# What rules would you think would stop cheating on a 3d event.



## Daniel Boone

Know some don't like to discuss it but we all know it happens.:angry:

Recently got to disscussion with a very long time 3d pro. He opened my eyes to this. Told me stuff I never heard before and seems never gets told. Believe me It happens. 

I have seen cheating ever year in some form and fashion ever year.:thumbs_do Was it last year they found a semi pro with range finder?

My thoughts on rules.


Myself wonder is Bi-nos should be restricted or done away with for tournaments. Want to carry cards that fine.

No cell phones on range at all other than for emergency in pockets. Guys could be putting in range distances for buddies. So many ways to cheat with new apps all the time.

Thing that really ruins it for me is when the judges and assoc know it happening and ignores it. If you don't belong in Novice class they should enforce it. 

Courses side by side you should skip a target between, one would have to be blind not to notice a targets the same distance or close if its 15 ft away from the target you shot.

No way anyone should choose who they shoot with it on national level event. Heck I don't think it should happen on local level. Local level shoot for fun if shooting with buddies. 

Any way with new assoc started I wonder what rules you think would be beneficial to stop any form of cheating.

Cheating isn't just a 3d thing in archery. It happens on other venues and archery assoc as well.


Try to discuss without name calling. Be adult, we all know it happens. If we want this sport to grow to what it can be all across the US. Rules must be set to insure fairness to all.


----------



## sawtoothscream

Agree with all the above. I just how people can cheat and feel good about their "win"


----------



## brownstonebear

At a national event people shouldnt shoot with with people they know.
check stations for all classes, binos checked and gear scaled etc.
Personally having a cell phone on me is a life line, for emergencies. I keep it on silent so that it doesnt hinder anyone and I let the group know that I have it with me because my wife has epilepsy. But there should be rules to enforce the texting and the phone calls on the coarse that dont envolve a emergency.
Also in my own opinion, a group shouldnt be allowed to walk up on another group while they are shooting at the stake. 
This is just my opinion.


----------



## salmon killer

On a two day shoot first day shoot with who ever you want .No phones on course period! No Binos. Have a picture of the target at the first stake on every target.No score first day shoot for fun move all shooting stakes for day two or have a differt course for compition. Day two shoot for score put everyone in there class they registerd in and do a five person draw put a marks on score cards randomly for two score keepers there will be a group decision on a score if the score keepers have a differance. Shot gun start.If it is a multi day shoot just repeat the procedure.If tie scores a shoot down on last day.


----------



## Daniel Boone

sawtoothscream said:


> Agree with all the above. I just how people can cheat and feel good about their "win"


 I have seen it for a $2.00 medal and its impossiable to stop on local levels.

But if assoc wants me to drive and spend $400.00 traveling to an event I want ever rule to insure fairness.
DB


----------



## salmon killer

I shot with a young fellow in a group last year and we have a desingnated score keeper ( club shoot) and we have been shooting 3d for 25 years and this young man said he would keep his own score thats fine. We shoot 40 targets and are setting down having a soda going over the scores and we ask the score keeper or score here read them out.And we ask the young man in our group what he shot and he told us his score and it was 20 points above everyone and my son looked at him and said but you shot three fives.No on could belive it he turned in his score card won a throphy my son was told by a range officer just to let it pass.


----------



## Bowtech11

Well quit, cheaters are going to cheat. People that want to win that bad will do everything in their power to learn new tricks. The semi pro with the rangefinding binos went out of his way to doctor them, I have seen some of my friends do it. You have to call it when it is seen, sure after awhile you will be shooting alone because you will find that 90% of the shooters break some part of the rule without thinking about it. Heck let's just not talk and have fun on the ranges, I mean if you rule out every conversation we will be robots shooting a bow. I go to have fun first, be around good friends and laugh, if I win fine if not hey I was not at work. Come on guys, life is too short to always worry what everyone else is doing


----------



## Bucks

the rangefinder thing was quite bad, but not at all a trend. no need to ban binos because of it.

two guys keeping score helps the pencil pushing

if its a serious shoot, the 4 shooters cannot all be friends.

cell phones are fine, and someone texting distances is strange. who is going to help the texter and who says his distances are accurate to begin with?

i am less concerned with cheaters than i am with the guys who take forever to shoot. they drive me nuts


----------



## Daniel Boone

Bowtech11 said:


> Well quit, cheaters are going to cheat. People that want to win that bad will do everything in their power to learn new tricks. The semi pro with the rangefinding binos went out of his way to doctor them, I have seen some of my friends do it. You have to call it when it is seen, sure after awhile you will be shooting alone because you will find that 90% of the shooters break some part of the rule without thinking about it. Heck let's just not talk and have fun on the ranges, I mean if you rule out every conversation we will be robots shooting a bow. I go to have fun first, be around good friends and laugh, if I win fine if not hey I was not at work. Come on guys, life is too short to always worry what everyone else is doing


Let never try and find a better way to improve 3d. Guess I should have quit years ago, because I dont like a cheater and have yet to find anyone who likes a cheater. Like you say cheaters are always going to cheat! Let just not keep score and just shoot for fun.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

Bucks said:


> the rangefinder thing was quite bad, but not at all a trend. no need to ban binos because of it.
> 
> two guys keeping score helps the pencil pushing
> 
> if its a serious shoot, the 4 shooters cannot all be friends.
> 
> cell phones are fine, and someone texting distances is strange. who is going to help the texter and who says his distances are accurate to begin with?
> 
> i am less concerned with cheaters than i am with the guys who take forever to shoot. they drive me nuts


Bucks you dont feel some can use there Binos today to range? Use to think it didn't happen but more and more are saying I'm wrong and realize it getting to be a problem. How about limit the power?
DB


----------



## MrPibb

The only person a cheater is hurting is himself....


----------



## Daniel Boone

MrPibb said:


> The only person a cheater is hurting is himself....


If he succeed's he stopped a archer like you who has done things by the rules from placing. But so often they get known for it on local level.
DB


----------



## Crow Terminator

Taking stuff away don't stop the cheating. That's the same mindset that the people wanting to take guns away have. Making new rules wont do it either IF the ones already in place are not being enforced.

What we need is for the rules we already have, to be enforced with severe penalties to the ones caught breaking them. Such as...if caught cheating by pencil pushing, or whatever else...then your tournament days are done for whatever organization you were shooting in forever. That simply takes the wind out of the sails. Get caught cheating in an ASA sanctioned event...your ASA days are done forever. Then send their record to the other organizations as well...maybe even get them banned from shooting in those too. The only shoots they would be able to partake in then, would be local shoots....and if the local shooters found them out, then they too could stop them from even being able to shoot in the local ones. At least stop them from prize winning anyway. As in, they could still pay to shoot but their score card would just go in the trash can as soon as they turned it in. 

Make an example or two out of some folks and make people see that they are serious about enforcing rules and those cheating will either stop and play fair or the cheaters will have to take up another sport because they wouldn't be eligible to shoot anymore tournaments.


----------



## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

All of this doesn't matter if it isn't enforced...enforcement of the rules on the books now is my vote.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Rehashing the topic of cheating time and time again ain't helping archery either.

The person found with the ranger finder binocs got caught and is paying the penalty.

The elimination of binoculars won't happen.

Cell phones and all other electronic items should be turned off during competition. I got it figured I'm there to compete, not talk to so and so on the phone, nor listen to music or play electronic games.

Of Bow Novice, if noting ASA, it's been beat to death. The poor sap at the State Level is at the mercy of some State Director and the not so good national only shooter can stay in Bow Novice forever so long as they don't win out.

Can't see skipping targets either. All have the same advantage - seeing the next target.

I have been placed with other than my friends or people I know at all NFAA and ASA State Championships and the one ASA ProAm I attended, so I'm unaware of the issue. All this past year I was placed in ASA Qualifiers as we signed up, friends and all, and our Director was present. Problem is, you shoot long enough and you will know a lot people, make new friends....

Of local level shooting, club 3Ds, shooting with friends, family or people you know is going to happen and no one can stop it regardless of shooting for awards. Try to stop it and you'll only hurt the club. Of money shoots I've seen group busting.

As for the new association, what rules they have should be held fast for state and national level, no disparity. I don't care about some cry baby State that might come. Want to stop the bow novice crap before it gets going, then don't have a bow novice level.


----------



## MrPibb

The only way I see to stop it completely on the National level is to have a designated unbiased score keeper with each group. The logistics of that are certainly an issue. That's 20 people per range..


----------



## Barn Burner Strings

What about making punishments very harsh. Something like if your caught once its a 1 year ban with return of prize money. If caught a second time your banned for life. I realize you still have to catch them and prove it, but if you knew you were going to get your hand chopped of for stealing a piece of bread your probably going to be less prone to stealing then if there is a less harsh punishment. Just a thought.


----------



## bhtr3d

SonnyThomas said:


> Rehashing the topic of cheating time and time again ain't helping archery either.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> The pro range at ASA Illinios did more then skip a target....they bounced (not litterally) back and forth across the trail . Keeping track of what the target is 2 lanes over and across is a major deture to that.


----------



## Kstigall

Daniel Boone said:


> Know some don't like to discuss it but we all know it happens.:angry:
> 
> Recently got to disscussion with a very long time 3d pro. He opened my eyes to this. Told me stuff I never heard before and seems never gets told. Believe me It happens.
> 
> I have seen cheating ever year in some form and fashion ever year.:thumbs_do Was it last year they found a semi pro with range finder?
> 
> My thoughts on rules.
> 
> 
> Myself wonder is Bi-nos should be restricted or done away with for tournaments. Want to carry cards that fine.
> 
> No cell phones on range at all other than for emergency in pockets. Guys could be putting in range distances for buddies. So many ways to cheat with new apps all the time.
> 
> Thing that really ruins it for me is when the judges and *assoc know it happening and ignores it*. If you don't belong in Novice class they should enforce it.
> 
> Courses side by side you should skip a target between, one would have to be blind not to notice a targets the same distance or close if its 15 ft away from the target you shot.
> 
> No way anyone should choose who they shoot with it on national level event. Heck I don't think it should happen on local level. Local level shoot for fun if shooting with buddies.
> 
> Any way with new assoc started I wonder what rules you think would be beneficial to stop any form of cheating.
> 
> Cheating isn't just a 3d thing in archery. It happens on other venues and archery assoc as well.
> 
> 
> Try to discuss without name calling. Be adult, we all know it happens. If we want this sport to grow to what it can be all across the US. Rules must be set to insure fairness to all.


The biggest issue is what I highlighted above. The NFAA, ASA and the IBO highest leaders all have at various times stuck their heads in the sand when blatant and notorious cheating or inappropriate conduct has occurred! The NFAA is the worst with the IBO second. In fact there is little doubt the structure and rules of the NFAA are a complete sham. The way the IBO runs tournaments and the course lay out makes it very easy for the IBO leadership to avoid any decisive decision making in real time, i.e. during a tournament.

A big issue with the IBO is not honestly breaking up groups and then the "group" erroneously scoring arrows but it's NOT cheating because the group majority rules.

The #1 enforcer for the NFAA is ArcheryTalk and peer pressure/abuse. Ironically, the NFAA leadership despise AT!

- You can not get rid of binos. The guys that have the money to buy a lot of targets would have an even greater advantage. Binos don't cheat, people do!
- The IBO should become more adaptable and willing to evolve.
- Skipping targets or spreading out targets seems like a good idea but is it reasonable? I'm not a good yardage guesser yet the ASA course layouts don't really help even me! I remember what happened on the last target and I KNOW the distance after I shoot it. I can look at the target know whether it's longer or shorter than the previous. It may help middle of the pack shooters to look at the next target while down range but it is unlikely to put them in the money. I just don't think it would be of much value to GREATLY increase the time it takes to layout ALL the courses, to greatly increase the space needed and to increase the amount of time it takes to shoot a course. It is not unheard of to take 3.5 hours to shoot a 20 target course as they are now laid out.

The ASA is the most advanced, creative and adaptable archery org. I haven't always agreed with ASA "changes" but they definitely strive to improve and to be up to date. 
The NFAA could most improve by having people with some intestinal fortitude as chairmen! 
The IBO could best improve by tuning their tournament format.


----------



## oldpro888

They need to do away with 3d. The killing of foam deer is cruel. Why not know the distance on every target? Why keep score, beating someone will only hurt feelings. Did I miss any?


----------



## SonnyThomas

bhtr3d said:


> SonnyThomas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rehashing the topic of cheating time and time again ain't helping archery either.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> The pro range at ASA Illinios did more then skip a target....they bounced (not litterally) back and forth across the trail . Keeping track of what the target is 2 lanes over and across is a major deture to that.
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, bhtr3d. I'll shoot anyway they want. So did scores suffer? Was there confusion? Still, I'd bet the same top shooters were at the top. Dang them
Click to expand...


----------



## Red57

If my " friends" were cheating , I would change Friends. "HONOR" is a gift a Man can give himself, there is NO honor in cheating nor accepting awards for such !!!


----------



## Bowtech11

What is funny is last year when the dude got caught cheating one of my buddies was just dogging him out, he proceeded to walk off the next target. I ask him if he wanted to shoot the rest of the targets or just stop now, he said what? I told him that he was in violation of a rule and that he could be DQ'd at that point I told him that wrong is wrong it is just how far do we want to take it. Rangefinders are a direct DQ no doubt but if we police it to a point that we DQ for every violation well there will not be a National event.


----------



## ProtecMan

DB, I agree with all your comments and understand your soliciting input for the new organization. ASA style ProAms have the Pros skipping targets, the question is, why do they do that for the Pros but not the Amateurs? I personally don't feel that it would take a lot more time to have the amateurs skip a target. If the new organization has a similar format, it would be something to consider.


----------



## Bowtech11

ProtecMan said:


> DB, I agree with all your comments and understand your soliciting input for the new organization. ASA style ProAms have the Pros skipping targets, the question is, why do they do that for the Pros but not the Amateurs? I personally don't feel that it would take a lot more time to have the amateurs skip a target. If the new organization has a similar format, it would be something to consider.


Dude the pros do it and complain about how slow it makes it. When we shoot it is already slow enough, four hours to shoot 20 targets is bad. You make it slower and I am through for sure.


----------



## Supermag1

Just like criminals are going to break the law, cheaters are going to cheat. It might take awhile to find a way around a new rule but the cheaters will figure it out and get around it. The only way to prevent cheating is to make the punishment so bad that the risk isn't worth the reward. Do like others have suggested and start with a year ban and return of all winnings for the year if someone gets caught cheating once. If they get caught a second time, lifetime ban. Get the organizations to work with each other and if someone cheats in one org, they're out for all of them. One effective means for local dissuasion of cheating is word of mouth. If someone is suspected of cheating, jump in their group with them and keep score. You'll quickly find out that you're probably correct about them cheating and their scores will look nothing like their past scores. Then, and this is the key, spread the word that "(insert name here)" is a cheater and most won't have the guts to show their face again because someone else will immediately jump into their group to keep them honest.

First and foremost, we have to police ourselves. The orgs and clubs are usually only made aware of it after the fact and by then it's often too late to prove or do anything about. But if someone in a group catches someone else cheating they need to immediately call them on it and make sure that everyone knows what the guy just tried to pull.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter

Since I shoot the Traditional classes I am often grouped with youngsters. I've never shot a national event so I cannot comment. But at state level IBO and ASA shoots I've seen over zealous parents "help out" by being the second score keeper and then argue endlessly "what's in & what's out" for the benefit of their kid and to the detriment of other kids shooting in the group. They also coach form and yardage estimation after the shot to prep “junior” for the next shot. I have never formally accused anyone of cheating, but the “grey areas” are definitely being worked. I understand not wanting to send your child off into the woods with an adult you do not know, but a lack of teaching basic sportsmanship always seems to be present. My 2 cents worth...


----------



## Kstigall

Supermag1 said:


> Just like criminals are going to break the law, cheaters are going to cheat. It might take awhile to find a way around a new rule but the cheaters will figure it out and get around it. The only way to prevent cheating is to make the punishment so bad that the risk isn't worth the reward. Do like others have suggested and start with a year ban and return of all winnings for the year if someone gets caught cheating once. If they get caught a second time, lifetime ban. Get the organizations to work with each other and if someone cheats in one org, they're out for all of them. One effective means for local dissuasion of cheating is word of mouth. If someone is suspected of cheating, jump in their group with them and keep score. You'll quickly find out that you're probably correct about them cheating and their scores will look nothing like their past scores. Then, and this is the key, spread the word that "(insert name here)" is a cheater and most won't have the guts to show their face again because someone else will immediately jump into their group to keep them honest.
> 
> First and foremost, we have to police ourselves. The orgs and clubs are usually only made aware of it after the fact and by then it's often too late to prove or do anything about. But if someone in a group catches someone else cheating they need to immediately call them on it and make sure that everyone knows what the guy just tried to pull.


I sometimes feel more people are ACCUSED of cheating than actually cheat! I don't think any one person should take it upon themselves to anonymously make accusations and to tarnish a persons name without the accused having the chance to defend himself......... If you think someone is cheating and shoot with them do NOT assume that if that person does not shoot a good score then that is evidence he is a cheater! I've had some really bad days and a few really good days. Just because I do not shoot my high score each week does not mean I occasionally cheat!

I'm certain a man "adjusted" my peep for me at a shoot last year. However, I know I can not prove that he did it so I keep my mouth shut. I am honestly hoping I do not see him do his something like this again as it will not be pretty...............


----------



## Bucks

Daniel Boone said:


> Bucks you dont feel some can use there Binos today to range? Use to think it didn't happen but more and more are saying I'm wrong and realize it getting to be a problem. How about limit the power?
> DB


i suppose there are, just like guys using pin gaps to help estimate as well. my take is only a range finder gives a very accurate distance. someone who does this stuff has to really practice cheating for it to make a difference and they are hopeless.


----------



## loujo61

I'm sure the IBO will disregard any and all of our thoughts here.


----------



## salmon killer

Bowtech11 said:


> Well quit, cheaters are going to cheat. People that want to win that bad will do everything in their power to learn new tricks. The semi pro with the rangefinding binos went out of his way to doctor them, I have seen some of my friends do it. You have to call it when it is seen, sure after awhile you will be shooting alone because you will find that 90% of the shooters break some part of the rule without thinking about it. Heck let's just not talk and have fun on the ranges, I mean if you rule out every conversation we will be robots shooting a bow. I go to have fun first, be around good friends and laugh, if I win fine if not hey I was not at work. Come on guys, life is too short to always worry what everyone else is doing


I will not quit! because if Im in the group if you didnt shoot it you wont get it! and you will give your card to the score keeper or go shoot with another group.The fellow I mentioned about in my other post will cheat at every opertunity he did it in front of 4 guys who saw him shot low on the score card and he pencil whipped us right in front of us we thought he was joking at first.


----------



## treeman65

it should be a rule once you shoot pro level that is where you stay. It is no difference than a open shooter going back to shoot novice.


----------



## RJseniorpro

I don't understand all the problems with scoring? In the senior pro class, we don't care who we shoot with in the first place. We draw cards to determine score keepers. One guy usually calls arrows while the other arrow puller is watching. If an arrow is in question, we all look and majority rules. We all know each other and bino's and stepping off targets will get you a quick warning which rarely happens. We have the upmost respect for each other and actually appreciate a good shot from our competition and let him know it. If I beat you, I want it to be on your best day, if you beat me I will be the first to congratulate you. We just need to all abide by the rules of the orgs and police our own classes we compete in. If I lose the world championship by one point it never crosses my mind about cheaters, I just look back and try to see where I failed. Enjoy the sport and just think, one day you will be 50 and can shoot with us....


----------



## salmon killer

RJseniorpro said:


> I don't understand all the problems with scoring? In the senior pro class, we don't care who we shoot with in the first place. We draw cards to determine score keepers. One guy usually calls arrows while the other arrow puller is watching. If an arrow is in question, we all look and majority rules. We all know each other and bino's and stepping off targets will get you a quick warning which rarely happens. We have the upmost respect for each other and actually appreciate a good shot from our competition and let him know it. If I beat you, I want it to be on your best day, if you beat me I will be the first to congratulate you. We just need to all abide by the rules of the orgs and police our own classes we compete in. If I lose the world championship by one point it never crosses my mind about cheaters, I just look back and try to see where I failed. Enjoy the sport and just think, one day you will be 50 and can shoot with us....


Best post ever on this subject! This is how the game is supposed to be played.And its how I roll.


----------



## bhtr3d

RJseniorpro said:


> I don't understand all the problems with scoring? In the senior pro class, we don't care who we shoot with in the first place. We draw cards to determine score keepers. One guy usually calls arrows while the other arrow puller is watching. If an arrow is in question, we all look and majority rules. We all know each other and bino's and stepping off targets will get you a quick warning which rarely happens. We have the upmost respect for each other and actually appreciate a good shot from our competition and let him know it. If I beat you, I want it to be on your best day, if you beat me I will be the first to congratulate you. We just need to all abide by the rules of the orgs and police our own classes we compete in. If I lose the world championship by one point it never crosses my mind about cheaters, I just look back and try to see where I failed. Enjoy the sport and just think, one day you will be 50 and can shoot with us....


We, have a different problem....no one wants to keep score ....we generally make it last man to the group is one of the scorers...


----------



## bhtr3d

RJseniorpro said:


> I don't understand all the problems with scoring? In the senior pro class, we don't care who we shoot with in the first place. We draw cards to determine score keepers. One guy usually calls arrows while the other arrow puller is watching. If an arrow is in question, we all look and majority rules. We all know each other and bino's and stepping off targets will get you a quick warning which rarely happens. We have the upmost respect for each other and actually appreciate a good shot from our competition and let him know it. If I beat you, I want it to be on your best day, if you beat me I will be the first to congratulate you. We just need to all abide by the rules of the orgs and police our own classes we compete in. If I lose the world championship by one point it never crosses my mind about cheaters, I just look back and try to see where I failed. Enjoy the sport and just think, one day you will be 50 and can shoot with us....


Very true there Randall. I think the more season veteran classes that pretty much everyone knows everyone and I don't see the problems....of course there is something that breaks that rule..but we not talking about that...we all moved on.


----------



## Rock Steady

I was was once told there are no stupid questions.


What is Skipping a target?


In Australia the ABA has just ruled about no phones on the ranges during shoots because some dropkicks started using range finder apps on their smart phones and possibly texting distances. The only drawback is that the only thing I have ever used my phone for is to take a photo of the kids / adults I coach when they achieve something interesting on the range so they have a lasting memory (Robin Hoods, arrows in trees, all the groups arrows in a tight bullseye group etc). I will just take a small camera now so no big issue, you can still take your phone for emergencies but your have to tell the shoot captain and get approval.

Seems to happen everywhere in life, cheaters/criminals break the rules/laws and the rest of us have to live with new rules/laws designed to prevent it even though the cheaters/criminals keep on doing it or find new ways to do it.

Michael


----------



## J Whittington

When some one is caught cheating, they should be made an example of! 
No matter who it is, regardless of what class, who sponsors them, or what they have accomplished in the past! Id love to spill the beans on regarding the "pinky swear scandal" but I cant.


----------



## Supermag1

Kstigall said:


> I sometimes feel more people are ACCUSED of cheating than actually cheat! I don't think any one person should take it upon themselves to anonymously make accusations and to tarnish a persons name without the accused having the chance to defend himself......... If you think someone is cheating and shoot with them do NOT assume that if that person does not shoot a good score then that is evidence he is a cheater! I've had some really bad days and a few really good days. Just because I do not shoot my high score each week does not mean I occasionally cheat!
> 
> I'm certain a man "adjusted" my peep for me at a shoot last year. However, I know I can not prove that he did it so I keep my mouth shut. I am honestly hoping I do not see him do his something like this again as it will not be pretty...............


But if you and the rest of your group shoots 50-70 pts lower than what you averaged over the previous 4 shoots at the same club or you somehow shoot up on a 40 target IBO scoring course after shooting 4 5s and 2 11's then it's pretty obvious that something funny is going on. BTW, both are examples happened at a couple local shoots this year.

In your case with the equipment getting vandalized, like you said it's hard to prove but maybe if you tell some people to be aware that it might be going on, it might get the person caught while doing it to again or to someone else or might save someone else's round when they check their equipment or keep an eye on it.


----------



## VAN DAM

In my few years of experience shooting ASA its seems pretty legit, sure there was the Vincent Binos thing and I've heard of a few people tell yardages that shot the same range previous days but I dont think much cheating goes on. I've never shot IBO but i would not like the idea of being able to shoot with your buddies, sounds too easy to do some pencil pushing


----------



## Daniel Boone

Rock Steady said:


> I was was once told there are no stupid questions.
> 
> 
> What is Skipping a target?
> 
> 
> In Australia the ABA has just ruled about no phones on the ranges during shoots because some dropkicks started using range finder apps on their smart phones and possibly texting distances. The only drawback is that the only thing I have ever used my phone for is to take a photo of the kids / adults I coach when they achieve something interesting on the range so they have a lasting memory (Robin Hoods, arrows in trees, all the groups arrows in a tight bullseye group etc). I will just take a small camera now so no big issue, you can still take your phone for emergencies but your have to tell the shoot captain and get approval.
> 
> Seems to happen everywhere in life, cheaters/criminals break the rules/laws and the rest of us have to live with new rules/laws designed to prevent it even though the cheaters/criminals keep on doing it or find new ways to do it.
> 
> Michael


If you got ten 3d targets all in line on one side of road or walkway. Lanes are usual 25 to 20 feet apart. You wait and walk down together there that tight. Shooting ever other target doesnt allow you to see the target in lane next to you. If your walking down the lane and see the target right by side of next target you pretty much know the distance from target you just shoot.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

Honestly the thread is suggestions of what assoc can do to avoid cheating.

Give some suggestion if you got them. If your 100% satisfiad dont give any suggestions.

DB


----------



## NCstick

There aren't any! It's competition. You get men competing, someone will find a way to cheat period. Look at NASCAR. Full of rules yet people still find ways to do it. It's the nature of competition.


----------



## VeroShooter

J Whittington said:


> When some one is caught cheating, they should be made an example of!
> No matter who it is, regardless of what class, who sponsors them, or what they have accomplished in the past! Id love to spill the beans on regarding the "pinky swear scandal" but I cant.


lol!


----------



## hrtlnd164

The rules for everything that"s illegal are already in place. What is needed is enforcement of those rules. That sometimes doesn't get done by leaving the shooters police themselves. Face it, there are alot of shooters who don't know the rules to begin with. There are also many that don't want to be "that guy" and speak up, he's there to enjoy his weekend of shooting and not be in a pissing match with the group all weekend. Why write rules and leave the enforcement out of the equation. I know it will probably never be an option but "informed" range officials on the courses is the only way to minimize the opportunities for the cheaters.JMO


----------



## ccwilder3

A complete ban on cell phones on the range. For competitors and spectators.
Groups decided by random drawing.
Two score keepers.
A range official on each range.
The score keepers give the cards to the range official. They do not give them to the competitor and trust him not to make changes before he turns it in to the range official.


----------



## Rock Steady

We have the score recorder sign the score sheet at the end of the round and the archer checks the score and countersigns it, if there are any changes they have to be initialled by both parties. Is this how it is done over there?


----------



## paul anderson

i dont like the asa team shoots it seems like the same people shot with the same people at all the asa pro am events , and its the same person that makes up the teams .
maybe its just me that thanks that way.


----------



## bowpro34

hrtlnd164 said:


> The rules for everything that"s illegal are already in place. What is needed is enforcement of those rules. That sometimes doesn't get done by leaving the shooters police themselves. Face it, there are alot of shooters who don't know the rules to begin with. There are also many that don't want to be "that guy" and speak up, he's there to enjoy his weekend of shooting and not be in a pissing match with the group all weekend. Why write rules and leave the enforcement out of the equation. I know it will probably never be an option but "informed" range officials on the courses is the only way to minimize the opportunities for the cheaters.JMO


Bingo! Well said. Enforcement of the rules is the challenge...


----------



## Garceau

paul anderson said:


> i dont like the asa team shoots it seems like the same people shot with the same people at all the asa pro am events , and its the same person that makes up the teams .
> maybe its just me that thanks that way.


Hmmm.....never noticed that.

I love the asa team shoots, if you get a good mentor in the group its a great opportunity to learn!

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## XForce Girl

Offer a large cash reward for anyone who turns in a cheater with proof.
That should be a deterrent.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Garceau

XForce Girl said:


> Offer a large cash reward for anyone who turns in a cheater with proof.
> That should be a deterrent.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


Then someone will cheat at that!

Will convince a buddy to cheat, then split the large prize. Show up next asa and do the same. 

Yeah i spend all my time around criminals

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Junebughasty

this i have seen and i have learned from it. In fla. either last year or 2 years ago can't remember but Hopkins was in the shoot down and if any of you guys ever pay attention and watch these guys as intensly as i do you would catch it too. he counted the fence post down the right side of the field to help him get a better number. very discreetly but i watched him do it and i have also seen Levi actually turn around and look at one of the other stakes when he goes into the last target shoot down with someone to help him get another number for that last target. what im getting at is even the best have figured out that there are all kinds of ways to add just a little more confidence in your yardage and that is sometimes all it takes is just a little confidence to win $10,000. is it wrong? that is a hell of a question! i think that if you don't use anything that is available you are an idiot! thats alot of money to just shoot a bow and if i ever get to the stage where im with them up there ill do the same thing!


----------



## speciii

Junebughasty said:


> this i have seen and i have learned from it. In fla. either last year or 2 years ago can't remember but Hopkins was in the shoot down and if any of you guys ever pay attention and watch these guys as intensly as i do you would catch it too. he counted the fence post down the right side of the field to help him get a better number. very discreetly but i watched him do it and i have also seen Levi actually turn around and look at one of the other stakes when he goes into the last target shoot down with someone to help him get another number for that last target. what im getting at is even the best have figured out that there are all kinds of ways to add just a little more confidence in your yardage and that is sometimes all it takes is just a little confidence to win $10,000. is it wrong? that is a hell of a question! i think that if you don't use anything that is available you are an idiot! thats alot of money to just shoot a bow and if i ever get to the stage where im with them up there ill do the same thing!


I will tell you other places that has happened. Past classics. in the shoot downs, if you know about building structures and the size of what a bay doors are, and the spacing that is used for structures... But that is not cheating as states above it's knowing how to use your surrounding


----------



## racing9557

years ago in the early 90's u could not use bio-n. this is where it went bad. until u get rid of them u will always have problems. and change 2 min rule to 1 min is what i say. u dont need that much time.


----------



## SonnyThomas

racing9557 said:


> years ago in the early 90's u could not use bio-n. this is where it went bad. until u get rid of them u will always have problems. and change 2 min rule to 1 min is what i say. u dont need that much time.


I already noted eliminating binoculars won't happen. Time limit rules are in place I believe, just not enforced; 2 minutes for first person to the stake and 1 minute for each person following in that group.
As for time limits, it's more at the National level, but of the one time I shot a national all groups were moving well and it still took 4 hours each day to complete the 20 target course.


----------



## NCstick

hrtlnd164 said:


> The rules for everything that"s illegal are already in place. What is needed is enforcement of those rules. That sometimes doesn't get done by leaving the shooters police themselves. Face it, there are alot of shooters who don't know the rules to begin with. There are also many that don't want to be "that guy" and speak up, he's there to enjoy his weekend of shooting and not be in a pissing match with the group all weekend. Why write rules and leave the enforcement out of the equation. I know it will probably never be an option but "informed" range officials on the courses is the only way to minimize the opportunities for the cheaters.JMO


The first shoot I did, I was in a group with a guy who was shooting in one of the 40yd classes. He will be shooting Pro/Am ASA this coming season. Now he knows the rules. I had read over the rules myself. First shoot, read over rules remember that. I was I was shooting a little right every shot. He asked if I had my Allen pack with me and I did. He then proceeded to tell me to adjust my sight. I did not remembering that part of the rule. I ended up placing top 3. 2nd in my class if I remember correctly. Couple weeks later I was reading over the rules again and there it was in writing. I had broken a rule and didn't know it. He broke a couple more, one included discussing yardages which I knew was breaking a rule and told him I wanted no part of it. After that he didn't speak of yardages again. I know it's our responsibility to know the rules before we shoot but, I would also think, it is our responsibility as experienced shooters to teach new shooters the rules as there are a lot to learn.


----------



## YankeeRebel

My take on cheating is this.........if caught cheating you are asked to leave,banned from that organization and are reported to other organizations. Yes it's severe punishment but if the rules are not enforced then why have the rules. 

In my opinion, if any organization is just starting out I highly recommend the format that ASA has in place. The number one thing is listen your shooters but ENFORCE THE RULES that are put in place.


----------



## LCA

NCstick said:


> The first shoot I did, I was in a group with a guy who was shooting in one of the 40yd classes. He will be shooting Pro/Am ASA this coming season. Now he knows the rules. I had read over the rules myself. First shoot, read over rules remember that. I was I was shooting a little right every shot. He asked if I had my Allen pack with me and I did. He then proceeded to tell me to adjust my sight. I did not remembering that part of the rule. I ended up placing top 3. 2nd in my class if I remember correctly. Couple weeks later I was reading over the rules again and there it was in writing. I had broken a rule and didn't know it. He broke a couple more, one included discussing yardages which I knew was breaking a rule and told him I wanted no part of it. After that he didn't speak of yardages again. I know it's our responsibility to know the rules before we shoot but, I would also think, it is our responsibility as experienced shooters to teach new shooters the rules as there are a lot to learn.


Was it a fixed pin class?

T. Competitors in “Fixed Pin” classes may make one “gang adjustment” of their sight during competition without calling a breakdown. The adjustment may be made following a shot and prior to proceeding to the next target, under the following procedure: (1) inform the group, and (2) make the adjustment to the whole pin set in front of the group. Individual pins may not be adjusted, and further adjustments must be made under Shooting Time Allowed, Rule “D”.
Known Distance & Unknown Distance Competition: The Tournament Director shall have the option to designate individual classes or ranges for Known Distance or Unknown Distance competition for either or both days.


----------



## NCstick

LCA said:


> Was it a fixed pin class?
> 
> T. Competitors in “Fixed Pin” classes may make one “gang adjustment” of their sight during competition without calling a breakdown. The adjustment may be made following a shot and prior to proceeding to the next target, under the following procedure: (1) inform the group, and (2) make the adjustment to the whole pin set in front of the group. Individual pins may not be adjusted, and further adjustments must be made under Shooting Time Allowed, Rule “D”.
> Known Distance & Unknown Distance Competition: The Tournament Director shall have the option to designate individual classes or ranges for Known Distance or Unknown Distance competition for either or both days.


Yes. It was a fixed pin. Is this ASA? I swear I read no adjustments after entering the course.


----------



## mathews-4-life

Like most of you have already stated...... no need to make new rules to enforce the rules already in place.....and to the gentleman who stated that hopkins used to count fence post to judge the target and so forth.....My question to you is how do you judge targets on the range.....i don't think anyware in the rules it states that you cant use natural surroundings to help judge a target... i will use every natural stick, patch of grass, limb laying on the ground to help me judge a target.... and one last thing make sure you are 100% accurate if you plan to call someone out for cheating, raise your voice to be heard!!!


----------



## LCA

NCstick said:


> Yes. It was a fixed pin. Is this ASA? I swear I read no adjustments after entering the course.


Yep, that is straight from the ASA rule book.


----------



## bhtr3d

NCstick said:


> Yes. It was a fixed pin. Is this ASA? I swear I read no adjustments after entering the course.


Sorry to inform you but it.says so in the first.sentence......gang adjustment that is while on the course


----------



## huntelk

Range officials must have the ability and willingness to get involved and ensure the rules are followed. In the case of only one shooter in a group having the honor and willingness to stand up to a cheater in a group that is cowering to or allowing cheating, that shooter needs officials on-hand to have his back.

From my experience there are times when the "majority" rule gets abused by strong-minded agressive "experienced" ASA competitors pushing until they get their way. In a group of 4 people all he needs is one guy that looks down and backs out being afraid of confrontation and one that thinks the favor may be repaid on a target down the line. With the current rules, one honorable shooter in a group is helpless.


----------



## huntelk

And I would agree with those voting to not allow cell phones to be taken out of your shooter chair. They must be "off" after the shotgun start, just like during take-off in a plane. If you take it out of the bag or it rings after the start you get a zero on the last target you shot. Arrangements for "emergencies" or "lifelines" must be made for you to not have your phone on during shooting hours...period.


----------



## 94insideout

salmon killer said:


> I shot with a young fellow in a group last year and we have a desingnated score keeper ( club shoot) and we have been shooting 3d for 25 years and this young man said he would keep his own score thats fine. We shoot 40 targets and are setting down having a soda going over the scores and we ask the score keeper or score here read them out.And we ask the young man in our group what he shot and he told us his score and it was 20 points above everyone and my son looked at him and said but you shot three fives.No on could belive it he turned in his score card won a throphy my son was told by a range officer just to let it pass.


i lived in washington a couple of years, shot indoors with some guys, they did not fare to well.....shot 3d with them and got pencil whipped by 40 points....competitive 3d is suspect i think, which is too bad...shot northwest shoot up, very well run, high quality competition and integrity, but not 3D.


----------



## reylamb

J Whittington said:


> When some one is caught cheating, they should be made an example of!
> No matter who it is, regardless of what class, who sponsors them, or what they have accomplished in the past! Id love to spill the beans on regarding the "pinky swear scandal" but I cant.


Are you sure? Surely it is ok to re-shoot an arrow after someone accidentally shot the wrong target....as long as there is a pinky swear involved and all!!!!!! I think it is in the secret rules somewhere!!!!

---------
On a side note, eliminate cell phones and I will not be able to shoot. I am on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year....even when I am on vacation. With 7 TV stations now in my engineering territory, I have to keep them running 24x7, no questions asked. What I can do these days on a cell phone with TV stations is nothing short of a lifesaver for me, and a money saver for the stations. I can turn on or off about 34 TV stations in the country with my phone, and reset countless other pieces of equipment from almost anywhere, again, with the phone. I have to have my phone, or I simply can't shoot.

What about parents that have youngsters shooting at the same time? Shouldn't they have phones with them, just in case there is a problem with their child that may be on another range?

Simply saying no phones is not the answer, anymore that Feinstein saying no more "assault" weapons is the answer.

Yes, the usage of the phones must be policed, just like every other rule out there.
--------
One rule I want to see change? I want the see the protest fee modified. If someone wants to file a protest it should cost them nothing. If they loose that protest they should then be required to pay the $50. I firmly believe that $50 does keep some folks from filing official protests when they see blatant cheating going on.


----------



## mod10g

As someone that shoots for the enjoyment of the sport I don't get to caught up in seeing someone make a random text or small maybe not knowingly break a rule, but I hate it when someone deliberately cheats to win. Now, I will say that someone taking every advantage they can within the rules is just playing to win, some folks may not like or agree with it but if you are serious about winning than it's seem fair to count stakes or post whatever, and the bino rules say no rangefinding or markings made to binos, if someone has taken the time to learn their binos so well they can judge yardage with the focus that's ok with me, because I can do the same if I choose. Unless the rules say no than it's legal until it's changed.


----------



## reylamb

mod10g said:


> As someone that shoots for the enjoyment of the sport I don't get to caught up in seeing someone make a random text or small maybe not knowingly break a rule, but I hate it when someone deliberately cheats to win. Now, I will say that someone taking every advantage they can within the rules is just playing to win, some folks may not like or agree with it but if you are serious about winning than it's seem fair to count stakes or post whatever, and the bino rules say no rangefinding or markings made to binos, if someone has taken the time to learn their binos so well they can judge yardage with the focus that's ok with me, because I can do the same if I choose. Unless the rules say no than it's legal until it's changed.


But ASA rules state that yardage judging must be done with the eyes, no outside devices, no pacing, etc.etc.etc....


----------



## CMA121885

I'm also on call for my job. Just like the poster above I'm on call 24/7 365 days a year. I don't get called out much though, if only worked 16 days in the last 4 months. 

I don't have to be available all the time. But I am required to answer the phone and let them know if I can make it where ever they need me. Just part of a salary job. So if I can't have my phone I cant shoot.

On a side note, the cheating that goes on in these shoots will continue unless someone enforces the rules and make a severe consequence. In ASA bow hunter I saw lots of side bars that were behind 8-10" behind the deepest part of the grip. So if its illegal equipment then its cheating. 

Another thing that I feel is cheating is people that should be shooting a different class than they are in. For example the ASA novice scores are most of the time better than hunter. I know its less yardage and known but if you can shoot well enough to hit that many 12s at 20-30 yards you need to be in a different class.


----------



## mod10g

reylamb said:


> But ASA rules state that yardage judging must be done with the eyes, no outside devices, no pacing, etc.etc.etc....


Correct, counting post, sticks, trees, whatever is done with the eyes. If binos are legal, and you can tell with your eyes change in the focus and determine yardage than I say it's legal. Pacing the targets can be controlled by the organizations, they can set the targets farther apart or skip every other target. If you put them side by side people are going to look and make some kind of yardage note in there mind. I shot K45 for the past several years so it hasn't been a big deal for me if I change classes this year I may feel different about it at the end of the year but for now I think ASA needs to look at arranging the stake a little different.


----------



## mod10g

The only other thing I might change is the bow novice class, let face it there not to many novice shooting national tournaments, do away with the novice class, and maybe have an advanced, elite or maybe known hunter class. Make the move up list a little longer or have a flighted season somehow. Maybe top ten in each class at each shoot get put in a championship flight for the year and would start in the championship flight next year, anyone that finishes inthe top five nationally in the (B) flight get bumped to the championship flight next year if you don't finish in the top 20 you can drop back to the B flight. Something like this, it may not workout but it would give some of the guys in the middle of the pace something to shoot for, try to get into the (A) flights and if you happen to win the (B) You get into the (a) and the guy's behind you have a shot at it next year. BUT now we are going to have sand bagging and may cause even bigger problems.


----------



## XForce Girl

The only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Ray Ray

XForce Girl said:


> The only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


This is how it is done at the YHEC shoots. We have 2 score keepers at each target to score. You still have some trying to cheat, bit it is pretty difficult to do.


----------



## SonnyThomas

reylamb said:


> Are you sure? Surely it is ok to re-shoot an arrow after someone accidentally shot the wrong target....as long as there is a pinky swear involved and all!!!!!! I think it is in the secret rules somewhere!!!!
> 
> ---------
> On a side note, eliminate cell phones and I will not be able to shoot. I am on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year....even when I am on vacation. With 7 TV stations now in my engineering territory, I have to keep them running 24x7, no questions asked. What I can do these days on a cell phone with TV stations is nothing short of a lifesaver for me, and a money saver for the stations. I can turn on or off about 34 TV stations in the country with my phone, and reset countless other pieces of equipment from almost anywhere, again, with the phone. I have to have my phone, or I simply can't shoot.
> 
> What about parents that have youngsters shooting at the same time? Shouldn't they have phones with them, just in case there is a problem with their child that may be on another range?
> 
> Simply saying no phones is not the answer, anymore that Feinstein saying no more "assault" weapons is the answer.
> 
> Yes, the usage of the phones must be policed, just like every other rule out there.
> --------
> One rule I want to see change? I want the see the protest fee modified. If someone wants to file a protest it should cost them nothing. If they loose that protest they should then be required to pay the $50. I firmly believe that $50 does keep some folks from filing official protests when they see blatant cheating going on.


If you're at the stake and shoot the wrong target you'll get a big zero, period.

The way I understand it cell phones to be turned off or at least the ringer.

Don't know exactly, but I think if proven right protest fees are returned. And it isn't just in archery that this protest fee exists and depending upon the protest the fee is higher and compounded depending upon the tear down - drag racing, stock cars.... Fuel, compression test, cubic inch, etc....


----------



## victor001

XForce Girl said:


> The only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


Now there's a smart lady .


----------



## 48archer

XForce Girl said:


> The only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


I have said the same thing for years except where will the judge be standing as each group shoots thru, i would hate to be the judge that is scoring a 50 yard target and have to walk back and forth from stake to target as each group of shooters comes thru.


----------



## dcaudle1

If the man-power is available, it would be nice to have a range official at every target to monitor/enforce the rules as well as do all of the scoring. I believe this would go a long way and really level the playing field.


----------



## NateUK

There have been a lot of good ideas mentioned, along with some bad ones. But reality is that we are probably lucky to have one official on each range at an ASA shoot. People need to be happy with what we do have. Should we try to improve 3d archery? Absolutely! The best way to do that is to know the rules if you are going to shoot in the event, and if you see someone cheating, speak up and call them out. We as shooters must police ourselves and the people in our group. I know that's hard to control in IBO when friends have the ability to shoot together, but ASA puts on a hell of a competition...it's up to the shooters to regulate it!


----------



## jbeasleyshoot

I have been accused of cheating in the past and that is why I always made a point to shoot for fun at local events or shoot with the accuser at the next shoot. National events must have changed a lot in the past few years since I shot one because we were so competitive that no one was getting away with anything and groups were always split up which is the way I liked it. The way I look at it is if I think someone is cheating I try to shoot with them and if they dont want to shoot with you that pretty much lets you know they have something to hide. People will cheat if they have the heart to do so. Randomly drawn groups with two score keepers and shotgun starts are about the only way we can curb problems and leave your dang phone in the truck.


----------



## tmorelli

Just make the shoots all a "redding" type format.

Don't like phones because of sharing yardage?.... make it all Known distance.

Don't like binos because of ranging issues?..... put a big dot on the target.

Don't like "fuzzy" line calling?........ put a big dot on the target.

Don't like being pencil whipped?....... shotgun start. Random group assignments. 2 score keepers.

Seriously, you know what is going to kill 3d?....... the targets and the unknown distances. That's already what keeps it from growing.... It's become a rich man's sport. You've now got to own ranges of two brands of targets that are constantly changing.......and have the time and place to practice with them to be competitive on a national level. Make it like Redding and it doesn't matter what brand the target is.


----------



## 3-D Quest

Daniel, 

Seeking input on this subject is always like opening a full can of worms. Great post by Tmorelli and some others...some really sad post by some of the others. I personally think there are enough rules!

The best post yet was offered by RJseniorpro. I took the opportunity to shoot Sr Pro last year at the Classic, and I have to agree with everything he said. I've never shot with a better bunch of shooters...I think I'll just continue shooting with them on the ASA circuit when I have the oppportunity to go. 

Used to be, your name was worth protecting, a man could look you in the eyes and give you his word and we trusted one another. The further we get from that, the more rules we need.

Wayne


----------



## Padgett

I shot every asa shoot except for florida last year and every group I shot with was awesome, I only knew these guys for a couple days but they made my first year of shooting asa shoots a memorable year and I am going to try and go to every one of them this year and get at least one podium in open a. I shot with or next to the winners of open b and open a and those guys were on fire and earned every point on their score cards and watching some of the teenagers kick some serious butt in their first year of open a was a treat. 

I personally love cheaters because putting up scores that beat them week after week has got to tick them off, my favorite thing is to find a guy or group that shoots pretty high scores and get into their group and show them what a real score looks like. I find that handing them my score card and letting them write down all the 12's sucks the cheat right out of them and reminding them that getting 4 5's wont hurt their score that bad tells them you are paying attention to how bad they are shooting.


----------



## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> If you're at the stake and shoot the wrong target you'll get a big zero, period.
> 
> The way I understand it cell phones to be turned off or at least the ringer.
> 
> Don't know exactly, but I think if proven right protest fees are returned. And it isn't just in archery that this protest fee exists and depending upon the protest the fee is higher and compounded depending upon the tear down - drag racing, stock cars.... Fuel, compression test, cubic inch, etc....


As long as there is a pinky swear the arrow can be reshot......or so I hear.

My phone always stays on vibrate, but it is one of those things, no phone no go for me.

I do think the fees are returned, but I would still like to see being able to file the protest without paying first. It does discourage some folks from actually filing the protest in the first place.


----------



## bhtr3d

reylamb said:


> As long as there is a pinky swear the arrow can be reshot......or so I hear.
> 
> My phone always stays on vibrate, but it is one of those things, no phone no go for me.
> 
> I do think the fees are returned, but I would still like to see being able to file the protest without paying first. It does discourage some folks from actually filing the protest in the first place.



If you make a protest....and you are in the right you do get your money back...if your found wrong in your protest....then you don't...


----------



## Daniel Boone

bhtr3d said:


> If you make a protest....and you are in the right you do get your money back...if your found wrong in your protest....then you don't...


So if the one in question are found guilty but allowed to finish and rules over looked.

Would the person get a refund? I wish it was this black and white!
DB


----------



## darton3d

There is no realistic way to solve the cheating that goes on. The morals and ethics of our society have degraded to appalling levels. The only thing that matters to many is "ME". To many feel they are entitled to something they have not earned. People cheat to feed their ego, winning is all that matters. Most don't want to deal with the conflict that comes from identifying cheaters, including the officials who are there to enforce the rules. Equipment violations are easy to spot and enforce, but what about other "gray" areas of the rules. Can you prove without question that someone is pacing off the yardages, or using their binoculars to judge yardage? If you're shooting in a fixed pin class, how do you know someone isn't using their pin gap to judge yardage? What happens if you are sure someone is cheating and you accuse them of such, but the officials decide they don't want to enforce the rules? Where does that leave the accuser? Tony M. made some very good points on how to eliminate the opportunity to cheat, but to many, being told the distance and given a dot to aim at is not 3D shooting, it is a field course. I have no idea what the answer is, but better enforcement of the current rules would be a start. Expecting more from our fellow shooters and calling out cheaters is something we must all do. But it is not easy to get others to confront cheaters, I know this from personal experience.


----------



## bhtr3d

Daniel Boone said:


> So if the one in question are found guilty but allowed to finish and rules over looked.
> 
> Would the person get a refund? I wish it was this black and white!
> DB


The protest is filed ...the shooter committee then takes the protest and goes over the item(s) in the protest and give.there verdict. All of the protests I was ever involved in was done after the event was done, and we made our ruling . So, yes they all were able to finish...but not all had there scores recorded..


----------



## SonnyThomas

reylamb said:


> As long as there is a pinky swear the arrow can be reshot......or so I hear.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Don't shoot in my group. You won't like a zero.... Yes, I heard when a person says they are letting down to the group and there is a accidental firing, usually in the ground, there is the possibility of shooting the arrow over (I have never had the issue), but there was never a target in question. Someone shoots a wrong target, it's a zero.


----------



## tmorelli

The one that gets me is the idea of getting rid of binoculars altogether. I seriously doubt that anyone who is currently competitive in the game would advocate that.

3d is already very much about eye sight. Ever notice the average age where 3d shooters reach peak? Ever compare it to the average age where field and fita shooters seem to peak?..... it's eyesight related.

Take away binoculars and you might as well have these tournaments at the optometrist's offices. There would be no reason to bring your bows or ever shoot an arrow.

IMO, There will always be a few cheaters. The current 3d format is ripe for it and I was tongue-in-cheek but somewhat serious in my post above. The way to get rid of yardage related issues....... make it all known. Want to get rid of (or at least narrow) the fuzzy line calls? bust groups/shotgun start and/or make it a dot. The rest of the issues are pretty easily addressed by all (except IBO for some reason). I personally believe attendance would sky rocket. Yardage judging is a dying art.... for economic reasons and due to the widespread use and availability of range finders for bowhunters. Good judging is handy but it isn't a necessary skill to be a successful bowhunter anymore.


----------



## rhyno_071

XForce Girl said:


> The only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


Pretty much this. But they need to actually watch each shooter at the stake to enforce all pre shot rules too.


----------



## Bearlee

rhyno_071 said:


> Pretty much this. But they need to actually watch each shooter at the stake to enforce all pre shot rules too.


20 target course, needs 20 officials, one for each target. This is what the pros and semi pros signed up for, to help archery. The pros and semi pros shoot morning, and "amateurs" score, then when amateurs classes shoot the pros, semi pros score. (this also is a way for members to see others shoot and grow the sport)

Each shooter is required to have his/her full name on their arrow as it appears on their score card.

Two score card holders are assigned the responsibility of transporting the cards for the group and presenting them to the "target official" at each stake. 

The group walks up to the target after the previous group has left and presents the "target official" with the groups cards. 

As the shooters step up to the stake they tell the "target official" their name and present their arrow with name to the "target official" for inspection.

Now each "target official", pro semi-pro, whomever is on that target watches the shooter shoot, then goes to the target to score the shots while watching each shooter.

Then the "target official" can look at the named arrow, and the "target official" marks the score on the card in a colored pen.

Then the group walks back to the stake while watched by the "target official".

If the "target official" at any time observes a distinct violation then he places an X over the score on that shooter's card and records the name and rule violation in a "target NUMBERXX official's notebook". That way at the end of the shoot the violations can be adjudged by tournament officials. Some violations my be dismissed or upheld at their discretion. But the score would be known. If several "target officials" note a violation such as stepping or looking at the next lane, corrective measures can be taken.

At the end of the tournament the "Score card Holders" are the people responsible for tallying the scores and writing them down. 
In a separate box on the score card the shooter tallys the score and confirms the total. The score is written down as if there were no violations. Violations are determined by tournament officials later and reflected by an adjusted final score.

You will have a "target official" and a group that has been selected at random by the tournament officials and the tournament officials to decide the fate of the potential violation. A protest can be made by any shooter at the stake to the "target official" where the violation has a better chance to be proven. After the end of the tournament there will be a 1 hour time period to file a protest after the group leaves the last stake, which time will be written on the card by the last target official. The cost of a protest is due at the end of the tournament and should be about $20, (a fee easily handled by anyone and not likely to be a deterent nor a instigation) fees will only be returned if the violation is upheld by tournament officials. Should the fee not be paid by the end of the hour, the protester is disqualified.

This is the completely fair way to encourage sportsmanship and friendship amongst all ranks and allow every member to know one another. When you sign up for the association, you will be aware that it is your duty to help other archers by not just shooting but giving your time to others as well.

Perhaps there are other ways to enhance this, but all national shoots that involve money should adhere to this or a similar policy.


----------



## tmorelli

Wow.


----------



## Bearlee

A sample score card could look similar to this









After each stake the target official writes his name on the score card
if a violation is Xed then he writes it in his notepad with the number and describes the violation with the occurrence.
These notepads will be looked at later by the tourney officials

Almost everyone could be given a violation it seems. However it would take several or so upheld to become DQed from the event.?
After several events, if the same thing were observed, it could be addressed and then bans set forth.

Remember, we are not here to keep people from participating. Just to enjoy and let the best win, without fear of those not shooting their best on that day pencil whipping them. I despise a cheater and this is a way to deter and handle it. the enforcement needs improving but this is a solid concept upon which to build..


----------



## ebonarcher

Bowtech11 said:


> Well quit, cheaters are going to cheat. People that want to win that bad will do everything in their power to learn new tricks. The semi pro with the rangefinding binos went out of his way to doctor them, I have seen some of my friends do it. You have to call it when it is seen, sure after awhile you will be shooting alone because you will find that 90% of the shooters break some part of the rule without thinking about it. Heck let's just not talk and have fun on the ranges, I mean if you rule out every conversation we will be robots shooting a bow. I go to have fun first, be around good friends and laugh, if I win fine if not hey I was not at work. Come on guys, life is too short to always worry what everyone else is doing



I really wonder how good your friends are if they a know cheaters ?


----------



## SonnyThomas

Bearlee said:


> 20 target course, needs 20 officials, one for each target. This is what the pros and semi pros signed up for, to help archery. The pros and semi pros shoot morning, and "amateurs" score, then when amateurs classes shoot the pros, semi pros score. (this also is a way for members to see others shoot and grow the sport)
> 
> Each shooter is required to have his/her full name on their arrow as it appears on their score card.
> 
> Two score card holders are assigned the responsibility of transporting the cards for the group and presenting them to the "target official" at each stake.
> 
> The group walks up to the target after the previous group has left and presents the "target official" with the groups cards.
> 
> As the shooters step up to the stake they tell the "target official" their name and present their arrow with name to the "target official" for inspection.
> 
> Now each "target official", pro semi-pro, whomever is on that target watches the shooter shoot, then goes to the target to score the shots while watching each shooter.
> 
> Then the "target official" can look at the named arrow, and the "target official" marks the score on the card in a colored pen.
> 
> Then the group walks back to the stake while watched by the "target official".
> 
> If the "target official" at any time observes a distinct violation then he places an X over the score on that shooter's card and records the name and rule violation in a "target NUMBERXX official's notebook". That way at the end of the shoot the violations can be adjudged by tournament officials. Some violations my be dismissed or upheld at their discretion. But the score would be known. If several "target officials" note a violation such as stepping or looking at the next lane, corrective measures can be taken.
> 
> At the end of the tournament the "Score card Holders" are the people responsible for tallying the scores and writing them down.
> In a separate box on the score card the shooter tallys the score and confirms the total. The score is written down as if there were no violations. Violations are determined by tournament officials later and reflected by an adjusted final score.
> 
> You will have a "target official" and a group that has been selected at random by the tournament officials and the tournament officials to decide the fate of the potential violation. A protest can be made by any shooter at the stake to the "target official" where the violation has a better chance to be proven. After the end of the tournament there will be a 1 hour time period to file a protest after the group leaves the last stake, which time will be written on the card by the last target official. The cost of a protest is due at the end of the tournament and should be about $20, (a fee easily handled by anyone and not likely to be a deterent nor a instigation) fees will only be returned if the violation is upheld by tournament officials. Should the fee not be paid by the end of the hour, the protester is disqualified.
> 
> This is the completely fair way to encourage sportsmanship and friendship amongst all ranks and allow every member to know one another. When you sign up for the association, you will be aware that it is your duty to help other archers by not just shooting but giving your time to others as well.
> 
> Perhaps there are other ways to enhance this, but all national shoots that involve money should adhere to this or a similar policy.





Bearlee said:


> A sample score card could look similar to this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After each stake the target official writes his name on the score card
> if a violation is Xed then he writes it in his notepad with the number and describes the violation with the occurrence.
> These notepads will be looked at later by the tourney officials
> 
> Almost everyone could be given a violation it seems. However it would take several or so upheld to become DQed from the event.?
> After several events, if the same thing were observed, it could be addressed and then bans set forth.
> 
> Remember, we are not here to keep people from participating. Just to enjoy and let the best win, without fear of those not shooting their best on that day pencil whipping them. I despise a cheater and this is a way to deter and handle it. the enforcement needs improving but this is a solid concept upon which to build..


Throw the above at me and I won't even sign up. I think I said it in so many words, the subject of cheating being discussed gets over blown and doesn't help one dang bit......


----------



## bhtr3d

Bearlee said:


> A sample score card could look similar to this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After each stake the target official writes his name on the score card
> if a violation is Xed then he writes it in his notepad with the number and describes the violation with the occurrence.
> These notepads will be looked at later by the tourney officials
> 
> Almost everyone could be given a violation it seems. However it would take several or so upheld to become DQed from the event.?
> After several events, if the same thing were observed, it could be addressed and then bans set forth.
> 
> Remember, we are not here to keep people from participating. Just to enjoy and let the best win, without fear of those not shooting their best on that day pencil whipping them. I despise a cheater and this is a way to deter and handle it. the enforcement needs improving but this is a solid concept upon which to build..


Don't take this wrong.....looks good for a small shoot....but too much time and wasted energy on a larger national level shoot...nice concept though


----------



## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> The one that gets me is the idea of getting rid of binoculars altogether. I seriously doubt that anyone who is currently competitive in the game would advocate that.
> 
> 3d is already very much about eye sight. Ever notice the average age where 3d shooters reach peak? Ever compare it to the average age where field and fita shooters seem to peak?..... it's eyesight related.
> 
> Take away binoculars and you might as well have these tournaments at the optometrist's offices. There would be no reason to bring your bows or ever shoot an arrow.
> 
> IMO, There will always be a few cheaters. The current 3d format is ripe for it and I was tongue-in-cheek but somewhat serious in my post above. The way to get rid of yardage related issues....... make it all known. Want to get rid of (or at least narrow) the fuzzy line calls? bust groups/shotgun start and/or make it a dot. The rest of the issues are pretty easily addressed by all (except IBO for some reason). I personally believe attendance would sky rocket. Yardage judging is a dying art.... for economic reasons and due to the widespread use and availability of range finders for bowhunters. Good judging is handy but it isn't a necessary skill to be a successful bowhunter anymore.


Then understand they fact some know how to use them as rangefinder and are using them. I was diffidently enlighten that is being done Regulurly and your kidding yourself if you think it cant be done. I honestly didn't think it could be done and argue it for years.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

3-D Quest said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Seeking input on this subject is always like opening a full can of worms. Great post by Tmorelli and some others...some really sad post by some of the others. I personally think there are enough rules!
> 
> The best post yet was offered by RJseniorpro. I took the opportunity to shoot Sr Pro last year at the Classic, and I have to agree with everything he said. I've never shot with a better bunch of shooters...I think I'll just continue shooting with them on the ASA circuit when I have the oppportunity to go.
> 
> Used to be, your name was worth protecting, a man could look you in the eyes and give you his word and we trusted one another. The further we get from that, the more rules we need.
> 
> Wayne


I think anyone who shot this sport long enough realizes it happens and maybe has witnessed it. I would just like to see for the future of sport improve it. Years ago there was range finding contest and I realized how good these guys judge. Bobby Ketcher and George Dixon usual won those ever time being within a yard on 10 targets without Binos. My thoughts if pros realize it can be done with Binos then someone needs to speak up and time to get it solved if possible. Always room from improvement. Always going to be those who will try and cheat and sometimes they get caught. 
DB
DB


----------



## 3dbowtechman

Just enforce the rules already in place.Its not only archery but our entire country.We make new rules and laws but never enforce the ones already in place.


----------



## reylamb

Bearlee said:


> 20 target course, needs 20 officials, one for each target. This is what the pros and semi pros signed up for, to help archery. The pros and semi pros shoot morning, and "amateurs" score, then when amateurs classes shoot the pros, semi pros score. (this also is a way for members to see others shoot and grow the sport)
> 
> Each shooter is required to have his/her full name on their arrow as it appears on their score card.
> 
> Two score card holders are assigned the responsibility of transporting the cards for the group and presenting them to the "target official" at each stake.
> 
> The group walks up to the target after the previous group has left and presents the "target official" with the groups cards.
> 
> As the shooters step up to the stake they tell the "target official" their name and present their arrow with name to the "target official" for inspection.
> 
> Now each "target official", pro semi-pro, whomever is on that target watches the shooter shoot, then goes to the target to score the shots while watching each shooter.
> 
> Then the "target official" can look at the named arrow, and the "target official" marks the score on the card in a colored pen.
> 
> Then the group walks back to the stake while watched by the "target official".
> 
> If the "target official" at any time observes a distinct violation then he places an X over the score on that shooter's card and records the name and rule violation in a "target NUMBERXX official's notebook". That way at the end of the shoot the violations can be adjudged by tournament officials. Some violations my be dismissed or upheld at their discretion. But the score would be known. If several "target officials" note a violation such as stepping or looking at the next lane, corrective measures can be taken.
> 
> At the end of the tournament the "Score card Holders" are the people responsible for tallying the scores and writing them down.
> In a separate box on the score card the shooter tallys the score and confirms the total. The score is written down as if there were no violations. Violations are determined by tournament officials later and reflected by an adjusted final score.
> 
> You will have a "target official" and a group that has been selected at random by the tournament officials and the tournament officials to decide the fate of the potential violation. A protest can be made by any shooter at the stake to the "target official" where the violation has a better chance to be proven. After the end of the tournament there will be a 1 hour time period to file a protest after the group leaves the last stake, which time will be written on the card by the last target official. The cost of a protest is due at the end of the tournament and should be about $20, (a fee easily handled by anyone and not likely to be a deterent nor a instigation) fees will only be returned if the violation is upheld by tournament officials. Should the fee not be paid by the end of the hour, the protester is disqualified.
> 
> This is the completely fair way to encourage sportsmanship and friendship amongst all ranks and allow every member to know one another. When you sign up for the association, you will be aware that it is your duty to help other archers by not just shooting but giving your time to others as well.
> 
> Perhaps there are other ways to enhance this, but all national shoots that involve money should adhere to this or a similar policy.


Holy long days on the range batman........that would be an instant 6+ hour round....for 20 targets.


----------



## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> Don't shoot in my group. You won't like a zero.... Yes, I heard when a person says they are letting down to the group and there is a accidental firing, usually in the ground, there is the possibility of shooting the arrow over (I have never had the issue), but there was never a target in question. Someone shoots a wrong target, it's a zero.


Oh, you and me both. But what happens when the entire group literally agrees to do just that with a pinky swear? Dead serious, they actual made a pinky swear.

It wasn't a group of new shooters either.....you may even be suprised who was in the group....and we will just leave it at that.


----------



## tmorelli

Daniel Boone said:


> Then understand they fact some know how to use them as rangefinder and are using them. I was diffidently enlighten that is being done Regulurly and your kidding yourself if you think it cant be done. I honestly didn't think it could be done and argue it for years.
> DB


I do understand that. It's been being done as long as I've been playing the game.

I can't say that I've tried it but thats primarily because I don't believe it's accurate enough to be a real advantage. Heck, I have a set of $2500 Leica Geovid's with a laser built in that I can absolutely outshoot....... and often out judge (and I shoot Known yardage)... The LASER will blow targets by 2 yards fairly regularly. What you are talking about.....just using the focus knob or reference marks can't be any more accurate that the other common gapping techniques and definitely not as accurate as geometric judging techniques. The bino thing might keep a guy from blowing a target by 4 yards but it won't keep him within <1 yard. 

I know of a good pro who was tracked during several rounds against a tape measure. From memory, he averaged being within .6 yards of the tape and only blew 1-2 targets out of 100+ by more than 1 yard. (my leica's aren't near that good...... the Leupold 1000 TBI that I do compete with is only barely that good). 

You already know my answer for it though..... make the game all known yardage


----------



## Joseph McCluske

We already have rules, we just need to police our own ranks and things will get better. If your obsessed with cheating at any sport quit, stay home and play sloitaire, goes back to the old saying accept the things in life you cant change. If someone beats me by cheating there's nothing I can do to change that, i'll go home try to get better and be as good as I can be the next time out. If you want to go from good to great put your efforts into getting better and you'll be surprised even cheaters won't be able to keep up with you. Do you think Levi cares if someone else calls an arrow as pulling the line versus touching the line? I think he puts his arrow in the center and lets others worry about catching him. Spend more time shooting your bow and less time trying to create a perfect world and your scores will improve. They won't get better trying to re-invent the wheel with your typewriter. Just like our government trying to create a new law for guns, if 110 laws didn't stop sick people from killing innocent people how is 111.


----------



## field14

tmorelli said:


> I do understand that. It's been being done as long as I've been playing the game.
> 
> I can't say that I've tried it but thats primarily because I don't believe it's accurate enough to be a real advantage. Heck, I have a set of $2500 Leica Geovid's with a laser built in that I can absolutely outshoot....... and often out judge (and I shoot Known yardage)... The LASER will blow targets by 2 yards fairly regularly. What you are talking about.....just using the focus knob or reference marks can't be any more accurate that the other common gapping techniques and definitely not as accurate as geometric judging techniques. The bino thing might keep a guy from blowing a target by 4 yards but it won't keep him within <1 yard.
> 
> I _know of a good pro who was tracked during several rounds against a tape measure. From memory, he averaged being within .6 yards of the tape and only blew 1-2 targets out of 100+ by more than 1 yard._ (my leica's aren't near that good...... the Leupold 1000 TBI that I do compete with is only barely that good).
> 
> You already know my answer for it though..... make the game all known yardage


Do you think for a second that the "pros" are going out there, after paying the entry fee to "guess" yardage? They aren't "guessing"...they KNOW the yardage. Most have purchased the test to study, and practice the test religiously, memorizing every nook and cranny on those targets, along with properly learning their system and their equipment to the n-th degree, and that also means their scope, bubble, peep, and binoculars to the nth degree.
If you don't believe that the top guns KNOW their yardages (they blow a shot now and again, but is is "mis-judging" or is it just a "bad shot"; I tend to think the latter most of the time (for them, not for me, haha). Would you go over to a person's house to play for big money on THEIR pool table? Same difference. Short course, long course, and all sorts of other things. Kirk Ethridge exposed a lot of this myth many years ago and was chastised and threatened for what he revealed. That information still holds true today.
You gotta KNOW, you gotta have confidence in what you KNOW, and you gotta practice learning your system, yourself, and your equipment...all of which is LEGAL...but if you don't study and prepare...then just write the check and hand it over to those that do, cuz they'll knock you on your can every single time, ha.
Cheating in 3-D has been there all along...some years worse than others; some areas worse than others, but it is at its worst at LOCAL events. I've even seen people have the gall to turn in scores OVER perfect, because they weren't paying attention to what the scoring system in place for that event was! Can't fix stupid, hahaha.

I've often said that the 3-D orgs should just tell the shooters that any 20 targets can appear on any range at any shoot at any time...and in any order, so be prepared. Watch the scores change quite a bit? Probably, but I'd also be inclined to believe you wouldn't see much of a change in the leaderboard either. Those guys are THAT good at their trade.
Bothers me in that "some" will say they are better than a laser rangefinder at "judging" yardage...but in spite of this knowledge...they will fight tooth an nail against rangefinders...even tho they supposedly still have an advantage? Uh-HUH...sure...

Concerning a range finder being 2 yards off? Not likely..unless you believe ONE sighting! I NEVER take just one sighting with a rangefinder; always use THREE and toss the ringer, sometimes as many as 5. I'll also move forward and/or back a foot or so to take another reading. NEVER trust ONE reading on any instrument. If the batteries are old...then I use 5 readings...or...I change batteries. Cannot depend upon technology if you mis-use it or don't understand basic rules for instrumentation.

IN red above...let's give 'em the "same test", but with UNKNOWN targets of different brands and types than they've memorized and let's see what happens with that! Guarantee you that the human eye is NOT "programmed" for that accurate of "judging distance" much beyond about 20-30 yards, if that. Toss in a few oddities and things go to heck in a hay-basket. Now, if a person has the "test" memorized cuz it is the same 20 targets time in and time out...then "Maybe"...but not likely they'll out do a tape measure or laser rangefinder...I don't buy that, never will...not for UNKNOWN things they haven't seen hundreds of times before. He who studies the best and prepares the best, if he/she makes the shots the best, will finish at the top or nearly so; plain and simple.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## tmorelli

Field, 

You're preaching to the wrong choir on all of the above.

I currently shoot ASA known yardage and do fairly well at it. You think I don't know my rangefinders or how to use them? Color, lighting, angles..... all effect the readings. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## mhill

the field of archers should be randomized, this way the strangers can keep each other honest. 

or have an official scorer at each target and each official can then submit the scores and then tally them up according to shooter number then announce the results and then return the score cards to the shooter.


----------



## field14

tmorelli said:


> Field,
> 
> You're preaching to the wrong choir on all of the above.
> 
> I currently shoot ASA known yardage and do fairly well at it. You think I don't know my rangefinders or how to use them? Color, lighting, angles..... all effect the readings.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Exactly why I never trust "one" reading on any electronic instrument or any measuring tool, for that matter. 3 or more, toss the "ringer". Keep batteries fresh, which you probably know; but many may not even realize. Many also don't even give it a thought about taking more than one reading either. You'd be surprised that what may be obvious to some, others are oblivious to it.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## nochance

Joseph McCluske said:


> We already have rules, we just need to police our own ranks and things will get better. If your obsessed with cheating at any sport quit, stay home and play sloitaire, goes back to the old saying accept the things in life you cant change. If someone beats me by cheating there's nothing I can do to change that, i'll go home try to get better and be as good as I can be the next time out. If you want to go from good to great put your efforts into getting better and you'll be surprised even cheaters won't be able to keep up with you. Do you think Levi cares if someone else calls an arrow as pulling the line versus touching the line? I think he puts his arrow in the center and lets others worry about catching him. Spend more time shooting your bow and less time trying to create a perfect world and your scores will improve. They won't get better trying to re-invent the wheel with your typewriter. Just like our government trying to create a new law for guns, if 110 laws didn't stop sick people from killing innocent people how is 111.


Pretty much sums it up, Joe! But i'm sure this post will go on and on. The policing our own ranks In my opinion is the biggest gap right now.


----------



## field14

mhill said:


> the field of archers should be randomized, this way the strangers can keep each other honest.
> 
> or have an official scorer at each target and each official can then submit the scores and then tally them up according to shooter number then announce the results and then return the score cards to the shooter.


This would be interesting to implement, but have it set up to turn in the score for each shooter at each target and the computer database is automatically updated at that time. Wireless devices would work perfectly for this...Like to see them try to manipulate this...if the rule was you can NEVER be behind more than two targets on data entry...max, and that once submitted, no changes are allowed, period.
If the score was put in this way, it sure would nip 'going back and fixing' right in the bud.
In addition, the scores would be up and ready to hand out awards almost immediately after the round is completed and the postings would be ready to be put up, too.

Imagine that? USING the technology to make life easier for the hosts, reduce the potential of pencil pushing; all sorts of advantages. Just don't allow score changes once they have been transmitted to the database. Of course, I would well imagine there would be "abusers" of this system that would place an angle to the dangle and foul that up, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## baird794

Crow Terminator said:


> Taking stuff away don't stop the cheating. That's the same mindset that the people wanting to take guns away have. Making new rules wont do it either IF the ones already in place are not being enforced.
> 
> What we need is for the rules we already have, to be enforced with severe penalties to the ones caught breaking them. Such as...if caught cheating by pencil pushing, or whatever else...then your tournament days are done for whatever organization you were shooting in forever. That simply takes the wind out of the sails. Get caught cheating in an ASA sanctioned event...your ASA days are done forever. Then send their record to the other organizations as well...maybe even get them banned from shooting in those too. The only shoots they would be able to partake in then, would be local shoots....and if the local shooters found them out, then they too could stop them from even being able to shoot in the local ones. At least stop them from prize winning anyway. As in, they could still pay to shoot but their score card would just go in the trash can as soon as they turned it in.
> 
> Make an example or two out of some folks and make people see that they are serious about enforcing rules and those cheating will either stop and play fair or the cheaters will have to take up another sport because they wouldn't be eligible to shoot anymore tournaments.


enough said!! and call the cheaters out when they cheat and post them on here and what state there in. i think it would be alot harder to cheat on score if they went inside out or if they had to break the inside line of the 12, 11, 10, or 8 line. that way they couldn't pull the outer line a mile and call a higher score.


----------



## TAYLOR CO.

SonnyThomas said:


> bhtr3d said:
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, bhtr3d. I'll shoot anyway they want. So did scores suffer? Was there confusion? Still, I'd bet the same top shooters were at the top. Dang them
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it is not good for archery. Eventually, they will be found to be cheaters! I WOULD THINK THAT WILL STINK AND BE PENALTY ENOUGH.
Click to expand...


----------



## Supermag1

reylamb said:


> Oh, you and me both. But what happens when the entire group literally agrees to do just that with a pinky swear? Dead serious, they actual made a pinky swear.
> 
> It wasn't a group of new shooters either.....you may even be suprised who was in the group....and we will just leave it at that.


See this is what I'm talking about when I say spread the word about it. This is obviously a known occurance of cheating that wasn't punished by the governing body yet nobody will say who it is so there is absolutely no reprocussion on those people for breaking the rules. What's to say that they haven't done it since now that they know they can get away with it?


----------



## Bearlee

SonnyThomas said:


> Throw the above at me and I won't even sign up. I think I said it in so many words, the subject of cheating being discussed gets over blown and doesn't help one dang bit......


It is a shame you are not willing to help others, but I understand some people don't and are too lazy to go the extra mile.


----------



## Bearlee

reylamb said:


> Holy long days on the range batman........that would be an instant 6+ hour round....for 20 targets.


OK it would take about 1 minute longer per target, to help eradicate cheating, step up shoot go score walk balk and sign cards.

Sign cards is the only additional step in reality, about 1 minute.

I still say pros and semipros should step up and help with this problem.


----------



## SonnyThomas

reylamb said:


> Oh, you and me both. But what happens when the entire group literally agrees to do just that with a pinky swear? Dead serious, they actual made a pinky swear.
> 
> It wasn't a group of new shooters either.....you may even be suprised who was in the group....and we will just leave it at that.


So you didn't report a possible violation? If nothing else reporting such may be later result in clarification of rules and/or disqualification. I believe somewhere there is; "shooter must have control of their bow." I had this at the local level, reported after the fact and of two different issues. Both were looked into during following events. Both resulted in the violators losing out. The issues; One was higher scores for "close enough" and the other someone using a range finder as binoculars.


----------



## C.Callison

Rules can make it harder to cheat, but only the shooters can keep it under control. We have to speak up and call people out. This has to be done on the range and at the tents. It's up to us to make sure the range officals enforce the rules. A lot of people go by the old rule of "it's not my business" or I don't want to cause any trouble. I don't think there is anything wrong with someone asking a range offical why groups aren't busted. Even if the guy isn't in that group. The officals should get used to asking these questions and checking equipment. You don't have to make some new rules. We just need to get the shooters and the officals to ask questions and if you see something that is wrong call it out. It's supposed to be fun and noone wants to be the guy to told on someone. But someone has to do it,even if it isn't plesent. But if someone is realy cheating and the get called out. Who cares if the get mad or embarrashed.


----------



## field14

C.Callison said:


> Rules can make it harder to cheat, but only the shooters can keep it under control. We have to speak up and call people out. This has to be done on the range and at the tents. It's up to us to make sure the range officals enforce the rules. A lot of people go by the old rule of "it's not my business" or I don't want to cause any trouble. I don't think there is anything wrong with someone asking a range offical why groups aren't busted. Even if the guy isn't in that group. The officals should get used to asking these questions and checking equipment. You don't have to make some new rules. We just need to get the shooters and the officals to ask questions and if you see something that is wrong call it out. It's supposed to be fun and noone wants to be the guy to told on someone. But someone has to do it,even if it isn't plesent. But if someone is realy cheating and the get called out. Who cares if the get mad or embarrashed.


You ever hear of "bullying"? It goes on all the time...and includes ADULTS, too. Heck, I know of a World Class Champion Archer that exposed a "myth" and was indeed threatened with bodily harm for doing so by other Adult "champion shooters" that were pissed the myth was exposed! I've also been intimidated by threats before, too, and they aren't pleasant. With things the way they are today...you might be "safe" on the range...but what about in the back 40, or the parking lot, or the motel? Think about it; people are whacko sometimes.

Yeah, it might sound "chicken", but if you're going to step in and intervene, you'd better watch your step, dot your "i's" and cross your "t's", have your ducks in a row, and be prepared to defend and protect, too, along with being the pariah of that group, which also won't be pleasant. All over a cheater or nine? 

However, you are right...if people don't start standing up for what is right and allow cheating to go on unabated for fear...then things will only get worse and never nipped in the bud. STRICT enforcement of all the rules, and that includes the high profile PROS is an absolute necessity; one which isn't being accomplished consistently across the board regardless of notoriety or anything else. WHO you are has a lot to do with WHAT you can or cannot get away with.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> I do understand that. It's been being done as long as I've been playing the game.
> 
> I can't say that I've tried it but thats primarily because I don't believe it's accurate enough to be a real advantage. Heck, I have a set of $2500 Leica Geovid's with a laser built in that I can absolutely outshoot....... and often out judge (and I shoot Known yardage)... The LASER will blow targets by 2 yards fairly regularly. What you are talking about.....just using the focus knob or reference marks can't be any more accurate that the other common gapping techniques and definitely not as accurate as geometric judging techniques. The bino thing might keep a guy from blowing a target by 4 yards but it won't keep him within <1 yard.
> 
> I know of a good pro who was tracked during several rounds against a tape measure. From memory, he averaged being within .6 yards of the tape and only blew 1-2 targets out of 100+ by more than 1 yard. (my leica's aren't near that good...... the Leupold 1000 TBI that I do compete with is only barely that good).
> 
> You already know my answer for it though..... make the game all known yardage


Well I trust the pro who told me it happens and most pros realize it happens. He been a pro for longtime. Didnt say some cant judge yardage. But with binos and everthing including it a science that most pros use. Using the high power binos only made it easier.

I honestly never thought it was happening. Cant stop unless you take binos away.

Last year four pros reported another pro who they all thought was using his binos and nothing was done about it. Queesing its darn near impossiable to stop. I can only believe what Im told. 
DB


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Well I trust the pro who told me it happens and most pros realize it happens. He been a pro for longtime. Didnt say some cant judge yardage. But with binos and everthing including it a science that most pros use. Using the high power binos only made it easier.
> 
> I honestly never thought it was happening. Cant stop unless you take binos away.
> 
> Last year four pros reported another pro who they all thought was using his binos and nothing was done about it. Queesing its darn near impossiable to stop. I can only believe what Im told.
> DB


Like I said, DB...take the KNOWN and MEMORIZED targets away, then let's have 'em out on the courses in unfamiliar territory, with a mixed bag of targets, sizes, brands, colors, and see just what that "margin of error" is then. Just about guarantee it won't be better than the plus or minus 0.5 yards of a laser rangefinder that is properly utilized. These guys are good, but they aren't that good to outdo a laser rangefinder over the long course. I don't buy that for a minute. He who prepares the best for the test, does well on the test; those that don't, are duped and will get trounced every single time. Those that have the full set of targets to work with and practice upon admit that it makes all the difference in the world; you think they are out there "playing games"? Not if you want to place high on the leaderboard.

In addition, of course, knowing the distance is truly a small part of the matrix. Once you know the yardage, you gotta have confidence, not second guess yourself, and then KNOW where to aim and how to execute the shot properly. These guys not only are well practiced on the "test" given to them, well prepared for that test of those particular 20 targets, but they also have the capability of knowing how to execute the shot and put that arrow right where they are aiming, too. Doesn't come easy, and if you can't execute the shot, knowing the distance won't help much, other than maybe keeping you "on the foam."
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Padgett

Before last asa season I had a hard time believing that guys could just judge a course and be within a yard or maybe even within a half a yard because I had only shot local shoots and then I started going to all of the asa shoots. I show up after driving from 7 to 12 hours and go over to the practice 3d range and start walking from target to target guessing the ranges, we do this all day long off and on and don't even shoot. By the end of the day I go from 2 to 3 yds off on some targets to being either perfect on every target to maybe 1 yd off on a few. I am only a top ten guy in open b and open a and didn't get a podium, most of the time I am within a yard on 35 of the 40 targets and 2 to 4 yds on the rest with one disaster target that may be 7 yds off. to me that is the difference between me and the really good shooters because they are slightly better at shooting and they are 5 targets better than me at judging.

This year I am going to be better and I think I can get my decisions on distance to the point where I am 37 targets within a yard, I use a set of nikons I bought at walmart and the weights on my stabs will still be sockets.


----------



## Daniel Boone

field14 said:


> Like I said, DB...take the KNOWN and MEMORIZED targets away, then let's have 'em out on the courses in unfamiliar territory, with a mixed bag of targets, sizes, brands, colors, and see just what that "margin of error" is then. Just about guarantee it won't be better than the plus or minus 0.5 yards of a laser rangefinder that is properly utilized. These guys are good, but they aren't that good to outdo a laser rangefinder over the long course. I don't buy that for a minute. He who prepares the best for the test, does well on the test; those that don't, are duped and will get trounced every single time. Those that have the full set of targets to work with and practice upon admit that it makes all the difference in the world; you think they are out there "playing games"? Not if you want to place high on the leaderboard.
> 
> In addition, of course, knowing the distance is truly a small part of the matrix. Once you know the yardage, you gotta have confidence, not second guess yourself, and then KNOW where to aim and how to execute the shot properly. These guys not only are well practiced on the "test" given to them, well prepared for that test of those particular 20 targets, but they also have the capability of knowing how to execute the shot and put that arrow right where they are aiming, too. Doesn't come easy, and if you can't execute the shot, knowing the distance won't help much, other than maybe keeping you "on the foam."
> field14 (Tom D.)


Remember watching George Dixon one time hit the steel pig target at 3d range. I was shocked. Fact was it was an unfamilar target for him to judge. Having your own ranges is a plus but no granteed success.
DB


----------



## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> So you didn't report a possible violation? If nothing else reporting such may be later result in clarification of rules and/or disqualification. I believe somewhere there is; "shooter must have control of their bow." I had this at the local level, reported after the fact and of two different issues. Both were looked into during following events. Both resulted in the violators losing out. The issues; One was higher scores for "close enough" and the other someone using a range finder as binoculars.


It wasn't my range, it wasn't my class....I found out 3rd or 4th hand so I really had no say in any protests, and I didn't hear about it until the next day....which is too late to file any protests even if I could. I am not sure why none of the women's pro shooters on the range didn't file said protest.......it was a clear and egregious violation.......


----------



## field14

reylamb said:


> It wasn't my range, it wasn't my class....I found out 3rd or 4th hand so I really had no say in any protests, and I didn't hear about it until the next day....which is too late to file any protests even if I could. I am not sure why none of the women's pro shooters on the range didn't file said protest.......it was a clear and egregious violation.......


Intimidation? Bullying? Threats or promises of bodily harm? Oh, yeah...it runs the gauntlet these days...there is no HONOR anymore, and obviously no consequences are served for violations since it so easy to blame something or somebody else and get away with it. Nobody in authority has the cajunas to deal with this, so it is "let slide" in hopes it will go away.
This is disgusting as to what this and pretty much all sports have become in the way at which CHEATING is acceptable and even encouraged.
There is a case of PROVEN cheating, but yet, as far as I know, that score is STILL on the books in the standings; nothing has been done to correct the record of an obvious, clear and egregious violation at a major event!
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## dbell80

XForce Girl said:


> The only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


Sad to say but this is the only way.


----------



## ABTABB

There are at least 11 20 target ranges at the ASA Pro-Ams.. I would imagine trying to organize 220+ Judges for those ranges, would be difficult to say the least..


----------



## SonnyThomas

reylamb said:


> It wasn't my range, it wasn't my class....I found out 3rd or 4th hand so I really had no say in any protests, and I didn't hear about it until the next day....which is too late to file any protests even if I could. I am not sure why none of the women's pro shooters on the range didn't file said protest.......it was a clear and egregious violation.......


I had the one protest brought before me months after the incident, checked into it and was found something to watch. Nailed him.....
Something to think about....
1 - Officials can't do something if they don't know about it. A brief notation to headquarters is all that is needed - place, time, event, class.
2 - Those being effected by cheating can be turned off and quit archery. Who do you want, the cheater or honest shooter?


----------



## tmorelli

I think there is a lot more talk about cheating than there is actual cheating.

What do we do about all the excuse makers and whining?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Daniel Boone

Novice classes darn sure need to be watched better on state and national level.

Always been a sore spot with me.

I personally think they should take money out of novice class.

Your shooting 30 up your not a novice. You won on local level in open classes your not a novice.

Saw two from my own state shoot this class and win and neither was novice.

Many think because you never shot an ASA you should be allowed in novice class.

One of my pet peeves is members report it and then there frowned upon as a trouble maker. If you see cheating and dont report it that the promblem, then complain after the fact days later is wrong.
DB


----------



## reylamb

tmorelli said:


> I think there is a lot more talk about cheating than there is actual cheating.
> 
> What do we do about all the excuse makers and whining?
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Leave the excuse makers alone.....I am getting close to being finished with my new book, "Winning Excuses for Archery." Now how am I supposed to sell it if we eliminate the excuse makers.

Whiners, I agree completely. There was a club around here that had a large round barrel, lined with a black poly-plastic bag, aka a trash can. Posted on the side of the can was a sign that read "If you did not help work this shoot, put your complaints in here."



Daniel Boone said:


> Novice classes darn sure need to be watched better on state and national level.
> 
> Always been a sore spot with me.
> 
> I personally think they should take money out of novice class.
> 
> Your shooting 30 up your not a novice. You won on local level in open classes your not a novice.
> 
> Saw two from my own state shoot this class and win and neither was novice.
> 
> Many think because you never shot an ASA you should be allowed in novice class.
> 
> One of my pet peeves is members report it and then there frowned upon as a trouble maker. If you see cheating and dont report it that the promblem, then complain after the fact days later is wrong.
> DB


I agree with you completely on this one. 

I know of an individual that won his state in the novice class 3 years in a row.

I know of plenty of great pin shooters locally that went and entered novice class nationally and won.

It irks me to no end. Unfortunately, the ASA rules for the definition of Novice is too vague....First year ASA shooters is what it says. Is that first year Nationally, or does years of shooting locally count? Too vague, it needs to be clarified.

There was tons of gnashing of teeth in Georgia a few years ago when the State started bumping Novice shooter up, even if they had never shot nationally. 

Prime example about 4 years ago now. I caught wind of one of the top pin shooters in our area going to a qualifier to qualify for state as a novice. So, I called the then GA state rep and said, hey Mr State Rep....so and so has won our Hunter Class shooter of the Year for 3 years and will win Unlimited SOY this year. He just shot a qualifier in Novice. Said shooter was bumped to Hunter at the State shoot, where he dominated the state shoot, and then shot in Hunter at the Classic and dominated Hunter at the Classic. Me? I became despised for saying something, and was eventually ousted from being the President of the local club.....which was better for me in the long run anyway.

Take the money out of novice (and Open C for that matter) and you will go back to seeing true novice shooters in those classes.


----------



## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> I had the one protest brought before me months after the incident, checked into it and was found something to watch. Nailed him.....
> Something to think about....
> 1 - Officials can't do something if they don't know about it. A brief notation to headquarters is all that is needed - place, time, event, class.
> 2 - Those being effected by cheating can be turned off and quit archery. Who do you want, the cheater or honest shooter?


The Staff coordinator(s) for the shooters in the group were notified of the actions, as were the big dogs at ASA. At the Classic there was an announcement on the ASA pro ranges reminding everyone that shooting the wrong target was a 0 and could not be reshot.


----------



## Kstigall

SonnyThomas said:


> So you didn't report a possible violation? If nothing else reporting such may be later result in clarification of rules and/or disqualification. I believe somewhere there is; "shooter must have control of their bow." I had this at the local level, reported after the fact and of two different issues. Both were looked into during following events. Both resulted in the violators losing out. The issues; One was higher scores for "close enough" and the other someone using a range finder as binoculars.





Daniel Boone said:


> Well I trust the pro who told me it happens and most pros realize it happens. He been a pro for longtime. Didnt say some cant judge yardage. But with binos and everthing including it a science that most pros use. Using the high power binos only made it easier.
> 
> I honestly never thought it was happening. Cant stop unless you take binos away.
> 
> Last year four pros reported another pro who they all thought was using his binos and nothing was done about it. Queesing its darn near impossiable to stop. I can only believe what Im told.
> DB





SonnyThomas said:


> I had the one protest brought before me months after the incident, checked into it and was found something to watch. Nailed him.....
> Something to think about....
> 1 - Officials can't do something if they don't know about it. A brief notation to headquarters is all that is needed - place, time, event, class.
> 2 - Those being effected by cheating can be turned off and quit archery. Who do you want, the cheater or honest shooter?


It has been LONG understood that reporting a violation to an archery org can be a huge personal burden to bear. You almost have to force the NFAA to approach an amateur so obviously having them do anything to a Pro or a "name" archer is a joke. The NFAA leadership seems to always find a way to avoid dealing with difficult situations.

DB, you would be amazed and sad if you knew how many of the older 3D "name" guys were known to cheat back in the day and nothing was done. I still occasionally hear a story that I haven't heard previously. A couple of years ago a guy told me he watched one of the biggest names in archery break the fiber out of a "nobodys" sight that was beating him! He said he was young and so completely shocked that he froze. He's right though when he says NO ONE would have believed him. However, now I am about convinced that "cheating" by the pro's is very unusual and very unique.



tmorelli said:


> I think there is a lot more talk about cheating than there is actual cheating.
> 
> What do we do about all the excuse makers and whining?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I've been saying the same especially at ASA national events or anywhere people are randomly grouped with strangers. 

Hey, coming up with a new and creative excuse is what one of the more enjoyable aspects of archery...... and my ability to screw up a shot! 

However, at every IBO national shoot I've been too over the last few years I have personally heard the expression "I'll call them like that all day" on arrows that were clearly outside the higher scoring ring. But all I or another archer had to do was to stand our ground for legitimate scoring to occur. Once at World's two in the group were very upset that we weren't going to record bogus calls. Luckily, the arrow in question was the other scorers arrow and he would not accept the arrow callers bogus higher score. I bet it was 45 minutes before the 2 "fuzzy callers" even spoke to us.

I believe the internet and AT have had a very positive impact on increasing the integrity of archery and increasing the archery orgs responsibility to it's members. What previously could be swept under the rug or easily manipulated to a point of utter confusion is now publicly and promptly exposed. I know of a couple of incidents that were made public and widely discussed within hours of happening! It is real difficult for a organization to avoid dealing with an issue when actual witnesses to the event have a public audience...... Hence the reason "leadership" really does not like AT. They can't manipulate or throw up a good smoke screen if "joe nobody" has broad access to an orgs membership.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Kstigall said:


> It has been LONG understood that reporting a violation to an archery org can be a huge personal burden to bear. You almost have to force the NFAA to approach an amateur so obviously having them do anything to a Pro or a "name" archer is a joke. The NFAA leadership seems to always find a way to avoid dealing with difficult situations.
> 
> DB, you would be amazed and sad if you knew how many of the older 3D "name" guys were known to cheat back in the day and nothing was done. I still occasionally hear a story that I haven't heard previously. A couple of years ago a guy told me he watched one of the biggest names in archery break the fiber out of a "nobodys" sight that was beating him! He said he was young and so completely shocked that he froze. He's right though when he says NO ONE would have believed him. However, now I am about convinced that "cheating" by the pro's is very unusual and very unique.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been saying the same especially at ASA national events or anywhere people are randomly grouped with strangers.
> 
> Hey, coming up with a new and creative excuse is what one of the more enjoyable aspects of archery...... and my ability to screw up a shot!
> 
> However, at every IBO national shoot I've been too over the last few years I have personally heard the expression "I'll call them like that all day" on arrows that were clearly outside the higher scoring ring. But all I or another archer had to do was to stand our ground for legitimate scoring to occur. Once at World's two in the group were very upset that we weren't going to record bogus calls. Luckily, the arrow in question was the other scorers arrow and he would not accept the arrow callers bogus higher score. I bet it was 45 minutes before the 2 "fuzzy callers" even spoke to us.
> 
> I believe the internet and AT have had a very positive impact on increasing the integrity of archery and increasing the archery orgs responsibility to it's members. What previously could be swept under the rug or easily manipulated to a point of utter confusion is now publicly and promptly exposed. I know of a couple of incidents that were made public and widely discussed within hours of happening! It is real difficult for a organization to avoid dealing with an issue when actual witnesses to the event have a public audience...... Hence the reason "leadership" really does not like AT. They can't manipulate or throw up a good smoke screen if "joe nobody" has broad access to an orgs membership.


In the day. You know I have been around this sport a longtime and cheating happens and we all know it happens in amatuers and Pros. It just not a ASA promblem and something that happens in most sports. How to deal with it is the promblem.
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas

Don't what the rules are, but Kstigall noting the "breaking of a fiber pin" reminded my of someone moving someone's peep. So yeah, anyone caught screwing with someone's equipment should be a automatic disqualification.


----------



## ccwilder3

SonnyThomas said:


> Don't what the rules are, but Kstigall noting the "breaking of a fiber pin" reminded my of *someone moving someone's peep*. So yeah, anyone caught screwing with someone's equipment should be a automatic disqualification.


I had that happen to me a couple of years back. Always keep your bow in sight or where someone you trust can see it.


----------



## dbell80

ABTABB said:


> There are at least 11 20 target ranges at the ASA Pro-Ams.. I would imagine trying to organize 220+ Judges for those ranges, would be difficult to say the least..


I know but, what other sport has officiating only part of the competition? It’s like letting NBA players call there on fouls. I think it happens a lot more at local events. I would rather all local events have random grouping unless shooting for fun.


----------



## Kstigall

Daniel Boone said:


> In the day. You know I have been around this sport a longtime and cheating happens and we all know it happens in amatuers and Pros. It just not a ASA promblem and something that happens in most sports. How to deal with it is the promblem.
> DB


I'm not saying you haven't been around. The '80's is the reason there are so many precise rules like once an archer draws his bow he is NOT allowed to let down and re-set his sights (marked sights for ranging). There's a very good reason why the IBO began toting a chrony and scales around on the ranges spot checking folks. Folks used to "load" up a couple of arrows for a chrony check and I believe now testers pick the arrow and watch to make sure you come to full draw. Cranking limbs up and down was a favorite thing to do in the beginning of 3D but the speeds of current bows has made that a much less valuable cheating method.

Marking binos was popular for ranging targets at one time but as people became very good at judging yardage it really has little benefit for the better 3D'ers. I've played with the focus on binos and due to the variety of lighting conditions, target locations and target variations it takes a LOT of effort to use binos for a half way accurate measure of short distance targets. 45 yards is a short distance.

The fact is that rough estimates of the distance to the target just does not get you close to the top of any class any more. Because of that many of the cheating methods for short distance estimating are about useless for anyone that is capable of competing for $$. Personally, I couldn't care less if someone cheats and beats me for a $5 ribbon at a local shoot. If I did I would not be shooting BowHunter class gear in Open class at local shoots.

In 3D I feel the ASA has the best format for controlling cheating and the IBO the worst. As I said I really think there is LESS cheating now than there was many years ago especially in the more advanced classes especially in Pro classes. BUT the majority of archers are "middle of the pack" finishers so that is where "cheating" has to be well policed. IF the majority of archers (customers) are frustrated do to the jerks cheating it is NOT good for archery.

It's very difficult to catch and to "convict" a crook so when you do the penalty must be harsh even if it is a "white collar" crime. A cheat is a crook. An organization that drops the hammer on a cheat whether he is a joe or an archery god would be go a long way to making the game more attractive and archers more respectful of rules. Member conduct should be a primary concern of any organization.


----------



## Kstigall

SonnyThomas said:


> Don't what the rules are, but Kstigall noting the "breaking of a fiber pin" reminded my of someone moving someone's peep. So yeah, anyone caught screwing with someone's equipment should be a automatic disqualification.


I am certain I got "punked" this past 3D season at a major local shoot. I had been fairly careful but not super vigilant but that has changed.


----------



## reylamb

dbell80 said:


> I know but, what other sport has officiating only part of the competition?


Golf. Golfers routinely call penalties upon themselves, penalties that are not always seen by officials.


----------



## dbell80

reylamb said:


> Golf. Golfers routinely call penalties upon themselves, penalties that are not always seen by officials.


True and so do most archers. But there are officials atleast watching every stroke. And there would be alot more doubt about golf scores if the ball had to just touch a spot instead of dropping in the hole.


----------



## rhyno_071

tmorelli said:


> I think there is a lot more talk about cheating than there is actual cheating.
> 
> What do we do about all the excuse makers and whining?
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I agree and great question.


----------



## f166

Rent a set a orange or green binoculars and then everyone has the same set


----------



## Joe Schnur

Folks are always uncomfortable about calling it as it is. Post rules check Gear before heading out onto the course. Iolators forfeit entry fee and ban for 2 events. But make it clear have registration folks read the card with basic cheeting avoidance rules . Put short contract on the back of the score card have competitors read and sign card at registration. Fello archers need to police themselves. And remember in the long run you only cheet yourself. Truly great archers don't need to cheat. By the way why is a range finder an issue most archers would range a record buck in the real world so why all the fus about a simulated hunting situation?


----------



## cenochs

I know cell phones are not allowed on the course but it would be nice to have a number you could text if you saw cheating going on and this would allow range officials to check things out quickly. It would be a anamous they use this type of thing at some college football games if people are doing something they shouldn't you can text what you see and they come and check things out. Just an idea !!


----------



## J Whittington

1.We need an archeyr org that actually cares about integrity of the sport, not just making $
b. The current rule of policing ourselves is nothing more than pure lazy ness on the archery orgs. PAYING customers should not be required TO DO THEIR JOBS! Most other sports have refs, umpires. It should be no different for a National Event. Archery competitiors on the 3D range do not want to call someone out, because of the fear of being "black balled" by other shooters.

In every pro classe, range officials needs to be calling disputed arrows? Not he shooters themselves. Here is my arguments why:
"Team mate calls" One cannot help but notice how many shooter that Brand "x" is shooting compared to brand "Y" and "p" Most of the time brand x is going to receive a favorable call due to his/her teamates. and team Y and P will not, especially if that call will hinder a team x team mate.

and, this boiled my blood,,,, I personally have heard this comment several times " You haven't spent enough time in this class to get that call" I have herad this from a Sr pro class, several times!!! thats BS 

If the arrow is there, give them the call, regardless of what brand of bow, arrow, or time in sport,,,,,

my last gripe......Team X has a member who is late all the time...hes late to pro events, local shoots, etc. NEVER on time, but because he has a TV show, he thinks he deserves special consideration.... bull hocky


----------



## BTShooter

I say put a range official at each target for higher-level shoots. Could be more expensive to run the shoot, but seems like it would fix a lot of problems.


----------



## field14

J Whittington said:


> 1.We need an archeyr org that actually cares about integrity of the sport, not just making $
> b. The current rule of policing ourselves is nothing more than pure lazy ness on the archery orgs. PAYING customers should not be required TO DO THEIR JOBS! Most other sports have refs, umpires. It should be no different for a National Event. Archery competitiors on the 3D range do not want to call someone out, because of the fear of being "black balled" by other shooters.
> 
> _In every pro classe, range officials needs to be calling disputed arrows? Not he shooters themselves. Here is my arguments why:
> "Team mate calls" One cannot help but notice how many shooter that Brand "x" is shooting compared to brand "Y" and "p" Most of the time brand x is going to receive a favorable call due to his/her teamates. and team Y and P will not, especially if that call will hinder a team x team mate_.
> 
> and, this boiled my blood,,,, I personally have heard this comment several times " _You haven't spent enough time in this class to get that call" I have herad this from a Sr pro class, several times_!!! thats BS
> 
> If the arrow is there, give them the call, regardless of what brand of bow, arrow, or time in sport,,,,,
> 
> my last gripe......Team X has a member who is late all the time...hes late to pro events, local shoots, etc. NEVER on time, but because he has a TV show, he thinks he deserves special consideration.... bull hocky


Double standards exist...PROS get special treatment, and one big one in 3-D is the total lack of enforcement on the time limit...the excuse being: "They are shooting for money so they need the extra time." Heard that more than once.

I'll tell you what about "line judges" too...There are line judges out there that are friends with people on the shooting line. I have it on reliable source that recently, the same line judge called arrows "IN" for their best friend when it was obvious to the shooters on the bale, including the shooter asking for the "call" that the arrow was OUT...However, that particular judge, specifically, and not another one that was available, was called over all three times and the "call" was as "IN". BULL HOCKEY On this too. If a "line judge" is a friend of a person on that bale, they should NOT be calling arrows on that bale. They can easily notice by looking at the quiver just who's arrow they are calling. Tough to remain impartial when it is a close friend!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## Firstegg

hrtlnd164 said:


> The rules for everything that"s illegal are already in place. What is needed is enforcement of those rules. That sometimes doesn't get done by leaving the shooters police themselves. Face it, there are alot of shooters who don't know the rules to begin with. There are also many that don't want to be "that guy" and speak up, he's there to enjoy his weekend of shooting and not be in a pissing match with the group all weekend. Why write rules and leave the enforcement out of the equation. I know it will probably never be an option but "informed" range officials on the courses is the only way to minimize the opportunities for the cheaters.JMO


Take a page out of golf and have range marshalls all over the place.


----------



## field14

Firstegg said:


> Take a page out of golf and have range marshalls all over the place.


Yep there is plenty of "exaggerated line pulling" going on out there, along with rubber pencils and other shenanigans...and the intimidation factor and double standard is HUGE. The new kid on the block is nearly helpless and will/is being bullied; no doubt about it.

Pulling a line 1/4" or even more? Unacceptable, but I have that on reliable source it is pretty common; obviously other rules violations are not reported either...because of what you said above.
It ain't just in 3-D either...!!!!
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## ridgehunter70

I know, if you catch them, then go up to them and say, you deserve this and punch them in their suckhole. lol just kidding


----------



## Firstegg

xforce girl said:


> the only way to stop cheating 100% is to have judges at each target who call the arrows and write in scores.
> 
> Sent from my droid x2 using tapatalk 2


x2^^^


----------



## Padgett

Eliminate humans from shooting 3d .


----------



## SonnyThomas

One or two replied that this cheating thing was blowed out of proportion and they're right. This ain't happening everytime we turn around. I'm not going to worry about it.


----------



## threetoe

And Sonny, at our club, for winning you get a 50 cent piece of wood.

The real problem (IMHO) is the total lack of Virtue, Integrity, Honor, Ethics, truth, decency and morals displayed by so many people today. The Liberal Social Engineering of the last 30 years is on display. Certain groups of individuals actually are pleased with themselves when they cheat and win.

I play it straight. My buddies play it straight.

I really only care about improving my skills for that chance when it's that moment of truth. Ethical harvest is my only goal.

No.. I don't respect cheaters and I have NO PROBLEM voicing it too.
I have p issed off a few.


----------



## ridgehunter70

threetoe said:


> And Sonny, at our club, for winning you get a 50 cent piece of wood.
> 
> The real problem (IMHO) is the total lack of Virtue, Integrity, Honor, Ethics, truth, decency and morals displayed by so many people today. The Liberal Social Engineering of the last 30 years is on display. Certain groups of individuals actually are pleased with themselves when they cheat and win.
> 
> I play it straight. My buddies play it straight.
> 
> I really only care about improving my skills for that chance when it's that moment of truth. Ethical harvest is my only goal.
> 
> No.. I don't respect cheaters and I have NO PROBLEM voicing it too.
> I have p issed off a few.



i will agree with everything you just said. if they get pissed off then they were doing something wrong.i have never called anyone out on cheating but i know there are a few that does it so thats the shoots i decide to stay away from.


----------



## Sean243

This is not a solution to much of anything, but if the IBO isn't going to peer group until the third shoot, couldn't they at least send an official along with any group that contains two people that both finished in the top five from the first shoot. Not for the entire shoot, just for 10 or 20 targets. That would be interesting. Okay, in all seriousness, I got nothing. Unless the existing rules are enforced amongst the shooters and by the organizations, things aren't going to improve much.


----------



## carlosii

Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking.

if there's that much cheating going on, then that reflects the character of those doing the cheating. and if a person will cheat about something so unimportant as an archery score, then you can't trust them to not cheat on the job or in their marriage.


----------



## Douglesolocam

There are just those people that are gonna fudge the score no matter what cause they can't just take defeat so they are always gonna try to cheat.


----------



## Takeum

You know there was once upon a time a word called integrity that meant something to some people... I suppose the world or winning at any cost has won over even in the world of archery,,,, Personally, I'd rather shoot with people with integrity then a cheat, Lets just split this down the center and let the cheats of the bow world shoot one league, and let guys with rules and integrity shoot another...


----------



## hankw_2009

we all know the best solution to this and that is a official scorer(honest also) to be sent out with every group.... but like you mentioned earlier it is not a possibility but it would solve some of the problems... well here's to dreaming....


----------



## Gcs13

The only way to stop cheating IMO is, there has to be official at each target. The official would check equipment, speed, and keep score. But it's not going to happen on the small local clubs. All we can do is, go shoot and have fun. If you see somebody cheating, report it to a club official.


----------



## IRISH_11

Ban them for life!


----------



## Green River

Kill them!


----------



## TeamWinker

If you want to put a big dent in the cheating, then you need to seriously consider getting rid of the unknown distances. Mark the distance and let the best shooter win!


----------



## shootist

TeamWinker said:


> If you want to put a big dent in the cheating, then you need to seriously consider getting rid of the unknown distances. Mark the distance and let the best shooter win!


That game already exists in numerous formats. Indoor, outdoor FITA, Field, oh and marked classes in 3d. Cheating on distance judging is not very prominent. I can only think of 1 instance in recent history that it has been a problem.


----------



## WhitBri

We would first have to agree to what cheating is. Example #1 Two targets set where shooting lanes can be seen of both when retrieving arrows and I shoot target one for 37 and hit, I notice target two is a little farther shoot it for 42 and drill it. Am I cheating by being observant of this fact that everyone else can see. Example #2 I shoot target one for 37 again, using my binos for getting the spot, drill it, go to next target guess it for 48 , look through my binos and realize I don't have to adjust the focus so it must be closer to the last target at 37. Don't have any marks on my binos and the binos are perfectly legal to the shoot. 
Example #3 I have been listening to the guys bows as we have been shooting and paying attention the length of time between bow noise and arrow hitting target and what range said target was at. Get to target and start ranging, listen to my group shoot as I'm last on this target and realize my intial guess was way off due to listening to them shoot. Example #4 I judge target pull up too shoot and realize that said target looks way too big through my scope for the distance I guessed so without letting down I aim low and hit my mark.
All examples are things that everyone that shoots the course can do, now many are not observant enough to use these items. Are they cheating? Should we penalize guys for shooting a lot and be observant or what they see recording in their memory for later use. 
Obviously some things are black and white but there are grey area too. 
My personal defination of cheating is using something that is not available to all competitors to your advantage. Unleveling the playing field.


----------



## Unicron

I honestly think Bino's shouldn't be use in a 3D shoot with unmarked shots, for the simple fact you just stated. Might just as well allow DSLR's and Rangefinders as well...

Ideally, I'd say put the other shooters behind a blind so they cannot see the shot by the other shooters.

And of course have double scoring if not refs at every target.


----------



## WhitBri

I understand your point unicron, especially since they have done away with 8x limit. 8x you can only do so much "rangefinding" but higher powers make this much easier. Anyone know why they did away with the limit


----------



## tmorelli

Get rid of binos and you handicap the guys with less than perfect eyesight even more. 

I say just make 3d known distance. Unknown should be the novelty classes.... it is a primary reason the sport isn't growing. 

To be competitive at high level unknown a person needs to own all the targets, own or have access to the land for the range and have a job that allows the time to spend judging them.

The problem is that people who can judge but can't shoot go from the top 25% of their class to the bottom 25%.... so they are naturally resistant.

This day in age, virtually every hunter enters the woods with a RF. Judging is a dying art.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Unicron

If you want know distance, why not just go shoot field or fita-type matches for that matter.

The "fun" is in the judging, having to judge without any special aids. Making judgement calls and hitting targets that are not straight up facing you.

Known distance 3D would be a reason for me to quit this kind of match. I must say I also don't like how must shoots have broadside shots only.

Who decided it was fun to have so many close scores in the top level. Honestly if a shoot has more than 3 persons hitting perfect scores, the course was too easy.

I get the point about bad eye sight, but don't forget, I (with 20/20 - used to be even better) sight get more magnification and detail out of 8x binos than most people. Binos only magnify the advantage in sight people already have.

I'd rather have the pro's separate themselves from the rest by hitting more targets rather than getting more points for small "special" areas on the animals. 100 yard shots on large non-broadside animals through the woods are far more exhilarating than "oh I need to get 12 on this 27.4 yard deer to stay tied".

Surely there is nothing wrong with a "hunter" class if you just want to turn it into a hunting simulation, but you might as well just allow a range finder then, but don't forget to add a strict time limit in that case.


----------



## WhitBri

I agree with unicron. Although I think there is a place for the known distance class, making it all known is just making 3d into a field course and we all see how well they are doing. I think we have to stick to the rules we have, make it a priority to know the rules, and self police better. At the top levels where money is at stake probably need to get more range officials out there that are willing to call someone on an infraction.


----------



## OCD Archery

Witnessed almost every conceivable topic discussed here from seeing pros to semi pros blatantly rule breaking, or the battle over a 50 cent trophy.. and even won titles myself and been accused.. so .. truly have felt all avenues of emotion on this level.. I play golf and approach archery similar.. trying to be a scratch player.. no handicap.. shot an R100.. personal goal was an even round.. especially in 100+ heat and having hosted the event and spent several days prior prepping.. but managed to get my pin for my *personal accomplishment*.. had my kids keeping score.. and they call em out, before in .. believe me .. lol ... but in the conditions I felt I shot very well and stayed focused and progressed through a brutal weekend.. then the stories started at the awards.. as people we seen and heard missing multiple targets both days sporting their 1000 score pins.. .. I look at mine and feel good.. they are reminded that they are scandalous when they look at theirs.. 
As to $ on the line tho.. that's a whole different scenario.. Rules are Rules.. Need to be enforced.. From peers and officials.. Stand behind me and try to shake me by not being quiet even tho I am for you.. then you'll watch me let down.. sit the bow down for a second.. glare a smirky smile in your direction and slow up the tourney a tiny bit more as I put ear plugs in and focus on handing you your ass.. fairly... turnabout is fair play .. and competition is exactly that.. but when there is $ on the line.. It does need to be policed better.. I have many many ideas but truly am not gonna let them all out of the bag as I have visions of re-inventing the way we shoot competitive 3D in years to come.. think ASA only better... been excited to see another organization pop up and try to do it all better, or make the same mistakes .. who knows.. we'll see.. There is a sure fire way to make this all a thing of the past.. guaranteed.. but that would fall on deaf ears to set in ways organizations.. Guess we'll just invite all of AT to our launch and redefine the nature of pure competition without the chance of cheating in the paying classes.. Even on a 3D course.. hmmmm... everybody thinks.. what the hell could this guy be suggesting..? I'm saying there's always more than one way to do something.. and the ASA took a great direction in the way they host tournaments and promote our sport. There needs to be more rule enforcements to combat the issues at hand, and some innovators to take it all to the next level..!! :shade:


----------



## nochance

TeamWinker said:


> If you want to put a big dent in the cheating, then you need to seriously consider getting rid of the unknown distances. Mark the distance and let the best shooter win!


c'mon seriously???? people are quick to accuse if they get beat. If you don't like unmarked yardage then don't shoot it!


----------



## nochance

lets face it people that don't like unmarked yardage think it shouldn't be allowed. This topic comes up over and over again Ibo bad, Asa good. I'll keep shooting Ibo because I don't have a problem with them. I like unmarked yardage, I've shot known yardage and like that also. Let people shoot what they want not what you want!!


----------



## nochance

oh and by the way.. I don't own or have ever owned a rangefinder.


----------



## BigGobbler

All good points take the unknown yardage out and make it known. It comes down to the shot. Its my input and nothing more we could argue it all day. Just saying.


----------



## nochance

BigGobbler said:


> All good points take the unknown yardage out and make it known. It comes down to the shot. Its my input and nothing more we could argue it all day. Just saying.


sounds like another guy that can't judge yardage, if you don't like it just shoot know yardage, just cause your getting beat doesn't mean people are cheating!!!


----------



## tmorelli

nochance said:


> sounds like another guy that can't judge yardage, if you don't like it just shoot know yardage, just cause your getting beat doesn't mean people are cheating!!!


Sounds like another guy who's attitude keeps him from being a competitor at any tournament outside his backyard.... known or unknown distance.

See, I can be a jerk too. Did it get us anywhere?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nochance

tmorelli said:


> Sounds like another guy who's attitude keeps him from being a competitor at any tournament outside his backyard.... known or unknown distance.
> 
> See, I can be a jerk too. Did it get us anywhere?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


tell me again how getting rid of unknown yardage classes is so great?? They seem to be pretty popular around here in NY.. I do ok in known and unknown yardage at times. get my but stomped some times as well. But I don't blame it on cheating. One could say you only do good in your back yard as well but I don't know you so I won't make an ignorant statement like that. enlighten me how all cheating is done at unknown yardage shoots??


----------



## tmorelli

nochance said:


> tell me again how getting rid of unknown yardage classes is so great?? They seem to be pretty popular around here in NY.. I do ok in known and unknown yardage at times. get my but stomped some times as well. But I don't blame it on cheating. One could say you only do good in your back yard as well but I don't know you so I won't make an ignorant statement like that. enlighten me how all cheating is done at unknown yardage shoots??


I think I put my thoughts on this pointless thread months ago but basically....

1. Judging is a dying art. The vast majority of hunters rely on a RF.

2. Being competitive at high level unknown distance is a rich man's game. You must own the targets, have a place to put them and a job that allows the opportunity to study them.

3. The VAST majority or all of the cheating issues are gone if the game is known distance. Binos, stepping off targets, gapping, etc.... virtually every AT gripe thread goes void. Though I'll say most are just whiners anyway.

4. If the game is known, it doesn't matter nearly so much what the targets are.... think Redding with or without dots as you please.

5. Unicron obviously isn't "from around here." He's talking about novelty shoot junk....

6. I'm not saying do away with known; I'm calling for a changing of the guard. Known should be the primary pro class and primary trail of developmental classes. Like it or not, the day is coming for all the reasons above (primarily target associated costs) IMO, the sooner, the better.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nochance

perhaps your point of view is more prevalent in ASA areas? Unknown yardage classes are still very popular here in NY. Even in regional and state triple crowns groups are broken up which helps eliminate much cheating. Dual score cards help as well. as said before I do not own a range finder(too cheap, maybe). I don't think most people around here have a home range with all the targets for judging. But quite often the ones that do the best are the ones that do the most shoots in the area seeing large variety of the targets in different settings(the ones that work the hardest at it). as for your 1st point above I think many people think that this 3d should be just like hunting and obviously it isn't ( not even hunter class). Good luck this summer and hopefully we can let this thread die.


----------



## TeamWinker

Quote Originally Posted by TeamWinker View Post
If you want to put a big dent in the cheating, then you need to seriously consider getting rid of the unknown distances. Mark the distance and let the best shooter win!



nochance said:


> c'mon seriously???? people are quick to accuse if they get beat. If you don't like unmarked yardage then don't shoot it!


i only shoot known, never claimed to be able to judge distance and dont get upset when i get beat at unknown. i do however have to listen to all the *****ing on the range from guys complaining about cheating. S it just seems like the easy solution is to mark the distance and shoot!


----------



## dan&deb

This is how we do it, first day shoot for scores and the next day the 5 or 6 highest get together, shooting with a group of your peers and two score keepers in the group keeps you honest. The others on down do the same.


----------



## wpk

How about people do the right thing and DON'T CHEAT 
And if caught cheating you are suspended from competition for a minimum of one year 
And then maybe a vote by your peers to come back


----------



## longdraw31

I know 2 guys that go to every IBO event together and stay together. They get there early on Friday and never shoot there 1st shot till Saturday afternoon. They never shoot together. They both shoot different courses.Amagine that!!!!! If you stand around at an IBO long enough,guys talk about the tuff shoots. They probally know about the 5 or 6 worst shots right down to the yard. Just for the heck of it,I looked them up on the IBO web site for IBO Worlds and sure enough, they are shooting different courses the 1st day. They will be able be able to give each other the exact yardages for there 2nd day. They both do very well in IBO but get there butts trimmed in ASA. 1 reason I don't like the IBO. Legal way of cheating.


----------



## EROS

Sometimes I think we spend to much time on this subject. If your running a range the shooters will police themselves. If someone is pushing a pencil shooters will let you know. If you feel it's getting out of hand have a shooter you know shoot with that group.


----------



## schmel_me

We are very fortunate around here to have a ton of indoor 3d shoots. Cheating is non existent shooting line type shoots so they have a large following with the competitive crowd. Most of the outdoor club shoots the target shooters pay there "donation" and shoot for fun because the blatant cheating is so common.


----------



## wpk

I want to know how friends get to shoot together at worlds. 
I thought it was random


----------



## mag41vance

Get rid of Bino's! Will also speed up the rounds dramatically. Too many have learned how to use them to cheat.
Make the scoring rings on the targets obvious. Then Nobody needs binos. 
No shooting with Friends on State level events.


----------



## EROS

mag41vance said:


> Get rid of Bino's! Will also speed up the rounds dramatically. Too many have learned how to use them to cheat.
> Make the scoring rings on the targets obvious. Then Nobody needs binos.
> No shooting with Friends on State level events.


Not sure if you use your equipment and maximize it how is that cheating. Or you talking about range finder binos


----------



## mag41vance

EROS said:


> Not sure if you use your equipment and maximize it how is that cheating. Or you talking about range finder binos


I don't cheat. I had heard how some have figured it out. I have shot 3D on a very limited basis over the last 3 years due to the fact that cheating is much more of a topic in the Sponge Bob arena. Quite frankly, it's tiring to hear all of the incidences of it. 
Cheaters are everywhere no matter what you do.
I have spent the vast majority of my shooting on Field Courses. I use my Binos to read target hits before and after the shots.
Cheating hurts everyone, but it should be devastating to the perpetrator.


----------



## ElMonstroChillR

great thread... old posting but I had to input my thought.

their is NO INTEGRITY to the cheating archer.

my youngest was once accused of cheating due to a small binocular that looked similar to a range finder. Kept hitting his targets one by one with great scores.. A parent called me out in front of everyone and ohh boy I was so ready to make him look like fool...... and I did!!!

My family and I have witnessed first hand archers do to cheat and receive trophies/medals or prizes (range finder, incorrect shooting stake, cell phones.). 

IMHO, each station should have a designated official judge to verify the shooter score and correct shooting marker. Its 2016, its about time to have real time shooting scores at the main judges table.


----------



## Left I Dominant

At the big shoot in Pheinix City last year I was walking to the practice range and I saw a guy on a stool behind his truck writing numbers down from his cell phone in 2 columns. I had my own sight problem to straighten out and it didnt dawn on me what this guy was doing until I got to my day 1 Range a few minutes early and some guys were talking about someone pre ranging and then the light bulb went ON! 
There is a whole Family in my Town that travels to these big ASA events but never shoot locally because theyve been caught cheating so many times. We had someone follow them with a camera when they shot in a family group and snapped every target and they had added almost 30 points. They are wearing the Mathews shirt now and the guys son isnt shooting anymore because he blew his paw off playing with a GLOCK. This guy always wants to have a (shooting)group prayer too, lmao. Since this family is taking a camper to the ASA shoots and staying on site, it certainly gives one the opportunity to pre range.

Another issue is Career Novice Shooters. The ASA is saying '' We dont care who is a sandbagger, every bodies $$ is good at the ASA" . It gives the impression the ASA really doesn't care as much as you would hope they would on this issue. The goal is to WIN no matter what the means are and the ASA is saying thats OK, just dont be too obvious.


----------



## arrowblaster

I don't care what is said, done, or changed, someone WILL cheat! End of story. It's in some peoples nature, just like habitual liars. I also agree with keeping unknown yardages. It's part of our competition. If you want known, have it set up like a hunter class in IBO, you win, you have to move to next higher class. JMO. I love this GREAT sport, and I will shoot it no matter what, because I ENJOY it!!!


----------



## Kstigall

Left I Dominant said:


> At the big shoot in Pheinix City last year I was walking to the practice range and I saw a guy on a stool behind his truck writing numbers down from his cell phone in 2 columns. I had my own sight problem to straighten out and it didnt dawn on me what this guy was doing until I got to my day 1 Range a few minutes early and some guys were talking about someone pre ranging and then the light bulb went ON!
> There is a whole Family in my Town that travels to these big ASA events but never shoot locally because theyve been caught cheating so many times. We had someone follow them with a camera when they shot in a family group and snapped every target and they had added almost 30 points. They are wearing the Mathews shirt now and the guys son isnt shooting anymore because he blew his paw off playing with a GLOCK. This guy always wants to have a (shooting)group prayer too, lmao. Since this family is taking a camper to the ASA shoots and staying on site, it certainly gives one the opportunity to pre range.
> 
> Another issue is Career Novice Shooters. The ASA is saying '' We dont care who is a sandbagger, every bodies $$ is good at the ASA" . It gives the impression the ASA really doesn't care as much as you would hope they would on this issue. The goal is to WIN no matter what the means are and the ASA is saying thats OK, just dont be too obvious.


There in no such thing in the ASA! Bow Novice and Open C have very low requirements for being moved up. I have seen an accomplished IBO veteran start in a much lower class in the ASA. But Mike T. can't be expected to know every single good IBO archer by name!


Below is copied directly from the ASA rules:

Open C is reserved for participants who shoot at the novice level with open equipment. At any point during the season that a competitor in Open C earns $400.00 or more they are required to compete in a higher Open class or Hunter.

Bow Novice is reserved for participants who are new to ASA competition, or that won less than $300.00 in prize money in this class in their most recent year of ASA Pro/Am competition. At any point during the season that a competitor in this class earns more than $300.00 they are required to compete in a higher class. 

I guess you could "sandbag" and only win a little bit each year in a "novice" class but I wouldn't go bragging about it to anyone that knows even a little about the ASA! Only a sad sack would sandbag a novice class to win a few hundred dollars _before _expenses. I expect some of the guys that say or act like they are sandbagging really aren't sandbagging.......they actually are not good enough to win out!!!


----------



## Padgett

The more years I shoot 3d I see fewer and fewer cheaters, I think most of it is in our heads. I don't mind cheaters, for the most part we beat them anyways, most of them suck so bad that even with a little pencil whipping they still come in 30 points down from us. 

For the most part, if the solid shooter in the area if you would just let them in your group so that they can see what being a really good shooter is all about it would help a great deal. Most new 3d shooters see the huge scores and just can't believe they are possible and they immediately think there is something fishy. So get them in your group and let them see you shoot 50% of the 12's or more on a moderate to easy course and shoot 40 to 60 up. Many times we get into our group of buddies and we never let anyone in because it is full but sometimes breaking into two groups and letting a new shooter in can be something good. When he goes back to his normal group he can brag about how good you guys really are and that the 48 up score was solid and amazing to watch instead of the normal they are just cheating.


----------



## Padgett

Almost everytime I go to a new local shoot just out of my area and put up a strong score people look at me like I am a cheater, it is just part of getting your face out there. Usually the minute I speak up and there is a asa shooter in the area they will speak up for me and say that is Socket Man on archery talk and then things are good. I have had a local tournament look me in the face and say that my score was impossible and throw it in the trash. We kept going back even though we didn't want to and things are better now.


----------



## Kstigall

Padgett said:


> The more years I shoot 3d I see fewer and fewer cheaters, I think most of it is in our heads. I don't mind cheaters, for the most part we beat them anyways, most of them suck so bad that even with a little pencil whipping they still come in 30 points down from us.
> 
> For the most part, if the solid shooter in the area if you would just let them in your group so that they can see what being a really good shooter is all about it would help a great deal. Most new 3d shooters see the huge scores and just can't believe they are possible and they immediately think there is something fishy. So get them in your group and let them see you shoot 50% of the 12's or more on a moderate to easy course and shoot 40 to 60 up. Many times we get into our group of buddies and we never let anyone in because it is full but sometimes breaking into two groups and letting a new shooter in can be something good. When he goes back to his normal group he can brag about how good you guys really are and that the 48 up score was solid and amazing to watch instead of the normal they are just cheating.





Padgett said:


> Almost everytime I go to a new local shoot just out of my area and put up a strong score people look at me like I am a cheater, it is just part of getting your face out there. Usually the minute I speak up and there is a asa shooter in the area they will speak up for me and say that is Socket Man on archery talk and then things are good. I have had a local tournament look me in the face and say that my score was impossible and throw it in the trash. We kept going back even though we didn't want to and things are better now.


Agreed. There was a time I shot BHFS in spots and was averaging between 57-59 X's in big tournaments. I went to a local IBO shoot (center 11's) where they had about every "hunter" stake set between 17 and 27 yards with a few a bit longer and some tiny novelty targets. It was a flat, open and easy course. I shot with two club that I had not met previously. One wrote the score and the other called the score. I shot about 12 or 13 up on 25 targets. In my opinion not a real high score for how short and easy it was. I won the class. As I was handed the little trophy someone in a group of men shouted "no way, not on this course!" and about exploded. I shouted back "grab your bow and your wallet and let's go!". It almost got ugly.........but I walked away. Later I was told some folks took up for me. I didn't go back for a few years because I was angry.

After that incident I always shot a "fun" round unless I was shooting with strangers which at the time was easy to do. Now I absolutely don't care what other folks say or do at local shoots. I had two different guys ask me last year how can it be that I shoot better at the national shoots than I do locally. I told them that it is because at the local shoots "learning and practicing" and at the big tournaments I am working to maximize my score for the weekend. There is a big difference between training to compete at a high level and working to maximize your score. I work to win the state championship and for the VAC Championship belt buckle!

Most cheaters crash and burn fairly quickly even if THEY don't realize it! I think cheating is still rampant at local shoots but I'll bet the guys that are shooting grade A scores regularly in the higher classes at different ranges around the area aren't cheating. If someone pretty much avoids shooting with other good shooters be suspicious! That is the biggest tell...........but if they do shoot with strangers and crash do NOT assume they normally cheat!!!!! All of us shoot well below or well above our average sometimes!! I'm fairly certain more "winners" are accused of cheating than that actually cheat.


----------



## Left I Dominant

Kstigall said:


> There in no such thing in the ASA! Bow Novice and Open C have very low requirements for being moved up. I have seen an accomplished IBO veteran start in a much lower class in the ASA. But Mike T. can't be expected to know every single good IBO archer by name!
> 
> 
> Below is copied directly from the ASA rules:
> 
> Open C is reserved for participants who shoot at the novice level with open equipment. At any point during the season that a competitor in Open C earns $400.00 or more they are required to compete in a higher Open class or Hunter.
> 
> Bow Novice is reserved for participants who are new to ASA competition, or that won less than $300.00 in prize money in this class in their most recent year of ASA Pro/Am competition. At any point during the season that a competitor in this class earns more than $300.00 they are required to compete in a higher class.
> 
> I guess you could "sandbag" and only win a little bit each year in a "novice" class but I wouldn't go bragging about it to anyone that knows even a little about the ASA! Only a sad sack would sandbag a novice class to win a few hundred dollars _before _expenses. I expect some of the guys that say or act like they are sandbagging really aren't sandbagging.......they actually are not good enough to win out!!!



LMAO, $300 in a year you have to move up. There are about , what , 120+ Novice shooters. Unless you shoot 20+ up and go to every Shoot . you can stay Novice forever.


----------



## Padgett

Um, what is wrong with staying in a class where you enjoy shooting. I started in open b and moved on and now am semi pro but every year I talk to a couple guys that are still in open b when I see them at the asa tournaments that I shot with that first year. They love shooting and competing and maybe some day we can be in a group together again. One of my favorite faces to see on the course is Richard Teasley, I think the first time I shot with him was in a team shoot the year he shot the bow novice class and he has progressed up through the classes and is now with me in the semi pro class. We have ran into each other from time to time and been on the same stake and every time I shoot with him I can see him get progressively better.


----------



## Padgett

By the way, Just because I am a semi pro doesn't mean that I believe I could drop down and shoot open b or open a or open c and just win the class. To win a asa class you have to have a really solid weekend and do something special, I do think that if I dropped down that my years of experience would give me a really solid chance to shoot a very competitive score but the open b guys that are on the podium are really solid shooters.


----------



## cath8r

Speed up the game and help limit potential cheating by doing away with binos. Also no electronics.


----------



## psehoghunter

No known clases/range finders lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## bhtr3d

Padgett said:


> By the way, Just because I am a semi pro doesn't mean that I believe I could drop down and shoot open b or open a or open c and just win the class. To win a asa class you have to have a really solid weekend and do something special, I do think that if I dropped down that my years of experience would give me a really solid chance to shoot a very competitive score but the open b guys that are on the podium are really solid shooters.


Ya....but your scores /placement is high in semi too....lol


----------



## bhtr3d

Left I Dominant said:


> LMAO, $300 in a year you have to move up. There are about , what , 120+ Novice shooters. Unless you shoot 20+ up and go to every Shoot . you can stay Novice forever.


There is policing your own ....your state director can flag someone. ...and it goes up from there.....but then again....I dont.know anything about asa.....


----------



## carlosii

bhtr3d said:


> ....but then again....I dont.know anything about asa.....


.

Really? You're one of my go-to guys for ASA info.
Modesty becomes you about like a tutu would.
But that's just MHO.


----------



## shootstraight

Left I Dominant said:


> LMAO, $300 in a year you have to move up. There are about , what , 120+ Novice shooters. Unless you shoot 20+ up and go to every Shoot . you can stay Novice forever.


For what it's worth, some would argue that if you can't shoot 20 up over 40 targets at 30 max known distance you are a novice.


----------



## nochance

shootstraight said:


> For what it's worth, some would argue that if you can't shoot 20 up over 40 targets at 30 max known distance you are a novice.


Good point!


----------



## dirtruch

Do away with binoculars. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UncleBear63

Simple fix: less rules but personally(you) enforce the one's we have. You can't make enough rules. ASA or IBO are not the cops.....we are .....you may not like it but think about!


----------



## Padgett

I don't understand how getting rid of binoculars helps with cheating, so how are people cheating with them?


----------



## Left I Dominant

Padgett said:


> Um, what is wrong with staying in a class where you enjoy shooting. I started in open b and moved on and now am semi pro but every year I talk to a couple guys that are still in open b when I see them at the asa tournaments that I shot with that first year. They love shooting and competing and maybe some day we can be in a group together again. One of my favorite faces to see on the course is Richard Teasley, I think the first time I shot with him was in a team shoot the year he shot the bow novice class and he has progressed up through the classes and is now with me in the semi pro class. We have ran into each other from time to time and been on the same stake and every time I shoot with him I can see him get progressively better.


Whats the matter with Sandbagging? If you want to shoot Novice for years and years because shooting 20+ up against true Novices does the Ego good?


----------



## Kstigall

Left I Dominant said:


> LMAO, $300 in a year you have to move up. There are about , what , 120+ Novice shooters. Unless you shoot 20+ up and go to every Shoot . you can stay Novice forever.


So? What is your point? If an archer is incapable of meeting the meager standard forcing them to move out of Open C or BowNovice then their level of performance is very much that of a beginner. You are not a sandbagger if you are not actually capable of doing better. Just because someone _says _ they could have "won out" of a class if they wanted to do so doesn't make them a sandbagger. It most often an excuse for not winning out. In the beginner classes there are many more guys that can't win out saying they could if they wanted to than guys that could win out and choose not to do so.

The top 11 guys in Open C won _over _$300 at the 2015 Kentucky Pro/Am last year. There were 250 shooters in the class. If someone "wins" $150 bucks they aren't making any money after expenses! 

LMAO, if you think guys are making any real money "sandbagging" in Open C by staying in that class_ "forever"_ you don't know much about the game! I know guys coming into the ASA are basically scamming fellow archers by starting out in Open C or Bow Novice but they damn sure aren't staying in the novice class "forever"! These guys that come from say a much higher level class in the IBO and shoot in a ASA novice class expose their true character to the world........ There is a reason there isn't a SOY in the novice classes.


----------



## Kstigall

Left I Dominant said:


> Whats the matter with Sandbagging? If you want to shoot Novice for years and years because shooting 20+ up against true Novices does the Ego good?


It is NOT sandbagging if you can NOT win out!!! Those guys you see winning a little each year are trying their best to win it all. A true sandbagger is a very skilled archer that betrays himself as not being very skilled. A skilled archer that does not know that he is all that skilled compared to others is NOT sandbagging. He's inexperienced and/or has a serious lack of confidence.


----------



## grantmac

All marked yardage, inside-out scoring and minimum 0.250" arrow diameter. 

Same goes for all competitive archery IMHO.

Grant


----------



## cschwanz

The way to limit cheating in any sport is to enforce the rules against it and have the punishments be stiff enough the risk doesn't outweigh the reward. New rules wont help. I've not shot much 3D but i do compete in plenty of other shooting sports with firearms and the rules list is always lengthy. Most everything you can think of is covered. Just ENFORCE whats there and the problem will dwindle. It will never be gone because someone always thinks its worth it though...


----------



## carlosii

cschwanz said:


> The way to limit cheating in any sport is to enforce the rules against it and have the punishments be stiff enough the risk doesn't outweigh the reward. New rules wont help. I've not shot much 3D but i do compete in plenty of other shooting sports with firearms and the rules list is always lengthy. Most everything you can think of is covered. Just ENFORCE whats there and the problem will dwindle. It will never be gone because someone always thinks its worth it though...


True, but it comes down to WHO is going to be doing the enforcing. Too many folks are unwilling to call out the cheater, for whatever reason.


----------



## Kstigall

grantmac said:


> All marked yardage, inside-out scoring and minimum 0.250" arrow diameter.
> 
> Same goes for all competitive archery IMHO.
> 
> Grant


I don't see how ANY of the things you mentioned would "change" anything. I expect I am not understanding your reasons behind the recommendations you have posted.

The number one way people cheat is by entering a higher score on the card than what is actually shot. This is accomplished in a number of ways with "calling" a false score being number one such as saying an arrow is touching the line when it clearly is not. Inside/out scoring would mean people would argue their arrow is NOT touching rather than arguing that it IS touching. The only thing inside/out scoring would do is lower scores over all making the best archers further ahead of the next group.

How would having all "marked yardage" improve anything? What is the problem with having some unmarked distance classes?

.250" arrow minimum size? I'm assuming that you meant max size. Whether it is .250" or .423" isn't really relevant because those of us that are really into the game will use arrows that are best for scoring in that game. In other words we'd still be ahead of the guy that picks up his hunting bow and shoots an occasional 3D shoot. I'd be fine with a lower max arrow size but I do understand why the manufacturers support different sizes for different games. But I don't think having a smaller max size arrow for 3D would have any kind of real impact on the game.




carlosii said:


> True, but it comes down to WHO is going to be doing the enforcing. Too many folks are unwilling to call out the cheater, for whatever reason.


I know for a fact "calling out" an "issue" can be stressful, distracting, never enjoyable and all too often the caller ends up on the defensive even if he is absolutely correct! Rarely does a cheat go down without some kind of fight even if it's just claiming it was a simple mistake. Some big names in archery got busted back in the day and they went on to have tremendous financial support form the industry. Just look at the number of big names in the hunting industry that have been out right busted but still maintained major influence in the industry! Folks that cheat have no problem calling you a liar in private!


----------



## Padgett

For me it just comes down to putting my head on my pillow every night and being able to go to sleep. That is why I don't cheat.

I learned this lesson in High School, I was in a history class with lots of my friends and the future valedictorian of my class. My history teacher every test put the answer key on a stool up front and when you finished the test you went up and graded your own test. All year long I studied and and took the test and graded my test properly, the rest of the class waited until I was done and when I went up there they filled in the answers to their test.

These classmates have become doctors and lawyers and teachers and truck drivers and moms and dads and police officers and politicians. Many of them have made a small fortune and are very well off but I think the hardest thing for me to come to terms with is they put their head on their pillow and fall asleep perfectly happy just like I do. I just choose to not be a cheater.

Come to think of it I love cheaters, it is fun to beat a honest guy but when a cheater puts up a score that he thinks will win and I smoke the course and still kick his azz it just feels really freaking good.


----------



## grantmac

Kstigall said:


> I don't see how ANY of the things you mentioned would "change" anything. I expect I am not understanding your reasons behind the recommendations you have posted.
> 
> The number one way people cheat is by entering a higher score on the card than what is actually shot. This is accomplished in a number of ways with "calling" a false score being number one such as saying an arrow is touching the line when it clearly is not. Inside/out scoring would mean people would argue their arrow is NOT touching rather than arguing that it IS touching. The only thing inside/out scoring would do is lower scores over all making the best archers further ahead of the next group.
> 
> *Inside out scoring (possibly including an adjustment to the ring sizes) would make for a much cleaner picture for scoring purposes, this also goes with my last point on arrow diameter which I will explain below*
> 
> How would having all "marked yardage" improve anything? What is the problem with having some unmarked distance classes?
> 
> *I shoot predominantly unmarked due to lack of ASA here, I would however say that all marked yardage prevents the issues that we've seen with people sneaking RF binos onto the course. Heck it happened at the National level, you think it doesn't at the local one?
> *
> 
> .250" arrow minimum size? I'm assuming that you meant max size. Whether it is .250" or .423" isn't really relevant because those of us that are really into the game will use arrows that are best for scoring in that game. In other words we'd still be ahead of the guy that picks up his hunting bow and shoots an occasional 3D shoot. I'd be fine with a lower max arrow size but I do understand why the manufacturers support different sizes for different games. But I don't think having a smaller max size arrow for 3D would have any kind of real impact on the game.


With a switch to inside out scoring a large diameter arrow would now be a liability. In essence a thin arrow would benefit you so establishing a minimum diameter would avoid the use of X10 or Nano pro shafts and a hunting type shaft will be pretty competitive.
How this helps for scoring is people will shoot for either the center of the 10 or center of the 12 rather than the crease between. I find that having a lot of large arrows in the target is a large contributer to challenging line calls and possible cheating.

I honestly believe that all target archery would benefit from inside out scoring since the same arrows would be competitive indoors and out for a wider variety of games. I guess I'm always thinking of the recreational archer who wants to compete with one setup.

You are right that nothing will keep a cheater honest, but we can make mistakes harder to make and so less likely to be a valid excuse.

Grant 

Arrow diameter ties in with inside out scoring. As it currently stands


----------



## Kstigall

grantmac said:


> With a switch to inside out scoring a large diameter arrow would now be a liability. In essence a thin arrow would benefit you so establishing a minimum diameter would avoid the use of X10 or Nano pro shafts and a hunting type shaft will be pretty competitive.
> How this helps for scoring is people will shoot for either the center of the 10 or center of the 12 rather than the crease between. I find that having a lot of large arrows in the target is a large contributer to challenging line calls and possible cheating.
> 
> I honestly believe that all target archery would benefit from inside out scoring since the same arrows would be competitive indoors and out for a wider variety of games. I guess I'm always thinking of the recreational archer who wants to compete with one setup.
> 
> You are right that nothing will keep a cheater honest, but we can make mistakes harder to make and so less likely to be a valid excuse.
> 
> Grant
> 
> Arrow diameter ties in with inside out scoring. As it currently stands


But the changes you suggest wouldn't increase the ability of the recreational archer to compete against those that work hard at the game. By essentially decreasing the size of the "bullseye" by using inside/out scoring you are actually making it harder for the recreational archer to compete with the harder working more skilled archer. I am certain that narrowly defining arrow diameters and essentially decreasing the size of the 12 ring would not improve the ability of casual archers to compete against those that put much more time, money and effort into the game. 

I know that the best target archers (including 3D archers) around here win the local "hunting set ups only" tournament every year. Around here ALL of the very best 3D'ers are also very dedicated bow hunters. The ones I know are more committed to bow hunting than any kind of competition archery. The guys I'm talking about have won world and national tournaments of all kinds at the amateur AND Pro levels. They'd all throw their target rigs in the garbage before hanging up their hunting rigs! The guys winning in BowHunter class with special rigs would still win if everyone used identical rigs. Jesse Broadwater won K50 in Foley shooting X-10's......


----------



## Huntinsker

Cut off their fingers. Start with the pinky of course so they could still use a release but they'd surely think about it the next time they wanted to cheat again. 

Seriously though, cheaters are going to cheat. No way to stop them except catching them and kicking them out.


----------



## Padgett

I wish that on the 12 ring we could make a material that was flexible and really tough that was sitting in the groove or line of the 12 ring so that when you shot the arrow would either end up inside the little flexible ring or on the outside of the little flexible ring. 

In fact they could be made out of chicken wire and totally disposable and every trip to the target your group replaced the one in the target with a new one. They could make the little rings so that the two tag ends stuck out about a half inch and stuck into the target easily. 

1. Arrow is either inside or it is not inside, if the arrow is on the outside and it is touching the wire it is still a 10. 

2. If you hit the wire and cut the wire in half you get a 12. 

3. If you hit the wire and push the wire into the hole that your arrow made when you pull that arrow the wire must be cut in half or it is a 10.

They could have little boxes of these little wire rings on the course and the arrow pullers job is to have a couple of them with them at all times and when a wire ring is bent or broken you simply put on a new one.


----------



## grantmac

Kstigall said:


> But the changes you suggest wouldn't increase the ability of the recreational archer to compete against those that work hard at the game. By essentially decreasing the size of the "bullseye" by using inside/out scoring you are actually making it harder for the recreational archer to compete with the harder working more skilled archer. I am certain that narrowly defining arrow diameters and essentially decreasing the size of the 12 ring would not improve the ability of casual archers to compete against those that put much more time, money and effort into the game.
> 
> I know that the best target archers (including 3D archers) around here win the local "hunting set ups only" tournament every year. Around here ALL of the very best 3D'ers are also very dedicated bow hunters. The ones I know are more committed to bow hunting than any kind of competition archery. The guys I'm talking about have won world and national tournaments of all kinds at the amateur AND Pro levels. They'd all throw their target rigs in the garbage before hanging up their hunting rigs! The guys winning in BowHunter class with special rigs would still win if everyone used identical rigs. Jesse Broadwater won K50 in Foley shooting X-10's......


I really don't give a lick about bowhunters to be honest, care even less about shooting a "hunting" bow for 3D. Really I feel there should be one single equipment class for compounds but that is a different story.

I'm talking about the recreational competitor who is 100% self funded but wants to be as competitive as possible in every venue. If the rules were arranged so that a single set of arrows was competitive for everything from outdoor target, to field, to indoor to 3D that cuts down on cost substantially. Not to mention basically needing a few bows setup at all times to shoot them.

As for smaller rings that is fine. You shoot for the middle of the one you know you can hit, not for the safe spot between them. Scores would be lower across all events but I don't see that as a problem.

One man's opinions which I highly doubt will ever matter against the lobbying of companies who make money selling arrows and bows.

Grant


----------



## reylamb

Left I Dominant said:


> At the big shoot in Pheinix City last year I was walking to the practice range and I saw a guy on a stool behind his truck writing numbers down from his cell phone in 2 columns. I had my own sight problem to straighten out and it didnt dawn on me what this guy was doing until I got to my day 1 Range a few minutes early and some guys were talking about someone pre ranging and then the light bulb went ON!
> There is a whole Family in my Town that travels to these big ASA events but never shoot locally because theyve been caught cheating so many times. We had someone follow them with a camera when they shot in a family group and snapped every target and they had added almost 30 points. They are wearing the Mathews shirt now and the guys son isnt shooting anymore because he blew his paw off playing with a GLOCK. This guy always wants to have a (shooting)group prayer too, lmao. Since this family is taking a camper to the ASA shoots and staying on site, it certainly gives one the opportunity to pre range.
> 
> Another issue is Career Novice Shooters. The ASA is saying '' We dont care who is a sandbagger, every bodies $$ is good at the ASA" . It gives the impression the ASA really doesn't care as much as you would hope they would on this issue. The goal is to WIN no matter what the means are and the ASA is saying thats OK, just dont be too obvious.


I think I know of whom you speak...except for the logos on the shirt....



Left I Dominant said:


> LMAO, $300 in a year you have to move up. There are about , what , 120+ Novice shooters. Unless you shoot 20+ up and go to every Shoot . you can stay Novice forever.


So....let them shoot novice forever....if they aren't winning, they are only donating anyway, what difference does it make....


----------



## nochance

Huntinsker said:


> Cut off their fingers. Start with the pinky of course so they could still use a release but they'd surely think about it the next time they wanted to cheat again.
> 
> Seriously though, cheaters are going to cheat. No way to stop them except catching them and kicking them out.


I was thinking a public beating.


----------



## Left I Dominant

Novice: a person who is new to the circumstances, work, etc., in which he or she is placed; beginner; tyro: Somebody needs to read the definition of " Novice" . Since the ASA and so many of its Members dont know what the word means. People take the ASA rules less seriously when the ASA doesnt know the definition of the Class. By only allowing Novice for 1 year it would send a message the ASA has at least some standards.


----------



## huteson2us2

94insideout said:


> i lived in washington a couple of years, shot indoors with some guys, they did not fare to well.....shot 3d with them and got pencil whipped by 40 points....competitive 3d is suspect i think, which is too bad...shot northwest shoot up, very well run, high quality competition and integrity, but not 3D.


I lived in Washington State for 50 years while shooting. That is why I still will not take 3D seriously. Single score cards. Telling family and friends the distances. Shoot with family or friends on first day. Skipping targets because too many people lined up to shoot but giving themselves 12s for the target. When I helped run 3D shoots for our club in Washington, I caught people pacing off the targets at night. 

Now when I moved to AZ, I was shocked to see that all rules are followed just like a real tournament. I only wished that I had lived here longer.


----------



## shootstraight

Left I Dominant said:


> Novice: a person who is new to the circumstances, work, etc., in which he or she is placed; beginner; tyro: Somebody needs to read the definition of " Novice" . Since the ASA and so many of its Members dont know what the word means. People take the ASA rules less seriously when the ASA doesnt know the definition of the Class. By only allowing Novice for 1 year it would send a message the ASA has at least some standards.


On this we agree, it is for the most part, not a novice class. I personally think that not scoring a twelve ring in novice would change that class to what it is meant to be.


----------



## Left I Dominant

??or make a rule where you shoot 200 or over at 30 yards known, pack your bags ..your moving to Hunter or Open C aka K40. If you can keep em in the 10 ring at 30 yards, your not a Novice anymore. Your Rookie Season is over, your Cherry's been popped in a manner of speaking, now unplug the D - Bag nozzle and grow a pair ,also in a manner of speaking


----------



## carlosii

I shot Novice a couple times. Some other geezers I shot the team shoot with encouraged me to join them in Super Seniors...away I went and never looked back. Too much fun shooting with people I have somehting in common with.


----------



## Left I Dominant

I mean just think of it? ASA World Novice Champion, too funny!


----------



## Bazzer

Wow, I had no idea that there was so much cheating going on. I'm lucky I guess, I'm over seventy and few others in my class which is Bowhunter Freestyle. Some shoots I'm the only one in it so I can only cheat against myself. I only compete for fun and to camp at a few new places.


Fly fishing guide. Archery is a passion. Shooting Elite E35 with VAP's I like to shoot in Northern California club comps in the bowhunter freestyle as a master senior.


----------



## carlosii

Left I Dominant said:


> I mean just think of it? ASA World Novice Champion, too funny!


At least they do not crown them as Shooter of the Year.


----------



## Left I Dominant

They should just eliminate' NOVICE Class' at the Big ASA Events . Novices should to get their cherries popped at the Local ASA style local Club Shoots. Once they feel comfortable at Hunter or Open C then go to the Big Shows. I cant believe Manufacturers have Novice Staff Shooters, too funny.


----------



## nochance

Bazzer said:


> Wow, I had no idea that there was so much cheating going on. I'm lucky I guess, I'm over seventy and few others in my class which is Bowhunter Freestyle. Some shoots I'm the only one in it so I can only cheat against myself. I only compete for fun and to camp at a few new places.


Some cheating going on, many think if they get beat then someone must have cheated


----------



## ZombieHead77

Let the top 5 shooters in each class have a shoot off to actually see who is good, and not pencil pushers. Today I saw a heavy pencil pusher today shooting at a club before I left and he shot 8s and 5s and the first few targets and I'm sure there now 10s and 12s.


----------



## 573mms

ZombieHead77 said:


> Let the top 5 shooters in each class have a shoot off to actually see who is good, and not pencil pushers. Today I saw a heavy pencil pusher today shooting at a club before I left and he shot 8s and 5s and the first few targets and I'm sure there now 10s and 12s.


I wish all 3D shoots would go to this. There is a couple guys in Missouri that has been caught numerous times and they act or honestly believe no body knows. It's unbelievable they can shoot 30 up if they keep there own score card. But if they shoot with a group that keeps their card they shoot 20 down and are just having a bad day! I think both these guys could pencil whip Levi Morgan and then give him pointers and never crack a smile. Both these guys are ASA guys and never do any good there. But 1 is supposedly one of Levi's buddies that's all he talks about and is shooting Levi's OPA shoot.


----------



## carlosii

nochance said:


> Some cheating going on, many think if they get beat then someone must have cheated


If I win its for sure someone is cheating!


----------



## cjschll

Only way that cheating will stop is if have an official scorer go around with you. The big shoots already do that but the local shoots is all trust 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## Kstigall

Left I Dominant said:


> They should just eliminate' NOVICE Class' at the Big ASA Events . Novices should to get their cherries popped at the Local ASA style local Club Shoots. Once they feel comfortable at Hunter or Open C then go to the Big Shows. I cant believe Manufacturers have Novice Staff Shooters, too funny.


I respectfully disagree. Actually I greatly disagree!

As far as manufacturers having "novice" staff shooters. I can about guarantee any _real _"manufacturer staff shooter" shooting a novice class is a true novice. More than likely the archer is NOT a "manufacturer staff shooter". The vast majority of "staff shooters" buy their own shooters and all their gear. About anyone can be a "staff shooter" by signing a piece of paper but all you get is 10% off product. The vast majority of the folks wearing "staff shooter" shirts are what is referred to as "field staff" and are definitely NOT Factory Staff shooters or a factory representative. Though I could see an employee in say accounting being "Factory Staff" and shooting in a novice class.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Left I Dominant said:


> Novice: a person who is new to the circumstances, work, etc., in which he or she is placed; beginner; tyro: Somebody needs to read the definition of " Novice" . Since the ASA and so many of its Members dont know what the word means. People take the ASA rules less seriously when the ASA doesnt know the definition of the Class. By only allowing Novice for 1 year it would send a message the ASA has at least some standards.


I've been seeing you just about all over in AT. You sure pop off at the mouth a lot. People in Novice remain there because they aren't good enough to advance. Read the damn rule for winning out. Winning out doesn't necessarily mean moving up either.

From ASA rules; "Bow Novice is reserved for participants who are new to ASA competition, or that won less than $300.00 in prize money in this class in their most recent year of ASA. 
So the ASA is in fact following their own rule.....

Real pizzer, states have imposed rules far different governing Novice classes. Some have where you don't even win and have to move out. One person won by default at a State Championship, won $23 and was to be moved out (I stopped it through Federation President LD Falks). That state championship had 44 total contestants. For this person it was the first time he ever placed and to this day has never placed again. He has moved up on his own though.
States imposed their rule through wanting to stop sandbaggers. Sandbaggers in sandbox class? And then any rule change wanted by states has to be approved by ASA Headquarters...

NFAA. There is no rule for amateurs to move out/up. You can shoot Adult Free Style from the time you can pick up a bow until you die. You don't have go by age.


----------



## Left I Dominant

yeah I do....and the rule..... the Novice rule is stupider than a bus full of 0bama Supporters. Its subjective, anyone in charge can make some arbitrary rule out of you A.. America has had a bad habit of picking stupid leaders over the last 24 years. You stopped a person being moved out of Novice class after that person shot several 3D tourneys? What's wrong with you? LMAO, you can shoot over 200 multiple times and never win the $300. If you can keep them in the 10 ring during a tourney, you not a Novice anymore. Its a freakin Joke.


----------



## Left I Dominant

iii


----------



## Left I Dominant

let me expand ere to make a point. Arresting people for not returning a VHS tape 14 years ago from a store that went out business 10 years ago is stupid. Not racially profiling Muslims or people of middle eastern descent at Airports, Train Stations, Subways, etc because it is racist is stupid. 
Having " Novice" being a Money class in the 1st place is stupid. Particularly on a local level. It encourages sandbagging. Give em a ribbon or a plaque . The payouts are laughingly small anyway. If you want to start shooting for $$$ you have to at least move up to Hunter or K40 aka Open C.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Left I Dominant said:


> yeah I do....and the rule..... the Novice rule is stupider than a bus full of 0bama Supporters. Its subjective, anyone in charge can make some arbitrary rule out of you A.. America has had a bad habit of picking stupid leaders over the last 24 years. You stopped a person being moved out of Novice class after that person shot several 3D tourneys? What's wrong with you?* LMAO, you can shoot over 200 multiple times and never win the $300.* If you can keep them in the 10 ring during a tourney, you not a Novice anymore. Its a freakin Joke.


Explain those that have won out of Novice..... Where was "keeping them in the 10 ring" noted? The ASA has several Open classes, Open C, B, A and then Semi Pro and Pro. If you can't win out of B and A? If you can't win out of Semi Pro?



Left I Dominant said:


> let me expand ere to make a point. Arresting people for not returning a VHS tape 14 years ago from a store that went out business 10 years ago is stupid. Not racially profiling Muslims or people of middle eastern descent at Airports, Train Stations, Subways, etc because it is racist is stupid.
> Having " Novice" being a Money class in the 1st place is stupid. Particularly on a local level. It encourages sandbagging. Give em a ribbon or a plaque . The payouts are laughingly small anyway. If you want to start shooting for $$$ you have to at least move up to Hunter or K40 aka Open C.


There is no point to explain. You go by the rules. Want to play FITA/NAA? You can't have a bow over 60 pounds. What you can't accept is every organization is different, has different rules. Many contestants are members of 3 organizations and more and you don't hear them complaining. If by ASA, IBO and NFAA there is 5 speed limits. NFAA, 300 fps. IBO, no speed, but a speed limit for those using arrows lighter than 5 grs per pound of draw weight. ASA, 280 fps for those shooting 40 yards and less and 290 fps for those shooting 45 yards and longer.


----------



## shootstraight

To me, ASA needs an entry level pin class. it makes sense to me to change Novice to Hunter B, make it a pin class, 30 yards known and do not score the 12 ring. Keep the same move up rules etc. That will move many of the guys coming in from IBO straight to Hunter A class (for the most part). A big complaint I hear from guys going in there who are below average shooters is that over half the field certainly aren't novice shooters. A name change would eliminate that quickly.


----------



## carlosii

shootstraight said:


> To me, ASA needs an entry level pin class. it makes sense to me to change Novice to Hunter B, make it a pin class, 30 yards known and do not score the 12 ring. Keep the same move up rules etc. That will move many of the guys coming in from IBO straight to Hunter A class (for the most part). A big complaint I hear from guys going in there who are below average shooters is that over half the field certainly aren't novice shooters. A name change would eliminate that quickly.


Interesting.

I don't really see ASA changing the Novice class. They've heard the complaints about it and continue to support it. They get the numbers so why should they change it?


----------



## bhtr3d

They have in the rules about policing your own....granted who wants to be the snitch....but also ya know when someone should not be shooting in a novice class.... 

AS a past director ..... I'll say it ... I have before policed my state ....I got labeled dictator kind of person....but ya have to stand up sometime ....rules are for all.... Not here but over here....


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin

Fat shaft vs. skinny shaft, lets take a .423 as my fat shaft and a .250 as my skinny for the sake of argument. .423" - .250" = .173" divided by 2 = .0865" that equals LESS than 1/10 of an inch if you measure from the center of your arrow to the outside edge of your arrow on a scoring ring. To me the advantage of a fat shaft is not nearly as big as it appears looking at the 2 shafts side by side. For me using a standard sized arrow with less size for less wind drift is more important than 1/10" in shaft size to possibly catch a line. But this post is about cheating, sorry to get off track.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin

cath8r said:


> Speed up the game and help limit potential cheating by doing away with binos. Also no electronics.


So if we do away with binos then we need to do away with glasses because glasses can give you an advantage over the next guy !!!! Binos just equalize the field for everyone. JMO


----------



## psehoghunter

Make oc and novice trophy only classes....?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## bhtr3d

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> So if we do away with binos then we need to do away with glasses because glasses can give you an advantage over the next guy !!!! Binos just equalize the field for everyone. JMO


That is one of the preposterous statement I read lately


----------



## Kstigall

shootstraight said:


> To me, ASA needs an entry level pin class. it makes sense to me to change Novice to Hunter B, make it a pin class, 30 yards known and do not score the 12 ring. Keep the same move up rules etc. That will move many of the guys coming in from IBO straight to Hunter A class (for the most part). A big complaint I hear from guys going in there who are below average shooters is that over half the field certainly aren't novice shooters. A name change would eliminate that quickly.


Exactly! All that needs to be done is to rename the class so the word "novice" is no longer in the title. If you are a true beginner then you shouldn't expect to "win" anything initially. I think the real "problem" is not that some folks stay in Bow Novice but that occasionally an experienced and quality archer, like an IBO shooter, steps into the ASA in Bow Novice or Open C. If a friend of mine tried that I'd bust on him big time in person, in front of others AND on the internet!

In my very first ASA and IBO shoots I competed in Hunter (ASA) and Advanced Hunter (IBO) definitely not because I had a fair of amount of 3D experience but because I certainly wasn't a "novice". But that is me and I understand perfectly if someone else with a similar background started in a novice class. Personally, I had zero interest in winning out of a novice class or even flat out winning a novice class. I'm always baffled when I see a talented IBO archer come into the ASA in a class well below where they have already been successful in the IBO. I know exactly why they do it and it is odd behavior for a normal adult.


----------



## Fire Archer

tmorelli said:


> I think I put my thoughts on this pointless thread months ago but basically....
> 
> 1. Judging is a dying art. The vast majority of hunters rely on a RF.
> 
> 2. Being competitive at high level unknown distance is a rich man's game. You must own the targets, have a place to put them and a job that allows the opportunity to study them.
> 
> 3. The VAST majority or all of the cheating issues are gone if the game is known distance. Binos, stepping off targets, gapping, etc.... virtually every AT gripe thread goes void. Though I'll say most are just whiners anyway.
> 
> 4. If the game is known, it doesn't matter nearly so much what the targets are.... think Redding with or without dots as you please.
> 
> 5. Unicron obviously isn't "from around here." He's talking about novelty shoot junk....
> 
> 6. I'm not saying do away with known; I'm calling for a changing of the guard. Known should be the primary pro class and primary trail of developmental classes. Like it or not, the day is coming for all the reasons above (primarily target associated costs) IMO, the sooner, the better.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


If you want to see a major decline in attendance, then do away with the unknown yardage classes. I bet Levi and all the top Pros that shoot unknown would never be in favor of getting rid of it either. Go ahead and say that if there was the same amount of money in known as unknown then they would shoot it. That's a complete farce because if they all liked known so well, they would all jump ship and shoot known which would be more money to win, considering the ones that are already there. Furthermore, If I wanted to shoot known distance all the time, I would just stand out in my yard and shoot. What would be the difference? Different terrain and layouts of the courses with unknown yardage is what I always enjoyed about 3D archery. It makes it more challenging, more fun. 
I guess the MLB should do away with pitchers too. Just put a pitching machine out there so everybody can hit the ball. Can't have an unknown pitch coming at ya and don't want to practice hitting. Let's just do away with all the unknowns so everyone can succeed.
If a 180" buck walks out in front of you and your battery is dead in your RF, then you aren't going to be able to shoot since you have no clue how far it is? Basically, judging yardage is another aspect of the game that requires practice and lord knows nobody wants to practice anything. Why don't ya just give out participation trophies to everyone in every class too.
As far as cheating, everyone enforce the rules we have. If someone gets caught then they are barred for a minimum of 5 years. All organizations should honor each others suspensions. If you get caught cheating in IBO and get barred then you are barred in ASA, NFAA, etc.


----------



## Garceau

Fire Archer said:


> If you want to see a major decline in attendance, then do away with the unknown yardage classes. I bet Levi and all the top Pros that shoot unknown would never be in favor of getting rid of it either. Go ahead and say that if there was the same amount of money in known as unknown then they would shoot it. That's a complete farce because if they all liked known so well, they would all jump ship and shoot known which would be more money to win, considering the ones that are already there. Furthermore, If I wanted to shoot known distance all the time, I would just stand out in my yard and shoot. What would be the difference? Different terrain and layouts of the courses with unknown yardage is what I always enjoyed about 3D archery. It makes it more challenging, more fun.
> I guess the MLB should do away with pitchers too. Just put a pitching machine out there so everybody can hit the ball. Can't have an unknown pitch coming at ya and don't want to practice hitting. Let's just do away with all the unknowns so everyone can succeed.
> If a 180" buck walks out in front of you and your battery is dead in your RF, then you aren't going to be able to shoot since you have no clue how far it is? Basically, judging yardage is another aspect of the game that requires practice and lord knows nobody wants to practice anything. Why don't ya just give out participation trophies to everyone in every class too.
> As far as cheating, everyone enforce the rules we have. If someone gets caught then they are barred for a minimum of 5 years. All organizations should honor each others suspensions. If you get caught cheating in IBO and get barred then you are barred in ASA, NFAA, etc.


Except the OPA (Levi's and a few other pros own association) shoot will be known yardage - so not sure that theory holds water.

Tony is connected with that crew - I think he has some idea of what he is talking about. He was a Known shooter, whom made the switch to unknown, so he isn't saying this to support his own agenda.


----------



## Fire Archer

Garceau said:


> Except the OPA (Levi's and a few other pros own association) shoot will be known yardage - so not sure that theory holds water.
> 
> Tony is connected with that crew - I think he has some idea of what he is talking about. He was a Known shooter, whom made the switch to unknown, so he isn't saying this to support his own agenda.


 You are right about the OPA but I read somewhere that it would start out as known yardage and transform into a bigger platform including unknown yardage. Everyone knows why it is known yardage and if you dont just look at the invitation list. There are several big name dot shooters on there that would've never even thought about attending had it been unknown yardage. It's for publicity.
There is a lot of guys/gals that only shoot ASA but yet the unknown classes are still, by far, the largest classes. If known is so great then why doesn't everyone load it up at the ASA events? 
I still can't grasp how known yardage will solve all the cheating problems. How will known yardage stop the fact that IBO lets Buddy shoot with Buddy at the National events? That is where the majority of the cheating happens. I had a guy tell me one time that you could go to an IBO National event, enter into an amateur class, not shoot 75% of the targets and win the event. I thought about it and it could happen pretty easily since they allow you to shoot with your buddies all the time. If you think it can't then you are only fooling yourselves. 
It just seems that it is the American way these days that if something doesn't go our way we want to change it to better suit us. Nobody wants to put forth the effort to improve their game, they want the game to come to them. At the end of the day, even with known yardage, somebody isn't going to do well and still want participation trophies.


----------



## Garceau

man....I don't know. I am not a huge fan of known. But your statement above is just a little off.

I went to ASA site and pulled the numbers. Admittedly I don't know all the classes and some I have no idea if they are half/half or what. But will post what I do know. Will try to list them to comparible

Bow Novice = 126 shooters all known
Hunter = 44 (no idea how they break theirs down, don't feel like looking)

K45 = 169 shooters all known
Open B = 113 half/half

K50 = 112 shooters all known
Semi Pro = 75
Open Pro = 53

Open A = 91

Senior Known = 94
Senior open = 66

Womens K40 = 73
Womens K45 = 21

Womens open A = 20

Seems to me if Known isn't a bigger portion it will be very soon....... again, I didn't go through them all. Open A really doesn't have anything to compare to but I left it up there.


----------



## Halfcawkt

New to this, so bare with me. I shoot a naked recurve, so you could tell me the perfect yardage and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. All of my practice is unknown. I think it's great there is a choice, though. I do find myself in the no bino camp mostly. I don't use them. It's part of the fun.

I've only shot indoor league so far. So I have no experience at a "shoot". Read this whole tread yesterday, and was left with questions.

What is line pulling? I think I got it, but want to be clear.

I don't hate binos, but guys that use them wait till it's their turn at the line to even touch them. It just seems to waste everyone's time. If guys are good enough to judge range with them, it doesn't hurt my feelings. That doesn't violate any rules I know of. I would like them to do it before hitting the line, holding everyone up. Someone said make the rings visible. I like that idea. It makes the binos unnecessary. 

I like the wire ring idea too. No fighting over who scored what. It works for darts, and it's in or it's not. Scoring judges at targets seems to be the best way to preserve the integrity of the tally. I do feel it is the responsibility of the governing body to insure fairness in anything bigger than a club shoot.

For the record... I have never owned a range finder. If hunting with someone that does, I make them wait till after the kill to tell me.


----------



## bhtr3d

Garceau said:


> Tony is connected with that crew - I think he has some idea of what he is talking about. He was a Known shooter, whom made the switch to unknown, so he isn't saying this to support his own agenda.


I know you don't know...but tony been around a while.....he was an unknown shooter....then went a little lost but came back....


----------



## Kstigall

Fire Archer said:


> If you want to see a major decline in attendance, then do away with the unknown yardage classes. I bet Levi and all the top Pros that shoot unknown would never be in favor of getting rid of it either. Go ahead and say that if there was the same amount of money in known as unknown then they would shoot it. That's a complete farce because if they all liked known so well, they would all jump ship and shoot known which would be more money to win, considering the ones that are already there. Furthermore, If I wanted to shoot known distance all the time, I would just stand out in my yard and shoot. What would be the difference? Different terrain and layouts of the courses with unknown yardage is what I always enjoyed about 3D archery. It makes it more challenging, more fun.
> I guess the MLB should do away with pitchers too. Just put a pitching machine out there so everybody can hit the ball. Can't have an unknown pitch coming at ya and don't want to practice hitting. Let's just do away with all the unknowns so everyone can succeed.
> If a 180" buck walks out in front of you and your battery is dead in your RF, then you aren't going to be able to shoot since you have no clue how far it is? Basically, judging yardage is another aspect of the game that requires practice and lord knows nobody wants to practice anything. Why don't ya just give out participation trophies to everyone in every class too.
> As far as cheating, everyone enforce the rules we have. If someone gets caught then they are barred for a minimum of 5 years. All organizations should honor each others suspensions. If you get caught cheating in IBO and get barred then you are barred in ASA, NFAA, etc.


You are out of touch with the Pro's. The archers that are well connected within the industry and Levi is one of them would compete in Known distance if the unknown class was eliminated. The vast majority enjoy competing and enjoy archery neither of which would change if they used range finders. It is also well understood that most Pro's and other accomplished unknown distance 3D'ers would rather shoot unknown distance. Unknown distance 3D definitely has a major element that Known distance 3D does not have. I shot K45 when the 14's were in play and when they were taken out of play a BIG piece of the "energy" left with it. 

By the way, Morelli _prefers _ unknown distance 3D. He also won Open A SOY last year and I'm expecting he'll be competitive in the Open Pro class next year.


----------



## Garceau

bhtr3d said:


> I know you don't know...but tony been around a while.....he was an unknown shooter....then went a little lost but came back....


Huh? You have no idea what I don't know !

I don't either.

But I know all about Tony doing very well, then taking some time off and coming back and dominating K45. Then doing pretty darn good in open A last year.


----------



## Fire Archer

Kstigall said:


> You are out of touch with the Pro's. The archers that are well connected within the industry and Levi is one of them would compete in Known distance if the unknown class was eliminated. The vast majority enjoy competing and enjoy archery neither of which would change if they used range finders. It is also well understood that most Pro's and other accomplished unknown distance 3D'ers would rather shoot unknown distance. Unknown distance 3D definitely has a major element that Known distance 3D does not have. I shot K45 when the 14's were in play and when they were taken out of play a BIG piece of the "energy" left with it.
> 
> By the way, Morelli _prefers _ unknown distance 3D. He also won Open A SOY last year and I'm expecting he'll be competitive in the Open Pro class next year.


I am not taking anything away from TMorelli but he is basically saying the sooner they get rid of unknown, the better. He gave his opinions and I have given mine. I don't personally know him but I do know he is a successful archer. Maybe the Pros have changed the last couple of years but it wasnt long ago they were complaining about the known classes. Why can't there be the best of both worlds? I agree with him that to compete at the highest level you must have deep pockets. I have shot SPM and learned that pretty quick. But I didn't run crying to everyone to change the game so that I can play too. Just like I said, maybe the MLB should get rid of pitchers so that everyone can hit the pitching machine and bat .750. It is a "hooray for me and screw everyone else" world these days.


----------



## nochance

usually the unknown guys want to get rid of known, now the known guys want to get rid of unknown. Why cant we have both?


----------



## tmorelli

Just FYI....the quote Fire Archer dug up for me... I can't say I fully agree with myself there. That was a long time ago and while I'd call some of those things "fact", my opinions surrounding them have changed. 

I was part of the voice advocating known (pro) specifically. Now, I'd say there are plenty of known distance games to play, and only one unknown. Leave it as is. If you want to be the best, beat the best...at all elements of the game. Not just some of them. Yes, it makes it an elite crowd, perhaps a rich man's sport, but I'm ok with that. It should be elite, it should be limited. It's pro at shooting rubber critters.

I still believe that the pros will shoot wherever you put the money. As will several others....look at some who've signed up for OPA and those who flocked to k50. There are plenty who have never cashed a check in any class that went just to be part of the hype. It bothers me to see what I think is money being blindly (or at least selfishly) thrown at k50 with a disregard to the long term impact it may have on our sport. 

That's all I'm typing with my thumbs.


----------



## Halfcawkt

[QUOTE=Halfcawkt;1088260690 Read this whole tread yesterday, and was left with questions.

What is line pulling? I think I got it, but want to be clear.

Thanks for your help guys.


----------



## Kstigall

nochance said:


> usually the unknown guys want to get rid of known, now the known guys want to get rid of unknown. Why cant we have both?


Exactly.

But over time I expect one will "win out" over the other and/or popularity could swing back and forth. Maybe Known continues to grow more popular but sooner or later people will start gravitating back towards unknown. I really don't have a dog in this fight either way.

There is no doubt the unknown distance 3D game is much more interesting than the known distance. But then again I thought having the 14 in play for the entire game made things a LOT more interesting. If I was was ten or so years younger I would be wanting a range out back and would be shooting an unknown distance class.


----------



## sagecreek

Judging is half the fun.

But, I'm OK with people shooting Known if they are not having fun guessing yardage. It's hard. That's for sure. I guess I like a challenge.


----------



## psehoghunter

sagecreek said:


> Judging is half the fun.
> 
> But, I'm OK with people shooting Known if they are not having fun guessing yardage. It's hard. That's for sure. I guess I like a challenge.


Me too 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## sagecreek

Only thing I know for sure about cheating, is that we have to enforce the rules already in play ourselves while on the course.


----------



## Fire Archer

sagecreek said:


> Only thing I know for sure about cheating, is that we have to enforce the rules already in play ourselves while on the course.


That would be the best thing to do but who does someone have to back them that would actually have the authority to do something about an incident? I have seen guys complain about different things and it was just brushed aside. While at a tent one day at Bedford, a guy came in complaining that a guy had a back bar while shooting HC when it was illegal to have any type of back bar and all that was said to him was to pay the money to protest it. That's a bunch of BS. The guy was completely illegal and should have been DQ'd on the spot but the IBO wanted him to pay the fee. It should have been handled right then and there as it was obvious his setup was against the rules. No investigation had to be done or anything. Another guy had a stab on the front that was probably 20" long at Erie one year and the protester got about the same runaround. Why does someone have to pay to protest something that is so obvious. Neither one of those guys should've been allowed on the course to start with.


----------



## carlosii

sagecreek said:


> Judging is half the fun.


And that means it is also half the misery. 

:lol3::lol3:


----------



## carlosii

Fire Archer said:


> That would be the best thing to do but who does someone have to back them that would actually have the authority to do something about an incident? I have seen guys complain about different things and it was just brushed aside. While at a tent one day at Bedford, a guy came in complaining that a guy had a back bar while shooting HC when it was illegal to have any type of back bar and all that was said to him was to pay the money to protest it. That's a bunch of BS. The guy was completely illegal and should have been DQ'd on the spot but the IBO wanted him to pay the fee. It should have been handled right then and there as it was obvious his setup was against the rules. No investigation had to be done or anything. Another guy had a stab on the front that was probably 20" long at Erie one year and the protester got about the same runaround. Why does someone have to pay to protest something that is so obvious. Neither one of those guys should've been allowed on the course to start with.


Agree total BS...but such things are not reserved to IBO. Happens in ASA as well. Range officials are usually pretty good about when something is brought to their attention, but no always.


----------



## sagecreek

carlosii said:


> And that means it is also half the misery.
> 
> :lol3::lol3:


Some days are better than others. lain:

Seriously though, 3D would not be fun to me if I had to shoot known distance all the time. :yawn:


----------



## nochance

Fire Archer said:


> shooting HC when it was illegal to have any type of back bar and all that was said to him was to pay the money to protest it. That's a bunch of BS. The guy was completely illegal and should have been DQ'd on the spot but the IBO wanted him to pay the fee. It should have been handled right then and there as it was obvious his setup was against the rules.


back bars have been legal for several years now as long as a single point of attachment. have you been to an ibo lately? No offense meant but i think they are changing, although it may be slow. groups have been split up at everyone I've been to and that seems to be a common theme among those that complain. Until there's a better show in town i'll still attend when i can.


----------



## Fire Archer

nochance said:


> back bars have been legal for several years now as long as a single point of attachment. have you been to an ibo lately? No offense meant but i think they are changing, although it may be slow. groups have been split up at everyone I've been to and that seems to be a common theme among those that complain. Until there's a better show in town i'll still attend when i can.


Back bars were illegal when this happened.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

this thread has circled the block and back and everything from cheating to whiners, stabs, known distance and so on. Some people have a problem and they are just jealous because someone shoots really well, shooting well and cheating are two totally different things. I personally feel that when a shooter is caught cheating(100% proof) their name should be posted on your results after the shoot is finished, if they choose to come back they will only be allowed to compete with another shooter that is approved by the club, if it is asa or ibo you will be banned for a time period of their choosing!


----------



## AR Archer

As long as the 3 "p's" are involved there will be cheating. People, pencil, and paper.


----------



## Steadyoutdoors

There are so many know it all in archery !!! Some of you have valid points most of you sound but hurt that you can't win a tourney . I work harder then everyone so even if you cheat I will still beat you. 



I think it should be mandatory for your equipment to be checked

And have to have two scorers

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fire Archer

3Dblackncamo said:


> this thread has circled the block and back and everything from cheating to whiners, stabs, known distance and so on. Some people have a problem and they are just jealous because someone shoots really well, shooting well and cheating are two totally different things. I personally feel that when a shooter is caught cheating(100% proof) their name should be posted on your results after the shoot is finished, if they choose to come back they will only be allowed to compete with another shooter that is approved by the club, if it is asa or ibo you will be banned for a time period of their choosing!


I agree, if you make examples out of them then the cheating would diminish quite a bit. I just can't believe people will stoop to that level just to win a few dollars or a $3 trophy. Sooner or later, you will be put in a position to where you have to prove your abilities and then it shows. Even if you would win every National tournament and the World in IBO, you probably aren't going to win enough to cover your entry fees, travel expenses and a dozen arrows. Much less your bow and the equipment you choose.


----------



## Halfcawkt

Guy, I'm still hoping someone can explain line pulling...


----------



## TMax27

Halfcawkt said:


> Guy, I'm still hoping someone can explain line pulling...


Line pulling is utilizing the abrasiveness of an arrow to pull a line to the arrow, in return scoring higher than what you would have scored if the arrow slid into the foam without deforming the target any. An arrow, most usually carbon in 3d, has grip to it that will deform the target by pushing the outside in, kinda like a belly button. You can 'pull' the line all day long, but unless the line actually touches the arrow it's still scored lower. I've looked for a good picture example but didn't find one.


----------



## sagecreek

Here you go, line pulling made simple.


----------



## nochance

Fire Archer said:


> Back bars were illegal when this happened.


That's my point, lets talk about recent history. I've seen guys in here saying they haven't shot an IBO in 5 years because of something that happened 7 years ago.


----------



## Fire Archer

nochance said:


> That's my point, lets talk about recent history. I've seen guys in here saying they haven't shot an IBO in 5 years because of something that happened 7 years ago.


My point is that it was illegal and brought to the attention of the IBO and they didn't issue any type of penalty or disqualify the person at fault for a rule infraction. It doesn't matter if it happened 20 years ago. The same people are running the show so nothing will change. Everyone says we have to police ourselves but there is no authority to back you up when you bring something to the attention of the IBO. Kind of like the game wardens in some counties of WV, they go out and catch poachers then the judges turn them loose without any punishment. Why make them aware of rule infractions when they are not going to do anything about it?


----------



## AlanCoderre

I don't think that there is anything that you can really do because a cheater is going to cheat. I think that the only thing that will help is for people to start acting like a mature adult an follow the rules that are already in place.


----------



## Milo357

sagecreek said:


> Judging is half the fun.
> 
> But, I'm OK with people shooting Known if they are not having fun guessing yardage. It's hard. That's for sure. I guess I like a challenge.


I will fully admit I am TERRIBLE at judging distance, so I always shoot known. But that doesn't necessarily mean your going to have an advantage. You still have to hit the stinking target!  I had a flat out awful time in Foley (shot an average of 30+ down from my normal). No one in my group could see what I was doing wrong. That said, shoot whatever class you want, you still have to score well to win. Knowing the distance guarantees nothing.


----------



## brtesite

Daniel Boone said:


> Know some don't like to discuss it but we all know it happens.:angry:
> 
> Recently got to disscussion with a very long time 3d pro. He opened my eyes to this. Told me stuff I never heard before and seems never gets told. Believe me It happens.
> 
> I have seen cheating ever year in some form and fashion ever year.:thumbs_do Was it last year they found a semi pro with range finder?
> 
> My thoughts on rules.
> 
> 
> Myself wonder is Bi-nos should be restricted or done away with for tournaments. Want to carry cards that fine.
> 
> No cell phones on range at all other than for emergency in pockets. Guys could be putting in range distances for buddies. So many ways to cheat with new apps all the time.
> 
> Thing that really ruins it for me is when the judges and assoc know it happening and ignores it. If you don't belong in Novice class they should enforce it.
> 
> Courses side by side you should skip a target between, one would have to be blind not to notice a targets the same distance or close if its 15 ft away from the target you shot.
> 
> No way anyone should choose who they shoot with it on national level event. Heck I don't think it should happen on local level. Local level shoot for fun if shooting with buddies.
> 
> Any way with new assoc started I wonder what rules you think would be beneficial to stop any form of cheating.
> 
> Cheating isn't just a 3d thing in archery. It happens on other venues and archery assoc as well.
> 
> 
> Try to discuss without name calling. Be adult, we all know it happens. If we want this sport to grow to what it can be all across the US. Rules must be set to insure fairness to all.


 As long as you have un marked yardages , you will never eliminate the cheating of the the distances. Mark them & that part of the problem goes away. Then you only have to solve the pencil pushing . dual score keepers would help that


----------



## psehoghunter

sagecreek said:


> Some days are better than others. lain:
> 
> Seriously though, 3D would not be fun to me if I had to shoot known distance all the time. :yawn:


X100000000

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## nochance

brtesite said:


> As long as you have un marked yardages , you will never eliminate the cheating of the the distances. Mark them & that part of the problem goes away. Then you only have to solve the pencil pushing . dual score keepers would help that


I have no problem with those that want to shoot known yardage but it sounds like you've had your butt beat badly in unknown. Most decent shoots small and large already have dual scorers.


----------



## brtesite

nochance said:


> I have no problem with those that want to shoot known yardage but it sounds like you've had your butt beat badly in unknown. Most decent shoots small and large already have dual scorers.


 no, I ve never been beaten at 3 d because I have never shot 3 d. How ever it has always been my contention in my 50 plus years of 
shooting that I wanted no variables, if I missed, I always knew it was me & believe me I have missed a few. I have shot field archery all of my life, & in the beginning the ranges were not marked. We had the same cry that the home club always had the advantage. After a while it got changed & that problem went away .
I know that there are some who are really good at judging using all the tricks that can be used & then there are some who have a built in excuse why they missed. What ever the case, as long as you are shooting archery, I guess it is a good thing.


----------



## dirtruch

Everyone should have to shoot with their grandmother. Who can cheat in front of their grandmother??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fire Archer

dirtruch said:


> Everyone should have to shoot with their grandmother. Who can cheat in front of their grandmother??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


About anybody that's willing to cheat without her being there. Cheating is in any type of competition a human being is a part of. I believe if you would make examples out of the ones that do get caught and suspend them for a year the first offense, then bar them for life the second offense and every form of archery out there recognizes the suspension, it would slow it down a bunch. Spread their name on all archery websites, put it in your yearbook if you have one. Make it known that there is zero tolerance for cheating. You will be banned from archery of any form and your name will be published if you get caught. There is a few things that could be done to slow it down but nobody wants to really enforce the means to do so because they think it will hurt attendance. I think attendance would pick back up because the ones that have had enough of the BS would come back and enjoy.


----------



## nochance

Don't just ban them, prosecute them. They're basically stealing, especially in the money classes. This is what fishing tournaments are doing now.


----------



## Ingo

I was just thinking about ways guys could cheat and one way I thought of was guys marking their binos discreetly so that when they are in focus the position of the focus knob could give them a reasonably accurate range. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Garceau

Ingo said:


> I was just thinking about ways guys could cheat and one way I thought of was guys marking their binos discreetly so that when they are in focus the position of the focus knob could give them a reasonably accurate range.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


That used to happen - now adays I don't see it a big deal. I think most can judge as accurately as that, was pretty prevelant in the late 90s hence the change in IBO magnification restrictions.

Take binos away and you give a huge advantage to the people that own ranges, I mean HUGE.


----------



## Ingo

Garceau said:


> That used to happen - now adays I don't see it a big deal. I think most can judge as accurately as that, was pretty prevelant in the late 90s hence the change in IBO magnification restrictions.
> 
> Take binos away and you give a huge advantage to the people that own ranges, I mean HUGE.


I guess the better your eyesight, the better this could work. 

What's the IBO magnification limit?



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Kstigall

Ingo said:


> I was just thinking about ways guys could cheat and one way I thought of was guys marking their binos discreetly so that when they are in focus the position of the focus knob could give them a reasonably accurate range.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


That is "old school" cheating. It's only useful for getting somewhat close which can help in the lower classes but at Open B or higher all that will do is help you avoid big uglies......it's not going to get you on the podium or even close to the podium. Keep in mind you have to mark your focus knob discreetly which mean you can't have a lot of detail marks which is what you really need.

- Etch marks on the lens can only get you somewhat close to the yardage.
- Etch marks in the sight window.
- Using lighter arrows to pick up 8 fps. There is very little difference between 303 fps and 295 fps if you misjudge a target by 2 yards at 35 yards.
- Counting a member of the previous groups steps to and from a target. 

All of the above are "old school" cheats and are of little or zero value unless you are really terrible at judging distance even in novice classes. Even then the above cheats are only useful for avoiding huge mistakes. there are many more "old school cheats" but they are even of less value with modern bows and the fact that you have to hit 12's or 11's to do any good. Back in the day when getting a 10 was very good and scores were lower in general a cheat that got you just close to the yardage was a help.

Pencil pushing and expanded scoring rings are really the only cheats you can rely on to move you up the standing.

IF cheating gets you to a level of being considered "pretty good" you will get discovered! I know of at least two guys locally that used out right pencil pushing to put up good scores...... At that point other honestly good archers began seeking them out to shoot with them and within weeks they had quit archery because of other "obligations".

Once I began putting up good scores folks asked to shoot with me. I knew what it was about but I ended up making friends and finding new shooting partners.

To the guys that cheat, it is highly unlikely that there aren't a number of "friends" and other archers that do NOT know that you cheat, fudge or stretch the truth to maintain your score. You aren't fooling anyone BUT yourself!


----------



## sagecreek

Kstigall said:


> ...
> 
> IF cheating gets you to a level of being considered "pretty good" you will get discovered! I know of at least two guys locally that used out right pencil pushing to put up good scores...... At that point other honestly good archers began seeking them out to shoot with them and within weeks they had quit archery because of other "obligations".
> 
> Once I began putting up good scores folks asked to shoot with me. I knew what it was about but I ended up making friends and finding new shooting partners.
> 
> To the guys that cheat, it is highly unlikely that there aren't a number of "friends" and other archers that do NOT know that you cheat, fudge or stretch the truth to maintain your score. You aren't fooling anyone BUT yourself!


Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Milo357

nochance said:


> I have no problem with those that want to shoot known yardage but it sounds like you've had your butt beat badly in unknown. Most decent shoots small and large already have dual scorers.


You jump to a crappy conclusion. Some people (like me) are just $#!^ at judging distances and tired of loosing $13 arrows. Hell, KNOWING the distance guarantees nothing, like I've said before. So take your "butt beat badly" attitude and stick it someplace else.


----------



## Kylegeary3

Can't stop cheating. Anyone willing to cheat obviously has no respect for the sport and no amount of rules will change it.


----------



## nochance

Milo357 said:


> You jump to a crappy conclusion. Some people (like me) are just $#!^ at judging distances and tired of loosing $13 arrows. Hell, KNOWING the distance guarantees nothing, like I've said before. So take your "butt beat badly" attitude and stick it someplace else.


Milo, chill! this was not in reply to your post it was in reply to the guy that said you have to eliminate unknown to solve cheating. Like i said i have no problem with known yardage.


----------



## Pete53

have known distances and posted yardage at all 3d stakes,maybe draw for partners if trophies and/or money is involved,or have non-shooters score and write in scores on score sheets from the club .some of best things I have seen is for a fun shoot scores did not matter ,club had a drawing for prizes instead. to me 3d archery just gets me ready for hunting and I use a rangefinder and binoculars for hunting, so why not allow them at a 3d shoot.you will never ever stop the cheating by some I seen it to much. but to be honest this has been hashed over way to many times about 3d scoring and cheating ,nothing I bet will change much.


----------



## 573mms

So you known yardage guys think that only unknown yardage guys cheat? The probablem is getting the correct score wrote down on the score card and turned in! That don't have anything to do with known or unknown yardage a cheater is a cheater.


----------

