your own explicitly stated standards to make you feel ridiculed may have more to do with you than what I have written.


ldfalks said:


> I have done nothing since then except defend my ideas against your personal attacks toward me and the insinuations you have made.


Oh, how soon they forget. The reason for my _responses_ was in opposition to your _attacks_ on ItS. Let's take a look at one of your first responses to ItS:


> Riddle me this I-T-S, "Are you truely an NASP zealot who is trying to insult the entire archery coaching community and alienate the NASP by angering anyone who doesn't subscribe to that mandated shot sequence, or are you someone from the NAA who is trying to act like an NASP supporter who is actually an ignorant baffoon to incite side-against-side?"


Playing the victim doesn't suit you, nor do the facts support such a contention. You accuse people of being bad for posting what you claim is vulgar and profane language _after you posted those self-same words_. You even attempt to claim that not only doesn't contradict your statement _"As far as I'm concerned *any* use of profanity or vulgarity in a post is uncivilized_," you further claim that your posting of those words to make your case doesn't even amount to condonation, in direct contradiction to the plain meaning of the word.

Banter can be fun, but I do take you seriously. I wouldn't take you so seriously except that you assumed the mantle of claiming to have higher standards, to be the champion of civility and proceeded to denigrate others on the basis of your alleged higher standards. I expect people who accuse others of defect in such standards to model the exemplary behavior they advocate rather than merely judge others, as you do. The seriousness by which I judge you and respond you you in kind is based on the standards which you claim to espouse. Not to hold you to those standards would be to do them a disservice. So it is with great disappointment that I see you have not stepped up to the plate and acknowledged the defect in your position, corrected it and reframed your argument, once again gaining the "moral high ground" rather than get bogged down in defending an indefensible position. Seems like a moral, logical and tactical error to me.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

**sigh**

Tk


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## frydaddy40 (Oct 17, 2007)

*Thanks*



In the shadows said:


> Warbow, thanks for the kind words in my defense.
> I suppose I should complete my profile, but this is the only subject (NAA/JOAD/BEST) that fires me up enough to post. I have been involved in archery at all levels my entire life and , needless to say, have developed a distaste for the NAA. I love archery. The NAA hasn't loved archery in a long time. For 20 years I have watched kids go to NAA "camps", get "rebuilt" because they weren't doing it right and never be the same again. I have been a National JOAD Champion and currently coach a few. As proud as I am of them (and I am), I do what I do for the (forgive me for being blunt) fat, slow, geeky, clumsy, uncoordinated kids that so desperately need something to feel good about. They tried baseball, soccer, etc. and hated it. Why? Because their teammates, coachs and parents made fun of them and didn't play them, further damaging their self esteem. In archery everyone gets to play, and, since their performance doesn't affect anyone elses outcome, there is no "team" pressure, just a chance to have fun and, most importantly, build self confidence and learn life lessons to make them better people. What a blessing to be able to share that.
> I didn't care for the NASP program when it first came around. The Genesis bows, three fingers under, no sights, oversized arrows, under-trained teachers trying to be archery instructors. But then it dawned on me......NASP will get bows in the hands of more kids than I (and every other archery coach combined) ever could. How great is that! CT is beginning NASP this spring. I am going to the training to become an instructor trainer so that I may be part of the soultion and not the problem. Then the PE teachers will have a relationship with me and know where to send their students for "the next step".
> The Koreans are so successful not because they have a "Nationalized" system of coaching, but because of the massive talent pool that they draw from, because every school kid does archery. Just like the U.S. has amazing baseball players because every Americam kid learns to throw a baseball and swing a bat parctically as soon as they can walk. Just like every Brazilian kid is out kicking a soccer ball all day long. In the long run NASP will be responsible for more champions than BEST ever will. Victory comes from burning desire and God given talent, NOT a specific structured techinque. Do all great pitchers, golfers, etc. have the exact same mechanics? NO! (Differing body types won't allow it. This is the fatal flaw of BEST, not everyone can do it. Period.) But they all have physical gifts that the average person does not possess, and the self motivation to be great. NASP will help us find these archers.
> ...


  Well said bother shadow! Frydaddy


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

In the shadows said:


> #1 Many if not most JOAD clubs are great places that foster the love of the sport of archery because of caring coaches. My displeasure lies with the focus of the governing body, the NAA.
> 
> #2 NASP has the potential to teach all of this as well, IF and WHEN good JOAD coaches get involve in a bi-partisan effort. This is politics 101. Two groups so concerned in who's way is right that the masses they are suoopoed to be working for (the kids) suffer in the end.
> 
> #3 "The real world"? Oh, that's right, the NAA says if I'm not a champion I don't matter. Shooting in the backyard with my buddies, haveing a great time feeling good about something doesn't count if I have bad form and never compete.


Well put once again. NAA and other orgs need to get to grips with the fact that properly taught, and encouraged, Archery can be a life long pursuit with immense rewards no matter what level you CHOOSE to take it to.

Shooting Arrows is THE sport, champions are a by product, not the raison d'etre.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

spangler said:


> *sigh*


Dead horse? I was thinking more:









If the horse keeps arguing that it isn't being hypocritical even after its clearly proven to be so I still find myself responding. It's like hearing someone continue to vehemently claim "2+2=5," and to loudly disdain all attempts to point out the obvious falsehood of such a claim.

(Of course, I don't believe in beating animals. Counterfactual arguments on the other hand, I'm happy to beat down.)


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

This thread has interested me and also concerned me.

On the original issue about coach in any club, the coach or instructor should find out just what is the archer’s expectation. Do they just want to have Fun or become a champion?
I have see this where the coach come up to the archer and states “here let me fix you”.
I do not care if you are a JOAD, NASP, High Performance or archery shop instructor/coach, you will turn that person OFF. If it happens in any setting, it is wrong.
But instructors/coaches are people, and they are not perfect. Humans make mistakes. We all just try to do or best and we try to correct each other and we move on with life. All ldfalks was doing was putting out information

But there is something else going on here.
“In the Shadows” and “War-bow” have posted in this thread and others, and both are very critical of NAA/USA Archery and the Best Method.

I am a High Performance Coach and I never heard Coach Lee or anyone else state that this is the only way to shoot a bow. Has it showed promise? Yes. Have a lot of successful archers use some or all of the Technique. Yes. But for some reason you have a problem with it.

Second
You seem to have anger towards the NAA. Is the NAA perfect? No. Is it made up of people who make mistakes? Yes. Should we just kill it? No. You do not throw out the baby with the bath water. So instead of trying to tear it down, help build it up.

I do not know where all this hatred for the NAA and the Best Method comes from and you may not want to share it.

ArcheryTalk is a place where everyone is an expert and everyone has an option. Some are worthwhile and others are not so great. Well I try to learn from other people and that is why I read this site.

Like you (In the Shadows) stated that you made mistakes and archery saved your life and got you back home. Well the NAA needs all our help now also.

Do I expect to get rip for this post? Most likey.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Steven Cornell said:


> But there is something else going on here.
> “In the Shadows” and “War-bow” have posted in this thread and others, and both are very critical of NAA/USA Archery and the Best Method.
> ...
> Second
> ...


Why would I rip you? I don't hate the NAA or BEST, though I may take issue with some (or even many) of their positions, actions or policies, and I will argue in favor of things that may be in my interest.

The things I tend to take strong issue with are generally positions that are internally inconsistent (either accidentally or through callous hypocrisy) or factually incorrect but presented as consistent and correct; however, I'm all for open and civil discussion of issues. Most problems don't have one perfect solution. The issues that face the NAA/JOAD and even the BEST Method are all like that.

I also sometimes argue against those who are for the Status Quo just because it is the Status Quo or for Change just because it is Change. We should retain what is good, add what is useful and discard what isn't. But, just what those things are is subject to debate.

I'm not an elite archer so I often rally for those things I think would benefit myself and other archers in the same class as I am. The simple numbers are that the vast, vast majority of archers will not be champion archers. Most won't even compete at all, let alone be champions. And only a small, small, small number will be Olympic Athletes. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't work hard to source and train Olympic archers, only that I think we shouldn't ignore the needs of the vast majority who aren't.

I like rationality and objective facts to the best extent that we may know them and I will advocate for the use of rational discourse and facts where ever possible. We can't really have a reasoned discussion if we don't use rational discourse and facts as the basis for that discussion. And, thus, when people try to bypass those standards I tend to call them on it, regardless of who they may be.


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## lefty9000 (Mar 30, 2006)

*Nasp*

I have just finished reading 2 pages of banter about NASP vs everything else and, aside from a few positive posts, I'm really concerned. Not only for the direction "organized" archery is heading, but for the kids that I currently coach. I have been a coach of our NASP program for 5 years and our kids have enjoyed the archery experience and our after school program to develope NASP competition teams has grown from 20 to 120 in this time. I also have many years in the different venues of archery, and I encourage the kids to try them all. We take regular trips to our archery club for indoor and 3D shooting. We have made trips to FITA/NFAA competitons for observation and to encourage participation in these. I have been planning a JOAD club for the near future and I have several kids who are interested in shooting different TYPES of archery equipment not just different types of targets or competitions. When my 4th graders shoot their first "10" and you see their smiles and reaction and then you see my 12th graders shoot their first "10" and get the same reaction, it's really hard to say that one type of archery is better to introduce to kids than the other. My kids just like to shoot and look forward to archery days in school and practice after.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

lefty9000 said:


> I have just finished reading 2 pages of banter about NASP vs everything else and, aside from a few positive posts, I'm really concerned. Not only for the direction "organized" archery is heading, but for the kids that I currently coach. I have been a coach of our NASP program for 5 years and our kids have enjoyed the archery experience and our after school program to develope NASP competition teams has grown from 20 to 120 in this time. I also have many years in the different venues of archery, and I encourage the kids to try them all. We take regular trips to our archery club for indoor and 3D shooting. We have made trips to FITA/NFAA competitons for observation and to encourage participation in these. I have been planning a JOAD club for the near future and I have several kids who are interested in shooting different TYPES of archery equipment not just different types of targets or competitions. When my 4th graders shoot their first "10" and you see their smiles and reaction and then you see my 12th graders shoot their first "10" and get the same reaction, it's really hard to say that one type of archery is better to introduce to kids than the other. My kids just like to shoot and look forward to archery days in school and practice after.


If we had a thousand people doing what you are doing, we would be set!

Thanks for doing what you are doing.

-Andrew


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

lefty9000 said:


> I have just finished reading 2 pages of banter about NASP vs everything else and, aside from a few positive posts, I'm really concerned. Not only for the direction "organized" archery is heading, but for the kids that I currently coach. I have been a coach of our NASP program for 5 years and our kids have enjoyed the archery experience and our after school program to develope NASP competition teams has grown from 20 to 120 in this time. I also have many years in the different venues of archery, and I encourage the kids to try them all. We take regular trips to our archery club for indoor and 3D shooting. We have made trips to FITA/NFAA competitons for observation and to encourage participation in these. I have been planning a JOAD club for the near future and I have several kids who are interested in shooting different TYPES of archery equipment not just different types of targets or competitions. When my 4th graders shoot their first "10" and you see their smiles and reaction and then you see my 12th graders shoot their first "10" and get the same reaction, it's really hard to say that one type of archery is better to introduce to kids than the other. My kids just like to shoot and look forward to archery days in school and practice after.


That's great. I saw Kevin Dixon at the ATA Summit in Columbus an he had many positive things to say about the OH NASP. 



spangler said:


> If we had a thousand people doing what you are doing, we would be set!
> 
> Thanks for doing what you are doing.
> 
> -Andrew


Actually you do. There are a few thousand NASP instructors who are teaching kids archery right now. Hopefully soon we will start to see them showing up in greater numbers at the archery clubs, shops and ranges to expand their archery horizons.

When this happens the operators of those facilities must understand where the NASP archers are in the training process so they can accomodate them and make them feel that they are part of the group.

At the ATA Summit, Roy Grimes said that NASP is beginning to plan its own after school archery program (NASP ASAP), but that it would use the same equipment as the kids were using in the school archery classes to prevent "equipment envy".

I think what lefty is doing is the right thng. Introduce them to archery in the classroom and then take them to the next level of education after school.

Great job lefty9000 :clap:


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Lefty9000 sounds like the ideal youth archery club leader when it comes to providing a smooth transition. 
Having the same instructor involved in NASP, ASAP and JOAD is ideal.

The number of NASP archers is staggering.
I do hear that JOAD clubs like MCullumber’s club don’t see NASP archers in any great numbers and wonder where they go after NASP.

I hear from parents often searching for a JOAD club in their neighborhood.
Fact is that there are only five active JOAD clubs in our metro area of 4 million people.
One club per 800,000 people, just doesn’t cut it when there are so many other youth activities available. 
Most likely MCullumber doesn’t see NASP archers often because the NASP archers parents don’t want to drive the distance.

Kentucky is a huge NASP state.
There are a total of TWO JOAD clubs in Kentucky listed on the USA Archery website.

Having a NAS Program in place means that they have a venue.
ASA Program can provide equipment grants.
The only thing missing is a group of instructors.

Lefty9000 will need the help of other instructors to avoid burnout.
To transition NASP to ASAP to JOAD smoothly we need a huge increase in Intermediate Level 2 Instructors willing to establish and run JOAD clubs.

Unfortunately, I don’t see many embracing the John F Kennedy like philosophy of “Ask not what JOAD can do for you, Ask what you can do for JOAD”.
I am crossing my fingers in hopes that ASAP will revive a sense of volunteerism.

I try to promote the idea of graduate JOADs becoming certified and volunteering at JOADs clubs.
Giving back, mentoring, role models, peer to peer interaction…its all good.
It will take a while for these graduate JOAD volunteers to establish themselves to be able to start a club.

Thanks goodness for the hand full of dedicated JOAD Club leaders around the country!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> At the ATA Summit, Roy Grimes said that NASP is beginning to plan its own after school archery program (NASP ASAP), but that it would use the same equipment as the kids were using in the school archery classes to prevent "equipment envy".


Now I'm confused. So ASAP is run by NADA for NASP? 

I think I'm thrown by the Drills and skills book for ASAP which has the NFAA logo on it. That and the "Equipment" section of ASAP doesn't say anything about everyone using Genesis bows. And the sponsors list for ASAP is the different than NADA, as is the format and quality of the website. The after school archery domain is registered to Dough Engh of NADA. Whereas the NASP seems to be registered to the NASP web designer, Jon Hage of
Sleeping Giant Studios.

Or, is NASP planning their own after school archery program?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Multi Target Archery Association Collaboration.*

ASAP is an example of multi target archery association collaboration.
www.afterschoolarchery.org 
NFAA, USA Archery (USAA), ASA, NADA, ATA and Easton are all shown to endorse and/or support ASAP

There is an NFAA like ASAP Scoring Game.
ASAP and Beyond includes a JOAD like “Gold Game” and an ASA “3D Game”.

Taking part in ASAP should be enlightening, exciting and rewarding for all involved.
ASAP recognizes the need to expose youth to a variety of target archery experiences.

Here is one last game, how many different abbreviations are mentioned in this post.
(Answer: More than 6 less than 8)


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> ASAP is an example of multi target archery association collaboration.
> www.afterschoolarchery.org
> NFAA, USA Archery (USAA), ASA, NADA, ATA and Easton are all shown to endorse and/or support ASAP


That would seem to be a good idea 

However, if what ldfalks states is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it):


> At the ATA Summit, Roy Grimes said that NASP is beginning to plan its own after school archery program (NASP ASAP), but that it would use the same equipment as the kids were using in the school archery classes to prevent "equipment envy".


That would seem to indicate that NASP is looking into its _own _after-school archery program that mimics the equipment requirements of NASP. I note that NASP is not listed as one of the endorsers of ASAP. A google search--"NASP site:www.afterschoolarchery.org/"--shows zero hits, as does a search for "National Archery in the Schools Program" on the ASAP site.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Warbow said:


> That would seem to be a good idea
> 
> However, if what ldfalks states is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it):
> 
> ...


I don’t know the details but:
Why not have a “National Archery In and Out of the Schools Program”?
Any thing that allows one more archery opportunity for one more person is a good thing.

I can see at NASP teacher wanting to offer a little more with what they have.
A connected National Archery In and Out of the Schools Program might help to keep a child, not interested other styles, archery momentum going.
Who knows, there might be huge adult genesis bare bow leagues in the future.

There is room around the target archery development table for everyone.
The sport must be inclusive to grow.
Perhaps it is wise to pursue ASAP, JOAD as well as a continuation of NASP out of school.
There are those that want to harvest animals too.
The old adage "dont to put all your eggs in one basket" may be the smart move.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> I don’t know the details but:
> Why not have a “National Archery In and Out of the Schools Program”?
> Any thing that allows one more archery opportunity for one more person is a good thing.


My question wasn't necessarily a criticism of the idea, but I would like to see the confusion ironed out, especially about who "owns" each of the programs, perhaps spangler could add that to his compilations site? I'd like to see who owns each program and who facilitates it, for instance, NAA "owns" JOAD but contracts NADA to facilitate it. It seems that NASP is "a joint venture between state departments of Education and Wildlife. Several archery equipment manufacturers and organizations" but is spear headed ("owned?") by Roy Grimes. And the ASAP program may be owned by NFAA (since their logo is on the NADA training book for the program) and facilitated by NADA, but financially sponsored by Easton. Or so it seems.

Anyways, I'd like to see a chart of all these relationships. Who runs and or sponsors a program influences its philosophy and/or priorities. Archery is a broad sport with many conflicting styles and competitive bodies working to promote their own interests, so it would be useful to know who's who...


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

LEFTY9000, Please check your PMs.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Warbow
I think you will find that there is no such thing as a multi discipline program archery associations organizational chart.
It has been my experience that the archery groups tend to do their own thing.
Occasionally a concept will invite and attract the interest of multiple groups, resulting in a collaboration of efforts and support.
ASAP is one of those programs.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Warbow said:


> My question wasn't necessarily a criticism of the idea, but I would like to see the confusion ironed out, especially about who "owns" each of the programs, perhaps spangler could add that to his compilations site? I'd like to see who owns each program and who facilitates it, for instance, NAA "owns" JOAD but contracts NADA to facilitate it. It seems that NASP is "a joint venture between state departments of Education and Wildlife. Several archery equipment manufacturers and organizations" but is spear headed ("owned?") by Roy Grimes. And the ASAP program may be owned by NFAA (since their logo is on the NADA training book for the program) and facilitated by NADA, but financially sponsored by Easton. Or so it seems.
> 
> Anyways, I'd like to see a chart of all these relationships. Who runs and or sponsors a program influences its philosophy and/or priorities. Archery is a broad sport with many conflicting styles and competitive bodies working to promote their own interests, so it would be useful to know who's who...


ASAP is a program with NFAA and NAA as partners and ASA supporting while NADA adminsters the program. Easton and the ATA are financial contributors to get the program started.

NASP is a program that was started by the KY DNR and was spread through other States by convincing the DNR or FWS of each state to appoint an officer as the program coordinator. Some states have volunteer coordinators or a civilian who is hired. About a year and a half ago the NASP became a non-profit corporation by forming the NASP Foundation. In the beginning the program was largly funded by Mathews Bow Company, NWTF and a couple of the archery organizations that gave donations or funded NASP activities.

In the beginning the NASP used the Level I & II courses with slight modifications dictated by the school systems for safety reasons. NASP now has their own propietary instructor training curriculum and a shot sequence that varies a little from the shot sequence and form that is commonly accepted be most of the archery community. (Nothing wrong with that, but this is one reson that NASP kids have bad experiences when entering a different shooting venue for the first time).

Now the NASP Foundation has a Board with Roy Grimes as the President, and I believe the other members are representatives from the IBO, Brennen Industries (makers of the Genesis Bow), a retired curriculum writer from the KY school system that was with the program from the start developing the school curriculum for the program and a couple of other folks. Roy Grimes has been the head of NASP activities since the start. Jennie Richardson is mostly responsible for the NASP's huge success in KY and was named by Outdoor Life as one of the 25 most influential outdoors people because of that.

The ASA is a supporter of the NASP and conducts NASP @ ASA tournaments at 2 or 3 of their Pro/Am events each year where NASP archers shoot an NASP Competition Round combined with a 3D Round.

In a couple of months you will see another joint effort between the ASA, NAA and NFAA with the new Community Coach Course that will bridge the gap between the Intermediate Instructor and the Level III Coach Certifications. It's an "organiation neutral" archery coach certification course designed to train and certify coaches at the club level who are capable of running archery programs in their communities (ASAP and other community based programs many of which are in the planning stages now). Stay tuned for more on that. It's in it's final revisions and will be available to anyone with an Intermediate Level Instructor Certification from ANY archery organization or group (NFAA, NAA, NASP, Boy Scouts, 4H...). ASA will conduct 3 Community Coach Courses in 2008 at their Pro/Am Tournaments and there is one planned for the JOAD Nationals. NFAA has also expressed an interest and will take an official look at the course during the Vegas weekend. There is a unification process happening in the archery world right now. It's coming together slowly, but in a sustainable way. :wink:

Serious Fun, there have been some serious updates to that curriculum so I'll have to send you a new copy to look at.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I am looking forward to the Level 2.5.
I think 2.5 will really help certify more Level 2s (Intermediates)
More Level 2 will mean more people to start JOAD clubs.
More JOAD clubs means more opprotunities for NASP and ASAP graduates.

I would love to see the 2.5 material.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Warbow said:


> Anyways, I'd like to see a chart of all these relationships. Who runs and or sponsors a program influences its philosophy and/or priorities. Archery is a broad sport with many conflicting styles and competitive bodies working to promote their own interests, so it would be useful to know who's who...


 I think that is a terrific idea. You should consider PM ing Selil he is pondering an informational Archery Wiki and this may be the very thing. A Visio type relationship diagram with input from those running the programs could act as a road map for people looking to find a shooting group.


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## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

Hutnicks said:


> I think that is a terrific idea. You should consider PM ing Selil he is pondering an informational Archery Wiki and this may be the very thing. A Visio type relationship diagram with input from those running the programs could act as a road map for people looking to find a shooting group.


Heck we could make a poster and draw the relationships too. It would be messy what with NFAA having more classes than mother Hubbard has children.

ETA: For the kiddos we could make it look like the periodic table.... hey where'd everybody go?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> ASAP is a program with NFAA and NAA as partners and ASA supporting while NADA adminsters the program. Easton and the ATA are financial contributors to get the program started...[SNIP]


Cool info. Thanks for posting it.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> I am looking forward to the Level 2.5.
> I think 2.5 will really help certify more Level 2s (Intermediates)
> More Level 2 will mean more people to start JOAD clubs.
> More JOAD clubs means more opprotunities for NASP and ASAP graduates.
> ...


I'm reluctant to call it the 2.5 since it might cause some confusion with the old 2.5 Instructor Trainer Course.

Since the Instructor Courses are now Basic and Intermediate, this is the Community Coach Course and eventually the Level III and IV designations may be changed to something like Regional and National Coaches to more closely resemble the level of ability at which the coach is certified.

Just some thoughts...


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Selil said:


> Heck we could make a poster and draw the relationships too. It would be messy what with NFAA having more classes than mother Hubbard has children.
> 
> ETA: For the kiddos we could make it look like the periodic table.... hey where'd everybody go?


Maybe something more like Mapsoource. type in your desired discipline and it gives you all the orgs and classes to go through to get there


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## Denise (Nov 13, 2007)

*Back to the Top*

I just wanted to go back to the original comment by Bob and say that I couldn't agree more that we need to develop a transition plan for those archers who "WISH" to participate in JOAD. 

Dee is correct in his comment about NASP beeing a "closed shop". And they do it for good reason. Their program has been very successful because it is simple. Same equipment, same rules etc. If the hope is to get some of the NASP participants to engage in a more full time club, USAA needs to do a better job of marketing our programs. You can send as many NASP kids into a local JOAD club, but if it doesn't look fun to them or if they don't have a desire to go to the Olympics, they aren't going to participate. Part of our challenge (USAA) I believe is to continue to enhance our own JOAD program and figure out how to promote it so those archers WANT to come and participate. In my opinion we need to create opportunities for them to see what Olympic archery is all about. I remember when I was 12 and was invited to participate in a JOAD camp at the Olympic Training Center. I went and it HOOKED me! I thought it was very COOL to be a part of the Olympics. I think that is the avenue we have to pursue. Realize JOAD's strengths, which is primarily the tie to the Olympics and find ways to make each of the particpants feel a part of it. If for example, the top 20 NASP finalists in their National Tournament received a letter from Coach Lee letting them know that he feels they are "Olympic Caliber" talent and invites them to join the JOAD program and participate in a summer JOAD camp in Chula Vista, I'm guessing they get VERY excited!

NASP is the best grassroots program developed in YEARS! Let's embrace it and support it for what it offers. It is growing the base of beginner archers in this country. Let's figure out how to better market our programs to entice those coming out of NASP to want to learn more.

By the way, the JOAD committee is having an open forum meeting at the Vegas Shoot for anyone who has ideas or thoughts about where they would like to see JOAD go in the coming years. 2/22 and 2/23 from 3:30 -4:30pm at the Riviera Hotel Conference Center. The committee will be formulating a strategic plan based on many of the comments from the meeting. Please use this opportunity to not criticize past events, rather come with ideas and thoughts about where we can take the program. If you cannot make the meeting, but would like to download your thoughts, let Bob or me know.

Thanks.

Denise Parker


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

*"Tis a shame.*

Tis a shame that so many people have the common goal of exposing young people to archery, yet each group feels that their way is the only way. It would be nice if the archery world, or the USA organizations all agreed to a particular style, but reality is that such an agreement would be nearly impossible. I'm suggesting that differing archery styles and methods are much like religion. If you are passionate about what or which you believe in, nothing and no one will convince you otherwise. So we need to agree that there is a God, or in this case, that archery is FUN, and for kids we need to keep the fun in the FUNdamentals. The art of coaching is to take what you see and work with it. Get the ego out of the sport and work with and for the kids. Keep the focus where it belongs. The orginal post was about trying to share the information so that those clubs who have a JOAD program could contact those kids who have held a bow in their hands and may want to expand their archery. The idea is to expand and expose beyond the classroom setting. My first exposure to archery was Boy Scout summer camp. The second was a college course that lasted three weeks, two times a week. But I never forgot it. Thirty years later I have five bows, arrows, and now am coaching and judging. Point is, lets not have these kids wait 30 years before they pick up a bow again. If we share the information, we can build the future. It is about bulding up the kids, not about building up mini kingdoms. Focus, focus, focus. Everything else is just being petty. That's my two bits worth of wisdom.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Denise said:


> NASP is the best grassroots program developed in YEARS! Let's embrace it and support it for what it offers. It is growing the base of beginner archers in this country. Let's figure out how to better market our programs to entice those coming out of NASP to want to learn more.
> 
> Denise Parker



This is really the key, isn’t it? Lots of good posts on how to be a better coach and what is needed to smooth the transition between programs, but very little has been said about how to make the program more attractive to kids which means thinking like we did as kids and remembering what motivated us. 

First, I disagree that we can’t agree on one style and promote it effectively. The problem is that we look at the BEST style and immediately impose every detail regarding it that has been written over the last two years and assume we have to start there. Hundreds of posts have addressed scapular rotation and gleno-humeral whatever and I have yet to see an effective way of explaining it that makes me say, “Oh, yeah, got it.” It’s easy to see why there would be hesitation to even think it possible. Yet, all one has to do is look at the recent post with film from the 70’s to see that there are just a few basic movements and form that can be taught and have students on their way. First let’s see why change is possible.

The biggest barriers to changing the NASP “style” are the method of hooking the string/arrow and the anchor position taught by NASP. To change it, you have to look at what is good about it and figure out how to change it and still keep what is good. Let’s look first at how they hook the string. 

The Genesis bow uses a simple plastic arrow rest and has no clicker. The first thing that happens when you try to hook the arrow/string with two under/one over is that the arrow will invariably jump off the rest. Good old arrow pinch. The NASP style of three under solves that problem by having the archer not touch the arrow. It was the perfect solution to a very real problem. Unfortunately, the result is that they end up looking like the guys at the edge of the field who are shooting the respected, but very old traditional style of shooting. If you can think like kids again for even a moment you can see why that must be changed. There is a solution, and it is just as effective and it is easily taught. It also introduces the student to the more easily recognized, world-wide standard of two-under/one over.

Many of us who hunt or target shoot with compound use a finger release. I found transitioning from recurve to compound was easiest by using the same style of release. With no clicker, however, I found I had to make a slight adjustment because I had the same problem keeping the arrow on the rest. It only took one very minor adjustment, and with it you can even keep the arrow on a Genesis rest. By simply taking the top finger and laying it over the arrow/nock you only need to apply a little pressure to keep the arrow on the rest while you pull with the two fingers under. It is exactly how many of us shoot compound fingers, and it is amazing how easy it is to keep the arrow on a wire rest even while drawing the arrow and standing on uneven, unstable ground. Those of you who use this style know exactly what I am taking about. For recurvers who don’t know what I mean, take your recurve and without using a tab, or using a tab with no spacer, draw an arrow without the clicker engaged using the method described. 

With just this change, the student can know that they are using the same basic finger release style that Olympians and world champions use. Further, it is a style that will allow them to adapt to numerous other styles, especially when combined with the required change in anchor position. 

The second major change of course, is the anchor position. I believe that once the NASP designers saw that three fingers under was a safe way to shoot, they recognized that it was the traditional style of shooting and thus the corner-of-the-mouth anchor made sense. As fundamental as apple pie. Nothing wrong with apple pie. There is, however, plenty wrong with a mouth anchor. 

I have to ask myself how much harder can it be to teach a student to bring their hand under their chin until the string touches their nose as opposed to hooking their finger in the corner of their mouth. Got fish? Perhaps many will immediately suggest that face shape and nose length and jaw shape, etc., are too many variables to teach that style. “It’s too complex!” I have a news flash…the kids are much smarter than we are. They will figure it out. In fact, after they have seen the short training film with lots of examples from top shooters, they will probably instruct us. A film, perhaps, that could be shown periodically for a refresher. Got film?

But what is the point? I think Ms. Parker touches on the point precisely. She thinks about what will motivate the kids, and she thinks about marketing. Whether we like it or not, kids like to think they “look good in the back court”. And it doesn’t take an ad exec to figure out that this means gramps is out and any of the top recurve and compound archers are in. 

“Hey, man, they started an archery program at my school and, are you ready? I’m learning to shoot just they do in the Olympics! IS THAT COOL OR WHAT?! And wait, there’s more! The style that we are learning, and I know this because they showed us a film of some of the world’s best shooters, and man you won’t believe what those guys can do. I mean they could knock a bug off your sister’s butt! And speaking of CHICKS! WOW. Ok, wait, what was I saying? Oh yeah, we’re learning the basic foundation for all different types of archery. Listen to this, dude, I can compete in a lot of different tournaments around the state and even go to National championships! I can take up compound and even use a mechanical release because the basics are similar, or I could shoot those cool curvy looking bows and wow, think of it, maybe go to the Olympics! Ok, maybe not, but there are all these clubs around that I can shoot with and they do all these cool target shoots and even these field shoots using targets or, get this, dude, big dummy animals! IS THAT COOL OR WHAT?!” 

You get the idea. Compare that to the guy/gal who is learning to shoot like “Gramps”. This is not a criticism of the NASP style that has worked well to address real concerns and is modeled after the founders of the sport. It is simply a matter of looking at the program with a little vision and a broader mission. Using the more current, widely accepted form and style of shooting will better prepare students for other archery disciplines and at the same time, dare we suggest, develop a wider pool from which to select future Olympians and champions. 

Change is good a thing.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Seattlepop said:


> I have to ask myself how much harder can it be to teach a student to bring their hand under their chin until the string touches their nose as opposed to hooking their finger in the corner of their mouth. Got fish? Perhaps many will immediately suggest that face shape and nose length and jaw shape, etc., are too many variables to teach that style. “It’s too complex!” I have a news flash…the kids are much smarter than we are. They will figure it out. In fact, after they have seen the short training film with lots of examples from top shooters, they will probably instruct us. A film, perhaps, that could be shown periodically for a refresher. Got film?
> 
> Change is good a thing.


First off, thank you Denise. Very good post and some important points.

Secondly, the Genesis bow is only 34" from limb tip to limb tip. It isn't that easy to just say "anchor here and touch your nose to the string. With an under-the-jaw anchor the string is usually an inchor so in front of the nose. The only reason for the mouth anchor is that it is easy to repeat.

Understanding, education and cooperation will get us started. After that the kids will figure it out for us...IMHO

Dee


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

This continues to be an interesting thread.



> Dee is correct in his comment about NASP beeing a "closed shop". And they do it for good reason. Their program has been very successful because it is simple. Same equipment, same rules etc.


Blessing and curse, I'd say. It is great that NASP is so successful, but as long as its impact is entirely self-contained it isn't so much promoting archery but NASP. Imagine if there were a special, simplified version of algebra only used in schools would you still be promoting algebra? Well, yes and no. It is fine to teach simplified versions of things to kids, but you should also encourage them to grow and prepare them for the more complicated versions of things they will encounter after graduation.

A number of schools have tether ball on the playground but that doesn't seem to have the effect of promoting tether-ball in general. I wonder if the same may be true for NASP?


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## cornbread64 (Dec 14, 2006)

*Keep it fun=keep the kids!*

I have two boys, the oldest one is responsible for getting us all into archery. He decided he wanted to shoot archery after a boy scout trip. After trading around a few pawn shops and a little trial and error he found a bow that fit him and was fun to shoot. With what little I knew about shootin a bow and a local bowyers help he was shootin good and having a blast. I was too. My youngest son wanted in on the fun so I got him a bow just like big brother. After a few weeks I noticed he wasn't shooting the new bow any more. He went back to an old fiberglas recuvre I had used as a training aid, he said it was more fun than the compound. So, I went out and got him a 25 pound bullseye recurve, HE HAD A BLAST!!! Every day after school he would come home and shoot for an hour, group size didn't matter. The neighbor kids would come over and take turns; six kids, one bow, hours of fun. Then one day he came home from school excited because the NASP was coming to his school. He counted down the days. Then some remedial teacher with some training class under his belt began to tell him how wrong he did everything according to the RULES. He could shoot a 6 inch group at 15 yards on his recurve, with no sights, and a rubber bear rest. But he was doing it all wrong. He came home in tears. For three months he wouldn't touch his bow. Finally I got him to shoot with me, just for fun. Targets, soda cans on the ground, a big leaf, whatever. Now he's back to shooting every day with his friends. For fun. I shoot every day, compound and recurve, I am hooked. But as I explained to my son, you can be as serious as any olympic or 3-D shooter if you want to take the time and effort to train, or grab your bow, a handful of arrows and a fewbuddies and have a blast. Yes we need to get more kids into archery to have fun. Millions of people play golf but how many can play like Tiger Woods? Let them have fun. If you find one that has the desire and talent to go olympic, work with them. Don't force the rest of them. They are kids. Let them be kids.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

@cornbread64

Wow! That really sucked. I suppose the lesson is that a bad teacher is a bad teacher no matter what the branch of archery is and that crushing dreams is much easier than building them up. It can be very easy to alienate kids, especially if they've worked hard at something already.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

USA Archery JOAD created the Barebow division to facilitate NASP (ASAP) and traditional transition to JOAD. 
Here is a link to a separate thread.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=628729 
I will be interesting to hear from those interested in Barebow and JOAD.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

cornbread64 said:


> I have two boys, the oldest one is responsible for getting us all into archery. He decided he wanted to shoot archery after a boy scout trip. After trading around a few pawn shops and a little trial and error he found a bow that fit him and was fun to shoot. With what little I knew about shootin a bow and a local bowyers help he was shootin good and having a blast. I was too. My youngest son wanted in on the fun so I got him a bow just like big brother. After a few weeks I noticed he wasn't shooting the new bow any more. He went back to an old fiberglas recuvre I had used as a training aid, he said it was more fun than the compound. So, I went out and got him a 25 pound bullseye recurve, HE HAD A BLAST!!! Every day after school he would come home and shoot for an hour, group size didn't matter. The neighbor kids would come over and take turns; six kids, one bow, hours of fun. Then one day he came home from school excited because the NASP was coming to his school. He counted down the days. Then some remedial teacher with some training class under his belt began to tell him how wrong he did everything according to the RULES. He could shoot a 6 inch group at 15 yards on his recurve, with no sights, and a rubber bear rest. But he was doing it all wrong. He came home in tears. For three months he wouldn't touch his bow. Finally I got him to shoot with me, just for fun. Targets, soda cans on the ground, a big leaf, whatever. Now he's back to shooting every day with his friends. For fun. I shoot every day, compound and recurve, I am hooked. But as I explained to my son, you can be as serious as any olympic or 3-D shooter if you want to take the time and effort to train, or grab your bow, a handful of arrows and a fewbuddies and have a blast. Yes we need to get more kids into archery to have fun. Millions of people play golf but how many can play like Tiger Woods? Let them have fun. If you find one that has the desire and talent to go olympic, work with them. Don't force the rest of them. They are kids. Let them be kids.


Didn't I see this post somewhere else before this...?


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

The NASP program certainly can polarise opinions.

Ultimately the success of the NASP program in schools is due to it being an "educational program that uses a bow and arrow", not an archery program.
Fortunately for NASP the "how to shoot" part was written by one of the most success recurve coaches the US has. Don't know why you would want to change it.

If it were an archery program it would not be as successful as it is. If the archery associations got hold of NASP then it would become an archery program and it would get caught up in their politics and become as popular as they are.

I understand NASP has reached 900,000 kids in the US, no doubt some will find their way to organised archery and maybe to Olympic glory.
The vast majority who take up shooting as an adult will be bowhunters and spare themselves the angst of dealing with archery politics and over-zealous administrators.


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## cornbread64 (Dec 14, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> Didn't I see this post somewhere else before this...?


Not from me, but, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a familiar story. I am not knocking NASP, I just think a little more effective training for instructors would be advantageous for all. Just a quick comment that "this is the way we train, but other methods will work" and follow up with the students about where they can go to get more training or information about archery. A lot of the parents at this school were expecting more from this program. Keep it alive, but keep it fun.:set1_polevault:


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Many are mentioning the need for better trained instructors.

There are some challenges here.
1.	We need as many JOAD clubs as we can. There are far to few.
2.	We are lucky that many JOAD instructors and coaches have been active for a long time. As a result it has been a long time since they were certified and in some cases, teaching techniques have changed.
3.	Starting a JOAD club is easy. (from the USAA Club registration form) “The Club Coach should be responsible for the quality of athlete instruction within the entire program, must be at least 21 years old, and preferably a Level Two Instructor.” Note that Level 2 Intermediate archery instructor certification is not required.
4.	If we require a higher level of club instructor certification and/or continuing education, we risk loosing clubs. Are we willing to see that happen? 

There are a huge number of youth archers that would like to continue on with their archery after a NASP experience. We need more JOAD clubs. Ranges and equipment can be problematic but the hardest to find are dedicated volunteers willing to be trained and be dedicated JOAD club instructor and coaches.
So long as increasing the number of JOAD clubs is a priority to insure that youth archers have an opportunity to give target archery a try, the quality of JOAD instruction will be as it is now.

More about clubs:
As I look over the thread, I realize that Mike Cullumber’s JOAD club gave the NASP archer the opportunity to continue on with target archery.
(Note that Mike’s clubs offers free introduction sessions)
As the discussion sways back and forth, I think I would rather have Mike’s club offer the experience it did than none at all.
What I didn’t mention in my little half truth story is that Mike’s club, the Papago FITA Archers/Papago FITA JOAD is the largest and most active USAA/NAA club in Arizona.
They have a large number of dedicated member volunteers.
They have a great partnership with Sun Devil Archery at Arizona State University.
You can literally see archers ages 8 to 80, beginners and national champions, compound, recurve, barebow, field and international guest archers, all on the line together at the PFA.
They will be spinning off a satellite club location 22 miles away next year when a range they helped to lobby for and plan is finished.
They aren’t every thing to everyone, but they are close to it and we need more of them.


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## NASParchery (Mar 13, 2008)

*November 2004 - 1500 students were questioned about NASP*

November 2004 - 27% of the 1500 (KY) students surveyed made their very first archery purchase within one year of going through the NASP program. We are administering another survey within 10 NASP states to follow up the 2004 survey. If you want to see the original survery it is on the Archery Trade Association website (www.archerytrade.org) 

Keep in mind. Arizona just recently hired Denise Raum to administer the NASP program and she has to work within the guidelines of the Arizona DNR. Each state is administered at different paces. 

Kentucky has over 750 schools involved and the majority shoot archery much longer than the 2 week program.


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## NASParchery (Mar 13, 2008)

*Over 3 million youth*

Over 3 million youth have been through the NASP program. NASP will be in over 5000 schools within 45 US states Victoria Australia, Nova Scotia & Saskatchewan Canada. (South Africa will join this summer)


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

NASParchery said:


> November 2004 - 27% of the 1500 (KY) students surveyed made their very first archery purchase within one year of going through the NASP program. We are administering another survey within 10 NASP states to follow up the 2004 survey. If you want to see the original survery it is on the Archery Trade Association website (www.archerytrade.org)
> 
> Keep in mind. Arizona just recently hired Denise Raum to administer the NASP program and she has to work within the guidelines of the Arizona DNR. Each state is administered at different paces.
> 
> Kentucky has over 750 schools involved and the majority shoot archery much longer than the 2 week program. Over 3 million youth have been through the NASP program. NASP will be in over 5000 schools within 45 US states Victoria Australia, Nova Scotia & Saskatchewan Canada. (South Africa will join this summer)


Jon is there a more rescent survey to show current trends and what today's kids are doing. The news you quoted was 3/5 years ago. There must have been much improvement since then.


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## dkaspar2000 (Feb 11, 2008)

*NASP to JOAD*

Just to let all of you know the kids can make the transitions from one to the other. I have two that have done it and can't wait for the saturday shooting times. My oldest hes 17 turning 18 this year turned out to be a pretty good shooter. They are just starting and shooting at 9M and hes been shooting 200+ he's up to a 259 now and we are waiting to order his equipment now, so that he can go to 18M. This is with a basic recurve no site and probably not a goo match arrow. Not bad for now. Last week he put all 3 arrows into less than a quarter circle, 1-X 2-10. He had shot previously but like the recurve and has adapted to the under chin hold.

My daughter who is 12 shoots well also 160+ range, she had learned completely in the NASP program. Her teacher there was very good and her scores did drop a little but have picked right back up. We have only been shooting JOAD for a month or so. They both look like they will be shooting for life.

Just wanted to share a good transition story with everyone. The real key is to give it time and the coaches in the JOAD explained to both of them why the different hold, ummmm now you will be shooting a little more than 18M in the summer and this technuic (SP) is one way to do it. Kids adapt pretty well, we need to be there to guide them.

With my oldest one coach asked him if he had ever been to Oklahoma, I had to explain to him.

Don


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

That's an inspiring story and I'm sure this is more often the case than not. I suspect that JOAD clubs would rather welcome new archers and make them feel at home than present a hostile environment.

This is great, and the way archery training and instruction should progress.


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

*Tight Group!*

I saw those three arrows that Don's son Lance shot. I don't think you could have slipped a piece of paper between them! Nice shootin', Tex!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

dkaspar2000 said:


> ... Kids adapt pretty well, we need to be there to guide them....
> Don


I think it would be helpful to provide archery instructors with a step by step process to transition from NASP archers to ASAP/JOAD.
The first step would be to understand the NASP process.
The next step would be to compare the NASP process with the ASAP/JOAD processes taught by NAA/NFAA certified Beginner and Intermeidate Archery Instructors.
The third step would be to create and document a process to transition from NASP to ASAP/JOAD that a guy like me could follow...simply...


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