# TURBO NOCK T-4- Blazers and broadheads



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

I decided to start a new thread on this . I just went out today and did some Hooter shooter testing with the T-4 and a conventional straight nock mounted in identical arrows fletched with blazers. using Muzzy 100 4 blades and also one test with a 3 blad broadhead.
The reason for this test was not to show grouping , but to show penetration .
We have been getting reports for some time that the TURBO make a different wound and had been doing a lot of damage to animals in hunting situations.
Usually the turbo makes a round entrance wound rather than an X

I guessed that perhaps more energy is being transmitted down range because the instant spin produces more efficient arrow flight. 

The test seems to prove that.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Here are the images larger


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

here is photo 2 again


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## stodr (Sep 4, 2002)

Nick if I put the turbo nocks on will the spin created by the nock be neutralized by a wisker bisket?


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## HNSB (Jul 1, 2004)

That's an impressive test. :beer: :shade:


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## hanksarchery (Apr 6, 2005)

I have some customers that use Turbo nocks with there Wisker Biscuit and they are very satisfied with the outcome. The rest does not seem to deter the added rotation.

Hi Nick, This is Frank from Hank's House of Archery. I had a staff shooter who was having alot of trouble with kiss offs while 3-D shooting. Based on him wanting to stay in his current class, we put on some T-4 Turbo Nocks. What a difference they have made. He has not had a kiss off since they were installed and he even gained some fps. You have an excellent product. Keep up the good work and I hope to talk to you soon! :smile:


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Nick,

Is it right that a T-4 is only one size - as in one size fits all. Since one size clearly does not fit all (Just look at all the sizes offered by Beiter - plus I've got all kinds of arrows and all kinds of nocks and they all fit differently) do you have plans to make the T-4's in different sizes to fit arrows properly?

Also, how, in your opinion, does the current size fit Carbon Express CX 300's?


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

The T-4 fits about 99% of what is out there. most brand name carbons.
At $20.000 a pop for production molds . It will be a while until I make any Odd sizes. If an eason super nock or a Bohning signature fit , the T-4 will fit. 
That is a really large percentage of the arrow market.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

I am not clear on how with the same weight arrow you are getting better penetration? Do you have anything for the Axis arrows? I would like to do this test myself. I am using the Blazers now and anything that will improve the business end for hunting I want to check into. Thanx


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Based on the size described by Nick I can guarantee you the T-4 won't fit the Axis


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

T4's won't fit axis shafts.

I beleive the HTAX will though. 

I've found this to be true as well...I shoot the hunters and have always found them to hit harder than anything else I've shot. Never really tested them but it doesn't suprise me at all.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Jerry/NJ said:


> I am not clear on how with the same weight arrow you are getting better penetration?


Jerry,
my guess is that the more round hole created by the increased spin will cause a lower friction from the target material to the shaft just because less target material is left to stop the arrow.
I'm not sure to what percentage this would be convertable to animal tissue but it's unlikely that any drawbacks will show up at least.

Since I ordered two dozen of the Beman Black Max I really would like to get a smaller T-4 but I totally understand the investment issue, so I will be patient. :smile: 

Very good test, Nick. :thumbs_up


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

*Deeper penetration w' Turbo's*

I would guess better stabilization which means a straighter flying arrow.


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## KYShooter (Jun 23, 2004)

I never paid much attention to the penetration, but I can tell you using the same arrow, my blazers and regular nocks shot quite a bit lower than the same arrow with tn hunters. Hunters were heavier too. Sorta suprised me. Im gonna start using them again when I get my gt 22's with a bushing in the back. Had a problem with cracking my shafts on the CX-200's.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

*Had the same problem*

with cracked shafts using TNs. My TNs are on the shelf until I figure out how best to use them. Maybe 2413's with bushings, or even ACC 3-60s for hunting. I would have to go to the G-nock version of the TN for 3D.


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## Stuffem (Aug 9, 2003)

Nick,
Just wanted to say that the t-4's work awsome. :shade: I had our local shop (Libby Sports Center) order some after I tried them and they can hardly keep them on the shelf. Thanks for a great product.

Kevin Neidigh


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## spobow (Jul 17, 2004)

So Nick would you recommend the t-4 with vanes or just turbo nocks themselves for a set-up? Thanks. :smile:


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## JousiMan (Nov 25, 2003)

*T4 with arrow rests?*

I´m probably going to buy some T-4 nocks soon. Would like to try them on my target bow also. I´d like to know if somebody have experience with T-4 nocks on a normal (not dropaway) rest? Any input would be appreciated.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

*Jousiman*

Won't work. You must use a drop away, or a Whisker B.

The hard vanes will crash into stuff, break, and of course deflect the arrow.


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## JousiMan (Nov 25, 2003)

*Thanks!*

I thought it too that it might cause some problems. Maybe I´ll change to dropaway. :beer:


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Whew Lotas QUESTIONS.

Hey Don Schultz you can easily solve your shaft cracking problem.
All you have to do is gently sand or scrape two of the little risers on the insert. There are directions on our website. click on tuning tips and click on the pictures. It takes about 15 seconds per nock. I use one of my wife"s emery boards that she uses on her nails.

The T-4 WILL work on shoot through rests because you can rotate the nock in your shaft and get the vanes to clear. Usually if you put the cock feather horizontal it will rotate about 90% and clear.

SPOBOW
I prefer the solid TURBOS cause I am lazy and do not like to fletch , and I use fallaways and whiskers. The T-4 gives virtually equal performance if you fletch with equal size vanes. It will also improve the flight of standard size vanes. ( An arrow that spins instantly requires less wind resistance than an arrow that uses vanes to make it spin)

Penetration issue

If you have ever seen a skydiving video you may have noticed that skydivers can change their speed . When they do those linkups they all jump at different times and somehow manage to fly toghther and link up.
They do this by changing their wind resistance. Hands at you sides and legs together and you can go about 160 to 180 mph in a free fall. Spread your legs and open up your arms and you can slow down to around 120.

Same with arrow speed. For example the HUNTER has 1.6 sq in of vane and will stabilize the same broadheads that a conventional 4 in vane will that uses about 6 sq in of vane. The Hunter weighs 54 grains the fletching and nock weigh about 46 grains. The Hunter will chrono faster at the bow for one simple reason. Wind resistance has a greater effect on the arrow than weight.

Also when any TURBO product leaves the bow it is already spinning at max. rpms. and uses only enough wind resistance to keep the arrow spinning. so it slows down at a much lower rate than an arrow that leaves the bow with regular fletch and has to use up a lot of energy just to spin and then continues to fly down range with six times more vane dragging through the air than the turbo.

The penetration test I posted proves this. 
The Blazer arrows were equal in all aspects except for the nocks.
Three had the T-4 at 11 grains and three had the conventional nock at 13 grains. 
The conventional nocked arrow used only the wind to spin. Laws of physics. If you use energy in one way you have to give something up.
The conventional arrows used drag to get the arrow to spin and that additional drag over the period of time required to make the arrow spin also slowed it down. The T-4 mechanically spun the arrows so they left the bow spinning and did not require that drag energy so they got to the target sooner with more energy left in them and penetrated farther into the target.
I was at a Show in missouri and loaned some turbos to the guys who sell a back sight for your bow. They were shooting into a bag in their trailer with target arrows. They had the trailer lined with 1/2 inch plywood.
Their conventional arrows would stop in the bag. The TURBOS blew right through and lodged in the plywood.
Wind resistance at high speed has a much greater effect on arrow speed than weight. There is some formula for this that I can not remember but it goes something like this. When you double the speed of an object , the wind resintance does not double , it increases in a higher multiple.
My 100 horsepower Vw will push through the wind and get up to a little over 100 mph. If you want to go 200 mph in a car you better go get a 700 to 1000 hp Nascar vehicle. It takes that much more energy to push through the wind at 200 mph. At the speed of sound around 700 mph there is around 
1000 pounds of air pressure per square inch on an object.

As bows get faster and faster conventonal vanes become less and less efficient. So the smaller vane you can use the less this drag effect will be an issue.


IF YOU ARE GOING

TO DO ANY TESTING of T-4 s DO A SERVING CHECK!!

One thing I found is that with my Matthews bow the T-4 was too tight for the serving. I believe it had an .024 serving on it and I replaced it with an .018. So if you are going to shoot the t-4 and it seems exceptionally tight you may have to go to a smaller serving. So far I only had this problem on my matthews bow and it was a 10 minute job to reserve. My high country and Css were fine.


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## spobow (Jul 17, 2004)

Thanks Nick, I appreciate your help. Anytime you need another staff shooter or product tester, I'm your man! Betcha hear that all the time, huh?


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Nick,
What do you have for the Axis arrows? I need to try this penetration thing for myself , not that I dont believe you, I cant get it thru my thick head how it can increase penetration without adding weight and/or speed so I need to do it myself and see for myself which is usually how I learn the best


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

YOU can get the HTAX on our website. www.turbonock.com

If you have two identical weight arrows and one is flying faster when it hits the target , it will penetrate deeper.

We have always only considered grain weight as what causes speed loss because all arrows with the same size vanes will use up the wind resistance energy equally.
The TURBO THROWS a MONKEY WRENCH into the equation by mechanically spinning the arrow. This lets a TURBO with about 1/6 th the amount of vane area fly the same broadhead as a conventional arrow. 
That is a lot less wind resistance which lets the Turbo leave the bow a little faster, and it also slows down at a lower rate. So it hits the target with more energy.


I had a response from a gentleman at a recent show who said I would rather have a slow bow that was accurate than a fast bow that was not.
In his mind he had already decided that speed reduces accuracy.

What really reduces accuracy with broadheads is that when speed is increased the broadhead blades become more difficult to turn because of greater wind resistance and tuning becomes more difficult with speed.
The TURBO solves this problem by turning the broadhead instantly and reduces the planing problem and virtually eliminates tuning broadheads.

When it comes to hunting Speed is always an issue. The more energy delivered to the animal the more damage. 
I grew up in a gunshop - archery shop and never did a customer bring in a box of spent shells and say " Hey Nick how about putting in a little less gunpowder when you reload these. I think my bullets are going to fast !"

I have been in over a thousand martial arts tournament fights.
I never slowed a punch down . 
Whether a projectile is a bullet or an arrow or a fist. the object is to deliver as much energy to the target. 
When I would break bricks if I did not strike them fast enough the energy would not transfer properly and my hand would sting like crazy. If I hit them really fast and clean they would "usually" break and the pain would be bearable.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanx Nick ........are you going to have T-4's for Axis arrows? 

ps, did you ever break things with your head? just wondering as I had a friend who was into that stuff and now I wonder about him,,,,,hahaha.....no offense intended..... :wink: :teeth:


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

i have been testing two 2 inch blazer vanes myself with the T4's and am amazed at how accurate they are with the broadheads i am shooting. i am shooting 125 grain hornhets sonic's and redd fury broadheads and then shooting a standard arrow and though my tests aren't as official as nicks i do see more pentration and have had great results when shooting into a morrell yellow jacket and the T4's are tearing up the jacket with the groups i have been getting. nick thanks for the scientifics you have shown and when i am pulling a standard fletched arrow and a nock the arrow seems to pull out straight but i have noticed a a twisting motion when pulling out the T4 arrows. i am guessing this is because the arrow is still penetrating and spinning still until the arrow has stopped fully. is this what is happeneing to you nick? i really like the blazer vanes and the T4's will make a deadly dup for this next season
rob k


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Yeah Robk I am trying the Blazers for Turkey this year. This is really hard for me as I have a real thing about fletching !!!! YUK!!!!! 

Jerry from NJ.
We may make a T-4 for the Axis in the future, but it will not be on the market for a while . It takes about 6 to 9 months to get the mold done right and we have not started one at this time.

I broke a 4inch concrete block one time.. I just could not see risking what brain cells I have to do that. I was judging some breaking competition at a tournament some years ago and one of the competitors tried to break a 4inch cap block with his head. He succeeded , but when he stood up he had a half inch piece of concrete embedded in his forehead and had to be taken to the hospital. So I only ever broke one block when my master kind of expected me to do so to show I had the skill. I did it and did nnnn oottt llike the resulll tsss. luckillllyyy it hasss nottt haddd a llastinggggg efffffectttt on mmeee.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Nick,

Man that was some funny stuff !!!! Sure brings back memories!
Anyhow, ok thanx for the info.......guess I'll give the tn's a try as I am running out of toys to play with...


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

This is a neato message that was posted on Hunting.net 
I felt I would share it here.
This T-4 is starting to scare me. I thnk I may have created a monster. 
This is fun really really fun!


BearGuy. 
Spike




Posts: 81
Joined: 2/12/2003 
From: Iowa(winter) Ontario(summer)
Status: offline 
RE: Turbo... (in reply to NickSnook) 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I went to the mail box a couple of days ago and there was a pack from Turbo Nock. Nick sent me a dozen T-4's and a half a dozen T-4's in the glow. Well it took a whole 5 minuites or so before they were flying through my back yard. They shoot great. I set up my paper tuner and shot a few arrows through it, no problem shot a bullet on the second shot. I shoot a string loop and had to spread it apart a bit to accomidate the thicker nock without pinching at full draw. Took them to a 3D shoot on Sunday and shot a good round, and tied the guy that usually wins the thing. I also shoot blazer vanes. The talk of the archery shoot wasn't the 30mph winds and some rain, but it was these arrows. Nobody around here carries the new stuff, so everybody wanted to see how the arrows shot. So we started shooting a deer at 110 yards or so, just so everyone could see how they fly. I couldn't believe it when I actually hit the thing on the 5th shot. Got an 8 too!! The T-4's really put some spin on them arrows, everybody noticed that. I busted a couple of arrows doing this as we forgot about all the rocks in the ground and backstop. Oh well! haha I ended up leaving the shoot with a few less turbos by giving some to friends to try out, and never got back! . Everyone (me included) was impressed with how these arrows flew in the strong wind. They didn't drift as much as the other arrows people were flinging at the deer. 

Thanks Nick for sending these to me, looks like I will have to order some to replenish my stock! And I bet a few more shooters will be shooting them next season when I go back. 


< Message edited by BearGuy. -- 4/11/2005 10:26:05 PM > 

_____________________________


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## Bearguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Yep! I did say that! Neat to see a post I had made it to another forum.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

And thanks Again !!!!


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## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*String loop needed?*

Nick

When shooting the t-4 nocks, is it absolutely necessary to use a string loop? I have two bows currently set up to shoot off the string, and really can't shorten the draw very much. I'd like to give the t-4s a try. Thanks


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Here is another penetration test I did today.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Nick,
I dont want to assume from the pics but what do you get from that test today? Thanx


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

I forgot to ask how much does the T-4 weigh ?


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Pa jay t4s weigh 11 grains.

Jerry . Basically I was doing a test to see the difference in penetration on an 8 inch block of styrafoam comparing the same arrow with a 55grain broadhead and using the Hunter vs the T-4 with blazers and an arrow with blazers and a standard nock. 

What this shows that even at 10 yds where one would think that just comming out of the bow there would be little difference in kinetic energy and that that is something that happens down range. Well even at 10 yds the TURBO equipped arrows went farther into the block. The only thing than can make this happen is that somehow the turbo arrows got to the target with more energy left in their flight to drive the broadheads farther through the block. The yellow crest is in the exact spot on all the arrows so you can tell by how much yellow is showing the difference the penetration was.
The Green nock is the conventional nock. the white one is the t-4
The orange Hunter is the Orange Hunter. the blanked out arrow is an experimental arrow I am working on and this was its first test shot. It has to be shot at farther distances before I show it. I is a prototype of my new Rocket vane.

What is strange is that everytime I do a penetration test the arrows penetrate deeper at 20yds than they do at 10. I am assuming that at 10 they may not be flying perfectly straight and the slight angle affects the penetration.. You can see in the 20yd photo that the TURBOS buried themselves past the yellow crest while the conventional nock did not.
The photo at the bottom shows how thick the block is . The arrow I pushed into the side so you could see a size comparison.


BTW we are running a special promotion on the t-4 this weekend and I just posted the info in another string.


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## CHAMPION2 (May 6, 2004)

I have taken the plunge!!! Ordered my first doz. white turbo hunters today. Excited to give them a try, and test them out on the good ole ND Whitetails.


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## hopsing (Dec 24, 2004)

*turbos and fingers*

Hi Nick,

Is it possible for a finger shooter to use the turbos without using the whisker biskit? I thought about using the tropy ridge freestyle dropaway but it wont work on an oneida :thumbs_do 

thanks is advance
mike


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

Well to tell the truth, I've been playing around with T4s for a couple weeks, and I get no change in point of impact, or change in penetration with the T4s vs. standard GT nocks. This is on a GT XT hunter with blazers that have a slight right offset. They seem to fit my serving fine, and i'm shooting a dropzone, and have no sign of fletching contact. I'm sure they are doing a better job of stabilizing the arrow, maybe the reason I'm not seeing different results is that my broadheads group right with my field points to start with, even with blazers. But i'm not seeing the magical 2-6" higher point of impact, or increased penetration, even out to 60yards.


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## Mohican (Feb 7, 2003)

How soon before we will see a T4 available for an ACC 3-60?

Thanks

Dave


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

the turbonocks when you try to remove rotate as they come out i have never had one that wouldn't turn ccoming out like it was screwed in. it's an bubelievable thing to and if you take thew time to remove them form your target pull it slowly and see if it doesn't turn as it comes out. at twenty yards a standard fletched arrow will not do that. that is why you see the turbo nock out penetration the normal arrow fletched and with whatever broadhead you want to shoot
rob k


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Sscottland.
I did not get an increase with my Matthews bow until I put a lighter serving on the string. On most strings It works fine , but it would bind on the .024 serving and I went to .018. This could be an issue as to why you are not seeing a trajectory improvement??

Mohican. If you are willing to take the g-nock bushing out of your 360 s
The T-4 will fit right in the shaft. The 360 id is basically the same as any standard carbon shaft.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

I just posted some test shooting photos in the manufacturers section of the new T-4 rocket prototypes. I did 40 yds with a shooting maching then 50 yds with my own "awesome' shooting. Anyhow the new rocket vane passed with flying colors. To coin a phrase my old man used to use about good aircraft. The new Rockets "flew like homesick angels"


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## deerslayr2 (Apr 30, 2005)

*T-4s, Blazer Vanes.Easton XX78s*

Has anyone done any testing with this setup yet?


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## reflex shooter (Feb 23, 2004)

When using t-4's, do you have to have a certain helical on your vanes? Right or left. I could see a problem with the t-4's trying to spin the arrow one way and the vanes trying to spin the arrow the opposite way.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

nfo comes with the product. The T-4 requires a right offset or right helical of from 2 to 4 degrees. This is a common sense issue. If your nock is spinning to the right you certainly do not use straight fletch which will be trying to stop the spin or left offset or helical for it will be trying to spin the other way.

We are often asked why we do not make a left twist TURBO.

Simply the high torque was found to unwind broadheads which have right hand threads. the Right twist in the turbo (all TURBOS) helps to tighten broadheads.


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## vandal44 (Mar 26, 2005)

*Turbo Nocks Hunters*

Nick, I see that you have made the Turbo Nock Hunters for the Axis arrows, will this fit the Beman Black Max 4 arrows.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

The black Max I believe takes the same internal components as the axis . the HTAX should work.


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## archer109 (Sep 10, 2005)

I know this is an old thread, but I was shooting our clubs 3D tournament this past weekend. I was shooting the T4 nock and blazers and man where they penetrating. I had a heck of time pulling them out. I wanted to do a little test so once the lanes cleared out I shot 2 arrows one with the T4 and one with regular nocks and their was a considerable difference in penetration. I love these nocks


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

We will not be making a t-4 to fit the little g-nock bushing at any time in the near future. The T-4 will fit your 360 acc if you remove the bushing. A 360 has the same id as a conventional shaft.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

scottland said:


> Well to tell the truth, I've been playing around with T4s for a couple weeks, and I get no change in point of impact, or change in penetration with the T4s vs. standard GT nocks. This is on a GT XT hunter with blazers that have a slight right offset. They seem to fit my serving fine, and i'm shooting a dropzone, and have no sign of fletching contact. I'm sure they are doing a better job of stabilizing the arrow, maybe the reason I'm not seeing different results is that my broadheads group right with my field points to start with, even with blazers. But i'm not seeing the magical 2-6" higher point of impact, or increased penetration, even out to 60yards.


The t-4 enables you to fly arrows with much smaller vanes and still achieve excellent stability.
The t-4 usually requires a slight nock height adjustment to shoot bullet holes compared to a regular nock. If you do not retune for the t-4 you will lose some of the benefits of improved trajectory. and arrow that is out of tune will loose some speed .
Check out our tuning tips section on our website www.turbonock.com
click on pictures and there is quite a bit of information.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

I use QAD nock and Gold Tip pin nocks. They both fly the best from a perfect 90 deg off the string with a D-loop. This gives me a broad head field point that stay together out to 50 yards. If i under strand correctly if I want the benefit of using the T-4 I will need to move my nock location above the 90 deg mark. Should this then give me my prefect Broad head field point groups again? The reason I ask I just bought some and was only going to replace them and test at my current tune to see if I can get a benefit in groups size.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Any turbo nock adds instant rotation to the arrow. No other nock does this.
In most cases this requires a slight nock height change to get perfect flight.
single and twin cam bows usually tune aroun 1/8 nock high and the new hybrids tune 1/8 nock low. This may vary slightly from bow to bow and is best worked out by paper tuning.

we show how paper tuning works with our product on our website at www.turbonock.com go to tuning tips and then click on pictures.


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## Tejas Raz (Jan 24, 2003)

Nick, what is the twist rate for the T-4 nocks? Thinking about fletch cocking and rest clearance from the fletch.

I'm using Blazer vanes glued helical, and a NAP QT-4000 rest mounted on a Storm Elite 36.

Thanks,

Scott


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## NJBowman (Oct 15, 2002)

Nick I sent you a pm.


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

Here is a good shot of a T-4 with Blazers in action:


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

another shot:


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

robertyb
Are you using a D-loop ? What is your nock position? Have you tried fixed blade Broad heads to see if they group with your field points?


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## rogbo (Jan 2, 2004)

Nick, sent you a PM about this a while back but I understand how busy you are. What is the smallest inside diameter that a turbo nock (not a t-4) will fit. I shoot Alaska bowhunting supply Grizzly Stiks. These are a tapered carbon shaft with a nock end, inside diameter of 3/36". This is roughly 1/32" smaller than the common carbon shafts, like the Carbon express terminators. I would love to shoot turbo's out of this set up. Any ideas?


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## za_boy (Nov 8, 2005)

Nick Snook - Any dealers in South Africa? I'd love to try these!


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Actually if you take the G-nock bushing out of the 3-60 our T-4 will fit.
The 3-60 has the same inside diameter as a conventional carbon shaft.


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## segolden (Feb 27, 2006)

*Hey Nick, new guy has questions...*

Tried your T-4's recently, very inpressed with speed and accuracy combined with Blazers. Your data confirms mine, that penetration was greater past ten yards. I seem to recall that you were going to do some tests with T-4's and FOB's, so what were the results? I like the advantages of both systems, though I've tried Turbo Nocks and like them. I shoot a new Mathews XT at 50lbs., 27" with a TT Shakey Hunter rest, X-Weave Steath Hunter 100's and Wac'em 100gr.


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## robertyb (Jul 19, 2004)

whitetail99 said:


> robertyb
> Are you using a D-loop ? What is your nock position? Have you tried fixed blade Broad heads to see if they group with your field points?


Yes, I use a D loop about 1/8" high. My Montecs fly great.


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