# NC State Championship qualification and other issues??



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm all for opening it up like Virginia's post in General Pop says. heck they ain't even scared.... I'm also thinkin my view won't be popular though. but heck who knows.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

If your letting everybody from a whole region come is it still a state shoot? I'm not arguing either side of this fence...

Like I said, we have an open shoot as well every year. It is exactly that "open"...our State Championship is exactly that a State Championship...


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

ok.....i definately see and have heard from both sides of the opinions on state shoots

now that i can give opinions....i will:zip:

as you have pointed out PAT, since 2002 our state has grown in participation with this year taking a step backwards.....however, in archery its not always easy to gain back what we lose or lost.....

and as it is, our shoots still produce very small numbers as far as that goes....and if we are going to continue to OFFER ANYTHING to our shops/clubs that allow us to host shoots.....they im sure are looking for some kind of monetary reward, ever as small as that may be....and not too mention, the state org needs to survive with some operating capital.....

so, if we are going to cater to ourselfs, small numbers and its about keeping a few of us happy and STATE champs.....then as much as you want to blame a late schedule for the decline, i doubt thats it at all.....there is simply more interest in outdoor shooting in our state, mainly 3d.....

and those chewies dont really care about shooting 2-3 indoor shoots....history has proven that....and a couple years ago we did get a few of them out and shooting some indoors and to the championships.....perhaps THEY might still come to take a championship or 3 from us if we welcome them.....or as we both know....our yankee neighbors from VA & MD have been know to come and shoot with us a time or 3 ....and i personally dont mind if they happen to come and get LUCKY enough to win....cuz you and i both know, that would be pure luck:mg::wink:

i think that as time goes on.....VA will see a increase in shooters.....if nothing else.....they will get ONE more entry and i think some WV shooters might show up to shoot with them too

i think we need to increase our shoots anyway we can.....i do know this much....if they dont come out and shoot a qualifying score....they sure aint coming to shoot our state shoots.....those that did, were simply doing it as they dont want to join the nfaa any longer.....and therefore arent a member of the ncfaa either.....


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> If your letting everybody from a whole region come is it still a state shoot? I'm not arguing either side of this fence...
> 
> Like I said, we have an open shoot as well every year. It is exactly that "open"...our State Championship is exactly that a State Championship...


Yes it is still a state championship if its OPEN to all just a more inviting and friendly enviorment just to me at least when you hear OPEN it dosent give off that you cant set with us at lunch mentality... Even though thats not the case at all

Personally i hate the idea of a CLOSED tourney in general it shows a big fish small pond mentality in the state orgs... To me what good is it if your a STATE CHAMPION and you constiently get your arse kicked if you travel 1 hr to a neighboring state and you cant even finish top 10??? Thats why i dont value any of my state titles really any more than just a win against my buddies who I shot with the weekend before abd more thatn likely beat me too.. Really thats all it is when you know someone 1 hr away can mop up if they could have been eligible for the title



OneBowTie said:


> ok.....i definately see and have heard from both sides of the opinions on state shoots
> 
> now that i can give opinions....i will:zip:
> 
> ...


Well said!!! Thats about all i can say to that


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Could I make a suggestion. I whole heartly welcome such a discussion (as a member) and have no doubt that it can and will be done in a civil manner.

AT now has a forum for each state. How about we move this conversation over there? 

There's right much traffic over there and we can use all the forums to direct folks there.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

OneBowTie said:


> so, if we are going to cater to ourselfs, small numbers and its about keeping a few of us happy and STATE champs.....then as much as you want to blame a late schedule for the decline, i doubt thats it at all.....there is simply more interest in outdoor shooting in our state, mainly 3d.....
> 
> and those chewies dont really care about shooting 2-3 indoor shoots....history has proven that....and a couple years ago we did get a few of them out and shooting some indoors and to the championships.....perhaps THEY might still come to take a championship or 3 from us if we welcome them.....or as we both know....our yankee neighbors from VA & MD have been know to come and shoot with us a time or 3 ....and i personally dont mind if they happen to come and get LUCKY enough to win....cuz you and i both know, that would be pure luck:mg::wink:


Okay, on that vein, I haven't figures out if I'm a Chewie with Spottie tendancies or a Spottie with Chewie tendencies, I need help with that.

What is it that the world of 3D offers that NFAA/NCFAA doesn't?? Why is someone perfectly willing to go judge yardage on a target at 30 yds or less and still shoot a 5 and not come to shoot a spot at 20yds or come shoot the Field range?? 

Are chewies just that thick??:BangHead: Don't answer that.

I'm working on coming up with some ideas to help bring people out but haven't gotten any good one's yet.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> Okay, on that vein, I haven't figures out if I'm a Chewie with Spottie tendancies or a Spottie with Chewie tendencies, I need help with that.
> 
> What is it that the world of 3D offers that NFAA/NCFAA doesn't?? Why is someone perfectly willing to go judge yardage on a target at 30 yds or less and still shoot a 5 and not come to shoot a spot at 20yds or come shoot the Field range??
> 
> ...



Honestly and im not bashing chewies here but ALOT of them have target panic and have a very hard time trying to hit a visible target and not one they create in their mind... Not to mention the lack of excuses you can use in field there is no holding on the wrong spot or misjudging a target... honestly i think some 3D'ers dont shoot field cause they are afraid to see how they might really shoot when the only excuse is themselves.. Remember this is comong from a former hardcore chewie


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> Honestly and im not bashing chewies here but ALOT of them have target panic and have a very hard time trying to hit a visible target and not one they create in their mind... Not to mention the lack of excuses you can use in field there is no holding on the wrong spot or misjudging a target... honestly i think some 3D'ers dont shoot field cause they are afraid to see how they might really shoot when the only excuse is themselves.. Remember this is coming from a former hardcore chewie


I can buy that. When I came out last year to my first Field shoot, I didn't know what I was getting into. It did force me to work on my shot, both in sequence and execution. I have tried to convince a few of the guys around here that shooting Field WILL make them better 3D shooters. I know it has helped me.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> I can buy that. When I came out last year to my first Field shoot, I didn't know what I was getting into. It did force me to work on my shot, both in sequence and execution. I have tried to convince a few of the guys around here that shooting Field WILL make them better 3D shooters. I know it has helped me.


Deffinalty it will make you a better 3D shooter cause it not only forces you to work on your shot you get to see maked distances on different terrian learn how your bow archs up and down hills figure out how you can on side hills if most of your misses stray up down left or right etc.... If only they would try it and shoot one field shoot a month they would shoot 3D better within a year


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

I know from the large number of people I have spoke with most 3D shooters definately struggle with the amount of arrows that are shot at most spot shoots. Several feel they need a special set up just to play our spottie games. Too many shoot very agressive cammed bows that tire them out quickly.
Many really have no idea what it is about and feel embarrassed that they may not measure up.
Some just like to shoot with in their peer groups and not watched by other shooters. They are intimidated by shooting in a large group think everyone is watching them.
Most just plan and simple enjoy shooting 3D and have no desire to try any thing else.

Everyone I have ever shot Field Archery with always enjoyed themselves and want to play more of it. 
Indoor Archery is not for everyone. Some just cant stand shooting indoors in tight quarters, with everyone watching each other.
Everyone admits it takes a lot of practice to be good at shooting most spot games. 
Some just feel 3D is just easier to have respectable scores.

I strongly feel all archery tournaments should be open to all. No memberships required.


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## NCSUarcher (Feb 14, 2005)

*Archery*

I am a chewie, it's basically all I know and have done for the last 6 years since I started archery. But I have shot a two handful of spots and really, really, like it. And I will be a member of the NFAA and NCFAA next year and shoot in the State Championship, thanks to *Spoon13* for talking to me about this organization. I would love to shoot a field round, have never done it, tried to go with Spoon last year and it didn't pan out, I whole heartedly plan and trying again this year. The big issue is most of you don't shoot 3D and most of us don't shoot field/spots WHY?? Mainly time constraints. 3D almost requires every weekend to shoot, for practice, qualifiers (we have to shoot at every club once) and then the biggies, ASA events. It's hard to do all that and then shoot some spot and field too. I am sure this is a reason all the field guys and gals or spotties don't come to 3D events, finding the time to learn it and practice it and go do it along with your own shoots is difficult. Especially for young families or people that work ever other weekend (ME). But I enjoyarchery and want to learn more about it and get more involved. I think you will see more people shoot the indoor next year especially from Montgomery County. We had a $$ league at Bob's Sporting Goods twice in the winter and had ~30 people shoot it, a lot of first timers and I believe they enjoyed it and want to do more, so we will see what next year brings. As far as the issues going on with attendance and state shoots, I don't know. But I will think about it.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm not through with you yet. I feel some spottie tendancies in you!!!


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Spoon13 said:


> I'm not through with you yet. I feel some spottie tendancies in you!!!


Be sure you get him to come out next Sat. I've got the OK to attend the benefit shoot and would like to meet this "mystery guy". :wink:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

I know this, if I had the desire, and the ability, I could go shoot in GA, NC, SC, AL, and FL for their respective ASA state shoots, and have the same chance to win at all of those, provided I qualify for their particular state shoots. Chewie nation has figured out one thing, closed state tournaments are not good for the states. Those who are in fairly close in proximity to a few different state shoots are not inclined to participate in all of them if they have no chance of winning anything. Sure I could go to the SC state field and participate, but only as a guest. Even if I had the skills to win I would not be eligible unless I was an NFAA member through SC.

Why don't chewies participate in NFAA venues? Some do, and more and more are beginning to look at those events. Having said that, one reason, and it is a big reason for some, is the lack of monetary payout in the Amateur classes. Right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent, chewies have become accustomed to winning cashola shooting in the AM classes. Again, I am not saying I agree or disagree, but it is a reality. I know a couple of chewies that attended the state field or indoor here in GA, won, and then said, why would I want to put out that kinda cash for entry fees, travel, lodging, food, etc when all I get in return is a bowl...........

Then you have the lack of knowing about those shoots. From where I sit, at least in my state, the GBAA has done a poor job of promoting and marketing their shoots. Chewies are not afraid of shooting in front of anyone, when we attend national ASA shoots we never know who we will be shooting with.....

It could have to do with the # of arrows shot. I can't really say for sure.

It could be that many of them (us) do feel they need 2 or 3 completely different setups, 1 indoor, 1 field, 1 for 3d. Again, right or wrong is not really the issue, but it is the perception. Those fast 3D rigs with their jumbo arrows are not always condusive for field shooting....

I think it all boils down to 2 primary factors, lack of either knowing about the NFAA type shoots in the individual states or the payback factor.....


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

reylamb said:


> I know this, if I had the desire, and the ability, I could go shoot in GA, NC, SC, AL, and FL for their respective ASA state shoots, and have the same chance to win at all of those, provided I qualify for their particular state shoots. Chewie nation has figured out one thing, closed state tournaments are not good for the states. Those who are in fairly close in proximity to a few different state shoots are not inclined to participate in all of them if they have no chance of winning anything. Sure I could go to the SC state field and participate, but only as a guest. Even if I had the skills to win I would not be eligible unless I was an NFAA member through SC.
> 
> Why don't chewies participate in NFAA venues? Some do, and more and more are beginning to look at those events. Having said that, one reason, and it is a big reason for some, is the lack of monetary payout in the Amateur classes. Right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent, chewies have become accustomed to winning cashola shooting in the AM classes. Again, I am not saying I agree or disagree, but it is a reality. I know a couple of chewies that attended the state field or indoor here in GA, won, and then said, why would I want to put out that kinda cash for entry fees, travel, lodging, food, etc when all I get in return is a bowl...........
> 
> ...



Couple of points. To shoot in an ASA State Championship, you MUST be qualified to shoot it in that State, as per the rules. The NCFAA is NO different. In order to shoot the NCFAA State Championship, you would have to turn in a score at an NCFAA event prior to the State Championship. Likewise if I wanted to attend the GA ASA State Championship, I would have to attend a specific State Qualifier to be eligible. ASA State Championships are MORE exclusive based on the fact that you must attend a predetermined shoot to be eligible. NCFAA only asks you to turn in one score, anywhere in NC.

I will agree with you on the payback thing though. It's sad that so many people HOPE so much to get paid but never do and let the potential opportunity to maybe get a check drive their decision making process as to what shoots to go to. Sad but true. The top 20% gets paid, the other 80% go home with less money in their pockets than they came with. But they aren't going to no NFAA shoot cause NFAA don't pay.

Just sayin'.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

reylamb said:


> I know this, if I had the desire, and the ability, I could go shoot in GA, NC, SC, AL, and FL for their respective ASA state shoots, and have the same chance to win at all of those, *1)*provided I qualify for their particular state shoots. Chewie nation has figured out one thing, closed state tournaments are not good for the states. Those who are in fairly close in proximity to a few different state shoots are not inclined to participate in all of them if they have no chance of winning anything. Sure I could go to the SC state field and participate, but only as a guest. Even if I had the skills to win I would not be eligible unless I was an NFAA member through SC.
> 
> Why don't chewies participate in NFAA venues? Some do, and more and more are beginning to look at those events. Having said that, one reason, and it is a big reason for some, *2)*is the lack of monetary payout in the Amateur classes. Right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent, chewies have become accustomed to winning cashola shooting in the AM classes. Again, I am not saying I agree or disagree, but it is a reality. I know a couple of chewies that attended the state field or indoor here in GA, won, and then said, why would I want to put out that kinda cash for entry fees, travel, lodging, food, etc when all I get in return is a bowl...........
> 
> ...


1) I'm not an ASA member, what does it take to qualify for an ASA shoot? I can see your point, but I was recently taken to task because we require a qualifier. That means shoot any shoot on the NCFAA schedule...viola you're qualified... Tbhe state shoot is open only to NCFAA members, but that is what the members wanted (I say wanted, because I haven't asked the membership what they currently want)...we do usually hold an "Open" championship as well...

2) You might have a point there, but the way I see it (and I won't argue this here that's not what this thread is about) that is one of the primary reasons I don't shoot 3-d much. It creates too many issues, and tends to bring out the worst in folks (certainly not everybody). If you want to shoot for money, there is a division for that...

3) Here is one we can both agree on. I think the biggest participation can be had through better promotion, and I believe we are starting to see the effects here in NC. Most guys I know that come out and shoot 1 time, come back and play the game again. Problem is, a few years ago when I moved to NC, nobody had even heard of field archery. The club I joined when I moved here had a very challenging and fun field course. Talked to several long time 3-d shooters that were members, they didn't even know it was there...Heck even our National outdoor tournament takes 4th fiddle to the 3 star tour, and we're supposed to be the National FIELD ARCHERY Association...

That IMHO is where our efforts need to be focused...


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

psargeant said:


> 1) I'm not an ASA member, what does it take to qualify for an ASA shoot? I can see your point, but I was recently taken to task because we require a qualifier. That means shoot any shoot on the NCFAA schedule...viola you're qualified... Tbhe state shoot is open only to NCFAA members, but that is what the members wanted (I say wanted, because I haven't asked the membership what they currently want)...we do usually hold an "Open" championship as well...
> 
> 2) You might have a point there, but the way I see it (and I won't argue this here that's not what this thread is about) that is one of the primary reasons I don't shoot 3-d much. It creates too many issues, and tends to bring out the worst in folks (certainly not everybody). If you want to shoot for money, there is a division for that...
> 
> ...



If I remember right you had to qualify to go the the ASA shoot at end of the year forgot what they called it but it was the big one. Classic maybe.. Now you could attend the ASA pro-ams thru out the summer if you attended enough 2 or 3 you were qualified to go to the big one. If you didn't qualify by attendance there you could shoot a local state qualifier held at various clubs and locations in the state. the took the top 20 scores in any class I think. If ya weren't in the top 20 ya went to another qualifier until ya made it. so ya had those two ways to qualifier for the big one at the end of the summer.. Don't know if they still do it this way. But I'm sure that Treeman65 can enlighten us all..


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

psargeant said:


> 1) I'm not an ASA member, what does it take to qualify for an ASA shoot? I can see your point, but I was recently taken to task because we require a qualifier. That means shoot any shoot on the NCFAA schedule...viola you're qualified... Tbhe state shoot is open only to NCFAA members, but that is what the members wanted (I say wanted, because I haven't asked the membership what they currently want)...we do usually hold an "Open" championship as well...
> 
> 2) You might have a point there, but the way I see it (and I won't argue this here that's not what this thread is about) that is one of the primary reasons I don't shoot 3-d much. It creates too many issues, and tends to bring out the worst in folks (certainly not everybody). If you want to shoot for money, there is a division for that...
> 
> ...


The Pro/Am events are open to any member of ASA. You can shoot at ONE event during the course of the year as a "Guest", but must join ASA before attending another Pro/Am in the same calendar year.

In order to qualify for The Classic, one must attend at least 2 Pro/Am events or 1 and your respective State tournament.

To be qualified for the State Tournament, one must turn in a score at an ASA State Qualifier tournament. There are usually several held throughout the course of the year in different geographical areas of the state. 

To participate in an ASA State Qualifier, one must be a paid member of ASA.


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## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

i'm kind of a 50/50 chewie/spottie and being a "hybrid" so to speak definitely makes you better at 3d. just as rockie said, yesterday at the gbaa state indoor i saw several NEW "died in the wool" chewies there. guys that i have never seen before, good shots all. so there's hope for the spottie world. also, like rocky said, i just happened to check the gaa schedule on saturday nite and saw the indoor was this weekend, so i had to shoot the whole tournament on sunday (not an easy thing to do). that was a killer, and all because of very little advertisement by the gbaa... now on the $$$, not only is the $25 or $30, if you're late, tournament fee; but you have to be an nfaa or naa member to win anything. otherwise, as i was belatedly informed of, you have to shoot as a quest. that's a bunch more money (especially in these times of unemployment)..and even if you win, you get a little plastic plaque or medallion. soooooooo. spottie shooting is strictly for bragging rights mostly, but then again, not all of the best shooters attend. just my .02.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

X Hunter said:


> Honestly and im not bashing chewies here but ALOT of them have target panic and have a very hard time trying to hit a visible target and not one they create in their mind... Not to mention the lack of excuses you can use in field there is no holding on the wrong spot or misjudging a target... honestly i think some 3D'ers dont shoot field cause they are afraid to see how they might really shoot when the only excuse is themselves.. Remember this is comong from a former hardcore chewie


Thats why I don't shoot 3D competitively. I hate executing a perfect shot and ending up with a 5 (or less) I don't have the time to put into judging yardage to be competitive. I shoot 3D with a range finder and I shoot FOR FUN. That is how I hunt. I don't take a shot at a live animal past 25 yards without KNOWING the exact yardage.
So I guess I am saying I would rather KNOW I missed because I made a poor shot and not misjudged yardage. 
I wish more people would try field. I used to shoot LOTS of 3D (rather well in the day) but I would now rather drive 3 hours to shoot a field shoot than 15 min to shoot 3D.
JMHO
John


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## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

there's only one problem with that. field shoots are far in between and 3d shoots or as many as 3 a weekend, if you get an early start and have a job making some money. it gets very expensive with the gas and entry fees.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

oldgeez said:


> there's only one problem with that. field shoots are far in between and 3d shoots or as many as 3 a weekend, if you get an early start and have a job making some money. it gets very expensive with the gas and entry fees.


In some areas you're right. We will have a field shoot in NC every weekend this year I think...


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Hmmm?*

Seems to me, there are TWO, at least diferent issues here! 1, getting Chewies more involved in Spottie venues. 2, the rediculous closed state issues! In my opinion, it should be about archery first, the state BS, secondly! We all know the IBO, has it's issues, but One could travel the country shooting state shoots, and winning many! As it should be! The best man/woman should win! If you are happy winning by default, then so be it! Personally I do not want to win like that! It's kinda like the handicapp system, I do not want to win by handicapp, nor do I want to lose by handicapp! But that's another topic! I/we live in the Eastern Panhandle. We can easily, and do support 3 states. We usually just find a shoot, and go. It maybe in Md., Va., Pa., or WVa. Unfortunately not much in this part of WVa. for spots. I hate playing the State thing! That shouldn't even factor in, when trying to find somewhere to shoot! It's supposed to be about shooting, not statehood! Some of the same people that promote this closed state thing, are the same people that wine about how attendance has declined so much! Well let me ask, how does closing state shoots, and what not, promote the archery game, that we all proclaim to love so much?? Seems they love their state a little more! If there are some hot shots, that can bounce from state, and take their state titles, then more power to these hard working archers! Just says that if you don't want that to happen, you need to step up your game! I know that if I were shooting in my "picked" state, shoot, and an "out of state guest" bested my score, but because he or she was shooting as an "out of state guest" I won the title. I would still feel like I had been beaten! The hardest working, most devoted, most passionate, should win! Archery should be promoted, not states! Just my opinion!


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pennysdad said:


> Seems to me, there are TWO, at least diferent issues here! 1, getting Chewies more involved in Spottie venues. 2, the rediculous closed state issues! In my opinion, it should be about archery first, the state BS, secondly! We all know the IBO, has it's issues, but One could travel the country shooting state shoots, and winning many! As it should be! The best man/woman should win! If you are happy winning by default, then so be it! Personally I do not want to win like that! It's kinda like the handicapp system, I do not want to win by handicapp, nor do I want to lose by handicapp! But that's another topic! I/we live in the Eastern Panhandle. We can easily, and do support 3 states. We usually just find a shoot, and go. It maybe in Md., Va., Pa., or WVa. Unfortunately not much in this part of WVa. for spots. I hate playing the State thing! That shouldn't even factor in, when trying to find somewhere to shoot! It's supposed to be about shooting, not statehood! Some of the same people that promote this closed state thing, are the same people that wine about how attendance has declined so much! Well let me ask, how does closing state shoots, and what not, promote the archery game, that we all proclaim to love so much?? Seems they love their state a little more! If there are some hot shots, that can bounce from state, and take their state titles, then more power to these hard working archers! Just says that if you don't want that to happen, you need to step up your game! I know that if I were shooting in my "picked" state, shoot, and an "out of state guest" bested my score, but because he or she was shooting as an "out of state guest" I won the title. I would still feel like I had been beaten! The hardest working, most devoted, most passionate, should win! Archery should be promoted, not states! Just my opinion!


I personally agree with you. That said, we currently have state closed tournaments. Why is that you ask...??? Because at some point that is what our membership wanted. Isn't that the real goal of a state organization, to support their membership's wishes? I plan on finding a way to effectively figure out what our membership actually does want. I personally don't have a problem with allowing members from other states to come and compete in our state tournaments (assuming they are either NFAA or NAA members). Most of the folks I regularly interact with I suspect feel the exact same way, but I can't be sure about all of our other members as I don't interract woth everyone. 

This is a good discussion to have I believe. I intend to take some of these ideas to our membership and see what they think, but it is ultimately about what the membership wants, not what I want...


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Another issue!*

That's another issue, I think we are getting somewhere now! Way to many subtitles! It sounds like we are talking about religion, or politics! State, local, and federal, etc, etc!Let's just get back to the basic's, and shoot! Just in the small circle that Blondie, and I travel in, we have the NFAA, NAA, USA, MAA, VBA,VFAA,PSAA,PSFAA, I think? I probably missed some, or miss spelled some, but you get the idea! I just wanna shoot, and not have to worry about the trivial indifferences! I do not like shooting as a "GUEST"! That means I am basically shooting for nothing! Does it really matter what score I shoot? I know that sounds bad. But I like to shoot as well as I can. I always shoot better if it matters, it's a mental thing! I do not care if I win. But I like to shoot to my ability. I put more value on my shots, when they matter! Shooting as a guest, your shots really don't matter! So what these "State" orgs. are saying, is that if a large group of out of staters wanted to shoot, they are not welcome? That really promotes archery, and helps failing, and faltering clubs know doesn't it? But by God, you will keep that state title instate for sure! From what I understand this was an old rule, established back in the day, when Field archery was strong? Every club that we go to, cries the blues about how the attendance is way down, and it is! They all have their theories on why it is. But what is anyone doing about it? Obviously the past practices is what got us here. So, obviously some things need to change! Like I said in another post, my hat goes off to VBA! Let's hope they started the ball rolling!


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Pleasing everyone??*

You are not going to please everyone! May be worth loosing a few, to gain many!!


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Spoon13 said:


> Couple of points. To shoot in an ASA State Championship, you MUST be qualified to shoot it in that State, as per the rules. The NCFAA is NO different. In order to shoot the NCFAA State Championship, you would have to turn in a score at an NCFAA event prior to the State Championship. Likewise if I wanted to attend the GA ASA State Championship, I would have to attend a specific State Qualifier to be eligible. ASA State Championships are MORE exclusive based on the fact that you must attend a predetermined shoot to be eligible. NCFAA only asks you to turn in one score, anywhere in NC.
> 
> I will agree with you on the payback thing though. It's sad that so many people HOPE so much to get paid but never do and let the potential opportunity to maybe get a check drive their decision making process as to what shoots to go to. Sad but true. The top 20% gets paid, the other 80% go home with less money in their pockets than they came with. But they aren't going to no NFAA shoot cause NFAA don't pay.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Sorta on point 1. If you are a lifetime ASA member you are pre-qualified for any state shoot you want to attend. The requirements in NC are the same in GA for the ASA state shoot, with one small, or large depending on how you look at it, exception. In NC you can shoot any shoot and be qualified, to qualify for the ASA state shoots you must attend a qualifier. Of course I do know a bunch of folks that shot the FL, GA, and AL state shoots last year because of their proximity to the borders of those states. When the guys from FL came to GA they were not told, welcome, please shoot, but you can't win. Closed championships is a lose - lose all the way around. 

In reality though, if someone showed up at an ASA state shoot that was not qualified they could still shoot. Unless someone filed the official protest it is doubtful anything would be done........

The money I ain't touching with a 10' pole. I know folks that have switched bow manufacturers just because of the payouts being offererd to ams for shooting those bows..........for some money is their focus, to them I say, ik, have fun.......


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

psargeant said:


> 1) I'm not an ASA member, what does it take to qualify for an ASA shoot? I can see your point, but I was recently taken to task because we require a qualifier. That means shoot any shoot on the NCFAA schedule...viola you're qualified... Tbhe state shoot is open only to NCFAA members, but that is what the members wanted (I say wanted, because I haven't asked the membership what they currently want)...we do usually hold an "Open" championship as well...
> 
> 2) You might have a point there, but the way I see it (and I won't argue this here that's not what this thread is about) that is one of the primary reasons I don't shoot 3-d much. It creates too many issues, and tends to bring out the worst in folks (certainly not everybody). If you want to shoot for money, there is a division for that...
> 
> ...


1. The basics are, you either have to attend a state qualifier or be a lifetime member. If I wanted to shoot the ASA state shoots in NC, SC, GA, FL, and AL I would need to attend a qualifier in those states or be a lifetime member. I personally would never give anyone grief for proposing to have qualifiers to attend a state shoot. Qualifiers promote local clubs, local shooters, and helps get the word out on the local level........

2. I also do not want to argue the money issue, but the facts are still the facts. The better 3D shooters in the amateur classes (I know oxymoron) are accustomed to getting moolah for shooting well.......and many will not attend NFAA events because there is no moolah to be had.

3. Promotion.......it ain't what it used to be. There is the SE sectionals this weekend in GA. You would think everyone in GA would know about this. You would think the GBAA would have entry forms, information, location, times, etc on their site for GA folks to be able to get signed up for the shoot................of course that would be an incorrect assumption for some reason.......heck, for whatever reason there is not even an email going out to the members informing them of upcoming shoots........promotion, or lack thereof is hurting many a state association....


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

reylamb said:


> 1. The basics are, you either have to attend a state qualifier or be a lifetime member. If I wanted to shoot the ASA state shoots in NC, SC, GA, FL, and AL I would need to attend a qualifier in those states or be a lifetime member. I personally would never give anyone grief for proposing to have qualifiers to attend a state shoot. Qualifiers promote local clubs, local shooters, and helps get the word out on the local level........
> 
> 2. I also do not want to argue the money issue, but the facts are still the facts. The better 3D shooters in the amateur classes (I know oxymoron) are accustomed to getting moolah for shooting well.......and many will not attend NFAA events because there is no moolah to be had.
> 
> 3. Promotion.......it ain't what it used to be. There is the SE sectionals this weekend in GA. You would think everyone in GA would know about this. You would think the GBAA would have entry forms, information, location, times, etc on their site for GA folks to be able to get signed up for the shoot................of course that would be an incorrect assumption for some reason.......heck, for whatever reason there is not even an email going out to the members informing them of upcoming shoots........promotion, or lack thereof is hurting many a state association....


1) Thanks for clearing that up...I like the qualifiers requirement as an incentive to get folks out to support the local shoots personally, but if you read this thread, there are many that disagree with that...

2) I understand and you are probably right...I hate to say this as I want everybody to attend, but those that are only motivated by money are the ones that tend to cause issues. If the only reason they show up is to win $$$, they won't stick around long...

3) Dead nuts right on. Problem is, these orgs already operate on a very limited budget. Both with $$$ and with folks willing and able to put in the time to do the promoting. I'll be the first to admit as the president of the NCFAA I feel there is more that could/should be done by the state org to promote our sport. I'm plenty willing, problem is I'm simply not able, and the few others that pitch in on our level aren't either. We do what we can.. I frankly would rather not be the president because I know I don't have the time to do it right, but nobody else was willing to do it so here I am. Squeezing it in between work, wife, 2 kids, a house, travel soccer, maintaining the field range at my club, trying to fibnd some time to shoot myself, etc...unfortunately this work is way down my list of priorities...I'd like nothing more than to hand the job to someone both willing and able to do it right...


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Hmmm?*



psargeant said:


> I personally agree with you. That said, we currently have state closed tournaments. Why is that you ask...??? Because at some point that is what our membership wanted. Isn't that the real goal of a state organization, to support their membership's wishes? I plan on finding a way to effectively figure out what our membership actually does want. I personally don't have a problem with allowing members from other states to come and compete in our state tournaments (assuming they are either NFAA or NAA members). Most of the folks I regularly interact with I suspect feel the exact same way, but I can't be sure about all of our other members as I don't interract woth everyone.
> 
> This is a good discussion to have I believe. I intend to take some of these ideas to our membership and see what they think, but it is ultimately about what the membership wants, not what I want...


I'll bet they wish their attendance was higher? Which in turn would equate to more revenue for the org. State qualifiers are not a bad idea. I'm not sure how effective that would be, as in promoting the sport though? It would be great for the area within close proximatey of the club. But most are not going to make a long trip twice. Once to maybe qualify, and then go back if they do? State title, aint worth that.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pennysdad said:


> I'll bet they wish their attendance was higher? Which in turn would equate to more revenue for the org. State qualifiers are not a bad idea. I'm not sure how effective that would be, as in promoting the sport though? It would be great for the area within close proximatey of the club. But most are not going to make a long trip twice. Once to maybe qualify, and then go back if they do? State title, aint worth that.


We have qualifiers all over the state at multiple locations, we even host our state indoor shoot at multiple places...all you have to do to qualify is complete a round and turn in your score...

Sure we would like our attendance to increase, but our "Vegas Open Championship" (didn't even need to be a member) shoot had less attendance...

You're still missing the point though. A state organization is there for its members, not to make a profit, not to help members of other states, not to do what it thinks is best, but to support its members. Not to say it shouldn't try and convince people on what they believe to be the best, but it is still something the membership should decide...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Can anyone answer these with any degree of certainty?

1) What NFAA affiliated "state" associations open its "state championship shoot" to non-state NFAA members?

2) Is it NFAA "legal" for a NFAA affiliated state association to open its state championship shoot to non-state NFAA members?


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*No I get the point!*

Sounds just like one of my border states, and it aint Va.! LOL!! They try to keep all 5, of the old timers happy!! My point is based on this way of thinking, archery will "progress" to the way of the Dodo bird!


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Can anyone answer these with any degree of certainty?
> 
> 1) What NFAA affiliated "state" associations open its "state championship shoot" to non-state NFAA members?
> 
> 2) Is it NFAA "legal" for a NFAA affiliated state association to open its state championship shoot to non-state NFAA members?


1) The only one I know of is the VFAA (Virginia)...

2) Not sure on that...I saw something that seemed to say you could not, but Va does...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pennysdad said:


> Sounds just like one of my border states, and it aint Va.! LOL!! They try to keep all 5, of the old timers happy!! My point is based on this way of thinking, archery will "progress" to the way of the Dodo bird!


I'm not sure I entirely agree with that...it is pretty obvious you have an axe to grind with one of the border states...But 2 of 3 are very well participated in (Md and Va)...Maybe its PA? They have 2 "Field archery" orgs there and you might be right about one of them. I have heard that elsewhere...

It is still up to the organization to do what the majority of its members want...Can/should you try and infleunce that...??? Sure you should, but at the end of the day you won't be around long if you go against your membership...Look at what has been happening to the membership in the NFAA for exactly that reason...I have been approached by several long time NCFAA/NFAA members this year asking if there was a way to join the NCFAA only...I've looked into it...I'm starting to think PFATA and the VBA might be onto something...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> 1) The only one I know of is the VFAA (Virginia)...
> 
> 2) Not sure on that...I saw something that seemed to say you could not, but Va does...


1) That's the only 1 I've heard of and now it seems that NC is being called/singled out. 

2) I'm at the exact same place - something sticks in my mind that it is not NFAA kosher, but surely can't back that up right now.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> 1) That's the only 1 I've heard of and now it seems that NC is being called/singled out.
> 
> 2) I'm at the exact same place - something sticks in my mind that it is not NFAA kosher, but surely can't back that up right now.


I haven't got time to find it, but I think there is a post somewhere in this very thread...nope, it must be in the original one...


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## 1stRockinArcher (Dec 30, 2002)

psargeant said:


> 1) The only one I know of is the VFAA (Virginia)...
> 
> 2) Not sure on that...I saw something that seemed to say you could not, but Va does...


There are 2 State Archery orgs in VA. plus they have a closed and an open championship.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

psargeant said:


> I haven't got time to find it, but I think there is a post somewhere in this very thread...nope, it must be in the original one...


I know I have read somewhere on AT that we can only be eligible to win the state championship for the state we are registered through. You can shoot other state championships, but are not eligible to win, you must shoot as a guest. At least that is what my foggy memory is remembering right now anyway!!!!!!!!


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

1stRockinArcher said:


> There are 2 State Archery orgs in VA. plus they have a closed and an open championship.


But only one affiliated with the NFAA...They only had a state open. The VBA back in their time as the affiliate did have both an open and a closed tournament. You're right about that...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

There it is...check post 5:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1053950171#post1053950171


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*At the end of the day.*



psargeant said:


> I'm not sure I entirely agree with that...it is pretty obvious you have an axe to grind with one of the border states...But 2 of 3 are very well participated in (Md and Va)...Maybe its PA? They have 2 "Field archery" orgs there and you might be right about one of them. I have heard that elsewhere...
> 
> It is still up to the organization to do what the majority of its members want...Can/should you try and infleunce that...??? Sure you should, but at the end of the day you won't be around long if you go against your membership...Look at what has been happening to the membership in the NFAA for exactly that reason...I have been approached by several long time NCFAA/NFAA members this year asking if there was a way to join the NCFAA only...I've looked into it...I'm starting to think PFATA and the VBA might be onto something...


Let's look at the Hillbilly for examle. That shoot has more attendance, than any other Field shoot in the state! who is the sanctioning body? Nobody! Yes, I know attendance is also down for that shoot! But people come from everywhere to shoot it! For what? Nothing but fun! Yes, there have been some issues about it not being sanctioned. But where does that issue really lie?? With the majority, or the minority? Another example, the LAS Classic. People come from all over the country, and even from out of the country! Who sanctions this one? Nobody! The entry fee is steep, to say the least! The chances of winning is nill! Everyone knows this, there is only a handfull of people in the country, that have any chance of winning anything here, except for maybe a door prize! But this shoot is huge! They probably make more money in one weekend, than most clubs make in their entire existance! The point is neither one of the shoots are bogged down with the politics of orgs. Seems like something could be learned from this??


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

X Hunter said:


> Yes it is still a state championship if its OPEN to all just a more inviting and friendly enviorment just to me at least when you hear OPEN it dosent give off that you cant set with us at lunch mentality... Even though thats not the case at all
> 
> Personally i hate the idea of a CLOSED tourney in general it shows a big fish small pond mentality in the state orgs... To me what good is it if your a STATE CHAMPION and you constiently get your arse kicked if you travel 1 hr to a neighboring state and you cant even finish top 10??? Thats why i dont value any of my state titles really any more than just a win against my buddies who I shot with the weekend before abd more thatn likely beat me too.. Really thats all it is when you know someone 1 hr away can mop up if they could have been eligible for the title
> 
> ...


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I don't know if the state orgs have got it right either. 

in my mind the way it should work. you got an archer so get the archer to join the club. pay the club fee this gets them eligible to shoot the club shoots and practice ranges and club championship. now that archer might practice and shoot the club shoots and lets say one might place hing in the club championship. so next he might ask how do I get into the 
state level? well ya join the state organization and then your eligible for the state championships. next the archer might ask how do it get to the national level shoots. Well ya join the NFAA and that gets you eligible for National level shooting. So there could be a progression a new club member could progress thru.. 

Now how is it really. I am interested in joining your club. Well ya gotta pay the club dues ya gotta join the state org and ya gotta join the National org or ya can't shoot at all. no progression it either join it all or none. wonder how many in any state elect to stay in back yard and not join at all. 

just seems the process leaves out choices as to what level anyone person would choose to participate at. Myself, I would like club level and state level but I really don't have any big desires to shoot National level. but It is forced upon me in the state I am in. I know I don't have the choices... it was join the NFAA and State org or forget it.


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

I for one would really like to see all shoots completely open. In the style of the WAF Vegas ect. All are welome to compete. No membership of any type required. Raise the tournament fees to allow the organization that is running things to make enough money to survive. Please cut down on all the different shooting divisions. Make the tournaments have some stature when someone wins them. Cut the amount of awards handed out dramatically, organizations are going broke paying for this meaningless trinkets.

These shoots can be multi functional - If you are a member of a certain organization follow that organizations rules to compete so the score you shoot will count as a registered score. If you are not into all that stuff just go out to have fun. To compete for awards you will need to follow some national organizations rule guidelines.

Everytime there is a new rule restricking something somebody loses out.
The more rules you have - the more unhappy people you have.
All that is left is the small select group that like those rules and probably implimented most of them. Sort of like giving up your liberty.
Sooner or later a rule will be made that really upsets you and you will probally quit and move on to something else for entertainment

The NFAA does have a rule that a NFAA member must declare which state he is going to compete for awards in and is allowed to compete for awards in that state and Sectional of that state for one year. It would make since to me that the member should be paying his annual dues to that state association where he is competeing. I do know of a few people that are members of multiple state organizations, but they can still only compete for awards in one.

People that want to shoot for money need to organise the pot and handle it. Then deal with all the stuff that comes out of it.


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