# Paper tune photos.



## BigXX78 (Mar 16, 2005)

@SonnyThomas 
Any advice for this member? I've seen your paper tuning systems...
I'd help, but I'm just a bare shaft/broadhead tuner myself.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

BigXX78 said:


> @SonnyThomas
> Any advice for this member? I've seen your paper tuning systems...
> I'd help, but I'm just a bare shaft/broadhead tuner myself.


Any advice on bareshaft tuning her? I imagine there is some good info out on the threads. Trying to find my way and work on my own gear. Only bow shop in Elko just lost their best guy and now no one is a pro.


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## BigXX78 (Mar 16, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Any advice on bareshaft tuning her? I imagine there is some good info out on the threads. Trying to find my way and work on my own gear. Only bow shop in Elko just lost their best guy and now no one is a pro.


You'll never regret going DIY and detoxing yourself from all dependency on shops.

So, I haven't used paper in years. I used to use it as a first step, that I now completely skip. I'm thinking 7 feet might be too close with paper too. I used to do 5-10 yards, but Sonny would know the best way with paper.

The way I bare shaft tune:

The first step is to anchor or weight down your target so it can't slide around or move with any shot. If possible, place your target X-ring at about shoulder height and shoot on fairly level ground. This works best with foam block targets that aren't too worn out. A bag can work, if it doesn't swing or move and if it's big enough to where the surface your hitting is all flat (rather than curving back from the center). They're not optimal, but we'll work with it, if that's what you have.

I set my centershot with my rest at 13/16" from the riser. I'll shoot a bare shaft at 10 yards, first to make sure I'm close enough to not miss the whole target at 20 yards. Assuming your bow is timed and set up pretty close, it should be staying well within a typical block target at 20.*

Next, using your best form and all field points, shoot 3 fletched arrows at the X-ring at 20. If they don't hit the X, just adjust your sight until they're all spot on, for now. Then, strip the vanes off 1 arrow (Don't worry about taping the back to compensate for lost vane weight. It doesn't matter.) So then shoot the bare shaft and see how it lands compared to fletched.

Repeat shooting your bare shaft several times to be sure it's doing that same thing consistently. Then post a photo. I, along with probably a bunch of AT folks, will help you with the next steps to tune your bow.

*If it's not, then we'll call in a shimming/yoke tuning expert.

I'm old and old school, so I've never needed to shim a bow since 1986, unless a shim was damaged and needed replacement. I started before shimming even became a thing, so I bare shaft tune by getting my nocking point, center shot, draw length, D-loop length and mostly form all (usually almost) perfect.🤣

Chances are, a lot of people will also chime in with all kinds of good advice tomorrow.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Crazy454 said:


> Pse 34 EVL, pulling 63.8 lbs, 29” draw, timing is right, qad micro adjust rest, have shims, new strings. Best way to fix this tear? Minor rest adjustments, shimming or yoke? Looks like tail slightly high and right. Shot at about 7 feet. Raise rest to fix the tail high? Shim right side to fix the right tail? Or play with yokes and adjust rest left? Lined up center shot just slightly above berger centerline and between rubber bands on my limb poundage adjustment
> 
> View attachment 7656905


The rubber band thing is a "get you in the ball park" thing. Rest set to whatever center shot is called for, even the rubber bands, I use different distances. I start with 6" and get that wonderful bullet hole. I then back up every 2 feet still wanting that bullet hole. I've backed up as far as 15 feet. I'm feeling I'm doing my best then 10 or 12 feet is far enough.

I do no shim and my bows don't have yokes to mess with  

Bullets back to 10 to 15 feet I go outside and 10 yards. Usually fletched and bare shaft arrows slap hard. My last paper tune had prefect bullet holes back to 10 feet. Outside at 10 and 15 yards fletched bare shaft arrows slapped so hard I thought they'd break. Went with 20 yards same thing. I called it good enough.

Getting a bullet hole at varying distances you can use any tuning method. I normally use the French tuning procedure - either 9 to 10 feet and 30 yards for short distance French tuning or 9 to 10 feet and 50 to 55 yards.


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## FMU_Shooter1991 (Dec 7, 2020)

Just some anecdotal advice since I just tuned my Bowtech Specialist a few days ago. First I set my center shot, center of the shaft thru the upper half of the berger holes and about 7/8" from the riser. Then I timed the cams with the top hitting 3/32" sooner (if that) than the bottom and twisted the yokes to reduce most of the cam lean. Within 2 shots I had a bullet hole thru paper then went on to walk back tune, I don't bareshaft tune much because I've never had good success with it. I wouldn't over think it too much, if your arrow flight looks good and it groups well then run it. I may also be some grip inconsistencies, I was tuning my brothers left hand Prime and I was able to shoot bullet holes repeatedly thru paper but when he shot it he was getting a slight right tear so grip and the "human" errors are a big factor.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Pse 34 EVL, pulling 63.8 lbs, 29” draw, timing is right, qad micro adjust rest, have shims, new strings. Best way to fix this tear? Minor rest adjustments, shimming or yoke? Looks like tail slightly high and right. Shot at about 7 feet. Raise rest to fix the tail high? Shim right side to fix the right tail? Or play with yokes and adjust rest left? Lined up center shot just slightly above berger centerline and between rubber bands on my limb poundage adjustment
> 
> View attachment 7656905












Repeat test with a bareshaft at 9 feet. Completely remove the vanes,
remove the base of the vane, and do NOT add electrical tape. THiS is an aerodynamics test, to see how much work the vanes are doing, so want just the arrow shaft at the back end.

Post pic of the same 3 shot test thru paper, with a bareshaft.
BUT, this time at 9 feet.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> View attachment 7657048
> 
> 
> Repeat test with a bareshaft at 9 feet. Completely remove the vanes,
> ...


Hmmm lol. Never shot bare shaft before. This looks pretty rough.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Crazy454 said:


> Hmmm lol. Never shot bare shaft before. This looks pretty rough.
> View attachment 7657092





nuts&bolts said:


> View attachment 7657048
> 
> 
> Repeat test with a bareshaft at 9 feet. Completely remove the vanes,
> ...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> View attachment 7657093


Same target, now shoot 2 fletched arrows. Need photo of all 3 arrows in target.
2 fletched and the one bareshaft.

What distance?


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Same target, now shoot 2 fletched arrows. Need photo of all 3 arrows in target.
> 2 fletched and the one bareshaft.
> 
> What distance?
> ...


9ft


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Same target, now shoot 2 fletched arrows. Need photo of all 3 arrows in target.
> 2 fletched and the one bareshaft.
> 
> What distance?
> ...


attempt 2,

felt some torque in the last round.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Crazy454 said:


> View attachment 7657093


20 yards no paper


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)




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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

1) bareshaft is hitting LEFT of the vertical masking tape line (upper left quadrant)
2) bareshaft is angled NOCK right
3) 3 fletched are all hitting below the horizontal tape line
4) 3 fletched are hitting right of the vertical tape line (lower right quadrant)

5) bareshaft impact is hitting 2-inches HIGHER than fletched arrow impact

So, we first FIX the height difference for fletched arrow impact versus bareshaft arrow impact.

Want to adjust the cam "TIMING" to get THIS result (side view camera angle).



THIS is 20 yards, two fletched and one bareshaft. GOAL is to get the bareshaft to hit INSIDE the fletched arrow group.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Anything specific on timing? Cams seemed to be hitting at exactly the same time.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So, focus on getting bareshaft to hit bag target lower, like this.










Fixing vertical miss for the bareshaft is the easier fix to do.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Anything specific on timing? Cams seemed to be hitting at exactly the same time.


Your FORM is creating the bareshaft missing high, with the cams hitting at exactly same time.
Cams hitting EXACTLY same time will get you THIS result at 20 yards, only if your FORM is solid.



With cams hitting at exact same time, and bow in SPEC, you will only get groups (2 fletched and one bareshaft)
like THIS if your form is soild.



So, if you wanna FIX your form, we can do that.

In the mean time, if you wanna just repeat your FORM at full draw,
then, we have to compensate for your FORM, by taking the cam timing "out of spec"
to get the bareshaft to hit LOWER, to get bareshaft to hit BELOW your highest impacting fletched arrow
and
to get the bareshaft to hit ABOVE your lowest impacting fletched arrow.

The goal, is after we get your cams NOT hitting at the same time,
we can tighten up the FLETCHED arrow high-low miss pattern. Ideally, getting ALL fletched arrows to hit at the SAME height, as each other, kill the HIGH-LOW miss pattern for FLETCHED arrows so all FLETCHED arrows are inside ONE arrow diameter height-wise.

Like this.



So get cams OUT of TIME, enough to compensate for your form,
so the fletched arrows and the bareshaft arrow are all hitting the 20 yd target at the EXACT SAME height.

You can try to HIT the top edge of the masking tape, with the fletched arrows and the bareshaft arrow.

BEFORE result.



AFTER result, YES, even if this means getting cams NOT hitting at the same time...



So, sight in your bow to get the FLETCHED arrows ALL hitting the top edge of the masking tape.
THEN, tweak cam timing so that the cams are NOT hitting at the same exact time, so the bareshaft ALSO hits the top edge of the masking tape.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Your FORM is creating the bareshaft missing high, with the cams hitting at exactly same time.
> Cams hitting EXACTLY same time will get you THIS result at 20 yards, only if your FORM is solid.
> 
> 
> ...


going to work on the form with the tips you gave me last thread. Man, you are pretty awesome. Definitely have passion for teaching people about archery. I appreciate all your insight.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)




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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> going to work on the form with the tips you gave me last thread. Man, you are pretty awesome. Definitely have passion for teaching people about archery. I appreciate all your insight.


Your cam timing might ONLY need 1/2 twist to have bareshaft hit a little lower.
Your FORM might need release elbow a little bit HIGHER, to have bareshaft hit a little lower.
Your FORM might only need a wrist sling and your wrist, back of hand, forearm muscles might need relax a little more to get bareshaft to hit a little lower (stop heeling grip so much).

If cannot change bow hand grip pressure, then, use some masking tape and add 1-inch long layers of masking tape
just below the arrow shelf, to increase pressure at top of grip, and bareshaft will dive down a little. When you can get barehsaft to hit a little bit lower, FLETCHED groups will tighten up as well.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Spot on with heeling grip, I have been noticing that when anticipating shots. Feel like kick up, specifically on bad shots.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Reset centershot with my caliper for 13/16th. Zeroed my pin at 20. These were shot at 10 yds. Kind of windy and 20 was pushing them left. Bae shaft split the two arrows but tail right. Have not shot through paper today because of wind. Going to try and see if I can get shots indoors at the shop.


nuts&bolts said:


> View attachment 7657539


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Reset centershot with my caliper for 13/16th. Zeroed my pin at 20. These were shot at 10 yds. Kind of windy and 20 was pushing them left. Bae shaft split the two arrows but tail right. Have not shot through paper today because of wind. Going to try and see if I can get shots indoors at the shop.
> 
> View attachment 7657695


Need that full draw, dead level arrow form photo.
Like this.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Pushed my cables right too.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Pushed my cables right too.


Pushing cable to the right should have reduced the amount the bareshaft misses left of the fletched group,
but only a little.

Need that form photo, cuz the majority of your problem is your full draw posture.

Bow hand grip technique probably also needs work/change.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Worked on neutralizing grip torque and 45 degree angle on my knuckles. Shooting much higher fletched. Masking tape behind me is leveled with 3 foot level. Runs along arrow.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)




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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Worked on neutralizing grip torque and 45 degree angle on my knuckles. Shooting much higher fletched. Masking tape behind me is leveled with 3 foot level. Runs along arrow.
> 
> 
> View attachment 7657920


Major problems with your bow arm elbow.
Major problems with the bow side wrist and knuckles (not enough rotation...nowhere close to enough).










1) elbow crease is horizontal. Elbow crease needs to be vertical.

2) bow side wrist is near vertical. Rotate bow side wrist clockwise to horizontal. IF you wear a pretend wrist watch, want the watch face horizontal, parallel to the concrete floor

3) get knuckle rotated all the way clockwise to THIS angle. You do not have near enough rotation on knuckles.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

When you rotate knuckles to an ACTUAL 45 degrees, pointer finger knuckle will go ABOVE the arrow shelf.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> When you rotate knuckles to an ACTUAL 45 degrees, pointer finger knuckle will go ABOVE the arrow shelf.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> When you rotate knuckles to an ACTUAL 45 degrees, pointer finger knuckle will go ABOVE the arrow shelf.


slow-mo snaps of release. At the very least working on these tips I am shooting darts at 20 hitting inside the 12 ring most shots with arrow damn near touching.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> slow-mo snaps of release. At the very least working on these tips I am shooting darts at 20 hitting inside the 12 ring most shots with arrow damn near touching.
> 
> View attachment 7658037
> 
> ...


Excellent work. Fast learner. Looks great.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Excellent work. Fast learner. Looks great.


So now I can work on the right nock tears ?  I have an DBLlungit shim set. Start pushing cable further right? Yoke Right twist top and bottom 
, untwist left? 

About 1 inch nock right tear with veins and 1.5 inches bare shaft. Per a users suggestion 0.02 for every inch of tear? So I was thinking get it as close to possible with yoke/cable guards and then just shim cam to right to make up the difference.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> So now I can work on the right nock tears ?  I have an DBLlungit shim set. Start pushing cable further right? Yoke Right twist top and bottom
> , untwist left?


Right nock tear.

1) you can shim the top cam to the right, so increase total width of shims on the left side, and decrease total width of shims on the right side by the same amount. Maintain total shim width on the top axle.

2) yes, if you have an adjustable cable guard, pull cables MORE to the right, will help

3) you can also bump the arrow rest to the LEFT...follow point of impact for the bareshaft...the idea is to move arrow rest left (bareshafts impacting left of fletched) so you can steer fletched to the point of impact for the bareshaft,
then, move sight windage to move new tighter fletched group to where you want


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## neutronsplitter (Feb 21, 2014)

Nice tutorial there Nuts&Bolts. Heck, I am going to try a few of these tips. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Right nock tear.
> 
> 1) you can shim the top cam to the right, so increase total width of shims on the left side, and decrease total width of shims on the right side by the same amount. Maintain total shim width on the top axle.
> 
> ...


any reason to shim just the top cam and not both evenly?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> any reason to shim just the top cam and not both evenly?


Yes. Most d-loops are CLOSER to the top axle. So, when you shim the top cam, you get MORE bang for the buck.
VERY VERY few bows have the d-loop at the EXACT center between the axles.

So, you shim the TOP cam FIRST and figure out how much you shove the top cam towards the right end of the top axle.

Maybe you make the TOP CAM left side shims 0.010 inches wider and make the right side shims 0.010 inches more narrow.
or
Maybe you make the TOP CAM left side shims 0.020 inches wider and make the right side shims 0.020 inches more narrow.
or
Maybe you make the TOP CAM left side shims 0.030 inches wider and make the right side shims 0.030 inches more narrow. 
or
Maybe you make the TOP CAM left side shims 0.032 inches wider and make the right side shims 0.032 inches more narrow.

Get the right tear (bareshaft missing LEFT of fletched) as small as you can with TOP cam shims only.

AFTER you go too far, shimming the TOP CAM over to the right, and you back up on the top cam shimming right correction...


NOW, you work on the bottom axle.
The bottom cam shimming is more a FINE TUNING adjustment,
and you figure out how much you gotta shim the BOTTOM cam to the right.

Maybe you make the BOTTOM CAM left side shims 0.010 inches wider and make the right side shims 0.010 inches more narrow.
or
Maybe you make the BOTTOM CAM left side shims 0.020 inches wider and make the right side shims 0.020 inches more narrow.

STOP shimming bottom cam to the right, when bareshafts are smacking INSIDE the fletched group.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

Try yokes/rest/cable first since those are easier things to work on?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> Try yokes/rest/cable first since those are easier things to work on?


Sure


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## WoolyWelsh (Sep 9, 2006)

JUST a reminder








nock point high or low


It looks like my fletched arrows are shooting nock low. If I shoot a bare shaft at 10 yards, will that tell me if I need to move the nock point up or down according to the angle of the bare shaft? If the nock points low, which way should I move the nock point? The spine seems fine thanks to nuts...




www.archerytalk.com






nuts&bolts said:


> Make sure you fire the bareshaft into a straw bale or a foam target.....just not a bag target. The bag target can give you a false reading.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Sure


All I know is the tips you gave me on form had me shooting better than any amount of tuning would do lol


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Crazy454 said:


> All I know is the tips you gave me on form had me shooting better than any amount of tuning would do lol


Welcome.


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## Crazy454 (7 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Welcome.


@nuts&bolts 

Third photo cp28 40 yards arrows with a 20 yd bareshaft

photo 1 and 2 evl at 20 yards with a 20 yard bareshaft


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## CagedKennels (Jan 2, 2021)

A lot of good info here. Thanks guys


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