# The Wedge



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I found this video on YouTube interesting. While this refers to recurve shooting I've found in my own experience that the closer I can mimic this form the steadier I am. Lately I've been shooting a resistance release and these principles have become more important for me. What say you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI&t=15s


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have watched the wedge videos before, it all sounds nice but in the end I just don't see the top shooters doing it in compound archery. The front shoulder is offset off to the side and their is a angle there where the shoulders are open and the front arm comes back to the bow at a angle. 

In the wedge video if you do it their way your shoulders are not square to the target, your shoulders are actually closed to the target and inline with your front arm so there is no angle at all. even when your shoulders are square with the target this causes the arm to leave the shoulder at a slight angle to go over to the bow but in the wedge your shoulders are overly closed in line with the front arm. 

to do this your head has to be looking over the back half of the shoulder which is very hard to do. Even with a square stance where you are looking straight out from the shoulder is a pain but with the overly closed shoulders of the wedge it is even worse.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Same here. In fact, I gave this (or as close to it as I could physically get) a long trial on my compounds a while back and ultimately found that it didn't work out. For one thing, I absolutely cannot twist my head around that far to the left (RH shooter) to get the shoulder line that far around. I think only the very young are that flexible . But I doubt even when I was in my 20's I would have been able to get my head that far around without shooting in a lot of pain... 

The other problem I had, which surprised me, was a general problem engaging my back muscles. Once I got that far around, the back muscles had no "leverage" and I had to pull through the shot with the deltoids or worse, the little muscles in the arms. 

I don't know why I had those problems; the neck makes sense (I'm old and stiff in general) but on the hyper-alignment either I was doing it wrong or I just didn't have the anatomy for that to work. In the last year or so, I've gone to more like the alignment criticized in the video, maybe even a little more outside and it works far better. But I don't have the alignment problems on the back end pointed out in the video (I use a wrist strap release and d-loop which adds at least 1" if not more to the overall forearm length over fingers on the string). And I'm able to engage the back muscles all the way through the shot; I can also hold more still than with any other alignment.

My impression is that this alignment is probably good for recurve mainly because of the gargantuan holding weight at full draw. And is best suited for young people . But for compound, probably a case-by-case individual trial-and-error type of thing to see if it works.

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Yes, but it still seems wise to eliminate as much lateral tension as possible from your form. While many if not most compound shooters have the bow shoulder at an angle, there’s a sweet spot there somewhere and my latest mission is to find it.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

There definitely is a sweet spot. You may not necessarily even feel it, but at least what I’ve found is that I need to be right on the edge of too long rather than too short. Even where I think it feels good doesn’t always give the best results. 

It may be the grip shape differences, but I shot my Podium 37 at 29” and my Fanatic 3.0 at 29.5”. I started with the TRX 38 at 29”, but I’m seeing the same thing I did with the Fanatic. At 29” I’m getting inconsistent rights and lefts. If I run long on the loop and let my fingers stretch, they go in the middle every time. I have 29.5” mods coming.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Paul, it works. I’d find a way to spend a few hours or a weekend with mr. wise if you really want to learn it. I spent a weekend with a level 4 and it’s not like the above two responses describe. 

There will be a lot of junior dream team types coming up that successfully employ the wedge or what is called “compound - NTS.”


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

The NTS calls this “The Barrel of the Gun” which extends from the bow side wrist to the draw side shoulder, and this unit should form a straight line. Chapter 4 NTS Recurve, Key Terms and Concepts. 

From Chapter 5 NTS Compound, “Similar to recurve, the ideal alignment of the shoulders should be in a straight line OR CLOSE TO A STRAIGHT LINE WITH THE BOW HAND WRIST ...”

Also from Chapter 4, “The National Training System is applicable to both recurve and compound bows, and can be adapted for athletes with physical disabilities.”

The barrel is set:
in step 5 of the recurve approach in NTS. 

in step 6 of the compound approach in NTS. 

Is this “different” than a lot of folks think? Yes. 

But so is the coil that tightens the abdominals by twisting the shoulders out of line with the hips. (In the NTS, the feet and hips stay aligned at appoximately 30 degrees open, but the abdomen is coiled to bring the sight picture into alignment.)

Note 1: the NTS Barrel of the Gun form does not match the form advocated by Pellerite in Chapter 6 of Idiot Proof Archery. 

Note 2: the NTS also does not match the form advocated by Wise in Chapter 2 of Core Archery. 

The second note is a little surprising considering that Larry Wise is listed as a primary author for the NTS coaching literature. The list of authors includes several Level 5 and Level 4 coaches.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Well, for me, that would mean finding at least a 33-34” draw bow.
I see the logic in minimizing the angles, but (as someone else mentioned) the arrow, and your line of sight are no longer parallel with your shoulders. This causes several problems, not the least of which is clearance.
Of more concern to me is the release arm alignment.
If the grip is in line with your shoulders, it would seem very hard to keep your release arm inline with the string... unless you use the “wrong” eye to look through the peep or something. If not, your head will be in the way.
Even if you did all that, the draw is still not in line with your shoulders, so you still have that torque.... now coupled with torque on the release.
I aim to keep my release arm inline with the string, with a nice straight relaxed wrist.
This doesn’t work lining up the bow arm with the shoulders.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

A year ago I went through a 6 week training routine. Early in the process the coach suggested I shorten my DL significantly which I did. While I did take away much from this training, I’ve been struggling since. I’ve recently been increasing my draw and finding a more steady hold. I’ve learned this lesson before (more than once). 
I’m also finding that using a tension activated release increases the need for better bone to bone alignment. Any collapse in the system hinders the release execution.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

EPLC said:


> I’m also finding that using a tension activated release increases the need for better bone to bone alignment. Any collapse in the system hinders the release execution.


My experience with the tension-style also. It absolutely will not tolerate creeping on the back end or any other collapsing of tension in the back muscles (if you execute with the delts or small muscles you're guaranteed to have a dodgy shot  ). That's one of the main benefits of a tension style; it forces you to stay strong and always keep increasing the tension during your execution. 

And yes that'll unquestionably also force you to find a more ideal alignment for that particular style of shot. Whether that ideal alignment is the "wedge" or not will be an individual finding (though beware if anyone says you *must* end up at the "wedge"). It might indeed turn out to be the right alignment for you, plus or minus the trial-and-error outcome....

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Due to the very "carved in Jell-O" nature of archery itself I've changed my signature.


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

The “S” in NTS Stands for “System.”

I would suggest caution about extracting a single element from a system and arguing whether that single element in isolation is a miracle cure for all issues. 

Not the least of those problems is communication. 

The NTS also says this about forming the Barrel. “Just as it’s important for archers to form the Barrel of the Gun, it’s important for coaches to be able to know what it looks like when the Barrel of the Gun is ‘broken’ or not formed properly. A common mistake is to roll the front shoulder forward in order to form the Barrel of the Gun. In fact, this breaks the bone-on-bone alignment by moving the ball of the arm bone (humerus) out of the shoulder socket, causing the archer to rely on rotator cuff muscles to keep the bow arm in place. This can cause several problems, including rotator cuff injury and additional form problems.”

From Ray Axford’s “Archery Anatomy” (or from the fount of all knowledge, the internet) one can easily learn that the rotator cuff muscles are quite small in comparison to the large muscle groups in the back. 

To really understand how the NTS uses the concept of the Barrel of the Gun while avoiding the issues of forearm slap with the string, one should also take a look at other key concepts. 

The first would be the angular draw. Rather than pulling the draw hand straight back from brace to the anchor references, the NTS uses coiling through the abdominals and draw arm rotation around the draw shoulder and spine. 

A second concept would be the “arrow line” which puts the draw side forearm in line with the arrow. 

In recurve, the draw side elbow is pulled inside the arrow line in Step 4, SET POSITION AND POSTURE Position. Note that at Set Up three lines cross in front of the archer: the target line goes from the archer to the target; the Barrel of the Gun points across the target line to one side of the target; while the arrow line points across the target line to the other. 

During drawing and loading (Step 6) the bow will pivot in the archer’s hand; in turn this will start to align the arrow line and the target line. Meanwhile, the Barrel of the Gun will still be pointing across the Target line. 

But ... what about the impending forearm slap. That was addressed earlier in the NTS Step 3. The NTS recommended grip rotates the bow side forearm to enable a relaxed hand placement on the bow grip with about a 45 degree slant, which moves the forearm out of the way and allows the bow to rest across the pivot point and pressure point, both of which lie on the thumb side of the “lifeline” in the palm. 

The issue in the thread is about the utility or not of an NTS concept, the Barrel of the Gun, for compound archery. 

The first caveat that NTS makes regarding the Barrel of the Gun is the EXACTNESS of that alignment. The NTS acknowledges that the shoulder line may not be quite be pointing at the bow wrist for some archers. “Similar to recurve, the ideal alignment of the shoulders should be in a straight line or close to a straight line with the bow hand wrist...”

The bow hand is set into the bow grip in the same fashion as for the recurve. Set the web between the thumb and index finger against the grip and roll the hand down to place the bow grip resting against the meaty part of the thumb. This relaxed resting place allows the bow to pivot as the draw cycle progresses. 

Like in recurve, in Step 5, SET-UP, the arrow line crosses the target line meaning that the arrow is pointed to the side, albeit just slightly. 

Also like in the recurve section, the draw is executed with a coiling of the abdominals and a rotation of the draw arm around the draw shoulder and spine. This action starts collapsing the angle between the arrow line and target line. 

The move to anchor further collapses that angle to zero forming a triangle comprised of the arrow line (which is parallel to the target line), the Barrel of the Gun, and the draw side upper arm. (Triangle ASSUMING the alignment of the Barrel of the Gun.)

Considering that one of the authors of the NTS training material is Larry Wise, it is not surprising to see the emphasis in Expansion and Aiming on maintaining the movement of the upper draw arm parallel to the shooting line (perpendicular to the target line). 

How could that be if that movement is an angular motion, rotation AROUND the spine using a contraction of the draw side back muscles?

A straight line is defined by two points, no matter how close together or far apart they are. 

A straight line is said to be tangent to a curve if the straight line only touches that curve at a single point. 

A line that crosses the curve at two points creates a chord line. 

If that chord line is reduced to zero, then the line is tangent to the curve again. But the shortest possible chord line could reasonably be called a parallel line to the tangent line. 

So what, who cares? Larry Wise seems to care, and the NTS seems to care because that concept describes the minuscule movement of the upper draw arm in rotation around the spine that creates the last little bit of rotation of the handle of a hinge release moving the sear just enough to allow the hook to release the bow string. 

But back to the development of the Wedge, both the NTS and Larry Wise acknowledge that the Barrel of the Gun may not be perfectly aligned. Both acknowledge the system can be adapted for the archer’s physical limitations. 

Also, in Core Archery, Larry Wise argues to shoot from the valley. But, the NTS does not appear to address that issue. There is no valley for a recurve, the draw weight just stack. With some lower let-off compounds with draw stops, there is also no valley.

Finally, consider the goal of the NTS to maximize the use of bone structure and large muscle groups over smaller muscles and soft tissue. Suspending the bow from the draw elbow (along the arrow line) while preventing the bow from collapsing to the torso by means of bone-on-bone form (Barrel of the Gun) becomes a very convenient way to support heavily loaded stabilizers without loading up the bow shoulder rotator cuffs.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

How about a video. A picture is worth 1000 words.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Cole Zeug, 2018 Youth Compound Las Vegas Champ, 2018 NFAA Indoor Freestyle Youth Champ

[video]https://www.facebook.com/archerlindab/videos/1876640959234868/[/video]

This has been posted here before under the same subject. Linda and Larry work together to refine and teach this method.

As stated above, the draw is a coiling movement and the shot break is a rotation about the draw shoulder (figurative) and not a linear pull.
Once one figures out how to draw and rotate the torso without moving the hips and not pushing out the bow shoulder, the concept becomes easy to perform.

Pretty soon though, the kinesiology types will chime in, disagree with NTS and say there is a better way without defining the better way...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4973825

Or just type this in google: "archerytalk: NTS lcaillo"


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Thanks for the photos. I’m going to have to lengthen my DL to get there.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Rick! said:


> Cole Zeug, 2018 Youth Compound Las Vegas Champ, 2018 NFAA Indoor Freestyle Youth Champ
> 
> [video]https://www.facebook.com/archerlindab/videos/1876640959234868/[/video]
> 
> ...


Just "other" ways. As far as definitions go just read Wise, Wunderle, talk to Strickland, Ryals, etc

Should I post videos of their protege's?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Rick! said:


> Cole Zeug, 2018 Youth Compound Las Vegas Champ, 2018 NFAA Indoor Freestyle Youth Champ
> 
> [video]https://www.facebook.com/archerlindab/videos/1876640959234868/[/video]
> 
> ...


Interesting that Larry doesn't seem to be practicing the wedge himself. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lBK2ahoUP8


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Want to fry your brain? Take a still frame of the overhead of the kid at full draw, and connect your dots.... quite interesting


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> Just "other" ways. As far as definitions go just read Wise, Wunderle, talk to Strickland, Ryals, etc
> 
> Should I post videos of their protege's?


Please do, after all it is “archers helping archers” here. If one person is able to pick up a positive nugget, then the sharing pays off.



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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Braden Gellentien https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaWO-Bsx5ns

Chance Beauboeuf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_o7a__jzbw

Couple of the lesser known griv kids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_BW2JkUOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD0NBwXLG-Q (beautiful ain't it) Really, the next generation of Pros are gonna have to deal with all of Griv's kids.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Mahly said:


> Want to fry your brain? Take a still frame of the overhead of the kid at full draw, and connect your dots.... quite interesting


A little hard to tell but it looks like he's also a little outside the classical Wedge alignment - more like figure A in post #25 in:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4973825

But who cares - I'd love to have a form even 1/4 that good (at best, I'm in between figure A and figure C) .

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

One thing that is becoming obvious is the need to be directly behind the arrow. Thanks to World Archery and YouTube i’ve watched countless videos of the worlds best compound shooters. I can’t think of one that I’ve watched that truly incorporates the wedge. What I do notice is “most” of these top shooters have their bow side shoulder open to some degree. That said; they also have their release side directly behind the draw force of the arrow path. 
Of course there are exceptions, but those are not the norm.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

lees said:


> A little hard to tell but it looks like he's also a little outside the classical Wedge alignment - more like figure A in post #25 in:
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4973825
> 
> ...


Here’s the diagram that Reverend posted. Great example! I believe this is why I’ve never been been able to settle in to a DL. As I increase or decrease my DL my shoulders just close more or open more to accommodate whatever DL I’m using at the time. I also can be somewhere between A and C.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

EPLC said:


> Here’s the diagram that Reverend posted. Great example! I believe this is why I’ve never been been able to settle in to a DL. As I increase or decrease my DL my shoulders just close more or open more to accommodate whatever DL I’m using at the time. I also can be somewhere between A and C.


I don't know if this helps, but to briefly describe my trip back and forth between alignments B and C: I initially tried to get into alignment B the first time I heard about the Wedge (thinking it would be the best a-priori so let's try it). My draw length went to the 29.5" setting on the PSE. I struggled with it with the following symptoms: increasingly severe pain in the neck, a rapid side-to-side wiggle of the bow as I pulled through the shot and couldn't engage the back muscles fully especially right at the end as I was pulling into the back wall. 

Long story short, I worked on the wiggle first by going back to my 10" stab and pin sight. That combo that gives the wiggle the worst, so I went to that to monitor my progress in trying to fix it. I started moving my bow shoulder to the outside in small increments shortening the DL on the bow to get the wall in the right place (I'm a "puller" style). Kept going over a period of a couple weeks until the wiggle went away. It finally went away at the 28" setting my PSE, when I finally found I had enough "margin" in the back muscles to pull all the way through the shot and keep the small muscles in the bow arm relaxed. That's where it's been ever since and the 10" stab/recurve pin is still what I shoot today.

I should mention that i can force the Wedge at my current drawlength, but I have to really scrunch up to do it and the breaking-my-neck and back-muscles-too-stretched-out problem returns. So I stick to my in between A and C alignment, since I seem to shoot the best that way. Biomechanically, I figure I compensate for the larger angle at the shoulder with the back muscles, and ironically, I figure that helps keep them under load and the small muscles not. That's just a WAG, of course, who knows what all else I could be doing wrong.

I'm also old, have had my spine cut into by doctors and have the flexibility of an oak 2x4. That also dictates where I've ended up.

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Here are 3 shots of me at 27” 28” and 28.5. The shorter I go the closer to a “C” I become. I have no clue where I’ll end up but I’m thinking longer is better. And I’m 72, not that it matters.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

If my draw length is too short I cannot get in behind the bow and be strong on the release.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I went to a GRIV workshop and he adjusted me from a "C" to an "A." 
I asked him about the shoulder alignment of "B" but he didn't seem to think it was that important right now. 

One challenge with the Wedge is the position of your feet and waist / hip. Since your hips are over your feet (some prefer aligned towards target), you are really coiling your midsection to get there. That's quite uncomfortable.

I think too, that if you look at the top shooters, you'll see them all incorporating different positions. Interestingly enough, not too many are using a true wedge. Recurve shooters yes, compound not so much...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Reverend said:


> I went to a GRIV workshop and he adjusted me from a "C" to an "A."
> I asked him about the shoulder alignment of "B" but he didn't seem to think it was that important right now.
> 
> One challenge with the Wedge is the position of your feet and waist / hip. Since your hips are over your feet (some prefer aligned towards target), you are really coiling your midsection to get there. That's quite uncomfortable.
> ...


What was addressed during your adjustment? Was you DL a consideration?


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

EPLC said:


> What was addressed during your adjustment? Was you DL a consideration?


He said I looked scrunched up and wanted to see a bit more expansion. He added that I should see my sight picture get steadier once I get used to it. The change increased my DL more than 1 inch!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Braden pics. I guess it's not so bad being a "C"...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Note the "C" position.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Two more "C"'s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9p9_AqGaxw&t=192s

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I'd go out on a limb and say that the shootoff lines and final brackets are usually dominated by C's, there's a few B's (Broadwater, Hansen), I can't think of any A's.

I have noticed though that more women seem to be at, or close to, the B.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I did purchase “Archery”. I’m sure it’s a good read.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I’ve read that book and I don’t recall it addressing this... I may have to browse through it again.

On a different note, I think it may not be that easy to categorize certain pros as being A’s B’s or C’s without top or back views. What do you think?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Reverend said:


> I’ve read that book and I don’t recall it addressing this... I may have to browse through it again.
> 
> On a different note, I think it may not be that easy to categorize certain pros as being A’s B’s or C’s without top or back views. What do you think?


It's easy enough seeing their shoulder orientation (A/B to C) with a reasonable angle; telling an A to a B needs a good angle from behind, overhead, or front view. Paying attention to the glenoid-humeral angle from behind the line makes it even more evident.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

EPLC said:


> I did purchase “Archery”. I’m sure it’s a good read.


After browsing through this volume again, it only refers to the "wedge" position (though it does not call it the wedge) in the recurve section; pg. 46, 59-60.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> I'd go out on a limb and say that the shootoff lines and final brackets are usually dominated by C's, there's a few B's (Broadwater, Hansen), I can't think of any A's.
> 
> I have noticed though that more women seem to be at, or close to, the B.


I would say the several times I've seen Cassidy C shoot at our shop and during league, she's closer to a C. But yes I think you're right that many women may prefer a more inside-the-bow alignment... Maybe we can preliminarily conclude that the Wedge isn't necessarily applicable to compound form? Though of course it can be if it works well for the shooter...
That's kind of what I've been thinking all along, but.... 

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Reverend said:


> After browsing through this volume again, it only refers to the "wedge" position (though it does not call it the wedge) in the recurve section; pg. 46, 59-60.


Additionally, in the compound section they do not promote the wedge at all. In fact they promote the open stance “C” position. Being behind and in line with the arrow is the take I get from this. Like it says in my signature, after score everything in archery is subjective


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Reverend said:


> After browsing through this volume again, it only refers to the "wedge" position (though it does not call it the wedge) in the recurve section; pg. 46, 59-60.


Figure 7-16 might spur comment from the crowd as for what "letter" form the compound archer employs.



lees said:


> I would say the several times I've seen Cassidy C shoot at our shop and during league, she's closer to a C. But yes I think you're right that many women may prefer a more inside-the-bow alignment... *Maybe we can preliminarily conclude that the Wedge isn't necessarily applicable to compound form?* Though of course it can be if it works well for the shooter...
> That's kind of what I've been thinking all along, but....
> 
> lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

EPLC said:


> Additionally, in the compound section they do not promote the wedge at all. In fact they promote the open stance “C” position. Being behind and in line with the arrow is the take I get from this. Like it says in my signature, after score everything in archery is subjective


Yep, that'd be my take as well. That's one of the really good things about the compound, IMO, is that it's more accommodating of different forms, so it doesn't dictate as narrow of a range of variation. But having looked at more forms recently (partly because of this thread), I am quite interested to see what I used to think was too-outside of an alignment actually being common. And among the elite in the sport also. 

So I now don't feel quite as bad as being an A/C hybrid myself .

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

borrowing a friends Core Archery DVD for the weekend. 

Guess which one Larry said is “Compound” position and which one was referred to as “Recurve” position. 


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> borrowing a friends Core Archery DVD for the weekend.
> 
> Guess which one Larry said is “Compound” position and which one was referred to as “Recurve” position.
> 
> ...


Guess I need to get the DVD finally....

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

And here’s Larry not using/teaching the wedge.
https://youtu.be/7lBK2ahoUP8


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Reverend said:


> One challenge with the Wedge is the position of your feet and waist / hip. Since your hips are over your feet (some prefer aligned towards target), you are really coiling your midsection to get there. That's quite uncomfortable.


This was one of my problems too. I have a non-standard lower spine (decades of herniated disks and finally surgery to correct it) and even as an A/C hybrid I have to shoot with a fully closed stance (right foot actually behind the line of the left). 

I can see the benefit tho; if you can handle it it really does make your core very firm.... 

But I also know even over on the recurve side, the NTS "coil" is sometimes criticized for being overly difficult for certain shooters. And there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the Wedge as always being the right alignment even for recurve.....

lee.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

lees said:


> This was one of my problems too. I have a non-standard lower spine (decades of herniated disks and finally surgery to correct it) and even as an A/C hybrid I have to shoot with a fully closed stance (right foot actually behind the line of the left).
> 
> I can see the benefit tho; if you can handle it it really does make your core very firm....
> 
> ...



I'm no one to comment, especially arguing against the likes of Larry Wise, Kisik Lee and others, but I question if that coiling is a truly repeatable function. I would think your hip position could change from shot to shot. Isn't this counter-productive in a discipline where precise repeatability is everything?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Reverend said:


> I'm no one to comment, especially arguing against the likes of Larry Wise, Kisik Lee and others, but I question if that coiling is a truly repeatable function. I would think your hip position could change from shot to shot. Isn't this counter-productive in a discipline where precise repeatability is everything?


I certainly couldn't repeat it, but of course that doesn't mean nobody can repeat it... Though, from what I've heard about it down in the F.I.T.A forum, it does appear to be a contentious point as being a pretty athletic thing to have to learn how to do. Though for younger, stronger shooters maybe not? 

I get repeatability in my shot by being as relaxed as possible and under the least tension with the least number of muscles involved as possible. Yeah that's pretty vague, , I know. But I'm also too old and not good enough of a shot to be saved by a good coach, so I've just continued on with teaching myself wherever possible and trying to do what's the most comfortable for me. So I can't really advocate one way or the other except for vacuous statements like just learn what's best for you . 

Still, a really interesting topic, IMO....

lee.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I just performed a little test. With my back flat against a wall and looking in a mirror I tried to get into positions “B” and then “C”. It just isn’t going to happen. My 72 year old body just isn’t capable of achieving either of these positions, let alone support a bow and actually fire it. I’m just going to accept my “A” type form and work on being directly and consistently behind the arrow.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Reverend said:


> I'm no one to comment, especially arguing against the likes of Larry Wise, Kisik Lee and others, but I question if that coiling is a truly repeatable function. I would think your hip position could change from shot to shot. Isn't this counter-productive in a discipline where precise repeatability is everything?


You set up with your stance pointing between the shortstop and third base, rotate hips backward with a little yoga move to engage buttocks and hips get locked in. 
(you'll feel a lot more "planted" as this little move weights the balls of your feet very well) 
The bow gets pointed a bit above the target and drawn with a high right forearm rotating down into full draw position which sets up the back half very well.
Your torso rotates above your hips and just stays there. You're not twisting a spring and trying to hold it cocked. 
It's flesh and some muscle and a backbone with little flexy things between each vertebrae (for most) and the small rotation is easily accommodated.
On the front end, the bow sits on your lat and on the back end it is easy to finish with "getting in your back." 
It is just as repeatable as any other technique that gets you to full draw with your skeleton properly loaded.
It's not a one weekend learned skill. It's taken months (for me) to figure out what variances from the "perfect form" are necessary to get comfortable and work back into a steady hold. 
What don't I like about it? I don't like the extra 2-3 seconds it takes to settle into the middle from above the target. I can see potentially causing issues on the 35ft walkup with a 6X lens. 
I also am still trying to calm down my traps as some tension remains even after a partial exhale.

Like everything else in archery, whatever makes you comfortable and stable and calm and repeats is all that is needed to perform at an above average level.

It's a high tech stick with some pulleys and some strings and everyone is trying to shove an arrow down the middle the best they can. 
Some would say there are a million ways to do it, I beg to differ...


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Rick! said:


> You set up with your stance pointing between the shortstop and third base, rotate hips backward with a little yoga move to engage buttocks and hips get locked in.
> (you'll feel a lot more "planted" as this little move weights the balls of your feet very well)
> The bow gets pointed a bit above the target and drawn with a high right forearm rotating down into full draw position which sets up the back half very well.
> Your torso rotates above your hips and just stays there. You're not twisting a spring and trying to hold it cocked.
> ...


:thumbs_up

Have you watched Core Archery? Specifically the L-R stance performance test. I've done the eyes closed and see which way you drift thing many times and playing with stance angle changes, but never a specific test to figure out which one scored better. I always just did it as a "comfort" and stability thing...stance too closed and I'd drift right, stance too open and I'd likely drift left on longer than normal holds. 

I was not engaging the coil though and standing in the kitchen and doing a mock version I'm sure I was just moving my feet and allowing my hips to line up with the shoulders. 

As someone that is undergoing the "coil transformation" I wonder if you'd be willing to run the performance test and if the coil would negate the feet's position even more; which would certainly be beneficial to all. 

Lastly, I wonder if it's a matter of an engaged core. The coil kind of forces that core engagement; whereas the rest of us should engage the core, but few do.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Yeah, I've got the vid but, to me, it's not as good as the book. (hmmm, where have I heard that before...

Last night I did the eyes closed thing with my bhfs rig. 

Stance not quite open enough and I drifted a bit right and low.

Opened my stance up a tad more and it was a toss up as to what side of the white I was in after a few seconds, while still drifting a bit low.
It was markedly more stable down the center after I opened up a little more. This is an issue I have to practice a lot - not open enough and I don't load my back enough on the draw side
to make it easy to break the shot. Too open and my hold gets a little loopy but the shot breaks much easier.

One's draw length needs to be spot on to do these types of tests, in my opinion. 
I used to do this exercise more, especially after diving into Pro Active Archery a while back but now not so much.
I just observe my hold and POI pattern and let that tell me if I need to open or close a little, soften my hands, or just move the sight.

On the other hand, this stuff seems to only work well when two tablespoons of confidence are added...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Ah, confidence... the chicken or the egg factor.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Have you watched Core Archery? Specifically the L-R stance performance test. *I've done the eyes closed *and see which way you drift thing many times and playing with stance angle changes, but never a specific test to figure out which one scored better. I always just did it as a "comfort" and stability thing...stance too closed and I'd drift right, stance too open and I'd likely drift left on longer than normal holds.
> 
> ...


Wish I could find field14's passage of eyes closed. He could give place and the man he lost his butt to. Tom lost a saw buck and then lost another because he couldn't believe it could be done. What was done? 5 shots on the 5 spot and all 5s and some Xs, twice. This wound me up. This was before diabetes nearly had me go blind and then double surgery to my bow arm. I was shooting a 2010 Martin Shadowcat at the time. Bow fitted to a "T" and practiced endless every day to find what gave the best. I could set my feet just so to the line exactly every time. I then started closing my eyes and surprise, hitting. I kept at it. I got to getting 5 fives and healthy amount of Xs (4 Xs my best). I got good enough I won bets though my bets were reserved to diet Coke or diet Pepsi. I actually shot a X from 30 yards with my eyes closed, but just one shot for the bet and the lights were turned off to make sure I couldn't see the target. Best tasting diet Coke ever.

I don't feel like I'm on the road to recovery. Back pain started last summer and got worse. Okay, I've been around the block with doctors, surgeons and therapists. I'm walking. To stand at full draw...Lord. Doctor and therapists say shooting my bow shouldn't effect my lower back. I'm here to tell it doesn't take a lot aggravate back pain. As for the one Pain Management Quack, I wish I had jacked his jaw. 

So I'm learning to shoot all over again. Learning to draw, learning to stand and stand just so. And then learning to fire has been something else. Back doesn't work right nothing goes right. I'm making progress. Started with shooting sitting in a chair. *Got twisted* just right and things began to come together, at least stay in the bull's eye. I started with 2 shots because I couldn't go 3 shots. Worked my way up to 4 shots and holding there. I'm *standing on my own two feet that gives the same twist sitting in the chair* and finding the X ring once more (not all the time). Still, 4 shots and sometimes 3 shots and I'm done. I have to sit to let the tension leave my back. No, dropping draw weight didn't help. When at full draw the tension builds and builds no matter if using a kid's 15 pound bow.

Feet set just so, twisted just so? I've 16 ounces on the back bar and bar swung out more than I had and the bubble is still to the left. 

Shooting with my eyes closed and drilling the bull's eye now seems like forever ago.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Rick! said:


> Yeah, I've got the vid but, to me, it's not as good as the book. (hmmm, where have I heard that before...
> 
> Last night I did the eyes closed thing with my bhfs rig.
> 
> ...


I've had the book for a very long time...but just recently borrowed the video. I agree. 

Specifically though, I'm still left wondering if Larry's L-R performance test would be applicable to the coil (and stance).


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> ...Feet set just so, twisted just so? I've 16 ounces on the back bar and bar swung out more than I had and the bubble is still to the left...


Bubble left...keep your bow shoulder down.

Back problems may be causing some problems on that side by being unable to engage the lat.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> Bubble left...keep your bow shoulder down.
> 
> Back problems may be causing some problems on that side by being unable to engage the lat.


Bow shoulder seems to be down and it's the right side lats burning right at the bottom of ribs. I'd think it should be the left lats doing any straining. Everything changes when you're hurting. I've changed my grip perhaps because I'm twisted a bit. 

Basically, the pressure builds and drives right down in the tail bone. 

Understand, my spasms were so bad I'd arch right out of a wheel chair, down through my back and left leg. Yep, in a wheel chair for a couple of days. Still have a buzzing in my left foot. In the rattle tube (MRI) I was sort of twisted and back not down, sort of arched. Taking some med my doctor says is the strongest he'll give me. About like Bayer Baby aspirin I think. 
Whatever the med, I took 3 Bayer Extra Strength Back and body aspirin along with the med and went to a Indoor 3D. While watching I fell asleep. I don't remember driving home. Crashed until noon the next day. So no more that stuff.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Where's all you wedgies at?

Let's talk about Brady Ellison laying down big scores with the wedge.


sorry to hear of your ills Sonny.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> Bubble left...keep your bow shoulder down.
> 
> Back problems may be causing some problems on that side by being unable to engage the lat.


Shot Indoors. No coat, warmer and the bubble was on the right. So took some weights off.

Spring Storm. Snow, sleet, hail and wind enough to blow truck off the highway in front of me. One of those small 4X4 SUVs left the road and so muddy it couldn't make it back across the ditch it slid through. And my little front wheel drive Olds just stayed the road like a trooper. 1994 and I finally rolled over 50,000 miles. Sat in the garage forever while I drove my trucks.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Brady Ellison?
I saw that he recently competed in Arizona in the compound division, but I haven't seen any video. Did he continue using the wedge?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Reverend said:


> Brady Ellison?
> I saw that he recently competed in Arizona in the compound division, but I haven't seen any video. Did he continue using the wedge?


There’s a video on Brady and Toja’s Facebook page. 

He makes it look good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

yep, and just eyeballing it, it looks like his bow shoulder has the kind of typical outward turn with a little more angle... i.e. doesn't look like the Wedge to me and a more typical compound form? 
Sure hope the fingers issues he described aren't becoming a chronic problem for him on recurve though. There's nothing more depressing than a chronic, possibly career ending injury or problem. An issue I'm way too familiar with....

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)




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