# Barebow vs. olympic



## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

Any olympic riser can be used as a barebow riser, provided it is able to fit through a 122mm ring, unstrung. That lets out the Tec risers. Most serious barebow shooters do prefer a somewhat heavier riser and tend to gravitate toward those with the ability to take extra weights.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The best BB risers also have their centerpoint lower in the grip, which improves balance and lets you tune with less negative tiller. Good example would be the Bernardinis.

-Grant


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

grantmac said:


> The best BB risers also have their centerpoint lower in the grip, which improves balance and lets you tune with less negative tiller. Good example would be the Bernardinis.
> 
> -Grant


Grant,

Can you expand on this a bit. Are you stating that barebow shooters use negative tiller? I have noticed differences in my Nilo versus my Best and other risers. My sight points are better at longer distances. The center point of the grip could be a factor.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Grant points out an interesting feature of some risers that gets overlooked by various manufacturers. The affect of grip position on tiller can be very important to a barebow shooter. To some archers, it's not an issue. I think it's personal preference. However, my preference is to have the grip lower in the riser than is fashionable today. The BEST Zenit and Hoyt Axis share this feature. Most risers of newer design have moved the grip closer to the plunger hole however.

John


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Grant,
> 
> Can you expand on this a bit. Are you stating that barebow shooters use negative tiller? I have noticed differences in my Nilo versus my Best and other risers. My sight points are better at longer distances. The center point of the grip could be a factor.


It has been my somewhat limited experience between stringwalking a normal ILF target riser and now onto my Nilo that the Nilo doesn't require as much (or any) negative tiller. Sid had a good post about center-point and how it relates to balance, especially post-shot reaction.

-Grant


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## beerbudget (Feb 5, 2011)

Gentlemen, all this talk about grip positions and pos/neg tiller has got me intriqued. My question is how do I test to see which of those is optimum for me? Suppose I make some adjustments to my tiller; positive, negative, zero, or what have you .... Then, how do I test these settings? Specifically, what do I shoot at? What distance? What am I looking to see to determine if it's the best setting for me? Thanks for the enlightenment.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

First thing I'd recommend is to simply adjust your tiller to zero, then + 1/4 then - 1/4 and see what the difference is to you both on the target, and in feel. Through some trial and error, you'll draw some conclusions pretty quickly yourself.


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I think Vittorio has spoken to this but worth repeating. Alot of limbs have a built in positive tiller, hence the labeling top and bottom limb. I have reversed my limbs to take the tiller and reverse it without adjusting the riser further. Gar.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good point. And very easy to do.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Grant points out an interesting feature of some risers that gets overlooked by various manufacturers. The affect of grip position on tiller can be very important to a barebow shooter. To some archers, it's not an issue. I think it's personal preference. However, my preference is to have the grip lower in the riser than is fashionable today. The BEST Zenit and Hoyt Axis share this feature. Most risers of newer design have moved the grip closer to the plunger hole however.
> 
> John


I believe the Nilo/Luxor move your hand's pressure-point to slightly above the center of the riser, I haven't measured the plunger height however. I think this makes them react with a forward jump instead of backward tip. I shoot my Nilo with little on-board weight due to some shoulder pain I was experiencing, its still jumps straight.

-Grant


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

pilotmill said:


> I think Vittorio has spoken to this but worth repeating. Alot of limbs have a built in positive tiller, hence the labeling top and bottom limb. I have reversed my limbs to take the tiller and reverse it without adjusting the riser further. Gar.


If you're shooting barebow, can you run into problems reversing the limbs? Thinking that many limbs have markings on the "archer" side of the bottom limb. Reverse this and put it on top, and you've got markings on the limb that could make you "illegal" for barebow? (well for FITA anyway....)

Edit: My bad - the rule is

"9.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers, and trademarks located on the inside 
of the upper and lower limb are permitted. "


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

one stipulation we had when we partenered up with best for the zenit. Called the Talisman if you turned the badge over on some of the original badges. we sold into europe, while Best dealt with Italy, but it was that the grip position sat a fraction higher within the riser.
The riser naturally balances better since there is more below the grip then above. this balance is not the weight addition feature, more a natural balance feature.

When discussing this a while back,i did a little video for tradtalk, pointing out its really easy to check. really easy to measure.

Its been part of our Geometry since the 1970's as far as i know.
but its fundamental to the Black Douglas series of takedown bows.


here is how to check it.
http://s1097.photobucket.com/albums/g343/Borderbows/?action=view&current=20110426161856.mp4

all you need is a bow string as shown.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Sid, on that clip you measure the length of each riser along the line of the pockets but in locating the 'mid-point' place the string up along the line of the riser, pivoting on the lower limb pocket.

Does this not give a slightly lower mid-point than otherwise?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Greysides said:


> Sid, on that clip you measure the length of each riser along the line of the pockets but in locating the 'mid-point' place the string up along the line of the riser, pivoting on the lower limb pocket.
> 
> Does this not give a slightly lower mid-point than otherwise?


i suppose it would, but i was trying to illistrate something. rather than be 100 factual.
all measurements would be relative to each other, and it still shows that not all grips are in an equal position withint the riser.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Fair enough.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

grantmac said:


> The best BB risers also have their centerpoint lower in the grip, which improves balance and lets you tune with less negative tiller. Good example would be the Bernardinis.
> 
> -Grant


I do not agree with this statement as a point of fact. I thought that would be the case. It makes sense that it would, but in my real world tests I did not find that to be the case. I have owned two Luxors and shot them extensively. Very nice risers but I found the Spig 650 with a very traditional geometry (albeit heavily weighted in the lower area) worked better for me. This was proved to me by scores not just feel.

Regarding tiller; I played with tiller a bit last year trying varying amounts of zero positive and negative tiller with my Spigarelli 650 (low part of grip in center). Negative tiller consistently held better and scored higher (for me). I found 1/16” more negative tiller worked better when string walking. Currently I am set up for traditional NFAA class so I am not string walking and tiller is set 1/16” negative

I shoot a low grip and so different grip preferences might vary the results some.

YMMV


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

SBills said:


> I do not agree with this statement as a point of fact. I thought that would be the case. It makes sense that it would, but in my real world tests I did not find that to be the case. I have owned two Luxors and shot them extensively. Very nice risers but I found the Spig 650 with a very traditional geometry (albeit heavily weighted in the lower area) worked better for me. This was proved to me by scores not just feel.
> 
> Regarding tiller; I played with tiller a bit last year trying varying amounts of zero positive and negative tiller with my Spigarelli 650 (low part of grip in center). Negative tiller consistently held better and scored higher (for me). I found 1/16” more negative tiller worked better when string walking. Currently I am set up for traditional NFAA class so I am not string walking and tiller is set 1/16” negative
> 
> ...


the negative/positive tiller thing still confuses me cant seem to get it into my head. string to limb gap being smallest on which limb?

how do you pressure the grip? are you pushing high inthe the throat, nutral, or do you like to heal the grip?


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## beerbudget (Feb 5, 2011)

I believe Positive tiller means the string gap on the upper limb is greater than the string gap on the lower limb.




Borderbows said:


> the negative/positive tiller thing still confuses me cant seem to get it into my head. string to limb gap being smallest on which limb?


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Borderbows said:


> the negative/positive tiller thing still confuses me cant seem to get it into my head. string to limb gap being smallest on which limb?
> 
> how do you pressure the grip? are you pushing high inthe the throat, nutral, or do you like to heal the grip?


Sid I shoot a low grip and low hand position so in effect I am heeling the bow. Probably why the zero to negative tiller (lower limb measurement larger) has always worked better for me as I am working the lower limb a tad more when against the nock and even more so when string walking for a closer yardage.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

SBills said:


> Sid I shoot a low grip and low hand position so in effect I am heeling the bow. Probably why the zero to negative tiller (lower limb measurement larger) has always worked better for me as I am working the lower limb a tad more when against the nock and even more so when string walking for a closer yardage.


yeah, healing a low grip double compounds the fun.
For example the DAS (to get a long window, i think) has the grip low in the bow, so the centre line is above the deepest part of the grip. This means that for conventional tiller to work, you would need to push right up in the throat. anything less will benefit you in closer to 0 tiller. dropping to a low grip allows you to add more pressure lower onto the grip, meaning even less tiller required.
makes sence.
choosing a riser with a grip higher in the riser, should mean you can keep a comfortable (to you) low grip and use a closer to Zero tiller. rather than inverted tiller... the inverted tiller means your Nocking point path would be non-conventional. Changing tiller moves the NP, and also the dynamic NP position.
if your shooting 3 under, then again, another reason for a lower tiller.
Also based on your own personal finger lengths hand thickness etc...
but you should need less weight, if the grip is higher. since the will be more % of the riser below the pivot point. Stabiliser change this as they add mass forward, and low on the riser. pulling tiller and vertical balance about the place.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Borderbows said:


> yeah, healing a low grip double compounds the fun.
> For example the DAS (to get a long window, i think) has the grip low in the bow, so the centre line is above the deepest part of the grip. This means that for conventional tiller to work, you would need to push right up in the throat. anything less will benefit you in closer to 0 tiller. dropping to a low grip allows you to add more pressure lower onto the grip, meaning even less tiller required.
> makes sence.
> choosing a riser with a grip higher in the riser, should mean you can keep a comfortable (to you) low grip and use a closer to Zero tiller. rather than inverted tiller... the inverted tiller means your Nocking point path would be non-conventional. Changing tiller moves the NP, and also the dynamic NP position.
> ...


I have a DAS and agree with that statement exactly.

Also one of the reasons I went to a Luxor at one time was my hypothesis that even when string walking my hand and grip position within the bow would be nearly completely in line and balanced. The bow did balance well to my tastes and did have a good junp straight forward. It just was always a tad “touchier” feeling and my scores with the Spig were better.

As a point of clarification grips (Loesch lows) and arrows were the same on these bows but limbs were different as the Luxor used medium limbs to achieve the 70” bow I favor while the Spig used longs. All limbs combinations have been high end W&W.

Just my observations and experience on this. Only Sith’s deal in absolutes:wink: so I will not state that what I am doing is best because as soon as I do some guy shooting a positive tillered Luxor will wipe the floor with me.

Also this is barebow shooting only. Adding stabilizers into the mix adds a whole other variable to this equation.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

SBills said:


> I have a DAS and agree with that statement exactly.
> 
> Also one of the reasons I went to a Luxor at one time was my hypothesis that even when string walking my hand and grip position within the bow would be nearly completely in line and balanced. The bow did balance well to my tastes and did have a good junp straight forward. It just was always a tad “touchier” feeling and my scores with the Spig were better.
> 
> ...


im not a sith.... i do understand a few causes and effects. whither they are better for you as a person is a different matter, as confidnece in what your doing is king! the rest just needs repeatability.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I shoot a higher grip for BB, my tillers always seem to end-up neutral or slight positive. Otherwise it takes a rediculously high NP to get decent flight.

-Grant


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I shoot a higher grip for BB, my tillers always seem to end-up neutral or slight positive. Otherwise it takes a rediculously high NP to get decent flight.
> 
> -Grant


that makes sence...

there is one complication.

the bow will have a tendancy to kick backwards (top limb) if the grip is low. this is compounded by the deflex riser mass. (back from the pivot point, and biased to the top of the bow)
to avoid this you need more mass below the grip. weights that cost extra...

you can shot the bow well all ways, but to shooting contra-convention requires more steps to rebalance the ill balance made by the low grip, and you save pennies in not having to buy weights!.

ILF has given everyone the ability to detune, then retune years of experience. it all works, but some seem more simple.

our risers run the centreline low in the throat. and this gives a nice balance, nutral shot reaction, and conventional downward np path for simple tuning.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> that makes sence...
> 
> there is one complication.
> 
> ...


Sid.........How soon will the machined aluminum Barebow riser be on the market???...or have You put that project on the back burner for now???....Harperman


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Harperman said:


> Sid.........How soon will the machined aluminum Barebow riser be on the market???...or have You put that project on the back burner for now???....Harperman


We are currently doing FEA work with Edinburgh Uni on this one.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Well I started this and then you all got way over my head. I just shoot in the back yard and maybe some 3d. I have a Hoyt Excel and was thinking of upgrading hence my question. Saw some of the risers marked barebow and asked. I don't even know what barebow competition is. What do you think would be best for my kind of shooting? The barebow risers or the olympic?


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

I would opt for a "barebow" riser. I am assuming you are shooting your current riser without sites?


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

I use a simple pin sight sometimes. Mostly no sight


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

What 3D org do you shoot with?

-Grant


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Personally I would keep shooting what you have until you reach a point where you see no improvement in your shooting. By then you will have decided if you want to stay with Oly style shooting or move to actual barebow. If you decide on barebow then jump to a riser designed for it. No problem in keeping with the Oly style riser, but serious competitive shooter will opt for a riser designed for it.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

ozzypop said:


> . I have a Hoyt Excel and was thinking of upgrading hence my question. Saw some of the risers marked barebow and asked. I don't even know what barebow competition is. What do you think would be best for my kind of shooting? The barebow risers or the olympic?


..

I agree with ArtV. The Excel is a good riser. I'd stick with it for now. Stick a weight on the front to get the same kind of balance (lower down) if it feels better (won't cost very much).


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks guys. I might check on the weight.


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