# NEW Hoyt Formula RX riser and Limbs



## ewan

I'm going to reserve judgement for quite a while until the longevity of the limbs has been verified.


----------



## R&B

*New Hoyt Rec.*

I shot the RX last week and loved it. Very very nice setup (F3 limbs).

I may have to shoot one this year full time. I have a GMX that I only use for field rounds. Most of the time I shoot Win & Win stuff. 


-R&B


----------



## ScarletArrows

can you give us an idea of the measurements on the riser...length of sight window, overall lenght, length of each limb, length from hardlock mount to limb bolt. Speed w/ what arrow weight.


----------



## Vittorio

No first hand top level infos about new bow from Italian top shooters. Marco Galiazzo has not recieved it yet, it seems because there are no limbs available to his poundage, Natalia Valeeva also hasn't seen it, and no other member of the national team has got it, yet. This is not uncommon for Hoyt, as usually new products are first available to the shops and later only to pro staff shooters, so we have to wait a little longer to see how it performs at top level.


----------



## limbwalker

Glad to hear the good reviews. 

Just remember, all new equipment works better for the first few weeks...  Kinda like putters in golf 

Wish they hadn't blown it on the backweight bushing. Still can't understand that move.

There are indeed a lot of great risers and limbs available today. Just 6 years ago, there wasn't much difference between any of the manufacturers. Then W&W really ramped up their R&D and offered some truly innovative gear. Others have followed, and we all benefit from the competition. 

Let the best bow win, I say!

John.


----------



## TomB

limbwalker said:


> Glad to hear the good reviews.
> 
> Just remember, all new equipment works better for the first few weeks...  Kinda like putters in golf
> 
> Wish they hadn't blown it on the backweight bushing. Still can't understand that move.
> 
> There are indeed a lot of great risers and limbs available today. Just 6 years ago, there wasn't much difference between any of the manufacturers. Then W&W really ramped up their R&D and offered some truly innovative gear. Others have followed, and we all benefit from the competition.
> 
> Let the best bow win, I say!
> 
> John.


Wow! John are you actually saying that competition benefits the consumer? What a novel concept.:smile: I wonder where else this could be applied?


----------



## bis

Vittorio said:


> No first hand top level infos about new bow from Italian top shooters. Marco Galiazzo has not recieved it yet, it seems because there are no limbs available to his poundage, Natalia Valeeva also hasn't seen it, and no other member of the national team has got it, yet. This is not uncommon for Hoyt, as usually new products are first available to the shops and later only to pro staff shooters, so we have to wait a little longer to see how it performs at top level.


I've been told that Jessica Tomasi is using the new formula Rx.


----------



## st8arrow

Fred,

Did you shoot a 25", or 27" riser? If it was the 25" do you see a concern withj the sight window? I'm trying to decide which to order.

Thanks


----------



## whiz-Oz

The 27" Formula sight window is almost identical to the one on my 25" Axis. 

Haven't got a photo of it yet sorry.


----------



## R&B

*Specs*



ScarletArrows said:


> can you give us an idea of the measurements on the riser...length of sight window, overall lenght, length of each limb, length from hardlock mount to limb bolt. Speed w/ what arrow weight.


I never measure such things :dontknow:

I think it's big enough no need to measure. It's not the size its how you use it right? I could be wrong and they've been lying to me all these years. Maybe I should start measuring. :smile:

I think the best thing about the new design is *it goes to 11!!!*:smile:

-R&B


----------



## ScarletArrows

R&B I am just trying to get some data points for comparision vs. current ILF designs. Trying to find out how much Hoyt designers actually changed the riser and limbs.


----------



## Shinigami3

There's been a great thread running on archery-forum from "Andy"/"whiz" with really good photos and information. It seems he's doing it in installments.


----------



## Borderbows

ScarletArrows said:


> R&B I am just trying to get some data points for comparision vs. current ILF designs. Trying to find out how much Hoyt designers actually changed the riser and limbs.


It cant be that hard to do a DFC against an Inno...
i agree even a DFC against a 990TX. 

I have one question not even insiders like Shinigami3 want to answer for some reason... Whats the working limb length of a Medium RX limb and the Medium ILF?
Thats by the definition, of, Nock shoulders, round the belly of the limb to the start of the fadeout? Best example would be the 990TX to the F4 limb.
because Limb Fadeout to Limb fadeout is the real length of the riser when "standard" limbs cannot be used and not the bolt locations.

The way to do a DFC is to take the mid point of the Manufacurers brace height, and record the draw weight at every inch of draw out to the recomended max design...
Its not that hard...


----------



## whiz-Oz

Here we have the Force Draw Curves for the 27" Riser with short limbs on it. 
The limb bolts are wound out to the maximum. 6 full turns after bottoming them out..


----------



## John K

Thanks for posting that Whiz. Interestingly it seems to show a slight stack from about 23in draw onwards, or should the bracing height be factored in?


----------



## whiz-Oz

Not too sure about that. It was the third one that I did. It matched the second and had six more data points.
I have also converted from 0,0 and mm/kg to inches/lbs and moved the origin out to the brace height. 
My 66" Samick Universal glass limbs are stacky. I intend to put them on later once I've replaced my plank setup. It's too short to do much more than 29 inches as the scale gets drawn up into the tie down strap ratchet.


----------



## limbwalker

Hey, what gives? That DFC doesn't even get me to my pre-draw...  LOL!

Seriously, it looks pretty good at the clicker, assuming you draw 29"...

John.


----------



## Borderbows

Whiz, Nice work.

A funky graph that shows you the smoothness 100%... 

Is to work out the lbs increase per inch of draw ( take the 10" away from the 11" weights, and so on) Then plot these.

You will spot that the graph drops down to the easiest part of the draw. which is about 1.6lbs per inch or so for a 38lbs bow. and then starts to climb again.
You will see which bow is smoother as the 1.6lbs part of that draw is closer to your required draw length.

http://www.borderbows.com/Downloads/Hex5MK11DFC.pdf

You will see that the winex is smoother than the G3 by about 2" of draw with 22" opposed to 20" and the hex5 is just shy of 28" 


The G3 is in Pink
Winex in Yellow
Hex5 in black.



If i remember correctly these were 68" bows.

If you want to look at smoothness, then this is a better way IMHO.
if your looking at stored energy then the DFC would be better.

With this kinda graph, the cumulative lbs on the fingers on the hex5 equates to less holding weight for a set amount of stored energy.

Hope this shows some light on recurve design and smoothness of draw and ease though the clicker.


----------



## TheAncientOne

> Wish they hadn't blown it on the backweight bushing. Still can't understand that move.


Looking at the picture, it seems that this area will be prone to failure. It looks like a significant amount of material was removed to accommodate the bushing.

TAO


----------



## whiz-Oz

TheAncientOne said:


> Looking at the picture, it seems that this area will be prone to failure. It looks like a significant amount of material was removed to accommodate the bushing.
> 
> TAO


Can you refer to the exact thing of which you speak? 

How can there be material removed to accomodate a bushing which isn't there?


----------



## whiz-Oz

*Is a formula good bait in an archer trap?*

I took a Formula RX to our archery club and used it for bait. 

Will archers brave the possibility of getting caught in this fiendish trap in order to have a look at it?


----------



## limbwalker

> Will archers brave the possibility of getting caught in this fiendish trap


Freud is alive and well I see 

John.


----------



## cc46

clever!

hey that looks kinda cool


----------



## whiz-Oz

Is an Orange Formula RX good bait for an archer trap?

Here is simulated Archervision approximating the focus point when approaching a new piece of equipment. 
Note what is important and what is unimportant. 
Rope in a noose, being relatively ignored. 

But how does this feature in real life?










As it will appeal mostly to the Recurve Archer, this trap was set and baited early on a Sunday morning, in the vicinity of the door to the Canberra Archery Club, sight of the Famous Australia Day Tournament. 

Some may consider setting a baited trap so close to the Natural Environment of the Archer and also alongside a natural path to be unethical. 

Well, nobody complains that speed cameras are unethical being set up next to roads. Strangely, they also seem to be where the straightest and best quality roads are. I guess that it's just coincidental. 

Anyway, it didn't take long before the Formula RX proved successful.

Owen, one of Australia's regular top ten recurvers took the bait and stepped into the potential for captivity. 










He gave it a close look....










When asked why he took the risk, he said something along the lines of "Even if I'm hanging upside down by one leg, I'll still be checking this bow out!"

Adrian, who shoots recurve and compound seemed to be attracted past the point of potential capture..



















Resistance is useless!










But would a dedicated compound shooter be tempted into the trap?

Note the slightly different approach. 

Brendan checks FIRST to see how the trap is actuated. Finding just a pile of rope, he then knows that he can safely take the bait..




























Smaller children were somewhat wary of peril. 











It appears that archers of most persuasions were tempted by Formula RX bait. 

However, it is possible that it was the colour. I have no other so this can't be scientifically proven. 

No Archers were harmed in the carrying out of this experiment, however some of their bank balances felt threatened.


----------



## rasyad

Very Funny, thanks.....Rasyad


----------



## limbwalker

> tempted by Formula RX bait


 :zip:

I'm being good... 

Funny stuff Whiz. 

John.


----------



## Tsengfansen

About how much is this Hoyt formula RX?
and i was wondering... the limbs are only suspended by the bolt and the sort of wierd looking hook-like-thingy, would the "hook" bend backwards after a while?
sorry if i didnt use the right terms, im still new and am looking for bows.
btw can someone explain how the inches of the riser and the limbs work, and how you find the correct length for yourself?
is it all about the feel?
DESPERATE IN NEEDING HELP FROM EXPERIENCED ARCHERS
THANKS!!!


----------



## whiz-Oz

Tsengfansen said:


> About how much is this Hoyt formula RX?


Depends on how much the archery shop that you buy it from wants to charge for it, really. 



Tsengfansen said:


> and i was wondering... the limbs are only suspended by the bolt and the sort of wierd looking hook-like-thingy, would the "hook" bend backwards after a while?


The limbs are "suspended" with the same type of mechanism as any other modern bow. This particular system has almost half the stresses as the attachment points are over twice the distance away from each other, with only a slightly longer moment arm.

No. The Hook like thingy won't break or straighten.




Tsengfansen said:


> sorry if i didnt use the right terms, im still new and am looking for bows.
> btw can someone explain how the inches of the riser and the limbs work, and how you find the correct length for yourself?


You find the correct length for yourself based on your draw length. There are many references to it on the Internet and google will be your friend. 




Tsengfansen said:


> is it all about the feel?


It's never ALL about the feel.


----------



## sundevilarchery

Had my hands on one this weekend in Utah... unbelievably QUIET! There was just this smooth... THWUSH when shot.


----------



## tjk009

*Quiet and quieter.....*

Shot on the same target with Ed Eliason who had the new PSE riser (very nice looking in person) and Doug Denton with the new Hoyt with carbon wood limbs at the Utah Open. While Doug's bow was quiet Ed's bow barely made a sound. It was an interesting side by side comparison for the afternoon.


----------



## whiz-Oz

I have conducted some durability testing with the Formula RX with F4 limbs. 

You guys must have seen Pelican Cases and know how tough they are.

Have you ever read the guarantee though?

They have a lifetime replacement guarantee except when bear or shark attack, or children under five are involved. 

No Bears in Australia. The sharks are quite a few hours drive from where I am. 

So I figured a child under five should be easy to find. 

I located one who is just over two. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3byTJLCWWJg


----------



## rasyad

All good shots, I think the boy has talent!!!

Rasyad


----------



## whiz-Oz

*Computer simulation for competition performance..*

Surely given the technology available today, we should be able to easily simulate how a given device will perform under computer simulation? 
Maybe it should be possible to do some virtual reality work in order to ascertain some potential performance parameters?

Well, you may not know it, but there are some fairly hefty computer powerhouses around in the Capital city of Australia.. There are supercomputers here owned by Defence and Technical centers. There are clusters and serious computer iron if you know where to look. 

As it happens, I have some friends who are highly experienced in motion tracking technology, visual feedback and performance testing. It would be most appropriate to turn the Formula RX and my Axis as a comparative example over to them and see what they think. 

My experts carefully attached three dimensional motion sensing devices and triggering mechanisms to both bows in turn. Ben elected to try out my Axis, Zane liked the orange of the Formula and Mat ensured that the correct testing protocols were observed. 

Note in the photos below how closely Ben's posture is modelled on the visual display unit. Even his shirt colour and sleeve ring is depicted in detail. 

Don't think for a moment that there weren't huge amount of effort going into making this computer simulation as realistic as possible. 



















Ben proclaimed the Axis to be a quite useful device.

Zane then put the Formula RX through it's paces. 

Here we can see some detail photos of the high sensitivity gyro motion sensors and how they are attached. Note the delicate method that Zane is employing to hold the riser sensor in the most realistic torque free technique.










Like most high tech outfits, generally there is much interest from all participants when there is new toys of any type to be put through the testing wringer. 

Ben adopted a casual attitude to see how Zane would score with the simulated performance advantages of the Formula RX. 











The results? 

Both testers reported that these piece of equipment were both fun and they expected them to work quite well in the real world. 

Both expressed interest in seeing if their computations and simulation testing were correct. 

I can now report that having shot both today, they were indeed dead on!

Ah, the advances of technology that the youth of today take for granted.


----------



## whiz-Oz

Another weekend, another day at the Canberra Archery Club. 

A well kept club secret, up until now is that we have a chronograph. 
If you're not familiar with them, it's a device for measuring projectile speeds. 
Essentially, you shoot an arrow over the top of it and it tells you how fast the arrow went. 

Today I had intended doing some serious testing, but with a few postal delays, that was knocked on the head. 

So I figured that today could be spent learning how to use the Chronograph. The fact that it has a power switch and one button could somewhat speed up this process. 

Having not used it before though, it would be responsible to see if it does what you think it does and how reliable it seems to be. 

Once we decided that the "lb" that flashed when you turned it on, and the fact that appeared not to work MAY have indicated a low battery, it was a simple decision to go and get one. My calibrated tongue test showed it up as rather flat. I didn't bother to ask if there was a spare one in the office, but the thought crossed my mind..

Once I had returned from the nearest servo with the worlds most expensive 9 volt battery, it became apparent that my failure to ask was a mistake. 
There was a chronograph party going on with a spare battery from the Office. 

Brendan Wallaces's compound bow had had already clocked up a 264.3 fps pass. 
This surprised me somewhat. I just expected it to be faster for no real reason. When advertisers say that their bows at 350fps and above these days, you wonder how fast the normal bow is. 
Well, my benchmark for a 60lb compound shooting protours and (probably) 120 grain points is now 264.3 fps. 

Owen Van Acker expressed a desire to see how fast his arrows were coming out and so carved a groove in the air above the Chrony. His arrows are 30 and 1/4 inch X10's with 120gm Tungsten points. I don't know how much they weight, but they're not what you'd call a light option. He also has just wound his bow DOWN to 49 lbs. (49.9 and 49.6 via Easton Bow scale) 

Owen's arrows through the Chronograph came out at 198.9, 198.4, 198.4, 197.5, 197.3, 197.5, 196.8 feet per second.
This shows that Owen's release is pretty consistent. He's not been circulating in the top ten of Australian Archery's recurve men for no reason.

At that point, it was decided that Owen needed to somehow break the 200 fps barrier, so Andrew Lindsay supervised from the side to see how much more further back he could draw safely before falling off the arrow rest. 

With two attempts, he broke 200fps and there was a small cheer. With some extra tries of extended drawlength he managed to get one measured at 203.6 fps

Who says that an extra inch or so doesn't make a difference?

So lets put this into some sort of perspective. 
A 25" riser with long Samick Masters limbs (I think!), running at 49.75 (average) lbs, averaged 197.8 fps and with a bit of extra drawlength got 200.8fps and 203.6fps

Yep. Big deal, I hear you say. Well, this sets a comparative measuring point of sorts.

I then put some arrows through the Chrony with the Formula RX. On the same Easton Bow Scale, it measured 42.4 and 42.2 lb, so we'll call it 42.3 lb
Keep in mind that these are 40lb short limbs on a 27" riser and the limb bolts are both backed out to the maximum of six turns from bottoming out.
I had some guidance for the first few shots. It tends to end the testing if you shoot arrows a bit *too* low over the sensors. It also becomes expensive.

Owen discovered that the stabiliser end RIGHT in front of the readout was an ideal position. 
But not TOO close..

183.3, 184.3 184.1 183.0 182.8 fps
Not all the shots were recorded, but the average was 183.6. 

What you can tell is that my release is not as consistent as Owens. 


So at that point, I decided that I could be convinced to up the poundage somewhat. Unfortunately, experimental dilemma happened at that moment. Les, he of the Easton bow scale had to leave, so I couldn't measure the poundage on the FRX with both limb bolts bottomed out. 
HOWEVER:
We did have a spring scale and we've already measured Owen's bow.

Owen measured his bow several times with this quality measuring device. Recall that the Easton scale had indicated 49.75lbs
The spring scale indicated 44lb. 
This lead me to believe that accuracy wasn't of prime importance to its designers. 

With the wound up FRX then reading 43 lbs on the spring scale, we could be more than reasonably sure that it weighed LESS than Owen's bow at his drawlength, but exactly WHAT it weighed in reality is anyone's guess. This is the experimental dilemma. 

Then we had the same archer, Owen, put the same arrows, through the same chronograph at as close to the same draw length as I could manage by using a gauge stick.
199.6 199.5 199.4 200.9 199.4 199.8 201.8 fps for an average of 200 fps. 















































Here's some more perspective. 
27" FRX with 40lb Short limbs. Same Archer, same arrows, same chronograph. LESS poundage, higher speed. 

To counter this however, there is no knowledge of exactly how much less poundage with the same scale. The string on the FRX is an 18 strand of unknown material and the nock fit is looser. 

These are the two variables that I can't eliminate or reduce. 
Could they REALLY make up that amount of difference in velocity?

This is why testing is such an important thing to do carefully. 

However, it does indicate that this bow is fast after all. It sure doesn't sound like it. It's definitely a wolf in anaemic sheeps clothing. 

How much faster, with better controlled experimentation will be determined later. Stay tuned!


----------



## limbwalker

> My calibrated tongue test showed it up as rather flat.


 LOL!

And I thought I was the only one who tested chrono batteries this way... :zip:

Whiz,

You indeed have a gift for clever writing. You should put that to use someday (if you haven't already).

Chrono results are interesting and I think everyone who can afford one should have one. They are not real expensive these days. Mine was cheaper than just one of my Beiter plungers...

Strings can make a big difference. I have two strings for one of my bows that consistently give me a 3 fps difference. Different material, strand count and serving. The list of variables goes on and on, so you have to take all that into account. Rarely do I do a "perfect" chrono comparison. But I don't publish formal test results either, so to satisfy my curiosity, what I do is fine with me. 

Just yesterday, I was comparing the speeds of two sets of my limbs - my trusty SKY carbon Jacks that shot in Athens (albeit six years and tens of thousands of shots old) against an identical bow shooting my Samick Masters. Exact same draw weight according to my digital bow scale. The Masters were ever-so-slightly smoother at the clicker, and were consistently 5-6 fps. faster. 

You are correct about extra draw length, as I routinely get 200fps at 45# out of my SKY limbs, but the Masters were giving me 205-206 fps. 

That's pretty good speed for a 375 grain arrow launched from a recurve with fingers...

But I digress....

Thanks for the update. Looks like it's a shooter!

John.


----------



## midwayarcherywi

Some of my recent testing:

990TX on an Inno-Lite 25" riser. 40# limbs @28" draw. Nano pro w/110 points and spin wings. 16 strand angel string. 194fps

Winex 40# with same set up. 197fps

Border Hex-5 42# limbs on a BMG Extreme 24" riser. 28" draw. Nano Pro w/110 points and spin wings. 16 strand Angel string. 211 fps


----------



## ClayReeves

*Hoyt Formula RX bow*

Good afternoon. I own the Hoyt RX Riser and F3 woodcore limbs. After owning a number of new and older Hoyt bows, without any doubts this a fantastic system. My riser in orange is 25", the F3 limbs are 34lbs and long. It is tuned with a brace height of 9-1/2" twisted using 8125 string material. Serving is #62 black. The tiller is 1/4' top longer. I used the LimbSaver 3013 shock enhancers for both limbs. They are very effective in reducing vibration which really does not exist.. The bow is currently set up for 32lbs at 28" draw and produced 170 feet per second with Easton ACC 3L-04 arrows. If yoiu are considering the Rx bow, you will be blown away by it's incredible features. You may get a little more speed by using the F4 limbs. For longer draw lengths you may want to consider the 27" riser with medium limbs. What a fantastic bow, great job Hoyt


----------



## jmvargas

1) 32# BORDER CXG 68" limbs with 29" mckinneyII 725 arrows and 120gn pts, 12-strand fast flite plus strings....35# on my fingers=196 FPS..

2) 34# BORDER HEX5-H MK2 68" limbs with the same arrows and strings with 37.5# on my fingers=201 FPS.

risers on both set-ups are 25" PSE X-FACTORS...

they were also an untuned bow as further tuning is temporarily on hold due to current finger issues on my draw hand..


----------



## whiz-Oz

I wish that we had a "standard" arrow to use in the chronographing of speeds. 
It could travel the world with the same bowscale, visiting testing sheds. 
I guess we'd need a standard chronograph as well.


----------



## Harrison Ooi

whiz-Oz said:


> I wish that we had a "standard" arrow to use in the chronographing of speeds.
> It could travel the world with the same bowscale, visiting testing sheds.
> I guess we'd need a standard chronograph as well.


For recurves, why not go with A/C/E's?? Lightweight high performance target arrow that's light, giving a theoretical speed advantage over an X10. Straight vanes instead of spin vanes because you need speed not drag. You do want the FASTEST theoretical speed don't you? So using the lightest points possible too. I think 40# limbs draw to 30in should be a benchmark as that's what most people shoot.


----------



## limbwalker

Standard arrow? That's a flawed concept. 

Standard grains/lb. is what most of the quality bow tests use to compare speeds. 

Do a search for Blacky's tests. I believe he uses the old standrd of 9 grains/lb. of draw weight, at 30" . If all tests were done at those standards, we would have some meaningful results to compare.

John.


----------



## jmvargas

limbwalker said:


> Standard arrow? That's a flawed concept.
> 
> Standard grains/lb. is what most of the quality bow tests use to compare speeds.
> 
> Do a search for Blacky's tests. I believe he uses the old standrd of 9 grains/lb. of draw weight, at 30" . If all tests were done at those standards, we would have some meaningful results to compare.
> 
> John.


......totally agree with this..

it seems everyone posting arrow speeds--me included--always wants to put their best foot forward..human nature i guess.... 

having said that, my 725 mk2s are 4.9 grains/lb and will probably be unbeatable in the speed dept...all other things being equal---he he he!


----------



## Borderbows

jmvargas said:


> ......totally agree with this..
> 
> it seems everyone posting arrow speeds--me included--always wants to put their best foot forward..human nature i guess....
> 
> having said that, my 725 mk2s are 4.9 grains/lb and will probably be unbeatable in the speed dept...all other things being equal---he he he!


but not all things are equal.

The grains per lb, is a arrow mass to draw weight mass relationship measurement, but the strand count on your string is probably not to scale. for example 16 strands/34lbs = 0.47 strands per lbs. then to make that a 44lb bow would make that a 20 strand string which is daftness.
string weight and arrow mass both need to be considered when looking at proximity to a dry fire. as its all relative

All good fun though


----------



## whiz-Oz

Harrison Ooi said:


> For recurves, why not go with A/C/E's?? Lightweight high performance target arrow that's light, giving a theoretical speed advantage over an X10. Straight vanes instead of spin vanes because you need speed not drag. You do want the FASTEST theoretical speed don't you? So using the lightest points possible too. I think 40# limbs draw to 30in should be a benchmark as that's what most people shoot.


1. Lightweight isn't everything.
2. Speed isn't everything.
3. Straight vanes to spin vanes don't necessarily mean a drag penalty.

Why bother to use a benchmark of what people shoot if you're going to use an unrealistic arrow choice compared to what the top competitors shoot?

To compare any two bows to see if one has any better energy efficiency to any other, you just minimise the differences as much as possible and use the same arrow and the same measuring equipment.


----------



## John K

midwayarcherywi said:


> Some of my recent testing:
> 
> 990TX on an Inno-Lite 25" riser. 40# limbs @28" draw. Nano pro w/110 points and spin wings. 16 strand angel string. 194fps
> 
> Winex 40# with same set up. 197fps
> 
> Border Hex-5 42# limbs on a BMG Extreme 24" riser. 28" draw. Nano Pro w/110 points and spin wings. 16 strand Angel string. 211 fps


Bloody hell. 

Even taking into account the extra 2lbs that's one hell of a speed difference. As much as you'd expect to see by changing from an X10 to an ACE.


----------



## midwayarcherywi

Well, it's actually 4#. A Shorter riser and 2# heavier limbs. Still, I was very impressed with the speed of the set up. As we all know, it is just not the speed, but the overall shooting characteristics of the set up. I'm still immersed with making a final decision for the upcoming outdoor season.

I've also got a bit of a situation as my strongest spines are now weak out of this set up. I may have to pay up for new arrows. It's a good thing I don't chase women or drink heavily. This archery thing is a demanding mistress.


----------



## jmvargas

Borderbows said:


> but not all things are equal.
> 
> The grains per lb, is a arrow mass to draw weight mass relationship measurement, but the strand count on your string is probably not to scale. for example 16 strands/34lbs = 0.47 strands per lbs. then to make that a 44lb bow would make that a 20 strand string which is daftness.
> string weight and arrow mass both need to be considered when looking at proximity to a dry fire. as its all relative
> 
> All good fun though



......forgot about the string angle sid...my speed figures were based on a 12-strand string....i gained about 5 FPS vs my 16-strands...


----------



## Nick Forster

*Hex5 w's*

Tested last week at KG Archery on a Easton Chrono mounted 2 meters infront of the bow.
36 LBS Hex5W's (38Lbs on the fingers) medium 68" bow
720 ace's 27 1/2" long 110grn points
18 strand d75thin string.
8 1/4" braceing height.
4mm Tiller.
Seb Flute forged riser.
204.8 FPS average speed worked out at 204.3 fps
not bad for a light bow.:darkbeer:
Please note the slowest arrow was only 1fps slower than the 204.8 this was based over a ten arrow sample shooting this bow correctly not through a hooter shooter, I have found that these limbs are increadibly consistant and this was a junior archer shooting not an adult (a good junior Admitedly)
Nick


----------



## Vittorio

Usually I stay out of discussion about speed for recurve, but I can't stay silent more... 

If we only want to have output speed as term of reference, then we will:
- increase the precharge of the bolts to its maximum
and lower the brace to its minimum 
- use the thinner possible 452x string with just a very small serving for the nock only and for the shooting fingers, in nylon monofilament, with no nocking points at all
- use a nock not pinching the serving at all
- use very light small vanes or no vanes at all
- use 40 gr point
- shoot 2 fingers only
- go to the maximum draw lengt with the shortest possible arrow with 1" overdraw
- use McKinney II 950
- use exact center shot and teflon rest and plunger
- use a vulcolan tab
- shoot at 3000 mt altitude

Then try to get a group at any distance ...:wink:

One specific arrow is tunable (on recurve) only within avery limited range of speeds, so all efforts to increase speed by itself for the same arrow are useless, if you want to reach a well tuned bow, and an arrow can't be "anything" but must be built for a correct flight depending from its lenght and poundage to be used with it. First you decide the arrow in all its components, then you build a bow to shoot it properly. I have already mentioned somewere in the past that chrono can help in tuning a bow, in terms that a well tuned bow will give around to 1 to 2 fps output speed more compared to a not well tuned one. A Chrono is really usefull in tuning for this control only, as all other speed measures are what they are: numbers .


----------



## whiz-Oz

Unfortunately, this seems to have turned into a "My bow is faster than your bow" thread now. 
That's a pity, because if I wanted to play speed bow dragster, I'd only have to do what Vittorio said. 
It would prove very little unless someone was actually competing with the same configuration and being constantly the best. 

As nobody seems to do that, it does seem rather pointless. 

So I'll stick to looking at the results obtained with conventional setups.


----------



## midwayarcherywi

It's odd how threads evolve, but you did take the thread down this path.


----------



## whiz-Oz

Well, it was a natural progression to test it through a chrono. 

There will be other tests coming up though. I'm betting nobody is going to replicate them.


----------



## limbwalker

> Unfortunately, this seems to have turned into a "My bow is faster than your bow" thread now.


That's not how I read it. But if you say so...

Again, the only comparison that makes sense is to compare speeds at a particular grains/lb. and a particular draw length. Even then the other variables Vittorio mentioned will sway the results, but at least the comparison will be more realistic.

From what I've seen over the years, most competitive men's arrows are traveling right around 200 fps., but maybe less. I'd say certainly between 190 and 200 fps. A few faster than that too. I know my 380 grain ACE's used to travel around 207 fps. from a 48# @ 32.5" set of SKY limbs. 

Today, I'm going to test my SKY, Masters, and some Border limbs. I finally got my riser back that accepts all three limbs equally well... If nothing else, it is interesting to me. Anyone that gets fixated on speeds certainly still has a lot to learn however. 

John.


----------



## greennock

midwayarcherywi said:


> Some of my recent testing:
> 
> 990TX on an Inno-Lite 25" riser. 40# limbs @28" draw. Nano pro w/110 points and spin wings. 16 strand angel string. 194fps
> 
> Winex 40# with same set up. 197fps
> 
> Border Hex-5 42# limbs on a BMG Extreme 24" riser. 28" draw. Nano Pro w/110 points and spin wings. 16 strand Angel string. 211 fps


Glad to see some comparison testing on the 990TX limbs. It may not be scientific but using the same weight, string material & arrows, it's a great test for the average shooter to see.

Dissapointing to see Hoyt's best ILF @ $650 doing less or the close to 2005 technology Winex at $450. I wonder how they do against the Inno or Apec limbs?


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER

*wow*

Just came back from a trip down south... stopped in at Lancaster archery ..Pennsylvania, what a shooting complex... They where good enough to quickly set up a new rx for me to try... this bow is dead steady... super super quiet... and dead smooth limbs... sorry to say I HAD TO BUY IT... LOL LOL ... I must say staff there take care of you and go out of their way to help as I tried 2 different weights of limbs... They have most colors of risers in both lengths and various weights and lengths of limbs in both f3 and f4 variety. a special thanks to lee vivian who helped me ... thanks again and I probably have the first one in Canada.. as there is no stock here yet for 2 months... GUYS YOU HAVE TO TRY ONE they shoot sweet and its not hype its reality...


----------



## comp1

Is K1 still in business? He sent me a bunch of wrong stuff, refused to come get it and then my bank pulled the money back out of his account.

Have not heard from him since!


----------



## jmvargas

comp1 said:


> Is K1 still in business? He sent me a bunch of wrong stuff, refused to come get it and then my bank pulled the money back out of his account.
> 
> Have not heard from him since!


.....i just received a christmas greeting from them thru email so i would presume they're still in business...


----------



## whiz-Oz

Sometimes things just happen to go the right way. 

I have been interested in a few things lately. One of them just happened to be how consistant a decent recurve archer's release is. 

My chrono results have proven that mine isn't good at the moment. Much work to be done there. 

But how good is someone who is REAL good?

Ryan Tyack was interested in finding out what was causing the difference in sight marks between his two risers, so in a brief discussion it was decided that we should easily be able to check speeds between them to see if there was any difference. 

This let ME see how consistant a good shooter is and let Ryan get some answers as well. 

We tested both risers with the same set of limbs with two different weight arrows for at least 20 shots in each string. Then 10 shots each with a different set of limbs with different weight arrows just for the hell of it. 

Each string of shots used the same arrow, but we did use two different tungstens and two different Stainless while testing. Mainly due to me putting them back in the quiver because I didn't think not to..  
388.45 and 389.4 grains for the tungstens and 377.8 and 376.8 grains for the Stainless points respectively. 

(In case you're interested, 52.4lbs of Apecs grunt throws a 376.8 grain arrow at average speed over 20 shots of 209.75 fps.)

Ryans consistency was rather impressive. In four sequence of the twenty shots, his variation was 1.5 fps, 1.7 fps, 2.1 fps and 1.2 fps.

However, if you remove the fastest and slowest shots of each sequence, you come down to 1.3, 0.9, 1.1 and 0.9 fps respectively. 

I can't normalise much more than that, other than to say that in 72 out of 80 arrows, they were less than 1.3 fps variation..

So if you're getting good, you should be very consistent. 
Consider that his worst variation over ALL shots of 2.1 fps compared to the average of 208.27 is slightly more than 1 percent.

Take out the 8 worst shots... and that percentage goes down significantly..

So, what the hell does this mean anyway?

I also asked Ryan to put his arrows through the Chronograph from my Axis with 46lb 900CX medium limbs, Winact with 40lb Universal Glass Samick Short limbs and Formula RX with 40lb F4 Short limbs.

I adjusted the weights as close as I could get them at my draw length.

Ryan has quite a bit more on me so we had to weigh them all at HIS drawlength.

Axis was 44.7lb
WinACT was 44.49lb
Formula was 44.3lb

With Ryan's 376.8 grain arrow out of all of them, their average speeds were thus

Winact = 189.3667 fps
Axis = 191.0667 fps
Formula = 194.1 fps


Hmmm. Basic conclusion = Bow with least poundage (Formula RX) has shot a faster arrow....

And that faster arrow is a variation MORE than made up for by Ryan's variations..

Things that could affect my results:
The Winact has a different string of 452x against the Angel Magesty of the other two. 
Differences in nocking release force is unknown
Variations due to archer (although we can consider that it won't be much)
Not a big enough sample group out of each test bow..
Limbs of different weights being used.

So with those unscientific measurements, but better than the last test in that we were at least able to use the same scales, it once again looks like the Formula RX with F4 limbs does spit out faster arrows. 

Next time, we'll be in a shooting machine!

I do expect though, that the minimising of variation will only show more difference. 
I just need to be able to test more accurately.


----------



## scriv

limbwalker said:


> Hey, what gives? That DFC doesn't even get me to my pre-draw...  LOL!
> 
> Seriously, it looks pretty good at the clicker, assuming you draw 29"...
> 
> John.


+1


----------



## K1archer

comp1 said:


> Is K1 still in business? He sent me a bunch of wrong stuff, refused to come get it and then my bank pulled the money back out of his account.
> 
> Have not heard from him since!


Such opinions do not belong in this thread, please remember it is about the NEW Hoyt Formula bow and not K1 Archery. 
We have nothing else to say other than we wholeheartedly disagree with your accusations and selection of words. Please refrain from such accusations which are not truthful. 
We trust K1 Archery to have a strong reputation that cannot be shattered by false remarks. 
We would like to take this opportunity and thank you all for the continuous support and trust we have been receiving for years. And yes, K1 Archery is still in business! :teeth:


----------



## whiz-Oz

scriv said:


> +1


Keep in mind that these are *short limbs *and are *INTENDED* to be used at around that draw length. 

That's why limbs are made in three sizes, after all.


----------



## lorteti

whiz-Oz said:


> Hmmm. Basic conclusion = Bow with least poundage (Formula RX) has shot a faster arrow....


Why comparing the most expensive Hoyt limbs with a low-end glassfiber one and a 2 years older 'longer' 900cx? Isn't it waste of time?
My advise is first find the correct limbs to compare, like those Apecs, 990tx or even Border's. Just not wasting your time on comparing completely different class of limbs.
Or better take your time to shoot the Formula, see if you get better scores than your previous setup. And one thing I like to know, did the new Hoyt get you better endurance, are you be able to shoot more arrows before getting tired?
jx


----------



## whiz-Oz

lorteti said:


> Why comparing the most expensive Hoyt limbs with a low-end glassfiber one and a 2 years older 'longer' 900cx? Isn't it waste of time?
> My advise is first find the correct limbs to compare, like those Apecs, 990tx or even Border's. Just not wasting your time on comparing completely different class of limbs.
> Or better take your time to shoot the Formula, see if you get better scores than your previous setup. And one thing I like to know, did the new Hoyt get you better endurance, are you be able to shoot more arrows before getting tired?
> jx


No. It's not a waste of time at all. 
I'm not a professional bow tester. I don't just happen to have all these limbs sitting around, just so that I can run them through a chronograph.

Do you have the expendable cash to do the same test with what would be over 2500 dollars worth of limbs?

Do you think that I'm getting paid to do this?

I am seeing how they compare at as close to the same poundage as I can get, with the equipment and resources that I have. A 27 inch riser with short limbs is the same length and draw length range as a 25 inch riser with mediums. At the same poundage, the Formula performs better. 

And would reporting my score increase over a period of time reflect on my choice of bow?

I mean, obviously to expect that to make some sort of relevance, you obviously must go and shoot the same exact score all the time, regardless of how you feel, wind conditions etc. 

Are you after a trophy for "most consistent"? 

Would you SERIOUSLY expect that bows of the same poundage could be shot an identical amount and one would tire someone out noticeably more than another?

How also would one persons rate of tiring apply to someone else?

When I was 15 and about 60 kilos bodyweight, I did one rep of 100 kilos in a bench press. 

Can you possibly calibrate yourself in any way to that?

My advice to you is to be a little more realistic.


----------



## lorteti

Who ask you to buy these limbs to compare.
There is a thing called 'borrow', or just ask your friends to do the test with you.
If none of your friends have them, too bad, no test can be done, that's it.

There is something called 'average scores'.
My score increased average 10 points more at 70m, when I decrease the bow weight from 42.5lbs to 40lbs. That is very significant and can be notice within 2 month of practice.

Yes, even the limbs measured at the same poundage, the way it tires your body can be significant different. One of our best archer used to shoot Hoyt limbs, now he got the new VERA limbs, he noticed that he had more trouble to shoot the same amount for arrows. If you never count how many arrows you shot on practice, you should try to keep at least the same amount of shots every practice section, good for your stamina. That is very important for any amateur archers.
My advice is stop doing these silly limbs tests, just shoot them.
jx


----------



## lorteti

And one more thing about 'realistic'.
If I done a test of cars, and said the Ferrari is faster than a Toyota.
Silly isn't it?
Am I realistic?

I believed long ago that all top-end equipments can shoot at least 1400 FITA.
It's the archers that limits the possibility.
Never cares about testing bow performance of the high-end stuffs, I only cares about the durability and energy saving.
You are the one that likes to test the Formula setup, you are the one that proofs that it's better than the old limb fitting.
What is better?
It is faster? If not, why will I buy it?
Does it give me more endurance? If not, why will I buy it?
And most important.
Does it make me score better? If not, why will I buy it?
So simple it that.
jx


----------



## Vittorio

In Nimes I have had the occasion to have a look to some of the top level archers shooting the Formula RX bow, like Brady Ellison and Berengere Shuh, but what has me impressed has been Eleonora Strobbe shooting the Formula.
Elenora has shot as usual Bare Bow in the Recurve Oympic Junior ladies division, scoring 278+272, and getting to the 8th of finals by a double shot off ended 10/9.
The bow has shown very good reactions in Bare Bow configuration, much better than I was expecting. It seems Hoyt has finally made a good Bare Bow riser, even if they probaly did not design it for this.


----------



## limbwalker

Vittorio, thanks for the update. That's very interesting to hear about the new bow performing well as barebow.

I'd love to see this young lady shoot. Getting to the 8th shooting barebow! wow. She really has my respect. My oldest daughter will be happy to hear about this. She never wanted to shoot Oly. style in JOAD. Only barebow. 

John.


----------



## tirandaz

*Dfc*

Whiz-oz
Why did you turn the limb bolts out to max? Is this generally the way to test a draw curve? Why not by turning bolts all the way in?


----------



## whiz-Oz

lorteti said:


> If none of your friends have them, too bad, no test can be done, that's it.


Well then, no test can be done. It's that simple.



lorteti said:


> My advice is stop doing these silly limbs tests, just shoot them.


I will add that advice to your previous advice that I haven't taken.



tirandaz said:


> Whiz-oz
> Why did you turn the limb bolts out to max? Is this generally the way to test a draw curve? Why not by turning bolts all the way in?


No real reason. 
Now that I've got them all reasonably matched for weight, I can do the force draw test again. 
There is no accepted way to do a force draw curve in terms of where the limb bolts are. I expect that it won't make a great deal of difference, but will move things up in poundage with the same curve.

I guess there's only one way to find out though..


----------



## Paula

Love your stuff whiz-Oz.Keep posting and keep testing.Always good to see a person having fun and giving out information that they find....Good stuff!!!!


----------



## jmvargas

whiz...your posts are entertaining....silly...but entertaining!!...and your pictures are excellent....


----------



## scriv

*Rx*

I'm actually considering ordering one of these. I have a 32" draw. I seem to like a 70" bow. I'm thinking 27" riser, medium F3 limbs. This make any sense? Thanks for the input. d


----------



## Jay

Personally speaking, I found the Hoyt Formula Rx to be an incredible bow! I got back in December and slapped a few things on rather quickly. I brought it down to the range the next day and transfered over my stabilizer setup and started to shoot. I think with 5 quick minutes of a little bit of tweaking, I was ready to go! I have shot it for longer then a few weeks now and the good scoring hasn't stopped! :wink: 
Today, I shot in a FITA 18M Tournament where I scored 297, 296 for a 593. 

I am using a Formula Rx with F4 limbs and I love it more then the GMX and the Helix. I was a fan of the GMX, I shot it well indoor last year, and I really loved the Helix but I love the Rx more!

Brady Ellison sure seems to be shooting it well as he shot phenomenal in Nimes! (Good work by the way buddy!  :darkbeer: )

I think the Rx will be a huge hit this year and a favorite of many!


----------



## jmvargas

Jay's post is an example of a post that would make me curious that there may be something to this formula rx bow after all--ie--his shooting ability just adds to his credibility......PS..of course in his and many similar cases it's really more the archer than the bow....but then if the koreans start switching to it it may really be the bow...


----------



## lorteti

Jay said:


> Today, I shot in a FITA 18M Tournament where I scored 297, 296 for a 593.


Wow, that's impressive scores.
You should be there in Nimes, you just beats Brady's 592.
Keep on shooting the bow, I let us know any findings.
jx


----------



## jmvargas

lorteti said:


> Wow, that's impressive scores.
> You should be there in Nimes, you just beats Brady's 592.
> Keep on shooting the bow, I let us know any findings.
> jx


....not that surprising considering he's a member of the 2008 canadian olympic team....


----------



## Jay

I would have loved to go to Nimes but it did not flow with my University Schedule  I will be in Vegas again however, let's hope all the studying for exams doesn't get in my way of practice! Looks like my social life is going to go down the tube now, haha.

If you are in Vegas and wanna look at my Rx's then let me know, they are pretty stellar. I have no complaints at all. Just look for a goofy Canadian recurve shooter, haha.


----------



## lorteti

Hey, I remember a picture of you guys in Ulsan bow the knee in front of the Korean archer J.h. Oh when he set the new world record, very funny idea, great comedy.
Sadly, as amateur archer currently scoring around 1200, you won't see me in any international events, hope someday I can reach 1300.
It sound like that the Formula setup is as good as or better than the GMX. My view on this new bow is, it a different design, but not necessary better. It opens for more possibilities in bow design, but so does carbon risers and ultra recurve limbs.
Top archers like you guys can shoot phenomenal scores with any top-end bows, keep on the hard work.
jx


----------



## jmvargas

lorteti said:


> ............
> It sound like that the formula setup is as good as or better than the gmx. My view on this new bow is, it a different design, but not necessary better. It opens for more possibilities in bow design, but so does carbon risers and ultra recurve limbs.
> Top archers like you guys can shoot phenomenal scores with any top-end bows, keep on the hard work.
> Jx




..........+1..


----------



## fun4afew

I have shot my new Formula about 6 times now and I LOVE it! But I am not near as technical minded as all of you are!
Still I enjoyed the discussions!


----------



## bigdawg

Last weekend the New Formula RX broke the Canadian Indoor FITA record with a 593 (297/296).......today it was broke again by the New Formula RX. Jay Lyon managed to shoot 1 point off the World Record with a 298,298 =596!!! This was done in a FITA star competition. Congrats!!!


----------



## Jim C

That's some awesome shooting. I think Brady shot the same score at Nimes If I am not mistaken with the new hoyt bow too


----------



## bigdawg

Brady shot lights out in Nimes, it was a 296/296 I believe. The Formula RX is racking up some major accomplishments pretty quickly. I know any great shooter can shoot great scores with any good bow, but there is something to be said when the great shooters are smashing PB's with the new equipment.


----------



## Acehero

Are the top shooters using the carbon or wood versions of the Formula limbs, or are they split in their choices?


----------



## Harrison Ooi

Yes, it seems wood is quite popular. I wonder why??


----------



## bigdawg

I believe Jay is shooting the F4 limbs (carbon). Once in a while he is on this forum. I will see if I can get him to post some info about the 2 limbs.


----------



## bigdawg

http://www.hoytrecurve.com/community/news_detail.php?id=308


----------



## massman

*Discussion I do not see anyone talking about...*

A friend and I were discussing this new bow from hoyt and we both shared the same opinion... however I do not see anyone here thinking along the same lines.

In point is the 25" and or 27" new hoyt risers. Each diminsionally is 25 & 27" long respectively. However because of the change in the limb pocket area they do not have the sight window area of a normal ILF 25" or 27" riser. For someone shooting a std 25" ILF riser who wants to shoot the new bow yet retain the same sight window diminsions and the overall bow AMO (IE 68" bow) you end up shooting a new 27" hoyt rise with "SHORT" limbs. Similarly the same is true of the new 25" riser for an AMO of 66".

What then is the true advantage? Is this simply masking the Short versus Med versus Long limb discussion points of the past?

Regards,

Tom


----------



## DariusXV

I'm appreciating the fact that some well-established shooters are posting new personal bests with this new riser...

That being said, one has to keep in mind that the equipment they used to get to their current level of achievement and what they are using NOW does not simply follow point A to point B. It's a little more complex than that.

Most archers improve substantially over time regardless of equipment...as I am sure most readers are fully aware.

So, it's nice to see the press and watch the excitement of seeing my favorite star(s) move from brand to brand...but if I'm being truthful with myself I'd like to know how much they practice everyday (and who funds that?) and how many pieces of equipment they get to sort through before they find the golden formula.

No two guitars made are exactly alike...and your favorite musician might in actuality be playing an "inferior quality" instrument compared to yours.

But I bet he/she practiced more.

I'm just remembering how about a year ago there was a lot of speculation about the Mathews recurve and where we could get one. History is interesting.


----------



## bigdawg

So, to be 100% honest with you, Jay has only one Forumla RX and one set of limbs. He set them up and has shot that setup since. No going through different sets to find the magic combo, and I don't think many have that luxury. Also, he has been shooting the top equipment for serveral years and his practice/training hasn't changed much. Not going to say the bow is magic and thus his major accomplishments, but there is something to be said when a lot of guys who have been performing at a top level for a number of years are all of a sudden breaking records.


----------



## limbwalker

Congrat's to Jay for a great score. 

and to Hoyt for what appears to be the real deal. 

Nice to see results and not just hype. :darkbeer:

John.


----------



## lorteti

bigdawg said:


> Not going to say the bow is magic and thus his major accomplishments, but there is something to be said when a lot of guys who have been performing at a top level for a number of years are all of a sudden breaking records.


May I know who are those 'all' archers that breaks there records?
And what equipments are those archers using in the past?
Vittorio also reported that Michele currently shoot his very best 18m score with the old Zenit riser and new Kaya limbs.
He is very honest and humble to say that maybe it is the new limbs, but also maybe just because Michele is in top form.
jx


----------



## bigdawg

http://www.hoytrecurve.com/community/news_detail.php?id=306

Click through the photo's and read the artcile, it will name a few.


----------



## Jay

Hey,

I don't know much actually about wood limbs and am hoping to try them out one day. I chose the F4's because I have only ever used Carbon Foam limbs. I figured I'd just shoot what I am used to. I LOVE the F4's, they are very smooth and stable. I wish I could give you more info on Wood Core and F3's but I have no feedback. All I know is Brady Ellison uses them and he shoots phenomenal. They are an elite Hoyt limb, so I assume that they are just as awesome as the F4's.

Hope that helps

-Jay Lyon


----------



## whiz-Oz

I am rather impressed with the F4 limbs. 
I haven't been treating them like they're fragile pieces of kit either.


----------



## OldSchoolNEO

Whiz, nicely compiled technical data aside, your review has been entertaining.
Thank you!


----------



## limbwalker

What's wrong with that Crappie? 

:tongue:

John.


----------



## whiz-Oz

Shame limbwalker! You should know that fish, as we all should!


----------



## Progen

Not much to look at until it spits.


----------



## sundevilarchery

Wow, I'm hard on my equipment, but that takes the cake.


----------



## limbwalker

Whiz, j/k of course... 

What kid of lure did you use to catch those limbs? Or are they still in the tank? :mg:

John.


----------

