# Question for all you gap shooters



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

mrjeffro said:


> After asking you guys a million questions about gap shooting I thought I had it figured out and gave it a try. My shooting got much better using a site and I found the transition to gap shooting a little confusing. Shooting at a blue faced target at 20 yards, it was easy to figure out my gap ( I was hoping for a smaller gap at 20 yards but that question is for another thread) .
> 
> After shooting awhile at 20 yards I found myself using a more POA style aiming and not gapping anymore. I would put the arrow tip on a spot of my target below the bullseye and focus on that spot. This is sort of "cheating" on the gap style of aiming and I know it won't help me on 3-d's and in the hunting woods.
> 
> ...


Hey jeffro..aint tryin ta jack yer thread but i'm strugglin with all that as well and have been patiently waiting for a response..cause get this..i'm trying to gap..i get the gap at whatever distance..and after a few shots?..guess what i hit?..

the spot i'm trying to gap from!

then it degrades from there too...early release cause my subconscious says "It's There! Nail It!"...and guess what?..i nail it...despite my conscious minds best efforts to hold a point on a spot...to usually miss by several inches. 

so...will someone please answer this man! :laugh:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Did you find your gap first..I mean your actual gap on a target? What is it? How many inches? In my experiences when I first learned to gap, take the average 20yd shot at a 3D deer target, my arrow tip ended up on the horizontal belly line, where it intersects the leg. About 15" or so. If you have not figured your gap yet just put a center dot on the target and another one below it..(Use a magic marker) I'd start at about 12" and fine tune until you hit the center..then measure the distance between the dots. That's your gap at 20. Lot's of variables are in play here, like anchor, arrow weight and length, facial structure, bow poundage, 3 under, split finger (huge gaps)The POA you are talking about is no different than gap itself. You hold the arrow under in varying lengths at different distances up to your point on, which is where you place the point in the center and it goes in the center. After that distance you have to start holding over. Once your learn the gaps it turns into a split vision kind of thing..and eventually after your brain and bowarm are hard wired, more focus is shifted to the target, and less on the arrow. The POA method you mentioned, just measure from the spot you are using as a reference, up to the center of the target, and that is your gap too..it's really not any different.

You hold x amount of inches under at a given distance until it reaches center, then point on, then over. You have to figure those out and be a decent judge of yardage as well. If you can group them in the center using the method you are using now..simply measure from your POA to the center. It's still a gap any way you look at it. Another way to find it easily, if you have a big enough target at 20 is to draw a spot in lower 1/3rd and put your point in it. Then measure from the point to the center of the group of arrows above. Write it down, then use estimation from that point forward. After you get 20 down, then start from 5 yards and move back to 10, then 15, then 20. Nothing the gap at each. Ideally it's best to start at 5 then move back to 20, you will notice a trend by the time you get out to 20, continuing on until your point on.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Ok not sure about the correct definitions and all that... But here is what I do and its been pretty successful for me:

I find my point on distance, with my Border limbs (42#) and my setup it is 47 yards. I then shoot my 50 yard until I figure out my gap there, on the 122 CM FITA target that is the top of the yellow ring. Or approx 5 inches. I then shoot my 45 as point on and see where my arrow hits, after a group I know it is 2" high. I then go to 40 and shoot a group, etc... Now I cheat also from gapping... 
At 20 yards I know if I hold my riser nut on the X ring, and look at where my riser cutout below the nut is on the target, hold my point there and its perfect. At 25 yards, draw back, hold tip of arrow on X ring, look at plunger button, move tip to where that was on the target... at 55 yards - I draw back, hold plunger button on x ring, check arrow alingment (left/right) and its perfect. 63 yards is the nut on the back of my rest, 77 is my shelf. 88 yards is shelf on x ring, look at where rest arm is, move shelf to that... (stacking)... 101 yards, hold shelf on x, look at arrow tip, move shelf to that spot... Now do I gap shoot, do I pick a point.. heck I am not sure what its called..... oh yeah my 11 yard... hold arm out in front of me, pinkie up, tip of pinkie on X, look at first knuckle down from tip... thats my aim point ..... 4 yards draw back, hold tip of arrow 2 inches below X.... LOL... Its just practice and knowing your equipment. FOr shots in between those its kind of gapstinctive pick a point..... LOL


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

For shoots where you shoot more than 1 arrow per target such as Safari or field... I make sure I set my gap, then release first arrow, if its a bit high or low I can then adjust my aim point for the other arrows.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Hi Jeff,

Actually, I don’t think you have anything to be concerned about at this point. Bob Wesley (a friend and student of Howard Hill, and who still offers one-on-one coaching in his 80’s), wrote a small book ages ago titled, “Indirect Aiming.” Too bad it’s still not in print as I think a lot of “new” archers could benefit greatly from it.

Anyway……

In the book he taught to set a 9” paper plate below the mark. You put the tip of the arrow in the center of the plate and move it (the plate) up or down until you’re hitting the mark at 10 yards. You continue to shoot until all your arrows are hitting the mark while keeping the tip of the arrow in the center of the plate.

Then, you make the transition. You concentrate on the mark while “seeing” the tip in the center of the place in your periphery. You keep doing that until you’re comfortable. Once you’re confident, you take the plate away, and you should be able to “feel” the gap at 10 yards. Keep shooting there until you hit the mark while concentrating on it, and it alone. 

Then, you simply do the same drill at 15, 20, 25, and so on. 

You’ll not only learn to “feel” the gaps, but have a lot of fun too. :^)


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

mrjeffro said:


> After shooting awhile at 20 yards I found myself using a more POA style aiming and not gapping anymore. I would put the arrow tip on a spot of my target below the bullseye and focus on that spot. This is sort of "cheating" on the gap style of aiming and I know it won't help me on 3-d's and in the hunting woods.
> 
> How do I avoid this and get back to using the gap method?


First off...don't think of it as 'cheating'!

Think of it as a stage you may need to learn as a person learns to walk before they run.

Once you know where your Point of Aim is for a specific distance you can than shift your focus to the target as you let your point hover over that POA out of focus within your periphial vision. At this point in your aiming development...you are now actually learning Split Vision. As you shift focus from your arrow tip and your POA to the target you can either let your unconscious/subconscoius mind begin to learn the gap or you can do it consciously by just looking at it.

Over time...you will learn it.

Ray :shade:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _You let your point hover over that POA out of focus within your periphial vision......At this point in your aiming development...you are now actually learning Split Vision._


Amen!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*gap system*

All of the above responses actually are a point of aim system. In a true gap system, you never know where the tip of the arrow is pointing, except at your point on. Here's how it works. Ideally, your point on should be no farther than forty yards and you must find your point on to figure out your gaps. After finding your point on, go to the next 5 yard increment down.ie: p0int on=40, go to 35 yards. Now your gap is the distance between the top arc of your arrow and the spot. The mistake that 99.9% of archers make is that they want to reference that gap up on the bale or target in terms of inches. In doing so they are looking at the tip of the arrow to determine a point up at the bale or target and, repeating what i said earlier , this defeats the advantage of a good gap system. After finding your point on and going to a distance 5 yards closer, aim an arrow at your spot, not thinking the spot is 35 yards away, but sitting right over your arrow tip 30" away. You bring the spot to you and pretend it is sitting right over your arrow 30" inches from your face. At this point, if you looked where the tip of the arrow was pointing it might be 18" below the spot but this is not what we are looking for. Now, instead of looking at where the arrow tip is pointing, look at the distance between the top arc of your arrow tip and the spot that you have mentally brought back and placed over the tip of your arrow. At 35 yards there should be approx. a 1/4 inch gap between your arrow and the spot, all this at 30 inches in front of your eye. Generally, depending on the speed of your bow, the five yard increments are usually close to 1/4 inch per five yards. There fore 35=1/4 inch, 30= 1/2 inch, 25=3/4 inch, etc. In shooting past your point on the same concept is used except you look thru your arrow and gap the top arc over the spot, again this figures out to about 1/4 inch per 5 yards. You have to shoot with both eyes open to look thru the arrow. If you are having trouble understanding looking thru the arrow then put your thumb up and cover up a stump in the distance. with both eyes open you can still see the stump and your thumb will be a blur in your secondary vision. The hardest part of understanding this gap concept is being able to visualize the dot being 30" in front of your eye rather than 35 yards away. And for those of you who condider themselves just hunters it is amazing how accurate and fast you can get to your gap in the woods. I know this will sound confusing to a lot of you and some will never understand the dot being 30" from your eye rather than 35 yards away. I will be more than happy to answer questions about this post because without a doubt this is the most accurate nonsight method ever used.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> In a true gap system, you never know where the tip of the arrow is pointing, except at your point on.


I gotta disagree!

I always know that the tip of my arrow is pointing somewhere at the vertical line through the center of the target. The tip will be pointing at an approximate distance below the target, at it or above it...depending on the target's distance.

There are actually multiple ways to Gap. Some archers gap off of their risers, some use their arrow tip, some use both and than some will gap the distance at the target in inches and others will gap at the arrow tip.

There isn't just one way to Gap.

Ray :shade:


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm an unrepentant gap shooter. Shooting longbow I use the side plate. I use multiples and fractions of that and arrow diameters. Its similar to rsarns method. But using something like that or figuring inches above or below the spot, whatever, its all gaps. And really the way I see it gap is actually a Point of Aim system, but your gaps direct you to the correct point of aim for any given yardage. (Its an algorithm for deriving accurate solutions to ballistic trajectories.) 
Anyway if you're concerned that you have wound up just simply accidentally memorizing a single point of aim that works for one specific target, the solution is easy. Switch target faces and/or move to a different yardage. You can begin to learn the different gaps for the different yardages.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Aiming techniques are primarily defined and are categorized by what the archer is visually focusing on and is consciously or unconsciously using while aiming!

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black and Bender{ sounds like a good name for a power tool line.lol} The methods of aiming you are describing are no more than a point of aim system . In no way, shape, or form are they gap systems no matter what you call them. And history has proven them to be inferior aiming systems in the court of competition. A rose by any other name is still a rose.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black and Bender{ sounds like a good name for a power tool line.lol}


LOL...it kind of does :wink:



itbeso said:


> The methods of aiming you are describing are no more than a point of aim system.


Basically...yes....because we are going by what the OP is currently doing and trying to show him how to make the transition from that aiming technique to Gap Aiming.



itbeso said:


> In no way, shape, or form are they gap systems no matter what you call them.


One way a person can look at this...is every aiming technique is basically based on a gap somewhere in some shape or form unless the archer is shooting at their POD.



itbeso said:


> And history has proven them to be inferior aiming systems in the court of competition. A rose by any other name is still a rose.


Please explain what you're basing that opinion on?

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, I'm glad you took the black and bender thing in the fun manner it was meant to be. People can't see the smile when some things are posted here. AS far as this gap is concerned, it is the gap that has been used to set most nfaa field records as well as the aiming method that has won more nonsight tournaments ever. In addition it has been used to harvest a large number of big game and lots of not so big game:angel:The problem I have found in trying to teach it to people is that it sounds complicated when in reality it is just the opposite. The hardest part is getting people to visualize the spot 30" in front of their face instesd of off in the distance. Just for a laugh, give it a try and let me know how you fare.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, I'm glad you took the black and bender thing in the fun manner it was meant to be.


I usually have a pretty good idea when someone is trying to be friendly funny like you were and when someone is trying to be a little mean and scarcastic.



itbeso said:


> AS far as this gap is concerned, it is the gap that has been used to set most nfaa field records as well as the aiming method that has won more nonsight tournaments ever.


How did you determine that?



itbeso said:


> The hardest part is getting people to visualize the spot 30" in front of their face instesd of off in the distance. Just for a laugh, give it a try and let me know how you fare.


No need to do it for laughs....because it's already the primary way I aim :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Just wanted to add that what makes this particular gap system so accurate is that your first arrow is never a "finder" arrow.Every arrow you shoot is based on the fraction of an inch gap 30"s from your eye and always gapping from your aiming spot to the arc of the arrow so it doesn't matter whether you are on an unfamiliar bale or an animal target you haven't seen the only thing you concentrate on is the gap between the aiming spot and the arc of the arrow. IF YOU KNOW WHERE THE ARROW TIP IS POINTED, THEN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. Sorry for yelling, I just wanted to get that particular point( no pun intended) across.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> IF YOU KNOW WHERE THE ARROW TIP IS POINTED, THEN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.


If an archer can see and know what their gap is for a particular target while aiming...than they basically know where the arrow tip is pointed.

When you gap...is your arrow tip pointed to the left of the target, right of the target or through the center line of the target?

I think you need to explain your opinion better.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, I Used to shoot with all the past nonsight shooters . I got to know them and their methods of shooting well. Except for Alan Eagleton's traditional record, most of the NFAA records are quite old.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, I Used to shoot with all the past nonsight shooters . I got to know them and their methods of shooting well. Except for Alan Eagleton's traditional record, most of the NFAA records are quite old.


Fair enough...so the majority of record holders in NFAA Field Rounds were Gap Aiming and not String or Face Walking?

I personally believe Gap Aiming is the BEST ALL AROUND aiming technique if an archer was to only choose only one for bowhunting, 3D, Field Rounds or basically any other archery tournament.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If an archer can see and know what their gap is for a particular target while aiming...than they basically know where the arrow tip is pointed.
> 
> When you gap...is your arrow tip pointed to the left of the target, right of the target or the ceter line through the target?
> 
> ...


Black, Go back and read my original post. I state that most archers put the tip of their arrow on a predetermined spot for a particular distance. In the gap system that I am trying to explain here, the archer only looks at the fraction of an inch gap between the spot and the arrow. The actual gap distance is the focal point, and the arrow and spot are secondary in your vision. The way i try to show people the relationship is to have them hold an arrow pointed somewhere under a target, let's say 40 yards away. I then bring down another arrow point right above their point until my point is touching the spot in their field of view. The distance between their tip and mine is the "gap". It is always in fractions of an inch and always only 30" from your face.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, for some of the forum users that might not know. The barebow division allows string walking, face walking , long stabilizer, level and compound bows. The bowhunter division allows compounds, 12" stabilizer, one anchor, and either split or 3 under(as a reference, all records were shot three under). The trad division is recurve only, split or 3 under, no stabilizer or adde weight except a bow quiver extending no more than 8" in front of bow.All the records in trad were also set with 3 under. These are all referencing NFAA divisions and records.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, Go back and read my original post.


I have...BUT..your statement as it stands about not knowing where the arrow tip is pointed is still wrong and can be confusing for some new archers. 

If an archer is aware of their gap between the arrow tip and the target...than they also know where the arrow is pointed. 

An archer doesn't need to be using Point of Aim to know where the arrow tip is pointed....or do you disgaree?

You didn't answer my question about where your arrow tip is pointed in regards to left, right or center when you aim.



itbeso said:


> It is always in fractions of an inch and always only 30" from your face.


Are you saying that the gap is never an 1" or more between the arrow tip and target at 30" from the archer's face?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> All the records in trad were also set with 3 under. These are all referencing NFAA divisions and records.


I'm not surprised by that at all.

Makes sense.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> The barebow division allows string walking, face walking , long stabilizer, level and compound bows.


Most String or Face Walkers use Point of Aim for many of their shots.

Are you trying to say String and Face Walkers Gap only? I don't think you are...just making sure.

How did the scores compare between String/Face Walkers and the Gappers?

Ray :shade:


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## Hasbro (Jul 5, 2003)

Well I just got back in from gapping Itbeso syle... I tell you, I'm going to use it!

I shoot full length arrows with a very high, cheek bone, anchor. My PO is 27yrds... wanted a 25 yrd PO but couldn't get there. The biggest problem that I was having is this makes my 10 to 15 yrd gap 10 inches (my way). To me this is a hard to manage gap... as most close 3D shots are small targets. On these close shots I would POA... Count down 10 inches, put my tip on the stick, rock or blade of grass & loose. Typically successful, but unnerving. 
When I aimed the way Itbeso says, my 10-15 yrd gap is 1 inch. 5yrd=5/8th in. 20yrd= 5/8th in. etc... very easy to manage out to my PO, With a lot less to think about!!

It started getting dark/dusk when I tried to "look thru" the arrow out past my PO... The tip would blur too much to see in my peripheral vision. I'm going to work on this in the light & shade during daylight hours to see if this will work for me... esp for 3D. My hunting max is 25 yrds and won't be affected.

BW... String walking & face walking are not allowed for 3D in our area. I don't know about FITA & other.

The switch was easy... Thanks Itbeso!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Hasbro, thanks for the nice words and thanks for trying the system. I'm assuming that you shoot 3-d mainly because you stated you wanted to get you point on down to 25 yards. At 27 yard point on your short gaps should be pretty tight. Here's another part to the equation. If you are used to using measuring tapes and are very familiar with what 1/4 inch or 1 inch looks like then you will probably be calling your gaps correctly, distance wise. however, if you are not familiar with fractions of an inch and are thinking 1/4 inch is really 1/2 inch it doesn't matter as long as you call your gaps the same everytime.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jeff - 

Deliberately not reading the previous posts. 

With new shooters, I see how they do "instinctively" as a baseline or reference point. Then I switch them to a POA system. It's simpler than gaping and removes a variable. I can either move the POA or the target to get the arrows in the bulls eye. That usually makes the shooters feel better, but all I really looking for are groups. 

From there, I will either wean them off the POA, with a gap/split vision tact and then back to "instinctive" (the difference is really just a matter or degrees and where or on what the shooter is focusing), or go over to a formal (albeit fabricated) sight. 

As far as hunting, you shoot from a tree stand or blind, a modified POA can work really well, for still hunting (walking around), maybe not so much. 

Please remember that most archers are in a state of evolution, in ability and style or method. 

Best advice I can give you is to just go with the flow and see where "it" takes you. Sometimes how we end up doing something finds us and not the other way around.

Viper1 out.


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

itbeso...I think IM gonna give GAP a try tomorrow. Ive always considered the way I aim now a kinda mix between Point-On and GAP...but I understand what you mean. My Point On distance is 25yrds and at 30 yrds I have to basically have to put my arrow tip about 10" higher ( deers back) ....but as you explain it ...if Im concentrating on just the GAP between the vitals and the arrow shaft from my point of view is only about an inch.....it just might simplify aiming a little more. Thanks for the tip and/or explanation.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have only truely gapped once and that was in the middle of a FITA when I found that I could not shoot my bow three under, as needed to get my point on the target at 50 meters. I switch to split finger gap with a gap of about on inch relative to the bottom of the number sign below the target. As an emergency tactic, it worked fine. I think I was able to do it because I was very accustomed to POA, so I was basically following Viper1's process, sort of. I had a new bow tillered for three under for my next FITA. I am going to experiment more with gap this summer. I am considering whether to continue to stringwalk or switch to gap for disciplines with mixed distances such as field and 3D.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Most String or Face Walkers use Point of Aim for many of their shots.
> 
> Are you trying to say String and Face Walkers Gap only? I don't think you are...just making sure.
> 
> ...


Black, Stringwalkers and face walkers generally do so to get a point on at every distance so technically these methods are very accurate and for the most part they do not use gapping in their style. In my experience, gapping is used mainly in the bowhunter and trad classes. On the question of knowing where the arrow tip is pointing again if you are looking where the arrow tip is pointed then you are not focusing solely on the distance between your arrow and the spot, bringing the spot back to you. The spot and arrow tip are not focal points, only the distance between them 30' inches from your face. I set my bow up so that I shoot down the middle of the arrow at my point on. Depending on your point on, you may have to cant slightly more on the shorter target and generally you will have to start aiming slightly left of center the farther you shoot. As far as gaps, a lot of that depends on your bow speed and at what distance your point on is. With a compound, the five yard increments will generally only be 1/8 inch difference, however with stickbows I have found them to be about 1/4"per five yards.Re: your question about whether your gap will ever be more than 1", it depends on your point on. If you are point on past forty yards then, yes, your gaps will be wider at short distance.In the west, trad shooters are still shooting NFAA distances at all the local marked distances so it very common for them to shoot up to 100 yards. I know that most of our fellow stickbowers on here are more geared to ibo and asa type shoots, so they are more likely to be set up at point on under 30 yards. My whole objective in posting was to get people off the point of aim so they weren't guessing on their first shot all the time( especiall since we only get one shot in unmarked.lol) As far as gappers vs. string walkers, technically the string walker should win that battle every time but there were stretches of 5-6 years when the bowhunters beat the barebowers every year at the NFAA nationals.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Some good stuff here, you have to remember like all aiming methods some people just are not suited to Gap as are some people just not suited to Instinctive.


Gap starts of very visual and conscious learning process,during this learning stage accuracy is average at best,it isn't till you start transfering the Gaps from visual/conscious toan awareness/subconscious will you see your accuracy improve and groups shrink. 

I found the fastest way to ingrain my gaps is to shoot a known size NFAA face either Hunter or Indoor blue face at know distances, start at 5 yards and moving back 5 yards after every shot,this builds a very good subconscious map of your Gaps at each distance, I also use it to maintain my Gaps on a regular basis 2-3 times a week. 

You can also work out your point on, shoot a very large boss, always shooting point on from 10ys back to correct point on,then measure the arrow spread for each distance,when you reverse the arrow spread its basically your Gap below the target i.e when you shot 20y as point on distance and was say 20" above spot your gap should be 20" below spot

Another method is to Gap off Riser by putting thin strips of tape for 10y, 20y, 30y 40y etc after a few weeks shooting remove the tape and visualize the riser Gaps.

I dont know if others do this but I tend to set my Gap and the forget about it (confident its good) and switch all my focus on spot, kind of blending the best parts of both Gap and Instinct methods.

Hope this helps:thumbs_up


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Hmmm, I think it be so. 
This is the kind of explanation of the gap system that I was looking for when another member asked the question in his thread a few days ago. When he didn't get a real answer to his question I tried unsuccessfully to generate a discussion on the topic but since I am a long time instinctive shooter I guess I just did not know the right questions to ask to stir it up.

I watched a video once where this method was mentioned briefly and I thought at the time that it sounded like an interesting idea but never really tried it out more than just out of curiosity and then more or less forgot about it.

I have to agree with blackwolf here. If you are aware of the arc of the arrow and the spot at the same time then it seems that it would be hard to not notice the relationship between it and the target.

How does arrow length affect this system? In my world all arrows are too short to be used for aiming.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Steve, My method varies a little from yours re: ingraining the gaps in my brain. I like to spend a lot of time in practice only shooting 1 or two or three gaps per day. I feel that by shooting 1 yardage over ond over , the gap really get imbedded and your confidence level rises, and the more confidence you have in your gap the better you will shoot that arrow. It is a little more boring but The end result is usually a good one.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Forest, In my experience most gap shooters shoot a longer arrow than normal, this accomplishes two things. First the longer the arrow(assuming we are talking about the same size arrow) the shorter your point on will be because you are holding a longer arrow lower when aiming , than a shorter arrow. Secondly, by using a longer arrow to get your point on shorter, your short gaps will tighten up because the tip of the arrow extends farther towards the target


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Hmmm, I think it be so.
> This is the kind of explanation of the gap system that I was looking for when another member asked the question in his thread a few days ago. When he didn't get a real answer to his question I tried unsuccessfully to generate a discussion on the topic but since I am a long time instinctive shooter I guess I just did not know the right questions to ask to stir it up.
> 
> I watched a video once where this method was mentioned briefly and I thought at the time that it sounded like an interesting idea but never really tried it out more than just out of curiosity and then more or less forgot about it.
> ...


Forest, as I was trying to explain to black, you only concentrate on the distance between the spot and your arrow tip, do not look directly at the spot and do not look to see where the arrow tip is pointing If you will concentrate on that gap distance only, I guarantee you will not know where the arrow tip is. Good luck.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> How does arrow length affect this system? In my world all arrows are too short to be used for aiming.


Longer the arrow shorter the Gap becomes, obviously arrow weight plays a part also, as I shoot IFAA Field/3D to 80/60y max I use a 28" for a 60y point on, for shot shots I either shoot instinctively or gap off riser,all depends on if I'm shooting Longbow split or Recurve 3 under. 

Fita 3D is tough challenge for me having big Gaps (33y max) but I seem to manage Ok, I dont shoot enough Fita 3D (2-3 tourneys a year) to warrant a setup adjustment to get a shorter point on.


45# Longbow shot split finger with 28" 460g wood arrow gives me 60y point on, 40# ILF Recurve shot 3 under with 28" 300g carbon arrow gives me 60y point on, less confusion when I switch between bows/styles.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, In my experience most gap shooters shoot a longer arrow than normal, this accomplishes two things. First the longer the arrow(assuming we are talking about the same size arrow) the shorter your point on will be because you are holding a longer arrow lower when aiming , than a shorter arrow. Secondly, by using a longer arrow to get your point on shorter, your short gaps will tighten up because the tip of the arrow extends farther towards the target


Yea, that I already know. Now all I need is an arrow stretcher. Actuually I now have a source for 34in woodies and noticed the point on at about 40yds,which happens to be tha same as the example you used. But when I moved a few yards closer the gap was huge. I did not bother to measure it, just pronounced it useless and moved on.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, as I was trying to explain to black, you only concentrate on the distance between the spot and your arrow tip, do not look directly at the spot and do not look to see where the arrow tip is pointing If you will concentrate on that gap distance only, I guarantee you will not know where the arrow tip is. Good luck.


So, you're talking about focusing on the space between the two as opposed to focusing on the spot.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

l


FORESTGUMP said:


> So, you're talking about focusing on the space between the two as opposed to focusing on the spot.


Correct, at all times


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> On the question of knowing where the arrow tip is pointing again if you are looking where the arrow tip is pointed then you are not focusing solely on the distance between your arrow and the spot, bringing the spot back to you.


I don't need to solely focus on the gap. I focus on the target...yet I'm aware of my gap in my periphial vision and where my arrow is pointing. This is how many experienced Gap shooters end up shooting....after they have mastered their gaps.



itbeso said:


> I set my bow up so that I shoot down the middle of the arrow at my point on. Depending on your point on, you may have to cant slightly more on the shorter target and generally you will have to start aiming slightly left of center the farther you shoot.


I don't have to do any of that. My arrow is ALWAYS pointed at the centerline through the target...whether my arrow point is above, below or on the target.

If an archer has to change their windage when they shoot at a distance different from their POD...they may be shooting arrows that are slightly to weak or to stiff.

My POD is at 100yrds. and I bareshaft out to that distance for fun sometimes and I can always group my arrows or at least place them near the centerline through the target with bareshafts at most distances within reason. I also don't need to point my arrow any place but at the centerline through the target....no matter what the target's distance is.

The ONLY time I don't aim at the centerline through the target are on real windy days when I'm shooting at long distances.



itbeso said:


> My whole objective in posting was to get people off the point of aim so they weren't guessing on their first shot all the time( especiall since we only get one shot in unmarked.lol)


If an archer is good at guessing distance...they don't need to guess at their first shot...whether they aim using Point of Aim, Gap or ANY aiming technique. They just need to know what their gaps are and than set their sight picture for the aiming technique they're using.



itbeso said:


> but there were stretches of 5-6 years when the bowhunters beat the barebowers every year at the NFAA nationals.


Nice piece of history.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> you have to remember like all aiming methods some people just are not suited to Gap as are some people just not suited to Instinctive.


:thumbs_up



steve morley said:


> Gap starts of very visual and conscious learning process,during this learning stage accuracy is average at best,it isn't till you start transfering the Gaps from visual/conscious toan awareness/subconscious will you see your accuracy improve and groups shrink.


:thumbs_up



steve morley said:


> Another method is to Gap off Riser by putting thin strips of tape for 10y, 20y, 30y 40y etc after a few weeks shooting remove the tape and visualize the riser Gaps.


:thumbs_up There is NOT only one way to gap.



steve morley said:


> I dont know if others do this but I tend to set my Gap and the forget about it (confident its good) and switch all my focus on spot, kind of blending the best parts of both Gap and Instinct methods.


:thumbs_up Me too! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> re: ingraining the gaps in my brain. I like to spend a lot of time in practice only shooting 1 or two or three gaps per day. I feel that by shooting 1 yardage over ond over , the gap really get imbedded and your confidence level rises, and the more confidence you have in your gap the better you will shoot that arrow. It is a little more boring but The end result is usually a good one.


I find this GREAT for beginners...but how an archer learns and practices their gaps is also dependent upon an archer's personality and ability as evident by the way Steve and I practice and itbeso practices.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Itbeso:

I can't for the life of me get a PO under 50yds without shooting over 9gpp and having a ballistic arc to the target. Its extremely difficult to manage that gap at the closer shots.

Any hots tips for getting a closer PO besides the obvious. I'm already shooting 32" arrows and as high an anchor as possible.
I'd love to be right at 40yds.

-Grant


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I don't need to solely focus on the gap. I focus on the target...yet I'm aware of my gap in my periphial vision and where my arrow is pointing. This is how many experienced Gap shooters end up shooting....after they have mastered their gaps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Black, I thought you were interested in some intelligent dicussion but your post seems to bely that. Just for the benefit of posters on here wanting to get serious information, I will respond to your post.If you don't need to focus on the gap for you level of shooting, fine, you'll stay at your level of shooting. I don't know what that level is but if ray cook is your real name, I've never heard that name in any winners circle.When a barebow type shooter brings his arrow back to his faceto shoot it is invariably on a different line to the target than the eyes line of sight, ergo it is impossible for an archer to aim down the center at every yardage. You say your point on is 100 yards. I'm almost suspecting that you are a fita style shooter as any nonsight shooter with a 100 yard point would be worthless in a skill contest. Your comment about guessing yardage shows another lack of knowledge. I have shot IBO and ASA tournaments and won them at the highest level of competition ie; pro and most 3-der's don't guess yardage, they JUDGE it. With that said I defy anyone to be able to judge 12' low or high on a target 30 yards away and get them right on every time. A 1/4 gap 30" in front of your face is infinitely more accurate. For anyone else wanting to get in a pissing contest, i will only answer posts from archers who really want to learn a better way to shoot their bow.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Any hots tips for getting a closer PO besides the obvious. I'm already shooting 32" arrows and as high an anchor as possible.
> I'd love to be right at 40yds.


Have you tried gapping off the riser?

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Itbeso:
> 
> I can't for the life of me get a PO under 50yds without shooting over 9gpp and having a ballistic arc to the target. Its extremely difficult to manage that gap at the closer shots.
> 
> ...


Grantmac, You didn't say what style you were shooting, what arrow, split or 3 under. Can you relay that info?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, I thought you were interested in some intelligent dicussion but your post seems to bely that.


So that fact that I'm disagreeing with you on some points makes this conversation unintelligent?



itbeso said:


> If you don't need to focus on the gap for you level of shooting, fine, you'll stay at your level of shooting. I don't know what that level is but if ray cook is your real name, I've never heard that name in any winners circle.


Why would I hide my real name?

Funny things is...Steve Morley and I use the Gap Aiming technique nearly if not exactly the same way....so because I've never gone to any world class competition my opinion doesn't count? Sad you feel that way and act like that what I'm sharing is worthless.



itbeso said:


> When a barebow type shooter brings his arrow back to his faceto shoot it is invariably on a different line to the target than the eyes line of sight, ergo it is impossible for an archer to aim down the center at every yardage.


That shows your limited frame of knowledge...because I do and there are other archers I know of that do. 



itbeso said:


> You say your point on is 100 yards. I'm almost suspecting that you are a fita style shooter as any nonsight shooter with a 100 yard point would be worthless in a skill contest.


Nope. My primary competition is 3D tournaments and based on what I'm sharing below...my skill is far from worthless :wink:

I've won nearly 95% of EVERY 3D archery competion I've enetered...which is nearly 100 different competitions over 20+ years...and the competitions I haven't won...I placed in the top 3 nearly 99% of the time.

This year...I've already won EVERY 3D competition I've competed in...but I'm sure non of what I just shared will mean anything to you...because it won't meet your standards of going to a world level competition.



itbeso said:


> 3-der's don't guess yardage, they JUDGE it.


What's the difference between guessing yardage and judgeing it?

I'm sorry that you're getting all bent out of shape because I'm disagreeing with you on some points.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, Disagreement and info share is what AT is all about. It seemed to me that your post was a put down of my concepts. If not, then i will be man enough to apologize. Congrats on all your 3-d wins and contrary to what you say about my thoughts on your shooting skill I generally never give that aspect of another archer any more importance than anything else . My only reason for extended posting tonight was to help other archers witha proven aiming system. Obviously your system fits you andI'm cool with that. One size does not fit all or something like that.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> ergo it is impossible for an archer to aim down the center at every yardage.


I dont have any issues with this all my gaps are down the center at every yardage, maybe I'm just a freak of Archery,I do know a few that say thay have to aim off on longer shots but not me.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I dont have any issues with this all my gaps are down the center at every yardage, maybe I'm just a freak of Archery lol


LOL...no, Steve. If you're a freak...than I'm a freak :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I dont have any issues with this all my gaps are down the center at every yardage, maybe I'm just a freak of Archery lol


Steve, a lot of the aiming off is determined by how far you are shooting, My point on is 40 yds and I have to start aiming off center at about 55 yds. From your posts I felt like you were shooting shorter distances thann that.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> It seemed to me that your post was a put down of my concepts.


Far from it. I'm supporting your concept!!!!! but I'm just disagreeing with some of your statements.



itbeso said:


> My only reason for extended posting tonight was to help other archers witha proven aiming system.


That's my goal too. I just like to clear up any confusion. I'm not the best at always being able to express my thoughts...and I know others are in the same boat as I am.

Just don't take it personally like I'm trying to attack you if I disagree with you.



itbeso said:


> One size does not fit all or something like that.


That's all I'm basically trying to share. There is NOT just one way to aim Gap.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso I shoot mostly IFAA Field to 80y and IFAA 3D to 60y and my point on is 60y, for 70y and 80y Rec I use arrow shelf below flipper rest as it keeps my Gap still on the target face, with Longbow I imagine a 1 target face above real one and pick my spot above the target.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> itbeso I shoot mostly IFAA Field to 80y and IFAA 3D to 60y and my point on is 60y, for 70y and 80y Rec I use arrow shelf below flipper rest as it keeps my Gap still on the target face, with Longbow I imagine a 1 target face above real one and pick my spot above the target.


steve, just as a matter of info for me, what division do you compete in?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

IFAA Recurve Bowhunter Div, Any Rec, 12" stab allowed no Face or Stringwalking allowed,for Longbow a 'D' shape when strung (i.e no hybrids) Longbow, split finger, wood arrows they've allowed facewalking now in Longbow. I shoot both Divs depending on my mood.

Fita 3D for Rec Instinctive div wood riser Rec either off the shelf or simple Hoyt rest, no Stabs and 3 under allowed. I will likely shoot Longbow at this years European Fita 3D's as my Pinncale doesn't meet Fita rules anymore.


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

I appreciate all the informative posts. Maybe it's because I am only on my first cup of coffee but I am more confused now than I was before. Itbeso tried to clearly explain his method but unfortunately I am not grasping it. I will go out later and figure out where my POD is. From there, I will read and re-read this thread and hopefully make sense of it


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## barebowguy (Feb 1, 2009)

Itbeso
If your point on is 40 yards how do you shoot anything further than that?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

mrjeffro said:


> I appreciate all the informative posts. Maybe it's because I am only on my first cup of coffee but I am more confused now than I was before. Itbeso tried to clearly explain his method but unfortunately I am not grasping it. I will go out later and figure out where my POD is. From there, I will read and re-read this thread and hopefully make sense of it



If we can keep this topic from getting derailed I believe that his method will become clearer soon. I'm like you and have never been able to see the small gap that I have heard about. Maybe it's an optical illusion. But I can certainly believe that it's possible to imagine the target as sitting right on the tip of the arrow and change the visual perspective. Our eyes and brains are capable of amazing things sometimes.

Guys let's try to keep this going and explore the idea with an open mind. It sounds to me like a good method that could help LOTS of people around here who seem to be struggling with the aiming part of shooting their bow. That frustration probably causes quite a few to give up. 
This method is not totally new to me but I will admit I never did spend much time investigating it. I'm pretty sure that anyoone who has read in the forum much knows my position on complicated aiming methods. Perhaps I do make fun of the yardage guessing and tape measure methods but hey, this method doesn't involve a tape measure. 

Really,it seems like a very good system. Now we just have to learn how to use our imagination to move the target to that majical place 30 inches in front of our face. I do believe that could be difficult to grasp. We'll see.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Grantmac, You didn't say what style you were shooting, what arrow, split or 3 under. Can you relay that info?


NFAA Trad, 3-under.
40# limbs, 32" 300gr arrows doing ~200FPS.
A high an anchor as I can get (I've got prominent cheeks and fairly close-set eyes).

My gaps are all down the center, I tune the bow so they are that way.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The difference between the 2 different Gap Aiming techniques being discussed here is how and where the gaps are being measured and perceived.

In one method that gaps are being perceieved and measured at the target. For example an archer holding a foot below the target while at full draw is adjusting the gap between the arrow tip and the target...at the target.

Now an archer perceiving their gaps at the riser will recognize that same gap in inches or a fraction an inch. 

Does that help anyone trying to understand this?

Ray :shade:


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## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

Please explain aiming, with the ARC of the arrow.


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## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

(Now, instead of looking at where the arrow tip is pointing, look at the distance between the top arc of your arrow tip and the spot that you have mentally brought back and placed over the.)

This is what I don't understand, what is sight picture we are looking at (top arc of arrow tip).

Sorry for being dumb, but I want to understand this.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

tic - 

It's actually a pretty old technique. You shoot at a given distance long enough and by trail and error you figure what the trajectory looks like to hit your target. The then imagine that trajectory while at anchor. However, super-imposing the imaginary trajectory with the expected trajectory sort of implies that you know the end point (target center) and the launch point. (Oh yeah, that would be the arrow, wouldn't it?)

Instead of visualizing the physical distance from the intended impact point to the arrow tip, you see the expected trajectory. But that pesky arrow is still being referenced. 

That also assumes that you can see the arrow in flight and that it has a trajectory sufficient to be seen. 

Viper1 out.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> tic -
> 
> It's actually a pretty old technique. You shoot at a given distance long enough and by trail and error you figure what the trajectory looks like to hit your target. The then imagine that trajectory while at anchor. However, super-imposing the imaginary trajectory with the expected trajectory sort of implies that you know the end point (target center) and the launch point. (Oh yeah, that would be the arrow, wouldn't it
> 
> ...



No, I don't think that's what he is saying at all.
Just for information,it seems that the bow is the launch point and the arrow is being launched.:wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

tichound said:


> (Now, instead of looking at where the arrow tip is pointing, look at the distance between the top arc of your arrow tip and the spot that you have mentally brought back and placed over the.)
> 
> This is what I don't understand, what is sight picture we are looking at (top arc of arrow tip).
> 
> Sorry for being dumb, but I want to understand this.



As do I. I know he said to focus on the space between the arrow tip and the target in place of focusing on one or the other. That's the easy part. I'm thinking that by focusing there a different sight picture is created causing the target to appear close to the eyes. That seems to be the not so easy part.

It's raining at my house today so I have not gone out to play. I have given some thought to this while shooting in the past but when I failed to see the sight picture that is supposed to be there I just forgot about it untill it was mentioned again in the thread.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Here's a good thread on the topic of Gap Aiming that Jimmy Blackmon started. Has a great video of him explaining someo f the Gap Aiming techniques.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1733639

What exactly is it that some of you are struggling to understand? Please be as specific as possible.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Here's a good thread on the topic of Gap Aiming that Jimmy Blackmon started. Has a great video of him explaining someo f the Gap Aiming techniques.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1733639
> 
> ...



Good enough information about the arrow stuff but has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. It's not the same as the Blackmon gap system.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Good enough information about the arrow stuff but has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. It's not the same as the Blackmon gap system.


Asking questions often teaches....so how is Jimmy's description of Gap Aiming different than what itbeso is describing?

Also...what are the similarities?

And how does an archer make gapping easier for typical or closer distances?

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Asking questions often teaches....so how is Jimmy's description of Gap Aiming different than what itbeso is describing?
> 
> Also...what are the similarities?
> 
> ...



Haha,that's funny stuff right ther.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

You might also take a look at this Jimmy video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgm-oErUEQM


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Gentlemen, I'm back for a short while and will be happy to explain any questions you might have. Referencing several of the posts today , I have to make some comments. 1, this gap system is nothing like anyone else on archerytalk has ever described and certainly nothing like Jimmy Blackmon uses.TICHBOUND- I am nor aiming with the arc of the arrow. When you are at full draw , the part of the arrow that is most visible to you is your arrow tip which forms an arc because you certainly can't see the bottom of the tip. This is the arc I am referring to and it is used only as a reference point , along with the dot to gauge your gap, again this is done 30" in front of your face and in fractions of an inch ,not in inches or feet up at the target.GRANTMAC-From the information you have supplied, what is wrong with shooting a much heavier arrow to get your point on down. Most of the stickbowers on this site seem to have a point on down in the 30yards or under catergory. In my opinion, if your 32"arrows are only weighing 300 grains then they would seem to me to way too light in spine. Also, 300 grains is a very light arrow to be shooting with fingers. I have always felt that a heavier arrow was much more forgiving with fingers.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

itbeso said:


> .GRANTMAC-From the information you have supplied, what is wrong with shooting a much heavier arrow to get your point on down. Most of the stickbowers on this site seem to have a point on down in the 30yards or under catergory. In my opinion, if your 32"arrows are only weighing 300 grains then they would seem to me to way too light in spine. Also, 300 grains is a very light arrow to be shooting with fingers. I have always felt that a heavier arrow was much more forgiving with fingers.


Hmmmmmm so all those archers shooting FITA/Field and target long distances, using ACC's ACE's and my favorite from CX in the 285-300 gr range are wrong? I was told by another long time finger shooter that you couldn't shoot pin nocks with fingers... then I went out and broke the State record that stood for 12 years.... Hmmmmmm Once again, advice is good but not necessarily for everybody. Not trying to argue or disagree, as I am just saying I like lighter arrows, and they work for me. Just like heavier limbs make a release easier or more forgiving, so do heavy arrows.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

tichound said:


> Please explain aiming, with the ARC of the arrow.


The way Rod Jenkins explained it to us was pretty simple...so for example...

First you find your P.O.D. (Point On Distance)...he used 40yds for an easy "round" example..then whatever it is?..you cut that in 1/2 and gap it out..in this case?..1/2 of 40yds is 20yds and that would be the peak arc of your arrow and now you find that gap at 20yds..and for ease of explaination?..lets say while your POD is 40yds and your Gap at 20yds turned out to be holding 10"s low?...now you know that your gaps at both 10yds and 30yds would be to hold 5"s low...15yds and 25yds?...you hold 7.5 inches low...5yds and 35yds?..2.5"s low...follow?...hope that helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns, There are always exceptions to every rule but you seem to be in an argumentative mood so I will speak bluntly, Brady Ellison-380 x-10s, 120 grain point, over 400 grain arrow- number one finger shooter in the world. Alan Eagleton- US fita field champion 2012- 400 grain arrows. Ben Rogers- US fita field trials champion 2012 - 360 plus grain arrows. It isn't much of a secret among the best finger shooters in the world that the heavier arrow they can shoot, the more forgiving a bad release will be. I have never heard anyone say that you can't shoot pin nocks with fingers as most olympic shooters in the word do just that. I really don't want to argue or put anyone in their place, let's talk about the gap system


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jinkster, we are not discussing point of aim here which is what some of you want to call a gap system. If you are looking at where the point of your arrow is pointing, you are using a point of aim.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> this gap system is nothing like anyone else on archerytalk has ever described and certainly nothing like Jimmy Blackmon uses.


I gotta disagree...and sure hope noone gets bent out of shape because we're having an adult conversation while trying to understand one another. Several of us have already described it...but some of the terms and word usuage are being ignored or being confused, IMO.

Maybe there are some small nuances that are slighlty different with what I and a few others have tried to share about Gap Aiming and the different ways an archer can use a gap.

Basic Gap Aiming is NOT necessarily measured at 30" from any specific reference point...BUT...itbeso's technique may specifically call for that. If that is true..than I will agree to it being a specific nuance unique to his technique which seems to than require all archers to cut their arrows so that the tips of the arrows are 30" from his reference point.

Basic Gap Aiming takes into acount the different arrow lengths an archer may choose to use....so depending on the archer and the length arrows they are using...the gap can be measured between the arrow and target at whatever distance the eye is from the tip of the arrow.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, you impish little devil. I used 30" as a generic distance, of course there are going to be 29" arroiws, 31 "arrows, etc. 30 was used just to explain the system.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

done here


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm a pretty darn successful 3D shooter (State NFAA champ), I couldn't do that with slow arrows. They make estimating distance a much more critical process, especially past 30yds.

I'd LOVE to have a 30-35yd point on but I don't think that would happen with anything shorter than 36". My indoor arrows are 35.5" and 20GPP just to get them near the center of the target.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> I used 30" as a generic distance, of course there are going to be 29" arroiws, 31 "arrows, etc. 30 was used just to explain the system.


Now you should be able to see how it could be confusing to other archers unless you clarify. You shouldn't assume that your students will assume they know exactly what you're talking about.

These things need to be said for clarification....otherwise there can be confusion.

So how is your Gap Aiming technique different from what I've and a few others have shared...in regards to my explanation of perceiving the gap at the length of the arrow instead downrange at the target?

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I'm a pretty darn successful 3D shooter (State NFAA champ), I couldn't do that with slow arrows. They make estimating distance a much more critical process, especially past 30yds.
> 
> I'd LOVE to have a 30-35yd point on but I don't think that would happen with anything shorter than 36". My indoor arrows are 35.5" and 20GPP just to get them near the center of the target.
> 
> -Grant


I'm with you Grant...this cat references several oly archers and how they love heavier arrows cause they're more forgiving to reinforce his side of a debate in a gapping thread?...well there's three subtle differences..the oly crowd are shooting known yardages with sights and elevated rests and we're not..he's kinda dancing around there and not being real clear..odd thing is?..i think i understand what he's saying...he's not using just the point...i believe he's suggesting gapping off the entire arrow stem too stern and not just holding the point on a spot below the bull..whereby the visualized arc appears far smaller than a set point gap.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, You remind me of little johnny, and I know you know most of the little johnny jokes:wink:. This is the best example I can give you regarding the differences. If you were to hang a black ball in the air at 35 yards and then put a white sheet directly behind it I would defy anyone to consistently be able to pick their point of aim on that white background. Trying to figure out 10" or 14" down from the spot would not be very accurate, If you use the gap system as I have explained it, it would be very easy to se a 1/4" gap from the arrow to the spot, you don't need any background references with a gap system. Conversely, you very much need background references with a point of aim. Hope this clarifies it a little.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

tbeso, as a now 2 time NFAA National Champion at the Marked 3D at Redding in Longbow (where incidentally I broke Larry Yien's record this year) your contention that my method is somehow inferior doesn't hold water.
BTW what have you done lately?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jinkster, I only referenced one Olympic archer, Brady Ellison. The other two shooters competed in the US fita field trials of which half is unmarked distances. In addition, most 3-d courses for trad or long bow are max of 30 yards, if that. What in the world difference does a heavy arrow make at that distance?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender, congrats on your awards. I haven't used the word inferior to anyone on these threads and wouldn't. I AM trying to help a lot of archers on here to shoot better. The gap system that I advocate has been proven to be very accurate on many occasions , if it is not for you then good luck with your system.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, You remind me of little johnny, and I know you know most of the little johnny jokes:wink:


I actually don't know any of the little johnny jokes.



itbeso said:


> Trying to figure out 10" or 14" down from the spot would not be very accurate, If you use the gap system as I have explained it, it would be very easy to se a 1/4" gap from the arrow to the spot, you don't need any background references with a gap system.


I'm sorry...I still don't see any difference. As far as I can tell..it's no different than what I and a few others have explained when referencing the gap at the length of the arrow rather than down range at the target. The target is down range but the gap between the arrow tip and the target is perceived at the length of the arrow as you imagine and see the target right at the arrow tip instead of being in the background...downrange.

So how is it different?

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I actually don't know any of the little johnny jokes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Black, I am going to give you a refund on the class as I can't seem to explain the gap system to you.:darkbeer:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Black, teacher to little johnny " Johnny if there were 10 birds sitting on a wire and you shot one, how many would be left"? Little Johnny to teacher " none, if you shot one the others would fly away". Teacher " that's not correct, little johnny, there would be nine left, but I like the way you think". Little johnny to teacher "Ok teach, if there were 3 women in an ice cream shop with ice cream cones and one was licking her ice cream, one was eating her ice cream, and one was sucking on her ice cream, which one would be the married one"? Teacher to little johnny with a sly grin" I guess it would be the one sucking on her ice cream". little Johnny" No teach, it would be the one with the wedding ring, but, Ilike the way you think


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Good grief.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Black and Bender{ sounds like a good name for a power tool line.lol} The methods of aiming you are describing are no more than a point of aim system . In no way, shape, or form are they gap systems no matter what you call them. And history has proven them to be inferior aiming systems in the court of competition. A rose by any other name is still a rose.


Attempt at back pedalling = massive fail


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender said:


> Attempt at back pedalling = massive fail


bender, Please explain backpedaling.


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## tradbow12 (Jun 11, 2012)

Never said "INFERIOR", that quote above says different.


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## tradbow12 (Jun 11, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Bender, congrats on your awards. *I haven't used the word inferior* to anyone on these threads and wouldn't. I AM trying to help a lot of archers on here to shoot better. The gap system that I advocate has been proven to be very accurate on many occasions , if it is not for you then good luck with your system.


right here


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Tradbow12 and Bender, Read what I said before you come to argue. I said a point of aim system is inferior to this gap system. I never said ANYONE was inferior. And Bender, don't get too full of yourself . There is always someone out there who is bigger, better, faster and smarter than all of us. LIghten up.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, I am going to give you a refund on the class as I can't seem to explain the gap system to you.:darkbeer:


Do you really give up that easy when you're challenged to answer questions and explain your ideas in more detail?

I've described the Gap Aiming technique in 3 different ways on how to use it...and all I and a few others are doing is asking you to give us more detail about 'your' Gap Aiming technique so we can understand what you're trying to teach.

You say you're here to try and teach your technique....so teach it..and answer questions when they're asked.

If you don't want to answer them for me...than by all means answer them for the other people who still don't understand exactly what you're trying to teach.

Ray :shade:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Alan asked you a question earlier in the thread... you know him the guy who won the FITA FIeld and holds most of the NFAA Field records now, oh and won the indoor also... SO just curious, since in the finger shooting group you came in and busted everyones chops... and now you are here. So what have you done in archery, you talk about Redding and the lack of BB shooters... I was there ... were you?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do you really give up that easy when you're challenged to answer questions and explain your ideas in more detail?
> 
> I've described the Gap Aiming technique in 3 different ways on how use it...and all I and a few others are doing is asking you to give us more detail about 'your' Gap Aiming technique so we can understand what you're trying to teach.
> 
> ...


I'll be happy to answer Specific questions about the gap system. It seems that some people just want to get on here to let us know how many tournaments they've won . Other than yourself, I don't recall anyone asking specific questions lately.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> I'll be happy to answer Specific questions about the gap system. It seems that some people just want to get on here to let us know how many tournaments they've won . Other than yourself, I don't recall anyone asking specific questions lately.


That may be part of the problem. Some of them are not asking questions but basically saying they don't get it.

So how exactly is your description of Gap Aiming different than one of the explanations I gave for visualizing the gap as if the arrow tip and the target were directly above or below each other rather than referencing the distance between the 2 down range?

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

We have to keep in mind that although one aiming method may work very well for one person it may not for the next, one of the reasons we have slight variations of Gap shooting from seeing the Gap at the arrow or using the riser to seeing the gap at the target, they all work and none is more superiour just what works best for you.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns said:


> Alan asked you a question earlier in the thread... you know him the guy who won the FITA FIeld and holds most of the NFAA Field records now, oh and won the indoor also... SO just curious, since in the finger shooting group you came in and busted everyones chops... and now you are here. So what have you done in archery, you talk about Redding and the lack of BB shooters... I was there ... were you?


Rsarns, I missed the question from barebow guy. I just went back thru the posts and read his question. I don't feel that I have busted anyones chops, I hope not anyway. The purpose of this is to try to explain a very good method of aiming, not to tell anyone what I've done in archery. I've answered alan's question in a previous post where I explain gapping past your point on by "looking" thru the arrow and using the gap over the dot as you do under the dot.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Indeed, I'd like to know where your name is in the results and titles.

Perhaps you have written some literature which was published that laid-out the Gap system according to you in past that we've all be remiss in reading.

I'd also like to know how I'm supposed to reduce my PO distance without going to excessively heavy arrows, which do not work for NFAA Trad because it goes to 40yds.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> I'd also like to know how I'm supposed to reduce my PO distance without going to excessively heavy arrows, which do not work for NFAA Trad because it goes to 40yds.


Other than adjusting your form or technique to place the arrow directly under your eye...I'm not sure how much more you can reduce it.

Like I've said...I have a 100yrds. POD basically anchoring with my index finger in the corner of my mouth shooting Split Finger.

Alot of what you're going to be able to do...is based on your genetics.

I have a long face, a fairly long draw, shooting a 70lbs. bow, using 30 1/2" arrows at 8g./lbs.

I think it boils down to how bad you want to reduce your POD...because at some point...you'll have to make compromizes in your form, technique and equipment...if you really want to achieve it.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That may be part of the problem. They're not asking questions but basically saying they don't get it.
> 
> So how exactly is your description of Gap Aiming different than one of the explanations I gave for visualizing the gap as if the arrow tip and the target were directly above or below each other rather than referencing the distance between the 2 down range?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Black, again, as I understand your concept of a gap as being a distance below or above the downrange dot and trying to determine that distance from where you are shooting, then putting the point of your arrow on that location aand shooting. My gap is predicated upon bringing the spot back to you, visualizing it over the tip of your arrow and guaging what that distance is for a given yardage. That gap, approx. 30 inches from your face will be in fractions of an inch varying with the yardage you are shooting.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Black, again, as I understand your concept of a gap as being a distance below or above the downrange dot and trying to determine that distance from where you are shooting, then putting the point of your arrow on that location aand shooting.


That's NOT it at all!

I explained 3 DIFFERENT ways to Gap...and 2 of them were included in my previous question.

You seem to be totally over-looking it for some reason...or I'm being very unclear with my descriptions...which I don't think I have.



itbeso said:


> My gap is predicated upon bringing the spot back to you, visualizing it over the tip of your arrow and guaging what that distance is for a given yardage. That gap, approx. 30 inches from your face will be in fractions of an inch varying with the yardage you are shooting.


That's EXACTLY what I have described.

How are you missing one of my explanations for Gap when I mentioned it a few times in this thread and included it in the specific question I've been asking you about?

Are you just focusing on my previous explanation of Split Vision and Point of Aim to the OP about one of the ways they can make the transition from those to learning Gap?

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Indeed, I'd like to know where your name is in the results and titles.
> 
> Perhaps you have written some literature which was published that laid-out the Gap system according to you in past that we've all be remiss in reading.
> 
> ...


Grantmac, names and titles aren't what we are talking about here. Would it give more validity to this gap system ? This gap system stands on its own merits. The question I will ask you again is, if you go to heavier arrows and get your point on down to 40 yards, what harm have you done if 40 yards is the maximum you shoot?


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## beemer1234 (Dec 2, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Bender, congrats on your awards. I haven't used the word inferior to anyone on these threads and wouldn't. I AM trying to help a lot of archers on here to shoot better. The gap system that I advocate has been proven to be very accurate on many occasions , if it is not for you then good luck with your system.


thank you for posting! I don't really know what type of aiming system I have, probably split vision! I have tried gapping off the point having the point way low on the target but for some reason when I try this and my point is a foot or so lower than the bullseye I lose my form and have a tendency to drop my arm etc. I tried your system last night at home if I understand it correctly and I like it!

I am not worrying about the final result as much with this technique and seem to be able split my concentration evenly between aiming and form!

,


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I'll be the first to speak up when I am not familiar with or don't fully understand something so while I can see you aiming system as a viable method I don't know how effective it would be for shorter targets. I can see that it would be beneficial for longer targets. I do want to comment on the other systems mentioned in the thread.

For me, gapping by nature is a system that is comparative in nature. You are measuring to points and setting the desired distance in order to get the trajectory you think you need for a given shot. There are many techniques to do this. Personally, I write down the distance in inches from the tip of my arrow to the spot I want to hit and then practice it until I know it very well. Rod finds the point on distance then divides it to find max gap. I have found my numbers and then applied his formula to compare them and they result in the same numbers. It's just a different way of arriving at the same conclusion. The difference comes when you ask someone what they are focused on when shooting.

If a guy uses that number in inches for a given distance then measures down the target, picks a spot and then aims (point on) at that spot and doesn't look where he wants to hit it's "pick a point" a point of aim type system. They are not measuring the gap at all. I have used this system for 3D a lot and it is quite effective, especially if you struggle with large gaps. If the archers uses the distance to set the gap and then focuses on the gap that results then, for me personally, it is a style of gapping because they are focusing on the gap itself. Now, some archers focus on the gap between the tip of the arrow and the intended mark (aka California gap) and others focus on the gap between the mark and the measured spot down the target. They estimated down the target the number of inches they need to gap for a given distance and focus on those two points.

The type of aiming system being described by itbeso, as I understand it is a type of visualization system vs. a more formula driven measuring and gap setting, but I have not shot this system so I could be wrong. No matter how we label it that doesn't make it more or less accurate.

In terms of accuracy, I will say this about the different styles of gapping. The smaller the gap and flatter the trajectory (speed) the more accurate the system. Most guys today are trying to reduce gap by using a high anchor point and a very fast arrow. For 30 yards and under this is a very accurate way of shooting. The reason this is more accurate is because you can more precisely use the point of the arrow to aim with. On average, more barebow shooters are able to increase scores due to being point on (stringwalking) than bowhunter or traditional class in NFAA field. It's easier to put the point on the target and execute the shot than to set the gap. For one thing it gives the shooter more confidence. You are not second guessing the gap. Now, this doesn't mean that it is absolutely more accurate because the "Bowhunters" have posted some monster national records in field - higher than barebow. For those unfamiliar, bowhunter is a compound bow shooting gap, which is the same as the Trad class rules.

For the masses, it seems easier to use the point to reference. One final note that I have tried to convey to guys for a couple of years now. After shooting the measured gap for a while with the same bow and arrow combo it becomes less scientific. A guy that sticks with a given bow and arrow combo will not measure precisely on every shot. This is what Byron Ferguson is show you with the dots on "Become the Arrow." You begin by aiming at the dot and you know that if you aim at the dot the arrow will impact in the bullseye. After a while your brain just knows where to aim. Most guys measure everything out and shoot it for a period and then they stop measuring. They can put the bow up, see the arrow in their peripheral vision, and simply know if it's right or not. BUT, you can't not understand this completely without doing it for a while. I hope this helps. I am not disputing the accuracy of itbeso's system at all. I can see it being very effective. I simply have no experience with it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

beemer1234 said:


> thank you for posting! I don't really know what type of aiming system I have, probably split vision! I have tried gapping off the point having the point way low on the target but for some reason when I try this and my point is a foot or so lower than the bullseye I lose my form and have a tendency to drop my arm etc. I tried your system last night at home if I understand it correctly and I like it!
> 
> I am not worrying about the final result as much with this technique and seem to be able split my concentration evenly between aiming and form!
> 
> ,



And your findings indicate the point of the discussion. Plenty of people could benefit from this,if the derailers would just give it a chance. Sadly that's not likely to happen.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Actually tbeso I understand your system quite well. Tried it myself early on in my career. Found that it basically sucks out loud for shots past point on.given poor vision in my non-dominant eye. Impossible to accurately "see through the arrow" with poor vision in one eye. A condition that is pobably pretty common.
I recognize that you called no person inferior, yet you did call other methods inferior. And you still try to maintain that you didn't?
So despite your assertions that your method is somehow the absolute bestest thing since sliced bread, you can't back that claim up with any verifiable results. Not your own results, nor do you cite other top shooters known for a fact to use your method.
Bascially we're left with your method as being nothing more than an a diffferent approach to gapping, A method that may or may not work well for some people.
Had you said your piece without the grand blanket statements presented in an arrogant and belittling manner you may have gotten a more positive response. But perhaps its just as well you behaved in what one would assume is your normal manner.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Bender said:


> Actually tbeso I understand your system quite well. Tried it myself early on in my career. Found that it basically sucks out loud for shots past point on.given poor vision in my non-dominant eye. Impossible to accurately "see through the arrow" with poor vision in one eye. A condition that is pobably pretty common.
> I recognize that you called no person inferior, yet you did call other methods inferior. And you still try to maintain that you didn't?
> So despite your assertions that your method is somehow the absolute bestest thing since sliced bread, you can't back that claim up with any verifiable results. Not your own results, nor do you cite other top shooters known for a fact to use your method.
> Bascially we're left with your method as being nothing more than an a diffferent approach to gapping, A method that may or may not work well for some people.
> Had you said your piece without the grand blanket statements presented in an arrogant and belittling manner you may have gotten a more positive response. But perhaps its just as well you behaved in what one would assume is your normal manner.





 And that from one who soooo often behaves like a short bus brat.

For everyones information,this idea is not exactly new or hot off the press. I have heard it mentioned before in one of the videos that I watched a few years ago. I don't watch many of those things so this idea stuck in my memory as having some good possibilities.

Now, It's my suggestion to anyone, that if you have no interest in the discussion,then just don't bother with it. I'm pretty sure that there's someone in another thread asking which arrow he should choose.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Grantmac, names and titles aren't what we are talking about here. Would it give more validity to this gap system ? This gap system stands on its own merits. The question I will ask you again is, if you go to heavier arrows and get your point on down to 40 yards, what harm have you done if 40 yards is the maximum you shoot?


Right now I can shoot one (be it very large) gap ~15-25yds, if I go with a slower arrow then I will have a much narrower point-blank range.
Although I did shoot my best score last year with a heavier arrow, so who knows.

I'd still like to know who is using this system to win, because I do what wins.

-Grant


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Right now I can shoot one (be it very large) gap ~15-25yds, if I go with a slower arrow then I will have a much narrower point-blank range.
> Although I did shoot my best score last year with a heavier arrow, so who knows.
> 
> I'd still like to know who is using this system to win, because I do what wins.
> ...


There you go grant, I think you answered your own question. Everyone today seems to be hung up on speed and thats ok if you are shooting pro freestyle but the stickbowers aren't shooting past 30 yards, why would speed be a factor. It might surprise you to know that most of the NFAA bowhunter records were shot with a compound going only about 210 feet per second. Accuracy is much more important than speed, but you can't seem to convey that to some people. Would you rather shoot a fast 5 or a slow 10?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Speed is a factor as with only one gap from 15-25 yards, distance estimation errors lessen as a source of misses. KISS principal.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender said:


> Actually tbeso I understand your system quite well. Tried it myself early on in my career. Found that it basically sucks out loud for shots past point on.given poor vision in my non-dominant eye. Impossible to accurately "see through the arrow" with poor vision in one eye. A condition that is pobably pretty common.
> I recognize that you called no person inferior, yet you did call other methods inferior. And you still try to maintain that you didn't?
> So despite your assertions that your method is somehow the absolute bestest thing since sliced bread, you can't back that claim up with any verifiable results. Not your own results, nor do you cite other top shooters known for a fact to use your method.
> Bascially we're left with your method as being nothing more than an a diffferent approach to gapping, A method that may or may not work well for some people.
> Had you said your piece without the grand blanket statements presented in an arrogant and belittling manner you may have gotten a more positive response. But perhaps its just as well you behaved in what one would assume is your normal manner.


Bender, you are correct about the vision thing. I have had friends who could not look thru the arrow because of various eye ailments so they would have to gap off to the side and move the arrow over.As far as the verifiable results and people who have had success with the gap here goes. The all time NFAA record in the bowhunter class was shot with this gap and it has stood for 24 years. If I'm not mistaken ,Former national champ Frank McCubbins used this system, former national champ Gary Mccain uses this system, His wife, Many time national champ Sandy Mccain uses this system,national record holder in trad class, Alan Eagleton uses this method mixed with a point of aim system(so he's not perfect.lol), Dave Lewis, many time world bowhunter team champion uses this method. I could go on but you get the point. And no, bender, I'm not denying that I said other methods were inferior, the records speak for themselves. At no time Have I presented myself in an arrogant manner and if you can't handle someone who is passionate about helping others then that is your problem.I have to think that we all want to better our shooting skills and I'm am trying to help other archers do just that.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

WHat BH record would that be, as all the "NFAA Outdoor BH have been set within the last 9 years


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

WHat BH record would that be, as all the "NFAA Outdoor BH have been set within the last 9 years WOw just had an epiphany, we have another "my way is THE best" will not accept any others way as being good, "they are inferior"..... sure sounds like another person who starts "discussions" on here, but hey at least HE has some accomplishments.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Again, we shoot 40yds here. The only time I shot better using heavy arrows was a 3D with shorter distances.
The "best" are currently shooting over 200fps, that is tournament results over the last 5 years of Trad 3D (IBO and NFAA). Problem is my face won't let me anchor any higher and still remain even slightly solid.
I'm thinking about footing another 1.5" on and upping the weight a little.

-Grant


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rsarns said:


> WHat BH record would that be, as all the "NFAA Outdoor BH have been set within the last 9 years



For the purpose of this discussion,WHO CARES? The point is not about who holds what record and which year.
I,and maybe others, would like to hear more about this mans system and how he accomplishes it. When I get that information then I will try it for myself and decide if I like it. I get the idea that most other people are capable of doing the same without the information that you seem so insistent upon pursuing.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Again, we shoot 40yds here. The only time I shot better using heavy arrows was a 3D with shorter distances.
> The "best" are currently shooting over 200fps, that is tournament results over the last 5 years of Trad 3D (IBO and NFAA). Problem is my face won't let me anchor any higher and still remain even slightly solid.
> I'm thinking about footing another 1.5" on and upping the weight a little.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, without seeing you shoot I can't make a valid observation about how to get your point on down, however if you aren't currently doing it, it will help to lean your head forward until your nose touches your fletching or your eyebrows touch the string The position of the head is very important in our way of shooting because the angle of the eye to the arrow must remain constant ,otherwise you will shoot high or low arrows. Doing one of those two things acts as a second anchor and keeps the eye angle the same shot after shot. It will also decrease your point on yardage


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns said:


> WHat BH record would that be, as all the "NFAA Outdoor BH have been set within the last 9 years WOw just had an epiphany, we have another "my way is THE best" will not accept any others way as being good, "they are inferior"..... sure sounds like another person who starts "discussions" on here, but hey at least HE has some accomplishments.


Rsarns, Please go to the NFAA website and look under all time records. No one has come close to the records set back in the 80's. How about if I take back the "inferior" word and just ask you to give this method an honest try?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I am assuming you are talking the "aggregate" scores where they used all 5 days, vice the 3 day. Ben shot some great scores, that is for sure. I have tried the method you advocate, I modified it to the one I currently use. WIth my eyesight my system works best for me, it is not for everybody, and that was what I tried to point out in regards to your original post on this thread. It is a great system, but is not for everyone. I think the way you came into the finger forum calling out everyone ... and the way it still reads to me is bashing... even though you apologized to Boyd, were you at Redding? Were you at Yankton? Were you at Louisville? Please answer my questions.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

The new three day records in the NFAA outdoor Bowhunter style are held by Rich Bromley 512 and 511 and 561 animal of which are Great but not the highest ever Jim Brown owns the field with a two day total of 1034 Ben Rodgers owns the Hunter with a two day total of 1043 Jim is a pick a point and Ben is a gap shooter. What records in the last 9 years do you mean ?



rsarns said:


> WHat BH record would that be, as all the "NFAA Outdoor BH have been set within the last 9 years WOw just had an epiphany, we have another "my way is THE best" will not accept any others way as being good, "they are inferior"..... sure sounds like another person who starts "discussions" on here, but hey at least HE has some accomplishments.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Gary,
Rich Bromleys are the only ones listed if you click the 2011 Outdoor National records on the NFAA and they were all set since 2007. If you go to record scores, then it shows Ben and the others.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> The new three day records in the NFAA outdoor Bowhunter style are held by Rich Bromley 512 and 511 and 561 animal of which are Great but not the highest ever Jim Brown owns the field with a two day total of 1034 Ben Rodgers owns the Hunter with a two day total of 1043 Jim is a pick a point and Ben is a gap shooter. What records in the last 9 years do you mean ?


@413, Thanks for clarifying, I didn't realize there were 3-day records, still if you went back and took the best two days of brown or rogers their scores are still superior to the scores of bromley and that was before the spot counted extra points on the animal round. R-sarns, you accuse me of bashing when in fact I was trying to regenerate interest in the nonsight styles of shooting, and judging by the responses I have managed to do that:darkbeer:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> @413, Thanks for clarifying, I didn't realize there were 3-day records, still if you went back and took the best two days of brown or rogers their scores are still superior to the scores of bromley and that was before the spot counted extra points on the animal round. R-sarns, you accuse me of bashing when in fact I was trying to regenerate interest in the nonsight styles of shooting, and judging by the responses I have managed to do that:darkbeer:



You also woke up the usual crew of thread jackers. I'm watching it unfold as I am accustomed to doing.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Forest. no worries on thread jacking. Some of the guys on here just needed something to validate this system and I hope I have provided enough names and championship titles of the people who use this system, Now we can get back to the topic and hopefully, I can make a few more converts( which in theory will create more champions) lol.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Ehhhhh Forrest you're just mad because I denied that you had the right to demand that people fill out their profiles.
I don't know about the McCains but I do know Alan Eagleton VERY well as a personal friend and shoot with him often. tbeso, what you got going doesn't match how he descibed his gap method to me, but I'll double check. Unfortunately it may take a day or two. This could be amusing.
And as for slow 10 vs. fast 5 you see out here on the West Coast, lots of Trad shooters shoot from the grown up stakes. Up to 80 yards in Field 100+ in 3D. rsarns, myself, Alan, and others are looking for the fast 10. Obviously something you haven't considered. You bet speed matters in competition. Heck it even matters when shooting from the kiddie stakes.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender said:


> Ehhhhh Forrest you're just mad because I denied that you had the right to demand that people fill out their profiles.
> I don't know about the McCains but I do know Alan Eagleton VERY well as a personal friend and shoot with him often. tbeso, what you got going doesn't match how he descibed his gap method to me, but I'll double check. Unfortunately it may take a day or two. This could be amusing.
> And as for slow 10 vs. fast 5 you see out here on the West Coast, lots of Trad shooters shoot from the grown up stakes. Up to 80 yards in Field 100+ in 3D. rsarns, myself, Alan, and others are looking for the fast 10. Obviously something you haven't considered. You bet speed matters in competition. Heck it even matters when shooting from the kiddie stakes.


Well, obviously we disagree, Bender. "I've got it, let's have a spelling contest". Doc Holliday in Tombstone. An attempt to inject a little humor into things.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender said:


> Ehhhhh Forrest you're just mad because I denied that you had the right to demand that people fill out their profiles.
> I don't know about the McCains but I do know Alan Eagleton VERY well as a personal friend and shoot with him often. tbeso, what you got going doesn't match how he descibed his gap method to me, but I'll double check. Unfortunately it may take a day or two. This could be amusing.
> And as for slow 10 vs. fast 5 you see out here on the West Coast, lots of Trad shooters shoot from the grown up stakes. Up to 80 yards in Field 100+ in 3D. rsarns, myself, Alan, and others are looking for the fast 10. Obviously something you haven't considered. You bet speed matters in competition. Heck it even matters when shooting from the kiddie stakes.


Just as a point of interest, is there anyone on this thread who thinks Bender could beat me in a redding type competition. Me using a recurve trad style. I just want to see how well Bender is regarded in the court of competition.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Not sure as you have never stated any scores or if you have attended or who you are. You very well could be the best finger shooter ever... or just someone who likes to stir things up? No matter what, I'd like to shoot with you also, just cause I enjoy competition and not afraid of a good old fashioned butt whoopin.. If I was I'd never compete at the Nationals....


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

ahhh the Oregon Safari draws lots of good shooters, its the first weekend in July, in Eugene... Might be a good place, and it is the Redding distances.


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## Dan378 (Dec 10, 2010)

*Explanation of Gap Shooting*

Itbeso, any books or videos that you know of that illustrate this perspective for those of us who have trouble understanding your detailed paragraph here? As I read your post, there are two challenges at the outset: 1) having to be able to hit a point (even let's say 4 inches in diameter) consistently at 40 yards--using traditional equipment, how many shooters can do that? 2) It seems paradoxical that an aiming system should be devoid of knowing where the arrow tip is pointing, except at one specific distance (point on).
Thanks!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Dan,
Go here for a good explanation...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1775549


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Dan378 said:


> Itbeso, any books or videos that you know of that illustrate this perspective for those of us who have trouble understanding your detailed paragraph here? As I read your post, there are two challenges at the outset: 1) having to be able to hit a point (even let's say 4 inches in diameter) consistently at 40 yards--using traditional equipment, how many shooters can do that? 2) It seems paradoxical that an aiming system should be devoid of knowing where the arrow tip is pointing, except at one specific distance (point on).
> Thanks!


Dan, gary Mccain started another post complete with some pictures that might help you understand it a little better. The thread is called the gap, if you have any questions after viewing those pictures and a couple of my comments there please repost with them


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## barebowguy (Feb 1, 2009)

Bender said:


> Ehhhhh Forrest you're just mad because I denied that you had the right to demand that people fill out their profiles.
> I don't know about the McCains but I do know Alan Eagleton VERY well as a personal friend and shoot with him often. tbeso, what you got going doesn't match how he descibed his gap method to me, but I'll double check. Unfortunately it may take a day or two. This could be amusing.
> And as for slow 10 vs. fast 5 you see out here on the West Coast, lots of Trad shooters shoot from the grown up stakes. Up to 80 yards in Field 100+ in 3D. rsarns, myself, Alan, and others are looking for the fast 10. Obviously something you haven't considered. You bet speed matters in competition. Heck it even matters when shooting from the kiddie stakes.


You are correct Paul I have always shot more of a pick a point, bUt now that I have finally figured out how to see the gap that I have heard so much about I will be giving it a try. ( next year right now I am having way too much fun with stringwalking)
Alan


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

tbeso. I think I could beat you. Just remember, you have to use wood arrows you made yourself and shoot off the shelf, just like I do. Oh and shoot from the long stakes too. Like rsarns what would the point be if I were afraid of competition? But again, back to one question that as of yet remains unanswered, what have you done lately? Man this is fun! 
Oh and Alan you can forget the e-mail I sent. I didn't expect to see you here. But your reply solves it. It would apear that tbeso doesn't know how you were shooting when you set your records.
Really I just don't get why it can't just be just another approach to gap shooting, and MUST be the only bestest way.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Way to much fun I guess you kicked my butt this weekend by two points and I shot my compound first time since nationals.guess I must work harder
Gary


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

barebowguy said:


> You are correct Paul I have always shot more of a pick a point, bUt now that I have finally figured out how to see the gap that I have heard so much about I will be giving it a try. ( next year right now I am having way too much fun with stringwalking)
> Alan


Glad you are finally seeing the light errr.....I mean gap.:angel:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

So ITBESO are you coming to Eugene? I think it would be a lot of fun if we can get a bunch of finger shooters there.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns said:


> So ITBESO are you coming to Eugene? I think it would be a lot of fun if we can get a bunch of finger shooters there.


Thinking about it. I'll be the good looking guy.


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

This thread had a lot of interesting comments. I found my POA to be 40 yards. Still trying to get used to having my arrow tip off the target at 20 yards.

Do you guys close one eye or keep both open?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

mrjeffro said:


> This thread had a lot of interesting comments. I found my POA to be 40 yards. Still trying to get used to having my arrow tip off the target at 20 yards.
> 
> Do you guys close one eye or keep both open?


Always shoot nonsight with both eyes open.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

mrjeffro said:


> Do you guys close one eye or keep both open?


Both open as I completely focus on the target.

Ray :shade:


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Dan, gary Mccain started another post complete with some pictures that might help you understand it a little better. The thread is called the gap, if you have any questions after viewing those pictures and a couple of my comments there please repost with them


Wanted to thank you guys again for posting all this good stuff on gap, and I'd have to agree that all the other stuff is point of aim. In Masters of the Barebow this gap system was addressed but itbeso and Gary have done a much better job at explaining it. I'm heading to the range today to refine my technique in this regard, it'll be fun.

Been wanting to congratulate Bender on all his records, not sure if you can compare your 3 day record to yien's 2 day, though I guess you proved you can. Regardless, good on ya'.

Amongst all the jabs and jesters, there are some pearls of wisdom here that can make us better archers if we can just open our minds, make room for some new(old) concepts.

Bender and Itbeso show up to Redding next year, my two bits is on It...beso.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Itbeso,

Thanks for taking the time to explain gapping at the bow. How you described focusing on the gap itself is how I shoot paper bullseyes. With both the bullseye and tip of the arrow being very prominent, it’s easy for me to relegate them to my peripheral vision and float my primary vision within the gap itself. But when that spot I’m trying to hit is not as prominent (as with 3Ds or live animals), focusing that way doesn’t work for me. The gap ends up floating because the “bullseye” doesn’t stand out in my peripheral vision. So for 3D and live animals, I focus on the spot I want to hit and put the gap and tip of the arrow in my peripheral vision. 

Regardless of how I focus, at distances short of my point-on I couldn’t tell you what the tip of my arrow is pointing at. Beyond my 40-yard point-on, I don’t gap at all. There are enough points of reference through the arrow from 40-80 yards to make aiming very repeatable. But at any distance from the bunny targets to the 80-yard walk up, my bow is set up to shoot the line (i.e. the center of the arrow tip and intended target maintain a vertical line).


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Just as a point of interest, *is there anyone on this thread who thinks Bender could beat me in a redding type competition*. .



I shoot the comparative same competition type as Bender ... and I make no judgements as to whom could beat whom ... but with the consistantly high scores Bender gets ... well I think anyone would have to be at the top of their game .....
He has also helped elsewhere with form issues .... not just a top shot but heck of a nice fella too ........


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

I squint (not close) my left eye, but only because it is dominate - thus making my right eye the dominate one (as a right-handed shooter).


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

benofthehood said:


> I shoot the comparative same competition type as Bender ... and I make no judgements as to whom could beat whom ... but with the consistantly high scores Bender gets ... well I think anyone would have to be at the top of their game .....
> He has also helped elsewhere with form issues .... not just a top shot but heck of a nice fella too ........


Benofthehood, Please be aware of some playful posts being construed as confrontational. Thats part of the problem with some of our posts, the audience can't see the twinkle in our eyes. I'm sure Benders path will cross with mine soon and I look forward to some good competition and fun chats''.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Dewey3 said:


> I squint (not close) my left eye, but only because it is dominate - thus making my right eye the dominate one (as a right-handed shooter).


Dewey, even though I say always shoot with both eyes open, I too have times when I squint my left eye to get a better focus on my gaps. Not closing, just squinting.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Itbeso,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to explain gapping at the bow. How you described focusing on the gap itself is how I shoot paper bullseyes. With both the bullseye and tip of the arrow being very prominent, it’s easy for me to relegate them to my peripheral vision and float my primary vision within the gap itself. But when that spot I’m trying to hit is not as prominent (as with 3Ds or live animals), focusing that way doesn’t work for me. The gap ends up floating because the “bullseye” doesn’t stand out in my peripheral vision. So for 3D and live animals, I focus on the spot I want to hit and put the gap and tip of the arrow in my peripheral vision.
> 
> Regardless of how I focus, at distances short of my point-on I couldn’t tell you what the tip of my arrow is pointing at. Beyond my 40-yard point-on, I don’t gap at all. There are enough points of reference through the arrow from 40-80 yards to make aiming very repeatable. But at any distance from the bunny targets to the 80-yard walk up, my bow is set up to shoot the line (i.e. the center of the arrow tip and intended target maintain a vertical line).


J., Glad the gaps work well for you. As far as the 3-d and live animals, if your system works well there then its all good. Glad to see the exchanges re: types of aiming.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Itbeso ... Mate , didn't take it that way at all ... i saw the twinkle , apols if you thought otherwise ...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

benofthehood said:


> Itbeso ... Mate , didn't take it that way at all ... i saw the twinkle , apols if you thought otherwise ...


Right on.:darkbeer:


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*Shooting Gap*

After reading the gap explanation in this thread I felt compelled to head to the archery range and give it a whirl. I had to come clean that most of what I was shooting was pick a point and I was determined to give this a try focussing on the spot and seeing the arc of the shaft, moreover the gap.

My first outing was on Sunday at the range and it was dismal. I was getting scattered groups, but even worse my form was very inconsistent and flawed. But I stuck to my conviction and looked for that gap between the spot and the arc. I set up at the 35 yard target and shot a 1/4" gap. It was awkward at best for the hour and a half I shot. I was determined to get it, but ended with the sense that I had tried but hadn't succeeded.

After work today I headed out to the backyard and warmed up with the intent to practice gap shooting. I was shooting 20 yards with my recurve, it's an old Hoyt. I looked for an inch gap and started my session. I started to feel more comfortable with focussing on the spot and almost passively seeing the gap between the spot and the arc. I've posted a picture of an end of 5 arrows, please don't judge me by my dispersion, it's one of my better groups. I just wanted to show you that I am indeed shooting and I'm not a poser. But I am certainly not of the same caliber of some of the posters on here that lay claim to titles, wins and records. I'm just a guy that loves to shoot my bow and hopes to shoot true arrows with faith and conviction.

I have not "gotten it" yet, but I see a glimmer and I see how it differs from how I've been shooting. I think it has promise and it's exciting to gather information and concepts. Thanks to all for your contributions. I'll keep working on it and see if it yields any meat in the freezer or success at the local shoots.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Bebe said:


> I'm just a guy that loves to shoot my bow and hopes to shoot true arrows with faith and conviction.


A great attitude and obviously paying off for you, as good as anything I shoot and I have more than my share of days where my groups are average but it does make those good days feel worthwhile. :thumbs_up

Anybody who says they shoot groups like that all the time are living in a fantasy world........we ALL miss sometimes.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

steve morley said:


> A great attitude and obviously paying off for you, as good as anything I shoot and I have more than my share of days where my groups are average at best but it does make those good days feel worthwhile. :thumbs_up
> 
> Anybody who says they shoot groups like that all the time are living in a fantasy world........we ALL miss sometimes.


So true Steve, at least in our World. As you know there are plenty of sight shooters that can and do pack arrows into the X and a flyer is outside the X. But I'll be the first to admit that I shot 5's, 4's, and 3's during this session. My point is that I am getting more of a sense of this "true" gap shooting and I like it. The picture I posted is a mere distraction to the true reward. Knowledge and light! Here is an example of the groups I was shooting during today's session. Truth be known.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If that's your average grouping then you're well on your way, that's very solid shooting.

On a good day I'm able to maintain that kind of group out to 40 yards, maybe 10% shots will be average and 20-25% at 40 to 60 yards, keep it real and accept that you're human and not a shooting machine, it helps you stay a more relaxed shooter, if push too hard and something will likely push back. :thumbs_up


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

BEBE,
So you are just a guy, no titles or records....  Hmmm I love humility. I do understand that you are just a guy who loves to shoot..... Maybe I am mistaken? I think that your statement should be echoed by everybody, good shooting!


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*Dont Judge Me by where my arrows hit please.*

Thanks for the props "rs" and "steve" I know you guys are avid archers and I hope I can shoot with you someday. I do hope my pictures aren't distracting you from my real post above. It's really about me learning this gap system that itbeso and gary are sharing. Just to let you know I'm human here is another group from tonight. "rs" you did misquote me slightly but no worries. I'm just an average shot but I hope that with practice I'll improve my craft.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

itbeso, thank you for all the post on gap shooting ,


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

crossxsticks said:


> itbeso, thank you for all the post on gap shooting ,


It's a pleasure to share with fellow non-sight shooters. The gap that I advocate apparently is hard to envision because over the years I have probably only had 10 or fewer archers who really understood the whole concept. It has been a while since I have shot my fingers and I am having a great time getting back into the mix. Bebe, that is great shooting even for a multiple time world champion. See you on the range soon.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Forest, as I was trying to explain to black, you only concentrate on the distance between the spot and your arrow tip, do not look directly at the spot and do not look to see where the arrow tip is pointing If you will concentrate on that gap distance only, I guarantee you will not know where the arrow tip is. Good luck.


Okay I just reread the thread and realized I need to concentrate on the distance between the spot and the arrow tip. I'll give that a whirl tomorrow. Please excuse my previous pictures after the responses I realize it was in poor taste, but it's too late to edit it. I just wanted to share that a "normal joe" can have some success with an open mind. Btw itbeso it sounds like you may have me confused with someone else. I've got tens of thousands of arrows to still shoot before I could even dream of World Championships! I look forward to seeing you at the range. Just remember to have some patience with me.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bebe said:


> Okay I just reread the thread and realized I need to concentrate on the distance between the spot and the arrow tip. I'll give that a whirl tomorrow. Please excuse my previous pictures after the responses I realize it was in poor taste, but it's too late to edit it. I just wanted to share that a "normal joe" can have some success with an open mind. Btw itbeso it sounds like you may have me confused with someone else. I've got tens of thousands of arrows to still shoot before I could even dream of World Championships! I look forward to seeing you at the range. Just remember to have some patience with me.
> 
> View attachment 1420451


And you have got me mistaken with someone who is mistaken,LOL.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> And you have got me mistaken with someone who is mistaken,LOL.


I may have very well mistaken you for someone else. Regardless your information and posts hit the mark and I will continue to integrate them into my shooting routine in hopes of refining my shot. Which I know you know. That last picture I posted looks to be further than it is. What would you guess the distance of that field face under the target hut, anyone?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bebe said:


> That last picture I posted looks to be further than it is. What would you guess the distance of that field face under the target hut, anyone?


I would guess it to be 45-yard.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

steve morley said:


> Anybody who says they shoot groups like that all the time are living in a fantasy world........we ALL miss sometimes.


I don't say it out loud, but I fantasize about it 

five in a row stacked like that, is a good thing, regardless of whether you did it once or more. I usually like to end with a good group. Helps my self image, and my standards of what I _should_ shoot like, even if I don't usually do it.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I think if I ever shot a group like the first one Bebe posted I'd never pull the arrows. Just leave 'em there as evidence since nobody would believe it...including me the next day. That group would be pretty good even with a decked out compound...great shooting Bebe...:thumb:


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

Easykeeper said:


> I think if I ever shot a group like the first one Bebe posted I'd never pull the arrows. Just leave 'em there as evidence since nobody would believe it...including me the next day. That group would be pretty good even with a decked out compound...great shooting Bebe...:thumb:


Funny how arrows seem to stack into the center in "my backyard" but like Steve has said in the past, how are the groups in the heat of competition. Please don't even think for a second that I lay claim to any delusions that I shoot 25's regularly. On my good days I hang in the 22-24 point range. But again I reiterate that this isn't about my groups, but rather the fact that I am giving this gap system a try. And it looks like a "keeper".

I may dare to dream of heading off to a world championships here in North America or maybe even abroad.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Averaging 23 pts/end gets you into the mid 270s, thats damn fine shooting. Especially if you aren't using a point-on aiming system.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Averaging 23 pts/end gets you into the mid 270s, thats damn fine shooting. Especially if you aren't using a point-on aiming system.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bebe said:


> I may have very well mistaken you for someone else. Regardless your information and posts hit the mark and I will continue to integrate them into my shooting routine in hopes of refining my shot. Which I know you know. That last picture I posted looks to be further than it is. What would you guess the distance of that field face under the target hut, anyone?


Hmmm without my plunger in front of me...  hard to see what target that is, but just off the picture I am guessing it to be close to 40 yards? I looked hard on the ground for the markers... couldn't find them....


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

rsarns said:


> Hmmm without my plunger in front of me...  hard to see what target that is, but just off the picture I am guessing it to be close to 40 yards? I looked hard on the ground for the markers... couldn't find them....


Sanford and rs you are both estimating better than I would if this wasn't my home range and my picture. I wanted to see if itbeso would give it a gander before I spill the beans. "Grant" on my good days I'm more in the high 260's and maybe just ticklin the 270's from time to time. On my mediocre days I shoot 240 through the 250's. I've been shooting our local bi-monthly club indoor shoots in po-dunk town america and have plans to set a new record but haven't done it yet. Truth be told I don't particularly like shooting indoor and I'd rather be shooting the field and hunter stakes outside.

But let me restate again that I am just an average archer, with a below average ability, but an above average enthusiasm for archery and romancing the shot. I see myself showing up to a tournament to mingle, buy some supplies and raffle tickets, and maybe shooting a few perfect arrows and more not so perfect shots. It might take me a "long" while to take on the whole world, and thump my chest and say that I am better than any one of you or the rest of the world. 

In fact that would be highly unlikely. 

My current predicament is that I don't want to admit that I am washed up, or over the hill! I'm going to keep on working on my shooting, crafting it, refining it till I can shoot true, with faith and conviction. 

Time to clock out and go home and shoot my bow!:cocktail:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bebe said:


> Sanford and rs you are both estimating better than I would if this wasn't my home range and my picture. I wanted to see if itbeso would give it a gander before I spill the beans. "Grant" on my good days I'm more in the high 260's and maybe just ticklin the 270's from time to time. On my mediocre days I shoot 240 through the 250's. I've been shooting our local bi-monthly club indoor shoots in po-dunk town america and have plans to set a new record but haven't done it yet. Truth be told I don't particularly like shooting indoor and I'd rather be shooting the field and hunter stakes outside.
> 
> But let me restate again that I am just an average archer, with a below average ability, but an above average enthusiasm for archery and romancing the shot. I see myself showing up to a tournament to mingle, buy some supplies and raffle tickets, and maybe shooting a few perfect arrows and more not so perfect shots. It might take me a "long" while to take on the whole world, and thump my chest and say that I am better than any one of you or the rest of the world.
> 
> ...


If i'm not mistaken, that is a 35 yd fan but it has been a long time since I have shot your range..Even longer since you and I have shot for cokes.Glad to see you enthused again.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> If i'm not mistaken, that is a 35 yd fan but it has been a long time since I have shot your range..Even longer since you and I have shot for cokes.Glad to see you enthused again.


Holy smokes! It is a 35 yard fan! It was taken with a gopro camera and I thought it was neat how the fish eye lens distorted the periphery. If you look closely at the path before the bridge there is a 28 yard fan in place for the hunter round.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

BEBE... I doubt you are washed up, in fact I am sure you are going to show up to Redding and give us all an old fashioned butt whoopin.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

rsarns said:


> BEBE... I doubt you are washed up, in fact I am sure you are going to show up to Redding and give us all an old fashioned butt whoopin.


Sounds like fun, but don't expect any kind of whoopin, less you mean a whoopin and a hollerin. Let me get this new format straight, shooting is fri, sat, sun. That must mean arrive on Thursday, do you guys usually camp on site or across the street or do you "first class" it and stay in town? If I go I'll more than likely bring a tent and a stove. I'd rather spend my dollars on Dynaflight97 and Halo than motel 6 and hometown buffet.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bebe said:


> Sounds like fun, but don't expect any kind of whoopin, less you mean a whoopin and a hollerin. Let me get this new format straight, shooting is fri, sat, sun. That must mean arrive on Thursday, do you guys usually camp on site or across the street or do you "first class" it and stay in town? If I go I'll more than likely bring a tent and a stove. I'd rather spend my dollars on Dynaflight97 and Halo than motel 6 and hometown buffet.


Aaaahhh, the rough life of an orthodontist.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Up till last year we camped, but the cost of hauling the trailer with high gas pirces was more than the motel 6... so last year we indeed stayed at the motel 6, we shall see what next year brings.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Aaaahhh, the rough life of an orthodontist.


At one time I wanted to be an ornithologist, still further back I considered being an orthodontist. Camping onsite has always been fun at Redding, though a trip to town for a buffet and a look at the sundial bridge sounds like fun.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

BEBE,
We try to show up on Wed, and shoot a bit of practice on Thursday.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

rsarns said:


> BEBE,
> We try to show up on Wed, and shoot a bit of practice on Thursday.


I might consider that rs, one of my buddies gets there a 2 or 3 weeks early, he must really get in a bunch of practice. I think I'll go for the Tuesday or Wednesday plan. I think he goes down months in advance in order to get a good parking space for his RV.


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