# Longbow and recurve strings different?



## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

More like 3-4" shorter in actual length than the AMO length of bow. I've found that for most recurves a string 4" shorter than AMO length gets about a 7-1/2" - 8" brace height. For longbows, usually an inch longer. Of course, each bow has it's own characteristics and may vary somewhat.


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## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

what might have been omitted is: many recurves and even long bows CANNOT shoot fast flight strings. My bow for instance cannot handle fastflight strings. Also, each bow manufacturer has different fistmele measurments. What will shoot on one might be too much for the other.

I would consult your manufacturer and find out the right brace height and if it shoots dacron or fast flight strings.


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## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

Good idea; I did that and was waiting to hear back from them by email, wanted to hear from youse guys too. 

Martin says the Hunter and Savannah can handle FF strings.

Martin says get a 57-58 (4-5 inch shorter) string for the bows.

Most string makers still say get a 3 inch shorter string for the bows...

The diference between the longbow and recurve strings is the size of the top loop. It's bigger on the recurve strings (but you can use a recurve string on a longbow).

Dealer got some Savannah longbows in from Martin w the wrong strings. Gave me a FF Flemish recurve string (large loop) 58 inches long for it (4 inches shorter). Put it on the bow and the brace height is a tad high at 7.75 inches (specs say 6.75-7.5), so looks like 3 inches shorter (59 inches) would be better.

Thanks.


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

I believe amo for recurve is four inches shorter. If you have a 60 inch bow you have a 56 inch string. In my experience this has always been correct. you may need to twist it up a little to get your desired brace height. Now a long bow has alway been 3inches. not sure why. you could use the same string but you would have to twist it up a bunch on the longbow. 
good luck
Ray


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

With FF, D97, or any of the newer string material I go 3 inches shorter since those materials do not stretch much at all. With Dacron it'd be 4 inches lower since it tends to stretch a lot. You can tell if a string is too long/short by checking your brace height. You should be able to get within the manufacturer's suggested range with not too much or too little string twisting.


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## pixie (Jan 5, 2004)

newbie question:

What's brace height, and how can it vary? What happens if it is too large or small?

thanks!


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

brace height is measured from the throat of the grip to the string.
your bow will perform best within a certain range, depending on your shooting style. if your brace height is to low you may get extra noise if it is too high your arrow will be slower. 
Ray


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

What Ray said. Set your brace height at the lowest and slowly twist up your string to increase your brace height. The higher you go the more quiet it gets until it starts to "peak" and it doesn't get any quieter. I go back to where started to peak at and make sure my brace height stays there. Its easier to notice a difference in noise without any silencers (limb savers, cat whiskers, etc) on your bow. 

That's just how I do it. Most references are pretty vague about finding the correct brace height.


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## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

I feel that brace height is a very important tool to constantly check when shooting. Did you know that in high heat and direct sunlight when shooting your brace height will shorten considerably. Think what this does to your string nock and the performance of your arrow. 

When shooting 3 D, I carry a bow square with me all the time to check my brace height and make adjustments as I go. I know my bow and I know how she shoots and I can tell if a considerable stretch has occurred.

Trivia. Brace height is a newer term for the original term "fistmele". Fistmele, is a derivitive of the word fist. Archers used to check their brace height by applying their fist between the string and the back of the riser for a check. You can adjust the fist method by sticking out your thumb like hitch hiking. A very good tool if you do not want to carry a bow square.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

swamp - 

Still don't buy the bit about excessive stretch. Been making B-50 strings for 30 years and don't recall too many needing additional twists after the initial break in, about two hours. If your string is changing that much, find a new string maker.

Also, loose the bow square; in the field, it's excess bagage. That's what your cresting is for. 

Viper1 out.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

HA...excessive baggage...i'm keepin MY bowsquare in my quiver!


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## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

Viper, I purchase ALL my strings from Three Rivers Archery, All B-50 material. My bow takes a 57 inch string, non fastflight. 

I buy three strings at a time, one flemish and others regular strings, 15 strand, B-50. Upon arrival, I will hang a gallon paint can from a suspended string, and in two days it will stretch about 2 inches, I twist it up, and shoot it in, then they will continue to stretch a bit now and then. I have found that when a dacron string ceases to stretch then it will break.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

AMO (or whatever it's called now) states that the proper string length, recurve or longbow, is 3" shorter than the AMO bow length. This will work if the bow is made by AMO specs. I've made strings for longbows that were 2" shorter than the bow length, and once owned an old Herters recurve that got a string 6" shorter than the bow length (stated that on the riser).

How much and how fast dacron stretches depends on several things--how many strands are in the string, the bow's weight, how much it's shot, temperature (hotter temps=more stretch), flemish vs. endless, who made it, etc. Dacron has much more stretch/creep than any of the other materials I have used. I have a jig for pre-stretching/serving strings, and I can get well over 3" of stretch (by stretch I mean it will recover when the pressure is taken off) with it, but the jig does put more tension on the string than most bows would.

I don't claim to be an expert when it comes to making strings, but I do believe that after a few thousand I have the basics figured out. Talked to a bowyer friend last night who made a 160 lb recurve that I made a string for (Dynaflight '97). He had it at a tournament and for kicks they were shooting it as a foot bow. It was shot several times, and dry-fired (accidently) twice. The string held up fine (flemish).

Chad


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

swamp -

Don't know what to tell ya, I never worry about over all string length, but my brace heights don't change, enough to require twists after the initial load. 

(note to self: don't buy strings from 3Rivers)

LBR - that may be a point, if swamps talking about the difference between a relaxed string and one under presure, sure. But who cares? It's the brace height that matters, not the string length, .

Viper1 out.


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## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

Ok, here we go...

On my Damon Howatt Ventura recurve 66 inch AMO, Martin says the brace heoght should be 8- 8 1/2 inches. I get 8 inches w a 61 inch dacron Flemish string (5 inches shorter) w no twisting.

On my Martin Savannah longbow 62 inch AMO, Martin says the brace height should be 6 3/4 - 7 1/2 inches. I get 7 1/2 inches w a 59 inch dacron Flemish string (3 inches shorter) that I twist about 15 times. That too much twisting?

If I use a 58 inch string (4 inches shorter), the brace height is too high at 8 inches (can't make it longer since I was told not to untwist Flremish strings...)

So again, how much twisting is too much twisting? 

Go w the 59 and twisting, or the 58 w a brace height 1/2 inch too high?


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

> I feel that brace height is a very important tool to constantly check when shooting. Did you know that in high heat and direct sunlight when shooting your brace height will shorten considerably. Think what this does to your string nock and the performance of your arrow.


qouted for truth! good post steve! I keep a bowsquare with me during ALL shooting excursions. If your brace moves then so does your nock, etc. My fast flight moves constantly and am having to check it on a regular basis..if my shooting goes squirrely the first thing i check is the brace...if it drops...the properly spined arrows that shoot so well might not be so properly spined anymore nad you'll have some bad flight and in the end bad shots. YOU WANNA SHOOT AS GOOD AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN....KEEP A BOWSQUARE WITH YOU. You'd be suprised...for those who don't...well that's there choice. I've seen it first hand so i'm stickin with the square. 
Being anal about my equipment has helped get me to where i am today. I can notice a big difference in a quater inch of brace movement...hell even a single twist can open or close up a group. I've been experimenting to the point that i'm putting in or takin out half twists to find the sweet spot for those arrows AND GUESS WHAT! all that extra time and attention to detail is payin off.


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## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

one more comment on string stretching while strung. I agree with viper that a string will contain memory when NOT under stress. But, when you string your bow and after 1/2 hour of practicing, and your string stretches, your string nock will most likely higher and your brace height will be less. 

When this happens, your anchor will not deliver the same poundage and your arrows will group lower. 

I do not carry a square but I use my fist like in the old times and I can see where my string is.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

want one?! i have 2 steve! i owe you one for the books anyway!


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

You can also add a little piece of tape, a mark with a marker, stop your cresting, or other markings on your arrow where the back of the bow should line up with your correct brace height. When you knock your arrow just look at it and see, then you can check at every shot. If I carried a bow square I would loose it in the woods the first or second time out.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

swamp - 

Any string material will stretch, what I said was that after the initial load, I generally don't have to worry about it any more. My std procedure is to spin the new string, to the length of the string I'm replacing, +/-, if I want to go higher or lower on the BH. When the end loops are done, I put it on the bow, and let it sit for a few hours. Then do the center serving and nock. Notice I didn't mention twists, I generally don't or use VERY few twists. After that, I generally don't worry about it, except for putting silencers on, if nec. When folks start talking about 2" of stretch, that would drop my BH considerably, and in 30 some odd years, t'ain't happened.

Also, my average practice session is about 300 - 400 arrows, indoors or out, and my groups, or point of impact doesn't change. And as far as "poundage" changing, sorry, that's been disproven too many times over the last 50+ years, on a given bow, the draw weight stays the same regardless of the BH. Don't believe me? Get a bow scale and two or three different string lenghts and see. Of course if your string stretches enough to move your nocking point, you'll have problems, but that has happen to me yet.

strcpy - THAT'S WHAT I SAID ABOUT 8 POSTS AGO. 



> Also, loose the bow square; in the field, it's excess bagage. That's what your cresting is for.


Sorry folks, when I see guys pulling out bow squares ever 1/2 hour, it just seems pretty stupid. When ever you nock an arrow you have a bow square. (Yes, I do have some arrows with out crests, like my backup target set. Fuun though, the little X& logo, just happens to center itself over the arrow rest.

Viper out.


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

That was about 7-8 days before I posted and I didn't remeber it. People were still going on about the bow square so I thought I would point it out.

Never had mine change while shooting either so I do not really bother with it. I do check it everyonce in a while or if my shooting is going really high or low consisantly though it has always just been me.


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## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

*Twist & Shout?*

How much twisting is too much twisting? Well, obviously if its knotting up, you twisted it too much... 

Folks at 3 Rivers told me the min twist for a Flemish string is at least one twist every 2 inches (don't untwist more than that), 3 twists per 2 inches is ideal, and 6 twists per 2 inches the max (don't twist more than that).

"fast flight" (FF) type or not? Hmmm... found this at Bob Lee (Wing) Archery:

NOTICE
While the use of fast-flight increases arrow speeds, we DO NOT recommend it.
Fast flight is very unforgiving, and we will not warrant the unnecessary trauma to our equipment.

Then again, Blak Widow ships FF strings w it's bows. Martin is shipping fast flight type strings w the Savannah longbow... put a 3 Rivers 59 in dacron string on mine and needed 15 twists to get a 7 1/2 in brace height. Put a 59 in FF string on it and it was right at 7 1/2 inches just as it hangs out of the package...

I guess it's kinda like using +P ammo in your pistol? If it's older, or an older design, FF is not a good idea. If it's newer and/or designed stronger for it, FF is no problem? IOW, if the tips are reinforced, don't worry about it?


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Actually, unless they have changed recently, BW sends a Dynaflight '97 string out with their bows--swapped over from FF a few years ago.

Bob Lee is what I'd call "old school"--like a few other bowyers, he still doesn't trust the "high performance" materials on his bows. They have much less stretch than dacron, and some bowyers feel that this may shorten the life of the bow considerably. I have yet to see or hear of a bow that was built for these materials be damaged by them.

Built up tips are not the only thing that makes a bow compatable for the new materials--the string grooves also need to be cut at the proper angle. I wouldn't use them unless the bowyer/manufacturer gives the ok.

Have you shot the FF string yet? My bet is it will settle in some--probably not as much as the dacron, but a Flemish twist string will have some slack in the twist that generally has to be shot out. I have a jig to pre-stretch my strings, but they still require some shooting to get every bit of the slack out. In my opinion, that was an unusual amount of stretch on the dacron string, unless it wasn't pre-stretched.

Chad


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## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

*Sloppy stuff*

Sorry, by "FF" I meant fast flight type strings, the newer materials in general, not any particular brand.

Shot the "ff" string (#372 Ultra Cam) all morning, BH changed less than 1/4 inch from when I put it on.


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## 30coupe (Jan 20, 2009)

Mahaska is another bow company that doesn't warranty their bows for low stretch string. I had one of Kent's longbows that was a real thumper with dacron string. It shot great, but the hand shock was an elbow killer. Since it was a used bow when I got it, I decided to make a 10 strand D97 Flemish string with the loops padded to 16 with the addition of dacron strands (55# bow). I don't know about more speed, but the bow was quieter and the hand shock was GONE! I could not believe it was the same bow! I put the 14 string back on it and the thump returned. Just to make sure it was the material, I twisted up a new B50 string, and sure enough, the hand shock was back. Now I mainly use my spools of B50 for padding string loops and my old Bear recurve. I agree with Chad that a well built string of any material will stretch very little once it settles in. Even B50 strings are pretty stable in my experience. Since I build my own and prestretch them before adding the center serving, I have no one to blame but me if they are inferior. I haven't bought a string in over 40 years and usually change out the ones that come on any bow I buy pretty quickly. It's not that I feel superior to all you string makers out there. It's more a matter of being cheap, lol! Most of the bows I've gotten have strings that are way fatter than necessary...another reason for me to replace them. I've kind of settled on 8 to 10 strands of D97 as all my bows are 53# and under. A three bundle, nine strand string with padded loops makes a great string.

By the way, while AMO string length has always been 3" shorter than the "AMO" length of the bow, I've found that the old rule of thumb of 4" for recurves and 3" for longbows and come out pretty close on the brace height, which is also quite variable. I have found, though, that most of the modern recurve bows are much closer to the 3" AMO standard than the older ones were. I'm sure all the custom string makers out there would be way happier if all of them were that way, but that's kind of unlikely, I'm afraid.


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