# Yoke Tuning a Hoyt?



## Reverend

*Been there, done that...*

By the way, yes...
Cams are synched
Played with timing, purposely mis-timing
I've tried moving rest far left, far right, and in between
Adjusted the poundage up and down (ACC 3-49, 27 in., 100 gr. tip)
Played with timing on fall away
Adjusted the hand position on the grip in, out, relaxed, tight... 
Moved nocking point up... down
Checked for nock pinch with loop
Powder tested for fletch contact. Arrow is clean
Bare shaft tested...

But still, in all cases and with every adjustment, I get the same result; *tail left tear.*

This is why I suspect cam lean to be a possible cause.


----------



## hdrat

*poor paper tear*

What is your bow set up?. Lbs.,d. l., let off.


----------



## Brown Hornet

Do you have the one piece wood grip on? Take it off if you do....they aren't always straight and will cause a tear that won't change....went through that on my buddies Vectrix and his Katera. 

Do NOT serve the yoke....just adjust the opposite side of the tear....but I would shoot it without the grip first.


----------



## NoSecondBest

Brown Hornet said:


> Do you have the one piece wood grip on? Take it off if you do....they aren't always straight and will cause a tear that won't change....went through that on my buddies Vectrix and his Katera.
> 
> Do NOT serve the yoke....just adjust the opposite side of the tear....but I would shoot it without the grip first.


Brown Hornet: You have to serve the yoke or you can't do any adjusting. It will just shorten but won't put any pressure on a specific side.


----------



## Reverend

Brown Hornet said:


> Do you have the one piece wood grip on? Take it off if you do....they aren't always straight and will cause a tear that won't change....went through that on my buddies Vectrix and his Katera.
> 
> Do NOT serve the yoke....just adjust the opposite side of the tear....but I would shoot it without the grip first.



Thanks for input BH and others...
There's no grip. I use the side plates.
This is what I don't understand, if I adjust one side of the Y yoke, without serving it, won't the floating effect undo the effects? Isn't this only used to adjust the timing? Help me understand this?


----------



## -bowfreak-

What is your setup? What rest are you shooting? Does the cam seem to be leaning bad? I really doubt that "normal" cam lean is your problem. What I mean by that is, I don't think you could take it out with a static yoke adjustment. Maybe the axle holes are drilled wrong? I don't know? Give us more information if possible......maybe something will click with somebody.


----------



## CoppertoneSPF15

Two things to try:

1. Take a look at the shim washers on either side of the cams. Can you see any gaps between the washer/cam/inner limb face? If so, you'll need to go pick up some nylon washers. You can find them at Ace Hardwares. Osh has it too. 

On the bottom cam, the thinner washer should be on the left and the thicker washer on the right. On the top, the two washers are about the same thickness. The one of the right is a hair thicker I think. Can't remember off the top of my head. 

2. Try swapping the limb halves. Left to right on top and bottom. While swapping the limb halves, check to make sure the limbs were seated properly and if there's any play once fitted into the pocket. There shouldn't be any. 

See if either of those changes anything.


----------



## denn10

on top of this have you used an arrow or something to put on the side of the cam and see if its off?? on a draw board you can check at full draw, i would suggest actually checking this at rest and full draw to see if there is cam lean since you never said you actually put in a draw board and at rest and checked.


----------



## Brown Hornet

NoSecondBest said:


> Brown Hornet: You have to serve the yoke or you can't do any adjusting. It will just shorten but won't put any pressure on a specific side.


Not true....the set I just took off wasn't served.....and a lot of Hoyts big guns don't have theirs served. I know Cousins doesn't....Braden doesn't....Reo doesn't....pretty sure Jesse and Shane don't....Jamie V doesn't

You don't need to twist one side to the moon and back to get it right....it's usually only a few twist difference. If it's not....and you have a floating yoke...something else is off.


----------



## Brown Hornet

Reverend said:


> Thanks for input BH and others...
> There's no grip. I use the side plates.
> This is what I don't understand, if I adjust one side of the Y yoke, without serving it, won't the floating effect undo the effects? Isn't this only used to adjust the timing? Help me understand this?


Don't worry about what the floating part is doing.....

Start over....put even twist in each side....say 6. Then add a few more to the sight side. Check the timing....shoot it through paper.


----------



## Reverend

Thanks for replies. I'll try what was suggested, and post progress. I'm not new to bow tuning, but this bow is giving me some difficulty. The interesting thing is that it was shooting fine (bullet holes) when I first got it. Now something has gone awry. For general info:
RH 28 in. Vect XL
60#
GK Platinum Premier, with horse shoe launchers set up as drop away.
WC strings
String leeches on strings and cables
27 in. ACC 3-49 with 100 gr. tips.
A2A in spec. 35 1/2 in.
BH 7 3/8 in. Keep in mind that this measurement is to riser as I have sideplates and not the standard one-piece grip. 
75% LO


----------



## Reverend

*Update:*

Last night I saw a hairline gap between bottom cam and limb, so I removed the cam, and added a shim to fill up the space. While I was at it, I decided to swap limbs. All limbs are tight, correctly seated and axles are straight. 
After customary adjustments to get timing correct, I tried paper tuning again. Guess what? Still nock left tear! Arrrggghhh! 

Tonight I'll try twisting the right side of the yoke a few times and see what happens. I'm assuming that I will twist one side, then re-time the cams, and finally test shoot through paper again...

I'll keep you posted...


----------



## vulcan320

On both my V-tec and Vulcan I was able to put differing twist amounts on either side of the floating yoke to straighten cam lean. They don't have the original strings anymore. The twists haven't "equalized" after many shots and times in the press. Hope it works the same for you.:smile:


----------



## nccrutch

Use a static yoke and add 2 twists to the lt-side (string side). Add more if needed. The tear will go away.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Ok I guess I need to chime in here.

A floating yoke can be tuned like a static.

As long as you retain pressure on the main cable, seating the yoke in the crease it will remain "static".

One thing you can do to start is press the bow and pull the main cable in a left OR right fashion as you relax the press to help it "center".

After that you can add twists to one leg of the yoke by keeping it tight as you twist. There may be some equalization over say 200 shots but then it usually stays put.

Also one thing to remeber this is not a dual cam systen where all the lean can be "yoked out", there is one yoke and the botton will have lean reguardless seeing the cables are being pulled in a certain direction by the cable guard. The top cam will need to be tuned to the bottom cam.

I believe this is why Hoyt may use a Floating Yoke. One it is simply a stronger yoke(not saying that a Static is weak just that a floater is stronger) and two if you have to many twists in one side then it has no choice but to equalize. A creased main string is only going to hold so much tension before it allows twists from one side to slip by the crease to the other side.

reverend, I am sure you will get this figured out as you always do. I would add a few twists in the yoke leg on the left side while retaining pressure on the yoke leg so that the twists stay on the left side. This should help providing you are not getting interference from anything else. Keep us posted and let see if we cant get you running true.


----------



## Reverend

Thanks for input. I didn't get a chance to play with it last night. You know the Lord's work takes precendence :wink:. But I hope to jump into it today, perhaps tomorrow. 
I guess I can clip the yoke with one of those acco clips to prevent one side from slipping or equalizing. Furthermore, as I'm thinking about whether or not the yoke will equalize over time, I suppose I can mark the yokes with some whiteout or something and check it periodically to see if it moved from the reference point. 

BTW Thinking about the static versus floating; if the floating yoke will not move, then what is the real benefit of it over a static one?


----------



## revwilder

Hey Rev,
The only positive of the floating yoke is the strength, since it has more strands unlike the static which separates the cable in half.

I know H&M Bowstrings serves his floating yoke to make it static.

God Bless, Keep up the good work for the Lord. Knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Reverend said:


> Thanks for input. I didn't get a chance to play with it last night. You know the Lord's work takes precendence :wink:. But I hope to jump into it today, perhaps tomorrow.
> I guess I can clip the yoke with one of those acco clips to prevent one side from slipping or equalizing. Furthermore, as I'm thinking about whether or not the yoke will equalize over time, I suppose I can mark the yokes with some whiteout or something and check it periodically to see if it moved from the reference point.
> 
> BTW Thinking about the static versus floating; if the floating yoke will not move, then what is the real benefit of it over a static one?


Cause most of the time you can slap on a floaterand it sets itself.

Some have found going from a 8" floater to a 10" makes a bit of difference.

The key points of a floater is its strength, its ability to no let on side be real short and the other real long, and its simplicity. 85% of floater users will not have a problem with it.

The clip may not be a great idea as the yoke may slip a bit if you have to many twists on one side. The friction applied tot heyoke at the crease will only hold so many twists to one side before physics take over and starts to allow them to slide by to the other side.

You will get this, you said it was shooting great before so it has probably just settled some.

If you do want to play with the static idea you can serve up about 3/4" from the junction of the main string and yoke. just make sure to center the yoke string first. This way if you do not like it then you can snip it off and return to a full floater.


----------



## -bowfreak-

All of this info is very good. I am keeping up with the thread for my own benefit. You can never know enough as far as I am concerned. Anyway.....is there a possibility that you could have a cracked top right (or bottom left I guess) limb? The yoke being a problem is new to me with Hoyts. I have never had an issue with any Hoyt I have ever owned with the floating yoke. Hoyt Thompson makes a good point, I just personally have never seen it happen.

Keep us informed.


----------



## Reverend

*Floating Yoke Limits?*



Hoyt Thompson said:


> The friction applied tot heyoke at the crease will only hold so many twists to one side before physics take over and starts to allow them to slide by to the other side.



I wonder if the parallel-limb design, coupled with the shorter A2A, causes the floater to equalize the loads more than on the longer A2A non-parallel limbed bows? I would think that the longer bows, by design, have less torque on the cables (at least less acute angles induced by the cable guard / slide). This in turn would allow them to move less over a wider range of twisting, since there is less of an angle. The more acute the angle, (i.e. shorter A2A, parallel design), the more the floating yoke wants to equalize a load. This is just a theory at this time. Perhaps this is why some guys have found a 10 in. yoke to be more adjustable? 

Update:
The reason I say this is because it seems to me that the twists I put on the left side of the yoke want to equalize into the right yoke. Allow me to explain: I seemed to have gotten rid of most of the nock left tear (PTL!):banana:. (Many thanks to those of you that have guided me through this.:thumbs_up) However it is still tearing about a 1/4 in. left. When trying to do one more twist on the left yoke, I think I'm losing it's effect after it settles, which is after the first shot. 

Out of curiousity, I measured both yokes after adjustments. Left and right yokes were both 8 1/16 in. After the first shot, I remeasured and left yoke was 8 1/8 in. while right yoke became 8 in. I only did this a few times, but in those instances it defaults to that measurement. I feel that if I can get one more twist I can fix the tear. But as of now I've been unable to. This might be the limit of all I can do while tuning with the floating yoke? 
I'm wondering if now, I can tune out that 1/4 in. tear with rest adjustments? I really don't want to serve the yoke, but am wondering if there's not another way? 

In fairness I did not spend alot of time with this... and maybe I just have to put some more time and adjustments into it. 

As far as limb cracks... I doubt it, because I swapped the limbs, and still got the same results. Not only that but Hoyt limbs don't crack...:wink:

I'm getting there little by little...


----------



## Ricemonger

i just read through this post, and it might be a day late and $ short, but i had almost the same problem! Come to find out it was my fall-away rest. It was hitting the shelf and comming back up and hitting the arrow in flight. Put a new rest on and was getting clean shots through paper. Just a thought. Good luck!!


----------



## Bonz

One thing that could also be a possibility is the height at which your arrow bisects the rest hole or berger hole. The middle of the arrow is supposed to cross the middle of the berger hole. I have noticed when paper tuning that if the arrow is above the hole by a little bit, it tends to give a left tear thru paper. If it is right where it is supposed to be (middle of arrow/middle of berger hole) it will paper tune close to the middle of the riser shelf. I have read that when paper tuning to adjust the vertical part of the tear first and then the left and right. Right now on my setup the bottom of the arrow is at the middle of the berger hole and while I still can shoot bullet holes, my blazers are very close to hitting the riser. I am a right handed shooter. When I get new strings and cables on I will be taking my own advice and hopefully get the arrow more centered and still get bullets.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Reverend said:


> I wonder if the parallel-limb design, coupled with the shorter A2A, causes the floater to equalize the loads more than on the longer A2A non-parallel limbed bows?
> 
> I'm wondering if now, I can tune out that 1/4 in. tear with rest adjustments? I really don't want to serve the yoke, but am wondering if there's not another way?
> 
> I'm getting there little by little...


Now you are thinking along the right path. You are correct in that the shorter A2As will have more cable load.
Also you should be able to get the rest of it out with a few tweaks of the rest.
Now what will really blow your mind is that after you broadhead tune, you mayfind the you paper tune is off. But which would you rather have? good BH flight or, bullet holes in paper? LOL

Little by little is the way to go, change something too much and you will wind up with no hair.



Ricemonger said:


> i just read through this post, and it might be a day late and $ short, but i had almost the same problem! Come to find out it was my fall-away rest. It was hitting the shelf and comming back up and hitting the arrow in flight. Put a new rest on and was getting clean shots through paper. Just a thought. Good luck!!


Yep and a lot of people have this problem with a drop away that contacts the shelf. More times than not if you set up a drop away with the bottom half of the berger hole showing underneath the arrow shaft you will provide clearance for this issue.



Bonz said:


> One thing that could also be a possibility is the height at which your arrow bisects the rest hole or berger hole. The middle of the arrow is supposed to cross the middle of the berger hole. I have noticed when paper tuning that if the arrow is above the hole by a little bit, it tends to give a left tear thru paper. If it is right where it is supposed to be (middle of arrow/middle of berger hole) it will paper tune close to the middle of the riser shelf. I have read that when paper tuning to adjust the vertical part of the tear first and then the left and right. Right now on my setup the bottom of the arrow is at the middle of the berger hole and while I still can shoot bullet holes, my blazers are very close to hitting the riser. I am a right handed shooter. When I get new strings and cables on I will be taking my own advice and hopefully get the arrow more centered and still get bullets.


Like I said before some rests will allow full clearance and some will bounce back. It is a trial and error type of tune. If you cant get it at dead level then raise your nock and your rest to 90* with the shaft in the upper half of the hole. Since you raised the nock you will also need to re creep tune the bow to make sure the cams are not inducing nock travel.

Like I said trial and error tuning with some drop aways.


----------



## Reverend

*Update & Some More Questions*

Success... for now. :dancing: After further experimentation, I'm finally shooting decent holes through paper. :thumbs_up 

BTW Thanks to all who weighed in on this. You guys are top notch, and once again demonstrate why AT is such a great place...

What I did notice throughout this process was just how much yoke tuning affects good flight. I always thought that the floating yoke centered itself, with no need for fine tuning. Was I wrong. No other changes to the rest, grip, spine, drop away, nocking point, DW, etc., affected flight more, except "cam timing." Amazing! If the yoke is not set right, no other changes can correct the errant flight. And by the same token, when the yoke is set right, it seems like not even small changes to the rest can get it out of tune. 

This is probably why it would be a good idea to paper tune first... then to go to a secondary tuning method such as "walk-back" tuning or similar method. 

Additionally, after looking back on this I've developed a little theory: I suspect that my Vect XL got out of tune while I pressed it. Since I naturally thought that the yoke would center itself, I never really paid attention to it, or its position. This is why it left me scratching my head as to how bad out of tune it had gotten. 

For further discussion on the subject, I'd like to know if this tuning challenge is only evident with the shorter A2A or parallel-limbed Hoyts? And I guess a follow-up question would be: Do all short A2A Hoyts need to be yoke tuned this way, or are there a few exceptions?


----------



## hunter11

I can't believe you had to go this long before you got the correct information esp. here on AT. I just read thru your and the other posts. But yes...an Alpha 32 ( not mine) had to have a static yoke served in, by the dealer, to get rid of a left tear. This is not a Hoyt problem but any bow's cams have to be lean tuned if they do not match enough that it causes a centershot problem that cannot be corrected or if it can be corrected causes the arrow to be wildly left or right of center of the shelf. Been ther and done that on many bows! Good luck and shoot well.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

hunter11 said:


> I can't believe you had to go this long before you got the correct information esp. here on AT. I just read thru your and the other posts. But yes...an Alpha 32 ( not mine) had to have a static yoke served in, by the dealer, to get rid of a left tear. This is not a Hoyt problem but any bow's cams have to be lean tuned if they do not match enough that it causes a centershot problem that cannot be corrected or if it can be corrected causes the arrow to be wildly left or right of center of the shelf. Been ther and done that on many bows! Good luck and shoot well.


Bet you it could have been tuned with a floater as well.

just depends on you level of pateince and experiance with hoyts and floaters.

Like I said in a previous post in this thread, "Most will be able to tune with a floater" as it tends to eliminate the need for a lot of user input.

You will find one or two out of the dozen that needs a little coaxing.

I do not beileve it took him long to find the info he needed just has a job and the Lords work to handle before his tuning could take place.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Reverend said:


> Success... for now. :dancing: After further experimentation, I'm finally shooting decent holes through paper. :thumbs_up
> 
> BTW Thanks to all who weighed in on this. You guys are top notch, and once again demonstrate why AT is such a great place...
> 
> What I did notice throughout this process was just how much yoke tuning affects good flight. I always thought that the floating yoke centered itself, with no need for fine tuning. Was I wrong. No other changes to the rest, grip, spine, drop away, nocking point, DW, etc., affected flight more, except "cam timing." Amazing! If the yoke is not set right, no other changes can correct the errant flight. And by the same token, when the yoke is set right, it seems like not even small changes to the rest can get it out of tune.
> 
> This is probably why it would be a good idea to paper tune first... then to go to a secondary tuning method such as "walk-back" tuning or similar method.
> 
> Additionally, after looking back on this I've developed a little theory: I suspect that my Vect XL got out of tune while I pressed it. Since I naturally thought that the yoke would center itself, I never really paid attention to it, or its position. This is why it left me scratching my head as to how bad out of tune it had gotten.
> 
> For further discussion on the subject, I'd like to know if this tuning challenge is only evident with the shorter A2A or parallel-limbed Hoyts? And I guess a follow-up question would be: Do all short A2A Hoyts need to be yoke tuned this way, or are there a few exceptions?


Yes Yoke tuning on any bow is a critical step that most do not even attempt. If you go the the Spot Hogg page and read some of their posted newsletters you should find one on yoke tuning, but called cam lean tuning, I think it is newsletter #13.

I am sure that you will find that most would agree with your hypothesis of the yoke and short A2A bows. You will find that most competition bows (tradition limb angle and longer A2A) will have less offset torque induced by the cable guard, thus less tinkering with the yoke on a floater setup.

Glad you got it and if you need more help, we are here for you bro.


----------



## Wateroksnmud

Am I understanding this right? On my AM32, with the slip yoke, I can still twist one side to fix cam lean?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Wateroksnmud said:


> Am I understanding this right? On my AM32, with the slip yoke, I can still twist one side to fix cam lean?


to an extent yes.


----------



## jim46ok

*Check out this Hoyt Cam Lean..*

Hi, all. I just put a Hoyt on my KWIK-SHOOTER and found a disturbing bit of cam lean. I have served the floating yoke and twisted to remove lean from top cam, but bottom cam is still pretty bad. Full 1/4" using straightedge.I can't imagine the axles are drilled crooked (measure the same with calipers), and sceptical of cable slide causing it all. Limb ends are visibly crooked, as is cam lean, with the naked eye. Please note the DRAW STOP in picture, not centered on string at all... Not being Hoyt experienced, I'd appreciate any help in getting this customer's bow made right. The Laser Draw tuning on the KWIK-SHOOTER shows very little nock travel, but bow sure shoots inconsistently. Like 2-4" at 20 yards, shot from our shooting machine. HELP!! Thanks! KWIK-SHOOTER.COM


----------



## jim46ok

*Hoyt Cam Lean Fixed!*

Yup, we were right. That amount of cam lean on any bow is not a good thing. My customer took his Hoyt to a reputable dealer/shop in Idaho Falls, Idaho, and came home with a bow ready to HUNT with. Just a plug, I know, but putting the bow on the KWIK-SHOOTER told all the story. Think we just sold another.....

Word of caution: to anyone experiencing Cam Lean, better pay close attention to how much your bow has, and decide how much you are willing to trust. I don't like any at all, and check my bows at partial/full draw on a weekly basis. It just gives me peace of mind to know what I am shooting with.
Good Luck!


----------



## ngurb

*yoke and alpha 32*

i can't help but post after reading this yoke tuning post. i am where Reverend was. 1 1/2" straight left tear at 8ft, 10ft, etc. i ignored it at first wanting to see group shooting at longer distance and it is off. slight kick shooting and flight at thirty and fourty yards. its off! checked and re-checked everything i can check. alphamax 32-70 pounds, 28"acc 3-60, 100 grain .
i had a ripcord on it, took it apart, reset it, retied the set twice. podwer tested for contact with no issues. bare shaft and blazer shaft tear exact same. took it off put a nap quicktune 3000 on. same exact results. could move either rest inside and outside of center without changing tear. bare shaft tested with same tear. i ordered a second hoyt grip that was cut different than the stock grip even though they were supposed to be the same. same tear, then took that off and shot off the riser, same tear. i thought this new hoyt bow must have more octane and just needed a stiffer arrow. i cut the arrow length down, and when that didn't work took the point weight down. that didn't work so i lowered draw weight. every adjustment i have checked and the cam timing is good. cams are coming in great and the valley has been good. i have never had trouble like this in my life. tuned hundreds of bows. my last two bowtechs had some cam lean but shot perfect bullet holes and fixed blade broadheads shot out a mile, (wish i would have never sold my allegaince). this no doubt has a little cam lean, but why will it not shoot. even if you can tune in the top cam with yoke tuning, the bottom cam is on it's own. spot hogs Q 13 on cam lean is very informative, but in the end you're suck with the design you buy. some work some don't. i am pissed to spend this money and not have it shoot by "normal" tuning methods. i know i may have the 1 out of 50 that's not right, but i know how to rig up bows and i am ready to throw this in the river. too close to season to send back to hoyt or start over. i am not a spot guy, if this thing can't shoot fixed blade broadheads it's useless to me. input welcome and needed.


----------



## Reverend

*Little by Little*



ngurb said:


> i can't help but post after reading this yoke tuning post. i am where Reverend was. 1 1/2" straight left tear at 8ft, 10ft, etc. ...
> i am not a spot guy, if this thing can't shoot fixed blade broadheads it's useless to me. input welcome and needed.



Brother I feel your pain. But for whatever its worth, "don't give up." In the end you will add to your tuning expertise, and have a bow that will shoot lights out. A suggestion: reread posts #8, 11, 16, 21, 24-25. I suspect your problem will go away when you add twists to the sight side of your yoke. Begin with 3 then see how it goes. Don't forget to retime cams as you make these twists.
You will get it tuned, unless there's something wrong with it.


----------



## WidowMaker

I put my AM35 on my draw station, and I noticed my string is tracking off to the left of the top cam at full draw. Can anyone give any pointers?


----------



## ngurb

*am32*

i guess the worst thing for me is i took it out of the box and rigged it up centershot straight down the riser, and loop height at straight 90 degrees. i shot two arrows, one 1/4" tear left, made one little tweak to the rest, the next a perfect hole. after shooting it for about two weeks i started to stretch my shots out to 40 and 50 and noticed the kick in flight. went back to paper tune and it was off. 
my question is if this floating yoke settled out once, why couldn't it each time it is tuned in, and each time it is put in a press? 
i am going to adjust the yoke and see, going to wait until tommorrow so i have a clean head to start tuning. still second guessing everything and you all know that doesn't help. i'll let you know if it cleans up. <--<<rob


----------



## ngurb

*hoyt*

couldn't help but try tonight. 3 hours later no soup. both the left and right side floating yoke measured 8 1/16" with the stock twists before any adjustments were made. i pressed and put three twists in the sight side yoke to help even out cam lean. there are no noticable gaps or spaces in the cams and the limbs are seated tight. within three shots the left and right yokes evened out to both 8". i put three more twists in the sight side yoke, and about 15 shots later the left and right yokes were even at 7 15/16". this was enough twists that i was now out of timing within the cams and was getting about 1/2" high tear with the 1" left tear. i timed the cams back in, retset my drop away, and now have a 3/4" straight left tear. better than 1 1/2", but this is ridiculous. 

next step is to secure the float with a serving so i can only put twists and pressure to the sight side, without the cable evening out. 
unlike reverend i was not able to keep the extra pressure on the left side, they simply evened out. maybe the extra 10 pounds in draw weight, or the shorter a2a bow?? this yoke tune didn't work on mine. 
i can't be the only one??? post people post. i can kill deer with this setup,there is just no reason i shouldn't get a perfect bullet hole.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

I am interested if you did the process correctly.

when you press the bow you need to maintain tension on the buss so that the yoke stays seated in the saddle.

If you let pressure off of this then it will slip. also try one twist at a time. everytime you press the bow the string strands come a little loose and the resettling of these strands can allow the yoke to move.

Let me know how that works.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

And if you are doing this with the stock FUSE Strings you need a whole lot of break in on these strings. Good strings just some take forever to finally settle down to perform this task.


----------



## Reverend

ngurb said:


> next step is to secure the float with a serving so i can only put twists and pressure to the sight side, without the cable evening out.
> unlike reverend i was not able to keep the extra pressure on the left side, they simply evened out.


Maybe you misunderstood, but I did finally serve the yoke. I simply got too paranoid that it would slip, since I tend to press my bow a lot. In fact, although some guys would advise against it, I would serve the yoke and make it static. At least this way you'll know if it tunes or not. You could always un-serve it later if you want...

Also make sure that as you add 1-2 twists to the left yoke, that you retime your cams. Then shoot a few arrows to settle it in. Then go to the paper tuner.


----------



## archer58 in pa

ngrub,
I am one of the minority Hoyt shooters that could not get the floating yoke to stay seated for me. I had a Trykon and have a Katera currently.
The Trykon gave me a 3/4" left tear all the time and arrow flight was erratic.
I fixed by serving the floater together and tuning out the lean. I later got a set of WC strings w/ a static yoke. It shot perfect.
The Katera came w/ the static yoke from the previous owner and I was able to get a perfect bullet hole after a couple twists to the yoke. It has stayed that way. So, to be fair about it , I didn't have the floater on the Katera , but I don't have any concerns there either.

If your yoke keeps moving , it MAY be caused by wear. It's just a guess.
For what it's worth , I'd get a static system. It's a set it and forget it fix.


----------



## Mr. X-Ring

*Left Tear*

A friend of mine had a new 737 and could not get broadheads to fly with the field points. He could not get a clean tear through paper no matter what he tried. He is a good shooter and overall excellent bow mechanic. We went through everything from draw weight, timing, centershot, different shafts, different broadheads.

In the end, it was a call to Hoyt that solved the issue. The riser was actually bent. You can check this by putting a straight edge from the side of the bottom limb pocket to the top. If the straight edge does not lie flat, the riser is bent/warped.

Not sure if this will help you, but it is an easy thing to check and may end your frustration.


----------



## ngurb

*ttt*

i am going to put it back where it was, 8 1/16" yokes, serve the yoke so there is no slip, re time the cams, re set the drop away, and see where it's at. i willl adjust only the left yoke and see if i can hold the different measurements after twisting. re-check cam timing and go from there. i did misunderstand that you achieved this without a static yoke setup. that is why i never adjusted it before, and i do have questions on the stock strings, but they are going to have to work now. i am making progress, just need closure now. <--<<rob


----------



## srcarlso

*Cam lean*

A Hoyt bow will shoot fine without fixing the lean...just set an AM35 for a guy with some cam lean which shot just fine (paper was perfect). 

I had a chance to talk with a Hoyt Pro who said that for the most part, the Hoyt Pros don't worry too much about a little cam lean but it doesn't hurt much to tune it out...I do. Just be sure cam lean correction at rest does not translate into cam lean at full draw or you will have just reversed the problem.


----------



## ngurb

*cam lean*

i have doubted the cam lean was the issue, having shot bowtech for years with cam lean and they shot fine. and by fine i mean bare shafta dn fletched shaft perfect bullet holes. i could shoot unfletched arrows at 20 yards. thats why i spent so much time checking arrow spine, rest contact, drop speed, and messing with the different grip options. this is a different cam and yoke system that is nothing like the binary bowtech uses. i am new to this cam and cable combo, but i have literally nothing left to check other than to just dump it and start over. i'm sure the riser is fine because i have only pressed it with the bowmaster portable, which doesn't touch the riser. like i said all ready, even if i twist out the cam lean in the top cam, which is very slight, the bottom cam is not tuneable. it just is what it is. frustrated to say the least. i will serve the yoke tonight, and see if the tear comes out. i realy have no choice now.


----------



## ngurb

*tear*

well, verdict is in.

i served the yoke about 1/2 through both strands of the yoke for a for sure no slip serving. i purposfully offset the sight side so it would be an 1/8" shorter than the right side yoke. so the left side was 8", right side was 8 1/8". this was a little too much. i repressed and i took one twist out of the left side and put one twist into the right side yoke. they now both measure 8 1/16". the cam now is in exact line with the string at full draw, and i had a first shot bullet hole through paper. this had nothing to do with the grip, drop away, even centershot, spine. the difference between a bow that shot clean and very much not was making this cable into a static. i will shoot 50 arrows today and post again tommorrow if it has held. what a pain in the butt tune. <---<<rob


----------



## srcarlso

*Ok*



ngurb said:


> well, verdict is in.
> 
> i served the yoke about 1/2 through both strands of the yoke for a for sure no slip serving. i purposfully offset the sight side so it would be an 1/8" shorter than the right side yoke. so the left side was 8", right side was 8 1/8". this was a little too much. i repressed and i took one twist out of the left side and put one twist into the right side yoke. they now both measure 8 1/16". the cam now is in exact line with the string at full draw, and i had a first shot bullet hole through paper. this had nothing to do with the grip, drop away, even centershot, spine. the difference between a bow that shot clean and very much not was making this cable into a static. i will shoot 50 arrows today and post again tommorrow if it has held. what a pain in the butt tune. <---<<rob


Glad it worked out! Not everyone will have to go through this but I am glad it worked in your case.


----------



## WidowMaker

Wondering if someone can answer my previous posted question. My string is tracking off to the left at full draw. Is there a way to get rid of that?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

WidowMaker said:


> Wondering if someone can answer my previous posted question. My string is tracking off to the left at full draw. Is there a way to get rid of that?


could be cam lean, could be a form issue.


----------



## nomad11

Widowmaker - as evidenced by this series of posts...it isnt' necessarily about what things look like (granted it could indicate a problem up front)..but the performance. While your bow shows bad tracking....what are the results?? What is it doing, or not doing? ngrub gave some pretty specific results from his set up....what are you experiencing??


----------



## kiwibowpro

ACC3-49's at 27" and 60# -- your arrows are too stiff !!


----------



## Reverend

kiwibowpro said:


> ACC3-49's at 27" and 60# -- your arrows are too stiff !!


I actually thought they were a little on the weak side.


----------



## TMan51

Reverend said:


> I actually thought they were a little on the weak side.


Reading through this one over time, I realized there's a lot of Cam lean theory out there. Oddly enough, of the Hoyt's I've owned, a pile, the only time I've needed to adjust cam lean, was with a static yoke. I can't say it ever affected my ability to tune the bow. Maybe just lucky.

I use 3-49's cut to 29" at 60lbs, from my Katera's. I need a 125gr tip to get the spine in line. Less weight up front and I cannot get straight nock entry. Same was true for my 60lb Turbotec.


----------



## Redsage

*Xl*

On the Vectrix XL I had 60LB 29 DL 3-39 cut to 28.5" with 100 gn. up front.
Tuned fine with floating yoke.
All the Hoyt bow I had have tune with ez as long as you had arrow spine right.


----------



## Reverend

*Weaker Spine Proponents???*

I'm curious. Those of you that advocate going with a weaker spine, are you by-passing the recommendations of the On-Target software? When I run my specs through it, the 3-39's are not even listed. And my 3-49's are listed a little on the weak side. Are you suggesting I forget about the recommendations, and go with good ole experience? :shade:
Also this would probably be a good time to define "tuned?" Tuned seems to be a broad subject for many archers. Please ellaborate....


----------



## TN ARCHER

I am curious about something. 
I have read through most of these posts about cam lean on Hoyts. I have a Hoyt on it's way, it will be my first Hoyt.
I have set up two for a friend here lately. I noticed, on both of his,there is cam lean on the bottom cam. I assume that this is from the combination of the split limb design and the cables being pulled over by the cable guard.

Is there concern for this ? Is there steps that need to be taken to remove this bottom cam lean? 
The bows shoot fine. We don't paper tune our bows. We walk back tune them, so I have no idea if they shoot "bullet "holes in paper. They do shoot great groups at 70-80 meters.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Ford32

So I apparently got lucky with my AM32 it has been the easiest bow I have tuned ever. I have had a few Mathews that were nightmarish to tune. I had to settle for mechanicals with the Mathews not a good thing. When I bought my Hoyt I was concerned that I could not work on it myself I was wrong. I am just so so at working on bows but I can out tune my local bowshop guy in his defense he is busy. I can shoot whatever broadhead I want out of the Hoyt. I still like the Mathews but all tuning issues were my fault according to Mathews gurus. The AM32 helped me to gain a little more confidence in my equipment.


----------



## TN ARCHER

TN ARCHER said:


> I am curious about something.
> I have read through most of these posts about cam lean on Hoyts. I have a Hoyt on it's way, it will be my first Hoyt.
> I have set up two for a friend here lately. I noticed, on both of his,there is cam lean on the bottom cam. I assume that this is from the combination of the split limb design and the cables being pulled over by the cable guard.
> 
> Is there concern for this ? Is there steps that need to be taken to remove this bottom cam lean?
> The bows shoot fine. We don't paper tune our bows. We walk back tune them, so I have no idea if they shoot "bullet "holes in paper. They do shoot great groups at 70-80 meters.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



TTT. :teeth:


----------



## TMan51

TN ARCHER said:


> I noticed there is cam lean on the bottom cam. I assume that this is from the combination of the split limb design and the cables being pulled over by the cable guard.


That's the reason. If you take a close look at lot's of bows, most will have even more lean than a Hoyt. It doesn't make any difference that I've ever been able to see.

If you have a limb that's really bad, the lean is scary at full draw. Most of the time it's a non-issue.


----------



## bdinpgh

Hi Everyone - I recently picked up a used 2007 Left Handed Hoyt Vectrix. When it arrived, it had the stock stings. No matter what I did, I had a slight tail left tear. I added new sting and cables with a static yoke. I adjusted the yoke so that the string was coming off the top cam perfectly centered. The bow now shoots perfect bullet holes with field tips and my broad heads. I walk back tuned and everything perfect.

I don't think the importance of a static yoke can be overstated for those of you having problems tuning the bow with a floating yoke.


----------



## Reverend

bdinpgh said:


> I don't think the importance of a static yoke can be overstated for those of you having problems tuning the bow with a floating yoke.


Bingo!:thumbs_up


----------



## jim46ok

*Read this..*

Link:

Read this..

http://www.spot-hogg.com/newsletters/archived/newsletter_5.php

Then read it again....Cam Lean is bad ju-ju.

So easy to tie a floating yoke to static. Then twist. Then smile.


----------



## Roskoes

And if, later, you don't like it, just remove the serving. No harm done. :smile:


----------



## jim46ok

*Some AM do, some don't..*

I see 2-3 AlphaMax bows a month. Some have cam lean, some don't. I believe it is limb mismatch. JMHO. I am reluctant to believe mis-drilled axle holes. It certainly is possible. But the drilling and machining is all done by milling machines, etc, and done in jigs. Very little tolerance allowed, or possible. Variance in limb values, whether 5%, 10% or whatever is cumulative when added together. Especially with split limb bows. (4 limbs vs. 2)

A sweet shooting AM is a joy! A poorly set up AM or any other bow is a pain.

I would insist your Dealer make it right..or let Hoyt know.
Good Luck.


----------



## jim46ok

*Right on, Reverend!!*



Reverend said:


> Bingo!:thumbs_up


What he said..


----------



## jim46ok

*Exactly.*

Originally Posted by bdinpgh View Post
"I don't think the importance of a static yoke can be overstated for those of you having problems tuning the bow with a floating yoke."

What he said..


----------



## Reverend

Just wondering if the adjustments to remove cam lean should be done while bow is at brace or at drawn position?


----------



## vulcan320

Reverend said:


> Just wondering if the adjustments to remove cam lean should be done while bow is at brace or at drawn position?


I wasn't sure about this one either but I set mine at brace although I didn't take the lean 100% out on my Vulcan. I checked later on a draw board and it turns out that the lean at brace was exactly opposite to the lean at draw. Seemed to me to be the logical place to leave it because I think that this way the string should travel in the most neutral path when delivering an arrow. I don't paper tune my bows but prefer alternate methods and the Vulcan is shooting very well with the lean set this way.


----------



## nomad11

Wow... just didn't realize how long running this thread was. And will say that, now that I realize that, I've haven't the time to review it all (its almost rut afterall:tongue. Shooting a cam and a 1/2 with the static yokes have played a significant role for me....since I have about 3 bows with the same system. Here is what I think I know. Each bow I have takes the same cable/string length...(convenient)...but each one is different. Since I CHOSE to shoot the same arrow out of each, my only options are to move the rest position and/or the yoke, and to a degree the poundage. In the end...ALL bows shoot the same arrow at, or almost at, the same poi as FPs. Yet each has a different rest setting (+/- 1/8" or less) and a different yoke setting..and all are within 1 lb or, at most 2lbs. The point being we have 3 bows, 1 arrow, with very slight difference in yoke/rest/poundage settings......yet almost identical performance. Concurrently I would add that yoke, rest, timing and poundage setting are a number of factors that interactively play TOGETHER to make it all work. Screwing oneself into the ground over one of those settings can be counter productive. That is the art of tuning.............vs. a science.


----------



## bdinpgh

As an interesting note to this long running thread, it should be noted that Hoyt has changed over to static yokes on their 2011 bows. Is this an admission by Hoyt that the floating yoke system on its prior bows was not the best way to go???


----------



## Reverend

bdinpgh said:


> As an interesting note to this long running thread, it should be noted that Hoyt has changed over to static yokes on their 2011 bows. *Is this an admission by Hoyt* that the floating yoke system on its prior bows was not the best way to go???



"An admission by Hoyt?" That's funny right there... :icon_1_lol:
:zip:


----------



## TMan51

bdinpgh said:


> Is this an admission by Hoyt that the floating yoke system on its prior bows was not the best way to go???


If you've purchased a few sets, you have likely observed that a static yoke is $10-$20 a set lower in cost. They are faster and easier to make, use a bit less materials, and they will not admit they are "cheaping out".


----------



## bdinpgh

TMan51 said:


> If you've purchased a few sets, you have likely observed that a static yoke is $10-$20 a set lower in cost. They are faster and easier to make, use a bit less materials, and they will not admit they are "cheaping out".


I haven't ever purchased a floating yoke type buss cable (don't like them), but my point wasn't about which way is cheaper to make the buss cable (BTW the string making guys here on AT seem to think it takes way less time to make a floating yoke set-up, thus equaling lower labor cost in making the floating yoke (which equals less cost to them) since the sting material is relatively inexpensive compared to their labor).

My question is whether Hoyt's adoption of the static yoke set-up on some of their 2011 bows indicates that they think that a static yoke is a better design as it allows one to more readily tune out any top cam lean? - and yes, I realize that one can serve in a floating yoke and make it a static yoke.

I'm not dogging on Hoyt - I currently own 3 of their bows and really like all of them, just asking the question.

Anyway Rev - sorry to hijack this thread, but I thought it was an interesting point to add to this thread.


----------



## TMan51

bdinpgh said:


> My question is whether Hoyt's adoption of the static yoke set-up on some of their 2011 bows indicates that they think that a static yoke is a better design as it allows one to more readily tune out any top cam lean? - .


My point is that cost is the driver. Having purchased several of both, I don't think there is a bit of difference. The only yoke's I vere needed to tune were static yokes. But the suppliers I have used over the years all charge more for a floating yoke.


----------



## vaguru

Bought my first Hoyt this lst Saturday. After setting to factory tune (except ATA which is 3/16" too long), I had shot after shot tear left. Didn't make much difference what I did. Lizrd tongue, drop away, nothing helped. I did manage to reduce the left tear to just less than 1/4" at 6 ft. Then I served the floater closed and added twists, 1 1/2 ata a time, Third time, bullet hole. Checked bottem cam timing and had to correct that. Bullet hole. I did mess with a floting yoke once with a Conquest Pro. Didn't know enough then to serve it closed,( it was a left tear machine) and add twists to left yoke. I do now, 

Personally, I won't use them again.


----------



## bdinpgh

Reverend said:


> Just wondering if the adjustments to remove cam lean should be done while bow is at brace or at drawn position?



I do mine at full draw. Seems to work fine doing it that way.


----------



## vftcandy

jim46ok said:


> Hi, all. I just put a Hoyt on my KWIK-SHOOTER and found a disturbing bit of cam lean. I have served the floating yoke and twisted to remove lean from top cam, but bottom cam is still pretty bad. Full 1/4" using straightedge.I can't imagine the axles are drilled crooked (measure the same with calipers), and sceptical of cable slide causing it all. Limb ends are visibly crooked, as is cam lean, with the naked eye. Please note the DRAW STOP in picture, not centered on string at all... Not being Hoyt experienced, I'd appreciate any help in getting this customer's bow made right. The Laser Draw tuning on the KWIK-SHOOTER shows very little nock travel, but bow sure shoots inconsistently. Like 2-4" at 20 yards, shot from our shooting machine. HELP!! Thanks! KWIK-SHOOTER.COM


This exactly why I just shipped my Burner back to hoyt...we tried everything nothing corrected it. I was lucky enough to have another 29" 50-60 burner. I removed the lower limbs off that one and put them on mine. presto perfectly straight cam at full draw. My cam was also machined wrong and was eating up my buss cable.


----------



## Mallards Only

This has been an interesting and informative thread. The thread was referred to me by a user on another site in response to a problem I've had with my new Hoyt Carbon Element that I now presume is due to a yoke mistune. After several weeks of exasperation, I have been unable to broadhead tune this bow. I shot through paper originally and was able to get decent holes initially. I then proceeded with the rest of my tuning procedures but have been unable to get my broadheads in sync with my field tips. No matter what I do(move rest to the right, move rest to left, change centershot ht, change draw wt, etc.), broadheads are consistently hitting right of my FT's. I went back to paper and, low and behold, nock tear left. I now cannot tune out that nock tear. I suspect(and am hoping) that this is a yoke tuning issue so I can be done with this. 
My question is, right now, there seems to be a lot of twists on the right yoke compared to the left. My understanding is that I need to increase tension on the left yoke cable to get the tail left out. Is this correct? If so, can I have the shop take a turn or two out of the right cable and would it accomlish the same effect? I don't have a press myself and I want to be sure of what I want him to do when I go down there as I'm not sure of his knowledge with yoke tuning.
Also, is it more important to look for cam lean(or lack thereof) at full draw or at brace? Seems to me that if the arrow leaves the string at brace, it might be more important to have less lean there. Or is it more important for the initial launch and inertia of the arrow at full draw?


----------



## Reverend

Mallards Only said:


> This has been an interesting and informative thread. The thread was referred to me by a user on another site in response to a problem I've had with my new Hoyt Carbon Element that I now presume is due to a yoke mistune. After several weeks of exasperation, I have been unable to broadhead tune this bow. I shot through paper originally and was able to get decent holes initially. I then proceeded with the rest of my tuning procedures but have been unable to get my broadheads in sync with my field tips. No matter what I do(move rest to the right, move rest to left, change centershot ht, change draw wt, etc.), broadheads are consistently hitting right of my FT's. I went back to paper and, low and behold, nock tear left. I now cannot tune out that nock tear. I suspect(and am hoping) that this is a yoke tuning issue so I can be done with this.
> My question is, right now, there seems to be a lot of twists on the right yoke compared to the left. My understanding is that I need to increase tension on the left yoke cable to get the tail left out. Is this correct? If so, can I have the shop take a turn or two out of the right cable and would it accomlish the same effect? I don't have a press myself and I want to be sure of what I want him to do when I go down there as I'm not sure of his knowledge with yoke tuning.
> Also, is it more important to look for cam lean(or lack thereof) at full draw or at brace? Seems to me that if the arrow leaves the string at brace, it might be more important to have less lean there. Or is it more important for the initial launch and inertia of the arrow at full draw?


Mallards, I think you're on the right track. I also think you can do this yourself using a rubber coated screwdriver rather than waiting for a press. In any event, you want to add twists to the left yoke rather than the right. You could also take out a few twists from the right. Keep in mind that as you do this, you'll want to re-synch those cams before you paper tune again. Also keep in mind that on Hoyts newer yokes you will need to add more twists since the yokes are longer. Once you do this you should see an immediate reaction... either the tear will start improving, or else it'll get worse. This will tell you how to proceed. 

I suspect that you will get it tuned... provided that your arrow is properly spined. Don't give up. Each step you take will result in greater knowledge of your set-up.

As far a how to correct cam lean: most will tell you to do it at full draw, which means you'll need a draw board. Of course "yoke-tuning" is tuning out the cam lean; but rather than using a draw board, you're taking small steps and letting the paper tune tell you how to proceed.


----------



## Mallards Only

How do you do this with a screwdriver? By inserting it into the cams at full draw? In looking at the cam, the string is coming off at an angle along the left edge(away from the riser). Intuitively, it seems to me that to fix this, I would need to add more twists to the right yoke. Is this correct--or should I not even worry about that and just "listen" to the paper?


----------



## Reverend

Mallards Only said:


> How do you do this with a screwdriver? By inserting it into the cams at full draw? In looking at the cam, the string is coming off at an angle along the left edge(away from the riser). Intuitively, it seems to me that to fix this, I would need to add more twists to the right yoke. Is this correct--or should I not even worry about that and just "listen" to the paper?


Maybe someone else can weigh in on this question, but the way I've done it is to pull the cables towards the riser while at brace. This will rotate the cams. Find a cutout in the cam near the inside of the limb and insert the screwdriver. Then slowly let the cables return. This should relax all your strings and cables. Keep in mind that not all cams have the appropriate cut-outs. I also strongly recommend using a screwdriver that has been ruber coated... to avoid marring the limbs and cams. Hope this makes sense? 

... and yes, listen to the paper. For a RH bow, twist left yoke to eliminate nock-left tear. 

Also make sure your arrow is correctly spined... or else all this will be futile.


----------



## Ron213

When standing behind the bow as if you were shooting it and the top cam looks like this \ you are saying to twist the left side yoke? Seems backwards? This was very interesting. Thanks guys!!


----------



## Mallards Only

Ron213 said:


> When standing behind the bow as if you were shooting it and the top cam looks like this \ you are saying to twist the left side yoke? Seems backwards? This was very interesting. Thanks guys!!


That's what I was thinking too. But, what do I know. That's the way mine appears to be leaning and when I put more tension on the right side yoke, it seems to improve the lean. I'm not doing it with twists yet though--just by applying pressure to the cable on that side.


----------



## Ron213

Also, could someone post a picture of their floating yoke that they served to make static, I have not seen a floater served static before. My Hoyt has some top cam lean \ but it is shooting fine so I have not played with it to much.


----------



## Reverend

Ok, two things:
I can't emphasize enough the importance of having the correctly spined arrow when tuning. 
Secondly, if you get lost in the tuning process, bring everything back to neutral or factory spec. Then take out all the lean while at full draw. Retime cams. Start yoke tuning. For RH shooters, you can usually take out most of a tail-left tear by adding twists to the left yoke. *Sometimes*, you may find that in order to tune your bow, that you will introduce some lean. If all your lean is out when at full draw, then they will show some lean while at brace. This is normal due to your cable guard / rollers pulling on your cables. I would not be bothered by a little lean so long as it is *not excessive*. Personally, I would define excessive as looking at your cams and describing them as "it just doesn't look right." 
Honestly, some guys shoot bullet holes with no cam lean at fulldraw, and others with no lean at brace. Go figure? It depends on alot of other variables... 
For me the bottom line is how it's shooting through paper without cock-eyed misaligned limbs, and severe cam lean. HTH.


----------



## Ron213

Thank you Sir, I have some at brace, but does not look bad at full draw. My buddy has the same thing on a Alpha burner, some at brace and looks good at full draw. I am just wondering, even though it does not seem to be a problem now, will it get worse and would it be best to try and correct it now before it becomes a bigger issue and gets harder to correct? Should I be looking to get both sides the same length or should one side end up a little shorter to compensate for the lean.


----------



## Mallards Only

Thank you, Reverend. As for the spine issue, I believe, if anything I am at the upper end of the recommended spine for my set-up. According to the shaft selectors I've entered my info into, I am right on the edge of 400 and 500 spined arrows. In shooting the 400's, this puts me into a stiffer arrow. In broadhead tuning, however, the BH's hitting right of FT's indicates a weak spine reaction. This was my first clue to a bigger problem. Am I reasoning this out correctly?

Current DW: 57-58#
Draw length: 26.5"
Shafts: Easton 400 FMJ's
Heads: 125g


----------



## "Supertec"

Wow .. i have never ever had a problem with any hoyt i have ever owend. My supertec, Vantage pro or my Matrix. Of course ive taken every string on a stock hoyt and pitch in the trash the day i bought it as well and had all my strings custom built for my bows by Mike Lifford at Lifford archery. This is why there are professionials like him out there...so they can build the strings and tune these bows to shoot bullets out to 90m. I am in manufacturing .. and like all things in manufacturing there are always variations in everything. Ill bet your bow shoots night and day difference from 32 degrees out to 90 deg out. Why ? limbs heat up...thermodynamics...molecules more faster in a hotter enviorment....

Bows are a science the damn things even work as well as they do...Get a guy you know and trust who was been building and tuning bows since they first come out and that is the guy you want to build you a string and ture that thing. 

I love my BOW MAN...


----------



## Reverend

I would only try to tune my BH's AFTER my initial paper tuning was acceptable. After paper tuning, then I would walk-back tune... and THEN I would BH tune. Once you get to the BH tuning phase, if your BH's are not hitting the same as your FP's, even though you've made micro adjustments to your rest and nocking point, then I would try increasing or decreasing my draw weight 4-5lbs to see how BH's and FP's react to each other. If there is no change, I would look at your BH and fletching selection to rule those out. 

Personally, I've observed that there are no hard fast rules for tuning. One tuning guide will tell you to move rest to the left for a left tear, when in reality an adjustment to the right will correct the problem. 

Easton suggests certain adjustments when tuning but then adds this disclaimer on page 7:
"For archers using release aids, it may, in some cases, be necessary to apply adjustments opposite from those
described. The type of arrow rest and release aid combination used can alter the dynamic flex of the arrow
to produce tear patterns contrary to those indicated (although it is uncommon)."

Interpretation? These are general guidelines but your results may vary.


----------



## nomad11

I will second Reverend's comment on having the right spine. If you don't have that and/or are inducing serious torque..then you need to address that first - yoke tuning is not something you're ready to do.

The trick is to find the right arrow/spine, at the start. One way might be to eliminate lean to the degree possible, set the bow to spec (close as possible) and center shot the rest, as best as you can do. In short, set the bow up as you would changing strings, limbs or general tuning from year to year. After that shoot a variety of spines/lengths and select what works for you. Getting something really close for your set up then lets you influence arrow performance by adjusting poundage, rest setting and yoke. After that you've essentially got the right spine - or close to it. If everything on your bow is where it should be and you're experiencing small tears (1" or less) - you are pretty close.

With the right arrow, and being behind the bow - getting left tears means I will look to tighten the left side of the yoke, or lengthen the right side (or a combo thereof). At times I've gotten to the point where a 1/2 twist on the yoke (either side) changes the tear too much (really fine tuning) and would resort to adding or dropping poundage (<=1lb). Other instances I've elected to move the rest to the right (left tears) or left (right tears). Point being that if you get the right spine...you can play with poundage, rest, yoke to dial it in. In the end I pay little attention to lean at rest at full draw under these circumstances...could care-less....its the results that matter. As for the "lean" getting worse....sure, with new strings that may stretch, you have to take it back out...but once things settle, its very consistent. Performance matters.....not the looks.


----------



## rossing6

I skipped over most of the stuff further down, but you have in my opinion a contact problem, check the vanes for wear, or the rest, or depending on the bow rest combination, some bows have enough downward nock travel they throw the nock down some at release and it can contact the release, and some of them bounce up a little, on trophy takers, you can adjust the internal spring tighter to help this, or add a little camo fuzz tape to where the rest arm hits the riser shelf. some ideas. You should address the yoke as a tuning issue for alignment of the cam groove, if you put an arrow shaft along the cam at letdown and have the arrow parallel the shaft for a base point, then check it at full draw you'll see the arrow will point an inch or so off the string at the bottom cam. Some guys time the bows so the alignment is straight at full draw, some at let down, I do mine in the middle, but have tried all three, and once set, and recentershot the rest, shoot exactly the same, but with a slightly different centershot left and right setting. 100 yards accuracy is identical...floating yokes are very tunable, and if you can't believe that or have your own opinions, serve the fold so it can't move to satisy your own doubts, and twist it up for desired alignment...too many opinions on AT are just opinions not based on fact, or guys actually trying and comparing, just how they 'think' things must work. Try everything for yourself and you will quickly see the truth of what is and isn't...and hats off to 'everyone' who tries to help out, just be careful what you say and when you say it, as we don't want to give faulty info to anyone and cause them anymore grief or to give up the sport....Cheers.


----------



## Mallards Only

Alright, I believe I'm getting closer. At what point though do you determine(if ever) that the remaining tear is still a yoke tuning issue vs a rest issue? I've made so many rest adjustments in an attempt at correcting the tail left tear that I'm less confident that the rest is where it should be. I have been able to nearly correct the tail left tear with yoke adjustments. However, the rest is nearly all the way over to the right(close to the riser) which is where I had to move it to get the best tear before I started yoke tuning. I'm wondering if now I shouldn't overtune the yoke bringing a tail right tear so I can move my rest closer to midline. I know it's normal to have the rest a little off center but it seems a little excessive to me where it is now. Am I overthinking this?


----------



## nomad11

Yoke tuning for me is fine tuning possibly with minor rest adjustments. With a reasonable yoke setting and good centershot your perforfance should give workable results. If I find myself with a rest setting way right or left or a yoke way to one side something else is at play. At that point look at things like contact, rest performance, arrow spine and form. Again I use yoke tuning for fine tuning, rest settings way out of normal are generally not a yoke issue, but indicative of a bigger issue.


----------



## Reverend

I believe the Hoyt recommended centershot is 13/16 in. from riser to center of arrow. Start there first. Then get the best tear through paper by yoke tuning... THEN make minor rest adjustments to clean up the tear. IMO, if you have to move the rest "in" closer than 11/16in., or "out" further than 15/16in., then there's another problem that needs addressing... meaning that it's not the yoke, and it's not the rest.


----------



## Mallards Only

OK, so here's the deal. After making 4 twists on the left yoke, I measured the centershot and I was 12/16" with a slight tail left tear still. I moved it in to 11/16" and, after doing this, I get perfect bullet holes. I also seem to have good broadhead tune as well. Now for the problem--I am now maxxed out on the gross windage on my sight with another 1" until I'm lined up with POI. I suppose I could move the individual pins off the vertical wire but this doesn't seem right, does it??? Should I go back to centershot and put more twists in the yoke and try to correct my tear that way? Or, will that lead to essentially the same result?

I know a lot of you think there is another issue here(i.e. torque, spine, form, etc). I'm not totally opposed to that as a possibility but I really think it's unlikely. I maintain a very loose grip and shooting a relatively stiff arrow according to the spine charts. I'm right on the edge of 400/500 and shooting the 400's. Initially, in broadhead tuning, Easton suggested I was weak in spine with the BH's right of FT's(which correlates to the tail left tear as well) I suppose I could go back to square one and cut a bunch of new arrows at differing lengths and differing spine configurations and try them all until I got a perfect bullet hole. But, shouldn't I be able to tune the bow to the arrows I have as long as I'm reasonably close?


----------



## nomad11

Okay...you are around 11/16" centershot which is very close to reverend's recommendation. One full twist or two on the left side of yoke (or less twist on the right side) and a rest adjustment will very likely get you back to 12/16 and a bullet hole. Additional adjustment of the left side of the yoke will likely get you even closer to mfg. suggested 13/16". As for your sight....I've encountered something similar in the past. In short your sight may not be....and may not have....enough travel for your bow (i.e I took a sight off one bow, put it on another...different bow manufacturers...). Said differently, the cut out of your bow, in this case hoyt, may be considerable so you need a sight that has a lot more left travel. When I went from one bow mfg. to another I encountered this...one cut out was evidently bigger than another so my old sight would not work. I changed sight manufacturers...to one with more travel and had no issues at all. You may be entering a situation where your sight is telling you one thing and your rest another, thru paper. Believe the paper!, screw the sight...they're NOT related. Problem might be that you have to find and spend $$$ to get a sight that fits better. If you believe you have no torque, or bad spine or form issue then....you are close on rest, poundage and spine setting but your sight is not meant for your bow. Been there done that. Get a sight that travels a lot..separate it from you yoke/rest adjustments...ultimately its about your arrow, poundage, rest, form settings -- 'cause you can find a sight that fits it. Just don't try/think everything outta match, thats wishful thinking....there are times when your sight just ain't right for a given bow!!


----------



## Mallards Only

OK. Thanks. That's what I needed to know.


----------



## hoytbowhunting

alright guys i got one to blow your mind i don't have a explanation for this but here is what i got.......VE+ 27.5 spirals 58 lb.........easton fatboy 500 27.5 with 90 grain tips............get 1 in tare though paper LEFT...........cam lean is gone, grip everything is just the same form wise as other bows and don't have this problem with them............but the problem is my center shot hoyt recommends 13/16 to 3/4.......mine is 15/16 way far out to the left......i have walk back tuned and they all hit down the middle from 3 yards to 90 yards so it is center shot....but it is not right i have never seen it this far outside before and have no clue what could be the cause of this......any suggestions would be awesome......GOOD THREAD.........thanks JOSH BYERLY


----------



## nomad11

Sry Hoytbowhunting - I'm not immediately familiar with a VE+ and whether its got a yoke or not. I do feel that if it does then you could be a candidate to get things back between 13/16 to 3/4. Don't know. That said, I have a bow I can tune (and have tuned it multiple times) ... but it won't stay that way It sit upstairs as I type. I suspect the cams, but more so the axle holes (how they are drilled), a bit the axles themselves and then the limb pockets. Said differently, I really don't know what the problem is...just have suspicions. But if that bow tuned at 15/16" and did what its supposed to do every time...I'd flat out hunt with it!!! I used to be someone that had to have the bow at spec (and I mean almost exact draw, brace, etc. - 'cause the mfg said so, yes?), rest at the mfg recommendation and ....bullet hole with the right arrow. In short I wanted everything as it should be...absolutely...and get the performance you describe above (excellent walkback, etc.). Not so today, if I can repeat the tune and get excellent performance - to include broadheads hitting with field points...I could care-less where it sits rest wise. Bottom line - if it does what I need it to everytime...hit the 'X' or take down an animal, what more can one ask?


----------



## hoytbowhunting

well i understand what your saying it is one of them things that bother me haha....but i do have a static yoke on it to fix cam lean but tonight i noticed my bottom cam leaning really hard but the top was perfect i am going to try switching the limbs around and see what happens from there..........if i can get it to group at 70 meters with x10 i dont care how it is set up but i would like to get a good start on it for the first perfect day here in ohio to shoot a full fita with it....if anyone has anything else to add please do so........thanks nomad 11.......JOSH BYERLY


----------



## nomad11

hoytbowhunting - Perfectly understand...you have to do what you gotta do. Now that I know you have a yoke...I will still say that 1-2 twists on the left side of that yoke may very well get you to rest setting that falls within 13/16-3/4"...is that okay?. Would add, if its not too much trouble...could you add 1-2 twists on the left side of the yoke before swapping limbs just to see what happens? If you're dead set on doing the limb change..then you're gonna have to set the yoke anyway...so why not get the "education" before the switch..i.e.learn as you go? My very best...your choice...there is no wrong decision..just an opportunity to learn along the way. Let us know how you do...maybe we/I can learn too.


----------



## Reverend

hoytbowhunting said:


> tonight i noticed *my bottom cam leaning really hard*...


"Really hard" is not good. Have you noticed if there is any space between your cam spacers and limb? Sometimes if there's a gap, you can add another spacer to snug it up and eliminate some lean. Alot of lean is not normal and I would look for a remedy. Like was said, I would add some twists to upper left yoke to try to eliminate your far left rest setting... then try to fix your bottom cam lean. You may find that as you address one area, the other will improve... or not...


----------



## hoytbowhunting

well guys sorry for the long time getting back to you i have been very busy.....but here is what i have found ......first i tried putting 4 twist in the top left yoke it was ugly the string didn't line up at all down the cam and as you draw back looks as if the cable wasn't going to hit the cam track but being crazy as i am i decided to just shoot it though paper and see what happens.......well the scary thing was it shot a dang bullet hole i couldn't believe it....but with the cam leaning that hard to look like it was going to derail i didn't trust it......so then i took my bottom right limb and exchanged it with my top left limb and then set the cam lean on the top back to dead zero.......after doing this my bottom cam was still leaning pretty bad so it didn't really seem to help the bottom any.........but then i shot it though paper again and i got about a 1/8 in tare to the left this time witch is much better than what i had before.......so then i played with draw weight to see if it could be spine of the arrow and it was i dropped down to 55 lb and it shot a bullet hole i was happy with that..........but the crazy thing is........i went out and walk back tuned it with my rest still at 15/16 and it hit dead down the middle every time.............but the positive thing is its coming out of the bow clean shooting a bullet hole and it is grouping really well........but the center shot is still not where i think it should be...haha....but i guess this is just how this bow wants to be shot....i guess nothing is ever the same and i will just have to accept it if it is going good.......but thanks for all the help guys....if you have any more suggestions about the center shot thing please let me know....JOSH BYERLY


----------



## Reverend

By any chance did you notice if there's any play between the cam and inside of the limbs? Sometimes there's a small space cams and inside of limbs that needs to be filled with a spacer of sme kind. While I wouldn't recommend it to be tight, I do prefer it to be snug... On one occasion one of my Hoyts needed an extra spacer / washer.


----------



## Hogwort

Hey ngurb,
I could not have worded any better exactly every thing I have done to my wifes AM32 that you did to your bow. Except one thing and that is this b ow always shot bullet holes before and all at once now I have this left tear problem? By the way I did everything you did after the problem arose including new string and cables. Don't get me wrong I've always shot and liked Hoyts but this one is possesed and I'm ready to throw it out onto the street and run over it with my truck or have an exorcism done on it. I will keep watching this post to see if anything new comes up.
Thanx, Hogwort.


----------



## Boogels

Let me say my bit here.

Hogworth,

If your wifes AM32 shot bullet holes before then it should shoot it again.

You should ask yourself what changed.

The only thing that changed that can influence everything else is string and cable length.

The changes that this lengtening can initiate that will infuence your bullet holes is Cam lean, ATA and cam orientation..

Fidling with cam lean alone will not help your problem.

I found that on a short ATA bow you got to be VERY precise with your string and cable lengths and cam orientation.

To come back to what has changed.

Take off the AM32 bow string and controll cable and pull it tight and measure it.

I usually wind up the yoke if it is a floating as much as I can. A shorter yoke reduces a left lean on the top cam.

Then time the cams with the bus.

You should now be very close to spec on the bow.

I NEVER set the draw length with the cables or string from here because it alter the spec of the bow, the let-off and the way the bow feel and shoot.

A MINIMAL fidling with the cables and string is ok from here.

Shoot 20 shots or so and then shoot the bow through paper and see what tear you got from here.

Now start fidling with the control a 1/2 turn if possable at a time and time with the bus cable shoot 20 shots or so after every adjustment to make the cables settle.

Shoot it through paper and see what you gettting.

Try 2 turns to the one side and if the problem persist 2 turns the other way.

If this still dont eleviate the problem then go to the zero level with your cables..

Start involving the string now by twisting it maybe 1 turn and reapeat the steps with the cables.

I always start by twisting because of possable string stretch while settling it after the changes to length made.

Sooner or later your AM32 will shoot as before.

Mark the cams and buy yourself a good set of 452x string and cables and your bow will shoot a few 1000 shots as it should.

String length is importand to me and I dont alter it as so many people do to get to a certain DL. Rather use it to tune your bow to shoot well.

A too short ATA on such a short ATA bow is never good in my eyes. Rather longer. My Katera and AM35 tune with an aprox 5mm longer ATA


----------



## Hogwort

HEY BOOGELS,
Thanx for the reply. So far I've done most of what you recommended including removing both string and cables and getting them to spec. (452x) along with the rest of the bow specs. axle to axle within 3/16" retimed and synced, even the draw length came out dead on the money. Still no luck with the tune, but I'll try he other things you recommended and see what happens. One other thing I did was switch the top to bottom limbs, this helped the tune very little but for some reason it made the knock point go down about an 1/8" ? Thanx again for the info. And I'll keep trying. Hogwort.


----------



## Reverend

Update?


----------



## chevman

Old thread here but i am going to bring it back up with my own problem. Contender elite, spiral cams, left tare that wont go away. Going to try yoke tuning again. I am holding the bow as if i am going to shoot it. Right handed shooter,riser on right side. Witch yoke side do i twist up? The right side(side with the riser) or the left side? This was never made perfectly clear in this thread. Everyone calls the left and the right differently.


----------



## CatFan

It sounds like they are saying twist the left yoke as seen when shooting. I have a VE+ that I can't get rid of the left tear. Tried all of this stuff too. Why doesn't anyone speak of eliminating the torque caused by the cable guard rod by using a tilt tamer or and arc-tec cable rod? When I walk back tune I have to set my rest outside normal centershot to get everything shooting down the middle at all distances. If I shoot it at 13/16" then I don't have enough lateral travel in my sight to the right to correct for POI. I don't have any top cam lean at full draw or at brace height, but there is some bottom cam lean. Ihave an arctec on the way to see if this improves the left tear. BTW, it tears left with any arrow from proper spine too way stiff.


----------



## ia bhtr

chevman said:


> Old thread here but i am going to bring it back up with my own problem. Contender elite, spiral cams, left tare that wont go away. Going to try yoke tuning again. I am holding the bow as if i am going to shoot it. Right handed shooter,riser on right side. Witch yoke side do i twist up? The right side(side with the riser) or the left side? This was never made perfectly clear in this thread. Everyone calls the left and the right differently.


easiest way to remember is , you are pulling the tip of the arrow around , if you have a nock left tear , the tip is pointing right , so you need to tighten the left side of the yoke to pull the tip back to center , that is when you are behind the bow ...... if that makes any sense to you , its what works for the thought process in my old brain anyways


----------



## ArcherXXX300

Tagged for future reference. Also I am understanding the yolks as being Static is 1 cable that is served and becomes 2 and y's out at the top cam? Floating is a 2 piece system, a cable length that has another section of string inserted through a loop in the top of the string and that becomes the Y at the top cam? Like an Alpha Elite would be a static yolk and a Trykon maybe would be a floating yolk? I can't remember what bow this kid had the other day, we were tuning a drop away on it with a left tear for a LH archer. His strings were pretty shot.


----------



## Ctodhunter

Following


----------



## adamtrombley

left tears also mean that the arrow is too weak. just letting you know


----------

