# Hoyt Xtec all out of tune - need help please



## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

My 2005 Hoyt Xtec is all out of tune. 

It originally came with the #6 cam.5, but I had a local pro shop switch that out for a #3 cam.5 with new strings and cables. 

They did try to tune it, but didn't do so successfully. 

The ATA is all wrong - it's about a 1/2 too long. The control cable is about 1/4 away from the index hole in the top cam. The bus cable does intersect the index hole on the bottom cam. 

I have read thru the sticky at the top by Javi, but I still have more questions. 

And the tiller is out by 1/8 also. 

1. If my bow is all messed up like it is and everything is out - where do I start? 
2. Should I get the ATA right first? 

I desperately need help b/c I need to start practicing. Our archery season starts in September. 

Thank you in advance for your help.


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

You have to start with step one when you use the "JAVI" method. The problem you are going to run into is that if you switched cams and strings but not limbs you will not be able to look up a "true" spec. What spec are you looking at to figure that your a2a is a 1/2" long? You may be able to call HOYT and get the specs, not sure.

With that aside, you have to tune hybrid cams in sequence. With the limbs maxed out and the modules in the "E" position:

1: take about 10-12 twists out of the string.
2. use the control cable to set the a2a to 1/4" long
3: use the buss cable to sync the cams
4: now I usually go back and re-do steps 2 and 3, (because major changes in #3 will affect #2)
5: re-twist the string until your a2a comes back into spec. your DL and max LB should also come into spec. 

Sometimes if your bow is WAY out of tune you need to go through it twice, first to ruff it in and second to make it perfect. 

Just take it step for step and if you need anything let me know,

Mitch


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## thwackaddict (Sep 1, 2006)

practice-more said:


> You have to start with step one when you use the "JAVI" method. The problem you are going to run into is that if you switched cams and strings but not limbs you will not be able to look up a "true" spec. What spec are you looking at to figure that your a2a is a 1/2" long? You may be able to call HOYT and get the specs, not sure.
> 
> With that aside, you have to tune hybrid cams in sequence. With the limbs maxed out and the modules in the "E" position:
> 
> ...


I think several of these steps are wrong/switched around. Go back and read JAVI's sticky again.


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Thank you, and my appologies,

2: BUSS CABLE to adjust a2a (aka "Y" cable)
3: CONTROL CABLE to sync cams

I can do it blindfolded, but for some reason I can never keep the names strait.

Mitch


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Hoyt's tune charts don't show anything about poundage. I doubt the poundage of the limbs will affect how it is supposed to be tuned, but I'm not a Hoyt expert. 

They list the specifications for the bows based on which cam.5 and draw length. So for my bow it states in the "C" position. Should I tune here? If not, why not? 

Thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Hoyt's tune charts don't show anything about poundage. I doubt the poundage of the limbs will affect how it is supposed to be tuned, but I'm not a Hoyt expert. 

They list the specifications for the bows based on which cam.5 and draw length. So for my bow it states in the "C" position. Should I tune here? If not, why not? 

Thanks


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

If HOYT's tune charts list the specs in the "C" slot then yes you should use that setting to tune the bow.

The charts will not give a poundage, that will be listed on the limbs, but since you have changed cams that more that likely makes that incorrect.

What I am saying about poundage is that if you put different cams on the same set of deflection limbs you will get a different resulting poundage, AND this will affect the a2a measurement and the BH measurement.

Mitch


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

a2a & brace will follow the cams...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I have twisted the buss cable (shortening it) trying to bring the ata down, and the ATA is still 3/16 of an inch too long. The ata is supposed to be 35 5/8. The buss cable looks as though it has way too many twists in it. 

I took the string, bus cable, and control cable off and measured their lenght. They are all within specs of hoyt's tune chart except the control cable seemed to be 1/8 too long. 

So should I not worry about the ATA and just get the timing marks correct, the draw stops correct, and the tiller correct? 

If so, in what order should I approach this. 

thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Javi, 

Can you explain more please? 
thanks


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

When you change the cam on a Hoyt bow, the "NEW" cam sets the a2a and brace... look in the tune charts for that bow with those cams and the use those numbers as your reference. 

If you did not change limbs then you will lose between 4-6 pounds per cam size going down in draw length. 

As for tuning the bow; it will tune exactly the same as I wrote in the tuning guide... with the exception that for parallel limbed bows you do not back the string off as far.. probably no more than 3 or 4 twists max... 

Get the cams in time with the cams in sync (tiller even) and the draw length you're looking for and let the reference measurments fall where they will, they will be close but may not be exact..


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Is the reference hole on the top cam of the more of an indentation than an actual hole going completely thru the cam? 

When I look at it's position in the hoyt owner's manual it appears that the hole they are refering to is more of an indentation in the cam not a hole completely thru the cam. This cam has both.


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Forget the reference marks they are just that, "reference" marks.

The cams will be properly orientated and synced when:
1. The a2a and DL are correct
2. Both draw stops contact their respective cables at the same time.

Mitch


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

Reference make is a hole. Dont get confused by the top cam having 2 holes in it.


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## wblackfin (Nov 28, 2006)

Rainmaker said:


> Is the reference hole on the top cam of the more of an indentation than an actual hole going completely thru the cam?
> 
> When I look at it's position in the hoyt owner's manual it appears that the hole they are refering to is more of an indentation in the cam not a hole completely thru the cam. This cam has both.


As has been stated previously don't get too caught up with the reference holes. When the cams are in sync with the limbs bottomed out the tiller will be even. Even tiller is your best gauge for cam sync. I have found that the holes will fall into place when the tiller is even.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I do appreciate everyone's input, and I have been reading the sticky at the top on how to tune. 

I have done these steps so far: 

1. Removed string, control cable, and buss cable to measure each
2. Reinstalled all of the above with no twists 
3. ATA is at 35 15/16" when it is supposed to be at 35 5/8" 
4. Top limb tiller is 8 1/4" bottom limb tiller is 8 1/8" - limbs are bottomed out
5. Cams are in sync at this point - control and buss cable are intersecting their respective timing holes
6. Read the AMO standard on string and cable length - it states with no twist and loops on a 1/4 steel rod with 100 pounds of pressure applied will give one the AMO length of string and cable 
7. Spoke with Hoyt customer service rep this morning and he said that all Hoyt strings start with 20 twists in them from the factory and cables have 15 twists each 
8. Right now I have none to maybe 2 twists in the string and control cable - but I have had to put about 12 twists in the buss cable to even attempt to get the ATA close 
9. Now the ATA is at 35 3/4" still not where it is supposed to be and the bus cable looks like it has WAY too many twists in it - I'm afraid to twist it any more 

My conclusion is that the bus cable is out of spec. I'm going to take it to my local pro shop and see if they can put a shorter bus cable on it to see if that will help. If y'all know something I should do before I go let me know. 

Thanks


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## thwackaddict (Sep 1, 2006)

*I am stubborn.....*

I have never done one from scratch, but I have read Javi's sticky above about 300 times from front to back.

If I were you I would play with the control cable now to see if I could get the tiller even.... After maybe taking some twists out of the bus(read next paragraph). 

If I understood right you are only 1/8" long on ATA? Javi says to leave it 1/4" long when starting from scratch. You may even be able to take some twists out of the bus at this point. You can pull the ATA down some more after you have it synced and timed byt twisting the string. I also wouldn't worry much about 1/8" long ATA...that may just be me though.

If you can get tiller even I would move on to draw stop timing and would forget about sync(holes).

Next I would walk back tune... then paper tune.

I have tweaked two hoyts this past month and I kept shooting and tweaking for the whole month. They had new strings and cables and kept stretching. I think I have both of them settled in now.


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## Devilfan (Dec 11, 2004)

> As for tuning the bow; it will tune exactly the same as I wrote in the tuning guide... with the exception that for parallel limbed bows you do not back the string off as far.. probably no more than 3 or 4 twists max...


Javi, why only 3-4 twists out of the string on a parallel limb bow? What would be the effect if you took out 10 or 12 to start?


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

Rainmaker, That bow will tune with no problems if you follow Javis directions . Your problem comes from not twisting the cables and string enough. The Hoyt tech said they start their cables with 15 twists and you took all yours out ! If it was my bow (2006 UltraTec) I would put 15 twists in all 3 strings and start adjusting as per Javis directions. You have skipped the tiller adjustment, the draw length adjustment and the draw weight adjustment. To make a long story short you can twist until everything is in spec and then if the shop says there are too many twists you can get new strings. A picture would help a lot!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Bassman, 

You're exactly correct. I went to my pro shop yesterday to show them the bow. They did agree that I had too many twists in the bus cable. Again, the string, bus cable, and control cable are brand new hoyt. I bet I haven't shot the bow 5 times since they were installed with the new #3 cam.5. 

I am going to go do exactly as you recomended. I'm going to put the required number of twists in each string/cable and then follow Javi's steps from there. I'll let you know how it turns out. 

I'll try to get a pic later today. 
thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Here's where I am right now: 

1. Bottom cam is over rotated by probably an 1/8" 
2. Top cam is under rotated by same
3. Lower limb tiller is less distance than top limb tiller by 1/16 or so


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I think I have it. I'll post pics later. Thanks to all who helped.


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

To sync your cams and set tiller even , you might put a twist in the control cable and take a twist out of the buss cable at the same time. I have more pics if it will help!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Bassman, 

I followed your advice and put 15 twists in bc and cc yesterday, and then tuned from there. I didn't put any additional twists in the string b/c in Javi's instructions he said that he uses the string in the end to get ata, draw length, and draw wt to spec. 

After only doing 1 to 2 twists at a time I finally got the bow in tune. The bc and cc intersect their respective timing holes at the same place, and the draw stop timing is correct also. The only thing that wasn't perfect was the tiller was off maybe 1/16" or just slightly more, but less than an 1/8". So, the way I got tiller perfect was I backed the bottom limb out a 1/4 turn now the tiller is dead even. 

I tuned all this with the draw length set in the "C" setting. I then put the draw module in the "E" setting for my draw length. Everything stayed the same: tiller, cam sync, and draw stop timing. I twisted my string until I got the ATA close. Most bow manufacturers report ATA as approximate, but I guess Hoyt means exact. 

Anyway, My draw is 1/8" too short right now. I drew the bow back, had my wife place a mark on an arrow at the center of the berger hole - I measured that and added 1 3/4". I'm off an 1/8" which makes sense b/c my ATA is still 1/8" too long. I think my string may be a little long b/c I have over 20 twists in the string. 

How am I doing so far for tuning my first cam.5? 

One more question though: 

If my draw length is 27 or 27.5" will the #4 cam have a significantly smoother draw cycle than the #3 cam? I have the #3 cam on the bow right now, and with it set in the "E" setting - which feels rather short, I do have my bow arm bent - the draw cycle is very harsh - a very harsh rollover of the cam at the end. 

thanks


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

I think you've got it now. The first time takes a while but after that things fall into place quite easily.
Couple things:
DL on Hoyts are measured to deepest part of grip plus 1 3/4 not the center of berger hole. It is way in the back of the manual. It makes about 1/4 inch difference.
The shorter cams will feel very different for a while but after a week you will not notice.
The different positions on the cam do feel much more harsh when rolling over in the higher letter lengths. You will also get a little faster speed out of the bow in these lengths. You can decide if you would rather have a smoother draw then you might want the longer cams and set them on a lower letter.
Good Luck


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I have a some buzz and noise after the shot. I know I need to do some tweaking, but don't know where to start. Any suggestions? 

I'm shooting the bow without a stab, limb savers, or leeches to get it as quiet as possible without those items and then I'll add them later. 
thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I've gotten about as far as I can without someone with more experience helping me out. 

The bow shoots great as far as speed. I took all the noise reduction stuff off of the bow and shot it. It ony has a little vibration after the shot, but I don't think it will go away. 

I will then add back the limbsavers, stab, and cat whiskers. It's amazing how well those quad shox limb savers work. Very nice. 


Anyway - here's my end result and maybe problem.

1. ATA is 35 11/16 and it is supposed to be 35 5/8 or 35 10/16 so ATA is 1/16" long

2. Brace Height is 1/16" too short - it basically measures 6 3/4" to from pivot point of grip to the back of the string - but it's supposed to measure 6 3/4" to the front of the string

3. Limbs are bottomed out and poundage is 60 lbs.

4. Tiller is off just a tad - it isn't exactly dead even it is 21 cm to the back of the string on the bottom limb and 21 cm just inside the back of the string on the top limb which in turn means that the tiller on the top limb is about 1/32" greater than the bottom limb

5. My draw stop timing/cam rotation looks great to me it is where it is supposed to be based on description I did follow Javi's tuning method on untwisting the string and bus and then going from there. I basically now only have a few twists in the control cable, a a lot of twists in the bus cable, and a lot of twists in the draw string. I took all of the twists out of the draw string and ended up putting probably 25 or more back in it to get close to spec on ATA. 

So what do I do now? Isn't cam rotation/draw stop timing the most important? Should I twist the string more to get the ATA down? It seems by twisting the string to get the ata in spec as decreased the brace height which doesn't make sense b/c if you decrease ata it should increase brace height. At least it does with recurves and longbows. 

Thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I have a chain suspended from my ceiling that I hang my bow scale on. I take it off, and put a climbing d-ring on the chain then click the string into it. I push the bow down until it comes to full draw watching the cams rollover. Once at full draw and not pulling into the limbs I double check the cams.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

I have read the entire post and you keep using the "reference holes" as a measuring tool. Quit.
Here are the 5 "targets" I show in my DVD.
First target is A2A
Second Draw stop timing
Third is the tiller being even
Forth is setting you DL and BH
Fifth is checking the draw weight between every change you make to see if it is coming together.

The reference holes are just that reference. They usually line up but not always. you have had a cam swap and did not swap the limbs which may change the cam geometry to where the holes may not line up.

If you continue to have problems using JAVI's method you could check out my DVD and see if you like mine. I learned this using JAVI's method but have tweaked it to my liking and it is a tad easier to learn from what others have been telling me.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

I think I am pretty close. I know I have emphasized the reference holes, but since everyone has said they are just that - reference - I have been concentrating on everything else. Matter of fact, the reference holes are all where they are supposed to be in relation to each other right now. 

My field points group great, so much that I have messed up the fletching on a couple of arrows. 

My broadhead is hitting about 3 to 4" low compared to my field point. According to Easton's tuning guide I need to move my nock point lower. However, the way it looks my arrow will end up not parallel with the nock point lower than the tip. Doesn't sound right, but I'll give it a try unless someone has different input. 

Hoyt xtec - 60lbs - 27" draw - d loop
Carbon express rebel hunters - 4560 cut 26" BOP - 125 gr field tips 
using 125 grain Wasp sst 3 blade heads - flight is perfect for both setups except the bh groups 3 to 4" low at 20 - arrows fletched with three 3" right helical parabolic feathers 

thanks


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## wblackfin (Nov 28, 2006)

> My field points group great, so much that I have messed up the fletching on a couple of arrows.
> 
> My broadhead is hitting about 3 to 4" low compared to my field point. According to Easton's tuning guide I need to move my nock point lower. However, the way it looks my arrow will end up not parallel with the nock point lower than the tip. Doesn't sound right, but I'll give it a try unless someone has different input.


Remember to make very small adjustments to the rest or nock point. Doc did a nice job explaining BH tuning if you are not familiar with it here's the link.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=539460


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## Rainmaker (Feb 16, 2003)

Well, got it just right today. I shot through paper, and had a high nock tear. Needed to move my nocking point down, but moved my rest up instead to accomplish the same thing. Now it shoots bullet holes and my field tips and broadheads group great. 

The weird thing is this: my nocking point on my string is now below parallel b/c I had to move my rest up to get rid of the high tear. Everything is in spec: tiller, timing, brace, and ata. I couldn't really ask for a bow to shoot any better, but I've never heard of an arrow having to be nocked below parallel. It just doesn't look right to me. 

I'm using a quick shot whisker biscuit, and a d loop on my string. I use a scott little goose and a scott mongoose release. I'm right handed. Still scratching my head on this, but it shoots great. I am going to enjoy shooting it while preparing for our upcoming whitetail season. 

Thanks to all you have educated me, and thanks in advance to all of you who will continue to educate me on the finer points of bow tuning.


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