# Help Choosing Arrows for Intermediate Archer!



## JMartin589 (Jul 17, 2014)

Hey everyone,

Just a quick question regarding arrow selection.

I have been shooting for about six months, on a Cartel Fantom with 30lb medium limbs. Recently I've noticed that the increases in my groupings and scores (I shoot about an average of 240/300 indoors) are beginning to even out and it is getting harder to see improvement. As such, I'm feeling as if I'm outgrowing my equipment. I've upgraded my sight (Avalon Tec One) and saw some improvement which has encouraged me to do more.

Now, the arrows I'm currently shooting at Easton Genesis arrows. I believe they are 1820 aluminum. 
I've been told by friends that these are ill suited and that I would improve my groupings by getting new arrows.

At this time I'm considering three options (open to other suggestions):
Easton Apollo, Easton Carbon One, and the Victory VAP V6. 

I'm unsure as what the difference between these is and whether the more expensive Carbon Ones are worth it over the other two options. Can someone help me with some comparison between them? Will all of these be a noticeable improvement? 

Thoughts? 

Thanks everyone. I appreciate any help you can give me.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

The Carbon One would be my recommendation out of those options. However, if you upgrade the VAP's to the V3 or even V1, then I would say those beat the group hands down.

With any one of those you could see an improvement over the Genesis aluminums, though. Are you planning to shoot them outdoor too, or just indoor. Only asking because the Carbon One and VAP both do very well as outdoor arrows.


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

Another one you can consider are Carbon Express Medallion XR. I think they're a little lighter than even Carbon Ones and a little less expensive. The Apollo's are the heaviest of the whole group by several grains at least for each comparable spine. Also Carbon Impact Ultra Fasts.


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## JMartin589 (Jul 17, 2014)

Thanks for the replies!

I'm planning on shooting these primarily indoor until next summer, when I will hopefully start shooting outdoor as well. 

Would the Apollos still work as a outdoor arrow? Or would their weight make them impractical?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

To really get a good accurate recommendation, you need to supply more information.

DL (AMO) DW OTF would help.

What Class are you shooting in for those 240/300 scores? depending on the program that can be on a 40cm or 60cm. in some programs they shoot 80cm targets indoors.

Knowing the rest of your setup and configuration would also help guide people.

See my sticky thread for more guidance.


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## JMartin589 (Jul 17, 2014)

Alright.

Averaging 240/300 at 18m on a 40cm target face. 
RH, Cartel 25". 30lb medium limbs. Single long rod stab. Shibuya plunger. Avalon Tec One sight. 
DL of about 28-29" (I have never had this properly measured). 
DW OTF of 34lb.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

That's a good start.

Still don't know the arrow length. 

I should have been more clear about the scores. Is that NFAA targets, blue white, with 5 score rings or FITA multi color 10 ring targets. 

Something else doesn't add quite add up. How did you measure the DW. or was it calculated by someone for you. At 28" AMO DL, your DW for your limbs should be at 30lbs or real close. add 1" of DL and you should have 32lbs, not 34lbs unless you changed something else as well (like cranking down the limb bolts). The type of limbs might also help determine some of these questions. These things are items that would help. Are you shooting with a clicker? What arrow rest.

Have you ever done a bare shaft test? have you ever done clearance tests? How is the setup/center shot configured?
How did you measure your DL to determine the 28-29" range.


But all these things aside, The reason you are probably finding that the equipment is holding you back probably has a lot more to do with the fact that those arrows are WAY overspined for that rig.

30lb limbs 28" arrows your spine should be in the 800-900 range with normal weight (100 ish grain points) Genesis arrows have a static spine of .595 and only come with 50 gn points. Add into that, if you are still shooting the stock vanes, they are very heavy and the nock system is also very heavy. All these factors put you in an arrow that is probably 4 spine groups too stiff for your rig. I would be very surprised if you were not having a major clearance problem like vanes hitting the riser HARD, if not the back end of the shaft and this would make shooting them very unforgiving. The fact that you are shooting 240/300 with such a poor match of arrows to bow are proof YOU are doing something right and the same every time. While it's possible to shoot even higher scores with that poor of a match, you will find a closer match will be much more forgiving.

That being said, what's your budget like. Even a carbon Impact Ultrafast, in a much closer spine would be a big help towards a more forgiving rig.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

j -

You are shooting indoors.
Stay with properly matched aluminum arrows. 
Given your specs, that should mean a full length 1716, 1814 or 1816. All will be tune-able or close. (The 1820s are spined a bit over 50#.)
Those arrows will out shoot you, regardless of how good you get - ever. 

When you start shooting outdoors at longer ranges, then thing change.
The next step, would be Carbon Ones, and as you improve, ACEs. 

Viper1 out.


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## JMartin589 (Jul 17, 2014)

On Multi-Color 10 ring targets. 

My current arrows are stock length for Genesis, which I think is 29.5". I can tell they are about an inch too long for me by where the point is on my riser at draw. Other than that...I dunno. 
As for how I measured DL, I took my wingspan and divided by 2.5 to get a ballpark figure. 
Its also possible that I overdrew when I was putting my bow on the scale. I'm kind of doing all of this without any instruction or assistance for the most part. 

My limbs are Hoyt Excel 30lb Mediums, I think I mentioned this earlier, but not in the last summary. No idea what makes a difference here. 

I am shooting without a clicker, and I have an SF Elite magnetic arrow rest. 

No I've never done a bare shaft test or clearance test. 
My center shot was set by myself by adjusting how far the plunger goes into the riser and looking to match the edge of a nocked arrow with the string. 

Well, that's good to hear. I was uncertain how big a difference it made.
I had my suspicions about the fletching weight - as there is often residue and markings on the shelf/riser from where they are rubbing or striking it. 

I would like to be able to get a full dozen for under $150.00 CDN with all the fixings. My shop told me that a full dozen C1s, all made up, would cost me just over $210 CDN ish. 

As for the post by Viper, I appreciate what you're saying - but I was hoping to get these arrows for both indoor and outdoor to avoid purchasing another set in the summer. My understanding is that small diameter carbon arrows will be fine for both settings...although I might be wrong in this regard.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Since you plan to also shoot the new arrows outdoors, as you stated in Post #4, you are correct that it makes the most sense to just get carbon arrows now. It makes sense financially; carbon arrows are great for indoor so there's no need to buy an aluminum set and a carbon set. It also makes sense that you won't need to spend additional time retuning while transitioning from aluminum to carbon. As it appears you've already figured out, buying another set of aluminum arrows now would be a waste of your time and money. Clearly you understand that so I just wanted to reinforce it for you to eliminate any chance you get misled and take some bad advice to buy another set of aluminum arrows.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

JMartin589 said:


> On Multi-Color 10 ring targets. Thank you for the clarification
> 
> My current arrows are stock length for Genesis, which I think is 29.5". I can tell they are about an inch too long for me by where the point is on my riser at draw. Other than that...I dunno.
> As for how I measured DL, I took my wingspan and divided by 2.5 to get a ballpark figure. As many of us will tell you this is the worst method to measure your AMO DL
> ...


At your current level of shooting either Aluminum or Carbon's would probably be fine for a first set.. You probably won't be shooting real long distances right away if you are smart with your shooting. A good set of alloy Platinum Plus' 1716's or 1814's set up properly will probably get you out to 50M pretty easily. at 32lbs even to 60M. Moving the sight in, you might even make 70M. Tributes xx78's here in the US complete from Addicted to archery, will be less than 80.00 USD if you skip the wraps and go with vanes instead of feathers (which you should probably do if you want to take it out doors)

There should be plenty of choices in carbons that will tune fine for you.


If price is really a problem, again


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## JMartin589 (Jul 17, 2014)

Thank you for your help dchan. I appreciate the attention to detail.

I have decided to buy a set of Easton Apollos, as they are cheaper and I expect to move up next year. I'm working out the details of spine and length with my local pro shop. 
Looking forward to seeing how they improve my performance, especially after I do some more tuning and testing of my setup.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

With your current setup as far as we can tell, you should be somewhere close to the 800-900 spine range. If your pro shop tries to sell you a 500-650 spine arrow, don't pull the trigger or you may be in the same position that your in now.

DC


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## JMartin589 (Jul 17, 2014)

800-900?

From the Easton chart I was thinking it would be closer to the 670 or 740 Apollos. Are the charts skewed stiff? 
What is the equation for determining spine?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

JMartin589 said:


> 800-900?
> 
> From the Easton chart I was thinking it would be closer to the 670 or 740 Apollos. Are the charts skewed stiff?
> What is the equation for determining spine?


Experience.

Your current genesis arrows are 595 (almost 600) and spine so stiff your vanes are SLAMMING into the riser (based on your accounts)

Experience tells us that the charts do run stiff. There have been several modified charts that seem to be more accurate. Viper's website has an alloy arrow list. My sticky thread has a PDF of limbwalker's carbon shaft chart that he built based on actual configurations that his Athletes were actually shooting.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

JMartin589 said:


> 800-900?
> 
> From the Easton chart I was thinking it would be closer to the 670 or 740 Apollos. Are the charts skewed stiff?
> What is the equation for determining spine?


Yes, the Easton charts are skewed laughably stiff. For draw weights above 40 lbs the Easton charts are almost useful, a slightly stiff starting point that you learn to deal with after gaining real world experience. Below 40 lb draw weight the Easton chart is so shamefully bad there should be a class action lawsuit about all the money archers have wasted buying way too stiff arrows. The lower the draw weight the more ridiculous the recommended spine. Has anyone ever sent Easton a letter or email asking them why their charts are so bad?


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## wags2 (Jan 26, 2009)

I was shooting basically the same setup as you are. Cartel canton, axiom limbs 33# off fingers at 28" draw and was shooting 1716's with 90 grain tip with aae vanes. Was able to hit 60 meters with no problem and would have been close at 70 without moving sight in. I switched to 800 spine Cx medallions with 110 grain tips and spin wings and get very good flight these are cut to 28 1/2". I have shot these up to 38# on a different set of limbs and they flew great. If I remember right the 1716 should be around a 880 spine at this length. I tried 700 spine Cx medallions and they would not tune at all.


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## noobcaheo (Jun 15, 2011)

I would suggest you start out with Carbon Impact Super Club arrows. Back then when I first start with Archery, I shot with Carbon Impact Super Club because it is cheap (70$, come with nock, vanes, and points). I got 265/300 with those. And after that I jumped right into ACE, which gives me additional 20 points. Don't waste your money into other mid range arrows.


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

I'll tell you what. I got a deal on about 12 dz new old stock shafts. If you can use 1814 X7's cut to 28" I'll send you a dz free. All you have to buy is some NIBB points and nocks and vanes. Just make sure that a 28" arrow will work and you can finish them or have someone else that can. Arrowchucker


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

Oh yea the 1814's spine at .799. Send me a PM and we can talk. I'm old school and I remember when there wasn't carbons and X7 was the best in the world. I shot 1814's at 90 meters with 1970 vintage bows and dacron strings. Like Viper said they will shoot better than you ever will(or at least for a VERY long time)


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

dchan said:


> E... Viper's website has an alloy arrow list. My sticky thread has a PDF of limbwalker's carbon shaft chart that he built based on actual configurations that his Athletes were actually shooting...


Why can't I find this alloy arrow list and PDF  Let me look a little closer.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2037374&page=2&p=1069184201#post1069184201

And 

http://www.shootingthestickbow.com/ArrowGuide.html


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks a lot dchan.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

TER said:


> Since you plan to also shoot the new arrows outdoors, as you stated in Post #4, you are correct that it makes the most sense to just get carbon arrows now. It makes sense financially; carbon arrows are great for indoor so there's no need to buy an aluminum set and a carbon set. It also makes sense that you won't need to spend additional time retuning while transitioning from aluminum to carbon. As it appears you've already figured out, buying another set of aluminum arrows now would be a waste of your time and money. Clearly you understand that so I just wanted to reinforce it for you to eliminate any chance you get misled and take some bad advice to buy another set of aluminum arrows.


When I first started outside, and was not at a range with the nice FITA platters, I lost a few arrows to metal and wood supports (and that's leaving aside the odd miss that buries itself and can't be found). Those arrows were my indoor arrows. I started to burn through my supply. I bought separate Carbon Impact SCs, I occasionally lose one of them outside, but my aluminum indoors are now safe from that risk. The aluminums handle any indoor shanks generally well, and I basically have to re-fletch or change a nock. If I have a goofy day outside I am not burning through a common supply I also need for indoor.

If I bought ACEs the minute I went outside I'd have burned through a few hundred dollars' worth gaining form and accuracy. I don't think you need that to get started. I bought inexpensive carbons and could still do 50+ rounds at 40 in a 900 within a few months. You won't win the Olympics with them at 70, but when I first went outside hitting 70 was a gift and not an expectation, and the arrows should be picked accordingly. Consider the fact that when you just start outside whatever you spring for may be lost in the weeds or slammed into a metal support, and that this could happen as often as every other visit perhaps at first.

However, since I tested various combos I can say that when I have considered bringing inexpensive carbons inside they were less accurate than a decent set of Easton aluminums. So each arrow set now has its own task.

I'd also throw out there that I was in a similar range as you in my NFAA 300 league, felt like I'd plateaued, and sought out a new coach who is on here. I've gained 10 league points since then in maybe a month. It does not necessarily require an equipment solution. It turned out there was plenty that could be improved or fixed.


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