# Professional Archery Association



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

How can us archers start a legitiment Professional Archery Association ? I would like to have input from all fellow AT'ers on how we can build such an Association. This is just hypothetical and an idea. I would like to see large sponsers, TV coverage and most of all organized Nation wide. Let's here your guys ideas if we could create a True and Crediable Professional Association.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

I love to shoot 3-D, with a passion but to be honest it bores me to death watching someone else shoot unless it is for a shoot off then the hype is there. Good luck because that would really do this sport right.


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## Billy Dover (Jan 22, 2004)

*Maybe ask....*

Maybe you can get ahold of the former presidents of the APA (Association of Professional Archers) and ask them how to. They had a really cool logo, but the organization just kinda fizzled. I still have one of their hats!
Later,
Billy


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

First------ I wouldn't worry about the "Professional" part. Develop a format of an archery game that is more exciting and more visible. Find a way to make it more interesting for spectators.......... Putt Putt championships/tournaments, bowling.......... heck, even billiards are on TV. A little hooting and hollering from the audience made bowling more fun for TV. If Levi Morgan says no one will be close to him at Metropolis. I bet there would be some excitement. How about a "skins" game of archery? What about team 3D where each manufacturer would put a team up and the teams would shoot together. The targets and stakes would have to be set differently but they would be beside each other knowing what the other team scored. I think that's something indoor spot shooting and world cup shooting has that 3D only has in the ASA pro shootoffs.

The "professional" organizations don't start before there is an audience. MLB came about long after baseball was being played all across the country. The ASA and the IBO were started well after we were already shooting foam animals.............


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

good stuff guys keep the ideas coming


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## WindyCityKen (Jun 4, 2008)

I was down at the Valdosta shoot when the ASA was first introduced, for the next season. You are describing exactly what the ASA was suppose to be. Well, that was what, 15 years ago now?

I think the basis for a Professional Archers Assosciation has already been laid by the ASA. I am not sure what it will take for the ASA, or any archery organization to go to the next level, but I would sure like to see it happen.


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

Professional Archery Association Your to late there was a PAA I was a member once in the 70's. They were recurve bows only and finally folded. After the NFFA pro's was formed. They even had they own round and target. If you go to Martin history you see them. I think it's a PAA is a registered trade mark.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

There was the APA BACK in the 90s mostly formed by 3d pro shooters


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## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

I think the new ASA indoor format will be very exciting to watch. Go to asaarchery.com and look at the rules. you have to hit every scoring ring (8,10,12,14) and if you hit any of them twice you get a zero for that score. It will be very exciting and maybe it will be just what we need to get some big corporate sponsors and TV deals. It would be great if we could get more prize money and exposure to the sport that we all love. I Wish ESPN could possibly air the vegas shootoff next year. They show bowling, darts, and billiards now. Archery is a lot more exciting than that!


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## sagitarius (Sep 11, 2007)

This may be obvious but, I think the trick is to convince a TV network (The Outdoor Channel, ESPN, Wild TV, etc.) that we would watch this sort of thing. If there is money to be made, someone will make it happen.


What about some guys with decent camera equipment getting permission at a local club to cover thier shoot, then taking the tapes to the networks?


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## sagitarius (Sep 11, 2007)

Another thought.

There are too many different classes. I think that it would really need to be narrowed down to fewer classes to make it less confusing for spectators.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

We shoot a game here in jacksonville called the wedge. It is a combo of golf (cause lowest score wins) and fita shooting. I'll post some pics up of the target in a bit. But it can be insteresting.


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

There are too many archery organizations now, each with their own set of rules...ASA, IBO, NAA, NFAA, International Archery Federation, International Field Archery Association


What is there to be gained with starting another?


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

YRhinefield said:


> There are too many archery organizations now, each with their own set of rules...ASA, IBO, NAA, NFAA, International Archery Federation, International Field Archery Association
> 
> 
> What is there to be gained with starting another?



The reason for starting another league is to make one that is more professional like other major sports. One where real money will be paid out , TV coverage and better organized. As stated before there are to many classes right now for archers to shoot in. There should be no more than 3 classes and then the Pro class. We also need automatic bump up for shooters in each class. A televised tournament for archers who would like to become pro
like the PGA's qualifing school. This could be a great thing if people will open their minds to new ideas. Don't be brain washed by the lazy IBO and other organized they have not done their best in promoting a great sport.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Too many classes now. The 3D orgs need to trim down to about about 6 classes overall.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

cenochs said:


> The reason for starting another league is to make one that is more professional like other major sports. One where real money will be paid out , TV coverage and better organized. As stated before there are to many classes right now for archers to shoot in. There should be no more than 3 classes and then the Pro class. We also need automatic bump up for shooters in each class. A televised tournament for archers who would like to become pro
> like the PGA's qualifing school. This could be a great thing if people will open their minds to new ideas. Don't be brain washed by the lazy IBO and other organized they have not done their best in promoting a great sport.


One big problem that would be to be faced, is the number of shoots available. As of right now there aren't that many shoots to use. NFL has a 16 week regular season with playoffs and pre-season games added for about 24 weeks of games. The NHL has 82 games ++, so your looking at 6 months or better of hockey. The NBA, NASCAR, NCAA all have long seasons that can be televised. 

ASA has 7 Pro-Am events. NFAA has 3 marquis indoor events. That is 10 events with a shoot-down type format at the end to put on TV. It will be very hard to convince a major corporate sponsor and a TV network to incur the expense of televising 10 shows for the year.

Archery has a small percentage of the population participating. Unfortunately all the existing organizations are pulling from the same "player pool" so to speak. In order for a new organization to start up and flourish means that existing archers are gonna have to spend even more time on the road or give up one of the existing games. Only a handful of the Pro's are able to just shoot archery and not have to worry about a day job. The more time spent on the road is more time away from work.

Here's a place to start. Before trying to re-invent the wheel, try and get a film crew to record the Shoot-down in Vegas, or at any ASA Pro-Am. Send it to the Outdoor Channel or ESPN or the Sportsman Network and see what they say. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I am saying that it isn't as simple as saying "Let's do it".


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

I have to agree with spoon in the sense the best way to create interest would be to show a network that you can get viewers to watch a tournament. I think the best bet would be to film one of the world champion ships...rather it be 3D or Spots....Edit it correctly to build drama then show the whole final shoot off for the win. 

The thing with television is no matter what you're showing you still have to have a story to it. Just like a movie or a book it has to have a beginning that sets-up the plot. Maybe interviews with the pros talking about who won the last shoot and what are they going to do to step up there game and beat that one person. Then you have to have a good plot. Show some footage of say Levi or McCathy practicing preparing for another "win" Then you finish off the movie with a climatic scene....the final two archers, last two arrows flinging towards the target...(create a tension moment by not showing who made the better shot until a judge walks down and scores the arrows) Then show the excitement and celebration of the winner. If you can do that and repeat it with different shooters and events you could create a marketable product.


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## sagitarius (Sep 11, 2007)

I think you would have to model it similar to televised golf. I mean golf is the closest, of all the major sports, to 3D. 

-Start with a large number of shooters
-Have a cut after the first or second day
-Highlight the good and terrible shots (If there were 50 shooters, it would mean 1000 shots per day. Shouldn't be hard to fill the time slot)
-20 targets per day (about the same 18 holes)
-interviews 
-etc.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Good stuff all the ideas and comments are great. Keep them coming.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

The thing with making the archery/golf comparison is that there are only 3 pro classes in Golf that get on TV. Men, Women, Senior Men. How many Pro Archery Classes are worth watching? 1. PMR/Open Pro. 
There are too many ameteur Classes. Trim it down to 3 or 4. Open, Hunter Class (where hunting equipment is used less broadheads) Fingers and Traditional. There are too many redundant ameteur classes. Ex. HC and AHC. Difference being 2.5 yards. What a joke. 
Am I the only one that thinks hunter class should be all Camo bows, wrist strap releases, screw on points and 50 yard max.?


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## sagitarius (Sep 11, 2007)

cath8r said:


> The thing with making the archery/golf comparison is that there are only 3 pro classes in Golf that get on TV. Men, Women, Senior Men. How many Pro Archery Classes are worth watching? 1. PMR/Open Pro.
> There are too many ameteur Classes. Trim it down to 3 or 4. Open, Hunter Class (where hunting equipment is used less broadheads) Fingers and Traditional. There are too many redundant ameteur classes. Ex. HC and AHC. Difference being 2.5 yards. What a joke.
> Am I the only one that thinks hunter class should be all Camo bows, wrist strap releases, screw on points and 50 yard max.?



Couldn't agree more.

In fact I made a post earlier in the thread in which I said that the number of classes would need to be narrowed down a lot.


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## Justin17 (May 4, 2006)

I think if archers would build up a tournament the way boxers build up a big fight we could really have something. You need to create true rivalries.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I have been reading these with great interest, and I don't think another association is needed. Most states have there own organization that has ties to clubs in their prospective states. 
The IBO and ASA already have difficulty scheduling events without stepping on each other. Add another organization to the mix and I believe you would take away from what has been built up by IBO and ASA. 
Here in VA the VBA has tournaments throughout the year and between those three, there is hardly a weekend that you can't be shooting somewhere local. 
If we throw our support to the big 2 and our state organizations I believe it would be time better spent and much money saved. IBO and ASA already have the train on the tracks. More support to them would mean expansion for them and more benefits to the shooters. (who BTW are the heartbeat of all these)
It is nice to brainstrom ways to make things better. But I wouldn't buy a new car because my current one needs air in the tires.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Maybe get the speeds and classes in line between the 2 orgs. Maybe settle on 295 fps max so there is parity between the ASA and IBO. That might help.


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## redboyd7 (Nov 5, 2010)

Your all talking about exactly what was being talked about in the late 1950's. The P.A.A had all these same arguments. It eventually failed because they would not make changes that were needed. Watching people shoot at Las Vegas is for most people very boring. Every year the number of people shooting perfect rises in all of the men's events. The 2009 shootoff lasted more than 30 arrows. An entire round. I did not see anything about the women shooters. Did they have a shoot off???????? Big mistake. If you want to make archery a spectator sport shouldn't it be for women and children too? How about this for an idea. Start by lowering everyones's score. Make it harder to shoot perfect. Equal the playing field for men and women. Start scoring all arrows in all competition inside out. Arrow has to not touch the line. If it does it is the lower score. Limit all competion to aluminum arrows, with a maximum of .0018 wall thickness. Now all those trying to shoot the biggest diamater arrow would be trying to shoot the smallest diamater, and more inpotamtly lighter bow weight.


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## hoytbowhunting (Sep 5, 2005)

Bowdon said:


> Professional Archery Association Your to late there was a PAA I was a member once in the 70's. They were recurve bows only and finally folded. After the NFFA pro's was formed. They even had they own round and target. If you go to Martin history you see them. I think it's a PAA is a registered trade mark.


this is exactly right my buddy Steve Robinson was one of the shooters in the PAA he always talks about how much he loved that organization, the pay out was good and they even paid down to like 30th place in most shoots............he sad after the nfaa took over things went crazy and thats how it ended....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Going to take pro archers from all assc. to get together and agree. Not sure if that can happen.

But if archery ever going to get good sponsors it going to take a Pro assc like this to get it done. 

First off you got to have a president that got connections and exspertise in field. 

I think there some top pros with credentials to get this to happen.

Promblem is will you get the support of NFAA and ASA and Fita. There where the promblem lies to get some thing like this off the ground.
DB


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone is pretty much on.

Professional being professional and 3D being what it is, 3D shooting arrangements would have to be changed. Like how many 3D ranges can permit good camera coverage? Or Field ranges for that matter. Outdoor and indoor target maybe, but 100s on the line and the Pros not together? Basically, 3D contests would have to be set up in Shoot Down manner, so many shooters for so many targets and some way to acknowledge the scores, a giant score board. This way the camera crew can focus on the leaders and the audience can see both the scores and who the leaders are. For the "couch" sitters. You need a stadium or area for bleachers or like golf courses, room to see. Set as is, paper target shooting could follow in the same manner. So not to get things lost, you said "Professional." People aren't going to watch "also rans." Meaning, you need the top seeded archers in the world.
And our other problem. Who will watch? If meant for fellow archers, guess what? They are out on the range somewhere. So then you're talking primer time evening TV hours. During these hours you're looking at needing big time sponsors for both the archers and buying that TV time.

Daniel mentioned FITA. Well, FITA has the Olympics tied up with non-compound bows. Best guess for seeing compounds in the Olympics is said to be in another 12 years or more. So I can't see FITA helping in a manner to get things going.

Maybe we need to go to Europe and find out what's going on. I read it somewhere not to long ago. Over in Europe archery coverage can be really big time. I think the article said "standing room" only at this stadium.

Another problem and people don't look at it. We are stuck in a rut. Winter time rolls around and it League time - The same ole thing year in and year out. Personally, I sick to death of shooting leagues and the long periods for leagues to run. 10 weeks to see who the winners are going to be? This sucks. And then handicaps to run a league. Why? So to keep the losers close to the eventual winners, a give them hope thing. What happens with leagues as it goes forth? Shooters begin dropping off. They are either tired of shooting 60 arrows week after week or the winners out distancing them - they know they can't win. Just being on the line doesn't get it. Still, the many people go to the nationals, but here they are playing in the Big Show, not some local, down home tournament -a prestige thing.


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## Hopperton (Oct 30, 2005)

I will tell you what. If ASA were over more of the country it would get big fast, and if it were nation wide I think the rest would fall into place. I would be all about helping do what ever I could to make something good happen in Archery. I would give up all summer hobbies to get this working.

I like IBO but I dont think IBO can do this or atleast not alone, maybe if the two joined like NFL and AFL.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

A lot of good feedback has been given here, and I will add a bit to the pot. 

First of all, if it's a "Pro Association" then there needs to be 2 classes. Pro Men and Pro Women, just like golf. You don't (well almost never) enter a PGA event unless you are a Professional golfer. You become a professional by qualifying and earning a tour card. Archery could do that as well. The paradox is that the average joe shooter is not invited to participate. This is bad because it reduces participation yet good because it ensures only the best of the best are shooting.

Then there are sponsorships. The PGA has millions in sponsorships because it has a huge following. Enough people watch golf each weekend that they can sell their event to the networks and all can make $$$. That is where the problem lies in archery. While to us, the shooters, it is great to watch the pros shoot, to the non-archery public it is boring. "Oh look that guy just shot another arrow at an animal target." You could argue the same about golf (oh look, that guy just hit another ball) but the flight of a golfball on TV is marketable. You build up suspense as the ball flies through the air, not showing its landing area until it hits the ground. Keeps the crowd on edge. An arrow, even a 280 fps arrow, is at the target in the blink of an eye. The game needs to become more exciting in order to draw a crowd. 

Finally, target archery needs to become more acceptable to the public. Think about how many public golf courses are in your county. Now think of how many public archery ranges exist in your county. I bet the golf courses win out. Golf is easily obtainable and therefore participation is huge. If as many people shot 3d target archery as there were golfers, televised archery would work easily. However, with limited exposure to the sport, it will be hard to make it happen.

I would love to see a Professional Archery Association that was an elite organization with televised tournaments, but it will be a long hard road to get there. It needs to be simple in format and marketable for the networks. It can be done, and I bet it will happen one day, as there are so many pros and amatures on AT that love the sport. But it will be a challenge.

CG


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## 300MAG (Nov 26, 2005)

If you were going to televise tournaments. The Bass masters on ESPN would be a good template to follow. To just watch fishing on tv would be tough, but they seem to build up the right hipe for their events. they have cameras on all the right fisherman. It would not take much to do the same with archery.


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## jamiepatterson (Jun 26, 2006)

This is something that i tried to do this past year and got alot of response from Vendors and a couple major shoots. I even have a business name (Major League Archery) and website that i am working on called http://www.majorleaguearchery.com. My idea is very similar but a little different. I think we need to use the existing tournaments such as the IBO and the ASA or the NFAA, but set it up just like the PGA and Nascar (winston cups points like system), and give all archers in the pro classes a world ranking. So for example IBO worlds, ASA worlds, Buckmasters, VEGAS, etc.. are your majors and you get 100 points for winning one of these, then you get 50 for second and so on. IBO triple crowns or Buckmasters Quailifiers, or Maybe Lancasters classic could be minor tournaments with a maximum of say 50 points for the winners. This will give a ranking of top 100 competitors, based on last 3 years of tournaments. There is alot more detail to it than this, so just understand this is a summary. Here is the problem i have run into, i have lots of vendors that want to put money into it, but the only support from the actual tournaments has been to give me numbers. In order for archery to get bigger as a whole is we will have to work together. I actually have a commitment from one tournament(cant say, but they want to put in 5000 for and SOY, I also have several vendors that have put up about the same amount for a SOY) Basically you will get points for shooting tournaments even though you may not win you still could end up at the top by competing more. Take Levi morgan, if the pot for SOY ended up at 100,000, he would have to compete in more than just 3d to win. Someone like Gillingham or a shooter that isnt scared to shoot dots one weekend and 3d the next would have a good opportunity to win. The benefit to the vendor and tournaments is they get more people to shoot to win. Then if you want support from a vendor, you could show them you are one of the top 100 shooters in the world based on your class. 

I am looking for more ideas on this. The ranking was going to start with the first tournament of 2011. Please give me some feedback on this. Oh and understand this WILL BE FREE, not something i am looking to make money off of.


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## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

3dshooter25 said:


> I think the new ASA indoor format will be very exciting to watch. Go to asaarchery.com and look at the rules. you have to hit every scoring ring (8,10,12,14) and if you hit any of them twice you get a zero for that score. It will be very exciting and maybe it will be just what we need to get some big corporate sponsors and TV deals. It would be great if we could get more prize money and exposure to the sport that we all love. I Wish ESPN could possibly air the vegas shootoff next year. They show bowling, darts, and billiards now. Archery is a lot more exciting than that!


Hey, billiards can pretty entertaining at times, especially when you know how much money is on the line. But to the point. I've always wondered how billiards could get such high payouts with just a few sponsors. Archery has a lot more corporations involved than billiards. Think about it. Some of those billiard tourneys pay out HUGE!!!!!!!!!! I think the organizations and the manufactures(to some degree) are holding it back. One thing for sure is you would have to eliminate all the classes. Payouts would probably go up if they didn't have to payout to umpteen different classes to accomodate everyone. That's one thing that's different between everything else and archery.


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