# Hard wall or soft valley and a clicker ...?



## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

I'm curious, I had a top shooter tell me at Vegas that you'll never achieve top scores as a compound finger shooter shooting a hard wall. I've also had a former Olympic coach tell me that's ridiculous forget about the clicker and shoot the wall. Of course the shooter advocating the soft valley could not give me an accurate technical explanation for his assertion so I'm putting it to you guys. Can a finger shooter shoot a wall as accurately as a clicker and valley and more importantly if so why? 

My experience has been that I shoot the wall way more accurately then I ever did a valley, but it may have as much to do with my current level of practice vs any technical advantage or disadvantage. 

I'm also a FITA recurve shooter so I am familiar with the use of a clicker. To me it certainly adds a great deal more complexity to the shot sequence and requires a high level of practice to master it. So I'm wondering if it is a self fulfilling prophecy, clicker shooters shoot better because they are forced to shoot more to master the technique or is there a specific technical advantage? You are welcome to give me your feelings on the matter but I'm most interested in the why one is better than the other.


----------



## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

Don't know about the technical explanation, but for me, with a generous dose of TP working, the clicker adds one more process to the shot, it prevents my brain from inadvertently releasing the string whenever the point of the arrow gets anywhere near the dot(or sight pin, whichever the case may be). Now with all this said, I don't see how one can pull thru a clicker with a hard back wall. I have shot the clicker in front of the valley and more or less in the middle of the valley, prefer in the middle. Shooting barebow and stringwalking however, the draw cycle does not place the point in one consistant place depending on the crawl for yardage, this makes a clicker even tougher to master.


----------



## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

fuelracerpat, why don't you build an adjustable clicker?? I have got one made but I won't be able to test until the end of the month.


----------



## NeilM (May 22, 2006)

Rock hard wall for me every time.

I have been a pretty accurate shot for a long time and to be fair I never shot competitions until after I started to shoot a Bowtech with a solid wall. But since learning how to shoot from the back wall, I don't want to go back to a long valley and sold any bows I had that were like that.

I feel I am more accurate now than I was in the past and I have enough wins and top placings to think I may be onto something.

BUT, what works for me may not work for someone else, as thank goodness, we are all different.


----------



## HighCountry46 (Feb 13, 2009)

I shoot better with a hard wall. I set my draw stop so as to give me a medium valley for a little forgivness incase i creep a little. i dont shoot a short valley well and its not comfortable. the hard wall helps me be more consistant in my anchor as well.also i seem to shoot 80% let off better than 65% not sure why but i do.


----------



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

If you are mentally strong enough not to ever doubt your shot I honestly think the wall is the way to go......I even tried to shoot a clicker with the wall. It is being done, but not by me.....

But I honestly think the clicker is the way to go for the average person, because sooner or later, you will have problems the other way....JMHO


----------



## abe archer (Mar 2, 2003)

*trial and error*

I like a hard wall. Shot a 299 49X's last week. But that is what I like. I have been shooting for over 30 years and have found that you need to try alot of different things to find what works for you. This is not alway a cost effective way but, what works for one person is not always what works for me.

I am thinking of purchasing a new bow, but my old 2002 protec is shooting great. I still will get a new bow like last year, just hope I keep this one. Ouch!!!!!!!!

Trial and error works.


----------



## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

abe_archer
are you shooting in the 290's with fingers?

Clearly if that is the case then I can't understand why you would want to sell your bow?


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

abe archer said:


> I like a hard wall. Shot a 299 49X's last week. But that is what I like. I have been shooting for over 30 years and have found that you need to try alot of different things to find what works for you. This is not alway a cost effective way but, what works for one person is not always what works for me.
> 
> I am thinking of purchasing a new bow, but my old 2002 protec is shooting great. I still will get a new bow like last year, just hope I keep this one. Ouch!!!!!!!!
> 
> Trial and error works.


...Good shooting, Abe!..299 is a great score, and 49 X's is even more impressive...What cams/eccentrics are You shooting on that ProTec??..Jim


----------



## gregs (Dec 28, 2004)

*What works for you?*



b0w_bender said:


> I'm also a FITA recurve shooter so I am familiar with the use of a clicker.


The secret of the archery shot is to do the exact same thing every time. So, if person A can do that with the wall, and person B needs the clicker, great. Whatever one can get used to.

But being a FITA shooter, I'd recommend the soft wall and clicker. It should be more natural when you switch back and forth.


----------



## Northern B. H. (Feb 10, 2009)

Technically speaking a compound bow is designed to shoot from a valley. As you draw a compound bow the draw weight increases to a point where the wheel or cam begins to act as a lever and the draw weight begins to drop off or fall into the valley. After the drop off point the limbs are still storing more energy but as a result of the lever effect of the cams the draw weight is transferring from the string side of the wheel to the cables side. As you draw through the valley and onto the wall the wheels or cams loose their lever effect and you begin to physically attempt to bend the limbs and to transfer the holding weight back from the cables to the string. Follow me so far?
As you release the string from the wall the weight is transfering back to the cables, the limbs are moving forward but the draw weight is actually dropping as it drops from the wall into the valley. The forward motion of the system causes the draw weight to whip down in the valley to a weight that is actually lower than the original let off. From this point on the system is trying to catch up to the limbs and as the bow is accelerated over the top of the draw force curve at a higher weight than the original draw weight.
What all this means is that technically it's harder to shoot off the wall. If you don't release at the same point on the wall with each shot you will get different results from each shot.
Having said all that what's really important is what system do you find the easiest to duplicate? If you can master shooting from the valley I don't think there's any doubt that your chances of shooting better are greatly improved. One of the big problems with the modern compounds is that the valley is virtually non existent - your either on the draw force curve are the wall - which makes it very difficult to shoot from the valley. I'd give my eye teeth to find an old TSS Quadraflex bow.


----------



## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Thanks for ringing in Northern B H, so I'm guessing your a Valley guy and not a wall guy, have you ever shot a clicker? I would expect shooting from a soft valley without a clicker would be the least accurate. 

I have shot the valley method for many years and frankly I'm real happy to have the wall. With the Martin Fury cams I'm not sure what the specific increase in poundage would be at the wall but based on the huge flat surface contacting the cables, I have to believe it would be immense.


----------



## RoentgenX (Feb 24, 2004)

*clicker stuff*

I personally think that on some bows differentiating between the “Valley” and the “Wall” is becoming increasingly difficult. Although any one archer may know what they mean, I sometimes wonder if another archery was to feel the same thing if they would describe it differently. 
Having said all that, I would describe my set ups as follows;
Field / Target – Wheel bow – Clicker
Hunting/ 3D – Command Cam – No Clicker
So, to answer your specific question; I do not shoot a clicker on my setups that have a characteristic that I would describe as “short” or even a non-existent valley, put I certainly do on my wheel bows. This means that I switch back and forth between shooting clicker and non clicker.
I talked about this a little bit in Harpermans post as well.
Great topic
Thanks
RX


----------



## abe archer (Mar 2, 2003)

I am a finger shooter. The bow has command cam 2.


----------



## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

setting a proper draw length to start with , with either way , is first & foremost , but I believe even more critical with a hard wall , I have shot both a bunch over the last 30+ yrs , used to be I thought anyone shooting a hard wall fingers was nutso ...... well , gotta say that that is the camp I am in now , set your DL right , get a good solid anchor , gently relax your fingers/hand as you are slightly applying back tension >====> nice smooth repeatable _consistant_ release , just as consistant as with a clicker , maybe more so ........ I did try a clicker this winter on my X8 with cam & 1/2 + ....... like Gus said , clicker - hard wall = no worky for me .... OH , and Dean , if you get a new Vantage with a cam &1/2 + , NOW you will know what a hard wall is , command cam + isnt even comparable as far as a hard backwall is concerned ...... anyways , just some ramblins from a guy that cant hit a barn anymore if he is standing inside it


----------



## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Ha*

sounds like a smart guy....................


----------



## Northern B. H. (Feb 10, 2009)

b0w_bender said:


> Thanks for ringing in Northern B H, so I'm guessing your a Valley guy and not a wall guy, have you ever shot a clicker? I would expect shooting from a soft valley without a clicker would be the least accurate.
> 
> I have shot the valley method for many years and frankly I'm real happy to have the wall. With the Martin Fury cams I'm not sure what the specific increase in poundage would be at the wall but based on the huge flat surface contacting the cables, I have to believe it would be immense.


I've shot both but prefer the valley. I have never used a clicker and I don't use a peep sight. I shoot one finger over and two under with my bottom finger pretty much off when at full draw. I anchor with my index finger on my eye tooth. Years ago I used to average 585 [we always shot 60 arrows ] but even with fiber optic sights I don't see the target very well anymore. Right now I'd have trouble shooting 560.

On your Martin Fury I suspect you are correct in assuming that the increase in poundage is immense. Doesn't mean you can't shoot it well, just makes it more critical. For some archers it's difficult to control draw length or maintain back pressure without the aid of a clicker and hard wall becomes the least of two evils.


----------



## OBE (Dec 4, 2009)

I am fairly new to the compound world and could sure use some simple exlanations of soft wall, hard wall and valley. thanks.


----------



## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

OBE said:


> I am fairly new to the compound world and could sure use some simple exlanations of soft wall, hard wall and valley. thanks.


I'll give it a shot
Valley or softwall is when you get to full draw you can feel where the lightest holding weight is as you pull farther you can feel the draw weight going up and if you start to collapse you'll again feel the weight increasing. so the valley is where you get the greatest mechanical advantage. Having that play in there is called a soft wall. A hard wall is when you get to full draw and it feels like you just can't pull it any farther. it feels like you physically hit a wall.


----------



## OBE (Dec 4, 2009)

b0w_bender said:


> I'll give it a shot
> Valley or softwall is when you get to full draw you can feel where the lightest holding weight is as you pull farther you can feel the draw weight going up and if you start to collapse you'll again feel the weight increasing. so the valley is where you get the greatest mechanical advantage. Having that play in there is called a soft wall. A hard wall is when you get to full draw and it feels like you just can't pull it any farther. it feels like you physically hit a wall.


Thanks a mil...the light bulb just turned on for me.


----------



## Rhys A (Jun 18, 2010)

I am a wall shooter and have been since PSE made the Vector 5 wheel. the Vector 4 didn't have such a good wall and I saw my scores increase with shooting of the wall.

Having a solid wall also aids in setting your wheel timing on 2 cam bows. and I personally think it helps build more consitstency in my shot. 

Draw length is so important in either case I believe .

I currently shoot the spiral cam of hoyt and honestly wouldn't want to try and shoot it out of the valley.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference and what works best for you ! just another reason I love our sport .


----------



## OBE (Dec 4, 2009)

Rhys A said:


> I am a wall shooter and have been since PSE made the Vector 5 wheel. the Vector 4 didn't have such a good wall and I saw my scores increase with shooting of the wall.
> 
> Having a solid wall also aids in setting your wheel timing on 2 cam bows. and I personally think it helps build more consitstency in my shot.
> 
> ...


From the reading I have done on the spiral cam, it seems that if any creeping is done....the string will be ripped from the fingers. I am currently shooting a cam half plus and have been told that I am collapsing/creeping before release. I have also been told that at times it looks like my draw length is too long (possibly pulling too deep into the wall). It seems that the spiral cams might aid/force me to hold proper back tension until time of release.....as well as keeping my draw length consistent. I will have to give the spirals a try and see if it helps. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

OBE said:


> From the reading I have done on the spiral cam, it seems that if any creeping is done....the string will be ripped from the fingers. I am currently shooting a cam half plus and have been told that I am collapsing/creeping before release. I have also been told that at times it looks like my draw length is too long (possibly pulling too deep into the wall). It seems that the spiral cams might aid/force me to hold proper back tension until time of release.....as well as keeping my draw length consistent. I will have to give the spirals a try and see if it helps. Thanks for the input.


I had the same problem with creeping with my old Oneida (huge valley, soft wall). I started shooting a 65% Mathews Triumph last year (the 65% Triumph cam gets described just like the spirals; smooth, no valley and hard wall) and the problem pretty much has went away. These cams don't neccessarily rip the string from your fingers if you creep but they sure do give it a good attempt.


----------

