# N.Y. Bow hunters assotiation try to ban youth season in N.Y.



## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

N.Y. bow hunters assotiation once again shows thier tru colors they worked to get bow season extented and they even teamed with the muzzloader assotiation to help gain a longer season with hopes of an early muzzloader season and they gained real support with alot of talk of a youth gun season 
then reality hit and they got one of thier biggest supporters to propose a law that would block the DEC from changing any rules that would include xbows , muzzloaders or a youth season that interfeared in any way with bow season WAY TO GO CHASE THE YOUTH AWAY


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

Allowing crossbow hunting during the regular and late archery seasons has always been opposed by a group of organized bowhunters known as New York Bowhunters Inc. How can a group of about 2,000 members block the use of the crossbow during any archery season? The answer comes from the 11th state Assembly District in Suffolk County and its assemblyman, Robert Sweeney.

Sweeney is the chair of the Environmental Conservation Committee and wields quite a bit of power over the state Department of Environmental Conservation. Sweeney is squarely opposed to the crossbow. He has introduced a new bill, A10583, that would block any proposed legislation giving the DEC the ability to develop rules and regulations pertaining to crossbow use in New York.

In part, Sweeney's A10583 says, "The Department of Environmental Conservation shall not permit, authorize, or enact regulations permitting or authorizing the use of firearms, crossbows, or muzzleloaders for big-game hunting before or during archery season. In addition, the only youth hunting days the Department of Environmental Conservation may authorize during special archery seasons are youth archery days."

Sweeney's bill also extends the current crossbow legislation that allows use of crossbows only during big-game rifle season through December of 2014. The only reason Sweeney allowed the current crossbow legislation to pass last year was to mitigate and control the use of the crossbow. He realized, as did the NY Bowhunters Inc., that it was becoming harder to justify the "no crossbow use at all" stance in the face of greater popular support for crossbow use statewide.

Sweeney and the NY Bowhunters Inc. have two goals: to keep the crossbow out of any archery season, and to not allow the DEC to establish a "youth-only" gun hunt during the archery season.

By imposing legislative restrictions on the DEC, Sweeney and his friends can still meet their objectives. In effect, they realize they can't stop the increasing popularity of crossbows, so the next best thing is to contain it.

There are two bills that need your support in order to allow the DEC to open the crossbow up to archery season use and allow for a special youth rifle hunt as well. The two bills are S6747a and A9682. You can read both bills at http://tinyurl.com/CrossBowA and http://tinyurl.com/CrossBowB. Contact your local state representatives and let them know you support these two bills.

David Dirks' outdoors column appears weekly. Contact him through his website at www.dirksoutdoors.com, or write P.O. Box 87, Westtown, NY 10998.
here is the story


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

for the record I don't want xbows during archery at all and I used to fight against it however I feel that hunters are under more and more preasure every year and we must stick together 
if we are going to keep our hunting rights and the youth are the only hope we have for the future. Though I still feel that bow and xbow should have sepperate seasons I would rather have xbows included in my bow season than no bow season at all. Fighting against any new hunting opertunity is just wrong. worse is the fact that the two sides can't find a COMPROMISE 
we will have a 7 week early season in 7 weeks you can't find 2 days for youth and you can't some shared time with xbows ?????????


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Make opening weekend for rifle youth only. :noidea:


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## NY911 (Dec 12, 2004)

NYB sucks!


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Make opening weekend for rifle youth only. :noidea:


opening week was youth season for my daughter as N.Y. has no current season.

N.Y. rifle is very small season already I wanted (if you are gonna have one) the weekend before but you know that was part of rut so omg can't give kids that 
when the bow week was extended two weeks longer to oct 1st columbus weekend was discussed and that was when most who sent comments to dec and when most clubs responded that was the weekend most wanted. So now you are talking about a weekend that previously was closed no season at all. so if no youth season then simple DEC should block the oct 1st opener and leave things the way they are now the oct 1 opener is approved but the rule has not yet been changed. The whole reason for the change was to incoperate a youth season


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

NYB is not opposed to a youth season, but a gun season does not belong in archery season. Make the youth weekend the opening weekend of gun season and go back to the Monday opener. Do you know the DEC response to that? We cannot make the gun hunters unhappy and do that. So why cannot the gun hunters support an opening weekend for youths? Where is the support for that and why are the gun hunters not pushing for this? Or is it only supported if the bowhunters have to sacrifice? 

Everyone wants all these changes at the expense of the archery season, but not once has the gun season been mentioned to support any of these changes, even when NY has one of the longest gun seasons in the nation. NYB is the easy fall guy for this, but shame on everyone of you that will not support a youth GUN hunt in the GUN season, but instead bash NYB for not accepting a gun season during the archery season, where it certainly does not belong.

And my how are memories are short. Bowhunters already gave up a weekend in Nov. prime time to move to a Sat. opener. Why? So kids do not need to skip school and and can hunt. Maybe some fathers should give up their time and just a kid hunting.


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

NYB is not opposed to a youth season, but a gun season does not belong in archery season. Make the youth weekend the opening weekend of gun season and go back to the Monday opener. Do you know the DEC response to that? We cannot make the gun hunters unhappy and do that. So why cannot the gun hunters support an opening weekend for youths? Where is the support for that and why are the gun hunters not pushing for this? Or is it only supported if the bowhunters have to sacrifice? 

Everyone wants all these changes at the expense of the archery season, but not once has the gun season been mentioned to support any of these changes, even when NY has one of the longest gun seasons in the nation. NYB is the easy fall guy for this, but shame on everyone of you that will not support a youth GUN hunt in the GUN season, but instead bash NYB for not accepting a gun season during the archery season, where it certainly does not belong.

And my how are memories are short. Bowhunters already gave up a weekend in Nov. prime time to move to a Sat. opener. Why? So kids do not need to skip school and and can hunt. Maybe some fathers should give up their time and just take a kid hunting.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

adkarcher said:


> NYB is not opposed to a youth season, but a gun season does not belong in archery season.


Didn't NYB a few years back attempt a compromise with the state muzzleloader Association and early mz season?
A deal that was quickly shot down by both the previously non informed NYB general membership and the 98% of the non NYB bowhunters in NY.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

adkarcher said:


> NYB is not opposed to a youth season, but a gun season does not belong in archery season. Make the youth weekend the opening weekend of gun season and go back to the Monday opener. Do you know the DEC response to that? We cannot make the gun hunters unhappy and do that. So why cannot the gun hunters support an opening weekend for youths? Where is the support for that and why are the gun hunters not pushing for this? Or is it only supported if the bowhunters have to sacrifice?
> 
> Everyone wants all these changes at the expense of the archery season, but not once has the gun season been mentioned to support any of these changes, even when NY has one of the longest gun seasons in the nation. NYB is the easy fall guy for this, but shame on everyone of you that will not support a youth GUN hunt in the GUN season, but instead bash NYB for not accepting a gun season during the archery season, where it certainly does not belong.
> 
> And my how are memories are short. Bowhunters already gave up a weekend in Nov. prime time to move to a Sat. opener. Why? So kids do not need to skip school and and can hunt. Maybe some fathers should give up their time and just take a kid hunting.


NYB at one time supported the "traditional ML" season for antlerless deer in the archery season. What business does a bowhunter org have co sponsoring a ML proposal.......none. 
A youth firearms deer season designed to recruit youth hunters is a farce. The same youths allready participate in a youth Turkey, Pheasant or waterfowl season. They can also hunt with archery tackle in the archery season under the mentored youth status.....so a parent/guardian must accompany them and give up their time......the same as in the proposed youth season.
There is no statistical evidence that a youth firearms season will help recruit more hunters. Mentored youth can also hunt in the early ML NZ season and the NZ firearms season if they so choose.
If they simply extend the season to the Oct 1 opener.....a holiday weekend would provide the opportunity for those youths and a parent to hunt together for those who do not wish to travel to hunt.
Under all of the proposed seasons......a parent/guardian is required.
As for Crossbows in archery......Rep Sweeney is simply trying to dodge that issue through the extension.


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## osageghost (Jun 16, 2005)

adkarcher, great post, i agree 100%, especially with your last paragraph !!!!


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

osageghost said:


> adkarcher, great post, i agree 100%, especially with your last paragraph !!!!


You agree with supporting a mz season in bow but not a youth weekend?


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

And yet no other group has come thru with any type of compromise since that proposal. Instead, slam the archery season with every hunting implement known to man that is not a bow so that all can enjoy the archery season without being a bowhunter. I gun hunt and will gladly give up that opening weekend for the kids. Lop off a week of the gun season and make a muzzleloader week, all for it. Today's muzzleloader is nothing but a single shot rifle anyhow.

However, this would never gain support because it does not come at the expense of the archery season and someone else has to give up something. 

We are very fortunate in NY to have the lengthy gun season we do have, many states have a 5 - 10 day gun season outside of the rut, which creates room for a lot of the other implements. But in NY, everyone wants the gun season to remain lengthy and take away from the archery season and expect the bowhunters to not balk at it.

You would certainly hear some squawking if the gun season were shorted to 7 days. I am by no means endorsing or even asking for this, but would gun hunters then be considered selfish, greedy, elitist and want the woods all to themselves? Or is that reserved for the bowhunters of this state?


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

adkarcher said:


> And yet no other group has come thru with any type of compromise since that proposal. Instead, slam the archery season with every hunting implement known to man that is not a bow so that all can enjoy the archery season without being a bowhunter. I gun hunt and will gladly give up that opening weekend for the kids. Lop off a week of the gun season and make a muzzleloader week, all for it. Today's muzzleloader is nothing but a single shot rifle anyhow.
> 
> However, this would never gain support because it does not come at the expense of the archery season and someone else has to give up something.
> 
> ...



adk.........there have been at least 5 other proposals sent to the DEC from both regional and county federations. Be careful how much you complain......when it comes to progress in tag allocations, archers have gained more tags since the inception of archery seasons than any other group.
Realistically, all hunters should have equal opportunity to kill the same amount of deer without regard for weapons type. (Zone specific) It is the most FAIR way to do it. I.E.- you get one buck tag and draw your antlerless permits........you then go out and fill them with the weapon of your choice. It is fair to archers, muzzleloading hunters, and gun hunters . The premise that we buy a TAG/DEER as has been the case for far too long, we further the cause by buying more days afield. That way.....if you CHOOSE to kill a buck with archery tackle.......it does not give you an avantage in killing multiple bucks per year that a gun hunter does not have.
The real issues here are a firearms season for deer concurrent with Archery season (which gives a minority an extra opportunity to kill, not just hunt)....I agree that this is a poor idea on many counts.
I personally see no benefit in giving my 12 year old son any special opportunity to kill a deer with any implement that he can kill with a bow or wait until a gun season opens like everyone else. It teaches him nothing, regardless of the season......I have to be right there (I would be anyway) regardless of weapon type.
The second issue is full inclusion of crossbows in the Archery Season.....another proposal which would give greater OPPORTUNITY for everyone to share the same experiences on a more even playing field in regards to days afield.
NYB has been nothing but a divisive organization. It pits one hunter vs another in an effort to appease the notion that "they" are the only true voice for bowhunters. Bowhunters are hunters first......but they started as a group that simply wanted an OPPORTUNITY to pursue the HUNT with their choice of implement. NYB has evolved into a voice for people who simply want their "own" season (and some would even fragment that). They want to create the perception that all bowhunters are archery elitists who believe that they are more deserving of their season, their rules, their added tags, and their equipment. NYB simply has used their influence in a manner that I do not agree with, not to mention misleading their membership and other sportsmans organizations, the DEC, and the County Federations through fact manipulation (or omission) and lack of transparency. 
Seasons and implements should be allocated from a biological validity viewpoint, to sustain the greatest amount of opportunity for a HUNTER to choose......not the philosophical or theoretical viewpoints of a vocal minority.....and especially not from the political relationships (I am speaking directly about their influence of Rep Sweeney) and motives of that same minority.

Please explain your position in regards to EXACTLY how the season lengths should be set based upon implement type.......it makes NO sense. If it did......why do you not rail on about the lack of uniformity in season length between NZ and SZ with regards to implement type. NZ archers are seeing a GAIN in days.....yet a shorter overall season than their SZ counterparts......why????? According to NYB....a NZ bowhunter CERTAINLY needs more days afield due to their CHOICE and the lower chance of success.
Also, explain why you (and NYB) feel singled out in your assertion that "you" are the only ones who ever lose......it is GUN hunters who see decreased DMP's....we still get our "free" antlerless as archers.....we get an "extra" buck and an early season not afforded any other implement.
I am a bowhunter....by choice.....and almost exclusively......but it is not "my" season.....my presence affects the opportunity of others.....their presence affects my opportunity. I believe in the sanctity of implement specific seasons. I do not agree with any firearms in the archery season. I do not believe we need a Youth Firearms deer hunt. I believe that Crossbows for those who chose them should be an option , mostly because in the name of recruitment we will implement a Youth season......but we will not reach out to our own ranks and RETAIN or CONVERT another hunter by INCLUDING them in "our" season.
NYB complicates far too many issues in an effort to perpetuate their own personal agendas......and not those of the majority I speak to.


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## pseshooter84 (Jun 9, 2012)

Crossbows during archery is complete bs! Man up and use a real bow, unless u want to cheat, u should just hunt with a gun or at night with a spotlight. If u want to use a crossbow during gun or the late season then have at it! Unless your a crippled war vet or just really old you should not be allowed to use a crossbow in this state until gun season!!! Im quite sure most real bow hunters agree with me on this. As far as a kids season goes (which I do have) they should have those last 4 days in September when the weather is still nice enough to keep them comfortable and actually get them into the sport. Let's think realistic and logical people


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

pseshooter..........how come crossbows are OK during late ARCHERY season......but not in the regular ARCHERY season ????????
Have you ever hunted (or even shot , carried afield, or for a 3D round) with a crossbow?
How does having the last 4 days of Sept a guarantee of good weather? Are you proposing this as a firearm season????? Are you making the inference that no youth will begin to hunt unless given their own season? Seeing as you believe that our youth need an advantage.....will they get to "cheat" and use crossbows????? Or just guns before archery?
Oh....and please define "crippled war vet" and "really old".......
By the way......I am a "Real bowhunter"......and I do not agree.


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## osageghost (Jun 16, 2005)

SteveB said:


> You agree with supporting a mz season in bow but not a youth weekend?


I don't see anywhere in the post I was referring to as to supporting a mz season in bow, and no I don't support any firearms in the bow season, and as far as an early youth gun season before or during bow season, no I don't support that either.
If there is an early youth gun season then let it be the weekend before the traditional opening Monday.


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## NY911 (Dec 12, 2004)

pseshooter84 said:


> Crossbows during archery is complete bs! Man up and use a real bow, unless u want to cheat, u should just hunt with a gun or at night with a spotlight. If u want to use a crossbow during gun or the late season then have at it! Unless your a crippled war vet or just really old you should not be allowed to use a crossbow in this state until gun season!!! Im quite sure most real bow hunters agree with me on this. As far as a kids season goes (which I do have) they should have those last 4 days in September when the weather is still nice enough to keep them comfortable and actually get them into the sport. Let's think realistic and logical people


Narrow minded opinions like yours and the NYB will be the downfall of hunting. 

I am as REAL as a bowhunter as you can get...I have NO offseason...I live, eat, breathe, and sleep bowhunting and archery...and i VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU AND THE NYB.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

osageghost said:


> I don't see anywhere in the post I was referring to as to supporting a mz season in bow, and no I don't support any firearms in the bow season, and as far as an early youth gun season before or during bow season, no I don't support that either.
> If there is an early youth gun season then let it be the weekend before the traditional opening Monday.


The weekend before the traditional opening Monday IS bow season.


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

Always lookin - I am personally ok with the seasons as they are and not looking to change anything, but most every year the archery season has a proposal to slice and dice it so accommodate other weapons and seasons. Why the archery season? I just think that if these same proposals were made and the gun season was going to be sliced and diced, all hell would break loose.

I agree with you, youth hunt is not necessary. Just take a kid hunting. I do not feel this weekend will all of a sudden make a kid a hunter for life.

Disagree on the crossbow, no sense in fighting that battle again, we can agree to disagree.

When I state bowhunters lose, I am simply referring to a loss of days. If and until the NZ changes might go in this year, days of season have not been lost by any other group except archers.

I use all 3 implements myself, bow, MZ and rifle and enjoy all seasons. I am ok as is and will use the appropriate weapon in the appropriate season and use the bow during gun season as well. I just do not understand why the archery season is attacked every year. The season is there for anyone that wants to get a bow and bowhunt, just keep the guns out of it.

I am actually moving to NC next week, so I wish all of you here in NY success and a safe hunting season. I am sure NC has its own issues, but I certainly will not miss this piece of it.

Adkarcher


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Good luck with the move Martin.
Headed to Fl myself in the fall.


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## NY_bowhunter (Aug 8, 2010)

Well ... I'm alittle afraid to post on this thread as my screen name is close to the NYB you all complain about. I'm not a member of them and I don't even know who they are. So, with that said, I have a problem with any guns being used during archery season ... even for "youth days" or whatever and here's why. I know DAMN well that DAD will be out with little Johnny's tag hunting BY HIMSELF!! How do I know?? I've heard guys at the gun club talking about this and it made me sick!!! So .. that's put a bad taste in my mouth on that subject. 

Crossbows in archery season ... This is a really grey area. 


*Can a mod please change my stupid screen name?? PLEASE??? * LOL

Adkarcher .... you will love it there!!! Gotta love gun friendly and hunting friendly states!! Good luck and be safe.


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## gjs4 (Jan 10, 2006)

Do you really think a youth season will recruit more hunters? Thats why we have a saturday opener. Want more youth hunting? Lower the age or starting working with our society.

This comes from a proud father of two young children to which i both bought lifetime licenses....... 

It seesm there is a generation who like to push for these seasons.....and it is one that has had it their way longer than Burger King...

Sheep....


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

Steve,

Good luck in Florida as well, hope it is a good move.

Martin


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## sdecgreen (Mar 12, 2009)

pseshooter84 said:


> Crossbows during archery is complete bs! Man up and use a real bow, unless u want to cheat, u should just hunt with a gun or at night with a spotlight. If u want to use a crossbow during gun or the late season then have at it! Unless your a crippled war vet or just really old you should not be allowed to use a crossbow in this state until gun season!!! Im quite sure most real bow hunters agree with me on this. As far as a kids season goes (which I do have) they should have those last 4 days in September when the weather is still nice enough to keep them comfortable and actually get them into the sport. Let's think realistic and logical people



Well I guess my 76 year old father qualifies for "really old" and would love to get back in the game, a crossbow would allow this. As far as a "crippled war vet" come on what kind of comment is this...our wounded vets deserve more than this, but by NY state law the only way to get a crossbow permit is to be basically paralyzed, only able to use a breath controlled release device...what a bunch of BS. There are many elderly and handicapped hunters out there that would join the ranks if crossbows were allowed during archery seasons as they are in SO MANY OTHER STATES IN THIS GREAT COUNTRY...it's called freedom of choice.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

The only thing i disagreed with in the proposed youth season was it would be practically in the middle of archery season. i think if they want a youth season they need to choose a different week to gain support from all hunters. IMO they would be a good transition from archery to regular season. end archery season one week early and give it to the youth a keep the archery start date on Oct. 1st. then it would turn into regular season. just my opinion.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

pseshooter84 said:


> Crossbows during archery is complete bs! Man up and use a real bow, unless u want to cheat, u should just hunt with a gun or at night with a spotlight. If u want to use a crossbow during gun or the late season then have at it! Unless your a crippled war vet or just really old you should not be allowed to use a crossbow in this state until gun season!!! Im quite sure most real bow hunters agree with me on this. As far as a kids season goes (which I do have) they should have those last 4 days in September when the weather is still nice enough to keep them comfortable and actually get them into the sport. Let's think realistic and logical people


how about a 56 year old man that has a failing arm from an injury at work. he has the strength to pull the bow back but the injury has caused pain in his arm when he draws. I think it would be a benefit to the season, there is not any harm in adding crossbows because they do not take away from other hunters plus many hunters like you and I that prefer to shoot the regular bow people should have a choice, so they can hunt year round.


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

crossbows are legal now, we all have a choice as to what weapon we use.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

adkarcher said:


> crossbows are legal now, we all have a choice as to what weapon we use.


They are legal to hunt during the archery season? As far as i know they can only be used during the regular gun season as of right now. So why use a cross bow when u can use a gun, unless the recoil of a gun makes it hard for the person to hunt its pointless for regular season.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Cross Bow in Westchester will be a disaster!


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## NY911 (Dec 12, 2004)

redman said:


> Cross Bow in Westchester will be a disaster!


LOL..now THAT I can agree with!

"Hey! Tony! Ova heeyah...I see a deeyah....Shoot it!"


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## adkarcher (Dec 15, 2005)

They are not legal to use during archery season, but are doing the gun season. So the choice is there. There have apparently been thousands and thousands of people just dying to use the crossbow as an implement, I assume for the challenge that it has over a gun. That might be why one would use it during the gun season.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Do you really think a youth season will recruit more hunters? Thats why we have a saturday opener.


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