# Banned from the Gang



## Longbow91115 (May 4, 2009)

Don't let folks who throw stones in your path dissuade you from your goals. Nothing that is worth having comes easily. You're one of the least offensive people who posts on these threads. Focus on the good feedback that you receive, give heed to criticism but don't let it weigh you down. When I started my business as a farrier there were many who helped me along. There were those who dumped stones in my path. I forgave them but I never forgot them. I'm turning away business and all of those are now out of business. It's amazing how taking care of your business will take care of most of the problems. I've never regretted a day of hard work. It pays back ten fold. And when I feel stressed about one thing or another I come out harder and hit the problem head on. I find my head is usually harder and the problem gives away to better circumstances. 

Talk to someone who is good with marketing and never be embarrassed to be a shameless self promoter. You're the one who has to feed your family and look them in the eye for better or worse. Make contacts with purchasing people and think bigger than you'd ever hoped. It will come. The only person that can truly stop you from success is yourself.

Trad Gang is stagnant water. Everyone knows this except the administrators over there.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

You do good work.

You're conscientious.

Anybody who'd outright ban you deserves an eye roll.

Drop them and move on.


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

I go that same badge of HONOR.

Good place to stay away from. I was really offended when I got he axe, but after that I heard about the behind the scenes.

Bowmania


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

Your doing something that you love and are very passionate about. I envee you buddy! In the end though, that is something you and your family needs to decide on. Personally speaking though.. I think it's crazy talk!

As far as getting banned from TG. ..Well we all know all the cool people hang out here anyways . Don't let it get you down man. We know how passionate you are about your builds and wanting to share them with us. Personally, I enjoy reading about it. Sad they didn't see it that way though. Their loss imo.


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

Dude welcome to the club. I got banned on there for my “Beware The Trad Police” podcast episode and I’m not even the one who posted it! Hell, I’ve never posted ANYTHING on there! Someone on there heard it and a bunch of the crusty old crumudgeons got really butt hurt. Truth hurts I guess. 

As for the business side of things I understand the struggles. No one can tell you one way or another. You have a great following and put out great bows.

Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Coodster (Feb 3, 2006)

Kegan
Tg has been a click group for as long as I can remember, so don’t worry about it. 
TT I don’t think your banned and appreciate your postings. Apparently TT Isnt up to code on stuff or something along the lines. 
Do what makes you happy and you’ll be fine. 

Chad


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Terry Green has mellowed a bit but Rob is still out there a bit.
There for the longest time anything about TradTech was blocked by a filter. It seems that Tradgang objected to LAS selling crossbows and being an ad sponsor. Terr got into an argument with LAS and refused to allow TradTech to even be mentioned.


Kegan
You know John Wert and the folks from TT and LAS. Can you think of a more hospitable bunch?
I cant.


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## bobschuitema (Dec 9, 2011)

I requested specifically to be pulled from the membership rolls when they were asking for donations to do a server upgrade while playing it up like they are a charity. Then they changed my signature line to make me look like a jerk for trying to leave privately. Lots of good members over there. Terry and Rob can F off.


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## Arrow Dynamics (Sep 3, 2010)

I was banned also, Terry Green breaks his own rules every day and will kick you off if u don't agree with him. I was a sponsor and he even deleted all my post, and post lies about my company. TG won't be around for much longer with Green running the show, it used to be a good fourm.


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## mamba/ny (Mar 11, 2012)

Kegan sounds like you need a vacation in the hills at ETAR again.Work sometimes sucks but being your own boss is a plus,hang in there.
I left tradgang along time back.I had only mentioned my opinion that I didn't consider it hunting, hunting over a feeder in Texas.They pulled my post after letting me know how they felt.As my son always tells me-you can't fix stupid (LOL).


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## Arrow Dynamics (Sep 3, 2010)

Green is a crook also, I paid for a sponsorship and he kicked me off 2 month into it. I also sent him several dozen arrows to send to members for testing and he sold them.


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## beekeeper2 (Aug 19, 2016)

I’d seek out the more modern target/olympic type trad talk. Leave the flannel shirt nostalgia to themselves.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

kegan - 

Congratulations! 

Viper1 out.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks for the support, everyone! It really means a lot. Never intended for this to be about bashing TG, I just felt stupid for breaking the rules and wanted to apologize on the other sites I frequent. It was never my intention to advertise my stuff or rip anyone off. Just like to talk about archery. But I broke their rules and it's their site. I completely understand. 

I was contacted privately that Terry lost his father recently and hasn't been well, and am very sorry to hear that. It must be a very tough time for him.

I still love building and want to continue as long as I can. Just feels selfish or underserved to be so fortunate- especially if I'm doing it the "wrong way". Our bills are paid, we like what we do, and there's food in the fridge. Not everyone is that lucky and who am I to enjoy that kind of luck? Outside of doing remodelling for my uncle for a couple seasons, I've just been doing this stuff since I was a kid, making it up and just trying to do better each time. I don't have any formal training or tutelage, just trying to make it up as I go. Stuff like this makes me wonder.

Again, my deepest apologies if I've taken advantage and a sincere THANK YOU to everyone who's put up with me over the years!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> Welp, got the banned banner on TG when checking over the online forums. I think I broke the rules responding to a thread asking about my Native, not being a sponsor and all. Wasn't trying to sell anything, if that was the infraction, but rules are rules and the page says I won't be welcome back. Whoops.
> 
> Apologies to the fine folks here, TG, and TT if I've overstepped rules in such a manner, it was never my intent. I just like to talk about what I make and share photos when something turns out well and makes me smile, not sell anything. Thank you all for suffering a young fool trying to figure this life stuff out. I'd love to do more to support the archery community as a proper sponsor on all these avenues and customer of all these fine businesses, but we're not getting rich by any means. We live humbly and are grateful for what we have and are very blessed by these opportunities. We're always working to do better as we move forward.
> 
> ...


Welp... I'd not be too worried about it and further, mon, you don't need to be apologizing. People know who you are, and that is what matters.

Much Aloha...


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Don't sweat it Kegan, and welcome to *"Banned Camp."*


I was banned when I posted a review about a bow made by a company that Trad Gang wasn't extorting sponsorship fees from. I wrote Terry an email asking him why I was banned and he told me that he would get back with me with a complete explanation. 

That was 12 years ago and I'm still waiting.

He's really busy you know.

:wink:

KPC


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## Yooper-travler (Feb 28, 2011)

Kegan nothing to apologize for. If that’s the worst thing that happens to you this month- you’re blessed.


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## Steel Horse (Apr 11, 2010)

Kegan, you are a class act my friend! Might be, they see the error in their ways, and offer you an apology. Either way, listen to your heart,and follow your chosen path.When I run into you at etar,and listen to your joy of bowbuilding, and your friendships, just realize that the older folks secretly wish that all fathers had a son like you. YOU are a Good MAN, and no one can take that away. See you at ETAR.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I was banned for a day for challenging Terry on a comment. However it was in that period when his dad was sick and passing. I can understand being a tad out of sorts in a time such as that.
I also understand mamba/ny being banned as we here in Texas, and by the way over a dozen other states who allow baiting, dont really give a rip what you're closed minded opinion is. I grew up in NY and hunt there occasionally with my brother (as well as other states) and while the hunting is different, it is still hunting. 
As far as a click there, yes t is true and a detriment to how good the forum could be. But, I do like the lack of spammers getting in their 20 meaningless posts so they can peddle their wares. I enjoy not having shameless advertising like rembrant's on this forum. I enjoy it being about hunting and not having Olympics shooting flaunted as the end all be all of single string archery and being more focused on hunting and traditional field archery. 
Then again there is a click on here as well who think the Oly way is the best way and attempt to negate the knowledge or experience of anyone who is a hunting or 3D focused shooter. But I overlook their ignorance and asinine comments for the greater good of the overall experience here just like I do on TG. 
The bottom line is there are rules in everything and if you dont follow them consequences will be the result. 
However I don't think being banned from any forum is a condemnation or affirmation of any persons worth. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Your humility is commendable, but you are being too hard on yourself.



kegan said:


> I was an angry, obnoxious teen when I first started posting and I appreciate being allowed to hang around anyway.


I was around when you started posting, and I don't remember you ever coming across that way.


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## Ybuck (Apr 21, 2007)

well shame on them.


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## Tradchef (Oct 30, 2004)

I wouldn’t even worry about that at all man. You know you do good work and have a good following. That’s been a huge issue for me in the trad community. It’s their way or nothing. That’s why the divide continues to grow. It’s absurd. Frankly.......their loss. Stay on here doing your thing and get on rokslide and start promoting over there. Keep on keeping on dude!!!!!!!!!!


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## m2244 (Feb 11, 2009)

Trying to keep a site free from butt-holes is tough. Sometimes things like this happen. Good luck.


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## ceratops (May 17, 2017)

Kegan, I don't know much about TG, and know nothing about the politics over there. However, I always find your AT posts thoughtful, civilized, knowledgeable. Viper's one-word response may be best


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Their loss (not TT, that's a technical issues hitting all of us).

I like your work and I've supported (begged, bribed and shoved) you in some of those experiments. Anyone who has seen your progress knows you pour everything into your business and take the minimum back out.

Not like simply administering a forum: selling ad space and still expecting donations from the users (who are actually the product you sell to advertisers).


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## katman (Jun 5, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> kegan -
> 
> Congratulations!
> 
> Viper1 out.


Now there is a one word response that tells a lot.

Kegan, sorry this has happened to you. TG is clicky for sure. I hope you continue to pursue your passion, always enjoyed your input on the forums. Wish good things for you and family.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

You've always been a gentleman in my eye and you make a great product. It's their loss.


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## Stunchy (Aug 12, 2016)

I don’t know anything about the politics or motivations involved but I find that in most situations like this, nobody is intending to be unreasonable. I find that most rules are created out of reasonable intentions. Then people start rigidly enforcing those rules with a narrow focus and it leads to unreasonable results.

Kegan, I have always found your posts to be positive and informative. I have a hard time believing that a thinking person would decide that a traditional archery forum is better without you in it. 

Mistakes are a part of life. You’ve accepted and apologized for yours. Perhaps they will realize that banning you was also a mistake and come up with an accommodation. I hope so.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I deeply appreciate the kindness offered, everyone. I made a mistake, broke the rules, and am sorry for having done so. No apology is owed to me and there's no need for anyone to bend rules or make exceptions. I'm grateful for all that have offered guidance and support!


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## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> kegan -
> 
> Congratulations!
> 
> Viper1 out.


Carl Jung used to say this to people who had been fired. For Jung, it meant something wonderful was about to happen. As always, Viper nailed it. 

I got banned when I mentioned the similarity between finger shooting a compound and a recurve. 

Kegan - Please keep posting. Please keep building.


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

And the winner is....................................kegan!!!!!!!!!!


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## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> kegan -
> 
> Congratulations!
> 
> Viper1 out.


Lol, best reply.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

GCook said:


> I was banned for a day for challenging Terry on a comment. However it was in that period when his dad was sick and passing. I can understand being a tad out of sorts in a time such as that.
> I also understand mamba/ny being banned as we here in Texas, and by the way over a dozen other states who allow baiting, dont really give a rip what you're closed minded opinion is. I grew up in NY and hunt there occasionally with my brother (as well as other states) and while the hunting is different, it is still hunting.
> As far as a click there, yes t is true and a detriment to how good the forum could be. But, I do like the lack of spammers getting in their 20 meaningless posts so they can peddle their wares. I enjoy not having shameless advertising like rembrant's on this forum. I enjoy it being about hunting and not having Olympics shooting flaunted as the end all be all of single string archery and being more focused on hunting and traditional field archery.
> Then again there is a click on here as well who think the Oly way is the best way and attempt to negate the knowledge or experience of anyone who is a hunting or 3D focused shooter. But I overlook their ignorance and asinine comments for the greater good of the overall experience here just like I do on TG.
> ...


not that I know anything about spelling, but since I got schooled on this, you may as well benefit my inappropriate spell checker as well... click is a brief sharp sound, like the adjustment on a scope for example... Klick, in the military organization, is a kilometer... and for us that are frozen out of worthy organizations... because we are not in their "narrow exclusive circle: otherwise known as a *clique*, and truth be known some are known as cliches, operating in cliques, some many klicks away from intellectual planes that we operate from... :laugh:


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Yeah you're correct. Glad my school teacher wife won't read this.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

GCook said:


> Yeah you're correct. Glad my school teacher wife won't read this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Well you know... the real problem is that I understood you perfectly... :laugh:


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## Stepping wolf (May 5, 2019)

LOL!!!!
Apparently it is not an exclusive club, my farther was banned for using his actual name, Grimwald Reaper. Most would just call him Grim, so he signed on as Grim Reaper. After 2 posts, someone took offense and he was banned.


Stepping wolf


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

I get messages every time I post on TT about needing to be a sponsor and also someone reported one of my sale threads about a year ago and I got the sponsor pm so I just don’t post much on those sites .
They should feel lucky to have you buddy


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

My dear friend 

I know I’ve been mia of late but I hate to see you down 

You are the best of what this sport is in every way 

From the bows you craft to the way you conduct your business 

Also I’ll lay down the money to bet you could swab the deck when it comes to shooting of anyone on there 

Never let a bunch of jerks like the kind that make decisions on TG make you doubt anything about yourself 

As for getting banned ........ I got banned years ago ....the management are jerk offs 

I’ll reach out buddy


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Normally, you might look at this as a badge of honor. Recognizing that you are in the business, though, means it takes away an avenue to get your message out. However, for TragGang, it looks like that avenue is more of a cul-de-sac, or a dead end street, or the road that leads to the hazardous waste dump.


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## beekeeper2 (Aug 19, 2016)

It seems an outsider usually wins their coveted Howard Hill tournament in Alabama most years.

I personally know 2. The first one trained the 2nd. He straightened me out too. He’d be banned in 1 hour from TG.


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## monkeyball (Jan 31, 2008)

Kegan,
No one likes getting the shove, especially when you don't really understand why. TG use to be my big time hangout place. Made some good friends over there, but as time went on I could see the very fine line you had to walk if you wanted to keep your "admit one" ticket. 

I am not a trouble maker, but also do not play those games. Some folks got away with everything and the rest have to make sure your t's are crossed and your i's dotted, so to speak. I left and have not looked back. You should do the same, it is definitely there loss.

Your bows are shooters. My one buddy Homey88 has a few, which I have shot, and they work.......and you keep up the good work. 


Good Shooting->->->->Craig


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## Brad Lehmann (Sep 4, 2010)

I left when I realized the sort of people that ran that place.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

You are too hard on yourself. You have always come across straight, not based on what others might think about a post and not for some immediate benefit but on personal principles. 

Breaking rules is breaking rules but I will say it is also pretty rare to have character these days.


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## Tim Delf (Jul 6, 2016)

Just keep building great bows. Everything else will take care of itself.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Kegan,
Yeah...their loss. If a class act like yourself isn't good enough for them...then i'm out too.

BTW, I sent you a PM.


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## Ron Nepini (Jan 29, 2003)

Bunch of Dorks!


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## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

Screw them We love you here.


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## Runningbuck (Mar 11, 2009)

TG adds a whole new meaning to the word CENSORSHIP. They did you a favor...…...


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## Roadweasel (Mar 17, 2006)

OK, I'm out of the loop. What is TT & TG? Some kind of traditional archery site or something?


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## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

Roadweasel said:


> OK, I'm out of the loop. What is TT & TG? Some kind of traditional archery site or something?


Tradalk and Tradgang, two other trad forums.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

You're in good company Kegan.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Roadweasel said:


> OK, I'm out of the loop. What is TT & TG? Some kind of traditional archery site or something?


Tradgang.com

TradTalk.com


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## Smokedinpa (Mar 1, 2015)

Any site that bans you or erases your posts after you give your thoughts in a reasonable manner is doing you a favor. Dont sweat it. You are a good guys from the posts of yours I’ve read.


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## Roadweasel (Mar 17, 2006)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Tradgang.com
> 
> TradTalk.com





jkm97 said:


> Tradalk and Tradgang, two other trad forums.


Thanks


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## Fall Gray (Jun 18, 2003)

Happens to the best of us!! I got banned as well for speaking truthfully about Asbell’s and Ron LaClair and quoting facts. Seems facts and data have no place their either?? 

Kegan - Any dealings with you have always been above professional and your replies extremely prompt!! Take it from someone who has been in a career for 30+ years that I have zero passion for, simply because the money is decent........As the quote goes, “Do something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life!”

I wish I was only as blessed as you are!!

Mark


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Getting banned from TG is not all bad. I am sure you are disappointed for breaking their rules, but mistakes happen. It is, however, a loss to their membership. They will not have the benefit of your insights and wealth of knowledge. I used to visit that site daily and really developed some good friendships and acquaintances within their membership. I have also leaned a lot from many of their members as well.


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## BigJohnx13 (Sep 8, 2013)

What is the purpose of getting banned from a forum? If you want to stay you register a new user and password and keep on posting with your new profile. Got banned on another site making a political joke. I write a letter to the owner and asked him if my post offend only the moderator or everyone in the world. I ask him also what does it help I get banned and will create in new user in one minute. He lifted the ban.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

BigJohnx13 said:


> What is the purpose of getting banned from a forum? If you want to stay you register a new user and password and keep on posting with your new profile. Got banned on another site making a political joke. I write a letter to the owner and asked him if my post offend only the moderator or everyone in the world. I ask him also what does it help I get banned and will create in new user in one minute. He lifted the ban.


Some forums are smart enough to know you IP address and will not allow you to do that. 
Also with that attitude and approach I can see why you were banned.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

kegan said:


> Welp, got the banned banner on TG when checking over the online forums. I think I broke the rules responding to a thread asking about my Native, not being a sponsor and all. Wasn't trying to sell anything, if that was the infraction, but rules are rules and the page says I won't be welcome back. Whoops.
> 
> Apologies to the fine folks here, TG, and TT if I've overstepped rules in such a manner, it was never my intent. I just like to talk about what I make and share photos when something turns out well and makes me smile, not sell anything. Thank you all for suffering a young fool trying to figure this life stuff out. I'd love to do more to support the archery community as a proper sponsor on all these avenues and customer of all these fine businesses, but we're not getting rich by any means. We live humbly and are grateful for what we have and are very blessed by these opportunities. We're always working to do better as we move forward.
> 
> ...


keep your head up man! you truly have integrity to compose your business as you do, as well as compose yourself the way you do. TG is the loser here, lost a great member over lack of communication.

I was actually going to check TG out, for another resource as well as a group of like minded folks.... now there is no way.... stuff like that irritates the heck out of me, I have never seen you plug your business above another, even when it deserves it.

I hope you keep doing what you're doing, you are a rare business man, and it's in a refreshing way


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

ceratops said:


> Kegan, I don't know much about TG, and know nothing about the politics over there. However, I always find your AT posts thoughtful, civilized, knowledgeable. Viper's one-word response may be best


I'm a serious archer but a very casual follower of different archery boards - my join date and posting numbers are a clue - I get the impression that Trad Gang is trying to keep alive an archery world that probably ended 40-50 years ago . It doesn't take much to make them feel threatened . Their favored bowyers produce nice bows but basically your paying for fancy woodwork . Kegan's preference for function and performance over artwork would probably not make him very popular there.


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## bsfer (Feb 27, 2019)

Well isn't this PRECIOUS! The very people you want to impress have popped you on the nose. Sounds like they are a touchy group and you are feeling kinda low. Well tough, it happens all the time in all walks of life. Maybe this will be the catalyst to wake you up. Maybe you should consider getting another job AND keep on making great bows AND get better at it. Dont just get any job. Find a job that intrigues you and you can grow into even if you have to move. And make bows at night or weekends. Be great! Donald Trump stays up until 2:00 AM regularly and he is 70. You can work until 10:00 if you love it. Put a plan together with the input of your wife and trusted friends and get started. I love you brother and I feel bad for the way you were treated but you can make lemonade.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

bsfer said:


> Well isn't this PRECIOUS! The very people you want to impress have popped you on the nose. Sounds like they are a touchy group and you are feeling kinda low. Well tough, it happens all the time in all walks of life. Maybe this will be the catalyst to wake you up. Maybe you should consider getting another job AND keep on making great bows AND get better at it. Dont just get any job. Find a job that intrigues you and you can grow into even if you have to move. And make bows at night or weekends. Be great! Donald Trump stays up until 2:00 AM regularly and he is 70. You can work until 10:00 if you love it. Put a plan together with the input of your wife and trusted friends and get started. I love you brother and I feel bad for the way you were treated but you can make lemonade.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

p508 said:


> I'm a serious archer but a very casual follower of different archery boards - my join date and posting numbers are a clue - I get the impression that Trad Gang is trying to keep alive an archery world that probably ended 40-50 years ago . It doesn't take much to make them feel threatened . Their favored bowyers produce nice bows but basically your paying for fancy woodwork . Kegan's preference for function and performance over artwork would probably not make him very popular there.


Not that I disagree on the archaic attitudes of some of the key principle players over on TG but I'm not sure which bowyers you are referring to? Many bowyers have a committed group of followers or are popular in a region only to be unknown elsewhere. So please do tell which bowyers over on TG make inferior bows so I can avoid them in the future.
Is it Big Jim? Black Widow? Perhaps Primaltech? 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## gtj96 (Sep 28, 2014)

Kegan, you're a great person, with a passion for archery, and you only want to see it grow as a sport. Don't apologize for their ignorance. It's their loss.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

We're glad your here...:dancing:


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## screamin6x6 (Jun 11, 2006)

I quit visiting there years ago. Way too much, "My way or no way", for me.


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## p508 (Mar 20, 2012)

GCook said:


> Not that I disagree on the archaic attitudes of some of the key principle players over on TG but I'm not sure which bowyers you are referring to? Many bowyers have a committed group of followers or are popular in a region only to be unknown elsewhere. So please do tell which bowyers over on TG make inferior bows so I can avoid them in the future.
> Is it Big Jim? Black Widow? Perhaps Primaltech?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I didn't say they make inferior bows -only that you pay a premium for fancy woodwork - Maybe I should have rephrased the sentence to say your paying extra for the fancy wood- then you wouldn't be so quick to feel threatened.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

You pay for it only if you want it. Many like the fancy woods. Personally I like a camouflage bow.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

It's very obvious Mr. Keagan has a following here. And that's great. Apparently here there are no rules regarding advertising as it happens in this forum regularly. On TG, as well as many other forums you must pay a sponsorship to peddle your wares. He didn't and got the boot for it. 
Y'all act like they did something wrong when they enforced the policy. He doesn't seem to upset by it so why y'all are I don't get. I know bowyers who advertise there that build nice bows. I can't see why you felt the need to take a shot at the product of those other bowyers just to support Keagan. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Kegan, I wish you the best and I know how tough it is to make a living with this sport.....Fortunately, I am retired and have a fairly good retirement but I spend more for supplies than I sell.....For me, its just a hobby but I feel for you trying to keep above water....Your bows look super to me and most everybody who has one of your bows love them.....

Dave


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