# Hoyt New Recurve



## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

It'll be a formula bow. It'll be powder coated. It'll be over $800. It won't go back to shim alignment.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I predict It won’t be in my choices for a new bow.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Engineers gotta engineer stuff.


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## maxpowerpc2000 (Apr 5, 2010)

I want the Tech-Bar back. 🙂🙏


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

FerrumVeritas said:


> It'll be a formula bow. It'll be powder coated. It'll be over $800. It won't go back to shim alignment.


Agree, but it will be Cerakoted.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Bob Furman said:


> Agree, but it will be Cerakoted.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


That's just a brand name for a type of powder coating.


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## godwinmt (Nov 25, 2012)

New Hoyt Formula XD Riser











And Hoyt Axia ILF or Formula Limbs


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Doesn’t look weight forward like they went all in with the last few years


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Limb graphics look generic


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

If those limbs were a nascar they would be slow…really generic labeling


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I take it back…I could actually see myself shooting this riser…but with the integra maple core…gimmicky limb designs just don’t do it for me. I have been upset by all the newest trends…syntactic foam cores were not for me…bamboo velos not for me…win win flax… uh no…uukha full carbon and glue another no…and resin core seems like a attempt to get uukha like…without the same design. But these are just my opinion. Others feel free to disagree.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I don’t think it’s a resin core. I think it’s a wood or bamboo core infused with resin to reduce the natural residual moisture content. At least based on a conversation I overheard Doug having about why some Velos delaminated at outdoor events.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Look at the side profile of the limb layup? Looks completely different than wood core laminations…looks like one big wood colored foam lam. Or proprietary resin …


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I’ll stick with maple cores is all I’m saying


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## BuzzMA (Jan 11, 2010)

It will come in a 27" version.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

It’s a nicer looking bow than the last one, which is cool.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I don’t see where it says it will be available in a 27”


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

It looks like a prodigy from a few years back


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## maxpowerpc2000 (Apr 5, 2010)

Very disappointed. Nothing new except a lower grip for more sight window...which can be fixed by getting rid of the formula system.....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This is going back to (I believe) a Samick design from the early to mid 2000's. I'm pretty sure they had a riser with similar geometry and with dampers in the limb pockets.

Eventually Hoyt will just produce the Mathews/SKY TR-7 and be done with it. LOL


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## BuzzMA (Jan 11, 2010)

stick monkey said:


> I don’t see where it says it will be available in a 27”


"Post your want"


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> This is going back to (I believe) a Samick design from the early to mid 2000's. I'm pretty sure they had a riser with similar geometry and with dampers in the limb pockets.
> 
> Eventually Hoyt will just produce the Mathews/SKY TR-7 and be done with it. LOL


It’s already got the Mathews dampener…just a different location


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> This is going back to (I believe) a Samick design from the early to mid 2000's. I'm pretty sure they had a riser with similar geometry and with dampers in the limb pockets.
> 
> Eventually Hoyt will just produce the Mathews/SKY TR-7 and be done with it. LOL


Don’t tease me like that. If I could find a LH TR-7, I’d own it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

stick monkey said:


> It’s already got the Mathews dampener…just a different location


Meh. Not gonna be as effective in that location or without a weight like the Mathews damper. I'm sure it does help a little though. Cutting out that recess and adding a $4 damper was a cheap and easy marketing decision I'd say. Certainly nothing new however. 

What I don't get is how people will pay Hoyt $800 for a riser that is basically a 20 year Samick. It's their money I guess.


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## MrPillow (Apr 9, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Meh. Not gonna be as effective in that location or without a weight like the Mathews damper. I'm sure it does help a little though. Cutting out that recess and adding a $4 damper was a cheap and easy marketing decision I'd say. Certainly nothing new however.
> 
> What I don't get is how people will pay Hoyt $800 for a riser that is basically a 20 year Samick. It's their money I guess.


Buying a new top of the line riser when it comes out every few years is still a hell of a lot cheaper than many other hobbies we might be avoiding 😁


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

MrPillow said:


> Buying a new top of the line riser when it comes out every few years is still a hell of a lot cheaper than many other hobbies we might be avoiding 😁


And a lot more expensive than other hobbies. But like I said, it's their money. 

Nothing this riser will do that a 20 year old Samick can't.


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

edit


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## josh_gml (Jun 21, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> This is going back to (I believe) a Samick design from the early to mid 2000's. I'm pretty sure they had a riser with similar geometry and with dampers in the limb pockets.
> 
> Eventually Hoyt will just produce the Mathews/SKY TR-7 and be done with it. LOL


Something like this?









Shot a competition with it just this past weekend. Guess i'm onto something.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

josh_gml said:


> Something like this?
> View attachment 7680405
> 
> 
> Shot a competition with it just this past weekend. Guess i'm onto something.


Yes. I was about to ask if anyone could help me remember what riser it was. I think there was another one that had a solid damper, but I can't recall which one.


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

I'm thinking a Samick Ultra....it won lots of matches


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Bob Furman said:


> Agree, but it will be Cerakoted.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Why won't they make them shiny anodized ? Not interested in the finish at all


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Yes anodized is a step up in my opinion…they have done away with it along their whole range of compound and recurves to my knowledge


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

josh_gml said:


> Something like this?
> View attachment 7680405
> 
> 
> Shot a competition with it just this past weekend. Guess i'm onto something.


Which bow was it? I was thinking it was the Xenotech but couldn’t remember


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## EHartkopf (Aug 7, 2017)

Now I'm wondering if I could make a similar rubber insert for an Xceed, and whether or not it would make any difference.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

I have a feeling the only meaningful thing that changes between all these risers is which riser cutout pattern you like the most, lol.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rylando said:


> I have a feeling the only meaningful thing that changes between all these risers is which riser cutout pattern you like the most, lol.


There is only so much one can do with a chunk of metal whose sole purpose is to hold two limbs in position.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

It looks like a prodigy with different cutouts and a bunch of stuff to come loose in the pockets


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Regarding the dampener in the limb pockets, if you have a GMX or Epik, you can make your own. These small limbsavers fits perfectly in the cutout in the limb pockets of both risers:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

stick monkey said:


> It looks like a prodigy with different cutouts and a bunch of stuff to come loose in the pockets


What are you thinking will "come loose?" A lot of risers (most probably) have that same alignment system, unless I'm missing something.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

All the extra bolts with the pivot point shims and some new brass dovetail tensioner. Anything that’s bolted in there has the chance of coming loose


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Eh, they’ve been in place for at least the last generation. They’ve been solid on the Xceed


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## godwinmt (Nov 25, 2012)

starchaser said:


> Why won't they make them shiny anodized ? Not interested in the finish at all


I think it's an availability driven decision more than anything. Huge unreasonable lead times at most anodizers state side at the moment closer to a year than months. We've been having similar issues on a much larger scale than Hoyt.


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## josh_gml (Jun 21, 2019)

stick monkey said:


> Which bow was it? I was thinking it was the Xenotech but couldn’t remember


Its the OG Samick Master. My one looks just like one would back in 2004.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> Meh. Not gonna be as effective in that location or without a weight like the Mathews damper. I'm sure it does help a little though. Cutting out that recess and adding a $4 damper was a cheap and easy marketing decision I'd say. Certainly nothing new however.
> 
> What I don't get is how people will pay Hoyt $800 for a riser that is basically a 20 year Samick. It's their money I guess.


It's funny how many different ways manufacturers try to reinvent the stick with a string on it. It's pretty amazing. I'd love to see a time-lapse video of, say, every Hoyt riser from the first Earl Hoyt one to today. I bet that'd be a lot of fun to watch...

lee.


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

Hey John, Didn't the Axis also have a lower grip? I seem to remember something about that.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Cuthbert said:


> Hey John, Didn't the Axis also have a lower grip? I seem to remember something about that.


Yes. The grip placement on the Axis was lower than on many other risers. I shot the Axis for a while and only when I changed risers did I realize the benefits (to me) of this slightly lower grip position. What I found is that it helped me keep my bow shoulder low and in position. When I switched from the Axis to the PSE X-Factor, it took me a while to understand why it never "felt" right or why I couldn't score as well with the PSE. But one day I figured it out - the PSE had the grip position very close to the rest/plunger. I went from the X-factor to the BEST Zenit, with a lower grip position, and immediately started shooting my typical scores again. Weird how such a small change in position made such a big difference to me, but it did.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)




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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Do you think they are copying mk?
Or has mk just been trying to copy the gmx for years? And formula too for that matter


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

stick monkey said:


> Do you think they are copying mk?
> Or has mk just been trying to copy the gmx for years? And formula too for that matter


They appear to have similar geometry outlines. 

OTOH, MK Z feel more like Samick Master, In particular the thick grip. MK Beta feels very much like the Hoyt RX.


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Looks a lot like my WNS forged elite....


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

chang said:


> View attachment 7681487


Exactly my first though lol. 
imagine what would’ve happened if they came out in reverse order 😭


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## godwinmt (Nov 25, 2012)

I would stand to reason that the commonality in shapes across manufacturers is just a result of more FEA involvement and optimization in designs vs what has been done in the past. In the end, there will be an 'optimum' solution given a set of boundary constraints, and things are just converging to that point...it already has happened in other industries, archery's just catching up.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

They are all just gmx clones or variants


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

FerrumVeritas said:


> That's just a brand name for a type of powder coating.


Cerakote is not powder coat. Although they are applied in a similar fashion. Cerakote can withstand way more heat, is harder than powder coating and has cured thickness about half that of powder coatings. Recent types of Cerakote have a wet process similar to two stage paint processes.



Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

stick monkey said:


> They are all just gmx clones or variants


MK Z not only look similar to Samick Master, their weight distribution and grip area thickness also similar. and the Master were earlier than GMX.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

chang said:


> MK Z not only look similar to Samick Master, their weight distribution and grip area thickness also similar. and the Master were earlier than GMX.
> View attachment 7682380


And every single one of those bows mentioned was geometrically based on the Hoyt TD4- including the limb attachment system.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Seattlepop said:


> Regarding the dampener in the limb pockets, if you have a GMX or Epik, you can make your own. These small limbsavers fits perfectly in the cutout in the limb pockets of both risers:
> 
> View attachment 7680586


The Epik was a great riser, I’m still trying to find one for sale Lol


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## MooseisLoose (11 mo ago)

Everyone is talking about the riser and I'm wondering how those limbs will shoot for a barebow rig and whether they're any different from the velos.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

godwinmt said:


> I would stand to reason that the commonality in shapes across manufacturers is just a result of more FEA involvement and optimization in designs vs what has been done in the past. In the end, there will be an 'optimum' solution given a set of boundary constraints, and things are just converging to that point...it already has happened in other industries, archery's just catching up.
> 
> View attachment 7681691


Except that there aren't really any space to aerodynamic ratios with risers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chang said:


> MK Z not only look similar to Samick Master, their weight distribution and grip area thickness also similar. and the Master were earlier than GMX.
> View attachment 7682380


I was actually thinking this newest riser reminds me of the Cartel riser I had for a while. It shot darn good too.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

If I remember correctly the same people who ran samick or samick engineers are the ones who started mk


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I was actually thinking this newest riser reminds me of the Cartel riser I had for a while. It shot darn good too.


Cartel Midas?


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

>--gt--> said:


> And every single one of those bows mentioned was geometrically based on the Hoyt TD4- including the limb attachment system.


Greenhorn Victory and N-Product G


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

MooseisLoose said:


> Everyone is talking about the riser and I'm wondering how those limbs will shoot for a barebow rig and whether they're any different from the velos.


I think it's harder to evaluate a set of limbs visually or from a spec sheet. I am confident that durability was the focus of these changes.


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

I’ve heard that the new limbs have been shot in competition already. Just decked out in velos graphics. They are supposedly thinker than the velos


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## MooseisLoose (11 mo ago)

Theisgroup said:


> I’ve heard that the new limbs have been shot in competition already. Just decked out in velos graphics. They are supposedly thinker than the velos


I should hope so. The velos are probably the slowest flagship limb out there


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

MooseisLoose said:


> I should hope so. The velos are probably the slowest flagship limb out there


Maybe, but they’re also some of the, if not the, stiffest. In terms of accuracy, torsional stability is more important for single distance target than speed.


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## MooseisLoose (11 mo ago)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Maybe, but they’re also some of the, if not the, stiffest. In terms of accuracy, torsional stability is more important for single distance target than speed.


Maybe it's just me but I get much tighter groups with uukhas. They feel more forgiving too.

The velos feel like a mid 2000s limb


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I think the velos were an okay limb. Everyone is going to have preferences. I didn’t think they were super fast but I did think they were super smooth in comparison with other limbs. Ultimately it was a feeling that I wasn’t used to… and I feel the same with uukha…
Me personally I still just love a maple core…carbon or no carbon…doesn’t really matter to me.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I really don’t understand having strong preferences for core materials, as they have minimal impact, if any, on the bow’s characteristics. Their significant characteristics are taper, width, and weight. That’s it.

Maybe they affect the way a bow sounds, but not as much as brace height, stabilizer setup, or arrow choice.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I really don’t understand having strong preferences for core materials, as they have minimal impact, if any, on the bow’s characteristics. Their significant characteristics are taper, width, and weight. That’s it.
> 
> Maybe they affect the way a bow sounds, but not as much as brace height, stabilizer setup, or arrow choice.


Like you said...it's all personal preference. Some prefer the feel of foam, some prefer maple/bamboo/flax or any other combination of materials. The more I get involved in archery, the more different setups I see. None are really wrong but everyone has their own reason to try it or like it.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Maggiemaebe said:


> Like you said...it's all personal preference. Some prefer the feel of foam, some prefer maple/bamboo/flax or any other combination of materials. The more I get involved in archery, the more different setups I see. None are really wrong but everyone has their own reason to try it or like it.


I just mean that if you blacked the sides of limbs that were otherwise identical with the only difference being the core, I would be surprised if even top archers could reliably tell the difference


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I just mean that if you blacked the sides of limbs that were otherwise identical with the only difference being the core, I would be surprised if even top archers could reliably tell the difference


They could.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> They could.


Between otherwise identical limbs? In a blind test?

Because the only (third hand, anecdotal) example I’m aware of is W&W’s original NS limbs where top archers couldn’t tell the difference, but still asked for wood “because they liked wood better.”

I know Sid has said he can’t measure a difference in speed or draw force curve (smoothness).


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

MooseisLoose said:


> Maybe it's just me but I get much tighter groups with uukhas. They feel more forgiving too.
> 
> The velos feel like a mid 2000s limb


I found the opposite, I find Uukha very unforgiving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> They could.


I’m not top professional and I could…I have shot all different cores and the shapes amongst all these are pretty similar…unless you are getting out calipers and graphing dimensions they are somewhat similar if not in some circumstances the exact dimensions are the same…core woods matter…I don’t believe it is all controlled by the glass like many bowyers keep saying every time one of these threads gets started….one of you regurgitates what someone else said…I’ll trust what I believe and let people believe what they want to believe even when I know they are wrong


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Bigjono said:


> I found the opposite, I find Uukha very unforgiving.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had the same experience.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Most people can’t exploit any limbs…and bandwagoners will continue to shoot what their favorite pro or what their buddy told them is the best


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Between otherwise identical limbs? In a blind test?
> 
> Because the only (third hand, anecdotal) example I’m aware of is W&W’s original NS limbs where top archers couldn’t tell the difference, but still asked for wood “because they liked wood better.”
> 
> I know Sid has said he can’t measure a difference in speed or draw force curve (smoothness).


I believe I could hear the difference. Obvious difference between the NS wood and Foam to me. 


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

stick monkey said:


> I’m not top professional and I could…I have shot all different cores and the shapes amongst all these are pretty similar…unless you are getting out calipers and graphing dimensions they are somewhat similar if not in some circumstances the exact dimensions are the same…core woods matter…I don’t believe it is all controlled by the glass like many bowyers keep saying every time one of these threads gets started….one of you regurgitates what someone else said…I’ll trust what I believe and let people believe what they want to believe even when I know they are wrong


I’m still quite skeptical. People that sell both have no reason to push one over the other, and presumably do more testing than any single archer.

I’m no slouch, and I have both the MXT-GW and the MXT-GF. I obviously know which is which, but I don’t feel a difference.

But the reason why I doubt archers’ experiences Is that they don’t corroborate each other. Many will claim wood is smoother. Many will claim foam is smoother. Same with speed claims. Or claims about bamboo. But there’s no data to show it.

I don’t know many top recurve archers. Top barebow archers certainly have opinions, but rarely about core materials. I don’t think many have had the opportunity to shoot the same limbs with different cores because of less manufacturer interaction.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I shot ex powers and ex primes …very different feelings…and identical in every way without getting out calipers…I shot hoyt f7 when they had wood core and foam cores in the same model…very different…I have never understood the concept of what people describe as smooth…for years the majority of olympians had always shot wood cores and said it was because they were smoother…My perception of foam is it’s more smooth and squishy…how I perceive smooth…and someone else perceive the feeling of smoothness might be completely different…then along came bamboo velos…which I thought were the smoothest limbs that I had ever drawn…could I always tell the difference between bamboo and foam…I don’t know…but those two and specifically hard maple cores? I think I could tell absolutely….if you can’t feel the difference maybe you aren’t practicing enough.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

They do have a reason to push one or the other…availability of materials…cost of core materials…ease of manufacturing??? All these factors we aren’t privy to that information.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I think manufacturers may make decisions based on their top shooters…there might be some manufacturers who don’t care…knowing that whatever they release it is going to sell based on the popularity of their top ranked archer who represents them. That being said…I do believe they are trying to push the envelope…develop the next best thing…even though it’s difference to the shooter may be inconceivable


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

stick monkey said:


> …but those two and specifically hard maple cores? I think I could tell absolutely….if you can’t feel the difference maybe you aren’t practicing enough.


We can disagree and have discussions without resorting to ad hominims. My weekly arrow count is quite high. I won’t claim to be a top shooter, but I hold my own with them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't even think you'd have to be a "top level" shooter to tell the difference. Just someone who has shot long enough, using different limbs. 



Gregjlongbow said:


> I believe I could hear the difference. Obvious difference between the NS wood and Foam to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A study on golf drivers once showed that what most people called "feel" was instead actually "sound" and I think that is mostly true for limbs too. It's not hard to tell the difference between a foam and wood core limb from 10 feet away, just by the sound. I think that's what a lot of people are sensing when they "feel" the difference - leaving draw force curve out of the equation for a moment. If we were all wearing earplugs, I think it would be harder for us to "feel" the difference between foam and wood core limbs although I think in some instances it would still be obvious.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Sound I’ll concede. They do sound different. I’ll even grant that that means there’s a difference in vibration. But speed, smoothness, or stability? I can’t measure a difference, nor can I detect one.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No offense but this is kind of a pointless discussion, is it not?


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I just mean that if you blacked the sides of limbs that were otherwise identical with the only difference being the core, I would be surprised if even top archers could reliably tell the difference


I know we are talking about flagship limbs here...but I do have a case study I've done with a bunch of archers in my club who bought entry level WNS limbs in both the foam and wood core around 28lbs, medium length.

From my own personal testing, I've noticed that wood/bamboo limbs tend to "feel" stiffer in the back (or what folks would refer to as "stack"). I don't have a DFC test rig like Jake Kaminski does so this is more anecdotal evidence from my own personal feeling of testing different flagship 34lb long recurve limbs of different cores.

With that said, new archers in the club were encouraged to purchase foam core limbs, and most of them got WNS Delta F2 limbs (the fiber/foam one.) I've pulled back a bunch of them and they all feel really nice and not stiff in the back. Later in the collegiate season, everything started to go out of stock so clubbers were starting to pick up wood core limbs, the WNS Delta F3s. I swear, comparing F2s (foam) and F3s (wood) side by side on the same riser at the same marked draw weight, the F3s just felt much more stacky after about 24 inches of draw. Now sure you may call bias on my part, but I've had the inexperienced, less opinionated beginner archers pull back both limbs without prior comment and they noticed a significant difference where the foam felt easier and smoother to pull in the last 4+ inches of draw.

Obviously everyone's miles may vary and I do think this doesn't necessarily translate easily because of different limb geometries and design paradigms between manufacturers. How each limb plays with each riser also can alter limb feel. I swear my W&W MXT-10 foams are way smoother mounted on a Xceed/ATF/SpigBB compared to when I mounted them to a Fivics Argon-X.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> No offense but this is kind of a pointless discussion, is it not?


Aren’t they all?

And I don’t think so. A discussion that helps make decisions around purchases of hundreds of dollars worth of stuff is useful.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

fango0000 said:


> I know we are talking about flagship limbs here...but I do have a case study I've done with a bunch of archers in my club who bought entry level WNS limbs in both the foam and wood core around 28lbs, medium length.
> 
> From my own personal testing, I've noticed that wood/bamboo limbs tend to "feel" stiffer in the back (or what folks would refer to as "stack"). I don't have a DFC test rig like Jake Kaminski does so this is more anecdotal evidence from my own personal feeling of testing different flagship 34lb long recurve limbs of different cores.
> 
> ...


This is an example of where I wish it were/could be an apples to apples comparison. But the F2s use a single layer of foam and the F3s a split layer of wood. So the taper throughout the construction isn't going to be the same. It's impossible to tell how relevant the material is, or how much of it is a difference in construction. 

For practical purposes, I think you could absolutely say, "The F2s are smoother than the F3s." You may even be able to say that a single layer of foam is generally smoother than a split layer of wood in less expensive limbs, if you also compared the Galaxy Bronze Star and Silver Star for example.


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

Also as a side note, if the limb cores don't matter, why does the Easton Arrow Selector app ask what kind of limbs will be used?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Aren’t they all?
> 
> And I don’t think so. A discussion that helps make decisions around purchases of hundreds of dollars worth of stuff is useful.


That's assuming the end user will actually achieve different results with only the slightest difference in limb characteristics, and the statistics don't bear that out. Go back and look at all the scores that someone like Brady has shot over the past 10 years, with how many different limb/riser combinations. Not a statistically significant difference. Which is why I view most of these equipment conversations in OR especially, as pointless. 

Our physical and mental preparation has much more bearing on the outcome than any of this stuff.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

AzureSkydiver said:


> Also as a side note, if the limb cores don't matter, why does the Easton Arrow Selector app ask what kind of limbs will be used?


Because the belly and back material absolutely does matter. Carbon is faster than fiberglass, mostly because it’s lighter. That means more force in the arrow and thus a slightly stiffer required spine.


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

Seems to me that would then definitely add more credence to the "sound" idea where people can tell the differences in limbs...on release. So the question that seems to be the left is: in a blind test, can people tell the difference on draw, specially if the draw force curves don't seem to highlight anything significantly different?


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

No advertisement of increased speed or decrease in mass weight. I wonder if durability enhanced,resin soaked limbs, are slower?


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Good question on the resin infused wood? Or whatever it might be… you would think that the density of the laminations would have changed and therefore it must be heavier as a core material
Heavier usually equals slower…


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Okay


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

ryan b. said:


> No advertisement of increased speed or decrease in mass weight. I wonder if durability enhanced,resin soaked limbs, are slower?


They seem to be a replacement to the Velos limbs--Velos is no longer advertised on the site. All Hoyt is saying is they are more consistent and stable. Given most speed increase claims are in the 2-3 FPS range, there is probably not a lot manufactures can do to increase limbs speed, at least without making the limbs less forgiving or inconsistent (2 FPS increase is insignificant and not very useful as there are not parameters given for that (you could probably get more speed out of your limbs by just turning your tiller bolts in or by making your arrows lighter)). I expect the performance is going to be close to the Velos with maybe more consistency between limbs. 

I suspect the resin process is taking some of the variability out of the wood cores to make them more consistent unit to unit. For some reason, Hoyt or Hoyt customers prefer natural materials in their limbs. 

Personally, I would want more consistent limbs rather than just faster ones. Also, Win&Win's top-of-the-line limbs are not their fastest, at least by what the company states. It might be the archers are favoring limbs with more stability, "smoothness," and control over just speed. I also remember an interview with John Demmer where he talked about period of just trying to get the fastest arrow flight, but had a hard time getting a good performance out of that. 

I think until people start shooting these limbs, I am not sure what to make of them. Although I am pretty sure they will be good limbs. Will everyone like them? I am pretty sure they will not. But that is archers for you--we just can't agree on anything.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

ryan b. said:


> No advertisement of increased speed or decrease in mass weight. I wonder if durability enhanced,resin soaked limbs, are slower?


 Resin filled wood feels very much like plastic though.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

When people thinks to "wood core", is still imagines a flat layer of wood cut from a tree. These kind of layers don't exist anymore in the real industrial making of limbs.
Quoting a maker of limbs:
"Action bamboo is a bamboo laminate, like the picture below, it has been used widely, even in some high class limbs. Compared with normal wood core, action bamboo has better straightness, and lower reject rate during product period, which means it has better performance but lower cost"










Being this the basic material for "Bamboo core" limbs, you also can get almost infinite combinations of different wood and/or bamboo fibers in linear or/and cross combinations to get to a specific result in terms of strength, flexibility and cost, like happens for Carbon fibers. .
Below an example of available "woods" made by a specialized Italian Company making "high tech woods! ...








Finally, of course these solutions need epoxi resin to be made.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

Vittorio said:


> ..
> Finally, of course these solutions need epoxi resin to be made.


Resin can be used to laminate wood/bamboo, but there are also processes to soak wood with resin to fill the cavities and prevent moisture.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S095965261933210X


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

>--gt--> said:


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S095965261933210X


Ah, so you are making your cores out of MDF... 👼


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

Ssshhh... IKEA is going into the archery limb business... NDA stuff...


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

AzureSkydiver said:


> Ssshhh... IKEA is going into the archery limb business... NDA stuff...


I bet they’re Leo’s new sponsor. Sorry Vittorio


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm at a skill, and gullibility, level that I don't care what's on the inside, as long as there is a flying squirrel logo on the outside...


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I’m shooting some limbs that are like 10 years old…I’ve seen people using limbs that are much older. I had two sets of velos last year and I got rid of them before their bad image and delaminating in competition reputation…I honestly would be quite pissed if my 800 limbs only lasted a year or 3,4,5 years…I know from personal experience Hoyt isn’t great with warranty… I had an issue with 840’s and even within the year they wouldn’t replace them…they were within their tolerances…which was not anywhere close to the limb rating…this was a 200 something dollar limbs and they would not honor their warranty…anyone dealt with this in the past…especially with top end limbs and a couple years old…does Hoyt stand by their products? If limbs can delaminate in the first year then I would bet they are even more likely to delaminate the second year? Okay Hoyt people tell me how they bent over backwards for you but not for my 250 dollar limbs…


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I watched Doug give someone the limbs off of his bow last year when theirs blew up, then have a new set overnighted to the guy that day. But I don’t know what it’s like if it’s not an issue they see in person.


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

I’m shooting the carbon plus limbs. I have had a pair replace without any issue. But it was back 30 years ago. I’ve also had am2 risers replace in the same timeframe.
I do know that a friend of mine had issues at socal this year and Doug went and picked up 2 sets of limbs for my buddy


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

How about where you have had to send them in and they don’t have to look you in the face? Or how about velos outside the year warranty or even 3 year old x tours?


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

My carbon plus limbs were more than 3 years old. My risers were 2-3 years old. None of which I knew anyone at hoyt. This was all done through my hoyt dealer


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Well John Demmer has the new riser and limbs now so I will be interested to hear his thoughts on them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## maxpowerpc2000 (Apr 5, 2010)

An in-depth look at the new Hoyt Axia limbs with Hoyt Recurve Designer Doug Denton and World Record holder Brady Ellison. #Hoyt #BowsOfChampions... | By Hoyt Archery: Target | Facebook


၄.၁ထောင် views, ၁၄၇ likes, ၁၁ loves, ၉ comments, ၂၉ shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Hoyt Archery: Target: An in-depth look at the new Hoyt Axia limbs with Hoyt Recurve Designer Doug Denton and...




fb.watch




Didn't get much info from the experts. But it seems like they are down playing the "speed" of the limbs. Also they never said the word "wood" which is kind weird.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Optimal torsional stability…whatever that is…but Hoyt is apparently the first to do it.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

stick monkey said:


> Optimal torsional stability…whatever that is…but Hoyt is apparently the first to do it.


It’s notable that the Velos were the stiffest limbs of those Kaminski tested. In theory this does allow them to have lower potential variation from shot to shot and thus higher potential accuracy. In practice? Show me someone who can produce a measurable difference (and if they exist, I doubt they’re buying/have a choice in the specific equipment they’re shooting).


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

exceptionally torsionally stiff limbs aren’t forgiving for me…words like optimal are just speculation and optimal marketing tactics at best


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

>--gt--> said:


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S095965261933210X


The article mentioned: "When 0.35 kg or 0.56 kg PMMA was added to 1 kg pine wood, the tensile strength along fibers was increased from 95 MPa to 102 or 118 MPa", Density or volume data were absent in the article. it is not clear how that would affect the performance.


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## mglembourtt (8 mo ago)

FerrumVeritas said:


> It’s notable that the Velos were the stiffest limbs of those Kaminski tested. In theory this does allow them to have lower potential variation from shot to shot and thus higher potential accuracy. In practice? Show me someone who can produce a measurable difference (and if they exist, I doubt they’re buying/have a choice in the specific equipment they’re shooting).


So I am not a highly experienced competitor, but I'll just relate my experience. I have a Hoyt Xceed riser and have been steadily increasing my draw weight for two years. I recently bought a set of Velos limbs (42#) and my scores went up significantly compared to the less expensive Samick limbs that I was using previously. Lots of factors might account for the improvement and this is just an "N" of one... but I believe that I get smaller left-right group spread with the Velos limbs. I am VERY happy with them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

mglembourtt said:


> So I am not a highly experienced competitor, but I'll just relate my experience. I have a Hoyt Xceed riser and have been steadily increasing my draw weight for two years. I recently bought a set of Velos limbs (42#) and my scores went up significantly compared to the less expensive Samick limbs that I was using previously. Lots of factors might account for the improvement and this is just an "N" of one... but I believe that I get smaller left-right group spread with the Velos limbs. I am VERY happy with them.


That's all that matters.

The confidence one often gets from a new piece of kit, especially if it's their first premium purchase, can often result in better scores for a number of reasons. It's not uncommon in sports like archery that are 90% mental.


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## mglembourtt (8 mo ago)

limbwalker said:


> That's all that matters.
> 
> The confidence one often gets from a new piece of kit, especially if it's their first premium purchase, can often result in better scores for a number of reasons. It's not uncommon in sports like archery that are 90% mental.


So I certainly cannot prove this... but I do believe that my Velos limbs are more "accurate or forgiving" than my other limbs. Of course it could all be in my head, but I don't think so.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

mglembourtt said:


> So I certainly cannot prove this... but I do believe that my Velos limbs are more "accurate or forgiving" than my other limbs. Of course it could all be in my head, but I don't think so.


Like John said, it only matters that it works for you. I love proof but don’t overthink it. If it feels right go with it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

I watched the video on Lancaster and they said the grip was dropped to make sight window larger. As a barebow shooter i was wondering what does making the top portion of the riser longer? Will that make the riser kick back more or forward? Anybody know.


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## Ray.L (Apr 29, 2021)

If you're using weights/stabs, it won't make much of a difference.


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## russch (Jun 15, 2002)

I think the sight window enlargement is a side effect of improving the balance and dropping the grip position to improve holding power.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Maybe someone could make a video of how the riser sits in one's hand without weights and unstrung? I think it would be nice to be able to actually see how it balances like that. It would be most helpful 😊


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

The hoyt video with Brady and Doug has that. Doug balances the riser on the grip. He said that with the 2 included weights in the bottom pocket, makes the bow balance at the pivot point of the grip


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Theisgroup said:


> The hoyt video with Brady and Doug has that. Doug balances the riser on the grip. He said that with the 2 included weights in the bottom pocket, makes the bow balance at the pivot point of the grip


Thank you


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## russch (Jun 15, 2002)

Looking for the video I previously watched with the guys from Shibuya shooting the Hoyt XD. Help me find it again! Please! Oops! Just found it!


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)




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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

One thing I will say is that basically everyone reacts the same way on their first shot with this. They’re not necessarily always sure if they like it, but I’ll give credit where credits is due: it clearly feels different.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

starchaser said:


> I watched the video on Lancaster and they said the grip was dropped to make sight window larger. As a barebow shooter i was wondering what does making the top portion of the riser longer? Will that make the riser kick back more or forward? Anybody know.


I honestly think this is disadvantageous for barebow in my eyes. Since barebows typically have to stringwalk to shoot anything under their point on (which is usually 50-60m for adult poundages), it already places an uneven load on the limbs. One of my least favorite feelings is when I have to stringwalk 2+ inches to shoot 18m on BB and I just feel the bottom limb taking more load. Sure there's ways to ameliorate that (tillering, stupid high nock points, very heavy arrows, etc.), but on a Formula XD, I imagine this phenomenom will be even worse. Not only does it cause unilateral pre-mature wear on the bottom limb, I think it makes the bow feel unbalanced aiming at full hold at short distances. 

I see a lower grip as something that potentially favors olympic recurve shooters but potentially negative for BB shooters who want to shoot formula. 

I'd love to hear any experienced BB shooters speak to the contrary if they think this lowered grip geometry is favorable for stringwalking BBs.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

For barebow: my guess is that this will be useful for the 50m game, but not pleasant at all indoors.


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## russch (Jun 15, 2002)

Fairly new to the Barebow game. But, can’t these issues as listed above be compensated with tiller adjustments and rest positioning using maybe the lower position Clicker plates. Or maybe lower poundage limbs for indoor? will be interested in what some of the top Barebow shooters have to say.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

russch said:


> Fairly new to the Barebow game. But, can’t these issues as listed above be compensated with tiller adjustments and rest positioning using maybe the lower position Clicker plates. Or maybe lower poundage limbs for indoor? will be interested in what some of the top Barebow shooters have to say.


Sure. But they could also be compensated for with a different riser. 
You wouldn't want the lower position clicker plates. You'd want the arrow higher. But most barebow archers are already using the high plates on the Xceed and other Hoyt bows. 
Basically while this bow may be amazing for the outdoor game, where you have a consistent setup, indoors or field would require even further compensation than stringwalking normally requires.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)




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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

That is just creepy - a very crude image hack of Sjef’s head on Brady’s body. 😆 (I think it would need a bit more finesse to be counted as Photoshopping!)

Stretch


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)




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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

russch said:


> Fairly new to the Barebow game. But, can’t these issues as listed above be compensated with tiller adjustments and rest positioning using maybe the lower position Clicker plates. Or maybe lower poundage limbs for indoor? will be interested in what some of the top Barebow shooters have to say.


I have tried things like a negative tiller up to 3/8 inch and high nock points. It doesnt ever make the bow feel balanced at full hold when you have to crawl your whole tab at 18m. As for heavy arrows, they are a preference that some people dont like. They tend to be slow and leave the bow slow meaning easier to throw the arrow (for good or bad.)


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Maybe Vittorio can chime and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Gillo GT series risers has a higher grip and shelf position to help ameliorate stringwalking for BB.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

fango0000 said:


> Maybe Vittorio can chime and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Gillo GT series risers has a higher grip and shelf position to help ameliorate stringwalking for BB.


For G1-27, GT-27, GT-29 and GT-31 (and Luxor 27 before them) yes, grip is higher but not only to help BB stringwalking. G1-25, GX-25, GX-25, GQ-25 are simmetric to the throat of the grip, but when we move to shorther risers, situation reverses a bit as shorter risers need a bit more of window that longer risers don't. 
We make our Formula 25 GT from the 23" ILF body, resuting in a 25.5 Formula riser. Window is in any case the real limit for 25" Formula risers, as practically, if they are made simmetric and really 25" long only, the windows corresponds to the one of a 22.5" ILF riser, becoming difficult to be used at short distance by people with tall face or high poundage, as sight will be impossible to be set to aim for instance at 10 mt in Field archery and for some people even 18 mt can be a problem
So, again, moving the grip to be lower than center helps to get more windows for target /sight shooting, as in any case stabilizers can take care of the final balance of the bow.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Found another video


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

They're really sending a lot of promo risers out. I think both Anthony and Sjef had a similar reaction to the difference in the way the bow feels. I think Sjef realized immediately that his current stabilizer configuration wouldn't work with it.


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## russch (Jun 15, 2002)

In each of the videos I’ve watched, the initial reaction of these top Olympic style archers is so positive. Watch their body language as well as listen to their comments. I would like to see a video of a top Barebow archer doing his or her first shot.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Yes i would love to see what a top barebow archer's thoughts are.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

starchaser said:


> Yes i would love to see what a top barebow archer's thoughts are.


John Demmer is currently shooting it, so maybe ask him.


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## russch (Jun 15, 2002)

Maybe Mr Demmer or other Barebow archers are reading this and will give us all their thoughts. Inquisitive minds want to know!


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Do I recall correctly that the formula hpx had this lower grip position? Or just lower grip in relation to the Berger hole? I know for a fact that bow shot crazy good for barebow…in my experience any riser made for Olympic is easily tuned to shoot for barebow…it’s not that difficult. Unless you have some majorly long crawls…it should be doable


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

stick monkey said:


> Do I recall correctly that the formula hpx had this lower grip position? Or just lower grip in relation to the Berger hole? I know for a fact that bow shot crazy good for barebow…in my experience any riser made for Olympic is easily tuned to shoot for barebow…it’s not that difficult. Unless you have some majorly long crawls…it should be doable


The HPX had less deflex and a higher cushion plunger hole (to match the distance between pivot point and pressure point to the distance between plunger hole and pivot point). That is useful for barebow, as it means we can have more normal nock heights (and is why nearly every barebow archer shooting a bow with adjustable button height is using the high setting). But it assumes a particular hand size and grip angle for recurve (which is why you see many female archers preferring a lower setting on Hoyt Vertatune or WIAWIS risers).

That has a different effect than lowering the whole grip/pivot/pressure height.

The more I think about it, the more I think that only relatively high wrist recurve archers will benefit from the XD geometry. Demmer might prove me wrong, although I trust him to let tuning results rather than feel dictate his riser choice. But I think anyone using it indoors (barebow) will have to be shooting heavy arrows.

Doug discusses it here (I think the change I approve of most since then is his hair cut).


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

The less deflex helped with balance in my opinion…the hpx held on target and aimed so well for me. I had 5 of them over the years and the same one 3 different times…I always leave looking for something better but always come back to the hpx…over the years I have learned what works…and what I like…the velos I had on my last hpx taught me I don’t like bamboo.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

In case anyone is curious, the VT plates are high: 3/4”, medium 5/8”, and low 1/2” above the shelf. My GT is 11/16”.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

The HPX came with pivoting limb bolts? Does the XD? Are the pivoting limb bolts a good thing?


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I don’t think Hoyt’s using those any more


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## Eugenrigips (Jul 24, 2018)

I think it's a good looking riser and i really hope they release a similar looking ILF riser next year.

One thing that really bothers me though is the insane price for it......

The riser and the limbs both cost around 1000€ here..... I know energy and material prices have increased a lot, but I wonder if this price is really justified.

I would always choose the W&W ATF wich sells for 650€ right now. But lets see what W&W will ask for their newest gen riser.

If prices for archery keep increasing like that I will honestly just keep my Hoyt Epik forever, wich cost me about 540€ and probably offer me the same performance.


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## Theisgroup (Oct 19, 2020)

Funny, back in the day when there was only a few manufacture of recurves, hoyt was the economic choice.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Eugenrigips said:


> I think it's a good looking riser and i really hope they release a similar looking ILF riser next year.
> 
> One thing that really bothers me though is the insane price for it......
> 
> ...


If you ever want to sell it, please let me know! 😊


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Theisgroup said:


> Funny, back in the day when there was only a few manufacture of recurves, hoyt was the economic choice.


I wonder what the entry of reasonable quality Chinese made risers (Kinetic, WNS, Galaxy) has done to our perception of value. Because “cheap” kit is much better than it was even 10 years ago. 

On the other hand, the increased costs on the high end, largely from Hoyt and WIAWIS, have skewed perception too. You’re paying a lot of money to essentially say that you’re shooting the most expensive kit. 

The mid-range, where Hoyt Arcos, Gillo, Winex, and Mybo sit, seems to have tracked with inflation reasonably well while still improving in quality (yes, specific nits could be picked, but I believe this is generally true). It’s just that the top and bottom have gotten way, way further apart.


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