# Border Limbs and World Cup/International Events



## martinkartin (Aug 6, 2012)

Hi, just a random thought but why don't we see many/any archers shooting Border limbs at world cup or international events? I understand that some are paid to shoot specific brands but someone out there shooting Border limbs must be performing at a high enough level to qualify for these events shouldn't they? I was just wondering as I've read wonderful things about borders but don't see them receive much 'mainstream' attention. Are they just not preferred for the olympic distance?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh geez. Now you've gone and opened that can back up.

heading for the popcorn now...


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Border puts it's Focus into the Hex range even though they make an outstanding conventional limb (CV limbs), I think the Hex limb might be a bit too radical for Target Archers, do they really need that extra smoothness the Hex offers when shooting through a clicker. 

The Hex/CV limbs have done well in Flight, 3D and Field so they are a proven product. I've had good success over the last 14 months with my CV-H limbs winning International medals in Field, 3D and Indoors.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I see no one really wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole . I was kinda hoping this is going to be a good read.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

I've been interested in them for a while. They do look crazy, but given how much smoother I noticed my old Uukha's were and the Border Hex limbs are even more dramatic, I'd think they'd be great for target shooting. The only thing I'd be concerned about would be which size to get to have the same string angle that I'm used to.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i dont know why they arent seen more frequently. Perhaps they are not stocked and as a special order many dont want to try them? 



Chris


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

I know Demmers and Mageras thought on the Border limbs. I have tried a lot of different limbs and I still swear by the Borders. If I had the time to practice 1/10th of the time that Demmer, Martin, and some of the other hotshots, I don't think we would be having this discussion because there would only be Border limbs in the winners circles.:teeth:.As it is, Border limbs have accounted for two gold and a silver medal in the last two WA field championships. As far as oly style, I think we all know that money and equipment sponsorships rule the day so that kind of leaves a small company like Borders at the starting gate. Take away sponsorships and I feel you would be seeing a lot more Borders on the shooting line.


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## deeeejc (Mar 19, 2011)

I just ordered a set to try on my oly rig. I will write a review once I get them. Cant wait!


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

the only reason i can think of is that the large OEMs are very aggressive at marketing and promoting their products and are not adverse to "sponsoring" most if not all of the current elite and promising archers...

Borders does not do that..


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

because most people buy base on advertisements/marketing hype....border doesn't do that, they simply produce quality product.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

I personally prefer them for olympic distance as they let you get there with either less draw weight or more arrow weight, whichever floats your boat. I get about 215-220 fps out of my set, the average set up hits about 200 fps in my experience. This is with my arrows weighing in above 370 grains. My trajectory is visibly flatter and the wind drift less noticeable because of this. 

There are however quirks to the hex limbs that need addressing should you want a set that may be off putting to the majority of shooters. Different spine often being required, different tuning settings and the requirement for a lower brace height and so a different string length are a few of the issues. Going from a standard medium limb to a hex 6 medium limb for example requires a 1 - 1.5 inch longer string. Arrow weights have to be higher to keep within safe limits and to protect longevity of the bow.

If you're a technical type that is happy to play around with your kit and it is something you enjoy doing then you may take the challenge of rethinking your mindset and setting up the slightly unorthodox design in your stride. If you just want to stick a new limb into your bow, change the bolt position to get the poundage for your old set of arrows to work and shoot away then you just won't like them in my experience. I can't see many high level shooters being bothered with going through the rigmarole of all of this when they could use any set of standard profile limbs with very predictable results from their past experience. This is all before I even address the massive difference in feel on the draw, length of wait to get a set made, and relatively high cost.

Beautiful limbs, downright excellent design and it's clear that buckets of thought went into making them. They just aren't for everyone though and it's hard to get exposed to them without taking the plunge and buying a set. Not sure if Sid still has his 28 day return policy on them but used to be you could return them.

If you wanted any more reason why you might not see them around much; there's only about 10 folks at Border all of which need a paycheck for being involved in the handcrafting of these bows. Can't rightly give out a set of limbs that would be about equivalent cost to one of your staff's pay for the week or more for sponsorship which is ultimately a gamble.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

I have a new set of Border HEx 7b on a W&W Inno Max riser.
View attachment 2225806

Still working on tune. Center shot is super critical. Brace height starts at 7 1/4",, at 7 3/4 today. Sounds like a 223 shot. Will give neighboring folks on the shooting line fits!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Demmer said:


> I see no one really wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole . I was kinda hoping this is going to be a good read.


Lol


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

anmactire said:


> If you're a technical type that is happy to play around with your kit and it is something you enjoy doing then you may take the challenge of rethinking your mindset and setting up the slightly unorthodox design in your stride. If you just want to stick a new limb into your bow, change the bolt position to get the poundage for your old set of arrows to work and shoot away then you just won't like them in my experience. I can't see many high level shooters being bothered with going through the rigmarole of all of this when they could use any set of standard profile limbs with very predictable results from their past experience.


Wow, there really are many archers out there who would rather shoot conventional limbs than try possibly better performing limbs because they require some tuning? Until now that possibility would have never crossed my mind. Interesting...


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## Varza (Sep 11, 2014)

It's not the limbs. It's the archer.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I thought long and hard before answering this since I both like the Sids and their product.

Sponsorship is definitely part of it, but then again plenty of World Cup archers are shooting non-sponsored gear (MK doesn't sponsor apparently).
I think one of the largest reasons is one of supply. An archer wants to have some back-ups and the possibility of replacing them pretty quickly. Not exactly possible with the boutique manufacturing process used by Border.
Lastly I'd say that the Hex limbs are where the vast majority of Border's energy and marketing take place. Although they are a good limb which works well for some archers they also aren't exactly like any other limb and do require a pretty significant rethink of how you tune a bow. For me personally I don't shoot them as well as a more conventional design, but I can't argue with their performance numbers which are exceptional. Border produce a much less well marketed conventional limb (CV series) which in my mind may be the best limb in the world and if not for the first two factors could definitely compete with anything on the World Stage.

-Grant


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

ksarcher said:


> Sounds like a 223 shot. Will give neighboring folks on the shooting line fits!


Q. Competitive advantage or ridiculous annoyance? A. Yes :wink:



grantmac said:


> Sponsorship is definitely part of it


Anyone know the percentage of sponsorship? Seems like it's all Hoyt and W&W. Samick has fallen by the wayside and surprised we're not seeing Fivics more.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Grant having shot both the Hex6 and CV limb I have to say I have a preference for the CV-H limbs, the Hex's shot good and felt nice and soft at anchor but for some reason I've been shooting way better scores with the CV's, although the Hex's are rated faster I had the same 60y point on. I never got the chance to put both side by side through the Chrono but I'm guessing it would only be around 3 fps difference.

Just my feeling/opinion but with the Hex6's if a poor shot it was horrible and way out the group (maybe because of the lower than standard brace height), if I make less than perfect shot with the CV's it's not so horrible or far out of the group. Then again that great feeling "it's an X" before the arrow has cleared the riser happened more often with the Hex's, if I was a better and more consistent shot maybe I could have made the Hex's work better for me.:thumbs_up


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

blue_ridge said:


> Wow, there really are many archers out there who would rather shoot conventional limbs than try possibly better performing limbs because they require some tuning? Until now that possibility would have never crossed my mind. Interesting...


Not just _some tuning_, but rather a lot of tuning. They're a different beast to get working and you can't do what you would with a standard limb e.g. "oh, it's a whatever inch bow I'll start at x brace height, with string length of y, slot them into my riser with my previous button and settings and shoot my z spine arrows from it that always work around that poundage". Trust me, they're hard to get working and it's not the best way to spend training time if you're limited. Once it's set it's set but you'll spend a while getting there.



ksarcher said:


> Sounds like a 223 shot. Will give neighboring folks on the shooting line fits!


This is likely a clearance issue. When you're getting that noise you're probably just out on spine and the nock is clipping the button. Play around more until that goes away. My hex 6 do that when I change things or let the string lose twists. Usually a few small tweaks get it back sounding smooth.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> I see no one really wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole . I was kinda hoping this is going to be a good read.


Just marking so I can remember to read...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Matt Z said:


> Q. Competitive advantage or ridiculous annoyance? A. Yes :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know the percentage of sponsorship? Seems like it's all Hoyt and W&W. Samick has fallen by the wayside and surprised we're not seeing Fivics more.


Samick and Fivics were involved in a scandal in Korea and now have a lesser visible role in the Korean Archery system as sponsors.


Chris


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

There are 4 levels of sponsorship in archery from bow makers
- level 1 (Hoyt and W&W) gives equipments and contingency money as well, up to big numbers, for victories in major events, as well some fixed money and reimburse of travel and registrations expenses
- level 2 (Hoyt and W&W) gives equipments and contingency money as well, up to big numbers, for victories in major events
- level 3 (other smaller manufacturers) give equipments and sometime contingency money for victories in major events
- level 4 (other even smaller manufacturers) give some discount on equipments 

All manufacturers give equipments to archers under one of the 4 conditions, but of course they give them in percentage their sales, choosing best archers to sponsor in relationshiop to their specific marke(s). Very small companies like mine will be happy to have may be 2/3 archers shooting G1 riser and 4/5 using GS6 stabilizers in Anytalya World cup at the end of this month. Over may be 400 recurve archers participating. 

Then, inside each level, there are several sub levels, as none is equal in archery (or any other sports). But from the archer point of view, the most important point is to get GOOD equipments when you NEED them. If you look to the total quantity of GOOD bows coreans may need in one year, you will esily understnad why they will mainly relay to local manufacturers for their needs, sponsored or not sponsored. Useles to be "sponsored" by any maker if you can't get eh bow you need when you need it . 

Being limbs and arrows the key to the target, world level archers know they have to accept sometime compromises to follow their sponsors for them, but minor items like sights , stabilizers, nocks, vanes don't give big rewards (if any) for victories, so they are varied much easier than bows and arrows.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

There are some who have flirted with the idea (pic from Shanghai 2010 World Cup).

Some find sponsors among the major manufacturers, others move to other stuff. Last time I saw the archer in that photo shoot, he was using Uukhas.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

grantmac said:


> I thought long and hard before answering this since I both like the Sids and their product.
> 
> Sponsorship is definitely part of it, but then again plenty of World Cup archers are shooting non-sponsored gear (MK doesn't sponsor apparently).
> I think one of the largest reasons is one of supply. An archer wants to have some back-ups and the possibility of replacing them pretty quickly. Not exactly possible with the boutique manufacturing process used by Border.
> ...


I can't disagree with any of this. Jim Belcher at SKY is experiencing some of the same supply/demand issues. The reason you don't see more Border or SKY limbs is because of availability cannot meet the demand. Both are capable of producing world class limbs, but when only a few people can get them, and it's hard to get identical pairs or replacement sets, you just aren't going to see many on the lines. When you don't see many on the lines, they don't draw attention and the masses look to other brands. Because they don't produce many pairs, they have a smaller profit margin. Because they have a smaller profit margin, they don't have a marketing budget (that includes sponsorships). And finally, because they don't have a marketing budget, you don't see many on the lines. It's a never-ending catch-22 for small manufacturers.

I had one pair of Border Hex limbs that for a little while, was shooting the smallest 18m barebow groups I've ever seen from any bow. I mean impossibly tiny groups. A week before nationals in 2011, I dropped that bow on the concrete floor of my garage, and the lower limb separated (foam core). I had to shoot Nationals that year with a different set of "conventional" limbs. Had I been able to shoot with those Border limbs, I have no doubt I would have shot 20 points higher. If you can get them tuned, they are capable of extreme performance.

John


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> I can't disagree with any of this. Jim Belcher at SKY is experiencing some of the same supply/demand issues. The reason you don't see more Border or SKY limbs is because of availability cannot meet the demand. Both are capable of producing world class limbs, but when only a few people can get them, and it's hard to get identical pairs or replacement sets, you just aren't going to see many on the lines. When you don't see many on the lines, they don't draw attention and the masses look to other brands. Because they don't produce many pairs, they have a smaller profit margin. Because they have a smaller profit margin, they don't have a marketing budget (that includes sponsorships). And finally, because they don't have a marketing budget, you don't see many on the lines. It's a never-ending catch-22 for small manufacturers.
> 
> I had one pair of Border Hex limbs that for a little while, was shooting the smallest 18m barebow groups I've ever seen from any bow. I mean impossibly tiny groups. A week before nationals in 2011, I dropped that bow on the concrete floor of my garage, and the lower limb separated (foam core). I had to shoot Nationals that year with a different set of "conventional" limbs. Had I been able to shoot with those Border limbs, I have no doubt I would have shot 20 points higher. If you can get them tuned, they are capable of extreme performance.
> 
> John


I wasn't aware you experienced phenomenal grouping with the borders. Last I read you just didn't like the feel through the clicker? Did you try more than 1 set of borders and the set that broke was a freak set, or due to lack of availability you just had the one pair and never ordered another set? Im hearing the big hooks make you pay when your not perfect, more so than conventional limbs. Seems Morley has found the same thing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Apparently all some people heard or read about my experience with the Border limbs was the bad stuff. I heard a LOT from a few people about the few things I didn't care for about those limbs. A lot. And that's all I'll say about that.

Yes, I exerienced some phenomenal 18m groups with my first set of Borders. I still have one of those limbs hanging up in my garage. Made me sick that they delaminated like that - they were shooting that well.

For Olympic, I never got along with them as well as I had hoped to. I tried 2 more sets, and although the numbers were superb, the feel through the clicker was not at all what I was used to, and I could never achieve the quality of tune and grouping with them that I could with my SKY or W&W or Samick limbs. They are truly a different beast. By the time I received the second and third sets of Borders, I was running short on time before the 2nd leg of the 2012 Olympic trials and had to make a decision. If I had more time to shoot the Borders, there is a good chance I would have used them, but I was too short on time, so I had to go with what I knew. Unfortunately, that may have cost me in the long run since one of my pairs of SKY limbs had a failure (fractured carbon layer) that I didn't find until the end of day one of that event. 

Apparently my decision to not use them at the Oly. trials also cost me in other ways. Oh well.

Soon after I sent a set to a fellow AT member to test, then sent the other set to them later on. By then, I was busy testing SKY limbs for Jim. 

I know Ben and Alan and others have had stellar barebow results with their Border limbs. I would be willing to try them again for my barebow rig, but found that for my Olympic rigs, I just prefer a more conventional limb that gives me predictable results and a draw force curve I'm familiar with at the clicker.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I can't disagree with any of this. Jim Belcher at SKY is experiencing some of the same supply/demand issues. The reason you don't see more Border or SKY limbs is because of availability cannot meet the demand. Both are capable of producing world class limbs, but when only a few people can get them, and it's hard to get identical pairs or replacement sets, you just aren't going to see many on the lines. When you don't see many on the lines, they don't draw attention and the masses look to other brands. Because they don't produce many pairs, they have a smaller profit margin. Because they have a smaller profit margin, they don't have a marketing budget (that includes sponsorships). And finally, because they don't have a marketing budget, you don't see many on the lines. It's a never-ending catch-22 for small manufacturers.


Classic small business decision of the open market. A presumed demand may be there, but as a business owner am I willing to invest capital to produce target products that might not sell. Especially when manufacturing, man power and marketing is being consumed by traditional/hunting markets at small margins due to low quantity production. Hoyt has the opposite situation having large capital created from the hunting markets allow R&D and production to flow into their target markets.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

kenn1320 said:


> I wasn't aware you experienced phenomenal grouping with the borders. Last I read you just didn't like the feel through the clicker? Did you try more than 1 set of borders and the set that broke was a freak set, or due to lack of availability you just had the one pair and never ordered another set? Im hearing the big hooks make you pay when your not perfect, more so than conventional limbs. Seems Morley has found the same thing.


Kenn, I don't know anyone who is perfect, I know for sure I'm not. With that said, I can't find a thing wrong with my Borders.I don't experience wild shots except when I do a whoops. I don't find tuning them any different from other limbs. The one thing I do( or don't do) with them is shoot them at low brace height. I have found that for me they shoot optimally at about 8.5 to 9.0 inch brace height. You give up some of the speed advantage but gain accuracy, consistency, and keep the smooth tail end of the draw.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

itbeso said:


> The one thing I do( or don't do) with them is shoot them at low brace height. I have found that for me they shoot optimally at about 8.5 to 9.0 inch brace height. You give up some of the speed advantage but gain accuracy, consistency, and keep the smooth tail end of the draw.


This is something I will be playing around with as well since the low BH is not working well for me. It seems that the people getting the best results are all longer draw guys using long limbs with corresponding larger BH.

Also my best shooting with them was using EXTREMELY stiff arrows.

Ultimately though I will not be buying another set.

-Grant


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

grantmac said:


> This is something I will be playing around with as well since the low BH is not working well for me. It seems that the people getting the best results are all longer draw guys using long limbs with corresponding larger BH.
> 
> Also my best shooting with them was using EXTREMELY stiff arrows.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much how I always found it. Using very high brace and slightly stiff arrow I got best consistency of tuning when I was shooting Borders. One pair I have left, I'm running with 24.3cm brace for 70" which gives me predictable results.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

The noise issue is from the 7 to 7 1/2" brace height.... IT IS NOT A CLEARANCE ISSUE!!! I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday!!!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> This is something I will be playing around with as well since the low BH is not working well for me. It seems that the people getting the best results are all longer draw guys using long limbs with corresponding larger BH.
> 
> Also my best shooting with them was using EXTREMELY stiff arrows.
> 
> ...


Interesting Grant. I felt like I might be too weak of spine with my 500 spine arrows @ 28.75 inches. I let a fellow archer shoot my bow, 50.5 pounds, with his identical Black Eagle 500 spine arrows but about 2 inches longer than mine. His arrows came out like darts which is causing me to rethink things.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Low brace ht should give more speed, not less. Also should require a weaker arrow than a higher brace. One reason the Borders may require a lower brace is because at rest, they resemble a bow that is 2" shorter due to the extreme recurve. 

One appealing characteristic of the Border limbs I shot was that they shot a weaker arrow faster than a comparable traditional ILF limb. This was my experience. Performance-wise, it was a win-win. 

My issue was vertical stability. Torsionally, they are super rigid, but every extreme recurve I've ever shot is vertically less stable than a conventional recurve. Border, ACS, Dryad, etc. All of them suffer from vertical instability. Maybe it's an issue, maybe not, but you can see this when you grip the string and pull up and down on it, then compare it to a conventional limb and do the same thing. 

John


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

John,

The HEX7 is designed to solve the Vertical Stability issue. Time will tell. There are not many 7's out there yet.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Interesting Grant. I felt like I might be too weak of spine with my 500 spine arrows @ 28.75 inches. I let a fellow archer shoot my bow, 50.5 pounds, with his identical Black Eagle 500 spine arrows but about 2 inches longer than mine. His arrows came out like darts which is causing me to rethink things.



28.5" 600 spine with 100gr on the front for 35# tuned well stringwalking. A 32" 300 spine with 150gr up front tuned well for gap.

Both way stiff for the poundage but anything weaker didn't shoot well.

-Grant


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

grantmac said:


> 28.5" 600 spine with 100gr on the front for 35# tuned well stringwalking. A 32" 300 spine with 150gr up front tuned well for gap.
> 
> Both way stiff for the poundage but anything weaker didn't shoot well.
> 
> -Grant


Grant your numbers are not surprising to me, i find 400 at 32" weak at 38lbs and suspect 340 would be good.

Ben I would be afraid to shoot a 500 out of 50lbs, not sure how you get that to tune...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ksarcher said:


> John,
> 
> The HEX7 is designed to solve the Vertical Stability issue. Time will tell. There are not many 7's out there yet.


Hope that's the case. Nobody that I've seen has solved the vertical stability issue on an extreme recurve, yet.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Low brace ht should give more speed, not less.


Are there any bow draw force curves that defy this general truism? I know that lower BH means longer power stroke which typically translates to more acceleration and higher speed, but would a bow that really stacks still give a higher speed with a lower BH?


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Most guys I know that still use Hex limbs shoot them with high brace heights making them real noisy. Not sure why they ignore the manufacturers advice but they do.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

kenn1320 said:


> Grant your numbers are not surprising to me, i find 400 at 32" weak at 38lbs and suspect 340 would be good.
> 
> Ben I would be afraid to shoot a 500 out of 50lbs, not sure how you get that to tune...


You should REALLY give the GT series 22 a try. Not expensive, really light and pretty tough.




limbwalker said:


> Hope that's the case. Nobody that I've seen has solved the vertical stability issue on an extreme recurve, yet.


They are extremely vertically stable at the low BH, just not really easy to shoot in my experience. I think a bow with a lot of deflex would really work well with them.

-Grant

P.S. Ben: what shaft were you comparing to the Black Eagle?


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

martinkartin said:


> Hi, just a random thought but why don't we see many/any archers shooting Border limbs at world cup or international events?


because they're not paid to do so.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I generally shoot around 46-47# at 32 and a bit inches. I've usually shot ACE 400 cut to 32.5" or 430 cut about 1cm from back to same length. With Border I always got best results using 370's tuned so that bare shaft is about 3" on the stiff side on 50m. 400's and 430's just didn't group at all no matter how well they should have been tuned.

I generally run my limbs at around 23.7cm brace, I found with Borders (hex4's and CX's at the time) that if I went with lower as they recommended, I got fliers every 10 arrows or so, unexpected low of high hits that went completely away with high brace. Never saw any improvement to grouping by lowering brace height and speed gain with my draw was minimal.

You could feel the lack of vertical stability even at full draw if there was a head-on breeze, the limbs started bobbing around like a tiller. And when I hit my target panic and started freezing at full draw, everything used to shake like mad when I was struggling to get through clicker.

In the end they just felt too critical, in a good day grouping was very good, when I was having a bad day and my form was a bit off, I got a lot of strange hits, and I saw clear improvement in consistency when I went to W&W limbs. That was back in 2008 or so, when I was shooting over 40,000 shots / year and constantly punching 52-56 ends at 70m in practice.

I see the point of Borders in hunting rig. I tried to shoot field with them, but I didn't find them comfortable with angled shots, conventional limbs were more predictable to get right draw length straight away. Still, the most consistent limbs I've ever shot are my old, old carbofast-marked Border carbons with pretty conventional limb profile.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> I generally shoot around 46-47# at 32 and a bit inches. I've usually shot ACE 400 cut to 32.5" or 430 cut about 1cm from back to same length. With Border I always got best results using 370's tuned so that bare shaft is about 3" on the stiff side on 50m. 400's and 430's just didn't group at all no matter how well they should have been tuned.
> 
> I generally run my limbs at around 23.7cm brace, I found with Borders (hex4's and CX's at the time) that if I went with lower as they recommended, I got fliers every 10 arrows or so, unexpected low of high hits that went completely away with high brace. Never saw any improvement to grouping by lowering brace height and speed gain with my draw was minimal.
> 
> ...


Head on breeze... thats the best yet...


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

When wind hits bow and heavy stabs, there is a LOT of movement  When it starts moving, you are only connected to the bow in two places and there is a system in between. It's all about levers at that point.

I think these are things that really matter only if you shoot full olympic rig with a clicker. If I was shooting a hunting bow, there's no need to worry about feeling and stability of draw through clicker as I haven't got any.

That's basically the issue I've always had with radical curve limbs, from any manufacturer. The feeling at clicker is too "loose", if I try to describe it. It doesn't give me confidence through shot. And you can feel any movement that's not on the right vector at that point.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> When wind hits bow and heavy stabs, there is a LOT of movement
> 
> When it starts moving, you are only connected to the bow in two places and there is a system in between. It's all about levers at that point.
> 
> I think these are things that really matter only if you shoot full olympic rig with a clicker. If I was shooting a hunting bow, there's no need to worry about feeling and stability of draw through clicker as I haven't got any.


so recruve shape... makes wind effect limbs asymmetrically...

neat!

and is only applicatble to bows with longrods and clickers

yet Uukha seem OK with it.

:-D

it gets better... the asymmetrical effect of the wind is that large it can move the mass on the end of a longrod. some 30" away from the pivot.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

C'mon, you are just fighting with windmills now.

As I explained, the feeling of all radical recurve limbs have made same impact to me. It is just how I feel, and considering that I have shot Border limbs A LOT, I feel that I'm quite entitled to my opinion.

And have you actually shot in the wind with full stabs and olympic rig? If you have, you know it will move everything. Why the slim stabs then?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> C'mon, you are just fighting with windmills now.
> 
> As I explained, the feeling of all radical recurve limbs have made same impact to me. It is just how I feel, and considering that I have shot Border limbs A LOT, I feel that I'm quite entitled to my opinion.
> 
> And have you actually shot in the wind with full stabs and olympic rig? If you have, you know it will move everything. Why the slim stabs then?



so your body has nothing to do with wind resistance...

I think blaming recurve shape for causing an experience in a breaze is a little far fetched.

that's my opinion.


why slim stabs.... cos the round stab market is saturated?
its a difference that sounds neat...so should sell well?

its something you cant do easily in your garage with a piece of carbon rod?
it creates a Barrier to market for the smaller longrod shops?

maybe it does make a difference... but how much?

what about lycra cycling gear... that has less drag.. surely a windy day, you being the most awkward and by far the largest sail like shape... surely Lycra would stop you being buffeted about as much??


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

You are reading between lines. Recurve shape has nothing to do with wind resistance (or very little).

Radical curve limbs just feel looser at full draw and I feel the effect of wind and all other factors more with them than some others.

And are you really thinking that wind doesn't affect bows? Just watch few Antalya world cup videos and you might get an another idea. Or go outside in a gale and shoot with full olympic rig. Something like W&W Xpert with Beiter stabs. Then try some slim ones.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> You are reading between lines. Recurve shape has nothing to do with wind resistance (or very little).
> 
> Radical curve limbs just feel looser at full draw and I feel the effect of wind and all other factors more with them than some others.
> 
> And are you really thinking that wind doesn't affect bows? Just watch few Antalya world cup videos and you might get an another idea. Or go outside in a gale and shoot with full olympic rig. Something like W&W Xpert with Beiter stabs. Then try some slim ones.


it does effect bows. same as it effects your arm when you hold it out.

im just very supprised that a wind pushing a top and bottom limb (both exposed to the wind) would show a imbalance... your point was that the bows "instability" could be seen in a head wind.
I think your beef with border is somewhat clouding your observations.

have a look at my two threads ive started Zal, I bet I can find a pile of other things that will effect vertical stability way before you get to recurve shape...
I will also address longbow limbs.... see what you think of the topic...
I didn't want to detract from the OPs post, so ive started two of my own to see if I can address a few observations made in this thread.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

caspian said:


> because they're not paid to do so.


I bet it would surprise many how few archers actually are sponsored by the big companies. Some get free stuff, some get discount (like Vittorio said) and some shoot a brand in hoping to get sponsorship in future. But I know archers who have shot in olympics and have paid for their own equipment (and even borrowed some) without any sponsors. It's easier to get sponsorship where there are big archery markets. In my country there were about ten years when there were no sponsored recurve archers, but things have been picking up a bit lately.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Losing a LOT of respect for you right now Sid.

You are an engineer, not a top level shooter. Perhaps listening rather than always putting your product's performance limitations onto the user would be a good approach in the future.
Maybe your radical designs are a good example of how excellent engineering doesn't really work well if it was developed without the input of the human side of the equation?

-Grant


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Losing a LOT of respect for you right now Sid.
> 
> You are an engineer, not a top level shooter. Perhaps listening rather than always putting your product's performance limitations onto the user would be a good approach in the future.
> Maybe your radical designs are a good example of how excellent engineering doesn't really work well if it was developed without the input of the human side of the equation?
> ...


Grant, I'm going to have to side with Sid on this one. The opinions and hypotheses put out there by Zal were a little far fetched for even me to appreciate. And please expound on Borders limbs performance limitations, because I have yet to find any. Yet, you are not the only one on these threads who seem to be down on the hex limbs. I can't be the only having good luck with them.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Grant. If wind was observation driven rather than marketting driven. And the advent of aerodynamic longrods. You would have thought you would see a change to a more aerodrynamic sight.
http://www.angel-japan.net/eng-sight.htm

I really cant see headwind pushing a bow out of shape especially when the bow has a longrod on it.
what Zal is on about if ive read his coments right. Is about the vertical stability dispacing the limb shape asymetrically... which means the riser would be moving. And this movement would include the longrod.

I simply cant see that... having just taken a W&W setup and a Hex7 setup at full draw. It takes more effort than wind could muster to change the "tiller" measurements at full draw on both setups


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I can see both sides to this, my experience with Hex6 is when I was shooting well I saw no equal to this limb but when I was slightly off my game the limbs didn't really forgive me of my form mistakes, I feel the more conventional limb will shoot a little more consistent on bad Form days but wont give you that competitive edge the Hex's do on the really good days. 

It is more about the Archer than the limb, the Hex is just a different animal.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

steve morley said:


> I can see both sides to this, my experience with Hex6 is when I was shooting well I saw no equal to this limb but when I was slightly off my game the limbs didn't really forgive me of my form mistakes, I feel the more conventional limb will shoot a little more consistent on bad Form days but wont give you that competitive edge the Hex's do on the really good days.
> 
> It is more about the Archer than the limb, the Hex is just a different animal.


If you look at the report from Martin posted here and in tradtalk a while ago. You might notice that his score was the same with innos. As they were with hex6 Bb2 limbs. He passed remark about it being a little more erratic. But he was using the same arrows for all setups. And the one he scored best with was the one closest to his own bow for draw feel.
but the important fact is. He scored the same score with the most different feeling limb as he did with a limb that has won olympic titles....
thats what i took from his report...
the CV limb was closest to his own setup that he has years of shooting experience with...
hope im not missreading Martins report.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

A I'm not as good as Martin B the CV's bring the best out of my potential and very happy with this limbs performance


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## kakend (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Guys
I am by no means a top level archer, however I do have two or three years with Hex 6's and half a year with Hex 7's. I am getting Really good results with both. I have learned that its more than just dropping brace height, it is also turning the limb bolts in, and moving the plunger to allow more center shot. I get quiet bows at low BH that are shooting pretty good groups. The limiting factor for dropping the BH is running into contact with my wrist, which happens on the short side of 6.5" so my bows are at 7" (or there abouts). The Hex 7's are on a 21" Morrison riser and are braced at 7" so in proportion to my 68" and 70" has a "higher" BH, but man is that little thing COOL! Anyway I just wanted to chime in and saying I am having good results with Borders but am not in a position where I can comment on how they stack up in World Cup type event, cause I just ain't that good, but if I were they would be what I was shooting!

Have a great day,
Kasey


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Kasey, it's the low brace height that can cause problems with forgiveness. Target shooters with compound and recurve tend to prefer high brace heights.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Kasey, it's the low brace height that can cause problems with forgiveness. Target shooters with compound and recurve tend to prefer high brace heights.


No.... john. Thats a utterly untested hypothesis.... it so happens that low brace heighst with normal geometries dont work that well. Same as asking high brace heights with these geometries dont work too well either.

Just read Vittorios post on riser design on another post...

A proof of this is name a bow that has a different from normal geometry...
simply name one?
99% of recurves work with 8.5-9.5" brace heights.
but 99% of recurves are also stuck with the limitiations of UD glass.
99% of bow designs have been stuck with a 2lbs per inch rule. With 0.9se/pdf. 
There are alot of assumptions that have comeabout Due to the limitiations of materials and design.
remove these limitiations and you have to re-assess the limitiations of ALL your previous assuptions. Or else you will be stuck either thinking the world is flat. Or stuck thinking 30mph is as fast as the human body can go...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> No.... john. Thats a utterly untested hypothesis.... it so happens that low brace heighst with normal geometries dont work that well. Same as asking high brace heights with these geometries dont work too well either.
> 
> Just read Vittorios post on riser design on another post...
> 
> ...


Well Sid, Here is a tested hypothesis. I have shot my Border limbs in just about every combination you can imagine. What I have found is this. If I incorporate string walking into my shooting style, My border limbs do not function as well at a brace height less than 8.5 inches. If I am shooting up against the nock only, the limbs will function just fine at lower brace heights. I'm not an engineer by any means but I do want the most accurate set up I can shoot and for me that is 8.75 brace height, even tiller on my hex 6 bb2 limbs, stringwalking. If you have any information that you think would help me, please pm me. I know I have lots to still learn about this recurve shooting.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Pm sent.


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## gpb (Feb 14, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> No.... john. Thats a utterly untested hypothesis.... it so happens that low brace heighst with normal geometries dont work that well. Same as asking high brace heights with these geometries dont work too well either.
> 
> Just read Vittorios post on riser design on another post...
> 
> ...




I shoot olympic style split finger with a clicker on a Hoyt RX 27" riser. After extensive testing of brace ht from 7" to 9" my set of long (72" bow) Hex 6 bb2 worked best at 7.5" and my set of medium ( 70" bow ) Hex 7 worked best at a brace ht. of 7" The vertical stability of both limbs has been excellent as long as I pay careful attention to the curvature amount in the flat part of the limb as Sid pointed out. Both sets of limbs produce superb accuracy provided I use the correct spined arrows. Finding the best spine can be a challenge as the limbs will shoot well a wide range of spines. I found the best way to determine that is to shoot LOTS of fletched and bareshaft from no less that 50M. The smoothness of the limbs at full draw have substantially helped me improve my shooting form as I'm not struggling to get through the clicker. Getting used to the different feel of these limbs for me was only a few dozen shots. I'm still holding 46lb with the Hex 6 and 42lb with the Hex 7 but I don't have to put as much effort into moving them 1/8" to get the clicker to break as I did with limbs with conventional geometry.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I have a set of Merlin Elite limbs made by Border. What is the ideal brace height for these limbs? 25" riser with medium limbs.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Grant, I'm going to have to side with Sid on this one. The opinions and hypotheses put out there by Zal were a little far fetched for even me to appreciate. And please expound on Borders limbs performance limitations, because I have yet to find any. Yet, you are not the only one on these threads who seem to be down on the hex limbs. I can't be the only having good luck with them.


Ask Ren about shooting the Hex limbs.

I really like Border product and I've shot the Hex (5 and 6) at a reasonably high level, but they were never forgiving like conventional limbs especially when stringwalking and as such I'm putting them away for the foreseeable future. I may put them on a secondary riser specifically for NFAA Trad since they generally work quite well when shot against the nock.

I just don't see the Hex limbs as working universally well for everyone and unfortunately when that does occur the standard response on the part of Border is to put any lack of performance onto the archer using them rather than the characteristics of the limbs. I've been backwards and forwards, side to side trying to get a tune out of mine which is both correct and forgiving. Changed risers a few times as well. Ultimately at their best state of tune they shoot about as forgiving as a barely tuned set of conventional limbs for me.

-Grant


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Forgiving. Hahahahahaha


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Grant. your answer confuses me.

Ive never said its the archers problem. Ive always said it must be a setup issue. I asked Ren to run through some setup checks starting with the basics. And i didnt get a reply. Cant move onto some more complex checks. Then i read online that how pompus of me to think a man of Rens experience lead to him not replying to me.
your experience has left me puzzled.

My question is. How can some people shoot them well yet others not. Once all the "remote checks" are done we ask to see the limbs back to check "inhouse"
How can that process be left to the archer....
this isnt an arguement. As im honestly confused..
send me a pm telling me how you think we could improve and ill greatfully listen...


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> Grant. your answer confuses me.
> 
> Ive never said its the archers problem. Ive always said it must be a setup issue. I asked Ren to run through some setup checks starting with the basics. And i didnt get a reply. Cant move onto some more complex checks. Then i read online that how pompus of me to think a man of Rens experience lead to him not replying to me.
> your experience has left me puzzled.
> ...


It isn't a set-up issue for me and it wasn't a set-up issue for Ren, considering I spent over an hour on the phone with you going through the checks. The limbs just don't work all that well for some archers. 

As for sending them back, that would be an option if the cost was covered both ways and if I thought there was a remote possibility of something being wrong with the limbs. However the cost would have been mine and I have no doubt they left your care in exactly the specifications which you designed. I do however feel that those specifications just don't shoot that well for me.

When someone makes the observation that your limbs (specifically the Hex series) don't shoot that well for them the automatic response is that their tune is poor (although the limbs are claimed to have a very wide tune, which they don't in my experience) or their riser is not straight (although no other limb has an issue). I have never seen an instance where Border as a company have done anything but state the fault lies with the archer.

-Grant


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

You have left me gobsmacked Grant.
i waited for a PM.
infact i waited on a PM reply to the question i sent you on Thursday.
Thanks for your feedback. Though im not sure how to learn from this. 
Hence the reason im gobsmacked.

We have target archers claiming the bow is forgiving. And here we have some that say its not. 
Your saying its not a setup use yet i put about 100 points on a local paralimpic ladie's score before she went to london 2012 because her setup was out.

im confused by your answer and method of reply.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Borderbows said:


> Grant. your answer confuses me.
> 
> Ive never said its the archers problem. Ive always said it must be a setup issue. I asked Ren to run through some setup checks starting with the basics. And i didnt get a reply. Cant move onto some more complex checks. Then i read online that how pompus of me to think a man of Rens experience lead to him not replying to me.
> your experience has left me puzzled.
> ...


Sid,
You sir are a liar. I stayed out of these conversations as I did not want to say my real feelings in regards to YOU. However, since you decided to bring me into this with your lies once again. Your customer service is what sucks. My first set of Hex6H blew up after less than a month, I will no rehash all the specifics, but at 10 Grains per pound arrow weight and within the specs you told me for BH and they shot well (not great), but started to splinter within 4 weeks. Then the real battle began, after I sent you pictures and several PM's you refused to warrant them. Then after a week of going back and forth, your Dad offered me an upgrade for free. I received them,and sold them. After awhile you convinced me to give them another set a try, and for months played with trying to get them to shoot as well as my conventional limbs. We did correspond but I quit after you decided to tell me what an incompetent fool I was, and that I couldn't tune a bow. Well dang, guess all these years and records, championships would have been even better if I could tune? Go jump off a bridge you useless piece of human flesh. From now on please do not mention my name when it comes to these unforgiving, overpriced, pieces of junk. Have a nice day.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

*why don't we see many/any archers shooting Border limbs at world cup or international events?*

^^^ The answer lies in the posts above. Top archers have too many good choices available to them to have to ever worry about being dragged into the mud if they chose to make a switch. Frankly, they don't have time or the interest in waiting on custom or semi-custom products, or engaging in personal debates. I know of very few top Olympic style archers who are going to waste time arguing with anyone who tells them they simply don't understand their own bow well enough to tune it or appreciate it's shooting qualities. If a manufacturer will listen to their feedback, they will offer it, and in exchange, the manufacturer may have an opportunity to also explain to the archer why the product was designed the way it was. It has to be an equal give and take between expert user and expert manufacturer.

No manufacturer should ever be personally offended if an archer (well known or not) chooses another product. They should instead be asking themselves why those archers are choosing other products. 

John


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

The hex limbs do have an extreme curve to them and I'm curious as to what problem you were trying to resolve by creating such an unconventional design. Not being argumentative, just wondering.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Last_Bastion said:


> The hex limbs do have an extreme curve to them and I'm curious as to what problem you were trying to resolve by creating such an unconventional design. Not being argumentative, just wondering.


Hopefully Sid will post and correct any errors on my part, but AFIK the curvature of recurve limbs gives variable leverage to the limb through the draw (the leverage is essentially based on where the string is touching the limb), with the least leverage at BH and the most as soon as the string lifts off the limb and is pulled only by the nock groove. The variable leverage allows you to adjust the Draw Force Curve, Regular recurve limbs lift off the limb pretty early in the draw, whereas the radical recurve limbs have variable leverage over a longer length of draw, allowing border to really up the acceleration throughout the power stroke of the bow.


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

I think there must be some merit to the extreme curve design because several big name manufacturers are now trying to copy it. Not saying it will work better or worse, YMMV, but the design must have some merit.

Second, I think the real nut to crack here is the specific tuning requirements for string-walkers. You can't equate bow performance with sights or gapping, both of which consistently place their fingers with the nock. So when speaking of tuning for Field or Barebow, where the majority are string-walking, a different set of criteria are at stake. Would love to hear more, learn more about tuning Border limbs for string-walking specifically. (and any other limbs for that matter)

Edit: I'll add that my hex-5's on a DAS Master Gen2 riser are the sweetest shooting combo I've ever seen. (I've tried over a dozen other riser/limb combos). String-walking the Hex-5's on my Best Moon is definitely a more finicky beast to master. Work in progress...


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

It's almost like most manufacturers are shy with the recurve.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

I spent two years shooting border limbs and never reached a point where i felt i was getting the best from them.
I spent nearly two hours setting up my inno primes to get to where the borders left off.

I can't for the life of me see why anyone would spend the time tunning borders when you could spend the time shooting instead.

Incidently for balance both my hex 5 and inno primes delaminated.

One set lasted a week the others four years.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I spent two years shooting border limbs and never reached a point where i felt i was getting the best from them.
> I spent nearly two hours setting up my inno primes to get to where the borders left off.


For OR, this mirrors my experience exactly. Of course, I'm sure it was completely due to a shortcoming on my part.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> For OR, this mirrors my experience exactly. Of course, I'm sure it was completely due to a shortcoming on my part.


Well obviously you don't know how to tune a bow then do you [emoji6]


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bigjono said:


> Well obviously you don't know how to tune a bow then do you [emoji6]


As a result of my experience with Border Hex limbs, I learned that I in fact, don't.


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

I have a lot of respect for many of the people opining in this thread. I'm also neutral because I've owned and shot at least 4 different products from Border, but I'm currently working on tuning some Border limbs and it is slow progress (albeit only a month into it). 

I believe Border makes some of the best limbs on the planet and they aren't used by top archers as much mostly due to the sponsorship issues. If a top archer really was worried about having a backup set, I would think they'd just order identical limbs for backups before they start to compete with their Border limbs. so I'm sure the cost of the limbs and lack of sponsorship are the main factors. 

I also believe Sid has blood, sweat and tears invested in his product. He has setup many bows himself and knows they can be tuned for optimum performance. So when he hears someone having problems, his response is to help fix it, never considering he may come across sounding defensive. I believe Sid earnestly wants to help people enjoy the benefits of the limb technology, but a lesson learned here is that there are some very accomplished, knowledgeable archers who can provide really useful feedback on the limitations of that technology. I personally would like to hear and learn more from all sides.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

blue_ridge said:


> I think there must be some merit to the extreme curve design because several big name manufacturers are now trying to copy it.


Who are these "big name manufacturers"? My Quattro’s are pretty much the same conventional curve Hoyt has had for years. The W&W EX-Powers are if anything flatter than previous models. I don’t see it. Kaya KStorms have a little more curve but it is what I would call an aggressive conventional curve (on line with Win-Ex) and hardly the radical hooks that the Hex limbs exhibit.


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## Zombie_Feynman (Jun 27, 2014)

SBills said:


> Who are these "big name manufacturers"? My Quattro’s are pretty much the same conventional curve Hoyt has had for years. The W&W EX-Powers are if anything flatter than previous models. I don’t see it. Kaya KStorms have a little more curve but it is what I would call an aggressive conventional curve (on line with Win-Ex) and hardly the radical hooks that the Hex limbs exhibit.


Probably Uukha, altough I don't know if they would be considered a big name manufacturer. They certainly are big in France, but elsewhere they sell a lot less than W&W or Hoyt.


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

Yep, I was thinking Uukha. Maybe I'm wrong on this, if Uukha really is the only one and they're not big like the Korean/Chinese mfg's. (Is Hoyt made in USA or Asia?) Of course Morrison, Dryad and Sky are producing super curve type limbs and are very well thought of too. So all in all, we have Border leading the way, basically inventing the design and Dryad, Morrison, Sky and Uukha coming out with their own super curves. My main point was, the design has merit. There's no doubt they send an arrow faster, which flattens out gaps and crawls. 

Border limbs have won and placed in quite a few National FITA Field, World FITA Field Championships over recent years. So they obviously work for some people in Barebow. I don't think we need to waste a lot of time arguing if they have merit. I'd like to learn from those who have more experience tuning them for Barebow String walking so that I can improve my setup and decide if they are the right limbs for me.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Sky does not produce any radical curve limbs. Jim produces ILF longbow limbs and ILF (plus a few formula) recurve limbs off of the original Sky molds which are very conventional in curve.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

SBills said:


> Sky does not produce any radical curve limbs. Jim produces ILF longbow limbs and ILF (plus a few formula) recurve limbs off of the original Sky molds which are very conventional in curve.


No Morrison doesnt make any radical curve limbs, he sells ones that Sky makes for him.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

So Jim is making limbs for Morrison now? Hmm Ok I will change my statement to Sky does not sell any radical recurve limbs.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Dryad Archery makes a heavily recurved limb. I personally have never shot them though.


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

Interesting thread informative as well.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

blue_ridge said:


> Border limbs have won and placed in quite a few National FITA Field, World FITA Field Championships over recent years. So they obviously work for some people in Barebow. I don't think we need to waste a lot of time arguing if they have merit. I'd like to learn from those who have more experience tuning them for Barebow String walking so that I can improve my setup and decide if they are the right limbs for me.


You've got Ben Rogers and Alan Eagleton who've used the Hex limbs at the world level. Ben tunes his outside the recommended BH and Alan wasn't far behind from what I've heard. Matt Potter has also been successful with them, but he is also using a 72" bow with it's corresponding higher BH.

From an engineering standpoint brace-height doesn't really matter so long as the limb is at the correct shape to promote stability, that seems to be a viewpoint which isn't shared by the highest level barebow competitors.

Full disclosure: I can tune my hex limbs just great when shooting under the nock with very stiff arrows. I'm not saying they are terribly easy to shoot, but they will throw the bareshaft straight without much issue. Throw in a lighter arrow and stringwalking then the story changes.
No other limb throws a heavy arrow so well or accommodates variation in draw length as well, but those aren't really the characteristics I need from a competition limb.

Border conventional limbs are the best I've ever shot and I will be using them in the future until I find something produced by a mainstream company which can compete. The KStorm seems close.

-Grant


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks Grant. Yeah, I really want to order a set of Border CV's. Likely my next purchase.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Just a thought, the extra torsional stiffness built into the Hex limb to make this super curve work, could it be that this extra torsional stiffness is the reason why some Archers struggle to shoot/tune this limb?

Can a limb have too much torsional stiffness? does the same amount of stiffness in a Hex limb if put into a conventional limb, would it improve it?


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

How is this stiffness measured and compared?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Steve

I think in barebow more than any other archery discipline you need to utilize equipment that maximizes your strengths. What works great for me might be a poor fit for you - figure that out and move on if it doesn't work for you. 

I have a very long draw, a strong bow arm and the occasional funky release. The stiffness of the hex limbs work well for me. 

I set them up within the manufacturers remit and haven't had an issue tuning. 

I've got three sets of border limbs and have had nothing but great customer service. This is my personal experience which is all I came speak to. Other folks have different thoughts about it and I have ZERO interest in debating that. 

Matt


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I agree customer service and build quality are exceptional and about finding a setup that gives you the ability to reach your potential. I've had good results with both the Hex6 and the CV's, I felt the CV's were a better match for me as I've shot higher scores with them.

Compared to other limbs I've tried, the Borders seem to have a more aggressive shot reaction, this may hinder some Archers and likely depends on skill level and what you've become used to. Not so much a fault in the limb design but rather in terms of a shooting characteristic that you can or cannot take advantage of.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

It is a fact of life. Some people just don't know how to tune some bows.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> I've got three sets of border limbs and have had nothing but great customer service. This is my personal experience which is all I came speak to. Other folks have different thoughts about it and I have ZERO interest in debating that.
> 
> Matt


That would apply to me too.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Steve
> 
> I think in barebow more than any other archery discipline you need to utilize equipment that maximizes your strengths. What works great for me might be a poor fit for you - figure that out and move on if it doesn't work for you.
> 
> ...


Well said Matt. I'm in total agreement.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Regular limbs seem to work for everyone, some you like some you don't, but super curves work for some but not for others, there seems to no grey area. I've seen Matt shoot the lights out with Hex limbs, my buddy won the WBHC with Hex limbs, both love them and both speak highly of the company and I respect that, I just refuse to believe that world classes archers are at fault if they can't make the limbs tune or shoot well. It has to be something in the design that doesn't suit some people. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think they are too stiff to be forgiving enough for many guys but that's just my opinion.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

It's interesting to me how many people will join a debate, have their say and then declare they have no interest in debating it.

I'm not sure if I should aspire to have that level of confidence, or be grateful I lack that level of arrogance.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

toj said:


> It's interesting to me how many people will join a debate, have their say and then declare they have no interest in debating it.


I acknowledge your interest. Allow me to explain.

He didn't join a debate. He came here to offer his personal experience. What he didn't intend to do, was to lay doubts about other people's personal experiences.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It's interesting to me how many people will join a debate, have their say and then declare they have no interest in debating it.


I'm not sure if someone offers their personal experience, that it's the same as "joining a debate."


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

toj said:


> It's interesting to me how many people will join a debate, have their say and then declare they have no interest in debating it.
> 
> I'm not sure if I should aspire to have that level of confidence, or be grateful I lack that level of arrogance.


Matt is as far from arrogant as you can get. He just stated his experience with wishing to validate or refute that of others.


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