# ancient archery terms...sources?



## ghotierman

I've found discussions refering to 'hamartanein' as a term refering to an archer hitting an outer ring, or missing the mark....just wanting to know of specific reference...

can anyone point to some ancient greek texts regarding archery?

thanks for indulging me.


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## Matt6288

i know for sure his bow is obviously a highly reflexed composite. they had to heat it up so the sinew and stuff will become soft so they can just string it. and in the end they werent even able to draw the bow lol


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## bsu_beginner

*excited!!!*

I'm so excited to see people get involved and discussion greek history. LOL, that was my degree in college. 

Great you got to check out the meaning of the word for sin. 

In reality though, outside of the Odyssey and the Illiad archery isn't mentioned a ton. That's simply because they didn't have it. Hoplite warfare was the theme of the day. Anyone here seen the movie "alexander" a very accurate depiction of Greek warfare was during the battle of Gaugamela when Parmenio's left flank was impailing the Persias on the scarisus (I honestly forget the spelling). The 15' spear with a backweight. That part when they started mowing people down was very much a reason why they didn't need archers. 

There is a very telling part in the Odyssey thought that I think gives hint to why there wasn't archery. In the book, there is mention to Odysseus' father still being alive. However, he is relatively ineffective and is more content to water his flowers. The relationship between the Basileus and the Boule is such that titles WERE NOT hereditary. It was based on how well you were as a ruler and a warrior... and when you could no longer fullfil your warrior obligations, you would stand down and let someone else go for you. 

If you want to be a good warrior, you want to be known as macho. That being said, Greeks prized competition and the willingness of the warrior to look their opponent eye to eye while killing them. It was a sign of manliness and therefore killing them at a distance with an arrow is not a macho thing to do. 

If you look at the Odyssey, Odysseus is painted as a crafty and a man full of tricks. I think that says something there. 

If you read Pindar's Olympic Odes, archery is not even mentioned in there (although there is a sport there call "pankritation" which its only rules were that it prohibited biting and eye gouging... whatever that's all about). Pindar was an honorable enough soul that when Alexander sacked Corinth in 336BC (I think), Pindar's house was the only thing left standing. If archery were to be mentioned... he'd have had to have done it.


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## longbowguy

See wikpedia.org and do a simple google search; there is lots of information there. But for general interest it seems to most often be interpreted as missing the mark or falling short of the mark, as in archery. Oddly, it is the Greek word that was later translated as 'sin.' That seems a little harsh to me, but clergy have often been awfully intolerant, to my way of thinking. And they sometimes bend plain speaking or thinking to their particular views. Me, I favor tolerance of the other fellow's ideas and way of speaking.


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## ghotierman

Excellent points...thanks. I was also a classics major in college, but has been some time. The bow does come into play as a hunting tool. Consider Artemis and Apollo. And there is the legend of Orion. Sometime portrayed as an Archer...he is said to have been killed by a bow shot from Artemis...tricked into shooting at a speck on the ocean. Hercules was struck by a bowshot, poisoned tipped arrow, correct?

Your point about the type of warfare is very keen. Even up to medieval times, the long range was suspect and considered cowardly.

The wily Odysseus may be the best source then, and interesting since even his bow took a trick to string and pull....


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## ghotierman

Regarding the reference to 'sin'. I find it very intriguing and inviting of interesting discussion. "missing the mark" as in archery is interesting in that it is not an evil act or something that is inherently bad..just unfortunate. despite our best intentions, sometimes a shot misses....akin to what Paul says in Romans "the good that i would do, i do not". Our reactions to 'missing the mark' are sometimes similar to how we respond to sin...consider the dad's reaction on the ATA archery range ads when he doesn't shoot well..."there must be something wrong with this equipment"..as an archer, we know the fault generally lies with the operator of the equipment. The more we try to take the human factor from the shot, the better our accuracy....kind of like surrending to Christ.....


anyway..it's rekindled a lot of themes I've started to explore.

You just gotta love this sport...it's connected to so many topics, themes, endeavors...

need to start working on the "all i need to know, i learned from archery" list!

keep talking!


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## bsu_beginner

You're right about Achilles being struck by the poison tipped arrow. However, I would like to stick my neck out and assume that the bow would be more infamous than it would be famous because of that, and the story from the Illiad would only go to further the contempt for the bow in the eyes of the Greeks. 

Oh btw... yes... there is an inscription from the temple of apollo that refers to "we fear apollo for his many flaming arrows." I'm hesitant to think of whether the greek knew that "flaming" has a different meaning now, especially when in reference to apollo... but I'll leave that where it is LOL. Ironically, Apollo is also the name of my bow. 

Well, I would also say that there is no reason why the Bible should NOT be considered a legit historical document, placed alongside the Illiad and the Odyssey. I'm not going to go into the argument of whether it is true or not... thank God I don't. What I'm saying is that if you read between the lines on the Odyssey and the Illiad, you find "a slice of life" inside of them that tells us of life back then and gives us a glimpse of what mattered to the people at the time. Therefore, finding references in the Bible to archery is about as pertinent to finding references of archery in any other document in ancient civilization. I mean, look at Limbwalker's signature. Look at the references to the assyrians and the babylonians. 

You're right about bows being considered evil. I do know that the pope of the 13th century considered crossbows to be immoral. Which is probably why the genoways of 1346 used them in Crecy. LOL. Mercenaries. 

Quite frankly, I still think they are painted as being evil. I mean, did anyone see the movie Braveheart? Did you see the protagonists in the movie welding arrows? No, you come out of the battle sequences thinking "why don't they put their bows down and play fair????" 

FYI. My fiancee finished touring the Cathedral of Salisbury and told me a funny story. legend has it that a fortress was built next to the cathedral in 1067, as part of William of Normandy's history rewriting venture. Well, apparently, the soldiers and monks didn't get along, so the monks secured permission from the pope to change locations. On the condition that the cathedral only be moved an arrow's shot away from its original location. It was moved 2 miles. Apartly, some wiseguy got the idea to shoot a deer, and the deer took off and ran 2 miles before dying. Hey, its still an arrow's shot. LOL.


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## toxo

*Bow And Arrow*

gET OUT YOUR BIBLES..............HERE GOES...........GEN 21:20, 27:3, 48:22 AND ALSO IN 2 cHRON 26;14-15 LSO GO TO ARCHERY HISTORY THERE HAVE BEEN ARROW HEADS FOUND CARBON DATING 50,000 YEARS AGO.....AND A SHOOOT THROUGH BOW DATING ABOUT 1400 AD.


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## dbracer

*needless comments*

Dang guys, this is good stuff. Don't let this thread die. I've learned more in the past five minutes than I've learned from AT in two years. 

'Course who said AT was supposed to be a knowledge disemminator.

Respectfully,
dbracer


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## JoyLogic

*Greek Archery Terms+*

Fascinating stuff here. But one term I am familar with as a writer who has dabbled a tiny bit in the Greek stuff is "Kyros" not certain of the spelling, which refered to the path an arrow needed to take in flight, to thread between obstacles, and hit a moving target from a moving archer. In rhetoric it meant seeing at the begining, where a certain line of debate would end.

I am 1/3rd of the way through writing a young adult fiction novel, which is trying to be very realistic, about a Christian Archer circa 1300 A.D.

One point I have made to my nephews, for whom I began this writing project, was that the Trojan War story was a tale primarily about Knightly Combats. That there are many many more individual or family duels, between these landed aristocratic Knights than big war scenes.

Another is the English use of massed archers making them a Power in Europe where the other Europeans didn't like the idea of an armed and powerful peasantry.

When I put those together I see archer as "evil" only in the same sense that capitalism, or trades were evil...they promoted Democracy, which is antithetical to Aristocracies. The Bow makes any man who can devote time to studying it an equal on the battlefield to any other man. And this situation isn't changed until the middle/late 1800's when the repeating rifle begind to be more powerful...and even more democratic.


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## metalking00

the odyssey really doesnt say anything about the bows construction other than that it is of horn. I think of it as a gemsbok horn bow, not composite or even reflexed, but just the horns. Also, analyzation of the text preceding the competion could vindicate this. Penelope tells odysseus (disguised as a beggar) of her dream where geese are killed by an eagle, and the beggar tells her the dream means odysseus will come and kill the suitors. Penelope says that there are two types of dreams, ones that come from a gate of ivory and ones that come from a gate of horn. The gate of ivory (teeth) is comparable to only words, passing through the barrier of teeth. The gate of horn (hair) is symbolic of what is brought by thought. In other words, talk is cheap, and she is hinting that if the dream is from the gate of horn, it will make itself true in odysseus' horn bow. I think that if it were a composite bow, the horn aspect of it would be only a piece of the bow, instead of the main point of the bow that is presented.

Sorry for going at it so much, but thats my idea.


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## ghotierman

Joylogic...you've thrown another term into the mix! thanks! I'll have to do some more spellunking in the lexicon for that one.


metalking...thanks for the refresher on that scene from the odyssey...i need to revisit that too. I love the imagery and the many levels that homer applied there...

keep up the discussion....
can any other sport have such depth of history and symbology?

thanks..!


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## dbracer

*Hamartia*



ghotierman said:


> Doing a bit of study for Sunday school, and I came across the interesting fact that the word for sin "hamartia" is a greek phrase meaning "to miss the mark".
> Archery then lends itself as a great object lesson.
> 
> I'm wondering if any of you history buffs or etymologists know of any references to the "hamartia" term refering specifically to archery or targets in classical literature. I haven't had time to page back through the Odyssey to see if that phrase is used at all...but that brings up a question too...any theories on the type of bow Odysseus had? Remember it took a trick to string it.....thinking maybe a recurve, or composite.....as it was he was extremely accurate...shooting a shaft through 12 axe heads....
> 
> Anyway...if anyone can point out some greek root phrases dealing with archery (perhaps aristotle/plato or others?) it would be helpful....
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Jay.


ghotierman,

I’m curious. Was this word found in some version of The Bible, or just in your research somewhere? I don’t remember seeing it in Bible study. That’s not to imply I remember everything I’ve read in The Bible or anywhere else. Such things can only be claimed by guys like C.S. Lewis, who probably did remember everything. 

If not The Bible, where did you find this term?

While I’ve got your attention, would you mind revealing the derivation of your “handle.” If that’s personal, I understand.

I don’t know language hx back as far as the Greeks, but I do find the derivation, of so many names, phrases, and words being so closely related to archery and Middle English, fascinating. 

e.g. Archer, Bowman, Fletcher, Boyer, Stringer, Tillerman, Arrowsmith, Ascham, high strung, point blank, buddy, keeping tabs, quarrel, having shot one’s bolt, bolt from the blue, on the mark, spot on, Parthian shot.

All of these I’m sure you know, which makes them no less fascinating. As you have said, "in no other sport" do we find so varied a hx and symbols. 

Respectfully,
dbracer


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## dbracer

metalking00 said:


> the odyssey really doesnt say anything about the bows construction other than that it is of horn. I think of it as a gemsbok horn bow, not composite or even reflexed, but just the horns. Also, analyzation of the text preceding the competion could vindicate this. Penelope tells odysseus (disguised as a beggar) of her dream where geese are killed by an eagle, and the beggar tells her the dream means odysseus will come and kill the suitors. Penelope says that there are two types of dreams, ones that come from a gate of ivory and ones that come from a gate of horn. The gate of ivory (teeth) is comparable to only words, passing through the barrier of teeth. The gate of horn (hair) is symbolic of what is brought by thought. In other words, talk is cheap, and she is hinting that if the dream is from the gate of horn, it will make itself true in odysseus' horn bow. I think that if it were a composite bow, the horn aspect of it would be only a piece of the bow, instead of the main point of the bow that is presented.
> 
> Sorry for going at it so much, but thats my idea.


Metalking,

Pardon my ignorance here. It’s been about 35 years since I’ve picked up a copy of the Iliad or the Odyssey. I'm more apt to be reading Dave Brown maybe even as deep as Faulkner, but more likely...say Lewy L'Amour, Capstick or _The Maneaters of Tsavo_. So you can see 9 years of higher ed did me little good. 

Was the gemsbok native to that part of the Mediterranean, or would it have been encountered only in travels somehow? I thought that particular oryx was seen only on the sub-Saharan African plain. ‘Course I don’t claim to be an expert here. I probably just need to look it up. 

I appreciate your knowledge. Certainly figuring out what Homer was trying to say is beyond me. Look forward to your comments.

Respectfully, 
dbracer


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## metalking00

Gemsbok live in south africa and one type lived in the arabian peninsula until recently.

Odysseus recieved the bow from Iphitus in lacadaemon or Sparta. So if it was of gemsbok horn, it must've been acquired through travel or wide roaming traders.

Since the text says nothing about what the bow is, I just picture it to be a gemsbok horn bow, because they're spectacular and I like them. The bow could just as well be of some other horn.


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## dbracer

*gemsbok*

metalking,

I like your persistence, or should I say insistence? 

I like gemsbok horns also. Infact I prefer it to the sable, a more sought antelope. I took one near the Lompopo and it hangs on the wall above me. 
What a hunt!

Thanks,
dbracer


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## metalking00

I hope I get the opprotunity to hunt one someday.

This is an interesting thread so far.

I decided to check into the text of the iliad to see if theres anything about what Pandarus' bow was made of, and sure enough, there it was: 

"Forthwith he unsheathed his polished bow of horn of a wild ibex that he himself had erst smitten beneath the breast as it came forth from a rock, the while he awaited in a lurking-place; and had pierced it in the chest, so that it fell backward on the rock."

- The Iliad, book 4, translation by Walter Leaf.

Also, later, when it describes Pandarus' method for drawing the bow, it says he pulls it back to his chest:

"Then he took the notch and string of oxes' sinew together, and drew, bringing to his breast the string, and to the bow the Iron head. so when he had now bent the great bow into a round, the horn twanged, and the string sang aloud, and the keen arrow leapt eager to wing his way amid the throng."


Cheers!


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## metalking00

I just realized that the part about pandarus' drawing method was pretty off topic. I threw it in there because I thought it was interesting...


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## dbracer

*gemsbok*



metalking00 said:


> I hope I get the opprotunity to hunt one someday.
> 
> This is an interesting thread so far.
> 
> I decided to check into the text of the iliad to see if theres anything about what Pandarus' bow was made of, and sure enough, there it was:
> 
> "Forthwith he unsheathed his polished bow of horn of a wild ibex that he himself had erst smitten beneath the breast as it came forth from a rock, the while he awaited in a lurking-place; and had pierced it in the chest, so that it fell backward on the rock."
> 
> - The Iliad, book 4, translation by Walter Leaf.
> 
> Also, later, when it describes Pandarus' method for drawing the bow, it says he pulls it back to his chest:
> 
> "Then he took the notch and string of oxes' sinew together, and drew, bringing to his breast the string, and to the bow the Iron head. so when he had now bent the great bow into a round, the horn twanged, and the string sang aloud, and the keen arrow leapt eager to wing his way amid the throng."
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Metalking,

Ibex, they are an interesting animals because they are such good alpine climbers, and their horns are pretty curvey and unique. Most are close to the Mediterranean and India. Acutally they're goats not antelope, altho one can make a pretty good argument that antelope are simply extensions of goat species. (Provided, one can trust a classification system that says animals which live in the water, swim constantly, has a skin structure outwardly like a catfish, and never comes on land, mammals simpley because of varying internal structure.) But what the hell, its as good a classification system as any as long as you don't take it too seriously except on tests. 

Ibex go about 250lbs. The gemsbok I shot was about 600lbs altho, interestingly, many references say that big ones are only 480lbs or so. Not sure why. Darn thing could climb about like a dairy cow, but outright speed was pretty amazing.

Regardless of what Leaf has to say about homer, I prefer your estimation that the gemsbok was involved. 

Thanks,
dbracer


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## metalking00

dbracer said:


> Regardless of what Leaf has to say about homer, I prefer your estimation that the gemsbok was involved.


me too.


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## bsu_beginner

*amator*

Another interesting word from archery is "amator." its where we get "to love" from Latin. Apparently, modern sports as we know it started with Henry VIII. Archery caught on during that time with the nobility. In the past, it was the domain of the yeomen. Now noblemen needed to set themselves apart by saying that they "did it for the love" and not for the money, like the lowly yeomen. And when they competed, the wore all white. Wimbeldon's "all white" dress code is the direct affect of that. 

Amator has nothing to do with being a novice.


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## Darkened Sky

This is a very old thread. But, I am hoping to get some information. I am looking for a comprehensive list of all ancient greek archery terms. Hamartia is the basis for sin. What else is there and where can I find it? I would appreciate any input from you.


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## SonnyThomas

I read too much and not enough. Of ancient times, told was battle fields being mud through blood letting. Even today all that much blood is not present with deadly arrows. "We walked upon the shields and bodies, forgoing knee deep red mud." PBS; Of biblical times, men did not immediately return home. Said was a period of cleansing, the battle adrenalin to calm. Meaning hand to hand combat.... 

Stories abound of the sky turning dark of the letting of arrows. 13th or 14th century, Scotland banned golf because the pride of the Army was lacking audience at the reverend artillery games. The artillery of the times, the bow and arrow.

The use of the bow and arrow is now said 64,000 years ago....

Odysseus and the 12 axe heads. Said was a given space between. Set properly, a possibility, but trajectory so important.


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## revdebz

*Missing the Mark*



longbowguy said:


> See wikpedia.org and do a simple google search; there is lots of information there. But for general interest it seems to most often be interpreted as missing the mark or falling short of the mark, as in archery. Oddly, it is the Greek word that was later translated as 'sin.' That seems a little harsh to me, but clergy have often been awfully intolerant, to my way of thinking. And they sometimes bend plain speaking or thinking to their particular views. Me, I favor tolerance of the other fellow's ideas and way of speaking.


The term was actually popularized by Aristotle (who was not clergy) to indicate a fatal flaw in one's character (which is commonly called sin). And, just to clarify, you said you "favor tolerance of the other fellow's ideas and way of speaking"? I am only asking since you have characterized clergy (in general, not a specific clergyperson) as "harsh...awfully intolerant, bend[ing] plain speaking or thinking to their particular views."

Seems you might be "missing the mark" on what tolerance means, especially in your assessment of clergy. 

The point being made about sin by using the example of archery is that, if your bull's-eye is the will of God and you are aiming for the will of God (your choice whether you want to aim for it or not,) any miss of the bull's-eye, no matter how slight, is a miss of the will of God. The intent is not to shame someone but to encourage them to keep their eye on the target and aim carefully.


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