# Korean Champs out of World Championship team



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Oh Jin Hyek, Im Dong Hyun, Choi Bo Min and Ki Bo Bae did not make the World Championship team for Korea. We will see a new guard. Some are archers who made the National team last year but were the bottom four so they didnt get to shoot any world cup events or outside Korea. 


Mens recurve .. ........ Kim Woo Jin, Lee Woo Seok, Ku Bon Chan ( Lee Seung Yun 4th, Oh was 6th, IM was 7th) 
Womens recurve .........Chang HyeJin, Choi Mi Seon, Jeong Sung Eun ( Ki Bo Bae was 4th, Lee Tuk Young 7th) 



In Mid April the 8 national team members for each division will compete against each other again to see who will make the 4 team members for the World cup events. 

Surprising results. 


Also as a side note, i watched some of the competitions. They had a matchplay with only one arrow shoot off, which i found to be intriguing. 

They go heads up, each shoot one arrow. go down and score. set system plays. Winner advances. They do this until there is a winner. You could even do this as a round robin with 8 archers. This gets them use to shooting a one arrow shoot off. 



Chris


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

So does this mean we won't see Oh in any of the World Cup events?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

rharper said:


> So does this mean we won't see Oh in any of the World Cup events?


he has a chance still. This was for the Asian games and World Championship team. They will have another series of tournaments starting April 16th to decide who is the top four in each division to compete outside Korea at the World Cup events, and Olympic test event. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A good example I'm afraid, of why a shallower field of archers is sometimes better for the sport. Media can develop story lines and sponsors can count on contracts and delivery through exposure when they know they players won't change very often. 

A deep field where the team members change often is a media and sponsor's nightmare, I would think, and it doesn't help the fan who is trying to keep up either.

I mean, look at the PGA right now. With Tiger out and Phil struggling, it's a crap-shoot every week that Rory isn't in the field. Good for the players, but not so good for the fan base or sponsors or media. I do like the fact that it makes the media work a little harder to tell the stories though - rather than just gushing about the same few players week in and week out.


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## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

Give OH dual citizenship now!!!!! :shade:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sosius said:


> Give OH dual citizenship now!!!!! :shade:


Don't worry. I'm sure gt is on the job.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Oh would end up like that Korean female archer who tried to immigrate to the USA a little over 10 years ago. Deceived and abandoned in Mexico with a freshly voided Green Card application.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ....
> A deep field where the team members change often is a media and sponsor's nightmare, I would think, and it doesn't help the fan who is trying to keep up either......


This is the reason why the Outdoor World Cup wil never be attractive for the media and general public. You may get every years to perfect unknowns fighting for the final, while winners of the previous edition are not "allowed" to participate by their own countries. I have several time suggested to change the formula to a team event only. Media attractiveness for USA vs Italy or Russia vs France is much easier to get than for Lee vs Shin or Oh vs Kim ... But answer has been " we are at the Olympic Games as an individual sport, so the World cup has to be .. " ....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ah, follow the leader is all this sport seems to know sometimes.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

TER said:


> Oh would end up like that Korean female archer who tried to immigrate to the USA a little over 10 years ago. Deceived and abandoned in Mexico with a freshly voided Green Card application.


PLEASE elucidate on this more, if you will. It sounds like a fascinating story!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, she was tearing things up here in Texas just prior to '04. 

Nothing is ever lost on Ron Carmichael's TSAA website. 

http://www.texasarchery.org/eletters/20020530.htm


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Looks like she might have landed in Sri Lanka (maybe, the name is spelt differently)? https://www.facebook.com/colomboarcheryschool

Curious as to the 'deceived and abandoned' part...


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

kshet26 said:


> Looks like she might have landed in Sri Lanka (maybe, the name is spelt differently)? https://www.facebook.com/colomboarcheryschool
> 
> Curious as to the 'deceived and abandoned' part...


She went into Tijuana with an expired visa and couldn't get back into the US and was eventually deported. Some warned her not to go to Mexico while apparently others told her it would be ok.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

When one has applied for Permanent Residence Status (Green Card) one of the strict rules is that you must not leave the USA while the application is being processed. You may ask INS permission to leave and come back in advance if you have a foreign obligation. But you can't just go on a pleasure trip to Mexico. You will be denied entry to the USA. IIRC that's what happened. My immigration lawyer was careful to make clear to me don't leave the USA after submitting the Green Card application. Apparently her lawyer was not so careful.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

legalities, permission, rules ... that's all just soooo yesterday. 

The authorities are getting ready to release an illegal immigrant - who has TB - from custody into the general population, but they deny reentry to this highly accomplished/contributory gal .... welcome to Bizarro World.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

The two powerhouse high school football programs in Oklahoma (both in Tulsa) raid each other's districts all the time for football talent. How quickly can we fast track citizenship for Oh and Im and Ki?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

You think they would discard the pensions they've earned in Korea? Win a big event in South Korean shirt and you are basically set for life. That's how their awards process goes.

It's not a new situation for them, both have been in and around national team for years, for instance Im's been around more than ten years on top already. He's not always been in the team but for most years he has.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But you can't just go on a pleasure trip to Mexico


Pretty stupid move IMO.



> How quickly can we fast track citizenship for Oh and Im and Ki?


No thanks. I prefer home-grown talent, thank you.

Besides, what's the point of competing "for your country" when you're not even competing for your country? 

I don't get it. We don't need the Olympics to become professional baseball or football, where nobody on the team is actually FROM there.

On a political note - if all the smart, strong and courageous people from other countries leave their country to come to the U.S. instead of staying home to FIX what's wrong with their country, the world will never be a better place.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

WA world ranking as of today:

Men 
*1 LEE Seungyun	KOR	246.500
2 OH Jin Hyek	KOR	234.500*
3 Rick VAN DER VEN	NED	226.500
4 Florian KAHLLUND	GER	199.500
5 Pierre PLIHON	FRA	188.250
6 Brady ELLISON	USA	178.250
7 KU Bonchan	KOR	170.280
8 Marcus DALMEIDA	BRA	168.750
9 Hideki KIKUCHI	JPN	165.600
10 Crispin DUENAS	CAN	164.000

Women
1 XU Jing	CHN	252.500
*2 JUNG Dasomi	KOR	213.250*
3 Maja JAGER	DEN	186.500
*4 YUN Ok Hee	KOR	184.250*
5 CHANG Hye Jin	KOR	182.500
6 Elena RICHTER	GER	174.000
*7 JOO Hyun Jung	KOR	171.000*
8 Tatiana SEGINA	RUS	170.250
9 Lisa UNRUH	GER	160.500
10 Karina WINTER GER	159.750

Nbr. 1 and 2 Men and Nbr. 2,4,7 women will not participate to World Championships, in addition to Nbr. 16 in women , the Olympic champion KI Bo Bae.
They may also end up to be out of the World Cup, too... 
This is really a significant problem, while last year "problem" was limited to Ki Bo Bae only.
I think is time for WA to change the rules and create a rule that makes compulsory to the Nations to send the reigning World and Olympic Champions to the main WA events. Otherwise no sponsor will invest anymore money in our sport, and also IOC may have doubts about the reality of our sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I completely agree Vittorio, that it is a problem.

However, there must be a balance between name-recognition to grow the sport, and fairness in qualifying. I'm not sure what that point is though.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Pretty stupid move IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree - I was mostly being flippant, with an oblique dig at our inability to produce lately homegrown talent that can compete for podium finishes at world events (always excepting Brady in that lament, of course). Although, Khatuna is an exception(al) case.

Zal, I hadn't thought of the 'pension' angle!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

When I watch the Olympics, I don't want to see a bunch of transplant athletes who are moving around the globe to compete for other countries, or find countries with weak teams they feel they can make in order to get to the Olympics. 

That's not the spirit of the Games, and not fair competition IMO. 

For professional sports like Baseball, Soccer, Basketball, etc. that's different. Those athletes are paid by their owner to play for them. 

But IMO athletes who compete in the Olympics should be FROM the country they compete for. As in, born there.

I mean, what's to keep an athlete with dual citizenship from competing in the Olympic trials events in the country with the weaker field? I suspect that has happened more than once.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I completely agree Vittorio, that it is a problem.
> 
> However, there must be a balance between name-recognition to grow the sport, and fairness in qualifying. I'm not sure what that point is though.


And, really, this sport is so absolutely objective in its performance determinants, with 'being the best' requiring such a knife's edge balance of training/performance/differentiating, if a rule protects the Olympic champ and World Cup champs to have a slot on the team, how to insure that those archers bring their 'A' game?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> When I watch the Olympics, I don't want to see a bunch of transplant athletes who are moving around the globe to compete for other countries, or find countries with weak teams they feel they can make in order to get to the Olympics.
> 
> That's not the spirit of the Games, and not fair competition IMO.
> 
> ...


Agree. I lament that transience in Major League baseball, too.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> When I watch the Olympics, I don't want to see a bunch of transplant athletes who are moving around the globe to compete for other countries, or find countries with weak teams they feel they can make in order to get to the Olympics.
> 
> That's not the spirit of the Games, and not fair competition IMO.
> 
> ...


 The criteria seems a little too narrow to me John. What would you do with Khatuna? There can never be an ex patriot shooting for your team?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I might add, the meritocracy, which is archery, is refreshing to me. You don't put up the scores, you don't play. That is the American way. The Koreans embrace it, as they should.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, this is a reason I believe in our sport. However, for promotional purposes, it's not that helpful. Again, there must be a balance.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

lksseven said:


> And, really, this sport is so absolutely objective in its performance determinants, with 'being the best' requiring such a knife's edge balance of training/performance/differentiating, if a rule protects the Olympic champ and World Cup champs to have a slot on the team, how to insure that those archers bring their 'A' game?


When the Koreans make the World Championship team by a single arrow Robin round, everyone should note that they don't care at all who's going to win, as they perfectly know it is not a matter of skill, but a matter of luck, only. They are selecting the lukiest, not the best.. But they don't care as any of the 8 in the game can win the world championship or the Olympic games, as they all are from "another league".
But WA needs to keep the image of a real sport competition were you can win by skill, not by luck. And in (real) sports, the World and Olympic champions are there to defend their titles, ever, as this is what media and spectators expect to happen. 
Problem is image, not content. 
(Ki Bo Bae has won the Gold in London shooting an 8 closer to the 9 than her oppnent's 8. Pure luck, not skill, in my opinion, but at least it was at the end of the game, not before the game was started).


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Would you tell the third ranked shooter, sorry, our nationally recognized shooter has to shoot, go sit? As a sportsman, I'd be outraged. To not field the best team based on merit is a slippery slope.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't see how shooting an arrow closer to the center is pure luck, although you can argue that the more times this is required, the less of a factor that luck plays in the outcome. 

Just as we archers recognize that ranking rounds test skill and matchplay tests nerves, there must be a balance. If all we have are ranking rounds, then it's pointless for many archers to even show up. However, if a less skilled archer has stronger nerves than a more skilled archer, they can still win the event. 

Ranking rounds are for archers. Matchplay is for spectators, it has been said. However, matchplay can also be for archers who need the opportunity they would never have in a 72 or 144-arrow ranking round.

John


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Would you tell the third ranked shooter, sorry, our nationally recognized shooter has to shoot, go sit? As a sportsman, I'd be outraged. To not field the best team based on merit is a slippery slope.


This is spot on.  

Of course, if the world champion was made to defend their title all the time it would get stale very quickly and stop the newer and better archers coming to fruition. 

Going back to the Korean team, I believe the selection is correct, OH and IM are shooting nowhere near as good as the top ranked archers, Kim woojin is on another planet at the moment and the boy wonder Lee woo seok has been phenomenal in training and the shoot offs. He's one that I think we should be watching closely this year.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Vittorio said:


> When the Koreans make the World Championship team by a single arrow Robin round, everyone should note that they don't care at all who's going to win, as they perfectly know it is not a matter of skill, but a matter of luck, only. They are selecting the lukiest, not the best.. But they don't care as any of the 8 in the game can win the world championship or the Olympic games, as they all are from "another league".
> But WA needs to keep the image of a real sport competition were you can win by skill, not by luck. And in (real) sports, the World and Olympic champions are there to defend their titles, ever, as this is what media and spectators expect to happen.
> Problem is image, not content.
> (Ki Bo Bae has won the Gold in London shooting an 8 closer to the 9 than her oppnent's 8. Pure luck, not skill, in my opinion, but at least it was at the end of the game, not before the game was started).


Vittorio, why do the Koreans structure their elimination shoot-offs that way? What's their reasoning?


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## AR1945 (Feb 5, 2015)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Would you tell the third ranked shooter, sorry, our nationally recognized shooter has to shoot, go sit? As a sportsman, I'd be outraged. To not field the best team based on merit is a slippery slope.


Sounds exactly like USA Archery's "Medal Contender Clause" for the upcoming Olympic Trials.

http://www.teamusa.org/~/media/USA_Archery/January 2015/2016 SOG ARY ATH.pdf


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Not quite. Medal contender must beat the 3rd ranked archer in the field of play. Not ideal, but at least not entitled.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Natalia Veleeva is another ex-pat, shooting for Italy (that's worked out well for Italy), and Sky Kim competes in Australia (the latter perhaps because he didn't make the Korean team - I'm not sure of my facts on this one).

I'd like to see tied sets broken by another set rather than one arrow (although that might exceed the TV time allotted), or, perhaps, if it is still tied, then a closest to center extra shot or closest to center on the extra 3-arrow set, if you're still in a rush.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Vittorio, why do the Koreans structure their elimination shoot-offs that way? What's their reasoning?


I think I have already commented that in my opinion they simply don't care who's going to win, knowing that in any case the winner will be OK for their team.
They have clearly already reached the final stage I was speculating for several years already to be coming, in the continuous search by WA for the faster competition with minimum number of arrows to increase the variabiliyty of the results: the single arrow match! 
When you can not decide who's the best archer by shooting the official target distance, and a relevant number of arrows, you have to go to shoot off or coin toss. This is already in the rules. So if you know that you have in any case 8 archers all at the same very top level, why to bother about using more than one arrow to decide the winner? This is the "fianl solution", bit also the end of our sport, in my opinion, as a coin toss wil do the job faster without even the need to move the archers to the same location. 
Make it simple: in 1000 single arrow shoot off, IM and OH may share victories probably 50/50. So what's the difference in using a coin to decide the winner among them, even without shooting a single arrow? If you realize this, all archery theories for mortals will vanish suddenly... 
P.S.
No one can select a full set of arrows good enough to be all hitting exactly the same spot at 70 mt when shot by fingers. This was very clear already when we had the 3 arrows shoot off, but now we only have one .. It simply means that the victory in a sigle arrow shoot off between two perfect archers shooting both perfectly in perfect ambient depends from the overall tolerance of that single arrow they are shooting in that specific moment. Let say that in reality at least 8 cm difference at 70 mt may come from the quality of the arrows, only, not from the skill of the archer. It's a game, just a game. Koreans know this, much better than others.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

archeryal said:


> I'd like to see tied sets broken by another set rather than one arrow (although that might exceed the TV time allotted), or, perhaps, if it is still tied, then a closest to center extra shot or closest to center on the extra 3-arrow set, if you're still in a rush.


Why not just save time and on the last end of a match, if both archers are still tied, the archer with the lowest cumulative distance to the center for all 3 arrows is the winner? Less exciting than the sudden death single arrow, but perhaps a better representation of skill without adding time.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

a number of people have asked me for a link to any footage of the Korean National team rounds for their world team. 

Here is a link to a news story video of it. 

http://news.kbs.co.kr/news/NewsView.do?SEARCH_NEWS_CODE=3050159


it does have footage of the single arrow heads up match play. 


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Vittorio said:


> I think I have already commented that in my opinion they simply don't care who's going to win, knowing that in any case the winner will be OK for their team.
> They have clearly already reached the final stage I was speculating for several years already to be coming, in the continuous search by WA for the faster competition with minimum number of arrows to increase the variabiliyty of the results: the single arrow match!
> When you can not decide who's the best archer by shooting the official target distance, and a relevant number of arrows, you have to go to shoot off or coin toss. This is already in the rules. So if you know that you have in any case 8 archers all at the same very top level, why to bother about using more than one arrow to decide the winner? This is the "fianl solution", bit also the end of our sport, in my opinion, as a coin toss wil do the job faster without even the need to move the archers to the same location.
> Make it simple: in 1000 single arrow shoot off, IM and OH may share victories probably 50/50. So what's the difference in using a coin to decide the winner among them, even without shooting a single arrow? If you realize this, all archery theories for mortals will vanish suddenly...
> ...


I see what you're saying. There is no distinguishable difference between their top handful of archers, and differences in the shoot off are more affected by luck of the draw on who pulls the better arrow out of their quiver.

I wish they'd go back to full FITA, but maybe tweak the target sizes to help differentiate the archers' skill on a particular afternoon - 122cm @ 90m; 80cm @ 70m; 60cm @ 50m; 40cm @ 30m.

Why not have two titles - the full FITA crown (the Archers Crown), and then the Single Elimination Bracket (the TV Crown)...


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

The Korean female archer who was deported after going to Tijuana was Kim Hyo-Jung. She was a former Korean Jr. Champ and National Team member. She got her US green card in 2001 and made her début at the 2002 Texas Shootout. I met her at the 2002 Gold Cup. She was super nice and it was nice to she another Korean archer in the US. She also set up a brand new W&W bow during the practice round and still won 1st place.

A few top US female archers (who no longer shoot) were worried about loosing their USAT spots tricked Hyo-Jung into going to Mexico during one of the competitions at Chula Vista OTC. I think it was the So-Cal Showdown. They told her there was a small competition in Tijuana the last night and told her she could win some big money. They drove her down there with all of her luggage and equipment and left her after they crossed the border.

Last I heard of her in Korea, she was selling archery equipment on eBay and coaching an elementary school team.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

x1440 said:


> The Korean female archer who was deported after going to Tijuana was Kim Hyo-Jung. She was a former Korean Jr. Champ and National Team member. She got her US green card in 2001 and made her début at the 2002 Texas Shootout. I met her at the 2002 Gold Cup. She was super nice and it was nice to she another Korean archer in the US. She also set up a brand new W&W bow during the practice round and still won 1st place.
> 
> A few top US female archers (who no longer shoot) were worried about loosing their USAT spots tricked Hyo-Jung into going to Mexico during one of the competitions at Chula Vista OTC. I think it was the So-Cal Showdown. They told her there was a small competition in Tijuana the last night and told her she could win some big money. They drove her down there with all of her luggage and equipment and left her after they crossed the border.
> 
> Last I heard of her in Korea, she was selling archery equipment on eBay and coaching an elementary school team.


If true, that's despicable behavior by the perps. If true, it makes me sick.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

x1440 said:


> A few top US female archers (who no longer shoot) were worried about loosing their USAT spots tricked Hyo-Jung into going to Mexico during one of the competitions at Chula Vista OTC. I think it was the So-Cal Showdown. They told her there was a small competition in Tijuana the last night and told her she could win some big money. They drove her down there with all of her luggage and equipment and left her after they crossed the border.


I can imagine anyone would do such a despicable thing. And to a fellow archer as well. What a piece of crap those female archers must have been. I personally am glad they no longer shoot. I would love to know who they are.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have an idea of who they might be, although I wouldn't give the ones I'm thinking of credit for being that smart. 

Women in the U.S. can be their own worst enemies sometimes. It's hard to accept, but it's the truth.

This is one reason the women's excellence program was put in place. To encourage our ladies to support one another unconditionally. It's something that needs to happen if we are to see are women once again become world class archers.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

here is the 2002 USAT female recurve members, any guesses who did that? Did the NAA do anything to discipline the ones who did that? 

Kathie Loesch, 
Janet Dykman, 
Karen Scavotto, 
Jessica Carleton, 
Jessica Peterson, 
Ruth Rowe,
Dawn Chudy 


I think Janet Dykman is an archery coach in California. 

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I cant believe this is such a non story. 

Those archers cost that Korean lady a life in the USA, a chance at citizenship, opportunity for jobs etc. All because they didnt want to lose a USAT spot. 

What an injustice. How is it this was not news then? and still isnt news now? 

What if that had happened to Katuna Lorig when she came here from Georgia? Honestly this is the worst thing i have ever heard that was archery related. Katuna for sure took a USAT spot. But she earned it and still earns it. Kim Hyojung could have earned one too. 

What those USAT females did was criminal. 

Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Vittorio said:


> I think I have already commented that in my opinion they simply don't care who's going to win, knowing that in any case the winner will be OK for their team.
> They have clearly already reached the final stage I was speculating for several years already to be coming, in the continuous search by WA for the faster competition with minimum number of arrows to increase the variabiliyty of the results: the single arrow match!
> When you can not decide who's the best archer by shooting the official target distance, and a relevant number of arrows, you have to go to shoot off or coin toss. This is already in the rules. So if you know that you have in any case 8 archers all at the same very top level, why to bother about using more than one arrow to decide the winner? This is the "fianl solution", bit also the end of our sport, in my opinion, as a coin toss wil do the job faster without even the need to move the archers to the same location.
> Make it simple: in 1000 single arrow shoot off, IM and OH may share victories probably 50/50. So what's the difference in using a coin to decide the winner among them, even without shooting a single arrow? If you realize this, all archery theories for mortals will vanish suddenly...
> ...


Yeah, I was going to say that the fewer arrows involved the more randomness would result. Standard meritocracy you shoot either 72 or 144 where bad arrows or even ends wash out over time; or at least normal sets where you can come back easier. But this way you could have slightly better archer hit 9, weaker guy 10, hold serve a few ends on equal terms, win. The weaker guy over 72 might hit a percentage less 10s but all he has to do to win is pull more 10s out of the hat one at a time. You can say the best should still win but by math combinations there should be some chance the weaker one gets more 10s and the better more 9s on a run. They can say it's preparing for heat of competition but how often do they do need to do SOs? They're likely close to head of any qualifying field, and one assumes strong in knockouts as well. So they either want fresh blood regularly or they just believe in the system so much they value it above individuals emerging from it at any time. Because if it reshuffles this often they must know what the process does.

People were mentioning the Garrett score. But if we just sent the best 4 on the USAT score matrix he'd be #7 from last year. And anyone you rested to send him would have their own talent, stats, fans, and pro-arguments. So it's complicated.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I cant believe this is such a non story.
> 
> Those archers cost that Korean lady a life in the USA, a chance at citizenship, opportunity for jobs etc. All because they didnt want to lose a USAT spot.


That's the story. We don't know what actually happened and frankly, she should have known her status and that it wasn't a good idea to go to Mexico. Personal accountability and all that stuff. Blah, blah.



> Did the NAA do anything to discipline the ones who did that?


Even if it did happen that way, how would it fall under the purview of the NAA? They were on their personal time, I would assume, not in competiton. If all NAA/USArchery athletes had to account for their behavior off the field all the time, there would be a LOT more stories than this one to tell.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

The whole Korean thing is just a difference of eastern and western cultures. They value system over individuals, considering that it's a government funded thing (even though a lot of funding comes from state-owned or state-influenced businesses) I'm not sure they are worried at all. Archery is after all their national sport, so they are ensuring that they are always on top.

And it might be just that someone else has come through who is simply better. There were a lot of superb archers in the past who didn't make the cut and started dropping from the top branch, like Jang Yong-Ho, Oh Kyo-Moon etc. who were world record holders at the time.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

lksseven said:


> If true, that's despicable behavior by the perps. If true, it makes me sick.


Women can be major B's when there's competition. And that's not just in archery. (As if y'all don't know). 

I just learned about the behavior of some other "pro" female archers that was completely unprofessional toward other archers. The sad part is that it was all witnessed by a newbie. 

When I first started out in archery, I had a female pro staff shooter sabotage my bow at a 3D shoot. 

Anyway, I'm wondering off topic, but yes... there should be consequences.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Women are vicious when it comes to competition. I can't even repeat some things I heard several GRANDMOTHERS say at local volleyball games this past year. I was speechless.

Lynda, it surprises me not a bit that you had that unfortunate experience. I don't know why, but it seems women have a harder time competing fairly and accepting losses than men. 

I was working with the women's teams in Turkey in 2007, and some of the things I saw and heard that week shocked me. Things I had never heard or seen on the men's side.

I can never remember hearing of an incident of bow tampering on the men's side. Ever. But I can think of several on the women's side. I have one female student that takes deliberate measures to prevent her bow being tampered with - for good reason. It's very sad she has to do this, but she's smart to do it.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I can never remember hearing of an incident of bow tampering on the men's side. Ever. But I can think of several on the women's side. I have one female student that takes deliberate measures to prevent her bow being tampered with - for good reason. It's very sad she has to do this, but she's smart to do it.


one of my JOAD kids, had her bow sabotaged while shooting in the Philippines. She now protects her bow. 

Tampering so someone loses a tournament is one thing. Helping someone be deported is i think quite another. Losing a tournament is not life changing, on any level. It sucks for sure that people would stoop so low. But driving someone to Tijuana with all their things knowing you are going to abandon them there with no recourse to come back to the states while lying to them about a big money tournament is a completely different ballpark. Those ladies who did that if that is the case are a vile piece of humanity, and archery does not ever need them in it. 

sorry that story steams me so. 

Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I guess the troops have tired of relentlessly attacking NTS, K.Lee, USAA, USAT...and have now moved on to attacking women who apparently can't compete fairly nor handle losses with as much dignity... as men do? 

It's official. Archery Talk has hit an all-time low.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Seattlepop said:


> I guess the troops have tired of relentlessly attacking NTS, K.Lee, USAA, USAT...and have now moved on to attacking women who apparently can't compete fairly nor handle losses with as much dignity... as men do?
> 
> It's official. Archery Talk has hit an all-time low.


You can summon no outrage for a truly craven act against that female Korean archer, but are quick to feign offense at a straw man indictment that you just invented?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a stronger supporter for our female archers over the past 10 years than I. But facts are facts and I think Lynda has a better perspective on this than any of us men do. As a coach of several very competitive young ladies, I've unfortunately witnessed the tears and frustration first hand. Again, never on the men's side either as a competitor or a coach. Not sure why that is, but it's a sad thing for sure.

Larry, I'm not sure the seattle sockpuppet is worth your time.

I have always found it amusing when folks with blank profiles constantly deride this forum. I wonder, what kind of person logs in and reads traffic on a forum they have such a low opinion of? Can they not find any better use of their own time?


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

While this thread did go way OT, I think there is a huge benefit to having this subject brought up. 

Tangible - not just perceived - injustice is something that should not be tolerated, and we, as coaches, have a responsibility to help mould our archers (and kids, and adults...) into more responsible citizens. 

I will be citing this story with my students when team playing and etiquette discussions are on the table. 

Chances are, some of those USAT women have had their conscience pricked on several occasions since the incident, for a selfish act that they cannot undo. And now we know who they were, and that will forever be archived in Google for their children to someday stumble upon. 

I have always taught, no matter what you say or do, always think of the consequences. Love conquers all.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> And now we know who they were,


No, we don't. Not yet.....


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> I guess the troops have tired of relentlessly attacking NTS, K.Lee, USAA, USAT...and have now moved on to attacking women who apparently can't compete fairly nor handle losses with as much dignity... as men do?
> 
> It's official. Archery Talk has hit an all-time low.


I happen to promote womens recurve more than any other discipline, even my own. My facebook is full of the top women recurve archers ( mostly Korean, but some USA and China etc). But aside from that.....

i would love for any from that team to come here and give us the accurate story with names. PLEASE....


Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

The story of the Korean women is indeed tragic. However, that discussion rapidly degenerated into pejorative comments about women in general, the most egregious of which was yours limbwalker: “I don't know why, but it seems women have a harder time competing fairly and accepting losses than men.” Seriously? Your lack of empathy and insensitivity preclude you from understanding that you just said women are cheaters and are poorer losers than men. I find it hard to believe that even you would go that far, but there it is. If I'm wrong, I apologize. You frequently remind us you are an Olympian and a coach as justification to speak with authority. In my opinion that makes your comment all the more irresponsible. You can call me names all day but you would still owe women an apology. 

And please...with the profile nonsense...You and I have PMd so you know who I am. Suggesting otherwise is dishonest. The beauty of the internet is that you are judged by your comments and opinions. Superiority complexes are entertaining. 

To the others, I do not doubt whatsoever that you have run into the isolated problems you discussed. It is unfortunate that you were caught up in the more generalized comments that I find so objectionable. To you my sincerest apologies. 

AT has a long history of building a culture of contempt directed at NTS and USAA and just about everything in between at one time or another. There has rarely, if ever, been balanced treatment by the leadership on this board. This is well known and has driven valuable contributors away. I have been an outspoken critic of the unbalanced treatment given our National Archery Association and its programs. Dare to stand up in support of USAA and you are called names and bullied. Just ask me.


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## Varza (Sep 11, 2014)

x1440 said:


> The Korean female archer who was deported after going to Tijuana was Kim Hyo-Jung. She was a former Korean Jr. Champ and National Team member. She got her US green card in 2001 and made her début at the 2002 Texas Shootout. I met her at the 2002 Gold Cup. She was super nice and it was nice to she another Korean archer in the US. She also set up a brand new W&W bow during the practice round and still won 1st place.
> 
> A few top US female archers (who no longer shoot) were worried about loosing their USAT spots tricked Hyo-Jung into going to Mexico during one of the competitions at Chula Vista OTC. I think it was the So-Cal Showdown.  They told her there was a small competition in Tijuana the last night and told her she could win some big money. They drove her down there with all of her luggage and equipment and left her after they crossed the border.
> 
> Last I heard of her in Korea, she was selling archery equipment on eBay and coaching an elementary school team.


This confuses me. You say she got her US green card in 2001, and in 2002 (I assume, and so do others), some USAT female archers drove her to Mexico and... had her deported? How can this be? A green card means you are a lawful permanent resident, and you can (theoretically) come and go as you please. Was she deported... from the US for traveling to Mexico - or from Mexico into the US, which would have taken hours/days of procedures and thus she would have missed the tournament?? But the second scenario would not have "ruined her life", she could still have come back and lived in the US, as that is what a green card is for.

So many questions... I really am curious how this went down, and have been unable to find any news articles on it. If she had a green card in 2001, she could not POSSIBLY have gotten deported from the US for going to Mexico. Stranded, sure. Kicked out FROM MEXICO, possibly (don't know the rules on LPRs traveling there). But kicked out of the US? Not allowed to return? NO. So I am sincerely doubtful of this story.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Varza said:


> This confuses me. You say she got her US green card in 2001, and in 2002 (I assume, and so do others), some USAT female archers drove her to Mexico and... had her deported? How can this be? A green card means you are a lawful permanent resident, and you can (theoretically) come and go as you please. Was she deported... from the US for traveling to Mexico - or from Mexico into the US, which would have taken hours/days of procedures and thus she would have missed the tournament?? But the second scenario would not have "ruined her life", she could still have come back and lived in the US, as that is what a green card is for.
> 
> So many questions... I really am curious how this went down, and have been unable to find any news articles on it. If she had a green card in 2001, she could not POSSIBLY have gotten deported from the US for going to Mexico. Stranded, sure. Kicked out FROM MEXICO, possibly (don't know the rules on LPRs traveling there). But kicked out of the US? Not allowed to return? NO. So I am sincerely doubtful of this story.


*this confuses you because you have no real first hand experience with immigration*. The story is quite true, and she was deported because her visa had expired which allowed her to come to the USA, and her green card was pending. And she went out of the USA and then tried to come back in. That would invalidate her green card processing. You dont know how immigration works for a green card. 

When a person comes to the US, the paperwork is filed for the green card. They are given a provisional temporary Visa to stay in the country while the green card processes.The initial visa is only good for 6 months ( its stamped in their passport). The green card processing and interviews and such can take a year or longer. You are told you can not leave the USA for any reason. IF you do, it invalidates the visa, green card processing and you are deported. You can only travel outside the USA if you apply for AP ( Advanced parole). This is usually for an extreme emergency such as a death in the family in your original country. The AP takes weeks to process itself. After 8-12 months, the person immigrating gets a 2 year green card. This green card must be renewed 6 months before expiring. Then the person gets a 10 year green card. Once you have a green card, you can do some limited travel outside of the USA. Immigration doesnt care if your passport visa expires as long as you stay inside the USA, while your green card app is processing. It only matters if you leave. 

Even then your 10 year green card or 2 year green card can be revoked. 

The whole purpose of the green card is you are telling the USA you want to stay in the USA. 

I have first hand knowledge of the entire immigration process as my wife is Filipino, immigrated to the USA in 2007 and got her US citizenship last year. It took 6 years total. When we first applied for her Visa, that took a year, then it was a year for the green card processing. 

her initial visa lasted 6 months. It took almost a year to get her work authorization, and her 2 year green card. Then after that 2 years, she got her 10 year green card. That took about 6 months of processing. We had about 5 interviews, 3 medicals, 3 fingerprinting and background checks to make sure she was a model green card holder. Then after 5 years holding a 10 year green card, she was eligible to apply for citizenship. 

This is another reason why i am so steamed. I know how hard it is to immigrate someone from Asia. 

Those girls lied to her about a tournament there, she probably believed them as they were a group saying the same thing, and they took her and dumped her outside the country. Back then, you werent checked leaving the USA, only on reentry. Probably people told her NOT to go. But the big money was enticing as you cant work until you get work authorization when immigrating, and she probably didnt have much money. Those girls played on what she needed. They took her there specifically to ruin her chance of staying in the USA and robbing one of them of a USAT spot. 


She was deported by the USA, because she tried to enter the USA on the expired visa, and because she left, she had effectively abandoned her green card application. They held her i am sure while doing the paperwork to send her back to Korea. The original country for her visa. Once you are in violation and deported, you get a 10 year ban. after the 10 years, you can apply for another visa. However, you are not likely to ever get it, because you were banned and deported previously. Thus, she and they effectively ruined her chance at living in the USA. There are too many people wanting a visa to come here with a spotless background. They will deny just about any that were previously deported for a violation. 

Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Seattlepop said:


> The story of the Korean women is indeed tragic. However, that discussion rapidly degenerated into pejorative comments about women in general, the most egregious of which was yours limbwalker: “I don't know why, but it seems women have a harder time competing fairly and accepting losses than men.” Seriously? Your lack of empathy and insensitivity preclude you from understanding that you just said women are cheaters and are poorer losers than men. I find it hard to believe that even you would go that far, but there it is. If I'm wrong, I apologize. You frequently remind us you are an Olympian and a coach as justification to speak with authority. In my opinion that makes your comment all the more irresponsible. You can call me names all day but you would still owe women an apology.
> 
> And please...with the profile nonsense...You and I have PMd so you know who I am. Suggesting otherwise is dishonest. The beauty of the internet is that you are judged by your comments and opinions. Superiority complexes are entertaining.
> 
> ...


I must say, I agree.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

Seattlepop said:


> The story of the Korean women is indeed tragic. However, that discussion rapidly degenerated into pejorative comments about women in general, the most egregious of which was yours limbwalker: “I don't know why, but it seems women have a harder time competing fairly and accepting losses than men.” Seriously? Your lack of empathy and insensitivity preclude you from understanding that you just said women are cheaters and are poorer losers than men. I find it hard to believe that even you would go that far, but there it is. If I'm wrong, I apologize. You frequently remind us you are an Olympian and a coach as justification to speak with authority. In my opinion that makes your comment all the more irresponsible. You can call me names all day but you would still owe women an apology.
> 
> And please...with the profile nonsense...You and I have PMd so you know who I am. Suggesting otherwise is dishonest. The beauty of the internet is that you are judged by your comments and opinions. Superiority complexes are entertaining.
> 
> ...


cant say you are wrong, probably why quite a few just sit back and take the bits of good info and stay clear. challenge some people words and well.....you know.

wayne


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

She was not deported from the US or Mexico. Her Visa papers did not allowed to re-enter the US. She tried to find different legal ways to re-enter the US but unfortunately had to return to Korea. US Visas are pretty complex. My uncle recently immigrated to the US on an E2 Visa and he was also being sponsored by my mom for Citizenship. However his Visa prevented him from leaving the US for a set number of years while is application was being processed, even to attend his Father's funeral. 

Anyway, for those of you who think this seems unreal and can't imagine a few US women archers plotting this scheme, here is some info on the story:

http://www.texasarchery.org/eletters/20020530.htm

http://sagittarius.student.utwente.nl/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=744

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=136623&p=1086970#post1086970


There was no big news or disciplining of the archers because what they did was not illegal, however it was immoral and unsportsman of them. Hyo-Jung is also responsible for her actions because she knew she was not allowed to leave the US unless she was not made aware she was leaving the US and had no knowledge Tijuana was in Mexico. I do not have first hand information. I just heard rumors about who the people were while I was at competitions. I do not want to name any names because I'm not sure if they in fact are the responsible parties. I also remember a couple people discussing the scheme as a joke at the 2003 AZ Cup because Hyo-Jung was in 1st place...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

x1440 said:


> She was not deported from the US or Mexico. Her Visa papers did not allowed to re-enter the US. She tried to find different legal ways to re-enter the US but unfortunately had to return to Korea. US Visas are pretty complex. My uncle recently immigrated to the US on an E2 Visa and he was also being sponsored by my mom for Citizenship. However his Visa prevented him from leaving the US for a set number of years while is application was being processed, even to attend his Father's funeral.
> 
> Anyway, for those of you who think this seems unreal and can't imagine a few US women archers plotting this scheme, here is some info on the story:
> 
> ...


Then at least she has a chance to come back to the USA. Being denied reentry and abandoning her green gard application and not detrimental to her chances again to come. Being deported is.


Chris


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## Varza (Sep 11, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> *this confuses you because you have no real first hand experience with immigration*. The story is quite true, and she was deported because her visa had expired which allowed her to come to the USA, and her green card was pending. And she went out of the USA and then tried to come back in. That would invalidate her green card processing. You dont know how immigration works for a green card.
> 
> When a person comes to the US, the paperwork is filed for the green card. They are given a provisional temporary Visa to stay in the country while the green card processes.The initial visa is only good for 6 months ( its stamped in their passport). The green card processing and interviews and such can take a year or longer. You are told you can not leave the USA for any reason. IF you do, it invalidates the visa, green card processing and you are deported. You can only travel outside the USA if you apply for AP ( Advanced parole). This is usually for an extreme emergency such as a death in the family in your original country. The AP takes weeks to process itself. After 8-12 months, the person immigrating gets a 2 year green card. This green card must be renewed 6 months before expiring. Then the person gets a 10 year green card. Once you have a green card, you can do some limited travel outside of the USA. Immigration doesnt care if your passport visa expires as long as you stay inside the USA, while your green card app is processing. It only matters if you leave.
> 
> ...


Wow, so quick to jump to conclusions, I am amused!

*I have first hand experience with immigration. I am an immigrant myself.* What was said was "she got her green card in 2001", not "she applied for her green card in 2001 and it was being processed". 

Lots of people apply for an AP and EAD combo as part of their AOS process and get it without an issue. 2-year green cards are for people who have been married for less than 2 years. You then apply to remove conditions and get a 10-year one. Eligible to apply for citizenship after 3 year as an LPR, if still married. Of course, since we are now 7 (and 13) years later, the rules are probably slightly different.

So, now I can see how she would have been unable to re-enter the US. However, being turned away at the border and forced to go back to your home country is not the same as being deported. Deportation happens if you are within the US, found to be in violation, and come to the attention of the ICE, usually for having committed a crime. 

And you only get a 10-year ban if you overstay your I-94 for over a year. Most likely, it would be difficult for her to get another non-immigrant visa because she had demonstrated immigrant intent. Um, also, what made her eligible for a green card in the first place??

Thanks for explaining, Chris.


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## mahgnillig (Aug 3, 2014)

Wow, this story is pretty low. Like Chris and Varza, I know from first hand experience how many hoops INS makes you jump through in order to become a naturalised US citizen (I am originally from the UK). It took 5 years for me to gain US citizenship, and you have to obey all of their rules to the letter, even if they are the ones that made a mistake! I really feel bad for Ms. Kim... this certainly changed the direction of her whole life 

Hearing tales such as this actually make me somewhat concerned about competing (if I ever get that good). This kind of sabotage is not unheard of in other sports either... everyone remember Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding? Yikes! I would hazard a guess that it's not that women are more disposed to unsportsmanlike behaviour, but they just go about it differently than men.

- Jen.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

wanemann said:


> cant say you are wrong, probably why quite a few just sit back and take the bits of good info and stay clear. challenge some people words and well.....you know.
> 
> wayne


No kidding! I readily admit that I reacted harshly. However, the derogatory stereotyping of women can’t be dismissed. People don’t always recognize sexism when they see it and are usually shocked if accused, and yet there it is. It is often just a matter of awareness.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have SP on my ignore list, but I can just imagine what 1st-hand experience they are conveying for the betterment of AT at the moment. LOL!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> I can imagine anyone would do such a despicable thing. And to a fellow archer as well. What a piece of crap those female archers must have been. I personally am glad they no longer shoot. I would love to know who they are.
> 
> 
> Chris


this was big news back then. The woman in question had made either the world team or the pan am team (IIRC the eligibility requirements for immigrants were different hence she could be on one team and not the other). the little visa issue cost her membership on the team. She also had some rather cut throat behavior directed at her at a couple or one tournaments. IN one case, she asked if there was a warm up end between distances as was a custom apparently where she shot. a competitor said yes knowing it was no. she missed a 3 arrow end due to being in the toilet-she apparently told a target-mate where she was an no on told the judge. I believe she still placed anyway. Someone noted on the old Sagittarius Board that if it had been Butch (who was trading titles back and forth with Vic in those days) Vic would have stopped the line until Butch was not shooting. As I recall the treatment of this woman was about as heated a topic as the case of a former NAA president's daughter whose coach told her not to shoot the first day of JOAD Nationals -Cincinnati and then she took second in the OR (which was the ONLY thing that counted due to a rule change) as the last seed after we-the tournament committee, were told that cutting to 16 (which would have prevented this gamesmanship) was going to be changed. Two girls who were victimized by this "strategy" and knocked off USAT as a result never shot again from what I recall.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Jim C said:


> this was big news back then. The woman in question had made either the world team or the pan am team (IIRC the eligibility requirements for immigrants were different hence she could be on one team and not the other). the little visa issue cost her membership on the team. She also had some rather cut throat behavior directed at her at a couple or one tournaments. IN one case, she asked if there was a warm up end between distances as was a custom apparently where she shot. a competitor said yes knowing it was no. she missed a 3 arrow end due to being in the toilet-she apparently told a target-mate where she was an no on told the judge. I believe she still placed anyway. Someone noted on the old Sagittarius Board that if it had been Butch (who was trading titles back and forth with Vic in those days) Vic would have stopped the line until Butch was not shooting. As I recall the treatment of this woman was about as heated a topic as the case of a former NAA president's daughter whose coach told her not to shoot the first day of JOAD Nationals -Cincinnati and then she took second in the OR (which was the ONLY thing that counted due to a rule change) as the last seed after we-the tournament committee, were told that cutting to 16 (which would have prevented this gamesmanship) was going to be changed. Two girls who were victimized by this "strategy" and knocked off USAT as a result never shot again from what I recall.


all of this is just appalling. 


Chris


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

World Back To normal 

KI-Bo-Bae-set-to-rejoin-Korean-team


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Joe T said:


> World Back To normal
> 
> KI-Bo-Bae-set-to-rejoin-Korean-team


... giving a special "10 points" bonus to OH to get him back to the team ... :wink:


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Vittorio said:


> ... giving a special "10 points" bonus to OH to get him back to the team ... :wink:


Hmmm ... It would seem that the Koreans are as susceptible to 'massaging criteria to get the result they want' as most of the rest of the world ... :confused2:


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

WA has published today the new update World Ranking list and there are several surprises in it, despite the fact that most of the top in the list did not show up outdoor yet. 
Having a deep look to it, I have found that suddenly points have been added to the top 4 World Cup finallists in Lausanne last year (90/73.4/63/54), so changing the rankings among the top 10 from previous list. This change is NOT in the rules (yet) and is clearly done to give more value to the world cup final. So we have now Rick Van Der Ven as Nbr 1 RM in the world ....


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> WA has published today the new update World Ranking list and there are several surprises in it, despite the fact that most of the top in the list did not show up outdoor yet.
> Having a deep look to it, I have found that suddenly points have been added to the top 4 World Cup finallists in Lausanne last year (90/73.4/63/54), so changing the rankings among the top 10 from previous list. This change is NOT in the rules (yet) and is clearly done to give more value to the world cup final. So we have now Rick Van Der Ven as Nbr 1 RM in the world ....


And today the WA World Ranking list has been re-set to 2014, Nov. 27 edition, without World cup finals points. 
I think they realized that they can change the rules to include the next World cup final, but not the previous one ...


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

TER said:


> Oh would end up like that Korean female archer who tried to immigrate to the USA a little over 10 years ago. Deceived and abandoned in Mexico with a freshly voided Green Card application.


I was on that trip to Mexico. It was a group of a dozen or so archers who wanted to have some fun after world team trials. This was when you could just cross the border into Mexico without any documentation. Needless to say the trip back wasn't so much fun. She was not abandoned and a lot of hard work was put into getting her back in the states.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

x1440 said:


> The Korean female archer who was deported after going to Tijuana was Kim Hyo-Jung. She was a former Korean Jr. Champ and National Team member. She got her US green card in 2001 and made her début at the 2002 Texas Shootout. I met her at the 2002 Gold Cup. She was super nice and it was nice to she another Korean archer in the US. She also set up a brand new W&W bow during the practice round and still won 1st place.
> 
> A few top US female archers (who no longer shoot) were worried about loosing their USAT spots tricked Hyo-Jung into going to Mexico during one of the competitions at Chula Vista OTC. I think it was the So-Cal Showdown. They told her there was a small competition in Tijuana the last night and told her she could win some big money. They drove her down there with all of her luggage and equipment and left her after they crossed the border.
> 
> Last I heard of her in Korea, she was selling archery equipment on eBay and coaching an elementary school team.


This is not what happened at all. I was there detained at the border with her. I'm pretty sure there weren't any female usat members that went. It was half resident athletes. This was nothing more than a night on the town after 2003 world trials. No luggage was brought. Don't know where these horrible stories come from. Did anyone know what would happen? It's possible but I highly doubt it. She was well liked and her inclusion in social activities off the field show that.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I don't see how shooting an arrow closer to the center is pure luck, although you can argue that the more times this is required, the less of a factor that luck plays in the outcome.
> 
> Just as we archers recognize that ranking rounds test skill and matchplay tests nerves, there must be a balance. If all we have are ranking rounds, then it's pointless for many archers to even show up. However, if a less skilled archer has stronger nerves than a more skilled archer, they can still win the event.
> 
> ...


 I agree. Closest to center is luck. Even the most perfect shot won't hit dead center. Especially with wind.


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Hmmm ... It would seem that the Koreans are as susceptible to 'massaging criteria to get the result they want' as most of the rest of the world ... :confused2:


Hmm, I was wondering about that too. Who was the archer who got "bumped" to 4th? If it is Lee seung-yun then he must be especially narked because it means he can't defend his world title.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Brad Rega said:


> This is not what happened at all. I was there detained at the border with her. I'm pretty sure there weren't any female usat members that went. It was half resident athletes. This was nothing more than a night on the town after 2003 world trials. No luggage was brought. Don't know where these horrible stories come from. Did anyone know what would happen? It's possible but I highly doubt it. She was well liked and her inclusion in social activities off the field show that.


Glad you could shed some light on it Brad.



> Closest to center is luck.


If that were the case, we woulding be using targets with concentric circles.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Nm.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Brad Rega said:


> I was on that trip to Mexico. It was a group of a dozen or so archers who wanted to have some fun after world team trials. This was when you could just cross the border into Mexico without any documentation. Needless to say the trip back wasn't so much fun. She was not abandoned and a lot of hard work was put into getting her back in the states.


That's good to know. I wonder how the other story came about though. 
/shrugs


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> That's good to know. I wonder how the other story came about though.
> /shrugs


Who knows. Though at the time things were spread by word of mouth and when people dream up things, stories change. Some people also just like drama and make things up.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Back to World Ranking list, it has changed again today to the edition with the points added for the Lausanne world cup final:

http://www.worldarchery.org/RESULTS/World-Ranking/Outdoor

Calculation system on is still excluding this, anyhow... 

Clearly WA needs to be sure to have on top those in the finals of the previous Wolrd Cup to avoid "problems" for the sudden disappearance from international circuit of many Koreans that sometime are evn forbidden to participate to the WC final ...


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