# paper tuning a hoyt vtec?



## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

your rest timing is probably the problem, coming up that early especially with the steel cable on the nap it is probably holding back your cables.
reset the rest cable so it comes up in the last 1.5 inches and see how it goes from there.
also be sure that your arrow is bisecting the berger button hole when the rest is all the way up.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

i readjusted the dropaway rest so that now it comes up much later. but how come i had to move my rest so far to the left of the centerline of the cams to get it to shoot through the paper correctly. i did have my arrow very slightly above center on the berger hole but with the lowering of the rest i ended up with it about a 1/4 inch lower. hopefully the nap rest adjustment will do what i need it to. could my cam stop timing or any of that be causing my problems. thanks


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

First and foremost, make sure your cams are timed. If they are not they will shoot your arrows nock high or low. See the sticky by Javi, "Tuning the cam and 1/2." 
Then make adjustments to your drop away in small increments. 
Also make sure you powder test to rule out rest contact.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

my cams appear to be sync'd properly by the line up holes and when i pull back the bow to where the bottom cam stops the top cam appears to be lined up properly....like on javi's thread. so i think my sync and stop timing are alright.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

now that i think about it .....doesnt the issue almost have to be a timing issue. i mean, what else could cause my knock to need to be atleast a 1/4" high. thanks


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

Try moving your rest again but start with the arrow 3/4 inch from center to the riser and the nock at a point that puts the arrow at 90 to the string. Just move 1/32 inch at a time. I had my Ultra-tec with the nock 3/8 ich high and noticed the vanes were hitting off the foam arrow holder and this somehow made it shoot halfway decent. I movesd to 90 and it only took 1/16 to shoot bullets.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

right now my rest is 7/8" from the riser. I measured the tiller with the limbs tight against the riser and i am only 1mm off between the top and bottom limbs. i measured from where my limbs meet the riser and back to the string....is that correct way? I had my mother take some pics of my top cam to be sure that what i was seeing in the mirror was correct....she took 4 pics. 2 of them look perfect and the other 2 look just a hair under rotated.....and I mean barely under rotated. i was barely holding the bow against the bottom cam stop to check the top cam........i didnt want to pull too hard and affect it. i am hoping the rest was my problem.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

ok...now i am lost. cranked the bow all of the way tight and checked the till...was off by about a mm. raised my rest so that the arrow was level (90deg) with the string and shot through paper. nock was about an inch low and to the right by about 1/2 an inch. without changing anything else i then loosened the limbs by 4 turns. at that point my nocks were about 1/2 an inch low and an inch to the left. then i went a couple of turns tighter and sure enough it split the difference.....brought my nocks closer to the middle on paper. why is changing the weight affecting my tears. i have been checking my tiller each time and it is hardly changing, (maybe by a mm), when i adjust the weight. i checked for clearance and my vanes are not contacting anything. if i try to make bullet holes i have to set my rest at 7/8" out from the riser and lower the tip of the arrow alot with the nock being probably about 3/8 of an inch higher than the rest. what is going on with this thing.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

When you change the draw weight, you affect the spine of the arrow. This is why your paper tear changes. It would seem to me that you are synchronizing the cams properly and you are also measuring the tiller properly; by bottoming out both limbs then backing out to your desired weight with equal turns to your top and bottom limbs. This is the correct way. Don't worry too much if after doing this the measurement is a smidge off. That's normal. 
What I would do is set your desired draw weight, then shoot 3 arrows through paper each with a different point weight: 75gr., 100gr., 125gr. This will give you an idea of what kind of spine your particular set-up is preferring. Once you find the one with the best tear, experiment a little with your grip and observe how this affects the tears. Let us know how it goes... 
Oh, and don't give up, you'll get it right.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

thanks reverend.....i thought that i would do a little testing and here is what is happening. i turned both limbs out 8 turns and i was getting 1.5" tears nock straight to the left(9 oclock position). up and down was good. i then reduced to only 7 turns out. this shortened the tear a little (1.25") but nock down (.25") at the same time. (nock about 8 oclock). i did this to 5 turns and by then the nock was at the 7 oclock position with the tear being about .75" long. see the pattern happening here. with the limbs tightened all of the way down the nock was at about 5 oclock position. i was unable to get a bullet hole by adjusting the rest left to right. actually adjusting the rest left and right did not seem to have much effect.


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## tjwood (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi Shooter76. If you need any sympathy, you've got it from me! I'm going through exactly the same pain as you (I've got a 2004 Ultratec). No matter how much I move the arrow rest left or right I can't get bullet holes. I'm already experimenting with three different spined Easton ACCs: one recommended by the Easton arrow charts plus one spine weaker and one spine stiffer. I put an 80grain point in each one but there's not much difference between them as far as paper holes go. I think I'm going to have to try different point weights, but I've been told that I need to make sure I don't go too light as that will affect the FOC and introduce yet more problems. 
Good luck with your testing and please keep posting the results. I'll do the same - between us we might be able to nail this one for good. 

Regards,
Tony


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I've had 3 Ultratecs, 1 Vtec, 1 Trykon XL. They've all tuned at 3/4 in. center shot, and about level nock point. It seems to me that your arrow is acting too stiff. That means that as you increase draw weight, you're improving the flight. If the flight was improved as you decreased weight, that would signify a weaker arrow. 
Here's what I would do: 
A. Set the bow at the weight you want. You don't want to shoot at 70# if you intended to set it up at 63#. Later you can adjust the weight up or down 1-2#s for finer tuning. 
B. Either try the same arrow, an inch or two longer, or try increasing the point weight to 125 gr.
C. Make sure you do your tuning with only one arrow, from about 6 feet away.
D. Add one complete twist to your buss cable (the one with the yoke attached). Shoot and see what happens. If nothing happens, add another twist. If nothing happens, bring the buss cable back (untwist 2X), and now untwist once. First one, then 2, etc. What you're trying to do is determine how the sync. is affecting the flight. If nothing happens bring back to original set-up where they are properly timed.
E. Try shooting hard against the stops. What happens? Now a little less. Any changes?
F. *Experiment with your grip. * *Most tuning problems can be traced back to grip.* Hoyts can be a little sensitive in this area. First try to add pressure to your thumb while you shoot, then your palm, then your heal. Now notice how the way you hold your bow affects the tear.
G. I've got one more idea, but I won't tell you until you've exhausted all these steps...:wink: 
Never give up! You'll get there.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

tonight i tried 3 different point weights. 85, 100, and 125. all of them performed very similiarly. there really wasnt much of a difference between them in what they did to the paper. i did try pulling hard back into the cams and it did increase the length of the tear by about 1/8-3/16". why is it that at lower weight my tear is horizontal but when i increase the poundage the tear starts to become more vertical? i was using the same arrow switching the tips out. my cams are fairly straight......you cannot tell that they lean until you put an arrow against the cam and even then they are off by only about 1/8" at the end of the arrow. about adjusting the cables.....dont i need a press to do that? thanks again


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

shooter i'm sending you a pm i can help


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## lvandev (Oct 10, 2006)

Have you tried shooting through paper with an unfletched arrow? That should tell you if you have any fletching contact. I was pulling my hair out trying to paper and broadhead tune when the bare shaft paper shot was almost perfect. My problem was the fletching contacting an arrow holder on the riser shelf. I was shooting with a friend that installed a drop away and the arrow groups were inconsistent. He also added a piece of rubber that mounted on the riser shelf. I took the arrow, turned it around where the fletching was at the riser shelf and the arrow was in line with the nock and rest in the launch position, and sure enough the fletchings would contact the rubber piece. That may not be your problem but it is something else to look at.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

well....i am excited and a little upset at the same time.  i finally got the thing to shoot bullet holes but to do so i had to do 2 things. I had to set my drop away up as a non drop(standard old fashioned) rest and i had to turn my bow up. stopping the dropaway action caused my nock to enter the paper level. turning the bow weight up brought the left tear in to the bullet hole. this tells me two things. first my arrows are too stiff......even with 125g points. second my drop away is causing the vertical part of the tear. this was done with correct center shot and arrow lined up 90deg to string. my question is this. should my pro shop give me a proper set of arrows to replace these and give me a refund on the rest? thanks for your help on this all.


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## TX Bowhunter (Dec 13, 2004)

Reverend said:


> First and foremost, make sure your cams are timed. If they are not they will shoot your arrows nock high or low. See the sticky by Javi, "Tuning the cam and 1/2."
> Then make adjustments to your drop away in small increments.
> Also make sure you powder test to rule out rest contact.



Yep. :wink:


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## LEADWORKS (Apr 6, 2006)

yes, your arrows are too stiff. I am currently shooting with arrows that are too stiff, and they will drive you crazy trying to tune them. It can be done, but there are specific things I have to do. For one, I have to shoot with the poundage cranked up. Then, I have to add weights to the bottom of my string (custom string, not a hoyt with weights already on there). Also, the string silencers need to be measured the same distance from the nock, NOT from the cams. I also cannot use a D-loop the regular way, I have to put the D-loop completely under the arrow, or shoot off of the string itself. One thing I don't do is move my rest very far from center to compensate- I refuse. There are lots of tricks you can do with balancing the string to make it work. If I use weaker spined arrows I can do whatever I want, so next set of arrows I get is gonna be weaker!


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## GCOD (Nov 24, 2006)

I think you should go to your local pro shop and have them swap your limbs,put top limbs on bottom and bottom limbs on top,then shoot it through paper i had a hoyt i had this problem with and after i swaped ends with the limbs my tear went from high to low and that told me i had a weak limb,i called hoyt they sent me a new set of limbs i installed them and had no problem paper tuning after that


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

after much suffering and misery i believe i have finally pulled through. i spent the day yesterday at a coulple of the local pro shops and they could not figure out my issue. the one i bought my bow from told me to live with it because it was normal according to them. i went to another who threw my cam timing out of wack to try to change my nock travel. due to my frustration and stuborness i went to bass pro last night and bought a 35.00 cable bow press. i went through javis thread to the t and everything seemed perfect yet it still would make tears over an inch long. tried throwing my cams out both ways to try and change the nock travel enough to bring my paper tear in. still would not change. tried 3 times last night retuning my bow and finally gave up at 330am this morning. laying in bed i was thinking everything over and thought that i would try and make my own d loop out of shoestring to see if my release point might be the problem. i am using a freeflight that attaches directly to the string below the arrow. so this morning i got out the scissors and cut a piece off of an old shoestring...tied it above and below my brass arrow nocks........first shot.......bamm!!!! bullet hole.....second shot....bamm!! another bullet hole. needless to say i am thrilled and pray that my tuning rigors on this thing are over....atleast for now. i cannot believe how critical this bow is to changes compared to my old pse. anyways.....i am happy now :teeth: :teeth:


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

went in yesterday to have my pro shop put a d loop on my string and take my brass arrow string nocks off. they ofcourse thought that my shoestring idea was a hoot and couldnt believe that i did it. they were nice and even adjusted my bow a bit for me since they said it was out a bit. i wasnt worried since i have a press now and can change anything back if needed. brought it home to try my d loop out and it was making tears again. come to find out my top cam was over rotating. i went back through javis thread and set everything right again. bullet holes again!!. the bow now shoots like a dream......too bad it took so much time and money (55.00) to figure out what was going on with it. kinda blows me away that i am the only one that can tune my bow and the two pro shops i went to couldnt. a week ago i didnt even know which cable was the buss and which was the control.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

well the dream didnt last long....eventually i had a high tear that i was trying to get rid of. i have probably spent 60-70 hours of my time now trying to diagnose this thing. i will bet i have done javis thread now probably 15 times. stop timing and cam sync are good. seems the bow is so critical to any changes. if i drop the nock point by so much as an 1/8" my high tear drops by about 1/4"(good) and i develope a right tear by about 1/2"(bad). how changing something that is vertical caused horizontal changes blows me away. also i have found that by changing the position of the bottom string silencer i can also influence the tear by almost 1/4" the part that is the most frustrating is that i cannot necessarily go back to where i was easily. for instance......had my bow shooting near bullet holes with a straight up high tear by about 3/8". verified by several shots. so i lowered the nock point ever so slighly....maybe 1/8". this brought right tears into the picture, so i went to go put it back. now i have right tears that do not seem to go away by putting things back in place. the only thing i moved was the nock point!!!! now i could move the rest to try and compensate for the tear but i have found that to do so puts things so far out of centershot that it is unbelievable. i dont think i could ever own a hoyt again after this experience. has anyone else noticed the number of hoyt tuning threads here compared to other brands....things that make you go hmmmm. unless a miracle happens this thing is going bye bye. :angry:


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

This is the reason I sold my Vtec, and bought a Ultratec. But of course you don't want to hear that. Honestly, I think that for some reason Hoyt's short axle to axle bows have been touchy to tune for some. Here is what I know will help you, even though some guys might frown upon it: *serve (tie) up your floating yoke*. Here's my suggestion:
A. Bring the bow as close to Hoyt specs as possible: A2A, Brace height.
B. Tie in your yoke where it is no longer free floating. 
C. Add 3 twists to the yoke on the right limb.
D. Time your cams according to Javi's sticky.
E. Shoot.
What happened to the tear? Make additional twists and untwists to the yoke. Then re-time. Then shoot. *In this order.* What this does is compensate for cam lean on a short A2A bow. For some reason this cam, limb, and A2A combination wants to shoot arrows out (or in). As unorthodox as this might seem to Hoyt, it'll work. Now Hoyt won't tell you this, but neither will they tell you about timinng your cams. This is one of the reasons, some pro-shops don't have the faintest idea, about synchronizing Hoyt cams. 
Don't give up. Your many hours of tuning have given you a great education. You probably know alot more than the average joe about tuning.:wink:


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## eggomaniac (Dec 4, 2006)

*distance*

have you tried different distances from the paper, to make sure you are measuring at a flat point in the oscillation cycle, and are the tears the same height as your anchor point, perpendicular? also there are some reports that fletchless planing is superior to paper tuning. Check out the Easton arrow sight for instructions on this method for bow tuning


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

got it shooting bullet holes again by a weaker arrow and by adjusting my yoke a bit. yes it is served...not floating. you are right reverend.....i had to add a couple of twists to the right limb.  i had been testing with a weaker arrow and was recieving better results than with the arrows i have. was having same problem as leadworks where he posted here and as he posted on another post.....w/ tear high. going weaker fixed it so i went a bought a dozen arrows.....we will see how it goes i am almost afraid to shoot it for fear that it will get off again. if you are having a high tear read what leadworks posted. i was having alot of the same issues as he and what he is saying is right. too bad i didnt read his post closer. i figured out just about everything he typed by trial and error when it was right there in front of me.


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## JLB (Jan 8, 2005)

*can relate*

I had some problems with my 05 ultratec setup with a trophy ridge dropzone. It would be fine for a while, then things would fall apart. Finally I got rid of the dropaway, and went to an NAP Quicktune 3000, and have had no more problems in the last two years. Also put on winners choice strings and cables. I am no expert, but with some help from others, and making those changes I have gotten along much better. I seriously doubt that it is the bow. I think on hoyt it is pretty much standard to have the rest 3/4 away from the riser. That is about the extent of my humble knowledge.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

well.....i sighted it in on sat morning. everything went ok except for the 20 and 30 yard pins being twice as far (3/8") apart as my 50 and 60 yard pins. this meant to me that my arrow must have been dropping alot between 20 and 30 yards and then leveling out after about 30 yards. took it hunting that evening thinking everything should be ok. had a really nice 8 pointer walk out in front of me at about 27 yards. shot and missed.......***!!! how could i miss a 27 yard shot when i was shooting about 4" groups earlier that day at 30 yards. so shot the bow again this afternoon. somehow my bow changed and was shooting completely different. no longer was sighted in. i believe i shot over the deer. did not hit it. no blood on arrow or snow. i resighted it in today and now my 20 and 30 yard pins are much closer (3/16") so it must not be dropping as fast between 20 and 30 as it was yesterday. i am pretty sure it is not my rest as i can adjust around on it and it did not make much of a difference before. what should i do? even if it were fixed i do not think i want this bow any more.


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## JLB (Jan 8, 2005)

*chuck it*

Even if you do figure it out, it sounds like your confidence in the setup is shot. If it were me I would get rid of the whole thing and get something you can be confident in. May not be financially a good thing, but if any of the situation costs you a big trophy buck it is not worth keeping it, so chuck it and start over. Find a pro shop that can get you on the right track. Good luck.


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## shooter76 (Nov 27, 2006)

to all who might remember this thread and who tried to help me i would like to say thank you and to give you an update. i finally fixed my problem. i thought i would give hoyt another try so i bought a vectrix. setup the bow and eyeballed everything. first shots through paper were bullet holes....not perfect ones but close enough. i am almost afraid to make any fine adjustments since the vtec left such a bad taste in my mouth. i think i will call this one close enough. this thing is truly a machine!!


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