# To the Clubs: How long are your Rhinehart inserts lasting?



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I think it is the KE and FPS of the bows now.


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## joshwebb (Feb 23, 2011)

It's all because of these guys shooting Olympic bows and calling them trad!! Lol sorry Jon! 

Halton just got a pile of new Rineharts because the MacKenzies are blown out after 2 years!!

I have suggested that maybe the cost per archer needs to increase! Let face it, the new bows cause more wear on the targets! No one wants to pay more, but it's only a matter of time before the targets cost more than the archers are paying to shoot at them! 

Just my 2 pennies!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I agree Josh, targets are more money (we have spent $12,000 in the last 8 months), archers are getting more accurate and bows faster. Even good recurves are shooting 200 to 220fps now. Perhaps it's time for an increase to $20, still good value for money. I will still charge double for any members of the trad police though


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## GWN_Nuge (Oct 1, 2004)

Bigjono said:


> I agree Josh, targets are more money (we have spent $12,000 in the last 8 months), archers are getting more accurate and bows faster. Even good recurves are shooting 200 to 220fps now. Perhaps it's time for an increase to $20, still good value for money. I will still charge double for any members of the trad police though


I hear ya, the price of shooting in at least our area hasn't changed for at least the last decade, a moderate increase wouldn't be a bad idea at all because let's face the cost of maintaning a 3D course isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination. I think a lot of people don't realize just how expensive the majority of targets are.


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## cody12 (Dec 7, 2004)

When they first came out they were the targets to get , easy arrow pull would last seemed forever but with anything else the company is making them cheaper for cost all round and on the 335 fps I don't know to may archers getting that kind of speed unless crossbows are used just my opinion......


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Catch 22 is, if you increase the price unilaterally, you will lose shooters at your next shoot, it needs to be agreed by all the clubs in your area I think.
Oxford did it last year and it nearly caused a riot but if all clubs said as if Jan 1st 2014 fees will be $20 I think it would work.


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## TRDJer (May 14, 2012)

Even Peel as just a target club, we are having a large problem with finding target material that lasts. Anything we have tried so far only lasts a few weeks/months. With the shooters we have who are high volume the yellow rings in the targets don't last long at any distance.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

tournaments are 20 dollars for a one day shoot around here already have been for 2 years or more....no one complains as long as targets in good shape and good food and prizes as well.. paid 20 bucks a while ago and won a drink coaster and a bottle of water that's a no no guys


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

when I started shooting a few years back I was told that the back scoring section was for compounds, but l honestly, I have never seen anyone shoot at it compound or not.
that would double the life ?. maybe an option is to encourage us some how to shoot the back also before looking at price increases. also do they give discounts on quantity or certain amount of $ order if so close by each other club could order collectively. shooting back vital may some how mess with your hunting game, not sure I do not hunt so forgive me if the idea is not so smrt.

wayne


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

Posts:47 It's all because of these guys shooting Olympic bows and calling them trad!! Lol sorry Jon!


lol, that is pretty funny gotta admit it, and i am one of them guys.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

The back kills are used so you can quarter the animal and still shoot the kill safely.

Me and my "trad" bow will be at Halton on Sunday to play. Don't do many shoots here now but Halton is always on my list, good course, good people and mankini friendly


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

cody12 said:


> When they first came out they were the targets to get , easy arrow pull would last seemed forever but with anything else the company is making them cheaper for cost all round and on the 335 fps I don't know to may archers getting that kind of speed unless crossbows are used just my opinion......


Cody12, I believe you may be correct but I am sure companies won't admit it. Even the easy pull larger targets seem to break down faster. The 335 fps was a figure that sums up the avg. IBO speed of some of the racing bows out there. Our targets lasted longer when speeds were 280 fps + 6% even with 300+ crossbows.

I think a price increase and a speed decrease could help the problem. I know many would not like a speed limit but won't matter if the clubs go broke. Most are non-profit and have no other source of revenue. 

As Ted stated we are also looking at draws for prizes at shoots to help with target funds.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I have shot them all over the past few years and I can tell you that the Rienharts are still the better targets, last year the IBO was changing inserts on the mckenzies every day on the defence range which is the 20 target practice range they have at every event. They were also changing inserts on the course during the event as well because the centre was punched out by Saturday afternoon on any target that was even close to 30 yards. 

As far as damage is concerned that is mostly due to more acurate equipment and archers, I can remember when 360 would win at a tournament counting 12 rings and now you typically need 405 or better with the 11 ring. Decreasing speed won't change the damage much on the course due to the fact that the bows are just more efficient now so if you slow me down I am only going to shoot a heavier, fatter arrow and my KE will go through the roof and probably do more damage. I shoot 70 lb bows for hunting and 3D, my 500 gr gold tips that regular diameter on my hunting rig will pop the tip out the back of a brand new Rienhart at 20 yards at 295 fps but my 362 grain x cutters going 336 fps on the target rig take quite a few shots to do that. 

A price increase is probably the best solution as long as the money actually goes to maintaining the courses, everyone loves shooting good courses with targets that are in good condition. Spend the money on good targets as well rock critters may cost a bit less initially but in the long run they burn out faster because they get shot at closer ranges. Medium and large targets can be placed out farther which will save the the amount of arrows being pounded into the center the inserts ar also bigger saving the target body itself from damage so you can replace many vitals before having to replace the whole target.


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## joshwebb (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear more people are on board with a slight increase in shooting fees!!
Jon is right!! If I raise the price at halton and the other local clubs refuse to adjust their prices, all I have done is run off my shooters?! This has to be a unanimous decision!! 
Also, Blake is right!! This can't be used for general profit, (not that I see the profit margin) the money had to go back to targets, course improvements, operating costs etc!! ...That's just good morals! 
I'm putting it out here and now!!!

Galt, York, royal, elmira, haha, and any other clubs in this area, as of 2014 should we all raise the price to 20$??


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## crazymoose (May 17, 2005)

At Durham Archers, all our 3D targets are Rinehart's.
They with stand the weather better and can take a lot more arrows.
Arrow removal is easier but I would recommend arrow lube which increases the life of the targets.
We also now have the Rinehart Walls that we are using on our butt range with great results to date.
Spend a little more and you get what you pay for, quality targets.
On some of our larger targets we've gotten 2 - 3 seasons out of the inserts.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

joshwebb said:


> I'm glad to hear more people are on board with a slight increase in shooting fees!!
> Jon is right!! If I raise the price at halton and the other local clubs refuse to adjust their prices, all I have done is run off my shooters?! This has to be a unanimous decision!!
> Also, Blake is right!! This can't be used for general profit, (not that I see the profit margin) the money had to go back to targets, course improvements, operating costs etc!! ...That's just good morals!
> I'm putting it out here and now!!!
> ...


HaHa is in for that. Halt and Oxford normally hold the first shoots of the year so they need to set the precedent.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

> my 500 gr gold tips that regular diameter on my hunting rig will pop the tip out the back of a brand new Rienhart at 20 yards at 295 fps but my 362 grain x cutters going 336 fps on the target rig take quite a few shots to do that.


There is only a 5.9 ft/lbs difference in the arrows above for KE. Seeing the Dia. is different the friction value on the xcutters would take a few more to punch through. That said given the cell structure of the foam for easy pull the xcutter would I think create a bigger wound to the foam and help cause insert failure faster. 

In any case a target that punches through on a first shot (todays high speed bows) with any arrow at 20 yards means that target manufactures are riding out the current design until sales drop because clubs can not afford them. If bigger targets are the answer than again we are in a financial bind.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Trust me, rienharts are better! Easy pull vs targets that last, you choose, the equipment is still going to tear up if people are in the middle more often with more energy, that's why replaceable core targets are better, the initial cost is more but inserts are cheaper to replace in the long run. Plus you have to remember that they are in the business of make money, so an indestructible will never be built as it would be means to an end for the manufacturer. A medium sized deer at 35 yards will not get torn up near as fast as a skunk at 20 yards.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Bow bandit said:


> Trust me, rienharts are better! Easy pull vs targets that last, you choose, the equipment is still going to tear up if people are in the middle more often with more energy, that's why replaceable core targets are better, the initial cost is more but inserts are cheaper to replace in the long run. Plus you have to remember that they are in the business of make money, so an indestructible will never be built as it would be means to an end for the manufacturer. A medium sized deer at 35 yards will not get torn up near as fast as a skunk at 20 yards.


Trust me I understand targets better than most. Rhineharts are a good target but they seem to have a limit now the racing bows are here. The special foam is not so special anymore. So what you think is we should be setting out target at 30+ yards to save the target destruction...................I think we were better archers at 280 fps and targets lasted a lot longer at 20 yards. We get 5 to 7 years out of our RW targets before they blow through and the pull on an average arrow shot at less than 300 is not that bad in the summer. I disagree that a good target would be an end to manufacturers as the shoot outs now will break clubs and in the end less of a target market to supply too. I do see a bright spot on the horizon, more bow companies are getting out of the speed game and into better shooting bows for archers who know how to estimate distances. I have a few shot out Rhineharts going to cut one in half and see if there is a harder core or at lease a more dense foam.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

My only thing with putting prices up is that clubs should still charge kids less. Halton charged full price last time and I don't agree with that.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

kids shoot at my tournament for free and still win great door prizes At 15-16 I charge as they are actually adults....


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> kids shoot at my tournament for free and still win great door prizes At 15-16 I charge as they are actually adults....


15 shoots from the adult peg then?


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## RoscoeP23 (Feb 27, 2013)

I have noticed that field points penetrate much deeper than target points, would this help if we all used target points? Cheers Roscoe


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

RoscoeP23 said:


> I have noticed that field points penetrate much deeper than target points, would this help if we all used target points? Cheers Roscoe


X2 bullet point are more forgiving


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

GenesisAlpha said:


> X2 bullet point are more forgiving


Some classes require screw in points but it would help yes.


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## Maxtor (Jan 7, 2007)

I'd agree on the price increase as well. However, whether its the $15 that we charge now at Lambton-Kent or $20, isn't going to make any difference if we continue to get only 5 shooters at our shoots. I got 3D going again at Lambton-Kent in an effort to bring back one of the nicest courses in our area and right now it looks grim. Really hard to convince the club to spend $1000 or more on new targets for only a half dozen shooters each time! 
If all the other clubs raise it to $20, we will follow suit to support it but without larger numbers of shooters, I just don't see new targets in the near future!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

most 15-16 yr olds want to shoot from the adult pegs to lay a spanking on the adults lol lol


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

it is 20 bucks every where for a 40 target course usually or at least 30 plus targets


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Maxtor said:


> I'd agree on the price increase as well. However, whether its the $15 that we charge now at Lambton-Kent or $20, isn't going to make any difference if we continue to get only 5 shooters at our shoots. I got 3D going again at Lambton-Kent in an effort to bring back one of the nicest courses in our area and right now it looks grim. Really hard to convince the club to spend $1000 or more on new targets for only a half dozen shooters each time!
> If all the other clubs raise it to $20, we will follow suit to support it but without larger numbers of shooters, I just don't see new targets in the near future!


Would be a shame to not have this property for 3D. It is the best by far for technical shooting in the area. Terry does a great job with a handful of others to set the course up, sometimes by himself (I remember those days) and that is setup and takedown. We need to do some real sit down with all the clubs this year and look at ways to get attendance up across the area. 

I agree 20 bucks is where we should be but it will not fix the attendance problems which if fixed would make target issue easier to take.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Drag it away from hunting and set courses the target guys would shoot too. Have a class for Oly style recurves and cut down on compound classes to make things simpler for new guys. Barebow finger, limited and unlimited is all you need. 
Uk 3D shoot, 170 people every week, all ore booked and pre paid, often a waiting list too. Round here, 40 if you're lucky. 
Split Ontario up into regions and have triple crowns in each region. The OAA needs to revamp how they view 3D and change things to help the clubs move forward.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

bigjono we have all those classes now with the oaa... the clubs need to help them selves some times ...a little effort goes along way ...get posters out there and get some donations for GOOD door prizes ....trophys and good looking class awards go along way...we have the new k50 class for the field guys even though it was implemented for beginner shooters...


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> bigjono we have all those classes now with the oaa... the clubs need to help them selves some times ...a little effort goes along way ...get posters out there and get some donations for GOOD door prizes ....trophys and good looking class awards go along way...we have the new k50 class for the field guys even though it was implemented for beginner shooters...


Ted, is there a class for Oly type rigs?
I meant that those 3 were the only compound classes needed, all the rest are just pointless. They only shoot from 50yds for gods sake, we should be shooting from those distances.


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