# Antis win one with the help of a forgein Govenor



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

What do you expect when biology is exploited by politics... and Schwarzenegger is not a republican, remember, he is a socialist.


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## Yellowfin (Mar 6, 2007)

Recall him? It's been done before.


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## igorts (Apr 18, 2007)

Yellowfin said:


> Recall him? It's been done before.


I won't vote for him next time, for sure. Such a traitor


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## outdoorattic (Feb 25, 2006)

I have read someplace that all lead ammo will be replaced in the future. I think it was on a Modern Marvels episode.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Not mine...


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## wind in face (Apr 29, 2003)

Kalifornia is getting theirs now.


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Why all the fuss over the ban of a lethal poison? It is good to ban lead. 

If hunters can not use all copper bullets and steel and nontoxic shots to take our games, we shouldn't be hunting. The Barne's TSX bullet is better than any lead alloy I have seen. Bismouth and Tungston shots are heavier and penetrates better than any lead shots available. 

Why can't we use the alternatives instead of being driven "out of the field"?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Hey X-shocker... speak for yourself. I use lead bullets in my muzzleloader. Copper won't work bub. Do you even KNOW anything of that suit? Have you read the testimony and who from? Your telling me that after reading all of the "science" that they did you can blame lead bullets? How many lead bullets do you know stay in an animal? I've had in all of my years of muzzleloading only one bullet remain in the animal. So the condor is scouring the countryside lead fragments?

There is a lot of lead in the environment, naturally. They don't KNOW what is causing the lead in the condor is the issue.


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## NativeWay (Oct 9, 2007)

I have a question. Does anybody know if this is lead shot, like from shotgun shells? Or is it all lead? I haven’t been able to shoot lead shot for years, at least on public land while duck hunting. Is there a lot of rifle hunting that will be affected by this? We all bit&*ed when they made us go to steel shot, but it worked out fine, and if there really an issue with the condors ingesting lead, then as “Sportsmen” we should be for conservation of all animals, not just the tasty ones.


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Rattus,

Lead is on its way out. Deal with it.

Some muzzleloader bullets are copper coated, right? So why wouldn't all copper work? Change with the time, bub. (Whatever bub means)


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## Yellowfin (Mar 6, 2007)

NativeWay said:


> I have a question. Does anybody know if this is lead shot, like from shotgun shells? Or is it all lead? I haven’t been able to shoot lead shot for years, at least on public land while duck hunting. Is there a lot of rifle hunting that will be affected by this? We all bit&*ed when they made us go to steel shot, but it worked out fine, and if there really an issue with the condors ingesting lead, then as “Sportsmen” we should be for conservation of all animals, not just the tasty ones.


When it's not merely a thinly disguised attack at hunting and gun rights in total, certainly. The steel shot thing was purely for practical purposes, not designed to make people stay at home and/or kill off ammo producers.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

x-shocker said:


> Rattus,
> 
> Lead is on its way out. Deal with it.
> 
> Some muzzleloader bullets are copper coated, right? So why wouldn't all copper work? Change with the time, bub. (Whatever bub means)


Why should I deal with it X? Condors don't find lead in carcasses. Why should I fold like a lawn chair, as you are, to environmentalist BS? Why shouldn't I contest something that is not accurate? You can conform your way out of hunting period if you want to, I don't.

Do me a favor X... take a hornady, speer, I don't care... take any bullet that someone would reload and push it down your bore for me and then come back, answer your own question, then ask another.

Aloha...


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> Why should I deal with it X? Condors don't find lead in carcasses. Why should I fold like a lawn chair, as you are, to environmentalist BS? Why shouldn't I contest something that is not accurate? You can conform your way out of hunting period if you want to, I don't.
> 
> Do me a favor X... take a hornady, speer, I don't care... take any bullet that someone would reload and push it down your bore for me and then come back, answer your own question, then ask another.
> 
> Aloha...


Rattus,

How does supporting non-poisonous ammunitions automatically makes me "fold to the environmentalist BS"?

We are spending millions of dollars cleaning up our millitary ranges right now. If lead is not bad for the environment, then why are we spending our hard earned cash on this clean up?

Going to non-toxic shots and bullets will not make you quit hunting or will not cause you any monetary strains. If buying a box of steel shot or Federal bullets loaded with Barnes X bullets is too costly, then that tank of gas you put into your pickup truck will cost you an arm and a leg. Therefore, if you can not afford the ~$9.99 box of steel shots or the ~$50 box of Federal Barnes X bullets, you will definitely not be able to afford the ~$80 gas for your pickup. There you have it. It is not the price of ammo causing the average Joe to quit hunting, but the price of gas.

Why don't we cry about the price of gas? Because, gas is not considered a part of our sport, like bullets. Boo, hoo, hoo...

BTW: I spent $49.99 on a box of 300 Win Mag Federal: Barnes Triple-Shock X- bullets. I got 20 bullets. So far I have traded 3 bullets for 3 deer. That makes it $2.50 per bullet per deer.

I spent between $60 and $70 on gas per trip. I make two trips per weekend. The weekend trips cost me between $120 and $140. 

What is the most costly part of my hunting adventure? Definitely not the $2.50 bullets.

Get with the times...


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## Strutter Cutter (Jun 28, 2004)

*No comparison*



x-shocker said:


> Why all the fuss over the ban of a lethal poison? It is good to ban lead.
> 
> If hunters can not use all copper bullets and steel and nontoxic shots to take our games, we shouldn't be hunting. The Barne's TSX bullet is better than any lead alloy I have seen. Bismouth and Tungston shots are heavier and penetrates better than any lead shots available.
> 
> Why can't we use the alternatives instead of being driven "out of the field"?



No copper solid bullet is going to be as good as lead, period. If all you want is an entry and exit hole, your "premium" copper bullets is what you need. Massive hemorrhage is what kills quickest and NO solid or partition type will compare with a standard Sierra Gameking type bullet. End of story.

I didn't think Bismuth was hardly as heavy as lead. Doesn't matter, same reason as above.

Tungston is heavier and will penetrate further. DO YOU KNOW WHY? The MAIN reason is because it's HARDER. No flattening, no expansion. It's better than steel only because it's heavier. 

There may be replacements but there are NO EQUALS to LEAD. Yet anyway.


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## awshucks (Mar 4, 2006)

Traditional muzzle loader shooters use patched round ball, and yes it needs to be lead. The lands in the rifling press the cloth patch into the ball, which can result in amazing accuracy as well as being historically accurate or correct.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi Awshucks... My muzzleloaders do in fact use lead balls and conicals and I cast my own. Bismuth and such don't melt well.

Aloha....


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## MNmike (Dec 27, 2003)

*lead*

And what are the costs going to be to the people that shoot 10000 or 100000 rounds anually?

You start shooting a hard penetrating centerfire and the next thing is they will want to ban it due to it's "armor" piercing qualities.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

repeat after me.

there is NO LEAD IN SLICK TRICKS.
if they really love to hunt they will switch to bow or switch their ammo.

if you dont believe lead kills, well,,,,,,.

besides it was not the antis who helped get this passed, it was the CRPA & GOC that kept pushing Arnold, well,, he did not like it & he pushed back.

if this 2 organizations would have followed the NRA lead & left the big boy alone we would not be in this situation.


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Strutter Cutter said:


> No copper solid bullet is going to be as good as lead, period. If all you want is an entry and exit hole, your "premium" copper bullets is what you need. Massive hemorrhage is what kills quickest and NO solid or partition type will compare with a standard Sierra Gameking type bullet. End of story.
> 
> There may be replacements but there are NO EQUALS to LEAD. Yet anyway.


Actually, the Barnes X-bullets are superior to the Sierra Gameking. If you want devastation, the X-bullets will out perform the Sierra Gameking any day.

What kills the quickest is a good shot to the brains. NO twitching, no freezing up; just "drop it like it's hot".



> And what are the costs going to be to the people that shoot 10000 or 100000 rounds anually?


Well, the question should really be, "what will the cost be for cleaning up after the guys who shoots 10000 or 100000 rounds anually?"

It is all the more reason to use non-toxic rounds. Don't you think?



> You start shooting a hard penetrating centerfire and the next thing is they will want to ban it due to it's "armor" piercing qualities.


All high power rifles will penetrate policemen's handgun bullet-proof vests. Yes, even the smallish 243.

And Finally,

Yes, there is no lead in "Slick Tricks". Unfortunately, all I can afford for now is Wasps.:embara:


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> Hi Awshucks... My muzzleloaders do in fact use lead balls and conicals and I cast my own. Bismuth and such don't melt well.
> 
> Aloha....


Yeah, you're right. My bad.


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## huntfish25 (May 29, 2004)

tthe damage is done. it hard to remove a law from the book is to put one on it. the antis won this and we will suffer for it and any hunter who think this is a good thing just wait see how good it is in 10 years. you was for warn now we will pay


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## Yellowfin (Mar 6, 2007)

All the more reason why the Californian liberalism needs to be curtailed. It is nothing less than a foreign invasion which needs to be addressed and repelled.


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Yellowfin said:


> All the more reason why the Californian liberalism needs to be curtailed. It is nothing less than a foreign invasion which needs to be addressed and repelled.


Not all bans are bad. This is one of them. Hunt safe, hunt responsibly!!!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I can't think of a ban that is not bad offhand except to ban illegal aliens. Can you tell me of others that I am escaping... and many things do escape me... :darkbeer:

Aloha.. :beer:


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## Strutter Cutter (Jun 28, 2004)

*X Shocker*

You have a poor understanding of what devestation is. You obviously need more experience. No bullet that holds together as they claim the x bullet does, 100% weight retention, no bullet like that will ever create the wound channel that a leaded bullet will. It's really simple. After a multitude of field tests, you would understand. SC


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Strutter Cutter said:


> You have a poor understanding of what devestation is. You obviously need more experience. No bullet that holds together as they claim the x bullet does, 100% weight retention, no bullet like that will ever create the wound channel that a leaded bullet will. It's really simple. After a multitude of field tests, you would understand. SC


Which lead bullet are you talking about? (I hope you are not talking about a Ballistic Tipped bullet.) Show me a wound channel and I will show you a TSX wound channel.


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## camotoe (Sep 19, 2006)

Probably more lead in the landfills and dumps from Chinese toys than what sporstmen put out there...maybe they should start addressing the lead that KIDS are exposed to instead of stray pellets from a 12 gage JMO. By the way, when they recall the toys, that are contaminated with lead...where do they put them? Are they sent back to China? What do THEY do with them, aside from probably repackeaging them and sending them to India or S. America...just wondering


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Now that is about the smartest thing been said on here.... 

Aloha  :beer:


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## Strutter Cutter (Jun 28, 2004)

*I'm anxious to see*



x-shocker said:


> Which lead bullet are you talking about? (I hope you are not talking about a Ballistic Tipped bullet.) Show me a wound channel and I will show you a TSX wound channel.


This will be interesting.
I don't have access to ballistic gelatin or anything like that. I do however have real world examples that are easy to visualize and understand. 

This is hijacking this thread so we need to do this elsewhere. That, and the pics that I have are kinda gory. I'll have to scan them in order to be able to send them electronically. PM me with your email addy and I'll send them when I can get them scanned. It'll take a couple of days so be patient. I doubt anyone else was following this anyway. Before I go to the trouble, please tell me that you have something significant besides a hole in and a hole out. SC


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Strutter Cutter said:


> This will be interesting.
> I don't have access to ballistic gelatin or anything like that. I do however have real world examples that are easy to visualize and understand.
> 
> This is hijacking this thread so we need to do this elsewhere. That, and the pics that I have are kinda gory. I'll have to scan them in order to be able to send them electronically. PM me with your email addy and I'll send them when I can get them scanned. It'll take a couple of days so be patient. I doubt anyone else was following this anyway. Before I go to the trouble, please tell me that you have something significant besides a hole in and a hole out. SC


http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/x-citing-facts/


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## Strutter Cutter (Jun 28, 2004)

*Ok*

I see where you get HALF of your information. WHAT exactly are you comparing that too? If that's the only place that you get your information I can understand your......thinking. They sound convincing. 

As far as OUR discussion goes about wound channel, it's pretty simple. IF they created a better one, they'd SHOW the comparison. 

That aside, That's some cool video! I'd like to see a bullet with better performance going lengthways like theirs. I doubt the gellatin would hold together. I'd be willing to bet a Sierra Spitzer Boattail .308" 180 grain bullet, which is the same weight and diameter as theirs, would blow the column half in two because of the much larger wound channel. I said half in two. I can assure you it would be pretty spectacular. I've seen evidence of it.

I appreciate you pointing that video out. I'll never need a bullet like that for anything with antlers. If I ever get to hunt kudu or gemsbuck, they might be the ticket. Although, IF I did get to hunt in Africa, I think I'd rather use my bow, lol.


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## x-shocker (Jan 25, 2007)

Strutter Cutter said:


> I see where you get HALF of your information. WHAT exactly are you comparing that too? If that's the only place that you get your information I can understand your......thinking. They sound convincing.
> 
> As far as OUR discussion goes about wound channel, it's pretty simple. IF they created a better one, they'd SHOW the comparison.
> 
> ...


Strutter,

I will shoot a deer down the middle and show you the wound channel. But that will have to wait till next year and it may not be allowed on here.

We both agree that it is wound channel that kills. However, a deep wound channel kills better than a shallow one. I can tell you that I have put basketball size wound channels in deer and they kept on going, like the freaking Energizer bunny. Those basketball size wound channels were created by Nosler ballistic tipped bullets in 300 Win Mag. Hit the shoulder blade, at 25 yards, and it exploded like a hand gernade; didn't even exit. After that, I switched to Remington Core-lockt bullets (sp.). Took a chest-on shot (50 yards down the wind wind pipe) at a medium sized buck and the magled copper jacket of the core-lockt bullet ended up in the kidney. The lead had melted during the plunge. That was enough lead for me. Now, I'm using Barnes TSX bullets. Shot a huge buck this season up the arse. The bullet ended up in the lung with 100 percent weight retention. The bullet destroyed the pelvic bone and created the ultimate messy, stink soup. All the inners were shredded to pieces. 

Yes the best kills are with bow and arrow. I could only pull 65 lbs max, and set my Stiletto 380 at 60: hope that's enough for African games.


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