# Serving end loops



## Ray knight

I have a few sets of strings i bought recently and the end loops were not served. It was bowstring just wrapped around the loops. I like to use the .007 halo as it looks much better and cleaner. My question is do you really need to serve them? All strings i have buoght from proline, viperx, charlies strings were all served loops like i have been doing. The strings i got from 60x and vaportrail were NOT served, they were just wrapped with bowstring. Does it make a difference? The string wrapped ends look pretty sloppy from 60x and Vaportrail. Makes me think its a shortcut or something. I have strings from another maker that appear to have the loops wrapped in bowstring and they are done very neatly and look good. What are your opinions? To serve or to wrap (neatly) ?


----------



## foamslayer20

My stringmaker Energywave does them with serving. I feel that serving is stronger and lasts longer than string material.


----------



## PowerLineman83

Pictures would help.... I'm having a hard time believing 60x or VT would send strings out that were anything less than great... That being said, I've done both. I've used tag ends to serve my loops and I've served my loops with Halo(.014 and .007) and 3d with good results both ways. I honestly can't say I've got a favorite because either method done right should look just fine.

Again, I'd like to see pix if you have them or can take them of the strings you're talking about.


----------



## unclejane

I haven't tried using the bowstring, though it sounds kind of intriguing. I have noticed that the grip of bowstring itself isn't really ideal and a dedicated end serving seems to do better in terms of sticking to the string. 

But if you can do a good serving with the bowstring, I don't see how it could otherwise make a difference in the final string. 

I'd like to try this one day just for grins and see how the string comes out (is there a good video on this available somewhere?)...

LS


----------



## b0w_bender

It's called a tag end wrap and it's fine. 
I personally like the served end my self because I think it looks better. I honestly don't believe there is any performance issue. The failure point on a string is almost never the end loop so spending a lot of time and energy serving them is counter productive for the string makers. It really is only a visual thing so I wouldn't worry about it. If it really bothers you ask the string maker up front if the tag end or serve end. I would suspect any high volume shop is going to tag end. It's just faster and easier with no significant trade off in performance.


----------



## jaredc

It's perfectly fine. Mathews and some PSE's don't use tags or serving..just the strands hanging out and have lasted forever.


----------



## flag

i think the tag end method is less likely to slip than serving them but i do like the way the serving looks on the loops but all i do is the tag end but tag ends look good if done rght


----------



## 3Dmaniac

I myself am new at string building. Ive had a jig for years but in the last 6 months ive gotten serious about it.. i do the tag ends.. i was having problems with my string length while serving the ends..I dont know what was going on,,since i started doing tag ends, ive had no problem at all..Tag ends are a bit less time consuming as well.


----------



## Ray knight

PowerLineman83 said:


> Pictures would help.... I'm having a hard time believing 60x or VT would send strings out that were anything less than great... That being said, I've done both. I've used tag ends to serve my loops and I've served my loops with Halo(.014 and .007) and 3d with good results both ways. I honestly can't say I've got a favorite because either method done right should look just fine.
> 
> Again, I'd like to see pix if you have them or can take them of the strings you're talking about.


Honestly these look so bad i won't put them on my bows. I doubt it would effect performance but it just looks really nasty and makes me feel i dis not get my money's worth. I have never seen end loops like this until recently. All other strings i have bought were served nicely or wrapped neatly at least. This is what i am talking about, which seems to be getting common these days. One reason i started making my own now.

Vaportrail:









60X


















Now here is an example where it was done well:


----------



## foamslayer20

Ya those aren't very pretty considering how much thier strings cost.


----------



## ArcherWolf

Those are what I refer to as "lazy loops". Though this method is fewer steps, it still takes just as long to tag end serve as it does to lay down a serving. The only real savings I suppose is they are not using as much serving materials.


----------



## tuckcut

I've seen 60X strings on bows before and they look fine.. The tag end serving in many stringmakers opinions are stronger and less prone to "slip"... I had a winder stop turning on one side and instantly at 1700 rpms twisted the string so tight the steel 1/4 post straightened up, but my tag loops never failed.. 

If it's the gap in the tag serving you are noticing, this actually means the stringmaker served/stretched under pressure, which is good!! It'll be hidden for the most part when put on the bow.. I wouldn't worry about it, they'll be fine..


----------



## unclejane

I agree some of those aren't pretty, but they also look strong as hell too... 

Anyone have a video or instructions on how to do these? I have an idea on it, but wonder what the correct method is. I'd like to try this one day..
LS


----------



## brandonlw

You'll be fine the tag end serving method works great


----------



## ex-wolverine

While I agree that those aren't not the prettiest loops I have seen, I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the strength of them

Some of the most sought after makers use TAG ends

Crackers
Johns Custom (Breathn)
Terminal Velocity (Michael Deck)
60X
Strict9
PRO-LINE used just recently started serving his loops and no one complained about his strings when he did TAGS

There is a guy on here who's name started with John (builds great strings by the way) that did a test with a load cell and found that TAGS lost less poundage than served loops see post #7 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=777477&highlight=load+cell...


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=715205&highlight=load+cell

I did a test myself (not with a load cell) on my jig and left both strings overnight and found that the tag end served string lost less poundage over 8 hours @ 300#...

I disagree with TAGS being the lazy method, when in fact its faster and easier to serve a loop on a 4 post than it is to tag end method

I like tag end due to the fact that there is little to no transition coming off the loop, they are less prone to serving separation that a served loop at the transition area...

There are a few guys that I know of that have excellent transition coming off the loops with serving Twisted Archer, Hillbilly Customs and JBK...I haven't seen Pro lines new strings nor have I seen any Extreme bow strings in person but I'm sure they smooth

I know for a fact that most of us take pride in how the strings look , There is no way Brad (60x) lets a string out of his shop looking like the pics above...
Those pics are an example of (no attention to detail) but that don't make them weak by any means, that's purely cosmetic

Here are some photos of how the transitions look from a tag end that has some TLC built in...If done right there should be no gaps anywhere on the loop or in the transition and they look pretty good


----------



## ex-wolverine

look at post number two http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1849844

Thats what Im talking about with served end loops, if you look real close , it is separated right where the serving ends on the end loop...Thats why I like tags...But like I mentioned above there are a few guys that are real good at served ends 

There are pro and cons to both methods, its a matter of preference


----------



## Ray knight

Those above look great! I have another set as well that look just the same as the others i posted. Maybe worse. I think what happens is some of the big string makers get a ton of constant orders and they end up hiring other people to make strings for them who don't have the same skill as they do and just don't put the same quality into the product. Here is the other set. i waited 3 weeks and paid $170 for these 2 sets, so when they arrived looking like this i was pretty upset and felt cheated. I expected high quality workmanship. They are sized right and i have no doubt they will shoot well but if i were selling strings there is no way i would let them out the door looking like that. Way too sloppy. Would you put these on your bow?


----------



## ex-wolverine

Ray

I would shoot them all day long, 



> Ray knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those above look great! I have another set as well that look just the same as the others i posted. Maybe worse. I think what happens is some of the big string makers get a ton of constant orders and they end up hiring other people to make strings for them who don't have the same skill as they do and just don't put the same quality into the product. Here is the other set. i waited 3 weeks and paid $170 for these 2 sets, so when they arrived looking like this i was pretty upset and felt cheated. I expected high quality workmanship. They are sized right and i have no doubt they will shoot well but if i were selling strings there is no way i would let them out the door looking like that. Way too sloppy. Would you put these on your bow?
Click to expand...


----------



## Ray knight

ex-wolverine said:


> Ray
> 
> I would shoot them all day long, but I wouldnt let those out my door
> 
> I know you wouldn't. YOU make your strings. Thats the difference. You know what you are sending out the door. You put pride in your work. I have seen some really nice strings you have done. When you have to hire a crew of $10-$15/hr guys to make them for you so you can keep up with orders, thats when the above starts to happen. Hand made items are only as good as the care that the maker puts into them.


----------



## Ray knight

I should mention the ones in my pics have never been mounted on a bow. They came to my door exactly like the pics. Right out of the package.


----------



## Nitroboy

I been building strings for bout 5 years, sell a reg set for $100 and a one can roller guard for $125, that's building, installing and tuning bow, I do it cause I love it and I use the extra cash for my archery hobby. I started serving my end loops with serving then started doing tag end method and love it, I can make my end loops a lot cleaner looking to me kinda like ex-wolverine he is the reason I started doing it cause it looks so much better, I serve both loops on my split buss with serving just cause up there it looks better to me, either way works but if you take your time and know what your doing the tag end method can be done cleaner and better looking and is still served but it's just with string material, if waxed before serving and served tight it looks and works perfectly. IMHO

P.S. I too would never build a string with loops that ugly for a customer, EVER!


----------



## unclejane

Here's what my end loops look like tho on a pair of shot-in strings. Well, these aren't as bad as I've done before but I agree that if I were making strings for others and not just myself I'd try to make them look as nice as I could.

I'd probably be a little perturbed by the appearance of the above loops, but I'd put them on the bow first and see what they look like under tension. It looks like they're just bunched up a bit when relaxed...

LS


----------



## dwagoner

Ive found a method for me to get my loops to stay together pretty well now, before i would get a split right around corner area of loop where alot of tension is when on the stretcher, it would move a little on me sometimes, tough part is your building before stretching so i cant say that 100% of the time there may not be a little movement after being on the stretcher and serving time as well, that corner part puts alot on the tag end loops. BUT the good thing is there structurally still perfectly sound even with a little bit of gap, like said PSE doesnt even do anything to their loops, i tried this on my set now on my matrix as i built solid red and on the buss i put tags on lower half and left the splits unserved as there was obviously no ends there, NEVER again will i do that for sure, was too much a PITA when tuning to have 12 loose strands on each leg and taking on and off just a few times, was a trial i did for myself and learned to not even try it LOL


----------



## bowgramp59

tag ends is all i do any more, if done properly they are the best way .


----------



## Ray knight

unclejane said:


> Here's what my end loops look like tho on a pair of shot-in strings. Well, these aren't as bad as I've done before but I agree that if I were making strings for others and not just myself I'd try to make them look as nice as I could.
> 
> I'd probably be a little perturbed by the appearance of the above loops, but I'd put them on the bow first and see what they look like under tension. It looks like they're just bunched up a bit when relaxed...
> 
> LS
> View attachment 1473435


Those look fantastic! Nice work!


----------



## Ray knight

dwagoner said:


> Ive found a method for me to get my loops to stay together pretty well now, before i would get a split right around corner area of loop where alot of tension is when on the stretcher, it would move a little on me sometimes, tough part is your building before stretching so i cant say that 100% of the time there may not be a little movement after being on the stretcher and serving time as well, that corner part puts alot on the tag end loops. BUT the good thing is there structurally still perfectly sound even with a little bit of gap, like said PSE doesnt even do anything to their loops, i tried this on my set now on my matrix as i built solid red and on the buss i put tags on lower half and left the splits unserved as there was obviously no ends there, NEVER again will i do that for sure, was too much a PITA when tuning to have 12 loose strands on each leg and taking on and off just a few times, was a trial i did for myself and learned to not even try it LOL


You do a really nice job on your strings. I can tell you spend a lot of time of them and care about the appearance. It shows! Your strings have NOT BUDGED even a hair on my turbo. I measured ATA and checked timing after about 1500 shots and it is the exact same as the day i installed the strings and tuned the bow. Zero peep movement. High quality craftmanship and TLC. Thats what its all about!


----------



## dwagoner

Ray knight said:


> You do a really nice job on your strings. I can tell you spend a lot of time of them and care about the appearance. It shows! Your strings have NOT BUDGED even a hair on my turbo. I measured ATA and checked timing after about 1500 shots and it is the exact same as the day i installed the strings and tuned the bow. Zero peep movement. High quality craftmanship and TLC. Thats what its all about!


Thanks alot, i appreciate that and more am glad that their up to your standards!!! after many years in military i dont like to half***** anything, as they say, i do take alot of pride and continually evloving. And have some of the posters right here to thank for helping me out as if i didnt im not sure if i would be any darn good at building. 

As for those pics you posted i can say also that i wouldnt be worried about putting them on my bow and if they would hold up, would i let a set go looking like that, no i wouldnt. Would i get past the twisting part of the build and even serve them, no i wouldnt. BUT i cant speak for whoever built those flame/blue sets so ill leave it at that. Now that VT set (yelloe/blue) you have showed me before i would definitely contact EARS on here, he works for VT i believe and will handle that for you im sure. But just wanted to say ive had some loops move and ive seen other builder from here with same issue, a top builder that my buddy previously bought a set from few years back before using mine and his had moved also, its tough as some can stretch well over the typical 300lb and i stretch higher than that myself also, But i totally understand where your coming from as a buyer and expecting nothing but the best when your paying for it.


----------



## Ray knight

dwagoner said:


> Thanks alot, i appreciate that and more am glad that their up to your standards!!! after many years in military i dont like to half***** anything, as they say, i do take alot of pride and continually evloving. And have some of the posters right here to thank for helping me out as if i didnt im not sure if i would be any darn good at building.
> 
> As for those pics you posted i can say also that i wouldnt be worried about putting them on my bow and if they would hold up, would i let a set go looking like that, no i wouldnt. Would i get past the twisting part of the build and even serve them, no i wouldnt. BUT i cant speak for whoever built those flame/blue sets so ill leave it at that. Now that VT set (yelloe/blue) you have showed me before i would definitely contact EARS on here, he works for VT i believe and will handle that for you im sure. But just wanted to say ive had some loops move and ive seen other builder from here with same issue, a top builder that my buddy previously bought a set from few years back before using mine and his had moved also, its tough as some can stretch well over the typical 300lb and i stretch higher than that myself also, But i totally understand where your coming from as a buyer and expecting nothing but the best when your paying for it.


Your strings are my benchmark Dennis! I just tried the tag end serving and really took my time and it came out really nice. I flattened the trophy string as i was serving it and overlapped it so it would not separate. Maybe thats the key to it?


----------



## dwagoner

takes a few times to get it exactly how you like it, keep up the practice. its all ive used for compounds and also have a tag end string on my recurve for bowfishing, its got 2 summers on it and lasting perfectly!!!! but when i sell obvioulsy i serve ends on curve strings.


----------



## Flame-Tamer

3Dmaniac said:


> I myself am new at string building. Ive had a jig for years but in the last 6 months ive gotten serious about it.. i do the tag ends.. i was having problems with my string length while serving the ends..I dont know what was going on,,since i started doing tag ends, ive had no problem at all..Tag ends are a bit less time consuming as well.


Add a 1/4 to the length and you will be right on the money. Remember the serving takes up room when youe put it on the posts totwist up. I had same concern.


----------



## SaltyFLgirl

I shoot a PSE and they were not served, my cable loop cut in half, luckily I saw it before it made it all the way through, got new strings and cables made. PROBLEM SOLVED. If they aren't served get them served or new ones.


----------



## Ray knight

SaltyFLgirl said:


> I shoot a PSE and they were not served, my cable loop cut in half, luckily I saw it before it made it all the way through, got new strings and cables made. PROBLEM SOLVED. If they aren't served get them served or new ones.


My Wife's Matthews Jewel came stock without served loops as well.


----------



## 60X

Those crappy loops only won 23 world and national championships this tournament season. I have found a loop method yet that will hold up consistantly to 600lbs.


----------



## *ProLine*

Hello,

I don't poke my head in too often, but I thought I might be able to help 

These are just some facts on high production...

Tags, take Longer........... Yes, longer. We have equipment to secure tags, and serve in less time to do tags, which involves 100% hands. No equipment. Hands! That is time consuming.

Tags, have a higher tensil strength compared to served loops with no tie off.

Tags, give a great appearance when done correctly. Some of the finest to be seen are by a few of the posters here.. Ex-wolverine as one example.

The reasons ProLine BowStrings quit using tags almost two years ago.
Production... The more we build, consistency is key... I can't control ten peoples hands, but can control their use with equipment. Our strings would have lost quality if we continued that way. 

Second, TIME. We needed to cut time. As earlier stated, with our equipment, we can build much quicker with serving them.

Now I did state how the tensil strength is stronger with tags. That is referring to simple served loops.
A few companies secure their tags before serving over... Each is unique, and if done properly, has just as strong tensil strength. ABB, ProLine BowStrings, and one or two others secure tags first before serving.

Some end loops served can look worse than the pics shown, seperation, and serving transition.

I just don't want anyone to look down on the tags... They put us in the big show. 
Obviously you don't want them looking ragged, so hopefully you can get that fixed..but as far as integrity, they should still be great.

Hope that helps!

Joe
ProLine BowStrings


----------



## Hoytalpha35

I played around with tag ends this week and was quite happy with the results. I had a lot better luck with xcel and 452x. Do you guys think the strands move under the tag end and balance out during the prestretch? I believe the tags hold. This is the best luck I've had with the blended materials as far as a balanced string and no peep twist and that's the only thing I can think of that would possibly be different.


----------



## dwagoner

agreed, Well said....

if i could show a pic of the set on my bow right now it would show a slight seperation on the corner of the end loop. i dont like it but it does happen.


----------



## dwagoner

Hoytalpha35 said:


> I played around with tag ends this week and was quite happy with the results. I had a lot better luck with xcel and 452x. Do you guys think the strands move under the tag end and balance out during the prestretch? I believe the tags hold. This is the best luck I've had with the blended materials as far as a balanced string and no peep twist and that's the only thing I can think of that would possibly be different.


noway all those strands move under tags and equalize, if theres some that are loose then they will stay taht way, think of it like this, with say 12 strands of one half color on a string thats wrapped around both ends you would have to have everyone move to equalize the whole piece of that color, its like a pulley system with 6 wraps on each end where if one moves a little they all would move, it just doesnt happen. Im sure the example is hard to imagine but i know this from being recovery in military and having to use pulleys sometimes to recover tanks where you run winch out and back and get more power out of it since you can change how much it moves with more pulleys to greaten the amount you can pull. BLAH BLAH i know im rambling now, sorry


----------



## Ray knight

60X said:


> Those crappy loops only won 23 world and national championships this tournament season. I have found a loop method yet that will hold up consistantly to 600lbs.


Why not just wrap them a little neater? Make them look decent/acceptable? I have no doubt they will shoot well but even my stock Hoyt strings look better. Many people buy custom strings to make their bow look better as well. I sure would feel a lot better spending $170 on strings if the product looks the part. I am embarrassed to put the ones i got on my bows. So i started making my own strings, and found that making a neat end loop is, not hard!! Actually its VERY simple and does not take much time at all. It only takes a little TLC. I know you guys make very good performing strings but please, its the details that matter just as much to many people...make them look presentable. The strings i got gave me the feeling that whoever built them could care less what they looked like as long as the length was correct, etc. It shows. They instill ZERO confidence. I am sure many people have never had custom strings from other makers and are fine with end loops looking like that and I know you guys must be very busy and sell a ton of strings. Thats great. If you actually care about the product your customers are paying you a lot of money for and are waiting patiently for WEEKS to get, take the extra 2 minutes, yes, 2 minutes, and wrap the ends better. Otherwise people will see them on someone's bow and say ***?? and will surely not to ever want to buy your strings, Or they can see a really nice, cleanly made, professional looking string set and will want to buy one for themselves. Just trying to help.


----------



## Ray knight

*ProLine* said:


> Hello,
> 
> I don't poke my head in too often, but I thought I might be able to help
> 
> These are just some facts on high production...
> 
> Tags, take Longer........... Yes, longer. We have equipment to secure tags, and serve in less time to do tags, which involves 100% hands. No equipment. Hands! That is time consuming.
> 
> Tags, have a higher tensil strength compared to served loops with no tie off.
> 
> Tags, give a great appearance when done correctly. Some of the finest to be seen are by a few of the posters here.. Ex-wolverine as one example.
> 
> The reasons ProLine BowStrings quit using tags almost two years ago.
> Production... The more we build, consistency is key... I can't control ten peoples hands, but can control their use with equipment. Our strings would have lost quality if we continued that way.
> 
> Second, TIME. We needed to cut time. As earlier stated, with our equipment, we can build much quicker with serving them.
> 
> Now I did state how the tensil strength is stronger with tags. That is referring to simple served loops.
> A few companies secure their tags before serving over... Each is unique, and if done properly, has just as strong tensil strength. ABB, ProLine BowStrings, and one or two others secure tags first before serving.
> 
> Some end loops served can look worse than the pics shown, seperation, and serving transition.
> 
> I just don't want anyone to look down on the tags... They put us in the big show.
> Obviously you don't want them looking ragged, so hopefully you can get that fixed..but as far as integrity, they should still be great.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> 
> Joe
> ProLine BowStrings


Joe, every string set i got from Proline was super neat and looked very professional. You guys do an outstanding job. Your strings always got to me in 4-6 days after i ordered them, and i had two strings that the peep rotated on, you guys replaced the strings FAST without question. I think it was 3 days later i had them in my mailbox and they were perfect. That is gold in my book. I am sure when you did tag end serving, it was done neatly. I can tell that you guys really care about the appearance your product as well as the performance. it shows in the details.


----------

