# Women's head coach



## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

USA Archery will be hiring a full time women's head coach. Who will it be? Any guesses?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...e-Staff-and-Hiring-National-Womens-Head-Coach


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Dont know why they dont just send the OTC archers to HSS Academy in Irvine. 


Chris


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Do you guys really have a mens squad so big they can't fit the women in?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Its not about size, its that what has worked on the mens side isnt working for the women's.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

chrstphr said:


> Dont know why they dont just send the OTC archers to HSS Academy in Irvine.
> 
> 
> Chris


That would require USA Archery to allow the ladies to shoot non-NTS.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes. Exactly. 


Do they want a squad that wins? Or one that shoots NTS? 


It wont really matter anyway once the younger crop coming up that dont shoot NTS make the USA team and Olympic team. Then you have NTS coaches trying to oversee a ladies team that shoots the Korean system.

And the NTS system certainly hasnt worked for the last 8 years with the USA womens team.



Chris


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

I am curious to see who the head coach is! 
For the women, is NTS really to blame or the talent pool/numbers? If NTS works for men, I don't see why it (apparently) doesn't work for women.

Side thought: Maybe it's actually the level of mental training/discipline for the women....what if it was given more emphasis to the women's team compared to the men? I believe women in general need it more. It would be interesting if the women's team gets to have a truly separate program.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

chrstphr said:


> Yes. Exactly.
> 
> 
> Do they want a squad that wins? Or one that shoots NTS?
> ...


Right but disregarding the fact that there are Korean Olympic medallists coaching at HSS, how many top level international athletes has HSS produced? This is not a jab, I just don't have any knowledge of any.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

One of her kids qualified and shot an indoor world cup. She has a number of kids, they have just not aged up yet. 

Much like me. My kids (who i also send to them) are just aging into cadet age. I do have a student that she now teaches that is shooting 640 range at 70 meters routinely and should make RA next year.

I cant think of a better coach than someone who made international teams, won the gold medal at the most important event in our sport, and is actively a coach. 

Thats like saying you dont want a lesson from Rick McKinney or Daryl Pace. Those athletes are a no brainer. Same for HSS academy. No brainer. 

As an aside Arsi, you should have a lesson with them. I did, and in 5 minutes they got me inline. Something i had never been able to do own my own. Also gave me the tools to fix my target panic. 


Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

iArch said:


> I am curious to see who the head coach is!
> For the women, is NTS really to blame or the talent pool/numbers? If NTS works for men, I don't see why it (apparently) doesn't work for women.
> 
> Side thought: Maybe it's actually the level of mental training/discipline for the women....what if it was given more emphasis to the women's team compared to the men? I believe women in general need it more. It would be interesting if the women's team gets to have a truly separate program.


Yeah I would think you should be particularly curious about this one. =p


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

I mean whatever direction they go, I think it is a good thing. I'm not fully aware of how much support the ladies get in their coaching. But I remember someone pointed out that if they had the same support, we would see Mack on the cover of Lancaster, alongside Brady...


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## paper shooter 2 (Jun 30, 2016)

Perhaps Seo Hyang-soon does not need the additional hassle of taking on the US women's team. It looks like she is doing well as is.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

What about Mike Usherenko? Wasn't he Khatuna's coach? I have never met him or what his current status is though.

And what happened to Coach Mel? Wasn't he the women's team coach at one point?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

All I can say is I am very glad to see USArchery make this decision and move in this direction. I have been saying for YEARS now that our women deserve a head coach that is as good, if not better, than Lee is with the men.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arsi said:


> I mean whatever direction they go, I think it is a good thing. I'm not fully aware of how much support the ladies get in their coaching. But I remember someone pointed out that if they had the same support, we would see Mack on the cover of Lancaster, alongside Brady...


Huh. I wonder who said that?


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## AR720 (Jun 28, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> Do they want a squad that wins? Or one that shoots NTS?
> 
> 
> It wont really matter anyway once the younger crop coming up that dont shoot NTS make the USA team and Olympic team. Then you have NTS coaches trying to oversee a ladies team that shoots the Korean system.
> ...


The podiums for female recurve juniors and cadets at USAT events are more or less dominated by kids from Joy Lee Archery Academy - who all shoot NTS.

Also, NTS and the "Korean System" are not as incompatible as you make it seem. Park Hye-Youn (former Korean national team member) is an NTS coach, and her performance in these last two years speaks for itself. Recently, the OTC brought Joo Hyun-jung (2008 team gold medalist from Korea) over to speak to the Junior Dream Team.



chrstphr said:


> One of her kids qualified and shot an indoor world cup. She has a number of kids, they have just not aged up yet.
> 
> Much like me. My kids (who i also send to them) are just aging into cadet age. I do have a student that she now teaches that is shooting 640 range at 70 meters routinely and should make RA next year.
> 
> ...


Both of the kids you mentioned (the one who qualified for and shot an indoor world championship and the one who should make RA next year) are male. Your examples show that HSS does better with men than women, just like at the OTC...so maybe it's not the technique taught that's the issue after all.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Also, NTS and the "Korean System" are not as incompatible as you make it seem. *Park Hye-Youn (former Korean national team member) is an NTS coach*, and her performance in these last two years speaks for itself. Recently, the OTC brought Joo Hyun-jung (2008 team gold medalist from Korea) over to speak to the Junior Dream Team.


Yea, so am I, but I don't always teach NTS. Your example is not relevant unless she herself is shooting NTS. Is she?


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## AR720 (Jun 28, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, so am I, but I don't always teach NTS. Your example is not relevant unless she herself is shooting NTS. Is she?


You're right. That example is irrelevant without evidence of her shooting NTS. At this point, my other points remain true.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

AR720 said:


> The podiums for female recurve juniors and cadets at USAT events are more or less dominated by kids from Joy Lee Archery Academy - who all shoot NTS.


but not the podiums for bowmen and cub. As i said, they are aging up into those divisions. Lets have this conversation in 4 years. 

And yes, Joo Hyun Jung did go to the OTC. But she does not shoot NTS. Quite a few international archers go to the OTC and the Easton centers. That is a good thing. I hope more of that happens. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm just gonna pray we get a good one. Our women deserve it.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

chrstphr said:


> but not the podiums for bowmen and cub. As i said, they are aging up into those divisions. Lets have this conversation in 4 years.
> 
> And yes, Joo Hyun Jung did go to the OTC. But she does not shoot NTS. Quite a few international archers go to the OTC and the Easton centers. That is a good thing. I hope more of that happens.
> 
> ...


It might be important to note that the Joy Lee kids, once they age up, end up going to college and getting on with their life. If I had a dollar for every Joy Lee male kid that aged up from Cadet and Junior that I have shot one Qualifier event (mock tournament hosted by Janet Dykman) and then I never saw again, then I'd be fairly rich. I know this thread is talking about ladies but at least from the gents, some of the rising stars like Jin Kim moved on and is enrolled at MIT. Sean Chang is at Stanford (though he did shoot Indoor Nationals and has told me he is looking at getting back into competing next year). Kevin Kim is tearing it up right now but I know he is looking at colleges.

It may just not be appealing enough for these young stars to continue with archery when they would like to have a more secure future. They don't have the luxury of monetary support that other countries do for their archers. Ask any of the last wave of RAs what they are doing. Many of them are going back to college...

Also this article on the HSS site is interesting. One of the coaches discussing their desire to quit archery but has found enjoyment on coaching kids as an extra curricular, rather than a main driving force in their life.

http://www.hsssportsacademy.com/no-time-to-rest/

"Asked whether she intends to coach an archer up to her past caliber, she said: “If a second Seo means a gold medalist, no, I don’t.”

“Sometimes I spot children with proper physique and a good feel for archery, but I first ask myself if an archery career would be really good for them. Victory or a gold medal should not be the foremost goal. To be a happy sportsman should come first.”"


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If I had a dollar for every Joy Lee male kid that aged up from Cadet and Junior that I have shot one Qualifier event (mock tournament hosted by Janet Dykman) and then I never saw again, then I'd be fairly rich.


I could say that about any coach I know that coaches teenagers. That's not unique to her program.



> “Sometimes I spot children with proper physique and a good feel for archery, but I first ask myself if an archery career would be really good for them. Victory or a gold medal should not be the foremost goal. To be a happy sportsman should come first.”"


Indeed it should, but I find it interesting they would feel this is their call, and not the kid's.


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## AR720 (Jun 28, 2016)

Arsi said:


> It might be important to note that the Joy Lee kids, once they age up, end up going to college and getting on with their life. If I had a dollar for every Joy Lee male kid that aged up from Cadet and Junior that I have shot one Qualifier event (mock tournament hosted by Janet Dykman) and then I never saw again, then I'd be fairly rich. I know this thread is talking about ladies but at least from the gents, some of the rising stars like Jin Kim moved on and is enrolled at MIT. Sean Chang is at Stanford (though he did shoot Indoor Nationals and has told me he is looking at getting back into competing next year). Kevin Kim is tearing it up right now but I know he is looking at colleges.
> 
> It may just not be appealing enough for these young stars to continue with archery when they would like to have a more secure future. They don't have the luxury of monetary support that other countries do for their archers. Ask any of the last wave of RAs what they are doing. Many of them are going back to college...


This exact phenomenon happens with HSS kids as well. A majority of their junior age shooters, including the one that shot the indoor world championship mentioned before, have quit shooting recently to focus on getting into the best colleges they can.

That being said, I'm not aware of many HSS kids shooting in college, but I do know that most of the top collegiate recurve ladies shoot NTS.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Youth results to me don't translate to national team coach for adults. Different distances, younger mentalities, lower performance expectations. It is an accomplishment to train a kid to shoot 300 outside but if what you really need is someone who can teach an adult to shoot more like 330 so we are more competitive internationally, do you have those tools. Domestically I'd be more concerned with production of female adult competitors worthy of USAT, RA, adult podia, Trials. If we're hiring a JDT coach then kids produced matters more.

The comparison in soccer would be that someone who coaches a youth national team or the like would likely be asked to have some success with an adult pro team before anyone would hand them the full senior national team. Bruce Arena coached UVa, then DC's pro team, before he got the USMNT job. People would not assume someone who coaches college age kids, even to multiple national titles, could coach the best adults in the country successfully.

Far as the "age up" discussion goes, you want most coaches to put sports in perspective, however, for the one team that can devote itself to the sport for that gender in the whole land, with an attrition problem to boot, it should be a red flag if you routinely burn out or age out your archers. You would actually be concerned with retention here. They wouldn't necessarily need to be Mr. or Ms. Perspective, since training all day at the pinnacle is actually what people that level want. But also not be running archers off.

I'd be looking at international coaches with a resume, or domestic coaches who produce high scorers or several of the USAT/RA/Trialist types. It has to be someone with something to offer to raise the performance of that level of archer, who can produce that level from RAs and development, and then try and raise it to make it more competitive.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Questions: 

If one removes Brady from the discussion, what are the notable NTS successes the last 8 years in international competitions, of either gender? 

Question for NTS fans: How long of a timeframe does NTS 'get' to produce international successes (aside from Brady) for both genders before methodology rethink comes into play?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

NTS is a domestic training system exclusive to the USA. It's a system. Used by the USA. And the USA brought home some medals with it.

What else are you folks looking for? Other countries to copy your system to beat you? 

Really?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Do you guys know what your objectives are and where your priorities lie? I'm just curious.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As a coach, I have been lucky to have coached tens of archers that during the years have won Olympic Medals (ok, my son only..), World Championships, Continental championships and a countless number of international medals and nationals champion titles. But as of this lifespan experience, I can say that to make an archer growing at real international level takes a lot of factors, were the coach is just one of them. First of all, a lot of time and patience (form the coach). Then, a talented boy or girl (yes, talent is essential) with helpful parents (not interfering, just supporting in time and a lot of money for equipment’s, transports and all supporting needs). Then the boy or girl must be in good physical shape for archery, be strong, have a good education, be getting good results at school despite a lot of time to dedicate to archery, have no other interests than archery and understand that getting results takes time and dedication. Then of course there are different situations usually developing for boys and girls, were girls reach physical and mental maturity much earlier than boys, but are more easy to be kept strictly in the training rules and habits. easier to coach, as I said many times.
Year after year, the coach can easily see if the talent develops in the proper way to become a really good archer, but the coach cannot control external factors that may generate a total break in the development of even the best possible student. Change in school, changes in family, new boyfriend/girlfriend not involved in archery, or simply a sudden change of mind because pressure was becoming too much. So, as I ever say to parents, I will never know if a student will become a top level archer until he does. But I will know very soon if he/she will never do, of course. The full cycle to very top level takes 7 years average in western world, 5 years in Korea. If after 7 years, at 18 years old student is at not a top level already, he/she will never be. This makes decision to expand Junior class to 20 years a bit ridiculous, in my opinion, but this is another story. 
The most important skill of a women coach over a men only coach is the capability to communicate with girls, as well as to be able to adapt their shooting style to their body shape and physical strength. Korean standard shooting style is not good for all, but same are overdrawing styles, and then you have to face with girls several kind of target panic appearing suddenly much often than with boys. Koreans can standardize teaching to girls as they simply eliminate those not matching it at the initial selection process, when they are 10. We can't do this as our numbers are small and we cannot discard anyone. So, this is the only reason why the women coach have to be some time much different in skills from the men coach, and why also almost all Korean coaches have failed with girls outside Korea. Standard teaching of any kind can't work with all girls, simply.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Superb observations Vittorio. You can bet I will share that with the parents of my students moving forward.


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## Tbarkeriii (Jun 24, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Superb observations Vittorio. You can bet I will share that with the parents of my students moving forward.


I agree. Cut and paste that into the archery wisdom file.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Vittorio said:


> If after 7 years, at 18 years old student is at not a top level already, he/she will never be.


I would think the archer could continue to improve if they keep practicing beyond 7 years. The archer is only 18~20. He or she has more time to get to the top level, so you can never rule that out right? :noidea: Can anyone explain?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This is a general rule of thumb. There are always exceptions. But archers like Vic, Brady, Michele, Jenny, Miranda and Khatuna were all world class archers by the time they were 20. So this is the accepted norm. But there are a few exceptions out there. Always are.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Anyone can present information and techniques, anyone can be riged in a belief system and you either conform or your out. But there are very few people that are flexible in their styles and learn how their students think and work and works with that to fine tune to maximize the student to their potential. I just hope we have a coach that isn't rigid in their own system, but is more focused on developing archers to their potential even if it may seem odd when compared to other styles.

And women are very different then men in many different ways. And that makes them wonderful


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> This is a general rule of thumb. There are always exceptions. But archers like Vic, Brady, Michele, Jenny, Miranda and Khatuna were all world class archers by the time they were 20. So this is the accepted norm. But there are a few exceptions out there. Always are.


 and Darrel Pace, Justin Huish, Rod White, Marco Galiazzo, Natalia Valeeva, ...Zach Garret... not to mention countless Korean names ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Understood. Which is why it's a rule of thumb. But you have to also consider that there are a LOT of 30-something athletes who spent their youth playing other sports, and are VERY athletic. If they all the sudden chose to shoot archery, then it wouldn't take them 7 years to reach a world class level. 

Let's not forget, the overwhelming majority of great athletes worldwide, are playing other sports. Give me a NCAA individual champion in another sport and the rule of thumb goes out the window.

If I were in charge of the women's team, the very first thing I would do is start a targeted recruiting program to locate female college athletes who I could pull into the program. Because this is what we have lacked here in the US. Women who were also great athletes, and understood what it means to train like an athlete. 

Actually, this is true for nearly all archers. They shoot archery because it is a non-contact sport where they never get yelled at and never have to ride the bench if they underperform. For years now I have said my biggest challenge as a coach is not having a bench to sit archers on because they aren't giving a good effort.

One of the first people I'd meet with is the UConn women's head basketball coach, and I'd pick her brain for everything I could get.


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## Tbarkeriii (Jun 24, 2016)

"One of the first people I'd meet with is the UConn women's head basketball coach, and I'd pick *HIS* brain for everything I could get."

FIFY


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tbarkeriii said:


> "One of the first people I'd meet with is the UConn women's head basketball coach, and I'd pick *HIS* brain for everything I could get."
> 
> FIFY


My bad. I was thinking of Pat Summitt. But yea, I'd pick HIS brain too. 

Too many great coaches of top female AMERICAN athletes out there, to ignore the fact that the expertise we need, lies right here within our own country.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Oh..to clarify- I meant the 18 yr old who has already spent 7 years in archery, could theoretically spend another 7 years to get to the top level.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Understood. Which is why it's a rule of thumb. But you have to also consider that there are a LOT of 30-something athletes who spent their youth playing other sports, and are VERY athletic. If they all the sudden chose to shoot archery, then it wouldn't take them 7 years to reach a world class level.
> ........


This was an idea around for many years , and also already tested in many countries, USA included, if I well remember, but it never worked. Those athlets from other sports have not been grown in archery for archery, so the proabability they may adapt body and mind to it in 3 or 4 years are quite inexistent, and in any case they will end up top be too old to be competitive. It may still work for a while in Compound, as competitiveness is not at zenith, yet, in this specialty, but for recurve it is mattter of the past. Compound at present is under fast development in many countries, and in around 4 or 5 years situation wil be very close to the Recurve one.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, you certainly have more experience in this area than I have, but I am still willing to say that a 20-25 year old high level athlete who is trained correctly from the beginning, will by the time they are 30, have every chance of shooting as well as a 20 year old who started at 13. The trouble with this sport is that too many things get in the way of 30 year-olds. It's not the fact that it won't work, it's the fact that the 30 year-olds have to make a living outside the sport, while the 20 year-olds are still on mom and dad's nickel. 

Take all those archers you mention. Darrell, Justin, Vic, your son, etc. - put them out in the working world where they have to pay rent and bills while they are learning archery, and then tell me if they become world class archers. This isn't an age thing so much as it is a support thing. And what sponsor is going to fully support a 30 year-old archer who has 3-5 years in the sport? Very few.

I think - at least in my own mind - that I proved what a 34 year-old athlete could do in this sport with a minimum of experience. Hell, my highest indoor and outdoor scores came at the age of 42. Given the luxury of training full time and some good coaching, keeping up with Vic and Butch would have been pretty easy actually. And I can think of several other guys my age who could have easily done this as well. Has anyone really looked at the scores Thomas Stanwood was shooting? And he finished his law degree and was a working attorney at the time.

The idea that the top archers are such great athletes with a special skill set does not hold water when you consider athletes who played college baseball and football, or who switched from college basketball to the NFL. 

I'm not trying to diminish what any of our best archers can do, but let's not make believe that our sport has the best athletes. It doesn't. They are all playing more high profile and more lucrative sports. At least here in the U.S. and most other countries. In Korea, that may not be the case.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Is there not an issue "pulling" athletes from other sports in that they likely lack the "love" that gets you up at 5am and keeps you shooting for hours on end?

Its right that the kids who are good at one sport are likley good at most but surely the initial draw to the sport must come from within.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, this will always be an issue. But how do they know until they try? I didn't try archery as a "sport" until I was 33 years old.


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## Osiris155 (Jun 27, 2016)

Who here has applied for the position?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Who here wants to live in San Deigo?


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Osiris155 said:


> Who here has applied for the position?


Hmmm ... what does the job pay?


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

I have a feeling the career listing is just for show.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lksseven said:


> Hmmm ... what does the job pay?



I asked twice. They refused to give a range. Why would anyone bother to apply for a job they would have to relocate for, with no idea whatsoever of the pay?

Doesnt sound like they really want someone.


Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> I asked twice. They refused to give a range. Why would anyone bother to apply for a job they would have to relocate for, with no idea whatsoever of the pay?
> 
> Doesnt sound like they really want someone.
> 
> ...


It is quite common for an employment ad to say "Salary commensurate with experience". I would think for a position like this one, everything would be negotiable.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> It is quite common for an employment ad to say "Salary commensurate with experience". I would think for a position like this one, everything would be negotiable.


Not so common when the person will most likely HAVE to relocate. Not many world class archery coaches living in San Deigo that wouldnt already be active at the OTC . That type of listing should have a salary range for applicants. 

Will they seriously pay $500k or more if the person is most qualified? or is there a ceiling of $40K? 

If Park Sung Hyun applied and wanted $250K, could they meet her price? not much point in negotiating if your USA archery budget for the position wouldnt be in the ballpark. 


Chris


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Is it not more likely they already have the successful candidate but are required to advertise externally to fulfil some sort of fairness criteria.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> Not so common when the person will most likely HAVE to relocate. Not many world class archery coaches living in San Deigo that wouldnt already be active at the OTC . That type of listing should have a salary range for applicants.
> 
> Will they seriously pay $500k or more if the person is most qualified? or is there a ceiling of $40K?
> 
> ...


Why are you making up numbers you couldn't possibly support? A salary range? Compared to what? What do you know about USAA salary caps? And if the best coach in the country is currently making $50k for example, why would you think they could demand $250K? I don't think it reflects the real world. Sorry. 

Here's an article about salary ranges and why they may not be pre-announced: http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs.../why-employers-wont-name-a-salary-range-first

BTW, IRS Publication 521 describes the tax deductions allowable for moving expenses excluding reimbursements received from your prospective employer.

Fwiw


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

What is Coach Lee's salary and other perks? Why wouldn't his pay scale be 'the range'?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

who knows what he makes, or if they will pay the Women's coach the same amount.


Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

toj said:


> Is there not an issue "pulling" athletes from other sports in that they likely lack the "love" that gets you up at 5am and keeps you shooting for hours on end?
> 
> Its right that the kids who are good at one sport are likley good at most but surely the initial draw to the sport must come from within.


At the range I practice at these days, there is a steady stream of people trying the sport. I get the "drive must come within" but one of the issues I see in US Archery is people knowing target archery exists. When they do I think it's actually a naturally intriguing concept. The problem is more getting people intrigued. There are former jocks out there like Bo Jackson who are already doing it as hunters. I see this idea as actually part of getting archery "more out there" where interested athletes would even think to try it.

You look at US Bobsled and they actually hold combines where they run gifted athletes through physical tests, run for time, etc., looking for pushers. Granted, the driver is usually someone brought up in the sport, but there is actually precedent for this. The difference is, whether through outreach or publicity, jocks know the bobsled thing is out there. I'm not interested in that and live in a warm weather state but even I know it exists.

You don't have to "pull" athletes against their will. There are a lot of routine transition periods in athletes' lives. People who get drafted into the pros but get cut. People who played sports through college and didn't progress or try to progress to the pros, ticketed for normal life. People who play sports into adulthood but pick up an injury, and looking for something new. Bobsled gets some current track runners, but mostly it's retired pros or people who didn't quite cut it, but have definite athleticism.

I still think the paradigm for archery, as for soccer, is the people who start at 10 and grow up into it. However the idea that this is the only pipeline into the sport is myopic.
I know someone headed into women's RA who's been at this less than 2 years and comes from college tennis.

As long as you're not undermining RA/USAT, it strikes me as at worst harmless and at best potentially productive to bring in, say, a dozen recruited athletes for 2-3 weeks and see what happens.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I would think this would be an ideal time for high level "coach shopping," end of the Olympic cycle, end of outdoor season, probably end of contracts. It intrigues me this was announced after the world cup and not just the Olympics.

I also think we have some coaches who would do a good job domestically.

I think US + San Diego + decent training setup would make it attractive, I think beyond Korea the competitive landscape is pretty open and we aren't a total mess, so it would offer that attraction.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> Why are you making up numbers you couldn't possibly support? A salary range? Compared to what? What do you know about USAA salary caps? And if the best coach in the country is currently making $50k for example, why would you think they could demand $250K? I don't think it reflects the real world. Sorry.
> 
> Here's an article about salary ranges and why they may not be pre-announced: http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs.../why-employers-wont-name-a-salary-range-first
> 
> ...


I know that top coaches in Korean make more than $200K per year. And if a country only wants to pay $50K then, you wont be getting any good coaches from Korea. Even in the USA. There can be a coach that has another job that pays $150K. He may coach locally. Why would he leave that job to take the head coach job for less. 

I know the National team Korean coaches split $300K just as a bonus for Rio medal success. 

etc etc etc etc I already stated i had no idea what the budget was for USA Archery and a head coach, and thought it was very pertinent to the results they would get. With the budget shortfalls they already have year to year, i doubt it pays much. 

I do know there were countries that wanted to hire a Korean archery coach, but they couldnt get any takers for the money they offered. And this was in the run up to Rio. Other top archery coaches from other countries would be no different. What would it take for someone of Vittorio's level to move to the USA to coach?

Sorry, but i through debating you. You just want to argue. No info other than job description, and i wouldnt be interested to apply. Even if i was the best archery coach in the world. My current gig is very good, and it take more info to get me to consider to leave. Not that i am qualified to be a national coach, nor would i want that position. 

But you can apply for jobs that you have no idea the pay range. Maybe you like to waste your time. 

Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

One reason they might not give pay grade is to allow them, with flexibility and without embarrassment on either end of the spectrum, to make either a splurge international coach hire or a domestic value hire, whom they might pay differently. That might be kind of along the lines of "commensurate with experience" but I am not sure the normal company using that phrase might be using it quite that broadly.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

^agree flexibility is the key. 

Usually you see salary ranges in government or other industries where job classifications are established and everyone knows what everyone else is paid. Think union. However, in many companies your starting salary is based on your KSE, Knowledge, Skills, and Experience and is negotiable. I would think a person going in knows what he or she is worth. A coach applying for this position could very well state their salary requirements. Publicizing a salary range is not in USAA's best interest imho.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> What is Coach Lee's salary and other perks?


From which source?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> From which source?


Well, yes, that can become kind of a complicated conversation, what with slush funds and other things that may or may not (but of course they do) exist. 

What I meant to get at was that in this day and age of everything being a lightning rod tinderbox of race or gender offense, I'd be surprised if Coach Lee (a male coaching males) would be making $250k (just to pick a number) but USA Archery would think they could get away with hiring a female coach to coach females and pay $100k (I can see the cameras rolling and picket lines forming already). So, it would seem that an oblique way to get at what a coach for the females might be paid is to assume that it would be in the same general neighborhood as Coach Lee's salary package?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I hope we get a great women's coach, but I also hope that she makes EXACTLY the same amount as Lee, including "perks" and bonuses from, oh, you know... wherever.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

USA Archery does post their financials on their website that includes some salary info for Coach Lee, Denise Parker, etc.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arsi said:


> USA Archery does post their financials on their website that includes some salary info for Coach Lee, Denise Parker, etc.


Yuppers.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> I hope we get a great women's coach, but I also hope that she makes EXACTLY the same amount as Lee, including "perks" and bonuses from, oh, you know... wherever.


So, just for discussions sake, why would the next women's head coach be a female? 

Flip side to that, why would the next coach be a male?

Just curious. 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

KSL is at the Korean Sports Festival Archery tournament so I hope he brings home a souvenir/Korean coach for us


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> So, just for discussions sake, why would the next women's head coach be a female?
> 
> Flip side to that, why would the next coach be a male?
> 
> ...


Steve, you've been married how long now? And you have to ask? LOL.

But seriously, there are very few men who possess the skill set that coaching women requires. There are some, but they are few and far between. For those who do, my hat is off to them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iArch said:


> KSL is at the Korean Sports Festival Archery tournament so I hope he brings home a souvenir/Korean coach for us


I hope we find a Korean coach who Lee can learn a thing or two from.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Beastmaster said:


> So, just for discussions sake, why would the next women's head coach be a female?
> 
> Flip side to that, why would the next coach be a male?
> 
> ...


Because it's a human and we have two genders? Flip of the coin?

If the best suited candidate is a female, hire the female. 
If the best suited candidate is a male, hire the male.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, you've been married how long now? And you have to ask? LOL.
> 
> But seriously, there are very few men who possess the skill set that coaching women requires. There are some, but they are few and far between. For those who do, my hat is off to them.


Hehe....true. But I do feel that we (as in USA Archery) should be open in case one of those rarities comes across and is willing to do the job.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Hehe....true. But I do feel that we (as in USA Archery) should be open in case one of those rarities comes across and is willing to do the job.


As an observation, at the international level, the most successful coaches in our sport, in terms of coaching women, including American women, have all been men- and one of America's most successful men's archery coaches, is a woman.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

iArch said:


> KSL is at the Korean Sports Festival Archery tournament so I hope he brings home a souvenir/Korean coach for us


Wow....


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

You guys know that there is at least one Korean archer/coach reading this forum, don't you?

No, I'm not talking about Kisik Lee.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Hehe....true. But I do feel that we (as in USA Archery) should be open in case one of those rarities comes across and is willing to do the job.


Oh, of course. I can think of one male coach here in the US who has proven results with women.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

I'd have to respectfully differ with the part about Joy Lee students dominating the cadet and junior ladies podiums. Out of a possible 27 medals this past year in the cadet division (all five outdoor competitions plus JOAD Indoor Nationals/Indoor Nationals) two definitely, and possibly four medals were taken by that clubs students. That hardly seems dominant. In ladies junior there were possibly three or four, very hard to tell with the way the divisions are mixed junior/senior.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> As an observation, at the international level, the most successful coaches in our sport, in terms of coaching women, including American women, have all been men- and one of America's most successful men's archery coaches, is a woman.


I have made the same observation, George. Too many cases not to find a common sense from them. Someone will comment "just because men coaches are much more in number than women coaches", and also this may make sense, but then why only one lady coach from Korea has been seen on the internationa fields with women up to now (Lee Eum Kyung)? They have plenty of women coaches ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I was going to point out the numbers game...

It's really shocking, this day and age, how sexist archery is as a sport. When you consider the # of women head coaches, then consider the payouts at major events, then consider the sponsor endorsements... It's a wonder any female archer outside of Korea takes this sport seriously. Not only is there no good way for them to make a living (or even just recoup their costs), there is no career path after archery.

For a sport that levels the playing field as much as archery does, and considering all the interest from young ladies in the sport of late, hopefully these things will start to change.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

One thing I'd say on that is transparency as to who does what is helpful. You can see the payouts at Vegas for last season and see the disparities men to women. But if you compare it to Nimes, they have a breakdown of what is WA/Nimes, what Easton's prize is, Hoyt's, etc. It's telling to me, because at least for the foreign world cups, it looks like the tournament prizes are identical across bows and genders, and disparities start to come in with certain sponsors directing more money to compounds and to men. Looking at Nimes, Easton and Mathews employ equity but a RM winner makes more from Hoyt than does a CW winner, even though CM makes more than 3 times what RM gets. CW and RW are the same numbers for Hoyt. If you think about it that's odd and the only explanation is gender-driven.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

http://nimesarchery.com/fr/programme-championnat-du-monde-tir-a-larc

[scroll down]


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Azzurri said:


> One thing I'd say on that is transparency as to who does what is helpful. You can see the payouts at Vegas for last season and see the disparities men to women. But if you compare it to Nimes, they have a breakdown of what is WA/Nimes, what Easton's prize is, Hoyt's, etc. It's telling to me, because at least for the foreign world cups, it looks like the tournament prizes are identical across bows and genders, and disparities start to come in with certain sponsors directing more money to compounds and to men. Looking at Nimes, Easton and Mathews employ equity but a RM winner makes more from Hoyt than does a CW winner, even though CM makes more than 3 times what RM gets. CW and RW are the same numbers for Hoyt. If you think about it that's odd and the only explanation is gender-driven.


Frankly, I think it is just about number of participants in the Class and their target market , also in numbers and valu. You can say same for prizes in the Junior classes, for instance.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I was going to point out the numbers game...
> 
> It's really shocking, this day and age, how sexist archery is as a sport. When you consider the # of women head coaches, then consider the payouts at major events, then consider the sponsor endorsements... It's a wonder any female archer outside of Korea takes this sport seriously. Not only is there no good way for them to make a living (or even just recoup their costs), there is no career path after archery.
> 
> For a sport that levels the playing field as much as archery does, and considering all the interest from young ladies in the sport of late, hopefully these things will start to change.


I will have to disagree with that statement.
The fact that there is no career path after archery is more or less true both for men and women in most countries.
Some countries give a job in the armed forces, police etc to their top athletes so they can train and have a job to fall back to when their career ends. This hold true for both genders, I am sure Vittorio will attest to that as Italy is one of these countries.
In the US apart from Brady Ellison and a couple of other recurve guys how many are there that can support themselves by doing archery?
In most countries archery takes a back seat to other sports, regardless of the gender of the athletes.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Don't you find it strange that the very group of people who are supposed to be disadvantaged by the state of affairs (allegedly), are totally silent?

You are all disadvantaged, aren't you? Speak up for yourselves.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> Yes. Exactly.
> 
> 
> Do they want a squad that wins? Or one that shoots NTS?
> ...


I don't understand why NTS (whch doesn't work for everyone) is pushed so much. I know of a very promising young lady that has quit Olympic style archery because her coach told her she HAS to re learn what she has been doing for years to fit into the new method of teaching, she couldn't do it and quit.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Anyone can present information and techniques, anyone can be riged in a belief system and you either conform or your out. But there are very few people that are flexible in their styles and learn how their students think and work and works with that to fine tune to maximize the student to their potential. I just hope we have a coach that isn't rigid in their own system, but is more focused on developing archers to their potential even if it may seem odd when compared to other styles.
> 
> And women are very different then men in many different ways. And that makes them wonderful


Archery seesm to be going through something similar to martial arts in the late 60's and 70's.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

teebat said:


> I don't understand why NTS (whch doesn't work for everyone) is pushed so much. I know of a very promising young lady that has quit Olympic style archery because her coach told her she HAS to re learn what she has been doing for years to fit into the new method of teaching, she couldn't do it and quit.


This is precisely why i hate NTS. Please tell that young lady to try HSS academy. NTS is ruining our promising young archers. 

Its too bad she isnt in Vegas. Can you message me her email? 

Chris


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> This is precisely why i hate NTS. Please tell that young lady to try HSS academy. NTS is ruining our promising young archers.
> 
> Its too bad she isnt in Vegas. Can you message me her email?
> 
> Chris


She is not my student and this happened over a years ago. I will see what I can find out for you.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

teebat said:


> I don't understand why NTS (whch doesn't work for everyone) is pushed so much. I know of a very promising young lady that has quit Olympic style archery because her coach told her she HAS to re learn what she has been doing for years to fit into the new method of teaching, she couldn't do it and quit.


It depends on who you talk to. Frankly, if a coach forces an archer to totally redo their form because that's all the coach knows, it's time to find another coach.

From a personal philosophy, if I inherit an archer from another coach (which has happened to me recently), I will reinforce what works, and slowly try to improve what doesn't work well.

If I get a brand new archer, I will see what parts of NTS they are able to achieve, and then work with it from there. But that's me, and how I personally differ. It's not necessarily the company line.

I will say this much (and have said this publicly on Facebook and here) regarding NTS and the L2/L3/L4/L5 certifications. 

Archery Coaching has gotten to the point in a very similar manner to what your MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer), CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer), and other computer geek certs have gone. It's an evil necessity to show some level of standardized accreditation, not a level of coaching competency. We don't teach people how to coach. We don't teach people how to take advantage of NTS or other systems to the archer's advantage. And we need to.

For example, I inherited a new archer 5 weeks ago from another coach due to some sort of oddball political issue that I refused to want to know. Everyone is telling me that I need to "fix this..." or "fix that..." when the poor girl couldn't even get into alignment from the get-go. I could care less how the girl shoots - if she isn't able to keep alignment in any way, shape, or form - she's not going to hit a 60cm target even at 9 meters.

Force feeding NTS is useless at that point. Get the girl successful first from the simplest, basic level.. Then refine. But that's probably why I'm not afraid to go against the grain. I want a successful archer first and have them enjoy the sport in a safe manner. How she gets there and what system she uses is irrelevant.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> This is precisely why i hate NTS. Please tell that young lady to try HSS academy. NTS is ruining our promising young archers.
> 
> Its too bad she isnt in Vegas. Can you message me her email?
> 
> Chris


Just out of curiosity - is it NTS that is ruining the archer, or is it poor training of our coaches?

Blaming a system for "ruining" an archer is like blaming a gun used in a homicide. You can commit a homicide with a wide variety of tools, ranging from a gun to a bat. It's the act of committing the crime that's the issue.

It's the same thing with NTS. NTS isn't the issue, it's how the tool is used. Using your reasoning, I could blame push/pull for an equal amount of people exiting the sport...but I don't. 

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Just out of curiosity - is it NTS that is ruining the archer, or is it poor training of our coaches?
> 
> Blaming a system for "ruining" an archer is like blaming a gun used in a homicide. You can commit a homicide with a wide variety of tools, ranging from a gun to a bat. It's the act of committing the crime that's the issue.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Early and often, I saw the "BEST" method, then NTS, applied in a horrific way to some very young, impressionable developing archers. Sometimes by themselves, but more often by coaches who were a little too eager to prove they drank the kool-aid. 

If common sense is applied, the way Steve describes above, then NTS has as good a chance of working as any other system. The real skill in developing elite archers, is marrying the right archer to the right system.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

And that brings up another question that's been piquing my curiosity based on this thread.

Why is there an emphasis on HSS? What's so wonderful about their method of Korean linear versus, say, what Coach Kim Hyung Tak teaches? What's different?

Most coaches worth their salt will teach a hybrid. A best methods of everything, if you will, that allows the greatest level of adaptability with the greatest level of success. I've observed some of HSS's student's from a distance. I can't say that they are doing anything thrilling outside the norm...but they are far more unified within their school than some other Korean based archery schools in the California area.

-Steve


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

The imphasis on HSS is they are here. In Irvine.

I love Coach Kim Hyung Tak and his method which is the Korean linear sysyem. His book is my archery bible. But his school is in Korea. Not that accessible for the average archer here. Of course i will recommend his schoool over and over. HSS is local compared to him. If i were in the east coast, i would recommend different coaches. But for west coast archers, its HSS. 

And i blame NTS for ruining archers who already ate shooting well and the coaches change them over, and i feel NTS is ruining young archers that show talent with its methodology that is not a as good as the linear system. 

How many times do the Koreans have to sweep events befoee people finally admit its the susperior system. 

Thats like training someone in karate to be an MMA fighter while the top guys are trained in Brazilian Jujitsu. Its completely not effective in the sport. NTS is the same to me in my opinion. 

As a nationally taught system, i can name maybe 8 archers total who used some form of NTS to any success. And internationally, only one. 

Chris


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> (snip)
> How many times do the Koreans have to sweep events befoee people finally admit its the susperior system.


Then explain to me why there isn't a Korean dominance in WA Field or 3D. 

-Steve

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Then explain to me why there isn't a Korean dominance in WA Field or 3D.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


Huh? Because they don't shoot those events? Were you being serious?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Huh? Because they don't shoot those events? Were you being serious?


In a way, I am. Field is just as important to some countries and some programs as standard paper punching is. 

So the question I'd also ask is: why do they not shoot field? I've wondered why they don't dominate that as well. 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

They dont show up. 

They used to skip Nimes. The year they went 2015? Look at the podiums. Men took 1st, 2nd and 3rd in 2015. Brady took 4th.
Women took 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, and two 9ths. And they only sent a pro team, not the national team.

Indoor World cup? Look at Marrakesh. Then look at the podiums for any of the other indoor world cups when they show up. 

Olympics? They rank first in men and women in qualifying. Rio, swept all the golds. Outdoor world cups, consistently take home the most medals.

This is exactly what i mean when i say, how long is it going to take before people state the obvious. The Korean system is the superior system hands down for Olympic recurve.

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

If they won everything all the time, it would not be good for the sport. Since they dont care about field, they leave it so other can make some podiums.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

But Chris, every time someone points this out, the stock response is "but they have so many more to choose from..."


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> But Chris, every time someone points this out, the stock response is "but they have so many more to choose from..."


maybe they have more to choose from ( in a country the size of Kentucky with a population equal to New York and California,) because the system works better for more people across the board. 

Not to mention discussing how dominate NTS is at WA fields or 3D. 


Chris


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

My question is, is it the technique or the system for Korean Archers? My gut feeling is that if for some reason the Koreans decided to shoot an entirely unorthodox technique, within 4 or 5 years they would be right back at the top due to their coaching system and culture. A system that we cannot duplicate here in the U.S.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> The imphasis on HSS is they are here. In Irvine.
> 
> I love Coach Kim Hyung Tak and his method which is the Korean linear sysyem. His book is my archery bible. But his school is in Korea. Not that accessible for the average archer here. Of course i will recommend his schoool over and over. HSS is local compared to him. If i were in the east coast, i would recommend different coaches. But for west coast archers, its HSS.
> 
> ...


Chris, first let me apologize for an earlier post. My response was inappropriate and uncalled for. You are among a few who's posts I always read with great interest.

Let me ask you about the differences between Coach Kim and NTS. I don't have his book, but his You tube videos must be taken as accurately representing his method. I see so many similarities and few, if any exceptions. Pelvic thrust, tucked sternum, shoulder alignment, shoulder rotation. The list of similarities is long. 

The issue of linear draw vs angular is one that has used a lot of bandwidth on AT. Limbwalker once said that a linear draw has to have a broken wrist. Many folks point to Ms. Park, for example, and her broken, or cupped, wrist as an example of a linear draw. She cups her wrist and pulls straight back to her face. However, Coach Kim in this screen shot, clearly shows a flat wrist drawing to the side of his face.

In all seriousness...I see more NTS than "Korean linear".


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

I find it quite interesting that people here seem ignorant of, or unwilling to acknowledge, the tremendous fallout rate of program archers in Korea.

Develop target panic? You're gone. Don't want to follow the brutal training regimen? Gone. Don't want to give your life up for the slim chance to represent the country internationally? Buh-bye.

It's a successful program, but don't delude yourselves about the costs. And I don't mean KOR ₩.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> Chris, first let me apologize for an earlier post. My response was inappropriate and uncalled for. You are among a few who's posts I always read with great interest.
> 
> Let me ask you about the differences between Coach Kim and NTS. I don't have his book, but his You tube videos must be taken as accurately representing his method. I see so many similarities and few, if any exceptions. Pelvic thrust, tucked sternum, shoulder alignment, shoulder rotation. The list of similarities is long.
> 
> ...


I didnt take any offense to an earlier post. So no apology needed. 

His book is really good at showing and teaching his method. He has stated many times, that Park Sung Hyun had the perfect form, and exactly what he was teaching. 

In the Youtube videos you reference, Coach Kim is working with an archer who has form problems and he is doing specific things to teach him proper placement. 

I have a student who i sent to HSS for lessons after 2 years with me. His form was really nice when he got there, but he had some minor things with his alignment bow shoulder. Coach Seo specifically made him shoot with a bent front arm for about 2 months like a compound shooter. When he came back from the lessons and shot with me for the two months, i kept scratching my head. I was sure somehow he had misunderstood, as a firm straight bow arm is critical to the linear draw. But i left him to her instructions and continued her program with him. 

Two months later, he went back for a followup and sure enough she got his arm extended straight and his alignment is on point every time now. She got him to shoot bent arm first to get him to learn his shoulder placement. Once he learned that, she went back to the Korea form. In that instance, she used something a little unorthodox to get the right result. In the photo you show, Coach Kim has him doing a motion to teach his front arm alignment. Thats why he is holding his back and front shoulder. 

In the video photo you reference, its a little deceiving. If you watch the video here, you can see Coach Kim is leading him through a linear draw, not an angular one. especially at 1:14 and at 3:50. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPt7-XuslAw

You can also see it here in this video with Coach Hwang. She leads him through a linear draw. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4EGLYol_M


Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

>--gt--> said:


> I find it quite interesting that people here seem ignorant of, or unwilling to acknowledge, the tremendous fallout rate of program archers in Korea.
> 
> Develop target panic? You're gone. Don't want to follow the brutal training regimen? Gone. Don't want to give your life up for the slim chance to represent the country internationally? Buh-bye.
> 
> It's a successful program, but don't delude yourselves about the costs. And I don't mean KOR ₩.


Yes, i agree. I never said there wasnt a cost to the program or that their archery program didnt lose many along the way. You can say the same thing about Olympic programs in Eastern Europe where they were made to take steroids and drugs in the state sponsored programs and now have medical issues etc. 

But the form part of their system is a winner. In my opinion, NTS is not. 

And here in the USA, we lose just as many to target panic, jobs, kids, marriage, career etc. Fall out is fallout. 

I remember they banned 5 or 6 top archers some years ago and ended their careers because they refused to carry a boat up a mountain as a training exercise a few weeks before championships. 

And you should also state the benefits they get. win a world championships or gold medal. get a pension for life, get 100K to 350K. Get all your expenses paid, medical, etc. Hyejin Chang earned $350K for her two golds at Rio, plus a pension for life, and other awards. And thats just this year, she earned good last year too in the run up with Asian Champs, World Champs etc. 

Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

"In the video photo you reference, its a little deceiving. If you watch the video here, you can see Coach Kim is leading him through a linear draw, not an angular one. especially at 1:14 and at 3:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPt7-XuslAw

You can also see it here in this video with Coach Hwang. She leads him through a linear draw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4EGLYol_M


Chris"

Those were really good examples, much clearer. Every time I have tried that I end up with too much bicep engaged. A work in progress.

Thanks.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> Yes, i agree. I never said there wasnt a cost to the program or that their archery program didnt lose many along the way. You can say the same thing about Olympic programs in Eastern Europe where they were made to take steroids and drugs in the state sponsored programs and now have medical issues etc.
> 
> But the form part of their system is a winner. In my opinion, NTS is not.
> 
> ...


The money is why it works, if you can earn a lifetimes wages in a short carrer it becomes worth the sacrifice. 
We see it time and time again in other sports, it's not a case of more archers simply one of opportunity.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As the discussion is moved to how Koreans developed their system, better to remember few things:
1) Korea started the National Archery program in early 80's to prepare for Seoul 1988 Olympics, importing at first some US coach. May be someone knows who was. 
2) They got support from government and Chaebol conglomerates for sports more suitable to produce olympic medals, and the pro teams system started to exist.
3) Then, first archers become coaches, and started professionally to develop all aspects of archery, including shooting sequence. 
4) This generated different shooting styles, with some interestiong variations from 1986 to 1990, that were including the inner rotation of the front shoulder and the lean forward body position
5) periodically, all coaches from business teams, national teams and schools meet at national level to exchange experiences. All new findings that have common acceptance are then incorporated in their national training system, but each coach continues usually his way. 
5) In 1995, clearly their system has shown problems with women (no more Kim Soo Nyung..) . After World Championship in Jakarta,were they women shooting style was quite original, they changed women coaches and entire women team, getting back to a more traditional way of shooting for all of them, stil lasting today. Even Lee Eum Kyung was already converted to the traditional system when she won tha World Championships in 1999.
6) The entire Korean archery system is not interested to Indoor (if not as preparation to outdoor), or Field, and was not intersted to Compound target until it was admitted to Asian Games, that are just second to Olympic Games in their interest. So, they have started a a Compund pro system alaready generating some excellences.
7) Since W&W started making bows, they have sponsored participation of some archers to Nimes, males first. Chung Jae Hun, winning 2 times and participating 5 times, OH Kyo Moon participating one time, and some few others. Then, in recent years, LH women business team, going to Bangkok and Las Vegas too. And, last year, Hyunday team with Men and women appeared, too. As Nationa team, they only have one participation to world indoor championships by one of their business teams elevated to natinal team ranking for the occasion. 
As indoor world cup means much more for equipment promotion than target (Indoor world cup is an open circuit, outdoor is for antional teams only ..), in the recent years we have seen more and more Koreans in the indoor world cups, but as far as nationa team is concerned, no participation at all. Nointerst in it for both National Federation and Business 
8) Field may see in future some Korean direct participation because of need to promote equipments to that market too, but as at present only one existing important Field competiton is the World Championships and that is limited to national teams, this is blocking this to happen as business teams can't sent archers there.

Everything in above points is coming from my personal observations and infos collected around. Only Korean coach that clearly explained to me how things were working in Korea was Peter Suk during his early stay in Italy, around 1991. He was a former >1300 shooter and only time I have seen him shooting , he was using lean forward position and front shoulder inner rotation, that was common in those years in their national team. 

Today, Koreans still allow a lot of personalization in men's style, from Kim Woo Jin linear, to OH Jin Yek compound style, to Ku Bo Chan...slightly US style. But as far as women are concerned, they only use linear traditional style, average clearly more efficient for them.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Trying to defeat the Spartan army by aping their training, but not using Spartans.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

A lot of info there, good post Vittorio.

I hadn't realised the whole archery system in Korea came about as a deliberate attempt at improving olympic success. 
Just goes to show what proper dedication and full commitment to the long game can achieve as opposed to sweeping changes every 4 years.

It sounds like there initial plan was to train coaches through archery rather that trying to buy in quick success. 
I guess thats a benefit of not having to justify your budget every other year.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> Trying to defeat the Spartan army by aping their training, but not using Spartans.


Ya, one of the keys to their (Korean) success is children selection at very early stage to let only those with the right body and mind going on. Others are thrown from the Tarpeian Rock...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> Ya, one of the keys to their (Korean) success is children selection at very early stage to let only those with the right body and mind going on. Others are thrown from the Tarpeian Rock...


It only takes three.  Everyone needs to remember that, otherwise we should just give up now and spend our time, money and talents elsewhere.

3 out of 3000, or 3 out of 300 is still just three. If you don't want to believe that, just ask Butch, Rod and Justin.

We had 3 in 2012 but unfortunately they couldn't get along. I believe that cost them all a medal.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> Those were really good examples, much clearer. Every time I have tried that I end up with too much bicep engaged. A work in progress.
> 
> Thanks.


You are probably not starting with you bicep near your ear, and elbow high enough. 

You have to get the rear shoulder inline at the start. It should feel like you are pulling with your rear shoulder. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Having said that, the right head coach will get out ahead of the kinds of problems we've seen in the past, and who knows, might have put that team on the podium in London.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> It only takes three.  Everyone needs to remember that, otherwise we should just give up now and spend our time, money and talents elsewhere.
> 
> 3 out of 3000, or 3 out of 300 is still just three. If you don't want to believe that, just ask Butch, Rod and Justin.
> 
> We had 3 in 2012 but unfortunately they couldn't get along. I believe that cost them all a medal.


Considering what at at least one of your '04 teammates really thinks of you- on the record, stated in public- perhaps you better keep your trap shut about the London team.


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## Osiris155 (Jun 27, 2016)

Oh boy!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> Considering what at at least one of your '04 teammates really thinks of you- on the record, stated in public- perhaps you better keep your trap shut about the London team.


George, you and I both know the truth. I speaks to your character that you would suggest such a thing, esp. when the topic is our women's head coach. I am sure folks here are pretty sick of the personal attacks anyway. 

Here's the point... that we have had a problem in the women's program that a good head coach could have and should have taken care of years ago. And it predates Lee, so it's nothing new. A strong, professional head coach would have identified the problem and taken care of it before it got out of hand and affected the whole team. I think Sheri did a great job when she had the chance.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Vittorio said:


> Others are thrown from the Tarpeian Rock...


EXACTLY what I was referring to.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

>--gt--> said:


> Considering what at at least one of your '04 teammates really thinks of you- on the record, stated in public- perhaps you better keep your trap shut about the London team.


If you want to go there....

I dont believe anyone on the 2004 Olympic men's team was bullied out of the sport. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> If you want to go there....
> 
> I dont believe anyone on the 2004 Olympic men's team was bullied out of the sport.
> 
> ...


No, but it's not because hasn't spent 12 years trying. LOL. Must be very frustrating for someone in his "lofty" position, actually.

Forget about it Chris. A whole lot of people know why he's gone after me for the past 12 years. Believe me. Funny thing is that here on AT, I'll still be the one who gets blamed for stirring up trouble. LOL.

So, getting back to the topic at hand - many inside the sport know what a major roadblock has been on the women's side. It's not comfortable to talk about because it can easily sound very personal in nature. But that doesn't change the fact that it's been a problem - for quite a while - that wasn't really dealt with in an effective manner. And personally I don't think the problem is unique to archery at all. 

But as others have said, coaching women and coaching men are in many ways completely different skill sets. And managing interpersonal relationships is a strong skill that any women's head coach will need to have. Knowing how to build a team out of three individual archers will be a very critical part of the job.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Come to think of it, I revise my statement that it only takes 3. It only takes 3 if those three can get along and support one another. Otherwise, it might take 4 or 5. 

This is why I was so grateful to have Vic on my team in '04. World class archer and such a supportive teammate. I see the same kind of support among the US men in London and Rio and it really makes me happy for them. It has without a doubt been a huge key to their success, and it's just enjoyable to watch how well they all get along. I give Brady a lot of credit there for setting a great example.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Beastmaster said:


> Frankly, if a coach forces an archer to totally redo their form because that's all the coach knows, it's time to find another coach.


this would apply to every dream team camp, regional dream team camp, etc at the OTC for kids. 

They do not nurture any kids shooting a system other than NTS. If you shoot another system, you are expected to change and shoot what they teach you ( NTS). Completely idiotic as the kid has already shown a skill set to get there and be invited etc. 

Am i wrong??

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I realize i should state for people who are not familiar, 

Coach Kim Hyung Tak was the coach of Hyang Soon Seo at HSS who won the gold in 1984, and her was the Korean coach at the 84 Olympics. He also coached Kim Kyung Wook who won the gold in 1996. 

So basically HSS is an extension of Coach Kim Hyung Tak school and system.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> I realize i should state for people who are not familiar,
> 
> Coach Kim Hyung Tak was the coach of Hyang Soon Seo at HSS who won the gold in 1984, and her was the Korean coach at the 84 Olympics. He also coached Kim Kyung Wook who won the gold in 1996.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to know we have this option here in the US. I have been wanting to go learn from Coach Kim for years, but just cannot justify the expense.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Coach Kim Hyung Tak with Coach Hyang Soon Seo in a parade in 1984 celebrating her winning the gold medal. Photo from his book. Kim Kyung Wook is all over his book along with Park Sung Hyun and Maja Jager ( 2013 World Champ). 

View attachment 4932874


Matt Zumbo has gone to Korea several times and trained at Coach Kim Tak's school. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> Matt Zumbo has gone to Korea several times and trained at Coach Kim Tak's school.
> 
> Chris


Yea, I know, and I'm jealous. Too many interests, too little time and money...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> this would apply to every dream team camp, regional dream team camp, etc at the OTC for kids.
> 
> They do not nurture any kids shooting a system other than NTS. If you shoot another system, you are expected to change and shoot what they teach you ( NTS). Completely idiotic as the kid has already shown a skill set to get there and be invited etc.
> 
> ...


The observations I have seen and heard suggests that you are not wrong, Chris.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

What happens if a young archer (or any aged archer) trains with their individual coach (or is self coached for that matter), becomes good enough to place or win every national tournament, even is first in the Olympic trials so forth and so on.

Will they will be required to use the National Training Staff and revise any form to the NTS to compete internationally?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Matt Z said:


> What happens if a young archer (or any aged archer) trains with their individual coach (or is self coached for that matter), becomes good enough to place or win every national tournament, even is first in the Olympic trials so forth and so on.
> 
> Will they will be required to use the National Training Staff and revise any form to the NTS to compete internationally?


No, Katuna does not shoot NTS and she competes. However i have been told she trains on her own at the OTC. The rest that shoot NTS train together. I think back when Kisik Lee took over, Vic and Butch trained on their own too.

However i do not personally know. I have never trained at the OTC. But i do have a student and friend who should make RA this coming year. ( He is shooting 640 range at 70. He shoots the Korean style and trains now full time at HSS. If he does become an RA, he will not be switching to NTS. I also have a couple others that are aiming for the USA team, and they also will not be shooting NTS. 

I do not know if to become an RA, you mist shoot NTS. That may be a requirement. There is a difference in being an RA and being on the USA team and shooting to put yourself at the top of the rolling rank. 

it will be an interesting next few years in the run up to Tokyo. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, it certainly will.

If NTS is the only method taught by a given coach at the OTC, then I don't have a problem with that because all of us coaches have our preferred method. For instance, Lee has had success with young men at the OTC, so he should be allowed to continue teaching his method to the male RA's who want to learn it. Myself, Butch, Vic, Jason and a few others listened to what he had to say and tried to incorporate some of his teachings, but it didn't work out for us. Old dogs and new tricks, you might say. But requiring an RA to switch to any specific style in order to remain at the OTC is just silly. If they can shoot the scores, they should be able to train there. Why wouldn't a program want good competition in place?

I'd love to see another coach for the women at the OTC, who brings a proven set of credentials coaching women, regardless of what specific technique they teach. Lee and Guy have had their chance and it just didn't work out for a variety of reasons. That's coaching. It doesn't mean they are bad coaches, but maybe just not the right ones for that particular time. Look at Gary Kubiak in the NFL. He was ridden out of town (Houston) on a rail, and he turns around and takes Denver to a Superbowl win and looks like a genius. Same is true for his asst. coach Wade Phillips. Sometimes you gotta just find the right coach at the right time, for the right archers. 10 years is enough time. It didn't work out and it's time to move ahead in a new direction for our women. They deserve the best coach we can find for them and I look forward to seeing who that is and what they can do in the years to come.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Somewhere along the line sombody has "sold" a style to the powers that be.
To allow anybody not using said style is to admit it may not be the be all and end all.

How hard a sell is that style now?

The problem with allowing anybody scoring well in is that nobody but joe bloggs can claim credit or make money from joe bloggs turning up and shooting an unconventional style.
You can't walk into a funding meeting and propose that some archers will turn up and we'll do what we can for them.
Can i have hundreds of thousands of dollars please.

A plan needs to be put forward and carried out but even that, with some minor success may not be enough.
The plan must be protected and above all else never undermined by individuals excelling those within said plan.

Another example of how money actively prevents true sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

toj, I have no doubt some of that was true in the beginning, but I think this recent development is an admission that the current system hasn't been the answer for our women. That's a step in the right direction. Took long enough, but by now it's impossible to argue otherwise. So thankfully, someone somewhere said "enough is enough, let's make a change" and I commend them. 

Regarding "true sport" - the great thing about archery is that anyone is free to train wherever and with whomever they wish, and they can go shoot alongside full-time professionals and test their mettle. To me, that's still true sport. So while there are some biases and advantages at play, IMO they aren't enough to prevent a hard working individual with enough talent and drive from reaching the podium.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Let me try to bring this thread back to the original discussion.

Maybe it’s not only time to reset the women’s program but also time to reset the entire RA program. The tread has been focused on a same-same premise; hire a new coach and bring her/him to Chula Vista. All this might do is restart some of the same problems that have existed for a long time. Additionally, it would do nothing to help or advance the men’s program, (it's also not without it's problems). Yes, I’m talking about competition to the men’s program. Not competition between the archers, but competition between the programs. So why not look at other options? 

Option one:
Find the coach and bring the women to her/him. Yes, easier said than done. But it could do more than reset the women’s RA program. With some creative thinking, some funding, and a little luck, the program could in some way integrate with a large university. USAA could negotiate 70 meter space (maybe full time, maybe part time), with the university. The athletes could be housed nearby, required to be part time students (not matriculating), and, possibly become the non-competing core of the university’s Archery Club. Maybe they would travel periodically to Chula Vista. 

*Maybe the coach already lives near a major university, or maybe the coach would be more agreeable to moving to a university town as opposed to Chula Vista. 

Option two:
Allow for the “Independent RA”. Those individuals who, for whatever reasons would benefit more by committing to an independent training regimen than by moving to Chula Vista. USAA would support these athletes in all ways that they support the folks at Chula Vista except that these people would do most of their training at home or with a coach that is more attune the them. Again this is easier said than done and I realize that this would need to have some lengthy requirements drawn up.

So there's two options. Are they 'off the wall'? Some will say yes, some will say maybe. But it you do the same thing the same way all the time it's sometimes referred to as the definition of crazy.
Just my two cents.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i think i should stay silent on that. My post would ruffle a lot of feathers. And since i dont train at the OTC and have first hand knowledge, best i be quiet. 


Chris


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Not looking to ruffle feathers, or make waves. The restructuring of the high performance staff and hiring of new Women's head coach, along with the beginning of a new Olympic cycle, creates the opportunity to make changes. I think it's smart, but probably a little late to voice the possibilities.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

You are not ruffling any feathers. I would be the one doing that. 

And i agree with your options and thinking outside the box. 


Chris


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> The imphasis on HSS is they are here. In Irvine.
> 
> I love Coach Kim Hyung Tak and his method which is the Korean linear sysyem. His book is my archery bible. But his school is in Korea. Not that accessible for the average archer here. Of course i will recommend his schoool over and over. HSS is local compared to him. If i were in the east coast, i would recommend different coaches. But for west coast archers, its HSS.
> 
> ...


HSS means?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Hyang Soon Seo. HSS Sports Academy. 

http://www.hsssportsacademy.com

Sorry, sometimes i dont stop and think that not everyone is familar with what i am talking about. 



Chris


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

What do other sports do? And which other Olympic sport equates best with archery? For example, figure skating. Don't skaters each have their own coach? But then, there really isn't a team aspect to figure skating. Is archery more akin to gymnastics, with one head coach for the entire team? Swimming? Most swimmers have their own coach, right? But then the best individual swimmers come together briefly to form a 4-person team for the team events.
Just noodling with ideas.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

There is a film showing the Korean trials to pick the 3 archers to go to Rio that was released a couple months ago. The film starts with the top 16 men and women left in the trials. Interestingly in the film, each archer has their own coach in addition to the National Coach and assistant coaches. 

It is something to see on the field. 32 chairs near the shooting line with the archer sitting there, and right next to them in a chair is their personal coach. No archer shared a personal coach.

Its a great film though its in Korean. 

http://youtu.be/XAPCA59AaX0


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

This documentary is AWESOME!!!! Thanks for posting, Chris.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Is that Lee at 3:10?


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## Jalthi (Aug 14, 2016)

Wow, even with understanding only a bit of Korean this really is a great watch - thanks Chris.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

The film is called "Game of Numbers"

It was a tv show shown on KBS a few months back. I was lucky to get a copy. I had a showing for some of my JOAD team. They loved it too.
Then last month a friend sent me the youtube link. I dont know how long Youtube will leave it up. KBS is militant about its content. But its a great watch in the meantime. 

Gives you an idea how grueling it is to make the Korean Olympic team. I didnt post a thread here as i didnt know if there would be any interest as it is only in Korean.

I have a number of videos on the Korean National team, but they are in Korean or Chinese etc. I have one on the 2012 London team, the national training center, Kim Hyung Tak school , Chinese Taipei national team etc. I can be pmed more info.

None as long or as insightful as Game of Numbers though. 



Chris


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## Jalthi (Aug 14, 2016)

In a universe where something like this exists, I wonder how much simply changing a coach at the top of the pyramid can really fix things.

http://youtu.be/kxLHQe10k9k


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jalthi said:


> In a universe where something like this exists, I wonder how much simply changing a coach at the top of the pyramid can really fix things.
> 
> http://youtu.be/kxLHQe10k9k


Well, when all you have is one coach...

Look at the number of personal coaches with those athletes. And the amount and quality of experience among them.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Jalthi said:


> In a universe where something like this exists, I wonder how much simply changing a coach at the top of the pyramid can really fix things.
> 
> http://youtu.be/kxLHQe10k9k


Its at least a start. And i love Red Velvet and EXID. Two of my favorite Korean pop groups.

EXID acually shoot pretty good given the fact they only shoot about 5 times before that show airs each year. I wish we had something like that in the US. So good for the sport and making archery entertaining. The Cool kids on the Block show this year with the Korean National team was also very entertaining.

Chris


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

>--gt--> said:


> I find it quite interesting that people here seem ignorant of, or unwilling to acknowledge, the tremendous fallout rate of program archers in Korea.
> Develop target panic? You're gone. Don't want to follow the brutal training regimen? Gone. Don't want to give your life up for the slim chance to represent the country internationally? Buh-bye.
> 
> It's a successful program, but don't delude yourselves about the costs. And I don't mean KOR ₩.


Exactly the same with Wintersports in Europe - ski racing for example in Austria.
You pick a fringe sport, or you have historical background in this sport and a country will achieve gold medals in a row. 
You just have to be merciless in selection process...

BTW, *>--gt-->* got banned???
Seriously?


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Captain Kirk said:


> BTW, *>--gt-->* got banned???
> Seriously?


Probably a temp but hopefully not.

I'm sure any change on the women's side is welcome, for whatever reason whats working for the men isn't quite doing it for the women.

I just can't help but think that the candidate is already chosen with no salary range available. 
I mean it's kind of a big part of any job.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

toj said:


> Probably a temp but hopefully not.
> 
> I'm sure any change on the women's side is welcome, for whatever reason whats working for the men isn't quite doing it for the women.
> 
> ...



I can assure everyone, that a candidate has not been chosen. The position is open to all who feel they are qualified and to those in the U.S. and outside the U.S.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

toj said:


> I just can't help but think that the candidate is already chosen with no salary range available.
> I mean it's kind of a big part of any job.



That was my opinion from the start. For such an uprooting job position, i felt a posted salary range was almost a requirement. Particularly for a job that is NOT mainstream and would not have many salary examples in the work force to give you an idea of expected pay. 

We will see how many takers they get, and how many feel as i do. I personally wouldnt bother to apply with such information being withheld. But thats me. The very first question on my mind when i read the job offering was "what does it pay"? That job position is no easy task. 

I am willing to bet i was not the only one who wanted to know the pay first before applying.


I do hope they get someone good. 

Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> That was my opinion from the start. For such an uprooting job position, i felt a posted salary range was almost a requirement. Particularly for *a job that is NOT mainstream and would not have many salary examples* in the work force to give you an idea of expected pay.
> 
> We will see how many takers they get, and how many feel as i do. I personally wouldnt bother to apply with such information being withheld. But thats me. The very first question on my mind when i read the job offering was "what does it pay"? That job position is no easy task.
> 
> ...


We disagree on this because what you see (bolded) is exactly why a salary range is meaningless. Applicants should state their financial requirements and let the negotiations begin.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

It's also a risk
You could be back out of that job in short shrift if there's a policy or funding change and if you uprooted your life to take it...........


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Well, that is why there are four-year contracts after all.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> We disagree on this because what you see (bolded) is exactly why a salary range is meaningless. Applicants should state their financial requirements and let the negotiations begin.


perhaps, but this is where the USA Archery budget limits for the job would be important information. 

Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> BTW, *>--gt-->* got banned???
> Seriously?


Are you surprised that he got banned, or are you surprised at the reason behind the ban?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

chrstphr said:


> I remember they banned 5 or 6 top archers some years ago and ended their careers because they refused to carry a boat up a mountain as a training exercise a few weeks before championships.



http://www.cbc.ca/m/sports/south-korean-archers-banned-for-pulling-out-of-training-1.262663

Chris


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## Jalthi (Aug 14, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> http://www.cbc.ca/m/sports/south-korean-archers-banned-for-pulling-out-of-training-1.262663
> 
> Chris


It's all so wonderfully, amusingly brutal. I can just see the stadium stands full of young school children bussed in booing with gigantic smiles on their faces. :set1_applaud:

I appreciate that the powers-that-be had the backbone to kick those archers out. I had imagined they were told to carry some 300-lbs wooden monstrosity up a mountain, not a 160-lbs rubber boat. You almost have to ban a group like that - I'm certain if there was only one guy who wanted to drop out, peer pressure and social expectations would keep him pushing along. But buy-in from all 4 of them? If you plan on continuing grueling training like that in the future, gotta even remove the possibility of quitting from the equation. :whip2:


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> I have a student who i sent to HSS for lessons after 2 years with me. His form was really nice when he got there, but he had some minor things with his alignment bow shoulder. Coach Seo specifically made him shoot with a bent front arm for about 2 months like a compound shooter. When he came back from the lessons and shot with me for the two months, i kept scratching my head. I was sure somehow he had misunderstood, as a firm straight bow arm is critical to the linear draw. But i left him to her instructions and continued her program with him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mulled this part of your post for a few days and thought, hey let's give it a try. We've always had issues keeping Meghan's bow shoulder down, part of it is a strength issue and part of it is simply form (we're continually working on both). Had her try this for several days and have never seen her bow shoulder in as strong a position before. For some reason it's also made her get into her back more and straightened out a good bit of her alignment issues. -Pete


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I heard through the grapevine that Coach Lee offered the women's head coach job to Coach Kim at HSS who won the gold medal in Atlanta. Word is she turned it down, she didnt want to leave HSS. I did also get the pay offered for the job. I wont disclose it here since USA Archery hasnt made it public, they must not want it public. 

But it is what i expected it would be.

Coach Kim would have been a great choice if she had accepted. For the OTC, that at least is a step in the right direction.


Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> I heard through the grapevine that Coach Lee offered the women's head coach job to Coach Kim at HSS who won the gold medal in Atlanta. Word is she turned it down, she didnt want to leave HSS. I did also get the pay offered for the job. *I wont disclose it here since USA Archery hasnt made it public, they must not want it public.
> *
> But it is what i expected it would be.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> Coach Kim would have been a great choice if she had accepted. For the OTC, that at least is a step in the right direction.
> 
> 
> Chris


Agreed.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Cephas said:


> I mulled this part of your post for a few days and thought, hey let's give it a try. We've always had issues keeping Meghan's bow shoulder down, part of it is a strength issue and part of it is simply form (we're continually working on both). Had her try this for several days and have never seen her bow shoulder in as strong a position before. For some reason it's also made her get into her back more and straightened out a good bit of her alignment issues. -Pete


that is awesome. 


Chris


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Chris,

Looks like you have a fan!

Great 2 posts so far.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

bobnikon said:


> Chris,
> 
> Looks like you have a fan!
> 
> Great 2 posts so far.


Yes, he is a troll from Youtube. Seems he has nothing better to do than come after me.


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> Yes, he is a troll from Youtube. Seems he has nothing better to do than come after me.
> 
> 
> Chris


Chris, he seems grumpy. Maybe his mom's late bringing his Fruit *L*o*O*p*S* c*ER*eal down to his room in the basement


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I think i know who he is. Masaya Utsuta. At the OTC learning NTS and loving Lee. Said to hang out with Theo Cameron. 

Looking to bash me for whatever. 

Perhaps Theo said he doesnt like me calling him my student. I will find out from Theo directly. 


Chris


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## BrandonMReeves (Dec 27, 2016)

There are a few names who come to mind who are all currently in SoCal. Kim Kyung-Wook would be my first choice, as I've watched her the last several years with the kids she works with, some becoming extremely good archers, on the cusp of elite. She is also one of the nicest, most humble people you will ever meet, in spite of what her car's license plate may say. There is Khatuna Lorig, who is already traveling around the country offering coaching and seminars nationally. Then maybe Janet Dykman, 16th at the Atlanta games, who I believe runs the show for State Archers of California events in SoCal. Just my two cents on this.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Janet is also one of the nicest, most humble people you will ever meet. I consider myself fortunate to have been on a team with her. Always has nice things to say.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Janet is also one of the nicest, most humble people you will ever meet. I consider myself fortunate to have been on a team with her. Always has nice things to say.


I've been shooting with her since about 1972. Awesome lady.


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## ItsJim (Jul 29, 2016)

An amazingly interesting thread! I stumbled onto this about 2 days ago and think I've read every post from the beginning. And after these 3 years, do you guys mean "we" (meaning U.S.) still do not have a separate coach dedicated to the Women's Olympic team?


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

BrandonMReeves said:


> There are a few names who come to mind who are all currently in SoCal. Kim Kyung-Wook would be my first choice, as I've watched her the last several years with the kids she works with, some becoming extremely good archers, on the cusp of elite. She is also one of the nicest, most humble people you will ever meet, in spite of what her car's license plate may say. There is Khatuna Lorig, who is already traveling around the country offering coaching and seminars nationally. Then maybe Janet Dykman, 16th at the Atlanta games, who I believe runs the show for State Archers of California events in SoCal. Just my two cents on this.


What’s the thing with Ms Kim’s car license plate?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

ItsJim said:


> An amazingly interesting thread! I stumbled onto this about 2 days ago and think I've read every post from the beginning. And after these 3 years, do you guys mean "we" (meaning U.S.) still do not have a separate coach dedicated to the Women's Olympic team?


Google WOMEN'S HEAD COACH SONGI WOO . She was US coach for awhile, but it didn't work out (Among other things, dysfunctional politics prevented her from teaching the style and methods that had helped her success in previous archery stops (Great Britain, Mexico) and she was 'allowed to resign' in Fall 2019. Chris Webster now is the nominal women's coach, reporting to Coach Lee.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Google WOMEN'S HEAD COACH SONGI WOO . She was US coach for awhile, but it didn't work out (Among other things, dysfunctional politics prevented her from teaching the style and methods that had helped her success in previous archery stops (Great Britain, Mexico) and she was 'allowed to resign' in Fall 2019. Chris Webster now is the nominal women's coach, reporting to Coach Lee.


I would imagine Chris is taking the role that Guy had before Woo, and I wish him more success. Sometimes, different personalities can have different results even under the same structure due to little tweaks or new circumstances (different athletes). I wish him much success. Our women deserve it.


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## BrandonMReeves (Dec 27, 2016)

Sydneyphoenix said:


> What’s the thing with Ms Kim’s car license plate?











I love seeing her car at the range. You'd have to know our community nearby. The shocker around here is that it isn't bolted to a Lexus or Mercedes, as would be typical of the close-knit Korean community I live within. The fact that this piece of humble-brag is mounted to a minivan is awesome, because that's just the kind of person she is. Her family is very much the same, although her son may be the most outgoing and gregarious of the bunch, and has taken to challenging me to shootoffs now and then.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

BrandonMReeves said:


> The fact that this piece of humble-brag is mounted to a minivan is awesome, because that's just the kind of person she is. Her family is very much the same, although her son may be the most outgoing and gregarious of the bunch, and has taken to challenging me to shootoffs now and then.


Maybe that's the mindset required to earn "2 golds"  I say that because it reminds me of the kind of vehicle you might see DP driving around an archery event while he's busting his arse trying to help people.


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## BrandonMReeves (Dec 27, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Maybe that's the mindset required to earn "2 golds"  I say that because it reminds me of the kind of vehicle you might see DP driving around an archery event while he's busting his arse trying to help people.


Kind of my thoughts as well. She seems like a very practical type of person in general, so the minivan fits the needs of a coach who practices at multiple facilities in the area. Her whole family is great, to be honest. If I can find him the time, I want to have my son start working with her later this Summer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't know very many champion archers who aren't practical people actually. Getting to the top requires a lot of common sense and having priorities in the right place.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Does anybody know what credentials Chris Webster has for this position?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

NTS level IV and a Hoyt engineer. 🙂


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Does anybody know what credentials Chris Webster has for this position?


Mackenzie Brown likes him and wanted him in the position. 


Chris


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## Sydneyphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

BrandonMReeves said:


> View attachment 7091741
> 
> 
> I love seeing her car at the range. You'd have to know our community nearby. The shocker around here is that it isn't bolted to a Lexus or Mercedes, as would be typical of the close-knit Korean community I live within. The fact that this piece of humble-brag is mounted to a minivan is awesome, because that's just the kind of person she is. Her family is very much the same, although her son may be the most outgoing and gregarious of the bunch, and has taken to challenging me to shootoffs now and then.


Wow, that's one huge bragging right earned. As long as there's no other dual Atlanta Olympic Champion living in California (I suspect there may be), no mistaking the identity either. Wonder what her dynamics with Mr KS Lee when they were both in Korea, in regard to whether it will work.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> Mackenzie Brown likes him and wanted him in the position.
> 
> 
> Chris


Well, Chris is a pretty cool guy. And until we have more than one world class female archer training at the OTC, I suppose I'd listen to what she says too.


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