# Moving from instinctive to split vision......



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

FD - 


Flying Dutchman said:


> I was curious if this a normal development after shooting for a while? I am also curious if split-vison and instinctive shooting can be used trough each other, though I understand they are very closely related.


More closely related than you might think. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to use something right under your nose (to one degree or another) ... 

I keep recalling a "gentlemen" who posted a while back that he deliberately trained himself NOT to see the arrow. Besides being physically impossible, really makes you wonder what in the world some people are thinking.

(repeated) iIternet debate to follow ... 

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> FD -
> 
> 
> More closely related than you might think. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to use something right under your nose (to one degree or another) ...
> ...


Besides that, as you move back, the scale changes. Target reference gets smaller as shooter reference remains the same. IOW, what's under your nose gets bigger relative to what you are shooting at. Where it all might have gotten mixed in the up-close picture, it's harder to ignore at longer distance, that is, if one is so inclined as to wanting to ignore what they see.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Sanford - 

I've always wondered how Internet (non-cross-eye-dominant) "instinctive" types figured out their point-on distance??? Hummm .... hehehehehehe

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Sanford -
> 
> I've always wondered how Internet (non-cross-eye-dominant) "instinctive" types figured out their point-on distance??? Hummm .... hehehehehehe
> 
> Viper1 out.


They keep moving till they hit where they are looking???? Measure that distance??? Write it on the face of the bow for reference, of course, where it can be referenced while pointing the bow????


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Gap works..........have you tried stringwalking, whoa, it's having the sight picuture you like at every range......deadly.


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

I did not try stringwalking as it is forbidden on all 3D tournamanents over here.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Here too, unless your shooting barebow. Still, just for your own information, slide your fingers down the string about an inch and see what happens. You may just be shooting in the barebow division next shoot!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Flying Dutchman said:


> I thought I focussed on the target only. But today I found out, that, when aiming and certainly at the longer distances (say 30 yards and more) I use my arrowpoint as an aimingdevice. It is not clearly in sight, my focus is on the target, but I see my arrow blurred. When my arrow points at the target, it is "dead on" and I hardly can miss.


This is often where alot of confusion exists when explaining some aiming techniques.

Our eyes see more than just what's within our direct line of sight. Our eyes can see multiple objects within our periphial vision and the closer an object is to our line of sight the better we can see it and use it. The more in line an object is within our direct line of sight...the easier it is for our conscious minds to see it and use it...and vice versa.



Flying Dutchman said:


> It is like "the unconscious" suddenly became "conscious"...


Yep...and that's all it basically takes as mysterious as it may seem.



Flying Dutchman said:


> I was curious if this a normal development after shooting for a while? I am also curious if split-vison and instinctive shooting can be used trough each other, though I understand they are very closely related.


As Viper stated...many of the different barebow aiming are closely related and our minds work on different levels of consciousness...so it has, can and will work...but it won't necessarily work for everyone.

My suggestion is to embrase it and learn multiple aiming techniques for different distances and circumstances...which is what I do :shade:

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*Let it roll*

I hope this thread lasts for a long time.


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## Clang! (Sep 29, 2007)

Flying Dutchman said:


> Today, at training, I mentioned something new in my aiming method. I am not sure how long I am doing this, but I mentioned it today. I thought I focussed on the target only. But today I found out, that, when aiming and certainly at the longer distances (say 30 yards and more) I use my arrowpoint as an aimingdevice. It is not clearly in sight, my focus is on the target, but I see my arrow blurred. When my arrow points at the target, it is "dead on" and I hardly can miss.
> Strange that I noticed it today. It is like "the unconscious" suddenly became "conscious" and I don't know what triggered it. I never was aware of my arrow before.
> 
> Curious as I was, I "made this new method more conscious" and with great results! I was shooting and hitting like never before on 40 yards!
> ...


That's typical of using split vision. Ive found that how much you "point" tha arrow depends upon distance. Under ~15 yards, I can't "point" the arrow and have to shoot instinctively. Out at 40 yards, it's a major part of my sight picture.

I've seen moderate improvements in my NFAA 300 scores, but split vision really shined on the longer shots.


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I hope this thread lasts for a long time.



I hope that too! My reason is obvious, what is yours? 

This weekend I have a big 3D tournament which will last for two days. I hope there are a lot of distance shots, from 40 yards or more.... Then I can find all out about this split-vision/instinctive mix! :happy:


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## uscg4good (Jan 27, 2007)

I do the same thing, and it is a pretty acccurate method of aiming


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

I was self taught "instinctive" because that's where anybody that knew nothing about archery would start,and that's exactly where i was.
Then I read Howard Hills "hunting the hard way" and have been shooting mainly split vision ever since.
I've tried most everything I've ever heard about but stick to split vision because it comes very natural for me.
I still find it very amusing that some people are actualy making money from books,DVD's, and classes where they actualy teach you instinctive shooting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now it works like this mate,,"pretend" you can't see the arrow when it's only 3 inches from your eyeball (this is a must) never never admit you saw the arrow before it hit the target,,,,,now "pretend" your not aiming at anything,(another must here) because we pure archery types never actualy aim,,,,remember it's just like throwing a baseball,,,,but not really because your not actualy throwing anything so the hand eye relationship is nothing like throwing a ball,,,but some people are to stupid to think of that,and we're to stupid to think of anything better, so we'll just stick with it for now. ,,,,give it time and the force will be with you,,,"always pick a spot" but don't aim ok:set1_rolf2:,,,,that will be $99.99 thank you very much,,,no fancy aiming systems here,,,,don't forget to pick up your new plaid shirt as you leave.

Split vision as the next step,,,yeah it makes sense,,your fully aware of what your doing and why your doing it,an that's not a bad way to be,,,,even if it ain't,,,,,,,,,, pure.:embara:


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

I thought I was shooting instinctive untill I shot in the dark with another using a lazer pointer to make a spot on the target. Apparently I'm not so instinctive. 
So I'm requiring some sort of sight picture I guess.


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## uscg4good (Jan 27, 2007)

Hey that's a pretty good idea, I might have to try that sometime


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

red44 said:


> I thought I was shooting instinctive untill I shot in the dark with another using a lazer pointer to make a spot on the target. Apparently I'm not so instinctive.
> So I'm requiring some sort of sight picture I guess.


To be honest...that's a poor test to determine if an archer is aiming instinctively or not.

Archers who aim instinctively use a sight picture but they allow the subconscious mind to recognize it and adjust it.

Archers who aim instinctively will rely on varing degrees of proprialception, muscle memory and spatial awareness which can also vary from archer to archer.

Proprioception can be enhanced by shooting at lazers pointed on bullseyes in the dark by having someone turn the lights on inbetween each shot for feedback.

Ray :shade:


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## Pikkuhannu (Apr 3, 2009)

Jack NZ said:


> I was self taught "instinctive" because that's where anybody that knew nothing about archery would start,and that's exactly where i was.
> Then I read Howard Hills "hunting the hard way" and have been shooting mainly split vision ever since.:



Same book here... 

First i aim with one eye closed and look for arrow.
Then i read the book, and try both eyes open split vision. Now i use that...


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## Clang! (Sep 29, 2007)

Pikkuhannu said:


> Same book here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read the book, but wasn't able to effectively put the technique into practice. My turning point was an article about "point shooting" pistols. It just took a while to figure out how to divide my attention.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I've always advised to learn them all as no one aiming method is suitable for every shooting situation, Instinct\Split for short to med range and then Gap\POA for long range makes you a very adaptable Archer.

Flying Duchman good luck with Split, you will only get better


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Flying Dutchman said:


> I've been traditional shooting for two years now. After having trained a LOT, I am on an new level now. I am into 3D only, because hunting is forbidden in The Netherlands. I shoot with a modern R/D longbow and shoot purely instinctive, two fingers under.
> 
> Today, at training, I mentioned something new in my aiming method. I am not sure how long I am doing this, but I mentioned it today. I thought I focussed on the target only. But today I found out, that, when aiming and certainly at the longer distances (say 30 yards and more) I use my arrowpoint as an aimingdevice. It is not clearly in sight, my focus is on the target, but I see my arrow blurred. When my arrow points at the target, it is "dead on" and I hardly can miss.
> Strange that I noticed it today. It is like "the unconscious" suddenly became "conscious" and I don't know what triggered it. I never was aware of my arrow before.
> ...


Once I was able to learn and understand why ANCHOR was important to my shooting, I started looking down the arrow shaft as I drew and then out to the target as I anchored and released. I think that over time, shooting from 5 yards to 25 yards taught me to subconciously measure the distance compared to what I was seeing through my peripheral vision as I focused on the target. Techically speaking, in order to aim properly, I'm of the opinion that to be most accurate, you focus on your aiming device and look at your target in your peripheral anyother opinion on this as well?

Aloha...


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

Okay,

I've had my weekend of 3D shooting in the forests of the South of the Netherlands. It was tuff, getting up at 06.00 in the morning both days!:mg:
I decided to let the split-vison come when it was there. Setting it free. As always I was focussing on the target, not seeing my arrow. However, at several occasions my arrow was suddenly there, and I accepted it and used it. I shot the best round ever! It was 30 targets each days, among some challenging plus/minus targtets and some hunters.
Normally, when I am in great shape, I shoot 11 points as an average. This weekend I shot an amazing 13 points as an average, which is a GIANT leap forwards.! The difference in points would be 660 vs 780. 
So I think split vison definitely has improved my shooting. 
I was focussing on the target always and my arrow was in the peripheral, but more obvious as usual. At larger distances, I de-blurred the arrow. 

It all came natural and felt natural. 

Just wanted to share this.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

AWESOME and CONGRATS! :thumbs_up

Ray :wink:


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## timduvall (Mar 18, 2008)

yes congrats. If people would stop worrying about what people online (whom they have never met by the way) think of their style and just shoot whatever they need to, we would read a lot more of these types of threads...now if you'll excuse me, i have to go adjust the sight on my longbow...(ducking and running for cover)


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## Flying Dutchman (Aug 7, 2008)

Well, especially the first day was amazing. I shot on 30 targets 429 points. This is an average of 14.3, which is extremely high, only to be found in the top-ranking. For one day I was beween the best of the best....
Second day I had bad luck with the plus/minus targets and I had some negative points at some targets. And I missed some.... Oh well, its all in the game I guess....

Thanks for the reactions!


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

Since I was like you "not consciously seeing the arrow" I assumed that I was 100% instinctive but more & more I started to notice the arrow point & shaft & thought well crap I have been using Split Vision all this time & just didn't know it till now.

My point on distance "where at full draw my point is dead on the spot on the target" is 40 yards & the longer distances I'm still learning how to use point of aim or gap shooting for those shots beyond 40 yards.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Just for clarification.

Slpit Vision and Gap Aiming are often misunderstood and/or get confused.

Just because an archer is conscious of using their arrow as a reference for aiming....does NOT mean they are using the Split Vision technique described by Howard Hill.

In order for an archer to be using Split Vision, they must use an imaginary or actual mark near or on the target where the arrow tip is positioned in order to hit the target. The archer's vision is split between that spot, the arrow tip and the bullseye with the primary focus being on the target.

When learning this technique...many archers start off by placing their arrow tip on a predetermined spot and than shift their focus to the bullseye.

If an archer isn't consciously using a spot to place their arrow tip on in reference to a target's position and distance...the archer is more than likely using a Gap Aiming technique.

Split Vision is basically and more simply put...useing Point of Aim and than switching focus or splitting the focus to the bullseye instead of keeping the focus completely on the spot the arrow tip is on as when an archer is using only Point of Aim.

Ray :wink:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi Blackwolf..... 

This is essentially the manner of which I've adopted to shoot.... look down my arrow at draw then out to the target. However, I'm curious about something. Wouldn't accuracy improve if one focused on the aiming device (tip) and looking at the target bull through ones peripheral?

Thanks for taking the time to think about this.... 

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> However, I'm curious about something. Wouldn't accuracy improve if one focused on the aiming device (tip) and looking at the target bull through ones peripheral?
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to think about this....
> 
> Much Aloha... :beer:


It's soooo individualistic. It really depends on the archer and the situation.

Personally...based on what I've researched...in many target competition specific sitautions where an archer is shooting at a known distance and the target is stationary...I would say 'yes'. Point of Aim seems to have an advantage there when comparing the scores and techniques of the archers competeting.

Ray :wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*Thanks for asking*



Flying Dutchman said:


> I hope that too! My reason is obvious, what is yours?
> 
> This weekend I have a big 3D tournament which will last for two days. I hope there are a lot of distance shots, from 40 yards or more.... Then I can find all out about this split-vision/instinctive mix! :happy:


Educational-Entertaining,in no particular order.:thumbs_up


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*Don't become lunch*



Jack NZ said:


> I was self taught "instinctive" because that's where anybody that knew nothing about archery would start,and that's exactly where i was.
> Then I read Howard Hills "hunting the hard way" and have been shooting mainly split vision ever since.
> I've tried most everything I've ever heard about but stick to split vision because it comes very natural for me.
> I still find it very amusing that some people are actualy making money from books,DVD's, and classes where they actualy teach you instinctive shooting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now it works like this mate,,"pretend" you can't see the arrow when it's only 3 inches from your eyeball (this is a must) never never admit you saw the arrow before it hit the target,,,,,now "pretend" your not aiming at anything,(another must here) because we pure archery types never actualy aim,,,,remember it's just like throwing a baseball,,,,but not really because your not actualy throwing anything so the hand eye relationship is nothing like throwing a ball,,,but some people are to stupid to think of that,and we're to stupid to think of anything better, so we'll just stick with it for now. ,,,,give it time and the force will be with you,,,"always pick a spot" but don't aim ok:set1_rolf2:,,,,that will be $99.99 thank you very much,,,no fancy aiming systems here,,,,don't forget to pick up your new plaid shirt as you leave.
> ...


Hey Jack
If if you ever find yourself face to face with a wicked badass creature who seems to think you look tasty, and no time to do any calculations or make any calls for help,there's still an out. Use the bow as a club.Or just throw it at him and run.Fast! Really fast!!! Might be wishing for the plaid shirt about then.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jack NZ said:


> I was self taught "instinctive" because that's where anybody that knew nothing about archery would start,and that's exactly where i was.
> Then I read Howard Hills "hunting the hard way" and have been shooting mainly split vision ever since.
> I've tried most everything I've ever heard about but stick to split vision because it comes very natural for me.
> I still find it very amusing that some people are actualy making money from books,DVD's, and classes where they actualy teach you instinctive shooting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now it works like this mate,,*"pretend" you can't see the arrow when it's only 3 inches from your eyeball (t*his is a must) never never admit you saw the arrow before it hit the target,,,,,now "pretend" your not aiming at anything,(another must here)


It was at that point that I had to put down "Instinctive Archery" by G. Fred Asbell. I had no problem with the idea of not looking at the arrow, but the whole bit about having to **absolutely** not see it when it is right under your eye, in your sight picture, showed Asbell to be full of it. Heck, I even accept that a sight picture isn't always involved, even unconsciously (Frank Addington Jr. can shoot baby aspirins out of the air with his bow behind his back), but Asbell's silly instructions made me annoyed I'd bought his book and suspect of his other "wisdom."


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