# Rules are rules, but???



## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

As per the guideline so of this sub-forum, I'm not posting this to start a fight or even a heated debate [perhaps there's none to be had anyway ] - I'm just looking for people's thoughts regarding the application of a rule, that's it that's all.

Scenario: 

I'm shooting my first event in 14 years, mostly for the experience after a 12 year absence from archery, but I do care about the result. The course is one that I've never visited. The targets are in decent shape, some more worn than others, but the course itself is quite good.

I arrive at the 6th target after a decent if not awesome start, getting some momentum with a few 10's, and am rather surprised to see it's a 2D animal target. But, I've seen a few of these on the practice range, so I thought, "ok... I guess they're just trying to save some expenses or this one target was damaged in the past day or so".

2D or not, the shot is a challenging one, about 35 yards, fairly steep uphill. So I focus hard on estimation and glassing it, and I make a great shot, nailing the 12 ring. Happy, I am.

Until one of my group - guys I met the day of the shoot - says "Louis, where did you go? I can't seen your arrow." I said, "Joc, I drilled it - I think it's a 12"

We realize I mistakenly shot the wrong target. 

Now the good part: I didn't ask to re-do the shot, but expected he would say, "Well that was an honest mistake. You obvisouly wouldn't purposely shoot the wrong target and expect to card the result". But that's not what he said. It was "well that's a lost shot". I'm a good sport, so I said, "ok, fine, but it was an honest mistake. I really didn't see the other animal". I left it at that and took the 0 without any further argument. In fairness to my group, I will add that, in hindsight, I should have asked them when I saw the 2D target if it seemed odd to them or whatever. 

Anyway, later on, a senior club member - one of the tournament organizers - and I were chatting about the day and when I mentioned that he said, "I think your group was being way too rigid. I would have let you re-shoot and I'm one of the two organizers."

All to say, I get it that by the strictest interpretation of the rules, it's a lost shot. No argument. But in a friendly tournament [this wasn't the nationals, the triple crown or even a provincial event], I personally would have let someone in the same situation re-do the shot. 

At the end of the day, literally, it wasn't an issue because it didn't affect my placement, and it was a good learning experience. 

What are your thoughts? Perhaps we can just leave it as, what would you have done?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

sorry, I would of taken the zero.
You said it didn't effect your placement but, what if it had? Would you of taken the score knowing you beat someone else out of a place?


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

There's no need to say "sorry" because, as I said, I did take the 0, and, as mentioned, with nothing more said than "ok, fine, but it was an honest mistake"

If I had re-done the shot, I would have flagged it and reported it when I turned in my card. 

Just to clarify, because written words oftentimes convey things wrong, my "ok fine" was "ok...fine, but..." It *definitely wasn't* "Ok! Fine! But..." Trust me, we all laughed about it for the next few targets and the other guys would rib me about being careful to not shoot the 2d's


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

It's a pretty tough call. If it's just a fun shoot with no prizes or recognition, I'd say do what you want.

I shoot with some competitive guys and if the club doesn't put up money, we usually do. No forgiveness when there's money on the line.

Mistakes like that happen more than you might think.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

cbrunson said:


> It's a pretty tough call. If it's just a fun shoot with no prizes or recognition, I'd say do what you want.
> 
> I shoot with some competitive guys and if the club doesn't put up money, we usually do. No forgiveness when there's money on the line.
> 
> Mistakes like that happen more than you might think.


As mentioned, it was a good learning experience. The most important thing for me is that I got it out of the way in a local shoot rather than something more "major".


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You brought it up. Me, I'd let it go.


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## Camp (May 30, 2010)

Crazy how the game is played a 0 is a 0 it is just a game. 
i will not be the first an last with a 0


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

YOU nailed it though so YOU made a great shot,,,, Thats what matters, Right?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know, ever once in a while I will have a new shooter to 3d in my group and it could be a friend or someone I just met. I always try and do a quick ability level decision on the practice range and if they are a true beginner I do everything in my power to help them out as we shoot the tournament that I am trying to win. I usually let them shoot last each target as the day begins and that way those of us that are shooting to win have already shot the target and then we let them tell us their distance and we tell them if it is going to keep them on the foam. Then as the day progresses if they are doing decent we let them start shooting the course by themselves and if a really tough shot pops up we help them along.

So if I had a new guy in my group on a conservation area that accidentally shot a 2d target you bet I would let him shoot another arrow. If they plink a arrow on the ground by accident I let them pick it up and shot it.

Now for the disclaimer: I also am very up front that they aren't going to be allowed to win either, so if we are helping them stay in the foam and they get some breaks then they can fill out the score card and see their score but it isn't going to be turned in. If they are a solid shooter and they are of the mind set that they could actually put up a good score then they are on their own and you bet we have had some people who are back yard pro shooters show up and think they can put up a winning score in my class so we let them shoot their 35 down score by themselves and we go ahead and win the tournament.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

Yep,Padgett is brutal to shoot with,I shoot with him almost every weekend.......man I gotta get better buddies. Lol


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

Nope Padgett is spot on as usual...there is to much gimme gimme in this country as it is..so put in the time learn the game while your new and people will still help you.then go beat them.. And by the way for the OP you shot the wrong target it was handled correctly learn from it and move on...at the fort benning asa a month or so ago our group made an agreement at every stake as to which target we were actually shooting cause the one in front of you may or may not have been the target for that stake


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

ar1220 said:


> Nope Padgett is spot on as usual...there is to much gimme gimme in this country as it is..so put in the time learn the game while your new and people will still help you.then go beat them.. And by the way for the OP you shot the wrong target it was handled correctly learn from it and move on...at the fort benning asa a month or so ago our group made an agreement at every stake as to which target we were actually shooting cause the one in front of you may or may not have been the target for that stake


I will happy take any help I can get from anyone, whether regarding rules [many thanks to everyone for their input - I appreciate it], technique [I can already see why Padgett is so well respected on this forum ], distance estimation, etc. 

Incidentally, I quite like that agreement you mention. I'll be sure to do that at my next tournament. 

Thanks again everyone, cheers


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

here is my question,what in the world was a 2d target doing on the course to begin with. someone new that did not know any better certainly would have been allowed to reshoot the correct target in my group.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Personally I think you should have been allowed to shoot at the proper target. My reasoning is this: there were apparently two animals in the shooting lane. There should only be one target. If there are more the club should be responsible to mark the lane to identify the correct target. Your concern is valid.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Dshort couldn't wait to talk to me last night and we laughed about all the things that have happened over the last 4 or so years that we have shot together. We have been doing 40 or so of these local and national 3d shoots per year and have the greatest time, I have competed in high school and college and have never had better friends or as good a time as I am having right now.

This weekend Donnie for the first time was actually in the top 5 after day one at paris tx in his class and his scott exxus core failed two times and he plinked his arrow 8 ft or so and had to take 2 zeros and lost his chance to be on his first national podium. After his first zero he actually made it back to even and then the second zero sealed the weekend so we know what it means to compete and take a zero and we also know what it means to help a guy have a good first experience on a course.

My favorite zero ever was two years ago I came off a asa course and put my bow in the truck and went over to the booths to talk to some people and get something from lancasters and I saw my buddy Sam Woltius and I knew he was in contention to win known 50 after the first day. He asked me how I shot and i had gotten a top 10 finish in open a and was excited and I asked him the same question and he said well my group walked up and shot a stake and it was the wrong stake and he got a zero, he paused for a moment and grinned and said "Well I still won". I looked him in the eye and said "You Suck". That weekend they had two courses on the same range A and B and you had to zig zag so there were two 1's and two 2's and so on and they had shot the right number stake but the wrong one of the two.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

I've realized that I got more out of the 0, in terms of lessons learned and laughs, than I would have with the 12


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

LMacD said:


> I've realized that I got more out of the 0, in terms of lessons learned and laughs, than I would have with the 12


Happy you've taken it so. 14 years of shooting 3D and I've ran into a bunch of stuff.


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## stork64 (Sep 11, 2010)

This is a much better memory than if it has been a legit 12 and you still just finished in the middle of the pack.


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## stork64 (Sep 11, 2010)

Oh, and I think the shooter that said it was a 0 is overly strict and a jerk- if you weren't turning in your card for a prize. I would have laughed, given you a hard time about it, and let you shoot again.


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## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Personally I think you should have been allowed to shoot at the proper target. My reasoning is this: there were apparently two animals in the shooting lane. There should only be one target. If there are more the club should be responsible to mark the lane to identify the correct target. Your concern is valid.


Initially, I say you made a costly mistake to your score.....not any different than misdialing your sight by ten yds.

But tend to agree with this above......
When a target with multiple kills is presented, the scoring kill must be posted at the stake.......if not, there's choice.
Ive seen courses where they put multiple targets for the "scene" (say multpile turkeys, deer, mt lion with a smaller target in its claw, even the bear on toilet (toilet has rings too)). Choice unless published kill.
I can see how someone can confuse this in their first event after such a break, and also see how regulars would keep looking for the 3d target if they didnt see it.
Although it would be an ugly, embarrassing arguement, your point has merit.
Club shouldn't put the shooters in this situation.

Either way, the ending that happened is probably for the best.....no standings change, lesson learned, no whining over a subjective matter.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just a couple months ago my group was walking down the fire road to the B range and I watched a group stop in front of us about 50 yards and without warning one of them drew and within a second, snap shot a arrow at one of the conservation layered targets just for fun and one of the other 4 guys started to grab for a arrow to shoot. I yelled out STOP AND DON'T SHOOT and one of them yelled back WHY NOT?. I said because that target isn't part of the course and he said that he knew that and was just practicing on the way to range A. I had to explain to this idiot that he was shooting in the direction of target one stake and target 2 stake and he commented that there isn't anyone at those two stakes right now and to him it made it ok for them to take some practice shots in any direction they wanted.


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## cadethearcher (Jul 28, 2014)

if the shoot was just for fun then I think it was reasonable to reshoot it. if there were money prizes then I think it should be a 0


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cadethearcher said:


> if the shoot was just for fun then I think it was reasonable to reshoot it. if there were money prizes then I think it should be a 0


If there were money on the line the host club should have done a better job setting up the course.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

EPLC said:


> If there were money on the line the host club should have done a better job setting up the course.


Agree 100%, if it were a money shoot it should have been set up better. If it was just a fun shoot, I don't see the problem because it was just for fun.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You know, just because of money shoot or higher profile archery event doesn't mean mistakes won't happen by a club or organization. Been there, seen it happen....


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

It was a 3d event and you shot a paper target. If I was shooting a field coarse I wouldn't shoot an arrow at a FITA face. Just sayin.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

It happened to the group I was in once. Walked to next target. Stood at stake and we all shot the target. After shooting, we were told by a group coming up behind us that our next target was to our left not the one we shot. We were also told that by shooting the wrong target, we all received zeros for the target we should have shot. No number on the stake and no number on animal. 

We were just suppose to pay more attention and this was part of our State Championship. We took our zero and accepted the fact that we had just lost the tournament but it made us look better before shooting another target.


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