# How's my form, Lug Nut & the "Power Triangle"



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Very nice explanation and diagrams.


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

I've heard of the power triangle but didn't get the meaning until just now. Thanks Nuts and Bolts...Something I'll have to work on.

My only question would be with the foot placement. I was taught to have the big toes of both feet touching an imaginary line pointed at the target, but it seems to me that the feet ought to be in line with the upper torso. I'd think that the slight twist in the torso (if standing on my imaginary line) would cause instability and maybe offset the benefit of the power triangle??? 

Would love to hear/see your suggestion for foot placement when using the power triangle method.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Hello kcarcherguy...the answer depends*



kcarcherguy said:


> I've heard of the power triangle but didn't get the meaning until just now. Thanks Nuts and Bolts...Something I'll have to work on.
> 
> My only question would be with the foot placement. I was taught to have the big toes of both feet touching an imaginary line pointed at the target, but it seems to me that the feet ought to be in line with the upper torso. I'd think that the slight twist in the torso (if standing on my imaginary line) would cause instability and maybe offset the benefit of the power triangle???
> 
> Would love to hear/see your suggestion for foot placement when using the power triangle method.


Hello kcarcheryguy:

The answer depends....
(I can't tell you all my secrets, just yet.....)
(gotta leave some stuff for my book....hehehehe).

For now,
I will say,
position the feet in whatever way allows you to position
the shoulders in line with the bow arm,
like the stick picture on the left.


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

That could get ugly with my size 15's!


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

thanks for the pics.
Not sure how to get from point B to point A. My shoulders are in line with the arrow, release elbow is in line also but bow arm is not. 28 1/4" grip to stops. If I back against a wall, both shoulders and bow arm against the wall, my draw goes to 30 1/2". Seems a tad long.


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## Southern Hunter (Apr 18, 2005)

*Guess where*

Hey Lug Nut, guess where that just went or should I say in who's book that just went in?
Pat
Working on the D-loop will get back to you when I can. It's out to 1 1/4 inches tying to find that majic number.
Thanks for all you done so far,
Pat Patterson


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Hmmmmm.*



Bob_Looney said:


> thanks for the pics.
> Not sure how to get from point B to point A. My shoulders are in line with the arrow, release elbow is in line also but bow arm is not. 28 1/4" grip to stops. If I back against a wall, both shoulders and bow arm against the wall, my draw goes to 30 1/2". Seems a tad long.


Even if you have an extremely open stance,
I can't see you gaining nearly 2-inches by swinging your bow hand
to be inline with your two shoulders.

If you hold a ruler in your bow hand, sticking straight up,
and then stand with your back and bow arm against a wall,
have a friend measure from the corner of your mouth
to the ruler.










Now, add 1.75 inches to that measurement.

What number do you get now?


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## nub. (Mar 13, 2004)

> the shoulders in line with the bow arm,
> like the stick picture on the left.


Thats just flat out painful for me. Not too mention I'm at least a couple inches long. May not measure long to the corner of my mouth, but to get my elbow inline I'd need one hell of a D loop.


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## Dave Nowlin (May 21, 2003)

There is yet another way to shoot that also forms a triangle. There is a straight line from my bow hand to my left shoulder, There is a straight line from my left shoulder to my right elbow and there is a straight line from my elbow through the arrow. I shoot a Carter Two Shot release and anchor with the knuckle of my right index finger tucked into to the pocket formed behind my right ear lobe. Therefore there are three straight lines. My shoulders aren't parallel to the arrow. The difference here is whether you want to form an angle at your front shoulder or at your rear shoulder. For me my way is more comfortable. I don't like turning my head as far to the side as is required by your triangle. I guess each person must figure out what is most comfortable to them. 
Dave Nowlin


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## Dave Nowlin (May 21, 2003)

Another thing I must point out is the very narrow angle where the forearm comes very close to the arrows flight in your triangle. In my triangle the rear shoulder moves to the right far enough to allow a line draw through it to intercept a line brought straight back from the arrow. Now study the angle of the forearm relative to the arrows flight. The forearm is much farther away form the path of the bow string. This method is much more ouchless.
Dave Nowlin


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Yup, it's not for everyone. It does require cranking the head.*



Dave Nowlin said:


> There is yet another way to shoot that also forms a triangle. There is a straight line from my bow hand to my left shoulder, There is a straight line from my left shoulder to my right elbow and there is a straight line from my elbow through the arrow. I shoot a Carter Two Shot release and anchor with the knuckle of my right index finger tucked into to the pocket formed behind my right ear lobe. Therefore there are three straight lines. My shoulders aren't parallel to the arrow. The difference here is whether you want to form an angle at your front shoulder or at your rear shoulder. For me my way is more comfortable. I don't like turning my head as far to the side as is required by your triangle. I guess each person must figure out what is most comfortable to them.
> Dave Nowlin


Yup.

Not for everyone. It does require quite a bit of rotation on the head.
Bow hand position on the grip is critical. Gotta have the knuckles
on the bow hand at 45 degrees or as close to flat as you can get, in order
to rotate the bow arm elbow and keep it away from the string.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Lug, the power triangle theory has been out there quite a while - But still we see many many archers using classic style (or something inbetween). How would you comment that, and what are possible benefits that classic style gives, or if there are any draw-backs of the power triangle?
I figured there had to be some kind of trade-offs in both styles, or one of these techniques would have been discarded by the majority of archers.


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## nub. (Mar 13, 2004)

*I'm 48*

Been in construction for about 30 of that. I believe I'm closer to Daves triangle. There isn't much I do that doesn't cause me pain. Perhaps I'll call my form Nubs Power Rectangle!


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Good information, and a TTT! Dont worry Pat, if you didnt print it, I did. We can work on it and measure at the range, if I can ever talk you into coming back out! :wink: 
Good thing to remember is that it may not work for everyone, but I am gonna look at what I am doing now ( or have Pat look at it ) and try this and Dave's method.


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Also Lug Nut, I am copying this to the tuning forum, if you dont want it there, let me know and I will remove it. May be able to reach out more over there also.


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

Nuts and Bolts,

Is this the "head rotation/head cranking" that you're talking about? After seeing the pics of me shooting, I was concerned that I'm sticking my head out like a turtle. But that's what it takes for me to see through the peep. Maybe it's not so bad afterall????


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Hello Dado....it's about finding the magic DL to hold rock steady*



Dado said:


> Lug, the power triangle theory has been out there quite a while - But still we see many many archers using classic style (or something inbetween). How would you comment that, and what are possible benefits that classic style gives, or if there are any draw-backs of the power triangle?
> I figured there had to be some kind of trade-offs in both styles, or one of these techniques would have been discarded by the majority of archers.


Hello Dado:

It's all about that magic quest to find the draw length that will allow us to hold rock steady. I break this down further to find the ratio of d-loop size AND bow draw length setting that will allow us to hold rock steady.

So, first, we find the total length (d-loop PLUS bow DL) that fits our body structure. You know all the combinations of:
wide shoulders, short arms
medium shoulders, long arms,
narrow shoulders, medium arms, etc.

You get the idea.

From a biomechanical perspective, the end of the nock will be somewhere under the shooting eye. It may be under the cornea, it may be mid-line or the shooting eye, it may be closer to the rear of the shooting eye. This at least gives a general guidline and allows for some degree of variability for the shooter.

Adjusting the length of the d-loop will allow for the slightly elevated elbow,
or for the in-line elbow. Again, this allows for shooter individual preference.

Once a shooter is at this general starting point,
then we can experiment with the one additional 360-degree twist in the bow string or taking out one 360-degree twist on the bowstring.

These extra twists added or taken out of the bowstring are micro adjustments to the release side shoulder blade to spine spacing.

These extra twists added or taken out also are micro adjustments to the angle of the bow arm and the two shoulders.

Above all, the shooter must be comfortable.

James Park and Kisik Lee are both advocating the very narrow "power triangle", as I refer to it.

This does require a greater degree of range of motion with respect to the turning of the head to see through the peep.

Every shooters "narrowness" of the power triangle is going to vary based on the shooter's degree of flexibility and anatomy (shallow chest, medium chest or barrel chest cross section).

The power triangle is the foundation of the "push-pull" school of thought.
If you have tried "push the bow arm" and "pull with the release elbow" in order to rip your bow into two pieces,
and
found that you miss left (for a right hand shooter),
then a narrower power triangle will help.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Sure, thank you. Didn't think of that.*



fasst said:


> Also Lug Nut, I am copying this to the tuning forum, if you dont want it there, let me know and I will remove it. May be able to reach out more over there also.


Sure, thank you.

I am honored.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Looks fine to me.*



kcarcherguy said:


> Nuts and Bolts,
> 
> Is this the "head rotation/head cranking" that you're talking about? After seeing the pics of me shooting, I was concerned that I'm sticking my head out like a turtle. But that's what it takes for me to see through the peep. Maybe it's not so bad afterall????


Your foot position tells me that you are doing just fine.


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## Dave Nowlin (May 21, 2003)

Unless something is wrong with my eyes, KCArcher apears to be holding his bow as I described. Lugnut study his picture very carefully and see what you think.
Dave Nowlin


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Yup, could be.*



Dave Nowlin said:


> Unless something is wrong with my eyes, KCArcher apears to be holding his bow as I described. Lugnut study his picture very carefully and see what you think.
> Dave Nowlin


Kinda depends how close his bow shoulder is to the string.

His forward foot looks to be past the target line.

I usually get people to do this to help rotate the hips
and hence the bow shoulder closer to the arrow path.

I agree with you that KCArcher may have a "wider" power triangle,
rather than the absolute two shoulders and the bow hand in a single line.
KCArcher may have a little bend in the shoulder joint, but if he is holding steadier, then that's AOK.


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## Donhudd (Sep 21, 2002)

lug nut

this narrow tri-angle is what I have been trying to achieve without great success. The narrower the tri-angle the more the bone structure is involved and the steadier I hold. I have been too hard headed to try closing the stance past the traditional toes parallel to the target line. I will try dropping the right foot back a little to close the triangle more tomorrow for sure. Thanks for the diagram.


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## insatiable (Feb 8, 2005)

*Shoulder positions seem impossible*

Can you post a behind the archer position showing the correct shoulder position? I don't see how its possible to have your left shoulder (rt hand archer) rotated such that it's "inside" the rights shoulder, that makes the shoulder to shoulder plane aim right of the target which seems you'd have to be a contortionist to accomplish that and shoot accurately.
Insatiable


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## RAP66 (Apr 4, 2006)

Like i said in the other forum: Make this a Sticky:darkbeer:


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Dave Nowlin said:


> Another thing I must point out is the very narrow angle where the forearm comes very close to the arrows flight in your triangle. In my triangle the rear shoulder moves to the right far enough to allow a line draw through it to intercept a line brought straight back from the arrow. Now study the angle of the forearm relative to the arrows flight. The forearm is much farther away form the path of the bow string. This method is much more ouchless.
> Dave Nowlin


I do a left handed version of your style.


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## Dave Nowlin (May 21, 2003)

Maybe some shadow effect is playing tricks on my eyes. There are some things I think I am seeing. (1) I'm not looking directly into his right shoulder. I'm looking down his back at an anle going toward the left. (2) His bow arm is still visible to the right of his body and so is the bow. This leads me to believe from what I can see at this camera angle, that his stance is really more like mine. It appears as though there is a slight angle at his left shoulder and there appears to be a straight line from his left shoulder to his right elbow. I'm not trying to be arguementative here. I'm just trying to understand what I am seeing. Am I looking at this all wrong?
Dave Nowlin


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