# Recurve Bow



## Soksoda (Apr 2, 2009)

Is that USA Archery bow set up at Lancaster Archery good bow to start learning to shoot? I shoot BHFS but thought I would try the recurve.


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

I would look at any riser / limb comination that is ilf fiiting that bow isnt ilf


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

When I started doing archery with my recurve, I picked up a PSE Optima, big mistake! Not because of the bow, but because eventually you'll have to upgrade to an ILF/HDS when you want to increase the poundage. I suggest picking up a Cartel Fantom riser and W&W Sebastian Flute Premium Carbon/Wood limbs. 

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/cartel-fantom-25-recurve-riser.html <- riser
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bow...s.html?manufacturer=3614&td_recurve_type=1479 <- limbs


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TwilightSea said:


> When I started doing archery with my recurve, I picked up a PSE Optima, big mistake! Not because of the bow, but because eventually you'll have to upgrade to an ILF/HDS when you want to increase the poundage. I suggest picking up a Cartel Fantom riser and W&W Sebastian Flute Premium Carbon/Wood limbs.
> 
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/cartel-fantom-25-recurve-riser.html <- riser
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bow...s.html?manufacturer=3614&td_recurve_type=1479 <- limbs


Very good advice.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Okay, just recently learned that "ILF" means (International Limb Fitting), now what is "HDS"?

And then over on another thread someone commented, "Dont forget the Hoyt Axis & Forumlar risers are not ILF", yet on the Hoyt website they say only use there Forumlar limbs with there risers, but yet they say they are ILF. If ILF is ILF, what gives???

Although not hard to do, I'm confused...8^)


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Very good advice.


I wish I followed it... was too excited getting into archery I didn't do enough research! lol, but at least I have experience now and nothing bad with having a back-up fun bow. 

Edit: HDS stands for "Hoyt Dovetail System", risers nowadays uses this type of limb system. Pretty much lets you use different limbs from different manufacturers with your riser. Ex. Samick riser with Cartel limbs, and so on. Hoyt formula riser/formula limbs uses a proprietary limb mechanic. IF I'm using the correct terms...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HDS is Hoyt's attempt at staking claim to the ILF system. Sure, it was developed by the Hoyt company way back when, but there was never an "official" name for it (or if there was, they weren't too worried about it then) and eventually became known as the International Limb Fitting (ILF) system. 

Oddly, and without much logic or explanation, Hoyt started calling it the "HDS" (hoyt dovetail system) a few years ago, to regain their "intellectual property." Even though the owner of the compnay at the time sold his company and his name and went out and started a new company and riser using a slightly different system (the SKY Conquest fitting).

It was very puzzling to a lot of us why they felt this was even necessary. What was even more puzzling was that soon after reclaiming (or renaming) their IP, they came out with a completely new design for their limb attachment system, the "paralever" system used on their Formula line of bows. 

So, right after trying to lay claim to the ILF system, they virtually admit that it's obsolete by releasing a totally new system. Weird.

So now in Olympic style recurve archery, there really are just two systems. The age-old, tried and true, universal ILF system, and the Hoyt Formula system. Hoyt has all but ensured with this move that if you want to use their superb risers, you must also use their limbs (there are two small companies who will build limbs to fit the Formula risers, but they aren't making all that many). I believe the folks at Hoyt 1) believe they designed a better system (listening to their chief recurve engineer Doug Denton - he makes a good argument) and 2) they just got sick and tired of seeing other company's limbs on their risers. Many elite level archers were shooting Samick, W&W, SKY and other brand limbs on Hoyt risers. I did this for years. And I'm sure it was a burr under their saddle.

So, there you go.

John


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

You guys at GREAT!!!

Guess I’ll have to go with the old ILF system at first…8^)

Been reading these ILF threads the past few days and thanx for all the info and assistance from all you good folks,,, yeah John this thing has gotten a hold of me and guess no better way to scratch this itch than to commit, and believe I’m going to take TwilightSea’s and your advice and order a Cartel Fantom 25” riser and medium length (68” total) limbs. At 52 years of age and depending on which side of the bed I get up I’m between 5’ 10 – 11” in height, and have a nature draw of around 28”. Anchored middle finger, side of mouth, I cut my traditional arrows at 28-1/2” and if I remember correctly back in my compound days of the late 70s through early 80s, I had a 30” compound draw and cut my arrows around 30-1/4”, so I believe the medium ILF 68” limbs is adequate for my draw length??? Haven’t yet ordered, if not I can go longer or shorter. Medium puts me in the middle so I should know for my next set of limbs if needing to go longer or shorter if still interested.

For poundage… Back in those compound days my bows let-off were around 40 – 50% if I remember correctly and I shot comfortably between 60 -65# holding somewhere between 32 – 34 pounds, again if I remember correctly. Am thinking about 30# ILF limbs which puts them at about the halfway point of poundage scale offered. Again, putting me in the middle to know for my next set of limbs. Don’t want to go overbowed at first in my old age, but then again, if this thing doesn’t interest me, at least want to have enough poundage to kill carp with it…8^)

If I’m gonna order might as well order a sight and plunger at the same time, which should at least get me on the range at first…. Any suggestions at reasonable prices? Don’t need top of the line stuff, but don’t want pieces of junk either.

Again, thanks for all youenz help and any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Gary Czatt
“Zbone”


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

If you don't mind waiting a bit longer than usual, Alternative Archery has the Cartel riser for like 15-30 bucks less. It's in Europe but they ship everywhere. http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/006016.22.217695784222750328. Ooh, if you don't mind a different set of limbs, they do have a combo deal where they will include Cartel Fantom Fiber Limbs. Can save a bit of cash that way if you're interested. There should be a side link on their risers page.

I'm personally planning to pick up a Samick Xenotech riser and Sebastien Flute Carbon/Foam limbs at 26#. I've been doing archery for roughly five-six months now and I feel like I'm ready for an upgrade. But it's going to set me back $700. Least I won't need a new riser after I upgrade, just gotta get new limbs every couple of months or so.

Edit: I suggest picking up a Shibuya DX plunger. Great plunger around, I have a Cartel X-pert sight but that's in the category of 'trash sights.' I'd hold off on getting a clicker for now since I heard that takes some dedication and training to use? I haven't used one yet since I don't feel like I'm ready for a clicker.


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## Footie's (Aug 5, 2012)

www.footiesstick-n-string.com


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanx TwilightSea...

Is the clicker part of the plunger, or separate?...Thanx


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

Nah, they're totally separate.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

TwilightSea said:


> If you don't mind waiting a bit longer than usual, Alternative Archery has the Cartel riser for like 15-30 bucks less. It's in Europe but they ship everywhere. http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/006016.22.217695784222750328. Ooh, if you don't mind a different set of limbs, they do have a combo deal where they will include Cartel Fantom Fiber Limbs. Can save a bit of cash that way if you're interested. There should be a side link on their risers page.
> 
> I'm personally planning to pick up a Samick Xenotech riser and Sebastien Flute Carbon/Foam limbs at 26#. I've been doing archery for roughly five-six months now and I feel like I'm ready for an upgrade. But it's going to set me back $700. Least I won't need a new riser after I upgrade, just gotta get new limbs every couple of months or so.
> 
> Edit: I suggest picking up a Shibuya DX plunger. Great plunger around, I have a Cartel X-pert sight but that's in the category of 'trash sights.' I'd hold off on getting a clicker for now since I heard that takes some dedication and training to use? I haven't used one yet since I don't feel like I'm ready for a clicker.



Archery for 5-6 months, you've never used a clicker and your going to give advice on what someone should buy? Classic ArcheryTalk.....


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

Soksoda said:


> Is that USA Archery bow set up at Lancaster Archery good bow to start learning to shoot? I shoot BHFS but thought I would try the recurve.


It's good if you just want to see if you like recurve, but not something to build on if you want to progress and compete. I'm just a back yard recreational shooter and it is more than enough bow to test my skill. If I had wanted to get really serious about this sport then I would have started with at least an Excel or Horizon riser and W&W SF fiberglass/wood limbs. I can't see spending the money on carbon limbs for your first set when you are just going to upgrade to heavier limbs in a few months.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Archery for 5-6 months, you've never used a clicker and your going to give advice on what someone should buy? Classic ArcheryTalk.....


Well, he's apparently a quick study, since that's pretty good advice.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Well, he's apparently a quick study, since that's pretty good advice.


I will humbly disagree...


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Hey John,

Any recommendations/suggestions for a reasonably priced T-Bar type sight, plunger, and possibly a clicker and guess I forgot to mention shooting rest?

Or are the rest and plunger the same piece of equipment in these type bows?

Thanx for any input.


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

I've studied up on this, I asked a coach that he would suggest his students have AT LEAST a years worth of experience before using a clicker and I read up on it on Jordan Sequillion's archery blog as well, not to mention various suggestions from more experience archers that training with a clicker takes serious dedication. I know when to take good advice and that's some good advice. 

http://jordansequillion.wordpress.com/2010/12/05/clicker-clicker-my-kingdom-for-a-clicker/


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I will humbly disagree...


with which recommendation do you disagree? 

Z- there is no such thing as a reasonably priced T-bar sight. You either pay good money for a good sight that will last you forever, or you buy a cheap sight that you will cuss and replace within 2 years. Only compromise I've found is some of the older used sights like the high-end Check-it's or the older Toxonics. They hold up well, but may frustrate you at times. Lowest end sight I'd recommend is the W&W sight, or the Shibuya dual-click.

Plunger - either spend the money for a Beiter, or just get a Shibuya DX. 

Rests? 100 to choose from. I like ARE's, but the Shubuya's are popular now and good. For plastic stick on rests, it's really tough to beat the Hoyt Super Rest.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I would counter that you could/should start with a clicker as soon as possible....certainly not a year in the waiting...

Never heard of Jordan, but I am sure he is a good person....I'll give her blog a read...

As to my disagreement, I just don't think that is enough time to have the experience to make a recommendation to someone....I'm in the same boat and can only recommend what I have tried on the recurve side, but don't since I haven't tried enough to really know what is good....I defer to those people like Limbwalker who have really been through it all...


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

John, I have a question with the super rest. I'm using the DX plunger, do I remove the 'hand' on the rest or keep it on? Jordan is a chick (and a cute one at that!)


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> with which recommendation do you disagree?
> 
> Z- there is no such thing as a reasonably priced T-bar sight. You either pay good money for a good sight that will last you forever, or you buy a cheap sight that you will cuss and replace within 2 years. Only compromise I've found is some of the older used sights like the high-end Check-it's or the older Toxonics. They hold up well, but may frustrate you at times. Lowest end sight I'd recommend is the W&W sight, or the Shibuya dual-click.
> 
> ...


Not the recommendation of the products, but whether it comes from experience to make them.....

And nothing against TwilightSea, we are all learning and those products are fine. I just choose to not recommend recurve equipment because I lack the years of experience needed to truly know....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A good recommendation is a good recommendation. If you don't disagree with the recommendation, then why bring it up? Many here could just as easily question your experience Scott to make recommendations or informed observations. That's all I'm saying. 

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

You step a bit too far, John....

I don't make recommendations about recurve shooting equipment purchases here....I've only mentioned what my students have chosen...but to take a leap to give a recommendation where one does not have a full breadth of experience can be just hurtful....

As to informed observations, anyone can make those and they don't cause others a dime. Take them for what you will...

And feel free to question any of my posts, just as I would question any of yours or any others. Asking those questions is how someone learns....


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Scott.Barrett said:


> and *those products are fine*.


...and we're done.

TwilightSea is upfront about their experience level, so we all know to double check the advice, but if the advice is good and you agree with it it seems kind of petty to say that TwilightSea must somehow be doing something wrong by passing along suggestions that you approve of. Besides, we've got John grading our homework... :tongue:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Scott.Barrett said:


> ...but to take a leap to give a recommendation where one does not have a full breadth of experience can be just hurtful....


It can be if the advice is wrong...but you can take your approach with TwilightSea and criticize them for passing along good advice that you actually aprove of, or you can do what John did and note that the advice is good and praise TwilightSea for being a quick study. Rather than cutting TwilightSea down, why not just keep an eye on the advice they give and see if you agree with it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You step a bit too far, John....


Please explain how. And even so, it wouldn't be the first time...

This is an open forum, and everyone here is free to offer their advice. Someone new to the sport who has had a good experience with a product can be a credible source. To assume someone is new to buying products because they are new to archery would be a mistake. Lots of folks who are new to this sport have a LOT of life experience, and are no fools when it comes to making informed decisions. Meanwhile, there are some who have years in this sport and are still lacking in the "life lessons" arena. It's up to the individual to sort out the information they get. 

Making fun of someone who is new to the forum and new to the sport really serves noone. Especially since they didn't represent themselves as some kind of authority. It was clear they were still learning themselves, so the reader would know to take the advice with a grain of salt and consider among other recommendations.

Since he's from Tampa, you may know him personally, and there's most likely more to the story here...

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Warbow said:


> It can be if the advice is wrong...but you can take your approach with TwilightSea and criticize them for passing along good advice that you actually aprove of, or you can do what John did and note that the advice is good and praise TwilightSea for being a quick study. Rather than cutting TwilightSea down, why not just keep an eye on the advice they give and see if you agree with it?


Please read everything before you post....

Nothing against him or his recommendation....just a general statement of how AT works and often fails, though it did not this time...

We are writing here in ink, for the search function to hold forever....and when someone even newer than me shows up, it makes finding out this information that much more difficult....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Again, my only concern is for what the next person using the search function is going to find....

One thing I wish this forum had is a LIKE/THANKS button....I would feel more comfortable when reading some advice, that it is generally accepted by the congregation...


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

I do not know Scott in real life and chances are of meeting up with him might slim to none. I'm just suggesting that the OP and any one else new to archery who wants to focus on recurve discipline to not the make the same mistake I did with getting a bolt-on take down bow. I admit I haven't used an ILF yet (and even I will admit I will need advice/lessons on setting it up!) but I can only make a suggestion on price range and quality of the product from the manufacturer (with various reviews from other sources.) If I could go back and pick up a Cartel Fantom ILF riser/limbs I would but I learn from my lessons. That advice alone doesn't require years of experience.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Yeah I too heed John’s suggestions or recommendations very much due to his experience,,, some of which I followed through his adventure to Athens over on a traditional message board.

As for experience, personally have been flinging arrows close to 50 years since a small child and even shot a little competition back in my compound years of the 70s and 80s but hung up the wheels in 1987 and have never looked back. Although I now shoot strictly instinctive but while compounding shot close to same style/form as todays Olympians along with sights, spring rests, stabilizers, etc, etc, so I know what most of these attachments are. Heck, back in those days, we called plungers, Berger buttons (named after the inventor)….8^) Anyhow, would just like to setup this new project with the essentials so I can fling a few arrows in the back yard and see how I like it. Have decided on the riser and limbs, now needing suggestions on decent attachments at reasonable price to get me started. I realize you’ll usually get what you pay for and supply and demand, and like quality hunting stickbows such as Widows, Morrisons, Robertsons, etc, etc, it depends upon personal tastes and preference much like Ford, Chevy, Chrysler. Am trying to get suggestions on quality equipment without going overboard.

As John suggested over on another thread, once started it may evolve. Heck, after I get all this stuff and find I don’t like it, I might make one of youenz a heck of a package deal…8^)


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Wow, hadn't read all the threads in between since last posted an hour or so ago.... Sorry if I started something.


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Hey ZBone.... where you from? You aren't a fellow "yinzer" are ya?


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Tuscarawas County, Ohio .....yeah, we say youenz...8^)

Don't tell me you're a Steelers fan...8^)


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Won't say "fan"..... in this area you have to be almost rabid to claim that title.... I'm about 7 miles from St Vincent.....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Zbone said:


> Wow, hadn't read all the threads in between since last posted an hour or so ago.... Sorry if I started something.


No worries Z. Unlike the "wall" - that's about as heated as you'll ever see it here. Fita recurvers tend to be pretty civilized folk. 

One thing to remember, the clicker will work your butt out like nothing you've ever tried before. It will make any recurve feel 20# heavier almost instantly. So keep that in mind when selecting draw weight.

John


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm from Westmoreland county originally and then lived in Latrobe for 3 years after college. That was over 40 years ago when the Steelers won their first 2 Super Bowls. Steelers practiced there then too.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Browns fan here....8^)

Thanx much guys, I have a good start.

Yeah, the Wall got pretty hairy at times...8^) Will let you know John when I receive an ILF bow and get attachments together. BTW, what clicker variety do you prefer?

Was looking at prices of some of the high end sights and other essentials, and WOW, sticker shock.... I can see this new project ain't gonna be cheap...8^) $400 for a dozen arrows, dang that is $33.33 per arrow without the fletching or points, and they make you buy a full dozen.

By the way speaking of arrows, what type of nocks and point system do they use for those Easton X10 arrows, and do you guys prefer the Spin-Wings or the Kurly Vanes and what length?

Okay, now I'm done with the questions...8^)

Thanx again folks,
Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Z - pretty well the only clicker anyone is using is the Beiter. Best steel on the planet (German). Unless you want or need a much longer arrow, then you'll want the extended Cavalier clicker that mounts on the sight extension. We use those for beginners that don't yet know what their draw length will be, or growing kids, etc.

Don't let the prices scare you. Start indoors. It's MUCH more affordable. Get some good Platinum Plus arrows and learn to keep them in the gold at 18M, then worry about outdoors. At this point, don't even worry about X10's or any other premium shaft. Cause you ain't that good...  Look at something like the CX Medallion XR's or the Easton Carbon Ones when you get ready to go outdoors. But like I said, just get ready for the indoor season and use aluminums for now. No sense buying even $100/doz. carbon arrows if you don't know whether you'll stick with it, and your form and draw length and draw weight are still evolving.

John


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Good solid advice John, thanx again for you help.

Any comments on whether Spin-Wings or Kurly and what points. Just plain ole screw-able field tips or those push in tungsten type tips? What grain points, what kind of weight am I trying to strive for with a 28-1/2" arrow. Do I look for a heavy shaft or a light shaft.

Sorry, thought I had all the questions out of me...8^)


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm currently using Goldtip Ultralight Entradas. Not the best but it's great for a budget. When I start doing competitive shooting, I'm thinking of trying out their standard Ultralight series and perhaps Ultralight pro.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

So I take it ya want to go as light as possible?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Z you won't have all the questions out of you for years man. It just goes with the turf. But that's what makes it fun. It's a whole new ballgame vs. trad.

If you get indoor arrows (aluminum) you'll want the glue in, one piece target points. Yes, some guys use the screw in points, but they will drag on the clicker and can throw you off. 

Again, for indoors, you'll want feathers. I use 4" but for smaller arrows, you can use 3".

If you want outdoor arrows, I'd look at the two I mentioned. And don't forget you CAN shoot aluminum with success outdoors too. Some world class scores were shot with aluminum arrows back in the 70's and 80's. Scores that would still be impressive today.

John


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

I know they will be over spined, (will see how well these plungers work...8^)), but I have a 3000 Carbonwoosd and a few 2018s I'll likely shoot before purchasing any kind of target arrows. They'll likely be my last purchase.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Gotcha... Again John thanx.

Yeah, if shooting is a half as fun as researching and talking about it, yeah, I'm gonna have a good time...8^)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Those 2018's will probably work for you indoors. However, if you drop in draw weight when you go to a clicker (and you will) they will be overspined for you. 

Zbone, as a 25+ year traditional archer and bowhunter, I can tell you that if you stick with this fita recurve thing, your world will soon expand - a LOT. 

John


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## Soksoda (Apr 2, 2009)

So back to my question, lol. I guess that bow isnt a good one if I plan to take it further. I like shooting compound, which I am planning to switch from BHFS to FS. I was thinking of learning to shoot the recurve for fun, until I get better at it. Its not quite as easy as picking a hoyt, pse, mathews etc. There is a lot I need to learn about the recurve. Next question is it bad for me to learn to shoot recurve and compete with compound? I read here that you need to jump all in.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No, it isn't bad. If anything, it could very well help your compound shooting by keeping you from collapsing and making sure you continue to pull through. A recurve will also reveal any alignment problems you might have because it will eventually fold you up like a cheap suit if you're not in good line.

John


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