# "Acceptable" Pin Float?



## Dave Schmeltz

Okay so I hear all the time..."Trust your shot execution" and "Let it float"...but what does the latter really mean from a target perspective. In other words what is acceptable pin float? I draw a quick 5-Spot center and I'm guessing that the green area is acceptable float (anywhere in this area). The red area is not acceptable...Am I thinking correctly?


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## montigre

Kind of a general question, but.....It really depends on your experience level. 

Most top pros and amateurs would have a float that just circles the X in your diagram. Most competitive intermediate shooters are comfortable letting their reticle/pin swim around in the green area, but are working hard to tighten it up around the X. Novice shooters usually have a float that is pretty much in the green/red areas and are working to get into the green 100% of the time, whereas beginners are happy to have their arrows hit a scoring area. 

It is all subjective--the more you practice well, the tighter and more consistent your groups will become.


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## Dave Schmeltz

montigre said:


> Really depends on your experience level.
> 
> Most top pros and amateurs would have a float that just circles the X in your diagram. Most competitive intermediate shooters are comfortable letting their reticle/pin swim around in the green area, but are working hard to tighten it up around the X. Novice shooters usually have a float that is pretty much in the green/red areas and are working to get into the green 100% of the time, whereas beginners are happy to have their arrows hit a scoring area.
> 
> It is all subjective--the more you practice well, the tighter and more consistent your groups will become.


Excellent explanation, thank you!


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## EPLC

Dave Schmeltz said:


> Okay so I hear all the time..."Trust your shot execution" and "Let it float"...but what does the latter really mean from a target perspective. In other words what is acceptable pin float? I draw a quick 5-Spot center and I'm guessing that the green area is acceptable float (anywhere in this area). The red area is not acceptable...Am I thinking correctly?
> 
> View attachment 2009012


Of course the tighter your range of motion, the easier this game becomes. That said, everybody moves and the more attention you pay to that movement the worst off you will be. In 2002 I developed a sever tremor shooting from the right side. I fought this problem for about 6 years until finally giving up trying to find a solution and switching to LH. During this "fixing" period I actually learned a lot of things including proper form and trusting your shot. Of course this movement impacted my shooting but one of the most important things I learned is that you can still put them in the middle if you pay no attention to the movement... no matter how bad it is. Some are just fortunate and have a very small range of motion, unfortunately I've never been one of them. It must be nice. Eric Griggs once told me to separate the frontend from the backend of your shot and don't let one mess up the other. This was great advise. While you should build your form to try and get as little range of motion as possible, being rock solid is not an absolute for shooting good scores.


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## Mahly

montigre said:


> It is all subjective--*the more you practice well*, the tighter and more consistent your groups will become.


Very key advice there!


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## cbrunson

The important thing to remember is that very little, to no (percieved) pin movement can be acheived. Getting the bow fit correctly, the strength built up to hold it, balance and form are how you get it there. Then comes the shot execution, and mind game.


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## ron w

the issue isn't "trust your execution and let it float",....it's " trust float float and let your execution run". 
it refers to letting the pin/dot float, trusting that the movement is OK to be happening and let the execution run despite the movement. the saying is for those people who have over control their aiming movement by trying to stop it completely that will never happen completely,.... for just a second or so, during the shot you might have a ded still moment, but the majority of shooters experience a constantly moving pin to some degree. the idea is that the movement is actually better than a dead still sight picture, because when the sight picture is dead still, you are forcing that to happen and that will influence to shot's POI.


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## Ned250

Dave Schmeltz said:


> Okay so I hear all the time..."Trust your shot execution" and "Let it float"...but what does the latter really mean from a target perspective. In other words what is acceptable pin float? I draw a quick 5-Spot center and I'm guessing that the green area is acceptable float (anywhere in this area). The red area is not acceptable...Am I thinking correctly?
> 
> View attachment 2009012


That's a highly subjective question... Guys have touched on the individual aspect of this, but the other part is what you're aiming with. Perceived movement is going to change based on your setup. You may be holding a pin that looks like its rock solid on the X, but put an 8x scope in front of you and its going to look like you're dancing all over the place. 

For me, I'm shooting a 6x scope and keep it mostly in the vicinity of the X ring on a 5 spot. Its an instant let down if I see blue inside the ring on my scope. Otherwise, it's all system's go. I gave up trying for that rock solid float and my scores have improved because of that. As soon as I learned to 'let go', I found _it_.

To ron's point - Its shocking how many land in the X when the last thing I remember seeing is the ring floating off of the X.


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## dua lam pa

Which way does the emblem on you stearing wheel face when you make a 48 degree right hand turn at 34 mph ?

You problly could have answered this the first few months you were learningto drive , now , you just make the turn.


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## EPLC

I think this topic is a good one but the subject matter drives me nuts! The statement: "I can hold the pin in the X" makes me even crazier. The only way I can hold on the X is put my bow in my shooting machine... Guess what, in my shooting machine I never miss either. So... if there are folks that can hold on the X (and I'm sure there are) why do they miss? The only way I miss with my shooting machine is when I'm not on the X. BTW, I love this Blue X quote...

"...train your mind to accept sight movement 
and not stop your execution." Blue X


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> BTW, I love this Blue X quote...
> 
> "...train your mind to accept sight movement
> and not stop your execution." Blue X


It is a good quote.

The untold story is; for an intermediate shooter a lot more sight pin movement is caused by anticipation anxiety than an inability to hold steady. Therefore in order to get a more solid "hold" you have to do just exactly what you quoted from Blue-X. When you do this your hold will improve over time because there will be less anxiety. Very simple. 

Said in another way......a great deal of your pin movement is caused by a gap in the 3 or 4 inch connection between your release hand and your brain. Work on that gap and your hold will improve.


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## Blue X

EPLC said:


> I think this topic is a good one but the subject matter drives me nuts! The statement: "I can hold the pin in the X" makes me even crazier. The only way I can hold on the X is put my bow in my shooting machine... Guess what, in my shooting machine I never miss either. So... if there are folks that can hold on the X (and I'm sure there are) why do they miss? The only way I miss with my shooting machine is when I'm not on the X. BTW, I love this Blue X quote...
> 
> "...train your mind to accept sight movement
> and not stop your execution." Blue X


Im glad you like my quote, you can use it any time you wish, just mail me 50% royalties if you make money on it!

Ill start with my sight movement. At 10 yds I see my sight pretty much stay in the ten on a vegas face. At 20 yrds I see it near the middle. I still see movement if i watch for movement. Id say its barely bigger than the ten. Things I do to see less movement, pull the sight in to about 5", 3X scope with a big dot. Dot barely smaller than the ten at 10 yds and barely smaller than the yellow at 20yds. these things shrink perceived movement but its still there. 

Lets look at 2 issues. Refresh rate, some archers have slow refresh rates. The movement is there but for some reason they cant see it. They come here for coaching and they say they see no sight movement. I watch their stabilizer moving around bigger than mine but for some reason their mind dont refresh as often and they say they have no sight movement. To which I say great and they all go on to make good shooters with few problems. 

Camera shutter- Shutter speed dictates how much of a time frame you see. when we were trigger shooting when we first started we had a quick shutter speed. For that moment the sight was perceived to be still and wham. People with no anticipations can make this look good. for most you know where it will end up. 
When learning back tension and hinge shooting we see a slow shutter speed. A look across 4-6 seconds of time at full draw in the aim. You know that will produce seeing movement for everyone. 

Now for what I see when I shoot. First I try to get on the x and get it the first time thru. No need to let it go away and then get it back. I try to train to get my release to fire within the first two seconds after I see my sight in the middle of the target. As soon as I see my target in my scope, my focus goes straight 100% into keeping tension in my tricep muscle. This pulls my conscious mind away from my sight and separates what I see and what I do and what Im thinking because 100% is on something else is 0% aiming and 0% thinking for the last 2 seconds or less of my shot. Because I am focused on something other than the target, I do not see sight movement for the 2 seconds Im in the final seconds of my shot. Im sure its there but I dont see it. I see my sight in the middle with a slow refresh rate with this mental plan. 

A mental plan its supposed to fill up your whole conscious mind and leave aiming and execution subconscious. If you ask me, I would say I do have sight movement but I dont pay attn to it or dont see it. 

Age old question, is aiming conscious or subconscious. Well it is subconscious with a built in conscious override. At any time it gets out of tolerance it will alert your eyes and you can let down. Some people describe it as looking thru sight movement, some say dont pay attn to it. I say keep your conscious mind to busy to care and if you get flag from your eyes let down. 

There is no way to use any mental plan until after shot sequence and form and bow is set up to produce satisfactory sight pattern. 

Heres you another quote, "You cant sneak up on yourself" Neither can you have confidence in bad form or shot sequence or equipment. So first build a set up that will produce a steady aim then learn a mental plan to keep you conscious mind busy for the last two seconds of your shot.

Blue X


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## N7709K

If it leaves big 10 at 18m it's too much- if it's leaves 10 at 50m it's getting to be a bit much.

You can practice all you want but if you don't tune and adjust to bring your hold and float in line you won't ever get the level that you want


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## ArcherXXX300

Good info here. I've been asked by friends and coaches what my sight pin is doing...I can't ever really say or describe my float, for awhile it was dropping out of the bottom and IDK why but things have changed, bows, releases etc it's all changed. Lately with my latest and hopefully longest kept and shot setup (I've changed too much stuff in the last year)...The pin goes in the middle, have a 5X lens extended 2 dots from full extension (Achieve carbon bar 6") .019" pin, and if I'm having a good day I see very little movement for a few seconds, when I tense up and try to hold rock solid it gets worse, but sometimes it sits there and I see no perceived movement other than it's in the black dot, or the white dot and it appears to be somewhat centered and the shot breaks on its own....I think I'm shooting well for only competing a year but I'm a perfectionist....its good and bad.

Interesting fact here though is I can't tell you where my pin is when the shot breaks....if I was to shoot a shot and it hit the X and you asked me to point on a target where my pin was I couldn't legitimately say that it was in the X....though it may have been I really don't know. I put the pin in the middle and focus on the center and let the release happen.


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## MiniJCW

Blue X said:


> _edit_
> Now for what I see when I shoot. First I try to get on the x and get it the first time thru. No need to let it go away and then get it back. I try to train to get my release to fire within the first two seconds after I see my sight in the middle of the target. As soon as I see my target in my scope, *my focus goes straight 100% into keeping tension in my tricep muscle*. This pulls my conscious mind away from my sight and separates what I see and what I do and what Im thinking because 100% is on something else is 0% aiming and 0% thinking for the last 2 seconds or less of my shot. Because I am focused on something other than the target, I do not see sight movement for the 2 seconds Im in the final seconds of my shot. Im sure its there but I dont see it. I see my sight in the middle with a slow refresh rate with this mental plan.
> _edit_
> 
> 
> Blue X


I really like this bit ^ ^ ^, i have been working on my BT execution for a while now, and have just been pulled up by my coach as he could see that i was trying to roll my hand through the release and break the shot off. He has told me i was cheating my release and needed to change my technique (mumble mumble and a few curse words under my breath). 
So my coach has had me relaxing my release hand and using my back to fire the release instead of rolling my fingers through the release. I have always held the draw in my back muscles due to me shooting spiral cams, therefore, if i get lazy they try to fire me through the shoot through riser window. I did struggled with this idea of firing the release with my back to begin with as i seemed to build up a lot of tension through my upper torso. Which in turn caused a whole lot of shake and movement no sight picture or float lots of frustration and mean words under my breath at my coach. 
BUT since i have discovered that if i imagine a hook on my release elbow, and i am trying to pull that elbow backwards using the hook (straight back) through the shot i have found that the shot goes off with ease. I only switch to my imaginary hook on elbow once i have seen the sight picture i want but from then on i cant tell you where the dot in my scope is because i have all focus on the hook on my elbow. The result in grouping so far at 20m gives me 11 arrows all touching.
This has made an incredible difference to my grouping, it has taken some time to get it working and i still struggle with having a little too much tension in my release hand at times. I still have some ways to go with getting this new way right but i am seeing improvement.
Thank you Blue X for your information with your tricep muscle technique, if my hook breaks down i will give this a go.


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## aread

Blue X said:


> Heres you another quote, "You cant sneak up on yourself" Neither can you have confidence in bad form or shot sequence or equipment. So first build a set up that will produce a steady aim then learn a mental plan to keep you conscious mind busy for the last two seconds of your shot.
> 
> Blue X


I like this quote. 

If I watch the float and try to keep it on the X, I'm either going to punch the release or anticipate the shot. Either will usually end up with a bad shot. One of the hardest things I've had to learn is to trust the float and ingrain a consistent follow through. Still not 100% there, but it's getting better.

Another quote from a pretty good shooter, "If you even notice the float, you aren't focusing hard enough on the X." I'm not sure this is 100% accurate, but it's a pretty good place to start.

Allen


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> You can practice all you want but if you don't tune and adjust to bring your hold and float in line you won't ever get the level that you want


Suggestions on how to achieve this?


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## SonnyThomas

pardon if I didn't see.... Large size of pin or dot can cut down on perceived movement - steady things up a bit. IE, what wasn't acceptable becomes gooder


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## Rick!

N7709K said:


> You can practice all you want but if you don't tune and adjust to bring your hold and float in line you won't ever get the level that you want





EPLC said:


> Suggestions on how to achieve this?


This entails most tuning techniques that typically aren 't discussed in this forum.

Bow fit is paramount. 
Form is paramount.
Breathing was just discussed.
Knowing how to stab up your rig is huge. 
Willingness to keep a log of changes is helpful. 
Willingness to adjust a half twist 5 times in a session is necessary. (A half twist each way, returning to zero each time and then using the most positive move.)
Not being satisfied with your current float is important.
Knowing when to ditch the 6X and go back to 4X is important.
Being an OCD Type A is a detriment.
All these boring and tedious items will lend themselves to providing the experience and knowledge to generate your smallest float so you can concentrate on "focus".

I still want to know how many arrows of perfect practice it might take to reach a level where it only takes 3-30 arrows per session to stay "good."

YMMV


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I think this topic is a good one but the subject matter drives me nuts! The statement: "I can hold the pin in the X" makes me even crazier. The only way I can hold on the X is put my bow in my shooting machine... Guess what, in my shooting machine I never miss either. *So... if there are folks that can hold on the X (and I'm sure there are) why do they miss?* The only way I miss with my shooting machine is when I'm not on the X. BTW, I love this Blue X quote...
> 
> "...train your mind to accept sight movement
> and not stop your execution." Blue X


They miss because one of the many things that can go wrong does. The mixed advice on this subject keeps many in the dark. The best way is to sort it out for yourself. I don't do the relax and trust very well. I can do it 9 out of ten ends and be golden, but to get ten out of ten, I have to focus on every shot and execute evrything correctly from front to back end. If I don't I will get lazy on one shot with out realizing it until it fires.


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## dua lam pa

Rick! said:


> This entails most tuning techniques that typically aren 't discussed in this forum.
> 
> 
> I still want to know how many arrows of perfect practice it might take to reach a level where it only takes 3-30 arrows per session to stay "good."
> 
> YMMV


 I shot with a guy last season who just walked thru the door ,I think he was with his father, who latter vouched for him as well, he said he had not touched his bow in 2 solid years. he sighetd in with the practice shots. shot a 9, 10 , 10 on his first end , then 10 , X , X - finished with a 449 46X - Turned out He was a pro Hoyt Shooter and a Vegas winner.
About the 6 or 7th end he just smilled and said " Its like riding a bike , you dont forget " 


"If you want to be the greatest shooter in the world, there are two things you have to do,"

"Number one is shoot the ball correctly with correct shooting form.

"The second part is why nobody wants to be the greatest anymore: You have to shoot it more times than anybody else the correct way."


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## N7709K

Despart by chance?

Shoot 100k or so arrows in 3 seasons or less an it doesn't take much to keep at your average


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## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> Despart by chance?
> 
> Shoot 100k or so arrows in 3 seasons or less an it doesn't take much to keep at your average


nope 
pmed ya


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## N7709K

EPLC said:


> Suggestions on how to achieve this?


throw out that your DL is what it is and that its correct; as you progress as a shooter your DL will change, as you approach shooting different faces in competition at a high level your DL will change... when you get to vegas and your bow has been banged up during the flight DL will change to get it putting arrows in the middle again. 

your float is more or less governed by three things: the bow setup, your form, and bars. A single one of these can only do so much to bring float to where it should be; if you tune bars you need to have solid form and make the needed DL adjustments for it to be effective- if your form and shot aren't consistent the time and effort put into tuning bars would be better used elsewhere. Holding weight is your friend; 65% letoff at the most, but your hold will improve the closer you get to 50%... and so will your shot and form as the back becomes engaged sooner and stays engaged. 

blank bale and close games to the point where your shot happens; you no longer think about making the release fire. when you get the release to a point where it happens, then you can address float and bring your dot movement into the correct level for the face and situation you are shooting. If you have to work on getting the shot to go it doesn't matter how the dot moves; the shot isn't the same each time. 

pick one release and learn the damn thing correctly; after you have one down, then play all you want. it took a little custom work to get the most out of my ht pro, but the results speak for themselves; as does how my hold has responded.

truth of it is this- you need to be able to shoot and shoot well to get the most out of your equip and tune for the most out of your gear. If you can put 10 shots in the same hole consistently its much easier to tell if the ones that are out are you or an issue with gear... when it comes to float; changing DL a twist, a half twist, won't make any noticeable difference if you aren't at that point in your shooting. When i put three twists in and an extra oz or two out front it changes the dynamics of my shot, how my bow holds and reacts, and how my setup will score... the same cannot be said for every shooter in this thread or forum because they aren't at that level yet.


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## Padgett

I really enjoyed the way you wrote the last response n7709k, everything you touched on was easy for me to relate to and agree with.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> throw out that your DL is what it is and that its correct; as you progress as a shooter your DL will change, as you approach shooting different faces in competition at a high level your DL will change... when you get to vegas and your bow has been banged up during the flight DL will change to get it putting arrows in the middle again.
> 
> your float is more or less governed by three things: the bow setup, your form, and bars. A single one of these can only do so much to bring float to where it should be; if you tune bars you need to have solid form and make the needed DL adjustments for it to be effective- if your form and shot aren't consistent the time and effort put into tuning bars would be better used elsewhere. Holding weight is your friend; 65% letoff at the most, but your hold will improve the closer you get to 50%... and so will your shot and form as the back becomes engaged sooner and stays engaged.
> 
> blank bale and close games to the point where your shot happens; you no longer think about making the release fire. when you get the release to a point where it happens, then you can address float and bring your dot movement into the correct level for the face and situation you are shooting. If you have to work on getting the shot to go it doesn't matter how the dot moves; the shot isn't the same each time.
> 
> pick one release and learn the damn thing correctly; after you have one down, then play all you want. it took a little custom work to get the most out of my ht pro, but the results speak for themselves; as does how my hold has responded.
> 
> truth of it is this- you need to be able to shoot and shoot well to get the most out of your equip and tune for the most out of your gear. If you can put 10 shots in the same hole consistently its much easier to tell if the ones that are out are you or an issue with gear... when it comes to float; changing DL a twist, a half twist, won't make any noticeable difference if you aren't at that point in your shooting. When i put three twists in and an extra oz or two out front it changes the dynamics of my shot, how my bow holds and reacts, and how my setup will score... the same cannot be said for every shooter in this thread or forum because they aren't at that level yet.


You are absolutely correct. Form, Bow Setup and "Bars" are a big part of the system... Get these right and they will certainly will have an impact on pin movement. But, is "acceptable pin movement" something we "do", or is it something that "happens" as a result of the 3 things you mentioned and other factors such as confidence and direction of focus. For me, the biggest contributor to holding steady is the ability to "not" hold steady. In other words, let it happen, vs. make it happen. For me, the Terry Wunderle school of thought makes me the steadiest. Develop a shot process that works, focus on making the best possible shot using that process and pull the wheels off the bow... and don't over aim.


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## N7709K

Hold and confidence go hand in hand- if you know your dot won't move it's easier to put an arrow in the middle; when you know you are gonna put one in the middle the dot doesn't move because you aren't being careful. Making the dot sit isn't a symptom of weak hold or too much float but more one of incomplete mastery of your chosen shot process.

If you trust your shot, truly trust it, it doesn't matter what your dot does your shot breaks the same each time and prints behind the dot. When you trust it distance of practice no longer matter and to a lesser degree amount as well. If you don't trust it you play careful; you shoot careful and "try" to put each arrow into the x.. Things get tense, shots start to hang up, the flow leaves. I don't trust my float, I trust my shot- there isn't a point to trusting my float, it doesn't harbor the control as to where the arrow will hit as the shot has. 

Dot goes in the middle, shot breaks, go count x's... All there is to it


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## Labs

N7709K said:


> Hold and confidence go hand in hand- if you know your dot won't move it's easier to put an arrow in the middle; when you know you are gonna put one in the middle the dot doesn't move because you aren't being careful. Making the dot sit isn't a symptom of weak hold or too much float but more one of incomplete mastery of your chosen shot process.
> 
> If you trust your shot, truly trust it, it doesn't matter what your dot does your shot breaks the same each time and prints behind the dot. When you trust it distance of practice no longer matter and to a lesser degree amount as well. If you don't trust it you play careful; you shoot careful and "try" to put each arrow into the x.. Things get tense, shots start to hang up, the flow leaves. I don't trust my float, I trust my shot- there isn't a point to trusting my float, it doesn't harbor the control as to where the arrow will hit as the shot has.
> 
> Dot goes in the middle, shot breaks, go count x's... All there is to it


I can relate with what Jacob has said above, I was there for about 3 weeks this summer...in a zone, I knew my shots were going to hit right where I was looking, process ran smoothly, confidence was high and everything just felt right. Unfortunately, due to a brief tick borne illness, I lost some strength and practice time since then and the fact that I am only a "greenhorn" at this game...I have not gotten back to that "zone" since then. It's been frustrating but the fact that I know this "zone" is attainable does help with my confidence and desire to get it back...just getting there is now the battle I face...


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## Padgett

Holy crap, the post by n7709k is beyond valuable. This is the whole goal of my personal shooting right now and he is so right, in fact I am going to read it again right now.


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## kenn1320

Am I the only one who can hold steady till I commit and start pulling? Seems when I induce extra muscles my float shakes like crazy. Could this be anxiety, cause yes I have TP issues. Also I see mention of larger pin, but if I cover my target my focus turns to the pin and that makes things worse.


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## Lazarus

kenn1320.....no, you're not the only one. Fix that one issue and you're probably going to really excel. And it's very fixable. In a nutshell, ya just gotta trust yourself.


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## Pkeller

Blue X said:


> Im glad you like my quote, you can use it any time you wish, just mail me 50% royalties if you make money on it!
> 
> Ill start with my sight movement. At 10 yds I see my sight pretty much stay in the ten on a vegas face. At 20 yrds I see it near the middle. I still see movement if i watch for movement. Id say its barely bigger than the ten. Things I do to see less movement, pull the sight in to about 5", 3X scope with a big dot. Dot barely smaller than the ten at 10 yds and barely smaller than the yellow at 20yds. these things shrink perceived movement but its still there.
> 
> Lets look at 2 issues. Refresh rate, some archers have slow refresh rates. The movement is there but for some reason they cant see it. They come here for coaching and they say they see no sight movement. I watch their stabilizer moving around bigger than mine but for some reason their mind dont refresh as often and they say they have no sight movement. To which I say great and they all go on to make good shooters with few problems.
> 
> Camera shutter- Shutter speed dictates how much of a time frame you see. when we were trigger shooting when we first started we had a quick shutter speed. For that moment the sight was perceived to be still and wham. People with no anticipations can make this look good. for most you know where it will end up.
> When learning back tension and hinge shooting we see a slow shutter speed. A look across 4-6 seconds of time at full draw in the aim. You know that will produce seeing movement for everyone.
> 
> Now for what I see when I shoot. First I try to get on the x and get it the first time thru. No need to let it go away and then get it back. I try to train to get my release to fire within the first two seconds after I see my sight in the middle of the target. As soon as I see my target in my scope, my focus goes straight 100% into keeping tension in my tricep muscle. This pulls my conscious mind away from my sight and separates what I see and what I do and what Im thinking because 100% is on something else is 0% aiming and 0% thinking for the last 2 seconds or less of my shot. Because I am focused on something other than the target, I do not see sight movement for the 2 seconds Im in the final seconds of my shot. Im sure its there but I dont see it. I see my sight in the middle with a slow refresh rate with this mental plan.
> 
> A mental plan its supposed to fill up your whole conscious mind and leave aiming and execution subconscious. If you ask me, I would say I do have sight movement but I dont pay attn to it or dont see it.
> 
> Age old question, is aiming conscious or subconscious. Well it is subconscious with a built in conscious override. At any time it gets out of tolerance it will alert your eyes and you can let down. Some people describe it as looking thru sight movement, some say dont pay attn to it. I say keep your conscious mind to busy to care and if you get flag from your eyes let down.
> 
> There is no way to use any mental plan until after shot sequence and form and bow is set up to produce satisfactory sight pattern.
> 
> Heres you another quote, "You cant sneak up on yourself" Neither can you have confidence in bad form or shot sequence or equipment. So first build a set up that will produce a steady aim then learn a mental plan to keep you conscious mind busy for the last two seconds of your shot.
> 
> Blue X


Thats some good stuff right there


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## Bees

Blue X said:


> Im glad you like my quote, you can use it any time you wish, just mail me 50% royalties if you make money on it!
> 
> Ill start with my sight movement. At 10 yds I see my sight pretty much stay in the ten on a vegas face. At 20 yrds I see it near the middle. I still see movement if i watch for movement. Id say its barely bigger than the ten. Things I do to see less movement, pull the sight in to about 5", 3X scope with a big dot. Dot barely smaller than the ten at 10 yds and barely smaller than the yellow at 20yds. these things shrink perceived movement but its still there.
> 
> Lets look at 2 issues. Refresh rate, some archers have slow refresh rates. The movement is there but for some reason they cant see it. They come here for coaching and they say they see no sight movement. I watch their stabilizer moving around bigger than mine but for some reason their mind dont refresh as often and they say they have no sight movement. To which I say great and they all go on to make good shooters with few problems.
> 
> Camera shutter- Shutter speed dictates how much of a time frame you see. when we were trigger shooting when we first started we had a quick shutter speed. For that moment the sight was perceived to be still and wham. People with no anticipations can make this look good. for most you know where it will end up.
> When learning back tension and hinge shooting we see a slow shutter speed. A look across 4-6 seconds of time at full draw in the aim. You know that will produce seeing movement for everyone.
> 
> Now for what I see when I shoot. First I try to get on the x and get it the first time thru. No need to let it go away and then get it back. I try to train to get my release to fire within the first two seconds after I see my sight in the middle of the target. As soon as I see my target in my scope, my focus goes straight 100% into keeping tension in my tricep muscle. This pulls my conscious mind away from my sight and separates what I see and what I do and what Im thinking because 100% is on something else is 0% aiming and 0% thinking for the last 2 seconds or less of my shot. Because I am focused on something other than the target, I do not see sight movement for the 2 seconds Im in the final seconds of my shot. Im sure its there but I dont see it. I see my sight in the middle with a slow refresh rate with this mental plan.
> 
> A mental plan its supposed to fill up your whole conscious mind and leave aiming and execution subconscious. If you ask me, I would say I do have sight movement but I dont pay attn to it or dont see it.
> 
> Age old question, is aiming conscious or subconscious. Well it is subconscious with a built in conscious override. At any time it gets out of tolerance it will alert your eyes and you can let down. Some people describe it as looking thru sight movement, some say dont pay attn to it. I say keep your conscious mind to busy to care and if you get flag from your eyes let down.
> 
> There is no way to use any mental plan until after shot sequence and form and bow is set up to produce satisfactory sight pattern.
> 
> Heres you another quote, "You cant sneak up on yourself" Neither can you have confidence in bad form or shot sequence or equipment. So first build a set up that will produce a steady aim then learn a mental plan to keep you conscious mind busy for the last two seconds of your shot.
> 
> Blue X


Which tricep, bow arm or release arm?


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## SonnyThomas

Bees said:


> Which tricep, bow arm or release arm?


Well, I would say bow arm, but not only the triceps. Have your bow arm hurt and you'll find tension is also in the bicep.


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## EPLC

Here's my solution to "acceptable" pin float... just get rid of it. These two templates have holes that measure 5/8" and 3/4" over a 6X lens. I actually find the 3/4" produces the tighter groups of the two. Just look through the hole and stare at the X... works like magic.


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## Padgett

I mentioned this on another thread when I was talking to a guy about target panic, just two days ago I went into the shop to shoot some indoor and I was disappointed that my float was simply not that good. I didn't feel right because of my diet that I am on and I felt jittery or something, I warmed up for 10 minutes and then shot a vegas round.

My only goal for the shooting that day was to run a smooth firing engine and to start it as soon as my pin came over to the x, so that is what I did and after a hour and a half of shooting I had shot a nice and easy 300 22x vegas round and I didn't miss any warm up shots and then I did something I am even more cool. I had had a few guys ask about shooting without a thumb peg so I took off the thumb peg on my backspin and I shot about 5 arrows at 3 feet to get a preliminary speed for it and then I went back and started shooting the vegas target. After another 25 minutes of shooting I still hadn't missed and I was still shooting with that same crappy float.

To me these types of days are starting to become more and more commonplace because I have became a different shooter than I was in the past, In the past I might have had a few awesome days but they were backed up by very poor days. That is because I was in a constant battle with my shooting to force it to perform, if my release wouldn't fire then I made it fire. If my float was weird then I made it better by forcing my hand to be perfectly still. I simply have gotten past these really poor mental approaches and now my shooting is simply something different. This wednesday when I had this nice day of shooting I was reminded of what float really is:

FLOAT: 

Float is the downloaded google app inside your brain that sends the pin to the center of the x, the problem is that the bow has momentum because it is moving and the pin passes right by the x and then the aiming app stops the bow from traveling in that direction and sends it right back across the center of the x over and over and over. 

Now once you get this in your head what float really is and you truly allow yourself to shoot with your float what you are going to realize is that the pin is inside the x about 98% to 96% of the time on most days. What do I mean by these %'s , I mean that your pin is traveling across the 5-spot x for a distance a little over a inch and that is the 96 ti 98 %. Your pin is on the edge or slightly outside the x about a 1/8 inch for only a split second and then it is traveling back across the x on its way to the center and then it is on its way to the other edge of the x and will stop on the edge or slightly outside of the x just like it did on the other side. So for me on a freaking good day my pin floats within the x the entire time and never goes outside the x, on a poor float day my pin is outside the x on both sides slightly every shot.

Now what does this mean, If I am floating inside the x 100% of the time I am going to have the kind of day where I have absolutely no chance of dropping a x and I can produce hundreds of x's in a row. On a day where I am floating at 98% I might drop one x that day after 100 shots because my hinge fired when I was on the edge, the dropping of that x has nothing do do with me sucking and it has nothing to do with my firing engine. It has everything to do with the hinge firing when the pin was on the edge and nothing else.

I strongly suggest that you guys read this a couple times if you are struggling and really take a look at your aiming and floating, there is a whole lot of awesome shooting to experience once you let go of what you think floating and shooting are and look at it differently. For me it took coaching people here on archery talk to have my "WOW MOMENT" I can still remember the first day that I actually shot with my true float for the first time and it totally scared me to death. I simply couldn't believe I was hitting the center of the x when my pin seemed like it was no where near the center, the fact is I had so many control issues ingrained that I couldn't even begin to see the truth. After months of talking about it here on archery talk I finally came to terms with things and now I am able to discuss them here.

If any of you want to discuss this stuff tied to a shooting summary of your own I don't mind just give me a pm with a shooting summary of your feeling on your float and firing engine and other things and I will dig in.


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## N7709K

i wouldn't label float as the subconscious putting the dot in the middle; that has more to do with aiming and the inherent ability to want to center objects upon one another than actual float. Float is more about the dot never sitting still. Your dot has a pattern; it moves in the same path, the same way, every time you setup the same good shot. For me my dot traces an elliptical path from 12 to 6; but it doesn't leave big 10...(talking about the average strings of decent shots here; perfect shots have a different float as do bad shots) There isn't a left to right wiggle, there isn't a low bob(inner face is a little bit of a different story and float), the dot just does its thing. After a couple ends the dot fades into the established hole in the target; at that point what you can get away with becomes much more. 

If your dot sits good for 98% of the time you need to address why it doesn't for 2%; the 98% doesn't need to be looked at, it is working. 2% of shot doesn't seem like much, but that is what separates podium finishes and going home empty. Looking at your float with a left/right; it gives a couple places to look and a few things to address about as to why there is a left/right and that percentage will probably go down and those key points are addressed. When it comes down to it after a point you don't "know" where you dot is as the shot breaks but you have an idea as to whether or not it is printing behind the dot.


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## EPLC

I find these discussions of dot positioning interesting, unfortunately I have not experienced this type of range of motion... That said; I don't shoot the scores you guys do either. But... you need to work with the range of motion you have so this is what I'm doing. I'm happy when the big ten stays within my 3/4" hole. If I focus on it floating around in there I generally hit it. When I worry about (or even look at) the movement I can't hit anything... It's just the way it is and I accept it. By placing the focus of my conscious mind strictly on my shot routine none of this matters, things smooth out nicely... so long as I don't try to control it they go where I'm looking.


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## jmann28

N7709K said:


> i wouldn't label float as the subconscious putting the dot in the middle; that has more to do with aiming and the inherent ability to want to center objects upon one another than actual float. Float is more about the dot never sitting still. Your dot has a pattern; it moves in the same path, the same way, every time you setup the same good shot. For me my dot traces an elliptical path from 12 to 6; but it doesn't leave big 10...(talking about the average strings of decent shots here; perfect shots have a different float as do bad shots) There isn't a left to right wiggle, there isn't a low bob(inner face is a little bit of a different story and float), the dot just does its thing. After a couple ends the dot fades into the established hole in the target; at that point what you can get away with becomes much more.
> 
> If your dot sits good for 98% of the time you need to address why it doesn't for 2%; the 98% doesn't need to be looked at, it is working. 2% of shot doesn't seem like much, but that is what separates podium finishes and going home empty. Looking at your float with a left/right; it gives a couple places to look and a few things to address about as to why there is a left/right and that percentage will probably go down and those key points are addressed. When it comes down to it after a point you don't "know" where you dot is as the shot breaks but you have an idea as to whether or not it is printing behind the dot.


[emoji106]


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## Bees

Why does the pin float?, I mean what do you guys think it is that causes the pin to float?
I have worked on my alignment and have gotten my bow arm steadier and my pin float has gotten smaller.
So, is pin float bow arm motion/movement?


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## SonnyThomas

BeeS question; 
Bow; If at full draw on a blank bale, how much float is present? How much stress is present? Add a circle, how much float and stress is present? Don't think, how much float and stress in present


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## field14

Ever hear of the "BLIND BALE TECHNIQUE?" I'm not talking of the blank bale technique; that is a different technique all together!
The "Blind Bale Technique" is used on a target face, at 20 yards (or if you are nervous, 15 yards will work for starters). Yes, you close your eyes for Blind Baling just like "blank" baling. Difference lies in that for Blind bale, you are keeping score! That is correct...you are scoring!
Google "ProActive Archery" you will find it easily. The "Blind Bale Technqiue" is fully described in Chapter 18!

This practice routine will add a lot of fun and challenge to a practice session and you are learning something in the process, too! No, not just something...you will learn a lot about your shot routine nuances and be able to correct them. Why? Because by following the rules of Blind Bale, you will not have your eyes in the game, but you will have both photgraphic and visual evidence of what you tend to do "incorrectly" during your shot routine. By closing your eyes, you simply get those faults magnified and you can take photos after each end and a photo after your last end to see exactly what is going on that you likely aren't even aware of.

Can YOU shoot a "25" with your eyes closed? YES! You can learn to do this! Even with my intentional tremor, I can do it; not all the time, but I can do it! I had a student that flabbergasted me by shooting a "25" at 20 yards with the Blind Bale Technique...on his FIRST attempt! Blew my mind, he did!
Here's the rules:
1. put up a NEW 5-spot blue face.
2. at 15 or 20 yards, come to Full draw, anchor and center up your sight onto the target.
3. CLOSE BOTH EYES.
4. NO PUNCHING or touching off the shot immediately...those won't count! Finish your normal shot routine; feel that shot.
5. NO SIGHT CORRECTIONS ARE ALLOWED for the entire "game" (4 ends of 5 arrows).
6. This is for SCORE, so you score every end and take photos of each end for proof. these are needed for analysis!
7. Shoot the full game, following the rules..NO PUNCHING or touching off the shots immediately after closing your eyes...finish your shot properly.
8. After the last end, take a photo of the end and then of the target after all arrows are pulled. Save the target.
Do this for several practice sessions before you start making "corrections" to your stance and alignment. (normally it is in your stance and alignment, by the way; just subtle things). Sometimes it is in your grip...especially if you are a "vertical grouper" like I am!

You will quickly learn, if you do it right, that if you tense up and fight it, you will scatter your arrows all over the target (so what else is new, haha?), but if you do this right, you will start to even "feel it" when things are going amuck as opposed to when you shoot the blind arrow into the bullseye! You are learning to trust your shot and not your eyes!

Eventually, you will be shooting 22, 23, 24, and some 25's. I've had a some students shoot perfect 100 games. The best I've done is a 98 game. You can even win some coin by betting people that you can shoot at least a "23" with your eyes closed! They won't believe it until the see it.
What a fun way to break up practice sessions and learn something about your shot sequence and process at the same time.


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## Bees

SonnyThomas said:


> BeeS question;
> Bow; If at full draw on a blank bale, how much float is present? How much stress is present? Add a circle, how much float and stress is present? Don't think, how much float and stress in present


My float is OK, 

I don't have a lot of motion now and not stressed.at times it appears almost stationary for a couple of seconds. I have been working on a Flinch or clitch and I think I am gaining ground on that problem as it is almost gone. At last count I flinched one out into the 8 ring it was arrow number 100 into that session. 

but my question is why does the pin float?? What causes the float??? 
apparently no one knows why the pin floats????? or what causes the pin to float :noidea:


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## field14

Bees said:


> My float is OK, but my question is why does the pin float?? What causes the float???
> 
> I don't have a lot of motion now and not stressed. I have been working on a Flinch or clitch and I think I am gaining ground on that problem.
> 
> apparently no one knows why the pin floats????? or what causes the pin to float :noidea:


It 'floats' because there isn't a human being alive that can hold the pin perfectly steady for more than a second or so, that is why. You have heartbeat to deal with, you have fine twitch muscle to deal with...better yet...you are working in the PAST anyways, because it takes time for what you are seeing with your eyes to get transmitted and translated by your brain anyways! 
The key is to "minimize the float", and some people have more float than others. They other is to check out whether the float is jumpy and jittery, or smooth and easy. Then, is it up and down in the figure 8, or is it across left and right in the figure 8?
You will always have some float...and that is why you hear the thing "let it float and shoot the shot." Cuz trying to stop it from floating forces you to tense up more muscles than are needed to shoot the shoot and the result is usually a less than desirable impact point.
The more you get worked up about the "float" the worse it will get. There are things that can be done to minimized it...but how much has a lot of variables, and any experiment deals with ONE and only ONE variable at a time! If you work on more than ONE variable at a time you have chaos and won't know which, if any are solving things, or which if any are making it worse. Working on too many things at once is what gets ALL archers into trouble at the beginning. Those that work on ONE thing at a time experience way more success.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Bees

So your saying the Float is a product of human anatomy, which doesn't lend itself to an absolute stable platform.
to minimize float, one should be as tension free as possible. 
one should be aligned in a fashion or posture to give yourself a stable platform. ( the most stable for you)
the less your bow arm moves around the smaller your float should be. (I worked on my bow arm and my float is smaller)
once you can hold the bow with your smallest float possible for you, 
then you have to learn how to get thru your shot cycle with minimal added motion to the platform. this one is hardest to do.
if you can do these things then your consistency should improve.. 
if your consistency improves, your score should improve. 

Would you guys say the above is correct or incorrect?


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## SonnyThomas

field14 said:


> Ever hear of the "BLIND BALE TECHNIQUE?" I'm not talking of the blank bale technique; that is a different technique all together!
> The "Blind Bale Technique" is used on a target face, at 20 yards (or if you are nervous, 15 yards will work for starters). Yes, you close your eyes for Blind Baling just like "blank" baling. Difference lies in that for Blind bale, you are keeping score! That is correct...you are scoring!
> Google "ProActive Archery" you will find it easily. The "Blind Bale Technqiue" is fully described in Chapter 18!
> 
> This practice routine will add a lot of fun and challenge to a practice session and you are learning something in the process, too! No, not just something...you will learn a lot about your shot routine nuances and be able to correct them. Why? Because by following the rules of Blind Bale, you will not have your eyes in the game, but you will have both photgraphic and visual evidence of what you tend to do "incorrectly" during your shot routine. By closing your eyes, you simply get those faults magnified and you can take photos after each end and a photo after your last end to see exactly what is going on that you likely aren't even aware of.
> 
> Can YOU shoot a "25" with your eyes closed? YES! You can learn to do this! Even with my intentional tremor, I can do it; not all the time, but I can do it! I had a student that flabbergasted me by shooting a "25" at 20 yards with the Blind Bale Technique...on his FIRST attempt! Blew my mind, he did!
> Here's the rules:
> 1. put up a NEW 5-spot blue face.
> 2. at 15 or 20 yards, come to Full draw, anchor and center up your sight onto the target.
> 3. CLOSE BOTH EYES.
> 4. NO PUNCHING or touching off the shot immediately...those won't count! Finish your normal shot routine; feel that shot.
> 5. NO SIGHT CORRECTIONS ARE ALLOWED for the entire "game" (4 ends of 5 arrows).
> 6. This is for SCORE, so you score every end and take photos of each end for proof. these are needed for analysis!
> 7. Shoot the full game, following the rules..NO PUNCHING or touching off the shots immediately after closing your eyes...finish your shot properly.
> 8. After the last end, take a photo of the end and then of the target after all arrows are pulled. Save the target.
> Do this for several practice sessions before you start making "corrections" to your stance and alignment. (normally it is in your stance and alignment, by the way; just subtle things). Sometimes it is in your grip...especially if you are a "vertical grouper" like I am!
> 
> You will quickly learn, if you do it right, that if you tense up and fight it, you will scatter your arrows all over the target (so what else is new, haha?), but if you do this right, you will start to even "feel it" when things are going amuck as opposed to when you shoot the blind arrow into the bullseye! You are learning to trust your shot and not your eyes!
> 
> Eventually, you will be shooting 22, 23, 24, and some 25's. I've had a some students shoot perfect 100 games. The best I've done is a 98 game. You can even win some coin by betting people that you can shoot at least a "23" with your eyes closed! They won't believe it until the see it.
> What a fun way to break up practice sessions and learn something about your shot sequence and process at the same time.


If I remember correctly some one did lose some coins 

Tom first put this forth some years back, the close eyes thing. I just had to try it. It was...discovering yourself. You have to remain calm, relaxed (argue if you wish). My bow at the time was a 2011 Martin Shadowcat, so 2011 or 2012 I tried this. The bow was near as perfect as I had ever set up. It felt good no matter what. My first attempt netted a bull's eye. Took me a bit to settle down. Had some 23s, 24s. Pretty soon I nailed a 25 and 2 X. Later, 25 and 3 Xs, and 4 Xs my best. No, not every time. Took a pic, one shot just missing low, I believe in my Albums here. And I did it with witnesses. B.P, T.P and some one else present. Got asked why I needed sights.
Won a bet, diet coke from 30 yards and the lights turned out. I was shooting from 30 yards and the bet was made and G.B. turned the lights out and that wasn't part of the bet. Indoors, dark as all get out, I shot anyway and nailed the X.
All fit like a bow should be, you doing what you're supposed to...it's something else....maybe not for everyone.


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## Iowa shooter

Bees said:


> S
> the less your bow arm moves around the smaller your float should be. (I worked on my bow arm and my float is smaller)
> once you can hold the bow with your smallest float possible for you,
> then you have to learn how to get thru your shot cycle with minimal added motion to the platform. this one is hardest to do.
> 
> 
> Would you guys say the above is correct or incorrect?


I believe my bow arm is incorrect. What advice do you have?


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## SonnyThomas

field14 said:


> It 'floats' because there isn't a human being alive that can hold the pin perfectly steady for more than a second or so, that is why. You have heartbeat to deal with, you have fine twitch muscle to deal with...better yet...you are working in the PAST anyways, because it takes time for what you are seeing with your eyes to get transmitted and translated by your brain anyways!
> The key is to "minimize the float", and some people have more float than others. They other is to check out whether the float is jumpy and jittery, or smooth and easy. Then, is it up and down in the figure 8, or is it across left and right in the figure 8?
> You will always have some float...and that is why you hear the thing "let it float and shoot the shot." Cuz trying to stop it from floating forces you to tense up more muscles than are needed to shoot the shoot and the result is usually a less than desirable impact point.
> The more you get worked up about the "float" the worse it will get. There are things that can be done to minimized it...but how much has a lot of variables, and any experiment deals with ONE and only ONE variable at a time! If you work on more than ONE variable at a time you have chaos and won't know which, if any are solving things, or which if any are making it worse. Working on too many things at once is what gets ALL archers into trouble at the beginning. Those that work on ONE thing at a time experience way more success.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom knows what's going on.... What we don't think about, maybe... Okay, I competed in Pistol matches, various types. Slow Fire, Two hand hold was one. A difference of pistol and bow, the sights are out in front - you see both, rear and front. Sight plane of my Colt Gold Cup Trophy, 6 and 5/8" - kind of short compared to a bow. We got in time with our "float." We breathed out, we focused on the sights and let the target...blur would be one way of saying it. The sights move in a direction, a motion, a float pattern. We get in time with that motion and in brief instant all comes to halt in the center of the blur/target, execution of the shot or the firearm firing. We follow the sights through the recoil as much as possible.
It's been years back, 1997 maybe. Tom knows the Chillicothe Sportsman club. I held one club record in Slow Fire for .44 caliber. This was standing, I can't remember the distance, but 15 yards maybe, 5 shots of sub caliber, .387" C/C. In 1998 I won End of the Year High Overall in 200 Meter Silhouette for handguns. Back then practicing with pistols was no less than practicing with a bow. Once counted up 17,000 cast bullets for .44 magnum in one year. Two of my .44 mags "over hauled" around 10,000 rounds each. Two others had barrels replaced. Pistols, rifles and shotguns, probably pushing 1,250,000 rounds....


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## Bees

Iowa shooter said:


> I believe my bow arm is incorrect. What advice do you have?


I also have a Olympic recurve bow. 
I hold more weight when I shoot it. 
One day I noticed where/how my shoulder and bow arm were when holding the weight of the recurve.

when I drew and held my compound my shoulder and bow arm were in different positions.
When I put them in the recurve position, Pin float reduced.
then started the getting through the shot with minimal motion part.
about 7-8 months into this and I think I have turned the corner. 

So pay attention to good recurve shooters and mimic how they hold their weight.
you may find like I did, deviating from the generally accepted Compound form helps you. 

I have studied the KSL shot cycle, and have made changes to it according to my interruption of what he says.
So I have my interruption of Modified KSL cycle for a compound bow.

Gone is the notion that the release is a continuous effort from draw to release.
Now I draw, transfer, and hold, before anchor and release. 
I think the addition of the transfer and hold steps has made the biggest difference in my Compound accuracy.
during those steps I set my bow shoulder and bow arm positions.


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## Padgett

Bees, I explained what float is in my last big post.


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## Padgett

I would love to know how many shooters weather they are pro or just normal amateur shooters actually shoot with their float without messing with it. I mean do they actually have the ability to fire their release without pausing to wait for the pin to be perfect or using their arm muscles to try and control their pin. I became a 60x shooter shooting probably 50 rounds of58-59x's and then shot about 10 60x rounds and I thought I was floating but I wasn't. I was totally controlling my shooting from start to finish. Now that I am a real hinge shooter who shoots with float I can now see the difference for the first time, it was so hard to let go but I kept seeing the little hints as I shot and I had some "WOW" moments. Letting go of the control issues that were holding me back were easy at first until i had to shoot in competitive tournaments and then the control I thought I had to have would come back, then I finally was able to let go of the control even in those pressure shots worth a few thousand dollars and that is when I finally consider myself here to say.

Most of the control issues come from pride, you want to shoot good in front of your friends and with other good shooters at a tournament. I guarantee you that if I were to shoot with you guys at a tournament or a local range I would want to do well, I don't want to miss a x. This is where these control issues come from and for me learning how to just draw back and float and run a firing engine is the purist form of shooting that I experience, I do it when competing and shooting with a friend or at home in the yard. Plain and simple it has changed my life.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett, yes, no control, but orchestrated, "in the zone." "You think, you're dead." 

I'm accused of "ripping" a shot - 3D. Got to the stake, draw/aim/fire. "Sure ripped that shot off, but nice shooting, SonnyT." At other times I'm asked how I do that. Heck, I don't know. The shot was there and I just took it, no thinking.
And why I questioned; "If at full draw on a blank bale, how much float is present? How much stress is present? Add a circle, how much float and stress is present? Don't think, how much float and stress in present?"

Of course, when out just having fun, how many of us have pulled off a entirely incredible shot? And then I know this person, a truly good shot...right up until pressure is added. And a soda bet is pressure...


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## N7709K

Padgett said:


> I would love to know how many shooters weather they are pro or just normal amateur shooters actually shoot with their float without messing with it. I mean do they actually have the ability to fire their release without pausing to wait for the pin to be perfect or using their arm muscles to try and control their pin.


where do you draw the line between aiming and trying to place the arrow in the middle? 

Putting the dot on the paper and committing to the shot regardless of position wont' win shoots.... neither will forcing the dot into the middle and keeping it there. When the pressure is balanced between the halves and building between the halves at an even rate the dot won't leave what YOU consider your norm. For me i don't worry about missing big 10's; my dot does its thing and the shot goes off. I won't commit to a shot when the dot isn't in the middle- whats the point of committing when the dot is floating in big 9? The same goes for a shot that holds too well; those will miss just as much as a bad shot...

After a couple ends i don't really notice where my dot it; it fades into the holes in the target- the black thing blurs into the other black stuff and i just go score inners.. I that sounds over-generalized but thats how my practices go. I've had days with a very rough float and a very loose hold that have scored well and i've had days where a good hold put up scores that wouldn't play... But i know what it takes to play for what I shoot and i base everything off that; a 295 inner is where i draw the line. if i'm not hitting at 295 mark things get looked at; i may be hitting all the big 10's(its very rare that a low inner game drops and big 10's in my shooting) but big 10's don't play. I get into the rhythm of shooting; the back half flows and shots go down the pipe; when it becomes about placing them in the middle things slow and shots hang up- the hold doesn't change, but how the shot breaks in relation to the hold changes.


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## Bees

Padgett said:


> Bees, I explained what float is in my last big post.


I was looking for causes not a definition.


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## SonnyThomas

Bees said:


> I was looking for causes not a definition.


You replied to field14's last reply, but seemed...not positive as in asking for correct or correct. We are human. Everything about us has a pulse, whether heart or electrical current. Sitting at a bench rest, looking through a 24X scope, just your cheek on the stock. The dang crosshairs are dancing all over the place. Calm yourself and the crosshairs settle down.

Yes, eliminating stress reduces float. "Bow fit" paramount. No control, no stress (except that we are human). But we do take control of ourselves, calm the heart, the nerves and what's left is minimal float. We make ourselves behave, be void of stress, fault. For a instance in time, the exertion, execution of the shot, seems to hold the pin for tenths of second?

Said is the eye sees and the brains wants to look or vice versa and why the X is seen and yet we fire with the pin off target and the arrow still goes in the X.

% of let off. Said is 60/65% for best. ??? What's it do that's not noted? Hole shot. Speed out of the hole. Might just work with that accustom to float or pin holding for that tiny bit of time....


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## Padgett

n7709k, when I listen to you in your explanations to what good shooting really is to you I find that guys like you are exactly what I have used to become a solid shooter. You are exactly right in your question when you asked me where I draw the line between just aiming willy nilly and aiming to hit the middle of the little x. For me I spectate through my peep and I watch what is going on and I have a expectation of what I should see, I visualize what my float looks like at night when laying in bed. I study my float when I do my let down drills, I watch my float every day when i am training so I know what my float looks like when it is really good and just decent. Then when I am shooting for score I am simply focused on executing hundreds of shots over and over that are very similar in feel, I have gotten to the maturity level that i absolutely do not continue shots when something feels wrong because that is when you are going to miss. I simply spectate and I am ready to abort when something isn't right, now that is a interesting discussion. Learning how to be confident in yourself and not be thinking about aborting the shot is important, I don't think about it at all. I just do my shot sequence and the fact that i have done it hundreds of thousands of times can do it without thinking and when something isn't right I can push abort instantly without worrying about aborting a shot. All of these things come with putting in the time and thousands of shots and it is why I feel strongly about being a spectator shooter.


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## Lazarus

Way back when Terry Ragsdale shot the first clean Vegas round he was being interviewed following the tournament. The question was; What do you do when your dot leaves the ten ring? His answer was, "why would I want to do that?" 

That is acceptable "float." Now, I'll never use that term again, it's right up there with "back tension" on the annoying scale. 

.02


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## montigre

Lazarus said:


> Way back when Terry Ragsdale shot the first clean Vegas round he was being interviewed following the tournament. The question was; What do you do when your dot leaves the ten ring? His answer was, "why would I want to do that?"
> 
> That is acceptable "float." Now, I'll never use that term again, it's right up there with "back tension" on the annoying scale.
> 
> .02


:thumbs_up Great post!!


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> I would love to know how many shooters weather they are pro or just normal amateur shooters actually shoot with their float without messing with it. I mean do they actually have the ability to fire their release without pausing to wait for the pin to be perfect or using their arm muscles to try and control their pin. I became a 60x shooter shooting probably 50 rounds of58-59x's and then shot about 10 60x rounds and I thought I was floating but I wasn't. I was totally controlling my shooting from start to finish. Now that I am a real hinge shooter who shoots with float I can now see the difference for the first time, it was so hard to let go but I kept seeing the little hints as I shot and I had some "WOW" moments. Letting go of the control issues that were holding me back were easy at first until i had to shoot in competitive tournaments and then the control I thought I had to have would come back, then I finally was able to let go of the control even in those pressure shots worth a few thousand dollars and that is when I finally consider myself here to say.
> 
> Most of the control issues come from pride, you want to shoot good in front of your friends and with other good shooters at a tournament. I guarantee you that if I were to shoot with you guys at a tournament or a local range I would want to do well, I don't want to miss a x. This is where these control issues come from and for me learning how to just draw back and float and run a firing engine is the purist form of shooting that I experience, I do it when competing and shooting with a friend or at home in the yard. Plain and simple it has changed my life.


Ok, I'm in... How do you let go? On some rare occasions I'm able to do this and when it does happen I rarely miss... doesn't matter what venue. I just know they are going in the middle and they do. Unfortunately these times are rare at best and are only good for about 1/2 of a round. At some point I decide that I have to do this again or keep doing it or some other "I need to" thought takes over and the zone is gone. My conscious mind thinks it needs to be involved, keep it going or whatever. How would one begin to address this?

Currently I've been making some improvement by keeping my conscious mind occupied with my shot routine. Things are better and I shot a personal best just last week but it still seems to me that my conscious mind has a lot of influence in my game.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Way back when Terry Ragsdale shot the first clean Vegas round he was being interviewed following the tournament. The question was; What do you do when your dot leaves the ten ring? His answer was, "why would I want to do that?"
> 
> That is acceptable "float." Now, I'll never use that term again, it's right up there with "back tension" on the annoying scale.
> 
> .02


Great quote... unfortunately not something I can relate to.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> Way back when Terry Ragsdale shot the first clean Vegas round he was being interviewed following the tournament. The question was; What do you do when your dot leaves the ten ring? His answer was, "why would I want to do that?"
> 
> .02


One of two things. Terry had nerves of steel or he wasn't human like us


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## Padgett

eplc, you know I think that this spring when I went to the texas pro am was probably the confirmation that I had been looking for. It really happened by accident but it had profound affects on me, the two weeks leading up to the pro am I had been shooting freakish good for me and my shooting level. I remember having one day where I set up at 40 yards with a new cardbord target and I shot a 1.25 inch 12 ring on every shot for almost 30 minutes and that included my warm up. I had 3 10 rings drawn on the cardboard and each one of them had a low back 12 ring drawn on it. It was just awesome and the next day I came out and was totally commanding it to happen again and because I wanted to experience that feeling of smoking the 12 ring, yeah I totally failed for about 20 minutes and got so frustrated that the day before I was so awesome but today I am just a average asa shooter. I sit down on my stool and just tried to get a handle on things mentally and during that little 5 minutes sit on my stool I did something that allowed me to change as a shooter.

1. With yardage I have learned to do a good job picking the distance and set your sight and then 100% shoot the shot for that yardage, well I decided to do the same thing with the 12 ring. I look at the 12 ring and find a marker or something and I commit to aiming at that spot before I draw the bow. This way I can simply come to my anchor and settle in on that spot and run my engine.

2. I have studied my float enough to realize that when I come to anchor I have to move my pin over to the spot I am going to float on, about a half second after getting there my float starts and my float is really freaking good for at least 4 to 5 seconds. I don't have to wait for it to get good or try and make it good it is just good from the start. 

3. My final decision was a easy one, Look at the spot before drawing the bow and then draw back and come to anchor, the moment my pin arrived at the 12 ring I started my firing engine and about 3 to 4 seconds later the arrow will be gone.

There it is my plan for going to the texas pro am, I shot friday on the 3d practice range and then shot the team shoot and worked on this simple set of goals for the tournament and then saturday at 12:00 it was time to shoot my first shot. I totally reminded myself of the goal for the weekend and I shot the shot, in fact I continued doing it for the rest of the shots and at the end of the day I was 16 up and I only had 8 twelves. I had shot 16 up without getting a 8, it was the easiest day of shooting I had ever experienced on a pretty tough course and I was in first place for the first time. 

To me many times success is exactly what you need to confirm that something is special the next day I did the same thing and I shot equally as good and in fact my overall shooting was really really good and a few mistakes on yardage are the only things that stopped me from winning, I ended up getting 3rd shooting 20 up for the weekend. The last shot was awesome because it was a 17 or so yard shot and I was the last shooter to go and both 12 rings were filled up with arrows, in fact all four guys had shot a 12 and I only had a half of a 12 ring to aim at on the top 12. If I shot a 12 I would get second place and If I shot a 8 I would get 4th place so it was a big shot worth a bunch of money, I totally set my sight and I looked at the connector area of the 12 ring next to the ibo and I saw the spot I wanted to aim at. I knew that at 17 yards that my arrow should hit about a quarter inch high so I decided to aim directly at the connector, i drew back and the moment I brought the pin over to the connector I started my engine and about 4 seconds later the arrow was on its way. I missed the the 12 ring by about a 1/8 in and got a 10, it was a awesome experience because I did my job and stuck to my plan for the weekend. 

When you read my story I hope you hear that I enjoyed my weekend, I trusted that I am a good shooter and that I am going to make good shots. I really believe that most people think that they are a good shooter and that by forcing their pin to stay still or float small and by firing their release at the right time they can be a awesome shooter sometimes. I think that they know that they are going to fail most of the time but sometimes they will get lucky and have a special day, this to me is the death of their shooting and it causes them to on a regular basis shoot worse than their average and I mean way worse.

Right now I am to the point where I send almost 100% of my arrows to the target with a chance of hitting the 12 ring, that doesn't mean that I am going to hit all of them or do I think I am going to hit all of them. 

The more I think about this stuff I think that lying to ourselves is the biggest problem, i think that pride is probably the second biggest issue. For me I try to be honest about my overall shooting ability so that on a daily basis I can go out and train and compete and not be in a state of frustration at all times trying to get more out of my shooting than I should. What I am finding is that by accepting my current level of shooting ability it is allowing me to jump to higher shooting ability sooner rather than later, right now what happens is that I will have a really good day doing something that I normally wouldn't do at home or at the indoor range and then as the weeks go by I will have that day many times again and again. In years past I might have a really good day and talk about that day for weeks and never experience it again, this to me is what most people do their entire career.


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## Padgett

Eplc, I didn't cover the pride thing. To me if you and I were going to meet at a shooting range or shoot a tournament together I would want to shoot well so that you could see me shoot at a high level, in the past this would totally kill any chances of me shooting well. Just three full seasons ago I was so nervous at my first asa tournament I was shaking on the practice bags and later that day at the team shoot I was a mess. Now I shoot with guys like you all the time who I have worked with here on archery talk and they will see my sockets on my bow and we will shoot on the 3d practice range or they will be on my team at the team shoot. Your dang right I want to shoot well and pride is totally there, so I simply pick a spot to aim at before drawing and then commit to it. I come back to full draw and settle in and then run my firing engine and I send the arrow on its way.

For me this allows me to shoot at my level at all times and on some days I get a few extra line pulls and my score is awesome but my score is almost always solid.


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## N7709K

don't think about it; if your shot is mastered it will run itself through the entire process. put your dot in the middle and "watch" what it does but don't fixate on your dot movement or your shot process; pick an aspect of followthrough if you want to keep it archery related or repeat a certain line or phrase in your head(i always shoot and train with music, i'll go through the lyrics in my head as i'm shooting and just let the shots happen, i know were my release hand needs to end up and i make that happen... the rest takes care of itself). When you over analyze and fixate on every little step of the process you become careful; careful misses. 

the hard part comes in stepping up to the line saying that you are gonna put the next one in the middle; each and every time. You don't "hope to hit a 10" or don't hope to "not hit any 9's" you step up and put it in the middle. This is where close games bring a great deal of value; you can get the correct result and feel with every shot while learning how to disengage yourself from being careful.


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## montigre

N7709K said:


> When you over analyze and fixate on every little step of the process you become careful; careful misses.
> 
> the hard part comes in stepping up to the line saying that you are gonna put the next one in the middle; each and every time. You don't "hope to hit a 10" or don't hope to "not hit any 9's" you step up and put it in the middle. This is where close games bring a great deal of value; you can get the correct result and feel with every shot while learning how to disengage yourself from being careful.


This is golden!!


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## fanio

Yes, great post indeed.


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## ron w

when terry asked, "why would I want to do that", his response was questioning,.." why would I want to continue the shot process, when the dot leaves the 10 ring". not, "why would I let the dot leave the 10 ring". his point was,..... if the shot process has gotten that far out of alignment, it's time to let down and abandon the shot.... and start over.


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## Lazarus

ron w said:


> when terry asked, "why would I want to do that", his response was questioning,.." why would I want to continue the shot process, when the dot leaves the 10 ring". not, "why would I let the dot leave the 10 ring". his point was,..... if the shot process has gotten that far out of alignment, it's time to let down and abandon the shot.... and start over.


Really? How many times did he let down during that tournament?


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## Padgett

It has nothing to do with how many times he actually let down, It has everything to do with the fact that if something is wrong he lets down and doesn't send the arrow to the target. This is what a mature well rounded shooter does, they know what a good shot feels like and looks like through the peep and if something is wrong then they let down. I have read about that day and I have a feeling he didn't have many let downs because he was on fire.


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## Lazarus

Padgett said:


> It has nothing to do with how many times he actually let down,


Question wasn't even directed at you. But I doubt ron can answer the question either. 

You guys crack me up. 

Yeah...........you got it right, that's exactly what he meant.


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## SonnyThomas

lazarus, I don't know how many times Terry let down, if he let down. All the years I've read of stuff the only person that sticks in my mind is Chance B. for not letting down once during either his 1st or 2nd win at Vegas. Been a couple years back  Getting old, I guess


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## montigre

I took the quote as Terry having a little fun with the interviewer by asking why would he even bother to let his dot leave the center. 

Sometimes a fish is just a fish...lol!!


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## TNMAN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwnwbG9YLE


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## Lazarus

TNMAN, that's classic. This place to the "T." 

Excerpt from the October 1975 issue of Archery Magazine;

According to Rags; "A big joke around the club is a description of how Terry aims. He puts the dot on the target dot, then he centers it up in the middle and holds it there."

He was not inhuman, he was just someone who believed in what he could do, not what he couldn't. In that day and age there hadn't been any of these purveyors of truth show up spreading their gospel that says "you can't hold steady on a dot."


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## Padgett

lazarus, you are getting a little cocky with your thoughts in the last few posts. I don't think that any of us who shoot with float began that way, we all tried to put our pin on the spot we wanted to hit and for years if not decades we failed to get that simple job done. In fact not only did we fail to hold the pin perfectly on the dot but it translated into many other issues that also really suck.

I am going to the indoor range tonight and I am going to shoot a vegas target and I am going to warm up a little and then shoot a 300 vegas round, that is my plan and I have no doubt that it is going to happen. I am hoping that my hold or float what ever you want to call it is small enough that this week I can see a 25x or higher x count. Just a year ago I would have been hoping to just to shoot a 300 vegas round but I am getting better and better as the months go by and I really expect to see a 300 30x this winter. 

My shooting is as relaxed and as solid as it has ever been and my float has significantly shrunk since I started this quest to become a strong shooter, If it shrinks much more my pin will completely stay inside the 10 ring and float on the little vegas x from side to side. Would that be good enough for you?


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> lazarus, you are getting a little cocky with your thoughts in the last few posts.


And why not? We're all talking and not doing. So, basically Lazarus is telling it straight. I'm glad I don't shoot spots.


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## Padgett

One of the issues is that when you take a comment or two when a guy is a the tournament of a lifetime where he shoots a 300 30x round and it is a couple words long you really have no idea what really is doing. He may be totally on board with what we are talking about and we have never gotten to discuss any of it with him, I have been here for years and searched for things written by guys like terry ragsdale and it is virtually impossible to find. Usually they come from some guy that shot with him at the local indoor league back in the day and I personally shoot at these local shoots and if you took a random guy there and had him tell how our local pro shooter who has shot 300 30x rounds does his aiming or firing of the hinge you would get nothing close to the truth.


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## Lazarus

Padgett. Cocky? If stating a fact is cocky I guess I would be guilty.  Funny, I was just reading about that exact thing a couple of hours ago in a book written by Rick McKinney, maybe you have heard of him. 

I have no idea why you would need my approval. Nothing personal, because this discussion sure isn't. 

Basically the point I am trying to drive home is this; you can hold steady on a dot if you tweak your system, AND you (just as important) have complete confidence in your triggering mechanism. To say otherwise is just not true. If you disagree, maybe you're just not there yet. 

Good luck shooting tonite.


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## Padgett

I have a feeling that terry ragsdale is doing exactly what we are talking about but he is one of the best ever so his float is so stinking small compared to ours he refers to it as sitting still.


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## Lazarus

Padgett said:


> One of the issues is that when you take a comment or two when a guy is a the tournament of a lifetime where he shoots a 300 30x round and it is a couple words long you really have no idea what really is doing. He may be totally on board with what we are talking about and we have never gotten to discuss any of it with him, I have been here for years and searched for things written by guys like terry ragsdale and it is virtually impossible to find. Usually they come from some guy that shot with him at the local indoor league back in the day and I personally shoot at these local shoots and if you took a random guy there and had him tell how our local pro shooter who has shot 300 30x rounds does his aiming or firing of the hinge you would get nothing close to the truth.


Maybe someday you will develop a respect of the game to a degree that allows you to respect some of the "players" that did it, (and in some cases better) back in the day. If you don't think Robert Ragsdale's word is sufficient and not some "he said, she said" as you have laid out you probably need to read up a little more on just who you're talking about.


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## EPLC

Gee, I wish my float was that small  but unfortunately it isn't. You guys are so lucky.... yet, nobody has put into words that I can understand how you accomplish these 10 ring float patterns. "Just do it" doesn't cut it for me and really isn't much more been said here. And I've heard and tried most of the the DL, bars, balance, etc.. methods so until I understand it I'll just have to shoot with my unacceptable float pattern. I just have to pay no attention to it and settle for my 295-297 Vegas on my good days.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Gee, I wish my float was that small  but unfortunately it isn't. You guys are so lucky.... yet, nobody has put into words that I can understand how you accomplish these 10 ring float patterns. "Just do it" doesn't cut it for me and really isn't much more been said here. And I've heard and tried most of the the DL, bars, balance, etc.. methods so until I understand it I'll just have to shoot with my unacceptable float pattern. I just have to pay no attention to it and settle for my 295-297 Vegas on my good days.


EPLC, one of the best 300 Vegas shooters I know, Senior Triple Crown Champion a few years back. He and I were at this IAA Indoor Aggregate, the dreaded Vegas face. I saw his dot, so big it covered up the 10 ring. Dot looked a 1/4" in diameter.


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## Lazarus

EPLC, I don't believe online coaching is possible, but it's probably in your confidence/firing sequence. That's the last place someone with a bad hold wants to look, because it's the hardest to change. You admitted above that you had tried all the DL, bars, balance etc....methods, so what else is there? 

Yes, I'm familiar with your shooting and your switch from R to L via your forum posts and respect your abilities. 

Maybe you need to stop listening to the commonly held belief that you "can't" and start believing that you can! That is the major problem I have with this whole "float" idea, it is professing an inadequacy right up front. Some people (sorry field14) even go so far as to admit you can't hold still on a dot. That's just not true, and it's bad mental programming. 

My .02


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## N7709K

If you interpret float as a requirement and not a byproduct, sure it would be a huge pain to have to conform with. Float is only a visual representation of what is happening on target- it's part mental and part physical; the less you control it and just let it do it's bit the easier it becomes to see less movement. The more you fixate on making your float small the larger it gets.... Easiest way to out it is this "put your dot in the middle and just shoot your damn bow". 

Your float will tell you if your dl is correct. It will tell you if you have tension in the hands. It will tell you if there is an imbalance between the halves... Etc. you can hope all you want that your dot will never move, but in reality it's gonna. Your perception does sway how well it will look to a degree but that's as far as it goes. 

After point "x" you stop looking at the dot and start watching the dot while you look at the x. The dot comes in alignment and a hole develops. As the hole grows the dot fades into the hole and no longer isn't a thought during the shot process... It's the principle of orange dots looking gray.


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## ron w

Lazarus said:


> Really? How many times did he let down during that tournament?


 lazarus,.... how the "H" does that question you just asked, have any contextual substance to what I posted ?. you have no idea of the concept of "context" do you ?.
if you think you are challenging the validity of my post, you have no clue about archery at all. what does it matter how many times he let down, anyways?. my post has nothing to do about how many times Terry Raggsdale let down in the tournament,.... now does it ?. if you're going to be rhetorically challenging, try to pick a subject that is, at least, remotely associated with the issue at hand.
another fine example of how AT , gets to be known as " a forum full of idiots".


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## SonnyThomas

Lord! Found this;
He cleaned the first day (450) hmmm....no one had done that before..thats cool...lets go to Circus Circus and play skee-ball......He then cleaned the next day.....this could get interesting.....lets go play some more skee-ball......the third day comes around and I am battling Mike Stanislawski for the Amateur title while Terry is putting on his show. Luckily we are shooting opposite lines so I'm able to shoot my shots and sneak down and watch him....finally the last end comes and I have a one point lead on Mike. I got off 2 good shots and one that was really close. Mom is spotting for me because she "just can't watch" Terry. We can't tell if mine is in or out but I didn't much care at the time. I ran down to were the big dogs were shooting to watch the finale with everyone else. He drilled his first one....drilled his second.....drew up on his last..held.....and let down!!! A collective gasp went through the building. He hadn't let down all weekend...."Oh God!" I thought....he's gonna choke.
He took a deep breath and drilled the last one as applause broke out. I trotted back down to score our target and we messed around down there until I saw mom waving at me...about to have a stroke....I had forgotten to let her know that mine was in and I had won the amateur. I don't think she has spotted for me since. After things had calmed down a little I asked Terry why he had let down that last shot..........He told me that after he drew back he wondered what it would sound like if he let-down, so he let-down.
He told me that in order to calm his nerves he told himself "I don't even have to shoot this last arrow." If memory serves me he won by 13 pts.
.....that last part I think is what sets Terry apart from most....It is a brain game...to an outsider the let-down story may seem cocky....but it is anything but cocky. He caught himself thinking about the crowd rather than the shot and instead of doing like I and many others would have done, he let down, regrouped and made history.


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## Mahly

I think much of this is semantics. What one person calls "float" or "movement" another calls holding still.
I tend to take things more literally than most. To me, there is no such thing as the dot not moving.
What ever (name a pro here) defines float as is likely different than what many others define it as.
Not sure it matters how many times anyone has let down in a past shoot. If they felt all the shots were good, why would they let down?
I think we're getting a lite more worked up over this than the topic calls for.
LOTS of good stuff here, let's try no to get too personal.


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## Joe Schnur

Folks I know my credentials are not necessarily top but I have learned some things from some truly great shooters a dot or pin will perceptively move a frosted or solid thick ring helps your body naturally line up concentric circles and perceived float improves and you can concentrate on the x which you can now see clearly. It moves your focus away from the scope to the target. It has tremendously helped my shooting and I believe can be a great help to others


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## EPLC

Joe Schnur said:


> Folks I know my credentials are not necessarily top but I have learned some things from some truly great shooters a dot or pin will perceptively move a frosted or solid thick ring helps your body naturally line up concentric circles and perceived float improves and you can concentrate on the x which you can now see clearly. It moves your focus away from the scope to the target. It has tremendously helped my shooting and I believe can be a great help to others


This is true and the most helpful equipment change I've made to date. Only downside is it doesn't work well for 3d. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2296233&p=1071221419#post1071221419


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## Joe Schnur

Actually I shot my best 3d scores same way but I use 6x lens and clarifier you need to find the spot you want in the center and have nature do the rest your outer is all frosted I have an 1/8 inch thick ring with a 1/4 inch center opening I can still see the animal outside the frosting to help get on the spot


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## Eliteonly

I never look at the pin, just past it into the spot I want to hit.


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## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> He caught himself thinking about the crowd rather than the shot and instead of doing like I and many others would have done, he let down, regrouped and made history.


Good find, Sonny. Maybe he caught himself thinking about that last arrow and knowing he already had the win, really just wanted to know what it would have sounded like letting down. He was aware of the anticipation of the crowd and of their expectations, so since the "pressure of winning" had been removed a couple of ends earlier, he simply wanted to play a little....


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## EPLC

Joe Schnur said:


> Actually I shot my best 3d scores same way but I use 6x lens and clarifier you need to find the spot you want in the center and have nature do the rest your outer is all frosted I have an 1/8 inch thick ring with a 1/4 inch center opening I can still see the animal outside the frosting to help get on the spot


I've tried rings and they don't work out for me as I look at them rather then through them. The "hole" works out best for me but as mentioned... not for 3D.


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## Ned250

Joe Schnur said:


> Folks I know my credentials are not necessarily top but I have learned some things from some truly great shooters a dot or pin will perceptively move a frosted or solid thick ring helps your body naturally line up concentric circles and perceived float improves and you can concentrate on the x which you can now see clearly. It moves your focus away from the scope to the target. It has tremendously helped my shooting and I believe can be a great help to others


Yup, same for me. The big rings made by Precision Archery Reticles are awesome.


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## Padgett

I love that story about Terry, I have read it in the past and had forgotten how it played out. I have played on youtube to see him shoot a few times and I found one video of him shooting on a practice range and that is it and only for a couple arrows.


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## Padgett

I just went to youtube and typed in terry ragsdale and for the first time a video popped up of terry shooting in a shoot down. It is awesome to finally get to see him shoot.


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## SonnyThomas

History is History. Terry and Michelle retired long ago for heard personal reasons. I doubt they will be back and if so at chosen events. And possibly yesteryear thoughts might be tarnished. Hey, you're good for so long and not that brilliance might shine through ever so often.
I believe Michelle was on-hand, not shooting, when Ginger Moorehead broke her record at New York (?) and this was some time back.

It was a welcome surprise when Randy Ulmer returned a couple of years ago, but Randy returned as a Senior."


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## cbrunson

When you actually achieve no perceived movement, you will realize that it is possible. I don’t just mean that one time it held still for you, but when you get it to hold solid for many consecutive shots and get a clean release. 

It requires a combination of many things that have already been discussed here, but NOT acceptable “float”. If you are watching it move, you are trying to correct it, and subsequently chasing the dot around inside a circle.

The important parts to getting that dot to stop moving are:
Balance, stab set up, and repeatable form.
Correct draw length and holding weight.
Physical strength/ endurance.
Confidence that you can get it to hold still in the middle.
Knowing your shot window and recognizing when you are losing (or not going to get) the shot.
The ability to execute the shot quickly. Not punching, but quickly. (Easy to practice blank bail with sight. Just stop the dot anywhere and make a quick smooth release). This will help shorten your shot window and allow more time (arm strength) for acquisition. Some guys hold for a long time and shoot very well, but they also have the strength and endurance to do it. I like to get mine to go off within 2 seconds after getting the dot to settle in the middle. The trick is to let in settle and stop rather than firing while it is still moving a little. It requires a lot of patience and confidence that it will stop.

I’m no expert, but I know from just getting it to stop moving. You may be able to get that 300 50+ X game with substantial “float”, but when you finally discover that you can get it to stop moving, (perceived), you will start seeing those 25+ X Vegas face targets, provided your mental game will let you do it 30 times consecutively.


----------



## Lazarus

Padgett, I have a copy of the Oct 1975 "Archery" magazine that has an entire article about Terry Ragsdale. It has a couple of real shooting "nuggets" in it. Stuff that would get him called an "idiot" by armchair shooters on this forum. It may be passe' in today's society to read from magazines but in some cases that's all we have. Feel free to stop by some time I'll be glad to let you check out the article. It's worth a read.

Regarding the video, notice that there was zero movement on the end of the stabilizer.


----------



## Bowfinger63

Dee Wilde once told me " aim with your eyes,not with your pins"
once I've got my 'float' to a gentle hold within the green area, I more or less concentrate on my breathing, and back tension.
like ArcherXXX300 said I can't tell you where the pin is when the shot goes off. 

I draw, if the draw is good,then my pin housing is centered in my peep, once that's done ,I go thru this eye focus from string to target, and once the pin is 'floating' I just burn a hole into where I want my arrow to go. commit or abort,take a last breath out. and follow thru.

Dee also told me a phase, when I told him,' I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn'

He said " if you stare at the keyhole, on the doorknob, on the door of the barn, I guarantee you'll hit the side of the barn"


----------



## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> History is History. Terry and Michelle retired long ago for heard personal reasons. I doubt they will be back and if so at chosen events. And possibly yesteryear thoughts might be tarnished. Hey, you're good for so long and not that brilliance might shine through ever so often.
> I believe Michelle was on-hand, not shooting, when Ginger Moorehead broke her record at New York (?) and this was some time back.
> 
> It was a welcome surprise when Randy Ulmer returned a couple of years ago, but Randy returned as a Senior."


As Jeff Rogers told me a couple years ago......I will go back to Vegas when I know I will win......until then....I am happy where I am.


----------



## Bees

EPLC said:


> Gee, I wish my float was that small  but unfortunately it isn't. You guys are so lucky.... yet, nobody has put into words that I can understand how you accomplish these 10 ring float patterns. "Just do it" doesn't cut it for me and really isn't much more been said here. And I've heard and tried most of the the DL, bars, balance, etc.. methods so until I understand it I'll just have to shoot with my unacceptable float pattern. I just have to pay no attention to it and settle for my 295-297 Vegas on my good days.


EPLC Take your bars off your bow; leave the sight on.
go down to your basement measure your current float at your 13 yards or what ever you have down there.

Now move your shoulders and arm position to different positions, push the bow out and pull back hard(don't shoot just watch the float).
you should be able to find a position where the floats just sits there for some seconds. I used to put up with what was an unacceptable float for me. I move everything around until it just sits there at 13 yards, at 20 it doesn't move much. different stance, moved my hips over my feet more, different shoulder position( more in line with target) different grip& arm position (can feel deltoids now)., I now push twice as hard as I used too, and I pull back into the stops more also.
it was an alignment issue for me so I broke out of the mold and put myself where I can hold steady. Once you find the place where you can hold steady then you can build a shot cycle around your new position. 


In other words I finally found the bow to bone thing everyone talks about and where I found it for my body was not where everyone else finds it. I don't think you have ever found it. I also find it is a lot easier to commit to the shot with a small float than with a larger float. 
Don't be afraid to change everything. I did, except draw length I kept it the same 28 inches it has always been. my D loop is 1/2 inch.(wasn't a draw length problem for me)


----------



## Bees

EPLC 
Don't get sight motion caused by you moving something in the back, with float. If you don't move anything in the back end then what your looking at, is float. If your moving something in the back your sight will move because of it, but that isn't float, that is unwanted motion and your arrow let go cycle needs work to get this as sight-motion free as possible.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Well, I think people are leading others astray... The quote about Terry was a quote, but staying inside the 10 ring of the Vegas face? I thought about this and went out this morning. My .019" pin with 4X lens covers up the X ring of a 5 spot at 20 yard and staying inside the bull's eye from 25 yards. Maybe not at 30, but from 35 yards my pin is all but covering up the bull's eye. At 40 yards the bull's is covered up. I center to the 4 ring and can hammer a good bit on the bull's eye and get lucky on Xs. No, not all the time, but then there are only couple around that I know can beat me and others have to prove it.

While checking on this, what float? My pin stopped and turned it loose. 2 arrows caught the X ring at the bottom and 1 at the top. And came back in to finish this up. Note, 4th time shooting my new bow and I haven't tuned it yet...

And???? The circle/dot stick-ons from Archery Specialty, no dot as small as my .019" pin.

So cough up on the staying in the 10 ring.


----------



## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I think people are leading others astray... The quote about Terry was a quote, but staying inside the 10 ring of the Vegas face? I thought about this and went out this morning. My .019" pin with 4X lens covers up the X ring of a 5 spot at 20 yard and staying inside the bull's eye from 25 yards. Maybe not at 30, but from 35 yards my pin is all but covering up the bull's eye. At 40 yards the bull's is covered up. I center to the 4 ring and can hammer a good bit on the bull's eye and get lucky on Xs. No, not all the time, but then there are only couple around that I know can beat me and others have to prove it.
> 
> While checking on this, what float? My pin stopped and turned it loose. 2 arrows caught the X ring at the bottom and 1 at the top. And came back in to finish this up.
> 
> And???? The circle/dot stick-ons from Archery Specialty, no dot as small as my .019" pin.
> 
> So cough up on the staying in the 10 ring.


The next time you run into Tim G ask him his opinion of pin float!!!!!!

Of course, that could be part of the reason he hasn't ever won any indoor stuff also.......but i digress...


----------



## SonnyThomas

reylamb said:


> The next time you run into Tim G ask him his opinion of pin float!!!!!!
> 
> Of course, that could be part of the reason he hasn't ever won any indoor stuff also.......but i digress...


Ahhhh, Tim. I beat him every time, only thing is a wake up just when they start to hand me the check


----------



## Lazarus

reylamb said:


> The next time you run into Tim G ask him his opinion of pin float!!!!!!
> 
> Of course, that could be part of the reason he hasn't ever won any indoor stuff also.......but i digress...


Tim G.......excellent example for this discussion.

Unfortunately, when it comes to an "advanced" archery discussion there are two opposing sides. There are those that seem to know it all and aren't ashamed to tell you what they know. And if you don't do it their way you're doing it wrong. On the other side are those who have found out was works for THEM and they have learned to repeat it. Often times what works for them is somewhat unorthodox and not widely accepted. I could give you dozens of examples but won't. 

When it comes to this mystical "float" thing, there are those that just can't believe that for some it doesn't exist. But that's ok. To each his own. Reminds me of a good quote; "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." There's a lot of that in archery. .02


----------



## SonnyThomas

Let's don't forget, I asked how people are floating their pin or dot inside the 10 ring of the Vegas target.


----------



## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Tim G.......excellent example for this discussion.
> 
> Unfortunately, when it comes to an "advanced" archery discussion there are two opposing sides. There are those that seem to know it all and aren't ashamed to tell you what they know. And if you don't do it their way you're doing it wrong. On the other side are those who have found out was works for THEM and they have learned to repeat it. Often times what works for them is somewhat unorthodox and not widely accepted. I could give you dozens of examples but won't.
> 
> When it comes to this mystical "float" thing, there are those that just can't believe that for some it doesn't exist. But that's ok. To each his own. Reminds me of a good quote; "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." There's a lot of that in archery. .02


Pretty much sums up this forum for the most part.


----------



## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Let's don't forget, I asked how people are floating their pin or dot inside the 10 ring of the Vegas target.


4X at 29" DL and 6"extension on an AX3000, CR Apex scope, lense in front, PCEXL, 1/16" peep hole (no clarifier), 1/8" dot barely covers the ten ring. A .019 pin would easily fit inside the ten with plenty of bouncing room, which I think is a problem. I like bigger pins even for 3D. .040 is about as small as I'll go and I don't even like it that small.


----------



## Padgett

I was just talking to Tim Gillingham last week, I called him to ask him if I could send in a resume for b-stinger and Gold tip arrows and we ended up talking about shooting and arrow tuning for almost 40 minutes. I have talked to him about his feelings about float and holding perfect on a couple occasions including this one and I always enjoy the conversation.

One of the things that many people don't have is working knowledge of both sides of the argument, shooting with float for a month and deciding that it isn't for you simply isn't enough. In all reality you really never were actually doing it for real, I remind people many times I became a 60x shooter shooting at least 10 of them way before I was a real hinge shooter shooting with float. I totally thought that I was and I had some sweet scores to prove that I was and I was stinking wrong, archery talk is what has allowed me to progress. For me talking to people about these mental approaches such as float and subconscious and everything else we talk about made me look in the mirror and realize I wasn't doing the things that I though I was, then I made the choice to actually do the work and become the shooter that I wanted to be.

Right now I am hoping that my discussions with 97709k and everyone else here on archery talk can open my eyes to a few little things that take me to another level, I don't want to be done getting better and I can't wait for things to become just a little clearer.

I think one of the biggest problems is score, Just a few years ago I still remember struggling with my hinge and putting it up after shooting the first day at a asa and the first two targets of the second day, I was so disappointed to be in something like 50th place and way down below even. I took out my old scott silverhorn and shot the remaining targets 26up and it was freaking awesome to see guys in my group ralley behind me about the shooting I was doing, I got a top 10 finish and a check in the mail.

Now for the cool part, I was on my way to my truck and Sam Woltius was standing there and I told him what I did only telling him that I shot awesome and that I thought I might be in the top 10 and he looked right at me and asked me "Did you shoot you hinge?" I felt like a little 10 year old being scolded by my dad, he lectured me all the way home about the advantages and what I needed to do and for the next two weeks I cursed him shooting my silverhorn in my yard and at the local shoots. I was so convinced that he was wrong and I held my pin perfect in the 12 ring and blasted the shots but the more I shot the reality was that it was short lived. My good days were awesome and my bad days were throw the bow down and stomp on it bad. So yea, I have learned after 35 years of shooting how to hold directly on the spot and feel the feeling of the pin being really solid on that spot. I have also learned all those years what it feels like to wonder why did the arrow not hit the spot and miss by two or three inches when I was clearly perfectly on it. I know what it feels like to have the goal of shooting 35 out of 40 good releases, think about that goal. That goal when I look back at it means that if I have 5 flinches that send my arrow off center that I had a good day and met my goal.

The shooting I am now experiencing is much different, I go weeks if not months without having a flinch. It is to the point where I can't really remember the last time I had a flinch. 

You know we were talking about float in this thread but really I only talk about float here on archery talk, when I am shooting I refer to it as a good "hold". In fact many times on a 3d course if you shoot with me I will have a firing engine that wont fire after about 5 seconds and I will let down and you will hear me say "Dang that was a good hold".


----------



## cbrunson

Since we're doing all this name dropping, I finished right between Dietmar Trillus, and Tim G. at Redding this year. Does that help establish my credibility........ even though I finished 77th overall. :laugh:

You guys crack me up with this "I talked to so and so, and he said" stuff.


----------



## reylamb

cbrunson said:


> Since we're doing all this name dropping, I finished right between Dietmar Trillus, and Tim G. at Redding this year. Does that help establish my credibility........ even though I finished 77th overall. :laugh:
> 
> You guys crack me up with this "I talked to so and so, and he said" stuff.


Why would it crack you up? Getting information from established pros wouldn't be a good idea?


----------



## Padgett

For me I showed up to my freshman football camp in 1984 and a local guy who had kicked field goals was there one day and for 20 minutes he showed us how to kick soccer style. He told us that kicking with straight on was easy and that kicking soccer style took a lot of practice but in the end you will be way better. That was the last time I had formal coaching and I had to teach myself to be a soccer style kicker, four years later I was a all conference all district kicker. 

The same thing here on archery talk is happening, we have guys who have mastered things in the past and we can either trust their experiences and learn from them. I wasted 30 years by myself and yeah I have to choose what people to learn from but at least I am not by myself anymore.


----------



## cbrunson

reylamb said:


> Why would it crack you up? Getting information from established pros wouldn't be a good idea?


No it would be great, but taking the chance of misquoting or misrepresenting someone publicly is a farce. There is a reason those guys don’t post here.


----------



## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> When you actually achieve no perceived movement, you will realize that it is possible. I don’t just mean that one time it held still for you, but when you get it to hold solid for many consecutive shots and get a clean release.
> 
> It requires a combination of many things that have already been discussed here, but NOT acceptable “float”. If you are watching it move, you are trying to correct it, and subsequently chasing the dot around inside a circle.
> 
> The important parts to getting that dot to stop moving are:
> Balance, stab set up, and repeatable form.
> Correct draw length and holding weight.
> Physical strength/ endurance.
> Confidence that you can get it to hold still in the middle.
> Knowing your shot window and recognizing when you are losing (or not going to get) the shot.
> The ability to execute the shot quickly. Not punching, but quickly. (Easy to practice blank bail with sight. Just stop the dot anywhere and make a quick smooth release). This will help shorten your shot window and allow more time (arm strength) for acquisition. Some guys hold for a long time and shoot very well, but they also have the strength and endurance to do it. I like to get mine to go off within 2 seconds after getting the dot to settle in the middle. The trick is to let in settle and stop rather than firing while it is still moving a little. It requires a lot of patience and confidence that it will stop.
> 
> I’m no expert, but I know from just getting it to stop moving. You may be able to get that 300 50+ X game with substantial “float”, but when you finally discover that you can get it to stop moving, (perceived), you will start seeing those 25+ X Vegas face targets, provided your mental game will let you do it 30 times consecutively.


Thanks, great post!


----------



## cbrunson

Padgett said:


> For me I showed up to my freshman football camp in 1984 and a local guy who had kicked field goals was there one day and for 20 minutes he showed us how to kick soccer style. He told us that kicking with straight on was easy and that kicking soccer style took a lot of practice but in the end you will be way better. That was the last time I had formal coaching and I had to teach myself to be a soccer style kicker, four years later I was a all conference all district kicker.
> 
> The same thing here on archery talk is happening, we have guys who have mastered things in the past and we can either trust their experiences and learn from them. I wasted 30 years by myself and yeah *I have to choose what people to learn from *but at least I am not by myself anymore.


No discredit to that. Big difference between learning from someone who has done it, and trying to convey their teachings to online personas. I have been shooting with a big name pro for the last three years during indoor season, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read something on here that people claim was his advice, that I am very certain was not. Perhaps they misunderstood what he was saying, but I would feel like a total d-bag if I misquoted him, and he read what I said on here.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Thanks, great post!


Your welcome. I think you will get better a lot faster once you accept that you CAN get that dot to stop moving. Too many people on here seem to think there is some magical "be one with the shot" aura that transforms a lot of movement into an arrow finding the X. If you can't keep it in the ten, there are things that can be fixed to get it there.


----------



## N7709K

I set my dot so it fits in big 10 at 18m and inside the 10 at 50m; my 3x runs a smaller dot than my 6x but the target fit is the same with both. Clarity is bout the same between the two at 18m: can see inner 10 with both, running a 1/32" aperture with the 3x and a 3/64th #1 clarifier with the 6x. Running the same housing(standard pro series housing) on the same sight rail; when i do my part my dot won't leave big 10 at either distance, when i'm off i'll hit the edges of big 10 with the center of the dot (dot doesn't leave big 10, POI for the arrows doesn't leave big 10). 


tangent... but its applicable to aspects of this thread...

For certain aspects of higher level tuning and tweaking unless you have the fundamentals of your shot mastered they will do you ZERO good; you cannot evaluate and differentiate enough between your shots. Every shooter has been at this point and you can't tune your way past it. I get that shooting close games is "boring" or "pointless" or "doesn't work for me because i know its not real";but if the overall goal is to progress to the next level of shooting this is what it takes. It takes "x" numbers of repetitions for the action to become learned at the subconscious level; skimp on this step and you can have the best mental approach possible but it doesn't do a damn bit of good. 

Float, hold, whatever you wanna call it- up to a point and after a point its more or less a meaningless thing. If you are a 298avg+ inner shooter your dot sits in the middle; if you are a 275inner shooter your dot moves all over.... if you are a 295inner shooter your dot holds well, but it has a tendency to do X,Y,and Z. Knowing that it takes above a 295 inner to play; you learn from your float, hold, etc to develop your shot to the point where it just sits. 

You won't learn all you need to from one shooter; you need to be exposed to different shooters who have better grasps an masterys of their respective portions. I have a very good relationship with my coach and we talk often about things related to and not related to archery; but I also have very good working relationships with others that are well respected in their fields. I take what I get from one source, adapt it so as to fit my shot and my shot style and then i work with my coach to incorporate it correctly.... if you are working on aspect "x" find someone who know aspect "x" and can best explain it to you.. and so on as you progress as a shooter.


----------



## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> 4X at 29" DL and 6"extension on an AX3000, CR Apex scope, lense in front, PCEXL, 1/16" peep hole (no clarifier), 1/8" dot barely covers the ten ring. A .019 pin would easily fit inside the ten with plenty of bouncing room, which I think is a problem. I like bigger pins even for 3D. .040 is about as small as I'll go and I don't even like it that small.


I just tried again. 20 yards. New 4X lens by Feather vision. My .019" pin covers or at least fills the X ring on the 5 spot. Ain't no room for bouncing around. Tried my Cooper Johns, .019" upright ring, no lens, X ring is not there, just the bull's eye.


----------



## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> When you actually achieve no perceived movement, you will realize that it is possible. I don’t just mean that one time it held still for you, but when you get it to hold solid for many consecutive shots and get a clean release.
> 
> It requires a combination of many things that have already been discussed here, but NOT acceptable “float”. If you are watching it move, you are trying to correct it, and subsequently chasing the dot around inside a circle.
> 
> The important parts to getting that dot to stop moving are:
> Balance, stab set up, and repeatable form.
> Correct draw length and holding weight.
> Physical strength/ endurance.
> Confidence that you can get it to hold still in the middle.
> Knowing your shot window and recognizing when you are losing (or not going to get) the shot.
> The ability to execute the shot quickly. Not punching, but quickly. (Easy to practice blank bail with sight. Just stop the dot anywhere and make a quick smooth release). This will help shorten your shot window and allow more time (arm strength) for acquisition. Some guys hold for a long time and shoot very well, but they also have the strength and endurance to do it. I like to get mine to go off within 2 seconds after getting the dot to settle in the middle. The trick is to let in settle and stop rather than firing while it is still moving a little. It requires a lot of patience and confidence that it will stop.
> 
> I’m no expert, but I know from just getting it to stop moving. You may be able to get that 300 50+ X game with substantial “float”, but when you finally discover that you can get it to stop moving, (perceived), you will start seeing those 25+ X Vegas face targets, provided your mental game will let you do it 30 times consecutively.


So much here, but pretty much the whole bowl of wax. You been stalking me?  Yep, pin is there it's time to shoot. And mcuho is getting off that smooth shot. One thing I like is trying stuff, even if just revisiting. So while testing pin fit of the X ring I rammed forth a couple of Xs and then tried "smooth and easy." Arrows almost dead centered the X of the X ring. Went back to 30 yards and I it my best and another X... So I quit while I was ahead. 

Pounds and speeds. I know some spot shooters aren't drawing a lot. Me, the 2 bows I'm using at the present; MarXman, 55 pounds, 284.5 fps average.
MX2, under 53 pounds, 277.2 fps average. ASA Super Senior, 280 +3% - so I'm not worried.


----------



## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> *So much here, but pretty much the whole bowl of wax*. You been stalking me?  Yep, pin is there it's time to shoot. And mcuho is getting off that smooth shot. One thing I like is trying stuff, even if just revisiting. So while testing pin fit of the X ring I rammed forth a couple of Xs and then tried "smooth and easy." Arrows almost dead centered the X of the X ring. Went back to 30 yards and I it my best and another X... So I quit while I was ahead.
> 
> Pounds and speeds. I know some spot shooters aren't drawing a lot. Me, the 2 bows I'm using at the present; MarXman, 55 pounds, 284.5 fps average.
> MX2, under 53 pounds, 277.2 fps average. ASA Super Senior, 280 +3% - so I'm not worried.


Well that’s just it. There is a bunch of work to get it there. Understanding what adjustments work on your bars for fixing certain things as well as the impact those changes make to bow weight and balance is a trial and error thing that you just have to hammer out. Same with draw weight and holding weight, draw length, peep height, etc. etc. Knowing you can get it there is the key. Then you put it down for hunting season and have to start all over a week before leagues start. Haha. At least knowing at that point, that you just have to get the strength back up, helps a lot. None of those things matter if you can’t mentally hold the pin or dot still. That is where the short and long games come in. Confidence building. I really discovered the benefit to the long game shooting at 100 yards. Seeing pin movement at that distance equals big groups. Then when you get it to settle in and pull out a few sub-3” groups, you will be real close to understanding a solid hold.


----------



## Bees

N7709K said:


> I set my dot so it fits in big 10 at 18m and inside the 10 at 50m; my 3x runs a smaller dot than my 6x but the target fit is the same with both. Clarity is bout the same between the two at 18m: can see inner 10 with both, running a 1/32" aperture with the 3x and a 3/64th #1 clarifier with the 6x. Running the same housing(standard pro series housing) on the same sight rail; when i do my part my dot won't leave big 10 at either distance, when i'm off i'll hit the edges of big 10 with the center of the dot (dot doesn't leave big 10, POI for the arrows doesn't leave big 10).
> 
> 
> tangent... but its applicable to aspects of this thread...
> 
> For certain aspects of higher level tuning and tweaking unless you have the fundamentals of your shot mastered they will do you ZERO good; you cannot evaluate and differentiate enough between your shots. Every shooter has been at this point and you can't tune your way past it. I get that shooting close games is "boring" or "pointless" or "doesn't work for me because i know its not real";but if the overall goal is to progress to the next level of shooting this is what it takes. It takes "x" numbers of repetitions for the action to become learned at the subconscious level; skimp on this step and you can have the best mental approach possible but it doesn't do a damn bit of good.
> 
> Float, hold, whatever you wanna call it- up to a point and after a point its more or less a meaningless thing. If you are a 298avg+ inner shooter your dot sits in the middle; if you are a 275inner shooter your dot moves all over.... if you are a 295inner shooter your dot holds well, but it has a tendency to do X,Y,and Z. Knowing that it takes above a 295 inner to play; you learn from your float, hold, etc to develop your shot to the point where it just sits.
> 
> You won't learn all you need to from one shooter; you need to be exposed to different shooters who have better grasps an masterys of their respective portions. I have a very good relationship with my coach and we talk often about things related to and not related to archery; but I also have very good working relationships with others that are well respected in their fields. I take what I get from one source, adapt it so as to fit my shot and my shot style and then i work with my coach to incorporate it correctly.... if you are working on aspect "x" find someone who know aspect "x" and can best explain it to you.. and so on as you progress as a shooter.


 using a 2712 size arrow shaft,I find if my arrow hole is bigger than a nickel at 13 yards I really don't have a chance at a 300 on the Vegas face at 20 yards.
if I can't hold the nickel size ring at 13 yards I won't hold the 10 ring at 20 either. I'll shoot some nines just about the same number as was out on the nickel at 13. I have to have a solid cycle and trust in that cycle to stack arrow after arrow into a nickel size hole at 13 yards 2 feet, (limit on in house range). short range has some meaning for me.


----------



## Joe Schnur

Bees I use the scaled 8.5x11 Vegas at 10 yards keeps you honest for sure


----------



## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> Well that’s just it. There is a bunch of work to get it there. Understanding what adjustments work on your bars for fixing certain things as well as the impact those changes make to bow weight and balance is a trial and error thing that you just have to hammer out. Same with draw weight and holding weight, draw length, peep height, etc. etc. Knowing you can get it there is the key. Then you put it down for hunting season and have to start all over a week before leagues start. Haha. At least knowing at that point, that you just have to get the strength back up, helps a lot. None of those things matter if you can’t mentally hold the pin or dot still. That is where the short and long games come in. Confidence building. I really discovered the benefit to the long game shooting at 100 yards. Seeing pin movement at that distance equals big groups. Then when you get it to settle in and pull out a few sub-3” groups, you will be real close to understanding a solid hold.


I "played" the games, Field, Outdoor, Indoor, for two years, a commitment thing, IAA Board member. Didn't care for spots, but Board member and "playing" the game I went all out. Missing the 80 yard bull's eye would....tick me off. I have both the Field 80 and Hunter 70 bars. For those that don't know, the bars can only be had by presenting your score card showing you cleaned the lane and then you pay for those add-on bars. Same with the 500 Club patch, verification sent to NFAA Headquarters, and, at the time for me, $5.00.
That I don't "play" the games any more my longest distance is limited to what French Tuning gives, usually 55 yards.

I posted some pics in my Albums. Any one is welcome to look. I think sub 3" groups.


----------



## SonnyThomas

All this pin/dot floating inside the 10 ring of a Vegas face and one reply..... Did I hit a sore spot? (pun intended)


----------



## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> All this pin/dot floating inside the 10 ring of a Vegas face and one reply..... Did I hit a sore spot? (pun intended)


Haha. Not with me. I'm still tinkering with setting up my new indoor bow--shooting some close games on a Vegas face. Not a lot of computer time right now....


----------



## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> All this pin/dot floating inside the 10 ring of a Vegas face and one reply..... Did I hit a sore spot? (pun intended)


Doubtful. I think most would just shake their head trying to figure out why you can't fit a .019" pin inside the ten ring at 20 yards with a 4X lens. Seems strange considering an 1/8" dot barely covers it with mine.


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## SonnyThomas

My .010" might, but why smaller when said a "bigger" pin or dot gives less perceived movement?


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## Rick!

SonnyThomas said:


> My .010" might, but why smaller when said a "bigger" pin or dot gives less perceived movement?


.019" at DL plus a sight bar is a large 3/8" at 20 yards. Nothing to argue about.


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## Bees

SonnyThomas said:


> All this pin/dot floating inside the 10 ring of a Vegas face and one reply..... Did I hit a sore spot? (pun intended)


not with me, I shoot a circle on a lens, no pin, just center the circle on the target and it doesn't float around much. 
I don't know how big the float really is, I guess I could put a laser pointer on the sight and find out. 
it's acceptable to me and I can ignore it and shoot, so I'm happy with my float.. finally. :thumbs_up


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## SonnyThomas

Rick! said:


> .019" at DL plus a sight bar is a large 3/8" at 20 yards. Nothing to argue about.


Lost me. What's 3/8" translate to the X ring? 3/8" floating inside the X ring or 3/8" to the bull's eye looking 3/8" from 20 yards? Rain stopped. I'll try again.....


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## SonnyThomas

Bees said:


> so I'm happy with my float.. :thumbs_up


I'd happy with a root beer float right about now


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## Padgett

Hey, I went ahead and last night I went to the indoor range and I decided to just see how steady I could hold and shoot. I haven't totally committed to this for a long time and I did it for about 25 minutes of my shooting time to give it time to settle in, In comparision to my normal shooting I felt really solid during the first 10 or so shots and as time went on I felt more mental pressure from shot to shot to keep that focus on holding perfect. In fact by the end of the 25 minutes a bunch of my effort was spent before the shot just getting myself mentally ready to hold perfectly still. My shooting was really good and I was shooting inside out x's on my 5-spot except for about 6 of the shot during that 25 minute session. I did drop my only x of the visit to the shop that night during this 25 minutes of shooting, it was very much like I remembered back when I shot like this. I came to full draw and settled into a perfect hold and started trying to fire my hinge and everything felt great until a sudden really quick movement and the release fired, I did have two or three other shots where this happened but the hinge didn't fire and I moved the pin back over to the x and held on it again until it fired.

Positives from holding perfectly still:

1. I felt really really agressive
2. I felt really in control of the shots
3. My pin really did hold to still that I felt as if there was no way I could miss

Negatives:

1. The mental strain that I felt only after 25 minutes made me glad that I was done.
2. The pin was so still that when it did move a little I would feel the need to fix it and this is when most of the flinches happened
3. My normal enjoyment of shooting vanished and the need to be perfect took over.
4. Many of my shots that hit on the edge of the x felt like I should have hit the center and I had no feed back to why they hit over on the edge

All in all I am really glad that I spent the time to go ahead and do this drill, I remember a few years ago when I had to force myself to shoot indoor because I hated the feeling it gave me after warming up and then shooting a 5-spot scoring round. I would just be totally mentally spent and not want to come back even a couple years later when I became a 60x shooter and shot about 10 of them I would be sitting in a chair after the effort and have to come down out of the super focus mode and I hated the feeling. Now things are different, I can go in and shoot indoor for hour after hour day after day and enjoy the training sessions and scoring rounds and shooting that is top notch.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett, I've been trying, honest. I'm on, I'm on. The pin sits there. The thing I need do is put a smooth kind of shot and the arrow is there. To me, executing the shot just holds the pin there that tiny bit. Rough! The heck with this... I let down more shooting this target than I can ever remember letting down when shooting a spot event - long time ago and I've got Somezheimer's 
Dang! I tried. No matter what I could not see the 10 ring, the .019" pin just taking it out of the picture. The first shot was the easiest! The 2nd...exhausted comes to mind as I said a few....colorful metaphor words. That 2nd shot...glad no one was there to see. I flinched, the bow shook, I let down, I flinched....I let down. That _smooth __shot_ liked to killed me. I'll leave my bow hanging for the rest of the day, thank you.....


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## Lazarus

Since we've kinda gotten off track I'll tell my story, maybe it will steer things back onto "hold." When I was in high school I did quite a bit of bowling. I was coached by a Professional bowler. It was a great escape from archery since I had made shooting a bow into a job at that point. One thing I always remembered about his coaching was the following phrase; "Pick up the spares, the strikes will come." That saying really applies to precision archery as well.

Some of you will get that.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Since we've kinda gotten off track I'll tell my story, maybe it will steer things back onto "hold." When I was in high school I did quite a bit of bowling. I was coached by a Professional bowler. It was a great escape from archery since I had made shooting a bow into a job at that point. One thing I always remembered about his coaching was the following phrase; "Pick up the spares, the strikes will come." That saying really applies to precision archery as well.
> 
> Some of you will get that.


Been there done that  of course it was some time ago...


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Been there done that  of course it was some time ago...


Dang......good stuff right there! In that case this archery stuff should be a cake walk for ya!


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## SonnyThomas

Well, much belated congrats, EPLC.

"Pick up the spares, the strikes will come." Perhaps closer to home if I'm correct. NFAA and IBO 3Ds; Aim for center 10s and the 12s will come.


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## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, much belated congrats, EPLC.
> 
> "*Pick up the spares, the strikes will come*." Perhaps closer to home if I'm correct. NFAA and IBO 3Ds; Aim for center 10s and the 12s will come.


I took that as “learn how to hit one pin”, or a smaller target, then you will be able to hit the right spot when they are all standing.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> I took that as “learn how to hit one pin”, or a smaller target, then you will be able to hit the right spot when they are all standing.


Laz applied the quote to archery. We don't pick up spares nor can we put directional spin on our arrows as one can to a bowling ball. As I noted; " Perhaps closer to home if I'm correct. NFAA and IBO 3Ds; Aim for center 10s and the 12s will come." It's 11 for IBO.


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## Joe Schnur

That is why many are saying to use a ring









I upset it with out the dot the dot causes tp issues I need to see what I am shooying


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## Joe Schnur

At 30 inch draw 6x it just fits the yellow in the circle


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## field14

In the past, I used to think a "small dot" was the way to go. But that was WAY in the past and then after the incident belowI knew that chasin' a dot wasn't always the best idea:
That is fine. I used to luv it when I noticed my competitors trying to FORCE their tiny dot to sit still in the middle by tighten up every muscle possible. I knew they would be "mine" by target #10 on a field or hunter round and "mine" in the last half of an indoor round!
I make my own dots and have for years. I use the size dot that at the time/season allowed me to relax the most and get a solid site picture. Sometimes they were pretty big, sometimes pretty small...but NEVER as tiny as .019, NEVER. Those super small dots for me, created more problems than they ever solved. oo small of a dot tenses me up as I try to chase it. Too big of a dot also screws with my psyche. I find the dot size that is working the best, and go for it. Same with the circle, if I'm into using a circle at the time...too small tenses me up, but sometimes, the larger, the better; to a point!
One day I was competing in a field tournament, and on the 4th or 5th target, the lens fell out of my 6X scope (a Fazio scope, in fact), hit a rock and shattered. I had no spare lens and obviously didn't carry a spare scope either. So, I had to finish the round with nothing but the housing and no magnification! The only reference I had was to center the housing in the peep and let my eyes self center the housing on the bullseye. So, I had that huge "hole" to allow to float and let my eyes center it up. I still shot over 550 on that round that day! "Just let it FLOAT and shoot the shot."
T
Again, "Just let it FLOAT and shoot the shot!"


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## Lazarus

field14 said:


> Again, "Just let it FLOAT and shoot the shot!"


Good advice.........when the 5 ring on a 50 yard field target was nearly a foot across! And a 300 blue face indoors without an x ring was outstanding shooting!  

Now days you have to be able to shoot a 300 5 Spot at 50 yards outdoors, and shoot all of your 27's in the same hole indoors to play. 

Old people stuck in the past. I swear.


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## field14

Lazarus said:


> Good advice.........when the 5 ring on a 50 yard field target was nearly a foot across! And a 300 blue face indoors without an x ring was outstanding shooting!
> 
> Now days you have to be able to shoot a 300 5 Spot at 50 yards outdoors, and shoot all of your 27's in the same hole indoors to play.
> 
> Old people stuck in the past. I swear.


BULL HOCKEY! You are so out of touch with the past FORTY (40) years, I cannot believe it!
So you are saying that since 1976 when the field and hunter targets were changed to exactly what they are today..>NOBODY shot into the higher 550's on either target? Get real. First off, in the 70's and 80's and 90's we didn't have the fancy stuff you all have and are using today...we had to aim at and hit the exact same size targets as today. Many of us scored into the 550-558 level. Terry Ragsdale shot the first ever 560 in National competition in what, 1989 or 1990? How many scores above 555 have YOU shot with today's modern equipment? 

In addition, the 5-spot face with the x-ring has been around for some 40 years...and was exactly the same size then as it is now. Tons of 60X 300s were shot on that face WITHOUT the "logs" you all think you must have today in order to play the game.
Living in the past my butt...you all think you have it tough to compete, and that the game has changed...when the target sizes haven't changed in 40 years, and the distances being shot haven't changed either.
Try shooting Vegas...with 450 round on Friday, 450 round on Saturday, and 300 round on Sunday. Ragsdale shot perfect 1200's in both Vegas and Cobo Hall with two different bows...the 10-ring was exactly the same size as it is now...and he didn't need (they weren't even thought of yet) "logs" to do it either. How many 1200 total scores would be shot at Vegas if there were 120 arrows instead of 90? I'd wager there wouldn't be 11 or 12 going into the shoot down! Of course, we'll never know, because it won't ever happen...if anything, they'll cut it down to only 60 shots for the entire cajuna cuz people don't want to have to shoot a "marathon" like that.
Take the logs away from Jesse, Reo, and the top dogs...wouldn't matter...but take the logs away from the wannabees...and things would likely change quickly.

LET IT FLOAT AND SHOOT THE SHOT...the bullseyes are exactly the same size as back in the pre-1976 field and hunter target change and the addition of the X-ring to the blue face 40 years ago (the stone age).
Shot execution has NOT CHANGED, period. The muscles you guys are using today, or are supposed to be using but aren't are exactly the same ones we HAD to use because the bows did NOT hold themselves at full draw from higher letoffs.
Of course, many top shooters already know that higher holding weights make it easier to, "let it float and shoot the shot." Something the wannabees still cannot process.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Lazarus

field 14.........my comment was made tongue in cheek.......good grief. See  faces. 

However, the shooter of today is far more accurate than 40 years ago. I was there, my memory isn't that bad. Ok, the words "far more" might be subjective. Back in the day a loose 60x 300 was a huge deal. Those loose 60x 300's dont play today. That's not "far more" accurate, but you get my point. 

Furthermore....who was shooting the equivalent of blue face 300's 40 years ago (like the best do today) at 50 meters?? Nobody that I remember.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> Doubtful. I think most would just shake their head trying to figure out why you can't fit a .019" pin inside the ten ring at 20 yards with a 4X lens. Seems strange considering an 1/8" dot barely covers it with mine.


Well, so far you're the only one. Everyone is using circles and bigger dots.


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## SonnyThomas

When the tough get going, they get Going. 16 900s were shot at Vegas in 2014. There were no 90Xs shots. Of the Male Championship, of the 900 scores recorded 70 up to 82 Xs are recorded. 13 way tie for 1st! 25 899s shot.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> Good advice.........when the 5 ring on a 50 yard field target was nearly a foot across! And a 300 blue face indoors without an x ring was outstanding shooting!
> 
> Now days you have to be able to shoot a 300 5 Spot at 50 yards outdoors, and shoot all of your 27's in the same hole indoors to play.
> 
> Old people stuck in the past. I swear.





Lazarus said:


> field 14.........*my comment was made tongue in cheek.......*good grief. See  faces.
> 
> However, the shooter of today is far more accurate than 40 years ago. I was there, my memory isn't that bad. Ok, the words "far more" might be subjective. Back in the day a loose 60x 300 was a huge deal. Those loose 60x 300's dont play today. That's not "far more" accurate, but you get my point.
> 
> Furthermore....who was shooting the equivalent of blue face 300's 40 years ago (like the best do today) at 50 meters?? Nobody that I remember.


Figured you were cranking it out, but a 5 ring a nearly a foot across, I'd like that


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> Good advice.........when the 5 ring on a 50 yard field target was nearly a foot across! And a 300 blue face indoors without an x ring was outstanding shooting!
> 
> Now days you have to be able to shoot a 300 5 Spot at 50 yards outdoors, and shoot all of your 27's in the same hole indoors to play.
> 
> Old people stuck in the past. I swear.





Lazarus said:


> field 14.........*my comment was made tongue in cheek.......*good grief. See  faces.
> 
> However, the shooter of today is far more accurate than 40 years ago. I was there, my memory isn't that bad. Ok, the words "far more" might be subjective. Back in the day a loose 60x 300 was a huge deal. Those loose 60x 300's dont play today. That's not "far more" accurate, but you get my point.
> 
> Furthermore....who was shooting the equivalent of blue face 300's 40 years ago (like the best do today) at 50 meters?? Nobody that I remember.


Figured you were cranking it out, but a 5 ring nearly a foot across, I'd like that


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## montigre

Lazarus said:


> Good advice.........when the 5 ring on a 50 yard field target was nearly a foot across! And a 300 blue face indoors without an x ring was outstanding shooting!
> Now days you have to be able to shoot a 300 5 Spot at 50 yards outdoors, and shoot all of your 27's in the same hole indoors to play.
> Old people stuck in the past. I swear.


Haha, had to chuckle....
So much changes and so much remains the same....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viupdqcXvw0


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## glennx

I tried a few times last night to get my dot to float. After 5-6 seconds it was bad. I shot 2 9's 
playing with the float. Went back to holding on the spot and shooting back tension no 9's .


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## N7709K

Guess I shoot a ring or a big dot now.... Hmm news to me...


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## field14

Lazarus said:


> field 14.........my comment was made tongue in cheek.......good grief. See  faces.
> 
> However, the shooter of today is far more accurate than 40 years ago. I was there, my memory isn't that bad. Ok, the words "far more" might be subjective. Back in the day a loose 60x 300 was a huge deal. Those loose 60x 300's dont play today. That's not "far more" accurate, but you get my point.
> 
> Furthermore....who was shooting the equivalent of blue face 300's 40 years ago (like the best do today) at 50 meters?? Nobody that I remember.


Laz. "Far more accurate" I don't think so. But I see your point.

Back in the 80's, we used to have a "team shoot" on Saturday afternoon at the State Field tournament. What we did is to team up a "Pro" with an amateur shooter and shoot a Vegas Round at 40 yards, using the Vegas 3-spot face. There were SEVERAL perfect 300's shot on that target face at 40 yards...and that was with steel cables, dacron strings, springie or Golden Key Laucher blades and aluminum skinny field arrows (if you wanna call 1814's or 1914's "Fat" you can, I'll letcha.
I managed ONE perfect 300 at 40 yards. However there was a fella that for 3 years running shot perfect 300's on that round at 40 yards!

ANY 60X-300, loose or otherwise is danged great shooting. Who cares if it is loose or it is tight; still scores the same at Nationals. When it gets tense is in the shootoffs! Then you cannot afford to get "loose" X's.

I dunno, I watched Dean Pridgen, Jimmy Despart, and several others nail the heck out of the X-ring on the 50 yard target for some team events that they used to have at some State Tournaments. When I was in NY State, at the NYFAB State field up on the hill, they used the 50 yard hunter face and good ole Jimmy Despart was deadly on that thing. So, I guess it depends upon which area you were in, and whom was shooting those targets. There were also several amateurs that were/are deadly on that 50 meter target, too. Just cannot make a blanket statement that "the shooter of today is far more accurate than 40 years ago." I won't buy that for an instant! I do think that perhaps, because of equipment improvements, especially limbs and string materials, and maybe arrow components, we are seeing a FEW more high scores, but those high scores aren't any higher now than then. If today's shooters are FAR more accurate, there would be more shootoffs at the outdoor Nationals, and more would be in the Shootoffs at Vegas and Indoor Nationals...but the number of those in the shootoffs is pretty static and has been for years. Just sayin'


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> Figured you were cranking it out, but a 5 ring a nearly a foot across, I'd like that


Sonny, the old NFAA outdoor field and hunter faces weren't metric, they were in inches:

The target face used from the 35 fan out through the 53 yard walk up was a total of 18" in diameter. The "5-ring" was actually half of that in diameter, or 9". Of course, there was the aiming spot in the middle that also counted 5 points, but that sucker was way smaller than today's "spot (5-ring of today), and instead of an "X-ring" in the middle...it had an image of the NFAA "stump" there. Hitting a 4-dot 20 was something we all strived for and accomplished quite a bit.
Until release aids hit the scene bit time in the early 1970's...shooting a 500 with fingers and a recurved bow was an accomplishment. Strange as it seems, after the release aids hit the scene, the good finger shooters were forced to shoot against the release aid shooters, and the FINGER shooters, upped their game by quite a bit to try to keep up. Amazing how it works that way in that when forced to step up your game, you find a way to do it!
Used to have "dot shoots" all the time, shot for a nickel a dot. Low man payed everyone a nickel for each dot he/she was beaten by. Top dot shooter collected money from everyone at a nickel a dot. Some days you won a lot of nickles and some days....oh well. But hit the dot a lot...we did! 95 of them? Not that I recollect. I do recollect a fella shooting a perfect 560 hunter round with 85 "dots" out of 112 shots...with a release aid (rope spike) and his recurved bow. (Gene Parnell, in fact. Gene won Vegas in 1973 with that same release aid and his Spartan II recurved bow). I was trying to compete with this dude by shooting my fingers and a recurve. Got 3rd place in that tournament. Shot 528 field and 532 hunter...fingers and recurved bow (with a clicker). OLD NFAA scoring/target. Didn't shoot any 3's either day, so that goal was also accomplished.


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## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Figured you were cranking it out, but a 5 ring nearly a foot across, I'd like that


You were right...........I just had to say it, knew it would light a fire. Hey........I was just funnin' about. The 5 was 9" across though, that's ALmost a foot. Good grief. No wonder a snot nosed 15 year old kid could shoot a 560 with bent arrows. (that was me.)


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## SonnyThomas

To all the by-standers or those tippy toeing in, wait until we get to the marked arrows  Tom?


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## Lazarus

Back to topic. I have a serious question for those that think you have to "float." Maybe someone can help me out.

Ok, so is there anyone here who has trained at say, 50, 60, 80 or 100 yards for several days, maybe even weeks without taking a close shot? I have. If you've never experienced what I'm about to say you're not qualified to answer the specific question so just move along if you don't mind. Back to the question, if you have done this, shot at long distance for days on end then you decided to hang a 5 spot or vegas target at 20 yards what did you see when you shot it after all that long distance work? Did you experience a "hold" that did not move? If you did, what did you do? Did you stand there and hold the bow until it began to move? Or did you go ahead and let it (not) float and shoot the shot? You shot the flippin shot didn't you? You didn't? What did you do then? 

This is the exact scenario that taught me that you didn't have to buy into this "let it float and shoot the shot" mentality. Because you don't. If you train your mind to hold while your firing sequence operates you can certainly do so. Now, I am not saying that everyone has the ability to do this, some could be limited by factors that wouldn't allow it. Also, your setup needs to be near perfect. If you can actually let your aiming point move off the dot, fire while it's out there and still hit the center every time, fantastic. Great for you. It just doesn't work that well for me. I'll take my way, you can take yours and we'll all be happy. 

Last, I have heard it said; "there are as many number of ways to shoot as there are people in archery." Recognizing that fact is probably one of the most "advanced" thoughts there is. Be careful about arguing with this quote, I can safely say it was made by someone that is more highly decorated than anyone reading this.


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## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, so far you're the only one. Everyone is using circles and bigger dots.


Everyone of the *two* other guys that answered your question? :grin:

You are an interesting fellow. I digress. It doesn't matter to me if you never get your set up to hold very well. EPLC however, asked a question to all who frequent this sub-forum, and in fairness to him as the OP, and I believe at the level this sub-forum is intended to be, I think we should give our best opinion and method to acheive what we have found to work as individuals, and not seek to disprove each other.


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## SonnyThomas

First, my reply was not meant as derogatory. I have a couple PMs, still circles and dots. I'm using a .019" pin and no way can I get it inside the 5 spot X ring or Vegas 10 ring. If the pin is inside it virtually takes the X ring or 10 ring out of the picture, as in there is no floating inside either. My pin well fits inside the 5 spot bull's eye and bigger 9 ring of the Vegas face. 
As for holding well, I do pretty good for the level I shoot at, club and state sanctioned 3D events. I don't shoot spots now, but back when I did I held my own and I used a .029" pin then.

Yes, this thread as gone beyond for what the intent was..."Acceptable" Pin Float.


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## montigre

I wish I could contribute to this discussion in a non-perfunctory manner, but I have not yet discovered what will improve my hold on that demon-possessed Vegas target. So, I'm spending mucho time up close and personal with the thing until it spits out its secrets. In time....in time......Sigh.....


----------



## ron w

it can be done....
several years ago at the Badger State games 900 round, I shot next to a guy that never left the x ring for the entire 3 rounds. I looked at his target when it was over and I did not see a hole outside the x ring. I can't remember the fella's name, but he could shoot !.


----------



## Bees

montigre said:


> I wish I could contribute to this discussion in a non-perfunctory manner, but I have not yet discovered what will improve my hold on that demon-possessed Vegas target. So, I'm spending mucho time up close and personal with the thing until it spits out its secrets. In time....in time......Sigh.....



so you go up close and then try to find something that works up close so you can drill ole yeller right in the middle.
then you go out to 20 and find out what you were doing up close doesn't work from 20 yards.
how many times have you tried this???? I have tried this approach for years and it just doesn't do any good.
I ended up practicing the wrong stuff. 


so changing the way I thought about this. 
I went out to 20 yards and found something that works out there. I payed attention to details and found what it was that I do when I'm drilling the center good.
Once I found it. I brought that inside and practiced that up close until that is the way I do it. 

difference is, a confidence thing. When I go out to 20 yards now I feel like I am bringing something that will work. A more polished version of something that I knew already worked.

Before when I went out, I was always wondering if it would work at 20..and coming back wondering why it didn't work.


----------



## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> it can be done....
> several years ago at the Badger State games 900 round, I shot next to a guy that never left the x ring for the entire 3 rounds. I looked at his target when it was over and I did not see a hole outside the x ring. I can't remember the fella's name, but he could shoot !.



ron, I don't doubt you. It can happen, but the odds have to be out of this world. Vegas, 2003 thru 2012; White, Broadwater, Johnson, Annen, Morgan, have shot one 30X game. Terhune appears to have 2 30X games in 2012. Jesse Broadwater appears to have the most Xs, 84. 2013 and 2014 has Xs combined with the shoot offs.

If by the Vegas scores I've looked over, if you shoot a 300 25X count yourself in the upper class, more would put you in the Elite class.


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## N7709K

X record for Vegas is 86x's between a couple guys with Braden being the first- there are 15-20 guys I can think of who have shot 30x games in Vegas in the time I have been going... And that's not long.


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## SonnyThomas

Checked the scores again. I'm a little confused. The totals are there, but doesn't show the shoot off. Braden G. did have a 86, but was this from the shoot off? I did find 2 more that shot a 30X game, so I count 10. Now, I'm only looking at Male Unlimited Championship.


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## N7709K

braden shot a 900 86x first year at the southpoint 29 28 29. since then its been tied a couple times (Terhune with a 30 26 30 and atleast two others). the scores in vegas are a qualifier- you gotta qualify with a 900 to shoot 12 arrows in the dance

as far as 30x games to I have watched Jesse, Chance, Reo, Logan, Paul tedford, Levi, Nick Annen, Terhune, pagni, Chris white, Richard Potter, Cabe Johnson, Despart... and thats just in the years ive been going.


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## N7709K

Bees said:


> so you go up close and then try to find something that works up close so you can drill ole yeller right in the middle.
> then you go out to 20 and find out what you were doing up close doesn't work from 20 yards.
> how many times have you tried this???? I have tried this approach for years and it just doesn't do any good.
> I ended up practicing the wrong stuff.
> 
> 
> so changing the way I thought about this.
> I went out to 20 yards and found something that works out there. I payed attention to details and found what it was that I do when I'm drilling the center good.
> Once I found it. I brought that inside and practiced that up close until that is the way I do it.
> 
> difference is, a confidence thing. When I go out to 20 yards now I feel like I am bringing something that will work. A more polished version of something that I knew already worked.
> 
> Before when I went out, I was always wondering if it would work at 20..and coming back wondering why it didn't work.



upclose sets the ground work for the shot process and builds the subconscious image of a good shot paired with a good result. if you don't work the process back and develop the process as your go of course its not gonna work at 20yds when you only fixate on shooting a score and improving your scores. If you want to shoot a 30x you need to shoot 30 good shots; its that simple. Develop your process and refine it so you can shoot x number of shoots... that really all there is to it


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## montigre

Bees said:


> so changing the way I thought about this.
> I went out to 20 yards and found something that works out there. I payed attention to details and found what it was that I do when I'm drilling the center good.
> Once I found it. I brought that inside and practiced that up close until that is the way I do it.
> 
> difference is, a confidence thing. When I go out to 20 yards now I feel like I am bringing something that will work. A more polished version of something that I knew already worked.
> 
> Before when I went out, I was always wondering if it would work at 20..and coming back wondering why it didn't work.


Very good point, Bees and it makes sense. Will give this a go. Thanks!


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> so you go up close and then try to find something that works up close so you can drill ole yeller right in the middle.
> then you go out to 20 and find out what you were doing up close doesn't work from 20 yards.
> how many times have you tried this???? I have tried this approach for years and it just doesn't do any good.
> I ended up practicing the wrong stuff.
> 
> so changing the way I thought about this.
> I went out to 20 yards and found something that works out there. I payed attention to details and found what it was that I do when I'm drilling the center good.
> Once I found it. I brought that inside and practiced that up close until that is the way I do it.
> 
> difference is, a confidence thing. When I go out to 20 yards now I feel like I am bringing something that will work. A more polished version of something that I knew already worked.
> 
> Before when I went out, I was always wondering if it would work at 20..and coming back wondering why it didn't work.


This is a great post. It describes what I've been doing exactly. Practice at short range does no good unless you have something specific that works for you at longer distances to practice. What a novel idea! As I mentioned recently in another thread I discovered that I was not setting up completely before I committed to the shot. Since I've straightened this out my hold has been better. As a result I have something, while still rough around the edges, that I'm confident in. I've also been able to tweak the setup a little to get a consistent hold. Because my hold is better I'm able to identify other weak areas that need attention, such as my release. I believe at this point that a little smoother on the release side will complement the better hold and produce higher scores.


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## field14

N7709K said:


> braden shot a 900 86x first year at the southpoint 29 28 29. since then its been tied a couple times (Terhune with a 30 26 30 and atleast two others). the scores in vegas are a qualifier- you gotta qualify with a 900 to shoot 12 arrows in the dance
> 
> as far as 30x games to I have watched Jesse, Chance, Reo, Logan, Paul tedford, Levi, Nick Annen, Terhune, pagni, Chris white, Richard Potter, Cabe Johnson, Despart... and thats just in the years ive been going.


I think that Duane Price was the first one to score a 30X-300 at Vegas, several years back; that is if I recall correctly. Reo has shot 90 baby-x before, but NOT at Vegas.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Bees

montigre said:


> Very good point, Bees and it makes sense. Will give this a go. Thanks!


there is an up close trap, up close you can get away with a lot and still hit in the center.
I have a tendency to shoot a weak shot up close because I can get away with it and still think it's good because all the arrows are where I want them.
trouble was I didn't realize just how weak the shot I practiced with for so long was.. real rude awakening at longer distance with that weak shot.

I have a mentally and physically stronger shot now.


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## subconsciously

Some people got. Some don't. 

That's why there is 2nd place.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> This is a great post. It describes what I've been doing exactly. Practice at short range does no good unless you have something specific that works for you at longer distances to practice. What a novel idea! As I mentioned recently in another thread I discovered that I was not setting up completely before I committed to the shot. Since I've straightened this out my hold has been better. As a result I have something, while still rough around the edges, that I'm confident in. I've also been able to tweak the setup a little to get a consistent hold. Because my hold is better I'm able to identify other weak areas that need attention, such as my release. I believe at this point that a little smoother on the release side will complement the better hold and produce higher scores.



don't get trapped into thinking that you need zero float
my sight has to float some for me to hit the center. If I hold as still as I can and shoot, that arrow may but a lot of them don't hit the center.
if I let it float a bit and shoot my good strong shot the arrow usually hits the center.


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## subconsciously

Subconscious aiming takes a large part of the float into perspective during execution. It's not what you perceive it's what the mind sees. Who made the rule you have to have minimal float to hit the center?


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## cloquet

ttt


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## Lazarus

subconsciously said:


> Who made the rule you have to have minimal float to hit the center?


Probably the same person that made the rule that a hinge release doesn't have to rotate to fire. Or maybe it was the person that coined the hideous term "perceived" movement.


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## ron w

subconsciously said:


> Subconscious aiming takes a large part of the float into perspective during execution. It's not what you perceive it's what the mind sees. Who made the rule you have to have minimal float to hit the center?


 it's not that you have to have "minimum float to hit the center", but "the more minimum that float is, the better the odds of hitting the center is". reduction of float, is the "crux of the biscuit", that culminates the reason we work to produce a good shot execution. all of it, the subconscious release execution, bow fit, proper draw length, etc. etc......everything,... boils down to reliably staying on target well enough to send the arrow to the middle.


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## field14

Bees said:


> don't get trapped into thinking that you need zero float
> my sight has to float some for me to hit the center. If I hold as still as I can and shoot, that arrow may but a lot of them don't hit the center.
> if I let it float a bit and shoot my good strong shot the arrow usually hits the center.


Bingo...for most people it will be IMPOSSIBLE to "hold perfectly still", so find "your" float and learn to live with it without trying to force it to be "mo-better". Won't happen anyways, so why tighten muscles and buy extra paraphernalia that ain't gonna help anyway.
In addition, why work UP CLOSE all the time...the "Blind Bale" method, including the scoring aspect of it will build confidence, and in addition, if you are doing this at 20 yards, you also practice the feel of the entire shot process at the distance you will be performing at in competition!
Yes! You can learn to shoot "25's" at 20 yards...with your eyes closed! Not every time, but you can learn your shot process and get the muscle memory down to an amazing level so that you can feel the "bad things" by taking your eyes out of the equation! Trust me, the BLIND Bale method works, but just like anything else, you gotta give it some time and effort. Besides that, it can take the drudgery out of practicing and put a bit of a challenge into it due to the scoring aspect of it!
Up close is good too, but not as good as actual distance!
Google "ProActive Archery" you'll easily find it...there is a Chapter in the book that details the "Blind Bale Method."

Trust me, most archers out there, if they'd learn to deal with their natural float, and let their eyes do the centering, would learn to "Let if Float and shoot the shot." It ain't rocket science!

Laz, "Perceived movement" is indeed a truism. Use a straight stock site pin with zero magnification. You and I both know about this, since when we started...we didn't have scopes and magnification (unless we were using a "prism", but that is a different subject, hahaha). Then go to a 2X scope...and WOW! you see a lot of the movement your pin acutally had but you weren't seeing it. Then go to 4X and you will even see (perceive MORE movement) that was there in the first place, but you didn't perceive it. Then go 6X and OMG...then go full 8X and HOLY COW...will this thing ever steady down? That is perceived movment...the float is perceived to move more and more as the power of the scope increases!
On of many reasons pin shooters, at first, don't handle scopes well at all...the movement they are seeing (that was always there with their pin) drives them nuts! Then do that same thing and extend your site out farther and then start bringing the site extension in closer to you...same scenario...the movement you see (perceive) increases as the site extension increases (and your scope moves DOWN the site bar, too, so your site setting will change!)
Many shooters cannot "handle" 8x or even 6x, indoors or outdoors because of the movement they see. Of course, many learn to deal with it and some even learn to steady it down more. 

fieldd14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas

subconsciously said:


> Subconscious aiming takes a large part of the float into perspective during execution. It's not what you perceive it's what the mind sees. Who made the rule you have to have minimal  float to hit the center?


You train, build acceptance, you trust, you shoot. Float is then a relative term. Seems we all describe our float differently or see our float differently. 
And for the most part, by replies in here, we aren't using the same sight methods. I use a pin either with my Super Peep with and without a orifice. With a orifice only the pin is visible (scope housing out of the picture). Without a orifice the scope housing has a gap around it back to my peep - housing is centered, pin is centered.

Indoor and outdoors, Field, 900 round, and 3D IAA State Events. In all honesty I am not a good spot shooter.
Indoors; I once used a dot that covered the bull's eye. Hey, the white covered it was shoot time. Sicker than a dog, sweat drenched at the State Indoor Championship. Dot covering bull's eye; 297 the first day, 299 the second day. I don't remember the X count, really didn't care I was that sick. Not too many in Senior Adult Free Style and my 596/600 was good for 3rd place. Placed 3rd the following year using a .029" pin.
Field and 900 round all in Senior Adult; I stacked my .029" pin to the bull's eyes. Yes, a figure 8 is what I saw and I never saw float and maybe it was there. Figure 8 made, I shot. Field; Champion and 2nd place the following year. Outdoor; Two 3rds back to back.
I then quit shooting spots.
3D; I don't see float and it doesn't make any difference whether .029" or .019". There is no dang circle to stay in. Personal best and High Overall for event; 432 for 40 targets using .029" pin. I took two 2nds (1 in Adult, 1 in Sr.), Sr.;3rd and finished 4th once. The IAA eliminated the 3D Championship and I let my membership expire.
All throughout the above I used a Scott Mongoose single caliper index strap release.


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## Padgett

Last night I had 40 minutes to go and shoot some indoor for the first time in three days and I showed up and right from the start my pin was in my opinion floating poorly. I have good awesome float days and average and poor and this was definately not a awesome day, I warmed up and after 10 minutes I still hadn't missed so I put up a new target and shot the fresh target and just watched my pin float poorly but I kept banging the inside of the x. I tried to tighten up the float a few times but it didn't seem to affect things, my pin just wasn't solid. out of the 40 minutes I never missed and only had one arrow that was on the outer edge of the x ring. To me this is why I have chosen to learn to shoot with my float, I have a goal of working on tightening things up this season but I also know that I am not going to force things just to shoot poorly. Yesterday was a cool day that I enjoyed even though my float was poor, this is something I could not have done a year or so ago.


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## fanio

When you say your float was poor, did the dot stay in the x ring, or was it leaving it?


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## SonnyThomas

fanio said:


> When you say your float was poor, did the dot stay in the x ring, or was it leaving it?


My pet argument. Padgett noted his arrow stayed in the X ring, not his pin.

And my argument, no pin, no dot is small enough to float in the X ring of the 5 spot or Vegas 10 ring. Day before yesterday, freaking rain, I shot the 5 Spot, 57 Xs and never saw the X ring once. Sights, .019" diameter pin and 4X lens, Sure Loc extended 7". There were times my pin was bordering on going out of the 5 ring and the arrow still caught the X ring, ugly, but still a X.


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## Padgett

It was 5-spot target and no my float wasn't inside the x at all times. My pin was on the edge from side to side and up and down the whole stinking time and on this day I had to do something that I don't like doing and that was pause my firing engine on many occasions because my pin would be a half inch out of the x.

To me this would have been a disaster day a year ago because I would have spent the entire time trying to figure out what the problem was and I would have been trying to control the pin over and over and the stress would have gotten the best of my shooting. Sure I did draw back a few times and just try and hold still with no intentions of firing and it was a horrible feeling for my bow to just keep doing funny things out of my control. I really think it was a combination of my eating that day and the fact that I hadn't shot in three days that caused the funny feeling in my body and the poor float.

Again the difference in me now and me a year or so ago is that I am a spectator shooter, I simply watch my float through my peep and I run my engine. Sure it would have been nice for my pin to just sit in the x but that wasn't reality and I adapted and enjoyed my shooting.

Today when I went into the indoor range my float was much better and I would rate it at a good float day, I shot a easy 300 vegas round with 23x's and my float was just on the inside of the 10 rings and out of 30 arrows only one arrow was on the outside of the 10 ring touching the line. After shooting the vegas scoring round I put up a fresh 5-spot target and I worked on my inside out x hinge speed because it was a little slow and causing me to shoot a little later and I did drop a x one time. I had just speeded up the hinge and was a little afraid that it might accidentally fire and when I came to anchor and started to release my thumb peg I flinched and it fired.

The more I post on this thread I realize that the days are stacking up and I am cranking out day after day of indoor shooting and either not missing or missing one x and my pin float varies from day to day. To me all of the days have had acceptable float because I allowed them to work for me and not against me, I know that in the past I would have totally let it get to me and my shooting would have suffered.


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## ron w

with any amount of magnification, if your dot is truly staying "inside the xring", you are holding freakishly steady.


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## Padgett

I hope that this thread doesn't turn into how big your pin looks inside the x thread, I think that every person is going to have a slightly different look at their pin depending on their draw length and sight extension and magnification, etc. Finding some size of pin or dot or ring that makes you feel comfortable is the key.

Right now I am using a pin from my school, the Home Ec teacher was nice enough to let me have some of her pins from her sewing class. I took a variety of them that had little plastic balls on the end that were different colors and size. My shrewd scope had a .19 pin in it and I took it off and the little hole is where I stick the pin and there is a set screw that tightens down on the sewing pin and holds it in place. One of the big ones covered the white almost perfect like a big dot on the lens and one of them matches the size of the x ring on a 5-spot perfectly and that is the one I picked.

For me it is weird to shoot with a pin that matches the x perfectly because that means that all most 100% of the time the pin isn't lined up and it looks off where when I was shooting a .19 pin I could let it move around inside the x and work on my float never leaving the x. With my current pin there is no such thing of keeping it inside.

I also really can't see the rings, I have pretty good eyesight but not 20 20. I can barely see the 5-spot ring and the big x they have drawn in the middle helps but I basically just look at the center of the white area and try to float there. On a vegas target I can't see the little vegas x at all, I can also barely see the 10 ring on a vegas target and basically try to float in the center of the yellow.


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## Padgett

I am a few weeks into indoor shooting now and I think I am ready to start counting inside out x's, this is something that Sam Woltius does during league nights and I caught on to last season. I did it last year and in the beginning even though I was shooting around 56 to 58 x rounds on 5-spot I was only getting around 49 to 51 inside out x's. When Sam was shooting and keeping track he was getting over 56 of them almost every time. By the end of the season in training I had a few days where I made it to 56 and my average was about 52 inside out x's per 60 shots.

What I learned is simple math really adds up to a huge difference between me and a pro indoor shooter. I was giving 8 to 10 shots per scoring round a chance to be outside the x ring where my local pro shooter was only having 4 arrows with a chance of missing. In fact most of his arrows that cut the line the arrow was on the inside of the x ring but the arrow had cut the line where 6 or so of my 9 arrows that were not inside out x's were on the outside looking in at the x and cutting the line.

Many times that season I would shoot a 58x and he shot a 60x and it looks like I was only 2 shots worse than him but in all reality he may have had only 3 arrows touch the line and all three of them were only touching a little bit where I had 9 arrows that were touching and 6 of them on the outer edge and two of them missed a little. So in all reality I was a long way from matching his score.

My kid has a volleyball game tonight so I may have to wait till tomorrow to start counting inside out x's but I think I am ready, This is a easy way to mentally tighten up your shooting because your brain will visualize the center of the x more and shrink your float to hit it without you forcing it to happen.


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## EPLC

I have to be honest, this thread has been both bad and good for me... I tend to fixate on movement. When I'm doing that I can't hit much. When I keep my focus contained within my shot process my "float" is quite within a manageable range and I can hit things. That said; By trying to improve my float I have identified some subtle issues in my form that has actually helped my "float"... so long as I don't watch it while it's floating...


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## fanio

Padgett said:


> It was 5-spot target and no my float wasn't inside the x at all times. My pin was on the edge from side to side and up and down the whole stinking time and on this day I had to do something that I don't like doing and that was pause my firing engine on many occasions because my pin would be a half inch out of the x.
> ....


I understand that you are saying here that you STOP your "firing engine" when your pin is outside the x? Isn't that just "punching with a hinge"? I have always thought that the "correct" way to shoot a hinge (or a thumb release for that matter) is to NOT stop your execution on the basis of dot movement, but to keep running the engine. And also that this was the exact reason why people do the "10 yard game"?


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## Padgett

Fanio, I totally agree. I hate pausing my firing engine and I work on this in my training all the time, pausing is a form of control over the shot that many people use to try and shoot when things are perfect and this leads to target panic in many cases and commanding the shot.

The other day when I was having a really poor float day my pin was floating weird and at times it would just leave the x and be at least a half inch outside, In the beginning of my shooting that day I was letting down and I even did some down draws where I just studied my float and it just sucked and that is all I can say. I made a choice that I was going to just let it float and when it floated off of the x ring early in my firing engine I was going to pause and let it come back and then start up again. I didn't wait for it to come back and then try to fire right then I still didn't really care when it fired but it was way off the x and going to miss so I just paused and waited for it to come back and then I continued. Now when I found myself on the later half of my shot and the pin floated off of the x really bad I just let down because by pausing and then waiting for the pin to recover and then starting up the engine would have put me way past my normal window of shooting a shot.

I don't suffer from target panic anymore and I shoot almost 100% of my shots by floating and just letting the pin float on the spot I want to hit so for me on a day like this one I don't let control take over the shot, yeah I used a form of control to allow me to enjoy the day of shooting. I have let days like that one turn into a disaster in the past by trying to control or fix the problem and it never works out, my approach was to accept the float of the day and still shoot my shot normally with a few pauses when needed.


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## Lazarus

fanio said:


> I understand that you are saying here that you STOP your "firing engine" when your pin is outside the x? Isn't that just "punching with a hinge"?


No. That is not punching with a hinge. That is pausing the rotation of the hinge. I know it's just common sense and goes without saying, but "punching with a hinge" is when you command the trigger, _not_ stop the trigger. 

There's certainly more than one way to shoot a hinge correctly and accurately without "punching" it. In fact, there's almost as many ways to shoot a hinge accurately as there are numbers of people who shoot them accurately.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> No. That is not punching with a hinge. That is pausing the rotation of the hinge. I know it's just common sense and goes without saying, but "punching with a hinge" is when you command the trigger, _not_ stop the trigger.
> 
> There's certainly more than one way to shoot a hinge correctly and accurately without "punching" it. In fact, there's almost as many ways to shoot a hinge accurately as there are numbers of people who shoot them accurately.


No it's not "punching" but it is timing the release by stopping and going, stopping and going like a yoyo. I hope that nobody here is promoting this as a good thing as it is at least as bad a punching, but much more insidious.


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## Lazarus

I have heard two of the worlds top shooters just in the last few months both make reference to the practice of starting/stopping/starting the hinge in their (personal) shot process. One excels in target venues, the other at rubber deer.

People who don't recognize that as a common (and correct) way of (surprise) firing a hinge haven't shot too much outside at any distance in the wind. 

.02


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## Padgett

Eplc, you know when I first started shooting a hinge I suffered for a long time and even when I started getting on top of things I was still carrying my index finger release and if I had a shot in the field where the wind was blowing me around a little I would take out my old trusty silverhorn and make that shot. The problem was I was watching the pro shoot downs with levi and the best 3d shooters in the world and they were shooting in a field in gusty conditions and smoking the shoot down with 12's and 14's with their hinges.

I don't know exactly when things changed but I know that there came a day when I no longer carried my silverhorn in my 3d stool anymore. I now shoot in the wind with my hinge just fine and I shoot with it pretty much better than I ever shot my index finger release and I still float on the target in the windy conditions. To me you have got to be overlooking some of the simple ideas behind shooting cleanly and justifying a few bad things and they are the reasons that you are struggling from day to day.

If my 35 years of being a athlete have taught me anything this is probably one of the biggest, "A LITTLE SUCCESS SCREWS UP MORE PEOPLE THAN ANYTHING ELSE." To me you are like all of us, you have had some success when shooting in the past and you were doing certain things to get it to happen. Weather they were good things or not you continue to use them to try to produce that same or even better success, This is where your demons get bigger and bigger because you spend hours and even years doing poor mental approaches or poor form or poor firing engines and stick with them to the point where you can't even see the harm they are doing to you ever getting past them.

At some point in time you have to step back and see the reality and make the decision to cut off the blood supply to the things that are hurting you, as soon as you do this you can begin to learn how to execute things mentally and physically in the correct way. It will take some time but it will be worth it, this is why I absolutely hate it when people say just go up and do blank baling until things work themselves out. What things? You have to know what things have to be eliminated before you can get rid of them and then you have to know what things are worth working on.

In the end you want:

1. come to anchor and settle in

2. float on the spot you want to hit

3. run your engine 

4. Send your arrow to the target

That is it, that is all we want to do and it really is a pretty straight forward job to do and not letting things get in the way is the key.


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## N7709K

fanio said:


> I understand that you are saying here that you STOP your "firing engine" when your pin is outside the x? Isn't that just "punching with a hinge"? I have always thought that the "correct" way to shoot a hinge (or a thumb release for that matter) is to NOT stop your execution on the basis of dot movement, but to keep running the engine. And also that this was the exact reason why people do the "10 yard game"?


there is a big difference between stopping the shot and slowing the progression of the shot. When you get to point "x" as a shooter your arrow prints behind your dot; just how it goes. When the arrow prints behind the dot what the hell is the point of shooting a shot when your dot isn't in the middle? Indoors; best option is letting down and resetting, but that isn't always practical... and if you know your shot you know that you can still proceed with a strong shot even after pausing the process to put the dot back in the middle. Not even gonna bother getting into outdoors; totally different ballgame. 

The shot isn't getting stopped; the shot is getting slowed until it is acceptable to actually proceed with the shot. If you train to just shoot every shot regardless of movement you'll blow shots out all the time. If the dot isn't in the 10, don't shoot it- if this is a large problem at 18m then its time to work up close and refine your shot so that things come inline at 18m.

10yd games are about developing the shot process while building the positive mental image of a good shot coupled with a perfect result AND a decent shot with the same result.... There is also the bit about building the self image and convincing your subconscious that you can and do shoot 30x games in a theatre where repeatability is very high. 





EPLC said:


> No it's not "punching" but it is timing the release by stopping and going, stopping and going like a yoyo. I hope that nobody here is promoting this as a good thing as it is at least as bad a punching, but much more insidious.


No one is recommending that the process should be paused once started; but after a point it needs to be understood that if you shoot a shot where your dot isn't in the middle you might as well not have shown up... 


When learning how to shoot a hinge only shoot the good shots and those that are setup the same each time. If your dot leaves the middle-let down. If the float is more open- let down. If the shot is taking longer than it normally does- let down. If you think of anything outside your program[score]- let down. Work the close bale religiously; get your shot to the point that both shooters run the same shot and same program. After you have learned your shot then comes learning to work your shot into your game and how to best play your game. 

I know my game better than most- its what i do and my scores reflect that. My program is tailored to my game and my approach is built upon that. Other games take different approaches and the main focus needs to be shifted to different aspects.


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## SonnyThomas

??? Just a question, thinking "float" patterns move; Under what conditions are most practicing, light wise? I practice outdoors as home and at the mercy of Mother Nature, overcast, bright sun, angle of sun light from morning to evening. I can practice at the closed shop I worked at with good even lighting from any lane except the large window side. I can practice at a closer shop, but poor lighting, different target faces (yellow 5 spot) and only 18 yards.

Light changes, what you see changes and/or effects your shot placement and/or float or float pattern. Home, about mid morning, say 10 or 11:00, I have impact more on the left side of the X ring. Mid sucks because of glare. Afternoons, I have impact more right on the X ring. With on-going years I've learned to accept this. That I don't correct my sight probably gives some of my less quality shots.
If I use my 100 yard walk up range, farther from the house, the sun is more to my back and changing of impact isn't seen so much until late in the afternoon. I have a 3rd range that needs a new target stop, but it is also of a different angle for light.

And then conversations of Pros giving of helping each other sight in at Vegas and Louisville. I'm told Louisville has lights way up, giving dull or shadowy light.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> No one is recommending that the process should be paused once started; but after a point it needs to be understood that if you shoot a shot where your dot isn't in the middle you might as well not have shown up...


If I had to wait for my dot to settle in the middle I would never shoot one shot... besides staying home, do you have any other suggestions?  It's obvious that I'm either doing something wrong, or I'm just not capable of having this much control. Here's a video of two of the best shooters in the world. Jesse is about the steadiest archer I've ever watched (and I've watched this many times). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnoUNfUQ-s&feature=player_embedded


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## N7709K

EPLC said:


> If I had to wait for my dot to settle in the middle I would never shoot one shot... besides staying home, do you have any other suggestions?  It's obvious that I'm either doing something wrong, or I'm just not capable of having this much control. Here's a video of two of the best shooters in the world. Jesse is about the steadiest archer I've ever watched (and I've watched this many times).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnoUNfUQ-s&feature=player_embedded


at 18m does your dot stay within the yellow? does it stay within the red? does your dot move around the target more than your scores show? do your scores end up lower what your float says they should be? how does your dot move? how do your groups pattern out? do your scores feel comparable to your skill level?

steadiness comes from setting the bow up so that you do not fight it- bars, dl, holding weight, mass weight and balance are all adjusted so as to work best with your form and your shot. Certain setups work better for getting sight picture to become more steady; if you have more holding weight and build a platform around that you will see less movement in your dot throughout all conditions. if there is tension in the shooter; dot is gonna move more. If alignment isn't there; dots gonna move more. If there is a conscious effort to keep the dot still in the middle its gonna move more. before it does any bit of good to address the bow and making the bow fit the shooter; the shooter has to have a solid foundation to build upon... this is where blank bale and close games become paramount.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> at 18m does your dot stay within the yellow? does it stay within the red? does your dot move around the target more than your scores show? do your scores end up lower what your float says they should be? how does your dot move? how do your groups pattern out? do your scores feel comparable to your skill level?


Mostly yellow, sometimes red... It's hard to say as it seems to vary from shot to shot. I tend to get a lot of low left misses. In fact most of my misses are left. My scores have historically been up and down as I tend to let things get into my head such as "acceptable pin float" and the like. While not anywhere near the level of shooting that you preform, I do currently hold the RIFAA State indoor record for Senior (55-65) with a 300 47X. My LH personal best on the blue & white is 300 54X. On a good day I can still shoot 295-297 on a Vegas 300 round and recently shot a 445 Vegas 450 which is my personal best shooting lefty. My best 3D was at the 2001 New England Sectionals where I took 1st place in senior with 42 up for 60 targets over two days. Unfortunately the following season I developed a tremor shooting right handed that I was not able to get rid of... and believe me I tried. For over six years I battled this problem without success. What I did learn during this very difficult time was that as bad as it was I could still hit the spot "if" I would pay no attention to it. Of course my scores went down but the experience taught me that you are not totally dependent on how steady you are to shoot reasonably well. That said; I also understand that the steadier you are the more you can get away with...


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> Mostly yellow, sometimes red... It's hard to say as it seems to vary from shot to shot. I tend to get a lot of low left misses. In fact most of my misses are left. My scores have historically been up and down as I tend to let things get into my head such as "acceptable pin float" and the like. While not anywhere near the level of shooting that you preform, I do currently hold the RIFAA State indoor record for Senior (55-65) with a 300 47X. My LH personal best on the blue & white is 300 54X. On a good day I can still shoot 295-297 on a Vegas 300 round and recently shot a 445 Vegas 450 which is my personal best shooting lefty. My best 3D was at the 2001 New England Sectionals where I took 1st place in senior with 42 up for 60 targets over two days. Unfortunately the following season I developed a tremor shooting right handed that I was not able to get rid of... and believe me I tried. For over six years I battled this problem without success. What I did learn during this very difficult time was that as bad as it was I could still hit the spot "if" I would pay no attention to it. Of course my scores went down but the experience taught me that you are not totally dependent on how steady you are to shoot reasonably well. That said; I also understand that the steadier you are the more you can get away with...


When I don't think about my bow arm, I tend to get a lot of low right misses when my bow arm collapses, It's because I stop pushing. my sight drops and the arm has a mini collapse while the shot is breaking . When I make a mental effort to keep the bow arm push going and keep it out there like it is supposed to be, the arrows go back into the middle. I'm a right handed shooter, low right misses around 4 o'clock from weak bow arm. Weak bow arm also causes more sight movement than I like during the shot, I Stiffened up bow arm and MY problems went away. 
Still have to think about keeping the push going but the muscles have quit hurting and it doesn't feel tense or anything now.

You are Left handed shooter, pay more attention to your bow arm and see what happens.. 

I don't think the rest of these guys can even relate to a weak bow arm, I don't think they have ever had one.


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> When I don't think about my bow arm, I tend to get a lot of low right misses when my bow arm collapses, It's because I stop pushing. my sight drops and the arm has a mini collapse while the shot is breaking . When I make a mental effort to keep the bow arm push going and keep it out there like it is supposed to be, the arrows go back into the middle. I'm a right handed shooter, low right misses around 4 o'clock from weak bow arm. Weak bow arm also causes more sight movement than I like during the shot, I Stiffened up bow arm and MY problems went away.
> Still have to think about keeping the push going but the muscles have quit hurting and it doesn't feel tense or anything now.
> 
> You are Left handed shooter, pay more attention to your bow arm and see what happens..
> 
> I don't think the rest of these guys can even relate to a weak bow arm, I don't think they have ever had one.


Yes, my bow arm has never been my strong point. I shot some today without scoring to really try to understand my float, hold, or what ever you want to call it. I really tried to see how well I could hold without worrying about the shot execution. What I found was that if I really forced myself to relax and wait for the bow to settle down (all part of my shot process) I actually can hold reasonably well (not leaving the yellow, and decently centered). The problems entered when I tried to execute the shot from this position. As I pulled through the shot I found my bow arm moving to the left, sometimes abruptly. Adding some push helped but I still have difficulty staying on center once I started the release process. I sped up the release which helped some as well. By the end of the session I was making some pretty good shots but still felt there may be an alignment issue somewhere. As I go through this exercise I'm starting to understand that I've never really worked to improve my range of motion... what I have actually done was make adjustments to my equipment and hoped for an improvement in my hold. I believe N7709K eluded to this being a problem several times along the way here.


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## N7709K

Bees said:


> I don't think the rest of these guys can even relate to a weak bow arm, I don't think they have ever had one.


that'll come down to semantics; I can only speak for myself at this point, but I have experienced having a "weak" bow side. For me it is a pressure imbalance between the halves; so they are both technically strong- but there is more force on the release side of the shot as compared to the bow side. The same right miss is present and the shot progresses along the same lines as having a weak bow arm. The imbalance can go the otherway as well; I fight a left miss from time to time where the majority of the pressure is into the bow and instead of expanding through the shot I more or less push the bow through the shot. 

No one is immune to the common issues; we all suffer them just to different degrees and under a bit different circumstances. 



EPLC said:


> Yes, my bow arm has never been my strong point. I shot some today without scoring to really try to understand my float, hold, or what ever you want to call it. I really tried to see how well I could hold without worrying about the shot execution. What I found was that if I really forced myself to relax and wait for the bow to settle down (all part of my shot process) I actually can hold reasonably well (not leaving the yellow, and decently centered). The problems entered when I tried to execute the shot from this position. As I pulled through the shot I found my bow arm moving to the left, sometimes abruptly. Adding some push helped but I still have difficulty staying on center once I started the release process. I sped up the release which helped some as well. By the end of the session I was making some pretty good shots but still felt there may be an alignment issue somewhere. As I go through this exercise I'm starting to understand that I've never really worked to improve my range of motion... what I have actually done was make adjustments to my equipment and hoped for an improvement in my hold. I believe N7709K eluded to this being a problem several times along the way here.


when you pushed into the bow did it still want to move left as you progressed with the shot or did it want to move out right? 

That is a drawlength and an alignment issue based off of DL being skewed. If its too short you pay hell trying to balance the shot and the bow between the halves; if its too long you can only really work one half of the shot effectively.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> that'll come down to semantics; I can only speak for myself at this point, but I have experienced having a "weak" bow side. For me it is a pressure imbalance between the halves; so they are both technically strong- but there is more force on the release side of the shot as compared to the bow side. The same right miss is present and the shot progresses along the same lines as having a weak bow arm. The imbalance can go the otherway as well; I fight a left miss from time to time where the majority of the pressure is into the bow and instead of expanding through the shot I more or less push the bow through the shot.
> 
> No one is immune to the common issues; we all suffer them just to different degrees and under a bit different circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> when you pushed into the bow did it still want to move left as you progressed with the shot or did it want to move out right?
> 
> That is a drawlength and an alignment issue based off of DL being skewed. If its too short you pay hell trying to balance the shot and the bow between the halves; if its too long you can only really work one half of the shot effectively.


Not sure on the push-off direction, I'll get you an answer on that tomorrow but I do get some right flyers as well but not anywhere as frequent. I can say that this feels like you described as an imbalance between the halves though. I was thinking as I shot today that my DL felt just a tad too short, but then I've done the tweak the DL thing many times and not found the sweet spot... or, I'll find it but it seems to be temporary.


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## fanio

N7709K said:


> ...When you get to point "x" as a shooter your arrow prints behind your dot; just how it goes. When the arrow prints behind the dot what the hell is the point of shooting a shot when your dot isn't in the middle?
> ...
> The shot isn't getting stopped; the shot is getting slowed until it is acceptable to actually proceed with the shot. If you train to just shoot every shot regardless of movement you'll blow shots out all the time. ...


Thank you Jacob for this. 

I am at the point where I would say 95 out of 100 shots print behind the dot. On say 3 of the other 5, the dot is somewhere outside the spot when the shot breaks. On 2/5 (i.e. 2 / 100) the arrow will print "outside the dot". But (like EPLC) the dot movement I have seems too big, and because I have since starting shooting with a hinge tried very hard to "just keep excuting" quite often the dot will sit in the 9 (or 8 or worse on a FITA...) when the shot breaks. Printing behind that means I shoot mid-290s on a Vegas target, where I feel (and people who see my form say) I should be shooting high 290s or even the occassional 300. 

My hinge (HT Pro) is set up so it clicks when I anchor, and I feel no movement whatsoever before it fires (obviously it moves, as it's a hinge - but I do not use my fingers at all to make this happen) - so how does one "slow" the execution without losing tension against the wall (I learned to shoot in the early 90s, when received wisdom wa to shoot from the middle of the valley - it is very difficult for me not to lose just a bit of tension though shooting Spirals helps keep me honest).

I have learned a lot about mental approach from this thread already. Due to a new job shooting time has been limited lately but hopefully that will become a bit better soon.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> Yes, my bow arm has never been my strong point. I shot some today without scoring to really try to understand my float, hold, or what ever you want to call it. I really tried to see how well I could hold without worrying about the shot execution. What I found was that if I really forced myself to relax and wait for the bow to settle down (all part of my shot process) I actually can hold reasonably well (not leaving the yellow, and decently centered). The problems entered when I tried to execute the shot from this position. As I pulled through the shot I found my bow arm moving to the left, sometimes abruptly. Adding some push helped but I still have difficulty staying on center once I started the release process. I sped up the release which helped some as well. By the end of the session I was making some pretty good shots but still felt there may be an alignment issue somewhere. As I go through this exercise I'm starting to understand that I've never really worked to improve my range of motion... what I have actually done was make adjustments to my equipment and hoped for an improvement in my hold. I believe N7709K eluded to this being a problem several times along the way here.


Now this is exactly what I found out and I divided the process up into two Parts. the first part is just holding. I draw, I transfer and hold and eventually come to anchor and just look at how steady I can hold on the spot. for me it is quite steady. ( this is what you call settling down.)
I worked on bow fit and body alignment to get this as steady as I could. 

the second Part is working on getting a release cycle that doesn't upset my float pattern. I understand today that my site will jump when I move something in the back, So I get all my hinge handle positioning and any other positioning I have to do,done before I aim, ( I watch it thru my peep and it jumps and moves but I know that it is because I am positioning my release handle and myself in the back to where I want things to be.) when I get everything to where I want it, The sight picture stabilizes and all that is left is my small micro expansion move which causes the hinge to fire. 
sounds like your going to have to work out something like I did. (Keep in mind when you work out this something, don't forget the bow arm must stay strong through out the cycle. I kind of forgot about the bow arm and just worked on the release side, which further complicated the process)

Goggle bow hunting shoulder exercises and you will see many pop up.
I do some of these exercises to increase or keep my body range of motion. 
Old age seems to want to chip away at the body's range of motion and if you let it you won't be able to move much at all.


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## EPLC

I shot again today and I'm still not sure how to answer the question as to which way the bow goes as I push off? Quite a while ago I stopped pushing off based on information read here on AT by some very good professional archers. This was quite some time ago. It took me a while but I broke myself of the push-pull. Of course this may be my issue. Click the link below...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14355&highlight=push+push


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## SonnyThomas

March 26, 2003. Three replies to the Poster's question, two by the same person....Well, there sure are a lot of Pros today using a "bent" bow elbow if you get to looking around.

Me? I ain't tellin' these two they're doing it wrong...


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## Bees

SonnyThomas said:


> March 26, 2003. Three replies to the Poster's question, two by the same person....Well, there sure are a lot of Pros today using a "bent" bow elbow if you get to looking around.
> 
> Me? I ain't tellin' these two they're doing it wrong...


why does everything with your guys have to be either right or wrong???? 
there is no right or wrong to any of it. 
Point being that every archer has to work out what produces an acceptable hold for them.
what produces an acceptable float for me is a straight bow arm, what produces an acceptable float for some one else is a bent arm.
Doesn't mean one method is better than the other, just means different body types, shapes and sizes requires different body part positions to get a desired result. in this case an acceptable float.

EPLC has to find out what is going to work for him going forward from now. once he finds what his acceptable float is and looks like, then he can start to learn a shot process that doesn't produce a bunch of unwanted motion when he releases the arrow.
Right now I think he can hold steady enough but he has to learned how to get through his shot without generating all that motion.
been there done that and it isn't easy, but once it's figured out, it isn't all that difficult either. Now what I figured out for me might not work for anyone else, but that doesn't make what I do wrong. It just means it doesn't work for someone else.


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## fanio

Imagine how good Jesse would have been if he had learnt to shoot with a straight arm!!


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## Joe Schnur

Very funny fanio


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> March 26, 2003. Three replies to the Poster's question, two by the same person....Well, there sure are a lot of Pros today using a "bent" bow elbow if you get to looking around.
> 
> Me? I ain't tellin' these two they're doing it wrong...


Point being: There is no definitive right way to succeed in this sport. 

Back then there was a lot of discussion about this bent vs. straight arm and push vs. pull arguments. The consensus then was straight arm with no push off... but there was also much contradiction. GRIV also posted that just pulling was the way to go then as well, but his writings on "dynamic tension" contradict this as he defines it as a push and pull technique. Because of this I asked him which was correct and he responded that no push was the answer. Being very naïve at the time I changed my form to the "correct" way of not pushing. As BeeS points out I need to find a repeatable form that works for me. I also understand my problems are mostly in my head because I can go from shooting reasonably well to can't hit anything in a heartbeat.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Point being: There is no definitive right way to succeed in this sport.


Precisely. Almost. 

There is a definitive "right way" to succeed in this sport. And that definitive "right way" varies with every, single, archer. The *key* is; the archer must shoot enough, (numbers) to shoot enough, (quality) to figure out what the "right way" is for them. *NO one* can tell you this. The problem is, in our society we have been conditioned to look for the quick fix, or to "buy" success. That can't be done in archery, therefore there is always an argument with regard to the "right way." 

Unfortunately there isn't much room on this forum for those who have truly discovered the above, because, as has been pointed out there will always be someone to tell them they are doing it wrong. Or there will be someone who has to came up with some sort of z+y-2x(26)=success formula to attempt to tell them they are doing it wrong (and buy my video!) 

Love this sport, for the reason that it's the individual that determines their own personal success. I just wish more people realized that.


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## SonnyThomas

Bees said:


> why does everything with your guys have to be either right or wrong????
> there is no right or wrong to any of it.
> .


It wasn't a "either right or wrong." Read it again. I did nothing but point out that of the link.


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## SonnyThomas

Laz, replied while I piddling around. 

All of us in this forum should know it's "what works for you" and repetition until it's second nature, you don't think about. We "rattle" of this and that and what we should be doing is shooting to correct or perfect something about us and within we must learn what we can and can't do. I can't stay within the X ring of 5 spot and can't stay within the 10 ring of a Vegas face, but that doesn't stop me from putting up a decent score. Someone spits something out, my practice range is 35 feet away and my bow is ready and I have enough of about everything to change whatever.


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## ILOVE3D

Whenever I watch video's of some of the pro's shooting I frequently notice differences although minor each one has in their shooting routines and or their form. The thing I do notice is they do the same thing over and over again and this consistency I believe is what makes them very good at what they do. Reading through all of these threads in this forum I am looking for tips that will help me be consistent as well. Things like grip and how you avoid torquing the bow, pin float and how you minimize it, shot execution, straight arm vs bent arm, release execution whether rolling the hinge with fingers or using bt and the rhomboids and the list goes on and on. Some things seem to be easier for me to duplicate than others and over time I can see my groups getting more consistent as well over time. Some things don't work as well as others. I'm not looking for an answer that is going to make me shoot like a pro over night because I realize that it takes many thousands of arrows to really realize what works for ME and what does not. I really do appreciate ALL of your posts here and have re-read several threads just because there is so much good information there and like watching a movie the second time one can pick up things that you missed on the first go around. Some work for me, others have not done so as of yet but it's a work in progress for me. So, thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts and opinions and like stated in another thread, I am looking forward to putting a face to your AT name at one of the shoots.


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## EPLC

*A little experiment*

Here are two faces I just shot. Both are reduced in size to replicate a 20 yard sight picture from 12-13 yards. I shot 10 arrows each at the distances of 3, 7 and 13 yards. At 3 yards all 10 in the same hole. At 7 yards the group was about 2X the size of the 3 yard group, but still very tight. At 13 yards the group was decent... but I had 3 fliers, 2 high and 1 low. Not happy with my 13 yard group, I adjusted my sight to 13 yards and shot another face. This time I actually produced 2 separate groups with the 10 arrows, 4 to the right and 6 to the left. The six to the left could represent my left misses had I been shooting at 20 yards on a full size face. As I reexamine the first 13 yard grouping I can see that with the exception of the 3 flyers the group was actually pretty tight. I'm going to work on my 13 yard range of motion and see if I can improve things a bit.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> Point being: There is no definitive right way to succeed in this sport.
> 
> Back then there was a lot of discussion about this bent vs. straight arm and push vs. pull arguments. The consensus then was straight arm with no push off... but there was also much contradiction. GRIV also posted that just pulling was the way to go then as well, but his writings on "dynamic tension" contradict this as he defines it as a push and pull technique. Because of this I asked him which was correct and he responded that no push was the answer. Being very naïve at the time I changed my form to the "correct" way of not pushing. As BeeS points out I need to find a repeatable form that works for me. I also understand my problems are mostly in my head because I can go from shooting reasonably well to can't hit anything in a heartbeat.


Last January I was in your shoes, I didn't like how I was shooting and I didn't like how I was scoring overall I just wasn't sure of what I was doing. So this is what I did. I don't care if anyone thinks it is the right way or the wrong way to go about it but here it is.
I took note of what I considered my strengths and my weakness. my weakness list was longer than my strength list.
first thing I didn't have my let go phase (Padgett refers to this part as fire engine) automatic enough.

so I shot arrows and learned to let go, independent of what my eye was seeing, I learned to release the arrow anytime I wanted too.
When I decide to release the arrow it is leaving the bow on average in about 500 millisecond's. if a 1second goes by and it isn't gone, I have a let down condition to deal with. 
next I addressed my bow arm and found a better position for it, which improved my float so I can ignore it easier and decide to let go or not. I know if I decide to let it go the arrow is going, no doubts about it.

Taking advice from ELPC I made my rings bigger on my lens which helped with the ignore the float and shoot thing.

next I figured out I was upsetting my float trying to release the arrow. so I changed my cycle to get all the moving around and staging out of the way before I do any aiming. Put in transfer and hold, what I'm doing is staging my self to do my expansion which is going to send the arrow down range. while I am staging my self my sight is jumping and moving a lot, but this isn't my float and it isn't when I shoot. (ELPC calls this part settling down and his problem right now is, he is shooting during this phase which is why he is missing. sight isn't stable enough to hit anything repeatably). 
Only reason I pay attention to the sight is so that my arrow tip position is repeatable from one shot to the next.
Arrow tip position repeatable arrow impact position repeatable. it is rocket science without the propellant equations.
archers need a repeatable stable launch point for the arrow. stable launch pad and small heading error = repeatable accurate arrow flight to the target. (I know some bare bow shooters that do a good job of this without any sights.) 

So it's taken me quite a long time to figure out what works for me. Today I have a very clear mental picture of what it is I want to do when I shoot. for every arrow I physically shoot, I shoot 5 in my mind. I visualize every step in my cycle when I shoot these mental arrows. Now I can practice the things that work for me and see If I can gain any long term improvement. 
Still a work in progress after all these years...


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## EPLC

*Acceptable Range of Motion*

I learned a lot today about my range of motion and believe for the most part my difficulties have been a matter of discipline more than anything else. Since my last post I shot several 30 arrow rounds, one arrow at a time from 13 yards. This time I used a full size FITA 3 spot face instead of the reduced one. I took pictures after each round of 10 arrows to record the groupings, making note. If I can eliminate the flyers I'd be very close to acceptable as my recent work on my range of motion seems to be paying off... at least at shorter ranges. 

After 10 arrows I had a nice little 1/2" group with only one flyer. My 2nd 10 arrow grouping wasn't much larger that the first 10 but I had 2 more flyers. I had more flyers on the 3rd round of 10 showing I got sloppy as I went on.


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## SonnyThomas

Now, do you know why you had a flyer? Did you groan when you knew the shot wasn't going to be right? I don't let flyers get the best of me. I shoot a "let's get it right" shot.


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## subconsciously

Never thought of it as a push - its more like a reach. Bow arm tri-cep and lat.



.02


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Now, do you know why you had a flyer? Did you groan when you knew the shot wasn't going to be right? I don't let flyers get the best of me. I shoot a "let's get it right" shot.


My flyers are due to a couple of things that I have identified and most likely a few that I haven't. The first is I'm not one that likes to wait. I hate lines, delays of any kind and am impatient about a lot of things. I am also very results orientated which feeds my impatience. So, when I set up my shot my impatience to see the result prevents me from setting up properly and I commit before I should. I really need to work on this. The second thing is my release. When it doesn't go smoothly I tend to put too much muscle into the shot. I believe letting down on these would be helpful but may be difficult as I am well past the commitment as this is happening. Still, I need to work this out. As I've mentioned before I also have A.D.D. (Archery Deficit Disorder) which adds to the confusion.



subconsciously said:


> Never thought of it as a push - its more like a reach. Bow arm tri-cep and lat.
> 
> .02


Also found out during my drill today that my best shots were those that I was applying a slight, but constant, forward pressure. I didn't get any flyers on the shots that I was doing this.

I did see improvement today from where I started this morning. Here's my 1st 10 arrow group and my last two.


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## ron w

as read your posts, I would those fliers are the result of "forcing the shot". whether it's forced by struggling with a shot that is taking too long, or pushing a shot off, that hasn't settled in yet, the result is the same....a miss from not running the execution correctly.
that's what shot window timing drills and the let down drills, are for, specifically. one teaches your process to get the shot off at the right time, the other teaches your shot process, not accept, or continue a shot that isn't running well.
as I see it, there's two ways around the fact that you need these two drills in you shooting regimen.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> as read your posts, I would those fliers are the result of "forcing the shot". whether it's forced by struggling with a shot that is taking too long, or pushing a shot off, that hasn't settled in yet, the result is the same....a miss from not running the execution correctly.
> ...


We agree 100%... I don't believe my issues are with form or equipment for the most part as I've worked both of them to death. Not waiting, forcing the shot, pushing off before it's time. This is simply a discipline issue. When I make myself slow down and execute properly I can shoot at a level that I'm almost happy with. When I don't, I don't. I do let down quite a bit but I need to learn to recognize a bad setup earlier in my process in order to let down sooner and perhaps more often.


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## SonnyThomas

Just a thought. Yes, I'm like you, a bit of rushing thing. That quicker shot gives a different impact point. So we must find that right speed. Something else, release position in the hand. My biggest issue is using the same position each and every time and mostly to being bull headed and changing what I have or switching to a release more friendly. Damn pulling posts are too short and barrels not big enough to make the release go to the same place each and every time without thought. The happy medium I have just doesn't get it.... Nothing but me causing my own grief... I have a release coming that has far more adjustment for my big paw.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Just a thought. Yes, I'm like you, a bit of rushing thing. That quicker shot gives a different impact point. So we must find that right speed. Something else, release position in the hand. My biggest issue is using the same position each and every time and mostly to being bull headed and changing what I have or switching to a release more friendly. Damn pulling posts are too short and barrels not big enough to make the release go to the same place each and every time without thought. The happy medium I have just doesn't get it.... Nothing but me causing my own grief... I have a release coming that has far more adjustment for my big paw.


I'm not one with big hands but a release that really works well for me in the Sweet Spot 2. Because the head floats when the safety is on and the sear is built into the head the speed of the release is constant, regardless of where your hand position is when the safety is released. You can set it as fast or slow as you want and it stays there. With standard hinge releases I tend to find the edge of the sear in a short time and freeze on the edge. With the T.R.U. Ball I can't do this.


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## EPLC

Some thoughts on holding steady: When I was a kid I thought that "everything" was a natural ability... you either had it or you didn't. Kids that played ball, etc. just could do it, some couldn't. The idea that one could learn and/or be trained was not a concept that came to mind. I think this notion has manifested itself in me as an archer with regard to holding ability. I've always looked at holding as some sort of natural ability and accepted mine wasn't as good as some others. So instead of specifically working on it I've placed my efforts into my equipment and form to develop things that allowed me to shoot in spite of my weaknesses. I've done reasonably well, both right and left handed, but never really excelled. I think for the first time I'm starting to understand that I can train my hold to be better. Of course everyone has different levels of natural ability and I won't be catching up to Jesse anytime soon but I do see the possibility of there being a light at the end off this tunnel.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> Some thoughts on holding steady: When I was a kid I thought that "everything" was a natural ability... you either had it or you didn't. Kids that played ball, etc. just could do it, some couldn't. The idea that one could learn and/or be trained was not a concept that came to mind. I think this notion has manifested itself in me as an archer with regard to holding ability. I've always looked at holding as some sort of natural ability and accepted mine wasn't as good as some others. So instead of specifically working on it I've placed my efforts into my equipment and form to develop things that allowed me to shoot in spite of my weaknesses. I've done reasonably well, both right and left handed, but never really excelled. I think for the first time I'm starting to understand that I can train my hold to be better. Of course everyone has different levels of natural ability and I won't be catching up to Jesse anytime soon but I do see the possibility of there being a light at the end off this tunnel.


I did, don't see any reason why you can't. Just forget everything and muscle the bow into position and hold it there.
that's what I did and now it doesn't feel like I am using any muscle at all. that's because the muscles have built up over the last 10 months.
then build a shot cycle around your new strong bow arm....


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## Joe Schnur

Bi used to believe in the pure natural ability thing no longer it is turning over all the rocks can put you in world class


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## subconsciously

#11. Don't buy into the prodigy myth. 

“If you have early success, do your best to ignore the praise and keep pushing yourself to the edges of your ability, where improvement happens. If you don’t have early success, don’t quit. Instead, treat your early efforts as experiments, not as verdicts. Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint.”

Coyle, Daniel. “The Little Book of Talent"


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## jwrigley

How apt that I should catch up on this thread at that particular post. Certainly seemed like a marathon read to me. Still, some great nuggets in there. I know how to do it, how I should do it and how I want to do it. It's one thing knowing that to separate the back half of the shot from the front half of the shot is the right thing to do. It's quite another actually doing it when that target is hung up in front of you.

As a friend of mine says, "we're all world champion shots on the blank bale"


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## EPLC

jwrigley said:


> How apt that I should catch up on this thread at that particular post. Certainly seemed like a marathon read to me. Still, some great nuggets in there. I know how to do it, how I should do it and how I want to do it. It's one thing knowing that to separate the back half of the shot from the front half of the shot is the right thing to do. It's quite another actually doing it when that target is hung up in front of you.
> 
> As a friend of mine says, "we're all world champion shots on the blank bale"


Eric Griggs once told me to do exactly that... separate the front half from the back. He also went on to say you shouldn't let one half mess up the other and all you want to be is an observer. This was all very good advise.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Eric Griggs once told me to do exactly that... separate the front half from the back. He also went on to say you shouldn't let one half mess up the other and all you want to be is an observer. This was all very good advise.


Most definitely there is a big difference between both halves working (slow actually) and one side of the back working (fast). Not the hinge, but I can rip a shot with my thumb release using my release side only. My release rhomboid group of muscle is so I can just think and draw my shoulder almost to my ear. My left side I have work to make draw up.


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## fanio

huh?


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Most definitely there is a big difference between both halves working (slow actually) and one side of the back working (fast). Not the hinge, but I can rip a shot with my thumb release using my release side only. My release rhomboid group of muscle is so I can just think and draw my shoulder almost to my ear. My left side I have work to make draw up.


My take on what Eric was saying was this: Your range of motion varies from day to day. If your not holding well on any one particular day, don't let it mess up your release... and visa versa...


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## N7709K

Have fun shooting with only one half... I'll stick to using both


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Have fun shooting with only one half... I'll stick to using both


Of course  

I discovered the root cause for my flyers today and it does involve both halves. If I don't get an even pressure on both ends during my execution I get the flyers. The key and my weak link is in the front end. Once setup properly I have to start the push just slightly ahead of my pull to get things headed in the right direction. It's actually more of a forward/backward expansion than a push/pull and I also can't over muscle the shot or the timing gets messed up. A strong shot, yes, but not overpowering. I'm so pleased to have gotten the feel of this... the only problem is my rhomboids can only take so many shots and they hurt.


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## SonnyThomas

"You're left hand, shoot left handed." Wife bought me a left handed Fred Bear Whitetail II. Bow felt good with weight turned down, but second week of shooting left handed my left shoulder separated, torn rhomboids or group. Muscles swelled to the point they cut off the nerve or bundle of nerves to the arm, same nerve or bundle of nerves where people have surgery, Carpal and Cubical (I've had both, left hand and elbow). Lost the use of left arm. I was scared to death. 6 weeks later I got the use of my arm back. Scar tissue left me with a pretty good clunk.

Before I retired in 2003 I was gaging a part inside my machine and slipped. Managed to catch myself and still hold on to a gage 54" long. I tore muscles from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. Think multiple degree sunburn. Rushed to the hospital, everyone thinking I was having a heart attack. I couldn't raise my arms to take off my shirt so the doctor cut it right up the middle of the back. They gave me enough shots I was goofy. Nothing can really be done except let heal. That and a lot pills to keep the pain down and a few trips to the doctor for muscle relaxer shots. Oh, you don't sit back in a chair and driving....Lord! So I was off work for a while. 

So age ain't helping. When my back works, back tension like it should be, I can get off a fairly clean shot and the arrow goes behind the pin. Tired, right side takes over and here comes a ripping shot. If I can control it I can get off a decent shot. Too fast and right goes the arrow mixed with some low rights.

With all the back injuries I've had over the years it's wonder I can even walk, not alone shoot a bow; Broken back, neck shoved out of place (from the bow above), slipped and ruptured discs, all muscles from lower back to neck tore at one time or another. One doctor showed me the X-rays of my back. It looked like a train wreck. Doctor; "No way on God's green earth should you have been able to walk in here." Guess I was too dumb to know that.


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## holler head

Something that has not been mentioned is holding weight, I have been shooting a long time and remember the old wheel bows with 50% letoff.

Holding weight is different than pulling into the limbs to get the weight that you want, it;s a lot easier to balance the front and back sides with a higher holding weight.
With todays high let off bows, you roll over into 12 to 14 lbs and then try to pull into the stops enough to settle your pin, hard to keep the balence the same front to back.

I have seen it on here before, but get you a 25 to 30 lb recurve and shoot it with a hinge, talk about shooting a strong balanced shot. Just something more to think about:wink:


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## EPLC

I haven't shot more than 13 yards this week but I'm happy with the progress (not perfection) I've seen. I'm headed to my club this morning to see if I can translate my learning's to 20 yards. I won't score as I just want to see my grouping.


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> I haven't shot more than 13 yards this week but I'm happy with the progress (not perfection) I've seen. I'm headed to my club this morning to see if I can translate my learning's to 20 yards. I won't score as I just want to see my grouping.


Me thinks you mmay be jumping off that 13 yards a little too quickly just to see how things "might be" at 20 yards. You should leave the 13 yds when you are *sure* how your 20 yard groups will be based on your efforts and results at 13 yds. JMO.....


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## SonnyThomas

The Dark Force, Darth Vegas... How are you with the 5 spot? It does take that tiny x out of the picture.


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## Rick!

holler head said:


> Something that has not been mentioned is holding weight, I have been shooting a long time and remember the old wheel bows with 50% letoff.
> 
> Holding weight is different than pulling into the limbs to get the weight that you want, it;s a lot easier to balance the front and back sides with a higher holding weight.
> With todays high let off bows, you roll over into 12 to 14 lbs and then try to pull into the stops enough to settle your pin, hard to keep the balence the same front to back.
> 
> I have seen it on here before, but get you a 25 to 30 lb recurve and shoot it with a hinge, talk about shooting a strong balanced shot. Just something more to think about:wink:


Agree. Replaced #77's with #98's on my PCE XL last night and upped my holding weight by 5lbs. Took an ounce off the front and added one on the lh rear and float is reduced a lot. The hw increase also helps eliminate my "bow push release engine" and the resultant left poi. For me, balancing front and back half loading is way easier with increased hw compared to short dw/heavy front stab combo on light limbs.


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## N7709K

There is zero point shooting a blue face- all it does is devalue a "miss". If you want to advance your game you shoot blue face maybe 5 times a year, and those are all usually in comp. 

That said, why do you feel shooting a blue face will be beneficial?


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## ILOVE3D

N7709K said:


> There is zero point shooting a blue face- all it does is devalue a "miss". If you want to advance your game you shoot blue face maybe 5 times a year, and those are all usually in comp.
> 
> That said, why do you feel shooting a blue face will be beneficial?


In the past, whenever I wanted to feel good (false feeling) about my shooting progress I just put up a 5 spot and then shot a high 290's and even 300's. I put on a Vegas target and was immediately brought back to reality shooting from 20 yards.(not so good) After finding this I-A section several months ago and working on things I must am finally putting things together. I have yet to shoot a Vegas face from 20 yards for score because I am still working on perfecting my shorter distances with score. I have shot the Vegas face from 20 yards but not for score, just to work on my float which I might add is improving for me using my Scott Longhorn pro advantgage's. Another good feeling happened two days ago when the rubber band broke on the Scott I had set up without the click. I reached into my quiver and broke out my spare that was set up with a clicker and I didn't miss a beat as far as float and getting off good shots where the arrow went behind my dot. Still a lot of work to be done here and enjoying it all finally noticing I am slowly moving on to the next level, whatever that may be. I really appreciate all the info going on back and forth on here from you advanced shooters and thanks for taking the time to share.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> Me thinks you mmay be jumping off that 13 yards a little too quickly just to see how things "might be" at 20 yards. You should leave the 13 yds when you are *sure* how your 20 yard groups will be based on your efforts and results at 13 yds. JMO.....


Maybe, maybe not... I started out poorly and found my ability to repeat what I had learned at 13 more difficult than I had hoped for. After 3 practice arrows in the face #1, I repeated the same drill at 20 yards as I had done in my basement, 10 arrows into each face, one at a time. While I did have some tightly grouped arrows, I also had way too many flyers. First face had 2 flyers (9/8) on first two shots then I shot clean. The second face was a train wreck. The 3rd attempt had 2 misses, both low 9's. That's when I had the epiphany


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## EPLC

*The Epiphany*

As I was shooting today, trying very hard to get the balance even with my push and pull the thought came to mind, "just draw the bow"... I had read/heard this before but the words never really sunk in... they registered in my brain as "blah, blah, blah". Does this make sense to me now! No more trying to get the balance even between the front and back... just continue to draw the freaking bow! This was my face number 3 after 10 arrows and then again with 20 more shots in it from 20 yards. What a difference!


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## Padgett

Eplc, I just read all of the last few posts and I am hoping the best for you but the one thing I want to comment on in the last couple pictures where the shooting looks better is the fact that if you look at the holes you will notice that out of all of them only one arrow was over the baby vegas x and it is on the right side on the outside looking in at the 10 ring.

Basically when I see this I know I am not sighted in dead on and am on the low side of the 10 ring and if you put a click or two in your sight and raise the groups that I am looking at about a quarter inch as a whole then many more of the shots would have been on the inside of the 10 ring.


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## montigre

Agreed here. As soon as you see a discernible pattern developing on the Vegas face, do not hesitate to put a few clicks in your sight. While showing overall improvement, by the time you have a gaping hole outside of the baby 10 as you did on your 3#, you've already given up the game to the other competitors. Better to get use to being aggressive with your sight now during practice so you won't sit on it too long during a competition and needlessly give away points.


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## EPLC

You are correct, the group is a tad low. But, since I was shooting with the intent of analyzing the grouping I was unwilling to make any sight adjustments once I started shooting.


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> There is zero point shooting a blue face- all it does is devalue a "miss". If you want to advance your game you shoot blue face maybe 5 times a year, and those are all usually in comp.
> 
> That said, why do you feel shooting a blue face will be beneficial?


For me, the X ring of 5 spot is the same size as the 10 ring on the Vegas. 10s count, Xs don't, not until a shoot off or for events that count it as -1-. If you can get one hole groups going on the 5 spot, then 10s should come easier on the Vegas and X ring hits should follow. Insane, but people worry about that tiny X instead just getting a clean end. No X, no worry.


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## N7709K

Is it really about inner 10's? Or is it that blue face has a 3" ring that all scores the same where as Vegas has only a 1.5" ring? Blue face will make your game loose and sloppy- there's a reason we don't shoot it often...


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Is it really about inner 10's? Or is it that blue face has a 3" ring that all scores the same where as Vegas has only a 1.5" ring? Blue face will make your game loose and sloppy- there's a reason we don't shoot it often...


 I run a spot league for 22 weeks starting 11/5 that alternates a Vegas 450 and NFAA 300 every other week. I'll take the Vegas round any day over the NFAA blue & white 300. Always have, always will. In my local area we have a mix of 6 clubs and Archery shops that run spot shoots every weekend starting this Saturday evening throughout the winter. Until this year they were 100% B&W 300 rounds. This year (after some prodding) they are going to sprinkle in quite a few 450 Vegas rounds. I can't tell you how happy I am about this change of heart.


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## ron w

vegas face is tough, thise x-rings are small....tiny small...... but it is surely more fun to shoot than blue and white 300 round.
on the blue face worry about x's on the vegas face, I just want to stay in the 10 ring ! only shot one 300 vegas in my life. best Vegas tournament score was 297x17, shot on Saturday morning, first line, second year I was there. ....2005, I think.
never had more fun shooting my bow at a tournament. I felt like a little guppy, in a sea of big sharks, but it was a blast.
tried several times to get a vegas league started at my club, but no interest.


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## SonnyThomas

The shop I worked at never had the Vegas face for league as per vote of those shooting. When I shot at Presley's in league action it was the 5 spot. The IAA has their Indoor Championship using the 5 spot, two days, 60 arrows per day. Motion for the Vegas for the Championship came to a vote and it was crushed by the majority of IAA members. A trial additional event using the Vegas in conjunction with the Championship was also crushed by the membership. The IAA has one Aggregate per Zone (3). This is a combination of the 5 spot (60 arrows) and the Vegas face (60 arrows). I won it once in two years. When Presley's held the Midwest Indoor Championship it was the 5 spot (60 arrows) and the Vegas face (30 arrows). Last I shot at Wolf Hollow it was the 5 spot. Rushville shop, closed now, used the 5 spot. No club or shop that I know of shot 450 events. 
So we don't shoot a lot of the Vegas face. So anything I put forth comes from not the Vegas all that much.
Me, if you can't shoot a 300 on the 5 spot I don't see how you can shoot a 300, 450 or 600 on the Vegas face.

I've turned down shooting the Midwest Open now being held in Bloomington, Illinois. Said was the yellow 5 spot was going to be used the rules show the blue 5 spot and the Vegas face. Xs count as -1-. Record score is held by Chance B., 689. I know Scott Starnes shot a 688.


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## Joe Schnur

Must maintain competition behaviors in practice if a low pattern is there after 3 arrows adjust to center don't accept a non centered pattern or you will do it in competition.


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> Is it really about inner 10's? Or is it that blue face has a 3" ring that all scores the same where as Vegas has only a 1.5" ring? Blue face will make your game loose and sloppy- there's a reason we don't shoot it often...


You're missing my point. I'm referring to the X ring of the 5 spot, not the 3" bull's eye. Use the X ring for the 10 ring. The same pattern is there if you use the bottoms and center.


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## montigre

Heading out to shoot a little after work this afternoon. Current conditions are partly sunny with winds out of the NW at 10 to 20 mph....guess the float is going to be a little extreme today....lol!!


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> Me thinks you mmay be jumping off that 13 yards a little too quickly just to see how things "might be" at 20 yards. You should leave the 13 yds when you are *sure* how your 20 yard groups will be based on your efforts and results at 13 yds. JMO.....


After shooting this morning at 20 and finding it more difficult than yesterday to get the proper feel I went back to 13 and shot this target (10 arrows). I think I'll have to work on the transition to 20 a bit more slowly but 13 is starting to look half way decent.


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## Reverend

Nice job EPLC...


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## EPLC

*2 Vegas 300 Rounds*

Thanks Reverend. This morning I went down to my club and since nobody was shooting inside I decided to shoot a Vegas 300 round from 15 yards. I ended up shooting 2 rounds and then moved to 20 and shot a NFAA Field "Bunny" face. The first round produced a 297 19X with 9's in the 2nd, 4th and 8th ends. The second 300 round went better with a 299 21X with the 9 in the second end. After the second round I hung a Bunny face and shot for about 15 minutes from 20 yards. After a sight adjustment after the first 2 shots that were kind of low I couldn't miss, not one arrow out of the black with most (if not all) being X's. My "just draw the bow" execution seems to be working out quite well.


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## jwrigley

I was reading this thread about the 5 metre drill so I decided to do one of my own. I videoed it for a laugh.


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## Reverend

jwrigley said:


> I was reading this thread about the 5 metre drill so I decided to do one of my own. I videoed it for a laugh.


Man you shoot fast...


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> Thanks Reverend. This morning I went down to my club and since nobody was shooting inside I decided to shoot a Vegas 300 round from 15 yards. I ended up shooting 2 rounds and then moved to 20 and shot a NFAA Field "Bunny" face. The first round produced a 297 19X with 9's in the 2nd, 4th and 8th ends. The second 300 round went better with a 299 21X with the 9 in the second end. After the second round I hung a Bunny face and shot for about 15 minutes from 20 yards. After a sight adjustment after the first 2 shots that were kind of low I couldn't miss, not one arrow out of the black with most (if not all) being X's. My "just draw the bow" execution seems to be working out quite well.


So your float is getting more acceptable for you? 
Now you can do just like Field 14 stays, 
Ignore the float and just shoot the shot. 
( it's a lot easier to ignore a small float than a big one.)


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> So your float is getting more acceptable for you?
> Now you can do just like Field 14 stays,
> Ignore the float and just shoot the shot.
> ( it's a lot easier to ignore a small float than a big one.)


Yes, my float has improved or as I like to call it, "Range of Motion". I don't like to call it hold because in my mind that assumes I'm doing the holding. I believe the current improvement in my range of motion is the result of the entire process, not something I do separate to that process. It's funny because I came into this topic very skeptical, believing your range of motion was what it was and you just had to shoot around it. As a result I had never "really" worked on settling things down by analyzing my entire process and making adjustments based on float. I was always changing my equipment to try and get things slowed down a bit, hoping for the best. I'm just starting to build confidence in my newly found self so I still have a lot of work to do, but thanks to the learning's I've picked up here my direction is clear, probably for the first time. My current plan is to improve on my 15 yard shooting until this (pictured) is a bad day and then move out to 20.


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## Joe Schnur

Today I added 2 ounces to the front bar and went from 291's to 298 23x felt a lot better even when it felt like a bad shot it was an x following the thread as I tuned in and refined things has really helped great thread


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## EPLC

Joe Schnur said:


> Today I added 2 ounces to the front bar and went from 291's to 298 23x felt a lot better even when it felt like a bad shot it was an x following the thread as I tuned in and refined things has really helped great thread


Having the proper bow balance certainly helps. I haven't mentioned much about it here but I've been tweaking the bow along with my form to improve my range of motion. Hey, I even switched bows from my Supra to my Dominator, added weights, changed stabilizer's several times along the way. My Dominator weighs in at a whopping 8.5# right now.


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## EPLC

*Still working 15 Yard*

I seem to be stuck in the 297-299 range at 15 yards, although in all fairness I've only done this for a couple of days as I didn't shoot at all yesterday. I'm finding the requirements for shooting a clean 300 are the same as if you were shooting longer distances. While the distance is certainly shorter I still have to make every shot count or they go in the 9... Today I shot 2 rounds, 299 18X and a 297 22X. I am making mostly good shots which is encouraging but I still need to tighten up my discipline more. Although pretty good right now, I think my range of motion could be better as well. I may try just a tad longer on my d-loop for tomorrow.


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## SonnyThomas

ELPC, you taking pictures of your groups or keeping your targets? Thinking possible a pattern and maybe a click here or there to shift pattern for a point more.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> ELPC, you taking pictures of your groups or keeping your targets? Thinking possible a pattern and maybe a click here or there to shift pattern for a point more.


Unfortunately my misses have been just that, misses. My groups have been centered nicely but I have been getting a little shake just before release. I increased my loop length by 1/8 this evening which seems to have smoothed things out a tad. I'll know better tomorrow.


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## ILOVE3D

EPLC said:


> Thanks Reverend. This morning I went down to my club and since nobody was shooting inside I decided to shoot a Vegas 300 round from 15 yards. I ended up shooting 2 rounds and then moved to 20 and shot a NFAA Field "Bunny" face. The first round produced a 297 19X with 9's in the 2nd, 4th and 8th ends. The second 300 round went better with a 299 21X with the 9 in the second end. After the second round I hung a Bunny face and shot for about 15 minutes from 20 yards. After a sight adjustment after the first 2 shots that were kind of low I couldn't miss, not one arrow out of the black with most (if not all) being X's. My "just draw the bow" execution seems to be working out quite well.


Forgive me EPLC because I am not as good a shooter as you but definitely trying to move to the next level. I am guessing you shot two rounds at the same target face and just myself looking at your groups I see similarities in some of my targets. For one, my groups from target 2 (upper) are centered in different spots than targets 1 and 3. Is this a common thing (asking for answers here)? Also, when I get that many holes in one target and the 10 spot is shot up and dark, I tend to allow my pin to be off centered when the shot goes off and this I am guessing because I tend to get more misses or just outside the ever expanding hole. I am thinking I just need to keep to the 10 arrows per target (30 arrows) on a Vegas face. Suggestions anybody?


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## N7709K

is the left right string a pretty common thing?


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## Joe Schnur

Actually most of us try for a nicely centered hole on the first shot and center up on that hole as your eye is drawn to it anyways . Fix your holes each end if they are not perfect and you should be fine but a vegas 3 spot gets shot up pretty quick and there is not a lot of x ring to shoot at if you don't fix your holes.


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## EPLC

ILOVE3D said:


> Forgive me EPLC because I am not as good a shooter as you but definitely trying to move to the next level. I am guessing you shot two rounds at the same target face and just myself looking at your groups I see similarities in some of my targets. For one, my groups from target 2 (upper) are centered in different spots than targets 1 and 3. Is this a common thing (asking for answers here)? Also, when I get that many holes in one target and the 10 spot is shot up and dark, I tend to allow my pin to be off centered when the shot goes off and this I am guessing because I tend to get more misses or just outside the ever expanding hole. I am thinking I just need to keep to the 10 arrows per target (30 arrows) on a Vegas face. Suggestions anybody?


Yes I shot 2 Vegas 300 rounds on that face. You ask: is it common for different patterns to develop on each spot; it certainly has been for me. I always seem to have one spot that I can't miss, one that gives me some trouble and one somewhere in between. I use a large circle so I tend to drill the darkest spot rather than avoiding it.


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## Bees

N7709K said:


> is the left right string a pretty common thing?


My targets look a lot like EPLC's and yep the left to right string is common for me.
so what do you recommend?



> Unfortunately my misses have been just that, misses. My groups have been centered nicely but I have been getting a little shake just before release. I increased my loop length by 1/8 this evening which seems to have smoothed things out a tad. I'll know better tomorrow.


Are you hesitating during your release action? Not Pulling thru the shot smoothly????


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> is the left right string a pretty common thing?


You bet cha... and I struggled this morning to get anything going. I shot for about 3 hours at 15 yards and was quite sloppy until the last hour. Then realized that I was all wrapped up in score and not really working on my execution and certainly not learning anything. After I buckled down and forced myself to focus I put together a not-as-sloppy 297 19X followed with a 299 25X. I had an unexplained right flyer in the 5th end of the 299 that was out quite a bit. The Vegas face is typical of what I'm getting at 15 yards although the high 9 on the bottom left spot was due to a sight jump.


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## ron w

Joe Schnur said:


> Actually most of us try for a nicely centered hole on the first shot and center up on that hole as your eye is drawn to it anyways . Fix your holes each end if they are not perfect and you should be fine but a vegas 3 spot gets shot up pretty quick and there is not a lot of x ring to shoot at if you don't fix your holes.


 exatly, we all try to get those first few arrows in the center. our eyes are drawn to the hole or the dark spot in the target. years ago, that is part of the reason they changed from a single spot to a 5-spot target. the complaints of arrow loss were getting so frequent because of this concentric attraction phenomena, of our aim being drawn to the clump of fletching in a single spot target, that the NFAA decided to change to an individual spot for each arrow shot in an end....and the "5 spot" target, was born. the other part was that the x-ring was getting so shot out, it was wasting too much time scoring between ends in big tournaments and too many tournaments were ending in shoot offs...all because of the same reason.
it's important to get those first arrows in the center, especially with the big shafts we all shoot these days. a couple holes, not centered, either high or low, or to one side of the x-ring will drift the entire round in the same general direction, if you "let it". and it's sometimes pretty hard, not to "let it" happen. two arrows next to each other, just about wipes out the X-ring on vegas face. you look at some of the top pros' vegas targets, and you can almost see the entire X-ring, all the way around their hole.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> exatly, we all try to get those first few arrows in the center. our eyes are drawn to the hole or the dark spot in the target. years ago, that is part of the reason they changed from a single spot to a 5-spot target. the complaints of arrow loss were getting so frequent because of this concentric attraction phenomena, of our aim being drawn to the clump of fletching in a single spot target, that the NFAA decided to change to an individual spot for each arrow shot in an end....and the "5 spot" target, was born. the other part was that the x-ring was getting so shot out, it was wasting too much time scoring between ends in big tournaments and too many tournaments were ending in shoot offs...all because of the same reason.
> it's important to get those first arrows in the center, especially with the big shafts we all shoot these days. a couple holes, not centered, either high or low, or to one side of the x-ring will drift the entire round in the same general direction, if you "let it". and it's sometimes pretty hard, not to "let it" happen. two arrows next to each other, just about wipes out the X-ring on vegas face. you look at some of the top pros' vegas targets, and you can almost see the entire X-ring, all the way around their hole.


"and the "5 spot" target, was born"... The birth was actually a 4 spot


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## N7709K

relax the hands(especially this one), pay attention to the the balance of pressure between the halves, work dl to get alignment and balance between the halves better and work bars to bring the left/right string to a minimum.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> You bet cha... and I struggled this morning to get anything going. I shot for about 3 hours at 15 yards and was quite sloppy until the last hour. Then realized that I was all wrapped up in score and not really working on my execution and certainly not learning anything. After I buckled down and forced myself to focus I put together a not-as-sloppy 297 19X followed with a 299 25X. I had an unexplained right flyer in the 5th end of the 299 that was out quite a bit. The Vegas face is typical of what I'm getting at 15 yards although the high 9 on the bottom left spot was due to a sight jump.


Yep, I call that the short range trap. focusing on score, and not on your process.
and the trap door swings shut and your caught in the trap. 
then you will say short range practice does you no good.


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## N7709K

Much of that if caused by moving back too quickly and not starting close enough- when you move back the score shouldn't be a thought, you are a 30x shooter and that is what is expected as you move back. All it takes to preform and shoot your "average" is running the same shot each time. When the entire focus is put on shooting good shots because the score is known it becomes much more effective.


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## ron w

Bees said:


> Yep, I call that the short range trap. focusing on score, and not on your process.
> and the trap door swings shut and your caught in the trap.
> then you will say short range practice does you no good.


 EXACTLY !!!. 
it seems people's thinking gets reversed when they move up. the large bulls eye is so that you don't have to work to stay in it and you can concentrate on form and execution, rather than producing score. simply put the part that is hard at 20 yards, now becomes the easy part, so you don't have to concentrate on that.
it teaches your shot process, that's it "good" to be in the center and that's where it should be to perform the best, when you get all consumed about producing that perfect score, because you're shooting at short distance, you don't learn what you should be learning. that perfect score, "itself" means nothing,.... what matters is just how perfectly that perfect score was produced.


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## Lazarus

Bees said:


> Yep, I call that the short range trap. focusing on score, and not on your process.


I gave him the 99.9% cure for that about two weeks ago. As many targets as he's hung it appears he's done just the opposite since I shared the key with him.  No offense ELPC. Appears to be true though. :wink:


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> I gave him the 99.9% cure for that about two weeks ago. As many targets as he's hung it appears he's done just the opposite since I shared the key with him.  No offense ELPC. Appears to be true though. :wink:


I think some of you have not considered that I'm actually doing OK with my efforts. Since 10/24 I've shot six Vegas 300 rounds from 15 yards with scores of 297 19X, 299 21X, 299 18X, 297 22X, 298 19X and 299 25X. Moving back to 7 yards I shot 2 rounds for score that were 300 29X and 300 30X. Today I shot 2 Vegas rounds from 10 yards that were 300 27X and 300 29X. I felt very good about my execution from 10 yards and found an alignment issue and corrected it. While I may have some hurdles to overcome, which is expected, I believe my direction is sound to this point. As far as taking time off to train... well that isn't going to happen as I'll be 69 in 2 weeks. My indoor season starts this coming Saturday and I have a full schedule all through the winter months...


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## N7709K

where do you want to end up?


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> "and the "5 spot" target, was born"... The birth was actually a 4 spot


Got that in one of my Archery magazines. I'll have to look, but I think it wasn't really used.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> I think some of you have not considered that I'm actually doing OK with my efforts. Since 10/24 I've shot six Vegas 300 rounds from 15 yards with scores of 297 19X, 299 21X, 299 18X, 297 22X, 298 19X and 299 25X. Moving back to 7 yards I shot 2 rounds for score that were 300 29X and 300 30X. Today I shot 2 Vegas rounds from 10 yards that were 300 27X and 300 29X. I felt very good about my execution from 10 yards and found an alignment issue and corrected it. While I may have some hurdles to overcome, which is expected, I believe my direction is sound to this point. As far as taking time off to train... well that isn't going to happen as I'll be 69 in 2 weeks. My indoor season starts this coming Saturday and I have a full schedule all through the winter months...


69 years old. League starts tomorrow. You just might find out you're better than you are. Hey, good luck.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> where do you want to end up?


I'd like to get to the point where shooting a 300 Vegas is the rule, not the exception. Once there I'll have a better understanding of how to better answer your question.


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## ron w

wouldn't we all !.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> I think some of you have not considered that I'm actually doing OK with my efforts. Since 10/24 I've shot six Vegas 300 rounds from 15 yards with scores of 297 19X, 299 21X, 299 18X, 297 22X, 298 19X and 299 25X. Moving back to 7 yards I shot 2 rounds for score that were 300 29X and 300 30X. Today I shot 2 Vegas rounds from 10 yards that were 300 27X and 300 29X. I felt very good about my execution from 10 yards and found an alignment issue and corrected it. While I may have some hurdles to overcome, which is expected, I believe my direction is sound to this point. As far as taking time off to train... well that isn't going to happen as I'll be 69 in 2 weeks. My indoor season starts this coming Saturday and I have a full schedule all through the winter months...


Kudo's to you ELPC. I have on numerous occasions said how much I respect your drive to excel at 69. The above message is a good one. However, as one who follows this forum even if I'm not posting I have seen the frustration in your posts at times. If you are comfortable with how you are progressing that's awesome. 

As far as scoring, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll stay with; it's never about score, it's always about process. And as far as the pro's who recommend scoring every time they shoot, that's because they are already shooting perfect (process driven shots) and for all practical purposes they must score just to see the very minor nuances in their game.

I'd lay money if you never scored an arrow in *practice,* all you did was what I told you, the first tournament it would pay off. I tend to live my life in a "to each his own" fashion though so I sincerely wish ya the best with your shooting.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Kudo's to you ELPC. I have on numerous occasions said how much I respect your drive to excel at 69. The above message is a good one. However, as one who follows this forum even if I'm not posting I have seen the frustration in your posts at times. If you are comfortable with how you are progressing that's awesome.
> 
> As far as scoring, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll stay with; it's never about score, it's always about process. And as far as the pro's who recommend scoring every time they shoot, that's because they are already shooting perfect (process driven shots) and for all practical purposes they must score just to see the very minor nuances in their game.
> 
> I'd lay money if you never scored an arrow in *practice,* all you did was what I told you, the first tournament it would pay off. I tend to live my life in a "to each his own" fashion though so I sincerely wish ya the best with your shooting.


Lazarus, Since you continue to bring it up. I have used a process similar to your "cure" off and on for some time. I actually designed a target face (actually several) to shoot this method. You also mentioned that you took two full years off to devote yourself to this training method. While I admire your ability to do this, at my age time is not a luxury. That said, I continue to use all the tools at my disposal, and appreciate the help and suggestions offered by you and others. But in the final analysis it is I that has to make decisions as to what I can or will work into my preparations. Hopefully I can make informed decisions based on the all of the information presented.


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> I think some of you have not considered that I'm actually doing OK with my efforts. Since 10/24 I've shot six Vegas 300 rounds from 15 yards with scores of 297 19X, 299 21X, 299 18X, 297 22X, 298 19X and 299 25X. Moving back to 7 yards I shot 2 rounds for score that were 300 29X and 300 30X. Today I shot 2 Vegas rounds from 10 yards that were 300 27X and 300 29X. I felt very good about my execution from 10 yards and found an alignment issue and corrected it. While I may have some hurdles to overcome, which is expected, I believe my direction is sound to this point. As far as taking time off to train... well that isn't going to happen as I'll be 69 in 2 weeks. My indoor season starts this coming Saturday and I have a full schedule all through the winter months...


EPLC.
Do you have any Idea of what is really going on inside your body when your doing any activity?
here is how it was explained to me while I was trying to learn to play the key board.
You conscious mind decides it wants to do an activity, your subconscious mind says OK lets do it.
so you try and you find out your not very good at it(any activity) (shooting bow playing keyboard).
so you quit for the day and you will do it again tomorrow. Now just because you have stopped thinking about the activity
your subconscious mind hasn't and it gets to working on getting things hooked up so you can get better at the activity. If you continue with the activity(doing it every day for a little while, the subconscious works on it even when you not thinking about it.)
it decides what muscles it needs to use and how it needs to use them, if it doesn't have control of the muscles it has to get nerve endings and neuron's and all the stuff in place to use the muscles so that you can gain the results your demanding. Nothing new for your subconscious mind to do, as it has been doing this for you from at least birth. 
So now your demanding more perfection from your shooting. the process your subconscious mind has in place isn't good enough for you anymore.
Now your subconscious mind has to get more muscle and more stuff involved so you can realize your goal. in other words your subconscious mind has to make some changes in its routine and it will. But it takes time. how much Time? depends on how much growth hormone you have left in your body.
for us older guys we don't have a lot left so it takes longer than a younger person would.

so in your archery endeavor for every muscle your conscious mind knows about,your subconscious is controlling a whole bunch more than you can imagine in ways you can't imagine. given time it will get things working so your new goal is achieved.

for me my goal was to hold the bow steadier, a lot steadier, when I started I consciously did what I could to hold steady.
as time went by, my subconscious mind has gotten all the correct muscles involved and I don't have to work as hard to hold steady.
So I demand to be steadier , and with time I will be. I Just have to let the process work, and so do you...


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> EPLC.
> Do you have any Idea of what is really going on inside your body when your doing any activity?
> here is how it was explained to me while I was trying to learn to play the key board.
> You conscious mind decides it wants to do an activity, your subconscious mind says OK lets do it.
> so you try and you find out your not very good at it(any activity) (shooting bow playing keyboard).
> so you quit for the day and you will do it again tomorrow. Now just because you have stopped thinking about the activity
> your subconscious mind hasn't and it gets to working on getting things hooked up so you can get better at the activity. If you continue with the activity(doing it every day for a little while, the subconscious works on it even when you not thinking about it.)
> it decides what muscles it needs to use and how it needs to use them, if it doesn't have control of the muscles it has to get nerve endings and neuron's and all the stuff in place to use the muscles so that you can gain the results your demanding. Nothing new for your subconscious mind to do, as it has been doing this for you from at least birth.
> So now your demanding more perfection from your shooting. the process your subconscious mind has in place isn't good enough for you anymore.
> Now your subconscious mind has to get more muscle and more stuff involved so you can realize your goal. in other words your subconscious mind has to make some changes in its routine and it will. But it takes time. how much Time? depends on how much growth hormone you have left in your body.
> for us older guys we don't have a lot left so it takes longer than a younger person would.
> 
> so in your archery endeavor for every muscle your conscious mind knows about,your subconscious is controlling a whole bunch more than you can imagine in ways you can't imagine. given time it will get things working so your new goal is achieved.
> 
> for me my goal was to hold the bow steadier, a lot steadier, when I started I consciously did what I could to hold steady.
> as time went by, my subconscious mind has gotten all the correct muscles involved and I don't have to work as hard to hold steady.
> So I demand to be steadier , and with time I will be. I Just have to let the process work, and so do you...


A very good way of putting it. I mentioned this before but will put it out there again. Up until recently I've not really worked on the physical to look for ways to improve my range of motion. It was always equipment related adjustments. Now that I'm finally working on the physical rather than the hardware end of the equation I'm seeing some pretty decent progress in my holding ability. Of course I've also had to tweak the equipment along the way as the entire system had to be coordinated but it's no longer a one way street. Of course this improvement has all been at 7-15 yards so time will tell if I can translate this to the real world... but I'm hopeful. Our first shoot is tomorrow night at one of our local clubs so I'll be tested much too early in this process.


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## ghostbaits

Preach on Jacob! Hey, get the correct arrow set up too. If your arrow is wrong, all this other work gets really frustrating. 

Jim


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Lazarus, Since you continue to bring it up. I have used a process similar to your "cure" off and on for some time. I actually designed a target face (actually several)


Love your targets ELPC!! Awesome! In reality what you were doing was saving targets. Your brain was till hoping to see one tiny hole in each of those dots at the end of the day. The method I am talking about gives you a lot less visual feedback (both good and bad) which is a good thing. The only time you get to reward yourself with results is on tournament day. You have to condition your mind not to care so much where the hole ends up. Then you can shoot to your potential. It appears you're doing great. Nothin I can do to help ya. Again, the best!


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## Padgett

Been shooting indoor all week and last night about a a hour and a half into my shooting I finally missed a x, I hadn't missed this week in about a total of 4.5 hours of shooting without break. I have been the only one on the range all week and haven't had to wait for anyone so I can just shoot and go pull and then shoot again. I have been feeling some fatigue towards the end of the sessions and last night it got me. I had came to anchor and started my engine and I was floating just fine and about 3 seconds into the shot I realized that I wasn't doing anything so I tried to start my engine and I just wandered off the x with the effort. It wasn't a jerk but a poor decision to start a engine when the shot wasn't right from the start. 

My thing right now is that my shooting is coming down to being able to recognize a good shot and then being able to know what things made it a good shot from form to firing engine to floating to mental attitude before and during and after the shot. Then I have to repeat that shot over and over and over.

A few years ago I would shoot and only have a few of those good shots per day and I enjoyed them but I ignored the things that allowed them to happen. Then I made the decision to take a step back every time I had one and think about all of the things that made it a good shot and then try and do it again. In the beginning I couldn't really do it again, the good shots just happened. But over time I started to nail down the little things that all added up to a good shot.

Right now for me I am staying inside the 5-spot x or vegas 10 ring for hundreds of shots at a time only missing maybe once a week so my general group is that small at 20 yards, what I am focusing on is the really good shots that allow the x to be dead center. Those shots feel different than my normal good shot and right now I can't really put a finger on what is allowing them to feel so freaking good but yesterday was a really strong day and I had probably 10 trips to the target where all three arrows were dead center and I was able to on those shots to duplicate the feeling over and over.

So basically right now my I have progressed to keeping my arrows on the inner edge of the 5-spot ring almost 100% of the time and I can feel the difference between them and dead center shots, so I am trying to figure out what that difference is and then work on making that perfect dead center shot my normal shot. I actually think it is going to happen, why not? Just a couple years ago I was excited to shoot 5 5-spot x's in a row and only did that once or so a visit to the shooting range, now I have obviously progressed but that doesn't mean that I can't use the same approach to try and make it to the next level.

1. Let the poor shots go mentally, just let them go.

2. shoot until you shoot a shot that just felt really freaking good and hit right where you wanted to.

3. Take a step back and visualize what you felt like and what you did to fire and what you floating like etc.

4. Try and duplicate that shot.

Soon, that shot will become reality and repeated hundreds of times in a row. Then you will start feeling even better feeling shots and you repeat the process.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> In the beginning I couldn't really do it again, the good shots just happened...


Yes, I have that step one down pretty good... It's that step 2 that is bothersome  I'm taking today off, no shooting, no scoring... Maybe I'll have some candy later.


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## Padgett

I failed with step 1 last night, I was so stinking upset with myself to let that shot leave my bow. I only had about 10 minutes of shooting left and It bothered me the whole time I finished shooting. To me there is just no reason to send a arrow to a target when you already know that things aren't right and I totally let that happen.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> I failed with step 1 last night, I was so stinking upset with myself to let that shot leave my bow. I only had about 10 minutes of shooting left and It bothered me the whole time I finished shooting. To me there is just no reason to send a arrow to a target when you already know that things aren't right and I totally let that happen.


I think sometimes I downplay my current shooting abilities in an effort to improve... I actually shoot reasonably well more than I don't. One of the problems I've had in the past was the lack of understanding what the good shot felt like. You say, wow that was the shot! I need to do that again but can't seem to get it right... very frustrating. Without that understanding repeating it is next to impossible. I'm finally starting to understand what it feels like and working to bring my discipline up to the point where I don't let the bad one's fly... I'm not there yet.


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## Padgett

Well, for me at every level I have ever been at in every sport the first time something happens you are just excited that it did happen. I can still remember how excited I was to hit a home run in eighth grade, if you would have asked me how I did it and how it felt and what I was doing to hit it I couldn't tell you. By the time I hit my longest 435 foot home run my senior year in college I could tell you everything about it from my mental approach to my stance to my hand position to the warm up swings before I went to the plate. By that time I had hit thousands of home runs in practice and had dialed things in so I could reproduce that swing again and that is exactly the same thing I do with archery.


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## N7709K

I've found with archery the only time I know what happened is when something deviated and the shot went south- if it goes down the pipe I got no idea what happened, it just went.


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## ron w

exactly, when the shot goes right we haven't thought about what we've done, it all happened by sub-conscious process. when the shot goes south, we have interrupted and distracted this process with conscious thought. hence the phrase..."when you step to the line, hang your mind on the wall".


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