# Order of Tuning



## itstoolate (Sep 30, 2014)

Ok Guys!

I read a lot of tuning stuff and i did understand how every tuning method works ... but really do not know in which order i should tune ...

for example ... how can i check cam lean,if my arrow is not centered ... if i start tuning the one thing,the other thing will be untuned ...

I start like this :

Tiller 0
Arrow on vertical high of berger holes
90° degree on string + 1/8 - 1/4 high
Checking cam lean with eyes
Draw stop timing
is the string hitting the stoppers of the cam at full draw
centering arrow with a tape and a string on the limbs
centering pins of sight

Paper Tuning 
left/right tear --> Yoke Tuning for cam lean,Centershot adjustment or Spine
high/down tear --> nocking point adjust with control cable

Walking Back
French tuning

mh ... how is your order? is something wrong?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I have a link in my signature that has a full bow build up with the steps I take in order that I do. It's a multi part series.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Ok Guys!
> 
> I read a lot of tuning stuff and i did understand how every tuning method works ... but really do not know in which order i should tune ...
> 
> ...


1) install arrow rest and install sight

2) raise arrow rest (drop away arm in the FULL up position) to get the arrow tube at the same height as the arrow rest bolt.



3) install the d-loop...you can try LEVEL arrow tube style, for d-loop position
....you can try the TAIL HIGH arrow nock, d-loop style, for d-loop position...1/8th is MORE than enough

4) set the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position.
....STARTING POSITION for STARTERS...before you fire the FIRST ARROW...is to POINT the arrow DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD.
....NOT crooked left...for STARTERS.
....NOT crooked RIGHT...for STARTERS.

Here is ONE way to figure out DEAD STRAIGHT ahead, if you are not sure about how to figure out DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD,
arrow blocking the bowstring, with the front stabilizer pointed at a target bullseye.



Of course,
this ONLY works if your bow does NOT HAVE A TWISTED riser.

Most folks do not have a TWISTED riser,
so this SHOULD work for you.







THIS is just for STARTERS.

Don't spend more than 2 minutes TOPS,
to set the STARTING sideways position of the arrow rest.

We are going to MOVE the arrow rest anyways,
when tuning.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Next,
shoulder height target.

UP close and personal.

REALLY REALLY close.

Like 1 meter or 1,5 meters.



TUNE the sight windage, 
the SIDEWAYS position of the SIGHT.

MOVE the scope dot
MOVE the sight pins SIDEWAYS

until your fletched arrow SPLITS the edge of the target paper,
50/50.

BE PICKY.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NOW,
do it again with a bareshaft.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NOW,
goto 18 meters
and fire a group of fletched arrows.

Take a photo.



FINE tune the SIDEWAYS position of the arrow rest...

to get the FLETCHED arrows in the MIDDLE of the bullseye.

TOLD ya,
we would MOVE the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Now,
we check CAM sync.

You want THIS result.

I fired the bareshaft first and nailed the x-ring at 18 meters.

So,
to CONFIRM that the fletched arrow is also hitting at the SAME EXACT HEIGHT...

I fired the fletched arrow over to the LEFT.

IF the cam sync is PERFECT for YOU, when YOU shoot YOUR BOW, in YOUR hands...

then,
a bareshaft and a fLETCHED arrow would both hit at EXACTLY the same height.



You adjust cam sync
on a hybrid cam bow

THIS way.


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## nismomike (Feb 16, 2014)

Tag


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*AFTER you finish adjusting CAM sync..

AFTER you can have your fletched arrow and your bareshaft arrow
BOTH hit at the SAME exact height, at 18 meters...*




AFTER you have fired a group of fletched arrows into the bullseye,
at 18 meters,
by MOVING your arrow rest SIDEWAYS position, by FINE TUNING the arrow rest SIDEWAYS POSITION...




NOW,
fire a bareshaft at the SAME target,
at 18 meters.

I got THIS result.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
NOW we tune the bow draw length.

THAT's right.

WE adjust the bow draw length setting,
to the 1/4-inch...about 5-6 mm.




BEFORE, with the draw length at FACTORY SPEC.

18 meters.



AFTER adjusting the draw length on the bow,
5-6mm.



I do NOT yoke tune at ONLY 18 meters.

YOKE tuning at 18 meters just HIDES draw length problems.

TUNE the bow draw length down to 5-6 mm (1/4-inch)
learn how to do this,
and your accuracy will go THROUGH the ROOF (gets much better).

SAVE yoke tuning for 50 meters tuning.

When your groups are REALLY REALLY tight,
like THIS...

at 18 meters



*MOVE your sight elevation and windage.*

DO NOT TOUCH the arrow rest.

*GROUP size is completely controlled by arrow rest SIDEWAYS position,
and bow draw length
and your form.*

*The sight has ZERO effect on the SIZE of your arrow groups.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

After adjusting the sight elevation
and windage..

I went from THIS...








to THIS.




So,
this is BEFORE stabilizer tuning (I have a THREE STEP method).

So,
this is BEFORE yoke tuning at 50 meters (60 yards).

So,
this is BEFORE group tuning the arrow rest at 50 meters (60 yards).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

What happens AFTER group tuning at long range,
what happens AFTER doing stabilizer tuning?

THIS happens.


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## naptalene (Oct 8, 2012)

Tagged, was wondering about this exact topic.


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## nismomike (Feb 16, 2014)

Can I use the length of my release for DL tuning? Or does it have to be tuned into the bow itself?


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## defmonkey (May 13, 2014)

Tag


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## OregonKDS (Mar 6, 2014)

Tag


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## prbg (Apr 3, 2013)

Mark


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## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

Tag


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## S.Dobbs (Jun 27, 2008)

Tagged


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## bps3040 (Oct 20, 2003)

Tag


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## donkengine (Nov 18, 2010)

Tagged


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## holtv663 (Jul 6, 2014)

Good info


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## Monster Man80 (Nov 28, 2011)

Tagged


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## Greencb (Jul 8, 2008)

Great Information!


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

itstoolate said:


> Ok Guys!
> 
> I read a lot of tuning stuff and i did understand how every tuning method works ... but really do not know in which order i should tune ...
> 
> ...


FWIW, here's my regime:

Set knocking point with a bow square, approx. 1/4" above where the arrow would sit on the rest.
Set center shot by eye roughly aligned with what looks like the plane of the string power stroke.

Shoot an arrow at close range (3 feet or so) and assess:
- knock high, lower knocking point slightly.
- knock low/metallic smell indicating rest contact, raise knocking point.
- knock left, adjust rest left and conversly.

If it's in the ballpark at that point I start to paper tune and finally bareshaft tune.

Works every time for me, though I usually end up around 1/8" above "level" on the knocking point, and rarely have to adjust center shot after setting it by eye. 

Things that never effect the tune that I usually ignore unless something is visibly just way off or I run out of adjustment on something above:
- tiller
- cam/wheel timing
- cam lean (long as the cable stays on the wheels, I'm good)

For me, it's arrow spine, knocking point and center shot. The rest has always just been fiddling that doesn't affect the tune, so I leave it alone.

Here's a result with my Genesis Pro at about 10 yards, works for me:
LS


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## WithoutWarning (Jan 26, 2010)

Taggerd


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## randolph_ar (Sep 24, 2013)

Tagged


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## Slosir (Sep 18, 2013)

Thanks for the info


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## coltd65 (Aug 1, 2012)

Tagged


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## uDUBdrew (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks Nuts & Bolts


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## tidy313 (Aug 15, 2010)

Super tag


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

nismomike said:


> Can I use the length of my release for DL tuning? Or does it have to be tuned into the bow itself?


If you mean a wrist strap release,
I would keep the strap connection
between the wrist strap
and your trigger nice and SHORT...

to keep a TIGHT HOOK on the pointer finger.




So,
when I say BOW DRAW LENGTH tuned to the 1/4-inch,
I do mean TWEAK the cables,
to make the peep sight PHYSICALLY CLOSER to your eyeball,
to make the peep sight PHYSICALLY FARTHER away from your eyeball.

So,
working the release length, the WRIST strap hunting release, LONGER or SHORTER,
is NOT what I am talking about.

So,
to be clear

we keep your bow arm ELBOW BEND EXACTLY the same.

We keep your anchor points on your face, EXACTLY the SAME.

So,
what happens, when we TWEAK the cables of your bow,
to GROW the ATA LONGER, which will SHRINK the DRAW length of the BOW?

When you keep the EXACT SAME bow arm elbow bend,
when you keep the EXACT SAME ANCHOR POINT on your head...

when we GROW the ATA of the bow with LONGER CABLES,
I am TWEAKING your POSTURE.

What happens to your POSTURE,
when we GROW the ATA of your bow,
with the CABLES LONGER than before....

so that the BRACE HEIGHT DROPS 1/4-inch,
well,
the bow DRAW LENGTH also drops 1/4-inch SHORTER.

BUT
BUT
BUT

*I will be ALL SCRUNCHED UP if YOU shorten my BOW DRAW LENGTH 1/4-inch shorter.
I gotta bend my BOW arm.
NO, you do NOT need to BEND your bow arm, when you DROP the draw length 1/4-inch shorter.*

STICK your BUTT and hips AWAY from the shooting line,
AWAY from the target.

*Your TWO armpits will automatically MOVE FORWARDS, CLOSER to the target,
and you can keep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same
and you can keep the EXACT Same Anchor Point. 

This is also called LEANING LESS BACKWARDS than before. This is also called LEANING FORWARDS a tiny bit.*

LEAN FORWARDS
LEAN backwards

SO what!!

Who can tell the difference between a TINY ITSY BITSY change in draw length,
with ONLY 1/4-inch????

Depending on your skill level,
it can make a LARGE difference.

Changing the draw length 1/4-inch SHORTER
changes the ANGLE of your release side forearm.



Changing the DRAW LENGTH for the BOW,
SWINGS your FOREARM like the NEEDLE on a COMPASS.

Shortening the BOW draw length,
when you KEEP the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the SAME as always
when you KEEP the EXACT SAME anchor points on your HEAD...

SHORTENING the BOW draw length only 1/4-inch
makes the RELEASE FOREARM SWING like a COMPASS NEEDLE in the COUNTER-CLOCK-WISE direction.

THAT's why
THIS can happen at 20 yards.

Only a 1/4-inch change in DRAW LENGTH by GROWING the ATA of the bow, by MAKING the cables LONGER than before...OUT of SPEC on PURPOSE.

*My 20 yard groups, at BONE STOCK in spec 29-inch DL module.*



My 20 yard groups, with bow OUT OF SPEC, ON PURPOSE, by changing the BOW DRAW LENGTH, 1/4-inch
to FORCE a shooting posture CHANGE
to FORCE a change in the COMPASS DIRECTION for the RELEASE SIDE forearm
with ZERO changes to the bow arm elbow
with ZERO changes to the facial anchor points.



*ONLY with a BASIC 1/4-inch draw length change.*





So,
when YOU find YOUR sweet spot for DRAW LENGTH on the bow....

tuning the BOW DRAW LENGTH to the 1/4-inch
which
is something that ONLY THE BOW OWNER can do...

*NO body else
can do this step FOR YOU.*

Might need to go LONGER 1/4-inch.
Might need to go SHORTER 1/4-inch.

RESULTS will be your GUIDE.

When your groups are TIGHTER than EVER BEFORE in your LIFE...

most likely,
the SUPER DUPER TIGHT GROUP will NOT be in the bullseye anymore.

*DO NOT MOVE THE ARROW REST.*

*ONLY TWEAK the sight elevation.
ONLY TWEAK the sight windage.*




So,
I do this BASIC draw length FRANKEN-STEIN work,
VERY VERY EARLY in the process.

NOW,
go and group tune your arrow rest at 60 yards.

NOW,
go and yoke tune your top axle, if you have yoke legs, at 60 yards.


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## TroyP (Feb 24, 2013)

tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ALL of this stuff,
I go into more detail in the DVD.

If you need help franken-steining your bow....

custom coaching
www.nutsandboltsarchery.com

If you want to get on my DVD pre-order list...

so you qualify for the $25 USD Pre-Order PRICING, plus mailing costs...

I NEED an email.

*My email is in my signature,
at the bottom of EVERY one of my posts.*


*IN THE EMAIL,*
I need first and last name.
I need AT username.
I need a full shipping address.

No money now,
cuz this is a PRE-ORDER.

This helps me keep up with typing up the thousands of shipping labels.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

My methods are UN-conventional.

Tuning draw length IN BETWEEN fixed cam draw length sizes, EARLY in the tuning process
Tuning draw length IN BETWEEN Draw Length Module sizes, EARLY in the tuning process

BEFORE yoke tuning,
BEFORE group tuning your arrow rest,
BEFORE stabilizer tuning your bow...

is ONE of my methods that I talk about in the DVD,
is going to get you shooting BETTER than ever before.


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## stampy (Jul 11, 2010)

nuts is the ****!


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## Bryand2211 (Oct 30, 2013)

Tag


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## bluestreaker (Apr 14, 2013)

Tag


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## ikhmalok (May 18, 2012)

tag


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## shooter34 (Feb 24, 2009)

Taged!


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## 340pd (Aug 18, 2013)

Wow! Tagged and Thank you all.


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## RO4VOLS (May 25, 2004)

tagged


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## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

Question for you NB...how many twists in your cables does it typically take to change your DL by 1/4"?


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## rookiex1290 (Oct 29, 2014)

Tagged


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## itstoolate (Sep 30, 2014)

Sorry,i have a lot of more questions now ...

#6 Now i am fine tuning with the arrow rest ... Yes,so i do not touch the sight,i still aim into the bullseye and just tune the rest until the arrows are hitting the middle ... but then the rest is not in the center?!

#7 @second picture : why i watch the bareshaft? if it hits lower,i need to untwist the control cable and twist the BOWSTRING? so i am working always with the control cable and the BOWSTRING?

#9 Where did you aim for the bareshaft shooting? bullseye? edge? Why did the bareshaft land on the edge if you aimed into the bullseye?

I hope i did understand the rest ... but still thanks for the long answer


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## DiSc0Rd (Jan 28, 2014)

when is the dvd going to be done?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DiSc0Rd said:


> when is the dvd going to be done?


Soon.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Sorry,i have a lot of more questions now ...
> 
> #6 Now i am fine tuning with the arrow rest ... Yes,so i do not touch the sight,i still aim into the bullseye and just tune the rest until the arrows are hitting the middle ... but then the rest is not in the center?!
> 
> ...


At 2 meters,
I want you to PROVE to yourself,
you can hit what you are looking at.

At 2 meters,
the RIGHT HAND edge of the piece of paper is EASY to see.

At 2 meters,
the RIGHT HAND EDGE of the shoulder height target face is EASY to aim at.

At 2 meters,
AIM at the RIGHT hand edge of the sheet of paper, and make a perfect 50/50 hole.



CAN you see how HALF the arrow hole in on the paper
CAN you see how HALF the arrow hole is off the edge of the paper?

This proves to YOU that you can hit the EDGE of the paper PERFECTLY.

For my more ADVANCED students...
I do THIS VERSION at 2 meters.

AT 2 meters,
SINGLE strand of bowstring material.

SPLIT THE SINGLE STRAND of bowstring material.
I aim at the SINGLE strand of bowstring material.

SPLIT the single strand, standing only 2 meters away.
ONLY MOVE THE SIGHT sideways, to accomplish this result.



CLOSEUP PHOTO.



THIS is how I teach my ONLINE students,
ALL over the world how to adjust SIGHT windage, sideways movement of the sight aiming system.

In fact, one of my most advanced ONLINE students,
is in Germany.

For a more ADVANCED student,
the fletched arrow is TOO EASY.

So,
I have them do THIS.





My MOST advanced students,
I have them do this at 2 meters.



SIGHT windage
at 2 meters.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Sorry,i have a lot of more questions now ...
> 
> #6 Now i am fine tuning with the arrow rest ... Yes,so i do not touch the sight,i still aim into the bullseye and just tune the rest until the arrows are hitting the middle ... but then the rest is not in the center?!
> 
> ...


BARESHAFT TEST.

TWO TESTS actually.

If your question is about BARESHAFT POINT of impact HITTING HIGH or HITTING LOW...
we are FIXING VERTICAL BARESHAFT FLIGHT..

YOU DO NOT TOUCH THE BOWSTRING.

YOU only work the CONTROL CABLE, in my system of tuning.



On a Hybrid cam bow...

1) you have the bowstring...LEAVE IT ALONE
2) you have the buss cable...the cable with THREE end loops....LEAVE IT ALONE

3) you have the control cable...the cable with only TWO end loops...WORK THE TOP END LOOP
....TOP end loop of control cable, ADD or REMOVE 1/2 twist.
....REPEAT the 1/2 TWIST adjustment, TOP end loop of control cable ONLY...

until you get THIS result....

for UP-DOWN point of impact adjustment on the BARESHAFT.



HORIZONTAL STRIP of masking tape

18 meters

I fired the BARESHAFT (no tape on the back end)
into the X-RING.

So,
I have the BARESHAFT hitting the TOP EDGE of the masking tape.
I am sighted in PERFECTLY for 18 meters.

So...

to DEMONSTRATE that the vanes are DOING ZERO STEERING CORRECTION WORK,
I fire the ARROW with VANES
over to the LEFT SIDE of the HORIZONTAL MASKING TAPE

and also HIT THE EXACT SAME HEIGHT,
to demonstrate
that the TWISTS in the CONTROL CABLE are PERFECTLY adjusted.

*If you have TOO many twists in the control cable,
control cable TOO SHORT

the BARESHAFT will MISS LOW.

REMOVE twists from the control cable.
MAKE control cable LONGER.*


If you have NOT ENOUGH twists in the control cable,
control cable is TOO LONG

the BARESHAFT will MISS HIGH.

ADD twists to the control cable.
MAKE control cable SHORTER.


The control cable is a SIMPLE ROPE.

You can ONLY adjust in TWO directions.

TRY one direction and ADD a half twist.
Then, add a half twist again.
Then, add a half twist again.

You will QUICKLY SEE if the bareshaft is hitting the SAME height, as the FLETCHED arrow.

If you think
that you should REMOVE a half twist on the TOP end loop of the control cable
TRY IT.

Then,
REMOVE another half twist.
Then,
REMOVE another half twist.
Then,
REMOVE another half twist.

You will QUICKLY find out what direction you need to adjust
the control cable..

EITHER LONGER
EITHER SHORTER

to get THIS result.

RESULTS based tuning.

WORK the control cable to move the bareshaft POINT OF IMPACT HIGHER or LOWER
to match the fletched arrow POINT OF IMPACT HEIGHT.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Sorry,i have a lot of more questions now ...
> 
> #6 Now i am fine tuning with the arrow rest ... Yes,so i do not touch the sight,i still aim into the bullseye and just tune the rest until the arrows are hitting the middle ... but then the rest is not in the center?!
> 
> ...


DRAW LENGTH TEST.

ALWAYS AIM AT BULLSEYE.

FIRE FLETCHED ARROWS, and AIM at BULLSEYE.

RESULT at 20 yards,
with the bow in SPEC, using 29-inch draw length modules.

HERE is the result,
AIMING AT THE BULLSEYE.



FOR ME,
this is a LOUSY GROUP...WAY too large for 18 meters.

BUT
BUT
BUT
the bow is in SPEC,
the ATA is correct
the brace height is correct
the draw length measures 29-inches...

WHY would a bow IN SPEC
deliver such a LARGE arrow group size
at 18 meters.


Soooo,
YOU TEST with a bareshaft

I AIMED at the BULLSEYE,
and I fired a BARESHAFT.

SEE what happens,
when YOU aim at the BULLSEYE
and fire a bareshaft.



DO you see the ANGLE of the bareshaft
firing at 18 meters
when I AIM AT THE BULLSEYE with a bARESHAFT?

The COMPASS direction of the BARESHAFT is POINTING NORTH WEST...when
I fire a BARESHAFT
and AIM at the BULLSEYE.

THIS means,
the COMPASS DIRECTION of my RIGHT FOREARM (I am a right handed shooter) is IN-CORRECT.

THIS means,
the bow DRAW LENGTH at 29-inches does NOT FIT ME perfectly.

THIS means,
that my BOW draw length must be CUSTOM ADJUSTED LONGER
so
that the COMPASS DIRECTION of my RIGHT FOREARM will CHANGE from POINTING NORTH WEST
to a NEW COMPASS DIRECTION of my RIGHT FOREARM to POINTING DUE NORTH.

*So,
I CHANGE the bow DRAW LENGTH
I make the bow DRAW LENGTH LONGER by 6 mm...(1/4-inch)

BUT,
How is THIS possible?

Draw Length modules are only available in 12,7 mm sizes (1/2-inch sizes).

That is correct.

You can only order DL modules in 1/2-inch sizes.

HOW do you adjust a bow draw length LONGER or SHORTER
in between Draw Length Module Sizes?*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Sorry,i have a lot of more questions now ...
> 
> #6 Now i am fine tuning with the arrow rest ... Yes,so i do not touch the sight,i still aim into the bullseye and just tune the rest until the arrows are hitting the middle ... but then the rest is not in the center?!
> 
> ...


Sooo,
the BARESHAFT missing to the LEFT of the bullseye,
when I aimed at the bullseye...

tells me to INCREASE the draw length of the bow 1/4-inch.

This is the result.



Group size is much better.

Now,
a simple adjustment to the sight elevation
and
a simple adjustment to the sight windage
gets this result.

When aiming at the bullseye.


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## wiesmanr (Nov 3, 2005)

tagged


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## JB9 (May 7, 2009)

Tag


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Lots of great info here N&B as always. Can't wait for the dvd.


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## itstoolate (Sep 30, 2014)

So is after this tuning the arrow rest tuned to the center of the bow?? 

Why is the bareshaft saying to me that my DL is too long/short?

At post #9 ... why is the bareshaft hitting so far away of the bullseye? At 1 meters i sighted in the bareshaft ... is the distance making that much differences?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> So is after this tuning the arrow rest tuned to the center of the bow??
> 
> Why is the bareshaft saying to me that my DL is too long/short?
> 
> At post #9 ... why is the bareshaft hitting so far away of the bullseye? At 1 meters i sighted in the bareshaft ... is the distance making that much differences?


STEP 1. PUT arrow rest sideways position, so the arrow points STRAIGHT ahead...NOT crooked left, not Crooked right...for STARTERS.
STEP 2. at REALLY CLOSE range, say 2 meters, hang a single strand of bowstring material. MOVE the sight sideways until you can do this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> So is after this tuning the arrow rest tuned to the center of the bow??
> 
> Why is the bareshaft saying to me that my DL is too long/short?
> 
> At post #9 ... why is the bareshaft hitting so far away of the bullseye? At 1 meters i sighted in the bareshaft ... is the distance making that much differences?


STEP 3. Fire 3 arrows at 20 yards.
IF the fletched arrows MISS to the LEFT of the bullseye, MOVE the arrow rest to the right 1 mm.
IF the fletched arrows MISS to the RIGHT of the bullseye, MOVE the arrow rest to the left 1 mm.

Continue to move the arrow rest SIDEWAYS until you have ALL Three fletched arrows hitting the bullseye.

The three arrows hitting the bullseye, looks like this.
Target is at YOUR shoulder height.
Target is 18 meters away.



This means I was aiming at the bullseye.
THIS means I moved the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position in TINY amount, 1mm or 0,5 mm or 0,25 mm to get
the fletched arrows to hit the bullseye, when I was aiming at the bullseye.


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## Texbama (Sep 18, 2003)

Tagged


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## mnfuel (Jun 28, 2014)

You explain how to adjust the vertical bareshaft / horizontal tape on a hybrid system with control cable. How do you do this on a binary/twin cam system? Thanks


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You explain how to adjust the vertical bareshaft / horizontal tape on a hybrid system with control cable. How do you do this on a binary/twin cam system? Thanks


To get your fletched arrow groups as FLAT as possible,
we need to change the cam sync,
to get the bow OUT OF SPEC,
to get results.

So,
a binary cam has two control cables.

GOTO the top cam.
Put masking tape on control cable #1 and write on the masking tape "#1".

GOTO the top cam,
and put masking tape on control cable #2 and write on the masking tape "DO NOT TOUCH".

So,
now you have three end loops on the top cam.

The bowstring end loop is pretty obvious...LEAVE IT ALONE.

So, you have masking tape on the end loop for Control Cable #1 and the Masking Tape says "#1".

So, you have masking tape on the end loop for Control Cable #2 and the Masking Tape says "DO NOT TOUCH".


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You explain how to adjust the vertical bareshaft / horizontal tape on a hybrid system with control cable. How do you do this on a binary/twin cam system? Thanks


So,
you goto the control cable end loop with the masking tape that says "#1".

Now 
you go and try my test for VERTICAL nock travel.



FIRE your bareshaft and hit the top edge of the masking tape.
In my case,
I had a shoulder height target
and I AIMED AT THE X-RING
and I hit the X-Ring with the bareshaft.

So,
YOU try.

Then,
you aim at the TOP edge of the masking tape
(this is a VERTICAL IMPAC TEST ONLY)
and
you FIRE a fletched arrow while AIMING AT THE TOP EDGE of the masking tape.

Did you get this result?



IF you do NOT have the SAME exact height,
for the FLETCHED arrow
for the BARESHAFT arrow (NO tape at the back end...we want ZERO air flow disturbance at the back end).

IF I can do this, with a bareshaft with NO TAPE at the back end,
since I am just an AVERAGE JOE...

then,
YOU can do this with NO TAPE at the back end,
of the bareshaft.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You explain how to adjust the vertical bareshaft / horizontal tape on a hybrid system with control cable. How do you do this on a binary/twin cam system? Thanks


If you do NOT get this result
at 18 meters
at 20 yards...



Then,
we goto the control cable with the masking tape label = "#1"

and we must CHANGE the length of that control cable.

TRY a half twist adjustment.

THIS usually works for MOST folks.
MIGHT need a FULL twist adjustment. Doesn't take much tweaking.

YOU have a 50/50 chance
to guess which direction.

MIGHT be add twist...maybe 1/2...maybe ONE twist.

MIGHT be remove twist...maybe 1/2...maybe ONE twist.



BINARY no yoke cable bow.

RED arrow for an end loop of a control cable.
BLUE arrow for an end loop of a different control cable.

TOP cam.

LEAVE the bowstring end loop alone.
LEAVE ONE control cable end loop alone.

Let's pick the RED arrow end loop for the control cable.

MAKE all adjustments to the RED arrow end loop, the end loop for a control cable, where you have a masking tape label that says "#1".

The other control cable,
has a masking tape label that says "DO NOT TOUCH".

This is ONLY on the top cam.

LEAVE ALL end loops attached to the bottom cam alone.

LEAVE the bowstring end loops alone.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You explain how to adjust the vertical bareshaft / horizontal tape on a hybrid system with control cable. How do you do this on a binary/twin cam system? Thanks




BowTech OVERDRIVE Binary (TM) Dual Cam system.

That is the OFFICIAL name of the Binary with YOKE cable system, on the BowTech Website.

The OVERDRIVE system is a Dual Cam system,
cuz,
it has TWO yoke cables.

So,
all the end loops on the bottom cam,
attach masking tape to the bottom bowstring end loop and write "DO NOT TOUCH"...

attach masking tape to the two YOKE legs attached to the bottom axle, and write "DO NOT TOUCH"...

attach masking tape to the buss cable end loop attached to the bottom cam and write "DO NOT TOUCH".


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## itstoolate (Sep 30, 2014)

Well my sight is not centered ... so i just move the rest matching the wrong centered sight?! this result in a not centered arrow rest ... am i wrong?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You explain how to adjust the vertical bareshaft / horizontal tape on a hybrid system with control cable. How do you do this on a binary/twin cam system? Thanks


BowTech OverDrive cam,
TOP CAM..

attach a masking tape label to the top end loop of the bowstring and write "DO NOT TOUCH"...
attach a masking tape label to both yoke legs attached to the TOP axle and write "DO NOT TOUCH"...

so,
this leaves you ONE end loop on the top cam.

SAME deal.

TRY a half twist.
YOu have a 50/50 chance to guess the correct direction.

Might need to add a half twist....
Might need to add FULL twist...

Might need to remove a half twist...
Might need to remove a FULL twist...



SEE RED ARROW.

ONLY this end loop.

Keep tweaking that RED ARROW pointing to the ONE end loop on the top cam...

until you get THIS AVERAGE JOE result.




BUT
BUT
BUT

what about my timing dots?
Dont' care.

what about the timing LINE on the PSE cams?
Don't care.

what about if my cam does not have timing dots or timing line or timing holes?
Don't care.

RESULTS based tuning...for AVERAGE JOES.



When you get THIS result...

you are HALF WAY to this result at 20 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Well my sight is not centered ... so i just move the rest matching the wrong centered sight?! this result in a not centered arrow rest ... am i wrong?


www.nutsandboltsarchery.com

Custom coaching
to ask as many questions as you like,
as many times as you like.


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## JBaker1 (Aug 4, 2014)

Tag


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Well my sight is not centered ... so i just move the rest matching the wrong centered sight?! this result in a not centered arrow rest ... am i wrong?


FORGET everything you THINK you know.

I have repeated the steps MANY TIMES now.

STEP 1. MOVE the arrow rest sideways, until you get this result.









THIS is what an arrow rest SIDEWAYS position, that is STRAIGHT ahead looks like.

MOVE your arrow rest SIDEWAYS so you get this result.

*THIS is STEP 1.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Well my sight is not centered ... so i just move the rest matching the wrong centered sight?! this result in a not centered arrow rest ... am i wrong?


STEP 2.

NO more questions,
until you COMPLETE STEP 1 and STEP 2.

SHOULDER height target face
or
hang a single strand of bowstring material.

FOLD a sheet of paper in HALF so you have a CLEAN, STRAIGHT, VERTICAL EDGE.

MOVE the sight LEFT
MOVE the sight RIGHT

MOVE the sight, sideways until you can get this result
when you AIM at the VERTICAL EDGE of the sheet of paper.



If this is too confusing,
then,
try the single strand of bowstring material.

This way,
aiming at a single strand of bowstring material,
there is ZERO confusion.

You MUST SPLIT the single strand of bowstring material.

You MUST get this result 
firing from 2 meters distance.

DUCT TAPE on the floor. Distance between tape on the floor and the target is 2 meters.

MOVE the sight sideways
until you get this result.

TAKE a photo.

THIS is STEP 2.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Well my sight is not centered ... so i just move the rest matching the wrong centered sight?! this result in a not centered arrow rest ... am i wrong?


ONE more time.

STEP 1.

MOVE the arrow rest sideways position,
until you can get this result.



TAPE an arrow to your riser.

NEXT,
LOAD an arrow on your arrow rest....make the arm for your arrow rest in the FULL UP position.

Now,
look STRAIGHT DOWN.

Your arrow rest,
when the arrow rest SIDEWAYS POSITION is in a BETTER starting SIDEWAYS position..

will look like this.



Like two railroad tracks.

LOOSEN the bolt
and then move the arrow rest SIDEWAYS
until you get this result.



LOCK the bolt, tighten the bolt
to LOCK down this STARTING SIDEWAYS position.

NO ruler.
NO laser.

JUST your eyeballs is MORE than sufficient for this STARTING sideways position
for the arrow rest.

*THIS is STEP 1. *


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

itstoolate said:


> Well my sight is not centered ... so i just move the rest matching the wrong centered sight?! this result in a not centered arrow rest ... am i wrong?


STEP 2.

SPLIT a single strand of bowstring material.

ONLY MOVE the sight to the LEFT.
ONLY move the sight to the RIGHT.

UNTIL you get this result.

TAKE a photo.



2 meters should be challenging enough.

My more ADVANCED students...

they do this at 5 yards...4,6 meters.









YOU ADJUST the SIGHT
to do this exercise.

MOVE the sight mm to the LEFT.
MOVE the sight mm to the RIGHT.

Might be a 1 mm move to the left or right OF THE SIGHT.
Might be a 0,5 mm move to the LEFT or RIGHT of the SIGHT.
Might be a 0,25 mm move to the LEFT or RIGHT of the SIGHT

to get THIS result at 2 meters.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*DRAW length and bareshafts and a FLASHLIGHT or LASER POINTER*



itstoolate said:


> So is after this tuning the arrow rest tuned to the center of the bow??
> 
> Why is the bareshaft saying to me that my DL is too long/short?
> 
> At post #9 ... why is the bareshaft hitting so far away of the bullseye? At 1 meters i sighted in the bareshaft ... is the distance making that much differences?


Bareshafts and FLETCHED arrows at 22 yards.

One of my students.


So,
WHAT is going on with BARESHAFT that misses to the LEFT or to the RIGHT?
*I was AIMING AT THE BULLSYE with the bareshaft.*

20 yards...18 meters



*WHY does the bareshaft miss SOOOOO FAR to the LEFT,
when I was AIMING at the BULLSEYE?????*

Answer = bow DRAW LENGTH and form.

WHAT?
How is this possible?

ANSWER = take a laser pointer and DUCT TAPE the laser pointer to your RELEASE side FOREARM.

HERE is an example.



This is from a How's My Form thread YEARS ago.

Do you see the DASHED RED LINE?

PRETEND that the DASHED RED LINE is a LASER BEAM.

Do you see that the DASHED RED LINE is POINTING to the SHOOTER's RIGHT?

The DASHED RED LINE, the LASER BEAM, the FLASH LIGHT BEAM shows you WHERE the bareshaft is going to FLY.


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## 6APPEAL (Sep 1, 2009)

sub'd


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## SpeedStar (Aug 25, 2014)

Tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

With the draw length THIS MUCH too long,
the bareshaft is going to miss a LONG WAYS to the right.





The RIGHT forearm,
the COMPASS direction for the right forearm is 24 degrees NORTH EAST.

The arrow is assumed to be pointed DUE NORTH.

So,
if this fella is shooting 20 yards,
aiming at a bullseye 20 yards away...

the bareshaft is going to MISS nearly 27 feet to the RIGHT.



THIS is an EXTREME case of the draw length WAY too long.

So,
the FIX is to adjust the draw length of the bow, to BETTER fit this shooter.

NEW compass direction for the RELEASE side forearm.

TO get to THIS compass direction for the RIGHT forearm,
for THIS shooter...

the bow draw length must be adjusted MUCH MUCH MUCH shorter.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
ONE more time.

Fire fletched arrows at 20 yards.
SEE what you get.

MOVE the arrow rest to fine tune the arrows hitting into the bullseye.

THIS is what I get at 20 yards,
with a bow IN SPEC,
with the 29-inch draw length module.



With MY system,
I VERY VERY EARLY ON
TEST draw length
with a BARESHAFT...
YES,

I was aiming at the bullseye.

THIS is what I get,
with a BOW IN SPEC,
the correct ATA,
the correct brace height,
the correct draw length, set to 29-inches with a 29-inch DRAW LENGTH module.

The BARESHAFT missed to the LEFT of the bullseye,
when I aimed at the bullseye.

My arrow rest is still pointed DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD, LIKE THIS.








I used my RESULTS based tuning,
at 2 meters ....about 2 yards...some thing REALLY CLOSE
to adjust the sight pins SIDEWAYS POSITION...

I aimed at the EDGE of a sheet of paper, standing REALLY CLOSE..
I moved the SCOPE sideways, until I can do THIS..



I also do this SIGHT PINS or SCOPE windage setting adjustment with a SINGLE STRAND of bowstring,
standing REALLY CLOSE






So,
after these INITIAL adjustments
to the arrow rest (POINTING dead straight ahead....no tape measures)

after these INITIAL adjustments
to the SIDEWAYS position of the sight pins, or scope dot...(SPLIT a string just 2 yards away)...

then,
I fire a group of fletched arrows
at 20 yards,
and NOW, I move the arrow rest SIDEWAYS
until all the FLETCHED arrows hit the bullseye.

PRETTY SIMPLE.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

The NEXT step,
is to see what happens with a BARESHAFT.

NO tweaking the sight.
NO tweaking the arrow rest.

JUST fling a bareshaft.



AIM at the bullseye,
JUST like the prior step,
where you fired the fletched arrows.

IF you are right handed,
and the bareshaft misses the bullseye,
when YOU AIMED at the bullseye

and the bareshaft misses to the LEFT...

MAKE the bow draw length 1/4-inch LONGER.

I talk about how to do this, in the DVD.

Then,
with my bow NOW OUT OF SPEC,
with my bow draw length 1/4-inch LONGER...

and OUT of SPEC..

I test the NEW group size.



NOT bad eh?

BUT
BUT
BUT
the group is NOT in the yellow anymore?

Well,
I made the bow DRAW LENGTH out of spec.

Well,
I am right handed.

With the bow draw length NOW 1/4-inch LONGER,
and
SINCE I am RIGHT HANDED...

the SUPER TIGHT arrow group is now missing HIGH and RIGHT.

*The SIZE of the arrow group
is COMPLETELY CONTROLLED by bow DRAW LENGTH (now 1/4-inch OUT of SPEC, and LONGER and in-between-DL module sizes...ON PURPOSE

and

arrow rest SIDEWAYS POSITION*

REMEMBER
how we set the arrow rest STARTING SIDEWAYS position, DEAD straight ahead?

REMEMBER 
how we FINE tuned the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position at 20 yards, until ALL the FLETCHED arrows are hitting the bullseye at 18 meters (20 yards)

REMEMBER
that the NEXT STEP was a DRAW LENGTH TEST,
and the BARESHAFT missed to the LEFT...of the bullseye, while AIMING at the bullseye...for a RIGHT handed shooter?

So,
I tweak the draw LENGTH OUT of SPEC
and TEST the RESULTS.

RESULTS based tuning.

So,
when the arrow rest AND the bow draw length are both AT THE BEST POSITION...

I get TIGHTER arrow groups...

cuz,
I am only an AVERAGE JOE shooter.

When you get your groups, with FLETCHED arrows REALLY TIGHT

LIKE THIS



*DO NOT MOVE the arrow rest.*

Only move the target sight/pin sight UP or DOWN to change POINT of impact for HEIGHT.

Only move the sight windage (sideways adjust on the sight) to change POINT of IMPACT for sideways position.


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## Jufrio (Sep 18, 2012)

Tag


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## Govtrapper (Mar 24, 2012)

Tagged


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## nakedninja (Sep 30, 2002)

Tag


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## Erie (Aug 5, 2013)

saved until we get the DVD!


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## Hoyt_27 (Nov 30, 2013)

Tagged


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## flopduster (Nov 3, 2009)

Tag


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

What about d-loop (nock) height and peep sight height? Also, if you don't have a draw board, where do you adjust nock height to if using a lizard tongue rest and not a drop away?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

xavier102772 said:


> What about d-loop (nock) height and peep sight height? Also, if you don't have a draw board, where do you adjust nock height to if using a lizard tongue rest and not a drop away?


For a lizard tongue...(spring steel blade arrow rest).
That is a special case.

Search KITCHEN TABLE METHOD.

Start a new thread asking about spring steel blade arrow rest tuning.
I will explain how to do it.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Start with 30 degrees on the blade.

Makes the blade more cushy. Start with 0.008 inch thickness, regardless of arrow weight.



Paper triangle. Bottom leg = 1.750-inches.
Vertical leg = 1.00-inch.

This is a 30 degree reference.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Your bow sideways on the kitchen table.



Support the arrow with a stack of DVD boxes.
Make arrow parallel to your target sight.

MOVE the blade rest all the WAY down,
so the blade does NOT touch the arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Move the blade rest all the way to the bottom of the vertical travel
to get the blade out of the way.



Now,
move the blade rest UP closer to the arrow tube.



Until the blade just KISSES the arrow tube, with ZERO bending.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

This is the starting blade arrow rest position.

You can do this on the floor, as well.



So,
you can see that I use a Torqueless Loop, as well,
in addition to Beiter Asymmetric nocks, with the angled forwards nock groove.





Torqueless loops are a PAIN in the butt.
I built mine 4 times, until I got the length correct.

If the Torqueless Loop is too long, bareshafts will miss to the RIGHT of fletched groups, and your fletched groups will be LARGER (RH shooter).
If the Torqueless Loop is short, bareshafts will miss to the LEFT of fletched groups, and your fletched groups will be LARGER...(RH shooter).

If and when you finally dial in the Torqueless Loop length to PERFECTION for YOU,
you MIGHT get groups like this at 20 yards.



After you dial in your stabilizer,
the bow tuning (vertical nock travel...draw length setting for the bow).

Can a d-loop work with a blade rest?

Maybe.

Didn't work so well for me.
Got the endless bareshafts missing LOW, with a blade rest and d-loop.
Torqueless loop and Blade Rest gives me DEAD level nock travel, fletched and bareshafts hitting the EXACT same height.

With a BLADE,
with beiter nocks
with 30 degree blade angle
with a Torqueless Loop and the Kitchen Table method...

I can get a bareshaft to NAIL the x-ring at 20 yards



and have the fletched arrow also hit the top edge of the masking tape (I aimed to the left, to not kill the bareshaft).



So,
try this with your d-loop

and if you are a PAPER tuner
and you get ENDLESS tail high paper tears (nock is flying tail high)

and no matter what you try,
you cannot get rid of the HIGH straight up paper tear,
with a blade rest...

try a thinner blade,
flatten the blade angle to 30 degrees,
try the KITCHEN table method
and if still you cannot get rid of the STRAIGHT UP paper tear (bareshaft always flying LOWER than fletched..at 20 yards)

then,
try Beiter Asymmetric nocks (angled forward nock groove)
and a TORQUELESS Loop.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

xavier102772 said:


> What about d-loop (nock) height and peep sight height? Also, if you don't have a draw board, where do you adjust nock height to if using a lizard tongue rest and not a drop away?


So,
blade rest,
set the nock height (d-loop) for a LEVEL arrow.

Peep sight should be set to fit your HEAD,
your eyeball,
when you open your eyes,
and you have your release hand at anchor,
you can see through the peep.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

xavier102772 said:


> What about d-loop (nock) height and peep sight height? Also, if you don't have a draw board, where do you adjust nock height to if using a lizard tongue rest and not a drop away?


Once the d-loop is SET for a LEVEL Arrow...
leave the d-loop alone.

ALL further adjustments
are to the BLADE arrow rest height,
to the 2 thousandths of an inch.

THICKNESS of a sheet of paper = 0.003-inches.
Blade rests are REALLY REALLY touchy about arrow rest height.

Tuning a BLADE rest to 1/16th is NOT good enough.

1/16th = 0.062 inches.
1/32nd = 0.031 inches
1/64th = 0.015 inches
1/128th = 0.008 inches
1/256th = 0.004 inches.

If you have a blade rest WITHOUT a micro adjust...

then,
you need to scotch tape a sheet of paper...to the blade rest.
THEN, cut the sheet of paper, through the scotch tape.





Now,
take a knife and split the paper,
between the upper and lower parts of the blade arrow rest,
so you can SEE how much you have moved the arrow rest...LEFT-DOWN

and repeat on the SIDE of the arrow rest,
so you can see how much you have moved the arrow rest...UP-DOWN.



You can now MOVE the blade rest,
IF you don't have micro adjust

the WIDTH of ONE pen line,
the WIDTH of 1/2 PEN line.

Blade rests are THIS picky.


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## skell (Dec 18, 2009)

Tagged


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## BW321 (Feb 3, 2014)

Tagged


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## eyedoc (Aug 17, 2005)

Subscribed. Once again Nuts and Bolts provides a wealth of knowledge on an easy to follow format!


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

in for the order of tuning.....


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## Mrcnwlvrn (Feb 24, 2014)

Tagged


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## curt1521 (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks for the info. Thanks!


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## MayDie (Jul 29, 2009)

How are you changing the DL in between mods?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MayDie said:


> How are you changing the DL in between mods?


Most fixed draw length cams are available in 1/2-inch sizes.
MOST draw length modules are available in 1/2-inch sizes.

I go into detail, in my DVD how to tune draw length IN BETWEEN DL module sizes, IN BETWEEN FIXED DL cam sizes
so this experiment shows what happens, when you LEARN how to TUNE the draw length 1/4-inch.

BONE STOCK IN SPEC, Maitland Zeus 2nd Gen.
29-inch DL module.
Maitland Archery is out of business.
So, draw length modules are pretty HARD to find.

ATA in spec.
BRACE height in spec.

THIS is the 20 yard group size....when I shoot MY bow in MY hands.



THIS is with the TOP CAM dialed into ZERO CAM lean at full draw.
THIS is with the arrow rest sideways position, SET with NO tape measure, so the arrow is blocking the bowstring, DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD. EYEBALLS is good enough for a STARTING position.
THIS is with the SIGHT windage set at 2 yards.



ONE fella, was asking WHY I nailed the EDGE of the paper at 2 yards away,
if I aimed at the bullseye.

I had to clarify, I was 2 yards away, and I aimed at the EDGE of the paper, to set SIGHT WINDAGE.

To make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR,
this is another way to set sight windage at 2 yards.

AIM at a plumb bob string.





I set sight windage at 2 yards, at REALLY CLOSE range,
after I set the STARTING sideways position of the arrow rest, so the arrow is BLOCKING the bowstring, POINTING DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD,
no LASERS
no tape measure
just your EYEBALLS for DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD,
NOT crooked LEFT
NOT crooked RIGHT,
the ARROW and the arrow rest pointing DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD.

So,
with the draw length at 29-inches,
using 29-inch draw length modules...

bow in SPEC

I get this at 20 yards.




BOW out of spec,
by TWEAKING THE CABLES
to CHANGE the bow OUT OF SPEC ON PURPOSE
to MAKE the draw length OUT OF SPEC on purpose...

I get this group at 20 yards.



BUT
BUT
BUT

the group,
is NICE and TIGHT
BUT
BUT
BUT

you missed HIGH and RIGHT.

WHAT next?

When you miss HIGH and RIGHT,
but the GROUP is SMACKING ARROWS TOGETHER...

DO NOT TOUCH the arrow rest,
ONLY move the SIGHT WINDAGE
ONLY move the SIGHT ELEVATION.

THE SIGHT has ZERO effect on GROUP SIZE.

THE SIGHT only moves the group up or down.
THE SIGHT only moves the GROUP left or right.

ONLY DRAW LENGTH, dialed in to the 1/4-inch or BETTER (smaller adjustment...OUT OF SPEC ON PURPOSE)
will TIGHTEN up your groups.

ONLY arrow rest position, PREFERABLY DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD for STARTERS will TIGHTEN up YOUR GROUPS.

AFTER TWEAKING the sight.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MayDie said:


> How are you changing the DL in between mods?


Sooo,
with ZERO CAM lean on TOP, for STARTERS
IF you have a yoke cable bow

soooo,
with the ARROW blocking the bowstring DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD for STARTERS

shoot 20 yard groups, shoulder height bullseye.

TWEAK the arrow rest when shooting 20 yards,
in TINY amounts to get the arrow group CENTERED on the bullseye.



IF you are right handed,
and to CENTER the fletched arrows onto the bullseye..

IF the only way you can PUT three fletched arrows INTO the YELLOW rings..that's a 3-inch CIRCLE

IF the ONLY way you can do THIS, is by moving your arrow rest CROOKED RIGHT...OBVIOUSLY CROOKED RIGHT
your draw length is TOO LONG by MORE than 1/4-inch.

DO not yoke tune.
PUT the arrow rest back to the spot, where the arrow is BLOCKING the bowstring, DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD.

FIND a draw length module 1/2-inch SHORTER.

BUT
BUT
BUT

I'm gonna be all CRAMPED UP!!!

Not necessarily.



SOMETIMES, a shooter is SOOOO used to bending his bow arm,
AND leaning backwards.....

in this case, ZERO change in draw length,
and MASSIVE changes in the form was all it took, to CURE HOLDING LOW
and with the NEW form, BUSTING NOCKS at 30 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MayDie said:


> How are you changing the DL in between mods?


So,
I fired a bareshaft at 20 yards,
to figure out if BOW draw length was too short for me
or
to figure out if the BOW draw length was too long for me.






When THIS happens,
this is NOT an arrow spine problem.

THIS is an alignment problem,
this is the RELEASE FOREARM pointing in the WRONG COMPASS DIRECTION.

So,
the FIX is to GROW the draw length about 1/4-inch LONGER.

HOW?

SHRINK THE ATA.
THAT simple.

SHRINK THE ATA, and the brace height grows LONGER
and the bow draw length grows LONGER.

So,
if you have a YOKE CABLE bow...

SHRINK BOTH CABLES.

So,
if you have a Binary NO YOKE cable bow,
SHRINK BOTH CABLES...but be VERY VERY CAREFUL with the Binary No Yoke CABLE BOW...to GROW the draw length 1/4-inch LONGER.

*When you SHRINK the ATA of the Binary NO YOKE cable bow, to GROW the draw length 1/4-inch LONGER
TWO things happen:

a) draw weight goes up
b) holding weight can DANGEROUSLY GO TOO LOW.*

So,
when you SHRINK the ATA of the Binary NO YOKE cable bow, go SLOW...and TEST the NEW draw weight and holding weight on a draw board, and make sure
the HOLDING WEIGHT does NOT go below 20%.

IF you discover your BINARY NO YOKE cable bow, 
IF you discover that you would do better with about 1/4-inch LONGER DL...

MUCH SAFER to get the 1/2-inch LONGER DL module
and go 1/4-inch SHORTER in draw length
by GROWING the ATA
by MAKING the CABLES LONGER than SPEC
by REMOVING TWISTS from both cables

sooo the NEW SIDE EFFECTS

a) draw weight drops a little bit
b) holding weight INCREASES a little bit, which is MUCH MUCH SAFER.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MayDie said:


> How are you changing the DL in between mods?


Hybrid cam bow is pretty simple to GROW the draw length 1/4-inch-ISH.

1) ADD 5 twists to the BOTTOM of the buss cable, the BOTTOM cable end loop.

2) ADD maybe 3.5 or 4 twists to the CONTROL cable (top end loop is easiest to work with).
TEST the cam sync.



ADD or REMOVE a half twist on the control cable
to fine tune the length of the control cable
until you get THIS RESULT at 20 yards.



My draw weight went UP from 58 lbs to 62 lbs...TOO HEAVY for me.
So,
I removed 1 turn off BOTH limb bolts and the draw weight went back down to 58 lbs.

BOW is still out of spec, ON PURPOSE.
BRACE is slightly MORE than spec,
so

draw length is also slightly MORE than spec.

THAT is ALL I did,
to go from THIS group....



to THIS group, at 20 yards.


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## scarr (Dec 13, 2008)

tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MayDie said:


> How are you changing the DL in between mods?


Sooo,
IF you tweak the draw length 1/4-inch..

the PURPOSE is to CHANGE your shooting form, your shooting posture.

THIS WILL HAVE ZERO EFFECT
if you continue to LEAN BACKWARDS
and just BEND YOUR BOW ARM ELBOW MORE than before.

The tweaking the draw length 1/4-inch SHORTER
is DESIGNED to PUSH YOUR BUTT away from the shooting line,
which
will automatically FORCE your two armpits to MOVE CLOSER to the shooting line...

cuz,
the idea is to have the EXACT SAME anchor as ALWAYS,
and FORCE you to LEAN FORWARDS (the opposite of LEANING BACKWARDS).

So,
to really make the point ABSOLUTELY CLEAR...

here is a series of photos
that shows what happens when I teach a student, how to change the bow draw length a FULL 1.75-inches SHORTER THAN his usual.

NOTICE the CHANGES in SHOOTING POSTURE.

GROUPS sizes will ONLY SHRINK if you MOVE your BUTT away from the shooting line, and GET your backbone MORE vertical.

WHY?
CUZ,
what the 1/4-inch CHANGE in draw length is trying to do,
when you go SHORTER and SHORTER and SHORTER in draw length,
I am trying to CHANGE the compass direction for your RELEASE FOREARM.





To make it even more obvious.

HERE is a photo of a fella with a CRAZY long draw length.



Broadheads missing to the RIGHT of field points...missing a LONG LONG ways to the right.
This is where you hear about folks who say they MAXED OUT the arrow rest to the RIGHT, and no change in broadheads missing WAY WAY WAY right.
This is where you hear about folks who say they MAXED OUT the arrow rest to the LEFT, and no change in broadheads missing WAY WAY WAY right.
THIS is where you hear about they TRIED YOKE TUNING, and no change in broadheads missing to the RIGHT.

THIS is where you hear about they TRIED TWISTING up the LEFT yoke leg MORE and MORE and MORE and MORE and the string DERAILED, cuz the cam lean was SOO bad, the string rolled over the lip.



RED dashed line is the PRETEND laser pointer beam,
the PRETEND laser pointer is duct taped to this fella's RELEASE SIDE forearm.

Bareshafts will miss right.
Broadheads will miss right.

PERIOD.

Not an arrow spine issue being WAY TOO WEAK.





WAY over-bowed,
and from elbow to wrist,
you can see the forearm is pointed WAY to the RIGHT of the arrow flight path...the desired direction for the arrow.

NO amount of yoke tuning is going to fix this.

NO amount of going stiffer with the arrow will fix this.
NO amount of moving the arrow rest to the RIGHT, will fix this.

Strictly a bow way too heavy (see MASSIVE arch in back)
strickly a bow several inches too long (way wrong draw length....probably a 27-inch draw length, fitted with a 29-inch draw length bow, running 3/4-inches LONGER than spec).


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Very long story short.

BEFORE yoke tuning
BEFORE stabilizer tuning

get the arrow rest sideways position, EYEBALLED
so your arrow just plain BLOCKS the bowstring, pointed DEAD straight ahead.

Work your sight windage at POINT blank distance,
so you can hit a plumb bob string at 2 yards. REALLY basic bore-sighting your FRONT SIGHT...for a bow, the sight pins.

Then,
go long,
20 yards,
60 yards.....whatever distance floats your bow.

AT LONG range,
which could be 20 yards for one fella
which could be 60 yards for another fella

TUNE the arrow rest
so you get your arrows DEAD in the spot.



So,
you moved the arrow rest a TINY BIT,
and you got OK size, AVERAGE groups.

HOW do you KNOW if this is your TRUE accuracy potential?

YOU don't.

I have shown folks their TRUE accuracy potential HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of times by now.
I have ONLINE STUDENTS all OVER the world.

TEST
EXPERIMENT
VERIFY

BUT
BUT
BUT
you have always shot this 69-inch draw length...for DECADES.
or you have always shots this 34-inch draw length...for DECADES.

Yup,
I hear this all the time.
And,
sometimes I only change their form, and leave the draw length alone, cuz I see the landmarks, the biomechanical positions of the joints.

And,
sometimes, I change their form AND the bow draw length

until we get the group size SMALLER than ever before in their lives.

So,
this is a BASIC,
EXPERIMENT
and try to TWEAK the draw length IN BETWEEN MODULES sizes, ON PURPOSE...like a 1/4-inch LONGER or 1/4-inch SHORTER.

IF your groups SHRINK DRAMATICALLY,
then,
we did a good thing.

RESULTS based tuning.

NO theory.
ONLY results.






So,
AFTER you do the 1/4-inch DRAW LENGTH tweaking EARLY EARLY in the ORDER of TUNING..

save YOKE tuning for 60 yard group tuning
save STABILIZER TUNING for AFTER you do the 1/4-inch DL FRANKEN-STEIN work.

WHAT happens
when you follow MY ORDER of TUNING...which is basically
WHAT MY DVD does.....

SEND me an email to get onto the PRE-ORDER LIST


Your 20 yard groups can go from THIS...



to THIS...



to THIS...




*to FINALLY THIS, at the END of the ORDER of TUNING...MY WAY.*




NOW,
PS....

this ONLY works for AVERAGE JOES

cuz,
I'm just an AVERAGE JOE as well,
and I specialize in AVERAGE JOES...

as ALL my online students AROUND the WORLD can tell you
and
as ALL my seminar students can tell ya.

hehehehehehehehehehehe


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

:clap::RockOn:Another awesome explosion of knowledge! Repetition works Alan, Repetition works Alan, Repetition works Alan, can't wait for the vid!:clap::RockOn:


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## Alphashooter (Aug 22, 2010)

Tag. Thanks for taking the time sir!


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## tjb393 (Jan 2, 2014)

Tagged


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## BullZ-I (Jan 17, 2012)

Tagged


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

tag


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## cnvf250 (Oct 15, 2012)

I want to make sure I understand. 

I am hitting about 4 inches left of fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 20 yards. This means my draw lengths is to short. Twist cables to lengthen Draw length? 

I am hitting about 4 inches right of fletched arrow with bare shaft at 20 yards. This means my draw length is to long. Untwist Cables to shorten Draw length?


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## GBREWER21 (Dec 29, 2005)

tag


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

cnvf250 said:


> I want to make sure I understand.
> 
> I am hitting about 4 inches left of fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 20 yards. This means my draw lengths is to short. Twist cables to lengthen Draw length?
> 
> I am hitting about 4 inches right of fletched arrow with bare shaft at 20 yards. This means my draw length is to long. Untwist Cables to shorten Draw length?


For ME,
a right handed shooter...

THIS result,


SUCKY groups at 20 yards...

I TESTED my draw length
by firing a Bareshaft with ZERO tape at the back end,
the bareshaft also has NO base of the vane remaining...

just a nock, at the back end

I got THIS result



Bareshaft missed about 8-inches LEFT.

I am RIGHT handed.

So,
this means I gotta FIX my alignment for the release forearm
this means I gotta FIX my FORM.

So,
I FIX my FORM
by making the ATA of the bow SHORTER, OUT OF SPEC.

HOW did I fix a baresahft missing 8-inches LEFT,
for a RIGHT handed shooter?

I SHRUNK THE ATA of the bow.

HOW did I shrink the ATA of the bow
(remember, this is with the TOP CAM adjusted for ZERO lean)
(remember, this is with the arrow rest adjusted for the arrow to BLOCK the bowstring, with the arrow pointed DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD...no LASERS, no TAPE measure...just STRAIGHT AHEAD).

So
how did I SHRINK the ATA of the bow?

Well,
since this is a hybrid cam bow,
which means,
I have a BUSS CABLE
and I have a CONTROL CABLE...

for my MAitland Zeus 2nd Gen bow...

I ADDED 5 twists to the BOTTOM of the buss cable...the BOTTOM END loop...(not the yoke legs)...use your fingers and go ALL THE WAY to the bottom of the buss cable
and ADD 5 twists,
to make the bow ATA shorter
to GROW the brace height,
to MAKE the draw length SLIGHTLY LONGER.

BUT,
my draw weight went from 58 lbs UP to 62 LBS.
TOO much draw weight for me.

So,
I also removed 1 turn from the top limb bolt.
So,
I also remove 1 turn from the bottom limb bolt.

AHHHHHH

draw weight back to 58 lbs.


BUT
BUT
BUT,

since I ADDED 5 twists to the BUSS CABLE (bottom end loop)

I also have to ADD SOME TWISTS to the control cable.

I don't know how TIGHTLY twisted your control cable is.

SOOO,
try ADDING 3 or 3.5 twists to the control cable.

TEST your cam sync.



IF you do NOT get this result with 3 TWISTS added to your control cable


try another half twist, so you are at 3.5 twists ADDED to your control cable.

DO you get this result?



NO?

3.5 twists ADDED to control cable NOT ENOUGH?

Try 4.0 twists ADDED to control cable, in TOTAL, which means you ADD another 1/2 twist to the control cable.

Do you get this result?



NO?

Try another 1/2 twist EXTRA to the control cable.

Do you get this result?



YES?????????????


Then,
shoot 3 fletched arrows at 20 yards.

Do you get a SMALLER group?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

cnvf250 said:


> I want to make sure I understand.
> 
> I am hitting about 4 inches left of fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 20 yards. This means my draw lengths is to short. Twist cables to lengthen Draw length?
> 
> I am hitting about 4 inches right of fletched arrow with bare shaft at 20 yards. This means my draw length is to long. Untwist Cables to shorten Draw length?


SInce your BARESHAFT is missing only 4-inches LEFT of the fletched arrow...

MAYBE you only need 2 twists added to the buss cable
or
MAYBE you only need 2.5 twists added to the buss cable.

Then,
you can try 1 extra twist to the control cable
or
you can try 1.5 extra twists to the control cable
or you can try 2 extra twists to the control cable.....IF you have a hybrid cam bow (one buss cable, one control cable).

You get the idea.

BARESHAFT missing LEFT of fletched?
RIGHT handed shooter?

SHRINK ATA to GROW the draw length, by working BOTH CABLES shorter.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

info. tag.


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## tman704 (May 9, 2003)

Yowsa, some great info here!


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## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

Tag good info. Can't wait for DVDs..


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## Dylanr77 (Oct 25, 2013)

Awesome post! Shows me how little I know about archery! Can't wait to try out this new info


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## Altec111 (Sep 11, 2008)

Tag.

Alan - get that video done!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Altec111 said:


> Tag.
> 
> Alan - get that video done!


Working on it.
I will go into MORE detail,
for the HOW's and WHY's for the draw length tuning down to the 1/4-inch.


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## mnfuel (Jun 28, 2014)

Alan I think in for the DVD, but want to change to the download


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## DSquire (Jan 4, 2009)

Marked


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

ttt


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## lance.stone.7 (Jul 24, 2014)

Tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> Alan I think in for the DVD, but want to change to the download


Nope.

You have not sent me an email yet,
so you are not on my PRE-ORDER list.

The audio movie soundtrack has gone through another round of editing
and I am down to only 4 HOURS of material.

Screenshot of my 34 track mixing board.



This DVD is really a BOAT load of work.


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## hookedonbow (Jul 24, 2010)

marked...


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## BowtechOkie4498 (Dec 6, 2013)

Tagged


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
For example:
1) Install rest
2) Install sight
3) Adjust arrow rest center shot
4) ......
5) ......
...
...
...
...

I have read a lot of threads with your explanations of the whole process but it is too much for my brain to follow :wink: . Now after reading all of them I know what to do in each step but got confused on step by step.
Also is the process the same if I want to use the torqueless loop from the beginning?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


1) slap on arrow rest.
2) slap on sight
3) loosen the sideways lock down bolt and load arrow
4) move arrow rest sideways until arrow blocks the string.

Should look like this. NO tape measure.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


5) move arrow rest up or down
....until the arrow TUBE matches the arrow rest mounting bolt hole centerline

BUT
BUT
BUT

"I have a rubber shelf covering up my arrow rest bolts. I cannot SEE the arrow rest bolts on the ARROW side of the bow."

SIGH.

Put masking tape on the riser, at the height of the arrow rest bolt, centerline.
NOW you can see the arrow rest mounting bolt centerline height.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


6) INSTALL d-loop.

Put bow, bottom metal thingy on the floor/carpet.
PUT both limb pockets against any wall.

HOLD arrow LEVEL.

TIE on the d-loop. THIS is option 1.



IF you have a drop away arrow rest,
disconnect the cord, so the arm comes to the FULL UP position, if you have a limb driven drop away.

You want the arrow rest in the FULL UP position, when you do this.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


6) OPTION 2.

YOU heard on the INTERNET that the arrow nock must be TAIL HIGH.

FINE.

Set the d-loop so that the nock is TAIL HIGH, as much as you like.

MAYBE you set the nock TAIL HIGH 1/32nd inch.
MAYBE you set the nock TAIL HIGH 1/16th inch.
MAYBE you set the nock TAIL HIGH 3/32nd inch.
MAYBE you set the nock TAIL HIGH 1/8th inch.


So,
when you SET the arrow nock TAIL HIGH,
when you install the d-loop...

then,
do NOT be surprised
when you come back and ask WHY AM I getting a TAIL HIGH paper tear,
when PAPER TUNING??????

DO not then MOVE the arrow rest DOWN or UP.

BRING the d-loop back down to LEVEL
and re-test.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


7) set the top cam lean to ZERO, if you have a yoke cable bow...

BUT
BUT
BUT

you do not EYEBALL cam lean with the bow at rest.

The CAM lean at rest, means NADA
MEANS ZILCH
do not do it.

If you do not have a draw board,
then,
just plain SKIP this step.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


7) IF you have a bow press...IF you have taken the 30 minutes to build a bow holding at full draw device...

then,
go USE IT.














So,
this is where SOOOO many folks get confused.

If the bow riser is tilting sideways on the draw board, the 1/2-inch black gas pipe,
use a CHAIR to keep the bow riser vertical..check with a 24-inch level.

TIE the riser to the chair, bucket, brick, box
to get the riser VERTICAL.

OK?


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


7) NOW, use a 6-inch level, try square and check the top cam for VERTICAL, when the BOW IS AT FULL DRAW.

If the yoke leg on the left is TOO SHORT, the cam will NOT be vertical.

You know what to do,
if the bow is at full draw
and the top cam is NOT vertical
cuz the LEFT SIDE yoke leg is TOO SHORT.

YOu goto the bow press
and you squeeze the limb tips
and you un-hook the left yoke leg end loop
and you UNTWIST the LEFT yoke leg
and you put the left yoke leg end loop back onto the top axle

and you go back to the draw board
and you tie the riser to a chair leg
and you make the riser VERTICAL again.

NOW,
use your try square
and check the top cam for VERTICAL.

*IF you don't have a draw board,
SKIP
THIS
STEP.*


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


8) SETUP target at 2 yards...6 FEET and YOUR shoulder height, a bullseye at YOUR shoulder height.
EVEN better, forget the paper target
and just do a PLUMB BOB string, so there is ZERO confusion.

I fired an arrow at the edge of a sheet of paper,
and a fella asked WHY DID I MISS SO far to the RIGHT,
when the middle of the target is in the middle of the paper.

SIGH.



AIMING at the EDGE of the paper, trying to get a 50/50 hole.



AIMING at the EDGE of a strip of masking tape, to tweak SIGHT WINDAGE.





AIMING at a single strand of bowstring material to SET sight windage..do this at a REALLY REALLY close distance,
AFTER YOU HAVE SET the arrow rest 

sideways position,
to have the arrow BLOCK the bowstring...NOT crooked left, NOT crooked right...but DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD, with no tape measure, with NO laser.





2 YARDS.


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

Marked


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


9) AFTER sight windage is set at POINT BLANK RANGE

now, we go LONG....as LONG as you DARE.

20 yards?
10 yards?
40 yrds?
60 yards?

The MORE the BETTER.

WHY?

We are going to bore sight the arrow rest.

WHAT?
HUH?

Go LONG
and shoot groups.

MOVE the arrow rest,
BORE sight your arrow rest
cuz...

the ARROW REST is the ONLY THING that affects arrow flight,
the ARROW rest (combined with draw length tuning the bow) affects GROUP SIZE.

PERIOD.

MOVE the arrow rest LEFT,
MORE and MORE left

the group sizes GROWS BIGGER.

*We do not CARE about WHERE the group HITS.
THIS IS IMPORTANT.
WE DO NOT CARE where the group HITS.*

FOCUS ONLY ON GROUP SIZE.
TUNE the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position by the 0.002-inch..that's right, the thickness of a sheet of paper = 0.003-inches.

MOVE the arrow rest LEFT or RIGHT
in TINY amounts,
to get the GROUP SIZE as SMALL as possible.

Also,
TUNE the draw length to the 1/4-inch IF YOU DARE.



20 YARDS.

MOVE the arrow rest to the LEFT (like the steering wheel on a car)....if the arrows are missing at 3-o'clock (arrows miss right..arrow hit to the RIGHT of the yellow spot).

MOVE the arrow rest to the RIGHT (like the steering wheel on a car)..if the arrows are missing at 9-o'clock (arrows miss left...arrows hit to the LEFT of the yellow spot).

Do this at 20 yards.
EVEN better,
do that at 30 yards.

MOVE arrow rest sideways to get the arrows in the MIDDLE.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


10) TUNE the draw length of the bow, IN BETWEEN sizes.

BUT
BUT
BUT
my fixed draw length spirals (OLD version) only come in HALF inch sizes.

SO WHAT!

Tune the draw length to the 1/4-inch.

YOU have a RIGHT paper tear.

THIS is not a spine problem.

THIS is a draw length problem
and you need to SHRINK the draw length 1/4-inch.

OR,
you can cover it up
and just yoke tune.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

10)

HOW do you shrink draw length 1/4-inch?

THAT's NOT possible.

FIXED draw length cams only come in HALF inch sizes.
Draw Length MODULES only come in HALF inch sizes.

EVERYBODY knows that.

Sigh.

Since you have a RIGHT paper tear,
then,
you GROW the buss cable LONGER, say 4 twists LONGER
you GROW the control cable LONGER say 3.5 twists LONGER...or thereabouts.

BAM.

DONE.

Check new brace height.
IS the brace height 1/4-inch LESS?

IF not,
make the buss cable 1 twist LONGER...
and
make the control cable 1 twist LONGER.

Check brace height.

IS the brace height now 1/4-inch LESS than spec?


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

Type faster Alan. Lol


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

11) shoot fletched groups at 20 yards. AGAIN.

BEFORE results..an example of bow in SPEC.



AFTER results..an example of bow draw length OUT OF SPEC.



THIS will ONLY work,
when you SHORTEN the bow draw length

IF YOU LEAN FORWARDS,
to work with the NEW SHORTER draw length.

WHAT is leaning FORWARDS?

Well,
with the bow draw length IN SPEC,
you might LOOK LIKE THIS.



AFTER you shorten the bow draw length 1/4-inch SHORTER

you might look like THIS.




*IF shortening the bow draw length 1/4-inch is TOO scary..

SKIP THIS STEP.*


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


12) NOW, you yoke tune.

MANY MANY MANY folks go STRAIGHT to yoke tuning when shooting groups at 20 yards,
when they get a LEFT paper tear..when tuning groups at 20 yards.

A left paper tear for a RIGHT handed shooter
is a draw length that is a skosh too long, or a LOT too long.

You can HIDE this too long draw length
with YOKE TUNING.

LEFT paper tear,
PULL DOWN on the TOP axle, LEFT SIDE...

which means,
you goto the bow press
and you PULL DOWN on the left side of the top axle
by ADDING a half twist 
by ADDING one twist to the LEFT YOKE LEG.

BUT
BUT
BUT

I did that.

I did the 1/2 twist and I still have a LEFT PAPER TEAR.
I did the ONE full twist and I still have a LEFT PAPER TEAR.

Well,
I told ya.

The REAL fix is a draw length change
going SHORTER
to FORCE you to LEAN FORWARDS towards the target.

I had one student
who kept going shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter on the draw length.

Groups continued to suck.

So,
when he took a video
I could see
he continued to lean BACKWARDS
and was just BENDING his bow arm MORE and MORE and MORE and MORE and MORE and MORE.

sigh.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

12) YOKE tuning in SMALL amounts is what you want to do.

YOKE tuning in LARGE amounts is hiding a form problem (LEFT paper tear that does NOT get better is a draw length problem).

If you have the draw length dialed in,
then YOKE tuning should really SKINNY up your 60 yard groups.

IF you work with MY methods,
you really should be getting tight groups at 20 yards,
with the TOP CAM dead vertical
AT
FULL
DRAW.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


13) NOW, since we are tuning at 60 yards...

we also do what is called "GROUP TUNING".

What is THAT?

That,
is when you tweak the arrow rest in THOUSANDTHS of an inch left-right

that,
is when you tweak the arrow rest in THOUSANDTHS of an inch UP-DOWN.

No weekend warrior is gonna NOTICE moving the arrow rest the THICKNESS of a sheet of paper?
RIGHT?

No AVERAGE JOE is gonna NOTICE moving the arrow rest the THICKNESS of a sheet of paper?
RIGHT?

I specialize in AVERAGE JOES...weekend warriors.

TRY IT.

60 yards.

AFTER you have completed STEPS 1-12 IN ORDER.





Sheet of paper, scotch tape, vertical line with BALL POINT PEN.



SLICE paper at the seam between the upper and lower half of the arrow rest.

NOW, you have a match line.
NOW, you can move the arrow rest the WIDTH of the PEN LINE.

NOW, you can move the arrow rest a HALF width of the pen line.

To skinny up your 60 yard groups.

PS

this works for up-down tuning as well.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


14) NOW...we fine tune your stabilizers.

NOW is when we try my STABILIZER SETUP in Three Moves

My keyboard is smoking..typing....too....FAST


----------



## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

Alan so far this is the easiest step by step for my brain to follow. Still little bit to many details but I can follow better then before :wink:


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan I really love how you explain everything in details but can you post a simple step by step tuning process without explaining all the details in each step?
> For example:
> 1) Install rest
> 2) Install sight
> ...


AS requested,
FOURTEEN steps. NO explanation.

1	slap on arrow rest

2	slap on sight

3	loosen sideways lock down bolt and load arrow

4	move arrow rest sideways, until arrow blocks string…pointing dead straight ahead

5	move arrow rest up-down until arrow TUBE matches arrow rest mounting bolt centerline height

6	install d-loop for level arrow or tail high arrow

7	set top cam lean to ZERO, when at full draw in a draw board - SKIP this step, if no draw board

8	2 yards - shoot a plumb bob string from a single strand of bowstring material - split fibers BY SETTING SIGHT PINS WINDAGE

9	AFTER SIGHT PINS WINDAGE at 2 yards, go LONG and boresight the arrow rest sideways position - groups are centered on bullseye

10	TUNE the bow draw length setting to the 1/4-inch, based on bareshaft results at 20 yards - goal = tighter groups

11	tweak draw length in tiny amount to get super tight groups at 20 yards - right paper tear, go shorter on draw length - must lean forwards

12	NOW, you yoke tune, but at long range, say 60 yards - limit to half twist or one twist

13	group tune arrow rest - 2 thousandths of an inch - vertical and horizontal

14	NOW stabilizer tune, using my STABILIZER SETUP in three moves


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan so far this is the easiest step by step for my brain to follow. Still little bit to many details but I can follow better then before :wink:


See Post #148.

Even shorter.


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## tannercutiger (Jul 7, 2008)

tagging for later


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Also is the process the same if I want to use the torqueless loop from the beginning?


Torqueless Loop is not for the faint hearted.

MUST get the length correct.

Took me FOUR TRIES, to dial in the Torqueless Loop length.

When folks say, it does not work,
no difference...

it means they did not take the time to dial in the length.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Torqueless Loop INCREASES the DOWN pressure of the arrow against the BLADE arrow rest.

THIS is the primary benefit.

If you use a blade arrow rest
if your arrow FALLS off the blade arrow rest

the TORQUELESS LOOP will help...TREMENDOUSLY.


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> 1	slap on arrow rest
> 
> 2	slap on sight
> 
> ...


Great . Thank You Alan. You did it again :77:


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> If you use a blade arrow rest
> if your arrow FALLS off the blade arrow rest
> 
> the TORQUELESS LOOP will help...TREMENDOUSLY.


Yes I do use blade arrow rest


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

IF you try a BLADE arrow rest...

and like one fella,
he is getting a TAIL HIGH PAPER TEAR that will NOT go away..

I had this exact same problem,
using a blade arrow rest.

THIS one, in fact.



Spot Hogg Premier, with the spring set tight, so the axle does not rotate.

I tried 45 degree blade angle,
and
I tried 35 degree blade angle
and I tried 30 degree blade angle.

I tried stiffener blade (backer blade)
I tried all the thicknesses of the blade.

I played with tiller tuning.
I played with level d-loop, nock high d-loop.

You name it, I tried it.

I had to use RIDICULOUS amounts of tiller to get the TAIL HIGH paper tear to go away.
I don't paper tune, so what I REALLY MEAN
was that my BARESHAFTs would NOSE DIVE severely.

Soooo,
HOW the HECK did I get THIS result at 20 yards?



I musta spent HUNDRED hours trying to figure out the BLADE arrow rest.

Well,
I never stop learning.

WHEN I figured out how to tune a BLADE rest,
it took 5 MINUTES...not a hundred hours of shooting and tuning and tweaking...

1) 30 degrees blade angle



PAPER triangle...long edge = 1.75-inches
VERTICAL edge = 1.00-inches

this is a 30 degree angle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

2) TRY the thinnest blade possible, the 0.008-inch thickness blade.

BUT
BUT
BUT
it's gonna SAG something SERIOUS.

YUP,
EXACTLY.

We want the blade to BEND.



Bow is sideways on a table.
Get the arrow parallel to the target sight arm.

Raise blade rest higher and higher until the blade touches the arrow, with ZERO BENDING.





NOW,
you have the STARTING HEIGHT position for the blade arrow rest.

When you HOLD the bow straight UP and down,
the BLADE SAGS...which is GOOD.



Bowstring is vertical.
Target sight is horizontal.

BLADE IS SAGGING something SERIOUS.

EXCELLENT.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

3) See the Torqueless LOOP??



TOOK me FOUR tries to get the length DEAD ON PERFECT.

RESULTS?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

THIS IS CRITICAL.



The Torqueless Loop needs a lower and upper tied nocking point.

The TORQUELESS loop bends the bowstring like a recurve bowstring.

*The TORQUELESS loop has the bowstring LEANING SEVERELY FORWARDS, through your NOCK.*

Translation,
if you use SHORT EAR nocks,
you will PINCH off the nock
and you WILL DRY FIRE YOUR BOW
with a Torqueless Loop.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
you gotta leave a TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ROOM for the upper tied nocking point.

THIs means,
the GAP between the LOWER and UPPER tied nock points are REALLY SPREAD VERY WIDE APART
even for my DST 40, which is a 40-inch ATA bow.

If you have a 30-inch ATA bow,
and you TRY a Torqueless Loop, I don't think it will work,
cuz there are NO nocks with EARS long enough to work.



NOCK pinch is a BIG deal with the Torqueless LOOP.

Sooo,
BACK to the draw board.

PUT the arrow, with your FIRST length of Torqueless LOOP on the draw board.

NO upper tied nocking point.

GET the bow SAFELY to full draw.

USE the turnbuckle.



USE the adjustable CHAIN LINK.

USE the backup loop of paracord, in case your Torqueless LOOP lets go.
The BACKUP loop of paracord will connect the draw board HOOK to the bowstring,
so

if the Torqueless LOOP FAILS,
the bowstring is STILL CONNECTED TO THE DRAW BOARD.

HERE is a CLOSEUP photo.



ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for this system to FAIL.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
with the ARROW loaded on the bowstring,
ABOVE your TORQUELESS LOOP...

yes,
this is an early test,
this is a D-LOOP KNOT with both knots SIDE by SIDE...

but,
IMAGINE this is a TORQUELESS LOOP

then,
*you also IMAGINE the arrow nock....I recommend BEITER ASYMMETRIC NOCKS...cuz, well, the NOCK GROOVE is angled FORWARDS, like this bowstring.*

You have to MARK the location of the UPPER surface of the nock.

Now,
IF you ARE ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that this is UNsafe...

well,
we have a solution.

Take masking tape and MARK the location of the upper surface of the BEITER ASYMMETRIC NOCK.

Now,
let down the bow,
take the bow OUT of the draw board,
and NOW,
you have the location where to position the UPPER tied nocking point.

On my DST 40,
the spacing between the UPPER and LOWER tied nocking point
is DOUBLE the height of the BEITER NOCK,
cuz of the SHARP string angle
on a 40-inch ATA bow.

If your bow is LESS than 40-inches ATA
YOUR tied nocking points
will be even FARTHER SPREAD APART.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

What happens if the TORQUELESS LOOP is TOO LONG, for a right handed shooter?

GROUPS will suck and be TOO LARGE at 20 yards.




What happens if the TORQUELESS LOOP is TOO SHORT, for a right handed shooter?

GROUPS will suck and be TOO LARGE at 20 yards.




WHAT happens if you do not take the time to build your Torqueless LOOP
say 4 times
say 5 times
say 6 times...a different length each time

Well,
you will say Torqueless Loops SUCK and are no better than any d-loop,
beside,
NONE of the Pros are using a Torqueless loop,
so

why should I try?

I'm just an AVERAGE JOE...a weekend warrior.

Well,
cuz the AVERAGE JOE...the weekend warrior is EXACTLY who will benefit MOST from the EXACT, SWEET SPOT length Torqueless LOOP
IF you dare to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.

Torqueless LOOP is a PAIN in the REAR,
cuz of the LONG EAR nock requirements
cuz of the TIME and EFFORT to find the SWEET SPOT LENGTH...

like
tuning the draw length to 1/4-inch long.

Sooo
WHAT happens when you find the SWEET SPOT length for the TORQUELESS LOOP?

THIS happens.




WHY do I go to ALL This trouble to type ALL This stuff?

Cuz,
I am an AVERAGE JOE.

Cuz, many many many of us,
are just AVERAGE JOES.

I show you how to shoot MAYBE a little bit better than before...just for AVERAGE JOES.

BACK to the salt mines.

I have 4 hours of final movie soundtrack to play with now.
Spliced everything together, into ONE movie soundtrack from HUNDREDS of audio clips
and I didn't crash my computer.

FULL Blu Ray quality, PRE-CONVERSION to DVD is HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of megabits of data size.


----------



## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

tagged


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> I have 4 hours of final movie soundtrack to play with now.
> Spliced everything together, into ONE movie soundtrack from HUNDREDS of audio clips
> and I didn't crash my computer.
> 
> FULL Blu Ray quality, PRE-CONVERSION to DVD is HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of megabits of data size.


Okay Alan. Thank You for your time typing everything. If you don't mind I will copy everything what you wrote and print it as my personal tuning guide. I will keep it till you come out with the DVD


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

Awesome writeup Alan. Thank you for taking the time.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Okay Alan. Thank You for your time typing everything. If you don't mind I will copy everything what you wrote and print it as my personal tuning guide. I will keep it till you come out with the DVD


Give it a try.
I have tested these methods with folks all over the world, and in seminars throughout the US.

My methods are "un-conventional". Designed for AVERAGE JOES.

Test
EXPERIMENT 
Verify.

Ultimately, let your results guide you.

KEEP good notes
about your starting point.

If you try my methods
and you don't like the result,
since you have notes and photos of what adjustments you did (like growing both cables just 3 twists longer..to reduce your brace height 1/4-inch)
you can EASILY undo the change.


----------



## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> If you have a 30-inch ATA bow,
> and you TRY a Torqueless Loop, I don't think it will work,
> cuz there are NO nocks with EARS long enough to work.


My bow is 35" ATA. Do you think it will work?


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## bowtecher82nd (Feb 19, 2008)

Great Thread


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## milka (Oct 10, 2014)

Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> My bow is 35" ATA. Do you think it will work?


Depends on the draw length.

TRY it on a draw board
and see if the NOCK gets pinched off.

Use the Beiter Asymmetric nock
and that helps a LOT, cuz the nock groove is angled forwards.

If you do not use the Beiter Asymmetric nock,
TEST on the draw board, which you KNOW you need to build
and

see if YOUR nock ears get PINCHED off,
which means you WOULD have a DRY FIRE

if you do NOT build the draw board.

SEE how this works?


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

milka said:


> Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


Well,
FACTORY spec.

What does that REALLY mean?

1) you can check ATA, with limb bolts at maximum.
I don't bother checking ATA, cuz that is a LAZY man's way to confirm maximum draw weight.

So, SKIP the tape measure,
and max out the limb bolts
and then,
put the bow on a draw board,
and measure your actual draw weight.

So,
let's say you purchased a 70 lb bow.

YOU might whip out the tape measure and measure the ATA.

I say SKIP the tape measure
and measure the actual draw weight.

You measure 69 lbs.

Are you ok with 69 lbs of draw weight?

NO??

Well,
break out the portable bow press
and shorten your buss cable, if you have a buss cable bow (hybrid cam bow or single cam bow)...

shorten both control cables, if you have a no yoke, binary cam bow...

shorten both buss cable, if you have a BowTech OverDrive Binary (TM) Dual Cam bow.

See how this works?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

milka said:


> Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


Soo,
the OTHER FACTORY SPEC.

The Brace Height.

So,
you whip out the tape measure to measure the BRACE HEIGHT.

I say, SKIP the tape measure
and I don't bother measuring the BRACE HEIGHT.

WHY?

CUZ,
the BRACE height is a lazy man's way to CHECK the holding weight, with a tape measure.

Sooo,
you KNOW what I'm gonna say,
throw away the tape measure
and get the HOLDING WEIGHT, using a SCALE.

You CAN measure the brace height, if you like..
but,
the MORE important "SPEC" is the holding weight.

So....
you have a 70 lb bow.

The bow WAS delivering 69 lbs of max draw weight.
Sooo,
you shortened the ATA to NOW get 72 lbs of max draw weight.

You have 80% cams.

So,
you SHOULD be getting 20% holding weight.

What is the BRACE height?
Don't know.
Don't care.

What is your holding weight?

72 lbs of draw weight
SHOULD be generating 14.4 lbs of HOLDING weight.

What was the brace height again?

Don't know.
Don't care.

Whip out the draw board and measure the holding weight.

Holding weight, AFTER you tweaked the ATA shorter (meaning you shortened the CABLES)
so you get 72 lbs of DRAW WEIGHT.

You are LOOKING for 14.4 lbs of HOLDING weight.

OH OHHHHHH
you have 13 lbs of holding weight.

NOW WHAT?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

milka said:


> Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


With YOUR bow, tweaked OUT of SPEC,
to hit 72 lbs of draw weight..

you are LOOKING for 14.4 lbs of HOLDING WEIGHT,
but,
you are only GETTING 13 lbs of HOLDING WEIGHT.

Is your bow going to BLOW UP?

No.

WELL, now my bow is OUT OF SPEC?

So what.

It's OK.

SHOOT the bow
and what groups are you getting?

When you SHORT STRING a bow,
the holding weight goes UP...HIGHER than spec.

When you LONG string a bow,
the holding weight goes DOWN...LOWER than spec

this a COMMON way to BOOST PERFORMANCE of a bow.

See how this works?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

milka said:


> Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


Getting your bow into SPEC
is a good starting point.

The point of my entire tuning process in the DVD
is to TEACH ALL OF YOU

how to take a bow OUT OF SPEC, ON PURPOSE

to get the BEST results.

My $400 used AT Classifieds Maitland Zeus,
an EXAMPLE of a CHEAP, inexpensive target bow, from a company that is OUT of BUSINESS,
so the discontinued VTR cam system, is kinda HARD to find draw length modules.

So,
the Maitland Zeus, IN SPEC,
with 29-inch draw length modules...

I GET THIS group.



When I tune the BOW out of spec, ON PURPOSE....

I get this result....working the draw length 1/4-inch OUT OF SPEC, ON PURPOSE.




Soo,
you want to get your bow INTO SPEC,
so you can follow my DVD
to use RESULTS BASED TUNING
to take your bow OUT OF SPEC...ON PURPOSE...

think about that...for a second.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

milka said:


> Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


Shoot your bow, AS-IS.

Do you get groups that do NOT make you happy?



I teach you HOW to take your bow OUT of SPEC,
in this case...

very EARLY in the process,
I teach you to TAKE YOUR BOW OUT OF SPEC..

ON PURPOSE

and I teach you HOW to decide
if you should try 1/4-inch draw length LONGER
or
if you should try 1/4-inch draw length SHORTER

and I teach you HOW to decide
if you should try 1/2-inch draw length LONGER (EXTREMELY RARE)
or
if you should try 1/2-inch draw length SHORTER (VERY VERY VERY COMMON)

or
if you should try 1-inch draw length SHORTER (happens more than you THINK)

or
if you should try 1.5-inch draw length SHORTER (RARE)

or
if you should try 1.75-inch draw length SHORTER (HAPPENED ONCE)

or
if you should try 2-inch draw length SHORTER (NOT YET...but anything is possible)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

This was VERY early in the tuning process,
with my method,
where I test draw length on the bow,
and in MY case,
I only needed to take the bow OUT OF SPEC
tweaking the draw length 1/4-inch.

So,
you wanna put the bow BACK into factory spec, 

BECAUSE......Why again?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

milka said:


> Alan, really great can't wait for the DVD. Before you start the whole tuning process do you make sure the bow is set to factory spec? I know my brand new bow was not factory spec straight out of the box, and shop I got it from just assumed it was.


I tell ALL my online students...

I'm gonna analyze your form photo FIRST,
then,
we are gonna test the RESULTS of how you shoot...as-is

then,
we are gonna EXPERIMENT with form and bow tweaks

and we ONLY keep the tweaks that make your TEST RESULTS BETTER...

which usually means,
I teach my online students how to take their bow OUT OF SPEC,
to make the bow settings DIFFERENT from what their CURRENT settings are.


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## Finnshady (Dec 14, 2012)

Will be getting your DVD, or download version...


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> 7) set the top cam lean to ZERO, if you have a yoke cable bow...


Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


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## ac7473 (Nov 9, 2011)

Tagged


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## Slippyshaft (Dec 20, 2008)

tagged


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## florida life (Sep 28, 2014)

unclejane said:


> FWIW, here's my regime:
> 
> Set knocking point with a bow square, approx. 1/4" above where the arrow would sit on the rest.
> Set center shot by eye roughly aligned with what looks like the plane of the string power stroke.
> ...


No offense but at 10 yards either the bow is not tuned or you can't hit the same spot. 

At 10 yards almost anyone that's not blind should be touching arrows.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


picture.

2x4 is just fine for the backbone.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


Took these photos JUST FOR YOU.



See how the 1/2-inch threaded pipe is wrapped in electrical tape?
The 1/2-inch threaded pipe nipple has an outside diameter or 3/4-inch.

See how the bow wants to lean sideways, cuz the pipe is not level (I did this on purpose).


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


So,
I use a broom stick to hold the bow kINDA vertical, but not DEAD vertical.



do you see how the broom stick makes the bow leaning LEFT?
do you see how no broom stick makes the bow leaning RIGHT?

Do you see how no broom stick or with a broom stick,
the broom stick has ZERO effect on what the yoke cable legs do?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

TWO business cards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


Bow is now at full draw, in a draw board.



THIS is what I mean, by ZERO cam lean,
when the bow is at full draw.

The yoke legs (left leg and right leg)
have been adjusted for length,
in the bow press.

So,
how do I know I have ZERO cam lean?

THE BUSINESS CARDS must look like this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

If your LEFT yoke leg is TOO SHORT...

THIS will not happen.



IF the LEFT yoke leg is TOO SHORT,
then,
the business card and the top cam will only touch at the TOP of the cam.

The business card and the cam will have a GAP at the bottom, near the limb face.

MAKE left yoke leg LONGER.
MAKE right yoke leg SHORTER.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

If your LEFT yoke leg is TOO LONG...

THIS will not happen.



IF the LEFT yoke leg is TOO LONG,
then,
the business card and the top cam will only touch at the BOTOM of the cam.

The business card and the cam will have a GAP at the TOP of the cam.

MAKE left yoke leg SHORTER.
MAKE right yoke leg LONGER.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


So,
TAKE two business cards
and make this HOUSE of CARDS.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Something ain't right. My top cam lean shows as leaning right. I add turns to right side yoke cable and it got more straight but not completely. Then I add more twists and the cam stay the same all the time it won't straighten. What might be wrong? Is my draw board not right? I have my draw board the same as Alan's but instead of the steel channel I used 2X4.


Take this photo of YOUR bow, in your draw board...AT full draw.



Then,
put the two business cards on top of the top limb,
and take THIS photo.


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

Alan will do. Now I'm at work but will do it as soon as I get home.


----------



## jhendri2 (Oct 1, 2011)

tagged


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

Alan I wasn't able to take the picture with business cards. They bent all the time and it is not accurate. But I did find my problem. It wasn't the cam lean but torque. My Saunders Hyper Glide put some torque in the bow. I will start new thread with photos of my cam lean with Saunders Hyper Glide and original Hoyt Slider.


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## Eliteonly (Oct 8, 2011)

This thread wins the Internet. I do have an abnormality it seems. I've went through the while process (which has made a noticeable difference on how well my bow is shooting) but no matter what I've done, the bare shaft hits around 6in left of the fletched. I've tried everything recommended and a few other tricks. Is my spine to blame at this point?


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eliteonly said:


> This thread wins the Internet. I do have an abnormality it seems. I've went through the while process (which has made a noticeable difference on how well my bow is shooting) but no matter what I've done, the bare shaft hits around 6in left of the fletched. I've tried everything recommended and a few other tricks. Is my spine to blame at this point?


Are you right handed?

If so,
boost draw length 1/4-inch longer.

HOW?

Grow brace height 1/4-inch longer.

HOW?

Shorten both cables say 2 twists,
and ATA will be a tiny bit shorter
and
brace height will be a tiny bit longer
and
draw length will be a tiny bit longer.

TEST again.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eliteonly said:


> This thread wins the Internet. I do have an abnormality it seems. I've went through the while process (which has made a noticeable difference on how well my bow is shooting) but no matter what I've done, the bare shaft hits around 6in left of the fletched. I've tried everything recommended and a few other tricks. Is my spine to blame at this point?


Assuming you mean 6-inches left,
when shooting 20 yards.


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## Eliteonly (Oct 8, 2011)

Yes indeed. I started at a measured 28 7/8in draw. I've increased to around it around a 1/4 already(I'll check it again, shooting a PSE Dominator Max, 60lb, 30in Beman 3Deadringer arrows, Trophy Taker blade rest). Should I got to 29.5 on my mod and put it back to factory spec then start again?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eliteonly said:


> Yes indeed. I started at a measured 28 7/8in draw. I've increased to around it around a 1/4 already(I'll check it again, shooting a PSE Dominator Max, 60lb, 30in Beman 3Deadringer arrows, Trophy Taker blade rest). Should I got to 29.5 on my mod and put it back to factory spec then start again?


With any particular draw length module...

you ALWAYS have the option to TWEAK the cables,
to CHANGE the ATA and BRACE height...

OPTION 1...go 1/4-inch OUT OF SPEC for draw length....in the LONGER draw length direction
...the side effects are MORE speed for the arrow...and a lower holding weight.

OPTION 2...go 1/4-inch OUT OF SPEC for draw length....in the SHORTER draw length direction
the side effects are LESS speed for the arrow...and a HIGHER holding weight, and a SMOOOOOTHER draw cycle.

Your choice.

I teach folks all over the world,
my ONLINE students,
how to take a bow OUT OF SPEC...on purpose,
to shoot BETTER, TIGHTER groups,
than ever before.

www.nutsandboltsarchery.com


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SIGHT AXIS in TEN STEPS....no explanation...just for you, Pysiek*



Pysiek said:


> Alan I wasn't able to take the picture with business cards. They bent all the time and it is not accurate. But I did find my problem. It wasn't the cam lean but torque. My Saunders Hyper Glide put some torque in the bow. I will start new thread with photos of my cam lean with Saunders Hyper Glide and original Hoyt Slider.


TEN steps.

HOW to CHECK a sight

No works,
just pictures.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SIGHT AXIS in TEN STEPS...with a LITTLE bit of words..just for YOU, Pysiek*

Hang a string from the ceiling,
and put a washer on the end of the string.



The REALLY REALLY expensive sights, have a way to adjust for the vertical slide, when the vertical slide is OUT OF PLUMB.



THIS is not PLUMB.



THIS is not PLUMB either.

I used a bow vise to EXAGGERATE how BADLY the sight arm is TWISTED.
I used a bow vise to EXAGGERATE how BADLY the sight mount is machined.

Whatever reason the VERTICAL SLIDE is NOT PLUMB,
the really REALLY REALLY expensive sights
have a way to adjust the VERTICAL SLIDE to DEAD PLUMB.



VERTICAL SLIDE is now DEAD PLUMB.

Not gonna tell you the FANCY engineering name for the vertical slide = DEAD PLUMB.

*Just goona say,
you WANT the vertical slide DEAD PLUMB...on your bow, when you are at full draw,
however you hold your bow.

The vertical slide of your SIGHT, has NO idea what I am doing with my bow hand wrist.

As long as the VERTICAL SLIDE is DEAD PLUMB, when the bow is at full draw,
the VERTICAL SLIDE does not care what the riser is doing.*


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SIGHT AXIS in TEN STEPS...with a LITTLE bit of words..just for YOU, Pysiek*



I just installed the scope...PLASTIC TUBE with a lens inside.

Notice anything NOT quite correct?



HOW about now? Still NOT quite correct?



I am SPINNING the threaded rod,
so the PLASTIC TUBE, the FRONT RING
is PLUMB.

AAAAAH,
the PLASTIC TUBE,
the FRONT RING, the EDGE of the PLASTIC TUBE is now PLUMB.

(temporarily ignore the bubble level...that comes NEXT).

*So,
the THREADED ROD,
I rotated the THREADED ROD ONE way

I rotated the THREADED ROD the other way

and the PLASTIC RING, the FACE of the PLASTIC TUBE
is now PLUMB.*

What happens when you PLUMB up the FACE of the PLASTIC TUBE?

The round sticker will look ROUND.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SIGHT AXIS in TEN STEPS...with a LITTLE bit of words..just for YOU, Pysiek*




AAAAHHHHH

I now tweaked the scope,
the plastic TUBE
to get the sight bubble to read DEAD CENTER.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*SIGHT AXIS in TEN STEPS...with a LITTLE bit of words..just for YOU, Pysiek*

Almost there.

NOT done yet.

Again,
on the MORE expensive SIGHTS...

you will have a DOOR hinge adjustment.



NOPE,
not quite right.




AAAHHHH.
MUCH better.

DONE.

TEN STEPs.

NOT too many words.


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

Alan thanks for the write up but I never have any problems with the sight adjustments :tongue:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pysiek said:


> Alan thanks for the write up but I never have any problems with the sight adjustments :tongue:


Not just for you, but I figured you would appreciate the intent.:darkbeer:


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> Not just for you, but I figured you would appreciate the intent.:darkbeer:


Of course I appreciate it. Any time you spent helping others with the bow tune up (and not only) is greatly appreciated :77:


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## mnfuel (Jun 28, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> AS requested,
> FOURTEEN steps. NO explanation.
> 
> 1slap on arrow rest
> ...


You do not have the vertical cam sync in the 14 step. In your order through out this it would be 9.5.

But
But
But


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## mnfuel (Jun 28, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> *AFTER you finish adjusting CAM sync..
> 
> AFTER you can have your fletched arrow and your bareshaft arrow
> BOTH hit at the SAME exact height, at 18 meters...*
> ...


You said bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards for cam sync.

How can your bareshaft hit x ring for cam sync adjustment when it hitting 8 inches left because of draw length problem?

Looks like need to adjust draw length before you can adjust cam sync?


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## soonerboy (Sep 6, 2004)

tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You said bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards for cam sync.
> 
> How can your bareshaft hit x ring for cam sync adjustment when it hitting 8 inches left because of draw length problem?
> 
> Looks like need to adjust draw length before you can adjust cam sync?


TWO separate issues.

Draw length affects the left - right impact for the baresahft.
Cam sync affects the up-down impact for the bareshaft.

You can do draw length adjusting first, if you like,
to the 1/4-inch.





FIRED bareshaft, AIMING at the x-ring, 20 yards away.

LEngthened the bow draw length 1/4-inch, cuz I am right handed.

END result of DRAW length change, only 1/4-inch.



Moved sight elevation and windage.



So,
this was with a bow that was already TUNED for cam sync.

THIS is why the group is SOOO FLAT.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

mnfuel said:


> You said bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards for cam sync.
> 
> How can your bareshaft hit x ring for cam sync adjustment when it hitting 8 inches left because of draw length problem?
> 
> Looks like need to adjust draw length before you can adjust cam sync?


The cam sync can also be tested FIRST.

The cam sync test is STRICTLY for VERTICAL point of impact testing.

HOW do you aim a baresahft,
when the draw length is 1/4-inch TOO LONG or SHORT?

You use your sight.



THIS creep tuning test,
was with my OK Archery DST 40....not with the Maitland Zeus.

So,
my OK Archery DST 40
can produce groups like this at 20 yards.



So,
THIS bareshaft hitting the x-ring
was with THIS bow.



LEARN the concepts
and don't spend too much time OVER-THINKING my pictures
to explain the concept of LEVEL nock travel.

Do the cam sync first.
Do the tuning the draw length to 1/4-inch second.

OR

Do the tuning the draw length to 1/4-inch FIRST.
Do the cam sync SECOND.

Your choice.

Tuning the draw length to the 1/4-inch FIRST or SECOND,
CAN make your groups MUCH MUCH TIGHTER...

bEFORE you do the yoke tuning
BEFORE you do any group tuning
BEFORE you do the stabilize tuning.

DO the 1/4-inch draw length tuning EARLY in your tuning process

Whether you do cam sync FIRST or second,
is not really important.

Whether you do the 1/4-inch draw length tuning FIRST or second,
again, is not really important.


You DO KNOW
that hitting the x-ring is NOT IMPORTANT for cam sync work.

I just so happened to fire the BARESHAFT first,
and I aimed at the x-ring
and I hit the x-ring.

YOU DO KNOW
that for cam sync work..

I really do not CARE where you hit the target, LEFT or right

I only want you to HIT THE TOP EDGE OF THE MASKING TAPE.
This is a VERTICAL CONTROL TEST.

IF you HIT the TOP EDGE of the masking tape with the BARESHAFT
IF you also HIT the TOP EDGE of the masking tape with the FLETCHED arrow....


Then,
you pass the VERTICAL control test.



Hitting the x-ring with a bareshaft
makes for a NICE picture,
but really is NOT necessary for VERTICAL CONTROL TEST (cam sync adjustment).

The FLETCHED missed WAY LEFT,
not cuz of draw length.

I aimed WAY LEFT, to not kill my arrow.
cuz this bow

is THAT accurate.


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## juststartin08 (Jun 20, 2008)

Tag


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## achaffin (Nov 18, 2013)

Ok maybe this is a stupid question I hope I didn't miss it. I'm rather new to tuning and I have a rytera nemesis and from what I gather from reading this is I have a binary cam system. No yoke. So if you have cam lean on this bow can you adjust it?


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## dmtindell (Nov 19, 2010)

Am I right to say you can only adjust cam lean with shims if you don't have split yoke....


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2007)

tag


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## Viper04 (Feb 8, 2006)

tagged


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## 4falls (Aug 18, 2013)

good thread


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## Top Gauge (Sep 6, 2009)

Tagged as well, for next summer


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## jam21 (Jan 8, 2010)

Tagged


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## millhouse (Feb 11, 2010)

Tag


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## catchin' (Dec 9, 2014)

This is great. Especially since I'm just starting out.

What is tagged?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

catchin' said:


> This is great. Especially since I'm just starting out.
> 
> What is tagged?


When you post ANYTHING on a thread,
you can search and find the threads you posted something, anything.

One way to find something later.


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## huntforfood703 (Jan 14, 2014)

tag


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## johnny liggett (Aug 13, 2005)

tag


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## A-TOM (Jul 8, 2014)

Tag


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## conquest428 (Nov 26, 2014)

Tagged


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## HOGG-IT (May 5, 2009)

Tagged for later


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Tag


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## SynapsesFire (Mar 25, 2008)

Tag


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## hjort jagare (Nov 19, 2008)

tag


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## Natestl (Jul 25, 2012)

tag


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

Good stuff again Alan. Do have one question. Do the arrows Have to be spined correctly for the bow or is it possible to get these results with over spined fat indoor target arrows (2712's, tripplexxx's, black eagle magnums, etc)? Tried bare shaft tuning at 20yds...bare shaft hit 8 inches right of fletched but at same heigth. Just shortened draw length 1/4 by untwisting buzz and control cables. Have not tested for results yet. Could this be a spine issue? These are with fat shafts.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

chevman said:


> Good stuff again Alan. Do have one question. Do the arrows Have to be spined correctly for the bow or is it possible to get these results with over spined fat indoor target arrows (2712's, tripplexxx's, black eagle magnums, etc)? Tried bare shaft tuning at 20yds...bare shaft hit 8 inches right of fletched but at same heigth. Just shortened draw length 1/4 by untwisting buzz and control cables. Have not tested for results yet. Could this be a spine issue? These are with fat shafts.


It depends.

As the arrow stiffness gets STIFFER and STIFFER...

I just luv GoldTip X-Cutters with only say 90 grains up front or 100 grains up front
and cuz I'm lazy...I bought WAYYY too many Flex Fletch 187s ....super TINY vanes...1.87-inches LONG, and only 0.3-inches tall

I do just fine at 20 yards and all the way up to 80 yards (NFAA field archery)
with the X-Cutters
which are RIDICULOUSLY STIFF for a 29-inch draw length bow
and only 50 lbs of draw weight.

Soooo,
HOW can this BE?

What happens
as you get SUPER STIFF on the arrow

this is the difference between driving your car at 25 mph
versus
running around a race track at 225 mph.

A front end alignment that is GOOD ENOUGH for driving your car at 25 mph
is NO WHERE neAR good enough for driving around Laguna Seca at 225 mph.

So,
the 2712s
the Triple XXXs
the BE Magnums

or in my case
GoldTip X-Cutters cut so the end of the tube is only 1/2-inch PAST the front of my BLADE rest

SHORT arrow
makes a SUPER STIFF arrow even STIFFER
cuz I don't break down the spine
cuz I leave the 90 grain points in front...if I'm lazy, cuz that's the size they come in...

then,
you REALLY need to adjust the bow draw length down to the 1/4-inch IN BETWEEN module sizes...to find your SWEET SPOT

you REALLY need to dial in the arrow rest sideways position to the 0.002-inches
you REALLY need to dial in the arrow rest VERTICAL position to the 0.002 inches...

like 60435....learned.

He was shooting 2712s.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

SUPER stiff arrows are EXTREMELY picky about form
and arrow rest tuning.



nuts&bolts said:


> *60435
> 
> Supporting Manufacturer/Retailer
> Join Date
> ...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

THIS is what he needs
to dial in the THINNEST blade possible
and
to get the arrow to SAG, the BEND the blade,
with the bow AT REST.




Sooo,
60435 had to SHORTEN his draw length slightly

Soooo,
60435 had to machine the 0.008 BLADE, to further WEAKEN his 0.008-blade

Sooo,
I had 60435 LEARN how to FINE tune his micro adjust arrow rest (screw feed)
and move the BLADE DOWN 0.002-inches at a time..then 0.001-inches at a time
until
WE WENT TOO FAR.

Then,
I had 60435 move the BLADE arrow rest UP 0.001-inches at a time.

HOW do we know we went too far?

BARESHAFT was NOSE DIVING a LOT.

THen,
the BARESHAFT was NOSE DIVING LESS
as we MOVED the BLADE REST In the DOWN DIRECTION
0.001-inches PER adjustment..1/4 turn on the SCREW MICRO adjust knob.

The BARESHAFT was NOSE DIVING LESS and LESS until 60435 got to about say 2-inches NOSE DIVE....when he was at 10-INCHES of NOSE DIVE.

Then,
I had him move the arrow rest another 0.001-inches DOWN
and the BARESHAFT NOSE DIVED to 4-inches.

WE went PAST the SWEET SPOT.

60435 is a CONSISTENT enough EXPERT LEVEL shooter
where he can SEE a difference in the AMOUNT OF NOSE DIVE for the BARESHAFT
when we TWEAK the BLADE arrow rest only

0.001-inches when 60435 shoots 20 YARDs.

So,
the BEST we could do
on TUNING SHOCK ABSORBER POWER...
yes,

a BLADE rest is a LEAF spring suspension system....that's all it is

When we MOVE the BLADE rest DOWN 0.001-inches
we are mAKING the SHOCK ABSORBER ride MORE cushy

when we MOVE the BLADE REST UP 0.001-inches
we are mAKING the SHOCK ABSORBER ride MORE STIFF.

So,
the FIRST time 60435 tried my KITCHEN TABLE method,
he was MASSIVELY BLOWING PAST THE SWEET SPOT

for VERTICAL BLADE rest height...

by SEVERAL THOUSANDTHS of an inCH

he had NO IDEA that the SWEET SPOT for BLADE REST HEIGHT

STARTS with the ARROW SAGGING NOTICEABLY

and
that TUNING the amount of SAG is a WINDOW of SEVERAL THOUSANDS of an INCH, using a 0.008-inch THICK BLADE...

*60435 had NO IDEA
that the TUNING WINDOW for a BLADE arrow rest with the 0.010-inch THICK BLADE
can be several TEN THOUSANDTHS of an inch...(TOO STIFF of a blade results in a MUCH MORE NARROW TUNING WINDOW).*

SURE,
60435 was shooting 550+ field scores with the TOO stiff blade...

but
60435 wanted to see if HE CAN GET TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

I showed him how,
for basicly $2 an HOUR....(I Charge $25 for a WEEK of my time).

Sheesh.

I need to charge MORE.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

60435

his NEW results.

21 shots at 20 yards.



If you are not shooting at THIS level...

you will NOT see any benefit
grinding a 0.008-inch thick blade WEAKER

you will NOT see any benefit
to tuning BLADE rest to 0.001-inches


FOR 60435 to get THESE level of shooting,
he had to also WEAKEN his top limb bolt
to FINE tune the TOP half, and LOWER half balance of his bow

he went two rounds of cam sync tweaking with me

AND we had to find the sweet spot for blade angle
AND we had to find the SWEET spot for BLADE rest height, to the 0.001-inch
AND we re-set his d-loop to 90 degrees to the bowstring...

basically,
my FULL boat custom online coaching program...

for $25 a week,
which for 60435
turned out to be $2 an hour...12-hours of my time and his time.

NOW,
he nails his bareshaft DEAD LEVEL
with his FLETCHED arrows.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

chevman said:


> Good stuff again Alan. Do have one question. Do the arrows Have to be spined correctly for the bow or is it possible to get these results with over spined fat indoor target arrows (2712's, tripplexxx's, black eagle magnums, etc)? Tried bare shaft tuning at 20yds...bare shaft hit 8 inches right of fletched but at same heigth. Just shortened draw length 1/4 by untwisting buzz and control cables. Have not tested for results yet. Could this be a spine issue? These are with fat shafts.


People have an EASIER time shooting "proper spine" arrows.

People have a MUCH HARDER time shooting SUPER stiff arrows.

So,
you can only TUNE and SHOOT to your skill level.

60435 had to switch from the 0.010 blade to the 0.008 blade.
60435 had to machine his blade, to make the 0.008 blade even WEAKER, for his 2712s!!!!!!!

He had to tune his arrow rest down the 0.001 (Spot Hogg micro adjust blade rest).
IT makes a difference...especially shooting 2712s or any other SUPER stiff arrow.

It's only a SPINE issue
if the SUPER STIFF arrows are TOO PICKY for your current shooting skill level.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> It depends.
> 
> As the arrow stiffness gets STIFFER and STIFFER...
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying. Need to work on a few things apparently. Thank you Alan. Patiently waiting for your dvd.


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## iabadshot (May 29, 2008)

Tagged


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## Digital Dave (Nov 25, 2014)

Loads of great info :thumbs_up


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## KnottyPine (Nov 3, 2014)

Tagged


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## 3SixtyOutdoors (Sep 14, 2012)

agt


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## ND Swede (Feb 21, 2009)

tagged


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## davefaul (Jan 2, 2014)

Tagged


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

Hi Alan, 

Great info here. I have 2 questions for you:

1. In your example/sequence you fired a bare shaft and hit left. You lengthened your draw length 1/4 inch then shot a very tight group. My question is, where did a bare shaft impact after the 1/4 inch draw length adjustment? I can only assume it moved towards your fletched group.

2. I had one of my bows grouping bare shafts pretty good. After a lot of arrows I decided to shoot a bare shaft. It hit right. I tried a couple adjustments of the yoke to fix it. After a couple adjustments I realized it was more than likely fatigue causing the problem. I reversed the twist and put the bow down and called it quits. I haven't been able to shoot the bow since. After reading on this post I can only assume my bow arm was bending more causing my form to faulter as if my draw length is too long. Your thoughts on my diagnosis? 

I intend to take pics of my form at the beginning and end of a shooting session for reference next time I am at the range. I am also going to verify my draw length isn't too long using your method.


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

Tag order of tune.


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## primal-archery (Jun 25, 2011)

Great info


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

yanny said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> Great info here. I have 2 questions for you:
> 
> ...




Bow in SPEC,
using a 29-inch draw length module.

BARESHAFT nails the LEFT EDGE of the target face.

Sooo,
lengthened the bow draw length,
RIGHT handed bow
by ADDING twists to the BUSS CABLE (long center leg)
and by ADDING TWISTS to the control cable (top end loop)

which REDUCES the ATA of the bow
which GROWS the BRACE height of the bow
which also GROWS the draw length...of the BOW.

OUT of spec on PURPOSE.

*Draw length is NOW roughly 29-1/16th inches. SEE RED ARROW.
Bareshaft #2 hits 5 ring, at 10-o'clock.
Bareshaft #3 hits 4 ring, at 9-o'clock.*

Sooo, I add more twists to SHORTEN the long leg of the buss cable,
sooo, I add more twists to SHORTEN the top of the control cable.
*Draw length is NOW roughly 29-1/8th inches. SEE GREEN ARROW.
Bareshaft #4 and #5 hit the 8 and 9-ring...at 11-o'clock high.

Sooo, I add another twist to SHORTEN the long leg of the buss cable,
sooo, I add another half twist to shorten the TOP of the control cable.
Draw length is NOW roughly 29-1/4 inches. SEE ORANGE ARROW.
Bareshaft #6 is hitting in the 9-ring, at 8-o'clock.....right below the #1 FLETCHED arrow, when I fired the bow IN SPEC, at 29-inches of DL.

FORM must be DEAD CONSISTENT
for this test to work.

BEFORE result at 29-inches of Draw Length, BOW in SPEC.





BOW OUT of spec,
BUSS cable is shorter
Control Cable is shorter

draw length is roughly 1/4-inch LONGER than before,
but draw weight is now TOO HIGH,
so I remove 1 turn off BOTH LIMB BOLTS,
to drop draw weight back down to 58 lbs...

still,
draw length is going to be LONGER than spec, when I started.

RESULTS.







So,
the NEW OUT of spec DRAW LENGTH
is provided BETTER fletched arrow results.

The BARESHAFT testing
gives me a HINT about DRAW LENGTH.

NO,
this is NOT an arrow SPINE issue.

OLD draw weight
and NEW draw weight are BOTH roughly 58 lbs of DRAW WEIGHT.

NEW ATA is shorter.
NEW brace height is LONGER.

NEW draw length is LONGER than when I started.

Soooo,
bareshafts and DRAW LENGTH testing is ALL about alignment..

WHERE is your release elbow..

is your RELEASE elbow in LINE behind the arrow
if you are RIGHT handed and your BARESHAFTS miss to the RIGHT

your ELBOW is too far CLOCKWISE behind your head
so

DROP the draw length
1/8th inch LESS
DROP the draw length
1/4-inch LESS

by GROWING your ATA
by SHRINKING your brace height
and this will DROP your draw length OUT OF SPEC
in between DL module sizes.

Put a strip of masking tape
dead vertical on your cams
and
this will GUIDE YOU how much to LENGTHEN your cables
to GROW the ATA
to SHRINK the brace height

and when you have both cables UNTWISTED the CORRECT AMOUNT for each cable

then,
the masking tape will be DEAD VERTICAL
when you get it correct.

RESULTS based tuning.

KEEP tweaking your FORM,
KEEP tweaking your BOW...

until you get BETTER results.



From this

to THIS...



SIGHT windage
SIGHT elevation.

NOT a spine issue.

NEVER was.*


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## backstrap73 (Nov 7, 2012)

Tag


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## steve101610 (Nov 8, 2012)

Tagged


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## Hawkins305 (Dec 22, 2007)

Tagged for use later....Awesome stuff!!


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## hillemonster (Mar 19, 2005)

tagged


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## Madlaz (Jul 4, 2008)

tagged


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## bcowette (Jan 11, 2007)

Tag


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## johndoe (Dec 2, 2009)

tagged


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## Michigan Dave (Dec 28, 2005)

Tag. Good stuff. I am now tuning a new (for me) bow. Timely info. Waiting patiently for DVD.


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## tandin93 (Sep 27, 2014)

Tag


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## Spurlucky (Aug 7, 2011)

Tagged


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## donnyscott (Aug 8, 2014)

tagged


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## Don_Swazy (Jul 9, 2013)

Tag!
!
!


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## BowTechBuck (Jul 3, 2009)

You can all just subscribe to the thread and make it easy as well


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## Pablom (Nov 7, 2014)

*tuning bow*

tag


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## Revvv (Mar 23, 2014)

Subscribed


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## Shakyhand (Jul 1, 2012)

tagged


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

tagged


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## DavidBLingo (Nov 24, 2008)

for future reference


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## BowTechBuck (Jul 3, 2009)

Tagged


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## littleonion (Jan 16, 2006)

Step 10.5 - I have a single cam bow. Do I adjust my vertical bareshaft misses with one of the limb bolts or do you change the single cam starting point? I have had great success adjusting tail high/low bareshafts with slight turns off the limb bolts. Just not sure if this is the same as adjusting cam sync that you refer to in this thread.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

littleonion said:


> Step 10.5 - I have a single cam bow. Do I adjust my vertical bareshaft misses with one of the limb bolts or do you change the single cam starting point? I have had great success adjusting tail high/low bareshafts with slight turns off the limb bolts. Just not sure if this is the same as adjusting cam sync that you refer to in this thread.


Single Cam bow.

Single Cams are EXTREMELY picky about the cam rotation position.

You adjust the CAM starting rotation position,
with the BUSS CABLE length.

BOTTOM of buss cable.
ADD 1/2 twist
or
REMOVE 1/2 twist.

ADD 1 full twist, more than where you currently are, at the BOTTOM of the buss cable
or
REMOVE 1 full twist, LESS than where you currently are, at the BOTTOM of the buss cable.

So,
my Mathews Apex 7 has TWO dimples on the CAM,
the metal thingy on the BOTTOM axle

to provide a HINT about the BEST results starting cam rotation position.



I added GREEN nail polish to the dimples
so you can more EASILY SEE the dimples...the reference marks.

So,
the idea is to draw an imaginary line connecting the two DIMPLES
to form a LINE dead parallel to the bowstring,
with the bow at REST.

Soooo
all this means,
is that a SINGLE CAM is EXTREMELY PICKY about WHERE the starting rotation position of your cam is.

SO,
if your cam has NO HINTS about starting position,
NO biggie.

TAKE a strip of masking tape
and attach the tape to your cam parallel to the bowstring,
with the bow at rest.

Soooo,
so you can SEE what happens
when you REMOVE 1/2 twist off the bottom of the buss cable
when you REMOVE 1 full twist off the bottom of the buss cable

or
when you ADD 1/2 twist MORE to the bottom of the buss cable
when you ADD 1 full twist MORE to the bottom of the buss cable

you will SEE that the masking tape is NOW CROOKED
and

go and shoot your bow
and see if your arrow groups, your FLETCHED arrow groups get FLATTER.

You have a 50/50 chance to GUESS the correct direction
to TWEAK the bottom of your buss cable...on your SINGLE CAM BOW.


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## littleonion (Jan 16, 2006)

Will this move the fletched and bareshaft groups together/apart or just get your fetched group flatter?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

littleonion said:


> Will this move the fletched and bareshaft groups together/apart or just get your fetched group flatter?


Try it and see.

Fletched and bareshafts at 10 yards, is mostly BOW tuning.

Fletched and bareshafts at 20 yards...is now PART bow tuning and PART shooter skill/shooter consistency.

Fletched and bareshafts at 30 yards, is now VERY LITTLE bow tuning (assumes the bow is tuned PERFECTLY)
and is a LOT shooter skill / shooter consistency.

BARESHAFTS are a TUNING tool
and an indicator of the shooter skill/shooter consistency.

If you are not skilled enough to shoot bareshafts..

then,
tweaking the buss cable, HALF Twist more...half TWIST less....SHOULD make your FLETCHED groups flatter..

again,
COMPLETELY depending on shooter skill.

Soo,
if you shoot 10-inch tall groups at 20 yards...

no
you will not notice the effects of half a twist at the bottom of the buss cable, on your single cam.

If you shoot 1-inch tall groups at 20 yards...

yes,
you will NOTICE the effects of HALF a twist at the bottom of your buss cable, on your single cam
in your 20 yard FLETCHED arrow groups
in your 40 YARD fletched arrow groups
in your 60 YARD fletched arrow groups.

You know this, already...
RIGHT?


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## Hardscrabble (Dec 29, 2011)

Subscribed


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## littleonion (Jan 16, 2006)

Most of my tuning is done at our outdoor range. I will try it and see what effect it has....but not until it warms up! Thanks for the info.


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## ctarcher (Jun 7, 2002)

Going back to setting the bows draw length by adding/subtracting twists to the bow string. Would this be the same as getting the bow draw length close (with good form and posture) and then change the D-loop length to fine tune the arrow groups? I'm a bit confused. If you start by changing the draw length of the bow to get the best groups, doesn't this change if you change the length of the loop?


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## BMeehan19 (Dec 10, 2008)

Tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ctarcher said:


> Going back to setting the bows draw length by adding/subtracting twists to the bow string. Would this be the same as getting the bow draw length close (with good form and posture) and then change the D-loop length to fine tune the arrow groups? I'm a bit confused. If you start by changing the draw length of the bow to get the best groups, doesn't this change if you change the length of the loop?


Bow draw length sets peep distance to your eyeball.
Bow draw length moves the nock farther forwards on your head...as you go shorter.

DO not CHANGE BOW ARM ELBOW BEND...for shorter and shorter DRAW length.
ENTIRE PURPOSE of draw length change is to MOVE NOCK POSITION on your head.

ENTIRE PURPOSE OF SHORTER draw length is to GET STRING OFF YOUR NOSE.

ENTIRE PURPOSE of d-loop tuning
is to change release forearm angle
AFTER NOCK position on your head is SET with bow draw length adjustment.


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

I have used the string touching the tip of my nose for a reference point for years. Is this an indication my draw length might still be a little long? I guess it might depend on axle to axle and also the length of ones nose?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

yanny said:


> I have used the string touching the tip of my nose for a reference point for years. Is this an indication my draw length might still be a little long? I guess it might depend on axle to axle and also the length of ones nose?


It depends.

String touching the nose,
well...kinda depends on how long your nose is..
and
well...kinda depends on the ATA of the bow

so,
each case is a separate case,
but...

you can see in the PHOTOS of bowboysp,
what HE had to do,
to get GREAT results.


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

Sorry Alan, were those photos posted on this thread or a different one? I am following 4 of the threads you are posting on...


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## Eliteonly (Oct 8, 2011)

Hey N&B, I had an idea that Im sure you've tried but could add along to this thread. I got one of the B Stinger LAST laser tools in the other day at my shop. We have been tinkering a bit with it and I've formulated a couple ideas. What about tuning draw length for the best float using both your methods and the laser? Then using it to tune the stabilizers to get the smallest float pattern. In my mind, it would appear if you could tighten up the float, you would tighten up the shot and shoot better.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eliteonly said:


> Hey N&B, I had an idea that Im sure you've tried but could add along to this thread. I got one of the B Stinger LAST laser tools in the other day at my shop. We have been tinkering a bit with it and I've formulated a couple ideas. What about tuning draw length for the best float using both your methods and the laser? Then using it to tune the stabilizers to get the smallest float pattern. In my mind, it would appear if you could tighten up the float, you would tighten up the shot and shoot better.


I teach my students to ABSOLUTELY IGNORE float,
I teach my students to aBSOLUTELY IGNORE "hold"
I teach my students to ABSOLUTELY IGNORE "FEEL".

When the RESULTS are AMAZING...

everything else is obviously working.

I teach my students to TURN their brain OFF...mental discipline training.

IF you SEE your float,
then your BRAIN is THINKING about your float
and your shot is RUINED. PERIOD.

If you are THINKING about your "HOLD"
then your BRAIN is not turned off
and your shot is RUINED.

I teach my students to use my STABILIZER setup in THREE moves, to get GREAT RESULTS.

I am teaching LadyBowhunter12 to tune the bow draw length down to the HALF TWIST, and to evaluate based on the RESULTS...not "HOLD"..not "FEEL"..not "FLOAT"..just the SIZE of the hole pattern in the target.

We end up in the sAME place,
but MY students do not THINK about hold, feel, or FLOAT.

Different coaching philosophy,
cuz I also work on the MENTAL side of my students.

IF my students can do THIS...



THAT was done over MULTIPLE days, ON PURPOSE
with ONE arrow at his current training distance.

I felt my student was READY for the ULTIMATE stress test.

My instructions.

SHOOT your ONE arrow stress test
and do NOT STOP, until you MISS the ONE hole performance.
GO over several days, to make this TOUGHER. SAME target. KEEP going.

MINIMUM goal is 100 shots.

HE hit 140 CONSECUTIVE shots in a ROW in the SAME hole
and then he stopped...

cuz he realized the TRUE purpose of the TEST.

My goal was NOT to find his breaking point.

MY goal, and my student was SMART enough to figure this out...

MY goal was to show my student HOW FAR HE HAD COME, since we started training.

I wanted to BOOST his confidence,
to show him how far he had come through my GRUELING mental focus training.

You see,
when my students MASTER my mental techniques...
THEY do NOT SEE their HOLD
THEY do NOT see their FLOAT
THEY just SHOOT...and SHOOT...and SHOOT.

So,
for my student,
IS his hold ROCK SOLID???? absolutely.

So,
for my student,
IS their FLOAT, ROCK SOLID???? absolutely..but, they don't see it, they do not pay attention to their FLOAT...they don't play with LASERS...they just TRAIN, like I taught them.

TURN your mind OFF
and let your muscle memory TAKE over.

When you let the BRAIN get out of the way,
the BODY takes over
and the BODY does what the BODY has been TRAINED to DO....to SHOOT the arrow in the SAME HOLE, again and again and again.

MINDLESS ROBOT training, is my style.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eliteonly said:


> Hey N&B, I had an idea that Im sure you've tried but could add along to this thread. I got one of the B Stinger LAST laser tools in the other day at my shop. We have been tinkering a bit with it and I've formulated a couple ideas. What about tuning draw length for the best float using both your methods and the laser? Then using it to tune the stabilizers to get the smallest float pattern. In my mind, it would appear if you could tighten up the float, you would tighten up the shot and shoot better.


I think using a laser
is the EXACT opposite of my coaching style...
cuz,
the laser is going to MESS with your mind,
and draw your FOCUS to the LASER DANCE pattern...

rather than TRAIN your BRAIN to turn off
and get out of the way of shooting.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

yanny said:


> Sorry Alan, were those photos posted on this thread or a different one? I am following 4 of the threads you are posting on...


String touching the nose.



VERY VERY common belief on the INTERNET.

bowboysp did what he HEARD...he was supposed to do.

SUPPOSED to touch string on the nose.
SUPPOSED to have a DECENT or MORE than DECENT bend in the bow arm.
SUPPOSED to use YOUR ANCHOR...and ignore everything else.

ONLY ONE PROBLEM.

bowboysp was doing everything he had heard he was SUPPOSED to do, and he was holding 12-INCHES LOW.
bowboysp was convinced he had TARGET PANIC...cuz EVERYONE KNOWS on the internet, that HOLDING LOW = TARGET PANIC.

BUT,
bowboysp was also worried his draw length was too LONG or TOO short.

Soooo,
bowboysp posts a HOW's MY FORM thread.

Long story short..

I sent him ONE pm message.
I said, TRY TEMPORARY amnesia.

LET's do an experiment.



ZERO CHANGE in the bow draw length.
SAME EXACT BOW that USED TO hold 12-INCHES LOW.

See anything DIFFERENT?

I told him, bowboysp, to spend an HOUR shooting ONE arrow at 2 yards.

THEN,
he went for a test drive at 20 yards,
this EXACT SAME BOW...that was holding 12-INCHES LOW.

BUT,
this time,
bowboysp was using my SUPER WEIRD FEELING, Experimental FORM.

STRING off the nose.
NOCK WAY WAY WAY Forwards from "HIS NORMAL".
Bow arm bend near ZERO.
Elbow much HIGHER,
cuz the nock is now MUCH more FORWARDS on his head.

Release forearm angle is MUCH STEEPER.

Standing up STRAIGHT, instead of leaning backwards.

Soooo
what happened at 20 yards?

THIS happened.





Sooo
he tested at 30 yards.



bowboysp now holds ROCK SOLID at 40 yards.


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## zze86 (Aug 31, 2011)

tagged


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## dwilli05 (Dec 21, 2014)

Tag


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## t_bone1889 (Nov 6, 2014)

tagged for the week-end


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks Alan,

I have seen those photos before. I didn't know his username. I am going to have to take some photos of myself and examine them. I don't think my nock is past my eye but a photo will tell the true story.


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## Eliteonly (Oct 8, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> I teach my students to ABSOLUTELY IGNORE float,
> I teach my students to aBSOLUTELY IGNORE "hold"
> I teach my students to ABSOLUTELY IGNORE "FEEL".
> 
> ...


I do undersand your philosophy and have gained much from every post you make. I was more thinking that by using the laser and video only during tuning or training then reviewing, one could make changed based on those results. I for one have adopted the not see anything but exactly what I shoot at when I shoot. No float, no pin, nothing but I feel as though I could tune the other aspects of my shooting by using the laser. That said, thanks for responding. I'm sure I'll have something else cooked up soon!


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## bowtechfanatic1 (Jan 27, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> What happens AFTER group tuning at long range,
> what happens AFTER doing stabilizer tuning?
> 
> THIS happens.


So can you run us through yoke and group tuning?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eliteonly said:


> I do undersand your philosophy and have gained much from every post you make. I was more thinking that by using the laser and video only during tuning or training then reviewing, one could make changed based on those results. I for one have adopted the not see anything but exactly what I shoot at when I shoot. No float, no pin, nothing but I feel as though I could tune the other aspects of my shooting by using the laser. That said, thanks for responding. I'm sure I'll have something else cooked up soon!


You CAN use a laser,
but...

I think it puts your focus in the wrong place.
Definitely tune the bow to be as forgiving as possible....where for my students, we only look at the HOLE pattern.

Definitely tune the shooter (form, etc)...so you get the absolute best possible result (one arrow hole accuracy...at LONGER and LONGER and LONGER distances).
Definitely tune the shooter for MENTAL focus, concentration, for ROCK SOLID, unshakeable focus....so the consistency goes THROUGH the roof.

So,
tuning for a "BULLET HOLE" through paper, where folks OBSESS about a bullet hole....and do they EVER focus on the END result?

So,
tuning for a TIGHTER and TIGHTER laser pattern....then, you are going to try and CONTROL the shot, and COMMAND shoot the shot...this is ONE style, but I don't teach this style.

I much prefer a relaxed, 
consistent shot sequence, where through LOTS of training, 
the body takes over, (NOT your mind) and you shoot the SAME, perfect shot..which has been BURNED into memory.

So,
laser training is interesting, but ultimately counter-productive,
when it comes to my system for MENTAL focus training.

A laser is also used for high end rifle training..a biofeedback system.

*Take a look at the SCATT system. MOre advanced than most laser training systems.
http://www.scatt.com/*

*If I had unlimited budgets,
I would have a video cage,
multi-cam setup

run a SCATT system,
and tie it into a biofeedback system, using EMG monitoring..so the shooter and the coach could monitor LIVE, real time,
what muscles are engaged and what muscles are properly relaxed, during the correct phases of the SHOT sequence.

I'm pretty sure Olympic class biathlon teams are doing something similar.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> So can you run us through yoke and group tuning?


I have a system.

FIX the BIG things FIRST.
At short range, like 20 yards.

You know...the BASICS.

Then,
after you have worked out the KINKS in the BASICS, like form, posture, draw length, release forearm angle, release armpit angle,
bow side upper arm angle, bow side armpit angle, backbone angle, weight distribution for left and right leg/hip joints

and for the more advanced shooters, fore-aft FOOT weight distribution...maybe a 60/40 split for BALL of foot versus HEEL of foot weight distribution (SHOE heel height helps)

once we get the BASICS worked out at 20 yards....

yes,
this also includes WHERE is your weather vane POINTING
elbow to wrist, RELEASE arm side, when at full draw


AFTER we work out the creep tuning
if needed, I will walk the student through custom grip modifications...to get a better GRIP angle...to help FLATTEN the TEST SHOT pattern

we start with the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position, so the arrow is pointed DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD...

NOT crooked right
NOT crooked left

AFTER I teach the shooter to FORGET YOUR ANCHOR...and we try all kinds of different NOCK positions on your HEAD...(see How's my form by bowbowsp)...

AFTER we get the groups as TIGHT as possible at ONLY 20 yards
you know
by working the BASICS


Then,
we can do the LITTLE things
the FINE TUNING things
at LONGER range...like 60 yards...or LONGER.

GROUP tuning your arrow rest
just means moving the arrow rest SIDEWAYS in SUPER DUPER TINY amounts
to make your arrow groups MUCH more skinny at long range...say 60 yards. I'm talking 0.002-inches per ADJUSTMENT...LESS than the thickness of a sheet of paper.



GROUP tuning your arrow rest
just means moving the arrow rest UP-DOWN in SUPER DUPER TINY amounts
to make your arrow groups MUCH more FLAT at long range...say 60 yards. I'm talking 0.002-inches per ADJUSTMENT...LESS than the thickness of a sheet of paper.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> So can you run us through yoke and group tuning?


Sooo,
if you adjust things IN ORDER....

you know,
fix BASIC, LARGE movement adjustments (mostly the shooter)
fix BASIC, LARGE effect bow adjustments...at ONLY 20 yards

then,
fix MEDIUM size things (shooter and bow)

then
fix SMALL size things (shooter and bow)
at LONGER range tuning distances...

you will get a BETTER result

than if you have NO SYSTEM.

ALL of this is explained in my DVD...

I explain my system,
and I walk you through ALL The steps IN ORDER.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

yanny said:


> Thanks Alan,
> 
> I have seen those photos before. I didn't know his username. I am going to have to take some photos of myself and examine them. I don't think my nock is past my eye but a photo will tell the true story.


The moral of the story
is to TEST your assumptions,
and then,
try different things.

For bowboysp,
I massively adjusted his SHOOTING form
with ZERO change to the bow...

and his "TARGET PANIC" went away with ONE pm message.

Not bad, eh?


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## bowtechfanatic1 (Jan 27, 2011)

my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


The HEIGHT of the arrow rest...

just think of the arrow rest height, as a SKI JUMP.

Soooo,
the HEIGHT of the arrow
and the d-loop HEIGHT are two completely SEPARATE THINGS.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


So FIRST
we have to understand WHAT happens,
when we go HIGHER and HIGHER and HIGHER for the d-loop

and
what happens when we go LOWER and LOWER and LOWER for the d-loop.

Doesn't matter if we are talking a SINGLE cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a TWIN cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a DUAL cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a HYBRID cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a BINARY, no yoke cable cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a OverDrive Binary (tm) Dual cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a AVS cam
Doesn't matter if we are talking a SHOOT THRU cam

ANY and ALL cam systems,
when you move the D-LOOP higher and higher and higher

you pull HARDER on the TOP AXLE.

PERIOD.

BUT
BUT
BUT

Binary cams are ALWAYS in SYNC.
Yup, that's true.

If you move a d-loop HIGH enough on a Binary cam,
and you HOLD the bow at the GRIP area...NOT the bottom of the riser

and you put the d-loop say 1-inch below the TOP aXLE
and you DRAW the bow, the BINARY CAM bow to FULL DRAW, to YOUR anchor

you WILL snap the TOP limb.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


Sooo,
when you MOVE the d-loop HIGHER and HIGHER

say 1/8th inch above level
say 3/16ths inches above level (riser is vertical)
say 1/4-inch ABOVE level...

what you are doing is you are PULLING HARDER on the top limb
what you are doing is you are pulling LESS HARD on the bottom limb...

REGARDLESS if the cams are IN SYNC or NOT.

MOVE the d-loop a TINY TINY bit ABOVE level,
you have SHIFTED the balance of weight distribution between the two limbs...

MOVE the d-loop UP ANY amount,
the TOP LIMB works HARDER than the bottom limb...REGARDLESS of sync.

MOVE The d-loop higher and higher,
you also change the RISER angle, when at full draw.

This has an effect on the grip
and how the GRIP applies pressure to your bow hand.

See the HOw's My FORM thread for LadyBowhunter12,
and I go into GREAT detail, about the HOW's and WHYS and the EFFECTS of a SKY HIGH d-loop
and what that does to center of pressure, riser angle, grip angle, all at full draw...

and how TOO much sky high d-loop position,
really SCREWS up arrow launch angles.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


Sooo,
if we assume you aim at a shoulder height bullseye...say 20 yards
this pretty much guarantees that your arrow will be or SHOULD BE dead level (horizontal) when at full draw.

Sooo,
regardless of HOW MUCH SKY HIGH you go for the d-loop...

1/16th SKY HIGH for the d-loop, so the NOCK of the arrow is TAIL HIGH 1/16th inch
or
1/4-inch SKY HIGH for the d-loop, so the NOCK of the arrow is TAIL HIGH 1/4-inch

No matter HOW much SKY HIGH you set the NOCK of the arrow, so the NOCK of the arrow is TAIL HIGH, with the bow at rest, with the riser VERTICAL...

if you aim at a shoulder height bullseye,
so your front stabilizer is DEAD LEVEL, horizontal when at full draw...

the VANES of the arrow are going to FORCE the front end of the arrow, the POINT of the arrow to MATCH the angle of the front stabilizer

so,
LEVEL front stabilizer
then,
the LAUNCH ANGLE of the arrow will also be DEAD LEVEL ARROW FLIGHT..

cuz
that is what vanes DO

they provide STEERING correction.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


Sooo,
what happens if we set the D-LOOP for a NOCK that is 1/4-inch SKY HIGH, the nock is TAIL HIGH by 1/4-inch
when the bow riser is VERTICAL
which means
the front stabilizer is HORIZONTAL?

Well,
if the arrow rest is set TOO LOW,
for vertical STARTING position..

guess what,
when the FRONT end of the arrow rises up to LEVEL ARROW FLIGHT
you just might have ZERO CONTACT between the arrow and the arrow rest.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


Sooo,
WHERE you set your d-loop

d-LOOP for a LEVEL arrow nock (riser is vertical...front stab is horizontal)
or
d-LOOP for a SKY HIGH TAIL HIGH arrow nock...say 1/16th inch TAIL high..or 1/8th inch TAIL high....or 1/4-inch TAIL HIGH...whatever FLOATS YOUR BOAT

there is only ONE starting VERTICAL POSITION for your arrow rest that will work BEST.

THIS is why I explain in my DVD

set your d-loop position
and NEVER AGAIN TOUCH the d-loop

and ONLY tune EVERYTHING ELSE.

FIND the VERTICAL position of the arrow rest that works with your SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop position
FIND the cam sync tuning that works with your SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop position (whatever you selected at first)
FIND the FOC for your stab system, that works with your SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop position

etc
etc
etc.

So,
try as many d-loop positions as you LIKE,
as you can STAND

then,
tune EVERYTHING ELSE
around that experiment #2 SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop position.

Then,
pick a 3rd TEST sky HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop position,
and then,
tune EVERYTHING ELSE
around that Experiment #3 SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop position.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> my question for nuts and bolts is, how do you tune the vertical height of your arrow rest? few things ever seem to get mentioned about this topic. Most people seem to split the berger holes and forget it?


Split the berger hole is a popular starting point.

Now,
there are REASONS to set the d-loop BELOW berger hole height
and there are REASONS to set the arrow rest for a LEVEL arrow tube, bow at rest...

for PARTICULAR CAM systems.

hehehehehehehehehehe.


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## lakertown24 (Mar 3, 2013)

tagged


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## bna5017 (Oct 24, 2011)

tagged.


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## coop88 (Sep 13, 2013)

tag


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## pzdol (Jan 4, 2006)

Alan, love your explanation of the no-torque loop. Reminds me somewhat of the rope release I used to use. When I got my new Edge Elite, I went to using a standard string loop for my release and have had nothing but trouble with it. Come to realize that I'm too tight on the string - pinching the nock and/or the arrow falling off the lizard rest. I thought of going back to my old string release, but you gave me another solution to solving my dilemma. Thanks for you insights, and for being so very patient, and forthcoming with answering all our questions.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

pzdol said:


> Alan, love your explanation of the no-torque loop. Reminds me somewhat of the rope release I used to use. When I got my new Edge Elite, I went to using a standard string loop for my release and have had nothing but trouble with it. Come to realize that I'm too tight on the string - pinching the nock and/or the arrow falling off the lizard rest. I thought of going back to my old string release, but you gave me another solution to solving my dilemma. Thanks for you insights, and for being so very patient, and forthcoming with answering all our questions.


The no torque loop takes time to build.
MUST get the length correct. Took me 4 tries.

NEED to use an upper and lower tied nocking point,
and depending on the string angle, the SPACE between the two tied nocking points can get REALLY LARGE, cuz you want room for your nock
when at full draw.

When at full draw, with a short ATA bow, the string angle is REALLY SHARP
and therefore you need to check that your upper tied nocking point is HIGH enough, so you do NOT get nock pinch.

Consider the Beiter Asymmetrical Nocks, cuz only THIS nock
the string groove is ANGLED forwards...

if you want to try the NO torque loop.

IF you spend the time to get the tied nocking points FAR apart enough (use a draw board to check for no pinch, when at full draw)
IF you dial in the lizard tongue rest (vertical height adjustment by the 0.002-inch)
IF you build your no torque loop, as MANY times as you need to, to get the length correct (Took me 4 TRIES)

you can get amazing results.


The NO Torque loop is a pain to get dialed in correctly.


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## johnny (Jan 10, 2005)

tagged


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## padeadeye (May 13, 2010)

tagged


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## naptalene (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for the ton of info in this thread,

If you wouldn't mind answering this for me (I am on pre-order....just got a new to me bow and I'm busy playing with tuning)

On the Rest, I've set my blade and centre shot as per your starting recomendations (assuming I've understood correctly)

The arrow is at 90 to the bow string through the Berger hole - Using the "Table" method you just described. 
Centre shot done using an arrow on the riser parallel to the nocked and then eyeballing to confirm it.

1. How do I decide the forward/ backward postion of the blade? So the horizontal position of the rest between the riser and the string? I can't find much info on that anywhere.
2. What order do you recommend for the rest/d-loop tuning tuning? 

You said we must set the chosen d-loop and leave it alone from then on. 
So do we do that first? Then go back, re-align rest height for 90degree string to arrow? Then adjust the blade height for groups. then do centreshot?
I'm just trying to avoid running around chasing my tail 

Thanks in Advance


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## gsxr_kid (Dec 24, 2010)

save for later


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## watasha (Apr 11, 2013)

tag


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

great read on tune.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

naptalene said:


> Thanks for the ton of info in this thread,
> 
> If you wouldn't mind answering this for me (I am on pre-order....just got a new to me bow and I'm busy playing with tuning)
> 
> ...


The DVD shows you my system, IN ORDER...so yes, to avoid chasing your tail.

FORWARDS-BACKWARDS position for ANY rest is "torque tuning" the arrow rest.
MOVE the arrow rest AWAY From your face.
MOVE the arrow rest CLOSER to your face.

THIS only works for REALLY advanced shooters,
and
this ONLY works for LONG range groups, like say 60 yards or 80 yards.

By TORQUE tuning your arrow rest
by MOVING the arrow rest CLOSER to your FACE
by MOVING the arrow rest FARTHER away from your face...

you MIGHT shrink your LONG range groups, and make the LEFT-RIGHT misses SMALLER.

Soo,
you can ONLY tune to the SKILL level you are shooting.

Sooo,
there is really NO POINT in trying to TORQUE tune the arrow rest (fore-aft positioning) if your 20 yard groups are say 4-inches in diameter.

Now,
if your 20 yard groups look like THIS..



then, yes,
TORQUE tuning the arrow rest COULD help you at 60 and 80 yards.

If your 20 yd groups do NOT look like this....YET



then,
work on your 20 yard groups

the BASICS
before you start sweating the DeTAILS of Torque Tuning the fore-aft position of the arrow rest,
for 60 and 80 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

naptalene said:


> Thanks for the ton of info in this thread,
> 
> If you wouldn't mind answering this for me (I am on pre-order....just got a new to me bow and I'm busy playing with tuning)
> 
> ...


PICK a d-loop position that FLOATS your boat.
See LadyBowhunter12...."Critique my form" thread for a vERY VERY detailed analysis of WHAT happens with a SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH d-loop.

WHATEVER position you pick for YOUR d-loop,
either a level arrow
or a TAIL HIGH, SKY HIGH d-loop, say 1/16th high d-loop
or a TAIL HIGH, SKY HIGH d-loop, say 1/8th high d-loop
or a TAIL HIGH, SKY HIGH d-loop, say 3/16ths high d-loop

LEAVE the d-loop in THAT position,
and tune EVERYTHING ELSE...so you don't chase your own tail.

When you COMPLETE ALL The tuning steps in my DVD for WHATEVER d-loop position you tried...at first...and you have PHOTOS of your tuning results....all the way to the END of the DVD

then,
pick a NEW d-loop position,
and START OVER AGAIN, and do the ENTIRE process, IN ORDER

then,
pick another NEW d-loop position,
and START OVER AGAIN, and do the ENTIRE process, IN ORDER.

Try as MANY d-loop positions as you can STAND...testing.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

naptalene said:


> Thanks for the ton of info in this thread,
> 
> If you wouldn't mind answering this for me (I am on pre-order....just got a new to me bow and I'm busy playing with tuning)
> 
> ...


ORDER of TUNING.

I spell it out in the earlier part of this thread.


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## naptalene (Oct 8, 2012)

Perfect, thanks.
I only found one other thread that hinted at the rest position being for torque so it's nice to have confirmation.

It's also nice to know that I don't have to bother with it


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## lunk2002 (Jul 22, 2006)

Here are my results so far. Lefty CPXL. 
Set cams to straight at full draw. 
Set sight windage at 2 yards. Haven't touched it. 
Bore sighted rest. 
I have lengthened the draw as much as a full inch also lengthened the loop. 
Still bareshaft is 8" right at twenty. 
Thanks Alan.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

lunk2002 said:


> Here are my results so far. Lefty CPXL.
> Set cams to straight at full draw.
> Set sight windage at 2 yards. Haven't touched it.
> Bore sighted rest.
> ...


MUST get the LEFT elbow to SWING like the minute hand on a clock.

I had one student of mine
do the EXACT same thing as you,
we changed draw length
we changed d-loop length
and STILL...same results.

WHY?

Cuz my student did not understand that the RELEASE forearm is a COMPASS NEEDLE.

YOUR release forearm (since you are left handed)
is pointing NORTH EAST.

WE MUST get your elbow to SWING around your shoulder
so your forearm, your COMPASS NEEDLE
SWINGS more to the WEST,
so your FOREARM, if I duct tape a laser pointer
so your ELBOW to WRIST

SWINGS around like a compass needle
MORE to the due north
or even slightly NORTH WEST.

So,
if you do not have enough range of motion in your LEFT SHOULDER

then,
put an arrow on the ground,
and POINT the arrow north WEST
and adjust your stance
so the TIPS of your shoes TOUCH the arrow on the ground.

NOW,
make your ankles,
make your knees,
make your hips,
make your waist,
make both shoulders

ALL PARALLEL to the arrow on the ground, POINTING NORTHWEST

assuming the bullseye is DUE NORTH.

YOUR entire body is standing on a PRETEND LAZY SUSAN
and
I am going to SPIN your ENTIRE BODY several degrees NORTH WEST

then,
I am going to SPIN your entire body SEVERAL MORE degrees NORTH WEST

and we repeat this STANCE adjustment
to MOVE the bareshaft MORE towards the middle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

If you are UNABLE to SWING your release forearm,
cuz of range of motion issues..

then,
we ROTATE YOUR ENTIRE body,
and just aim at the middle like always,

with a NEW lower body position,
and the bareshafts...point of impact will move MORE and MORE left

and
your fletched groups will get TIGHTER.



My groups at 20 yards.

So,
we go STEP by STEP..

we try THIS
we try THAT

and we find what works to SKINNY up your groups, left to right.

The longer draw length works for MOST folks.
It does not work for you.

The longer d-loop also works for MOST folks.
It does not work for YOU.

So,
now we do the LAZY SUSAN trick
and realign your ENTIRE body,
from the FEET/SHOES
to the ankles
to the knees
to the hips
to the shoulders

and the bareshaft point of impact SHOULD move more to your LEFT

which means,
when we find the NEW stance for your FEET/shoes

the fletched groups should skinny up
more like mine...

eventually.


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## lunk2002 (Jul 22, 2006)

I think you're onto something. My shoulders are never aligned due north. 
Always NE. 
Bow arm is pointed NW. 
Will try that. 
Thanks again Alan.


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## Mike Pollan (Feb 6, 2015)

In for the info!


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## golfer1 (Dec 7, 2014)

Question for the very beginning of the process. I want to set the bow to shoot the string at 2 yards. You [Alan] show a photo how to set the rest so the arrow is parallel with the bow. I am confused on what part of the bow the arrow is parallel with. I see two arrows parallel with each other, but can not determine what part of the bow the unstrung arrow is being supported on.
Would you be kind enough to help me with that?


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

golfer1 said:


> Question for the very beginning of the process. I want to set the bow to shoot the string at 2 yards. You [Alan] show a photo how to set the rest so the arrow is parallel with the bow. I am confused on what part of the bow the arrow is parallel with. I see two arrows parallel with each other, but can not determine what part of the bow the unstrung arrow is being supported on.
> Would you be kind enough to help me with that?


It is taped to the inside of the riser.


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## golfer1 (Dec 7, 2014)

Thanks NoDeer: So you are saying it is squared of the side of the riser?


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## bugeaterNE (Apr 8, 2009)

Great balls of fire.....


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## Welpracing (Mar 5, 2015)

Tag


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

:bump:


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## Flywire (Apr 1, 2015)

subbed


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

tagging in


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## Barktan (Jul 19, 2014)

Glad to find this thread!


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## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

Great Thread and as it is with most of N&B posts, if you are a student of archery, this one can take days to really study... and as always extremely informative.

Value ?:
----------------------------
price of a new bow $1200
price of new arrows $200
price of sight and scope $500
value of N&B posts? = priceless

as always, thanks Alan...
thenson


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## Barktan (Jul 19, 2014)

Agreed


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## Dan Zawacki (Apr 17, 2010)

A great adjunct / companion to the pdf. Thanks!


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## meateat3r (Nov 27, 2014)

tagged


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

taggged


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## duckn (Jul 26, 2011)

tagged


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## RogerV53 (Apr 9, 2015)

Tag


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## Flivver90 (Feb 9, 2014)

Tag


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## jljjdye (Jan 11, 2007)

Tag


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## IBOWC05 (Feb 3, 2010)

Tag


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## bowhunterlp (Jan 12, 2013)

tagged


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## bowden67 (Jun 6, 2005)

After a couple days of trying to bareshaft tune my alpha witha blade reast,i tried a qad and it worked great. I went
back and put a torqeless loop on and it solved the problem. Thanks N&B.


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## GROSEN (Dec 29, 2014)

tagged


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## k&j8 (Mar 16, 2012)

tagged


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## itstoolate (Sep 30, 2014)

Seems like my thread did explode


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

Interesting.


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## DNAngry (Jul 17, 2015)

Tagged


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## mmeadow (Jun 29, 2016)

Tagged

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G730A using Tapatalk


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## SDMac (Sep 20, 2016)

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