# Is traditional archery going down the wrong path? (a very short rant)



## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Yup...there is more to archery than just tournament shooting...

Mac


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Destroyer said:


> Too much focus on *competition*, too much focus on *form* and shooting it the 'correct' way, too much focus on *tuning*, too many choices....
> 
> Might be hypercritical of me since I push the ILF bows here all the time and I love the tuning stuff but I wonder if it just too much, too complex when the whole idea of trad imo is to escape from complexity, a more simplistic archery.
> 
> Opinions?


I think it's different strokes for different folks.

The problem is when someone doesn't know what their specific goals are and they get caught up in something that doesn't really fit their goals.

Everything you mentioned can be important...but an archer really should know their goals and have realistic expectations before getting to caught up into something.

A person really should do their homework or just basically ask more questions rather than follow something blindly.

Ray :shade:


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I have no Bowhunting where I live so competition is my focus, I think it's the goal of most Archers to be as accurate as possible and I'm glad to see over the last 6-7 years people paying a lot more attention to good form/tuning, as for equipment, well that's purely personal, I have English Longbows right up to high tec bows like a Bernardini Nilo with rest/plunger etc, I enjoy all my bows as they each offer a unique challenge. 

My Longbow/Woodie Nat records and Recurve records are quite close, the only difference is with the Recurve I'm shooting close to my records every week, with the longbow it only happens 3-4 time a year.


----------



## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

I would have to respectfully disagree. The main reason I shoot the bow and arrow is for hunting purposes. Now that I am shooting traditional I can't get enough information on form and tuning!! The more I can read and learn the more efficient I will be. The tournament video that was posted by Ranger was great. Just watching the different shooting styles and form of all the pros was fascinating to a newbie like myself.

I say keep all the info coming!!


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Anything to improve my skills and accuracy is a good thing IMO. Nobody is forcing me to do this so when it stops being enjoyable I'll stop doing it. Archery is like most hobbies, it can be as formal or informal as you like.


----------



## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

You still have a stick...and a string...and an arrow. That's as simple as it can get. 

I want to enjoy this simplicity, so the better tuned by setup is, and the better I can repeat the same shooting sequence, the more consistent and accurate ill be. 

Is that not what this forum subsection is about? Learning about shooting, tuning, and equipment?


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I shoot barebow for the simplicity. When I want better accuracy/adjustability, I shoot my compounds. I like them all.


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

For those that shot stickbows 40 years ago we're coming back to the original path......


----------



## drewsumrell (Dec 4, 2011)

I suppose any activity or sport can get to a point where it's "over the top", but since my return to archery after a long absence, I've found this forum and a couple others to be very informative and educational. I typically only read and/or socialize in areas that are helpful or interesting to me. Certainly no one is forcing anything on me. I got back to sticks and strings for it's simplicity, but I also want to learn to be a good archer and at least build my own arrows. If I get bored with all this, I'll be gone!!!


----------



## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

I actually think we are doing our best to shoot as best as we can and there should be absolutely nothing wrong with that. Heck English longbow archers competed all of the time besides trying to arrow a knight. 
The issue at hand is more are coming from the compound to the stickbow and they are trying to replicate how they approach archery with a compound to the stickbow and that does not work. So it takes a lot of work to shoot a stickbow correctly, you can get away with sloppy form using a compound, you can't get away with it using a stickbow. 
Think of it this way, there are no gimmicks/toys to get rid of target panic with a stickbow, yet take a look on the compound side and look at all of the "accessories" available to help rid yourself of TP. You can't take that approach with a longbow or recurve.

And before anyone thinks I hate compounds or am bashing them, let me say I own a Mathews Z7 Extreme and I love it. In fact working hard on my trad form has made me a much better compound shooter.


----------



## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Personally , I did not have hands on teaching of the finer points of trad, but with that said there are generally clubs somewhat close to most not all people, go shoot at some and trad shooters are very helpful. With that said, I only shoot with others once a month and it's a
Friendly 3d shoot. I immolated mr. Hills aiming from "hunting the hard way" I started shooting jan 1st this year, my first score was a 160 ish, in feb I scored 269 and last month I took second place with a 344 with a $42 dollar recurve. Winning score was 353, I posted more on it in my post in the Fred bear shoot. All I do is shoot , I don't think of gaps or scores, it's awsome. But I don't shoot past 40 yards so I don't need the tune of someone shooting 80 yards. I just have fun, and I ONLY BH tune, the rest was just to complicated for ME. It's all personal. I look forward to winning the longbow division hen I get kegans new longbow when it comes out.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I started with recurves and I don't use them because they are what people call traditional

Any advancements in performance with the equipement or with my personal form that helps me be a more effective shooter I welcome


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I feel compelled to reply since this hits close to home, if not meant specifically for me. I will be as honest and up front with you as I can. I've been shooting a bow since I was about 3 years old. My father hunted with a recurve and shot tournament archery. That was 40 years ago. Since then I've shot compound, recurve, longbow and selfbows. About 3 years ago I decided to really learn to shoot well and see just how accurate I could get. As I began trying to learn everything about every style of shooting and aiming I did begin to rapidly improve. Suddenly, I realized that that all that time that I had been frustrated shooting over deer backs from a tree stand and missing 3D targets with my buddies wasn't necessary. There are ways to shoot more accurately. I'm not pushing anyone to be a gap shooter or a stringwalking or to shoot upright for that matter...and you are getting it for free. I do know, through personal experience, what tends to make people shoot better but that is for them. The purpose of my videos is exposure. I want people to know what they don't know and for some fine tune what that have a working knowledge of. We have a wonderful community of folks and the sport is growing. I do think that tournament archery will make you a better shot in the woods, be it stumping or hunting. What I am showing is not complicated. It's really not. But if you never try it or experiment then you simply will never know. My best to you and your shooting. If I can every be of any help just PM me, but please don't think I'm being judgmental or saying you should shoot a given way. Knowledge is power and experience is priceless. Sincerely,


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

No, I don't think it's going down the wrong path, fact is there are many paths to take in trad archery and we have the opportunity in this day and age to find the one that fits each of us the best, and freedom of choice is always a good thing, if you don't like a certain genre' of archery....Don't do it, simple as that.....but as primarily a hunter, I'm glad to see the focus on form,accuracy and competition, I really am....I'll never ,ever knock anyone for trying to better themselves, or trying to better our sport either, Trad archers as a whole are some of the best people I have ever met, and they sure didn't get that way being complacent, they strive to do better....and there's nothing at all wrong with that.


----------



## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

I don't think it's going down the wrong path...I think it's just going down different paths....I shoot indoors, because it forces me to work on form...and concentration...I am trying to shoot field/hunter shoots this year....for some of the same reasons...plus...I feel any chance I get to shoot and practice only helps me when hunting season rolls around...the more I shoot, the better I hope to get.....

Before compounds, people shot target with stickbows.....it seems nowaday, with some exceptions, that stickbows and target shooting aren't compatible....indoors, at one distance, it helps with form.....outdoors, in field and hunter rounds...although I don't actually think about yardage....I know the markers, and somewhere in the recesses of my brain, the distance and where to aim/shoot/whatever method you use...becomes ingrained...at least for me...3d's,, I shoot to get ready to hunt and also have a good time...

Reading, trying different methods of shooting, watching videos...going to clinics....I don't see where someone trying to improve their shooting is the wrong path....elevated rests are nothing new....in the early days folks were trying many things to improve....

If you like to compete...great...if you just hunt....great....but any time you get to shoot your bow...is a win-win situation.....wrong path?....NAH...different paths...YES......what appeals to one may not to another....


Lee


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

How can you possibly have to much emphases on form and tuning? 

You want to see exactly how poor your form and or tuning is strap a big broad head on. I was hunting with my recurves way before I was punching foam and I am here to tell you if you are going to hit what you want with a broadhead you had better have your form and tune down pat.

Matt


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I went thru the adventure of archery back in the 50s and 60s and even tho I gave it with the advent of the compound, it was still in my blood and sometime after all the distractions of life, I got the urge to try slinging arrows again. So after laying off during the 70s, 80s and 90s (days filled with raising a family, golf and work on the railroad) I took up the bow again and haven't looked back. I shot only compound bows because I was enthralled with the accuracy of them. But what sent me down the right path, the path back to the recurve bows was the gadgetry of wheelie bows. I want the simplicity of the stick bow and if it involves a few add ons, its still the simplest form of archery and I love it. To me the path that is right and has the excitement of pure archery is the stickbow and there is no other path greater to me. Yes, we are on the right path if we don't strangle it with confusion and complicate it..........


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I think the beauty of any recreational endeavor is that you can take it in any direction (or level) you choose. After all, it's your activity, it belongs to you.

After visiting the traditional archery/bowhunting forums for well over a decade, I've come to the conclusion that there are basically two types of people that visit them.

There are those that see "traditional archery" as *"something they do,"* and there are those that see traditional archery as *"who they are."*

For the *"something they do"* crowd, what others choose to do is really irrelevant. If it's not something they enjoy, they simply move on and look for those things that match what they enjoy. For example, I happen to shoot a metal riser, ILF rig. That's what I enjoy. If I see a thread about selfbows, I just move on. Very seldom will I even click on it. It just doesn't interest me. Nor does it bother me if others choose that type of thing.

On the other hand, for the *"its who I am"* crowd, if what others are doing doesn't match what they are doing, they take it as a personal affront to who they are. They seem to be personally offended by other methods, styles, or techinques. After all, why wouldn't they? They see it as a threat to "who they are." It's more than a passtime, it's more than a hobby, it's part of their identity.

In my opinion, there are certain things that are pretty much universal when it comes to archery. The quest for accuracy happens to be one of them. How far one chooses to go in terms of technique or equipment is a personal decision, but it certainly shouldn't offend anyone.

KPC


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents - 

Without "competition" there's not only no benchmark of your ability, there's really no reason to improve. Without "form", there's no foundation to shooting. 

Years, ok, decades ago, before compounds became mainstream, most clubs and ranges held "competitions" several times a week. I dare say, in those times the average stickbow shooter was a damn sight better than the average shooter today, both on paper and fur (we didn't have foam back then).

All we have today is the Internet, telling people to do whatever they like, and it's OK to suck (and be proud of it).

In short, yes, IMHO some parts "traditional archery" are going in the wrong direction. 

Viper1 out.


----------



## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Yeah I am just shocked how this "we're hunters vs you target folks" view continues.....I guess my first question to those of you that think those of us target folks tune too much, worry about form too much, etc, do you think that doesnt apply to you? Are you alright with wounding animals and not making clean shots? Ofcourse many wouldnt admit that they are doing that anyway from the sounds of it, but how can you make clean kills and good shots when your form is off and your equipment is not tuned? Sorry it wont happen, not like the bow knows if your a hunter or target shooter. So yeah I agree with Viper, it is the wrong direction to just start flinging arrows regardless if your tuned or not, practice correctly or not, etc.....The bottom line is we should all be having fun, and that level of fun is and will be different for each of us, but to not want to be the best at what we do is just a foriegn thought to me.


----------



## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I'am sure the first time two people met with sticks & strings there was competition, it's human nature. I know for me, the biggest competition is with myself. I think the only wrong path is if you force your way/style/bow on someone else, I don't see anyone having all the answers. For me, I think were living in the best of times in Traditional Archery, you can go as simple or as complex as you wish, I'am amazed at all the choices we have today, & the support you can find on the internet, you can talk to people around the world, that are enjoying the same things you are, if your interest is a selfbow to a ILF type bow, look at all the help & bows there is/are. Look at all the bowyers around today, I think it's great.


----------



## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

There were many times in my life that I’ve been wrong. One of my most egregious is one incident that I remember that happened many years ago. As a young aspiring archer I was a member of my university’s archery team. One day while we were practicing, our coach walks onto the practice field accompanied by a man dressed in suit and tie and looking very businesslike. It turns out he was a sales rep from an archery manufacturer and had some “new” bows he wanted us to try. These were the first compound bows we had ever seen. We were aware of this “budding” technology, but had never seen or shot them. Well, we teased and kidded with him, and afterward I thought to myself this poor guy was going to starve. I, and my teammates, concluded that these bows were just a passing fancy, and no one would take them seriously. As I look back on that conclusion now, some fifty odd years later, I’m humbled by just how wrong I was.

The question put before us is traditional archery going down the wrong path? Well, I think those halcyon days of traditional archery are gone, probably never to return. The world is a much different place. Take this forum for example. Never, in my wildest dreams would I ever have imagined that it would be possible to type out this little essay, and have it instantly read by individuals all over the world! I guess I’m pretty simple minded, but I’m constantly amazed by this. Time is the culprit here, the demands on one’s time pulls him or her in so many different directions. Having said that, I’m encouraged by the fact that traditional archery is going down any path at all. Whether one aspires to compete at an elite level, hunt game, or just shoot their bow and arrows in their back yard, all are a valid way of enjoying this hobby. So my answer is no, I don’t think the path is wrong.

In conclusion, I’d just like to say, that speaking from my own experience, I would hate to think of all the good friends, all the fun, and all the enjoyable fellowship, that I would have missed, had I chosen not to enter competitions on any level.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I voted yes...but only cause it seems to me that the lines have become blurred...cause I have a real problem identifying shooting twenty yard indoor with what for all the world looks like a girly weight Olympic bow sans sights and calling it "TRAD".


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

From what you asked I don't see that there is a direction. None at all. Only individuals. I have gotten better due to ranter B posting videos showing how form affects shooting but totally ignored his video on gap shooting as it isn't something I am interested in doing. See everyone takes the advice they see as for them and leaves what they don't. ILF bows will not be the only bows purchased any time soon at all either. Some will not have anything to do with them. How is this for goals. Not to loose too many arrows when shooting 3D. Take a few deer with the recurve and enjoy shooting every day.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Ranger B said:


> I feel compelled to reply since this hits close to home, if not meant specifically for me. I will be as honest and up front with you as I can. I've been shooting a bow since I was about 3 years old. My father hunted with a recurve and shot tournament archery. That was 40 years ago. Since then I've shot compound, recurve, longbow and selfbows. About 3 years ago I decided to really learn to shoot well and see just how accurate I could get. As I began trying to learn everything about every style of shooting and aiming I did begin to rapidly improve. Suddenly, I realized that that all that time that I had been frustrated shooting over deer backs from a tree stand and missing 3D targets with my buddies wasn't necessary. There are ways to shoot more accurately. I'm not pushing anyone to be a gap shooter or a stringwalking or to shoot upright for that matter...and you are getting it for free. I do know, through personal experience, what tends to make people shoot better but that is for them. The purpose of my videos is exposure. I want people to know what they don't know and for some fine tune what that have a working knowledge of. We have a wonderful community of folks and the sport is growing. I do think that tournament archery will make you a better shot in the woods, be it stumping or hunting. What I am showing is not complicated. It's really not. But if you never try it or experiment then you simply will never know. My best to you and your shooting. If I can every be of any help just PM me, but please don't think I'm being judgmental or saying you should shoot a given way. Knowledge is power and experience is priceless. Sincerely,


:thumb:


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Oh and viper you have to understand what you typed applies to archery in general not just the ivory halls of traditional archery. Most "archers" I know actually seldom shoot at all. I bet most of those on here who actually have a passion for the sport shoot more between key strokes than other "archers" do all year. That is why I live in Southern Illinois where archery and bow hunting should be king and we don't even have enough interest in shooting bows to support regular competitions. I couldn't even find likely two a month within driving distance.


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

MrSinister said:


> From what you asked I don't see that there is a direction. None at all. Only individuals. I have gotten better due to ranter B posting videos showing how form affects shooting but totally ignored his video on gap shooting as it isn't something I am interested in doing. See everyone takes the advice they see as for them and leaves what they don't. ILF bows will not be the only bows purchased any time soon at all either. Some will not have anything to do with them. How is this for goals. Not to loose too many arrows when shooting 3D. Take a few deer with the recurve and enjoy shooting every day.


Your of the same opinion as myself......I'm out to compete alright but its mostly between me, the target and myself that I compete. I love to shoot out back in the yard and go to a 3-D shoot every now and then.....I'm liking my ILF bow and I don't care what others shoot, thats their option and I'm all for it.....To me. a bow is a bow as long as it don't have wheels and sights. Well, they are bows too but I've gone back primitive to a certain extent......


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Ranger B said:


> I feel compelled to reply since this hits close to home, if not meant specifically for me. I will be as honest and up front with you as I can. I've been shooting a bow since I was about 3 years old. My father hunted with a recurve and shot tournament archery. That was 40 years ago. Since then I've shot compound, recurve, longbow and selfbows. About 3 years ago I decided to really learn to shoot well and see just how accurate I could get. As I began trying to learn everything about every style of shooting and aiming I did begin to rapidly improve. Suddenly, I realized that that all that time that I had been frustrated shooting over deer backs from a tree stand and missing 3D targets with my buddies wasn't necessary. There are ways to shoot more accurately. I'm not pushing anyone to be a gap shooter or a stringwalking or to shoot upright for that matter...and you are getting it for free. I do know, through personal experience, what tends to make people shoot better but that is for them. The purpose of my videos is exposure. I want people to know what they don't know and for some fine tune what that have a working knowledge of. We have a wonderful community of folks and the sport is growing. I do think that tournament archery will make you a better shot in the woods, be it stumping or hunting. What I am showing is not complicated. It's really not. But if you never try it or experiment then you simply will never know. My best to you and your shooting. If I can every be of any help just PM me, but please don't think I'm being judgmental or saying you should shoot a given way. Knowledge is power and experience is priceless. Sincerely,


Sorry I didn't see your post before posting my first one. Thanks again for the time you have taken to share what you have learned with all of us.


----------



## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

My wife and I decided to get back into archery after being off for 40+ years. We only shot inexpensive long bows. I spent 2 or 3 weeks searching the web for information. We had already decided that we wanted to go recurve, so my search was toward trad archery. What I have found over the past 2 months of reading this forum and other archery forums is that there is mostly emphasis on perfection, with high end bows, perfectly tuned arrows, top end sights, plungers and even finger tabs. There is comparatively little on just enjoying shooting. We just want to have fun shooting at various distances in the back yard, but to find out what we need to shoot well enough to make it fun. We don't want to shoot at 70m, spend $250 on a sight or $500+ on a bow. People say that a Cartel $50 sight is junk. Perhaps it is for somebody shooting a 40# or 50#+ bow, but it seems to be fine for my 23# DW and I suspect it will be too when I move up to 30#. I have no plans to go higher than that.

The point that I am trying to make is that there is not much discussion for a purely recreational shooter - those who don't expect to compete or hunt. I'm not faulting this forum, as that is normally the case with any forum on any subject. All of these forums are normally populated by people who are very dedicated to whatever the subject is and those asking for help are normally wanting to compete. The recreational shooter who is just trying to improve is sort of left out. However, despite that, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this forum and have learned much.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

It was only 13-14 years ago when I was being accused of being a cheat and ruining the sport, they even tried to change the tourney rules to stop me shooting my make of Longbow.......my crime, not shooting a Hill Longbow Instinctively or squatting like Fred G, I shot a 21st Edge and Gapped and nothing in the rules said I had to shoot a Hill bow or how I aimed.. 

I'm glad to see today *most* people attitudes have changed.


----------



## eminart (Apr 2, 2012)

After many years of high tech compounds and 3D shooting, I got burned out. I'm just coming back to archery, after about 10 years with very little shooting. And I'm going tradtional. I want a longbow, a handful of arrows, and not much else. I even plan to do most of my hunting from the ground. I don't want any part of "traditonal" bows with machined risers, plunger rests, and sights. 

That being said, there's nothing wrong with "high tech" archery, but it is its own thing, and that's the thing I wanted to escape.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Years, ok, decades ago, before compounds became mainstream, most clubs and ranges held "competitions" several times a week. I dare say, in those times the average stickbow shooter was a damn sight better than the average shooter today, both on paper and fur (we didn't have foam back then).


Let's not forget that decades ago *"the average stickbow shooter"* was the average *archer*. Stickbows were all there was. The average *"archer"* today, (all disciplines included) is actually better than those of yesteryear. 

The problem (if you call it that) we have is that while ALL of the best archers of yesteryear shot stickbows, many of the best *"archers"* today have never picked one up.

Lets assume that one in ten archers today (at least in the US) shoots a stickbow. That means that 90% of the talent pool has been removed from that particular discipline. To then make judgements about the "average" proficiency level, is somewhat misleading.

KPC


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Oldnewbie -

I'm sorry you got that impression, but I'm not quite sure where it came from. The most often recommended bow on this and at least one other forum, is one that retails for about $130. ILF bows can be gotten for a little more than twice that. eBay is also recommended for vintage bows. 

Regarding sights, a lot of that comes from experience. In fact, the $20 Cartel sight will literally out last their sights in the $50 - 100 range, with the latter coming loose after a few weeks or months. The first "sight" my students use is free, and usually picked up from the range floor...) For those more serious into Olympic competition, yeah, that $260 sight really is a must. 

As far as backyard shooting and "just having" fun, it's been my experience that most adults (and oddly enough, kids too) find archery a lot more fun when they are hitting what they are aiming at with some regularity (it also saves on arrow expenses). So, in that regard, yes there is some work or effort involved, but it's just part of the journey. And frankly, learning to do it right the first time can save a lot of frustration later on. 

There are always those who tout high end equipment (production or custom), and those with enough expendable cash to buy it (as well as those who like bragging about it). It's rarely recommended for new or returning shooters, though. 

eminart -

The fact that you got "burned out" with the high tech modern equipment has little to do with the equipment and more to do with your personality. If what your doing now works for you, that's great, but you'll see as many "trad" types going overboard with "custom" bows, wood arrows and just looking the part. It's not the equipment or style - it's the personality. 

With stickbows (anytype) or compounds, you can get as high tech or as simple as you like. The qualm I have is with people who think being "trad" is an excuse to suck.

Viper1 out.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

GEREP said:


> Let's not forget that decades ago *"the average stickbow shooter"* was the average *archer*. Stickbows were all there was. The average *"archer"* today, (all disciplines included) is actually better than those of yesteryear.
> 
> The problem (if you call it that) we have is that while ALL of the best archers of yesteryear shot stickbows, many of the best *"archers"* today have never picked one up.
> 
> ...


Never thought about that but you are dead on. Most of those who can shoot well never shoot a recurve at all. I always said someone like Chance could beat all of us with a mop with a string on it just imagine if that is what he did shoot LOL.


----------



## spinsheet (Oct 30, 2011)

It was all a bit overwhelming for me here at first. I'm sure that I asked some pretty simplistic questions (and sure that I will again) but so many people here patiently answered them, as they have hundreds of times before. I finally feel that I am finally at the point where I can judge for myself how far I want to take something, be it equipment or tuning. I'm happy with my $130 barebow and $45/doz arrows. I brushed up on the tuning techniques just so I would have an understanding of the physics of shooting and now go for the low hanging fruit. I guess you could say that I tune up to 90% and leave the other 10% for those who can tell the difference.

I guess that my point is that you can make this as complicated or as simple as you want depending on what you want to get out of this. All in all I find that this forum is very friendly and helpful to the recreational shooter, of which I consider myself. It's always good knowing that if I want to take it up a notch that the expertise is available.


----------



## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Oldnewbie -
> 
> I'm sorry you got that impression, but I'm not quite sure where it came from. The most often recommended bow on this and at least one other forum, is one that retails for about $130. ILF bows can be gotten for a little more than twice that. eBay is also recommended for vintage bows.
> 
> ...


I have read a lot of posts on this and other archery forums, although I only belong to this one. From the discussions that I have read, ILF bows and $250 sights are what are most recommended for beginners asking about equipment. The reasoning is normally that those will last the beginner for a long time as they progress over time. While that is likely the best recommendation for someone who expresses the desire to compete at a higher level and will continue in the sport, it is likely a waste of money for the recreational shooter.

As far as sights coming apart after a few months, that would have to depend on how much vibration they are seeing. A 50# DW bow without any stabilizer or damper will be much harder on a sight than a 30# DW bow with a stabilizer or damper. I can also see why a $20 sight will last longer than a $50 sight of the same quality. The $20 sight has a 3 or 4 inch extension, while the least expensive $50 sight has a 9 or 10 inch extension. The longer extension will result in much more vibratory motion at the end of the arm and more stress on the base mounting point.

I do agree that it is more fun when a person is hitting what they are aiming for, but I would rather be having fun putting arrows in the 5 to 10 rings at the distance meant for the target face then putting arrows in the 7 to 10 rings and spending most of my time adjusting plungers, stabilizer weights, arrow matching, etc. I'm sure that there a lot of recreational archers who think that way, as well as many who will spend most of their time tuning to perfection.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

TheOldNewbie said:


> I have read a lot of posts on this and other archery forums, although I only belong to this one. From the discussions that I have read, ILF bows and $250 sights are what are most recommended for beginners asking about equipment. The reasoning is normally that those will last the beginner for a long time as they progress over time. While that is likely the best recommendation for someone who expresses the desire to compete at a higher level and will continue in the sport, it is likely a waste of money for the recreational shooter.


Wow. With all due respect, you must be reading different posts than I am. I've been a member of this site for almost a decade now and for the most part when a beginner (and identifies himself as such) asks for advice getting started, the *vast* majority of the time he is told to start *"cheap"* and *"light."*

At least that's what I've seen.

KPC


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

spinsheet said:


> I guess that my point is that you can make this as complicated or as simple as you want depending on what you want to get out of this.


Exactly! :thumbs_up

Like I said...it's different strokes for different folks.

It's *only* the wrong path if it doesn't lead the archer to where they want to go....which is why it's important for an archer to determine where they want to go (goals) and studing maps (techniques) or asking for directions on how to get there.

It's up to us with more experience to ask questions to know where that archer wants to go before we give directions.

When an archer does it blindly or when someone is giving directions without knowing exactly where the archer wants to go....it makes perfect sense why someone new can get lost and end up somewhere they didn't want to go.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

As long as archery remains in the "sporting goods" department, and remains a "shooting sport", whether you shoot at competitions, shoot alone for fun, or hunt, there cannot be anything wrong with getting the most out or yourself and your equipment, same as any sport - unless one is the rare bird who just does it to be mediocre at said sport and does it just for the sake of doing something.

If archery is a fashion statement for you, yes, many you see will have poor taste in fashion according to your tastes in fashion.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

What we do is simple, not easy. This is no place to hide from target panic with your compound. If you happy flinging arrows, more power to ya, I like to hit what I'm shooting at - to each thier own. I too, do not like to use Trad as an excuse to shoot poorly. Accuracy for me will never match what I can do with a compound, but it's getting closer each season.


----------



## eminart (Apr 2, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Oldnewbie -
> 
> 
> eminart -
> ...


No, you are misinterpreting what it is that I was burned out on. I didn't say I was burned out with "going overboard". I go all out with everything I do. I have ordered my first longbow from Bamabows, and while I'm waiting I've already made a leather back quiver, and am working on some "pretty" arrows. When I get it, I'll shoot it til my fingers fall off and will never be satisfied with how I'm shooting. But, what I got tired of, was modern archery and hunting. It's just too much like shooting a gun. 

With my target bows, I'd step up, consciously measure the yardage in my mind, adjust my mechanical sight, draw back my highly-engineered mass of pulleys and other components using my machined aluminum release trigger, look through my riflesque peep sight, hold the 15lbs of weight required after my cam rolled over, aim carefully through my sometimes magnified front scope for several seconds, and squeeze the trigger. Missing by more than an inch or two at 20 yards was rare. 

I want to take a stick and string, and use my BODY and mind to do all the work, like sinking a 3 pointer on the basketball court. 

And like I said, there's nothing wrong with high tech archery. I thought of getting back into it before I got the traditional itch. It's just not as appealing to me, and it is a different game. It's the difference between shooting long range rifle competitions and shooting sporting clays.


----------



## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

GEREP said:


> Wow. With all due respect, you must be reading different posts than I am. I've been a member of this site for almost a decade now and for the most part when a beginner (and identifies himself as such) asks for advice getting started, the *vast* majority of the time he is told to start *"cheap"* and *"light."*
> 
> At least that's what I've seen.
> 
> KPC


I'm not going to search again for discussions, so perhaps you are correct. However, I think it is interesting that the first trad bow purchase suggestion on the shootingthestickbow site is for the Hoyt Excel, with the recommendation being, "These days, I’m hard pressed to recommend anything other than an ILF rig for a new shooter." Most people think that Shooting the Stickbow is the best book for any trad archer. I have not gotten it, as I think that it is above my current interest, but have read excerpts and have to agree that it is probably the most comprehensive book on the subject. I have read many posts that echo the above sentiment.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Well on here I can tell you what you will hear beat liike a drum.....Get the Samick Sage and 30lb limbs. Reason. It is center shot so easy to start shooting not as hard to find arrows for, longer bow so easier to start shooting. Light draw weight so easy to start shooting costs very very little so easy on the pocket book. After that when you have shot it and love the sport they will suck you in to a nice ILF LOL:wink:


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

TheOldNewbie said:


> I think it is interesting that the first trad bow purchase suggestion on the shootingthestickbow site is for the Hoyt Excel, with the recommendation being, "These days, I’m hard pressed to recommend anything other than an ILF rig for a new shooter." Most people think that Shooting the Stickbow is the best book for any trad archer.


That might be true, but the Hoyt Excel and a set of entry level limbs can be had for about 200.00. That's pretty darn inexpensive for a quality setup to get started on. Other ILF risers can be had new for even cheaper than the Excel, but the Excel is a VERY nice riser for the money and can be used well into (or well past) the intermediate stage. The nice thing about ILF is that as the archer progresses, better limbs can be purchased without having to buy a new riser. If the new archer decided that the sport really isn't for him/her, ILF equipment is VERY easy to sell as thousands of other archers use the same system.

Very good advice if you ask me...

KPC


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think we've been heading the wrong direction for so long that getting back on track can feel strange to some.

We've been willing to make our choice of equipment an excuse to be poor archers, now that some people have rediscovered the truth the bar has been raised back to where it used to be.

-Grant


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Very profound Grant


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

grantmac said:


> I think we've been heading the wrong direction for so long that getting back on track can feel strange to some.
> 
> We've been willing to make our choice of equipment an excuse to be poor archers, now that some people have rediscovered the truth the bar has been raised back to where it used to be.
> 
> -Grant


You know, to a certain extent I think there is some truth to that. Just ten years ago, a lot of the people involved in traditional archery were what I call "reenactors." Not all, but many. They were happy enough "reenacting" a period, and not as concerned about the ifs, ands, and buts, about tuning, form, equipment, etc. (Please noet that I said "a lot", *NOT ALL*)

As "traditional" archery gains more in overall popularity, more and more of the people getting involved (many of which come from the compound ranks) are looking for more than the "reenactment" aspect of the sport.

They like the simplicity and nostalgia but they aren't willing to leave much on the table as far as performance and accuracy.

JMHO

KPC


----------



## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

GEREP said:


> That might be true, but the Hoyt Excel and a set of entry level limbs can be had for about 200.00. That's pretty darn inexpensive for a quality setup to get started on. Other ILF risers can be had new for even cheaper than the Excel, but the Excel is a VERY nice riser for the money and can be used well into (or well past) the intermediate stage. The nice thing about ILF is that as the archer progresses, better limbs can be purchased without having to buy a new riser. If the new archer decided that the sport really isn't for him/her, ILF equipment is VERY easy to sell as thousands of other archers use the same system.
> 
> Very good advice if you ask me...
> 
> KPC


A new Excel with Privilege limbs is $270. A complete Privilege package is less at $180. While I would like to have an Excel with Privilege limbs, the cost is above what I can easily afford, especially with my wife and I both shooting. Besides, your last post contradicts the post where you refuted me saying that ILF setups are recommended for starters. There is often a significant difference between what is best and what is necessary to enjoy any activity. I like to shoot pellet rifles, mainly at the 10m range in the basement. I would love to have a top of the line $3000 Olympic quality rifle, but I doubt that I would shoot a lot better than I shoot with a rifle that cost 1/10 the price. I don't disagree that an ILF rig is better in quality and expansion than the $95 Cartel Triple bow that my wife is using or the $125 W&W/KAP bow that I am using, but will they make a recreational shooter enjoy the sport any more. I doubt it.


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

JParanee said:


> I started with recurves and I don't use them because they are what people call traditional
> 
> Any advancements in performance with the equipement or with my personal form that helps me be a more effective shooter I welcome


Same here


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Destroyer said:


> Too much focus on *competition*, too much focus on *form* and shooting it the 'correct' way, too much focus on *tuning*, too many choices....
> 
> Might be hypercritical of me since I push the ILF bows here all the time and I love the tuning stuff but I wonder if it just too much, too complex when the whole idea of trad imo is to escape from complexity, a more simplistic archery.
> 
> Opinions?


I shoot buckets and basketballs.... dowels and branches.... :grin:


----------



## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

Like every other hobby/sport it just depends on how deep you want to get into it and how good you want to get at it. Not a question of right or wrong.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

TheOldNewbie said:


> A new Excel with Privilege limbs is $270. A complete Privilege package is less at $180. While I would like to have an Excel with Privilege limbs, the cost is above what I can easily afford, especially with my wife and I both shooting. Besides, your last post contradicts the post where you refuted me saying that ILF setups are recommended for starters. There is often a significant difference between what is best and what is necessary to enjoy any activity. I like to shoot pellet rifles, mainly at the 10m range in the basement. I would love to have a top of the line $3000 Olympic quality rifle, but I doubt that I would shoot a lot better than I shoot with a rifle that cost 1/10 the price. I don't disagree that an ILF rig is better in quality and expansion than the $95 Cartel Triple bow that my wife is using or the $125 W&W/KAP bow that I am using, but will they make a recreational shooter enjoy the sport any more. I doubt it.


That's fine. You get what you can afford. No shame in that. 

I don't think my posts contradict each other at all. When it comes to archery equipment, an Excel with a light set of entry level limbs is both "cheap and light." Is it the absolute cheapest? No, but I don't think I ever said to get the absolute cheapest. 

I'll still maintain that the Excel riser with a set of entry level limbs is one of the best values out there...whether or not you decide to advance...or quit.

KPC


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Everybody that comes to a forum is looking to improve something. This usually results in tinkering with things, the thing with a stick bow is that there aren't many things to tinker with so a stickbow shooter tinkers with arrow tuning and form because that's pretty much all that's available to tinker with.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Maybe instead of using the word "cheap" we should assign "value". I too think the Excel is excellent in "value" as the price is low enough to allow someone to try archery, getting the feel of shot and performance they would otherwise initially have to pay much more money towards. With "cheap", you may end up fighting other issues of suitability, fit, finish, and performance that would tilt the value meter the wrong direction and sour your taste for Trad archery at the very beginning.


----------



## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

GEREP said:


> I'll still maintain that the Excel riser with a set of entry level limbs is one of the best values out there...whether or not you decide to advance...or quit.
> 
> KPC


:thumbs_up


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> With stickbows (anytype) or compounds, you can get as high tech or as simple as you like. The qualm I have is with people who think being "trad" is an excuse to suck.


George Chapman had the same irritation, if I understood him correctly. Said that a lot of people wanted an excuse for missing. That's not to say that he had anything against more traditional bows. I understand he was quite the recurve shooter.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing the most to be the best shooters we can be. Nor is there anything wrong with doing it for fun. I also think that many of us like the idea of archery and our equipment as much as we like the shooting part. I like making wood arrows because i like the wood, the process. If I just wanted accurate, efficient, easy, and more time to shoot, I'd use carbon/aluminum exclusively.

In addition to being a little surprised at a short burst of FPS and low GPP obsessions, I guess what's interesting to me, having watched the traditional section of this forum, how wide a range 'traditional' covers. It's pretty much non-compound, from what I can see. Not so many years ago, not only did compound bows look entirely like an alien plot, if you had told me about ILF risers, stabilizers, sights, clickers, flipper rests, plunger buttons, whatever, I would have looked at you like you were out of your mind. When I thought archery, I thought stick/string/arrow. Then again, I had no concept of tuning anything either. Expanding knowledge and experience has been entirely positive. Now I enjoy even the alien plots. And, yes, I'm just as guilty about going overboard, though I can't say I've done it as well as many 

It's good to strive for excellence, to learn, and it's fine to collect, to tweak, to fidget, but the fun component, I think, is the point. So long as I get mine, you get yours, and neither conflict, I'm good with it!


----------



## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

MrSinister said:


> Oh and viper you have to understand what you typed applies to archery in general not just the ivory halls of traditional archery. Most "archers" I know actually seldom shoot at all. I bet most of those on here who actually have a passion for the sport shoot more between key strokes than other "archers" do all year. That is why I live in Southern Illinois where archery and bow hunting should be king and we don't even have enough interest in shooting bows to support regular competitions. I couldn't even find likely two a month within driving distance.


Well...depending on where in Southern Ill...if on the eastern side..you can always cross the Mississippi river...there are plenty of shoots over here..:wink:

Now...I will tell you this...and this is from a person spending most of their life growing up in the southern half of the state..there are way more archers than you realize unless things have changed drastically in the past 10 years.....Most of the archers I know..work for a living and are a good ways away from home and travel long distances to and from..or..they farm..and free time is limited..and too much extra home work to go to shoots..The one shoot they most used to go to is the one the Town Hall Archery used ( don't know if they still do ) to run at Mays town..and the other is down by Anna-Jonesburro..Upstate has plenty of shoots.. Most of the guys I used to shoot with..were like me..they would rather be spending their limited cash and time ..scouting..than going to shoots..finding decent public land that isn't over run is almost a full time job in itself.....Southern Illinois has a problem..and that is more private held land...than good public land to hunt..and with what they do have...it gets so crowed and crazy at what there is around gun season..most archers unless they are carrying a gun..won't leave their homes..and many do just that..they hunt bow hunt the week before shotgun season..but...be down around Trail of Tears opening week..or Bald Knob Cross..or any of the other large public areas...and you will see a bunch of guys..more than you think..

Check out Quail Club.com...River City Bowhunters.com..and Town Hall Archery.com...for more shoots..


Mac


----------



## RecurvesOnly (May 23, 2011)

I does seem that there is a strive for perfection by many in trad archery. When I was a teenager starting out, we accepted a slight fishtailing of arrows. Also, I can't get over the idea of "bare shaft tuning". I remember as kids we'd try an arrow with no feathers and you never knew what the thing would do, everyone hit the deck! I'm matched with 45# and 50# bows and 2018 & 2117 feather fletched arrows fly in like high speed darts, so I consider everything ok. 

All sports go with a strive for perfection. In golf, tennis, even fishing, you need to worry about the flex of this, the weight of that, etc. IN FACT I think basketball is the ONLY sport where they just say "here's the ball, go play".


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

RecurvesOnly said:


> IN FACT I think basketball is the ONLY sport where they say "here's the ball, go play".


LOL...I had to think about that one for a sec. I think soccer and football do that too...but either way...in most sports...the athlete does have an opportunity to make choices with some of the equipment. Golfers get to choose their clubs and balls. Baseball players get to choose their gloves and bats. Heck...even basketball players get to choose what shoes they want to wear...and we all know how big of an advantage a pair of Air Jordans can be :wink:

Again...it's really only the wrong path if the individual isn't happy with it. Who cares what Joe Blow down the road thinks. If he's that judgmental about someone because they don't fit the exact mold he has placed traditional archery into...he can keep his opinions to himself for all I care :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Is traditional archery going down the wrong path?


No! But there are those archers that are going down the wrong path, and those that are following the wrong mentor down the wrong path.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

WindWalker said:


> No! But there are those archers that are going down the wrong path, and those that are following the wrong mentor down the wrong path.


And who would that be. Man this is the high school side of the internet.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

If all you want to do is watch arrows fly, form and tuning aren't important. Just go out and fling 'em. 

But if you want to actually hit something on purpose, you need to pay attention to form and tuning.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to shoot a bow for ANY legal and safe reason. There should be no quarrel over who is doing it more "right". That's the point where it becomes a religeous discusion.

If you don't like the technical tuning stuff, don't worry about it. But don't tell the other guy who enjoys it, that he is wrong. He's not. And you're not wrong either until you try to impose your way over his. 

There are lots of levels to enjoying archery. From the high tech Olympic recurve to two sticks and a string. 

It's supposed to be fun!

JMHO,
Allen


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MrSinister said:


> And who would that be. Man this is the high school side of the internet.


Do you think it's impossible for someone to be lead down the wrong path?

Ray :shade:


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

I think we each have our path. I think it is there before us from before we are ever born. I think that just because we don't know the future that doesn't mean it hasn't been written. That is what I think. I also think back handed sniping of others is not polite.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

BLACK WOLF said:


> *Again...it's really only the wrong path if the individual isn't happy with it. Who cares what Joe Blow down the road thinks. If he's that judgmental about someone because they don't fit the exact mold he has placed traditional archery into...he can keep his opinions to himself for all I care* :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Nailed that one Ray...:thumb:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MrSinister said:


> I think it is there before us from before we are ever born. I think that just because we don't know the future that doesn't mean it hasn't been written.


I guess that depends on if you believe in freewill or not.

I believe God knows the path each and everyone of us will take...but He has allowed us to make our own choices rather than force us to follow a specific path against our will.



MrSinister said:


> I also think back handed sniping of others is not polite.


If comments are made truthfully and honestly...I don't really see them as being back handed sniping.

The truth is...some archers are lead down the wrong path based on their goals.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

I believe if you keep a steady bow hand and your form is solid, you will do good. Your style may not be like someone else thinks it should be but if you're hitting your mark...you're good.
Being successful at shooting both targets and live game [if you're a hunter] has to be a good thing. I do think we tend to over analyze things sometimes. If your goal is to be accurate out to 25 yards that's ok. If your goal is to be accurate out to 50 yards that's even better. Like someone said in the above post...different strokes. I also believe if you're a hunter you need to be prepared for a lot of different shot angles, cants, ect. You dont always have the opportunity to shoot the stance or position you do in your back yard.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Not to jack the thread any more but free will can exist with what I said. As I said we don't have a clue of the path before us as you said God does. He knows it and we are how shall I put it finding it LOL. This is all way too much for this thread though. Posting a statement of the phantom "some" can lead to hurting not only those intended to be pointed at as the false teachers of the bad archery what ever that is but can also hurt others who are helping people every day to be better archers but mistakenly think that they might be the phantom "some" in the post. They they might stop helping all of us who need good advice. I know I have got much better with advice I have got here and there is some that I found not to work but I don't think any of it is given as false advice it just doesn't work for everyone.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MrSinister said:


> I know I have got much better with advice I have got here and there is some that I found not to work but I don't think any of it is given as false advice it just doesn't work for everyone.


I guess it really depends on if you believe the person giving the advice has bad intentions or not.

I honestly believe that there isn't one person in this forum who is purposely giving bad advice. I believe everyone here who is giving advice is honestly trying to help people...but that does NOT mean that bad advice can't be given. There are those that have convinced themselves and others that their way is the only way...and I strongly disagree with that.

Ray :shade:


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Man this is the high school side of the internet._


Nothing "high school" about it. I have been in the game long enough to know that there have always been those that walked the wrong path, and those that allowed themselves to unwittingly be led down the wrong path by the wrong person; exacerbated by the Internet. Some eventually turn things around and become proficient. Some become so confused and frustrated they just give up.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

okay then pontificate. What is this wrong path. Why not spare us from us by exposing it here and now. Simple as that. Tell us all you know about the wrong path that it might be more easily seen and recognized for what it is. Being in the game very long doesn't necessarily make one more or less right. I for one though am always open to hear what one believes is right or wrong. I just think it is always wrong to leave it in the form of a phantom form of "some" that can drive off any that might think it is their teachings that are being attacked and in all the refutes of my statement no one has countered that part of my point.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Great thing about a forum like this is that you do not have to read every post (or you can read for the fun of it). I have stuff I am interested in and I can find most of it covered somewhere in this forum. I am not a hunter but I find it interesting to hear that perspective. I believe that if somebody asks for help and wants to improve, then we should provide honest answers, instead of, "whatever works for you" or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If folks are interested in shooting for fun or relaxation, we should let them do so without critisizing how they shoot. Traditional is such a broad label with many interpretations. The most important thing is that we recognize that not everyone fits into our view of what traditional is, and that is a good thing.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MrSinister said:


> okay then pontificate. What is this wrong path. Why not spare us from us by exposing it here and now. Simple as that. Tell us all you know about the wrong path that it might be more easily seen and recognized for what it is. Being in the game very long doesn't necessarily make one more or less right. I for one though am always open to hear what one believes is right or wrong. I just think it is always wrong to leave it in the form of a phantom form of "some" that can drive off any that might think it is their teachings that are being attacked and in all the refutes of my statement no one has countered that part of my point.


uh?...i think i got this one fellers! :laugh:

To Me?..."The Wrong Path": would be the one where an archer..any archer...becomes so closed minded and un-teachable that they simply can't fathom that any other way but their own could ever possibly work for anyone else..do as i do...do as i say...or you're ignorant for even bothering to think of any other way than mine resulting in an acute case of insufferable azzholeitis...which in turn causes us all great pain and suffering.

and "that"...would be..."The Wrong Path"..i think...but i could be wrong as i always try to stay teachable and open-minded! :laugh:

L8R, Bill.


----------



## soaringeagle (Jun 2, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> I voted yes...but only cause it seems to me that the lines have become blurred...cause I have a real problem identifying shooting twenty yard indoor with what for all the world looks like a girly weight Olympic bow sans sights and calling it "TRAD".


not trying to be a jerk but rather provoke some thought. It appears that you shoot glass backed bows and think that ilf rigs may not be traditional. There are probably a bunch of selfbows may think they are traditional and we are not with our glass backed bows. I think the most important to keep in mind is that if we are pulling a string that will launch an arrow we are all archers. Archery is a personal journey, I'm cool with whatever you shoot as long as you bought it from me....lol


----------



## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

But don't we all have the right to be closed minded and unteachable? Who gets to say what's right or wrong in a harmless fun hobby like shooting arrows?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> Nothing "high school" about it. I have been in the game long enough to know that there have always been those that walked the wrong path, and those that allowed themselves to unwittingly be led down the wrong path by the wrong person; exacerbated by the Internet. Some eventually turn things around and become proficient. Some become so confused and frustrated they just give up.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Tab Bender said:


> But don't we all have the right to be closed minded and unteachable? Who gets to say what's right or wrong in a harmless fun hobby like shooting arrows?


I remember a fella I use to see at some of the shoots I went to, man ,he had an unorthodox style for sure...but you couldn't argue with where he put the arrows in the target. But, he wasn't moving his bow hand and he was focused on his target which are essentials in archery.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Tab Bender said:


> But don't we all have the right to be closed minded and unteachable? Who gets to say what's right or wrong in a harmless fun hobby like shooting arrows?


Everyone has the freedom and right to follow their own path...at least here in America...thankfully to the men and women who serve our armed forces.

Everyone also has the right to share their opinion about what is right and wrong...and than it's ultimately up to the individual to decide what they want to believe.

Here's an example...how would you answer a new archers question on what draw weight should they start with? What aiming technique should they try? What aspects of form should they begin to learn? Where should they anchor? Etc. Etc.

Depending on your answers...some may be spot on, some may be way off and depending on how you choose to approach these answers...it may help answer them more accurately.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

soaringeagle said:


> not trying to be a jerk but rather provoke some thought. It appears that you shoot glass backed bows and think that ilf rigs may not be traditional. There are probably a bunch of selfbows may think they are traditional and we are not with our glass backed bows. I think the most important to keep in mind is that if we are pulling a string that will launch an arrow we are all archers. Archery is a personal journey, I'm cool with whatever you shoot as long as you bought it from me....lol


No..it's not that i don't think ILF's arent trad..and i never said anything of the sort...and it's all jmho..but if i were lord of rulings?..to me?...there should be two classes out there...TH & CR...(trad hunter/competitive recurve)...in the TH class?..i would dictate two rules...1. shooting must be done off the shelf (no plungers/flippers) and 2?..the bows must be of a suitable hunting weight which i would mandate as being min 40#s (as that is the min in many states for bowhunters) except in cases of senior or physically handicapped divisions..and Competitive Recurve?..anything goes long as it ain't got wheels and cables..but i have a real problem seeing a cutting edge oly bow getting labeled "Trad"..cause in reality?...it's anything but.



Tab Bender said:


> But don't we all have the right to be closed minded and unteachable? Who gets to say what's right or wrong in a harmless fun hobby like shooting arrows?


?1: Sure...anybody has "The Right" to go down the wrong path..this is america! :laugh:

?2. Nobody.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> No..it's not that i don't think ILF's arent trad..and i never said anything of the sort.....but i have a real problem seeing a cutting edge oly bow getting labeled "Trad"..cause in reality?...it's anything but.


This is where I think it can become confusing for the reader, Jinkster.

On one hand you say you don't think ILF's aren't trad...and than you say in another statement that a cutting edge Oly bow is anything...BUT trad.

You do know that an Olympic bow is ILF in almost all sitautions?

So what are the differences between an Olympic bow and an ILF bow that you're not really making clear that changes weither or not you see them as being trad?

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> This is where I think it can become confusing for the reader, Jinkster.
> 
> On one hand you say you don't think ILF's aren't trad...and than you say in another statement that a cutting edge Oly bow is anything...BUT trad.
> 
> ...


uhm...it ain't confusing to me Ray...unless the reader doesn't understand that...

NOT ALL ILF's ARE OLYMPIC BOWS.

There...does that clear things up a tad? :laugh:

and here we go...again...and all over a simple system that attaches the limbs to the riser..and now i do wish i never..EVER.. heard those three letters. :laugh:


----------



## arcobsessed (Jan 12, 2007)

I still own a compound but rarely shoot it. A while back, I realized that the business end of archery had turned many archers into self-proclaimed "superheroes" who couldn't wait to get next year's 1 fps increase in speed. These people are the industry's target. I cannot believe the cheating and outlandish behaviours I've seen at tournaments by otherwise reasonable people. 

Traditional for me has been a return to a stick and string. Yes, I tune the arrows to the bow as best I can. Yes, I strive to learn as much as I can in order to improve my shooting but otherwise, it's just me, the bow, the string and the arrow. I shoot off the shelf and am reasonably proficient. It's brought me back to why I got into archery in the first place. The simplicity is so gratifying. I can't blame a missed shot on the rest, release, bowsight... So now, the guns rest in the safe, the compounds are hanging up and the recurve is in my hands.

Today's world is enamoured with technology. Every facet of life is lived in the passing lane. The I Phone makes you smarter. Your car now talks to you. Your television occupies one entire wall of your living room. You can't feel good unless you're texting. People believe that technology can overcome their shortfalls. In some instances, it can yet in many other instances it detracts from the individual's true qualities. And, unfortunately, we lose some of ourself in this "techy" process.

In answer to the originator of this thread, I can only say I'm glad I was born in 1952.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> uhm...it ain't confusing to me Ray...unless the reader doesn't understand that...


Obviously :wink:



JINKSTER said:


> NOT ALL ILF's ARE OLYMPIC BOWS. There...does that clear things up a tad? :laugh:


Ummmm...nope. You still failed to answer the question. So what are the differences between an Olympic bow and an ILF bow that you're not really making clear that changes weither or not you see them as being trad?

Maybe it's the pretty colors they come in that don't make them trad to you :dontknow:

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Obviously :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Ray...it's not the pretty colors...and now we're not talking about confused readers here are we?..but to answer "your question" of what differentiates trad and oly bows?..i think i'll just let this websites primary sponsor answer that one for you..click on the lancasters banner...then?..click and look at the oly ILF risers..then?...click and look at the traditional ILF risers..see all the machined & tapped holes for plungers/stabs/sights/grips etc on the ILF oly risers that aren't on the usually shorter (for hunting) trad risers?....but you're playing games here aren't you Ray..actually?...i might think you're "target shopping"..since the last one you aimed at is banned.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Seriously let me guess it is Sharp. Is he in time out? I can't keep up with this sand box at all.:wink:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> No Ray...it's not the pretty colors...and now we're not talking about confused readers here are we?..but to answer "your question" of what differentiates trad and oly bows?..i think i'll just let this websites primary sponsor answer that one for you..click on the lancasters banner...then?..click and look at the oly ILF risers..then?...click and look at the traditional ILF risers..see all the machined & tapped holes for plungers/stabs/sights/grips etc on the ILF oly risers that aren't on the usually shorter (for hunting) trad risers?....but you're playing games here aren't you Ray..actually?...i might think you're "target shopping"..since the last one you aimed at is banned.


You need to calm down before you give yourself a heartattack.

These questions I'm asking you are ONLY for clarity. I haven't placed any target on you or anyone else to try and get them banned. If you get yourself banned that will be based on your actions...not mine.

If you have a problem with being asked legitimate questions...that's something you need to deal with.

So basically you're telling us you don't think a trad riser should be tapped for plungers/stabs/sights/grips etc and should be shorter in length? Correct?

If that's the case...most trad bows have been taped for those accessories so it's the length of the riser that seems to be the real issue.

If that's how you feel....I have no problem with it. I just don't agree with it.

Ray :shade:


----------



## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

ILF is not a four letter word. Trad is. IMO


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Tab Bender said:


> ILF is not a four letter word. Trad is. IMO


LOL...I hear ya! Trad is something personal....unless it has to do with following the rules in a competition.

Ray :shade:


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

When I started in archery our equipment wasn't very tunable friendly and there wasn't much information around to teach us how to shoot well so we were mostly self taught in the 50s to 70s. Even field archery shot bare bow wasn't too sophisticated and we were fairly naive on form, tuning and arrow flight.

I embrace modern technology and knowledge. I've learned so much from those who generously share their knowledge like RangerB and other shooters no matter what discipline they choose. I do have friends who still do not want to hear anything about form, tuning, bareshafting, or any new innovations in bows, arrows or equipment. Their shooting shows it however.

But archery is a big tent and plenty of room for all. I still love to watch the flight of a well tuned arrow.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> I voted yes...but only cause it seems to me that the lines have become blurred...cause I have a real problem identifying shooting twenty yard indoor with what for all the world looks like a girly weight Olympic bow sans sights and calling it "TRAD".


I shoot spots with the same weight bow I shoot 3d with and hunt with - 45 lbs and I dare you to stand on the far side of a broadside elk - there is nothing "girly" about hitting what you aim at. 

Funny thing is you look at the top indoor archers and they tend to be the same guys that are cleaning up on the 3d range AND killing a bunch of game - 'cause you know what they practice a ton, have good form and tune to perfection.



JINKSTER said:


> No Ray...it's not the pretty colors...and now we're not talking about confused readers here are we?..but to answer "your question" of what differentiates trad and oly bows?..i think i'll just let this websites primary sponsor answer that one for you..click on the lancasters banner...then?..click and look at the oly ILF risers..then?...click and look at the traditional ILF risers..see all the machined & tapped holes for plungers/stabs/sights/grips etc on the ILF oly risers that aren't on the usually shorter (for hunting) trad risers?....but you're playing games here aren't you Ray..actually?...i might think you're "target shopping"..since the last one you aimed at is banned.


So a 19 in Titan is trad but, a 21 inch excel isn't? This must be the case 'cause the titan has those cool TRAD cut outs? Same colors same holes different length and look - but, one is trad and one isn't - or do you draw the line at wood vs metal that being the case is the 25 inch Wood ILF riser from border Trad? it can't be it has all the holes as a full on oly rig and it is too long so it fails both the hole test and the length test - but, it is wood and golly gee I sure thought wood was trad.

I have wood risers - I have long metal risers - I have short metal riser - I got recurves and I got long bows - personally I love to shoot all of them - but, you know what I HATE the term "trad"

Matt


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

You put a nice evening smile on my face Jinkster. I mean this in a nice way so don't be offended. Your comments are so naive. I am on the IBO Board of Directors so I field all these rules questions. You sincerely believe that those rules are clear and to you they are but you can't imagine the onslaught of questions you'd have. That rule making business is about as nerve racking as anything I've done. Let me just give you some ideas.

- a guy shows up with a bow that is stamped 41# @ 28" but his arms are short and he only pulls the bow 25.5" His buddies complain. What do you do?
- a guy shows up with Easton A/C/E arrows shooting glue in points and off the shelf. Can he shoot the trad bowhunter class? YOu can't hunt with those.
- a guy builds his shelf up with leather but it forms a pyramid on the shelf and his arrow is sitting on top like a ball on a golf tee. It clearly affects the paradox of the arrow. Is he really shooting off the shelf?
- A guy puts foam against the strike plate to dampen the arrow pressure thus creating a homemade plunger. It clearly affects the paradox of the arrow and helps him tune.
- a guy shows up with a Howard Hill Longbow at 50# He is wearing buckskins and a coonskin cap. His arrows are wood and they are in a homemade backquiver but he is using a Bear weather rest on his bow. Do you make him shoot against the OLY Style bows?
- A guy shows up with a Bear recurve and he has drilled a hole in the shelf and has a little mascara brush stuck down into the shelf. His arrow sits on the hairs again like a tee. Can he play?

I could go on and on. Again, I'm not being mean here but never think anything with regard to running a tournament and setting rules is easy or simple. It's never simple.


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

I have trouble with jinksters 40lb rule ..sorry but in some states there is no minimum poundage.. I shoot 34-36 lbs because I`m old....very old... and with the right arrows get about 180-190 fps so there are alot of 50 lb bows not achieving this speed .. . I might just have to come out and play with my 32 limbs and open up a can of wup ass at one of the local shoots there jinkster to prove a point... lol lol


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Ranger those are some dang nice points. You know most of them would never never be an issue and go without notice to even have a complaint but there will always be someone to bring it up.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Ranger B said:


> That rule making business is about as nerve racking as anything I've done. Let me just give you some ideas.


I propose you hire me to be local dictator.... I'll give you an audition.



> - a guy shows up with a bow that is stamped 41# @ 28" but his arms are short and he only pulls the bow 25.5" His buddies complain. What do you do?


He has to pull the bow to 28", or he's disqualified. Form be damned. We're talking length here, and length matters when you've only got 41#.



> - a guy shows up with Easton A/C/E arrows shooting glue in points and off the shelf. Can he shoot the trad bowhunter class? YOu can't hunt with those.


Coat the arrows in poison. now he can hunt.



> - a guy builds his shelf up with leather but it forms a pyramid on the shelf and his arrow is sitting on top like a ball on a golf tee. It clearly affects the paradox of the arrow. Is he really shooting off the shelf?


he can shoot that if he stands on a pyramid when he shoots. Small one will do, but it must be made of leather.



> - A guy puts foam against the strike plate to dampen the arrow pressure thus creating a homemade plunger. It clearly affects the paradox of the arrow and helps him tune.


Guy gets 10 extra points for being inventive. Loses 50 points for getting caught.



> - a guy shows up with a Howard Hill Longbow at 50# He is wearing buckskins and a coonskin cap. His arrows are wood and they are in a homemade backquiver but he is using a Bear weather rest on his bow. Do you make him shoot against the OLY Style bows?


He just wins. Coonskin cap, can't beat it.



> - A guy shows up with a Bear recurve and he has drilled a hole in the shelf and has a little mascara brush stuck down into the shelf. His arrow sits on the hairs again like a tee. Can he play?


If he's wearing mascara applied from that brush before he's asked about it, he can play, but it has to be THAT brush, not the one in his makeup bag.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

WA (Fita) 3D made rule amendments this year, Barebow div, any ILF bow metal/wood you can stringwalk/facewalk etc, and Instinctive div, a non ILF wood riser, split or 3 under fixed anchor, I think I heard some talks about people wanting the similar thing in IFAA but not enough people want it for a change at this point.

Not that I feel one is MORE trad than the other as I've seen a metal riser bows from India in the Royal Armories dated 13-14th century, just think it helps make it a little fairer for tourney.


One of the rules these guys tried to amend in trying to stop me shooting was a 60# min Longbow weight, at that time in my younger days 60-65# was no problem for me so I wasn't bothered but I could see it was a very unfair rule as obviously some people would be restricted by this rule, maybe even injure themselves if they tried.

I was doing Bow inspection at an IFAA European tourney two weeks ago, I passed a metal handle Longbow, some protested and told them to read the rules "Bow of any material" just people have gotten so used to seeing wood Longbows they had a knee jerk reaction when they saw something different.


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I don't know... I've always looked at as recurves and longbows to be traditional style archery and compounds to be modern archery, though either could be "modern"... ala aluminum, composites, and such. Don't know... just me... :grin:


----------



## grichards (Dec 7, 2008)

I would like to say thanks to Viper for his book and online information. Ranger your videos are great,please keep it up. This information is invaluable.


----------



## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Curve1 said:


> I believe if you keep a steady bow hand and your form is solid, you will do good. Your style may not be like someone else thinks it should be but if you're hitting your mark...you're good.
> Being successful at shooting both targets and live game [if you're a hunter] has to be a good thing. I do think we tend to over analyze things sometimes. If your goal is to be accurate out to 25 yards that's ok. If your goal is to be accurate out to 50 yards that's even better. Like someone said in the above post...different strokes. I also believe if you're a hunter you need to be prepared for a lot of different shot angles, cants, ect. You dont always have the opportunity to shoot the stance or position you do in your back yard.



Boy oh Boy...is this a accurate statement..that said....I'll add most 3d shoots you won't ever see various angles or shots or obstructions...because it is too difficult..and many places would rather have people happy..than those who complain..for what ever reason..even to going against the very premise of what the IBO was started for..

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................

I voted yes..for a number of reasons...I am a hunter 98% of the time..and practice as I hunt..and I can see why the OP posted this..but yet..with the current trend can also see how & why the majority disagree...It is because of the ideals what was once considered traditional..that it is now being replaced with..and where the emphasis is being placed..and that is target accuracy..and target archery..not hunting..Hunting is not a full time necessity any more..and is becoming more difficult to do..and afford..and how it is looked at by those who don't hunt..

Where the notion has become the norm that to be a successful hunter you need to have or strive for Olympic accuracy..has always been promoted as the "best way" by those who don't hunt..and now by those who choose to do both..and what is best for them..not those who don't shoot to compete..and only hunt...

While being able to do both isn't bad by any means..it does not mean not shooting for perfect accuracy is always a hindrance in the field..Consistancy in putting 1 arrow where you want it to go is the main thing..not shooting bulls eyes.....no matter how this may sound to those who believe otherwise.

The OP's post reflects this I believe..but..what I have seen on this thread so-far..is those who do compete taking a opposite stand to support their beliefs..and discounting all others..and this has always been the core differences between those who are more of target shooters than those who are more of hunters..All one has to do to see this very plainly..is to look what is considered as the benchmark to gauge ones performance...and that is a 300 round..Others here have even gone as far as to discount what any ones says unless they can prove they have competed and won..more needless divison..

Our equipment is a personal choice..and to many..a ILF rig is not traditional..To those who like them..and shoot them..and promote them..they are..and take umbrage against those who choose to believe otherwise..but these same folks refuse to believe those who don't think as they do..are wrong...more divison...

People forget..way to easily IMHO..that the meaning of being traditional to many here..is a spiritual path..and trying to stay as close as possible these days to what they hold as such..Others look at it differently or look down on those that feel like this...or.....as just a sport..or a pass time..or as a means to just add an additional season of hunting..that don't and refuse to understand how others can consider a equipment choice as part of this...but..to many it is..more division..

Division will always be a part of traditional archery..because it is such a personal sport..with many different paths..Which one any one of us take..is only right to each individual...Remember this old saying...To thine own selves be true..If we each can remember to do this..and allow others to do the same..there really won't be any division..

Mac


----------



## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

I didn't know what to vote. I can't generalize on what traditional bows as a whole are doing or not doing. I think that the essence of any sport is to get what you want out of it. If individuals aren't having fun and getting whatever pleasure they seek out of the way they're pursuing the archery game, then they're doing it wrong. If they're preventing others from having a nice time, they're doing it wrong in a big way. If, on the other hand, they're doing what they want, even if it seems Quixotic to us, I wish them well. 

I don't compete, nor do I care to, so I can't speak to the state of the rules. That said, someone in the racing game once said, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." Whatever ruleset there might be, people will look for loop holes. They'll bend every rule until it squeals. That's just the nature of competition. The spirit of the rule will often bow to what the letter allows. If it creates some kind of dissonance that ruins your day, maybe the shooting line at a competition isn't where you need to be right then. Seems to me that getting twisted around about the rules is probably counterproductive. If you want to compete, the energy it takes to agonize over the rules, which are probably outside your ability to control, would probably be better spent on trying to shoot as many good shots as you can. 

I just love to shoot arrows and see them fly to the target. Today, I was out, shooting at a tennis ball with my PVC bow that cost me about $3 to make. I had a great time, just standing there chatting with a friend, knocking a yellow ball around and sometimes skewering it with an arrow. For me, that was enough. It was what I wanted, and so my day in the industry, such as it is, went in the right direction.

Cheers,

Patrick


----------



## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Wow no matter what conversation you have here it always comes back to what is trad and what isn't....Get Over It and Freak*Ng shoot what you have and be graciously happy that you can. In another year or two when this glorious country finally sits down and decides to deal with the gross deficit we are in, you'll be thinking twice on whether or not it will be wise to spend a buck on archery crap or food. Please guys it's all for pleasure right. Is there anyone out there that really needs to live or die because of this SPORT. If you do buy a gun, you'll bring home more meat.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Some great comments here and none of the usual fighting going on? I'm happy about that. :wink:

Anyway, I push Olympic setups on archers pretty hard some times and I think that might not be the right thing to do. I agree with JINKSTER that Olympic style risers aren't very traditional but there are others like DAS & TT and even the Excels that seem to be closer for some reason. Not a huge difference but the shorter style risers seem more trad for some reason.

I started this topic after shooting my Sage for a while, it 'felt' more like I was shooting a traditional bow. I didn't shoot it very well (lol) but it got me thinking about what I wanted from my archery hence the question. When I picked up my 68" Olympic I shot it so much better but I felt like I was cheating for some reason? I guess this could be more about sorting out my own issues, what I want to achieve. From the look at the votes there is little doubt about what the majority think and there is nothing wrong with that. I appreciate everybody's comments and I think I understand some of you guy's a little better now. 

I have to say that even though I like the high tech gear, I hope there will always be wood longbows/recurves and self bows and they have there own separate class to shoot in. To me they will always be the most 'traditional' of the lot.

Cheers!


----------



## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

> a guy shows up with a Howard Hill Longbow at 50# He is wearing buckskins and a coonskin cap. His arrows are wood and they are in a homemade backquiver but he is using a Bear weather rest on his bow. Do you make him shoot against the OLY Style bows?


Under the current IBO rules, Indeed he would be. Right?


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I totally agree with the goals statements. I think that if a guy wants to be a good hunter with his bow his expectation should be to keep it in the 8 ring at most all local 3D shoots. At most places these days the TRAD stakes are 15 yards on avg. with a couple at 20 - 25 and a few under 15. At those distances with an open shot you should keep expect to keep the arrow in the 8 ring. 

If you want to compete and keeping score is your forte then you want to work to shoot 10s and that will require other practice sessions and higher expectations. My goal is to help others meet their own personal expectations.


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

So... the bottom line is, what's "traditional"? I don't care, don't know, and don't care to know. I prefer to recurves. :^)


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Ranger B said:


> I totally agree with the goals statements. I think that if a guy wants to be a good hunter with his bow his expectation should be to keep it in the 8 ring at most all local 3D shoots. At most places these days the TRAD stakes are 15 yards on avg. with a couple at 20 - 25 and a few under 15. At those distances with an open shot you should keep expect to keep the arrow in the 8 ring.
> 
> If you want to compete and keeping score is your forte then you want to work to shoot 10s and that will require other practice sessions and higher expectations. My goal is to help others meet their own personal expectations.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

This...











is to this.











As this...










is to this.











As this...










is to this.











As this...










is to this.











The rest is personal preference.

KPC


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Okay Gents...now that i've had a couple friendly pm's, a friend request, a nights sleep and as one poster put it?.. 

"have calmed down so i don't have a heart attack"?...here's how i really feel. :laugh:

The question posed in this thread was/is...

*"Is traditional archery going down the wrong path?"*

The thread asked me to cast a vote...i did..and the forum is a place to express personal opinion..and i did that too..mine..and while it may not appeal to the masses?..then that is a great indicator of just how far down the wrong path "Traditional Archery" has gone as follows..

Yep..to me?..Trad Archery is Wooden Bows..i find they are like the people who own them...warm, friendly, hand sanded and finished they also require diligent care or can easily scratch and ding..warm in my hand in the cold and don't ching, chang or clang against other metal objects that seem hard, cold and machined.

I also like the personality of those wooden bow owners..as with a twinkle in their eye and warmth in their heart it's always a "Glad To Meet You" instead of an egomaniacal glare behind a "Can't Wait To Beat You" attitude..way more heart...way less ego..they cheer my hits and console my misses..as i do them.

A place where having a blast with a lot of laughs..good times with great friends far out-weighs and trumps high score of the day.

I'll always choose a 3D far before any 2D paper rounds and cringe at the thought of stepping to the 20yd line in vegas..just aint me anymore. 

I like what "arcobsessed" posted and put it best as i can so relate...

_"I still own a compound but rarely shoot it. A while back, I realized that the business end of archery had turned many archers into self-proclaimed "superheroes" who couldn't wait to get next year's 1 fps increase in speed. These people are the industry's target. I cannot believe the cheating and outlandish behaviours I've seen at tournaments by otherwise reasonable people. 

Traditional for me has been a return to a stick and string. Yes, I tune the arrows to the bow as best I can. Yes, I strive to learn as much as I can in order to improve my shooting but otherwise, it's just me, the bow, the string and the arrow. I shoot off the shelf and am reasonably proficient. It's brought me back to why I got into archery in the first place. The simplicity is so gratifying. I can't blame a missed shot on the rest, release, bowsight... So now, the guns rest in the safe, the compounds are hanging up and the recurve is in my hands.

Today's world is enamoured with technology. Every facet of life is lived in the passing lane. The I Phone makes you smarter. Your car now talks to you. Your television occupies one entire wall of your living room. You can't feel good unless you're texting. People believe that technology can overcome their shortfalls. In some instances, it can yet in many other instances it detracts from the individual's true qualities. And, unfortunately, we lose some of ourself in this "techy" process.

In answer to the originator of this thread, I can only say I'm glad I was born in 1952."_

L8R, Bill.


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

barebow52 that is correct. My point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere to please the most folks but it's never ever simple. Never. Sounds simple until it's your job to do it, enforce it and field the community feedback comments.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Ranger B said:


> You put a nice evening smile on my face Jinkster. I mean this in a nice way so don't be offended. Your comments are so naive. I am on the IBO Board of Directors so I field all these rules questions. You sincerely believe that those rules are clear and to you they are but you can't imagine the onslaught of questions you'd have. That rule making business is about as nerve racking as anything I've done. Let me just give you some ideas.
> 
> - a guy shows up with a bow that is stamped 41# @ 28" but his arms are short and he only pulls the bow 25.5" His buddies complain. What do you do?
> - a guy shows up with Easton A/C/E arrows shooting glue in points and off the shelf. Can he shoot the trad bowhunter class? YOu can't hunt with those.
> ...


Jimmy...to me?...your response gives several prime examples of just how far "Down The Wrong Path" trad has gone...to me..as at one time a couple decades ago i held several club officer positions including VP (was nom'ed pres a few times but always turned it down..along with sec./treasurer lol) of a now defunct club that was known as "Treasure Coast Archers"..we were one of the largest (and i dare say well known) NFAA/FAA sanctioned clubs in the state of florida..and while i wouldn't claim we were the inventors of 3D?..we were holding 3D tourneys long before the average joe ever heard the word Mckenzie or the letters IBO used in succesion..our "Invitational Shoots" were the largest draw in the state as our club was famed for being the first and only club to incorporate a "Running Deer Target" into our course..it was sculpted from several layers of ethafoam contact cemented together and ran on clothesline pulleys and a 1/4" coated steel cable strung between two trees..again...before anyone ever heard the terms "Mckenzie" or "IBO"...and while the mascara brush deal is a new one on me?..i'd venture to say i've heard most of the other complaints in one form or another...and from 1987-1992 my response was always the same to the complaintents..

"Would you like to file a Challenge?..cause if you do?..it costs $25 and we'll be happy to investigate your complaint."

and if i recall properly?..in the 5 years i held various club officer positions?....we only ever took $25 from one challenger to weigh and chrono a competitors bow...he lost his challenge...and his $25. LOL!

So i guess i would hafta say that overall?..especially by todays apparent standards?..we were a pretty laid-back club full of mostly friendly faces...and i loved that.  

So...while i fully understand all the hinky (if not petty) complaints you are often times faced with as an IBO official?...while i may be old, set-in-my-ways, thoughts and beliefs?..i don't believe i'm quite as naive as you might think. 

My prayer for you Jimmy?..is that you always have the Lord in your heart in all your words and decisions..you're a great guy with a burning passion with A LOT TO OFFER for the sport we all love so much..as to me?..it's not just a sport..it's "A Fellowship"..and for me?...when it comes to "Trad"?..it's more like "A Brotherhood"..at least that's the way my old memories like to veiw it. 

L8R, Bill.


----------



## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

> barebow52 that is correct. My point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere to please the most folks but it's never ever simple. Never. Sounds simple until it's your job to do it, enforce it and field the community feedback comments.


I thought that would be the case. I'm new to recurves ,but shot barebow compound for over 20yrs. Bottomline for me is "I just love to shoot" (especially in competition.) I'm always striving to better myself and beat my averages. I know that if I can go to a big shoot and shoot close to my average then i have done extremely well

I shoot a setup that works for me and I enjoy shooting it. I just shoot in whatever class the hosting organization's rules put me in. I dont really like to change my setup just to be in a specific class

I have met many good friends over the past few years. Alot of my old barebow buddies now shoot recurves and there's no better people than what you meet in the traditional class

I dont know where traditional archery is heading , but I like where it has taken me

Also, Love the videos jimmy, I think I have pestered you before about releasing a DVD


----------



## parkerd (Sep 30, 2010)

Trad might be going the wrong way just from all of these arguments on here.... Hahaha!


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

barebow52 said:


> *"I dont know where traditional archery is heading , but I like where it has taken me"*


I nominate this as the best sentence ever posted to this entire forum!


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

In the spirit of this thread I did not vote on anything. I will not use the “traditional” term to describe how I like archery. That term is an emotionally charged topic that gets endlessly debated on “what is” or “is not” included. It took me about 3 months of being involved in this aspect of archery to realize it was a dead horse that would be eternally beaten. Base on my attitude I am just a modern target and bowhunter who happens to use a sightless recurve.

Since I compete in 3D tournaments and hunt with a recurve that does not have a sight. That puts me into the ASA (Traditional) & IBO (Recurve Unlimited) classes based on how I have the equipment configured for my personal taste (or lack of taste depending who you talk to). Being very serious about both hunting and target archery I work hard on my form and have had a limited amount of formal coaching to guide me through the process. I applaud those who take the time to prepare and post form videos and answer questions fully knowing they will get instantly “flamed” by those with opposing view points.

As far as cost topic is concerned, I’m a self professed cheap skate. I enjoy gathering information and opinions on what tackle I am interested in and trying to score it used in either classifieds or Ebay. 80% of the hunting stuff I buy is used at a discounted price. Therefore I have a decent setup that I put together at low cost. Whether you like a simple wood bow or a highly engineered ILF setup they all can be found at a very reasonable price.

It’s all archery and it’s all fun!


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

As I said before, it's just going back to where it once was. 

From what I am hearing in this thread the bow on the right isn't trad but the bow on the left is.

Yeah, right......... 










The "definition" I saw earlier of how archery is "who you are" vs "what you do" seems to fit best in this discussion. IMO


----------



## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Jinkster - you are right with the protest. We charge for it too and rarely have an official one. You just get cornered and chewed on ;-) But I can take it.

We have somewhat of a running joke at Twin Oaks. Anytime anyone complains now one of the guys will, in a very whiny voice, say, "It's isn't fair. It just isn't fair!" This came about because guys were always saying that the elevated rest was the reason someone beat them. That darned elevated rest put 50 points between them on 40 3d targets. "It's just not fair." We all laugh and have a good time. Some folks wish we were all in the same class so they can know that they shot against the best with all bows and others want a class with only them in the class so they can get a trinket. We're all wired different.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

dan in mi said:


> As I said before, it's just going back to where it once was.
> 
> From what I am hearing in this thread the bow on the right isn't trad but the bow on the left is.
> 
> ...


To my hearts eye?..neither of them are..the one on the left looks like an ancient pawn shop oly bow and the one on the right looks like a part to the space shuttle launch pad..."TO ME"..to you?...they may be the loves of your life...and that's just fine and dandy..whatever floats your boat..and there'll always be differences of opinion..and we're always welcome to express them..as what i love in a trad bow?..might make good firewood to you! :laugh:

To me?..if it's cutting edge technology cnc machined out of aerospace grade alloys to excruciating tolerances?..my heart of hearts has difficulty viewing it as "Traditional Archery Equipment"..i at times think that if an archer is that emphatic and focused on high performance recurves and spot-on accuracy?..they might be better suited going compound...as to me?..these are examples of inbetween bows..they want the performance and accuracy of a compound yet still wanna term it "Traditional".

But again?..that's just me...entitled to airing out my veiws and opines as well as anyone else here is.


----------



## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Could be worse off guys. At the shoot I go to there is no trinket as there isn't enough shooting at it to afford to purchase them any more recurve or compound. What is trad at that shoot well what ever I decide to shoot that week as I am the only one even shooting that class. That is the direction of Archery where I am at. Hope it is better in your parts.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Ranger B said:


> Jinkster - you are right with the protest. We charge for it too and rarely have an official one. You just get cornered and chewed on ;-) But I can take it.
> 
> We have somewhat of a running joke at Twin Oaks. Anytime anyone complains now one of the guys will, in a very whiny voice, say, "It's isn't fair. It just isn't fair!" This came about because guys were always saying that the elevated rest was the reason someone beat them. That darned elevated rest put 50 points between them on 40 3d targets. "It's just not fair." We all laugh and have a good time. Some folks wish we were all in the same class so they can know that they shot against the best with all bows and others want a class with only them in the class so they can get a trinket. We're all wired different.


:laugh: Well remember that line i quoted above Jimmy..cause i found that once i hit'em with it?..the "Getting cornered and chewed on part"?...STOPPED! :laugh: Abruptly. :laugh:

I've learned that my goals and taste/preference in bows is a personal thing..and many times we all want something different..and to me the measure of a man is being able to discuss those differences in a civilized mannor..this way?...we learn more about each other..and as a result?..more about trad archery.


----------



## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I have come full circle several times, longbow (selfbow) to unlimited compound and back, I hope I can make that journey again several more times. Its a great adventure in all the forms.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> ...these are examples of inbetween bows..they want the performance and accuracy of a compound yet still wanna term it "Traditional".



This reminds me of that old saying:

*"When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging..."*

:wink:

You do realize that the *"performance and accuracy"* of these...










is probably about the same, maybe even LESS than this...










KPC


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> To me?..if it's cutting edge technology cnc machined out of aerospace grade alloys to excruciating tolerances?..my heart of hearts has difficulty viewing it as "Traditional Archery Equipment"..i at times think that if an archer is that emphatic and focused on high performance recurves and spot-on accuracy?..they might be better suited going compound...as to me?..these are examples of inbetween bows..they want the performance and accuracy of a compound yet still wanna term it "Traditional".


I thought like that until last April and I bought a bow with a metal riser that shot better than any bow I've shot in 56 years. So I held my nose and shot it for a year. It grew on me and now I don't want to shoot anything else. I'm not a competitor either, just like a good shooting bow.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

pilotmill said:


> I have come full circle several times, longbow (selfbow) to unlimited compound and back, I hope I can make that journey again several more times. Its a great adventure in all the forms.


:darkbeer: :thumbs_up


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> This reminds me of that old saying:
> 
> *"When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging..."*
> 
> ...


and the above reminds me of the old saying..

*"A poor archer always blames his bow."*

and to answer your question?..no...i have no clue which would shoot better..but i would guess it would by and in large depend on how well it was tuned and mostly on the archer who's shooting it at the moment..but i would give the edge to the machined riser recurves vs the longbow as i would assume they are cut too or even past center..making them more forgiving to shoot vs the longbow most of which are not cut-too-center..making them not quite as forgiving to shoot..but...what's yer point?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Ranger B said:


> This came about because guys were always saying that the elevated rest was the reason someone beat them. That darned elevated rest put 50 points between them on 40 3d targets. "It's just not fair." We all laugh and have a good time.


This is part of the reason why some people just annoy the crap out of me at times :wink: All the whining...as if the difference in some of these equipment complaints costed them a win.

It's really ridiculous to think an elevated rest could possibly cost someone 50 points. If anything...an elevated rest with a cushion plunger may increase an archer's score by 2% at most if the archer tuned each set up equally.

Now if we were to compare selfbows and self arrows to a DAS recurve and carbon arrows...than there's going to be a much more noticable difference.

Sometimes people want to win so bad at something they want everyone to shoot the exact equipment they have chosen and than there are those that will complain about anything and everything to make an excuse why they didn't win. Some are legit...while others are just nit picking.

Glad to see no one has had a heart attack over any of this....yet. :wink:

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Glad to see no one has had a heart attack over any of this....yet. :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Don't give up hope..i'm working on it..just ate my other 1/2 of an italian sub i bought for lunch yesterday..for breakfast today. :laugh:

gotta cut corners somewhere's...saving for my first ILF! :laugh:


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> To me?..if it's cutting edge technology cnc machined out of aerospace grade alloys to excruciating tolerances?..my heart of hearts has difficulty viewing it as "Traditional Archery Equipment".


You better throw away those cutting edge carbon arrows and get some wood arrows for your Longbow. :wink:

Just where does one draw the line, eveybody will have different views on this subject and will never get everybody to agree, just were do we cross the line between high tech and trad , personally it's more about how we shoot than equipment used so if it's not got sights and a no wheels to me it's pretty much trad.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> and the above reminds me of the old saying..
> 
> *"A poor archer always blames his bow."*


Ummm...I think it was YOU that implied that one bow was more "accurate" and "performed" better than another. I suggested the exact opposite.

Nice try though...now give me that shovel before you really hurt yourself.

:wink:

KPC


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Don't give up hope..i'm working on it.


I think you got me wrong. I'd NEVER want someone to suffer from a heartache over such trivial stuff.



JINKSTER said:


> just ate my other 1/2 of an italian sub i bought for lunch yesterday..for breakfast today. :laugh:


You're in good company if you bought your sub where Jared buys his :wink:



JINKSTER said:


> gotta cut corners somewhere's...saving for my first ILF! :laugh:


Which one are you saving up for?

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> You better throw away those cutting edge carbon arrows and get some wood arrows for your Longbow. :wink:
> 
> Just where does one draw the line, eveybody will have different views on this subject and will never get everybody to agree, just were do we cross the line between high tech and trad , personally it's more about how we shoot than equipment used so if it's not got sights and a no wheels to me it's pretty much trad.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _To my hearts eye?..neither of them are..the one on the left looks like an ancient pawn shop oly bow
> _


Actually, the bow on the left is a Bear magnesium riser takedown (Maggie), circa 1971-1973, one line of his bows that Fred liked. Mine is a '71 and is a sweet shooting (trad) bow. Mounted with original trad sights and an original trad Bear steel stab.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Jink: weren't you just complaining a little while back about not being able to shoot your longbow with carbon arrows for 3D?
It seems you've got a lot of judgement built up for others considering how little time you've got in the Trad game.

You see to my mind, almost NONE of these bows are actually traditional since the golden age of trad archery was before there was fiberglass. So if it isn't a selfbow then its just a modern recurve or longbow.

Don't like the rules? Get 'em changed or beat everyone with YOUR equipment and quit looking down on theirs.

-Grant


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

JINKSTER said:


> Don't give up hope..i'm working on it..just ate my other 1/2 of an italian sub i bought for lunch yesterday..for breakfast today. :laugh:
> 
> gotta cut corners somewhere's...saving for my first ILF! :laugh:


Finding a like new ILF riser is not all that expensive. all you have to do is let folks know in the ad sections and I guarantee ya they will come calling with risers that are a steal.....I've bought two ILFs, one on Trad Tech and one here in the FITA ads for about half what it would cost at LAS......this last one is a month old and never shot.


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Jink, its my humble opinion that when you get an ILF riser in metal, you won't shoot anything else.......


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I think you got me wrong. I'd NEVER want someone to suffer from a heartache over such trivial stuff.


I don't have ya wrong Ray..i'm just break'in yer chops..turnabouts fair play. :laugh:



BLACK WOLF said:


> You're in good company if you bought your sub where Jared buys his :wink:


I have no idea where Jared shops subs but mines a one-off, hand made, custom built boars head! :laugh:





BLACK WOLF said:


> Which one are you saving up for?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Got 3 in mind..Morrison Phenolic, Looking at the Dryads but leaning heavily towards a Border Black Douglas Super Swift..but gagging on the cost. :laugh:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> I don't have ya wrong Ray..i'm just break'in yer chops..turnabouts fair play. :laugh:


I'm pretty sure you started with the scarcasm. I just thought you might like someone to play along with ya. :laugh:



JINKSTER said:


> I have no idea where Jared shops subs but mines a one-off, hand made, custom built boars head! :laugh:


I thought everyone knew who Jared was :wink: Jared's the spokesperson for Subway. Ya know....the guy who use to be really fat who started eating at Subway and lost all that weight?



JINKSTER said:


> Got 3 in mind..Morrison Phenolic, Looking at the Dryads but leaning heavily towards a Border Black Douglas Super Swift..but gagging on the cost. :laugh:


Oooooo...you've got some mighty fine bows picked out. Border is who I would go with...but I think anyone would be happy with any one of those.

Ray :shade:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Jink: weren't you just complaining a little while back about not being able to shoot your longbow with carbon arrows for 3D?
> It seems you've got a lot of judgement built up for others considering how little time you've got in the Trad game.
> 
> You see to my mind, almost NONE of these bows are actually traditional since the golden age of trad archery was before there was fiberglass. So if it isn't a selfbow then its just a modern recurve or longbow.
> ...


You got me all wrong Grant..not looking down on anything..or anyone..do i have a lot of opinions swimming around in my head?..yep..guess it happens when ya get old...hard-drives full of'em! :laugh:

But i'm a tad disappointed in ya..cause if ya really wanted to jab me hard?..you'd of brought up the fact that just a few weeks ago i was contemplating, discussing and asking about a bernardini luxor...remember that?..well just like they say in the 12 step rooms?.."This Too Shall Pass"?...it did. :laugh:

Look...i know these cnc machined wonder bows are lights out state-of-the-art shooting phenoms of our time..but they just don't speak to my soul..i even know i would probably love shooting one and giggle like a school girl but...after much thought and deliberation?..maybe it's because i've been an aerospace cnc programmer/machinist most of my adult life machining and 3D milling some of those very alloys and the appearance reminds me of work instead of play..or maybe it's the skills i don't have that go into designing, laminating and hand finishing a top shelf wooden bow..or maybe it's that my first memory of a bow was oggling over the absolute stunning beauty of my fathers new Bear Recurve when i was about 6 years old..but whatever it is?..the machined metal riser gig just ain't me..not in keeping with my personal goals or what it is i seek out of archery..i don't hafta be the best anymore..i'm past that..heck..i'm happy to report even my mid-life crisis is over..and i'm even happier to leave the alpha-wolf syndrome to the younger guys and God Bless'em..i'm certain they'll carry the torch just fine..much like you have done. 

L8R, Bill.


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I prefer the Firehouse Subs to Subway....Man, those subs at Firehouse are larapin! Now, don't tell me you don't know what LARAPIN means!


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm pretty sure you started with the scarcasm. I just thought you might like someone to play along with ya. :laugh:


Did i?...well if i did or you took it that way..i apologize cause you play waaaaayyy too hard! :laugh:



BLACK WOLF said:


> I thought everyone knew who Jared was :wink: Jared's the spokesperson for Subway. Ya know....the guy who use to be really fat who started eating at Subway and lost all that weight?


heh..for a second i thought you were talking "He Went Too Jareds" :laugh:



BLACK WOLF said:


> Oooooo...you've got some mighty fine bows picked out. Border is who I would go with...but I think anyone would be happy with any one of those.
> 
> Ray :shade:


yep..i'd be happy with any of'em alright..but while i see a few morrisons and dryads here and there?..i've yet to see anyone weilding a Border Black Douglas...and i guess i'm willing to save and pay for "Unique"..besides...that super swift model looks like a killer design and the sculpted finger grooves will be a "Must Have" feature for me..so..looks like it'll be quite awhile before my next bow gets ordered. :laugh:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> I prefer the Firehouse Subs to Subway....Man, those subs at Firehouse are larapin! Now, don't tell me you don't know what LARAPIN means!


LOL...I seriously don't know. I know what LARPing is but I don't know what larapin is. 

I also haven't heard of Firehouse subs. I live in a small town in the mountains and really don't have to many chain resteraunts here. Are Firehouse subs that much better?

Ray :shade:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Did i?...well if i did or you took it that way..i apologize cause you play waaaaayyy too hard! :laugh:


Sorry about that. I've defintiely been told I play rough at times.



JINKSTER said:


> heh..for a second i thought you were talking "He Went Too Jareds" :laugh:


LOL...naw...not that Jared :wink:



JINKSTER said:


> yep..i'd be happy with any of'em alright..but while i see a few morrisons and dryads here and there?..i've yet to see anyone weilding a Border Black Douglas...and i guess i'm willing to save and pay for "Unique"..besides...that super swift model looks like a killer design and the sculpted finger grooves will be a "Must Have" feature for me..so..looks like it'll be quite awhile before my next bow gets ordered. :laugh:


I hear ya!

Ray :shade:


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

GEREP said:


> I think the beauty of any recreational endeavor is that you can take it in any direction (or level) you choose. After all, it's your activity, it belongs to you.
> 
> After visiting the traditional archery/bowhunting forums for well over a decade, I've come to the conclusion that there are basically two types of people that visit them.
> 
> ...


Outstanding post!!.............Harperman


----------



## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I went back and re-read my post and realized I'd missed the mark. So I thought I'd answer Destroyer's questions separately.

"Is there too much focus on competition."

I'm not sure how anyone can answer yes to this. I don't see this where I live. We're lucky to get ten or twelve show up for a shoot, and that includes all types of equipment. There are six 3D courses within 50 miles of me and one or more has a shoot every weekend. They post the results every Monday on a computer website. None has more than one or two shooting in the traditional class, and they are the same two guys. I've learned to recognize their names. Many weekends there are none. So from my perspective, the answer is no.

"Is there too much focus on form and tuning?" In this little forum? maybe. Out in the real world? I doubt it. Most members at my club set up there bows when they purchase them, after that they just shoot them, and adjust as needed. I would think this is typical everywhere. Again, I would have to answer no.

"Is traditional archery going down the wrong path?" Like I said before, I'm just encouraged it's going down any path at all.

Finally, to those bowhunters that some how feel in the minority or slighted, well, bowhunting is the engine that drives archery in this country. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's the primary archery activity where I live. Most of the archers I know, and I dare say even those who post in this forum, got involved in competitive games of archery in order to help them become better shots at game. If bowhunting declines, it will be from the changing demographic, and economics, and not because of too much focus on competition.

The only individual that I'm aware of that posts in this forum with a different perspective is Mr. Morley. Bowhunting is not allowed where he lives. I really enjoy reading his posts and his unique perspective. Which begs the question: I wonder what this forum would be like if we assumed, for the sake of argument, that bowhunting was not allowed anywhere? Please don't answer that, I don't think any of us wants to go there. It's just food for thought.


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> To my hearts eye?..neither of them are..the one on the left looks like an ancient pawn shop oly bow.....


Dang, I thought the "C" riser was the target version..... :shocked:



WindWalker said:


> Actually, the bow on the left is a Bear magnesium riser takedown (Maggie), circa 1971-1973, one line of his bows that Fred liked. Mine is a '71 and is a sweet shooting (trad) bow. Mounted with original trad sights and an original trad Bear steel stab.


Good catch, although I honestly believed a Fred Bear Take Down didn't need to be pointed out to a "traditional" archer. :mg: 

I guess it's time for this :darkbeer: instead of this :BangHead: because I have seen where this discussion goes for years now.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

pokynojoe said:


> I went back and re-read my post and realized I'd missed the mark. So I thought I'd answer Destroyer's questions separately.
> 
> "Is there too much focus on competition."
> 
> ...


Good post Joe..and thanks for pointing out to the masses that the OP asked..

*"Is there too much focus on competition."*

and that was really the foundation of my vote of "yes" which nows appears i'm in a serious minority of 22% :laugh:

but "that" was the question and line of what my "YES" vote was based on....mainly cause...

I love fun but loath egofests.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

dan in mi said:


> Dang, I thought the "C" riser was the target version..... :shocked:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not shocked..i'm ignorant..mainly cause if i ain't attracted to it?..i usually know very little about it...then again?..the longer i live?... the more i realize how little i do know..which NEVER works out real well for me in debates..but doesn't mean i hafta forfiet expressing my personal opinion..and we all have differing attractions. 

Like Burt said too Sally in the original Smokey & The Bandit..

"How smart a man is often depends on what part of the country he's standing in at the moment"


----------



## Learn2turn (May 16, 2011)

I said yes because a beginner in archery no longer has a "simple" place to start. Shooting trad has become as complicated as shooting compounds.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Learn2turn said:


> I said yes because a beginner in archery no longer has a "simple" place to start. Shooting trad has become as complicated as shooting compounds.


Only if you allow it, when I started I got everything Bow, arrows, quiver for about $130, it was a simple takedown starter bow, over the last 26 years I've shot Wood bows and wood arrows, it's only the last 12-18 months did I start using Metal risers and carbon arrows, do I feel any less trad......not at all.

Where I live 98% shoot trad bows and Euro tourneys it must be around 80% of entry shooting trad bows. Went into an archery shop in Italy a few years ago, not one compound or metal riser recurve, all wood bows, because most Italians love wood bows.

If you like wood risers nobody is pressuring you to shoot anything else, if you starting out shooting I will always advise getting the cheapest most basic bow available, because in 4-6 months you will outgrow that bow and very likely change your goals with the experience you've gained over those 4-6 months.

My personal collection of Bows include 1 English Longbow, 2 Saluki Horsebows, 5 Longbows and Recurves 2 wood, 1 Oly carbon and one cnc barebow riser.


----------



## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

Learn2turn said:


> I said yes because a beginner in archery no longer has a "simple" place to start. Shooting trad has become as complicated as shooting compounds.


I guess that would depend on your particular circumstances. Here where I live, this is not the case. A person can come out to our club, and for five dollars can shoot and try out our club equipment, both recurves and compounds all day if they wish. Plus almost all members will let you shoot and try out their bows. I bet this is the same where ever like minded archers congregate. We have a number of members that are very adept at setting up and tuning bows, and offer their service for free. Not only that, for $105.00 per year, that gets you unlimited access to the indoor, 14 stand field and 3D course. Also, we have all the tuning devices, chronographs, bow presses string jigs( both for recurve and one we made ourselves that can apply up to 300lbs. per sq. in" tension for the compounders), someone will fletch your arrows for you or you can do it yourself, we have all kinds of jigs. The only additional charge is two dollars everytime you shoot a 3D round, in order to help cover the cost of replacement. We also have level 1 and level II instructors that will help you for free, if you so desire instruction. If you don't, no one will bother you, and you can shoot how you want, as long as it's safely. You have to ask for instruction at our club. When the time comes that you might wish to purchase your own equipment, we can also help with too, through a discount program with have with wholesalers(some of our members have been in this game for over 50 years and are very well connected throughout the archery world!) 
I guess I'm just lucky. I know it's not like this everywhere, and if you live in remote locations, I guess you're on your own. However, I've lived in a lot of places in this country throughout my lifetime, and I've always been able to find a club or group of archers that were more than willing to help. Some places were easier than others, but they are out there.

Good luck


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

pokynojoe said:


> I guess that would depend on your particular circumstances. Here where I live, this is not the case. A person can come out to our club, and for five dollars can shoot and try out our club equipment, both recurves and compounds all day if they wish. Plus almost all members will let you shoot and try out their bows. I bet this is the same where ever like minded archers congregate. We have a number of members that are very adept at setting up and tuning bows, and offer their service for free. Not only that, for $105.00 per year, that gets you unlimited access to the indoor, 14 stand field and 3D course. Also, we have all the tuning devices, chronographs, bow presses string jigs( both for recurve and one we made ourselves that can apply up to 300lbs. per sq. in" tension for the compounders), someone will fletch your arrows for you or you can do it yourself, we have all kinds of jigs. The only additional charge is two dollars everytime you shoot a 3D round, in order to help cover the cost of replacement. We also have level 1 and level II instructors that will help you for free, if you so desire instruction. If you don't, no one will bother you, and you can shoot how you want, as long as it's safely. You have to ask for instruction at our club. When the time comes that you might wish to purchase your own equipment, we can also help with too, through a discount program with have with wholesalers(some of our members have been in this game for over 50 years and are very well connected throughout the archery world!)
> I guess I'm just lucky. I know it's not like this everywhere, and if you live in remote locations, I guess you're on your own. However, I've lived in a lot of places in this country throughout my lifetime, and I've always been able to find a club or group of archers that were more than willing to help. Some places were easier than others, but they are out there.
> 
> Good luck


Daaaang...what an AWESOME club!!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Got 3 in mind..Morrison Phenolic, Looking at the Dryads but leaning heavily towards a Border Black Douglas Super Swift..but gagging on the cost. :laugh:





JINKSTER said:


> Look...i know these cnc machined wonder bows are lights out state-of-the-art shooting phenoms of our time..but they just don't speak to my soul..


You do realize that at least two of the three you have listed use CNC machines don't you? (maybe even all three)

Now please...hand over the shovel. Someone really is going to get hurt.

:wink:

KPC


----------



## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Better keep the shovel ... it's really getting deep! :cow:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> You do realize that at least two of the three you have listed use CNC machines don't you? (maybe even all three)
> 
> Now please...hand over the shovel. Someone really is going to get hurt.
> 
> ...


Of course i realize that..heck there was just a big recent dispute between morrison and a supplier..and dryad sure as shid ain't gonna keep up supply and demand hand widdling them out one by one as i almost certain neither is border..matter fact?..i go as far to say that unless it's bubba's bows cottage start-up?..it would be flat out stupid NOT to...the scrap rate would be rediculous..no two would be shaped alike...and i'll even go as far as to say my very own 2001 Bob Lee i bought over a decade ago looks way to much like every other Bob Lee to have been hand carved out by Bobs trusty right hand lead man..Pancho...what i don't get is your point?...when it comes to bows i like woodies...to me?..they have a different warm blooded spirit about them..they are more my style these days..and i can definantly tell by the spirit of your postings you probably prefer cold, hard aluminum..have a nice life sport.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Of course i realize that..heck there was just a big recent dispute between morrison and a supplier..and dryad sure as shid ain't gonna keep up supply and demand hand widdling them out one by one as i almost certain neither is border..matter fact?..i go as far to say that unless it's bubba's bows cottage start-up?..it would be flat out stupid NOT to...the scrap rate would be rediculous..no two would be shaped alike...and i'll even go as far as to say my very own 2001 Bob Lee i bought over a decade ago looks way to much like every other Bob Lee to have been hand carved out by Bobs trusty right hand lead man..Pancho...what i don't get is your point?...when it comes to bows i like woodies...to me?..they have a different warm blooded spirit about them..they are more my style these days..and i can definantly tell by the spirit of your postings you probably prefer cold, hard aluminum..have a nice life sport.


My bad. 

I thought you said that CNC stuff didn't speak to your soul. I must have misread that.

As to the "spirit" of my postings. When a poster uses one of these...

:wink:

it's a pretty good indication that he's razzing you...sport.

:confused3:

KPC


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

This BS perpetual argument that it is or it isn’t a trad bow is about as boring as watching grass grow. 

It does not matter if the riser or riser section is made of 24 carat gold or balsam wood, and made by the Fairy Godmother using her magic wand; nor does it matter if the bow is equipped with sights, string peep, adjustable rest, adjustable draw-weight and tiller, shooting carbon, using an FF string, you use a mechanical release, etc., etc. As long as the bow has a riser, 2 limbs, and a string, and does not have wheels or the draw is not mechanically assisted or relieved in any other manner, the damn bow is a classic recurve or longbow, commonly referred to as a “trad” bow.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

WindWalker said:


> This BS perpetual argument that it is or it isn’t a trad bow is about as boring as watching grass grow.
> 
> It does not matter if the riser or riser section is made of 24 carat gold or balsam wood, and made by the Fairy Godmother using her magic wand; nor does it matter if the bow is equipped with sights, string peep, adjustable rest, adjustable draw-weight and tiller, shooting carbon, using an FF string, you use a mechanical release, etc., etc. As long as the bow has a riser, 2 limbs, and a string, and does not have wheels or the draw is not mechanically assisted or relieved in any other manner, the damn bow is a classic recurve or longbow, commonly referred to as a “trad” bow.


You forgot Pixie Dust and MOJO...mines gotz lotsa both..so i guess i should be offended that you forgot to mention them..but i'm not..and i seriously believe it's because of the Pixie Dust..or?..maybe it's the MoJo...guess we'll never know. :laugh:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> You forgot Pixie Dust and MOJO...mines gotz lotsa both..so i guess i should be offended that you forgot to mention them..but i'm not..and i seriously believe it's because of the Pixie Dust..or?..maybe it's the MoJo...guess we'll never know. :laugh:


I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't crack cocaine. That might explain why so many of us are addicted to this sport 

Ray :shade:


----------



## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I guess we need a new forum, "Modern Recurve" that way we won't make any of the "Trad Police" upset? I love shooting all 20+ of my recurves and longbows, oh ya even the selfbow off the knuckle.... I guess they are not all "Trad", I am beginning to hate that word, guess I am just a recurve and longbow hunter/shooter.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

rsarns said:


> I guess we need a new forum, "Modern Recurve"


Nope, this thread was about discussing where traditional archery is heading. Anyone who thinks its boring or doesn't think we should be discussing it can LEAVE.

No one is forced to post here.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Destroyer:

I think before you start with your usual smart-mouthing and your usual advising others to take a hike, I suggest you take a course in reading comprehension. Mingled with the responses to the question: _"Is archery going down the wrong path?"_ is also the perpetual and boring debate: "It's not trad, yes it is, no it's not..." I and others with TIG have a dog in that fight and will have our say and have the credentials to do so. 

How long you been shooting a traditional bow?


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> I think before you start with your usual smart-mouthing and your usual advising others to take a hike


Not often I tell people to 'take a hike', prove that I have (easy to do a search). Smart mouthing? Whats your problem? Just looking for a fight since someone in particular isn't here or looking to have the thread locked?

Btw I started in 1986, switched to compounds in the early 90's then went back to trad in the late 90's, then went back to compound in 2006. Why is that important?


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Whats your problem?_


I and others being told to "LEAVE" when we are engaged in a legitimate debate and we have the background to do so?


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> I and others being told to "LEAVE" when we are engaged in a legitimate debate


Do you really think that your statement 'is about as boring as watching grass grow' was ok? If it is so boring then why would you still post? The easiest thing to do is to not post, I've been doing this for a while now and I'm much happier. Plenty of topics bore me too but I don't write that and I sure don't go on a personal attack about somebody's 'usual' behavior.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Do you really think that your statement 'is about as boring as watching grass grow' was ok?


Yep...sure do!


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Then why bother posting? Nothing kills a topic faster than no responses, well except on this trad forum.


----------



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Then why bother posting?


Because that was my _short_ response. You auditioning for a "moderator" position?


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep, people here should look out.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Oh Dear Lord..sorry i looked.. :lalala:


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Unbelievable.


----------



## parkerd (Sep 30, 2010)

jinkster said:


> oh dear lord..sorry i looked.. :lalala:


x2!!!


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I think it depends on the person you ask and the forum you ask it on. There was a time when I thought that metal bows and carbon arrows had no business being called Trad, but I lived and shot on another continent then and kinda got influenced by the rules and traditions there.
To me archery is just archery and most of us have the desire to get better for various reasons. For me it's competition so I follow with interest the advice of Jimmy, Larry Yien, Rod Jenkins, Steve Morley etc because they are where I want to be and learning good solid form and technique is crucial and all these guys are very generous with their time and advice.


----------



## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Reminder Text masking is not allowed. This thread needs to get back on the path or it will vanish.


----------



## bjleslie (Aug 28, 2006)

1935 Redlands, CA....a little group of rough neck archers who wanted to make more noise (archery was like golf back then) have more fun & didn't care much for the "traditions" of archery invented field archery (the mother of 3D ). Target archery "traditional" was considered a lawn game & because the target archers used sights or points of aim they were all ruled out. They were later allowed to play the game but given thier own tournaments so they didn't "steal" the sport. Any bow, except crossbows, & any arrow, that didn't ruin the targets, was allowed.
So technically, unless you are shooting FITA type archery, you ain't "trad"...

I voted yes, not because of the above, but because I think of trad as not so much shooting style or equpment related but a state of mind where you enjoy yourself, conduct yourself so that those around you have fun too & that includes not bending the rules for a trinket. 

for the jinkster...









the one on top, you know you want it, your kids will just spend the money on something you wouldn't have bought them anyway.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

bjleslie said:


> that includes not bending the rules for a trinket.


:thumbs_up

I think its worth protecting. I'll keep shooting my ILF's and while I could put them in the 'Traditional' category, they are not exactly imo, more barebow recurve than anything. I can see value in having rules to govern what classifies as what, where does it all end otherwise? If sights become really popular will they be included to?


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

bjleslie said:


> for the jinkster...
> 
> View attachment 1335157
> 
> ...


Yep...she's a beaut..and?...That is by far...he meanest thing anyone has ever done to me on Easter. :laugh:


----------



## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

I hope fellow traddies continue to strive to be better and not accept p poor shooting and blaming the method. Compitition is great. deer season lasts 3 months here...3D season goes 7-8 thankfully


----------



## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

When it comes to bowhunting with my recurve bows, I've ALWAYS made my own trail which means I follow the beat of my own drum and not other's drums.


----------



## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Double S said:


> Reminder Text masking is not allowed.


What is this and why is it not allowed?


----------



## LAMADMAN (Aug 17, 2006)

Arcus said:


> What is this and why is it not allowed?


you know when you hide a four letter word like $#!+ >>> Just helping


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Night Wing said:


> When it comes to bowhunting with my recurve bows, I've ALWAYS made my own trail which means I follow the beat of my own drum and not other's drums.



Ok fellas, the above statement if read and thought about should close the argument. Seriously , that's what it's all about...what works for you.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Night Wing said:


> When it comes to bowhunting with my recurve bows, I've ALWAYS made my own trail which means I follow the beat of my own drum and not other's drums.


I follow the beat of my own drum too. Problem is, I just don't have any rhythm.

:wink:

KPC


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Curve1 said:


> Seriously , that's what it's all about...what works for you.


For classifications you need some guidelines.


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Destroyer said:


> For classifications you need some guidelines.


???


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

What don't you understand?


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

If it dont have wheels on it I call it longbows and recurves. Unless you're talkin about different classifications for longbows and recurves divisions in tournaments.
I thought the thread was about general qualifications for what's trad and what aint. I personally could care less.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Curve1 said:


> If it dont have wheels on it I call it longbows and recurves.


Fine but not all recurves are traditional. Olympic bows aren't, bows with sights aren't either.



Curve1 said:


> I thought the thread was about general qualifications for what's trad and what aint.


It is.



Curve1 said:


> I personally could care less.


Real nice.


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

Destroyer said:


> Fine but not all recurves are traditional. Olympic bows aren't, bows with sights aren't either.


Is that why bunch of those non "traditional" Bears, Wings, Widows and others from the 50's, 60's and 70's have two holes drilled in the riser?????


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Not for a quiver is it.


----------



## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

Not in the face of the riser.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

So? Do you want to include sights because they used them at the time? Is traditional a time period?


----------



## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

"Traditional" for some is an attempt to recreate something that that never existed.


----------



## Tab Bender (Sep 14, 2007)

A religious cult that started in the sport of archery some time in the late 70's or early 80's I think.


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Destroyer said:


> Fine but *not all recurves are traditional*. Olympic bows aren't, bows with sights aren't either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not all recurves are traditional? Do you shoot a self bow? homemade arrows with self nocks? Sinew string? When you say not traditional, do you mean pre-1950? before laminated bows? before plastic nocks? before dacron or d-97 strings?
If you're referring to pre-1940, you would be right. Only those that shoot self bows with homemade sinew or horn backing would qualify.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Olympic is traditional? They have there own forum and you still think they are? Did you read that next word after the bold?


----------



## bjleslie (Aug 28, 2006)

Destroyer said:


> Not for a quiver is it.


This is a good illustration of "bending the rules".. There were bow quivers around before Bear came out with his in the late 50s but they weren't very popular. So is that long enough ago to make them traditional? Then you go to a shoot and there are a number of people walking around with a bow quiver & a back quiver. These aren't guys who lose a lot of arrows, so they have morphed the bow quiver into a make shift stabilizer. Does only shooting with X number of arrows in the bow quiver make them nontraditional? If so how do you police it? 

Many people will go to asinine lengths to obtain an edge, real or imagined, in any kind of competition. Getting bent out of shape because someone is using an edge that you either hadn't thought of or don't personally accept is good for what? Your blood pressure? So just go, enjoy yourself, accept that traditional is whatever the hosting organization says it is at that place & time. If you don't agree with the definition, change your equipment, change classes or don't shoot but get over it.


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Tourney rules are in place in an attempt to keep it an even playing field, what I'm begining to see is some Archers using IBO/IFAA/WA etc tourney rules to determine what is/isn't trad anymore, for example IFAA Longbow rule requires a 'D' shape when strung bow, they're not saying any other type of Longbow isn't a Longbow, just this is the bow required for this tourney.


Some people like to shoot with less gadgets because they get better satisfaction when making a good shot, it doesn't give them the right to feel or be superiour to somebody who chooses to use and elevated rest, plunger, metal riser etc, we all have the same goal of being the best we can with our chosen equipment, far too much seperation with aiming/equipment creating a them and us attitude, we are all brothers in Archery :darkbeer:


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

bjleslie said:


> Does only shooting with X number of arrows in the bow quiver make them nontraditional? If so how do you police it?


Nothing against quivers but making them use the arrows in the quiver means the weight of the bow will change each time a arrow gets taken out, which will change point of impact, which means the accuracy will change. Could make them less popular.



bjleslie said:


> If you don't agree with the definition, change your equipment, change classes or don't shoot but get over it.


:thumbs_up



steve morley said:


> what I'm begining to see is some Archers using IBO/IFAA/WA etc tourney rules to determine what is/isn't trad anymore


The influence of competition, I don't really like it either.



steve morley said:


> Some people like to shoot with less gadgets because they get better satisfaction when making a good shot, it doesn't give them the right to feel or be superior


I have never felt superior and I'm betting most don't. Sometimes archers can be made to feel inferior by others for a bit of fun or to try and get at you but there are ways and means to fix their little red wagons.

Its a bit like the whole instinctive vs gap debate. Gap shooters were looked upon as cheating by some but it never was cheating, its a great way of shooting a bow.


----------



## minnie3 (Jul 28, 2009)

i just arrived home from one of the best archery weekends i've ever had. 
a traditional rendezvous where bows were required to be shot off the shelf and with timbers. 
first time i've shot a recurve away from my practice range as i usually shoot womens barebow compound in 3d competition. i've only been shooting a single string bow for about 6 months, and i shot a samick sage and some club timbers. enjoyed every minute and shot the 3d ranges quite well amongst some great shooters. went along as it was the easter long weekend and i'd never been to a gathering like this. lots of folk shooting with their hunting gear (minus the broadheads). many different types of bows and styles of shooting. a few of us target people were there for the enjoyment of shooting. had a great time with the running targets, the speed rounds and the flu flu bow birds and another game. i even ordered my own dozen custom timbers for next time. destroyer, you should have been there for the fun.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

minnie3 said:


> destroyer, you should have been there for the fun.


Yep! Sounds like a heap of fun. Good to hear you enjoyed yourself too.


----------



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

I guess those Turk warriors would have caught hell using those thumb rings.:wink:


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Destroyer said:


> Its a bit like the whole instinctive vs gap debate. Gap shooters were looked upon as cheating by some but it never was cheating, its a great way of shooting a bow.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Destroyer said:


> Its a bit like the whole instinctive vs gap debate. Gap shooters were looked upon as cheating by some but it never was cheating, its a great way of shooting a bow.


Why would gap shooting be looked on as cheating...:confused3: In a competitive situation how would you even monitor or enforce such a rule?


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Easykeeper said:


> Why would gap shooting be looked on as cheating...


It was by some archers because you were using an edge (arrow point) to aim, like using a sight.


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

When reading these threads it often seems to me that the most "trad" people are the ones whom are quite new to shooting bows without sights ... what we call barebow . And that's okay as maybe they got burnt out by the constant upfgarde and hype from the world of compounds ... which by the way are fine fine shooting bows that allow many people to enjoy good accuracy ... the same people whom may not have the time , money nor inclination to participate otherwise . 

Archery , "trad archery" oer whatever you want to call it is quite healthy ... more people shooting today than a few years back and many finding out that their simple stick and string can be very accurate ... that they don't have to languish in mediocrity .

there are many many ways to achieve accuracy ... the least of which IMHO has anything to do with equipment . Perhaps some of us should go back and read Hill ,Schulz and Pope ... Archers whom were successful in the fiels and often on the range ... archers who knew about form ...and its benefits . 

Also have a look at Jimmy Blackmon , Rod Jenkins and Larry Yien ... they seem to do okay too 

There was a time, years ago, when shooting recurves with 5 hunting pins was normal ... that bowhunters also shot Field ranges out to 80 yards , and shot them well ... but apparently , somewhere in the mix , there seems to be some aspect and undercurrent of "cheating" ..., dare I say " Aiming " and not being part of the " club"... and again ... these insinuations are often from guys who appear to be relatively new to "trad" ...

and its all a load of absolute bollocks !!!

and before anyone gets the knickers all twsited up ... I am a bit of grip it and rip instinctor when out with my longbows ..... but even on the shoting line I couldn't give a rats ass what aiming system you use ........

I shoot longbows ... straight ones ... and they are usually shooting wood arrows that I carry in a back quiver ... coz thats how I roll ... I'ain't re-eancting anything ... just enjoying myself in my hobby in the way I want to coz its fun ... remember that ? ... ... much the same as my ILF rig ... that has hunting pins and a short stab .. and heaven forbid ... a metal riser ... much like Bear used to make before a bunch of people posting here on this forum were born 


I remember When archery was fun ? ... apparently some here don't ... its a well regulated guide book of others opinions ... and they seem unfounded opinions 

And my 25" risered oly rig is about as sweet as can be and a tack driver to boot ..... heresy ain't it ......

And there was a time and when archers were just archers ... being accurate was something to be worked at and proud of ... 

them were the days


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Easykeeper said:


> Why would gap shooting be looked on as cheating...:confused3: In a competitive situation how would you even monitor or enforce such a rule?


10-12 years ago I was winning our (UK) Nationals in Longbow Div by a good 100 points (4th/5th was like 300 points down) and I also outshot a Recurve div, they decided I was cheating purely on my scores as they just said it just wasn't possible to shoot such scores (they have double scoring and youre not allowed to score your own card) it only died down 3-4 years later when a couple of other guys started shooting similar high scores.

Also they had a hardcore minority that said Instinct was the only way to shoot Longbow (and it had to be a Hill Longbow) they decided I must be Gapping by my scores, they were so vocal with their opinions that I knew a few Gappers that lied about their aiming just so they wouldn't get a hard time. At one Nationals I was standing at the stake about to take a shot and this guy walked up to me and started shouting at me that I was cheating and my bow wasn't legal, I just to him to go away and take it up with the officials.

It really was only a group of 30-40 Archers but they were so vocal/fanatical about their opinions it struck dread in a lot of Archers hearts, personally I didn't give a toss what they thought, still not a pleasant way to enjoy what is supposed to be a fun and relaxing pastime


----------



## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> When reading these threads it often seems to me that the most "trad" people are the ones whom are quite new to shooting bows without sights ... what we call barebow . And that's okay as maybe they got burnt out by the constant upfgarde and hype from the world of compounds ... which by the way are fine fine shooting bows that allow many people to enjoy good accuracy ... the same people whom may not have the time , money nor inclination to participate otherwise .
> 
> Archery , "trad archery" oer whatever you want to call it is quite healthy ... more people shooting today than a few years back and many finding out that their simple stick and string can be very accurate ... that they don't have to languish in mediocrity .
> 
> ...


Pretty much right on.....:thumbs_up...from my perspective anyway..


I shoot all kinds of bows as well..and use a back quiver..side quiver..and a bow quiver.....hell I sometimes even wear a floppy hat and a flannel shirt...:angel:.....but not always..My favorite bow is a original Earl Hoyt built metal riser recurve..and I shoot it off a center rest..not off the shelf..Here's the real kicker..._"back in the day " _ those that shot off the shelf..were really jealous of that rest..Why..simple...it allowed and still does..those who choose to to use either plastic vanes...or feathers...and when NAP came out with it..they couldn't build them fast enough...and I know plenty of people who elected to have their risers drilled and the bushings installed just so they could have this option..It wasn't about being or not being "trad" or not..no one really gave a rats butt about that..except for a very few...and those guys hated every thing except their own style of bows..The thing about it...it was to give the archer an advantage when hunting of not using feathers in the wet...Is it "traditional"...actually no it isn't..it's a modern convenience...but...I sure as hell don't care either way...because it works great..but those who are in charge of those 3d tournaments sure do...and that is where most of all of this stupid back & forth issue is coming from...Many here don't like to hear that..because..they enjoy shooting these tournaments...it's fun...and I agree...but I also know some of them feel saying it like this supposedly "divides" us...and that is a crock of crap IMHO...It's all about fitting a persons equipment and how they shoot into a category so folks can play by their rules..._"to keep a level playing field and keep people from cheating"_..This is also the main reason I really dislike any type of these events..because it is these people who play in these games..that are trying to dictate what is and what isn't traditional...When I go to one of these events...I don't shoot with the "traditionalist"...and for good reason....and I refuse to shoot in my "class"...because I don't shoot at the closer stakes..

The world doesn't revolve around tournament archery...but...I do know this... they sure as hell what to make it so. I walk my own path..and don't really care where others try to classify my equipment..or how I shoot..

If you want to play in their world...you have to play by their rules..or shoot against those who could really care less..and those I found who could really care less... to be the guys who shoot with sights...and even compound participants..Certainly not those who claim to be traditionalist..and shout the loudest at anyone that isn't like them...or might be shooting differently..._The guys shooting sights and compounds...those are the guys whose scores I try to emulate..because they are the best shooters..and...most are more impressed with the fact you want to hang out with them and shoot at their distances on any given day with out being intimidated ._...To me..that is my benchmark...and who I feel Recurve/Long bow shooters should really try to beat..and stop worrying about what is..and what isn't traditional...It's just a classification someone else made up to play a game..

Unless of course you want to be a _elitist_...and just look down on anyone not playing by their rules..which is what some here sound an awful lot like they do...There is others here though...Those that I call _"purest"_...and just don't like modern metal risers...or ILF rigs...These folks I can understand and agree with much easier...A awesome 1 piece wood bow feels totally different than any thing else being built...Some of these folks are the ones looking for a spiritual or "Zen" "like" experience...and only a certain type of rig is going to satisfy them..justly so I say...and fully understand their position ... Still others just have a personal dislike for them...they just don't like the way they fell or look..or the materials used in them...it's not a spiritual thing..or romanticizing about the past....they just have a personal preference...To these folks...I say "to each their own" and be happy with what you are shooting......but be careful when trying to classify where you belong in the tournament world..because they have their own classification for you and "what is or isn't traditional "...and it might not please you to know how they classify your choices in equipment or how you shoot them....since you feel other wise...but...it's their sand box your trying to play in...

I for one am thankful I can choose to walk any path I want to..and choose to shoot against any one I elect to..and is the reason I don't participate in most of these games people like to play...Maybe one day...every one else will feel the same way...and stop all of this nonsense..and just be the best archer you can be..

Mac


----------

