# Dress Code



## abe archer

Is there a dress code for pro's at tournaments???


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## SuperX

there was a dress code passed at the 2010 NFAA director's meeting. So for this year yes there will be one starting 6/1/2010


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## frank_jones

*code*

thats good for a pro dress code. how will it be enforced , who will enforce it, and what will be the penalty for not being within the code?


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## SuperX

frank_jones said:


> thats good for a pro dress code. how will it be enforced , who will enforce it, and what will be the penalty for not being within the code?


I don't have the rule in front of me but my understanding is that it will be enforced by the pros and the pro executive committee will hand down judgement. Punishment will be removal from the shoot


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## pragmatic_lee

SuperX said:


> there was a dress code passed at the 2010 NFAA director's meeting. So for this year yes there will be one starting 6/1/2010





SuperX said:


> I don't have the rule in front of me but my understanding is that it will be enforced by the pros and the pro executive committee will hand down judgement. Punishment will be removal from the shoot


Do I understand what you're saying? There's going to be a dress code *for the pros* that will be enforced *by the pros*?

Or are you saying there's going to be a dress code *for everyone* enforced *by the pros*?


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## CTShooter

Can someone post a link or the text of the new rule?


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## rock monkey

the dress code applies to the *PROS* *ONLY*. the pros are not the police force of the NFAA, i dont know why some want to think that. history of the pro class self enforcement isnt that all that stellar.

the pros are a small, self-governing group within the NFAA. they do not make rules, enforce rules or change rules for the whole of the NFAA. they are also members of the NFAA. they do have an obligation to police their own ranks and ensure that the general rules of the NFAA are followed.

the PROS have a voice like every member of the NFAA has, but they do not have any more pull within the org than you or i. they may have a single representative to the board, but i cannot say for sure. i'm not a pro and what the pros do has no bearing on the rank and file amateurs, nor do i care. if you feel the PROS have more pull or the BoD does what they want, that is because WE as members have allowed it.

what i dont understand is why everyone cares about what the pros do or dont do when they cant even manage their own affairs. WE are the NFAA, but yet we, yes i said WE, allow the silliness to continue and do nothing but complain.

the pro class is an exclusive class, as it should. they are the best of the best. why do any of you have any concern about what they do when you have no financial or membership interest in that class. that's the same as a barebow shooter complaining about the freestyle class.

dont go into the target change of 77, one of the people involved has spoken up, and admitted it was a mistake to make it an across the board change.

the NYFAB's list of agenda items had pro class items along with the general items of the NFAA. while the NFAA's public list only listed what was for the whole of the NFAA.

when PRO class agenda items, like the dress code, are voted on, ONLY the pros vote. thats why there is a pro chairperson.


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## pragmatic_lee

rock monkey said:


> the dress code applies to the *PROS* *ONLY*. the pros are not the police force of the NFAA, i dont know why some want to think that. history of the pro class self enforcement isnt that all that stellar.


DUDE - don't get your panties in a wad - I simply asked for some clarification.


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## rock monkey

people are taking a misunderstanding and making a run with it. when that starts happening, all of the untrue stories and bs rules start making their rounds as gospel.




pragmatic_lee said:


> DUDE - don't get your panties in a wad - I simply asked for some clarification.


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## pragmatic_lee

rock monkey said:


> people are taking a misunderstanding and making a run with it. when that starts happening, all of the untrue stories and bs rules start making their rounds as gospel.


Excuse me for asking, but what would that "misunderstanding" be?


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## sl954

pragmatic_lee said:


> Excuse me for asking, but what would that "misunderstanding" be?



I understood you


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## rock monkey

the question was asked about a dress code for the pros, and was answered by a pro.

if the answer given by the pro was misunderstood to mean it applied to EVERYONE, then it is wrong.


if there is to be a dress code issue brought up concerning the whole of the NFAA, then it would have to be done as an agenda item submission.

as it is, it was a PRO dress code issue. i found nothing in the NFAA's list of agenda items for 2010


this is from the NYFAB's list:

_PRO-6 New Item, Revision, By-Laws, Page 36, Article III, Section D, Paragraph 3, Item 3.2
RATIONALE: To insure a more Professional look with hopes of developing better branding of the NFAA Professional Division.
PROPOSED CHANGE:
Add to Item 3.2
Not acceptable.
Jeans – any color except for outdoor field and outdoor 3-D events. Swimming suits, cut-offs and obscene or vulgar slogans or pictures on clothing.
Violations to the dress code will be enforced by the Pro Executive Committee (PEC) and may result in a reprimand, probation or suspension. Violations should be brought to the Pro Chair by the Tournament Chair._


when comparing the list between the 2 sources, NYFAB and the NFAA, there are many more listed on the NYFAB's site. 4 PRO items related to changing of scoring. there were also several items about the 3D stuff while the NFAA's list only had one.



pragmatic_lee said:


> Excuse me for asking, but what would that "misunderstanding" be?


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## SuperX

pragmatic_lee said:


> Do I understand what you're saying? There's going to be a dress code *for the pros* that will be enforced *by the pros*?
> 
> Or are you saying there's going to be a dress code *for everyone* enforced *by the pros*?


read the original question and you will see I answered about the pros. There is no dress code for the rest of us.


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## SuperX

rock monkey said:


> the question was asked about a dress code for the pros, and was answered by a pro.
> 
> if the answer given by the pro was misunderstood to mean it applied to EVERYONE, then it is wrong.
> 
> 
> if there is to be a dress code issue brought up concerning the whole of the NFAA, then it would have to be done as an agenda item submission.
> 
> as it is, it was a PRO dress code issue. i found nothing in the NFAA's list of agenda items for 2010
> 
> 
> this is from the NYFAB's list:
> 
> 
> _PRO-6 New Item, Revision, By-Laws, Page 36, Article III, Section D, Paragraph 3, Item 3.2
> RATIONALE: To insure a more Professional look with hopes of developing better branding of the NFAA Professional Division.
> PROPOSED CHANGE:
> Add to Item 3.2
> Not acceptable.
> Jeans – any color except for outdoor field and outdoor 3-D events. Swimming suits, cut-offs and obscene or vulgar slogans or pictures on clothing.
> Violations to the dress code will be enforced by the Pro Executive Committee (PEC) and may result in a reprimand, probation or suspension. Violations should be brought to the Pro Chair by the Tournament Chair._
> 
> 
> when comparing the list between the 2 sources, NYFAB and the NFAA, there are many more listed on the NYFAB's site. 4 PRO items related to changing of scoring. there were also several items about the 3D stuff while the NFAA's list only had one.



The list in NYFAB's site must be because Dave posted the 15 signature items we took during the meeting and the ones that came in at the last minute and didn't get posted to the web in the fall.


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## SuperX

rock monkey said:


> the question was asked about a dress code for the pros, and was answered by a pro.
> 
> if the answer given by the pro was misunderstood to mean it applied to EVERYONE, then it is wrong.
> 
> 
> if there is to be a dress code issue brought up concerning the whole of the NFAA, then it would have to be done as an agenda item submission.
> 
> as it is, it was a PRO dress code issue. i found nothing in the NFAA's list of agenda items for 2010
> 
> 
> this is from the NYFAB's list:
> 
> _PRO-6 New Item, Revision, By-Laws, Page 36, Article III, Section D, Paragraph 3, Item 3.2
> RATIONALE: To insure a more Professional look with hopes of developing better branding of the NFAA Professional Division.
> PROPOSED CHANGE:
> Add to Item 3.2
> Not acceptable.
> Jeans – any color except for outdoor field and outdoor 3-D events. Swimming suits, cut-offs and obscene or vulgar slogans or pictures on clothing.
> Violations to the dress code will be enforced by the Pro Executive Committee (PEC) and may result in a reprimand, probation or suspension. Violations should be brought to the Pro Chair by the Tournament Chair._
> 
> 
> when comparing the list between the 2 sources, NYFAB and the NFAA, there are many more listed on the NYFAB's site. 4 PRO items related to changing of scoring. there were also several items about the 3D stuff while the NFAA's list only had one.


I'm not shooting pro this year but otherwise you seem to have the rest of it covered pretty well.


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## CHPro

> when PRO class agenda items, like the dress code, are voted on, ONLY the pros vote. thats why there is a pro chairperson.


Just a quick clarification Rock, the above is not true. Any agenda item is voted on by the Board of Directors, even agenda items relating solely to the Pro Division. Usually the agenda item is something the Pro Division members have already voted on internally and/or discussed. The Pro Chair can recommend to the BoD which direction they wish the matter to be voted, but still gets voted in, or not, by the BoD.

Everything else sounded spot on for the most part. Just wanted to clarify the above voting on agenda items relating to the Pro Division. Part of the reason it is so difficult to make changes that seem simple to implement sometimes on stuff like dress codes, penalties for infractions, etc......all has to be brought up in the manner of an agenda item, clear the appropriate committees and then be brought up to the BoD to be voted on.

Fairly sure I've got most of the procedures noted above correct...at least that was my last understanding, lol .

>>------->


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## SuperX

CHPro said:


> Just a quick clarification Rock, the above is not true. Any agenda item is voted on by the Board of Directors, even agenda items relating solely to the Pro Division. Usually the agenda item is something the Pro Division members have already voted on internally and/or discussed. The Pro Chair can recommend to the BoD which direction they wish the matter to be voted, but still gets voted in, or not, by the BoD.
> 
> Everything else sounded spot on for the most part. Just wanted to clarify the above voting on agenda items relating to the Pro Division. Part of the reason it is so difficult to make changes that seem simple to implement sometimes on stuff like dress codes, penalties for infractions, etc......all has to be brought up in the manner of an agenda item, clear the appropriate committees and then be brought up to the BoD to be voted on.
> 
> Fairly sure I've got most of the procedures noted above correct...at least that was my last understanding, lol .
> 
> >>------->


Thanks CHPro, I missed that sentence. I would add that the ONLY agenda items where the pro chairman can vote are the agenda items that are directly affecting the pros and even then it is only one vote.


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## The Swami

So we have to wear slacks for indoor archery and jeans are ok for outdoors? Just want to be clear.


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## rock monkey

thank you for the correction. i dont spend a whole lot of time concerning myself with the PRO class since i'm not one. if i was, i'd have been asked to leave from my scores of late.

i shoot FS, and thats what i mainly concern the rules of. not BH, BB or anything else, just FS. you PROs have enuff on your plate.



CHPro said:


> Just a quick clarification Rock, the above is not true. Any agenda item is voted on by the Board of Directors, even agenda items relating solely to the Pro Division. Usually the agenda item is something the Pro Division members have already voted on internally and/or discussed. The Pro Chair can recommend to the BoD which direction they wish the matter to be voted, but still gets voted in, or not, by the BoD.
> 
> Everything else sounded spot on for the most part. Just wanted to clarify the above voting on agenda items relating to the Pro Division. Part of the reason it is so difficult to make changes that seem simple to implement sometimes on stuff like dress codes, penalties for infractions, etc......all has to be brought up in the manner of an agenda item, clear the appropriate committees and then be brought up to the BoD to be voted on.
> 
> Fairly sure I've got most of the procedures noted above correct...at least that was my last understanding, lol .
> 
> >>------->


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## David Chouinard

*Paa*

The PAA had a dress code, not it wasn't white, not sure if when they accepted release aide it was still in effect, although myself not a pro anymore, having the "look" of being professional (indoors):wink: would be nice. David


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## SuperX

I might go back to shooting pro if they had cool uniforms :darkbeer::wink:


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## The Swami

SuperX said:


> I might go back to shooting pro if they had cool uniforms :darkbeer::wink:


Like white pants and argyle sweater vests?


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## David Chouinard

*wait a minute*

Does the NFAA have a colored jacket like the golfers get/ Maybe they should have one for both man/female and the award they have now for overall champion at outdoor nationals?


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## mag41vance

*The new Uniform*


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## SuperX

mag41vance said:


>


That is awesome!


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## SuperX

The Swami said:


> Like white pants and argyle sweater vests?


nay! Maybe more like a Nascar thing


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## SuperX

I don't recall the whole dress code but as I do recall, it is slacks indoors and jeans are OK outside. My feeling at the time was it was pretty vague


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## JAY JAMES

thatswhen PRO class agenda items, like the dress code, are voted on, ONLY the pro why there is a pro chairperson.[/QUOTE]

This is wrong. This was not voted on by the Pros. It is voted on by the directors. Most of us did not want a dress code. The manufactors did not care. The Pro Chairwomen did so now we have one weather we wanted it or not. We were told that designer jeans were trashy, and not good enough.


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## SuperX

JAY JAMES said:


> thatswhen PRO class agenda items, like the dress code, are voted on, ONLY the pro why there is a pro chairperson.


This is wrong. This was not voted on by the Pros. It is voted on by the directors. Most of us did not want a dress code. The manufactors did not care. The Pro Chairwomen did so now we have one weather we wanted it or not. We were told that designer jeans were trashy, and not good enough.[/QUOTE]

the only way the constitution and by-laws can be changed is by a vote of the directors. The pro division through the pro chairman asked to add a dress code to the by-laws governing the behavior of the professional division. If your chairman didn't represent your needs or wishes in this area, that is a matter for you to discuss with her (and probably not on the internet).

The directors last year made a lot of mention of how the pros should be held to a stricter dress code, so in some respects the pro chairman came back with a proposal in response to the director's comments. I know this question has been lingering for many years without a resolution and that there are strong feelings on both sides. Now there is a dress code which I highly doubt any pro will find too difficult to adhere to. Who knows if it is appeasing the directors, maybe it will smooth the road for the other changes the pro division is asking for such as counting the X as 6 in field and hunter. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little and I think it is in that spirit that the ammendment was brought forward.


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## Nobody's B

WFT!!!!!!!! Whatever Dude........... So what your telling me is that this is my last time to wear my $250 pair of jeans @ Louisville. Hey what's worse wearing a pair of jeans @ a shoot or being a jack-off on AT. Can you kick me out of the Pro's for talking s#$%. Let me know because I haven't pay my dues yet...LOL

And for the record this is a Pro forum So I only want to see Pro's *****ing @ other Pro's about the dress code. 

IF YOU ARE NOT A PRO PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS TO YOURSELF, THANK YOU. or post it on another forum.

thanx for the time Bra!!


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## field14

Nobody's B said:


> WFT!!!!!!!! Whatever Dude........... So what your telling me is that this is my last time to wear my $250 pair of jeans @ Louisville. Hey what's worse wearing a pair of jeans @ a shoot or being a jack-off on AT. Can you kick me out of the Pro's for talking s#$%. Let me know because I haven't pay my dues yet...LOL
> 
> And for the record this is a Pro forum So I only want to see Pro's *****ing @ other Pro's about the dress code.
> 
> IF YOU ARE NOT A PRO PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS TO YOURSELF, THANK YOU. or post it on another forum.
> 
> thanx for the time Bra!!


Derrick,
IMHO, you are out of line....and pro? Conduct is also part of the "Professional code of ethics", as well as attitude and demeanor. 
I don't think the way you typed the above quoted post is in any way PROFESSIONAL at all.

REAL pros hold themselves to a higher standard and don't really 'need' to be forced into it....but SOME...well...do it their way; but don't last long.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SuperX

SuperX said:


> the only way the constitution and by-laws can be changed is by a vote of the directors. The pro division through the pro chairman asked to add a dress code to the by-laws governing the behavior of the professional division. If your chairman didn't represent your needs or wishes in this area, that is a matter for you to discuss with her (and probably not on the internet).
> 
> The directors last year made a lot of mention of how the pros should be held to a stricter dress code, so in some respects the pro chairman came back with a proposal in response to the director's comments. I know this question has been lingering for many years without a resolution and that there are strong feelings on both sides. Now there is a dress code which I highly doubt any pro will find too difficult to adhere to. Who knows if it is appeasing the directors, maybe it will smooth the road for the other changes the pro division is asking for such as counting the X as 6 in field and hunter. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little and I think it is in that spirit that the ammendment was brought forward.


my original reply had part of the quoted post text mixed into my comments so I am quoting what I wrote so that nobody mistakes my words and Jay James' words.


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## Nobody's B

field14 said:


> Derrick,
> IMHO, you are out of line....and pro? Conduct is also part of the "Professional code of ethics", as well as attitude and demeanor.
> I don't think the way you typed the above quoted post is in any way PROFESSIONAL at all.
> 
> REAL pros hold themselves to a higher standard and don't really 'need' to be forced into it....but SOME...well...do it their way; but don't last long.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


thanks Tom you made my point


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## JAY JAMES

Thanks SuperX for correcting yourself. 

Now Back to BUISNESS!!!!!!

With the NFAA losing membership every year, year after year. Don't Yall think they should be worried about my pants. We can't get 20 people to State indoor in Louisiana, so me wearing Dress Pant is going to change that( ya right). That is problem worry about what needs to be worry about and leave me Trailer Jeans out of it.

Thanks Jay


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## The Swami

I am happy with the dress code the way it was changed. I don't mind wearing slacks for indoors.

I don't see what the big deal is. You can buy slacks much cheaper on average than most jeans.

I think it is a good compromise. It could have been a lot more rigid and been like the FITA dress code for example. That, I would have more of a problem with.


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## SD-Archer

Just out of curiosity.....will female shooters be wearing a dress or skirt? Just saying. I mean, if we are moving towards business casual and all.....


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## The Swami

SD-Archer said:


> Just out of curiosity.....will female shooters be wearing a dress or skirt? Just saying. I mean, if we are moving towards business casual and all.....


The rule doesn't mention gender. That means women pros can wear slacks too. 

If you are a pro, isn't it business after all? 

I don't understand why there is so much resentment towards some kind of dress code. Do you want to promote professional archery in the sport? Do you want pro archery to be bigger and better and hopefull closer to what other pro sports are doing?

Pros in other sports have more conduct rules etc. than we do in archery.


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## ebonarcher

bare bow must wear a thong ?


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## dragonheart

Barebow in a thong, wow! This dress code thing is getting a little weird! LOL!


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## SuperX

thank god the barebow pro division does not exist! :mg:


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## SD-Archer

The Swami said:


> The rule doesn't mention gender. That means women pros can wear slacks too.
> 
> If you are a pro, isn't it business after all?
> 
> I don't understand why there is so much resentment towards some kind of dress code. Do you want to promote professional archery in the sport? Do you want pro archery to be bigger and better and hopefull closer to what other pro sports are doing?
> 
> Pros in other sports have more conduct rules etc. than we do in archery.


In all honesty, I have no resentment towards a dressing nicely for an event (in good taste). I aggree in part to what was said: "Jeans – any color except for outdoor field and outdoor 3-D events. Swimming suits, cut-offs and obscene or vulgar slogans or pictures on clothing." I do not agree with the jeans part, but the rest of it yes. When I shoot, I wear a nice Polo and nice jeans because I represent both the sport and sponsors. I dress nicely. Which is what 90% of the rest of the shooters (and sponsors) are wearing. And very few shooters do this as a business. They do it because they enjoy it. Yes, most other sports have dress codes...which mostly revolve around safety. Fire ******ents, skin protection, head and eye protection, padding etc. Their dress code serves a purpose not a fashion show. I've been in the military for 17 years. I can preach all day about uniformity, dress codes and protective gear. I would never wear slacks to the field because it serves no purpose. We are members of the National FIELD Archery Association. Leave the dress codes to FITA please. 
Not saying any of this to be arrogant, mean or disrespectful. Just my opinion. Our right as a paying members of our organization.

Swami....sent ya a PM


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## Nobody's B

SD hit it on the head....


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## 2fingers

Does it say slacks for indoors or can you wear shorts(not jeans shorts)? There could be a nice 70 deg day at louisville. Is there a link to the new rule
?


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## SuperX

2fingers said:


> Does it say slacks for indoors or can you wear shorts(not jeans shorts)? There could be a nice 70 deg day at louisville. Is there a link to the new rule
> ?


I don't see why not - the rule reads cut offs not shorts:
PRO-6 New Item, Revision, By-Laws, Page 36, Article III, Section D, Paragraph 3, Item 3.2
RATIONALE: To insure a more Professional look with hopes of developing better branding of the NFAA Professional Division.
PROPOSED CHANGE:
Add to Item 3.2
Not acceptable.
Jeans – any color except for outdoor field and outdoor 3-D events. Swimming suits, _cut-offs _and obscene or vulgar slogans or pictures on clothing.
Violations to the dress code will be enforced by the Pro Executive Committee (PEC) and may result in a reprimand, probation or suspension. Violations should be brought to the Pro Chair by the Tournament Chair.


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## NEVADAPRO

I'm sure Vegas will do their own thing!!

Wear watcha brung!!!


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## Diane Watson

The rule change does not go into effect till June 1, 2010.


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## SuperX

*Dress Code Enforcement*

Diane,

I have a few questions that I have been getting asked and can't answer about this rule. It would be very helpful if you could walk us through these and provide answers.

Does this apply at state, sectional and National levels or is it only applicable to a specific level of shoot?

Can anyone report a pro to the tournament chair for a violation or is it limited to other pros or does a violation of the dress code have to be observed by the tournament chair or does it require confirmation by a member of the pro executive committee to be considered?

Who is on the pro executive committee?

What is the process the pro executive committee follows to determine if the code was violated? (Is it a majority vote, unanimous, does there have to be a certain number of PEC members present to vote)

Will a shooter on probation lose anything by being on probation? (For example, if they win money at the shoot they voilate the code at, will they loose their money?)

When a pro is suspended, what exactly are they suspended from doing and what are the limits of their suspension in regards to shooting outside of the NFAA?

When a pro is on probation what does that mean? How long will it last?

What would determine a warning versus probation versus suspension?

Thanks Diane

If you would rather answer for the pros only on the ALC pro forum, I will cross post this there as well


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## proXarchery

another way to beat up archery. The dress code at IBO and ASA has not been a problem why punish people that want to shoot their bows. just my 2


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## Diane Watson

I will try to answer your questions as direct as I can but as you know, the dress code issue is something that the Directors wanted, so in a move to show the Directors that the Pro's are united and are willing to be team players, it was agreed by those who attended the meeting at Field Nationals that I would submit an agenda item for a dress code. I tried to leave the dress code as open ended as possible. It is not anyone's intention to discipline or "beat up archery". If any of you remember back when ASA was getting off of the ground, they were sticklers about the collared shirt. If you were not wearing a collard shirt then you were asked to change or you didn't shoot. It was that simple. They even went to the extent if you made it into the final shoot off and your sponsors were not official sponsors of the tournament, then you either turned your shirt inside out or you didn't shoot. It is much the same with the new NFAA dress code except that it is only saying not to wear Jeans or Vulgar Slogans on shirts. The agenda item is also stating that jeans will not be acceptable for Indoor Nationals in 2011 and beyond - Indoor Nationals Only. I am sincerely hoping that all members of the Pro Division can adhere to the no jean policy for Indoor Nationals 2011. The agenda item does not state whether it would adhere to State or Sectional Level tournaments. But again, my hope is that we can be grown-ups about this and at least adhere to it on a Sectional level. It would be up to the individual states as to whether they want to implement a dress code. 

If we have a dress code violation then it needs to be brought to the Tournament Director by either someone in the Pro Division or by a Council men or Director and then the Tournament Director will bring it to the Pro Chair. The Pro Chair will then take it to the Executive Committee, which I am assuming at this point, the Committee or the Pro Chair will just ask the person in violation to please change.

The Pro Executive Committee as it stands right now is one person from each of the following Pro Divisions. Women's Pro - Christie Collin, Men's Pro - Jeff Button, Limited Pro - Emory Budzinski and Senior Pro - Dee Wilde.

The rest of your questions I will need to defer till after the meeting at Nationals. I surely hope that none of this will ever rate to a suspension. We may have to ask a few to change and hopefully they will in the best interest of putting a positive image forward.


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## SuperX

Diane Watson said:


> I will try to answer your questions as direct as I can but as you know, the dress code issue is something that the Directors wanted, so in a move to show the Directors that the Pro's are united and are willing to be team players, it was agreed by those who attended the meeting at Field Nationals that I would submit an agenda item for a dress code. I tried to leave the dress code as open ended as possible. It is not anyone's intention to discipline or "beat up archery". If any of you remember back when ASA was getting off of the ground, they were sticklers about the collared shirt. If you were not wearing a collard shirt then you were asked to change or you didn't shoot. It was that simple. They even went to the extent if you made it into the final shoot off and your sponsors were not official sponsors of the tournament, then you either turned your shirt inside out or you didn't shoot. It is much the same with the new NFAA dress code except that it is only saying not to wear Jeans or Vulgar Slogans on shirts. The agenda item is also stating that jeans will not be acceptable for Indoor Nationals in 2011 and beyond - Indoor Nationals Only. I am sincerely hoping that all members of the Pro Division can adhere to the no jean policy for Indoor Nationals 2011. The agenda item does not state whether it would adhere to State or Sectional Level tournaments. But again, my hope is that we can be grown-ups about this and at least adhere to it on a Sectional level. It would be up to the individual states as to whether they want to implement a dress code.
> 
> If we have a dress code violation then it needs to be brought to the Tournament Director by either someone in the Pro Division or by a Council men or Director and then the Tournament Director will bring it to the Pro Chair. The Pro Chair will then take it to the Executive Committee, which I am assuming at this point, the Committee or the Pro Chair will just ask the person in violation to please change.
> 
> The Pro Executive Committee as it stands right now is one person from each of the following Pro Divisions. Women's Pro - Christie Collin, Men's Pro - Jeff Button, Limited Pro - Emory Budzinski and Senior Pro - Dee Wilde.
> 
> The rest of your questions I will need to defer till after the meeting at Nationals. I surely hope that none of this will ever rate to a suspension. We may have to ask a few to change and hopefully they will in the best interest of putting a positive image forward.


Diane that clears up a lot. I know this was a tough decision to bring this up at the meeting. Thanks


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## AT_X_HUNTER

I don't know everyone's reason for joining the Pro division. Or, for that matter what all the members see it as now. I do beleive it is a good thing for the governing body to have a vision and goals for the group. The dress code has been a debate for some time and now it is being put to the test. We will see if a more "professional" appearance will generate better branding or whatever is being attempted. The bottom line is this, now we can begin to move on from this subject and to other issues.

Personally speaking as a newer pro member. I joined the pro division so that I would push myself to be a better shooter. By putting myself in with the best and most competitive I had hoped to learn and improve my mental and physical skills. I saw the pro division as just another division, not unlike the way the NFAA sees it. It's far from a business for me. I just like shooting a bow.

If the pro division wants to be more than just a "division" it's going to have to do something to give real value to the title of pro. At the moment it simply means I paid a few extra bucks and got a badge. There was no talent requirements, sponsorship, or probationary period. There is no pro circuit or events. The only requirement is money. If you can pay, you play. Personally, I feel that cheapens the quality of the word "pro".

So now we have a dress code. We can now look the part. Perhaps we can start working on making that part really mean something.


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## ArbySandwich

Seems like to me the problem is not what you wear the problem is Following the Rules or not wanting too. I've ONLY been involved here on Archery Talk now for two days and have been shooting a bow since I was 13 now I know why I never got into clubs and organizations all these years. They make the rules then some follow them and some don't and the rest fuss about them. You follow life's rules or you go to jail. Why not follow archery rules or quit. The first day I was on here I saw a discussion about alcohol and shooting a bow and there was so much arguing about they closed the discussion. What is wrong with RULES that's why we make them....if I don't follow them I pay the consequences. Come on people why can't we all follow the rules and get along and have fun. Personally I don't care if you wear slacks or a thong but if the rule says slacks why do people have such a hard time doing that.


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## AT_X_HUNTER

ArbySandwich said:


> Seems like to me the problem is not what you wear the problem is Following the Rules or not wanting too. I've ONLY been involved here on Archery Talk now for two days and have been shooting a bow since I was 13 now I know why I never got into clubs and organizations all these years. They make the rules then some follow them and some don't and the rest fuss about them. You follow life's rules or you go to jail. Why not follow archery rules or quit. The first day I was on here I saw a discussion about alcohol and shooting a bow and there was so much arguing about they closed the discussion. What is wrong with RULES that's why we make them....if I don't follow them I pay the consequences. Come on people why can't we all follow the rules and get along and have fun. Personally I don't care if you wear slacks or a thong but if the rule says slacks why do people have such a hard time doing that.


because this rule was not voted on by the whole of the pro members. It is a new rule that very few had any say on. It's not an issue of following rules or not. It's the introduction of this rule in the pro division that is the subject of this thread.


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## SD-Archer

ArbySandwich said:


> Seems like to me the problem is not what you wear the problem is Following the Rules or not wanting too. I've ONLY been involved here on Archery Talk now for two days and have been shooting a bow since I was 13 now I know why I never got into clubs and organizations all these years. They make the rules then some follow them and some don't and the rest fuss about them. You follow life's rules or you go to jail. Why not follow archery rules or quit. The first day I was on here I saw a discussion about alcohol and shooting a bow and there was so much arguing about they closed the discussion. What is wrong with RULES that's why we make them....if I don't follow them I pay the consequences. Come on people why can't we all follow the rules and get along and have fun. Personally I don't care if you wear slacks or a thong but if the rule says slacks why do people have such a hard time doing that.


Because these rules came about after we paid our dues to join the organization. And it's one of the reasons why many people joined the organization to begin with. It was less stressful and a more laid back group of people who just wanted to have fun shooting. Otherwise, we would have just joined one of many other organizations that had previously established strick policies.


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## Diane Watson

Everyone please understand a few things... 

It was decided by those Pro's that came to the meeting at Field Nationals to bring a dress code to the division. One main reason is that we wanted to show the directors that we are willing to do what the NFAA is asking of us and secondly we were asking for some scoring changes and we thought that by giving the Directors what they asked for , we inturn would received what we asked for. It didn't quite turn out that way, but now we have the dress code. 

The dress code does not go into affect until June 1, 2011 and then it only states that "jeans" cannot be worn for Indoor Nationals. "Jeans" may be worn outside at Field Nationals and or the Dakota Classic. Docker's, Cargo pants, Slacks are all acceptable to where at Indoor Nationals 2011 for those competing in the Pro Division.


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## I BOW 2

I might add that if you wish to "effect change" in the Pro Division policies then show up to the Pro meeting at this years Indoor Nationals with your concerns!!! Ken


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## XCR1200

Diane Watson said:


> Everyone please understand a few things...
> 
> It was decided by those Pro's that came to the meeting at Field Nationals to bring a dress code to the division. One main reason is that we wanted to show the directors that we are willing to do what the NFAA is asking of us and secondly we were asking for some scoring changes and we thought that by giving the Directors what they asked for , we inturn would received what we asked for. It didn't quite turn out that way, but now we have the dress code.
> 
> The dress code does not go into affect until June 1, 2011 and then it only states that "jeans" cannot be worn for Indoor Nationals. "Jeans" may be worn outside at Field Nationals and or the Dakota Classic. Docker's, Cargo pants, Slacks are all acceptable to where at Indoor Nationals 2011 for those competing in the Pro Division.


DIANE, WHY WASNT A MAILING SENT OUT TO THE PRO MEMBERSHIP ON THIS TOPIC AND OTHERS THAT WOULD BE VOTED ON? THAT IS WHY WE NO LONGER APPOINT A PRO CHAIRMAN AT OUR MEETINGS. WE NEVER HAVE ENOUGH MEMBERS AT THE MEETINGS TO GET A REAL OPPINION OF WHAT THE MEMBERSHIP WANTS.
IT SEEMS THIS WOULD HAVE MADE THINGS A LOT LES CONTROVERSAL.

JMO, SCOTT (22yr MEMBER)


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## Diane Watson

Scott, 

First - Thank you for being a member of the NFAA For 22 years. Have you been a member of the Pro Division or the PAA for that many years as well? 

If you've been a member of the Pro Division then you are aware of the issue's that we have had with the Dress Code for many many years. Prior to me becoming Pro Chair - there was a never ending argument over the dress code by the Pro's. It consumed everything we did. So, for many reasons...Michael was able to get it removed. Then the issue of torn jeans began to show up on the shooting line. When I was elected in 2007 there were several issues that needed to be addressed, however, in order to begin to address the major issue's we need the NFAA Directors to be behind the Pro Division. As you know it is the Directors that really control what we do. One of the biggest complaints, that I hear from the directors is our attire. I have brought our attire up at several Pro meetings and the last being the meeting at Field Nationals in July of 09. I chose not to send out a survey because honestly, in the past, survey's have been sent out; minutes with ballots for voting have been sent out and about only a 1/3 of the Pro's take the time to respond. Most of the Pro's that have something to say or want something accomplished or changed either go directly to their Director or call me, email me or attend a meeting at one of the National events. In terms of percentage's very few contact me - the majority go to their Directors, or they just aren't bothered by what happens. Remember, ultimately is the Directors that really control our destiny. So now I have a dilema, spend the money to get probably about a 1/3 of the survey's back, or go with what has been agreed upon at the meetings from those who are active Nationally and take the time to come to the meetings. So, I simply decided to not spend the money to do a survey, because honestly, does it really hurt anyone to wear dockers, cargo pants or a pair of slacks for two days, once a year? 

I keep hearing that we have larger issue's than a dress code. I can't agree more...but ask the simple question again, what is the issue with wearing a pair of dockers, cargo pants or a pair of slacks for two days (not even two whole days, really for a couple hours a day while you are on the shooting line), once a year?


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## Diane Watson

I agree with Ken, I encourage all of you to attend the Pro meeting in Louisville. It is scheduled for 9:30am on Sunday morning in the conference room upstairs by registration.


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## XCR1200

diane watson said:


> scott,
> 
> first - thank you for being a member of the nfaa for 22 years. Have you been a member of the pro division or the paa for that many years as well?
> 
> If you've been a member of the pro division then you are aware of the issue's that we have had with the dress code for many many years. Prior to me becoming pro chair - there was a never ending argument over the dress code by the pro's. It consumed everything we did. So, for many reasons...michael was able to get it removed. Then the issue of torn jeans began to show up on the shooting line. When i was elected in 2007 there were several issues that needed to be addressed, however, in order to begin to address the major issue's we need the nfaa directors to be behind the pro division. As you know it is the directors that really control what we do. One of the biggest complaints, that i hear from the directors is our attire. I have brought our attire up at several pro meetings and the last being the meeting at field nationals in july of 09. I chose not to send out a survey because honestly, in the past, survey's have been sent out; minutes with ballots for voting have been sent out and about only a 1/3 of the pro's take the time to respond. Most of the pro's that have something to say or want something accomplished or changed either go directly to their director or call me, email me or attend a meeting at one of the national events. In terms of percentage's very few contact me - the majority go to their directors, or they just aren't bothered by what happens. Remember, ultimately is the directors that really control our destiny. So now i have a dilema, spend the money to get probably about a 1/3 of the survey's back, or go with what has been agreed upon at the meetings from those who are active nationally and take the time to come to the meetings. So, i simply decided to not spend the money to do a survey, because honestly, does it really hurt anyone to wear dockers, cargo pants or a pair of slacks for two days, once a year?
> 
> I keep hearing that we have larger issue's than a dress code. I can't agree more...but ask the simple question again, what is the issue with wearing a pair of dockers, cargo pants or a pair of slacks for two days (not even two whole days, really for a couple hours a day while you are on the shooting line), once a year?


i have been a pro since 89, and yes this has been an issue for a long time. I personally dont have a problem with dockers. Wouldnt a 1/3 of membership been a better representation than the amount that was at the meeting at outdoor nat. Italways goes back to torn up jeans, lets be honest it just jeans in general becouse i see torn up cargo pants also, but hey there ok.


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## Diane Watson

That's awesome that you have been a Pro since 1989 and so you understand the problem. Hindsight, maybe a 1/3 would have a been a tiny bit better but if you look at those that are complaining on here - it's much less than a 1/3. 

I'm not trying to be difficult or a wise a** - just trying to be a bit realistic


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## 2fingers

I was a pro many years ago and came back to the pro ranks in the last 2 years and I all ways wanted to look "like a pro". This change will do nothing for 7/8 of the pros all ready looking good at nationals. :shade:


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## AT_X_HUNTER

What I don't understand about this rule is how it is written. That is my problem with it more than anything. Let me explain and understand I am not trying to be confrontational or condemming. I realize this is an attempt to show the National directors the pro div. is making an attempt. The rule was written to forbid denum pants under the pretense that those pants have holes and are trashy. The problem with that is any pants can have holes, be wrinkled, oversized, look trashy, or be worn in an "unprofessional" manner. I'm sure anyone would agree with that.

Secondly the rule states that shirts can't have any vulgur or offensive language or graphics. But why not require a collar? If you are going to attempt to push "nice pants" why not nice shirts? 

Additionally, and again this is just an observation, the only way I would have known about this change is on this site. I've not received anything via e-mail, post, or seen anything in the NFAA mag. The rule was proposed, drafted, and voted upon at the outdoor nationals by the handfull of members who attended that meeting. And yet I saw nor heard anything about this untill it was passed by the NFAA last month. I suppose that is my fault for not calling Diane. I would have gone to the meeting at outdoor nationals if I would have participated in the event.

Again, my problem is not the fact that I will have to wear dress pants. I have lots of them. Would I prefer to wear my un-torn levi jeans that just feel more comfortable? Sure I would. But it's really no big deal. It's just not having access to or knowing how to access the org.'s ideas/proposals that I have issue with.

I know this in not Diane's fault. It is the falut of the membership as a whole. There is a great deal of apathy. Only a couple members show up at the 2 meetings we have. So, I guess we get what we deserve. If the membership doesn't care to demand a say in what is done, then we will have to play by the rules written by the few that do. Or go back to ameture.

This is just my opinion. Granted, I've only been a pro member for a little over a year. But I've been shooting competitively for nearly 20. I'm not trying to sling mud or be a pain in this conversation. I'm just trying to express a different point of view.


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## JAY JAMES

Someone up the line ask the question, why was a mail out sent out to the pros. If this would have been done and it was voted on by everyone, I would not have a problem. I have a problem with it because it was done without most of us knowing about it. All pros should have been in on it, not a select few.


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## Scott.Barrett

JAY JAMES said:


> Someone up the line ask the question, why was a mail out sent out to the pros. If this would have been done and it was voted on by everyone, I would not have a problem. I have a problem with it because it was done without most of us knowing about it. All pros should have been in on it, not a select few.


How could you not have been aware of it? I knew this was on the agenda probably 2 months ago it was made public by the directors! All anyone had to do was read it and talk to their director. I personally spoke with my state director and the Southeast Councilman about it to make my feelings known, even though I live 5 miles from Diane!

In the end, we are most closely compared with golf as a sport. They don't even let amateurs wear jeans on most courses! We are talking about wearing khaki's for a few hours a day for a tournament that the majority of the Pro's in the US don't attend anyway. SHORTS ARE STILL ALLOWED!!!!!!

Heck, it would be nice if we could all just follow the FITA dress code for our events...that would be an upgrade to some of the clothing that I've seen on the course!

Scott Barrett


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## dragonheart

proXarchery said:


> another way to beat up archery. The dress code at IBO and ASA has not been a problem why punish people that want to shoot their bows. just my 2


Who is being punished? This is such a trip with all of the issues in archery that a pro dress code is this big a deal. Everyone is someones impression of archery. I always thought being a pro meant being held to a higher standard. Punished by having to were somewhat classy looking clothes that are absent of holes and that are not cut offs or rags. i really do not get this. I could understand if they dictated the color, and wanted everyone to look identical, but this really does not seem like that big of a deal.


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## Pro1

Ok I wasn't going to Post but I have too..I have been a Pro Member for 16 Years and an NFAA Member for 39...It is NO big deal to wear slacks..When Fita use to REQUIRE WITHOUT FAIL us to wear White Shirts and White Pants PERIOD...if you didn't want too guess what???? YOU DIDN'T SHOOT PERIOD...I have been hearing this dress code arguement for darn near 10 years now if not more and I go to EVERY Pro Meeting at ANY shoot I attend where they are having one..I am tired of it..the directors who RUN THE NFAA asked us to Clean Up they run the Org..AS BY THE WAY we voted them in by vote in our OWN STATES..So if they say it..It shall be done..If you don't want to do it..DON'T SHOOT INDOOR NATIONALS less competition for me and the others... I am sure most won't mind..It is a RULE it has been voted on...It is OVER.. This is a VERY minor rule..Bigger Issues I feel upset about are like the "Lucky Dog" rule which was passed for Vegas without hardly ANYONE knowing but I digress and won't get started on that again..Wear a pair of slacks for 2:45 a day for TWO DAYS A YEAR..If you don't want to...Drop out of the Pro Division or Don't shoot Indoor Nationals simple..Personally I think it is a good idea and I will comply with it....Pro1


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## field14

I'm no longer shooting in the Pro Division. I did in the past, and we had our 'unwritten' dress code back then. We dressed "the part" as in, we dressed according to the position as a Pro Organization member.

What is with today's people that dress like slobs? They are apparently clueless as to what appearing in public dressed appropriately means anymore.

Holey and torn jeans? A sloppy, unkempt t-shirt with who knows what sort of "stuff" written on it? Untied and/or torn tennis shoes or flip-flops? Unshaven faces (men), and tossed, tussled, or unkempt hair?

What happened to the "couth" people use to have and the respect that they had for themselves and those around them?

You can "rag" on me all you want, but personally, I'm absolutely appalled at how terrible so many "shooters" look when they attend an archery tournament these days. Notice I used the term "shooters"...and ARCHER doesn't dress in this manner for attendance of ANY shoot...let alone a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!

It would seem that common decency and some self-pride would prevail..but no.....people have it in their heads that they are going to do it THEIR WAY and do THEIR THING...and to h**l with any and all rules.

Well, like Pro1 says...if you don't like the RULE for the dress code, then by all means...do not sign up to shoot the tournament. Just means that the tournament will have fewer that are dressed like country hicks, and more shooters that take some pride in their personal grooming and their sport.

You all can complain all you want about the "new" dress code....but guess what? In the end...you will comply...or you won't shoot; plain and simple.

I think it is high time that people sit back and take stock of themselves and what they are doing to society with their pee-poor attitudes and narcissism. There has to be a breaking point where common sense and personal pride takes SOME precedence over self-expression. Society still does have SOME RULES...and things people must abide by, like it or not.

Tired of being told what to wear in archery tournaments? Then, please, by all means....don't go...go fishing or something where appearing in public in a decently dressed fashion doesn't matter.

REAL Pro ARCHERS know the standards and abide by them. Pro "shooters" and wannabees are still too stuck on themselves and their "freedome of expression" to ever realize how much they only look like a country bumpkin and stand out in the crowd, not as something to look up to...but something to laugh at..."Look what the cat drug in off the street."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## mastermind1769

anyone else got the urge to rip a couple holes in a pair of jeans? lol.

on a serious note, try finding a pair of "fashionable" jeans that are not "pre-distressed" these days. i can understand the dress code, as long as it stops here, there's a reason i dont shoot fita.


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