# What is close enough?



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I want to know what 3D'ers think is "close enough". It's a simple question.

If a couple of folks suggest that "close" is "touching" then what exactly is "close". 1/16th of an inch? .25"? Some folks can't define "porn" but know it when they see it. Is that how "touching" is defined on the 3D course for some of you?

How far does a line have to be "pulled" for an arrow to touch? If the outside of the line is "pulled" a 1/16" is the shaft automatically touching? What about if the line is pulled a good 1/8"? 

There are folks that feel out there group before deciding what defines "touching" and the definition all too frequently followed isn't factual...........

Hypothetically speaking standing in front of a shot target would you call out some one that suggests hitting within a 1/4" is close enough? Even if it's obviously 3 against one? What if it's your arrow that is "pulling" the line?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> I want to know what 3D'ers think is "close enough". It's a simple question.
> 
> If a couple of folks suggest that "close" is "touching" then what exactly is "close". 1/16th of an inch? .25"? Some folks can't define "porn" but know it when they see it. Is that how "touching" is defined on the 3D course for some of you?
> 
> ...


At our state championship I was elected to call the scores. I ran into one line/arrow I couldn't really define. It was that "close." Remedy; If you can't call it out, then it's in. I gave the higher score.


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

That's what I like about golf. It's either in the hole or it isn't....not much up for debate other than number of strokes.

Maybe they should put little metal wire rings around each scoring area like in darts. It's either on one side or the other. That would solve it to but likely not to the satisfaction of those that benefit from the generous calls. 

It's really begun to turn me off to 3d this year because I'm always the "bad guy" calling it like it is. I'll take being the honest one vs the other option.


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## baird794 (Dec 2, 2006)

there is no pulling the line u arrow has to be touching the outside line. foam will stretch but if u do not touch the line it's out no debate. if u want to call a better score just cause u pulled the outside line towards ur arrow tough u should make a better shot and u won't have to worry about it. just my 2 cents. it is what it is


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

It's either touching the line or not. If you can see foam between arrow and line it's out.


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## builditall (Mar 24, 2006)

If I have to look at it that close the benefit and the higher score goes to the shooter. I like to see "meat" between the shaft and ring to call it out.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I call it what it is dont matter if its mine, my son or my best freind, if i can see meat between the arrow and the line its out, if target is shot up bad and there is doubt i will give the higher # to shooter- we call it like it is no pencil pushing


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

builditall said:


> If I have to look at it that close the benefit and the higher score goes to the shooter. I like to see "meat" between the shaft and ring to call it out.


I heard the same things at different times this past weekend...........

 How close does one have to look? It seems you are saying that you shouldn't look closely at whether an arrow is touching a line. A simple glance and if it's "close" then it's "touching"? 

How much "meat" is enough to be out? How thick is "meat"? Shaved ham, hardy country sliced ham, filet mignon or beef steak? 

I do respect you're courage to publicly state your opinion.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

3Dblackncamo said:


> I call it what it is dont matter if its mine, my son or my best freind, if i can see meat between the arrow and the line its out, if target is shot up bad and there is doubt i will give the higher # to shooter- we call it like it is no pencil pushing


Exactly how thick is "meat"?


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Close is never close enough. It is either touching the line or it is not touching the line.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

If the scoring ring was a bell rather than a line, I take the method of, If the bell would have rung from the arrow, it was a hit. I believe a better way to score would be to have the "Score caller" To have a ruler and on calls that are questionable, score all the easy to call arrows and pull all those arrows and leave the arrow in question. Now pull the ruler and set one end on the scoring edge and lay it across the center of the ring. Now mark on the ruler where the opposing ring crosses under the ruler. Now lightly touch the arrow in question with the end of the ruler laying it across the center of the scoring area. If the pencil mark is inside the outside edge of the scoring ring then it's a miss. If the pencil mark is touching the scoring line or outside the line it's a hit. If it's still a toss up, tie base goes to the runner. If it's still a toss up. Give everyone a Midol and call me in the morning. :wink:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

reylamb said:


> Close is never close enough. It is either touching the line or it is not touching the line.


Exactly.

The actual measure of what is "close" is relative, what constitutes the "width" of meat is subjective and neither is found anywhere in the definition of touching.

The reason there is so little response to my original question is because too many 3D'ers don't look "closely" at arrows and don't believe an arrow has to actually touch the higher scoring line to receive the higher score. Even if the whole group agrees an 1/8th inch is "close enough" the rules state the arrow must touch the higher scoring line to receive the higher score. Heck, I suspect for some an 1/8th inch doesn't even constitute "meat"..................

I may try to shoot all the IBO Triple Crown shoots next year just to watch heads explode when I show folks when an arrow is and isn't "touching".


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## bishjr (Aug 1, 2008)

You must be touching the line is the way I look at it, even if you are pulling the line toward you. But if a the line is pulled towards an arrow it still counts as the higher score. 

Not to highjack the thread, but I was dealing with a situation like you are it was my arrow tho in question. I put a helical twist in my vanes to cause it to pull the line closer to my arrow. (Trick I learned from a good friend) I had my arrow just on the edge of a 12 this weekend, and the helical had twisted my arrow into the 12, but a guy untwisted the my arrow and it was out by maybe a 1/16". I still got a 10, but i was a little upset. I later found out the guy hates people that helical flech.

In other words, touching is touching no matter how it is done legally.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Saw it this weekend as well shot a shoot with all rineharts great target to shoot and pull from but I think they pull more than any other. A guy in my group had one the score keeper gave him that must have pulled a 1/4 inch or better, I didn't care as it didn't matter in his score as he wasn't shooting well enough to place and it was probably touching but after score was read he sure pulled it fast.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

This isn't hand grenades.... close does not count! If it isn't touching/cutting the line, you score it out! Where is a persons integrity if they accept a higher score than they actually shot? With integrity like that they should run as a politician for office. :angry:


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The actual measure of what is "close" is relative, what constitutes the "width" of meat is subjective and neither is found anywhere in the definition of touching.
> 
> ...


Personally, I want the score I earn. Nothing more, nothing less. I think the guys calling need to call slower and pull slower, It's up to the scorekeeper to say when to pull. Not the guy in a hurry to get the arrows/evidence out of the target.


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## Big Johnc (Sep 2, 2007)

Rule as it is now "MUST TOUCH" The line Not pull. If it pulls the line but not touch it's out. Untwist the arrow is a NO NO. Must score arrows before touching them. If you see no meat or can not tell just by looking at it the higher score is givin. 

I would like to see the rule changed to "Breaking The Line".

As it is now 1 & 2 would be lower 12s, 3 & 4 would be upper 12's

With the new rule "Breaking the line" 1 would be an 8 and 2 would be a 10, 3 & 4 would be upper 12's

just my 2cents


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> Personally, I want the score I earn. Nothing more, nothing less. I think the guys calling need to call slower and pull slower, It's up to the scorekeeper to say when to pull. Not the guy in a hurry to get the arrows/evidence out of the target.


I'm sure everyone wants the score they earn. I'm not calling anyone a liar. It's just that some folks will "believe" their arrow is touching the line if the group agrees it's touching the line. For too many folks an arrow doesn't have to literally touch the line but rather the group determines what an arrow scores. The groups determination of a score takes priority over the arrows actual location. Once the "group" determines the score of an arrow then the location of the arrow is mute and the archer honestly believes he "earned" the score since the group scored the arrow.

I know there are folks here on AT that picked up some or many points at IBO World's this past weekend.......... I will bet they don't think this is about their calls. They'd be real surprised to learn just how many people I know!!

For the record: *My posts are NOT aimed at anyone in my group!!*


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

*what is close enough*

On arrows that are close, we usually turn our binoculars around and look at shaft from about 1" or so and it is easy to see then if it is touching or not. Close is not good enough, touching is the criteria for the higher score. Most of the competitors I have shot with in our flighted and regulated shoots are really good about this. They deserve the higher score if it is in, but do not when it is out even though it is close..


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Big Johnc said:


> Rule as it is now "MUST TOUCH" The line Not pull. If it pulls the line but not touch it's out. Untwist the arrow is a NO NO. Must score arrows before touching them. If you see no meat or can not tell just by looking at it the higher score is givin.
> 
> I would like to see the rule changed to "Breaking The Line".
> 
> ...


Changing the rule to "breaking the line" wouldn't change the way many folks score arrows. "Reality" would continue to be what the group determines it to be. I think they believe everyone is using "close" as touching so they aren't cheating if everyone is expanding the strike zone. Rather you are "cheating" your group of points if you aren't expanding the "strike zone".


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## builditall (Mar 24, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> I heard the same things at different times this past weekend...........
> 
> How close does one have to look? It seems you are saying that you shouldn't look closely at whether an arrow is touching a line. A simple glance and if it's "close" then it's "touching"?
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that I don't look that close. What I am saying is that if you have to stand there and debate wether or not the arrow is touching the line then it's probably "close enough" to be the higher score. (Giving the benefit to the shooter.) However, if I can clearly see that there is foam/meat (wether it's 1/16 or 1/32) between the line and the shaft then it's the lower score. I don't believe in the "it's pulling the line" stuff For me to call it the higher score I have to believe that it's touching the line. Just ask those I shoot with.


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## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

My wife knows nothing about archery but sometimes she will get out and pull and score arrows for me.She thinks we call to slack.She says the arrow should be all the way inside the ring to recieve that score.Kinda she is right.I mean the lines should not be part of the score should they.They were put there to seperate different scoring areas.So going on what she thinks.Why not just say some part of the shaft has to be touching the inside of what area you are scoring.The 12 ring aint the 12 its the foam inside the ring.Some part of your shaft would have to be in that foam to get a 12.What do yall think of this.


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## Big Johnc (Sep 2, 2007)

What up t8ter long time no see... I like it.. like the pic i put up shaft inside the line....


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## meat58d (Apr 23, 2010)

builditall said:


> If I have to look at it that close the benefit and the higher score goes to the shooter. I like to see "meat" between the shaft and ring to call it out.


Look, I don't want any thing to do with "shafts". I ain't that kind of guy.

As far as scoring arrows goes. If it pulls the outside of the line over and the arrow itself is touching the line......score it! If it ain't touching the outside of the line it ain't in. Seems easy enough, but that is also why there are four people in a group usually and if they can't agree, you can always call an official. Besides, who cares, most of the people that are REALLY good, are not gonna be caught by a "jar licking" archer anyway..........

How many points did Levi win by?????
Just sayin


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

ILOVE3D said:


> On arrows that are close, we usually turn our binoculars around and look at shaft from about 1" or so and it is easy to see then if it is touching or not. Close is not good enough, touching is the criteria for the higher score. Most of the competitors I have shot with in our flighted and regulated shoots are really good about this. They deserve the higher score if it is in, but do not when it is out even though it is close..


Flipping the binos around is no longer allowed in the asa.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

*what is close enough*

The vast majority of shoots here in AZ are IBO so didn't know about not being able to flip bino's around. So, are you supposed to carry a maginfying glass to check if an arrow is in or out or are they not allowed either. Us older guys in the seniors catagory don't have the best of vision and sometimes need a little help.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

*what is close enough*

"All scoring shall be done with the naked eye without the aid of any special maginfication with the exception of perscription glasses or contacts" Straight from the ASA rules site. WOW, didn't know this. I wonder if you can use "readers" Thanks for the info. I plan on attending a few ASA shoots next year and don't want to get busted.


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## emesa (Oct 19, 2009)

ILOVE3D said:


> "All scoring shall be done with the naked eye without the aid of any special maginfication with the exception of perscription glasses or contacts" Straight from the ASA rules site. WOW, didn't know this. I wonder if you can use "readers" Thanks for the info. I plan on attending a few ASA shoots next year and don't want to get busted.


Getting busted would so not be fun. I downloaded the ASA rules myself, just gotta read up on them


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

I shot with a gentleman in AHC that had three shots the first day pulling the x quite a ways without actually touching the line, no one including him ever considered "giving" him an 11. Its touching or its not, its not rocket surgery


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

tackscall said:


> its not rocket surgery


I think you meant, "it's not Brain Science" :wink: & I agree!


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## Floridaboy (Dec 8, 2003)

They need to redesign the 3D target area from the outer edge of the 10 ring inward......since the target is formed from a liquid or jelly type consistency when it is molded this should not be too hard.

For the sake of explanation here goes......cut the ten ring out and replace it with another 10 ring which has an outer mushroomed edge 1/8 to 1/4 inch over lapping where the line WAS.......the 11 ring or the ASA 12 ring would be formed the same way........i.e.....there is NO LINE ANYMORE....there is slightly raised foam.....which could be molded or raised up covering where the line used to be. So unless you ACTUALLY touch or you arrow is inside the raised area.....you don't get the points......you have NO MORE LINES TO PULL....STRETCH....BEND OR TOUCH.....Take a silver dollar.....lay it on the table....put a dime in the lower right hand corner of the silver dollar............You either hit the DOLLAR or the DIME....there is NO LINE!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sounds like you should have gotten this "close enough" thing done and over with when it happened, not now, not at the next shoot. Now, though, you are left with the next time it happens.

That breaking the line probably won't work either. Someone will mash the line hard, not really breaking it, and someone will say "close enough."


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## bluejacket (Dec 19, 2003)

Just food for thought..... If the rule was reversed and an arrow touching any part of the lower scoreing area recieved the lower score, would you fight to recieve credit for an arrow pulling the lower area to your arrow, or for one a 1/16" away? If not, why would you do it as the rules currently read?


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

This can be a touchy topic for many. The general rule that I have always followed is that if I can't definitely call it out, then it is in. If you have to look at an arrow for more than a few seconds, it's probably too close to call out, so call it in and move on. Aside from wasting less time at the target, it makes for some friendlyness in your group. Trust me, if you are scrutinizing every close arrow call, it's a good way for your group to stop enjoying your company.

On a 3d Target, 1/16" is actually pretty easy to see right away. 1/8" is even more obvious. It's when you get smaller than that, the call becomes difficult. I figure if everyone in my group is using the same philosophy, I may give a point or two away, but that will also work in my favor.

We'er all out there to have a good time. Don't let something like fretting over an arrow call ruin it. When in doubt, give the point.

CG


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> Exactly how thick is "meat"?


its touching or not touching if its not touching thats meat between the line and shaft


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

we have a local july 4 team shoot, rules are must be inside the lines if any part is out you get the lower score, talk about some tough scores its very hard to pickup points and if all shoots was like this you would see scores tumble and people humbled!


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

like some one said earlier its either in or out. it either touches the line or it doesnt. if you cant call it out then its in. a 1/16th is not in. the group i shot in called them very tight and i think that sometimes we may have cost the guys a point or 2 imo. also i think Kent is just trying to stir up the air in here lol.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*You are exactly right !*



Floridaboy said:


> They need to redesign the 3D target area from the outer edge of the 10 ring inward......since the target is formed from a liquid or jelly type consistency when it is molded this should not be too hard.
> 
> For the sake of explanation here goes......cut the ten ring out and replace it with another 10 ring which has an outer mushroomed edge 1/8 to 1/4 inch over lapping where the line WAS.......the 11 ring or the ASA 12 ring would be formed the same way........i.e.....there is NO LINE ANYMORE....there is slightly raised foam.....which could be molded or raised up covering where the line used to be. So unless you ACTUALLY touch or you arrow is inside the raised area.....you don't get the points......you have NO MORE LINES TO PULL....STRETCH....BEND OR TOUCH.....Take a silver dollar.....lay it on the table....put a dime in the lower right hand corner of the silver dollar............You either hit the DOLLAR or the DIME....there is NO LINE!



Your idea is perfect I have always thought why in this day and age have not TOURNAMENT edition 3D targets with your idea or something similiar been designed to help eliminate the guess work! My lord everything else in competitive archery has evolved except the darn targets and here we are with the same debate that can be fixed with a little R&D and redesign! Wouldn't it be nice for some company to look forward and change the game for
the better!


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## bearauto11 (Apr 7, 2010)

Let me ask this, if you don't mind. Where we shoot (just fun shoots) sometimes there is a wire that indicates the kill zone. We score that it must be in the wire to count. Sometimes the arrow can be rubbing right on the wire and we'll count it as out because I figure, with the wire, it's either in or out. Should we be scoring it as in if the arrow is just touching the wire?
Thanks,
--Tom


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## JJudd (Jul 27, 2006)

baird794 said:


> there is no pulling the line u arrow has to be touching the outside line. foam will stretch but if u do not touch the line it's out no debate. if u want to call a better score just cause u pulled the outside line towards ur arrow tough u should make a better shot and u won't have to worry about it. just my 2 cents. it is what it is


Ya I really dont get the "pulling the line" thing. If it doesnt touch the line its out. I called and arrow out recently and was over ruled by the other members of my shooting crew as they felt the arrow was "pulling the line". What the H--- does that mean??? Touching or not touching period. Crazy how far people will go to get a couple of points. You missed deal with it!


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## JJudd (Jul 27, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The actual measure of what is "close" is relative, what constitutes the "width" of meat is subjective and neither is found anywhere in the definition of touching.
> 
> ...



I am with you totally. It amazes me how far away people call arrows from!! I am a tough and honest scorer, out is out! I have seen guys call from the stake!!! We have said "hey how can you tell", suddenly they go down and check things over. Thats the trouble with "gentlemen calling rules" its to bad we have to go too the extreme of a "score keeper". But then again I had a score keeper who let a guys "buddy" convince him an arrow was "pulling the line", not touching, in a shoot off!! Think I was pissed when I lost by 1 point.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

ky hammer said:


> like some one said earlier its either in or out. it either touches the line or it doesnt. if you cant call it out then its in. a 1/16th is not in. the group i shot in called them very tight and i think that sometimes we may have cost the guys a point or 2 imo. also i think Kent is just trying to stir up the air in here lol.


:wink: I may have stirred the pot once or 2000 times for giggles and grins.......but not this time. I may be kicking some turds but it needs to be scattered so it will go away.

:wink: If it had been my group I'm speaking of I'm sure YOU would have heard about it.



JJudd said:


> Ya I really dont get the "pulling the line" thing. If it doesnt touch the line its out. I called and arrow out recently and was over ruled by the other members of my shooting crew as they felt the arrow was "pulling the line". What the H--- does that mean??? Touching or not touching period. Crazy how far people will go to get a couple of points. You missed deal with it!


Exactly! Pulling the line has NOTHING to do with whether the shaft is touching a higher scoring ring. I think that is another way of saying that they are going to be "giving" points away to everyone. That is a real slippery slope. Is it a mini-mob mentality? I don't know but I suspect so.

One piece of advice I give folks is to NEVER let some one "give" you anything. It pisses me off when someone says, "I'll give you that". BS! Call it like you truly believe it is. I have no problem making a call and then suggesting the archer get another opinion. But I'm not "giving" crap and I won't let you "give" me anything because you'll be expecting some pay back. I say everyone should make the call to the very best of their ability and then move on. There is nothing wrong with looking closely at an arrow, in fact we should look closely if that's what it takes to make the correct call. 

The first few targets on the first day is the most nerve racking for me because that is when it will be determined how arrows are to be called for the tournament. I hope I'm never in a group of guys where the majority believe in "giving" points. It will get ugly..........

We should all "MAN UP" on the course and call it like it is!

Those of you that scored honestly and missed a shoot down this past weekend by 4 or 5 points may have been screwed.................


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## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

Here's how I look at it.

When you shoot an indoor shoot, you DON'T score arrows based on where the line is; you score arrows based on where the line WOULD be if the target were brand new. 

The same should apply to 3D target scoring. If the arrow isn't touching the line, it's out. Pure and simple. It doesn't matter if the arrows are "pulling" or "deforming" the line; if it isn't touching the line clearly, it's out.


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

I don't care how far it pulls the line... It's either *Touching* the line or it's *Not Touching* the line...

As Someone else stated "It's not Rocket Surgery"...

But 99% out is still 100% in...:wink:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Everyone seems to know the meaning of "touching" or at least everyone that has commented. 

Now how many of us will stand our ground, confront the scorer and possibly the group when on the first target he literally "gives" us a 10 rather than an 8? Your are neither calling arrows nor writing them down.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

*Push instead of pull...*



CherryJu1ce said:


> Here's how I look at it.
> 
> When you shoot an indoor shoot, you DON'T score arrows based on where the line is; you score arrows based on *where the line WOULD be* if the target were brand new.
> 
> The same should apply to 3D target scoring. If the arrow isn't touching the line, it's out. Pure and simple. It doesn't matter if the arrows are "pulling" or "deforming" the line; if it isn't touching the line clearly, it's out.


What is the correct thing to do when an arrow pushes the line??? Let's say the center of the 12 is ate up, a big hole: the arrow is shot in a position where it pushes the line away from the arrow toward the center of the hole, however, the arrow is actually a 12 if the line was where it WOULD be if the target was brand new. Do you still count this as a 12 since it would've been if the target was new, or do you score it lower since it didn't actually touch the line?

Personally, I think it should be the lower score since it doesn't touch the line. The "where the line would have been" leaves too much for interpretation.

Any thoughts on this one?

Juice, this question isn't pointed directly toward you, I've just always wondered about this situation.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

1. There is no such thing as "pulling a line"
2. Must touch the line
3. If it's 99.9% out it's 100% in.
4. Call everyshot consistent with that group, cause you can bet other groups are doing the same.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Kstigall,

Here is a question for you:

What if the line is normally 1/8 of an inch thick(inside of line to outside of line). The arrow hits close to the line. Upon further review, the outside of the line has been stretched until it is 3/8's of an inch thick and the arrow shaft appears to be right where the line has been pulled to. Would you call it the higher score or the lower score? 

With the older, more rigid foam, this wasn't much of an issue. Now, it happens all the time.


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## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

TMax27 said:


> What is the correct thing to do when an arrow pushes the line??? Let's say the center of the 12 is ate up, a big hole: the arrow is shot in a position where it pushes the line away from the arrow toward the center of the hole, however, the arrow is actually a 12 if the line was where it WOULD be if the target was brand new. Do you still count this as a 12 since it would've been if the target was new, or do you score it lower since it didn't actually touch the line?
> 
> Personally, I think it should be the lower score since it doesn't touch the line. The "where the line would have been" leaves too much for interpretation.
> 
> ...


You encounter this situation every so often while shooting indoor spots. Sometimes, the target will get shot up so much (if you're good enough to hit the same spot with relative consistency) that the line is sometimes non-existent. In that case, there really is some interpretation required. I envision where the 10-ring would be if it were still there, and make the call based on that vision. 

Similarly, on occasion, you'll see an arrow in a target that is clearly OUT of the 10-ring but the paper is torn or moved so the arrow is still touching it. The arrow is out. 

I like to score shots in 3D targets exactly the same way. It doesn't matter if the line is pulled or deflected...if the arrow is clearly outside the border of where the line would otherwise be, it's out.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

shootist said:


> Kstigall,
> 
> Here is a question for you:
> 
> ...



The first highlighted line makes me think the shaft is _not_ touching the line. I've never seen an arrow touching a line and also pull the line 3/8" to where it was touching. If I see that the shaft is touching the line then it is the higher score.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

CherryJu1ce said:


> You encounter this situation every so often while shooting indoor spots. Sometimes, the target will get shot up so much (if you're good enough to hit the same spot with relative consistency) that the line is sometimes non-existent. In that case, there really is some interpretation required. I envision where the 10-ring would be if it were still there, and make the call based on that vision.
> 
> Similarly, on occasion, you'll see an arrow in a target that is clearly OUT of the 10-ring but the paper is torn or moved so the arrow is still touching it. The arrow is out.
> 
> I like to score shots in 3D targets exactly the same way. It doesn't matter if the line is pulled or deflected...if the arrow is clearly outside the border of where the line would otherwise be, it's out.


I understand what you are saying on a paper target, but what is your take on a foam target when the arrow pushes the line in? The line is still there and visible, but its not where it "should" be. The arrow lands so that it is not touching the line but is where the line should be. Is it correct to take the higher or lower score?


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

TMax27 said:


> I understand what you are saying on a paper target, but what is your take on a foam target when the arrow pushes the line in? The line is still there and visible, but its not where it "should" be. The arrow lands so that it is not touching the line but is where the line should be. Is it correct to take the higher or lower score?


Higher score. Rules say if it touches the line, it gets the higher score. It doesn't say anything about interpreting whether or not it should touch the line. The trickier question is what if it is where the line should be, but since it is shot out, the line isn't there and therefore it doesn't technically touch the line?

Kstigall, in my example, I was saying the line was 3/8's of an inch from the inside to the outside when it is normally 1/8 of an inch. I was basically saying the arrow stretched it out 1/4 of an inch. 

Try this at home. Take an arrow and manually push it in to a target and watch how much that line moves. As the arrow moves inward, the line moves toward the arrow. Sometimes it moves enough to touch, sometimes it doesn't.


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## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

TMax27 said:


> I understand what you are saying on a paper target, but what is your take on a foam target when the arrow pushes the line in? The line is still there and visible, but its not where it "should" be. The arrow lands so that it is not touching the line but is where the line should be. Is it correct to take the higher or lower score?


I guess I don't understand the question...I've never seen an instance where an arrow actually pushes a line away from where it penetrates the target. Every time I've ever seen an arrow in a foam animal, it's always been pulling the surrounding foam towards the shaft.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

CherryJu1ce said:


> I guess I don't understand the question...I've never seen an instance where an arrow actually pushes a line away from where it penetrates the target. Every time I've ever seen an arrow in a foam animal, it's always been pulling the surrounding foam towards the shaft.


I think he is referring to when the target gets very shot up and entire chunks of the line get moved around to various places in the ten ring. It seems to happen on close ASA shots at the Pro Ams regularly.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

shootist said:


> Higher score. Rules say if it touches the line, it gets the higher score. It doesn't say anything about interpreting whether or not it should touch the line. The trickier question is what if it is where the line should be, but since it is shot out, the line isn't there and therefore it doesn't technically touch the line?
> 
> Kstigall, in my example, I was saying the line was 3/8's of an inch from the inside to the outside when it is normally 1/8 of an inch. I was basically saying the arrow stretched it out 1/4 of an inch.
> 
> Try this at home. Take an arrow and manually push it in to a target and watch how much that line moves. As the arrow moves inward, the line moves toward the arrow. Sometimes it moves enough to touch, sometimes it doesn't.


Tmax, I read your question wrong and then re asked the same question you had. Sorry.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

shootist said:


> Higher score. Rules say if it touches the line, it gets the higher score. It doesn't say anything about interpreting whether or not it should touch the line. The trickier question is what if it is where the line should be, but since it is shot out, the line isn't there and therefore it doesn't technically touch the line?
> 
> Kstigall, in my example, I was saying the line was 3/8's of an inch from the inside to the outside when it is normally 1/8 of an inch. I was basically saying the arrow stretched it out 1/4 of an inch.
> 
> Try this at home. Take an arrow and manually push it in to a target and watch how much that line moves. As the arrow moves inward, the line moves toward the arrow. Sometimes it moves enough to touch, sometimes it doesn't.


I know that lines can get pulled into the hole created by the arrow and I'm saying that if the line is physically touching the shaft the arrow is scored higher. IF the line gets pulled into the hole but does not literally _touch_ the shaft the arrow is scored lower.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

shootist said:


> The trickier question is what if it is where the line should be, but since it is shot out, the line isn't there and therefore it doesn't technically touch the line?


Yes, this was my question. I agree, if it doesn't touch, it doesn't touch, no interpretation needed.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

shootist said:


> The trickier question is what if it is where the line should be, but since it is shot out, the line isn't there and therefore it doesn't technically touch the line?


That is the tricky question. I think you, KStigall, and I are in agreement, that no matter where the line should be, if the arrow doesn't touch the line, it scored lower.



shootist said:


> I think he is referring to when the target gets very shot up and entire chunks of the line get moved around to various places in the ten ring. It seems to happen on close ASA shots at the Pro Ams regularly.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. It happens even more on the State level where targets tend to be more shot up than at the ProAm.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

shootist said:


> Higher score. Rules say if it touches the line, it gets the higher score. It doesn't say anything about interpreting whether or not it should touch the line. The trickier question is what if it is where the line should be, but since it is shot out, the line isn't there and therefore it doesn't technically touch the line?
> 
> Kstigall, in my example, I was saying the line was 3/8's of an inch from the inside to the outside when it is normally 1/8 of an inch. I was basically saying the arrow stretched it out 1/4 of an inch.
> 
> Try this at home. Take an arrow and manually push it in to a target and watch how much that line moves. As the arrow moves inward, the line moves toward the arrow. Sometimes it moves enough to touch, sometimes it doesn't.


I think we are asking variations of the same question...

If the arrow lands where the line should be, but the line was pushed in and is still visible, what is the correct way to score it? Personally, I am of the opinion, no matter where the line should be, if it doesn't touch, its out.

If the arrow lands where the line should be, but the target is so shot up there is not a line visible, what is the correct way to score it? This question has me a little more perplexed.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

One more question for my own clarity, Juice touched on it, but I'm trying to wrap my head around it...

If a target is shot up and a big (XXX, XKiller, 2764, etc.) arrow lands in the center of a 12 pushing the line clearly out from where its supposed to be, then the next arrow touches the line that is clearly out from where its supposed to be, how is that scored?


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## Big Joe Buck (Jul 4, 2009)

It's a 10! Hitting where the line is supposed to be does not meant squat! You either touch the line or you don't.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

TMax27 said:


> One more question for my own clarity, Juice touched on it, but I'm trying to wrap my head around it...
> 
> If a target is shot up and a big (XXX, XKiller, 2764, etc.) arrow lands in the center of a 12 pushing the line clearly out from where its supposed to be, then the next arrow touches the line that is clearly out from where its supposed to be, how is that scored?


Line is line no matter where it is on the target.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I do recall shooting a Baboon at short enough distance you could see the shaft was cutting into the center 12 (VBA) scoring. The next shooter shot his arrow down beside my arrow enough to hold it out of the twelve. My arrow was scored a ten. When my shooting competitor pulled his arrow, my arrow then eased back in to the higher scoring ring, but the score remained a 10 as it should be. 3D can be a lot like shooting pool. There are times your shot can help you while causing misery for your opponent. Contact with the scoring ring is the rule. Thats simple. People agreeing on what they see can be very complex/annoying.


Scoring formula:
RULES + SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION = :angry::dontknow: 

My question is why now Kent?? This issue you're talking about is as common as green grass. Many of the 3D participants don't take this competition as seriously as you or I. I hear this quote quite often. "IT MIGHT NOT BE A 10, BUT IT WOULD HAVE KILLED THAT DEER". 3D shooting and hunting having nothing to do with each other, but these are the same guys that will hit the aft position scoring rings on the Rinehart target and score those rings.
As frustrating as it is, I can't see it changing. We need to do our part and carefully weigh whether or not our objections for the side of truth would be heard. The old adage, "don't cast your pearl before the swine" can keep us out of some deep waste.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> I do recall shooting a Baboon at short enough distance you could see the shaft was cutting into the center 12 (VBA) scoring. The next shooter shot his arrow down beside my arrow enough to hold it out of the twelve. My arrow was scored a ten. When my shooting competitor pulled his arrow, my arrow then eased back in to the higher scoring ring, but the score remained a 10 as it should be. 3D can be a lot like shooting pool. There are times your shot can help you while causing misery for your opponent. Contact with the scoring ring is the rule. Thats simple. People agreeing on what they see can be very complex/annoying.
> 
> 
> Scoring formula:
> ...


I've pretty much explained why in previous posts in this thread...........
Because it's right after a big shoot when people are paying attention. There are those that have read this thread that may stand up in the future to questionable calls and there are those that may feel a bit of guilt and vow to do better in the future. Also, a friend and I were talking Friday afternoon and he felt very uncomfortable about the situation he had been put in and I'm pretty sure he was having second thoughts about his reaction. According to the rules HE did nothing wrong. But he should NEVER have been put in the situation. 

I've seen arrow callers have pressure really put on them by their peers to make very "friendly" calls. At the 2008 NFAA Indoor Nationals a known "name" tried to succinctly bully our arrow caller. I sat down beside the guy and told him to ignore the "name" (his reputation preceded him!). Make the call as he truly saw it without hesitation, we'd call a line judge if need be with no hard feelings and we were their to enjoy the competition and he shouldn't feel undo pressure. On a 3D course, when it's just 4 guys alone in front of the target, it's all too easy for someone or 3 to have a lapse in judgment for lack of a better description. Once you "receive" a gift it's about impossible to later oppose a similar type of call.

This is for all the folks that truly try, with absolutely no claim of being perfect, to do the right thing on the archery course. It's not about calling anyone out or dragging them through the mud. It's about supporting those that may need it in the future and it very well may be me!

If 2 archers see an arrow touching the line and 2 archers see the arrow is not touching the line then it's touching. The problem is when 3 archers or maybe one "name" archer sees an arrow that is VERY close to touching a line and the group scores it as touching.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

shootstraight said:


> 1. There is no such thing as "pulling a line"
> 2. Must touch the line
> 3. If it's 99.9% out it's 100% in.
> 4. Call everyshot consistent with that group, cause you can bet other groups are doing the same.


There certainly is such thing as "pulling a line". But, just because a line is pulled, doesn't mean the arrow is touching it. I have pulled lines many times, sometimes it was touching sometimes it was not.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I'm amazed that there is this much chatter about touching a line or not.....:wink::wink:


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> I've pretty much explained why in previous posts in this thread...........
> Because it's right after a big shoot when people are paying attention. There are those that have read this thread that may stand up in the future to questionable calls and there are those that may feel a bit of guilt and vow to do better in the future. Also, a friend and I were talking Friday afternoon and he felt very uncomfortable about the situation he had been put in and I'm pretty sure he was having second thoughts about his reaction. According to the rules HE did nothing wrong. But he should NEVER have been put in the situation.
> 
> I've seen arrow callers have pressure really put on them by their peers to make very "friendly" calls. At the 2008 NFAA Indoor Nationals a known "name" tried to succinctly bully our arrow caller. I sat down beside the guy and told him to ignore the "name" (his reputation preceded him!). Make the call as he truly saw it without hesitation, we'd call a line judge if need be with no hard feelings and we were their to enjoy the competition and he shouldn't feel undo pressure. On a 3D course, when it's just 4 guys alone in front of the target, it's all too easy for someone or 3 to have a lapse in judgment for lack of a better description. Once you "receive" a gift it's about impossible to later oppose a similar type of call.
> ...


Personally, The way for me to show I am serious about honest calls, is to call my own arrow the way it truly is. There have been several times I could have let the group give me the higher value but on examining the arrow I called it out, therefore they knew I was not about to give a gift or receive a gift when it came to scoring. 
How serious or not someone is about 3D should never compromise anyones integrity. I am in total agreement with your assessment of this problem, I just don't know if it will ever be like it should be.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> Personally, The way for me to show I am serious about honest calls, is to call my own arrow the way it truly is. There have been several times I could have let the group give me the higher value but on examining the arrow I called it out, therefore they knew I was not about to give a gift or receive a gift when it came to scoring.
> How serious or not someone is about 3D should never compromise anyones integrity. I am in total agreement with your assessment of this problem, I just don't know if it will ever be like it should be.


I know you and I are on the same page. I also know it will never be as it should be. But if we can increase the number of archers willing to stand their ground for correct calls then it's much more likely that a group will call arrows correctly. Thus reducing the incidents where folks can or will be pressured to make very friendly or unfriendly calls. Getting us closer to "where it should be".


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> I know you and I are on the same page. I also know it will never be as it should be. But if we can increase the number of archers willing to stand their ground for correct calls then it's much more likely that a group will call arrows correctly. Thus reducing the incidents where folks can or will be pressured to make very friendly or unfriendly calls. Getting us closer to "where it should be".


Help me with this one;
Last year in our home club indoor league, I was shooting a 5 spot round and on the second end my 4th arrow, I shot into the blue. When the scorer called the arrow he called it a five because the hole my arrow made clearly struck the white but had a left tear toward the blue in which the arrow was now outside of the white. This happened quite often on our home butts as they were the older Spiderweb type butts. I can tell the difference between a hole from the arrow and a tear from the arrow. How is something like that ruled?


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

dw'struth said:


> There certainly is such thing as "pulling a line". But, just because a line is pulled, doesn't mean the arrow is touching it. I have pulled lines many times, sometimes it was touching sometimes it was not.


He means that what we refer to "pulling the line" is not scored higher UNLESS the line is pulled far enough to be touching the arrow. Simply pulling the line means nothing, now pulling it to where it touches you arrow gives you the higher score.

We kinda go by the rule if you can't say that it's 100% out then you give the shooter the score.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

dw'struth said:


> There certainly is such thing as "pulling a line". But, just because a line is pulled, doesn't mean the arrow is touching it. I have pulled lines many times, sometimes it was touching sometimes it was not.


Ya, as Bob said I understand what pulling a line is. I should have clarified, some shooters feel that if the arrrow is "pulling the line" and not touching it that it should score the higher score. Just because a line distorts doesn't mean it's touching. 

A couple of weekends ago, a guy shot a target and looked at it and said to the others shooting. You guys better score that one, it's my arrow looks like it's pulling the line to me. The arrow was literally 1/4 from the line, imo, waaayyyy out. I actually laughed cause I thought he was joking, he was not. We called it out.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

mag41vance said:


> Help me with this one;
> Last year in our home club indoor league, I was shooting a 5 spot round and on the second end my 4th arrow, I shot into the blue. When the scorer called the arrow he called it a five because the hole my arrow made clearly struck the white but had a left tear toward the blue in which the arrow was now outside of the white. This happened quite often on our home butts as they were the older Spiderweb type butts. I can tell the difference between a hole from the arrow and a tear from the arrow. How is something like that ruled?


If your arrow was not touching the line, or the white, I would have called it a 4......

I have been at ASA shoots keeping score, my unofficial card of course. I have had some really close arrows where the 2 callers asked for the opinion of the other scorekeeper. I saved them time, I had already written down my 8.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

shootstraight said:


> Ya, as Bob said I understand what pulling a line is. I should have clarified, some shooters feel that if the arrrow is "pulling the line" and not touching it that it should score the higher score. Just because a line distorts doesn't mean it's touching.
> 
> A couple of weekends ago, a guy shot a target and looked at it and said to the others shooting. You guys better score that one, it's my arrow looks like it's pulling the line to me. The arrow was literally 1/4 from the line, imo, waaayyyy out. I actually laughed cause I thought he was joking, he was not. We called it out.


I had a guy at an ASA this year say, "hey man you might wanna look at my arrow again." I just said, "why, did it move?"


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## Floridaboy (Dec 8, 2003)

*This must be why it takes the PRO's so long to shoot....they are all down there arguing about line pulling......rolling....pushing.....it must be tough on that range...LOL*


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> Help me with this one;
> Last year in our home club indoor league, I was shooting a 5 spot round and on the second end my 4th arrow, I shot into the blue. When the scorer called the arrow he called it a five because the hole my arrow made clearly struck the white but had a left tear toward the blue in which the arrow was now outside of the white. This happened quite often on our home butts as they were the older Spiderweb type butts. I can tell the difference between a hole from the arrow and a tear from the arrow. How is something like that ruled?


It's a 4. If it hits in the blue and kicks over into the white then it's a 5. 

I use a cardboard backer on my target. It helps to reduce arrow kick.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> It's a 4. If it hits in the blue and kicks over into the white then it's a 5.
> 
> I use a cardboard backer on my target. It helps to reduce arrow kick.


Thats what I thought and stated , but was overruled by the majority and a second scorekeeper. Ended the evening with a 52x 300 and didn't feel good about it. The next week I shot a 42x clean 300 and felt good about that.


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## redfish (Jul 13, 2005)

Just change the rules to score inside-out and this dilemma will disappear. The scores will get lower and the shooters will get better. Plus no more "How would you score this arrow" debates on Archery Talk. :thumbs_up


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

redfish said:


> Just change the rules to score inside-out and this dilemma will disappear. The scores will get lower and the shooters will get better. Plus no more "How would you score this arrow" debates on Archery Talk. :thumbs_up


You're just transferring the debate to the inside of the line rather than the outside. Same subjectivity different spot. The problem is the subjectivity and people not seeing the same thing, which is why the guys calling the arrows, calls the score unless he or she asks for another opinion.


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## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

This is my take on the subject. Any part of the arrow has to touch any part of the line for the higher score to be given. If the arrow goes into the target and deforms the line enough by "PULLING" the line over to the arrow that is good enough. If the arrow pulls and stretches the line by a entire inch it doesn't matter as long as the line touches some part of the arrow. In other words If I can't see any foam between your arrow and the line then you get the point. 

If it is on the truely hairy edge (or a shot up target) and too close for me to call then the benefit of the doubt has to go to the shooter.


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