# ASA FL how will scores look with no 14's



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

This will be the first tournament of the year and the 14 ring will not be in play. How do you think it will affect scores and do you think more people will be in the hunt?


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Not 100% sure
Myself I liked the 14s - never went for them but seen a lot of guys let me gain ground on them by going for them and missing and scoreing a 8 or a 5. 
Wounder if Sims will be as popular as it has been in pass with the 14s gone


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

There may be an illusion that scores are closer because the lead pack will be 8-12 points not as far in front of the others where known yardage applies; less where it doesn't.

The scoring system alone won't change the results. Shooters that couldn't play the 14 game didn't have what it takes to win regardless. If you see new success, its probably a result of their improvement.... not a scoring system.

But hey, our nation elects presidents on a glimmer of false hope. If taking a fun part of the game away gives the weak links that warm fuzzy feeling for a minute.....well reality comes back around quickly. 

I play to find and overcome my weaknesses..... to get better every time. I guess others would rather whine until the game is changed to cater to their weaknesses. 

The faces on the podium will still be the best shooters, those with discipline and strategy and mental toughness.

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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

14s did make it fun!!!!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I will do a comparison of scores from last year at FL to this years results and see if there is any real change! Same ones should still be at the top but not by as much in the past. Don't like the 14's or 12's just count center as X and then score 10 ring as a 10 and 8 ring as a 9 and the rest of animal 8. Best possible score would be 400 40x and if you just hit all the targets the worst score would be 320 0X! Then we could see if anyone could clean a round all X's with no make up points.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

cenochs said:


> I will do a comparison of scores from last year at FL to this years results and see if there is any real change! Same ones should still be at the top but not by as much in the past.


That won't really work. Pretty much everywhere but Pro and Seniors.... the top tier won out. It's new faces every year.

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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Mike T and Dee took 14s away cause to many targets being sold after the shoot were damaged ie backs blown out due to 14s being shot. 

ASA like any business is there to make cash. We drive from hours away to shoot and have fun and all enjoy doing it but to them its about number and by numbers I mean $$$$$ at the end of the day


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Babyk said:


> Mike T and Dee took 14s away cause to many targets being sold after the shoot were damaged ie backs blown out due to 14s being shot.
> 
> ASA like any business is there to make cash. We drive from hours away to shoot and have fun and all enjoy doing it but to them its about number and by numbers I mean $$$$$ at the end of the day


I heard that argument a lot. But what I saw with my own eyes was hard quartered and short targets.

That kind of makes me quit listening to target preservation chatter.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Tony 
Couldnt agree more!!!!!

Hey whatever keep the money rolling in so Mike T and Dee can have there steak dinners!!!!

IMO there more to this 14 story than we know


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> That won't really work. Pretty much everywhere but Pro and Seniors.... the top tier won out. It's new faces every year.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


It will work in semi becuase my shootin buddy won FL last year and he still a semi so his winning score will be compared to this years winning score.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scores will be tighter over all and not as much spread in scores.

Should make those down the line finishing feel a little better. LOL

DB


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## BowtechGen3 (Jul 17, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> There may be an illusion that scores are closer because the lead pack will be 8-12 points not as far in front of the others where known yardage applies; less where it doesn't.
> 
> The scoring system alone won't change the results. Shooters that couldn't play the 14 game didn't have what it takes to win regardless. If you see new success, its probably a result of their improvement.... not a scoring system.
> 
> ...


I Agree 100%


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

the cream will rise to the top, it always does, as for the scores I dont think it will matter that much, there will be guns in every class


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Scores will inherently be higher this year. Nothing to do with the 14 but rather the upper 12 being brought into play. There will be more oppurtunities presented to shoot 12's if you call it before taking the shot. I know last year there were lots of times when I had to take a safe 10 rather than risk shooting for a 12 with two x-cutters and a 30X shaft stuck in it that would cause a glance out. Not this year. Same scenario and I call the upper 12 and nail it for bonus points. At least thats the way I see it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> Scores will inherently be higher this year. Nothing to do with the 14 but rather the upper 12 being brought into play. There will be more oppurtunities presented to shoot 12's if you call it before taking the shot. I know last year there were lots of times when I had to take a safe 10 rather than risk shooting for a 12 with two x-cutters and a 30X shaft stuck in it that would cause a glance out. Not this year. Same scenario and I call the upper 12 and nail it for bonus points. At least thats the way I see it.


And the 12's are bigger.....

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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

1.25" ??????


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

IRISH_11 said:


> 1.25" ??????


From memory it's 1.5".....

Check some other posts on here.... its beat to death.

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## ArcheryAdiction (Jan 5, 2012)

I dont really understsand why you guys had 14s thats seems crazy to me. In canada we have 5-8-10 and x with a best possible score of 440, that would be 40 x's.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

ArcheryAdiction said:


> I dont really understsand why you guys had 14s thats seems crazy to me. In canada we have 5-8-10 and x with a best possible score of 440, that would be 40 x's.


It's called risk and reward. Forces one to think and practice good course management.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> And the 12's are bigger.....
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


It's sort of an illusion to that.....the 10is slightly bigger, thus With the new 12/11 not touching about 5/8in between the lines it looks smaller..we had the new cores on some of the targets this weekend..
To answer the other person 1.5 in 12s


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> It's sort of an illusion to that.....the 10is slightly bigger, thus With the new 12/11 not touching about 5/8in between the lines it looks smaller..we had the new cores on some of the targets this weekend..
> To answer the other person 1.5 in 12s


It might look smaller but 1.5" is a lot bigger than the 12's averaged last year.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

With the new cores for targets I don't know why we don't have ASA ones and IBO plugs.


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## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

I never liked the 14 rings. Mystrong point was always judging ang my shooting was average at best. So i always aim at 2 oclock or 10 oclock at 12 and by end of day hit 6-8. If yardage was on i could get out of there with only 1-2 8's and be set to go into next day. If another shooter hit a 5 or two they have hard time catching me. With the 14 they hit the two 5's so they pretty much are out of it so gun at a couple 14's. i can see where people would like the 14 but for my range management i dont like them.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I dont know what to expect - I have to get a full 6 months of target estimation practice done thurs/Friday....I have not judged a McKenzie target since June, I havent judged a Rinehart since first of Aug


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Well I'm not gonna make it. I won't to but all my riding buddies have backed out. So I'm just not up to a 12 hr drive by myself, plus all the expense. 

Good luck to all and hope y'all shoot good. I'll be checking scores.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Garceau said:


> I dont know what to expect - I have to get a full 6 months of target estimation practice done thurs/Friday....I have not judged a McKenzie target since June, I havent judged a Rinehart since first of Aug


Well you won't have to worry about.the reinharts we don't shoot them..lol


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Targets would last a helluva lot longer, a lot fewer holes in the targets to aim at though!

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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't think they will be that different because the guys who used the 14 as a excuse to shoot at it and hide the fact that they aren't that good will find other reasons to flush their scores down the toilet. I think almost every group that I shot in last year had at leas one guy who would start out the weekend staying in the 10 ring trying to get 12's but as soon as something went wrong they started just shooting at 14's.

To me these guys will be the ones who aim dead on at the 12 and drop out most of the time and they will just continue doing it over and over since they don't have the 14 to fire at.


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

I like the more difficult shots and just X or non-X better. (That's how most Eu matches are played out) 12-10 is fine, but'd be nice if they did something else that would separate the higher skilled shooters from the rest.

I'd have to add that the 14's did make the mental game more interesting. It was a risk after all, I tended to grab a few if I thought the 12's were easy to get, and after a few 14's I'd try to avoid shooting them at fear of missing, knowing I already had enough to bump my mostly 12's just that bit higher to take the podium. But missing them could be quite devastating and demoralizing too, and pushing you to take the risk again just to catch up again.

No but really, I'd prefer harder to hit targets, kill - hit or either 12-10 -8 over 14-12-10-8 and easier targets. A lot of things get dumbed down nowadays, people are setting up score systems so the weaker contestants don't look so bad, but in the end, everybody knows that a 200/320 points in a 3D is a poor score. If anything, they should increase the difficulty for the more skilled shooters to keep the sport interesting and the scoring clear and differential.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

The winning scores will be slightly lower, and by slightly I mean just barely. The slightly overall larger 12, along with the ability to call the upper 12 will offset some of the 14s.....which I think will lead to slightly lower winning scores.....


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I really don't think there is going to be much of a difference at all. Most of those in K50 that where in the top 5 or so normally shot mostly 12's. Me personally I liked the 14 option it just went hand n hand with course management. Know I'll just have to change it for the uppers and lowers.


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Biggest thing is not letting your brain outshoot your ability.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

The scores will be similar to what they are now from a winning standpoint. 

But if you want to do a comparison. That's simple....go back a few years and look at the scores. It's not like the 14 ring has been around forever. 


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> There may be an illusion that scores are closer because the lead pack will be 8-12 points not as far in front of the others where known yardage applies; less where it doesn't.
> 
> The scoring system alone won't change the results. Shooters that couldn't play the 14 game didn't have what it takes to win regardless. If you see new success, its probably a result of their improvement.... not a scoring system.
> 
> ...



Exactly! We must be wired the same.


As for getting rid of the 14's because of shot out targets.... Complete hogwash. Take all the shots that supposedly blew out the 14's and add them into the 12's. Bye, bye center core...... I sure hope they have plenty of cores close by on the K45 ranges.

Sure there are going to be more folks that appear to be closer to the leaders but by the end of the season they'll realize that being 12 back after the first day this year is the same as being 20 back last year. Personally, I shot the 14 when it felt right and I didn't when it didn't "feel" right. I'm not a great K45 archer by any means but I bet most of the top guys in the class did the same. I missed VERY few 14's and the biggest miss I actually hit where I intended to hit........I just aimed at the wrong spot on the short yardage leopard in KY.

In fairness there will occasionally be someone that is shooting at the 12/10 line that gets *lucky * and happens to hit a bunch of 12's. They'll finish high up the list at a single tournament but they won't be near the top consistently having a score inflated by luck. Nope the guys that consistently finish at the top with the 14 will also be well out front without the 14......... and the terrible target damage that the 14 supposedly caused will now be placed in and around the 12. Heck, even with the 14 in play some of the 12's were chewed up real bad and it WILL be worse now.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Six to ten up will be in the top five in most turn there will be no more thirty ups


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

JimmyP said:


> Six to ten up will be in the top five in most turn there will be no more thirty ups


LOL Jimmy. 



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## wannabe even (Dec 30, 2009)

Mid twentys upper teens if no one is shooting over there head which I wouldn't mind shooting above my skill level


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

your still going to see some 36+ ups in the known classes and I can see teens and mid twentys in open A and semi


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

okarcher said:


> your still going to see some 36+ ups in the known classes and I can see teens and mid twentys in open A and semi


Agreed. The game will still be 50%+ bonus rings at the top in Known classes with very few mistakes or missed opportunities. 

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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Hopefully my score will be higher. I now have no reason to get stupid shooting at 14's.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

With the law of averages....if you stick with shooting 10/12s and not worry about the 14s you would of came out better in the game..... There are those few that are in that ''short'' distances that the top creame of the crop will more then likely gun for back in the day we can say now......I know a few have been working on keeping up into the upper quadrant of the 10 for the 10/12s


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## kempcrete (Jun 26, 2011)

I find it to be slightly halarious that guys think that the top shooters in any class accidentally hit what their shooting at 20 outta 40 shots. With that being said if a guy hit on average three 14 rings in a weekend and you take those away from him chances are he is going to hit the twelve instead so we are only talking a 6 point difference for the weekend. So yeah there may not be a 50 up anymore there will still be 40 up on the board. When there are 50% bonus rings hit the scores are gonna be high. Time will tell. Good luck to everybody this weekend. Looks like the weather is gonna be awesome.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> With the law of averages....if you stick with shooting 10/12s and not worry about the 14s you would of came out better in the game..... There are those few that are in that ''short'' distances that the top creame of the crop will more then likely gun for back in the day we can say now......I know a few have been working on keeping up into the upper quadrant of the 10 for the 10/12s


That may be for most shooters in most of the classes. But it is *NOT* the case for the top archers in any of the adult classes unless they over estimate their abilities! 
I hit about 9 out of 10 14's that I shot at in K45 and in Hunter. If I had stayed with shooting at the edge of the 12 I would have even been further back in the pack.

There is a progression 3D archers take and it is based on how their skills and their rate of development. In local tournaments or practice rounds the archer pushes himself to gain experience and knowledge of what he can and can not accomplish. In big tournaments you use what you have learned to maximize your score.

**Know your abilities
1) Keep'em in the 10 ring.... after mastering 
then
2) lean lightly towards the 12..... after mastering
then
3) lean harder on the 12....... after mastering
then
4) go for an occasional 14 and lean harder on the 12 based on the target and experience
then
5) shoot at center 14's more often and aim pretty much center 12 on even more targets. At this point the archer should be hitting a very high percentage of the 14's he shoots at.

Over estimating your skill level will cost you points. All along the way you get better at decision making. The when, where and how to hit more 14's and 12's becomes more 'instinctive' than a thought out decision. It's not all about the yardage to the target or the size of the target that determines when you went after the 14 or go after the 12 aggressively. 

Yes, there will be days where a top level shooter is a bit 'unlucky' and just misses too many 12's and/or happens to be the 6th shooter on the easy targets and gets knocked into the 8 ring to fall back a few places. While a lesser archer gets 'lucky' and shoots first on more easy targets, hits more 12's than he deserves and jumps up a few places. But in the end the guys that rely very little on 'luck' will absolutely pound the guys that head onto the range hoping they pick up a bunch of points based on 'luck'. 

On occasion, what is going to stink is that those of us that would shoot at the 14 will come to the stake having to slam one into a 12 ring with arrows sprayed all around it. With 5 or 6 shooters to a stake in K45 there will be even more targets where it is ALL luck as to whether you shoot at a big open 12 or a bunch of nocks on an easy target. That is the kind of 'luck' that has NO place in competition and should be limited as much as possible. It is based on the luck of the draw and has nothing to do with skill. I guess that is the point of removing the 14 from the playing field.... Not such a big deal with 4 archers to a stake but in K45 if there are 6 competent archers to a stake a bunch of points may be based on luck of the draw.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Well, let me ask the SOY of K45 last year if that isn't the case , Kent.....I know how and what he shoots.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> On occasion, what is going to stink is that those of us that would shoot at the 14 will come to the stake having to slam one into a 12 ring with arrows sprayed all around it. With 5 or 6 shooters to a stake in K45 there will be even more targets where it is ALL luck as to whether you shoot at a big open 12 or a bunch of nocks on an easy target. That is the kind of 'luck' that has NO place in competition and should be limited as much as possible. It is based on the luck of the draw and has nothing to do with skill. I guess that is the point of removing the 14 from the playing field.... Not such a big deal with 4 archers to a stake but in K45 if there are 6 competent archers to a stake a bunch of points may be based on luck of the draw.


Upper 12 makes up for this. There will still be two bonus rings in play, just like last year.

I don't think the removal of the 14 will make a huge difference, but one area that might change is in the unknown classes. The last few years, ranges have gotten very easy and some shooters who don't judge distances well are very good at hitting 14's on close targets. This year, I think the ranges will be much longer on average and yardage judging will be more important than ever. It won't be as much of a "spot shoot" as it has in recent years.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Well, let me ask the SOY of K45 last year if that isn't the case , Kent.....I know how and what he shoots.


Ask him and I also know how and what I shoot........most of the time. What is your point? That I'm clueless? 

Tim, I shot in two K45 tournaments in 2012 and beat him both times. So I won't be anxiously waiting for your report. Kentucky and the Classic if you must see for yourself.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

shootist said:


> Upper 12 makes up for this. There will still be two bonus rings in play, just like last year.
> 
> I don't think the removal of the 14 will make a huge difference, but one area that might change is in the unknown classes.  The last few years, ranges have gotten very easy and some shooters who don't judge distances well are very good at hitting 14's on close targets. This year, I think the ranges will be much longer on average and yardage judging will be more important than ever. It won't be as much of a "spot shoot" as it has in recent years.


That is the primary reason targets get shot out. It's not because folks are shooting at the 14.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> That is the primary reason targets get shot out. It's not because folks are shooting at the 14.


I think it's more because people are shooting oversized shafts...... but then again THIS IS MY opinion


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> Ask him and I also know how and what I shoot........most of the time. What is your point? That I'm clueless?
> 
> Tim, I shot in two K45 tournaments in 2012 and beat him both times. So I won't be anxiously waiting for your report. Kentucky and the Classic if you must see for yourself.


Kent.....not bad shooting..... but again....my post is of my thought and opinion of what will / and is going to happpen..... No other point to it other than that.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

The larger 1.5" 12 and 10 ring will most likely increase the over all average score, especially with the upper 12 available.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

I can't wait leaving Thursday lets go play its archery time


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

From what I can tell comparing scores from this year to last at FL it looks like only a 4 to 6 point difference so taking the 14's out didn't make a difference!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Based on the bonus ring counts, I suspect the ranges were tougher than they have been too.

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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The ranges.were a little.longer....and there was some angle on the target ..from slight.to almost fully walking.away....but we all had to shoot it =)


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