# Any Pros with opinion on NFAA RIC2010-6



## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

is there anything up on the NFAA site? Or is that a stupid question?:wink:


----------



## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> is there anything up on the NFAA site? Or is that a stupid question?:wink:


I have looked the NFAA website up and down trying to find any RIC Rulings (Rules Interpretation Committee) to absolutely no avail.

RIC2010-6 basically says that any State association that allows a non NFAA member to shoot in a "guest class" at either the indoor or outdoor State championship tournament is in violation of the Constitution/By Laws. 

It goes on to say: "Lack of compliance could result in Expulsion or Suspension of Association Membership."


----------



## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Yes, I support it until it gets changed.

Don't aggree with it on only one level. And that is the fact that the fence sitters who want to participate in the higher level shoots (State, Sectionals and Nationals ) to either see what they can do or to participate with their member peers, do not want to spend the big dollars to become a member for a one time experience in their area. Since these people will "never pony up the extra money" willingly the NFAA membership will not grow and tournament attendance will still suffer. If on the other hand there was a higher fee imposed for the "non wanna play with us for awards" people both organizations (host and parent) would bennefit for their efforts to put on these shoots. Ken


----------



## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

pragmatic_lee said:


> I have looked the NFAA website up and down trying to find any RIC Rulings (Rules Interpretation Committee) to absolutely no avail.
> 
> RIC2010-6 basically says that any State association that allows a non NFAA member to shoot in a "guest class" at either the indoor or outdoor State championship tournament is in violation of the Constitution/By Laws.
> 
> It goes on to say: "Lack of compliance could result in Expulsion or Suspension of Association Membership."


This certainly does go on.


----------



## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

I have a slightly different take on it. This is happened a couple years ago at our state indoor (Indiana). A kid (10-12 yr old) walked in to register. He was a local and the range he shoots at told him about the event. He and his parents had never heard of the NFAA. He just wanted to shoot in the state event being that it was local. At first they told him he couldn't shoot because he wasn't a NFAA member. I asked if he could shoot as a visitor and they let him.

I'm not advocating letting people shoot year after year as a guest. But I don't think letting someone shoot one time as a guest/visitor hurts anything. Perhaps it will draw interest in the event and bring a couple more shooters into the sport and expose them to the NFAA in a positive manner. Kinda like giving someone a free sample at the ice cream parlor. :tongue:


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> I have a slightly different take on it. This is happened a couple years ago at our state indoor (Indiana). A kid (10-12 yr old) walked in to register. He was a local and the range he shoots at told him about the event. He and his parents had never heard of the NFAA. He just wanted to shoot in the state event being that it was local. At first they told him he couldn't shoot because he wasn't a NFAA member. I asked if he could shoot as a visitor and they let him.
> 
> I'm not advocating letting people shoot year after year as a guest. But I don't think letting someone shoot one time as a guest/visitor hurts anything. Perhaps it will draw interest in the event and bring a couple more shooters into the sport and expose them to the NFAA in a positive manner. Kinda like giving someone a free sample at the ice cream parlor. :tongue:


From Experience, I will darned near guarantee you that if you don't allow the person to shoot, you not only lose that person, but you lose ALL of his/her friends and acquaintances, and the State and National associations also get a black eye out of it.

I'm agreeing with Ken when he mentions a higher fee for "non-members" to shoot for the awards. I've been a devout person against "free-loaders" that keep coming to shoots as NON-MEMBERS, and expect to pay the same fees and shoot for the same awards as PAYING MEMBERS...that is BS, IMHO.

However, I"m not opposed to a ONE-TIME case to allow a 'non-member' to compete for State Level awards, so that they have the opportunity to compete and see what the organization/tournament experiences are like. IMHO, no harm done there.
However, at the same time, this same person(s) should not expect to continue to "free-load" for the entire year, or subsequent years...either pay up...or you don't qualify for awards...>OR...you pay a HIGHER ENTRY FEE to enter the tournament as a non-member of the State/National Association.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> I have a slightly different take on it. This is happened a couple years ago at our state indoor (Indiana). A kid (10-12 yr old) walked in to register. He was a local and the range he shoots at told him about the event. He and his parents had never heard of the NFAA. He just wanted to shoot in the state event being that it was local. At first they told him he couldn't shoot because he wasn't a NFAA member. I asked if he could shoot as a visitor and they let him.
> 
> I'm not advocating letting people shoot year after year as a guest. But I don't think letting someone shoot one time as a guest/visitor hurts anything. Perhaps it will draw interest in the event and bring a couple more shooters into the sport and expose them to the NFAA in a positive manner. Kinda like giving someone a free sample at the ice cream parlor. :tongue:


I think this has happened more than once over the years as i have been there for a lot of years. They let the guest shoot but are not up for any of the state titles if i remember right, but give out a guest medel or something just so they did get something for shooting.


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

In the NFAA constitution Artical III B 2.7.4 says that NFAA membership requirements may be waived at State level only in guest divisions not shooting for awards and article I B 8 defines guest as: Guest Competitor – Refers to an NFAA member shooting at an event outside of their respective State or Section.

So you can have a guest division at state for non-state members who are NFAA members from another state, but they can't shoot for awards.

The original definition in this thread of the RIC ruling is misleading. This must be a situation where guests were allowed to compete for awards, which is obviously something that the NFAA would not allow.


Tempest in a teapot I think - the RIC is just clarifying the rules that have been in place for years and years and all violations of the NFAA rules and constitution carry the possiblity of expulsion or suspension - that is just a general clause that has nothing to do with this specific violation.


----------



## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

Personally I think guest should be allowed to shoot. There is virtually no other way to get the sport to grow if you don't allow guests to shoot. Guests would not be allowed to compete for State Championship awards. If you let them shoot they may enjoy themselves and decide that they would like to join the NFAA and the state org. If not, then the hosting club has made some extra money that they otherwise would no have. Most everyone that shoots field archery should know how hard it is to make enough money to keep the ranges up in good shape. It basically seems to me that it is a nobrainer. Even if some of the guests don't want to pony up the money to join the organization, the club will benefit from the extra income and it cost's the club nothing for awards for the guest. The club will also most likely benefit from that guest buying food and drink for the day. If a guest does this for a couple of years and his shooting improves, he may eventually decide he is ready to compete for a State Championship. I think we all need to look at this along with all of archery more open mindedly. I know some people will not agree with this but it's a fact that what we are doing now is not working at the state level. 
Well, that's my take on this subject and hope I haven't affended anyone. I honestly think we need to change our approach to how we do business.

Take care,

Kendall


----------



## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Kendall the only ones that you would be offending are the stale old gaurd on this and only because of the direct financial impact on the Parent (NFAA) organization. If they get you to be a member then it's their advantage, if they don't they still have not lost any money. Ken


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

SuperX said:


> In the NFAA constitution Artical III B 2.7.4 says that NFAA membership requirements may be waived at State level only in guest divisions not shooting for awards and article I B 8 defines guest as: Guest Competitor – Refers to an NFAA member shooting at an event outside of their respective State or Section.
> 
> So you can have a guest division at state for non-state members who are NFAA members from another state, but they can't shoot for awards.
> 
> ...


Not misinterpreted at all. The RIC ruling specifically says that non-NFAA members cannot shoot period...Not in guest class, not for no awards...they cannot participate...very short sighted IMHO...

We will not turn away a shooter at any time in NC for any reason...they won't shoot for awards until they pony up, but what good can it do to tell someone they aren't welcome???

This isn't about NFAA members shooting outside of their state...


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

folks, when will we get to the point of following the rules?
There are any number of weekly tournaments that could be shot in your state with out NFAA membership. Why must every one want to use the state championship to bring in new memberships. 
What every one fails to realize, that the state shoot is one of the requirement that must be done in order to belong to the NFAA & the nFAA rules cannot be changed for it. Any other shoot you run, you can do what you wish. 
I know all about the idea of promoting the archery. You have 50 weeks a year to do so, But the two tournaments that will keep you in compliance with your charter with the NFAA are the state championships.

If You( pasargent) chose not to run with the rules, Then your councilman may not sign your compliance papers.
I personally wish there was a better way, but until the rules get changed , the rules have to be followed. 
Be careful what you wish for. If the rules get changed, I see the NFAA going down the drain. mOst people who shoot in their state championships don't go to Nationals or Sectionals. If they can shoot in their own state shoot, Why belong to the NFAA. Member ship goes down & eventually it dies. 


the RIC rulings will not be on the NFAA web. Call your director for the readings & interpretations. That;s why they are there


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

brtesite said:


> folks, when will we get to the point of following the rules?
> There are any number of weekly tournaments that could be shot in your state with out NFAA membership. Why must every one want to use the state championship to bring in new memberships.
> What every one fails to realize, that the state shoot is one of the requirement that must be done in order to belong to the NFAA & the nFAA rules cannot be changed for it. Any other shoot you run, you can do what you wish.
> I know all about the idea of promoting the archery. You have 50 weeks a year to do so, But the two tournaments that will keep you in compliance with your charter with the NFAA are the state championships.
> ...



Said NFAA State Director will go un-named, but I was present at the course inspection, and I also was there to hear this from an NFAA State Director several years back. After he said this, the particular course went to hell in a hay basket, and for a period of at least 6 years, there were ZERO NFAA chartered tournaments on said course! "New blood" came into the club, saw what had happened, and did what it took to get the course back AND comply with the RULES
Back then, the rule was that the CLUB had to hold AT LEAST ONE sanctioned NFAA event per year to maintain their charter. We (target shooters) had been using this for about 5 years as a "baseball bat" to make sure we had a FIELD/HUNTER tournament at the course every year, and to keep the high star rating we had. There were those in the club that wanted ZERO NFAA tournaments...but ALL bowhunter events, period.
During the official course inspection, one of the "ANTI-TARGET SHOOTER" members asked the NFAA State Director straight out: "I hear that we have to hold at least ONE NFAA sanctioned tournament each year in order to keep our Charter. Is this true."
What that NFAA Director said still haunts me all these years later: "YES, the rules do say that your club, in order to maintain your Charter MUST hold at least ONE NFAA sanctioned shoot per year. However, I'm choosing NOT to enforce that rule, so you guys do NOT have to do that." I about crapped my pants over this total disregard for the written rule from a DIRECTOR>

Again, it was 5 or 6 years before another "Sanctioned" NFAA Event was held on that course! We were totally dead in the water as target shooters and had a heckuva time keeping the course up. At one time, it didn't even meet NFAA standards...after having been a 4-star course for years, and then for a short-time a 5-star course.
THAT is the amount of damage that was done by a DIRECTOR not "enforcing the rules as they were written."

So...it isn't always CLUBS or State Associations that skirt the rules.

I was there, I saw it, and heard it with my own ears!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

Mike, I hate to say this but the NFAA looks like it's going down hill anyway. I hope I am wrong but we'll see. I know in certain divisions that there is virtually no growth, and at present there is really no reason for it to grow. The bad thing is that the upper echelon of the NFAA seems like they do not care. If things don't change in this particular division, I only see the division dieing out. Like I say, I hope I am wrong, but I know there are a lot of unhappy people in this division.



brtesite said:


> folks, when will we get to the point of following the rules?
> There are any number of weekly tournaments that could be shot in your state with out NFAA membership. Why must every one want to use the state championship to bring in new memberships.
> What every one fails to realize, that the state shoot is one of the requirement that must be done in order to belong to the NFAA & the nFAA rules cannot be changed for it. Any other shoot you run, you can do what you wish.
> I know all about the idea of promoting the archery. You have 50 weeks a year to do so, But the two tournaments that will keep you in compliance with your charter with the NFAA are the state championships.
> ...


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

brtesite said:


> folks, when will we get to the point of following the rules?
> There are any number of weekly tournaments that could be shot in your state with out NFAA membership. Why must every one want to use the state championship to bring in new memberships.
> What every one fails to realize, that the state shoot is one of the requirement that must be done in order to belong to the NFAA & the nFAA rules cannot be changed for it. Any other shoot you run, you can do what you wish.
> I know all about the idea of promoting the archery. You have 50 weeks a year to do so, But the two tournaments that will keep you in compliance with your charter with the NFAA are the state championships.
> ...


Don't worry Mike...we're abiding by the rules...I just happen to think they're stupid rules...

Our State Championship will be for NFAA members only...I still fail to see how allowing people to shoot for no awards hurts us... 

I know you give a lot to this sport and have for years, I mean what I am about to say with absolutely no disrespect. It is hard to say something like this over the internet withoiut offending someone, but here goes...

That kind of thinking by you and the others in charge is exactly the problem with the NFAA today. Too many people out to protect their little slice of the pie, and not enough people doing what is best for the organization. You see this in everything from the inability to get the number of classes reduced, to scheduling OD Nationals against the ASA classic. That all might have worked when the NFAA was the only game in town, but times have changed and not for the better...

I can remember taking registration at a local Sunday shoot that drew 140 shooters back in the '80s...we're lucky to get 50 different shooters in a whole year for field archery now...

I simpy haven't seen the phenemenon you're predicting...we have always in the past allowed guests at our state field. 10 years ago we had 6 competitiors at our state field shoot, this year we should have closer to 30. Now I know those numbers are small, but thats a 5X increase...How many other states can say that?

As for your threat of pulling our charter... we will be in compliance...but we're still not turning away shooters...:wink:


----------



## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Thank you all for your input. 

Frankly I can see both sides of this and neither has a thing to do with someone paying NFAA dues or not.

1) I'd hate to see anyone not be allowed to shoot. If they've made to effort to come out, then let's please not send them home without letting them shoot - just pay the "guest/visitor" fee.

2) Any of you that know me or have shot with me know that I will make an extra effort to personally welcome a new person when they show up at my home club (Durham County Wildlife Club DCWC). In fact, I will usually group myself with that person/persons to ascertain that they are properly shown how the game is played AND to be sure they do not take the wrong route off the range should they need/want to leave early. But if this is the State Championship, even as a rank amateur, I'd kinda hate to be grouped with someone that has possibly never shot a Field round before. It's one thing to be certain a newbie shoots the fans and walk ups correctly at regular tournament, but at the State level no one should be strapped with the added responsibility of watching out for someone else.

So no, I don't want to see anyone turned away from any shoot, but if it is a State level shoot, then any visitors/guests should NOT be grouped with those in competition. 

Again, thanks for the Pro opinions.


----------



## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

As a prior Director here is my take. First the rules are there for a reason, if you are not a member then you cannot play. It is that way with every organization I know of, if you don’t like the rules have them changed. Have your state submit an agenda item, if enough state agree then the rule will be changed. When you write the agenda item make it clear and concise. 

If we are driving away potential members that is not good, if we are allowing non members to shoot and walk away, that is worse. Every state that I know of has an “open” shoot to allow non members a chance to see what it is all about, that is where they can come play.


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Don't worry Mike...we're abiding by the rules...I just happen to think they're stupid rules...
> 
> Our State Championship will be for NFAA members only...I still fail to see how allowing people to shoot for no awards hurts us...
> 
> ...


Sarge, this has nothing to do with protecting a slice of the pie. It's a funny thing , that the directors put those rules in the book many years ago. Now they want them out . Well so be it . 
I don't take offense at what you said about mine & the people in charge's thinking, but I'll ask you, should the officials follow the rules that the states thru their directors put in the book or should we say screw you , we will do what ever we want . I really would like an answer. Do you want a good old boys club, or some integrity?
We have enough of people say this already. 
Do you think that we have not thought about reducing the number of classes. Who's, yours? Those things can only be done by the directors, & none of them will give up their own. Now where are we. 
As for scheduling against the ASA, My friend I think you have it wrong . NFAA has had the same week for most of my time which is quite long. The ASA went against us .

As I said before, there's a crap storm a coming over this guest class. 
I personally feel everyones pain( a little Clinton here).& I agree that it doesn't hurt to have people come & shoot. I know that clubs are cash poor. 
The Answer is to get that rule out of the book . That needs an agenda from the states. 
If the officials do it, we will get our heads handed to us. 
How ever , if it happens, unless you are a very strong supporter of the NFAA, the only one that will join the NFAA are the ones who go to Sectional & Nationals & that is not very many from all the states. How many would your state send?
So you see it is not that easy a fix. As for pulling your charter that would not be my decision, it would be Tim's. 
I too remember 300 + at our state shoot. 
mike


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> Mike, I hate to say this but the NFAA looks like it's going down hill anyway. I hope I am wrong but we'll see. I know in certain divisions that there is virtually no growth, and at present there is really no reason for it to grow. The bad thing is that the upper echelon of the NFAA seems like they do not care. If things don't change in this particular division, I only see the division dieing out. Like I say, I hope I am wrong, but I know there are a lot of unhappy people in this division.


Kendal, what division. Yes we do care .
I do really lay awake a t night trying to come up with solutions. 
I would like to have shoot what you brung. Shoot against a group of scores. 
Set it up like vegas. I don't know .


----------



## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Joe / Mike,
Food for thought - I think it can be argued that the existing "rules" can and have been interpreted different ways in the past. It is very clear that by the content of this RIC there were different interpretations at the State shoot that generated this request to the committee.

And I don't think any State association has allowed a non-NFAA member to shoot at a State tournament *and believed* they were violating an existing rule. 

So (I think) that before an Agenda item is added that would say YES or NO in regards to non-NFAA members shooting at State Championship shoot, it must be determined by the "powers that be" whether or not the RIC made a "proper interpretation" of the existing rules.

If they did, then if it is so desired that this rule is "bad" then an Agenda item would be warranted to change the rule. If the RIC was in error, then the RIC would simply be overturned and all would be back to where it was. 

Let's don't get the cart before the horse - the real question "now" is if RIC2010-6 was a proper interpretation of the existing rules. Personally, I do not think it was. To me this RIC's "justification" is a bit of straw grasping, maybe as an effort to stand behind the Director. 

Why do I think it was not a proper interpretation? Because if it was, it would be 180 degrees off from what is stated in the ByLaws Article VI, Section K, Rule 6 in regards to guests at the NFAA Marked and Unmarked Tournaments National and Sectional.

Really folks, when I started this thread it was never meant to be any kind of bash of the NFAA nor the Director who requested the RIC.


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Joe / Mike,
> Food for thought - I think it can be argued that the existing "rules" can and have been interpreted different ways in the past. It is very clear that by the content of this RIC there were different interpretations at the State shoot that generated this request to the committee.
> 
> And I don't think any State association has allowed a non-NFAA member to shoot at a State tournament *and believed* they were violating an existing rule.
> ...


Lee, as it is set up, the officials can not determine if the RIC is right or wrong. It can only be done by the directors to over turn the decision. It doesn't happen very often, but RICs have been over turned. I can assure you that the RIC was not trying to cover the directors rear. There are three people on it.


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

brtesite said:


> Sarge, this has nothing to do with protecting a slice of the pie. It's a funny thing , that the directors put those rules in the book many years ago. Now they want them out . Well so be it .
> I don't take offense at what you said about mine & the people in charge's thinking, but I'll ask you, should the officials follow the rules that the states thru their directors put in the book or should we say screw you , we will do what ever we want . I really would like an answer. *1) Do you want a good old boys club, or some integrity?*We have enough of people say this already.
> *2) Do you think that we have not thought about reducing the number of classes. Who's, yours? Those things can only be done by the directors, & none of them will give up their own. Now where are we. **3) As for scheduling against the ASA, My friend I think you have it wrong . NFAA has had the same week for most of my time which is quite long. The ASA went against us .*
> As I said before, there's a crap storm a coming over this guest class.
> ...


1- I agree we should do our best to abide by the rules. However getting anything done on a National level is next to impossible. There are too many folks looking out for their slice of the pie and don't tell me there aren't...you and I both know that isn't true. This particular ruling however just re-enforces the Good old Boys club...sorry...Give me 1 single good reason someone shouldn't be allowed to shoot for no award. You keep saying they won't join...it hasn't proven true in our state...

2- Exactly my point. Everybody to absorbed in protecting their slice of the pie to do what is best for the organization. Go ahead and eliminate my class. Won't bother me a bit, I don't shoot for awards, I shoot for the enjoyment of it all. I don't even usually take them on the rare chance I do win one...

3- I'm fully aware of that. It isn't right that they would do that to us and I appreciate we were there first. But let's face the facts, the ASA classic draws how many shooters?? In the thousands right? NFAA nationals draws how many...???

We're not the 800 pound gorilla of outdoor archery anymore...the sooner we realize that the better...just because they scheduled against "our date" is no reason to keep letting them eat our lunch. 

4- Honestly Mike, if this were written as an agenda item, what do you think its chances would be? Probably the same as the arrow rule that wasn't...

5- I'm sorry, but what you're saying isn't happening. We don't let non-members shoot for awards, but we do let them shoot. We make sure they get with a group where they will enjoy themselves and learn the ruls of the game, and by the following year, most are shooting as members...I still cannot think of a single good reason to tell someone they aren't welcome. Those kinds of things tend to snowball you know, and are a big part of the perception problem the organization faces in the non-target circles.

What we really need to do is take a step back and re-evaluate the value proposition of being an NFAA member for the majority of archers out there. I'm sorry, but if the only reason to join is to compete in some tournament, we're going to get our arses handed to us in membership losses (oh wait, we already are)...


----------



## BowStrapped (Aug 3, 2010)

I can say...

I use to shoot archery 8yrs ago and this year I made the leap to get back into it again. I have been to a couple of archery clubs that the AT members above belong to or run as a 'guest'. The drive alone to make it to their shoots is anywhere from 1.5-2.5hrs and the turn out for the shoot is pretty minimal ( 10 or less shooters total ). I cant imagine being turned away from being able to shoot because Im not a NFAA member. Luckily I was allowed to shoot for no awards but I was still happy to just have the opportunity to shoot. 

Archery is a small sport in some places and if one wants to shoot in ANY kind of tournament then they will have to make the several hour drive as I have to do...even if youre not allowed to compete for awards. 

Any archery organization has to have rules that will allow any archer to shoot at their event even if its not for any awards. Turning people away does nothing to help the sport move forward.

btw....Im now a 'official' NFAA member


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Not misinterpreted at all. The RIC ruling specifically says that non-NFAA members cannot shoot period...Not in guest class, not for no awards...they cannot participate...very short sighted IMHO...
> 
> We will not turn away a shooter at any time in NC for any reason...they won't shoot for awards until they pony up, but what good can it do to tell someone they aren't welcome???
> 
> This isn't about NFAA members shooting outside of their state...


the RIC ruling was just following the rules. As I pointed out (somewhere in the 2 threads on this topic) you can have as many state shoots of NFAA rounds as you want but for the ones that count toward your charter with the NFAA, you can not have non-NFAA members. Any guest class in these shoots must be for NFAA members shooting outside of their own state of affiliation. 

From the NFAA Director's ruling: "this being one of the two required shoots required by the NFAA for association membership that all shooters must be NFAA members even if they are guests"

So yeah, it is about NFAA members shooting outside of the state, any other use of guest class in the context of the WAA state field is against the rules and does not apply.


----------



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

psargeant said:


> 1- I agree we should do our best to abide by the rules. However getting anything done on a National level is next to impossible. There are too many folks looking out for their slice of the pie and don't tell me there aren't...you and I both know that isn't true. This particular ruling however just re-enforces the Good old Boys club...sorry...Give me 1 single good reason someone shouldn't be allowed to shoot for no award. You keep saying they won't join...it hasn't proven true in our state...
> 
> 2- Exactly my point. Everybody to absorbed in protecting their slice of the pie to do what is best for the organization. Go ahead and eliminate my class. Won't bother me a bit, I don't shoot for awards, I shoot for the enjoyment of it all. I don't even usually take them on the rare chance I do win one...
> 
> ...


Sarge, lets go over it all
#1 you did not answer my question You skirted it
You also have given up saying you can't get any thing done . Have you tried?
The good old boys are who? It sure as hell not the officers. The ruling didn't come from some good old boys club. It came from a committee that is enforcing what the the states put in . I personally wish they would be allowed to shoot . /
The reason I'll give is because thats what is in the constitution. You have a director, get him to put an agenda in. 
#2 your right they won't give up any thing. Again, that can only come from the states. I know there are many out there that don't like to hear me say tis, but it is a fact. That book cannot be changed with out the states approval 

#3 It really is not a problem except for some of the pros. They have to make up their minds which ones they have to attend to make the most money. 
Most of the directors would not be going to the ASA , so they won't be giving in to changing the dates. 

#4 I don't really know , but you will never find out if you don't try. I am going to bring this up at our planning meeting in Sept. At least we can talk about it. 

#5 I do agree, but my job is to try to do the best I can with the rules that the states have mandated.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Don't worry Mike...we're abiding by the rules...I just happen to think they're stupid rules...
> 
> Our State Championship will be for NFAA members only...I still fail to see how allowing people to shoot for no awards hurts us...
> 
> ...


I personally STRONGLY DISAGREE with what is in red above. The NFAA has had their OD Nationals the last full week of July since I've been in competitive archery...1968....and well before that. It might even fall back as early as 1939! Thus, it is NOT the NFAA that schedules the OD Nationals against the ASA Classic...but the other way around. I don't care what the 3-Der's think about "more competitors"...ASA infringed upon the NFAA's "territory" by scheduling their classic against that date. As far as picking up way more shooters by changing the NFAA OD Nationals to a different date...forget it...the 3-Der's won't come anyways. Too many arrows, too many days, and probably other excuses. The "For the bowhunters and "for" the 3-Der's argument is tried and old....it doesn't cut it.

Now on the allowing NON-MEMBERS to qualify for State Championship awards in a SANCTIONED NFAA STATE tournament...>HOGWASH! I say do NOT turn them away, but dad nab it...either charge them double to "ante up", or make them JOIN the NFAA to "qualify" for the same awards as the PAID UP MEMBERS, plain and simple. 
Once again, "free-loaders" are out there running rampant.....and that includes for local 3-D events as well. They want to come in, pee and moan about anything and everything....pay the same fee as club members and/or affiliated shooters....bust up the targets, and take the same awards. But do they SUPPORT their LOCAL CLUBS...NO, many don't. They want it "free gratis" and let everyone else support the club with their dues.
Once again...I SUPPORT allowing "Cross-breeding"...that is....show us an ASA membership card, show us an IBO Membership card, show us an official CLUB MEMBERSHIP card...and you are "in like Flint" and welcomed to compete by paying the same fees. However, if you are not a member of any organized archery club, or association...ANTE UP a higher entry fee. Otherwise, you don't shoot for any awards, period< Let alone a State championship certificate/recognition.

They allow the "Pros" to compete in the PRO division "cross-bred"...that is an NFAA Pro can shoot IBO or ASA PRO...and be eligible. I'm not sure about the "average joe" on that issue however. If it isn't that way, then it, IMHO, should be.

Once again, go try to bowl in a city bowling tournament or a State Bowling tournament...or even compete in an ABC bowling league....WITHOUT JOINING the ABC....and see how far you get. FREELOADERS not allowed.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Folks,
I have tried to get the MODS / Admins to lock this thread. It was meant to be a discussion about the validity of RIC2010-6. Instead it has turned into just another pissing contest.

Sorry I even thought that a rational discussion could be had.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I know of a particular state that MADE THE CHANGE to a ONE DAY State Field tournament....and went from 15 shooters to having right at 100 or more!
Tried to get that done in my state...and was laughed at. "OUR state field has always been TWO days, and it is going to STAY that way. It is something that isn't broken, and doesn't need fixing."

Oh, really? Then why are there less than 30 shooters at the State Field Tournament, and a drastic drop in the number of affiliated NFAA Clubs within the state? Wouldn't one want to call that "system"...>BROKEN? Trying the same old thing time and time again and expecting different results? Problem is, yes, there are different results, all right...DOWNWARDS!

I know of at least 8 persons that have joined bordering states' NFAA Asssociations because of the better support in said "other bordering states". Several others are "sitting on the fence" waiting until November to make their decision for next year. That is sad, indeed. They'll drive the extra miles just to get better support for their NFAA/State dues in another state!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

brtesite said:


> Sarge, lets go over it all
> #1 you did not answer my question You skirted it
> You also have given up saying you can't get any thing done . Have you tried?
> The good old boys are who? It sure as hell not the officers. The ruling didn't come from some good old boys club. It came from a committee that is enforcing what the the states put in . I personally wish they would be allowed to shoot . /
> ...


This thread has gone a completely different direction than the OP intended. I am going to keep my nose out of it from here on.

I will part with this, I am more than a little surprised at how much we agree on Mike. I just wish the other councilmen/women and directors were on the same page. I'd love to have a conversation about it next time I come to a big shoot...and thanks for your continued service to our organization..and for making one hell of an arrow rest...

Now back to the original topic...do you think the ruling accurately interpreted the constitution as it is written?


----------



## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Ok getting back on point; yes the RIC ruling is correct. The “guest” division at a state tournament is only for NFAA members shooting “out of state”. For instance: I am a member of X state, but I am in Y state and they are holding a tournament. I can go shoot it as a guest. It is not meant for non NFAA members to go shoot as a “guest”.


----------



## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I know I'm a little late to the party (not the first time) but since there are some current/former Directors here, I thought I'd ask a question.

There have been several references to the "rule" that the RIC was clarifying and that nothing can be done without changing said "rule". I get that. But where is the rule?? I've looked the Constitution and By-Laws up one side and down the other and have yet to find a rule that REQUIRES membership to participate in the Indoor or Outdoor Nationals. That is the "rule" that the RIC is using as the foundation of RIC 2010-6. But where is it?? If it's not written, it can't be used as the basis for an RIC ruling.

If it's there, I'll gladly step down and focus my attention on "fixing" it with my State Director. But if it is NOT in BLACK and WHITE, then the RIC ruling is unConstitutional and CAN'T be enforced.


----------

