# Why isnt the ASA active in the northeast ??



## bowman_77 (May 4, 2009)

I read a post on here a week or two about this same topic and a lot of the replys said that there wasnt a big turn out to the events. I dont know for sure, its just what I read on the thread.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

low turn out of shooters you are beating a dead horse


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

You'll just hafta travel to one to see what it's all about! Mathewslive.com is showing this proam this week. I know you are going to say it is far but people travel from all over to shoot these.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

IBO shooters are all about speed. They do not want to slow there bow down and attend a archery event that has a level playing field. If you ever shoot a ASA ProAm you will more than likely not want to shoot any more IBO events. Here are the differences

ASA well organized
ASA has a set standard of targets that will always be used at each ProAm so yo don't Hans to guess what targets you are going to shoot at.
Level playing field 280fps
You can not shoot with you friends so your chances of getting pencil whipped greatly decrease compared to the good ol boy IBO events.
Easy walking
Range Official on every range constantly watching everyone
Great Payout
there are a few more postives for the ASA but I can't think of them right now. But you will never change the IBO shooters mind set until they shoot a ASA event and most of them won't change so ASA in the North will be a hard sale! Maybe one day in the future people will wise up and we will one day have one organization for all 3D and I hope it is setup like the ASA!


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## ArrowStar1 (Jun 10, 2008)

I shot the London KY ASA 2 weeks ago and shot the Erie,PA IBO last weekend. I would guess the ASA shoot had as many or more shooters than the IBO shoot. I really liked the format of the ASA shoot and it is very shooter friendly, had a great time. I especially liked the assigned shooting times and NO STANDING IN LINE FOR 2 HOURS TO SHOOT THE FIRST TARGET. Almost everyone that I have talked to that has shot an ASA shoot preferrs them over all others, and I agree.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I agree, ASA is much better!


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## tkasten (Jul 16, 2006)

*ASA or IBO*

ArrowStarI - I also shot both the London, Kentucky ASA Pro/Am and the Erie National IBO. You forgot to mention the following: At the ASA I was forced to be there for the entire weekend. I could only shoot 20 targets Sat. and 20 targets Sun. Each day it took over 4.5 hours to shoot 20 targets. In that time we would move about 10 yrds over and sit on our stools again. I really missed walking through the woods. When we finished shooting at a target we couldn't even go and get our arrows until the groups on either side of us were also done. That's because the targets and shooting stakes were so close together. At the practice range it was like combat archery. 7 & 8 shooters deep. Not fun! At Erie IBO I chose to shoot all 40 targets on Friday and went home on Sat. morning. IBO's schedule at the national shoots is much more fexible. ASA Level playing field is not so level any more. Most new bows are very fast and shoot very well. Most bowhunters don't want to slow down a new bow that they bought for the speed in the first place. At the Kentucky ASA most of the bowhunter class shooters I saw slowed there bows down by using spot arrows like X-Jammer 27's with heavy points. This gives them a very big (no pun intended) advantage. So I like shooting both events but must say I enjoy the more individual approach of IBO.


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## Elwood Hoyt (Jun 18, 2010)

I would like to know what size farm animals ass the IBO board had theyre heads stuck in when they came up with that Start rule. Waiting 2 hours to shoot? Clearly the board must be made up of all Mathews shooters. The most idiotic rule ever in Archery tourneys , way over allowing LRFs and known distance 3D even.


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## ArrowStar1 (Jun 10, 2008)

tkasten:
What about everyone in you class shooting at the same time under the same conditions?
Ever hear guys at an IBO shoot telling their buddies about a certain few targets to watch out for? Or telling them what they shot a particular target for? This cant happen at an ASA shoot.
You shot Friday at Erie under ideal conditions, some of us had to shoot Sunday morning in the rain and fog. You tell me whats fair. 
Not trying to start anything, just my observations.


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## jjgsp (Sep 6, 2002)

Pinwheel had a ASA triple shoot in the Northeast. He dropped it . Maybe he can tell why.


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## BigBucks125 (Jun 22, 2006)

I dont think there is an ASA director in New York. Not sure about PA? Someone could easily become a director and set up a state shoot, but as for gettin a national ASA up here...I wouldn't count on it. Would I like to see it...you bet your arsse I would.


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## tkasten (Jul 16, 2006)

*ASA in New York*

arrowstarI - good point. I really didn't give any thought to fairness as it comes to shooting times and conditions. You're right the weather was so nice at Erie on Friday we shot all 40 to avoid possible rain on the weekend. Not so fair to those that had to shoot on the weekend.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*Good Statement*



ArrowStar1 said:


> tkasten:
> What about everyone in you class shooting at the same time under the same conditions?
> Ever hear guys at an IBO shoot telling their buddies about a certain few targets to watch out for? Or telling them what they shot a particular target for? This cant happen at an ASA shoot.
> You shot Friday at Erie under ideal conditions, some of us had to shoot Sunday morning in the rain and fog. You tell me whats fair.
> Not trying to start anything, just my observations.



I have to agree forgot about that. Maybe the IBO should just be for bowhunter only like the Letters IBO stands for. Do away with all long stabs, dial pins and lens. Leave all this to the ASA. By the way I don't recall BowHunters using long Open setups !!! Don't give me to hard of a time but think about it does make common sense!


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

How does the knwon and unknown yardage work in ASA? Are different classes marked and unmarked or does it go by which shoot you are at shoot?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

x-force hunter said:


> How does the knwon and unknown yardage work in ASA? Are different classes marked and unmarked or does it go by which shoot you are at shoot?


All pro/ams have the same classes. It depends on the class on if you shoot any known distance. Open-a, semipro, and all pro classes shoot unkown both rounds. Open b, open c, and hunter shoot on day unknown one day known. Then classes like the known 45, known 50, and bow novice shoot all known distances. If you shoot half and half you shoot lower 12 on unkown and upper 12 on known days. If you shoot all unknown it's lower 12 both days. The known classes shoot upper one day and lower the other day. Now there alot more classes, like the womens and youth, but this is kinda an idea. Asaarchery.com has the proam rules. 

Most state/federations shoots do half and half, but there again that is up to the state.


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

My club in Maryland hosted ASA state qualifiers and championships for 2 years several years back. We never had more than 20 shooters in all classes and dropped ASA club membership and shoots due to lack of interest. 

Delaware has been holding ASA state championships for the past 5-6 years and they don't get 20 shooters in all classes. 

ASA held a Pro-Am in Pennsylvania several years ago and it was the lowest turnout of any Pro-Am held.

It's not like ASA events haven't been held north of the Mason-Dixon line. They have, there just isn't near the amount much interest or participation in the North as there is in the South.

Having shot IBO for 20 years and ASA Pro-Ams in the past for 3 years I definately think ASA events are much better organized and the pay outs are much better than IBO.

What many who are used to shooting IBO 3D events or similar formats don't particularily care for are many of the ASA rules which are unique to ASA and don't align with IBO, NFAA or NAA. 

Many don't like the 280 +- 3% speed restriction. Even NFAA which is predominately field has a 300 fps rule.

Lots of our HC shooters don't particularily like the ASA HC equipment rules - magnification and back stabs allowed.

Many who are used to IBO course layouts don't like the close targets/stake setups and being able to see the next target before your on the stake. I prefer to see some country when shooting 3D not walk 15-20 yards shoot, walk 15-20 yards sit, wait, shoot, repeat for the rest of the targets. I've seen lots of counting steps, look across at targets for yardages when pulling arrows and other cheating methods used in ASA. Not saying forms of cheating doesn't happen in other organizations also but I haven't seen as many yardage cheating instances in IBO as I have in ASA.

I don't like the position of the 12 rings. All other organizations and targets use a center X. It seems odd to purposly aim away from the center in order to score higher. No hunter in their right mind would shoot an animal where the 14 ring is on ASA targets so why have it there?

Myself and many of the people I shoot with don't like the fact that 1/2 of the ASA courses are shot at known distances for open B and below. Half the skill in 3D is being able to accurately judge yardage. If we wanted to shoot known distance targets we'd shoot field or fita.

Personally think IBO and similar formats has been in place to long in the North for ASA to get a foot hold. History seems to have proven this.


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## snuffer358 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Asa*

We shot an asa tournament in battlecreek michigan the turn out was around 500 shooters for all the classes went there 2 years haven't gone back the average turn out in the south is around 1500 shooters i shot one ibo did not care for it but everybody has their preference i like asa better dont have to worry about getting pencil whipped


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## IBO Shooter (Mar 29, 2010)

*Asa*

YRhinefield - Very well said!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Why isnt the ASA active in the northeast ?? 

Illinois here. I think it's the same for any organization, you have to have shooters. I don't of any IBO clubs around my area, but ASA and NFAA clubs exist. None of these organizations have great turn outs, be it Qualifiers or State Championships. The NFAA doesn't have a lot to offer. You shuck out $25 for a Championship (2 events are required 2 day events) and if you win you get a medal, maybe a plaque and a pat on the back. ASA charges the same $25 for a Qualifier or the State Championship (both one day events, but held Sat and Sun so everyone can get there) and if you win you get a belt buckle or something and then a big chunk of the purse for your class - all of it if not enough shooters in class. Figure they don't break into percentage pay until after the 6th shooter, if 6 shooters in class and you win, $60.00. So you at least get your entry fee money back and another $35.00.

I've shot both the NFAA and ASA and I'll go with the ASA everytime.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Elwood Hoyt said:


> I would like to know what size farm animals ass the IBO board had theyre heads stuck in when they came up with that Start rule. Waiting 2 hours to shoot? Clearly the board must be made up of all Mathews shooters. The most idiotic rule ever in Archery tourneys , way over allowing LRFs and known distance 3D even.


such words of wisdom/:thumbs_do


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

This seems to always be the typical ibo shooter response:thumbs_do



YRhinefield said:


> My club in Maryland hosted ASA state qualifiers and championships for 2 years several years back. We never had more than 20 shooters in all classes and dropped ASA club membership and shoots due to lack of interest.
> 
> Delaware has been holding ASA state championships for the past 5-6 years and they don't get 20 shooters in all classes.
> 
> ...


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Like I said leave the IBO to bowhunters only and leave ASA to the target archers. Increase the number of ASA shoots with large company sponsorship and TV coverage on YouTube like the world archery cup and watch attendance increase!


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Your responses (which I'm well aware of) are indicitive of why many people don't like or participate in 3D events in general. Over the years the format of 3D has changed from what was started and intended by IBO to be a HUNTERS format into strictly a TARGET format.

Seeing ASA bow novice class shooters wearing manufacturers shirts plastered by sponsors is proof enough.

Like I stated I shot ASA Pro-Ams for 3 years and also state ASA qualifiers and championships. There are some things I like about ASA and there are some things I don't care for. Same can be said about IBO, NFAA and NAA.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*ASA in New England*

*We should really get this up here.*


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Asa*

We have both ASA, and IBO here in Michigan. ASA averages around 40-45 shooters for there shoots. IBO for the triple crown averages 140-150


I think if they would push pro/am close to the IBO region they would develop a following. 
ASA- closest shoot is 7hrs London than Metropolis 8-9hrs, from Michigan 

IBO is 4.5 pa, 5 oh, 5.5 in, NY 6-7 hrs.from Michigan


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Thats what I am talking about....*

It seems as though all of the bigger ASA events are farther away than anything else, I would like to see a set of events for the Northeastern Region as well. The information I hear regarding the shoot formats and payouts of the ASA versus what I know from experience of the IBO and its history of payouts is a huge difference and a potentially better format. I am really interested in shooting some ASA tournaments. I have to also mention that the turnouts have not been so hot for the IBO shoots this season....nor the local shoots. I think perhaps the economy has put a serious damper on things.


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## whitetail101 (Aug 10, 2007)

There are two reasons I don't shoot ASA events anymore. The first reason is related to the speed limit. With todays high speed, high performance bows it is very hard to find an arrow combination that will still spine coreectly and be heavy enough to stay under 288 fps max. IMO speed has nothing to do with how well you shoot, the shooter still needs to judge the distance accurately.

The second reason is that 98% of the ASA are in the south. With gas prices the way they are it can be very expensive traveling to these shoots. For me it is hard enough to spend gas on hunting trips without having the added expense of traveling to the southern shoots.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

YRhinefield said:


> WDMJR3DBOWGUY
> 
> Your responses (which I'm well aware of) are indicitive of why many people don't like or participate in 3D events in general. Over the years the format of 3D has changed from what was started and intended by IBO to be a HUNTERS format into strictly a TARGET format.
> 
> ...


Well the guys wearing shooter shirts with companies names on them are doing so for contingency money. As far as it being more like a target game and not a hunting practice, you are correct. But that is what it is evolved to, I don't shoot 3d with a hunting bow nor do 90% of the guys I know. We all use an open rig because to us it is a target game.


The whole thing about Asa being so far to go to is for everyone not only you northern guys. Yes ibo has a stc in my home state, but it is 6-7 hours away and from what I'm told and have seen is nothing more then a trumped up club shoot.


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## Diamond_Archer (Apr 8, 2010)

I would love to see some ASA shoots up here in say New York. I hear great things about them but they are just too far for me to get there.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

the ASA is home based in Georgia, and their shoots are within a short days drive from base...the Illinois shoot may be their furthest...the "World Archery Tour" is attempting to get a tournament series going in the north...we'll see how that progresses.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*I see 46 people plus the unsures that are ready.*

*We are ready for a change.....lets get together and try to institute some sort of movement for the cause of getting the ASA shoots closer to home for us as well. I am all for it. This is not about north vs south....or east vs west.... this is all about archery for all of us.*


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

STUDENT-ARCHER said:


> the ASA is home based in Georgia, and their shoots are within a short days drive from base...the Illinois shoot may be their furthest...the "World Archery Tour" is attempting to get a tournament series going in the north...we'll see how that progresses.


The Illinois shoot is no where near the farthest from the Office. 
estimate: kennesaw, ga to metropolis ill est travel - 6hrs
Kennesaw Ga to Paris, Tx est travel - 11 hrs


Just sayin'


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

V.A.S.A said:


> *We are ready for a change.....lets get together and try to institute some sort of movement for the cause of getting the ASA shoots closer to home for us as well. I am all for it. This is not about north vs south....or east vs west.... this is all about archery for all of us.*


Your biggest problem is the area shooters, most seem to have no interest in using a heavier arrow to make it asa legal. One of our local shoots has a bowhunter-open class...no speed limit and yet 2-3 guys shoot it same guys week in and week out. Once you can get it through their skulls that a heavier arrow is more forgiving and accurate, then maybe they will be willing. Also if you are interested in shooting the proams why not travel to them, get some buddies who are interested split the travel costs and hit the road.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Travel...*



WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Your biggest problem is the area shooters, most seem to have no interest in using a heavier arrow to make it asa legal. One of our local shoots has a bowhunter-open class...no speed limit and yet 2-3 guys shoot it same guys week in and week out. Once you can get it through their skulls that a heavier arrow is more forgiving and accurate, then maybe they will be willing. Also if you are interested in shooting the proams why not travel to them, get some buddies who are interested split the travel costs and hit the road.




*In case you havent noticed...the economy has pretty much tanked. I didnt post the thread to take a vote to see how many of my friends or buddies wanted to make road trips....I was looking to find a more economic way to get to the shoots by bringing them closer to home. The speed guys can have their speed....I really dont care..to each his own. I for one would like to have a more diverse range of archery opportunities in the Northeast. Thanks though for the input...even though it is the opposite of what I am looking for. I love to shoot the NFAA nationals etc....But I am not travelling to Darrington WA just to shoot it. When it comes closer I will be there.:smile:*


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Well I think it will be a long time before Mike T. takes the asa back north-east again. It is a business, and as a business man he has to go where he can break even. Less then a thousand shooters, or even less than eight hundred will not get that done. Yes it is a shame that you guys miss out, I've had to miss out this year because of the distance. Economy hasnt made it easier for anyone, but people still make it. Maybe you should relocate...:darkbeer:


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## tkasten (Jul 16, 2006)

*ASA in Northeast*

Michigan has a new ASA rep that has a shoot going each weekend somewhere in the state. We have 3 left for a total of 14 outdoor ASA's. We are lucky in that respect. The only problem is each shoot is only ave. 35 to 40 shooters. Maybe it will grow. I like having many dif. types of tournaments in our state. It's all archery and that's great!


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## Oregonbowguy (Feb 17, 2009)

Just be thankful you don't live in the Northwest....Target archery...what is that . I can probably count on one hand the sanctioned target archery shoots in my state.....State NFAA Field, State NFAA Indoor/spots. One IBO triple Crown shoot....thats it.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

snuffer358 said:


> We shot an asa tournament in battlecreek michigan the turn out was around 500 shooters for all the classes went there 2 years haven't gone back the average turn out in the south is around 1500 shooters i shot one ibo did not care for it but everybody has their preference i like asa better dont have to worry about getting pencil whipped


The turnout in Michigan was so low because the Southern shooters would not travel North to support it. And don't give me that BS about getting pencil whipped at the IBO shoots only. I have had that happen r*epeatedly* at *ASA* events and at NFAA shoots too. 
I do prefer the scoring system and the shot gun start system of the ASA to the IBO. I prefer the course set up of the IBO to ASA. It replicates hunting scenarios way better than ASA 'shooter friendly' walk on manicured pathways courses do.
Someone mentioned the 'good old boy' IBO on this thread. Well the ASA is exactly the same way. The IBO 'busts' groups. That is not a perfect system - yet it does at least address the concern.
All of that being said I still love shooting any and all archery events. I have even accepted the foibles of the various organizations. 
To answer the OP's question, my bet is that ASA doesn't really care about you because it is a 'profit motivated' organization. They saw limited or no profit in being in Michigan and bailed after only a couple of years. We do have a loyal ASA state level following here in Michigan. Most shooters here shoot IBO and club level stuff though. The 'inter organizational rivalry' crap between IBO and ASA has driven a lot of shooters away from the sport. It's too bad. The IBO and ASA did it to themselves though. The constant bickering about the 'rival' organization at which ever shoot needs to stop. I hear that at both organizations events at the national and the state level. That nonsense has carried on for the 20 years or so that I have been shooting tournaments.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

ASA is a business which it should be that way it is organized and ran correctly at each Pro Am becuase if it wasn't the turn out would be low. I and many archers would be considered target archers we use equipment that would never be used for hunting and really don't care if the targets are setup in hunting situations. The ASA is not going to go where they are not profitable. Until only one governing body exist for competive 3D archery then this debate will always go on. To me the IBO is setup like a hobby sport and the ASA feels more like a professional organization just my opinion. Maybe the IBO should just have bowhunter only classes like the title states International Bowhunters Organization! Maybe if the IBO and ASA would come up with a standard for all shoots like speed and shotgun starting times the sport would flourish in more areas. I would love to see the ASA in the North, and Midwest take one of the Georgia shoots and put it in Pennsylvania or Michigan. Just my opinion and ideas don't rake me through the coals!!


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

*why so few shooters?*

I would like to get the answer correct to the question of why bowhunters don't shoot 3d. Where I live we have between 150,000 and 250,000 bowhunters in a 5 county area and can't get 50 of them to attend any type of 3d archery event other than charity for fallen archers events. And then it may be 200, of which about 100 will be new competitors. After those events we don't see the shooters/bowhunters at any other shoots. The numbers indicate that the archery organizations are not asking the right questions of the right people to get the answer that the other struggling sports asked prior to their success. An example is Nascar - drive fast and turn left. Another is pro football. It was considered a joke when I was a little kid. I remember hearing tv guys say, "It'll never take off. College ball will always be bigger and better." Hockey is another and so is soccer.
We have way more bowhunters than people in any of the sports I've mentioned in Michigan. All of those sports answered the same question prior to becoming the events they now are. So why not archery?


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## tkasten (Jul 16, 2006)

*ASA in Northeast*

We have enjoyed large turnouts for our 1st of each month 3D shoots at TCA in East Michigan (Caro). 200 shooters pretty regular and sometimes as high as 300. These are 99% bowhunters. As a rule they do not attend many competitive archery tournaments. I agree that maybe we are not asking the right questions to see how to get more involved.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I will compare it to golf or any other sport that has a set course and rules. When you play golf you know before you start there will be eight holes with par 3's 4's and 5's. 3D archery on a local level have ranges from 15 targets to 50 and every known target in the world to shoot at. If competitive 3D archery would have one ruling body a set course with only particular targets to shoot at like the ASA then I would say it would peak more interest. I like to shoot ASA tournaments but you can't find a range that has the targets they use. It would be like practicing golf with plastic flubs and balls then trying to compete at a national event. There has to be a set of national standards for ranges to follow and following these rules would get them big discounts on targets and if the sport grew enogh maybe profit sharing at large events their area. It has to be universal to work correctly you don't see the US soccer team playing on small fields and then try to compete in the world cup on a standard size soccer field do you?


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

I am not in the NE, I am in GA so I am fortunate to be within reasonable driving range of numerous ASA events. When I first started a few years back, I thought the speed limit was crazy, since I had a bow that would go over 300 fps, why have to turn it down ? I have since come to appreciate the level playing field the speed limit offers for everyone from 25" draw length through the monkey armed.

The biggest complaint we usually see about the ASA events from those in IBO territory, or those who are hunters just starting 3D, is the requirement to "slow down" their bows. (Of course, many just assume their bows are that fast because they believe the advertised speed is what they're getting, but that is another thread.) 

I wonder if the ASA could get some of the "speed" guys to come out if they had a "No Speed Limit" class, similar to the "test events" they have done with crossbows this year ? They would likely have to limit it to fixed pins, maybe even no lens and short stabs to eliminate the other "unfairness" complaints that might come up. Maybe test this out at the more "northern" events like Kentucky and Metropolis, where the ASA and IBO areas have more overlap ??

I would bet that most of those that decided they liked the ASA format would end up getting a "slower" target bow and moving to a different class in a year or two, just like most of us who thought the speed limit was crazy when we started.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

dgmeadows said:


> I am not in the NE, I am in GA so I am fortunate to be within reasonable driving range of numerous ASA events. When I first started a few years back, I thought the speed limit was crazy, since I had a bow that would go over 300 fps, why have to turn it down ? I have since come to appreciate the level playing field the speed limit offers for everyone from 25" draw length through the monkey armed.
> 
> The biggest complaint we usually see about the ASA events from those in IBO territory, or those who are hunters just starting 3D, is the requirement to "slow down" their bows. (Of course, many just assume their bows are that fast because they believe the advertised speed is what they're getting, but that is another thread.)
> 
> ...


Michigan has an outlaw class for that. it usually has relatively good numbers.


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## tkasten (Jul 16, 2006)

*ASA in the NE*

If you do try an Outlaw class in the NE I would strongly encourage you to keep it only for the bowhunters (no limit speed, fixed pins, no mag. & 12" stab.) Michigan's Outlaw class allows anyone to shoot no matter what gear. So some of the Open A folks shoot Outlaw because $15 goes into the pot instead of $10. (don't have to send ASA their $5 for outlaw shooters). Michigan's ASA shoots ave. 35 to 40 shooters. Outlaw class can have as low as 1 shooter and as high as 12 (that shoot only had a total of 25 shooters and 12 were in the outlaw class). We really can't say that the Outlaw class is working. On the other hand the Rhinhart 100 comes to Saginaw, MI and draws over 500 shooters. Many of them pay $45 - $50 to shoot both days. Perhaps if shoots were more interesting somehow more would come.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

tkasten said:


> If you do try an Outlaw class in the NE I would strongly encourage you to keep it only for the bowhunters (no limit speed, fixed pins, no mag. & 12" stab.) Michigan's Outlaw class allows anyone to shoot no matter what gear. So some of the Open A folks shoot Outlaw because $15 goes into the pot instead of $10. (don't have to send ASA their $5 for outlaw shooters). Michigan's ASA shoots ave. 35 to 40 shooters. Outlaw class can have as low as 1 shooter and as high as 12 (that shoot only had a total of 25 shooters and 12 were in the outlaw class). We really can't say that the Outlaw class is working. On the other hand the Rhinhart 100 comes to Saginaw, MI and draws over 500 shooters. Many of them pay $45 - $50 to shoot both days. Perhaps if shoots were more interesting somehow more would come.


Some of those Open A guys are IBO shooters too and like only having to set up one target bow instead of 2. At least that is what they told me.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> I would like to get the answer correct to the question of why bowhunters don't shoot 3d. Where I live we have between 150,000 and 250,000 bowhunters in a 5 county area and can't get 50 of them to attend any type of 3d archery event other than charity for fallen archers events. And then it may be 200, of which about 100 will be new competitors. After those events we don't see the shooters/bowhunters at any other shoots. The numbers indicate that the archery organizations are not asking the right questions of the right people to get the answer that the other struggling sports asked prior to their success. An example is Nascar - drive fast and turn left. Another is pro football. It was considered a joke when I was a little kid. I remember hearing tv guys say, "It'll never take off. College ball will always be bigger and better." Hockey is another and so is soccer.
> We have way more bowhunters than people in any of the sports I've mentioned in Michigan. All of those sports answered the same question prior to becoming the events they now are. So why not archery?



Its sounds like Michigan is doing a great job. 

You just gotta keep promoting ASA. My wife and I are the Texas ASA Directors. We run 14 state qualifiers and the state championship here in Texas. Actually we run the 9 north region events and state. We have area reps that run the 5 south region events. We have averaged 162 shooters per qualifier for 2010 in the north region of the state. We are expecting 300 to 400 shooters for the state championship. 

Here is how we do it. We go to every event and help the host club run the event. By doinbg this we can make sure the events are run consistantly, rules are enforced, and the paperwork is correct. We have our own Texas ASA website where we post shoot results, schedules and other info. We go to local club shoots and club meeting to help promote ASA. We will be going to other (Oklahoma and Arkansas) to show our support as we draw shooters from these states as well. In 2006 we had 6 ASA clubs in texas. As of today we have 25 with several others coming onboard in 2011. 

What we do takes a lot of our time and a lot of work. It makes it all worthwhile to see a full parking lot and 4 and 5 shooters on all 30 shooting stakes.

Here is our Texas ASA website:

www.texasasafederation.com


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Tallcatt said:


> Its sounds like Michigan is doing a great job.
> 
> You just gotta keep promoting ASA. My wife and I are the Texas ASA Directors. We run 14 state qualifiers and the state championship here in Texas. Actually we run the 9 north region events and state. We have area reps that run the 5 south region events. We have averaged 162 shooters per qualifier for 2010 in the north region of the state. We are expecting 300 to 400 shooters for the state championship.
> 
> ...


My questions are: 1) How many bowhunters are there in Texas? 2) What will it take for you to get 20% of those bowhunters to your shoots consistently? 3)What do the *non* shooters (the non participating bowhunters) need to see to make the decision to shoot ASA, IBO, 3d?


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> My questions are: 1) How many bowhunters are there in Texas? 2) What will it take for you to get 20% of those bowhunters to your shoots consistently? 3)What do the *non* shooters (the non participating bowhunters) need to see to make the decision to shoot ASA, IBO, 3d?




We have approximately 75,000 to 100,000 bowhunters statewide. If we could get 20% of that number to a shoot that would be 15,000 to 20,000 shooters. That of course would be the largest tournament ever held in the world and I am not sure what venue could support that. 

We try to promote ASA and recruit new shooters thru the local archery clubs and archery/bowhunting forums. I have always said 99.9% of our ASA 3D shooters are bowhunters. Now, if we could get all bowhunters to shoot 3D we would have all the shooters we could ever need or want. The fact is...a lot of bowhunters are just not interested in shooting 3D. 

We do what we can to make sure the shooters that show up have a great experience and come back. Since 2006 we have led the nation in attendance at ASA events at the state level. What we are doing is working. We are constantly implementing new ideas to keep our program consistent and fair for all shooters. 

There is no quick fix. It simply takes a lot of time, work and promotion.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Tallcatt said:


> We have approximately 75,000 to 100,000 bowhunters statewide. If we could get 20% of that number to a shoot that would be 15,000 to 20,000 shooters. That of course would be the largest tournament ever held in the world and I am not sure what venue could support that.
> 
> We try to promote ASA and recruit new shooters thru the local archery clubs and archery/bowhunting forums. I have always said 99.9% of our ASA 3D shooters are bowhunters. Now, if we could get all bowhunters to shoot 3D we would have all the shooters we could ever need or want. The fact is...a lot of bowhunters are just not interested in shooting 3D.
> 
> ...


I understand all of this. You are missing my point. What are we missing? What do we need to do differently? 
Come on Nascar, Hockey, Baseball, Football, Basketball, Soccer, Golf - golf? (Who even watches golf? )
So why not archery? We are missing something, pure and simple. How do I know this? 'cause 3D archery - especially with compound bows - is way more fun than these other sports!
Again I'll say it - if kids are exposed to 3D and allowed to pick between sports, their gonna pick 3D because they like it. If you guys get this sport into the high schools, junior high schools, and middle schools you'll get numbers like we are talking about. 
Ever watch a cross country race? Boring!!! I hate to say it, I was all-state in high school and ran 4 years of college cross. I taught and coached it at all levels too. I love running - but archery is way more fun! I would not have run had there been a 3D competition available as an option. I would have shot it instead. 
And you know what? I asked former team members both where I ran and at the places I coached about this. The numbers surprised me. They are: 65% of *my* former team mates shot at 5 3D targets set up outdoors. They used Genesis bows and TruBall trigger releases. Of this number virtually all said they would have shot 3D in a high school environment. Some of these guys already bowhunt and said "...hell yes!..." without even shooting the Genesis bow. I replicated this with young men and women I coached the last 2 years at our reunions and the numbers were even better. 74% of males and 62% of females said they would have shot 3D.
I asked them if the 3D season competed with their spring sports would they have chosen 3D over track or baseball? 90% of them said if given the choice they would have shot 3D. I got the idea to do this because I was shooting my competition bow and some of the kids saw it and asked about it. I did NOT plan that. You expose 3D to the other sports' athletes and watch what happens! 3D will sell itself.
If you guys at the upper management level would think out side of the archery box at your meetings you'll get it done! I have confidence in that. I know Dee is capable - and thinks that way. He did it with me at the Northern Regional the year I shot it. In 2 seconds he had a kind, complete, appropriate, compassionate, and *CREATIVE* solution to my late arrival which not only allowed me to warm up adequately, but compete too. I have since driven 3 hours to a state IBO event. Arrived late because they had published information wrong and been sent home instead of shooting. Do you think I ever went back there? Dee thought outside of the box and made a 3D shooter for life out of me! You show him this post and he'll remember this.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

*Not sure where this is going...*



Mac of Michigan said:


> I understand all of this. You are missing my point. What are we missing? What do we need to do differently?
> Come on Nascar, Hockey, Baseball, Football, Basketball, Soccer, Golf - golf? (Who even watches golf? )
> So why not archery? We are missing something, pure and simple. How do I know this? 'cause 3D archery - especially with compound bows - is way more fun than these other sports!
> Again I'll say it - if kids are exposed to 3D and allowed to pick between sports, their gonna pick 3D because they like it. If you guys get this sport into the high schools, junior high schools, and middle schools you'll get numbers like we are talking about.
> ...


Mac, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but what specifically are you suggesting ? Tallcats' analysis of the numbers is informative - it is likely not a realistic goal to have 20% of all bowhunters in a given state participating in organized 3-D. Do 20% of all golfers in any state compete in multiple organized events each year ? More closely related to archery - do 20% of all gun hunters participate in organized shooting events ? Probably not. Do 20% of any demographic group compete in organized football, baseball, etc ? (Maybe a couple of small town softball leagues or kid's leagues can boast that participation level, but not at a state level.)

I think the point of this post was to ask what would make the ASA want to come to northern areas, which then opened up the question of how to get the level of participation to a point that it would be worth the ASA's while to do it. Tallcat is suggesting that state level clubs invoke the ASA rules and structure - that way people do not deem the ASA "that southern competititon to IBO that won't let you use fast bows." If you develop an active "Federation" or club level using the ASA format, get the folks comfortable with it, get a good turn out at your ASA State Qualifiers and State Championship, then you have some demonstable evidence to show the ASA organization heads that there are people in X state who are ready to support an ASA Pro/Am event there.


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## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

*Slow down...*

Ok lets not get carried away with my organization is better than yours bs.

I have attended both and IBO and ASA both have good points.

A few years back Pete Lucas (Pinweel) ran a ASA North East Triple. I attended all these shoots Mass,NJ, and NY...where were all you guys then?

About 8 people in Open A shot all 3 shoots maybe 20 in Hunter.

I am a target archer and shoot ASA,IBO,NFAA and Fita. I love to shoot and compete period.

I may become the ASA North East rep soon, And hopefully you will see a ASA State shoot in NY next year stay tuned.:teeth:

Make no mistake speed doesn't scare north-easters as much as driving 800+ miles to every shoot.:mg:


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## Diamond_Archer (Apr 8, 2010)

Sweet. Where in NY do you think the shoot will be next year?


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

dgmeadows said:


> Mac, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but what specifically are you suggesting ? Tallcats' analysis of the numbers is informative - it is likely not a realistic goal to have 20% of all bowhunters in a given state participating in organized 3-D. Do 20% of all golfers in any state compete in multiple organized events each year ? More closely related to archery - do 20% of all gun hunters participate in organized shooting events ? Probably not. Do 20% of any demographic group compete in organized football, baseball, etc ? (Maybe a couple of small town softball leagues or kid's leagues can boast that participation level, but not at a state level.)
> 
> I think the point of this post was to ask what would make the ASA want to come to northern areas, which then opened up the question of how to get the level of participation to a point that it would be worth the ASA's while to do it. Tallcat is suggesting that state level clubs invoke the ASA rules and structure - that way people do not deem the ASA "that southern competititon to IBO that won't let you use fast bows." If you develop an active "Federation" or club level using the ASA format, get the folks comfortable with it, get a good turn out at your ASA State Qualifiers and State Championship, then you have some demonstable evidence to show the ASA organization heads that there are people in X state who are ready to support an ASA Pro/Am event there.


My intent here is to help people realize that the current thinking does not address that we get maybe 1 % to shoots, Right? Your suggestion is that 20% of bow and gun hunters don't compete. You're exactly right. Why not?
100% of them compete against live deer. What's different? Why don't they shoot 3D? What can be done to raise participation in 3D? They did it with the other sports why can't it be done with 3D? Don't minimize my attempt here. It is important to address this. If not it very well could be taken away from us. It gets frustrating 'cause it doesn't seem like anyone cares.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

damnyankee said:


> Ok lets not get carried away with my organization is better than yours bs.
> 
> I have attended both and IBO and ASA both have good points.
> 
> ...


I agree with ya I like all of it too.


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## skidooboy (Jun 1, 2010)

Mac of Michigan said:


> My intent here is to help people realize that the current thinking does not address that we get maybe 1 % to shoots, Right? Your suggestion is that 20% of bow and gun hunters don't compete. You're exactly right. Why not?
> 100% of them compete against live deer. What's different? Why don't they shoot 3D? What can be done to raise participation in 3D? They did it with the other sports why can't it be done with 3D? Don't minimize my attempt here. It is important to address this. If not it very well could be taken away from us. It gets frustrating 'cause it doesn't seem like anyone cares.



it is a different time. people are spread too thin time wise. they have kids that participate way too many activities not inc sports. then the wife/husband, family commitments. not to mention work, home maintainence, inc lawn and autos. all of these things pull at hunters, and they make choices to give up time now, for quality hunting time later. most people arent competitive in nature. and those that are... compete in EVERYTHING. 

most "hunters" have their own routines and practice areas at home or a friends, and dont "need" or want to shoot sanctioned or club shoots. 

if you want to generate more weekly club shooters, advertize EVERYWHERE. but, that isnt cost effective to most local clubs. maybe set up a reward program to get current shooters to bring new shooters with them. or offer buy one, get one half off. set up hunter only shoots. with no open class people to "scare" the avg non competitive shooter away. but you could do that at the cost of your current shooters. night time **** shoots in the warmer summer months are a great way to get more shooters out. for me, that is one of the funnest times i have shooting. but that is just me. 

it really is tough to say. just because we love to shoot and hunt, doesnt really mean you can get all hunters to participate in local 3d shooting. there is just not enough time in the day, for everyone to get everthing done they want to. and shooting 3d's in the summer or off season or even year round is just a luxury most choose not to induldge in. 

ski


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> My intent here is to help people realize that the current thinking does not address that we get maybe 1 % to shoots, Right? Your suggestion is that 20% of bow and gun hunters don't compete. You're exactly right. Why not?
> 100% of them compete against live deer. What's different? Why don't they shoot 3D? What can be done to raise participation in 3D? They did it with the other sports why can't it be done with 3D? Don't minimize my attempt here. It is important to address this. If not it very well could be taken away from us. It gets frustrating 'cause it doesn't seem like anyone cares.


I think the biggest issue with 3D is all the different organizations (some privately owned and proffit motivated) and different the rules of the organizations to deal with. The best thing that could happen to 3D as a whole would be to unify all 3D under ONE sanctioning and governing body. I won't hold my breath though that it will happen anytime soon.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

skidooboy said:


> it is a different time. people are spread too thin time wise. they have kids that participate way too many activities not inc sports. then the wife/husband, family commitments. not to mention work, home maintainence, inc lawn and autos. all of these things pull at hunters, and they make choices to give up time now, for quality hunting time later. most people arent competitive in nature. and those that are... compete in EVERYTHING.
> 
> most "hunters" have their own routines and practice areas at home or a friends, and dont "need" or want to shoot sanctioned or club shoots.
> 
> ...


I understand this too; same 24 hours in a day now that there was then! Same 'reasons' given back then. My question remains the same, what do we need to do that we are missing? You can't deny that Nascar, golf, NFL football and all the others did it. NASP is a good start - what about 3D archery though?


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

All other sports have universal rules that are followed and until 3D is governed by one set of rules that every that participates follows it will always be a endless battle that will never be won! If I shoot a 3D tournament in WV or Florida I want to know the rules are the same and the targets used will be the same! This is the only way it will ever happen!


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

cenochs said:


> All other sports have universal rules that are followed and until 3D is governed by one set of rules that every that participates follows it will always be a endless battle that will never be won! If I shoot a 3D tournament in WV or Florida I want to know the rules are the same and the targets used will be the same! This is the only way it will ever happen!


Not true! The distances in cross country vary radically from location to location and based on what time of year you run. At the college level, as an example,one weekend you may run a 5k race, the next a 10k race, and then start your league which is 5 miles. 
At the world and international levels physical contact rules differ as does distance. Granted - like 3d - at the specific race everyone runs the same course and lives by the same rules. But the rules do differ.
I am not trying to flame or troll here, rather I am just asking what you guys think can be done.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> I understand this too; same 24 hours in a day now that there was then! Same 'reasons' given back then. My question remains the same, what do we need to do that we are missing? You can't deny that Nascar, golf, NFL football and all the others did it. NASP is a good start - what about 3D archery though?


When you talk about Nascar, Golf, and NFL football you are talking about a very small number of elite competitors. These sports you mentioned have lots of FANS but few competitors. ASA has done a great job making archery more of a "spectator sport" with the Pressure Point Shootdown. Realistically its tough to make archery a spectator sport without a shootdown scenario. I mean....how many spectators can you physically get on a 3D range.

As I said above. Programs have to start at the local and state level. When ASA sees an outstanding state program then they may consider the area for a Pro/Am. ASA didn't come to Paris, Texas on a gamble. We had proven to them thru our state federation program (numbers of shooters) that we had developed a hot bed of ASA shooters. Oklahoma and Arkansas have watched our success and they now have up and coming ASA state programs.

Develop your state program. A wise old man told me "People don't care about how much you know...until you show them how much you care". 

You have got to have a leader that will show the shooters how much they care. Then the word gets out about how great the events are and the shooters will come. There ain't no easy fix....but there is a fix if you work at it.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*?*



Mac of Michigan said:


> Not true! The distances in cross country vary radically from location to location and based on what time of year you run. At the college level, as an example,one weekend you may run a 5k race, the next a 10k race, and then start your league which is 5 miles.
> At the world and international levels physical contact rules differ as does distance. Granted - like 3d - at the specific race everyone runs the same course and lives by the same rules. But the rules do differ.
> I am not trying to flame or troll here, rather I am just asking what you guys think can be done.



Ok I agree with you to a point but you can always dig and find a exception to the rule if you try hard enough. But organized sports such as baseball football soccer golf all have something in common they have set standards field size, equipment etc. With cross country you run and the courses change just like courses change in 3D archery and your distances that you run do change just like distances change for different classes. You missed the point if you went to one city to run and the course was in a park or city streets and then you went to another city and the race was in a swimming pool the standards would have changed and you would never no how to train if no standards where set and you would lose more competitors than you would gain. This is what I was trying to explain.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Hopefully.*



damnyankee said:


> Ok lets not get carried away with my organization is better than yours bs.
> 
> I have attended both and IBO and ASA both have good points.
> 
> ...




*Hopefully we will see an ASA shoot less than 800 miles away....Hopefully you will become the new ASA Rep..:shade:..I have emailed the current one....he doesnt even reply...:mg:....we need something. I am not sure why we dont have more shooters at the shoots. Perhaps everyone in the area should talk to the people at the Clifton park Sportsmens club..they seem to have 100 + at every shoot they host....whether it be a wed nite paper league..which I just shot and loved....or their 3D shoots, Clifton park has a great turnout. I want them to help my home club get a better attendance,...we need the good ole days....200 + and two day tourneys with good prizes and good fun. I miss the old campin out two and three day jamboree shoots....they were so much fun. I think now that we can see the good numbers here we can make a move and get something rolling. Lets do this. UNITED we can Make a Difference. Divided we are at square one. 

Lets do it.*


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Oh and speed VS accuracy,*

*I was taught at a young age in archery,,,A slow X is far better than a fast miss. You know alot of guys out there think that their bow is shooting 399 fps...and that 288 is ridiculous,,,,well let me tell you...I cleaned a couple of shoots with my hoyt ultra elite shooting 28" 425 gr. gold tip triple x arrows...they looked like they were going 350 fps....at 65 # well they were sure accurate....but theyb were only flopping in at 245 fps. They looked fast....and flat,,,but they were slow...and accurate. I will take slow and accurate over fast and missy anyday. Fast is good for hunting...but accurate is better, You can fast shoot a deer etc in the gut....yet I would rather slowly place one accurate shot in the kill. Just a point to think about....and hey.,,.if you think your bow is shooting 399 fps....at 27"dl and 60 #.....please chrono it. Then realize it is a normal bow shooting a good speed....probably around the 265 - 275 fps range. Slow and in the X. I like that.*


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

damnyankee said:


> Ok lets not get carried away with my organization is better than yours bs.
> 
> I have attended both and IBO and ASA both have good points.
> 
> ...


That'd be cool to have one in the area. I'd like to shoot one before I drive 12 hours to a big ASA event.


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## proXarchery (Apr 9, 2004)

we might try to put one on this year at mtb


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*That sounds great.*



proXarchery said:


> we might try to put one on this year at mtb


*Please be sure to hit all of us up with a flyer or email on the event. I think with some marketing this could really do well.*


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

Tallcatt said:


> When you talk about Nascar, Golf, and NFL football you are talking about a very small number of elite competitors. These sports you mentioned have lots of FANS but few competitors. ASA has done a great job making archery more of a "spectator sport" with the Pressure Point Shootdown. Realistically its tough to make archery a spectator sport without a shootdown scenario. I mean....how many spectators can you physically get on a 3D range.
> 
> As I said above. Programs have to start at the local and state level. When ASA sees an outstanding state program then they may consider the area for a Pro/Am. ASA didn't come to Paris, Texas on a gamble. We had proven to them thru our state federation program (numbers of shooters) that we had developed a hot bed of ASA shooters. Oklahoma and Arkansas have watched our success and they now have up and coming ASA state programs.
> 
> ...


Well said Mike.

Texas ASA didn't get to where it is today simply because we are in the "South", clubs and Directors had to work for it, and it has paid off in the end. I'm proud to say, Texas has an ASA Federation and presence, any State would envy. Others would do well to follow that example.

I can't help but sense there is a feeling out there that some think ASA should be big in their area simply because they want it to be... it takes more than wanting it, you have to make it happen. It takes a level of dedication I'm not sure many are willing or able to put forth.

Any of you current Directors or Club officers who feel the ASA is diminishing in your area... if you can find the time, come out and see a few of our State Qualifiers and especially our State shoot, take notes, see how the shoots are ran, guided and supported by our awesome Directors, Club officers, members & most importantly... our shooters.


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## Fdale's Finest (Oct 19, 2007)

Mac of Michigan said:


> I understand all of this. You are missing my point. What are we missing? What do we need to do differently?
> Come on Nascar, Hockey, Baseball, Football, Basketball, Soccer, Golf - golf? (Who even watches golf? )
> So why not archery? We are missing something, pure and simple. How do I know this? 'cause 3D archery - especially with compound bows - is way more fun than these other sports!
> Again I'll say it - if kids are exposed to 3D and allowed to pick between sports, their gonna pick 3D because they like it. If you guys get this sport into the high schools, junior high schools, and middle schools you'll get numbers like we are talking about.
> ...


This is spot on!

My brother is a gym teacher in a suburban NJ highschool and was able to get the Archery in School program approved for the phys ed curriulum. He has to turn away kids now as over 90 wanted to sign up this year in only the second year the school offered it! :mg:

Give a kid a bow and they will be hooked! It needs to be grass roots like what Mathews has done with the Genesis but they need to be higher qulity as I have never seen so much cam lean and strings deraililing as these bows. This is where the IBO and ASA could get involved if they truly want to grow the sport!

Many of these kids have since gone out and bought bows themselves!


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

Fdale's Finest said:


> This is spot on!
> 
> My brother is a gym teacher in a suburban NJ highschool and was able to get the Archery in School program approved for the phys ed curriulum. He has to turn away kids now as over 90 wanted to sign up this year in only the second year the school offered it! :mg:
> 
> ...


Easton is helping too. :thumbs_up

http://www.pitchengine.com/eastonfo...-hit-10-million-in-grants-and-programs/71016/


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Guys and gals....This is awesome.*

*I must say I am overwhelmed with a big smile when I read all of the positive posts on this subject. We are almost to 100 people on the want to make a difference poll......this is great.....thanks to all of you that have spoken your voices so far.*


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

v.a.s.a said:


> *i am very curious why we do not see asa shoots here in our area.  From what i hear the payouts are good..:thumbs_up..the shoots are alot of fun and they are a great archery tournament host. I really would like to see more opportunities closer to home for us in the northeast. Perhaps we should get a movement going to get them closer. I would love to participate and shoot the asa for a change of venue. The ibo shoots are plentiful enough....but a slightly different format would be nice too. Ill post a poll on this.
> 
> Thanks for reading.:thumbs_up*


*ttt:d*


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## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

The largest problem I see in this area, Is most clubs have targets with only IBO scoring rings. So getting clubs to buy inserts is a tuff task.


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## proXarchery (Apr 9, 2004)

we have them:angel::shade:


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## proXarchery (Apr 9, 2004)

we have them:angel::shade:


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

ive been shooting the ibo for 15 years gem city, worlds, and the whole triple crown a couple of times. i was aware of the asa but didnt want to do the drive. if there were asa shoots in the north east in that time period never heard of them. but now we have the internet, at that gets the word out. if the asa ever does come up here count me and my friends in because now we will now about it!


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