# 650 challenge



## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Has anyone tried the 650 challenge on www.alaskabowgunting.com ? Accord to Dr.Ed Ashby a 650 gr arrow with 19% FOC is about where you should be to see a very noticeable change in penetration. I decided to try it out and see if I like it . Also wondering if anyone else has tried it or have built their own arrows to those specs and what theirthoughts are about it.


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## JGBowhunter (May 5, 2014)

Set up a dozen Grizzly Stiks with 200gr tips about a month ago. I love them. It requires a bit of tuning depending on how many grains you jump but the momentum the arrow has hitting the target is really good. I wouldn't be afraid of taking any shot with these arrows bone in the way or not.


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## Rasstus (May 13, 2005)

Keep this on top I am interestes in this. Anyone else?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

I've been considering this as well... I'm interested in the results. I have been thinking about trying to build an arrow to this spec, but haven't found the right combination


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Yesterday i was at the bow shop and with what they had in stock i built a 300 Axis at 530 grains. 145gr fp with 75gr brass insert up front. It is i think 18.9976% FOC. I shot it a lil bit yesterday and at thirty yds with my bow being sighted in with a 388gr injexion the Axis was about a 5 yard difference and at forty seemed to be towards about 8yds. I'm gonna turn my bow up to 70 lbs to try and keep my speed up with the 650gr grizz sticks coming in the mail. Hopefully they will be here by Saturday and i will def keep you guys posted with my results.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

19%???I'm struggling to get 10%. Lol


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

marked the biggest question I have is how are those guys getting that huge foc. I am shooting 581 grains currently with 10 percent foc I don't have any wraps and only 3 vanes I would need a 200 grain head????


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## newmexarcher (Dec 4, 2007)

Or a 100 gr insert behind a 100 or 125gr head. Personally, I'm using a GT 7595, 29.5", with a 100gr brass insert behind a 125 gr head with quick fletch quick spin vanes, total arrow weight comes in at about 530 grains total and about 17.5% FOC.


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## Nock On 4 Life (Jun 17, 2013)

the heavier the arrow itself, the more weight you need up front to adjust the FOC. so if your arrow is 300 grains (y gpi x z inches), then you throw in a 75gr brass insert and a 150gr head you should be okay


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

I am working on a new arrow. Won't be as heavy but will have some FOC.
X impact 300
85 grain outsert
125 grain head
Small wrap
3 x Vanetec swift 1.88"
Nocturnal.

Total weight - approx 480 grains
FOC - 19.22%
Approx 290 fps 

Should be a killer set up until I hear more about this 650 challenge


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Also, lighted nocks make it much harder to achieve high FOC


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

can I get heavy brass inserts for 2219s. (those are aluminum arrows for the guys under 30):wink:


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## whack&stack (Oct 15, 2007)

constitution said:


> can I get heavy brass inserts for 2219s. (those are aluminum arrows for the guys under 30):wink:


Lol I have no idea but I did actually laugh out loud when I read your post


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I am at 615 gr and 13% FOC at the moment.
If I increase the weight up front with about 100 grain, I will be at 715 gr and a tad over 19% FOC.
I am at 260 fps with the 615 gr arrow and most likely I will be at around 240 fps with a 715 gr arrow.


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## Nickum1982 (Aug 7, 2012)

constitution said:


> can I get heavy brass inserts for 2219s. (those are aluminum arrows for the guys under 30):wink:


I spit up my drink when I read this you just made my day.


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I love heavier arrows, but to me spine is the hardest aspect to get right. It takes an extremely stiff spine to handle that much weight up front. Besides Grizzly sticks and maybe FMJ dangerous game how are you guys getting that stiff a spine? Now granted as you go that heavy in weight and speed is quite a bit less so spine becomes a bit less critical but still it is hard for me to even get in the ballpark spine/weight wise.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

4IDARCHER said:


> I love heavier arrows, but to me spine is the hardest aspect to get right. It takes an extremely stiff spine to handle that much weight up front. Besides Grizzly sticks and maybe FMJ dangerous game how are you guys getting that stiff a spine? Now granted as you go that heavy in weight and speed is quite a bit less so spine becomes a bit less critical but still it is hard for me to even get in the ballpark spine/weight wise.


Slower speed does not mean spine is less critical. Spine MUST be correct no matter what. To achieve high foc and total weight in one combo it helps big time to start with a light gpi shaft. The whole idea is to move all the weight as close to the front as possible while still keeping the correct overall dynamic spine needed for your particular setup. The lighter the gpi the shaft, the greater effect adding weight to the front will have on foc. Victory VAP's come in .250 spine at 9.7gpi. Arrow Dynamics also makes the Nitro Stinger in .200 spine @ 10gpi, .225 spine @ 8.75 or 8.4gpi and .250 spine in 8.0gpi.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I use the Kinetic Big Game XT 200 arrows.
If I didn't use them at full length, it would need less weight up front to get good FOC.
With a 27" arrow, I would get 18.93% FOC with 650 gr total arrow weight.
That is with 4" vanes.
If I use smaller and lighter vanes and a lighter nock, I would easily get 20% FOC with a 650 gr 27" arrow.

When I am going to build a heavier and high FOC arrow for Water buffs, I will also add a footing to strengthen the front part of the arrow.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

4IDARCHER said:


> I love heavier arrows, but to me spine is the hardest aspect to get right. It takes an extremely stiff spine to handle that much weight up front. Besides Grizzly sticks and maybe FMJ dangerous game how are you guys getting that stiff a spine? Now granted as you go that heavy in weight and speed is quite a bit less so spine becomes a bit less critical but still it is hard for me to even get in the ballpark spine/weight wise.


I did a lot of different combinations on OT2 to get the spine and FOC where I wanted it. It is still a work in progress, but the set up I posted is good per OT2. Like Henro stated the key is to find a light gpi shaft like VAPs or X Impacts.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I did a lot of different combinations on OT2 to get the spine and FOC where I wanted it. It is still a work in progress, but the set up I posted is good per OT2. Like Henro stated the key is to find a light gpi shaft like VAPs or X Impacts.


OT2 is a HUGE help in playing with different builds and saves a ton of money to get you close. Everyone must remember though you still have to get out and actually test bare shafts and group fixed heads with field points to determine proper spine.


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I agree that starting light is important, but then you have to look at the overall goal. If you are striving to get penetration on game then then strength of the shaft and it's track record has to be considered. Otherwise you are building on a weak foundation. I haven't found many proven hunting shafts that are light enough to start with. Also I do disagree with the spine MUST be correct. I have seen a lot of trad shooters (me being one for a bit) that are clueless to their spine and shoot very well. The same goes for lower weight draws and lower speeds. Yes in theory spine must always be right, but I have found a lot more forgiveness (spine wise) when you are dealing with lower draws and less speed. I do think that the 650/19% goal is do-able just tough to get to but would be awesome for hunting.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

Is there a way to add inserts on arrows that already have an standard insert glued in?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

4IDARCHER said:


> I agree that starting light is important, but then you have to look at the overall goal. If you are striving to get penetration on game then then strength of the shaft and it's track record has to be considered. Otherwise you are building on a weak foundation. I haven't found many proven hunting shafts that are light enough to start with. Also I do disagree with the spine MUST be correct. I have seen a lot of trad shooters (me being one for a bit) that are clueless to their spine and shoot very well. The same goes for lower weight draws and lower speeds. Yes in theory spine must always be right, but I have found a lot more forgiveness (spine wise) when you are dealing with lower draws and less speed. I do think that the 650/19% goal is do-able just tough to get to but would be awesome for hunting.


Spine is important regardless. Test for yourself and you'll see.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

DaneHunter said:


> Is there a way to add inserts on arrows that already have an standard insert glued in?


Gold tip fact weight system and the long wrench.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

DaneHunter said:


> Is there a way to add inserts on arrows that already have an standard insert glued in?


If the brand of arrow you're shooting doesn't have a way to add weight to the insert you can internally foot the shafts as well.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

Doofy_13 said:


> Gold tip fact weight system and the long wrench.





henro said:


> If the brand of arrow you're shooting doesn't have a way to add weight to the insert you can internally foot the shafts as well.


So you guys are saying they screw into the insert from the back side? So I need like a 30 inch Allen wrench?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

DaneHunter said:


> So you guys are saying they screw into the insert from the back side? So I need like a 30 inch Allen wrench?


Gold tip sells the long allen wrench for their weight system. It only works with their inserts though as they have threads on the back of the inserts. PDP also has an insert weight system for their inserts: http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdp+insert+weight+system_iSPW05_baseitem.html. I was referring to weight tubes: http://www.3riversarchery.com/3Rivers+Arrow+Weight+Tubes_i6731X_baseitem.html.


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## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

Black Eagle makes three arrows that are .250 spined that are lighter GPI where weight can be added up front by the heap. The X-impacts, rampages, and carnivores can all be had in the .250 spine. They are proven hunting arrows so starting with these one could get a pretty good build for the 650 test.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

henro said:


> Gold tip sells the long allen wrench for their weight system. It only works with their inserts though as they have threads on the back of the inserts. PDP also has an insert weight system for their inserts: http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdp+insert+weight+system_iSPW05_baseitem.html. I was referring to weight tubes: http://www.3riversarchery.com/3Rivers+Arrow+Weight+Tubes_i6731X_baseitem.html.


I'll look into these. Thanks. I use GT arrows, so the fast system should work.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I know when i tried to build one of these arrows myself at my local shop the problem was they didn't have the components i needed to get up that high on weight or FOC. I have also noticed that taking weight off the back end of your arrow can drastically change your FOC compared to bulking the head. When i ordered the challenge they said they were sending me two shafts one a 330 and the other a 250 to figure out which one i liked better. They said if you couldn't really tell a diff in flight to go witht the heavier one. They also would be running a 200 gr field point and i'm sure some weighted inserts and possibly a weight behind the insert. I have also seen guys play with 100gr and 125 gr field points thinking that is gonna dramatically increase their FOC. You have to add hundreds of grains up front to move your FOC drastically and even more if you run big vanes,wraps and especially lighted nocks. A slight change in the back end will increase or decrease your FOC more than what people realize. Dr.Ed Ashby demonstrated this in a video on youtube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a51cK62k9jY
That video might give you a good idea of how important it is to do everything possible to lighten up the back end of your arrow.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

snoman4 said:


> Black Eagle makes three arrows that are .250 spined that are lighter GPI where weight can be added up front by the heap. The X-impacts, rampages, and carnivores can all be had in the .250 spine. They are proven hunting arrows so starting with these one could get a pretty good build for the 650 test.


This is the route I went. I will know soon if it going to pay off.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> If the brand of arrow you're shooting doesn't have a way to add weight to the insert you can internally foot the shafts as well.


I've been trying to figure out how to do this the right way. I read that if it isn't done right it can actually hinder the penetration of your arrow and create a weak spot.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That is not the video i meant to post but still has good points in it. The one i was looking for was where he added seven paper clips to the front of an arrow and it didn't change the balance point at all. Then he went back and added one paper clip at the 28" mark on the back end and it made the arrow fall off the balance point completely. If i find it i will post it still looking


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> That is not the video i meant to post but still has good points in it. The one i was looking for was where he added seven paper clips to the front of an arrow and it didn't change the balance point at all. Then he went back and added one paper clip at the 28" mark on the back end and it made the arrow fall off the balance point completely. If i find it i will post it still looking


You posted the right vid. The paper clip thing is at the very end.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Cool thanks doofy! For some reason i was thinking i watched a shorter version where he just showed the paper clip demonstration.


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## dblungem (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks again, be.85 for forwarding me the link in the thread where I had a question about my set-up. Learned some new things there. 

Just a general thought - Isnt there a happy medium between weight, penetration and speed? I'm all for a heavy arrow (rather than a light one at least), but what's really the trade off here? I would consider a 650 grain arrow to be very heavy for the general whitetail hunter. There is also a sacrifice to be made going that heavy as well - larger pin gaps, mainly. Judging distance becomes even more critical. Then again, when bone is involved, heavy is good. 

So where is the happy medium? I'm not convinced that 650 is it for me at least. Its sort of a rhetorical question, but I've been struggling with the thought for a long time. I know we dont need to be shooting 300fps to kill deer, but we have to admit that some speed is good. Thoughts?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

dblungem said:


> Thanks again, be.85 for forwarding me the link in the thread where I had a question about my set-up. Learned some new things there.
> 
> Just a general thought - Isnt there a happy medium between weight, penetration and speed? I'm all for a heavy arrow (rather than a light one at least), but what's really the trade off here? I would consider a 650 grain arrow to be very heavy for the general whitetail hunter. There is also a sacrifice to be made going that heavy as well - larger pin gaps, mainly. Judging distance becomes even more critical. Then again, when bone is involved, heavy is good.
> 
> So where is the happy medium? I'm not convinced that 650 is it for me at least. Its sort of a rhetorical question, but I've been struggling with the thought for a long time. I know we dont need to be shooting 300fps to kill deer, but we have to admit that some speed is good. Thoughts?


The 650 gr mark is the heavy bone threshold mark. If you are only going for whitetail i would imagine that you could get by with less weight but at the same time trying to maintain a 19%FOC or better. With that being said, on that same link i sent you on your thread they recommend that if 650 is too heavy for you, then the heaviest weight with the amount of trajectory that you can live with. The reason i am so interested in a heavy arrow is i have made a bad shot before with a very light set up that i had made pass throughs with also. On the bad shot the bh barely buried to the insert. I am basically building an arrow for the worst case scenario possible because things don't always go as planned. From what i have heard at that weight(650) the small twigs and the perfect angle aren't such a concern as with a light fast setup.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

dblungem said:


> Thanks again, be.85 for forwarding me the link in the thread where I had a question about my set-up. Learned some new things there.
> 
> Just a general thought - Isnt there a happy medium between weight, penetration and speed? I'm all for a heavy arrow (rather than a light one at least), but what's really the trade off here? I would consider a 650 grain arrow to be very heavy for the general whitetail hunter. There is also a sacrifice to be made going that heavy as well - larger pin gaps, mainly. Judging distance becomes even more critical. Then again, when bone is involved, heavy is good.
> 
> So where is the happy medium? I'm not convinced that 650 is it for me at least. Its sort of a rhetorical question, but I've been struggling with the thought for a long time. I know we dont need to be shooting 300fps to kill deer, but we have to admit that some speed is good. Thoughts?


Some people will say this is a myth, and realistically it is. The more your weight goes up (up to over 1500 grains for sure) your momentum and KE will increase. However, we each have personal preferences about how fast we want to shoot...for reasons that you listed. I think it comes down to personal preference there. You have to find what YOU want out of your setup. However, Dr. Ashby has performed many tests that prove at least 650 grains with at least 20% FOC will give you maximum penetration even when heavy bone is encountered. 
At the end of the day, you have to have confidence in your setup...in all aspects of your setup. If you feel 650 grains is more weight than you want to shoot, then find a weight you are comfortable with. If you look at his list below, you will see that FOC ranks above Mass weight. Mass weight only moves to the #3 slot if you are hunting HEAVY boned animals.... Which I assume to be African game type animals. This is the reason I look for at least 18% FOC, good mass (over 450 grains), and still keep decent speed. 
Hope this helps..


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I also failed to mention that according to that website you can hunt and kill anything in North america without changing arrows at 650gr. Just a thought


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Absolutely correct Ryjax good point made there!


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## Grizzlemethis (May 10, 2014)

What kind of speed are you guys getting that are over 550 gr? I dont care as much about speed and I dont shoot an insanely fast bow but am curious.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

The heaviest arrow that i have built so far is 530 gr with 145gr fp and 75 gr brass insert. 70 pound 27" hoyt carbon spyder moving it 247' per sec.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hopefully i will have my arrows that i ordered by Saturday 650-660 gr and i will post some speeds and results then for sure.


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## carcus (Dec 10, 2005)

I've had great penatration on elk and moose when bone was hit with just straight up fmj's 340's, I think they weigh around 450-465gr, I will stick to this weight.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

May i ask you what type of broadhead you are shooting?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

carcus said:


> I've had great penatration on elk and moose when bone was hit with just straight up fmj's 340's, I think they weigh around 450-465gr, I will stick to this weight.


It's tough to beat the penetration of FMJs! The FMJ injexions penetrate even more. I absolutely love them. I am shooting those out of my other bow to test if my high FOC X Impacts will out penetrate them.


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## carcus (Dec 10, 2005)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> May i ask you what type of broadhead you are shooting?


QAD exodus, Darton ds3800 62lbs 28" draw, this is the front leg bone on my moose from last year, broadhead smashed the bone into shards penatrating 24 inches into the chest, broadhead was undamaged! Was a frontal shot 12 yards, I did hit a few inches left of where aimed


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

I have just spent the last 2 hours watching and reading dr ashby and I must say im very intrigued. the things he presents and the manner presented all make sense. I went to aluminum arrows this season to get a heavy arrow and didn't really pay attention to foc now im rethinking my decision.


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

I use 32 1/2 inch 2317s aluminum's out of my one setup, 13.3 Gr. Per Inch, 125 gr. BH...600 gr. total arrow weight, 64 lbs. oneida...


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Grizzlemethis said:


> What kind of speed are you guys getting that are over 550 gr? I dont care as much about speed and I dont shoot an insanely fast bow but am curious.


I get 260 fps chronoed with my 615 gr arrows.
I shoot a Bowtech Destroyer 340 at 31" and 70 lbs.
I think 260 fps is fast enough and I think the pin gaps is about right for me.

With a 615 gr arrow at 260 fps, I don't need to do any changes to my setup, no matter what I hunt, but buffs.

I am going to up my weight to 700+ gr and about 240 fps and see how that will be.
Not that I need that weight for most hunting, but since I plan to hunt Water buffs in near future.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I get 260 fps chronoed with my 615 gr arrows.
> I shoot a Bowtech Destroyer 340 at 31" and 70 lbs.
> I think 260 fps is fast enough and I think the pin gaps is about right for me.
> 
> ...


Have you checked into what your FOC is? just curious?


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm not hitting 650 or even close to it, but DCA 300 spine 28" tip of nock to tip of point is pushing 485 grains with 19% FOC (100gr GT FACT weight, 100gr broadhead). No clue on the speed but I bet it will be a really good setup for whitetail this year. Shooting muzzy 3 blade original, 3 blade meat seeker, CX Torrid SS, and who knows what else by the time season rolls around.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Sounds good Doofy! If you look at the list of 12 factors of penetration the arrow FOC is above Arrow mass and Arrow mass above the heavy bone threshold. So it tend to leads me to believe that people should be more concerned about hitting the 19% FOC mark rather than hitting the 650 gr mark.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

I have to shoot my bow at 60 lbs and I have a short 26.5 inch draw. If I went to a 650 grain arrow I'm guessing I wouldn't break 200 fps. So I will settle for a 465 grain gold tip velocity with a 22.2% foc! It's going about 250 fps.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Bowtechforlife said:


> I have to shoot my bow at 60 lbs and I have a short 26.5 inch draw. If I went to a 650 grain arrow I'm guessing I wouldn't break 200 fps. So I will settle for a 465 grain gold tip velocity with a 22.2% foc! It's going about 250 fps.


That will hit like a truck! What components did you use to get the FOC over 20%?


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

I'm playing with these theories this year as well. Im not close to the 650 grain arrow, but will be shooting a 460 grain arrow that has a 160 grain Grizzly 2 blade broadhead on the front of it. It should be traveling around 260 fps.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qa4ZdIZsJk check this out! Ladies only shooting 166fps with a 680gr arrow.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Sounds good Doofy! If you look at the list of 12 factors of penetration the arrow FOC is above Arrow mass and Arrow mass above the heavy bone threshold. So it tend to leads me to believe that people should be more concerned about hitting the 19% FOC mark rather than hitting the 650 gr mark.


Thanks! If I like the results from a heavier arrow from what I normally shoot (380ish grains), next year I might bump up the over all weight to around 600 grains. I think 485 should be plenty for what I'm hunting (whitetail) but overkill is awesome.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qa4ZdIZsJk check this out! Ladies only shooting 166fps with a 680gr arrow.


Wow! Makes me think about ordering some better broadheads.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I am shooting the Strickland helix single bevel on a 400 spine injexion for this hunting season because i have my bow dialed in with that weight and broadhead. But next year i think i'm gonna try to run the Grizz Stix with a 200 grain single bevel Samurai with a total weight of 650-660gr. The current setup is only 388gr


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

I kind of think a three blade muzzy would hold up to the shoulder of a whitetail (485gr 19%FOC). What do you think?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

For guys interested I've already documented a 650+ build with high FOC and single bevel bh using Victory VAP's here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Doofy_13 said:


> I kind of think a three blade muzzy would hold up to the shoulder of a whitetail (485gr 19%FOC). What do you think?


I think you should be good lol or at least I hope you are because that is very similar to my setup.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> For guys interested I've already documented a 650+ build with high FOC and single bevel bh using Victory VAP's here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182.


Thanks Henro! I was trying to find that recently.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Doofy i think you would be fine. The reason i went with a single bevel two blade is because it is supposed to split the bone and pass through it easier than crushing it to pieces and push its way through like a three blade.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I think you should be good lol or at least I hope you are because that is very similar to my setup.


They're a lot tougher than people assume: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1859108


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

Last year I was shooting a 380 grain arrow, low foc, and a 2" swhacker on the front. Shot the deer quartering away and the broadhead chopped the humerus right in half (I think it was the humerus). If a light arrow cand do this with that broadhead, I think anything 450+ with significant FOC and a fixed head will take care of whitetails.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ya that is my goal too is to build an arrow that can and will cause the most damage possible and put down the game as fast as possible.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Have you checked into what your FOC is? just curious?


The FOC with my 615 gr arrow now is 13%.
I will get around 19% FOC with a 700+ gr arrow without changing anything else than the front weight.

I have been considering to go lighter at the back end to get more FOC, because at the moment I use wraps, 4" vanes and a rather heavy nock.
By reducing the weight at the back and increasing it a bit at the front, I should easily get 16% FOC with a 615 gr arrow.
Only way to get the FOC higher then, is to increase the forward weight even more.
I guess I will be at 19% FOC with a total arrow weight of around 680-685 gr.

According to Ashby will you need less steering surface at the back to stabilize a high FOC arrow, so reducing the vane size, might not matter at all. even with rather large cutting fixed broadheads.
Most likely will I build a 700 gr arrow with a FOC close to 20% going at about 244 fps and test how it does.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I'm a big proponent for heavy arrows....but not that heavy. My 500gr arrow will do just about anything that 650 will do


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Norwegian Woods said:


> The FOC with my 615 gr arrow now is 13%.
> I will get around 19% FOC with a 700+ gr arrow without changing anything else than the front weight.
> 
> I have been considering to go lighter at the back end to get more FOC, because at the moment I use wraps, 4" vanes and a rather heavy nock.
> ...


I woudl try to drop down in your vanes size,take the wrap off and try a lighter knock on one arrow. You would be really suprised how much 20-26 grains on the back of an arrow affects the FOC.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Ryjax said:


> That will hit like a truck! What components did you use to get the FOC over 20%?


I used a velocity 300 cut to 24.5 inches with a 100 grain brass insert and a 125 grain point. On the back I have three blazers and an acculite nock. I'm thinking about putting in some 20 grain gold tip weights. That would put me at 485 grains and 24%+ foc. Hmmmmm idk.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Beendare said:


> I'm a big proponent for heavy arrows....but not that heavy. My 500gr arrow will do just about anything that 650 will do


You'd think so until you shoot both with proper spine and see the difference.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm glad you can back things up with proof Henro. I was amazed at those test you posted on here. Good stuff bro!


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

I have 20%


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

constitution said:


> can I get heavy brass inserts for 2219s. (those are aluminum arrows for the guys under 30):wink:


*Most guys under 30* I knew exactly what you meant


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

nhns4 said:


> I have 20%


I have seriously been considering that exact head... What are your thoughts on how it spins, tunes etc...


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Ryjax said:


> I have seriously been considering that exact head... What are your thoughts on how it spins, tunes etc...


This one is the Real GK DS185 not the ABS knockoffs. It shoots out of my 32 just fine. Only had it as far as 50 yards but in the woods I hunt 28 yards is a long shot. Spins like a champ and is sharp as the come. 
Screaming at about 244 fps out of my short 27" draw lol


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> For guys interested I've already documented a 650+ build with high FOC and single bevel bh using Victory VAP's here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182.


I finally made it through the whole thread. Very interesting how the design started and where it ended up. I am seriously considering trying this with BE X Impact 250s since they are a little lighter than the VAPs. I just picked up some 85 grain ss muddy half outserts. I am seriously considering the footing idea.. That will increase my FOC quite a bit. I think for this year I will go with my original plan since I am about 2 weeks from season.. Next year though...it's on


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

nhns4 said:


> This one is the Real GK DS185 not the ABS knockoffs. It shoots out of my 32 just fine. Only had it as far as 50 yards but in the woods I hunt 28 yards is a long shot. Spins like a champ and is sharp as the come.
> Screaming at about 244 fps out of my short 27" draw lol


Did you have them before ABS took over the exclusive dealership? I have looked everywhere for actual GKs. I bet we hunt in similar style woods lol extremely thick!


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Ryjax said:


> Did you have them before ABS took over the exclusive dealership? I have looked everywhere for actual GKs. I bet we hunt in similar style woods lol extremely thick!











Yeah I have 9. Only 444 of the DS heads were made. I paid a pretty penny for em lol


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

nhns4 said:


> Yeah I have 9. Only 444 of the DS heads were made. I paid a pretty penny for em lol


I have no doubt! Lol I may try one of the ABS version this year


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Ryjax said:


> I have no doubt! Lol I may try one of the ABS version this year


I've heard decent things about the abs but never tried em.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I was looking at some of the charts on Alaska bowhunting supply website and from their projections of the arrows they are building me at 27.5" long they should be 650gr or slightly above and both above 22% FOC. I am glad to hear this because i was thinking they were gonna be 19-20%. Hoping i will get them tomm but i doubt i do prob be Saturday or Monday before they arrive.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Has anyone tried the Samurai broadhead from their website? I was thinking of trying it out next season if i decide to go with this whole setup.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Got my Grizz Stik arrows in the mail today! The 330 shaft is 662gr with a 23% FOC and the 250 shaft is 658gr with a 23% FOC. Gonna put these bad boys throught the ringer this weekend to see what i think of em.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Got my Grizz Stik arrows in the mail today! The 330 shaft is 662gr with a 23% FOC and the 250 shaft is 658gr with a 23% FOC. Gonna put these bad boys throught the ringer this weekend to see what i think of em.


What weight field points are they built with? Do they ask you what head weight you want to shoot and then adjust insert weight to match or do you have to shoot the head weight they build the arrow to? Don't forget to retune your arrow rest to the new shafts. I see in your sig that you're shooting Injexions so they're going to have a different OD than the Momentum shafts.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Got my Grizz Stik arrows in the mail today! The 330 shaft is 662gr with a 23% FOC and the 250 shaft is 658gr with a 23% FOC. Gonna put these bad boys throught the ringer this weekend to see what i think of em.


Please post pics!!!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

They cam with a 200gr head but that is fine with me i think the more weight up front the better. I am gonna take em to the local shot and shoot through the chronograph in a lil while when they open up. Will get some pics posted for ya Doofy.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> They cam with a 200gr head but that is fine with me i think the more weight up front the better. I am gonna take em to the local shot and shoot through the chronograph in a lil while when they open up. Will get some pics posted for ya Doofy.


I can't wait to hear the results!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I was debating between a 150 and 200gr broadhead anyways


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## Govtrapper (Mar 24, 2012)

Tagged


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Gold tip sells the long allen wrench for their weight system. It only works with their inserts though as they have threads on the back of the inserts. PDP also has an insert weight system for their inserts: http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdp+insert+weight+system_iSPW05_baseitem.html. I was referring to weight tubes: http://www.3riversarchery.com/3Rivers+Arrow+Weight+Tubes_i6731X_baseitem.html.


I used the gold tip system in my maxima arrows as well, I think they will work with most of the carbon shafts as long as the inserts are threaded all the way through and of similar inside diameter! I stacked a 50 and a 20 together, just loc tite them together and into the insert! Blue loc tite!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> They cam with a 200gr head but that is fine with me i think the more weight up front the better. I am gonna take em to the local shot and shoot through the chronograph in a lil while when they open up. Will get some pics posted for ya Doofy.


Ah nice, I saw they sell this new one-piece forged Monarch 200gr screw-in single bevel head which looks pretty tough too: http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Monarch-200-Single-Bevel-Broadheads-3-Pack-P375C71.aspx. Price is a little crazy though at $115/3...


Don't forget to adjust the rest like I mentioned. I just looked up the O.D. on those shafts and it's 0.3150 for the .330 vs 0..239 for the Injexion .390.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

this thread is why I joined at. I am extremely tempted to order the 650 challenge from Alaska bowhunting. what does a dozen cost.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

The only other thing I would do that arrow build is add an external footing like I did on my Victory VAP's and I'd say it'll be pretty indestructible.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

Ashby is a wealth of knowledge, but man is he painful to watch!!! I always shoot feathers with no wraps and no lighted noks, love the control on fixed heads with feathers and they are extremely light! My current arrow is a muddy ht1, cut to 28 inches with there ss 85 grain outsert and razyr feathers, three and four fletch(testing the 4 vs 3). They come in around 480 grains with 100 grain points have not yet measured foc but should be 16-18 percent, would like to bump up to 125s but I have dozens of 100 grain head! May try some drt or strickland 125s!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok guys i got some numbers for ya. The 250 weighs [email protected],65.15 slug ft/sec. The 330 weighs [email protected],65.25 slug ft/sec. Here is my current setup ran throught the same program. Easton 400 injexion [email protected],49.62 slug ft/sec. So as you see the difference is about 16 slug ft/sec of moment change in the two arrows. Now i know alot of guys are not gonna like the distance change but man i thought my bow was quiet before i shot these. All i can say is wow these make your bow even quieter! No this is what i'm experiencing with range so far. For 20yds it moved to 25yds meaning i had to dial my pin down to 25 to hit the right hight at twenty. 30 was 38-39. Now here is where i started seein a bigger gap. 40 was roughly 53. I didn't make it back any farther than that today. The way i look at it if i can get out to fifty or sixty that is more than enough for me and with these i know it will still penetrate at that distance very easily.Anyone wanting to try this i would recommend it because if you do order a dozen arrows within thirty days of the challenge they knock off the $50 you paid for the challenge so you are basically getting a couple arrows for free.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok guys i got some numbers for ya. The 250 weighs [email protected],65.15 slug ft/sec. The 330 weighs [email protected],65.25 slug ft/sec. Here is my current setup ran throught the same program. Easton 400 injexion [email protected],49.62 slug ft/sec. So as you see the difference is about 16 slug ft/sec of moment change in the two arrows. Now i know alot of guys are not gonna like the distance change but man i thought my bow was quiet before i shot these. All i can say is wow these make your bow even quieter! No this is what i'm experiencing with range so far. For 20yds it moved to 25yds meaning i had to dial my pin down to 25 to hit the right hight at twenty. 30 was 38-39. Now here is where i started seein a bigger gap. 40 was roughly 53. I didn't make it back any farther than that today. The way i look at it if i can get out to fifty or sixty that is more than enough for me and with these i know it will still penetrate at that distance very easily.Anyone wanting to try this i would recommend it because if you do order a dozen arrows within thirty days of the challenge they knock off the $50 you paid for the challenge so you are basically getting a couple arrows for free.


so with the 50 you get back what does the dozen cost


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Depends on which shaft you end up getting. From looking at your sig you would probably be a 250 or 330 spine. I think the 330's are 129.99 for six so that puts you at 260 minus the fifty so right at 209.99 and the 250's would be like 249.99. This is their website if you wanna check it out and you don't have to buy a dozen you can buy six but u don't get the fifty dollar discount there. www.alaskabowhuntingsupply.com I know that sounds high but i think the easton injexions are 14.99-15.99 per arrow multiple that by twelve your looking at about 200 dollars so about the same thing


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Depends on which shaft you end up getting. From looking at your sig you would probably be a 250 or 330 spine. I think the 330's are 129.99 for six so that puts you at 260 minus the fifty so right at 209.99 and the 250's would be like 249.99. This is their website if you wanna check it out and you don't have to buy a dozen you can buy six but u don't get the fifty dollar discount there. www.alaskabowhuntingsupply.com I know that sounds high but i think the easton injexions are 14.99-15.99 per arrow multiple that by twelve your looking at about 200 dollars so about the same thing


Thank you... If they are as effective as I believe they are going to be the price doesn't hurt as bad. I think we are to close to the season for that drastic of a change but I believe this will be my future arrow. I will just start saving my pennies now and will be ready for next season.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

constitution said:


> Thank you... If they are as effective as I believe they are going to be the price doesn't hurt as bad. I think we are to close to the season for that drastic of a change but I believe this will be my future arrow. I will just start saving my pennies now and will be ready for next season.


I was shooting with one of my friends today and we were shooting a yellow jakcet bag on the ground. I was shooting at the top right hand dot and i hit it and knocked the bad completely over. I feel the same way you do,to close to season to switch now but 99% sure i am going this route next season.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Henro also had a nice thread he posted on him building his own arrows it is posted in this thread. Check it out if you get a chance Constitution.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I was shooting with one of my friends today and we were shooting a yellow jakcet bag on the ground. I was shooting at the top right hand dot and i hit it and knocked the bad completely over. I feel the same way you do,to close to season to switch now but 99% sure i am going this route next season.


Now that is why I am wanting to try this challenge! However, I think I may go with a set up similar to Henro's. However like you two, I am just going to roll with what I have for now. I have a baby coming in November, so my 3 week sabbatical might be a good time to switch lol


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

If you are willing to sacrifice some speed to shoot this heavy i don't have any doubt in my mind that the penetration will be there with this setup. I was figuring i was gonna be shooting like 215 but when i seen 222 and 223 i was tickled to death lol. Another thing is i have a short 27" draw so that limits me on speed but guys with longer draws that can pull at least 60 or more pounds wouldn't see a huge drop i would imagine a 28" draw with 60 lbs and over would be at least 235 and up in fps.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> If you are willing to sacrifice some speed to shoot this heavy i don't have any doubt in my mind that the penetration will be there with this setup. I was figuring i was gonna be shooting like 215 but when i seen 222 and 223 i was tickled to death lol. Another thing is i have a short 27" draw so that limits me on speed but guys with longer draws that can pull at least 60 or more pounds wouldn't see a huge drop i would imagine a 28" draw with 60 lbs and over would be at least 235 and up in fps.


I'm thinking the same thing... I am wondering what my monster XLR8 at 28" and 70# would do..


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## ngabowhunter (Mar 9, 2006)

I missed the first in 1983 out of a 12 foot ladder stand at about 3 feet. Almost could kick her in the head i was setting on the plat form no seat back then. After i shot she ran back into the woods right under me. Well abouta min. Or so went by and all heck broke loose here came 3 running back out and stop at about 25 or30 and the big doe stood there to long. Sailed one right over her back. They walked off looking back wondering what just happened, it was a 20 year old that did not have a clue what he was doing. Had and old browning bantom compound. When I bought it they never even ask my draw lenght. I had a sight no peep at all. I have made up for those days since.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Just guessing 235-255? I would like to see what your slug ft/sec would be with that


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

I have spent at least 7-10 hours the past 2 days reading and watching the good dr. I am convinced he is dead on in his assessments. one of the things that struck me the most is the studies he sited from other sources on the ratio of lost deer. If those numbers are any were near actual I don't understand why more hunters wouldn't want to have the most lethal arrow they could. I did read all 16 pages of henros journey what struck me the most was what led him to the journey. last year I had a similar situation on a doe and decided this year to go to aluminum arrows to gain more weight. I wish in march when I started this I would have known about this because this is the route I would have went right away. OP thanks for the thread I only hope this catches on with more hunters.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> View attachment 2017893


Those sure are perty!!! Thanks for the pics and thorough information. I sure would love to get some....but man those are some expensive shafts.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I think anyone who has lost a deer or made a bad shot that didn't penetrate needs to look into this and you don't have to go to 650gr if it is too much for you to deal with. But they should def look into uping their FOC and shoot as heavy as they are comfortable with. I have personally made a bad shot with a light fast setup and i know how it feels to lose an animal and now i am setup for the worst case scenario. As the DR said he has never lost an animal due to ,too much penetration. Good luck with your arrow Constitution keep us posted!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Doofy i don't know if you could tell from the pics but these shafts are tapered. Bigger in front tapered to narrow in the back end. Only had my cell to take pics with so the detail might not be that great.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I'm thinking the same thing... I am wondering what my monster XLR8 at 28" and 70# would do..


Check my sig to give you an idea.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> If you are willing to sacrifice some speed to shoot this heavy i don't have any doubt in my mind that the penetration will be there with this setup. I was figuring i was gonna be shooting like 215 but when i seen 222 and 223 i was tickled to death lol. Another thing is i have a short 27" draw so that limits me on speed but guys with longer draws that can pull at least 60 or more pounds wouldn't see a huge drop i would imagine a 28" draw with 60 lbs and over would be at least 235 and up in fps.


Efficiency goes up as arrow weight goes up which is why the calculators can't accurately predict for it.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax looking at Henro's sig i would reguess that you would be about 245-250.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Just wondering, how far are you guys able to practice when your speed goes to the 230fps range. I would like to be able to practice out to 80 yards but am considering going to a 500 grain velocity with a 25%+ foc. I would just go up to a 150 grain point and a ten grain insert weight to my current arrows. Also while I'm at it would a 300 spine velocity be too week with a 110 grain insert and a 150 grain broadhead? It's fletched with blazer vanes and has an acculite nock. Bow would be a bowtech carbon overdrive at 72lbs (will be going back up in draw weight from my sig) and a 26.5 inch draw. Arrows are cut to 24.5 inches.

Sorry if this is considered thread hijacking but I need to know and hey this thread is about building heavy high foc arrows anyway.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

since im shooting 581 grain arrows now the jump to 650 doesn't bother me at all


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

If you can sweet talk Henro he might be able to run that through some of his software he has to be able to tell you fairly quick. I made it to 40 yards so far but i'm guessing with the sight i have now i prob could stretch to 60yds.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

One of the arrows i got is a 330 spine and the other is a 250 so i don't think your spine would be too weak because i'm running a 200gr fp out front.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Just wondering, how far are you guys able to practice when your speed goes to the 230fps range. I would like to be able to practice out to 80 yards but am considering going to a 500 grain velocity with a 25%+ foc. I would just go up to a 150 grain point and a ten grain insert weight to my current arrows. Also while I'm at it would a 300 spine velocity be too week with a 110 grain insert and a 150 grain broadhead? It's fletched with blazer vanes and has an acculite nock. Bow would be a bowtech carbon overdrive at 72lbs (will be going back up in draw weight from my sig) and a 26.5 inch draw. Arrows are cut to 24.5 inches.
> 
> Sorry if this is considered thread hijacking but I need to know and hey this thread is about building heavy high foc arrows anyway.


So looking at your sig you are only gonna bump up about 40 gr so you aren't gonna see a huge drop. Plus you said you were uping your poundage so you may even end up having the same poi? Just a thought with your arrows being that short it is gonna make your shaft even stiffer so you should be fine i would guess


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> One of the arrows i got is a 330 spine and the other is a 250 so i don't think your spine would be too weak because i'm running a 200gr fp out front.


Thanks and yeah I would think it would be okay especially seeing Henro's setup. He has like 290 up front on a 29 inch shaft with a 250 spine. And that is out of an mr5. Maybe I'll just do it and find out I can always go back to what I have now. But man it would be awesome to break 500 grains and 25% foc!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Thanks and yeah I would think it would be okay especially seeing Henro's setup. He has like 290 up front on a 29 inch shaft with a 250 spine. And that is out of an mr5. Maybe I'll just do it and find out I can always go back to what I have now. But man it would be awesome to break 500 grains and 25% foc!


I talked to Henro but he was leaving for the night. He said you could download the software pretty easily pinwheelsoftware.com Just wondering what are you running on the back end of your arrow?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

How much does that Acculite weigh? And vanetech has some vanes 1.75" long that weigh only 2.6gr per vane


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> How much does that Acculite weigh? And vanetech has some vanes 1.75" long that weigh only 2.6gr per vane


The acculite is 8 grains and I have blazers. So I have 26 grains on the back total. With those vanes I would only have like 16 grains on the back. I think that would probably give me a full 1% increase in foc. Do you think those vanes would be able to stabilize the arrow well enough with a helix broadhead? I know my bow needs to be in tune as with all broadhead and fletching combinations but man those things look small


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I talked to Henro but he was leaving for the night. He said you could download the software pretty easily pinwheelsoftware.com Just wondering what are you running on the back end of your arrow?


I have tried to download the trial version but it won't work for me. Maybe the cd version would work?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well another options would be to go with feathers. I'm not a big fan of em due to their durabilty but have to admit they hold a huge weight advantage over a vane. From my understanding of the high FOC arrows when you are that hight it requires less steering from the back in turn getting by with less fletching. I even heard Ashby talk about guys with EUFOC arrows not running any fletching at all? Do a lil research on some of DR. ED Ashby on youtube, www.alaskabowhunting.com,www.tuffhead.com and see what you can get from it because i'm sure different people are going to interprupt the information differently. If you can get your hands on some of those vanes just try it with one arrow to see how it works out?


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## manowar669 (Apr 8, 2009)

If I want to hunt heavy game someday, I'll try something like this. I'm hunting whitetails, and even at 55 fpe, I blow through them every time like they're made of paper. I have a heavier setup that hits 80 fpe, but it's really not needed. I always shoot the lighter setup for hunting. I guess the heavier bow is my training bow (like a MLB batter putting a weight on the bat for training).


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> I have tried to download the trial version but it won't work for me. Maybe the cd version would work?


Ok with what i told you earlier about your shaft being ok, and i'm sure it will be. I was outside shooting these two test arrrows and i have had basically the same results all day. Now you have to take into consideration that i haven't tuned my bow to them. The 250 is flying perfect left two right the only difference being yardage due to overall weight diff. The 330 is consistantly hitting lower and to the right of the 250. Which leads me to believe it is slightly under spined? But my arrows are 27.5" long and yours are two inches shorter than your draw making them alot stiffer. Just some observations i have seen today and thought i would pass it along. I did make it out to 50yds and i'm thinking sixty is gonna be just a hair out of reach with the current sight i am shooting. Afraid sight housing is gonna get to low into flight path if i go past 50,but hunting here i will prob never take a shot at 50yds


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok with what i told you earlier about your shaft being ok, and i'm sure it will be. I was outside shooting these two test arrrows and i have had basically the same results all day. Now you have to take into consideration that i haven't tuned my bow to them. The 250 is flying perfect left two right the only difference being yardage due to overall weight diff. The 330 is consistantly hitting lower and to the right of the 250. Which leads me to believe it is slightly under spined? But my arrows are 27.5" long and yours are two inches shorter than your draw making them alot stiffer. Just some observations i have seen today and thought i would pass it along. I did make it out to 50yds and i'm thinking sixty is gonna be just a hair out of reach with the current sight i am shooting. Afraid sight housing is gonna get to low into flight path if i go past 50,but hunting here i will prob never take a shot at 50yds


Yeah I believe when they hit to right it indicates that your under spined but maybe I'm wrong. I think my spine will be okay though and I think I will give those vanes a try but I will have to wait until next year with the vanes. Especially because I have two dozen fletched up with blazers already. I wish I would have given more consideration into the vanes but I think I'll be more then fine for this year! As for feathers, I love how lightweight they are, but like you I would be worried about the durability. Thanks for all the help and I hope you enjoy your sweet new arrows!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Yeah I believe when they hit to right it indicates that your under spined but maybe I'm wrong. I think my spine will be okay though and I think I will give those vanes a try but I will have to wait until next year with the vanes. Especially because I have two dozen fletched up with blazers already. I wish I would have given more consideration into the vanes but I think I'll be more then fine for this year! As for feathers, I love how lightweight they are, but like you I would be worried about the durability. Thanks for all the help and I hope you enjoy your sweet new arrows!


Thanks man and i'm the only bad thing i'm finding about them is the more i shoot them the more and more i want to buy a dozen and don't really have the funds to do it right now lol. I am def gonna be saving my pennies up to get a dozen. Then i gotta get new broadheads! Oh my you have to love archery! rofl


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> Check my sig to give you an idea.


Yep I bet it will be pretty close. That's pretty dang quick


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> How much does that Acculite weigh? And vanetech has some vanes 1.75" long that weigh only 2.6gr per vane


I looked at those but went with the 1.88 swift cut from vanetec. It only weights 3.2, so the change in FOC was ~.2%


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Thanks man and i'm the only bad thing i'm finding about them is the more i shoot them the more and more i want to buy a dozen and don't really have the funds to do it right now lol. I am def gonna be saving my pennies up to get a dozen. Then i gotta get new broadheads! Oh my you have to love archery! rofl


Ha! It has so many aspects to get addicted to. I am hoping this new FOC infatuation will keep me from buying bows [emoji16]
That's what I'm telling the wife anyway lol


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Just wondering, how far are you guys able to practice when your speed goes to the 230fps range. I would like to be able to practice out to 80 yards but am considering going to a 500 grain velocity with a 25%+ foc. I would just go up to a 150 grain point and a ten grain insert weight to my current arrows. Also while I'm at it would a 300 spine velocity be too week with a 110 grain insert and a 150 grain broadhead? It's fletched with blazer vanes and has an acculite nock. Bow would be a bowtech carbon overdrive at 72lbs (will be going back up in draw weight from my sig) and a 26.5 inch draw. Arrows are cut to 24.5 inches.
> 
> Sorry if this is considered thread hijacking but I need to know and hey this thread is about building heavy high foc arrows anyway.


I just went from shooting 300 fps with a 380 grain arrow to about 232fps with a 590 grain arrow. I can still shoot out to 80 yards without issue. Now i must mention that a lot of that has to do with your sight. Im using a tommy hogg 3pin. So my bottom pin is the one i use as a slider. I can turn it all the way down to 100 yards. With my 5 pin sight i only went out to 70. 

FWIW i wouldnt shoot a velocity at that weight. Yes i know they say they are fine but that arrow is not a very strong arrow. If you want my opinion i think you should shoot a fmj and dont worry so much about the foc. You will still get a lot of foc with a fmj.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That isn't anything to worry about then


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

i was referring to the .02% ryjax was talking about when i said that isn't anything to worry about. Just to clarify


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> i was referring to the .02% ryjax was talking about when i said that isn't anything to worry about. Just to clarify


That's what I thought too... I figured the little bit of extra weight would help with steering even though I know with FOC you don't need as much steering


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I got a feeling you are gonna starting building you some arrows soon!(Ryjax) lol


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Thanks man and i'm the only bad thing i'm finding about them is the more i shoot them the more and more i want to buy a dozen and don't really have the funds to do it right now lol. I am def gonna be saving my pennies up to get a dozen. Then i gotta get new broadheads! Oh my you have to love archery! rofl


Yeah definitely I saw the prices earlier in this thread and all I can say is wow!!!! I'm lucky these velocity xt's are only about $110 a dozen from my local shop and that's finished like fletched and 100 grain inserts installed!


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I got a feeling you are gonna starting building you some arrows soon!(Ryjax) lol


I am slowly ordering all the components to do it lol 
By slowly I mean at least 1 piece a day lol I've spent weeks researching different designs and it is finally coming together. With Henro's help from his VAP build, I think I finally have a solid plan.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

dbow said:


> I just went from shooting 300 fps with a 380 grain arrow to about 232fps with a 590 grain arrow. I can still shoot out to 80 yards without issue. Now i must mention that a lot of that has to do with your sight. Im using a tommy hogg 3pin. So my bottom pin is the one i use as a slider. I can turn it all the way down to 100 yards. With my 5 pin sight i only went out to 70.
> 
> FWIW i wouldnt shoot a velocity at that weight. Yes i know they say they are fine but that arrow is not a very strong arrow. If you want my opinion i think you should shoot a fmj and dont worry so much about the foc. You will still get a lot of foc with a fmj.


Super glad to hear you can still shoot long distances. As for the velocity shafts does anyone else think I have to be worried about strength? I think I'm fine but I do want to foot my arrows next year. Man next year I have a lot of different things to do to my arrows it's gunna be fun!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> I am slowly ordering all the components to do it lol
> By slowly I mean at least 1 piece a day lol I've spent weeks researching different designs and it is finally coming together. With Henro's help from his VAP build, I think I finally have a solid plan.


Nice definitely keep me posted and i'm sure Henro will be more than happy to help if you run into any problems building your arrows. Are you looking to hit the 650gr 19% mark or more focused on the high FOC?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Super glad to hear you can still shoot long distances. As for the velocity shafts does anyone else think I have to be worried about strength? I think I'm fine but I do want to foot my arrows next year. Man next year I have a lot of different things to do to my arrows it's gunna be fun!


I am in the same boat buddy. I wanna get a new rest,sight and a dozen grizz stiks and not to mention new broadheads. Dang i'm gonna be broke before i get started lol


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Nice definitely keep me posted and i'm sure Henro will be more than happy to help if you run into any problems building your arrows. Are you looking to hit the 650gr 19% mark or more focused on the high FOC?


Right now I am going to just focus on FOC, because I am not 100% clear on how to internally and externally foot them. Plus, I will need 250 shafts to get the weight up and keep the FOC over 19%. In the off season, or during my sabbatical, I will begin my actual build that I plan to use moving forward. I have always been a mechanical guy, so when I started this project it my plan was to get over 19% FOC using a 125 grain head. (So I could still shoot mechanicals) However, the more I studied, the more I decided to actually give fixed blades a try (like the exodus and ST Mags). ABS's video of what single bevels will do to bone....now I have some single and double bevel heads lol for the fist time in as far as I can think, I will have a quiver of fixed blades (minus the 1 Hypodermic 125 I want to test)... Pretty crazy how it has transformed


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I am currently shooting the single bevel helix and i found a video of a guy that builds targets and he experienced the same thing i did when i started practicing with this head in my deer and rinehart block target. I can't shoot either one now lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8HKFw5t6k


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I am in the same boat buddy. I wanna get a new rest,sight and a dozen grizz stiks and not to mention new broadheads. Dang i'm gonna be broke before i get started lol


What broadheads are you thinking of getting? Just curious because you already have the single bevel helix in your sig.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> What broadheads are you thinking of getting? Just curious because you already have the single bevel helix in your sig.


Ya those are the deep six thread that fit on my injexion's. Looking at the Samurai and Monarch from Alaska bowhunting supply. Gonna need a 200 grain also and the strickland helix i have are only 100gr


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> Right now I am going to just focus on FOC, because I am not 100% clear on how to internally and externally foot them. Plus, I will need 250 shafts to get the weight up and keep the FOC over 19%. In the off season, or during my sabbatical, I will begin my actual build that I plan to use moving forward. I have always been a mechanical guy, so when I started this project it my plan was to get over 19% FOC using a 125 grain head. (So I could still shoot mechanicals) However, the more I studied, the more I decided to actually give fixed blades a try (like the exodus and ST Mags). ABS's video of what single bevels will do to bone....now I have some single and double bevel heads lol for the fist time in as far as I can think, I will have a quiver of fixed blades (minus the 1 Hypodermic 125 I want to test)... Pretty crazy how it has transformed


If you go back earlier in this thread i remember someone posting the twelve factors of penetration and i believe FOC is above arrow weight and arrow mass above heavy bone threshold. That is if you don't encounter heavy bone.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Guys i'm out for the night i will catch up with ya tomm.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> If you go back earlier in this thread i remember someone posting the twelve factors of penetration and i believe FOC is above arrow weight and arrow mass above heavy bone threshold. That is if you don't encounter heavy bone.


That was me lol which is why I focused on FOC first


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well you are def heading in the right direction then in my opinion .


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## MO/ARK (Jun 16, 2004)

Didnt quite make 650, but a got a good deal on some gt velocity 300s. 567 grains at 24.5% foc.... not much going to stop the 190 grain tree shark or any one of the other 100 grain broadheads im shootin this year. Real excited to see these things work their magic this year!!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

MO/ARK said:


> Didnt quite make 650, but a got a good deal on some gt velocity 300s. 567 grains at 24.5% foc.... not much going to stop the 190 grain tree shark or any one of the other 100 grain broadheads im shootin this year. Real excited to see these things work their magic this year!!


Nice sounds like a solid setup man! Keep us posted with your relsults and some pics?


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

How are you guys measuring your arrows for FOC? End of carbon, or tip of broad head to nock point?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

The way i do it is from the throat of the knock to the end of the shaft. From what i understand of it is you don't measure to the tip of fp or bh because you can have the same weight and have to different percentages of FOC due to change in length. I believe this is the AMO standard also


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## hillscreekkid (Sep 4, 2012)

I was looking hard a the 650 challenge. But ended up going with the bloodsport One . Last year I shoot CX maxima hunter with 100 grain tip. I think it was around 390 grains and 10%foc.
The bloodsports with the aps outsert and 125 grain point put me at 530 grains and 17%foc and 249fps


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> The way i do it is from the throat of the knock to the end of the shaft. From what i understand of it is you don't measure to the tip of fp or bh because you can have the same weight and have to different percentages of FOC due to change in length. I believe this is the AMO standard also


That is the correct method.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> The way i do it is from the throat of the knock to the end of the shaft. From what i understand of it is you don't measure to the tip of fp or bh because you can have the same weight and have to different percentages of FOC due to change in length. I believe this is the AMO standard also


Yes that is the AMO standard that's how I measure mine. Throat of the nock to end of carbon excluding the insert. But with a footing is it measured the same way? Or is it from the throat of the nock to the back of the footing?


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

I think in henros thread a gentlemen said he spoke with doctor ashby and was told the 650 Is first and foremost before the foc


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

constitution said:


> I think in henros thread a gentlemen said he spoke with doctor ashby and was told the 650 Is first and foremost before the foc


Yes, that is correct. However, if you read Dr. Ashby's articles or watch his videos, you will find that is only true if you are after heavy boned animals. (Like moose, buffalo, African game etc..) The list I showed on the first or second page came right out of one of his more recent videos.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I think if you can stand it,go to 650gr but if not get as heavy as you are comfortable with and concentrate on uping your FOC. I do believe it is more than that though as all twleve steps seem to tie together as you get deeper and deeper into thinking about the penetration factors.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

the thing about the efoc is I would like to keep shooting aluminum arrows and I think it will be difficult. for the efoc you really need to start with a light gpi carbon arrow. I think I could get my 2219s to 650 pretty easy its the foc I will have a hard time with.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I tried an experiment with my friend and his son this evening with a heavier arrow with higher FOC. I am gonna state that alot of people aren't gonna believe me when i tell this one. Okay my friends son is ten and he shoots a bear apprentice on like prob 11-15lbs. He was shooting a Gold Tip Lightning i think they are called?(Not recommened for bows over 35 lbs.) Now i have no idea what his arrows weighed what so ever but he was all over the place. I think the arrows had like a 55 gr FP probably. I was showing his son my 650gr arrows yesterday and he wanted to shoot a heavier arrow,so after he shot his four i let him shoot a 400 Gold Tip 381gr with a 145gr fp up front(something like 17.5% FOC). The shot went off and wham rigtht in the bullseye. His dad looked at me with disbelief on his face. So i let hime shoot a 400 Injexion with a 100gr fp (approx 13.4% FOC) and bam right in the bullseye again. At this point his dad couldn't argue that the heavier arrow flew a heck of alot better. I myself was kinda surprised how well it shot off the low poundage bow for the weight of it. But my friend is one of those guys that it is gonna take a bad shot to convince him that he needs to go heavy as he is comfortable with and a high FOC. I think i have the High FOC proved to him by the demonstration his son did with his bow this evening. Oh i didn't mention we were at like 15yd i believe. Just thought i would post this for some of the doubters that a heavy arrow is better.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I forgot to mention that the boy said after we were done shooting i like those heavy arrrows dad.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

after this season is over im going to spend my winter trying to build the perfect heavy arrow. this is a path I really believe in. I called and talked to the folks at Alaska bowhunting and they seem like great people but I am probably going to build my own.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

constitution said:


> after this season is over im going to spend my winter trying to build the perfect heavy arrow. this is a path I really believe in. I called and talked to the folks at Alaska bowhunting and they seem like great people but I am probably going to build my own.


This was my conclusion too. I really like small and micro diameter shafts, so I will definitely go that route. Still not sure how I am going to so the footing though.


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## opie20wv (Dec 29, 2009)

my footing is the firenock aero-outserts on my black eagle deep impacts - it's an almost bulletproof system if you do your arrow prep and glue right - I'm actually shooting x-impacts this year since my deep impact .250's are discontinued


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

This is my set up
Chill X 74 lbs maxed out. 27 inch draw length 
Arrows are WIDOWMAKER SMASH 250 with a outsert 13.3 gr. per inch / Broadhead are the TUFFHEAD 225 with the 75 gr. titanium insert. Arrows/ Broadheads weigh 759 grains

Extreme FOC is 21.05%
Arrow weight grains 759
Arrow velocity ft/ sec. 205
Kinetic Energy ft / lbs. 70.81
Momentum slug ft/ sec. 69.09
Can't wait to stick something with them!
What do you guys think of this set up?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Very nice you are shooting a train off your bow. What sight are you shooting?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

kimbro25 said:


> This is my set up
> Chill X 74 lbs maxed out. 27 inch draw length
> Arrows are WIDOWMAKER SMASH 250 with a outsert 13.3 gr. per inch / Broadhead are the TUFFHEAD 225 with the 75 gr. titanium insert. Arrows/ Broadheads weigh 759 grains
> 
> ...


Holy smokes! Lol talk about laying the hammer down!


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

IQ Retina Lock


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

kimbro25 said:


> This is my set up
> Chill X 74 lbs maxed out. 27 inch draw length
> Arrows are WIDOWMAKER SMASH 250 with a outsert 13.3 gr. per inch / Broadhead are the TUFFHEAD 225 with the 75 gr. titanium insert. Arrows/ Broadheads weigh 759 grains
> 
> ...


sweet


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

kimbro25 said:


> This is my set up
> Chill X 74 lbs maxed out. 27 inch draw length
> Arrows are WIDOWMAKER SMASH 250 with a outsert 13.3 gr. per inch / Broadhead are the TUFFHEAD 225 with the 75 gr. titanium insert. Arrows/ Broadheads weigh 759 grains
> 
> ...


which outsert?


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

constitution said:


> which outsert?


It comes with the arrows WIDOWMAKER 250 from Australia 
WWW. Trophybowhunts .com.au 
Check these arrows out they are TUFF!


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## 32Ballew (Mar 29, 2014)

29.5" grizzlystick 250, 711 total gn, 26% foc.
Tuffhead meat head with titanium adt, 270gn
3" truflight feathers
Bowtech 360 rpm 70# 29.25" dl
241 ft/sec
91.86 ft/lbs ke
76.08 slug ft/sec momentum.

Best setup on earth.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

32Ballew said:


> 29.5" grizzlystick 250, 711 total gn, 26% foc.
> Tuffhead meat head with titanium adt, 270gn
> 3" truflight feathers
> Bowtech 360 rpm 70# 29.25" dl
> ...


You did the thread on 750 grains with the rpm right? I'm glad to see you are enjoying the setup!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

kimbro25 said:


> IQ Retina Lock



How far out can you shoot? since you are only shoot 205fps?


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> How far out can you shoot? since you are only shoot 205fps?


40 yards as of right now, just getting everything setup.
My goal is 50 yards but we will see.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

kimbro25 said:


> 40 yards as of right now, just getting everything setup.
> My goal is 50 yards but we will see.


With the 658gr grizz stik 250 i'm shooting about 223fps. I am shooting the trophy rigdge react one and it only works correctly with bows that shoot over 250fps. I am looking into the hogg father or tommy hogg for next season. With the current sight i can shoot out to fifty and prob make sixty but haven't had the oppurtunity to shoot at 60 yd yet


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> With the 658gr grizz stik 250 i'm shooting about 223fps. I am shooting the trophy rigdge react one and it only works correctly with bows that shoot over 250fps. I am looking into the hogg father or tommy hogg for next season. With the current sight i can shoot out to fifty and prob make sixty but haven't had the oppurtunity to shoot at 60 yd yet


My goal was to have arrows that was right at 650 grains , I went over.
Sick of the light setups. I'am happy with the way everything shoots.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

32Ballew said:


> 29.5" grizzlystick 250, 711 total gn, 26% foc.
> Tuffhead meat head with titanium adt, 270gn
> 3" truflight feathers
> Bowtech 360 rpm 70# 29.25" dl
> ...


Sounds like beast mode! How was it getting the adapters glued in and getting the heads to spin true? That's the only thing that's kept me from glue ons with adapters after watchin my buddy have issues with them. Just seemed like a big pain. He even had Abowyer do it for him and they came out like **** and still didn't spin true.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ya i am very pleased with how this challenge is goin so far. My next goal is to get my friend convinced that shooting a heavier arrow is better. I think he is ate up with speed a lil bit and it will take him a bad shot with a light setup to realize he needs to shoot a heavier arrow.


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## 32Ballew (Mar 29, 2014)

The adaptor fits perfectly. I had no problem. Used JB weld. Next time around ill cut 25 grains off the front of the adaptor. It's going to be tempting to aim for bone.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

Due to this thread I've decided not to use a Bow this year. Instead im just going to throw bricks at the deer as they walk by. I've been lifting weights so I think I can get out to around 9 yards. Or is the brick not heavy enough? ... I could switch to cinder blocks.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Dang you took my idea!:sad:


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

kimbro25 said:


> It comes with the arrows WIDOWMAKER 250 from Australia
> WWW. Trophybowhunts .com.au
> Check these arrows out they are TUFF!


thank you I will


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

32Ballew said:


> 29.5" grizzlystick 250, 711 total gn, 26% foc.
> Tuffhead meat head with titanium adt, 270gn
> 3" truflight feathers
> Bowtech 360 rpm 70# 29.25" dl
> ...


now that's an arrow


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

No that is a missle. lol :mg:


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

constitution said:


> now that's an arrow


Yes, sir


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## kimbro25 (Nov 22, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> No that is a missle. lol :mg:


Did you /you tube the arrows?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Has anyone been keeping tabs on the thread "Ke alone doesn't tell you" wow that is getting heated alot of non believers that heavier is better. Also check out "Southern Ohio giant is all i can say". That may be a new world record typical if not then a state record!


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Has anyone been keeping tabs on the thread "Ke alone doesn't tell you" wow that is getting heated alot of non believers that heavier is better. Also check out "Southern Ohio giant is all i can say". That may be a new world record typical if not then a state record!


I read quite a bit about OG... I really hope that buck is a fair chase buck, and someone is able to put him down.
I read a little bit of the other thread.... I have this debate with my hunting buddies all the time. They like to shoot light fast arrows, and I like to shoot medium to heavy arrows. They think I'm crazy, I think they are crazy lol it's a never ending debate


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

There was a guy on ther talking about shooting a 300gr arrow out of an 80lb bow! I posted that if you shoot that arrow out of an 80lb bow the arrow will more than likely explode and go through your arm!:mg:


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax sent you a PM


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> There was a guy on ther talking about shooting a 300gr arrow out of an 80lb bow! I posted that if you shoot that arrow out of an 80lb bow the arrow will more than likely explode and go through your arm!:mg:


Definitely dangerous, but I think High Country makes an arrow specifically for that. I can't remember the name of them though. 
There is a guy that comes in my local shop all the time that shoots this setup:
80# Full Throttle
400 spine easton flatline
Either 75 or 85 grain BH
Shooting over 400fps... 
I know a lot of people will think I'm full of it, but he is the guy pictured on Wac'em Broadheads. He is also big buddies with Pete Shepley. They hunt together in Africa quite a bit. He said Pete helped him design the set up.


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## RightWing (Aug 22, 2004)

If any of you folks are needing any Grizzly Stik "Alaskans" I have 6 (5 uncut, and un-shot)that I would give you a good deal on. Just PM me if interested.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> Definitely dangerous, but I think High Country makes an arrow specifically for that. I can't remember the name of them though.
> There is a guy that comes in my local shop all the time that shoots this setup:
> 80# Full Throttle
> 400 spine easton flatline
> ...


That bow only goes up to 70lbs.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

There was a guy posting on there about a high country shooting something like 400 fps


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Has anyone been keeping tabs on the thread "Ke alone doesn't tell you" wow that is getting heated alot of non believers that heavier is better. Also check out "Southern Ohio giant is all i can say". That may be a new world record typical if not then a state record!


Those topics have been covered on much more informative threads in the past: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2064902. New ones pop up every year because nobody knows how to use the search function.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

RightWing said:


> If any of you folks are needing any Grizzly Stik "Alaskans" I have 6 (5 uncut, and un-shot)that I would give you a good deal on. Just PM me if interested.


Just kinda curious why you selling them?


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## RightWing (Aug 22, 2004)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Just kinda curious why you selling them?


I ended up going with another arrow that I was experimenting with while they were building/shipping the Grizzly Stiks. I just cut one and shot it some, and decided to keep shooting the other arrow that I was shooting in the interim.

They are good arrow, from some folks that make/sell some high quality gear.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> That bow only goes up to 70lbs.


Unless you are sponsored by PSE and big buddies with Pete. We can only buy the bow at 70#, but I have seen his 80#er.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> Unless you are sponsored by PSE and big buddies with Pete. We can only buy the bow at 70#, but I have seen his 80#er.


Hope he likes .400 spine carbon splinters in his arms.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Of course it helps that the guy is a multi millionaire too


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> Hope he likes .400 spine carbon splinters in his arms.


Yeah...that's what I thought. I asked him if he had a death wish, and he just laughed. Later he told me that he and Pete are such speed freaks that they wanted to have a setup that consistently reaches 400 fps while hunting... I think they are nuts lol


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

henro said:


> Hope he likes .400 spine carbon splinters in his arms.


that's what i'm preaching!:77:


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Has anyone been keeping tabs on the thread "Ke alone doesn't tell you" wow that is getting heated alot of non believers that heavier is better. Also check out "Southern Ohio giant is all i can say". That may be a new world record typical if not then a state record!


Yes that ke alone thread is pretty ridiculous. Why can't people admit that the heavier arrow will penetrate more?! Then they always go to "with modern equipment you have plenty of penetration with light arrows." Well that's fine I'm sure they do and no one is saying that they don't, but I want to maximize my bows performance so a heavy arrow with lots of foc is what I want. Luckily I have stayed out of that thread lol


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Yes that ke alone thread is pretty ridiculous. Why can't people admit that the heavier arrow will penetrate more?! Then they always go to "with modern equipment you have plenty of penetration with light arrows." Well that's fine I'm sure they do and no one is saying that they don't, but I want to maximize my bows performance so a heavy arrow with lots of foc is what I want. Luckily I have stayed out of that thread lol


Ya i made a post early on but after that i bolted cause man it was getting heated in there lol


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Yes that ke alone thread is pretty ridiculous. Why can't people admit that the heavier arrow will penetrate more?! *Then they always go to "with modern equipment you have plenty of penetration with light arrows.*" Well that's fine I'm sure they do and no one is saying that they don't, but I want to maximize my bows performance so a heavy arrow with lots of foc is what I want. Luckily I have stayed out of that thread lol


To the guys that say that, I show this thread: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1859108.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

henro said:


> To the guys that say that, I show this thread: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1859108.


Haha yeah and you would think that would shut them up but they always just keep trying to work around it lol. Oh well I won't be the one loosing sleep over them hitting heavy bone and not getting any penetration.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ya i made a post early on but after that i bolted cause man it was getting heated in there lol


Yeah I had followed it until the second page and then from there is seems like it's mainly all arguing lol


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Anyways this is the 650 challenge anyone else uping their weight and trying this out?


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## BullBandit (Sep 17, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Anyways this is the 650 challenge anyone else uping their weight and trying this out?


I don't know about 650 but I will be uping my weight next season. It's a little to close to this season for me to be changing anything


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

BullBandit said:


> I don't know about 650 but I will be uping my weight next season. It's a little to close to this season for me to be changing anything


There are sever of us that are in your same position. I think we discovered shooting heavier arrows is better a lil too late in the year to change. Wish i would have found out all about this back in January!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

BullBandit said:


> I don't know about 650 but I will be uping my weight next season. It's a little to close to this season for me to be changing anything


Any plans yet for what weight and arrow combination your gonna build? This thread has some killer arrows so far


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## BullBandit (Sep 17, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Any plans yet for what weight and arrow combination your gonna build? This thread has some killer arrows so far


I've been kicking the idea around of kinetics with 125 grain head and 30-50 grains up front. I'd like to mess around with an overall weight of 475-500. I know it's not as heavy as others have posted but heavier than where I'm at now. Not that I can speak bad about the 400 I shoot now. The elk I've taken cant speak to bad about it either  I do see more positives than negatives with the heavier arrow


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## LSUGOLFER (Nov 1, 2013)

I've been contemplating the 650 challenge since the spring but never did. I'm shooting 500 grains with a GT 300 Hunter with 125 exodus and 70 grains of total insert weight using the FACT system. Fly great and hit pretty hard. I may dabble with the 650's after the season.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I ordered a test broadhead from abs called the monarch. It is a 200 gr forged single bevel head. I recieved it in the mail today and man is this thing sweet. Will try to post some pics later of it attached to the grizz stik 250


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I ordered a test broadhead from abs called the monarch. It is a 200 gr forged single bevel head. I recieved it in the mail today and man is this thing sweet. Will try to post some pics later of it attached to the grizz stik 250


That head looked pretty mean, and damn $$$!


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I ordered a test broadhead from abs called the monarch. It is a 200 gr forged single bevel head. I recieved it in the mail today and man is this thing sweet. Will try to post some pics later of it attached to the grizz stik 250


Pics!


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

BullBandit said:


> I've been kicking the idea around of kinetics with 125 grain head and 30-50 grains up front. I'd like to mess around with an overall weight of 475-500. I know it's not as heavy as others have posted but heavier than where I'm at now. Not that I can speak bad about the 400 I shoot now. The elk I've taken cant speak to bad about it either  I do see more positives than negatives with the heavier arrow


I'll built kinetics with the easton brass hit insert footed....very tough setup, I was at 525 grains, 28" long 300 spine 75 grain insert with a 125 grain head, 18.5% foc, bad thru the bone


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

sethro02 said:


> I'll built kinetics with the easton brass hit insert footed....very tough setup, I was at 525 grains, 28" long 300 spine 75 grain insert with a 125 grain head, 18.5% foc, bad thru the bone


I want to say I built, not "I'll"


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I think I was at about 600 grains last year shooting 28.5 inch Gold Tips with feathers and a 250 grain VPA up front. Man they packed a punch, although they definitely dropped faster than my 125gr broadheads of the past. I am going to try the 175gr VPA 3 blade this year probably about 500gr total arrow for a little flatter shooting. If I don't get the penetration, I will go back to the 250gr head.


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## kdog23 (Jan 30, 2012)

DaneHunter said:


> Due to this thread I've decided not to use a Bow this year. Instead im just going to throw bricks at the deer as they walk by. I've been lifting weights so I think I can get out to around 9 yards. Or is the brick not heavy enough? ... I could switch to cinder blocks.


Sweet.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

This heads look awesome man! So I finished my built today. It came out like this:
BE X Impact
Cut 27" 
85 grain muddy ss insert/outsert
125 grain head 
Wrap 
Vanetec swift 1.88"
Nocturnal g nock

474-476 grains 20.58% FOC

Here's the bad... I shot them about 20 times and noticed some crazy arrow flight...so I gave all 11 of them a spin test...NONE of them spun well...they were all junk... Back to the drawing board


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Ryjax said:


> This heads look awesome man! So I finished my built today. It came out like this:
> BE X Impact
> Cut 27"
> 85 grain muddy ss insert/outsert
> ...


Man I'm sorry to here that! What other inserts are there that fit that shaft?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> This heads look awesome man! So I finished my built today. It came out like this:
> BE X Impact
> Cut 27"
> 85 grain muddy ss insert/outsert
> ...


Dude that sucks sorry to hear that man.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

It's all good guys. I will probably just pull out the old faithful FMJs for this year. 
Unfortunately there isn't an insert out there that will give me the weight and length I need. I might go the axis route next year or grizzly stiks... Not sure yet


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## Grizzlemethis (May 10, 2014)

For anyone thats done the actual challenge where you call Alaska Supply and they send you 2 arrows for 50 bucks. What did they put on the end of the arrow, head wise. Im curious if they set up the arrow where like a 125gr can be used or if they are setting them so you have to use one of their giant 175gr?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Grizzlemethis said:


> For anyone thats done the actual challenge where you call Alaska Supply and they send you 2 arrows for 50 bucks. What did they put on the end of the arrow, head wise. Im curious if they set up the arrow where like a 125gr can be used or if they are setting them so you have to use one of their giant 175gr?


they set me up with a 200gr fp but regardless wether u put it in extra weight behind the insert or the fp you are gonna end up with the same amount of weight of front to achieve the FOC your looking for


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## followthrough (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok so after looking over some different options of how to do this I can get to 613-638 without much effort which i think will be close enough. But here is the thing it will mean 300-325 grains up front.... I would like to do it with black eagle carnivores making the FOC easier to get down, however after a 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain insert wight plus a point even cutting the .250 spine down to 28 inches what kind of draw weight would i need 55-60 lbs?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

followthrough said:


> Ok so after looking over some different options of how to do this I can get to 613-638 without much effort which i think will be close enough. But here is the thing it will mean 300-325 grains up front.... I would like to do it with black eagle carnivores making the FOC easier to get down, however after a 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain insert wight plus a point even cutting the .250 spine down to 28 inches what kind of draw weight would i need 55-60 lbs?


I'm not real sure what you are asking here? if you are gonna go this heavy the more weight you pull the farther you are going to be able to shoot. Another thing you posted that you wanted to get the FOC down? Why would you want to do that? The whole idea is to get your FOC higher for better penetration.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

followthrough said:


> Ok so after looking over some different options of how to do this I can get to 613-638 without much effort which i think will be close enough. But here is the thing it will mean 300-325 grains up front.... I would like to do it with black eagle carnivores making the FOC easier to get down, however after a 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain insert wight plus a point even cutting the .250 spine down to 28 inches what kind of draw weight would i need 55-60 lbs?


Depending on the bow and your DL...you could shoot all the way up to 70. Henro is shooting a .250 spine shaft at 29" DL with a burning MR5. I bet he has around or over 300 grains up front.


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## redcarpet (Mar 31, 2013)

http://www.questproductsusa.com/power punch.html.

Look at these, I cannot find an insert weight but I bet they are around 15 grains. I also think they may be threaded all the way through so will accept screw in weights. These shafts are a tapered design and should penetrate like crazy. I have shot their Thumper line at around 400 grains and got unreal penetration on live game with up to 1 1/4" expandable broadheads. These are a made in the USA shaft. Also made in USA and tapered are the Nitro Stinger shafts, made in Kansas. 
The design keeps F.O.C up due to having more shaft material at the front making it easy to hit 18%+, the only issue is getting to 600 or more grains if that is what you want. If a 500-550 grain arrow with 18% or more F.O.C is your goal it can easily be had with these shafts and 125 grains of more up front. 
I wish more arrow shaft manufacturers would offer a tapered design arrow as they oscillate less and recover from paradox faster after the shot, also penetrate better because the smaller diameter lighter backend does not flex as much on impact with something hard.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

redcarpet said:


> http://www.questproductsusa.com/power punch.html.
> 
> Look at these, I cannot find an insert weight but I bet they are around 15 grains. I also think they may be threaded all the way through so will accept screw in weights. These shafts are a tapered design and should penetrate like crazy. I have shot their Thumper line at around 400 grains and got unreal penetration on live game with up to 1 1/4" expandable broadheads. These are a made in the USA shaft. Also made in USA and tapered are the Nitro Stinger shafts, made in Kansas.
> The design keeps F.O.C up due to having more shaft material at the front making it easy to hit 18%+, the only issue is getting to 600 or more grains if that is what you want. If a 500-550 grain arrow with 18% or more F.O.C is your goal it can easily be had with these shafts and 125 grains of more up front.
> I wish more arrow shaft manufacturers would offer a tapered design arrow as they oscillate less and recover from paradox faster after the shot, also penetrate better because the smaller diameter lighter backend does not flex as much on impact with something hard.


I'm very interesting in looking at these, but I cannot get your URL to work.


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## redcarpet (Mar 31, 2013)

Ryjax said:


> I'm very interesting in looking at these, but I cannot get your URL to work.


Ok. Google questproductsusa and see if that works, if not try to google quest power punch shafts and see what you come up with. There is a drop down menu on the side for different colors, yellow or orange for different spines. Also home tab is at the bottom which will let you look at the Thumper line of shafts.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That looks like you could be able to achieve what your looking for with those shafts and they are made in U.S.A.


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## redcarpet (Mar 31, 2013)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> That looks like you could be able to achieve what your looking for with those shafts and they are made in U.S.A.


I like them. Have shot the Nitro Stinger shafts when they were using their own nock design and had decent luck, just didn't like the problems with the shaft splitting on nock end. They have fixed this issue with a new nock set-up.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

redcarpet said:


> I like them. Have shot the Nitro Stinger shafts when they were using their own nock design and had decent luck, just didn't like the problems with the shaft splitting on nock end. They have fixed this issue with a new nock set-up.


I just looked at them, and that is exactly what I am looking for. Where can I order some power punch arrows? I went to opi and it won't let me order. Also what is the difference between orange and HD? They both appear to be 300 spine


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## redcarpet (Mar 31, 2013)

Click on the Yellow tab, they are a .425 spine. Pm sent.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

the websites for the power punch arrows leave a little to be desired


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## redcarpet (Mar 31, 2013)

constitution said:


> the websites for the power punch arrows leave a little to be desired


Yep. The Thumper tab is a bit better. A little advertisement would really help these arrows be a top competitor in sales.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I played around with the Quest thumper arrows back in 2010. They are nice arrows and really durable but I had consistency issues with flight. I have heard their quality control has improved. Quest arrows are made by Arrow Dynamics to their specifications. Just like the Grizz Stix I believe are also made by Arrow Dynamics. AD's PTP arrow is pretty much the same thing as Quest's power punch and available in more spine choices.

Arrow Dynamics: www.nitrostinger.com
Quest Products USA: http://www.questproductsusa.com/index.html

To order Quest arrows you pretty much have to call Quest or OPI and order them direct.


I was shooting FMJ's but had durability issues as well as a broadhead failure which left an undesirable taste in my mouth. So I began searching for an arrow that I liked. A couple bad choices later and I ended up with Easton ACC and ACC Pro Hunting shafts. Unlike a lot of you I have a long draw at 31", that means I have long arrows. Long arrows and high poundage is not very friendly for achieving high FOC while staying properly spined. I will say that a lot more choices have become available in the sub .300 spine category than there was back when I started my arrow search. So it is good to see that. I probably would have stayed with the thumper arrows if the QC had been better at the time.

There is a lengthy thread on here about EFOC that is chock full of information. A lot of it is older, back when the choices were not as plentiful, but the knowledge is still there. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1097703


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## redcarpet (Mar 31, 2013)

Kaizoku said:


> I played around with the Quest thumper arrows back in 2010. They are nice arrows and really durable but I had consistency issues with flight. I have heard their quality control has improved. Quest arrows are made by Arrow Dynamics to their specifications. Just like the Grizz Stix I believe are also made by Arrow Dynamics. AD's PTP arrow is pretty much the same thing as Quest's power punch and available in more spine choices.
> 
> Arrow Dynamics: www.nitrostinger.com
> Quest Products USA: http://www.questproductsusa.com/index.html
> ...


When I ordered a couple Grizz Stix to play with I was told they were made in Korea. I am now back to trying to buy/shoot American made items as much as possible and sent the Grizzly's to another home


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

redcarpet said:


> When I ordered a couple Grizz Stix to play with I was told they were made in Korea. I am now back to trying to buy/shoot American made items as much as possible and sent the Grizzly's to another home


Good to know. I think they used to be made by AD though. It's all about profit margins.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Just wanted to post an update. I talked to Ryjax and he called up the quest company and they no longer manufacture those arrows. They have some in stock but that would be kind of pointless to get hooked on an arrow that is no longer made?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Unless you buy up their remaining stock. Which could be hundreds of arrows. Like I said the Stinger PTP arrows are the same thing.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Kaizoku said:


> Unless you buy up their remaining stock. Which could be hundreds of arrows. Like I said the Stinger PTP arrows are the same thing.


I liked the PTP too, but I read somewhere that their quality is not as good as Quest. Do you have experience with the PTP?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I don't have any experience with the PTP shafts but longbow42 does. I only have experience with the Thumpers and as I said I liked them but I didn't feel the QC was there. I have been sticking with ACC's lately. If Easton would make a .250 ACC that would be my arrow of choice. But they only go to .300". So I use what I can.

It seems the guy at Arrow Dynamics doesn't take much stock in his customer service or QC. I have exchanged emails with him in the past and his responses were lacking or didn't answer my questions. From what I've heard his sorting process could use improvement. He has done it the way he has done it for so long that why should he change his ways for the new emerging market base that wants super match set arrows? Doesn't take away from the product but it isn't a desirable situation either. Some people aren't cut out for customer service. Keep them in the kitchen sort of thing.

But it has been a while since I have made any contact with him. Maybe he has changed his ways?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I think if Easton would make some kind of weight accessory for the injexion i would probably be in love! lol


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I think if Easton would make some kind of weight accessory for the injexion i would probably be in love! lol


If they would make a lighter Injextion with the right half outsert or outsert I would be sold! Then again if I didn't shoot a 70# speed bow, I would have more options


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## HISCRAMENESS (Sep 27, 2010)

Subscribed


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

have you made up your mind what you are gonna build next Ryjax?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok guys i have my tommy hogg on the way and i sold some broadheads and my sight so i will probably be getting my grizz stiks next weeK! I make have all my new setup before season starts! The last thing i need to get would be some broadheads and a broadhead sharpener.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok guys i have my tommy hogg on the way and i sold some broadheads and my sight so i will probably be getting my grizz stiks next weeK! I make have all my new setup before season starts! The last thing i need to get would be some broadheads and a broadhead sharpener.


Buy a KME broadhead sharpener, I promise you will not be disappointed.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

+1 for KME...I like the 250gr VPA Penetrators.

What arrows are you guys shooting with your 650 grain setups?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

henro said:


> Buy a KME broadhead sharpener, I promise you will not be disappointed.


what degree bevel does that have on it and how much do they run?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> what degree bevel does that have on it and how much do they run?


Don't know off top of my head.


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## bphillips (Jan 26, 2009)

If any of you guys have a program could you let me know how much weight I could put on the end of a .250 spine arrow including insert, head, and insert weights please? My setup is an Xcentric at 65/29.5 and the arrow would be 28.25-28.5 carbon to carbon.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

bphillips said:


> If any of you guys have a program could you let me know how much weight I could put on the end of a .250 spine arrow including insert, head, and insert weights please? My setup is an Xcentric at 65/29.5 and the arrow would be 28.25-28.5 carbon to carbon.


you should be able to run quite a bit, my grizz stiks are 250 spine and the fp itself is 200gr plus a 78gr insert and i'm sure they have weight behind the insert as well. How much you looking to put out front?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> have you made up your mind what you are gonna build next Ryjax?


I tried to call ABS today to take the challenge thinking it would give me some ideas, but no luck getting in touch with them... Still completely undecided what to shoot.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Hey does anyone know if victory still makes the high velocity series? If so how low of spine does it go? I want a super super light .250 spine.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Hey does anyone know if victory still makes the high velocity series? If so how low of spine does it go? I want a super super light .250 spine.


Wait never mind this I finally found some info on them and the lowest they go is the 300 spine. But I just saw that the 300's are 6.9 grains per inch!!! Wow!! I could probably get ultra extreme foc with those!!! But I think they would only be about 450 grains. Hmmmm I think I might make some in the off season.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> I tried to call ABS today to take the challenge thinking it would give me some ideas, but no luck getting in touch with them... Still completely undecided what to shoot.


Hey i forgot to tell you they are on pacific time so there is like a three hour difference between eastern and pacific


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Wait never mind this I finally found some info on them and the lowest they go is the 300 spine. But I just saw that the 300's are 6.9 grains per inch!!! Wow!! I could probably get ultra extreme foc with those!!! But I think they would only be about 450 grains. Hmmmm I think I might make some in the off season.


Be wary of going too light because durability goes out the window more often than not. People have broken light gpi victories just by shooting their foam targets.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I agree with that but what i wanna know is how do they get the arrow to have a 300 or 250 spine with only 6-7 gr per inch? I believe the axis 500 or 600 is like 6 somehting per inch?


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Kaizoku said:


> Be wary of going too light because durability goes out the window more often than not. People have broken light gpi victories just by shooting their foam targets.


Yeah I would be worried about durability. I wouldn't even think about using them without an external footing.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I agree with that but what i wanna know is how do they get the arrow to have a 300 or 250 spine with only 6-7 gr per inch? I believe the axis 500 or 600 is like 6 somehting per inch?


Yeah it seems insane! I thought the GT velocity's were light but these seem crazy. I know they have thinner walls but how would they get the spine up?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Carbon has different modulus counts. Each arrow company has it's own unique layup. It's finding the right balance. Only recently (last few years) have companies been leaving the norm and looking for lighter/stronger layups. Mainly because that is what the masses want. Which is a good thing.


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## bphillips (Jan 26, 2009)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> you should be able to run quite a bit, my grizz stiks are 250 spine and the fp itself is 200gr plus a 78gr insert and i'm sure they have weight behind the insert as well. How much you looking to put out front?


Would like it to be enough to get to at least 20% FOC which seems to be pretty tough with the longer arrows without getting really heavy.. I am trying to find a combo that isnt over 650gr


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

henro said:


> Sounds like beast mode! How was it getting the adapters glued in and getting the heads to spin true? That's the only thing that's kept me from glue ons with adapters after watchin my buddy have issues with them. Just seemed like a big pain. He even had Abowyer do it for him and they came out like **** and still didn't spin true.


Like 32Ballew, I use JB Weld to glue my screw-on adapters to my Grizzly BHs. When I started down the path to heavy/high FOC arrows I got a good tip from one of the techs at 3Rivers about getting good results with glue-on adapters. He told me his secret is to push the adapter into the BH ferule then twist it about about 1/8 to 1/4 turn as it bottoms out. This tends to enable the adapter and BH to find their snug, straight alignment position with pretty high reliability. I smear the JB Weld all around the adapter then do the push and twist thing, then right after that I put the assembled BH on an arrow shaft and then use an arrow spinner to check for straightness. Quite a few don't even need any adjustment and those that do generally need only a slight nudge to get them spinning true.

On another topic - light rear ends for high FOC arrows - with my setup I found Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes to work very well. They weigh a little less than Blazer vanes and from my shooting comparisons, they stabilize my arrows very well and don't catch cross winds and cause nearly as much drift as Blazers in the same high wind conditions. My setup isn't at the 650 mark but what I concentrated on was getting as high FOC as possible at my 500-gr weight. And as for GT Velocity XT shafts being sturdy or not, I got to experience how well they hold up when I just missed my small 3D deer target at 48 yards and sent the arrow into a 2x6 pressure treated fence rail at about a 45 degree angle, effectively causing the BH to have to go through 2-1/2" of hard wood. With the exception of a very small ding in the edge of the Grizzly BH, from contact with the fence wire it struck first, the BH sustained no damage - no bending or other damage - and the arrow shaft had no damage either. I checked the shaft for any damage - cracks or otherwise - and it had none. I'm still shooting it after this happening well over a year ago. Now, I believe one thing that helped is my using a FAST arrow shaft squaring tool to get the insert and nock ends of all my shafts as perfectly square as possible so any impact is evenly distributed around the end and down the sidewalls of the shaft. So far, it sure seems to be working out that way. BTW guys, great thread and its good to see more folks starting to realize the benefits of heavy/high FOC arrows. I read Dr Ashby's reports some time ago and couldn't quit reading until I'd gone through pretty much all his field test reports. I still believe it's some of the best info available.


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## PaBone (Feb 4, 2012)

I guess my question is why would someone need a 650 grain arrow for whitetail? I shoot a 380 to 400 grain arrow from a 58 pound bow and whitetails don't seem to even slow the arrow down going thru them.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I know for myself, I want the best chance at penetrating bone on a marginal hit. You get some side benefits as well, such as a quieter arrow, and a little more forgiveness. Just for fun you should try a 250gr field tip on an arrow and compare it to a 100gr. Then watch the difference in the amount of energy distributed to the target. 

Why do the tribal people use extremely heavy tips?

http://medias.photodeck.com/8f3b4ac8-1f67-11e0-ab54-d9a765cecf28/TA-EY-Hadza-032_large.jpg


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

bphillips said:


> Would like it to be enough to get to at least 20% FOC which seems to be pretty tough with the longer arrows without getting really heavy.. I am trying to find a combo that isnt over 650gr


What are you running on the back of your arrow? Vanes,feather,knocks? You need to do everthing possible to lighten up the back end of your arrow to up your FOC. What is ur setup now and what kind of FOC are you are getting currently?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

PaBone said:


> I guess my question is why would someone need a 650 grain arrow for whitetail? I shoot a 380 to 400 grain arrow from a 58 pound bow and whitetails don't seem to even slow the arrow down going thru them.


I see alot of people ask the same question and it seems like the people that are skeptical or think 650 gr is too much have never encountered a hard bone or marginal shot and had losey penetration. Basically the 650 gr mark according to Dr. Ed Ashby is the heavy bone threshold mark. Meaning it is enough weight to bust heavy bone but there are a ton of other factors that come into play such as a two blade single bevel broadhead,FOC of the arrow and about 10-11 other factors. Basically we are trying to build an arrow for when everything goes wrong.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Just an update to everyone who has been following this thread for awhile, my tommy hogg sight should be in tomm! I will prob be ordering my 250 grizz stiks tues! I think i'm gonna have everything before season starts!:59:


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## bphillips (Jan 26, 2009)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> What are you running on the back of your arrow? Vanes,feather,knocks? You need to do everthing possible to lighten up the back end of your arrow to up your FOC. What is ur setup now and what kind of FOC are you are getting currently?


Will only be a nock and 3 blazers on the back... 5-6gr nock

My current setup is only 12% and 474gr but this would be for a different bow


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

bphillips said:


> Will only be a nock and 3 blazers on the back... 5-6gr nock
> 
> My current setup is only 12% and 474gr but this would be for a different bow


so your building a different arrow for another bow is the one that you are wanting to get to 20%FOC and be less than 650 gr?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

i just looked on the alaska bowhunting supply chart and you could get a 28.5" 250 grizz stik with a 20%FOC or greater but would have to use a 175gr or 200gr broadhead. the 175gr field point arrow would be about 612gr with 20.18% FOC. The 200gr field point would make the arrow 637gr and 21.93% FOC approximately according to their charts


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Looks like I will be around 583 grains shooting 28.25 inch Gold Tip Kinetics with 250 grain VPA Penetrators up front, which runs an FOC of about 20.6%. A little lighter than I want, but those grizz sticks are expensive!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

ya but they are one of the few and i mean few companies that make tapered shafts


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

While tapered shafts are neat they are not necessary to achieve EFOC. So the amount of companies that make them don't really hold any significance. As long as your shaft diameter is not larger than the ferrule on your broadhead you will achieve the same results.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> While tapered shafts are neat they are not necessary to achieve EFOC. So the amount of companies that make them don't really hold any significance. As long as your shaft diameter is not larger than the ferrule on your broadhead you will achieve the same results.


I totally agree with you all i was saying is they are expensive is because they are limited to a few suppliers that make them. I'm sure if there were a lot more companies making them they might be a little be cheaper. More of a specialty item than a common one.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

PaBone said:


> I guess my question is why would someone need a 650 grain arrow for whitetail? I shoot a 380 to 400 grain arrow from a 58 pound bow and whitetails don't seem to even slow the arrow down going thru them.


Have you considered that some people hunt things that are bigger then deer?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Have you considered that some people hunt things that are bigger then deer?


i like the fact that if i want to hunt anything in NORTH AMERICA i can do it wth this arrow and not worry about penetration


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Realistically you can hunt everything in Africa with it too. On some animals more is better but you'd be fine either way. Shot placement is everything, period.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I agree that shot placement is everything but what if you don't get that perfect oppurtunity and the only chance you have is to shoot through bone? Wouldn't it be more comforting knowing that your arrow is capable of going through that bone and killing the animal than risking it and injuring the animal or having the animal of a lifetime slip away because you couldn't get the perfect shot. That is what these heavy arrows are for when everything doesn't go exactly as planned.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I was talking about a 650gr arrow since that is what this topic is about. Should be able to get through the bone on anything assuming you are using a super sharp single bevel broadhead.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> I was talking about a 650gr arrow since that is what this topic is about. Should be able to get through the bone on anything assuming you are using a super sharp single bevel broadhead.


Ok i got ya now i mistook your statement before my bad


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## PaBone (Feb 4, 2012)

I agree with the shot placement as being the most important, and I am assuming the bone that is mentioned is a high forward shoulder hit and there is nothing behind it to kill a deer. I can see a heavy arrow helping on a low forward hit breaking the front leg and getting into the heart, which is a devastating shot.


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## bphillips (Jan 26, 2009)

Any of the guys with the Grizzly Stik Momentum arrows weighed them individually to see how much they vary?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

PaBone said:


> I agree with the shot placement as being the most important, and I am assuming the bone that is mentioned is a high forward shoulder hit and there is nothing behind it to kill a deer. I can see a heavy arrow helping on a low forward hit breaking the front leg and getting into the heart, which is a devastating shot.


I also would like not having to worry about hard quartering shots, or frontal shots. Year before last, I had to pass what might have been my biggest buck ever because he only gave me a frontal shot. I wasn't about to take the chance on wounding him with the lighter set up I had then.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Got my Tommy Hogg on my bow today! sighted in at 20 yds but have to wait til i can shoot 60 to put the correct sight tape on! Should be ordering my arrows tuesday! Almost there guys!!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Got my Tommy Hogg on my bow today! sighted in at 20 yds but have to wait til i can shoot 60 to put the correct sight tape on! Should be ordering my arrows tuesday! Almost there guys!!


Sweet you should change your sig!:wink:


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

ya i never even thought about that i guess i was too excited to get the sight lol thanks man


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Got my Tommy Hogg on my bow today! sighted in at 20 yds but have to wait til i can shoot 60 to put the correct sight tape on! Should be ordering my arrows tuesday! Almost there guys!!


That's awesome man!!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok guys I need some help. Where my bow is only shooting 223fps it don't correspond with any of the sight tapes that came with my Tommy Hogg? Does anyone know how to mess with a program to print a customized sight tape?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok guys I need some help. Where my bow is only shooting 223fps it don't correspond with any of the sight tapes that came with my Tommy Hogg? Does anyone know how to mess with a program to print a customized sight tape?


Can you post a pic of your tapes? You might be able to use a solid white tape and mark 20 then 50 or 60 and be able to line them up


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

What are the specs on the arrow you went with(carbon length, insert weight, etc)? I know they sent you two different ones. What year is your Hoyt? 

It might be better just to make your own by shooting. Just back up slowly and use your best judgement as to where yardages marks should be. Then shoot a group, back up, shoot another group, back up, and again and again. Start at 10 yards then 15 then 20 then 25 and so on. That way you know it's exact.

My friend has a CBE slider sight with a Spot Hogg single pin housing on it. He used a white marker to add dots on the vertical portion for yardage markers. So if he has his sight on 20 yrds and isn't able to adjust his sight to take a shot, he has reference marks of pre-determined yardage.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

as far as specs i'm shooting a 2014 hoyt carbon spyder 27" draw at 70 lbs. Here is the part that is the problem i am shooting a 658gr arrow so my bow is only shooting 223fps and i'm pretty sure spott hogg didn't calculate for that low of a speed. I just cut a piece of the white sticker off and wrapped it on my sight and am going to sight it in manually. It's no big deal just will take a little be longer.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

It truly is the best solution. I have had all of the high end Spot Hogg (father, tommy, boss) sights and I always go back to the Hogg-it 7 pin.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I love the new sight it is awesome. The pin is a true .19 pin and isn't flared out at the end like a lot of other companies make them. I guess i was just looking for a quicker way to sight it in. Kind of got in panic mode i guess with season only 27 days out. I should be fine i'm not really concerned til the third week in october really. I should def have everything ready by then.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

What about printing a custom sight tape using OT2?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> What about printing a custom sight tape using OT2?


I have heard of people doing this, but I can't figure it out


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Is the OT2 a software program you have to download? If so how much is it and what is the website i might be interested?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

OT2 stands for On Target 2 and it is made by pinwheel. http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/ Basically a bow and arrow data base that is interactive. It's pretty neat. I have had it for a few years now.


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## Brendon_t (Aug 12, 2013)

constitution said:


> can I get heavy brass inserts for 2219s. (those are aluminum arrows for the guys under 30):wink:


They made arrows out of aluminum?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Wow hope ur kidding Brandon lol


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I have heard of people doing this, but I can't figure it out


It's very simple. Read the user guide.


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

henro said:


> It's very simple. Read the user guide.


I'll vouch for OT2 as well. The user guide has all the setup info needed to make it work for you. One word of advice - double-check all your measurements to ensure the program has accurate data to work with. You've likely heard the term garbage in, garbage out, meaning if you don't provide accurate data for the software to work with you can't expect it to produce good results. I took this to heart and I get VERY accurate results with OT2.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Does anyone know where i can buy a blank page of sticker material?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

http://www.instructables.com/id/Homemade-Stickers/


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm gonna order my arrows tomm! (6) 250 Grizz Stiks @ 658gr with a lil over 23% FOC. Hope they mail them to me fast only 25 days til our season opener.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Where is everyone else at with their arrow builds its been quiet on here for a couple days?


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Where is everyone else at with their arrow builds its been quiet on here for a couple days?


Well I just ordered 9 Strickland helix 150 grain broadheads. They should be here Thursday. After I get those all tuned up I'll have to be done changing my arrows until after season. But I sure can't wait to see how my efoc velocity's with the helix broadhead do on elk and deer. 

Be sure to post up any pics of game you get with your sweet new setup!


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

> What kind of speed are you guys getting that are over 550 gr? I dont care as much about speed and I dont shoot an insanely fast bow but am curious.


I'm getting 280's out of a 620gr arrow...


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

sak102174 said:


> I'm getting 280's out of a 620gr arrow...


Holy cow! What draw weight and length?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

sak102174 said:


> I'm getting 280's out of a 620gr arrow...


Holy crap!:mg: That is crazy


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Look at his sig he has a 31.5" draw at 80lbs that is a nice setup! Wish i had longer arms lol


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Ryjax said:


> Holy cow! What draw weight and length?


Says it in his signature. 



> 2013 Bowtech Insanity CPXL
> 31.5 DL 80#
> 620gr GT Big Game Hunters 21% FOC
> 100gr Anarchy single bevel
> 280fps 110KE


I was actually curious how much his inserts weigh to get 21% FOC since he only uses 100gr tips.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Kaizoku said:


> Says it in his signature.
> 
> 
> 
> I was actually curious how much his inserts weigh to get 21% FOC since he only uses 100gr tips.


Me too that's insane FOC with only 100 grain tips


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## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

Lightweight nocks....feathers, and 100 grain insert would get you real close to that FOC if the arrow is a light GPI arrow to start with. I am at 15.5% with a 50 grain insert on a light weight GPI shaft. With another 50 grains up front I would be around 20 percent FOC and I am not using feathers.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Just ordered my arrows and actually got to talk to Garret Schlief (President of ABS) He is a very good guy to talk to. With any luck my arrows will be here Satuday but i'm guessing more towards monday. Probably gonna order a couple 200gr Monarchs from them next week and i will be ready for the season!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Guys that have been following this thread or anyone shooting a single bevel broadhead this year ,i would love to have your devestaion pics posted on here! I don't get to hunt for another 24 days but i know some people already are and some are starting this weekend. Post em up guys!


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

> I was actually curious how much his inserts weigh to get 21% FOC since he only uses 100gr tips.


I use the gold tip brass inserts with two additional 50gr weights plus any 100 gr BH i want to shoot that day. Then if I want to shoot a heavier single bevel BH i can just adjust the the FOC by removing weight up front. It also helps that I have gorilla arms and shoot a fill length arrow...


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

sak102174 said:


> I use the gold tip brass inserts with two additional 50gr weights plus any 100 gr BH i want to shoot that day. Then if I want to shoot a heavier single bevel BH i can just adjust the the FOC by removing weight up front. It also helps that I have gorilla arms and shoot a fill length arrow...


What is the spine on those arrows!? Must be like .200 or .150? What's the grains per inch? Awesome setup for sure! With my short draw length I'd have to shoot like a 105 pound draw weight to get the same energy as you lol.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

sak102174 said:


> I use the gold tip brass inserts with two additional 50gr weights plus any 100 gr BH i want to shoot that day. Then if I want to shoot a heavier single bevel BH i can just adjust the the FOC by removing weight up front. It also helps that I have gorilla arms and shoot a fill length arrow...


That's an awesome set up man. I really like how you can pull weights to add heavier heads. That is genius


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

> What is the spine on those arrows!? Must be like .200 or .150? What's the grains per inch? Awesome setup for sure! With my short draw length I'd have to shoot like a 105 pound draw weight to get the same energy as you lol.


Yeah I'm lucky to have such a long DL when it comes to potential energy, not so lucky when it comes to finding a bow to shoot. So far my PSE Vendetta and Bowetech Insanity have served me well...

According to Gold tips site the Big Game 100's are spined at .250 and weigh 10.6 gpi and are good for DW between 75 and 110#...


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Man, the more I read this thread, the more I want to go all out and try to reach 650 grains and a 30%+ foc next year


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

sak102174 said:


> Yeah I'm lucky to have such a long DL when it comes to potential energy, not so lucky when it comes to finding a bow to shoot. So far my PSE Vendetta and Bowetech Insanity have served me well...
> 
> According to Gold tips site the Big Game 100's are spined at .250 and weigh 10.6 gpi and are good for DW between 75 and 110#...


Yeah I guess I didn't think about finding a bow to fit! Lol I used to have that problem too, only it's on the other end of the draw lengths


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Man, the more I read this thread, the more I want to go all out and try to reach 650 grains and a 30%+ foc next year


I hope your enthusiasm stays there man and hope to see you shooting a 650gr arrow with at least 19% FOC by next season.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Only thing i warn you as you are in the same boat as i am with draw length be prepared to give up speed. I'm not talking ten to fifteen feet per second i'm talkin probably 35 plus feet per second but your momentum is gonna go out the roof!


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

OK, so last year to get that 620 arrow weight I must have had a 50gr and a 20gr weight ont-top of the 100gr brass insert. I was just out in the garage messing around seeing how close to 650 i can get, if I take the 20gr off and add a RedFeather Razor Hawk at 150gr I just sneak in on the 650 mark 










Looks like this arrow gets first call this year!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Nice! I wanna see some aftermath of those puppies! please post when you bust something with them!


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

> Nice! I wanna see some aftermath of those puppies! please post when you bust something with them!


Will do!


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

Here is a little nugget of knowledge for ya'll, if you end up shooting an insert system where you can add additional weights make sure you put a little bow string wax or blue thread tight on the threads and tighten them down good. I had a weight work loose last year to the point where it was free floating inside the arrow. When I released the arrow the weight shot out the back of the arrow and blew the nock off, sounded like a fire cracker went off in my face. Arrow ended up in the target but it got may attention and took me a couple of minutes to figure out what the heck happened...

I learned the hard way so you don't have to :cheers:


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Only thing i warn you as you are in the same boat as i am with draw length be prepared to give up speed. I'm not talking ten to fifteen feet per second i'm talkin probably 35 plus feet per second but your momentum is gonna go out the roof!


Thanks for the heads up! I think I will be okay with the speed though because I'll go back up to 70 lbs or more once my shoulder heals completely! Like I said in one of the early pages I don't care that much about speed I just want to be able to practice long ranges. If I can't get 80 with my seven pin then I think that would be fine I'll just get a single pin and use that to practice long range.

Have you gotten to practice out at long range yet?


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

sak102174 said:


> OK, so last year to get that 620 arrow weight I must have had a 50gr and a 20gr weight ont-top of the 100gr brass insert. I was just out in the garage messing around seeing how close to 650 i can get, if I take the 20gr off and add a RedFeather Razor Hawk at 150gr I just sneak in on the 650 mark
> 
> View attachment 2034042
> 
> ...


Sweet! What's the cutting diameter if those bad boys?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Thanks for the heads up! I think I will be okay with the speed though because I'll go back up to 70 lbs or more once my shoulder heals completely! Like I said in one of the early pages I don't care that much about speed I just want to be able to practice long ranges. If I can't get 80 with my seven pin then I think that would be fine I'll just get a single pin and use that to practice long range.
> 
> Have you gotten to practice out at long range yet?


I got a new sight for that whole reason. I am shoting 70lbs @27" draw 658gr arrow at 223fps and i was out at sixty. I think the max i will be getting with the tommy hogg is around 70-75yd. For around here that is way farther than i will ever shoot.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

Well, I'm shooting trad tackle, so heavier is just sort of default there. But, I did work to up my FOC and after adding 100 grain brass inserts I'm now at 710 grains with a bit of 20% FOC. Shooting in the 180's with a 70 lb recurve. Can't wait to see what it does, it sure thumps my targets pretty good...


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

patrick2cents said:


> Well, I'm shooting trad tackle, so heavier is just sort of default there. But, I did work to up my FOC and after adding 100 grain brass inserts I'm now at 710 grains with a bit of 20% FOC. Shooting in the 180's with a 70 lb recurve. Can't wait to see what it does, it sure thumps my targets pretty good...


Nice my buddy that works at the local shop is shooting a long bow with 650 grain arrow around 23%FOC and he loves it. Please post any devistation pics that your arrow does on this thread please!


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## whyatt (May 5, 2012)

really nice read. this is good stuff for buffalo and the like. 

that being said, im very happy hunting white tail and black bear with my 13% set up. its a blessing, this privilege we have. enjoy your hunts guys.. seasons on top of us.. yee-haw.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

whyatt said:


> really nice read. this is good stuff for buffalo and the like.
> 
> that being said, im very happy hunting white tail and black bear with my 13% set up. its a blessing, this privilege we have. enjoy your hunts guys.. seasons on top of us.. yee-haw.


Over in the trad forum there was a guy asking about long bow draw weights for deer. His current setup was only developing aobut 23ft-lbs KE... So yeah, not everyone is shooting the equivalent of a Barrett .50cal at squirrels. (that might be a tiny bit of an exaggeration)...

So, depending on your tool of choice, some of this can be plenty relevant for deer.

I am not a hunter (yet) but stumbled on this by chance. I was kind of forced into the high foc camp by default. I have a long draw and shoot a 44lb @ 31" longbow. It's tough finding arrows 32"+ long arrows at anything less than a 400spine. There are a few heavy aluminums, which is fine, or I can get an over stiff carbon and stuff a heavy point on it. The net result is an arrow just about the same weight as the weaker spined aluminum, but with a high foc.

And just for reference, my bow has a max potential energy (with my current brace height and draw length) of about 40ft-lbs. Dunno how efficient my bow is, but at 80%, that would be about 32ft-lbs. At 90%, 36ft lbs to the arrow...

BM


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

whyatt said:


> really nice read. this is good stuff for buffalo and the like.
> 
> that being said, im very happy hunting white tail and black bear with my 13% set up. its a blessing, this privilege we have. enjoy your hunts guys.. seasons on top of us.. yee-haw.


23 more days here. How close is your season?


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## whyatt (May 5, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> 23 more days here. How close is your season?


8 days... rtg


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well good luck man hope you kill a good one!


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## whyatt (May 5, 2012)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Well good luck man hope you kill a good one!


you too. love those beautiful wv mountains. have a blast.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Nice my buddy that works at the local shop is shooting a long bow with 650 grain arrow around 23%FOC and he loves it. Please post any devistation pics that your arrow does on this thread please!


Thanks, will do... I've got 9 days!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Good luck man and we will be waiting for those pics!


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## sak102174 (Aug 3, 2011)

> Sweet! What's the cutting diameter if those bad boys?


1.25"


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

So I got my helix 150 grain heads yesterday and they sure are some mean broadheads! That said, they didn't come that sharp and you can still see the bur on the beveled side. So obviously I think I need to remove the bur but any other tips? Also, I think I read that single bevels don't feel as sharp. Is this true?

I haven't gotten any time to mess with them yet.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Bowtechforlife said:


> So I got my helix 150 grain heads yesterday and they sure are some mean broadheads! That said, they didn't come that sharp and you can still see the bur on the beveled side. So obviously I think I need to remove the bur but any other tips? Also, I think I read that single bevels don't feel as sharp. Is this true?
> 
> I haven't gotten any time to mess with them yet.


I've never seen or heard of one having burs... That's weird. Single bevels do not feel like double bevels but they are still really sharp. Nothing a leather strop can't take care of


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I use a KME to sharpen my single and double bevel two blades. There are some good youtube videos and some good articles over at tradgang (I know I know, but alot of guys use single bevels over there).

A single bevel is super easy to sharpen. You sharpen on the bevel side until you raise a burr, then lightly remove the burr. You don't want to mess with the flat side except to make sure that it is flat.

If you have any questions call Ron at KME and he will walk you through it. His customer service is incredible. I bought his jig, called him, and he walked me through the entire process. If I were to do it again, I would buy his knife sharpener, as you can do both knives and broadheads with it...

Here is a guy who did it with sandpaper...I have always wanted to try this method, but need some glass.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000115


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Well I just got done sharpening three if them. They are now super scary sharp and popping hairs with ease. Everyone is right that the single bevels are really easy to sharpen! I just used a diamond hone and then strop and each head took me about ten minutes. They were popping hairs easily after the diamond hone but I decided to strop them anyway haha


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Well I just got done sharpening three if them. They are now super scary sharp and popping hairs with ease. Everyone is right that the single bevels are really easy to sharpen! I just used a diamond hone and then strop and each head took me about ten minutes. They were popping hairs easily after the diamond hone but I decided to strop them anyway haha


Man I hear great things about those heads!


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

A tip for keeping them (any BH) sharp is to coat the cutting edge with chapstick to keep it from oxidizing (and dulling).


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

patrick2cents said:


> A tip for keeping them (any BH) sharp is to coat the cutting edge with chapstick to keep it from oxidizing (and dulling).


Thanks for the tip Patrick! I will definitely do that!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Ryjax said:


> Man I hear great things about those heads!


They are pretty awesome! I can't get over how thick the blade is and how easy to sharpen they are! I haven't shot them yet but they spin perfect so I'm sure they will tune fine!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> They are pretty awesome! I can't get over how thick the blade is and how easy to sharpen they are! I haven't shot them yet but they spin perfect so I'm sure they will tune fine!


Depending on what kind of target you are shooting at you might want to push them on through if the head doesn't make it out the back side of the target. The reason i say this is due to the rotation that those heads get upon entry. If you try to pull them back out they cut again and just shred your target up very quickly. Once you push them out the back side just unscrew them and then pull you arrow. This will extend the life of your target with that head!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Depending on what kind of target you are shooting at you might want to push them on through if the head doesn't make it out the back side of the target. The reason i say this is due to the rotation that those heads get upon entry. If you try to pull them back out they cut again and just shred your target up very quickly. Once you push them out the back side just unscrew them and then pull you arrow. This will extend the life of your target with that head!


Thanks man I've heard it's a good idea to do that! Seems like it will devastate game!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

ya i can't wait to shoot a deer this year with the heads i plan on going with. I can't wait to see some of the single bevel devestation pics that get posted on here.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Got my arrows in the mail yesterday and sighted in out to 65yds. That is where i'm gonna stop as the sight housing would be in the way if i go any lower. Have to shoot em with the Monarch and make sure they are still flying good.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Like I said previously, you can always take a paint pen and put a mark on the vertical portion of the pin as another yardage mark if you so choose. This comes in handy if you are unable to adjust your sight without the extra movement to get busted. You can also use the top of the level bubble as a yardage mark as well.

For example, your pin is set at 20, then you have a 30 mark on the vertical, and the top of the level bubble. So you have three aiming points without moving your sight.

How many inches between your 20 yard and 65 yard marks on your sight tape?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

It is right at 2" from my 20 mark to 65 yd mark but i also was looking at where it is bolted up at and i could move it farther down and get move yardage that way also. But ya that is a good idea for a quick reference point and will probably do that. Just got done shooting my broadhead and it is hitting about 3.5" lower than my field points so i have to broadhead tune my bow and will probably end up having to do a new sight tape.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I guess i got ahead of myself a little bit and now i'm gonna have to go throught it all again.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Keep after it. You'll get there.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragement man. I think i got it tuned up but i got to the point where i couldn't hold the pin steady enough to tell how well the bh and fp were hitting or not hitting together so i stopped for the day. I will work on it again tomm.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

No problem man. It is a process getting EFOC.

This is worth the watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rP8Xantd3Q


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I've watched that video before it is really good stuff.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

well i got my bow broadhead tuned and sighted back in to 45yds. I will still have to sight it in at 50,55,60,and 65 hopefully have that all done by the weekend.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Got my bow broadhead tuned and sited in out to 50 over the weekend. It turned out to be harder then I expected but I got it finally! I'm ready for elk! I leave tomorrow!


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Got my bow broadhead tuned and sited in out to 50 over the weekend. It turned out to be harder then I expected but I got it finally! I'm ready for elk! I leave tomorrow!


Good luck! I hope to see some pics soon


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Got my bow broadhead tuned and sited in out to 50 over the weekend. It turned out to be harder then I expected but I got it finally! I'm ready for elk! I leave tomorrow!


Good luck mand hope you get a big one. Post some pics on here if you have any luck


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I finished sighting in my bow this morning and am sighted in out to 65yds again. I also ordered a 3 pack of the 200gr Monarch's from ABS and they should be here thursday if not friday.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I finished sighting in my bow this morning and am sighted in out to 65yds again. I also ordered a 3 pack of the 200gr Monarch's from ABS and they should be here thursday if not friday.


I can't wait to see what those heads do


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Just ordered all the components for a heavier build than I'm currently shooting. You can see in my sig I'm shootin a 620gr Victory VAP 250 now at 262fps with 22.75% FOC. The new build will be the Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger(Gold .225 spine 8.75gpi).

29" carbon to carbon shaft(will go shorter if I can to stiffen spine)
260gr head weight(Abowyer 260gr Stainless Brown Bear Screw-In)
100gr brass insert
2314 XX75 for external footing
Easton G Nock Uni Bushings
Nockturnal G Nocks
Flex Fletch Extreme FFP-360s or Silent Knight 200s

Based on OT2 this should shoot bottom 250's fps from my MR5 at 29"/71lbs with 26-27% FOC and weigh around 670gr.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> Just ordered all the components for a heavier build than I'm currently shooting. You can see in my sig I'm shootin a 620gr Victory VAP 250 now at 262fps with 22.75% FOC. The new build will be the Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger(Gold .225 spine).
> 
> 29" carbon to carbon shaft(will go shorter if I can to stiffen spine)
> 260gr head weight(Abowyer 260gr Stainless Brown Bear Screw-In)
> ...


Wow...that should hit like a truck! 
Let us know what you think of those nitro stingers.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> Wow...that should hit like a truck!
> Let us know what you think of those nitro stingers.


I won't be shooting them for awhile as I'm all set for hunting season that opens here on Saturday. The VAP's will get the job done for sure. I'll build up the Nitro Stingers when I have time though and get to shooting them once I'm tagged out.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

henro said:


> I won't be shooting them for awhile as I'm all set for hunting season that opens here on Saturday. The VAP's will get the job done for sure. I'll build up the Nitro Stingers when I have time though and get to shooting them once I'm tagged out.


I'm really concerned with dealing with Arrow Dynamics though... I was able to get someone on the phone with them a month ago about a question I had but have tried numerous times(all different times of day and week) since then and haven't had anyone pick up the phone once. Their voicemail is full so you can't leave a message either. I just sent in a contact question through their website and I got a kickback email saying it didn't go through. The website took my order just fine today though...


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I have had the same problem with correspondence through email. He didn't seem that interested in my questions and never answered all of them. He only answered some of them. I think I mentioned earlier in this thread about customer service not being his strong suit. 

I emailed him through my email versus the automated on the website. [email protected]


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> I have had the same problem with correspondence through email. He didn't seem that interested in my questions and never answered all of them. He only answered some of them. I think I mentioned earlier in this thread about customer service not being his strong suit.
> 
> I emailed him through my email versus the automated on the website. [email protected]


Great minds think alike... I had just tried the same thing and didn't get a kickback yet. Hopefullly he responds.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Henro are those tapered shafts?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Never mind i just looked em up


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

henro said:


> Great minds think alike... I had just tried the same thing and didn't get a kickback yet. Hopefullly he responds.


Keep us posted.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> Keep us posted.


I will. I wanted to ask him which Easton g nock uni bushing size fits the shafts I'm buying. I ordered the uni bushing from 3Rivers but they only state they're for all AD shafts, not the specific bushing size. It'd make finding them elsewhere much easier.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I got through to somebody today! lol I had asked about the uni bushing size compatibility and they stated Easton 328s are pretty close and may need more glue but that the Arrow Dynamics specific uni bushings sold by 3Rivers will fit all models and are the best bet. Also regarding turn around time he said it would be roughly a week for my shafts as he's starting a run of them now.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Got my broad heads in the mail today! I am ready to shoot something, now i just gotta wait for season to come in!


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

How do they shoot?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I had ordered a test broadhead back about two weeks ago and when i got my shafts earlier this week i had to broadhead tune just slightly by moving my rest up 1/16". FP and BH hitting same POI out to 50 yds. I'm not sure about 55-65 haven't had the chance to shoot that distance with the head yet


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

checked my cam yesterday and the buck i've been watching all spring and summer has lost his velvet. He is only 2 1/2yrs old but where i hunt i am surrounded by people who shoot anything plus he only has one brow tine which is another reason i think i'm gonna bust his butt given the chance. What you guys think? Should i put a 660gr 23% FOC arrow in him?


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Well I'm back from colorado after an outstanding hunt! My dad and I both got bulls in three days of hunting! His was a pretty nice 5x5 and mine was a raghorn 4x4 but my first elk ever!

I called him in from a LONG ways away after I spooked his cow and he was looking for her! He came all the way in to just under 20 yards. In the excitement I didn't realize he was quartering to me very hard and probably made what some would say a bad shot because of the angle. But the 491 grain 24% foc gold tip velocity tipped with a 150 grain helix did not disapoint! The arrow entered right behind the front shoulder, went lengthwise through the elk, broke the offside hip, and exited out of the ham! The only thing holding the arrow in was the fletching on the skin! The bull went about 70 yards and fell over!!!

Man that was exciting and it was so nice to see my arrow build performed flawlessly! After this, I am most definitely a believer in the efoc and single bevel 2 blade (I was a believer already though) because of that awesome penetration out of a 60 lb 26.5 inch draw bow!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Very nice! Congrats!


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

No pics?! You should be ashamed of yourself.


Lol. Congrats to You and your Dad!


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

That's awesome!!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Haha sorry here you go. No pics of entrance or exit but I though they were pretty good! Blood trail was great too! I didn't need it though because I watched him fall!

The helix broadhead and my arrow are still in perfect condition in fact the head will still shave hair!


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## Mcdowelr (Nov 29, 2009)

I took the 650 challenge. The Grizzly Stick arrows are well made, fly well and are an excellent product. I plan on getting a dozen for a Africa trip I plan for next June. You will lose speed but your arrow will hit like a school bus with a remarkable penetration in game. Go to you tube and do a search for Dr. Ashby and there are several of his lectures on line where you can learn about his research. I had previously bought a dozen maxima reds and experimenting with brass inserts that I got from 3 Rivers Archery. If you were looking to add FOC to your current setup you could start there. I called them and there tech support guy helped me pick out the right insert. Grizzly Stick also sells heavier broadheads that you could improve your FOC. They have a spot on their website were you can buy one broadhead if you want to experiment as well as a field point test pack with different weight field tips. I am using the German Kinetics Silver flame but I am experimenting with a Massai single bevel now. They have videos of ladies blowing through shoulder bones with 45 and 50lb draw weights and a lot of other interesting things on there if you are on a FOC quest. I am trying to find that happy balance now.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Mcdowelr said:


> I took the 650 challenge. The Grizzly Stick arrows are well made, fly well and are an excellent product. I plan on getting a dozen for a Africa trip I plan for next June. You will lose speed but your arrow will hit like a school bus with a remarkable penetration in game. Go to you tube and do a search for Dr. Ashby and there are several of his lectures on line where you can learn about his research. I had previously bought a dozen maxima reds and experimenting with brass inserts that I got from 3 Rivers Archery. If you were looking to add FOC to your current setup you could start there. I called them and there tech support guy helped me pick out the right insert. Grizzly Stick also sells heavier broadheads that you could improve your FOC. They have a spot on their website were you can buy one broadhead if you want to experiment as well as a field point test pack with different weight field tips. I am using the German Kinetics Silver flame but I am experimenting with a Massai single bevel now. They have videos of ladies blowing through shoulder bones with 45 and 50lb draw weights and a lot of other interesting things on there if you are on a FOC quest. I am trying to find that happy balance now.


Awesome to hear you are shooting the grizz stiks. I am shooting the 250's at 660gr with a 200gr monarch single bevel broadhead just waiting on deer season to roll around. One more week!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Haha sorry here you go. No pics of entrance or exit but I though they were pretty good! Blood trail was great too! I didn't need it though because I watched him fall!
> 
> The helix broadhead and my arrow are still in perfect condition in fact the head will still shave hair!


Congrats man! My buddy at the local shop got the 200gr helix heads and let me shoot one on my grizz stiks. Those heads are deadly quiet and fly like a dart. I actually emailed tim strickland because i was curious why they put a 40 degree bevel instead of a 25. He responded that because of the design the 40 is nessecary to keep enought material so the head won't bend and it makes the head rotate quicker resulting in more stable flight. I have my gf shooting them on her rig and had the deep six version on my injexions til i switched to the grizz stiks. The only thing i didn't like about the way they fit on the grizz stiks was that the head was slighty narrower than the grizz stik shaft diameter. Awesome kill man congrats on your first elk. Just out of curiousity what kind of setup was you dad running and what were his results?


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Well I'm back from colorado after an outstanding hunt! My dad and I both got bulls in three days of hunting! His was a pretty nice 5x5 and mine was a raghorn 4x4 but my first elk ever!
> 
> I called him in from a LONG ways away after I spooked his cow and he was looking for her! He came all the way in to just under 20 yards. In the excitement I didn't realize he was quartering to me very hard and probably made what some would say a bad shot because of the angle. But the 491 grain 24% foc gold tip velocity tipped with a 150 grain helix did not disapoint! The arrow entered right behind the front shoulder, went lengthwise through the elk, broke the offside hip, and exited out of the ham! The only thing holding the arrow in was the fletching on the skin! The bull went about 70 yards and fell over!!!
> 
> Man that was exciting and it was so nice to see my arrow build performed flawlessly! After this, I am most definitely a believer in the efoc and single bevel 2 blade (I was a believer already though) because of that awesome penetration out of a 60 lb 26.5 inch draw bow!


Nice man, email your short story to stricklands archery they'd love to hear how it worked for ya


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Congrats man! My buddy at the local shop got the 200gr helix heads and let me shoot one on my grizz stiks. Those heads are deadly quiet and fly like a dart. I actually emailed tim strickland because i was curious why they put a 40 degree bevel instead of a 25. He responded that because of the design the 40 is nessecary to keep enought material so the head won't bend and it makes the head rotate quicker resulting in more stable flight. I have my gf shooting them on her rig and had the deep six version on my injexions til i switched to the grizz stiks. The only thing i didn't like about the way they fit on the grizz stiks was that the head was slighty narrower than the grizz stik shaft diameter. Awesome kill man congrats on your first elk. Just out of curiousity what kind of setup was you dad running and what were his results?


Thanks my dad's setup was a bowtech rpm 360 at like 74 lbs 29 inch draw. He was shooting a camo gold tip hunter in the 300 spine. He added 20 grains behing the insert and used 100 grain thunderheads. Total weight was like 460 grains and a 12% foc. He hit his bull maybe 8 inches behind the shoulder on a tiny bit of a quartering to shot. He got the back of both lungs though we think (we used the gutless method to quarter him so we aren't 100% sure he got both lungs but we think so) and the bull ran basically strait downhill 100 yards and died! Shot was 24.5 yards.

His arrow passed through the elk and stuck in a log about ten yards behind where the bull was standing. I kind of expected that from his setup though.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

sethro02 said:


> Nice man, email your short story to stricklands archery they'd love to hear how it worked for ya


Thanks will do! I am wondering if I had gotten a batch that didn't get sharpened all the way because like I said when I got them I was very disappointed with the sharpness and I keep hearing people say they were shaving sharp right out of the package. Once I got them sharp they obviously worked great though!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Congrats man! My buddy at the local shop got the 200gr helix heads and let me shoot one on my grizz stiks. Those heads are deadly quiet and fly like a dart. I actually emailed tim strickland because i was curious why they put a 40 degree bevel instead of a 25. He responded that because of the design the 40 is nessecary to keep enought material so the head won't bend and it makes the head rotate quicker resulting in more stable flight. I have my gf shooting them on her rig and had the deep six version on my injexions til i switched to the grizz stiks. The only thing i didn't like about the way they fit on the grizz stiks was that the head was slighty narrower than the grizz stik shaft diameter. Awesome kill man congrats on your first elk. Just out of curiousity what kind of setup was you dad running and what were his results?


The angle of the bevel isn't going to alter flight rotation.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 Can you also post a pic with the broadhead on the grizz stik shaft to show how much smaller the ferule is than the shaft itself? This has me worried about the Arrow Dynamic Nitro Stingers I bought. Ashby stated that if your broadhead ferrule diameter is smaller than your shaft diameter it would decrease penetration by an average of 30% compared to one of equal diameter and 40% difference by one that is at least 5% smaller in diameter compared to the shaft. I need to find out what the ferrule diameter is on the Abowyer Brown Bear's I'm ordering are now...

This is the excerpt from his article on penetration enhancing factors on that: 
"Shaft-diameter to ferrule-diameter ratio is number five. It shows an average 10% penetration-gain when the shaft is at least 5% smaller than the broadhead's ferrule diameter; compared to a case where shaft and broadhead ferrule have equal diameter. When shaft diameter exceeds that of the broadhead's ferrule, penetration is decreased by an average of 30%; compared to a case where shaft and broadhead ferrule have equal diameter. That means a 40% difference in tissue penetration when a shaft having a favorable ratio is compared to one with an unfavorable ratio. 

Shaft-diameter to ferrule-diameter ratio is applicable to all arrows. Regardless of the other design factors present or absent, you should avoid use of arrows having a shaft diameter greater than that of your broadhead's ferrule. Ideally, your arrow's shaft should be at least 5% smaller in diameter than your broadhead's ferrule."


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Well that was easy... lol I called Abowyer and spoke to Cody who was able to get me the info I needed. The AD Nitro Stinger shafts I'll be shooting are 21/64" or .328125" outside diameter at weight tip end and he told me the Brown Bear broadhead ferrules have the same inside diameter and a .378" outside diameter which is a 15.2% difference. I'll be running about an inch of external footing with a 2314 aluminum that is 23/64" or .359375" outside diameter so it's still smaller than the ferrule and the shaft will be smaller still and then the shaft tapers down to 9/32" or .28125" at the nock end so I should have no issues. 

Gotta love the great customer service from Abowyer.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hey Henro i gave that head back to him but i will see if he will let me borrow it again or get a pic of it. It isn't a significant difference just slight but i would like to look it up also to see what kind of difference there is in the diameter of the two. The Monarch's i do have for my grizz stiks are slightly larger on the ferrule than the shaft on the grizz stiks.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I was broadhead tuning last night and I need a better target. My 580gr gold tips with 250gr VPAs out front are blowing through the target and getting lodged in my barn. I shoot an old switchback at about 65lbs. Guys who haven't tried heavy broadheads and high FOC don't realize what they are missing. They are also so quiet.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jjwaldman21 said:


> I was broadhead tuning last night and I need a better target. My 580gr gold tips with 250gr VPAs out front are blowing through the target and getting lodged in my barn. I shoot an old switchback at about 65lbs. Guys who haven't tried heavy broadheads and high FOC don't realize what they are missing. They are also so quiet.


Get a Rhinehart 18-1 or Rhinoblock, best broadhead targets out there and only ones that'll stop my setup.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I have the Big Green Target (for field points). I blow right through it. I might need to get on that RH broadhead target.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

http://www.archerytargets.com/cubeconstruction2.aspx
I picked up this one really cheap at the local shop because someone returned it that didn't know how to use it. With broadheads the removal is easy and with field points you need to use some lube such as arrow snot or scorpion venom to assist the arrow in the removal. This website also make an actual target for single bevel broadheads. Look on youtube "Ashby broadhead target"


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> http://www.archerytargets.com/cubeconstruction2.aspx
> I picked up this one really cheap at the local shop because someone returned it that didn't know how to use it. With broadheads the removal is easy and with field points you need to use some lube such as arrow snot or scorpion venom to assist the arrow in the removal. This website also make an actual target for single bevel broadheads. Look on youtube "Ashby broadhead target"


I've never actually checked those out. They seem really tough. I found a youtube video comparing them to the 18-1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3aVQMvzY4. I do like how the Rhinehart's are smaller and easier to transport, for me that's a plus but for others who don't move it won't care.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Wow hadn't seen that vid before henro that is pretty impressive results and i have to say so far i haven't made it throught the one i have and i've been shooting it with single bevel broadheads for about the past month. These targets seems pretty solid IMHO


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

One more day! Season comes in Saturday Sept. 27th here!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I just bought a 3-pin Boss Hogg from the classifieds to try with the new arrow setup. I have a 7-pin Hunter now but rarely shoot past 40 in the woods. I'm gonna convert it to a 4-pin and use the bottom pin for the floater. Been thinkin about trying this as I'll be able to dial in more precisely at longer ranges compared to the larger pin spread with the 7-pin.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> One more day! Season comes in Saturday Sept. 27th here!


Good luck! I have been checking this thread for other kills! I shot a chipmunk while practicing the other day. It was amazing the arrow didn't even slow down lol.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

I have been thinking about putting my seven pin housing on an ambush mount. Does anyone know if a rush sight housing fits in an ambush mount? These are both made by Montana Black Gold


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Good luck! I have been checking this thread for other kills! I shot a chipmunk while practicing the other day. It was amazing the arrow didn't even slow down lol.


Nice you really got that thing dialed in. I'm having a few issues and have to hit the shop up in the morning to get some kinks worked out. My broadheads are hitting dead left of my field points regardless of where i move my rest.


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## westernwarrior3 (Aug 20, 2014)

Working my way through this thread, so hopefully I'm not replying to anything that someone mentioned already! 



bowhunter.bk85 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qa4ZdIZsJk check this out! Ladies only shooting 166fps with a 680gr arrow.


Cool video, but do remember that those bones inside of a live animal will not be the same as they are hanging in front of a broadhead target after who knows how long out of the animal and under what conditions. I don't know what the exact difference is between that video and shooting a bone that is suspended by stretchy muscles and tendons and cushioned by fluids inside of a live animal is... but I bet it IS a difference.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Nice you really got that thing dialed in. I'm having a few issues and have to hit the shop up in the morning to get some kinks worked out. My broadheads are hitting dead left of my field points regardless of where i move my rest.


Hmmmm that's odd I hope you get it figured out. I'm sure you will. I have noticed my efoc to be very easy to tune and they shoot like darts. I have started to regularly practice with bare shafts mixed in randomly to my fletched about half and half. It's amazing I can't tell the difference in flight and I have gone out to 40 so far. I think next year I'm gonna show up at a 3d shoot with bare shafts lol!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Nice you really got that thing dialed in. I'm having a few issues and have to hit the shop up in the morning to get some kinks worked out. My broadheads are hitting dead left of my field points regardless of where i move my rest.


Oh and one more thing... How close is your rest to center shot?? My arrows seem to not like being off of center shot at all!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I'm still waiting for my Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger shafts I ordered on the 10th. I spoke to them on Monday and they said they would email me that night that they had the shafts sorted and when they'd send out. I haven't gotten any email since and haven't gotten then on the phone since. I wish they'd answer the phone...


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> I'm still waiting for my Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger shafts I ordered on the 10th. I spoke to them on Monday and they said they would email me that night that they had the shafts sorted and when they'd send out. I haven't gotten any email since and haven't gotten then on the phone since. I wish they'd answer the phone...


Man....I hate those situations... Surely they will let you know something soon


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

henro said:


> I'm still waiting for my Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stinger shafts I ordered on the 10th. I spoke to them on Monday and they said they would email me that night that they had the shafts sorted and when they'd send out. I haven't gotten any email since and haven't gotten then on the phone since. I wish they'd answer the phone...


I hope you get them soon. I am excited to hear about them they look very promising!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

They're just horrible with CS... I won't mind as long as they perform like I think they will. I keep thinking about just ordering 2 dozen at once so I don't have to wait forever on another order but I haven't even seen their shafts in person to know I'll be getting what I want. They did say on Monday they would throw in a .200 spine shaft for me to test with in case I wanted to go heavier for free.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Oh and one more thing... How close is your rest to center shot?? My arrows seem to not like being off of center shot at all!


I think it's pretty close but i'm goin to the shop in the morning to work out the kinks. Hate to mess with it that close to season but if i don't have it shooting right it will be in my head and be a confidence killer. I don't think it is anything major might just need a yoke turned or something simple. I am looking at going with the limb driver pro v rest next year though. I have the trophy taker smack down pro on there now and it just doesn't seem to like my spyder no matter what arrow i am shooting. I have also seen several threads on here that post that same problem with the rest.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Left impact is indicative of weak spine. Your bow could tune perfectly fine with a field tip but toss on a broadhead and it can go right out the window quickly. That's one of the potential problems of having a company pre-make your EFOC/UEFOC arrows. You should really do all of the work yourself. 

Hopefully you can get it to work in a way that keeps your confidence intact.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well guys today is opening day. Got my bow straightened out as good i could get it. The fp and bh are hitting within an 1" of each other and i'm gonna have to live with that til after bow season. After season i'm gonna switch to a limb driver pro v rest and possibly a diff broadhead. Hopefully i have some devestation pics for later today. Me and the GF are both shooting single bevel broadheads today so i may have more than one pic to share hopefully!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Well guys today is opening day. Got my bow straightened out as good i could get it. The fp and bh are hitting within an 1" of each other and i'm gonna have to live with that til after bow season. After season i'm gonna switch to a limb driver pro v rest and possibly a diff broadhead. Hopefully i have some devestation pics for later today. Me and the GF are both shooting single bevel broadheads today so i may have more than one pic to share hopefully!


Can you cut your shafts any shorter to stiffen the spine up?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Or did you try turning down the poundage?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I called Arrow Dynamics multiple times at different times of the day every single day this week since I spoke to them on Monday and was told I'd have an email telling when I would receive my order and still not one answer or email... This is really frustrating.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

henro said:


> I called Arrow Dynamics multiple times at different times of the day every single day this week since I spoke to them on Monday and was told I'd have an email telling when I would receive my order and still not one answer or email... This is really frustrating.


Is there anybody that works there that might have it out for you? Maybe, perhaps a vengeful secretary fervently defending the honor of here mate?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Is there anybody that works there that might have it out for you? Maybe, perhaps a vengeful secretary fervently defending the honor of here mate?


Lol I hope not. When I've been able to get them on the phone they've answered my questions, but that's been two or three out of a hundred times I've tried to reach them.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well guys no pics to post yet. It was hot yesterday evening and i think we bumped the deer in the morning. I thought that a broadhead flying to the left was a stiff spine?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Well guys no pics to post yet. It was hot yesterday evening and i think we bumped the deer in the morning. I thought that a broadhead flying to the left was a stiff spine?


I missed where you said it was bh to left of fp. Yes that is a sign of needing longer shafts, more tip weight, more draw weight or weaker spine.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> I missed where you said it was bh to left of fp. Yes that is a sign of needing longer shafts, more tip weight, more draw weight or weaker spine.


That's interesting... I made some Easton daTorch 330 arrows with 75 grains of brass and a 125 grain fp. OT2 showed my spine being weak, so I turned it down to 62#. I retuned the bow and now my BH are hitting left of my FPs... When I had it at 70# they were dead on...I just thought my spine was weak...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

May have been a rest position issue?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

If arrows are hitting left it is a weak spine. You do not want more tip weight. You want more shaft length, LESS tip weight, more weight on the back, or less draw weight. Or any of those combinations.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Kaizoku said:


> If arrows are hitting left it is a weak spine. You do not want more tip weight. You want more shaft length, LESS tip weight, more weight on the back, or less draw weight. Or any of those combinations.


Surely my xs at 62# wouldn't require a 300 spine...I will lower the dw some more and see what happens


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> May have been a rest position issue?


Possible but if that's the case I will end up against my riser


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Ryjax said:


> Surely my xs at 62# wouldn't require a 300 spine...I will lower the dw some more and see what happens


I was more or less talking in general, Henro said with a weak spine to add more tip weight which isn't the case, he could have brainfarted. If your arrows were flying good at 70# and not so good at 62# then put it back at 70#. Backing out limb bolts can also make the draw length longer unless you adjust the strings/cables. Which could have made your form be off resulting in poor groups.

I am unsure what problems you are having. Why did you turn down the weight to begin with?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Kaizoku said:


> I was more or less talking in general, Henro said with a weak spine to add more tip weight which isn't the case, he could have brainfarted. If your arrows were flying good at 70# and not so good at 62# then put it back at 70#. Backing out limb bolts can also make the draw length longer unless you adjust the strings/cables. Which could have made your form be off resulting in poor groups.
> 
> I am unsure what problems you are having. Why did you turn down the weight to begin with?


I turned it down for two reasons. One OT2 said I was way weak at 70# with that setup. Two, I wanted to see what penetration would be like at 62# with what is considered a slow bow


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Programs are not the end all be all. It can only estimate results. Sure they will be close to an extent. But the advances in technology has gotten to a point where new equipment cannot be compared on the same level as older equipment/technology.

I am not even sure what an XS is?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Kaizoku said:


> Programs are not the end all be all. It can only estimate results. Sure they will be close to an extent. But the advances in technology has gotten to a point where new equipment cannot be compared on the same level as older equipment/technology.
> 
> I am not even sure what an XS is?


Mathews Creed XS


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> I was more or less talking in general, Henro said with a weak spine to add more tip weight which isn't the case, he could have brainfarted. If your arrows were flying good at 70# and not so good at 62# then put it back at 70#. Backing out limb bolts can also make the draw length longer unless you adjust the strings/cables. Which could have made your form be off resulting in poor groups.
> 
> I am unsure what problems you are having. Why did you turn down the weight to begin with?


No I said if broadheads are hitting left of field points. You're thinking of paper tuning, this is broadhead tuning we are discussing. 

http://www.redhawk-archery.com/bh-tuning.php

http://www.slicktrick.net/node/36

http://cdn.eastonarchery.com/uploads/download-files/Tuning_Guide.pdf


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I do my broadhead tuning with my arrow selection. Before they are even fletched. Cut them in stages until the flight I want is achieved. Get them shooting right then fletch them up. Most people just get their shafts cut to a specific length, fletch them, shoot them, maybe tune, and DEAL with the groups they get. Arrows play a rule in accuracy and they are not created equal. Which most of the people participating in this thread likely know as they are seeking better performing arrows.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> I do my broadhead tuning with my arrow selection. Before they are even fletched. Cut them in stages until the flight I want is achieved. Get them shooting right then fletch them up. Most people just get their shafts cut to a specific length, fletch them, shoot them, maybe tune, and DEAL with the groups they get. Arrows play a rule in accuracy and they are not created equal. Which most of the people participating in this thread likely know as they are seeking better performing arrows.


What's that got to do with what I said?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I don't even know any more. I'm tired. Lol. I am likely in the wrong. If I am, I apologize.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> I don't even know any more. I'm tired. Lol. I am likely in the wrong. If I am, I apologize.


It's all good. [emoji482]


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

henro said:


> May have been a rest position issue?


I think this is the case,for some reason the trophy taker smack down pro does not agree with my carbon spyder 30. I have heard several people having problems with it and stating for some reason this rest does not like the carbon bows. I even had problems with it when i was shooting the easton injexions. I think after season i'm gonna save some money and get a limb driver pro v, i've heard they work well with the new hoyts.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> That's interesting... I made some Easton daTorch 330 arrows with 75 grains of brass and a 125 grain fp. OT2 showed my spine being weak, so I turned it down to 62#. I retuned the bow and now my BH are hitting left of my FPs... When I had it at 70# they were dead on...I just thought my spine was weak...


Did you turn it back up?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Did you turn it back up?


I plan on doing that tomorrow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I always recommend the QAD. Had them for many years and sold a ton when I worked at a pro shop and they never had any issues.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> I plan on doing that tomorrow.


let me know the results?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

henro said:


> I always recommend the QAD. Had them for many years and sold a ton when I worked at a pro shop and they never had any issues.


Same here. I've tried other rests but always come back to a HDX


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> let me know the results?


Will do man


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

I have them hitting dead on now


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I have them hitting dead on now


What was the issue?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Seems my draw weight was too low. Kept going up up 1/2 turns until my broadheads started hitting with my field points


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

interesting


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> interesting


Any kills with your new setup? Would love to see some carnage pics


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

just two does first week. first one i hit in spine and the arrow went through the spined and came out the other side sticking out at an angle with about 8" outside of the body cavity. When it hit her she rolled three times, looked like i shot her with a 30.-06. Second doe was at twenty eight yards, hit her behind left shoulder, she was angeling towards me it went through her ribs and exited out the right back hip and still went thrity yards up hill. She may have went thirty yards maybe. The interesting thing was the amount of blood in her intestines from the starburst effect. I'm going out this morning hopefully stick a decen buck and take some pics.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hey guys got some pics. Shot a decent ten last night and shot a spike last friday.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I know he is not the biggest but would you guys get him mounted or a Euro mount?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

this pic gene2000 requested. First doe of the season spine shot went all the way through spine and stuck out the opposite side of deer


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> just two does first week. first one i hit in spine and the arrow went through the spined and came out the other side sticking out at an angle with about 8" outside of the body cavity. When it hit her she rolled three times, looked like i shot her with a 30.-06. Second doe was at twenty eight yards, hit her behind left shoulder, she was angeling towards me it went through her ribs and exited out the right back hip and still went thrity yards up hill. She may have went thirty yards maybe. The interesting thing was the amount of blood in her intestines from the starburst effect. I'm going out this morning hopefully stick a decen buck and take some pics.


That's crazy!


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

I am super excited to do the 650 following the season. My question is im going to go down to a 55 pound bow, is the 650 grain arrow still gonna work


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

My heavy arrow is only at 525 gr and a 2216 with about 15% foc need to tweak it but its spine is limited here so arrow change is in order for more FOC.

Something else you guys all need to consider is this .You need to go up pounds not down to maximize the arrow and it penetration .There is dangerous bow hunting trend in able bodied men that is taking draw weights down rather than holding the same or more .There is still a need to optimize the equipments capabilities rather than diminish it and Dr Ashby speaks to this as well.

When men are shooting less poundage than many women even older men there is a need to build ones body back up rather than to turn down the bow .


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Glad this is up on top again it's a great thread. I shot a big 9 point on the 4th with my heavy efoc arrow but haven't had time to find this thread and post pictures. He was chasing a doe and I stopped him at like 15 yards as he was pushing her away from me. I knew I didn't have much time so I took the shot. 

He was quartering away pretty harsh so I put the pin at the back if the rib cage and executed my shot. I knew at the release that it was going to be a dead deer. He ran maybe 30 yards and fell over! I obviously didn't need the blood trail but I looked at it anyway and let me say the helix broadhead made a great blood trail! It was like 15 feet wide in some places not kidding!! The arrow entered right at the back if the rib cage for a quartering away double lung shot and some major arteries. I didn't get an exit whole surprisingly and I'm not sure the course of my arrow after it went through the lungs. We never found the front half of the arrow but we think it deflected off the offside shoulder and went into the neck because of the hard quartering shot.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Here is the entrance. You can't really tell from all the blood but it was a really big l shaped single bevel cut!


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

How much more arrow do I need???? I'm already burying it in the ground 4" after it passes through at 450g's with a 2" mechanical. Taking out 4 ribs and going through the leg.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Just under 19" inside spread with 12" g2's. Gross score of 142 1/8". I think he has more inches of antler than my elk this year lol


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

mn5503 said:


> How much more arrow do I need???? I'm already burying it in the ground 4" after it passes through at 450g's with a 2" mechanical. Taking out 4 ribs and going through the leg.


On shots that are great and go as planed I would say you don't need anymore arrow than what you have. But why happens if it doesn't go as planned and you need a little more penetration? I don't think you would feel the same if you happen to hit the hard part of the shoulder and watch your arrow barely penetrate and your 2" mechanical self destruct.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

great point. we build these arrows for when everything doesnt go right.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I don't think anyone say that you need an Ashby arrow(650+ grains and EFOC) to penetrate a deer well, but some find great joy in building and using them and it is always a great feeling when you know that you have the greatest potential to get good penetration when a hit is not totally perfect.
Personally I also like to be able to shoot at a deer from almost any angle and still get great penetration and a quick kill.

I am not totally at Ashby level with the arrow weight for my 70 lbs as the arrow for that is 615 grains and I don't have high FOC with that.
The arrow for my 80 lbs will be closer as it will weigh at least 650 grains and I will aim for high FOC, but not EFOC.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I don't think anyone say that you need an Ashby arrow(650+ grains and EFOC) to penetrate a deer well, but some find great joy in building and using them and it is always a great feeling when you know that you have the greatest potential to get good penetration when a hit is not totally perfect.
> Personally I also like to be able to shoot at a deer from almost any angle and still get great penetration and a quick kill.
> 
> I am not totally at Ashby level with the arrow weight for my 70 lbs as the arrow for that is 615 grains and I don't have high FOC with that.
> The arrow for my 80 lbs will be closer as it will weigh at least 650 grains and I will aim for high FOC, but not EFOC.


I understand and I thinks it's pretty cool actually.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

I spent a lot of time and money shooting arrows at 650 gr/20% FOC. You can get equal penetration and better speed with a .300 spine carbon shaft and 100 gr brass insert for 500 gr and 20% FOC. Commonly available components, cheap, easy to assemble.


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## Smith2013 (Aug 12, 2013)

whack&stack said:


> Lol I have no idea but I did actually laugh out loud when I read your post


Hey I'm in my mid twenties and shot aluminums for quite some time lol


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## trapper.robi (Jul 9, 2011)

For you guys running more than 200 grains up front on a 300 spine arrow at high poundge, how?? I just ran my bow on OnTarget, either a PSE DNA or Strother sr-71 at 62 and 67 lbs, and when ever I add anything higher than a 100 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead it says I'm weak... 

Just wondering if I'm using it wrong or what.... Id like to use a Goldtip velocity 300 spine with a 100 grain brass insert with either a 100 or 150 grain helix for my next build to get me about 515 grains total but dont want to pursue it if itll be weak.... Im only at 67lbs but they are 353 ibo bows.

29" draw length. Any help guys?? Im currently using an Axis with SS half in/outserts (56 grains) and 100 grain heads which gives me 450 grains total with my DNA and it tunes pretty well.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

trapper.robi said:


> For you guys running more than 200 grains up front on a 300 spine arrow at high poundge, how?? I just ran my bow on OnTarget, either a PSE DNA or Strother sr-71 at 62 and 67 lbs, and when ever I add anything higher than a 100 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead it says I'm weak...
> 
> Just wondering if I'm using it wrong or what.... Id like to use a Goldtip velocity 300 spine with a 100 grain brass insert with either a 100 or 150 grain helix for my next build to get me about 515 grains total but dont want to pursue it if itll be weak.... Im only at 67lbs but they are 353 ibo bows.
> 
> 29" draw length. Any help guys?? Im currently using an Axis with SS half in/outserts (56 grains) and 100 grain heads which gives me 450 grains total with my DNA and it tunes pretty well.


When calibrated correctly OnTarget2 has been very accurate for me. The only true way for you to know is to build and test. You have to do this regardless to ensure it works, don't rely on someone else's word or opinion. Bareshaft tuning and grouping broadheads with field points will show if the spine is right for your setup.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> I spent a lot of time and money shooting arrows at 650 gr/20% FOC. You can get equal penetration and better speed with a .300 spine carbon shaft and 100 gr brass insert for 500 gr and 20% FOC. Commonly available components, cheap, easy to assemble.


You won't get equal/better penetration going to a lighter setup. That's completely false info. If both arrow setups are tuned correctly to the bow, the heavier setup will always outperform.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

trapper.robi said:


> For you guys running more than 200 grains up front on a 300 spine arrow at high poundge, how?? I just ran my bow on OnTarget, either a PSE DNA or Strother sr-71 at 62 and 67 lbs, and when ever I add anything higher than a 100 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead it says I'm weak...
> 
> Just wondering if I'm using it wrong or what.... Id like to use a Goldtip velocity 300 spine with a 100 grain brass insert with either a 100 or 150 grain helix for my next build to get me about 515 grains total but dont want to pursue it if itll be weak.... Im only at 67lbs but they are 353 ibo bows.
> 
> 29" draw length. Any help guys?? Im currently using an Axis with SS half in/outserts (56 grains) and 100 grain heads which gives me 450 grains total with my DNA and it tunes pretty well.


I have been using some 300 spine small diameter Beaman carbon arrows that I don't remember the name of now at full shaft length for my Destroyer 340 at 70 lbs and 31" DL with a 175 grain broadhead to a total arrow weight of 615 grains and I have no issues with a spine that is to weak at all.
That said, I moved to Gold Tip Kinetic XT Big Game 200 arrows last year to be totally sure and to be able to stack even more front weight.
I don't mind a stiff spine at all.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Congrats on the nice buck bowtechforlife!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Never shared the new arrow build on here so this is the specs:

Gold Tip Kinetic XT Big Game .200 spine 29.25" carbon to carbon 11.6gpi
Gold Tip Large Nock Bushing 7.4gr
Nockturnal G Nock 12.3gr
(3) Trueflight 2" Shield Back RW HP Feather 1.2gr each
100gr Brass HIT Inserts from 3Rivers
2.5" of Easton X7 Eclipse 2014 Aluminum for external footing 24gr
260gr Abowyer Alaskan Brown Bear Screw-In

Total Mass= 752gr 
FOC= 24.21% with field point(don't have heads yet)
239FPS from my Mathews MR5 71lbs @29" DL


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

trapper.robi said:


> For you guys running more than 200 grains up front on a 300 spine arrow at high poundge, how?? I just ran my bow on OnTarget, either a PSE DNA or Strother sr-71 at 62 and 67 lbs, and when ever I add anything higher than a 100 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead it says I'm weak...
> 
> Just wondering if I'm using it wrong or what.... Id like to use a Goldtip velocity 300 spine with a 100 grain brass insert with either a 100 or 150 grain helix for my next build to get me about 515 grains total but dont want to pursue it if itll be weak.... Im only at 67lbs but they are 353 ibo bows.
> 
> 29" draw length. Any help guys?? Im currently using an Axis with SS half in/outserts (56 grains) and 100 grain heads which gives me 450 grains total with my DNA and it tunes pretty well.


My draw is only 27.5"/70 lbs with a .300 spine shaft and 200 gr up front. With your draw length and the high IBO, you might be better served with a stiffer shaft. But, I better you could achieve good spine with a .300 spine shaft and 100 gr inserts if it is not overly long. In other words, don't leave excessive shaft overhanging the front of the riser. As above, the only way to tell for sure is to test. The archery software(s) is a starting point. Lancaster will sell single shafts so you could order 2-3 to test.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I draw 27.5 with 300 gr up front and 65#s. My Kinetic 300 spine fly true, although I may go to the 200 just because.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Sounds like a heck of an arrow Henro post some pics on here if you get the chance. Did you do any good this year in bow season? I remember u said you weren't gonna get much time in the woods this year?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Sounds like a heck of an arrow Henro post some pics on here if you get the chance. Did you do any good this year in bow season? I remember u said you weren't gonna get much time in the woods this year?


I've got pics in my ashby arrow build thread. I took 2 does and a 8pt with the bow this year. Pics of them are in there as well.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hey guys i am thinking of putting my 200 gr monarch single bevel heads up for sale. These are $120 brand new. All three have been through deer but are still in good shape. You can view them at www.alaskabowhunting.com under forged single bevel broadheads 200 grain Monarch. Not sure yet what i would even ask for them? If anyone would happen to be interested plz pm me.


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## constitution (Dec 5, 2012)

henro said:


> Never shared the new arrow build on here so this is the specs:
> 
> Gold Tip Kinetic XT Big Game .200 spine 29.25" carbon to carbon 11.6gpi
> Gold Tip Large Nock Bushing 7.4gr
> ...


now that's an arrow


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok Ashby experts i have got some questions for you guys. In your opinion is it more important for your broadhead ferrule to be larger than your arrow shaft or more important to hit the 650 mark and sacrifice your arrow shaft being 9% bigger than your broahead ferrule?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Ferrule needs to be bigger than shaft.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That is what i was thinking too.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok Ashby experts i have got some questions for you guys. In your opinion is it more important for your broadhead ferrule to be larger than your arrow shaft or more important to hit the 650 mark and sacrifice your arrow shaft being 9% bigger than your broahead ferrule?


http://tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/2007 Update, Part 8.pdf

"*Shaft-diameter to ferrule-diameter ratio is number five.* It shows an average 10% penetration-gain when the shaft is at least 5% smaller than the broadhead's ferrule diameter; compared to a case where shaft and broadhead ferrule have equal diameter. When shaft diameter exceeds that of the broadhead's ferrule, penetration is decreased by an average of 30%; compared to a case where shaft and broadhead ferrule have equal diameter. That means a 40% difference in tissue penetration when a shaft having a favorable ratio is compared
to one with an unfavorable ratio.
Shaft-diameter to ferrule-diameter ratio is applicable to all arrows. Regardless of the other design factors present or absent, you should avoid use of arrows having a shaft diameter greater than that of your broadhead's ferrule. Ideally, your arrow's shaft should be at least 5% smaller in diameter than your broadhead's ferrule.

*Arrow mass is number six on the list.* Don't confuse 'mass' with 'size' or 'bulk'. Arrow mass is closely related to arrow weight, but isn't exactly the same. Mass reflects how much matter is in the arrow, and weight refers to how hard gravity pulls on that matter. When talking about force or energy, arrow mass is the correct term to use, rather than arrow weight. However, as long as your hunting is confined to planet earth it's ok to think of 'mass' as implying 'weight'.

Greater arrow mass increases bow efficiency, absorbing more of the bow's stored energy when fired. That means more arrow force. But there's more. When all else is equal, an arrow's tissue penetration is directly proportional to its momentum. Don't confuse this to mean two different arrows will penetrate equally just because they have equal momentum. How much of the arrow's momentum comes from its mass, and how much its velocity, is also a factor; as is the efficiency with which your broadhead applies the arrow's momentum.

Momentum belongs to the arrow; it is a property of the arrow, carried within it. It is derived from the arrow's forward motion and mass. As an arrow slows during penetration velocity is shed, but its mass remains constant. At equal impact force, the heavier your arrow the longer it takes to stop. The result is deeper tissue penetration. That's part of Newton's First Law of Motion, and its relevance is consistently demonstrated throughout real-tissue testing.

Arrow-mass advantage is available and applicable to all arrows, of all designs. You should use the greatest arrow mass (heaviest arrow) acceptable trajectory allows. Even with every other penetration-maximizing factor in place, greater arrow mass still equates to more usable-force, and more outcomepenetration."


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Thank you henro that clearly states it


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

If a 300 is to weak wouldnt footing it 3 inches stiffen it back up some? 

I understand it would add a little weight up front which weakens it some but the added solid 3" should up the spine overall...


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

crankn101 said:


> If a 300 is to weak wouldnt footing it 3 inches stiffen it back up some?
> 
> I understand it would add a little weight up front which weakens it some but the added solid 3" should up the spine overall...


No.
The footing is in the front and will weaken the spine because of the added weight.
And the footing doesn't "stiffen" the arrow where it flexes the most.

So adding a footing to your arrow will always weaken the spine.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

Have you actually tested it? It's a fact at some point it would stiffen the arrow, it's just at what length of the footing. 

What your saying sounds good on paper and is what I referenced in my post, but I think a longer footing piece would up it.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Of course, if you add a very long footing, it can stiffen the spine.
But then I really don't see the point of the footing instead of using a stiffer, stronger and heavier arrow.
A 200 or 250 arrow would be a much better choice then.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

Norwegian Woods said:


> Of course, if you add a very long footing, it can stiffen the spine.
> But then I really don't see the point of the footing instead of using a stiffer, stronger and heavier arrow.
> A 200 or 250 arrow would be a much better choice then.


10/4


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

What i got to work ended up being shy of 650 grains. It only weighs in at 564. A goldtip ultra light 300 with a 200 gr field point and a 100 gr brass insert, ended up at 23.98%FOC But i think when i get the money i am going to try a big game 250 and see if i can obtain the 650 mark as well


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

My guess is that 9 out of 10 guys with 650gr arrows will shoot with worse accuracy. Easy to test; Take an avg weight arrow- say 450 gr and your 650 gr and do a walk up target or a few targets at avg hunting distances 25,35,45 and see which arrow you are more accurate with....many of us already know the answer....and its not the ABH logs.

If 650 was a huge advantage over avg weight....I could see it but 20 pages of this- really? [sarcasm intended] Then we have the whole EFOC thing? *It might serve some of you to research what the best archers in the world do as to FOC- hint they don't really give a hoot as ALL of them are in the 9%-16% FOC for best accuracy.* Don't believe me- search it on the FITA forum or ask a World Class archer. High FOC makes your arrow more critical...which essentially makes it less accurate. Cutting off your nose despite your face. 

There is no doubt a 650gr arrow will penetrate better if you are hunting BIG critters- but deer? Sure its a benefit on a 'bone shot' but how much accuracy/ trajectory/ forgiveness on the shot do you lose with those logs? I've shot very heavy arrows- you lose a lot. Its become a cottage industry to hype this stuff and many here have fallen prey to the hype.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Beendare said:


> My guess is that 9 out of 10 guys with 650gr arrows will shoot with worse accuracy. Easy to test; Take an avg weight arrow- say 450 gr and your 650 gr and do a walk up target or a few targets at avg hunting distances 25,35,45 and see which arrow you are more accurate with....many of us already know the answer....and its not the ABH logs.
> 
> If 650 was a huge advantage over avg weight....I could see it but 20 pages of this- really? [sarcasm intended] Then we have the whole EFOC thing? *It might serve some of you to research what the best archers in the world do as to FOC- hint they don't really give a hoot as ALL of them are in the 9%-16% FOC for best accuracy.* Don't believe me- search it on the FITA forum or ask a World Class archer. High FOC makes your arrow more critical...which essentially makes it less accurate. Cutting off your nose despite your face.
> 
> There is no doubt a 650gr arrow will penetrate better if you are hunting BIG critters- but deer? Sure its a benefit on a 'bone shot' but how much accuracy/ trajectory/ forgiveness on the shot do you lose with those logs? I've shot very heavy arrows- you lose a lot. Its become a cottage industry to hype this stuff and many here have fallen prey to the hype.


You started your whole statement with a guess and no proven facts. Everything that has been done with the Ashby reports are proven scientific fact. I don't see how you would think putting more weight up front would make you shoot less accurately?


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> You started your whole statement with a guess and no proven facts. Everything that has been done with the Ashby reports are proven scientific fact. I don't see how you would think putting more weight up front would make you shoot less accurately?


The facts are there if you open your eyes; NONE OF THE WORLDS MOST ACCURATE SHOOTERS SHOOT HIGH FOC- Zero, not a one. So wouldn't you think that Olympians striving for every advantage would do just that? Of course they do.....and none shoot EFOC, not a one. i've shot EFOC arrows- more difficult to tune and more critical of form errors [a big deal in a hunting situation] in my experience- but its even worse than that- they don't group as good as something in the 9%-16% that the WC shooters use- HMMM what a coincidence.....[sarcasm intended]

If you want to sacrifice accuracy for some penetration....isn't that getting the cart before the horse? 

And please spend a little time researching what these world class shooters say before you chime in repeating the babble from some of these backyard testers


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

So if you are against shooting high FOC heavy arrows why are you even looking on this thread. This is a thread about building and shooting those types of arrows so why bother with bashing on it?


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Beendare said:


> The facts are there if you open your eyes; NONE OF THE WORLDS MOST ACCURATE SHOOTERS SHOOT HIGH FOC- Zero, not a one.


 Oh for crying out loud!
Um- The 'world's most accurate shooters' onlyneed to get their arrows (halfway) through *A PIECE OF CONSTRUCTION PAPER*, (not fifteen hundred pounds of hair, hide, muscle, sinew and bone.)
Sheesh!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

KRONIIK said:


> Oh for crying out loud!
> Um- The 'world's most accurate shooters' onlyneed to get their arrows (halfway) through *A PIECE OF CONSTRUCTION PAPER*, (not fifteen hundred pounds of hair, hide, muscle, sinew and bone.)
> Sheesh!


Great point!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

seiowabow said:


> I've never understood why people think Ashbys findings with a recurve are applicable to today's fast compounds.


I don't understand how you can't figure that out.


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## seiowabow (Dec 19, 2010)

If Ashby did all his research with 330fps bow, do you think it would be the same?


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## B3AV3R (Apr 19, 2006)

seiowabow said:


> I've never understood why people think Ashbys findings with a recurve are applicable to today's fast compounds.


Why would these findings not translate to a compound?


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## seiowabow (Dec 19, 2010)

Don Beaver said:


> Why would these findings not translate to a compound?


Because if he used a fast modem bow I doubt he would have decided on an arrow that heavy.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Ashby was also shooting water buffalo from level ground...not hardly the same as a deer from an elevated position with a correspondingly narrow vital zone. I spent a year (about 20 deer) shooting these arrows and I couldn't see any improved penetration over a 500gr/18% FOC arrow. Hard to believe research propagated by the people selling the very expensive components required to get to 650/20.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

seiowabow said:


> Because if he used a fast modem bow I doubt he would have decided on an arrow that heavy.


It may not have been 650 grains but I bet it still would have been heavy by most standards.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

kwilson16 said:


> Ashby was also shooting water buffalo from level ground...not hardly the same as a deer from an elevated position with a correspondingly narrow vital zone. I spent a year (about 20 deer) shooting these arrows and I couldn't see any improved penetration over a 500gr/18% FOC arrow. Hard to believe research propagated by the people selling the very expensive components required to get to 650/20.


I think 500/18 is a respectable arrow that will hit like a hammer. What components did you use to achieve that?


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I think 500/18 is a respectable arrow that will hit like a hammer. What components did you use to achieve that?



I agree, im shooting 493 and I think it was 15-16 foc.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Ryjax said:


> I think 500/18 is a respectable arrow that will hit like a hammer. What components did you use to achieve that?


A .300 spine shaft (GT Velocity or Ultralite) with a 100 gr brass insert and a 100 gr broadhead will yield approximately 500/18 with slight variance for shaft length/vanes. Economical, easy-to-assemble, commonly available and a good blend of speed and penetration.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm going to say this and i'm not real proud of it but i have made pass throughs with a 250 gr arrow, but that was a perfect broadside shot on a deer. You don't need a 650 gr arrow to make a pass thru on a deer. When you go with a very light arrow your options get very limited to the shot angle and have to worry about hitting bone. All a 650 gr arrow does with the right broadhead is takes away that worry of shot angle or bone deflection. I like it because i don't have to wait for the animal to turn a certain way or it might not present the perfect shot at all. I think a lot of people miss the point that shooting these types of arrows is more like an insurance policy. It's nice to have when something goes wrong. And if you have never made a bad shot then you haven't hunted long enough to experience it.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

henro said:


> You obviously have no idea about tuning bows and building arrows with proper spine requirements making these statements. I've built all ranges of weight and foc and when done correctly the tuning and accuracy is no different if not better and more forgiving. I've tested at long ranges, I'm talking 80 yards which is much further than needed in most hunting situations and in very high winds 30-40+++mph day after Hurricane Sandy came through. I stated before you're opinion is not wanted here because it is just that, misinformed statements not fact. This is a thread for sharing builds on high mass and the like, not why you think your way is better. Stop trying to derail the thread with your ignorance. To be blunt, nobody gives a **** what you think in here, make a thread about your opinion if you feel the need. Then crankn can get come swing from your nutts on there.


Yes I'm kind of tired of reading Beendare's posts about how he thinks efoc is less accurate. That is completely false! The only reason it didn't work for him is because he couldn't build a properly spined efoc arrow!


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

kwilson16 said:


> Ashby was also shooting water buffalo from level ground...not hardly the same as a deer from an elevated position with a correspondingly narrow vital zone. I spent a year (about 20 deer) shooting these arrows and I couldn't see any improved penetration over a 500gr/18% FOC arrow. Hard to believe research propagated by the people selling the very expensive components required to get to 650/20.


Exactly. its not that we cannot draw anything from Ashby studies-we can regarding penetration. [That is only one factor!]The potential energy of the avg trad archer is pitiful compared to a modern compound [hey, and I love shooting trad bows...but its a fact] So i'm saying take the Ashby studies IN CONTEXT. He did an excellent job illustrating that a LOW ENERGY SETUP [TRAD EQUIPMENT] with very close trad shots [ie20yds] benefits from maxing it out with ultra heavy arrows. 

For these backyard wannabes to extrapolate that into, "you need to shoot 650gr to kill a deer" is just silly. EFOC is less of a factor for the guys shooting a modern compound- we aren't bending an arrow around the riser like many of the trad guys. We can shoot stiffer arrows with a shoot through riser- fact. You can't do that with many of the trad setups Ashby was testing- fact. 

Look, it all boils down to maxing out your setup for your intended purpose. Spend 3 weeks in Australia shooting big critters like I have and you will appreciate Ashbys testing. These backyard guys are shooting deer, many the small east coast deer and for all I know have never shot a big critter- just targets in their backyard. Shooting tiny NJ deer with a 650 gr arrow is like bringing a bazooka to the pistol range- it actually puts you at a disadvantage. Anyone who has stalked elk or deer in the mountains knows a forgiving setup with decent trajectory is a good balance. I've seen over 50 elk die to an arrow...ask your backyard tester gurus if they have ever seen an elk in the wild!? The trajectory from a 700 gr arrow on the avg shot distance in the Rockies is going to be detrimental to your accuracy/shot location. The EFOC is going to make that same hunting shot much more critical of form errors common on hunting shots- these factors have not been considered by the backyard guys....maybe they haven't been out of their backyard? 

Final word; my advice, consider all factors when you are setting up your arrow. Accuracy, your intended use/avg shot distances, Tuning and bow forgiveness, BH efficiency...and yes penetration. i've found for the avg NA animal a bit heavier arrow is the good- going too light or too heavy doesn't work as good.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Beendare said:


> Exactly. its not that we cannot draw anything from Ashby studies-we can regarding penetration. [That is only one factor!]The potential energy of the avg trad archer is pitiful compared to a modern compound [hey, and I love shooting trad bows...but its a fact] So i'm saying take the Ashby studies IN CONTEXT. He did an excellent job illustrating that a LOW ENERGY SETUP [TRAD EQUIPMENT] with very close trad shots [ie20yds] benefits from maxing it out with ultra heavy arrows.
> 
> For these backyard wannabes to extrapolate that into, "you need to shoot 650gr to kill a deer" is just silly. EFOC is less of a factor for the guys shooting a modern compound- we aren't bending an arrow around the riser like many of the trad guys. We can shoot stiffer arrows with a shoot through riser- fact. You can't do that with many of the trad setups Ashby was testing- fact.
> 
> ...


What do you consider a bit heavier arrow? I know that's a crazy question to ask after all that info, but I find a statement about what is heavy/light is subjective to the shooter.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

There's the kicker.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Ryjax said:


> What do you consider a bit heavier arrow? I know that's a crazy question to ask after all that info, but I find a statement about what is heavy/light is subjective to the shooter.


I don't understand what people talk about when they talk about a arrow that is to heavy?
To heavy for what or who?
To heavy for someones setup, might not be to heavy for another persons setup.
I like to have a arrow speed of about 260 fps and I get that with a 615 grain arrow with my 70 lbs bow.
My accuracy is great and my penetration is outstanding.

Maybe a 615 or 650 grain arrow is to heavy for some, but not for all.
This depends on so many variables, so no one can make a blank statement saying that 650 grain is to heavy.

In my opinion can most people with 60-70 draw weight and a decent draw length shoot a 500 grain arrow with great benefits without sacrificing much.
And the small sacrifices are well worth it in my opinion.

I agree with *Beendare* that most people don't need a Ashby arrow, if any, for hunting deer, but I can't see the harm of using one


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I don't remember anyone on this thread saying that you need a 650 grain arrow to kill a deer? I believe that in all 22 pages that has never been stated. The only reason 650 is important is because it is the heavy bone threshold mark. The really only heavy bone on a white tail is the humurus knuckle and i guess some would consider the spine a heavy bone. So i'm not real sure what his point is to rambling on on this thread. This thread was started to help people achieve that type of arrow and give and take any suggestions while trying to achieve shooting that type of arrow. I started this thread and have had no arguing until now. Let's get back to the point of building the arrows and not arguing over what you need to kill a deer.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Excellent points, Norwegian Woods! It is probably more useful to talk about arrow weights in terms of arrow weight/draw weight. Light would be approximately 5-6 grains per pound of draw weight. Beendare's point is that there are recognizable gains for shooting 7-8 grains per pound (reduced noise, increased penetration). However, he and I agree that at 8-9 grains per pound, the advantages are outweighed by the loss of trajectory. For most archers, 650 grains is past optimal and does not permit shooting angles without regard to bone structure.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I don't understand what people talk about when they talk about a arrow that is to heavy?
> To heavy for what or who?
> To heavy for someones setup, might not be to heavy for another persons setup.
> I like to have a arrow speed of about 260 fps and I get that with a 615 grain arrow with my 70 lbs bow.
> ...


I think my question and your statement are referring to the same ideals.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I don't understand what people talk about when they talk about a arrow that is to heavy?
> To heavy for what or who?
> To heavy for someones setup, might not be to heavy for another persons setup.
> I like to have a arrow speed of about 260 fps and I get that with a 615 grain arrow with my 70 lbs bow.
> ...


Good comment. I have had good luck blowing through deer backbones, elk scapulas, deer leg bones with much less than 650gr. Does that dispute Ashby- NO! If you read Ashby study carefully, he is talking about an "everytime" with the lower energy threshold trad equipment scenario.


Guys ask; "What is heavy?" Good question. I would consider an arrow for deer thats 450-500gr a tad on the heavy side, though I do think guys benefit from being somewhere in this weight range as the trajectory difference is not much.
I've seen poor results with the extreme ends of the heavy/light spectrum....lets call that 340 and 650. I've seen the very light soda straw arrows do crazy things with some poor results....and I've seen guys miss low on layup shots with very heavy arrows that have a 2 yd +/- window to make a good shot. personal experience; I've had heavy arrows in the 155-22% FOC still tune but over that they got squirrely. Hey, we all know 400gr-ish arrows kill thousands of deer a year, we know they work. So when someone tells me its better to shoot something in the extreme...I consider the source,what actual experience does that person have?

But again, that same 450-500 gr sweet spot doesn't factor all of the components to a good setup I previously mentioned. if you are shooting short shots and have an arrow thats 600 gr that shoots pinpoint groups even under hunting conditions- great! as on those short bow shots the extra weight has other advantages. That same setup for a guy hunting highcountry mulies is going to be lacking in trajectory making a 40 yd shot very critical. 

Then factor, some of these high FOC arrows are more critical- and its no wonder- you are throwing off the balance of the arrow. I prefer to listen to the experts; World class shooters where accuracy is paramount that shoot a balanced arrow in the 9%-15% FOC range. Or, go to the manufacturers website.....or do you think Easton doesn't know what they are talking about? Jeez

link to the excellent AT FITA forum;
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Cut and paste of link where they refer to "high FOC"as 11%-16%;
_How much FOC does one need? The range of FOC recommended
for different forms of archery varies. In their charts,
Easton shows the following recommended FOC ranges, with
calculations based on the AMO Standard formula:
o* FITA (Olympic Style) 11% to 16%*
o 3-D Archery 6% to 12%
o Field Archery 10% to 15%
o Hunting 10% to 15%
FITA shooters, who compete at the longest ranges, use the
highest average FOC’s; 3-D shooters the lowest; with field
archers and hunters in-between.
Why do FITA shooters prefer a high amount of FOC? They are
seeking precision long range accuracy. _

I know I've learned a lot from some of the W C shooters I've had the pleasure to shoot against- even if they smoked me. Shooting at the trad nationals taught me more in one day than in 6 months on a website [though AT is a very good site- grin] I learned more about heavy arrows and penetration spending 3 weeks shooting 2,000# critters in Australia [lucky to have a nephew there] 

Hey, i like watching these guys shoot stuff in their backyard as much as the next guy, I just consider it for what it is- entertainment. Am i going to take their word over Eastons? No! I know there are ton of guys that have killed a pile of deer with 380-500gr arrows nodding their head with the knowledge that- "my setup just plain works" ....don't let entertainment affect what you already know- Grin

Beendare Out!


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## Where's Bruce? (Jul 11, 2011)

My bison arrows weighed 777grs. I used FMJ250 shafts with a 150gr BH. Blew through my bull like melted butter.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That sounds like a beast of an arrow


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## tscan (Jun 18, 2010)

I am interested in the results as well


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Yes I'm kind of tired of reading Beendare's posts about how he thinks efoc is less accurate. That is completely false! The only reason it didn't work for him is because he couldn't build a properly spined efoc arrow!


 i'm not trying to upset the applecart, just post accurate intel. Way back when I was playing with EFOC I could get my arrows to shoot just fine, just not as good groups or as accurate as my lower FOC arrows. 

Then after talking to a few pros [ASA circuit 3D buddies] and a couple local pros that spend months tweaking their setups for accuracy...it started to make sense. If it was better, they would be doing it! I confirmed the FOC thing with the old Olympic archery coach Dick Tone (super guy!) that I met on an elk hunt many years ago and he told me essentially the same as what Easton recommends and all the FITA pros shoot. My opinion...sure is.....based on some pretty solid info. 

Good news for the avg compound guy...you don't have to over think it or spend big $$$ on special ultra heavy arrows....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Beendare said:


> i'm not trying to upset the applecart, just post accurate intel. Way back when I was playing with EFOC I could get my arrows to shoot just fine, just not as good groups or as accurate as my lower FOC arrows.
> 
> Then after talking to a few pros [ASA circuit 3D buddies] and a couple local pros that spend months tweaking their setups for accuracy...it started to make sense. If it was better, they would be doing it! I confirmed the FOC thing with the old Olympic archery coach Dick Tone (super guy!) that I met on an elk hunt many years ago and he told me essentially the same as what Easton recommends and all the FITA pros shoot. My opinion...sure is.....based on some pretty solid info.
> 
> Good news for the avg compound guy...you don't have to over think it or spend big $$$ on special ultra heavy arrows....


I've had no issues whatsoever with groups and accuracy with my high FOC builds. If anything they've performed better. That goes for anybody I know shooting these types of builds. What have you actually tried yourself? Everything you've posted leads me to believe you don't know how to construct a properly spined build for this.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> i'm not trying to upset the applecart, just post accurate intel. Way back when I was playing with EFOC I could get my arrows to shoot just fine, just not as good groups or as accurate as my lower FOC arrows.
> 
> Then after talking to a few pros [ASA circuit 3D buddies] and a couple local pros that spend months tweaking their setups for accuracy...it started to make sense. If it was better, they would be doing it! I confirmed the FOC thing with the old Olympic archery coach Dick Tone (super guy!) that I met on an elk hunt many years ago and he told me essentially the same as what Easton recommends and all the FITA pros shoot. My opinion...sure is.....based on some pretty solid info.
> 
> Good news for the avg compound guy...you don't have to over think it or spend big $$$ on special ultra heavy arrows....


One of the main pros of high foc is penetration. Less oscillation at impact means better penetration. Fita guys could care less about penetration. Me and Brady Ellison talked at ATA, he shoots like 12% foc , he said he could shoot either just as good so no reason to up his weight. I then asked him about penetration on higher foc arrows... He didn't know. Point is just because pro archers shoot one thing doesn't mean **** when shooting an animal. High foc aids in penetration. Overall flight IMO is better but that also depends on the persons form and shooting capabilities to determine that.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Why do you get on these threads and tell people otherwise, when you don't shoot a 650 grain high foc arrow? If they want to then great and stop with your hear say crap . Once again you have probably never tested any of your theories


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

If you are in to target archery, you are not worried about penetration. If you are a hunter, you want two holes and an arrow buried in the dirt. The high FOC and arrow weight definitely help in this area. It is just physics, but I can tell you from personal experience that there is no comparison between my 400-425 grain arrow setup and my 600+ high FOC arrow setup. Apples and oranges with penetration.

Will a 400 grain arrow give you two holes? Absolutely, if you hit the right spot. I am just planning for the times when I don't hit the right spot.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

Preparing for the worst case scenario or creating it...


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## tmoran (Dec 9, 2003)

Not sure the FITA data point references helps hunters. Those FITA chosen FOC% aren't based on trying to fly broadheads. I can see where after a point they don't need anymore weight as the target tips don't try and steer the arrow. I think the merit of higher FOC% would have more of an impact on hunters trying to accurately fly arrows with broadheads.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Having a high FOC shortens your lever arm and in turn makes penetration easier. With a longer lever arm it makes it harder to penetrate. Watch this vid 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a51cK62k9jY


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Webpage.aspx?WebpageId=52


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I love the trajectory argument. Do they think bow hunting was invented 5 years ago and every bow out there has always had a fast IBO of 330+? What about the bows from the 80s and 90s or before that? How the hell did those guys hunt right? Those slow bows must've missed everything right? Those people were such unethical slobs for going out there and hunting with them and those heavy aluminum arrows available at the time! How dare they!


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

At 3:51 seconds of the video should tell you how well high foc helps in penetration , if people disagree it's because of there ego's. The videos are awesome and is good for people getting into it and avid bowhunters,it also proves you can't change physics, heavier , high foc arrows are in a league of there own and it's up to the hunter to figure out what they are personally happy with.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

crankn101 said:


> Preparing for the worst case scenario or creating it...


Well said


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

henro said:


> I love the trajectory argument. Do they think bow hunting was invented 5 years ago and every bow out there has always had a fast IBO of 330+? What about the bows from the 80s and 90s or before that? How the hell did those guys hunt right? Those slow bows must've missed everything right? Those people were such unethical slobs for going out there and hunting with them and those heavy aluminum arrows available at the time! How dare they!


The trajectory argument is a valid one, speed helps accuracy plain and simple. Why do you think overdraw got popular on those older bows, to pick up speed. Speed is very valuable, but not at the cost of shoot-ability and penetration (read FOC). On the flip side penetration is very valuable, but not at the cost of speed.

It's simple, extremes on either end are bad.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

swany10 said:


> The trajectory argument is a valid one, speed helps accuracy plain and simple. Why do you think overdraw got popular on those older bows, to pick up speed. Speed is very valuable, but not at the cost of shoot-ability and penetration (read FOC). On the flip side penetration is very valuable, but not at the cost of speed.
> 
> It's simple, extremes on either end are bad.


Valid to who? It's a blanket statement that scares people off that have never even tried shooting a heavier arrow. Some people may be comfortable shooting slower speeds than others. Everyone is brainwashed they need to shoot a certain speed and most don't even know why. Some people practice more than others and are competent at judging distance better. Those that aren't usually buy range finders too. The heavier slower arrow is going to penetrate better on misjudged shots as well. If you're not good at judging yardage past a certain distance don't shoot that far.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> Preparing for the worst case scenario or creating it...





Beendare said:


> Well said


You 2 should get a room.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

A room for 2 at motel reality and common sense.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

How bout we keep it on track for guys who like and or want to know about the topic started...if not then stay off. This isn't a thread of which is better or what's too much...


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

henro said:


> Valid to who? It's a blanket statement that scares people off that have never even tried shooting a heavier arrow. Some people may be comfortable shooting slower speeds than others. Everyone is brainwashed they need to shoot a certain speed and most don't even know why. Some people practice more than others and are competent at judging distance better. Those that aren't usually buy range finders too. The heavier slower arrow is going to penetrate better on misjudged shots as well. If you're not good at judging yardage past a certain distance don't shoot that far.


Valid to everyone. Speed helps, helps every scenario you listed, you are so one sided in your argument you can't even see a simple point like that. Take the listed spec's in your signature as an example: what if you backed off your FOC a bit to 22 or 20% by taking some weight off your arrow. You're not going to be losing very much, if anything, in penetration, but you will gain some speed. Speed that will make your trajectory more forgiving. You can argue until you're blue in the face that you practice a ton and that you can judge distance perfectly, but you are human and you will make mistakes, why not make your set up a bit more accommodating to those mistakes?

The irony here is that while you are arguing that being obsessed with speed is bad because you lose positives in other areas like penetration, you don't seem to see that you are equally obsessed with FOC, failing to see or admit the negatives that come with it.


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

I have some gold tip velocity 300's that are cut to 29.5 inches. How much weight can I add to the front of the arrow before I have to worry about being under spined? I haven't seen much info on that. Right now I've got a 455 grain total weight arrow with a 100 grain head, and a 11.4 grain insert with a 50 grain weight added to it. Thanks to my heavy 25 grain lighted nocks I'm only at about 12.5% measured FOC, though the gold tip calc says I should be over 13%. Playing around with the gold tip calculator I can get my FOC to 19.76% if I remove my lighted nock and go back to the acculite nocks (8.3gr), change to 125 grain heads, and add another 50 gr insert weight, for a total arrow weight of about 510 gr. All this would be really easy to do so I'm thinking of trying it out, but I don't know if that much weight, 236.4 grains, all the way up front would make me under spined. Any help?

It looks like there are some people on this thread with a very similar arrow build and it's working for them, but I'd still like to see some guidelines for the arrow length/spine/tip weight relationship.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

swany10 said:


> I have some gold tip velocity 300's that are cut to 29.5 inches. How much weight can I add to the front of the arrow before I have to worry about being under spined? I haven't seen much info on that. Right now I've got a 455 grain total weight arrow with a 100 grain head, and a 11.4 grain insert with a 50 grain weight added to it. Thanks to my heavy 25 grain lighted nocks I'm only at about 12.5% measured FOC, though the gold tip calc says I should be over 13%. Playing around with the gold tip calculator I can get my FOC to 19.76% if I remove my lighted nock and go back to the acculite nocks (8.3gr), change to 125 grain heads, and add another 50 gr insert weight, for a total arrow weight of about 510 gr. All this would be really easy to do so I'm thinking of trying it out, but I don't know if that much weight, 236.4 grains, all the way up front would make me under spined. Any help?
> 
> It looks like there are some people on this thread with a very similar arrow build and it's working for them, but I'd still like to see some guidelines for the arrow length/spine/tip weight relationship.


What's your bow setup, and sorry if it's in sig, can't view in tapatalk


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

sethro02 said:


> What's your bow setup, and sorry if it's in sig, can't view in tapatalk


Carbon matrix rkt, 30.5 draw lenth, 70 lbs. It's not in my sig, but I should really add it, not the first time I've needed to provide the info.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

swany10 said:


> I have some gold tip velocity 300's that are cut to 29.5 inches. How much weight can I add to the front of the arrow before I have to worry about being under spined? I haven't seen much info on that. Right now I've got a 455 grain total weight arrow with a 100 grain head, and a 11.4 grain insert with a 50 grain weight added to it. Thanks to my heavy 25 grain lighted nocks I'm only at about 12.5% measured FOC, though the gold tip calc says I should be over 13%. Playing around with the gold tip calculator I can get my FOC to 19.76% if I remove my lighted nock and go back to the acculite nocks (8.3gr), change to 125 grain heads, and add another 50 gr insert weight, for a total arrow weight of about 510 gr. All this would be really easy to do so I'm thinking of trying it out, but I don't know if that much weight, 236.4 grains, all the way up front would make me under spined. Any help?


Few thoughts:

You could install a brass insert and then remove it if the shaft is too weak.

If you assemble an arrow and its weak-spined, then there's a possibility of trimming its length to stiffen dynamic spine.

You are probably going to have to try it to see. What's your draw length/weight?


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

swany10 said:


> Carbon matrix rkt, 30.5 draw lenth, 70 lbs. It's not in my sig, but I should really add it, not the first time I've needed to provide the info.


I'd stop at adding 125 grain head. That's gonna put you on the low end of the "ok" zone. That 30" draw and 70# coupled with the added weight up front is about all you can do bud. Put a 125 head on and shoot. If it's irratic grouping then go back to 100. Don't go more than a 125 head


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

swany10 said:


> Valid to everyone. Speed helps, helps every scenario you listed, you are so one sided in your argument you can't even see a simple point like that. Take the listed spec's in your signature as an example: what if you backed off your FOC a bit to 22 or 20% by taking some weight off your arrow. You're not going to be losing very much, if anything, in penetration, but you will gain some speed. Speed that will make your trajectory more forgiving. You can argue until you're blue in the face that you practice a ton and that you can judge distance perfectly, but you are human and you will make mistakes, why not make your set up a bit more accommodating to those mistakes?
> 
> The irony here is that while you are arguing that being obsessed with speed is bad because you lose positives in other areas like penetration, you don't seem to see that you are equally obsessed with FOC, failing to see or admit the negatives that come with it.


What negatives are there? Better penetration? Lower chance of redirection on hard bone impact? I wanted higher mass weight than I was already shooting(above the 650gr heavy bone threshold mark), more FOC, a broadhead with a higher mechanical advantage and a stronger insert design than my VAP build. I also have a balanced and more durable arrow build that will spine properly for my bow using this much weight forward and a better penetrating broadhead than I had prior. I was already shooting 620gr at 262fps and added 132gr using a stronger overall arrow build and only lost 23fps. Why back it off a little? I'd be where I was before, the higher you go in mass weight the greater the efficiency minimizes the loss of speed. 

I was shooting 259fps with my Z7 in 2009, much slower I'm sure with my Switchback before that and who knows what with my first bow a 60lb Darton Titan. I don't need more forgiving trajectory with something I can handle already. The difference between myself and many others is I've actually tried shooting these different weight arrows to see for myself what I can shoot effectively and accurately. I'm not pro shooter and I don't practice every day but I do enough to hold my own. This setup is built to handle mistakes regardless of where I hit. The point is to make an entrance and an exit hole and this arrow should help raise the odds of that happening in all situations. There's no guarantee's in this sport but upping the odds in my favor will greatly increase my effectiveness to make a quick clean kill.

What you don't realize by making that statement is that there's a lot more to enhancing penetration than just FOC or just any one area. Give it a look: http://tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/2007 Update, Part 8.pdf I've enhanced every area for my build because I wanted to, not because I was worried what the light arrow/low foc/expandable broadhead/ozonics/bait pile/deer drive/fanboy/speed freak etc etc etc guys on archerytalk would think. That's what this thread was for, the people that WANT TO SHOOT THESE ARROWS to share information on them, not to waste time explaining to those that don't why they do or arguing their benefits. 

Just because you mentioned it, the reason I tried to add as much FOC as possible was from Ashby's studies showing that every 1% FOC gained over 19% showed at least 2.4% penetration increase using his traditional equipment(page 8). http://tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby ours/2008 Update, Part 6.pdf I'm pretty sure with my bow's MUCH higher stored energy that amount will be drastically increased. So while keeping the arrow in the correct spine range, adding more will only help exponentially while still keeping me in a weight range I can handle and not losing a lot of speed from where I was already at. FOC also maximizes the effects of other penetration factors shown by Ashby's test between low and high FOC and changing other variables. I wanted an extreme build and that is what I hopefully have. Nobody is slamming it down anyone's throat they have to shoot what I am or anyone in here.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

swany10 said:


> I have some gold tip velocity 300's that are cut to 29.5 inches. How much weight can I add to the front of the arrow before I have to worry about being under spined? I haven't seen much info on that. Right now I've got a 455 grain total weight arrow with a 100 grain head, and a 11.4 grain insert with a 50 grain weight added to it. Thanks to my heavy 25 grain lighted nocks I'm only at about 12.5% measured FOC, though the gold tip calc says I should be over 13%. Playing around with the gold tip calculator I can get my FOC to 19.76% if I remove my lighted nock and go back to the acculite nocks (8.3gr), change to 125 grain heads, and add another 50 gr insert weight, for a total arrow weight of about 510 gr. All this would be really easy to do so I'm thinking of trying it out, but I don't know if that much weight, 236.4 grains, all the way up front would make me under spined. Any help?
> 
> It looks like there are some people on this thread with a very similar arrow build and it's working for them, but I'd still like to see some guidelines for the arrow length/spine/tip weight relationship.


Your best bet as I tell everybody who pm's me with these questions is just to download OnTarget2 and play with all the specs to find what should spine properly for you before you buy. You still need to shoot and test the arrows after for correct spine via bare shaft tuning and getting your broadheads to group with field points as it is only a guideline. I have found it to be extremely accurate though.


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

sethro02 said:


> I'd stop at adding 125 grain head. That's gonna put you on the low end of the "ok" zone. That 30" draw and 70# coupled with the added weight up front is about all you can do bud. Put a 125 head on and shoot. If it's irratic grouping then go back to 100. Don't go more than a 125 head


Thanks for running the numbers. At least now I know I can try the 125 heads. If i did that while leaving my lighted nocks on I'd be at 14.88% FOC 477 gr total weight according to the calculator, a good compromise I think. If I want more FOC and speed I can always ditch the lighted nocks and go back to the acculight nocks, that would put me at 16.95% FOC and 460 gr total weight, not a bad option either.


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## Jboss2 (Jul 12, 2010)

Henro, what set up would you run out of a full throttle at 28/70???


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

henro said:


> What negatives are there? Better penetration? Lower chance of redirection on hard bone impact? I wanted higher mass weight than I was already shooting(above the 650gr heavy bone threshold mark), more FOC, a broadhead with a higher mechanical advantage and a stronger insert design than my VAP build. I also have a balanced and more durable arrow build that will spine properly for my bow using this much weight forward and a better penetrating broadhead than I had prior. I was already shooting 620gr at 262fps and added 132gr using a stronger overall arrow build and only lost 23fps. Why back it off a little? I'd be where I was before, the higher you go in mass weight the greater the efficiency minimizes the loss of speed.
> 
> I was shooting 259fps with my Z7 in 2009, much slower I'm sure with my Switchback before that and who knows what with my first bow a 60lb Darton Titan. I don't need more forgiving trajectory with something I can handle already. The difference between myself and many others is I've actually tried shooting these different weight arrows to see for myself what I can shoot effectively and accurately. I'm not pro shooter and I don't practice every day but I do enough to hold my own. This setup is built to handle mistakes regardless of where I hit. The point is to make an entrance and an exit hole and this arrow should help raise the odds of that happening in all situations. There's no guarantee's in this sport but upping the odds in my favor will greatly increase my effectiveness to make a quick clean kill.
> 
> ...


You have to admit that there is a negative effect on trajectory, and that's a major factor in range estimation error forgiveness. It sounds like you've put a lot of time and effort into your arrow build, and I think it's a pretty cool example of an extreme build. I wish I had the time and funds to explore the limits of what I'd find acceptable to shoot like that. I'm trying to do what I can to increase FOC with the arrows I have for now, but it looks like I'm nearing the end of what I can do (14.88% FOC with a lighted nock, 16.95% without) . I just started to look into it this summer after buying lighted nocks and noticing how bad my FOC would be on a calculator, so I'm still learning. I don't think I'll get to that 19% mark though, I just can't get over the speed drop myself. If only someone made an 8 gpi micro diameter arrow with a .200 spine, then I could have it all, haha.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

swany10 said:


> You have to admit that there is a negative effect on trajectory, and that's a major factor in range estimation error forgiveness. It sounds like you've put a lot of time and effort into your arrow build, and I think it's a pretty cool example of an extreme build. I wish I had the time and funds to explore the limits of what I'd find acceptable to shoot like that. I'm trying to do what I can to increase FOC with the arrows I have for now, but it looks like I'm nearing the end of what I can do (14.88% FOC with a lighted nock, 16.95% without) . I just started to look into it this summer after buying lighted nocks and noticing how bad my FOC would be on a calculator, so I'm still learning. I don't think I'll get to that 19% mark though, I just can't get over the speed drop myself. If only someone made an 8 gpi arrow with a .200 spine, then I could have it all, haha.


Do yourself a favor and go shoot a heavier arrow that's spined properly if you haven't already. If you haven't, try a variety of weight ranges. It sounds like you have misconceptions about how bad trajectory is affected and should surprise you.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

henro said:


> Do yourself a favor and go shoot a heavier arrow that's spined properly if you haven't already. If you haven't, try a variety of weight ranges. It sounds like you have misconceptions about how bad trajectory is affected and should surprise you.


He just said that he didn't have the "time or funds" to "try a variety of weight ranges".

Slow down and read the post before replying. You will be able to give better advice that is less emotional. Much more useful.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> He just said that he didn't have the "time or funds" to "try a variety of weight ranges".
> 
> Slow down and read the post before replying. You will be able to give better advice that is less emotional. Much more useful.


I read what he posted and I call BS to anyone shooting a Carbon Matrix not having the funds to buy a couple single arrows from Lancaster. The reply is valid and he might actually learn something from it. It doesn't take forever and a day to do something like that. God forbid he'd be able to form his own opinion based on experience after that.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

henro said:


> I read what he posted and I call BS to anyone shooting a Carbon Matrix not having the funds to buy a couple single arrows from Lancaster. The reply is valid and he might actually learn something from it. It doesn't take forever and a day to do something like that. God forbid he'd be able to form his own opinion based on experience after that.


Oh, he's learning...


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Seriously, you guys need to try shooting a real heavy, high FOC arrow and see how much trajectory changes. It is not as bad as you think. For me, it didn't change anything until about 25 yards, and then it was only 1.5 inches, and I don't shoot past 30 anyway. If I had a longer draw and a new bow, I bet it would be even further. With the advent of multiple pins and rangefinders, who cares? (and I use a single pin with no rangefinder.) 

When people shoot with me they feel my arrow, look at the size of my field tip and think I am freaking nuts. Then the see the difference in the energy imparted to the target and the difference in penetration and they stop laughing and start asking questions. You just have to try it. :darkbeer:


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

here this vid will show all the doubters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjZH5Nx38wc


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## swany10 (Mar 9, 2012)

henro said:


> I read what he posted and I call BS to anyone shooting a Carbon Matrix not having the funds to buy a couple single arrows from Lancaster. The reply is valid and he might actually learn something from it. It doesn't take forever and a day to do something like that. God forbid he'd be able to form his own opinion based on experience after that.


Sure, I had the time and money back when I bought the carbon matrix well over two years ago. Back then I was living alone, now I have a fiancee and a wedding to pay and help plan for in the spring. Get off your high horse you troll.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> here this vid will show all the doubters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjZH5Nx38wc


Did you happen to notice that from a Hooter Shooter the heaviest arrow was off line? Shoot this high FOC if you like- but i've done it and its more critical as this vid illustrates- losing line from a hooter shooter even.
Hey, if you are shooting short shots, its not a horrible idea to shoot ultra heavy- just at the edge of what works best for the avg guy. so shoot what makes you feel good. 

Interesting how he proved the point I was making about slightly heavier arrow being a good compromise of trajectory and added penetration with almost no sacrifice- thx for posting


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

The reason why the 315gr head started moving offline is due to the fact that arrow was way under spined at 29" long from a 70# bow. The 65/80 pound rating means nothing with that much weight on the front. He needed to cut the arrow shorter or jump to a stiffer spine for using that head. This had nothing to do with the FOC. You have to TUNE your bow and arrow combo not just throw a head on and go. Period.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Jboss2 said:


> Henro, what set up would you run out of a full throttle at 28/70???


Probably same setup I have now. The draw gives up 10fps compared to me at 29" but the IBO is rated 10fps higher than my MR5 so it should even out. I don't know how efficient that bow is compared to the MR5 with heavy arrows so you'd have to test to verify but it should work.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> The reason why the 315gr head started moving offline is due to the fact that arrow was way under spined at 29" long from a 70# bow. The 65/80 pound rating means nothing with that much weight on the front. He needed to cut the arrow shorter or jump to a stiffer spine for using that head. This had nothing to do with the FOC. You have to TUNE your bow and arrow combo not just throw a head on and go. Period.


Exactly. That's a .330 spine shaft and changing from 100gr to 315gr head weight will change the dynamic spine drastically. Makes me even more confident in my earlier statement beendare doesn't know how to build a proper high foc arrow.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Even if it was the .250 spine. Tossing on a 315 grain head with a length of 29" is asking a bit much from a 70# destroyer.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Kaizoku said:


> The reason why the 315gr head started moving offline is due to the fact that arrow was way under spined at 29" long from a 70# bow. The 65/80 pound rating means nothing with that much weight on the front. He needed to cut the arrow shorter or jump to a stiffer spine for using that head. This had nothing to do with the FOC. You have to TUNE your bow and arrow combo not just throw a head on and go. Period.


This is the problem with so many setups.
They don't look at the total properly.
The might believe that a heavier arrow is good to have for penetration.
Then they add weight at the front without considering the risk of getting a spine that is to weak and says adding weight is crap as they lose accuracy and/or gain nothing when it comes to penetration and say they have proven that we are wrong.
The same goes for many trying to increase their foc.

If people had bought arrows with the spine on the stiff side, instead of chasing a few fps by getting the "perfect" spine for one broadhead weight, they would have much more to go on to build a better working arrow.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

ttt


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Kaizoku and Norwegian woods made good points with both of their statements. The demonstration in the video was just to show that point weight doesn't affect your trajectory as much as most people think it would. Anytime you up your weight up front you have to compensate with making shaft stiffness adjustments. You can't just throw more weight up front on the same shaft and shoot it


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Kaizoku said:


> The reason why the 315gr head started moving offline is due to the fact that arrow was way under spined at 29" long from a 70# bow. The 65/80 pound rating means nothing with that much weight on the front. He needed to cut the arrow shorter or jump to a stiffer spine for using that head. This had nothing to do with the FOC. You have to TUNE your bow and arrow combo not just throw a head on and go. Period.





bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Kaizoku and Norwegian woods made good points with both of their statements. The demonstration in the video was just to show that point weight doesn't affect your trajectory as much as most people think it would. Anytime you up your weight up front you have to compensate with making shaft stiffness adjustments. You can't just throw more weight up front on the same shaft and shoot it


Ahhh, but it has everything to do with FOC.
I've played with different setups up to 30% FOC.....getting into that higher Extreme FOC range makes the arrow less stable. You are putting a lot of weight on the end to get to that EFOC- of course its going to destabilize the arrow when flexing on the release. Now can you work up an arrow that will fly- sure, I've done it myself. But I also found in shooting these EFOC arrows that they are very unforgiving of a minor form error- such as in a hunting situation. We know that our release/form/ shot execution might not be as good as a Hooter Shooter in a hunting situation, very few can replicate the 'perfect' form' of a HS. Thats why Easton recommends a balanced arrow.

That video was a great illustration of my point....that avg range [a bit higher than the avg hunter here shoots I'm sure] shoot well and going up in weight a little doesn't really hurt your accuracy/trajectory. Going to the extreme is a serious change in trajectory...and destabilizes your arrow even if you have perfect form.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Beendare said:


> Ahhh, but it has everything to do with FOC.
> I've played with different setups up to 30% FOC.....getting into that higher Extreme FOC range makes the arrow less stable. You are putting a lot of weight on the end to get to that EFOC- of course its going to destabilize the arrow when flexing on the release. Now can you work up an arrow that will fly- sure, I've done it myself. But I also found in shooting these EFOC arrows that they are very unforgiving of a minor form error- such as in a hunting situation. We know that our release/form/ shot execution might not be as good as a Hooter Shooter in a hunting situation, very few can replicate the 'perfect' form' of a HS. Thats why Easton recommends a balanced arrow.
> 
> That video was a great illustration of my point....that avg range [a bit higher than the avg hunter here shoots I'm sure] shoot well and going up in weight a little doesn't really hurt your accuracy/trajectory. Going to the extreme is a serious change in trajectory...and destabilizes your arrow even if you have perfect form.


Post the arrow and bow specs you built. I'm guessing they were all underspined. When the spine is correct to compensate for the extra weight up front they are no less forgiving.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

This is a long quote but something that should help some of you that comes from this link(http://tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/Ashby Prologue, 2007 Updates-1.pdf): 

"Understanding FOC
By Dr. Ed Ashby

In the aftermath of the last series of Study Updates many questions were received regarding arrow FOC. There's no doubt significant interest in FOC exist, as well as much confusion.

What is FOC; what does FOC do; how much FOC is needed; how and why does FOC affect tissue penetration; and what method of measuring FOC is “correct”? Questions regarding the FOC testing have become too numerous to answer individually. About here, I must point out that I'm far from a definitive source on the precise technicalities of FOC aerodynamics – but I have learned a bit about what it is and what it does to arrow flight and, as you'll see in the upcoming Updates, a lot about how, why and how-much it affects a hunting arrow's penetration in tissues.

Hopefully this prologue will provide sufficient introduction to FOC to assist those interested in understanding the upcoming Update information.

Extreme FOC has turned out to be one of the most important penetration factors; one substantially affecting the amount of tissue penetration your
hunting arrow can achieve. The first two 2007 Updates address areas not directly related to FOC, but from Part 3 onward understanding what FOC is, and how it works, becomes important.

You may find it helpful to reread this prologue at that point. Though earlier testing had indicated Extreme FOC was very important, the exact degree of that effect could not be quantified because of the measurement constraints of the offside rib penetration-barrier and the limits of measurable penetration. In the more recent testing a bow of lesser draw weight was employed. I was prepared for FOC test results to show a marked penetration benefit, but I was not prepared for the profound implications they would have, especially for those using lighter draw-weight bows for their hunting.

Though the Study's definitions for the different degrees of FOC have been stated previously, I'll reiterate them.

"Normal FOC" is defined as any amount up to 12%. From 12% to 19% is Study-defined as "High FOC". FOC from 19% upwards is defined as "Extreme FOC".

Now let's set the stage for the new Updates by taking a look at what FOC is all about.

FOC Doesn't Mean the Same Thing to Everyone What Does FOC stand for? It's an abbreviation for “Forward of Center”, but archers commonly use it as a total replacement for the entire phrase “weight forward of center”.

What does weight forward of center mean? The routinely encountered answer among archers is: FOC represents how far forward an arrow’s balance point is from the midpoint of the shaft … or the mid-point of the arrow’s total length; and we'll discuss that definition-difference a bit later. In archery, FOC is specified as a ratio of the location of the arrow's balancepoint to the shaft’s (or arrow’s) mid-point, expressed as a
percentage.

The above definition is sufficiently correct for the common uses archers apply FOC to. However, for the discussions that follow we also need to state the true, precise definition of FOC: For projectiles in flight, FOC represents what percent a projectile’s gravitational balance point is forward of the projectile’s center of pressure (CP).

What the heck is the CP? The CP is that exact point where the maximum 'bending force' is exerted upon a projectile during its flight. Note that this true FOC definition relates only to a projectile in flight, and expresses a relationship between the gravitational balance point and the resultant center of pressure of all forces acting on the projectile as it flies through any given medium. Also note that there's no mention of
any projectile 'length' in this definition. Additionally, keep in mind that your arrow is still 'flying' during penetration; all that's changed is the density of the medium(s) it's 'flying through'.

The CP of an object in flight is dynamic, and is constantly changing as propulsion forces, resistance forces and forces exerted by moving air currents change. For convenience, the 'practical purpose' formula(s) we archers use merely assumes the CP to be at the shaft's (or arrow's) mid-point. Why we do that is coming up shortly.

Note very carefully that the CP (and the genuine amount of FOC) does not - in any manner whatsoever - reflect the point of greatest projectile flex. It indicates the point upon which the greatest flexional force is exerted, not the point of greatest flex. The point of greatest flex depends not only upon the forces encountered in flight (and launch) but also on the projectile's structural design and the material(s) from which
the projectile is made.

The design (profile) of your arrow shaft and the material it's made from affects both CP location and where the shaft will flex most; which are not necessarily the same point. For example, take two cedar shafts of equal mass and stiffness; one parallel and one tapered. Mount identical points on each and each will show a different CP and a different point of maximumflex when shot from the same bow.

Similarly, shafts having identical profiles can be made of different materials. When shot by that same shooter from that same bow, each will again show a different CP and point of maximum-flex; and this is most pronounced during launch and while the arrow is in paradox. During launch and paradox the flexional characteristics of the material becomes a major factor in the location of the arrow's CP and point of maximum
flex at any given instant; as do several other influencing factors, like the amount of your bow's center-shot and the quality of your release. For a given bow and shooter, the design of the arrow and material(s) its made from determines both the arrow's CP and where, and to what degree, the arrow shaft flexes during the shot-sequence and ensuing flight … and also during impact and penetration. Is precise FOC measurement critical? Well, yes; if you're trying to calculate a trajectory to guide a missile to a pinpoint target from 2000 miles away, or design an F22 Raptor
that can change directions on a dime and darned near fly laterally! For archers, no, precise measurement is not all that critical. All we require is a relative reference point.

However, in order to understand Extreme FOC's affects on both arrow flight and arrow penetration you do need to know and understand that an arrow's true FOC is not the same as the 'relative FOC' archers normally discuss; and you need to know what the difference between the two is.

Why do we need a FOC reference point? What does it do for us? Think of FOC as indicating the arrow’s fulcrum point; the point around which it rotates up, down, left, right or obliquely when a force is applied on either end of the arrow.

The further forward the fulcrum point is, the longer the fletching's fulcrum arm (lever). Note that this represents the 'rearward lever arm'. There's also a forward lever arm, and we'll talk more about it shortly - because it's the one that's most important from time of arrow impact onwards."


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

"The further forward the fulcrum point is, the longer the fletching's fulcrum arm (lever). Note that this represents the 'rearward lever arm'. There's also a forward lever arm, and we'll talk more about it shortly - because it's the one that's most important from time of arrow impact onwards.

The most important concept for you to understand is that, as with any lever system, the longer one lever arm is in relation to the other, the less pressure you have to apply on the 'long arm' to exert a given amount of force - or cause a given amount of movement - at the short-arm end. Conversely, it takes more pressure on the short arm's end to generate either a given amount of force or movement at the long arm's end.

The longer the rear lever arm, the more pressure a given amount of fletching can exert on your arrow; increasing fletching's control (its degree of stabilizing effect). You can also think of this the other way around; the longer the rear lever-arm, the less fletching you need to exert a given amount of stabilizing force on your arrow. The bottom line is the same: Having higher FOC makes fletching’s job easier, and results in greater stability during flight with any given amount of fletching.

Don't confuse the point of lateral, vertical and oblique rotation with the rotational rate of your arrow; they're two distinctly different things. You can change the point of lateral, vertical and oblique rotation without affecting the rate the arrow revolves around its lengthwise axis during flight. Changing FOC won't alter how fast your arrow revolves as if flies downrange.

Using archery's 'common definition' for FOC gives us an easy way to 'rank' the amount of fletching's rear-leaver. If, for any reason, you wish or need to alter your arrow's steering arm, FOC provided a reference point telling you 'where you are', 'which direction you're going', and 'how much change you’ve made'. For eons this has been the major application to which arrow FOC has been applied. To understand FOC's effect on
arrow penetration requires we expand how we think of FOC, but there's more to discuss before we get to that.

What's the “correct way" to measure my arrow's FOC? The AMO Standard FOC measurement uses shaft-length; ignoring insert, taper and tip (broadhead) length. The other commonly used formula employs the arrow's overall length; including the insert, taper and tip. Which is “correct”? Neither. True FOC is based on the center of pressure. We merely simulate the CP location in both formulas. The AMO formula was adopted as
'standard' merely because, between the two commonly used formulas it uses a simulation point nearer the actual CP location for most commonly used target arrows during flight through air.Just as it is with static spine, the FOC 'number' we use is definitive of absolutely nothing about our arrow's flight. The commonly used static spine and FOC 'numbers' merely allow us to make a relative comparison of one arrow to another; nothing more. For example, static spine measures relative stiffness of a shaft; how much it flexes when a weight of specified mass is suspended mid-way between two shaft supporting points; which are located a specified distance apart. Everything about the measurement is relative, not absolute.

Static spine tells you nothing at all about an arrow’s dynamic spine – how it will react when you shoot it off your individual bow. If you doubt that, perfectly tune an arrow from a true center-shot bow and then measure its static spine on your spine tester. Now take that same arrow and shoot it from a non-center-shot bow (one with a peg rest – no arrow shelf at all) of equal draw weight. What happens? The arrow will shoot massively strong-spine. The arrow hasn't changed; the launchforce
and power stroke are the same; and the shaft's static spine hasn't changed. However, the shaft's dynamic spine is now no longer anywhere close to correct, and it no longer shoots where you're aiming. 

All static-spine indicates is the relative stiffness of the shaft. What it does do is provide you a reference point. This helps whenever you need to find a stiffer or softer spine in order to get your arrow to shoot well from your bow. This is all it does; nothing else. It merely allows you to compare shafts relative to each other, so you can tell which one is 'stiffer' and which one is 'weaker'. Static spine's 'relativity' is precisely why it's necessary to tune your arrow to your bow in order to get correct arrow flight.

No static measurement or calculation contends with the myriad variables encountered when you shoot an arrow from your bow. This is why, besides charts, Easton publishes 35 instructional pages on selecting 'the right arrow' after you’ve used their 'static-spine' charts to find a 'starting place'. No chart provides a magic number saying, “Pick me. I’m the right one!”

Commonly used FOC measurements are exactly the same; they are relative. Neither formula is “correct”, nor is either “wrong”. Each serves its purpose equally well; providing a reference point. As long as you know which formula was applied to a given arrow to determine its 'relative FOC', you can duplicate results. If you prefer, you can re-measure and state the arrow's FOC in the other format; that’s perfectly alright.

It still provides you a 'relative reference'. For practical applications, either commonly used FOC formula works equally well. Just remain aware that neither genuinely tells you anything at all that's 'precise' about an arrow's true FOC. However, for a given arrow design, when you commonly measured' FOC goes up the true FOC also goes up; but the amount we've 'measured' won't indicate the actual amount of change in true FOC. The single most important thing to remember is that the 'relative measurement' method you use should always be stated, so everyone is “reading off the same page” when making comparisons, or trying to duplicate results.

How much FOC does my arrow need to have? The range of FOC classically recommended for different forms of archery varies. In their charts Easton shows the following recommended FOC guidelines; which have been around for many, many years. The calculations are based on the AMO Standard formula:
o FITA (Olympic Style) Archery 11% to 16%
o 3-D Archery 6% to 12%
o Field Archery 10% to 15%
o Hunting 10% to 15%

FITA shooters, who compete at the longest ranges, use the highest average amount of FOC; 3-D shooters the lowest; with field archers and hunters in-between.

Why do FITA shooters prefer a higher amount of FOC than most other target archers? They are seeking precision long range accuracy. To obtain this their arrows must be very stable in flight. High FOC allows them to achieve the level of stabilization they require from relative smaller fletching.

Smaller fletching offers a lower drag factor, and is less subject to the effects of cross-winds than larger fletching.

These factors all become important at the extreme ranges at which FITA shooters compete.

It's also relevant to note how FOC affects an airplane's 'handling'. An airplane with high FOC flies very stable; the lower the FOC, the more maneuverable the plane, but the harder it is to control. Indeed, as a plane's FOC gets very low (such as that of the F22) it becomes incredibly maneuverable, but so difficult to control that no pilot can fly it without computer assistance.

Now relate FOC effects on an airplane's handling to your arrow. You want your hunting arrow to be as stable as possible in flight. High mobility; easily achieved changes in direction of flight; is precisely what you don't want in your arrows.

This implies that you want as much 'true FOC' as possible; within the limits allowed by design and materials.

If high FOC is desirable why are the recommended amounts of arrow FOC not simply "as much as you can get"? FOC measurements have been around in archery a long, long time and, as noted, their major application has been in determining how much fletching you're required to have in order to get adequate arrow stability in flight. 

There is much historical precedence for this application. However, those historic precedents were limited by the amount of FOC easily achievable with the materials commonly available. The availability of carbon shafting, in particular, has created an abundance of new possibilities. Carbon behaves differently than other shaft materials.

Carbon shafts offer great stiffness at low mass, with forgiving flexional characteristics. They permit unprecedented amounts of FOC, with exceptional flight; and it's easily
achieved. Possibilities in arrow design have changed, and the 'common knowledge' rules aren't nearly as simple or clear-cut as they once were; but 'common knowledge' dies harder than a frog in mud.

What's the lowest FOC usable? It's possible to use arrows with slight amounts of negative FOC, and some flight shooters use these. Negative FOC can be made to work whenever drag force is sufficient to prevent the arrow swapping-ends in flight, but the flight of such arrows is very sensitive to all factors affecting their flight; just like that F22, they are 'highly maneuverable'.

Currently, most flight shooters still lean towards use of neutral to very low amounts of FOC. They feel low FOC arrows maintain a 'nose up' attitude longer, providing longer flight; but contrast this with the staggering number of flight records that are currently being systematically demolished by O. L. and Juli Adcock using very high FOC flight arrows. The 'common knowledge' concepts of flight arrow FOC, which have also existed for many, many decades, are being very successfully dismantled.

A hands-on look at flight shooting also provides some interesting insights into FOC's characteristics. Go to any flight shoot and watch what's happening. You'll see an extreme dispersion of impact (distance wise) among the shooters using very low or negative FOC arrows. This is often as much as sixty to a hundred yards, from shot to shot. Compare that with the consistency of distance the shooters using high FOC flight arrows are getting, shooting under the same conditions. Their arrows will be tightly nestled, often within a ten yard spread … and they're smashing existing distance records with that same degree of consistency!

For those who content that arrows with high amounts of FOC 'nose over' faster, and show more drop than matching arrows having 'normal' amounts of FOC, there are a few points about these clearly observable distance and consistency 'outcomes' worth pondering. If Extreme FOC arrows 'drop faster', why are they shooting farther than the neutral and low FOC arrows?

My experience has been that the Extreme FOC test arrows appear to shoot somewhat flatter than the precisely matching mass and profile normal FOC arrows I've set up for comparison penetration testing; at least across distances that are more that double that of my self-imposed animal-shooting distance.

This, I think, is because the Extreme FOC arrows are recovering from paradox faster; conserving arrow energy otherwise wasted during paradox - which also means they are flying-straight sooner, dropping arrow-drag to its 'normal level' faster and conserving even more arrow energy.

FOC and the Hunting Arrow
What does all this have to do with hunting arrows? At the very minimum hunters need a fair amount of arrow FOC; higher than that required to reach the minimum level of stability needed to achieve constant flight from any target arrow. Why?

Because broadheads exert a steering effect upon the arrow, due to wind-shear. Fletching must overcome these 'wind-plane' forces. If you want to see how substantial a broadhead's windsheer effect is, try a few bare-shaft shots with broadheads; but do so in a very safe area, and with a HUGE backstop! Your hunting arrow's fletching has a lot of 'deviating forces' to overcome, and high amounts of FOC means fletching has a longer 'lever', giving it more steering control; a very desirable hunting arrow feature.

You should also consider that the shorter the arrow you shoot, the higher the FOC of your hunting arrow should be – or the greater the surface-area of fletching you'll need. Shorter arrows are inherently less stable in flight than longer arrows, simply because of their physically shorter rear 'steering arm'.

With any given amount of FOC and fletching, the greater rear lever of longer arrows allows the fletching to exert more pressure. A finger release also adds to arrow instability, especially in initial flight. Here too high FOC is beneficial (as is 'more fletching'); and it becomes of greater importance the shorter your arrow is.

OK, so FOC's longer lever arm allows fletching to exert more stabilizing effect, but what led to FOC's inclusion as a tissue penetration factor? Many folks hunting with Extreme FOC arrows reported conspicuous penetration increases, and this deserved formal evaluation. Extreme FOC was added as a factor for evaluation to see if it really did have any effect on tissue penetration and, if so, how great an influence it showed. Field test have confirmed the reports. Extreme FOC arrows do show significantly reater tissue penetration, when all else is equal. The frequency, consistency and magnitude of test results are far too extensive for one to conclude otherwise.

Why do Extreme FOC arrows give more tissue penetration?
They encounter lower resistance. The reduced resistance results from less shaft-flex on impact. Prior testing has shown shaft flex increases shaft-drag, and shaft-drag has been shown to be a major resistance factor influencing tissue penetration.

How do Extreme FOC arrows achieve this reduction in shaft flex? Shaft flex is related to CP location, relative to the arrow’s center of mass. Extreme FOC means your arrow now has a very short forward lever arm. The shorter this lever arm, the less the shaft flexes when any given level of resistance force is applied at the arrow’s tip.
Now let's look at exactly how FOC achieves its effect on hunting arrow penetration. High arrow FOC has at least two characteristics which greatly reduce the amount of shaft flex on impact. These are: (1) Less arrow mass is towards the rear, reducing the force with which the arrow’s rear 'pushes' on the shaft.

To see this clearly, take a slender shaft and securely glue a brick to one end; with a big glob of something like JB Weld. Now place the other end of the shaft (the one without the brick) on the floor. Unless you keep the shaft absolutely perpendicular to the floor, the shaft flexes."


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

"Next, bump the shaft against the floor. Even when it is held perpendicular to the floor the shaft flexes at impact. The collision forces are required to go somewhere. The resultant force-vectors between floor-impact and the 'push' exerted by whatever mass (weight) is at the shaft's rear must either compress the shaft linearly or be redirected, causing shaftflex.

Shafts don't show much linear compression. On forceful frontal impacts they crack, split or break before compressing any significant amount.

Now reverse the shaft, placing the brick on the floor. The shaft does not flex. Bump it up and down as forcefully as you like. Shaft flex is scarcely visible, regardless of how hard the impact. This is a drastic example of one effect high FOC has on shaft-flex during direct impact, and clearly demonstrates what happens.

(2) Extreme FOC arrows concentrate arrow mass far forward. The forward lever arm is short. This means the dynamic center of pressure at impact is also far forward. This is important on all impacts, and becomes especially important whenever your arrow's impact is at any angle other than perpendicular.

To understand how this short forward lever affects shaftflex, think of the distance from arrow tip to CP as being a short section of shaft; the shorter the section, the stiffer the shaft. The stiffer it is, the less it flexes.

To observe this effect, let's use the same slender shaft and brick. Hold the shaft near mid-point and turn it so that the shaft is not vertical.

Note the amount the shaft bends.

Without changing the angle at which the shaft is held, shorten the 'forward lever' by holding the shaft closer to the brick. This moves the CP closer to the front; where the greatest mass is located. The shaft flexes less. The closer you move your hand to the brick, the less the brick’s 'given force' flexes the shaft.

We all know that a shaft becomes stiffer as it gets shorter, but why? It gets 'stiffer' simply because we've moved the center of pressure closer to the center of mass. Where's the major force exerted on our hunting arrow during impact and penetration? It's located between the point of resistance (our broadhead) and the position of the arrow's center of mass. The further forward that mass, the shorter the shaft section between the two.

The shorter your arrow's forward lever arm, the less shaft flex you'll have on any impact. This means less of your arrow's force is used up needlessly in flexing the shaft and the reduced shaft vibration also lowers resistance as the shaft passes through the tissues. Both of these factors conserve arrow force, providing more 'useful' arrow force (momentum) that can be applied to arrow penetration.

Another, and perhaps simpler, way to visualize this effect is to lay a piece of string on a table and stretch it out straight. Put your finger somewhere near the middle of the string. The string represents your arrow shaft and your finger represents the arrow's center of mass. Now try pushing the string. What happens? The portion of string that's forward of your finger 'bends'; it flexes. Why? Because the 'stiffness' of
the string forward of your finger is not sufficient to overcome the resistance between the string and resistance force; in this case, the string's friction against table's surface.

Next, move your finger 'forward', placing it very near - but not immediately at - the end of the string. Again push the string. Now the string's 'forward lever' is shorter, and the string 'bends' a lesser amount.

Now put your finger at the string's very front end and move the string forward. What happens? The string follows quietly along behind the 'center of mass' that's now pulling it. By placing your finger on the very front of the string you've reduced the forward lever arm to zero, and there's no 'shaft flex' at all. The only difference between the string's flexion and that the shaft of your hunting arrow will show on impact - and during penetration - is the degree of flex.

Having high amounts of arrow FOC has other advantages for the bowhunter too. When all else is equal, it means faster recovery from paradox. That, in turn, means the arrow is 'flying straight' in a shorter time; closer to its departure from the bow. On close-range shots this means less shaft-flex at impact, and more penetration. The affect of paradox on arrow penetration is easy to see. All you need to do is shoot a few
arrows into your broadhead target at very close range and compare the penetration to that they show at a somewhat longer range. The greater the arrow's paradox at impact the less the penetration, and difference can be huge!

Do you remember what was said earlier; that it takes more pressure on the end of the fulcrum's short arm to generate any given amount of force or movement at the end of the fulcrum's long-arm? This means that the higher your arrow's FOC the less affected it is by your broadhead's wind-sheer effect. That makes getting perfect flight with broadheads easier because, regardless of the broadhead's shape, the effect of whatever sheer effect it exhibits is now lessened in degree. It's harder for the broadhead to steer the arrow's rear end.

Another closely related advantage is, just as for the FITA shooters, having very high amounts of arrow FOC means a longer steering arm for the fletching. For the hunter, this means he can use less fletching to stabilize his broadhead tipped arrow equally well; with any given broadhead. Less fletching means less drag as the arrow flies downrange. This means a bit more retained force (momentum) at impact.

Having less fletching on your hunting arrow also means less crosswind effect on the arrow; just as it does for the FITA shooters. That's sometimes important when hunting windy, open-country. If you've hunted much in eastern Wyoming, North Dakota, West Texas or the artic tundra, you'll KNOW exactly what I mean!

Less fletching also means a slight reduction in arrow noise during flight; but I doubt it is significant. Fletching shape has much more effect on arrow noise than does its surface area. (As an aside, I worked on American Indian Reservations for eleven years. A centenarian Sioux once told me that owl feathers made arrows fly quieter than any other feather and were always the preferred choice for deer and elk arrows. I've never had a chance to check that out!)

The effects of Extreme FOC on arrow penetration represent the major portion of the Study Updates which follow. Though this prologue doesn't come close to covering everything about FOC, it is hoped the forgoing will help clarify FOC; how it is used and some of the major benefits it offers the bowhunter. I fervently hope it will help the reader understand the 'why' behind many of the test results; and I think most will be surprised by just how important Extreme FOC's penetration effects can be for bowhunters.

For those interested, here’s the AMO Standard Formula for measuring an arrow's relative FOC:
(1) Measure shaft length; bottom of the nock’s throat to the most rearward portion of the broadhead taper.
(2) With tip mounted, determine the balance point by balancing the arrow on a knife edge. Mark this balance point.
(3) Measure balance point distance; from the bottom of the knock’s throat to the balance point.
(4) Divide balance point distance by shaft length. This gives the decimal equivalent of the balance point’s percentage relative to shaft length.
(5) From this quotient subtract 0.50, the decimal equivalent of 50%.
(6) Convert the resultant decimal fraction to percent by multiplying by 100 (or simply moving the decimal point two places to the right). This gives the percent FOC.

If you wish to use the alternate common method for measuring your arrow's relative FOC, merely substitute total arrow length for shaft length. The answer will be different; but the arrow will still be the same! If, however, you wish to compare the FOC of your arrows to those in the Arrow Lethality Study Updates you'll need to use the AMO Standard formula – merely because that's the one I used to get the 'relative measurements' shown.

As is the case with most arrow design factors, the measurement methods we all use are nothing more than 'numbers'.

They are relative values having little real meaning other than when comparing one arrow to another. It’s all part of the language of archery. Just so long as you know which definition from ‘archery’s dictionary’ is being used, all will work out well!"


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Here is a link to Ashby's followup on EFOC where he essentially admits to the recommended FOC percentages for best accuracy I mentioned in an earlier post. Then he goes on with his EFOC penetration study without any commentary on the effects as to accuracy.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/Ashby_EFOC.pdf

Another Ashby study on how a low energy/low poundage recurves/ longbows benefits from a heavy arrow in regards to penetration.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx



So lets consider the source, which is always a good idea in these "Tests"; *Do you think Ashby is capable of shooting 3" groups at 40 yds with his 70# longbow? Ahhh, NO! * Maybe a handful in the world who can whereas there are thousands of compound guys who can. So there is no way Ashby can tell us whether accuracy is affected at what is really a medium range shot for the above avg compound guy- in Ashby's defense,its not relevant for the avg trad shot as most aren't capable of that kind of accuracy If you are going to extrapolate the Ashby results, its important to keep them in context; Close shots with light trad equipment and penetration benefits greatly from heavy arrows. When you start talking high energy compounds- you change the dynamic


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Beendare said:


> Here is a link to Ashby's followup on EFOC where he essentially admits to the recommended FOC percentages for best accuracy I mentioned in an earlier post. Then he goes on with his EFOC penetration study without any commentary on the effects as to accuracy.
> http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/Ashby_EFOC.pdf
> 
> Another Ashby study on how a low energy/low poundage recurves/ longbows benefits from a heavy arrow in regards to penetration.
> ...


Your first link is a shortened version of what I posted. He was stating what Easton recommends not what he recommends. If you cannot understand that you need to take Reading Comprehension 101 again. The article I posted goes into much greater depth as to why.

Just because the studies helped in lower energy setups doesn't mean it won't translate over to today's bows. It will only help with the added speed and TRAJECTORY.

Let's consider this source: myself, not some pro bragging about how many trophies they've taken, a "backyard tester" as you phrased it. This was when I first started playing with higher foc setups a few years ago shooting a 591gr arrow at over 22% FOC at 80 yards for the first time: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1824030. I don't see the problem? I've had no changes in accuracy adding more weight since then. There is no stabilization issues with any of the builds I've tried so far. 

I'm still waiting for you to post what setups you've built. I'm pretty sure I know why you haven't though due to spine.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Reading these kinds of threads and debates are always a mix of education, entertainment, and frustration. The latter had me think that we should come up an unofficial way to credit the poster who adds to the confusion and frustration the most- "The Straw Man Award".

Who is this thread do you think is the most deserving? Maybe a separate thread should be starting where we could cast our vote for the user that has done the most impressive job of mis-stating his opponents arguments in a poor attempt to strengthen his own weak arguments.

IMO, the fact that a person depends on sophisms and straw man arguments to try is push his point across in a debate, is proof that this person has a weak argument to begin with. You have no facts, no data, just loud opinions an inflammatory arguments. $10 says the people making these fallacious arguments don't even realize they are doing it.

And to Beendare, NO ONE, I mean NO ONE, can shoot consistent 3" groups at 40yds with ANY trad equipment. One might get an occasional 3" group here and there, but if you could do that consistently, you'd better be collecting some big winnings form EVERY tournament you could possibly enter. Even consistent 3" groups at 20yds would be extraordinarily impressive. What's the diameter of the 5ring? 10cm (4")? You'd shoot consistent 300 scores on a 300 round, and afaik, that has not been done with any trad equipment, even with full, low poundage, oly-ilf recurve rigs.

And this accuracy question is ridiculously easy to test. I mean, seriously, anyone here who's a decent should could easily do a couple of 300 rounds, with normal foc arrows, heavy normal foc arrows, efoc arrows, over a course of a week or so, and a trend should be readily visible. It's idiotic to have a philosophical debate over something so easily empirically determined.

BM


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Aronnax said:


> Reading these kinds of threads and debates are always a mix of education, entertainment, and frustration. The latter had me think that we should come up an unofficial way to credit the poster who adds to the confusion and frustration the most- "The Straw Man Award".
> 
> Who is this thread do you think is the most deserving? Maybe a separate thread should be starting where we could cast our vote for the user that has done the most impressive job of mis-stating his opponents arguments in a poor attempt to strengthen his own weak arguments.
> 
> ...


I like this guy.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

henro said:


> I like this guy.


His name sells broadheads and his 'research' is published by an arrow vendor's website, so you're in luck. Easton, GoldTip and Carbon Express don't place any value in it but what do they know?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> His name sells broadheads and his 'research' is published by an arrow vendor's website, so you're in luck. Easton, GoldTip and Carbon Express don't place any value in it but what do they know?


I'm sorry what personal findings have you posted again? I know I've asked you and beendare repeatedly and only heard crickets... Guess those commercials with Tim Wells and the fake teeth in the caveman suit shooting dinosaurs with Rage broadheads and a stick bow really showed you a lot of scientific proof since you shoot them huh?


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

kwilson16 said:


> Easton, GoldTip and Carbon Express don't place any value in it but what do they know?


Sophism. Speaking for people and companies as if you know their opinions as fact, but don't really know for sure. Prove that they don't hold any value in it. Get written statements from their engineering departments supporting all of the claims made against EFOC and I will withdraw my comment.

BM


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Aronnax said:


> And to Beendare, NO ONE, I mean NO ONE, can shoot consistent 3" groups at 40yds with ANY trad equipment. One might get an occasional 3" group here and there, but if you could do that consistently, you'd better be collecting some big winnings form EVERY tournament you could possibly enter. Even consistent 3" groups at 20yds would be extraordinarily impressive.


Really!? "No one with any trad equipment" ....have you ever seen a FITA match??? Then there is Eagleton, Demmer, Rodgers, Potter and many others that can do it with their recurves no sights. You need to get out more. if you were referring to a hunting style wood longbow as I was...your statement would be more accurate.

I post for the guys that are capable of reasoning. So in Ashby's update #1 2008 he finds that one arrow with low FOC doesn't perform as well as the others, OK, scientific methodology right? Wrong! That one arrow is the only one with weedwhacker line in it....all others are weighted with stable media/weighted points. One arrow comparison......and the poor performing arrow has weedwhacker line inside [that twists and compresses].....now thats scientific- grin


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Beendare said:


> Really!? "No one with any trad equipment" ....have you ever seen a FITA match??? Then there is Eagleton, Demmer, Rodgers, Potter and many others that can do it with their recurves no sights. You need to get out more. if you were referring to a hunting style wood longbow as I was...your statement would be more accurate.


Who's broken the 300 mark in the recurve bare-bow category? this was a recent discussion in the trad forum and the discussion was left on the conclusion that no one has done that yet. I think the highest score on the 20yd 40cm face is in the 290's. Give some names and some official scores and I'll gladly reference your information to the competition shooters who were participating in that discussion, and concede to your point.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2357584&highlight=300

And now I have posted some evidence to support my earlier statement. Please do the same or I will be forced to play the sophism card again.

Maybe it's a question of misunderstanding. What do you mean by "3 inch groups". It can be taken many different ways, i.e.-
1- Never dropping an arrow outside of a 3" circle
2- Never dropping an arrow outside of a 3" circle but not necessarily centered on the X
3- Shooting an average size of 3" groups, some bigger, some smaller (unlikely with 5arrow groups, banging shafts spread groups)
4- Shooting sub 3" groups with some frequency, but the average group is bigger
5- Occasionally shooting a barely 3" group
etc...etc...

And I must make a correction to my earlier post. the 5 ring is 8cm, which is a touch over 3". For some reason I can never remember that. So, 5 arrows in the 5 is possible at 20yds, but I still hold that is exceptional shooting.


BM


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Beendare said:


> Really!? "No one with any trad equipment" ....have you ever seen a FITA match??? Then there is Eagleton, Demmer, Rodgers, Potter and many others that can do it with their recurves no sights. You need to get out more. if you were referring to a hunting style wood longbow as I was...your statement would be more accurate.
> 
> I post for the guys that are capable of reasoning. So in Ashby's update #1 2008 he finds that one arrow with low FOC doesn't perform as well as the others, OK, scientific methodology right? Wrong! That one arrow is the only one with weedwhacker line in it....all others are weighted with stable media/weighted points. One arrow comparison......and the poor performing arrow has weedwhacker line inside [that twists and compresses].....now thats scientific- grin


It doesn't twist and compress, they're glued in place for the most part. Does the arrow shaft itself twist and compress on the outside? I footed a VAP with one, it's actually really stiff and hard. It's in there to add weight, not to strengthen the arrow. It's surely not weakening it on the inside either, other than whatever spine change it has to which he tuned to. He never said the arrow failed structually and stated all arrows were tuned to the bow which is something I guarantee you didn't do with your supposed Ashby arrows you tried. You still have yet to post ANY data from what you yourself have used and continue to just blow over the question like kwilson. Show us what setups you yourself have tried that were proven more inaccurate or penetrated less?


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

290 on a vegas spot is pretty consistently accurate i would say- wouldn't you? 

Ashby studies points to one thing- EFOC increases penetration. I say its at the expense of accuracy. A thinking man might ask;
Is he accurate enough with his wood longbow to tell whether there is a degradation in accuracy? 
Does it matter to someone shooting a compound with energy to burn?
Is it a coincidence that the "650 challenge" is on a site thats selling ultra heavy arrows and Ashby heads?
Is it really necessary?

Hey, I like Ashby....and i think his work raising the awareness of the avg guy on the use of heavier arrows for hunting is a good thing. I just think its taking things a bit far telling guys they need a 650gr arrow for deer...


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Beendare said:


> 290 on a vegas spot is pretty consistently accurate i would say- wouldn't you?
> 
> Ashby studies points to one thing- EFOC increases penetration. I say its at the expense of accuracy. A thinking man might ask;
> Is he accurate enough with his wood longbow to tell whether there is a degradation in accuracy?
> ...


Straw man- yes, 290 on a 40cm face at 20yds is very accurate. You originally stated 3" groups at 40yds. I still hold that is impossible to do consistently, with the exception of the "lucky end". 

Straw man- " I just think its taking things a bit far telling guys they _need _a 650gr arrow for deer..." No one is saying that, that's I've heard anyway- and I've read a lot of posts on the subject. (italics added by me)

Border line sophism - "I say its at the expense of accuracy." That is your hypothesis. The rest of your philosophical discussion about the degradation of accuracy is based on the presupposition that there is in fact a degradation in accuracy. And I said before, it's super easy to test. Shoot a handful of 300 rounds with each arrow build, to be fair and unbiased, you'd need a few different archers to do the same (not saying you would cheat but humans have a tendency for confirmation bias whether conscious of it or not). I wouldn't expect you to do it in one day, I wouldn't expect anyone to do that to themselves with a hunting weight bow. Average the scores with each arrow build to average out the "good days" vs. "bad days" and see if any trends appear.

BM


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

I only have 2 data points to share. Bow in my sig. 
500 gr Easton acc pro hunters .300, used those for about 3 years. 10%FOC. 
Currently shooting gold tip velocity pro 300s w 100 gr inserts at 505gr and 17% FOC

IM far from a pro archer. But I'm not bad. I saw zero decrease in accuracy in ranges out to 80y. The gold tips actually bare shaft tuned better than the acc's. 

What I did notice was the higher FOC GT's started to drop faster than the eastons out past 60y. Both arrows shot the same speed thru the chrono and I only had to adjust my pins for 70 and 80 slightly. 

Both arrows zipped thru deer, I also haven't hit heavy bone on a big deer in a while. The GTs went thru both front leg bones of a small doe last year and buried in the dirt behind her. When I shoot on our indoor broadhead range a couple of the regulars joke that they can always tell when I'm shooting because they can't hear my bow but it sounds like a hammer is hitting the target. The GTs bury deep in the targets. No one likes to pull my arrows during our 3d tournaments either. 

I'm working on building my next set of arrows for a heavier and faster bow in the 625gr range to keep my speed up a little. The reason for the speed is kinda dumb but if I go much slower I'll lose my 80y pin as its near the bottom of my sight housing. But eh, it's my reason. 

Lots of good info on this thread with the heavier arrow builds. I appreciate the info, thanks for your time those that have experience to share


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

*What?*



Aronnax said:


> Sophism. Speaking for people and companies as if you know their opinions as fact, but don't really know for sure. Prove that they don't hold any value in it. Get written statements from their engineering departments supporting all of the claims made against EFOC and I will withdraw my comment.
> 
> BM


 So who do you think wrote the Easton tuning guide? You call me a straw man because I post what the experts at Easton recommend? So you have shot a 650gr arrow in your compound? my guess is no...but maybe.... 

I've shot heavier arrows than that...and actually killed some big critters with them unlike some that have zero experience on the topic except in their backyard....but for trying to interject some sanity to the discussion....you call me 'the straw man'?


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Beendare said:


> So who do you think wrote the Easton tuning guide? You call me a straw man because I post what the experts at Easton recommend? So you have shot a 650gr arrow in your compound? my guess is no...but maybe....
> 
> I've shot heavier arrows than that...and actually killed some big critters with them unlike some that have zero experience on the topic except in their backyard....but for trying to interject some sanity to the discussion....you call me 'the straw man'?
> View attachment 2105980
> ...


Nice ! you know what it takes to get DONE !


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## STILLhntr777 (Sep 11, 2009)

Why go 650gr if you're not hunting water buffalo or elephant or something?...


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Beendare said:


> So who do you think wrote the Easton tuning guide? You call me a straw man because I post what the experts at Easton recommend? So you have shot a 650gr arrow in your compound? my guess is no...but maybe....
> 
> I've shot heavier arrows than that...and actually killed some big critters with them unlike some that have zero experience on the topic except in their backyard....but for trying to interject some sanity to the discussion....you call me 'the straw man'?


I don't have a hat in this race either way, I just find the discussion interesting. It doesn't take big game hunting experience it identify a fallacious argument.

straw man- "but for trying to interject some sanity to the discussion" You are implying that anyone who argues in favor of EFOC is insane.

I do see, purely from an engineering and physics standpoint, the benefits of EFOC. A bow and arrow is not a magical thing, powered by the spirits of our dead ancestors. It is a simple machine, governed by some simple laws of physics.

EFOC increases the lever arm of the control end of the arrow, while decreasing the lever arm of the resisting force to the control end.
EFOC decreases the column buckling load on the arrow at impact with a solid object (lower mass shaft).
EFOC arrows also have stiffer columns, which even more resist said buckling load.
To me, that adds up to a more "forgiving" arrow in flight, and more energy delivered to the point of the arrow upon meeting a solid object.

Those benefits seem simple to understand.

The disadvantages are harder to see from a physics standpoint, but could be easily proven experimentally.
Some say EFOC arrows are harder to tune- but there are plenty of EFOC shooters that claim they are not. This could come down to the skill of the person doing the tuning.
Some say EFOC arrows "nose over" and have a poor trajectory. It is my hypotheses that people are making the incorrect correlation between heavy and light arrows, heavy arrows having the poorer trajectory due to the slower velocity when shot from the same bow, and incorrectly blaming it on EFOC. I recall one poster in this thread who claims his EFOC arrows dropped more than his "normal" arrows at a given range, though they were shot at the same velocities, as confirmed on the chrono. But he also stated the EFOC arrows were 50gr heavier. I would vote for a retest, maybe by another party. I have also read another discussion about normal FOC and EFOC crossbow bolts, where the tester found the EFOC bolts to have a higher point of impact, i.e. flatter trajectory, than the normal bolts.
And the previously discussed question of accuracy...

What else am I missing? And I know it should never need to be said, but no one seems to understand, when making comparisons, "WHILE ALL ELSE IS EQUAL". When comparing normal FOC to EFOC, you have to keep all other variable isolated. Same weight, same shaft dia, etc... If you are strictly comparing light vs. heavy - then keep ALL ELSE EQUAL, same foc, same shaft dia, etc..fletching... If things are not exactly equal, say so, to not add to the confusion. Test samples (arrows being compared) need to be tuned for the bow used for the test. Tune would need to be confirmed by bare shaft and/or paper tuning results. All tests need to be reproducible. If a test is done in a way that makes it unable to be reproduced by other parties, then it is invalid in a scientific sense. It still might be interesting, but one cannot call it definitive.

Congrats on the kills, btw.

BM

PS - 10 free internets go to the person who can identify my "straw man argument".


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

You seem like an intelligent and sincere guy so one last reply- in red


Aronnax said:


> I don't have a hat in this race either way, I just find the discussion interesting. It doesn't take big game hunting experience it identify a fallacious argument.
> 
> straw man- "but for trying to interject some sanity to the discussion" You are implying that anyone who argues in favor of EFOC is insane. I'm saying my tests of arrows with EFOC weren't as accurate- see below
> 
> ...


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Beendare said:


> You seem like an intelligent and sincere guy so one last reply- in red


Thank your the thought out replies. I'm short on time, so I can't go into depth right now, but your comments in red have merit. I would like those who have the resources available to them to test your findings and see if they are verifiable.

BM


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Beendare- 

Great buff. Congratulations!
Would you share some details, please?
Bow draw weight, physical arrow specs- total weight, broadhead , etc?
Pass-through?


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

cooperjd said:


> Currently shooting gold tip velocity pro 300s w 100 gr inserts at 505gr and 17% FOC


This is the perfect balance of speed and penetration with my setup. Interested to see what you think of the heavier arrows.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

I've been shooting the gold tips for a couple years now. Out of my destroyer they shoot about 285fps and seem to hit like a hammer. I may beef up to the GT big games to get a slightly stiffer spine with my next dozen. But with the 70# bow I like the 500grainers to keep my trajectory pretty flat. I'll shoot some 600+ grainers out of it just to see how it shoots soon once I get them together


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## Rockyhud (Sep 17, 2008)

henro said:


> Your best bet as I tell everybody who pm's me with these questions is just to download OnTarget2 and play with all the specs to find what should spine properly for you before you buy. You still need to shoot and test the arrows after for correct spine via bare shaft tuning and getting your broadheads to group with field points as it is only a guideline. I have found it to be extremely accurate though.


Hi all. Having read through this thread has reignited my interest in heavy, high FOC archery ammo. When I read henro's reply to swany10 I thought I'd chime in as what swany10 gave for arrow selection and his bow specs are pretty similar to mine - just a little higher DW and DL. Anyway, my GT Velocity XT-300 based arrows shoot and group pretty amazing with my roughly 215-gr broadheads up front. I too have OT2 and was VERY careful, almost to the point of anal, about measuring everything about me and my bow setup, so I'd get the best results from it. Like henro I too have been very impressed with the accuracy of its calculations. As the saying in the computer world goes, garbage in equals garbage out, so the more accurate data you input for calibrating OT2, the more accurate its results will be. With my Martin Firecat the dynamic spine was shown to be perfect for target shooting and just a little low but still well within range for hunting use, and the way these perform in real life bear that out. I bought it a few years back and need to buy a subscription renewal so I can get the database updates that have my '14 Bear Agenda 6.

And one other thing. Maybe I missed it earlier, but another thing I haven't seen written about in this thread is how much better a heavy arrow, and especially one with high FOC, "bucks" the wind and from my experience at least, is more likely to hit what I'm aiming at in windy and cross-wind conditions than I've ever experienced with light, low FOC arrows. I've tested my heavy/high FOC arrows in ~30 mph winds/cross-winds and have been pleasantly surprised and impressed that I could still put my hunting arrows just 6-7" off aim point out to 40-50 yards. I wouldn't necessarily want to take shots that far on game animals in those conditions, but that kind of performance sure does build confidence that it can be done.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Beendare said:


> You seem like an intelligent and sincere guy so one last reply- in red


Beendare I would really like to hear your efoc build. Henro asked you many times to state it and you haven't. I'm am positive that you built an under spined arrow and that is why your getting the results you are. What you are saying is just completely false. Now if your statement was: "I have found that UNDER SPINED arrows tend to be less accurate compared to arrows spined right", instead of saying that efoc arrows are less accurate, I don't think anyone would argue that. I will be waiting for your arrow build specs.


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## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Beendare I would really like to hear your efoc build. Henro asked you many times to state it and you haven't. I'm am positive that you built an under spined arrow and that is why your getting the results you are. What you are saying is just completely false. Now if your statement was: "I have found that UNDER SPINED arrows tend to be less accurate compared to arrows spined right", instead of saying that efoc arrows are less accurate, I don't think anyone would argue that. I will be waiting for your arrow build specs.


That's not what Beendare has been saying. His point is that if high FOC arrows offered the claimed advantages, then manufacturers and competitors would use them. Nobody doubts the advantages of shooting a higher weight/FOC. Our point is that 650/20 is beyond the point of diminishing returns and there is no unbiased research to prove otherwise. I shot these arrows (650/20) for a year which amounts to about 20 deer (off-season permits included). I went back to a medium heavy (500/18) arrow which has the same penetration, easier assembly, better economy and flatter trajectory from my set-up. Too many variables to call this research but it was cogent to me.


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I really don't understand how some people can come up with the idea that an EFOC arrow should be any less accurate than a high or normal FOC arrow.
All the physics support that an EFOC arrow should at least be as accurate as an arrow with lower FOC if not better.
There is absolutely nothing about an EFOC arrow if built correctly that should lead to less accuracy and a more erratic flight.

I am very sure if people have experienced this, they have not built the EFOC arrow properly and most likely had a spine way to weak as this can very easily happen when trying to build an EFOC arrow.

With my draw length(32") and a 80 lbs bow, it is close to impossible or impossible to build an EFOC arrow that weigh less than 1000 grains and still have stiff enough spine.
If I plan to hunt Elephants with my bow, I might consider building a 1000+ grains arrow 
So I just have to settle for lower FOC, but I might build an EFOC arrow for my girlfriend that has a much shorter draw length and much lower draw weight than me.
For her, it should be no problems at all to build an EFOC arrow with stiff enough spine and I am totally sure it will be at least as accurate as a normal FOC arrow.

No one says that you need to build a 650 grains EFOC arrow for Whitetails, but there is nothing wrong with doing so either.
For penetrating deer, I personally think the EFOC is way more important than the 650 grains weight and if I was to build an EFOC arrow for deer, I would not care so much about the arrow weight as long as it is 450 grains or more.
But that is not for me with my bows


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

kwilson16 said:


> That's not what Beendare has been saying. His point is that if high FOC arrows offered the claimed advantages, then manufacturers and competitors would use them. Nobody doubts the advantages of shooting a higher weight/FOC. Our point is that 650/20 is beyond the point of diminishing returns and there is no unbiased research to prove otherwise. I shot these arrows (650/20) for a year which amounts to about 20 deer (off-season permits included). I went back to a medium heavy (500/18) arrow which has the same penetration, easier assembly, better economy and flatter trajectory from my set-up. Too many variables to call this research but it was cogent to me.


That's cool you put some research into but I think it's borderline impossible to accurately test these just on deer considering they are somewhat easier to penetrate than big game. It needs to be on a multiple animal basis, big , medium , bad hits, good hits, etc


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

kwilson16 said:


> That's not what Beendare has been saying. His point is that if high FOC arrows offered the claimed advantages, then manufacturers and competitors would use them. Nobody doubts the advantages of shooting a higher weight/FOC. Our point is that 650/20 is beyond the point of diminishing returns and there is no unbiased research to prove otherwise. I shot these arrows (650/20) for a year which amounts to about 20 deer (off-season permits included). I went back to a medium heavy (500/18) arrow which has the same penetration, easier assembly, better economy and flatter trajectory from my set-up. Too many variables to call this research but it was cogent to me.


Actually Beendare is saying efoc arrows are less accurate.

Direct quote from Beendare on post 594: "Ashby studies points to one thing- EFOC increases penetration. I say its at the expense of accuracy."

I really value Beendare's opinion on all subjects other than efoc arrows. I just think the claims he makes makes are false and were only influenced because he had an under spined arrow.

Whether or not you guys think it is necessary to shoot ashby arrows is up to you, I don't really care either way. For example, I am using some of Ashby's prinsiples on my arrow (efoc, single bevel head, etc.) but I'm not at the 650 mark. I think I will give the 650 grain mark a try though after season just because I have never shot anything that heavy. I would definitely be at that weight if I didn't have t-rex arms lol!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> That's not what Beendare has been saying. His point is that if high FOC arrows offered the claimed advantages, then manufacturers and competitors would use them. Nobody doubts the advantages of shooting a higher weight/FOC. Our point is that 650/20 is beyond the point of diminishing returns and there is no unbiased research to prove otherwise. I shot these arrows (650/20) for a year which amounts to about 20 deer (off-season permits included). I went back to a medium heavy (500/18) arrow which has the same penetration, easier assembly, better economy and flatter trajectory from my set-up. Too many variables to call this research but it was cogent to me.


Post the 650 build you used and the bow specs. I still call bs on you and beendare on spine adequacy since you both sidestep the question every single time.


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Aronnax said:


> I don't have a hat in this race either way (implying that his opponent has a hat in the race)
> 
> Did I get 10 free internets?
> 
> I am not a great archer by any stretch of the imagination. It appears to me that the EFOC and heavy arrows are more forgiving and easier to tune, based on my setup. The penetration gain is incredible. I even went to a 300 grain head this year after shooting 250 grains last year. Virtually no change in trajectory, and I feel my arrow flies even better...


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Beendare said:


> You seem like an intelligent and sincere guy so one last reply- in red


I think you have a valid hypothesis. Not the simplest to test- but I think it could be done.

You'd need six arrows- 3 normal foc, 3 efoc, of similar weight (though that might not be that critical for this test, but best to be as close as possible)

Build up one normal FOC arrow and make sure it is tuned perfect, do the same for one EFOC arrow.

Now for the other shafts, build one up 1/2 longer, and another 1/2 shorter, than the arrows that are in perfect tune (both normal FOC and EFOC). So you have in each FOC configuration, one that a bit weak, perfect, and stiff. Now shoot groups. If the out of tune EFOC arrows are consistently further off the mark than the out of tune normal FOC arrows, then you could conclusively say that the EFOC arrows are more sensitive to less than perfect tunes.

BM


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Aronnax said:


> I think you have a valid hypothesis. Not the simplest to test- but I think it could be done.
> 
> You'd need six arrows- 3 normal foc, 3 efoc, of similar weight (though that might not be that critical for this test, but best to be as close as possible)
> 
> ...


That really doesn't help anything though. Proper arrow flight is paramount for either setup to perform their best. You need to have a perfect tune-up with any arrow build you choose. If you can't tune one correctly, you probably aren't tuning the other as well. This isn't rocket science but most guys just don't take the time to research and go by manufacturer's tuning charts for shafts that are almost all way out of date in relation to today's higher efficiency & faster bows. They certainly do not give recommendations for adding larger amounts of weight to the front of the shaft either. OnTarget2 or any of the arrow software programs are a great game changer for a lot of people to play with setups and get a better idea of how dynamic spine changes with any given setup. The basics still need to be done to confirm the data given but it's a huge cost effective head start.

"Arrow flight is number two in importance(to structural integrity). It's the 'enabler' for other factors, delivering more usable-force on target and permitting each additional factor to work at full efficiency. Poor flight squanders arrow force.

You should spare neither effort nor expense in achieving absolutely perfect arrow flight. Even with every other factor in place, without good arrow flight you'll still have poor arrow performance. However, ignore the other design features and all you end up with a perfect flying arrow that still performs poorly on some hits, negating the perfect-flight advantage."---Ashby.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Aronnax said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a hat in this race either way (implying that his opponent has a hat in the race)
> ...


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## grander (Mar 19, 2009)

Aronnax said:


> jjwaldman21 said:
> 
> 
> > "A bow and arrow is not a magical thing, powered by the spirits of our dead ancestors." Loosly implying Beendare is disregarding the physics of the bow and arrow in favor of superstition and mysticism.
> ...


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

henro said:


> That really doesn't help anything though. Proper arrow flight is paramount for either setup to perform their best. You need to have a perfect tune-up with any arrow build you choose. If you can't tune one correctly, you probably aren't tuning the other as well. This isn't rocket science but most guys just don't take the time to research and go by manufacturer's tuning charts for shafts that are almost all way out of date in relation to today's higher efficiency & faster bows. They certainly do not give recommendations for adding larger amounts of weight to the front of the shaft either. OnTarget2 or any of the arrow software programs are a great game changer for a lot of people to play with setups and get a better idea of how dynamic spine changes with any given setup. The basics still need to be done to confirm the data given but it's a huge cost effective head start.
> 
> "Arrow flight is number two in importance(to structural integrity). It's the 'enabler' for other factors, delivering more usable-force on target and permitting each additional factor to work at full efficiency. Poor flight squanders arrow force.
> 
> You should spare neither effort nor expense in achieving absolutely perfect arrow flight. Even with every other factor in place, without good arrow flight you'll still have poor arrow performance. However, ignore the other design features and all you end up with a perfect flying arrow that still performs poorly on some hits, negating the perfect-flight advantage."---Ashby.


I agree with what you say. But if Beendare is correct that EFOC arrows are more sensitive to less than perfect tuning, It could be argued that a bow-hunter who is not the most skilled at tuning would be better served with a lower foc, easier to get a "close enough" tune, arrow build.

With traditional gear it's really easy to get "false" bad tune arrow flight by poor form. I'm not that great, and I can shoot the same bare shaft, w/o changing anything, and have one shot fly weak, the next a bit stiff, another perfect, then one that flies hock high, etc.. If EFOC arrows exaggerate that phenomenon, then EFOC would be a disservice to a beginner shooter who has not mastered the basics of form.

Like I said, we can debate both sides of the argument until our fingertips are bleeding on our keyboards, and achieve nothing. If someone wants to prove anything, perform a scientific test and provide some data.

BM


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Shoot bm, if we were forced to use logic and testing, 90% of threads would disappear. Nah, let's just argue based on feelings.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Aronnax said:


> I agree with what you say. But if Beendare is correct that EFOC arrows are more sensitive to less than perfect tuning, It could be argued that a bow-hunter who is not the most skilled at tuning would be better served with a lower foc, easier to get a "close enough" tune, arrow build.
> 
> With traditional gear it's really easy to get "false" bad tune arrow flight by poor form. I'm not that great, and I can shoot the same bare shaft, w/o changing anything, and have one shot fly weak, the next a bit stiff, another perfect, then one that flies hock high, etc.. If EFOC arrows exaggerate that phenomenon, then EFOC would be a disservice to a beginner shooter who has not mastered the basics of form.
> 
> ...


Beendare is stating EFOC arrows are not as accurate regardless of whether the spine is correct or not. Everyone in here(who aren't rocket scientists last time I checked) that understand how to construct a properly spined arrow and have tried high foc and heavy mass weights have shown in REAL LIFE that they work as Ashby's reports stated. He and kwilson will not share their builds and we all know why. Either they never actually did try them or didn't have a correctly spined shaft. Showing pics of a dead bull with the arrow having poor performance and barely any info about the equipment used doesn't show anything.

I do want to thank you for understanding how to construct a proper argument and be able to back up your own questioning. That's a far grasp for a couple members in this thread. 


jjwaldman21 said:


> Shoot bm, if we were forced to use logic and testing, 90% of threads would disappear. Nah, let's just argue based on feelings.


Lmao!!!


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

henro said:


> I do want to thank you for understanding how to construct a proper argument and be able to back up your own questioning. That's a far grasp for a couple members in this thread.


You're welcome. 


Another good one- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Beendare observed a correlation between accuracy loss and high FOC arrows. That does not necessarily mean the FOC of the arrows is the cause of the loss in accuracy. Additional testing would be required to isolate variable and nail down what the cause actually was. 

BM


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Aronnax said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> Another good one- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
> ...


Beendare:


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Also words that are useless in a scientific discussion are the non-quantity purely subjective adjective like "large", "small", "fast", "slow", etc...

I worked with a very good engineer many years ago. He told me when he started his career, he worked under a very smart engineer that told him, "You don't really know anything unless you can assign a number to it".

For example- "I feel accuracy is more important that a small penetration benefit.", is a meaningless statement unless you can assign a value to the claimed decrease in accuracy, and a value to the penetration benefit. The word "small" was used intentionally in that statement to try and solidify his stance that benefits of EFOC don't outweigh (pun) the claimed disadvantages.

Is the accuracy loss 10%? does a 4" group at 40yds become a 4.4" group? $10 says that most hunters can live with that. What is the penetration benefit? Now that one is a LOT harder to assign a value. On a bad shot, bone strike, etc., how much more likely are you to recover an animal? I have no basis on which to even make a wild guess.

A relatively simple test could be done to quantify the retained energy of the arrow after hitting a hard object. I emailed the guy who does the archery reports website with this suggestion, he never replied but maybe one of you with some resources and time could conduct. You need two chronographs, and a bone simulator. It would need to be a consistent homogenous substance, that the arrows tested can penetrate, but would take a good portion of the arrow's energy to do so. I would think some particle board of a given thickness might be sufficient. Some testing would be required to define the thickness necessary to get definitive results. The bone simulator would need to be supported in a very rigid, weighted down frame to limit it's deflection as much as possible. Any movement in the test medium would skew the results. 

You would need to set up one chronograph in front of the bone simulator, and another chronograph behind it. The arrow velocity, and resulting KE would be recorded and compared between different arrow builds, before and after passing through the bone simulator. I would recommend shooting blunt points for this test, as you are only trying to measure the punching power of each arrow build. Then you could easily quantify the percentage of retained energy. And of course, the tune of each arrow would need to be verified by either bare shaft or paper, or both...

If you have lots of $$ and resources, record the results with high speed cameras, because slow motion video is awesome.

Then we could all debate over what that means to the odds of recovering an animal. 

BM


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## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Bm, not sure about the whole causation/correlation idea. Alls I know is that every morning when I get up the sun rises, therefor I have concluded the sun rises because I get up. I know this for a fact, so don't try to convince me with any of that logic that I am wrong.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Beendare I would really like to hear your efoc build. Henro asked you many times to state it and you haven't.


I have the silly name callers on this site blocked- I could care less what they say as they have no real world experience.

I did these tests years ago when the Ashby stuff first came out- sorry I didn't video it for my peeps. Guys at 22%- I have no doubt I could get something like that to shoot...extend it to Ashby 30% guidelines and I lost accuracy. 
Have you shot a 30% EFOC arrow as in Ashby guidelines? Have any of these guys? Has Kronik or Henro or any of the backyard boys ever shot anything big?

Has the software program taken actual data from a 30% efoc arrow that is accurate at 50 yds as baseline for the data...or just extrapolated? Sorry, guys, too much backyard wannabe for me on this...I'm sticking with what I know works in the field, I will let my photos speak for themselves. The really high FOC didn't work for me...and back when I was testing the ABH arrows had terrible spine consistency- I have heard they are much better now as I have buddies that have killed big critters with them. Can a higher than easton recommended foc work- I'm sure it can. 

All this arguing....Ha, go back to the Video where the EFOC arrow from the Hooter Shooter loses line...and the others don't....but... but... but..... the backyardies say its better!?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)




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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Beendare said:


> I have the silly name callers on this site blocked- I could care less what they say as they have no real world experience.
> 
> I did these tests years ago when the Ashby stuff first came out- sorry I didn't video it for my peeps. Guys at 22%- I have no doubt I could get something like that to shoot...extend it to Ashby 30% guidelines and I lost accuracy.
> Have you shot a 30% EFOC arrow as in Ashby guidelines? Have any of these guys? Has Kronik or Henro or any of the backyard boys ever shot anything big?
> ...


No, I haven't built an arrow with 30% foc. You know why? Pause and think for a minute.

It's because you can't just add on a bunch of weight to the tip and still have the proper spine. Building an efoc arrow requires a lot of thinking and trying to figure out what arrow and what arrow spine to get. So yeah if you want to say an efoc arrow is harder to build with the right spine, I would agree. But I think saying efoc arrows are not as accurate is just a false statement.

I also notice several other things in your post. Were you using the ABH arrows when you built the efoc arrows? The same arrows that you say had bad spine consistencies? I'm thinking that would hinder your results and give you false data don't you think? You still haven't posted your arrow build specs. So would you say that the reason your efoc arrows weren't as accurate is because of things like spine inconsistencies, and an underspined build or are you still sticking to your story and think that efoc arrows in general aren't as accurate? If you sidestep this question like you have most questions then it is going to be clear that no one is going to convince you and it's not worth trying anymore.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

ok i think all the fueding is over with? I have a question for the regulars that follow this thread. Has anyone shot the thumper shafts by Quest? I used the Grizz Stik's this season but i wanted to switch to a different head and if i go with the head i want then the shafts diameter will be bigger than the broadhead ferrule diameter and we all know that is not a good thing to have. So if you know anything about the thumpers or anyone who has shot them plz let me know what is goin on with em?


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Bowtechforlife said:


> No, I haven't built an arrow with 30% foc. You know why? Pause and think for a minute.
> 
> It's because you can't just add on a bunch of weight to the tip and still have the proper spine. Building an efoc arrow requires a lot of thinking and trying to figure out what arrow and what arrow spine to get. So yeah if you want to say an efoc arrow is harder to build with the right spine, I would agree. But I think saying efoc arrows are not as accurate is just a false statement.
> 
> I also notice several other things in your post. Were you using the ABH arrows when you built the efoc arrows? The same arrows that you say had bad spine consistencies? I'm thinking that would hinder your results and give you false data don't you think? You still haven't posted your arrow build specs. So would you say that the reason your efoc arrows weren't as accurate is because of things like spine inconsistencies, and an underspined build or are you still sticking to your story and think that efoc arrows in general aren't as accurate? If you sidestep this question like you have most questions then it is going to be clear that no one is going to convince you and it's not worth trying anymore.


Exactly most just try to stuff as much up from on an arrow they can and may then grab the next stiffest spine arrow .But these guys who say they do not fly as advertised just do not research the arrow needed at exactly the poundage and draw length and pay load desired .He is right but forgot to include himself in the back yard wannabe crowd that just screw on heads and run or just randomly switch arrows to get more weight at the expense of proper spine for their set up ..

Also bow tuning is a lost art today by most hunters they just don't know how or don't care. So they screw on a mech head and run with it and then the arrows they shoot hit with extra side to side vibration "fishtail" of too weak a spine arrow or two stiff and still get crap for penetration on top the mech penetration issues .

Nope he and many just do not get it and never ever will they don't have it up top to do it or reason it out for the most part ..FYI to nay sayers the ballistic charts are spot on ..Just because their equipment and shooting is not has no bearing on science at all of arrow ballistics and flight. There will always be those who stumble through any situation and then claim it does not work .They are the same guys who never ever open a book unless it has pictures and spot sides or use and follow an instruction manual and then set and scratch their heads when it just don't work out for em.

just my take og this site and many in real life .


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> ok i think all the fueding is over with? I have a question for the regulars that follow this thread. Has anyone shot the thumper shafts by Quest? I used the Grizz Stik's this season but i wanted to switch to a different head and if i go with the head i want then the shafts diameter will be bigger than the broadhead ferrule diameter and we all know that is not a good thing to have. So if you know anything about the thumpers or anyone who has shot them plz let me know what is goin on with em?


Hey just wanted to say sorry your thread ended up being a bickering match for the last couple pages and I know I'm at fault as much as anyone I just wanted to get some information straightened out! But yes I think it's done lol! I bet you didn't think this thread would turn out this big and informative in your original post did you?


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> ok i think all the fueding is over with? I have a question for the regulars that follow this thread. Has anyone shot the thumper shafts by Quest? I used the Grizz Stik's this season but i wanted to switch to a different head and if i go with the head i want then the shafts diameter will be bigger than the broadhead ferrule diameter and we all know that is not a good thing to have. So if you know anything about the thumpers or anyone who has shot them plz let me know what is goin on with em?


I called quest a few months ago and they are closing up shop... They said I could order some thumpers based on what they had stocked, but they are not making them anymore. I passed because I didn't want to order shafts that I had never shot before from a company that would not be around.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> I called quest a few months ago and they are closing up shop... They said I could order some thumpers based on what they had stocked, but they are not making them anymore. I passed because I didn't want to order shafts that I had never shot before from a company that would not be around.


well that is good to know i will have to check into that. Thanks for the info. Currently running Goldtip Ultra lite 300, 200 grain fp, 100 grain inerst adding up to 562grains at 240 fps. Oh yea FOC is a lil above 26%. They are flying awesome and broadheads are hitting right with field tips. I did change my rest and i think this is a big part of the reason everything is working so well now


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## hawkdriver55 (Sep 6, 2010)

Used PSE Black Mambas this past summer to kill a water buffalo. I tipped them with 2 blade 150 VPAs and ended up with a even 800 grains total. Even with only 68.7 pounbs of draw I got plenty of penetration. At 30 yards I hit the buffalo high in the shoulder slightly quartering to and still got 8 to 10 inches of arrow sticking out the other side. With my 30 inch draw length and the arrows that I was using I couldn't get down to 650 and still have enough weight out front on the broadhead so I stuck with the 800 grains and it worked really well. When we Chronoed the arrows, I was getting 220 fps. (I understand from my reading that I was waisting 150 grns of wieght by going with 800 grns. It started pushing me off the back of the bell curve for momentum) Had I been shooting 650 grns my speed would have been slightly faster and I would have had the same penetration according to what I have read.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> well that is good to know i will have to check into that. Thanks for the info. Currently running Goldtip Ultra lite 300, 200 grain fp, 100 grain inerst adding up to 562grains at 240 fps. Oh yea FOC is a lil above 26%. They are flying awesome and broadheads are hitting right with field tips. I did change my rest and i think this is a big part of the reason everything is working so well now


What rest did you switch to?


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

hawkdriver55 said:


> Used PSE Black Mambas this past summer to kill a water buffalo. I tipped them with 2 blade 150 VPAs and ended up with a even 800 grains total. Even with only 68.7 pounbs of draw I got plenty of penetration. At 30 yards I hit the buffalo high in the shoulder slightly quartering to and still got 8 to 10 inches of arrow sticking out the other side. With my 30 inch draw length and the arrows that I was using I couldn't get down to 650 and still have enough weight out front on the broadhead so I stuck with the 800 grains and it worked really well. When we Chronoed the arrows, I was getting 220 fps. (I understand from my reading that I was waisting 150 grns of wieght by going with 800 grns. It started pushing me off the back of the bell curve for momentum) Had I been shooting 650 grns my speed would have been slightly faster and I would have had the same penetration according to what I have read.


 I doubt you 'wasted' anything with that heavy an arrow. 
You got awesome penetration on a very tough animal BECAUSE you were shooting a great broadhead driven by an extremely heavy arrow.
I doubt 650gr. would have done quite as well, even if it was running a little faster.


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## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

hawkdriver55 said:


> Used PSE Black Mambas this past summer to kill a water buffalo. I tipped them with 2 blade 150 VPAs and ended up with a even 800 grains total. Even with only 68.7 pounbs of draw I got plenty of penetration. At 30 yards I hit the buffalo high in the shoulder slightly quartering to and still got 8 to 10 inches of arrow sticking out the other side. With my 30 inch draw length and the arrows that I was using I couldn't get down to 650 and still have enough weight out front on the broadhead so I stuck with the 800 grains and it worked really well. When we Chronoed the arrows, I was getting 220 fps. (I understand from my reading that I was waisting 150 grns of wieght by going with 800 grns. It started pushing me off the back of the bell curve for momentum) Had I been shooting 650 grns my speed would have been slightly faster and I would have had the same penetration according to what I have read.


That's awesome, congrats on the kill. Awesome setup


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Hey just wanted to say sorry your thread ended up being a bickering match for the last couple pages and I know I'm at fault as much as anyone I just wanted to get some information straightened out! But yes I think it's done lol! I bet you didn't think this thread would turn out this big and informative in your original post did you?


No I had no idea it would go on for this long


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> What rest did you switch to?


Ever since I bought my carbon spyder I had the trophy taker smackdown pro on it. I had trouble from the get go with it leaving a tail high tear no matter how u set it up. I had read a thread earlier in the year about this problem and sold the smackdown and put on a limbdriver pro v and now I am shooting bulletholes and my broadheada and field points are flying spot on with each other out to 50yds. Will try farther when I get the chance.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Merry Christmas everyone!


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ever since I bought my carbon spyder I had the trophy taker smackdown pro on it. I had trouble from the get go with it leaving a tail high tear no matter how u set it up. I had read a thread earlier in the year about this problem and sold the smackdown and put on a limbdriver pro v and now I am shooting bulletholes and my broadheada and field points are flying spot on with each other out to 50yds. Will try farther when I get the chance.


Right on. Limbdrivers have a good reputation. I like having a rest that stays up on slow let downs so they are not for me.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I understand that


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

hawkdriver55 said:


> Used PSE Black Mambas this past summer to kill a water buffalo. I tipped them with 2 blade 150 VPAs and ended up with a even 800 grains total. Even with only 68.7 pounbs of draw I got plenty of penetration. At 30 yards I hit the buffalo high in the shoulder slightly quartering to and still got 8 to 10 inches of arrow sticking out the other side. With my 30 inch draw length and the arrows that I was using I couldn't get down to 650 and still have enough weight out front on the broadhead so I stuck with the 800 grains and it worked really well. When we Chronoed the arrows, I was getting 220 fps. (I understand from my reading that I was waisting 150 grns of wieght by going with 800 grns. It started pushing me off the back of the bell curve for momentum) Had I been shooting 650 grns my speed would have been slightly faster and I would have had the same penetration according to what I have read.


Ashby recommended something like 8-900+ grains for these animals so you wouldn't want to go lower in mass weight. Try looking for a stiffer spine rating in a lighter gpi to focus the weight at the front of the shaft and keep the same total mass if you ever want to change the build. Sounds like it worked well.


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

henro said:


> Ashby recommended something like 8-900+ grains for these animals so you wouldn't want to go lower in mass weight. Try looking for a stiffer spine rating in a lighter gpi to focus the weight at the front of the shaft and keep the same total mass if you ever want to change the build. Sounds like it worked well.


Hey Henro.....been a while. Nice job on the testing over the years.
I built quite a few setups that bordered on the ridiculous. In all reality I always found that for 95% of North American hunting , the 650 plus shafts sacrificed practical trajectory for penetration advantage. I still settle around 7 grains per pound and 12-15% foc.
If I was shooting a buff or elephant......I would shoot rebar with fletching. On game I think the relatively low launch velocities that Ashby was dealing with change his results as many of his longbow tests involved slow....slow arrows.
much like the speed at all cost shooter.....picking arrows based upon one criteria can be an exercise in justification.
Like all the things....it is still good to know all the info before the individual can make a choice....thanks for the dedication.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

alwayslookin said:


> Hey Henro.....been a while. Nice job on the testing over the years.
> I built quite a few setups that bordered on the ridiculous. In all reality I always found that for 95% of North American hunting , the 650 plus shafts sacrificed practical trajectory for penetration advantage. I still settle around 7 grains per pound and 12-15% foc.
> If I was shooting a buff or elephant......I would shoot rebar with fletching. On game I think the relatively low launch velocities that Ashby was dealing with change his results as many of his longbow tests involved slow....slow arrows.
> much like the speed at all cost shooter.....picking arrows based upon one criteria can be an exercise in justification.
> Like all the things....it is still good to know all the info before the individual can make a choice....thanks for the dedication.


Thanks Blake I appreciate it and good to hear from you too. It's always better to form an opinion for yourself after trial and error than assumption. Once I get some time to tune this new Gold Tip Kinetic .200 build I'll try to share some more results of what they can do.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

henro said:


> Thanks Blake I appreciate it and good to hear from you too. It's always better to form an opinion for yourself after trial and error than assumption. Once I get some time to tune this new Gold Tip Kinetic .200 build I'll try to share some more results of what they can do.


Looking forward to this!!!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hey guys letting go of my Monarch 200 grain single bevel broadheads . If you have been following this thread for awhile will knock the price down a bit if you are interested


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

What cut diameter?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

crankn101 said:


> What cut diameter?


Not at home right now but from the website they are 1.08" cut


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Just measured and they are 1 1/8" cut


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Monarch-200-Single-Bevel-Broadheads-3-Pack-P375C71.aspx


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## rhodeislandhntr (Jul 3, 2006)

A quick question on this subject. I did add weight to my existing shafts on my older bow and realize now that all i did was bring down the spine, fast forward to now. If i am understanding correctly, i will be shooting a 27in DL at 52lbs, if i use a 7.2gr, .400 shaft with 125-150gr upfront my foc will be around 14-15%, which should in all respects give a better penetrating , and more accurate arrow versus a .500 spine with either an 85 or 100gr head. Please correct me if i am wrong, reading alot about this but things tend to get blurred. Not shooting anything larger than whitetail, turkey and 3-d.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

rhodeislandhntr said:


> A quick question on this subject. I did add weight to my existing shafts on my older bow and realize now that all i did was bring down the spine, fast forward to now. If i am understanding correctly, i will be shooting a 27in DL at 52lbs, if i use a 7.2gr, .400 shaft with 125-150gr upfront my foc will be around 14-15%, which should in all respects give a better penetrating , and more accurate arrow versus a .500 spine with either an 85 or 100gr head. Please correct me if i am wrong, reading alot about this but things tend to get blurred. Not shooting anything larger than whitetail, turkey and 3-d.


This is about building 650+ setups. Most of us are hunting deer with them.


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## rhodeislandhntr (Jul 3, 2006)

sorry thought this was about efoc, got confused scanning through.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

rhodeislandhntr said:


> sorry thought this was about efoc, got confused scanning through.


Well 14-15% isn't really EFOC either. But a .400 spine shaft at your length and poundage should be able to handle a 125gr tip without much problem.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

been quiet on here nobody building anything? Anyone shooting the stokerized ss1 stabilizer?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> been quiet on here nobody building anything? Anyone shooting the stokerized ss1 stabilizer?


Built not bought lol. Still waiting on Abowyer heads. Should be any day now...


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Those look mean! What small game head is that? and weight?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Those look mean! What small game head is that? and weight?


250gr VPA Small Game Thumper SGT


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

do they make a 200 grain?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

just looked em up and yes they do. Have you shot yours yet? How do they fly ,flight noise?


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Yes I had the 200gr heads with my last VAP build. They're super tough. Squirrels don't like em either!


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## OxMan80 (Jan 25, 2015)

I'm interested in this challenge but I'm a bit hesitant. I was shooting a old Pro-mag with aluminum arrows, and just upgraded to a Hoyt Charger. I just don't know how well it's going to fling a 650gr 28" arrow at 60lbs, and 30" draw. Plus I'm really enjoying the speed difference between it and my old bow.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

OxMan80 said:


> I'm interested in this challenge but I'm a bit hesitant. I was shooting a old Pro-mag with aluminum arrows, and just upgraded to a Hoyt Charger. I just don't know how well it's going to fling a 650gr 28" arrow at 60lbs, and 30" draw. Plus I'm really enjoying the speed difference between it and my old bow.


Have you done any research on momentum? speed is a factor to a point where it hurts your momentum, because usually in order to gain speed you have to lighten your arrow.


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## OxMan80 (Jan 25, 2015)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Have you done any research on momentum? speed is a factor to a point where it hurts your momentum, because usually in order to gain speed you have to lighten your arrow.


Not much other than some chat stuff on here, and youtube. Right now I'm shooting right at 403gr, broadhead, vanes, nock, shaft and all.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well looks like this thread had been buried for a couple months. I have played around with this weight and have come to shoot a 500 grain arrow with slightly over 19%Foc. I have a short draw at 27" and have found that the pin gap at 650 grains is more than i want to compensate for. I just recieved in the mail my 145 grain steelforce titanium single bevel broadheads that i had to special order. I am very anxious to shoot something with these. Has anyone else shot these heads? Pics and info on them would be greatly appreciated!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

So what is everyone shooting this fall arrow weight , FOC


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

641gr, and i think 16%


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## 6APPEAL (Sep 1, 2009)

I've played with a several of different combinations in OT2, but haven't built any arrows yet. Waiting on my new bow to come in before I commit on an arrow build up. It would also be nice if I can get the arrows to work with both of my bows, a Diamond Black Ice (29", 70#) and an Obsession Fusion 7 (29", 60#).


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

well sounds good so far good luck on your build 6appeal


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## Hey Abbott (Dec 12, 2013)

I just purchased some gold tip xt hunter in the new 250 spine. With 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain tips they fly great and hit hard. I think they are around 550 grains and using the online calculators around 14.5 foc. With my long draw the drop in speed wasn't that bad.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That is a good looking arrow. Should hit hard


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## Hey Abbott (Dec 12, 2013)

I just went to the bow shop earlier and weighed the arrows. Total arrow weight is 574 grains.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Nice what kind of speed are ya getting out of those


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## Hey Abbott (Dec 12, 2013)

I was not able to shoot my bow as my faktor has the limbs taken off of them due to a big splinter broke off the bottom limb. When I get it back from Hoyt with new limbs I will run it through a chrono graph.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

ya if you would post em up on here for us to see would appreciate it


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## skyline1 (Nov 1, 2012)

I have been following this thread for a while, not because I was planning on building arrows that heavy, I just find it interesting.
Well I was having problems with my dca sd arrows broadhead tuning. I figured out some of the outserts had developed a wobble. So last night I put the stainless steel outserts on, they spin great, but now I'm wondering if I'm under spined. The arrows ended up at 612 grains.
I'm shooting am Athens accomplice at 28.5" 70# bow maxed out, might be slightly more. Arrows are dca sd 300, 29.25 long with 120 grain outserts and 125 grain head. Any input would be appreciated.


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## skyline1 (Nov 1, 2012)

By the way I figured that they are right at 20% foc.
And what broadhead targets are you guys shooting at with these arrows, I was having a hard time stopping my arrow before I added 90 grains


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

It all depends on how they tune. Shoot em through paper. And see if you are getting crazy amount of up or down in your tears. If they tune and fly well I would not worry about it. Do they make a 250 series in those arrows?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I have tore up every broadhead target I've shot with the single bevels. I would look for something you could unscrew the head off from the back side so you don't end up tearing the target up from pulling it back out


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I haven't shot it yet but I just picked up a HIPS Archery target off Camofire. I got the Grizzly model for $79.99+ $10.06 shipping. They have the other models on there also from time to time. For the price and the specs I figured it is worth a try to see how it hold up to big arrows. http://www.hipstargets.com/targets.html


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

They have something very similar to this at our local Archery store. Please let us know how it holds up


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## skyline1 (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't think they make 250's I'm not loyal to the brand but I have a dozen of them in good shape, I don't think I've even shot a couple of them. 
I'll look into that target, I've been shooting up to my fletchings in the one I got last year.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

skyline1 said:


> I don't think they make 250's I'm not loyal to the brand but I have a dozen of them in good shape, I don't think I've even shot a couple of them.
> I'll look into that target, I've been shooting up to my fletchings in the one I got last year.


Sounds like those arrows are hitting pretty hard


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

If the 120gr insert is too much for the shaft you can always use the Aero-outsert from firenock. http://shop.firenock.com/product.sc?productId=173 They are 30.5-33gr and are the same design of the 120gr that you are currently using. Firenock started making those style outserts and then everyone started making their own as the stock design is garbage (as you now know).

I personally would shoot a different arrow but that's just me.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

I'll stick to HITs or larger INSERTS. I do not like outserts.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Has anyone tried the 650 challenge on www.alaskabowgunting.com ? Accord to Dr.Ed Ashby a 650 gr arrow with 19% FOC is about where you should be to see a very noticeable change in penetration. I decided to try it out and see if I like it . Also wondering if anyone else has tried it or have built their own arrows to those specs and what theirthoughts are about it.


I did http://traviswdalton.com/2015/06/25/alaska-bowhunting-supply/


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## J.F CHARRUA (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm have been following this thread, and after seeing some very interesting video's of Dr Ed Ashby about extreme Foc, i have made some arrows, gold tip velocity 400, 3 inch feathers, accu little nocks 100g broadhead, stock insert and a 100grain module i ended with a 450g arrow and 22% Foc, and with a 150g module ended with a 500g arrow and 24% Foc. Now im must prove them in the range to see how they fly.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

J.F CHARRUA said:


> I'm have been following this thread, and after seeing some very interesting video's of Dr Ed Ashby about extreme Foc, i have made some arrows, gold tip velocity 400, 3 inch feathers, accu little nocks 100g broadhead, stock insert and a 100grain module i ended with a 450g arrow and 22% Foc, and with a 150g module ended with a 500g arrow and 24% Foc. Now im must prove them in the range to see how they fly.


The most important thing is proper arrow spine. If your arrows do not have the proper spine they will not fly/tune worth a dang. This typically results in people blaming the HFOC/EFOC when it is actually about having too much weight on the front of a shaft with too weak of a spine.

Not knowing your bow make/model, dl, dw I am going to go out on a limb and say these likely are not going to fly too well. But I could be wrong.


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## J.F CHARRUA (Jul 30, 2013)

The most important thing is proper arrow spine. If your arrows do not have the proper spine they will not fly/tune worth a dang. This typically results in people blaming the HFOC/EFOC when it is actually about having too much weight on the front of a shaft with too weak of a spine.


I'm shooting a bowtech experience 65lb 26.5dl which arrow spine you think i should shoot with those arrows setup thanks


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## J.F CHARRUA (Jul 30, 2013)

Forgot to mention 28inch arrow


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

J.F CHARRUA said:


> I'm shooting a bowtech experience 65lb 26.5dl which arrow spine you think i should shoot with those arrows setup thanks





J.F CHARRUA said:


> Forgot to mention 28inch arrow


This is what OnTarget2 shows for those arrows WITHOUT the weight module. You are already on the weak side of the shaft with no added weight.

OT2 Stock configuration 2cam x-hard








OT2 Switched to "use MFG IBO"









So when you add on the 100gr weight module this is how bad it gets.

OT2 Stock








OT2 MFG IBO









The little green box opposite the pinkish box in the screenshots show the "optimum spine" for your particular arrow specs. .323-.340 spine for the 100gr weight module. For the 150gr module it says .304-.319 spine. It is always better to go stiffer than needed and I would stick to the stock settings on OT2. Your bow isn't necessarily a speed demon so I included the manufacture ibo setting as well. All that said if you want to use the 150gr module you need to bump up to a velocity .300 spine.

Velocity .300 stock configuration arrow weight ~512gr with 150gr module.


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## J.F CHARRUA (Jul 30, 2013)

Kaizoku said:


> This is what OnTarget2 shows for those arrows WITHOUT the weight module. You are already on the weak side of the shaft with no added weight.
> 
> OT2 Stock configuration 2cam x-hard
> View attachment 2395641
> ...


Thanks a lot for your time, and explanation i will follow your advice and try with some 300 spine, again thanks.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

J.F CHARRUA said:


> Thanks a lot for your time, and explanation i will follow your advice and try with some 300 spine, again thanks.


No problem. Good luck.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Glad to see we r back to building arrows


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## upstart (Jan 4, 2005)

Ryjax said:


> I am working on a new arrow. Won't be as heavy but will have some FOC.
> X impact 300
> 85 grain outsert
> 125 grain head
> ...


I'm at 484 with my Victory Rips...really happy, but like you I'm cautiously watching this 650 challenge.


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## redwagon (Nov 29, 2014)

skyline1 said:


> I have been following this thread for a while, not because I was planning on building arrows that heavy, I just find it interesting.
> Well I was having problems with my dca sd arrows broadhead tuning. I figured out some of the outserts had developed a wobble. So last night I put the stainless steel outserts on, they spin great, but now I'm wondering if I'm under spined. The arrows ended up at 612 grains.
> I'm shooting am Athens accomplice at 28.5" 70# bow maxed out, might be slightly more. Arrows are dca sd 300, 29.25 long with 120 grain outserts and 125 grain head. Any input would be appreciated.


If you use Black Eagle X-Impact shafts in the 250 the DCA stainless outserts for their SD 400 fit almost perfectly. Their is .002 difference, which requires very little sanding on the shaft. I recently built some of these exact arrows they weigh 565 grains and are right at 18.5% FOC. If you're looking for a heavier shaft you might look into the Black Eagle Deep Impacts, but I don't know the deminsions on those.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

Since this thread has revived I have a couple builds I have been testing:

BE X Impact 300
Cut 26.5" C2C
92 grain victory halfout (fits like a glove)
100 grain head
Wrap and blazers 
452 grains 19.6% FOC
These fly like darts out of my slower bows, and bury deep into the target.

BE X Impact 250 
Cut 26.5" C2C
92 grain victory halfout 
100 grain head 
Wrap and blazers 
490 grains 17% FOC 
These fly well and hit a little harder, but the halfout likes to pop out because it's is not completely smooth against the shaft. May have to look at the DCA outserts.


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## 6APPEAL (Sep 1, 2009)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I have tore up every broadhead target I've shot with the single bevels. I would look for something you could unscrew the head off from the back side so you don't end up tearing the target up from pulling it back out


Same thing for me ever since I went to shooting a heavy single bevel.


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## hollywood88 (Feb 9, 2009)

I would like to try the 650 challenge but I'm having a hard time figuring up an arrow stiff enough. I've got the total weight covered with the arrows I just built but foc is very lacking. My arrows I just built are as follows
Easton axis 260
26.5" c2c
Standard hit inserts
100 grain heads
Bars
5 grain wrap
3-2.5" vanetec vmax vanes
X nocks
8gpi weight tubes 
Shooting out of 
PSE axe 6
28" DL
101.2#.
If I were to up point weight I know I'd be under spined.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

6APPEAL said:


> Same thing for me ever since I went to shooting a heavy single bevel.


I got a small black block just for broadheads. They eat it up, but it's thin enough that the head punched through from day 1


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> I got a small black block just for broadheads. They eat it up, but it's thin enough that the head punched through from day 1


I think that would be a great target to use for broadheads


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## J.F CHARRUA (Jul 30, 2013)

Just a quick question to you friends i have some 350spine deer crossing arrows laying here, i can make they weight 450g and have a foc of 19.14% (or more if a change the 2.5 vanetecs for feathers) or adding 25 grains more i can have a 20.5% of foc. But i don't have the on target 2 program so I'm worried that i could have a weak spine again lol. if some of you can put some ligth in this i will be very appreciated. Im shooting a bowtech experience 65lb 26.5 Dl 28inchs arrow.
I know i have been recommended to use 300 spine but this is what i have right now here my 300 arrows will arrive here in 15 to 18 days i live in Uruguay and here is winter , now is raining and wind is blowing hard so its very boring and what is better than arrow building . Thanks all.


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## redwagon (Nov 29, 2014)

Ryjax said:


> Since this thread has revived I have a couple builds I have been testing:
> 
> BE X Impact 300
> Cut 26.5" C2C
> ...


 I recently built some BE X-Impact 250 with the DCA stainless outserts they turned out great. The outserts weigh 125 grains and I can pretty much guarantee you they will not bend in anyway.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

redwagon said:


> I recently built some BE X-Impact 250 with the DCA stainless outserts they turned out great. The outserts weigh 125 grains and I can pretty much guarantee you they will not bend in anyway.


I think this will be my next build. I would love the extra 33 grains in the front


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I think that would be a great target to use for broadheads


It's perfect man. Only use it to broadhead tune then leave it alone and it will last a few seasons. My anarchy heads have tore it up pretty good but I won't need to shoot it again for a while


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## redwagon (Nov 29, 2014)

Ryjax said:


> I think this will be my next build. I would love the extra 33 grains in the front










I posted the build in the general forum I think I called it "550+grains 18.47 FOC X-Impact build" I managed to get 18.47% FOC with wraps, Flex Fletch SK300 and nocturnal nocks. If a man was too run real feathers and a regular nock the FOC would really jump up. The arrows I built have almost 45-grains on the back end. If you do decide to build these the DCA stainless outserts for their 400 spine SD shafts are what you need to order. If you build them in a 300 spine X-Impact the 500 spine SD outserts fit. (sorry about the blurry pic)


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

redwagon said:


> View attachment 2398113
> 
> I posted the build in the general forum I think I called it "550+grains 18.47 FOC X-Impact build" I managed to get 18.47% FOC with wraps, Flex Fletch SK300 and nocturnal nocks. If a man was too run real feathers and a regular nock the FOC would really jump up. The arrows I built have almost 45-grains on the back end. If you do decide to build these the DCA stainless outserts for their 400 spine SD shafts are what you need to order. If you build them in a 300 spine X-Impact the 500 spine SD outserts fit. (sorry about the blurry pic)


What grain Helix are you running? 
I would use wraps, SK200 and nocturnals on mine, but would want to stay around a 100gr head


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

hollywood88 said:


> I would like to try the 650 challenge but I'm having a hard time figuring up an arrow stiff enough. I've got the total weight covered with the arrows I just built but foc is very lacking. My arrows I just built are as follows
> Easton axis 260
> 26.5" c2c
> Standard hit inserts
> ...


The only real thing you can do is go to a stiffer spine. The axis .260 is 11.5gpi so it's a heavier shaft and that hurts FOC greatly. The Goldtip Kinetic .200 is 11.6gpi and .200 spine obviously. At 26.5" ctc the shaft will weigh roughly 307.4gr and your current axis .260 is roughly 304.75gr. So less than 3gr difference between the two shafts but you should be able to use a larger head to increase the FOC. They are both .204ID shafts so they use the same components. You might even be able to leave the carbon longer and run an easton eclipse x7 2014 for an external footing giving the front of the shaft more strength.

I cannot really calculate this setup in OT2 as there is no option for weight tubes and I do not know what length your weight tubes are to increase the gpi of the shaft adequately. Why did you decide to run weight tubes?

Here is an arrow I did run:
GT Kinetic 200 29" carbon ~336.4gr
100gr brass HIT insert ~103gr with glue
2.5" easton eclipse x7 2014 ~26gr with glue
2.5" vmax vanes x 3 ~21gr with glue
5gr wrap
X nock 9gr
~500.4gr without tip

100gr tip ~600.4gr








125gr tip ~625.4gr








150gr tip ~650.4gr








175gr tip ~675.4gr








200gr tip ~700.4gr








These were ran with 100# of draw weight as that's the max OT2 allows but the extra 1.2# shouldn't have too much affect. That shaft with the 150gr tip puts you right at 650gr and gives you 20% FOC.


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## redwagon (Nov 29, 2014)

Ryjax said:


> What grain Helix are you running?
> I would use wraps, SK200 and nocturnals on mine, but would want to stay around a 100gr head


I run the 125-grain Helix.


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## hollywood88 (Feb 9, 2009)

I ran the weight tubes just to get me above 5gpp. Without the weight tubes it would be way too light fore to use at this draw weight. I will probably pick up some kinetic 200's and try to match the total weight so I can test them side by side


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

hollywood88 said:


> I ran the weight tubes just to get me above 5gpp. Without the weight tubes it would be way too light fore to use at this draw weight. I will probably pick up some kinetic 200's and try to match the total weight so I can test them side by side


Well the shaft I drafted up would be a pretty tough arrow. Whether you decide to run weight tubes or a heavier insert, as I used, I would still say run the external footing.


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## hollywood88 (Feb 9, 2009)

Im trying to locate an old autumn orange easton to sacrifice for my footing. It would match my arrows and bow color scheme nicely. But worst case I do have some platinums laying around that could be cut and used


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Glad to see this thread building arrows again! I'm going to have to start building some pretty soon again and haven't thought much about it. They changed my velocity 300s from last year so I have to get all new arrows anyway! I had such great luck with my arrows last year, basically a pass through lengthwise on an elk, so I'm sure the new velocity arrows would do just as well but I might do some thinking. Couple things are for sure though, it will be heavy, efoc, and tipped with a helix 150!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Do anyone happen to take aftermath pics of the kills they made from single bevels last yr? If so plz post em up guys


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## 6APPEAL (Sep 1, 2009)

I've started playing with OT2 for my new bow. I seem to be at an odd spot with my 150 gr broadhead choice. A 300 spine is too stiff unless I add a bunch of weight or go longer and a 350/340 spine is a bit soft unless I cut it shorter than I prefer. I don't see anywhere in OT2 for adding an external footer. How are you determining the effect of the external footer on the spine of the shaft? The additional weight should weaken the spine, but the footer itself will stiffen the spine.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

6APPEAL said:


> I've started playing with OT2 for my new bow. I seem to be at an odd spot with my 150 gr broadhead choice. A 300 spine is too stiff unless I add a bunch of weight or go longer and a 350/340 spine is a bit soft unless I cut it shorter than I prefer. I don't see anywhere in OT2 for adding an external footer. How are you determining the effect of the external footer on the spine of the shaft? The additional weight should weaken the spine, but the footer itself will stiffen the spine.


Just remember it's always better to be to stiff than to weak. I don't know about that external footing but I would just add it as insert weight


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## nick morgan (Dec 23, 2014)

A stiffer spine will always help with penetration vs a weaker shaft


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## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I increased my total arrow weight to 654 grains with around 14.5% foc yesterday and did some testing of 100 grain NAP Spitfire Maxx with the trophy tip.

The ferrule and blades are really able to take some proper beating when it comes to keeping the straightness and edge, but the back end of the blades are hammering the aluminum ferrule at the back a lot, making deep groves and reducing the blade angle and cutting diameter, and I am not sure they will last for long when hunting with my setup.
I totally ruined my first test broadhead and it is not useful for anything anymore.
I wish they would make a all steel version of the Spitfire XXX and I don't care how much it will weigh 

I have not yet chronoed the speed I get from my 70 lbs 31" DL Destroyer 340 and I have not been able to test these exactly arrows from my 80 lbs 32" DL Nitrum DL yet, as these arrows have FOBs on them and I have a WB on the Hoyt.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

6APPEAL said:


> I've started playing with OT2 for my new bow. I seem to be at an odd spot with my 150 gr broadhead choice. A 300 spine is too stiff unless I add a bunch of weight or go longer and a 350/340 spine is a bit soft unless I cut it shorter than I prefer. I don't see anywhere in OT2 for adding an external footer. How are you determining the effect of the external footer on the spine of the shaft? The additional weight should weaken the spine, but the footer itself will stiffen the spine.


like was mentioned above I simply add the external footing to the insert weight. I would use the 300spine for sure.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I increased my total arrow weight to 654 grains with around 14.5% foc yesterday and did some testing of 100 grain NAP Spitfire Maxx with the trophy tip.
> 
> The ferrule and blades are really able to take some proper beating when it comes to keeping the straightness and edge, but the back end of the blades are hammering the aluminum ferrule at the back a lot, making deep groves and reducing the blade angle and cutting diameter, and I am not sure they will last for long when hunting with my setup.
> I totally ruined my first test broadhead and it is not useful for anything anymore.
> ...


Why the two different draw lengths?

I would use a different broadhead for sure. Just sounds like a failure on an animal waiting to happen.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> Why the two different draw lengths?
> 
> I would use a different broadhead for sure. Just sounds like a failure on an animal waiting to happen.


I agree you need to get into a different broadhead for sure


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Bare shaft tuning at 20 yards 
Grizzlystik UFOC 250
20 grain adapter weight added to 78 grain insert glued in with JB weld
200 grain forged single bevel broad head 
4" right helical feathers
650 grains 23% FOC


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hidden By Design said:


> Bare shaft tuning at 20 yards
> Grizzlystik UFOC 250
> 20 grain adapter weight added to 78 grain insert glued in with JB weld
> 200 grain forged single bevel broad head
> ...


Same setup I shot last yr only blazer vanes instead of feathers


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Did you get a chance to try it on any animals? I'm going on a moose hunt this September. I'm pretty confident in my setup.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Just whitetail and it absolutely blew threw them , I think you won't have any problems with moose


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hey guys just wanted to post that i have a few Grizz Stix's from last year i'm letting go. If you interested plz pm me. I have 3 250 spined and one 330 spined.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Hey guys just wanted to post that i have a few Grizz Stix's from last year i'm letting go. If you interested plz pm me. I have 3 250 spined and one 330 spined.


What arrow are you going to shoot this year? I can't remember if you told me or not.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

This was shot from 20 yards at a cow femur bone.
This was my setup.
http://traviswdalton.com/2015/06/25/alaska-bowhunting-supply/


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

This was after the shot









And after I re sharpened it









Those Monarch heads are pretty tough. The shaft didn't survive but I don't think any shaft would survive an impact like that. They did maintain enough integrity to completely pass through.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ryjax said:


> What arrow are you going to shoot this year? I can't remember if you told me or not.


I'm shooting Black Eagle Carnivore's this year.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

The reason I went with the Carnivore shaft is it was the lightest and stiffest shaft I found. They also have brass inserts and you can add an additional 20 weight to the insert


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> The reason I went with the Carnivore shaft is it was the lightest and stiffest shaft I found. They also have brass inserts and you can add an additional 20 weight to the insert


That should be a good set up! What total weight, FOC and head weight?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

With new 20 grain weights on back of brass insert will be 418-420 grain with 22% FOC. 145grain tip


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

What length are the shafts? What draw length/draw weight you have that e32 set at?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Shafts are 27" and the e32 is set at 65lbs 264 fps


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I do have some Goldtip ultra lie 300 spine 27" i'm letting go pretty cheap. pm me if you are interested or they are in the classifieds as well


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Is it possible to foot a tapered shaft like the grizzlystik?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That would be hard to do I believe


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> That would be hard to do I believe



I bought a set of calipers and did some measuring. My shaft is cut to 28" and measuring 2" back there isn't enough variation to hinder footing. It actually measured .315 2" from the end so the taper must be very gradual at the start. I ordered a 2212 shaft which should have a .320 inside diameter. 22/64 - .024 = .320 The nock end measures .275. I ordered a 2016 shaft for the nock bushing 20/16 - .032 = .281. I'm going to use a 2" piece to foot the end of the shaft and a 1/4" piece for a nock bushing. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Yes please do will be interested to see the results


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## Hey Abbott (Dec 12, 2013)

I finally got my bow back from the shop after getting the limbs replaced. The bow in my sig shoots my 574 grain arrows at 253. I'm pretty happy with those speeds.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

i would be tickled to death with that lol. I see you were blessed with a long draw. You shouldn't have any troubles with penetration my friend


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## Hey Abbott (Dec 12, 2013)

I picked up some new spitfire XXX to try out. Can't decide between them or going fixed blades with the exodus. Either way my set up should blow right through deer or any animal for that matter.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I prefer a good coc but I'm sure you wouldn't have any probably with that spifire with your specs


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Hidden By Design said:


> I bought a set of calipers and did some measuring. My shaft is cut to 28" and measuring 2" back there isn't enough variation to hinder footing. It actually measured .315 2" from the end so the taper must be very gradual at the start. I ordered a 2212 shaft which should have a .320 inside diameter. 22/64 - .024 = .320 The nock end measures .275. I ordered a 2016 shaft for the nock bushing 20/16 - .032 = .281. I'm going to use a 2" piece to foot the end of the shaft and a 1/4" piece for a nock bushing. I'll let you know how it goes.


I must have had temporary dyslexia. The UFOC 250 has an O.D. Of .351 not .315. Ideally you want + .005 for footing. Unfortunately I can't find a shaft that is .356. A 2412 is exactly .351. I don't have much experience with footing. I know I could heat it and get it on but I don't know if the carbon shaft could take it. Any suggestions?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

There is a guy on here that did some awesome arrow builds. Look him up his username is henro. Also has a thread "An arrow that Dr Ashby would be proud of"


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Yeah I sent him a pm he didn't seem interested in answering any questions. Guess I'll just try it and see what happens.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

If you are not having any luck in finding an arrow that you can use for your external footing, you could possibly look in to a fiber glass wrap like what makers of fly fishing rods use to hold on eyelets. The only problem will be getting the weight to be consistent from arrow to arrow.

But ultimately, at that point you might as well switch arrows.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm also building an Axis 260. Total weight 630 grains. Not giving up on the grizzlystik yet got to much invested in them.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)




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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hidden By Design said:


> I'm also building an Axis 260. Total weight 630 grains. Not giving up on the grizzlystik yet got to much invested in them.


Ya those are way too expensive to mess up on


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

The problem with the axis is it is a heavy grain per inch arrow. That is gonna hurt your FOC


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

You need to find the stiffest,lightest shaft possible for your setup


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## hollywood88 (Feb 9, 2009)

Im setting up some axis 260's as well. 26.5" carbon to ca4non with standard inserrs and 300 grain tips comes out to 653-654 grains and 23% foc


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

hollywood88 said:


> Im setting up some axis 260's as well. 26.5" carbon to ca4non with standard inserrs and 300 grain tips comes out to 653-654 grains and 23% foc


Well maybe i'm mistaken seems like the axis will work ust fine lol my bad :zip:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Gpi really has no effect on FOC. The only thing that effects FOC is how much weight you put on the ends. Mine ended up being 23% FOC. I footed mine with 2" piece of 2014.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

wow i would have to highly disagree with you there. If you can get the same stiffness out of an arrow with a lighter grain per inch your FOC would have to be higher because you have less weight distributed over the shaft and most of it is concentrated in the forward end.


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## Hey Abbott (Dec 12, 2013)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> wow i would have to highly disagree with you there. If you can get the same stiffness out of an arrow with a lighter grain per inch your FOC would have to be higher because you have less weight distributed over the shaft and most of it is concentrated in the forward end.


What he said.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> wow i would have to highly disagree with you there. If you can get the same stiffness out of an arrow with a lighter grain per inch your FOC would have to be higher because you have less weight distributed over the shaft and most of it is concentrated in the forward end.


That's what I said more weight on the front and less on the back makes a higher FOC. Less gpi would make a lighter arrow overall but I fail to see how that effects FOC. Shorter shafts are also easier to get a high FOC.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

No I mean same amount of weight on front . two shafts with same stiffness but one is a lighter gpi has less weight distributed over the shaft there for giving you a higher FOC %


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

The grains per inch of a shaft *DOES AFFECT* FOC without a doubt. Less weight in the shaft allows the weight at the ends to have more affect on the arrow. Because they are working against less weight.

As an example look at these two arrows that I just made in OT2. Both arrows use the same shaft length, same HIT insert, same blazer vanes, same X nock, and same 100gr point weight. The only thing different is the grains per inch of shaft.

1. Easton Full Metal Jacket .300 12.0gpi.









2. Black Eagle Rampage .300 8.7gpi.








Just by changing the gpi you get an increase of 2.2% FOC.

Now let's do it again but this time use a 150gr tip and 75gr HIT leaving everything the same as previous.

1. FMJ









2. Rampage








This example actually shows an even greater increase in FOC over the higher gpi shaft of 3.13%.

Yes this is a computer program and the numbers are estimated based on it's programming but the concept is correct. Ashby himself preaches low gpi and low rearward weight to achieve high FOC and extreme FOC. And depending on what bow you shoot, these examples might not spine out correctly but these are just examples.


Now, what does NOT have an affect on FOC like some seem to believe is the diameter of the shaft. That has zero to do with anything. The smaller the diameter of the shaft DOES NOT equate to more FOC. The only things that affect front of center are: Grains per inch of the shaft, forward weight (tip/insert/footings) and rearward weight (fletching/nock/wrap).
*
The heavier the GPI of the shaft the more tip weight you are going to have to add to get the same increase in FOC as a shaft with lower GPI all else being equal. Period.*

Using the FMJ I had to increase the tip weight to by 63.5gr to reach the 20.17% FOC of the rampage with the 150gr tip.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I stand corrected 


















11.5 gpi vs 9.7 gpi made almost 2% difference


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

Ive got perfect setup listed for sale for a 60# bow 29" draw.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

So what are the specs on those and what arrows are they?


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

Harvest time ht2 .003 w 50 grain brass inserts .300 spine.

W the 250 grain points they come out to .390ish


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Looks like a good setup. Good luck on your sale. What ya asking for all of em?


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Looks like a good setup. Good luck on your sale. What ya asking for all of em?


Pm sent


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## skyline1 (Nov 1, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> If the 120gr insert is too much for the shaft you can always use the Aero-outsert from firenock. http://shop.firenock.com/product.sc?productId=173 They are 30.5-33gr and are the same design of the 120gr that you are currently using. Firenock started making those style outserts and then everyone started making their own as the stock design is garbage (as you now know).
> 
> I personally would shoot a different arrow but that's just me.


What arrow would you shoot, I think I might get some 250s


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

skyline1 said:


> What arrow would you shoot, I think I might get some 250s


I had to scroll back and find this discussion. I would not shoot any of the shafts they make as I have an issue with the owner of that company. I also will not shoot an arrow that requires an outsert/halfsert. The smallest ID I will shoot is a .204 because it can at least accept a HIT insert.

What are you trying to achieve with your arrows? Shooting 28.5"/70# using 125gr tips I don't really see you needing .250 spine shafts. I shoot 31"/70# and I shoot a .300 spine for 125gr tips with stock inserts. If I go beyond that then I step up to .250/.260 spine. So you can stick to a .300 spine shaft that utilizes a HIT insert or larger so you have quality components that won't bend/acquire a wobble. But this all depends on what you are wanting to achieve.


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## prime.alloy (Jun 6, 2014)

My hunting setup is IBO 335 draw length 28", 72 lbs.
Had a few big game hunting trips, but I didn't get consistent good penetration with my 408gr arrow, 17% FOC. 
So I was looking for more penetration and ended up having a total arrow weight of 688gr, 28% FOC. Outside diameter .245". Shooting at 230fps, KE is about 80. The result is a very good improvement in penetration.
However, with my not so aggressive cam, trajectory is sacrificed. At 20 yards to 30 yards shots drop about 10 inches! 

So those of you who wants to use 650gr, beware for this trajectory loss. Using speed bow for these heavy arrows is highly recommended


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## skyline1 (Nov 1, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> I had to scroll back and find this discussion. I would not shoot any of the shafts they make as I have an issue with the owner of that company. I also will not shoot an arrow that requires an outsert/halfsert. The smallest ID I will shoot is a .204 because it can at least accept a HIT insert.
> 
> What are you trying to achieve with your arrows? Shooting 28.5"/70# using 125gr tips I don't really see you needing .250 spine shafts. I shoot 31"/70# and I shoot a .300 spine for 125gr tips with stock inserts. If I go beyond that then I step up to .250/.260 spine. So you can stick to a .300 spine shaft that utilizes a HIT insert or larger so you have quality components that won't bend/acquire a wobble. But this all depends on what you are wanting to achieve.


I guess I was trying to get them spined better. I did a trial with ot2 and with the 120gr outserts it said I was under spined. 
I've finally had some time to shoot them, they are flying good, bare shafts and broadheads. I think I will leave them for now, unless I can't stand the trajectory, but they are real close at 30, I will shoot longer distance when I get some shade, it's nasty outside. 
BTW, I got a new bow, Chill R with 85 % rock mods at 28"


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I think there is a happy medium especially if someone has a shorter draw length and doesn't want a big pin gap.


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## skyline1 (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm sure there is, I was planning for about 525 grain. I just shot 50 and 60, got about 7-8 inch drop at 50, not sure on 60 I moved the pin before I shot and was about an inch high.
I obviously don't have any problems getting to use my 60 pin, that's as far as I can shoot at my place. Those 610 grain arrows fly like darts, penetration seems the same in my target at all distances. I think I'm going to try to kill some critters with them.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

By all means if you can get a 610 grain arrow to fly fast enough to not have a huge pin gap shoot it. I tried it last year and at am my draw the pin gap was just more than i wanted to have. I ended up playing around and finished with a Black Eagle Carnivore 400 spine with 22.5% FOC, [email protected] Flying great and field points and broadheads are flying together all the way at 50 yds so i'm just waiting on season to roll in.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I think you also have to consider your average shot distance. For me I rarely shoot over 20 yards but if you're hunting elk or pronghorn your average shot might be longer.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

skyline1 said:


> I guess I was trying to get them spined better. I did a trial with ot2 and with the 120gr outserts it said I was under spined.
> I've finally had some time to shoot them, they are flying good, bare shafts and broadheads. I think I will leave them for now, unless I can't stand the trajectory, but they are real close at 30, I will shoot longer distance when I get some shade, it's nasty outside.
> BTW, I got a new bow, Chill R with 85 % rock mods at 28"


You can always get the firenock aero outserts for them. They weigh like 33gr and provide an external footing which will strengthen the front of the arrow a bit. Your FOC obviously won't be as great but then you won't have to worry about spine as much and you will gain some speed back.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Ideally I want a shot under 40 yards. But I have more pins and practice further than that in case that doesn't happen. I have a long draw length so I have better speed than most when shooting heavy arrows even though my bow is not a speed demon.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Kaizoku said:


> Ideally I want a shot under 40 yards. But I have more pins and practice further than that in case that doesn't happen. I have a long draw length so I have better speed than most when shooting heavy arrows even though my bow is not a speed demon.


You gotta have a long draw to get decent speed out of a heavy arrow. For those of us who were not blessed with long arms seems like we have to pull 80 lbs to achieve a decent speed with a 600 plus grain arrow. When i say decent i mean 250 fps or more.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Speed isn't everything. Just get closer! Lol.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

all about what you want. if you're a tree stand eastern whitetail hunter, do you really need a lot of speed? you're in one spot with a rangefinder, hopefully ranging trees, stumps, etc. if you're spot and stalking pronghorn or mule deer, maybe you need a flatter trajectory. i'm one of the fortunate 30" draw guys, and with an 80# speed bow i still get good speed from a 641gr arrow.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ya but the speed makes the pin gaps shorter. The buck I shot last yr was probably at 14-15yds had my pin down on his heart and spined him with my 20 yd pin. Almost over shot him with a 5 yd diff in pin gap. I was pulling #70 and only shooting 225 fps. I'm not a speed freak at all and I have done a ton of research and know that when your speed increases the resistance quadruples from tissue resistance. Since I don't want to pull #80 I settled for a lighter setup to have a smaller pin gap. I wish I had longer arms so I could shoot a 650 grain arrow and not have a huge pin gap.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

By moving the sight in/closer or out/further from the bow/eye can change the pin gap as well.

If I was treestand hunting all the time my first pin would probably be 12-15 yards.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hmm that is interesting . I didn't have much of a choice last yr. I was shooting the Tommy Hogg,but just curious which way does that work?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

It works both ways. Further from the bow wider the gap. With it being further from he bow/eye it is made worse by heavier arrows/slower speeds compared to lighter weight/faster speed. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1821457 A tommy Hogg can be mounted in three different holes. Going from the furthest extension to the closest moves it like 1.5"


I was editing my post when you replied. If I was tree stand hunting all the time I would have my top pin be 12-15 yards.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Don't have the Tommy Hogg anymore. But will check out that thread you posted


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Very interesting thread. Now has me wanting to experiment with my new Montana Black Gold Pure Driven 75


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ya but the speed makes the pin gaps shorter. The buck I shot last yr was probably at 14-15yds had my pin down on his heart and spined him with my 20 yd pin. Almost over shot him with a 5 yd diff in pin gap. I was pulling #70 and only shooting 225 fps. I'm not a speed freak at all and I have done a ton of research and know that when your speed increases the resistance quadruples from tissue resistance. Since I don't want to pull #80 I settled for a lighter setup to have a smaller pin gap. I wish I had longer arms so I could shoot a 650 grain arrow and not have a huge pin gap.


I gotta say there had to be some string ducking.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Maybe but my pin gap was enormous. My five yard mark was where most people's ten yd mark is. And I have to admit I have a short draw and that didn't help anything at all


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Are you using a slider? I'm using a 5 pin sight and instead of setting them the traditional 10 yard increments I set them at 5 yard increments starting with 20 and ending with 40. My pin gaps look like a 300+ speed bow set with 10 yard increments. With practice I've gotten use to how the bow shoots and feel really confident out to 40. I'll check my OT2 program but I think my 20 is only 2" high at 10 yards. I'm shooting a calculated 220fps.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I shot 2 down at my local bow shoot last Sunday.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Yes I was using a slider sight. Answer me this. At what point do u drop or go over the kill zone at 220 fps? Meaning a kill area of 8" when do you fall 4" low or go 4" high? How many yards variance do you have? Plus or minus how many yards? Just curious


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Out of town for a week. When I get back home I'll take a screenshot of OT2 that will show my arrow trajectory. I'll post for 20 to 40 yards. Obviously yardage estimation becomes more critical. I've found over guessing makes for a better hit than under guessing. It took me several shoots to get use to it. My first attempt I was 30 down. So there is a big learning curve. Pun intended LOL

I recently read an interesting one pin strategy where you aim 12 inches low (basically bottom of deer) with your 40 yard pin and your arrows trajectory will stay within a 6 inch circle. Applying that theory to my bow mine was good from 15 yards to about 32 yards. If I expand that to an 8 inch circle it would be even more. This is using OT2. I shot a few test shots on paper where I could mark 12 inches low and it seemed to work. The problem is being able to hold exactly 12 inches low. The math part works but applying it in a hunting situation I'm not so sure.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That is what i'm getting at i didn't want the misjudged yardage to be so critical if i was off 4 yards. I guess i wanted a little more room for error.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok guys got a question for ya. If you could get a 30% FOC arrow to fly with broadheads and fieldpoints the same and you were gaining everything and only shooting12 fps slower would you shoot them?


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok guys got a question for ya. If you could get a 30% FOC arrow to fly with broadheads and fieldpoints the same and you were gaining everything and only shooting12 fps slower would you shoot them?


I have tried several times to build a 30% FOC arrow but I can't keep it under 800 grains and be spined correctly for my bow but yes I would give up 12 fps. Ashby had some very interesting tests concerning 30% FOC. It didn't help with bone breaking but it dramatically increased penetration after breaking bone. As you already know speed doesn't concern me at all.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That was exactly my thought also would love to see someone get an arrow over 30% FOC and shoot an animal with it to see penetration results. From what i understand of it when you get to 30% FOC the penetration increases drastically


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Make a 30% FOC challenge 

Arrow must weigh under 700 grains and spine correctly for whatever bow you're shooting. I don't know if it's possible.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

That is an idea there


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

As compared to what? What is the previous setup? With only a loss of 12fps the previous arrow would have a good bit of FOC already.

I would likely shoot it if it was spined correctly. But I don't see that scenario being realistic.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

When companies spine an arrow is it at a certain length like 28". I would have to think that the shorter and shorter an arrow gets it would have to change the spine making it stiffer and stiffer?


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Yes spine measurements are typically taken with the posts 28" apart. Cutting the shafts shorter than that does stiffen them. At what rate the stiffness increases I do not have that data. You are limited on how short you can cut though; your rest only sits so far back.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

Hidden By Design said:


> Make a 30% FOC challenge
> 
> Arrow must weigh under 700 grains and spine correctly for whatever bow you're shooting. I don't know if it's possible.


Low draw weight and short draw length is the key to that puzzle.

Get a weak-ish static spine shaft with a very low gpi (carbon tech cheetah's come to mind), and cut them as short as possible.

With longer draw lengths and higher draw weights, I'm not sure it's possible.


BM


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## FearNot (Dec 22, 2003)

Sure are some heavy logs being shot!


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> That is what i'm getting at i didn't want the misjudged yardage to be so critical if i was off 4 yards. I guess i wanted a little more room for error.


20 yard hit window 4 yards to 24 yards









30 yards = 26 to 33









40 yards = 38 to 42









I know this is unacceptable for a lot of people but my shots are less than 30 yards so I'm happy with it.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

As long as you are happy with it is what matters. Are you just basing that off of your OT2 or have you actually gone outside and tested that because your first numbers don't sound right. I can't imagine that it will hit the same from 4yd to 24yds if you only have a 4 yd gap to play with. So in reality you are saying that you only have a plus or minus 2yd gap?


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> As long as you are happy with it is what matters. Are you just basing that off of your OT2 or have you actually gone outside and tested that because your first numbers don't sound right. I can't imagine that it will hit the same from 4yd to 24yds if you only have a 4 yd gap to play with. So in reality you are saying that you only have a plus or minus 2yd gap?


That was using an 8 inch hit window. In other words that's plus or minus 4 inches. if you aim dead center on an 8 inch circle all shots from 4 yards to 24 yards will hit inside that circle with the 20 yard pin. Not sure what you mean by plus or minus 2 yard gap?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I meant you could only go two yards in front or two yards behind where your pin is sighted in before you were out of the 8 inch circle


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

At 40 yards yes 20 yards got 4 and 30 got 3. I set my pins in 5 yard increments vs the normal 10 so I can gap pins for 33 yards etc. it took some practice but I'm really confident in this setup. If I were expecting shots over 40 I would get something like a TEK hybrid sight to use and dial it in to the exact yardage. Maybe if I draw an elk tag.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Sounds like about the same results I had last year my five yard marks were where most 10 yd marks are


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

He went maybe 80 yards. Broad head broke but still got enough penetration for double lung hit.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

^^^What head did you use?^^^

Great Bull BTW!


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Monarch 200 grain by grizzly stick


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## ctrupp (Feb 22, 2015)

Great bull. Where were you hunting? What was the arrow weight? Again, nice bull, enjoy all that meat.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Here you go http://traviswdalton.com/2015/09/27/yukon-moose-hunt/


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Hidden By Design said:


> Monarch 200 grain by grizzly stick


Wow! Here's the blurb on them:

The Monarch 200 is a one-piece broadhead, 1.08" x 3.02", forged from a solid piece of 440C stainless steel. There are no weak points. Of course they offer our signature bone busting tanto tip. All edges, including the trailing edge are honed razor sharp at the factory.


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Fortyneck said:


> Wow! Here's the blurb on them:
> 
> The Monarch 200 is a one-piece broadhead, 1.08" x 3.02", forged from a solid piece of 440C stainless steel. There are no weak points. Of course they offer our signature bone busting tanto tip. All edges, including the trailing edge are honed razor sharp at the factory.



Apparently there weren't any weak points in that bull's rib, either!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

From results I've read on ABS's heads the weak point is they're too high rockwell hardened which cause them to break as you see. Regardless... AWESOME moose! Congrats!


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

henro said:


> From results I've read on ABS's heads the weak point is they're too high rockwell hardened which cause them to break as you see. Regardless... AWESOME moose! Congrats!


A rep contacted me and said they were trying lower Rockwell. I can't complain to much I got enough penetration to do the job. However that's mostly due to high FOC and a heavy arrow.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

nice moose man!


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

henro said:


> From results I've read on ABS's heads the weak point is they're too high rockwell hardened which cause them to break as you see. Regardless... AWESOME moose! Congrats!


I've read similar. They tend to lean toward too hard rather than err on the soft side, reasoning that it's better for a broadhead to break than to curl.
I believe Saint Ashby ) supported that concept, and I suppose that Hidden By Design's moose recovery *somewhat* bears it out. 

But still -broke on a rib???!!!
Not good.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

KRONIIK said:


> I've read similar. They tend to lean toward too hard rather than err on the soft side, reasoning that it's better for a broadhead to break than to curl.
> I believe Saint Ashby ) supported that concept, and I suppose that Hidden By Design's moose recovery *somewhat* bears it out.
> 
> But still -broke on a rib???!!!
> Not good.


They can still be too hard which makes them brittle as these appear to be.


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

henro said:


> They can still be too hard which makes them brittle as these appear to be.


 Oh, I agree 100%.
Too hard=too brittle=failure.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I think the glancing hit on the rib was a contributing factor. Testing these heads I did break one and it was a glancing hit. I'm not giving them a bad review based on one shot that did kill a moose.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Nice moose man! Congratulations!


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

Nice moose! Congrats.

What rest were you using and how/where did it "bend"?


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> Nice moose! Congrats.
> 
> What rest were you using and how/where did it "bend"?


Trophy taker smack down pro basically bent where it came past the riser


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

The launcher arm? The containment ring? The windage/elevation block? What part of the rest?


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Kaizoku said:


> The launcher arm? The containment ring? The windage/elevation block? What part of the rest?


The part that attaches to the riser.


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## Kaizoku (Dec 23, 2011)

That was some fall.


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## hollywood88 (Feb 9, 2009)

I think next season I'm going to give the 650 challenge a go. I've got an arrow recipe figured out that will spine out almost perfect for 70# just a touch stiff. Then again I may try to build for a 60# setup instead. Only time will tell. My current setup is only shooting 228fps with my heavy fmj's and pulling 58#. Shot it like that for a 3d shoot right before season started and shot 18 up so I'm kind of afraid to change it.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Awesome moose. That is my dream hunt right there.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Alright guys i have been bouncing around a bit over the past two seasons with this Ashby thing. I believe i have come to believe that there is definitely a happy medium for deer. I also believe that you need to have a longer draw and heavy poundage shooting a heavy arrow. The whole key is to be able to get a heavier arrow to move faster. I have shot 660 gr and in all honesty it didn't perform like i thought it would. I shot a buck this year with a 470 grain build that performed almost the same as the 660 gr arrow. For me i think i want to be shooting around 260-275 fps,but in order to do that i am going to have to shoot a 420-460 gr arrow due to my shorter draw length. The one thing i have yet to come across is a certain number on momentum that says how many slug feet is actually enough. That is going to be my next goal is to find out how many slug feet of momentum is required to pass through a deer.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Alright guys i have been bouncing around a bit over the past two seasons with this Ashby thing. I believe i have come to believe that there is definitely a happy medium for deer. I also believe that you need to have a longer draw and heavy poundage shooting a heavy arrow. The whole key is to be able to get a heavier arrow to move faster. I have shot 660 gr and in all honesty it didn't perform like i thought it would. I shot a buck this year with a 470 grain build that performed almost the same as the 660 gr arrow. For me i think i want to be shooting around 260-275 fps,but in order to do that i am going to have to shoot a 420-460 gr arrow due to my shorter draw length. The one thing i have yet to come across is a certain number on momentum that says how many slug feet is actually enough. That is going to be my next goal is to find out how many slug feet of momentum is required to pass through a deer.


To pass through a deer or to break bone and still pass through? That's also been a question I'd like answered. Is there a minimum momentum number? From what I understand ashby says it's totally dependent on arrow weight. Correct me if I'm wrong. I also think that number would change depending on the size of the game and the average shot distance. For example what would you use on whitetails with an average shot of 20 yards vs an elk with an average shot of 30 yards.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hidden By Design said:


> To pass through a deer or to break bone and still pass through? That's also been a question I'd like answered. Is there a minimum momentum number? From what I understand ashby says it's totally dependent on arrow weight. Correct me if I'm wrong. I also think that number would change depending on the size of the game and the average shot distance. For example what would you use on whitetails with an average shot of 20 yards vs an elk with an average shot of 30 yards.


That is exactly what I'm wondering hidden


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I also have a short draw length. So I went the speed bow route one year and bought a 70 lb Omen. It was super fast but my accuracy suffered. I have thought about trying a 50 lb speed bow with a 450 grain arrow.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

i'm not sure there is a "number" that will give you this. you can take a lighter arrow and make it super fast, or a heavy arrow and make it slower, and achieve the same Mo number. the one that receives its Mo value more from mass and not velocity should penetrate more. also, what is on the front of the arrow will make a huge difference. if you're talking a 3 1/8" deadringer trauma 2-blade; a muzzy 3 blade; or a 1" wide 3" long 2 blade broadhead, they will have a difference in penetration all else being equal. 

this is always assuming that whatever arrow/broadhead/weight combo you choose is perfectly tuned, as that also will make a huge difference.

then there is FOC. the same overall mass arrow with the same broadhead; yet configured differently to give varying FOC values, may make a difference, again, all else being equal. (i.e. heavy gpi arrow with 100gr head versus light gpi shaft with 150gr head)

then there is the fact that animals move, and no 2 shots are identical. a setup that typically blows right through ribs of a whitetail may not even do that if the deer is whirling around as the arrow is slicing through.

so i do not believe there is a magic "number". what i believe is that we should build setups to give us the highest possible chance of a passthrough on the worst possible shot outcome. whatever that is for the individual. i do not like shooting 220 fps, so i have setups that will sling relatively heavy arrows pretty fast. i also do not need 300+fps; 270-280 is just fine for me personally; so i build my setups for this velocity range. with that overall arrow mass in mind, i try to build an arrow to spine correctly to also give me the highest FOC possible in a given weight. then, i tune the hell out of them to give me the best possible arrow flight. i'm lucky with a long draw and can shoot relatively heavy bows; so i can build heavy arrows and still sling them pretty fast.

i think people should understand their limitations and build arrows accordingly. if you are a short draw and prefer a lower draw weight, do not expect a 300 fps arrow that will also pass through every time with a large cut mechanical. it just does not happen, watch almost every hunting show out there these days and you'll see deer running off with nocks blinking out of their ribcage. i do not believe in "overkill"; so shoot the slowest arrow you are comfortable with (also then by default the heaviest); build it for the highest FOC you can; and if that for you is a midweight arrow at a modest speed, top it with a super sharp 2 blade broadhead to maximize penetration. just my $.02


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## UncleIke (Dec 23, 2013)

This is an interesting post. tagged for later.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Very nice post and I think you summed up exactly what I was thinking


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I finally made an arrow that is around 650 grains and 30% FOC that will spine correctly for my bow. 










However I've read that the victory arrows aren't very tough.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Axis at 27% FOC


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

The vap with that much weight will need to be footed. Also what insert are you gonna run that is 50 grains? The titanium ones are about $130 for a dozen


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

dang thats awesome man


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> The vap with that much weight will need to be footed. Also what insert are you gonna run that is 50 grains? The titanium ones are about $130 for a dozen


The penetrator was 50 grains not sure how much they cost.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> The vap with that much weight will need to be footed. Also what insert are you gonna run that is 50 grains? The titanium ones are about $130 for a dozen


I think there is a shaft that will work for footing but it's cut to short for footing to work. Only way I could get FOC up was cut it to 25".


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm liking the axis build a little better.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Axis 260's with 50/75 brass hit inserts + alu. footing are a super build.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Mauritian said:


> Axis 260's with 50/75 brass hit inserts + alu. footing are a super build.


I like this idea better because the penetrator inserts are aluminum. I have the stainless steel ones on my vap 350's and they are 92 grains. Only way i can get it to spine out correctly for the 350 with a 92 gr insert is running a 100 gr field point. Plus the footing would make that a BAD***** arrow with the axis!


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I like this idea better because the penetrator inserts are aluminum. I have the stainless steel ones on my vap 350's and they are 92 grains. Only way i can get it to spine out correctly for the 350 with a 92 gr insert is running a 100 gr field point. Plus the footing would make that a BAD***** arrow with the axis!


Can't foot the axis either it's to short. That build is with 2 75 grain brass inserts. I'm hoping with jb weld and the extra insert it will be strong.


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## GrayTech (Jan 29, 2013)

Hidden By Design said:


> Can't foot the axis either it's to short. That build is with 2 75 grain brass inserts. I'm hoping with jb weld and the extra insert it will be strong.


I'd get a section of threaded rod and screw the inserts together before installing if the hole goes right through.


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## GrayTech (Jan 29, 2013)

In my experience high foc is overrated. I got the best overall penetration in tests using high gpi arrow with 100 grain tip, 11% foc. It seems to provide the most stable flight, especially at longer distance, with least wind interference. 
If the pivot point of an arrow (center of mass) is too far forward the effect of any wind is magnified by the longer lever between fletchings and pivot, reducing penetration. My best performing foc range was 10 - 12%.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

GrayTech said:


> In my experience high foc is overrated. I got the best overall penetration in tests using high gpi arrow with 100 grain tip, 11% foc. It seems to provide the most stable flight, especially at longer distance, with least wind interference.
> If the pivot point of an arrow (center of mass) is too far forward the effect of any wind is magnified by the longer lever between fletchings and pivot, reducing penetration. My best performing foc range was 10 - 12%.


I would be interested in reading your test.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Hidden By Design said:


> Can't foot the axis either it's to short. That build is with 2 75 grain brass inserts. I'm hoping with jb weld and the extra insert it will be strong.


Did i miss something in your previous posts?
Do you already have your arrows cut or are you looking at a theoretical build?
Because Axis 260's at 27" with a 2" footing will get you the same result as a 25" shaft. Static spine will be much stiffer than 260 as well at 25" of exposed carbon.


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## 17ghk (Nov 11, 2009)

GrayTech said:


> In my experience high foc is overrated. I got the best overall penetration in tests using high gpi arrow with 100 grain tip, 11% foc. It seems to provide the most stable flight, especially at longer distance, with least wind interference.
> If the pivot point of an arrow (center of mass) is too far forward the effect of any wind is magnified by the longer lever between fletchings and pivot, reducing penetration. My best performing foc range was 10 - 12%.


I agree. 100 grain works for me on many shafts. I really don't care about all the numbers.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Did i miss something in your previous posts?
> Do you already have your arrows cut or are you looking at a theoretical build?
> Because Axis 260's at 27" with a 2" footing will get you the same result as a 25" shaft. Static spine will be much stiffer than 260 as well at 25" of exposed carbon.


Theoretical build. I was thinking a 3" footing was needed so a 28" arrow would be required to clear my rest. The build is an axis 260. Making the arrow longer decreases the FOC. I'm wanting 30%. 

Here are the axis numbers with a footer.


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## GrayTech (Jan 29, 2013)

Hidden By Design said:


> I would be interested in reading your test.


I collected 2 dozen unclaimed 300 spine arrows of varying gpi from our local range, stripped them down and set them up to as close to 525 grains as possible. I got foc range from 9 - 26%. Shot them into a compressed press board target at varying distances in varying wind conditions. At under 25 yards the foc didn't seem to make all that much difference. At 35 I got a noticeable difference with a cross wind. At 65 yards 10 - 12% was hands down winner, even with very little wind.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

GrayTech said:


> I collected 2 dozen unclaimed 300 spine arrows of varying gpi from our local range, stripped them down and set them up to as close to 525 grains as possible. I got foc range from 9 - 26%. Shot them into a compressed press board target at varying distances in varying wind conditions. At under 25 yards the foc didn't seem to make all that much difference. At 35 I got a noticeable difference with a cross wind. At 65 yards 10 - 12% was hands down winner, even with very little wind.


How did you change FOC without affecting spine or should I say did you tune the bow to each arrow? Wouldn't compressed board penetration be effected by friction and not really give you a true measure of penetration? Go read the 2008 updates to the ashby reports. He has data from arrows shot into real animals from bows that were tuned to said arrows. Pretty convincing argument for 30% plus FOC.


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## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

GrayTech said:


> I collected 2 dozen unclaimed 300 spine arrows of varying gpi from our local range, stripped them down and set them up to as close to 525 grains as possible. I got foc range from 9 - 26%. Shot them into a compressed press board target at varying distances in varying wind conditions. At under 25 yards the foc didn't seem to make all that much difference. At 35 I got a noticeable difference with a cross wind. At 65 yards 10 - 12% was hands down winner, even with very little wind.


You did not compare apples to apples so how can you expect to have comprehensive results....no wonder your testing turned out the way it did. Take the same exact arrow with the same fletching and knocks and then experiment with the FOC all the while making sure you keep your spine in the optimal range. I bet you get quite a bit different scenario with your testing. All arrows should be the same length, same brand, same model....the only difference should be what spine you start with. All of the finished out arrows should spine out around the same with the only difference being how much weight is forward. The bow has to be tuned for each different arrow build as well. The thing you have to look to be able to do is take out as many varriables as you can that can effect flight. This experiment has been done several times by several people and the results are always the same. Better penetration for the higher FOC designed arrow.

A sample build would be to use a easton axis cut to 28" but in different spines. Add your weight forward to get them to all spine out to say .340. Fletching and nocks should all be the same. The bow should be tuned to each build and then shot at varying distances to record time of flight, drop, drift, and speed at the distance you choose (3, 30, and 60 yards would be my choice). Then find and use a consistent medium to test the penetration. Again the same broad head should be used for each build because our goal is to eliminate all the variables that can cause differences that are not related to FOC. I would use a 100 grain broadhead like a Steelforce phathead or magnus stinger for each build.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Hidden By Design said:


> Theoretical build. I was thinking a 3" footing was needed so a 28" arrow would be required to clear my rest. The build is an axis 260. Making the arrow longer decreases the FOC. I'm wanting 30%.
> 
> Here are the axis numbers with a footer.


Ok I see your problem. 
I have 3 different builds, VAP 250's, Axis 260's and now GT kinetic 200's. I've gone down a bit in FOC but still stay between 20-25% and they're all footed. You're right in that 30% is almost impossible with a longer footed arrow and a high powered bow. I tried to follow Ashby's rules but have given up on 30% and went for 650 + Grs and a footed arrow instead since arrow integrity is way more important than FOC in a hunting situation.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Ok I see your problem.
> I have 3 different builds, VAP 250's, Axis 260's and now GT kinetic 200's. I've gone down a bit in FOC but still stay between 20-25% and they're all footed. You're right in that 30% is almost impossible with a longer footed arrow and a high powered bow. I tried to follow Ashby's rules but have given up on 30% and went for 650 + Grs and a footed arrow instead since arrow integrity is way more important than FOC in a hunting situation.


Yes I'm having the arrow integrity problem for sure. I was thinking the 2 brass inserts with jb weld would act as an internal footing coupled with a broad head adapter ring to protect the end of the carbon. Also it seems that the higher the FOC the easier it is to maintain arrow integrity. Any thoughts on this? What broad head are you using? I would like to find a 200 grain head with a M.A. of 3 and a steel ferrule vs an aluminum ferrule. Strickland makes a 200 grain with steel ferrule but the M.A. is only 1.2 ABS makes a 200 with M.A. of 3 but it has an aluminum ferrule. Thoughts and or suggestions appreciated. Ashby's research shows a 4% gain in penetration for every 1% gain in FOC. I suppose I could go really heavy like 800 grain heavy and get 30% but I'd rather stay close to 650.


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Hidden By Design said:


> Yes I'm having the arrow integrity problem for sure. I was thinking the 2 brass inserts with jb weld would act as an internal footing coupled with a broad head adapter ring to protect the end of the carbon. Also it seems that the higher the FOC the easier it is to maintain arrow integrity. Any thoughts on this? What broad head are you using? I would like to find a 200 grain head with a M.A. of 3 and a steel ferrule vs an aluminum ferrule. Strickland makes a 200 grain with steel ferrule but the M.A. is only 1.2 ABS makes a 200 with M.A. of 3 but it has an aluminum ferrule. Thoughts and or suggestions appreciated. Ashby's research shows a 4% gain in penetration for every 1% gain in FOC. I suppose I could go really heavy like 800 grain heavy and get 30% but I'd rather stay close to 650.



As you know the weak spot on the shaft is at the tip and especially behind the brass insert and should be protected by the footing with an overlap of about 1/2". I don't see any benefit to doubling up the inserts either. I've shot a ton into bones on purpose and into rocks by accident and had the footing hold up great most of the time. I agree that higher FOC is better for arrow integrity but not to the point where 20, 25 or 30% makes a big difference.
I hunt with the Cutthroat 200's all steel because I don't want to go much over 650 gr. It's an awesome head and extremely tough. They now make a 250gr and Abowyer makes a 250 which looks tough as well. I prefer the CT's since there are no welds or screws. 
As for MA I believe it'll be impossible to get to 3:1 at 200 grs. with a truly solid head. The 250 grs have a better MA and get you closer to 650 at 28" with a footer.
Henro went through all this on his thread and ended up with a GT 200 +250 up front and still only had 24.5% FOC with a 742r arrow.
30% and 650 is close to impossible with a high speed bow.
On another note, I've shot a nice boar right through the humerus not too long ago. The arrow snapped clean off behind the footer yet the head/insert went through the bone, the heart, the rest of the body and flew off into the woods behind it. I think that a footer gives the arrow enough time to work correctly before the carbon snaps and allows the BH's momentum to do the job on a hard bone contact.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I'll check out the cutthroats. So you're saying the footer only needs to extend 1/2" past the insert and doesn't necessarily need to be 3" long? Would the longer footer be stronger?


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

It's probable that the longer footer will be better although I never tested it.
I like single bevel blades but the VPA sure is tempting as double bevel. They have a large weight range and are solid steel.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

i tried building a 625gr high FOC arrow, and with my draw length, bow weight, and speed, i ended up at 641gr at 17% FOC. i can increase my FOC some if i want to go up to 700gr or so and still be spined just fine, but it will not be anywhere near 30%. i'm not sure it really exists for a high speed bow like you have. good luck though, its fun to tinker


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## Mauritian (Sep 30, 2014)

Don't tinker too much. It gets expensive.
:wink:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

cooperjd said:


> i tried building a 625gr high FOC arrow, and with my draw length, bow weight, and speed, i ended up at 641gr at 17% FOC. i can increase my FOC some if i want to go up to 700gr or so and still be spined just fine, but it will not be anywhere near 30%. i'm not sure it really exists for a high speed bow like you have. good luck though, its fun to tinker


Not really a speed bow mathews no cam or slow cam as some like to call it LOL


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Mauritian said:


> Don't tinker too much. It gets expensive.
> :wink:


You can buy individual arrows and components through Lancaster. Cheap way to experiment.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Well did anyone kill with a 650 grain arrow this year. I moved away from that weight but i think i am leaning back towards it more now. Looking at building another arrow 300 spine vap with 92 grain insert and a 225-250 grain tip. Should put me in the 570-580 grain range with 27-28% FOC. Gotta sacrifice some speed though. Gonna run the one of the local shops to pic up a couple shafts to tinker with. If anyone did kill please post up some kill pics with 650 grain or single bevel kills this year


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok guys there is a new 650 challenge. Grizzly Stik has teamed up with Victory archery to build a new arrow on the .204 platform. It is tapered and also will include the victory ice coating. This will be a huge improvement from previous models they have had in the past.


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> Ok guys there is a new 650 challenge. Grizzly Stik has teamed up with Victory archery to build a new arrow on the .204 platform. It is tapered and also will include the victory ice coating. This will be a huge improvement from previous models they have had in the past.


I saw that! They have also expanded there test packs to include the ability to test 2 arrows built however you want. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I already ordered mine! LOL only downside is they wont ship til mid October


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## Ryjax (Mar 3, 2014)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I already ordered mine! LOL only downside is they wont ship til mid October


That's the reason I haven't done it yet lol. I don't want to get them right in the middle of season. Let me know what you think when you get them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SKYNET KC (Jul 14, 2015)

Gonna be a lot of us testing this system out. The Momentum Black was a damn fine arrow, and I'd still shoot them over anything else. But the TDT is going to be something special.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

SKYNET KC said:


> Gonna be a lot of us testing this system out. The Momentum Black was a damn fine arrow, and I'd still shoot them over anything else. But the TDT is going to be something special.


I agree Grizzly stik teamed up with victory for these and they should be pretty sweet from the way it sounds. I had the older momentums and i didn't care for them. They have resolved a ton of issues i had with them, so i'm patiently waiting on my test kit in the mail for the new ones!


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## SKYNET KC (Jul 14, 2015)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I agree Grizzly stik teamed up with victory for these and they should be pretty sweet from the way it sounds. I had the older momentums and i didn't care for them. They have resolved a ton of issues i had with them, so i'm patiently waiting on my test kit in the mail for the new ones!


What issues were you having with your Momentum Blacks? Still have them?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I never has the blacks. I had the arrows before the blacks


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## SKYNET KC (Jul 14, 2015)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> I never has the blacks. I had the arrows before the blacks


Alaskan's? Ultra FOC?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

SKYNET KC said:


> Alaskan's? Ultra FOC?


No they were the momentum's but not the blacks. Those things were absolute logs. Big fat arrows and the ferrule of the broad head was slightly smaller than the shaft of the arrow. Stuck in targets because of the glossy finish. The nocks kept splitting. I liked the concept but they needed to tweak their product and i believe they have with this newest version they are coming out with now hopefully. Still patiently waiting on my new test pack to be shipped!


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## SKYNET KC (Jul 14, 2015)

bowhunter.bk85 said:


> No they were the momentum's but not the blacks. Those things were absolute logs. Big fat arrows and the ferrule of the broad head was slightly smaller than the shaft of the arrow. Stuck in targets because of the glossy finish. The nocks kept splitting. I liked the concept but they needed to tweak their product and i believe they have with this newest version they are coming out with now hopefully. Still patiently waiting on my new test pack to be shipped!


Little birdie told me they'll be shipping in about 2 weeks.


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Good news cause they are way behind on ship time! Was supposed to be out in mid October


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## SKYNET KC (Jul 14, 2015)

People are starting to get their orders now!


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

Hmm wonder when I'm gonna get mine?


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## SKYNET KC (Jul 14, 2015)

I saw several people today posting about getting emails today, then a few guys posted about getting them. They were all 170 spine guys, which were the minority i'm sure. What spine did you order? Or did you start with a test pack?


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## bowhunter.bk85 (Aug 25, 2012)

I called them up and they said that victory had these back ordered and they wouldn't be out to mid december now. Each time i call it's like they keep getting pushed back a full month. I ordered these things back in mid September


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## Mr.Poindexter (May 29, 2016)

I had the prototypes with me on my hunting trip to the Kalahari and Namibia and they worked well. They were so "new" that they didn't even have any painting/printing on them. I was happy with their performance. I will need to get some more 650 grain arrows though. I actually had a lion pull one out from his shoulder and bite it in half. I have both ends, teeth marks in them. Surreal and crazy experience, but they worked well.


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## Michael Myers (Nov 13, 2008)

who's still up for this challenge?or has the fad passed us all by now........just in time for the fall season....:darkbeer:


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Seems like Alaska Bowhunting Supply took something of a beating on their first round of specialty arrows that evidently *weren't* up to every challenge. 
So they upgraded to a much better shaft and came back swinging.

I hope it all works out well for them, for Victory, and for their customers who want strong, heavy arrows...


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