# shooting off the shelf



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

No, you didn't make a mistake. However, being aware of the options is always to your advantage should you find cause, or the curiosity, to employ them. 

I shoot both shelf and elevated depending upon the nature of the bow's riser cut, or simply because my gut (and flight observation) tells me that one or the other is preferred for a particular bow.

You can build up shelf and side plate materials to mimic the launch configurations of an elevated rest, which I often employ if all I need is a shelf tweak. 

Bows with flat shelf and side areas can work well with a simple elevated rest. The lack of arc contours on these bows almost beg for an elevated rest ... short of performing a shelf buildup to achieve the same.

A few of my bows have been meticulously contoured by the bowyer so as to perform magnificently off the shelf. An elevated rest would, no doubt, insult this craftsmanship, and I have no qualms deferring to the bowyer's expertise on these specific bows. Here I ain't gonna try to fix what ain't broken so long as I like the results I am achieving.

However, I've have encountered the occasional "perfect shelf cut" that shoots okay, yet over time has nagged me enough to give an elevated shelf a whack ... which has often eliminated the "nag" from the equation.

Experimentation is easy and reversible. If happiness is manifest, stay put. If curiosity presents itself, explore. 

Durability and simplicity? A good elevated rest is fairly bullet-proof, and spares can always be easily carried for accidental failures.

Hope this helps.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

lunger - 

You're still asking some good questions, but they pretty much describes the current state of archery in a lot of placers. 

There are really only two reasons (IMHO) to shoot off the shelf. 
1. You're an idiot - and I mean that in the truest sense of the word. There's NO logical reason to shoot off the shelf on a bow that allows a rest. 
2. You shooting in class / org that requires that. 
Exception: you're shooting a longbow who's riser really isn't suited for a rest, see caveat for #1.. 

Regarding your other question:
Riser and limb length for target archery are 99% based on your draw length and 1% on preference. 
For field/hunting bows, some concession has to made for practicality. While it's been done, carrying a 70" bow through the woods isn't usually fun, and usually impossible from most stands or blinds.

Viper1 out.


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I'll see about getting some rests. Two of the bows are drilled and tapped for a good quality, adjustable type. The other two would have to be some sort of stickon rest, so I'm not sure what to do there. I would like to try a longbow and a target style bow out sometime. I have a 28 inch draw as measured on an incremented arrow. Hoping to find a club in my area that can help. I'm a wheat farmer in eastern Washington, and not a high population around me.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

lunger - 

May I suggest you pick a bow and stick with it for a while. 

You're doing pretty well, but jumping from one bow (type) to another while fun, doesn't usually doesn't help your shooting.

Viper1 out.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

You’re not an idiot if you choose to shoot of the shelf.

First of all a rest can add money. It can be a few bucks it can be $100.00 a bow. A couple of different set ups can cost plenty of extra bucks. 

It can be more care free while hunting. 

I have heard ( I don’t shoot off the shelf) it can help with an instinctive style by having the arrow closer to your hand

No need to worry about gear and equipment classes. Your good to go no matter what you want to do. No need to change your shooting style as well. You may not be as competitive in some classes. However that’s a choice for the archer. May not be competitive with the rest in that class anyhow.

I like my metal risers because they can change limbs. They also happen to have a hole I can use a rest and plunger on so I do. I plan on doing some shooting off the self in the future. If I can get comfortable with the style it will be my hunting set up.


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I guess it sure wouldn't hurt to run my bow awhile longer, and try to be a little more consistent with it. I was just looking at a Hoyt axis 25 inch a minute ago on the classifieds. I guess my biggest problem at the moment is not knowing what I want. I really like some of these longbows, and the recurve bows that are custom. I even like the full blown, hi tech target bows too! Lunger


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Honestly I like the custom wood bows. However I will reference one that I recently shot at a trade show. That bow with interchangeable limbs was almost 1K. Different set of limbs 499.00. They had a metal riser version what would also fit their proprietary limbs for almost 1K . They were excellent bows and shot well. The wood ones were beautiful. No reason not to own these bows at all. 

However my ILF set up is ½ that cost and way more versatile. Plus I have more tuning options. For ½ the cost and 2x the options….. well I can’t make myself go with anything else no matter how much I may want to.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I guess I'm an idiot, probably no surprise to those who have read my posts over the years. All of my bows are designed and made to be shot off the shelf and work well for me shooting them off the shelf. A well thought out shelf that has minimal arrow contact and the contact point directly over the deepest part of the grip is doing the same thing as a rest, it's just not as easily adjustable.

I suppose I could stick a butt ugly cheap plastic rest on the side of the riser, I just don't see any point in it. And yes, I have done just that in years past and didn't notice any advantages.

On the other hand, a bow with a poorly designed shelf or a bow made to be shot with a rest would certainly be shot that way by me. I'm not saying that shooting off the shelf is necessarily _better_, but it often works very well and is still the simplest system, something that is desirable on a hunting bow.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

lunger 66 said:


> Two of the bows are drilled and tapped for a good quality, adjustable type. The other two would have to be some sort of stickon rest, so I'm not sure what to do there.


Here is an excellent and ridiculously inexpensive stick-on rest:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/hoyt-super-rest.html

You can shim the outboard depth of this rest with any combination of the two adhesive pads that come with it (or add more if you need to), or glue it directly to the riser (with Barge or contact cement) for minimal outboard depth.

You can also use this rest on your drilled risers if you don't want to go the plunger/rest route.

I use painters or masking tape to hold the rest in place (with or without shims) for a good eyeball on the configuration and some test shooting. When satisfied, it's off with the tape and on to the permanent glue-down. This allows for experimentation and tuning adjustments before locking in with the adhesives.

It will stick like a beast to your riser and has quite a long life in the wear department. 

I also like this rest: http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bear-traditional-weather-rest.html

Although lately I've started leaning more towards the Hoyt Super than the Bear Weather just because ... well, I dunno. They are both excellent performers.


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## Judojones (Mar 8, 2017)

Shooting off the shelf is awesome for hunting but probaly not serious target shooting. I don't understand why some people might feel an inflated importance of their personal opinion about it but, so what. Anyway, shooting of the shelf is simple and accurate and it might be right for you, but probaly not. If your going to go on the target archery trip then go ; rest stab sights ectera ect. You'll have a lot of fun. Good luck.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

Shooting off the shelf is just one preference among many that verifies my idiot status. 

I suppose I cannot add an option three for shooting off the shelf because I want to do it. There was the reasonable stipulation that all the options must be based on “logical” reasons. One’s personal enjoyment is not a logical reason.

I have used both the elevated Hoyt Super Rests and Bear Weather Rests on my finger-shooter compound bows. They worked fine. They looked fine on a compound bow. I would not “want” them or any other elevated rests on my beautiful one-piece wooden recurves or longbows. Of course, if one’s bow is a highly functional already hopeless ugly metal monstrosity for which one can derive no visual pride of ownership anyway (I recently watched “The Push 1.3 - IBO Masters”), then I do not see where the elevated rests, plungers, wrist slings, stabilizers, other added weights, etc. (or wheels, cables, and sights for that matter) could do any further harm.


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I value everyone's opinion, and that's why I ask these questions. I also believe everyone who has responded to my questions are sincerely trying to help me. Years ago a guy sold me a 55lb herters bow, and showed me how to shoot it. I got poor instruction from him, and was able to outshoot him right away because he was a poor shot himself. My bow finally cracked and I bought a compound with all the extras. After a long break from archery, I remembered having more fun trad. I've started over now with a recurve, a few books like shooting the stickbow, and this forum. Truth is I'm shooting far better than when I first learned, with about two and a half weeks of serious shooting versus 2 yrs experience the wrong way. I welcome ALL responses, and don't care how it's worded. Thankful for all, Lunger


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

lunger 66 said:


> I guess it sure wouldn't hurt to run my bow awhile longer, and try to be a little more consistent with it. I was just looking at a Hoyt axis 25 inch a minute ago on the classifieds. I guess my biggest problem at the moment is not knowing what I want. I really like some of these longbows, and the recurve bows that are custom. I even like the full blown, hi tech target bows too! Lunger


The Axis (or any other TEC riser) isn't a good choice for barebow. 

As for rest: If you want to shoot NFAA trad then an elevated rest is a good choice. Something like the Hoyt Super Rest works and eventually you will want a plunger too but it's not needed right now.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

I can think of a third reason: If you shoot with your bow canted. 

Granted I don't know of a target shooter that cants their bow (because getting to the same exact angle of a cant every time is adding one more thing that can go wrong and vary your shot) but if you do cant the bow, putting an arrow on an elevated rest will make your shot harder than off of the shelf. IMHO.


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## Yooper-travler (Feb 28, 2011)

A couple of thoughts. First I have never had an elevated rest fail or break while hunting or shooting. A plastic stick on rest for your sage would run you about 3-5$. Cheap to try. They are "simple", "durable" and inexpensive. I run a rest on all my recurves, not just my ILF rigs. I do however shoot my longbow off the shelf.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

fallhunt said:


> ................... if one’s bow is a highly functional already hopeless ugly metal monstrosity for which one can derive no visual pride of ownership anyway (I recently watched “The Push 1.3 - IBO Masters”) ....................


In retrospect, I am heading towards the weekend with a persistent nagging feeling that I should retract or at least apologize to ILF archers (and IBO Champions).

My comments were harsh, angry, and a bit over the top. So I do apologize.

What can one expect from an idiot who shoots off the shelf – LOL?


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> There's NO logical reason to shoot off the shelf on a bow that allows a rest.


I interpret "allows a rest" as meaning a bow that is either tapped for such and minus shelf and side area contouring, or has dead-flat shelf/side areas minus the tap, probably having been produced with elevated rest usage in mind (as was once quite common). In these instances, I also usually assume that the bow was tillered and balanced for rests to be used in those specific locations. 

On my bows presenting these traits, I always defer to an elevated rest. I certainly could significantly build and elevate shelf and side materials to achieve a similar result ... but then I'd simply be shooting off of an elevated rest of my own design. Personal call there, of course, but them Hoyt and Bear rests do shoot right durned proper.

Many of my wooden recurves and longbows are skinny little fellers and very nicely contoured for shelf shooting and therefore, as was also mentioned previously, would probably not benefit from elevated rest usage unless desperately desired.

My ILF metal riser and other large target bows all sport elevated rests since they were deliberately made for such, and shoot so well elevated that I've never been curious to explore shelf alternatives on them. I'm not lazy in the experimentation department, but I do know a good thing when I shoot it.

If one of my bows is a "betweener" ... perhaps with a barely contoured shelf, flat side area, and not tapped from the maker ... and if it smells right, I'll often try shooting off the shelf with some "bumping" material (toothpick, thong, etc.) under the material to provide a more specific launching point for the arrow. If this doesn't make me happy, an elevated rest is immediately employed and usually gets my happy right back.

One can simply observe and study a bow's cut to make a pretty good guess as to what kind of shelf or elevated configuration might do the best trick. Knowing what everyone else is doing with a particular style of bow can also give one food for thought. And as for them in-betweeners or iffy situations, a bit of experimentation is both fun and instructive.


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## Buxndiverdux (Oct 19, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> lunger
> 
> Viper1.... You crack me up... LOL.


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## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Reason number three is that I prefer shooting off the shelf for most of my bows. It is particularly appropriate for stump shooting or hunting. I have bows set up both ways and I do not see a lot of difference in my shooting. 
I did very much enjoy Viper's book, but it isn't gospel.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Thin -

Pretty much. 
I would not put a rest on my Hill or Hill style long bow or the bows you described. Nor would I go out of my way to put a rest and plunger on a dedicated hunting rig - as I said, in MY opinion. 

All of the advantages the neo-trad types claim there is shooting off the shelf can be shot down both in theory and in practice. I guess you noticed some one brought up the alternate fact that you shouldn't cant a bow with a rest ... 

Unless the bow is VERY short or VERY poorly designed, tiller usually doesn't enter into the equation, since the difference between the rest and shelf can usually be handled by a simple nocking point change. 

Most of the neo-trads don't realized how new "shooting off the shelf" is. 50 years a go, a rest was attached to a new bow before it was ever strung. The "rugs" that came with on the bows, were either ripped off or ignored. We discussed before why things that were common half a century ago are now too high tech. 

Viper1 out.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

This Wes Wallace is my deer hunting bow and shoots really great off the shelf.








And this Titan III is my 3-D bow and shoots great with a feather rest. 








My Gillo G1 has a Shibuya rest and Beiter plunger though.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

I have bows with elevated rests that I rarely shoot…some also had sights that I’ve taken off and inserts for stabilizers that I never use. My fundamental purpose is bowhunting, but what has made all of this fun for the past 61 years is the many areas of novelty…and interest. My first 3 bows I shot off my knuckle, so when bows with shelves became more widely available I accepted it as a quantum leap forward. Funny, I’ve only recently related to a couple of people how bows with shelves and bows with pistol grips were met with limited acceptance because many people thought those innovations would weaken bows…and Bear even took steps to quell the storm with an “I beam” riser.

(Bear even listed many bows in his catalogs as having no draw limit. When his “Be a 2 Season Hunter” promotion got underway it caused a lot of old self bows to come out of the closet, only to make a quick trip into the kindling basket. So, with the advent of fiberglass laminations and the aforementioned innovations that soon followed, concerns regarding breakage fell, rather undeservedly, under the microscope…but Bear answered back. This wasn’t that long ago, folks…in the history of archery, nothing I’ve mentioned is even an hour old.) 

The way I’ve hunted for a lifetime is with an arrow on the string 99.9% of the time…and to me an elevated rest would only complicate the simplicity that securing the arrow to the shelf provides. Also, I shoot a ton of flu flu’s in the course of a year and that, in itself, threatens shelf material…so I doubt the most rugged elevated rest would stand up anywhere near as well.

My go to bow is my hunting bow, so the majority of my practice is all about building my relationship with that bow, just the way it is. And I don’t care if I’m shooting off the shelf or with an elevated rest, I want to shoot an arrow as far as whatever bow I’m using is capable…and at anything I choose in between. It’s a bow…that’s what it was made to do, and I want to learn as much as I can about it.

Personally, I don’t have the time to waste on folks who hold to one way of doing things. Their choice is their choice and mine is mine…but whatever works for a person is all that matters. Failure of an ability to bridge whatever gap there may be only fails the purpose of “archers helping archers”. I doubt that anyone here is sitting for a sculpture being made in their honor. I, for one, am not.

I’ve never put much stock in the saying that you should try everything once. For many things, once is simply not enough exposure to form an opinion…and opinions can change. The choices in archery are many. Some folks choose to make lifetime decisions and some will store alternate choices in their bag of tricks. I’m sure I’m not the only one here who has an accumulation of “had-to-haves” that are not presently in use. Part of the fun is the experimenting…and finding things out for yourself. Enjoy, Rick.


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## Tim Delf (Jul 6, 2016)

Lunger,
I shot a Samick Journey almost all last summer. It shot really well with a Shibuya Ultima wire rest, a BeeStinger 10" Stabilizer and no plunger. Like you, I was shooting a 35# bow that was about 37# at my draw length. I was able to get 600 spine carbon arrows to tune nicely.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

lunger 66 said:


> Just started reading vipers thread about "your first recurve bow", and see that he mentioned that it complicates things for a new shooter to set his bow up this way. I wanted to ask if you shoot off the shelf, and if not, what are your reasons for using another type of arrow rest. I've got 4 bows here at my house, and every one of them are set up to shoot off the shelf. The 35 lb samick is the one i'm shooting most of the time, and shot a 261 yesterday at 15 yards off the shelf, and plan to shoot at a full 20 yards if the wind will die down enough. The reason I set the bows up for off the shelf was durability, and simplicity, but may have made yet another mistake. I'd like to hear what you all think about arrow rest options. Thanks, Lunger


Do it all the time.







Here a samick sage. Shoots great. 
Dan


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

For me ..... and I'm rather simple  nothing has worked as well for me and what I use my bow for than a seal skin covered shelf


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

I too, am rather simple…… not an idiot, but uncomplicated!

I like to compete and rules I follow allow a shelf or little plastic elevated rest (Hoyt super rest or similar) should the rules (WA3D "instinctive") allow a more durable rest then I would reconsider my mindset which is that I need, in my mind to simplify as much as is practical, so for now at least I am shooting off the shelf. 

I get shooting off a rest IS the most beneficial for a host of reasons but a slightly modified shelf is waaaay more durable than a fragile plastic rest that I need to be mindful of, carry spares of and be constantly checking the state of, therefore I am conscious of. I don't worry about shooting off the shelf
I am not 100% sold on my little theory but I am of the belief that, being a chronic over-thinker, that simplifying for me is a good route and thus my reasoning for doing it.
If the rules allowed a metal/wire rest then I would change my tune.
I also like to pick up a longbow as well and it keeps things consistent, but as ever - never say never and I am very prone to changes of opinion


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

IMHO, someone needs to look up the meaning of *"idiot"* and *"logical."*

KPC


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## Brad Lehmann (Sep 4, 2010)

I shoot off the shelf. If the shelf is too flat I modify the rug. If I were a target shooter I would buy the best rest available. Fifty years ago there was a huge popularity for competitive target shooting and many of the bows had rests installed at the factory or added on by the archer. We now have a huge popularity for hunting and 3D shooting. We also are on a forum where bow hunters and target shooters are giving each other advice. Some of it is good and some of it is pretty useless advice. I didn't say that it was bad advice, it is just not relative to where some of us want to go with the sport of archery. If we all set up our bows the same we would have elevated rests and clickers on hunting bows. And maybe even sights and three foot long stabilizers. Sheesh!


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## Brad Lehmann (Sep 4, 2010)

Dang, I forgot about plungers. And maybe a level and some fiber optic pins. And an assortment of different grip profiles. What am I forgetting?


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

rickstix said:


> I doubt that anyone here is sitting for a sculpture being made in their honor. I, for one, am not.


This is the funniest thing I've read in a while[emoji106]

Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Sounds like there are a lot of idiots here.
To para-phrase Mr Lincoln.... looks like he removed all doubt.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well Viper?...ya did it again...so I have a few question for you here...

Question #1. In your opinion?...Were the designers at Hoyt (along with Fred Eichler) *"IDIOTS"* (as you so eloquently put it) when they produced their "Buffalo & Satori" metal risers which were specifically designed to be shot off the shelf?

Question #2. In your opinion?...Was Bob Morrison an Idiot as well when he incorporated a shelf level plunger hole into the manufacture of his line of machined alum. ILF risers?

Mr. Camera...what these Bow Hunters know that you apparently don't is that when looking for the slightest bit of movement in a world filled with so much geometry that only God could have created it (AKA "The Woods")?....a bow hunters eyes can't be everywhere keeping track of all things at all times where in short order?...one comes to experience just how frequently an arrow shaft can be unwittingly bumped against the massive amounts of foliage or?...the point getting slightly hung on a vine...where the savvy bow hunter knows that having a nice large foundation for the arrow to do a little bobbling on (without falling completely off the bow) is a very wise thing.

Question #3: Yet in your opinion?....folks who choose such are "Idiots"? 

And for the record?...I shoot a Beiter Plunger w/ a Spig ZT rest off my Tempest BB rig but my Covert Hunter is shot "Off The Shelf"

and here's my group of 2 arrows shot "Off The Shelf" in the middle of several groups of 2 arrows shot by Open Class Compound bows...yesterday...










mine are the ones with the big feathers...as shot "Off-The-Shelf"...by an Archer you would claim to be "An Idiot"...me.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

I got my first bow in the 60s. It came with a "brush" rest. It never wore out and never failed. Years later I bought additional bows. I put a brush rest on each of them. I have still never had one fall off, wear out, or fail in anyway. I even have one on my aluminum Olympic riser. For a while I used super rests but they kept breaking. I have tried a couple of times to shoot off the shelf but never had a really good tune. I suppose I should try again so my bow would technically qualify for traditional, but the rules never seemed to make any sense. Shooting off the brush rest seems traditional to me.... more so, than using bows with endangered rainforest hardwoods, or carbon arrows, or fast flight strings, or Velcro shelf material.


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## bgbowhunter (Oct 30, 2012)

idiot....


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> 1. You're an idiot - and I mean that in the truest sense of the word. There's NO logical reason to shoot off the shelf on a bow that allows a rest.
> 
> 
> Viper1 out.


And THERE is the Viper 1 we have all come to know and love so much.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

I have and would continue to shoot off the shelf with a bow designed for an elevated rest. So I am one of Viper1’s idiots.

As Thin Man and others pointed out, we should not overlook that Viper1 DID NOT call those of you shooting off the shelf an idiot when the bow was not designed for an elevated rest or competition rules required shooting off the shelf. These caveats don’t help me. I remain an idiot. Since I have secretly suspected for a long time that I was an idiot, I do not feel comfortable attempting to defend not being an idiot.

I did feel somewhat relieved after reading several responses in regard to hunting. I remember the constant struggle trying to keep arrows from falling off the elevated rests on my compound bows while hunting. This led to the popularity of whisker biscuits and enclosed fall away rests.

On multiple days I had witnessed several does from my tree stand following a path along a clover field at the same time of day. There were no trees near the path. I cut down a small circular patch of chest high prairie grass from the tall prairie grass that grew up to the edge of the clover field. I picked a location that was a short distance back from the clover field with a log for sitting plus a depression left by a long gone uprooted tree for my feet. To finish my ambush, I cut a window opening in the prairie grass remaining between me and the clover field plus facing the path. I was concealed, comfortable, and the wind favored my plan. 

As the time approached for the expected encounter with the does, a big thick buck with a beautiful rack leaped from out of nowhere onto the clover field directly in front of my window. The buck immediately began lazily grazing on the clover. His head was down looking away from me. It was a perfect 3 to 5 yard quartering away shot with perfect lighting and the breeze blowing towards me. The buck was perfectly oblivious to my presence so close to him.

I could not believe my good fortune as I started to pull the bow string back with my release aid. Suddenly I seemed to simultaneously hear a loud metallic ringing bell while the buck instantly warped a startling distance away plus continued to streak away at light speed. I was confused and actually had that sort of feeling when one is in shock. Where the hell was that bell? Who the hell had rang that bell? Was there a PETA problem on my father-in-laws farm?

I realized my **** aluminum arrow had fallen off my **** elevated rest and had struck the side of my **** metal riser! I sure wish that I had been shooting off the shelf that day.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

fall - 

You make some valid points, fortunately they aren't the ones you were trying to make. 

Couple of things, first and most importantly, do-do happens, deal with it.

Now, if a rest is set up properly, then anything that will knock an arrow off a rest will knock it off a shelf. 
IOWs, YOU knocked the arrow off the rest. 

Next, a "hunting" rest may not be the same as an Olympic rest. Rests for hunting bows can be a flipper, feather, brush or like Joe pointed out a shelf that has been modified to be a rest, or at least act like one. 

Then there's the problem of metal arrows and metal bows. Well, I guess that would require that you shoot wood arrows off a wooden bow, probably off your knuckle. If that's what you think is necessary or even just what you want to do, then fine, go for it. 

The reality is, that people have been using metal arrows and bows with various types of rests for over 1/2 a century. Only now do some people find their midden faults. 

Like I said, any reason that can be made for not using a rest, can be debunked pretty quickly both in theory and practice (exceptions given). I'm not telling you not to, I just suggesting you understand why you're doing it or why you're being an idiot .. always happy to see things taken the way they were meant. 

fall - you do realize this wasn't directed at you, right?

Viper1 out.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> ……………….All of the advantages the neo-trad types claim there is shooting off the shelf can be shot down both in theory and in practice. I guess you noticed some one brought up *the alternate fact that you shouldn't cant a bow with a rest *... ……………..Viper1 out.


I am very interested in the above shooting off the shelf comments from Viper1. I apologize should this be thoroughly explained in Viper1’s book. His comprehensive book is so densely packed with an overwhelming quantity of expert information that I can only absorb a certain portion during each re-read. Also it sometimes seems that my mind is just not yet prepared to understand what is being presented. During several re-reads I have recognized that some issue I had been fretting about and discussing had been right in front of me in Viper1’s book the entire time without my previous comprehension.

In the past I owned two VHS tapes from archery trick shots similar to Byron Ferguson. They were unknown to me prior to buying their videos, but the videos depicted them performing for audiences all across the U.S. and Europe with the claim that they were exceedingly well known “famous” archery trick shots. Unfortunately, the VHS tapes are long gone now. I do not remember their names.

One of the famous archery trick shots in one of the video was promoting the hunting advantages for shooting compound bows canted without sights. He claimed that the secret to successfully shooting compound bows canted required shooting off the shelf. His video provided a visual demonstration to prove his assertion. At least to my untrained eye the visual demonstration seemed quite compelling. At the time I had no interest in ever shooting a compound bow canted off the shelf, so I did not question the information. But I remembered and pigeon holed this interesting fact or possibly alternate fact.

It is still difficult for me to understand how the taped shooting session could be untrue. As the compound bow was shot off an elevated rest from various positions from canted at an extreme left angle to vertical and then over to various positions until canted to an extreme right angle while being rotated about the axis of the bow arm, the impacts of the arrow groups formed an arc pattern on the large white target. There was a huge difference in the locations of impact depending on the rotation of the elevated rest that was located a significant distance above the bow hand. When the exact same thing was repeated shooting off the shelf, there was virtually no change in the impacts as the same bow was canted from left to right about the axis of the bow arm with the arrow sitting on top of the bow hand.

Was this a trick or some sort of optical illusion?


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> fall -
> 
> You make some valid points, fortunately they aren't the ones you were trying to make.
> 
> ...


Yes I did recognize that the instructive comment to answer a question was not meant to specifically target me, but I felt humiliated (and yes, momentarily angry) when I recognized how much that answer definitely applied to me. HEY! I resemble that remark – LOL.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

fall - 

The fallacy about not being able to cant a bow equipped with an elevated rest comes from the theory of "instinctive" shooting. You know, the point and shoot/burn a hole in the target - but don't "aim" theory. In fact, good "instinctive" shooters aim off the arrow - so the cant doesn't really enter into the equation. It gets more complicated, since when a lot of people cant, they also mess up their alignment, but that's another discussion. Don't know where the compound thing came from, but the theory is the same. 

Shooting with a real sight is a different story, but there are even ways of working around that - IF you are willing to put the time into it. 

The point I was trying to make about your post was that is how a lot of "myths" get started. Somebody states something, someone else has a somewhat similar experience, both are somewhat vocal about it - and next thing you know it's a fact - despite tons of evidence to the contrary. 

Viper1 out.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I shoot off the shelf because I can and I like it.


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## redribbon (Feb 19, 2015)

I always liked shooting my sky off the shelf. Now I think I like it even better. There is a satisfaction in simplicity that works. This time of year my heavy fish arrow flys just fine.


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## shekwebb (Nov 2, 2016)

This thread got me thinking more about a Border Bows Black Douglas I bought from a friend at my range. He had it setup off of the shelf. I contacted Border Bows and asked them how the manufacturer recommends shooting the bow. I like how Sid put it. (Paraphrasing) Both the Black Douglas and Covert Hunter are shot off the shelf or elevated rest. It is your choice. An elevated rest is a bit more forgiving though. I will take a little forgiveness from my bow from time to time. So, I will start shooting the Black Douglas off an elevated rest.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

fallhunt said:


> Yes I did recognize that the instructive comment to answer a question was not meant to specifically target me, but I felt humiliated (and yes, momentarily angry) when I recognized how much that answer definitely applied to me. HEY! I resemble that remark – LOL.


No, that was a stone cast in my garden.

I couldn't care less. There is no doubt that an elevated rest reduces the amount of contact between bow and arrow thus producing less friction. That's a good thing.

However, if you compare canting a bow with and without an elevated rest, you will discover that the dominant eye's effect on the site picture changes when you cant with an elevated rest. That has nothing to do with instinctive shooting and aiming. It has to do with geometry and math.

But, actually, I regret getting involved in this thread at all, because at the end of the day the OP really only wants Viper's feedback anyway. Why I decided to pop in here is beyond me, but it does remind me why I don't come to this forum very much.


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

Markjoel60, surprises me you'd say that the OP only wanted vipers opinion on this. Reread my last sentence of the original post. I wanted to hear from everyone. I wish we could all move on to archers helping archers, and not worry so much about the way it was worded so much, but rather the message, or meat of it. I came here to learn about traditional archery, and becoming a better shooter. I choose to believe that everyone who's responded to my questions are sincerely trying to help me. Lunger


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