# NFAA Longbow rules?



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I emailed them to ask about the rules. I encouraged them not to limit it to split finger because they will lose numbers, but they still don't have the rules posted, that I can find. Anyone know? I wish they would be more inclusive on this so that a guy with a longbow and wood arrows could go shoot. The IFAA rules drive me nuts with the continuous arch rule. That takes out a lot as well.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

almost positive you can shoot 3 under finger must touch the nock through out the draw. I have a copy of the rules at home if it's different I will post it.
Gary


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Gary,
Will you send it to me? Can you shoot a reflex bow or does it have to be a D bow. I'd love the rules.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Go to NFAA web site then to Documents it shows the constitution and bylaws pg. 32. they need to clean up the site 
Gary


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

H. Traditional:
1. This style of shooting is for those who wish to compete with the Recurve or Longbow.
2. No device of any kind, including arrow rest, that can be used for sighting will be used or
attached to the archers’ equipment.
3. There shall be no device, mechanical or otherwise, in the sight window except the arrow
rest, arrow plate or plunger button.
4. No part of the rest or arrow plate may extend more than ¼ inch above the arrow.
5. No clickers, drawchecks or levels will be allowed. No laminations, marks or blemishes on
the face of the bow or in the sight window will be legal.
6. The string may be of any color but must have a single color center serving. One single
nocking point is permitted. One or two nock locators may be used. Brush buttons and string
silencers, properly placed may be used. Any other marks or string attachments will be
illegal.
7. One anchor point only is permitted.
8. The archer shall touch the arrow when nocked and drawing the arrow with the index finger
against the nock. Finger position may not be changed during competition. In the case of
physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers.
9. Gloves, tabs or fingers shall be the only legal releases. In the case of physical disability of
the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers.
10. All arrows shall be identical in length, weight, diameter and fletching with allowance for
wear and tear.
11. No stabilizer or counter balance may be used.
12. No written memorandum will be allowed.
13. Bow Slings are permissible.
14. During a round no adjustments may be made to the bow and/or its related equipment unless
equipment failure is recognized.
15. For all tournaments below the Sectional level, all traditional archers may shoot at Youth
distances.

Longbow:
1. A one piece straight ended bow of any material, which when strung displays one continued
unidirectional curve which is measured as follows: When the strung bow is placed with the
bowstring in a vertical position, the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on
the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved
further away from the bow grip. Tip reinforcing not exceeding ½” in height, as measured
from the surface of the bow limb and not exceeding 1 ½” in length as measured from the
limb tip.
2. The belly must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids.
3. The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf.
4. Only one nocking point is allowed on the string which may be marked by one or two
nocking point locators.
5. Nocks may be of any material and weight of pile.
6. One consistent anchor point must be used.
7. Participation in this style requires wooden arrows.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

there you go if you can understand the longbow part more power to you

Gary


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

2413gary said:


> there you go if you can understand the longbow part more power to you
> 
> Gary


guessing my Omega does not qualify as a long bow?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Sorry it doesn't, has to be a D-shape when strung, no hybrid shape.


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## Juood (Sep 11, 2012)

can i use my pvc bow? its D shaped j/k 


edit: jimmy i have been sitting here at work watching your videos all day while i run parts, Twin Oaks looks like such a great place! thanks for making them...


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

You are welcome to shoot reflexed longbows using three-under........in the trad class. 

Just messin'


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

Jeb-D. said:


> You are welcome to shoot reflexed longbows using three-under........in the trad class.
> 
> Just messin'


what class will that bow fall under? recurve? :noidea:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

NFAA Trad class... for recurve or longbows. The new longbow class is for just D-Shaped with wood arrows.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

The hard part in the rules it looks like there is only one division but there is a Trad recurve that any recurve or any longbow is legal. then the longbow division D shaped risers only hope this helps
Gary


rsarns said:


> NFAA Trad class... for recurve or longbows. The new longbow class is for just D-Shaped with wood arrows.


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## cubefx (May 8, 2012)

Do not want to hijack the tread, but I have a question. Will I be able to get in the Traditional category with my Titan (plunger and arrow rest, shooting three under)?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

yes you would be in the Trad recurve class
Gary


cubefx said:


> Do not want to hijack the tread, but I have a question. Will I be able to get in the Traditional category with my Titan (plunger and arrow rest, shooting three under)?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Yes.... even ILF metal risers with rests and plungers fall inot the NFAA Trad class, just no stab.


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

The only thing that really exclude a recurve from traditional is stabalizer, sight or if you string walk  or face walk.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I 'm workin on that stabilizer thing if it passes I'll be the most hated guy in the Trad recurve class. (I can live with it)
Gary


rsarns said:


> Yes.... even ILF metal risers with rests and plungers fall inot the NFAA Trad class, just no stab.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

What ticks me off is this: I discover 3 months after purchasing my top shelf hybrid RD Bushmen "American Native" Longbow that the rules have changed..to "D-Shaped Bows Only"...and i know this hadta blow for many others as this new rule discluded the likes of Centaurs, BamaBows, Omega's, Firefly, ACS/Dryad, Shrews and a host of others..or should i say?.."MOST"..of others..matter fact?..

"The Vast Majority"

of.."others"...and while it's a heck of a blow for the consumers who just dropped upwards of $1,000 on custom made longbows that they now can not use in the "longbow class"?..but...i can't imagine how Pi$$ed and upset the purveyors of such RD hybrids must still be..after all?..they're the ones who spent all their time and effort researching, developing and eating the co$t of tooling up to manufacture their high performace wares..that there now is no class for..leaving the majority of longbowyers and their patrons holding millions worth of goods rendered useless for anything that ends in the letters "FAA"...when the fact of the matter is if they had D-shape whiners badgering them about this?..they should've just created a "Hill Bow Class"...and not discluded the masses for the cries of the few..but it gets even better..cause now?..there's but a handful of longbowyers making what's being refered to as "Stealth Longbows"..which are basically RD Hybrids tillered in such a fashion that.."When Strung"?...but when they ain't?..they almost resemble a feaking recurve! :laugh:

and ya gotcher choice..FOX or 21st.....with less than a handful of others such as abotts and oh yeah..less us not forget..

ALL THE HILL BOWS!

and what Blows My Mind is two fold:

1. While they go through describing all the geometric hoopla of tangent points and "IMAGINARY" horizontal lines to define super strict limb curvature?..yet they seem to neglect any longbow centershot specs?...helllllooooOOO?...who's steering this rogue ship?

and?..

2. "SINCE MANY CENTURIES AGO"....bowyers gleened that longbows can and do yeild a higher level of performance by steam bending reflex/deflex in to the limbs..this rule has DEVOLVED us by MILLENIA...so now we hafta spend yet another grand to "sneak it in" via "stealth longbows"? I got two words for anything ending in the letters FAA...and they are not "Good Day".


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Jinks... Although I was in favor of a new class at the time. I am now of the belief as many here have stated... we have too many classes. This will also dilute the competition in the trad class. I am the owner of 15+ longbows, and only my hill style fits the category, I have many D-shaped, but they are takedowns. All the rest of my 1 piece are "hybrid". So be it. Now for the trad class, until Gary gets that stab thing changed... I am looking for a stab-a-quiver like he has... the hood will be of lead, and the brackets of steel... LOL


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Good grief, can't shoot your hybrid longbow in the longbow class - no wonder so many are turned off of (dis)orgainized tournament shooting.........hardly enough shooters at most events to even have a Trad class let alone break it up into little bitty classes. I say shoot what ever you want and tell them exactly where they can put the trophy. The shooters will know who won.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rsarns said:


> Jinks... Although I was in favor of a new class at the time. I am now of the belief as many here have stated... we have too many classes. This will also dilute the competition in the trad class. I am the owner of 15+ longbows, and only my hill style fits the category, I have many D-shaped, but they are takedowns. All the rest of my 1 piece are "hybrid". So be it. Now for the trad class, until Gary gets that stab thing changed... I am looking for a stab-a-quiver like he has... the hood will be of lead, and the brackets of steel... LOL


I agree about the "too many classes" thing Ren..(and no doubt brought about by numerous whiners)..but the rub for me is..why did this organization decide to take it upon themself to "Re-Define" the definition of a longbow that is extremely simplistic and has stood for ages?.."The String Don't Touch The Limbs When Strung"..period...and then "create a rule" (based on that "re-difinition") that would see the vast majority of expensive, late model, high performance longbows left home on the wall..with the thousands of longbowmen who own them left sitting home sipping coffee on tourney day muttering "screw anything FAA"..who's best intrests was served there?..anybody?

and now i'm hearing these deciding forces that be are vomiting up proposals such as "No Carbon Fiber Lams"?....and right about now?..i'm picturing that the dude making these decisions is some fat pompous dilweed with a strung broomstick who's pi$$ed that he just can't seem to win! :laugh:


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Center, so true. At a couple of the shoots this year for the State, I jumped to compound BH class because there were more shooters. I prefer shooting the recurve but shooting the fingers compound is still a blast. Normally there are only 3 of us that compete at the same level in trad, Danny C., Gerald Hickman and myself. They both shoot both Trad and BH, so since there was a lot more shooters in BH we all moved over to that class for the last couple state shoots. Looks like we will have a pretty big turnout in the BB class in Vegas this year.


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

I have a feeling stealth longbows _sound _cooler than they actually are. 

I think it can be hard to draw the line between recurve and RD longbows. For ex. At what point exactly does a RD longbow become a recurve? 
Seems there is some solid reasoning behind the rule, maybe the rule should be written for the layman and exclude words like 'tangent' and 'imaginary'.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> Good grief, can't shoot your hybrid longbow in the longbow class - no wonder so many are turned off of (dis)orgainized tournament shooting.........hardly enough shooters at most events to even have a Trad class let alone break it up into little bitty classes. I say shoot what ever you want and tell them exactly where they can put the trophy. The shooters will know who won.


Amen Trent! Preach It Brother! :thumbs_up:

I've got enough trophies from my fingers/compound days...i love to shoot just to shoot and meet other archers..but if those archers are so anal that they hafta keep dreaming up new rules and classes to stay on top?...my backyards looking better and better! :laugh:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

for all the guys with the R/D longbows - nothing is stopping you from shooting in the recurve class with that bow - many of the new R/D longbows perform just as well as recurves.

I don't really care either way and am not a longbow shooter - but I have shot Hill Longbows a few times and have shot the Tomahawk LB and the Viper longbow - and there is a HUGE difference in how the R/D longbows shoot compared to the Hill style longbows - so I can see why they should not be in the same class.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

guyver said:


> I have a feeling stealth longbows _sound _cooler than they actually are.
> 
> I think it can be hard to draw the line between recurve and RD longbows. For ex. At what point exactly does a RD longbow become a recurve?
> Seems there is some solid reasoning behind the rule, maybe the rule should be written for the layman and exclude words like 'tangent' and 'imaginary'.


It's not a hard line to draw at all guyver..it a hard fast definition that's stood for centuries upon centuries..very easy to understand..

Recurve: The string touches the limbs when strung.

Longbow: it doesn't.

and please...if you can?..share with me this "solid reasoning behind the rule"...the same one that seems to have no definition when it comes to one of the most important differences between a longbow and a recurve (besides limb curvature)...that being.."Centershot"...as now we can have a "recurve like/centershot longbow riser" but the limbs hafta be *D-shaped?

*(when strung)


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> and please...if you can?..share with me this "solid reasoning behind the rule"...


(I think) I can.

It is well known that RD longbows are on par with recurves concerning performance, so doesn't it make sense to put them in the same class? while having a class for primitive and Hill style for those that are at a (performance) disadvantage? 

Maybe they could add in the 1/8" outta center rule for you 

Also I think I have a recurve that, by your definition, is a longbow. My point is that it is hard to turn a grey matter black and white.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The key is that the new R/D longbows perform as well, or sometimes better than recurves - why would a guy with a R/D longbow want to shoot in a competition that is meant for D longbows is beyond me - oh - i know - they want an advantage


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

Can I shoot my recurve in the longbow class?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

guyver said:


> (I think) I can.
> 
> It is well known that RD longbows are on par with recurves concerning performance, so doesn't it make sense to put them in the same class? while having a class for primitive and Hill style for those that are at a (performance) disadvantage?
> 
> ...


well i think we're seeing things from different perspectives cause it seems to me that the only problem is they're the ones making a black and white matter..."grey"...and a tad on the fuzzy side...because now these guys that are shooting true hill style wooden longbows which barely have any centershot to them at all?..are gonna be up against guys shooting the likes of DAS DX5s and such and yeah..when it comes to speed?..yeah..more of it can be/is and advantage but..nothing like the vast difs they're are in the tuning and forgiveness qualities found in a centershot riser..which historically?..longbows never had (until recent)..but historically?..longbows HAVE HAD reflex/deflex for many centuries past..and waaaaaay before folks started cnc machining centershot longbow risers out of aluminum..but we won't address those serious advantages..just the limb curvature?..which btw..while the RD longbow limbs see some speed advantages?..the D-shape limbs see some "Torsional Stability" advantages..as we now enter 50 shades of grey! :laugh:

Nevertheless..."This Ruling"..has succeeded in leaving thousands (if not 10's of thousands) of late model longbows (which do meet the historical and proper definition of a longbow) home hanging on the wall on shoot day..and in many cases?..along with the archers who own them...and putting the crayolas to the side?..i call that a "Lose/Lose".


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

the rule has not left any bows hanging at home - they can still use those bows - just in a different class - the recurve class - oh - but that's right - nobody wants to move up in class - they only want to squeak by with as much of an equipment advantage as possible in the given class - right?

I love to shoot competetively but sometimes this stuff gets under my skin - different bows for each style of competition, trying to barely fit in a class so you have an advantage, etc.... - come on - this is supposed to be fun - not about winning and getting every advantage you can.

If I shot R/D longbow and wanted to compete in the NFAA and they did not allow it in the longbow class - I would just shoot in the recurve class - no big deal


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

centershot said:


> Good grief, can't shoot your hybrid longbow in the longbow class - no wonder so many are turned off of (dis)orgainized tournament shooting.........hardly enough shooters at most events to even have a Trad class let alone break it up into little bitty classes. I say shoot what ever you want and tell them exactly where they can put the trophy. The shooters will know who won.


I kind of understand it, but I think that if they really wanted to make a separate longbow class, they should have gone all out. Limit the grip to a basic locator, but not deep enough to be a pistol style that shoots like a recurve. Put a rule against excessive weight, (no steel rods inside), and no bow quivers or anything. Make it so that all of the things that make a typical long bow more difficult to shoot reliably are there. Some might argue, "That's not how I hunt." You can hunt any way they want. You can shoot in the trad class if you qualify, or whatever class fits your setup. It's a competition. If you want a class that serves a purpose, stick to the purpose. If you want to have a longbow that isn't much different than your typical trad recurve, why bother with the class?


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> the rule has not left any bows hanging at home - they can still use those bows - just in a different class - the recurve class - oh - but that's right - nobody wants to move up in class - they only want to squeak by with as much of an equipment advantage as possible in the given class - right?
> 
> I love to shoot competetively but sometimes this stuff gets under my skin - different bows for each style of competition, trying to barely fit in a class so you have an advantage, etc.... - come on - this is supposed to be fun - not about winning and getting every advantage you can.
> 
> If I shot R/D longbow and wanted to compete in the NFAA and they did not allow it in the longbow class - I would just shoot in the recurve class - no big deal


:thumbs_up


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Why would a guy with a R/D longbow want to shoot in a competition that is meant for D longbows is beyond me - oh - i know - they want an advantage


Don't we all 

Well, maybe not sometimes.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

isn't it funny - most of us in traditional are not into advantages - if we were - we would be shooting compounds with sights - it seems these types are only into advantages that will allow them to win some buckle or trophy - not quite good enough to do it with comounds against other comound guys, not good enough to do it with olympic bows, not quite good enough to do it with recurves - so lets try and sneak into the longbow class with a bow that shoots exactly like a recurve - whatever


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> isn't it funny - most of us in traditional are not into advantages - if we were - we would be shooting compounds with sights - it seems these types are only into advantages that will allow them to win some buckle or trophy - not quite good enough to do it with comounds against other comound guys, not good enough to do it with olympic bows, not quite good enough to do it with recurves - so lets try and sneak into the longbow class with a bow that shoots exactly like a recurve - whatever


Another great post OSB... you can't resist trying to call people names, o tell them how screwed up they are in your opinion. I did not see anyone wanting an advantage, just some that don't understand why they have a longbow they cannot use.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rsarns - really - why can't they use it - they can shoot in the recurve class - what is stopping them? - guess you missed that in your constant attempts to bash me


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Really, I think I mentioned that already. If you would just post your opinion regarding the OP's post, and leave the trash talking, you probably would not get "bashed".


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

The NFAA does not have a recurve class... its the Traditional class, and so states for those using recurves or longbows.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sharp...i agree that the RD longbows that have recurve like centershot risers for all inensive purposes should do well and fine shooting in the recurve class..but to me it's more the riser configs than limb curvature that offer up any advantages..unless you're only talking speed..and completely leaving forgiveness and shootability out of the equation...and you of all people should know this but if i know you?..you would contest it just for the sake of arguement...so tell ya what...stick a piece of 1/16th anything behind your strikeplate..then try to papertune for bullet holes..then come back and tell me..

1. if ya ever got the bullet holes and?..

2. if YOU would like to compete aginst other centershot recurves with your bow that way.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Define most SB, are you speaking for all of us now? I shoot a Fox Triple Crown flatbow, as does Larry Yien. Heavily R/D but forms a D when strung. These bows are specifically designed to push class limits as far as you can while still being in the rules. Does this make us worthy of your scathing attack? I've heard all this BS before in the UK when the Blackbrook bows started kicking arse. The old style AFB guys whined and moaned like sad old women, seems its the same here then.




QUOTE=sharpbroadhead;1065470232]isn't it funny - most of us in traditional are not into advantages - if we were - we would be shooting compounds with sights - it seems these types are only into advantages that will allow them to win some buckle or trophy - not quite good enough to do it with comounds against other comound guys, not good enough to do it with olympic bows, not quite good enough to do it with recurves - so lets try and sneak into the longbow class with a bow that shoots exactly like a recurve - whatever[/QUOTE]


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

most - ie: most traditional hunters shoot simple set ups - nothing fancy and most don't compete at all - so they could care less about all this stuff - I suppose you will disgree with that too!


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

This thread is about the longbow rules for 2013. So can I shoot my Fox Triple Crown or not?


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

It has nothing to do with traditional or hunters though SB. I am neither of those things but I shoot flatbows in tournaments so want to shoot the best I can with the most advantageous bow I can. Wasn't it you that said more "Trad" shooters should compete and hand scores in to see how good they can be, now your saying that you trad guys don't care.
As far as I know, the Fox will be legal still for this class Jim.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

So I can shoot the Fox with wood arrows and shoot 3 fingers under? Those rules are hard to really interpret. What I read is that when it's strung it can't have a "wave" in the lim. If it gets smaller and smaller from the grip to the limb tip you are okay. It doesn't say "D" bow like the Hill style bows. It also doesn't mention fingers on the string.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Jimmy you can shoot 3 under. AS long as it decreases when strung from grip to tip its ok.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy, I've got a 41 lb fox triple crown coming in December and if Paul Jalon can get me a sweet set of arrows made I'm going to be in Louisville stinking itup.....I bought a used Fox Triple Crown 50 lb 64" to hunt with and man is it sweet.

Hope all is well

Dewayne


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

It's the best made, best shooting longbow I've ever shot - period. Paul is making me up some arrows as well. Best longbow and the best arrowmaker - they deserve each other.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

The NFAA brought in Longbow and kept it close to IFAA rules I think because theyre hosting several IFAA world events in the next couple of years, it seems pointless to include all types of Longbows for shooters to only find the cannot fit into international IFAA tourneys. For most European members we keep our domestic rules as close to IFAA rules just to to confuse shooters.

IFAA has put a lot of proposals in, mostly to create two Longbow divs one modern allowing R/D and carbon arrows and a more Trad Longbow with glass only D shape when strung and wood arrows, a lot of IFAA Longbow shooters dont want this purely for not wanting to create yet another div, I have suggested just the one div but include R/D longbows and keep the wood arrows this will help keep the playing field even.




BarneySlayer said:


> If you want to have a longbow that isn't much different than your typical trad recurve, why bother with the class?


One of the reasons I think IFAA has kept the D shape rule for so long, why have a Bowhunter Rec div and Longbow div when all bows perform the same, I for the D shape but Im also for making Longbow more inclusive so if it takes a little R/D then so be it.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> What ticks me off is this: I discover 3 months after purchasing my top shelf hybrid RD Bushmen "American Native" Longbow that the rules have changed..to "D-Shaped Bows Only"


IFAA have had this D shape rule for as long as Ive been shooting international and NFAA Longbow is a new Div that just copied the basic IFAA format, when did this rule change happen for you? NFAA was newly created and no changes have occured as far as Im aware.


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

As Mr. Morley mentions, the point of NFAA's rule change is to get more in line with Europe. What makes this sensible is that longbows are much more popular in Europe, where at many large events there are more entrants in the longbow class than any other. Here in the US, longbow is generally the smallest class, so we cannot dictate to the world. Recall that NFAA dropped the longbow class altogether a few years ago, except for the marked 3D Championship in Redding. Prior to that the rule was much like this new one. I, for one am glad to have a longbow class back under most any terms, but prefer the return of D profile rule and wooden arrows, as that is the tackle I have always used. At local events I have always been willing to compete against anything the owner claimed was a longbow, and any arrows. Basically, I think the NFAA rule change, to match the rest of the world, makes sense for major championships. 

I also am glad that we have one remaining class that remains fairly close to the ancient tradition, including wooden arrows likely assembled by the competitor. If Oetzie the Iceman, King Henry the fifth, Robin Hood, Attila the Hun, King Tut, a Samurai, Ishi and Howard Hill showed up we could all exchange tackle and compete together on fair terms. Or go hunt. - lbg


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> This thread is about the longbow rules for 2013. So can I shoot my Fox Triple Crown or not?


I will let you


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I agree the rules are a bit "wordy" but the basic gist is the bow can't have reflex showing when strung. Look at several of the IFAA bows that are legal. D shape Hill style bows, mild R/D bows and all the variations of the stealth D bows. Those stealth D's allow a lot of latitude. At the IFAA Bowhunter Worlds I participated at in 2009 I saw several longbows that were dang near triangular shaped when strung. The limbs were pretty much straight from riser to tip and they were allowed because they didn't show reflex. They weren't Hills but they weren't reflexed looking hybrids. They were in the middle and that's cool. From a personal standpoint I think many of the really aggressive hybrids are overrated. The majority of heavily reflexed hybrids I've owned and shot only had a small increase in performance over milder designs and most of them had a distinct lack of vertical stability. I had several I could never really get to tune or shoot very well and that speed advantage is worthless when a bow is not forgiving. Just a personal opinion based on my experiences...

As far as thousands of people being excluded... I don't see it. Sure there are thousands of those bows out there. Are there thousands of longbow/ hybrid shooters who actually want to compete in a 300 round or a full Field course? Nope. The few people who actually want to shoot this class competitively will gravitate to the equipment the rules allow. Look at the the rule changes at the state level in the trad class for field archery. Many states adopted a 50 yard max as opposed to the full 80 yards shot on normal courses. The reasoning was it would attract more trad guys. Did it? Not really... there just aren't that many trad guys into the more formalized target style of archery. 

My personal take on competive archery is to just show up with the bow and arrow setup you feel most comfortable with and shoot whatever class the org puts you in. If you feel you're more competitve with a primitive bow than an ILF bow than rock it out and do the best you can. Win or lose you're having fun and you're using the equipment you feel is best in your hands. I don't get people complaining about others equipment if it's allowed per the rules as they made their choice and you made yours. If you don't like it, well... either change or get better. If I get time off work I may show up at Louisville to try my hand at the NFAA Indoors and if I do I'll be shooting the trad class with a longbow. It's what I shoot best and I know I can be competitive.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

_"My personal take on competive archery is to just show up with the bow and arrow setup you feel most comfortable with and shoot whatever class the org puts you in. If you feel you're more competitve with a primitive bow than an ILF bow than rock it out and do the best you can. Win or lose you're having fun and you're using the equipment you feel is best in your hands. I don't get people complaining about others equipment if it's allowed per the rules as they made their choice and you made yours. If you don't like it, well... either change or get better. If I get time off work I may show up at Louisville to try my hand at the NFAA Indoors and if I do I'll be shooting the trad class with a longbow. It's what I shoot best and I know I can be competitive." _

spot on


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

steve morley said:


> For most European members we keep our domestic rules as close to IFAA rules just to to confuse shooters.


Correction just not to confuse shooters. 

I would like to see the simpler WA3D rule (I think same rule used in IBO as well) used in IFAA where it just says string doesnt rest on limbs, for people to have to get a tape measure out to see if their bow fits IFAA rules is just too complex, keeping the rules simple and easy to understand I think more people will be inclined to shoot.

I have had an unofficial invite onto the IFAA Technical comittee to help sort these Longbow rules out, I accepted


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Doesn't Larry Yein shoot a fox in NFAA?


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

From a U.S perspective here is what I personally think is best for the sport and not someone's own agenda. There are a large number of U.S. longbow shooters that are interested in going to competitions, but we have to be careful about rules so that we don't exclude the bow they have. There is a small minority of guys that feel that the bow must be a Hill style bow cut to 1/8" out of center and must be shot split finger. A handful of those guys attend shoots. The others are just vocal internet users. 

In the U.S. we have to make sure that the rules will allow our core longbow shooters. I would say that the majority of those shooters pick up a Bear, 21st Century, Fox, Martin, Tomahawk, or something like that - the most common bows. None of those bows are radical. They are longbows but that are not D bows. Some of those guys shoot split but many shoot 3-under. If we make the rules exclude those bows then the guys won't buy a new bow to shoot the class, but many will come out to shoot what they have. We need to keep up with technology to a degree. Now, this doesn't mean a 3-piece takedown ILF necessarily. Also, not many bows are cut to 1/8" out of center anymore. We should want to grow the sport so I'm not a fan of forcing a guy to tune 1/8" out of center. Heck, most folks have enough problems tuning a center shot bow. 

It's easy to sit back and say show up with your bow and we'll put you in a class, but most of you don't field their complaints and comments. As an IBO Director I do. If a guy is interested in trying this tournament thing so he shows up at a shoot with his Tomahawk he bought from 3Rivers and you say, "You'll be shooting with those recurve guys because your bow isn't D style, he is not happy. Just because you disagree doesn't make him feel any better. He wants to shoot his legitimate longbow against other longbows. There certainly has to be a line somewhere but you have to put a lot of thought in where that line is drawn and do it in a way that truly benefits the sport and not any one or group of individuals. 

As for the Europeans, I am fully aware of their longbow numbers but they go around and around with these rules as well ie. 3-under or split. How many of them can fly over for a shoot and how many Americans are traveling back and forth for shoots? Going from Germany to France to shoot is like going from Tennessee to Louisiana. Of course Europe has to cooperate. I'm not saying we ignore the IFAA rules at all, but if we ant longbow shooters in the U.S. we have to focus on building our own base right now. I truly believe that longbow is fertile ground in the U.S. but we have to be smart about how we get the class to grow.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> I agree the rules are a bit "wordy" but the basic gist is the bow can't have reflex showing when strung. Look at several of the IFAA bows that are legal. D shape Hill style bows, mild R/D bows and all the variations of the stealth D bows. Those stealth D's allow a lot of latitude. At the IFAA Bowhunter Worlds I participated at in 2009 I saw several longbows that were dang near triangular shaped when strung. The limbs were pretty much straight from riser to tip and they were allowed because they didn't show reflex. They weren't Hills but they weren't reflexed looking hybrids. They were in the middle and that's cool. From a personal standpoint I think many of the really aggressive hybrids are overrated. The majority of heavily reflexed hybrids I've owned and shot only had a small increase in performance over milder designs and most of them had a distinct lack of vertical stability. I had several I could never really get to tune or shoot very well and that speed advantage is worthless when a bow is not forgiving. Just a personal opinion based on my experiences...
> 
> As far as thousands of people being excluded... I don't see it. Sure there are thousands of those bows out there. Are there thousands of longbow/ hybrid shooters who actually want to compete in a 300 round or a full Field course? Nope. The few people who actually want to shoot this class competitively will gravitate to the equipment the rules allow. Look at the the rule changes at the state level in the trad class for field archery. Many states adopted a 50 yard max as opposed to the full 80 yards shot on normal courses. The reasoning was it would attract more trad guys. Did it? Not really... there just aren't that many trad guys into the more formalized target style of archery.
> 
> My personal take on competive archery is to just show up with the bow and arrow setup you feel most comfortable with and shoot whatever class the org puts you in. If you feel you're more competitve with a primitive bow than an ILF bow than rock it out and do the best you can. Win or lose you're having fun and you're using the equipment you feel is best in your hands. I don't get people complaining about others equipment if it's allowed per the rules as they made their choice and you made yours. If you don't like it, well... either change or get better. If I get time off work I may show up at Louisville to try my hand at the NFAA Indoors and if I do I'll be shooting the trad class with a longbow. It's what I shoot best and I know I can be competitive.


It can't be put any more straightforward than your post, Str8. These threads would be a lot shorter if everyone would own up to what you just posted. Good stuff.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> From a U.S perspective here is what I personally think is best for the sport and not someone's own agenda. There are a large number of U.S. longbow shooters that are interested in going to competitions, *but we have to be careful about rules so that we don't exclude the bow they have.* There is a small minority of guys that feel that the bow must be a Hill style bow cut to 1/8" out of center and must be shot split finger. A handful of those guys attend shoots. The others are just vocal internet users.
> 
> *In the U.S. we have to make sure that the rules will allow our core longbow shooters.* I would say that the majority of those shooters pick up a Bear, 21st Century, Fox, Martin, Tomahawk, or something like that - the most common bows. None of those bows are radical. They are longbows but that are not D bows. Some of those guys shoot split but many shoot 3-under. If we make the rules exclude those bows then the guys won't buy a new bow to shoot the class, but many will come out to shoot what they have. *We need to keep up with technology to a degree. Now, this doesn't mean a 3-piece takedown ILF necessarily. Also, not many bows are cut to 1/8" out of center anymore. We should want to grow the sport so I'm not a fan of forcing a guy to tune 1/8" out of center. Heck, most folks have enough problems tuning a center shot bow.*
> 
> ...


Thank you for ALL of *that* Jimmy...and i apologize to all for my "vocalness" (if that's a word! LOL!) but despite my previous achievements with fingers/compound in the NFAA i hafta accept that when it comes to competitive trad i'm still a very confused newcomer as it seems the 3 organizations that are available to me locally here all have a different spin on what IS a longbow..

ASA: simply doesn't care..they group all trad bows in one class..

_"7. Traditional 25 yards, 280 FPS

Bow must be either recurve or longbow without wheels or cams. No release aid, no sights, a single stabilizer up to 12” in length measured from the point of attachment, no overdraws, no draw checks, must have one finger touching the arrow nock, and must use one consistent anchor point. No marks on the sight window, string, or bow to use as an aiming or judging reference. All arrows must be identical in size, weight and construction."_

IBO: Uses the centries old *DEFINITION* of a longbow..where they are absolutely NOT centershot yet they also seem to understand that reflex/deflex has been steam bent into longbow limbs since man figured out he could..but the age old and time proven definition still stands.."As Long As The String Doesn't Contact The Limbs When Strung"..a longbow IS a longbow..

_"A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications:
1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow.
2. The riser should be cut no closer than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, however, if a riser is cut less than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, a pad may be added so that the arrow rests on a surface no closer than 1/8 inch outside the centerline of bow.
3. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows.
4. A longbow may have a draw weight of up to 90 pounds (measured at the face edge of the bow at the arrow shelf at 28 inches draw)"_

IFAA/NFAA: and here is where things get dark, fuzzy and blurred as the powers that be have taken it into their own hands to re-write the centuries old and time proven definition of a longbow whereby...

While they have obcessed and micro-managed limb curvature?...effectively eliminating many of the current crop of longbows from competing in the longbow class?..they have completely overlooked the very thing that makes a longbow so much more difficult to tune and shoot well (as opposed to a recurve).."Centershot"...which leaves the broomhandled hill bow shooters at a far larger "advantage deficiet" against the D-Shaped...*when strung...stealth bows..and while you say..

_"I would say that the majority of those shooters pick up a Bear, 21st Century, Fox, Martin, Tomahawk, or something like that - the most common bows."_

maybe they are "the most common bows" (to you) because the archers with centaurs, bamabows, big jims, dryads, bushmens and a host of others are left sitting home cause they know they can't compete against what are basically recurves with D-shaped (*when strung) longbow limbs.

My Bushmen "American Native" Longbow was built by a locally well known bowyer...he full well knew i had owned dozens of recurves but also asked if i've ever owned a longbow before..and actually told me prior to buying it..

"Be prepared to do a lot of tuning with this bow because you'll need to find the proper spine/length/diameter/point-weight arrow that it likes and shoots well as while it's very fast for a longbow it's also cut 1/8th" before center."

Now..combine the speed + the 1/8th" before center + the torsional instability of RD limbs?...and ya pretty much have the worst of all three worlds as it took me 9 months and dozens of arrow spine/length/point-weight (and string) variations to get it tuned and shooting well and still isn't 1/2 as forgiving as either of my recurves..it's very touchy regarding form and shot execution...which tells me..."it's dang sure a longbow"! :laugh:

but when i do my part?..it's a beautiful thing...and i'm proud of my accomplishment. 

yet according to the only organization that took it upon themselves to re-write the definition of a longbow this...



















isn't?

but here's the (now) funny part..for a second there?..i found myself thinking..

"man..now i gotta get me a fox triple crown."

but then i chuckled to myself thinking..why?..so i can have what is basically a recurve with hidden D-shaped limbs?..so i can shoot in the same class with and whoop up on the hill bow guys? :laugh:

and please..these are just the thoughts of a somewhat jaded man who owns a real nice, finally well tuned longbow, that...

will never see an IFAA/NFAA event...so please don't take it personal.

and i still believe i'm just one of many. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I was asked to provide input on what sorts of arrows should be allowed in the NFAA LB class while it was under developement. Like a dummy I limitted my input to just that aspect. Since only a small handful of LB shooters will travel from the US all over the world to compete in IFAA events, who really cares about IFAA rules? The simple classic definition would have been sufficient. Yes we have the IFAA Worlds in 2014. I'm prepared for that. But again, how many LB shooters, regardless of what bow designs are allowed, would attend that? Seriously, for the long term, nationwide, the current NFAA rules for LB are way too exclusive if the real intent is to grow the sport. But on the bright side, after years and years of being totally excluded, at least we now HAVE the class. At this point we can now pester our regional reps to have the class modified to be more inclusive. 
Oh and the idea that NFAA followed IFAA in order to "help" USA LB shooters be more competitive in IFAA is of course laughable now that IFAA is considering those rule changes designed to eliminate even more shooters. It was simply a matter of the NFAA president getting lazy and just following somebody else's idea. Too bad that the idea that he copied is just not relevant here in the US.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bender said:


> I was asked to provide input on what sorts of arrows should be allowed in the NFAA LB class while it was under developement. Like a dummy I limitted my input to just that aspect. Since only a small handful of LB shooters will travel from the US all over the world to compete in IFAA events, who really cares about IFAA rules? The simple classic definition would have been sufficient. Yes we have the IFAA Worlds in 2014. I'm prepared for that. But again, how many LB shooters, regardless of what bow designs are allowed, would attend that? Seriously, for the long term, nationwide, the current NFAA rules for LB are way too exclusive if the real intent is to grow the sport. But on the bright side, after years and years of being totally excluded, at least we now HAVE the class. At this point we can now pester our regional reps to have the class modified to be more inclusive.
> Oh and the idea that NFAA followed IFAA in order to "help" USA LB shooters be more competitive in IFAA is of course laughable now that IFAA is considering those rule changes designed to eliminate even more shooters. It was simply a matter of the NFAA president getting lazy and just following somebody else's idea. Too bad that the idea that he copied is just not relevant here in the US.


Thanks Bender..that sorta explains a lot...which i might gather is mostly apathy on the part of the NFAA leadership when it comes to trad classes which in turn is somewhat understandable as it has previously been explained to me that in the euro countries the ratio of trad/compound is about 85% trad to 15% (or less) compound while those numbers are pretty much reversed here stateside.

As then i might gather that while the euro's have the lions share of the roar when it comes to trad at the IFAA level that the NFAA just subcombs to following suit as most of the NFAA leadership are wheelie shooters anyways..and we're left dealing with whatever rules are doled out upon us from "more trad active" foriegn countries.

Which is why more recently?..i've had an idea cross my mind that i thought was cool..that idea being..

Why don't i start a new organization?..and call it something like..

*"American Longbowmen"*

where the rules would be simple...

1. Any single piece longbow (made of any material) as long as the shelf is cut no further than 1/8th" before center and the string doesn't touch the limbs when strung.

2. Any arrows as long as they are consistant unto each other and weigh no less than 8gpp.

and the only class separations would be based on age and gender.

but then sadly?..i figure there's just not enough folks interested in such these days and probably wouldn't grow into anything much more than the idea i just stated..so?..we american longbowmen continue to abide by the decision making and rulings of other nations as we watch our numbers shrink even further over such.

as now i begin to gleen an even deeper understanding of Str8 Shooters words of wisdom and experience dealing with such.

Oh well..just a thought. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

There is a good discourse going on here. I should have clarified my earlier statement by stating that I, too, believe the rules are a bit exclusive but rules by their nature exclude things. I would personally like to see the class have a bit more latitude but the trouble is with too much latitude there are going to be people trying to bend the rules as much as possible. The current IFAA rules are stringent but they are clear cut on the definition of a longbow and they preserve a certain historical image of what a longbow is. Consider the IFAA is based out of Europe and the model European longbow is a D section longbow (think English longbowmen) and I can see why they limit bows to that type. Yeah, historically there have been all kinds of variations to the shape of a longbow amongst the different cultures of the world but most people recognize a certain longbow shape. I've showed up at shoots with hybrids and had the average compound shooter ask me what kind of recurve I'm shooting. That's never happened when I've shown up with a Hill-style longbow. I digress but my point is while the class could be more inclusive there needs to be a enough difference between the LB class and Trad to justify a different class. If the LB class would allow every variation of limb/riser design like IBO you'd end up with most guys running ILF risers with LB limbs and if that's the case you might as well stick in the trad class. Again, just my personal opinion. 

I see the point Jimmy makes about people not being happy but not vocal. That is true and certainly needs to be considered. But, most diehard longbow guys have very clearcut ideas as to what a longbow is and no matter which way the rules go there will always be someone who thinks the rules have gone too far and someone who thinks they haven't gone far enough.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Str8 Shooter said:


> There is a good discourse going on here. I should have clarified my earlier statement by stating that I, too, believe the rules are a bit exclusive but rules by their nature exclude things. I would personally like to see the class have a bit more latitude but the trouble is with too much latitude there are going to be people trying to bend the rules as much as possible. The current IFAA rules are stringent but they are clear cut on the definition of a longbow and they preserve a certain historical image of what a longbow is. Consider the IFAA is based out of Europe and the model European longbow is a D section longbow (think English longbowmen) and I can see why they limit bows to that type. Yeah, historically there have been all kinds of variations to the shape of a longbow amongst the different cultures of the world but most people recognize a certain longbow shape. I've showed up at shoots with hybrids and had the average compound shooter ask me what kind of recurve I'm shooting. That's never happened when I've shown up with a Hill-style longbow. I digress but my point is while the class could be more inclusive there needs to be a enough difference between the LB class and Trad to justify a different class. If the LB class would allow every variation of limb/riser design like IBO you'd end up with most guys running ILF risers with LB limbs and if that's the case you might as well stick in the trad class. Again, just my personal opinion.
> 
> I see the point Jimmy makes about people not being happy but not vocal. That is true and certainly needs to be considered. But, most diehard longbow guys have very clearcut ideas as to what a longbow is and no matter which way the rules go there will always be someone who thinks the rules have gone too far and someone who thinks they haven't gone far enough.


I would disagree Str8...but only in your assesment of the IBO as they seem to be the only one of 3 organizations that recall that with a true longbow you shoot around the riser and not through it like a centershot recurve and that to me yeilds far more of a tuning/shootability delta that does any micro-managment of limb curvature..and if anyone walked up to me asking what sort of recurve i was shooting whilst i was holding my longbow?...where one can clearly see the string doesn't contact the limbs?..let's just say i would probably be a great source of enlightment to them! :laugh:

again..it's well documented in history that many longbows have had reflex/deflex steam bent into them for centuries past..and too date?..the IFAA is the ONLY organization in the world that has challenged the definition of a longbow that's been in place since the invention of the recurve..literally.

and they did it by way of micro-managing limb curvature and re-writing their own definition.

and everything i just stated is provable "FACT"...not thoughts...not opinions..just provable "FACT".

so why is it that even the most noteable and respected of archers would choose to overlook such?..loyalty to a specific organization?..i don't get it..it's beyond me..so...to the backyard i go! :laugh:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

The IFAA in not defining what a Longbow is or should be, theyre simply defining a set of rules to make competition as fair as possible nothing really more than that. As Str8 mentioned drawing a line between Recurve and Longbow helps keep those divisions seperate, if the lines become too blured than Longbow may vanish totally from IFAA.

Talks have been about allowing Longbow rules closer to IBO/WA3D Longbow rules and even allowing 2 piece takedowns for ease of travel, the cogs of change are slow but I think it will become more inclusive over time.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> The IFAA in not defining what a Longbow is or should be, theyre simply defining a set of rules to make competition as fair as possible nothing really more than that. As Str8 mentioned drawing a line between Recurve and Longbow helps keep those divisions seperate, if the lines become too blured than Longbow may vanish totally from IFAA.
> 
> Talks have been about allowing Longbow rules closer to IBO/WA3D Longbow rules and even allowing 2 piece takedowns for ease of travel, the cogs of change are slow but I think it will become more inclusive over time.


Steve..what could blurr the lines more than a centershot longbow with a recurve like riser that has a small square window?

and here's a great example pic of which i speak..would anybody here over the age of 40 think this to be a longbow?..


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

in regards to centre shot I shoot 26 inch draw and about 34 lbs .. I need the centre shot for sure because of the 5/16 arrows I shoot with 100 grain tips this is what tunes for me .. not all of us shoot 55 lbs and 30 inch draw so we can shoot telephone poles and have them work.. difference is my arrows would drop about a foot more than the other persons at 25 yards ..and would not tune properly unless a lighter arrow.. we had a 125 grain tip rule in canada for some longbow classes which made no sense especially if you shot lighter poundage.. I had rule changed to a minimum 100 grain tip.. now everybody is happy and women and kids can actually have a tuned set up to shoot with...its still the shooter usually.. but as stated we all try to shoot as close to the fine line in the rules when it comes to performance out of our equipement...


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Steve..what could blurr the lines more than a centershot longbow with a recurve like riser that has a small square window?


IFAA dont allow centershot risers or squared off riser windows but no limit on grip type or amount of wood in riser, Fox make several versions of their tripple crown, one with cut riser and one with IFAA legal riser

Its funny but you and some others complained about how limiting the IFAA Longbow rules are then you start to complain about (wrongly) thinking they allowing centershot/squared risers......confused!!!! 

You see you cannot please everybody as you all have your own personal ideas on what a Longbow should be, at least IFAA allow all the 43 member countries vote and majority rules, cant really get fairer that that. They have proposed and voted on some silly stuff in the past that I personally dont agree with but at least it is the same for all IFAA members, democracy has its good and bad points.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> IFAA dont allow centershot risers or squared off riser windows


 steve..look in the IFAA BOR...(7.) "Longbow"....paragraph "C.".....which reads in the last sentence..

"The window may not exceed the centre of the bow."

which means it CAN be cut too center if the archer seeks optimum advantage.




steve morley said:


> but no limit on grip type or amount of wood in riser, Fox make several versions of their tripple crown, one with cut riser and one with IFAA legal riser


that's interesting..i wasn't aware that FOX makes several versions of their triple crown..one specifically to accomodate IFAA?..and the IFAA BOR goes onto say that the window must also be slanted and rounded..so i guess that could be interpreted as what i saw on Larry Yeins triple crown in MBB Vol III where the rear view of his longbow floored me because it had a squarer, smaller, tighter window than my bob lee recurve..so maybe an "eXtremely slight slant" with a veRy tIny corner radius is permitted? :laugh:



steve morley said:


> Its funny but you and some others complained about how limiting the IFAA Longbow rules are then you start to complain about (wrongly) thinking they allowing centershot/squared risers......confused!!!!


well Steve?..it is kinda....uhem..."limiting"...(as you say) when you own a finely crafted well tuned longbow yet aren't allowed to compete in the longbow class.

and yet still...even by the finest archers in the world..."THE FACTS" of what the true definition of a longbow really is...and historically has been for centuries...remains entirely overlooked as they insist upon defending their recently re-scripted version of history..where the real facts are reflex/deflex has been steam bent into longbows since somewhere's between the 13th and 16th centuries.

now if you'll excuse me?..i'm headed to the backyard to go shoot my "not-a-longbow" :laugh:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

If I can make it work I'm going to louisville with my fox triple crown set at 41 lbs with some of Paul Jalons premium wood shafts.

Jimmy I agree the best longbow shooting the best arrow....seems fitting!!!!!


Dewayne


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Just because something is "fair" that does not stop it from being foolish.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

YES, and I own and shoot one.



QUOTE=JINKSTER;1065475874]Steve..what could blurr the lines more than a centershot longbow with a recurve like riser that has a small square window?

and here's a great example pic of which i speak..would anybody here over the age of 40 think this to be a longbow?..








[/QUOTE]


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Jinkster have to leave the 8 grns per pound out as not fair to 30 lb bow shooters arrows would drop like lead ... put a minimum 100 grain tip rule in though..plus then you would have to measure bow weight at archers draw length then weigh arrows ..now that is time consuming...especially for the tournament organizers lol lol ..


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Yes, Jinx that is a longbow. It's a Fox Triple Crown and it is 1/8" out of center as well. You have an opinion as to what a longbow is and so does everyone else. How is that bow different than the one you posted on page 2? 

You have some strong opinions about NFAA as well. Do you know Bruce? Have you met any of the NFAA leadership? I'm not being rude by calling you out but it's not helpful for folks to post all their matter of fact opinions about why a given organization makes a decision when they really don't know. Why do some only think a Hill bow is a longbow? Is it solely because Howard Hill shot it? If he had shot a Fox Triple Crown you'd be calling that the only true longbow I suppose. 

Jinx, the truth about bows is that most of the top shooters could shoot any longbow and win. I had a guy all over me at Twin Oaks because I shot an elevated rest in the Recurve class at our Spring opener. He was convinced that I shot 70 something points higher due to an elevated rest. So at our next shoot I shot a selfbow against his Black Widow and I only beat him by about 50 points. Look I just want to create an environment where more people want to come out and join us at shoots. We can't do that by making such stringent rules. I agree the line has to be somewhere but we need to be more inclusive.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Be thankful it's not qualified by the California Department of Justice. Every model would have to be tested and certified, (with a fee of course.), and if your bow wasn't on the list, you couldn't use it


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

Not only is the Fox Triple Crown a longbow, it is a functional work of art as well. I own and shoot one with pride.

Mark


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Jinx, the truth about bows is that most of the top shooters could shoot any longbow and win.


That right there is the truth of the matter.

It struck me that the problems with rules is that we have different, well, "ideologies" that actually lead to diffferences amongst us that are deeper than mere differences in bow design.

There are the guys who say "My main pursuit is hunting. if I compete at all, its just for practice for my hunting."

There are others who say "I hunt, AND I want to seriously compete, but only as it relevant to hunting."

There yet others who say, "I hunt, AND I want to seriously compete, AND I don't mind flingin' a few arrows at really long yardages."

And finally "I don't hunt, target archery is all I care about."

So you know really, in order to grow Traditional archers and encourage more people to get into it, I see it as a matter of seeking to somehow make these different "ideologies" happy. Blah, blah, blah about bow design and rules and such only serves to obscure deeper matters. The rules should be more inclusive. 

Think about this. With simple rules, if you think you're all that with a Hill style, then get busy come out, compete, and kick some butt. If you think that R/D gives you a tech advantage that you want, then by all means get yourself an R/D bow. Now here's the difference. When the rules are structured like that, then people have CHOICES. Which is WAAAYYYY different than being told, "You MUST go out and buy a different bow because what you already have is flat out disallowed, so until you shell out some big bucks, get lost."


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

alright...i agree..once again i've overstepped my bounds..and i know...i have a habit of doing that..and at times i think...no.."i know"..it's self inflicted..but i also know it's because everytime i do?...i get to learn more and more..as far as the FTC's?..lov'em...know they must be a heck of a bow..i'm just pi$$ed at myself for buying a longbow that nots legal in the NFAA longbow class..and i think it rediculous to veiw the extra added speed of it's RD hybrid design to be called an advantage when combined with it's 1/8th" before center riser the thing is a B to shoot!...well.....consistantly...as in i really gotta be on top of my game! :laugh:

but i am seeing what seems to be a new buz word in many of your responses..and it's a buzzword i like seeing...that being..

"inclusive"

and hey..look...i'm an old dog....so i'm actually relieved to say..my alpha wolf days are long over with..i don't even feel the desire to be top dog anymore..but i do love archery and i certainly dig getting the opportuities to spend what are some of my last golden age days meeting and shooting with other like minded archers and i'm certain the cut-throat competitive types will be placed with a peer group of their own so..it's all good..sorry if i offended anyone...and class legal or not?..i still love my RD Hybrid Bushmen Longbow..suckers lightening fast!..especially with these CF Cheetahs! :laugh:

Happy Shooting & L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKS if you took that Longbow to NAFAC nobody would stop you shooting, officials or shooters and Tim Austin will be there so you can voice your opinions, hes heck of a nice guy.


My point about USA following IFAA rules, a few years back I shot IFAA world Indoors and an American came with a hybrid Longbow, carbon arrows and shooting 3 fingers under, he took the news well that his equipment didnt match the rules, he and others (competitors/officials) were good sports, he was loaned a set of woodies and he learnt split finger in 5 secs and nobody minded his bow wasnt D shape. 

Life is simpler if IFAA rules match domestic NFAA rules nobody gets any nasty shocks when they travel half way around the world. The example I gave think shows that IFAA will whenever possible try and make the shooter inclusive but with any assoc you should be reading the rules before you travel to tourneys.

Jimmy if you meet up with myself or Dana take a good look at the Odyssey its right up there with the best of them. 

http://www.timberpoint.co.za/


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Since the original poster asked about the longbow rules as they pertain to NFAA, I'll address my opinion on that. I'm not familiar enough with the IBO or IFAA to offer one.

I don't think the rule is confusing, it's pretty simple really. I do agree, however, that it is too exclusive, especially for a class that is already somewhat marginal from the get go. I think the better thing to do, would have been to establish the class with very liberal criteria, see what happens, and then, if there is any griping or complaints from all these "thousands" of longbow shooters who show up to shoot and feel they are handicapped, or others have an advantage because of their equipment,then tweak the rules. 

Having said that, the rules are really and truly only important to a small cadre of individuals that put in the time, money and dedication to travel across this country, or half way around the world, to compete in the handful of major events that NFAA holds. I find it hard to believe that any of these individuals would spend all the time to prepare, dedicate a sizeable sum of their hard earned money, fly all over the country or even world, and then show up with wrong equipment. I don't see Mr. Blackmon, or Mr. Morley or the other half dozen individuals that regularly post in this forum who compete at this level, making a mistake such as this. For all the rest of us, I don't think it matters much. If I show up at any club in my region, with any kind of longbow, I guarantee you, I'm shooting in the longbow class.

To those "thousands" of longbow shooters who are "staying home" and "hanging their bows up", I say, when it comes to the NFAA, don't think in terms of "If we build it, they will come," you have to think "If they come, we will build it."


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Good post pokynjoe :thumbs_up


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

okay! okay! alright already! :laugh:

And i do get the "rules need to be rules and somebody needs to mak'em" thing...especially for the international jet set trad archers.

So..i guess the way i should be looking at this is..christmas is right around the corner..i need a new D-shape Longbow! :laugh:

and Steve?..i checked out Timberpoint..what country do they hail from?..USD?..wish i had the ca$h..they have a 68"/40# in stocker "Oryx" that i'd be all over.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Jinks the Bows come from South Africa, Jaco Wessels a very talented bowyer and IFAA Longbow shooter


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I like the IFAA rule as it stands, although how you hold the string seems immaterial IMHO ... I like the D shape rule although I could see a second div of r/d and carbons etc . Then I could shoot all my bows .

The IFAA longbow div is always pretty well contested with quite a few participants . Be a shame to dilute it . The Zeta, 21st C , Fox etc is the natural; extension of pushing the D shape rule as much as possible and good luck to them .... Darryl Reeks broke the world record a few years ago with slow poke Hill style bow , its the shooter not the bow... BUT ... having owned and sold many many longbows , hybrids and everything in between and I'll tell you there is a vast difference between hybrids and D shape bows, particularly Hill style D shape bows .

Strangely many of the people who complain about the rules round here don't appear at *any* tournements let alone IFAA ...... 

Be great to see Field take off again ...
its a great game !


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Bender , I missed your post and you make some really valid points ... 

And in my last post I meant round here as in Oz , not AT ...


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

When is the NFAA going to post the rules and announce the class? People are really talking this up yet we don't even know if it's going to happen for sure. Anyone have any idea?


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Here's the link to the Constitution & Bylaws:
http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/1335-2012705-Constitution & By-Laws 2012, 2013.pdf
Go to page 33.
Its been available on the website for several months.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I have seen this but on their website they have not listed it under styles and equipment nor have they listed it as a class for Indoor Nationals. I just wish they'd get it together on their website so those who do plan to shoot it can make plans to be there. I know of quite a few that want to shoot it but they just don't know.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

You are right there has not been enough "publicity" about it. And honestly there never will be. After all its "just" Longbow. But you know, the actual By Laws take precedence over what is or is not on a website. So like for example if you're thinking of doing the Nationals, just print out a copy of the Bylaws, or at least the relevant pages, and show up. And anybody gives you any flak, well, just whip it out and show 'em.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

The thing is NFAA doesn't always allow all of their classes. ie. they said there would be a Trad class at Vegas this year but the website is open for registration yet no TRAD class is listed. They have mentioned that they will have a longbow class at Indoor Nationals but until they allow you to preregister in that class it may or may not be offered. I have spoken to 3 people this week that are asking if I know about it and I hate not being able to answer the question. I emailed them and offered to promote this in the traditional community but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of energy or interest. I think there could be a great turnout but it needs just a little promoting.


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## bowman79 (Jul 9, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I emailed them to ask about the rules. I encouraged them not to limit it to split finger because they will lose numbers, but they still don't have the rules posted, that I can find. Anyone know? I wish they would be more inclusive on this so that a guy with a longbow and wood arrows could go shoot. The IFAA rules drive me nuts with the continuous arch rule. That takes out a lot as well.


Jimmy,
Now you know how a few of us felt this year with IBO changing the rules for the longbow class for 2013. Why limit the longbow class when only 9,8,6, and 11 participants show up to the 1st leg, 2nd leg, 3rd leg and worlds??? It makes no sense. A select few want to crap on some guy cause he throws up a great score. He happens to shoot an ilf longbow, so what!!! It is not an advantage when everyone is capable of shooting one. Its been in the rules for years. People only want to get it changed when they get beat! Its a shame. I feel sorry for the dedicated longbow guys that don't complain. They lost some good competitors in that class because of the rule change. Having specific rules for trad worlds is great! You have at least 40 in each longbow class!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy, Paul Jalon with elite arrows called me and asked if I was planning on shooting longbow and the NFAA national s in Louisville and said you could shoot 3 under,


Dewayne


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

IMHO the NFAA made a boo boo on this one. Traveling with a 70" one pc. longbow is a pain, esp. if you have to get on a plane. Knocking out over 90% of the current longbow shooters with the D shape rule and then making it wooden arrows to boot. I guess they were going for the alignment with the IFAA rules but I dont think it will encourage a bunch of shooters. IBO rules have wood arrows but any longbow is good even 3 piece are ok. I love my 21st Century and my Hill but doubt many will go out and start buying new bows for NFAA shoots. We lack alot of peeps already we need to attract not divide. Gar.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Pilot, They changed the rules for this upcoming year. No more 3 pieces.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John,I truly believe there is a huge difference between a 1 or 2 pc takedown compared to a FULLY adjustable 3 pc longbow..I've owned both and they are two different beasts."we could compete with a 3 pc longbow in any class like TRD of RU but never could we compete at the highest level with a 1 pc longbow.

I think they are two different bows entirely.


Dewayne


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I may be wrong but as I remember the winners in IBO longbow were shooting 1 and 2 pc bows. I dont think for me anyway it gives a big jump in points either way. My point was the NFAA making a class for D shaped bows is so restrictive of a class that many will be passing on shooting thelongbow. Actually I would like to see 3 classes total, compound, recurve and barebow, but I never did like living in the real world LOL. 
gar.


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## bowman79 (Jul 9, 2012)

I agree that there is a big difference. Just stating a fact about how no one complains about someone's set up until they get smoked on the range. People claim its an unfair advantage, but are more than capable of shooting the same setup if they choose. Why limit the bow choice even more when there are less than 10 people in the class? Doesn't make any sense. I figure they would want to promote it a little more, not limit it more.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Pilot, Irvine shot a tradtech 3 piece.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Jimmy who said there would be a Trad style in Vegas this coming year? 
Bender the NFAA President had nothing to do with this change it was proposed by NJ and voted on by the State Directors after being placed into a committee and this is what they came up with, if some of you think there needs to be changes then have you Director come up with a 10 signature item for the meeting.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

There was a lot of talk and discussion but not "decision." I would just like to see more enthusiasm from NFAA. We've got a new longbow class and no press release that I've seen. No one on the boards trying to promote it and encourage folks to come out and shoot it this year. I guess it's just not that big of a deal. In my opinion that is what's wrong with our organizations - no motivation to work the boards and promote the sport. No YouTube videos or anything. Anyway, enough negativity from me.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Any enthusiasm for a new independent North American archery federation the could be run by archers, promoted by archers and have open links to the international federations.
The NFAS in the UK was formed by a breakaway from the other federations and is now the best supported one in the country so it can be done.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

archer_nm said:


> ...if some of you think there needs to be changes then have you Director come up with a 10 signature item for the meeting.


Yes I know that. I've spoken to our State director. Like I've said before, I'm glad that we finally have the Longbow division. Now we have something to work with. But it does need work as it is too restrictive. So, slowly but surely....


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I think it looks pretty good. You can shoot most any longbow except ILF which I, personally, don't think needs to be in the LB class. You can shoot three under and it doesn't even have to be 1/8" out of center. Pretty good.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Meant for NFAA. The IBO rules are pretty good.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Here are the NFAA rules. They are pretty open.

Longbow:
1.	A one piece straight ended bow of any material, which when strung displays one continued unidirectional curve which is measured as follows: When the strung bow is placed with the bowstring in a vertical position, the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved further away from the bow grip. Tip reinforcing not exceeding ½” in height, as measured from the surface of the bow limb and not exceeding 1 ½” in length as measured from the limb tip.
2.	The belly must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids.
3. The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf.
4.	Only one nocking point is allowed on the string which may be marked by one or two nocking point locators.
5.	Nocks may be of any material and weight of pile.
6. One consistent anchor point must be used.
7. Participation in this style requires wooden arrows.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

I have been reading this thread intently.

Being a new shooter, and entertaining the idea of attending one of these events should one be held fairly locally, I am discouraged.

The rules are complicated, and I'm not going to buy a new bow just to go to one of these events.

I shoot a center cut hybrid longbow with carbon arrows so let's see if I have this correct:

1. At an NFAA event I would have to compete in the traditional class with the recurves because my bow is not "D" shape when strung. So I am shoved in with the recurves which can use plungers, and are probably faster shooting and more stable bows with larger risers,etc.. I can't put a plunger on my longbow, so this seems to be giving the recurves an advantage. So I am unlikely to attend that event.

2. At an IBO event I can use my bow in the longbow class if I thicken up the sideplate to come out 1/8" past center and tune up some wood arrows. OK, so I may do this event. But I still neeed to get some wood arrows and tune them to my bow. 

Then, I obviously will not be that competitive, as I will not score high enough to win anything, and I may even miss a few targets altogether. So will I be belittled? 

In other words if you want to increase attendance, you have to attract guys like me. You have to accomodate competitive shooters that are not going to necessarily win, but can hang in there, and are just looking to have some fun, meet some new people, and learn something. These organizations are not going to increase attendance by making rules that serve only to benefit the elite shooters, and by making the rest of us "average Joe's" feel like we shouldn't even be there. We are not going to go buy new bows, new arrows,... and we dont want to go if we will not feel welcome because we are not as good as the elite shooters.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> So will I be belittled?


I can assure you, you will not! In all the years I've been playing this game, I have never been belittled. I've experienced only encouragement, and good fellowship at every shoot I've ever participated in, every shoot, from the smallest to the largest. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised. Will you loose some arrows? Yea, probably, and I bet everyone shooting with you will help you search for them. Will you win? Probably not, but I bet after it's over you'll have found it an enjoyable experience and I bet the club members will fall all over themselves to invite you back. Don't worry about your equipment, at your local club, I bet it won't matter, just show up with what you have. You'll never know if you don't show up.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

pokynojoe said:


> I can assure you, you will not! In all the years I've been playing this game, I have never been belittled. I've experienced only encouragement, and good fellowship at every shoot I've ever participated in, every shoot, from the smallest to the largest. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised. Will you loose some arrows? Yea, probably, and I bet everyone shooting with you will help you search for them. Will you win? Probably not, but I bet after it's over you'll have found it an enjoyable experience and I bet the club members will fall all over themselves to invite you back. Don't worry about your equipment, at your local club, I bet it won't matter, just show up with what you have. You'll never know if you don't show up.


Pokynojoe, I've been to plenty of local club shoots, and you are correct everybody is very accomodating, as we are at our local club. The goal is to encourage more shooters to attend future events. 

I'm talking about an official sanctioned NFAA or IBO event, where I suppose these scores are tallied and go onto some sanctioning body of the NFAA or IBO, and ultimately allow you to qualify for future tournaments. Am I correct as to that is how it works? None of the local club shoots I've attended have been sanctioned by any of these governing bodies, and I've never turned in a score card. They are just fun shoots, and EVERYONE has been overly accomodating at them all. 

My above post is referring to these NFAA and IBO events with all the rules that has generated a heated discussion for the last 100 posts, and how these competitive IBO/NFAA events don't seem to set the rules to attract an aspiring, average, and aging shooter like myself.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Urban

You can go to Trad Worlds and shoot your exact set up in modern long bow no changes at all. 

I have only been to one big IBO event which was last years Trad Worlds. If anything it was more welcoming open and inclusive than the local shoots I go to. People there didn't care what you shoot or how you shoot just that you are there and having a good time. Show up with a single string bow and they will find you a class

Go you will love it. 

Matt


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Urban
I can only tell you what my own experience is in the NFAA section in which I live. I can't speak to IBO, none of my clubs 3D shooters compete in IBO, they shoot the ASA circuit. The reasons for this go back to when the IBO first was getting off the ground, and this isn't an appropriate forum for that discussion. I suppose it really depends on where one resides, as to how rigid the rules are applied.

Let me give you an example. There are only four or maybe five field archery clubs left in the state in which I reside. Typically, the club that hosts the state championships rotates among those clubs. Last year, at the state indoor, there were two individuals, (not including Cubs, or Youth) that shot in what we currently call the "Traditional" class. Since there were only two and no awards were given, no one really cared what they shot, I believe one guy shot a longbow, and they other a recurve with sights and stabilizer. The host club let them decide among themselves, which class they would shoot. I believe they both shot in the traditional class.

The last state outdoor championship our club hosted was four years ago, and it was probably our last, most of us are too old to maintain the range properly for such an event. We had over the three day period a grand total of 14 shooters, and that's covering all classes. 

At last years "Sectional" there were two that shot in the traditional class. Again since nothing is awarded, the gentleman who shot with me(recurve) asked if I would mind if he shot with a long rod, my response was "Use whatever you want." The host club could've cared less, they where happy to get our $35.00 entry fee.

I haven't participated in a National shoot since the old Cobo Hall days in Detroit, I'm sure things are much different. Now having said all that, I'm sure if you would attend the shoot in Louisville, or Darrington, your equipment would have to be correct. However, I'm of the opinion that if your going to put in the time and money to attend a National level tournament, it's unlikely you would show up with the wrong stuff. 

Perhaps you have a large number of shooters participating in these classes where you live, then, I suppose the rules would be more rigidly enforced, in my "world", it's just not the case.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

IFAA voted to allow 2P takedown Longbows in Argentina, think you should get that one added to NFAA as it might help a little in getting more shooters into NFAA Longbow


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

pilotmill said:


> IMHO the NFAA made a boo boo on this one. Traveling with a 70" one pc. longbow is a pain, esp. if you have to get on a plane. Knocking out over 90% of the current longbow shooters with the D shape rule and then making it wooden arrows to boot. I guess they were going for the alignment with the IFAA rules but I dont think it will encourage a bunch of shooters. IBO rules have wood arrows but any longbow is good even 3 piece are ok. I love my 21st Century and my Hill but doubt many will go out and start buying new bows for NFAA shoots. We lack alot of peeps already we need to attract not divide. Gar.


Amen to that Gar...i approached this sport of trad (in a serious mannor for the first time) about a year ago by blowing the dust bunnies off my old Bob Lee...then as i learned more from forums such as this and saw the deficiets snap shooting and accepted that at 54#'s i was overbowed?..ran out and aqquired a beautifully built bushmen american native 64"/43# RD longbow..from a local bowyer...(prior to investgating "the rules")...then again?..at that point i never dreamed they'd be so..uhem..."defined"..it's one piece..it's long...nowheres near centershot...and?..not legal..doesn't meet the strung shape requirement...which blew my mind since it seemed to me at the time that most of the great looking, top shelf, best perfoming longbows being offered were of a RD design.

My latest purchase is a static tip holmegaard/mollegabet amercan elm selfbow hand carved from a stave with no shelf..now...ready for the funny part?....

the top limb would meet the shape requirement but the bottom limb definantly wouldn't! :laugh: (of "longbow class")

now..ready for the real funny part?..i think pound for pound?..grain for grain?..it's every bit as fast (or dare i say faster) than my illegal longbow! :laugh:

ironic...isn't it?...and not that i'm skilled enough to win anything anyways but i've come to the conclusion that too many rulings can suck the fun out of anything..and always seem to serve to "exclude" and not "include"...the real ironic part?..in this game?..ask any of the top trad archers as they all full well know...it's..."the indian"..and..NOT..."the bow"...and it's the most skilled, disciplined shooters that are going to post the better scores even if their shooting a strung 2x4...yet?..those large and in charge claim they service the whiners..by affecting more "rules of exclusion"...so when the last two guys that show up shooting wood arrows off 1 piece d-shaped bows with carbon fiber laminate limbs and phenolic tips to accomodate their space age string materials?...please lock the front gate at the range when ya'll are done competing. :laugh:

I'll be home shooting my illegal bows as much and whenever i want..sorry...hadta vent...and L8R, Bill. :laugh:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Bill IFAA included a primitive Historical bow div a few years ago it is proving to be a very popular div, any type of historical bow design before 1800s. NFAA has only just allowed modern Longbows and I imagine it will take a couple of years before they get it right for USA shooters.

You guys need to be supporting it and not tearing it down before it even has a chance to get off the ground, the more you support it the better the chance of make the changes you want, if you dont support it then they will just kill off the div and from the lack of promotion from NFAA it seems they just went through the motions and expected nobody to show any serious interest, prove them wrong.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

There is a large longbow following in the U.S., and abroad for that matter. Most of them want to keep the class somewhat primitive and not bring in a lot of new technology to the class. Yet, manufacturers and independent bowyers continue to push the envelope with the longbow so the governing institutions are caught in a position of trying to please both shooters and bow companies. The shooters don't even agree with what should and should not be allowed. There are two extremes with everyone else falling in between.

One extreme says that you should have to shoot a Hill style D bow cut to 1/8" out of center. You should have to shoot wood arrows with a Mediterranean loose (split finger).

The other extreme is that as long as the string only touches the nocks at the tip and nowhere else it is technically a longbow so let them shoot it. These folks like 3-under, ILF bows, etc.

You can see that between those extremes you have reflex, deflex bows, 3-under, split, various arrow materials, one piece, two piece, and three piece bows, carbon foam limbs, laminate bows. and on and on. 

We (IBO) feel that we need to give a little in terms of keeping abreast of the most common bows being made so we agreed to give up the 1/8" out of center for 2013 (most bows are made center cut now). We also don't care where you place your fingers on the string as long as you don't change them from shot to shot. We did decide to eliminate three piece bows because the intent of the class is to keep it closer to original longbows and we feel that an ILF longbow is closer to a recurve than a Hill style bow. We also believe that the majority of the people want to keep it a wooden arrow class so we will keep it wooden arrow only. Wooden arrows are more difficult to tune and keep matched than carbon so this is a part of the class. Certainly, carbon or aluminum present an advantage. There are more opinions on this stuff than I could begin to explain....believe me...I get to hear them. I believe we are acting in the best interest of the sport at IBO and not for any particular individuals. I promise you we are doing the best we can.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Jimmy IBO and WA (World Archery) Longbow rules are fairly close, I would be good to see IFAA also come a little closer to WA/IBO rules, I think it would open up the Longbow tourney shooting to more people everywhere. 

I agree you are never going to get it perfect as everybody has their personal views on what a Longbow should be but to have IFAA, IBO and WA with all the similar rules would be a great boost to Longbow as a whole.

I would add with IBO/WA 3D short distances the type of Longbow you shoot doesnt make a huge difference but IFAA long distances a hybrid Longbow would have a speed advantage over a D shape profile Longbow, I think one of the main reasons IFAA has kept it that way for so long, I also think it would be the death of the D shape (when strung) Longbow if Hybrids were allowed and that would be a shame.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

steve morley said:


> Jimmy IBO and WA (World Archery) Longbow rules are fairly close, I would be good to see IFAA also come a little closer to WA/IBO rules, I think it would open up the Longbow tourney shooting to more people everywhere.
> 
> I agree you are never going to get it perfect as everybody has their personal views on what a Longbow should be but to have IFAA, IBO and WA with all the similar rules would be a great boost to Longbow as a whole.
> 
> I would add with IBO/WA 3D short distances the type of Longbow you shoot doesnt make a huge difference but IFAA long distances a hybrid Longbow would have a speed advantage over a D shape profile Longbow, I think one of the main reasons IFAA has kept it that way for so long, *I also think it would be the death of the D shape (when strung) Longbow if Hybrids were allowed and that would be a shame.*


Well said Steve ... particularly the last sentence .....
I think that allowing 2 pce and have a minimum length of perhaps 64" may be a good middle ground


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Urban
> 
> You can go to Trad Worlds and shoot your exact set up in modern long bow no changes at all.
> 
> ...


Matt, 

I live fairly close to Seven Springs, PA which seems to host the IBO World Championships and Archery Festival, so I will plan on attending that one for sure. But I see on their website they have a few others, but travelling to many of them will not be an option. Trad Worlds is in Indiana and I am unlikely to go to that one. Are the few events on the IBO website the only IBO sanctioned events for the entire 2013 year?

Tony


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Tony

I'm the wrong guy to ask but yes that is my understanding - send RangerB a PM and ask him for better clarification. 

Matt


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> I have been reading this thread intently.
> 
> Being a new shooter, and entertaining the idea of attending one of these events should one be held fairly locally, I am discouraged.
> 
> The rules are complicated, and I'm not going to buy a new bow just to go to one of these events.


Im with you on that. I a passionate about my sport and would love to see it grow. I don't see why limiting a class that pulls an averge of 8 shooters at the ibo ntc and regular worlds would limit peoples chioce even more would get that class to grow! Sounds very counter intuitive to me. I know why they did it, and I not proud that it changed. (Trad worlds is a different animal, and is run very well) Same thing applies to the NFAA. Why start a longbow class and limit what bows can participate??? Why not let all longbows in? You will get a bigger crowd. Once you get the participants to a very healthy number, then you can entertain the idea of splitting up the class. I hope I am wrong, but I'm afraid that the numbers aren't going to be very healthy. I personally know a lot more people that buy three piece longbows over the two piece verity. You would get a greater plus in numbers with a three piece. A lot of people like the fact that they can buy one riser and have a hunting bow and a target bow. Just so everyone is clear. I cut and pasted the new rule change for the ibo 2013 year... Longbow (LB) A one (1) or two (2) piece longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. 
The motivating factor for this rule change is that one person shot lights out at the very first shoot with a three piece. Because some people got upset that they lost, they caused a big stink. To please those shooters, now no one can shoot a three piece longbow. That's a fact! Its a shame that there are a lot of beautiful Morrison's, fedoras, silver tips that cant compete in these shoots anymore in the longbow class. 
I guess that's enough venting. Longbow shooters, prove me wrong and bring up those numbers at the shoots!


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Steve Morley you are 100 percent wrong about what the NFAA did, this was only the 1st step in adding the Longbow style and we can't be expected to make all of you happy, sure there will be changes as it grows. We as an organization are bound by a constitution and because of this all changes have to be voted in. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, but in all fairness to the Directors they did a darn good job in making this happen. It has been a long time since a new style was voted in, so give us a break and allow the system to work if the members want it to change then it will happen.


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Just a reminder: the strict longtbow rules generally apply in the US only for a few major championships. At most events archers are welcome to shoot most any bow and arrow so long as the string doesn't touch the limbs, and I am happy to compete against them. I do think it is appropriate to be a bit more restrictive at national championships so that special technology does not determine who does well. - lbg


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Steve Morley you are 100 percent wrong about what the NFAA did


Which part am I 100% wrong on?

I think its great NFAA now have a Longbow div and think it was the right thing in following IFAA international rules, I also think the NFAA could do more to promote this new div to help it grow.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

archer_nm said:


> Steve Morley you are 100 percent wrong about what the NFAA did, this was only the 1st step in adding the Longbow style and we can't be expected to make all of you happy, sure there will be changes as it grows. We as an organization are bound by a constitution and because of this all changes have to be voted in. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, but in all fairness to the Directors they did a darn good job in making this happen. *It has been a long time since a new style was voted in,* so give us a break and allow the system to work if the members want it to change then it will happen.


Bob..first?...i appreciate what all organizational officers give of themself to keep things up and running..but the one comment you made (highlighted in bold above) kinda blows my mind...in a "reality check" sorta way..in that...

"the oldest of styles"

had to be "voted in" as a..

"new style"?..

so please...if ya get a chance to bring it up?..remind the folks at the NFAA that if it were not for this new/old style that for some reason hadta be voted in?...there would be no NFAA...cause all the folks who started the NFAA in the mid-late 1930's shot one type of bow.."LONGBOWS"...and gasp...it's rumored that some of them even toyed around with RD designs..way back then..as it wasn't until approximately a decade and a 1/2 later in 1953 when Bear Archery developed and made available the first mass produced recurves..so i find it quite ironic that *"The Bow/Style That Started It All FOR the NFAA"*?...had to be..."voted back in as a new style"?

so..might i also suggest that the powers that be might propose to select a volunteer/volunteers who have some intimate knowledge of what the longbow class "should be about"?...especially since it was "The Longbow" which fathered in the birth of the NFAA in the first place?..cause i for one feel the signifigance of such facts deserves far more respect than it's apparently been given..the historical value alone of this class (especially to the NFAA) should've been nurtured, valued and time honored all along...and definantly not...

a "new style"...that hadta be..."voted back in". 

jmho and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Bob..first?...i appreciate what all organizational officers give of themself to keep things up and running..but the one comment you made (highlighted in bold above) kinda blows my mind...in a "reality check" sorta way..in that...
> 
> "the oldest of styles"
> 
> ...


Jinks, I'm not sure if you understand all the ramifications of voting in a style of shooting within the framework of the Nfaa. First of all, once the recurve came into play, those wanting to shoot and compete with the longbow practically became obsolete. Once the compound came into the picture, those shooting the recurve were reduced to few numbers. There has been a small revival of people who have gone back to " stickbows" but he overall number within the Nfaa is very small. Even smaller yet is the number of archers who show up for tournaments shooting those styles, especially longbow. The more styles of shooting allowed has put an extreme burden on all the local Nfaa clubs because of all the awards that have to be given out. Right now the total number of awards that would possibly have to be given out at any shoot is staggering and crippling to any host clubs budget. I personally don't see the need for the Nfaa to create a class where 1-3 people will show up for any major competition. If someone wants to shoot a longbow, so be it, just classify all of the nonsight "stickbow" shooters together and "run what ya brung". We need less styles of shooting, not more. My opinion only.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

itbeso, I have to agree - not that I really like it, but when there is only a handfull of shooters with stickbows anyway.........well hard to break that up even more. There seems to be a few places East of the Mississippi that have large numbers of Trad shooters, and even Trad only shoots, but I have to believe those are the exceptions.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Itbeso, yes, the permutations of equipment, gender, age, and experience for NFAA "Divisions" for awards add up to 82 separate divisions per their awards classifications.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> The more styles of shooting allowed has put an extreme burden on all the local Nfaa clubs because of all the awards that have to be given out. Right now the total number of awards that would possibly have to be given out at any shoot is staggering and crippling to any host clubs budget.


I can totally understand that...BUT...why do these clubs have to spend so much money on trophies...why not just buy ribbons for the smaller classes.

Isn't knowing you won or placed enough? Unless of course you're shooting professionally....than I like them to show me the money :wink:

I personally can careless about trophies. This may sound bad...but I've thrown most of my trophies away. I just don't need them all over my shelves or walls even though I'm proud of each accomplishment they represented. 

I would much rather see the organization or an archery club keep a plaque or something to that effect keeping record of who the winners were from year to year. It surely would be more cost effective.

Do people really need trophies? Does anyone else have an opinion on that? Please share.

Ray :shade:


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Even smaller yet is the number of archers who show up for tournaments shooting those styles, especially longbow. The more styles of shooting allowed has put an extreme burden on all the local Nfaa clubs because of all the awards that have to be given out. Right now the total number of awards that would possibly have to be given out at any shoot is staggering and crippling to any host clubs budget. I personally don't see the need for the Nfaa to create a class where 1-3 people will show up for any major competition. If someone wants to shoot a longbow, so be it, just classify all of the nonsight "stickbow" shooters together and "run what ya brung". We need less styles of shooting, not more. My opinion only.


Alas, a voice in the wilderness! This is exactly the problem as concerns field archery and the affiliated clubs. Burden indeed! As someone that is charged with coming up with economical awards for my club, this is a big part of the problem for us. When bidding on the the state indoor, outdoor, what have you, it's a major pain. We have decided that until some sanity returns to all these classifications we will no longer bid on any NFAA sanctioned tournaments. The last two we hosted we lost money, it's just not economically feasible for us. I sincerely hope that our predicament is not typical of the rest of the country, but I fear many other field archry clubs are struggling also.

Good post sir, you hit the nail on the head!


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Just give pins for club shoots. Buy them in bulk. Cool pins are economical and nice to have. What do you do with a plaque? Mine goes into the closet in a box.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do people really need trophies?


Ray
I can only speak from my personal experience, and only as regards the NFAA. The simple answer to your question is yes, unfortunately. When we bid on say, for example, a state indoor or outdoor championship, we're required to provide awards for every class. If only two shoot in the class then 1st place must be awarded, more than two, 1st and 2nd, etc. Realistically, not every class and division is represented, and you don't have to have an award for every division. The problem arises with late entries, those who show up and register the day of the tournament, etc. You never really know who is going to show up and shoot, therefore, you have to be prepared. This is the convention here as regards my state affiiate. Others may vary.

In addition to the above, it's been my experience that people almost always expect to get something, or at least the possibility of winning something if their going to pay their entry fee, whatever that may be. This isn't a recent trend, but is pretty uniform behavior over all the years I've been involved with the NFAA, at all the clubs I've been involved with.

At our club, we generally provide a nice lunch which is included in your entry fee, you would think that would be enough, it's not.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Just give pins for club shoots. Buy them in bulk. Cool pins are economical and nice to have. What do you do with a plaque? Mine goes into the closet in a box.



With all due respect, I don't think we're talking about club shoots. I don't think anyone cares about rules and classes at club shoots, and no one expects an award. If that is what we're talking about, then the powers that be can establish all the classes and divisions they want, that would be fine.
t


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

pokynojoe said:


> Ray
> I can only speak from my personal experience, and only as regards the NFAA. The simple answer to your question is yes, unfortunately. When we bid on say, for example, a state indoor or outdoor championship, we're required to provide awards for every class. In addition to the above, it's been my experience that people almost always expect to get something, or at least the possibility of winning something if their going to pay their entry fee, whatever that may be. This isn't a recent trend, but is pretty uniform behavior over all the years I've been involved with the NFAA, at all the clubs I've been involved with.


IMO...this has to STOP!

Why does competition have to always involve 'getting' something in return'?

We should start trying to set an example to our kids and others that we don't always need to get something in return for our efforts...that competition isn't about trophies. It's about doing your best with what God has given you and what you have developed through perceverence, dedication, sacrifice and hard work. That's what people should be proud of and need. They shouldn't be taught that they need an elaborate trophy to validate themselves.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Jinks, I'm not sure if you understand all the ramifications of voting in a style of shooting within the framework of the Nfaa. First of all, once the recurve came into play, those wanting to shoot and compete with the longbow practically became obsolete. Once the compound came into the picture, those shooting the recurve were reduced to few numbers. There has been a small revival of people who have gone back to " stickbows" but he overall number within the Nfaa is very small. Even smaller yet is the number of archers who show up for tournaments shooting those styles, especially longbow. The more styles of shooting allowed has put an extreme burden on all the local Nfaa clubs because of all the awards that have to be given out. Right now the total number of awards that would possibly have to be given out at any shoot is staggering and crippling to any host clubs budget. I personally don't see the need for the Nfaa to create a class where 1-3 people will show up for any major competition. If someone wants to shoot a longbow, so be it, just classify all of the nonsight "stickbow" shooters together and "run what ya brung". We need less styles of shooting, not more. My opinion only.


itbeso...you're correct...and i would never claim to understand all the ramifications...nor would i want to..but i understand what happened...it blew my mind that first time i showed up to a major shoot at our local club (in the early 90's) and there weren't enough finger shooters (with wheelbows) to make a 4 person group..and archers showing up with stickbows fell just short of be laughed at..but while i understand?..i still find it sad that the very class that "started it all" ever had to be voted back in.

Conversly?..I also agree there's waaaay to many classes...and imho?..therein lies the fly in the ointment as folks were given to many choices during a time our numbers were great enough to afford to offer such...and the beast grew..with many making their selection based on which class would fast-track them to the respective podiums (made available)...but imho?..it certainly didn't help matters that what little downsizing that DID take place?...included the evaporation of the longbow class..as i now realize as i type this..maybe "a longbow class" never in fact existed...and longbows just fell by the wayside via "attrition"...just saddens me..so?...sorry...my bad.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

As far as classes go....I've always said there should be basically just 6 classes to fullfill the different mindsets without going to extremes.

Here are the classes.

Primitive Target
Primitive Bowhunter
Traditional Target
Traditional Bowhunter
Compound Target
Compound Bowhunter

That would surely reduce the number of trophies expected to be handed out.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I can totally understand that...BUT...why do these clubs have to spend so much money on trophies...why not just buy ribbons for the smaller classes.
> 
> Isn't knowing you won or placed enough? Unless of course you're shooting professionally....than I like them to show me the money :wink:
> 
> ...


Ray, I'm not even talking about trophies at local shoots, the clubs would definitely not be able to swing that. Even the cost of pins at a minimum of $3.50 per pin runs into a lot of money. Our region has started giving out nice certificates ( suitable for framing):teeth: that, in my opinion are much more attractive than cheap? trophies and have gone over quite nicely. With that said, Pokynojoe has it right when he says that state and national tourneys are obligated to give out nice awards and it gets to be a big burden. The answer to you last question is yes, I think awards of some kind are important, especially for people new to competition. A lot of us old timers, like you, have donated many of their trophies to kid shoots and the like but the real special ones( silver bowls and state championships will always have a place on the mantle.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Our region has started giving out nice certificates ( suitable for framing):teeth: that, in my opinion are much more attractive than cheap? trophies and have gone over quite nicely.


That seems more cost effective and realistic. I like it alot! :wink:

I guess I just don't personally see the need for trophies...but I do see a need for some type of record keeping where a person can look up past competitions to validate who won or placed.

I just don't need a constant reminder hanging on my wall or on a shelf to show off to other people or remind me of how well I did. Maybe I'm weird and maybe it's just human nature to need trophies.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> IMO...this has to STOP!
> 
> Why does competition have to always involve 'getting' something in return'?
> 
> ...


Because that is the way the world works. You compete at work to get a better paying position, You compete in high school sports with the hope of getting a college scholarship, etc. The one area I do not agree with is the policy of giving every child that shows up an award. Then , doing well, has no special meaning and , I feel, sets all those kids up for failure later in life when doing well means getting ahead in life or not. Jmo


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> That seems more cost effective and realistic. I like it alot! :wink:
> 
> I guess I just don't personally see the need for trophies...but I do see a need for some type of record keeping where a person can look up past competitions to validate who won or placed.
> 
> ...


Ray, just guessing, but do you have any heads hanging on the walls? I do and they give me a lot of pleasure rembering past hunts. To me, same thing .


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Ray, just guessing, but do you have any heads hanging on the walls? I do and they give me a lot of pleasure rembering past hunts. To me, same thing .


Actually...I don't with that either. The one head I had taxidermied when I was in my early 20's is in my closet. I've got elk and deer skulls in the backyard but nothing hanging on my walls.

I totally understand the coorelation. This isn't meant to sound egotistical...but maybe it has something to do with winning so many trophies over the years...they just don't mean that much to me as when I remember getting my first one. I've just realized over the years...there not that important to me anymore. I already have the memories.

By the way...I would be more likely to hang a beuatiful head on the wall than a trophy. I think a HUGE bull or deer would be beautiful to look at and share with others...but a trophy...not so much...unless it was artistic and hand made.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

mine are in the garage taking up shelf space...dusted'em off once about a year ago...but if all these classes are such a financial burden?..why not consolodate and downsize?..what would be wrong with..

1. Compound Freestyle
2. Compound Bowhunter
3. Olympic (ILF Approved)
4. Barebow (ILF Approved)
5. Recurve (Non ILF Only)
6. Longbow (Non ILF Only)
7. Primitive/Historical (wood arrows only/the hillbow/selfbow crew)

and the guys that wanna buy cnc machined ilf risered longbows w/ carbon/foam limbs?..need top go start their own club! :laugh:

7 is a heavenly number..but times that by gender x's age groups (cub 8-12, youth 13-16, young adult 17-20, adult 21-AARP, Seniors AARP & Beyond) and ya got..7 X's 2 genders = 14 x's 5 age groups?...is still a whopping 70 Classes!

but why on earth would you disclude folks for some RD in their longbow limbs?...or?..dictate how YOU shoot YOUR bow?...i.e. don't tell an archer they can't stringwalk if they wish to do so.

oh well..guess i'm just ignant. :laugh:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

One of the reasons I enjoy WA3D, only 4 divs. 

*Compound* Unlimited

*Barebow*, same as WA Field Barebow div i.e. Stringwalking

*Longbow*, 1P bow with wood arrows either split ot 3 under 

*Instinctive*, Wood riser Recurve bolt down limbs no ILF allowed, carbon arrows, split finger or 3 under


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> why not consolodate and downsize?..what would be wrong with..
> 
> 1. Compound Freestyle
> 2. Compound Bowhunter
> ...


I'm liking the way you think! :wink:

Downsized without going to extreme one way or the other :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

You guys would be crucified. LOL ;-) In the U.S. we have more compound divisions than you can shake a stick at and they all have their reasons for their class. Fingers, releases, pins, scopes, no sights, kickstands, umbrellas etc. In the trad world we have been pretty good but I agree that we should reduce them but reality is that many folks are not ready to conform to shoot in a class. 

Here is what I get guys. I'm not exaggerating. A guy will come up with his bow and say he doesn't care about competing. He doesn't even want to turn his scorecard in. We tell him that he will have to shoot his Howard Hill in the MLB class because he is shooting carbon arrows and he say's, "I'm not shooting against those guys. It's not fair with all those gadgets." 
"Sir, but I thought you didn't really even care about score or competing."
"Well, I ain't shooting against them."

Same thing with a guy shooting his Bear recurve and an elevated weather rest. He doesn't want to compete but when you say you are in RU he goes apey. 

I think we have a pretty good read on the reality of folks' emotions because they say one thing out under the oak tree, but we see their true feelings when they corner us with their heated complaints. I have a guy that I can count on. Every time I see him he will let me have it on how we have destroyed the LB class by letting guys shoot 3-under and aim the bow. He detests it. I am out of things to say. 

People say it's not a big deal until if affects them personally and then the tune changes...and the emotion goes with it.

I'm fine with lumping all recurves together. I'm fine with putting MLB in with recurves, but I'm not fine with dealing with the fallout from the other competitors.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> In the U.S. we have more compound divisions than you can shake a stick at and they all have their reasons for their class.


I think it's absolutely RIDICULOUS all the classes for the compound shooters.

The way I see it...there are basically 3 different mindsets in archery.

Competition target archers, bowhunters and reinactors or archers that just like to shoot primitive gear.

I believe if competitive target archery is your main goal as an archer than your basing your equipment choices and technique on what gives you the best advantage to shoot the most accurate. The choices an archer makes in equipment and technique will generally follow what the top shooters are using. 

For example...the way I see it is...if you want to compete...don't ask for a special class for yourself because you choose NOT to use a stabilizer while other archers are using one. *You go to compete to win...not to try and handicap yourself so you can ask for your own class or use your handicap as an excuse why you lost.*

If you're a bowhunter...you're choosing equipment that can give you an advantage in the field that is the most effective under most hunting circumstances...and I believe the 3D courses should be set-up to represent typical hunting shots...and not targets set at 50yrds. or further. Those kind of shots should be left to the target shooters, IMO...at least for competition. 

Keeping target distances basically at 30yrds. and under for the Bowhunter Class...pretty much nullifies the advantages that some equipment choices have that show up more at longer distances.

Reinactors basically just enjoy shooting acient or more primitive gear and can careless about the latest and greatest equipment that will give them an advantage.

Just some food for thought. Not that anyone will necessarily buy into it...but it's the way my mind works :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Because that is the way the world works. You compete at work to get a better paying position, You compete in high school sports with the hope of getting a college scholarship, etc. The one area I do not agree with is the policy of giving every child that shows up an award. Then , doing well, has no special meaning and , I feel, sets all those kids up for failure later in life when doing well means getting ahead in life or not. Jmo


Itbeso, you got that right! When my oldest was in competitive gymnastics they would give rewards out to 50%, meaning if there were 50 girls in a level, then 25 of them got awards! Now consider that there were something like 8 different competitive levels, awards for each event (4 events)per level, an all around award per level, and a team award per level, that means there were somewhere around 50 different award classifications. It was insane to the point that a competition lasted 4 to 6 hours with 2 hours of that time spent sitting around while they presented awards to all of these girls. But you are correct, these kids expect to get something for just showing up, but it's not all the kids fault, the parents of these kids are ten times worse. My daughter thought it was "stupid" to get 23rd place for something, and she didn't even want it unless she was top 5. But that's all in the parenting and how these kids are raised. But we could start a whole other thread on that subject..........:wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> *Instinctive*, Wood riser Recurve bolt down limbs no ILF allowed, carbon arrows, split finger or 3 under


Ok...calling a class Instinctive annoys me :wink:

It only adds confusion to an aiming technique that can't be proven with 100% certainty that the archer is aiming that way or not.

They should come up with a different name for that class :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Ok...calling a class Instinctive annoys me :wink:
> 
> It only adds confusion to an aiming technique that can't be proven with 100% certainty that the archer is aiming that way or not.
> 
> ...



In UK we had similar div called H/T (Hunting Tackle) but they used wood arrows, problem is Barebow is already taken and I guess WA3D want to steer clear of names with Hunting used.

If the Americans took part in WA3D maybe they would have some influence to change it from Instinctive to Trad Recurve.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> If the Americans took part in WA3D maybe they would have some influence to change it from Instinctive to Trad Recurve.


What would it take...I'm guessing more participation by American archers?

Trad Recurve sounds great :wink:

I'm curious...why would WA3D want to stay clear of names with hunting in them when the archers are shooting at foam animals? Is hunting really considered a bad thing there?

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

A great discussion but totally pointless, sad to say. looking at all the compound classes at the shoots I go to, it's just stupid. Most of them have 2 or 3 people in anyway. You need 3 compound classes, Limited and Unlimited and Bowhunter fingers (a bare compound), a Freestyle class for the Oly type rigs, a barebow class the 2 wooden arrow classes, Longbow and Recurve. You should fit into a class, not make the class fit you.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Why have a division for equipment where only a few guys show? Why do only a few of them show up? Because there is no equipment division for them? Until the creation of the Longbow division, (flawed or not) NFAA has made it pretty clear that their attitude has been that they wish that we would all just go away and quit bugging them. Fortunately that attitude seems to be changing.

Too many awards and they are too expensive? Fine. If a shooter wins, and the trophy is THAT darned important to him, he can pay the cost of it, no mark up. Otherwise all he gets is the paper cert and his score put into the records.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> A great discussion but totally pointless, sad to say.


Ahhh..it very well maybe...BUT...change starts with discussion and than if enough people agree and take action.

I personally feel with the recent increase interest in archery...now may be the perfect time to start making changes and really try to reach out to some new archers.



Bigjono said:


> looking at all the compound classes at the shoots I go to, it's just stupid.


LOL...my thoughts exactly :wink:



Bigjono said:


> You should fit into a class, not make the class fit you.


I definitely agree...especially if your main goal is competition...but...I do like to see some reasonable individual classes.

I wouldn't take competition very seriously if there was only one class where everyone competed against everyone with no regards to equipment choice. For example...compounds with sights and releases against trad bows with no sights. I have competed in situations like that....but it was more for fun...because even though I knew I could beat many of the compound shooters...I was not going to be able to keep with the top compound shooters.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bender said:


> Fine. If a shooter wins, and the trophy is THAT darned important to him, he can pay the cost of it, no mark up. Otherwise all he gets is the paper cert and his score put into the records.


:thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I wouldn't take competition very seriously if there was only one class where everyone competed against everyone with no regards to equipment choice. For example...compounds with sights and releases against trad bows with no sights. I have competed in situations like that....but it was more for fun...because even though I knew I could beat many of the compound shooters...I was not going to be able to keep with the top compound shooters.

Ray :shade:[/QUOTE]

I agree with that, the compounds are another division entirely but the recurves and longbows only need 3 classes too. You are right, archery has never been so popular (apart from at Agincourt maybe) so the federations should jump on this, make it simple and inclusive for those wanting to compete. Put up too many barriers and people will take their leisure dollars elsewhere.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

In the ASA..ALL traditional shooters are lumped together whether they are shooting recurves,longbow,primitives regardless of age or sex.....I don't personally like shooting against children or women...even though some of the women domvery well...


Dewayne


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

If you win the state indoor shoot in PA all you get is a patch saying state champion) and a certificate. Most folks seem pleased with just that. Mine goes in a box, but others wear the patches proudly on there shooting shirt. Its not a great prize, but it serves its purpose well. They only thing that never made any sense is in some classes they have many flights. If you win your flight, its pretty much luck of the draw. Kinda silly if you ask me. Prizes don't have to be expensive. 

Dewayne, It would be nice if ASA did break it down to Male, Female, and Youth. They might get a better turnout. I'm sure some of those females and kids don't like shooting against someone like you to. :smile:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I asked the ASA that very question and they were not willing to break up the class because it wasn't enough participation...kind of a catch 22 huh???

The Classic I went to had a troop of boy scouts at the bags on Sunday probably 12-15 boys and I asked them why they didn't participate and their leader said that very thing.


Dewayne


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

So someone explain to me why it is such a big deal to have the "D" curve with no reflex-deflex when strung but there are no rules for the style of grip which gives such an advantage to having a consistent grip placement in the longbow division? The grip on a Fox Triple Crown looks to be very similar to that of an Olympic recurve and it seems to me that would be such a bigger advantage than the reflex-deflex issue. Just curious and pretty green (2 years shooting) and looking into shooting some in the longbow division next summer.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

An astute observation Bill.
Steve Morley told me that those IFAA rules are a hold over from when they were seeking to preserve an historical sense of what a Longbow "truly" is. Given the advent of contoured grips, the Stealth D profile, and the creation of their own Historical Equipment Division it is pretty clear that their longbow rules need some work. Anyway the NFAA basically just copied the IFAA rules.


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## ArcheryMachine (Apr 20, 2003)

So is this new longbow class going to be available in Vegas this year?

I've been shooting compounds competitively for 20 years and I just recently switched to traditional.

Plan on going to Vegas just to shoot and have fun but would love to be able to compete in this class.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

There is no trad or longbow class at Vegas but you could shoot barebow. 

Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

i wound up saying screw it and bought a "Rule Proof Bow" for $100. :laugh:










however..as it turns out?..i can't compete in primitive class cause my wood arrows have plastic nocks. :laugh:

and i can't compete in longbow class with this selfbow cause the holmegaard design doesn't comply with the d-shape ruling..but only on the top limb. :laugh:

so basically?..to be "legally within IFAA/NFAA rule compliance"?...i would be competing against guys shooting top shelf recurves in Bowhunter Recurve class with the bow and arrow pictured above...whoops!...i'm wrong again..as bowhunter recurve specifies that the arrow must be shot off the shelf..and mine has none...so that puts me competeing against the guys in RU class (recurve unaided)..who are shooting top shelf Gucci ILF Recurves and $400 a dozen CF arrows...i win. :laugh:

but if i ever do decide to shoot competitively again?..i'm bring a secret weapon with me...one that doen't give a tinkers dam about any rules they make...

*"SKILL"* 

Buwhahahahahahahahahahaha.. :laugh:


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I sent an email to 3 rivers archers this week asking for their recommendations for an NFAA compliant longbow that was at least 66 inches in length and in the 45 to 50 pound range. I stressed the importance and even described the D rule of the NFAA requirement. Today I get a reply: 35 pound Montana. The Montana's I have seen have just enough reflex to make them illegal. And yet it is recommended by company that specializes in recurves and longbows.

Yeah, I know, I am beating this dead horse again. But these NFAA rules are designed more to keep people from shooting this class than encourage it. And yet they wonder why the attendance has been steadily decreasing.


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## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

The montanas I have seen would pass the NFAA rules. There is very little reflex on an unstrung Montana and none when braced. If a fox or 21st passes the montana will pass easily


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

2413gary said:


> I 'm workin on that stabilizer thing if it passes I'll be the most hated guy in the Trad recurve class. (I can live with it)
> Gary


Then shoot the bare bow class...leave amtrad alone


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

I agree that the Montana would be fine. 35 pounds is too low though, to reach the long targets. I would suggest 45 pounds unless you have a long draw. I shoot 42# @ 29". - lbg


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