# Spin vanes are tearing off



## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

Are you left or right handed? You want spin vanes to make a "Y" shape for best clearance.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Playing the odds, I'm assuming you are right handed. It looks like the vanes are smacking into the riser (and quite possibly into the clicker blade) and ripping.


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## saxonbow (Feb 14, 2011)

DarrenHJA said:


> My spin vanes are tearing off at the front part, probably a problem with clearance. I have yet to try talcum power test on them but many people told me it's my arrow nock placement that is the problem. I'm just not sure what is causing them to rip, please advise.
> View attachment 2170820
> 
> 
> ...


yes it looks like a nock alinement issue to me,thats clearliy clicker damage.


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## saxonbow (Feb 14, 2011)

saxonbow said:


> yes it looks like a nock alinement issue to me,thats clearliy clicker damage.


just put lipstick on top edge of the vane near your riser the one above your button shoot then look at the riser and clicker for lipstick marks


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

well, the red fletching is the one that is torn. 

So if he is right handed, 

Looking at his nock photo, that torn vane is downward when he is shooting it, if he is nocking the way that arrow is fletched/nocked. 

That would mean he is hitting the rest or riser. The blue fletching would be torn if hitting the clicker. 


If he is left handed, then the red fletching would be hitting the clicker blade. 


if he is using the yellow as the cock vane and right handed, then his nock is not set correctly with the vanes for shooting. 




Chris


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

I had similar problem and was using hoyt super rest. I switch to magnetic flip
rest and brought out the plunger out. Problem solved.


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

DarrenHJA said:


> My spin vanes are tearing off at the front part, probably a problem with clearance. I have yet to try talcum power test on them but many people told me it's my arrow nock placement that is the problem. I'm just not sure what is causing them to rip, please advise.
> View attachment 2170820
> 
> 
> ...


I love a puzzle.
So, assuming a RH archer, yellow vane cock, which points away from the riser, the top photo shows what a RH archer would see from the back of the arrow as it fits on the string. The red is pointing up, therefore little opportunity for rest damage on red vane. 
If archer is LH, arrow would load 180 degrees rotated, which puts red down, and ample opportunity for clearance issues with the rest.
So, RH or LH archer?
We would like to know: Data provided in dchan's sticky at the top of the FITA page.
Draw weight at your draw length, arrow length: nock to end of shaft, point weight etc.
Butch


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Checking first assumption: Are you shooting recurve or compound?


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

ButchD said:


> We would like to know: Data provided in dchan's sticky at the top of the FITA page.
> Draw weight at your draw length, arrow length: nock to end of shaft, point weight etc.
> Butch


The first thing that must be given by OP before any lengthy discussion.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

I am shooting recurve, Nock to end of shaft length (AMO) is 29.25 inches. Point weight 80 grams. Shooting ACC 3L-04/750 arrows.

Using a shibuya DX plunger and shibuya arrow rest. Win&Win clicker.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

I tried aligning my nocks to the be on the same level as the yellow fletching, but I noticed that my arrows are flying off towards the left. A whole lot of deviation of the flight of the arrow.

Yes I am right handed. In the image, the yellow is towards left and right is top. That's how I am nocking my arrows currently


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

airwolfipsc said:


> I had similar problem and was using hoyt super rest. I switch to magnetic flip
> rest and brought out the plunger out. Problem solved.


A lil bit of the red fletching is getting stuck in the magnetic flipper of the Shibuya rest every now and then.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

ButchD said:


> We would like to know: Data provided in dchan's sticky at the top of the FITA page.
> Draw weight at your draw length, arrow length: nock to end of shaft, point weight etc.
> Butch


Draw weight at draw length is 28lbs


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Interesting.
The red arrow is on the top, yet it hits the rest. 
First, have you shot some bare shafts to compare to fletched? My experience would show these arrows to be quite stiff, would suggest the powder foot spray test for contact, except, we know you have contact, the arrow's fletched end is striking the rest. Ideally, the fletched end would be cycling away from the riser. 
It would seem that your arrows are also dropping, at the loose, in order to get low enough to strike the rest.
I would think that a video of the arrow as it passes the riser would prove interesting. 
Are you familiar with the basic procedure of the bareshaft test?
At 10-20 yards, on a large target butt, shoot three fletched, and three shafts identical to the fletched, but without the fletch. If the bareshafts stay on the butt at 10 yards, go to 20 or so. Check out the Archer's Reference at this link: http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/ArchersReference/archref_05.pdf
This will walk you through the test.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

ButchD said:


> Interesting.
> The red arrow is on the top, yet it hits the rest.
> First, have you shot some bare shafts to compare to fletched? My experience would show these arrows to be quite stiff, would suggest the powder foot spray test for contact, except, we know you have contact, the arrow's fletched end is striking the rest. Ideally, the fletched end would be cycling away from the riser.
> It would seem that your arrows are also dropping, at the loose, in order to get low enough to strike the rest.
> ...


I am currently having help from a Level 1 Coach, I've shot bare shafts and were working on getting a tighter grouping, he has also moved my nocking points upwards and added twists into my string to obtain the best results. So far so good, moving closer to a tighter grouping of bare shafts and fletched shafts. I'm currently shooting only indoors of a FITA 18m face. Yes, my arrows are too stiff but I don't even know why this wasn't pointed out to me when I went to the Archery Shop, those guys picked the shaft size for me. 

I'll definitely try out the talcum powder test to assess my fletching problem. 

However the bare shaft test is still ongoing, hasn't been completed. And unfortunately I have a regional University competition this coming Sunday, with a not so fully fixed bow.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

Depends how stiff..stiff arrows will group very well instead of weak. Excellent choice would be
to get the correct spine like 650 then go down 1 step stiffer.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

750 spine 29.25" Arrow, ACC (parallel shaft), only 80gn points, 28lbs OTF. Those are probably quite a bit stiff.

My calculation for a proper spine shaft would be closer to 900-950.

You say it leaves bits of the vane in the magnetic rest.. I would say the arrow is not bending enough and the tail is just slapping against the riser. Doesn't mean the arrows won't group well. Limbwalker mentioned somewhere that during one of his Olympic trials he noticed he was impacting his rest. Didn't seem to keep him from making the team.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

DarrenHJA said:


> However the bare shaft test is still ongoing, hasn't been completed. And unfortunately I have a regional University competition this coming Sunday, with a not so fully fixed bow.


If you are having clearance problems all bets are off on getting an accurate bare shaft test..

If the arrows are grouping well even with the clearance problem, just have lots of extra vanes for repairs and just shoot the competition. not having a perfect tune is not the end of the world.. Just go have fun, shoot your best and come back to the tuning later.

DC


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

dchan said:


> If you are having clearance problems all bets are off on getting an accurate bare shaft test..
> 
> If the arrows are grouping well even with the clearance problem, just have lots of extra vanes for repairs and just shoot the competition. not having a perfect tune is not the end of the world.. Just go have fun, shoot your best and come back to the tuning later.
> 
> DC


So I should continue on the tests after the competition. All pressure on me since I have the highest score for a Portsmouth round in the uni club in history. I just hope all goes well...


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

First point is that spin vanes are usually fitted at equal (120deg) angles. There is no "cock feather". In general as long as a vane isn't directly pointing into the riser clearance isn't a problem. You can always rotate the nock slightly if necessary to get a bit more clearance.
Second point is your fletching length. When the arrow leaves the string the nock is about in the plane of the bow and the shaft at the riser clear of the bow. As the arrow moves forward the back of the shaft flexes away from the handle maintaining the clearance. If the fletching is too long (for its height) there is no way the fletching is going to clear the riser. What the photo looks like is that the slope of the fletching height (reducing the clearance) is greater than the gap created by the shaft flexing (increasing the clearance). This is why damage is not being done at the front of the fletching but about a third of the way down. Solution could be tr try shorter fletchings or (less preferred option) increase the brace height.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

Joe T said:


> First point is that spin vanes are usually fitted at equal (120deg) angles. There is no "cock feather". In general as long as a vane isn't directly pointing into the riser clearance isn't a problem. You can always rotate the nock slightly if necessary to get a bit more clearance.
> Second point is your fletching length. When the arrow leaves the string the nock is about in the plane of the bow and the shaft at the riser clear of the bow. As the arrow moves forward the back of the shaft flexes away from the handle maintaining the clearance. If the fletching is too long (for its height) there is no way the fletching is going to clear the riser. What the photo looks like is that the slope of the fletching height (reducing the clearance) is greater than the gap created by the shaft flexing (increasing the clearance). This is why damage is not being done at the front of the fletching but about a third of the way down. Solution could be tr try shorter fletchings or (less preferred option) increase the brace height.


I'm currently using Gas Pro Indoor Efficient vanes at 4.75 inches. Permitted for competitions. My brace height was just touching 7 last time before any twists were added, the my coach added lots of twists to bring the Brace height to 8, which is optimum for my bow. It's interesting to know that there is no cock feather for spin vanes as per said by you, not saying you're wrong but many other archers told me there is one but depending on clearance I should turn the nock to suit me.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

If you are shooting a "traditional" bow with little or no bow window then you increase the angle between the vanes facing the bow (~150deg ?)to give you more clearance and the third vane pointing away from the bow is the cock feather. I've no idea if anyone has tried using large spin wings on a trad bow. 

say you have 2" from the nock groove to back of fletching. Add the 4.75" fletch length. Then the front of fletching is 6.75" from the nock groove. The button is maybe 1" from the front of the riser (the edge closest to you) so with an 8" brace height the front of the fletching is 8-1-6.75 = 0.25" behind the riser at brace height. With a 7" brace height the fletching front must have been about level with the rest! Zero clearance whatever fiddling about with the bow or arrow you try.

As a quick fix for your indoor competition just tear off the (red) fletch that's the problem and shoot with 2 fletchings. For a Portsmouth that will work better than having endless riser collisions.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

Is that possible? To shoot with two fletching a on the arrows?? I will need to try this one day


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

DarrenHJA said:


> Is that possible? To shoot with two fletching a on the arrows?? I will need to try this one day


With spin wings 2 and 3 fletched arrows will happily group together at 70 meters. Never tried with only 1 ☺

At 20 yards you won't see much difference between fletched and bareshaft arrows (that's why the standard bareshaft method at 20 yards is a waste of time, good for bow set up only ).


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Any thoughts on how the top vane is hitting the rest?


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

Possibly when the arrow spun as it left the nocking point, the red fletch goes under and hits the magnetic flap. Just a wild guess


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

ButchD said:


> Any thoughts on how the top vane is hitting the rest?


Don't think you can assume that. You have bits flying everywhere and presumable the vanes bending/folding every which way.

c/o Dennis https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NtopWiMjqgM


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

DarrenHJA said:


> Possibly when the arrow spun as it left the nocking point, the red fletch goes under and hits the magnetic flap. Just a wild guess


the arrow doesnt spin until its a away from the bow. From nock to end of stab, it stays the way its nocked. It would not spin from nocking point to riser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MugebeCK20g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2uc_BJm4Es


Chris


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> the arrow doesnt spin until its a away from the bow. From nock to end of stab, it stays the way its nocked. It would not spin from nocking point to riser.


Yes it does. My arrows spin about 30 degrees before the fletching passes the riser/button/rest.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

straat said:


> Yes it does. My arrows spin about 30 degrees before the fletching passes the riser/button/rest.


did you watch the two slow motion videos i posted of arrow flight?

here is another, 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8sFM

and another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI_17jgEdAI

the arrow does not spin between nock release and riser. 


Chris


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

ButchD said:


> Any thoughts on how the top vane is hitting the rest?


Second thoughts:
Assuming the nock orientation in the previous photo then the (lower) blue fletching dragging over the face of the riser could rotate the arrow in a clockwise direction rotating the red (upper) fletching downwards and into the riser. You would expect the blue fletching to be damaged as well though. Anything has to be a guess.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

However the blue isn't damaged whatsoever, how will I fix this problem :S


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

DarrenHJA said:


> However the blue isn't damaged whatsoever, how will I fix this problem :S


From the nock orientation photo it looks like the blue fletching is going straight into the riser and the red fletching is going straight up? If the photo is upside down then it's the red fletching that's going to be the lower fletching and the one that get smashed and the blue fletching is going to be the undamaged "cock" fletching.

Don't know what kind of arrows you have. Looks like aluminium?
If you want to use massive fletchings then I would use feathers (which deform nicely going over the riser).
If you want a large indoor curved plastic fletching then I would go for 2 13/16" spin wings.


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## Neo888 (Feb 4, 2009)

You can try to change your nocking point height. I was having a same issue with top vane tear with too low nock point, and arrow went under the rest to cause similar damage you posted. Bare shaft was also indicating at that time that nocking is too low(rear end low on the target) moved nocking point up on the string until bare shaft impacted parrallel, and fletching damage disappeared.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKau3tWWYqQ

Slow motion at the clicker at 44 sec, 2:00 and 2:21 

and at the last frame 2:27 showing the yellow fletch very nearly passing the clicker without spinning yet.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

The frequency of the arrow is too high, which generally corresponds to a shaft that is too stiff (although the two effects can be separated). The arrow flexes in the vertical plane as well as the horizontal plane. The vertical flex is aggravated by a nock point that is either too high or too low with respect to the square position. In the same way that too-high frequency will make the tail of the arrow pass closer to the riser in the horizontal plane, it will also make the tail pass closer to the shelf in the vertical plane. The effect is less pronounced than in the horizontal plane, because the motion is restricted by the nock points on the string, but the effect still exists. When the frequency is too high, it is entirely possible for the tail of the arrow to pass below the arrow rest. I've seen this clearly in some high-speed video I have taken (although I cannot find the files at this moment). I've experienced a case, when the shaft was too stiff, where the tail of the arrow actually struck the shelf while leaving the bow. Here are some things you can try, starting with the least expensive and easiest.

1. Drop the height of your nock point. This seems counter-intuitive, but dropping the nock height may reduce the amount of input energy to the shaft in the vertical plane, and thus reduce the deflection in that direction. A long shot, but cheap and easy to try.

2. Increase the point weight. This will reduce the frequency of the arrow, perhaps enough for the vanes the clear the rest.

3. Get new, weaker shafts. This will reduce the frequency of the arrow.

In all cases, you will need to re-tune.


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

Just get the right spine and be done with it.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

Joe T said:


> From the nock orientation photo it looks like the blue fletching is going straight into the riser and the red fletching is going straight up? If the photo is upside down then it's the red fletching that's going to be the lower fletching and the one that get smashed and the blue fletching is going to be the undamaged "cock" fletching.
> 
> Don't know what kind of arrows you have. Looks like aluminium?
> If you want to use massive fletchings then I would use feathers (which deform nicely going over the riser).
> If you want a large indoor curved plastic fletching then I would go for 2 13/16" spin wings.


I'm using Aluminum/Carbon arrows namely the Easton ACC. 
I only shoot 18m indoors.
Those gas pro fletching I use are 4.75 inches for indoor efficiency.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

DK Lieu said:


> The frequency of the arrow is too high, which generally corresponds to a shaft that is too stiff (although the two effects can be separated). The arrow flexes in the vertical plane as well as the horizontal plane. The vertical flex is aggravated by a nock point that is either too high or too low with respect to the square position. In the same way that too-high frequency will make the tail of the arrow pass closer to the riser in the horizontal plane, it will also make the tail pass closer to the shelf in the vertical plane. The effect is less pronounced than in the horizontal plane, because the motion is restricted by the nock points on the string, but the effect still exists. When the frequency is too high, it is entirely possible for the tail of the arrow to pass below the arrow rest. I've seen this clearly in some high-speed video I have taken (although I cannot find the files at this moment). I've experienced a case, when the shaft was too stiff, where the tail of the arrow actually struck the shelf while leaving the bow. Here are some things you can try, starting with the least expensive and easiest.
> 
> 1. Drop the height of your nock point. This seems counter-intuitive, but dropping the nock height may reduce the amount of input energy to the shaft in the vertical plane, and thus reduce the deflection in that direction. A long shot, but cheap and easy to try.
> 
> ...


I am currently still doing the bare shaft test and changing the nocking points height, it's not really perfected yet but I still have a long way more to go.

I'm currently using 80grams points. 100grams is the highest for the type of arrows I use.

I won't be getting new shafts, I already have 15 arrows of same shaft size and would be costly to replace.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

Joe T said:


> With spin wings 2 and 3 fletched arrows will happily group together at 70 meters. Never tried with only 1 ☺
> 
> At 20 yards you won't see much difference between fletched and bareshaft arrows (that's why the standard bareshaft method at 20 yards is a waste of time, good for bow set up only ).


Joe, today in Sussex for that Uni competition I shot with 2 fletchings a instead of 3, ripped off the red top fletching because it was giving me a weird inconsistent grouping. Grouping seemed to improve when I shot with 2 fletchings on.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> did you watch the two slow motion videos i posted of arrow flight?
> 
> here is another,
> 
> ...


Did you see this video? (i'm sorry for the crappy quality and clear vane) 





The arrow does spin between nock release and the plunger, otherwise it would have hit the plunger...


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

DarrenHJA said:


> Joe, today in Sussex for that Uni competition I shot with 2 fletchings a instead of 3, ripped off the red top fletching because it was giving me a weird inconsistent grouping. Grouping seemed to improve when I shot with 2 fletchings on.


:thumbs_up Brave decision and a positive outcome.

As relatively cheap options I would suggest:
a) switching to a smaller fletching size e.g. 2" spin wings
b) increase point size to 100 grain.
c) redo the bow setup from scratch (including nock point? brace height? ). For 20 yards you don't need a fantastically tuned set up. You need good clearance to start with. Then adjust nock point and draw weight to try to get the bare and fletched shafts fairly close together. Leave any playing about with buttons (center shot and spring pressure) for another day.

PS the idea that for indoors the larger the fletching the better has no more validity then the idea of the larger arrow diameter the better.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

Joe T said:


> :thumbs_up Brave decision and a positive outcome.
> 
> As relatively cheap options I would suggest:
> a) switching to a smaller fletching size e.g. 2" spin wings
> ...


I'd like to keep the spin wings size if possible, I will continue the nocking point and bare shaft test. Brace height is perfected already at 8 inches for my riser. 

I'll be going back to using 3 fletchings for the testing as having 2 fletchings on makes my arrow fly up and down like how a whale swims.


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## DarrenHJA (Dec 27, 2014)

I have already fixed the various problems I had experienced with my bow, thank you to everyone that helped me with my problem. Won't need to buy new points or new shafts!


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