# Closed stance. Pros & cons



## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

Good question. First a point of clarification - Open or closed stance refers to the relationship of the feet to the target line/shooting line; not to the space the feet are apart. 45 degree is definitely a very open stance; I don't believe there is a 45 deree closed stance. A closed stance is one that is 90 degrees _(or close to it)_ to the shooting line & therefore *Zero* degrees _(or close to it)_ to the target. The distance the feet are apart is more a wide or narrow parameter; however, I have observed that many open stance shooters have their feet further apart than closed stance shooters.

As to pro & con; Coach Lee seems to advocate a quite open stance on the KSL website http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/KSLShotCycle/KSLShotCycle-USA.html
To utilize this method the archery must have good flexability & core strength as noted in the two links on this page. http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/NewsLetters/index.html

Getting back to your question (and in my opinion) "*Is it possible that a closed stance may make it easier for an archer to achieve a proper line? *" 
-I like the closed stance for teaching (it is more exact and less variable)
-I find it easier to maintain "in line" form with a closed stance
-Open the stance if string clearence is an issue (this is not a cause/efffect cure, but a coping mechanism to keep a beginner/developing archer shooting; _while they develop better form & hopefully over come the cause - likely flaws in bowhand/bowarm placement_)
-45 degrees seems somewhat extreme for an open stance
-An open (& wider) stance isn't always practical for Field & 3-D, which I also shoot.

In my situation (short/thick build with short neck; moderate flexability; weak core in relation to the rest of the body; _over 50 - too old to change?_) & liking to keep my draw line straight & close to the bow arm. I prefer a closed stance (10 degrees open at the most), with some modification. I start my draw with more weight on my left foot. Right toe is turned out slightly _(this helps me get right elbow around & more in line - something that I borrowed from Golf - a tip for aging/less-flexable playes to facilitate more shoulder turn.)_ This may be more psychological than physiological, but it works for me.

Most important thing, as with all aspects of form, is to make sure the stance is *consistant*. It is the foundation of the shot.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Old Hoyt,

Going to respectfully disagree with you a bit. My understanding (and take on this) is what you are describing as closed is in fact a Neutral Stance while a true Closed Stance goes beyond 90 degrees away from the target (open being toward the target).

I say this both from reading the above description in a couple books and because I shoot with the Closed Stance I describe it. And to answer midwayarcherywi's other question, it does help me get into alignment. I have a major low back injury (4 herniated lumbar discs) and the only way I can get the proper "Power Triangle" alignment is to start from a slightly closed stance. Neutral will work but it's not as consistant. I find the Open Stance, and the attendant twist of the torso to get proper alignment not only counter productive but actually painful. That's my personal problem and not applicable to most others but it illustrates the point concerning a closed stance and proper alignment.

I believe it's in McKinney's The Simple Art of Winning that he illustrates a "closed" stance as I am talking about it.

YMMV,
Dave


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Grant makes an excellent point. I have noticed that open stand is used more outside than indoors. Indoors I switch to closed stand, no wind so don't need the extra things to counter wind.
I also teach closed stand to beginners. It's easier to learn and gives them consistency. At higher level I teach KSL stand method. This stand is the same as some martial arts stand. Alignment is a issue and it's hard for beginners to get it right. I did notice that people who have done martial arts naturally take the KSL stand.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I cannot think of any coaches who advocate a truly closed stance. A neutral or straight stance is one where both toes are pointed in a right angle from the line to the target.-For a RH shooter-the toes would be pointed at 3 Oclock if the target is at twelve. Open would be towards 2.30 to 1.30 (the Old Mckinney stance of years ago) a closed stance would the the toes pointed at say 4 oclock


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

*Oops*

:mg:My bad on the terminology.....I haven't read many of the newer books and I guess what is refered to as *neutral* today was *closed* in earlier times (& as Jim mentioned - truly "closed" beyond 90 degrees was unheard of.)

Dave, I hear you on the discomfort with the "Twist" in the open stance. When I got back into archery a few years, I was using a slightly closed stance indoors to get in line. As I don't have much of a "triangle" (prefering to turn my stiff neck as far as I can towards the target & draw close to the bow arm), I did have clearance problems. I got into better shape reverting back to neutral/slightly open. Then I became aware of the turned out toe move from my golfing buddies which seemd to work best for me.:wink:

VinZ, after a recent coaching clinic, I spent a few sessions at the club observing stance with our beginner / developing archers. Even our youngest & somewhat "hyper" kids that used a neutral stance were more consistant throughout the round. The point about the martial arts background also seems to hold true with those wh have done gymnastics or raquet sports as well.

Sorry midwayarcherywi, that I mis-interperted your question based my terninology.


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

One additional bit of clarification. When Coach Lee talks about an open, neutral, or closed stance, it isn't the feet position that establishes it. It is based the archers hip orientation. If the target side foot is at a 45 degree angle to the shooting line but the body is rotated such that the hips are parallel to the line, he calls that a neutral stance. To be open, the KSL way, the hips have to be even with or very close to the same orientation as the feet. In other words, in the above example, the hips would also have to be at a 45 degree angle as well for the stance to be open. 

Terry


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

I watched a woman shoot yesterday. She is right handed, and her hips were square to the shooting line, but her left foot was in front of her right foot. In other words, for a line drawn perpendicular to the shooting line, her left toes were on the right side of that line, while her right toes were on the left side of that line, facing the target. I was trying to help her, and called it her "attitude" stance. It is just how she is comfortable shooting. By the way, she is involved in karate also.

I know of one other person who uses the same stance. This person is a good shooter, but quit JOAD because of the demands she shoot from an uncomfortable KSL stance.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Steve N said:


> I watched a woman shoot yesterday. She is right handed, and her hips were square to the shooting line, but her left foot was in front of her right foot. In other words, for a line drawn perpendicular to the shooting line, her left toes were on the right side of that line, while her right toes were on the left side of that line, facing the target. I was trying to help her, and called it her "attitude" stance. It is just how she is comfortable shooting. By the way, she is involved in karate also.
> 
> I know of one other person who uses the same stance. This person is a good shooter, but quit JOAD because of the demands she shoot from an uncomfortable KSL stance.



who was that-I didn't know that the KSL orthodoxy had reached Cleveland yet. BTW Don Rabska-who was one of the first and strongest advocates of the BEST System advocates neutral stances for beginners.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Old Hoyt. Of course you are correct about the angle. It is 135 degrees with the left foot hip orientation at around 2 o'clock vs, an open hip and left foot orientation of about 10 o'clock for the open stance. I would like to hear experiences of teaching and using a closed stance.
I prefer to stay away from picking on a particular style. Rather, I would like an open discussion as to why the mechanics of a particular stance may facilitate shooting better. The closed stance really gets glossed over in discussions, with no real reason given as to why one should not adopt it.
I just sat down with a very distinguished face in archery and that person has never heard a good reason for not shooting in this manner. For him it is a matter of science. For me, my concerns are more practical. Can it and does it work??


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

*Seems to work for Barebow*

By Dave's posting it seems to be working well for him.
As I stated, I had some success with it (in a mild fashion), but encountered clearance problems. I have not coached anyone using it, but we have a barebow/trad shooter from a close by club who uses it well. He is very consistant in his form, but shoots very quickly, holding only for about a second. He does not string walk, but he may be changing anchor - hard to tell without videoing him.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I shoot with what I suppose you would call an extreme closed stance. Hips are pointed to the right of the target (I'm right handed) and right foot is at least 6 inches behind left foot. Why? I'm 69 and I've tried the so called classical open stance and it kills me muscular wise to maintain it.

I got my present stance by coming to full draw, aiming at the target, then closing my eyes and swinging my body right and left and then letting it settle until it felt completely neutral (no strain/tension on any of the trunk/leg muscles). On opening my eyes, I found myself pointing well to the left of the target. I kept repeating the exercise until I arrived at the position such that not only was there no strain/tension but when I opened my eyes, the sights were aligned on the centre of the target, and that position is the stance I currently use.

You've got to go with what works for you and to hell what the book/coach says:wink:


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

midwayarcherywi,

My reasoning is as follows: The twist at the waist is painful for me because of the low back problems and in extended shooting sessions becomes debilitating. I find it easier and more comfortable to keep my shoulders in line with my feet, consequently I position my left foot slightly in front of the right, at about 1 O'Clock. This gets my shoulders in line with the bow arm, forming that "Power Triangle" between the bow arm/shoulder line and the arrow/drawing forearm line.

As for stability, I have shot in very strong winds the last two weekends. I find the wind's effect on the bow and bow arm is greater than on my torso so I don't see a down side to this stance, even in the wind.

Dave


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

Tom and Dave....maybe its the thing for us older guys.
Just about to leave for the indoor range (Ugh- but its turned wintery here again) I'm going to try a bit more closed stance and will report back later.

Tom - you said it: 
"*You've got to go with what works for you and to hell what the book/coach says." *
But even better when you know "WHY" you are doing it.


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## yeeha (Nov 23, 2007)

*Closed*

HI Gabe this is Bob i Use a Closed because it keeps me from drifting and because of my back sugery


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## yeeha (Nov 23, 2007)

Whit a open stance i drift but more that that it very hard on my back


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Interesting! It would seem a closed stance may well be the choice of the old and the damaged. (smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Well, I'm 50 but not infirmed. In fact, I'm fairly flexible for an old duffer. I've shot with a slightly open stance for decades and dont have a problem with it, physically. I've been told that I may be able to get a deeper line with a slightly closed stance.
Now I'm thinking to myself, why wouldn't every archer want to get in line or behind the line? If a closed stance can help getting there, why not?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

M - 

A "deeper line" may not be the best thing, or then again, it might.

Given an individuals' body structure, there a foot/base position that results in a natural horizointal point of aim to the target -that should be the optimal stance for that person. It can be "corrected" left or right by openning or closing the stance. That effect has to be balanced against comfort for the archer as well as any other bodily anomolies he/she may have to deal with. For example a closed stance may help to exagerated the line of extension at anchor, but it may also reduce string clearance to a point that makes the shot impossible. An open stance without a truck twist (IMHO a trunk twsit is a mistake) typically affords less than textbook shoulder alignment, but for some people with a larger midsection it may be necessary. Even differences in shoulder structure may dictate a slight variation in stance.

Most beginning shooters should start with a neutral stance as it's the easiest to reproduce. Their form isn't consistent enough to fine tune. After their form has solidified, it's pretty simple to figure out which stance fits best - and yes "best" can and usually will change throughout a archer's shooting career.

The biggest mistake a coach can make is to force an intermediate or an advanced shooter to use a particular stance because it's in vogue or what someone else is touting as "best". 

Viper1 out.


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

Jim C said:


> who was that-I didn't know that the KSL orthodoxy had reached Cleveland yet. BTW Don Rabska-who was one of the first and strongest advocates of the BEST System advocates neutral stances for beginners.


Sorry, not naming any names. Yes, we're trying to incorporate the BEST methods. But up here in the frozen north, we're a little behind the times.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Steve N said:


> Sorry, not naming any names. Yes, we're trying to incorporate the BEST methods. But up here in the frozen north, we're a little behind the times.


well just don't screw Jonathan Farr up :wink:


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Steve N said:


> But up here in the frozen north, we're a little behind the times.


See Rich Kochert. He has been to KSL week long seminar.


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

Steven Cornell said:


> See Rich Kochert. He has been to KSL week long seminar.


I've learned a lot from both Rich and his wife Connie. Instructing beginners also helped me a lot. I finally decided that I'd try some of the things I kept telling them, and guess what, they worked!

Jonathan is a great kid and a great archer. I won't even offer advice because he's way above my level, and I could only hurt him.


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## l30nsmit (Mar 24, 2021)

Old Hoyt said:


> Good question. First a point of clarification - Open or closed stance refers to the relationship of the feet to the target line/shooting line; not to the space the feet are apart. 45 degree is definitely a very open stance; I don't believe there is a 45 deree closed stance. A closed stance is one that is 90 degrees _(or close to it)_ to the shooting line & therefore *Zero* degrees _(or close to it)_ to the target. The distance the feet are apart is more a wide or narrow parameter; however, I have observed that many open stance shooters have their feet further apart than closed stance shooters.
> 
> As to pro & con; Coach Lee seems to advocate a quite open stance on the KSL website KSL International Archery
> To utilize this method the archery must have good flexability & core strength as noted in the two links on this page. KSL International Archery
> ...


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## l30nsmit (Mar 24, 2021)

Well i am recurve olimpic stille archery entusiast.
Have two sets of arrows- decent onees 3.2 (skylon premiens-tungsten tips). 3.2 are 31 inch draw lenght . 4.2 carbon express 166 are 30.5cm same tiips.
When i shoot to 18-30m i shoot with shorter ones and i take square stance. 
When i shoot 50-70-90 m 
i shoot slightlyclosed stance slightly meaning 91-92 defrees right of target so the lineof sholders is on 70m meter right of target, bow line is on target.
Open stance is not for me.
When shoot square stance to 70m have average 310-320 multiple times. not up.
If i take a little bit closed stance and half inch more draw lenght i can score 320 and up (record 336is my best score on 70m) like ever of 360.
Open stance below 300.
Ehen i shoot square stance wirh same anquer, i have smaller draw lenght, when closed stance 31inch.
So i sopose i is really individual.
Know is nowadays open stance modern, but it noot suit me at any poudage. Tried from 24-42 written strenght.
Shoot with 38 inch written- actual 44 on 31 inch.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Dude this thread is old enough to get a boating license


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## MooseisLoose (11 mo ago)

I've shot closed stance for a long time, and it is easier to get into good alignment. It's probably better if you're older or have physical limitations.

Square/neutral stance has worked okay as well, and I used to hate open stance. But recently I gave it a go and it worked very well, and my groups seemed to improve. The biggest bonus is a shoulder issue I was developing is getting better since with the closed stance you have to reach over and across your body to draw...

Never would've thought I would be using open stance but here I am.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

I have not much to add to what I wrote in THA chapter 4.4 about different stances in 2005, apart from:

NTS cycle, that is similar to original Power Archery cycle, is used mainly on open stance.
Reverse stance, apart being for archers with short forearm, can be helpful also in some specific physical conditions. As a matter of fact, my son was shooting in London and for many years after using reverse stance as of bow shoulder injury he had.


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