# single spot vs. 5 spot



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

index finger release,thumb release or a true hinge release ?


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Form, set up and shot execution is the answer. Not a target issue.


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## jakefd (Jan 29, 2014)

The single target simplifies things in your head. Allows you to concentrate on other parts of the shot


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Your stance needs to move from right to left side or target


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Larry Nelson said:


> Looking for thoughts about why I have more trouble scoring well on a 5 spot target than the single spot. I have been shooting 280's on the single and 270's on the 5 spot. I shoot a sure loc with a 6x lens and #2 clarifer. my sight picture isclear and crisp. I have a ring on my lens so I center the bull in the ring and the scope in the peep. I am thinking that it is a mental block or something like that. So any thoughts will begreatly appreciated.


IMO the 5 spot is probably introducing extra (doubtful) thoughts into your head that don't exist with the single spot.
examples
- "Am I shooting at the right spot?"
- "How come I keep shooting low on the last spot?"
- "Hope I don't throw one wide of the 4-ring and take a zero"

Also, it's generally less stressful to shoot at a "hole" in the middle of a target than a fresh X-ring. You get a "hole" in the middle a lot quicker when you're shooting a single spot.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Very normal. It is much easier to get in a groove and drive them down a single pipe. Shoot the one dot side until you shoot regular 290ish, or you get tired of buying nocks, arrows, and/or refletching.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> IMO the 5 spot is probably introducing extra (doubtful) thoughts into your head that don't exist with the single spot.
> examples
> - "Am I shooting at the right spot?"
> - "How come I keep shooting low on the last spot?"
> ...





TNMAN said:


> Very normal. It is much easier to get in a groove and drive them down a single pipe. Shoot the one dot side until you shoot regular 290ish, or you get tired of buying nocks, arrows, and/or refletching.


Pretty much true.....


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

I will be going to the range this morning and I will try changing my stance back and forth between the sides of the target. I am shooting a Stan thumb trigger. When I shoot my focus is on the target and the shot goes off without much thought. I do punch it on occasion but not with any regularity. I also freely admit I enjoy shooting the center of the target out of it. I also like the thunk the arrow makes in the center vs the sound of the arrow hitting the fresher cardboard on the 5 spot. I have already gotten tired of replacing arrows. They are not cheap in any form. Glad I am not using x10's or any of the other more expensive brands. I do wish I could afford them, but not unless I win the lottery.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Larry Nelson said:


> I will be going to the range this morning and I will try changing my stance back and forth between the sides of the target. I am shooting a Stan thumb trigger. When I shoot my focus is on the target and the shot goes off without much thought. I do punch it on occasion but not with any regularity. I also freely admit I enjoy shooting the center of the target out of it. I also like the thunk the arrow makes in the center vs the sound of the arrow hitting the fresher cardboard on the 5 spot. I have already gotten tired of replacing arrows. They are not cheap in any form. Glad I am not using x10's or any of the other more expensive brands. I do wish I could afford them, but not unless I win the lottery.


a hinge release may help some too ?


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## TimberGhost74 (Nov 22, 2016)

My wife and are newer shooters, been shooting 9 months now. We just went through this last winter. For me, it was 100% fear of scoring a miss in front of people. It took a lot of practice, but I got over it. Once I started breaking 290, then it became a non issue. My wife shot a single spot all winter, and did just fine, but did junk a lot of arrows. 

This summer we have been shooting a lot of 3d, and even some field target stuff. Upgraded my wifes bow, and bolt on stuff as well. We are still going to shoot BHFS class this winter, but I am looking forward to see how much we have improved since last winter. 

It is all mental, just like others have stated above. Once I got the fear of missing out of my head, I jumped 10 points.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

I agree with nestly and the others. Also, if for example you're not physically up to par (usually my problem), you can start breaking down at a particular arrow. For me, it's generally the 3rd arrow when I'm getting tired. That can aggravate the lapses in concentration that nestly talked about: "the 3rd arrow is always bad...." can creep in and distract you. On a 5 spot, that usually makes the center spot a challenge. on a 3 spot, though, it's usually the 2nd that I have trouble with. Go figure...

But it's 100% mental I agree and it just takes practice until you trust your execution on every one....

lee.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Either ditch the lense or go to maximum 2× until you are averaging better than 295. The high mag and thumb trigger are setting you up for problems down the road.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Larry Nelson said:


> I do punch it on occasion but not with any regularity.


If you're still punching the trigger even occasionally, that can contribute to not trusting your shot on a particular face. Don't ask me why I know that . So underlyingly you might still have an anticipation issue that might bear looking at and is showing up as a face-X-bad-every-time symptom. Not punching at all, 100% of the time will help keep the yips away on target face X....

lee.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

lees said:


> If you're still punching the trigger even occasionally, that can contribute to not trusting your shot on a particular face. Don't ask me why I know that . So underlyingly you might still have an anticipation issue that might bear looking at and is showing up as a face-X-bad-every-time symptom. Not punching at all, 100% of the time will help keep the yips away on target face X....
> 
> lee.


 that`s why you need to learn to shoot a hinge,you won`t ever punch again and your scores will be higher


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Pete53 said:


> that`s why you need to learn to shoot a hinge,you won`t ever punch again and your scores will be higher


Or for that matter, a tension-style release would be slightly easier to learn a pull-through style shot than even a hinge. That said, my scores are the highest they've ever been with an index finger release, but shot with the same method as the tension-style releases I shot for several years (carter Evo) prior to going back to the index-finger. the trick is to learn the shot style and actually shoot with it for a long time (a year or more). Then revisit the trigger once you're truly comfortable with the pull-through style surprise release method. 

That's just how I did it though, and not necessarily how anyone else should do it. Nowadays, I only occasionally have problems with the lower left spot on a vegas face and generally it doesn't bother me that much anymore.

lee.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Pete53 said:


> that`s why you need to learn to shoot a hinge,you won`t ever punch again and your scores will be higher


In some cases, easier said than done. You hear of people going to a hinge and then silence. Yeah, you don't hear of these people giving up on the hinge. And don't think for a second you can't punch a hinge and that hinge is the cure all for target panic. In fact, people have got target panic with using a hinge....


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> In some cases, easier said than done. You hear of people going to a hinge and then silence. Yeah, you don't hear of these people giving up on the hinge. And don't think for a second you can't punch a hinge and that hinge is the cure all for target panic. In fact, people have got target panic with using a hinge....


Yepper, totally agree. In my short experience with a hinge I did develop a freezing type of anticipation issue that I'd never experienced with anything before then. I have no problem with it now after a couple years with an Evolution, now I can just hook on and pull through the shot. But had I started with a hinge with no other changes to my shot routine that I needed anyway, I might have ended up back in the bad old days of TP and jerking on the shot. 

like anything else, I would say you have to learn how to use it the right way for your shot like any other release. And yes you can punch pretty much anything, especially a hinge...

lee.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

TNMAN said:


> Very normal. It is much easier to get in a groove and drive them down a single pipe. Shoot the one dot side until you shoot regular 290ish, or you get tired of buying nocks, arrows, and/or refletching.


My wife shoots a single spot with her skinnies (GT Ultralight) with pin nocks. At 30lbs DW and around a 290 average, I only have to replace a lot of nocks.
When she shoots her 30X's, then she goes to a 5 spot and her scores go down for a few weeks until she acclimates to it.

It sounds like you've done the aggressive spending part, now it might be good to spend a bunch of quality time behind the string and maybe get some coaching...


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It really doesn't matter what ability level you are at, all of us make really good shots. The key is to choose to train correctly, when you feel a good shot then spend the rest of the training that day trying to replicate that great shot. Sooner or later you will learn how to replicate it over and over. That is what good shooters have the ability to do, the pro shooters can do it all day long every day and only really struggle when thousands of dollars are on the line. Us non pro shooters have a certain amount of bad executions per day. Notice that when I talk about that stuff above I am not talking about accuracy, I am only talking about good executions. 

When I read this thread through I kept thinking about the comparisions to single spot to 5-spot targets and your scores, you really need to consider stop keeping score and just working on the execution.

For example:

Lay out two or three releases, Then start shooting and every time you miss a x you pick up another release. If you miss three in a row then you are back to the first release after three shots, so what. Just keep doing it. Sooner or later you may make it to 5 and then 10 and then 20 or 30 shots where you haven't missed and you are just smoking along but the moment you miss you lay it down and get another one. I started doing this type of training years ago when I was only able to shoot about 4 out of 5 x' on a f-spot target, after about 2 months I found myself shooting 50 to 70 x's in a row on a regular basis and late that winter I shot my first 60x round in practice. 

When I first started shooting 5-spot targets I shot scoring rounds over and over and over and did nothing but get frustrated, by stopping and allowing myself to just execute smooth shots with the drill above I was able to focus on other things than scoring and it allowed me to progress. I have some other drills like that one that are not score based that I also enjoyed during that time.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> In some cases, easier said than done. You hear of people going to a hinge and then silence. Yeah, you don't hear of these people giving up on the hinge. And don't think for a second you can't punch a hinge and that hinge is the cure all for target panic. In fact, people have got target panic with using a hinge....


Changing release styles is ONE step to committing to a proper shot process. It's not that hinges and tension releases are magic...they just give you an opportunity to change your approach to shooting.

There are those that will continue to shoot bad shots when changing releases. That's a matter of not giving full effort to changing, or in rare occasions due to severe cases of panic. 

OP - its all in your head. If you tell yourself that you'll have trouble on the 5-spot...you're gonna have trouble on the five spot. It starts going downhill even before you start shooting. Change your attitude towards it, give each and every arrow your best shot and effort. Shoot every shot like it cost you $20 to shoot it, or whatever the amount is that would make you care about where the arrow lands.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

TNMAN said:


> Very normal. It is much easier to get in a groove and drive them down a single pipe. Shoot the one dot side until you shoot regular 290ish, or you get tired of buying nocks, arrows, and/or refletching.


This ^^^. I had a similar problem all last winter.... I'd drop 10-12 points shooting a 5 spot but only one (sometimes 2) points shooting a single spot... What you have to decide is it worth the $$$ to shoot a single?









It was worth it to me (I wanted to WIN) to finish the season on a single spot and have been practicing on a 5 spot only since march... I've put up a couple clean targets in practice, now I hope I can do the same when the league starts up again.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

i believe a little background is in order here. In 1983 I busted the hell out of my left elbow. Up to that point I had been shooting from about age 7. After that accident I was afraid to even try to draw a bow. A few years ago I had another sugery and they removed the end of the radius bone so I could have better movement in my hand and arm. Just over a year ago I went to see if I could pull a bow again. I was thrilled to find out I could and purchased the bow I am re 
using now. I did loose 2 inches of draw lenght because my elbow doesnt get straight. I am only able to shoot a lower draw weight now (35#). 

At this point I figure I am doing alright. I most likely will never be able to get back all that I lost. But, that will never stop me from trying. All you gentlemen have given good advise, and I really appreciate that. I think the fellow that mentioned physical ability may have hit the bullseye. I dont think that changing releases or things like that is the answer. I do think some of the mental aspects will help. The main thing I have to do is continueing to practice making good shots. I have to face the fact that I am still developing my form and shot execution routine. to the extent of my physical ability.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Larry Nelson said:


> i believe a little background is in order here. In 1983 I busted the hell out of my left elbow. Up to that point I had been shooting from about age 7. After that accident I was afraid to even try to draw a bow. A few years ago I had another sugery and they removed the end of the radius bone so I could have better movement in my hand and arm. Just over a year ago I went to see if I could pull a bow again. I was thrilled to find out I could and purchased the bow I am re
> using now. I did loose 2 inches of draw lenght because my elbow doesnt get straight. I am only able to shoot a lower draw weight now (35#).
> 
> At this point I figure I am doing alright. I most likely will never be able to get back all that I lost. But, that will never stop me from trying. All you gentlemen have given good advise, and I really appreciate that. I think the fellow that mentioned physical ability may have hit the bullseye. I dont think that changing releases or things like that is the answer. I do think some of the mental aspects will help. The main thing I have to do is continueing to practice making good shots. I have to face the fact that I am still developing my form and shot execution routine. to the extent of my physical ability.


I'm currently at 15# working my way back from shoulder surgery...hope to squeeze a couple days into our elk season, though that's seeming unlikely at this point. 

I guarantee you that if you keep increasing the number of good shots you make you will end up scoring higher...in fact start keeping track of the number of good and perfect shots you make as a reference of where you are now.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm at about #37 lbs (estimated) on my PSE and shot a 298 in practice a couple weeks ago with it. Not repeated yet so that 298 may go on my gravestone, but anyway - you don't need a lot of poundage to kill paper. The supra max does a respectable job at that weight at 50 meters too, with a set of ACE's. So lots of options for low poundage....

lee.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Assuming you are right handed that means you are going to have stability problems in general, but especially if you try to increase mass to slow the bow.
I'll mention it again: that 6× lens is going to cause you problems. You will think you need to slow the movement down (you do, but that is a different topic) in order to shoot good shots. If you try adding mass and/or holding weight then that elbow will not be happy.
Truth is you don't need a tiny float or any magnification to shoot a 300 5-spot and almost anyone can punch their way into the 290s, but then they hit a wall. They can't seem to time the punch to the float and the harder they try the worse it floats.

What you need are smooth shots. You can't make smooth shots with the entire 5 ring dancing in and out of your scope.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

The thing I am looking at is to be competitive. Last indoor league my avg was at the bottom of the list amongst all shooters. That is hardly acceptable to me. My goal the new season is to be in the middle of the pack. Our league doesnt have any age classification so at 69 (next month) I am shooting against those that are much younger and steadier. I am not complaining. I still want to win against all comers. It is up to me to put myself in position to do that. In order for me to do it I have to over come all of the physical and mental barriers I see. With folks like you to share thoughts and ideas with me I can make those adjustments I need to.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

grantmac youare correct inthat I am right handed. I have plans on getting a new sight and will stay with a single pin and no lens. But, until I can do that I have to use what I have at hand. I have seen that the lens makes for a less steady sight picture. I generally have about 2 or 3 seconds of steadiness before the floating starts. If i am not centered before the floating starts it is much more diffacult to make a good shot. I am still learning and i take all input seriously.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Your last post says so much about where you are at as a shooter, your description of your 2 to 3 seconds of steadiness and then floating is telling me so much about how your approach to even getting the shot started is hurting you. To me I could help much more if we did a phone call so that I could hear you spell out things and then I can trouble shoot and give you ideas to what things have to leave forever and what things can stick around.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

Padget, Im always wlling to listen to those that know more than I do. I am a new archer again and new to this forum, so I dont know some of the finer points of either. When I am shooting I can tell if I drop my bow hand during a shot. I can tell when I flinch or pull off the bull. I can also tell when I make a good shot. I can also tell when I start to cave in, something with my physical ability. I am very aware of just how much I have to work with. I believe than my physical ability does limit me up to a point, but I am not going to use that as an excuse for not scoring better. I try to use that as a reason to improve. I shoot about an hour a day. maybe 3 or 4 days a week. I have the time to shoot more, but not the stamina for it. If you would like to talk I would be more than willing to listen to what you have to say. I can be reached @ 920-627-2282.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My best friend Donnie was a guy that I have shot with for years in indoor and 3d but to relate to you I will talk about his indoor. After about 6 years of indoor with him he had never shot a 300 5-spot, every time he had arrows that were in the blue. It got to the point where I don't think he believed that he could do it so he just accepted the fact that some arrows would be out there.

Finally

He asked me for help and I drove to his house for the first time ever and I actually told him all the things that I felt like he needed to hear, he listened and soaked it in and for the first time he had specific things to work on and train. 

Last winter:

Donnie shot more than one 300 20x to 300 22x vegas rounds, not to mention he can now put up 300 52x to 54x 5-spot rounds all the time. Staying in the white or yellow is not a concern anymore, staying in the 10 ring or the x is his new level.

At some point in time you have to ask, I have worked with and helped a few thousand people over the years here on archery talk with the same things that I offered Donnie. I shoot at least 40 tournaments with him per year and we are best friends but in the end he just had to ask, I didn't pull any punches and I told him some things that he really didn't want to fess up to but once they were on the table they ended up being so easy to tackle and either eliminate from his shooting or make them fundamental things to help instead of hamper his efforts.

This January, Donnie and I went to a shoot that I normally win and I had a really nice day shooting a strong score that normally gives me a win there. Not only did I not win but Donnie beat me by 8 points I think and he was unstoppable. To say it was something special to watch him do it does not even begin to tell you how sweet it was, it is one thing when you stink up the place and a buddy that normally doesn't beat you gets a win but when you put up a good score and he smokes you it is awesome.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

Had a great conversation with padgett today. Learned of his website and promptly went there and started reading. Some things he has to say make perfect sence. While others I had to read over a couple times, mostly figuring out his terminology. I dont necessarly agree with everything, but I will not discount it because I want to keep an open mind. I guess I wear a Missouri shirt at times. The biggest thing I have picked up is that making good shots is the key to becoming a better archer. I have learned someting from most of you that have joined in on this topic. That is why I started it. Thanks to all that joined in.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

idiot proof archery by Bernie Pellerite this book will help become a better archery.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I liked the Bernie book also, it was a wonderful start to my journey years ago.

When you are working alone at home the biggest issue is there is nobody there to point out the main issues. So you may in your mind pick one to work on or eliminate but there are 4 other big ones killing any chance of things getting better. That is why it is so important to sit down and make a list of the things that you already know are issues and do everything in your power to eliminate them right now. If you have things in your shooting form or execution or setup that you know are bad and you choose to accept them or ignore them they just find a way to stop you from progressing.

I hate saying things like what I put above without listing out some issues so that you can see a example of what I am referring to so I will make a short list of things that could be on a shooters list of JUNK TO GET RID OF RIGHT NOW.

1. Not setting my grip, I am coming to full draw and then I am trying to slide my hand around so it feels good. I am going to set my grip before I draw perfectly and not try and change it mid shot.

2. Cam or rear stab in my hip, I am not going to let my bow just dangle as I stand there. I am going to get my bow on my hip with either the cam or the rear bar so that I have a nice consistent starting point.

3. I am gonna draw straight to my face: Leaning my head over to the side is causing issues so I am going to learn to draw straight back to anchor without worrying about misfires, I am going to be safe by not using my bicep during the draw cycle so I don't punch myself if I do have a misfire.

4. My Perfect Shot: I know what my perfect shots feel like so when I feel something wrong with my shot instead of trying to fix the problem I am going to let down every time. I am making the choice to only send my perfect ones on their way to the target.

5. Entering anchor: I am coming to full draw and having to move my head around way to much, I am going to learn how to have my head in a good position and come into anchor perfectly so I just enter and don't have to wiggle around to get in there and settled in.

6. Pitter Patter feet: Right now I am walking up to the shooting stake and I begin drawing the bow and during the draw cycle and during the anchoring phase I am still trying to get my feet set, I am going to work on having my feet and overall posture set so that I am ready to draw the bow and not have to change things.

7. Perfect Pin: Right now I am coming over to the bulleseye and I am waiting to start until the pin is perfect, I am going to work on letting go of the need to see perfection to even begin. I am going to allow myself to start my execution as I am settling onto the spot so that I can then continue as the pin float improves until the release fires.

8. Pausing: Every time I see something I don't like i pause my execution and my hand freezes up so that once the pin improves and I try and continue the shot I struggle to get it to fire. I am going to stop pausing my shot and only start it and let it run. If I have a few bad arrows because the release fires when the pin is off the spot that is fine because I am working on something.

8. Random follow through: I notice that my bow rotates or dives in funny directions every shot, I am going to work on a consistent follow through where my hand slightly jumps forward just as it fires and then my bow settles off to the side on a downward angle every shot the same way.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

well according to the list you have included here there is only one item that I need to work on. That being follow through. After my release fires I want my bow hand to stay open without grasping the bow. I want my bow to slowly rock forward because the tension of the draw is gone. I know the bow will not hit the ground because the sling will stay on my wrist. When this happens (about 75% of the time) I absolutely know that I am not torqueing the bow. This also allows me to keep my hand pointed at the target until the arrow impacts. Then I let down and prepare for the next shot. I am finding that it really makes no difference which target I am shooting, single or 5 spot, the process is the same. I have also found that a smaller scope works better for me. I dont see as much of the target, just the one spot I am aiming at.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Larry Nelson said:


> The biggest thing I have picked up is that making good shots Every Shot is the key to becoming a better archer. .


Make every shot your best shot. 

There's 60 arrows on that 5-spot and every one of them is worth the same when you launch it. To me, that's the real challenge of that game...not falling asleep during the middle 5th to 10 ends.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

I would add that not only do you make every shot your best. But, even if it is not, you have forget about the last arrow. It is already gone. Prepare for the next shot you are going to make and, make it your best shot.


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## Larry Nelson (Aug 22, 2017)

After more practice I am starting to like the 5 spot. I have begun to see my arrows differently. Rather Tha seeing them as a group, I see them all as my first arrow on the bull. Seemed to help today anyway.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Gotta love getting started. I haven't started shooting indoor yet and I am looking forward to it.


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## gmedina (Jul 18, 2016)

Wow. I found a very useful info here. I started to shot indoor last year and I started with 1 spot. I changed tons a things in my bow, rest, sight scope, lens, pin, arrows. Always I blame to my bow but, I never was consistent with my form or shooting execution. When I tried to shoot a 5 spots, I missed too many arrows. My head was thinking in groups... always I tried to find another arrow to use as reference. I finished the last year with 291 points with 33x's. This year I started to shoot 5 spots, changing the way I was thinking and the results were different. I started to shoot 300 (my best was 47 x's). But, I still have the issue with some points mentioned by Padgett. My form is not good enough. I forget set my bow hand properly (sometimes i add a little torque pressing the grip), sometimes i punch my release (I'm using a BT) and my stance is not good. 

It's a large learning process... Too many things to learn and change.

Thanks for share your experience!


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## gmedina (Jul 18, 2016)

Padgett said:


> I liked the Bernie book also, it was a wonderful start to my journey years ago.
> 
> When you are working alone at home the biggest issue is there is nobody there to point out the main issues. So you may in your mind pick one to work on or eliminate but there are 4 other big ones killing any chance of things getting better. That is why it is so important to sit down and make a list of the things that you already know are issues and do everything in your power to eliminate them right now. If you have things in your shooting form or execution or setup that you know are bad and you choose to accept them or ignore them they just find a way to stop you from progressing.
> 
> ...



I will take it and try to fix my issues following this! Thanks Padgett.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Keep in mind those were only a few things off the top of my head when I posted, when I am standing next to you I can make a list of them so quick of the little things getting in the way that we need to eliminate. If you can find a good solid shooter in your area to just do a garbage check from head to toe it can really speed the process up.

The other day I was working with a guy on something about his tuning I think and I had a feeling that it would help to see a video, by the time I watched the little 10 second video one time I already had 4 things that needed to be taken care of and after watching it 10 times the list grew. I told him that cleaning up his shooting form was way more important than the bare shaft tuning we were originally talking about and once he took care of the list then we could continue tuning.


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