# Sandbaggers, Buddy systems, Unsportsman Conduct, at National events.



## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

I certainly hope that I'm just one of many who doesn't think any of the above has a place in any of the national events. I am not so naive to not recognize that there will always be those who cannot see anything wrong with doing anything it takes to win, but is winning so important that one has to resort to any of these tactics.
After following another thread, the last couple of days, I was so disappointed in many of the very members, who openly expressed their opinions, and then retracted some of thier thoughts, or changed their mind because they were confronted. They then seem to agree that if you can justify any of these by believing that having fun is more important than sandbagging, or maybe after years of experience, shooting with the beginners is justified, if you and your buddy can show them how good you are against them, when they choose not to compete with thier own peers. To me, the members who were dissatisfied ended up being a wimp, as a lot of people will be, just to try to be friends with the very one they were addressing. I know that there are those who will follow those who laugh and make fun of the reasons that the organizations have classes, and they will even agree that if it means having fun, or getting to shoot with your buddy, then it's acceptable.
This was, in my opinion, a very good example of why classes exist. It's an example of why so many people don't think buddies should shoot together at a national event where the group scores their targets. I feel that local events, are social events to get together with buddies and friends and share your love of shooting. I also feel that to so many, the national events are to compete against the best in your particular class of shooters.
I know that anything, including attending the national events, may become boring or one may not take it as serious after years of the same, and that a person may have the desire to laugh it all off as just a big joke, or even feel we should disregard the shooters in the lower classes. Also we may think that other shooters, and the organizations should let up, and disregard the classes and let friends shoot together, in order to have fun, joke, and visit.
I have never had any respect for anyone who wants to show off to those of lesser skills or ability, nor those who has to have a friend in their group of shooters.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think the other national organizations share the feeling that it's acceptable, as long as these individuals have fun, with no regard for other shooters.
Just my opinions, and they won't change, in order for another shooter to shoot with their friend, or for an experienced shooter to dominate the class designed for the beginners, just because they think it's fun.
My 2 cents....Claude


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## 3-d buster x4 (Feb 12, 2011)

i agree 100 % - well put Claude:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

:behindsof:moviecorn

I never get called a sandbagger!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Agree!!!! Good post!


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

they never call me a sandbagger but maybe a bottom feeder, but i dont care i know whats right and wrong, and you are not in the minority! I got called out on this site for trying to reinforce rules and the buddy system-but I do not care if something is going on and its wrong I will stand against it! I have no use for a cheater!


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

I also agree 100%, but until organizations accept the fact that this is an ongoing issue and step up to remedy the situation it's not going to get better. The day of pride in your accomplishments went wayside to the all about me mentality. I agree that local shoots should be your social events but National level shoots need to have broken groups, scheduled start times and move up regulations in place. Some wil argue that this will affect turnout but something needs to be done to bring parity to the sport. JMO


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

It is my understanding that the IBO does break up groups of friends to prevent them all shooting together....I have attended a few, and this was always the case from my experience.......Harperman


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## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

Welcome to 3-D archery!


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

On my way to sandbag....lol


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## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

I agree 100%!!!!! The only major IBO event I will ever shoot again is the "World Championship"..... That being said, I don't agree with the "have a good weekend and your "World Champion" thing!!!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Anyone know who gives lessons in sandbagging? Me and by DB's reply we need lessons. 

And what about those who get caught in the "trap" of sandbagging? Yeah, like "you're too good and we are moving you up." Yes, some states have rules in place that move up shooters that really aren't that good or don't make the X amount required on the national circuit to validate being moved up. It goes something like this; Win 2 or 3 Qualifiers in one year or win a state championship or win two state championships and you must move up (varies state to state). Well, excuse me. Beating 2 or 3 other shooters in your class makes you so good that you are required to move up? Fact; If you're moved up in state then you must be moved up on the national circuit.

Case in point; 3 shooters win state championships. One is not noticed (probably because there was only 3 in his class) and slips through the state rule. The other two have shot on the national circuit in their normal class and their best finishes are 27th and 30th place (fact, not made up). Because these two won state championships they are required to move up to the next class (fact, both these shooters had only 7 in class). This is fair? Are we so enraged over sandbaggers that we penalize those who really aren't?

So far results;
The shooter who won state champion remains hidden and I don't know how many more have been blessed.
Of the two who were moved up;
One shooter was brought back to his class through finding his finishes in local, state, and national level events.
One shooter has accepted the move up. (best national finish, 30th)


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## jmvaughn06 (Jan 10, 2009)

I agree with the above posts, but shouldn't we focus more on our own game and improving our shooting so we have nothing to worry about, sandbaggers or not. Think of some of the top pros do you think they sit around talking and complaining about sandbaggers and cheaters, I think that would just eat into their practice time.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Sonnythomas I agree with you. I would like for only how you perform and finish in Pro Ams determine how and when you are moved in class. Let the state and local organizations be just that until a more structured local and state system is established. I would like to see the ASA to sponsor a single club in each state that it has large number of shooters and provide targets advertising and money to keep the clubs the best they can be. Or state clubs could bid on holding their ASA state championship and get targets and advertising assistance from the ASA and depending on turnout the shoot could be moved.


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## Ft. Jefferson (Apr 11, 2011)

You can only sandbag if the system is setup for it. Do away with ability classes within a given equipment class. Learn to appreciate whatever place you end up in other than first. Why we have novice and pro and other classes escapes me. It sets up a system ripe for abuse. And so we get sandbaggers galore. Only natural if you ask me.


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## TOMMYY01 (Oct 21, 2003)

I like the part of disregarding shooters in the lower classes. Heck, that happens in some of our local shoots, where I'm at.:jam: But I don't give a flying crap, because I love archery. Sorry, I'm not a class winner by no means. Probably never will be. But I still have fun anyway!!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> :behindsof:moviecorn
> 
> I never get called a sandbagger!


Sandbagger.

(there, now you happy, DB? :wink


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

carlosii said:


> Sandbagger.
> 
> (there, now you happy, DB? :wink


Thats been a goal of mine to be good enough to be called a sandbagger! Thanks!
DB


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I must admit...I'VE BEEN CALLED A SANDBAGGER...........but not in archery, only golf. I won the sandbagger award at Hilltop Lakes, Tx in golf two years in a row. The award was given out at the ceremony at the end of the year to the one who won the most money during the year at the daily tournaments. I don't see the point in being a sandbagger in archery tho. How in the world do you do that and why?????


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

rembrandt said:


> I must admit...I'VE BEEN CALLED A SANDBAGGER...........but not in archery, only golf. I won the sandbagger award at Hilltop Lakes, Tx in golf two years in a row. The award was given out at the ceremony at the end of the year to the one who won the most money during the year at the daily tournaments. I don't see the point in being a sandbagger in archery tho. How in the world do you do that and why?????


I'm a sandbagger in golf too....but not because I'm winning. It's because I play out of the sand so often:darkbeer:

My thoughts on sandbagging in the IBO:

I just looked at the top 10 scores in HC. I then entered each of those names in the IBO Individual Results search. Guess what. only 2 of the top 10 would I consider novices/beginners or whatever. All of the others have already competed at the national level with this being at least their second year. Several have dropped down to this class from either AHC or MBO and one dropped from SPM. That is just in the top 10. If I dug deeper it would become obvious that this is not a beginner class. It is what it is.

My thoughts on shooting with buddies to have fun:

So what? Why can't guys travel to a National shoot and shoot to have fun and shoot together if they have no chance or interest in winning. Some of us just like to shoot and could care less about winning or even trying. But we also like to enjoy it with our buddies. 

The National shoots offer better courses and targets than most will ever find at a local shoot. To me it's no different than playing your local muni golf course then getting a group to go play Pebble Beach, Augusta(yeah right), Sawgrass, etc......It's a fun experience. Period. I don't play golf to win tournaments and I don't shoot archery to win either. I'm not good enough nor do I care to put in the time to be that good. My ego is just fine knowing I'm better in others areas of my life.

Now, if you want to exclude us from having fun, that's fine. But then what bragging rights will you have to finish in the top 10 out of 80 versus out of 200+:teeth: Not to mention the IBO memberships that won't be bought, entry fees that won't be spent and local hotels/restaurants that won't be patronized.

This sport is no different than any other. There is no way you can make everyone happy so there is no point in really trying. Those that enjoy the sport will take the good with the bad. Those that are in it for their self serving interests will take their toys and go elsewhere. 

But I will end by saying...those that consistently shoot up in HC, shame on you for not making yourself move up. Because to the 380 shooters you are really no different than a pro is to you. But I'll still go and have fun with zero stress. That's why it's call recreation:darkbeer:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Where does one go to get sandbagging lessons? Perhaps if I dropped a few points I wouldn't have been moved up to Super Senior. And poor ole Carlso, they moved him up to Senior Masters. (boy, probably catch .... for this)

On the local 3D circuits and even on the State events I've not run into sandbagging, that I know of. However, I did hear one person say he told his boy to drop a few points to keep from being moved up. Now, considering he was one the course somewhere and the eventual winner was on another part of the course, how do you determine how many points to drop and especially a kid?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I win some of my small local shoots but have never shot at a national shoot, I really want to go to metropolis and do my first shoot there and see how I stand up. I have been debating what class to shoot in when I go and I am leaning to open c just because I am 41 yrs old and I don't want to waste 2 or 3 years in lower classes and also If I have a really good day like I do some times where everything is clicking I might just win the dang thing.

My point is if I show up and have a awesome day and win open a or open b there would be regret that I didn't shoot open c. Plus what if i shot open b and had a awesome day and a sandbagger beat me, that would suck.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Padgett said:


> I win some of my small local shoots but have never shot at a national shoot, I really want to go to metropolis and do my first shoot there and see how I stand up. I have been debating what class to shoot in when I go and I am leaning to open c just because I am 41 yrs old and I don't want to waste 2 or 3 years in lower classes and also If I have a really good day like I do some times where everything is clicking I might just win the dang thing.
> 
> My point is if I show up and have a awesome day and win open a or open b there would be regret that I didn't shoot open c. Plus what if i shot open b and had a awesome day and a sandbagger beat me, that would suck.


Metropolis is a blast win, lose or draw. Been going for years. Be there agin this year. City shoot the week before awesome and money to win
DB


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## PHSJason (Jun 3, 2007)

This is a double post from the 'Got me thinking' thread, but applies here as well (I don't know how many people follow all the threads on here.....):

"One of the issues is that these problems pervade local as well as national events. Habits like line-pushing, group score-inflation, range discussion, etc begin with the local tournaments and find their way up the food chain to the larger events. If a guy shoots in a group locally and they fudge lines, talk yardages etc, and they move up to a state tournament, these behaviors go with them. They score well (notice I didn't say shoot) at these larger events and then move up to the national events and once again, they take these behaviors with them. All the while, there may be new shooters being added to their groups who are now 'learning' this behavior.

It is not about the money. I have seen people fudge scores to win a cheap ribbon and all the bragging rights that go with it. It's about winning, losing, and ethics.

Winners win by playing by the rules. Losers bring home prizes by any means.

We need to look at the smaller events and break these habits at a local level. We need to help new shooters to appreciate the sportsmanship in our sport.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Lots of folks now doing the Rhinehart tournaments. Some just feel they dont have a chance even in the lesser classes with the qaulity of shooters. I dont know an easy class on ASA Pro am level. Im sure it true in IBO as well.

Tournament directors are in it to make money. 
DB


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## jmvaughn06 (Jan 10, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Lots of folks now doing the Rhinehart tournaments. Some just feel they dont have a chance even in the lesser classes with the qaulity of shooters. I dont know an easy class on ASA Pro am level. Im sure it true in IBO as well.
> 
> Tournament directors are in it to make money.
> DB


Exactly, improve your skills (not refering to you DB) enough to where you don't have to worry about sandbagging and so on. If you want to be the best the have to shoot the best, and you can't do that by sitting around complaining about what the next guy is doing. In these individulized sports their is only on person you have to beat and that is yourself. I feel bad for range owners as they can't go out with every group and make sure the rules are being followed every second, take your morals and skill with you to the course every shoot and just have fun.


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## PHSJason (Jun 3, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> Tournament directors are in it to make money.
> DB


Daniel,

Please don't lump me into that stereotype. While it is true that tournaments bring money in for the club, all of that money goes back into the sport. Money comes in and pays for targets, insurance, course fees, fliers, building maintenance, trophies etc. At the end of the year, we break even and board members like me do all of this for free. If there is left over, it gets spent on upgraded targets, water jugs, or other things that improve the quality of our shoots.

In the end, I am only interested in the experience that people have at our events. I subscribe the belief that if they have fun, they will come back and that is how clubs and events continue over the years.

And I do know that profit is a driving force for some of these guys, but not all of us!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jmvaughn06 said:


> Exactly, improve your skills (not refering to you DB) enough to where you don't have to worry about sandbagging and so on. If you want to be the best the have to shoot the best, and you can't do that by sitting around complaining about what the next guy is doing. In these individulized sports their is only on person you have to beat and that is yourself. I feel bad for range owners as they can't go out with every group and make sure the rules are being followed every second, take your morals and skill with you to the course every shoot and just have fun.


True, very few in there life will ever win a major event at a Pro am. Been trying for years and I never have, close a few times. Keep it fun and understand its not easy. Local clubs seems if you group shooters the turnout often lower than trickle. I know guys who wont shoot with anyone but there buddies. I always liked shooting and meeting others. I understand it hard for club owners and directors to keep everyone happy which actually wont ever happen. Had a dad complaighn at the last shoot because his son had to shoot against a kid that hits the national events and had the best equipment. Like the kid should be in a class of his own. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

PHSJason said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Please don't lump me into that stereotype. While it is true that tournaments bring money in for the club, all of that money goes back into the sport. Money comes in and pays for targets, insurance, course fees, fliers, building maintenance, trophies etc. At the end of the year, we break even and board members like me do all of this for free. If there is left over, it gets spent on upgraded targets, water jugs, or other things that improve the quality of our shoots.
> 
> ...


Im talking on pro am level. Most clubs are non profit like my club. Sometimes this can be a good thing. We got a grant because were on City property to build a indoor range. Even non profit clubs got to make a buck or two. Insurance and targets and electric got to be paid.
DB


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Everybody wants to be a winner nowadays. :secret:

You could do what ever you wanted if they just put a range official on every target. lain:


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

Well heres my two cents worth on the topic. as far as the sandbaggers and cheaters go you will never stop them, they will find a way to do what they do. as far as the classes go I feel that fewer is better. I remember back in the day you had only 3 compound amateur classes in IBO you had release, open and fingers. The beginner class is ok but you should only be eligible for 1 season in that class then moved up. So in IBO you should have maybe 5 classes Novice, AHC, MBR, MBF, MBO. I also feel that the top 10 from EACH shoot should be forced up to the next class each year except for Fingers and MBR classes. Same for ASA except make only 1 open class. not 3 so you would have novice, hunter, unlimited, limited, and open same as above top ten from each shoot moved up again except for Limited and Unlimited. I also feel once you're bumped out you cant come back. the reason for the the top ten from each shoot move is you have guys who may not shoot all the shoots to be at the top ten at end of the year but still shoot lights out when they do shoot. the top several guys shoot in the 420's at an ASA shoot? those guys should be shooting semi or above. again thats just my two cents. people may not agree with it but thats my thoughts.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> Everybody wants to be a winner nowadays. :secret:
> 
> You could do what ever you wanted if they just put a range official on every target. lain:


Totally agree. I like winning! I dont like losing, one would think I would be use to it by now!
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

archeryshooter3 said:


> Well heres my two cents worth on the topic. as far as the sandbaggers and cheaters go you will never stop them, they will find a way to do what they do. as far as the classes go I feel that fewer is better. I remember back in the day you had only 3 compound amateur classes in IBO you had release, open and fingers. The beginner class is ok but you should only be eligible for 1 season in that class then moved up. So in IBO you should have maybe 5 classes Novice, AHC, MBR, MBF, MBO. I also feel that the top 10 from EACH shoot should be forced up to the next class each year except for Fingers and MBR classes. Same for ASA except make only 1 open class. not 3 so you would have novice, hunter, unlimited, limited, and open same as above top ten from each shoot moved up again except for Limited and Unlimited. I also feel once you're bumped out you cant come back. the reason for the the top ten from each shoot move is you have guys who may not shoot all the shoots to be at the top ten at end of the year but still shoot lights out when they do shoot. the top several guys shoot in the 420's at an ASA shoot? those guys should be shooting semi or above. again thats just my two cents. people may not agree with it but thats my thoughts.


You realize if this was to happen the over all numbers would go down and tournaments wouldnt happen. Got to have the numbers cost to put on a major pro am is high.
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Harperman said:


> It is my understanding that the IBO does break up groups of friends to prevent them all shooting together....I have attended a few, and this was always the case from my experience.......Harperman





ahcnc said:


> I agree 100%!!!!! The only major IBO event I will ever shoot again is the "World Championship"..... That being said, I don't agree with the "have a good weekend and your "World Champion" thing!!!!


I went to my first IBO World shoot last year. If you don't think buddies are shooting together and being VERY generous calling arrows at the IBO "world championship" you are sadly mistaken! At least it happened in AHC. A buddy of mine confided Saturday evening that he was "bummed" because he had "rolled over" for his group. He said he saw MANY arrows called 10's and 11's that were more than an 1/8th inch beyond even having to look at it closely. In my group a guy called his own arrow "out" on about the 3rd target even though the "caller" had called it "in". The shooter simply refused to write down the bogus call. There was some muttering for a few minutes but from then on all arrows were called correctly and everyone relaxed. I have shot a few ASA tournaments and have never encountered a problem with the guys in my group or heard any buddies comment negatively. I think because the IBO let's buddies shoot together at all tournaments everyone gets used to the wide strike zone and so don't think twice about it. I'm hoping I get "grouped" with some cheaters this year at IBO World's.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I went to my first IBO World shoot last year. If you don't think buddies are shooting together and being VERY generous calling arrows at the IBO "world championship" you are sadly mistaken! At least it happened in AHC. A buddy of mine confided Saturday evening that he was "bummed" because he had "rolled over" for his group. He said he saw MANY arrows called 10's and 11's that were more than an 1/8th inch beyond even having to look at it closely. In my group a guy called his own arrow "out" on about the 3rd target even though the "caller" had called it "in". The shooter simply refused to write down the bogus call. There was some muttering for a few minutes but from then on all arrows were called correctly and everyone relaxed. I have shot a few ASA tournaments and have never encountered a problem with the guys in my group or heard any buddies comment negatively. I think because the IBO let's buddies shoot together at all tournaments everyone gets used to the wide strike zone and so don't think twice about it. I'm hoping I get "grouped" with some cheaters this year at IBO World's.


I just cant understand letting buddies shoot together on a national level shoot, I wish they wouldnt on a local level. So hard to comprehend in so many ways. Shotgun starts and bust the groups works for me.
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> I just cant understand letting buddies shoot together on a national level shoot, I wish they wouldnt on a local level. So hard to comprehend in so many ways. Shotgun starts and bust the groups works for me.
> DB


I have suspicion that 2 of the guys in the group I'm referring to may have been related!


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

I do have to say that if buddies get grouped together at IBO Worlds it is luck of the draw. You send in your registration and payment and they assign you times, not the IBO's fault on that one. What they do need however is range officials on course to pop up and check a groups scoring at random targets or pull out a stop watch while the group shoots. I have talked to way too many people that don't want to be THAT guy who calls a fowl on their group and then suffer through the rest of the shoot with hostiles. Guarantee that will take the fun out of your weekend...


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Show up, pay your money, stand at the stake, shoot your bow, hit the target, mark the score - although the whole national scene and experience is a big to do. Its no different than your back yard 3D course.

You can only effect the outcome of you, not anyone in your group or around you. Your score it what it is - shoot your best, walk off with your head high and let the placings land where they may. Few are going to get rich off this sport so no sense making it more than what it is - a fun challenge.


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## onebadmutt (Feb 12, 2007)

I tell ya what, I need a nicer group of people to shoot with must be. I shoot with 2 other guys all the time, one of them being my brother, and man you can`t get away with anything. None of that "sure it looks like its in there" with this group, shoot, they(we) will get down on a knee and try to make sure its out so they dont get the points. For us it`s not about trophies and money hell you can go buy a trophy and money is printed everyday, it`s bragging rights we are affter. I need a nicer group to shoot with must be.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

onebadmutt said:


> ... they(we) will get down on a knee and try to make sure its out so they dont get the points. ...


Aint no other way, IMO.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I was put on the same stake as my son in augusta, went to the asa trailor to tell them they need to move us, so at shoot time i told a range official and they moved us


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

as far as everybody wants to win sure we all do but some just cant and thats the way it is like it or not, I try to set goals for myself and try to better myself, if i can control myself then i am doing well, cant control the competition!


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

hrtlnd164 said:


> I do have to say that if buddies get grouped together at IBO Worlds it is luck of the draw. You send in your registration and payment and they assign you times, not the IBO's fault on that one. What they do need however is range officials on course to pop up and check a groups scoring at random targets or pull out a stop watch while the group shoots. I have talked to way too many people that don't want to be THAT guy who calls a fowl on their group and then suffer through the rest of the shoot with hostiles. Guarantee that will take the fun out of your weekend...


Luck of the draw??? Try this when sending in your IBO World's registration. If you want to shoot with a friend mail it in together. If your in the same class you'll get the same course and times. Saw it last year when the IBO showed everyones shoot times on their website. A couple brother combos were paired same course same time ( same last names only reason I noticed it). I think Holiday Valley puts you into shoot groups as the entries come in, not the IBO. I thought the World's was about as honest as you can get until I saw this last year, lots of other folks saw it too.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Luck of the draw??? Try this when sending in your IBO World's registration. If you want to shoot with a friend mail it in together. If your in the same class you'll get the same course and times. Saw it last year when the IBO showed everyones shoot times on their website. A couple brother combos were paired same course same time ( same last names only reason I noticed it). I think Holiday Valley puts you into shoot groups as the entries come in, not the IBO. I thought the World's was about as honest as you can get until I saw this last year, lots of other folks saw it too.


 I didn't realize that, thought it was about as fair as it gets. Learn something new every day...


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

One thing I like about the IBO World's is I get to meet 3 new guys every year. I've gone 3 years now and every year I've had quality people to shoot with in my group. Bunch of great guys shooting these events for the most part. Never had any issue's at any of the NTC shoots either, so it's not all bad.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

garceau said:


> show up, pay your money, stand at the stake, shoot your bow, hit the target, mark the score - although the whole national scene and experience is a big to do. Its no different than your back yard 3d course.
> 
> You can only effect the outcome of you, not anyone in your group or around you. Your score it what it is - shoot your best, walk off with your head high and let the placings land where they may. Few are going to get rich off this sport so no sense making it more than what it is - a fun challenge.


x2!


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## blazenarrow (Feb 6, 2009)

They let buddies shoot together both days in Yankton this year.. Also 85 per of amatures shoot 2 scores on day one. When I wanted to they said no! I would turn my score card in to late and then be DQ. I then asked how come your not going to DQ your 2 two man teams you have out there. They said they know its wrong but turned there head. I think there should be indeed broken groups and shot gun starts for both days. I wasn't very happy at yankton this year about what was going on at all. Every shooter should have to shoot under the exact comditions and with different groups. jmop


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Since this is only my second season of being involved in competition archery, and have only participated in only a couple of local IBO events, I hope someone can tell if I'm reading the rules correctly. I am of the impression that the spefications for the different classes are part of the rules. After reading so many post on another thread referring to experienced shooters, stepping down and registering in the class that the IBO specifies that it is for beginners, so many are saying they are not breaking any rules. Is the part of the specifications that explains that a class is a beginners class not part of the rules, or can a shooter choose their own class at random and still be within the rules? Thanks in advance if you can clear this up for me.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Dr.Dorite said:


> Since this is only my second season of being involved in competition archery, and have only participated in only a couple of local IBO events, I hope someone can tell if I'm reading the rules correctly. I am of the impression that the spefications for the different classes are part of the rules. After reading so many post on another thread referring to experienced shooters, stepping down and registering in the class that the IBO specifies that it is for beginners, so many are saying they are not breaking any rules. Is the part of the specifications that explains that a class is a beginners class not part of the rules, or can a shooter choose their own class at random and still be within the rules? Thanks in advance if you can clear this up for me.


 Sad part is the bottomline the organization has to make these rulings. We can sit and talk all we want untill someone with IBO steps up and enforces these classes it going to happen. 
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Luck of the draw??? Try this when sending in your IBO World's registration. If you want to shoot with a friend mail it in together. If your in the same class you'll get the same course and times. Saw it last year when the IBO showed everyones shoot times on their website. A couple brother combos were paired same course same time ( same last names only reason I noticed it). I think Holiday Valley puts you into shoot groups as the entries come in, not the IBO. I thought the World's was about as honest as you can get until I saw this last year, lots of other folks saw it too.


BINGO! :wink: Do a little more sniffing around and you _might _find cousins or brother-in-laws or folks that live within a stone throw of each other or maybe even a combination!!


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

I thought it looked pretty clear in the ASA rules, like in bow novice once you win about $300 in that class you are moved up. That would be one 1st place finish and your gone.


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

i guess i may be in the minority in these discussions but here is my take on it. if you are so serious about the competiton at these shoots put your money in the semi-pro or pro classes and pony up and shoot to beat the best. if not then do what 99% of the rest of us are doing come shoot your bow for the fun that it is. i think ASA and IBO both have way too many classes as it is. for example the IBO has 3 recurve classes. They have 3 pins classes. the ASA has 3 open classes and 3 pin classes. i think both orgs could take a page out of the NFAA with their championship classes and the rest are flighted. now they have a bunch of classes too so i am not leaving them out either lol. it has always been in archery the i cant win so make me a class i can over the years. we get wrapped up in calling this one a sandbagger that one a cheater and so on and so on. the IBO does do their best to bust groups by putting strangers in with friends. i have seen it and saw them ask people if they were together. there has been cheating at the ASA as well i could go on and on. so lets not forget what the majority of us like to do and that is come shoot our bow and have fun and if we shoot a big score and win thats just a bonus.


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

ky hammer said:


> i guess i may be in the minority in these discussions but here is my take on it. if you are so serious about the competiton at these shoots put your money in the semi-pro or pro classes and pony up and shoot to beat the best. if not then do what 99% of the rest of us are doing come shoot your bow for the fun that it is. i think ASA and IBO both have way too many classes as it is. for example the IBO has 3 recurve classes. They have 3 pins classes. the ASA has 3 open classes and 3 pin classes. i think both orgs could take a page out of the NFAA with their championship classes and the rest are flighted. now they have a bunch of classes too so i am not leaving them out either lol. it has always been in archery the i cant win so make me a class i can over the years. we get wrapped up in calling this one a sandbagger that one a cheater and so on and so on. the IBO does do their best to bust groups by putting strangers in with friends. i have seen it and saw them ask people if they were together. there has been cheating at the ASA as well i could go on and on. so lets not forget what the majority of us like to do and that is come shoot our bow and have fun and if we shoot a big score and win thats just a bonus.


 I'll go along with that!
I shot some IBO's with buddies and freinds and they never had to pull us off the podieum for a first place finnish (or 2nd or 3rd for that matter LOL) we shoot to be competetive but there is no cheating!!!!!!!!
Just serious fun!!!!!!!!


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

ky hammer said:


> i guess i may be in the minority in these discussions but here is my take on it. if you are so serious about the competiton at these shoots put your money in the semi-pro or pro classes and pony up and shoot to beat the best. if not then do what 99% of the rest of us are doing come shoot your bow for the fun that it is. i think ASA and IBO both have way too many classes as it is. for example the IBO has 3 recurve classes. They have 3 pins classes. the ASA has 3 open classes and 3 pin classes. i think both orgs could take a page out of the NFAA with their championship classes and the rest are flighted. now they have a bunch of classes too so i am not leaving them out either lol. it has always been in archery the i cant win so make me a class i can over the years. we get wrapped up in calling this one a sandbagger that one a cheater and so on and so on. the IBO does do their best to bust groups by putting strangers in with friends. i have seen it and saw them ask people if they were together. there has been cheating at the ASA as well i could go on and on. so lets not forget what the majority of us like to do and that is come shoot our bow and have fun and if we shoot a big score and win thats just a bonus.


Thanks Hammer for the reply to this thread, especially since you are a representative for IBO, but I am still not for sure if you mean that the description of the HC class is included as part of the rules and if you are not a beginner, that you are not abiding by the rules if you register and shoot in the HC class. Also is it the policy of IBO to suggest that one should not voice their opinion, but just show up, put down your money, and enjoy shooting, even if they feel that maybe the rules are being ignored.
I would think that rather than accepting any possible deviation from the rules by shooters, or by those cunducting the event, that those representing IBO would not suggest that people should not question the possible violations, but just accept it and not say anything about it. My question was simply, Is it part of the IBO rules that HC is only for beginning archers?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

ky hammer said:


> i guess i may be in the minority in these discussions but here is my take on it. if you are so serious about the competiton at these shoots put your money in the semi-pro or pro classes and pony up and shoot to beat the best. if not then do what 99% of the rest of us are doing come shoot your bow for the fun that it is. i think ASA and IBO both have way too many classes as it is. for example the IBO has 3 recurve classes. They have 3 pins classes. the ASA has 3 open classes and 3 pin classes. i think both orgs could take a page out of the NFAA with their championship classes and the rest are flighted. now they have a bunch of classes too so i am not leaving them out either lol. it has always been in archery the i cant win so make me a class i can over the years. we get wrapped up in calling this one a sandbagger that one a cheater and so on and so on. the IBO does do their best to bust groups by putting strangers in with friends. i have seen it and saw them ask people if they were together. there has been cheating at the ASA as well i could go on and on. so lets not forget what the majority of us like to do and that is come shoot our bow and have fun and if we shoot a big score and win thats just a bonus.


You dont think the IBO rules should be followed? You feel thar entry level classes should allow anyone?
DB


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Everybody wants to be a winner nowadays. :secret:
> 
> You could do what ever you wanted if they just put a range official on every target. lain:


I feel like I am a winner......maybe I don't take home a pin or a trophy but I try hard and at my age, just being out there and competing makes me feel like I've won............and if I make a few friends in the process......then I'm a big winner!


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

you misunderstod my intent or maybe i didnt put it clearly lol. one should never break the rules. one of the rules in ibo is that if you know that your group is not busted then you should say something when they assign you a group.its classified under unsportsman like behavior. Tony Ooten has been a very good shot for a long time and he has advanced beyond that class certainly. that class is for entry level archers. now how do we get folks out of there that dont belong? well thats a very tough question to answer. it should be self policing but obviously it doesnt work that way. i think our org has way too many classes and rules and i feel the asa which i have been a member of for a very long time my number is 3550 lol is also in the same boat. i think as a whole we are all caught up too much in the winning and losing of the whole deal. if you are dedicated to it and want to compete at the highest level then put your money in the pro or semi pro class and have at it. on saturday and sunday both in bedford i drew out with ladies shooting in the FHC class. none of them were at the top of the class but i can assure you that nobody had any more fun than we did. i shot as miserable as i have in a national shoot but had about as much fun as i can remember. i like to win as much as anybody and have had success on the national level before but i have met a lot of great folks and had more fun than just winning and losing. when you are shooting in the amatuer classes it is a hobby plain and simple. if you are in those classes and are there for the money then you are barking up the wrong tree. there are folks that are shooting in those classes that can compete in the higher ones no doubt and i am sure they are there testing the waters to see how well they do. its like golf they are competeing againt the course and themselves. i have heard in another thread that the ibo shoots were referred to big back yard shoots. well you know that aint a bad thing imo at times.


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## Ms.Sapphire (Dec 15, 2004)

ky hammer said:


> on saturday and sunday both in bedford i drew out with ladies shooting in the FHC class. none of them were at the top of the class but i can assure you that nobody had any more fun than we did. i shot as miserable as i have in a national shoot but had about as much fun as i can remember. .


Us ladies are always fun! 

It's all (most) of you guys who act like debbie downers all the time! :wink:


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

Rikki you always are fun to hang with girl!


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## Ms.Sapphire (Dec 15, 2004)

I didn't know you were a state rep....

I knew you had a rep that followed you around though....lol


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

I think the spm class in Ibo is the biggest sandbagging class I've ever saw... their is no moveout amount that kicks you too open pro. I actually heard a guy say he has no intent too ever go pro again, cause he could make more money in the spm class. I don't know about everyone else but its my intent too make it too the pro level and try my best too compete.. if you win over $2000 and 2 top 10s In the asa you are bumped up too the pro class.. but even if you win out of semipro in asa as long as you don't show up and shoot a pro event in the asa your still allowed too shoot spm in Ibo the following year??? Makes very little sense too me but who am I too say anything? Some of these guys should be forced too the pro ranks by the Ibo.. just my 2 cents worth...


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Sentinalonfire said:


> I think the spm class in Ibo is the biggest sandbagging class I've ever saw... their is no moveout amount that kicks you too open pro. I actually heard a guy say he has no intent too ever go pro again, cause he could make more money in the spm class. I don't know about everyone else but its my intent too make it too the pro level and try my best too compete.. if you win over $2000 and 2 top 10s In the asa you are bumped up too the pro class.. but even if you win out of semipro in asa as long as you don't show up and shoot a pro event in the asa your still allowed too shoot spm in Ibo the following year??? Makes very little sense too me but who am I too say anything? Some of these guys should be forced too the pro ranks by the Ibo.. just my 2 cents worth...


and a well 2 cents said, too many dont care about doing the right thing, if they cant be in the upper end of the class they shoot in they want to drop back! well why do we go and spend $$$$$ to drop back and sandbag, not me while i might be a bottom feeder right now i simply dont care i go to try to improve, to improve you must compete against people who are better than you at some point along the way!


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

Very true mr gary...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Sentinalonfire said:


> I think the spm class in Ibo is the biggest sandbagging class I've ever saw... their is no moveout amount that kicks you too open pro. I actually heard a guy say he has no intent too ever go pro again, cause he could make more money in the spm class. I don't know about everyone else but its my intent too make it too the pro level and try my best too compete.. if you win over $2000 and 2 top 10s In the asa you are bumped up too the pro class.. but even if you win out of semipro in asa as long as you don't show up and shoot a pro event in the asa your still allowed too shoot spm in Ibo the following year??? Makes very little sense too me but who am I too say anything? Some of these guys should be forced too the pro ranks by the Ibo.. just my 2 cents worth...


Some may never be able to afford the move to Pro class. Traveling and paying those entry fees does get expensive real quickly. ASA does allow someone to move back to the semi pro class. Just like many sports I have seen when you get so good you have to move pro or don't play. Many just drop out of the sport. Seen it in Bowling, rodeo and archery. Pro hardly has any where to shoot locally, only so many pros state wide in archery. Kinda of a double edged sword. Especially for the working class who may just shoot a few shoots a year.
DB


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Some may never be able to afford the move to Pro class. Traveling and paying those entry fees does get expensive real quickly. ASA does allow someone to move back to the semi pro class. Just like many sports I have seen when you get so good you have to move pro or don't play. Many just drop out of the sport. Seen it in Bowling, rodeo and archery. Pro hardly has any where to shoot locally, only so many pros state wide in archery. Kinda of a double edged sword. Especially for the working class who may just shoot a few shoots a year.
> DB


Yep. The move to Pro can hurt and can make some one just up and quit. Heck, just being moved up to Semi Pro can put the pressure on. What is it for Semi Pro, $140 entry fee? Try that about 6 or 7 times in one year. Dropping $800 to $900 just for entry fees and not win once? Ouch.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

while i understand what DB and sonny are saying, matt is talking about people who will not move due to the money they can make by sandbagging, the move to pro is tough no doubt and some dont make it long


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I never liked the idea of forcing someone to shoot a pro class. I don't win, but if I did I couldn't afford to shoot even semi-pro except for maybe on tournament a year. Since I haven't shot one in about 6 years I'm pretty safe.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

One idea would be for each organization have the sponsors pay the prize money in the pro class and have no entry fee in the Pro Class! But the catch would be you would have to earn your way in and perform at a certain level to stay Pro or you would be moved back to semi! I think it would be more interesting watching a Point System as the year progresses and see who is on the bubble and what semi pro guys would be moved up. What you think?


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

cenochs said:


> One idea would be for each organization have the sponsors pay the prize money in the pro class and have no entry fee in the Pro Class! But the catch would be you would have to earn your way in and perform at a certain level to stay Pro or you would be moved back to semi! I think it would be more interesting watching a Point System as the year progresses and see who is on the bubble and what semi pro guys would be moved up. What you think?


I only know a little bit of how it's ran but the PBR (professional bull riders) has a similar setup to what you're talking about. Once the guys make the BFT level, they don't pay entry fees at these evens and get an appearance fee to cover travel and rooms but they have to attend every BFT event (unless they're injured or get excused) and stay in the top 40 in the world to keep qualifying for these events. If they drop out of the top 40, they're back to the smaller events where they pay an entry fee and their own expenses but can earn their way up to the BFT level again (the top level guys can also attend the smaller events to help keep their standing up and to make more money). Most of the higher level guys also have sponsors who basically pay them to wear their logos when competing but they're responsible for going out and finding their own sponsors be it the gas station up the street or Stanley tools, the only thing is that the sponsorships can't conflict with the organizations sponsors (can't wear a Dodge logo when competing in a Built Ford Tough event LOL).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3Dblackncamo said:


> while i understand what DB and sonny are saying, matt is talking about people who will not move due to the money they can make by sandbagging, the move to pro is tough no doubt and some dont make it long


So I'm a little dense. What all terrific amount of money is there in Sandbagging? You can only win so much and then what? Same scenario, different outlook; Guy shows up at a shoot, sees who's in class, sees so and so who can put the hammer on him and then he leaves - either going to another shoot or holding off until so and so isn't there. Sandbagging or Cherry Picking or You didn't shoot so you didn't get beat, same difference. Heck, we have this at local club events. I guess 2nd place is a disgrace. 

When motorcyle racing years back it was nothing to see a top pro racing at the otherwise state event. Okay, a time lapse between national events or whatever. When this happened it was called "cherry picking." Okay, some what easy money.


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

well if a man knows his limitations should he be forced to move up and donate to Levi?


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Does it not seem logical that once a person has placed consistantly, and won a certain amount in any class, that they have proven they have the ability to be competitive in the next class? Moving up would not only be fair to those you have been placing above in your class, but give you the opportunity to move up to more winnings. Its not like you won't have a chance at reclaiming some of your money, it's just that you will have to compete with those who have done what you should do, and not hope for an easy win, by staying in a class below your ability. Usually the money is better anyway, to move up.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

If you want to compete in the Pro Ams or National Triple Crown then YES you should be forced to move in class. These are the main events of our sport and the mentality of the 3D world is they are just big get togethers this is one reason the sponsors will have a hard time sponsoring these large events and anyone outside of the sport taking it seriously. The mentality needs to change for these events. We need more uniform structure for a secure and better future.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I don't think most folks really "cheat" for the money. There isn't that much money involved. There have been folks caught cheating that have a lot of money. I think people in archery or most any amateur sport "sandbag" or cheat mostly for their personal ego, to have a feeling people "admire" them or simply so they can feel like a "winner". Why else do people cheat at trivial crap or say it's the bows fault when they screw up? Almost every week I read in the paper about a super wealthy person doing something illegal. It has to be driven by greed for power or to feel like a "winner".

I know how to guarantee an extra $1,000 in my pocket Monday morning after a weekend tournament. Simply don't go. I began shooting the Lancaster Classic and paying the $150 entry fee for no other reason than to challenge myself but I also knew I could "compete". I enjoy competing when I'm competitive with my peers. I'd love to win. I train to win. But I also knew when I began competing at 43 I wouldn't ever be real competitive at the highest level. I've wanted to pop a couple of guys in the nose because of cheating. Not because they cheated and beat me but rather because they ruined the challenge and fun of competing. It's no fun to practice hard, spend a lot of money and 20 hours driving to have some twit known for saying "close enough" walk by as you pull into the parking lot.

That's the beauty of indoor spot shooting. It's about impossible to cheat unless a lot of people get involved but I have seen it done! I've also seen Open Pro's shoot BHFS at Vegas. But they didn't win.


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## owl (May 28, 2004)

Perhaps it's all about money. Personally, I enjoy shooting with people who are better with similar equipment than I am. That, of course assumes that archers help archers. I enjoy learning from them. If I can help a novice shoot better in a tournament (within the rules of course) then I will do so. It seems like the bulk of money given out is contingency. Wouldn't it be great to find a range with accessible paths, good backstops, etc, and see a plaque "Improvements on this range were paid for by ***strings in honor of ***** winning here using our equipment on ***date", or something similar. Or having a shooting seminar paid for by a sponsor in lieu of giving out contingency money. Maybe there would be fewer pros shooting, or maybe our sport would grow more. Most of us do this for the love of the sport. If payouts are damaging the sport, perhaps we need to rethink them.


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

Kent buddy you hit the nail on the head. i dont think its about the money at all but about being able to boast and say look at me and what i did.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I shoot archery for the love of the game just like I play golf! The one thing that needs changed is the mind set of our national events . Change would be hard at first but it would be accecpted and allow the sport to grow with more prestige, but until we will still see these same threads once a year with no changes.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

well at local levels not many pros are supporting the local ranges, not around here, I see people who will not move up because they know they can win in a lower class, well how do you ever expect to get better if you want compete against shooters who are better than you, its like kstigall said look at what i done. well i have no respect for someone who will not move up just to win a trophy or a check that want buy your gas home. I like the way asa does if you win you move up or go home. Archery needs something not sure what! I know of a local who started shooting asa in open b, won out in no time, moved to a and won out in 1 yr, moved to semi and won out in a yr, went to pro, guess what some of the pros that that he could not shoot with them so they talked a little trash to him, he has 7 or 8 kids his wife dont work and he paid his own way with very little help, he now has had to quit due to $$$$, but I have more respect for him than some who are at every event and he can compete with them, he never felt comfertable in the pro class, when all the time he was a pro who earned everything he got, hope to see him back soon! sandbaggers will not move unless they are forced at asa, on the local events the will never move up just because they can win a lower class, they even research where they can and cant win!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Of course you have to keep things in prospective. I don't know about IBO all that much, but in the ASA you have different levels with the same archery equipment and different levels in the same class with more bells and whistles. Where the confusion comes in is there is no explanation in writing. Two examples I think I have correct;
Okay, road to the Pro level; Open C (novice), Open B, Open A, Semi Pro and Pro. (Here, I can't buy requiring Open A to advance to Semi Pro.) Okay, Open A would be Top Amateur. Going to Semi Pro or Pro would be something else.
Bow Novice (learning stage); Bow Novice, then in different directions - Open and it's route. To Hunter to Men's unlimited (topped out). Known 45 - no restriction. Known 50 - restriction.

Maybe some confusion here too. Like many I started in the NFAA. I began as Bow Hunter Free Style and this a start and stay in class forever if you so desire. I switched to Adult Male Free Style, another class you can remain in forever if you so desire. And there are other classes the same way. And with all this age is not a factor unless you want it to be. Age 55 you're considered a Senior. Well, I've shot Adult Free Style at clubs for years and still do from time to time. I usually ask how many there is in Senior and if none; Put me in Adult. I don't have a problem with shooting with the younger set and it saves the club from sticking up another class.


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

ky hammer said:


> well if a man knows his limitations should he be forced to move up and donate to Levi?


 Limitations are non-existant if one puts in the time and effort that levi does... sandbagging is sandbagging...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Sentinalonfire said:


> Limitations are non-existant if one puts in the time and effort that levi does... sandbagging is sandbagging...


That is absolutely not true. 

You can only know your limitations when you push your limits. I could spend every waking moment working on my "game" and never be nearly as good as Levi at 3D. I would definitely be much better than I am but there are limitations. I could have practiced 24/7 my entire youth and I would never have played middle backer for the Steelers. To honestly believe otherwise is to not know one's self.


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