# Nock Travel



## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I wanted to share some information that some people may or may not be aware of. Nock travel can be measured in 3 ways, drawing the bow back, letting the bow down, and the actual dynamic shot. When the nock travel is compared in these three different formats not one draw pattern matched another. So if drawing it back shows a different nock travel than letting down shows, which is different than the dynamic shot, which one is right? It's easy to say that a bow has straight nock travel when there is no standard by which straight nock travel is governed. So basically anyone can say/advertise that there bow has straight nock travel. 

I am thoroughly convinced that dynamic shot is the one that matters, If the draw cycle is different than the let down cycle which is different than the actual shot then it seems that you want it to be straightest in the dynamic shot, where it matters. 

Most people don't have access to equipment that would allow them to measure the nock travel in the dynamic shot. Matter fact I think some company's are banking on the fact that the customer will never have access to the equipment needed to measure such things.

I have seen dynamic nock travel on high speed camera in the shooters hand v.s. the Hooter Shooters Grip With massive heel, and in the Hooter Shooters Grip with no heel. This test was done with bowtechs, hoyts, mathews, CSS, and few other choice brands. All the bows when shot in the three different formats, actual shooter, H.S. w/heel, H.S. w/out heel all had identical nock travel. So in turn this would imply that if the Hooter Shooter shows straight nock travel in dynamic shot, then it will have straight nock travel in the shooters hand. My point is that the Hooter Shooter has proven to be an accurate way of measuring nock travel. 

Does straight nock travel even matter? Yes 
Can you measure the effects in accuracy? Yes 

I just wanted to share some info, i'm sure some may attempt to discredit the info I'm sharing. But let me assure you not only is the test done in a unbiased manner but I got footage that backs up the claims, everthing including the good the bad & the ugly. 

Hoggler


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## andy_smaga (Sep 27, 2003)

I fully understand your post, but for a person not having acces to a high speed camera, what is the static method that will give the closest result compared to a dynamic shot. (I have access to a Hooter Shooter) Can you describe the tools and method you would recomend.
Regards


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

Because every bow model, and brand has differences. It would be hard to tell you what pattern to watch for. On top of that my tests on the Hooter Shooter are all the high speed test. Any draw cycle tests done were done with make shift equipment (2x4's with draw posts, very custom deal like you might see in mathews solo cam v.s. cam 1/2 video).

It would be easier to disclose some dead give aways to watch for, when you've got bad nock travel.

1. Can't get a paper tear
2. The bow is very arrow sensitive, example ("If i don't use this spined arrow (which is usually not what the easton chart says you should use) with this weight of points at exactly 28" long, I can't get good arrow flight.")
3. Excessive wear on one of your prongs
4. When using a Hooter Shooter to tune all of your arrows to use the same hole at 20 yards. A good nock travel bow will all use the same shaft size hole. A bad nock travel bow will use the same hole but it will be wallowed 1/2 shaft or more depending on how bad your nock travel is.
5. Your center shot isn't where the factory specs recommend.
6. Your bow can't shoot a bare shaft straight, the arrow lands sideways on the target. 
7. When checking your wheel lean with a laser alignment tool from static to full draw the laser moves more than a 1/2". This can sometimes be limb slop causing the excessive movement and be fixed, but the cause and effect still means until fixed the bow will show bad nock travel (more in a side to side than up and down).
8. Problems with getting broadheads to group past 40 yards (pie plate accuracy)
9. Spray some foot powder on the arrow, and shoot it into a hard target so it doesn't sink in more than 6". Look at your scrape marks if your fletches are all scraped up you are bashing into your arrow rest.

Ways of fixing these problems
1. Make sure your limb pockets aren't sloppy, if they are shim them up to a press fit.
2. Don't have a free floating split yoke, If you serve a 2" stretch from where the split yoke naturally comes together down, you can individually adjust the lean to be as centered as possible, in turn reducing your string oscellation.
3. If you can't get rid of a up and down paper tear. Set up your arrowrest with a lizard tonge/shim arrowrest that is locked up, so the harder the arrow pushes down the harder the shim stock will push back. This will tend to counteract the downwards nock travel better than a spring tension launcher will. Same for side to side nock travel if your paper tear problem is a side to side tear than a shim stock support from the side such as a GFK super star type of set-up will help counter act the string side to side action being caused by the string ocselation.
4. My least favored trick, (because i'm not much of a fan of a calipher release, they tend to be not as consistent as a trigger release) for fixing the up and down nock travel is use a calipher release. A calipher release shot off the string underneath the nock will cause a rise in nock travel for the first 2" inches of the shot. So in turn if you have a nock travel dumping low, you can counter act the action by using a calipher release. Note that this effect only happens when shot underneath the nock if the calipher is shot off of a d-loop it will give the same results as any other release used with a d-loop.

In most cases the side to side nock travel or string oscelation is fixable. But 90% of the time if you have up and down nock travel that is tied to the design of the cam, is not fixable. All you can do at that point is use equipment that works well with that system.

In theory if you had absolutely straight nock travel up & down and Side to side. You could shoot a drinking straw, given a drinking straw couldn't handle the weight being forced on it but you get my point. The easton spine chart would go out the window, there would be a pardign shift in the laws of arrow selection. 

Hope this stuff helps

Hoggler


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## andy_smaga (Sep 27, 2003)

Hoggler,
I thank you very much for the valuable information and for the time spent to make it so clear.
Warm regards


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

Hoggler, very interesting! Can you post the brands that you tested with their results?

It would be interesting!

By the way, what is a free floating split yoke?


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I've tested AR, Mathews, PSE, Bowtech, Hoyt, Pearson, CSS, Martin, Clear Water, Genesis, and a few others.

I would rather not disclose how they compared to each other, in the end someone will get mad at me if I do.

What is Free Floating Yoke? 
Any system that is not served for the 2" down from where the cables naturally come together. Which will make controling your wheel lean virtually impossible. Even if your bow is capable of shooting straight nock travel, if your wheel lean is not correct it won't show straight nock travel. 

With hoyts system, even if you did serve that part it would make no difference cause they have a seperate string running through the cable. In this case you would have to get new cables to get control back over your wheel lean. 

Hoggler


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## huntmup (Mar 24, 2003)

*Results...*

I too am interested in your results...

I've switched makes this year specifically because I believe my *old* bow didn't have the straightest nock travel & it was affecting my accuracy negatively.

I say this because of wear marks & the super slow speed camera that I paid $30 to use at Nationals in KC this year. 

Time will tell if the *new* bow appears to be flatter but - hey - I didn't want to participate in this recession anyway!

Thanks for the info - will it be in the newsletter??

Get Greedy!!!


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

> Any system that is not served for the 2" down from where the cables naturally come together. Which will make controling your wheel lean virtually impossible. Even if your bow is capable of shooting straight nock travel, if your wheel lean is not correct it won't show straight nock travel.


 I concur.


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## Twang! (Apr 20, 2002)

> Nock travel can be measured in 3 ways, drawing the bow back, letting the bow down, and the actual dynamic shot. When the nock travel is compared in these three different formats not one draw pattern matched another. So if drawing it back shows a different nock travel than letting down shows, which is different than the dynamic shot, which one is right?


That is total crap. The nock travel is controlled by the cam shape, so unless the cam shape changes at full draw they all will be the same. Or your nock travel jig is a piece of crap and it is giving you bad results. 

Thanks for the info though. I think you better study that a little more.


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## PUG (Nov 3, 2002)

*Hey Now.....*

Hey Truth....Easy now....there ar better ways to argue your point then calling theirs crap.........................PUG


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Hey truth,
It is obvious that you are lacking an adequate understanding about the subject being discussed. That being the case, maybe you should try to learn something instead of trying so hard to resemble an uneducated moron.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Hoggler said:


> *Any system that is not served for the 2" down from where the cables naturally come together. Which will make controling your wheel lean virtually impossible. Even if your bow is capable of shooting straight nock travel, if your wheel lean is not correct it won't show straight nock travel.
> 
> With hoyts system, even if you did serve that part it would make no difference cause they have a seperate string running through the cable. In this case you would have to get new cables to get control back over your wheel lean.
> 
> Hoggler *


 I keep telling everyone this, but they all look at me like i just got off a UFO. I'm going to print this out, and put it up at work... Thanks


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## beezaur (Aug 7, 2003)

Truth in Advertising:

It would SEEM that all three kinds of nock travel should be identical, except that you are forgetting about two things -- friction and inertia (effect of mass).

Friction during draw is directed in the opposite direction as during letdown. This is why you can measure different poundages at the same point in the draw cycle from draw and letdown. It also affects the shape of the nock path.

The mass of the riser, limbs, and cams affect the shape of the nock path at release. The cams have to be "spun up," which actually takes a lot of energy. They also get thrown outward along with the limbs. The only restraints are provided by the cables and guard. It is a pretty violent process, not at all comparable to letdown.

The jist is that heavy things move slower than light things. That fact affects the actual path of various parts of the bow just as cam/cable geometry does.

Consider this: you have a bow with parallel limbs of the same poundage with a single cam. Then put some Limb Savers on the bottom limb. The lower limb has more mass now, and will move outward (downward) more slowly than the other limb. Result? Nock travel is very different during release compared to letdown.

Most bows are not that out of balance, but you should get the idea that the dynamic (moving) situation is a whole other kind of animal. Things which are often overlooked and counterintuitive come into play as very important factors.

Scott


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

Betcha "truth" is still shooting a solo cam trying to convince himself that it shoots o.k.


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## Travis VanDaele (Sep 30, 2002)

Makes sense to me, I guess this is why a lot of the single cam shooters have had lots of luck with the rests that give support from the bottom and the side.

Travis


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## Harald (Sep 12, 2003)

Hoggler did you try shoot thru systems like furry X?
It's my strong belive that getting rid of th cable guard (and maybe using two cams)will give you a much straighter
nock travel than "conventional single cams"
Can this be confirmed??


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## Twang! (Apr 20, 2002)

FS560, oh yeah and you are right on top of things yourself……………. Duh. Just keep lapping at the trough. The manufacturers will be slopping some more trash down the chute soon. Oink oink 

I may have shot a little long on my first post and I am sorry for coming off like a dumbass. I have tested dozens of bows on the market and the one thing that I do know is that they all follow the same path on the draw and the let down. ALL OF THEM. I had one bow that that did not follow the same track, and it was because one of the bushings was rusty and it was hanging at full draw. Once it broke free the nock travel returned to the normal track. Even with the cams grossly out of sync, they behaved the same letting down as pulling back. 

I suspect that hoggler has something wrong with his tracing device or he is holding the bow improperly. Is he holding the bow steady so it can’t self center as you draw? Is he pulling the bow at the center of the string or at the arrows location on the string? Does your drawing device maintain that plane as it pulls?

Don’t get me wrong I’m not talking about single cams. They do not have level nock travel. None of them. Even the fabled mathews. It did trace a straight line but it was not along the path of the arrow. It actually was at a vector to the centerline. 

Bezaur, that was a well though out response and partially correct, but it does not apply to standard nock travel tests as put forth in the magazines. Hysteresis and virtual mass does not come into play when the riser is fixed and the bow is just drawn and let down while tracing a line along the arrows path. 

But, I do agree with you that travel could be different while the bow is actually being shot due mainly to differing weight in the eccentrics or mismatched limb baubles. I also feel that the shooter can also greatly influence nock activity due to inconsistent shooting form.

Unless you are having problems with your method (bow moving, faulty tracing device, etc) you will get the same behavior in both directions, unless you make a cam adjustment at full draw before you trace it in the downward directions. 

Hoggler also mentioned cam lean as a factor in nock travel. I have not been able to accurately reproduce results that refutes or supports that claim. I can’t visualize that causing up and down nock travel problems. More testing to come on that matter.


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## Black Frog (Jun 11, 2002)

> I suspect that hoggler has something wrong with his tracing device or he is holding the bow improperly.


High speed video equipment and a Hooter Shooter?


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

Wheel lean seems to affect nock travel in both directions. But usually more in the side to side. 

If your wheel is leaning then it is no longer sitting in the plane the bow was designed in. As the draw peak increases the string (lobe of cam) is getting further away from the axle. If the cam is not sitting in the same plane then it is also going further to the right or left depending on lean. So in turn you get the wowing affect of string oscelation, this is true for 2 cams or solo cams.

There is alot of ways of measuring nock travel, mine is with the Hooter Shooter and high speed camera. All pictures taken of human shooters compared to machine had identical nock travel. In the end who cares what the nock travel looks like when it is drawn back or let down. Dynamic shot is where it matters, and I think you'll find that will be the future standard. (Note I have seen a computer graph the draw cycle of a bow, I consider to be a legitimate measuring tool, and they do graph out different) 

Whether you agree with the Spot~Hogg measuring stick or not, it is still a source of info that most people don't have the time or tools to investigate. 

But let me assure you we are not checking our tire wear, by looking at our dip stick.

I have checked into that martin bow system, very intriguing. For it to work perfect perfect (absolutely no lean, no movement, perfect). The axle holes have to be drilled perfectly straight, and the limbs have to be identical throughout. But definitely a huge step in the right direction of a true torque free bow the cam is doing it, just wish limb manufacturing could be as precise as machining aluminum(+ or - .001") then martin would have the only true torque free bow on the market.

In regards to the mathews statements, from my findings they have had some of the straightest nock travel I've seen (consistently straight dynamic nock travel). I just hate to see a legitimate product get bashed because of an emotional reaction to a advertising campaign.

Hoggler


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

There should be a AMO or IBO standard for straight nock travel so everyone can figure which bow is right.

If I believe that nock travel is important, at least I would know which one to choose!!


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## KennyB (Jun 8, 2003)

Thanks for the good information and the understanding of nock travel.I enjoy the news letters that you give out.I shot the state 3D with you and your brother by Hood River Oregon that was a fun day.You had all those names for your arrows Your hoggit sights are the BEST.Please pass on the info that you find in all your work it keeps the archery nuts going.


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## ijimmy (Jul 2, 2002)

Hoggler how do you get a bare shaft to shoot straight , when the bow has cabelgaurd toqure ?


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## superdiablo (Feb 7, 2003)

Hoggler, I can confirm your statement about Martin´s X system of cams. After having 6 different limbs (same weight though) installed in my C III fury-X, I only can wish that they could make limbs in such a range of tolerances and not what I actually tested and own ... The "system" is very impressive (the only one that responds with "logic" when tunning through paper and creep tunning it) but they do not have that "final touch" that I would like to have ...
Just my own experience.


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## beezaur (Aug 7, 2003)

> Bezaur, that was a well though out response and partially correct, but it does not apply to standard nock travel tests as put forth in the magazines. . .


Truth,

Holy cats, man!

I hope you aren't putting much faith in magazine articles! 

But I stand by my remarks; I believe they are fully correct.

I have actually measured the hysteresis you deny, and I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote about mass. . .

Scott


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

Something to keep in mind is that all risers flex and twist. Some of them will flex a lot. The shoot through risers don't twist so much, but I bet they do twist.

And even though the Hoyt system is "flawed" several folks have shot some pretty remarkable scores with it.


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

One more question that I've always had, does the type of release make a difference?

As an example, does a Talon head (just to pick a release) with the fixed jaw on one side shoot differently than with the fixed jaw on the other side of the string?


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I haven't checked into the differences between the caliphers with dual action jaws v.s. single action jaws. We have found a release that has rope being wrapped around the string underneath the nock does cause unnecessary string oscelation.

Rizor's twisting is a interesting subject, that seems to be what is going on. At least that's what I thought and explained to alot of people because it validates why 3rd axis matters and should be set at full draw. But through further investigation (my dad pointing it out, and me trying to prove him wrong) the rizor isn't actually twisting to itself. The rizor actually remains very straight, as straight as it is at static position (in relation to itself). What is happening is the limbs are not pulling straight down, but rather pulling down and towards the cable side. So as the limbs move down and to the side this causes your rizor to change orientation because your limbs twisted. So your sight and stabilizer will move to the right and your arrowrest will move to the left (example for a right hand shooter). Based on the results of every bow I checked this on, I'm thoroughly convinced that it's not the rizor twisting it's the limbs twisting. This is usually more amplified by split limbs. 

Most bows won't shoot a bare shaft straight, and the ones that do it usually has to be that perfect match of spine, weight, foc, and arrow length. In one of the examples I gave on another thread in the general area, my brother shot a bare shaft arrow at 20 yards indoors rotating the nock a 1/32 rotation until he was back to where he started from, the arrow walked the size of a small volley ball. That arrow was not landing straight in the target (it would consistently shoot the same arrow in the same sideways torn hole) it landed diagnally the whole way around the pattern it shot. Having straight nock travel does help a little bit, but in the end there is definitely more to this story of how to get a bare shaft to shoot straight. 

A while back I watched a program on the history channel about the history of the gun, they were touching on some of the same bumbs in the road that we as archers are running into. Trying to shoot a bare shaft arrow is alot like trying to shoot a large calipher bullet with no gyroscopic action. Without gyroscopics the bullet would tumble end over end. Which is essentially what we are experiencing with bare shafts, once the arrow leaves the bow it instantly starts losing it's orientation. Our fletches use drag & gyroscopics to help straighten the arrow out. It's alot harder to change the plain/pitch of an object that is spinning.

What I need is a straight nock travel bow and my arrow already spinning 500 rpm before I ever even shoot it LOL. Then I wouldn't need fletch's anymore. But then the weight of the motor in my arrow my cause me to lose some precious speed LoLoLoL. 

Hoggler


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## mecrowe (May 22, 2002)

Hoggler said:


> *What I need is a straight nock travel bow and my arrow already spinning 500 rpm before I ever even shoot it LOL. Then I wouldn't need fletch's anymore. But then the weight of the motor in my arrow my cause me to lose some precious speed LoLoLoL.
> 
> Hoggler *



Turbonocks??? 

--mike


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## KennyB (Jun 8, 2003)

Ok I got it we need to build a arrow rest that has a small lite motor that has rollers and it rotates the arrow. At the nock end of the shaft we have a bushing and nock with needle bearings this way the arrow can rotate at 500 rpm at fulldraw


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

*BARE SHAFT/NOCK TRAVEL*

In my experience if I can get a bow to shoot a perfect bullet hole at 5 ft 15ft and 30ft the bow will shoot a bare shaft perfect. I have shot a bare shaft in the same group out of a 52lb bow at a 26" draw with an arrow that has a deflected spine of .220. When your tuning a compound with a release your essentially trying to tune the power stroke of the bow down the center of the arrow. 
The longer the draw length more problems you will have with nock travel and tune in general. I cant get an arrow to bare shaft tune if I cant get it to paper tune. If you are getting a high left tear your bare shaft will go low right every time. Bare shaft tune isn't probably where you want to be anyway as every mistake you make will go which ever way you made the mistake. That is why a lot of shooters will tune a slight direction in their nock tear that ends up giving a little more forgiving setup. Broadheads are different and I recommend as close of a bare shaft tune as poosible.


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

Here is another thought, what about those pesky finger shooters? The nock is gyrating all over the place and the arrow is flexing like crazy. Somehow  the top guys manage to shoot that arrow into the center of the target.


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

I too have had access to some of the equipment that hoggler is using. I think the nock travel issue is alot of fuss about very little. 
The bows I've had access to( even with what we deem to be poor nock travel) would still shoot a one inch dot at 50 yards out of the hooter shooter. The bows with better nock travel would shoot a group about half that size at best. My point being,,,, When we now add the human factor is when the groups open up.
Conclusion...... The bows (straight nock travel or not) will shoot much better than we are capable of shooting. Just my opinion ./././..Derry


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

> I too have had access to some of the equipment that hoggler is using. I think the nock travel issue is alot of fuss about very little.


 With all due respect, there is much more to nock travel than meets the eye. How a bow shoots from a Hooter Shooter depends largely on how it is fixtured. I'll shoot against a hooter shooter at 70 meters any day of the week. Josh will tell you I bought one of the first Hooter Shooters and have used it extensively. But I use Apple's Ultimate Bow Tuning machine in my basement to measure nock travel. Anyone who has worked in an archery shop will agree that there are people who just cannot get a particular bow model to tune for them, and there are those that can. Why is that? Because any slight form variations are accentuated when the critical load is placed on the back of the arrow contarary to the plane of the force vector. Having straight and level nock travel will never work against you, it can only make your life easier. Better groups, higher scores, better arrow flight in the wind, etc. etc etc. The litmus test is not whether one archer can shoot good scores with a poorly designed bow or cam system, but whether the majority of archers improve using it. Certain bows just have some design variations that either promote or prohibit straight nock travel. Right hand bows with horrible right tears are not going allow you to shoot your best. And it's pretty tough with a right tear to make a change at all, short of removing the cable guard or buying new arrows. Horizontal nock travel is very important with regards to proper arrow shaft length and spine, and vertical nock travel is important all the time. If it wasn't the case, we would not have witnessed a mass exodus to mechanical broadheads when the single cam bows became popular. Not because they kill the animal any deader, but because they fly better for Joe bowhunter using a solocam bow that did not exhibit straight nock travel characteristics. Straight and Level that's the goal. No matter how you look at it, only a creep tuned shoot thru design can claim straight, level nock travel on both the vertical and horizontal plane. That's where this is headed, that's where it's at.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

JDES900X: I appologize, I never meant to imply that you were using the machine to check nock travel. The Hooter Shooter does not measure nock travel, our high speed camera does. I use the machine to check nock travel cause it's easier to time the point of release than my brother LOL, (when compared between human shooters and the machine the nock travel is identical). I was implying that top individual shooters can see the benefits of the machine (such as tuning, and arrow culming) please correct me if i'm wrong.

Good & Bad nock travel are equally accurate out of the Hooter Shooter. Both will put THE SAME ARROW IN THE SAME HOLE, but one is more FORGIVING than the other. Forgiveness would be the measurement of the pattern the bow shoots ALL of your arrows in the same hole at different distances. It's much more obvious at longer distances, but a straight nock travel bow will shoot the SAME TUNED ARROWS in a smaller pattern on the target than a bad nock travel bow will.

If i'm at full draw at sixty yards and I float on the target approximately a 1/2", does that mean I only need equipment that offers forgiveness of up to a 1/2". How can I expect to have pinpoint accuracy if my equipment CAN'T DELIVER IT. I want pin point accuracy no matter how much I float, straight nock travel is needed to achieve this level of forgiveness out of the equipment (Both bows can shoot one arrow equally accurate but what about all of your arrows?). Whether I'm on the spot or not, I like knowing that my arrows will hit exactly where my aiming reference is at.

Hoggler
Josh Johnson


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

Josh, 
I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I was merely making the point that too many people generalize all bows by saying " Any bow can shoot the same hole from a Hooter Shooter" But thats not the point. Bows with poor nock travel or other inate tuning characteristics ultimately determine just how accurate we as archers can be on our bad days. Many people over-generalize but I am of the belief that not all bows or cam systems are created equal. 



> I was implying that top individual shooters can see the benefits of the machine (such as tuning, and arrow culming) please correct me if i'm wrong.


 ABSOLUTELY!!!! There is no better way to check arrow flight, or group testing of arrows. 

Shoot straight Josh and say Hi to your Mom and Dad for me. Tell them Happy Thanksgiving for me !


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I agree, I sometimes I wonder whether people are catching what I'm saying in context. Just cause all bows can put the same arrow in the same hole, that does not mean that the bows are equal, it just means they're both consistent. How the bow responds to the equipment as a whole is a much more accurate measuring stick. 

Benefits of straight nock travel
1. Your arrows will shoot a tighter group
2. Bow won't be arrow sensitive (spine selection isn't as critical)
3. Broadheads will fly better
4. Arrow rest settings wouln't be as critical (side support, spring tension, etc.).

If you never shoot over 40 yards, and you only hunt your probably not going to see the benefit of good nock travel. But if a person is shooting 80 (competition shooters) yards then you could see a drastic difference between the forgiveness factors of the straight nock travel V.S. bad nock travel. Dealers set up bows all day long, imagine how much easier it would be to get people to a higher end setting. Happy shooters are repeat customers.

Hoggler


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## Kari Hämäläinen (Oct 19, 2002)

How about finger release? With finger release the truly are not straight and not level nock travel and still there are persons who can get very good scores. It is true that spine is more critical for finger release but there are still some window for spine variation.


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## npk (Mar 3, 2003)

*How about Oneida Pro??*

Has anyone check the nock travel on a Oneida Pro?? Oneida claimed that it is straight...any comments???


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Josh-

I have been reading your posts and feel you have made alot of excellent comments here, good job! I especially liked the part when you didn't allow yourself to get dragged into the "my bow is better than your bow" junk, this is what we need to see more of IMHO. It is obvious you have done a fair amount of testing also. Keep up the good work! 

Having said this, I have to respectfully disagree with your single comment that S&LNT will not make much difference to those shooting under 40 yds, and here's why----My reasoning here is that S&LNT makes a substantial difference when tuning and shooting broadheads in hunting situations, especially fixed blade heads. This applications' results are far more prevalent to me than when simply shooting parabolic points, even at distance.

The quicker the arrow can negate paradox, the more forgiving and accurate it will be downrange. This is as you mentioned one of the leading benefits of S&LNT and I agree wholeheartedly. Now take this just a step further-- If a broadhead doesn't fight that paradox because there is much less of it due to S&LNT, the bow will thus ultimately tune much easier and be more forgiving and thus more accurate to a degree, even with the fixed blade broadheads and hunting distances. S&LNT helps us considerably, in all situations, at all distances, simply because it is a much more forgiving system overall.

We all know how the influx of mechanical broadheads came to be---it was because of poor nock travel gremlins of designs in the early 90's and the resulting affects that these had on fixed blade broadheads, so everyone looked for an easy way out when it came to hunting setups--thus the mechanical became a huge success. S&LNT certainly helps cure this previous maladay. I personally find it now applicable to set-up customers with a much wider variety of arrow spines that previously could not be considered on other designs, and fixed-blade broadhead tuning is no longer the hair-pulling experience such as it was with other past models/designs that exhibited lesser or even poor nock travel.

Bottom line----IMHO S&LNT will help in ANY situation, and at ANY distance, because it allows the arrows to come out of the bow in a straight and level path, absorbing more energy, reducing shock, and negating critical paradox much more quickly. Thus, you have a much more forgiving system that is more accurate to boot. Simply put, it's a better mousetrap. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

Does S&LNT mean? Straight and level nock travel

I should of defined my statement better sorry, I was kinda stereotyping hehehe. The gain is there whether the shooter can SEE it or not.

It would be really hard to measure the gains you've made from getting better equipment if you yourself can't shoot accurate enough to see the benefits. If you are FLOATING 6" on the spot at 40 yards, it is going to be alot harder to realize that your groups tightened up an 1" from buying a straight nock travel bow over bad nock travel bow. The gain is there but if people can't see it they won't believe it. I believe straight nock travel is equally important for everyone, I don't believe some people will be capable of discerning the gains made from having it. 

A top shooter will be able to see the gains from more forgiving equipment much faster than a less practiced shooter will. 

You could have a magic sword in your hand but if you don't know how to use it, it wouldn't appear to be very magical.

Hoggler


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Hoggler…..

No doubt in my mind that straight and level nock travel is important. With that being said how does an archer know which bows are the best at it?? You won’t give any recommendations (and probably shouldn’t) manufacturers are not going to share the information with you. There are no standards through the ATA so what’s a guy to do??

1)	How do you go about testing for these characteristics? Now I know of several but what is the best and most repeatable (un-biased) in your opinion.

2)	What systems are more prone to have straight and level travel??

3)	Can a bow that does not have the best be improved upon?? What are the more common “fixes” that you can recommend. 

4)	On the bows that do have real good travel what are the things that could change this and make it not so good??

Now I know there is no magic formula but your thoughts would be greatly appreciated


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Now that I have re- read some of your post I see a lot of my questions have been already adressed 

But your thought on some of the others would be appreciated


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## cgchris99 (Apr 10, 2003)

I would sure love to see the specifics of this report regarding the different bow brands and models. I'm sure I'm not alone on this.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I wish I could share the info we have in full detail, but my hands are tied on the topic. 

I think that we will see a massive change on this topic, more people are becoming aware of it. We are sharing our info openly with the manufacturers, in hopes of positively encouraging them to make us a more forgiving piece of equipment. Until then we are stuck with bandaids, and bailing wire to fix our problems.

Things that can cause a good nock travel bow to not shoot straight.
1. Calipher release under the nock, (will cause approx. 1/4" rise in first 2" of arrow delivery)
2. Sloppy limb pockets (limbs will usually slop to the cable side which throws your cams out of alignment. This will cause up & down and Side to side nock movement.)
3. Not setting your wheel lean (a straight nock travel bow that no one took the time to set the wheel lean on will not appear to have straight nock travel. To do this your split harness must be served for 2" down, starting from where the cables naturally come together.)
4. Having a sticky grip (sims handle wrap), or unnecessary torque being put on the bow. (will cause side to side nock travel.) 
5. Improper nock height, arrowrest location, D-Loop with both knot's under or above the nock, pulling the string into your face, can all cause a straight nock travel bow to appear not straight.
6. Rope wrapped under the nock (standard rope release) will cause a similar string ocselation as a finger shooter just not as severe. 
7. Crooked axle holes

Set-ups that will help you get straight nock travel out of a bow that has straight nock travel capabilities. 
1. Shooting straight off a d-loop that straddles both sides of the nock.
2. Using as torque free of a grip as possible (we use cotton gloves)
3. Set your wheel lean so it has an even crossover from static to full draw.
4. Proper nock height, arrowrest location, etc.
5. Straight axle holes/no slop in limb pockets

If when you take all the suggestions into account you still cant get rid of a the 1/2" left tear no matter what you do then the chances are you have bad nock travel (side to side). Same goes for up and down if you can't get rid of a up and down tear no matter what you do then you probably got up & down nock travel. This could be the bow, the equipment your using with it, or maybe just you. 

People who shoot calipher releases will experience a tear high as stated above, this could work for you or against you. If I had a straight nock travel bow it would work against me cause now It would move high in the first few inches of release. Using a calipher release with a bow that by design wanted to dump low might end up helping counteract the downwards action being caused by the design of the cam. So it's a real custom deal for each persons situation.

Things that will help bad nock travel bows shoot better
1. Dumping low nock travel - calipher under the nock - use shim stock (lizard tongue) with spring tension locked up (if your arrowrest has it.)
2. Side to side movement - Side support on your arrowrest like a super star from golden Key - shoot with a slick glove - adjust your wheel lean.

Hope this helps I think i'm starting to confuse myself.

Hoggler


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## jrb CO (Dec 3, 2002)

*High Speed Camera*

Hoggler,

I would be interested to hear what high speed camera you use / recommend for evaluating some of these things you have mentioned.

Thanks.


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## andy_smaga (Sep 27, 2003)

*High speed camera*

Hoggler,
And what budget is necessary to acquire such an installation ?


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## Len in Maryland (May 21, 2002)

I hardly ever visit this part of the forum. Just looking into a search mode and found this thread that is close to my heart.

I can assure you that the finest of tuned bows can be affected by the dual jaw verses single jaw caliper releases. Which works best depends on the particular aspects (such as nock travel, wheel/cam lean, etc) of the system. What we usually do is use the same style of release as the customer when tuning his/her bow.

When you discuss limb twist and the probable cause being tolerancing in the limb pockets, I couldn't agree with you more. The worst that we have found is those designs that do not have the limb pockets properly secured to the riser. Having the limb pockets bolted to the riser is a much more secure design than having the limb pockets loosely 'fitted' to the riser. We have found the latter can allow excessive tolerance issues. We've found as much as .045 gap between the limb pocket and the riser in the latter designs. We've also found as much as .020 gap between the limbs and the pockets. With as much as .065 tolerance disparity, limb tip movement/lean is extremely excessive. Properly tuning a bow with this massive problem in next to impossible.

I, like Jim Despart, have both the Hooter Shooter and the Apple Ultra Tuning Machine. The man who designed the AUTM is a good friend and neighbor. We have done a lot of extensive tests using the AUTM above and beyond the norm. I couldn't have said it any better than Jim's 11/23 post. I agree with him totally on every aspect. Should anyone be interested in documented data, they're welcome to stop by my shop. Likewise, I will not discuss it further here or publish any results. 

The litmus test on arrow flight, as I see it, is with broadheads attached to the front of the arrow. This is where the forward 'rudder' tries to outdo the aft 'rudder'. If you don't get an arrow launching absolutely straight off the string, complications set in that may not be controllable. Field tips on arrows are far more forgiving. This is where Pinwheel 12 seems to have preempted me and done an excellent job of it.  

Good shooting to all.


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## XX75 (Jan 22, 2003)

First off, thanks to all who've posted on this pretty confusing, but important issue. That's what makes this forum such an incredible resource!

Question: can you affect (or correct poor) nock travel by twisting the cable or string on a single cam? I'm no master bow mechanic (just a fanatic tweaker), but it seems to me that it should.

Second question: any way a weekend warrior like myself could check nock travel on a single cam without a high speed camera or other fancy equipment?


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

Twisting strings to affect the up & down nock travel on solo cam will not make enough of a difference to usually completely get rid of the movement. Changing draw modules changes up and down nock travel more drastically. But more times than not the shorter the module used the more your nock travel will dump (down). 

Side to side you can do something about in some instances as stated in previous posts. But up and down you are at the mercy of the engineer who designed the cam. You will find that bows that require you to buy a cam for a specific draw length (no draw modules), will be more likely to deliver straight nock travel. 

Although it is a pain in the but as the manufacturer of the product (more overhead) same with the dealers, having to carry so many cams to accomodate all the different draw lengths. But the product will deliver straight nock travel (more forgiving bow).

AR & Mathews are two examples of bows that are offered in this format and both from my findings have very straight up & down nock travel. 

Hoggler


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## Futuredoc (Nov 3, 2003)

*question for hoggler*

Hoggler, what kind of bow do you shoot?

FD


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## -XX- (May 22, 2002)

Does comparing bare shaft and fletched shaft impact point give any indication of nock travel on a two cam bow.
I was going to refletch some arrows the other day after practicing so I started stripping some of them off between ends. Decided to shoot a couple of bare shafts just to see where they would impact on this bow. I had never tried bare shaft tuning on this bow but have on my single cam hunting bow that will shoot fletched arrows with broadheads, bare shaft with field pts, and fletched arrows with field pts to pretty close to the same spot.
At 20 yards shooting at the center spot on a five spot target the bare shafts would impact in the upper right 5 spot and fletched would land in the center spot X. I adjusted the rest every which way but loose but could never get it to change more than 2 or 3 inches. Checked the timing and it appeared the top cam might be hitting just a tad early. Reset rest to normal position and adjusted the timing but went a little to far, figured I would see what would happen anyway. Bare shafts moved down to the bottom right 5 spot. Reset timing and the bare shafts impacted about 2 inches high but still to the right. Put 1/2 twist in top cable and impacted about 2 inches low and still to the right. This was all after resetting sight to hit the center X with fletched shaft after adjustments.
Did a creep tune check afterwards and appeared to be as good as ever from what I could tell after shooting so much.
Just wondering if this was a valid way to check timing on all two cams and if the bare shaft inpacting right gave any indication of horizontal nock travel. Maybe next time I refletch I will play with yoke adjustments as I m sure my time could be better spent on practice instead of tuning.


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## Futuredoc (Nov 3, 2003)

*PSE*

PSE is claiming that high speed camera and CAD verify straight and level nock travel on their Primos STL. Hoggler, do they use the same testing equipment that you do? In other words, do you believe them?

FD


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

Most everyone at Spot~Hogg is shooting the mathews bows. 

If your bare shafts land sideways, or at a severe angle in the target then it is probably safe to say that the nock travel isn't the greatest. If it lands straight in the target but is 3+ inches away from the fletched ones point of impact then i'm not really sure what is going on. Would need to work on the bow in person to be able to get a better grasp as to what it is that you're dealing with. 

PSE Bows? First and foremost I'm sure Pse has way more advanced camera equipment then ours. Ours gets the job done but it is black and white, they had color high speed camera back in the early 90's if not late 80's. 

I have not seen the primo's line of bows yet, no one I know owns one. I have seen the Cameron Hanes blacktail series bow, and it shoots straight up & down and side to side if shot with a d-loop straddling the nock. If shot with a calipher under the nock it looks like it rises in the first 2 inches of the release.

The AR shoots straight, the black tail series shoots straight, I wouldn't be suprised if the primo's bow shot straight too (I am assuming it isn't a two cam bow).

If a bow has two mirror image cams, but the arrow is not being shot out of the true middle of the bow (measure from axle to axle devide by two) then it would be impossible to deliver straight nock travel. Your nock travel will move like (~). It won't just dump down like standard solocam bad nock travel. It will usually go low first then cross back over to a rise before the string has completed the cycle (or vice versa depends on how you timed your cams). 

A bow company made a cam many years ago that was designed to fix this problem by making non matching cams, designed to match straight delivery where the arrow is truly being shot out of the bow usually a 1" to 1 1/2" above the middle of the bow. But when the cams changed shape from one another they also changed in weight distribution. So they wouldn't roll over as designed one would move faster then the other would play catch up, defeating the goal of getting straight nock travel. (This is a rough jist as to why the system didn't respond properly.) 

A Two cam bow is the most tunable, but the solocam seems to be capable of giving straight nock travel (if designed properly).

Once again it seems that you can't have your cake and eat it too. For everything you gain you lose something else, the question is which is more important.

Hoggler


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

Check this device out. It monitors nock travel using a Laser.
Dave T


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

And this at full draw. Yes this is a Hoyt.


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## Len in Maryland (May 21, 2002)

Is there more to these pictures that I'm not seeing?


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

If you look, you can see a laser mounted in front of the bow projecting onto the nock point, at full draw it is stillpointing at the nock point.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I'm not totally grasping how it's being used to measure nock travel, could you elaborate please.

Hoggler


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## tmoran (Dec 9, 2003)

I like the idea of watching the laser dot on the string during the draw cycle. As long as the laser is shooting a level line I think it's a great tool. As far as the dynamic shoot itself, the laser wouldn't do anything for tuning. What about left and right travel, would the laser address this?


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

The laser is set up so that it is aiming at the nocking point (static)prior to pulling the bow back and then pulling the bow back using the shooters hand position and release and seeing if the laser is still aiming at the nocking point. What I did not show was how I initialy aim the laser. To determine if a existing set up is correct I shoot the laser through a arrow the size that the bow is set up for cut off so I can shoot through it and light up the nock. When I have the laser in the exact plane of the arrow I remove the arrow and pull back the bow. If the nock travel is straight and the bow does not twist, the laser is still pointing at the nock. I also use the laser to set up the bow initially. It will help you to position nocking point and wheel sync to get straight nock travel in the plane of the arrow. I do the initial set up by moving the nocking point to get the proper nock position, while maintaining the arrow in a 90 degree position.
Dave T


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

*nock travel*

here's something that I found pretty interesting. While doing some testing with our Hooter Shooter with my ultra-tec w/spiral cams I could get 6 out of 9 arrows to use the same exact hole at 30yds and I had 3 that would hit 3/4" right no matter what I did with the nock position in relation to the cock vane. A new addition to Mathews Pro staff I recieved two new bows one of them the Pro star whick is a custom long draw guy bow that they dont advertise but is a sweet shooter with the straight line cam. I decided to shoot these same arrows and see what results I got. I was amazed. Every arrow used the same hole at 30yds out of this new bow. The only thing I can figure out is a more gentle arrow launch and better nock travel. Any other ideas? I also have a Conquest 3 that I set up with the new x-cutter ultra-light arrows. With 2.5 inch feathers 120 grain point at 60lbs 31 3/4" draw the first group out of the new hooter shooter was about the size of a quarter at 30yds. Within 30min I rotated nocks on the outer arrows and had all 8 arrows using the same hole. What an amazing tool! Takes the guess work right out of things. I am just curious as why those two bows shot an overly stiff arrow at around 55lbs differently? I think this nock travel issue has had a lot to do with some of the problem bows I have had over the years and I can understand Matt Mcpherson being upset because I believe he is definitely well versed with what make a bow accurate.


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

*bare shafts*

XX--try super tuning your paper tear before you go to bare shaft. I have had bows that wouldn't shoot a hole through paper no matter what you did to them consequently they will never shoot a bare shaft the same as a fletched one. Assuming you are shooting a release, if you can get a perfect bullet hole at 5 ft 10 ft and 20ft I think you will find that the bare shaft will fly like the fletched one. If you are shooting a high right hole the bare shaft will react exactly the opposite and go low left as there is no vanes there to correct the flight of the arrow. Try and let me know what you come up with.


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

*X-cutter*

x-cutter,
How did the velocity compare between the two bows? Maybe it is an arrow spine problem between the arrows (variance between arrows, remember those were not Easton arrows). The Mathews may be set at the correct weight for the arrows. Change the draw weight on the Hoyt and see if you can get the same result. My Laser measurments show a perfectly straight nock travel with the Cam 1/2 Hoyts. How ever I have not tested a Spiral Cam.
Dave Tx-cutter,


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

Hey Tim !!!!
Fill me in on The pro star if you would. I've never had one in my hand. Is that the bow that Brian Marcum shoots?
I've been Working with a straight line cam since the world was over and totally convinced that it's the cam for me. What's the specs and what kind of speed can you get out of it?
If you' don't wanta get off track on this thread then just send me a pm ,,, Thanks ....Derry


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

One time I was tuning arrows and found a weird phenomenon. I had 6 arrows, 4 of them landed in the same hole right off the bat, and the 2 flyers both used different holes. I nock turned but in the end I was only able to get 1 of the 2 flyers to use the same hole as the group of 4. 
So I tried to turn the nocks on the now group of 5 that shared the same hole. I was able to get the 5 to all group into another hole that matched with the oddball arrow. 
I have found that sometimes majority doesn't rule. Sometimes it pays to go through all the orientations. 

Nock travel measured by drawing the bow back is not a true representation of dynamic nock travel. To believe that a bow is giving straight nock travel because it draws straight would require alot of blind faith. 

I've never seen a two cam that can deliver dynamic straight nock travel. I have only seen straight nock travel on a select few solocams. 

The 2000 hoyt vortec had straight nock travel, but I beleive they licensed that cam from mathews. At least it sure looked like mathews cam.

Hoggler


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

what is it about a two cam that has you believe it doesnt deliver straight dynamic nock travel, any reasons for this?


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

Hoggler
I think that because I am using a method different to your own you are having a hard time accepting it. I have not attacked your method yet, how ever I am sure fault can be found with it. I was trying to provide a means for the back yard tuner to get a representaion of nock travel. When you can provide help in this area feel free.
Dave T

PS: I enjoy reading your posts, normally.


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## Capo (May 21, 2002)

Hoggler,

Just curious, but have you ever tested out one of the Red Man bows. I'd be interested in any info there.

Thanks,


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

I think the Red Man bow with the different wheel sizes was on the right track. If your arrow is in the center of the riser then you do not need any special Cams to get level nock travel.
Dave T


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I haven't looked at the red man bow yet, we get to see the bows that our local pro shop carry's, we buy, or friends of ours buy, no one I know owns the red man bow.

If a two cam has mirror image cams, and the nocking point is located above the (true) middle of the bow. The nock travel will be in a ~ pattern. First it will dump then rise. 

Note: I'm not saying a two cam bow can't have straight side to side nock travel. I'm saying I haven't SEEN a two cam with DYNAMIC straight up & down nock travel, that doesn't mean they don't exist but based on what I've seen i'm not gonna hold my breath.

Shooter- I'm not trying to poke holes in your measuring methods, but I/we (Spot~Hogg) stand firm that dynamic nock travel should be the standard measurement. From our findings it's not where the nock is at static compared to full draw, but rather what it does in between during the DYNAMIC cycle.

Hoggler


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

Hoogler
I here you, I was trying to make something you could use at home.
Dave T


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

So Hoggler….

IF you used shootest method and put the bow on a crank board or shooting machine and kept an eye on the nock point during the draw watching for movement of the laser up or down the string during the draw cycle… perhaps butting just a white nock on the loop to make it easier to see… would the results be a good indicator of nock travel??


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

Hoggler, what does the dynamic nock travel look like for hybrid cams?


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## Capo (May 21, 2002)

Hoggler,

Thanks for the reply. The RedMan bow has the grip in the center with the nocking point above. But as Shootest suggested, the top cam/wheel (string track) is larger than the bottom -- which wheels out more string. This is supposed to compensate for the off-center nocking point. Just wondering if anyone ever checked it out to see if it really works.


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

Hey Dave,
The arrows I was shooting are a 220 deflected spine. Extremly stiiff! To put that into perspective the 2613 is .275 deflected spine. I was only shooting at 55lbs on both bow so I can guarantee they aren't too weak. Talking to Colin Booth the other day he said it was probably the draw force curve. I shot our new Ultra-light X-cutters out of a conquest 3 which hits the back of the arrow a whole lot harder and the spine is softer about the same as a 2613 and my first group at 30 was 1" and in a half an hour turning nocks and it came into all arrows into the same hole at thirty. I have tested a lot of arrows including ACC's which have the finest spec for straightness/weight/and spine range variance and I still had 3 brands of carbon arrows including Gold Tips that shot as good or better groups. The carbon arrow recovers so much faster and I'm led to believe that the acceptable spine range is somewhat larger with an all carbon shaft--no composites- than with aluminum and aluminum/carbon. One great thing is once you have a great set of arrows they will stay that way.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

Capo: Who is making the Red Man bow?

Olink: What cam are you refering to as a Hybrid cam?

Shooter: I meant no offense, I'm just stating our results. I think that most shooters are waiting for a way of testing there dynamic nock travel that doesn't require a $17,000 high speed camera.

Hoggler


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## Capo (May 21, 2002)

Hoggler,

The RedMan bows were originally made by Loyd Napier - Native American Archery.

They're now available from Barnsdale Archery. Dave also manufacturers the Barnsdale Classic - using the same wheel system.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Capo-

If one throws a larger cam on one end of a conventional twin cam, my thoughts are that altho the vertical nock travel path may in fact be straight and level during static testing, with a conventionally harnessed bow that does not have a mirror-image cam system one limbtip would move significantly different than the other during the draw/shot cycle because of the differing string radius of the larger cam. Thus it would also need an offsetting module of differing cable track size on the larger cam to compensate in take-up to offset this-- which could get very confusing for not only dealers and end users, but could also become a general pain for the manufacturers themselves, especially when you throw differing drawlengths into the mix too.. Much simpler overall IMHO to NOT do that, eliminate one module altogether,(saves money, time, and inventory for manufacturers) turn one buss into a control cable, and thus effectively have straight and level nock travel AND the joy of simplicity to boot. Certain solocam and hybrid designs also exhibit this type of differing limbtip travel, which is not conducive to finding the best forgivenesss, accuracy, and holding characteristics. (no, I'm not going to go there, so don't ask. ) Best thing is to slap your favorite bow in a crankboard, run it out to full draw, pencil around the limbtips, and then slowly let it down a bit, pencil again and then measure it... do they move in unison? You may be surprised. If it moves in unison, THEN if you can draw a straight and level nock travel path, you're golden.

Ultimate bow performance isn't all just about whether or not an arrow flies straight and level out of a bow--that is of course a huge and integral part of it but it must also do so with everything working in tandem for the bow to provide the utmost forgiveness, efficency, and accuracy, especially at distance. I know from experience that some designs are clearly missing the boat on this one, while others are not. JMHO. Happy Holidays, Pinwheel 12


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## Capo (May 21, 2002)

Now Pinwheel 12 .....

See now ..... you've got me thinking and visualizing and what not and you know that there ain't no good that ever comes out of that ....  

It hurts every time I try to figure it out ... 



Here's the scoop on the first Archery Talk Puzzler:

*
* The cable tracks are identical and in sync at brace and at full draw.

*
* The cable track, top and bottom, rotate at the same speed and take up the same amount of cable.

*
* The top string track (wheel) is 1/2 inch larger in diameter than the bottom on a 28 inch true draw wheel.

*

Therefore: the tangential velocity of the upper wheel is greater while the rotational velocity at the axle is the same on both wheels. Both limbs should move at the same rate -- I think ...  .... this hurts .... 


See what you've done, now I got to go dig up the crank board and a couple pencils before I rest .... 

The bow shoots real straight though ...

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays ....


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Capo-

 Sorry, didn't mean to hurt the old squash! 

You may be correct in your assumption about the larger cam twin----I quickly thought it through while typing but after looking at your "puzzler", you could in fact be correct because I didn't take into account the unlevel travel of a conventional twin to begin with. (We all have moments, yes. ) Let me know what you come up with--- I unfortunately do not have one of Lloyds' bows here. Thanks. Merry Christmas, Pinwheel 12


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

Hoggler - when I said hybrid I was referring to the Hoyt Cam and 1/2, Darton C/P/S, and/or Merlin Omega.


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

I am confused!

first I hear some pros talking about the straight and level knock travel problems of single cam bows

now you guys are saying the twins are the ones with most of this problem?

which is it? can you at least tune the twin cam to get rid of this and make it straight?


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

Another thing to consider when the cams (or wheels or idlers) are not the same mass, they can recover (accelerate) differently during the dynamic shot. This is why the crank boards and other machines are not 100%, because you are controlling the acceleration as opposed to allowing the limbs to naturally accelerate upon release.


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

Rob Vos
You're right on the money with with your different weight between the cam and idler.When I was working on R&D several years ago we had several diffrerent cam designs made with varying amounts of cutouts in the idlers. Thus changing the weight of the idlers and changing the limbtip speed. This made a huge difference in the bow tune. There are some companies addressing this aspect very well now.,,.,.,. Good shooting,.,.., Derry


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## Shootest (Aug 22, 2002)

Yes you can tune the two cams. The method of shooting at the front and rear of the valley was doing that. The California guys would tell you that there bows always shot better with the top wheel leading a little. The problem with this is the newer wheels have stops. So they have to be timed the same. When I shot a two cam I would build up the cable where it hit the cam stop on the bottom cam. Trial and error. Until the arrows did not hit high/low for different draw lengths and still had a solid wall. When we shot round wheels you could adjust the wheel position (timing) with out being concerned with a stop.
Derry, that is interesting on the weight thing, we tried adding weight to a cam to see if it changed velocity and it did not effect it.
Dave T


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

Dave 
We were playing with the idlers and leaving the cam the same.
We found the lighter idlers to be faster,,, no surprise.BUT The surprise came in how changing the idler's mass weight changed the tune of the bow. At the time we were doing this we didn't have the hooter shooter yet or the camera equipment so the tests were a bit on the crude side,but by changing idler weight we could make a big change in the paper tune and the group tuning. Which idler worked best would vary with the draw length. Like I said the tests were crude but the best we could do at the time ,..,.,. Derry


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

So Derry...

Hypothetically would it be "best" to make the Idler and the Cam weigh the same?? Or was there some value having the idler actually HEAVIER then the cam??


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## McAccurate (Feb 3, 2003)

*Hoggler*

Excellant post, well thought out and full of solid info.

Thanks
Dave


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

Center x
We were using the perimeter cam which was heavier than the heaviest idler that we experimented with. The heavier idler allowed us to tune much easier with a bare shaft. This we attributed to the limb tips moving more equally. 
Another thing we tried was idler size difference. Not only did this change the tiller. It made a noticable difference in the tune and the aiming. Like I said earlier ... These test were very basic but does give some food for thought.
If your bow will bullet hole with a bare shaft or close to it then you can feel pretty sure that the design is sound. If you decide to try this wrap tape on the back of the shaft to make up for the vein weight. I shoot a Q2XL and I can get 2512's to bullet hole. 
2412's shoot about a shaft high tear at 5 yards and I think when the tuning is all done the 2412's group better. That may just be because they're lighter and off the bow sooner. Good shooting ,.,.,. Derry


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Exactly on the issue of stops, Dave T.

I have found that a slightly weaker spine top limb will help. Even with some limb stagger there is a need for a little wheel stagger also.

If your limbs are of equal spine and your cams have non adjustable stops, there is no way out except to adjust the cams for the stops and shoot a high tear for best scoring. Or to do as you suggested and use different cable diameters so the cam positions can be staggered like they should.

With round wheels and no stops we never had to creep tune because the stop was not the major influence.

I have also found that bows with the center halfway between the throat and the arrow are much less sensitive to this issue and therefore I always try to position the arrow as low in the window as possible.

While the different wheel diameter idea is a start, I think it is possible to design a top and bottom cam of a two cam bow to produce the nock path desired. (Cam 1.5, CPS, and other hybrids are not what I am talking about because they are 1 cam bows).


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

Derry, 
What I have found out about tuning and such is the reason your 2412 probably shoots more forgiving is because you have given it a direction every time it comes out of the bow regardless of what effects you put on the bow that differ from shot to shot. I have always been able to bare shaft a bow if I can get it to shoot perfect bullet holes at 5 ft/ 15 ft / and 30 ft. I can say tuning this way is great for fixed blade broadheads but found the bow to be less forgiving than a slight high left tear at 15 ft. That is because you are giving the arrow a vertical and horizontal direction. The paper tear at 5 ft should look almost like a bullet hole but as you get to 15 ft about a 1/2" tear and starting to recover completely by 15 yds.


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

Tim 
I'm in total agreement with you. Now that we know this we should shoot perfect every time. Right ?


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

If the nocking point is above the middle of the riser then to get level nock travel on a twin cam the string track should be slightly larger in diameter. You can get some of this effect by making the string thicker on the top.

I don't think it makes any real difference, my shooting ability isn't high enough to show it, but here is what I do:

- I don't tie the end of the strings together, I overlap and serve over the strands.

- I usually make two color strings.

- I have the overlap for both colors on the same end of the string.

So for a 20 strand string, one loop has a diameter due to 20 strands, and the other loop has a diameter of 24 strands.

As I said, it is a small difference, but since I make my own strings, and it doesn't make the string any more difficult to make, I do it this way.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

If up & down nock travel was rated on a scale of 1-10, 1 being the worst and 10 perfect no movement. 

The two cams are in the 6-7 range, sometimes a 8 depending on draw length, axle to axle, etc., longer the better. 

The solo cams seem to be split, solo cams that require a specific cam for each individual draw length are 9-10. The solocams that use modules to change draw length are 4-5, sometimes a 6 depending on draw length, axle to axle, etc.. Usually the longer the better, the shorter the draw length the worse the nock travel would look on module cams.

The hybrids whether module or individual cam for draw length adjustment both are a 5-6.

Hoggler


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

Hoggler you are saying some things here that are very surprising to me.

basically your are saying that certain one cams , have a big advantage over all other cams in this respect.

especially with all the talk about hoyts new cam 1/2, dartons cps, ans merlins omega, which most would hear about how these cams produce straight nock travel, yet you are saying they are of the worst?

I wonder if i should really believe you? LOL, because if i do that means we are all being taken for suckers by many archery companies.


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## jrb CO (Dec 3, 2002)

Hoggler,

Did you notice the test done at huntersfriend.com (?) where they evaluated nock travel during the draw and let down cycle of a couple of bows. The Bowtech had terrible nock travel (single cam with changeable modules).

Have you compared this way of measuring nock travel with dynamic high speed photograhic evaluation? Is there a correlation?

Since most of us cannot buy the equipment necessary to evaluate nock travel during the dynamic shot, a simpler test like this would be useful if it correlates.

Thanks.


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## Olink (Jan 10, 2003)

Keep in mind that Hoggler is refering to DYNAMIC nock travel, recorded by high speed cameras. The propaganda sheets that bow companies publish never really tell us how they measure nock travel, or if it is dynamic or static. But rest assured, it will be with whatever method makes their product look the best.


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## Derry Null (Oct 19, 2003)

Josh 
Here's a little something I found years ago playing with a hooter shooter. Bare shaft !!!! The bows that would shoot the bare shaft in or near the same spot as the rest of the fletched arrows were invaribly the bows with the best nock travel. A little tape on the back of the shaft will make up for the lack of fletching. This is also great for finding out which shaft your bow prefers. If you haven't tried this yet give it a try and see if you find the same thing that I have .,.,. Derry
Ps. One point I do differ with you on is the cams with modules. We found the short draw and the long draw to have the worst nock travel and one of the modules in the middle to be very close.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

My post was intended to cover our general results, I am not trying to imply that these rating will be 100%. There will always be the lemon and cherry (concistency of the assembly line) factor to deal with.

Hoggler


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Hoggler-

I would really like it if you could forward me copies of the video tapes and drawn NT graphs of each cam design and bow models you tested with which you determined those figures above if you would be so kind? Altho I do respect your point of view as an archer and your company as well, unfortunately I cannot buy into these "on a scale of one to ten" results and really would like to view the data from where you came to these highly prolific and absolute conclusions for ALL cam designs. After having tested many brands and cam designs myself over the years through many methods, I can assure you that certain hybrids (and more than one brand also) would rate FAR higher than "5-6" -- more like a "9-10" I would readily surmise-- easily as high as any conventional solo made today also I'll venture. True altho there are also some hybrid designs that do not offer perfectly S&LNT, make no mistake that there are also some that do....I'm assuming you haven't had a chance to test them all, therefore IMHO you shouldn't "call the whole game" just yet. ... no absolute determination on any design unless you test them all... You yourself stated you were not going to get into this back in the beginning of the thread, and then you did anyway, so now I have to call you on it because I knew where it was going to head. 

When compared to any conventional twin cam (that only offers straight travel by the way, we've already been over this and you are correct) or modular solo, (terrible nock travel at most drawlengths--porpoise) there is no contest between them and some current hybrid designs, IMHO.

A conventional solo can indeed offer straight and level travel at all drawlengths, but as you so correctly stated, only by changing up the cam radius for each individual drawlength, and not just via modules. We've found that this really isn't cost effective to the consumer and irritates the heck out of them actually should they wish to shorten or lengthen their drawlength a bit,(for $100? LOL) nor does it do them any good when it comes time for resale as opposed to designs that offer a 3" or more range either on the cams or via inexpensive modules, and with a deesign that will STILL offer the S&LNT. (it does make both the manufacturer and dealer extra gobs of cash tho, yay for us!  LOL) Gotta look at it from all angles also for best "efficiency" of a design and not just what works best in the absolute.

So anyway, sorry to be long-winded. If you could, please PM me and give me an address and I'll be happy to furnish a company check to cover shipping expenses and costs associated with any copying--I would really appreciate the opportunity to view the results of your testing first hand and see for myself where I may be mistaken with mine.  Respectfully, Pinwheel 12


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Threadkiller...


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

threadkiller killed it all to hell!


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I never stated that we checked all brands/models, matter fact I thought I made it pretty clear that we didn't.

That's why I noted my info could never be 100%, there is too many variables. I was trying to give a good head start as to what might be expected, not what will always be (nor was I trying to imply on a scale of 1 to 10 an absolute result).

As for my video info, our doors are always open. But we have a policy about letting copies leave the facility's, people may come in and view but we won't give away/e-mail copies to take home.

I agree its a pain to have to change cams everytime you want to change draw length. For everything you gain you always lose something somewhere else, in this case to gain concistent straight nock travel you lose convenient adjustablility. Is it worth it, well that's up to the customer. As a competition shooter it's very important and worth it to me.

I will be more careful in the future, I didn't realize generalized info would be turned into the brass tax facts. I guess I should of known better.

Hoggler


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Hoggler-

Thanks for your reply. I may have been a bit short in my last post, and I apologise for that. All I'm trying to do here is make everyone aware that if you are indeed going to be testing cam designs and claiming "ratings", make sure you check "the best" of each design before claiming any "ratings". (You did that with the Conventional solos--rated according to the best when in fact many of them exhibit very poor NT-- while on the other hand you rated the hybrid from the "poor" side instead of going with the results from the best of them) Otherwise people get incorrect info on a multitude of products, and as manufacturers and techs and reps of various companies, it is our responsibility to ensure that people find the correct info on all products from people like ourselves. (Basically leave the "opinions" to those who have no such entitlements) JMHO.

I visit old friends in Sweet Home every so often, and know you are only a short bit away from there in Harrisburg. I would certainly like to swing by and see your facility and view/compare notes the next time I am in the area--( quite possibly this spring) and maybe I'll even bring a "top" hybrid by for you to test while I am there. Until then, peace, and good shooting---I'll try to stop over and say "Hi" at the ATA as well.  Pinwheel 12


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Dont be put off by those with their own barrow to push hoggler, I for one have enjoyed the plain honesty you presented your findings with. Keep up the good work.


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## Hoggler (Jul 2, 2003)

I hunt in the hills out of sweet home, interesting. You are more than welcome to come by I would love to spend a afternoon showing you some of my information. We'll have to chat at the ata show in a couple of weeks. 

Which one of the hybrids do you believe to be dynamic straight?

Which solo cam system are you saying is not dynamic straight?

Just curious.

Hoggler


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Hoggler-

No need to throw gas on this fire and keep the banter going IMO. But I do know of both---hybrids that are straight and level, and solos that are not even close. The flip side is that there are also hybrids that are not, and solos that are, you were partially correct on that one. AND, it all can be debated until the cows come home--at the end of the day, we'll all believe what we want to anyway.

So, as I said, I'm not going to throw gas onto the fire here. I look forward to speaking with you at the show. 

The hills of Sweet Home... Muleys.... Them roads up there are something! (Watch out for the logging trucks! LOL. You guys from around that area are probably used to that tho  ) Pinwheel 12


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

P12, by the very tone and content of your last message you did throw more gas on the fire.

Have you observed "proof" that your beloved Merlins have perfectly a straight nock path in the vertical plane, assuming that it is worth the price of admission.


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## oscag (Feb 20, 2003)

I for one want to thank hoggler for all the good info


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## JayBuck (Oct 3, 2003)

Thanks Hoggler for your info!! 
Mathews Lx !!!! Yeah!!!


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## cut leaf (Jan 4, 2004)

hoggler that is some great stuff! I also have done testing of my own at the university that i attend very similar to your experiments and though it is true that the variables are great there is some constants that can be maintained so that you may derive a conclusion.Obviously the big thing was solo vs. hybrid.All bows were set up at 80% of max draw weight,paper tuned and shot by a mechanical machine,etc.I agree with you when you say that a hybrid cam system tunes easier and altough we were able to achieve fair nock travel on most of the bows our results were that bow design outside the cam geometry also played an important part in straight nock travel for instance the mathews legacy had good nock travel but the mathews fx did not(both single cam).Earlier solo cam bows also didn't have good nock travel I believe that the more engineering that went into solo cam design resulted in riser design also,helping nock travel.I would like to meet up with you and show and compare data.Ultimately I feel that the bow which stays in tune longer with straight nock travel gets my vote and it was found that the solo cam went out of tune quicker than the hybrid because of the long string, which stretches after a few hundred shots, resulting in the nocking point to move.Guys please remember i'm not triing to bash any company.(I own a mathews!)


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

ttt


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## cgchris99 (Apr 10, 2003)

I went to the Seminar at the ATA show that was put on by Spot-hogg. Very, very interesting stuff.


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