# Please explain why a stiff arrow always tears in the same direction



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as a stiff shaft leaves the bow, it stays in column, with no or very little dynamic reaction. the riser reacts from the release of the shot and jumps forward and left. the point follows this jump as it starts moving, because it started out more or less attached to the riser by the rest, so it is influenced to go left with the riser as it starts out . as the string pushes the opposite end of the arrow, behind the reaction, it follows the path of the string which is more directly towards the target, thus the arrow comes out of the bow somewhat sideways with the point to the left and the nock to the right, even though it doesn't need to straighten out, because it didn't bend, it's center of gravity has been displaced to the left.......right tear.
an arrow that is closer to correct spine bends slightly as the string pushes the nock end, the point is still influenced to go left, just like the stiff arrow, only this time the arrows spine returns the arrow to column through it's displaced center of gravity, in milliseconds, as it detaches from the string and the arrow hits the paper slightly to the left of it's origin, because the arrow's center of gravity was moved to the left by the bow's reaction, but, with the point and nock in column again, ....bullet hole.
an arrow that's too soft, does exactly what the correct spine arrow does, but bends farther, so much so, that it's center of gravity has been displaced beyond it's path of flight and it's recovery leaves it slightly sideways for the fletching to correct......left tear.
with all these conditions, the point, because of it's weight, wants to remain going along it's intended flight path, all of the consequential reactions happen behind it, because of this, the entire length of the arrow moves in a radius around the point as it reacts, so the results show as a tear in direct consequence to how stiff or soft the shaft is, as described above.
of course, all these scenarios are reversed for a lefty.


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## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation. If everything is aligned (archer, arrow, string, etc.), why would the riser jump left? I understand the forward piece just not the lateral displacement.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

simple geometry of your own anatomy. your bow arm comes into the bow, from your shoulder, at an angle from the left to right. when the shot breaks, your arm rotates at the shoulder, right to left.... your bow hand swinging a arc to the left,.... as well as forward as it relaxes from being compressed by the bow. if you could somehow, stand with your bow shoulder directly in line with the arrow, then the bow's reaction would be all straight at the target.


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## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks again. I assume there is a point where the movement in minimized due to the archer and some mechanical advantage. The movement must also be why a slightly bent bow arm moving towards the target at release is a benefit as opposed to a stiff, locked out elbow. If this movement is unavoidable, then repeatability of form can reduce its effect on the shot?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Also consider, spine has to be tremendously stiff or tremendously weak to give tears associated with stiff or weak spine arrows. Even point has to be tremendous one way or the other to cause effect, provided all else is correct and bow set up properly.

I have tried my used target (paper and 3D) to see if point weight would deteriorate or improve accuracy, forgoing shooting through paper after the bow was French tuned. I went a bit overboard, but changing from a 80 gr glue-in point up through 191 grs of point weight had no ill effect on accuracy in the 20 to 30 yard range. The only correction needed was that of vertical. There was a good hint of point of impact shifting to the left at the end of the test - still hitting the X ring, but on the left edge. Other that came was the 47 gr insert with 85 gr field point seemed more forgiving. Bow used was the Martin Shadowcat set to 56 pounds and using Muddy Outdoors HT3 arrows (spine equivalent of Carbon Express CXL 250s). Sight correction performed, no less than 15 shots per point weight change were made. Again, distances of 20 and 30 yards indoors and paper tearing tests. I have pictures of the targets, but like someone would say; anyone can stick a arrow in a target. 
At the archery shop my norm practice is from 30 yards.
Weight spread of 111 grs.
Point weight list; 80 gr glue-in. (lightest FOC of 5.96%) (depending who's speaking, 6 and 7% is considered minimum, accuracy being the main factor)
47 gr insert with 85 gr field point. (largest jump from initial point weight, 52 gr, total = 132 grs)
47 gr insert with 100 gr field point. Total = 147 grs)
47 gr insert with 125 gr field point. (weighed, 123 grs) Total = 170 grs)
47 gr insert with 145 gr field point. (weighed, 144 grs) Total = 191 grs)


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

Very Good explanation Ron.

I might add that a VERY stiff shaft CANNOT flex so the tear will NEVER change using a bare shaft. The arrow will fly sideways. (minimal changes due to large FOC however) It will become less pronounced with a fletched shaft as the veins correct the flight as the arrow moves downrange. Then the tear will become smaller with distance..

The object of "Bare Shaft" tuning is to determine IF the stiffness (flex) of the shaft it enough to bring the arrow flight into proper alignment *at point blank range*. Then we let the veins take over to fine tune and correct for perfect flight. Huge veins mask tuning problems but small ones work well when mated to a properly tuned Bow/Shaft combo.

Bare shaft is to be used only FEET away..NOT yards.
6 feet
12 feet


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Ron and three put up some good info. Still, still bows of various draw weight can handle more than one spine of arrow and be perfectly accurate. And distance can play into the picture. Of course proper build of arrow is desired. I'd example using another person's target arrow in my bow with no changes. I was using CXL 250s at the time and my Hoyt ProElite. field14 had me try his 30X Gold Tips. Heavy and larger in diameter, they were. At 20 yards all five of his arrows impacted at 7:00 on the edge of the bull's eye at 20 yards. I couldn't have walked up and stuck them in the target any more identical. All that was needed was adjust my sights and I could have competed quite easily for the 20 yards.


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## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks again. I'm learning quite a lot. Just how much is tremendously different? .300 to .400 or bigger jump? It also seems the archer has a lot to do with the tear. If the archer's form is bad the arrow cannot compensate for the initial movement (jump left) and no spine adjustment will fix this. How much of the fine tuning of a bow relies upon the archer being consistent?

Sonny, the lender arrows were precise just not accurate with you at the bow. Can I assume you were consistent enough to have the arrows be precise and the sight adjustments made the combination of you and the new arrows accurate?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

snowshovler said:


> Thanks again. I'm learning quite a lot. Just how much is tremendously different? .300 to .400 or bigger jump? It also seems the archer has a lot to do with the tear. If the archer's form is bad the arrow cannot compensate for the initial movement (jump left) and no spine adjustment will fix this. How much of the fine tuning of a bow relies upon the archer being consistent?


Somewhere in my "stored stuff" I was once tested for accuracy using a CXL 150 (70 gr glue-in with 20 gr weight), CXL 250 (insert with 75 gr field point and CXL 350 (insert with 100 gr field point) and all were accurate. So light spine of .495 to heavier spine of .332. All proved excellent for accuracy from 10 yards back to 30 yards. I used the CXL 150 and 250s very successfully in spots and 3D.

Paper tuning does have a lot to do with the archer. And bad tears do not translate to bad accuracy or grouping. Once I French tune and know the bow is in tune I could less what shooting paper shows. And French tuning isn't a final step. Once French tuned you then play with the nocking point or rest height to see if groups can be tightened up.
If said once it's been said thousands of times by hundreds, even thousands of archers, paper tuning is but one step of tuning a bow.
You more or less have the answer, consistency is the key. It's been proven that even so-so tuned bows can be outstandingly accurate if the shooter does his or her part.




snowshovler said:


> Sonny, the lender arrows were precise just not accurate with you at the bow. Can I assume you were consistent enough to have the arrows be precise and the sight adjustments made the combination of you and the new arrows accurate?


Yes, being consistent and that field14's (Tom) arrows were built correctly made all work.

Understand something. My bow was tuned so well for the CXL 150s and 250s that even ripping off a vane did not detract from 20 yard accuracy. I proved this to a shooter practicing at the shop. He had a vane come off and his arrow went way off. I asked him to shoot the arrow again and again his arrow went way off. I then ripped a vane from my CXL 250 and promptly drilled a X. He had me tune his bow. I checked his initial set up, reset what I thought needed, and then I had him Walk back tunefrom 10 feet back to 30 yards - again, him shooting, me making any adjustments. He was quite happy with the results.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

"*......It also seems the archer has a lot to do with the tear. If the archer's form is bad the arrow cannot compensate*"

Yes... YOU are your own best friend and worst enemy.
Your bow hand/wrist has the most effect on the tears. If you "Torque" the bow by gripping hold of it or improperly settling the grip into your wrist, you'll NEVER get good groups! You'll be all over the place like a shotgun.

I use a sight called the "IQ". It tells me if I'm disrupting the bow with TORQUE and it SCREAMS at me even when I'm not looking at the dot.


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## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

Lots of great info in this thread. I feel much less intimidated by the tuning process now armed and dangerous with a bit of information. Thanks for sharing your knowledge accompanied by clear explanations.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

Educate yourself.
READ!

Download Easton's Shaft Selector to direct you to the right spine for your situation.
Set a favorite link to Gold Tip so you can "Build Your Own Arrow" *online* - so you can obtain the arrow you want to perform as you want and weigh what you want when complete.
Download Easton's Tuning Guide #2 From Easton's web site.
Download Nuts & Bolts of Archery .pdf from this web site.

Do a simple search here for French Tuning and Walk Back Tuning.

You can drive yourself nuts trying to reach perfection but with this info and a couple brain cells you'll attain the Bow/Arrow combination that makes you a better shot even if your form totally sucks.


Then..

GET A COACH and a Video camera so he/she can show you what you are doing wrong and you can correct it.

Bill


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

three toe's right,.....
the other day, I walked into the club and there was a couple guys trying to get rid of a small 1/4 inch, or so, right tear on one guys bow. I took a look at his rest and he had it as far over as it would go. the two guys were standing there, scratching their heads, trying to figure out how to get it over a bit further. I told them," put a turn on the limb bolts"......they did and it shot perfect bullets holes........you just gotta read and learn if you're gonna work on your own stuff. later I asked him what shafts he was shooting and the weight on his bow.....58 lbs. and 2419 shafts....... imagine that. 
the point here is that these guys knew what to do as far as the basics, but they didn't learn far enough into the process to understand what is going on and why you do what you have to, to solve the problem. knowing what to do and not all of the "why it happens", can make more problems for you than you started with.


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