# Newberry B1 Smokin Speed Pro MAX!



## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

With 3.929 grains per lbs it isn't so impressive anymore . 
Is that allowed in IBO and ASA competitions , and what's about warranty ?????


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

I do believe that is an illegal setup for both IBO and ASA. However, newberry does warrenty their equipment to as low as 3 grains per pound. If you ask me that's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*3 grains per pound no problem*



GVDocHoliday said:


> *I do believe that is an illegal setup for both IBO and ASA. However, newberry does warrenty their equipment to as low as 3 grains per pound. If you ask me that's just a lawsuit waiting to happen. *


Really!!

Richard Batdorf/Newberry


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

I have well over 2500 cycles through the B1 shooting a 275 grain arrow, same wolfden string, no noise and minimal hand shock without a stabelizer.
put on an Xvibe stabelizer and will eliminate all of that


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

Mike,

keep up the good work.

It was nice to meet you last thursday. Maybe we will meet again soon... A lot of work ahead...

TomG


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

*275 newberry*

any bow shot at 75 grain weight lower than ibo will shoot faster than the speed at 350 grain at 70 ,29
so


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*RE:so*

So my newberry is warranted for lifetime to the original owner to shoot 3 grains per pound arrow.

is the Concept?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

So what......Shot a Slayer, Super Tech, Ultra Tech (spiral cams) or a Black Night at the same specs (29" and 70lbs) but with a 350 grain arrow and you will get almost about the speed. If you know how to really get the most speed out of a bow you can get the same or more out of the Black Night and the Super Tech. Shot one of the above mentioned bows with 275 grain arrow and watch the chrono #'s get closer to 375. 

Are you going to keep that bow for the rest of your life???? No. 

This is not ment to bash Newberry. But simply show how dumb this post is. By the way that isn't the only bow that can handle shooting under 5 grains.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*B1 sat HYBRID cams*

Played a little today 
B1 70# 30" draw SAT hybrid 250 3" feathers grain speed pro max
397fps 
70 30" BK2 same arrow 286fps the hatchets on the BK2 seem to loose more energy transfer when the arrows get light but it was fun anyway
Richard


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I get 286 fps with a 452 grain 2314 X7 at 29/70 with my '04 Patriot Dually with a 7 1/2 inch brace height. I don't believe for one second that you only got 286 with a 250 grain arrow out of a BK at 30/70. That's just a lie.


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## Harald (Sep 12, 2003)

Probably not a lie, just a writing error for 386.. I presume...


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*Re: B1 sat HYBRID cams*



fastpassthrough said:


> *Played a little today
> B1 70# 30" draw SAT hybrid 250 3" feathers grain speed pro max
> 397fps
> 70 30" BK2 same arrow 286fps the hatchets on the BK2 seem to loose more energy transfer when the arrows get light but it was fun anyway
> Richard *


sorry guys funny I did not really get bashed for that one it was 386 i do alot of testing on all bows and all arrows light and heavy and let me tell you i am realy amazed at what the light weight stuff will do at 40 yards but then again we have to remember that an arrow kills by hemridge no KE so it seems that penetration is the key and in all events when you increase speed you increase penetration at all yardages Richard


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

> let me tell you i am realy amazed at what the light weight stuff will do at 40 yards but then again we have to remember that an arrow kills by hemridge no KE so it seems that penetration is the key and in all events when you increase speed you increase penetration at all yardages


I am pretty sure that momentum plays a much bigger roll in penetration than does KE.

At any rate, I think you are gonna get some responses to the above statement.


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

> in all events when you increase speed you increase penetration at all yardages Richard



If you increase speed by lowering arrow weight you do not gain penetration. Fastpassthrough, please provide the math to support your statements. (I can see we are going to get into a K.E. vs Penetration argument)


GTR


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Why on earth would I would I want to shoot below 5 grains/lb? It's not IBO legal, and for hunting I prefer at least a 500 grain arrow. What would a tree have more of a chance of surviving...a semi traveling 50mph, or a cavalier traveling 100mph? Something tells me that the tree would topple by that semi and that the cavalier would be wrapped around it. Symple physics, lighter objects are also more subject to wind resistance as well having higher percentages of velocity drop off at farther ranges. Any highschool physics book will tell you that.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

The big thing with light arrows is lost energy downrange. A light arrow loses speed at a much faster rate than a heavy arrow. Momentum is the big factor in penetration. A heavy arrow resists being stopped much more than a light one. 
fastpassthrough:
[/QUOTE]


> so it seems that penetration is the key and in all events when you increase speed you increase penetration at all yardages Richard


Not so. I'll bet my bow against yours, that my 400 gr arrow going 280 will out penetrate your 250 gr arrow at 40 yds. But then, what would I do with your bow?   
fastpassthrough:


> the hatchets on the BK2 seem to loose more energy transfer when the arrows get light but it was fun anyway
> Not my experience at all. The BowTechs _like_ a light arrow. I suspect, if your summation is correct, the arrow was underspined for the BKII.
> Apples to apples, what does that bow of yours shoot at 5 gpp?


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

low end325.2, high end 328.9 FPS
350 grain arrow
70 LB
30" Draw

Speed pro Max are not underspined for the Bowtech 
they are as stiff as a 75-95 Gold Tip and the 6.2 grain arrows can be made a perfect IBO legal grain weight arrow 350 grains including fletch
the 5,5 gr will make a perfect 300 grain arrow for shooting 60 Pounds 

and I guarantee bow that is rated for 305 at fps at 70#
will go just as fast at 60# and will penetrate just as deep as the heavier arrow
worst thing about the heavier arrow is that the drop rate is much faster than that of the lighter arrow,

lighter arrow maintains velosity longer than the heavier arrow resulting in a flatter trajectory and better penetration values.

Proof is in the pudding

I have guys hanging up the gold tips and ACCs for the speed pro max

for sale
11 Easton ACC 30 Long
6 used and 5 un shot still strait white dipped crest and all white 3" feathers on 11%RH helical $75.00

Gold tip 75-95 used with camo. like new condition brand new 4" green with grey index feathers I think they are cut 28"
for $20.00

U pay shipping.


Sorry guys...I am keeping the Cobalts for my self for inside


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*OOPS*

For got to mention

sorry all sold out on the speed pro max and premiums


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

I am assuming archeryaddict and fastpassthru are the same person, but even if they are not, please provide the math to back up your statements. 

There is no way the same bow, shooting the at the same poundage, gains penetration by going to a lighter arrow. (of course both weight arrows have to have identical dimensions)

I am not bashing the bows or using light arrows. I have to admit I would like to shoot 400+ fps one day, but your claims of more penetration just doesn't hold water. 

GTR


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*wrong assumption!*



> I am assuming archeryaddict and fastpassthru are the same person, but even if they are not, please provide the math to back up your statements.



no fasatpassthru is not me

Dude just go out and do the tests for your self and satisfy your own disbelief.

no one said anything about the lighter arrow gaining more penetration over the heavier arrow at the same rate of speed but when the heavier arrow has slowed down faster than the lighter one due to the forces of gravity the lighter one traveling at a faster rate of speed will out penetrate the heavier one.

do the test for your self

that is the only way you will be convinced


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

GTR said:


> *I am assuming archeryaddict and fastpassthru are the same person, but even if they are not, please provide the math to back up your statements.
> 
> There is no way the same bow, shooting the at the same poundage, gains penetration by going to a lighter arrow. (of course both weight arrows have to have identical dimensions)
> 
> ...


no we are not the same person he is a dealer all i was trying to do is fill everyone in on what my findings were here is a real simple way for you to check it out take a 500 grain arrow shoot it @ 40 yards check penetration take a 250 grain arrow of the same diameter and material [carbon with the same type of finish] shoot it @ 40 yards and compare you will really be surprised i was trying to get some chrono readings from the to arrows @ 40 yards but it was to winy to get them through the chrono @ 40 yards but will post as soon as i have them. again this is not a my bow or arrow is better then yours post just wanted to spread my findings and maybe someone else could try this and post Richard Batdorf/Newberry


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*penetration*

heres another interesting penetration test did you know that a 30-06 will not shoot through a kevlar vest but a arrow will food for thought on KE and penetration


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

I will wait for your tests. But I can tell you, your statments are false. They go against math and physics. No matter how much you say it, you will not overcome physics.

Using the same bow and only changing arrow weights, as you go to lighter arrows you will gain speed but lose momentum. 
As I understand it, momentum is the key to penetration.

Again, I will wait for your tests and throw your numbers through the formulas. If somehow you have found a way to defy physics, I will apologize.


GTR


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Hmm.. cant edit.

Yes, I assumed so about the Kevlar vest. As a young kid I saw a video of the same test done with a sand bag.


GTR


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

> lighter arrow maintains velosity longer than the heavier arrow resulting in a flatter trajectory and better penetration values.


Hey Mike, how ya doing?

You don't want me to answer to that one, don' t you?

Sorry, couldn't help myself cause it really hurts but I don't slam on that dead horse one more time.....not today .

Good Luck
Markus


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

oops. Test test


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

GTR I have had guys run off at the mouth the same way you are about the subject and have proved them wrong time after time after time by giving them a hands on demonstration of heavy slow arrows verses Light fast arrows
Results every time in sold speed pro arrows,Case closed!

first off what do you think momentum is to begin with? DUH... speed is momentum! the faster an object travels= more forward momentum. 
get your bow and shoot your old slow heavy arrow into your target then shoot the lighter faster arrow and see which one burys up in the target deeper, go out to 50 yards and shoot into tour target and tell me which one shoots flatter , penetrates deeper and maintains its speed better then come back and tell us your opinion then.

BTW you need to go back to school and learn a little more about Physics IMO


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Here are some numbers to chew on.

250 gr at 397 fps 400 gr at 280 fps
50 yds = 354 50 yds = 261
Retained 89% Retained 93%
100 yds = 316 100 yds = 245
Retained 80% Retained 87%
Momentum: 
0 yds = .440 0 yds = .497
50 yds = .392 50 yds = .463
Retained 89% Retained 93%
100 yds = .350 100 yds = .435
Retained 80% Retained 87%
KE: 
0 yds = 87# 0 yds = 70#
50 yds = 69# 50 yds = 61#
Retained 79% Retained 87%
100 yds = 55# 100 yds = 53#
Retained 75% Retained 76%

Look at the speed differences. 117 fps at 0 yds. Only 71 fps at 100 yds. Look at momentum. .057 difference at 0 yds. .085 difference at 100yds. Look at the KE numbers. 17# disparity at 0 yds. Only 8# at 50 yds. And 2# at 100 yds. 

Archeryaddict:


> first off what do you think momentum is to begin with? DUH... speed is momentum! the faster an object travels= more forward momentum.


If the weight is the same, more momentum will result. Not so with a lighter object. Hit a 4 ft thick concrete wall at 100 mph in a Volkswagon. Hit that same wall in a freight train going 60 mph. Which one do you think will go through the wall? Weight is the more important component of momentum. Simple physics. A body in motion (arrow), tends to stay in motion, until acted upon by an equal and opposite reaction (something like that). 

fastpassthrough:


> so it seems that penetration is the key and in all events when you increase speed you increase penetration at all yardages Richard


That's true when all else is the same. When lightening the arrow to gain speed, not true.

fastpassthrough:


> heres another interesting penetration test did you know that a 30-06 will not shoot through a kevlar vest but a arrow will food for thought on KE and penetration


This only further proves my point. But it's also by design. The vest is meant to stop a projectile that expands, and does not cut. An arrow does not expand, and it cuts. That's the reason it will go through the vest.

Go ahead and shoot the too light arrows. They are nothing more than an attempt to publish unrealistic speed numbers. Put a 5 to 7 gpp arrow on the Newberry and it will just be another bow shooting 270 to 300.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Good post, Phil.
That saves me from some work.
Although I think that this is needless work because the "Newberry family" is on the speed trip and not very willing to accept other opinons or better > real physical facts.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*here is a few numbers you can chew on*

Kinetic Energy: Arrow Mass & Arrow Velocity

How much penetration, or knock-down power, your arrows will have is a matter of kinetic energy. Arrows which impact the target with more kinetic energy will penetrate the target more deeply than arrows with less kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is the energy of motion. Any object which has motion has kinetic energy. Total kinetic energy depends upon two variables: the mass of the object and the speed of the object. This is more an issue of arrow selection than bow selection, but an important issue nonetheless - and another of those "trade-offs" to consider. A bow is generally more efficient, and somewhat quieter, when launching a heavier arrow. But since lightweight carbon arrows are all the rage, we decided to conduct a test to see if the extra speed was really paying off for hunters.


Kinetic Energy - Our Test 

Kinetic energy of an arrow can be found by using the formula KE=(mv²)/450,240 where m is the mass of the arrow in grains and v is the velocity of the arrow in fps. So a bow that's capable of launching a 350 grain arrow at 290 fps, sends the arrow with (350x290x290)/450,240 or 65.38 foot-pounds of Kinetic Energy. Using our Competition Electronics chronograph, our digital grain scale, and a Bowtech Patriot set for 28" draw length and 60# draw weight (representing an average shooter's settings), we decided to put the issue of arrow speed vs. kinetic energy to the test.

We prepared 9 arrows, ranging from 250 grains up to 650 grains in precisely 50 grain increments. Each arrow was fired from our test bow, through the chronograph and the results were recorded (table below). Five trials were conducted for each arrow - to achieve a reliable speed measurement (average). Each arrow was fired from the same distance, from the same shooter, and without any modifications to the bow's settings during the test. The test was conducted at our indoor range, where lighting and environmental conditions could be held constant throughout our test.

Our Test Results - Chronograph (speed) Test

FPS
Trail 1 Trial 2 Trial 3 Trial 4 Trial 5 Average 
250G Arrow 294 294 295 294 294 294.2 FPS 
300G Arrow 274 272 273 273 273 273.0 FPS 
350G Arrow 256 256 257 255 256 256.0 FPS 
400G Arrow 242 242 242 243 242 242.2 FPS 
450G Arrow 231 231 231 230 231 230.8 FPS 
500G Arrow 220 219 220 220 219 219.6 FPS 
550G Arrow 211 210 209 210 209 209.8 FPS 
600G Arrow 202 201 201 202 202 201.6 FPS 
650G Arrow 196 195 195 195 194 195.0 FPS 

Clearly we can see that lighter arrows indeed fly considerably faster. So where's the trade-off? Faster is better right? In most cases yes. But if you're concerned about Kinetic Energy or knock-down power, a heavier arrow may provide a little more penetration. Is the loss in speed worth the added kinetic energy? You decide. Look at the same chart - converted into kinetic energy (ft-pounds) instead of feet-per-second.


Kinetic Energy Developed by Arrow Weight

FT-POUNDS
Trail 1 Trial 2 Trial 3 Trial 4 Trial 5 Average 
250G Arrow 47.99 47.99 48.32 47.99 47.99 48.06 ft-lbs 
300G Arrow 50.02 49.30 49.66 49.66 49.66 49.66 ft-lbs 
350G Arrow 50.95 50.95 51.34 50.55 50.95 50.95 ft-lbs 
400G Arrow 52.03 52.03 52.03 52.46 52.03 52.12 ft.lbs 
450G Arrow 53.33 53.33 53.33 52.87 53.33 53.24 ft-lbs 
500G Arrow 53.75 53.26 53.75 53.75 53.26 53.55 ft-lbs 
550G Arrow 54.39 53.87 53.36 53.87 53.36 53.77 ft-lbs 
600G Arrow 54.38 53.84 53.84 54.38 54.38 54.16 ft-lbs 
650G Arrow 55.46 54.90 54.90 54.90 54.33 54.90 ft-lbs 


As you can see, the gains in KE are relatively minor. To gain a few more ft-pounds of KE, you'll have to sacrifice a considerable amount of arrow velocity. Of course, every bow will not perform exactly as our test bow did. However, you can expect similar gains and losses in performance with most modern compound bow models. Consider the trade-offs carefully.


Performance Summary: Doubling Your Arrow's Mass 
300g Arrow (5 g/p/p) 273.0 fps 49.66 ft-lbs of KE 
600g Arrow (10 g/p/p) 201.6 fps 54.16 ft-lbs of KE 
LOSS of Velocity: 26.2% GAINS in KE: 8.3% 

And while some archers stubbornly stick by their hefty "big-game" log style arrows, an increasing number of archers are discovering that lightweight arrows can be just as effective for hunting large game - perhaps even more effective. And it should be noted that a properly placed arrow - impacting with 49.66 ft-lbs of KE would easily generate a clean pass-thru on a Whitetail Deer or Elk. So with respect to kinetic energy and big-game hunting, the practical difference between an arrow generating 49.66 ft-lbs and another generating 54.16 ft-lbs - would really be how far the arrow sticks in the dirt after passing through the animal. 

From a standpoint of accuracy, you may find that lightweight arrows will yield some surprising benefits too. From the moment your arrow is released from the bow, it begins to lose trajectory. As it succumbs to the effects of gravity and air resistance, it's flight path (trajectory) changes and the arrow eventually begins to drop back to earth. Arrows which fly more quickly hold their trajectory better than slower arrows. So archers who shoot lighter-faster arrows will have less need to adjust for distance - since the faster arrows will hold a "flatter" trajectory within a given distance. In effect, the faster arrow allows you to make more mistakes in yardage estimation. If you mis-estimate a deer to be 25 yards away, and it is actually 30 yards away, a fast arrow still hits it's mark (though it might land just a little bit low), while the slower arrow misses more dramatically. Look at the trajectory chart on the right from our Bowtech Patriot experiment. The heavier arrows nosedive much more quickly than the lighter faster arrows. 

With the wide variety of lightweight arrow materials now readily available, you don't have to let your compound bow lazily cough-out arrows anymore. We recommend you take advantage of the high-speed output of your new compound bow - and "lighten-up" when selecting your arrows. You'll be more accurate - and yet you'll still having more than enough KE to harvest big game animals. So put those logs away.

article can be found athttp://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm#ke


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Shooting 2 arrows of unequal diameters will never be a true showing of penetration. There will always be less friction with the smaller diameter shafts, so they will appear to have better penetration in a bag target. The only true way to test it is to shoot 2 equal diameter shafts with varying weights, into a consistant, controlled test substance, a substance where the target medium is the same throughout the target. Bag targets have too many varying levels of padding to be used for this type of testing.

Physics does not stand on the lighter, better penetrating side of the argument.

What would you rather get hit by, a bicycle going 40 mph, or a F150 going 25 mph?


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## ronw (Nov 20, 2003)

i don't know about all the numbers, and don't care too much, i'm not a mathametician. i do understand KE and momentum,though, and i do know this.......... i have two hunting set ups. one shoots a light arrow very fast. i use it mainly for broadhead leagues, but i have hunted with it. the other shoots a considerably heavier arrow considerably slower, but still good speed. i have seen several deer run off after the shot, with my arrow from the light/fast rig, but not one yet, from the slower/heavier rig. math is math, and math don't lie, but physical evidence doesn't care too much about math's rules.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

*Momentun ?*

Archery addict,

In your previous calculations you forget to include the momentum, it is p=m*v,

I did it with your numbers (sorry I used SI units).

test 
Weight 1	2	3	4	5	average	Momentun (kg.m/s)	KE (J)
250	294	294	295	294	294	294.2	1452.66 130263.57
300	274	272	273	273	273	273	1617.58 134599.73
350	256	256	257	255	256	256	1769.66 138084.71
400	242	242	242	243	242	242.2	1913.45 141255.67
450	231	231	231	230	231	230.8	2051.31 144305.12
500	220	219	220	220	219	219.6	2168.63 145155.10
550	211	210	209	210	209	209.8	2279.03 145737.49
600	202	201	201	202	202	201.6	2389.05 146801.31
650	196	195	195	195	194	195	2503.40 148792.21

If you said that penetration is directly related to momentum, and said that a lighter arrow would have better penetration, you caught yourself wrong....

I am not trying to bash anyone here, just trying to understand the problem myself.

The only advantage I see shooting a lighter arrow is concerning evaluating distances.

TomG


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

Looks like your beating the horse here Phil 

Guys Guys Guys...

If you want to shoot the light arrows...feel free. I personally think it's cool that they've come up with the technology that allows to these bows to handle that kind of stress.

But don't think for a second that you can quantify the fact that they'll out penetrate a heavier arrow. It just isn't true.

We've pretty much established that momentum is the greater determination in penetration? OK?

Look at the sandbag test and the kevlar vest test that someone mentioned. The bullet had exponentially more KE that the arrow OK....but the arrow _penetrated farther_ because of it's _greater mass_ When you lighten the arrow and increase the speed your limiting the capacity to initiate the _hemmoraging_ and trying to focus on the shock and trauma as a bullet would...your not going to make it like that untill bows can shoot a bit fastre than they are now.

I'm not saying you can't kill deer here guys...hell the native americans used sticks and flint 

The only upside to a faster lighter arrow is...ranging buffer. As stated if you guess at 28 and it's 31 you can still get the job done.

Which, for me who limits my shots to 30 yards anyway, doesn't make a huge difference.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

400 grain arrow traveling 275 FPS, which is pretty much the norm off the string transfers 67 Foot pounds of ke
a 450 grain arrow traveling 260 FPS=67F#KE
500 grain arrow,250 fps=69F#KE

275 grain arrow traveling335.2 on the low end off the string =68F#KE FPS high end of337.5=69F#KEshot from the Newberry b1 at 70# lb 29" draw
the heavier arrow slows down faster than the light arrow 
thus reducing the KE

at 40 yards the lighter arrow is still traveling 292 fps ans carrying 52#KE

the heavier arrow is traveling 251 FPS with 56#KE

I will give up 4# for a flatter shot

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/momentum/u4l1a.html


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

> What would you rather get hit by, a bicycle going 40 mph, or a F150 going 25 mph?


Ya'll have got to stop using this analogy. We are not running up and smacking deer with a baseball bat or hitting them with a truck. We are shooting sharp things through them.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

Archeryaddict,

you give values of KE but yoiu talk about momentum... there is a big difference...

KE=m*v*v
momentum p=m*v

with your data:

300 gr arrow:
Speed=273 fps
KE=134.6 kJ
Momentum=1770 kg.m/s

600 gr arrow:
Speed=201.6
KE=148.8 kJ
Momentum=2389 kg.m/s

Very small diffrence of KE for a heavier arrow, especially for the difference of speed, but 92% more momentum...

So my question about PENETRATION, is it about KE or momentum ?

TomG


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

Exactly the point Tom,it's about momentum in regards to penetration. Cut and paste here...


> To demonstrate it, try shooting a 5 gallon bucket full of sand with a 230 grain full metal jacket .45 ACP round a 835 feet per second and also with a 550 grain broadhead-tipped arrow at 200 feet per second. The .45 bullet will not penetrate completely through the bucket while the arrow will. If the kinetic energy buffs were right, the .45 bullet with approximately 335 ft. Lbs. Of kinetic energy and 635 feet per second advantage in speed should penetrate far better than the arrow's measly 49 foot pounds of kinetic energy.
> 
> Why doesn't it? The answer is both simple and complex. Kinetic energy figures are great on paper, but in the real words, several other factors come into play. The friction of the medium, in the above example - sand, plays a tremendous role in how well a projectile will penetrate through that medium. Likewise, the momentum of the projectile and its shape as it passes through the medium are primary factors in determining how well the projectile will penetrate.
> 
> ...



Here's the link to the whole article...very informative.Link here


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*KE Or Momentum*

thanks for the math lesson but....
Bottom line it is about accuracy

at 40 yards regardless of the amount of KE or momentum is lost compaired to a heavier slower arrow is still enough to completley pass thru an elk and moose sized animal!

the thing you people seem to be missing is that my rig shoots flatter that is what I like and I am sticking with it.


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

> that is what I like and I am sticking with it.


Well...that's all you had to say


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

> GTR I have had guys run off at the mouth the same way you are about the subject and have proved them wrong time after time after time by giving them a hands on demonstration of heavy slow arrows verses Light fast arrows


 Ok, first of all, I am not running off at the mouth. I ask you to prove a claim you make. If you don’t like questions, don’t post BS across a public forum. 

Now, you posted numbers that support exactly what I have been saying. Also, as pointed out earlier, I believe you are confusing K.E. with momentum. 





> thanks for the math lesson but....
> Bottom line it is about accuracy
> 
> at 40 yards regardless of the amount of KE or momentum is lost compared to a heavier slower arrow is still enough to completely pass thru an elk and moose sized animal!



Now, you change your argument. 




> BTW you need to go back to school and learn a little more about Physics IMO


No, actually I believe you need to take your own advice.




> Again, I will wait for your tests and throw your numbers through the formulas. If somehow you have found a way to defy physics, I will apologize.



Guess I wont have to apologize.


GTR


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

GTR

do me a favor and shoot the arrows before you form your opinion you may find out I am telling you the truth.

lots of things come into play besides momentum like stifness of the spine everyone knows that a weak spine will loose energy the more it flexes this will also disrupt momentum and uponimpact if a shaft flexes it will not penetrate as deep as a stiffer spine due to even more of a loss of energy or disrupted momentum 
the shafts are 9/32 which is smaller diamiter than their counter part which will also increase penetration
if you want to come down to my shop bring your arrows and I will proove it to you. Hows that?


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

So, assuming identical stiffness and proper spine for the bow, you are saying a light fast arrow will out penetrate a slower heavier arrow?


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

Rangeball 
that is not what I am saying at all
not to mention any brand names I will say that heavier arrows that are rated for the same poundage but have a weaker spine and are of a slightly larger diamiter will not penetrate as deep as the Speed pros.
arrows that are heavier but have a stiffer spine to weight ratio will out penetrate the SP but only by 1.5"
see, what you cannot equate in momentum calculation is how much the momentum has been disrupted by the arrow flexing off the string, down range and also upon impact of the target all this has a negative effect of both Momentum and KE.

Just shoot them in a new target aginst the arrows you currently use and judge for your self; that is all you have to do to determine whether what I am saying is true or false
this bickering back and forth solves or prooves nothing.


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Archeryaddict,
Once again you are changing your argument. 

You do a lot of tests. Try filling one of your light fast arrows up with sand. Shoot it out of the same bow at the same draw weight and length. See if it out penetrates the lighter one. If you tell me it does not, I will concede.




Since I can tell you really like people asking you questions.




> lighter arrow maintains velosity longer than the heavier arrow QUOTE]
> 
> Please provide the math(or test data) that a light arrow sheds its speed at a slower rate than a heavy arrow. So the argument can not change, the arrows are the same dimensions and spine and shot here on earth from the same starting point and impact at the same ending point.
> 
> ...


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

I must confess, I'm following that thread with an increasing size of my smile.

It really shows the difference of understanding physics or just interpretating physics to advance a certain concept or product.

Oh, to avoid misunderstandings:
I'm one of that stubborn guys mentioned by Archeryaddict who is sticking with his heavy arrows for big game hunting.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

I am not at my computer so I cannot post pics I will upload pics to my computer tonight but I can give you a few numbers

all arrows were shot from the Newberry B1 29" [email protected]# at 17YD from new un used target, 

target material is hard plastic broadhead target 2 inches thick.

Gold Tip 55-75, 380 Grain, velosity off string 284.9 FPS, penetrated 8 5/16"

Premier Select 200 410 grain, velosity off string 275.3 FPS, penetrated 6 13/16"

Easton 2219 590 Grain, velosity 232.5 FPS, penetrated 7 7/8"

carbon Wolverine 60-70 575 grain, velosity252.2, penetrated 7 13/16"

Speed Pro premium 275 grain, velosity 326.7, penetrated 9 1/16"

Speed Pro Max 260 grain, 335.6 FPS, penetrated 9 3/8"

now all of you physics people please explain to me why the lighter arrow penetrated the target deeper than the heavier arrows?

I will tell you why.

you cannot equate the arrow stiffness and shaft diamiter into your calculations.

it is easy to make your argument on paper but the physical test does not Jive out with your calculations

you are not taking in conciderations of the other variables 
for example a larger dia shaft will produce more friction causing less penetration.
a weaker spined shaft will oscelate more than a stiffer shaft thus reducing both KE and momentum which will in turn reduce the amount the arrow will penetrate the target.

put the two together and you will loose even more penetration.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

don't light and fast and slow and heavy kinda even each other out? a slow heavy arrow will hit hard down range and not be affected as much by wind....but at the same time a fast light arrow will be hustling faster making up for lack of weight and still have high ke. Folks say that wind will mess with a lighter arrow. I say yes and no...wind will also mess with a heavier arrow cuz it's in the air longer than a lighter/faster arrow. In the end you can't go wrong either way. Is my logic correct?


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Archeryaddict,
You have changed your argument. 

(****EDIT****)

I was going to post quotes that I believe support you have changed your arguments. I realize there is no need. Have a good day.

GTR


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*Changed my arguement*

I dont think so!

I have been saying all along that the SP arrows will out penetrate heavier arrows and can physically proove it
so tell me GTR how has what I know changed?

if you have anything to add please educate me 

BTW Pics on the way


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

the arrows that are sticking through the target farther are the 2 speed pros


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

the tape mark indicates the depth that each arrow penetrated the target agin the 2 that went the deepedt were the speed pros.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

here are the same arrows shot from a Max-Xtreme set at 60#

agin the arrows that are in the target the deepest are the speed pros


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

At best, that's a poor test of penetration. Shoot into the same foam 30" thick. Once you punch through, it's just a matter of very slight friction slowing the arrows. I have yet to see a two inch thick deer. Try the same test with an XT Axis arrow at 400 gr.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Archeryaddict:


> Easton 2219 590 Grain, velosity 232.5 FPS, penetrated 7 7/8"





> carbon Wolverine 60-70 575 grain, velosity252.2, penetrated 7 13/16"


15 gr arrow weight = 20 fps and 1/16" difference.

Archeryaddict:


> Speed Pro premium 275 grain, velosity 326.7, penetrated 9 1/16"





> Speed Pro Max 260 grain, 335.6 FPS, penetrated 9 3/8"


15 gr arrow weight = 9 fps and 5/16" difference. 

Archeryaddict:


> all arrows were shot from the Newberry B1 29" [email protected]# at 17YD from new un used target,


You should do the test at 40 or 50 yds, also. Those results would be more telling, shot into a 30" thick target.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

Pdqoh

GET REAL!
everyone knows that an arrow will pass thru flesh much easier than hard extruded plastic foam target :rolleye:

if the target was 30" thick would have made all the arrows penetrate less than what they did but the results would still be the same.


I can see some people will not accept the facts no matter what

I tell you what you use what you want to
and I will keep on using what I want.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Archeryaddict:


> if the target was 30" thick would have made all the arrows penetrate less than what they did but the results would still be the same.


You can't say this as fact, having not done it. 

Archeryaddict:


> I tell you what you use what you want to and I will keep on using what I want.


Fair enough. I only raise my points for discussion. Why not send me two of these arrows, and I'll repeat your tests at 40 and 50 yds into a 30" thick target. I'll grant you that at 17 yds (not unrealistic whitetail distance) the light arrows will work, assuming no bone is hit. However, some people hunt elk, antelope, caribou, etc. Their shots can exceed 17 yds (some whitetails as well). This is where I see the negatives of very light arrows. Now factor in a crosswinnd. 

Archeryaddict:


> GET REAL!
> everyone knows that an arrow will pass thru flesh much easier than hard extruded plastic foam target :rolleye:


I know. You should see a 400 gr arrow do that.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

PDQ

I dont know how many times I have to say this but people are getting complete passthrus on elk and Moose with these arrows at 50 yard ranges

the test has been done at the factory from 40 and 50 yards the results were the same

however a couple of brands did out penetrate due to having a stiffer spine and are the same diamiter as the speed pros

hey dude I had to pay foir my shafts!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Archeryaddict:


> however a couple of brands did out penetrate due to having a stiffer spine and are the same diamiter as the speed pros


And I'll bet they weighed more.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

> And I'll bet they weighed more.


LMAO how did you ever guess?


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

One thing I'll throw in is that some bows that are very efficient have such a dramatic increase in speed as the arrow gets very light that that particular bow is able to shoot light arrows with more KE than heavier arrows within a narrow weight range; usually 275-330 gr (from the tests I've done).

Norb Mullaney has obserned this phenomena as well and has written about it. I think it was Len that first pointed it out, and I tried it and found it to be true as well.

BTW, I like the Speed Pro arrows and have melted three chronographs with my 04 Black Knight.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

here are some interesting numbers I ran last night on my computer after chronographing the arrows speeds.

speed pro arrow
2.5” plastic vane fletch RH 11DEG helix
speed pro broad heads, 55 grain
9/32 DIA shaft
29” long
8.4% FOC
275-grain weight arrow 
distance Speed Energy Momentum Drop 
YDS FPS	(ft-lbs) (lb-sec) (in inches)
0 335.5	69 .4090737 0	
10 329	66 .4016226 -2	
20 324	64 .394472 -7
30 318	62 .3876134 -15
40 312	59 .3803197 -28
50 307 57 .3740407 -43
60 301	55 .3673708 -64
70 296	53 .3610141 -89
80 291	51 .3543730 -122
90 286	50 .3486467 -156
100 281	48 .3426815 -199

Old hunting arrow
4” feather fletch RH helix
100 Grain head
5/16”DIA
29” long 
12%FOC
440 GR

Distance Speed Energy Momentum Drop 
YDS FPS	(ft-lbs) (lb-sec) (in inches)
0 273.5	73 .5335638 0
10 266	69	.5189290 -3
20	259	65	.5051840 -10
30 252 62 .4911478 -24
40	245	59	.4780602 -43
50	239	56	.4658764 -69
60	233	53	.4536540 -104
70	226	50	.4415842 -151
80	221	48 .4313580 -202
90	216	46	.4213738 -266
100	211	44	.4124339 -340
at 20 yards my old arrow is only producing 1 foot pound more KE than the lighter arrow
at 40 yards both arrows have the same amount of KE
at 50 yards the lighter arrow is holding more KE


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## GTR (Dec 31, 2003)

Nice test. Can you please fletch both shafts with the same vanes next time? Might change the numbers a bit, then again it might not.


GTR


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

GTR

Shut up and go shoot your bow!


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## deer man (Dec 31, 2003)

*whats up*

SEEMS LIKE THIS IS GOING ON FOREVER. AS I HAVE BEEN GETTING INTO WHAT I CAN DO TO IMPROVE MY SET UP THE MOST.mY WISE AND 62 YEAR OLD BROTHER,REMINDED ME YESTERDAY AS WE WATCH MY MOM DYING,THAT DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHEN WE HUNT ,IF THE ARROW GOES THROUGH THE DEER 10FT OR 30 FT,

I SAID HE SHOULD LOOK FOR A NEW BOW,AND HIS REPLY WAS,I HAVE SHOT THROUGH THE LAST 15 DEER AT 53LBS WITH A QUIET WHEELED BOW,SO WHY BUY A NEW BOW,

WE WERE TOLD YEARS AGO BY MANY,THAT ARE KE SET UP WAS NOT ENOUGH ENERGY TOO,AND OUR REPLY IS ILL SHOW YOU THE LAST 40 MICHIGAN WHITETAILS THAT DIDNT GO FAR,BEING SHOT WITH A BIG MECHANICLE.

A D 
IF YOUR SET UP IN THE FIELD WORKS FOR YOU,THEN THATS ALL THAT MATTERS,
AS A KID I WOULD GO WITH THE OLDER BROTHER,AND A FEW WOULD ALWAYS TRY TO TELL HIM WHAT HE NEEDED TO SHOOT,AND HE WAS A MODEST MAN AND LET THEM B,S.
BUT I WASNT ,AND WOULD ASK HOW MANY LEGAL BUCKS THEY HAD SHOT WITH THERE SET UPS,THEN I WOULD TELL THEM HOW MANY HE HAD SHOT,AND THEY WOULD SAY NO MORE.
SO I SAY THIS IF IT WORKS FOR YOU AND YOUR BLOWING THROUGH THE ANNIMALS YOU SHOOT,THEN THATS ALL THAT MATTERS,JIM


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

Someone PM'd me about the speeds I was getting, but I deleted it before I could reply so whoever it was.............................

I got 412 fps from my 04 BK, 71/29.25, and don't know the exact weight of the arrow....they are 29", 3-3" feathers, 65gr screw in point. Wait till I try it with the 30" mods!!


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

*412 fps!?*

412fps @ 29.25 and 71lbs? 

 

Can't wait to hear what the 30" mods do!

You guys better be careful, I can picture one of those little arrows going off in a puff of smoke. 

The surgeon general says this stuff could be hazardous to your heath. 

Sounds like fun though.

Please report the 30" mod speed for that BowTech BK when you try it, and the arrow weight if you would......also include whether or not you sent the arrow back through time.


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## Nino (Jul 9, 2002)

All right step right up. I need a volunteer to stand with there back to me about 6 feet away and I will chuck this ping pong ball at the back of there dome. I will throw it at the same speed I chuck the next item, which will be a golf ball. Who's first? Anybody? Hey Archeraddict come here.


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## deer man (Dec 31, 2003)

*arrows,*

i am a 400 grain hunter.but brother got the speed pros,a week ago,and we played with them,ran them through the crono,and shot them in dense foam to 40 yds.in all test we did,the 318 grain speed pro with same 100 grn field points penetrated deeper into the target,from 10yds to 40 yds.
im a old fashion guy,and not supporting nothin,and will shoot what i want.but im just passing these numbers off,to prove nothing but tell you what we shot,we shot gold tip 55-75,365 grns,and also 400 grain gold tips too.i will be shooting a 400 grain come hunting season,but i also was impressed with the results we got at 56lbs,and also 64lbs with the arrows,jim

speeds were 245,400 grains,250 367grains,272 ,318 grns.this was just 2 hunters trying out a new toy,jim


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

*500fps*

You out there?

Was wondering how the testing was going with those little Speed Pro arrows and your BK.
If you were getting 412fps at 29.25 and 70# then the #1 mods (30")have to be mid 420's?!

You chicken out or what? What's a few carbon splinters?

By the way, what does the BOW feel like at that speed? I know we are talking arrows here, but what type of shot reaction are you getting out of the BK at 412fps?

When I had my 2001 Pro38 Dual Cam it was incredibly smooth shooting and pretty darn quiet too for shooting 336fps at IBO specs......350gr/30"/70# draw weight. 6 5/8" brace height to boot.
 
I could shoot 475gr CE T.HUnter select 6075's out of it at 290fps.


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

*HERE I IS!*

Well, I took the string silencers off at the same time I switched out the modules, so there are 2 factors in the increase in speed, but I got 422 fps. The reason the increase wasn't more is that the 29" module AMO's at 29.25", and the 30" mods AMO'd at exactly dead nuts on 30", so you are only increasing draw length by 3/4"

It shoots whisper quiet and just sits there in your hand after the shot a 422 fps.  

JUST KIDDING!! It's loud an obnoxious.

I'm not going to shoot that light of an arrow through it anymore.I just wanted to see what it would do, but at exact IBO specs it is shooting 354 fps. I'll take that at 5gr/lb all day long. Others are having to drop to 3 gr/lb to get that same speed.

I haven't shot the Speed Pro arrows enough to have a completly useful opinion, but in the little I have shot them I have had no problems. I hope the durability issues that I have heard from others are rare, isolated events, because as of right now I like them. BTW, I built mine with unibushings. Pass that on to Pat's girlfriend for me.


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## 3dcuda (Mar 7, 2003)

*do not care.*

to me this thread has no bearing on me at all.unless you own a bow that is waranteed under 5gr/lb the arrows are worthless for extra speed.so who cares if they shoot 1000 fps still voids most warranties.now if you compared the same weight arrows and the speed pro max shot considerably higher somehow then i may be interested but until then whoopy.also to get these speeds they are worthless for asa and ibo competition.it is one thing for the arrow manufacturer to say it is safe to shoot the arrows at under 5 gr/lb but more importantly it is the bow manufacturer that counts.just my 2 cents.


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

I think that is point of this thread. HCA and Newberry warranty their bows at under 5 gr/lb. and adverise speeds of 350 fps at about 3.5gr/lb.

My point is that you can get 350 fps with a bow (BOWTECH), and still be within the guidlines of the warranty.

The HCA and Newberry bows are not exceptionally fast, they are just shooting really light arrow to get high speeds. If you shoot those really light arrows out of a bow that is also fast, you can see the kind of speed you can get. 

No, Bowtech doesn't warranty less than 5 gr/lb, but the fact that HCA and Newberry do warranty it doesn't mean they are less likey to experience failures, it means that HCA and Newberry are smart enough to realize that most bows manufactured today are capable of shooting lighter arrows with minimal problems. I have an 80lb 2000 BK2 with thousands of shots through it at 3.5-4 gr/lb and haven't had the slightest problem. I know this particular forum is geard toward target shooters, but 90% of everyone who shoots a bow don't give a rat's *** about ASA or IBO. They shoot for fun. Shooting a fast arrow is very fun, the same way dumping the clutch on a V-10 is. Not necessary to get you from point a to point b, but very, very fun.

But for me the bigggest advantage of the speed pro arrows is to be able to get a 5 gr/lb arrow that is appropriately spined for a 70 lb bow and 29-30" arrow lenght.


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## 3dcuda (Mar 7, 2003)

*fun*

not picking a fight with anyone never have on this board,but 500fps do you think it also fun if the bow you shoot 1000 times under 5gr/lb blows up on shot 1001 and causes serious injury?you or alot of people may not give a rats *** about ibo or asa but they do give a rats *** about there warranty and safety.if newberry and hca are the only ones who warranty their bows for under 5gr/lb then there should only be a minimal number of people who really care about what those arrows do at under 5gr.i do agree that it is nice that you can get the arrow weight to 5gr and be spined right for higher poundage bows.if you could show some results that way that were alot different from other arrows i would be impressed. but people are not going to run out and by these arrows to shoot them at 3gr/lb out of there $600 and up hoyts mathews and so on without being covered under warranty. if the arrows are safe to shoot then prove it to more than just newberry and hca . get the big names in archery to agree (hoyt,mathews martin,bowtech)


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## deer man (Dec 31, 2003)

*arrows*

we are trying a few speed pro to play with,with a 100 grain head they are at 318 grains,and at 60lbs were over the 5 grains per pound


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

Where online can I get some info on the speed pros? A spine chart would be nice.

do they have anything that would be work in the following spec:

25.5 draw, 49lbs .

and 27.75 amo draw shooting 52lbs. I am looking for somthing in the 5gp/lb range that will not be over spinded, and cost a mint.

Thanks
Reed


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## Bostring (May 4, 2004)

Archeryaddict said:


> *Newberry BI
> TDC CAM
> DL 70#
> DL 29"
> ...


 Hope your arrow has the spine
if not ???????. Good Luck.
There are bows out there that are will produce these speeds at 
grains.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

> Hope your arrow has the spine
> if not ???????. Good Luck.


If it didnt I wouldnt be shooting it!!
that is the main reason these light arrows out penetrate heavier arrows.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

> do they have anything that would be work in the following spec:
> 
> 25.5 draw, 49lbs .
> 
> and 27.75 amo draw shooting 52lbs. I am looking for somthing in the 5gp/lb range that will not be over spinded, and cost a mint.


speed pro Econo 
and speed pro hunters are not as stiff as the MAX or Premiums
and will work very well on low poundage bows.

for more Info PM or E-mail me
Mike


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