# Courtesy targets??



## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Hmm.. I'd better finish repairing these last couple tonite... :mg: 

Thanks for tryin Ed... :noidea: :cheers:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> OK I didn't get the memo. I was told today that we no longer use courtesy targets in field shoots. When did this happen? I was putting out targets for tomorrows State Shoot and was told by the NFAA Director that we no longer use the courtesy targets. I cannot wait to see what the BIG DOGS do when it comes to shooting the 40, 45 yarders. I believe there will be some damaged arrows this weekend. The only target to get 2 targets is the 35 and 36 fan. Good luck to those that are shooting the Maryland State Field Championship this weekend.:darkbeer:


Absolute BS if you ask me...............THIS is why field archery is on the downs................you've got clubs and orgs that are too cheap to hang an extra 8 faces and have the participants wreck arrows, have countless kiss outs and it tears the few faces they hang up that much quicker.

CLubs like Cumberland that double hang ALL 50cm are doing it right!!!

Hell in Darrington and Yankton they didn't double hang and there were very few "extra" face at the butts when the first one got tore up!!! Same story in Watkins Glen for the Mids this year too!!!

Just one more low brow move by the NFAA!!!!



IGluIt4U said:


> Hmm.. I'd better finish repairing these last couple tonite... :mg:
> 
> Thanks for tryin Ed... :noidea: :cheers:


Exactly!!!


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

We always double our targets on fans . The extra costs for all the extra targets for a whole shoot is less than the costs of ONE arrow. So we will keep doing it that way no matter what.


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> OK I didn't get the memo. I was told today that we no longer use courtesy targets in field shoots. When did this happen? I was putting out targets for tomorrows State Shoot and was told by the NFAA Director that we no longer use the courtesy targets. I cannot wait to see what the BIG DOGS do when it comes to shooting the 40, 45 yarders. I believe there will be some damaged arrows this weekend. The only target to get 2 targets is the 35 and 36 fan. Good luck to those that are shooting the Maryland State Field Championship this weekend.:darkbeer:


I never got the memo either. Somebody please tell me the point in this ridiculous statement made by the NFAA director.

Ed stand up proud and hang the targets anyway. 

I'm betting you the targets would have been double hung at Cumberland and if the director did not like it I personally would escort him from the premises.


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## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

wv has been said:


> i never got the memo either. Somebody please tell me the point in this ridiculous statement made by the nfaa director.
> 
> Ed stand up proud and hang the targets anyway.
> 
> I'm betting you the targets would have been double hung at cumberland and if the director did not like it i personally would escort him from the premises.



ditto!!!!


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

That is crazy. I know the shooters really appreciate it when I started hanging double faces at DCWC. Added bonus, less arrow smashing, dots dont get blown out quickly, less wear and tear on target bails.

I have seen a big swing in the types of arrows being shot outdoors the past few years. A lot of big fat diameter carbon stuff and tiny high dollar target arrows are being used. I know with all those Fat Boys, Linejammers, Bemans being shot at my arrows I wish everyone had there own doy to shoot at at every distance.

Why is this even a question?
Seems like a total no brainer for me!


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## WrongdayJ (May 22, 2008)

There are two schools of thought in matters like these (and they are applicable to work, home, and situations like this):

1. Some will say, "I need to make more money."

2. Some will say, "I need to spend less money."

Both of these paths accomplish similar results, and should be used together _in moderation _for the best results. Extremes in either direction are usually not good.

By putting up the extra targets, you choose option #1- make more money. People will actually show up and pay to shoot in your event at your course because it is more shooter-friendly _*for the Archer *_(not as many damaged arrows or kiss-outs costing points). 

By taking down the targets. . .you choose Option #2- spend less money. Although I would argue that having the target faces shot up 3 times faster would work out the end to be more of a hastle for the range master and cost just as much in the long run. But theoretically lets argue that not hanging the targets saves you 10% of your operating costs in a month. . .but NOBODY shows at your events and your monthly cash intake drops 25%. . .or more. . .spending less costs you more than you gain.

I'm all for reducing _waste_, but cutting out things that are very helpful in the name of trimming costs is always a :nono: 

I see this ALL THE TIME where I work. They will buy the cheap tools three times instead of a high quality piece once.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

There is no NFAA rule or otherwise that restricts a host from hanging as many target faces at any distance they want to. If a club has butts large enough, they can hang four each 65 CM targets on the 80 yard target if they want, for any tournament, championship or otherwise.

Furthermore, no NFAA director of any state has the authority to dictate to any host of any championship tournament anywhere that they cannot double hang targets at any distance.

Sounds like some stingy SOB is trying to cheat the shooters on target faces.

Also sounds like someone needs to receive a tangible explanation.

Could be that the host is trying to blame their own stingy shortsightedness on the NFAA director.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

FS560 said:


> There is no NFAA rule or otherwise that restricts a host from hanging as many target faces at any distance they want to. If a club has butts large enough, they can hang four each 65 CM targets on the 80 yard target if they want, for any tournament, championship or otherwise.
> 
> Furthermore, no NFAA director of any state has the authority to dictate to any host of any championship tournament anywhere that they cannot double hang targets at any distance.
> 
> ...


No, that is not the case here.. the targets were hung and had to be removed. I have shot this course all summer long.. it's always had courtesy targets pasted up. :noidea:


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

As I said, no NFAA director has the authority to require a host to remove double hung targets at any distance. If Ron West did that, then he overstepped his authority. He should be required to show the passage in the bylaws that provides for only single hung targets at any distance or giving him that authority. It does not exist.


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## rudeman (Jan 25, 2006)

The NFAA By-Laws are very specific about this. In both the Field and the Hunter rounds, each contains the following:

"2.1 Multiple targets may be used at all distances"​
Obviously, the NFAA Director in question needs to review the By-Laws he/she is supposed to be supporting.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

FS560 said:


> As I said, no NFAA director has the authority to require a host to remove double hung targets at any distance. If Ron West did that, then he overstepped his authority. He should be required to show the passage in the bylaws that provides for only single hung targets at any distance or giving him that authority. It does not exist.


Director name is Ron West This was brought to my attention on Friday evening I do not have the most recent NFAA regs. It was brought up during hanging of the targets on Friday evening. I was told by the past MAA president and in turn she called our Director and he said NOT to put up the targets something about new regs that became effective June 1st.


rudeman said:


> The NFAA By-Laws are very specific about this. In both the Field and the Hunter rounds, each contains the following:
> 
> "2.1 Multiple targets may be used at all distances"​
> Obviously, the NFAA Director in question needs to review the By-Laws he/she is supposed to be supporting.


Like I said this is suppose to be a new Reg. So we did like good soldiers and used only doubles on the 35 fan and nothing else. Same for tommorow only doubling up the 36 fan. I guess we were lucky in a way that we only had approx. 50 shooters If this is true then I feel that this needs to be address for future shoots.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

FS560 said:


> There is no NFAA rule or otherwise that restricts a host from hanging as many target faces at any distance they want to. If a club has butts large enough, they can hang four each 65 CM targets on the 80 yard target if they want, for any tournament, championship or otherwise.
> 
> Furthermore, no NFAA director of any state has the authority to dictate to any host of any championship tournament anywhere that they cannot double hang targets at any distance.
> 
> ...


As far as stingy SOB well I resent that remark. I do not try and save money. I had a banner made to welcome the archers, Put out bottled water for the archers that is FREE. Put up multiple practice targets (We do not recycle any targets on shoot days) The ranges are blown clean and the grass is cut. Bales are rebuilt and markers repainted. So unless you know what you are speaking please keep your comments to yourself. You are only making matters worst.


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> As far as stingy SOB well I resent that remark. I do not try and save money. I had a banner made to welcome the archers, Put out bottled water for the archers that is FREE. Put up multiple practice targets (We do not recycle any targets on shoot days) The ranges are blown clean and the grass is cut. Bales are rebuilt and markers repainted. So unless you know what you are speaking please keep your comments to yourself. You are only making matters worst.


Ed, I hope he was referring to Ron as the cheap SOB and NOT you..............at least I hope!!!

I will stand behind Ed on this that HE has done a TON of work and spent personnal $$$$ to make this the best State shoot I've been apart of here in MD!!!

Thanks Ed for you time, dedication, hard work, and $$$$$!!!!

It does not go overlooked!!!


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## WrongdayJ (May 22, 2008)

Rattleman said:


> . . .I do not try and save money. I had a banner made to welcome the archers, Put out bottled water for the archers that is FREE. Put up multiple practice targets (We do not recycle any targets on shoot days) The ranges are blown clean and the grass is cut. Bales are rebuilt and markers repainted. . .


All those things you mentioned are very cool. Especially the bottled water. . .nice touch indeed. I would totally love to shoot a course where the host had bottled water for the archers.

This is not a case of the host being stingy at all. . .quite the contrary. Sounds more like a case of the host being hobbled by a new (read: Lame) rule from the NFAA. I'd be very interested in knowing what the justification for this new rule is.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Tell Ron he's either being fed an overly aggressive interpretation of the new target rules by HQ, or he's just flat out wrong with his own interpretation :tongue:!

I just looked at the new '08-'09 rules and the rules pertaining to the 50cm targets specificially state that 2 targets must be hung for the 35- and 36-yd fans. The rules DO NOT specify only 1 target must be hung for the other distances using the 50cm target face. In fact, there are no rules limiting the number of 50cm faces that can be hung for the other distances and hence more than 1 can be hung at those other distances if the tournament host opts to do so. 

The new rules just now specify that 2 have to be hung for 35- and 36-yd fans. In the past a club could hang just 1 if they chose and that would have been fine per the rules, no longer the case now. But again, nothing in the new rules prohibits a club from posting more than 1 50cm for any of the other distances using that target size.

>>------->


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

CHPro,

Thanks for the clarifying explanation. It would seem the gay who caused the problem back East needs to read more carefully. Look at all the hate and discontent he caused buy simply not understanding that actual intent of the rules change.

Now everybody, go out there and hang up more targets! (smile)

Dave


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

FS560 said:


> There is no NFAA rule or otherwise that restricts a host from hanging as many target faces at any distance they want to. If a club has butts large enough, they can hang four each 65 CM targets on the 80 yard target if they want, for any tournament, championship or otherwise.
> 
> Furthermore, no NFAA director of any state has the authority to dictate to any host of any championship tournament anywhere that they cannot double hang targets at any distance.
> 
> ...





FS560 said:


> As I said, no NFAA director has the authority to require a host to remove double hung targets at any distance. If Ron West did that, then he overstepped his authority. He should be required to show the passage in the bylaws that provides for only single hung targets at any distance or giving him that authority. It does not exist.





Rattleman said:


> As far as stingy SOB well I resent that remark. I do not try and save money. I had a banner made to welcome the archers, Put out bottled water for the archers that is FREE. Put up multiple practice targets (We do not recycle any targets on shoot days) The ranges are blown clean and the grass is cut. Bales are rebuilt and markers repainted. So unless you know what you are speaking please keep your comments to yourself. You are only making matters worst.





Hinkelmonster said:


> Ed, I hope he was referring to Ron as the cheap SOB and NOT you..............at least I hope!!!
> 
> I will stand behind Ed on this that HE has done a TON of work and spent personnal $$$$ to make this the best State shoot I've been apart of here in MD!!!
> 
> ...


With the information in Ed Bowen's first message, I made two possible conclusions, one of which was wrong, as later became obvious.

No Randy, the inflamatory remarks about stingy SOBs were mistakenly directed to the host club. I stand humbly corrected and chastized.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

rudeman said:


> The NFAA By-Laws are very specific about this. In both the Field and the Hunter rounds, each contains the following:
> 
> "2.1 Multiple targets may be used at all distances"​
> Obviously, the NFAA Director in question needs to review the By-Laws he/she is supposed to be supporting.


This is in the 2008 - 2009 book, unchanged.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

After the shoot today I sat with Ron and a few others to clarify. We cannot find mention of Courtesy targets being allowed. It states that 2 targets to be hung on 35 and 36 yarders but not anywhere else. We cannot find any mention of ANY courtesy targets period. If memory serves me correctly the rule ONCE allowed for extra targets to be hung. The shooter on the right shot the right target and if they are hung on top of one another they were to be shot first up shot the lower target and second group shot the top targets. To be fair to Ron on this issue...we never found any definate info. Hopefully this can be solved prior to next years shoot. Remember we may not always agree but we must always be able to agree to disagree. Thanks


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

rudeman said:


> The NFAA By-Laws are very specific about this. In both the Field and the Hunter rounds, each contains the following:
> 
> "2.1 Multiple targets may be used at all distances"​
> Obviously, the NFAA Director in question needs to review the By-Laws he/she is supposed to be supporting.


As I stated earlier WE could not find any referece to this in the NEW rule book. BUT I must admit we argued more then we searched the book.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Here Ed, this may help.. from the current constitution and by-laws on the NFAA website.. the multiple target faces is clearly still there for both field and hunter rounds.. :nod: :wink: (see just below the target sizes table.. :zip


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

and Hunter rounds.....


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

John you heard the arguing tonight. With all that was going on no wonder we couldn't find the correct page that clarified. By the way the clubs haven't received the new and updated rulebooks at the time of this printing. Thanks for coming out this weekend. Ed


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Here are the bylaws online.. :wink:

Scroll down the doc list to NFAA Constitution and Rules.. 

http://www.nfaa-archery.org/about/documents.cfm


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> John you heard the arguing tonight. With all that was going on no wonder we couldn't find the correct page that clarified. By the way the clubs haven't received the new and updated rulebooks at the time of this printing. Thanks for coming out this weekend. Ed


hehehe.. yes, I did hear the 'discussion'.. heck, participated in it with you.. :lol:

I had to come home and search to find it. The 'courtesy' targets line has been removed. The word courtesy does not exist in the document, but the wording in the target layout section is pretty clear and well defined. Unless they change something between now and next summer, you can fill them butts up with paper if you'd like.. :archer:

Had a ball, shot mediocre, but.. I'll be back again next summer. :thumb:


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

I have never heard of the term "courtesy targets" in the NFAA bylaws. The provision "2.1 Multiple targets may be used at any distance" is clearly in the 2008 bylaws and in previous years.

It also appears in identical wording in the 2003 bylaws and has not been changed.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

FS560 said:


> I have never heard of the term "courtesy targets" in the NFAA bylaws. The provision "2.1 Multiple targets may be used at any distance" is clearly in the 2008 bylaws and in previous years.
> 
> It also appears in identical wording in the 2003 bylaws and has not been changed.


Jim I do not believe the term Courtesy targets was ever in the bylaws. That is what we refered to them as.


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Good work STICKY!!!!!!!

AS usual the NFAA could not give a valid reason for not using multiple faces, they/he only said...............

"JUST BECAUSE"


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> Good work STICKY!!!!!!!
> 
> AS usual the NFAA could not give a valid reason for not using multiple faces, they/he only said...............
> 
> "JUST BECAUSE"



Hey man, dont blame NFAA as a whole for what your own director did.


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

He acted on behalf of the NFAA. Told me with his own words this am that as NFAA director he advised NOT to use multiple faces!


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> He acted on behalf of the NFAA. Told me with his own words this am that as NFAA director he advised NOT to use multiple faces!


The question I have to ask is who in MD started the issue with the multiple faces and how was it going to affect them?

I can narrow it down to 3 people in my mind but I have no idea why.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Seems like Organizations that use archery for the vehicle are more intrested in promoteing the organization than the vehicle. :zip:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

WV Has Been said:


> The question I have to ask is who in MD started the issue with the multiple faces and how was it going to affect them?
> 
> I can narrow it down to 3 people in my mind but I have no idea why.


First, prior to this thread I had never heard the term "courtesy target", but I am quite new to the sport. :wink:

Why this would even be a topic of conversation will probably remain a mystery; however, allow me once again to speculate. 

<speculation>
Somebody, somewhere, accidentally shot the "wrong" target at a distance between 35 & 50 yds (inclusive). They caused an uproar over loosing that 3-4-5 points and pointed out that only 1 face was required at that distance. As is often the case the "discussion" got passed around and somebody else, somewhere else decided that 1 target at those distances would be the "rule".
</speculation>

But, as has been pointed out, the "courtesy" targets are not a rule violation and would most likely serve in keeping folks (archers) happy.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Well since i posted this thread I guess it is my responcibility to shut it down. This horse has been beaten enough. How about going out and having some fun. Thanks All for allowing me to vent.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Well since i posted this thread I guess it is my responcibility to shut it down. This horse has been beaten enough. How about going out and having some fun. Thanks All for allowing me to vent.


:thumb: :darkbeer:


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