# World Cup - Antalya Turkey



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

John, coaching the ladies is a difficult task for any coach... But the real question from outside should be what happened to Kathuna and Jenny...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Vittorio, they're old.  ha, ha.

We cannot continue to depend on Khatuna and Jenny year after year. We shouldn't be so dependent on them. A nation like ours should have a half-dozen or more world-class female recurve archers at any given time. Our national training program was upended and retooled 7 YEARS ago for pete's sake, and neither Khatuna or Jenny are a product of it.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

And, Khatuna is still recovering from an arm/shoulder injury of some sort. She still isn't 100 percent.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Looks like Jenny and Jake fought well in the mixed team event, taking 2nd ranked China to a shoot-off. China shot a pair of 10's to Jenny and Jake's 10/9. That's great shooting. 

Nice to see my old competitor Furukawa shooting well on that field. My match against him in 2004 was my first international match, and we tied after 18 arrows at 160, then tied again with a pair of 10's in the shoot-off. He eventually won in the second shoot-off, and later gave me a Japanese archery pin that I still cherish to this day. He was a 20 year old kid then, and asked me at the time "how old ARE you?" ha, ha. I enjoy following him and seeing all the success he's had since then.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John, coaching the ladies is a difficult task for any coach...


So true. But some of us enjoy the challenge.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

John, Italy in women is still 99% "Valeeva" dependent. With Natalia we are 13th in Antalya, without her we were going to be out ... May be not a case she was in the same team with Kathuna in 1992 .. 
Women are mistery, as all men know, and archers women are even more complicated, if possible. I have coached several ladies of different nationalities , up to >1300 level, and none of them were equal. For sure, anyhow, mental discipline and total obedience more than trust to the coach are a must. This is the reason why things can work for their coaches easily in Asian countries, in former Estern block coutries and in a certain extent in Germany, but surely not in Italy, in France or of course in USA ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Women are mistery, as all men know, and archers women are even more complicated, if possible.


 Glad YOU said it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sorry for the broken link.

Antalya results link is on the right side of the home page.

http://www.worldarchery.org/


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Our national training program was upended and retooled 7 YEARS ago for pete's sake, and neither Khatuna or Jenny are a product of it.


doesnt seem to be working...


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wowzers. Columbia and Belgium in the compound mixed team finals, and India beats Korea in the recurve semi's. Who would have guessed?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Wowzers. Columbia and Belgium in the compound mixed team finals, and India beats Korea in the recurve semi's. Who would have guessed?


This is India's well needed boost, especially after their bugaboo involving their NGB (Archery Association of India) and it's country's equivalent of the USOC. I am surprised to not see Deepika Kumari in recent events, however.


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## dmassphoto (Feb 8, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> This is India's well needed boost, especially after their bugaboo involving their NGB (Archery Association of India) and it's country's equivalent of the USOC. I am surprised to not see Deepika Kumari in recent events, however.


Wow, I think that's the first time I've seen on here someone refer to a world archer with both names.  I'm still a little new to watching these WA matches, so it's nice to know who you guys are talking about without having to research first names, haha.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dmass, sorry if I'm doing that 'inside baseball' thing.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

dmassphoto said:


> Wow, I think that's the first time I've seen on here someone refer to a world archer with both names.  I'm still a little new to watching these WA matches, so it's nice to know who you guys are talking about without having to research first names, haha.


For me, I have a habit of naming US based archers by their first names. For non-US archers, I will try to use their full name.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Beastmaster said:


> This is India's well needed boost, especially after their bugaboo involving their NGB (Archery Association of India) and it's country's equivalent of the USOC. I am surprised to not see Deepika Kumari in recent events, however.


She didnt make the top 4 for the first world cup in Shanghai. They sent her to Medellin and she didnt shoot well, and did not make any points. So they left her out for Antalya. 

Chris


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## dmassphoto (Feb 8, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Dmass, sorry if I'm doing that 'inside baseball' thing.


Haha no problem. I'm sure you know a lot of these folks personally. 

I've been trying to stay away from the live results (impossible) because I like to wait and watch the matches on WA tv. I'm hoping to see Elena Richter do well again this week, as well as the US and UK mixed team.


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## Apollon (Dec 9, 2013)

Beastmaster said:


> For me, I have a habit of naming US based archers by their first names. For non-US archers, I will try to use their full name.


And for me, I have a habit of naming Germany based archers by their first names. For non-Germany archers, I will try to use their full name. - SCNR
Something to say? - Yes! After eliminating Brady ELLISON (sorry), LEE Seungyun, Carlo (unfortunately) and CHEN Hsin-Fu, now Florian will fight for Gold, against KU Bonchan.
There seems to be a good year for the German archers. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1DwgbXzrg


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Wow. Out of the individual and mixed team eliminations, the US isn't in the running for a single medal. :mg:


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

HyeJin Chang in the Gold medal match... Joo HyunJung in the bronze...


All 4 Korean ladies in the final 8. Hyejin Chang had to take out 2 of her team mates to get to the Gold medal final. 


Chris


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

Hoping Gold for HyeJin, that's all I want to see this Antalya.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Looking at the matchplay in compound today, the wind must have really got up for such low scoring.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

http://www.worldarchery.org/NEWS/Ne...lympic-revenge-on-OH-in-Antalya-quarterfinals

Furukawa is as gracious as ever, in victory and defeat. Proud to have played a small part in this young man's archery career.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

They didn't stand a chance ;-)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Suggesting the US men's compound team "didn't stand a chance" is about the most ridiculous thing I've seen here in quite a while. That's equivalent to saying the Koreans "don't stand a chance" in a team match. Simply not true. Every archer and every team has their off day. The opponent who beats them on that day should feel fortunate.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

John, World championships in Belek last year have teached a lot about how to shoot in the wind with compound. Simply, you can't use a back tension release there. If you do so, you loose. Cristine Berger (Women World champion last year) asked how she was able to win, simply answered "Because I'm a puncher.." . Not a case that all top shooters (not US only) in Antalya well known to use the back tension release are out from the finals...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Vittorio, you may very well be correct, however in terms of experience in winning outdoor compound events, my money will still ride on the U.S. team members. We have a group that practically invented the sport at this level, and I'm sure they have a game plan. They don't like to lose.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

John,

But Julle posted results from men recurve 1/8 match......not compound


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> John, World championships in Belek last year have teached a lot about how to shoot in the wind with compound. Simply, you can't use a back tension release there. If you do so, you loose. Cristine Berger (Women World champion last year) asked how she was able to win, simply answered "Because I'm a puncher.." . Not a case that all top shooters (not US only) in Antalya well known to use the back tension release are out from the finals...


Spot on. After my post about the wind last night, I went to Youtube and checked out all the World Cup gold metal matches for compound in the mens' division since 2012 and when the wind gets up, the back tensioners go down.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> John,
> 
> But Julle posted results from men recurve 1/8 match......not compound


My mistake. Sorry.

And in that case he would be correct.  Pretty tough to beat a 59 point end to win a set.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ccwilder3 said:


> Spot on. After my post about the wind last night, I went to Youtube and checked out all the World Cup gold metal matches for compound in the mens' division since 2012 and when the wind gets up, the back tensioners go down.


I know at least two of the U.S. Men, in Antalya in 2007, explained to me their strategy for dealing with the wind, and which style of release they choose for which conditions. I specifically asked them about that when I had the chance. It is not a new idea to switch from a BT release to a trigger release (in their case, thumb trigger) when the wind gets up. I've passed that advice along to my own students on more than one occasion. One of those archers was there again at this event, in fact. So the knowledge is there, whether or not they chose to take their own advice.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

John, you might know the answer to this one. Is a compound archer allowed to switch releases between arrows in international competition?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I can find no rule against that.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

I would say as long as both releases has been inspected there should be no problem....


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

julle said:


> View attachment 1971967
> 
> They didn't stand a chance ;-)


John, these are recurve scores. But still i wouldnt say they didnt stand a chance.

I believe Brady Ellison was once ranked #1 in the world. Something none of the team Netherlands has done. Also two of the USA team has won an Olympic medal. Also something the Netherlands has yet to do. The only way either of them ( USA or Netherlands) wouldnt stand a chance is if they had to shoot against the Korean womens team. 


USA compound men shot against Norway, India and Korea. They will shoot against Netherlands in the Gold medal final.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm only suggesting that it's all but impossible to beat a 59 point end to win a set. Don't read too much into it. 

Under the set system, everyone has a chance. I think Antalya just proved that.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mulcade said:


> John, you might know the answer to this one. Is a compound archer allowed to switch releases between arrows in international competition?


From a judges standpoint, if both releases are inspected, you are fine. 

It is up to the archers to choose releases that have the same point of impact between hinge and trigger.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Thanks, beastmaster. I didn't know if releases were handled the same way otheer equipment is. For instance, I doubt you could start shooting different arrows in the middle of a match unless you have some sort of equipment failure.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mulcade said:


> Thanks, beastmaster. I didn't know if releases were handled the same way otheer equipment is. For instance, I doubt you could start shooting different arrows in the middle of a match unless you have some sort of equipment failure.


I have to think about that one. 

You can switch releases. You can switch tabs. All while in the middle of a match. If your bow fails and you have your spare in reach, you can switch bows.

I can't imagine an archer mixing between fat and skinny arrows as the wind demands wane and fall. Most archers I know tune their spare bows to they same arrow setup.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

You can switch arrows during a match, but not during an end. Everything else, you can switch at any time.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Yeah, arrows were probably not the best example. :grin:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> You can switch arrows during a match, but not during an end. Everything else, you can switch at any time.


Yup, that's pretty clear in the rules. Same arrows in an end. Same length, fletch, cresting, etc.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> John, these are recurve scores. But still i wouldnt say they didnt stand a chance.
> 
> I believe Brady Ellison was once ranked #1 in the world. Something none of the team Netherlands has done. Also two of the USA team has won an Olympic medal. Also something the Netherlands has yet to do. The only way either of them ( USA or Netherlands) wouldnt stand a chance is if they had to shoot against the Korean womens team.
> 
> ...


Chris, situation is not so strange if you analize it from the point of view of the location and the jet lag involved. Pls also refer to my analisys of Medellin situation as an example. 
In Antalya, Europeans have the advantage of 0 + 2 hours time zones only, the Asians are coming from East, so they suffer just 1/2 of same situation going to West, while Americans have from -9 to -12 time zones to face. Worst situation in all world cups. USA, Colombia and Mexico teams wanting to perform at top had to get to Antalya 10 days in advance at least, as Korea did in Medellin.
Again, not all teams are in the same conditions, as none of those coming from more than +2 and -2 time zones did the proper acclimatation. Even Koreans are not at the level they should be, because of this. 
In addition to this, Asians are at top as in full training for the Asian games, Europeans are still experimenting new teams in preparation to European championships (and experiments wil go on next week in Bulgaria with the European Grand Prix).
And now, we will also have the alternate shooting on the sea shore ... that can surely be replaced by a coin toss, as far as technical result is concerned... 
Antalya results should not be taken too seriously ... (but they had to be last year in Belek)


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## All Torque (May 10, 2014)

Vittorio said,

"And now, we will also have the alternate shooting on the sea shore ... that can surely be replaced by a coin toss, as far as technical result is concerned... "


I'm going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons here and draw an analogy between archery and formula 1 racing... on a wet track in adverse conditions all bets are off... kinda like archery on a windy day, to a certain extent you're taking the machine out of the process and relying on pure human intuition and skill. You can tune your car/bow to perfection... but when Mother Nature is involved those refinements to an extent aren't significant and the athlete with the best gut instinct will succeed. I'm not denigrating people who have triumphed in the past however I don't discount the efforts of those who prevail under adverse circumstances.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Great finals live on You Tube on my 55" screen, aircon on and my sofa... 

Not so much wind today, quite constant, NE 2 to 4.2 m/sec only , so results are more or less reflecting archer's real form. 

First time Gold for one compound Korean man.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Congratulations to both US compound teams for brining home the silver!


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> My mistake. Sorry.
> 
> And in that case he would be correct.  Pretty tough to beat a 59 point end to win a set.


No problem John,

Though I have to mention that the dutch also beat the US men in the compound gold final ;-)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

They are certainly on a roll right now. Proves you don't need a country of 300 million to produce championship archery teams.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

...the US has ceased to be dominant in recurve archery for some time now starting right after the 1996 olympics in my opinion...

...and the rest of the world has been catching up on their heretofore dominant role in compound archery as well lately...

but it's not the case of the US archers deteriorating------the others are just getting better...and better.

the "how" is another story altogether..


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## Apollon (Dec 9, 2013)

Florian did it - he's got gold!


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## Apollon (Dec 9, 2013)

He is cool - and he had some luck:

When the young German’s arrow rest broke on the last end of matchplay, KAHLLUND turned to his second for a shoot-off to decide Antalya gold.


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## Mad Wally (Apr 26, 2013)

jmvargas said:


> the "how" is another story altogether..


???


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> ...the US has ceased to be dominant in recurve archery for some time now starting right after the 1996 olympics in my opinion...
> 
> ...and the rest of the world has been catching up on their heretofore dominant role in compound archery as well lately...
> 
> ...


I think the "how" is simply a matter of finding enough archers willing to do certain things, to produce the team of individuals that can be competitive on a world stage. Aside from that, a country is lucky to have one or two exceptional individuals who carry the water (i.e. Valeeva, Roman, Ellison, etc.)


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ------ a country is lucky to have one or two exceptional individuals who carry the water (i.e. Valeeva, Roman, Ellison, etc.)


Yes John, simple truth . People don't understand that the difference in organization and system is so huge from Korea to the rest of the world that can't be filled by any country alone. 
In a similar discussion on FB, I was mentioning few days ago that if Italy has now 2 male archers capable of shooting 1350 (sometime) over around 400 archers shooting FITA rounds in our country, while Korea have around 30 to 50 men and >100 women at that level over 1500 professional shooting several FITA rounds per day, we are f---ed, no matter what we do. If we add up all those exceptional individuals that "carry the water!" from all countries in the world, we can't simply reach the number of Koreans at that same level. The only handicap Koreans have is that only 4 per gender are allowed in the world cups, only 2 in their finals, and only 3 at World champs and Olympic games. 
Let's make an example, and suppose that next year Korean Business Teams decide that Nimes and Las Vegas are nice plices to try during the winter, and you will have 20 men and 20 women (this year women have ben already 5) competing in the indoor World cup... Result wil be no more Vegas e no more Nimes the year after... simply. This is the only reason they don't do it, as Korea has also an archery induistry to protect, and customers are mainly outside Korea.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Let's make an example, and suppose that next year Korean Business Teams decide that Nimes and Las Vegas are nice plices to try during the winter, and you will have 20 men and 20 women (this year women have ben already 5) competing in the indoor World cup... Result wil be no more Vegas e no more Nimes the year after... simply. This is the only reason they don't do it, as Korea has also an archery induistry to protect, and customers are mainly outside Korea.


An excellent observation on the state of the sport.

I would be in nobody's interest for archery to go the way of Women's softball, removed from the games after utter domination by one country.


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## Mad Wally (Apr 26, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> An excellent observation on the state of the sport.
> 
> I would be in nobody's interest for archery to go the way of Women's softball, removed from the games after utter domination by one country.


Kind of like the Dutch in speed skating.


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## Infinite Curve (Jan 7, 2013)

Hello - I'm a little late to this thread, but I think I have something to add. (Have been in touch with chrstphr already)

I went to Antalya this year to work for World Archery's communications team; basically, I helped write all the articles you see on the front page of worldarchery.org during the tournament. I got to interview a pretty staggering array of archers, almost all of which had English as a second language or not at all, which got challenging in places. 

In terms of compound releases, Choi Yong Hee (who won gold, you will remember) used a trigger release for the finals, which weren't particularly breezy. He said he normally used a back tension release, but "wasn't afraid to switch, it just depends on the situation" if I remember rightly. (fact: the Koreans use the English words 'back tension', too) 

During the (much windier) individual eliminations, a very well known European compounder said "I stuck to the back tension. I have the trigger right here in my pocket, but it's a last resort." 

Anyway, I can't spill all the beans, for obvious reasons, but I wrote up my experiences here:

http://theinfinitecurve.com/2014/06/20/a-storm-from-the-east-antalya-world-cup-2014/

Was particularly great to meet Fatimah Almashhadani. You see ****ty role models for teenagers right around the world and then you meet someone like her. She got a silver medal at the Europeans a week later, too - it wasn't a fluke. Back her for the Asian Games. 

I also went to Istanbul first and saw golden bows and the extraordinary, gleaming, and completely empty 'archery lodge', then went hunting for target stones. You can read about that here:

http://theinfinitecurve.com/2014/06/05/the-sport-of-kings-archery-in-istanbul/

OK, cheers.


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## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

Great articles. I really enjoyed reading them!


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## Infinite Curve (Jan 7, 2013)

Sosius said:


> Great articles. I really enjoyed reading them!


Thank you very much!


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