# "07 Model Bowtech



## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

Only "official" news I have read from Bowtech is 2 new models for 07, while keeping the entine 06 line. They are due to announce Nov 1.

Rumor is 29" draw, 70 lb, 350fps on one of them.


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## Erik (Sep 17, 2005)

Is the Black Night Back!!!:tongue: :wink:


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

I hope so!

Greg


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## Takeum (Jul 22, 2005)

I talked to a rep just this past week,, He couldn't say what it was,, But He did say it wasn't going to be another Black Knight bow,,, He also stated that the Bow would indeed be a 350fps bow,, Also the single cam designed Bows,, { Diamonds} would have New Cams and a totally new look,,, The Bowtechs line for 07 is supposed to be something as radical as the new Binary cams when they came out in 05,, So watch out, there's another new bow in town,,,


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## stixshooter (Mar 18, 2006)

I was told no 350 this year, but I'm told alot of things......:darkbeer:


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## bullwacker (Dec 19, 2004)

*07 bowtech*

If you happen to get the PBR Magazine on the back cover of the new edition is a pic of a new bowtec. It is called the Guardian with Center Piviot design. I also look in the pic (hard to tell side view.) that It has split limbs and the riser section in the middle 1/3 is the same and the top and bottom thirds split and make a U shape contacting the limb in two differet spots. It was hard to tell again the pic was a side view.


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

we will all know soon :wink:


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## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

bullwacker said:


> If you happen to get the PBR Magazine on the back cover of the new edition is a pic of a new bowtec. It is called the Guardian with Center Piviot design. I also look in the pic (hard to tell side view.) that It has split limbs and the riser section in the middle 1/3 is the same and the top and bottom thirds split and make a U shape contacting the limb in two differet spots. It was hard to tell again the pic was a side view.


What!?!?
Hoyt came out today, why couldnt bowtech!!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

bullwacker said:


> If you happen to get the PBR Magazine on the back cover of the new edition is a pic of a new bowtec. It is called the Guardian with Center Piviot design. I also look in the pic (hard to tell side view.) that It has split limbs and the riser section in the middle 1/3 is the same and the top and bottom thirds split and make a U shape contacting the limb in two differet spots. It was hard to tell again the pic was a side view.


 Time for a little scanner action I'd say:tongue:


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Time for a little scanner action I'd say:tongue:


I second that!


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## Paul S. (Sep 14, 2003)

If there really is a picture out there on a magazine, then why all the "coming soon" stuff? Spill it allready!!!


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## disturbed13 (Aug 16, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Time for a little scanner action I'd say:tongue:


i third that! fire that thing up and post it for the rest of the world to drool over. and not just tease us!


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## stixshooter (Mar 18, 2006)

Yea on the split limbs, haven't seen one.... been told..... November sometime, so far my 06 Ross is lookin pretty good as to what I've seen to date in the market.
:darkbeer:


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## tiner64 (Oct 10, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> Time for a little scanner action I'd say:tongue:



BT- Guardian :

WWAG ... any info !!! 


"rumor" was BT has a split-limb 07' model... (yep) I could just see BT offering one ... BEST EVER , & why not ??? :zip: 

magazine "PICS" ... anyone


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

Paul S. said:


> If there really is a picture out there on a magazine, then why all the "coming soon" stuff? Spill it allready!!!



Because they ran the ad before they were supposed to...


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Is somebody going to give it up or do I have to go looking for PBR magazine?

:zip:


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

Enough talk. More scanning.

Greg


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Scan Picture Please


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## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

Someone better get a copy and scan it during lunch break today. I would but I have to go get a passport done.


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

Tax Lawyer said:


> Is somebody going to give it up or do I have to go looking for PBR magazine?
> 
> :zip:



If you head off to the newstand it's called Bullrider...:tongue: :wink:


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## Paul S. (Sep 14, 2003)

BowTech_Shooter said:


> Because they ran the ad before they were supposed to...


Ouch. I take it that was supposed to be NEXT months ad?


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> If you head off to the newstand it's called Bullrider...


I'm guessing the picture isn't going to come from South Central PA. LOL:wink:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

I know everyone's job was at stake over the secrecy of the 07's

So are ya'all gonna boot the PBR out as a sponser cause they screwed up

Someone get that thing scanned and posted. This thread is no longer useful without pictures


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

BowTech_Shooter said:


> If you head off to the newstand it's called Bullrider...:tongue: :wink:


I have a mission at lunch.


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## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I have a mission at lunch.


Git-R-Done. :thumbs_up


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

meanv2 said:


> So are ya'all gonna boot the PBR out as a sponser cause they screwed up


They don't sponsor us, we sponsor them and the PBR wasn't at fault. I believe it was a Grand View Media oopsie


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

Well, no that advirtizing has hit the shelves, why not post a picture, and maybe some details here????
I know that there are several of us waiting to see what Bowtech has for 07, with $$$$ ready to spend!


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## fultontx (Apr 28, 2004)

bullwacker said:


> It is called the Guardian with Center Piviot design


could anyone elaborate on what this means? (center pivot design)


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I have a mission at lunch.


I will look as well today, I do have a scanner in my office but I highly doubt I will find this Bullridng magazine he on post....wish me luck :wink:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I have a mission at lunch.


We're counting on you!!

Please someone!!

Where is the Bowtech Cowboy when you need him


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

BowTech_Shooter said:


> They don't sponsor us, we sponsor them and the PBR wasn't at fault. I believe it was a Grand View Media oopsie


Whoops! That's even worse 

Well I guess as long as Grand View Media gets the blame everyone is safe


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

meanv2 said:


> We're counting on you!!
> 
> Please someone!!
> 
> Where is the Bowtech Cowboy when you need him


I just played a little hookey and went to the two big places that sell mags. 

No luck.


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## JC280 (Jul 22, 2002)

*Well not in Georgia*

I just called Grand View Media and no one in Georgia has this magazine on the newstand. They are going to mail me a copy today though.:wink:


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

What is the exact name and issue of the mag?

I am sneaking out of the office in a few :wink:

ok, I see the name.....assuming its the NOV issue....


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

fultontx said:


> could anyone elaborate on what this means? (center pivot design)



I wonder if it is similar in principal to the old TSS bows that had a long riser and long limbs that were supported in the middle with no limb pockets. Picture it with shorter limbs and a parallel design. You get a longer working length in the limb and it should be very quiet if this is what it is like.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

The Total Shooting System bows were a split limb also


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Here's a TSS Quadraflex:wink: 

I wanted one of these when they first came out but were pricey 

http://cgi.ebay.com/TSS-QUADRAFLEX-...ryZ20838QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

OK, 3 magazine shops/stores here on the base and no "Bullrider"  hopefully someone has better luck than I.....................


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

In looking at that old TSS Quadraflex, the limb pivot is WAY behind the low point of the grip, like 2 inches of deflex in that riser If this is incorporated in today's parallel limb bows,, accuracy and forgivness should be super


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Maybe they did this on purpose
Just for a teaser
Come on guys I don't even have a bookstore near me

It's what I get for living in the boonies

Comeon Bowtech Cowboy!! It's time to Cowboy Up


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

meanv2 said:


> Maybe they did this on purpose
> Just for a teaser
> Come on guys I don't even have a bookstore near me
> 
> ...





YOU live out in the boonies???

I don't even have a town near me


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## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*I wouldn't be surprised...*

Russ (WWAG) was thinking the same thing that popped into my head. Should give less limb strain, and less after shot vibration. This could make things very interesting. Just when I was thinking that the new Hoyts looked very impressive (and they do). Another possible modern use of previously tried technology. Some companies would claim that they invented it!:wink:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> YOU live out in the boonies???
> 
> I don't even have a town near me


I have a town near me, just nothing there

Main street looks like a ghost town


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## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 5, 2005)

Just checked four places here for the mag. No luck. I did learn there is alot of horse/rodeo/cowboy magazines out there though. 

Come on Bowtech. Just post the ad on your website or here. It's out of the bag now anyway.:wink:


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

Sombody call Bullwacker, because he seems to be the only one that has a copy of the ad!!!!
Around SE Michigan, the closest thing to a Bullrider magazine is a picture of the Democratic national convention.


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

cameron said:


> Around SE Michigan, the closest thing to a Bullrider magazine is a picture of the Democratic national convention.


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

Wow, sounds interesting. I may have me a Bowtech this year.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

im borderline ADD and OCD as it is

someone comes on here with possible pic news of the new bowtechs

*I NEED TO SEE SOME PICS*


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## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Look at the bottom of this thread, does that tell you how many people are waiting to see a bowtech!!


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## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

lol there is like 20 people watching this thread!!


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> lol there is like 20 people watching this thread!!


Yeah and only 19 of them don't know what's going on . LOL:wink:


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

I am off to WalMart to check their magazine rack.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Texans, they are never around when you need them  :tongue:


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

PatriotDually said:


> lol there is like 20 people watching this thread!!


Just shows you how many are wanting to see them new Bowtechs.
I see more lurkers here than on the Hoyt, Mathews, or Even Ross 07 threads :wink: ...........heck it's even got the "Pink Camo's show'n her tatoo thread" beat :tongue:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Yeah and only 19 of them don't know what's going on . LOL:wink:


Smarty


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

Josh Michaelis said:


> Texans, they are never around when you need them  :tongue:




We're still fightin!


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Durocab1 said:


> We're still fightin!



There are only 39 PBR magazines in the nation, and they are all probably in TX, so keep it up duro:wink:


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

greenhead3 said:


> I am off to WalMart to check their magazine rack.


No Luck.......


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

greenhead3 said:


> No Luck.......



Figures, im afraid we are going to have to rely on Texas.

God help us


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

Callin Books-A-Million right now.

Greg


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

I tried and I couldnt find the stupid magazine.


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

No luck.

Greg


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## heilman181 (Mar 24, 2006)

buck breath said:


> Something about a new one capable of 360fps


Curiousity Question: What good is 350+ fps with a competition speed limit of 288 fps? Is it so that you can shoot much lower poundage?


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

heilman181 said:


> Curiousity Question: What good is 350+ fps with a competition speed limit of 288 fps? Is it so that you can shoot much lower poundage?


What if you have a 24" DL?

I would rather increase arrow weight and slow the bow down than vice versa.


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## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

Speed is driven by the Hunters, they make up most of the bow consumers.


heilman181 said:


> Curiousity Question: What good is 350+ fps with a competition speed limit of 288 fps? Is it so that you can shoot much lower poundage?


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

heilman181 said:


> Curiousity Question: What good is 350+ fps with a competition speed limit of 288 fps? Is it so that you can shoot much lower poundage?


Flatter shooting arrow, more room for error/less pins on my hunting bow.


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## ijimmy (Jul 2, 2002)

bullwacker said:


> It has split limbs


 That invites a coment , but Im resisting


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## TuneIt (Mar 25, 2005)

I looked at lunch and found none at the Walmart near me. ??? Maybe a Cavenders, or Sheplers would have it??? Sorry guys, I tried.


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't even want to see it now. I sure hope nobody finds the picture and posts it on here. Nope, don't want to see it..........








COME ON! Would someone please post the picture so I can get back to work and not get fired from my job for being on AT!:tongue:


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

All these people looking for this "Bullrider" magazine and no one can find it.

Apparently this add is not in a very effective location. :wink: :tongue:


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## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

This is killing me. I really don't want to buy another new bow this year since I have a tribute and constitution, but I guess we'll see about that now.


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## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

ok i have been to 3 different stores and can't find it!! grrr


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## underwoodbits (Oct 11, 2006)

There suppose to be at Wal Mart, Barnes and Noble, and Books A Million. Going to wal mart right now and they never heard of it at barnes and noble here.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Well, I decided to check the magazine area of the university library and...



















No "Bullrider" magazine to be found. Go figure.:sad:


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## raceguy (Jun 22, 2005)

Barnes and Noble has it!! 

Only it was the Sepember Edition, Oct. not in yet. Damn!!!!


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## Sean Jackson (Oct 17, 2006)

*Here you go*


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Sean Jackson said:


>




Wow


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

*Bout Time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

WOW!!!
it's Odd looking, I wonder if this is the speedster????


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

Thanks!

I for one am stickin w/ my Alle. That thing is just plain ugly.

Greg


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Told ya':wink: Looks like a good one inch of deflex riser geometry:tongue: 

Can you say,,,














Tack Driver!!!!


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Wow is right. Looks like WWAG was almost spot on.


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

Err, I dont see a pic. Is this a joke? Or is it not working? Can someone try and repost?


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## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 5, 2005)

Nice call WWAG. :wink: 

Not sure what I think about it though.:confused2:


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## FallFever (Mar 8, 2003)

I can't see it either. from work anyways. I will try again when I get home.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Looks like it might have split limbs.

Also looks like Elite and Bowtech cams appear similiar again.

Will poundage adjustment be the same as always?


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Am I the only one that can't see a picture?


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

wheres the pic


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## JRF20 (Jul 14, 2006)

Very odd looking. What will they think of next?


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Sean Jackson said:


>



Here it is again 


For those who asked:wink:


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

Theres no pic, just a bunch of jokers.


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## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

meanv2 said:


> Am I the only one that can't see a picture?


Can't see it either....


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh im going to pull my hair out someone please post a pic that shows up


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

*mmmm*

that sucks if you can't see the pics cause it is definately different....I saved one to my pc...I'll email it to anyone that can't see it on here...

Not sure if I like it or not....I'm kind without opinion at the moment. I think I won't know on this until I touch one....I have to admit the Elite Synergy is better looking to my eyes but this one could grow on me.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

It got shut down from Geocities.............


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Interesting, I can't see it now, I could see it a second ago.


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## phf (Jul 17, 2006)

*pic*

I can't see the pic, could someone email it to me at [email protected]

thanks

phf


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

OK so explain to be about the hinges..........looks kind of funky to me.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 5, 2005)

It was there. I think the hits crashed the geosites server.


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## JRF20 (Jul 14, 2006)

If you cannot see the pic, try right clicking on the icon and select "show picture". It worked for me.


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## 1cbr_guy (Oct 30, 2005)

Someone needs a Photobucket tutorial. There is nothing but a red X where the picture should be. Refresh the link to your picture hosting service please. 



Ahhhhhhhh....there it is!!!:wink:


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

And it's gone!.......LOL

I think it looks AWESOME!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Ya'll know what,, looks like VERY little preload in those limbs Maybe dosen't need a bow press??:secret:


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Now I can see it again. I don't know what is going on 

Wow, look at all the people viewing at the bottom of the thread now.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> It was there. I think the hits crashed the geosites server.


 :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :tongue:


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

Techy said:


> All these people looking for this "Bullrider" magazine and no one can find it.
> 
> Apparently this add is not in a very effective location. :wink: :tongue:


I'd say it's in a VERY effective spot...It's on the outside of the back cover...


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

Holy hell that thing is hidious.


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

Certainly different.

The riser looks like a tree 

I thought the tec risers were different this is going to take some getting used to:darkbeer:


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## smitty72 (Jan 29, 2006)

Looks different I'll wait to shoot one before I decide if I'll get one or not Anyone know if its the one thats supposed to shoot 350fps??


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

Look at all the people now flocking to this thread :wink:


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## 1cbr_guy (Oct 30, 2005)

I'm not really sure what I'm seeing. I dont understand the benefit of the center pivot limb bracing. I guess I would have to shoot it to understand. A new cam as well?


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## Sean Jackson (Oct 17, 2006)

sorry you can't see you guys blew my data transfer rate on my site.

upgrading now for ya, give me a few.


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## JC280 (Jul 22, 2002)

*Buss cables*

Anyone notice the buss cables? Something looks different.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

BowTech_Shooter said:


> I'd say it's in a VERY effective spot...It's on the outside of the back cover...


I agree with that.

I was just entertaining the fact that no one could find this magazine.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

Look at this cam and the new Elite Cam :zip: .............


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## FallFever (Mar 8, 2003)

What are the advantages to this design ? Less stress on the limbs ??

FF


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

Now we just need real specs....before I decide to order one....I'm not carrying that thing around unless it's quite the step up in some kind of performance haha....


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

Gotta love those ENGINEERS...

One thing is for certain = it will be QUIET.........shhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

siucowboy said:


> Now we just need real specs....before I decide to order one....I'm not carrying that thing around unless it's quite the step up in some kind of performance haha....


Exactly.

Greg


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

I am hoping this isn't the speedster bow cause I think I would rather buy an 07 Allegiance....................


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## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

jc280, maybe that will help keep the cam straighter ? If I can see the pick it looks like the buss cable attaches on the shooters side.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

I wonder what the speed is going to be on that thing.


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## dhayse32 (Jul 19, 2006)

So is the little red X suppose to be the riser????? All I am seeing is a little box with a red X.......


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

Now that we have seen the pic maybe bowtech_shooter will tell us why it looks like that, and how that design works? It definatly looks..innovative.


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## bry2476 (Jul 9, 2005)

please someone post the pic on the thread so anyone can see it, upload it to AT and post, I am at work and firewall is blocking it

thanks


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## Sean Jackson (Oct 17, 2006)

should be back up now (See page 2)


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## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

Try this.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Here for those that cant see it


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## dhayse32 (Jul 19, 2006)

How accurate is this????? Is this a true Bowtech bow??


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

It's kinda funny...I talked to my BT dealer yesterday. I was kinda hem-hawwing around about the 07's.

Last Saturday I had a premonition up in my treestand. I was thinking about the split-limbed BT Stryker crossbow....and shazaammm

well, I said the same thing yesterday to my BT dealer. You see the PBR was in Columbus last weekend...and my BT dealer wouldn't commit but I knew that it was a split-limbed bow.

Get this.....no real 350 FPS in the works as of yet,

BUT...........this GUARDIAN will be THE you know what...and guess what in less than 3 weeks after shooting one

WE will all want one...........there.....I suppose I should put my EQ on eBay...

:darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :wink:



> I wonder what the speed is going to be on that thing.



I'm guessing 330 - 335 fps...


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## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

I am sorry, but that thing is just plain UGLY. Looks like something off Deep Space Nine. I hope they didnt do all their bows like this for 07'.

But then again everyone laughed at the TEC risers when they first came out.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

BowtechArch said:


> It's kinda funny...I talked to my BT dealer yesterday. I was kinda hem-hawwing around about the 07's.
> 
> Last Saturday I had a premonition up in my treestand. I was thinking about the split-limbed BT Stryker crossbow....and shazaammm
> 
> ...



I just listed my Tribute


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Would it truely be a deflexed riser though? The pivot point of the limbs appears to be the back truss.....for lack of better words.

Also, although my eyes could be deceiving me, it appears that the back "truss" can be moved......possibly.


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## One-shot (Sep 21, 2005)

98 viewers at this moment and rising......  ...... I'm not sure what to think of that bow..... think I will stick with my 06 Alligence for a while...... that thing just doesn't look normal.... hahahahha


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## TuneIt (Mar 25, 2005)

Looks like draw length is adjusted by moving to a different post. Maybe 3 different cams for different ranges of draw length? Over all, interesting design.


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

Look at the riser where the limbs pivot...the BT engineers have effectively cut down the limb travel in HALF.

What does that mean to you and me??

QUIET.

I wonder if BT needs a control's engineer with 18 years of experience?

Will my wife want to move to the NorthWest??

lol...........


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## bry2476 (Jul 9, 2005)

Looks high tech, but so did the mach X and I wasn't impressed with it. Plus they copied the cams from Elite :wink: I bet it will be a great bow, I wonder what the pivot riser does? I sure we will get all the details in couple weeks. Thanks for uploading the pic for all to see.


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## TuneIt (Mar 25, 2005)

I'm guessing the back "trust" can be moved to adjust draw weight. ?


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Specs, please?


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## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

meanv2 said:


> I just listed my Tribute


I just got off the phone with ya & if you listed your tribute i got first dibs:wink: 
If thats an 07, it will have to grow on me.......alot


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> Would it truely be a deflexed riser though? The pivot point of the limbs appears to be the back truss.....for lack of better words.
> 
> Also, although my eyes could be deceiving me, it appears that the back "truss" can be moved......possibly.


Yes and No..

The back "truss" cannot be moved vertically, that is just a round cutout above/below the truss in the riser.

Think about this fellas.........when the string travels forward and the limbs/truss move back to the resting position..

Man....talk about ZERO vibration!!

I bet the BT engineers watched a lot of high-speed video of a parallel limbed bow's limb travel (say that 3 times fast!!)

One inventive engineer realized that they could effectively cut down on that limb travel by adding a movable truss...

As the Guinness Stout Beer commercial says:

BRILLIANT!!


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

now i see it and dont really know what to make of it, how does this "Center truss" work what purpose does it serve

Elite cams and bowtech cams look really similar (joint venture?)

I think ill stick with my OG for now (unless that thing really "just works" so to speak) and it better be fast given its looks

overall

NOT SOLD YET


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

The riser looks like a tree branch and the cams look like Elite's. Not the best looking, but I can't wait to find out the specs and shoot one. With that center pivot idea, it looks like they are improving and beefing up the limb strength. Will it be to dealers in Nov. for us to try out?


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## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

It does look like a new cam and slightly thinner grip though.

Bowtech you might as well release the entire 2007 lineup now.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

WEll, I want one,, in target blue:tongue: 


Suppose people will be able to identify this bow out on the 3D ranges from a distance


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## tuskbuster (Apr 8, 2006)

mdewitt71 said:


> OK so explain to be about the hinges..........looks kind of funky to me.


The hindge supports the limb in the Hot Spot and causes the limb to load from there to the tip. It will be a split limb. But won't have the the center track wheel the original Quadraflex had.


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## brian626 (Sep 18, 2006)

I will stick with my trykon i already have too much money into getting the damn thing to quiet down.


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## 3dpro (May 29, 2006)

*bowtech*

Dont think I want no part of that one my 06 is just fine like it is


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## KyTominator (Sep 15, 2006)

"Plus they copied the cams from Elite"
Now I have nothing against Bowtech and I don't own an Elite either. But didn't we have this ongoing thing on here about other companies copying Bowtech looks and ideas and didn't an unnamed company have to quit making bows and cams that looked like Bowtechs. Looks kinda like the shoe might be on the other foot at least as far as looking at the cams goes.


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Cams look like the ones on the elite Synergy?*



Josh Michaelis said:


> Here for those that cant see it



I saw a post the other week about the new Elite Synergy. Those cams look alike to me.

Who will when this time????


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## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

My thinking in that pivot point that far out on the limb, may just be to also reduce the Limb twist/cam lean that has been talked about so many times for the past couple years. Maybe? 

I'm gonna have to shoot one and see how I like it.....sure looks Different....to say the least...


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Yea Right!*



meanv2 said:


> I just listed my Tribute


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## nccrutch (Feb 26, 2003)

... and the cables on each side of the cam to reduce lean.


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> My thinking in that pivot point that far out on the limb, may just be to also reduce the Limb twist/cam lean that has been talked about so many times for the past couple years. Maybe?


You are correct. My BT dealer did allude to the fact that BT did manage to eliminate whatever cam lean/twist issue they had that started with the 05's.


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## bry2476 (Jul 9, 2005)

KyTominator said:


> "Plus they copied the cams from Elite"
> Now I have nothing against Bowtech and I don't own an Elite either. But didn't we have this ongoing thing on here about other companies copying Bowtech looks and ideas and didn't an unnamed company have to quit making bows and cams that looked like Bowtechs. Looks kinda like the shoe might be on the other foot at least as far as looking at the cams goes.


Well the Guardian sure doesn't look like the new Elites. I thought it was kinda funny that the Cams are similiar looking, the same can be said about most wheels and cam, they are round or oblong  If that bow reminds me of any it is the Mach X, (Short Limbs). That may be stretching it but I hope that bow is much better, I am sure it will be.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

I've always liked something that looks different

I think the proof will be in the shooting


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## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

BowtechArch said:


> You are correct. My BT dealer did allude to the fact that BT did manage to eliminate whatever cam lean/twist issue they had that started with the 05's.



=) 

I feel smart now......all the time I spend here on AT has paid off!


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## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

That looks awesome! It looks like that it is gonna track up and down the limb as you draw back and release, completely elimanating vibration!


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

*Fyi....*

Small detail here, but....

Looks like the grips might be removable!:thumb:

-ZA


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## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

buckfeverben said:


> =)
> 
> I feel smart now......all the time I spend here on AT has paid off!


Ask your employer if they think it paid off!


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## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

ZA206 said:


> Small detail here, but....
> 
> Looks like the grips might be removable!:thumb:
> 
> -ZA


Possibly Side plates


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

ZA206 said:


> Small detail here, but....
> 
> Looks like the grips might be removable!:thumb:
> 
> -ZA


Good eye, dont think anyone else picked that out.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Looks like a limb brace.

So far, I like it. :wink:


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## Lazlo Hollyfeld (Sep 27, 2006)

that looks freaking sweet.:RockOn:


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## 383bull (Dec 30, 2005)

I think it looks pretty cool, its definately different, I'm sure it will be quite a bit different from anything we have shot before, I'd bet its pretty fast, they wouldn't come out with this thing unless it performs. I wonder how the draw cycle is going to be?


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## alain (Dec 10, 2003)

Its look really differente but if that thing shoot like a dream i will have one.

Do you think Bowtech will have grip option in 07, because the grip on the pic look to have a allen screw in it.


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## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Oh man, look at the people viewing this thread. The bow looks sweet, more like a work of art. I cant wait to put on in my hands, i wonder what the specs are. I want a 3d bow!!


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## bigrackHack (Jun 11, 2004)

Well, I bet the Oneida guys are smiling. Nobody is going to call their bows the ugliest anymore.

At least BT confirmed that there were limb splinter/limb twist/cam lean issues and addressed it accordingly. Who knows.....the damn thing might just shoot. :darkbeer:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Being around some very old compounds,, back when they were new,,, the Guardian looks like a cross between the Martin KamAct and a TSS quadraflex Cool in it's VERY own way:tongue: I'll bet it's quiet and forgiving and,,,,,,,,, BULLET PROOF


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## EricO (Nov 24, 2004)

> Well, I bet the Oneida guys are smiling. Nobody is going to call their bows the ugliest anymore.


Post of the year right there.


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

I don't think the bow is that ugly.

If it is doing 350 fps with a decent BH, I am all over it.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I don't think the bow is that ugly.
> 
> If it is doing 350 fps with a decent BH, I am all over it.


me too 60#er please


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## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

It's not ugly at all, if it holds nice it will be a heck of a bow. If it holds like the Old Glory, i will be owning one. If it is over 35 AtoA, its a done deal.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

mq32hunter said:


> It's not ugly at all, if it holds nice it will be a heck of a bow. If it holds like the Old Glory, i will be owning one. If it is over 35 AtoA, its a done deal.


 Not sure what the ATA is but I'm wondering if they will have another one for target like this one? I'll bet this is their hunting model.


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## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

Wow, that is definately different. But I bet it's gonna be a shooter :tongue:


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## Daniel BOOM (Dec 19, 2005)

More I look at it less ugly it is. Maybe im getting over the initial shock. Would be worth getting if that design does somthing revolutionary. If its just a gimmick that doesnt really work though, no bow for me.


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

Its rather ugly I think. Might grow on me though.... It looks like a short ATA and a 7.5" BH.... to me that is. Probably shoots good, but so will the Hoyts and Mathews has not released their hunting bows, I just know I am not buying another bow this next spring; that just costs too much!


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## 1cbr_guy (Oct 30, 2005)

Oneidas might be ugly to some, but they are sweet shooters. This Bowtech is kinda ugly, but I bet you'll be shocked when you shoot it.  Kinda like me....ugly and sweet! :wink: :tongue: 

People called the Hayabusa ugly too......UNTIL THEY DROVE ONE!


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## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

*sweet*

very impressive looking bow.still wondering what the specs are.I've given my deposite regardless.can't wait to shoot it:whoo:


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

1cbr_guy said:


> Oneidas might be ugly to some, but they are sweet shooters. This Bowtech is kinda ugly, but I bet you'll be shocked when you shoot it.  Kinda like me....ugly and sweet! :wink: :tongue:
> 
> People called the Hayabusa ugly too......UNTIL THEY DROVE ONE!


Ironic, since you are CBR guy, yet you have a VTR 1000 Superhawk for your Avatar...LOL just could not resist!

Back to the topic!


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

I doubt I have ever seen a bow company go those lengths to fix a problem they and their fanboys denied even existed for the last couple of years.
That said its a novel way of dealing with the issue, sure looks like it could work tho. 
beautiful it aint but it may well be very functional.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Anyone else notice that there is no limb silencers on the bow in the picture?? Must not be needed?:secret:


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

walks with a gi said:


> Anyone else notice that there is no limb silencers on the bow in the picture?? Must not be needed?:secret:


Like where the heck were they gonna putem gimpy.:tongue:


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## 1cbr_guy (Oct 30, 2005)

Jeff K in IL said:


> Ironic, since you are CBR guy, yet you have a VTR 1000 Superhawk for your Avatar...LOL just could not resist!
> 
> Back to the topic!


Good eye, Jeff. Not many folks pick up on that. That is a picture of my current bike, but I rode a CBR when I joined AT. :wink:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

*Any one know??*

I'm going hunting in just a few minutes, if say,,,, like if I "almost" fell out of my stand,, but didn't and my Tribute hit the ground and was "totaled out",, would my insurance cover it??:wink:


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## straitshot (Jul 6, 2005)

im staring at this bow and trying to figure out how i would press it. the pivot point looks to close to the cam. 

i guess improper pressing wont be an issue anymore.:wink:


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## raceguy (Jun 22, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> I'm going hunting in just a few minutes, if say,,,, like if I "almost" fell out of my stand,, but didn't and my Tribute hit the ground and was "totaled out",, would my insurance cover it??:wink:


I guess if your stand is on the side of your house maybe you could file a claim under homeowners insurance.

I'll make it easier for you..... Give me your address and maybe "accidentally" leave your bow on the front porch. It "might" get stolen :wink:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

raceguy said:


> I guess if your stand is on the side of your house maybe you could file a claim under homeowners insurance.
> 
> I'll make it easier for you..... Give me your address and maybe "accidentally" leave your bow on the front porch. It "might" get stolen :wink:



LOL,, man I might have started an epidemic of "loss" with insurance claims in Redneckvilles around the country


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I'm goin' huntin'. My Tribute and I need to be alone for a while:sad: :wink:


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## phf (Jul 17, 2006)

I just ordered mine in HD green, cant wait to see it and shoot it!


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## EricO (Nov 24, 2004)

phf said:


> I just ordered mine in HD green, cant wait to see it and shoot it!


Where did you place your order at?


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

walks with a gi said:


> I'll bet this is their hunting model.


What gave it away, the camo job? Just giving ya crap!!


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## FallFever (Mar 8, 2003)

By the time the left handed ones come out, I may have enough money saved !:wink: Unless the wife finds it !! 

FF


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## T-LaBee (Dec 28, 2003)

*Pressing*



straitshot said:


> im staring at this bow and trying to figure out how i would press it. the pivot point looks to close to the cam.
> 
> i guess improper pressing wont be an issue anymore.:wink:


I don't believe you need to put it in a press at all.

Tom


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

phf said:


> I just ordered mine in HD green, cant wait to see it and shoot it!


Why in the heck would anybody put money down on something without handling and shooting it first?


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## mbklmann (Jun 12, 2005)

matforme said:


> Why in the heck would anybody put money down on something without handling and shooting it first?



Its his money and he'll spend it however he wants.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

matforme said:


> Why in the heck would anybody put money down on something without handling and shooting it first?



Ask all those Elite and Ross guys:wink:


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## mbklmann (Jun 12, 2005)

I wana know specs. ATA, brace height, poundage options, letoff, and all that. I would also love to know how the valley feels when you draw back and how the draw cycle feels. I am convinced that it will deadly quiet and flat shooting fast. I dont LOVE how it look but i dont despise of it either. One downside of this bow is it looks like it will be heavy because they added about anoher pound (guessing) of aluminum. That wont be good in hunting situations when you have to walk miles at a time carrying it.


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

I have been a Bowtech faithful over the past few years, but that thing is just ugly no matter which way you slice it.

Now I do like the idea that the string is now on the center track of the cam, and the cable take up is on the other side. But other than that, I'm not impressed.


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## vonottoexperien (Nov 4, 2005)

I like it but I dont think it will be avalible in my DL


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

matforme said:


> Why in the heck would anybody put money down on something without handling and shooting it first?


I bought my Tribute without shooting one. I had the opportunity to shoot the Defender because this was the only 05' the shop had left in my draw length. I guess I went with the reputation and how well the Defender shot. I would bet that this Bowtech will shoot well beyond our expectations. That being said I like my Tribute so much you would have to pry it from my hands to get it away from me. The best sight unseen purchase I have ever made!


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Silver Dingo said:


> I doubt I have ever seen a bow company go those lengths to fix a problem they and their fanboys denied even existed for the last couple of years.
> That said its a novel way of dealing with the issue, sure looks like it could work tho.
> beautiful it aint but it may well be very functional.



You have obviously never shot the current line-up to make such a statement. 

The '06 bows shoot better for me than any other line-up of bows on the market. If the '07s shoot better, I will be tempted to buy one, but that is a big if, because the '06s were really good. 

I think the Guardian is a cool looking bow, but a decision to buy one will be based on how it shoots. If it shoots, people will learn to love the look, if it doesn't, they will think it is ugly. If it is the best shooter out there like I thought the Tribute was this year, I may pick one up. The thing I am excited about is the innovation. Bowtech continues to innovate and try new things. Their bows never seem to mimic the rest of the market. They like to do things no one else is doing, like binary cams, and that forces the rest of the market to innovate to keep up, especially with innovations as successful as the binary cams. It is a stark contrast to some companies who sit there and wait years, and then just follow the market. Some companies are waiting until this year to move most of their bows to parallel limb designs, which the market indicated they wanted several years ago. I like a company that isn't afraid to try something no one else is doing, which is why I liked the PSE Mach-x. I didn't like the way it shot for me, but at least PSE had a pair and didn't just follow the trend a couple of years late. It is good to see Bowtech continue to innovate. I hope it shoots well, but based on their history, it will.


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## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

I don't think anyone can really form a solid opinion based on just a picture of the bow. You gotta shoot it before you make up your mind, at least that's what I plan on doing. 


Can you guys just imagine how fast a Crackerized Guardian is going to be? lol!


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

It's the reputation of the company that sells a bow sight unseen. 
Being a lefty I have had to buy sight unseen quite a bit and have never been dissapointed by Bowtech- NEVER, and thats after owning 5 different models. :wink: 
That is why Bowtech and Ross both will get my "Lefty' business this year with there new models :tongue: ..............


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## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

You gotta give it to bowtech, they are comming up with new things. You look at some of the other companies and nothing changes. Besides minor things, they stay the same. Why do people think this bow is so ugly, is it because it does not fallow the same lines of a typical bow? I like change, if it makes the product better.


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## stodr (Sep 4, 2002)

I don't think that is a split limb persay it is just a hole for the trust. You can see in the one picture where it is solid again before it gets to the came.


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## tuskbuster (Apr 8, 2006)

straitshot said:


> im staring at this bow and trying to figure out how i would press it. the pivot point looks to close to the cam.
> 
> i guess improper pressing wont be an issue anymore.:wink:


Maybe you don't need a press, just adjust the pivot point.


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## sirrobinhood (Jun 15, 2005)

*Cams*

So who really designed the cams...BT or Elite??
I'd say Elite....first ones to the market:tongue:


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## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Hmmm, well... it's definately different. I'll reserve judgment until after I've shot one and had a chance to let it "grow" on me.


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## grasshopper (Aug 13, 2004)

I scaled the photo up assuming that the cable guide rod is 3/8" and come up with a 34" axle to axle, and a brace height just north of 6". The brace measures at a hair over 6", but the bow is tilted a bit in the pic, so it is hard to say how much over 6". 

If this really is a 34" bow, that is a long riser. Remember, this is all based on an assumption, and you know what happens when you make an assumption...


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

sirrobinhood said:


> So who really designed the cams...BT or Elite??
> I'd say Elite....first ones to the market:tongue:


Elites shape maybe the same (remember he worked for bowtech and probably had info on works for a couple of years) but the cams are defenetly different. Kevins string track is on the 1st track while bowtechs are in the center eliminating limb twist at full draw. I wonder if this is a new design to be placed on all there bows? If so i should have waited another year! 
Interesting looking bow. Any specs on this thing?


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

I am anxious to see the specs as well , ok I admit it, I am anxious to get my hands on it ! 

Bowtech rocks again :RockOn:


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## ijimmy (Jul 2, 2002)

mbklmann said:


> I wana know specs. ATA, brace height, poundage options, letoff, and all that. I would also love to know how the valley feels when you draw back and how the draw cycle feels. I am convinced that it will deadly quiet and flat shooting fast. I dont LOVE how it look but i dont despise of it either. One downside of this bow is it looks like it will be heavy because they added about anoher pound (guessing) of aluminum. That wont be good in hunting situations when you have to walk miles at a time carrying it.


Ditto , that things got to have some mass weight , Im betting 5 lbs +


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## T-LaBee (Dec 28, 2003)

*It may not be all aluminum*



ijimmy said:


> Ditto , that things got to have some mass weight , Im betting 5 lbs +


Just a guess...but the trusses may be carbon fiber ...or...??


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

ijimmy said:


> Ditto , that things got to have some mass weight , Im betting 5 lbs +


I'm betting its not much heavier. it looks like theres about the same amount of allumn in the bow.


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## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

I'm just wondering what kind of special rigging/tool that you have to have to work on this bow.


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## jimposten (May 17, 2006)

It looks like the poundage adjustments will be made by adjusting where the pivoting arm on the back of the riser contacts the limbs. 

I am a fan of bowtech, but That thing looks strange. I am too scared of change to try some thing like that out. Someone needs to slow this evolution of modern archery down. I just got my first parrallel limb bow.  

A new Bow will go obsolete sooner than a new computer these days.


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## jimposten (May 17, 2006)

where are the binary cams?


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## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

jimposten said:


> A new Bow will go obsolete sooner than a new computer these days.


Your right about that!! But, one thing I've always kind of admired about Bowtech is that they always seem willing to try new things and jump on the latest technology. It takes a company or companies like Bowtech to push the envelope.


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## BoTec1 (Jul 15, 2006)

*2007 Bowtech*

*Thank God For The Tribute!!!*


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## BowtechAndy (Oct 31, 2003)

that thing is going to be one hell of a performer to get me to buy it. Its gotta be the ugliest thing I have ever seen. Even uglier that the tec riser.:wink:


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

sirrobinhood said:


> So who really designed the cams...BT or Elite??
> I'd say Elite....first ones to the market:tongue:



Bowtech and many popular companies have their bowlines designed years in advance! I would bet that Bowtech had this cam designed early in 06', possibly in 05'!


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2006)

It looks like it will be fast.... it may burn your the fletchings off the shafts!!!


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## tuskbuster (Apr 8, 2006)

Kelsnore said:


> Bowtech and many popular companies have their bowlines designed years in advance! I would bet that Bowtech had this cam designed early in 06', possibly in 05'!


You mean while Kevin was there.


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## jdarcher1 (Jul 10, 2006)

phf said:


> I just ordered mine in HD green, cant wait to see it and shoot it!


If you truly just ordered one sight unseen. Im hoping you asked for specs. Spill the beans man. Inquiring minds want to know


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

grasshopper said:


> I scaled the photo up assuming that the cable guide rod is 3/8" and come up with a 34" axle to axle, and a brace height just north of 6". The brace measures at a hair over 6", but the bow is tilted a bit in the pic, so it is hard to say how much over 6".
> 
> If this really is a 34" bow, that is a long riser. Remember, this is all based on an assumption, and you know what happens when you make an assumption...


It looks to be canted pretty good to me. I would bet the brace is North of 7". Hopefully 7.5" or better. 34" and 7.5" would work for me if the bow is still fairly light.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Actually I think it's cool looking:tongue: Enough "retro" from the past, blended into something that shoots about the same speed as the two most similar previous designs combined:wink: 

The beauty of this bow is it's uniqueness and execution of targeted improvement of desirable traits of future hunting bows. Judging from this early photo, BowTech is still leading the industry in parallel limb innovation


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## Redbarron06 (Oct 4, 2004)

:tongue: OK lets see it I am in Afghanistan and cant run down to the local news stand and get a copy. Somebody post a scan.


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

tuskbuster said:


> You mean while Kevin was there.




Tiskbuster = You don't have to like what I said...I am merely stating the truth! Do you think they come up with a design and hit the market a month later??? Surely, you can't be that naive!:wink:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Redbarron06 said:


> :tongue: OK lets see it I am in Afghanistan and cant run down to the local news stand and get a copy. Somebody post a scan.


Check page 4 of this thread


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## soccert (Jan 5, 2005)

*Bowtech*



> Bowtech continues to innovate and try new things. Their bows never seem to mimic the rest of the market.


Not here to bash bowtech but what has been so innovative with their design over other bows. Except for the 2007 Mystery bow which I do not believe was an accidental release but good marketing, but I could be wrong. And if you are going to give credit to the cams it goes to Darton not bowtech. I do however think they have done a very good job in a very short time and wish them continuing success. I just do not see that they have been more innovative than the rest of the field.


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

so this is the stick everyone says my girlfriend was hit with???? :darkbeer: :darkbeer:


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

soccert said:


> Not here to bash bowtech but what has been so innovative with their design over other bows. Except for the 2007 Mystery bow which I do not believe was an accidental release but good marketing, but I could be wrong. And if you are going to give credit to the cams it goes to Darton not bowtech. I do however think they have done a very good job in a very short time and wish them continuing success. I just do not see that they have been more innovative than the rest of the field.


You're not bashing, you're in denial for whatever reason. I don't think a bow company that has been around for barely 7 years would get ~10,000 views in a day, on a thread for a sniff of their newest bow by doing the same old thing as everyone else. And on those cams you give Darton credit for, how successful were they applying them to a bow and bringing it to market? You can point out percieved weaknesses in design, but lack of innovation is not an allegation you can make with a staight face against Bowtech.


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## jdarcher1 (Jul 10, 2006)

Double Lung 'Em said:


> so this is the stick everyone says my girlfriend was hit with???? :darkbeer: :darkbeer:


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

jimposten said:


> A new Bow will go obsolete sooner than a new computer these days.


Yeah but only if you "need" to get a new one next year, if your a frugal hunter a bow you buy new today will kill deer for years, whereas you computer might actually puke and be worthless in 2-3 yrs.

the more i look at it, the more it grows on me. ill wait to see what the specs are and what other bows they have in the lineup, that and SHOOTING them all and then deciding on what my hunting bow is going to be next year, cause the OG is getting re-limbed to 50 or 60 lb limbs shes done her job this year (7 point) and its target only time for her.

So ill be getting a strickly hunting bow this year and its down to Martin or whatever bowtech offers that shoots nice


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## jpm_mq2 (May 22, 2004)

someone has to be able to get some specs on this bow--please!


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## soccert (Jan 5, 2005)

*Bowtech*

[/QUOTE]I don't think a bow company that has been around for barely 7 years would get ~10,000 views in a day, on a thread for a sniff of their newest bow by doing the same old thing as everyone else. And on those cams you give Darton credit for, how successful were they applying them to a bow and bringing it to market? You can point out percieved weaknesses in design, but lack of innovation is not an allegation you can make with a staight face against Bowtech.


> First off, what weakness did I try to point out, did you clearly read my post. Second I gave them credit for being very succesful in a short time, is that being in denial? And yes they did bring the Binary cam into the spotlight but it still was not their patent or design, but they certainly should get credit for their use and marketing of that cam system. This leads me to my original question, what has made them so innovative above the rest of the field. Again this is not meant to bash anyone, I just do not agree with the assertion that the rest of the archery world has stood by and done nothing and Bowtech is the only innovator.


----------



## grouse (Dec 9, 2003)

Can someone help me understand what looks like axle holes in the center arms where they attach at the riser? Do these move or pivot? If so what advantage will this provide?


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!


hope that made you feel better 

least my bows werent made by Kinkos


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## azone5 (Jan 5, 2004)

That's an ugly thang... If I'm going to get Mercedes performance (and pay for it), I want it to look like a Mercedes.


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## Riverghost (Oct 11, 2004)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!



I don't care what bow you like that is funny!


----------



## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

check page 4 of this thread


jpm_mq2 said:


> someone has to be able to get some specs on this bow--please!


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!


Is this the way Elite expects its Pro Staff to represent its company? Very professional, I hope they are proud of you.


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## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!


Great post... keep it up and maybe Kevin will give you a copy next year...


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## EricO (Nov 24, 2004)

> Great post... keep it up and maybe Kevin will give you a copy next year...


NC's was good, but the points for this exchange go to Hemingway.


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## mirage55 (Jan 31, 2005)

*?????authentic pic?????*

let's see---the u.s. of a. is approaching 300 million people.
the bullrider mag must have tens of thousands of subscribers.
the person that posted the "guardian" pic has 3 posts and joined on 10/17/06--today.
but he is the only human on the planet that has seen the magazine ad.
(fyi: the cams do not appear to have been photographed from the same perspective as the riser.)
i am skeptical of the "guardian" to say the least!!!


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## Kokomo (Oct 7, 2006)

Pic of new bowtech, i hope


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## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

Oh man, that's the long awaited '07 Bowtech that everyone has been drooling over    


What kills me is 80% of Bowtech shooters on here know it's downright UGLY but they won't admit it simply because they have to stick to their guns and proclaim their elite status. All I know is that thing better be FAST for as ugly as it is lol :wink:


Bowtech..... Refuse to follow.............at least they don't lie


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

mirage55 said:


> let's see---the u.s. of a. is approaching 300 million people.
> the bullrider mag must have tens of thousands of subscribers.
> the person that posted the "guardian" pic has 3 posts and joined on 10/17/06--today.
> but he is the only human on the planet that has seen the magazine ad.
> ...


The guy that first mentioned the add has been a member here for a long while
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 54 

Though not many posts.

The guy that posted the pics is a new member.


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## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

mirage55 said:


> let's see---the u.s. of a. is approaching 300 million people.
> the bullrider mag must have tens of thousands of subscribers.
> the person that posted the "guardian" pic has 3 posts and joined on 10/17/06--today.
> but he is the only human on the planet that has seen the magazine ad.
> ...



OH GOD!!!!!!!!!! Does every picture posted on here have to be a photoshop?????

You guys need to give it a break already


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

PABowhunt4life said:


> Oh man, that's the long awaited '07 Bowtech that everyone has been drooling over
> 
> 
> What kills me is 80% of Bowtech shooters on here know it's downright UGLY but they won't admit it simply because they have to stick to their guns and proclaim their elite status. All I know is that thing better be FAST for as ugly as it is lol :wink:
> ...


Ugly no different yes.


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## parkerbows (Oct 27, 2004)

I admit it is ugly but who knows it might shoot great.


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## EricO (Nov 24, 2004)

So who's going to be the first to spout the bows specs based on an estimation of the size of the handle and that the picture is "to scale"?


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## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

elkreaper said:


> Ugly no different yes.



I don't know man lol. I was all about the Tribute and thought that Bowtech was literally one bow (year) away from being as good, or dare I say, b...bbb......better than a Mathews :zip: 


Tribute is sweet looking, FAST, quiet, and is VERY close to being as smooth as a Mathews IMO. While the new bow may be smooth and fast, I definitely think the looks of it are going to hurt their sales this year


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!



Hence the name: "the Guardian"


I crack myself up


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

PABowhunt4life said:


> I don't know man lol. I was all about the Tribute and thought that Bowtech was literally one bow (year) away from being as good, or dare I say, b...bbb......better than a Mathews :zip:
> 
> 
> Tribute is sweet looking, FAST, quiet, and is VERY close to being as smooth as a Mathews IMO. While the new bow may be smooth and fast, I definitely think the looks of it are going to hurt their sales this year


Except they still have there current lineup. I don't think this bow will hurt sales. People who want a "conventional" bow will buy current models while people who want to try something new will try this new model. There still supposably one more new one for 07. I wonder what its all about?


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## stixshooter (Mar 18, 2006)

I'll get a chance to shoot one at BTU soon but I have to say first impression... well huh...... nah.... 

I'll shoot one before I rush to judge but not near as pretty as my Ross


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## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

elkreaper said:


> Except they still have there current lineup. I don't think this bow will hurt sales. People who want a "conventional" bow will buy current models while people who want to try something new will try this new model. There still supposably one more new one for 07. I wonder what its all about?



Yeah, I understand they still have the current line up and they will continue to sell them, I just think that a lot of people are going to go in with the attitude of "We waited for this?". However, about the second bow, I will say this, if they figured out a way to make a bow as good as the Tribute, just a little smoother, my Switchback just might have a little brother moving in lol


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Hence the name: "the Guardian"
> 
> 
> I crack myself up


I think you may need something to protect you when that kinkos copy goes










Yours won't be the first!


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

elkreaper said:


> I think you may need something to protect you when that kinkos copy goes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



O.K. That was funny....you win tonight.


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## Paul S. (Sep 14, 2003)

On looks alone...I'd have to pass, but after I shoot it, I could change my mind. Deffinitly different, but for now, My Old Glorys are safe. I'm wondering what the other new bow is now?


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## Takeum (Jul 22, 2005)

I heard that this new Bowtech will reach speeds inn excess of 350.. Thats a conservative rating,,, actual speeds will reach the 380 mark,,, And to boot, this particular bow is absolutely DEAD in the hand,,I can deal with that,,, Go Bowtech!


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## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

Takeum said:


> I heard that this new Bowtech will reach speeds inn excess of 350.. Thats a conservative rating,,, actual speeds will reach the 380 mark,,, And also this particular bow absolutely is DEAD in the hand,,I can deal with that,,, Go Bowtech!



Actually, I believe this one will be 330 fps and as far as actaul speeds, are you claiming that Bowtech bows usually shoot 30 fps faster than they are supposed to? Not knocking them in anyway, but if yours shoots 30 fps faster than it's supposed to, this will be the first one I have ever heard of.


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## Sean Jackson (Oct 17, 2006)

mirage55 said:


> let's see---the u.s. of a. is approaching 300 million people.
> the bullrider mag must have tens of thousands of subscribers.
> the person that posted the "guardian" pic has 3 posts and joined on 10/17/06--today.
> but he is the only human on the planet that has seen the magazine ad.
> ...


been lurking along time...

people were asking for a pic, I had the mag, so I joined, scanned and posted. I'll send you a copy of the mag if you need further proof.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Takeum said:


> I heard that this new Bowtech will reach speeds inn excess of 350.. Thats a conservative rating,,, actual speeds will reach the 380 mark,,, And to boot, this particular bow is absolutely DEAD in the hand,,I can deal with that,,, Go Bowtech!


If it does go better than 350 its mine!


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## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

Found this on another website.......................




This is the scoop:

The Center Limb Pivot System is supposed to eliminate uneeded stress on the limbs caused by limb twist and such. It also is supposed to eliminate uneeded limb travel making the bow quieter and totally dead in the hands! IBO speeds somewhere near 330fps with split limb design.

Take it for what its worth, that is from a Bowtech Team Shooter!


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Sean Jackson said:


> been lurking along time...
> 
> people were asking for a pic, I had the mag, so I joined, scanned and posted. I'll send you a copy of the mag if you need further proof.


Thanx for the pic. Everyone was asking and no one could deliver not even the one who first mentioned it your all good!


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## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

I Want to see how it shoots before I make A decision and lets see what the other bow looks like.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!



Didn't I just read somewhere that you claimed to have never been on or bashed BowTech on a BowTech thread:wink: 

Be prepaired for paybacks:wink:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

azone5 said:


> That's an ugly thang... If I'm going to get Mercedes performance (and pay for it), I want it to look like a Mercedes.



Ummm,, you must not have been told yet,,,,BowTech has just revised Mercedes in the archery world:wink:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

mirage55 said:


> let's see---the u.s. of a. is approaching 300 million people.
> the bullrider mag must have tens of thousands of subscribers.
> the person that posted the "guardian" pic has 3 posts and joined on 10/17/06--today.
> but he is the only human on the planet that has seen the magazine ad.
> ...



That's correct ,, it's all just a "mirage",, Agent 55


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## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

what i notice is the lack of a limb pocket. so is the center pivot arm supposed to act like a elongated limb pocket? kinda like a really swept back hyperlite pocket in a way. hate to say it guys but if its like a hyperlite pocket we might see a revision done on it. i like the looks of the grip, hopefully its easily removable finally. looks like mike carter better start ordering his grips with holes in them,lol.

definitely something different and i'm sure WWAG has used a full bottle of windex on his monitor by now.:wink: 

what i would like to see is what this thing looks like at full draw to show us how much that center pivot arm actually works back and forth.

interesting to say the least, not bad bowtech.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

ursonvs said:


> what i notice is the lack of a limb pocket. so is the center pivot arm supposed to act like a elongated limb pocket? kinda like a really swept back hyperlite pocket in a way. hate to say it guys but if its like a hyperlite pocket we might see a revision done on it. i like the looks of the grip, hopefully its easily removable finally. looks like mike carter better start ordering his grips with holes in them,lol.
> 
> definitely something different and i'm sure WWAG has used a full bottle of windex on his monitor by now.:wink:
> 
> ...



"what i notice is the lack of a limb pocket"


Took you 7 pages and 290 posts to discover this?? 

Lools like you're the one that needs the windex


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## ursonvs (Sep 19, 2003)

now Russ cut me some slack silly, i work nights and haven't been on AT since noon. 

if someone else has posted what i just said, my bad.

but i know your misses will be going out to teh store tomorrow to buy windex...don't lie.


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## mirage55 (Jan 31, 2005)

*heee!!!....heee!!!!*



walks with a gi said:


> That's correct ,, it's all just a "mirage",, Agent 55



actually it's (the "guardian") may be a "vapor".

a "mirage" exists---a "mirage" is a reflection.

a "vapor" DOES NOT EXIST.

btw: i like the new name---"AGENT 55"---thanks.


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## stixshooter (Mar 18, 2006)

Takeum said:


> I heard that this new Bowtech will reach speeds inn excess of 350.. Thats a conservative rating,,, actual speeds will reach the 380 mark,,, And to boot, this particular bow is absolutely DEAD in the hand,,I can deal with that,,, Go Bowtech!


All the above but no 380 or 350 for that matter, too many people in this town talk.


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## GutzJr (Feb 19, 2005)

The Commander and General are two more you can expect, but thats all I have to say about that:zip: Gutz


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

LeesburgGamecoc said:


> You're not bashing, you're in denial for whatever reason. I don't think a bow company that has been around for barely 7 years would get ~10,000 views in a day, on a thread for a sniff of their newest bow by doing the same old thing as everyone else. And on those cams you give Darton credit for, how successful were they applying them to a bow and bringing it to market? You can point out percieved weaknesses in design, but lack of innovation is not an allegation you can make with a staight face against Bowtech.


I think marketing has made Bowtech the success that it is more than innovation. And hats off to them for it.


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

ursonvs said:


> definitely something different and i'm sure WWAG has used a full bottle of windex on his monitor by now.:wink:
> 
> 
> .


  Good one man!!


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## Twiztd1 (Oct 17, 2002)

Somebody's been stealing Kevin's cam designs. :zip:


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## fultontx (Apr 28, 2004)

Twiztd1 said:


> Somebody's been stealing Kevin's cam designs. :zip:


Heck no, man. Those aren't kevin's designs, they are prior art from the good old Ketchup patent of 1886   :darkbeer:


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

How do you press it


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## J-P (Oct 18, 2006)

Something tells me that you wont need a press. With a pivot point I bet all you have to do is let off the tension on the riser side. That thing does look odd indeed!
Oh and long time lurker, just registered after all the fuss, and have learned alot from all of you Thanks!!


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

I am a long time Bowtech freak, but this thing is radical! The question is...is it too radical for the average joe that wants to buy a high end bow strickly for hunting? I'm guessing it will grow on us all. That cam is radical as well! And there are a few IDIOTS out there claiming Bowtechs designs are a copy??? You people are seriously annoying! I think the mods need to jerk your priveledges for a while! Contribute in a positive manner, or shut the heck up! Geez already!!


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Could We Get Some Specs.....please?????


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Cool*

I would like to have one just to wind trot lines on when I'm not using them.


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## bcriner (Apr 16, 2003)

JC280 said:


> Anyone notice the buss cables? Something looks different.


Exactly, the buss cable is on the left side of the cam...maybe both sides...like a split yoke but attaches to the cam and not the axles


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Takeum said:


> I heard that this new Bowtech will reach speeds inn excess of 350.. Thats a conservative rating,,, actual speeds will reach the 380 mark,,, And to boot, this particular bow is absolutely DEAD in the hand,,I can deal with that,,, Go Bowtech!



The only way that thing is going to reach those speeds is in a terminal velocity freefall from being dropped out of a plane.


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Limey said:


> How do you press it



Very, very carefully...................


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## Fullstrut1 (Sep 9, 2004)

Hoyt is prove that ugly sells !


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## parkerbows (Oct 27, 2004)

Kelsnore said:


> I am a long time Bowtech freak, but this thing is radical! The question is...is it too radical for the average joe that wants to buy a high end bow strickly for hunting? I'm guessing it will grow on us all. That cam is radical as well! And there are a few IDIOTS out there claiming Bowtechs designs are a copy??? You people are seriously annoying! I think the mods need to jerk your priveledges for a while! Contribute in a positive manner, or shut the heck up! Geez already!!


I agree it is stupid. The binary cam was theirs to use already. I guess the shape is a copy of elites?
The cables attach to the opposite side of the cam. Is that a copy too?
How can you win this bow looks totally different that anything I have seen but somehow it is still a copy.


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## Mykey (May 20, 2003)

Beam me aboard Scottie! Thats the first thing that came to mind when i saw the pic. Honestly i know looks can be decieving but it looks like a weapon Warf the clingon would carry on his back in a holster. It looks all cool and stuff and may shoot great but it's just not my cup of tea. Maybe i'm just to old school but no thanks, i'll keep shooting my 04 Liberty.



> Jbird I would like to have one just to wind trot lines on when I'm not using them.


Now thats funny!:becky:


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## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

Yea thats not a split limb its just a slot cut out for the track to run in. I for one am going to have "Crackers" start building mine in the spring!


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## Frank/PA (Feb 20, 2003)

Ouch.......Daniel Boone, how do you really feel. I do not think it is any different then the tech riser design from Hoyt as far as it looks......I do not understand some of the reactions..........looks like innovation to me.......I am excited to get one in my hands.:wink:


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

mq32hunter said:


> You gotta give it to bowtech, they are comming up with new things. You look at some of the other companies and nothing changes. Besides minor things, they stay the same.


Come on now, Mathews puts harmonic dampeners in different places every year!!


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

NCBuckNBass said:


> The only way that thing is going to reach those speeds is in a terminal velocity freefall from being dropped out of a plane.


I'll supply the bow if you jump with it.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Looks like a Whisper Creek, sort of.

If the pivot on the brace has any hysterisis, you will get lateral limb tip travel. I hope it is a tight pivot system. The pivot arm is so long it looks problematic if not well designed.


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## tradman-okc (Oct 2, 2005)

I for one will hold my opinion till it is in my hand... The picture just doesnt interest me at this point...


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## fultontx (Apr 28, 2004)

500 fps said:


> I'll supply the bow if you jump with it.


Heh, you just made me spit my coffee  That there was funny :lol:


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## bowtech dually (Mar 10, 2003)

Just talked with Bowtech and Nov 1st is the date they will release specs for the 2007 line. Just 2 weeks away.

NCBuck&Bass I noticed it said Elite prostaff on your signature, aren't all 7 owners of Elite bows on the prostaff.
BD


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

The new and unusual has always interested me. The Uni-Star, Delta V, Force-Mutiplier. I can't wait to fire one, and I am betting with Bowtechs track record a lot of people will  after shooting one. Bowtech has never been known for being conservative or playing it safe. That's what I like about them

An older gentleman who has been out of archery for several years came by while me and a friend were shooting a Switchback and Tribute respectively. He was shocked at the looks of them. He said: Those don't even look like bows.

It is what you get used to


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> Looks like a Whisper Creek, sort of.
> 
> If the pivot on the brace has any hysterisis, you will get lateral limb tip travel. I hope it is a tight pivot system. The pivot arm is so long it looks problematic if not well designed.



This bow still has a limb pocket and still has the short working section of the limb as compared to the full working length of the limbs on the Guardian.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Tax Lawyer said:


> Could We Get Some Specs.....please?????


I'm with you I can't wait to hear some specs

Firing one would be very nice also


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*oh?*



bowtech dually said:


> Just talked with Bowtech and Nov 1st is the date they will release specs for the 2007 line. Just 2 weeks away.
> 
> NCBuck&Bass I noticed it said Elite prostaff on your signature, aren't all 7 owners of Elite bows on the prostaff.
> BD


:grouphug:


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## JRF20 (Jul 14, 2006)

*Ugly?*

I'll admit that at first glance, I was turned off by the looks of it. But after looking at it a couple times, I actually think it looks pretty sweet.


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Nov 1st*

So will the bows be in the Pro shops soon after?


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

*yep, it was funny................*



bowtech dually said:


> NCBuck&Bass I noticed it said Elite prostaff on your signature, aren't all 7 owners of Elite bows on the prostaff.
> BD


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## fultontx (Apr 28, 2004)

I wonder if Bowtech will upgrade the Allegiance/Tribute with the new cams?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I think that the reason they ran the ad in Bullrider is that you can remove the limbs and you have one of those cattle prods with 10,000 volts on the ends of the forks! 

:secret:


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## cujrh10 (Feb 26, 2006)

Msrp?


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## fultontx (Apr 28, 2004)

*This is crazy*

I can't believe all the posts on this thread in such a short time  Heck, look at all the peeps viewing right now :jeez: I may hafta take my laptop to work with me today just to follow all of the festivities and catfights :lol: :cat:


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

fultontx said:


> I wonder if Bowtech will upgrade the Allegiance/Tribute with the new cams?


I was wondering the same thing.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

We want specs!

We want specs!

We want specs!


 :darkbeer:


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

fultontx said:


> I wonder if Bowtech will upgrade the Allegiance/Tribute with the new cams?


I bet you the cams are designed specifically to the new limb design.


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

33.75" ATA, 7 1/8" brace........321-329. 4.2# mass weight.


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Dang, too short


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Matt / PA said:


> 33.75" ATA, 7 1/8" brace........321-329. 4.2# mass weight.


:thumbs_up 

Thanks for sharing.


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Dang, too short


Hmmmmm would 37.25" ATA, 7.5" brace.....310-318fps be better? :embara:


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## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Hmmmmm would 37.25" ATA, 7.5" brace.....310-318fps be better? :embara:


Could this be for bow # 2?


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## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Hmmmmm would 37.25" ATA, 7.5" brace.....310-318fps be better? :embara:



Perfect!!! whats it called?


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Thanks....*



Matt / PA said:


> 33.75" ATA, 7 1/8" brace........321-329. 4.2# mass weight.


Thanks


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Could this be for bow # 2?


You mean the Commander?:wink:


----------



## ciscokid (Apr 26, 2006)

tradman-okc said:


> I for one will hold my opinion till it is in my hand... The picture just doesnt interest me at this point...



I second that.


----------



## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

Is there going to be A Competition bow for this year or A longer ATA bow?


----------



## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

*350 fps?*

so the 350 fps IBO stuff was just a bunch of bunk?


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

siucowboy said:


> so the 350 fps IBO stuff was just a bunch of bunk?


I believe that will be bow #2.


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## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

> I wonder if Bowtech will upgrade the Allegiance/Tribute with the new cams?


They will have there own modified binary with the cable terminations centered and tracked to the middle................................

eleminating cam lean:darkbeer:


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## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

Rack-Attack said:


> They will have there own modified binary with the cable terminations centered and tracked to the middle................................
> 
> eleminating cam lean:darkbeer:



Only if they see another company do it first!


----------



## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

Nope don't think its ugly it is different, and I'll have to try it this year to see if I like it. But I've like the bows in the past so I'm sure she'll shoot good.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Originally Posted by siucowboy
> so the 350 fps IBO stuff was just a bunch of bunk?





> I believe that will be bow #2.




If you guys know of a 350fps model you know more than I do.:wink:


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## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Hmmmmm would 37.25" ATA, 7.5" brace.....310-318fps be better? :embara:


YES YES YES!!!

Are the limb angles and such the same???


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

I have to say, I am no big Bowtechie, but everyone that I talked to that either lives in "Bowtech land" or jut got back from the University mentioned NOTHING of a 350 fps bow. 

I do like this bow, a lil "wierd looking to me, but am quite interested the what I have heard about the commander :tongue:


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## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

> YES YES YES!!!
> 
> Are the limb angles and such the same???


YES.this new system will allow long a-a bows to have the same limb angle


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> YES YES YES!!!
> 
> Are the limb angles and such the same???


Similar design to the Guardian......

These are the 2 bows using this new technology. I can explain the benefits and design later when I get back from lunch. (If anyone is interested):tongue:


----------



## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I believe that will be bow #2.




Someone else dais bow #2 is: 37.25" ATA, 7.5" brace.....310-318fps be better


----------



## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Will either one of them come in 31" draw?

Thanks,

Ron


----------



## ohio moose (Feb 1, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Similar design to the Guardian......
> 
> These are the 2 bows using this new technology. I can explain the benefits and design later when I get back from lunch. (If anyone is interested):tongue:


Explain away Mr. Matt


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Will either one of them come in 31" draw?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron


Guardian = 25-30" draw lengths

Commander = 27-32" draw lengths


----------



## alain (Dec 10, 2003)

Matt / PA said:


> Similar design to the Guardian......
> 
> These are the 2 bows using this new technology. I can explain the benefits and design later when I get back from lunch. (If anyone is interested):tongue:



Go ahead Matt i am interest.

Thanks!


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Similar design to the Guardian......
> 
> These are the 2 bows using this new technology. I can explain the benefits and design later when I get back from lunch. (If anyone is interested):tongue:



Well duh!!!
Enjoy your lunch and we will be waiting!!!


----------



## Josh Michaelis (Sep 16, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Similar design to the Guardian......
> 
> These are the 2 bows using this new technology. I can explain the benefits and design later when I get back from lunch. (If anyone is interested):tongue:



I am I am!!!!!

Just knowing exactly where and how it pivots would explain a lot to me, I could probly come up with the benefits from there


----------



## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

I think that I see A Commander in my future.:darkbeer:


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Guardian = 25-30" draw lengths
> 
> Commander = 27-32" draw lengths


A lot of people will be very excited to see that 32" draw, man bowtech is taking care of everything this year.


----------



## BogeyMan (Feb 11, 2004)

Matt turn that green light off and go eat lunch.:wink:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

There's much more to the design than this.......I'll elaborate later, but here's one of the benefits in a nutshell. (well my long winded nutshell anyway)

Normal conventional risers anchor the pockets at the end of the riser so for a bow to have acceptable brace height measurements with extreme parallel limb angles the riser must be significantly reflexed……….
We all know reflexed risers are inherently more susceptible and critical to form and torque. This new Center Pivot design positions the pivot point BEHIND the grip making this a deflexed riser bow and will carry those attributes. Deflexed risers are all but non-existant in hunting model bows due to slow speeds and ATA lengths. The Center Pivot design turns that long stable riser design into a an even more inherently accurate deflexed package while maintaining balance for its overall length. 
In other words it turns what amounts to a target platform into high performance hunting and 3D/ hunting models taking advantage of the benefits of both designs. The first deflexed riser “speed bow”. Parallel limb high performance with the built in forgiveness of a deflexed riser target bow. 

I'll explain more later about the other attributes and benefits of the system. I'm hungry.:wink:


----------



## bigrackHack (Jun 11, 2004)

fultontx said:


> I can't believe all the posts on this thread in such a short time


True. This thread is almost up to half the views of Hoyt's new product thread.

I'm trying reeeaal hard to like the thing. But it doesn't turn my crank just yet.... 

It's like a train wreck.....you can't help but stare. :jeez:


----------



## 323 (Feb 26, 2006)

I for one think it is a pretty cool looking bow. But if what some people ae saying it will only be 330-335 F.P.S bow then what is the point? My current bow an 06 Allegiance is getting 319 F.P.S. So I guess I would be better off just to buy another 07 Allegiance right? Then again if they offered a left handed bow right now, I would probably buy one. But it would be in a way a waste because I won't be able to shoot until I get back from the big sandbox next year. I can't say when I will be back, but here is a general idea the 08 bowtech's will be out in less than 3 months when I get back. We are still trying to come up with a good plan to present to our CSM to allow us to shoot bows here at the Camp we are on. I can't say but here is a general idea where we are at 15 minutes from baghdad. He says if we come up with a good plan, then he will bless off on it. Well time to go everyone here have a "NICE ARMY DAY ARMY STRONG!"


----------



## PREZ (Dec 17, 2005)

There is a picture of a new bow called The Guardian. It is posted on Newjerseyhunter.com under the heading of 2007 Bowtech. Check it out pretty wild looking.

Prez.


----------



## mo_bowhunter (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks PREZ.:darkbeer: :darkbeer:


----------



## Sean Jackson (Oct 17, 2006)

PREZ said:


> There is a picture of a new bow called The Guardian. It is posted on Newjerseyhunter.com under the heading of 2007 Bowtech. Check it out pretty wild looking.
> 
> Prez.



It's here also. . .

Check out page 2 of this thread


----------



## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

Daniel BOOM said:


> Holy hell that thing is hidious.



I agree DB. I hope they can do better than that. :killpain:


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> There's much more to the design than this.......I'll elaborate later, but here's one of the benefits in a nutshell. (well my long winded nutshell anyway)
> 
> Normal conventional risers anchor the pockets at the end of the riser so for a bow to have acceptable brace height measurements with extreme parallel limb angles the riser must be significantly reflexed……….
> We all know reflexed risers are inherently more susceptible and critical to form and torque. This new Center Pivot design positions the pivot point BEHIND the grip making this a deflexed riser bow and will carry those attributes. Deflexed risers are all but non-existant in hunting model bows due to slow speeds and ATA lengths. The Center Pivot design turns that long stable riser design into a an even more inherently accurate deflexed package while maintaining balance for its overall length.
> ...


So, if the rear "fork" is the "pivot point" why the need for all the other stuff in front of it. Is deflex/reflex determined by pivot point or anchor point. Conventionally the pivot and anchor has been so close together that it is easy to determine the benefits or detriments to reflex and deflex.

When I first looked at it it looks to me very much like the new PSE...only with an extended limb and anchor point. Minus the limb pockets and all. 

How do you adjust draw weight? Center? The limb end appears to be "anchored". 

At one time all compounds were ugly, same with trucks, cars and girlfriends. They just grow on you.:wink:


----------



## Lazlo Hollyfeld (Sep 27, 2006)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Those limb struts should help keep shooters from being hurt when a limb fails. Way to go BowTech; Keep those inovative safety features coming!


hater. pure and simple.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Is deflex/reflex determined by pivot point or anchor point.


It's determined by the pivot point.

The limb is still being used below the pivot point just in a different manner than has been seen before.
The limb behaves differently as well......picture this: normal bow limbs attach in two places.....The pocket, and the axle. This method of attachment creates a spring or diving board effect on the limb and the limb tip must carry more overall mass weight. The Center Pivot design attaches in THREE places flexing the limb completely different, similar to an arc. The limb tips now move less overall mass weight, as well as less distance. This 3 point design creates an extremely short amount of overall movement in any direction, which translates into less shock or vibration than even the most extreme of parallel limb designs.


----------



## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

will it have the different speed and smooth mods?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> will it have the different speed and smooth mods?


Not this cam system.
1 speed range that has been posted.


----------



## mo_bowhunter (Jan 18, 2005)

Is this cam going to be used on all bows or just these two?


----------



## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

Will the be at dealers on November 1st? Or is that just when they will annouce the bows?


----------



## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> It's determined by the pivot point.
> 
> The limb is still being used below the pivot point just in a different manner than has been seen before.
> The limb behaves differently as well......picture this: normal bow limbs attach in two places.....The pocket, and the axle. This method of attachment creates a spring or diving board effect on the limb and the limb tip must carry more overall mass weight. The Center Pivot design attaches in THREE places flexing the limb completely different, similar to an arc. The limb tips now move less overall mass weight, as well as less distance. This 3 point design creates an extremely short amount of overall movement in any direction, which translates into less shock or vibration than even the most extreme of parallel limb designs.




Matt, 

I just wanted to say THANKS for sharing all this usefull info you've been posting. You've got me sold already! Sounds to me like a very innovative design concept.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Is this cam going to be used on all bows or just these two?


The new center track cam is only on these 2 models.


----------



## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

Yes second that, Thanks Mike!!
Errr i mean Matt lol


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt,
> 
> I just wanted to say THANKS for sharing all this usefull info you've been posting. You've got me sold already! Sounds to me like a very innovative design concept.


You're welcome! .....and it really is an innovative design. (and we haven't even touched the cam system yet:wink: )

Somewhere along the lines I'll have to condense all this info into one big post that people can reference because I'm guessing some of the explanations so far are going to get lost along the way.
(and nobody has even asked about the rest of the 07' bow line. LOL)


----------



## wihunter402 (Nov 29, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> The Center Pivot design attaches in THREE places flexing the limb completely different, similar to an arc.


So you are saying that Bowtech just put the ARC back in Archery???


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> So you are saying the Bowtech just put the ARC back in Archery???


Guilty as charged.
or probably more correctly:

"Creating a NEW arc in archery"
:wink:


----------



## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

Ok Matt, lets hear about the cam system and the rest of the 07 line, will the Tribute and allegance still be in it? And what upgrades if any are done to thos bows?


Matt / PA said:


> You're welcome! .....and it really is an innovative design. (and we haven't even touched the cam system yet:wink: )
> 
> Somewhere along the lines I'll have to condense all this info into one big post that people can reference because I'm guessing some of the explanations so far are going to get lost along the way.
> (and nobody has even asked about the rest of the 07' bow line. LOL)


----------



## Lazlo Hollyfeld (Sep 27, 2006)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Very, very carefully...................


seriously, your contempt for Bowtech is just annoying.


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

The 2 new bows Guardian and Commander will also not require a bow press to change strings so no new presses needed. 50, 60 and 70lbs no 80s. The Allegiance is lighter there's still a Tribute and the Eq will go 27.5" draw. All the cams have been redesigned to take out limb torque and cam lean.

Camo options are HDgreed HDGrey OBS...........no Max4  

I seen the Striker many moons ago and seen it the first time it was fired...can't wait until ours arrives


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

yes, Matt start spilling some beans :wink: 

I did hear 3 names thrown out in the rumor mill for 07 Bowtechs.........
Commander was one of them, and also that there is a new model that is faster and yet smoother than the Tribute.....

Is it this "Guardian" bow or yet another maybe another model???:tongue:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Man I feel so cheap.......just keep putting out nobody even wants to cuddle. :tongue: LOL

Ok what first?

New cam system since we're on a new model track I guess.....
The center track cam system used on the Guardian and Commander is a first of its kind.It puts the take up and power side on opposing sides of each other and on each side of the string. This rigging equals out the pressure being applied much like a split harness on a dual cam does. 
People have been concerned about "cam lean" or limb twist so Bowtech has addressed these concerns with this design.......cam lean is removed as is side to side string oscillation and torsional forces on the limbs are reduced. 

The cam boasts incredible efficiency levels as well at at IBO specs.... moreso than the conventional Binary cam design which is already exceptionally high. This means that even more energy is being transferred to the arrow and speed retention in the shorter draw lengths and lower poundages is remarkable.


----------



## PatriotDually (Oct 14, 2005)

What is this "Striker" you speak of Mike?? First i have heard of this one.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> yes, Matt start spilling some beans
> 
> I did hear 3 names thrown out in the rumor mill for 07 Bowtechs.........
> Commander was one of them, and also that there is a new model that is faster and yet smoother than the Tribute.....
> ...


LOL, you better go back 2 or 3 pages and catch up.:wink:


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

So will the new cams for the older line of bows switch out with the current cams? Also, can you explain the cams on the two new bows. Are they better, if so why?


----------



## geriggs (Apr 21, 2005)

*what about OG*

will there still be an Old glory? what longer ATA bows will there be besides the commander?

i dont know about a cuddle but i can send you a virtual hug in a non-sexual threatening way.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Lets here about the rest of the 07 line.


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

geriggs said:


> will there still be an Old glory? what longer ATA bows will there be besides the commander?
> 
> i dont know about a cuddle but i can send you a virtual hug in a non-sexual threatening way.


The Commander is your New Old Glory


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> will there still be an Old glory? what longer ATA bows will there be besides the commander?
> 
> i dont know about a cuddle but i can send you a virtual hug in a non-sexual threatening way.


Mike is correct and the Constitution has been totally reworked from end to end.


----------



## FallFever (Mar 8, 2003)

Well now ! I was looking at a used Tribute for sale hear on AT but now I may have to wait and get one with the newer cams !:tongue: 

FF


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Mike is correct and the Constitution has been totally reworked from end to end.


Also the LE cam that was on the EQ and Constitution as also been re-designed. Mods for last years LE cams will not interchange with the 07 cam but this is only on small cam. The Allegiance, Tribute and TomCat will use the same mods as last year and the 2 new models will have their own


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Mike is correct and the Constitution has been totally reworked from end to end.


Reworked, how so??


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

No more OG?!?!  I was planning on picking up an 07 OG for 3D next year!

But, If the new Commander is any better? I can deal with the looks?


But how about some info on the Constitution revamp? and specs on that? Maybe I will stay with a Constitution for 3D?


Thanks,

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

NO MAX-4!!!!!!!!! Man my tribute is never gonna leave my side


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> But how about some info on the Constitution revamp? and specs on that? Maybe I will stay with a Constitution for 3D?


Along with what Mike said about the cams:
It has a new better looking riser and weighs less. New grip area and better balance.

41" ata, 8 1/4" brace, 27-30.5" draw lengths, 4.2#, 312-320fps


----------



## Sean Jackson (Oct 17, 2006)

Soooooo.....

What is the fastest of the lineup, Allegiance???, same 7" brace height??? Any faster???


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I Must be drawing a disconnect

On one hand the radical new design is said to have been done to create a different set of characteristics on the limbs MOST of relating to noise and vibration , for which practically was a non issue to begin with. Another benefit is a deflex riser. However the brace is still around 7. While a well balanced bow is excellent for forgiveness and accuracy at the end of the day it is what it is 7" … In my book an 8" reflex is just as potentially forgiving then a 7" deflex especially if the bow is balanced out nicely

Now The "new" Cam.. I have to say if it is as I have it pictured in my head that is very cool and seem to just about basically eliminate problems or as I would more accurately call them "quirks" associated with many cam designs

So The question still is .. Why the extensive engineering and more hardware ( and arguably higher cost??) for a few more decibels and a tad less buzz on a bow line that was already known for a lack of those problematic attributes

I think that design has to do with much more then a little less buzz and noise


----------



## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

Mike and Matt, do the cams on the Guardian and Commander have the same feel as last years Binary's. It appears that the drawstop peg is not used on this cam.


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

centerx said:


> I Must be drawing a disconnect
> 
> On one hand the radical new design is said to have been done to create a different set of characteristics on the limbs MOST of relating to noise and vibration , for which practically was a non issue to begin with. Another benefit is a deflex riser. However the brace is still around 7. While a well balanced bow is excellent for forgiveness and accuracy at the end of the day it is what it is 7" … In my book an 8" reflex is just as potentially forgiving then a 7" deflex especially if the bow is balanced out nicely
> 
> ...


This is a bow that your just going to have to shoot because it's just hard to explain the whys and what evers. As far as cost it's the same as the Constitution


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Along with what Mike said about the cams:
> It has a new better looking riser and weighs less. New grip area and better balance.
> 
> 41" ata, 8 1/4" brace, 27-30.5" draw lengths, 4.2#, 312-320fps


:jaw:

THANK YOU! That is all I need to know! I am heading to my dealer right after work! :bolt: 

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

olehemlock said:


> Mike and Matt, do the cams on the Guardian and Commander have the same feel as last years Binary's


Not exactly, if you have shot a Tribute then you have a small idea. Hard to believe there could be some thing smoother


----------



## DanDaMan (Aug 24, 2004)

so are the Guardian and Commander the only two New for 07 bows? 
Dan


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Would it be possible to get a list of everything that is to come, or would it just be easier to wait for it to show up on the website.


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

LastCall said:


> :jaw:
> 
> THANK YOU! That is all I need to know! I am heading to my dealer right after work! :bolt:
> 
> :cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:



Before I go! Any new "target colors" available this year? Or are they staying with the same colors as last year?

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 5, 2005)

PatriotDually said:


> What is this "Striker" you speak of Mike?? First i have heard of this one.


I'm curious also?


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> I'm curious also?


Its the crossbow that is comming out from bowtech.


----------



## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

If I understand correctly, there will be fast and smooth mods for the Guardian and Commander.


----------



## ciscokid (Apr 26, 2006)

Correct me if i am wrong but isn't MAX-4 a pattern for duck hunting? IMO 

I agree though, it does look good especially if its different than everybody else's... LOL

Yeah. What is the status of the target bows? New colors?

I am not sure what to buy now. Target or hunting.


----------



## marforme (May 30, 2006)

Matt/PA,

Thanks for all your explanations, that ugly bow is starting to look sweeter all the time. Well, it was ugly at first, but the more I look at it the less ugly it gets. Can't wait to give it a try. Also, someone else asked when it would hit dealers and I never saw a reply. Are there any concrete dates in which they will start to ship?


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

*This is a bow that your just going to have to shoot because it's just hard to explain the whys and what evers. As far as cost it's the same as the Constitution*

No Doubt about that .. Suprised the pricing is similar however .. I like odd especially if it's an x-killer

Nobody ever talked about the limb.. IS that a split limb or a limb with a rectangualr slot in it?? 

That dohicky thing slide up/down in the slot .. If so how is the wear on the limb?? If it gets Wet/Dirty does it have problems similar to cable slides 

Does it get Direct TV and Sirus??:wink:


----------



## bhanks55 (Sep 14, 2005)

*what*

are the specs on all the new bows listed and the "revamped" models. Several are listed but not in one place.

THANKS


----------



## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

*MAX-4 for those of us in the plains*



ciscokid said:


> Correct me if i am wrong but isn't MAX-4 a pattern for duck hunting? IMO
> 
> I agree though, it does look good especially if its different than everybody else's... LOL
> 
> ...



I wear Max4 or any other pattern with lighter colors in it out here in the nebraska sandhills...dark patterns like Mossy Oak and Realtree are worthless...might as well well solid green coveralls.

Too bad Bowtech didn't at least replace Max4 with another lighter pattern...


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

Not that it matters one single bit, but I better not hear anything about those ugly Hoyt TEC risers anymore!


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

Anyone know what string mfg. Bowtech will be using this year?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Scottie said:


> Anyone know what string mfg. Bowtech will be using this year?


 Probably the same as the last two years:wink:


----------



## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

siucowboy said:


> I wear Max4 or any other pattern with lighter colors in it out here in the nebraska sandhills...dark patterns like Mossy Oak and Realtree are worthless...might as well well solid green coveralls.
> 
> Too bad Bowtech didn't at least replace Max4 with another lighter pattern...


Like Deception Brown


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

323 said:


> I for one think it is a pretty cool looking bow. But if what some people ae saying it will only be 330-335 F.P.S bow then what is the point? My current bow an 06 Allegiance is getting 319 F.P.S. So I guess I would be better off just to buy another 07 Allegiance right? Then again if they offered a left handed bow right now, I would probably buy one. But it would be in a way a waste because I won't be able to shoot until I get back from the big sandbox next year. I can't say when I will be back, but here is a general idea the 08 bowtech's will be out in less than 3 months when I get back. We are still trying to come up with a good plan to present to our CSM to allow us to shoot bows here at the Camp we are on. I can't say but here is a general idea where we are at 15 minutes from baghdad. He says if we come up with a good plan, then he will bless off on it. Well time to go everyone here have a "NICE ARMY DAY ARMY STRONG!"


 "But if what some people ae saying it will only be 330-335 F.P.S bow then what is the point? My current bow an 06 Allegiance is getting 319 F.P.S."

LOL, the point would be that your '06 Allegiance is now "old school":wink:


----------



## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

What I have read so far has prompted me to go ahead and put my custom Bowtech Declaration....that I LOVE up for sale in the classifieds.... =) gotta make room for a new Bowtech!


----------



## BowtechAndy (Oct 31, 2003)

I saw pics of the 2 new bows. You should see them at full draw. I can't wait to try one out.
Matt and Mike forgot to mention the other line by bowtech.

THE Diamond line
Black Ice which you guy had heard about.
But there is also "the edge" and the "Cutter". Both have the new binary cams.


----------



## bhanks55 (Sep 14, 2005)

*what*

only a little over 19000 views!!!!!!! and 400+ posts!!!

Nobody is interested in these old junkers. right.....

I've been saving for 3 months now.


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

olehemlock said:


> Like Deception Brown


Or better yet, Fall Grey!

Did you know that you can send your bow to Predator and they will dip it? It's on their website.


----------



## ciscokid (Apr 26, 2006)

*Interesting stats*

If i had a nickle for evey person that viewed this thread i would have almost $900.00


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> You're welcome! .....and it really is an innovative design. (and we haven't even touched the cam system yet:wink: )
> 
> Somewhere along the lines I'll have to condense all this info into one big post that people can reference because I'm guessing some of the explanations so far are going to get lost along the way.
> (and nobody has even asked about the rest of the 07' bow line. LOL)


Matt,

You talk about the forgiveness of the Deflex riser. Do you think that makes up for the smaller brace? In comparison, do you think the Guardian with the 7 1/8" brace will be more forgiving, as it relates to resistance to torque, than the Tribute with the typically more torque resistant 7.5" brace? I like the bow more and more the more I see and hear about it. If it is more forgiving than the Tribute, I would think about adding it, or replacing the Tribute, assuming it is also as quiet and shock free, and has an equally solid back wall.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> You talk about the forgiveness of the Deflex riser. Do you think that makes up for the smaller brace? In comparison, do you think the Guardian with the 7 1/8" brace will be more forgiving, as it relates to resistance to torque, than the Tribute with the typically more torque resistant 7.5" brace? I like the bow more and more the more I see and hear about it. If it is more forgiving than the Tribute, I would think about adding it, or replacing the Tribute, assuming it is also as quiet and shock free, and has an equally solid back wall.


Yes, yes, and moreso on all counts.


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

ciscokid said:


> If i had a nickle for evey person that viewed this thread i would have almost $900.00


And if you had a nickel for every chuckle at that ugly freakin thing you could retire.:tongue:


----------



## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

Scottie said:


> Or better yet, Fall Grey!
> 
> Did you know that you can send your bow to Predator and they will dip it? It's on their website.



Does the original finish have to be removed before they do it? Cause one in a predator pattern would be sweet...

The new Max -1 would look good on a bow as well....though probably not as effective I think as predator.


----------



## bobbyg (Oct 18, 2003)

buckfeverben said:


> What I have read so far has prompted me to go ahead and put my custom Bowtech Declaration....that I LOVE up for sale in the classifieds.... =) gotta make room for a new Bowtech!



Ben, I will e-mail you and Mike when the first ones show up. I should have at least 10 new bows on the 1st with the stryker crossbows soon to follow.


----------



## bobbyg (Oct 18, 2003)

lxshooter said:


> I saw pics of the 2 new bows. You should see them at full draw. I can't wait to try one out.
> Matt and Mike forgot to mention the other line by bowtech.
> 
> THE Diamond line
> ...


Diamonds are not using Binary cams.


----------



## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

bobbyg said:


> Ben, I will e-mail you and Mike when the first ones show up. I should have at least 10 new bows on the 1st with the stryker crossbows soon to follow.



Hey thanks Bobby, I'd appreciate that. Do you take trades? =) And also.....do you have a shooting staff at your shop? If so, I'd love to be a part of your team. You're the best Bowtech dealer I've seen in the State, and I've been to quite a few.


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Silver Dingo said:


> And if you had a nickel for every chuckle at that ugly freakin thing you could retire.:tongue:


Maybe that was funnier with an Aussie accent. Maybe. :darkbeer:


----------



## joeyb (Jan 2, 2003)

siucowboy said:


> Does the original finish have to be removed before they do it? Cause one in a predator pattern would be sweet...
> 
> The new Max -1 would look good on a bow as well....though probably not as effective I think as predator.



I was told by our rep that a new color will be added later, possibly :wink: Max -1.:wink: I made the suggestion to Bowtech at last years ATA show. 

Joey


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

LeesburgGamecoc said:


> Maybe that was funnier with an Aussie accent. Maybe. :darkbeer:


Not as funny as that thing.:wink:


----------



## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

Silver Dingo said:


> Not as funny as that thing.:wink:


We need to leave sleeping dogs lie......lay....something like that.


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Ya gotta feel for gimp and the boyfriends havin to take a deep breath and a large slug of whiskey to jump on and defend that ogre.:wink:


----------



## mathewmartin (Aug 9, 2006)

Silver Dingo said:


> And if you had a nickel for every chuckle at that ugly freakin thing you could retire.:tongue:


I heard you looked in the mirror and broke the bank too. 
I like your signature. That beats shooting your bow brand. Probly faster too.


----------



## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

joeyb said:


> I was told by our rep that a new color will be added later, possibly :wink: Max -1.:wink: I made the suggestion to Bowtech at last years ATA show.
> 
> Joey



You guys make a bow in Max-1 and I'll buy a new one for sure!


----------



## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

any bowtech dealers in here take a MQ1 in on trade ? haha....


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Silver Dingo said:


> Ya gotta feel for gimp and the boyfriends havin to take a deep breath and a large slug of whiskey to jump on and defend that ogre.:wink:


 Well well,, looks like I've officially garnered a WORLD WIDE association with BowTech 





Couldn't be happier about it too:wink:


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

joeyb said:


> I was told by our rep that a new color will be added later, possibly :wink: Max -1.:wink: I made the suggestion to Bowtech at last years ATA show.
> 
> Joey


The reason for no Max4 is exclusive rights to the camo has been bought by some one else. I'm sure by the ATA will hear or see some thing


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

walks with a gi said:


> Well well,, looks like I've officially garnered a WORLD WIDE association with BowTech
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gimp we are running a book down here on you winning next years oscar.:tongue:


----------



## bobbyg (Oct 18, 2003)

Crackers said:


> The reason for no Max4 is exclusive rights to the camo has been bought by some one else. I'm sure by the ATA will hear or see some thing


Bingo, Mike tells it like it is no BS.

Don't Blame Bowtech for no Max-4 Camo, Blame the inventor of it. Its called Greed, Bottom line is if you want the Camo you have to pay and sometimes the price isnt worth it. 

But dont worry they are licensed to use it on the Stryker crossbow, Allready got my order in for them in MAX-4.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Silver Dingo said:


> Gimp we are running a book down here on you winning next years oscar.:tongue:



Cool,,hey see this grip I won??

Maybe the guy thought I might have a good opinion I could share with the WORLD,, on his offering:wink:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Heere's another:wink:


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

This year the grip, next year the Oscar. Your star is on the rise Gimp. Shine up those colts.:tongue:


----------



## BowtechAndy (Oct 31, 2003)

bobbyg said:


> Diamonds are not using Binary cams.


Better look again cause the edge and cutter appear to have the new cams.:wink:


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

lxshooter said:


> Better look again cause the edge and cutter appear to have the new cams.:wink:


New Dual cam....they have split yoke cables


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

lxshooter said:


> Better look again cause the edge and cutter appear to have the new cams.:wink:




I take it...........there are two more bows on the way of going public? :tongue:


----------



## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Since the Old Glory has been axed, do any of the new bows come in the 31-32" draw length to replace it or are we left out in the cold again just like with the other big companies flagship bows?

Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

mdewitt71 said:


> I take it...........there are two more bows on the way of going public? :tongue:


Those 2 are Diamonds


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

Ron Meadows said:


> Since the Old Glory has been axed, do any of the new bows come in the 31-32" draw length to replace it or are we left out in the cold again just like with the other big companies flagship bows?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron


Commander take the place of the OG and it goes to 32" The Constitution now goes to 30.5"


----------



## gmherps (Jul 18, 2005)

I'm not too "hip" with the whole speed thing, but I sure hope they make a bow similar to the 05' Liberty.


----------



## BowtechAndy (Oct 31, 2003)

Crackers said:


> New Dual cam....they have split yoke cables


I knew is wasn't a single cam. the pics aren't that clear if you know what i am talking about.


----------



## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

bobbyg said:


> Ben, I will e-mail you and Mike when the first ones show up. I should have at least 10 new bows on the 1st with the stryker crossbows soon to follow.


Thanks Bob, Can't wait to shoot one. I'll try to christen one in the CT late season!


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*MO Brush*



olehemlock said:


> Like Deception Brown



They have MO Brush. Much lighter than Max4.


----------



## WHAMMYMAN2002 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Someone Please Tell Me!!!!!*

PLEASE TELL ME THAT THEY HAVE A 36 TO 40 INCH BOW WITH A IBO SPEED BETWEEN 320 AND 330. MAN I JUST SOLD MY ALLE. HOPING FOR A LONGER FASTER BOW....  



SOMEONE GIVE THE WHAMMYMAN SOME LOVE!!:embara:


----------



## WHAMMYMAN2002 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Commander Vs Constitution*

So What I'm Gathering From All Of This Is That The Commander Is Actually Slower Than The Constitution. Bummmer.... I Was Hoping For A Faster 37 To 38 In. Bow...........




Chris


----------



## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

Alright, what I wanna know is what the new Allegiance has that'll make want to give up the 2006 I have now for a 2007.

Greg


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

GMorel1916 said:


> Alright, what I wanna know is what the new Allegiance has that'll make want to give up the 2006 I have now for a 2007.
> 
> Greg


Well for one it's now as light as the EQ and I think it will now go a 1/2" longer draw but may of confused that with another but think I'm 99% right


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

Wow!!

I think I started posting on page 2 or 3??

I know what Santa-wife is getting ME for XMAS!!

XMAS is Nov 1st....ain't it??

I think BT was smart in letting this "leak" 2 weeks in advance..

I will place my order tomorrow at noon for a Guardian in RT H/D Grey!!

Next..............:darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer:


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

*Yep, nice bows, but what I wanna see............*

Come of "Lefties" now lemme see them 06 models in the Classifieds :wink:


----------



## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

How about target colors?

Tell me the chrome is back!


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I'd like to have a dollar for everytime I hit "refresh" 


What ARE the colors??:tongue:


----------



## vonottoexperien (Nov 4, 2005)

11 Pages and 21,250 hits  YEEOWSER!


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> What ARE the colors??





> You can have it in any color as long as it is black....


Who said that??


:wink: :wink:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

vonottoexperien said:


> 11 Pages and 21,250 hits  YEEOWSER!




In little more than 24 hours


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

yep, I found myself making excuses to get on a computer at work just to get on here :tongue:


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

*Got my shipment of 2007 Gaurdians today*

These things look like they will shoot at the speed of light....the rigging is a little touchy though.
View attachment 185331


----------



## pacman (Jan 11, 2004)

RE: the Guardian, I think Daniel Boom said it best:



> Holy hell that thing is hidious.


There ain't no amount of lipstick for that pig.


----------



## BowtechAndy (Oct 31, 2003)

NCBuckNBass said:


> These things look like they will shoot at the speed of light....the rigging is a little touchy though.
> View attachment 185331



From one staff shooter to another, I find your smart arse comments VERY unprofessional. Although come from an elite shooter I wouldn't expect anything else.
I would suggest that you take the advise thumpers mom gave him......


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

lxshooter said:


> From one staff shooter to another, I find your smart arse comments VERY unprofessional. Although come from an elite shooter I wouldn't expect anything else.
> I would suggest that you take the advise thumpers mom gave him......



Lighten up Holmes; You beautek guys are waaaay too serious---it's a freaking bow for goodness sakes. No wonder Kevin left, I bet those board meetings were more than a little boring. Read my lips: "IT IS A JOKE" LAUGH!!!!!

P.S.
Yes as you can see it comes in target silver and in a long ATA length:wink:


----------



## jdarcher1 (Jul 10, 2006)

:boxing:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I'm wondering if the Guardian and Commander use 1/2 inch increment modules like the '06 bows? Also, do you need to "press", without a press, the bow to change them?


----------



## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

NCBuckNBass said:


> Lighten up Holmes; You beautek guys are waaaay too serious---it's a freaking bow for goodness sakes. No wonder Kevin left, I bet those board meetings were more than a little boring. Read my lips: "IT IS A JOKE" LAUGH!!!!!
> 
> P.S.
> Yes as you can see it comes in target silver and in a long ATA length:wink:


I know now why your a prostaffer for the one and only kinkos made "BLOWTECH".

Remember there is a difference between a feather and complete annialation! Your cable may mearly be one shot away from utter distruction!


----------



## joeyb (Jan 2, 2003)

bobbyg said:


> Bingo, Mike tells it like it is no BS.
> 
> Don't Blame Bowtech for no Max-4 Camo, Blame the inventor of it. Its called Greed, Bottom line is if you want the Camo you have to pay and sometimes the price isnt worth it.
> 
> But dont worry they are licensed to use it on the Stryker crossbow, Allready got my order in for them in MAX-4.


I was told something in the neighborhood of $50,000  was paid to have the exclusive rights to Max-4. 

Joey


----------



## bowsmith (Sep 17, 2002)

NCBuckNBass, elkreaper, lxshooter - Knock it off.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Can I please go so far as to ask nicely that if you are a Bowtech supporter or even a neutral observer that you don't get caught up in personal attacks regarding the bows or take the "negative" comments personally.
(I'm not talking about criticism about looks or design etc that's healthy for discussion.)
It's so silly and detracts from the intent of the topic at hand and makes it increasingly difficult to pass along information that people might be interested in.

There will always be those that are interested, those that are neutral and those that wish to provide a negative contribution.
No big deal, kill the negative by just skipping right over it with a healthy dose of Bowtech class. 

It's just a bow and the bow will speak for itself in time.

Thanks.


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Didn't I just read somewhere that you claimed to have never been on or bashed BowTech on a BowTech thread:wink:
> 
> Be prepaired for paybacks:wink:



This is not a BowTech thread.....this is an Elite thread....notice the cam ....notice what happens to bow design at Bowtech when Kevins not the in-house genius anymore...and besides I'm just poking good natured fun....not the outrageous, viscious rumor mill that all the anti-Elite crowd posted about Kevin and Co. on every single solitary Elite thread. Oh, and yes paybacks are hell....have you seen a Synergy?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Can I please go so far as to ask nicely that if you are a Bowtech supporter or even a neutral observer that you don't get caught up in personal attacks regarding the bows or take the "negative" comments personally.
(I'm not talking about criticism about looks or design etc that's healthy for discussion.)
It's so silly and detracts from the intent of the topic at hand and makes it increasingly difficult to pass along information that people might be interested in.

There will always be those that are interested, those that are neutral and those that wish to provide a negative contribution.
No big deal, kill the negative by just skipping right over it with a healthy dose of Bowtech class. 

It's just a bow and the bow will speak for itself in time.

Thanks.


----------



## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Have all the grips been changed on the '07's? I sure hope so.


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Yea what else?*

So if the Synergy and the new Bowtech cams look the same?

What will the Envy look like this new 07 Bowtech line????? Commander?


----------



## niteshade (Feb 7, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Can I please go so far as to ask nicely that if you are a Bowtech supporter or even a neutral observer that you don't get caught up in personal attacks regarding the bows or take the "negative" comments personally.
> (I'm not talking about criticism about looks or design etc that's healthy for discussion.)
> It's so silly and detracts from the intent of the topic at hand and makes it increasingly difficult to pass along information that people might be interested in.
> 
> ...


very well said


----------



## parkerbows (Oct 27, 2004)

Jhorne said:


> Have all the grips been changed on the '07's? I sure hope so.


Why?


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> I'm wondering if the Guardian and Commander use 1/2 inch increment modules like the '06 bows? Also, do you need to "press", without a press, the bow to change them?


1/2" increments no press


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Have all the grips been changed on the '07's? I sure hope so.


The grip area as well as the grips........2 piece standard, 1 piece aftermarket option.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Do you know what the target colors are, i wouldnt mind puttin an order in soon.


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

I was looking hard at the Old Glory, but since it was dropped I ordered a Commander
It will be a while I ordered a special color.

No Mossy Oak Obsession for me

Looks like my Tribute will be for sale


----------



## FallFever (Mar 8, 2003)

So how much better is the 07 Tribute over the 06 ? What are the differences ?


FF


----------



## parkerbows (Oct 27, 2004)

I am sure its been brought up. but I can't read all this again. I just noticed that on the arm going to the center of the limb has a dowell pin attching to the limb pocket and the riser. Does the arm move?
if not why the pin on the riser side?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

*Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 46*

OK,, the audience is getting low,,,,,,,,,, time for another picture


----------



## Elk Chaser (Dec 9, 2005)

*Crackers Declaration 5 or ???*

Crackers are you already making the Declaration 5??? or will it be named something else
If your making one I'll take one


----------



## PABowhunt4life (Feb 3, 2005)

Crackers said:


> The reason for no Max4 is exclusive rights to the camo has been bought by some one else. I'm sure by the ATA will hear or see some thing



Hmmmm, I'm wondering if this is the mystery camo that Mathews bows will now be offered in.


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

mq32hunter said:


> Do you know what the target colors are, i wouldnt mind puttin an order in soon.


I'd like to know about target colors too...

Here's a question for Mike or Matt.... 

How about forgiveness? Edge to the Constitution or the Commander?

Speed?? Any guesses as to which will come out faster at ohh, say 27"??

Looks like Hemi's gonna get a new baby for 3D this year, now I just gotta figure out which model to go with...

Commander <-------> Constitution


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

PABowhunt4life said:


> Hmmmm, I'm wondering if this is the mystery camo that Mathews bows will now be offered in.


I don't know but I really like the looks of the realtree AP and APG that the new Martin's are sportin'


----------



## Big Time Hunter (Jun 4, 2005)

*Bows look great*

Thanks for the info Matt and Mike. Guess I will hold out for the next speed demon. Sold my 05 BK thinking a faster one was on the horizon. Maybe BT will hear all of us speed freaks next November and blow our minds.

B T H


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> Crackers are you already making the Declaration 5??? or will it be named something else
> If your making one I'll take one


Crackers will sprinkle some magic Chinchilla dust on the Guardian and you will have a:

Guardian Angel

or at least I know I will!!


----------



## upserman (Oct 13, 2006)

I was told NOV,1 it all comes out....:tongue: 

Bob


----------



## bobbyg (Oct 18, 2003)

lxshooter said:


> I knew is wasn't a single cam. the pics aren't that clear if you know what i am talking about.



The bows you are referring to, were made to compete directly against the Browning Adrenaline for a youth bow. They are Dual Cam with split yokes, with a moveable module that can be adjusted from 18-28 inch draw and the weights are as follow 30-40-50.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Here's an interesting quote I found concerning the new Center Pivot models:
You guys know Len Marsh "Len in Maryland" I assume? If you do then you know what type of guy Len is and the pains he goes through in evaluating equipment. (He got quite a few votes for one of the 5 best professional bow TECHS in the country in that topic)

Anyway here's a quote relating to Len and the new Center Pivot bows:



> Well, I can tell you, Len in Maryland has tried every bow that's come out for several years.... but he's always gone back to his trusty Darton Maverick with the recurve limbs. Guess what, he broke down after playing with this thing and has one on order especially for him. Yes, it's smoking fast and sweet to shoot.


----------



## vonottoexperien (Nov 4, 2005)

Any pics of the Commander floating around?


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Here's an interesting quote I found concerning the new Center Pivot models:
> You guys know Len Marsh "Len in Maryland" I assume? If you do then you know what type of guy Len is and the pains he goes through in evaluating equipment. (He got quite a few votes for one of the 5 best professional bow TECHS in the country in that topic)
> 
> Anyway here's a quote relating to Len and the new Center Pivot bows:


That is interesting. Len knows his stuff, as evidenced by his posting on this and another board. I am heading through Baltimore this afternoon, so I think I wll stop by and meet Len and get his thoughts on the new bow. I've been intending to stop by and say hello anyway.


----------



## GMorel1916 (May 12, 2006)

What about lefties? Will they come out the same time as the right handed models?

Greg


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> That is interesting. Len knows his stuff, as evidenced by his posting on this and another board. I am heading through Baltimore this afternoon, so I think I wll stop by and meet Len and get his thoughts on the new bow. I've been intending to stop by and say hello anyway.


Do yourself a favor and do stop at Macrotech.......hope you have a couple hours to kill. :wink:


----------



## Trinity Archery (Nov 8, 2005)

I read about a new youth bow? Can you give a little description of this bow? Xmas is coming you know....


----------



## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

Matt: Is the Guardian use a Split Limb Design the whole length of the limbs? I took a closer look at the picture; and it looks to me like they are continuous split limbs, or they could be solid to the pivot point and then split there on up. How do you compress the limbs enough to yield working on taking the string off? This is rather interesting....


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> 33.75" ATA, 7 1/8" brace........321-329. 4.2# mass weight.


That is good :thumbs_up 

I was hoping for something faster though:sad:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt: Is the Guardian use a Split Limb Design the whole length of the limbs? I took a closer look at the picture; and it looks to me like they are continuous split limbs, or they could be solid to the pivot point and then split there on up. How do you compress the limbs enough to yield working on taking the string off? This is rather interesting....


Its a split limb bow.

As for pressing or lack thereof you might want to address that question to Mike. I haven't had any experience breaking them down and I know he has had hands on in that department.


----------



## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

I agree with ya Techy.I'm satisfied with the design and specs except for the speed.the rumor that was circulating that this bow was shooting at 351 with a 29'' draw had everyone hoping.now I'm being told that that bow will be next year:noidea: well I'm buying one anyway:tongue:


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> The cam boasts incredible efficiency levels as well at at IBO specs.... moreso than the conventional Binary cam design which is already exceptionally high. This means that even more energy is being transferred to the arrow and speed retention in the shorter draw lengths and lower poundages is remarkable.



Awesome!!!!!!!!


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Crackers said:


> Not exactly, if you have shot a Tribute then you have a small idea. Hard to believe there could be some thing smoother


Smoother than a Tribute that is equipped with the Smooth mods?


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

centerx said:


> That dohicky thing slide up/down in the slot .. If so how is the wear on the limb?? If it gets Wet/Dirty does it have problems similar to cable slides



Mike or Matt, can you adress this question. Does the CLP move? and if so does it cause any wear?


----------



## 383bull (Dec 30, 2005)

Mike and Matt thanks for all the great info, I'm really excited about these bows, I too am a speed freak but close to 330 is still smokin, Mike you said no 80 lb versions, is that in the entire lineup?


----------



## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

383bull said:


> Mike you said no 80 lb versions, is that in the entire lineup?


I talked to my dealer about that and he said that BT never messed with certain limb deflections (for 80 pounds) but that it should be possible on special order.


----------



## 383bull (Dec 30, 2005)

Thanks Tax Lawyer, Thats the reason I started shooting Bowtech, the only 80 lb. bow mathews had was the black max, I didn't shoot it very well, when I got my 05 allegiance I was in heaven, 80 lbs, fast smooth and very little recoil, I like the kinetic you can achieve with an 80 lb. bow.


----------



## bobbyg (Oct 18, 2003)

Jeff K in IL said:


> Matt: Is the Guardian use a Split Limb Design the whole length of the limbs? I took a closer look at the picture; and it looks to me like they are continuous split limbs, or they could be solid to the pivot point and then split there on up. How do you compress the limbs enough to yield working on taking the string off? This is rather interesting....



The only press you could use as of now would be the X-PRESS for the Guardian or the Commander. But you can work on it without a press.


----------



## C-fused (Mar 30, 2006)

*Any ideas?*

Question for the chosen few that have seen the new bows.
Do any of the holes in the riser allow for the attachment of a two piece quiver?


----------



## dhollis51 (Oct 10, 2006)

*Price*

Do we know the price of the new ones yet or do we have to wait till Nov. 1st???????


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

bobbyg said:


> The only press you could use as of now would be the X-PRESS for the Guardian or the Commander. But you can work on it without a press.



My electric press I have in the basement contacts the bow in the exact same places as the X Press and I don't think I'd use mine or an X Press on the Guardian. If it can be taken down without a press, that's what I'll do.


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> My electric press I have in the basement contacts the bow in the exact same places as the X Press and I don't think I'd use mine or an X Press on the Guardian. If it can be taken down without a press, that's what I'll do.


Sounds like the smart thing to do

I'm interested about the fitment of the 2 pc. quiver also.

Looks like my Old Glory is going to end up being a Commander


----------



## phf (Jul 17, 2006)

*price*

My dealer qouted me yesterday at the guardian at 799 but I am not sure about the commander. Also he said there are some sweet bows in the diamond line coming out this year also. Cant wait to see them and get my guardian.


----------



## Viper69 (Feb 4, 2003)

I dont think it looks too bad. It would have to shoot the 350 FPS and be around 31" axle to axle for me to bite so I will probably just keep my Tribute.


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Target Colors???


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Viper69 said:


> I dont think it looks too bad. It would have to shoot the 350 FPS and be around 31" axle to axle for me to bite so I will probably just keep my Tribute.


My tribute will be my hunting buddy for a while, but the commander will most likely be my target buddy. The specs on it are just too hard to pass up!!


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

bobbyg said:


> The only press you could use as of now would be the X-PRESS for the Guardian or the Commander. But you can work on it without a press.


There is another press and it's the HTM Deluxe.

Target colors are Clear Chrome, Smoke Chrome and Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs

The EQ, Allegiance and Constitution Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Crackers said:


> There is another press and it's the HTM Deluxe.
> 
> Target colors are Clear Chrome, Smoke Chrome and Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs
> 
> The EQ, Allegiance and Constitution Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs.


Hmmmm, im going to have to wait and see what those all look like before i decide. So, all the target limbs will be the smoke flame limbs?


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

mq32hunter said:


> So, all the target limbs will be the smoke flame limbs?


Yep


----------



## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

bobbyg said:


> The only press you could use as of now would be the X-PRESS for the Guardian or the Commander. But you can work on it without a press.


Now the part about using only an X-Press is kind of inconvenient; not everybody wants to go out and spend that kind of money. If you can do everything to the bow without using a press then I guess that is fine...!


----------



## WHAMMYMAN2002 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Question??????*

Is there a bow between 37 to 40 inches long that will shoot 320 or better in the new 2007 bowtech line???????


chris


----------



## bobbyg (Oct 18, 2003)

Crackers said:


> There is another press and it's the HTM Deluxe.
> 
> Target colors are Clear Chrome, Smoke Chrome and Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs
> 
> The EQ, Allegiance and Constitution Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs.



Thanks Mike I forget to mention that press can also be used.


----------



## doefingers (Feb 24, 2004)

*Equalizer*

Would the EQUALIZER still be the fastest bow at 26 1/2 and did they make any changes to it... thanks


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Crackers said:


> There is another press and it's the HTM Deluxe.
> 
> Target colors are Clear Chrome, Smoke Chrome and Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs
> 
> The EQ, Allegiance and Constitution Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs.


So does that mean that the EQ, Allegiance and Constitution are ONLY available in Black Marble??


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

So the *BIG* question is ....

are the new limbs laminated?

Solid and split


I was wondering maybe that was causing the 5 fps drop across the board. :wink: 

:secret:


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

phf said:


> My dealer qouted me yesterday at the guardian at 799 but I am not sure about the commander. Also he said there are some sweet bows in the diamond line coming out this year also. Cant wait to see them and get my guardian.


Hopefully they sell for under/around $700; in the same range as the Tribute.


----------



## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

Well, I think I have to get rid of my Conny now and pick up a Smoke Chrome Commander. 

Anybody want a deal on a great spot bow :wink:


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*camo options?*

Whats the camo options for 07's?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Whats the camo options for 07's?


Mossy Oak Obsession (standard) and Realtree Hardwoods HD and HD Green.


----------



## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

Man I just got to take a peak at the 07 line.Awsome just plane awsome.The kids bows are going to be a big hit.Constitution and Commander 4 me please.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

t8ter said:


> Man I just got to take a peak at the 07 line.Awsome just plane awsome.The kids bows are going to be a big hit.Constitution and Commander 4 me please.


Where did you see them, i want to see them soooooo bad!!!!


----------



## phf (Jul 17, 2006)

Anyone know if you will be able to get 70 pound limbs on an equalizer? This would be my perfect bow now that its available in 27.5 inches. Maybe I will be able to order it with these limbs? 

thanks

PHF


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Yes!*



Matt / PA said:


> Mossy Oak Obsession (standard) and Realtree Hardwoods HD and HD Green.



Yes!

Thanks Matt/PA:wink:


----------



## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

It sounds like the Commander should be a great 3D bow.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Anyone know if you will be able to get 70 pound limbs on an equalizer? This would be my perfect bow now that its available in 27.5 inches. Maybe I will be able to order it with these limbs?
> 
> thanks


Yeah, it's called the Allegiance. :wink: The Allegiance has been slimmed down and now very closely matches the Equalizer in specs and profile. (The weight has been reduced by around 1/2lb on the Allegiance)

Allegiance 33.25",3.8#, 7 1/4" brace height
Equalizer 33.25", 3.7#, 7 1/4" brace height


----------



## phf (Jul 17, 2006)

what kind of speeds can i expect from a 27.5 inch with a 350 grain arrow from an allegiance @ 70 pounds?
thanks
patrick


----------



## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

phf said:


> what kind of speeds can i expect from a 27.5 inch with a 350 grain arrow from an allegiance @ 70 pounds?
> thanks
> patrick


305 minus string stuff so about 290 loaded (for the 07s with speed mods)


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> what kind of speeds can i expect from a 27.5 inch with a 350 grain arrow from an allegiance @ 70 pounds?
> thanks
> patrick


Probably around 303-305ish with the speed mods, and maybe low to mid 290's with the smooth mods? That's off IBO specs so take into account your string load as well.


----------



## jpm_mq2 (May 22, 2004)

How is bowtech able to achieve the rock solid back wall like the allegiance and tribute,and every other bow bowtech has manufactured,without the draw peg in the cam? I don't see this on the 2 new bows they are offering this year. That is a very important aspect about bowtech that i have grown to really appreciate.No other bow manufacturer has been able to achieve the solid back wall without the use of a draw peg.


----------



## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

No more blue chrome?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Say it ain't so......


----------



## cutter10x (Jan 13, 2004)

whoaaaaaa......thats quite ugly.....how long til someone complains about the limb things breaking


----------



## fultontx (Apr 28, 2004)

cutter10x said:


> whoaaaaaa......thats quite ugly.....how long til someone complains about the limb things breaking


Those limbs will break as soon as Ross makes a bow that will shoot over 300fps with a loaded string...... *NEVER* :lol: Ok, maybe you can buy some HCA flyweight arrows :chortle:


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Give it a Chance!!!*

All I can say is I love this time of year! I can't wait to shoot the Guardian myself. I love my Tributes and Allegiance, but I am all for trying something new. Change is all around us. Those of us who see change as a positive will benefit, those who don't just get left behind. Gotta at least give it a chance! :tea: 

Matt, thanks again for your wisdom and I definately look forward to hearing and seeing more about this bow and the others in the BowTech Lineup!

Dave


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Will the Tribute still have same Spec's?*

My question is will the Tribute still have the 7 1/2 Brace Height? Solid limbs, just new cams?

Anything else change other then the cam?


----------



## C-fused (Mar 30, 2006)

*Draw Weights*

Question for Matt/PA.

Are the draw weights for the Guardian and Commander going to be 50,60,and 70# max?

It was probably already posted on this thread but I may have missed it.

There's only 14 pages to look through.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Question for Matt/PA.
> 
> Are the draw weights for the Guardian and Commander going to be 50,60,and 70# max?
> 
> ...


That is correctamundo.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> My question is will the Tribute still have the 7 1/2 Brace Height? Solid limbs, just new cams?
> 
> Anything else change other then the cam?


New 2 piece grip and new grip area, redesigned cam, and draw length extends to 30.5" for 2007.


----------



## BowOgre (Jan 19, 2006)

It was probably already posted, and I missed it. I was just wondering if the speed for the Allegiance stayed the same? Did the draw length change any? What is the sug. retail for the 2 new bows?


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

A little correction on the target color options. The Guardian, Commander and the Constitution are available in Clear chrome, Smoke Chrome (Black Nickle-Black Chrome) and Black Marble. The Allegiance and EQ Black Marble and the Tribute camo options only.

The draw stops on the Guardian and Commander are in the mods If you want 80# then it's a Tribute...NO...80lb Allegiance


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

I wish i could see the colors right now, i want to put my order in for the commander but i want to see colors first.


----------



## Riverghost (Oct 11, 2004)

What are the diffeance between the Guardian and Commander? 
Ata and what else


----------



## PeterM (Jun 24, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> New 2 piece grip and new grip area, redesigned cam, and draw length extends to 30.5" for 2007.


Unreal, I love my 06 Tribute but needed just a little more draw length, in 07 looks like I like my BowTech even more!


----------



## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

My Commander is ordered


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

dzingale said:


> My Commander is ordered


Mine too!! :darkbeer:


----------



## Nukem (Sep 11, 2006)

*07 Old Glory?*

:exercise: Is the Old Glory still available? If so was it changed??


----------



## jzc (Sep 27, 2006)

i sure it has been posted already but could someone tell me the specs on the commander? and what does it look like?


----------



## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

The Commander is taking the place of the Old Glory.


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Nukem said:


> :exercise: Is the Old Glory still available? If so was it changed??


Commander will replace the OG...


----------



## jzc (Sep 27, 2006)

are the spec the same as the old glory???????????


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

jzc said:


> are the spec the same as the old glory???????????


37.25 ata and 7.5 bh No not the same


----------



## jzc (Sep 27, 2006)

thanks


----------



## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

Hmmm some tough choices this year


----------



## Nukem (Sep 11, 2006)

*Thanks for Old Glory info*

Thanks for the info on the Old Glory... Does anyone have a used 06 OG for sale (Cheap) :dance: now that the "New" bows are coming out???


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Hemingway said:


> Mine too!! :darkbeer:


Mine Three


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

Nukem said:


> Thanks for the info on the Old Glory... Does anyone have a used 06 OG for sale (Cheap) :dance: now that the "New" bows are coming out???


*Well it ain't cheap cause it's special*


----------



## Nukem (Sep 11, 2006)

*Beautiful Bow*

That is one nice looking bow Crackers... Do you have any OGs that may not be "That" special to take out to the bear stand?


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

Nukem said:


> That is one nice looking bow Crackers... Do you have any OGs that may not be "That" special to take out to the bear stand?


I would have to check the parts been LOL


----------



## Mizzoukispot (Feb 4, 2006)

It looks like "brown" just bought my 05 allegiance, fully loaded, with 8 arrows and case for 800 bucks.....They seem to have lost my bow shipping it back from out west this year. 
What to do.....I may just get one of crackers "special, special" set ups.....they do look nice, and after the great work he did on my 06 ultratec....


----------



## CraigK (Oct 21, 2006)

Matt / PA said:


> New 2 piece grip and new grip area, redesigned cam, and draw length extends to 30.5" for 2007.


Will it be possible to put new 07 cams on the 06 tribute and get the 30.5" draw?


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

CraigK said:


> Will it be possible to put new 07 cams on the 06 tribute and get the 30.5" draw?


No


----------



## doefingers (Feb 24, 2004)

*equalizer*

Someone please tell me if there are any changes to equalizer is it still fastest bow at 26 1/2'' , I want to get one ''crackerized''....


----------



## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

I'm pretty sure the Equalizer is pretty much unchanged. There may be changes to the limb pockets. Speed will be the same as last year. Fastest short draw length bow.


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> Probably the same as the last two years:wink:



I shot an 05 Old Glory and I thought for some reason that they used VT. I did not even realize they made their own. Must be pretty good 'cuz I never any read complaints on their stock strings.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Scottie said:


> I shot an 05 Old Glory and I thought for some reason that they used VT. I did not even realize they made their own. Must be pretty good 'cuz I never any read complaints on their stock strings.


 I haven't read any complaints on serving wear with the Binary cam either since they came out in '05.

The new '07's should be a great bow with these upgrades!


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

I stopped in by a dealer last week and we had a discussion on the limb problems that they personally encountered and although it was not many/bow sold, I still get cautious about it. She said the new design on the Commander was suppose to elimate cam twist (which is no biggy to me anyway) but also that they did something different with either the limb mfg. process or material (can't remember exactly) that was going to virtually eliminate the limb cracking instances. She also said that this info would not be released until the show in January.

Anyone know anything about this??


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I have an idea, but it would be speculation


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> I have an idea, but it would be speculation



Go ahead, I promise not to take it as Gospel.


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Is there any truth to the rumor about bowtech using Max-1 camo this year?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Scottie said:


> Go ahead, I promise not to take it as Gospel.



I think anyone can find it if they do a little reading.


----------



## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

*could i modify an*

06 to 07 tribute.......think the grips & cams will interchange.
In relation to grip area....Is it narrower or what?


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Sfd_324 said:


> 06 to 07 tribute.......think the grips & cams will interchange.
> In relation to grip area....Is it narrower or what?


I was told that the cams can not be changed from 06 cams to 07 cams and the grip area was redisigned. The grip from an 06 should not fit on an 07 (he didnt think).


----------



## Danny279 (Mar 19, 2006)

mq32hunter said:


> I was told that the cams can not be changed from 06 cams to 07 cams and the grip area was redisigned. The grip from an 06 should not fit on an 07 (he didnt think).



That would make it too easy. No reason to let someone upgrade and save a little money when you can "make" the customer buy a new bow to get the newest thing. But why not?.......(and correct me if I'm wrong) Everyone in archery is rich...... right?


----------



## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

If ya got a link or a thread about it, please PM me!:thumb:

Also... anyone know the scoop on the Max-1 camo option? That would be AWESOME! I saw a Hoyt V-tech in Max-1 in a magazine and it was sweet!!!

-ZA



walks with a gi said:


> I think anyone can find it if they do a little reading.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Danny279 said:


> That would make it too easy. No reason to let someone upgrade and save a little money when you can "make" the customer buy a new bow to get the newest thing. But why not?.......(and correct me if I'm wrong) Everyone in archery is rich...... right?


 It might be such a thing as limb preload or string and cable requirements that won't allow you to swap them out. Use the resale option and put it on E-Bay:wink:


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Danny279 said:


> That would make it too easy. No reason to let someone upgrade and save a little money when you can "make" the customer buy a new bow to get the newest thing. But why not?.......(and correct me if I'm wrong) Everyone in archery is rich...... right?


Come on man, what do you really expect them to do?!?! Offer the latest cam designs as an upgrade every year?? They wouldn't sell too many new bows if they did that would they... It is a business after all...


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

ZA206 said:


> Also... anyone know the scoop on the Max-1 camo option? That would be AWESOME! I saw a Hoyt V-tech in Max-1 in a magazine and it was sweet!!!
> 
> -ZA


No one knows whether the Max-1 is going to be offered.


----------



## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

Hemingway said:


> Come on man, what do you really expect them to do?!?! Offer the latest cam designs as an upgrade every year??...



No not at all....but if the limbs are the same with just a different cam to correct the cam lean they had, why shouldn't i be able to just buy a set of cams or cam & strings if they are different lenghts. 

As far as grip area......If you take off the original grip & you can bolt on a set of aftermarket side plates, then why wouldn't the 07 plates work....... I just don't see them making a new riser just to accomodate grips/grip area.

If risers are different or limb angles are different then i can see purchasing a new bow but if nothing is different than "grip area" or "cams to correct cam lean" then i see nothing wrong with being able to buy the new cams. Plenty of people will buy the 07 but why make the people with the 06's sell their whole bow just to get that minor change 

I'm not bashing....I was just wandering if it was gonna be possible.


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

*06 and 07 cams/ strings*

Did I miss someone saying they *won't interchange*?

I thought Crackers answered someone in an earlier post stating they would .......


----------



## Danny279 (Mar 19, 2006)

Hemingway said:


> Come on man, what do you really expect them to do?!?! Offer the latest cam designs as an upgrade every year?? They wouldn't sell too many new bows if they did that would they... It is a business after all...



I was half kidding when I wrote that. I love my Tribute and don't see a need to upgrade. But I do agree with Sfd_324, why not make an upgrade for an 06 Bowtech (if possible), especially if there is an improved design. Not everyone can afford a new bow every year so an upgrade would be profitable as well for Bowtech. Just a thought.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Ok,
If anyone doesn't think these look cool........well, you're just lying. :wink: 

Drumroll..........................(This should get the thread going again)


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Dude you just dug the ugly pit a bit deeper.ukey:


----------



## GolfinHunter (Aug 15, 2006)

Matt / PA said:


> Ok,
> If anyone doesn't think these look cool........well, you're just lying. :wink:
> 
> Drumroll..........................(This should get the thread going again)


I am by no means a BT basher, but I have to be honest and say that these things look like something a child would make out of tree limbs, clothesline, and old wagon wheels while playing Cowboys and Indians.


----------



## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

Silver Dingo said:


> Dude you just dug the ugly pit a bit deeper.ukey:


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> I am by no means a BT basher, but I have to be honest and say that these things look like something a child would make out of tree limbs, clothesline, and old wagon wheels while playing Cowboys and Indians.



This maybe true....but this bow will make your current bow obsolete.

How's that for toys??

I will be ordering a Guardian probably in November.

There is probably a good reason why there are NO LIMBSAVERS on the limbs = Don't need them.

You cannot dampen that which does not vibrate!!!


----------



## mirage55 (Jan 31, 2005)

*Ugly & Uglier....*

Guardian= Ugly.
Commander= Uglier.

Guardian & Commander= Sloooooowwwww.

What Part Doesn't Bowtech Get?

Btw: When Is This Post Moving To "Manufacturer's Announcements"? 
All These Pics Have Obviously Been Planted By Agents From Bowtech.


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Ok,
> If anyone doesn't think these look cool........well, you're just lying. :wink:
> 
> Drumroll..........................(This should get the thread going again)



With Beer Goggles, their Totally Sweet! But will I still respect myself after I shoot it?


----------



## Bowtech Joe (Aug 24, 2004)

:jaw: 



Wow, I was really undecided when i first saw the "at rest" photos, but now i cant wait to try one out.


----------



## Bow Commander (Aug 19, 2006)

*Ya' might want to shoot it first*

Well I for one am going to SHOOT it before i disregard it. Your bow might win a beauty contest, mine will bring home the meat. If you actually knew why the Guardian and Commander looked the way they do, you'd probably change your mind. They look like that for a reason, sheer shootability stability. Do you think your wife would win a Miss Universe pageant? NO! But ya love her anyways. I dont expect the bow I love to win either.


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Nah, Probably not But i dont go postin pics of her all over the net either.:tongue:


----------



## Bow Commander (Aug 19, 2006)

Thats cuz her MSRP isnt ANYWHERE close to $749.00. 


OOOOOOOhhh just kidding that was low but i couldnt resist. I'm sorry, i love ya man. :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: ukey: :darkbeer:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Another pic showing the design difference between the Center Pivot limb style and a conventional extreme parallel limb design..........This is what I meant when I was referring to the limbs as having an "Arc" affect vs the "diving board" action of conventional limbs.


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Bow Commander said:


> Thats cuz her MSRP isnt ANYWHERE close to $749.00.
> 
> 
> OOOOOOOhhh just kidding that was low but i couldnt resist. I'm sorry, i love ya man. :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: ukey: :darkbeer:


no harm no fould dude but if thats all she costs me I it wouldnt be so bad.:wink:


----------



## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

Matt,
Thanks for posting. I can't wait to shoot it.


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Ok,
> If anyone doesn't think these look cool........well, you're just lying. :wink:
> 
> Drumroll..........................(This should get the thread going again)


Matt, we have more than a few who are dilusional on here, call it lying if you must. :darkbeer: 

Are the Commander and Guardian built on the same riser, or is the forward part of the commander longer?


----------



## camo-timber (Mar 22, 2003)

I still have not seen an answer to what the material is made out of on the pivit/limbs?
Also, whats gonna happen in cold weather or rain? 


camo.......


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

To be perfectly honest side by side with the tribute, how much different do they look. You guys keep saying they are ugly, but i bet you take one shot with one and you will want one. All i keep hearing is these two bows are going to be hunting machines. Look at how the limbs arc, that is too cool!! I am guessing that bowtech will not have too much trouble with limb problems with these. I for one cant wait to get one, im going to hang on to my current tribute and pic up the commander for target. Thanks fot the additional pics Matt.


----------



## Bow Commander (Aug 19, 2006)

The Guardian and Commander have different risers. I believe the Commander is 37 1/2" and the guardian 32". Matt correct me if im wrong.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Silver Dingo said:


> Dude you just dug the ugly pit a bit deeper.ukey:



UGLY?? What's ugly is watching a grown man throw a brand new Mathews bow on the floor in front of lots of people at the ATA show:wink:


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

whats even uglier is wathcin peedee get back on at at dingos request and playin sidekick to gimp.:wink:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Looks like the shelf of the Guardian and Commander is cupped or shaped with a "trough" like the current Hoyt shelf are and not flat like the '06 bows?


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Bow Commander said:


> The Guardian and Commander have different risers. I believe the Commander is 37 1/2" and the guardian 32". Matt correct me if im wrong.


It does look different, but is hard to tell from the pics. The Tribute, Allegiance, and Old Glory were all built on the same riser (just different limb angles), so I thought these might have built these on the same riser.


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Another pic showing the design difference between the Center Pivot limb style and a conventional extreme parallel limb design..........This is what I meant when I was referring to the limbs as having an "Arc" affect vs the "diving board" action of conventional limbs.



Now that's an interesting pic/comparison. I hate to say it, but that water stick is startin' to look pretty good. Commander for 3D next year maybe??


----------



## Bow Commander (Aug 19, 2006)

You and me both Scottie!!!!!!


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Scottie,
Like I said earlier, it's really easy to see now.........very little pre-load, extremely small amount of limb travel and the tip carries much less mass weight. The limb just works differently and it equates to less recoil, shock, and vibration than even an extreme beyond parallel bow like the Tribute.

Combined with the actual cam design which is gonna freak people out and the deflex design and people are starting to see the light.:wink:


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Scottie,
> Like I said earlier, it's really easy to see now.........very little pre-load, extremely small amount of limb travel and the tip carries much less mass weight. The limb just works differently and it equates to less recoil, shock, and vibration than even an extreme beyond parallel bow like the Tribute.
> 
> Combined with the actual cam design which is gonna freak people out and the deflex design and people are starting to see the light.:wink:


Awesome pics Matt... and wow, its easy to see why these things should be quiet... not much movement of the limb tips at draw. Also, glad to finally see a pic of the Commander, makes me glad I ordered one :wink: !!! Now, if you really want to stir people up (especially those who think its ugly) how 'bout a pick of a Commander or Guardian in Smoke Chrome?!?!


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt, do you have a riser length on the commander?


----------



## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

Matt...I think that it's an awesome design.I'm not looking for fashion I'm looking for function.and that's what bowtech looks like they've done:thumb: to bowtech.can't wait until mine comes in


----------



## Bow Commander (Aug 19, 2006)

LeesburgGamecoc said:


> It does look different, but is hard to tell from the pics. The Tribute, Allegiance, and Old Glory were all built on the same riser (just different limb angles), so I thought these might have built these on the same riser.


Those bows are most certainly not built on the same riser.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt, do you have a riser length on the commander?


Sorry I don't have the exact riser specs yet.


----------



## Bow Commander (Aug 19, 2006)

It's either 37" or 37 1/2" i cant remember.


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Tribute*

Matt,

Is the picture of the Tribute at full draw what it actually looks like or did you doctor that picture? If it is real, MAN that is WAAAAYYYYYYYY BEYOND Parallel!!!


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> It's either 37" or 37 1/2" i cant remember


He wanted riser length not ATA length. LOL:wink: 
If I don't know the ATA length I'm in trouble.

 (just funnin')


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt,
> 
> Is the picture of the Tribute at full draw what it actually looks like or did you doctor that picture? If it is real, MAN that is WAAAAYYYYYYYY BEYOND Parallel!!!


That's the real deal.


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Incredible*



Matt / PA said:


> That's the real deal.


I know you a lot of people are asking about the Guardian and Commander, but I would like to know more about the Tribute if you don't mind. What features, besides the extreme parallel limbs does this bow offer that my 06 doesn't have?

Can you share any info on that, PLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSE?:tongue:


----------



## mathewmartin (Aug 9, 2006)

Silver Dingo said:


> Nah, Probably not But i dont go postin pics of her all over the net either.:tongue:


Thank God for that. ukey:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> I know you a lot of people are asking about the Guardian and Commander, but I would like to know more about the Tribute if you don't mind. What features, besides the extreme parallel limbs does this bow offer that my 06 doesn't have?
> 
> Can you share any info on that, PLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSE?


Its basically refinements, cam update, grip and grip area and an increase in available draw length to 30.5"

The Allegiance got more of the overhaul.

Just wait until you guys pry the picture of the all new Constitution out of me. LOL:wink:


----------



## Sfd_324 (Jul 22, 2003)

BowTech Dave said:


> I know you a lot of people are asking about the Guardian and Commander, but I would like to know more about the Tribute if you don't mind. What features, besides the extreme parallel limbs does this bow offer that my 06 doesn't have?
> 
> Can you share any info on that, PLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSE?:tongue:





> Quote: Post # 536
> My question is will the Tribute still have the 7 1/2 Brace Height? Solid limbs, just new cams?
> 
> Anything else change other then the cam?
> ...


:thumb:


----------



## FallFever (Mar 8, 2003)

I thought I wanted a Tribute but the more I look at the Guardian (especially at full draw) :wink: the more I think I may get one of them instead.

FF


----------



## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

Come on Matt!!!!!

If you've got Constitution pics PLEASE share!

I'm torn between the Commander, and the new "revamped" Constitution.

I loved my Conny last year. Which one this year for 3D????


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

MikeTN said:


> Come on Matt!!!!!
> 
> If you've got Constitution pics PLEASE share!
> 
> ...



I'll second this! Pics of the new Conny, if you please.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

FallFever said:


> I thought I wanted a Tribute but the more I look at the Guardian (especially at full draw) :wink: the more I think I may get one of them instead.
> 
> FF


From what i have heard, go guardian!!


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Scottie said:


> I'll second this! Pics of the new Conny, if you please.


I wouldnt mind seein it too, can it come out and play!!


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Come on Matt!!!!!
> 
> If you've got Constitution pics PLEASE share!
> 
> ...


Maybe tomorrow.....I'll let everyone soak in the Guardian and Commander pics a while and watch the lightbulbs come on.:wink:


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

Matt / PA

Can you specail order a bow to be 55-65 ILO of 60-70?
I like shooting 60 for 3D, but that's too light for hunting. I shoot 65-70 for hunting, but want one bow for both and 55-65 is my perfect range. Hoyt let's me do it!:wink: 

Also, it's probably been asked already, but do the the new cams still have the mod options of smooth or speed?


----------



## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

Matt,

Any chance that the blue chrome color can be special ordered on the new bows? 

Also were you the Matt at the BT booth at the ATA with a shaved head?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt / PA
> 
> Can you specail order a bow to be 55-65 ILO of 60-70?
> I like shooting 60 for 3D, but that's too light for hunting. I shoot 65-70 for hunting, but want one bow for both and 55-65 is my perfect range. Hoyt let's me do it!
> ...


Doubtful...... and Tribute, Allegiance and Tomkat have the option of both.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt,
> 
> Any chance that the blue chrome color can be special ordered on the new bows?
> 
> Also were you the Matt at the BT booth at the ATA with a shaved head?


I don't think so....and no if he was under 6'3" and completely bald that was my buddy Matt Bressler (also from PA and a hell of a 3D shooter).
I was the much better looking strapping guy writing orders and discussing the bows behind him in the booth.LOL:wink:


----------



## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

That was the guy I was thinking about.

I'm trying to figure out who you were.... I've worked the Bowtech booth the last 5 years and I can't think of another Matt. Oh well. Hopefully see you at the show this year.




Matt / PA said:


> I don't think so....and no if he was under 6'3" and completely bald that was my buddy Matt Bressler (also from PA and a hell of a 3D shooter).
> I was the much better looking strapping guy writing orders and discussing the bows behind him in the booth.LOL:wink:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> That was the guy I was thinking about.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out who you were.... I've worked the Bowtech booth the last 5 years and I can't think of another Matt. Oh well. Hopefully see you at the show this year.


You're kidding right? I've been there for the last 4!?
LOL I know there are lots of us but geez. 6'3 , 260lbs, blonde, short hair. 
Women flocking around............can't miss me.


----------



## MikeTN (Nov 2, 2004)

Ok... you look familiar now.

I'm 6'2 shaved head / goatee about 260. I am generally in the front of the booth at one of the two racks. Go figure.



Matt / PA said:


> You're kidding right? I've been there for the last 4!?
> LOL I know there are lots of us but geez. 6'3 , 260lbs, blonde, short hair.
> Women flocking around............can't miss me.


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Tribute limbs???*



Matt / PA said:


> Another pic showing the design difference between the Center Pivot limb style and a conventional extreme parallel limb design..........This is what I meant when I was referring to the limbs as having an "Arc" affect vs the "diving board" action of conventional limbs.



If I knew my Tribute looked like that when I shot it......I would be scared .

NOT Thats cool. I might have to get the wife to take a pic. LOL!


----------



## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

*Still Waiting on Constitution Pics*

Come on Matt, I didn't sleep last night waiting on the pics.


----------



## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

SCHWEEEEET! :thumb:

-ZA



Matt / PA said:


> Another pic showing the design difference between the Center Pivot limb style and a conventional extreme parallel limb design..........This is what I meant when I was referring to the limbs as having an "Arc" affect vs the "diving board" action of conventional limbs.


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Just wait until you guys pry the picture of the all new Constitution out of me. LOL:wink:


   :ranger:


Come on Matt - Hook us up! Im trying to decide between the Commander and a new Constitution?

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Maybe tomorrow.....I'll let everyone soak in the Guardian and Commander pics a while and watch the lightbulbs come on.:wink:


MUST SEE PICS


----------



## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Matt,

o i hope Bowtech has this center pivot "PATENTED" lock stock and barrel so Kinkos, um i mean Elite, cant make something similiar, not that they would do that.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt, we know your out there...Can we get a pick?


----------



## sigfla (Sep 19, 2006)

This whole thing is getting very annoting now. Just release the bow so I can buy it already. The cat is outta the bag and I am getting annoyed. I have come within a hairs breath of getting a hoyt/mathews b/c of the slow bowtech release. Lets go already so we can shoot the damn bow and buy one.....


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Ya know what im excited about, the commander has a 7.5 brace height and so does my tribute. I bet my custom sts will fit on the commander too, i had made one in black but liked the meanv2 camo so i got one from him. So my black one is just sittin around, i think it will look great on the commander. Not sure if the commander will need it though.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Still Waiting on Constitution Pics
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Come on Matt, I didn't sleep last night waiting on the pics


Listen ya vultures......you're just going to have to wait until I get home. Can a guy get some work done here.:wink: 

(I promise to have a Constitution pic up by 6PM)


----------



## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

sigfla said:


> This whole thing is getting very annoting now. Just release the bow so I can buy it already. The cat is outta the bag and I am getting annoyed. I have come within a hairs breath of getting a hoyt/mathews b/c of the slow bowtech release. Lets go already so we can shoot the damn bow and buy one.....


Slow bowtech release? they have stated an 11/1 release date for months now, also how many models has Mathews released for their 07' line?


----------



## sigfla (Sep 19, 2006)

I was being a somewhat tongue in cheek. I was also venting a bit so don't take me too seriously. All I am looking for from Bowtech in 07 is a 30+ draw. 31 would be nice but 30.5 will do. Ohhh, and around 320 + fps IBO will do nicely also. So whatever model fits I will take it.


----------



## mbklmann (Jun 12, 2005)

For all of those who bash the guardians and the commanders looks..... Are you telling me that if you go and try shooting either one of these and theyre the smoothest, fastest bows you have ever shot and it feels comfortable, you wont buy one becuase it looks weird?


weirdos.:crazy:


----------



## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

mbklmann said:


> For all of those who bash the guardians and the commanders looks..... Are you telling me that if you go and try shooting either one of these and theyre the smoothest, fastest bows you have ever shot and it feels comfortable, you wont buy one becuase it looks weird?
> 
> 
> weirdos.:crazy:


LOL


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'd shoot one if my Pro Shop carried them.

I think it's pretty cool.


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Listen ya vultures......you're just going to have to wait until I get home. Can a guy get some work done here.:wink:
> 
> (I promise to have a Constitution pic up by 6PM)



Okay 6PM - Thats 1Hour 31minutes and 12seconds


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

LastCall said:


> Okay 6PM - Thats 1Hour 31minutes and 12seconds



Now its - 1Hour 30minutes and 42seconds



LOL - Just kidding (But Hurry UP!) :tongue: :wink:


----------



## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

mbklmann said:


> For all of those who bash the guardians and the commanders looks..... Are you telling me that if you go and try shooting either one of these and theyre the smoothest, fastest bows you have ever shot and it feels comfortable, you wont buy one becuase it looks weird?
> 
> 
> weirdos.:crazy:


Lots of people buy Hoyts, and I don't know why they would think these are any uglier ...


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Looks like we've got a countdown going on.. I seen the Constitution pic at the dealer's place today when we went to shoot the league:tongue: 



Shapely!!:wink:


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

HJMinard said:


> Lots of people buy Hoyts, and I don't know why they would think these are any uglier ...


I don't think they're ulgier. In fact, I think one would look real cool hanging next to me 06 Protec!:tongue:


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

1Hour 12minutes and 52seconds


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

If you guys want me to take it to the last second.........keep it up. :wink: :tongue:


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

:wink: 55minutes and 37seconds :tongue:


----------



## smitty72 (Jan 29, 2006)

when will the new catalogs be available called my dealer and he didn't know when


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

14minutes and 47seconds


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Come on Matt - I see you in here! LOL


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Ok........15 minutes 25 seconds and counting. 

Alright you beat it out of me.
Without further delay. 

2007 Bowtech "Constitution"  :RockOn: 
41" ATA , 8 1/4" brace, 312-320fps IBO, 
50-60-70# draw weight, 27-30.5" draw lengths 4.2#


----------



## mathewsk (Mar 17, 2005)

*Now Thats A,*

Good Looking Bow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Man - That is awesome looking!

It looks like I will have another Constitution in my future. But, I will be checking out the Commander too!

Thanks Matt!

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Now we need close ups of the cams and the grips! Come on Matt how long do we have to wait for those?

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Now we need close ups of the cams and the grips! Come on Matt how long do we have to wait for those?


7 days, 15hrs, 30 minutes, 45 seconds.......:zip: :wink:


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

I don't know which one has the sexier curves:

Laura











or the Guardian


----------



## Dave (Dec 14, 2002)

*BowtechArch*

I like Bowtech as much as the next guy but if you can't figure that out you may need to stop shooting for a while.:wink: 

The only problem is I don't think my wife would let me get one of those. So I guess I'll have to settle for a new Bowtech.

Dave:darkbeer:


----------



## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

matt,

well lets see the rest of the lineup already


----------



## tfox (Oct 22, 2002)

definately the red one:tongue:


----------



## Greg / MO (Nov 19, 2003)

> The only problem is I don't think my wife would let me get one of those.


LOL... So true, huh? Problem is... sometimes I've got just as much of a chance getting a new bow as one of those! :wink:

DEFINITELY good-looking... :thumb:


----------



## Greg / MO (Nov 19, 2003)

... and the chick ain't bad, either. :wink: :tongue:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> I don't know which one has the sexier curves


 Listen I'm a Bowtech representative but I've been around Laura at a couple shoots and if your struggling with that one?  

I had to shoot a couple stakes down from her at the PA ASA National at Harrisburg last year......Not sure how I wound up winning that one. :wink: 
Very attractive young lady for sure.

(somebody get off this subject before we ALL get in trouble!)

Back to the bows.


----------



## gmherps (Jul 18, 2005)

very nice bows.


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> I like Bowtech as much as the next guy but if you can't figure that out you may need to stop shooting for a while.



What....honey?....no...no....I'm not on ArcheryTalk....

I'm paying bills....right now....


....The Trash?.....oh yeah....

...ah fellas....I gotta run..............:zip: :zip: :darkbeer: :darkbeer:


----------



## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*Easy for me!*

Easy choice for me. "Laura" is just a little blue box with a ? on it. Not too exciting. Now I do remember what her pics looked like, so I understand what the rest of you are saying.:darkbeer:


----------



## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

matt

how about the 2007 allegiance, tribute, old glory ?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> matt
> 
> how about the 2007 allegiance, tribute, old glory ?


Alright Crash, straight to the corner with the pointy hat for you........670 posts later and you still haven't figured out there is no Old Glory for 07':wink: 

Common man keep up. LOL


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

*Wanna talk about ugly............*

What is funny, the people that think these two bows are ugly either shoot a bow that gets these lil dampners added on all over the bow, more and more each year or they shoot a bow that looks like the riser gets sent thru a shredder.........


----------



## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> Alright Crash, straight to the corner with the pointy hat for you........670 posts later and you still haven't figured out there is no Old Glory for 07':wink:
> 
> Common man keep up. LOL


i guess that means i have a collectors item on my hands, alright

so how about the 07 tribute and allegiance pics?


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Yes, 07 allegiance and tribute would be nice. I want to see what the allegiance looks like after losing some weight this year. I'm still trying to figure out how it lost so much weight, workin out, dieting, im sure it is gonna look great though.


----------



## Bowtech Joe (Aug 24, 2004)

see post #590 of this thread for a pic of the Tribute


----------



## PArcher (Aug 4, 2006)

What about a pic of the Diamond Black Ice? What are the prices on all of the new bows? FILL US IN ALREADY! :wink:


----------



## barcher (Jan 1, 2006)

*Will Bowtech be making a kid's bow anytime soon?*

I haven't heard mention, but I thought I'd ask anyway - so how about it? Will Bowtech be making a kids bow?


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Draw Stop*

Matt,

The Constitution looks nice. How about a draw stop on the Guardian and the Commander, is there one. I went back through the posts but didn't see an answer to that?

Dave


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

BowTech Dave said:


> Matt,
> 
> The Constitution looks nice. How about a draw stop on the Guardian and the Commander, is there one. I went back through the posts but didn't see an answer to that?
> 
> Dave


I thought I read somewhere that the draw stop was incorporated into the draw length module on the Guardian and Commander... I'll see if I can find it...


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Here you go Dave...



Crackers said:


> The draw stops on the Guardian and Commander are in the mods


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> I thought I read somewhere that the draw stop was incorporated into the draw length module on the Guardian and Commander... I'll see if I can find it...



Thats correct, because of the design of the Center Track cam there is no stop peg that contacts the limb face.


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Thanks...*

I would love to know more!


----------



## phf (Jul 17, 2006)

Matt will the new bows still have that super solid backwall as the previous binary cam bows? If i am understanding this correctly there will be no post to contact the limb?

Thanks

Patrick


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Thats correct, from my understanding without playing with it yet the wall is still very solid. I'll get that info for sure for you guys unless Mike (Crackers) wants to chime in because he HAS played with them and could give you an idea of the solidness of the wall.


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Hey, Matt, what about the target grips for '07?? Will the Shrewd come standard on the target bows?? One piece, I presume??


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Hey, Matt, what about the target grips for '07?? Will the Shrewd come standard on the target bows?? One piece, I presume??


2 piece will be standard on all bows as far as I know........1 piece is an option, if the Shrewd 1 piece is one of those options I do not know at this point.


----------



## BradleyP (Dec 7, 2003)

mq32hunter said:


> Yes, 07 allegiance and tribute would be nice. I want to see what the allegiance looks like after losing some weight this year. I'm still trying to figure out how it lost so much weight, workin out, dieting, im sure it is gonna look great though.


It lost weight because I was told its getting the Equalizer riser and of course new cams.... Tribute is the same riser.


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

phf said:


> Matt will the new bows still have that super solid backwall as the previous binary cam bows? If i am understanding this correctly there will be no post to contact the limb?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Patrick


The wall is still firm and the ends of the mods will be the stop. It's more solid then the hoyt cams with pegs but not exactly like last years cams. It may be hard to belive but I have more customers that don't really like that hard wall then I do that like it.


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> It may be hard to belive but I have more customers that don't really like that hard wall then I do that like it.


Yup Crackers.....is it old school that they like to shoot from the "valley"??


Also, do you remember from the 1000's of PM you get one I sent 'ya concerning placing #70 limbs on an '06 EQ riser?



> September 9th, 2006, 11:05 AM
> BowtechArch
> Did You See That? Join Date: May 2005
> Location: Central Ohio
> ...


----------



## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> 2 piece will be standard on all bows as far as I know........1 piece is an option, if the Shrewd 1 piece is one of those options I do not know at this point.



Matt, my rep said 2 pc grip were standard without a 1 pc option! Are you sure about the 1 pc option? I can't stand 2 pc grips!


----------



## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Crackers said:


> The wall is still firm and the ends of the mods will be the stop. It's more solid then the hoyt cams with pegs but not exactly like last years cams. It may be hard to belive but I have more customers that don't really like that hard wall then I do that like it.


That hard wall is one of the things I really like about Bowtechs


----------



## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Jerry/NJ said:


> That hard wall is one of the things I really like about Bowtechs


Same here.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt, my rep said 2 pc grip were standard without a 1 pc option! Are you sure about the 1 pc option? I can't stand 2 pc grips!


I received the opposite info........2 piece standard and the new grip area will accept a 1 piece aftermarket grip sold separately.


----------



## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

*'07 Allegience*

Will the '07 Allegience have the new center track cam then?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Will the '07 Allegience have the new center track cam then?


No.....it will have an upgraded Binary cam.


----------



## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

Thanks for the quick reply Matt; I was going to get an '06 Ally, but then i thought the '07 would have the new cam that eliminates the cam lean and limb torsion. Sounds like thats not the case. Any idea what the improvemants are in the upgraded binary?

Thanks for your time


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Matt/PA,

I can not find it.

So can you tell me how low will the DL's go on the Tribute and Alleginace this year?

Hopefully Bowtech hasnt forgotten about us stubby armed guys.


----------



## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> That hard wall is one of the things I really like about Bowtechs


That is one of the best things about the bows; I will have to shoot the new ones to see if it is acceptable. After shooting the Tribute with the absolute rock solid wall, I think it would be hard to go back to the relative mush you get with most bows on the market.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> So can you tell me how low will the DL's go on the Tribute and Alleginace this year?


26.5-30.5" on both the Tribute and Allegiance.


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Matt / PA said:


> 26.5-30.5" on both the Tribute and Allegiance.


Ok that is still too long for me  

What other hunting bows are they offering in the 25.5-26" range?

What model, specs, etc?

Thanks.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Ok that is still too long for me
> 
> What other hunting bows are they offering in the 25.5-26" range?
> 
> What model, specs, etc?


The new Guardian will go down to 25" (25-30") as well as the Equalizer which will go down to 24" (24-27.5") The Equalizer is a short draw high performance model that closely mirrors the Allegiance in Specs except that it is only available up to 60#


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Matt / PA said:


> The new Guardian will go down to 25" (25-30") as well as the Equalizer which will go down to 24" (24-27.5") The Equalizer is a short draw high performance model that closely mirrors the Allegiance in Specs except that it is only available up to 60#


Will the Equalizer have the new "revamped" Binary system or the new Guardian cam available? 

Both? Either/Or?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Will the Equalizer have the new "revamped" Binary system or the new Guardian cam available?
> 
> Both? Either/Or?


Brad,
The Equalizer has an upgraded binary cam system, and a newly designed grip area. The Center Track cam that is on the Guardian is a separate cam system only available on it and the Commander models.

2 different cam systems unique to each bow and they are not interchangable.


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Matt / PA said:


> Brad,
> The Equalizer has an upgraded binary cam system, and a newly designed grip area. The Center Track cam that is on the Guardian is a separate cam system only available on it and the Commander models.
> 
> 2 different cam systems unique to each bow and they are not interchangable.


One more quick question.

Is the Equalizer a parallel or beyond parallel limb bow?


----------



## mo_bowhunter (Jan 18, 2005)

Brad you can check out the 06 equalizer on bowtech's website...It should give you a pretty good feel for what it will look like in 2007.


----------



## BowOgre (Jan 19, 2006)

Is Bowtech waiting until the 1st to update their website?


----------



## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

BradMc26 said:


> One more quick question.
> 
> Is the Equalizer a parallel or beyond parallel limb bow?


The Equalizer is a parallel limb bow. The pocket angles are not as laid back as the Tribute. The riser geometry is pretty much unchanged from 06.


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

pdq 5oh said:


> The Equalizer is a parallel limb bow. The pocket angles are not as laid back as the Tribute. The riser geometry is pretty much unchanged from 06.



Thanks.


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

Please be in Max-1!

Please!!!!!


----------



## SteveSpag (Dec 20, 2005)

*price?*

Thanks for all the great bowtech info. I can't wait to get a new gaurdian for hunting next year, but Im mot sure if I want a constitution or commander for 3D. Im leaning toward the new constitutions, can I get a few suggestions on a 3D bow and does any one know how much the new constitution is going to sell for.
tnx


----------



## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

Matt, could you elaborate on the upgraded binaries please?!


----------



## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 5, 2005)

sd_archer said:


> Thanks for the quick reply Matt; I was going to get an '06 Ally, but then i thought the '07 would have the new cam that eliminates the cam lean and limb torsion. Sounds like thats not the case. Any idea what the improvemants are in the upgraded binary?
> 
> Thanks for your time


I think it was posted earlier that the 07 binaries had the slave cables moved to opposite sides of the string to help minimize limb twist?:confused2:


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Also Matt, from the pics it looks like the cams on the Constitution are the same as on the Tribute? Are all of the cams the same this year on all of the bows except the Guardian and Commander? Or will the Constitution and Equalizer still use a version of the LE cam?

Will the Constitution have the option of smooth and speed mods this year?


You know we are still going to try and pry all of this out of you before the officiall release!

:cocktail: LastCall :cocktail:


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

*When?*

Matt. 
Any idea when the Commander will be possible to buy in Europe(Norway)?
I was just going to buy an Old Glory, but i think i will wait for the Commander.
Is it any way to make it a 33" DL, or must i just have a longer loop or release?


----------



## txdukklr (Jan 9, 2003)

Crackers said:


> The wall is still firm and the ends of the mods will be the stop. It's more solid then the hoyt cams with pegs but not exactly like last years cams. It may be hard to belive but I have more customers that don't really like that hard wall then I do that like it.



I'd be one! I noticed when i moved over from my mathews was the abrupt stop and wasn't one of the things I loved about the bow.

All the other stuff won out though!


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

Crackers said:


> The wall is still firm and the ends of the mods will be the stop. It's more solid then the hoyt cams with pegs but not exactly like last years cams. It may be hard to belive but I have more customers that don't really like that hard wall then I do that like it.


So these "stops" are basically the same as the "stops" on the modules on the LE cams??


----------



## kravguy (Oct 12, 2006)

Anyone know what colors will be available for the 07 line?


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

kravguy said:


> Anyone know what colors will be available for the 07 line?



The colors were posted a few pages back? I tried to find the exact post but missed it somehow?

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

OK lets see if I can catch up a bit...... This thread has become an official "Monster".



> Thanks for all the great bowtech info. I can't wait to get a new gaurdian for hunting next year, but Im mot sure if I want a constitution or commander for 3D. Im leaning toward the new constitutions, can I get a few suggestions on a 3D bow and does any one know how much the new constitution is going to sell for.
> tnx


To be honest any bow in the line up is a potentially good 3D bow. Lots of great IBO shooters are using an Allegiance to take advantage of the shootability and speed.
The Constitution is obvious for IBO and ASA shooting.
Now the Guardian and Commander make the decision even harder because of great speed combined with the new benefits of the Center Pivot limb design and a deflexed geometry as well as the new Center Track cam system. 
MSRP on the Constitution is $799. (Actual Dealer prices may vary)



> Matt, could you elaborate on the upgraded binaries please?!


The standard Binary cams have been changed to include a new offset slot in the return cable to minimize any residual cam lean. Also the cam has been redesigned to have better balance resulting in less hand shock at the shot.



> Matt.
> Any idea when the Commander will be possible to buy in Europe(Norway)?
> I was just going to buy an Old Glory, but i think i will wait for the Commander.
> Is it any way to make it a 33" DL, or must i just have a longer loop or release?
> Today 01:58 PM


I don't have the foggiest clue when you guys in Norway will see these. 32" is the limit on the Commander so if you need further length and want this bow you will need to somehow alter your loop and release style to get a proper fit AND maintain proper anchor. (WOW 33" huh? )



> Also Matt, from the pics it looks like the cams on the Constitution are the same as on the Tribute? Are all of the cams the same this year on all of the bows except the Guardian and Commander? Or will the Constitution and Equalizer still use a version of the LE cam?
> 
> Will the Constitution have the option of smooth and speed mods this year?


The cam arrangement is similar to last year just upgraded.

The only bows with "Speed Options" are the Allegiance, Tribute, and Tomkat......


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Thanks Matt - U DA Man! Heres one for U - :darkbeer: 

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Thanks Matt - U DA Man! Heres one for U -


Thanks, what do you guys have for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and an Astigmatism 

:wink:


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Try a few of these -:darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: 

LOL! May not help, but you wont care!

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## KELLY (Dec 20, 2002)

I never saw so many useless post on one thread in my life. 19 pages it should be more like 3!


----------



## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

I gotta say....... At first site of the Guardian and the Commander, they had a real ugly look about them. But they do grow on ya especailly after reading what Matt and Crackers had to say about them. I can't wait to shoot them now. Thanx for sharin' all the info Matt and Crackers. We all appreciate it. :thumbs_up


----------



## Greg / MO (Nov 19, 2003)

> I never saw so many useless post on one thread in my life. 19 pages it should be more like 3!


Make that one more... :wink:


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*what*

:bump: :ranger: :jaw: :aniangel:


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*that's right....*



Dave said:


> I like Bowtech as much as the next guy but if you can't figure that out you may need to stop shooting for a while.:wink:
> 
> The only problem is I don't think my wife would let me get one of those. So I guess I'll have to settle for a new Bowtech.
> 
> Dave:darkbeer:


----------



## C-fused (Mar 30, 2006)

*You Too*



KELLY said:


> I never saw so many useless post on one thread in my life. 19 pages it should be more like 3!


And you're the one who read through ALL 19 pages?

Who has less of a life?

 

Lighten up.


----------



## gwmican (Mar 27, 2004)

By the look of the new redesigned Constitution, I think I see one in my near future!:RockOn:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

KELLY said:


> I never saw so many useless post on one thread in my life. 19 pages it should be more like 3!



Lots of people have questions on a design thats very new and very different.


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks Matt
I just have to try to be patient then.
Why don`t you make a bow that has a DL up tp 34"?
Are we to few with 32"+ DL to make a market?


----------



## PABowhntr (Oct 2, 2002)

Thanks for all the info Matt. I cannot wait to see the new lineup and wrap my hands around the new grip. If Len loves them from a technical standpoint then that really says something to me. Now we just have to see how they shoot. What time frame are we looking at for getting the new bows out to dealers?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Thanks Matt
> I just have to try to be patient then.
> Why don`t you make a bow that has a DL up tp 34"?
> Are we to few with 32"+ DL to make a market?


That and sometimes a bow's geometry/design will limit how much draw length you can get out of them. 
You guys with 33" draw lengths are certainly rare indeed. I would venture to guess far less than 1% of all archers?

I would bet the average is closer to 28-28.5"??


----------



## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

KELLY said:


> I never saw so many useless post on one thread in my life. 19 pages it should be more like 3!


why are you wasting your time with it


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Matt / PA said:


> That and sometimes a bow's geometry/design will limit how much draw length you can get out of them.
> You guys with 33" draw lengths are certainly rare indeed. I would venture to guess far less than 1% of all archers?
> 
> I would bet the average is closer to 28-28.5"??


Does that make us freaks or special? 
Can you estimate how much speed you loose or gain with an inch difference in DL with the Commander 70 lbs?


----------



## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

Bump for Kelly.


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

:darkbeer: :cocktail: :banana:


500 fps said:


> Bump for Kelly.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Matt, can you tell us/do you know when the first shipment of the new bows is going out. They get announced on the 1st, just wondering when they will hit the dealers?


----------



## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

mq32hunter said:


> Matt, can you tell us/do you know when the first shipment of the new bows is going out. They get announced on the 1st, just wondering when they will hit the dealers?


I heard the middle of November.

I already ordered mine.....in LH....so I should get mine around February. :wink: Whatever.....it will be worth it.


----------



## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I heard the middle of November.
> 
> I already ordered mine.....in LH....so I should get mine around February. :wink: Whatever.....it will be worth it.


I'll keep you posted on how well mine is shooting until yours arrives!


----------



## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Tax Lawyer said:


> I heard the middle of November.
> 
> I already ordered mine.....in LH....so I should get mine around February. :wink: Whatever.....it will be worth it.


I suspect you'll see one before then. BowTech do not turn their heads on LH shooters. But I AM glad I'm RH. :wink:


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Allegiance*

Matt,

When are we going to see the picture of the Allegiance at rest and full-draw? Just wondering if it is going to be extreme beyond parallel as the Tribute? You can show us can't you?......:wink:


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Matt,
> 
> When are we going to see the picture of the Allegiance at rest and full-draw? Just wondering if it is going to be extreme beyond parallel as the Tribute? You can show us can't you?......


Dave, 
The Allegiance still carries the same 40 degree pocket angle geometry so no it will not be as beyond parallel as the Tribute.
I have a picture somewhere of them (Tribute / Allegiance) side by side, I'll see if I can post it when I get home.


----------



## WGMitch (Feb 15, 2005)

*Where is the picture?*

Did someone get a picture of the new Bowtech? And if so can you tell me which page it's on so I don't have to weed through 19 pages of this thread..?
Thanks


----------



## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Heres one for the BT guys:wink: 
Might as well go for 25 pages!!!!!!:darkbeer: 

Somebody PM me with the IBO rating for these 2 bows!!!! Thanks 

By the time I get back to this thread it should be around 35 pages or so


----------



## Bucket Head (Oct 25, 2006)

WGMitch, You can look on page 15. That shows how the bows look at full draw:thumbs_up


----------



## broay73 (Oct 28, 2005)

*Spec's???*

Any one have all the spec's yet. I think I went through the WHOLE post and did't see them.:embara:


----------



## C-fused (Mar 30, 2006)

broay73 said:


> Any one have all the spec's yet. I think I went through the WHOLE post and did't see them.:embara:


Guardian 33.75" ATA, 7.125" Brace, 321-329 IBO, Draw lengths 25"-30"

Commander 37.25" ATA, 7.5" Brace, 310-318 IBO, Draw lengths 27"-32"


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

BradMc26 said:


> One more quick question.
> 
> Is the Equalizer a parallel or beyond parallel limb bow?



Matt/PA,

Just thought of some new questions about the Equalizer.

With the Binary system. Is the bow any faster this year? Last year it was rated for 302. That is kind of slow by todays standards.

Also does the new Binary come with the "fast" and "smooth" mod choice for the Equalizer?


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

BradMc26 said:


> Matt/PA,
> 
> Just thought of some new questions about the Equalizer.
> 
> ...


That 302 is at 27" draw... that would put it at about 330 if it were 30" draw...


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Hemingway said:


> That 302 is at 27" draw... that would put it at about 330 if it were 30" draw...


Oops. I didnt see that part. I am so use to comparing speeds at 30" AMO.

If that is the case that is a speed bow for us stubby armed guys.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> If that is the case that is a speed bow for us stubby armed guys.


No......that is THE speed bow for you stubby armed guys. :wink: That's with a 7 1/4" brace height as well. No smoke and mirrors or short brace heights. Just Lb for Lb the fastest thing going.


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

BradMc26 said:


> Oops. I didnt see that part. I am so use to comparing speeds at 30" AMO.
> 
> If that is the case that is a speed bow for us stubby armed guys.


Yes, it is... My 06 is shooting 291 with a 320 grain arrow and 27" draw...


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Matt / PA said:


> No......that is THE speed bow for you stubby armed guys. :wink: That's with a 7 1/4" brace height as well. No smoke and mirrors or short brace heights. Just Lb for Lb the fastest thing going.


So what about the "smooth" vs "fast" mod on the 07' Equalizer? Are those two options available?

Geez, why didnt I notice this bow before I got my new one this year  

You guys think I could buy this without my wife noticing :embara:


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

So really no speed improvements from last year then. Thats ok. 320fps is blazing!:wink:


----------



## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

One more thing.... Hemingway's 291 fps is with a 60# draw weight! 

Brad... the Equalizer is in a league all it's own. An Equalizer at 27" will blow an Allegiance out of the water at 27".

-ZA



Hemingway said:


> Yes, it is... My 06 is shooting 291 with a 320 grain arrow and 27" draw...


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

RedRocket_22 said:


> So really no speed improvements from last year then. Thats ok. 320fps is blazing!:wink:


 I've still got my '03 Patriot Dually and though it's faster, it's harder to draw and not as kind to shoot as the Binarys. I think there's a limit to how hard the general population wants to work to get to full draw to enjoy shooting a bow. More speed will require more effort.


----------



## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Brad, the Equalizer uses the little E cams. There is no module option. Max draw weight is 60#, max draw length is 27 1/2". This bow is just what the short draw, low draw weight archers needed.


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

I think your right, it was just all the hype that people are throwing out a 350fps IBO.

Still getting a Gaurdian even though it isn't as fast as my Allegiance.


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

pdq 5oh said:


> Brad, the Equalizer uses the little E cams. There is no module option. Max draw weight is 60#, max draw length is 27 1/2". This bow is just what the short draw, low draw weight archers needed.


Hmm. 

I thought there was a "fast" vs "smooth" option on all cams. The smooth being a little easier to draw.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

There never was the option of differend speed modules on the Equalizer's cams.


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> There never was the option of differend speed modules on the Equalizer's cams.



Yeah I am learning that now. Forgive me for being so in the dark.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Mike from Texas (May 15, 2004)

What is the price on a Equalizer? 2006 model.


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

Does anybody know what the camo patterns will be?

Max-1?
Anyone?, Beuler, Beuler, Beuler


----------



## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

I don't know if this was asked or answered but are there any new target colors going to be added?


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

Yes, yes, 

whats with all the colors? What will the target limbs look like?


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Crackers said:


> There is another press and it's the HTM Deluxe.
> 
> Target colors are Clear Chrome, Smoke Chrome and Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs
> 
> The EQ, Allegiance and Constitution Black Marble w/Smoke Flame limbs.


Here is where Crackers told us about the colors.

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

Forgive me for being lazy, because I don't really care to search through 760+ posts, but what kind of press will the Commander/Guardian require???


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

HTM Deluxe is one, there was another mentioned?

But it was also said that it could be taken down with out a press.

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Found it - X-PRESS


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*What else is new?*

Will the Tribute have a traget modle?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I think I read where it will only be available in camo for '07.


----------



## Hemingway (Sep 7, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> I think I read where it will only be available in camo for '07.


Camo or Black marble only... no chrome finishes...


----------



## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

LastCall said:


> But it was also said that it could be taken down with out a press.
> 
> :cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


That's going to be interesting. I guess I'll figure it out because I already have my Commander in the smoke chrome on it's way. :wink: :wink:


----------



## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Allegiance*



Matt / PA said:


> Dave,
> The Allegiance still carries the same 40 degree pocket angle geometry so no it will not be as beyond parallel as the Tribute.
> I have a picture somewhere of them (Tribute / Allegiance) side by side, I'll see if I can post it when I get home.


Matt,

Thanks for the reply! I will try to wait patiently for your post! I did see a picture of one a guy has from AZ, but it wasn't the best pic in the world. Kinda hard to see it.

Dave


----------



## jk99 (Oct 14, 2005)

*1*

The guardian is supposed to be a 33 ata and a 7.5-8 brace height!!!! And the commander is replacing the old glory at 37 ata.


----------



## Pizonarcher (Jun 13, 2002)

Matt, how about a pic of those smoke flame limbs


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

> how about a pic of those smoke flame limbs


Yes please.


----------



## C-fused (Mar 30, 2006)

*Bump*

Guardian 33.75" ATA, 7.125" Brace, 321-329 IBO, Draw lengths 25"-30"

Commander 37.25" ATA, 7.5" Brace, 310-318 IBO, Draw lengths 27"-32"

Here's the specs again for anyone who doesn't want to read 20 pages of fine entertainment and insightful information.


----------



## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

:thumbs_up I can't wait to get these new Bowtech's in our Pro Shop here. The suspence is killer.


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

jk99 said:


> The guardian is supposed to be a 33 ata and a 7.5-8 brace height!!!! And the commander is replacing the old glory at 37 ata.


33.75" 7 1/8 on the Guardian


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

ShootingABN! said:


> Will the Tribute have a traget modle?


No


----------



## Khunter (Feb 25, 2004)

Will the Constitution still have the draw stop peg on the upper cam to give it a really solid wall. I personally love the really solid wall, it makes the bow much more stable for me.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Khunter said:


> Will the Constitution still have the draw stop peg on the upper cam to give it a really solid wall. I personally love the really solid wall, it makes the bow much more stable for me.



Yes, I believe that the new Guardian and Commander will be the only ones without the draw stop post contacting the limb. The stop will be in the module on those models.


----------



## Crackers (Mar 9, 2004)

A drop stop will be used if it is set at 65% let off


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*will it stay?*

:boxing: :bump: :grouphug:


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

Here at Sportsmans Warehouse they are already in our system and we will be expecting them around the 15th. 

The gaurdian and commander are going to run 749.99 and im assuming it will be standard color and most of the other prices are the same except the tomakat is 549.99 instead of 529.99 in 06.


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Crackers said:


> A drop stop will be used if it is set at 65% let off


On the two CLP (center limb pivot) bows?


----------



## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Techy said:


> On the two CLP (center limb pivot) bows?


Yup:wink:


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Any pics of those target limbs yet?



P.S. I talked with our rep and there is no word about using the Max-1 camo. There are the same camos available as last year (minus the Max-4). He said there is always the possibility of aquiring another camo later on, but no guarantees. So for all those who were wondering about the Max-1, as of right now it is a no-go.


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

Techy said:


> Any pics of those target limbs yet?
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I talked with our rep and there is no word about using the Max-1 camo. There are the same camos available as last year (minus the Max-4). He said there is always the possibility of aquiring another camo later on, but no guarantees. So for all those who were wondering about the Max-1, as of right now it is a no-go.



poop.


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

What time(Greenwich) will the new line be on their website?:tongue: 
I guess no members of AT are interested to look at that 
:RockOn: :RockOn: :RockOn: :RockOn: :RockOn: 
:eyebrows: :eyebrows: :eyebrows: :biggrin1: :biggrin1: :biggrin1:


----------



## EricO (Nov 24, 2004)

Looks like midnight, relative to where you are.

countdown clock @ www.strykerxbow.com


----------



## J.C. (Aug 20, 2004)

I'm sure someone has the catalog scanned, ready to post some time after midnight EST. :wink:


----------



## C-fused (Mar 30, 2006)

Techy said:


> Any pics of those target limbs yet?
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I talked with our rep and there is no word about using the Max-1 camo. There are the same camos available as last year (minus the Max-4). He said there is always the possibility of aquiring another camo later on, but no guarantees. So for all those who were wondering about the Max-1, as of right now it is a no-go.


Mossy Oak Brush was available in the '06 line. Did your rep happen to mention if it will be available for '07?
From what I've read on this thread so far, it will be Mossy Oak Obsession, Realtree Hardwoods HD, and Realtree Hardwoods Green HD.
For the fashion conscious western bowhunters, hopefully BowTech will listen and offer a pattern for you guys. Max-1 would look nice.


----------



## Buckeye Bowsmith (Jan 25, 2006)

How can Sportsmans Warehouse have Bowtech in there store system??? I thought Bowtech was small pro shop only line? I would put sportsmans in comparison to BPS Cabelas and Gander??? It thought that Bowtech along with other top brands will not put their bows in a big box store. Anyone have the same thoughts?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I've seen the Hoyt Trykon at Cabelas.


----------



## acridlon (Jul 18, 2006)

*bowtechs*



TrykonMan said:


> How can Sportsmans Warehouse have Bowtech in there store system??? I thought Bowtech was small pro shop only line? I would put sportsmans in comparison to BPS Cabelas and Gander??? It thought that Bowtech along with other top brands will not put their bows in a big box store. Anyone have the same thoughts?


I saw bows made by bowtech specially for and offered only at sportmans stores as well as the regular line. That was in Idaho...


----------



## HoofsUp (Mar 8, 2006)

acridlon said:


> I saw bows made by bowtech specially for and offered only at sportmans stores as well as the regular line. That was in Idaho...


Which bows are specially manufactured for Sportsman's? Cabelas carries the Diamond line of bows manufactured by Bowtech.

I am heading to the factory tomorrow or Thursday to take a look around in their in house Pro Shop! Wonder if I can take my digital camera in with me! Does the first member pictured shooting one of the new bows get a prize?


----------



## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> I've seen the Hoyt Trykon at Cabelas.



I saw an S4 at a yard sale in Tacoma! :wink:


----------



## PhilFree (Dec 19, 2005)

*Used*

The big shops can carry the used stuff.
My guess is Cabelas had a used Trykon.

Used bows as I understand are not under the teritorial rules or internet sales restrictions.


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

Check out the pics I posted here a while back :wink: 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=378531&highlight=Patriot


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

FYI,

the website is updated.

www.bowtecharchery.com


----------



## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

'cept the commander tab aint workin.......


----------



## Guest (Oct 31, 2006)

Works for me


----------



## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

now its workin *S*,,,see Bow Tech does listen to uits customers.....


----------



## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

The guardian looks sexy on the bowtech website! I neeeeeed it!


----------



## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

do they have the ata right for the commander tho? 33 1/4"


----------



## Guest (Oct 31, 2006)

They have both bows listed with the same ATA length.. Anybody know the real A to A length on the Commander????


----------



## StevieJAngler (Nov 7, 2005)

see they fixed their problem. they already split the limbs.:wink: . no more tick tick tick.


----------



## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

Nice spelling on the site: Gaurdian.


----------



## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

:yawn:


StevieJAngler said:


> see they fixed their problem. they already split the limbs.:wink: . no more tick tick tick.


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

Cool :tongue: The 07 Allegiance is really looking good. 
I gotta say though, the new pics of the Guardian and Commander push me even further from buying em' though.....just too odd looking for me to buy one without seeing or shooting one first. 
Maybe in 08 when I get back from Iraw again. :wink:


----------



## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*07 Tribute BH*

Says Tribute has a 7 3/4 BH 06 had 7 1/2 right?????


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

I think it's due to the grip change...........1/4 of an inch could of came from the wood off the back of the riser.........


----------



## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

mdewitt71 said:


> I think it's due to the grip change...........1/4 of an inch could of came from the wood off the back of the riser.........


:thumbs_up 

The same reason a simular brand tends to measure long


----------



## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

mdewitt71 said:


> Cool :tongue: The 07 Allegiance is really looking good.
> I gotta say though, the new pics of the Guardian and Commander push me even further from buying em' though.....just too odd looking for me to buy one without seeing or shooting one first.
> Maybe in 08 when I get back from Iraw again. :wink:



Take care of yourself over there!


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Few glitches to get fixed, but the bows look good. I wish they had some better pics of the target colors, mostly the limbs. In the pic, they kinda look bad. Maybe i will just have to see it in person.


----------



## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

Kelsnore said:


> Take care of yourself over there!


Thanks bro, I got a few months left....we wont push out till after the New Year sometime...............

mq32hunter- I thought the Target limbs looked pretty neat. :thumbs_up....better than the straight carbon film IMO............


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Beam her up scottie.
This was headed for the second page so i thought i might take one for the blowie team.:wink:


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Silver Dingo said:


> Beam her up scottie.
> This was headed for the second page so i thought i might take one for the blowie team.:wink:


Ding Dong!! I think Avon is calling


----------



## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

meanv2 said:


> Ding Dong!! I think Avon is calling


Then answer the door and buy your lipstick.:wink:


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

I see nothing that suggests how they press the bows or all of the accessories that they are putting out and isn't the commander 37 1/2 inch?

I'm really going to have to shoot the gaurdian and commander before judgement is passed, but damn that allegiance looks good at 7 1/4 and around 330 fps with fixed cam lean and thinner grip.

huuuummm????


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Just looked at the updated BowTech web site If I read it right, the Guardian and Commander both have a 1 1/2 inch deflex riser?? I know I did read that the new risers are forged:tongue: I'll bet this new design will be VERY forgiving, it HAS to be:wink: This is great performance for a 1 1/2 inch deflexed riser bow!
O, by the way,,,,,my Tribute put the hammer on a VERY nice buck for me tonight:tongue:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

RedRocket_22 said:


> I see nothing that suggests how they press the bows or all of the accessories that they are putting out and isn't the commander 37 1/2 inch?
> 
> I'm really going to have to shoot the gaurdian and commander before judgement is passed, but damn that allegiance looks good at 7 1/4 and around 330 fps with fixed cam lean and thinner grip.
> 
> huuuummm????


 The new Constitution is looking great also!!


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## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> The new Constitution is looking great also!!



Truely, it does. I think my roomate will be partaking in a 60# in Brush with a little crackerization thrown in the mix.


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

The new web site looks great.

I just wish Bowtech would put the bows upright at the same angle so you didnt have to tilt your head  

Man you guys should hear how bad I have been hitting my wife up for one of these. I think she is about to crack :wink:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

BradMc26 said:


> The new web site looks great.
> 
> I just wish Bowtech would put the bows upright at the same angle so you didnt have to tilt your head
> 
> Man you guys should hear how bad I have been hitting my wife up for one of these. I think she is about to crack :wink:




Surely there's something she'd like to get too?? 


Work out a trade:wink:


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> Surely there's something she'd like to get too??
> 
> 
> Work out a trade:wink:


Well she did say "Just buy one for me that you can shoot".

Light bulb went off in my head. Hello new Equalizer.

Then I remembered she is right handed and I am wrong handed  

Maybe I can teach her to shoot lefty :embara:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Well, the wife and I are going to the new Cabelas opening in LaVista, Nebraska today to get her a new meat mixer so she can make more of her own hot Italian sausages:tongue: Maybe I can use that to work out a deal for a new bow for me (and a few sausages too):tongue: :wink:


----------



## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Well, the wife and I are going to the new Cabelas opening in LaVista, Nebraska today to get her a new meat mixer so she can make more of her own hot Italian sausages:tongue: Maybe I can use that to work out a deal for a new bow for me (and a few sausages too):tongue: :wink:



So what you're saying is the wife is giving you the sausage?   And you get a new bow?  Well...now we know who has it made!!!


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

Okay, I give? Where are the new bows on the website? I see a pic of the Guardian, I click on "Learn More" and it takes me to the 06 bows?

Its early and maybe Im still asleep?


:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Kelsnore said:


> So what you're saying is the wife is giving you the sausage?   And you get a new bow?  Well...now we know who has it made!!!



IF she goes for it, otherwise there's always Johnsonville


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## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> Just looked at the updated BowTech web site If I read it right, the Guardian and Commander both have a 1 1/2 inch deflex riser?? I know I did read that the new risers are forged:tongue: I'll bet this new design will be VERY forgiving, it HAS to be:wink: This is great performance for a 1 1/2 inch deflexed riser bow!
> O, by the way,,,,,my Tribute put the hammer on a VERY nice buck for me tonight:tongue:



*Good job on the buck! Got any pics?*
Oh yea, please post them in the hunting forum; we don't want anyone to get all bent out of shape about posting hunting items in the general section again.


----------



## buckfeverben (Dec 2, 2004)

I just found a TYPO on the bowtech website.......anyone else notice the ATA listed for the commander? I'm seeing 26-1/2-32"?????????


I thought it was supposed to be like 38"?

I'm most likely going to buy this bow....I'll bet this thing is going to be a REAL shooter...


----------



## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

LastCall said:


> Okay, I give? Where are the new bows on the website? I see a pic of the Guardian, I click on "Learn More" and it takes me to the 06 bows?
> 
> Its early and maybe Im still asleep?
> 
> ...



Nevermind, I figured it out? The new site works in IE, but not with Mozilla?? When I use Mozilla I get the old site??? 

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

LastCall said:


> Nevermind, I figured it out? The new site works in IE, but not with Mozilla?? When I use Mozilla I get the old site???
> 
> :cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


It worked fine for me last night using Firefox.


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

I wish we could see the gaurdian and commander target limbs.

Poop on them for ditching Max-4


----------



## JRF20 (Jul 14, 2006)

RedRocket_22 said:


> I wish we could see the gaurdian and commander target limbs.
> 
> Poop on them for ditching Max-4


Yeah I know, I was really looking forward to getting a bowtech in Max-4. But they have brush camo available, I'd like to see a bow in that color. That might look pretty cool too.


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

Abyone know what they have done to speed the Constitution up as it is now rated 320-312fps?????


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

buckfeverben said:


> I just found a TYPO on the bowtech website.......anyone else notice the ATA listed for the commander? I'm seeing 26-1/2-32"?????????
> 
> 
> I thought it was supposed to be like 38"?
> ...


The site also say that the commander has a 30 1/2 DL, but it should be 32.
I am going to buy the commander too. I was just going to buy an Old Glory, but I will go for the Commander. I just hope it will not take to long time till its availible here in Norway:drool:


----------



## RedRocket_22 (Oct 18, 2005)

JRF20 said:


> Yeah I know, I was really looking forward to getting a bowtech in Max-4. But they have brush camo available, I'd like to see a bow in that color. That might look pretty cool too.



My buddy has a 06 tribute in brush. It looks good but you have to be up close to really see the definition. Plus its going to be damn hard to match accessories.

Max-1 or Max-4 would have deffinately looked sweet! :sad: 

I get tired of saying that.


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## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

November 1st = Release Date

November 1st = My B-Day


Coincidence?? I think not.


What will it be???? Commander for 3D and keep my Tribute? OR Guardian for hunting and keep my Constitution?

Decisions, decisions.


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

Well my decision is going to be, keep the tribute and get the commander for 
3d.


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## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

mq32hunter said:


> Well my decision is going to be, keep the tribute and get the commander for
> 3d.



That sounds like a pretty good idea. I wonder how the Commander would be for spots?


----------



## Archery-Addiction (Nov 1, 2005)

I too am wondering how it will be for spots, i cant wait to get one in my hands to find out. Got the feeling in may hold like a constitution, and if it does...Saweeeet!!!!


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I wonder how the Commander will be for hearts:wink:


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

*Did anyone notice the possibly optional "heated grip" for us late season hunters. 

It is talked about under the target bow tab, with the other grip options*. :wink: :darkbeer:


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## J.C. (Aug 20, 2004)

DBL LUNG said:


> November 1st = Release Date
> 
> November 1st = My B-Day
> 
> ...


Happy birthday! Get both. :wink:


----------



## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

41mag said:


> Happy birthday! Get both. :wink:



Thanks. I should just get both and say screw the mortgage this month!
I wonder what the lending company would say :embara:


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

DBL LUNG said:


> Thanks. I should just get both and say screw the mortgage this month!
> I wonder what the lending company would say :embara:


Wonder if I can increase the credit limit on my mastercard:tongue:


----------



## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

*New Bowtechs*

As of about 3 hours ago the entire line is on the web sight. They have all the stats for the bows and pics up for your viewing. Looks good.


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## DBL LUNG (Oct 3, 2005)

montanaarchery said:


> As of about 3 hours ago the entire line is on the web sight. They have all the stats for the bows and pics up for your viewing. Looks good.



I can't access Bowtech's website from work. So I have to wait til I get home to check them out.


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

Just got of the phone with my BT dealer.

He has the '07 Tributes and Allegiances.

In his words...."the '07 Allegiance is one bad-arse bow!...."

The Guardians and Commanders haven't showed up as of yet.


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## LastCall (Mar 18, 2005)

MY 07 Constitution (Smoke) is on its way!:dance: Now the wait begins!

:cocktail: LastCall:cocktail:


----------



## 3Dobsessed (Jun 11, 2004)

got a diamond Black Ice in the store today.If your credit card is almost maxed out this is the way to go.this thing is sweet!cant wait for the Bowtechs!:wink:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I thought about getting a target bow and the smoke chrome would be my choice if I do:tongue: I'll wait and see one in person before I decide.


----------



## dzingale (Mar 11, 2004)

You have to check out the Allegiance, it is amazing.


----------



## jpm_mq2 (May 22, 2004)

Will the limbdriver arrow rest work on the commander and guardian?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

jpm_mq2 said:


> Will the limbdriver arrow rest work on the commander and guardian?


 I'm thinking that there won't be enough limb movement where the limb button that actuates the launcher attaches to the limb. Spott Hogg is making one they call the Whammy that attaches to the down cable that works somewhat like the Limb Driver. The cord is tied down somewhat taut and it relaxes at draw like the Limb Driver.

I'll find a link.. Here,,

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=401104


----------



## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

had a chance to shoot the new alegiance today.it's better than expected.feels much lighter and the grip is awesome.draw lenght was to short but was still fun to shoot.smooth quiet and shock free.bowtech comes through again.can't wait till I get my new guardian:tongue:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Shooting will be interesting, just looking at them and the specs the Allegiance and Guardian seems to be close to apples to apples, and the Allegiance looks to have the advantage.


----------



## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Shooting will be interesting, just looking at them and the specs the Allegiance and Guardian seems to be close to apples to apples, and the Allegiance looks to have the advantage.


 Speed wise maybe. However smooth wise the Guardian is THE most EFFICIENT bow on the market right now. Most bows are about 81 or 82 % at 9 gpp the allegance is 86% at 9 gpp and about 82% at ibo. The guardian is 86% at 5gpp(ibo) and 90% at 9gpp. The guardian also has a 1.5" deflex riser that is more stable on the draw and less effected by hand torque AND balances more like a reflex so stabalizers are now optional! Not to mention the big G's true center cams and reduced shock (yes I know hard to beleave but true)!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wink: :wink: :wink: :darkbeer: :wink:


----------



## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

Wow!

Decisions....decisions

Equalizer is now 27 & 1/2 and 308 fps.

Guardian will be close at that draw length...

Allegiance is just smokin' HOT!!



What to do?

What to do?

What to do?

:wink: :wink:


----------



## doefingers (Feb 24, 2004)

*Guardian question....*

Will they be most efficent maxed out or will it make any difference , would like to shoot about 64lbs was wondering if I would be better off with 50-60 maxed or 60-70 lb. bow on low end ,,,thanks....


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

jpm_mq2 said:


> Will the limbdriver arrow rest work on the commander and guardian?


I wonder if the Guardian and Commander will have enough recoil to drop my Free Fall


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

Guys,

Last night I was talking to my wife about buying a new bow. After harping on her non stop. She finally says "Go ahead and get it, if you want it" :darkbeer: 

I knew she would crack! Of course, I do not have the money saved and will not have it until around Feburary when Uncle Sam owes me big time. You think she knows that, and will change her tune then?

Anyways, I have another question about the Equalizer that I may have asked before, but do not remember.

I know the Equalizer has the "fast" cam without the option for the "smooth" module. But I read on another thread that for 2007 the Equalizer did not get the new and improved Binary Cam. Is this true?


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> I know the Equalizer has the "fast" cam without the option for the "smooth" module. But I read on another thread that for 2007 the Equalizer did not get the new and improved Binary Cam. Is this true?


New and improved just for you.........:wink: (We knew you were buying this year)


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Well, as to efficiency, thats good, but the question is why make the Guardian slower than the Allegiance??? 

As to reflex deflex, the bowstring and the rest is the same distance from the grip with both bows. Therefore if you torque the bow a certain amount with one, you will also torque the bow a certain amount with the other. No difference. The center limb bracket doesn't stop the bow from turning a bit, turns the same as the Allegiance. 

As to balance, the Guardian may balance like a reflex, but the Allegiance IS a reflex.

Concerning reduced shock, didn't know the Allegiance had a shock problem. As Bowtech advertised, ZERO.

True center cams, well, as to accuracy everybody swore the Allegiance had no problem with accuracy even with the cam lean, IF you noticed cam lean, which if you read threads many swore there was none.

Lets be real, the real reason for the center limb bracket is to combat wheel lean and limb twist. The hope would be that would make the limb reliability better, and if that is true then the Guardian WILL have that advantage on the Allegiance.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> As to reflex deflex, the bowstring and the rest is the same distance from the grip with both bows. Therefore if you torque the bow a certain amount with one, you will also torque the bow a certain amount with the other. No difference. The center limb bracket doesn't stop the bow from turning a bit, turns the same as the Allegiance.


They will turn the same amount true, but a deflexed design makes it MUCH harder to torque in the first place. .It has to do with the pivot point in relation to the hand regardless of where the rest is located.
That is just fact, much like a 1" Slick Trick will blow a hole comparable to a 3 blade 1 1/8 head. :wink:  
(And don't argue with me Gary or I'm leaving those good for nothing heads at home for my IL trip tomorrow!......not really but it sounds good. LOL)

Seriously a deflexed riser design is harder to torque than a reflexed one.

The limb design combined with the new cams absolutely combat limb twist but while providing a deflexed geometry they also cause less hand shock or vibration due to the smaller amount of limb tip travel combined with the firing part of the limb carrying much less mass weight.......the diving board bending at the pocket vs the gentle arc of the center pivot.

The Guardian is slightly slower simply because it's a different cam system. As mentioned though it is possibly the highest efficiency cam system ever made.

Oh Gary by the way.......great job on the new blades! Very nice. Did some final check ups last night and they're flying like darts to 50 yards and the old blades have been officially swapped out for the new ones for game time.


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Oh Gary by the way.......great job on the new blades! Very nice. Did some final check ups last night and they're flying like darts to 50 yards and the old blades have been officially swapped out for the new ones for game time.


Matt,
Glad to know you got the new blades in and got your game face on. Yep they do fly like field points out to 50 yards. 

I proved that in Nebraska

Gary go shoot the new Guardian and then tell me what you think

In the mean time ship me some more Mags and blades


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

On the reflex/deflex issue, if you take an old school deflex riser bow and add a set of limbs that also has a 6 inch long pivoting limb pocket,, you still have a deflex riser geometry. Just look at the picture of the TSS Quadraflex, there's half of the limbs in front of the pivot and the same on the Guardian and Commander. The pivot point is still behind the grip:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I can see that the Guardian might have less shock, but the thing is that the Allegiance had so little it was said to have zero. Just question if less than zero will be much noticeable.

As to reflex deflex torque, you gotta tell me why the Guardian will be less affected by torque, not just to take your word for it. Although I assure you if I was going to take anybodys word for something I would take yours, LOL. Just a bit skittish since the Santa Claus thing. 

The pivot point in relation to the hand is at the same position from the limb bolts to the limb tips and string with BOTH bows. The center limb bracket doesn't change that. You can't just ignore the part of the riser and limbs in front of the bracket. They are still there, the same as the Allegiance. And it was already stated that the Guardian balances like a reflex bow, which means it balances like the Allegiance. There just simply isn't anything magical to reduce torque. Having the center limb bracket doesn't have any effect on torque. Put a laser on each arrow to measure torque. Mount each bow in a hooter shooter and turn both a sixteenth of an inch and see where the laser hits. Exact same spot. Already stated both bows balance like a reflex. No difference in one torqueing less than the other.


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> The center limb bracket doesn't change that. You can't just ignore the part of the riser and limbs in front of the bracket.


Yes it does and yes you can. That part of the bow does not influence the geometry and handling. The rearward point of limb contact in relation to the hand does. 
Dammit Gary.........I have Muzzy MX4's right here. I'll do it.:tongue: 

It is a proven fact that a deflexed riser geometry is less prone to shooter induced torque than a reflexed one......regardless of where a laser or the arrow points when turned manually. 
It has to due with the influence that a shooter can induce on the different geometries and a deflexed one absolutely is more forgiving in this regard.

The Guardian and Commander are most certainly DEflexed riser geometry. With repsect to how hard they are to torque you really can effectively erase everything in front of the center pivot.
The section in front simply allows for a longer operating limb.



> I can see that the Guardian might have less shock, but the thing is that the Allegiance had so little it was said to have zero. Just question if less than zero will be much noticeable.


It's always a matter of taking the designs as far as we can with respect to a pleasant shooting experience. How fast can you make something while reducing the shot feel and still make it pleasant to draw and inherently accurate to boot........its a neverending quest.


----------



## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

> No difference in one torqueing less than the other.


If we have to teach you the ABC's of reflex verse deflex............

you really shouldn't be leading any arguement here:sad: :sad: ...........

what you are saying is just silly 

You are arguing simple known fact.

Move on


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Both bows would balance like a reflex riser because of the mass weight in front of a verticle centerline of the grip on the Guardian. Make the front portion of the Guardian riser more verticle and shorten up the front portion of the limbs and you would have a more normal looking bow but still the same dexlex geometry. With a shorter limb section out front, you would loose limb working length to store energy and would result in more "stacking" during the draw cycle. A different cam profile would be required for a shorter limb.


----------



## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

Is this really the slick trick guy.................ukey: 

shouldn't you be on the phone to germany and not making yourself look foolish:wink:


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Matt / PA said:


> Yes it does and yes you can. That part of the bow does not influence the geometry and handling.
> 
> The section in front simply allows for a longer operating limb.


This is the boiled down version.

This is the way I saw things as well. Good explanation.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Rack-Attack said:


> Is this really the slick trick guy.................ukey:
> 
> shouldn't you be on the phone to germany and not making yourself look foolish:wink:




Now Rack,,, I think he really wants to understand and we're here to help:wink:


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Matt, Curious? since the Guardian is so effecient and supposedly lose less of that effeciency at shorter draw lengths than other bows. Which would be faster at say 28" draw 65# shooting a 325 grain arrow the Allegiance? or the Guardian?

Just curious


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> Which would be faster at say 28" draw 65# shooting a 325 grain arrow the Allegiance? or the Guardian?


No clue.  
Seriously without setting them up exactly and actually trying it its hard to come up with an exact number. Especially with the actual speed range because they overlap a bit. Depends upon the particular model you get.

The Guardian will lose less from Point A than the Allegiance will working backward through the draw lengths. The actual comparison would depend upon the starting point for each bow. A high end Guardian is comparable to a low end speed mod Allegiance and conversley an average to low end Guardian is comparable to a higher end smooth mod Allegiance.

I think? LOL I'm confusing myself.


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

LOL Rack, you might want to be careful about who is making who look foolish. 

All you have said is, JUST BECAUSE.

Now who does that make look foolish?

The center limb bracket does not magically make them deflex.

Again, the grip is at the same position in relation to the arrow rest and the string, and the weight distribution is the same geometrically, as stated, the Guardian has the balance of a reflex bow same as the Allegiance. Actually I would figure the Guardian doesn't have quite the same balance as the Allegiance. Of course if I recall the Guardian also weighs more than the Allegiance. It would be a simple matter to put a short steel stabilizer on the Allegiance so they would both balance exactly the same.

Do a consistent, controlled, repeatable test of both bows of shooter induced torque and you will see no difference since the geometry and balance of both bows is the same.

Tell you what Rack, since you seem to be a bit aggressive, why we don't know, its just a civil bow discussion, or was before you got all worked up.

We will let Spot Hogg set up a test of a Guardian, and an Allegiance with a short stabilizer so they both weigh and balance the same. Spot will setup the Hooter so it induces whatever amount of shooter torque and measure where the arrows hit. If the Guardian is more accurate than the Allegiance I will buy you a Guardian, if not you give the cost of a Guardian to St Jude. Deal????????????

And I am on the phone to Germany, I am ambidextrous.........


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

It sounds like the Guardian will be easy to draw if it's that efficient. I'm now wondering if I should move back to a 70 pounder and gain the speed back against the Allegiance at a lower draw weight?


Could this bow be the next Liberty as far as smooth and easy to draw for the poundage but with much more speed?


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

What draw weight you want Rack?


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> It sounds like the Guardian will be easy to draw if it's that efficient. I'm now wondering if I should move back to a 70 pounder and gain the speed back against the Allegiance at a lower draw weight?
> 
> 
> Could this bow be the next Liberty as far as smooth and easy to draw for the poundage but with much more speed?


Russ, That's exactly what I decided to do


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

You want some of that action Gimp????

I love helping out St Jude.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Putting these two bows in a Hooter Shooter would eliminate the human factor of grip torque. What could be done is to draw each bow with the H.S. and mount a lazer on each during the draw cycle to see which one moves the lazer dot at 20 yards the most during the draw.


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> You want some of that action Gimp????
> 
> I love helping out St Jude.


 Nope, I'll buy my bow ,,,,,,, when I get back to working


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

It would be a simple matter to replicate grip torque with a Hooter Shooter. Ask the Hooters. If they can't I can.


----------



## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

> Tell you what Rack, since you seem to be a bit aggressive, why we don't know


is there a mouse in your pocket................:tongue: 


Balance Has Nothing to do with inherent bow forgiveness.

the relationship of the grip to the string to the rest has nothing to do with the riser being DEFLEX.............It has to do with the relationship of the LIMB POCKET to the grip..........

A test with a Hooter shooter will do nothing but cull bad arrows. If the test is controlled consistent and repeatable then a bows "forgiveness" cannot be measured. We as shooters are not that is why deflex is better.



> The center limb bracket does not magically make them deflex.


It ain't magic.............its geometry:wink: :tongue:


----------



## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I would think there would be a good bit of difference between 3+ inches of reflex and 1 1/2 inches of deflex, as far as shootability wouldn't you:wink: 



That's a 4 1/2 inch improvement in shootability as far as I can imagine it.


I can only imagine what a bow would shoot like that suddenly had the brace height stretched from 7 inches to 11 1/2 inches and still shot 328 IBO!!!!!!!


I don't think they could make then fast enough..........


----------



## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> The center limb bracket does not magically make them deflex.


Gary,
Yes it does.

Just because.:wink: 

What this bow accomplishes is the solution to the problem of why don't you see any deflexed riser speed bows, or deflexed riser parallel limb bows.........you would gain so much brace height as to make the bow unusable except for maybe the longest draw lengths. Yes you can have too much brace height.

The Center pivot design is basically the first deflexed geometry "Speed" bow.

It really is a deflex geometry Gary, no tricks of the eye of design. It will behave just like a conventional deflexed riser design minus the forward limb mounting truss. 
It is a fact, not an opinion that a deflexed geometry is a more inherently forgiving design and these 2 bows are in FACT a deflexed geometry no matter how you WANT to look at them.
You can't get around it, they're deflex in design and function.

You can talk all the Hooter Shooters you want, take for example a deflexed riser Hoyt Protec and say a highly reflexed riser Vipertec and do the same things to them.......it's comparable. 
How many Hoyt guys would tell you that if some how that Protec shot just as fast as the Vipertec and were the same ATA lengths that they would choose the Vipertec for say 3D shooting over the deflexed Protec? (or any shooting for that matter)
The reason guys many times choose the highly reflexed designs for 3D shooting is they are willing to give up some inherent accuracy potential for raw speed. Especially the short draw archers.

With the Guardian and Commander they do not have to make that compromise.
You get everything, deflexed geometry and it's inherent benefits, great speed, center track cam alignment, less shot feel , less limb pre-load, less recoil.


----------



## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Everyone I have talked to that has shot the new Guardian has some awesome things to say about it. I for one could care less what a Hooter Shooter does to one. I will form my opinions from hands on shooting. Thank You!

If it is more accurate than my Allegiance it will be awesome indeed. If it has only slightly less recoil and noise then that is great too

You got those plane tickets yet? Or did you everything squared away over there


----------



## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

> What draw weight you want Rack?


I have a 50lb commander on order........black chrome:cocktail: 

And another 50lb constitution for myself.................dand thing is purty purty purty............

Along with lord knows how many guardians for the shop..........

played with the 07 Trib and alleg last night...................SWEEEEET:darkbeer:


----------



## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

meanv2 said:


> I for one could care less what a Hooter Shooter does to one. I will form my opinions from hands on shooting. Thank You!
> 
> If it is more accurate than my Allegiance it will be awesome indeed. If it has only slightly less recoil and noise then that is great too


Amen Dan.....I cant wait to test drive them!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

My take as to why deflex is less prone to torque. Riser geometry is measured at the rear pivot point of the limb. The farther back that point is, the harder it is to torque, or twist the riser with your hand. I feel this is due to the bending point of the limb being farther back. At times, as with the center pivot bows, behind the grip. The pressure applied at the pivot point (behind as opposed to in front of the hand), by the limbs bending when drawn, makes it physically harder (more needed pressure measured in any way you like) to turn the riser either way, left or right. This pressure being farther back, coupled with less limb length (measured from the rear pivot point to the axle), allows for less torque to be applied to the riser itself. I also feel that the farther back the pressure point is, the more it stabilizes the riser, as opposed to the pressure point being farther forward. Deflex effectively shortens the distance from the string to the bending point of the limb, making the bow more resistant to hand torque. This, in turn, leaves less length in front of the hand to induce torque. It takes more force (leverage) to move something the same amount when one lever is shorter than the other.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Thats what I thought, nobody will put their money where their mouth is. Except me.

I don't respond well to attempts to ridicule or bully me into silence. Too old, have seen too many people victim to that, and enjoy striking a blow for them when somebody tries it on me.

Want to bet on a poker hand, and I won't do it. Want to bet on physics and geometry, however, and I am ready. The hand is on the table, and I see it. 

You guys have doubts about what you see, and you know it. Wise choice not to bet.

If you can't see how easy it would be to construct a consistent, controlled, repeatable test to replicate grip torque then you surely can't envision what is or is not happening shooting both bows.

Not knocking Bowtech or the Guardian, if anybody looks I didn't say anything bad about it. Only said good things about the Guardian. Just stood up for the Allegiance in comparison. No need to get carried away with marketing, just pointed out true physics and geometry, and how to prove that to anybody who really wants to know the truth about it.

I have no connection to any bow company. Just speak plainly about any of them. For instance, I have no connection and do not own a PSE or AR. 

But you guys must really like the AR Velocity. 

And as my twin brother Forrest would say, thats all I'm gonna say about that.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Thats what I thought, nobody will put their money where their mouth is. Except me.
> 
> I don't respond well to attempts to ridicule or bully me into silence. Too old, have seen too many people victim to that, and enjoy striking a blow for them when somebody tries it on me.
> 
> ...



Hey,, don't go away,, let's argue some more Let's also all just take the test drive when they are available and compare our findings:wink:


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

But Gary, doesnt a Guardian equipped with a ST Magnum have a nice ring to it ?:wink: :tongue:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Thats what I thought, nobody will put their money where their mouth is. Except me.
> 
> I don't respond well to attempts to ridicule or bully me into silence. Too old, have seen too many people victim to that, and enjoy striking a blow for them when somebody tries it on me.
> 
> ...


No need to be quiet Gary! We are all learning a great deal from your deep understanding of reflex and deflex bows 

I'm headed to the woods here in a little bit. Wish I was packin my new Guardian.

I might could use a more forgiving bow


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Not any better ring than an Allegiance.

Will be very surprised if the Allegiance doesn't sell as well as the Guardian.

And that is my last word. Rack wants me back on the phone with Germany.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

meanv2 said:


> No need to be quiet Gary! We are all learning a great deal from your deep understanding of reflex and deflex bows
> 
> I'm headed to the woods here in a little bit. Wish I was packin my new Guardian.
> 
> I might could use a more forgiving bow


Help me understand the forgiving part.....is that in case you miss and the bow forgives you? :chortle:


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Not any better ring than an Allegiance.
> 
> Will be very surprised if the Allegiance doesn't sell as well as the Guardian.
> 
> And that is my last word. Rack wants me back on the phone with Germany.


If the 07 Allegiance is better than the 06.....well I cant imagine how other than lighter but my Allegiance has been just plain awesome to hunt with! I let my son use my Tribute....:secret:


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Not any better ring than an Allegiance.
> 
> Will be very surprised if the Allegiance doesn't sell as well as the Guardian.
> 
> And that is my last word. Rack wants me back on the phone with Germany.


Well I hope you have some Luck with Germany

I have thought about eating some steel shavings and Sh......... Well you know what I need

Actually I will probably own one of both. The Guardian and the Allegiance, but then after I shoot the Guardian I may change my mind


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

By the way,, the buck I shot, I got a quartering to high shoulder hit on him that literally knocked him over. He was on the ground and kicking a little with all his legs pointing toward me when I put another Slick Trick into his brisket. So I now have two Slick Tricks embedded in vertebrae, one from the underside 

I told the butcher to save those bones for me so I could get the heads back that I unscrewed the FMJ's from, hopefully he remembers


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Congrats on a nice buck Russ !!!!


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> Help me understand the forgiving part.....is that in case you miss and the bow forgives you? :chortle:


Yep that's it!! I think my Allegiance would get pissed off at me


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## NY911 (Dec 12, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Not any better ring than an Allegiance.
> 
> Will be very surprised if the Allegiance doesn't sell as well as the Guardian.
> 
> And that is my last word. Rack wants me back on the phone with Germany.



Perhaps the truest words spoken today!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Jerry/NJ said:


> Congrats on a nice buck Russ !!!!



Thanks! I worked him for about 10 minutes to get him in a shootable location. He kept parading back and forth on the other side of the pond while stiff legged walking with his ears laid back I like that attitude they have... I was facing my tree all this time and switching sides with my bow,, release on loop,, take it of to call, release back on loop, switch sides, call, release back on loop, take it off to call again!! Ten minutes worth of this crap will get you excited I tell you 

I was VERY glad I had a bow that I was so accustomed to and felt confident in,, it was subconscious when it came time to do the deed:wink:


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

I'm still trying to think the geometry through to actually come up with an engineering opinion of wether or not the truss in the back (moving the pivot point back) actually does anything for making the bow more deflex. I don't think it has anything to do with the pivot point per se, but it just happens that the PIVOT point is the further-est (word?) back point on a limb.

With that in mind.... that it's not the "pivot point" that determines reflex and deflex, I am trying to decide where the critical point in the bow geometry is that determines exactly how reflex or deflex this bow really is.

I think I'm going to have to draw a sketch and do a force diagram. I'm such a friggin geek.  

I'll post back in a bit with my opinion.... however diluted it might be.:wink: 

-ZA


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## abowpro (Apr 24, 2003)

In Garys defense, I don't think we would see much difference in the point of impact if the Guardian and Allegiance were shot from a Hooter with the same degree of torque. However, the design of the Guardian makes it harder to torque than the Allegiance when applying the same amount of "torque force". Therefore the Guardian should be more forgiving in apples to apples shooting situations.


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

*Ok...*

Looking at it a little closer and thinking a little more... it seems to me that the only thing that cuases reflex and deflex is the location of the center of mass with respect to the grip. I do not think pivot point has anything to do with it.

Since "center of mass" isn't an easily measured value (on a bow anyway), it's been easier to assume that the pivot point in relation to the grip would determine it, since all risers basically terminated into a limb pocket at each end. Not overly scientific, but could give one a feel for how the bow would perform with respect to reflex or deflex.

An example... a reflex bow (like my Tribute) the center of mass might be located out in front of the grip (downrange), a deflex bow would have it closer to the hand, or even with the hand or behind the hand. In this scenario, it would be much more scientific to call a bow with the center of mass behind your hand a "deflex" bow and one with the CM in front of your hand (downrange side) a "reflex" bow.

A simple test to get a "feel" for this would be to take the bow w/o any rests or sights and lay it on the edge of a table. Make sure that the cams are flush with the table edge (riser in the middle of the table). Slide the bow slowly back off the table, keeping eveything even, when the bow starts to tip and fall off the table limbs first (once it gets to it's center of mass, it'll start easily pivoting right before it falls), do it again and note the distance from the edge of the table to the back of the grip. If the CM (pivot point) is behind the grip, it's kinda deflex, it the pivot point is in front of the grip, it's reflex.

It's the location of the CM to your hand that determines how forgiving the bow is when fired, as the torqueing forces applied at the moment the shot is fired are acting/reacting differently in different locations. 

Further... the addition of stabilizers (to increase the bow's overall moment of inertia.....the resistance to torquing) can and does dramatically effect the "forgiveness" of the bow. Obviously, the higher the moment of inertia, the greater it resists torquing..... that's why you see 3 ft and longer stabilizers in competetion bows.


-ZA


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

*Oh yea...*

So my opinion (without shooting one) on the center pivot Bowtechs is that they truly might be more deflex in nature than the others in the Bowtech line, but it's b/c the CM has moved a little further back, not the location of the limb pivots.:wink: 

-ZA


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

ZA206 said:


> So my opinion (without shooting one) on the center pivot Bowtechs is that they truly might be more deflex in nature than the others in the Bowtech line, but it's b/c the CM has moved a little further back, not the location of the limb pivots.:wink:
> 
> -ZA


So is this a poor analogy?:



BOWGOD said:


> the best way i can think of to explain the major difference is to get yourself a stick (curved to simulate a bow) put both ends of the stick at either side of a doorway with the curved section facing you now try to balance your weight on the stick ( this way is simulates the characteristics of a reflex riser)
> notice how hard it is to balance without the stick torquing one way or another.
> 
> now put the same stick in the doorway the oposite way so the curve faces away from you.(deflex riser) notice how much easier it is to balance your weight without torquing the stick.


It seemed like a plausible, although simplistic, analogy, but I am no engineer. It seems like the deflex riser would be more resistent to torque prior to the shot, based on the pivot point location. So is the pivot point located at the CM, or is at the rear attachment point of the riser to the limb? I think we may have to ask you to construct some models and do some testing.

Should I call one of my Gamecock engineer buddies for the definitive answer?


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## Bowtech Joe (Aug 24, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Thats what I thought, nobody will put their money where their mouth is. Except me.
> 
> I don't respond well to attempts to ridicule or bully me into silence. Too old, have seen too many people victim to that, and enjoy striking a blow for them when somebody tries it on me.
> 
> ...


Here is the problem with that test. You would need to devise a way to measure the force needed to torque the bow. No matter what bow design you use it can be torqued to any degree with the proper amount of force. What Matt/Rack/WWAG are saying is that it will require MORE force to torque the Guardian/Commander than it does to torque the Allegiance.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Easily done Joe. But if you don't see it will let you wonder. Would think the Hooter guys tell you no problem. And what I said was it wouldn't require more force.

You are getting there ZA. Now go back and read what I said about the weight and balance of the Guardian and a steel stabilizer to make the Allegiance equal to it. Although I didn't say where you would mount the stabilizer.......

Its really simple, its not rocket science.

And congrats Gimp, incredible hunt, don't get any better than that.

While you are at it ZA, why don't you analyze an AR Velocity and get things more stirred up. 

Ok, back on the phone, you made me post again.


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

LeesburgGamecoc said:


> Gamecock engineer


There is no such thing.... just Gamecock graduates with calculators. 


As for BOWGOD's analogy, yes, his analogy is similar, and valid, but it delves into the modeling of dynamic systems.... way too much engineer-speak to put on the board without muddying the water. In his example the loading exerted by his arm is a "dampening force" in the deflex situation, and is an "occilating force" or "unstabilizing force" in the reflex situation. Similar... but not exact, since it's not exactly the case during the powerstroke of a bow being shot.

I could go deeper, but being a So.Car. grad, I already have lost you... it's OK... go back to sleep now!:wink: 

-ZA


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

P.S. The above analogy is a good analogy.......IF you are trying to balance your weight on the end of a curved stick. I confess I have never done that, certainly not with a bow.


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## ehaiss (Nov 5, 2005)

*A different test*

I think the proper test would not require a hooter shooter at all. I believe you could lock the bow in a device to measure angular force, then pull the bow on a predetermined torque angle. You would then measure the angular force the bow applied. 

If the pro-Guardian guys are correct, the Guardian will induce a higher force than the Allegence, meaning it would take more force to induce the same amount of torque during the shot. 

That test could be done very easily, if you had both bows, and someone to rig a test fixture up. 

If anyone wants to GIVE me both bows, I will set up the test. Of course, I can't promise that both bows will be returned >


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

These guys (Merlin) think that brace height is the only factor in resisting torque, as explained here:

http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk/articles/Reflex or Deflex.pdf

It is an interesting read.


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## geriggs (Apr 21, 2005)

1.21 JIGGAWATTS!!!!!!!! what was i thinking!!!!???????? 


you smartbowhunters are givin us that cant read and write a bad name.........wait or maybe a good name in some peoples eyes. 

Dont let the Anti's know we have edumacated people on our side. everyone on the outside thinks we a bunch of dumb hillbillies (me not being one of course). 

Lets keep it that way.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Nice try ehaiss, if it works and Bowtech sends you 2 bows, let me know, I will try it too.


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## Bowtech Joe (Aug 24, 2004)

ehaiss said:


> I think the proper test would not require a hooter shooter at all. I believe you could lock the bow in a device to measure angular force, then pull the bow on a predetermined torque angle. You would then measure the angular force the bow applied.
> 
> If the pro-Guardian guys are correct, the Guardian will induce a higher force than the Allegence, meaning it would take more force to induce the same amount of torque during the shot.
> 
> ...



ehaiss and i are looking at it the same way assuming that the bow is at full draw at the time the torque is measured. You need to measure the amount of force needed to torque the bow, not how the bow shoots when it is torqued.

I do not know if the hooter shooter would be able to simulate those conditions or not.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Huh????? You mean it doesn't matter how the bow shoots when it is torqued???? I thought where the arrow goes is ALL that really matters.


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Huh????? You mean it doesn't matter how the bow shoots when it is torqued???? I thought where the arrow goes is ALL that really matters.


I would think the relevant issue would be the level of force required to impose torque, not the affect of torque itself. We all can agree that we would like to avoid imparting torque to begin with, and that the affects are bad, so the question is does this design help avoid imparting torque?


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I don't know who would be talking about anything other than the level of force with each bow. Obviously more torque more error, less torque less error. Or, to spell it out, closer to the bullseye with less torque and farther away with more torque. Problem is nobody can figure out why the Guardian would be harder to torque than the Allegiance. For good reason, there isn't one.

By the way Lee, you notice in your Brit analysis they didn't care about the bracket on the Guardian as to torque.


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## Rack-Attack (Aug 9, 2002)

> Problem is nobody can figure out why the Guardian would be harder to torque than the Allegiance. For good reason, there isn't one.


I think we did, many times...............

Do you have all logical and correct answers to a simple known archery fact on your ignore list????


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

LeesburgGamecoc said:


> These guys (Merlin) think that brace height is the only factor in resisting torque, as explained here:
> 
> http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk/articles/Reflex or Deflex.pdf
> 
> It is an interesting read.


And I agree with them.


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## KELLY (Dec 20, 2002)

Does the the center pivot slide between the limbs?

I think I would need to see it illustrated for me to beleive the Guardian is a deflex bow.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

"logical and correct answers to a simple known archery fact on my ignore list".

Actually that a Guardian is less susceptible to torque than an allegiance isn't known to be a fact, simple or otherwise.

Course some people still believe the simple and known fact that the world is flat.

Somebody is ignoring physics and fact, but it isn't me.........


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Go to a spot shoot and tell all the boys there that reflex and deflex doesn't matter when it comes to forgivibility. Then DUCK because there will be somuch flack coming at that you may retain physical injury Reflex and Deflex does have to do with the fulcrom of were the limb loads as compared to where the hand fulcrom is. If your having a hard time seeing what is going on with the forces simply find some pics of the bows at full draw. Draw lines from nock point to limb load point to riser load point (handle). It will help you see how the forces are distributed. An inventive mind could setup a grid and even estimate torque loads using this.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Who would do that elk? I certainly never said that.

You guys jump Sage for awhile, I have work to do.


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> And I agree with them.


I agree too. I was trying to argue this when the new Bowtechs first came out, but no one would listen

"deflex is more forgiving", "scott, your wrong", "blah, blah, blah"

Don't get me wrong, my last 2 bows were Bowtechs, but I don't see anything special with this new center pivot design. It doesn't look bad, but it doesn't really look like an improvement.

Now the new balenced cams, that I thought was a good idea, too bad it is on all their bows.

But deflex and reflex don't affect anything, only brace height. Your hands are only connected at two points on the bow, the grip, and at the nock.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

scottland said:


> I agree too. I was trying to argue this when the new Bowtechs first came out, but no one would listen
> 
> "deflex is more forgiving", "scott, your wrong", "blah, blah, blah"
> 
> ...


UH was sage being sarcastic?


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

I am still trying to figure out how it turns from a reflex to a deflex riser without the limb butts/pockets liding forward.  It just has a brace to control limb twist, for Pete's sake.:behindsof


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

XP35 said:


> I am still trying to figure out how it turns from a reflex to a deflex riser without the limb butts/pockets liding forward.  It just has a brace to control limb twist, for Pete's sake.:behindsof


Brace is the key word here. I braces the bow to the deflex geomitry.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

But deflex geometry only works because the grip is ahead of the limbs...this makes a bow harder to torque. Put a piece of rope in your hand where your grip goes, pull it back and try to torque it. It won't easily. Why? Because all of it is BEHIND the contact point....not true with the new risers. Much of the riser, and the limb butts, is ahead of the grip. So it's still reflexed any way you look at it. Just because the BH "SEEMS" to increase at full draw means nothing. All bows that have a decent, gradual sweep to the limbs at full draw do this. THAT is the biggest improvement I can see in the new bows, BTW.:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

P.S. Mentioned the AR Velocity a couple times and nobody takes the bait. Twitch, twitch.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

XP, put on your seat belt, you've done it now.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

XP35 said:


> But deflex geometry only works because the grip is ahead of the limbs...this makes a bow harder to torque. Put a piece of rope in your hand where your grip goes, pull it back and try to torque it. It won't easily. Why? Because all of it is BEHIND the contact point....not true with the new risers. Much of the riser, and the limb butts, is ahead of the grip. So it's still reflexed any way you look at it. Just because the BH "SEEMS" to increase at full draw means nothing. All bows that have a decent, gradual sweep to the limbs at full draw do this. THAT is the biggest improvement I can see in the new bows, BTW.:wink:


Buzz wrong again! It take the positives of both and combinds them. The only drawback is about .5 pounds. I do agree about the gradual sweep thing.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> XP, put on your seat belt, you've done it now.


That's OK. I'm a big boy. I can handle it.:wink: 

Ever try to torque the grip on a slingshot? It won't happen because everything is behind the contact point. Maybe the new risers ARE 2 slingshots.  

Just kidding, guys. Just trying to get a grasp on how a bow turns from reflex to deflex just drawing it.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

elkreaper said:


> Buzz wrong again! It take the positives of both and combinds them. The only drawback is about .5 pounds. I do agree about the gradual sweep thing.


My whole reason for joining this discussion is to figure out HOW? It is not making sense.....


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Its magic XP. Can't be explained, just is.


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## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

All I know is my Commander should be here in a couple weeks.....:tongue:


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

The hatin never ends


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Honestly, I'm not hating. I am very curious and somewhat entrigued by a different design. I just don't get this whole "reflex becoming deflex" thing. That's all. Can someone explain how??


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

XP35 said:


> That's OK. I'm a big boy. I can handle it.:wink:
> 
> Ever try to torque the grip on a slingshot? It won't happen because everything is behind the contact point. Maybe the new risers ARE 2 slingshots.
> 
> Just kidding, guys. Just trying to get a grasp on how a bow turns from reflex to deflex just drawing it.


 It doesn't,, it's always deflexed,, at brace or full draw. If this bow didn't have the portion of the limbs and riser in front of the grip, do you think that it would measure any different? Forget what you see in front of the back brace (which serves the same purpose as a regular limb pivot) and see that the back of the limbs is the only thing relevant in measuring the geometry of this bow's design. The portion in front of the back brace will only add mass weight and effect the balance similar to a reflex geometry bow Again, look at the TSS Quadraflex and you'll see the same measuring points and the same 50% of the limb's length in front of the pivot point.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Here's a pic,, unknown origin, of a TSS Quadraflex.

Is the back portion of the upper riser not similar to the "back brace" of the Guardian?


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> It doesn't,, it's always deflexed,, at brace or full draw. If this bow didn't have the portion of the limbs and riser in front of the grip, do you think that it would measure any different? Forget what you see in front of the back brace (which serves the same purpose as a regular limb pivot) and see that the back of the limbs is the only thing relevant in measuring the geometry of this bow's design. The portion in front of the back brace will only add mass weight and effect the balance similar to a reflex geometry bow Again, look at the TSS Quadraflex and you'll see the same measuring points and the same 50% of the limb's length in front of the pivot point.


Good point. THERE! Now was it that bad??:tongue: 

I am just wondering, though, if that is correct. Does the front attachment point no longer matter? It does seem that the majority of the pressure is against the slide/guide in the limbs, though.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Here's some more Quads..


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

XP35 said:


> Good point. THERE! Now was it that bad??:tongue:
> 
> I am just wondering, though, if that is correct. Does the front attachment point no longer matter? It does seem that the majority of the pressure is against the slide/guide in the limbs, though.


Its not a slide but it is a rocker.


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> So it's still reflexed any way you look at it. Just because the BH "SEEMS" to increase at full draw means nothing


. 

No it's not because you are not understanding deflex geometry.....everything from the center pivot forward is irrelevant with regards to the actual bow geometry. You measure riser geometry on these bows the exact same way you do on any other conventional bow. Throat of the grip to the rearward contact/pivot point of the limb to the limb pocket. It does not look like one but consider the center pivot as a continuation of a long limb pocket that starts at the forward truss and extends to the center pivot itself.

The bow is a deflex geometry. I don't see why this part is even up for debate.........it is what it is. Its a deflexed bow.
This isn't a guess or an opinion, the bow is a deflexed design. at rest, at full draw whatever. 



> Originally Posted by LeesburgGamecoc
> These guys (Merlin) think that brace height is the only factor in resisting torque, as explained here:
> 
> http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk/article...r Deflex.pdf
> ...


Apparently Mathews doesn't agree with them.....here's there blurb about the Apex and it's attributes. Why not just say that the bow has a higher brace height? Why even mention deflex riser? Why because deflex vs. reflex and their inherent affects on potential accuracy is part of archery history. This isn't some new concept that Bowtech invented. Deflex riser geometry has merit with regards to the ease at which a shooter can impart torque. That isn't even debatable, its a long time known fact.

_"Conquest Apex
The Conquest Apex is built in the proven tradition of previous Conquest models, which have been responsible for more professional tournament victories than any other bow in history!

Historically, deflex riser designs offered forgiving shooting characteristics, but at the cost of speed. Not anymore! The new Apex deflex riser on the Conquest Apex represents another Mathews engineering breakthrough giving you an 8-inch brace height and 310 (approx.) fps (IBO)!"_


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

XP35 said:


> Good point. THERE! Now was it that bad??:tongue:
> 
> I am just wondering, though, if that is correct. Does the front attachment point no longer matter? It does seem that the majority of the pressure is against the slide/guide in the limbs, though.



If the front attachment point was 4 inches shorter, the geometry would still be measured the same and many more people would accept some of our suggestions on how a bow's geometry is measured:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

LOL, actually I was the one who pointed out the TSS on this thread.....


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

You could take one of those old TSS Quads pictured above and put on a set of shorter limbs and build a "front brace" to make it a parallel limb bow and the riser geometry would still be measured exactly the same, correct?


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Don't get me wrong, I'm following you, guys. But is it not only considered deflexed if the LIMB BUTTS, not the back of the limb pocket, is ahead of the throat of the grip?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> LOL, actually I was the one who pointed out the TSS on this thread.....




Hmm, see post number 36:wink:


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

XP35 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm following you, guys. But is it not only considered deflexed if the LIMB BUTTS, not the back of the limb pocket, is ahead of the throat of the grip?



Pivot point of the limbs,, you could have 8 inch "butts" and it would still measure the same. How do you measure the tiller on your bow?


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Gee, its amazing. Unbelievable.

Ok, lets try again. Take an allegiance, put a short steel stabilizer on it so it weighs and balances the same as a Guardian, and has the same brace height.

Put a pivot at the grip of the Allegiance, and a pivot at the grip of the Guardian. Draw both of them. They are both now mechanically the same as far as grip torque. The Guardian brace does absolutely nothing to cause the pivot point to be any different than the Allegiance. The strings on both are attached at the end of the limbs. Obviously functionally the same as regards grip torque. The Guardian is no more reflex or deflex than the Allegiance.

Just don't see any mystery.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Pivot point of the limbs,, you could have 8 inch "butts" and it would still measure the same. How do you measure the tiller on your bow?


But that is not how reflex/deflex is measured, right?:wink: That is just an arbitrary point to measure from/to. Oh, and did you mean 8" limb pockets?

Just food for thought in the name of discussion......


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Yes, 8 inch limb pockets,, like the 6 or so inch (non limb pockets) of the Guardian.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

My mistake Gimp, you get full credit for that one. I thought you had responded after my post 88.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Gee, its amazing. Unbelievable.
> 
> Ok, lets try again. Take an allegiance, put a short steel stabilizer on it so it weighs and balances the same as a Guardian, and has the same brace height.
> 
> ...


And again its not amystery it works because of the point of enitial limb load.


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

> The Guardian is no more reflex or deflex than the Allegiance.
> 
> Just don't see any mystery


.

Ok, LOL..........straight Archery 101 here. Tell me where you measure reflex / deflex on ANY bow.

This is a basic definition not an interpretation.......where do you measure riser geometry?


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Tell you what Gimp, take your TSS and secure the limbs at the forward point where they are, same as all other bows. Cut off the brace. Now look at it. Whatcha got? 

A BOW THAT WILL PIVOT AROUND THE GRIP EXACTLY THE SAME. 

THE GEOMETRY IS EXACTLY THE SAME, GRIP, LIMBS, STRING ON END OF LIMBS.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Gee, you guys make me tired. Thats it, I will let you play amongst yourselves, its not possible to make it any clearer than that.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Tell you what Gimp, take your TSS and secure the limbs at the forward point where they are, same as all other bows. Cut off the brace. Now look at it. Whatcha got?
> 
> A BOW THAT WILL PIVOT AROUND THE GRIP EXACTLY THE SAME.
> 
> ...


But you just cut off the brace..... Nolonger a deflex.....:wink:


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Matt / PA said:


> .
> 
> Ok, LOL..........straight Archery 101 here. Tell me where you measure reflex / deflex on ANY bow.
> 
> This is a basic definition not an interpretation.......where do you measure riser geometry?


It's the front of the limb pockets/limb butts in relation to the throat of the grip. NOT the back of the limb pocket...even if it is airy and 6"+ long.:wink: 

I was also just thinking (I know...it's dangerous and it hurts sometimes:tongue that unless there is a stop on the limb to prevent the rocker from sliding back to the cam the load is NOT fully on that rocker, but still prying up against the limb bolt at the front. Right? Is there something, besides the arc of the limb of course, to prevent this?

Do I win a cookie or something?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Tell you what Gimp, take your TSS and secure the limbs at the forward point where they are, same as all other bows. Cut off the brace. Now look at it. Whatcha got?
> 
> A BOW THAT WILL PIVOT AROUND THE GRIP EXACTLY THE SAME.
> 
> ...


 If you cut off the "back brace" which in this case on the TSS is the ends of the riser and weld on a "front brace" to attach the front of the limb to,, you would have one very reflexed bow.:wink:


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

XP35 said:


> It's the front of the limb pockets/limb butts in relation to the throat of the grip. NOT the back of the limb pocket...even if it is airy and 6"+ long.:wink:
> 
> I was also just thinking (I know...it's dangerous and it hurts sometimes:tongue that unless there is a stop on the limb to prevent the rocker from sliding back to the cam the load is NOT fully on that rocker, but still prying up against the limb bolt at the front. Right? Is there something, besides the arc of the limb of course, to prevent this?
> 
> Do I win a cookie or something?


Buzzz wrong!

Look at the design they are fastened to the rocker. I beleave the pivot arm only moves 1/8th of an inch


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

:deadhorse


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

XP35 said:


> It's the front of the limb pockets/limb butts in relation to the throat of the grip. NOT the back of the limb pocket...even if it is airy and 6"+ long.:wink:
> 
> I was also just thinking (I know...it's dangerous and it hurts sometimes:tongue that unless there is a stop on the limb to prevent the rocker from sliding back to the cam the load is NOT fully on that rocker, but still prying up against the limb bolt at the front. Right? Is there something, besides the arc of the limb of course, to prevent this?
> 
> Do I win a cookie or something?


 Do you really think that there is not a stop to prevent the limbs from shifting or moving in any direction on the back brace rocker?


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

:thumbs_up


matforme said:


> :deadhorse


Just more haters hate'n


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

elkreaper said:


> Buzzz wrong!
> 
> Look at the design they are fastened to the rocker. I beleave the pivot arm only moves 1/8th of an inch


Hey Reaper, OBT is trying to claim your title bestowed upon you a couple days ago.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Do you really think that there is not a stop to prevent the limbs from shifting or moving in any direction on the back brace rocker?


Have you had one in your hand to tell me if there is or not?


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

matforme said:


> Hey Reaper, OBT is trying to claim your title bestowed upon you a couple days ago.


Ya he tried another time acouple hours after my crowning!


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Who are you guys referring to as haters?????


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

XP35 said:


> Have you had one in your hand to tell me if there is or not?


 You answer my question first and I'll answer your question


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Who are you guys referring to as haters?????


 Not you,, you're cool hoot:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Well, I started to say, that TRICK, pardon the pun, won't work on me. I own 2 Diamonds and 2 Bowtechs, more bows than any other company.

Although this crowd may claim the Diamonds don't count the way its going.

Answer my example Gimp. Somebody with some fancy programming draw a TSS, cut off the brace so the limbs are secured in front and are in exactly the same place. Now draw that bow, and superimpose it on the original TSS also at full draw.

Notice that the bowstring comes from the cams the same on both bows, and the grip is in exactly the same place.

Now tell us, WHY will the bow spin around the grip more or less with one or the other? THE GEOMETRY AND GRIP POSITION AND STRING IS EXACTLY THE SAME. There is no difference in torque. Can't be, its the same.

Whether the brace is there or not makes no difference, it will pivot the same with either.

You guys really can't see that?????


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

If you cut the riser ends off on the TSS bow and fixed the limbs further down the riser, shortening the riser and decreasing the deflex, you would be changing the geometry of that bow the way geometry is measured.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Whether the brace is there or not makes no difference said:


> The point is were the bow is bracing its elasticity against your hand. Deflex it is behind and reflex it is infront. If it is braced from the front The force required to torque the bow is alot less than if it is behind.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Everybody that is arguing their is no advantage to the new design has yet to shoot the bow. I suggest shooting it and then make your judgement. Same way with Tricks some guys will argue this and argue that but you see very few doubters that have actually used them. 

This crowd is way to tough for me
:frusty: 

Anyone Hard headed


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Gimp, I didn't shorten the bow at all. Still exactly the same axle to axle. Still exactly the same brace height. Cams in exactly the same place, limbs in exactly the same place, string in exactly the same place, grip in exactly the same place with both bows. You move the grip of the Guardian however, you move the grip of the Allegiance however, both bows will move exactly the same. The Guardian brace does absolutely nothing in this regard.

I never said the Guardian wouldn't shoot great. Just pointed out that in regard to torque the Allegiance was equally great.

You really don't see it.

Thats it for good for me, can't make it any clearer than that. Carry on.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Your only looking at the bow in 2/d now add the 3rd axis to understand


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Sorry, got to go watch the PBR Finals:tongue: 
Go Wiley Peterson!!


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

You can look at it in all the Ds you want, still the same, everything still in the same place as stated above.

And if you run tests like I said you will obviously see there is no difference since the geometry relating to torque is exactly the same.

You gotta take off the blinders and let the chips fall where they may to see the truth. You guys don't want to do that.

I give up on you.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

I just checked my sons micro adrenilin set at 35#(deflex) against my allegance set at 70# (reflex)Guess which one is easier to torque? 

My allegance is by a longshot! Even though it is 35# heavier! And the Browning has a shorter bh!


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I give up on you.


Are you really giving up now?

I'm glad to know there is no difference in a reflex and deflex bow. You can torque them both the same and they will both miss the target 

Maybe I need to get one of them Hooters to take hunting with me. It might do a better job shooting a buck than I can


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> You can look at it in all the Ds you want, still the same, everything still in the same place as stated above.
> 
> And if you run tests like I said you will obviously see there is no difference since the geometry relating to torque is exactly the same.
> 
> ...


 Don't give up,, make us see the light


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## 3Dobsessed (Jun 11, 2004)

:boink: :argue: the last 3 1/2 pages just sounds like a bad marriage to me


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## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

so how do you change the weight on the Guardian/Commander? By sliding the pivot one way or the other on the split limb?


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Its impossible Gimp. If you can't take my example of a TSS, the same bow with or without the brace and see bow torque will be exactly the same, there is no way to MAKE you see the light. 

You have to want to see the light.

You guys don't want to.

Take Elkreaper. His last post about the Browning and the Allegiance has absolutely nothing to do with the geometry of a TSS or Guardian and torque.

Nothing more I can do. You're on your own.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Its impossible Gimp. If you can't take my example of a TSS, the same bow with or without the brace and see bow torque will be exactly the same, there is no way to MAKE you see the light.
> 
> You have to want to see the light.
> 
> ...


No it has to do with reflex deflex


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Its impossible Gimp. If you can't take my example of a TSS, the same bow with or without the brace and see bow torque will be exactly the same, there is no way to MAKE you see the light.
> 
> You have to want to see the light.
> 
> ...


 Maybe you can think of another example that's easier understood than the others. I offered my senarios and thoughts on why it should make a difference in shootability in human hands and I think I'm correct. I'll just take a wait and see position from here:wink:


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

It has to do with where the rear most attaching point of the limb is in relation to the grip. The farther back of the grip it is, the more stable the bow is re: resistance to bow hand induced torque. When the pressure point (attachment point) is behind the grip it resists hand torque. When that point is in front of the grip, it amplifies hand torque.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

pdq 5oh said:


> It has to do with where the rear most attaching point of the limb is in relation to the grip. The farther back of the grip it is, the more stable the bow is re: resistance to bow hand induced torque. When the pressure point (attachment point) is behind the grip it resists hand torque. When that point is in front of the grip, it amplifies hand torque.


Yes were force is braced by the riser


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Well, its no big deal, it doesn't really make any difference.

I just thought I would share a bit of logic on the subject. Then I was amazed that nobody would follow my example and see the light. Still am. Instead just repeat phrases and "rules" instead of trying to envision what was going on and call it what it was.

Of course there was a bit of brand loyalty, what with the "haters" comments, which was amusing, with all the Bowtech bows I have.

Anyway, fascinating psychological experience, enjoyed it, later, back on the phone to Solingen.

Just going to have a great day being thankful I wasn't Galileo.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Many would not follow the example of one. One would not follow the example of many. Find the commonality in that.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, its no big deal, it doesn't really make any difference.
> 
> I just thought I would share a bit of logic on the subject. Then I was amazed that nobody would follow my example and see the light. Still am. Instead just repeat phrases and "rules" instead of trying to envision what was going on and call it what it was.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone categorized you as one of the haters, that thought never entered my mind anyway Haters are very easy to spot:wink: As conventional measuring standards go, this new bow design ends up being measured as a deflex riser bow. Whether or not it ACTS like a deflex riser bow is yet to be seen but the guys at BowTech say it does so until we get them in out hands, I'll just accept their conclusion


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Who gives a damn if it's reflex or deflex as long as the bows shoot good and I'm sure they will as all Bowtechs do. How 'bout changing the subject.


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## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

Jhorne said:


> Who gives a damn if it's reflex or deflex as long as the bows shoot good and I'm sure they will as all Bowtechs do. How 'bout changing the subject.



I agree.once we get these bows in our hands then we'll have something to talk about...like how smooth,quiet,accurate and fast they are:tongue:


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

Gimpster.... that was my EXACT point in my posts a couple of pages back. It probably is very deflex going by conventional measuring standards. Standards that were created to categorize bows with relatively straight risers, and arced limbs..... not the c-shaped risers and parallel limbs we have today. I think that some of the "deflex and reflex" methodology gets thrown out the window when going to extrame parallel limb bows....and the main contributor to "forgiveness and shootability" is brace height.

Also... the torque applied to a grip only matters once the sting is released and while the bow is firing (obviously). So I stand by my center of mass (inertia) argument from several pages back.

I also see no engineering reason as to WHY the furtherest (word?) most point back on the limb pocket matters a hill of beans when determining reflex or deflex geometry..... especially considering parallel limb bows.

My 2 cents...

-ZA



walks with a gi said:


> As conventional measuring standards go, this new bow design ends up being measured as a deflex riser bow. Whether or not it ACTS like a deflex riser bow is yet to be seen but the guys at BowTech say it does so until we get them in out hands, I'll just accept their conclusion


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

IMO, a reflex geometry design can build up torque during the draw cycle and holding weight(into the limbs and cams) that can slightly effect the position that your bow's sight will settle on the target. At the shot, the built up torque (ever so slight it may be) in a reflex design can impart lateral string oscillation, more so than a deflex design.

An example would be one bow with a reflex geometry that at full draw, torques the sight position to the right. In reality, the string's position would also be to the right of a static condition and the cable rod would point to the left of static condition. 
With a deflex design, the pressure point of the grip is ahead of the limb fulcrums or pivot points and torque at full draw is minimized because the natural tendency of the limbs being pulled in line with the pressure point of the grip. All this considering that both bows are designed to have the center of the grip in line with the limbs, center of the riser and string track centered as well.

Take a 12 inch piece of heavy wire and bend it in the middle so that the ends are 1/2 inch out of line with the middle. Next, take a 30 inch piece of string and tie it on each end. Hold the wire in the middle at the bend and pull slightly on the center of the string like a bow and you'll see that the wire naturally wants to position the bend farthest from the ends of the wire and where you'll pulling on the "bow string".

Rotate the wire so that the ends are pointing away from you and pull on the string. You'll see that the ends of the "bow" want to rotate and point back at you. Try as you want to keep the wire "bow" from rotating and you'll find that it will always pull back to align the bend in the middle of the "bow", the farthest away from your "string".


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## woodrowadams (Aug 19, 2006)

I AM getting a new bow this year, goin back to longer ATA and more BH. I just like the built in forgiveness factor. Seriously interested in the new Constitution vs. Septor 4, personal shoot-off to happen as soon as local pro-shop gets em in. Keep ya posted.


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## riftsawn (Jul 10, 2006)

I have enjoyed this whole reflexed / deflexed argument, and can see both sides of the argument. I would like to see someone mount an example of each type of bow into a rotating fixture like a steering wheel for example. Then hold each of the bows at full draw with a release with a rotating head and measure the torque is required to rotate the riser 5 degrees off of 0.


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

It is a good discussion (for the most part, minus the haters) on deflex/reflex. I really would like to shoot one of these bows with a sight and group some arrows before I bought one, and see if I can see a difference in grouping in that and with my Tribute. Unfortunately, I don't know of a Pro shop that lets you do that. (Anybody in northern Virginia going to have a Guardian soon?) My Tribute is not a good bow, it is a great bow, so I need to see a quantifiable difference before I gave that up to upgrade. I think brace height is an important factor in resistance to torque, and thus forgiveness, so I want to make sure that the added deflex in the new bows more than makes up for the reduction in brace height in going from the Tribute to a Guardian. You have got to hand it to Bowtech for not just following along, but for innovating.


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

Gimpy... that was a beautiful description of brace height and it's advantages.... :wink: :thumb:

You'd need to bend the ends of the wires in your example back to simulate the limbs and the geometry where the string actually attaches. I've never seen a bow where the strings were attached at the limb pockets!:wink: 

I'm not hating on the bow, I think the CP Bowtech's look cool. I don't like the smaller brace height that my Tribute, so I highly doubt that I'd actually entertain one, especially since it's the same speed as my Tribute... no Max-4.... etc. If in 2008, they make the gaurdian as fast as the Ally or better, give me a little more brace height and give me Max-1.... I'd get one for sure!:thumb: If the sucker is the same speed as my Tribute (81% efficency) and it's at 86% efficency, but with a smaller brace height, the draw force curve must be less aggressive..... gimme the same force curve as my current Tribute, same brace, and that 86% efficency and she'd be cooking! Can you say 330+ fps.. EASY! 

-ZA



walks with a gi said:


> IMO, a reflex geometry design can build up torque during the draw cycle and holding weight(into the limbs and cams) that can slightly effect the position that your bow's sight will settle on the target. At the shot, the built up torque (ever so slight it may be) in a reflex design can impart lateral string oscillation, more so than a deflex design.
> 
> An example would be one bow with a reflex geometry that at full draw, torques the sight position to the right. In reality, the string's position would also be to the right of a static condition and the cable rod would point to the left of static condition.
> With a deflex design, the pressure point of the grip is ahead of the limb fulcrums or pivot points and torque at full draw is minimized because the natural tendency of the limbs being pulled in line with the pressure point of the grip. All this considering that both bows are designed to have the center of the grip in line with the limbs, center of the riser and string track centered as well.
> ...


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

ZA206 said:


> Gimpy... that was a beautiful description of brace height and it's advantages.... :wink: :thumb:
> 
> You'd need to bend the ends of the wires in your example back to simulate the limbs and the geometry where the string actually attaches. I've never seen a bow where the strings were attached at the limb pockets!:wink:
> 
> ...


 If the Guardian is easier to pull than your Tribute, just shoot more draw weight:wink:


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

I already draw 70#.... it ain't the draw weight... it's the holding weight!:wink: I'd have no issues drawing a 100# bow, that's not an issue, I just don't feel like holding it. :embara: I'm a wuss you know....

My 57# longbow whups up on me after an hour of shooting.... that's for sure! 

-ZA




walks with a gi said:


> If the Guardian is easier to pull than your Tribute, just shoot more draw weight:wink:


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Careful blowies, It nearly made page two.


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## KELLY (Dec 20, 2002)

The hard part will be getting honest and intelleigent opinion on how the bows shoot. This would have to be from someone who does not the word bowtech in their name.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

KELLY said:


> The hard part will be getting honest and intelleigent opinion on how the bows shoot. This would have to be from someone who does not the word bowtech in their name.


Or a WHOLE bunch that don't.:tongue:


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## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*I can do it! Well, maybe not.*

Hey, I am honest. I am at least able to write well enough to make believe I'm intelligent at times. I don't have bowtech in my name or whatever that guy said. See, I can do it! PM for my address and send me some bows to compare. :darkbeer: Oh, yeah. I guess you want someone who can really shoot well.  On second thought, maybe you'd better find somebody else.


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*its 26 pages?*

What is the record for a thread?

This one has 26 pages!


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## Riverghost (Oct 11, 2004)

Yeah and 24 of them are worthless as this post:tongue:


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## bowsmith (Sep 17, 2002)

411 pages - Song Title Game in Mutantville

Good job keeping the debate civil guys. :wink:


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## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

Been gone for a week.Bring me up to date.What have I missed.


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## bowsmith (Sep 17, 2002)

t8ter said:


> Been gone for a week.Bring me up to date.What have I missed.


Well T8t...long story short...are the new bows Reflex or Deflex, and does it make a difference? Or is Brace Height more important?


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## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

Oh.Thanks bowsmith.T8 dont care about that stuff.Me just wants a bow that hits were me aiming.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Deflex Geometry of Guardian*

The red line shows back of the piviot points on the Guardian. Notice where the grip is in relation to the line. It is out front, thus giving way to Deflex geometry.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Reflex design of Old Glory*

Check out the red line in relation to the grip on the Old Glory! This is no doubt a reflex riser. I hope people can see the differences now. I know it is crude, but I can definately see the difference in the the two designs.:wink:


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> IMO, a reflex geometry design can build up torque during the draw cycle and holding weight(into the limbs and cams) that can slightly effect the position that your bow's sight will settle on the target. At the shot, the built up torque (ever so slight it may be) in a reflex design can impart lateral string oscillation, more so than a deflex design.
> 
> An example would be one bow with a reflex geometry that at full draw, torques the sight position to the right. In reality, the string's position would also be to the right of a static condition and the cable rod would point to the left of static condition.
> With a deflex design, the pressure point of the grip is ahead of the limb fulcrums or pivot points and torque at full draw is minimized because the natural tendency of the limbs being pulled in line with the pressure point of the grip. All this considering that both bows are designed to have the center of the grip in line with the limbs, center of the riser and string track centered as well.
> ...


Ok lets go with this. Now pretend the wire is forked at the ends, and the string is attached at both points, top and bottom. Is the wire going to comfortably sit with the bend facing you or away from you??

Away from you. Adding the second contact point isn't changing much.

Here is what I dislike about this whole argument/situation.

There are 1, maaaayybe 2 people in this entire thread that have seen, let alone shot this bow. Both of which work for Bowtech or are sponsored, so their opinons will be biased. And yet, there are atleast 20 people claiming that this will be way more forgiving than anything else with a comparable BH.

Please don't take this as bashing, but it honestly seems to me that whatever Bowtech claims, people will believe. This is just as bad as the Mathews Sheep. Think about what your saying. How can we make an unbiased analysis of how forgiving a bow geometry will be by looking at a picture (a bad one at that) online. Everyone seems to be a guru, yet no one has even laid eyes on it yet  

What it comes down to, IMHO, is brand loyalty. Why people defend these companies so much, I will never know. But anytime anyone asks a question that in anyway questions what Bowtech is feeding us, you all take it as a personal attack.

This design may give you a very very slight increase in forgiveness, but I doubt most will be able to notice it. Let's face it, this isn't turning a 7" brace height bow into a 9" one, no matter what Bowtech tells me.

I guess me and Hoot are alone in the corner on this one. Ah well. You can't convert the masses.......


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

scottland said:


> Ok lets go with this. Now pretend the wire is forked at the ends, and the string is attached at both points, top and bottom. Is the wire going to comfortably sit with the bend facing you or away from you??
> 
> Away from you. Adding the second contact point isn't changing much.
> 
> ...



Read the first 3 letters of my post you quoted,, "IMO",, which is exactly that and my theory of why I think this design has merit in being "more shootable". No one from BowTech is coaching me or telling me what to say, just my own personal observations of various compound bow designs that I've had the pleasure to have studied for the last 35 years:wink: 

You're own "wire bow" example,,

"Ok lets go with this. Now pretend the wire is forked at the ends, and the string is attached at both points, top and bottom. Is the wire going to comfortably sit with the bend facing you or away from you??

Away from you. Adding the second contact point isn't changing much."

Is exactly what I've concluded in looking at this design, "the second contact point isn't changing much" and also what Matt PA said that "you can erase everything in front of the back braces."

The limb and riser material in front of the back brace is simply mass weight added in front of the pressure point of the grip that has everything to do with effecting the balance of the bow and nothing to do with effecting the deflex geometry of this riser. If anything, I'd say that the forward positioning mass of the limbs and riser would tend to act more like short stabilizers than anything. Extend the limbs outward 12 more inches and I'd also bet that the "wand" effect of a stabilizer would feel more appearant, though it would not be very practical


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## vito t (Oct 31, 2004)

*!!!!!*



JOE PA said:


> Hey, I am honest. I am at least able to write well enough to make believe I'm intelligent at times. I don't have bowtech in my name or whatever that guy said. See, I can do it! PM for my address and send me some bows to compare. :darkbeer: Oh, yeah. I guess you want someone who can really shoot well.  On second thought, maybe you'd better find somebody else.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

You're wasting your time Scott. They refuse to let themselves see anything other than whats advertised.

But since I am a nice guy, I will give it one more shot.

Bowtech Dave, draw us another pic of the Guardian at full draw just like the first one. Now erase the brace so it would be like a normal bow with the limbs attached just at the front. Put both pics side by side.

SEE????????

There is no difference in how you will torque the bow. 

If you still don't see it, do this. Take your bow and grip it. Now take your other hand and grasp the top cam and wiggle it left and right. SEE??? As you wiggle the cam left and right the grip wiggles left and right. Now, wiggle the grip left and right. SEE??? As you wiggle the grip left and right the cam wiggles left and right.

Now do you see? Go back to the pics of both bows at full draw. You are holding the bowstring, and it is attached to the cams. Wiggle the bowstring left and right and you are moving the cams left and right. What happens when you move the cams left and right? As we saw above, the GRIP MOVES LEFT AND RIGHT. On both bows!!!!!!!!!!!! You gotta see that, its a slam dunk. 

And, obviously, like you yourself demonstrated with your bow, when you wiggle the grip the cams wiggle. The cams wiggle, the bowstring wiggles. 

ITS THE SAME WITH BOTH BOWS. 

Having the brace or not, moving the grip will move the limb tips the same on both bows. 

Having the brace or not, moving the limb tips will move the grip the same on both bows.

You can't not see that.

If you have one eye open just a tiny tiny crack, you have to see that.

I rest my case.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Now do you see? Go back to the pics of both bows at full draw. You are holding the bowstring, and it is attached to the cams. Wiggle the bowstring left and right and you are moving the cams left and right. What happens when you move the cams left and right? As we saw above, the GRIP MOVES LEFT AND RIGHT. On both bows!!!!!!!!!!!! You gotta see that, its a slam dunk.
> 
> And, obviously, like you yourself demonstrated with your bow, when you wiggle the grip the cams wiggle. The cams wiggle, the bowstring wiggles.
> 
> ...


And as long as any bow is hand drawn, this can and will happen (hence the invention of the Hooter Shooter).


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Torque?*



OLDHOOTOWL said:


> You're wasting your time Scott. They refuse to let themselves see anything other than whats advertised.
> 
> But since I am a nice guy, I will give it one more shot.
> 
> ...


My point wasn't that this bow may or may not have the same torque induced. I never mentioned torque in my original post.:laugh: 

I simply put the pics up to show there the grip is in relation to what I consider to be the back of the limb pocket ,all be it a long one, in relation to the grip. In this instance I can see that the riser gives way to a deflex design. I know you can see that. I am not trying to show it any other way.:doh: 

It is just how I see it. I am not concerned with the torque issue as very few have actually shot this bow. When we finally get our hands on it let the shooters decide for themselves which bow is more forgiving and which one appear to have more/less torque. You have your bows that feel great to you and I have mine. That's the great thing about this sport growing like it has... We have the FREEDOM to choose and make decisions for ourselves on what feels good or not. IMO.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

If you are not interested in torque, then why are you interested in a label such as deflex?????

What good is the deflex label if it means nothing???

As far as everybody deciding which bow "feels" or "appears" to have less torque, thats why science demands consistent, controlled, repeatable tests to show the truth. Not "feelings".

My example showed the cold hard truth.

There is guaranteed to be those with brand bias who are going to shoot the bow and foam at the mouth about DEFLEX- NO TORQUE!!!!! Same as those with brand bias do the same thing shooting Mathews and Hoyts and all the others.

Psychics make a living convincing people of what they "feel". 

You got a choice, you can follow psychics, or you can follow logic and truth.

Its your call.


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> There is guaranteed to be those with brand bias who are going to shoot the bow and foam at the mouth about DEFLEX- NO TORQUE!!!!! Same as those with brand bias do the same thing shooting Mathews and Hoyts and all the others.
> .



Enjoy the "brand bias" my friend, because it is earned through a record of success. There may be no other product on this board that enjoys more "brand bias" than Slick Trick broadheads. To the loyalists, they are gold and there is nothing that can even approach them. Heck, I even drank the cool-aid and am now a Slick Trick shooter (thanks ZA). If you came out with a new "improved" head tommorrow, the ST brand loyalists would be lined up talking it up, and getting in their pre-orders. That type of loyalty comes from a record of performance and delivering on the promises. Slick Trick delivers, and enjoys the benefit of the doubt to a certian extent. Bowtech has the same credibility with those who shoot the bows. They have delivered performance year after year thorughout their short existance. Thus, since their record indicates that they actually do deliver what they say they will in new innovation (i.e. the binary cam), they enjoy the benefit of the doubt that what they say about the bow will be true, because they have delivered such in the past. If they strike out on it, then they will lose it, just like you would if you put out a crap head. So, don't talk down brand loyalty too bad, as it really helps your company, and it helps many quality bow companies, but the loyalty is earned through performing. People naturally assume that Slick Tricks will perform, because they always have (despite a few little issues), and people give that same assumption to Bowtech. Earned, not given, and not something that can't be gone overnight. The proof in the pudding will be when people get these bows and shoot them. The record of performance of the company indicates that it will be successful, and thus the natural tendancy of people to believe that it will be successful. That is the reaction you see. If it doesn't work, we'll all know and they lose some of what they have built up in credibility.


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Hahahahaa*

:kev: 
:moviecorn 
:frusty: :frusty: 
:boink: 
:nono: 
:banplease


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

LeesburgGamecoc said:


> Enjoy the "brand bias" my friend, because it is earned through a record of success. There may be no other product on this board that enjoys more "brand bias" than Slick Trick broadheads. To the loyalists, they are gold and there is nothing that can even approach them. Heck, I even drank the cool-aid and am now a Slick Trick shooter (thanks ZA). If you came out with a new "improved" head tomorrow, the ST brand loyalists would be lined up talking it up, and getting in their pre-orders. That type of loyalty comes from a record of performance and delivering on the promises. Slick Trick delivers, and enjoys the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent. Bowtech has the same credibility with those who shoot the bows. They have delivered performance year after year throughout their short existence. Thus, since their record indicates that they actually do deliver what they say they will in new innovation (i.e. the binary cam), they enjoy the benefit of the doubt that what they say about the bow will be true, because they have delivered such in the past. If they strike out on it, then they will lose it, just like you would if you put out a crap head. So, don't talk down brand loyalty too bad, as it really helps your company, and it helps many quality bow companies, but the loyalty is earned through performing. People naturally assume that Slick Tricks will perform, because they always have (despite a few little issues), and people give that same assumption to Bowtech. Earned, not given, and not something that can't be gone overnight. The proof in the pudding will be when people get these bows and shoot them. The record of performance of the company indicates that it will be successful, and thus the natural tendency of people to believe that it will be successful. That is the reaction you see. If it doesn't work, we'll all know and they lose some of what they have built up in credibility.



Pretty good post!

I'll add that if BowTech did their R&D like I think they did when designing and prototyping this bow, and they are saying it's their "flagship" bow for the year, they probably have a very good idea of how they think it will go over to the general public. Actually shooting this design will be what it takes to convince anyone that they are right but there will still be some that won't accept it and I'm sure that will be fine with BowTech. You just can't please everyone and that's probably why they still have last year's technology available for '07:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Hey, brand bias is fine, if a company has put out good products in the past it is reasonable to figure they will probably do it again.

But let me recap. I have more bows from Bowtech than any other company, 4 to be exact, although it seems I am forgetting one that is at another place which would make it 5 if so. And I never ATTACKED Bowtech one iota in my posts on this thread. GO BACK AND READ. What we have here is a failure to communicate. I love that movie. If you go back and read my posts I never said the new bows wouldn't shoot great. Never said I wouldn't buy one. 

DID say that the Allegiance will be a great bow, and that I doubt the Guardian will sell better than it. DID say the Allegiance will shoot as well as the Guardian in regards to torque, and that the Guardian has no "deflex" advantage. DID say the Guardian brace would help with cam lean and limb twist and should have an advantage in limb reliability.

As I demonstrated, thats just the truth. Guys on this thread can be mad thats the case and call me a "hater" or otherwise jab at me. Can't help that.

Two things I have never understood.

People who don't want the truth.

People who want to hide the truth from others.

Shoot whatever you want and believe whatever you want.
My posts were for those people who appreciate the truth and want to be enlightened, same as any of my posts anywhere. If you are not one of those people, simply put me on ignore and enjoy believing whatever you enjoy believing. Like I said, glad I wasn't Galileo.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Hey, brand bias is fine, if a company has put out good products in the past it is reasonable to figure they will probably do it again.
> 
> But let me recap. I have more bows from Bowtech than any other company, 4 to be exact, although it seems I am forgetting one that is at another place which would make it 5 if so. And I never ATTACKED Bowtech one iota in my posts on this thread. GO BACK AND READ. What we have here is a failure to communicate. I love that movie. If you go back and read my posts I never said the new bows wouldn't shoot great. Never said I wouldn't buy one.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone has said or viewed your comments as attacking BowTech or degrading the company or products in any way. It's just a difference in opinion of how this thing MIGHT work or MIGHT NOT work and we all have the right to our opinions before anyone actually experiences it's shooting qualities. We'll all just have to wait and try one:wink: 
Hopefully, I'll get my vertebrae back from the butcher shop soon so I can find my Slick Trick:tongue:


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Helping Archers Out!*



OLDHOOTOWL said:


> If you are not interested in torque, then why are you interested in a label such as deflex?????
> 
> What good is the deflex label if it means nothing???
> 
> ...


Once again, this is why I hesitate to post anything on this board because everyone takes things too personally. I was merely showing how this bow culd be construde as a deflex design. Nothing more, nothing less. A few posts back someone said they couldn't see the deflex in the Guardian. I simply posted the pictures to show the easiest way I know to show how this bow is deflex in design.

I did not reply in regards to your MULTIPLE posts stating the same things about torque. People are going to believe what they believe. You either get it or you don't. Me personally, I don't care! As long as I like what I am shooting, which IS a BowTech, then I am happy. I will continue to try their bows out each and every year and make my own decisions as to the shootability of the bow the ME! 

OldHootowl, I am sorry if you are having such a hard time getting people to see things your way. I am not arguing with you on any points you have made. I was just trying to show things how I see them. You have your facts/opinions and I have mine. Can't we all just get along???:thumb:


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## TrackerTom (Sep 28, 2006)

Personally, I can't wait to see and shoot the Guardian. Although I was taken aback initially by its appearance, the novel architecture of this bow seems to reveal its true nature only at full draw. 

Form following function, the way it should, the way it must for optimal performance. It is only in the shooting that this bow will prove its design. I look forward to the test. :nod:


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## hoove (Feb 25, 2005)

man oh man, some people have just too much time on their hands!

I'm just anxious to try one for myself and hopefully have an end to all this hype and speculation.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL, experience is what tells us deflex geometry is more resistant to torque than reflex geometry. Not putting two bows in a shooting machine. The machine merely removes the human element from the equation. More people than machines shoot bows, on a regular basis. It has to do with the forces needed to torque a bow a given amount. With the limb pivot point behind the grip, more force is needed to torque the riser the same amount as a reflex riser design. Riser geometry being measured from the rear attaching point of the limb is the part you seem unable to accept. Given the rear attaching point on the Guardian being BEHIND the grip, deflex geometry is what you have. The rest is what experience has shown us to be the case re: deflex vs. reflex riser geometry. Leesburg makes some very good points re: your feeling on brand bias. BowTech make assertions about the forgiving nature of the Center Pivot design. Giving their track record a look will lend credence to these assertions. 

OLDHOOTOWL:
“My example showed the cold hard truth.”

How can you show the “cold hard truth” when you haven’t had either bow in your possession? Much less in a shooting machine.

“As I demonstrated, thats just the truth.”

Again, you have no facts to support your version of the “truth”. Having not shot the Guardian.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

hoove said:


> man oh man, some people have just too much time on their hands!
> 
> I'm just anxious to try one for myself and hopefully have an end to all this hype and speculation.



 Did you read all 1036 posts before posting this one? :wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Well Gimp, anybody reading these posts can see there are people upset with what I posted.

As far as having to actually shoot it to "feel" if it is deflex or not, again, that is for psychics. 

As I stated above: All anybody has to do is grip their bow and wiggle it and see the string move back and forth. Then figure if they had a brace to the middle of the limb and they gripped their bow and wiggled it, the string moves back and forth exactly the same. Absolutely no difference. Reflex or deflex, whatever you want to call it, no difference in torque with or without the brace.

Say what you want, theres no way guys out there aren't picking up their bows and trying that and seeing how simple it is.

If you wanted to believe otherwise, blame it on Gimp. He kept prodding me to show him the light, and I worked until I came up with so simple a demonstration anybody can see it. And you can bet guys out there do.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> As I stated above: All anybody has to do is grip their bow and wiggle it and see the string move back and forth. Then figure if they had a brace to the middle of the limb and they gripped their bow and wiggled it, the string moves back and forth exactly the same. Absolutely no difference. Reflex or deflex, whatever you want to call it, no difference in torque with or without the brace.


I have a bow that has 5 1/2" Brace height and one that has 8" brace height. When I do the OHootO wiggle test my 8" brace height bow moves the arrow more. I guess the 5 1/2" bow is less susceptible to torque and there by more forgiving 

I can tell you one thing. If my Guardian can get within 5 to 8 fps of my Allegiance and do it quieter, with less hand shock, as well as an easier draw (more effecient) that will be great. If somehow it is more consistent and tolerant of human error then that will be down right awesome.

Bowtech keeps up'ing the bar unlike several others that play follow the leader.


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

I haven't been reading this entire argument, so forgive me if this has already been covered. But my understanding of the advantage of a deflexed riser is the increased brace height. The Guardian, however, has a similar brace height to the Tribute ... in fact, slightly smaller. Can someone direct me to an explanation of reflex/deflex geometry that explains an advantage other than brace height? (That's a serious question ... no sarcasm.)

To me it appears that the advantage of the Guardian and center pivot design is efficiency (and that's certainly a nice advantage) and the center-track cams, and that seems to be getting lost in the whole deflex/torque discussion.


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

HOOT,

I have enjoyed reading your posts and everyone elses. I see what both sides are saying and I think I am with you. I believe that this design in theory should be a little more forgiving, but I don't believe that anyone will notice the difference IMO. Thats just my belief because as I have seen it explained it just doesn't do much. I look forward to shooting it to see how well it does. Do wish it could have kept the speeds from the aleg and trib though.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Good job Mean, rolleyes.

You don't follow instructions too well. As I said, if you put a brace to the middle of the 5 1/2" brace bows limbs and wiggle it will move exactly like it just did.

If you put a brace to the middle of the 8" brace bows limbs and wiggle it will move exactly like it just did.

CONGRATS. You just proved there is the same torque with or without the brace. With any bow, you will get the same torque with or without a brace. Its undeniable.

See, it wasn't hard was it?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

HJMinard said:


> I haven't been reading this entire argument, so forgive me if this has already been covered. But my understanding of the advantage of a deflexed riser is the increased brace height. The Guardian, however, has a similar brace height to the Tribute ... in fact, slightly smaller. Can someone direct me to an explanation of reflex/deflex geometry that explains an advantage other than brace height? (That's a serious question ... no sarcasm.)
> 
> To me it appears that the advantage of the Guardian and center pivot design is efficiency (and that's certainly a nice advantage) and the center-track cams, and that seems to be getting lost in the whole deflex/torque discussion.



Good idea, we'll cover that next


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Good job Mean, rolleyes.
> 
> You don't follow instructions too well. As I said, if you put a brace to the middle of the 5 1/2" brace bows limbs and wiggle it will move exactly like it just did.
> 
> ...


Will you go back to see if you can make your Slicks better than they are !!! :wink: :tongue:


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

With the grip being forward on a deflexed riser the entire bow is behind it. Picture a boomerang (I know, extreme, but it illustrates this nicely) with a string attached top and bottom like a bow. Pull, with the curve pointing away from you, and it only pulls straight back into your hand.

Now, turn the boomerang so it's facing the other way (curve pointing toward you) then pull the string. It WILL turn in your hand very easily. This simulates a reflexed riser. Simple.....


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Gary,
I know you know all the facts here, and undoubtedly have shot the bow to back all those cold hard facts up. I dont think anybody doubts the fact that torquing any bow is possible and will move the string similar amounts, but I also think it is a fact that some designs are more prone to torque (takes more pressure, etc. to torque the same amount) I am sure you are taking pressure measurements on the bows you are testing and finding no difference.

I thought you gave up this argument 2 pages ago I sure wish those blades would come in so you would have something else to do besides try and make a moot point.

I for one could care less if it is reflex/deflex. The other obvious advantages of the bows are enough to sell me, and I for one will make no concrete statements about them until I shoot them.

I have talked to others I trust and they were impressed, so I expect I will be too.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Always Jerry.

One question XP. 

You ever shot a bow with the limbs facing forward and the string on the other side of the bow?????????????????


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Good job Mean, rolleyes.
> 
> You don't follow instructions too well. As I said, if you put a brace to the middle of the 5 1/2" brace bows limbs and wiggle it will move exactly like it just did.
> 
> ...



Not at all, you're not supposed to wiggle your bow though. The Hooter Shooter wouldn't wiggle the bow either Different people may place their hand on the grip in hundreds of ways, right, left, up, or down and any combination of and that's where a design that's forgiving of pressure points on the grip will shine through:wink: 

I sure hope it does anyway


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> Will you go back to see if you can make your Slicks better than they are !!! :wink: :tongue:


Maybe Gary can add a dampenerukey:


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Always Jerry.
> 
> One question XP.
> 
> You ever shot a bow with the limbs facing forward and the string on the other side of the bow?????????????????


It's just a string on a boomerang! You can turn it any way you want. But the curve of the riser is the simulation.....geesh! It still pulls on the limb pockets without the limbs facing forward.....


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> You ever shot a bow with the limbs facing forward and the string on the other side of the bow?????????????????


But I don't think the string end points are the "pressure points" on a bow, but rather it's where the limbs flex.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

XP35 said:


> With the grip being forward on a deflexed riser the entire bow is behind it. Picture a boomerang (I know, extreme, but it illustrates this nicely) with a string attached top and bottom like a bow. Pull, with the curve pointing away from you, and it only pulls straight back into your hand.
> 
> Now, turn the boomerang so it's facing the other way (curve pointing toward you) then pull the string. It WILL turn in your hand very easily. This simulates a reflexed riser. Simple.....


 Another analogy would be to glue "limbs" on that backwards boomerang and then attach the string on the ends of the limbs and then pull on the string. It will also stay straight but if you pull hard enough, it will flex the pressure point where you're holding it with your hand, out of alignment with the string. Either the boomerang or the limbs will bend out of alignment from the static condition.

Cut this "reverse boomerang" with the "limbs" glued on out or cardboard and try it


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I just clearly explained that the brace has no effect on torque. You would think guys would be happy to learn something.

Glad to know you get it and its a moot point now.

Gimp, when you are talking about torqueing a bow, you are talking about lateral movement of the grip and string. Wiggling shows the braced limb and unbraced limb is the same. 

But a hooter shooter can be easily set up to demonstrate torqueing.

As to your cardboard boomerang and limb pockets and stuff, at full draw the bowstring has little stress on it, the stress is on the cables. The string is pulling on the cams on the end of the limbs, which are very stiff. Limb pockets have nothing to do with it.

On an archery forum you would think guys would like to learn, and when somebody shows them a simple fact they would appreciate it. 

Obviously that is not the case with many on this thread.

On to more productive ventures.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

You guys need to be out hunting more :tongue: :wink: :darkbeer:


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Jerry/NJ said:


> You guys need to be out hunting more :tongue: :wink: :darkbeer:


I would be, but my shoulders are killing me! I fell through some barn steps the day before the season opened and aggravated an old rotator cuff injury.:sad:


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

XP35 said:


> I would be, but my shoulders are killing me! I fell through some barn steps the day before the season opened and aggravated an old rotator cuff injury.:sad:


Dammmm.......you're supposed to do that during February so you can get off work during the lousy months, :wink: :tongue: Get well soon and get back out there.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> You guys need to be out hunting more :tongue: :wink: :darkbeer:


Jerry,
I am hunting as much as the Ol'man can take


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

meanv2 said:


> Jerry,
> I am hunting as much as the Ol'man can take


 I hear ya.......sucks to get older


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Jerry/NJ said:


> I hear ya.......sucks to get older


Amen to that. Walking a 1/2 mile or more packing a bow, stand, and decoy this time of year twice a day. Getting up at 4 am and going to bed late makes the age show up on you quick. Whoops back on subject!!

Can't wait to get my new Bowtech!!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Jerry/NJ said:


> You guys need to be out hunting more :tongue: :wink: :darkbeer:


 I've been out of the stand for more than 1 1/2 hours, it's only about 200 yards away


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> I've been out of the stand for more than 1 1/2 hours, it's only about 200 yards away


How nice!! I drove 15 miles tonight and walked a half mile.

That's my close place

In the morning if the wind holds I will go to my farther spot


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

I went pheasant hunting with my ben pearson recurve today! Cedar flu flu with g5 judos! 8 roosters up and one came home with me!

Oh ya!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Hootowl, you seem to be stuck on your theory with a bow at brace. Bows are shot from full draw. At full draw, a deflexed bow is physically harder to torque than a reflexed bow. Simple physics. The farther forward the pivot (pressure) point of the limb is, the longer the lever effect is. A longer lever makes it easier to move (torque) something. Less force is needed. 
XP35's example is actually pretty good in illustrating this. Like it, or not.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

elkreaper said:


> I went pheasant hunting with my ben pearson recurve today! Cedar flu flu with g5 judos! 8 roosters up and one came home with me!
> 
> Oh ya!


Congrats on the bird. My 7th grade teacher loved hunting pheasants with a bow. 

He got me started in archery many moons ago


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

pdq 5oh said:


> Hootowl, you seem to be stuck on your theory with a bow at brace. Bows are shot from full draw. At full draw, a deflexed bow is physically harder to torque than a reflexed bow. Simple physics. The farther forward the pivot (pressure) point of the limb is, the longer the lever effect is. A longer lever makes it easier to move (torque) something. Less force is needed.
> XP35's example is actually pretty good in illustrating this. Like it, or not.


SSHHHhhhh!! That doesn't follow Gary's wiggle test

Maybe he is busy packing Tricks?

Or on the phone arguing with Solingen why they should have already shipped more blades


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

pdq 5oh said:


> Hootowl, you seem to be stuck on your theory with a bow at brace. Bows are shot from full draw. At full draw, a deflexed bow is physically harder to torque than a reflexed bow. Simple physics. The farther forward the pivot (pressure) point of the limb is, the longer the lever effect is. A longer lever makes it easier to move (torque) something. Less force is needed.
> XP35's example is actually pretty good in illustrating this. Like it, or not.



How many bows are there now days with a 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 inch brace height with 1 1/2 inches of deflex geometry that shoot the speeds these do?


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

pdq 5oh said:


> Hootowl, you seem to be stuck on your theory with a bow at brace. Bows are shot from full draw. At full draw, a deflexed bow is physically harder to torque than a reflexed bow. Simple physics. The farther forward the pivot (pressure) point of the limb is, the longer the lever effect is. A longer lever makes it easier to move (torque) something. Less force is needed.
> XP35's example is actually pretty good in illustrating this. Like it, or not.


Yeah, I'm getting it now!! As I mentioned above, I originally thought that increased brace height was the only advantage of a deflexed riser, and the Guardian's brace height is no better than Tribute, et al.

XP35's boomerang example cleared it up for me ... and reviewing images of the Guardian and Tribute at full draw helps me understand where their "pressure points" are. I understand the potential advantage ... well done, AT-ers!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

walks with a gi said:


> How many bows are there now days with a 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 inch brace height with 1 1/2 inches of deflex geometry that shoot the speeds these do?


Two.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

No pdq, not stuck at all, you are the one, along with others, who are hell bent on promoting the brace makes the bow deflex and harder to torque.

As to full draw, obviously you didn't read my last post which described a bow at full draw. Others can go back and read it and see you just don't read. No wonder you can't understand.

And your "simple physics" comment is funny, since its my simple physics example that everybody out there can perform with their bows and prove to themselves that the brace has no effect on torque.

One more time, for those out there who simply want to understand something about the geometry and performance of a bow, and who aren't interested in promoting something.

Grip your bow. Take hold of the cam with the other hand. Wiggle the grip left and right. Notice the cam wiggles left and right. Wiggle the cam left and right. Notice the grip wiggles left and right. Torque demonstrated, plain and simple. 

Now, you draw your bow with the string. What is the string connected to? Why THE CAMS of course. If the cams move the string moves. If you wiggle the string the cams move. 

Like it or not, when guys draw their bows, they can see that the string is pulling on the CAMS AT THE END OF THE LIMBS. You can't fool them into thinking the bowstring is attached to the limb pockets, or the limb brace. 

They can clearly see the bowstring is pulling on the cams on the end of the limbs no matter if a limb brace is present or not.

They can clearly see that the limbs are still with or without the brace, and moving the grip moves the cams and string, or moving the cams and string moves the grip. NO MATTER IF THERE IS A LIMB BRACE OR NOT.

At full draw, there is little pressure on the bowstring. Its called letoff. The great majority of the stress is on the cables. This has nothing to do with whether there is a limb brace or not. Limbs are very stiff. String moves, grip moves. Grip moves, string moves. It doesn't make any difference what kind of spagetti shape is in between or where the limb cups are.

If you move the grip at brace or full draw, the effect is the same. Grip moves, cams and string moves. Cams and string moves, grip moves. 

NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH A LIMB BRACE.

Guys out there can test their bows and clearly see if they bolted a limb brace on it and tested it wouldn't make any difference in how the grip moved the cams and string, and how the cams and strings moved the grip.

Draw lines, make cardboard boomerangs, talk definitions of deflex, it doesn't make any difference. Guys out there are still going to see what I demonstrated.

Brace or full draw, no difference pdq.

As far as me posting here, I have as much right as anybody else to post whenever and however I feel, until Terry Martin tells me otherwise. When he does I will be glad to go elsewhere.

Tell you this though, I don't know him well, but I am certain he knows everything I said here and is sitting back laughing at you guys. But he knows as well as I its not because you can't see, its because you are bent on promoting the bows with the deflex angle.

Which is a shame, as was said before, there are other real aspects to the design that should prove to be a real advantage, such as limb reliability. 

Question is, what is AT for? Is it just to promote products to guys, or is it to study the truth about design? I know those who are promoting the deflex angle are mad and will knife Tricks down the road. I don't care. Selling the most heads I can is not my first ambition. I care about the truth and have a passion for design, and enjoy discussing design with others WHO ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH, AND NOT JUST PROMOTING SOMETHING.

Next time somebody asks why more manufacturers don't participate on forums, I am going to fall out of my chair laughing.


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Younge Buck yet!*



meanv2 said:


> Jerry,
> I am hunting as much as the Ol'man can take



Meanv2,

I beleive you're just bull jivin'! Looks like you were getting around just fine in that Mulie PIC! LOL!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

HJMinard said:


> Yeah, I'm getting it now!! As I mentioned above, I originally thought that increased brace height was the only advantage of a deflexed riser, and the Guardian's brace height is no better than Tribute, et al.
> 
> XP35's boomerang example cleared it up for me ... and reviewing images of the Guardian and Tribute at full draw helps me understand where their "pressure points" are. I understand the potential advantage ... well done, AT-ers!


 My theory is that lateral torque can be built up in the limbs and cams easier with a reflex design during the draw and at holding weight than a deflex. Those that shoot a back tension and pull hard into the wall will probably store more lateral torque into the limbs and cams on a reflex bow than those that don't.



IMO


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> No pdq, not stuck at all, you are the one, along with others, who are hell bent on promoting the brace makes the bow deflex and harder to torque.
> 
> As to full draw, obviously you didn't read my last post which described a bow at full draw. Others can go back and read it and see you just don't read. No wonder you can't understand.
> 
> ...


You need to go get those broadheads shippin as everyone complainin that your slackin! Stick with something that you do know. No matter howmany times people explain why a deflex riser works how it does you simply just can't see it thats no ones problem but your own. Bh is forgiving for its own reasons mainly it shortens the impulse cycle also if you are torqueing the bow it shortens the moment of angle. Deflex risered bows are forgiving for a whole seperate reason- where the moment arms brace against the riser making the bow torque resistant.. It is simple, but you refuse to even think about it as you must be the only person in the world who knows anything.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Hootowl, you're beginning to take this personally. Not sure what evoked this response.

"As far as me posting here, I have as much right as anybody else to post whenever and however I feel, until Terry Martin tells me otherwise. When he does I will be glad to go elsewhere."

I don't remember questioning your right to post on AT.

"I know those who are promoting the deflex angle are mad and will knife Tricks down the road. I don't care."

Two reasons not to worry. I'm not mad, and I shoot Stingers. So I have no experience with your broadheads. Good or bad. Thus have no reason to "knife" them. Besides, I don't operate that way. :wink: 

You seem as hell bent on not hearing anything anyone else says, as those you feel are doing the same. I'll just let it go. As that's what you're doing, in a way. In one ear, and out the other.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

LOL, I'll worry about my business Elk, and you worry about yours. As you see pdq, there are those questioning my right to post like everybody else.

I think I'll get a TSS, and cut the top 3 inches of the limb brace off it. Then make those 3 inches where I can quickly bolt it on and off. Walk up to somebody and say, look reflex. Then bolt the 3 inches on. Look deflex, it won't torque in your hand now. They will laugh and say, you didn't do anything. With it there or not, it moves the same in my grip. And I'm gonna say, YOU THINK????????????????


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> LOL, I'll worry about my business Elk, and you worry about yours. As you see pdq, there are those questioning my right to post like everybody else.
> 
> I think I'll get a TSS, and cut the top 3 inches of the limb brace off it. Then make those 3 inches where I can quickly bolt it on and off. Walk up to somebody and say, look reflex. Then bolt the 3 inches on. Look deflex, it won't torque in your hand now. They will laugh and say, you didn't do anything. With it there or not, it moves the same in my grip. And I'm gonna say, YOU THINK????????????????


And in doing so it will change The bows holding caracturistics


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

LOL, they will still be holding the string pulling on the cams the same as before, and the grip will still be in the same place, along with the riser and limbs. Torque exactly the same. I'll say this, if you guys really don't see that its the scariest thing I've seen this halloween.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I don't see it that way but you're entitled to your own opinion and welcome you to prove your point When you get your's I want a full scale indepth report, complete with pictures, chrono readings and group sizes at various ranges with Slicks:wink:


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## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

Wow! can't believe this thread is still going! Its just like my Ford diesel...never runs out of gas!!!


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

View attachment 189293
it keeps,,,,


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Hey, lets talk about limb tip movement,, do you suppose that the Guardian and Commander have less or even half as much limb tip movement because of the Center Pivot design? The limbs are 1/2 the length from the pivot as compared to the full length limbs on the Tribute or Allegiance. I'd like to see the ATA length measured at full draw and see how much each cam actually moves


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

pdq 5oh said:


> Hootowl, you're beginning to take this personally. Not sure what evoked this response.
> 
> "As far as me posting here, I have as much right as anybody else to post whenever and however I feel, until Terry Martin tells me otherwise. When he does I will be glad to go elsewhere."
> 
> ...


Well Peedee how does it feel to be wrong all the time. You are posting here for one reason and one reason only. ME...:wink: Yup. Your best bud the Silver one requested you be allowed out of the hoosegow to spread your gospel once more. Now aint that somethin. 
I expect at least a christmas card this year.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Silver Dingo said:


> Well Peedee how does it feel to be wrong all the time. You are posting here for one reason and one reason only. ME...:wink: Yup. Your best bud the Silver one requested you be allowed out of the hoosegow to spread your gospel once more. Now aint that somethin.
> I expect at least a christmas card this year.


Ding Dong Avon's calling
Just kiddin Dingy

I agree wwgi I would like to see that measurement also

I can't wait to hear some feedback and reviews when guys start getting there hands on some of these new bows.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

dirtydog, you flatter yourself. But if the world ever needs an enema, you'll be the first  (place) I think of. :rip:


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

walks with a gi said:


> Hey, lets talk about limb tip movement,, do you suppose that the Guardian and Commander have less or even half as much limb tip movement because of the Center Pivot design? The limbs are 1/2 the length from the pivot as compared to the full length limbs on the Tribute or Allegiance. I'd like to see the ATA length measured at full draw and see how much each cam actually moves


I think it works by moving less mass. Look at those pics of the tribute and guardian at full draw. The amount of limb moving is obvious the tribute has about 1/3rd more moving mass than the guardian. The tribute is actually storing about 5ft/# more energy but delivering slightly less.


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

pdq 5oh said:


> dirtydog, you flatter yourself. But if the world ever needs an enema, you'll be the first  (place) I think of. :rip:


Why thank you Peedee, Your gratitude is overwhelming.:wink:


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

I wonder if I'll be able to get the MZE to work on the gaurdian.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Techy said:


> I wonder if I'll be able to get the MZE to work on the gaurdian.


 Spot Hogg is making a new arrow rest called the Whammy that looks to be promising:tongue: It's operated with a cord attached to the down cable.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

I don't see why not. The MZE specific to BowTech bows should work.


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## oneshot (Nov 29, 2002)

Just Think Guys, in 2 weeks! We will be able to shoot these bows! I Can't wait! I think Bowtech is on the right track!  Keep up the good work! Bowtech!! Last year Tribute, was a big hit and rated high in polls. I think the
07 models will out do last years models!


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## sd_archer (Jan 10, 2003)

I emailed Vapor Trail and asked if they have had a chance to try the Limb Driver on the Commander or Guardian. Steve wrote back and said that he had not tried it yet, but he thinks it may work. 

Couple weeks, we'll know.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

pdq 5oh said:


> I don't see why not. The MZE specific to BowTech bows should work.


But the Gaurdian model may have even less travel than the Tribute. We'll see.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Here is a clip of an email I recieved from Bowtech


RE: REFLEX/DEFLEX
Look at it this way. If you have something attached in front of the grip, it is theoretically possible to pull it around and behind the 

grip by pulling rearward. Of course, it would have to come around and over center, which isn't going to happen, but there is torque there. 

If you have something attached behind the grip, it isn't possible to pull it around and behind the grip by pulling rearward-it's already 

there. This is said to be the benefit of deflex geometry. This can be practically demonstrated on the bow by having a shooter draw a bow 

with high reflex, apply left/right torque to the grip and watch the effect on the bow. Next have them draw a bow with deflex geometry and 

perform the same test. The bow with deflex geometry doesn't move as much. Now, whether or not this has any real affect on shooting might 

be arguable, but there is no question that by both definition and in action, the Guardian uses deflexed geometry.



Regards,



Pat Dinan

Technical Support

BowTech & Diamond Archery


This has been my findings also Just from practical experience in archery.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Great, my wiggle test. LOL 

And you guys scoffed at it.

But, as I demonstrated with the TSS with bolting the top of the limb brace on and off, it wiggles exactly the same, proving the limb brace makes absolutely no difference in making the bow a deflex bow and reducing torque.

You should tell Pat Dinan that and update him.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Let's kick this around a bit more:wink:


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

walks with a gi said:


> Let's kick this around a bit more:wink:


NO!!


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

walks with a gi said:


> Let's kick this around a bit more:wink:


Apparently we need to, because:



OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Great, my wiggle test. LOL
> 
> And you guys scoffed at it.
> 
> ...


So ... now you're back to disputing whether the center pivot bows are a deflex design? Even your cohorts coppertone and sage have conceded that it's a deflex design (by definition).


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

No no,, I really want to se a hands on digital photo of a Guardian and not one off BowTech's web site or other advertizing:wink: 











Anyone else?


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

That would be nice ... I'm a little surprised nobody has produced one yet.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

LOL, HJ, you just need to read more closely. 

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Green eggs and ham. Definitions. LOL.

Read it again. Exactly what I have said all along. And still exactly right.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

P.S. You guys messed up with Coppertone. Shouldn't have "drawn" on him. Hes armed and dangerous and going to clean your clocks.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> LOL, HJ, you just need to read more closely.
> 
> I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Green eggs and ham. Definitions.  LOL.
> 
> Read it again. Exactly what I have said all along. And still exactly right.



True, a wiggle is a wiggle:wink: If you TRY to wiggle it and it does,, it's wiggleful,, not wiggle-less


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Now you're getting it Gimp.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Got it:wink:


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

hootie, you're right, in that, any bow can be wiggled (happy?). You continue to overlook, misunderstand, deny, not realize, discount the fact that it takes more pressure, force, umph to wiggle a deflex riser than a reflex riser.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

pdq 5oh said:


> hootie, you're right, in that, any bow can be wiggled (happy?). You continue to overlook, misunderstand, deny, not realize, discount the fact that it takes more pressure, force, umph to wiggle a deflex riser than a reflex riser.


That's what I tried to tell the hoot but maybe he did the pressure needed to wiggle test at full draw test

Actually I just quit arguing too busy hunting to argue. I figure after another 5 pages or so he'll have blades and be too busy packing broadheads to argue.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Where's the pics!!!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

meanv2 said:


> That's what I tried to tell the hoot but maybe he did the pressure needed to wiggle test at full draw test
> 
> Actually I just quit arguing too busy hunting to argue. I figure after another 5 pages or so he'll have blades and be too busy packing broadheads to argue.


It's too dark to hunt right now, and I'm done, too.


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

pdq 5oh said:


> hootie, you're right, in that, any bow can be wiggled (happy?). You continue to overlook, misunderstand, deny, not realize, discount the fact that it takes more pressure, force, umph to wiggle a deflex riser than a reflex riser.


Don't you think that it would only make a difference if the bow had a wood block grip like the Mathews. I think the point is moot with the sideplate grips.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

There is somebody confused pdq, and it certainly isn't me. You guys kill me.

Tell you what pdq, I will bet anybody here I can devise a test where I prove there is no difference in the amount of pressure, force, umph with or without a limb brace.

My $1000 against yours pdq. Same with Gimp, same with meanv2, same with HJ, same with elk. I will donate my winnings to St Jude. Come on guys, have a heart, step up and put your money where your mouth is. Its worth it for the kids.


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> There is somebody confused pdq, and it certainly isn't me. You guys kill me.
> 
> Tell you what pdq, I will bet anybody here I can devise a test where I prove there is no difference in the amount of pressure, force, umph with or without a limb brace.
> 
> My $1000 against yours pdq. Same with Gimp, same with meanv2, same with HJ, same with elk. I will donate my winnings to St Jude. Come on guys, have a heart, step up and put your money where your mouth is. Its worth it for the kids.


Sadly, hoot, I don't have that kind of expendible loot available ... and I don't gamble, anyway.

Besides, until I get a Guardian in my hands, I reserve final judgement. I haven't spoken in absolutes and won't until the facts are in. Obviously I'm leaning in a particular direction on this subject, but I don't assume that my opinion or theory is "the truth". I'll leave that to you 

I look forward to your research analysis ...


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> There is somebody confused pdq, and it certainly isn't me. You guys kill me.
> 
> Tell you what pdq, I will bet anybody here I can devise a test where I prove there is no difference in the amount of pressure, force, umph with or without a limb brace.
> 
> My $1000 against yours pdq. Same with Gimp, same with meanv2, same with HJ, same with elk. I will donate my winnings to St Jude. Come on guys, have a heart, step up and put your money where your mouth is. Its worth it for the kids.



I'm on strike right now Put me to work and I'll gamble YOUR money:wink:


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Are we still discussing reflex/deflex? 

If you look at a bow from above, and you have a reflex design, the limbs come straight back over the grip and pass through the line that the deflex limb pocket would be.

Your misconcieved theory of riser design would be true about torquing a reflex riser if the cams where in front of the grip. What decides this is the leverage that is attainable by the distance from the pressure point on the grip to the cam axle centers. It doesn't matter where the limbs are attached. Distance from the grip pressure point to the axle centers at full draw would the best criteria for making the bow more "resistant" to applied torque.

Now, grips, IMO, are torque "inducing". :wink: Not to mention if the grip is on the centerline of the string travel.

I believe if the grip was moved inward toward the cable guard, you could also compensate to some extent for cable guard induced torque.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> Are we still discussing reflex/deflex?
> 
> If you look at a bow from above, and you have a reflex design, the limbs come straight back over the grip and pass through the line that the deflex limb pocket would be.
> 
> ...




BUT,, no one wants to recognize the few ounces of torque the limbs on a reflex geometry bow abrorb to keep the riser from twisting. It's this advantage that the deflex design has over the reflex geometry. Just a little better chance that shooter imput will not have a negative effect on accuracy and tune


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> Are we still discussing reflex/deflex?
> 
> If you look at a bow from above, and you have a reflex design, the limbs come straight back over the grip and pass through the line that the deflex limb pocket would be.
> 
> ...


 "Now, grips, IMO, are torque "inducing". Not to mention if the grip is on the centerline of the string travel.

I believe if the grip was moved inward toward the cable guard, you could also compensate to some extent for cable guard induced torque."

Then you'd have fletching clearance and the need to move the cable rod/guard.:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

That was SAGE advice indeed.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

The funny thing about grips is, take a 10 or 20 year old bow and throw away the grip and WOLAH, or however that french thing goes, and you have todays grips that everybody loves.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> The funny thing about grips is, take a 10 or 20 year old bow and throw away the grip and WOLAH, or however that french thing goes, and you have todays grips that everybody loves.


 Wait until you grip that new '07,, it's very nice


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I did, it is a good grip. Similar to a Stalker I have. And the Allegiance is a great looking bow. Bowtech took the other route with it to combat limb twist and cam lean due to the cables being attached to the cam. Instead of putting a limb brace on it, they set the cams as far over next to the limb as they could, so the cables are pulling as much in the center of the limb tips as possible.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

The small cable "let out" spool is also cut in a spiral to minimize cable torque. The one I drew still had a tiny bit of lean.


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> There is somebody confused pdq, and it certainly isn't me. You guys kill me.
> 
> Tell you what pdq, I will bet anybody here I can devise a test where I prove there is no difference in the amount of pressure, force, umph with or without a limb brace.
> 
> My $1000 against yours pdq. Same with Gimp, same with meanv2, same with HJ, same with elk. I will donate my winnings to St Jude. Come on guys, have a heart, step up and put your money where your mouth is. Its worth it for the kids.


Well blowies, It doesnt come any plainer than that. Ya gonna put up or shutup.:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Well, I took the time to tell the truth, and explain simply why it was the truth, and offer a way for anybody to see the truth.

I'm not going to sit back and let others ridicule the truth, and lead others to think I am not telling the truth, for whatever reasons they have.

Thats just the way the cow ate the cabbage here in Arkansaw.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, I took the time to tell the truth, and explain simply why it was the truth, and offer a way for anybody to see the truth.
> 
> I'm not going to sit back and let others ridicule the truth, and lead others to think I am not telling the truth, for whatever reasons they have.
> 
> Thats just the way the cow ate the cabbage here in Arkansaw.


 Your wiggin' truth is the truth!! 

But I'll stick to what the engineers at BowTech think.:wink:


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

walks with a gi said:


> Your wiggin' truth is the truth!!
> 
> But I'll stick to what the engineers at BowTech think.:wink:


I tried the same wiggle test with a deflex and reflex and had a different out come than hooter did AND the deflex had an inch SHORTER bh which by what he is saying should have made it easier instead of harder.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

walks with a gi said:


> Your wiggin' truth is the truth!!
> 
> But I'll stick to what the engineers at BowTech think.:wink:


Ditto for me!!


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Its obvious you guys are going to repeat advertising no matter what, like you say.

And its just as obvious to everybody that your money is still in your pockets. 

That says it all. 

I'm done playing, guys out there who want the truth have it now, and thats all that matters to me.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

O Mr. Truthful one. I am saving my money for a Guardian and more Tricks!

If we ever get any blades

Maybe you should design a bow! Just don't have the risers cut in Solingen

Not trying to dispute what you have said Gary, but it's obvious your tests are not very scientific. More opinion than facts or figures that I have seen. I trust Bowtech engineers from their past record and like I said earlier I will hold judgement until I shoot the bow.

If it is quieter than my Allegiance.
If it has less shock than my Allegiance.
and still within 5 to 8 fps of my Allegiance at my Draw length, then I'll be more than satisfied.
I really don't give a rat's arse about this whole reflex, deflex argument. 
If the Guardian is any more accurate or forgiving than my Allegiance then I'll have to see it to believe it.

It is a tack driver

Did you see the 50 yard shot I put on that Mule Deer
It did the Trick No Pun intended


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

Ya gotta love a guy that labels his opinion, "The Truth".


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

HJMinard said:


> Ya gotta love a guy that labels his opinion, "The Truth".


Gary is a good guy

I guess most of the time his opinion is the truth


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

$1000 says my truth is the truth.

If you don't think I can demonstrate a scientific test Meanv2, and you trust Bowtech more than me, then put your money where your mouth is. You too HJ, and the rest. Do it and I will be at the ATA with the test for everybody to witness, and I will let YOU demonstrate the test which will prove without a doubt to everybody there you can't tell any difference in the torque of a bow with a limb brace or not, call it deflex if you like.

Come on boys, talk is cheap, and everybody sees your cheap talk. Don't be weenies, step up and donate some money to St. Jude.

Or you can just bs some more, for all to see.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> $1000 says my truth is the truth.
> 
> If you don't think I can demonstrate a scientific test Meanv2, and you trust Bowtech more than me, then put your money where your mouth is. You too HJ, and the rest. Do it and I will be at the ATA with the test for everybody to witness, and I will let YOU demonstrate the test which will prove without a doubt to everybody there you can't tell any difference in the torque of a bow with a limb brace or not, call it deflex if you like.
> 
> ...


Is this like a male ego thing? 

I'll shoot the bows and make my mind up, I always do

How many pages ago did you quit arguing the truth

Curious Hoot? What does your scientific truthful wiggle test prove about Brace Heights?


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I never quit telling the truth.

Obviously you never quit arguing advertising.

As to brace heights, I will let you explain to everybody how a 5 1/2" brace height bow torques less than an 8" brace height bow.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I never quit telling the truth.
> 
> Obviously you never quit arguing advertising.
> 
> As to brace heights, I will let you explain to everybody how a 5 1/2" brace height bow torques less than an 8" brace height bow.


Only according to your wiggle test Right?


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Wrong again.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

This thread "Use to be" good to get the scoop on the new Bowtechs:tongue: 
Now days it needs to be renamed "OLDHOOTOWL's philosophy".......


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

mdewitt71 said:


> This thread "Use to be" good to get the scoop on the new Bowtechs:tongue:
> Now days it needs to be renamed "OLDHOOTOWL's philosophy".......


Ain't it the Truth!!

We should rename the thread: Hoot's Truth Philosophy 101


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

My mistake md. I will let you guys talk advertising and nonsense from now on.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> My mistake md. I will let you guys talk advertising and nonsense from now on.



:thumbs_up


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I never quit telling the truth.
> 
> Obviously you never quit arguing advertising.
> 
> As to brace heights, I will let you explain to everybody how a 5 1/2" brace height bow torques less than an 8" brace height bow.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

*Little extra edge?*



OLDHOOTOWL said:


> My mistake md. I will let you guys talk advertising and nonsense from now on.



Just a little more,,,, 

Fat carbon arrows for line cuter points.
Slick Trick heads for a little better flight
Cracker's strings for a little more speed
CX Maximas for a little extra accuracy
Scent Blocker suits for a little extra security that you'll not get winded
Danner boots for better comfort that lasts longer
Simm's products for a quieter bow
Swarovski binoculars for better vision to see where that 12 ring is
Whisker Biscuit rest for total arrow control while hunting..


Maybe this BowTech Guardian/Commander is the next thing that will give you just a little more,, it's what we've asked for:wink:


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## DirtNapTV (Aug 7, 2005)

Hoot, if you will take note the limbs on the Bowtech are machined less on one side than the other, in turn the limb is thicker on the cable side than the string side, also the commander and guardain are not torque free unless a hooter shooter is firing the arrow and no bow is torque free with the human factor.
But the new Bowtech design does help in hand torque and if you do not believe that just wait until you shoot these two bows.


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

:thumbs_up :thumbs_up


3DMountaineer said:


> Hoot, if you will take note the limbs on the Bowtech are machined less on one side than the other, in turn the limb is thicker on the cable side than the string side, also the commander and guardain are not torque free unless a hooter shooter is firing the arrow and no bow is torque free with the human factor.
> But the new Bowtech design does help in hand torque and if you do not believe that just wait until you shoot these two bows.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Still not finished with the "Who has the biggest brain" competition?:wink: 
I am just waiting for you guys to put it to the test, so I can know if it is a shooter or not. If the bow is that and more forgiving, I don`t care if it is because it is deflex or not.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I never quit telling the truth.
> 
> Obviously you never quit arguing advertising.
> 
> As to brace heights, I will let you explain to everybody how a 5 1/2" brace height bow torques less than an 8" brace height bow.


It won't. It's most likely a reflex riser. :wink:


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Silver Dingo said:


> Ya gonna put up or shutup.:wink:


Doggiebag,
Been waitin' quite some time for you to take your own advice. Useless, or not.  ....................advice just ain't what it used to be. :tongue:


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Torques?*



OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I never quit telling the truth.
> 
> Obviously you never quit arguing advertising.
> 
> As to brace heights, I will let you explain to everybody how a 5 1/2" brace height bow torques less than an 8" brace height bow.



Don't know about you. If I shot a bow with 5 1/2 bh I'd take off half my forearm? Draw 30" (long monkey arms)! Torque or not, think that would lite me UP! that's why I like the 7+ BH! Oh and Meanv2 CSS!:wink:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I didn't say a 5 1/2" brace height bow torqued less than an 8" brace height bow.

I was referring to an earlier post in the thread where meanv2 said he owned a 5 1/2" brace height bow that torqued less than an 8" brace height bow he owned.

Ask meanv2 to explain that to you, he said it.

3D, thanks, I appreciate somebody actually providing some decent info instead of just being silly. I thought they would do that with the limbs to combat limb twist and cam lean but hadn't seen it mentioned. Just quickly looked at an Allegiance and noticed the cam position.

Of course I am sure if you go back and look at past threads you will see where the guys on here who make silly comments about deflex but won't put their money where their mouths are, also are the same ones who were saying there was no cam lean on the binary bows. If there wasn't then why did Bowtech move the cam over, make the limb thicker on the cam side on the old bows and now come out with the limb brace? Those guys wouldn't tell it straight then, and they aren't now.

And in case you missed it, I have a bunch of Bowtech bows, more than any other brand, so I am a fan of Bowtech. Just not blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to design. And I have never said the new bows wouldn't shoot great, just the opposite, said I expected they will.

What I did say was if you had 2 bows exactly alike, one with a limb brace, and one without, there would be absolutely no difference in hand torque. And I gave a simple explanation with the TSS so guys who weren't rocket scientists could easily see that.

But for the rocket scientists out there, Coppertone will prove that for you in scientific terms also.

What I did learn in this thread though, is that a public forum is a poor place to seriously discuss design. Guys just want to push brands and advertising instead of getting into whats really happening. Don't have that kind of time to waste on guys who don't deserve good info.


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

pdq 5oh said:


> Doggiebag,
> Been waitin' quite some time for you to take your own advice. Useless, or not.  ....................advice just ain't what it used to be. :tongue:


Put up or shutup peedee, and we dont no forged notes either.:wink:


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> What I did learn in this thread though, is that a public forum is a poor place to seriously discuss design. Guys just want to push brands and advertising instead of getting into whats really happening. Don't have that kind of time to waste on guys who don't deserve good info.


Good grief, hoot, you are a curmudgeon, aren't you? Once again you assume your OPINIONS are correct, and adopt a condescending attitude toward anyone who disagrees. Just because you've developed some "wiggle test" in your head doesn't make your theory a fact. Have you, in fact, done any scientific testing?

I, for one, don't own a Bowtech. I've never owned a Bowtech. And I'm certainly not "pushing" a brand or advertising. I've never made any claims whatsoever about cam lean.

And your repeated statements about "not having time to waste" are sounding a little hollow since you've been repeating them for about 5 pages of this thread (at least). Stop wasting your time, then ... and find some other "truth" and wisdom to share with the forum.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Lol.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> I didn't say a 5 1/2" brace height bow torqued less than an 8" brace height bow.
> 
> I was referring to an earlier post in the thread where meanv2 said he owned a 5 1/2" brace height bow that torqued less than an 8" brace height bow he owned.
> 
> ...


 Here's some info from BowTech's web site,,

"November 1, 2006
NEW BOWTECH® GUARDIAN PROVIDES THE ULTIMATE BOWHUNTING EXPERIENCE: THE LATEST TECHNOLOGY, SUPERIOR COMFORT AND UNMATCHED PERFORMANCE

Powerful and Fast Performance With Absolute Sub-Zero Hand Shock Makes the New-For-2007 BowTech Guardian Bow the Ultimate Power Tool for Bowhunters

When it comes to giving bowhunters the power, stealth, speed and smooth performance to bring down the most challenging game, industry leader BowTech® has never been afraid to bend the rules. Take, for example, the companys new BowTech Guardian  an advanced bow that uses an exclusive center pivot limb design to provide more energy with less input. 

With BowTechs new center pivot design and split limbs, full draw brings the limbs way beyond parallel than any other bow. This efficient design and greater transfer of stored energy upon release gives bowhunters unequalled speed and power while requiring less input. BowTech specifically developed it to deliver sub-zero hand shock and eliminate excessive noise, for the accuracy, stealth and lethal power to make the most challenging shots and bring down the toughest big game. 

Other features of the BowTech Guardian include a new center tracking cam design that eliminates limb torque and cam lean. The BowTech Guardian is built with a new 1-1/2 deflexed forged aluminum riser that is straighter and stronger for greater accuracy and reduced torque. This new bows 33 axle-to-axle length provides the speed, power and accuracy required for the most demanding hunting situations while still allowing for easy movement through the brush. With a lightning-fast IBO speed rating of 320-328 fps and less input required from the shooter, the new BowTech Guardian can make every bowhunter more effective. 

The BowTech Guardian also features a new modular grip system with two-piece super-thin side plates for greater comfort and control. A new shelf trough with a thumb groove below it closes the distance between the shooters hand and the arrow rest holes. Placing the shooters hand closer to the arrow creates reduces vertical torque, for even greater stability and accuracy on tough shots. An optional one-piece contoured grip is also available. 

For full concealment, the BowTech Guardian is available in Mossy Oak Obsession (standard), or optional Mossy Oak® Brush TM, Realtree Hardwoods Green® HD TM, Realtree Hardwoods® HD TM. BowTech also offers the BowTech Guardian in Chrome, Smoke Chrome and Black Marble finishes all with attractive smoked flame limbs. 

To learn more about BowTechs advanced line of bows featuring the Binary Cam System, as well as the complete line of BowTech products for bowhunting and competitive target archery, contact BowTech at 90553 Highway 99 North, Eugene, OR 97402  Telephone: (541) 284-4711  Or visit www.bowtecharchery.com.

back to PR>>"

"Other features of the BowTech Guardian include a new center tracking cam design that eliminates limb torque and cam lean."

I'd say that they knew about some issue with "cam lean" or "limb torque" and they are addressing it. Personally, on mine and my wife's we have very little cam lean but I've seen others that had a bit more. Our bows shoot great and have had no issues with accuracy or wear or any other problems.

I've seen more cam lean on various other single and hybrid cam bows of different makes than on my personal Binary cammed bows.

There's lots of features on the new Guardian and Commander bows to make them operate and shoot differently and some are there to improve on some customer conserns from the past like centershot, grip and cam lean/limb torque.

Looks like BowTech has stepped up to the plate and looking at Hoyt's new offerings, they have also.

It's what we wanted:wink:


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

If someone has the ability to post a picture of the Guardian on here and then post another with the limb brace photoshopped off it would be nice for everyone to see. The limb brace is a seperate piece from the one piece machined riser. When you look at the photo with the limb brace removed it looks just like any other bow with the exception of the curvature of the limbs. I see what Hoot is saying and am inclined to agree with him, but I would like to see an actual test to prove one way or the other. There is no way I would just believe what Bowtech says with out testing it independantly. I have never seen anyone else just believe another bow company because they say so without testing themselves. I mean come on, how could a couple floating brass pieces work to make a bow quieter and low vibration. After the very successful MQ1 why didn't people believe Mathews without trying them first. Why just believe Bowtechs marketing without testing them first. I have had fun reading all you guys argue for days about this though.

I am still waitng for the mathmatician that posting earlier to give us the answer that he said he has.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

hootie:
"What I did say was if you had 2 bows exactly alike, one with a limb brace, and one without, there would be absolutely no difference in hand torque. And I gave a simple explanation with the TSS so guys who weren't rocket scientists could easily see that."

Since we're not all rocket scientists, please excuse us for not swallowing your take on this.  

"What I did learn in this thread though, is that a public forum is a poor place to seriously discuss design. Guys just want to push brands and advertising instead of getting into whats really happening. Don't have that kind of time to waste on guys who don't deserve good info."

What you did learn is this. Just because YOU say it's so, doesn't mean everyone else thinks it is, or it even IS for that matter. Expecting people to bend over and accept your way of thinking is foolish. You could always start a private forum, and discuss things with yourself. You'd be pretty well assured of always being right. At least within your own world. Whether you feel anyone not of your thinking is worthy, or not, is immaterial. People's opinions are not necessarily pushing brands and advertising, again, just because you think it is. I appreciate your not wanting to waste any more time on those not deserving of your "good info". It is too bad you feel none other than yourself have any to offer.


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## DirtNapTV (Aug 7, 2005)

Guys,
In case you did not know the whole cam lean thing does not I rewrite does not effect the way the bow performs.
Just ask any of the archery talk people that have hooter shooters and have a bow with cam lean so bad the lazer from top to bottom cam is 4 inchs or more out.
Those bows still shoot great, Randy Walk of Hoyt told me years ago when he was an engineer at Hoyt that my hoyts that had cam lean would not effect my bow shooting, it did however get into my mind.
Bowtech has listened to the bow buyers and fixed all the little things and added two of the greatest bows ever made according to everyone I have talked with that has shot these bows. Hope to tell you in about two weeks,the other 07 bowtech we have received are better than the 06 in my opinion.
That is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth! LOL


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Sure is nice to hear the truth


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## niteshade (Feb 7, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> $1000 says my truth is the truth.
> 
> If you don't think I can demonstrate a scientific test Meanv2, and you trust Bowtech more than me, then put your money where your mouth is. You too HJ, and the rest. Do it and I will be at the ATA with the test for everybody to witness, and I will let YOU demonstrate the test which will prove without a doubt to everybody there you can't tell any difference in the torque of a bow with a limb brace or not, call it deflex if you like.
> 
> ...


isn't $1000.00 a little steap....


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

niteshade said:


> isn't $1000.00 a little steap....


 I agree. I don't think I've ever seen anyone willing to spend money to degrade another manufacture's product, especially at the ATA show.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I don't think TSS will mind that I prove that their limb brace has no effect on making it a deflex bow which torques less.

And I don't know that you guys own more Bowtechs than I do.

Like I said, this is a poor place to have a serious discussion of bow design. Proven by these attacks.

Obviously you guys are just sore because your claims were shown to be hollow.

Old Indian saying, "White man who won't put money where mouth is has mouth full of b.s."


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## niteshade (Feb 7, 2004)

*Old Indian saying, "White man who won't put money where mouth is has mouth full of b.*

with todays economy and christmas coming up.....i don't know very many folks who can put up $1000.00 for this worthless argument


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Well, I don't have any more money than anybody else.

But with todays economy and Christmas coming up it was a chance for these guys to have $1000 to spend on Christmas.

IF they were as sincere with their beliefs as they would have us believe. They weren't. They knew they were bs ing and they wisely opted out.

And for the record, if you noticed, I would not have made a penny, all of the the winnings would have gone to St. Jude.

I knew what I was saying was true, and I could prove it, so I didn't mind betting.

If you don't sincerely believe what you post, you should think about not posting stuff that would mislead others.

If that makes guys sore, its their problem.


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## hunteraj (Dec 13, 2005)

*07 bowtechs*

i like the idea of the new binary cams to reduce cam lean. are they going to fit on my 06? can they be recrackerized on my 06 allegiance?


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, I don't have any more money than anybody else.
> 
> But with todays economy and Christmas coming up it was a chance for these guys to have $1000 to spend on Christmas.
> 
> ...



Using your logic, I could make a similar analogy:wink: A 4 blade cut in a deer from any 4 blade broadhead is the same, 4 blades = 4 cuts= dead deer. If the 4 blade head stays together and is not damaged, it's just as good as any other 4 blade head. If this 4 blade head shoots to the same point of impact as any other 4 blade head,, there's no difference in any 4 blade heads because they do the same thing. I sincerely believe what I post and intend to not mislead others


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## toyo1 (Jan 17, 2004)

*Broadhead packager or Engineer?????*

OLDHOOTOWL..................Broadhead packer-upper or Engineer????? Or mabey he just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. your call AT'ers.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Keep trying Gimp, you can say that if you like, LOL. But if you say some 4 blade head torques less for a bogus reason you will still be wrong.

And toyo, I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Woohoohoohoo.


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

*Man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

we are still talking about this???? 

Lets see some more pictures........ this is after all called "07 Model Bowtech" :wink:


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

How do y'all like the deflex risers on the new Bowtechs? hehehe


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## niteshade (Feb 7, 2004)

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, I don't have any more money than anybody else.
> 
> But with todays economy and Christmas coming up it was a chance for these guys to have $1000 to spend on Christmas.
> 
> ...


owlhoot.....you are a buisnessman...you have the best heads on the market today......your continual ramblings on this thread is indeed making you look bad and i would think that wouldn't be good for your buisness........:wink:


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

niteshade said:


> owlhoot.....you are a buisnessman...you have the best heads on the market today......your continual ramblings on this thread is indeed making you look bad and i would think that wouldn't be good for your buisness........:wink:


That's only IF he is wrong. If he is right than that makes him brilliant and it is good for business. What he says makes a lot of sense. Awhile ago I asked someone to post a picture of the Guardian and to brush out the limb brace to see what it looks like. It looks like an ordinary bow, but no one seemed interested in doing so.


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## niteshade (Feb 7, 2004)

matforme said:


> That's only IF he is wrong. If he is right than that makes him brilliant and it is good for business. What he says makes a lot of sense. Awhile ago I asked someone to post a picture of the Guardian and to brush out the limb brace to see what it looks like. It looks like an ordinary bow, but no one seemed interested in doing so.


just shoot the bow......and then tell us what you think,honestly.....and as far as i know owlhoot isn't a bow maker or designer...:wink:


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## HJMinard (Oct 18, 2006)

matforme said:


> That's only IF he is wrong. If he is right than that makes him brilliant and it is good for business. What he says makes a lot of sense. Awhile ago I asked someone to post a picture of the Guardian and to brush out the limb brace to see what it looks like. It looks like an ordinary bow, but no one seemed interested in doing so.


But that's just silly because (if you "brush out" the brace) the limb is not mounted on the remaining riser in a conventional manner at all. There is no limb pocket - it appears to be just an axle. Therefore, the "brace" is an essential component in the assembly, not just an extraneous marketing gimmick that can be erased.

I seriously doubt that Bowtech's engineers designed these bows with marketing in mind. Whether they actually perform as Bowtech's sales and marketing folks claim remains to be seen, of course, but the engineers must have had something in mind.


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

Niteshade, I wouldn't say I am much of a businessman. Actually sure I am not. Just put up with it as part of inventing something and getting it to guys so they enjoy it. And I explained earlier in the thread if anybody wanted to get mad because I told the truth about bow design and wanted to stick me they were welcome to do that. Money isn't going to push me around or silence me from telling it like it is.

And as far as I know, you don't actually know much at all about me- do you?

I just thought somebody out there would be interested to learn something about reflex-deflex. Actually didn't get into the meat of it after the surface of it got so much defensive flak from guys. But others hinted at more for guys that read closely and really are interested in learning about the subject. 

And if anybody would care to go back and look at all the posts, I surmised in my opinion the new bows would probably shoot great. Never criticized them at all, just pointed out an advertising goof.

But md is right, this has gotten old, and a bit silly with guys attacking me, the other guys can have the last word if they want it, and if anybody does want to continue on to something else they are welcome to it. Over and out.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I just know that I ordered a Commander 32" DL 70 lbs yesterday.
Just took the chance that it will be a shooter. It would be very difficult to testshoot a 32" new model here in norway. They preorder them with 27-30" DL.
I am really looking forward to get the bow in my hands. I am afraid it will take a long time 
But I should be all set for some hunting with it next autumn


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## oneshot (Nov 29, 2002)

*Wait intil you shoot it!*

Guys,

I shot a demo Commander back in Sept. ,when I was hunting in Oregon,
It shot faster,smoother,more forgiven, plus less noise of any bows that I have shot in a long time! An including my own Tribute!, which I loveto Shoot!
This Bow Design has alot of benefits! Wait intil you shoot one, before you form a opinion! I've shot bows over 30 years, Hats off for the R.D. at Bowtech! You guys got a winner!  



Oneshot


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

oneshot said:


> Guys,
> 
> I shot a demo Commander back in Sept. ,when I was hunting in Oregon,
> It shot faster,smoother,more forgiven, plus less noise of any bows that I have shot in a long time! An including my own Tribute!, which I loveto Shoot!
> ...


Can't wait to hear more reviews from those getting their hands on Commanders and Guardians, but I would rather my Guardian arrive

I know!! It will be a while


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## latch109 (Oct 18, 2006)

How long before they show up??


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

See, I was right, it shoots great.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

latch109 said:


> How long before they show up??


I was told there are several shipping out this week to dealers. So keep your fingers crossed.

I am and an ear open


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## TexasAggie (Aug 5, 2006)

I don't really have anything to add. Just wanted to be a part of the nonsense...

:darkbeer:


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## OLDHOOTOWL (Feb 9, 2003)

I like your style Tex.


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

walks with a gi said:


> Here's a TSS Quadraflex:wink:
> 
> I wanted one of these when they first came out but were pricey
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/TSS-QUADRAFLEX-...ryZ20838QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


 One of the bext bows I ever owned. Man, that brings back some old memories. That was also the first $300+ retail compound bow. Man, that was a lot of money for a bow nack then.

Okay, back to the soap opera.

Dan


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