# Hoyt Satori Cast?



## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

I am a lifelong bowhunter and 3D shooter since the early 80’s, who has gotten busy the last three years and not picked up a bow. My young boys asked me for some bows and I got them a couple cheap longbows. Then I decided instead of using my Compound to shoot with them I would get a cheap recurve. I discovered the ILF thing and ordered up an inexpensive example knowing zero about it. It turned out to be what is called a TBow. It is the exact same as a 19”Hoyt Satori riser as I soon discovered. Something tells me that Hoyt may be having their risers made in China and now China is bootlegging them and we now discover why they don’t give any details about the riser build. I am guessing they are cast in China, which is no big deal but shocking for a guy who started shooting Hoyt prior to Chuck Adams achieving the Super Slam. Weird as I thought all their bows were strict USA made products. All their inexpensive lines are probably Chinese, like everything nowadays. The Tbow is pretty damn good though even considering the price.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Its called ripping off intellectual property rights. Hoyt does all of the R&D....and these folks just rip them off.

I've had this happen to buddies building BH's and paintball guns in China....China ripped them off .....sometimes on the same assembly line. 

The media characterizes this "Trade War" differently.....but its about Intellectual property and fairness and thats why we want a president that isn't afraid to stand up for us unlike the last many presidents that have kicked the can down the road ignoring what China is doing. Hey, I'm not a fan of many of Trumps comments in the media...but he absolutely has our backs and has made the tough decisions even under fire. 

Ask yourself what would a Warren, Bernie or Biden do? Ha! Kiss China's posterior for sure!
They are proven can kickers....

Now to your purchase....sounds a bit harsh...but if there was no market for knock offs.....


...

....


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Beendare said:


> Its called ripping off intellectual property rights. Hoyt does all of the R&D....and these folks just rip them off.
> 
> I've had this happen to buddies building BH's and paintball guns in China....China ripped them off .....sometimes on the same assembly line.
> 
> ...


Really? Was there a patent infringed upon?


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

Beendare said:


> Its called ripping off intellectual property rights. Hoyt does all of the R&D....and these folks just rip them off.
> 
> I've had this happen to buddies building BH's and paintball guns in China....China ripped them off .....sometimes on the same assembly line.
> 
> ...


I agree with you and I have no problem with the way Trump talks, or your comment about the market for knockoffs. I wouldn’t pay $700-$800 for a Satori but I would pay $187 for this, so I did. I never heard of a Satori until I went to get some feathered arrows at the Hoyt dealer, but I still would have bought it.


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## boofhead (Jul 15, 2007)

Absolutely love my "tbow" satori. I have read a post somewhere on here when i was looking at getting mine, the poster put up some hoyt marketing information that stated that all hoyt bows are "assembled in the usa". Thats quite a bit different than being actually made in the usa as the poster was trying to say and that china ripped it off. Bottom line, like many other products in this world we live in today, china makes them and they are just rebranded with a different sticker.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

A rumor started a few years back that Hoyt was outsourcing their risers and claiming the Excel was cast. A Hoyt rep came on and said ALL Hoyt risers were made in house here in the USA and ALL were CNC'd from a solid billet.


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## Greenjoytj (Aug 10, 2013)

I would like to see a “Made in China” or USA label moulded on the bow riser.

Check this bow out, it looks like Hoyt Buffalo knock off. This riser has the paralever/Formula limb mounting system, which I like better than the ILF system.
https://www.amazon.ca/DDMARK-Archer...97X13VDHGRJ&psc=1&refRID=9VS8YMP8B97X13VDHGRJ


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

Did you consider that perhaps it is made "under license" with the full blessings of Hoyt? That would not be public knowledge and OK. I've had several Subaru cars over the years. One made in Japan, one made in Indiana USA, one made in Mexico and another from Canada. NO difference. I still have the one from Fuji Heavy Industries which makes Subaru in Japan. Great car. Don't get in a huff because your bow is not made in the USA and you think they are ripping off an American company. They may be legitimate. Your ultimate decision was to buy the bow because it met your price point and you are satisfied with the quality.


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## Toxalot (Nov 17, 2019)

I doubt that Hoyt has any copyright for riser design since every bow made nowadays is a copy of something already made. The term 'knock-off' is usually not a thing except a derogatory reaction to the same thing that is cheaper. I like cheaper, especially when it wors just as well and the average wage-earner can afford it.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

When American companies outsource manufacturing jobs to China, they order a certain quantity for production. But a manufacturer usually attempts to produce slightly more than the ordered quantity to give room for random variation in quality. For example, an American bike company places a job order for 10,000 bike frames, but the Chinese manufacturer will try to produce 10,100 bike frames on that production run and set aside the top 10,000 frames meeting the quality standard.

Of the 100 excess produce, there could be 70 or so that are of good quality. The manufacturer will then try to sell those in bulk to any taker, but will not sell them under the original brand. 

These copies of American products are not the same as those we call "rip off" which are imitations of the original products.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

lameduck said:


> When American companies outsource manufacturing jobs to China, they order a certain quantity for production. But a manufacturer usually attempts to produce slightly more than the ordered quantity to give room for random variation in quality. For example, an American bike company places a job order for 10,000 bike frames, but the Chinese manufacturer will try to produce 10,100 bike frames on that production run and set aside the top 10,000 frames meeting the quality standard.
> 
> Of the 100 excess produce, there could be 70 or so that are of good quality. The manufacturer will then try to sell those in bulk to any taker, but will not sell them under the original brand.
> 
> These copies of American products are not the same as those we call "rip off" which are imitations of the original products.


Exactly^...and thats exactly what happened to 2 buddies that had patented products manufactured in China....I call that being ripped off when they compete with the original product at 1/2 the price. Easy as they have ZERO development costs. 

Now it seems some of you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. We want good paying jobs...but then we buy cheap knock off stuff? Of course you have never spent the time and money to develop something...then had it stolen...yep stolen. No doubt there is some blind hatred and politics going on here for a president that actually has our countries best interests in mind when he made the tough decision to negotiate a fair deal with China. Theres not one other candidate for president that would have our back on this. Heck Biden negotiates with China and magically his son has a multi million dollar investment deal...but the US comes away with nothing but the 'Same old'. 

It happens every day in China....we make a movie spending $300 million to make...and a week later there are DVD's selling in China for a buck each. How is that or this bow not ripping off intellectual property rights?


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

China straight up rips off designs, period. I have no problem with the rest of the world putting the screws to them for this. My post was not really regarding what China is doing but what Hoyt is doing, or not doing in this case. We all know that Hoyt’s previous top end hunting recurves were machined aluminum. We also now know that the Satori is exactly like this Tbow and that the Tbow is cast. That is a dead giveaway that the Satori is cast as well. The Buffalo was a much sleeker design and Hoyt clearly had to beef up the Satori for some reason. Now, if I had spent the big bucks on a Satori and then found out it was cast, I would be all kinds of pissed off. They clearly and cleverly neglected to include that little detail. On a lesser note, not being made in house is not as big a deal as long as the price matches the quality, but I would still like to know about it. When Hoyt first came out with their Charger compound, it was the first cast riser bow that looked very similar to a machined billet bow and I am guessing that it was a newer technique which casts and then machines the casting. It too may indeed have been made in China. The real disappointment is that Satori buyers didn’t have the benefit of this knowledge prior to spending prices that weren’t all that different from the machined billet, made by Hoyt predecessors!


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Lots of assumptions and presumptions in that post. I'd suggest you know the facts prior to making accusations.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Lots of assumptions and presumptions in that post. I'd suggest you know the facts prior to making accusations.


Hoyt is free to clear this whole thing up anytime they want. If what I am saying is all that damning or better yet, untrue, then I will apologize after they explicitly show otherwise. It is a forum and I have left some room for doubt in my posts. I am also betting that I have shot enough Hoyt bows since 1984 to have the luxury of questioning them when I see something fishy.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

I got to handle the Tbow riser. I noticed some imperfections in the casting where it surrounds the heads of the tiller bolts. Other than that, it seemed pretty decent.

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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Its most probable that 

1 The riser isnt patented.
2 A Chinese company simply made the closest and most affordable copy of it they could. 
3 Nothing illegal was done.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

The satori is machined.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Bottom line... you got a cheap cast Chinese riser


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

From what I've seen the Tbow isn't a clone, or copy, it IS the Satori riser. Makes you really wonder what Hoyt is up to. The resemblance is too exact for there not to be some form of manufacturing for Hoyt over there. There is NO DISTINGUISHABLE differences between the two. It's a great price for a Chinese riser that will not disappoint you. I will probably pick one up myself here soon. I know a few guys that actually sold their Satori's because the Tbow was better quality than the Hoyt!


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## Ghostbaba (Jan 19, 2020)

jewalker7842 said:


> From what I've seen the Tbow isn't a clone, or copy, it IS the Satori riser. Makes you really wonder what Hoyt is up to. The resemblance is too exact for there not to be some form of manufacturing for Hoyt over there. There is NO DISTINGUISHABLE differences between the two. It's a great price for a Chinese riser that will not disappoint you. I will probably pick one up myself here soon. I know a few guys that actually sold their Satori's because the Tbow was better quality than the Hoyt!


Having traveled to China a decent amount, I know that sometimes in the clothing industry, they will create things in the same factory to the same specs and sell them under their own label (sometimes falling in a legal grey area). It could also be, as you might suggest, a slightly cheaper made (in ways that are not clear) sub brand. It's like what happened at outlet malls, where you used to buy last years models from folks like adidas, then they realized, they could make cheaper versions, use the same brand and sell them in outlets at lower prices. I'd be curious to know, and curious for someone to drop the cash to buy both and do an actual side by side comparison!


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> The satori is machined.


Machined from a casting and not a billet. Huge difference.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> Bottom line... you got a cheap cast Chinese riser


Exactly The point. I knew I was getting a cheap cast riser up front and the price reflected that.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

jewalker7842 said:


> From what I've seen the Tbow isn't a clone, or copy, it IS the Satori riser. Makes you really wonder what Hoyt is up to. The resemblance is too exact for there not to be some form of manufacturing for Hoyt over there. There is NO DISTINGUISHABLE differences between the two. It's a great price for a Chinese riser that will not disappoint you. I will probably pick one up myself here soon. I know a few guys that actually sold their Satori's because the Tbow was better quality than the Hoyt!


So far, I have seen...


The chinese TBow looks just like a Hoyt Satori. Therefore...
The Hoyt Satori must be made in China, therefore...
The TBow is in fact the Hoyt Satori... so...
The TBow is actually better than the Hoyt Satori...

This sounds kind of like, "There are clouds on Venus, therefore.... There are dinosaurs on Venus."

It could all be true. But, before I started saying it was true, I think I might want some evidence, because it could also be true that somebody in China got a real Hoyt Satori and scanned in the dimensions and copied the design. They have technology now you know.

There are lots of reasons not to buy something made in China, but sometimes it's almost impossible not to.

I'm personally inclined against buying knock offs. If there is R&D involved, and you don't pay for it, that's a good way to have the R&D go away, as well as effectively stealing by buying stolen goods, in a sense. 

It is possible to get very good manufacturing in China. I met a guy who made quite a business in the electronics industry, and said that he could get great manufacturing in China, but you had to have your own QA engineer, who worked for you, not the factory, overseeing factory operations. Chinese manufacturers, apart from the theft of intellectual property, have a habit of doing as little as they can get away with, once they feel that they can, to maximize their own profits. If there is no leverage on quality control, roll your dice. 

If a large company outsources to China, and quality suffers, they know who they're dealing with, and they can leverage future purchases or payment to keep quality up. If an individual buys something from a company in China that lives on Ebay, and hasn't invested in establishing a long-term reputation that they care about, the manufacturer can milk their money so long as sales continue, and when people decide it's crap, simply change their name and sell different crap, or the same crap at something different. 

You might do quite well buying a Chinese copy, or you might have the thing snap at full draw one day, lose an eye, and guess who you can sue? Is that likely? Probably not. But the fact that you _can't_ sue anyone for injury related to a defective product is a _great_ incentive for Chinese manufacturers to cut corners when you're not looking, and who's actually looking? Anybody X-rayed a hundred samples to ensure there aren't voids in the cast? I'd guess probably not.

Again, Chinese manufacturers certainly _can_ make top notch products, if they have sufficient motivation. In some things, particularly when they own the brand name (and not for temporary convenience, but as a long-term investment, they do make consistently good products.

I don't mean to sound all down on it. I don't blame the original poster. He wanted a cheap bow, found a cheap bow, bought a cheap bow, and it looks like he bought a copy of a Hoyt Satori. Maybe it is actually the same as a Hoyt Satori. Maybe it isn't. I really don't know.


Anyway, that's all. Thanks for listening.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Yeah....and don't forget this one.... a burglar broke in and robbed the house. So... what's the home owner up to?

Makes perfect sense, huh?


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## Alistair (Jan 14, 2016)

My mate has a Tbow. It looks okay and handles fine but I know 2 of the screws stripped as soon as he pointed an Allen key in their direction. I don't have a Satori but did have a Tiburon a couple of years ago and no such issues with that. The hardware on that Tib was built to last.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

I just think it is suspicious that Hoyt does not make some sort of a statement. My guess is they probably do not want to give any attention to the Tbow. If Hoyt came out and said it is a piece of junk knockoff clone, I do think it would discourage most people from buying it. Or maybe it really is the same riser from the same factory and they don't want to bring that to light either. I personally wonder if someone on the inside at Hoyt sold the 19" Satori drawing file to the Chinese. I also wondered that about the Buffalo riser.

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## Buran (Nov 26, 2018)

jewalker7842 said:


> From what I've seen the Tbow isn't a clone, or copy, it IS the Satori riser. Makes you really wonder what Hoyt is up to. The resemblance is too exact for there not to be some form of manufacturing for Hoyt over there. There is NO DISTINGUISHABLE differences between the two. It's a great price for a Chinese riser that will not disappoint you. I will probably pick one up myself here soon. I know a few guys that actually sold their Satori's because the Tbow was better quality than the Hoyt!


 I have a TBOW, was my first ILF and I think is a decent starting bow. But I don't think is the same as the Satori and don't think that the Satori are made utside the US or the quality of both are the same (I saw a true Satori in a 3D tournament). The first sign that opens a gap in quality between both products are the bolts: I have a WNS Vantage AX and you can easily adjust the tilt of the limbs and the tension using the provided allen keys for that, whereas in my TBOW the tilt screws are extremely difficult to operate, as if they were rusty or the tolerances were off. The tension bolts were also harder than in the WNS. I doubt a genuine Satori would have the same faults. Is not a big problem, but in this case I think that is very clear that you get what you pay for, and the Satori has superior standards in terms of machining and mechanical performance, which is not a surprise having in consideration that the TBOW with limbs and accesories cost ~40% of the mrsp of the Satori riser.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

strugglesticks said:


> I just think it is suspicious that Hoyt does not make some sort of a statement.
> 
> .....


Silly comment, What could they possibly say?









BarneySlayer said:


> It is possible to get very good manufacturing in China. I met a guy who made quite a business in the electronics industry, and said that he could get great manufacturing in China, but you had to have your own QA engineer, who worked for you, not the factory, overseeing factory operations. Chinese manufacturers, apart from the theft of intellectual property, have a habit of doing as little as they can get away with, once they feel that they can, to maximize their own profits. If there is no leverage on quality control, roll your dice.
> .....
> 
> You might do quite well buying a Chinese copy, or you might have the thing snap at full draw one day, lose an eye,
> .....


Good commentary...you nailed it. 

I have a few buddies that know Chinese manufacturing well....its a chit show if you don't have your own guy checking stuff.

So heres an example; a buddy making circuit boards for paintball guns....$.30 each for 3,000 of them. He hires an outside outfit to QC them...which costs more than the boards BTW...all good. 

Next batch he doesn't QC them. After some of his guns have been in the rain...they stop working. After a long involved costly analysis of what happened, not only did he lose a lot of money, his brand went in the tanker. 

It turns out the Chinese manufacturer substituted another metal for the copper on the boards....as he made an extra 1/10th of a cent per board in profit by using the lesser metal....but it rots when wet or damp. My buddy had zero recourse. 

My other buddy makes a patented product in his legit business that backs his product, he sells for $45....and you can find the exact same item [probably from the same assembly line] for less than $10 on Alibaba. He has no recourse. 

*You guys that are thinking, "who cares...I got a good deal" are just plain greedy and short sighted cutting our throats by promoting this stuff. Same folks that are buying tools at the flea markets......yeah it's a good deal....they're stolen goods!
*

................


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

For those who have no knowledge of present-day manufacturing, not all parts of a finished product comes from one manufacturer. Many manufacturers specialize on parts to keep the cost down. For example, one manufacturer may only deal with screws and bolts like tiller bolts for ILF risers (Hoyt, WNS, Gillo, etc.), car-related bolts and screws (Honda, Chevy, Porsche, etc.), or bolts for building construction. But they don't do fabrication of ILF risers. Another manufacturer with the appropriate specialty will have to fabricate the bare riser (no bolts, no screws, and the paint job maybe even handed to another facility).

The point here is, don't jump to conclusion by just looking at the screw materials used on the risers. But you could try something like swapping the screws between the risers and compare how they fit.

Ever heard of the phrase "Assembled in the USA"?


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Beendare said:


> Silly comment, What could they possibly say?


I think it would behoove them to address it. If the Tbow is truly a lower-quality copy, which I believe it is, why not point that out? Hoyt could easily end all of the speculation.

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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4763249&page=3


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

GT spells it out for you.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> GT spells it out for you.


Ok, but I am still not buying it. Who the hell knows who GT is for sure and whether or not he is just full of it? All the signs point to machined from cast. The size of the riser. The fact that Tbow is able to achieve the exact riser in cast form. The fact that when Hoyt went away from their laminated limbs to the more common and less expensive solid limbs, both the Rep for my area, and a phone tech at Hoyt both explicitly told my dealer that they were in fact laminated at which point I ordered a $1400 bow only to find out that they were both absolutely full of shizbit! The fact that nowadays more people than not are full of shizbit! The fact that Hoyt has mysteriously stopped giving details about the riser build in their marketing for this bow. I have no problem with Hoyt making bows any way they please, but I want to know exactly what I am getting for my money. When I hear a statement directly from Hoyt, regarding what type of billet aluminum the bow is machined from, and in house to boot, then I will believe it and apologize for starting a minor ****storm. 😀


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## JRT51 (Dec 17, 2018)

very minor


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

The Chinese have done the same thing with cast copies of Morrison Phoenix risers and Border Tempest risers.
I had one of the Chinese copies of the Morrison and it was a decent riser. They don't copy exactly and the result was that the height of the shelf to the bottom of the plunger hole was different.

One of the points of the trade deal with China was an attempt to protect against such copies. In China, Buick cars are big sellers. Buick now makes them in China as well for that market. However as part of the deal to build the factory and open up sales, Buick had to share technology with the Chinese.


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## pcfithian (Oct 15, 2015)

Is there any documented failure of a TBOW riser?

I recently sold a Junxing F166 21” cast/machined ILF riser, shot it for ~ 1 month. Very nice, but I prefer a one piece wood longbow.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

pcfithian said:


> Is there any documented failure of a TBOW riser?
> 
> I recently sold a Junxing F166 21” cast/machined ILF riser, shot it for ~ 1 month. Very nice, but I prefer a one piece wood longbow.


At $188, one can afford to replace it 4 times before kicking himself in the jimmies for not going with the Hoyt warranty. I originally was going to get a wood recurve since I really enjoyed the custom Brackenbury I had made for me in the mid 2000’s. Like an idiot, I sold that one on this site about 5 or 6 years ago for less than the cost of a Satori.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

pcfithian said:


> Is there any documented failure of a TBOW riser?
> 
> I recently sold a Junxing F166 21” cast/machined ILF riser, shot it for ~ 1 month. Very nice, but I prefer a one piece wood longbow.


Any cast riser is subject to the possibility of air bubbles in which causes the failure...


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

joeprec said:


> At $188, one can afford to replace it 4 times before kicking himself in the jimmies for not going with the Hoyt warranty. I originally was going to get a wood recurve since I really enjoyed the custom Brackenbury I had made for me in the mid 2000’s. Like an idiot, I sold that one on this site about 5 or 6 years ago for less than the cost of a Satori.


If that riser falls and you lose an eye you'll be glad you saved so much... you'll have money left over for doctor bills


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> joeprec said:
> 
> 
> > At $188, one can afford to replace it 4 times before kicking himself in the jimmies for not going with the Hoyt warranty. I originally was going to get a wood recurve since I really enjoyed the custom Brackenbury I had made for me in the mid 2000’s. Like an idiot, I sold that one on this site about 5 or 6 years ago for less than the cost of a Satori.
> ...


Oh my, that is gonna keep me up nights now worrying about it. Kind of like when my Hoyt Super Slam turned out to be a Super Snapper and broke at the sight window. 😀


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

stick monkey said:


> The satori is machined.


that's what I was thinking... satoris are machined, how could a cast replica have anything to do with Hoyt? I thought all of their aluminum risers were made here, but not their carbon risers.

I wouldn't buy a Chinese knock off at any price, even if it was machined, on principal alone. if I can't afford the original, I don't need it, i'm not justifying a knock off with made up theories to make myself feel better about it


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

This guy obviously knows everything about Hoyt business practices since he's shot them for years. Kinda like he takes a poop everyday so he knows his shi$.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

stick monkey said:


> This guy obviously knows everything about Hoyt business practices since he's shot them for years. Kinda like he takes a poop everyday so he knows his shi$.


he's just trying to justify the knockoff in his own head by making speculations, pretty standard, his choice, nobody will change his mind, and it doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.... if something similar happened in his life he would instantly turn into a victim and demand action, haha


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> This guy obviously knows everything about Hoyt business practices since he's shot them for years. Kinda like he takes a poop everyday so he knows his shi$.


Pretty ample evidence, genius. 😀


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> stick monkey said:
> 
> 
> > This guy obviously knows everything about Hoyt business practices since he's shot them for years. Kinda like he takes a poop everyday so he knows his shi$.
> ...


Justify a $188 purchase? At that price I could buy one a week. 🙄


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

I would be pretty pi$$ed if I bought a new Satori, then it came out later that I paid $400 for a machined casting.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I would be pretty pi$$ed if I bought a new Satori, then it came out later that I paid $400 for a machined casting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Exactly! 

In my 36 years of shooting bows, I have never ever seen a cast riser bow that was identical to a machined from billet one in every detail. Not even close. Hoyt would have to officially and explicitly state that it is absolutely machined from billet before I am going to believe it. It is just too exact of a match. I am absolutely not saying they have lied about anything. It is simply that we are not given ANY official information about it. I never would have cared either until my Hoyt dealer clued me into the Satori.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

joeprec said:


> Exactly!
> 
> In my 36 years of shooting bows, I have never ever seen a cast riser bow that was identical to a machined from billet one in every detail. Not even close. Hoyt would have to officially and explicitly state that it is absolutely machined from billet before I am going to believe it. It is just too exact of a match. I am absolutely not saying they have lied about anything. It is simply that we are not given ANY official information about it. I never would have cared either until my Hoyt dealer clued me into the Satori.


Hoyt doesn't owe you anything. You didn't buy a satori.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> joeprec said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly!
> ...


No they do not and I never said they did. It is clear that I am questioning how their product is made which is fair game no matter who you are. You are trying to make the claim that I am doing something wrong by pointing out the obvious possibilities. If that is true then they can clear it right up, now can’t they? If you own a Satori and are upset at me for what I have said about it, then that proves the whole point of the post. Maybe you don’t own a Satori but are a Hoyt fan. I am a Hoyt fan too. I am not a fan of ambiguity combined with a relatively high price tag. Have a good day. 😀


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

This thread is basically people saying gt is probably lying vs people who believe him. 

I believe him.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I just think you are way too invested in an argument that you are not even invested in.


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## richmeister (Dec 13, 2015)

Good bows, 
So what if China is producing and selling them cheaper than Hoyt. Save some money....Banks have been ripping off their customers including you since the Federal Reserve has taken a monopoly on all banks....
Do yourself a favor and buy Chinese, they already own us.


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## Addapost (Dec 15, 2019)

Interesting. I'm just trying to get to 20 posts so I can get on the classifieds and pick up a good deal. Maybe on a Santori.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I have a 21" satori. It's a very nice riser. I wasn't disappointed.


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## Yooper-travler (Feb 28, 2011)

Addapost said:


> Interesting. I'm just trying to get to 20 posts so I can get on the classifieds and pick up a good deal. Maybe on a Santori.


Just do what those who only want access to the classified do, dredge up 10 year old threads and add a benign comment (preferably in the general section).


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## pcfithian (Oct 15, 2015)

stick monkey said:


> Any cast riser is subject to the possibility of air bubbles in which causes the failure...


True, but this also depends on the quality of the tooling and casting process.

Again, is there any documented failure of a TBOW riser?


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## richmeister (Dec 13, 2015)

stick monkey said:


> pcfithian said:
> 
> 
> > Is there any documented failure of a TBOW riser?
> ...


If a cast riser was that dangerous to worry about breaking nobody would be warfing BB risers and the likes.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Few people would suggest that a cast riser cant be strong enough theres plenty out there that work fine. The issue would be that a riser design engineered for extruded aluminum being executed in a cast might be weak. And theres the possibility that the casting job itself mighht not be well done when you dont have a major company standing behind it.


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## trueflite (Jan 28, 2020)

Interesting that the chinese guy selling them gives this disclaimer "Please allow 1-3mm error due to manual measurement. Please make sure that you do not mind before you bid" with that and the reports of stripping threads, I think they are very close copies but not the same duck as Hoyt Satori.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Folks justify buying this stuff...just like the folks that are buying stolen tools at the flea market, "If I don't buy it, someone else will" They use all sorts of weak excuses to justify their greed. 

All justified in their mind until Hoyt goes under...or Boeing...or any other major manufacturing company goes under due to Foreign manufacturing ripping them off. Most of our corporations see the writing on the wall and have moved most mnfr overseas to compete. 

I get it...its a moral argument...and some folks don't give a rats patutty about anyone other than themself....let alone fair business practices. One can only hope these folks work in manufacturing so the karma eventually falls on them.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

Beendare said:


> Folks justify buying this stuff...just like the folks that are buying stolen tools at the flea market, "If I don't buy it, someone else will" They use all sorts of weak excuses to justify their greed.
> 
> All justified in their mind until Hoyt goes under...or Boeing...or any other major manufacturing company goes under due to Foreign manufacturing ripping them off. Most of our corporations see the writing on the wall and have moved most mnfr overseas to compete.
> 
> I get it...its a moral argument...and some folks don't give a rats patutty about anyone other than themself....let alone fair business practices. One can only hope these folks work in manufacturing so the karma eventually falls on them.


China has certainly reverse engineered a lot of products complete with their flaws. Creating a mold for a bow riser is a major investment. It is far more likely that this is not a case of reverse engineering, but a case of a company having a product manufactured over there and the manufacturer bootlegging some of the turnout. If this is the case, then it is “Karma” on the companies who move production overseas and have it backfire on them, not on their customers. China is not very good at reverse engineering, but they can be good at manufacturing with the right training, information, and understanding of the product. This TBow looks well made despite some dubious comments attempting to make them seem like cheap copies. The hardware works and looks just as good as any USA hardware I have seen in my 36 years if shooting. The finish looks good. The limbs draw as good as my custom recurve did, and it is relatively quiet and solid feeling. It feels like a quality piece that should be at least double what I paid for it. Quadruple, like the Hoyt is, I am not so sure???


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

This thread is weird.

We got one guy suggesting that copying unpatented stuff(as far as i know and no one has suggest a patent) is immoral.

And we have one guy countering that with a speculative elaborate and completely unsubstantiated story.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Logic says if they made these in China as people are implying...why isn't the tbow available in 17 and 21 like the Hoyt? it's a copy...if you think it draws as nice as your custom bow then you probably don't shoot enough to discern the difference.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

Interestingly, the T-bow is more attractive than the copied Satori, because of its wood grip. I almost bought one because I can't find an aftermarket wood grip anywhere that fits the Satori.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

joeprec said:


> Justify a $188 purchase? At that price I could buy one a week. 🙄


justifying the purchase vs paying for the real riser.... if you could afford 1 per week, why not save up for a couple weeks and not support a stolen design?

that makes it worse to me, showing you just don't care at all


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

richmeister said:


> Good bows,
> So what if China is producing and selling them cheaper than Hoyt. Save some money....Banks have been ripping off their customers including you since the Federal Reserve has taken a monopoly on all banks....
> Do yourself a favor and buy Chinese, they already own us.


more justification.... you and others are ok with it as long as it doesn't happen to you... SMH


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Obviously, two points of view.

1) I'm an American. I buy American.

2) I'm an American. I'll buy what I please.

I'm good with either.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

stick monkey said:


> Logic says if they made these in China as people are implying...why isn't the tbow available in 17 and 21 like the Hoyt?


[emoji3516] That is a good question.

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## richmeister (Dec 13, 2015)

roosiebull said:


> richmeister said:
> 
> 
> > Good bows,
> ...


Yeah, I'm definately ok with spending my money where I want.
You seem to believe in all the hoo ha USA B.S that this countries rules and regs belong world wide...zip it Hitler and let's move on to a different rant.


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## fishingolf (Jul 21, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Obviously, two points of view.
> 
> 1) I'm an American. I buy American.
> 
> ...


Nice! 

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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Wow.


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

stick monkey said:


> Logic says if they made these in China as people are implying...why isn't the tbow available in 17 and 21 like the Hoyt? it's a copy...if you think it draws as nice as your custom bow then you probably don't shoot enough to discern the difference.


About the only thing there is in a draw cycle for a traditional bow that makes a discernable difference is when a bow stacks. This one does not at my draw length. If it has a fairly linear draw then what else is there?


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## fishingolf (Jul 21, 2009)

joeprec said:


> About the only thing there is in a draw cycle for a traditional bow that makes a discernable difference is when a bow stacks. This one does not at my draw length. If it has a fairly linear draw then what else is there?


Good point

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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

kegan said:


> Wow.


^^^

Best summary.

We've come a long way.


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## norton850 (Feb 4, 2010)

I have bow new satori risers and tbow risers. Hoyt risers re machined make no exception to this rule. T Bow risers are cast and only sell for $65 direct from the manufactuer , Junxing in China. There are differences in the 2 designs dimensionally and in the cast finish. Example if you try and put a Tbow grip on hoyt satori riser it will not fit correctly and is very loose. Put hoyt grip on a tbow riser it will be to tight to go on. Also hoyt risers have serial numbers under the grips or buy the limb fittings . Tbow risers have no identifying marks.

Now take the hoyt buffalo bow clone , that riser was an exact copy of a hoyt bow , dimensionally the same and all parts interchanged. There were some scumbags on ebay that tried to sell hoyt buffalo bow clones with hoyt limbs and trying ripoff ppl.


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## JRT51 (Dec 17, 2018)

Why does everyone call this copy a Tbow when it clearly says Taow as in tAow?,,,marketed frequently by Milaem and Sharrow and specified as being cast of 7075 in CNC cut molds. If you google "Tbow riser" the first item that appears is the dyslexic dude's video down under that clearly cannot read the label on the top of the box about 3 minutes in.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

norton850 said:


> I have bow new satori risers and tbow risers. Hoyt risers re machined make no exception to this rule. T Bow risers are cast and only sell for $65 direct from the manufactuer , Junxing in China. There are differences in the 2 designs dimensionally and in the cast finish. Example if you try and put a Tbow grip on hoyt satori riser it will not fit correctly and is very loose. Put hoyt grip on a tbow riser it will be to tight to go on. Also hoyt risers have serial numbers under the grips or buy the limb fittings . Tbow risers have no identifying marks.
> 
> Now take the hoyt buffalo bow clone , that riser was an exact copy of a hoyt bow , dimensionally the same and all parts interchanged. There were some scumbags on ebay that tried to sell hoyt buffalo bow clones with hoyt limbs and trying ripoff ppl.


I guess this makes it clear the Tbow is just a low-quality knock-off of the Satori?


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

JRT51 said:


> Why does everyone call this copy a Tbow when it clearly says Taow as in tAow?,,,marketed frequently by Milaem and Sharrow and specified as being cast of 7075 in CNC cut molds. If you google "Tbow riser" the first item that appears is the dyslexic dude's video down under that clearly cannot read the label on the top of the box about 3 minutes in.


IFL! I think Tbow translates to Taow in Chinglish.

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## norton850 (Feb 4, 2010)

It is a copy because it is a 99 % exact cast copy of a hoyt 19" satori riser. Nothing original about , only way they get away with it is because its made in china.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Looks like several different companies make the thing now. The first I heard of it was that guy down under who referred to it as Tbow.


https://youtu.be/kt6lWjmHlmY


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

norton850 said:


> I have bow new satori risers and tbow risers. Hoyt risers re machined make no exception to this rule. T Bow risers are cast and only sell for $65 direct from the manufactuer , Junxing in China. There are differences in the 2 designs dimensionally and in the cast finish. Example if you try and put a Tbow grip on hoyt satori riser it will not fit correctly and is very loose. Put hoyt grip on a tbow riser it will be to tight to go on. Also hoyt risers have serial numbers under the grips or buy the limb fittings . Tbow risers have no identifying marks.
> 
> Now take the hoyt buffalo bow clone , that riser was an exact copy of a hoyt bow , dimensionally the same and all parts interchanged. There were some scumbags on ebay that tried to sell hoyt buffalo bow clones with hoyt limbs and trying ripoff ppl.


How about side by side photos with an explanation of how you are determining that the Hoyt is billet and not machined from a casting. If you do this for us then it will be problem solved, and I will personally and explicitly declare that I am completely wrong. Thanks


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## joeprec (Aug 15, 2005)

JRT51 said:


> Why does everyone call this copy a Tbow when it clearly says Taow as in tAow?,,,marketed frequently by Milaem and Sharrow and specified as being cast of 7075 in CNC cut molds. If you google "Tbow riser" the first item that appears is the dyslexic dude's video down under that clearly cannot read the label on the top of the box about 3 minutes in.


How do you know for sure this "a" is not in fact a fancy B? I am not saying you are wrong, it just looks like a B when you consider the fact that the OW are not lower case and the so called a is full size also. TBOW makes sense to an American, but TaOW with a large lower case a makes no sense. Maybe you are Chinese and think in Chinese?


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## fishingolf (Jul 21, 2009)

JRT51 said:


> Why does everyone call this copy a Tbow when it clearly says Taow as in tAow?,,,marketed frequently by Milaem and Sharrow and specified as being cast of 7075 in CNC cut molds. If you google "Tbow riser" the first item that appears is the dyslexic dude's video down under that clearly cannot read the label on the top of the box about 3 minutes in.


Bow makes more sense than Aow. The decal on the limbs seems to be TBOW.










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## fishingolf (Jul 21, 2009)

joeprec said:


> How do you know for sure this "a" is not in fact a fancy B? I am not saying you are wrong, it just looks like a B when you consider the fact that the OW are not lower case and the so called a is full size also. TBOW makes sense to an American, but TaOW with a large lower case a makes no sense. Maybe you are Chinese and think in Chinese?


Haha. yup. I read it as "T"raditional Bow and not "T"raditional aow.


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## thebatman (Nov 28, 2016)

Been a year since last post, what are the thoughts these days on the Tbow/Taow?

Is it a poor quality cast of the original, or indeed the same build quality as the Satori?


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## EHartkopf (Aug 7, 2017)

You guys understand that a Chinese company could legally order a Hoyt Satori, 3D scan it, then cast it off of the 3D model. It would produce an exact replica. I don't think Hoyt is doing anything nefarious and having risers made over seas. I can tell you that cast riser are not as strong at machined risers and it isn't recommended that you shoot heavy limbs on them. I own a Satori and know for a fact it was machined.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jewalker7842 said:


> From what I've seen the Tbow isn't a clone, or copy, it IS the Satori riser. Makes you really wonder what Hoyt is up to. The resemblance is too exact for there not to be some form of manufacturing for Hoyt over there. There is NO DISTINGUISHABLE differences between the two. It's a great price for a Chinese riser that will not disappoint you. I will probably pick one up myself here soon. I know a few guys that actually sold their Satori's because the Tbow was better quality than the Hoyt!


Justifying...

you say it IS a satori but you know people who sold satori to buy the knock-off because it’s better? Come on...

it’s justification because you want one, no reason to BS your case, you are ok buying a stolen design knock-off from China, them’s the facts


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> A rumor started a few years back that Hoyt was outsourcing their risers and claiming the Excel was cast. A Hoyt rep came on and said ALL Hoyt risers were made in house here in the USA and ALL were CNC'd from a solid billet.


The riser of my Hoyt Buffalo (a great bow), bought from an official Hoyt Dealer and with warranty etc, definitely wasn't CNC'd. It's cast aluminium. From paint-job (chipping) to alu density, it's a poorer quality than my Junxing Pharos II 100% machined ILF riser at 1/4 the price.

Most everything is made in China these days, and a heap of it is 1st class excellent. Some of it's junk. That's no different from 'American Made' either. I've bought a ton of American made junk, and some fantastic products too. Good and bad quality is all over, in every production context.

Chinese made, American made, Swiss made, German made - meaningless descriptors of quality these days.

China dominates in manufacturing, because companies the world over keep investing their production there, partly because 1) they are overall great at it 2) because due to the regime labour is cheaper 3) because they can do volume like no one else can and 4) because folk actually like Chinese made products and keep buying them again and again.

If folk want to buy locally made to support their economy, that's great. Better for the environment, better for their fellow locals. But to not buy something because it's made in China, on the basis that it is somehow poor quality as a result, is a biased bucket that holds no water.


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## JRT51 (Dec 17, 2018)

fishingolf said:


> Bow makes more sense than Aow. The decal on the limbs seems to be TBOW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





joeprec said:


> How do you know for sure this "a" is not in fact a fancy B? I am not saying you are wrong, it just looks like a B when you consider the fact that the OW are not lower case and the so called a is full size also. TBOW makes sense to an American, but TaOW with a large lower case a makes no sense. Maybe you are Chinese and think in Chinese?








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## Tarsyn (Feb 1, 2021)

I read an article that Hoyt makes their Satori from a solid piece of aluminium, machined and made in the USA.


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## fishingolf (Jul 21, 2009)

I would hope so considering the price they charge


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## StruggleStix (Aug 29, 2021)

Whoever has copyrights or ownership or logo feces, or the molds, and whatever laws were or weren't broken, it's a fine bow for 200 bucks, and it chucks these traditional classic xt's as well as anything with an $800 tag on it


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I just saw where TaOW is now offering a copy of the Border Tempest. So... I suppose it's natural for some of you to assume Border Archery's risers are made in China now, huh?


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## Archermike90 (Aug 29, 2021)

Has anyone seen a left handed one?


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I just saw where TaOW is now offering a copy of the Border Tempest. So... I suppose it's natural for some of you to assume Border Archery's risers are made in China now, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 7457803


The Sids are not taking this well.

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## johndeere87 (Sep 10, 2009)

strugglesticks said:


> The Sids are not taking this well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


No they are not. I’m sure it would feel like a kick in the teeth.


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## Steve K (11 mo ago)

Beendare said:


> Its called ripping off intellectual property rights. Hoyt does all of the R&D....and these folks just rip them off.
> 
> I've had this happen to buddies building BH's and paintball guns in China....China ripped them off .....sometimes on the same assembly line.
> 
> ...


Enjoy your time with your the boys and the Taow
.


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## Steve K (11 mo ago)

jewalker7842 said:


> From what I've seen the Tbow isn't a clone, or copy, it IS the Satori riser. Makes you really wonder what Hoyt is up to. The resemblance is too exact for there not to be some form of manufacturing for Hoyt over there. There is NO DISTINGUISHABLE differences between the two. It's a great price for a Chinese riser that will not disappoint you. I will probably pick one up myself here soon. I know a few guys that actually sold their Satori's because the Tbow was better quality than the Hoyt!


it is same riser Hoyt import them


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Then why will a Hoyt grip not fit the TaOW riser?


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Interesting read.


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

Interesting how often this question comes up. Lots of guys that would love to have a Satori but are just to cheap to buy one. Takes me back to when I start racing MX as a kid and had to buy my first real good helmet. Bell @ $270.? (This was late 70’s) or one of the Chinese knock offs @ $65.? Coach told me “if you have a $10.00 head buy a $10.00 helmet.”
If CHEAP is all that matters to you, you will be happy with the Tbow. As far as the differences the question has been answered…the cheap guys just aren’t listening.


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## 8025952 (Sep 7, 2020)

Yeah side by side there are similarities but they are different riseres.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

If Hoyt would put Made In America on their risers and post the grade of aluminum (6061) used it would sure distinguish them from cheaper nock offs, but as many in the archery community know bow manufacturers have been outsourcing their parts overseas for years now and only assemble many of their bows.
Years ago when machined aluminum bows were advertised the grade of aluminum was always posted with “Made In America“ , not so much anymore.


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## jason miller (Oct 3, 2006)

Just got one today. Says it’s made in the US right on the riser. Don’t really care what aluminum it is, but I’d wager $100 that it’s 6061 or better.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

jason miller said:


> Just got one today. Says it’s made in the US right on the riser. Don’t really care what aluminum it is, but I’d wager $100 that it’s 6061 or better.


👍
As long as it’s not cast.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

8025952 said:


> Yeah side by side there are similarities but they are different riseres.


On the nock off where the limb pads are there are small wings on the side of the limbs on the one I seen, the Hoyt doesn’t have them.


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## 8025952 (Sep 7, 2020)

Yeah the one I looked up has different cut outs, hole diameters. I will admit they are close at a glance but they are not one and the same.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

I believe the Satori risers are machined cast, a billet machined riser doesn’t need that much bulk and Hoyt won’t say otherwise in their literature on the bow or in repeated e-mails I have made to them. They believe it serves them better as a mystery.


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

No mystery. You’re beating a dead horse.


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## jason miller (Oct 3, 2006)

Just got off the phone with Doug at Hoyt. He confirmed that Satori risers are milled from a billet of 6061-T6 aluminum, right here in the USA.

Nice to have a company that still engineers and produces quality products in our own country. As far as customer service, what more could you ask for than to be able, as a complete stranger, to call a company, ask for the man in charge of an entire product line, leave him a voicemail stating you have some basic questions about a specific product, and get a phone call back the very next day with answers to all of your questions. Seems like a real glimmer of hope and mark of pride for me, personally.

And also, Doug confirmed that 4 turns out is the max adjustment in the tiller bolts, and 3.5 turns out from bottom would be even better.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

dougmax said:


> No mystery. You’re beating a dead horse.


I’ve read numerous threads posted over a few years on different forums that show nothing conclusive anywhere, even from Hoyt. I started out wanting one until reading reviews about the discrepancy of what metal the riser is made of (cast). Logic then told me check out Hoyt’s site, after not finding anything there I contacted them a few times by e-mail with an acknowledgment that they received my e-mails but no response to my question.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

jason miller said:


> Just got off the phone with Doug at Hoyt. He confirmed that Satori risers are milled from a billet of 6061-T6 aluminum, right here in the USA.
> 
> Nice to have a company that still engineers and produces quality products in our own country. As far as customer service, what more could you ask for than to be able, as a complete stranger, to call a company, ask for the man in charge of an entire product line, leave him a voicemail stating you have some basic questions about a specific product, and get a phone call back the very next day with answers to all of your questions. Seems like a real glimmer of hope and mark of pride for me, personally.
> 
> And also, Doug confirmed that 4 turns out is the max adjustment in the tiller bolts, and 3.5 turns out from bottom would be even better.


x


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## EHartkopf (Aug 7, 2017)

People are saying that these are "Milled from a cast billet" as if that is a negative. Can someone explain to me the difference between a standard billet and a cast billet? My understanding was that all billets had to be cast.


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## EHartkopf (Aug 7, 2017)

I am just now realizing that a billet could be forged, but does that offer substantial benefits?


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

Yes forged is much stronger. Basically cast is metal heated beyond boiling point and poured into a mold introducing air in the pouring and cooling process which can lead to imperfections in the final product. Forged metal while heated never reaches the state of being liquid just soft enough to be pressed (forged) into a more dense material. I build race engines for a living…we would use a forged crankshaft and connecting rods over cast for strength and durability.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

6061 aluminum alloy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Basically that alloy is not cast into simple billets. Its made through a specific process and hardening. It could then be either extruded or forged or simply machined. Its good stuff.

Frankly Im sick of this question and more so the naysayers.
Hoyt reps have many times explained this.


That said - most of the cast risers out there work fine. Most newer risers are designed with limiting flex in mind and are plenty strong enough even if you cast them.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

As much as this have been posted over a few years and from all of the calls to Hoyt that people supposedly have made, on top of the Hoyt marketing people monitoring forums, a simple solution would be to post in the description of the bow under specs what kind of high grade aluminum the riser was made of like everyone use to do. When I use to shoot Hoyt compounds they would advertise about the high grade aluminum used in their machining along with the aluminum grade listed in the specs section of the bow description. When using high grade aluminum it would be a selling point Hoyt’s marketing department would insist on having in their promotions, like they use to do.


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

1canvas said:


> As much as this have been posted over a few years and from all of the calls to Hoyt that people supposedly have made, on top of the Hoyt marketing people monitoring forums, a simple solution would be to post in the description of the bow under specs what kind of high grade aluminum the riser was made of like everyone use to do. When I use to shoot Hoyt compounds they would advertise about the high grade aluminum used in their machining along with the aluminum grade listed in the specs section of the bow description. When using high grade aluminum it would be a selling point Hoyt’s marketing department would insist on having in their promotions, like they use to do.


But then you get guys that don’t know the difference between one alloy and another, or why one would be used for one thing but not another…then they start to speculate on what “they believe” is important ( better) and it adds to the confusion. So now you know that the quality is there…did you order one yet?


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

dougmax said:


> But then you get guys that don’t know the difference between one alloy and another, or why one would be used for one thing but not another…then they start to speculate on what “they believe” is important ( better) and it adds to the confusion. So now you know that the quality is there…did you order one yet?


I am aware of the different grades of aluminum but I will be waiting for that information from Hoyt before I buy. The only thing I have seen up till now is posts from people I don’t know stating they have talked to different people at Hoyt and they was told…… and those statements haven’t been consistent either, a common occurrence on older threads and other forums also when it comes to the Satori. I just don’t want to pay good money for a cheap cast riser that has been machined.
I have three e-mails to them out two weeks apart from each and no response.


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## Pike (Apr 5, 2004)

Call them yourself, their contact info is under support on their web site
*Hoyt Archery*
593 North Wright Brothers Drive
Salt Lake City, UT 84116
(801) 363-2990


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## jason miller (Oct 3, 2006)

The reality is that Hoyt’s recurve segment is not a very large percentage of their business. There probably aren’t very many people working there that know the answers to technical questions about their recurve products. Your random emails are likely to be received by someone who doesn’t know the answers.

Doug Denton is the man to ask. He verified that the Satori risers are milled from a billet of 6061 here in the USA. What more do you want? They’re a quality product made domestically. If that’s what you want, buy one.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Looking at the Satori risers I’m wondering if they changed the design slightly or are different riser length limb pads different? I look at risers on the Hoyt sight and the limb pads appear to be flat, when I look at them on other sites like Lancaster it appears to have rounded wings on the limb pads that would cradle the limb butt, or is there something I’m missing. I wish I could do the picture thing to post.
I‘m wondering if the picture on the Hoyt site is a new model.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

They look the same to me. The only thing I noticed is, Hoyt uses the 17" riser in all the descriptions for different length risers.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> They look the same to me. The only thing I noticed is, Hoyt uses the 17" riser in all the descriptions for different length risers.
> 
> View attachment 7585321


Thanks for the pics, they show exactly what I was talking about. Look real close at the flat limb pad on the left then look at the semi circular outside of the right that seems to capture the limb butt, they are quite different. I just wasn’t sure if different length risers have different configuration of the limb pads.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Ah yes, I see what you mean.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Ah yes, I see what you mean.
> 
> View attachment 7585382


Thanks again. I just want to make sure that I get the latest model. Everyone I have seen from Lancaster, Three Rivers, and other places show the one on the right.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Mine was like the right one but I would guess that is a newer dumbed down and cheaper to be machined riser … a slightly uglier new version. Hoyt never seem to disappoint…


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

They are as the one on the right. Haven’t changed. The one on the left is either an old prototype or just a computer image. Pictured is one of the earliest releases- 21” Satori . My latest in Wilderness green is exactly the same.


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

stick monkey said:


> Mine was like the right one but I would guess that is a newer dumbed down and cheaper to be machined riser … a slightly uglier new version. Hoyt never seem to disappoint…


And yet you bought it anyway. So Hoyt was able to sell you a $700. bow you thought was ugly? Lol.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

dougmax said:


> And yet you bought it anyway. So Hoyt was able to sell you a $700. bow you thought was ugly? Lol.


No. I bought the original one which I think looks nice. And I bought the riser separately. And the newer one still looks okay but it’s uglier than the original. Don’t try to assume that you know what I am thinking


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Look at the Hoyt’s website..,the images on there are a newer cheaper looking riser.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

stick monkey said:


> Look at the Hoyt’s website..,the images on there are a newer cheaper looking riser.


The only thing I see different are the limb pads.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

1canvas said:


> The only thing I see different are the limb pads.


well I think it looks cheaper


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

And less finished


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

stick monkey said:


> well I think it looks cheaper


It probably takes away a machining step off of production. I see that Three Rivers has the new riser for 20.00 more than Lancaster with the older style. I don’t think it makes a difference. I think I like the limb butt protected.


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## jason miller (Oct 3, 2006)

I doubt there is an older or newer style. 3Rivers just has terrible pricing across the board on everything.


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

Stickbow Supplies in Maryland has the best inventory and price on a complete Satori package @ $739.00 Pictures are shown of the new inventory arrived in the last week…risers are the same - no change.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I’m sure that Hoyt had some risers already finished but if their website is accurate which I don’t see why it would not be since it has changed from when it had all 3 risers pictured on their site in the past. I imagine when the older ones are gone they will be shipping the newer cheaper ones.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

stick monkey said:


> I’m sure that Hoyt had some risers already finished but if their website is accurate which I don’t see why it would not be since it has changed from when it had all 3 risers pictured on their site in the past. I imagine when the older ones are gone they will be shipping the newer cheaper ones.


Cheaper in price would be nice😂.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

dougmax said:


> Stickbow Supplies in Maryland has the best inventory and price on a complete Satori package @ $739.00 Pictures are shown of the new inventory arrived in the last week…risers are the same - no change.


Thanks, do they have free shipping?


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## dougmax (Jul 23, 2009)

Shipping is not free. Mine was $9.00 from Maryland to Pa. With 2 dozen arrows …2 days.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

dougmax said:


> Shipping is not free. Mine was $9.00 from Maryland to Pa. With 2 dozen arrows …2 days.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

I had decided to call Hoyt today and talked to someone that seemed very knowledgeable, he assured me that the riser is not cast and machined from billet aluminum, so I am confident now it’s not a cast riser so I finally got one ordered😁.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

dougmax said:


> Stickbow Supplies in Maryland has the best inventory and price on a complete Satori package @ $739.00 Pictures are shown of the new inventory arrived in the last week…risers are the same - no change.


Thanks for the heads up on Stickbow Supplies, I just ordered a riser from them today and they beat everyone’s price by a large amount. I never heard of them before this thread.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

1canvas said:


> I had decided to call Hoyt today and talked to someone that seemed very knowledgeable, he assured me that the riser is not cast and machined from billet aluminum, so I am confident now it’s not a cast riser so I finally got one ordered😁.


 So youre informing us of what we we already informed you.......


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Dartwick said:


> So youre informing us of what we we already informed you.......


No, I’m informing of what a person from Hoyt told me. He did not point me to any literature, bow specs or Hoyt official press release, just a statement from a guy at Hoyt.
I chose to accept his statement instead of a few posts here from unknowns.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Dartwick said:


> Frankly Im sick of this question and more so the naysayers.
> Hoyt reps have many times explained this.


There would be no need for speculations if Hoyt would include this info in their specs.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

1canvas said:


> No, I’m informing of what a person from Hoyt told me. He did not point me to any literature, bow specs or Hoyt official press release, just a statement from a guy at Hoyt.
> I chose to accept his statement instead of a few posts here from unknowns.


 But you realize that by your logic - youre just another unknown?

My point isnt to discount your veracity, but to point out that your post is exactly the what you discounted from others.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Dartwick said:


> But you realize that by your logic - youre just another unknown?
> 
> My point isnt to discount your veracity, but to point out that your post is exactly the what you discounted from others.


Not really. I have been on here for a very long time, over that amount of time I have became acquainted with others on here whom I trust. Those people carry a lot of weight on my decisions so I watch to see if they chime in and what their opinion is. Others that seem to be angry or just rude I dismiss anything they have to say, they seem to have and ax to grind. Sometimes I will contact others on here that post wisely and ask them for their opinion, that’s what I did before I purchased the riser yesterday.
I have to add that I have been doing this before I buy for years and it has worked extremely well.


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## bucco921 (Jan 2, 2012)

I have no dog in this fight... but it's inexcusable that they won't put it in writing to anyone or on any product info. I can go to Alternatives and click on even an 80$ riser and immediately see if cast magnesium, cast alum, cast then machined, or machined from solid billet. It's a not a particularly cheap riser.....


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

^^^^ I agree.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> A rumor started a few years back that Hoyt was outsourcing their risers and claiming the Excel was cast. A Hoyt rep came on and said ALL Hoyt risers were made in house here in the USA and ALL were CNC'd from a solid billet.













123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I would be pretty pi$$ed if I bought a new Satori, then it came out later that I paid $400 for a machined casting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Actually it’s close to 500.00 with tax.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Everyones a metallurgist.


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## olliedog (Oct 25, 2013)

Wow. I think I just lost a load of braincells. I'm no metallurgist but seems like cast aluminum would be less dense. All you would need to do is weigh one of each. Or take Hoyts (Doug's) word for it and move on. 

BTW, I just removed all the paint from my 1990 pro vantage for a warf! Can't wait to shoot this Hoyt again. Cast magnesium riser and all! 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

^^^^ With a Lyman trigger scale the Hoyt weighs 2.61 and the Taow weighs 2.46, both without the grips. The grips are interchangeable.
On the shot with the same limbs, rest and string, the Taow has a bit of vibration and noise, the Satori is dead in the hand and extremely quiet.
Although they look the same, side by side you can see they are definitely not, that would make a weight comparison not relevant.
In my opinion the Taow is a good riser for the cheap price, but my new Satori far exceeds in both quality and shooting experience, well worth the price.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

1canvas said:


> ^^^^ With a Lyman trigger scale the Hoyt weighs 2.61 and the Taow weighs 2.46, both without the grips. The grips are interchangeable.
> On the shot with the same limbs, rest and string, the Taow has a bit of vibration and noise, the Satori is dead in the hand and extremely quiet.
> Although they look the same, side by side you can see they are definitely not, that would make a weight comparison not relevant.
> In my opinion the Taow is a good riser for the cheap price, but my new Satori far exceeds in both quality and shooting experience, well worth the price.


Will a Hoyt grip fit on the taow or t bow? I would like to get one of the t bow for bow fishing…but I would want my jager grip to fit on it.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

^^^^ Yes it will. I have my Satori grip on my TBow.


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