# which direction do you serve your center serving?



## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

If you twist your string and cables using splitters, your string twist from the center out. Well, when this happens the string twist one way from the center out while twisting the other way from opposite side still keeping the same direction, same twist etc. just depending on how your looking at it. My question is this...When it comes to your center servings/ idler servings etc. these servings cross the center where the string changes direction. I believe I talked with TNArcher on here about this at one time and he agreed with me and was confused about which way to serve as well. Any help is greatly appreciated.


Eric


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## Dthbyhoyt (Dec 4, 2004)

I serve all my serving in the same direction as the twist .


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## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

I do to. I twist the string clockwise and on the end that i twist the string from i serve in the same direction that I twisted. On the other I end I go the other way (while still staying clockwise( to keep the string "twisting tighter" to keep the twist in. But in the center it changes and you cant go both ways. Imagine taking a towel in your hand and ringing the water out. One hand goes towards you as the other one goes away. You serve each end in the direction your hand is going. This still gives you the same twisted look of the string through out the string. When it comes to the center parts of the string is where I have a hard time deciding which way to serve.


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## splitarrow08 (Jun 13, 2009)

If you look at the string your center/ idler wheel serving isnt in the exact center it over laps one way or the other so what I do is what ever side it over laps the most I serve with the twists on that side


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## wicked1Joe (May 19, 2009)

splitarrow08 said:


> If you look at the string your center/ idler wheel serving isnt in the exact center it over laps one way or the other so what I do is what ever side it over laps the most I serve with the twists on that side



Same here..


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## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

909bowsniper said:


> Same here..


My long awaited question is answered. Yes!!! That's the same way i do it to. Just wanted to check. :wink:


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*Same here*



Dthbyhoyt said:


> I serve all my serving in the same direction as the twist .


:darkbeer:


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## Green River (May 13, 2006)

I serve in the direction of the twist too but can you can still do it backwards? Do you serve to the post or away from the post?


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## wicked1Joe (May 19, 2009)

Green River said:


> I serve in the direction of the twist too but can you can still do it backwards? Do you serve to the post or away from the post?


I serve away...


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## jkeiffer (Aug 3, 2007)

I serve in the opposite direction of the twist so that there is a self tightening resistance between the serving and the string twists. this helps to keep the servings tight and not seperate.

later
jkeiffer


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## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

jkeiffer said:


> I serve in the opposite direction of the twist so that there is a self tightening resistance between the serving and the string twists. this helps to keep the servings tight and not seperate.
> 
> later
> jkeiffer


You are not really going in the opposite direction of the twist. You are just repositioning yourself on the string while still serving with the twist. If you are serving the string to tighten itself, then you are correctly serving. It's just your perspective that is changing. Many people lose twist in their finished strings and have peep issues and are stumped as to why. In actuality, they think they are serving with the twist when they are actually untwisting the string under the serving. Been there done that. :wink:


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## splitarrow08 (Jun 13, 2009)

Eric131 said:


> You are not really going in the opposite direction of the twist. You are just repositioning yourself on the string while still serving with the twist. If you are serving the string to tighten itself, then you are correctly serving. It's just your perspective that is changing. Many people lose twist in their finished strings and have peep issues and are stumped as to why. In actuality, they think they are serving with the twist when they are actually untwisting the string under the serving. Been there done that. :wink:


had that same issue when I first started maken strings, then came center serving seperation issues. Not anymore lol


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## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

splitarrow08 said:


> had that same issue when I first started maken strings, then came center serving seperation issues. Not anymore lol


What were you doing wrong with center serving?


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## splitarrow08 (Jun 13, 2009)

serving the wrong way lol


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Eric131 said:


> You are not really going in the opposite direction of the twist. You are just repositioning yourself on the string while still serving with the twist. If you are serving the string to tighten itself, then you are correctly serving. It's just your perspective that is changing. Many people lose twist in their finished strings and have peep issues and are stumped as to why. In actuality, they think they are serving with the twist when they are actually untwisting the string under the serving. Been there done that. :wink:


Well, I have hear this discussion over and over. *Which direction do you twist the string? And, which direction do you serve the string? * The easiest way to think of this is with a bolt. Most bolts are right handed. That is they tighten when they are rotated clockwise looking at the top of the head. So, if you are tightening the bolt looking at the side, if the head is on the left the wrench is rotated over the top towards you. If the head is on the right then the wrench is rotated over the top away from you.

Now, this seems simple enough. However, in one case, we had a Chief Engineer come into the drafting department and told everyone that we weren't going to order any more left handed nuts, because all you had to do was to turn a right handed nut over and it would work on a left handed bolt. Well he was a very smart man, but he was adamant about this decision. So, some of the other engineers had to take him a left handed bolt and a right handed nut to prove his declaration was wrong. He was terrible frustrated by having to say he was wrong.

Now, nuts and bolts are a little different than twisting strings. However, most string installers are going to twist a string clockwise looking from the end to tighten or shorten the string. Therefore, I would say that this should be the convention that most string makers should use when building a string.

*Why are we concerned about serving direction?* Well, I have my doubts that the direction of serving has an effect on peep sight rotation. What is the actual cause of peep sight rotation is moving the twisting while the string is being served.

Let's build a really screwed up string. We will make one color bundle an inch longer that the other. What happens when you twist it under tension? Well, the shorter bundle will see all the tension first. Then the second bundle will spiral around it. Is the string equally tensioned? No, basically the shorter bundle is holding all the tension. Will it ever equalize, probably not, but if the shorter bundle will stretch enough then over time it might be possible for it to equalize.

The point here is before we can serving the string we need to make sure we have a stable bundle. How is the best way of doing this. The best way is by twisting with separators while under a preloaded tension. I tried twisting from one end and twisting from both ends, but I found that both methods lacked some when tension was applied to the string bundle.

One of the things which makes the Little Jon so effective is the ability to twist under a preload and to be able to raise the tension and lower it to see if the string is stable. By stable, I mean that the string bundle should not turn when you raise or lower the tension. If it does and you want a string with no peep sight rotation, you need to correct this problem or forget serving the string and make a new one.

Assuming you have a stable string bundle. How do I serving it. Well first of all I always serving the string from the same end of the jig. This is because of the convince of adding and lower tension as necessary in the Little Jon. 

Before we start serving lets put just a little tension on the string bundle. Now, take your fingers and rotate the string hard in the center. Notice that the twisting will move. You will see the twisting will move from one side to the other side of your fingers. Now try it in a different place. As you get close to the post they will resist the tendance for the string to be moved towards the post. But, it really doesn't take too much distance before this resistance goes away. Now twist the string the other way. What changes? Not really too much, but notice that the twisting now moves in the other direction.

Does adding tension to the string bundle help to keep the twisting from moving. Definitely, but it is not a cure-for-all. The serving tool tension has to be kept reasonable. Now one real good reason for serving under tension is the string bundle is elongated and the bundle is somewhat contracted under the tension. This means that when the tension is released, the string bundle will swell outwards and will contract, moving the serving closer together and making it tighter underneath.

*So, which way do I serve?* Well, I have one real advantage with the Little Jon. I always work from the tensioning end. Normally, I serve in the direction of twisting. In other words, I always serve in the same direction as I twist the handle to twist the string. This for me is always in the direction that tightens the tension. Why this direction? Well, I try not to set my serving tool to tight because I know that this will move twisting. But, I always start at the post and serve outwards. If the tool is set too tight, this will move the twisting towards the center of the string and away from the serving. If I serve the other way, this will move the twisting towards the post and cause the twisting to be trapped underneath. Neither condition is good, but I feel the way I do it is the lesser of two evils.

Now, center serving is a little different. I don't serve it in the direction of twisting necessarly. I serve it for the hand of the shooter. The easiest way to determine this is with a finger shooter. The string rolls down the fingers when shooting with fingers. I apply the serving in such a way as to tighten the serving rather than make it loose. Oh, I know, your a loop shooter so that doesn't make any difference. Wrong!! A loop on a string is turned a little, not much, but it is also concentrated. So, over time it will tighten and will seperate under the nock and loosen it grip on the string, etc.

Now, as far as the idler wheel serving, I don't think it makes much of a difference, but I prefer to serve in the opposite direction of the end serving. I found that on a few strings, I made that if the end serving caused the string to rotate a little that sometimes applying the idler wheel serving canceled the end servings rotation.

Now, one last point I want to make is one of the advantage of the Little Jon. If you have any doubts about your serving tool tension you can stop serving and raise and lower the tension. If you had a string bundle that was stable before you started serving and then added a couple of inches of serving to it and it isn't stable then obviously the last two inches of serving caused the problem. So, you need to remove it and try again. Keep doing this as you serve and check the stability by raising and lowering tension.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*Please Not Again- LoL*



jkeiffer said:


> I serve in the opposite direction of the twist so that there is a self tightening resistance between the serving and the string twists. this helps to keep the servings tight and not seperate.
> 
> later
> jkeiffer


J this is going to get lengthy

:zip:


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*Amen*



Deezlin said:


> *So, which way do I serve?* Normally, I serve in the direction of twisting. In other words, I always serve in the same direction as I twist the handle to twist the string.


:wink:


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Eric131 said:


> If you twist your string and cables using splitters, your string twist from the center out. Well, when this happens the string twist one way from the center out while twisting the other way from opposite side still keeping the same direction, same twist etc. just depending on how your looking at it. My question is this...When it comes to your center servings/ idler servings etc. these servings cross the center where the string changes direction. I believe I talked with TNArcher on here about this at one time and he agreed with me and was confused about which way to serve as well. Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Eric


The question is not valid. Whether using splitters or not the finished string is either clockwise or counter clockwise. It can not be both. Serve in the direction that the string is twisted. It will look opposite but I assure you it is not, it can not be, as it is impossible.


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## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

EPLC said:


> The question is not valid. Whether using splitters or not the finished string is either clockwise or counter clockwise. It can not be both. Serve in the direction that the string is twisted. It will look opposite but I assure you it is not, it can not be, as it is impossible.


The string is twisted clockwise all the way down if twisted clockwise. This I know. But you must make sure you are on the correct side of the jig on each end when serving or make sure that if you stay on the same side that you know which way to turn the serving jig being toward you or away from you. I like to serve away from me so I hop on over to the other side of the jig.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Eric131 said:


> these servings cross the center where the string changes direction.
> Eric


This is what I was refering to... The string does not change direction. It is still clockwise or counter clockwise, whichever way it was twisted. I twist my strings clockwise and serve my strings clockwise from the post out. This requires a front to back serving from the right side of the jig and a back to front serving from the left side of the jig. Both are clockwise. I also serve my center servings clockwise as well. I do agree with deezlin though that if enough tension is applied on the string while serving, it probably doesn't matter. I alo believe most of the issue with instability is unwanted additional twisting under servings.


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## Eric131 (Oct 24, 2008)

:wink::darkbeer:


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Eric131 said:


> :wink::darkbeer:


Yes, on this we can agree


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

EPLC said:


> ....... I alo believe most of the issue with instability is unwanted additional twisting under servings.


Your really can't added twisting to the string while serving. You can only move the twisting. This creates unequal twisting and when the tension in increased or decreased the twisting will try to equalize. This causes peep sight rotation. The more let-off the string has the better the chance peep sight rotation will happen at full draw.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Deezlin said:


> Your really can't added twisting to the string while serving. You can only move the twisting. This creates unequal twisting and when the tension in increased or decreased the twisting will try to equalize. This causes peep sight rotation. The more let-off the string has the better the chance peep sight rotation will happen at full draw.


I think we are saying the same thing but wording it differently. What you call unequal twisting, I perceive to be adding twists or for that matter, removing twists while serving, which in my belief is the root of the problem in unstable peep rotation. No matter how you look at it, the twists under the serving end up unequal to the twists before and after the serving. The end result is either looser twists or tighter twists under the serving. 

For example: A sting that is served with little tension and a too tight serving tool will twist the string ahead of the serving direction. This area will be served over during the process causing the twists under the serving to be uneven to the rest of the string. To prove this, serve a string without adding any twists and see what happens during the process.


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## Dilligaf (Dec 25, 2005)

This is something i have been struggling with for a long time.
So what you guys are saying is that if your serving tool is set to tight when serving you are moving the twists toward the center of the string.

So serving a string under tension does nothing in this regard only to stretch the fibers and when relaxed make the serving tighter on the string.

I made a string today and i get the same thing when the cam roles over the peep rotates.

I will make another one tomorrow and this time i will serve the string with less tension on the serving tool. Will this solve my problem.

Just thinking what would happen if you served the string ends before twisting so under the serving there is no twisting would this be a better way of controlling the bunching twists.


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

*^^^^*

Im no pro but I wouldnt think this would be a good idea. I think your peep would be even more prone to twist if you built one this way.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Dilligaf said:


> Just thinking what would happen if you served the string ends before twisting so under the serving there is no twisting would this be a better way of controlling the bunching twists.


You would end up with a very unstable string/peep.


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

Dilligaf said:


> So what you guys are saying is that if your serving tool is set to tight when serving you are moving the twists toward the center of the string.
> 
> So serving a string under tension does nothing in this regard only to stretch the fibers and when relaxed make the serving tighter on the string.
> 
> .


If you serve in the wrong direction, opposite the way you twisted , then you will move the twists toward the center of the string, thus loosing twists under the serving. 

Look at this string that I served with white Halo, it was served in the opposite direction of the twists. 

Notice there are no twists under the serving.









Now look at this string that was served in the same direction as the twists.

Serving tool was tight enough to turn white Halo clear. No lost twists and no peep rotation.









Serving a string under tension helps keep the string from twisting while you apply serving which is under tension . It also helps to even strand tension too.

I feel like serving and burnishing under tension is a must for a good stable string.


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## Dilligaf (Dec 25, 2005)

Thanks guys for your help.

I have remade my string from yesterday well almost.

I have checked the stability of the bundle as Deezlin suggested and can raise and lower the tension with no rotation in the string so all is good so far.

Going back and remaking another string i can't say that i have really done anything different, I have always twisted in the same direction as the natural fiber twists and always using tension and separators to ensure good even bundles, then served in the same direction as the twist so it must be the amount of tension i put into the serving tool, which until now has been quite at lot, i never thought about pushing the twists as the amount of tension i use is quite a lot and really thought that wouldn't happen.

Anyway i am just letting the string settle in the stretcher while i have breakfast and then i will finish serving and set the bow up. I will let you know how i get on.

thanks again.

Scott


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## Dilligaf (Dec 25, 2005)

Well new string is now on the bow.
I used a peep in the string so i could watch and make sure that i didn't add twists as i was serving, After serving the string i then tried the weight on weight off to see how the string behaved.
To my shock the peep rotated nearly 360 degrees when the weight was almost off.
Not to be to discouraged i took the first string off the bow and replaced it with the new one i had just finished.

Tied in the Dloop and peep and yes the peep rotates but only about 10 degrees.
not to bad i can live with it.

I have pulled the first string down and re-twisted it, the bundle is stable so i am going to serve it again. This time i might start serving from the middle out, do you think this will make a difference.

What amount of twists are you guys putting into the string, I used to only put about 20 twists then some one said no that nowhere near enough so i then started to put 60 twist and my peep rotation got worst, i put 43 in the one i just made and its the best one i have done in a while.

So what is the optimum twists??


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

i would say minimum you would want is one twist per 1.5" 

im using 1 per 1.33 myself, and working on the perfect serving as mine move very slightly like yours


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

I have made them with one twist every 1.5" to one twist every 1.25". I personally think that one twist every 1.375" works best.

Just divide the finished length by 1.375 and you will get the # of twists to put in, I just round up or down to make it even.


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