# My 180fps Hex7 Covert Hunter



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I was questioned in another thread regarding the claim "Titled" above where the respondent questioned it as though it may have been a typo citing he'd think I'd achieve a greater velocity than that as opposed too the pedigree of the bow where here?...I will address that as follows....

This is a 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter...a draw weight that for me smacks more of a Hunting/3D rig than a shoot it all day long dot bow.

While for many?...the first thought that hits their mind when Hex7 series limbs are mentioned is probably "Speed" where the first thing they'd do is concoct an arrow of a weight very near the lightest recommended in search of?..."speed"....where the first word that hits my mind concerning Hex7 series limbs is "Power"....as it is my belief that "Power" is the primary inherent virtue of such limbs...more so than..."speed"....so?.....leave it to me to be the proud owner of a slow Covert Hunter! LOL!....and now I'll explain...

*"Why I Made It So"*

*Reason #1:* I'm not looking to blow up the Hex7 limbs of my Covert Hunter and would much rather enjoy the vast amount of power these limbs offer up rather than shooting the lowest weight arrows possible off the least strand count of zero stretch string possible making catastrophic limb failure "a when" instead of "a never" only to end with a "Hello Borders?" phone call to tell them my sad story and for what?...to eek out a few more FPS?

*Reason #1.5:* Where IMHO?...."enhanced speed"?...really isn't their strong suit but they offer up "Gobs of Power" for those willing to exploit such....and I am.


Now I'm only a 27 1/2" DL Archer and the first arrow configuration I hit tune with were 29" Long GT5575/.400's with 145gr points weighing 420gr/9.3GPP and?...these arrows crossed the beams at 195/195/196fps....(using "Borders Safe" 8190 string)...BTW?....take note of how my 4" fletchings of all three arrow remained well outside of the bale...






While my 29" Long CX Mayhem Hunter shafts spined .350 with 200gr points weighed exactly 100grs more at 520gr/11.5GPP and despite chrono readings dropping too 183/180/180fps?...all 3 of these bare shafts sunk into the bale all the way up too and including...the nocks...






Running the K.E./Momentum Calculator?...

Punching in 420gr @ 195fps got me: K.E.=35.43 / Momentum=.363

where?...

Punching in 520gr @ 180fps got me: K.E.=37.37 / Momentum=.415

so where penetration is concerned?...the heavier 520gr arrow off the CH enjoyed a 5% increase in K.E. and a whopping 13% increase in Momentum.

Which played out in spades on my brand new Delta Hog target last night...










where there were (2) "Clinchers" in that not only are my 200gr points like 11/32" fatter in diameter over the 5/16ths 145gr points but also?...my BH had dropped 1/4" from 7"s (where the heavier arrows were tuned) too 6 3/4" where the heavier arrow were flying slightly stiff as opposed to the pristine clean flight of the lighter 420gr arrows yet?...











that 13% more momentum sunk'em a good 4"s deeper into the hog despite flying a touch stiff.

And if you think a 45# CH pushing 520gr arrow is slow?...consider this....

Ref: Blacky's Bow Reports where he renders extremely comprehensive reports on many popular traditional/conventional recurves such as Black Widows KBX, Rose Oak Puma, Bear Super Kodiak, Black Widow PCH "Dark Side"...well?...here's the link...

http://www.archeryreports.com/index.php/traditionalbowreports/category/recurvebows.html

and what you will notice is Blacky is real consistent in his comparisons which all come close too shooting 9GPP where their arrow speeds range from about 186fps-194fps...let me repeat...with 9GPP arrow weights drawn too 28"s

My "Slow Covert Hunter"?...is shooting 2.5GPP more arrow weight at close too the same speeds and with 1/2" less DL....that's not "slow" gentlefolk...it's...

*"Dang Powerful"*

It's a 60"/45# bow that feels like I'm pulling through the loose of a 64"/40# bow and yielding the performance of a 62"/55# bow...and doing so at my 27 1/2" DL....and?....I'll Take That All Life Long!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

^^^ What he said...

If you're primarily chasing speed, there's no need to throw money into a high tech bow, drop the arrow weight.

You want to hit hard at a given holding weight while maintaining the operation of a single string 'traditional' bow and still keep the speed on the higher side, the Super Recurve (whoever makes it) is your friend.

It's a matter of matching the tool to the purpose.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Like me with a sub 28" draw you're never going to get the speeds of somebody with a +29" draw so no point in seriously chasing it.

As BarneySlayer said arrow weight is the way to go for us to bring up to respectable speeds, something you can't really do with Borders but something I can do with my K7's an MK limbs. I'm still behind the long draw Archers in speed but I have closed the gap a little.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

That ch is super quiet too Jinks.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

The thinking behind the CH is to offer a hunting bow that throws heavier arrows at speeds that others bows would only achieve using light arrows.
I still think that any recurve shooting over 180 fps is fast. I can get 202 out of my 49# but find that the heavier arrow are more stable and less effected by a bad release or wind. No idea what they run but they are 80 grains heavier so probably still around 190.


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## fwood (Feb 14, 2016)

Yep Well said on all counts.
I don't shoot heavy draw weight. 45# is about max I will shoot but my preference is about 35#. I don't hunt anymore but really enjoy 3D. Very recently acquired a set of 32# Hex5-W Medium, obviously, very different animal than the 7.5 but I think the action is similar.
With these limbs on my 25" riser they're pretty quick (haven't chrono'd and prob never will) with my 600 spine 340 grain arrows at 30" draw and the bow is quiet. But where it really shines for me is when I put these limbs on my RCX17 riser and shoot my 400 spine 425 grain arrows at 29" draw. Clearly not as fast but the draw is so smooth and linear feeling and the arrows fly like darts. The bow is incredibly quiet and totally dead in the hand at release and hits with authority for it's draw weight. Best for me is that I am still at only 39# max weight at 29". It's definitely not all about the speed.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I've said for years it's not how fast these bows are it's how they perform overall 

Feel etc 

Good post Jinks


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

That's a 45# bow with a normal draw length putting out enough power for really big game, like moose and elk. It's also very well made and gorgeous to boot.

How can anyone not like that?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Breathn said:


> That ch is super quiet too Jinks.


Thanks John!...and I love the tone of it as well...it has that nice, deep, rich...*"THOoooMP"*...that reminds me of a well tuned Black Widow except..."quieter"...and?...about 20-25% more power pound for pound. 



Bill 2311 said:


> The thinking behind the CH is to offer a hunting bow that throws heavier arrows at speeds that others bows would only achieve using light arrows.
> I still think that any recurve shooting over 180 fps is fast.


Amen & Preach It Brother! LOL!

When a bow has the ability too move 11.5GPP arrows at speeds typically seen with 9GPP arrows using bows of a conventional limb profile?...it yields a much different view of downrange trajectory...and I like it!...not to mention the greatly enhanced penetration.  





JParanee said:


> I've said for years it's not how fast these bows are it's how they perform overall
> 
> Feel etc
> 
> Good post Jinks


Thought of you while shooting the CH the other night Joe...more specifically?...*"That Feel"*...thing you've always expounded upon whereby I acknowledged your righteousness in stating such as?....

I was really appreciating "That Feel" and how it seemed it allowed my form to basically "Fall Into Lock" which is something I grow to struggle achieving with other bows especially when fatigue starts becoming a factor where the Hex7 limbs seemed to have...

*"A Built In Hydraulic Assist"* (so to speak)

and right where one could make the best use of such...towards the back end. 



kegan said:


> That's a 45# bow with a normal draw length putting out enough power for really big game, like moose and elk. It's also very well made and gorgeous to boot.
> 
> How can anyone not like that?


Amen Kegan!...and what really turns me on?...is me having the faith that...

*"There isn't a creature walking the North American Continent I'd Fear with this bow in my hands."*

Now that's not to say I wouldn't treat them and any hypothetical situation one might imagine with an intense level of respect but?...this bow could definitely rock their cradle and I can't think of a single other 45# bow I'd feel comfortable stating that with...but I do with this one!


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Thanks for the report, Jinks. I hunt but I'm not in the heavy arrow camp. I do realize a 520gr arrow at 45# and 180fps is decent. Your lighter 420 grain arrow being in the speed range I was thinking of - near 200 fps.

We all like different things. I'd shoot that bow with an arrow that would give me over 200 and be happy. I doubt it would bother a thing. I'm not a big Border fan but I don't think they are one bit fragile. Not at all.

Good report


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

kegan said:


> That's a 45# bow with a normal draw length putting out enough power for really big game, like moose and elk...


I've read all the reviews, tried to comprehend some of the Sids posts and still couldn't understand/justify why anyone would spend that much money of a recurve. Well... after seeing these numbers, I finally "get it." A 40 to 45# hunting outfit that will perform like a 50 to 60# rig. 

I still can't see why anyone would want one for anything other than hunting. :^)


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I've read all the reviews, tried to comprehend some of the Sids posts and still couldn't understand/justify why anyone would spend that much money of a recurve. Well... after seeing these numbers, I finally "get it." A 40 to 45# hunting outfit that will perform like a 50 to 60# rig.
> 
> I still can't see why anyone would want one for anything other than hunting. :^)



That's it Jim exactly 

I came from 65 to 70 pound recurves back in the day 

Now I'm happily shooting 50 pounds and if I want big game penetration 55


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jinks. Blackies numbers are machine shot. No silencers.

Anything other than hunting....
Folks are shooting x10 arrows at ace speeds. Why take on light unstable shafts when you can shoot heavy ones without sight mark issues.
X10s at 8-9gpp often give club level archers issues getting decent sight marks. So the use soda straws.
They dont have to.
They also dont have to overbow themselves to achieve it either


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Borderbows said:


> Jinks. Blackies numbers are machine shot. No silencers.


Two more good points I failed to point out. :embara:

Thanks for picking up my slack! LOL! 



Borderbows said:


> Anything other than hunting....
> Folks are shooting x10 arrows at ace speeds. Why take on light unstable shafts when you can shoot heavy ones without sight mark issues.
> X10s at 8-9gpp often give club level archers issues getting decent sight marks. So the use soda straws.
> They dont have to.
> They also dont have to overbow themselves to achieve it either


<Insert "Truths" & a "Thank You" Here>

*Truth #1:* I was both envious of the Hex7 Covert Hunter (to the 10th degree) and appalled at the price point when they first debuted where as a result?...

*Truth #2:* I took it on as a personal challenge to somehow replicate the performance levels of the CH using commercially priced riser and limb components and while I could handily match velocity by dropping arrow weight?...time and time again I failed miserably at even coming close to equaling the power and performance of the Hex7 Covert Hunter.

*Truth #3:* For what I spent in shipping fees and losses encountered buying and selling bows over the past 2-3 years?...I probably could've purchased (2) Hex7 Covert Hunters.

So Thank you Borderbows!...for ending my insane search for....*"My Magic Bow"*


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## LuisLeon (Feb 23, 2015)

Jinks calling the CH hunter your "magic bow" is boyish and whimsical and the reasons why I have enjoyed your post and archery so much. Also, I feel better about my slight obsession with my magic bow.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

LuisLeon said:


> Jinks calling the CH hunter your "magic bow" is boyish and whimsical and the reasons why I have enjoyed your post and archery so much. Also, I feel better about my slight obsession with my magic bow.


Well thank you LuisLeon! 

It warms my heart to know my childlike expressions have inadvertently brightened up your day and outlook on your current equipment. :thumbs_up

It's been a long, tiresome and often times lackluster journey for me my friend...one where I spent several years along with much expense, time and effort to ultimately achieve very similar results time and time again.

But even as such?...I view it (and value it) in a positive fashion as *"A Process"* which took place that not only landed me on identifying and acquiring a bow that is in fact a far departed standout from all others I've owned?...but in that process?...it also defined and refined me in a personal way where I did in fact taste test all 33 of Baskin Robbins flavors and walked out with a triple scoop sugar cone of the flavor I liked best where I learned as much about myself as I have many different bows.

*<insert funny related story here>*

As a result?...it's also changed the way I roll in my purchase decisions where about a week ago?...I decided to upgrade from my 12 year old Cort guitar I purchased for $359 in Oct. of 2004 by adding too it an Epiphone Masterbilt I thought was a steal of a deal being an "All Solid Tone Wood" guitar sale priced new at $539....with a case and tax?...I walked out for $660 and was oh so proud of my stellar (yet much too the frugal side) acquisition here....










Until I got it home and played it for a week where I concluded this made in china POS wasn't worth the woods it was made of and would've felt better of myself had I just handed that $660 too a homeless family and kept on playing my old Cort guitar...which made me want to vomit...and brought to light my recent experience with bows which in turn reminded me of some very sage words a much wiser man once shared with me of...

*"Never settle for less son because the worst deal in the house is being faced with the decision of either spending good money after bad or?...remain left wanting."* 

which is when I showered up, dressed up and ran across town too the Guitar Center music store to exercise my "45 Day Satisfaction Guarantee" and take advantage of my full in store refund and exchange this huge mistake for the one I truly wanted and should've grabbed in the first place....

a 16 year old Taylor 612CE complete with an original Taylor Made Hard Case (that they quit offering several years back) that was hanging on their "Used Gear" racks...








































Now despite the $1,799 sticker of this $2,400 used guitar?...I still managed to haggle them down a bit by offering them $1,000 even along with my $660 refund (taxes and all OTD) but the difference is?...

10 years from now?...I'd be lucky to recover a couple hundred for the made in china Epiphone....but I do believe I'd have no problem at all lining folks up to drop a couple thousand on this "Made In America" (El Cajon, CA) Premium Guitar that plays and sings like an Angel from Heaven handed it too me where instead of being disappointed and disgusted?...I'm both proud and blessed to own it and a smile crosses my heart with every strum of the strings.

Now?...what price/value does one put on such differences?...and for bonus points?...

*"I now own 'A MAGIC GUITAR'....and?...'A MAGIC BOW'!!!* :laugh:


my two favorite things with strings!!!


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Favorite things with strings are bows and guitars?

Mine are bikinis.

But that's just me. LOL


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Keeshond said:


> Favorite things with strings are bows and guitars?
> 
> Mine are bikinis.
> 
> But that's just me. LOL


Yep...I raised 3 beautiful daughters in which case?...I prefer woman wear bathing suits like I prefer my longbows..

a nice classy one piece. 

They just seem to command a little more respect for some reason...cause it takes a darn good look'in woman to look great in a one piece. LOL!

Sorta draws a real deep line in the beach sand between cheap lust and true beauty. 

But trust me on this one...speaking as a father of 3 daughters?...it ain't..."Just You"


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

LuisLeon said:


> Jinks calling the CH hunter your "magic bow" is boyish and whimsical and the reasons why I have enjoyed your post and archery so much. Also, I feel better about my slight obsession with my magic bow.


Me too.

While it's nice to rationalize our decisions with objective, practical reasons, we're all in this for fun, and part of that fun is the 'magical' element.

I admire Jinks' passion in what he does, and like to shave off a bit for myself, time to time


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Jinks, you won't believe this but I have three girls, too. A set of twins at 25 and the oldest at 30. 

None, including my wife at 54, would consider a one-piece suit. We have no inhibitions at all. LOL

I've even retained my girlish shape and can wear something fetching.


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## Bandman72 (Aug 25, 2009)

Enjoyed this post! Exactly the kind hunting bow I'm interested in...more power from less draw weight. Let me ask a question...what kind of overall length would be recommended for a 27 1/2" draw length? I shoot from a climbing tree stand and can benefit from a shorter overall length bow. Borders CH definitely has my attention!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> I've even retained my girlish shape and can wear something fetching.


You going to back that up with some pictures?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bandman72 said:


> Enjoyed this post! Exactly the kind hunting bow I'm interested in...more power from less draw weight. Let me ask a question...what kind of overall length would be recommended for a 27 1/2" draw length? I shoot from a climbing tree stand and can benefit from a shorter overall length bow. Borders CH definitely has my attention!


It's more a question of what string angle you're comfortable with, height of the sight window you want, and then choosing limbs and a riser to fit.

The Covert Hunters are about 4" shorter undrawn than a conventional recurve of the same 'bow length', though the strings are about 2" longer than the bow length. I.e., at braced height, a 62" covert hunter will have about the same vertical envelope as a 58" recurve, and at full draw, the string angle of a 64" recurve. With a 28 1/2" draw, I really like my 19" riser with medium limbs. Think the same would work for you, though you could go shorter riser, or combine a longer riser with possibly shorter limbs, but I'd call Border and talk to the horse's mouth, so to speak, and explain what you mean by draw length, because there is AMO draw length, and then there's at least a couple other versions. They can send you a link to a chart with riser/limb combinations as it regards draw length.


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## rogbo (Jan 2, 2004)

That Taylor is the Real Deal Jinx. I beat on a rainsong but I get a little woosy everytime a pick up a taylor K26ce.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

*"PENETRATION": (DIGGING DEEPER W/ THE HEX7 COVERT HUNTER)*

So?...to recap?...where in the latest testing I observed my heavier 520gr arrows spined .350 with 200gr points were flying a touch stiff but had identified why...my BH had dropped from 7"s even (where they tuned and flew well) too 6 3/4" and just before looping on my Borders Stringer tonight to put a couple more twists in my 8190 string to bring the BH back up too that 7"s?...I stopped thinking...

*"Wait!...if heavier was good?..."MORE'...might be better!"*

so before I spun more twists in my string?...I spun some 250gr Points in my 29" long .350 spine Mayhem Hunter shafts....after all?...it's what we do when a shaft is flying a touch too the stiff side right?...so I did....and at 6 3/4" BH with 250gr points making 570gr arrows off this 60"/45# CH?...I did in fact get decent bare shaft arrow flight...these were shot at 15yds...










I know what you're thinking..."pretty sloppy shooting"....right?...well here's the deal....











The 3 arrows down below are the 520gr shafts with the 200gr points...while the 3 arrow up top...*"That Enjoyed About 3"s More Penetration"*...are the 570gr arrows with the 250gr points (where I aimed for the 14 ring) 

weird part was?...I didn't see a whole lot of drop or speed loss however the bow got even quieter and smoother shooting at 12.7GPP but?....how much velocity did this cost me?...






Running the K.E./Momentum Calculator I HAD?...

Punching in 420gr @ 195fps got me: K.E.=35.43 / Momentum=.363

where?...

Punching in 520gr @ 180fps got me: K.E.=37.37 / Momentum=.415

and now I GOT...

Punching in 570gr @ 178fps got me: K.E.=40.06 / Momentum=.450

Imagine that...looks like I'm exploiting a vast amount of lethality from the Hex7 Covert Hunters vast...."POWER"


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

I've learned on the hex limbs to feed them the weight ,it brings the efficiency out of them .that's crazy performance


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

kegan said:


> That's a 45# bow with a normal draw length putting out enough power for really big game, like moose and elk. It's also very well made and gorgeous to boot.
> 
> How can anyone not like that?


Like everything but the $1,700 price tag......


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

centershot said:


> Like everything but the $1,700 price tag......


Felt the same way for about 3 years....and in the process?....probably blew that much in shipping & insurance trying dozens of other bows hoping to come close and failed miserably.

Grabbed this pristine example used off the classifieds for $1,350.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

*UPDATE/CORRECTION:*

Folks?...I apologize...as it turns out?...all my preceding "Penetration Pix" are Bogus...where it was brought to my attention that the foam core in my Delta Hog is in fact denser than the foam of the surrounding body where this evening I conformed this by re-shooting "The Other Way Around" and to save myself typing?...I'll just paste here what I posted elsewhere...

*********************************************

Well Folks?...The good news is they say a nice large helping of crow from time too time is good for the soul where tonight?...I just had a double helping and am feeling very humble. 

Humble enough to extend a sincere apology too CCH (for my tongue and cheek sarcasm) and a Thank You too Tooner for bringing this core density thing too my attention and here's how things played out between the 250gr points and the 200gr points where this time?...I switched up and shot the heavier 250gr pointed arrows in the purportedly denser core and the lighter 200gr pointed arrows in the hogs main body foam where I discovered and confirmed...










it's just like CCH alluded too and Tooner claimed...the core is denser where my lighter arrows where now penetrating notably deeper.


Where at this point I figured the most efficient way to proceed would be to flag the heavier arrows (with green painters tape just before the nocks) and re-shoot the 3 lighter arrows into the denser foam core just above them and got this...not much difference...










where the couple extra ftlbs of K.E. the heavier pointed arrows afforded penetrated about a bulldog nock collar and launching pad nock deeper in that denser foam core...about 1/2" (on average) in fractional terms... 










so my most profuse apologies go out to any whom I may have offended and any who may feel as though they'd been misled by my now "bogus penetration pix" I unwittingly touted as penetration results.

On a brighter note?...I felt so shamed for my crimes against humanity that I simply had to do something to make myself feel better and the heavier 570gr/12.7GPP arrows were flying so straight and clean that at evenings end?...I risked backing up to take 3 last shots at 25yds with those bare shafts tipped with 250gr points and while it was dark enough I never got to see them in flight?....










I must have gotten something right even if they did all strike a bit low cause this is good shooting for me with bare shafts at 25yds in the dark! 

I'm also glad I called in my order for 1/2 Dozen 250gr VPA 2 Blade Broadheads today! 

*****************************************


Thought I should fess up here as well...sorry about that....it was an honest mistake.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Honest mistake Bill 

I love your Enthusiasm


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Somewhere along the lineI went from a 385 grain arrow to 475 grain.
I too discovered that the Covert Hunter does not show the same diminished speed with heavier arrows as other bows.
I think my chrono is off but hope to actually run mine to see what it show me. With the light arrows it was reading 202 fps. It will be interesting to see what 95 extra grains foes to the speed.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Bill,
Ran mine over the chronograph this morning. It is designed for firearms and I have always suspected it to be reading low at bow speeds. 
49#@28". 475 grain arrows (9.7 grains/#) yield 188 fps. 435 (8.877 grains/#) grain arrows gives me 195 fps.
Out to 25 yards I don't notice the difference.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bill 2311 said:


> Bill,
> Ran mine over the chronograph this morning. It is designed for firearms and I have always suspected it to be reading low at bow speeds.
> 49#@28". 475 grain arrows (9.7 grains/#) yield 188 fps. 435 (8.877 grains/#) grain arrows gives me 195 fps.
> Out to 25 yards I don't notice the difference.


Bill?...if you don't mind me asking...what spine, point weight and length were the two arrow configurations tested?


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Goldtip Velocities .400 29"
Easton Aftermaths .400 29"
Both with 175 tips to match my Zwickey Deltas with inserts.
The 5/16 GTS are a tad stiffer bare shaft. The Aftermaths are a 9/32 diameter and are just a tiny bit under centershot while the GTS are right on center.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Goldtip Velocities .400 29"
Easton Aftermaths .400 29"
Both with 175 tips to match my Zwickey Deltas with inserts.
The 5/16 GTS are a tad stiffer bare shaft. The Aftermaths are a 9/32 diameter and are just a tiny bit under centershot while the GTS are right on center.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I hate this phone. ...
Another double post.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I very much dig the aftermaths


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

John Wert recommended them. VERY tough and consistent


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Guys can anybody point me to real DFC curves for BB CH? I really like to see some. Or if any of you owners have draw board?
Thanx and,...
Cheers


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)




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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanx Borderbows for graph posting. Now i would be pleased if you can clarify to me is there a plan to produce HEX 7,5 limbs for ILF risers as well?
Further more what would be diff between HEX 6.6 and HEX 7.7 on same specs?
One more question though, i am shooting Win&Win EXPrime with 25" ILF riser 45#@28" of draw. What would i gain if transition to HEX limbs?
I am interested only in real life test comparison.
Thanx in advance
daemon


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> Thanx Borderbows for graph posting. Now i would be pleased if you can clarify to me is there a plan to produce HEX 7,5 limbs for ILF risers as well?
> Further more what would be diff between HEX 6.6 and HEX 7.7 on same specs?
> One more question though, i am shooting Win&Win EXPrime with 25" ILF riser 45#@28" of draw. What would i gain if transition to HEX limbs?
> I am interested only in real life test comparison.
> ...


The 7.5 ILF has caught up with the hex7 bolt down for energy. Its been out for a little while now.

The 6.6 vs 7.5 is a significant jump.
The simple way to put it is. Conventional limbs pull 2.1lbs in that last inch. 6.6 limbs pull 1.4lbs weight for weight. Spec for spec. While the hex7.5 is 0.5lbs.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

I appreciate your reply Borderbows,
I was thinking about HEX 6.6 limbs for some time but i am still hesitant though they fall under resonable budget for that kind of engineering.
My main problem is nobody have any near me so i am in blind here and i am more interested in speed increase over ExPrimes at same specs than in general feeling of shooting. I am getting odd results when searching net for speed test BB HEX vs WinWin ExPrime.
Did you tested simmilar setups?
Cheers


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Border, your limbs slowly gain more curl and the shape changes a little bit with each iteration. Slowly you are increasing the amount of curl. 

Have you ever just made a limb that in it's relaxed state assumed a 3/4 turn or a 270 degree profile? Maybe even more? The idea being to find out all at once just how far you can curl recurve tips without sneaking up on it with a new limb to sell every 6 months that have small changes.

Or is that bad business? I mean once you find the limit you have no place to go from there and you can't continue to sell 8s and 8.5 and 9s, etc. Almost like the iPhone. 

Not trying to be a wiseguy, I really wonder about this. I also wonder why no major company follows your example expect Uukha and they are not nearly as radical in design.

Like I said, not trying to be a wiseguy but I am extremely cynical about incremental changes when a much larger one might get you to recurve nirvana faster. Just curious.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> Border, your limbs slowly gain more curl and the shape changes a little bit with each iteration. Slowly you are increasing the amount of curl.
> 
> Have you ever just made a limb that in it's relaxed state assumed a 3/4 turn or a 270 degree profile? Maybe even more? The idea being to find out all at once just how far you can curl recurve tips without sneaking up on it with a new limb to sell every 6 months that have small changes.
> 
> ...


I cant beleave Henry ford didnt just invent a comon rail desiel engine. With full traction control. ABS. DAB radio and heated front screen.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> I appreciate your reply Borderbows,
> I was thinking about HEX 6.6 limbs for some time but i am still hesitant though they fall under resonable budget for that kind of engineering.
> My main problem is nobody have any near me so i am in blind here and i am more interested in speed increase over ExPrimes at same specs than in general feeling of shooting. I am getting odd results when searching net for speed test BB HEX vs WinWin ExPrime.
> Did you tested simmilar setups?
> Cheers


We tested our conventional limbs and some hex5s against them back in those days.
Every itteration of limb we have done has improoved enough for us to want to introduce a new name for it.
A direct answer to your question is no we havent compaired our lastest generations of limbs against that model


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> I cant beleave Henry ford didnt just invent a comon rail desiel engine. With full traction control. ABS. DAB radio and heated front screen.


So you're telling me you lack the imagination or skill to make a limb form that assumes a much tighter curl and then have a go at it? You can't do that tomorrow if you wanted to? Couldn't start the forms at least? 

I don't believe you. I now do believe you need the income of each minor increase in curl so that by the time you do get to the limit we're shooting Hex 75.7s and you've sold a million more limb sets. (hard to blame you for this, but I do)

You're not Henry Ford. He changed the world. You're a bow maker. Big difference.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I wont' speak for Sid, but in my colorful imagination, you make a much bigger curl, it doesn't work very well, and it's so bad, it's hard to tell why, and how far you could have gone before the first thing you needed to address made itself obvious by itself.

I can design speakers all day with some rudimentary software, but you've got to actually get all the components in place, built into an enclosure, with filter slopes applied, and crank it to see what it actually does, then you need to start making adjustments, possibly including trying new drivers, rebuilding cabinets, whatever.

If there is a marketing angle to a trickle release of technology, I don't personally even care. At least you're getting something else, instead of the same thing with a new name and different graphics. But, maybe I'm not the target demographic, because I'm fine with my old early version 7s, and until I actually want something else, in addition to what I've got, the only thing Border Bows is getting out of me is having a happy customer, but I think that's still worth something


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer.
To your last statement. I wouldnt want it any other way.
And its up to me to develop a product that you will want.
I personally have had a samsung galaxy s3. The 4 didnt have any merrits to me. I had 99% of it in my s3.
So i got the s5. The camera was a lot better. And it had more memory. It was waterproof too. That was enough to make me take the plunge.
The s6 was just a s5 IMO. Except it had a few limitiations.
But the camera on the S7 and more memory has sold me on it.
Thats how life works.
I hope to be able to make a product that can comunicate itself to you enough to entice you from the 7s to something better.
That to me seems like the right way to do it. And i will try my best to provide you with facts and figures to help you make your mind up.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Borderbows said:


> I cant beleave Henry ford didnt just invent a comon rail desiel engine. With full traction control. ABS. DAB radio and heated front screen.


I killed myself with laugh on this 

Sid, as potential customer i just asked you what would i gain in speed if i use your limbs over ExPrimes i shoot for almost three years and you gave me mushy answer i still cant digest. My ExPrimes shoot well over 200 fps with 365gr arrow. What speed you can get from HEX 7,5 medium limbs on 25" ILF riser on 28"@45#?
Thanx for answer
Cheers


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Much larger recurve hooks could be tried immediately and evaluated. Probably they have been tried and found wanting. Now the game of economics is how do you continue to make a new product to sell every few months without approaching the true fail point. You do that by sneaking on what you as a builder already know is the recurve limit.

You do this to keep customers coming to your door to buy the next big thing.

Why others don't see this is a mystery to me. But then I am a cynic in all things commercial archery that have never proven themselves superior in competition in the first place.


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Keeshond said:


> Much larger recurve hooks could be tried immediately and evaluated. Probably they have been tried and found wanting. Now the game of economics is how do you continue to make a new product to sell every few months without approaching the true fail point. You do that by sneaking on what you as a builder already know is the recurve limit.
> 
> You do this to keep customers coming to your door to buy the next big thing.
> 
> Why others don't see this is a mystery to me. But then I am a cynic in all things commercial archery that have never proven themselves superior in competition in the first place.


It takes a lot of time,money and tries to get everything just right to release to the public and have it shoot well and safe. Every change requires different tapers thickness and widths. Consider the thickness of a piece of paper will change the weight of the bow a few pounds. Each change in curve changes everything again. I talked to Sid and they are always trying different things and a lot don't work. When you are that far ahead of everyone else in performance even a small increase is a big advance.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Keeshond 

I ve been fortunate to probable try more versions of the Hex design than most and all I can say is that from the 5's to say the 7.5 R&D limbs I'm shooting now is night and day 

It took them years to get there and needed to mare materials and layup tech to get there 

Even from the 7's to what I. Shooting know there are differences ..... all improvements 

Incremental jumps 

The way the SIDS develop they are constantly trying to improve the limb design 

If this was easy everyone would be doing it 

I've handed my bows to competent bowyers and they have just said no I could not make that 

I do believe some day the big companies will chase SR technology 

We will see 

But again they are making LIMBS for the masses and let's face it a Hoyt Quattro ain't nothing special 

It's a stabile quick limb but Brady and Jake could shoot any limb well 

But let's talk business 

Any prouduct out there that is pushing technology goes in increments 

From drones to motorcycles technology is a trickle down thing and yes it encourages people to buy the next thing ....... that's good business 

To fault border and not fault , Hoyt , Mathews , Honda , Ktm, Porsche , Ferrari , etc would be silly ....no ?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Keeshond said:


> Much larger recurve hooks could be tried immediately and evaluated. Probably they have been tried and found wanting. Now the game of economics is how do you continue to make a new product to sell every few months without approaching the true fail point. You do that by sneaking on what you as a builder already know is the recurve limit.
> 
> You do this to keep customers coming to your door to buy the next big thing.
> 
> Why others don't see this is a mystery to me. But then I am a cynic in all things commercial archery that have never proven themselves superior in competition in the first place.


Keeshond?...you Sir are like...

*"Me Running Into Myself"*

because your words were my words for the past couple years where I refused to acknowledge Borders Tremendous Successes and?...for much the same reasons you cite...matter fact?....I used top tease that...

*"I'm holding out for the Hex13's!"*

for which I can not profusely apologize enough for these days and cringe when I think of things I've said that were statements much like the very ones you are proclaiming here when in reality?...and looking back at the big picture with 20/20 hindsight?...

The only thing Borders Archery has done has been to remain extremely progressive in their ongoing efforts to procure what are pound for pound the most powerful recurve limbs available and for those efforts?...they've received everything from died in the wool loyal customers and dedicated consumers too?....

Tons of backlash from those few who sought to push Borders products well beyond their already top level performance or didn't pay attention to the recommended specifications and suffered catastrophic limb failures and as a result?...relentlessly hammered Borders in an ongoing unmerciful fashion that carries on to this day. 

Yet they keep on trucking despite the haters...(including once?..."Myself")....Kudo's too and Long Live Borders!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Jinks Keeshond hunts with Borders so that tells me that when it really counts .... he knows


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

I do hunt with hex 6s with no complaints. They are the fastest limb I've ever shot for the draw weight I like. But I don't compete with them because I can't group at distance with them to my personal standard. I find them "touchy" and I really notice it past 35 yards or so. I shoot field out to 80 yards but most shots are around 35-40 yards.

Hunting you don't need a terribly steady limb because the shots are close and the targets big. (deer) I do like the penetration I get with the Hex 6. My Samick Masters give me 201fps at 38#, the Hex 6 shoot about 210 with the same 295 grain arrow I hunt with. I like the extra speed. Who wouldn't? 

I don't compete with them (hex6) because I lose a few points. So who would want that? Different game, hunting and target.

I contend the vast majority of archers buy limbs based on speed only. They either don't test for accuracy at longer range, don't care about accuracy at longer range, or are not capable of grouping well enough past 40 yards to discern a difference in limbs to begin with regarding guilt-edge accuracy. I know that I can see a clear difference at 50 yards because I shoot for score all the time when I practice. I don't stump shoot or shoot foam pigs in my backyard at 20 yards and declare a particular limb or bow superb. The chrono is fun but it only tells you how fast you just missed the seven ring when you should have had it the 8-ring. 

Not a Border fan for lots of reasons, but for short range deer hunting I think they are great. That's the best I can say about them. 

BTW. I watched the recent World Field Championships from Dublin recently on the computer. What was very noticeable to me this year was the absence of Border limbs I saw on top shooters of either sex. In fact, I didn't see any used although I'm sure somebody was using them. This is in marked contrast to recent field competitions. There seems to be an exodus away from the whole super-curve movement lately. Guys and gals are tending back to what groups best in the end. That being the conventional Hoyt-style configuration figured out many year ago and not really improved upon to any significant degree.

So buy whatever you like but don't expect miracles on your score sheet if score matters to you. To a lot of archers status and the appearance of owning the best thing is what it's really all about. So there is that going for Border, they do have cache if you're into that. I'm not. I only care about score in the end. (THE END) LOL


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> BarneySlayer.
> To your last statement. I wouldnt want it any other way.
> And its up to me to develop a product that you will want.
> I personally have had a samsung galaxy s3. The 4 didnt have any merrits to me. I had 99% of it in my s3.
> ...


I look forward to that time 

I'll keep my eyes out. When something speaks to me, I'll be sure to drop you an e-mail. If I ever get to Scotland, I'll drop you a pint, or a cube of cheese. I don't want to offend you and assume that everybody over there likes beer 

I do, though, just in case I'm on your Christmas list.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> So buy whatever you like but don't expect miracles on your score sheet if score matters to you. To a lot of archers status and the appearance of owning the best thing is what it's really all about. So there is that going for Border, they do have cache if you're into that. I'm not. I only care about score in the end.


I wouldn't claim to have your skill level, and concede that maybe I don't shoot at a level where I can discern a 'twitchy' limb, and most of the time I'm scoring, it's an unmarked 3d stuff, which makes consistent comparison difficult. But, the most recent shoots I've been to that actually had identical target setups (so far as I know), the NFAA 3D nationals in Redding, in 2014, I scored 1118 with conventional limbs, and in 2015, 1165 with super recurve limbs (On a Covert Hunter). I wasn't exactly taking top scores, but I can say that, for my skill level, which I think is at least reasonable, it doesn't seem to be a major setback, and describing them as 'twitchy', which they may very well be for you, might give the average buyer the wrong idea. 

Granted, I don't string walk, and I'm not a serious competitor, but then again, most people don't, and most aren't, regardless of the equipment they're using. Ultimately, I think it's a very personal and context specific thing.

To the poster who is supposedly a prospective customer, if you're looking only for speed out of the gate, at the chrono fresh off the bow, don't care about combining that with arrow mass, or for that matter getting the same speed with the same arrow with a lighter draw weight, don't care about the feel of the draw, or how you may mesh with it (for better or even possibly worse), I don't think Border or any vendor of Super Recurve limbs has a whole lot to offer you. 

The limitations on arrow speed are primarily a matter of how fast can you let the string move such that the subsequent limb movement and residual energy doesn't shake you or the bow apart. You can get 200 fps or significantly faster with lots of limbs, at least for awhile. If you don't mind me asking, what are you looking to gain that you feel you're missing with what you've got?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> I do hunt with hex 6s with no complaints. They are the fastest limb I've ever shot for the draw weight I like. But I don't compete with them because I can't group at distance with them to my personal standard. I find them "touchy" and I really notice it past 35 yards or so. I shoot field out to 80 yards but most shots are around 35-40 yards.
> 
> Hunting you don't need a terribly steady limb because the shots are close and the targets big. (deer) I do like the penetration I get with the Hex 6. My Samick Masters give me 201fps at 38#, the Hex 6 shoot about 210 with the same 295 grain arrow I hunt with. I like the extra speed. Who wouldn't?
> 
> ...


let me just repeat my self.
Just for you John.

this came through in October this year:
I thought you might like this story. I participated in the Midwest Renaissance Festival archery tournament last month. It is set up so that you shoot three wooden arrows at ten yard progressive distances until only one archer remains. About 65 archers began the tournament in front of hundreds of arriving guests to the park. I won decisively both days shooting the 70" Covert Hunter at 43# at 30" and 72 # spine wood arrows. On the first day, I won hitting a 80cm target at 110 yards on two out of three arrows (Photo attached) The second day I won at 100 yards. Just goes to show that it is certainly more than a hunting bow
From a US archer.

from Australia: this year
I have won State ABA with my covert Hunter,state IFAA and National IFAA with the Hex 7.5s on the gillo , Second in the WFAC using 7.5s and my tempest riser all shot in the Bare bow classes

another:
3D european champion 2016 Slovenia Instinctive class: FABIO PITTALUGA hex6.5s

another with hex6 limbs
Gold at Irish national outdoor championships 2014

another from the UK:
HexV World Flight record. Griffon GL GB flight record. Several Clout records, and 6 times GB Clout champion with HexV,6 and 7. Only recurve in history shooting 6 clout end. Member of English Team that won the Euronations with Hex6. (Only came second individually, I'm not used to shooting in very hot and dry!)

another from Ireland
1st place in Barebow at IFAF (Ireland) National Championship International IFAA Round and UAR. Hex6.6 ILF Limbs#42 on a 25" Cartel riser

another UK lady
2015 - Bronze medal at WBHC in Hungary, 2016 Silver medal at EBHC in Austria and also Gold medal 2016 Border 3D champs all using my trusty Border Black Douglas with hex 6.5 hyper flex limbs, 2 X shooting Bow Hunter recurve, and 1 X Hunting Tackle

in france
2015 Silver in "tir nature" (2D) French National Championship and Gold in French 3D National Championship .
2016 Gold in "Tir Nature" French National Championship.
Black Douglas with HEX 6.5 limbs, 50#@28"

another lady in OZ
2016 WFAC ladies barebow gold, with a tempest fitted with hex 5 H's

Norway
For me with a Border over the last years:
2010 Tradclass Gold team Indoor Norwegian Championship Bow: Black Douglas Hex 5
2011 Bowhunter Bronze team Norwegian Championship
Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2012 Barebow Gold team 3D Norwegian championship
Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2012 Barebow Gold individual Norwegian Championship
Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2012 Barebow Gold team Field Norwegian Championship
Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2012 Barebow Bronze individual Field Norwegian Championship Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2013 Barebow Gold team 3D Norwegian Championship
Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2013 Barebow Gold Individual 3D Norwegian Championship Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2013 Barebow Gold Team Field Norwegian championship Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2013 Barebow Gold Individual Field Norwegian Championship Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2013 Barebow WA 15th place World Championship 3D Bow: Hex 5 ILF
2014 Barebow Gold Team 3D Norwegian championship Bow: Bow: Hex 6 ILF
2014 Barebow Silver Individual 3D Norwegian Championship Bow: Hex 6 ILF
2015 Barebow Silver Individual 3D Norwegian Championship Bow :Hex 7 ILF



this one also came in:
At the European 3D Champs 2016, Heldis Zahlberger and Michaela Lake took Gold and Silver respectively in the Ladies Instinctive category. Both were shooting Border bows

one for the USA
I won the Washington state WSAA 3-D shoot and broke the 1 and 2 day scoring record shooting a 62" Covert Hunter off the shelf shooting against people shooting 25" riser and 12" stabilizers with elevated rests and plungers.

and another form the USA
2016 Masters Barebow U.S. Archery National Field Champion.
2016 Masters Barebow U.S. Open Target Champion
2016 Senior Barebow NFAA National Target Champion
2016 #1 Qualifier for 2017 Masters Barebow U.S. Archery Team (USAT)
Limbs: Border Hex 6H BB2 43 @ 30"

another shining star in france
2015 Gold in "tir nature" (2D) French National Championship and bronze in French "tir nature" (2D) National Championship team.
Black Douglas ILF with HEX 6H BB2

lady from Norway
World Archery :
2013 WC 3D i have a 5th plase
2014 EC 3D I have a 3th plase
This was whit a longbow
2015 WC 3D i have a 5th plase
HDH-IAA Europe Championship 3D i have a gold medal in 2016
This was whit a instinkt bow. HEX 5 ILF
2016 Norwegian campion in 3D

from Italy
Italian national record, master, 117 points (120 max) on 12 arrrow match, Border HEX5 on Best Zenit riser, Easton X7 2314 arrows

a British field archer
Border Scottish Champs 1st in HT 2015, INNO Max Hex 6.5H, 1st in HT 2016, Black Douglas ILF Hex 6.6H. 1st in HT NFAS Champs 2015 , INNO Max Hex 6.6H, 1st in NFAS Welsh Champs 2016, Black Douglas ILF Hex 7.5H. Several NFAS Local wins2015 and 2016 in HT and BB, Black Douglas ILF Hex 7.5H
followed by this one:

Hex 6..6 helped me take 1st place in EIAC Spain this week. Thank you Border Archery from another Irish guy.



so as far as im concerned, accuracy IS all there when you tune it right.

your coments are only your opinion in my view. these people have World, European accolades attributed to them. on paper. not just an internet snipe!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BTW, these are just the ones that posted on FB. there are others.
such as the 2015 Barebow gold Medal Gents Field, Sebastian Codina

as well as other National champions such as the Austrian 3d Champ.

there are many more who have only sent us emails. not posted thier abilites on FB.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Sid, what would be speed of HEX 7.5 medium limbs on 25" ILF riser @45# with 350-360gr arrow?
Thanx for reply
Daemon


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Sid, if I listed the total winners, not the people placing 2nd or below, who used conventional limbs there wouldn't be enough bandwidth to do so.

Most of those people you listed lost the competition you mentioned. That is an indictment not an endorsement.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Barney, I didn't understand your last sentence when you asked what am I looking to gain that I feel I'm not getting now?

I always do look for a fast limb. The reason I bought the Hex 6 limbs.

Speed is very important but it's not the most important thing.

For me a steady limb that groups well and has a feel I like is number one. I don't discount speed but grouping ability is the reason I shoot a bow.

I do find myself influenced by marketing and claims by manufacturers. I'm human even if I don't appear to be. LOL

But I test equipment and if I find it lacking for me I'll let others know. I also look around me at what others are having success with in competitive venues. I only care about making the best scores I can. I don't think most archers care about that. This is okay and why speed claims for limbs sell product.

Confidence in your equipment choice is more important than anything else in the end. I don't have that with the three sets of Border limbs I've tried over the years. I own one set. 

They are fast. They also have a bad reputation for delaminating. But to be honest I've never had this happen nor have I personally witnessed it, but my friends have. 

I do shoot the lightest arrows I can make fly well for hunting or target archery outdoors. Indoors it does not matter. Flat trajectory is important to me and I don't care about bow noise at all. 

So we have different criteria for a bow. I do hunt and I do shoot targets. The Border is a great hunting limb. In my opinion, and in the court of public opinion among those shooting in competitions, the super-curve is not the best choice. The proof is in the number of top shooters using them. Sid's list of non-winners aside, not many shooters use this style of limb because it's not better and most think it's not even as good.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> Sid, if I listed the total winners, not the people placing 2nd or below, who used conventional limbs there wouldn't be enough bandwidth to do so.
> 
> Most of those people you listed lost the competition you mentioned. That is an indictment not an endorsement.


yes John, Since we are the only one making big recurves, and not only that, DO NOT BUY OUR WINS (thats read sponsors), and we are at the very small end of the scale of manufacturers, taking Gents GOLD Barebow, and ITALIAN NATIONAL RECORDS of 117 out of 120. French National Champions, and Austrian National Champion, AND Multiple Norwigian Gents and Ladies Gold including a Norwegian National indoor record, id say your previous coment "NOT accurate enough, and YOU loose points" is entirely your own making.
lets just leave it at the idea that Those who took podium places with our kit did so with there OWN money, and OWN choice.

Its kind of a subtle point im making and any "flip side" to the coin you make will, i fear sound petty.

I have been brought up with the idea that in a debate, if you remove the objection, with a solution, and the person dances around the topic, then thier point holds no credability, other than a personal motive that your not going to find the bottom of.

Please stand up and make my day.
People ARE Winning. With what was said to be OVER the top recurve sizes, to which we made them twice as big, and people are still winning with these 2x bigger than over the top size recurves.

Makes you wonder where "these people" get thier ideas from.

please feel free to insult the hard work of many, just because it doesnt suit your game.


your call.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I am always scared of the lower brace recommendations...I have always tuned a bow with conventional limbs around 9-9.5 inches...with a shorter brace the arrow is on the string longer and has more chance for human error.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> I killed myself with laugh on this
> 
> Sid, as potential customer i just asked you what would i gain in speed if i use your limbs over ExPrimes i shoot for almost three years and you gave me mushy answer i still cant digest. My ExPrimes shoot well over 200 fps with 365gr arrow. What speed you can get from HEX 7,5 medium limbs on 25" ILF riser on 28"@45#?
> Thanx for answer
> Cheers



see page 5 
http://www.borderbows.com/uploads/CHBDJune2016v1.pdf.html

for ILF look at the Hex7 values for ILF7.5


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

stick monkey said:


> I am always scared of the lower brace recommendations...I have always tuned a bow with conventional limbs around 9-9.5 inches...with a shorter brace the arrow is on the string longer and has more chance for human error.


at 200 fps. 2" of brace is 2400 IPS, 

this equates to 0.0084 of a second.

im not sure your arm is move enough to make a difference...


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Sid, I'm not insulting your work. You do very nice custom handwork that I have not seen the equal to. Great finish and execution on your product. What we don't agree on, and never will because it's your baby, is the shooting quality of a low-brace height, so called Super Curve. 

It makes for a tender bow. A great shooter can do some good work with it. No doubt. But he or she is handicapping themselves in the end and more shooters are coming around to this understanding. I will not name names on this forum because it involves others who want nothing to do with such discussions. No doubt they are more adult or mature than I am.  So I won't name those very good American shooters I know of who have gone away from your limbs for competition. It's the same in Europe from what I can see in media of events I follow. I don't personally know any European archers. Not in person. Some online. The trend is for a stable limb that is not as fast but very predictable. Feel and confidence is everything in shooting. I find your Hex 6 is like riding a very young thoroughbred on a windy day. A very skittish ride in the woods for sure. I rather like riding my old Morgan. Nothing bothers that horse when the leaves are blowing around.

You breed thoroughbreds when what is needed is as calm Morgan to get you to the church on time without getting killed in the process.

Okay, I've gone a bit astray. Just know I do like your limbs for hunting. Lots of folks love your limbs for all kinds of reasons. What you have to understand is not everyone shares your opinions and it's unbecoming of you to react so vehemently with flawed evidence of competitive success when a shrug of your shoulders would be more in order. A man confident of his product is not put into a tailspin by one guy online who happens to not like Border limbs for target shooting. Heck, a lot of people are in my camp. A lot more than you want to admit to.

It wouldn't serve your purpose to do so. 

I guess we are done with this. Let anyone shoot what they want but don't complain too much when others point of some very hard facts about super curves you choose to ignore.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

So... ;-) your name is John....
Hi John. I am Sid. A Co-owner of border archery.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> at 200 fps. 2" of brace is 2400 IPS,
> 
> this equates to 0.0084 of a second.
> 
> im not sure your arm is move enough to make a difference...


You appear to not even fully understand the geometry of what makes a low brace height a touchy thing. It has nothing to do with time on the string, Sid, and you know this but fail to explain to the OP why a low brace height really is tougher to shoot with. 

It has to do with increasing lateral deviation of shot pattern when bow torque occurs at the grip. We all influence the bow at release to some degree. A bow with a very low brace height will send an arrow off line to the left or the right (lateral dispersal) much more noticeably with low brace height. Everyone who understand simple geometry knows this and understands this. It's the reason brace heights of 9" or so are more forgiving than low brace heights. 

Super curves were developed for speed. Speed sells product. To get the best speed you want the arrow on the string and being pushed for as long as is possible. Hence the low brace height on the Border limb. In some cases more than 2" lower. Great for speed, lousy for lateral stability and I can see this when I shoot at longer distances. My normal number of flawed shots are worse when using the Hex 6. Instead of being 5 inches off, they are twice that sometimes. To feel a mediocre shot leave your fingers that you know will be a bit off from experience suddenly go truly astray does very little for confidence.

Low brace height is a big element in the speed of these limbs. It's also the Achilles Heel. Most of the time the shot will be okay if you're solid. But once you hiccup the resulting arrow can do some very unhappy things downrange.

Just one reason against such a radical design making it unsuitable for me and many other target shooters.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

So. Your John Balduc then. (Did i spell that right???)


I ask. Simply because i like to know who im talking to?


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Borderbows said:


> see page 5
> http://www.borderbows.com/uploads/CHBDJune2016v1.pdf.html
> 
> for ILF look at the Hex7 values for ILF7.5


Thanx for reply Sid, but on page 5 it says that all bows are 60"? I believe that there is a difference in speed on 60" vs 68" recurve with same poundage. Should i add or subtract some fps, or speed is same no matter bow lenght?. Further more this table is for 54# bow so i am not overwhelmed with stated speed.
Anyway your bows look really nice  Keep up good work.
Cheers


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> Thanx for reply Sid, but on page 5 it says that all bows are 60"? I believe that there is a difference in speed on 60" vs 68" recurve with same poundage. Should i add or subtract some fps, or speed is same no matter bow lenght?. Further more this table is for 54# bow so i am not overwhelmed with stated speed.
> Anyway your bows look really nice  Keep up good work.
> Cheers


Its based on GPP. Finger shot. String silencers. Real world type situation.

What are our competitors stated speeds and what kind of setup are they looking at?


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> So. Your John Balduc then. (Did i spell that right???)
> 
> 
> I ask. Simply because i like to know who im talking to?


Half right. It's John Arthur London but why do you feel the need to publically expose a person who has a right to expect privacy on a public forum? Only insecure bullies act like that. We all have a right to privacy and you violated that trust. This shows a very large flaw in your character that is disturbing.

You are a public figure selling a product that is known. You need your name out there. For you to attempt to expose a fellow member should be grounds for you to be banned. At no time have I been abusive to you. I disagreed in a manner you didn't like and you feel the need to expose my real name? All other members are at risk of you now if they disagree with you and you find information on them. Not a good way for a man to comport himself in any culture. 

You are a man not to be trusted in any way. Once you lose your reputation, Sid, it's all over with decent readers. Many will applaud you. But gentleman never do what you just did. 
One more reason not to deal with Border Bows.

I bought my hex 6 online used because I didn't want to deal with you on a personal level. Turns out I was correct. You lack tact and basic goodness.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Sorry John
Can we back up a bit. I would like to pause you mid swan dive off the deepend here.
So whos privacy have i just violated then?
I dont have a customer on my lists called John Arther London.
I have never comunicated with you in private. In any way.
So where is the breach in confidenciality.
You bought the limbs used. So how do i know....
I just thought John Doe was too obvious. 
Anyhow. Nice to meet you John.
Again. I am Sid.
I am the guy you say has had a hand in designing a substancial flaw in our 17" riser. While refusing to accept we make a 19" with a window size that suits.
Refuses to accept there are gold, world level accolades to our name. While belitting the efforts of all those in second place.
Telling us our limbs are unstable. Delaminate and attack me personally.
There is only one other John i know that posts with a disregard as to how they are viewed by the public. While hiding behind a unknown location. And an internet alias. And he has been band from this forum and Tradtalk before.
That persons name was Stringwalker Jack.

But your not that guy.
So i suppose the similarities are only akin to a porchipine. Seriously prickly when threatened.
I dont feel your posts are a threat.
I find them interesting as to why someone would go out of thier way to insist on telling me my product is all wrong. Even though you own some...
Stringwalker Jack didnt like Uukhas BTW. 

This thread is getting interesting.
What motivates you John?


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I'm not chasing speed...if that is all that border limbs has to offer then I can clearly stick with conventional limbs that seem to be so successful with so many other archers...thanks keeshond for addressing the brace comment...I've read where many archers not that long ago were shooting 10 inches and higher of brace indoors for more forgiveness.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

stick monkey said:


> I'm not chasing speed...if that is all that border limbs has to offer then I can clearly stick with conventional limbs that seem to be so successful with so many other archers...thanks keeshond for addressing the brace comment...I've read where many archers not that long ago were shooting 10 inches and higher of brace indoors for more forgiveness.


What brace height did Horrice Ford recomend and ehat scores did he achieve with a longbow. (D section wood english longbow)


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

My advice for anyone wanting to upgrade or start out is yes buy what you desire but also what you can realistically afford, we do this sport to relax and to have FUN, the most expensive isn't and wont always the best choice because we all shoot differently and are at unique stages of development. 

In truth 95% of us would not get the full shooting potential out of the mid level limb let alone the high end limbs (myself included), those high end bows/limbs add a lot to feel good factor but very little in terms of extra points in a tourney. As I said we do this mostly for FUN and it's your hard earned money, owning a stunning bow you're proud of is for some as important as winning an important tourney.


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

Stephen Morley said:


> My advice for anyone wanting to upgrade or start out is yes buy what you desire but also what you can realistically afford, we do this sport to relax and to have FUN, the most expensive isn't and wont always the best choice because we all shoot differently and are at unique stages of development.
> 
> In truth 95% of us would not get the full shooting potential out of the mid level limb let alone the high end limbs (myself included), those high end bows/limbs add a lot to feel good factor but very little in terms of extra points in a tourney. As I said we do this mostly for FUN and it's your hard earned money, owning a stunning bow you're proud of is for some as important as winning an important tourney.


Yup. Can't agree with you more, Stephen.

'Each of us should get what we want, because we have the freedom of choice. Understand others have that same freedom, like we did.'

:RockOn:


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Yeah, after all this "info" i will stick lil longer with my ExPrimes. They are awesome fast and stable limbs, and i have pinpoint accuracy with them. Maybe switch with WiaWis next year after more feedback of fellow archers out there 
Anyway this was interesting thread.
Cheers fellows
remember, shoot straight


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> Barney, I didn't understand your last sentence when you asked what am I looking to gain that I feel I'm not getting now?
> 
> Sorry, i wasn't clear. I was asking DaemonXR.


It seems that he figured out whatever he needed to figure out.



> I test equipment and if I find it lacking for me I'll let others know.


And I'm grateful that you do! I'm very aware that many (including myself at times) fall into the mindset that _this one next thing is really going to make the difference._ Usually, that thought is mistaken. I've spent thousands buying bows simply figuring out what I really like, and what seems to work for me, for what I want to do. I like my bow. I like what it does. If other people are interested in my bow, I love talking about it, and sharing experiences with them. At the same time, I'm also very careful to be realistic about it. While I seem to be scoring better with it, overall, I also mention that it is different, and some people take to it, some don't. It has attributes. Whether those attributes do anything for you, or work against you, depends on what you're doing, and the particulars of how it works with the individual. Last thing I want is for somebody to spend a lot of money, regret it, because I gave the impression it was somehow going to work magic. Hence the common questions... "What are you looking to get that you're not getting now?" If the answer to the question is more accuracy, or a flatter trajectory, I'm honest with them, you can likely find a way to do that with what you've got, and that answer is most likely different arrows and simply getting familiar with the equipment, or learning different methods, either in form, aiming systems, whatever.



> I also look around me at what others are having success with in competitive venues. I only care about making the best scores I can. I don't think most archers care about that. This is okay and why speed claims for limbs sell product.


With the type of shooting I do, some of the best archers I've met and had the honor to shoot with, who are competitive on a national level, use a wide variety of equipment. Sometimes it rotates for an individual. The only consistent thing I've noticed for the top shooters who shoot non-olympic recurves, is that they've got high mass bows, long risers, and when allowed, the longest allowed stabilizers. I don't poll them constantly on what they're using now, but I've seen top shooters absolutely kill it with Border limbs. Then again, I've seen top shooters dominate with limbs made by others. Honestly, it is my opinion, qualified as not an expert, that the highest variable in the equation that determines accuracy is the shooter, and the _particular combination of how well the equipment works with the individual shooter_ follows shortly thereafter. I went to a 'traditional rendezvous' where there were more than a hundred competitors, 3 shooters using Border limbs, and those 3 shooters took the three highest scores at the shoot, across all classes, by a reasonable margin. Would I hold that up as evidence of superior accuracy over conventional limbs? Would I claim this as an indictment of conventional limb profiles? Hardly, but it was kind of cool, from a novelty standpoint. 

I really do believe that, for some people, they might really just not work very well from an accuracy standpoint. You've done numerical comparisons, and while I could point out that doing comparisons while knowing what you're shooting introduces the possibility of bias, that doesn't really matter, does it, because to shoot well, confidence is key. If it's not working, even if you're giving it an honest effort, why do the square hole round peg thing. Do what works, regardless of what anybody claims reality to be.



> Confidence in your equipment choice is more important than anything else in the end. I don't have that with the three sets of Border limbs I've tried over the years. I own one set.


Hey, you beat me to that! That's what happens when I respond a section at a time. I don't have enough mental concentration to read the whole thing, and formulate a response. I'm on the same page, and it sounds like you've made a rationale, fair, sensible choice, based on an honest evaluation. Can't ask for more than that.



> They are fast. They also have a bad reputation for delaminating. But to be honest I've never had this happen nor have I personally witnessed it, but my friends have.


I've heard horror stories to, and I would be B.S.ing you if I told you I never had concerns. I've seen it too, though there have been extenuating circumstances involved. To be fair, the limbs were replaced immediately. It would make me feel better if I had never heard or witnessed of such, but I think, as a company, they stand behind their product.[/QUOTE]



> I do shoot the lightest arrows I can make fly well for hunting or target archery outdoors.


Me too, with the qualification that it feels good (doesn't give me a lot of vibrations back) and is quiet.



> So we have different criteria for a bow. I do hunt and I do shoot targets. The Border is a great hunting limb.


Me too, and in what I do, I like shooting targets with a hunting bow. I have no rational reason, I just like it. Maybe when I want to really get seriously competitive, if that ever happens, I'll investigate 'target' rigs.



> In my opinion, and in the court of public opinion among those shooting in competitions, the super-curve is not the best choice. The proof is in the number of top shooters using them. Sid's list of non-winners aside, not many shooters use this style of limb because it's not better and most think it's not even as good.


I can believe that this may be true for many individuals, but having met some who have shot incredibly well, winning national titles, and at times have said they really liked their Border limbs, I think there's room for personal wiggle 

Something that I would put forward as something reconciling this, is the fact that in many types of shooting, the technical properties of a Super Recurve which are often touted as advantages, may do little or nothing, or impede the performance _of a particular archer_. If the archer is already comfortable and shoots well with a holding weight in the mid forties or more, they can get the really good cast and a low drag coefficient with conventional limbs by simply dropping arrow weight. Some archers seem to benefit from the smoothness of the draw, in terms of finding it easier to relax through the draw, but some archers don't take to it. It's not a matter of the limbs being better or worse, but rather just finding what works for them. If they're already used to the draw cycle of a conventional limb profile, and expand consistently, and don't get any benefit from hitting the target harder, or being able to use a lighter draw weight for a given arrow, it would seems that the SR would offer them nothing of obvious value, and the very fact that the draw force curve is _different from the characteristics they've already used to ingrain their shot sequence_ may be of some detriment.

The other thing, which I think gets missed, is that it has been pointed out that tuning the Super Recurve is different. Exactly how, and to what extent, I don't feel qualified to address it. I have noticed that the ILF version seems to be more prone to show 'riser rock' when out of the optimum tiller setting, or when drawing at different string locations, though it is interesting that the bolt down version seems less variable in this regard. I don't know exactly what it means, but I do know that some archers who are masters at playing the barebow game intentionally 'detune' their rigs to get particular arrow behavior. Perhaps that could contribute to experiences. Dunno. 

For me, though, when I suck, I replay what Alan Eagleton told me when I was fiddling with my Covert Hunter after a pretty lousy 900 round. "Are you wondering what's up with your bow? I'll give you a clue. It's not the bow." The other thing that seems to help, is if I just pretend that Sandy McCain is watching


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

"what am I looking to gain that I feel I'm not getting now"

I dont feel i am not getting performance out of my current bow. I really feel that my bow is super fast, stable and accurate shooting platform.
I just ask what i would gain if transition to HEX and this is very simple question that any manufacturer should be able to answer in order to sell me his awesome next product. If that change is miniscule in speed gain (and it is), while sacrifising stability and long range accuracy its not worthy of considering.
I just watched some of Jinkster videos and i noticed extreme limb tip resonance and back&forth vibration which i didnt see on any of high end conventional carbon limbs from WinWin or Hoyt. What i think is that HEX limbs work pretty much as bows with siyahs (which explains DFC), which than again work as lever on top of the working part of the limb and stressing that area much more while it adds unnecessary weight on the limb tips. Hence these strange oscilations.
This is just my observation
Shoot straight folks


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> "what am I looking to gain that I feel I'm not getting now"
> 
> I dont feel i am not getting performance out of my current bow. I really feel that my bow is super fast, stable and accurate shooting platform.
> I just ask what i would gain if transition to HEX and this is very simple question that any manufacturer should be able to answer in order to sell me his awesome next product. If that change is miniscule in speed gain (and it is), while sacrifising stability and long range accuracy its not worthy of considering.
> ...


Kinda sounds like your mind was made up before you started.

I take it you have seen w&w winex video of NP movement showing limb flap!
And your statement of long range accuracy is based on what?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

https://www.instagram.com/p/yjBSZTgpzX/


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

http://www.archeryreports.com/index...imbs/item/winwin-inno-cxt.html?category_id=88

Here is a bow test trigger shot where the author states that the bow looses about 4-6 fps when not trigger shot.
At 28" the author is getting 192fps from 9gpp. Trigger shot.
You can say loose 4fps if finger shot. Putting it at 188fps. 
DaemonXR is proposing well over 200fps with 8.1gpp

If you look at my link we have a standard recurve at 9gpp at 28" at 180fps. Which i will conceed is a average bow. Where the primes well above average.
But that still doesnt deny the that 10+ fps isnt significant.
How about shooting X10s at the same speed as ACEs pound for pound.

Thats significant. No doubt you will tell me its not


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

http://www.blackysbowreviews.com/ilf-bows/win-apecs/apecs.htm
191fps trigger
186finger shot

There are more test in there.
Bf extremes at 194 trigger shot.

All 28" 9gpp


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

And just for fits and giggles. An imperial clout here in the UK. Is at 140 yards.
A single compound has achieved a 6 gold end before but no one else appart from one lady with hex limbs. The gold is 18" in diam and sits flat on the ground.
You try getting 6 out of 6 on a 18" flat horizontal target at 140 yards.
And your telling me hex limbs are not accurate.
No single string bow has ever achieved this in the UK. And only one compound has.
140 yards is some distance. Hex7s no less. The biggest hex limb of them all


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Following text is written in very calm decent and friendly way to avoid any confusion.
Sid. When I ask you what and why, you hardly answer me and to be honest I would really like to see these limbs performance, no BS involved. But now you are spitting aces from your sleve as mamba when found yourself attacked in even slight way. You, as archery equipment manufacturer use strange order when comunicating with ppl on internet forums and I cant shake that arrogant note in your writing which does not belong here. I believe your ego is standing in your way to much. 
Further more you are comparing "cheap to me" Winex limbs with ExPrimes regarding tip flap? I mean really, if these are same or better than ExPrimes than i wouldnt spend almoust double money on later ones.
To continue on arrow speed, you cant be serious to compare 38-40# limbs with 45# limbs regarding speed? Am i missing something?
As i stated mine ExPrimes are 45# limbs @ 28 1/2" (well, a tad above AMO standard) of draw and i am getting over 200 fps with 360ish grain arrow. My limbs sitting flush with bolt and riser shooting Formula 8125G 16 strands string. Yeah i consider that a fast rig.
You have a wrong way to assume you know with whom you are comunicating, and what is even worse you assume you know my thoughts about subject which is very wrong. As mechanical engineer professionaly and involved in archery since 80ies i find my self to be "tough nut" regarding tecnical data, specs and numbers which you fail to provide except some generic graph from your site.
Further more, as archery equipment manufacturer, you are using too much of someone elses informations from world wide web which is lame.If i were a bowyer i would do my best "in house tests" to introduce potential customers with all relevant data regarding my products and not arguing with peoples on forums.
My asumptions are based on my personal experiences, internet search and talk with my colleague archers in my country and abroad.
I cant tell that this is only thread involving your equipment that i base my assumptions on.
About long range at 140 yards, well that gal is one awesome archer. Kudos to her.
And yes i say 10 fps IS significant. Congrats. Keep up with a good work.
Cheers and shoot straight


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

By the way this is Sheldon Gannon video showing 38# ExPrimes shooting above 200fps at 29inch of draw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfdXdtoMOSI


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I have this..."Acquaintance"...who could be..."A Friend"....but is more like..."A Kindred Spirit"...because I do believe he's waiting (and would like) for me to get serious regarding...

*"Me Actually Competing"* (which I never will again)

He's an excellent archer....I'd rate him in the top 3% of the 100's that show too the (2) organized events I attend each year. 

We don't speak much...or for very long...but when we do?...it's all meat.

We did have one conversation that lasted about 15-20 minutes where a 3rd party was in the mix and in that time?...he taught us both more than most will ever learn in a lifetime about tapping into the multi-tasking, lower levels of the minds consciousness and applying it to an intuitive aiming system....with solid form....and I (and the other) listened intently because many times he's won those 2 annual events and too this day more often than not places in the top 3.

Me?...I could learn far more from him than anything I might NEVER teach him...so historically?...I always kind of throw stuff at him in passing...(hoping for another "Magic Moment" like the intuitive aiming talk)...but 9 out of 10 times?...his response to me is always the same....worse yet?...it pretty much always applies....and that response is...

*"IT'S NOT THE BOW!"*

To the point that it's almost become a game of sorts between us where I the student?....now play...."Stump The Teacher"...in an effort to try and get....some other answer from him where I really thought I finally had him cornered and whined that...

*"I discovered my Kraken Longbow is just too Heavy of a Draw Weight for me."*

and with a twinkle in his eye and a smile crawling across his face?....he responded with....

*"It's STILL...NOT The Bow!"*

now while I knew he was definitely "Stretching His Mantra" a bit?....before I opened my big fat stupid mouth I managed to think for a second where I concluded?..

*"And He's STILL...100% CORRECT...It's Not The Bow!"*

it was my lacking physical abilities to truly and fully master it. 

Now here's where some who are paying attention might ask...

*"Well now wait just a minute here Jinksey!...cause aren't your Kraken Longbow and your Covert Hunter within a pound of each other in Draw Weight?"*

Where as a matter of fact?...YES....yes they are...but here's the TWO BIG differences....

1. Pound For Pound?...My CH's Hex7 Limbs are storing close too 1 1/2 X's the energy of my Krakens D (when strung) Longbow which in turn?...enables my Covert Hunter to throw a 570gr/12.7GPP arrow at just under 180fps while my Kraken throws a 435gr/9.4GPP arrow at 171fps...do the math?...and we're talking a *3.3GPP HEAVIER ARROW* getting launched nearly 10fps Faster at?....*"The Same Poundage"*...and while that's well beyond a pretty serious advantage?...here's where the really big difference comes into play...

2. When I'm anchored solidly at full draw with the Covert Hunter?...when I expand to loose the shot it feels like I'm pulling through a 40# bow with a soft, butter smooth back end that makes pulling through any other type of 40# bow?....feel like I'm playing Tug-O-War and my two Cur dogs are on the other end of the rope...yet I'm shooting a 45# Hex7 Covert Hunter.

I'll end with 4 thoughts.... 

Thought #1: I think most who express angst and frustration with the latest series of Hex7 limbs do so because they are chasing speed (and running into a multitude of tuning and bow behavior problems) rather than enjoying the great benefits of tapping into and fully exploiting the tremendous class shattering power these latest Hex7 series limbs offer.

Thought #2: I now realize why often times in the past the Sid's seemed a bit pigheaded to me...they earned it.

Thought #3: I now also realize why Border Products seemed to command price points that leaned far too the proud side...they're worth it.

Thought #4: I finally stumped my Kindred Spirit Acquaintance....because he's consistently gotten "One Word Wrong" in his Mantra...that should read...

*"It's...NEVER...The Bow!"* :laugh:

Because the only thing these inadamant objects we call "Bows" do?...is store power to launch arrows...where Borders Hex7 series limbs store more of it pound for pound than any other limbs out there which leads me to my...

*Final Thought:*

While no archer could ever blame their bow for a loss?...they could blame themselves for not recognizing and exploiting their bows potential too the fullest...and this is where "Bows Can Best Bows"...but guess what?....

It's still?...NEVER....the bow.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

And Sid, your normal answer on my question would be: With your setup of 45#@28 1/2" of draw length with HEX xy limb on ILF riser, you would gain xxy feet per seconds without sacrificing accuracy. I would be happy with that answer and continue to consider your product.
i dont like BS arguing on forums or elsewhere.
Greetings
daemon


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

I've had about every limb and riser combo you can dream up,and I always go back to my hex limb setups.i notice definite increase in speed and pushing pretty heavy arrow is my goal and they do it best for me . Accuracy wise the smooth back end makes me shot better


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Breathn said:


> Accuracy wise the smooth back end makes me shot better


Watching DFC of HEX i can understand that, though i do not find hard to hold mine 45# at anchor at all. I am more interested in what happen after release.
Main problem is you can choose any combo at pro shop and try before you buy but not with these coz they are not available in any pro shop at all. So all at your disposal is hear say.
I hope this make me very clear. Spending 600-700 GBP on something you dont know will it suit you or not is not something i will take a risk.
Cheers


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

45lbs is 45lbs. There is no hiding from that.
Getting through expansion is more of a happy experience as the bow feels like it falls back into anchor. That is a fun experience.
There is the arguement that a 1/4 of draw length change shot to shot. Means 1/2lbs of draw weight change at 2lbs per inch. While a 1/4" of creep with a weight gain of 0.5lbs means your holding weight climbs by 0.125lbs
This should equate to less variation leaving the bow.

There are lots of differences other than speed. And what difficult to answer is speed due to uncalibrated chronos.

Within 1 fps or 2. If the Grains per pound are the same. Two bows of the same design should shoot the same speed irrespective of draw weight.
A 30lbs covert should achieve approx the same arrow speed as a 60lbs if the arrow weight is relative to the poundage. Which is what GPP means.

The down side of gpp is that it doesnt take into consideration. The stored energy when look at comparisons of minimum GPPs.
For example. You can dry fire a 10lbs bow. But you cant dry fire a 100lbs bow. You can dry fire a 50lbs bow from 7" of draw. But you cant dry fire it from 30
This is due to the bow being able to suffer a set fixed amount of energy hitting it. 
Take a conceptual amount of 20ft/lbs

Higher energy bows require higher efficencies gained with higher arrow weights. To avoid over cooking the dry fire limits.
So if you take an example of a 40lbs bow shooting like a 50lbs bow. Then consider your GPPs as it it were a 50lbs bow. Even though your not holding 50lbs.
Which is why the whats the fastest you can shoot is such an awkward question.
We estimate 230fps irrespective of design is about the limits of dry fire.
220 is still shortening your bows life.
The difference is what arrow weight keeps you inside those speeds.
Yes you can acheive higher. Just dont expect your bow to last.
So we might be able to get an X10 arrow to 215fps. Which at 8.5gpp seems healthy most bows will be achieving this with 6.5-7gpp with ACE arrows. Which means both bows are under equal stress. Even though the GPP is not equal.
But neither is the forgiveness of a heavier arrow travelling at the same speeds. Pound for pound

We also understand your point about not being in shops.
We offer a 28 day refund if the limbs dont meet your expectations.
There is a caviat to this. To prevent everyone asking for a no obligation custom made order with no intention of keeping them. (Tyre kickers) we dont refund the postage.
That goes for a full bow. Or just a set of limbs.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> And Sid, your normal answer on my question would be: With your setup of 45#@28 1/2" of draw length with HEX xy limb on ILF riser, you would gain xxy feet per seconds without sacrificing accuracy. I would be happy with that answer and continue to consider your product.
> i dont like BS arguing on forums or elsewhere.
> Greetings
> daemon


Thats legally binding. And if you dont achieve that. Because of rational i'll never be able to get the the bottom of over the internet.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Fair enough Sid.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

DaemonXR said:


> I hope this make me very clear. Spending 600-700 GBP on something you dont know will it suit you or not is not something i will take a risk.
> Cheers


I can fully understand and appreciate your hesitation...45 years ago I wasn't too keen on dropping what was money earned from mowing a dozen large lawns to upgrade my wood decked, clay wheeled skateboard too ones like my slightly wealthier (and far more spoiled) friends had where they were sporting skateboards with fiberglass decks, Chicago trucks and urethane wheels...and of course none of the spoiled brats would let me ride theirs so?...I continued to scratch my way down streets and hills on clay wheels until?...I was down too the bearings.

Bummed on a Saturday?....the older hot chick next door surfer boyfriend showed up and saw me depressed out front....asked me what the matter was?....told'em my clay wheeled skateboard was shot and just tossed it...and with that?...he smiled and lifted the hood (which was the trunk) of his VW Bug and handed me his Bahne Skateboard....Fiberglass Deck...Chicago Trucks...Urethane Wheels....telling me to keep it until I get a new one but he expected it back it good shape...

and I spent almost all I had buying my own the very next day!...as in....WOW! 

History repeats itself....where I spent the last 2-3 years doing all I could to not buy a Hex7 equipped Covert Hunter where this?....










played out much like my skateboard experience where in both instances?...the only thing I was disappointed in?...was myself...

for not getting one sooner.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Jinkster, i can feel child happines in your words  Nothing can beat that feeling. I am glad you like your Border.
I am kinda different animal and for sure will not toss my older equipment i enjoy shooting all time. I am stacking them to my wall, what is even worse i am also sometimes stack spare parts for older equipment in case it fail or broke  if i find them on e-bay or elswhere.
i will sure get another bow. And another after that. Yeah i cant hold on one. I allready have armory of bows and crossbows in my house. Every part is a memory to me. I am even thinking on UUKHA VX1000Xcurve with UProlite riser. Hmmm. Maybe after new year or so. My house need some investment on my priority list


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

DaemonXR said:


> Watching DFC of HEX i can understand that, though i do not find hard to hold mine 45# at anchor at all. I am more interested in what happen after release.
> Main problem is you can choose any combo at pro shop and try before you buy but not with these coz they are not available in any pro shop at all. So all at your disposal is hear say.
> I hope this make me very clear. Spending 600-700 GBP on something you dont know will it suit you or not is not something i will take a risk.
> Cheers


Yeah well the trad world is little less able to try some of the custom stuff at a shop per say unless you go to that bowyer's shop .For that I'd guess your better off buying something you can try somewhere or maybe getting to a shoot where someone has one to try on occasion.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> By the way this is Sheldon Gannon video showing 38# ExPrimes shooting above 200fps at 29inch of draw.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfdXdtoMOSI


Yes the mass of a solid carbon limb shows that limb mass is a constant reminder that even with more stored energy you will see an impact in speed.
If you have a look at our chart on page5 again. You will see speeds at 27 and 28". So you can see what 1" of draw does.
If that arrow is 29" long. Then it looks like he is pulling it to 29.5" 
Having said that there is no figure on point weight or total arrow mass that i saw. So id hazard a guess that at 29" in length he has about 8.5gpp.
So take a 202, remove 1.5" worth of extra stored energy and remove 0.5gpp worth of arrow mass. And you will find yourself back at blackies numbers without the trigger advantage.

The reason for this is we have the lightest limb constructions that we have measured. And we have the highest stored energy.

An example of this is we are 21% lighter at the limb butt. And 32% lighter at the limb tip that the UX1000 X Ccurve limbs. While our hex6 limbs also store 8.8% more energy.
The hex7.5 store alot more than that.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1653392

This might give you a bench mark to get a feeling of where we are


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

DaemonXR said:


> Jinkster, i can feel child happines in your words  Nothing can beat that feeling. I am glad you like your Border.
> I am kinda different animal and for sure will not toss my older equipment i enjoy shooting all time. I am stacking them to my wall, what is even worse i am also sometimes stack spare parts for older equipment in case it fail or broke if i find them on e-bay or elswhere.
> i will sure get another bow. And another after that. Yeah i cant hold on one. I allready have armory of bows and crossbows in my house. Every part is a memory to me. I am even thinking on UUKHA VX1000Xcurve with UProlite riser. Hmmm. Maybe after new year or so. My house need some investment on my priority list


Well?...I can't argue that after going through about 40 bows in 5 years ranging from an American Elm Holmegaard Style Self-Bow too full blown ILF BB Target rigs and everything in between?...well?....lemme list the ones I can remember to give you a clearer picture here...

I arrived here with my old 62"/54# Bob Lee Take-Down Hunter....(which I went too 46# and then 42# limbs on)...










I thought I was the shizzle when I scored a R/D Longbow from a local Bowyer...My Bushmen "American Native"....










and then I got real bold by deciding to drop $150 to see what this ILF stuff was all about on a used Hoyt Excel....that came with SF GSF limbs...that I upgraded to SF Elite limbs...and an ortho grip and some other goodies...










and then I got on a bit of a Longbow Kick...where I scored a Falco Trophy...cause the wood looked pretty...










Then I picked up the American Elm Self-Bow and a Tolke WhipXX...










then somewhere along the line sold my Falco Trophy and Bob Lee and wound up with a custom ordered from Estonia Falco Force Longbow and a 2013 Bear Super Kodiak in Grayling Green...to go with my Bushmen American Native...










and then things started moving so fast I kind of lost track...



















next thing ya know?...they're growing from my trees! LOL!....










continued...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

and all sorts in between!!!....

PSE ZONE w/ Samick Universals...










'65 Bear Polar...










13" Morrison ILF w/ Sky limbs...










Gillo Ghost (limbs and all)...










21st Century Longbow..










WF19...










DAS Elite w/ Robertfishes Custom Limbs....










27" Gillo G1 w/ Hoyt F7's...










Bushmen "American Bushmen" (Longcurve)...










and about 18 other bows and configurations of bows I'm sure my old mind missed...so?...

To say I have Child Like Enthusiasm in finding "One Bow" that not only fits my desires and absolutely blows away anything I ever owned before?...yep...LOL!


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> next thing ya know?...they're growing from my trees! LOL!....


This still ring in my mind 
Jinkster, Man your bows, its so impressive. I am speechless.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Sid, well i am glad that you have 28 days return policy in case these does not suit me. You know even I would like to have a special dream bow.
Now i wonder what prices would be for my country if/when i order?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> Sid, well i am glad that you have 28 days return policy in case these does not suit me. You know even I would like to have a special dream bow.
> Now i wonder what prices would be for my country if/when i order?


Ping an email to [email protected] he can answer that question for you. If you proceed after that. Its utterly up to you.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Borderbows said:


> Ping an email to [email protected] he can answer that question for you. If you proceed after that. Its utterly up to you.


Thanx for reply. Just to inform you, some of pictures does not load on your site.
Cheers


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> Thanx for reply. Just to inform you, some of pictures does not load on your site.
> Cheers


Cheers. There are a few things we need to fix
One is floor space... we need new premisies with more floorspace and more electricity too! :-(


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

DaemonXR said:


> This still ring in my mind
> Jinkster, Man your bows, its so impressive. I am speechless.


I guess the point I'm trying to make to you here is this....

Imagine the time, effort and money I'd of saved if I'd stopped buying and selling 20 bows ago and got this...




















I has more class via craftsmanship & quality...and pound for pound?...way more power and performance...than any other bow I've owned and for bonus points?....

shoots groups for me as well as any of the low poundage, heavy mass riser, 68" long target rigs I've owned and does so with much heavier arrows I haven't even put feathers on yet.

Up until 3-4 weeks ago?...I had 6 bows hanging...2 have already been sold...where I now have 4 left...and 2 of those are for sale...which will leave me with but 2 bows...this Covert Hunter and?...a 55 Year old Drake Hunter Flight that's worth far more to me than the $200 it might fetch....now here's some others I missed and left out...

a Big Jim Thunderchild TD...










a '69 Bear Super Kodiak Phenolic I had refinished...










a Big Jim Buffalo Magnum TD...










a 25" W&W InnoMax with Ex Power Limbs (I machined a BB weight for)...










a Bear Green Stripe Riser w/ Brandon Stahls R.O. #2 Custom Limbs...










a Bear Red Stripe with 3 sets of Limbs!










and a Blackbear Warf with Blackmax Limbs...










(which reminds me...I forgot...I still have one of those laying around that I machined a bear logo for...and Robertfishes Limbs waiting for it to be finished painted)










and I can honestly say that for me and the type of archery I enjoy?...none of these bows could hold a candle too the Covert Hunter adorning my wall right now.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

I got your point Jinks. You certainly had helluva journey trough all of this.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I envy your collection...the bows you have had experience with...but I recall with almost every one of these bows you showed the same enthusiasm as you do now for the covert Hunter...I'll admit there is always something great about a new bow...til there is nothing good anymore...I know because I have had several great bows and none of them could beat my target panic...the one thing that did break it was my continued shooting with ONE bow...when I had several to choose from...i would shoot each of them very good for a limited time and when the target panic beat me...I would switch to another bow and it would be a new honeymoon with moments of greatness...then it would show its evil face again...I began to sell off everything...even my beloved toelke longbow and uukha upro riser and hx10 limbs...which for me was the best shooting bow ever in my possession...it was not till I put all my devotion into one bow that I feel beat my target panic...thank goodness...this bow is a win win inno max...and I don't feel the need to replace it...if I did it would be another uukha.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

stick monkey said:


> I envy your collection...the bows you have had experience with...but I recall with almost every one of these bows you showed the same enthusiasm as you do now for the covert Hunter...I'll admit there is always something great about a new bow...til there is nothing good anymore...I know because I have had several great bows and none of them could beat my target panic...the one thing that did break it was my continued shooting with ONE bow...when I had several to choose from...i would shoot each of them very good for a limited time and when the target panic beat me...I would switch to another bow and it would be a new honeymoon with moments of greatness...then it would show its evil face again...I began to sell off everything...even my beloved toelke longbow and uukha upro riser and hx10 limbs...which for me was the best shooting bow ever in my possession...it was not till I put all my devotion into one bow that I feel beat my target panic...thank goodness...this bow is a win win inno max...and I don't feel the need to replace it...if I did it would be another uukha.


And I would agree with you on the following points...

***Yes...it seems I always have been enthusiastic about reporting on new too me bows...I believe this was in large part for the simple reason that as I worked my way through this progression?...with few exceptions I was in fact upgrading to more expensive, higher end selections in a world where "Bad Bows" simply aren't tolerated...yet some were simply Icons made by Masters of the craft...How could I not be excited about reporting on a new DAS Elite?...(one of only 65 ever made)?....what was there to hate about W&W Inno?

*** Where to this day I still have folks walk up to me at shoots with a Morrison XD21 in their hand thanking me....and others with WF19's...and yes...while some of the oldies but goodies were lacking in performance?...they made up for in class and character....what "Bad" dare I speak of such?

Where I disagree with the point you're attempting to form here is this....

Of all those bows?...many of which were test shot over a chronograph?...

NONE OF THEM....NOT A ONE....even came close too the performance levels of this new class of bow called a "Super Recurve" 

where mine just happens to be a Borders Hex7 Covert Hunter.

So while many if not all of my prior bows were very close in performance?...this bow truly is a very different and extremely aggressive...animal...and I've owned no other even close to being..."Like It".

That's why.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

As everybody are different individuals...we are looking for different things in archery...I'm looking for smooth and forgiving...I personally don't find speed forgiving...and I am glad you love your covert hunter...but I am confident that border is not for me...the problem for most people is that we don't have access to the latest and greatest...we buy blind and your enthusiasm may push people to buy something that they are not equipped to handle. I know others appreciate your opinion and reviews of bows but in all fairness...they are just a matter of opinion. Hopefully everyone finds what they want out of archery and their bow without the lacking feeling that you have had with many of these great bows.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Some great bows there Bill 

I too went thru walls of bows before I landed on the CH as my go to bow 

Happy shooting


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> I dont feel i am not getting performance out of my current bow. I really feel that my bow is super fast, stable and accurate shooting platform.


If a smoother draw on the back end doesn't do anything for you, and you don't have any interest in a heavier arrow weight, my best guess is that you're probably good with what you've got.



> I just watched some of Jinkster videos and i noticed extreme limb tip resonance and back&forth vibration which i didnt see on any of high end conventional carbon limbs from WinWin or Hoyt. What i think is that HEX limbs work pretty much as bows with siyahs (which explains DFC), which than again work as lever on top of the working part of the limb and stressing that area much more while it adds unnecessary weight on the limb tips. Hence these strange oscilations.


They're the same oscillations as a 'regular' recurve, but they are also different.

You're a mechanical engineer, so I'm probably not telling you much you haven't already noticed. When the string runs to brace height and trys to stop the limbs, the contact point is much lower on the limb. That means that it is farther from the limb tips. That means that the inertia of the limb tips applies more torque on the limb in relation to the fulcrum, which is where the string makes contact with the limb. It does in fact oscillate with more motion at the limb tips, though it does so at a very low frequency, and with the correct setup, it is neither loud, nor uncomfortable.

Unlike bows with Siyahs, the entire limb flexes, nor do the limbs have additional mass to do so. So, unlike a static recurve with siyahs, it doesn't have to increase flexure more towards the riser (requiring more limb movement), nor does it decrease efficiency due to extra mass. Now, the limb tips themselves do have to move a little more than a conventional recurve, because they end up that much more forward, however the limb tips themselves are also unusually light, so, it kind of washes out, as far as I can tell. I don't think Border's Super Recurves are any more or less efficient if you keep arrow mass and store energy proportional, or at least significantly enough to make it a deciding feature either way, and in your application, I don't think it'd matter at all, since you don't really care about energy delivery.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

stick monkey said:


> As everybody are different individuals...we are looking for different things in archery...I'm looking for smooth and forgiving...I personally don't find speed forgiving...


Neither do I...hence the title of this thread...*"My 180fps Hex7 Covert Hunter"*



stick monkey said:


> and I am glad you love your covert hunter...but I am confident that border is not for me...


Have you tried one?



stick monkey said:


> the problem for most people is that we don't have access to the latest and greatest...we buy blind and your enthusiasm may push people to buy something that they are not equipped to handle. I know others appreciate your opinion and reviews of bows but in all fairness...they are just a matter of opinion.


Actually?..."In all Fairness"?....my reviews are far more than "just a matter of opinion"...they are scales, weights and specs along with a comprehensive description of what to expect feel and performance wise along with audio/visual shoot videos and chronograph results....I'd say that's quite a bit more than....."just opinion" 



stick monkey said:


> Hopefully everyone finds what they want out of archery and their bow without the lacking feeling that you have had with many of these great bows.


There are many ways to say things....unfortunately the above is worded about as negatively as it possibly could be....where it could also be said....

*"I found very few if any of the great bows I owned and shot to be...'Lacking Feeling'...what I did find was the Hex7 Covert Hunter had an abundance of it along with far more power per pound of draw weight."*

I'm only good at picking up on statements such as the above because I spent 2-3 years making up the same lame excuses to justify not shelling out to own a Covert Hunter.

Let's also remember I was looking at a $2,400 Blacktail Elite when this used $1,400 Covert Hunter popped up and figured if there ever was a time I should at least "Try One?"...so I did....where in retrospect?...I guess you could say the Covert Hunter saved me $1,000! :laugh:


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

@Barney
Very thorough explanation, but dont you dare to say that i dont need one more bow in my stable


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

BarneySlayer said:


> If a smoother draw on the back end doesn't do anything for you, and you don't have any interest in a heavier arrow weight, my best guess is that you're probably good with what you've got.


Exactly, I've not shot the Hex7 but I have shot the Hex6 for over a year and found it added nothing in regards to extra points on my score card, personally for me I shot the CV-H conventional limbs slightly better, 10 points more on Field rounds. 

I tested MK1440's next to Uukha1000's a few weeks ago, 1000's are very similar to Hex6 draw feel. stiff at the start and softens up at anchor, the difference being the MK's are smooth all the way through the draw, it's a feeling I actually prefer. 

Hex7 a great looking limb and obviously some Archers love them, I just can't help feeling the supercurves are a design solution to a problem that never existed. Some archers are always looking for the next best thing, so Border will always have a market.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

In some cases It's not about looking for the next best thing 

For me it's about being able to get the performance of a much heavier bow from a light one 

Also like all things in life feel for some comes into play 

Meaning an ugly stick (cheap Fiberglas rod) will catch a fish as well as a high end graphite rod will but I prefer the FEEL of the graphite rod 

Same can be said of many things from cars to bikes 

A Yugo will get you to point a .... but the Porsche makes the ride a little more interesting


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

JParanee said:


> A Yugo will get you to point a ....


Now that's debatable.  

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Actually?..."In all Fairness"?....my reviews are far more than "just a matter of opinion"...they are scales, weights and specs along with a comprehensive description of what to expect feel and performance wise along with audio/visual shoot videos and chronograph results....I'd say that's quite a bit more than....."just opinion"


Actually JINKS, while I enjoy reading your "reviews," I would agree that they are much more about *"opinion"* than *"review"*.

Yes, while your reviews do involve weights, scales, specs, videos, chronographs, and descriptions, they are almost always used to confirm a preconceived notion of what you *WANT* your new toy to be, not just what it *IS*. 

In other words, when you bought a vintage Bear, whatever the results of your tests happened to be, that is exactly (and coincidentally) what you were always looking for out of a bow. When you purchased a high end target rig, that was exactly (and coincidentally) what you were always looking for out of a bow. Same was true for almost every bow you've ever "reviewed." Now that you are enamored with the Covert Hunter, everything the Covert Hunter does, is exactly (and coincidentally) what you have always dreamed about having in a bow. When your new toy is slow, you insist that slow is best for you. When your new toy is long, long is best for you. When your new toy is short, short is best for you. When your new toy is fast, fast is best for you. When your new toy is a recurve, recurves are best for you. When your new toy is a longbow, longbows are best for you. When your new bow is a hybrid, hybrids are best for you. When your new bow is beautiful custom, beautiful customs are best for you. When your new toy is a WARF, basic no frills function is best for you. See the pattern? 

I actually hope the CH is the last bow you will ever buy. I hope it truly is everything you say it is, and will never change your mind. I hope everyone finds that particular bow, I know I did. Heck, I haven't seriously considered a new bow in almost a decade now. Surely you have to understand why folks are questioning whether this will be any different.

Just my opinion, take it for what you will.

:thumbs_up

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gentlefolk?...what I see of the acceptance of "Super Recurve" limbs in the two very distinct venues of Hunters & Competitors is this...

*The Hunters:* "The Lions Share" of which readily and rapidly embraced the revolutionary big hook limbs....after all?...having access and availability to limbs that no longer required that the bow hunting archer pay close attention too keeping arrow weights in the sub 10GPP range *"or suffer lackluster performance trajectory wise"* in a world where arrow durability and developed energy counts as much as accuracy yet still maintain a level of ethical accuracy in an environment completely devoid of any yardage markers....where for archers who thought and think like that?...the powerful performance of "Super Recurve Limbs" was just this side of a Gift from God.

Where for the other bow hunting archers who chose to follow the conventional wisdom that the flatter trajectory of lighter, faster flying arrows equaled a more accurate hence more deadlier them?....Super Recurve Limbs proved to be just shy of a curse from Satan leaving them with fluttering limbs filled with shock and vibration of all that power and energy that failed to travel with their light, fast arrows remaining left behind in what was now their loud, unruly bow along with a sick feeling in their gut regarding how much they spent on all this unpleasantness that seemed impossible to tune away where fortunately?...this approach, mindset and associated sour results are diminishing in numbers as those who are willing to depart from conventional wisdom continue to exploit and display the prime inherent virtue of Super Recurve Limbs which is?...

*"THEIR VASTLY SUPERIOR LEVEL OF ENERGY STORAGE PER POUND of DRAW WEIGHT"*

Where I couldn't be more pleased knowing that I now own a 60"/45# rig that feels like I'm shooting a 64"/40# rig and preforms like a 62"/55# rig belting out over 40FTLBS of K.E. leaving me with enough bow power to cleanly harvest anything walking the North American Continent...(should the need/opportunity arise)...I'm thrilled...then again?...I'm shooting 570gr/12.7GPP arrows at just under 180FPS....off a very well behaved hunting quiet bow.

*The Competitors:* Looking back?...Too me?...these competitive archers are both Heroes & Villains in that....

*"The Heroes":* Were the upper crust competitors who based on competitive dedication and a burning desire to be the best shelled out their hard earned and became some of the first to buy, try and report.

*"The Villains":* Were many of those very same upper crust competitors who based on competitive dedication and a burning desire to be the best shelled out their hard earned and?....

Refused to cut the cord with the conventional competitive wisdom that a lighter arrow is a faster, flatter flying, winning arrow where for them?...

The first thing they did was find out what bare minimum GPP was required by Borders to remain within warranty specifications and then?.....they shod their new and expensive super recurve limbs with the latest in zero stretch string materials and then?...

*"A String-Walking They Went"*

Now?...is it really any wonder why such competitive archers wound up rendering foul reports and opinions of their super recurve limbs?...furthermore?...is it really any wonder why some of the same ultimately suffered catastrophic limbs failure?

Because the more I learn about super recurve limbs?...their results certainly comes as no shock or surprise to me where in the face of such?...I purchased mine...

*Full Well Knowing What Their Primary Inherent Virtue Is &?.....How To Exploit Such via...HIGH GPP ARROWS!!!*

And if I were to assemble a Comp Bow as a shoot it all day long practice/fun bow for my non-competitive self?.....it would be 35# Hex7.5 Mediums on a 21" Tempest Riser (Flat Black of Course! LOL!) and my arrows?.....

Easton 2114 X7 Eclipse...aluminums.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Demmer said:


> Now that's debatable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


John I should of said my diesel VW but you get the point 

My TDI beetle is on its way back to VW because of the recall so for now my every day ride is a 3500 duelie F 350 KingRanch 

While I miss the TDI's great mileage it's good to be back in my old truck 

I think you will like the grill badge  





Especially cause my dogs are with me


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah. I do like our TDI as well, but nothing like stepping on the Cummings

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> *"A String-Walking They Went"*
> 
> Now?...is it really any wonder why such competitive archers wound up rendering foul reports and opinions of their super recurve limbs?...furthermore?...is it really any wonder why some of the same ultimately suffered catastrophic limbs failure?


Jinks some harsh words, so the truth, 3 sets of limbs in 3 years (none lasted more than 12 months) Hex6 and CV-H, I would say a pretty poor track record. These limbs kept within Borders guidelines of just over 8gpp (39# OTF with 315g arrows) and was told by Border they're fine for Stringwalking (first set was just 3 under), the K7's I'm using now have lasted well over a year and I'm shooting 7.3gpp with them. These limbs failed through no fault of mine.

I liked them and they had great performance, I won several international medals Indoors, Field and Euro 3D champ with the CV's but I just don't trust them to last, I never did get my replacements I did get a pm a while ago saying these limbs have been sitting on a shelf for 8-9 months, Border have my details so don't understand why they didn't send them out to me! The CV's failed 3 weeks before WA Euro 3D's I was averaging 10 points per arrow on a 2x24 3D round (11, 10, 8 and 5 scoring), I never got that average back until this summer, really crap timing and killed my confidence for quite a while. 

Jaco from Timberpoint was able to repair the last set of CV's (1/2" delamination on limb butt) they've held up 500+ arrows and shoot fine but reluctant to use them for serious competitions.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

Hm, these limb failures are not encouraging at all 
I shoot thousands of arrows during more than three year with my bow and never got one problem. limbs are still strong. Maybe i am lucky.
Heck, i never experience limb splinters or delamination on any except on my cheep school bows i use for courses.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Entertaining and informative thread...thx for starting the ball rolling Jinks....and best of luck with your CH.

Dang I wish you were left handed.....


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Any limb can have issues. I have been shooting Border limbs since 2012 with no issues whatsoever. The only issues I have had with limbs have been a set of Winex that blew up on me and a set of Uukha Xcurve limbs that were twisted. But I take pretty good care of my stuff.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Jinks, what did you think of the Black Widow? I don't remember reading about that one.

I Think I've bought 2 bows in the last 10 years. The first was a PSE Stalker I bought because I wanted a lighter bow and it was cheap. After 3 sets of limbs failed, I bout an Omega Delta From Kegan. Oh, I traded some wood scrapers I made for a little all glass bow that I sometimes carry in the canoe when fishing/camping...so it's 3 bows.

I've been thinking of buying a bow but I don't know why (just for fun I guess) and I sure don't know what. I've never shot one but I've always kind of like the Black Widows ever since I first saw a picture of one MANY years ago...back when they went for 5 or 6 hundred bucks.

I shoot beer cans in the backyard and try to do a little hunting so all that's required is that I enjoy shooting the bow I'm shooting. LOL


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Chris Hill said:


> Any limb can have issues. I have been shooting Border limbs since 2012 with no issues whatsoever. The only issues I have had with limbs have been a set of Winex that blew up on me and a set of Uukha Xcurve limbs that were twisted. But I take pretty good care of my stuff.


I agree, no manufacturer is immune to this problem, it can happen due to any circumstances beyond their control, like a bad batch of glue.

I never abused these limbs in anyway, the CV's don't have a scratch on them, they look brand new. I'm more upset on the feeling that Border just gave up on me, than the actual failures.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

If you care about speed you are on the wrong side of the forum. Go shoot a compound if that's the case. It will out shoot ANY Border limb and will cost significantly less as well. I personally would never buy a Border bow because they are pushing the structural limits of what a bow limb can look like and are known for their delaminations and their limbs breaking if drawn back 2-4" more than they should be. The last thing I'd want is to be out hunting and have a handful of carbon in my hand because a limb blew on me because I spent a lot of money on a very expensive set of limb's that deliver maybe 5-10# more power over a convention recurve limb.

Some other problems that I see with this bow is that it being cut 5/16" past center can cause some issues finding an arrow that is actually stiff enough to use with the bow. This is where having a bow that is not cut past center has a significant advantage. Also, sure Border's might cast an arrow faster but as what cost? I see some people like Stephen talking about how is scores dropped with the Border's limbs so I'm guessing that the super recurve is twitchier than your standard high performance recurve limb. 

Seem's as though this limb design was built for the lazy, it's not that hard to work up an extra 5-10# not to mention a heavier bow will always give you a cleaner release, something that not even the most expensive high tech limb can give you without working for it by moving up in draw weight.

I'm pretty sure you can get a compound for $300 that will SMOKE a Border's limb by 100fps or so if speed is your thing.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> If you care about speed you are on the wrong side of the forum. Go shoot a compound if that's the case. It will out shoot ANY Border limb and will cost significantly less as well. I personally would never buy a Border bow because they are pushing the structural limits of what a bow limb can look like and are known for their delaminations and their limbs breaking if drawn back 2-4" more than they should be. The last thing I'd want is to be out hunting and have a handful of carbon in my hand because a limb blew on me because I spent a lot of money on a very expensive set of limb's that deliver maybe 5-10# more power over a convention recurve limb.
> 
> Some other problems that I see with this bow is that it being cut 5/16" past center can cause some issues finding an arrow that is actually stiff enough to use with the bow. This is where having a bow that is not cut past center has a significant advantage. Also, sure Border's might cast an arrow faster but as what cost? I see some people like Stephen talking about how is scores dropped with the Border's limbs so I'm guessing that the super recurve is twitchier than your standard high performance recurve limb.
> 
> ...


Welcome back James  

I've been shooting Border limbs for years with out issue 

I would not shoot anything else and I have access to them all 

Shoot what makes you happy folks 

If I had to use a Hill style longbow I would not bow hunt


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

James if you read my posts more carefully you will see my scores where higher than the Hex6 with Border CV's, the 6's weren't twitchy, I just didn't like the stiffness at the front and softness at the end, it's distracted me and think made me lazy in not working through expansion.

I'm under 28" but anyone buying Borders should talk with them first to check it will work on whatever riser/arrow combo they intend to use, they know their stuff wen it comes to these things and a wise precaution before purchasing.

10 points difference is only a problem at the highest shooting levels.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

JParanee said:


> Welcome back James
> 
> I've been shooting Border limbs for years with out issue
> 
> ...


I agree with the shoot with what makes you happy part, I'm just warning others because I have read quite a few horror story's of Border's limbs blowing up because they were drawn an extra 2-4" past what they were designed for (because they were used on the wrong riser length). To me that's pushing the limits of not only performance, but my safety and the reliability of the bow itself.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stephen Morley said:


> Jinks some harsh words, so the truth, 3 sets of limbs in 3 years (none lasted more than 12 months) Hex6 and CV-H, I would say a pretty poor track record. These limbs kept within Borders guidelines of just over 8gpp (39# OTF with 315g arrows) and was told by Border they're fine for Stringwalking (first set was just 3 under), the K7's I'm using now have lasted well over a year and I'm shooting 7.3gpp with them. These limbs failed through no fault of mine.
> 
> I liked them and they had great performance, I won several international medals Indoors, Field and Euro 3D champ with the CV's but I just don't trust them to last, I never did get my replacements I did get a pm a while ago saying these limbs have been sitting on a shelf for 8-9 months, Border have my details so don't understand why they didn't send them out to me! The CV's failed 3 weeks before WA Euro 3D's I was averaging 10 points per arrow on a 2x24 3D round (11, 10, 8 and 5 scoring), I never got that average back until this summer, really crap timing and killed my confidence for quite a while.
> 
> ...


Steve?...I'm sorry you feel my opinions were harshly worded....for that I apologize...but where my thoughts based on years of observations and reading through countless first hand experiences and assessments of others?...I'll not abandon my thoughts or throw my brains in the trash be it to patronize a friend nor pander too the many courts of public opinion...but at the end of the day?...I do value maintaining open dialog especially with well accomplished archers such as yourself....that said?...here's my thoughts of your publicly proclaimed "truth"...in my usual "[email protected] The Torpedoes" styling where I'm about to undoubtedly raise a few eyebrows on both sides of the isle.

Now before I continue here?...first allow me to prove to you folks that I knew a little something about CF 15 years ago when I myself designed and made sport bike related products of it...now I couldn't find a pic of them but here's a link where the first paragraph of....

*"The Deathgrip Forkbrace is a product designed by Bill Jinks of the Owners Association. The cost of the Aircraft Grade T-6 Billet Aluminum Forkbrace depends on the model. Mine is polished non-anodized aluminum with a mirror finish. The price is $125. Other models are available clear anodized and in a black anodized finish. I also ordered the 'Squire Scales' Fork Protector Kit. This is $25 when ordered with this model of the Forkbrace and allows you to adapt the stock fork protectors for integration with the Forkbrace. Also available are the 'Dragon Scales' layered carbon fiber fork protectors designed to bolt right onto the Forkbrace.*


should prove my historical creds concerning such...

http://www.cartestsoftware.com/fz1/...[/B]
and with that?....the defense rests. ;)


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Stephen Morley said:


> Jinks some harsh words, so the truth, 3 sets of limbs in 3 years (none lasted more than 12 months) Hex6 and CV-H, I would say a pretty poor track record. These limbs kept within Borders guidelines of just over 8gpp (39# OTF with 315g arrows) and was told by Border they're fine for Stringwalking (first set was just 3 under), the K7's I'm using now have lasted well over a year and I'm shooting 7.3gpp with them. These limbs failed through no fault of mine.
> 
> I liked them and they had great performance, I won several international medals Indoors, Field and Euro 3D champ with the CV's but I just don't trust them to last, I never did get my replacements I did get a pm a while ago saying these limbs have been sitting on a shelf for 8-9 months, Border have my details so don't understand why they didn't send them out to me! The CV's failed 3 weeks before WA Euro 3D's I was averaging 10 points per arrow on a 2x24 3D round (11, 10, 8 and 5 scoring), I never got that average back until this summer, really crap timing and killed my confidence for quite a while.
> 
> ...


Why don't you buy two sets of limbs a year or try to set up a deal where they sponsor you and give you a set of limbs once every 6 months or so? String walking put's a lot of stress on the limbs so it's no surprise that they fail in that case but if I were competing and using fragile limbs I'd be prepared for when they fail.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

JamesThom. said:


> If you care about speed you are on the wrong side of the forum.


And... We're back!

I chose a certain equipment style because I like the challenge of it just being me and the bow. I also like looking into seeing if I can squeeze out some additional performance yet still have a bow that I can shoot well. 

Therefore there is something wrong with me, and I need to be told what I should and should not be allowed to shoot? I need to be told where I can and cannot post?


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> And... We're back!
> 
> I chose a certain equipment style because I like the challenge of it just being me and the bow. I also like looking into seeing if I can squeeze out some additional performance yet still have a bow that I can shoot well.
> 
> Therefore there is something wrong with me, and I need to be told what I should and should not be allowed to shoot? I need to be told where I can and cannot post?


You obviously can't understand sarcasm nor a joke. Yes speed is important but if it's your primary concern in a bow or limb design there's no shame in using a compound. As I said a compound that's even $300 will smoke a set of Border's limbs which are extremely expensive by at least 100fps and there's no risk of a limb blowing up on you.

When I first saw a Border's bow I actually thought it was a compound so that just goes to show how far they are pushing the limits of what a limb can do. But my thing is, instead of pushing the limits, blowing your money, and risking limb failure because they are a fragile limb design, why not just use a compound? People talk about flat trajecotry with a Border's bow but a 300+fps compound will smoke a Border's bow in the trajectory department.

If string walking is your thing maybe you should string walk a compound. 

EDIT: Stephen I'm not being sarcastic here. You should send an email to Borders and see if they will sponsor you and send you 2 sets or more of limbs a year. Since you are winning international tournaments using their equipment they should sponsor you.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

JamesThom. said:


> You obviously can't understand sarcasm nor a joke.


Apology accepted.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Good thing I checked with Border first because they were fine with me SW, I'm quite lucky in having a *very* quiet setup. at 15 yards I cannot tell the difference in noise between my 3 under hold and my 15y SW crawl. If I sent you a video I doubt you could either.


Tapani Säilä is a Finnish Longbow legend, I first met in in 2002 at IFAA worlds, he badly broke is toe after first days shooting, he continued shooting another 4 days and dropped 3 places to 5th (he was 67 at the time) and all I can say is they make them tough in Finland, 2 years ago he beat me in Barebow shooting a 40 year old Les Howis bow, Katrin told me not to be disappointed because he won several Euro titles in Barebow, a set of limbs lasting that long using SW, must be some serious abuse going on there lol

James Border wont/don't sponsor anybody. I cannot afford two sets of limbs of the same limbs that I might have to replace every few years, maybe a bit much to ask of any company just to keep replacing limbs regardless of the reason, I shoot my Kaya's and MK's just fine now, scores are now up to what they were a couple of years ago.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stephen Morley said:


> Good thing I checked with Border first because they were fine with me SW, I'm quite lucky in having a *very* quiet setup. at 15 yards I cannot tell the difference in noise between my 3 under hold and my 15y SW crawl.
> 
> 
> Tapani Säilä is a Finnish Longbow legend, I first met in in 2002 at IFAA worlds, he badly broke is toe after first days shooting, he continued shooting another 4 days and dropped 3 places to 5th (he was 67 at the time) and all I can say is they make them tough in Finland, 2 years ago he beat me in Barebow shooting a 40 year old Les Howis bow, Katrin told me not to be disappointed because he won several Euro titles in Barebow, a set of limbs lasting that long using SW, must be some serious abuse going on there lol
> ...


Steve?...I've grown to adopt the firm belief that...

*"Much like a poor craftsman is prone to blaming his tools?...a poor archer will almost always blame their bow."*

and I certainly don't mean that to be directed at anyone here...as it's more a doctrine I've adopted for myself whereby?...

Much like your rugged Finnish friend?...unless the limbs were rattling around in their pockets like a boat oar in a lock?....he could most likely score well with the lowest performing of bows provided they weren't changing shape or position on him as he shot.

Oh well....this thread topic has strayed a long way from home...but brought forth some valuable and insightful experiences which in essence?....helped me to form and feel extremely secure with the specification standards I've established for myself with my new too me Hex7 Covert Hunter. 

and shooting 12.7GPP 3-under?....I think the limbs will hold up just dandy belting out 40+K.E. for many years to come.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Jinks it's stunning looking bow, I hope you enjoy it for many years.

He beat me on a WA3D tourney, I shot 100 points more on the actual wooded courses but the semi finals is in an arena and just 4 arrows, he scored 43 which was higher than the Compounds lol At his age he struggles to get around the terrain but if he doesn't have to climb/walk, he's still a master to be respected and admired, he is very much that to me.

Katrins Border Longbow which she has 7 World/Euro titles and remained strung for most of it's 15 year life, if you get a good one, keep it.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stephen Morley said:


> Jinks it's stunning looking bow, I hope you enjoy it for many years.


Thanks Steve! :thumbs_up


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I like speed, but not just speed alone. Speed gives me better penetration and trajectory.
But the fastest bow might not be the most hooter friendly for you. I can certainly get faster arrow speeds by going to a lighter spine and tip to make a lighter overall arrow.
However for hunting the heavier arrow is my choice and my CH still delivers that arrow at good speed while being an accurate bow for me.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bill 2311 said:


> I like speed, but not just speed alone. Speed gives me better penetration and trajectory.
> But the fastest bow might not be the most hooter friendly for you. I can certainly get faster arrow speeds by going to a lighter spine and tip to make a lighter overall arrow.
> However for hunting the heavier arrow is my choice and my CH still delivers that arrow at good speed while being an accurate bow for me.


I agree Bill...I used to shoot very light...low GPP arrows...in an effort to attain what the Hex7 limbs offer up with medium weight arrows out of the box and does with heavy arrows what my conventional limb bows wished they could do with medium weight arrows.

The Holy Grail Benchmark I used to shoot for to consider my bow/bows to be in a highly competitive state of tune was 200fps....and I handily got it with most of them using 270gr arrows...then along comes the Hex7 Covert Hunter pushing 420gr arrows at 195/195/196 (just under 200fps)?....color me thrilled! 

And?...this is where my main focus was drawn from achieving high velocities too placing far more value on gobs of power producing K.E./Momentum where as a byproduct?...I also discovered a heavy arrow moving at 180fps carries a far more stable and predictable flight path than a light arrow does at 200fps and?...

for quite a ways longer.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> Hm, these limb failures are not encouraging at all


*edited*

I've seen conventional limbs fail too. I've seen more conventional limbs fail than SR limbs. Put out enough limbs, subject them to enough conditions, it's going to happen. If any possibility of limb failure is a deal breaker, better just find another hobby 

I've never had a limb failure, personally, with any bow. Then again, I'm kind of a stickler for using them within recommended parameters.

Now, if you want to be critical of Border, you could say that a drawback of designing limbs that maximize performance attributes, attributes for which you don't personally find useful to _your personal needs_, is that it allows the users to make mistakes which _could_ contribute to higher failure rates. I.e., using arrows that are too light because they misunderstand what the GPP 'standard' really means when it relates to approaching a 'dry fire' condition, or that they don't understand how draw length is actually measured, and how that relates to stored energy (which is actually the more relevant metric.) Border has specifications available to avoid such cases of misuse, but if I was to really make a suggestion on what they could do better, it would be to make sure the owners are painfully aware of what exactly this means before making a purchase, even if the potential misunderstanding might be entirely user error.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

DaemonXR said:


> @Barney
> Very thorough explanation, but dont you dare to say that i dont need one more bow in my stable


Sorry


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Now...I about had a fit when my composites/mold guy informed me that my Dragon Scale fork protectors were backed by fiberglass....while I was trying to bill them as being 100% CF...where he explained to me that if he did that?...I could fire a weak BB gun at them and shatter them....(with him citing "imagine what a 200mph road pebble might do")....and why am I telling you this?...it's not to brag...it's to bring to light that the Sid's have been boasting...

I saw a video somewhere of Sid shooting a set of limbs he took a file to on the edges and put some deep grooves in it. I was impressed it didn't break.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> Hex7 a great looking limb and obviously some Archers love them, I just can't help feeling the supercurves are a design solution to a problem that never existed. Some archers are always looking for the next best thing, so Border will always have a market.


In my opinion, it is a design solution that offers an option with potential benefits. I think some people perhaps misunderstand those potential benefits, thinking it will make them more accurate, or that it will give them a higher potential for maximum arrow speed. 

Ultimately, I think that while you could possibly lay out theoretical reasons why one or another is better for accuracy, where it counts, for the shooter, will depend a large degree on the shooter. Some people react very well to the smoothness of draw on the back end, and don't find the faster load on the front end an issue at all. Some, like yourself, find that it actually hurts overall accuracy results.

While I think it's good to discuss generalities, and experiences of others, I also think it's important to acknowledge that actual reality is context specific, not a universal proclamation based on one parameter. Things like high grip versus low grip, what works better depends on the shooter. For me, high grip works best on recurves, slow grip works best on compound bows. I've spent a lot of time playing, and somebody could give me a valid scientific argument for the superiority of either technique, but I'm not going to wrestle trying to prove a theory true if my results are showing otherwise. I guess I'm kind of lazy that way.

I wouldn't discount the experiences of others, like yourself, or others whom I respect greatly. But, at the same time, I also know exceptions, so... I'm just working with a cobbling together a paradigm that explains what I see, and the only paradigm that works is one that's a little more complex than A is more accurate than B.

Now, the fact that some have, in my opinion, demonstrated a reasonable case that there are real differences in their accuracy, even if they're not scientifically controlled experiments, makes me think there is _something_ going on. It is also my opinion that many may simply take another's experience as an indicator of what their own would likely be, and actually have a bias that effectively creates doubt, and as such, creates real results. But, I am inclined to think there is _something_ going on under certain circumstances, but them being a small company, it very much slows down the ability to figure out what that is. Cost no object, and communication skills permitting, the most direct approach is that the higher level experienced shooters who are having experiences that cannot be explained by Border spend a few months shooting at the factory, with high speed cameras running on every angle, collecting data to correlate with the flyers. That'd be cool, but I don't see that happening. My intuitive sense, if I was chasing the problem, would be to look at the impact of the SR's increased 'cam-like' effect as it relates to changes in tiller, nock height, and draw hand position. While I know people who have shot very well string walking with Border Hex 6 limbs, it also seems that those who notice accuracy differences are disproportionately string walking, though that of course doesn't mean a thing necessarily. Of the people I know who shoot 'traditional' archery on a highly competive level (single string, no sights, FWIW), they tend to gravitate to string walking, not only because it provides a tool set to be more accurate, but because at the very highest level, there's more competition available.

Just my thoughts.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

BarneySlayer said:


> *edited*
> 
> I've seen conventional limbs fail too. I've seen more conventional limbs fail than SR limbs. Put out enough limbs, subject them to enough conditions, it's going to happen. If any possibility of limb failure is a deal breaker, better just find another hobby
> 
> ...


Borders webpage has a lot of information for setting up their bows and min gpp, I spoke with Sid on my intended tourney use and arrow specs which all came back as ok. I have seen one person from Denmark pushing the Border limits, high poundage, 8 strand strings and light arrows, I was told he had broken a number of limbs, so abuse does happen.

I'm no Bowyer/engineer but I have to question Borders direction to go with an all carbon limb, yes it ups the performance but wonder if it might also be the weak link in these limbs, I don't know for sure what other companies do but as Border claim the lightest limb on the market today I suspect they're the only ones.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> Jinks some harsh words, so the truth, 3 sets of limbs in 3 years (none lasted more than 12 months) Hex6 and CV-H, I would say a pretty poor track record. These limbs kept within Borders guidelines of just over 8gpp (39# OTF with 315g arrows) and was told by Border they're fine for Stringwalking (first set was just 3 under), the K7's I'm using now have lasted well over a year and I'm shooting 7.3gpp with them. These limbs failed through no fault of mine.
> 
> I liked them and they had great performance, I won several international medals Indoors, Field and Euro 3D champ with the CV's but I just don't trust them to last, I never did get my replacements I did get a pm a while ago saying these limbs have been sitting on a shelf for 8-9 months, Border have my details so don't understand why they didn't send them out to me! The CV's failed 3 weeks before WA Euro 3D's I was averaging 10 points per arrow on a 2x24 3D round (11, 10, 8 and 5 scoring), I never got that average back until this summer, really crap timing and killed my confidence for quite a while.
> 
> ...


Certainly an experience worth putting in the big picture. I'm glad you shared it.

I'm not tossing my own limbs, but I think there's a context in which to put it, most definitely 

I think it says something that I'm sure Sid won't like, but not in a blanket condemnation way. The fact that you've had that extreme experience, which would be very difficult to explain away, and that others haven't, suggests that there is in fact something about the application. I don't mean that to sound like it's your fault, because your application was cleared from the beginning.

It'd be really neat, if I was making wishes to be granted, to know what that is, but I should actually get off the Internet and finish some framing before the rains come in on force.

Thanks, in general for your contributions, BTW. I've gotten a lot from them


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> *edited*
> 
> I've seen conventional limbs fail too. I've seen more conventional limbs fail than SR limbs. Put out enough limbs, subject them to enough conditions, it's going to happen. If any possibility of limb failure is a deal breaker, better just find another hobby


Truth!....and is a small part of the reason why I dispatched the 35# Hex7.5 shorts so quickly I had on the Stolid Bull Black Thunder riser as?...

That riser (like most all the top end BB risers) had so much well directed and centralized mass?....it could easily noodle the tips of other limbs I had the utmost confidence in until?...I clipped them onto that tank of a riser.

The two scary parts were...

1. I couldn't even detect any weirdness happening...but it was... and?...

2. Hex Limbs don't "Noodle"...as they are quite a bit too the side of "al dente" LOL!

so look what some of the failed limbs are being subjected too...big hooks or not...and I think you find that most which failed?...were exposed too one or several of the following...

1. Mounted to risers of Extreme Mass (BB and/or Stabbed Out Oly Bows)

2. Shot with the latest in "Zero Stretch" string material offerings

3. Shot excessively using..."Minimum GPP Arrow Weights"

4. Subjected too constant String Walking (often times simulating partial repeated dry fires) 

5. Extreme Brace Heights (either way)

6. Shot in an "Over Tillered" condition.

7. Various Operator Errors.

Seven...the..."Number of Completion"...I'll stop there.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Jinks

You made observations on Stringwalking based on what?

I don't see any hard evidence that Stringwalking has a negative effect the life of the limbs, like I posted earlier I know archers that have used the same limbs for many years.

I'm sure if Border thought SW would damage their limbs you would see it in their warranty conditions, in fact when I asked Sid told me the Hex6 limbs would handle SW better than conventional limbs.


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## DaemonXR (Sep 17, 2013)

I can understand concept of thinking behind "pushing the limits". Without that we wouldnt go ahead in technological endeavors in anything.
It is obvious that caution must be excercised on any bow regarding gpp. I never followed manufacturer minimum gpp on any bow. I always use heavier arrows than recomended minimum. Heck, my lightest arrow is 365gr for my oly rig. I find it wreckles to even go below recomended. Who would want to blow "that bow" on purpose is beyond me 
Did any of you had experience with Grozer bows? His biocomposite material is extremely fast though monoblocks was never my game


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stephen Morley said:


> Jinks
> 
> You made observations on Stringwalking based on what?
> 
> ...


Steve?...I am no longer looking to upset anyone than I am attempting to convince others to not set-up, shoot and operate their bows in any fashion they like...but since you asked what I'm basing my observations with regards too my assertions of such?...they are as follows....

1. "Experience"...where there have been 2 bows of mine (of resent memory) that I myself attempted string Walking with....where in short order I ruled it out as not being anything I would feel comfortable subjecting any bows of mine too a steady diet of.

Tiller adjustments were made...adjustable plungers adjusted....the works...and in all instances?.....resulted in loud, sloppy at-the-shot bow behavior that varied pending how low on the string I crawled....I even tried a fixed crawl on a few bows and quickly abandoned the idea writing all instances off as "Bow Abuse" where my ears heard the sound of what could only be described as "Partial Dry Fires" where a varying percentage of the energy got into the arrow pending how low I went.

2. When I inquired of the above too the masses?...I was met with grins and chuckles from those who actually seemed very near proud of how loud their SW'ing bows were.

3. Some even spoke and boasted of how they could give a flip about how nasty their fishtailing arrows flew provided they hit the mark.

4. I've seen pictures of well know, top contenders bows where they were exhibiting how the attitude of their arrows angularity at static would be considered egregious by those who set-up and tune in a more conventional manor...and thought such humorous.

Yet these are the same folks who wield the strongest voices with competitive creds to back them up and then?...are also the loudest when their perpetually abused equipment fails. 

Personally?...be happy I ain't Sid...cause there's no way in Hades I'd ever put my stamp of approval on folks treating the products I produce like that yet still stand behind a warranty.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Stephen Morley said:


> Borders webpage has a lot of information for setting up their bows and min gpp, I spoke with Sid on my intended tourney use and arrow specs which all came back as ok. I have seen one person from Denmark pushing the Border limits, high poundage, 8 strand strings and light arrows, I was told he had broken a number of limbs, so abuse does happen.
> 
> I'm no Bowyer/engineer but I have to question Borders direction to go with an all carbon limb, yes it ups the performance but wonder if it might also be the weak link in these limbs, I don't know for sure what other companies do but as Border claim the lightest limb on the market today I suspect they're the only ones.


I'm curious as to how they would perform if they stuck to their super recurve design but instead of using all carbon construction, went with a foam core or maple core using their same design. Sure they would be giving up a slight amount of performance but I'd imagine that it would be negligible compared to the amount of durability they would gain.

As for string walking being harder on the bow, it tend's to overdraw the bottom limb the further you have walked down the string. From what I have read the Border limbs do not take a liken to being overdrawn by even 2-4". I'd imagine that all that stress from the bottom limb being "overdrawn" lead's to an eventual limb failure vs using a conventional recurve limb that can be over drawn safely by say 6-8" or more with no problem. 

Carbon does not like to be bent much at all compared to the more conventional limb materials being used such as wood, fiberglass, and foam. It's why most limb manufacturers place the carbon (if they make a limb that has carbon in it) in a place where the limb bend's the least if not at all.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Jinks Barebow is a lot bigger this side of the pond, so I get to see more of what goes on, the top guys I've come across have good arrow flight and very respectable noise levels. Not that I haven't see poorly setup bows but nothing bad from the good shooters.

My current setup I could and have switched to normal 3 under with just a tweak of the plunger, when I tune I start Bareshaft at 20y with normal 3 under and once I get back to 30-35 yards I shoot with a SW crawl, and just dial in the plunger, very simple and a very quiet setup.

It took two tries at SW, and felt quite awkward for probably 2 months and then another 7-8 months to match my normal 3 under scores, you're not going to get any positive feedback with a few days experimenting in the back yard


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> Stephen, did you ever look into a sponsorship from Borders? Maybe they can send you a few sets of limbs each year for winning and representing them. Sid was talking about what has been accomplished using their limbs earlier in this thread so they definitely care about how their limbs/bows are holding up in terms of competition. I know JP hunts with his and is at the very least, partially sponsored by Borders.
> 
> I'm considering sending in a sponsorship video to Sid at Borders to see if he will sponsor me to see how far away I can hit soccer balls in the backyard.
> 
> I'm the only man to hit a soccer ball twice in a row from 30 yards.


James I'm not sponsored by Border 

They do not sponsor anyone 

I am fortunate to be able to do some R&D work but I send them money like anyone else


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> I'm curious as to how they would perform if they stuck to their super recurve design but instead of using all carbon construction, went with a foam core or maple core using their same design. Sure they would be giving up a slight amount of performance but I'd imagine that it would be negligible compared to the amount of durability they would gain.
> 
> As for string walking being harder on the bow, it tend's to overdraw the bottom limb the further you have walked down the string. From what I have read the Border limbs do not take a liken to being overdrawn by even 2-4". I'd imagine that all that stress from the bottom limb being "overdrawn" lead's to an eventual limb failure vs using a conventional recurve limb that can be over drawn safely by say 6-8" or more with no problem.
> 
> Carbon does not like to be bent much at all compared to the more conventional limb materials being used such as wood, fiberglass, and foam. It's why most limb manufacturers place the carbon (if they make a limb that has carbon in it) in a place where the limb bend's the least if not at all.


James 

I don't think Wood and glass would work in that configuration


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

That's ashame. They should sponsor people if they want to get their name out their more. I'm curious as to if any of the top barebow archers are sponsored. If I had to go out on a limb I'd have to say no because barebow is not popular at all and does not bring in much cash in terms of new bow sales. I'm guessing the freestyle Olympic Archers are sponsored by bow company's though like Hoyt. 

JP I wonder if carbon/foam would work with a borders limb if wood would not work. I think Border's would have a better reputation if they built a seperate model that was designed to be more durable and take more abuse and possible even handle a lighter arrow without risk of limb failure. They could also keep their all carbon limbs so it would be a win win for them.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

James in effect the Border limbs are very durable remember that if a 50 pound set of Hex 7.5 are producing the energy of a 65 pound conventional recurve and possibly a 70 plus pound longbow that their actually even shooting 10 GPP its more akin to them shooting almost 6 gpp 

Hope that makes sense  

They are carbon and foam but the carbon needs layer up a certain way to be strong enough 

You have to forgive my laymens terms I'm just a simple bowhunter  

Companies like Hoyt and Win Win can sponsor archers 

Border archery is a small cottage industry ran by a dedicated family


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> Some other problems that I see with this bow is that it being cut 5/16" past center can cause some issues finding an arrow that is actually stiff enough to use with the bow.


That's not a problem, you can bring most arrows into or back out of center shot with a leather strike plate, and if you need more, two pieces of leather. If you're looking at risers in general, and include metal risers, that's not even exceptional.

And it's not difficult to find an arrow stiff enough.


This is where having a bow that is not cut past center has a significant advantage. Also, sure Border's might cast an arrow faster but as what cost? I see some people like Stephen talking about how is scores dropped with the Border's limbs so I'm guessing that the super recurve is twitchier than your standard high performance recurve limb. 

Seem's as though this limb design was built for the lazy, it's not that hard to work up an extra 5-10# not to mention a heavier bow will always give you a cleaner release, something that not even the most expensive high tech limb can give you without working for it by moving up in draw weight.

I'm pretty sure you can get a compound for $300 that will SMOKE a Border's limb by 100fps or so if speed is your thing.[/QUOTE]


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> I just didn't like the stiffness at the front and softness at the end, it's distracted me and think made me lazy in not working through expansion.


I can definitely relate. While I now like the draw, particularly after a time of adaptation, aside from needing to adjust to relax my fingers, while it wasn't the fault of the bow, I did notice that I had a tendency, particularly in the bow arm, to relax in a lazy way. It was kind of like, it's so easy, I'm going to use minimal effort, all over, including the muscles I should have been using to 'reach out'. The other thing is that, in terms of recoil due to launch (Newton's 3rd), the amount of support required by bow arm, in ratio to amount of holding weight, is substantially higher. So, in a way, not only does it supposedly have different tuning requirements (which, for me, I haven't actually personally noticed) but in finer details, it has different shooting requirements. Not saying that fundamentals aren't the same, just... Well, you obviously know


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> As I said a compound that's even $300 will smoke a set of Border's limbs which are extremely expensive by at least 100fps and there's no risk of a limb blowing up on you.


Hang out with compound shooters long enough. You'll meet somebody who has had their bow explode


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> Hang out with compound shooters long enough. You'll meet somebody who has had their bow explode


He don't hafta go hang out with strangers for that Barney!...

I blew up a 40" ATA 80# Pearson Spoiler...w/ a molded in home-made 2" Overdraw...finger shooting 26 1/2" long 2312's with glue-in bullet points! :laugh:

In front of 3 other competitors at a major shoot...in 1989...where that bow put a few of these on my table...


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

JamesThom. said:


> It's why most limb manufacturers place the carbon (if they make a limb that has carbon in it) in a place where the limb bend's the least if not at all.


Every carbon limb I have seen had carbon for the entire length of the limb. Hoyt, W&W, etc etc. 

I would be VERY interested in seeing limbs that had carbon for only part of their length or to know who actually makes limbs like this, and to know the engineering behind deciding to make limbs in such a manner.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

James 

Bender is right 

I missed your statement in that post

I do enjoy your posts but you need to check on some of your info buddy


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> Every carbon limb I have seen had carbon for the entire length of the limb. Hoyt, W&W, etc etc.
> 
> I would be VERY interested in seeing limbs that had carbon for only part of their length or to know who actually makes limbs like this, and to know the engineering behind deciding to make limbs in such a manner.





JParanee said:


> James
> 
> Bender is right
> 
> ...


Never mind sorry about that. I got my information from someone online and they were wrong. They said that carbon is only placed in certain spot's on the limb because if it was placed on a part of the limb that bend's it's likely to fail.

My apologies.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> You guys don't shoot longbows so you would not know. Z Bow's from what I have read only places carbon in certain parts of the limb to make it lighter and faster.
> 
> I don't know much about carbon in recurves.


James 

I have played with many of the very best longbows out there from Centaur to Border 

Just because I choose not to shoot a longbow does not mean I do not know about them 

I've been a single string archer for 4 decades 

I ve owned them and shot them 

Please try and give factual information 

Not for me but for the new people on here that are reading this stuff 

Thx


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

JParanee said:


> James
> 
> I have played with many of the very best longbows out there from Centaur to Border
> 
> ...


You're misquoting me. Check my post previous to the post you just made.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> You're misquoting me. Check my post previous to the post you just made.


You mean the one you just edited?

The one where you told a guy who set a national record shooting the longbow, that he doesn't shoot a longbow, so he wouldn't understand?

I'm glad you changed that post, but you shouldn't pretend that you never wrote it.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

James just for the record Border make an all carbon limb as in they don't use Fiberglass in with the construction (as a lot other companies do), they still use their own wood/foam cores, a 100% laminated carbon limb wouldn't work but it has to run through the whole limb, just having carbon on the working part of the limb wont help either. 

Uukha limbs are made of epoxy impregnated carbon reinforcements, molded at high pressure and high temperature although technically all carbon it's a different construction technique and not a normal laminated process, they still need the resin to hold it all together.

Apologies, I should have worded my post a little better, I wrongly assumed everyone here knew the basics of laminated limb construction. Your comment "you guys don't know Longbow" maybe you should heed your own advice, you obviously don't know much on Recurves and nothing about Stringwalking, just saying. 

By all means post but remember people come here for solid info, your throwing a lot of curve balls into these Forum posts.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Steve. Can you email [email protected]
I have no idea where the comunication breakdown is.
But i have certainly not given up on you in terms of customer service.
One thing im not going to do is handle any customer service questions Via PM. As i have no trace of pervious comunications. All emails are logged via our CRM system unlike PMs. 
So lets see if we can get this ironed out.
Please advise us of your expectations and wises. And lets see if we can meet them.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

JamesThom. said:


> I'm curious as to how they would perform if they stuck to their super recurve design but instead of using all carbon construction, went with a foam core or maple core using their same design. Sure they would be giving up a slight amount of performance but I'd imagine that it would be negligible compared to the amount of durability they would gain.


JamesThom., they don't build bows like this because they literally wouldn't hold a string.

Super recurves are "new" because they are the product of some SERIOUS material development. It's the bias-ply carbon that makes super recurves possible, because it offers so much torsional stability that you can push the design further. You've admitted you've never shot one, but here's the deal: you know the twist test you like? You can't twist a Border recurve limb like that. Stiff as can be. If you made them with fiberglass though, as soon as you start to draw the limbs will twist sideways and the string will come off the bow. This is why only Border produces this sort of design.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

stick monkey said:


> I envy your collection...the bows you have had experience with...but I recall with almost every one of these bows you showed the same enthusiasm as you do now for the covert Hunter...I'll admit there is always something great about a new bow...til there is nothing good anymore...I know because I have had several great bows and none of them could beat my target panic...the one thing that did break it was my continued shooting with ONE bow...when I had several to choose from...i would shoot each of them very good for a limited time and when the target panic beat me...I would switch to another bow and it would be a new honeymoon with moments of greatness...then it would show its evil face again...I began to sell off everything...even my beloved toelke longbow and uukha upro riser and hx10 limbs...which for me was the best shooting bow ever in my possession...it was not till I put all my devotion into one bow that I feel beat my target panic...thank goodness...this bow is a win win inno max...and I don't feel the need to replace it...if I did it would be another uukha.





GEREP said:


> Actually JINKS, while I enjoy reading your "reviews," I would agree that they are much more about *"opinion"* than *"review"*.
> 
> Yes, while your reviews do involve weights, scales, specs, videos, chronographs, and descriptions, they are almost always used to confirm a preconceived notion of what you *WANT* your new toy to be, not just what it *IS*.
> 
> ...


Due to the observations made above that could be considered justifiable criticisms of my own personal experience based reviews thereby taking a toll on what otherwise might be considered...*"MY Credibility"*?...

I submit the follow link to another archer who is well known and respected for his bow reviews where coincidentally enough?....his review of a 60" Hex7 Covert Hunter with a 17" riser seems to parallel mine to no small degree..."Pete Ward"

[urlhttp://peteward.com/2014%20reviews/Test%20CovertHunter.html[/url]


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

stick monkey said:


> I envy your collection...the bows you have had experience with...but I recall with almost every one of these bows you showed the same enthusiasm as you do now for the covert Hunter...I'll admit there is always something great about a new bow...til there is nothing good anymore...I know because I have had several great bows and none of them could beat my target panic...the one thing that did break it was my continued shooting with ONE bow...when I had several to choose from...i would shoot each of them very good for a limited time and when the target panic beat me...I would switch to another bow and it would be a new honeymoon with moments of greatness...then it would show its evil face again...I began to sell off everything...even my beloved toelke longbow and uukha upro riser and hx10 limbs...which for me was the best shooting bow ever in my possession...it was not till I put all my devotion into one bow that I feel beat my target panic...thank goodness...this bow is a win win inno max...and I don't feel the need to replace it...if I did it would be another uukha.





GEREP said:


> Actually JINKS, while I enjoy reading your "reviews," I would agree that they are much more about *"opinion"* than *"review"*.
> 
> Yes, while your reviews do involve weights, scales, specs, videos, chronographs, and descriptions, they are almost always used to confirm a preconceived notion of what you *WANT* your new toy to be, not just what it *IS*.
> 
> ...


Due to the observations made above that could be considered justifiable criticisms of my own personal experience based reviews thereby taking a toll on what otherwise might be considered...*"MY Credibility"*?...

I submit the follow link to another archer who is well known and respected for his bow reviews where coincidentally enough?....his review of a 60" Hex7 Covert Hunter with a 17" riser seems to parallel mine to no small degree..."Pete Ward"

http://peteward.com/2014 reviews/Test CovertHunter.html


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

I always watch these cooking shows. And watch the judges shred someones best effort to peices. And always think to my self. Credit goes to man in the ring and not the hecklers who have never tried. Credit to the person who has tried and failed more than those who have never tried at all.
There is a well known quote around something along those words.
Along with mocking the hecklers in the cheap seats. And the internet is full of hecklers, as far as im concerned. Hecklers can need as much scrutiny as the reviewer


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Bill I always enjoy your reviews (keep them coming) but I do take them as just *your* opinion as with any other review I read on the internet, if a review really wets my appetite enough I'll go and get that piece of kit and form my own opinion. 


In the past I'm already looking at a product and look for online reviews, it's also informative to hear the good and bad points on a product because even though the product may be perfect it doesn't mean it's perfect fit for everybody.

It's been an interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

I


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Due to the observations made above that could be considered justifiable criticisms....



JINKS:

For what it's worth, my post wasn't meant to be a criticism as much as an observation. You always seem so surprised when people remind you of the dozen (or so) previous bows that you absolutely swore up and down were going to be the last bow you were ever going to buy. If you didn't have the track record with bows that you do, they wouldn't be posting what they post. 

On a side note, and take this for what you will also. 

I think you will admit that I've been pretty darn consistent when it comes to my observations. Regardless of whether your bow du jour was a Bear, a TradTech, a Morrison, a Gillo or a Border, I've always felt the same way...and told you so.

I'm not one that will heckle you one day, and insinuate you don't know what the heck you're talking about, and then all of a sudden act like your best buddy and treat you like you're an archery sage the next day...based solely on the brand of bow you happen to be shooting. That's just not my style.

I sincerely *DO* hope that your new CH is the last bow you are ever going to buy...

...but I wouldn't bet money on it.

:wink:

KPC


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Like Bill I too have one though various bows.
I never had one that I hated. I just found some that I like better. Currently the best shooting bow gor me is the CH as well.
There is no good way to find that bow best you you except to try them. A task usually impossible without buying it.
I also found that as I stayed with it, I was willing to spend more on a bow.
Who knows, but in a year or two I might be back to compounds or just decided that a less expensive bow will serve me as well.
For now, I am shooting the CH. 
That reminds me....
Sid, did you ship those new limbs?
Yes, I do drink the Kool Aid. A bit.


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