# Should Archery have different gender divisions?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes. I'm not even sure why this is a question honestly Larry.

Men shoot bows that are routinely 10# heavier than the women. It's not a fair contest and it's not the women's fault. We're not driving cars here, we're pulling thousands of pounds of weight in a few hour period.

I shoot a 47# bow that casts a 380 grain arrow over 200 fps. That means I don't have to be nearly the archer that the average woman is, to score better at 70M in any kind of wind at all. Even indoors, I have a much better opportunity for a steady aim and a clean release than they do, because of the mass weight of my bow, and the draw weight. It's not level ground.


----------



## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

Boys against girls is always fun. It would be interesting to see this at least as an exhibition type of thing. A Billy Jean vs Bobby Riggs kind of thing.


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

No there shouldn't. I see no reason why men would have any advantage and this is proven by ikssevens post in another thread where he stated that women often out score men. It demeaning to women to say they couldn't compete with men when they can not only compete but win against men. Men may benefit from typically longer draw lengths but women benefit from a lower C of G which helps aim. The difference between a woman and a man is comparable to the difference between one man and another slightly less well built man.

Limbwalker - We started this thread because YOU TOLD us to. You objected to it being discussed in your thread (also on gender equality in archery) so now we start a thread as you directed and you troll about why it was posted?! what a joke!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Limbwalker - We started this thread because YOU TOLD us to. You objected to it being discussed in your thread (also on gender equality in archery) so now we start a thread as you directed and you troll about why it was posted?! what a joke!


I guess accusing someone of "trolling" is the new way of complaining that someone disagreed with you on the internet. 



> > I see no reason why men would have any advantage


I gave you a list of reasons. If you can't understand those, you must not shoot much, or coach women who do.


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

lksseven said:


> Many times in world level elimination matches, if wind is not a factor, women will often outshoot the men. Should the men (or women) continue to benefit from two divisions?
> 
> Longlost, wind favors many of the men due to some factors of physics - men usually enjoy longer draw length and more draw weight and heavier arrows and more arrow speed, thus the arrow is flying faster (in the wind less time) and flatter and less pushed by the wind, increasing the margin of error that still allows a bullseye strike.
> 
> ...


An Austin JOAD/UT had a couple outdoor target tournaments this spring where the knockout round was unisex:

http://www.atxshootoff.com/

I thought it was a cool idea, diverse formats to me are nice.

I don't see it as sexist to have the different divisions. What I see as more sexist is differential treatment. The coaching thing. IBO and some other organizations have subtlely sexist rule differences. Women and children have a draw weight limit lower than men, for example.


----------



## Shooterdad (Apr 30, 2014)

My experience is solely with JOAD archers so take that for what it's worth. I have no problem with it either way. But I see no problem with how it is now. If you want my 11 year old daughter to spank your son then by all means go for it. She pulls more weight than most all of the boys at this point but at 5' 4" she doesn't really have this benefit of the lower C of G. 

I guess I just don't see the benefit of having them compete against each other. What does that really tell you anyway? And it would lower the number of female archers that choose to join the sport. We don't combine them in boxing or running or skiing or swimming or basketball or anything else really, so I don't know how that would really benefit the sport. Unless you are just looking for an easier opponent. And you might be surprised by that one.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Well, of course Limbwalker is right - it's not level ground, so different divisions is completely justified. Just like tennis. I posted the question as a tongue-in-cheek conversation starter mostly about wind, and that in many cases the women truly do have higher skill levels laboring under some disadvantages of physics. 

What would be fun, too, though, would be to have some golf matches between men and women pro golfers where the men used golfballs that had been deadened to an extent that made the men and women equal in distance attained with the different clubs. Then it would be more purely a matter of skill only.

So, here's a followup question - should girls be allowed to shoot in the boys division if the girl wants to do so? And if not, how long before that lawsuit happens?


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I guess accusing someone of "trolling" is the new way of complaining that someone disagreed with you on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> I gave you a list of reasons. If you can't understand those, you must not shoot much, or coach women who do.



You guess wrong - my comment about trolling was in reference to you questioning why it was even posted when you were the one who said start a thread on it - simple enough for you?
As for your list of reasons, I don't see them as valid in defence of separate gender categories in archery - AGE presents much more of a discrepancy between archers than gender ever could but we don't have categories for say, over 30s. There is no level playing field because no two archers are identical and each of us have our own strengths and weaknesses. There is no huge advantage for women or men since according to OP, women have an advantage over men in terms of skill (cognitive and physical advantage) and men have a physical advantage with drawing the bow.


----------



## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

lksseven said:


> So, here's a followup question - should girls be allowed to shoot in the boys division if the girl wants to do so? And if not, how long before that lawsuit happens?


My first reaction is to say "Absolutely". On second thought I'd see there being a situation of the womens' division being looked down on because people would be thinking, "yeah she's good, but only because she's not shooting in the mens' devision."

This is a tough question. Longlost, I like the comparison you made with shooting against a "slightly less well-built man"


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> Well, of course Limbwalker is right - it's not level ground, so different divisions is completely justified. Just like tennis. I posted the question as a tongue-in-cheek conversation starter mostly about wind, and that in many cases the women truly do have higher skill levels laboring under some disadvantages of physics.
> 
> What would be fun, too, though, would be to have some golf matches between men and women pro golfers where the men used golfballs that had been deadened to an extent that made the men and women equal in distance attained with the different clubs. Then it would be more purely a matter of skill only.
> 
> So, here's a followup question - should girls be allowed to shoot in the boys division if the girl wants to do so? And if not, how long before that lawsuit happens?


The difference over tennis, though, is you could have bow weight classes, which would eliminate the higher draw weight advantage. However, that would be a pain to judge, especially since only OTF weight would would really be fair.


----------



## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't think it'd be too hard to judge. Just do it like they do with compound bow speeds. Make sure the tournament director has a bow-scale with them. Then, if anyone feels someone is outside of their weight class, measure it!


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Last_Bastion said:


> I don't think it'd be too hard to judge. Just do it like they do with compound bow speeds. Make sure the tournament director has a bow-scale with them. Then, if anyone feels someone is outside of their weight class, measure it!


If measuring OTF, though, how do you insure the use full DL? With WA Recurve I suppose you could make them draw through the clicker... However, as people noted in the scale thread, torquing the scale can easily drop 5 pounds, and with practice on a specific scale model, the amount dropped can be consistent. Only a drawing board really with a certified scale would really insure accuracy, but how would you set the DL? :dontknow: Again, it would be a pain - but they do it for flight archery, based on arrow length.


----------



## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

And then while you're at it, draw length is an advantage too so every has to shoot at 28"-- kidding of course


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

interesting question but moot and academic at this point....

.....there will always be a disparity between men and women in sports where there is a physical advantage for one gender no matter how minimal....

informal and exhibition matches between men and women have been held in golf, tennis, shooting, and other sports i may not be aware off and as the number of matches increase the men invariably win more than the women...

AFAIK it's only in equestrian that there is no gender division to date and i personally think there should be as a stronger person should be able to control a horse better than a weaker but then i don't ride horses so i could be wrong there..

to cut a long story short....IF they keep all things equal the answer is NO...


----------



## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

. at 20 yards it's probably a fair fight, but outdoors, then the FPS becomes a major factor unless one is at the elite level (world class)


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

Some interesting points I'm pleased to see most don't reject the idea out of hand. I firmly believe that the disparity between a 20 year old man and a 45 year old man would be greater than between a female archer and a male archer. Maybe true equality is possible
great thread iksseven


----------



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

What about mixed team matches? Do those not count? I bet a statistician could also crunch some numbers from the mixed team rounds and see if there is a statistical difference.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

StarDog said:


> . at 20 yards it's probably a fair fight, but outdoors, then the FPS becomes a major factor unless one is at the elite level (world class)


This came up in another thread a while ago, and the women archers were adamant that men's higher poundages were an advantage inddors since lower poundage bows are fussier.


----------



## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

1. Look at the riser/ limbs combination to determine a standard bow weight at 28" draw
2. Use 28" draw length as standard, estimate arrow length at the clicker, use that as a standard arrow length.
3. If arrows are longer than the standard length above, add 1 lb per inch over the standard to come up with calculated draw weight.
4. Group archers (regardless of sex) by their calculated draw weight. For example, below 30 # , below 40#, below 50# and above 50 pound etc.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rambo-yambo said:


> 1. Look at the riser/ limbs combination to determine a standard bow weight at 28" draw
> 2. Use 28" draw length as standard, estimate arrow length at the clicker, use that as a standard arrow length.
> 3. If arrows are longer than the standard length above, add 1 lb per inch over the standard to come up with calculated draw weight.
> 4. Group archers (regardless of sex) by their calculated draw weight. For example, below 30 # , below 40#, below 50# and above 50 pound etc.


Well it's an interesting idea, but I'd think there's no way that relying on the printed limb ratings would be sufficiently accurate method for judging draw weight for competitions, especially given the various geometries of riser.


----------



## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

Well, bringing it back to the comparison of compound and arrow speed. There is an allowance of 6fps IIRC to account for measuring methods and equipment. So, why not do the same thing here? Measure the bow through the clicker and allow for 2lb over to account for small variations.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Last_Bastion said:


> Well, bringing it back to the comparison of compound and arrow speed. There is an allowance of 6fps IIRC to account for measuring methods and equipment. So, why not do the same thing here? Measure the bow through the clicker and allow for 2lb over to account for small variations.


Or you could just measure kinetic energy, take a chrono of the bow through the clicker and grain weigh the arrows. But, that would be harder for competitors to manage.


----------



## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Warbow said:


> Well it's an interesting idea, but I'd think there's no way that relying on the printed limb ratings would be sufficiently accurate method for judging draw weight for competitions, especially given the various geometries of riser.


You can always use better equipment, then it has nothing to do with skill. I don't think the difference with better equipment can be that huge. Unless your bow combination is at the top of that group, should not make too much of a difference. 

Men being men (macho), I don't think they want to lower down their weight to compete at a lower class anyway. 

You can have someone testing all limbs at 28" and tabulate it and use it as a standard drawing weight just in case some manufacturers rate their limbs at max while other rate their at nominal.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

StarDog said:


> . at 20 yards it's probably a fair fight, but outdoors, then the FPS becomes a major factor unless one is at the elite level (world class)


I don't know about that. a good elbow and good shoulder ago I shot 47+ pounds indoor. when I dropped weight, I never could get the same indoor scores. a heavier bow is more forgiving of a less than perfect release. I believe Magnus Peterson told me at US Nationals he had won the world indoor shooting around 54 pounds for that reason


----------



## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

First off I am not advocating that men and women compete together. I like the separation, it gives us more people to watch and track their careers.

But with that said, archery is a skill sport. Weight does increase the speed. But so what. Every arrow has a ballistic trajectory. Each archer must learn the trajectories of their arrows. If they release the arrow the same every time, the trajectory will be the same every time. If the form and release is the same all the time, the arrows will impact the same place every time. If the trajectory is flatter or more arcing it doesn't matter if it is always the same. Adjust the sight accordingly.

If one wants to argue about speed and wind, again, that is a straw man argument. We all have to learn how to estimate the wind and compensate for it. If the arrow speed is a little slower, one learns how to comp for it. Regardless of sex or strength, everyone must learn how to deal with it. Those who are better at it, score better.

If a man can get an arrow in the 10 ring on the 1st arrow, he is capable of doing it 71 more times. If a woman can get an arrow in the 10 ring, she is capable of doing it 71 more times. It is the individual's ability to repeat the same feat over and over and over again. Men do not have any inherent advantage over women in the ability to repeat a function over and over again.

Archery is a skill sport. And women are just as skilled at it as men are.

Even with that, I still like the two separations. Let the women compete against the women, and the men against the men, and I will still encourage and root for each one with the same enthusiasm.

Pete


----------



## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

So at indoor National the answer is NO???

What about questioning what rules would need to be change to "Level" the playing field??

How about a poundage limit on the archers fingers per inch of draw length?

Regards,

Tom


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i agree they should be separate but not because of scores. I think they should be separate to give another division of medals. 


As far as shooting, i don't think the higher poundage is an advantage. Longer arrow, heavier arrow, all balances out. 

Here is the recent World Championship scores men and women. 

using the score of 650 as a benchmark

21 men shot 650 or higher, 19 women shot 650 or higher. And the women's division had the highest score by a point. 

View attachment 2559266


View attachment 2559282



highest men score 336. Highest women's score 338 and another woman shot 336. So two women had the top score compared to only one mens archer. Nespoli's 60+ poundage may have been an advantage over the men, but he lost to a woman. 

Korean mens team took first in ranking with a 1968, the Korean women's team took first in ranking with a 1991 ! Chinese Taipei women shot a 1978 beating the Korean men's team by 10 points. 


and i have to say i HATE the World archery interface to get scores and brackets and such. All the tiny pictures that you can't click, Scores arnt even easy to find on the webpage. http://worldarchery.org/competition/14215/copenhagen-2015-world-archery-championships

Why they don't use Ianseo i haven't a clue. Its to easy to follow everything there. 


Chris


----------



## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I'm thinking if you create division based on anything other than gender and age, you're going to have sandbagging.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Matt Z said:


> I'm thinking if you create division based on anything other than gender and age, you're going to have sandbagging.


You mean cheating, but we already have FITA discipline based on measured draw weight, flight archery. So it can be done, logistically speaking at the national and international level.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> First off I am not advocating that men and women compete together. I like the separation, it gives us more people to watch and track their careers.
> 
> But with that said, archery is a skill sport. Weight does increase the speed. But so what. Every arrow has a ballistic trajectory. Each archer must learn the trajectories of their arrows. If they release the arrow the same every time, the trajectory will be the same every time. If the form and release is the same all the time, the arrows will impact the same place every time. If the trajectory is flatter or more arcing it doesn't matter if it is always the same. Adjust the sight accordingly.
> 
> ...


Pete, try arguing how a "slower, lighter bullet in the wind doesn't matter" to a Marine sniper. I'll make popcorn.

Or, try moon dropping arrows into the bullseye with a rainbow arc. A tiny deviation in angle has a much bigger effect on the accuracy of an arrow that is traveling 18feet above the ground at its arc apogee versus an arrow that travels 8feet above the ground at its arc apogee.

Or, consider this - a sideways, gusting 18mph wind. Archer A, shooting 54lb bow, has to aim off in the middle of the nine ring. Archer B, shooting 35lb bow, has to aim off in the middle of the 6 ring to allow for wind drift. They both shoot 72 perfect shots/releases today, the arrows all going directly to their respective aiming points. They both guess right on the wind 68 times and each score 68 tens. The other four times they both shoot perfect shots but judge the wind wrong in exactly the same way - the wind dying off just as they release. So Archer A gets four 9's, and Archer B gets four 6's. For the day, Archer A scores 12 points higher, even though the two archers made 72 identical shots. 

My belief is that, pound for pound, the women - in order to shoot equivalent scores at the same distance - have to have higher shot skills to compensate for the disadvantage of their physics.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> Pete, try arguing how a "slower, lighter bullet in the wind doesn't matter" to a Marine sniper. I'll make popcorn.
> 
> Or, try moon dropping arrows into the bullseye with a rainbow arc. A tiny deviation in angle has a much bigger effect on the accuracy of an arrow that is traveling 18feet above the ground at its arc apogee versus an arrow that travels 8feet above the ground at its arc apogee.
> 
> ...


Everything you were saying also applies to weaker men. So again this isn't about men vs women so much as it is about stronger people higher poundage bows. Something that could be solved, albeit with some degree of inconvenience, by weight class divisions rather than gender divisions. Give weaker men a chance - don't makes them go compound :wink: :-D


----------



## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Longlost said:


> Some interesting points I'm pleased to see most don't reject the idea out of hand. I firmly believe that the disparity between a 20 year old man and a 45 year old man would be greater than between a female archer and a male archer. Maybe true equality is possible
> great thread iksseven


Following that rabbit down the hole, there's a 20 year gap between Lanola Pritchard and Khatuna Lorig, both on our current USA team. Both amazing shooters. Where's your money? Mine's on experience.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Longlost said:


> You guess wrong - my comment about trolling was in reference to you questioning why it was even posted when you were the one who said start a thread on it - simple enough for you?
> As for your list of reasons, I don't see them as valid in defence of separate gender categories in archery - AGE presents much more of a discrepancy between archers than gender ever could but we don't have categories for say, over 30s. There is no level playing field because no two archers are identical and each of us have our own strengths and weaknesses. There is no huge advantage for women or men since according to OP, women have an advantage over men in terms of skill (cognitive and physical advantage) and men have a physical advantage with drawing the bow.


Your reading comprehension could use some work. I stated that I wasn't sure why this was a question, not why this thread was started. If you can't understand the difference, you should ask for a refund from your college English professor, assuming you attended college.

As for the reasons I offered, they are born from personal experience as an Olympic archer, and one who has coached many young women, including several who have made our Jr USAT squad and world teams. If you have more experience than that, feel free to lay it on us.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Everything you were saying also applies to weaker men


That's easy to address. Just average the draw weight of the men shooting at the WC or Olympics vs. the women and see what you get.


----------



## MIshooter (Sep 19, 2014)

Another follow-up question if this hypothetical happened and they got rid of gender separation then do women start shooting 90 70 50 30 at the few fita events that still happen here or would men move down to 70 60 50 30?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, draw weight isn't an issue apparently, so let the women shoot 90 too. Let's see how long that lasts. LOL.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> That's easy to address. Just average the draw weight of the men shooting at the WC or Olympics vs. the women and see what you get.


I'm just thinking outloud. As someone who might know, what would you say the difference is between team averages - and would the same hold for different countries. I'm guessing that most women aren't shooting the 51pounds Khatuna is, but I really don't know.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

MIshooter said:


> Another follow-up question if this hypothetical happened and they got rid of gender separation then do women start shooting 90 70 50 30 at the few fita events that still happen here or would men move down to 70 60 50 30?


Or, following the concept of bow weight divisions, the lower draw weights would shoot the shorter distances.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Warbow said:


> Everything you were saying also applies to weaker men. So again this isn't about men vs women so much as it is about stronger people higher poundage bows. Something that could be solved, albeit with some degree of inconvenience, by weight class divisions rather than gender divisions. Give weaker men a chance - don't makes them go compound :wink: :-D


LOL. I get what you're saying. But are there any weaker men shooting 35-38lb bows who are scoring similar to the upper level of women shooting those same bow weights?


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> LOL. I get what you're saying. But are there any weaker men shooting 35-38lb bows who are scoring similar to the upper level of women shooting those same bow weights?


Dunno, but I don't think men are encouraged to be internationally competitive if they can only shot 35-38 pounds, so I don't know if that is really a good measure of potential.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I'm just thinking outloud. As someone who might know, what would you say the difference is between team averages - and would the same hold for different countries. I'm guessing that most women aren't shooting the 51pounds Khatuna is, but I really don't know.


Khatuna isn't shooting 51 lbs. And even if she was, she's an outlier, just like Nespoli is for the men.

Avg. for the men is going to be about 47# and for women will be about 40#. That's a significant difference.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Warbow said:


> Dunno, but I don't think men are encouraged to be internationally competitive if they can only shot 35-38 pounds, so I don't know if that is really a good measure of potential.


What does encouragement have to do with it? As John pointed out, the team-making scores are being shot by poundages well north of 45lb for the men. A friend of mine with four decades of experience in national and international shooting says that at the elite level, a pretty good predictor (not foolproof of course) of the men's leader board is to just look at where archers' bowsight settings are. The physically higher up the setting, the higher the score will likely be. It's the old bar fight maxim - a good big man will beat a good little man.


----------



## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

She mentions the 51lb in the espn body shoot video.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rharper said:


> She mentions the 51lb in the espn body shoot video.


I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of how often the media gets the facts right, and how often archers like her change their draw weight from training to competition bows.


----------



## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Looking from a local point of view (3d/local club shoot/state organization tournament ), not just top end fita, combing classes would discourage ladies participation. Ideally it would be fine, but there is so much man v woman,it's almost programmed in. We wouldn't have a chance to say they could hang with the men. Not saying all but we would miss out on a lot of new shooters.


----------



## jwit76 (May 23, 2015)

So I was contemplating the physics of this today, an arrow in flight encounters much adversity, from windage, to gravity, to drag, lateral forces from the bow, etc. A higher poundage bow will be more forgiving in that it allows the arrow to minimize flight time and thus exposure to shooter error and/or elemental challenges....so does this mean an archer pulling 35# but scoring the same or better than a 50# shooter, posseses superior skills? Hmmmm.


----------



## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

lksseven said:


> Pete, try arguing how a "slower, lighter bullet in the wind doesn't matter" to a Marine sniper. I'll make popcorn.
> 
> Or, try moon dropping arrows into the bullseye with a rainbow arc. A tiny deviation in angle has a much bigger effect on the accuracy of an arrow that is traveling 18feet above the ground at its arc apogee versus an arrow that travels 8feet above the ground at its arc apogee.
> 
> ...


I agree with the fact that speed has a distinct advantage when it comes to windage control. That is what I say compounders at 50m has a big advantage in scoring potential than a recurve at 70m.

I contend that one still needs to know how to shoot their equipment in what ever environment of the day.

My best 60 yard distance for a score in a 900 round was 256 that I did over 10 years ago with a 34# bow in heavy wind. There was a barn way off in the distance to the left of the target. The wind was perfect and steady. I aimed at one of the windows on the barn, and the wind brought the arrow into the red/gold shot after shot. Okay, I was lucky, the wind was steady and just happened to be right for conditions, but I still had to recognize it and comp for it. As for arrow speed, I agree and switched to ACC arrows and moved up to a 50# bow, and shot that for 10 years and haven't come close to that score. This year I dropped to 45# and almost tied it in perfect weather and crushed my 50 and 40 yard distances.

Yes, speed matters. But the archer still needs to know their equipment. A heavier bow won't make an archer better.

And, I think a lot of women shooters do have higher shot skills compensate for that. I don't think they worry about arrow speed as much as they worry about being able to control their form for shot to shot consistency to hit that 10 ring.

My wife is working on developing her strength to go to heavier limbs, not because of the wind, but more to get her site on the spot at 70m. Right now her site is bottomed out, and she still has to aim above the target at 70m. She has an insanely short draw length for someone that is 5'-8" She says she has T-Rex arms.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I agree with the fact that speed has a distinct advantage when it comes to windage control. That is what I say compounders at 50m has a big advantage in scoring potential than a recurve at 70m.
> 
> I contend that one still needs to know how to shoot their equipment in what ever environment of the day.
> 
> ...


Agree. Weight and speed are only a benefit up to the point where you are no longer dominating the bow/shot consistently.


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

"Olympic Champion and 11th seed Oh Jin Hyek is OUT of the 2015 World Archery Championships in the first round: 'I can’t cope with this wind.'”


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Your reading comprehension could use some work. *I stated that I wasn't sure why this was a question, not why this thread was started.* If you can't understand the difference, you should ask for a refund from your college English professor, assuming you attended college.
> 
> As for the reasons I offered, they are born from personal experience as an Olympic archer, and one who has coached many young women, including several who have made our Jr USAT squad and world teams. If you have more experience than that, feel free to lay it on us.


The thread was started because the OP wanted to ask the question despite you disallowing it from your thread, also on gender equality in archery. 
As for "why this was a question" - If you mean "Why has this question been asked" (grammatically correct English translation) then it is really simple - because it was asked by those interested in the numerous subsequent responses.

Going toe to toe with me when it comes to the English language is a losing battle for you, I promise. You need your own division because your at a bigger disadvantage than a paraplegic in a shoot-off with Signore Nespoli.

Anyway, which Olympics did you compete at? Did you do well? how about your students? any Olympians among them?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You need your own division because your at a bigger disadvantage than a paraplegic in a shoot-off with Signore Nespoli.


LOL. Very PC.

The feeding frenzy has been going full speed lately and apparently you want to jump on board. Go ahead. I coudn't care less. You seem to want an argument, and you're not going to get it from me today.


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> LOL. Very PC.
> 
> The feeding frenzy has been going full speed lately and apparently you want to jump on board. Go ahead. I coudn't care less. You seem to want an argument, and you're not going to get it from me today.


Oh your the PC police too? no surprise really. I never wanted an argument and haven't started one - its you who picked on me to begin with and throughout - "START YOUR OWN THREAD" wasn't very friendly and your attempts to insult me with regard to language and education aren't going to build any bridges either. 

You obviously don't approve of the idea of mixed gender archery competition and came to this thread to throw your weight about - you resent it even being discussed. 
I question your suitability as a coach for women if you think they are so inferior - I know if I were a female archer, I wouldn't want a coach who sees my whole gender as handicapped. 

Again, which Olympics did you compete at?


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Longlost said:


> The thread was started because the OP wanted to ask the question despite you disallowing it from your thread, also on gender equality in archery.
> As for "why this was a question" - If you mean "Why has this question been asked" (grammatically correct English translation) then it is really simple - because it was asked by those interested in the numerous subsequent responses.
> 
> Going toe to toe with me when it comes to the English language is a losing battle for you, I promise. You need your own division because your at a bigger disadvantage than a paraplegic in a shoot-off with Signore Nespoli.
> ...


...and what are YOUR archery credentials if i may ask??

BTW this is an archery forum not an english language one so your passive brag on your mastery of it is meaningless here...

also can we find your name anywhere in wikipedia or in google??

and oh..john was a member of the US Olympic archery team in Athens..


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Is this the point at which you accuse someone of trolling? I really don't know how that works, so...

As for "not approving of mixed gender" competitions, since you are new I wouldn't expect you to know my history on this topic. I was one of, if not the first to ask here on AT many years ago why we don't have mixed team competitions in archery, the way they do in tennis. This was years before WA tested then approved the mixed team event.

Finally, if suggesting you start your own thread after derailing someone else's makes you feel like you're being picked on, you either need thicker skin, or more experience on internet discussion forums. I'm thinking both would be helpful to you.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys (and gals) -

Every body has a opinion here, so here's mind. 

Forget 90M it''s effectively a dead venue. On the 70M course and certainly on the indoor circuits weight and draw length are of little advantage, except "maybe" in the lower ranks. I've run a number of leagues and matches and while may not have 100's of competitors, I never needed a separate class for female shooters. We based our classifications on scores alone. The ladies held their own quite nicely. 

Years and years ago, heavier equipment was an advantage that was hard to bead, but not today. The only reason to separate the sexes would be to help keep male egos intact. But then again, I would throw BB into the same class as the sight shooters (and have). 

Viper1 out.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Just go down the line at a major event when the wind is blowing and ask how far off the male archers are having to aim vs. the ladies. The answers would be very revealing.

A young lady I've coached for the past 3 years (during which time she's won more national championships than I can recall, made two JR USAT teams, and a world indoor team) - at her peak - would consistently give me a run for my money indoors. However, outdoors at 70 meters, she has never even come close. Her best 70M score in competition is a 318, shooting 34# on the fingers. Last Saturday, she and I shot at the same event and we both had a "so-so" day by our own standards. I shot a 327. 

This myth that the women can routinely compete with men across the board on a windy venue is just that. And it's not their fault. It's just simple math. A 47# bow is going to beat a 40# bow 9 times out of 10 when the wind is blowing.


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Longlost said:


> Again, which Olympics did you compete at?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cGdlZ71Kd0


----------



## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Longlost said:


> Going toe to toe with me when it comes to the English language is a losing battle for you, I promise. You need your own division because *your *at a bigger disadvantage than a paraplegic in a shoot-off with Signore Nespoli.


*you're*


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

How about, we go forward this way because it's how it's been done, harmless, and not inherently sexist. Akin to having a compound, barebow, or Olympic division (or worse, the NFAA category splits), we simply note the different genders. In doing so you reward 2 sets of archers instead of 1, which means more people recognized. The key being, and this is what JM was getting at, an intent to treat them basically the same. Tradition + modern.

Sexist, to me, is IBO saying women and children are limited to 60#. Not only a separate division but because of presumed difference.

To lob a thought grenade in here, if the genders are getting roughly equal at some events under some conditions, why not have an overall qualifying champion across the class, in addition to the gender + class specific medals. Lin/Nespoli looks to me like if you treated women with equal dignity and worked tails off all the way the distinctions would start to disappear, strength differences or not. Lin wins the qualifying award at worlds that sends a pretty emphatic message.


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Hey, any women here?

Has anyone thought of asking, women?


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

There may be a more fundamental reason to have separate genders in Olympic archery (and thus world archery). That is to further promote gender equality around the world, especially in countries that view women as second class citizens. Wikipedia has an interesting piece on gender equality and its history in the Olympics and which sports are gender specific , e.g. Rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming for women and decathlon for men.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Olympic_Committee_and_gender_equality_in_sports

Of course in Olympic equestrian the rider can be of either (or in this day and age ANY) gender.

I know in our 4H program we have an "open" and female division so the ladies can choose to compete in the male division if they desire. But, that discussion on how that evolved and why is a whole other topic.


----------



## LFate (Nov 6, 2007)

As a female BB archer, I don’t have many women to shoot with so I typically shoot with men. I’m a decent shooter with average 900 round score of roughly 650. I shoot a 31 pound bow. At 60 yards I’m aiming into the sky or some point way above the target. My observations have been that I am completely competitive with men shooting roughly the same poundage as me (with skill level about the same). When I shoot with men shooting bows 40 + lbs I usually can’t compete (again with skill level about the same). There are too many conditions I have to account for that they don’t just due to the greater poundage. Recently I shot under very windy conditions with a guy who is shooting 36 lbs. I’m a more experienced archer but my arrows were being blown significantly off course, I could barely keep the arrows on the paper, while his arrows having a flatter trajectory were not as significantly affected by the wind. His score was lower than his average but a good 40 points higher than my score.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

LFate said:


> As a female BB archer, I don’t have many women to shoot with so I typically shoot with men. I’m a decent shooter with average 900 round score of roughly 650. I shoot a 31 pound bow. At 60 yards I’m aiming into the sky or some point way above the target. My observations have been that I am completely competitive with men shooting roughly the same poundage as me (with skill level about the same). When I shoot with men shooting bows 40 + lbs I usually can’t compete (again with skill level about the same). There are too many conditions I have to account for that they don’t just due to the greater poundage. Recently I shot under very windy conditions with a guy who is shooting 36 lbs. I’m a more experienced archer but my arrows were being blown significantly off course, I could barely keep the arrows on the paper, while his arrows having a flatter trajectory were not as significantly affected by the wind. His score was lower than his average but a good 40 points higher than my score.


Your post reminds me of another issue for low poundage archers, which is distance estimation. It's not a problem for target archery which has round at specific distances, but for unmarked field and 3d higher poundage bows have a tremendous advantage due to the flatter trajectory, meaning miss estimations of distsnce have a much lower effect on score. Low poundage bow shots at distance are somewhat akin to a free throw shot, they're a bit of a lob.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Longlost said:


> Really?! that's all you got??
> 
> Now, lets be clear.
> I didn't claim ANY expertise or credentials so mine are irrelevant.
> ...


I like the very careful use of the past tense there, it almost seems like you're tacity admitting that there is somebody else acting superior and being demeaning to others now.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Longlost said:


> Again, which Olympics did you compete at?


Athens 2004 with Butch Johnson and Brady Ellison. They lost shooting for the gold medal by one point. Lost the bronze medal match by 2. Finished one off the podium. Quite an accomplishment and some great shooting in those matches. 


I may not always agree with John, But i have a huge amount of respect for him as a coach and a proponent for archery. He is also someone i enjoy seeing on the forum and i like reading his opinion on here. Sometimes i agree, sometimes not. His posts are informative and while he may play the devils advocate, his insight is usually point on. 


Chris


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

Warbow said:


> I like the very careful use of the past tense there, it almost seems like you're tacity admitting that there is somebody else acting superior and being demeaning to others now.


Nope, I used past tense because its in the past. Limbwalker was the one acting superior when he inappropriately insulted my education and reading comprehension. I only responded to it. You can see further examples of him acting superior and demeaning me in his unwarranted and ridiculous assessment of my understanding of internet forum discussion. He deflects genuine criticism by throwing mud. 
Maybe you should take a look at his posts more carefully. Insults, rudeness, boasting and being argumentative are all his. If anyone feels demeaned by my comments, they brought it on themselves by insulting me in a way that invites an easy, obvious and demeaning response.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Longlost said:


> I respect and admire his achievement at the Olympics. He is obviously a great archer... and a dick.


At this point you are just projecting.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Longlost said:


> I respect and admire his achievement at the Olympics. He is obviously a great archer... and a dick.


 - I think most people would be hard pressed to come up with an archer and coach who has been a bigger champion for female archers' interests than Limbwalker. There's no telling how many archers he's positively impacted and helped in their archery journeys/quests (including me). 

- I am the OP, and I wasn't offended by John's first post on this thread. It was typically direct, and had a nudge in the ribs and a wink to it ("are you suuuuure you asked that the way you wanted to ask it?") - but maybe a reader wouldn't obviously pick up on that if he/she didn't know John (I do). Of course, my question was asked, with a wink that may have been too obtuse, just to get a discussion about the merits/weights of the differences of female and male archery physics, and maybe what other differences might be brought out. I think male and female divisions should remain, by the way. But I'm always quick to tell new students that being told they 'shoot like a girl' is high praise in this sport.

- 2004 Olympics in Athens, Greece, with Butch Johnson and Vic Wunderle. 

- You've come a little unglued in this thread, Longlost. This forum has been, on balance, remarkably civil and informative over the years. I just turned 59, and how I spend my daily allotment of 'attention chips' is more on my mind all the time. None of them will be spent on you for awhile, so, sorry to get the last word but I'm putting you on my ignore list.


----------



## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

John, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion; no reason to give anyone the shaft....


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Larry - 

The cool thing about threads like this, is that it gives people a chance to express their opinions and beliefs and blow off steam. The really cool thing is that beyond that, it isn't going to change anyone's mind or how things are done. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Larry -
> 
> The cool thing about threads like this, is that it gives people a chance to express their opinions and beliefs and blow off steam. The really cool thing is that beyond that, it isn't going to change anyone's mind or how things are done.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Maybe not by itself, but *not* talking about it certainly won't change things. And I think a number of topics here on AT have eventually corresponded with change - such as the BB turnout at the nationals. 

So, this thread might just be speculative and the women's head coach thread might just be venting, but change may happen, too.


----------



## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Last_Bastion said:


> John, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion; no reason to give anyone the shaft....


Just put a helmet on to protect yourself.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Longlost said:


> Now, lets be clear.
> I didn't claim ANY expertise or credentials so mine are irrelevant.


really? 



Longlost said:


> Going toe to toe with me when it comes to the English language is a losing battle for you, I promise. You need your own division because your at a bigger disadvantage than a paraplegic in a shoot-off with Signore Nespoli.


I would say that is claiming expertise in the English language. 


Chris


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

chrstphr said:


> Athens 2004 with Butch Johnson and Brady Ellison. They lost shooting for the gold medal by one point. Lost the bronze medal match by 2. Finished one off the podium. Quite an accomplishment and some great shooting in those matches.
> Chris


oops. Had Brady on the brain while i was looking at the World Champs results. 

yes, the team was Butch Johnson, John and *Vic Wonderle*. 


Chris


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Longlost said:


> I respect and admire his achievement at the Olympics. He is obviously a great archer... and a dick.


...and you are a rude, onion-skinned and ignorant wannabee.....

..... you obviously are ignorant of the background of many respected posters here and you are sounding more and more ignorant the more you post.....


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

last_bastion said:


> john, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion; no reason to give anyone the shaft....


lol.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, Vic's name is spelled Wunderle. Since we're obsessing over grammer and such thangs.  ha, ha.


----------



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Chris, Vic's name is spelled Wunderle. Since we're obsessing over grammer and such thangs.  ha, ha.


lucky i never claimed expertise in the english language. 

Somehow i always misspell his name. I think this is the second time on AT i have gotten it wrong. I need to start googling it before i post. 

Chris


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> lucky i never claimed expertise in the english language.


Indeed.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Well I for one find it extremely inspiring to have the towering figures in our sport on the forum. It's not everywhere where you can get support and talk archery with olympians and champions on a daily basis. 

Regarding the topic of gender divisions, I'm with warbow and others in thinking this might be a question for both men and women shooters and could be decided together. 

I'm 52 and getting back in after a long layoff, so at about 17lbs OTF I can be outshot by virtually anybody, man, woman or child. So as a competitor, I'd be honored to shoot with anyone, personally. At my age, it's always myself that I'm trying to beat every time I go to the line...

DM


----------



## LFate (Nov 6, 2007)

I'm with you dmacey, I really don't care who I shoot with as long as I can shoot. I just try not to have high expectation when I shoot with certain people. I'm sure if Alan E was shooting the same poundage as me he would still kick my butt twice over and a lot of other people besides men or women.:wink:


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

LFate said:


> I'm with you dmacey, I really don't care who I shoot with as long as I can shoot. I just try not to have high expectation when I shoot with certain people. I'm sure if Alan E was shooting the same poundage as me he would still kick my butt twice over and a lot of other people besides men or women.:wink:


You know I've never even met the man, and yet whenever I think I'm shooting decently with a barebow, always in the back of my mind is "you know Alan Eagleton would totally kick your butt." (Not limited to AE, either, it's a big, big number of BB shooters :-0 ) I was kind of delighted to hear a few weeks ago that a local university archery club got together with Allan Eagleton to talk about Barebow techniques. Nice to know some college clubs aren't limited in interest to Olympic recurve.


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

You know when I posted that Limbwalker was "a great archer.. and a dick", I was sure at least one of you would come up with "whereas you are just a dick" You disappoint me guys.


----------



## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Longlost said:


> You know when I posted that Limbwalker was "a great archer.. and a dick", I was sure at least one of you would come up with "whereas you are just a dick" You disappoint me guys.


Who knows, maybe you're a great archer. Either way, your phallic self identification is so much more gratifying so... Way to hit gold.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Longlost said:


> You know when I posted that Limbwalker was "a great archer.. and a dick", I was sure at least one of you would come up with "whereas you are just a dick" You disappoint me guys.


So, troll attempted setup fail. 

Time for me to join the list of people putting you on ignore.


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

There is a 10 year old girl in our JOAD club who, if I shoot the same barebow 14lb dw that she is shooting at 20yards, I can't outshoot her. So for purely pecking order reasons, I'm all for separate gender divisions :set1_rolf2:


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> There is a 10 year old girl in our JOAD club who, if I shoot the same barebow 14lb dw that she is shooting at 20yards, I can't outshoot her. So for purely pecking order reasons, I'm all for separate gender divisions :set1_rolf2:


Hmm...how do the girls do in NASP, I wonder. They are at a slight disadvantage because, on average, they're pulling with a higher percentage of their strength than the boys are, but on the other hand, the boys can't shoot higher poundages and get an advantage that way. :dontknow:


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I prefer penis.


No surprises there either.

Warbow - you disappoint me the most. I expected better from you than the old ignore list lie


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Viper1 said:


> Larry -
> 
> The cool thing about threads like this, is that it gives people a chance to express their opinions and beliefs and blow off steam. The really cool thing is that beyond that, it isn't going to change anyone's mind or how things are done.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Viper, Ain't it the truth! But discussing/arguing a thread like this is a heckuva lot better than being outside this week where the heat index is 111.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Viper, Ain't it the truth! But discussing/arguing a thread like this is a heckuva lot better than being outside this week where the heat index is 111.


I have been, and you're right.


----------



## MIshooter (Sep 19, 2014)

dmacey said:


> Well I for one find it extremely inspiring to have the towering figures in our sport on the forum. It's not everywhere where you can get support and talk archery with olympians and champions on a daily basis.
> 
> Regarding the topic of gender divisions, I'm with warbow and others in thinking this might be a question for both men and women shooters and could be decided together.
> 
> ...


Agree 100% with this first part.


----------



## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

Limbwalker/John

I apologise for calling you silly names. I'm sure you weren't bothered but I needed to do this for me - that's not who I am, I just got carried away with it all. 
I still think women are just as capable at archery and shouldn't be relegated to their own division but respect your view as an insider - I just don't see it that way from the outside looking in. Hope this is well received and have a good day, everyone.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thanks for the apology. I don't particularly need it (after 16 years as an LEO, I've been called far worse) but the members here deserve it.


----------



## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Warbow said:


> Hmm...how do the girls do in NASP, I wonder. They are at a slight disadvantage because, on average, they're pulling with a higher percentage of their strength than the boys are, but on the other hand, the boys can't shoot higher poundages and get an advantage that way. :dontknow:


In Washington State, a couple years our high overall score was shot by a girl - Middle School age - beat everyone else including the HS!


----------



## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

One thing I'll say about gender divisions in archery (and it applies to the age divisions also) is that it facilitates social grouping.

It is enjoyable, and there are some advantages (particularly in field / 3D) to shooting with others of the same gender and age.

And the conversation topics are (usually) of more interest also.


----------



## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

One thing I'll say about gender divisions in archery (and it applies to the age divisions also) is that it facilitates social grouping.

It is enjoyable, and there are some advantages (particularly in field / 3D) to shooting with others of the same gender and age.

And the conversation topics are (usually) of more interest also.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

wa-prez said:


> One thing I'll say about gender divisions in archery (and it applies to the age divisions also) is that it facilitates social grouping.
> 
> It is enjoyable, and there are some advantages (particularly in field / 3D) to shooting with others of the same gender and age.
> 
> And the conversation topics are (usually) of more interest also.


I suppose, but I have to say I prefer a mix of people at the range - I like the family atmosphere at out club. I really don't need any more hobbies that tend to be a boys club. Depends on what you want, of course.


----------



## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

The flighted divisions and Championship BB in Vegas make no provisions for Age, Gender, Race, Height, Weight, Eye dominance, Bank Account or Political Affiliation. It has been this way for years. 

It is really all about shooting pointy sticks in the middle of a round paper target. It is that simple......... as the target don't care about any of the silly excuses we human make to appear more than we are ....... or are not (LOL). That is the beauty of it. 

I think the Championship BB class is the ultimate class as these guys and gals have the best outlook for the most part. The don't care if you're male or female shooting a compound or a recurve. This is because it is all legal in this class. I don't hear much complaining. Everyone in the class knows it is all about who came to shoot that day. I think many of them are the true keepers of flame when it comes the pure joy of shooting a bow. Cheers to people like Tom Daley Sr. my hero and favorite archer. He has done more to instill what archery is about for me........... having a good time and not making excuses. 


-R&B


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So, I think it's fair to say that in major events, it only makes sense to offer separate divisions (more recognition for both genders, more opportunities to medal) but in smaller, local events, the organizers can do what they want. 

At our most recent state JOAD outdoor, I ended up with a group of five archers who where one-person divisions. They were mixed genders and equipment (barebow, compound and recurve). I set up a "50 Meter Open" division and handicapped them according to their qualification scores, and then they all went out there and shot head to head matches (double elim.) at 50 meters on a 122cm face. The competition was fierce, and fun.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Warbow said:


> You know I've never even met the man, and yet whenever I think I'm shooting decently with a barebow, always in the back of my mind is "you know Alan Eagleton would totally kick your butt." (Not limited to AE, either, it's a big, big number of BB shooters :-0 ) I was kind of delighted to hear a few weeks ago that a local university archery club got together with Allan Eagleton to talk about Barebow techniques. Nice to know some college clubs aren't limited in interest to Olympic recurve.


Well I believe collegiate and even JOAD programs now include compound. Which I think is absolutely fantastic because even tho I'm an olympic style guy these days, I still love compound and shoot it once in a while still. But it's a little puzzling for JOAD since compound is sadly a dead end if you specifically aspire to eventually shoot in the olympics? 

But yes, in the late 80's/early 90's when I first started showing up on the front lawns at TAMU during the team practices, I dragged my old Darton compound wheel bow the first time or two. And I was rudely run off because the compound was still an abomination in college archery at that time and I didn't come back until I'd gotten my Gold Medalist. 

Now it's a first class citizen in collegiate clubs I believe? I've been out of school for a long time, so I may be wrong about that? And yes, all the barebow warms my heart too. If I could shoot a recurve or longbow without a clicker, I'd love to do BB as well....

DM


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

That is interesting in a literal sense. If USAA is Olympic-oriented and JOAD is Olympic-development where do compound or barebow literally fit into that? I suppose the response would be something more like, they are actually the gateway to World Archery as well and that brings compound and barebow in. And also there are the running arguments that one or both of the disciplines should be in the Olympics, and you could argue we should be prepared when it happens. People make similar arguments about recurve-strong countries like Korea also developing compound shooters.

However I would expect that financially as a function of sponsorship and prizes compound, at least here and in Europe, leaves the Olympic version in the dust. You look at pretty much every major US event and payouts are better for compounds. There is a European summer series for compounds. I don't know what the pros make but I suspect that the best several compound archers are closer to making a living as a pro athlete than the recurve set are.

Meanwhile I am drifting towards barebow.


----------

