# Full - soft 15



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

We apologize for making liars out of so many claiming the most accurate bow.


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

Mass??

Looks like a tank. Like the camo though myself and the parrallel limbs with a ....how long IS that riser?


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

Very nice!! May have to scrap up some cash Jim.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Hey, congrats Jim.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well I'll admit that looks like a pretty nice bow.....

I had always thought that a 40" parallel limb bow with around an 8" brace height and a straight neutural riser might just be one of the more accurate designs out there. Low and behold this just about looks like what I had in mind. I know you built it for hunting but I have to think that might me a x-killa for sure..


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*One Brute of a bow !*

Jim,

Great to finally see a pic of your bow in all its glory.
Maybe, it should have been called the War Bow because it looks like it could survive one with ease !
Have never seen a bow that's, overall, that well built before.
My heavy Bowman is hell for strong but doesn't have the strength of limb attachment to the riser like your bow does.
Your bow looks to be the strongest compound ever made anywhere.
Some may say it's ugly but, to my eyes, it's beautiful !
I predict, you will have some buyers.  
I would love to have one in my treestand this fall.  


Sag.


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## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

Looks good!

Now just put some triple track cams on it and wow


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Moon looks great....what about finger-shooters?*

Jungle,

Your long ata and higher-brace looks great for a hard-core finger-shooter like me!

Is this 42 1/2" model the longest ata you envision in the near future?

I have a 30" draw but might be able to shorten-up to 29", but a cam designed for up to 31-32" would sure be great, along with that forgiving brace-height and ata!

I have the $$$ to buy, no problem.....but want to make sure that the version I order will be your version of the "ultimate finger-bow".....

What is the wall and draw-force curve like on that Darton CPS cam? What let-off %? Is there much valley or very short/non-existent valley?

Sorry for all the questions, my friend, but I have been following the previous thread on your fine bow and got REALLY fired-up seeing the pic of actual finished bow!

When commercially available? Delivery-time estimate?

Thank you!
Richard


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

TexasGuy,

Had a feeling you would like it.  
Kind of makes you forget the Pro Star, doesn't it ?  


Sag.


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*ProStar? What's a ProStar? haha! *

Hi Sag! 

I think you and I and Capo must be the biggest accuracy/stability/build-quality fella's on these forums! 

Yes, clearly a ProStar could not hold a candle to this bow!

My understanding (from the threads I've seen on AT) is that the Darton CPS cam is a gentle cam with a decent valley and "not-too-rock-hard" wall....in 65% or less let-off, sounds like it may be ideal for a finger-shooter! Hopefully, Jungle can give some insight into that!

I'm just struggling with the 29" max-draw limit.  

Innovative bowyers like "Jungle" deserve all the credit for expanding the horizons of our sport.....I love heavy mass-weight, long ata and high brace....

As I sit here typing, Dave Barnsdale is installing a set of Eric Grigg's GAS string/cables and 55% let-off TriStar wheels on my old Redman....46" ata, 8 5/8" brace......laser-accurate (but with original Redman wheels, only did 260 IBO).....Jungle's bow would significantly increase my speed while remaining ultra-stable and still very forgiving.....and undoubtedly MUCH LESS shot- noise and recoil with those parallel Barnsdale limbs!  

It's really too bad I'm such an "unexcitable" guy, isn't it?  

Richard


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

TexasGuy,

You're right about that.
We like our bows built well, don't we !  
Capo is a great friend and knows his equipment very well.
Better than even Ol' Sag.  
We have shared many emails talking about all the fine equipment out there.
Maybe, I should send my old Red Man to Dave for an overhaul.  
Sounds like your's will be a great bow with the new GAS strings, cables, and TriStar wheels.
Jbird likes them pretty well also.
Jbird is a quality kind of guy like us too.  
Yes, the Moon bow is pretty exciting !


Sag.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jungle said:


> We apologize for making liars out of so many claiming the most accurate bow.


Wow Jim. You finally finished it and I have to admit, it's a beauty. I think others are wrong about the camo. I think it looks great.

I know it's crass but I have to ask about final price and ordering information. (It's OK if you would prefer to PM me that information.)


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

yeah, the bow definatly turned out better(visually) than i thought it would. Nothing else i can really say, it looks great. I do agree though, a "X" type cam system on that bow would be on accurate motha of a bow.


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## bohntr (Jun 3, 2002)

Looks like moon bows are for target shooters and finger shooters. Hunting and 3d, it will be way to slow slowwwwww. My hunting arrows will be going about 220 f/s. 3D it might get 255 fps. 
I don't know I think you may have cut your buying archers down to a small# maybe a couple handfulls.
I am not saying speed is everything but when a hunter is tring to get as much KE as possible while remaining accurate, I don't know but I think you missed it.

Or maybe i missed it, what part of the archery market were you aiming for.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Trushot,

I haven’t weighed the complete bow, but will do soon, it’ll be a touch over 6 lbs. The riser is 32” between the pivots.

Texasguy,

Because of the flat limb angle, even w/ a longer limb the ATA isn’t much more, and the BH becomes high. 

This is as close as it gets to a finger shooting bow on this handle, although admittedly it would be better a few inches longer…IMO, it’s about as short as I’d ever go for fingers. The cam maxes out at just over 29” DL, with a relatively soft wall, the module is easily modified for a softer (finger shooters) wall (valley), this has the affect of lengthening the DL, and modified so – will net over 30” DL easily, although speed doesn’t improve proportionately.

The “soft” cam is beautiful and smooth, they are tweaking the low letoff modules, which are going to be available again soon, but for right now – it’s 75%.

I’m happy you like the look of it; I think you would like it as a finger bow…and, yes, I’ve shot fingers enough to know what it takes.

I’ve already shipped everything I had limbs for, but expect more soon (you’re not going to get a firm date from me as I have no control over this). I hope to have more ready in a couple of weeks.

Baldmountain, 

I hope to have the web site finished off by the weekend, at which time I’ll post a link – there you will find the answers to your questions. (See…I’m not crazy after all, just a slow learner)  

Bohntr,

It’s designed for those that have been there, and done that - with all the hype. If you think you’re getting something for nothing with a high “ratio” bow…your probably right about this model.

You said a mouthful with “trying to get as much KE as possible while remaining accurate”. Perhaps you haven’t read the 10 million odd words I have wrote on this subject.



I will get back here to answer questions as often as possible, please bear with me as I’ve got both my hands full.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Another shot for those shooting jig-sawed extrusions.


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

Wow, did you hire some photographer from Playboy to capture those curves on the riser?


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Sorry. One more silly question...

I can't see from the pictures but please tell me that there is a place to screw in a long stabilizer. I know you designed the bow as a hunter but I read the specs and all I see is target bow. (All the things that make a stable hunting platform also make a great target bow.)


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

It’s drilled and tapped both front and back for stabilizer attachment.

Being a guide nowadays means that you should also be a good (clever) photographer…I’d like to comment more on that, but it’d surely pi$$ off too many that fit the “status quo”.

You will NEVER convince me that a good hunting bow is anything BUT an accurate target bow – minus a few bells and whistles.

JR.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jungle said:


> It’s drilled and tapped both front and back for stabilizer attachment.


Phew! OK, good.



Jungle said:


> Being a guide nowadays means that you should also be a good (clever) photographer…I’d like to comment more on that, but it’d surely pi$$ off too many that fit the “status quo”.






Jungle said:


> You will NEVER convince me that a good hunting bow is anything BUT an accurate target bow – minus a few bells and whistles.
> 
> JR.


I agree.

I'll keep an eye out for the webpage.


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*One more question re: draw-length*

Jim,

Is the 29" max-draw measured at "true-draw" (to the center of the plunger-button hole) or AMO draw-length (true-draw plus 1 3/4")??.....  

I know Dave Barnsdale measures true-draw on the bows he now makes.....I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it what you are doing, also. 

Take care,
Richard


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

I am having a hard time understading I guess..

I havn't really been following the threads, so maybe you can sum it up for me.

It is IBO of 285. Weighs over 6 lbs, and it costs alomost $2,000.00

So, it is slower, heavier, and 3 times the cost of most anything on the market.

It better be able to hit baby asprin @ 90 meters!!!   

Adam


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I must say, Your bow is beautiful all put together Jim. But it's still to heavy and to expensive for the likes of me.


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

Any chance of a higher cable guard. I hate those right there always get poked by them when letting down.


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

Nice looking bow, it looks like it could take some serious abuse! What is the total weight?

Also just a few ideas on any future models. 

1. Since it is a brute go with a bit more speed oriented cam & offer some serious poundage (80-100#'s). I would bet you might be able to tap into the Africa Big Game guys looking for a serious alternative to some of the "Safari" type bows on the market. This bow looks like it could handle a serious speed oriented hybrid cam with high poundage & I bet guys like Duggaboy would love to have such a bow! 

2. Design a model for a large percentage of the hunting market who likes a medium ATA bow, a little lighter riser design, and a little more IBO speed out of it. A bow about 36" falling in around 4lbs mass weight would be a great whitetail hunting bow here in the USA. 

Look like your on your way, I am glad to finally see the pictures! 

Good Luck


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Ian said:


> Any chance of a higher cable guard. I hate those right there always get poked by them when letting down.


That's why you should never let down. 

Look closer. The cable guard doesn't extend past the string more than about a 1/4 or maybe 1/2 inch. With a D loop and a release it is highly unlikely that you are going to hit the cable guard while letting down. The only way that could possibly happen is if the bow yanks your arm out of your sholder while letting down. But Jim assures us that that will not happen with these cams. (See the Full Moon post for a full discussion of the cam choice.)


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Richard,

The draw length is measured AMO. It sounds like you have a 30” DL…or is that 31 ¾ AMO? Check your PM’s.


Adam,

In a nutshell, the premise is: Most bows shoot acceptably well with perfect backyard shooting, not many shoot well with less than perfect – in field shots. This bow is designed to shoot well for that handful of shots – the actual ones we all practice for every year, and the ones so many bowhunters screw up regularly.

Slow (ratio slow) equals consistent launch/easy tuning, forgiving of form variation.
Heavy equals strength - and inertia without add ons.
Expensive equals…sorry, ain’t going there again.

I don’t know about baby aspirins, but it sure works well on moose, deer, and elk (amongst others).  

Confusion, ignorance, and inexperience have many thinking the backyard is representative of what they can do in the field. That’s funny.

Mad…you had me worried when I scrolled down and saw your avatar…does this mean “live and let live”? Thanks for the kind words. When I get some lighter limbs, I’ll e-mail ya, because I do want to see what you think when you’ve shot it. (No…I’m not trying to solicit a sale, just interested in your impression, as I do believe you enjoy flinging arrows, and take it fairly seriously.)

Ian,

Me too! It’s there to balance the deflection from top to bottom, and minimize the offset needed. The photo shows the bow w/ a full-length cable guard rod, which isn’t trimmed, when trimmed; it ends well inside the string. With a release, you’d really have to get out of control on the letdown to stab yourself as Baldmountain says.

Orion,

Thank-you for the suggestions, I have referenced our past correspondence several times, and appreciate the time and constructive comments you put forth.

I don’t have an official weight yet, it’s something just over 6 lbs.

There is no PDF limit, and yes, the bow’s already seen the Dark Continent. I’ll be playing with everything right on down to a sub 6” BH, and yes, there’s a “medium” cam that stores more energy for a given PDF, in fact if it didn’t draw so smooth, it could arguably fit the bill for “hard”…I have something else in mind for “hard” though, and the ratio guys out there. The soft 15 is but one combo available on the Full handle, I can only put them together and test them so fast, and I had to start out with the one I believe in most…from there I head towards popular…and away from good shooting.

The spec you mention for a good whitetail bow may work in the US, but it doesn’t work that well up here, even though many of the fine (US) archers that I’ve guided shoot them and tell me the same thing…I’m confused, and I think I’ll be sick if I hear another excuse for pi$$ poor shooting. I guess lots of folks don’t demand that much out of themselves or their equipment…shame really, for the animals anyway. 

Please don’t get confused with my intent, it’s not that I don’t know what's popular, it’s that popular doesn’t necessarily mean good, no matter how many folks shoot them.  

JR.




All the bows built on the Full handle are “in the face” of what’s popular for a reason…that this statement is lost on so many makes me…worry. That this bow is so hard for so many to understand makes me…worry more.

Jim.


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Draw-length clarification....*

Jim,

Never got any PM's.....my PC has been acting up a bit on this end...

My true-draw is 28 3/4".....which, of course, is 30.5" AMO.....

That's why I was hoping your 29" max was true-draw.....

Your CPS cam-mods you mentioned earlier sound like it may make 30.5" AMO......but I will probably wait until Darton gets the tweaks worked-out in there 65% let-off modules for the CPS cam....I really gotta have the lowest let-off possible for a clean release with fingers.....shoot 55% wheels now and get a nice, crisp release!  

The rest of the spec on the "Soft-15" sound superb.....although I agree with you that 42 1/2" ata is right on the edge for fingers!  

Richard


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

I would disagree about slow= forgiving. I would suggest that too slow is less forgiving. 

Heavy, does not = strength. 

What does intertia have to do with the way a bow shoots under field conditons?

ADam


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

Adam check out the first thread on the full moon here
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115771

Jungle has pretty much described every goal and purpose of his bow lineup there. Losts or reading but it explains his thoughts in detail.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

> In a nutshell, the premise is: Most bows shoot acceptably well with perfect backyard shooting, not many shoot well with less than perfect – in field shots. This bow is designed to shoot well for that handful of shots – the actual ones we all practice for every year, and the ones so many bowhunters screw up regularly.


I kind of have to disagree with you about this. The shooter makes the bow. The bow doesn't make the shooter. I think if your a good shot(and if your planning on becoming a good bowhunter you should put the time in practicing to be a good shot, so you don't go around wounding animals all day) you can shoot any bow, any time, no matter what the conditions are. I can go buy a $350 PSE package and probably kill more animals because I'll have $1650 left over to go hunting with .


But none the less good luck on your endeavor and I hope I get to shoot one of your bows some day.


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

bluenova said:


> I kind of have to disagree with you about this. The shooter makes the bow. The bow doesn't make the shooter. I think if your a good shot(and if your planning on becoming a good bowhunter you should put the time in practicing to be a good shot, so you don't go around wounding animals all day) you can shoot any bow, any time, no matter what the conditions are. I can go buy a $350 PSE package and probably kill more animals because I'll have $1650 left over to go hunting with .
> 
> 
> But none the less good luck on your endeavor and I hope I get to shoot one of your bows some day.


 Well said.. And, I agree. Would be cool to shoot one regardless.

 

Adam


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

bluenova said:


> I kind of have to disagree with you about this. The shooter makes the bow. The bow doesn't make the shooter. I think if your a good shot(and if your planning on becoming a good bowhunter you should put the time in practicing to be a good shot, so you don't go around wounding animals all day) you can shoot any bow, any time, no matter what the conditions are. I can go buy a $350 PSE package and probably kill more animals because I'll have $1650 left over to go hunting with .
> 
> 
> But none the less good luck on your endeavor and I hope I get to shoot one of your bows some day.


Jim is a guide. He deals with people all the time that buy $350 PSE packages and miss the once in a lifetime shot because the bow doesn't perform in the field the way it performed in the guys backyard. Go read the hunting forum. There are a TON of posts about hunters finding dead anaimals because they were shot badly.

Jim's bow was designed to be a stable hunting platform so that if the hunter missed it was HIS fault and not the fault of a crappy bow.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

baldmountain said:


> Jim is a guide. He deals with people all the time that buy $350 PSE packages and miss the once in a lifetime shot because the bow doesn't perform in the field the way it performed in the guys backyard. Go read the hunting forum. There are a TON of posts about hunters finding dead anaimals because they were shot badly.
> 
> Jim's bow was designed to be a stable hunting platform so that if the hunter missed it was HIS fault and not the fault of a crappy bow.



Maybe you missed part of my post but I'll copy and paste it for you...


> The shooter makes the bow. The bow doesn't make the shooter. I think if your a good shot(and if your planning on becoming a good bowhunter you should put the time in practicing to be a good shot, so you don't go around wounding animals all day) you can shoot any bow, any time, no matter what the conditions are.


That being said. If the people Jim guides buy one of his bows that won't make them a good shooter. If they never go out and practice they will still wound that once in a life time animal whatever kind it may be. Unless the bow shoots for you I don't see any good points in your post.


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

I relate it to this. You practice shooting your lightweight rifle on a bench under a canopy out of the wind and the elements. Sure you can get the 1 inch groups there all day long. When the time comes and you have that moose at the same distance, and can't seem to put the round where it counts. If you only had some shooting sticks or maybe a bit heavier rifle to steady yourself in the cross wind then you could probably make the shot count. 

With the added weight, brace length and axle to axle the bow "helps" with the shot. Notice I said helps. The archer IS the main factor in shooting but, there are certain aspects that can help out a shooter.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

stinky1 said:


> I relate it to this. You practice shooting your lightweight rifle on a bench under a canopy out of the wind and the elements. Sure you can get the 1 inch groups there all day long. When the time comes and you have that moose at the same distance, and can't seem to put the round where it counts. If you only had some shooting sticks or maybe a bit heavier rifle to steady yourself in the cross wind then you could probably make the shot count.
> 
> With the added weight, brace length and axle to axle the bow "helps" with the shot. Notice I said helps. The archer IS the main factor in shooting but, there are certain aspects that can help out a shooter.



I personally don't think that’s a good comparison at all, for a couple of reasons. First guns and bows aren’t comparable accuracy wise or shooting wise. To be accurate enough to kill an animal with a gun you don’t have to have good form, all you have to be able to do is aim and squeeze a trigger that’s pretty simple. Second If you can’t hit a moose at a 100 yards with a gun you need to quit hunting period. Third are you saying the moon bow comes with shooting sticks? Cause for that price I think it should. But I’ll go with your comparison. What if I put a stabilizer on my cheap PSE and just make it a little heavier? That seems pretty easy and reasonable to me


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

bluenova said:


> I personally don't think that’s a good comparison at all, for a couple of reasons. First guns and bows aren’t comparable accuracy wise or shooting wise. To be accurate enough to kill an animal with a gun you don’t have to have good form, all you have to be able to do is aim and squeeze a trigger that’s pretty simple. Second If you can’t hit a moose at a 100 yards with a gun you need to quit hunting period. Third are you saying the moon bow comes with shooting sticks? Cause for that price I think it should. But I’ll go with your comparison. What if I put a stabilizer on my cheap PSE and just make it a little heavier? That seems pretty easy and reasonable to me


 If Jungle covers my hunt.... I will come up there and shoot the biggest Moose that walks out in front of me, with the PSE of your choice.   


Adam


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

Can you say Nova!! lol, and no, I'm not talking about a super nova .

Travis


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

"To be accurate enough to kill an animal with a gun you don’t have to have good form, all you have to be able to do is aim and squeeze a trigger that’s pretty simple."

Jungle, now I know when you can give up trying to explain a concept to someone.


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

Are you suggesting that i couldn't take Joe schmoe off the street and teach him to hit a moose @ 100 yards in less than an hour?

I am sorry that I am not being very benificial to this thread... I'm borderline [email protected]$$ at the moment...  However..

I understand what Jungle is pitching, and I would have to agree with Bluenova.... 

Anyone that is smart enough to learn how to shoot a bow well, is also smart enough to know that shooting a bow well takes a lot of time and effort, along with a solid mental approach.  

That being said... Anyone who fits the above desciption, is also aware that archery is 90% mental. Anyone that is using at least 10% of their brain, will realize that the folks Jungle is running into on these Moose hunts are missing because they are mentally unprepared, their equipment is obviously not setup well ( lack of knowledge), and gosh knows what else...  

That very same group of folks that are using at least 10% of their brain, are also aware that a new bow design is not going to resolve the above issues.  


Bottom line is... you put this bow into the hands of the SAME folks that are missing a Moose the size of a small import car, and they are not going to see $2,000 worth of value out of the new design...  

NOW that I have said all that.. keep in mind I am not nocking the concept, or the bow itself. Only the logic behind it. 


To clarify.. I have 2 brand new bows, that shoot 60X's all day long, and I spent less than half of what the Moon is retailing for..


Damn.. This almost looks like a OneBowTie posting!!!    

I'm outta here

Adam G


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

> Jungle, now I know when you can give up trying to explain a concept to someone.



I might be slow but don't give up on me yet  ... 

Like Adam said, I'm not trying to nock the design or technology of the bow, from what I'v red Jim knows what he's talking about. But in my opinion archery/bowhunting is about the shooter/hunter its not about the bow. Answer me this questions if I can buy a bow for $350 and kill an elk, moose, or whatever animal my heart desires why would I spend $2000 on a bow? 


P.S. well said Adam


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

> Bottom line is... you put this bow into the hands of the SAME folks that are missing a Moose the size of a small import car, and they are not going to see $2,000 worth of value out of the new design...


Thats not what this bow is about.

For instance - I have a $300 remington 870 12 gauge that I can small game hunt. It points relatively well, patterns decently, and functions flawlessly. Probalby the only gun I'd ever need right?

So, why then, did I buy a Beretta Silver Pigeon Sporting O/U? Can I hit more game with it? Ehhhh, not really. I might see a 1 or 2 bird difference at the skeet field. But, I didn't buy it to hit more. I bought it to own. For the quality, craftsmanship, balance and pointability. Its a beautiful gun - a work of art. You can get up to a $40k or even $100k Perazzi....

Same goes for "Moon" bow. Joe Schmoe hacker bow hunter that shoots a $200 PSE isn't going to see this bow for what it is. Just like they don't think there is any difference between their PSE and a $700 Mathews or Bowtech. Just like they see my silver pigeon as no more than a waste of money. I spent $1700 more than I needed to for a "gun that does the same thing".

Some people just don't understand. They don't understand manufacturing costs. Details of design and art that goes into a bow like this. It can't be explained with any justifiable reason, just like my O/U purchase. Its something to have...

Is screwing a stabilizer onto a $200 PSE to make it way 6# the same as this bow? Ummmmm no. Nice try..... Will this $2000 bow make you a better shot? Probably not either! But how does it feel? How does it make you feel when you shoot it? Its about the finer things in life, that unfortunately, many don't take the time to experience, or appreciate....

Bo

PS - That being said, I probably won't be buying one....


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*Will you settle for less than the best ?*

Bo Hunter,

Great post and I agree with you totally.
When I shoot my $1,000.00 Bowman bows (have 3 of them) I know, I could probably get the job done about as well with my PSE Mach 8.
But the Mach 8 doesn't have the superb construction, components, or finish of the Bowman bows.
Same goes when I shoot my pretty Super Nova.
I have been told I am nuts on many occassions for paying what I did for my Bowman and Merlin bows.
Others always say the less expensive Mathews, Bowtech, PSE, Hoyt, and Martin etc are just as good or better.
If they feel that way, fine.
Glad they own what they feel is the best for them and more power to them !
No one will really know what it's like to own a Merlin, Bowman, Barnsdale, or new Moon bow until they buy one for themselves and can see the quality and experience it firsthand.
If anyone says they cannot see a difference in quality between the big 3 bows of Bowman, Barnsdale, and Merlin from most major manufacturers bows with Gordon limbs, then all I can say is...
There are none so blind as those who will not see.  
I would like to own a Moon bow too but can't say if I will or not.
One way I look at buying a Moon bow is.. 
You're only going thru this life once.
If you want one of the finest hunting bows made and can afford it, or save up for it, get it.
It won't help you to have your coffin lined with money when you're gone from this world.  
Your benefactors may well lift a glass of champagne to toast your demise and their good fortune though. LOL
Another way I look at buying an expensive bow is...
I might not be able to afford a $500,000 sports cars like Bill Gates, but I can afford to own a $2,000 Moon bow if I want to.  


Sag.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

Sagittarius said:


> Bo Hunter,
> 
> Great post and I agree with you totally.
> When I shoot my $1,000.00 Bowman bows (have 3 of them) I know, I could probably get the job done about as well with my PSE Mach 8.
> ...



Well Sag I guess your going to have to call me blind then. I'v owned a merlin super nova before. For a year actually. The bow was a good shooting bow as good as the hoyt protech I'm shooting right now. But as far as quality it wasn't that great. Like I said I owned the bow for 1 year and had 2 sets of limbs crack on me 2 two riser that the anodizing faded. I paid just under 1k for that bow if I remember right. So I know what its like to spend a lot on a bow and believe me it wasn’t worth it. Now I’m not trying to bash merlin they did take care of me. But I will probably never shoot one of their bows again. I guess I said all of that because sometimes you don’t get what you pay for.

It seems to me, from yours, and bo hunters post. what it really comes down to is how much money you have. But not really whether the bow is actually worth the cost. 

P.S I do hope the bow is worth the 2,000 right now I just don't see the benifits..


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Adam & Blue,

It’s quite obvious to me you guys are conversing on a different level from where most are that input on this thread, catch up w/ me in a few years, after a few miles, and a few more hunts, then we’ll talk.

Bald,

The equipment always performs the same, my point is the archer doesn’t, planning for this FACT and using equipment that isn’t as touchy is IMO, outcome oriented planning. I don’t know ONE SINGLE GOOD hunter that shoots a high ratio bow, and contrary to Adam’s comments, I’ve been lucky enough to have shared campfires with some of the best competitive archers and bowhunters to hit the scene in the last 30 years.

In actual fact, many of the budget set-ups make better hunting bows than the premier models with high ratios.



Jungle.



Page 2,

My vehicle is worth $800, and gets 45 miles / gallon, and I live in a house about the size of a two car garage w/ my wife and 3 children, BUT, my bow is the best money can buy, we travel lots, and I’ve been luck enough to have hunted many places around the world…live like you wanna live, you may never be back this way again.

Jim.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

> It’s quite obvious to me you guys are conversing on a different level from where most are that input on this thread, catch up w/ me in a few years, after a few miles, and a few more hunts, then we’ll talk.


Wow thats a bit of an insult. I'm kind of hurt .... I guess since I brought up logical questions or ideas about the hunter being the problem not the bow. that makes me years behind you guys? I'm a little confused here.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Fellow archers,

I’m gone for now, I’ll post again when I get the web site up and running, or I get another combo ready to go.

To be quite honest, I take a lot of this stuff personally…the irony of what I’m trying to do versus what some think I’m trying to do blows me away.

I’ll leave you with this food for thought. My intent isn’t to be Mr. Big bow business man, in fact, any proper business man would cringe if they looked over the numbers associated with this bow, it doesn’t make good business sense, only good hunting sense, and I’m a rabid hunter first and foremost. When I decided to make a bow, I couldn’t bring myself to cut any corners – and that costs money.

I sincerely hope it finds a home here and there in like minded hunters or target archers hands, and I TRULY believe it’ll help anyone out when the going gets tough, as it all to often does when hunting, and I can only imagine also during the heat of a tournament. That’s what it was designed for – plain & simple, not to outclass anyone else’s bow, or as some status symbol, and I certainly didn’t want the distinction of “the most expensive bow”, that’s just how it worked out.

I did my thing in trying to explain it – even to those who don’t understand, and, as promised, you saw it here first. So, I’ll leave it to you guys to hash out, any serious inquiries can reach me for the time being by e-mail at [email protected] If you take the time, so will I, but, not here, not anymore. 

Good shooting,

Jim Rodtka
Owner – Moon Archery


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

> It seems to me, from yours, and bo hunters post. what it really comes down to is how much money you have.


Close, but not quite. What it all comes down to is what you decide to spend what money you have.....on.

I hear this all the time from people I hunt with. Its about priorities. A lot of people I know that hunt, complain because they don't have land. To them, I always respond the same "Buy some then!". THey look at me puzzled and angered, "Yeah, thats easy for you to say - I don't have the money you've got" (By the way, I'm just a regular guy with a regular job). My response to them, "I drive a $15,000 Toyota Corolla. I pay $22 max at the pump to fill it and thats if its bone dry, and she'll run me for a week at least. YOU, on the otherhand, Mr. Poor-Folk drive a $40,000 3/4 ton pickup truck that costs you $50 to fill up at least twice a week. If thats not a land payment, I don't know what is. You head to the gas station, I'll head to my cabin....

I wanted a beautiful shotgun. Something I could pass on to kids and grand kids. An 870 is something you throw in the garbage when you are done with it. A Beretta Silver Pigeon is something that gets oiled and polished regularly, and stowed away in a safe. Pulled out and shot only on special occasions, Grand-pappy's birthday perhaps for a quick round of skeet with something he left behind.

If you don't want a Moon, don't buy one. Its no big deal. If someone wants to buy one, let them, and don't call the spoiled, rich, or the like. Almost everyone has something they admire for precision and quality. To me, its my Beretta. To someone else, it might be a Ferrari or old Rolls Royce, to someone else it might be an Ed Brown Custom 1911, or someone else an old Lionel steam engine. Everyone has their own interests.

If you can't at least appreciate the quality, thought, and design that goes into this bow, you will never get why ANYONE would buy it. But, thats okay. Enjoy your PSE, your ford tempo, and your Mossberg 500....   

Bo


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*To all you naysayer's and various knuckleheads.....*

Well, now you've done it!  

I just read Jim's (Jungle's) final post on this thread, where he says he is done posting his bow-development updates on this forum!

Thanks to a few knuckleheads who don't appreciate it when a man is trying to make a significant contribution to a sport he loves, he no longer feels that he wants to participate on this forum.....

I have tried to ignore posts on other archery forums on the Web who slam AT for having an over-abundance of *******s.....

My reason for ignoring such comments is because there are some OUTSTANDING, knowledgable and friendly folks here. Alot of good information is exchanged and shared.....

Unfortunately, it is somewhat inevitable that a site with thousands of hits daily is going to pull-in a few "Wal-Mart"-types that believe any "blue-light" special bow is plenty good enough.....

Now, before somebody jumps in here about me sounding "elitist" or a "snobby rich *******", this has nothing to do with how much money I or anyone else does or doesn't have! 

It has to do with having enough common sense to recognize when an individual has put his heart and soul into an archery project and made a contribution (even if his buyer-market is only a tiny fraction of the total market-share), and having the common human decency not to slam his creation WHEN YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HANDLED THE BOW, MUCH LESS SHOT IT!  

Jim doesn't strike me as a thin-skinned guy who can't handle constructive critique (I stress the word CONSTRUCTIVE)....but some of the clowns on this thread appear to be just trying to get under his skin....

Hopefully, Jim will reconsider his departure from this forum. But if he doesn't, I sure as hell don't blame him.....

Richard


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

bluenova,

I wasn't saying that you are blind in particular and should not have even made that statement on hindsight.  
Don't blame you for being pissed about your Super Nova's finish problems.
My Merlin bows have been great but a few don't make the grade like other brands.
I do feel, lots of guys buy into the hype of some of the manufacturers ads and believe them to be the gospel true.
Mathews is the main one and they do make a good bow.
But,jmo, they're no Bowman, Barnsdale, Merlin or this new Moon bow when it comes down to overall craftsmanship.
I do believe the Moon bow will never have a finish problem because it's a type 3 anodize which is 90 on the Rockwell scale !
It cannot and will never wear off !
Unless, you took a grinding wheel to your bow.  
Barnsdale limbs have a great reputation for few failures but they are not immune.
Still as always, 90% of all limb failures can be traced to shooting too light an arrow weight.
Not saying your Merlin failed because of this but I have known lots of archers over the years who have lied like a dog about shooting too light of an arrow to get abused limbs replaced under warranty.
For those who aren't interested in a Moon bow, why come on here and complain about the price if you think it's too high ?
Just keep shooting your $300.00 Walmart special and be happy.  



Sag.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

TexasGuy said:


> Thanks to a few knuckleheads who don't appreciate it when a man is trying to make a significant contribution to a sport he loves, he no longer feels that he wants to participate on this forum.....


This is also the reason most pros won't post here any more either.


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Sag, I agree totally....*

We must have been typing our last post at the same time.....my last post is right before your last post......

Looks like we see this situation exactly the same! 

Tex


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

*Panties too tight.*

Texasguy... Dont get yer panties in a WAD...  

I havn't said anything on here that was anything other than questions to challenge the logic that was being layed out in regards to this bow. Not a word of it is meant to be personal or anything along those lines.

Maybe a little [email protected]$$ thrown in here and there, but thats how I am...  

Jungle,
I congratulate you on your creation!! I honestly am very appreciative of your new design, and I would never intend to curb your desire to create a master piece...... I think its awesome that you have taken the time and effort to create what you envisioned !!  

My intention is good discussion, a different view, and My desire to understand just what the value of this bow might be...


I'll tell you what I see the value in this bow as being..

AN AWESOME INDOOR SPOT BOW.  


I guarentee that If we were all sitting in a room together having this discussion, nobody would be offended. It would just be a good ole conversation.

Ya'll need to chill.. I understand that you really believe in the design of this bow. I am "trying to understand". 

P.S. I am a PRO, I have been shooting for 24+ years, target, hunting Etc, US Archery team... Blah blah blah. 
Bluenova is a very experienced archer himself, with loads of talent.

P.S.S We dont shoot PSE Nova's !!!!!   


Adam


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

*Wow*

First let me say I wasn't trying to bash anybody or anything so I apologize if you took it that way. I'm just questioning the logic behind the bow. I’ve followed the moon thread quite a bit from the very beginning because I was interested in what the bow would turn out to be. I must say I was a little disappointed. If I’m going to spend $2000 on a bow I would like to be able to take it hunting for anything. Well in my opinion you can’t do that with the moon bow (I.E. going over to Africa and hunting I would never take a bow that slow because the KE just wouldn’t be high enough.) 

Another thing, I have been shooting a bow for 7 years. Most of you probably don’t think that’s a very long time, but time is relative. I’m only 17 years old so that’s a long time to be shooting a bow for someone my age. I’v probably spent more money on archery than most of the people on this thread if you count, tournaments, hunting, and equipment. So I do know what its like to spend money on something you really enjoy and I don’t have a problem doing it(just so you know my parents pay for everything they have helped, but I’v worked hard for most everything I’v got) No I won’t pretend I know everything cause I don’t. But there are a few things I’v learned over the years. The bow doesn’t make the hunter the hunter makes the bow. And from the very beginning of the moon thread it sounded like Jim(jungle) was trying to say that the bow will help you kill more animals. Guess what that’s exactly how all the other companies try to market their bows. So how is he any different then the big companies. Well I guess he is a little different. He’s the exact opposite he’s saying a slower, heavier, and a longer bow is going to be better. Well I just don’t agree. I know speed isn’t everything but if you want to have high KE, then you need a bow that is capable of shooting an arrow at high speeds. The fact is if people wouldn’t wait tell 1 month before hunting season and pull out their bow to start practicing they wouldn’t be missing or wounding all the animals. 

Jim isn’t going to have any fewer people wound animals because of the new bow he’s building. It just doesn’t work that way. Good hunters are just that THEIR GOOD, not because of the bow but because of the time they’ve spent behind the bow and in the woods.

Just so you know TexasGuy. I hunt with a mathews and shoot target archery with a hoyt. I hunt with the mathews because it used to be my target bow and I just turned it into a hunting bow, I don’t hunt with it because I think it’s the best bow in the world. I couldn’t care less what I’m hunting with. I know if I make the shot its gonna kill the animal, Its not up to the bow where the arrow goes its up to me.. I’v never bought a bow from Wal-Mart and never will. Don’t blame me or anybody else on this thread for Jim leaving. That was his choice he’s a grown man. BTW I do have common sense that’s exactly why I question the bow. I already said in another post I think Jim is a very smart man. But I don’t agree with the logic behind the bow.

Some keep trying to compare Guns to bows. Sorry but it just doesn't work. Guns hold their value. In 20 years a really nice gun will still be really nice, if taken care of. But in 20 years a really nice bow won't be a really nice bow, it will be out dated and time to throw away. Same with cars. they get more expensive as time goes on. That comparison just doesn't work. 


Travis


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

Sagittarius said:


> bluenova,
> 
> I wasn't saying that you are blind in particular and should not have even made that statement on hindsight.
> Don't blame you for being pissed about your Super Nova's finish problems.
> ...



Sag I wasn't trying to bash Merlin, and I wasn't pissed at them, they treated me right through all the problems and I can't ask for any more then that. their craftsmanship is nice and their bow is beautiful, but it still didn't get the job done when it came down to it.I was shooting navigator 480's with 100 grain points. Just in case you don't know they weigh somewhere between 340-360 grains. I was only pulling #58 pounds at a 28 and half inch draw. so that being said it wasn't the weight of the arrows it was faulty limbs, 2 sets at that. I said in the post before this I'v never bought a wal-mart bow and never will. I hope you enjoy your $2000 dollor moon bow. You know if I had the money to spend I would buy one just to see what all the hype was about ..

I'm not really complaining about the price. I'm questions what you get for the price


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

that is one cool looking bow and good luck with it....

6lbs...wow....with my shoulders I would have to shoot it barebow no stab or anything....I am trying to get target bows at no more than 6lbs....kinda hard starting out with 4lbs 10 ounces...I just ditched the bigger limbs on a hunting bow cause it weighed just over 7lbs   that would be about 8-9lbs with that bow...good by shoulder...  

nothing but forgiving dimensions....


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

I have a few friends that just came back from an Elk Hunt in Colorado. They took their normal Texas deer hunting bows setup for shooting deer here in South West Texas..

The main thing that I heard upon their return from the trip was...

" Holy cow, next time I go Elk hunting, I am taking a lighter bow!!!"

Maybe that is part of what I dont understand. 6 lbs, with nuthin on the bow is darn heavy to be lugging around for a week of chasing Elk, Moose, or whatever the case may be..

Thoughts?

Adam


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

bluenova,
Good points, and well put. I understand what you mean now...

Just curious, but has anyone weighed their bow with all the accessories? I'm guessing mine is creeping past 6#....


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

Bo Hunter said:


> bluenova,
> Good points, and well put. I understand what you mean now...
> 
> Just curious, but has anyone weighed their bow with all the accessories? I'm guessing mine is creeping past 6#....


Bo, 

my 05 Protec with XT3000 and spirals, no-peep, spot-hogg Right on, whisker biscuit, shrewd disconnect and over 7 ounce stabilizer is just a tad over 6lbs

I should drop about a quarter pound when I go to the XT2000 limbs

I don't see the moon as a problem for the average guy in a treestand. Skinny freak like me it would be a problem.

But an 8-9lb bow walking around all day hunting would get heavy.

I am going back to the XT2000 limbs cause with the longer ata and brace height on this protec it takes a 30" stab to balance with just 7 ounces of stab weight, at 15", it takes just over 16 ounces of weight to balance good....it was going over 7lbs and just too heavy...for me that is....

George Dixons Apex is at 8.5lbs for 3D....


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*OK, I've calmed down now.....*

Adam,

Your point about bow mass-weight for extended hiking on moose or elk hunts is well-taken....no argument there....

Clearly, the Moon bow (or ANY bow, for that matter) may not be the most appropriate bow for EVERY hunting application......

However, over 95% of bowhunters in America hunt whitetail deer from treestands. We walk-in a couple hundred yards (more if you like to get a little more remote, like I do) and sit patiently for 3-4 hours at a stretch.....

Mass-weight is clearly a non-issue in this case.....

The mass weight of my hunting bow (with sight and stabilizer) is just over 7 pounds. The Moon bow, due to it's inherent riser mass-weight, eliminates the need for a stabilzer, and works-out to be real close to my tricked-out hunting bow weight. I would STILL probably add a 10 oz. Stealth stabilizer to the Moon....I'm 6' feet, 220 lbs. and shot an 82 lb. Shafer Silvertip recurve for years.....killed several P&Y deer and a black bear with it.....weight (either draw-weight or mass-weight) is not an issue for me......the heavier it is, the more stable and accurate it has the potential to be.....


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

TexasGuy
OKay.. 82 lb recurve.. That's stout!!!


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*Bluenova, a little education for you.....*

Bluenova,

I'm glad you indicated your just 17 years old.....you seem like a bright young man and you are apparently dedicated to learning and growing in the sport...

A bit of info for you on required kinetic energy for complete penetration on North American big game, particularly whitetail deer....

I'm 45 years old and have bowhunted for 28 years. I killed my first deer (a 100 lb. doe) when I was your age; a 17 year-old junior in high school. I was using a 45 lb. Bear Kodiak recurve with hollow, fiberglass arrows and a Bear Razorhead broadhead which my dad showed me how to strop to razor-sharpness.....probably only 38-42 ft. lbs. of KE....I achieved a pass-thru on that doe from 18 yards.....

I have killed 6 deer (3 doe's/3 bucks, one of the bucks a 147" 11-point) with a 49 lb. Shafer Silvertip recurve bow shooting 3/39 ACC's with a 125 gr. 4-blade Phantom broadhead (total arrow weight 410 grs.). The arrow velocity (though an Ohler chronograph) of this set-up was only 202 fps, generating only 37 ft. lbs. of KE......I had complete heart/lung pass-thru's on 5 out of 6 of these deer, including the 147" 11-point). The one that didn't pass-thru was a direct spine-shot). All deer were recovered within 100 yards.....

Just because most modern compounds will generate 60-65 fpe, don't believe you NEED that to achieve full penetration.....99% of how well an arrow penetrates is based on 3 things:

1) Broadhead design (cut-on-contact, punch-point or mechanical/expanding)
2) Perfectly clean arrow flight / well-tuned set-up......
3) Kinetic Energy delivered at the target....

You've probably watched many of the bowhunting video's on the market today....I watched one that made me sick....a well-known "bowhunter" was shooting a well-known, 72 lb. compound bow, carbon arrows and an expandable broadhead. I watched in disbelief/horror as this guy had to put not one, not two but THREE arrows into a 6x6 bull elk. ALL of these shots impacted behind the last rib (liver area) and NONE of them had more than 1/2 the shaft in the bull!  The shooter and his camera-man had to follow this bull as it slowly walked for almost 2 miles before it finally fell over....the fact that they were in plain sight of the bull the whole time makes me suspicious it may have been a semi-tame "National Park" elk.....

If this clown had be using a "cut-to-point" broadhead (Magnus, Zwickey, Phantom, etc.), even a 50 lb. recurve would have buried the shaft to the fletching!

But these super high-speed bows are hard to tune for many novices with anything but a field point on the end of their arrow.....so they HAVE to shoot expandables to get decent groups, which forces the NEED for super-high KE just to get the job done!


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

My theory for Target, and hunting.....

I like to shoot the heaviest arrow I can, at the highest reasonable speed.


I am setting up My FITA bow now. 58 lbs, 360 grain X-10, 29.5" draw.. Tested @ 275 FPS 2 days ago... I like to be around 280.. no need for much more.

I have some tweaking to go...

That setup is with a Razor X Mag.

Adam G


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

TexasGuy said:


> Bluenova,
> 
> I'm glad you indicated your just 17 years old.....you seem like a bright young man and you are apparently dedicated to learning and growing in the sport...
> 
> ...





I understand everything your saying and I do agree with most of it. If I remember correctly studies have shown you only need 25 pounds of KE to pass through a whitetail with a well placed shot, and 45 pounds of KE to pass through most northern America big game animals. So I do understand what you’re saying. But as far as going to Africa that’s a little different ball game and that’s what I was referring to when I was talking about KE. More important than KE is shot placement, and that’s when it comes down to the shooter. If you shoot an animal right in the shoulder blade no matter how much KE you have your not going to get good penetration. I agree broadheads have a huge affect on KE also. I’ve never liked open on impact for quite a few reasons, but mainly because it takes away from the KE. 


Bo Hunter.. my hunting bow without the quiver weighs just under 6 pounds with the quiver just over. when I'm hunting in a blind, which is what I do most of my hunting in, I take the quiver off.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

TexasGuy,

A Schafer Silvertip ?
You're an even cooler guy than I thought.  
I just ordered my 3rd Trails End from Dale Dye last week.
It's going to have a Snakewood riser, hand checkering, and matching limbs.
But it's only going to be a 70lb draw not 82lb like yours.   
I do like the Silvertip very much also and plan to own one someday.

Bluenova,

Would have never guessed you're only 17. 
You are a pretty smart guy.
Almost said kid but didn't want to insult you.  
Heck, wish I was just a kid again and a whole lot smarter than I am now.  
Sometimes, I look back at some of my replies and wonder what moron posted them.   


Sag.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*Weight of my bows*

My Super Nova weighs 8 1/2lbs set up while my Accu-Riser II goes 8lbs and my heavy version goes 10lbs.
My old Accu-Riser I goes 9lbs.
My PSE Mach 8 hunting bow goes 7 1/2lbs.
Stewart Bowman's personal bow goes something like 13lbs, if I remember correctly.  
All my compounds have a 70lb draw weight and 31" draw length.
Since I'm virtually a 100% tree stand hunter and walk a maximum distance of 500 yds to my stand, the weight of the Moon bow would be no problem for me.
Not a problem for 3-D either.  


Sag.


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## charles (Dec 23, 2003)

*Well ???*

I'm not a machinest, not even an ingenere but i am a computer science specialist and therefore  not stupid Ha Ha Ha ...

Ok i dont know why people would say some of the stu o read in this tread from what i can imagine, no one complaning has shot the bow ... Am i right???

The look of it is great no nick nacks... good desighn(most big company have a shape like it) cam system is Great if you can recognise the desighn...(for those that fallow the archery trend) a recuve limbs on a parallele desighn Hum interesting Most be realy smooooooooth.

all i see is a SUPER BOW .


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Bo Hunter said:


> bluenova,
> Good points, and well put. I understand what you mean now...
> 
> Just curious, but has anyone weighed their bow with all the accessories? I'm guessing mine is creeping past 6#....


My Olympic recurve is most definitely lighter then any compound I've owned. Maybe around the same weight with an entire stabilizer and target sight set up.

My Quest 35 weighs in at 4#'s bare. With a doinker shorty stabilizer, Copper John Dead nuts, Whisker Bisquit. I doubt it even reaches 6#'s. It's still a lunk to carry around all day in the woods. Unless of course you treestand hunt, which I haven't in ages. 

Dylan


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## Ont. BowTech (Dec 27, 2004)

sorry but I think it looks alot like an AR with out the holes just a longer AtoA.

Grant


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## psychobowz (Feb 25, 2004)

The overall design of the bow is fantastic, I hope it does well for you Jungle. I'll let you know when I am ready to order mine.


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

Very nice Jungle, I will be ordering mine soon. 

www.moonarchery.com


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*This one ended on Feb., 11th. 05'*

Bummer!!!
At first glance, I thought this was a new thread on the Moon bow but saw the replies and views and knew it could not be so. 
I wish old threads more than a month old could not be brought back up again.
Viewed, for sure, but not brought back up.
Nothing personal, motega.  
Maybe, we should start a new thread. :lightbulb 


Sag.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

motega said:


> I can't understand how you compound shooters could drop $2000 on a bow...


I can't understand why people spend a $100K on a car, a million on a house or $45 on an ounce of chocolate, but people do it all the time. It all depends on whether you want to drive a Ford or a Ferrari, live in Bel Air or the boonies, or eat Godiva or Hershy's. You have to decide if the item is worth the price and buy or not buy.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

I sure is expensive...but I bet this bow could turn into one of them bows you can hand down from generation to generation. That's no lie. I just wish all companies would put out a camo anodized riser like this.


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## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

Design, fit and finish gets an A++, truly stunning.

Cost gets a big LOL!


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## NCA (Feb 26, 2003)

*should be a shooter*

Have not read all post, so from first look!!!

Bowman style riser( with out foward swivel) strongest no flex riser out there..
Looks like barnsdale limbs(( enough said on that ok awesome limbs)
Darton cps cam style( forgiving and probably the easiest to tune on the market)

All in All great looking bow..
With all the top goodies(form and funtional)
Price..Ouch..But in a couple of years that will be the standard..lol
Nice bow.. good looks and great desighn..

good luck, and wish u well on ur new line of bows..


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Well, maybe I was wrong about bringing the thread back since the last few posts have been positive. 
It is indeed a unique bow with nothing else quite like it.
Anyone out there that owns a Moon bow who could post a few pics ?
Would like to see one set up with accessories. 


Sag.


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

I never saw this thread! Great to see the moon bow has been made. I remeber when it was just a dream. I hope it goes good!


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Well, I sat and read the almost the whole thread before realizing that it was old. Sounds like I just admitted to being senile.

Has he sold any of these bows? I have not heard anything on here for a long time. Actually cannot remember when, until today.

Is he really trying to sell these for $2000 USD?

I recall from the thread that he claims that the bow is manufactured from the best of everything, with the highest degree of care in assembly, and that the design will help prevent the hunter from making mistakes in the field when conditions are not equal to practice.

That is all well and good but really believable and not worth $2000. It does not even have the good limb pockets that Sag is always teasing me about.

One of the reasons for the selling price is his low volume as a result of the price. It is an endless upward spiral, especially when the expected profit is $1000 or more. Do the math. We all know what Barnsdale limbs cost and about what Darton cams should cost including royalties. WC strings and cables are a known cost. All these would enjoy some volume manufacturers deal.

All that is left is the handle but even that is not but so much.

Anyone that thinks a Moon bow or any other bow will not depreciate is seriously twisted.

But the world is full of misguided souls who think that something is better just because it costs a lot and the maker says so.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

FS560 said:


> All that is left is the handle but even that is not but so much.


Try making one. You'd be surprised at how expensive it is to make a riser. Especially a CNC machined riser.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Mr. FS560,

What exactly is it that upsets you so w/ the price of my bows? Is it that you can’t personally afford one…or…that it’s worth 2 or 3 times as much as your bow?

Is it your contention that practice alone makes an effective shot on game? Perhaps you are an armchair expert at more than just the manufacturing of bows…maybe also…dare I say…bowhunting?

With your firsthand knowledge of shooting game, sourcing materials, manufacturing, marketing, and MATH…you should be the one building bows…

Sounds to me like you’ve got it all figured out…

:teeth:


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

baldmountain said:


> Try making one. You'd be surprised at how expensive it is to make a riser. Especially a CNC machined riser.


Geoff, I do know what is involved in making a bow handle by any of the following processes:

sand casting
die casting
impact extruding (forging)
extruding/machining
full machining from a billet

The Hoyt tech handles are probably the most expensive to machine in terms of machine time and metal scrap.

I realize that low volume will cause the handle cost from machine shops to increase, but that in itself does not make any bow better or worth more on the market.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Well, my dear Mr. Jungle,

Sounds like I have hit a nerve and you have picked up the shoe, found that it fits, and kicked yourself in the butt.

Your continued attempt to denigrate those offering criticism of your product by implying and stating in an arrogant manner that they probably cannot afford your product simply shows your probable failed attempt at snob appeal marketing of your bow.

The issue is not how many of your bows I can afford to buy, my dear Mr. Jungle, because I can probably afford to buy as many as you can afford to build. I just would never do so because no bow, yours or any other available, is worth your price.

I have quite a bit of experience with compound bows and shooting, and I can tell you, sir, that there is nothing special about the design or manufacture of your bow that will prove your claim that it will help hunters make less mistakes in the field, or whatever it was that you said.

Only a fool would fall for your marketing claims, but then maybe that is what you are counting on, that there enough archery groupie fools here in the US.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

I feel like adding that the CPS cams system is the best cams system made to date. I have had nothing but great results with CPS since 1999. It looks to be a very enjoyable bow to shoot. If I ever see a shooter with one I would ask to shoot a couple arrows from it. Any Michigan dealers? I do like the way they look.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

FS560 said:


> Well, my dear Mr. Jungle,
> 
> Sounds like I have hit a nerve and you have picked up the shoe, found that it fits, and kicked yourself in the butt.
> 
> ...


FS560, Jim,
sorry but that post I find to be arrogant.

It's rigth, a Porsche will not bring me to my work any better than an average car and I probably don't need a Moon bow to hit the mark I'm aiming for but there's still something special in those "low-volume-high-price area" and I'm sure that Jim Rodtka's (Jungle) last intention bringing that bow to the market is to get rich at our cost.

If the the Moon bow is not worth its price in your opinion, just don't buy it.
But please stop to heckle the manufacturer. I know that he has spent more than enough blood into that project.

Probably I could never afford such a car or such a bow but I won't ever complain about their price (although I know it's a special car....and a special bow).
Call me one of the fools or the groupies but I will buy the things I like and/or I can afford.
The decision to purchase an item is very seldom determined by pure reason or rationality (term?). Nonetheless I think the Moon bows ARE something special and I would buy one in rush if only the money would be at hand.

Please pay attention to fairplay. No one is forcing you to buy that bow.

Good hunting to all
Markus

_


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

When you post to an open web forum you are opening yourself to discussion. Just like any of the other manufacturers.

Jim is not the only one that finds the price strange. In fact, I could go right to Dave Barnsdale and have one of his own creations for under a grand and there is no denying it's a work of art too. 

The Porsche will do the same job as other cars, but you get a pile of technological advances over the average joe car. You don't get that with a Moon over any other bow...mass produced or custom.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

> It's rigth, a Porsche will not bring me to my work any better than an average car and I probably don't need a Moon bow to hit the mark I'm aiming for but there's still something special in those "low-volume-high-price area" and I'm sure that Jim Rodtka's (Jungle) last intention bringing that bow to the market is to get rich at our cost.



LOL... That has to be the most ignorant anology I've seen in a long time. You missed the point of FS560's post. He said the design of jungles bow did not offer any advantages over other bow manufactures, or atleast not enough of an advantage for the price. On the other hand, Porsh offers a huge advantage in design and performance over a honda civic. So, if you are going to make a comparison, make the correct one please. 

FS:thumbs_up


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

bluenova said:


> He said the design of jungles bow did not offer any advantages over other bow manufactures, or atleast not enough of an advantage for the price. On the other hand, Porsh offers a huge advantage in design and performance over a honda civic. So, if you are going to make a comparison, make the correct one please.


Hmmm... You need to go back and re-read some of Jim's posts. Jim is a guide. He has watched too many people choke in that time where they need to make a good shot to make a clean harvest. Instead they either don't make the shot, or make a bad shot and fatally wound an animal that will never be found no matter how much time you spend searching for the wounded animal. This loss sickens Jim and in response he designed a hunting bow. One designed to help people make the shot that counts. The one to make a clean harvest. The one that does NOT loose a fatally wounded animal.

I'm not a hunter. I'm a target shooter. But I heartily applaud Jim's effort to make sure people make that shot for a clean harvest. You have at least one fan. Way to go Jim!

I sincerly hope Jim succeeds. We need more people focused on bows that help hunter's make a clean harvest rather than speed or 3D or target.

I honestly wish I had the financial resources to buy on of Jim's bows because I 100% support what he is trying to acheive.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

baldmountain said:


> Hmmm... You need to go back and re-read some of Jim's posts. Jim is a guide. He has watched too many people choke in that time where they need to make a good shot to make a clean harvest. Instead they either don't make the shot, or make a bad shot and fatally wound an animal that will never be found no matter how much time you spend searching for the wounded animal. This loss sickens Jim and in response he designed a hunting bow. One designed to help people make the shot that counts. The one to make a clean harvest. The one that does NOT loose a fatally wounded animal.
> 
> I'm not a hunter. I'm a target shooter. But I heartily applaud Jim's effort to make sure people make that shot for a clean harvest. You have at least one fan. Way to go Jim!
> 
> ...



Well maybe you should read back, cause if you did, you would have seen that I've been following this thread since the beginning:thumbs_up 

Since you are a target archer and not a hunter, you should understand better then most that being a good shooter has more to do with having good form and practicing then it does having a really expensive bow. My guess is that most of the people that have fatally wounded or made bad shots on animals is because THEY made a bad shot (not the bow) or the animal moved on the instant of the show (that does have something to do with the bow, but all bows make noise and I'm sure Jim's is no exeption). 

I'm not going to argue with anybody that for Jim to make any money he has to sell the bow for $2000, or however much it is, but besides the bow materials costing that much, I want to know what really makes the bow worth buying. The bow is slower then most hunting bows, it is heavier then most hunting bows, and it has a longer ATA then most hunting bows, so if I'm buying a hunting bow, tell me the advantages of his bow? Do you really believe people will make less mistakes and kill more animals using Jim's bow over other manufacturers, and if so, why do you beleive that?


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

bluenova said:


> Do you really believe people will make less mistakes and kill more animals using Jim's bow over other manufacturers, and if so, why do you beleive that?


Yes, because it is slower, heavier and has a longer ATA than most. To get the short, light fast bows that are the fad now a days you have to sacrafice something else. That something else is forgiveness. Most people buy bows today are buying a bow that isn't particularly forgiving. Let's face it, most hunters need a more forgiving bow rather than a faster, lighter, shorter ATA bow...


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

baldmountain said:


> Yes, because it is slower, heavier and has a longer ATA than most. To get the short, light fast bows that are the fad now a days you have to sacrafice something else. That something else is forgiveness. Most people buy bows today are buying a bow that isn't particularly forgiving. Let's face it, most hunters need a more forgiving bow rather than a faster, lighter, shorter ATA bow...


Well if your theory is true, then why do you think Chris White has been able to shoot so good with all of the short ATA bows? He wouldn't be shooting them if he didn't think they were just as forgiving, or thought they didn't shoot as good as the longer ATA and slower bows. The other reason I don't think your theory is right, is because I've worked in an archery shop for a while, and I can't tell you how many guys have come in to the shop with older slower, longer ATA, and heavier bows(much like Jim's), buy a new shorter, faster, and lighter bow, and they instantly started shooting better.  Since you don't hunt, I was just curious if you have actually shot (more then just 5 arrows actually set one up and tried to score with it) a high end, short, fast, and light bow?


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

baldmountain said:


> Yes, because it is slower, heavier and has a longer ATA than most. To get the short, light fast bows that are the fad now a days you have to sacrafice something else. That something else is forgiveness. Most people buy bows today are buying a bow that isn't particularly forgiving. Let's face it, most hunters need a more forgiving bow rather than a faster, lighter, shorter ATA bow...



Exactly, however, there is absolutely nothing about the Moon bow that makes it superior to other top line bows of similar performance characteristics at one fourth to one third the price.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

FS560,

It’s not that your criticisms are close to the mark, on the contrary, you have ignored information that I have posted previously on the manufacturing technique, dollar mark-up, and physics behind the design, in addition to a ton of information on the art of shooting game well w/ a bow.

Please take the time to read so that we may discuss valid criticisms.

Jungle.

Bluenova…you are making a big assumption that everyone else has the correct recipe for a “hunting” bow.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*Check out the cost of the DAS Kinetic !*

For those of you who think Jim's Moon bow is too expensive, check out this topic of the DAS Kinetic hunting recurve bow.
If nothing else, read page 8 (#74) of the thread to see what the cost was to make the first riser of the DAS Kinetic. 
http://www.tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483
Jim's Moon bow's cost doesn't seem out of line at all after reading the cost on the DAS Kinetic's riser.
Gives a good idea of the start up costs of building a one of a kind bow.
The DAS Kinetic is gaining popularity as a hunting recurve among traditional shooters.
Just as the DAS Kinetic has with Traditional shooters, I believe, Jim's bow will gain in popularity with Compound Bowhunters who want the ultimate hunting compound. :thumbs_up 



Sag.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

Jungle said:


> FS560,
> 
> It’s not that your criticisms are close to the mark, on the contrary, you have ignored information that I have posted previously on the manufacturing technique, dollar mark-up, and physics behind the design, in addition to a ton of information on the art of shooting game well w/ a bow.
> 
> ...



Jim please show me where I made that assumption?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Bluenova,

“The bow is slower then most hunting bows, it is heavier then most hunting bows, and it has a longer ATA then most hunting bows, so if I'm buying a hunting bow, tell me the advantages of his bow?"

What has become popular in a hunting bow (faster, lighter, shorter) is IMO – not the qualities that make a good hunting bow. Don’t forget that it is something altogether different to execute an accurate shot at the moment of truth in the field - bowhunting, than it is to do likewise in the backyard…or bow shop range.

It is not by accident that my bows are pretty much the exact opposite of what’s popular today, therein lies the basics of making a good hunting bow. 

If you’ve never screwed up a shot opportunity…big time…at 20 yards on an animal, that you could make over and over in the backyard, this may be a difficult concept to understand, and, my hat goes off to you, as you must be a hellofa cool, collected, gifted bowhunter.

Just because present day marketing say’s so…doesn’t make it so.

Jungle.


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## bluenova (Oct 15, 2002)

Jungle said:


> Bluenova,
> 
> “The bow is slower then most hunting bows, it is heavier then most hunting bows, and it has a longer ATA then most hunting bows, so if I'm buying a hunting bow, tell me the advantages of his bow?"
> 
> ...


I don't understand why you quoted that to me cause that is not an assumption, those are facts. You stated "IMO" well thats nice that your opinion cost $2000, but your opinion does not make your bow better. The simple fact is, if people would get out and practice before going on big hunts, and by practice I mean more then one month in advance, they would not wound near as many animals. Your bow is not going to solve that problem.


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