# BF EXTREMES VS BORDER HEX 6 w BB Tech :)



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

As for shoot ability 

We started on my deck practicing tree stand shots



















I have a few 3 D targets set out and you can walk around the deck and shoot thru limbs at different distances kinda playing PIG like in basketball 










Then we took the Rhinehart Ball and went roving 

We walked my woods just throwing the ball and where ever it ends up you shoot it 

I don't know if you can make out the ball but it's out there 



















The way I look at it is if you can keep your arrows in the ball your killing deer 











We ended up back on my 3 D's just shooting one arrow from different angles and distances. In my opinion these different *styles of practiceing are the best for a hunter 

All shots are unknown distances the ground is different levels and the deck shooting is perfect for tree stand hunting 

When it comes to comparing bows

We switched back and forth and both bows are fantastic and can both be picked up by either of us and shot well.

You feel the weight of the borders at first rather quickly and then they have a noticeable let off at full draw that would take me a bit to get used to.

The Extremes are just smooth all the way back till they kinda just start resisting

Speed is negligible in my mind

All phenolic risered bows are famous for there lack of hand shock but I still felt a little buzz from the Border equipped bow, *compared to my bow with the BF's but to be fair my riser has 2 inches more Phenolic riser and limb savers and is the deadest bow in the hand I have ever felt.

In the end I prefered mine and Ray preferred his ( so he said  ) 

Ray usually out shoots me and today we where about equal so I was pleased 

So in my mind there is no winner just 2 very bad ass hunting rigs and I would be happy with either one 

Thx for looking


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Cool, JP. I like practicing different ways, as well. Nice bows, by the way!


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## Yohon (Aug 28, 2003)

JP I remember seein Jay shooting that rig at Baltimore and was impressed with the rig and his shooting. It kinda stuck with me, while watching him shoot how those limbs appeared to vibrate at the tips alot at the end of the shot. Interesting that you felt it.....both cool lookin rigs!!!!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Awesome story, write up and pics! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Awesome story, write up and pics! :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


:thumbs_up


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Cool comparison!

Two observations:

The 17" riser and mediums should be faster with all other variables the same.

The Border limbs were being run at the max end of their recommended BH, and if you have the bolts wound in at all that could be dropped. From personal experience that is worth quite a bit of speed with those limbs.

Personally I like the longer risers, but I love the small sight window on the short ones.

-Grant


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Grant we also ran the Borders at 6.5 inch brace height 

At that brace height they averaged 1 fps faster and the buzz was more. 

I don't think his limbs where cranked down all the way 

Thx for the comments guys


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

Great pics and write up....Looks like you guys had a good time.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

The first thing I noticed was the difference in the amount of recurve between the two limbs. The Borders really have a deep recurve. 

Great looking bows and a great write up. They have me thinking of the term "Black Death"...:thumbs_up


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

Good stuff. 

Nice to see a comparison on the chrony. 

Just made the last payment on my Hex 6 BB2, hopefully they arrive in the next 1-3 weeks. Been great dealing with Sid at border.


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

Great story, my wife does not like you giving me ideas tho!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Easykeeper said:


> The first thing I noticed was the difference in the amount of recurve between the two limbs. The Borders really have a deep recurve.


Me too. I saw a similar curve on the Morrison website with some of their 'extreme' limbs, or something like that. It sounds like, from your description and the shape of the limbs, that the Borders are designed to maximize speed at a particular holding weight, in part by maximizing the area under the draw force curve. The extended curve and angle on the tips (and they look stiffer on the tips, by the pull), makes it stack faster initially, and as you get to full draw, the effective leverage increase (because the string is now pulling relatively farther on the limb than when the limb had the string curled against it, accounts for the let-off. Did you verify that it actually let off on draw weight, or was that just a subjective impression? Ergonomically, our bodies should have an easier time holding weight at full draw because of alignment, so it could indeed feel lighter even if were only getting heavier more slowly.

I would suspect that the Borders limbs are actually storing (and requiring from draw) significantly more energy, and that your BF limbs might be slightly more efficient, for whatever that's worth. I'd guess that I'd be quite happy with either 

Really cool comparison. Chance to compare your Titan II to the Morrison 17" yet?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Me too. I saw a similar curve on the Morrison website with some of their 'extreme' limbs, or something like that. It sounds like, from your description and the shape of the limbs, that the Borders are designed to maximize speed at a particular holding weight, in part by maximizing the area under the draw force curve. The extended curve and angle on the tips (and they look stiffer on the tips, by the pull), makes it stack faster initially, and as you get to full draw, the effective leverage increase (because the string is now pulling relatively farther on the limb than when the limb had the string curled against it, accounts for the let-off. Did you verify that it actually let off on draw weight, or was that just a subjective impression? Ergonomically, our bodies should have an easier time holding weight at full draw because of alignment, so it could indeed feel lighter even if were only getting heavier more slowly.
> 
> I would suspect that the Borders limbs are actually storing (and requiring from draw) significantly more energy, and that your BF limbs might be slightly more efficient, for whatever that's worth. I'd guess that I'd be quite happy with either
> 
> Really cool comparison. Chance to compare your Titan II to the Morrison 17" yet?


Barney I only scaled the bows at 28 inches I did not see if the borders spiked and then actually dropped weight but you could definitely feel the limb tips open up so to say

I actually prefered the BF's but that could be that I am just used to them 

I have not received my 17 inch Titan yet to do a direct comparison against the Morrison


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

The Hex-6 limbs keep increasing poundage as you draw them further they just don't gain it as fast at the peak draw - on my draw I gain 2 pounds per inch from 26-29 and only 1.5 per inch from 29-32 - these are very rough numbers but, that is what gives the feel of the "let off"

Matt


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

our limbs are not as well known in terms of tune than conventional recurve profiles. this means that our limbs are not as well understood.

Lets start with some other info.

We have a 72" RX Hex6 BB2 running at 7.25" brace hieght.
We have a 68" running at 6. 7/8" brace height both shooting 1220+ Fita Scores
What happens when you drop the Brace hieght is that you need to retune the tiller settings to get rid of the buzz. Try it. Measure the static tiller at say 5" of brace height and at 7" and you will notice a difference. So this means that the final limb timing will change as you change brace. As will centreshot and NP positions.

Once all this has been retuned, a retake of the speeds will start to take consideration of the limbs design. For example we have a 60" on a 17" riser here shooting with a 6" Brace height. We have remade a DX riser with 1/2" more deflex and this means that the limbs are running quiet at 5.5" BH relative to limb position, while the deflex allows more clearance to stop the string slapping your wrist.

We also have a bow thats smoother to pull in its 60" guise than a 70" target bow. with it being 2lbs heavier but pulled less lbs between 29-30". This indicates that the Hex limbs can and do prefere the shorter limb on the longer riser for its draw length without sacrificing draw quality. This particular test has the hex limbs running the other way round to the way they prefere.
Normally limb length is dictated by smoothness of draw. thats not even a consideration when a meduim ILF Hex on a 17" is smoother than a Meduim normal limb on a 27" RX.

This shorter limbs, longer riser combo makes the hex limbs feel more conventional, and takes advantage of the reduced limb mass of the shorter limb and still delivers a smoother draw.

The hex program started in 2001, with the hex3, and has worked its way, by incremental change to the hex6.

hope that helps put our findings on the table.
Thanks for the feedback we are always keen to know what people find in our gear


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Me too. I saw a similar curve on the Morrison website with some of their 'extreme' limbs, or something like that. It sounds like, from your description and the shape of the limbs, that the Borders are designed to maximize speed at a particular holding weight, in part by maximizing the area under the draw force curve. The extended curve and angle on the tips (and they look stiffer on the tips, by the pull), makes it stack faster initially, and as you get to full draw, the effective leverage increase (because the string is now pulling relatively farther on the limb than when the limb had the string curled against it, accounts for the let-off. Did you verify that it actually let off on draw weight, or was that just a subjective impression? Ergonomically, our bodies should have an easier time holding weight at full draw because of alignment, so it could indeed feel lighter even if were only getting heavier more slowly.
> 
> I would suspect that the Borders limbs are actually storing (and requiring from draw) significantly more energy, and that your BF limbs might be slightly more efficient, for whatever that's worth. I'd guess that I'd be quite happy with either
> 
> Really cool comparison. Chance to compare your Titan II to the Morrison 17" yet?


if its energy input is your battle, then you could drop 2lbs and still shoot the same arrow at the same speed as the other bow. but dropping bow weight also gains control. For example if you ever need to hold for a fraction longer, id rather hold 50lbs than 52lbs. with the same energy required to get there. if you see what im getting at...

your right about the preload. The load increase at the front end of the draw is the same level of climb as most other limbs. our limbs are not heavily preloaded, infact the opposite. what we do have is a constant preload right out to 26" before the inflection point turns the DFC the other way. this gives constant energy growth. the preload heavy feel is actually in the middle of the stroke. rather than the beginning.
Most bows have an inflection point between convex DFC "preload" energy and the concaved stack energy of 22" vs our 26"

you sound like you have played with recurve designs?

We increased the initial preload to match the likes of the Hoyt and W&W limbs for the first 4" of pull with the hex6 limbs, we also increased the limb length from the hex5 to the hex6 so that the bow conforms to a normal length, so these limbs require longer strings to achieve the required low Brace height. The low Brace height reduces the preload of the limbs if you want to see why im saying we needed to increase the preload to equal the Hoyt and W&W counterparts.

and no, there is no actual letoff, but there isnt the expected climb. so it feels like a letoff.
We are working on a flight limb that only gains 1.2lbs between 28-29" for a 40lbs bow. that has a very odd feeling. it litterally falls back into the clicker opposed to needing hauled back.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Nice writeup JP, enjoyed the read!


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Very interesting string angle difference between limbs. I wonder if the static tips on the Border limbs equate to less of string angle menaing less pinch leading to a smoother release. I may be nitpicking but sometime it's the little things that work to our advantage.


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

Good stuff JP..Nice place you got there too!!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Mo0se said:


> Nice writeup JP, enjoyed the read!


Thx Moose


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

LongStick64 said:


> Very interesting string angle difference between limbs. I wonder if the static tips on the Border limbs equate to less of string angle menaing less pinch leading to a smoother release. I may be nitpicking but sometime it's the little things that work to our advantage.


I did not feel any difference in finger pinch or release


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Lil Okie said:


> Good stuff JP..Nice place you got there too!!


Thx Okie  

I've been here over 20 years and I love it


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borders, thanks for all of that info! Really interesting.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Love your explanation. No recurve design, just physics Junkie. Questions....


Please define...

inflection point
DFC
constant energy growth

"We increased the initial preload to match the likes of the Hoyt and W&W limbs for the first 4" of pull with the hex6 limbs"

Can you elaborate on this?

"we also increased the limb length from the hex5 to the hex6 so that the bow conforms to a normal length, so these limbs require longer strings to achieve the required low Brace height. The low Brace height reduces the preload of the limbs if you want to see why im saying we needed to increase the preload to equal the Hoyt and W&W counterparts."

And this part too? Is when you say preload of the limbs, do you mean that unstrung, they're arching more forward, more reflexed, or whatever, and as such, the string needs to be a little longer?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have a question when running brace heights that low are the bows as forgiving as if the brace height was set higher ?

Performance wise we only lost 1 fps when going from 6.5 to 7.25


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

JParanee said:


> I have a question when running brace heights that low are the bows as forgiving as if the brace height was set higher ?
> 
> Performance wise we only lost 1 fps when going from 6.5 to 7.25


Why would it interfere with forgivenes?

Im not dodging the question, more like asking whats caused the rumour.

How about the idea that changing the BH being one change and "Oh my groups have opened up" can simply be discribed as a bow going out of tune.

here are some simple tests to check out.
setup a bow with a 5" Brace height and a 9" BH. dont shoot it though.
Record the following:
Nocking point
Centreshot
Tiller
and the obvious is the change in DFC.

all these change with BH, ad all these effect tune.


Hope this helps explain that alot of observations are made without a complete retune. and if thats the case the assumptions can become fact. We firmly beleave that low BH are unstable is a myth. it all can be tuned. from an english longbow with no window cut, through to a compound. why is BH any different. some compounds are now also running low BH...


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't know that's why I am asking 

You are correct I was always told a low brace height was faster but not as forgiving. I assume for the same reason it's faster it has a longer power stroke so the arrow is in contact with the string longer so there is a greater chance for operator error if that makes sense. 

I am certainly not qualified to say if its an old wives tale or not. You would no better than I if it is  

Like I mentioned in the original post I thought the Hex 6's where fantastic and shot very well and I would like to have a set someday. 

I did feel they shot better at 7 1/4 than they did at 6.5


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Love your explanation. No recurve design, just physics Junkie. Questions....
> 
> 
> Please define...
> ...


ive answered though the middle of your post quoted, but this last one has taken alot of our R&D. Im not going to elaborate how we did it, but you have two options as a bow designer. you can either make your bow fit a standard AMO string, and to get a lower BH you need a shorter bow. If you want to maintain string angles, (ease of release) you have to opt for non standard strings. our bows require strings closer to 2" shorter than bow length to fit the right BH. rather than the 3" shorter.
since we as a company are about quality shooting, we didnt want to compromise string angles on the fingers. so we opted for the right bow length but a non standard string length.

does this answer your questions?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

JParanee said:


> I don't know that's why I am asking
> 
> You are correct I was always told a low brace height was faster but not as forgiving. I assume for the same reason it's faster it has a longer power stroke so the arrow is in contact with the string longer so there is a greater chance for operator error if that makes sense.
> 
> ...


.Id think they needed retuned. 
If you drop the BH the race between the top limb and the bottom limb has a different finish location.
If you think of vibration as a race between the top limb and bottom, you can truncate the race with a change in BH. set the BH where the finish line puts both limbs equal. or you can change the tiller to favour one limb so that they cross the finish line (BH) where you have set it.or you can change the way you push through the grip differently so that you change the balance aswell...

If higher BH are better, then a 10" BH would be better but you dont get them?
if you have a release error then the lower BH will have more time to settle out? both vertically and horizontally.
Archery is about oscillations and the more time to settle the better?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

So, it would seem that we would want our inflection point pretty close to full draw, wouldn't it? Is there an inherent disadvantage to doing this, or perhaps, is it a balancing game, and if so, what factors do you balance? Is there something related between going for smoothness of draw and speed, or something else?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> So, it would seem that we would want our inflection point pretty close to full draw, wouldn't it? Is there an inherent disadvantage to doing this, or perhaps, is it a balancing game, and if so, what factors do you balance? Is there something related between going for smoothness of draw and speed, or something else?


not quite, but nearly... there is a more optimal point in our view. but thats a totally different topic, and a huge one at that. our flight limbs are testing this area for us. we have a series of flight limbs that test what can be done. our comitment to flight archery is prooving usefull with our flight limbs taking almost all the UK recurve positions, as well as all the conventional spec recurve bow world records.
Target bow and trad bow.
One world record was set here in the UK, 50lbs target bow ladies. (if i have my data correct) so didnt even gain the low air density benefits of salt lake in the US.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> not quite, but nearly... there is a more optimal point in our view. but thats a totally different topic, and a huge one at that.


Would you be willing, for our benefit, to discuss your point of view on that topic? We can open a new thread, if you prefer.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Would you be willing, for our benefit, to discuss your point of view on that topic? We can open a new thread, if you prefer.


We are still prooving our theories. so not ready yet to put the theories out there.

We are waiting on feedback on this. But basically, we have limbs with a inflection point before, on and after anchor point, and we are waiting on more substancial data.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Had a set of standard Hex-6 they were a little to heavy and sold them - currently shooting the hex-6 BB2 and have no intention of selling them

I've been shooting my Hex-6 BB2 for about a month or 2 now and I have noticed several things

1- they are SO sweet at the end of my draw so far nothing really compares for a long draw shooter like me

2- they are a more efficient limb and as such give more speed - don't care for a ton more speed as I get that from my long draw but, it has let me drop draw weight a little and shoot a heavier more FOC arrow at the same trajectory as my old set up. Easier hold and a much more forgiving arrow - I think many times we are talking about forgiving limbs or bows when we really should be talking about forgiving arrows.

3- the BB2 generation of limbs doesn't seem to have as much preload but, what I have found (not what Sid intended I am sure) is that the initial preload forces you to use your back when drawing and contributes to a more efficient draw cycle and better form.

Love them Borders

Matt


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

thanks matt... if you ever come over to visit. maybe we can put our r&d togehter with your obserations and make you smile. (using a phone to typos are worse than normal)


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Getting back to your point about forgiving. I think you partly right, but here goes for our view on Mythical forgivness.

A unstable bow will clearly shoot well in a hootershooter. as long as the ammo is true and tight in tollerances. So, the variables are release and grip issues.
If a release issue nocks out the sideways displacement of the arrow, and has a similar effect as a variety of spines, then the two could be seen as similar. For example, if you had a dozen arrows that had a +/-10lbs spine range, then you would expect a left right spread from a perfect release... and if you had a imperfect release, and perfect arrows you could also expect a left right spread.
so its all about the alignment of paradox.
If a bow is tight, well manered and forgiving the spread would be tighter, on both occasions. since the aligment of the string is also controlled by the bow, Riser torque, limb deflections from straight lines... for example, if a plucked loose twisted the limbs, and resulted in a torque in the riser, and the reflexed nature of the riser made the final NP 1mm out, then thats going to impact on the arrow, but a deflexed riser might reduce this to 0.5mm...
then there must be a standard distribution graph (bell graph) of the peak being on tune...
Sensitive bows in our view are easy to tune, since on tune is a narrow platform of good results, and its clean cut, which way the arrow is spined. 
Forgiving bows have a wide top to the graph, meaning that you have a wider platform of forgiveness.
you can shoot a wider platform of arrows and still get reasonably good result. tuning becomes more picky, as takes bigger changes to get a desired effect. and this in turn means any deflection from the perfect loose on a forgiving bow takes more to nock it off its platform.

What i think might be the case that muddies the waters is when a bow is found to shoot with a tune, people stop tuning. but infact with forgiving bows, you must tune PAST that pointso that you find the opposite edge of the bell curve and then retreat to the middle position.
If you dont do this, you might have a bow thats forgiving, but on the edge. Stable to some errors, but sensitive to others. as you have the top of the bell on one side, and the steep edge to the other side. on tune vs out of tune.


Does this ramble make any sense?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Very cool stuff and thx for taking he time.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Makes sense! Thanks for the ramble.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Ok so now you've all piqued my interest.. The deflection point, I think I understand and so now here is the question. For someone with a 29+ draw which is myself.. I've found that my wife's bow actually feels like the deflection point is just before I reach anchor, meaning the resistance is not more or increased (which is expected) in the last inch getting to anchor. It's very comfortable at my draw length. It actually feels like less weight arriving at anchor than getting to it. 

Matt,

Are you using the Borders on your DAS riser?

Borderbows,

I have a DAS that is begging for a set of your limbs on, I currently have a set of stock medium length limbs making a 64" bow. My question would be would it make sense for me to go to 66" bow with HEX limbs with a deflection point just before my draw of 29.5" ? 

I can buy the bushings and use the Border limbs on my Dalaa, what better place to get an answer than the source?

Great info here and thanks to everyone for educating me on the this subject.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Matt,

You are saying the deflection point on the HEX BB2 at your long draw feels like a relief, or a minor let off feel. This graph shows them start to climb in a longer draw length?

Border, liked your page on Facebook..good info there as well. 

View attachment 1531208


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

JP ... i wanna get one of those ball targets !

cool review , thanks for posting .....


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

benofthehood said:


> JP ... i wanna get one of those ball targets !
> 
> cool review , thanks for posting .....


Thank you


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Different bowyers im sure will have different thoughts on where the smoothness point on the draw should be.
but in my view any bowyer that is only using UD materials is simply limited in how far they can get the smoothness point. and this will limit their marketting.
for example the smoothest point on a Samick, W&W and hoyt geometry limb is about 21" while the smoothest point that we know of sits around (for the same length of limb) 26" on ILF limbs.

Theye are graphs floating around that show conventional limbs and their smoothness vs Super recurves and thier smoothness. and they apprear as different as chalk and cheese.

to give you an idea of what we are talkig about here, is that the preload bulge on the extremes will finish and start heading into a stack zone at 21" while a super recurve will have a full preload bulge out to 26" giving more energy. as you dont have that dip after 22". its still full at 24".

take that consideration and you will have more stored energy for the lbs held.
then look at working limbs mass, and if both limbs have equal mass then the more energy wins.
so you can check this out by measuring the mass of the limb at both the tip and the limb butt.
lower tip mass = faster reaction to a change in direction.

if you consider that shorter limbs will have less working mass. and that smooth limbs can afford to be shorter.
you will see that the above test hindered one bow.
in our view to get most energy in a bow you need your DFC to head up... then along. no point in having 40lbs at 0.5" you need draw length too.
so if you have an excess of smoothness then you have not gained the energy of draw length.
in the test above one bow was on a 17" riser and one was on a 15" riser. both bows were 60" long.
the smoother bow was also on the shorter riser.
when i say smoother i mean shockingly smoother.
I can proove to you that a meduim limb 70" top end 27" riser bow of 36lbs pulled more pounds increase between 29-30" than a 39lbs meduim super recurve does between 29" and 30" when on a DAS 17" riser making a 60"
so a bow thats 3lbs heavier, and 10" shorter pulled less per inch between 29-30" than its longer rival.
If i remember correctly it was 0.1lbs smoother in that last inch.

so if you wanted a fair test in my view, then both bows should have been 17" risers. and meduim limbs. and then i think the performance difference would have been bigger.


to find the smoothest point on a ILF recurve. pull the bow back and see where the string finaly lifts off the limb. thats where the DFC preload changes from convex to concaved. and concaved energy is hollow and not as good.




if you buy a set of limbs for a DAS riser we put our own DAS bushes in them.
If you buy ILF limbs you get ILF dovetails. (we can ship both with a set of limbs)

with a 29.5" draw length (to the back of the bow and not the throat of the grip) on a 17" riser i would choose longs. 
this would give better string angles, for a clean release.
If on a 21" riser or longer, id be tempted to head for meduims. Smoothness is not a problem. and the shorter limb will help pick up a bit of speed.

extra smooth limbs come alive when pulled to the upper end of the conventional remit for that limb length.
(they are designed for that draw length remit)

does that help answer your questions.





Mo0se said:


> Ok so now you've all piqued my interest.. The deflection point, I think I understand and so now here is the question. For someone with a 29+ draw which is myself.. I've found that my wife's bow actually feels like the deflection point is just before I reach anchor, meaning the resistance is not more or increased (which is expected) in the last inch getting to anchor. It's very comfortable at my draw length. It actually feels like less weight arriving at anchor than getting to it.
> 
> Matt,
> 
> ...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Moose, what that smoothness graph doesnt show, is that the bow tested was 53lbs at 28" 60" in length and on a 17" riser.

so 53lbs sub 2lbs per inch to 29"
infact sub 2lbs from from 20" to 29" which means to get to 53lbs, it had to climb well at the front end. as i said, UP and ALONG.

if ive got the right graph in my head


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