# Muzzleloader, 100 gr. or 150 gr. pyrodex



## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

Any one shooting 150 gr. loads out of there muzzleloader. Was wanting to know if it was worth using the 1 extra pyrodex pellet to get that extra 5 to 6" in height at 200 yds. I plan on shooting a deer at around 175 yds. because where I sit the deer always come out accross a reclaim about 175 yds.,but could shoot 200 + also.
Some people were telling me with 150 gr. the accuracy suffers & do not shoot as good as with 100 (two pellets). I will be using a Scoped CVA Optma Pro magum 50 cal. using Power Belt 245 gr. copper hollow point bullets. 
Who is shooting 200 yds.?. 
Any info on this I could use would be appreciated.
Pizonarcher.


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

hey pizon i don't shoot pyrodex anymore but i do shoot 777 pellets and i shot both the 150 and 100 grains and i found the gun more comfortable and it grouped better than when i shot with the 150 grains. it tightened them up a bit more than with that 50 grains extra. most of the time when you talk to some of the pro's or ask questions you can usually find out which they use and for the most part most of them i have talked too prefer the 100 grains of 777 or pyrodex
rob k


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## Deer Stabber (Dec 24, 2003)

*Shoot the 150 grains!*

I shoot a CVA firebolt w/ 150 grains and 195 grain powerbelt (.45) and my rifle shoots 150 alot better then 100. Matter of fact everybody I hunt with shots 150. My father took a deer last year with his T/C Encore @ 237 yds. w/ 150 grains and a 245 grain built peferct shot never took the crosshairs off the deers body it shot that flat.


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## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

Robk, someone told me that they liked the 777 pelets better & seemed to shoot cleaner.

Deer stabber, are you & your father using Pyrodex or 777. 

On the trajectory chart with a 245 gr. HP Power Belt bullet, 0'ed at 150 will be 9.6 " low at 200, thats with 2 pellets pyrodex & with 3 pellets & zeroed at 150 it is 5.9 " low.
I guess time will tell once I start shooting, season starts after X-mas 12/27. I have never fired the gun yet, just bought it yesterday (nice to have a Cabela's' within a half hour away  ) I will be out this week or weekend sighting it in. 
Anyone else shooting 150 grains??.
Pizonarcher.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I have better accuaracy in my T/C Omega with 150 grains of Pyrodex but I've found that especially at longer ranges the PB Aerotips were better grouping than the HP's. In fact, in a couple of different rifles we found that the HP's could be inconsistent compared to the Aerotips.


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Deer Stabber said:


> I shoot a CVA firebolt w/ 150 grains and 195 grain powerbelt (.45) and my rifle shoots 150 alot better then 100. Matter of fact everybody I hunt with shots 150. My father took a deer last year with his T/C Encore @ 237 yds. w/ 150 grains and a 245 grain built peferct shot never took the crosshairs off the deers body it shot that flat.


That is pretty cool.

As for your question, I shoot 100 grains of Pyrodex out of my TC Encore with a PB (195 grains). I have not yet tried 150 grains. My thoughts are that I should try it because every gun has a personality and has different loads that will work.


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## hoytshooter03 (Oct 28, 2003)

I shoot a Knight Disc 50 caliber with 100 grauns of 777.

I am not going to be shooting this combination next season..I have found the 777 is dirtier than pyrodex.. Has anyone found similar results?

It seems that the problem occurs with pb 245 grain bullets..


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## J.W. Shooter (Feb 15, 2004)

I shoot 100 grains of 777 in my CVA Optima! I shoot the 240 grain Hornady XTP sabot! I have never tried 150 grains, but then again, I have never tried Pellets!


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## Deer Stabber (Dec 24, 2003)

*Yes*

We use pyrodex. My brothers gun didnt like his bullet of choice with 100 grains for some reason we are guessing sense you cant see the bullet it was tubbling, which inturn threw his groups way off. Sometimes not even hitting the target at 100yds. The target was a 4X8 sheet of plywood with a pie plate stapled to it. Go Figure.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I don't shoot that far but my Omega likes 100 gr. 777 with the heavier .50 cal Powerbelts. My brother shoots the 245 gr. XTP's.

At 200 yards keep in mind penetration. I'd look at the spire point controlled expansion bullets. At 200+ yards the angle of the target can be tricky. 

For the longer ranges I here the .45 is supposed to be the ticket. The ballistic coefficient is supposed to be much better.


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## raylandarcher (Jun 5, 2003)

Hey, pizonarcher I shoot triple 7 pellets and its good stuff.There is no sulfer in it like in black powder or pyrodex.Alot less corrosive and cleaner.But if you read the paper that comes with it,they only reccomend 100 grains of pellets.They reccomed 2- 50 grain pellets or one 50 grain and then one 30 grain or three 30 grainers.I shoot T/C Shock Wave 250 grain 50 caliber polymer tipped bullets and two 50 grain triple 7 pellets out of a scoped Knight Disc rifle and hold pretty good groups out to 150 or so.I think 100 grains would work just fine for you.You might have to just tweek your scope a little for the extra distance.Good Luck !!!!


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## 12ptDropTine (Mar 22, 2004)

Every firearm is different. I have a T/C Encore. Last year i was shooting 100gr of 777 with the 240gr XTP and getting 1" groups at 100yd. Then i asitched over to the 250 gr shockwave.......And got the same accuracy And BOY do they do a BIG number on deer. This year I let those 200 yd comercials get the better of me.....I tried 150 gr of 777 with the 250 gr shock wave...OUCH kicked pretty good......couldnt keep them on the paper at 200 yds. Dropped down to 150 gr of Pyrodex.........Still couldnt get any accuracy. Dropped back down to 100gr of 777.....1 inch groups at 100yd. T/C technical service tells me to sight that load in 3 inches high at 100 yd...and it will be in the kill zoe on a deer at 200 yd,,,,with plenty of KE to blow clear a whitetail........Funny thing is...I keep thinking i need that 200 d gun.....And I have never shott a deer at over 75 yds.......But if theyre out there I am gonna be ready....lol... Best thing is to just keep working up the best load for our particulas gun,.. I have seen identical looking guns prefer different loads.....youre gonna have to experiment with it till you find yours. Good luck Drop


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## xtrembowhntr (Jan 27, 2004)

this is all great info cause i'm getting an 50 cal. optima for christmas, and i have no idea what load to use. here is great forum with lots of info......

black powder forum


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## LFM (Jan 10, 2004)

There is a lot more to Muzzleloading than just choosing how much pyrodex or triple 7 to use... Some of it is the barrel twist your ML has... Most are 1:28 but some are 1:32 for 50 Cal. or others 1:30 for 45 Cal. while other have something different. Some have advise me that because my Traditions has a 1:32 twist that a lighter sabot will work well with it with only 100 grains or two 50 grain pellets of Triple 7. I just switched to the Triple 7 and seems for me to be less fouling and stuff but it is what you are use to others say other wise. I was also suugested that running an alcohol patch down the barrel to get the oil or lube out is best with either because the lube seems to hold the powder in the barrel otherwise. So far for me it seems to make a difference.

You really need a lot of time to test different sabots and powder charges t5o see just which ones seem to work best in you ML.

I am using the Precision Rifle Sabots they are to be the most accurate sabot out there. I like them because of the wide variety of sabots they have in their QT model from 180, 195, 215, 235, 250 and 300 for 50 Cal. I am shooting 215 with 100 grains of Triple 7 and is good to about 80 yards but have not really had the time to see just where they are out farther yet but maybe next year when I have more time to test these and others with different powder charges... These are availble from Cabela's they are called X-Tended Range Sabots... With the Triple 7 it is also recommended to use a 209 Primer only... If your ML has that option available...A friend has an Original Knight T-5 and he can't get a 209 conversion kit for it they say he can use a Musket Cap for a hotter burning cap but contact your manufacturer to be sure they say it is okay to use something other than a 209 Primer with the Triple 7...

Good Luck...
LFM


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

my buddy and i were just talking about triple 7 yesterday..i have not used it but i think i will try it..just to see...

I have a winchester x150: stainless fluted barrel and i shoot the gun alot..the pyrodex pellets i use seem to foul the bolt and the end of the barrel badley, about every 3rd shot i swab it and wipe off the bolt and barel..

I shoot the PB 275g .45 cal: aero tipped...groups are about 2inch at 100yard..
(more then likely user error) lol::::100g of pyrodex..shoots awsome..but i have never tried 150g of pyro..i just might have to check that out.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I have a tc omega 50cal ,I shoot 100grains of black mag 3 with 240 grain tc shock wave sabots. I have it sighted in zero at 100 yrd's. I took a nice doe and small buck with it this year . The doe was 104 yrd's I ranged her before the shot ,she came out in the cut corn field at 197 yrd's and feed my way ,At about 100yrd's I ranged her again 104 + - - a yrd and let her have it . Black mag is great powder a lot cleaner than 777 but cost about 2times the price.The late season comes back in Sat I cant wait . Good luck with your new gun .


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## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

Man, all this talk & its cold, snoey & windy out, I can't wait to go out & get a good shooting load, Basicly I going to use the Power belt 50 cal. 245 gr. arrow tip & the HP with 2 & then 3 Pyo/pellets. I love black powder FFG & always had better luck grouping with it but its hard not to use the pellets because it so easy & a lot cleaner. I will see which load is best for accuratcy. If its 2 pellets I would rather hold a little high on the deer then miss. With 2 pellets 0'ed at 150, said it will shoot 8.77 " low at 200, so even holding a inch or 2 over its back should get a good lung or heart shot, this 2 pellets would also put me 3.65 high at 100 & 2.57 high at 50.
With 3 pellets the chart said 1.28 high at 50 yds. 1.97 high at 100, 0 at 50, & -5.37 at 200 yds. & 15" low at 250. Man that sounds better, thats if it will shoot good groups.
When I get out & shoot I will let every one know the results,but I want to wait for a nice day, got two weeks till season starts.

Raylandarcher, what you been up to?, are you in for some indoor spot shooting ?. Sherwood shoots on Sun, Tue, & Fridays. then Moundsville starts the first of the year. We will have to get together sometime & go, I can give you some lessions at 20 yds.!!!   I think you could get hooked on it if you try it.

Pizonarcher.


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## rcd567 (Apr 14, 2004)

I shoot 3 pellets (150) grains of Triple 7 behind a Hornady SST 250 grain sabot out of my 50 caliber Encore. Shoots good to 200. Best three shot group was at a 150 yards (where I sight in), you could cover all three shots with an old fashioned silver dollar. Shoot it too much and it'll knock your fillings loose!


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

*50 cal---bullet---pyrodex*

I tested a 50 cal T/C Omega all summer getting ready for a Mule Deer Hunt in Colorado. I tried the 245 gn Hp Power Belt and never got good results. I went to the 295 gn areo tip and they shot great. I think more bullet bearing in the rifling helped this. I settled on 125 gns of loose pyrodex for my charge. I got outstanding results with this load. I tried more charge but things went downhill from there. I did take a 30" Mule Deer at 165 yards with open sights. Hope this will save you some time and money. Them dang bullets are about $1.00 a shot. Good Luck


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## 5 shot (Aug 11, 2002)

I shoot 100 grns of loose 777 and a 240 grn xtp. I shot three deer with this load this year and got complete penetration and large wound channels on all three. Closest shot was 45 yards longest was 75. I don't like to shoot much past 100 with my black powder guns so I can't say what you would gain by the extra powder. Most hunters I know like to keep loads around 90 to 100 grns of powder.


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## barbwire44 (Sep 4, 2002)

Pizonarcher, How ya been??? Hey muzzleloaders huh!! Well let me first say this if you bought the optima you have chosen wisely!!! Last year hunting club buddies all got together on a sunday morning to shoot the muzzleloaders, among the guns in the group we had 4 thompson center encores, 3- 50 calibers and 1- 45 caliber, we had blued barrels, stainless barrels, walnut stocks synthetic stocks etc... We had 3- cva optima pro's with a mix of barrels, we had 1 thompson center thunder hawk, we had 2 thompson center omega's one stainless laminated and one synthetic blued. As far as ammo went, we had a variety of powerbelts, precision rifle sabots, and the old hornady sabots. Powder was the same variety, pellets, pyrodex, triple seven etc.... And the results!!!! Were dissapointing to say the least, all guns were shot from sand bags and we all swapped guns, bullets, powders etc.... Every combination of shooter and projectile showed the optima's as the most accurate guns of the group!!!! And they were by far the cheapest, all the optimas were combo guns with cheap scopes and rings, and they outgrouped our $600 guns with $300 dollar scopes all day long..LOL!!!!! I came away upset as I have 600 dollars in my encore, $ 300 in my nikon scope, And $ 100 dollars in my mount. The rest of the group was pretty similar in feelings they had encore's and omega's with nikon's, leupolds, redfields and a burris. I have always been a thompson center fan and still am, but I did not enjoy all the rubbing the cva boys were giving us!!! The cva may look and feel like a cheaper gun but there's some magic in them barrel's!!!


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

I shoot a T/C Black Diamond and use the powerbelt 245gr with 100gr of 777. I have tried several different combinations of bullet weights, pyrodex and different gr of each powder. Last year, I used pyrodex with remington 303gr sabots and the 100gr seemed to fly best out to 150yds (as far as I shoot). This year when I tried the 777, I also switched to the powerbelts and the combination of 100gr of 777 and the 245gr bullets work well at my distance.

I don't think there is a good answer for everyone, its one of those things you'll have to go out and try yourself. My friend has a CVA that can't group with 100gr of 777 but put 150gr and he can punch holes!

each gun is different unfortunately.

Good luck, have fun.

Jon


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## culleng (Aug 29, 2003)

*pyrodex*

I shoot 100 grains of pyrodex with a 240 grain t/c hollowpoint out of my 50 caliber encore. The main difference that I see between 100 gr and 150 gr is 100 gr is a whole lot easier on my shoulder.  Keep in mind I am only shooting Oklahoma whitetails with this load.


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## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

Barbwire, what were the loads on the Optma, did they try 100 & 150 grains of pyrodex ??. 
I also have two TC guns, a older inline Scout (which can't shoot pyrodex or 209 primers) & a black Diamond, both have $300.00 + scopes. I will have a med priced (150.00)Nikon 2-7 scope on my Optma, with see through rings.

I have always used black powder FFG & the Scout will out shoot the Black Diamond, always used heavy bullets (370 gr. TC pre lubbed maxi ball, 90 gr. FFG & shot 1 1/2 -2 in. groups at 100 yds. off sand bags. Someone else told me the same thing about the Optma out shooting his Oncore, he said that he shot every load, & tryed every bullet on the market & his buddys Optma would still out shoot it, I talked to him at Cabela's & guess what he was buying  Yes a Optma Pro.

Gade, (Barbwire)tell me some loads they were using in the CVA Optmas, 2 or 3 pellets & the best groups with these & the bullets if you remember. I have a 50 cal. Pro mag. CVA recommends Power Belt bullets for best accuracy, but I do beleive they make the bullets so take it form there.
Will be trying 3 pellets first 245 gr. Aero tip Power Belt (break it in right off the bat with what I want to use) & if I get some good enought groups at 150 & try some shots at 200 yds. I won't be even trying 2 pellets. The gun will be on sand bags & so will my shoulder  .

Draw29, yes counting tax + powder more then a buck a shot.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

pizonarcher,
From what you listed I see the bullet drops 10 inches from 200 to 250. That's right much drop in a short distance. For me he'd have to be in side of 220 for me to be comfortable. Unless of course he's bedded or somebody is ranging him as I prepare for the shot. Just thinking out loud because I don't shoot that far around here. Another thought if ya shoot a 1.5 inch group at a 100 yards that's 3 inches at 200 with some serious drop over 200.


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## irishjim (Sep 13, 2004)

*Accuracy & Energy*

Either 100 gr or 150 gr can be sighted to deliver a sabot or conical at a 200 yard target. 

The key is accuracy of the bullet being shot and the foot pounds of energy being delivered to the intended target. 

The general rule I follow is if I can put my shots into a 6-8" ring at 200 yards using a normal field hold conditions ( off hand or with a shooting stick not benched) thats acceptable accuracy. I then opt for the heaviest grain bullet and powder load that will keep me in that 6-8" ring without flyers. 

I shoot a Thompson Center Omega 50 caliber with 140 gr of 777 behind a Hornady 44 caliber 300 grain sabot (green). This load develops approximately 1900-2000 Feet Per Second at the barrel and aproximately 2600 -2800 foot pounds of energy. At 150 yards it still carries 1500 FPS and 1800 foot pounds of energy. The estimated FPOE at 200 yards is close to 1500. I seem to get flyers from the sabot blowing out if I use 150 gr of 777.

The Thompson Center sabot in 300 grain has very similar ballistics but is much harder to load than the Hornady and seems to have more flyers even down to 120 gr of 777.

If I believe my shots are going to be 100 - 150 yards I prefer solid conicals in 385 grain, the Great Plains bullet from Hornady. It gives similar knock down power but is about 1700 FPS at the barrel with a similar load of 777.

If you do any research on the old buffalo hunters you will find they used heavy bullets with black powder loads of under 100 grains to take buffalo at ranges beyond 200 yards. Deer don't need the same knock down power of buffalo but my objective is always to acheive the highest possible foot pounds of energy at the target rather than a high feet per second using a light weight bullet. Penetration is greater with higher bullet mass and less chance the bullet will fragment. 

As stated earlier by setting you sights at 3-4" above at 100 yards you will compensate for the overall drop and be about an equal amount (3-4") low at 200 yards.


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## roger46982 (Aug 30, 2004)

Try the Percision Bullets in either the QT's or the deadcenters, you will be amazed at how much better the tragectory is even staying with 100 gr. loads.


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## barbwire44 (Sep 4, 2002)

Pizonarcher said:


> Barbwire, what were the loads on the Optma, did they try 100 & 150 grains of pyrodex ??.
> 
> 
> Gade, (Barbwire)tell me some loads they were using in the CVA Optmas, 2 or 3 pellets & the best groups with these & the bullets if you remember. I have



Pizonarcher, My memory is not the greatest but I know for sure they were all shooting pyrodex pellets this year during gun season, One guy did use 130 grains of triple 7 while we were shooting but didn't see a difference and they all wanted the ease of use that comes with the pellets. I tried every load under the sun that day in my encore and could not get close to the grouping the optima's were getting. I settled on the precision rifle bullets, I am using the dead centers, They didn't group any different than the powerbelts, and I ordered 250 of them to test so I am going to shoot them until there gone..LOL!!! As far as groups go, at 100 yards that day it wasn't surprising when the optima's would touch 3 out a 5, alot of keyholeing. One thing to watch is the primers. They claim some of the primers are causing the occasional flyers....? I haven't noticed any with the winchester primers or the cci's.


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## Broncho10 (Nov 11, 2004)

I had to download from 150 gr. of pyrodex pellets to 100 grains. I had a flyer with about every 2 or 3 shots with 150 grains. When I changed to 100 gr. and switched from powerbelts to the 200 gr. t/c shockwaves I started shooting 3/4" groups at 100 yards. I have it sighted in at 2" high at 100yds and it hits dead on at 175 yds. My CVA firebolt .45 ultra mag does a good enough job for me with 100 gr. of pyrodex.


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## hoytshooter23 (Oct 29, 2004)

Triple 7 Is a hotter load. I switched from 150 grain of pyrodex to 100 of triple 7 out of my Knight Super Disc .45 Using Hornady SST/ML bullets at 245 Grains. I lost 2 Inches at 200 yards but I know it is more accurate due to the better, and more equalized powder burn getting a cosistant ignition every time. If I were you I would go with 100 of Triple 7, or if your gun remains accurate kick it up to 150. And anyone looking for a new bullet, check out the hornady its a sweet one. Dropped deer at 135 and about 175 with my gun.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Hey Pizonarcher-

I shoot a Austin-Halleck with 100gr of 777 with 209 Winchester primer and 240g XTP Sabots and get nice one to one and a quater inch groups at 100yds on a bench. Accuracy is excellent at longer ranges too. I think it was said well earlier that all guns are different and all have their sweet loads--we just have to find them. It took me awhile to find the right combo for this one,(150 grains of pyro was a definate NOT, couldn't even stay on paper!) but it shoots great now. I really like the 777 compared to the pyrodex too. Less mess and fuss.

And you thought I was all about bows.....  

Good luck finding your sweet combo!


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## Popapi (Jul 19, 2004)

culleng said:


> I shoot 100 grains of pyrodex with a 240 grain t/c hollowpoint out of my 50 caliber encore. The main difference that I see between 100 gr and 150 gr is 100 gr is a whole lot easier on my shoulder.  Keep in mind I am only shooting Oklahoma whitetails with this load.


Me to(encore .50cal,T/C HP,100gr. of pyrodex) I couldn't have said it better. Gone


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## kmbr45acp (May 14, 2004)

I'm shooting a Knight Revolution .50 with 100 gr of 777. Shooting 250 grain T/C Shockwaves. I tried 150 grains, but groups really suffered. I think 150 grains, even with pellet's might be a little too much powder for it all to burn in the barrell. To check this shoot over snow, or through an old white sheet. IF there is any black in the snow or on the sheet you are loading more powder than you can burn. Backing off might improve groups. 

The Shockwaves are awesome. I shot a doe last Saturday at 100 yards, quartered away, went in just in front of the last rib, and stopped just under the hide on the other side. Perfect mushroom, and devestating damage. I'm impressed.


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## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

Pinwheel 12, Austin Halleck, I was going to buy one of them once, heard they were good shooting guns.

knbr45acp, good idea on the snow shooting or through a white sheet.

Done some quick shooting after bore sighting yesterday just to get it close.
Used 3 Pyro/pellets & 295 gr. Power belt aero tips. (decided to go with the 295 instead of 245 gr., only losing a little over 1 in. at 200 yds.)

First shot was 7 " high, clicked scope down 2 nd. shot 5 in. high, clicked again 3" high, shot 3 more rounds & as you can see the center hole has 4 bullets holes in it. WOW I like that, talk about cutting holes!!!.  This shooting was off of sand bags. My Black Diamond & Scout cut holes but not like this, then again I never shot PB in them, only sabots & pre lubbed maxi balls.
I clicked down again trying to get it 2 " high at 50 & thats the hole in the orange dot, 1" high, clicked up & was 2 " high, end of shoting. Man this was to easy  , hope it wasn't a fluke. I guess if you shoot a bow good a gun is easier right, haha. 
I will get out this weekend at longer ranges, & see what it does. 
I may try 777 pelets, I noticed the the ramrod would stick out about 1/4 " farther with every shot, don't know if it was pyrodex build up or the plastic wad on the power belts, but I think this is pretty normal. I cleaned after every 3 shot with a rusty duck cleaning patch (even though the PB bullet really slid down the barrel with ease.)
The only thing I don't like about the power belts is a $buck a shot, won't be shooting to many. Any one have some 295 gr. aero tips for sale cheap  
Pizonarcher.


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## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

*ttt*


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