# Unknown Dying/Dead??



## mrp (Oct 13, 2007)

No. Unknown shall remain the ultimate test.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

3D is, I think, in a transition moving from simulated hunting to target shooting. I don't know if that's a good thing, a bad thing.
ASA has seen a lot of growth over-all and some of that may be due to adding more known classes. At the same time IBO (simulated hunting) has resisted going in that direction and apparently their growth is headed in the wrong direction.

What is interesting is the fact that target archery over-all has not enjoyed any significant growth. Look at FITA and NFAA figures. I know, Vegas broke records this year, but that is an anomaly.

In any event I plan on moving to known this year. I just don't have the time or resources to become as good as necessary to compete in unknown. I think lots of people are going to known for the same reasons I am.

But, I think unknown will continue to attract shooters who enjoy that challenge. 3D is a big tent and we can all fit under it.


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## pottergreg (Mar 20, 2015)

I am comfortable shooting either one, and I do shoot both during the season. I usually shoot both during the season and shoot around even unknown and up with a rangefinder. About a 10 point spread on average for me. I always take my range finder with me while hunting. If I am not 100% sure of the exact yardage hunting, I pass up on the shot! ASA even has classes where you shoot both. I fail to see the issue, shoot the class you enjoy most!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's definitely dying, but I prefer to shoot unknown. I like the challenge of it. I think known is very boring. What's the point?

If ASA goes all unknown, I will not be shooting it and only attending IBO's.

Anywho, I hope we all have some form of archery available to us that we enjoy participating in.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

I shoot a big Tourney here in NY that is Known. Is it fun ? Yes I enjoy shooting it and I qualified for the shoot off on Sunday. Was it easy ? ABSOLUTELY !!! This is why people are moving to it in droves, we are Americans and for the most part we as a society are lazy so known is the hot class as of now. Don't believe me look at Crossbows for hunting, new companies popping up everyday. Why ? Again it is easier than shooting a bow, and a compound is easier than a recurve/stick bow. The more mechanical the weapon the less you have to practice, just set the sights and forget it. Can you win if you don't practice like you would for unknown ? Maybe not but you can be much more competitive because the hard part is done.

Scores will be higher in known and the competition will be even tougher. It will get to be like the Vegas shoot from last weekend where you have to shoot something similar to a 30X 300. So for that reason I think it will be fun and challenging and also much cheaper. How many of us own multiple 3-D targets so that we can practice shooting and most of all practice range estimation. I have 10 Rineharts for my backyard from the Fox to the monster Mulie. If I shoot known I can flog away at a 100 dollar bag and save thousands. 

What am I going to shoot ? To be honest I don't know. I shot Hunter class the past 2 years and am switching to open class equipment this year as I am 60 and if I am going to try the ASA I need to have open class equipment. I enjoy the range estimation part of it but the extra yardage at IBO shoots has me thinking I want to try the known class when I venture to Kentucky this summer, plus IBO doesn't have known so it would be different. Sorry to ramble !!!! LOL


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## sharptrenton (Jul 8, 2006)

I enjoy shooting 3-d whether it is known or unknown. Seems like in the last few years I enjoy shooting known a little more than unknown. I changed jobs a couple years ago and now I just don't have time to practice shooting and practice judging too. I think a lot of people have a similar situation as mine and shooting known is more enjoyable because you don't have the added pressure of judging too. I hope they keep both known and unknown so everyone can shoot whichever class they want and have fun.


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## rhamm (Feb 14, 2017)

If it's dying then i'll die with it. Zero fun in walking up and clicking a rangefinder on a target for me. See ya'll in Foley.


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## PLUMBER007 (Jun 27, 2008)

Known or un known... 1 still has to make the shot !


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## Marine96 (Jul 16, 2010)

PLUMBER007 said:


> Known or unknown... 1 still has to make the shot !


Very true indeed. I feel to many people forget that it's up to the shooter to make the shot regardless. Just because the distance is known doesn't mean the shooter is going to ring the target on every shot. The human factor is still in play here.

Now, what a person considers fun or not is not for me to judge. Shoot what class you want and have fun doing so. I shoot unknown in the local leagues around me. I know if there was also an option for known there would be those who choose to shoot that class. I don't knock anyone for shooting what class they want, the point that they're out shooting is what matters.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Archery has trends just like every sport. 

The transition from recurve to compound was resisted, field and indoor has flipped and 3D archery is changing from judging to shooting. 

The attendance records at Redding, OPA, and now ASA after adding known classes tell the tale. Look at two of the rising stars of archery-Houser and Marlow, both are competing in Known Pro. 

Known classes allow the field and indoor guys a venue to play in 3D, which has led to the ASA boom as well. IBO will be left behind if they don't get on board soon.

Don't fight it, change is good.


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## adventurejack (Oct 30, 2006)

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> I shoot a big Tourney here in NY that is Known. Is it fun ? Yes I enjoy shooting it and I qualified for the shoot off on Sunday. Was it easy ? ABSOLUTELY !!! This is why people are moving to it in droves, we are Americans and for the most part we as a society are lazy so known is the hot class as of now. Don't believe me look at Crossbows for hunting, new companies popping up everyday. Why ? Again it is easier than shooting a bow, and a compound is easier than a recurve/stick bow. The more mechanical the weapon the less you have to practice, just set the sights and forget it. Can you win if you don't practice like you would for unknown ? Maybe not but you can be much more competitive because the hard part is done.
> 
> Scores will be higher in known and the competition will be even tougher. It will get to be like the Vegas shoot from last weekend where you have to shoot something similar to a 30X 300. So for that reason I think it will be fun and challenging and also much cheaper. How many of us own multiple 3-D targets so that we can practice shooting and most of all practice range estimation. I have 10 Rineharts for my backyard from the Fox to the monster Mulie. If I shoot known I can flog away at a 100 dollar bag and save thousands.
> 
> What am I going to shoot ? To be honest I don't know. I shot Hunter class the past 2 years and am switching to open class equipment this year as I am 60 and if I am going to try the ASA I need to have open class equipment. I enjoy the range estimation part of it but the extra yardage at IBO shoots has me thinking I want to try the known class when I venture to Kentucky this summer, plus IBO doesn't have known so it would be different. Sorry to ramble !!!! LOL



If you didn't know, ASA has a Senior Hunter Class which is identical to Hunter class except you have to be 50+ to shoot it. Half known/Half unknown. That may fit you.


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## buckhunter08 (Nov 9, 2005)

I been out of the game for a while but have been getting back into this year. I had no idea that there was even a competing known distance class. It used to be for fun if you wanted a range finder on the course. I can see adding known distance classes to gain more appeal and generate more revenue but I wouldn't see why the unknown pro classes would not be the top choice for it is the most challenging. 3-D to me means unknown distance. I sure hope they wouldn't make all classes known distance.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have always been a unknown guy and made it to semi pro in asa, I love being dedicated and working on my 3d game. For me the road block has been not being able to afford a range, I take my range finder everywhere for the last few years. Family functions and volley ball tournaments and I go out and range trees and trash cans and rocks and shrubs etc for hours, have I enjoyed the effort. Yes. Does it irritate me that guys that can afford a 4000 dollar range have a huge advantage over me even though I am putting in as much or more time than they are. Hell yes. 

Last year I only had one weekend where I could afford to allow myself to shoot a known event and I had a good time, I told stories and talked and sit on my stool just like any other shoot and I still had a hard time seeing the 12 ring and actually aiming at it but in the end I was on a 3d course enjoying the weekend just like normal. This week I actually registered for k50 for foley which was a hard thing to do for me but it is done and my range card is ready for me and waiting. The weekend for me is going to be way freaking different, normally I show up friday morning and I head to the 3d practice range and I spend hours looking at targets and then I go do the team shoot and once it is over I spend a couple more hours looking at targets until I simply can not make myself look anymore. This weekend I get to shoot a few warm up shots and then go shoot the team shoot and then head to the steak house and relax at the motel room.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Padgett said:


> I have always been a unknown guy and made it to semi pro in asa, I love being dedicated and working on my 3d game. For me the road block has been not being able to afford a range, I take my range finder everywhere for the last few years. Family functions and volley ball tournaments and I go out and range trees and trash cans and rocks and shrubs etc for hours, have I enjoyed the effort. Yes. Does it irritate me that guys that can afford a 4000 dollar range have a huge advantage over me even though I am putting in as much or more time than they are. Hell yes.
> 
> Last year I only had one weekend where I could afford to allow myself to shoot a known event and I had a good time, I told stories and talked and sit on my stool just like any other shoot and I still had a hard time seeing the 12 ring and actually aiming at it but in the end I was on a 3d course enjoying the weekend just like normal. This week I actually registered for k50 for foley which was a hard thing to do for me but it is done and my range card is ready for me and waiting. The weekend for me is going to be way freaking different, normally I show up friday morning and I head to the 3d practice range and I spend hours looking at targets and then I go do the team shoot and once it is over I spend a couple more hours looking at targets until I simply can not make myself look anymore. This weekend I get to shoot a few warm up shots and then go shoot the team shoot and then head to the steak house and relax at the motel room.


Known 50? Not to hijack this thread, but I'd be interested in what solicited the change. Give me a call later and tell me what I'm missing! Should be there.


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## SWAG (Jul 15, 2012)

I really hope that unknown doesn't die because I have absolutely no desire to shoot known. Just isn't fun at all to me. I like the challenge of going out and judging yardage and putting in the extra work. Now everyone says they have a disadvantage of not having a range to judge or practice on. I don't have a range either but I don't feel like I'm at a tremendous disadvantage. I just have to work harder. There are all kind of objects out in the world to use to judge distance. What excuses will arise when the field shooters come to known 3d and dominate or you still just get beat? Chances are they are just putting in more work than you. Before ya know it, they will be back to 2d targets or paper.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Go ahead, commit 100% to learning how to judge without a range. 

By the way there is no field shooter on the planet that can smoke levi morgan so you can pretend that there are better 3d shooters out there if you want but I refuse to believe they just let him win thousands of dollars just because they choose to shoot some other events.


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## widnert (Feb 19, 2014)

I prefer unknown myself and plan to keep shooting that. What gets me even worse than having to choose between known and unknown is seeing the 3D target rings being colored - just like a paper target - ASA. Who ever thought that was a great idea? I know, indoor Vegas-style shooters. Might as well save the expense on the organizers of buying 3D targets and just put paper targets on bales. So annoying. Sorry for derailing the thread. Back on track .......


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

As of an hour ago per BowJunky...42 registered in Open Pro, 76 registered in Known Pro, 78 registered in Sr Pro, and 31 registered in Women's Open Pro. Personally, I'm excited about the debut of the Known Pro class and seeing who comes out on top. I'm 99.99% positive there are some guys there who just absolutely do not belong but there will be some killer scores posted. That's an argument for another day though.

Known vs Unknown arguments are about as worthless as arguing over if I'm going to eat a ribeye or rack of ribs for supper tonight. In the end, it really doesn't matter to me, I'm going to be happy either way. A bad day of shooting is better than a good day at work anyhow. But, I've changed and will be shooting K50 this year because like many others, I just don't have time to shoot and judge and I'd much rather have a strong shot than be able to look at a rubber deer and guess if he is 44.5 or 45 yards. When I go to a 3D tournament, I do judge the target before ranging it, but I am enjoying shooting 3D more than ever now that I only worry about shooting. To that end, I'm more competitive and finding myself at the top of the score sheets much more often than I was when shooting unknown too.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

jtelarkin08 said:


> I have been shooting 3d since i was 8 years old. I grew up shooting Unknown and i think it is the Pure form of 3d. That said I am now sooting Known. It is more fun and I dont have time to judge. Looking at Texas state tournouts as well as Ntl events, NO ONE is shooting Unknown.. Is it dead??
> 
> Chance B just announced he is going to Known Pro..


I don't know that I'd pronounce Unknown 3D dead just yet. I hope it never goes away and I shoot Known class though I do dabble in the unknown classes in local shoots. IBO can't be used as a barometer because long before Known classes became real popular in the ASA the IBO's attendance numbers were trending downward aggressively and ASA's numbers were trending upward. The IBO has much bigger issues than just not having Known classes. The fact that the leadership of the IBO fought to stay stagnant with the same old same old while there competition (ASA) exploded does not bode well for that organization. Unless the IBO changes management they will continue to circle the drain.



carlosii said:


> 3D is, I think, in a transition moving from simulated hunting to target shooting. I don't know if that's a good thing, a bad thing.
> ASA has seen a lot of growth over-all and some of that may be due to adding more known classes. At the same time IBO (simulated hunting) has resisted going in that direction and apparently their growth is headed in the wrong direction.
> 
> What is interesting is the fact that target archery over-all has not enjoyed any significant growth. Look at FITA and NFAA figures. I know, Vegas broke records this year, but that is an anomaly.
> ...


Sorry, but that statement is very wrong! In 2016 the NFAA Indoor National tournament set an attendance record as did the Vegas tournament. This year Vegas set another record and I expect the same for Indoor Nationals. On top of that the NFAA/WAF isn't exactly known for being proactive! They are generally many years behind how well the ASA and the LAS Classic tournaments are run. The NFAA/WAF tournaments have had serious growth in spite of the organization. Hmm, maybe the IBO can grow with their current structure and leadership if they can avoid complete collapse.

I seriously enjoyed unknown distance 3D as judging adds a lot more to the game. It makes how well you know _your _game even more important. In Known distance I just have to know my shot and how I shoot any given target. In unknown 3D I have to know my shot, know how I shoot a target AND know how I judge a particular target. Factoring 3 major components can be many times more complicated than dealing with 2 components leaving much more room for ugly errors.


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## SWAG (Jul 15, 2012)

Padgett said:


> Go ahead, commit 100% to learning how to judge without a range.
> 
> By the way there is no field shooter on the planet that can smoke levi morgan so you can pretend that there are better 3d shooters out there if you want but I refuse to believe they just let him win thousands of dollars just because they choose to shoot some other events.


Levi is without a doubt the best 3D archer ever but if he goes known his winning will slow way down. I'd say he will have one heck of a time beating Chance consistently like he has in the past. Chance has not made it a secret that he hates judging yardage and that is where Levi has the advantage in unknown. Levi is very good at judging because he works hard at it. I have read where Reo said he'd shoot 3D but he can't judge within 5 yards of distance of the target. I haven't seen Levi in the Olympics either. Most of the "don't have time to judge or don't want to get out and practice judging" is no more than laziness.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Exactly, why do people want to compete in 3D if they don't want to practice the skills it takes to be good at it.

Let's lower the net in basketball, change the football field to 25 yards, etc.

Let's face it, known yardage is not real 3D. Apparently it's too hard of a game that many don't enjoy.


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## va MTN MAN (Jan 24, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> Exactly, why do people want to compete in 3D if they don't want to practice the skills it takes to be good at it.
> 
> Let's lower the net in basketball, change the football field to 25 yards, etc.
> 
> Let's face it, known yardage is not real 3D. Apparently it's too hard of a game that many don't enjoy.


Could also be said that a lot of unknown shooters like it because bad shots can be blamed on yardage errors.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

va MTN MAN said:


> Could also be said that a lot of unknown shooters like it because bad shots can be blamed on yardage errors.


Ding, Ding, Ding, winner winner chicken dinner. When someone makes a bad shot on a known course he can't blame it on missing yardage, it's on himself. Some say there is more stress in known because since everyone knows distance there is no excuse for not getting all 12's or 11's or whatever. Who cares anyway, it's like different classes, bare bow, limited, bowhunter, male bowhunter release, open or perhaps maybe even dread I say it "traditional" Shoot what you like and what class you want. It's only a game to 99% or more of us out here.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

va MTN MAN said:


> Could also be said that a lot of unknown shooters like it because bad shots can be blamed on yardage errors.


No kidding... There is no where to hide when you know the yardage and then put your arrow over the 10 ring. Especially since all you've ever done is shoot for center 10. 

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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

BRING BACK THE 14 in Known classes!!!! 

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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> BRING BACK THE 14 in Known classes!!!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


That's something I would love to see. And...I totally agree on the "purist" who are against known 3d. I do believe quite a few would have their feelings hurt with a rangefinder in hand.


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## SWAG (Jul 15, 2012)

ILOVE3D said:


> Ding, Ding, Ding, winner winner chicken dinner. When someone makes a bad shot on a known course he can't blame it on missing yardage, it's on himself. Some say there is more stress in known because since everyone knows distance there is no excuse for not getting all 12's or 11's or whatever. Who cares anyway, it's like different classes, bare bow, limited, bowhunter, male bowhunter release, open or perhaps maybe even dread I say it "traditional" Shoot what you like and what class you want. It's only a game to 99% or more of us out here.


Is it not on himself that he misjudged the yardage? You think there won't be bad shots made in known? Levi has dominated 3D archery because he can shoot a bow and he knows how far it is. That has been his big advantage over the years. He put a lot of work into judging yardage. There are several pros that can shoot a bow as good or maybe better than he can giving they know the distance. Chance will dominate known.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

as a bowhunter who always tries to use my rangefinder when I hunt for a good kill shot,yes I like known better that way I can use my rangefinder for known 3d just like when I go bowhunting. I don`t want to make just a lucky shot or miss and lose a arrow on 3d or an animal,nor do I want to wound an animal. to me as a bowhunter its all about hunting with my bow and being prepared for a good clean bow kill.Pete53


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## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

In the senior class at foley there are 53 in the open and 120 plus in the known class.id definitely say known is the way that class of shooters are heading


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> BRING BACK THE 14 in Known classes!!!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Interesting...Remind me why they did away with it in the first place.
I know they still use it in the pro shoot downs.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

carlosii said:


> Interesting...Remind me why they did away with it in the first place.
> I know they still use it in the pro shoot downs.


Most 14's are not in the kill section, and was destroying the targets is "1" of the reasons they gave to do away with them.


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## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

735 shooters in the completely known classes. That itself must be record....


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

sagecreek said:


> Exactly, why do people want to compete in 3D if they don't want to practice the skills it takes to be good at it.
> 
> Let's lower the net in basketball, change the football field to 25 yards, etc.
> 
> Let's face it, known yardage is not real 3D. Apparently it's too hard of a game that many don't enjoy.



Well said....


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

For the future of unknown, just look at the youth. How many are learning to judge yardage? From what I observe, none of them. Known will be gone after my age and older are gone, (I'm 35 and am an unknown purist). It's sad in my opinion and a soon to be lost art.


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## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

Definitely not dead and while i wouldn't even say dying it's numbers are trending downward compared to known.

It will never be dead just like traditional, barebow, limited, etc will never be dead it just (probably) won't be considered the top class anymore. Life is change, complaining about it is like complaining about rain. You can do it but the rain won't ever pay attention.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Perhaps the numbers in unknown aren't dying, just that there are so many new shooters shooting known. Weve seen quite a bit of new shooters in our state big shoots and the known classes are some of the largest groups of people. I'd love to also see them bring back the 14 in both known and unknown. Just make it so you have to call it in either of the classes.


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

ILOVE3D said:


> Perhaps the numbers in unknown aren't dying, just that there are so many new shooters shooting known. Weve seen quite a bit of new shooters in our state big shoots and the known classes are some of the largest groups of people


I believe this is more of what we're seeing.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh my god, I had a great idea for a new 14 ring this weekend. 

The center ibo, this way you aren't tearing up the target by shooting outside the core. You have to call the 14 before taking the shot just like calling the upper 12 and once you call the 14 then you only have two choices either 14 or 5. Anywhere you hit on the target is a 5 except for the center ibo ring and it is the 14.

This way you have some serious risk at calling it but it adds some game play to a already awesome game and you aren't killing the targets.


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Oh my god, I had a great idea for a new 14 ring this weekend.
> 
> The center ibo, this way you aren't tearing up the target by shooting outside the core. You have to call the 14 before taking the shot just like calling the upper 12 and once you call the 14 then you only have two choices either 14 or 5. Anywhere you hit on the target is a 5 except for the center ibo ring and it is the 14.
> 
> This way you have some serious risk at calling it but it adds some game play to a already awesome game and you aren't killing the targets.


That's not a bad idea...then, if you change your mind, you can still take your 10 but no 12 even if you hit it. Play it along the lines of the OPA.


But, here are some real life numbers for the doom and gloomers... This is the total number of shooters for each of the top 3 divisions in men's classes at the first shoot of the year, since that's the only data available this year. This isn't perfect data because we need a larger comparison for this year, but I do believe the trends will remain consistent. 

2015	2016 2017
Open A 93 91 74
Semi Pro 66 75 73
Open Pro 57 53 40
Known 45 106 169 158
Known 50 40 112 74
Known Pro 76
Total 362 500 495


I don't believe unknown will ever go away, but I do believe we'll see a 45/55 split, no worse than 40/60. I know 2 guys, as a matter of fact, who will always shoot unknown because they believe they have a better chance of shooting 14-16 up on the weekend and winning than they do shooting 36-44 up to win in known. In the end, this game is a competition and we all are going to compete where we feel we have a better shot of being truly competitive.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

carlosii said:


> Interesting...Remind me why they did away with it in the first place.
> I know they still use it in the pro shoot downs.


This will again make some folks give me the stink eye at tournaments.......... 

Removal of the 14 - It's commonly referred to as the "Levi Effect". 

A long time ago in a place far away Levi had a poor first day. He was peer grouped in either the 3rd or 4th group on the second day. Basically the leaders did not have to worry about the kid winning yet another tournament because there were simply too many awesome archers ahead of him or so they thought. But things aren't always as they seem. On Sunday Mr. Levi destroyed a long string of 14's to come roaring back and made the shootdown! He won the tourny and the rest is history. The 14 made it so Levi is never really out of the hunt even when he's way back in the pack and that's not "fair" to the leaders. It was decided the ASA either had to do away with the 14 or have a spotter keep the leaders informed of just have fast Sir Levi was closing on them so they could attempt to counter his assault. So the 14 was taken out of play on the Pro courses because targets suffer too much structural damage.......

Seriously, having the 14 in play on a course with a couple of hundred archers shooting it with dozens shooting way up destroys some targets to the point where the entire target must be replaced doesn't seem practical. Not having the 14 in play really does take a bit away from the game but I do understand and agree with why it's not counted. I do miss the pressure of making the decision to shoot at the 14 and then making a good shot knowing a poor shot could really hurt your score.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

blade37defender said:


> I don't believe unknown will ever go away, but I do believe we'll see a 45/55 split, no worse than 40/60. I know 2 guys, as a matter of fact, who will always shoot unknown because they believe they have a better chance of shooting 14-16 up on the weekend and winning than they do shooting 36-44 up to win in known. In the end, this game is a competition and we all are going to compete where we feel we have a better shot of being truly competitive.


There's alot of truth to this statement. I was riding on the tram at Metropolis a few years ago and was chatting with a guy. He was sitting in 3rd place in Open A. He commented that he's really good at judging yards but not super accurate of a shot, so he always shoots for center and seems to "luck into" 5-6 12's each tourney. Good yardage judging can even the playing field between a good shooter and a great shooter who can't judge as well.

Every once in awhile someone like Hopkins and now Morgan come along and can do both very well. When that happens, they leave the rest behind. Known yardage takes away that variable. 

Then you have the other variable of owning targets vs not knowing the targets. I saw this first-hand a few years ago when a buddy bought a range. By studying the targets, learning where to aim, and practicing exclusively on them, he became a much better scorer. Notice I didn't say a better shot, but a better scorer.


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## rhamm (Feb 14, 2017)

To me definition of 3D is unknown. It is an overall talent that requires making the shot and judging the yardage. I also feel that that shooters switching from unknown to known are finding a reason to be lazy instead of putting in the work for the entire picture. It's easy to just walk into the back yard and just shoot your bow. To put in the work to do both is what separates the good 3D guys from the others. I think if the guys switching to known out of laziness will also find that the laziness will trickle over into their practice routine causing them to slowly become less of a shot. That is if 3D has always been your only game.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

rhamm said:


> To me definition of 3D is unknown. It is an overall talent that requires making the shot and judging the yardage. I also feel that that shooters switching from unknown to known are finding a reason to be lazy instead of putting in the work for the entire picture. It's easy to just walk into the back yard and just shoot your bow. To put in the work to do both is what separates the good 3D guys from the others. I think if the guys switching to known out of laziness will also find that the laziness will trickle over into their practice routine causing them to slowly become less of a shot. That is if 3D has always been your only game.


Be sure to let Jacob Marlow, Tim Gillingham, Chance Beaubouef, Nathan Brooks, Dave Cousins, and Donnie Thacker know how their laziness will trickle. They all left Open Pro to pursue Known Pro. :thumbs_up

Probably the most close-minded statement made yet.......


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

rhamm said:


> To me definition of 3D is unknown. It is an overall talent that requires making the shot and judging the yardage. I also feel that that shooters switching from unknown to known are finding a reason to be lazy instead of putting in the work for the entire picture. It's easy to just walk into the back yard and just shoot your bow. To put in the work to do both is what separates the good 3D guys from the others. I think if the guys switching to known out of laziness will also find that the laziness will trickle over into their practice routine causing them to slowly become less of a shot. That is if 3D has always been your only game.


Actually quite the opposite has happened for me. Since I quit worrying about guessing how far a target is and devoted that time to shooting, my shot is better than ever. 


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> BRING BACK THE 14 in Known classes!!!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


That will happen in the future. Targets get shot out to easily at the state level with so many known classes. 14 will help them keep that from happening by setting some close shots that the 12 would normally get blown out on 

Never mind. I didn't think about the fact that the 14 isn't in the replaceable core [emoji23]


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Super Senior at Foley 2016 was 61.
Super Senior at Foley 2017 was 38.

I suspect it will only get lower for the unknown numbers.


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

Senior Known at Foley had 121 shooters, only 37 shot up or even. Known may be easy for some but we will not talk about where I finished. 

I also think that the 14 rings are gone so that more people can feel better about their weekend. 14's or no 14's the same people are going to finish at the top. Without 14's the crowd may be within 12 points of the leaders. With 14's the crowd may be within 30 points. No 14's doesn't change who wins but it keeps everyone else close enough that they think they have a shot. Out of 121 shooters there is probably less than 20 people who have a real shot to win. If you go back and check scores the last couple of years your probably going to see a lot of the same names near the top at the tournaments.


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

I would bet if you took a poll of everyone who was adamantly against known, then look at their scores the majority of them wouldn't be the guys winning shoots. The fact of the matter is at the amateur level you have to be a better shooter to win at known. At unknown you can shoot center 10s and pick off some 12s while knowing guys will miss judge targets and shoot 8s and 5s. In known you can't do that. You have to shoot at every 12 and you have to hit 50% of them. 


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## SWAG (Jul 15, 2012)

rattlinman said:


> Be sure to let Jacob Marlow, Tim Gillingham, Chance Beaubouef, Nathan Brooks, Dave Cousins, and Donnie Thacker know how their laziness will trickle. They all left Open Pro to pursue Known Pro. :thumbs_up
> 
> Probably the most close-minded statement made yet.......


Chance just done an interview with Poole I believe and basically said he'd rather go fishing than practice judging yardage. Not sure fishing pays his bills but whatever. He also said he would not practice judging for IBO and just use the known ASA tourneys as his yardage practice for the IBO shoots. So, I would say it does have a lot to do with laziness, or they are trying to get away from Levi who is a human rangefinder. With todays lenses and apertures, known is nothing more than a spot shoot on a 3D target and everyone knows it.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

jimb2 said:


> Senior Known at Foley had 121 shooters, only 37 shot up or even. Known may be easy for some but we will not talk about where I finished.
> 
> I also think that the 14 rings are gone so that more people can feel better about their weekend. 14's or no 14's the same people are going to finish at the top. Without 14's the crowd may be within 12 points of the leaders. With 14's the crowd may be within 30 points. No 14's doesn't change who wins but it keeps everyone else close enough that they think they have a shot. Out of 121 shooters there is probably less than 20 people who have a real shot to win. If you go back and check scores the last couple of years your probably going to see a lot of the same names near the top at the tournaments.


Yep.......



SWAG said:


> Chance just done an interview with Poole I believe and basically said he'd rather go fishing than practice judging yardage. Not sure fishing pays his bills but whatever. He also said he would not practice judging for IBO and just use the known ASA tourneys as his yardage practice for the IBO shoots. So, I would say it does have a lot to do with laziness, or they are trying to get away from Levi who is a human rangefinder. With todays lenses and apertures, known is nothing more than a spot shoot on a 3D target and everyone knows it.



Laziness or a life choice that you don't agree with? I can about guarantee there are people out there that have similar belief except they believe going to archery tournaments rather than working is being "lazy". What if I said any 3D'er that doesn't shoot spots competitively is lazy and scared of being out shot? There are a bunch of us that enjoy hunting and often put it ahead of archery practice! A lot of the world's best archers could very well feel this way.

Are Dan McCartney and Levi continuing to shoot unknown distance 3D because they aren't confident that they can beat the Known distance guys? I don't think so!!!!

Folks complaining about Know distance 3D reminds of all the whining field archers did and do as 3D very quickly became more popular than field archery. They were pouting because _their_game was no longer the big draw.

If there was a Senior Known Pro class I'd be competing in it. I'm certain there will be one day it's just of when. Senior Known is drawing 120+ in only it's 3rd season. I can only hope I still see well enough to be at least somewhat competitive.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

SWAG said:


> ... With todays lenses and apertures, known is nothing more than a spot shoot on a 3D target and everyone knows it.


Yep, on expensive targets, and not much glory in it.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It is a game, we have the 100 yard dash and we have marathons and tons of different distances between. You pick the one that you have some talent for and you go play the stinking game. The minute that the marathon runner tells Mr. Bolt that his world records mean nothing because you are only running 100 meters and I ran 26 miles and my gold medal means way more than your gold medal you are a freaking idiot. 

In the last year I have won many tournaments and one of them was a known one and it felt just like the unknown ones. I had a good time on the course and at the end of the day you add up your 12's and see where you finish. It is a game.


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

sagecreek said:


> Yep, on expensive targets, and not much glory in it.


Not sure I would say that. If there wasn't much glory in it you wouldn't see the best in the world showing up to shoot 


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

jtelarkin08 said:


> Not sure I would say that. If there wasn't much glory in it you wouldn't see the best in the world showing up to shoot
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think there is money in it, that is why they are showing up to shoot. They are great shots, no doubt about it, but I put my respect in the man that can judge it and hit a 12 at 48 yards. That's just me though. BTW, I'm all for growing the sport, and unknown is doing that.


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## SWAG (Jul 15, 2012)

Padgett said:


> It is a game, we have the 100 yard dash and we have marathons and tons of different distances between. You pick the one that you have some talent for and you go play the stinking game. The minute that the marathon runner tells Mr. Bolt that his world records mean nothing because you are only running 100 meters and I ran 26 miles and my gold medal means way more than your gold medal you are a freaking idiot.
> 
> In the last year I have won many tournaments and one of them was a known one and it felt just like the unknown ones. I had a good time on the course and at the end of the day you add up your 12's and see where you finish. It is a game.


I would hope you have won a few tournaments because you are definitely proud of yourself.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a proud man to win my share of local stuff and I have never won anything at the national level. 

I shot k50 this weekend and had to call the asa and ask permission to leave semi pro to drop down to k50, I actually don't think it is a drop down but they don't offer a semi pro known class yet. 

My buddy Jason Dickey who I trade winning local stuff every year just won into semi pro and he shot the same two courses that I did this weekend and I only shot 4 down because I struggled and he shot them unknown and shot 15 up and took second in his first semi pro shoot. Both of us are good shooters but again until you get it in your head that both classes are a game to be played you will simply never get it.


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## FingershooterTX (Sep 28, 2008)

Maybe I am completely lost on the facts but, I just started going to a few indoor shoots this year and they seem to draw pretty good crowds. So much so that you cannot get on a line. I think the SYWAT Texas Championship this weekend has spots for 432 shooters. I would imagine that is more than our ASA State Championship. 

My point is that if what is keeping these folks indoors judging yardage then bring them on out to the 3d world and give them an avenue to compete. The more the better. I know JT on here and he is an amazing 3D archer or just archer in general. I myself suck so I shoot where I can have the most enjoyment and that is anywhere I do not have to judge yardage!


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## dorkbuck33 (Sep 12, 2011)

Kind of strange around this area , I have not been to a marked range - local club shoots . A few say you can use a range finder and some say no way . I think I would like to try a marked course just for simplicity reasons and see how I fair . Like as mentioned earlier , you still have to make the shots . Building your skills at judging yds. is important regardless.


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Padgett said:


> I am a proud man to win my share of local stuff and I have never won anything at the national level.
> 
> I shot k50 this weekend and had to call the asa and ask permission to leave semi pro to drop down to k50, I actually don't think it is a drop down but they don't offer a semi pro known class yet.
> 
> My buddy Jason Dickey who I trade winning local stuff every year just won into semi pro and he shot the same two courses that I did this weekend and I only shot 4 down because I struggled and he shot them unknown and shot 15 up and took second in his first semi pro shoot. Both of us are good shooters but again until you get it in your head that both classes are a game to be played you will simply never get it.


This is what I have said since known got popular. You have to be a better shooter to compete in known. It's easy to shoot center 10 all day and catch a few 12. But when your aiming st the 12 it's easy to miss and drop points. 


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Um, no. We aim at every 12 ring dead on all day long in semi pro. We don't aim at the center of the ibo and just shoot. Actually we have found that we are able to say in the 10 ring better doing it this way because out brain is programed to add a little extra yardage to stay safe.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The only time this method screws us shooting unknown is when they stick a 51.5 yard target out there on our 50 yard max course. We got some nickles back when we would see a max distance target that could be 50-48 so we would put 50 on it and aim directly at the 12 ring and hit out the bottom so now we allow our max distance to be 51.5 and still aim at the 12 ring on them.


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## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

what the hell does it matter,go shoot whatever makes you feel good and have fun doing it.your still shooting your bow in either class aren't you


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

hoosierredneck said:


> what the hell does it matter,go shoot whatever makes you feel good and have fun doing it.your still shooting your bow in either class aren't you


BINGO!!! Do what makes you happy whether its known, unknown, using an umbrella, wearing a "shooters shirt" etc. Too many people caught up in worrying about others doing something they don't like.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Quick question, how much of the strategy part of the game (the reason for the high/low 12 rings and 14) is now gone with the known classes?


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

I think it would come into play just because the arrows are as big around as African Big5 rounds . Levi installed some common sense in allowable arrow dia and marked target with his OPA deal, he should have just brought the range back to Unknown 50-55 yds max.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Topper1018 said:


> Dude really? Probably a good thing you retired from your pro career in the Hunter class. The sport of 3d will do just fine without your attitude souring the ranks.
> 
> I really can't beleive how many cranks have something crammed up there against known distance, don't think I ever met a known shooter as against unknown as some of these guys are against known. It's ludicrous.



It really has nothing to do with the unknown shooter against the known shooter.... What most known shooters are failing to realize the "Unknown" is dying because newer shooters opt for the easy way out....It will kill it within 5 or so years but, I believe it will come full circle. After so many years of amateur knowns being bumped to Pro Known, they'll realize their odds of winning is better if they learn how to judge and put their shooting skills to use in the Unknown world. Most people want to WIN, so they can only endure so much losing.. Just look at the Unknown Pros that switched at Foley.. Several still didn't win...It will always be the "best" that wins regardless. You just have to play the odds of which class might have a chance in. For ASA, there should be a move up rule from Known Pro to Unknown Pro which is considered the "Pentacle" of 3D and how 3d started.... The most Cash Contingency should always be in the Unknown Pro division, so it could give everyone to strive forward to and keep both Known and Unknown classes alive.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

WOW! I've never been around so many men outright whining like spoiled brats! 




sagecreek said:


> Yep, on expensive targets, and not much glory in it.





sagecreek said:


> I think there is money in it, that is why they are showing up to shoot. They are great shots, no doubt about it, but I put my respect in the man that can judge it and hit a 12 at 48 yards. That's just me though. BTW, I'm all for growing the sport, and unknown is doing that.


Seriously? The fact of the matter is there is zero _real _glory in winning any archery class especially an amateur class. If you work hard at something and succeed then I believe you should feel good. It doesn't matter if it's a spelling bee, soap box derby racing, wood cutting, the MMA, programming or the Special Olympics doing very well is VERY GOOD! Winning by luck is great fun but succeeding through hard work and effort is very satisfying.



Padgett said:


> Um, no. We aim at every 12 ring dead on all day long in semi pro. We don't aim at the center of the ibo and just shoot. Actually we have found that we are able to say in the 10 ring better doing it this way because out brain is programed to add a little extra yardage to stay safe.


It seems to me that by subconsciously adding yardage means that if you are having a real good day shooting you will hit few 12's? I found out the hard way. We were London, KY and I was shooting Hunter class. I missed 5 straight 12's by a frog hair at 1 or 11 o'clock. I shot 6 up on the last 5 targets by NOT adding any yardage. If you are truly "ON" playing mind games with yourself will leave points on the course. I firmly believe the guys that have become consistently good at finishing at the top of higher classes (winning out of Open A AND Semi-Pro) and contending in Pro classes are _not _doing this. I know this "add some" and shoot right at the 12 was a thing some time back when only the low 12 was in play. But now with the upper 12 being called into play as needed your just fooling your self if you think you'll make it to the top consistently adding some yardage. Playing "mind games" with your self can only go so far. At the highest levels the arrow must hit behind the pin and you must choose where to aim doing anything else relies too much on pure luck.


It's pretty obvious what you purchased on that aisle in Wal-Mart and why! You should have grabbed a bottle of Midol while you were there getting tampons and disposable razors for shaving your legs.

I hate to tell you this but most of us know that winning a state championship is NOT necessarily a big deal for a lot of archers and I'm being nice by saying that. However, I do know that some of the best Hunter class guys can quickly be a top shelf Open A guy! You haven't participated in 3D in 2 years and you give us a bunch of childish crap?!?! You might to make another lap around Wal-Mart..........................



Supermag1 said:


> Quick question, how much of the strategy part of the game (the reason for the high/low 12 rings and 14) is now gone with the known classes?





3dbowmaster said:


> It really has nothing to do with the unknown shooter against the known shooter.... What most known shooters are failing to realize the "Unknown" is dying because newer shooters opt for the easy way out....It will kill it within 5 or so years but, I believe it will come full circle. After so many years of amateur knowns being bumped to Pro Known, they'll realize their odds of winning is better if they learn how to judge and put their shooting skills to use in the Unknown world. Most people want to WIN, so they can only endure so much losing.. Just look at the Unknown Pros that switched at Foley.. Several still didn't win...It will always be the "best" that wins regardless. You just have to play the odds of which class might have a chance in. For ASA, there should be a move up rule from Known Pro to Unknown Pro which is considered the "Pentacle" of 3D and how 3d started.... The most Cash Contingency should always be in the Unknown Pro division, so it could give everyone to strive forward to and keep both Known and Unknown classes alive.


To a certain extent I agree it will come full circle but I think Known distance classes will remain very popular for the foreseeable future basically for as long as people shoot any 3D.

As for the contingency money....... For the most part you can't force businesses to put _their _marketing money into less popular venues or markets (classes). It doesn't matter if it's archery or car racing. You can use political correctness to leverage businesses to support less popular classes to some degree and we see that frequently. The IBO can't command the same money as the ASA can and even though the IBO was created before the ASA it is the IBO that now has to avoid conflicts with the ASA. If I'm going to pay a $1,000 to hang a banner at a venue I will choose the one that has a larger audience.


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Supermag1 said:


> Quick question, how much of the strategy part of the game (the reason for the high/low 12 rings and 14) is now gone with the known classes?


That all depends on the shooter. Known makes you call way more uppers because the lower gets crowded. Also I find myself aiming away from the 12 and adding and subtracting yards more with known. If there is a good aiming spot right below the upper. Add a yard or two and aim at it. There is still plenty of strategy. 


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

That was a great post by Kstigall, it showed the game play that he uses to be competitive. I shot 3d for years and had no game plan at all and then I finally got a very strong semi pro shooter in my group and he started teaching me his game plan and it allowed me to grow as a 3d shooter. There are different approaches to shooting a unknown course and I have used both of mine to be competitive. 

I am actually looking forward to shooting my local events known and also the asa nationals known and getting a feel for what game plan that I want to use, right now I really don't have a specific one that I can lean on and trust. I have a few fundamental things that I feel strongly about but I haven't shot enough of them to put things together.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

jtelarkin08 said:


> That all depends on the shooter. Known makes you call way more uppers because the lower gets crowded. Also I find myself aiming away from the 12 and adding and subtracting yards more with known. If there is a good aiming spot right below the upper. Add a yard or two and aim at it. There is still plenty of strategy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do this unknown as well. Easier to aim at a nock, mark, hole etc than it is to float around an "area"


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Padgett said:


> That was a great post by Kstigall, it showed the game play that he uses to be competitive. I shot 3d for years and had no game plan at all and then I finally got a very strong semi pro shooter in my group and he started teaching me his game plan and it allowed me to grow as a 3d shooter. There are different approaches to shooting a unknown course and I have used both of mine to be competitive.
> 
> I am actually looking forward to shooting my local events known and also the asa nationals known and getting a feel for what game plan that I want to use, right now I really don't have a specific one that I can lean on and trust. I have a few fundamental things that I feel strongly about but I haven't shot enough of them to put things together.


Whether it's known or unknown distance 3D you have got to truly know your shot so you can leverage your strengths and minimize the impact your weaknesses have on your score. You have to know ALL your tendencies whether it's judging distance to a certain animal or shooting low on up hill target. Gary Studt shoots ALL upper 12's unless he calls otherwise.

Back when the 14 was in play it was even more critical to know when to go and when not to go. I have aimed hard at fairly short distance 14's and 12's only to let down and change my mind about where I would aim. I remember some years back in Culman in K45 I was first up on a Corsican ram that was right 43.5 yards and without consciously thinking about it I drilled the 14. The 14 on the Corsican was big, the sun was shining on it so I could easily see it and when I anchored the pin froze in the middle of the ring and the shot simply broke without thought.

On the first target at the 2015 Classic I was was number one in the first peer group. I lead off on the first target (medium deer) which was about 42 yards. I chose to aim center 10 because I was not holding well at all.......I pin wheeled the 12. On target #2 I aimed at and drilled the 12 on javelina and the nerves calmed right down!


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## mpgavin87 (Oct 21, 2011)

jtelarkin08 said:


> I have been shooting 3d since i was 8 years old. I grew up shooting Unknown and i think it is the Pure form of 3d. That said I am now sooting Known. It is more fun and I dont have time to judge. Looking at Texas state tournouts as well as Ntl events, NO ONE is shooting Unknown.. Is it dead??
> 
> Chance B just announced he is going to Known Pro..


Just started shooting 3D and so far all I have shot is unknown. Love the challenge! Have gotten to where I'll wander aimlessly around the yard shooting at my block from different distances then checking them with my range finder to train myself to judge better


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

LMAO Kstigall, Who said winning anything ASA was a big deal? I was just pointed Ive been there , done that. By the way that's not a girl you kissed, the one eye and turtle neck didn't tip you off?


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

Pro 3D known?!?!?!? un freakin believable! I shot my 1st 3D in 1990 or 91? There were Fingers compound and release compound classes back then because 40-44" ata bows were common. 3D is Unknown. 

If you asked me to describe 3D 10 years ago I would have said" Its primarily a Bow hunter Sport that simulates Hunting in a tournament environment where lifelike 3D animals with scoring rings the same color as the animal which makes them more difficult to see and the Archers skill is tested by calculating range with the inherent rainbow trajectory of the bow and arrow from 20 to 40yds and up to 50 yards depending on class to get into the scoring rings". 

If you asked me today to describe 3D , I would say" You know that feeling you get when you go to Walmart to pick up some disposable razors or some roll-on deodorant and you end up in the Aisle with Tampons on the left and Douche nozzles on the right, that's it."

Ive shot NFAA Field, indoor , ASA 3D and Ive shot some rifle pistol, shotgun and rimfire competition. No fire arm weapon has the short range trajectory issues as the Bow. The sport of 3D was designed to build up those critical Archers skills. 


Having 3D ''known distance" falls into the same categories as calling illegal aliens " undocumented immigrants" , its like making the NFL making NFL stadiums add a 3rd bathroom for trannies. Participation medals for every competitor . It ain't right. 

Now 3D Pro known? If the range is known its field archery on 3D targets. Dave Cousins proved it. Ok, so you got a $80 Delta 3D river bottom buck 30 yds out,your shooting 3D right? 

I stopped shooting 3D in 2015 after winning a state Hunter class title. One of the things about all shooting sports is the comradery. Your sitting behind your pickup in the parking lot having a snack between rounds and you start to chat with the folks parked next to you and you start to talk and once they mention they're shooting "K " , the smooth styling's of Cal Crooner from the spoof " Super-Hero " Movie automatically pops in the back of my head and the comradery is over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WltdNExOO6k

Here is a 15 minute link that I think touches on the problem if you got the time , I thought it was interesting and applies to life as well as the pathetic evolution of the 3D sport.

I believe the path of Unknown marked, with black and brown animal score zones were outlined in white and white targets outlined in black would have been a much more logical, righteous and "stand up to pee" path for the ASA to have gone down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hER0Qp6QJNU

To sum it up short and sweet.......K is Gay


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> LMAO Kstigall, Who said winning anything ASA was a big deal? I was just pointed Ive been there , done that. By the way that's not a girl you kissed, the one eye and turtle neck didn't tip you off?


And I'm saying, NO you have not been there and done that! Winning a state championship is in no way shape or form similar to or equivalent to a national tournament win in ANY class....... novice, known or unknown. Unless of course your measuring stick is heavily skewed which I expect it is!


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

I understand , unless your a National Champion , how could you know anything about the subject of Archery? National Novice Champ, LMAO, sand bag much? My comments are so blasphemous, they keep getting erased here.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> I understand , unless your a National Champion , how could you know anything about the subject of Archery? National Novice Champ, LMAO, sand bag much? My comments are so blasphemous, they keep getting erased here.


I'm fairly certain your comments are getting erased because you are not nearly as sharp as you think you are....... In your mind you may be an expert on "archery" but your awareness of all that is involved in having a viable and thriving organization/business like the ASA is minimal at the very best.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> To a certain extent I agree it will come full circle but I think Known distance classes will remain very popular for the foreseeable future basically for as long as people shoot any 3D.
> 
> As for the contingency money....... For the most part you can't force businesses to put _their _marketing money into less popular venues or markets (classes). It doesn't matter if it's archery or car racing. You can use political correctness to leverage businesses to support less popular classes to some degree and we see that frequently. The IBO can't command the same money as the ASA can and even though the IBO was created before the ASA it is the IBO that now has to avoid conflicts with the ASA. If I'm going to pay a $1,000 to hang a banner at a venue I will choose the one that has a larger audience.


IBO doesn't want known yardage classes because they know they will have to take the time to structure them with payouts and move up lists, ect. The known classes will also take many shooters from HC's and those classes with their inflated entry fee and no payouts are the IBO's #1 cash cow.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

loujo61 said:


> IBO doesn't want known yardage classes because they know they will have to take the time to structure them with payouts and move up lists, ect. The known classes will also take many shooters from HC's and those classes with their inflated entry fee and no payouts are the IBO's #1 cash cow.


does not matter if IBO doesn`t want KNOWN 3d ,if IBO wants to survive IBO will have to change,for now and maybe for a long time KNOWN 3d will be the cash cow for all.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Anyone else read Jack Wallace's Facebook post about this?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Pete53 said:


> does not matter if IBO doesn`t want KNOWN 3d ,if IBO wants to survive IBO will have to change,for now and maybe for a long time KNOWN 3d will be the cash cow for all.


Everyone that I know brings a range finder with them to their tree stand. I shoot hunter and advanced hunter (IBO) because I can't judge yardage good enough to back up beyond 40 yards. I like shooting my hunting rig, never could get into the long rods and scopes, but I would love to see a 50 yard max known yardage hunter class in the IBO. When we shoot the local shoots I see lots of guys shooting from the top gun stakes with their range finders and hunting rigs, IMO most bow hunters aren't willing to put the time in that it takes to judge targets in the unknown yardage classes... so why not offer a known yardage class that would appeal to them?


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

IBO isn't dead YET but not far from it just look at the numbers compared to the ASA, won't be long & probably will be. Like said above every body has a range finder in there pocket & they don't have the time to waste trying to learn to judge yardage. Life is just to busy.


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> I understand , unless your a National Champion , how could you know anything about the subject of Archery? National Novice Champ, LMAO, sand bag much? My comments are so blasphemous, they keep getting erased here.


Well I'm no pro but no matter what class you shoot from novice to pro to win in the Asa you will have to shoot your butt off to win one of them no matter if you have to judge or not to shoot 40+ up you have to be good


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## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

Pete53 said:


> does not matter if IBO doesn`t want KNOWN 3d ,if IBO wants to survive IBO will have to change,for now and maybe for a long time KNOWN 3d will be the cash cow for all.


You about nailed that one right!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Supermag1 said:


> Anyone else read Jack Wallace's Facebook post about this?


Yes, good read.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Pete53 said:


> does not matter if IBO doesn`t want KNOWN 3d ,if IBO wants to survive IBO will have to change,for now and maybe for a long time KNOWN 3d will be the cash cow for all.



Actually, hundreds of people have been saying this for yearsssssssss!!!!!!!! KNOWN has nothing to do with the IBO dying, it may stop them from growing but the real reason IBO has less in attendance is the "Payout"


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Supermag1 said:


> Anyone else read Jack Wallace's Facebook post about this?


Yep really good read. 


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

NYS REP said:


> 735 shooters in the completely known classes. That itself must be record....


The IBO would double their numbers LOL


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

3d pinwheeler said:


> the ibo would double their numbers lol


agreed x2


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## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

So what your saying Pete , is its better for the owners of the for profit shooting league to make more money where you cant swing a 30" stabilizer 360 degrees without taking out the group to your immediate left, right and behind you than have a quality experience where you actually have 10 or so yards between groups?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Mathew Lyman said:


> So what your saying Pete , is its better for the owners of the for profit shooting league to make more money where you cant swing a 30" stabilizer 360 degrees without taking out the group to your immediate left, right and behind you than have a quality experience where you actually have 10 or so yards between groups?


all clubs rather its a small local archery group or a national big archery cub they all want to make money when they put on a 3d archery tournament and if" known" makes more money than "unknown" why would any club not want the extra money "?",its only common sense,it does not matter what someone feels is the right way in 3d,> its always about the MONEY !


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Money talks. lain: I agree


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Mathew Lyman said:


> So what your saying Pete , is its better for the owners of the for profit shooting league to make more money where you cant swing a 30" stabilizer 360 degrees without taking out the group to your immediate left, right and behind you than have a quality experience where you actually have 10 or so yards between groups?


I have placed very well in the National IBO's. ..Haven't shot them for a few years..mainly fed up with their antics and my son has been playing baseball I have no time to practice shooting let alone judging between work, games and practices. Who doesn't use a rangefinder hunting? It's a Bowhunting org they should've come up with known classes way before ASA but they think backwards not forwards.
How many IBO board members do you think go bow hunting without a rangefinder???? Maybe they should do a poll. 10 guys want a Pro Hunter class they put it in the next year no questions asked. Hundereds wanted known classes.... nope can do it we're a bowhunting org lmao


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

also as a real true life bowhunter of 50 years and many years of game harvested for my freezer ,I won`t shoot anymore unknown,i like using my range finder and will never hunt without a rangefinder while bowhunting ,I want to always make the best shot I can to harvest and/or kill the animal I am shooting at ,I enjoy cooking and eating wild game I have tagged while bowhunting ,for me its a pride thing to bowhunt and harvest my own meat to eat with my family.that`s why I prefer known 3d its practice for my bowhunts out west and in my home state in northern Minnesota . my trophies I receive is seeing my family enjoying a meal of wild game I harvested with my bow.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I have placed very well in the National IBO's. ..Haven't shot them for a few years..mainly fed up with their antics and my son has been playing baseball I have no time to practice shooting let alone judging between work, games and practices. Who doesn't use a rangefinder hunting? It's a Bowhunting org they should've come up with known classes way before ASA but they think backwards not forwards.
> How many IBO board members do you think go bow hunting without a rangefinder???? Maybe they should do a poll. 10 guys want a Pro Hunter class they put it in the next year no questions asked. Hundereds wanted known classes.... nope can do it we're a bowhunting org lmao


Exactly! Collectively the IBO leadership has failed and should be replaced, rebuilt or shoved aside. They have let the IBO spiral down the drain into only a shadow of what it once was all because the leadership failed. It IS that simple! For over a decade the IBO major tournament participation has been shrinking all the while the ASA has grown greatly. ASA attendance at some of their tournaments have almost doubled in the last 3 or so years. Vendor attendance at IBO shoots have shrunk greatly while the vendor attendance at ASA shoots is very strong. 

If one day Known distance classes shrink I bet Mike T. and the ASA will adapt their product to draw customers and continue to thrive. The IBO just simply froze in their tracks unable to perform. Obviously the IBO does not have the right people leading the way or it wouldn't _still _be shrinking as it has been for at least a decade.

I am fortunate in that I am able to travel to ASA tournaments. I haven't shot an IBO tournament at any level in many years now even though they are much more accessible to me.

It angers me when a few peoples ignorance and egos keep such a large number of folks from enjoying archery like so many of us do! Literally a handful of stagnant and dull people keep _thousands _of archers from having a much better tournament archery experience. Sure change may cause some long time customers to go away but it would bring in many, many more happy customers! If you live in IBO country think about that........


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

Pro unknown here... I admire an archer who has invested the time and patience to perfect his yardage judging skills unaided.
So no one has time and patience any more...
So what's next, a Hooter Shooter with built in RF class...
I know, a Drone with Go Pro and laser guided arrows class...


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

robinofthehood said:


> Pro unknown here... I admire an archer who has invested the time and patience to perfect his yardage judging skills unaided.
> So no one has time and patience any more...
> So what's next, a Hooter Shooter with built in RF class...
> I know, a Drone with Go Pro and laser guided arrows class...


I didn't hear anyone say they wanted to do away with unknown... I have respect for the archers that can judge and respect for the ones that can't or don't want to.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

robinofthehood said:


> Pro unknown here... I admire an archer who has invested the time and patience to perfect his yardage judging skills unaided.
> So no one has time and patience any more...
> So what's next, a Hooter Shooter with built in RF class...
> I know, a Drone with Go Pro and laser guided arrows class...


I also respect the spot shooters traveling the globe shooting their game, or the dads working 2 jobs to support a family and maybe enjoy their hobby a bit more, or the guy who's eyes change and just loses their numbers, or just simply the guy that wants to use a rangefinder as they do while hunting. Every one of those folks strive to be their best with what time they may have to invest in their game. 
Known distance and I will go as far as to say marked spots allow the best shooter, or the one who makes the least amount of errors, for that given weekend to end up on top. If you think most of the top shooters in all disciplines don't realize this then I say you need to study what Levi's OPA is doing. I would suspect he was smart enough to get the input from his peers as to what they would like to see in a level tournament format..
Quite simply it is just a different game played on the same field and can be played at the same time.. No one's trying to steal anyone's cookies, there is plenty of room for both to play their game..


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## Jollyarcher (Feb 8, 2010)

Known / Unknown... options can be good things.
It looks as if many of you still have several locations at which to shoot.
I can recall making it to 3 events on any given Saturday when I started in the mid 90's.
All the clubs were well within a 30 mile radius, opened early (0700) and ended when the sun set.

Now, years later, you'll be fortunate if you can make it to just 1, based on driving location alone.
The plentiful shoots and well staffed clubs that once were simply aren't anymore.
Organized shoots in Central PA have sadly dried up and blown away.
Known / Unknown... I'd happily take either one.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

robinofthehood said:


> Pro unknown here... I admire an archer who has invested the time and patience to perfect his yardage judging skills unaided.
> So no one has time and patience any more...
> So what's next, a Hooter Shooter with built in RF class...
> I know, a Drone with Go Pro and laser guided arrows class...


Sounds like something an NFAA field archer in the '70's would have said about compounds........ or release aids.....or 3D! By the way, I also admire an archer that can judge yardage with a fairly high level of accuracy.



hrtlnd164 said:


> I also respect the spot shooters traveling the globe shooting their game, or the dads working 2 jobs to support a family and maybe enjoy their hobby a bit more, or the guy who's eyes change and just loses their numbers, or just simply the guy that wants to use a rangefinder as they do while hunting. Every one of those folks strive to be their best with what time they may have to invest in their game.
> Known distance and I will go as far as to say marked spots allow the best shooter, or the one who makes the least amount of errors, for that given weekend to end up on top. If you think most of the top shooters in all disciplines don't realize this then I say you need to study what Levi's OPA is doing. I would suspect he was smart enough to get the input from his peers as to what they would like to see in a level tournament format..
> Quite simply it is just a different game played on the same field and can be played at the same time.. No one's trying to steal anyone's cookies, there is plenty of room for both to play their game..


EXACTLY!



Jollyarcher said:


> Known / Unknown... options can be good things.
> It looks as if many of you still have several locations at which to shoot.
> I can recall making it to 3 events on any given Saturday when I started in the mid 90's.
> All the clubs were well within a 30 mile radius, opened early (0700) and ended when the sun set.
> ...


EXACTLY!


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Well I made the decision today that i am transitioning back to Unknown. I have been shooting K45 all this year here in Texas and being very competitive but i dont see myself ever making a podium in Known Pro. So I am jumping over to B for the rest of this season and Im gonna shoot A or Semi Next year depending on how well i re adapt to judging.


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

jtelarkin08 said:


> Well I made the decision today that i am transitioning back to Unknown. I have been shooting K45 all this year here in Texas and being very competitive but i dont see myself ever making a podium in Known Pro. So I am jumping over to B for the rest of this season and Im gonna shoot A or Semi Next year depending on how well i re adapt to judging.


I believe you'll start seeing more of this as some of those who jumped to known discover that it's much harder to win there than it was in unknown. A couple butt whippings and slices of humble pie will change things up again.


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

blade37defender said:


> I believe you'll start seeing more of this as some of those who jumped to known discover that it's much harder to win there than it was in unknown. A couple butt whippings and slices of humble pie will change things up again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yep. I shot +28 up on the last 20 targets of our Texas ASA qualifier this weekend and 32 up total and got blown out by someone shooting 40 up. I could have shot 40 if i wouldn't have sucked and shot 4 up the first 10 targets but I just know If i ever want to shoot a pro class, which is the goal in the next few years, i need to be shooting Unknown. Dont get me wrong I have won a few shoots and am sitting second in SOY in Texas but I just dont see myself shooting against the best in the world when you give them the number.


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## tdmarks66 (Jul 6, 2016)

I really like the IBO format I hope to see it bring bigger numbers again !


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

don't see the IBO making a big come back.


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## tdmarks66 (Jul 6, 2016)

me neither but I can always hope ! the ASA is not very active here in Pa.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

jtelarkin08 said:


> Yep. I shot +28 up on the last 20 targets of our Texas ASA qualifier this weekend and 32 up total and got blown out by someone shooting 40 up. I could have shot 40 if i wouldn't have sucked and shot 4 up the first 10 targets but I just know If i ever want to shoot a pro class, which is the goal in the next few years, i need to be shooting Unknown. Dont get me wrong I have won a few shoots and am sitting second in SOY in Texas but I just dont see myself shooting against the best in the world when you give them the number.


so +28 on half and +4 on the other and only 8 pts. out of 1st? sounds like you were right there, you just need to put two good rounds together and if you were +24 on half then you know you're capable.


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

nochance said:


> so +28 on half and +4 on the other and only 8 pts. out of 1st? sounds like you were right there, you just need to put two good rounds together and if you were +24 on half then you know you're capable.


Oh I'm plenty capable. K45 is just silly right now. I really think k50 is a easier class at the moment 


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