# I.B.O. Rules...2 Minutes, VS. 3 let-downs??



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Basically, why both??....I think that it should either/or...If an archer can draw and let down their bow 15 times in the allotted 2 minutes, what makes the difference??...I've personally had several cases where I was forced to take a shot, that resulted in less points than I felt that it should be , due to the new 3 let-down rule...Anyone else had this experience, or share my thoughts on this??...I wear glasses, and alot of times, when I draw back, my glasses fog up, and I cant see through the peep...This weekend, I draw back on a target...The sun was blaring, and I couldn't see through the peep, I let down...Drew back, still couldnt see through the peep, let down....Sun went behind the clouds, I draw the bow, sun came out...Had to shoot the shot...Pin looked good where it WAS....Ended up a five on that shot, it was an easy shot, actually the easiest shot we had all weekend....Hard headed on my part, I know, but I thought that it was kinda B.S...A buddy of mine is dealing with some T.P. issues...he had some janky shots this weekend as well, due to drawing, and letting down, and having to shoot on the third shot.....Please share thoughts and opinions on this, what do Y'all think???.....Harperman


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Add you and your buddy to a 1000 others and thats why it takes so long to shoot a course. I think it should be watched even better than it is. I do shoot glasses also and I know how it is. In 40 targets if I let down 10 times it would be alot for me. Aside from the first person to the stake (because the IBO needs you to walk 400 yards between targets sometimes lol) You should be pretty much ready to look at the shot, figure the yardage, and shoot your shot within 2 minutes easily, even with a let down or two.
I'd turn my head for a guy whom is just having an issue with one shot on the course, but you see the letdowns and tinkering around from the same guys on every shot it gets old quick.
I'm not busting your chops Harperman, I shoot wearing glasses and you have to find a system that lets you get your shots off without fogging up. I do know how it is but I try to prepare as best I can so it won't be an issue during a shoot.
Just my opinion on your question. I wish it was watched closer by range officials and dealt with accordingly.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Add you and your buddy to a 1000 others and thats why it takes so long to shoot a course. I think it should be watched even better than it is. I do shoot glasses also and I know how it is. In 40 targets if I let down 10 times it would be alot for me. Aside from the first person to the stake (because the IBO needs you to walk 400 yards between targets sometimes lol) You should be pretty much ready to look at the shot, figure the yardage, and shoot your shot within 2 minutes easily, even with a let down or two.
> I'd turn my head for a guy whom is just having an issue with one shot on the course, but you see the letdowns and tinkering around from the same guys on every shot it gets old quick.
> I'm not busting your chops Harperman, I shoot wearing glasses and you have to find a system that lets you get your shots off without fogging up. I do know how it is but I try to prepare as best I can so it won't be an issue during a shoot.
> Just my opinion on your question. I wish it was watched closer by range officials and dealt with accordingly.


Fair enough...So, You think that having 3 let-downs, AND 2 minute rule together are O.K.?...Not to hack on the Open class shooters, but lets be real, the 2 minute rule seems to be just a suggestion for a good many of those shooters...What I see for most groups in any Sighted class, the first shooter at the stake normally takes the longest, they are the first one up, and as such, get the yardage, angles, etc..etc...The rest of the group should be somewhere behind the first shooter, and they should have a pretty good idea of the target distance, angle, where the kill is, etc..etc., by the time they get to the stake....If everyone takes the full 2 minutes, 4 shooters in a group should be on, everyone shot, and off that stake and pulling arrows in 8 minutes... 8 minutes X 20 targets is 160 minutes, plus wait times, and walking around the course, it's not unreasonable to see taking all morning till afternoon to shoot 2 ranges at an IBO Triple Crown shoot....3-D is a slow Archery sport, that's for sure..........Harperman


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

I can see your point, 2 minutes if enforced should be the rule, if you draw 20 times in 2 minutes thats your issue. Problem is nobody enforces the 2 minutes. Should not be up to the archers to enforce (we pay to shoot not to be referee's lol) there should be officials walking the courses keeping an eye on the hold ups.


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## gen2teg (Jan 29, 2009)

i could be wrong but isnt it three let downs and then you shoot on the fourth time you draw


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## LCA (Apr 20, 2009)

gen2teg said:


> i could be wrong but isnt it three let downs and then you shoot on the fourth time you draw


You are allowed 3 let downs... "If an archer lets down more than three times, he or she shall receive a score of zero for that target." Straight from the rule book.

Here is the rule we saw evidence of being broken....

"4. When shooting, the archer must touch the appropriate stake with some part of his or her body. At times, stakes are set to challenge the archer with various shooting positions. Alterations to the ground around the shooting stake using any tools or leveling aids, natural or otherwise is not permitted"

There were several targets on range "D" where the previous group kicked dirt to level the ground at the stake.... couldn't prove it since we didnt actualy see it but it was fresh dirt and they were the only group ahead of us on that range.

If people can't follow the rules and play the game fairly they need to quit... it is a trophy class... i can't believe there are folks willing to cheat for a $5.00 plaque.


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## LCA (Apr 20, 2009)

I think that both rules need to be there, if someone takes 5 minutes and never lets down thats to long and if someone lets down only three times in 5 minutes thats still to long. I wear glasses s i know where you are coming from... i have made shots i didn't want to because i was pushing the limits... we all have the same rules and terrain to deal with just because i have a obstacle to deal with i shouldn't get any benefit the other guy dosen't JMO.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

not enough range officials at ibo. up to the group to police these rules.


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## rdraper_3 (Jul 28, 2006)

I shot with a group of guys that were in HC and 1 of them had a G5 sight with a single moveabe pin AND he adjusted it at EVERY TARGET!! He wasn't shooting worth a crap so I didn't say anything about it


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

This past weekend at Bedford I was shooting with 1 guy in my class MBR and 2 guys in AHC. The guy in my class pointed out that the younger AHC shooter was always shooting a foot or so off in front of the stake with nothing touching the stake. Even after pointing it out to him and letting him know what he was doing was against the rules he kept doing it. He didn't shoot very good at all so we all just let it go.


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## rdraper_3 (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm in MBR and they were in HC. Bunch of young guys under 21 too, supposedly sponsored by G5....wow, they were really bad reps for G5. Cussing up a storm, spraying arrows all over the targets, missing completely, just not good reps for a company


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## LCA (Apr 20, 2009)

rdraper_3 said:


> I'm in MBR and they were in HC. Bunch of young guys under 21 too, supposedly sponsored by G5....wow, they were really bad reps for G5. Cussing up a storm, spraying arrows all over the targets, missing completely, just not good reps for a company


Someone mentioned they were shooting in a group all by themselves and the were in the team shoot, were you in there group? maybe there were more than 1 group??


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## rdraper_3 (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes, I joined a group Saturday mid afternoon when I went out to finish the course. I was NOT impressed with their attitude, actions and shooting abilities. I wanted to split off and join another group but couldn't. Oh well, I just shot 1st at every target so I didn't have to look at all the arrows sprayed on the target. I'm NOT perfect by any means, but come on, that crap was uncalled for from supposed staffers. It's possible there was more than 1 group too


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I didn't see a single range official out. I'm about IBOed out
May have shot my last one. 

They are going to rineharts next year


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## rdraper_3 (Jul 28, 2006)

Yeah I heard they might go to Rinehart targets too. I really despise those targets. It's kinda like that 2" diameter stab rule....won't know until next year


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

J Whittington said:


> I didn't see a single range official out. I'm about IBOed out
> May have shot my last one.
> 
> They are going to rineharts next year


wow...hadn't heard that one.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

LCA said:


> Someone mentioned they were shooting in a group all by themselves and the were in the team shoot, were you in there group? maybe there were more than 1 group??


thought ibo split up buddies.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

carlosii said:


> thought ibo split up buddies.


they try and ask if you know each other, but if the groups walk up in two's and lie, the people at the tent cant know.

they do need more officials on each course to monitor the slow groups. any good golf course will do it, in fact, even some bad ones.


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## jack mac (Feb 8, 2011)

Harperman said:


> Fair enough...So, You think that having 3 let-downs, AND 2 minute rule together are O.K.?...Not to hack on the Open class shooters, but lets be real, the *2 minute rule seems to be just a suggestion* for a good many of those shooters... 8 minutes X 20 targets is 160 minutes, plus wait times, and walking around the course, *it's not unreasonable to see taking all morning till afternoon to shoot 2 ranges at an IBO *Triple Crown shoot....*3-D is a slow Archery sport*, that's for sure..........Harperman



If people would respect the folks behind them, stick to the rules (2 minutes) in place wait times would be reduced. It is unreasonable to take all day to shoot 2 ranges. Perhaps more folks would be out there shooting if judges kept up the pace of play, range officials need to police the groups. 3-D does not need to be a slow archery sport.


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## BROX (Sep 29, 2005)

LCA said:


> You are allowed 3 let downs... "If an archer lets down more than three times, he or she shall receive a score of zero for that target." Straight from the rule book.
> 
> Here is the rule we saw evidence of being broken....
> 
> ...


I saw an advanced hunter kick the dirt flat on a hill shot in the group in front of us also the 3 guys i shot with on Saturday not only knew each other they rode to bedford with ea other.I can't remember but one of the guys names and he didn't shoot well the other guy was 3 up after 20 when i left the group after finishing my 40 and they didn't have a 4th member put with the group when they went back out my fault for not saying anything probably


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I.B.O. Rules...2 Minutes, VS. 3 let-downs?? 

Sounds more like a personal issue. Fog is hazard that just happens and there are things you can apply to stop or lessen fog. Sun is another hazard and having a fellow shooter help shade the peep and/or lens is allowed.
I've had those dark targets in a dark hole and had to shoot out the sun. Near impossible to see the target even with help. We had three targets yesterday that were this way. Even with help shading a shooter in our group, he shot two targets in the hind end for 5s. It sucks, but misses would have really been the pits.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Harperman said:


> Basically, why both??....I think that it should either/or...If an archer can draw and let down their bow 15 times in the allotted 2 minutes, what makes the difference??...I've personally had several cases where I was forced to take a shot, that resulted in less points than I felt that it should be , due to the new 3 let-down rule...Anyone else had this experience, or share my thoughts on this??...I wear glasses, and alot of times, when I draw back, my glasses fog up, and I cant see through the peep...This weekend, I draw back on a target...The sun was blaring, and I couldn't see through the peep, I let down...Drew back, still couldnt see through the peep, let down....Sun went behind the clouds, I draw the bow, sun came out...Had to shoot the shot...Pin looked good where it WAS....Ended up a five on that shot, it was an easy shot, actually the easiest shot we had all weekend....Hard headed on my part, I know, but I thought that it was kinda B.S...A buddy of mine is dealing with some T.P. issues...he had some janky shots this weekend as well, due to drawing, and letting down, and having to shoot on the third shot.....Please share thoughts and opinions on this, what do Y'all think???.....Harperman


I think the rule sucks, why make yourself shoot when you know the shot is not right, big difference between someone who constantly holds up the group versus someone who is trying to do there very best, could be shooting a BT release and the wind blowing radically, I dont go to big shoots just to shoot I try to do my best. I think this rule sucks


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

Its pretty easy really. The IBO expects the shooters to police each other. Let downs are much easier to keep track of than seconds. Have you seen anyone pull out a stop watch while you are shooting?


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

The only way to put a stop to things like no officials on the range, or groups not getting busted, or people just breaking the rules is to have a shotgun start. The asa doe's this very well. There is usually a range official in sight on the course. They keep things moving and keep it legal.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

jre4192 said:


> Its pretty easy really. The IBO expects the shooters to police each other. Let downs are much easier to keep track of than seconds. Have you seen anyone pull out a stop watch while you are shooting?


In regards to policing your correct, however I think this is a poor and lazy excuse. IMHO, the host club and IBO is making a chunk of $. Don't believe me, look at the payouts and do the math. Then add the fees for parking pass, vendor spaces. If they are weren't making money, they woudnt have the the events annually!
I have no problem with the IBO and host club making money, just the amount they make is excessive IMHO. THAT'S why I feel it should be their responsibility to referre,not ours.

Hope y'all like Rinehardts cause there's a better than average possibility that IBO is making a change. And WHY? Simpe It's all about the $$$$$


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Lol The IBO wants everyone to get a five mile hike in when you shoot a 40 target course. It would be too easy to set a course up on 30 acres they need 300 acres to make it more like your hunting lol. What's a range official????



C.Callison said:


> The only way to put a stop to things like no officials on the range, or groups not getting busted, or people just breaking the rules is to have a shotgun start. The asa doe's this very well. There is usually a range official in sight on the course. They keep things moving and keep it legal.


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## 2wyoming (Sep 5, 2007)

C.Callison said:


> The only way to put a stop to things like no officials on the range, or groups not getting busted, or people just breaking the rules is to have a shotgun start. The asa doe's this very well. There is usually a range official in sight on the course. They keep things moving and keep it legal.


Chris your exactly right. Tis is why im shooting the next 2 ASA's to see what they are all about.
Probably wont go back to IBO.
Like you said the other day, im tired of being beat by a pencil, and or sitting at the start of a range for an hour like nelsonville was always like.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

J Whittington said:


> In regards to policing your correct, however I think this is a poor and lazy excuse. IMHO, the host club and IBO is making a chunk of $. Don't believe me, look at the payouts and do the math. Then add the fees for parking pass, vendor spaces. If they are weren't making money, they woudnt have the the events annually!
> I have no problem with the IBO and host club making money, just the amount they make is excessive IMHO. THAT'S why I feel it should be their responsibility to referre,not ours.
> 
> Hope y'all like Rinehardts cause there's a better than average possibility that IBO is making a change. And WHY? Simpe It's all about the $$$$$


The only way to do what you are proposing is to have a "range official" waiting at every target. What would that take 200 additional staff members? Are you going to pay them?


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## TexasHrtShot (Mar 5, 2008)

rdraper_3 said:


> I'm in MBR and they were in HC. Bunch of young guys under 21 too, supposedly sponsored by G5....wow, they were really bad reps for G5. Cussing up a storm, spraying arrows all over the targets, missing completely, just not good reps for a company



I dont think these guys were sponsored for the company. I know a lot of the Pro Staffers for G5 and they are all older expect for two that are younger. Also the G5 Pro Staggers are all shooting Prime bows and had their Prime Shirts on in Bedford. Do you know if they were shooting Quest or Prime bows??? They could of been sponsored by a local shop? 

Like I said I know most of the pro staffers at G5 and they are all great guys and gals. They would do anything to help a fellow shooter out and are great representation of the company.


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## Hardcor-nut (Nov 29, 2007)

I made the jump to the Semi-pro class at Bedford and really enjoyed it!
There was no backups what so ever. Everything went very smooth. If any of you are on the fence about making the jump, do it! All of the issues you all are talking about went away for me. 
Just my $.02


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## DavidParenteau (Sep 23, 2011)

I just shot a I.B.O W/Q in Norwich behind 4 of the slowest individuals ever to pick up a bow.....lol Frustrating to say the least one guy took 6 minutes to get his shot off on 3 seperate holes...1 or 2 i can understand,Nerves TP or what ever but when you have 5 groups of shootersbacked up behind you it is time to pick up the pace. we started timing the guy just as a joke but then it became a matter of trying to finish beore nightfall


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

DavidParenteau said:


> I just shot a I.B.O W/Q in Norwich behind 4 of the slowest individuals ever to pick up a bow.....lol Frustrating to say the least one guy took 6 minutes to get his shot off on 3 seperate holes...1 or 2 i can understand,Nerves TP or what ever but when you have 5 groups of shootersbacked up behind you it is time to pick up the pace. we started timing the guy just as a joke but then it became a matter of trying to finish beore nightfall


Sanctioned event, this is where the Officials should have been called in.


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## Rush (May 16, 2005)

"an archer at the shooting stake may not let down more than three times. Let down is defined as drawing to anchor, then letting down and not taking the shot." from the IBO book. So if you come to full draw and do not anchor, it is not a let down. However, most people I know that let down more that 3 times, would generally take more than 2 minutes if that rule was not inforced. I think going to Rhineharts will be a mistake if that happens. Just my opinion.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

jre4192 said:


> The only way to do what you are proposing is to have a "range official" waiting at every target. What would that take 200 additional staff members? Are you going to pay them?


The words that IBO needs to learn is organization and management. They could save a lot of time, work, and have range officials if they set their ranges ASA style. Shot gun starts would be great ! everybody starts and end at the same time. Fair as it possibly could be.
However, this will not happen. IBO is just like a group of hard headed grumpy old men that are set in their ways. They have no desire to change and careless how the shooters feel. Here is the proof:
During the STC they experimented with shotgun starts. Archers liked it, but BEDFORD was the same ole, same ole. I don't hate the IBO, just want them to improve


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

Hardcor-nut said:


> I made the jump to the Semi-pro class at Bedford and really enjoyed it!
> There was no backups what so ever. Everything went very smooth. If any of you are on the fence about making the jump, do it! All of the issues you all are talking about went away for me.
> Just my $.02


i know of another guy that went to semi this year for the same reasons..


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## Droptine49 (Oct 21, 2011)

When it gets hot like it is now, it's horrible getting behind the groups of 4 that all take 5-8 minutes a shot. This past weekend at a local shoot, my group shot 18 targets (on a 25 target course) in no particular order and went to the house.


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## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

Did you know that the IBO only gets $5 per shooter? Do you have any idea how much the club spends on targets? One needs to gather the facts before opening ones mouth.


J Whittington said:


> In regards to policing your correct, however I think this is a poor and lazy excuse. IMHO, the host club and IBO is making a chunk of $. Don't believe me, look at the payouts and do the math. Then add the fees for parking pass, vendor spaces. If they are weren't making money, they woudnt have the the events annually!
> I have no problem with the IBO and host club making money, just the amount they make is excessive IMHO. THAT'S why I feel it should be their responsibility to referre,not ours.
> 
> Hope y'all like Rinehardts cause there's a better than average possibility that IBO is making a change. And WHY? Simpe It's all about the $$$$$


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I have my facts. IBO gets $7 per head, host clubs $28.00 per head, and the payouts suck. 90% or more shooters would agree to that. Yes clubs buy targets, but at very discounted rate, then they are auctioned off. So that's at least a wash, but I bet the clubs make $ oh let's not forget the bow hunter defense range fees, vendor fees, and the parking fees. Tons of $ being made! 

If you don't like what I post, you have the option to ignore what I post. I've been an ibo member and attended most of their events since 1996. As a paying customer, I feel like I have the right to post my concerns regarding the ibo. 
I don't hate it, but there is a lot of room for improvement!


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

Well you have a few of the costs J... how about the leasing of the fair grounds as well as the farm where most of the shoot is based. Money from the club also has to go back into fixing the damage created on the farm so they can continue their use of it. Outhouses they aren't free or cheap, how about the feul for the tractors and the four wheelers. Targets... greatly reduced, you assume but it isn't that big a break, why do you think they are concidering the Rhienhart offer... seems like if the deal I hear is true, it is a no brainer. So on top of that, why shouldn't a club make a bit of money so they can keep their club healthy and finciancialy stable?


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

No problem with clubs making $. $ is the deciding factor for going to rhinehardts. But being greedy is different. Look at the purse amount, vs the number of participants! A joke. 2nd since the clubs/ ibo ARE making A LOT of $, why should it be our /shooters/ responsibility to play referre? Why do they refuse to have shotgun starts? Why do they refuse to listen to us? Without us they make 0
All we are asking for is the ibo to listen to us, and show some graditude. They make $ 75 per head for semi pro and regular pro classes. Ibo also makes money from memberships, and the world qualifiers. There's no mistake, the ibo/ host clubs are making a lot of $

Based on entry fees and payouts for semi pro, 70 shooters, $ 3,245 profit.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

From what I've seen the ASA is a for profit association, that has the same issues an IBO event would have. But they payout alot better. How can they do it?


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## TRIPLETT (Jan 21, 2004)

"Look at the purse amount, vs the number of participants" Well, that's not the way it works. You pay to be in the money
otherwise you shoot for a plaque. My wife won FBR in Bedford, i didn't put her in the money so she doesn't get any. You
might see 100 people in a class but maybe only 50 or so got in the money. The money paid back is the total of what was
put in by the shooters, the IBO or club doesn't get any. The shoot fee you pay is so you can shoot a National event that
a club puts a lot of work into and get a plaque if you place. Don't forget some of the "whole" 7$ the IBO gets goes for the
world purse.
Triplett


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Trip of Ohio,ur argument does not make sense to me: congrats to the Mrs for winning

Pay extra for money class or not, fact remains the same, host club is making a killing. The 15 or so dollars extra paid to participate in the money class makes the problem it worse. The open shooters are competing for a much smaller pot; the ibo/ host clubs make the SAME off each shooter regardless if participants pay extra for the money class. 

IMHO, that fact further supports my argument: they are making a killing, lol. And we ( including myself) still continue to support them. I doubt I will much longer. I feel the ibo/host clubs could do a better job by being more organized, have shot gun starts, and set a quality range without spreading the course over miles . But they reuse to listen to any request. 
I'm NOT the only one who feels this way, Im just one of the few to so publicly.
If the ibo LISTENED to us and become more shooter friendly, attendance would improve= them making more $ 
Good luck in Erie. I have no desire to attend.

I do not hate the IBO, but it's time for some improvement.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Don't forget the big name sponsors like McKenzie, Mathews, Hoyt, Easton think they have banners and signs all over for free??? Food and Tshirts sales add in too. It can improve, they make money which is fine, but should support and listen to their customers also.


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## TRIPLETT (Jan 21, 2004)

Well J. sorry i didn't get back to you yesterday, i was off line for awhile. I beg to differ, i think
my statement not (argument) makes a lot of sense. Of course the IBO/Host club makes the same
regardless, that's the way the clubs stay alive. The entry fees have actually went down sense the
money is a choice. Before you was in the money weather you wanted to be or not. Now if people
want to shoot, have fun and save a couple of bucks because they know they won't place what's the
problem with that? Is this all about the money? Seems like that's all it is these days, all about the
money. You like shot gun starts, i don't. You want the courses shorter, i like getting in shape for
hunting season with my bow in hand. That's why we live in the US of A we all are allowed to have
a opinion. Could the IBO listen better " YOU BET" I agree with that 100%, but i have seen a few
changes in the last couple of years that tells me 'Some" of them listen a little. Like i said this
is not a argument (to me) i'm just stating my opinion. Sorry to hear you won't be in Erie, i would
have grilled ya a hot dog sat. evening.
Triplett


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## jjgsp (Sep 6, 2002)

I was at a 40 target qualifier last weekend. One group went out at approximately 915 am and finished at 530PM according to the club members putting on the shoot. There were four people in the group. It was a long day behinf them.


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