# Archery and the "serious amateur" athlete



## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Im definitely a "serious amateur" and I have been since 2012. Long story but I picked up my first bow back in 2007 at the ripe age of 22 and shortly after starting, I crossed paths with Lloyd Brown and he got me interested in Olympic archery. Though at that time I was still getting my life in line.

Anyways ever since February 2012, I have spent almost every spare hour shooting and trying to get better. Had a variety of RAs as coaches from the OTC since we have easy access to them in San Diego. I have several ranges that I have built for myself to get ready for tournaments. I have learned and have incorporated many mental management and goal setting principals that are being taught.

For me, I place huge emphasis on the state level. I love going to USATs because travel is cool. And if I can do it for a sport, all the better. My goal for USATs are small. 1) Qualify for elimination day and 2) get past the first round  Ive only missed #1 once and I have only completed #2 once. Though there was this one time I took Zach to 5-3, almost to a 5-5... he still owes me a rematch... 

Anyways here in California, even though all the tournaments are within driving distance, none of the RAs/professional archers compete with the exception of Matt Zumbo. Matt is kind of a special case because he came from that crowd. Its always good to see him at a State shoot because like you said, im really competing against people who arent like him, but its a nice bar to see how an athlete at his caliber would also perform given the same conditions. For CA, they have set up nice milestone goals like state ranking, or Triple Crown ranking (highest score for three specific shoots). Things like that at the state level really do cater to the "serious amateur" category. 

Im not sure what event organizers could do to build this up at the USAT level for the "serious amateur". We can start muddying the waters with labeling certain shooters as professional and have overall ranking, along with pro ranking and amateur ranking.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> For CA, they have set up nice milestone goals like state ranking, or Triple Crown ranking (highest score for three specific shoots). Things like that at the state level really do cater to the "serious amateur" category.


Great example. Thanks.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

In the UK most archers in this bracket chase ranking points or clasifications (alot chase both)
I think those looking at ranking scores are only really looking to better themselves, to some just being in the table is enough.
More weight seems to be put on classifications as these have been around longer and can still include the old imperial rounds TO's seem to love so much.
These are worked out as a percentage of previous years scores at record status shoots for example 
A master bowman needs 3 wa1440 scores of 1190 plus ( thats top 4%)
A grandmaster bowman needs 3 wa1440 scores of 1259 plus ( top 1%)

It's worth noting that these are not reveiwed very often, in fact so many of the compound archers i know are MB (wa1440 1311) we often joke the badge comes in the box with the bow.

It a good system in that i can attend a tournament and achieve all i want without actually winning anything but equally in bad weather you get nothing unless you win.

There are however still some disciplines that allow an amature to shoot for England or even GB with an almost equal footing as the paid elite.
Larry Godfrey for example is an elite archer with a full time job.

Even making the top of GB though still puts you a few steps behind most paid archers on the world stage.
For some reason you rarely see the GB elite at anything but the really big events anyway.

What i do know is that where i shoot there are maybe only four or five serious amatures in the mens recurve with even fewer ladies and that covers about a quarter of the British Isles.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I would be classified as a "serious amateur". 

I picked up the Olympic recurve in 2005 and started competing in 2006. I trained 5 days a week, after work, on days off etc. 

I had a serious car wreck that took me out the year of the Beijing trials. I also had a 3 year break when i got married and had a son. I have battled target panic, clicker panic and intrusions of business and family. Obviously both of those are more important. 

When i first moved to Vegas, there were no Olympic recurve archers, no one shooting any USAA tournaments or FITAs etc. I was the only Olympic recurve Nevada entrant at USATs and Outdoor Nationals. 

I have spent the last 3 years fixing my form and target panic. I have in the past shot most of the USATs to go up the rolling rank, but can not afford to do it every year. 

The biggest win for me is now there is a thriving competitive USAA archery community of adults and kids from Vegas. Compound, barebow, Olympic recurve. When i started there wasnt a range to shoot in meters or that had correct targets. Now there are a number of archers who have their own targets and stands. Enough so that our JOAD kids can now shoot outdoor mail tournaments etc. 

it has really grown from my love of competing and promoting USAA events while shooting locally. 

Now we have a group of youth and adults that even travel to Irvine CA once a month to have lessons from Olympic medalists. 

When i attend a tournament, what i want is first to feel included. I am not on the National team, havent made one yet, and may never make one. But i want to feel i am just as viable to be there and shoot. I want a shirt or pin from the event as a token memory. I usually dont bring home a podium medal, so this is what i have to show for my effort. 

I want a practice area that isnt overcrowded, and a place to mingle as i see many many people i consider friends in the archery community and its a short time i can enjoy their company. 

I like having a dinner or meet n greet etc outside of the competition to hang out etc. Most of the archery community are great people i enjoy seeing, and just sitting in a hotel room is pretty boring. 

I like not being made to feel shoved out at a moments notice. ( example, two years ago, two guys asked me to be on a team with them to shoot the team rounds. For the first time i would be able to shoot on a team in a match, Yay! This was USAT or Outdoor nationals, i forget which. 

I paid i think $5 or $10 something to register. Then the tournament cancelled the team rounds due to weather or some other thing being delayed. Never saw the money back. Now personally i dont care about $5 or $10. Its a donation to archery, but that they just ccancelled and were like whatever. not important to see that everyone had a chance to donate or get refund. Made me feel i wasnt important since my team wasnt a National team. Gave me a bad taste for amateur team rounds. But a huge thanks to the two guys who invited me to join their team. I usually shoot so poorly, that i would not be an asset score wise. 


I compete for the joy of it. I shoot archery for the joy of it. Even i suck, or completely lose my form. I love the community at the tournaments. I remember one year at Nationals, something happened to Erika LaBrea's arrows. So everyone pitched in. I gave her 1 dozen X10 points, someone else got her arrows, someone else fletching and she shot the tournament. She did very well that year. After the tournament she gave me back the points with a thanks. 

That was a perfect example of what the archery community can be and what i enjoy about it. 

I also enjoy shooting with top level archers. I have been fortunate to shoot with everyone from Zach Garrett to Butch Johnson, Vic Wonderle, Brady Ellison and a host of international archers. As i am as much a fan as a competitor, it really connects me to the sport when i then watch a World cup match or Olympic / world champ match. A lot of times i have shot with those archers. 

I also enjoy competing still as i am a coach and it keeps me up on my toes. Gives me much better perspective. 

Also for my JOAD kids, when they see me struggle with my eyesight, or target panic, they also learn the perseverance, the dont give up, the dust yourself off and lose the self pity and earn it, the be a great sportsman even you dont do as well as you wanted. And they learn to be an archery ambassador. 

I have told a number of my kids who were struggling, that if you look in the dictionary for the word failure, you will find my picture, as i have found every conceivable way to fail at archery, but if you also look up the word success, you will also see my photo, because i never give up and win over my obstacles, and still have my love for the sport. 

And for me, competing in archery is that, ruling out all the failures to win. 

I started shooting when i was 42 which is over the hill for serious Olympic recurve. At least that is what i kept hearing. Funny, but i think my hearing is going with my eyesight. I still in my heart feel i can be competitive and make a national team one day. 



Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, I think you just summed up the essence of what it means to be a "serious amateur" athlete. Thanks for sharing. I especially appreciate the comments on what you look for at an event. I think a lot of people would say the same things.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> If you are someone who considers yourself a "serious amateur" athlete, I'd like to hear why and what that means to you personally. I'd also be interested in hearing what is important to you when you attend an event.
> 
> Within an organization like NFAA or USArchery or even IBO and ASA, there is always a wide spectrum from professional to beginner who are shooting. This makes it especially challenging, I think, for event organizers who are trying to accommodate such a broad skill set. I'm not sure which other sports face this same challenge. None come to mind but I'm sure they exist. As a "serious amateur" how do you feel event organizers should respond to the needs of athletes of different abilities?



Serious amateur here..I've been on barebow now since Nov '14. 
I definitely have a lot of work to do, and I am a serious student of the sport. I have scoured these forums for info on tuning, stringmaking, shot process, target panic, nearly every post that yourself, Ben, John, Martin make on technical info (I have a good memory). I take it very seriously and spread the info to barebow archers locally. Sometimes I take it too seriously... although I'm starting to lighten up on that since I realize that lots of great barebow archers have been shooting a lot longer than I, so I realize I should think about the long haul and enjoy the ride. I initially had some success, so I had high expectations of myself, then target panic set in, and I'm battling my way out of that.

Given the work and study I put in... I still have my job and my family mostly comes first before practice, but they accommodate me for tournaments because they know I love it. Because I'm busy, I don't always feel prepared for tournaments. Instead of getting in good practice for tournaments or trips, I find myself working harder before the tournament, so my time off work doesn't crater me when I get back. My kids are getting more involved in their academics and sports now too, so I volunteer as a swim official, and so I will need to learn to practice more efficiently with less time in the future.

Events for me are all about friendly competition with folks near my general skill level. I've had 8 hour field days come down to the last arrow between a few friends of mine. We push each other at our level. I emphasize *friends* too, since I've met some awesome like minded people, and the more times we all meet up at competitions, the more fun it gets. I like going to the competitions to learn and watch everyone's style. I think I'm taking all those pieces and finally putting them together for what works for me (especially string walking). All the top barebow archers are very approachable, and I really appreciate that, and I call the travel cost to go to events "tuition". 

What can the organizers do for the serious amateur? T-shirts! I'm proud that I work hard in this sport. I want a t-shirt, a cool one, specific to the event  like a marathoner or cross fitter. Especially if I train, take time off, travel to an event. Its good advertising too.

In terms of tournaments, do we really want to put "qualifying scores" out there? To me, it will kill the serious amateur. There are no qualifying FITA fields, or 60M outdoor targets for USAA. If I can afford (both time and cost), just let me play, so I can test myself  That's what I want.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I want a t-shirt, a cool one, specific to the event like a marathoner or cross fitter. Especially if I train, take time off, travel to an event. Its good advertising too.


Thats some great stuff right there. I never really thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. People who have trained for and completed a marathon want something to show for it, and they do get something to show for it. Or a "tough mudder" competition, etc. Those are worn with pride and are great advertising. 

As for qualifying scores, I don't think any serious amateur would have any problem shooting a qualifying score. In 2004, the qualifying score for the Olympic trials (yes, this would not be a new concept for USArchery) was just 600 for a double-70 round, or a 1200 fita. At least 78 men were able to shoot that score in the year prior to those trials, because that's how many showed up IIRC. And easily more than that shot it and just didn't attend the trials. So we're not talking a big score, but SOME score to keep certain events operating at a high level, and to give adults, JOAD kids and their coaches something to strive for. It also gives a great deal of credibility to the event and the achievement of the archer to be able to say "I qualified for ..." - finally, with the growth in archery, there will be no way to host all the archers who want to shoot Nationals or even USAT ranking events and qualifying scores will have to be put in place. It's really just a matter of time if the growth continues. I think if we had qualifying scores today, we would see the same number of entries but maybe a little better shooting on the low end because they had to practice enough to shoot the qualifying score. I don't think that's a bad thing if the level of competition overall was raised just a little bit.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I would consider myself a serious work in process. I took up archery after spending my salad years climbing rocks and mountain. I needed a competitive outlet and you get that with archery. There is no limit to the age you can compete if you take adequate care of your body. I practice hard, both at the range and the gym. Over the past couple of years I have recognized the need for increased fitness and have actually shifted many of my archery practice days to the gym. I used to practice hard six days/week. Now I shoot on the weekend and add shorter practices in during the week, around my gym schedule. The upside is that the increased fitness has me climbing again, at 60. I say I am a work in process because I am focused on trying to apply Olympic style form to barebow shooting. I am very focused on learning the form. I am disciplined in that goal, maybe too much so. I am often not prepared for tournaments because of my focus on form work. I don't spend enough time shooting the course. I decided to start competing about six years ago. I had a two year plan. Year 1, learn how to compete. Shoot tournaments and learn the logistics. Year 2, re-learn how to shoot. Upgrade my coach and get serious about developing my form. I am now in year 5 of my 1 year plan and running out of good years to reap the benefit. I may have to rethink my balance. Anyway, what I am looking for, in a nutshell, is more WA field in the US. There are only 2 in the US within driving distance from where I live, and they are in Arizona. Thanks to Julie Robinson, we have one coming to my archery club in May. It seems like all the interest is in 3D. Nobody wants to shoot 144 arrows for a FITA field or 224 + animal round for a 2 day NFAA field tournament. I think it would be awesome to see field in the Olympic games. It might bring more interest to the discipline if there was something at that level to shoot for. For me, I will be happy with Senior Olympics. In the meantime, I broke my hip in December. Had surgery after a ride with some nice paramedics. I am back on my feet, making good progress. Despite the prognosis of 12 months to recover full strength, I am heading to AZ for the field tournament next weekend. I shot a 14/14/animal NFAA field tournament 3 days after getting off crutches. I was in the gym while on crutches. That sounds like serious amateur to me. I just don't show it on the scoreboard...YET !!!


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i like to think that i was a serious amateur all throughout my 58 years as a golfer but have lately admitted to myself that i am no longer competitive in that sport due to my age(70) which has resulted in a dramatic loss of distance--30 yards plus-- just in the last 5 years...

although i never got on a national team i had beaten many of the team members in casual rounds and also beat the best golfer--imo--my country ever produced 2 weeks in a row when he was 54 and i was 45...71-76 and 76-77...and decided to quit whiie i was ahead..

this is a person who stayed an amateur his whole life, played in the Masters 3 times,won our national open against the pros, won our national amateur championshp more than a dozen times and represented our country in international competiton more times than i can count..

as such my golf nowadays is mostly for its social and health benefits plus a love for the game...

i became a serious Olympic style archer in 2003 at the age of 57 and knew that was too late to be on any national team but just wanted to be as best an archer as i can..

i was into archery as early as 9 years old--i started golfat age 12--with my bamboo and hickory bows and finally to a 53# black widow H1225 model but it was always instinctive shooting and small game hunting..

i got a korean coach--he was a member of their 1984 olympic team and finished 11th individually--and also got the best equipment i could afford..

practiced shooting 50-100 arrows 3-4x a week in my backyard 25m range and traveled 75 miles every weekend to an outdoor range shooting 300-400 per day..

i also put my golf on hold for almost 4 years during this period..

joined as many tournaments as i could including 3 nationals--all outdoor-- where i won a gold in the masters division in 2005 and also won a bunch of indoor events and a few non-sanctioned outdoor ones but never got to a level where i felt good enough to consider going to international events---i would have loved going to vegas and lancaster..

btw i also beat a few national team members and one future olympian in some head-to-head indoor matches..

i had an angioplasty procedure late 2007and a quad bypass in april 2009 --i was on the way to the airport to go to an archery coaching seminar--and the 2-3 month recovery period after put all my sports on hold..

went back to my golf after my surgery recovery but never got around to going full time back to archery until lately although i immediately got 26# limbs which i planned to use during my recovery period..

sold my heavier set-ups and now have the gear you see in my signature and plan to devote more time to archery--indoor and short distances--as my golf s#*ks nowadays anyway... 

so i guess i'm no longer a serious amateur----but i used to be..

PS: i was also quite active in our national archery associaltion as an adviser and a member of our POC(philippine olympic committee) special archery committee for 5 years---plus an official of our national golf foundation for 4 years..


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Serious Amateur. I started some years ago barebow then picked up Olympic recurve but the mental game wasn't there so I quit. I returned in 2014 because I had a mental game or was ready to put one together. And I figured at my age (65) I'd better shoot my brains out before I start to go down hill. 

Current goal is hit 70 meters etc and get on the Duel in the Desert Team. I have til October. 

when I practice for outdoors I'll actually score a full FITA round, or a full 900. I shoot two bows, both built around Hoyt Matrix risers One is 4 pounds lighter than the other and I call that one the "stretch band". I'll do about 30 arrows with that one to warm up, then pick up the competition bow. 

I love competing although I am limited to shoots I can get to within 1.5 hour drive, so anything local, the OTC, El Dorado Park in Long Beach. I'd like to to go everything if I could including state and national qualifiers but those are off the table at present. I practice a LOT (2250 arrows in February) I dropped a ton of money on Oakley frames and prescription glasses, and when other people are having lessons I listen to what our coach is saying. Cuz ya know I might learn something.

During the winter our group ( adult and JOAD kids who compete and are serious about competing) meet indoors on Monday at Willow Creek in Escondido with Alanna Dunaway who works pretty closely with Coach Lee (She's a compound shooter but a terrific recurve coach). Right now we're at the outdoor range in Poway on Monday evenings since outdoor season is upon us. 

I make a 50 mile round trip to Poway three times a week for the distance shooting. 

The other days I'm at 10 yards in my driveway By now EVERYBODY in Vista knows "oh YOU'RE that woman who shoots in her driveway!" 
It's always about form, form, form. And more form

Tuesdays I go to a friends house -- she can get 40 yards in her back yard. She's a very good barebow shooter and I'm getting her psyched up to compete more and come play with our Monday evening group. 

Since the OCT in Chula Vista was a venue for The Nationals, that's the "biggest" thing I've done in terms of the larger number of people around the country in my division (senior 60 women). Usually at the state level it could be only 1 other person or maybe 3 or 4 more . The Nationals had 16 women and I hung on to 5th place out of the 16 with a score I don't consider remotely adequate. But it was a ton of fun. And 

I shoot because it's an intellectual exercise in problem solving. And the zen. And the sound the bow makes. And the arc of a well shot arrow sailing towards 60 meters. And the physicality. And the striving to get better. And the knowledge that the world won't end if I don't hit the x every single time. 

I mountain bike hike, I've rock climbed -- I just prefer being outside with weather and wind and birdies and stuff like that. I can birdwatch between shots.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

BTW i've shot 90M competitively only once and shot 216 over 36 arrows but man!...watching the arrow flight at that distance and hitting the target butt--and occasionally hitting the gold or even red--is a thrill which is hard to describe....

....reminded me a bit of my 270 yard drives hit right down the middle of the fairway during my prime!!

decided after that that distance was just too much work for a 60+ year old archer and never shot a full fita again...


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> BTW i've shot 90M competitively only once and shot 216 over 36 arrows but man!...watching the arrow flight at that distance and hitting the target butt--and occasionally hitting the gold or even red--is a thrill which is hard to describe....
> 
> ....


I close my eyes after 60 meters and pray. agree re the money shot.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I make my living through Archery (teaching and running events) but I would classify myself more as a "serious amateur". 

I shoot Internationally.(won a few, lost a ton more) I have the facilities to practice daily a full Field, 3D and Target range outside my front door, although I sometimes find myself doing more upkeep of the 50 acres than actual shooting. I practice a lot not because I'm training for specific competition, just that love to shoot my bow, I'm at my most relaxed walking around the forest with my bow, I love the company and thrill of competition but seeing my arrow consistently find it's mark is what really floats my boat.

That feeling of knowing the arrow is going in the X as it's leaving the bow, it's the healthiest addiction in the world and I cannot get enough. My competitive goals are simple, I'm not trying to be the best in the world, just to be the best I can be.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

I guess, per the definition given I fall into that group. Before jumping into the questions a little history is appropriate. I'm an old fart. Picked up a bow july 2013 while just past the half century mark. Of course age doesn't necessarily guarantee common sense. I can be just as dumb as your average testosterone oozing 18 year old. First bow was a one piece 60 amo 45lb hunting bow. Idea was to fling some sticks to blow off steam and maybe hunt. After getting no where for a couple months I realized I'm not so macho after all. I picked up a 25lb sage to learn a good release. I thought that was my biggest fault because my hand was moving sideways versus back on release. I didn't realize the rest of my form was a mess til later on. A couple months later I picked up a 40lb takedown and began to get some level of accuracy (comparatively speaking). It was suggested, "hey why not shoot a tournament" to see if you're any good. Either someone did or maybe the voices in my head were getting too loud, one of the two. By this time the only lessons I had was a one day intro class and watching You-tube vidoes of Sung Park among others. 

That first tournament was an NFAA field round and I won my class. It wasn't because I was any good. Truth is, no one who was showed up and boy did I stink. Still, I was bitten with the excitement. From then on I shot a lot and tried to learn as much as I could talking to people who knew their stuff and just being observant of people's shooting trying to learn what caused misses as well as the good shots. I became especially intrigued over the mental aspects of the game. A good dose of TP will do that and I still fight it to this day. December 2014 I got some lessons at Performance Archery here in San Diego. Gayla taught me how to get back tension and other important attributes. She also suggested a book, "with winning in mind". A great book that I credit with landing me the 2nd place spot at the 3d nationals last year. After 4 or 5 lessons I jumped back in the fray. For the next year or so I shot trad but there was a nagging interest in OR. The potential level of accuracy is what got me curious although I used to poke fun at that whole genre. Hank may remember some of that at the last sectional. I went ahead and tried it out towards the end of last year. Shot a Hunter round in Nov and won it. Again, no one of note showed up so it wasn't a grand achievement. Dumb luck strikes again is more like it. Since then it's been a challenge trying to find someone to shoot against since few if any OR shooters show up at Balboa for SD archer tournaments. Surprising since the OTC in chula vista is right down the street and no one from there ever makes an appearance. It's a great way to get some competition experience and we don't bite, I swear!  I did shoot the indoor nationals at the OTC although I did it modern longbow. A real sweet place and squeaky clean. I kind of wish I made the effort to go shoot there more often but we're getting ready to move to Colorado. 

It's the excitement and challenge of it that sparks my interest. I've switched back and forth between trad and OR for indoor and it's only been very recently that my OR score is besting my trad scores. Indoor has been my biggest problem which is why I'm so focused on it. I lose attention pretty quick and it's maddening trying to stay centered on the same small target for 45 arrows. I prefer field rounds since it's in a constant state of flux and each target is like a new opportunity. Even 3D is easier in some regards although a shiny OR feels a little out of place on a 3D range. Won the one 3D I shot in OR although the score was just shy of 80% which to me indicates I have a very long way to go but that's a big part of the fun. More mountain to climb and more reasons to keep chucking those sticks chasing perfect. 

The last question. "What's important at an event". There is usually a major item I'm concentrating on. Like the last one, another nfaa field round. It was all about keeping the routine fluid without any pauses or hesitations in the shot cycle. Didn't go according to plan on most targets but did manage it a few times so that's progress. If I said score didn't matter I'd be lying. I admit that frailty. I have no problem losing to a superior shooter. It demonstrates room for improvement and if he can do it so can I and gives me more reason to practice. Like Indoor, Arsi kicks my butt so I need to work a lot harder on that.  BTW Arsi, you missed a fun round of anti-aircraft and submarine hunting this evening.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Dave/Ranchoarcher: I used to shoot at Performance a lot when I lived closer. And I'll see you at the 900 in May that SD Archers is having. (I think I was the only woman last year,  if you haven't already moved to Colorado.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Pondering all the excellent recent discussion on professional vs. amateur archers, US Archery Team expansion, Barebow formats for Nationals, etc. has me thinking more and more about the people who participate in these events.
> 
> There is a broad spectrum in archery, ranging from full-time sponsored (or outright paid) professional who pays their mortgage with their bow, and the casual recreational archer who may or may not practice before showing up to an event.
> 
> ...


"Why" ... I'm a 'serious amateur' athlete in that, ironically, I do my best to take a 'professional' approach to my competition preparation. Make a studied plan, do the work, show up prepared, and stay disciplined within my current abilities during the heat of competition. My dad used to say "your talent is up to God, your preparation and performance is up to you". God didn't give me the talent or the means that He gave Tom Brady, but I can still approach my competitions with the same thorough, thoughtful and disciplined preparation that Brady does, and conduct myself afterwards more along the lines of Brady, not Cam Newton. Quite frankly, I think being a 'serious amateur' is a higher calling than being a literal professional: a professional's primary motive has to be winning and money; my primary motive is to see how close I can get to my absolute ceiling of capability. My journey and accomplishments of knowledge acquisition/preparation/performance are a painting/a self portrait to reflect on and take pride in and/or learn from. My competitors, as a professional, are my enemies to be gamed and crushed. My competitors, as a serious amateur, are my partners, helping to motivate me to be the most prepared and capable competitor I'm capable of being, and celebrating all of us in our effort and joy of the doing. At my age, I'm much more thrilled with having partners, not enemies.

"What that means to me personally" ... To have an athletic goal and such a tangible visible pathway toward that goal; the opportunity to develop the ability to compete on a national level; the chances to compete side by side (and compare oneself in such close proximity to) against the best archers in the world; to have an athletic endeavor that, even at my age, offers complete engagement mentally and physically in a test of preparation and wills, and having it be an athletic endeavor that attracts such fine and humble and hardworking participants with whom to associate ... it would be hard to overstate how grateful and impactful this sport has been for me.

At the encouragement of Steve Overbeck and John Magera, I started coaching on the side 3 years ago, started a JOAD club, now have a dozen or more students who regularly compete and make waves at the state level (winning or placing), and some who are now competing in national events and either on podiums or marching firmly toward podiums - the satisfaction of passing on some of what I've learned (tuning, shot philosophy, competitive prep) to other dedicated archers is a gift for me, and will be a retirement career/endeavor. So, again, being a serious amateur athlete in this sport has been hugely impactful and beneficial for me. 

"What I want from an event" ... I want the event to treat every participant the same, and I want the event to expect participants to be competent and prepared. And, like Chris, I want outdoor tournaments to have practice range facilities (or the competition venue to have adequate access) that are plentiful and accessible to everyone who shows up early, not just enough bales to be swarmed and hoarded by the elites.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Wow, you all are amazing. I always thought that I was a serious amateur. Just because I eat, sleep, and think archery all the time and try to orient any free time that I have towards archery outside of work, family, and church, I am just an amateur within the amateur groups. I am so envious of you guys in how much time you get to spend with your love of archery. All I can say is just wow. Time to take my little krill self back to my little rain puddle on the street.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Pete,

I'm just trying to figure out what kind of archery shoes to wear.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't know about the "serious amateur" stuff, but I'll tell you what I want at an event. Toilets, and more of them! When you're my age, and you have a problem like I do, when you gotta go, you go!

And another thing! In all the years I've been attending tournaments, I've come to the conclusion that archers receive the worse toilet training of any group in the world. I mean come on people, if you can drill four x's on the bunny target, you can sure enough "hit the hole." Good grief, what's up with that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Poky - LOL. I'm not sure how old you are, but last summer at Nationals in Decatur, I had the bathroom locations pretty well pegged! ha, ha.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> If you are someone who considers yourself a "serious amateur" athlete, I'd like to hear why and what that means to you personally. I'd also be interested in hearing what is important to you when you attend an event.


The term 'serious' makes me think of someone who doesn't show emotion on the line. Maybe robotic-non-emotional archery is the way to succeed, but I love feeling! That's what it's about for me. The most important thing is the feeling I get while shooting. The feeling that I can make every shot mine and have the confidence knowing that I can execute it. There's no such thing as invincibility in this world, but if the delivery of a perfect shot makes you feel untouchable for juuuustttt one second, that's all it takes for you to want more of it. To be honest that’s what I crave more than any medal, more than any X! I'm learning that archery influences personal growth and hones self discipline too. I don't know what I got myself into when I first stepped into an archery range..

Maybe that's not a very "serious amateur" way to think.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I'd also be interested in hearing what is important to you when you attend an event.


Reasonable entry fee prices and making sure field is set up right.



limbwalker said:


> Within an organization like NFAA or USArchery or even IBO and ASA, there is always a wide spectrum from professional to beginner who are shooting. This makes it especially challenging, I think, for event organizers who are trying to accommodate such a broad skill set. I'm not sure which other sports face this same challenge. None come to mind but I'm sure they exist. As a "serious amateur" how do you feel event organizers should respond to the needs of athletes of different abilities?


Golf? Handicap works for them, why shouldn't we use it for archery - a close relative to golf? Having division be based on a handicap bracket instead of age and gender would simplify a lot of things. Sounds a little too far away from the current archery structure though. :tongue:


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

When you shoot 3 USATs and Outdoor Nationals, indoor Nationals and Vegas all in the same year, spending about $6000-$8000 in travel expenses. That is when you cross the line into Serious Amateur. Qualifing for the rolling rank is not a cheap endeavor.


Meaning not on a National team where those expenses are paid for you.

Chris


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Wow that would mean maybe single digit % representing serious amateurs! Should there be another NFAA category created to separate serious amateur from very serious amateurs?


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

No, more like, who spends the most money as being the qualifier. I'm sure he was just being funny. Serious is what goes on between the ears, not what comes out of your wallet.


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## dtirell (Jan 2, 2004)

Despite the last few posts I would still consider my self to be a serious amateur ( :smile: ). 

When I was first introduced to archery (more years ago than I like to think about) it was all about hunting. At the time I did hunt but I really did prefer to just shoot the bow. Over the years I would have periods where I would pick up the bow and then life would invade.

In 2112 a lull in work travel brought me back to the range and I met a group who did compete in tournaments. As I worked to try to reach their scores in practice, they worked to convince me to enter a tournament. 

Well, while I have always loved archery, combining it with my competitive side took it to a whole new level. Standing on the line competing with much better archers not only showed me what was possible but fueled my competitive spirit which drives my desire to see just how good I can be. Additionally, as noted by others, these better archers were more than willing to help me improve my own game.

So I started getting much more serious in my approach. Working on specific aspects of my game and slowly seeing progress. Like granit14 this included researching online to discover what my self training got right and what it got wrong. Additionally using forums like this one to follow the scores of better archers to keep pushing my idea of what is possible.

During this time I was still shooting a compound (BHFSL) since I was still using my old hunting bow. In 2014 I decided to try the NFAA indoor nationals. Being able to shoot on a line with a group of other archers all shooting the same style showed me just how much I wanted to have real head to head competition. So much so that I didn't take my compound out of the case after returning home and shifted to NFAA trad to join our small but growing group of trad/barebow shooters.

At first there were a few local archers who were head and shoulders above the rest. But there was a second group of archers pushing each other (and chasing the top dogs) who continued to get better and better. Up to the point where at any given indoor competition you would be hard pressed to get more than even odds in Vegas as to who would win.

Also, knowing I tend to learn faster while helping others with the same skills, I started working on my coaching certifications (currently a level 2, waiting for a level 3 course) as well as volunteering with my archery club's public instruction program and our local JOAD/AA group.

So what do I look for when attending the bigger (regional and national) events, the same things that lit the fire in the first place - the ability to compete against a larger number of other like minded archers. As well as to watch the best highlight what is possible and fuel my desire to get better - and (and this is something fairly unique to archery) to benefit from those same top shooters willingness to help me get better. 

Limbwalker, I will add that I understand your comment about having qualifying scores to be able to register for national level events. It would add to the prestige and raise the bottom level scores. However as my schedule (and other life requirements) limit my ability to travel regularly for events, it would be a shame if (as is the case in some sports) there would be a requirement to travel to the qualifiers which may reduce the number of serious amateurs who can attend as they may only be able to afford a single "big travel tournament" a year.

Oh, and I also agree with granite14 on the T-shirts.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Take my posts for what its worth, 

Anyone who doesnt factor in tournament travel costs when addressing the term Serious Amateur is missing a large portion of it. 


Chris


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

ranchoarcher said:


> Serious is what goes on between the ears, not what comes out of your wallet.


Which if sincere should manifest itself into action. In other words it is the amount of commitment not how much or how little money you have. Money is never the question or the excuse. Giving 100% is the only question. This is usually the measure between the Champions and the pretenders..... Giving 100%........... and yes this can also mean committing 100% of your own money to real your goals. 



-R&B


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Purpose*



limbwalker said:


> Pondering all the excellent recent discussion on professional vs. amateur archers, US Archery Team expansion, Barebow formats for Nationals, etc. has me thinking more and more about the people who participate in these events.
> 
> There is a broad spectrum in archery, ranging from full-time sponsored (or outright paid) professional who pays their mortgage with their bow, and the casual recreational archer who may or may not practice before showing up to an event.
> 
> ...


You're a good man Limbwalker. This forum is lucky to have someone with so much passion and good will. 

We are very different in so many ways and I think that is good. The older I get the more I understand my true nature. I'm very introverted almost selfish (LOL). That is why I don't post much. Introverts, as I'm studying and learning, have their own personal world view and value system. It is like autism in a way.

I just shoot my bows. I enjoy/love shooting my bows. I also like committing myself to things. I have a passion for cycling. People often see me around on my fancy second hand race-bikes and always ask if I race. My answer is always "no... .. that would ruin everything". I just love the concept and feeling of riding road race bicycles. I just ride. I think suffering on a bicycle is beautiful (LOL). 

Archery is the same for me......... I just shoot. It is very uncomfortable for me when it comes to attention or recognition. I shun attention. I'm not motivated by recognition. I'm not into labels or T-shirts to represent to others who I am or what I'm about. I let my technique do that (LOL). I'm not very good by the way. I have expensive sponsor shooter jerseys with my name on them and I don't like wearing them. I know and see many archers that place sponsorship and wearing a fancy jersey with logos and their name on them as their primary goal (LOL). It is always personal for me. Maybe this attitude is why as an athlete I have never reached my full potential. The beauty for me is applying myself. Out of this I have found personal success. So when I travel to a tournament it is about seeing how good I can be and the adventure of travel. It is never about measuring myself against others or even being recognized by others. If I choose to compete at Nationals there is no real expectation as far as what I think the organizers need to do to cater to me. They just need to do their job and organize (LOL). It is and will always be about me and the target when I attend a tournament. I try to teach this to my students. So I think I represent the other side of the coin in a way. I think I am more of a spiritual type archer. I've committed myself to the sport however I expect very little in return. Flying arrows and the opportunity to commit myself to something positive is enough for me. This approach isn't glamours but I think it is sustainable. 

I learned this from Coach Kim Hyung Tak. "Don't let unrealistic expectations get in the way of your enjoyment of archery".

I shoot everyday as a matter of a way of life.......... something I just do because I enjoy/love it.


My 2 Cents

-Cheers 

-R&B Life Long Student Of The Game


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good stuff R&B. Yes, certainly as many reasons to compete as there are individuals competing.

I do like the Coach Kim quote. That is very wise.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

well at 62 years of age been shoot`n archery since around 6 or 7 years of age, dad would not give us guns tell we were much older ,so with bows and arrows we shot lots of things ,so my seriousness was always hunting,sure I shot archery shoots got some plagues , medals and some paper awards, my son was a extremely talented archer,son is just a natural 300`s all the time 57-58-59- 60 Xs came easy for him, but I always told him get a real job archery is a poor way to make a living, we still shoot winter archery leagues, son generally every year is the top archer,with a 11 year old target too, but he does not get serious anymore just likes to have fun with dad. but we both get very serious with our bows when we head for the mountains in the fall and those elk are bugling. we are the other side of archery> targets for fun/ serious bowhunters forever. so which ever direction you go in archery its all for fun and have great time doing it,Pete53


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I've hesitated to post because I don't consider what I do 'serious'. I sure spend a lot of time at it though. I really like to compete. It is the end expression of all the arrows I've put down range. Tournaments are the icing on the cake. How good is my technique? How mentally tough am I for that competition? How well have I prepared? Tournaments expose all the holes in the stories we tell ourselves about the state of our archery. And it sure is a hell of a lot of fun to go head to head with buddies!

As an aside about serious and archery, I sure hope Masters USAT does not destroy the unique vibe we have at tournaments. Getting a USAT shirt is way down on my priority list, all though elevating Masters shooters on the recognition scale is laudable.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

R&B said:


> Which if sincere should manifest itself into action. In other words it is the amount of commitment not how much or how little money you have. Money is never the question or the excuse. Giving 100% is the only question. This is usually the measure between the Champions and the pretenders..... Giving 100%........... and yes this can also mean committing 100% of your own money to real your goals.
> 
> 
> 
> -R&B


 That's kind of what I meant except for the 100% financial. In this day and age when scores are available real time or easily found online anyone who shoots a local event can gauge their progress against the top pros with a few mouse clicks. The results on the target face demonstrate the effort regardless where that target is located. The only difference is Joe Shmo shooting a 500+ field event at his club will get fewer accolades from strangers. That increased admiration isn't worth much. 

I spoke to one individual who's very well known and he told me archery nearly cost him his marriage because of his over involvement. I took that as a wake up call since I was beginning to head down the same path. This is a hobby and thankfully I'm not willing to look my family in the eye and tell them archery means more to me than they do. The person that does that by any means doesn't deserve to have one. If a person has no family and gobs of money to waste, sure, why not. Anybody else has to put things in perspective and apply common sense and balance. They shouldn't be judged inferior for it. Not only that, the top pros in archery don't make squat. The "pro pay" for many of us is less than what we earn making it kind of silly to even consider.


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## dtirell (Jan 2, 2004)

chrstphr said:


> Take my posts for what its worth,
> 
> Anyone who doesnt factor in tournament travel costs when addressing the term Serious Amateur is missing a large portion of it.
> 
> ...


I understand the concept and agree consideration of travel costs is a factor. But having been around youth sports for a very long time, I have seen the mentality of "if you are not willing to spend the big bucks and commit your life to this sport then you just aren't serious about doing it" drive off way too many outstanding athletes.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

toj said:


> In the UK most archers in this bracket chase ranking points or clasifications (alot chase both)
> I think those looking at ranking scores are only really looking to better themselves, to some just being in the table is enough.
> More weight seems to be put on classifications as these have been around longer and can still include the old imperial rounds TO's seem to love so much.
> These are worked out as a percentage of previous years scores at record status shoots for example
> ...


Would you have a link to the ranking matrix?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dtirell said:


> I understand the concept and agree consideration of travel costs is a factor. But having been around youth sports for a very long time, I have seen the mentality of "if you are not willing to spend the big bucks and commit your life to this sport then you just aren't serious about doing it" drive off way too many outstanding athletes.



That wasnt my point. My point is you can see many serious amateurs at numerous USATs and such. I can name 30 or so that easily spend 6k-8k per year on travel alone to major tournaments. That also is a commitment to the sport.

It is a large factor in archers shooting recreational and shooting seriousLy to compete nationally.

And it does stop many from continuing to shoot national events and competing. 

Chriz


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

And I don't think restricted funds means one is "recreational". to me a recreational shooter doesn't even WANT to go to a major shoot, they might be happy at some local club outing or just dabbling here and there.a They're not really figuring out how to get better And yes competing is a very critical part of this equation because that's where the rubber meets the road -- what did I learn from this experience, if anything.. 

Which I suppose brings us to the question of just what exactly is a recreational shooter? That's my definition but what's everybody else's?


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I really don't care too much for the word "amateur" when it comes to describing myself or those other archers who take their passion seriously. The word denotes a lower level of knowledge, compared to a professional , that in many cases doesn't apply in archery. There are many non-professional archers who know as much or even more about this craft as an USAT archer. An "amateur" to me is a beginner. That is an amateur.


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Well, I have two state licenses that indicate I am a professional in my field and get paid for that skill and knowledge. I have put in as much time and effort into archery but haven't earned a penny. My ego takes some satisfaction from what skill and winning I have done. I agree with erose about the word amateur. 

I know I cannot see my life without archery. I know I want to improve till I age out. I know that some of the grandest folks I know I have met through archery. I know archery teaches me humility and that it is good to be humble...it is good to love. Above all, I believe we take with us our memories to another place when we die. I plan on having more adventures and creating more of those memories. Archers, to the line...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

erose said:


> I really don't care too much for the word "amateur" when it comes to describing myself or those other archers who take their passion seriously. The word denotes a lower level of knowledge, compared to a professional , that in many cases doesn't apply in archery. There are many non-professional archers who know as much or even more about this craft as an USAT archer. An "amateur" to me is a beginner. That is an amateur.


You'll probably prefer (I know I do) the original meaning and origins of the word which have a much more positive connotation .. 

1784, "one who has a taste for (something)," from French amateur "lover of," from Latin amatorem (nominative amator) "lover," agent noun from amatus, past participle of amare "to love"


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

ranchoarcher said:


> That's kind of what I meant except for the 100% financial. In this day and age when scores are available real time or easily found online anyone who shoots a local event can gauge their progress against the top pros with a few mouse clicks. The results on the target face demonstrate the effort regardless where that target is located. The only difference is Joe Shmo shooting a 500+ field event at his club will get fewer accolades from strangers. That increased admiration isn't worth much.


I don't think we see things quite the same way because my outlook is a bit different. For me it comes down to the contributions made regarding a Ham and Eggs breakfast (LOL). "The chicken is involved but the pig is committed." This quote comes from Martina Navratilova. 

Shooting a 300 in League is not the same as shooting a 300 in Las Vegas. The conditions are very very different. Scores and conditions are objective.



> I spoke to one individual who's very well known and he told me archery nearly cost him his marriage because of his over involvement. I took that as a wake up call since I was beginning to head down the same path. This is a hobby and thankfully I'm not willing to look my family in the eye and tell them archery means more to me than they do. The person that does that by any means doesn't deserve to have one. If a person has no family and gobs of money to waste, sure, why not. Anybody else has to put things in perspective and apply common sense and balance. They shouldn't be judged inferior for it. Not only that, the top pros in archery don't make squat. The "pro pay" for many of us is less than what we earn making it kind of silly to even consider.


We have very different views on family and money. That is OK. There is no real right or wrong on these matters. To each his own. Here is my long winded take:

There are many marriages that make 100% financial commitments on the behalf of loved ones. If your son or daughter wanted to go to Medical School are you willing to commit 100% to see them pursue their dreams? If I had a wife and she was a passionate singer and wanted to see where her abilities would take her...... I'm all in!! I'm willing to make a commitment to see her happy. As a team in love we should be able share in the journey with no expectations or regrets. You should do things because you like doing them not because there is a big pay day in the end. Chasing money isn't the greatest career move. Those who use money as their primary motivation or excuse are usually not very good at anything. Those consumed with being the best tend to end up in a good place even if it is only piece of mind. Limbwalker is the perfect example of making a personal commitment to excellence. From what I have read on this forum he was just trying to learn all he could about shooting a Freestyle recurve so he would make a better JOAD coach. I'm pretty sure he had no intentions of doing this because it would make him a millionaire (LOL). 

Vittorio, Michele and Carla Frangelli are great example love and support. For every top pro archer who is married I pretty sure their spouses are all in with not expectations other than their spouse is doing something they love. One of my favorite stories is of Lewis Hamilton the Formula 1 race car driver and his father. 


-All For One.......... One For All! 

-Arm chair quarterbacking is easy ........... 100% commitment to being the best is very hard. 


-Cheers
-R&B


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Being Connected*



tigersdad said:


> Well, I have two state licenses that indicate I am a professional in my field and get paid for that skill and knowledge. I have put in as much time and effort into archery but haven't earned a penny. My ego takes some satisfaction from what skill and winning I have done. I agree with erose about the word amateur.
> 
> I know I cannot see my life without archery. I know I want to improve till I age out. I know that some of the grandest folks I know I have met through archery. I know archery teaches me humility and that it is good to be humble...it is good to love. Above all, I believe we take with us our memories to another place when we die. I plan on having more adventures and creating more of those memories. Archers, to the line...



I like this!!! :thumbs_up 




-R&B


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*Labels*



erose said:


> I really don't care too much for the word "amateur" when it comes to describing myself or those other archers who take their passion seriously. The word denotes a lower level of knowledge, compared to a professional , that in many cases doesn't apply in archery. There are many non-professional archers who know as much or even more about this craft as an USAT archer. An "amateur" to me is a beginner. That is an amateur.


I've been called worse (LOL). No big deal. If we take words too seriously we ruin everything. 

For me it is not what other call me or perceive me to be but what I believe and think of myself. 


-R&B


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Would you have a link to the ranking matrix?


They should all be here, including a list of criteria. http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/tournaments/tournament_rankings.php


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Erose, I think amateur - when applied to sports - really just means someone who isn't making their living from the sport. That's all. It's not disrespectful, and at least in some people's minds (Bobby Jones in golf as an example) it's a more sincere and honest approach to the sport.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

tigersdad said:


> Well, I have two state licenses that indicate I am a professional in my field and get paid for that skill and knowledge. I have put in as much time and effort into archery but haven't earned a penny. My ego takes some satisfaction from what skill and winning I have done. I agree with erose about the word amateur.
> 
> I know I cannot see my life without archery. I know I want to improve till I age out. I know that some of the grandest folks I know I have met through archery. I know archery teaches me humility and that it is good to be humble...it is good to love. Above all, I believe we take with us our memories to another place when we die. I plan on having more adventures and creating more of those memories. Archers, to the line...


Cool post. I only posit that one does not age out of the sport, or improvement. We adapt to the circumstances and move on.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

R&B said:


> We have very different views on family and money. That is OK. There is no real right or wrong on these matters. To each his own. Here is my long winded take:
> 
> There are many marriages that make 100% financial commitments on the behalf of loved ones. If your son or daughter wanted to go to Medical School are you willing to commit 100% to see them pursue their dreams? If I had a wife and she was a passionate singer and wanted to see where her abilities would take her...... I'm all in!! I'm willing to make a commitment to see her happy. As a team in love we should be able share in the journey with no expectations or regrets. You should do things because you like doing them not because there is a big pay day in the end. Chasing money isn't the greatest career move. Those who use money as their primary motivation or excuse are usually not very good at anything. Those consumed with being the best tend to end up in a good place even if it is only piece of mind. Limbwalker is the perfect example of making a personal commitment to excellence. From what I have read on this forum he was just trying to learn all he could about shooting a Freestyle recurve so he would make a better JOAD coach. I'm pretty sure he had no intentions of doing this because it would make him a millionaire (LOL).
> 
> ...


 Coincidentally I do have a son in med school. To do what you're saying, the 100% commitment to some venture also requires taking a whole lot of risk for most people. If some guy is wiling to risk the family home and everything else to chase an archery dream whether the wife is willing or not doesn't have much to lose or isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. I weigh risk to reward as part of my work on a daily basis. Truth is, in any situation where the person supposedly put it all on the line, they didn't really risk it all. The wife is working paying the bills in the mean time or there is some source of income covering the cost until they either make it or the dream dies. Chasing money is the primary reason for a career. The usual problem is people picking one that isn't pleasant which results in not doing that well which is reflected in their income from it. They all go hand in hand and if someone isn't going to be paid they won't show up to work much longer. The moral of the story is if someone doesn't spend as much as someone else on travel they shouldn't be called pretenders or looked down on. You didn't but people's situations are unique and passing judgment without knowing what they are discloses something else.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

ranchoarcher said:


> The moral of the story is if someone doesn't spend as much as someone else on travel they shouldn't be called pretenders or looked down on. You didn't but people's situations are unique and passing judgment without knowing what they are discloses something else.


I did not call anyone a pretender or look down on anyone. 

I implied commitment to national tournaments and travel expenses as a qualifier for serious amateur vs a recreational archer. 

Someone who shoots 100 arrows a week and local league shoot once a year is a recreational archer. The thread was titled Serious Amateur Athlete. That is someone training to compete nationally or regionally but is not funded or paid. 

Thats is someone who goes beyond recreational shooting. In my opinion, that is someone who shoots more than three times a week. Shoots 200-300 arrows per session, takes lessons occassionally from a coach, and travels more than 2 hours to shoot tournaments. They usually have a target at home set up so they can shoot daily. Many have their own FITA legal target and stand. 

If you are USAA, you go to two or three USAT tournaments.

If you are NFAA, then you shoot Louisville, Lancaster and maybe Vegas, or you shoot several 3D / field tournaments. 

I never said anyone was a pretender if they didnt persue shooting competitively at a national level. 

But there is a big difference from a serious amateur athlete and a recreational archer, and travel costs are also a part of it. 

This thead was talking about older archers and TRAINING. I havent met any recreational archers who train. Loving archery and enjoyjng shooting is not the same as training to compete, regardless of age.


Sorry people got offended because they dont spend on travel expenses and felt that defined them as an archer. It doesnt, it defines them as a competitor. 

I always tell my JOAD kids, half of winning a tournament is showing up. And that is true, mentally and physically. 

And cost is in the physical part. 

There are many college kids who manage to make a number of national tournaments, just as there are many archers who are not rich and also seem to find a way to be there. To use costs as an excuse is just that, an excuse.

Im not goig to post in this thread any further as it seems people are taking my opinion as insulting. 


Chris


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

chrstphr said:


> I did not call anyone a pretender or look down on anyone.
> 
> I implied commitment to national tournaments and travel expenses as a qualifier for serious amateur vs a recreational archer.
> 
> ...


Personally, this was the post I was waiting for as a lurker - a concrete definition of what an "amateur athlete" is, particularly as distinct from a "recreational archer" (and no, I won't go into analogies with the knock-down/drag-outs that unceasingly go on in the compound forums on similar matters  ). So far from being offensive, this to me is a significant point of clarification. 

I meet none of the conditions in your statement at this point, so I'll just continue reading. Just wanted to point out that I for one appreciate this post and hope you continue...

DM


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DM, it's more complicated than that. Chris is offering one definition of a serious amateur, but I would suggest there are more ways to define it than that. Clearly, the amateur athlete who commits to multiple national events every year has some significant financial "skin" in the game, but I could easily name names of many people who do this every year, and yet do not do what I consider "training" of any sort. They practice, and because they can afford it or have made it a priority for their budget, they attend events like Vegas or Nationals or a USAT event for other reasons than to truly compete.

To me, a serious amateur athlete is one who is dedicated to competing at the highest level they can at the moment, every time they show up. This includes taking their craft seriously, studying and training long before they ever travel. 

Every year, there is a "breakout" archer who just suddenly appears on the scene because they have been training and shooting away from the more well known events, but still training nonetheless. Fawn Girard - so far this year - is my pick for the surprise (although not to anyone who knew her) "serious amateur" of the year. At least, of the indoor season.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

I didn't mean to suggest that that was the only definition - just that I was gratified to see at least one definition finally concretely laid out in the thread. I was almost there myself on the compound until about a month ago, tho I'd have fit into your definition a bit better (I only lost about $200 in tournament entry fees this year due to injury, not 1000's..  ). Now that I've thrown my compounds away and am nursing the right elbow, it's back to n00b status for me, (10 arrows a week or so into my bale at home). Fortunately, at my age, it's not the first time I've had to go all the way back to square one and it won't be the last. 

So I'm pretty keen on the whole idea of this thread as I start completely over again with my W&W and 14# limbs, etc. Almost like being a kid again lol! But great thread and I love everything everyone's posting, if that's worth anything....

DM


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> I did not call anyone a pretender or look down on anyone.
> 
> I implied commitment to national tournaments and travel expenses as a qualifier for serious amateur vs a recreational archer.
> 
> ...


 Wasn't tyring to get your goat. Your right, it wasn't you who said pretender. My apologies. Save the amount of travel I'm well within the scope of your definition including the in the yard range and daily arrow count. Currently it's 40 yards max but Im about to get an upgrade to 150 or so and an indoor basement range of 25 yards at the new place in CO. All with the wife's blessing no less. Anyhow, the people that can and want to go and are within a certain financial/obligations spectrum do go. Under an amount can't but over a certain threshold can't either since the more you make the more responsibilities go with it and consequently time gets eaten up. Maybe the sport would get a boost if Wheaties would put someone on their box but in any event there are plenty of people I've seen with tremendous skill that can't get out there for what ever reason but it certainly isn't lack of want.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> When you shoot 3 USATs and Outdoor Nationals, indoor Nationals and Vegas all in the same year, spending about $6000-$8000 in travel expenses. That is when you cross the line into Serious Amateur. Qualifing for the rolling rank is not a cheap endeavor.
> 
> 
> Meaning not on a National team where those expenses are paid for you.
> ...


So how fat your wallet is determines whether or not you're serious about your Archery competition?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> I did not call anyone a pretender or look down on anyone.
> 
> I implied commitment to national tournaments and travel expenses as a qualifier for serious amateur vs a recreational archer.
> 
> ...


Agree with your definition, Chris.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> DM, it's more complicated than that. Chris is offering one definition of a serious amateur, but I would suggest there are more ways to define it than that. Clearly, the amateur athlete who commits to multiple national events every year has some significant financial "skin" in the game, but I could easily name names of many people who do this every year, and yet do not do what I consider "training" of any sort. They practice, and because they can afford it or have made it a priority for their budget, they attend events like Vegas or Nationals or a USAT event for other reasons than to truly compete.
> 
> To me, a serious amateur athlete is one who is dedicated to competing at the highest level they can at the moment, every time they show up. This includes taking their craft seriously, studying and training long before they ever travel.
> 
> Every year, there is a "breakout" archer who just suddenly appears on the scene because they have been training and shooting away from the more well known events, but still training nonetheless. Fawn Girard - so far this year - is my pick for the surprise (although not to anyone who knew her) "serious amateur" of the year. At least, of the indoor season.


Boom! Nailed it!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'd put weekly arrow count ahead of $ spent every time. 

This goes back to my "trad" days when I knew a lot of very dedicated and serious traditional archers/bowhunters. I was one of them. We shot year-round, because we loved to shoot and because we felt we owed it to the game we pursued. It was easy to see who the "serious" amateur traditional archers were, and those who were just tinkering or who just wanted to be known as a "traditional" shooter. The serious ones shot all year. And the same is true with serious amateur target archers. They are shooting year-round, and during the competitive season, getting in hundreds of arrows/week.

I would love to know how many thousands of arrows I shot with an Olympic bow before I ever registered for my first national competition.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

R&B said:


> I've been called worse (LOL). No big deal. If we take words too seriously we ruin everything.
> 
> For me it is not what other call me or perceive me to be but what I believe and think of myself.
> 
> ...


That is not the point. Words mean something, and in today's understanding of amateur it means novice. There are a lot of archers out there that don't make a buck off of their knowledge, but wouldn't and shouldn't be considered novices, or for that matter amateurs. 

Seriously who would you like to work on your house? A amateur electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc., or a professional? Obviously a professional. The difference in archery is that there isn't enough money in the sport to make that distinction, and there are too many people who are willing to share their knowledge without asking for a dime. 

My point being is the term amateur should be dropped from the discussion. Why? Because amateurs are treated much differently than professionals.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Erose, I think amateur - when applied to sports - really just means someone who isn't making their living from the sport. That's all. It's not disrespectful, and at least in some people's minds (Bobby Jones in golf as an example) it's a more sincere and honest approach to the sport.


I think that it would be fine in many other sports, because the percentages are there. In football for example you have what 32 teams of around 60 paid professionals? Basketball, soccer, baseball there is significantly more professionals, so the percentages are higher. In archer you have what? Maybe 20-30 archers in this country getting paid enough to make a living. Then you throw in the fact of all the archers who don't make a dime shooting on the same national stage as the professionals. You don't have that occurring in other sports. Amateur football players are not competing against professional players unless it is in the backyard.

Don't get me wrong I'm not taking it as an insult, I'm pointing out that amateur is not a good term in our sport.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I guess my point being is archery in this country is a hobby sport, where the far majority of archers who compete even on a national level are not paid. And let's be honest those very few archers that do get paid, most of us probably would turn down any offer from USAA, because the salary offered wouldn't be worth it. So in my opinion comparing and contrasting professional/amateur in archery doesn't really say much.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose, you're letting this upset you a little too much.

I started this thread to hear from those who consider themselves "serious" amateur archers. I wanted to know what makes them tick, and what they want from their competitions. Don't get hung up on definitions.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> erose, you're letting this upset you a little too much.
> 
> I started this thread to hear from those who consider themselves "serious" amateur archers. I wanted to know what makes them tick, and what they want from their competitions. Don't get hung up on definitions.


What make you think I'm upset? Why on earth do people on this forum assume because one has a point to make, that emotion is required? My point is rational, not emotional.

My point being is words mean something, and they set an impression. When you use the term amateur it synonymous to most of us Americans with novice. That is the point. 

Archery is a hobby sport in my opinion, which means that if anyone thinks of getting into archery to make a good living are just plain silly. You get into archery because you develop a love for the sport. Money or should I say the desire to make money should never ever enter the mind of any aspiring archer. The odds of that happening are staggering. The percentage of archers who go to work shooting arrows each day is so insignificant that amateur vs professional means nothing in archery.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well you posted three times in a row about how you define amateur. And that's not really what the thread is about. 

Words mean different things to different people. And I completely disagree with you that amateur means novice. You feel strongly that it does, but I know enough amateur archers who are anything but novice archers.

If you can look past the definition of amateur (or just read the title where it says "serious" amateur) and think about what it means to you to be a serious amateur (if you are) then you're in line with the spirit of the discussion.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I think more appropriate terms to use in archery are recreational, competitive, and either elite or professional.

In response to the OP, treat us like you do now. I went to my first National tournament in College Station, and outside of my shooting had a great experience.


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