# Why flemish twist strings...?



## Kris_H_97 (Sep 2, 2011)

Obviously a new guy question, but I haven't heard exactly what the advantages are of a string that's got flemish twists in it. I found Jim here in the video talking about it at about the 1:00 mark and how the new Bear Bows, at least his Grizzly and my new Grizzly, come with what he considers basically a sub-par string because it doesn't have the twists. What does a flemish string do for you that the "bad" one doesn't?


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## Kris_H_97 (Sep 2, 2011)

Oops, here's the video I was talking about...


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Flemish vs. endless loop is pretty much a matter of preference. There are small differences, but one really isn't better than the other. That said, new Bear Grizzlies do come by default with Flemish twist strings. I've never had a problem with a Bear string, and except for one old Grizzly I bought used, I've never had to replace a Bear string. Unlike many other bowyers / manufacturers, Bear ships their bows with decent strings.

On heavier bows I do have a slight preference for endless loop because, in my personal experience, the loop serving helps protect the loops. But it's not worth replacing a Bear string unless it is beginning to fray.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I go by smell, coin-toss, mood, aesthetic, or various other voodooistics when deciding to construct either a Flemish or endless string for a particular bow. 

Either one, well-made, will do the trick for my purposes. As mentioned above, preference (or perhaps merely convention within a paradigm), is a valid consideration. 

Dunno the stock string's nature on the Bear. Perhaps it is simply a poorly-made or ill-measured string. Sub-par can apply equally to either construction.


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## Joe Hohmann (Oct 24, 2013)

Talking about your Flemish twist strings makes you seem "professional" to new people.


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## Kris_H_97 (Sep 2, 2011)

This is actually making me feel better about what I have, not that I had anything really in particular to be worried about. My stock string seems to work just fine, and I really wouldn't know at this point what a bad or sub-par string would look like less it had obvious strays and frays. Sounds like for this average hunter that either will do the job I need it to do just fine then. Thanks fellas!


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

There a number of questions being presented with this inquiry.

“Why flemish twist strings” is a bit apart from whether or not Bear strings are serviceable, which is a bit apart from “What does a Flemish string do for you that a ‘bad’ one doesn’t?"

Firstly, there are differences between good strings and bad, whether the strings are of endless or Flemish construction. And, aside from the strings that prove faulty from little use, one better learns what constitutes a good string by learning to make them for his/her self. (Yes, one can opt to obtain strings from a proficient builder, but that really doesn’t explain the attention to details that separate the good from bad.)

As far as the strings on modern era Bear bows goes, I simply don’t have any experience with them….but what is shown on the video is something I would never use on a bow, period. It would simply be very difficult for me to comprehend Bear supplying such a poorly made string with their product…but, again, as I can’t speak for that string being the original string for that bow, I’ll have to stop short sending them a nasty letter.

In a nutshell, that loop should not increase in size by reverse twisting the string. Properly made, the loops are constructed to a definite size that does not change with a few turns…and should not have a chance of changing at all until nearly all the twists are taken out of the string. 

What a good Flemish or endless string does for me is it that it adds a measure of reliability with turning a stick into a bow. Rick.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

Endless loop are suppose to be slightly faster. Endless loops have half the amount of string material that goes around the tip of the limb. Flemish twists will have a little thicker eyelet holes. With modern string materials that difference can be overcome. IMO. The jig for a continuous string is simple, so people like easy. The flemish jig, with all the cribbage looking holes, looks more complicated. So, seems harder. You can easily make a flemish string with simple tools. i.e. two nails, tape measure, hammer and either a long table or two saw horses. I do 3 bundles for flemish but, a lot of bigger shops use 2 bundles. Saves them material, so cost is lower. Each bundle is twisted clock-wise but, then is twisted counter clock-wise for the formation of the string.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Norm Koger said:


> Flemish vs. endless loop is pretty much a matter of preference. There are small differences, but one really isn't better than the other. That said, new Bear Grizzlies do come by default with Flemish twist strings. I've never had a problem with a Bear string, and except for one old Grizzly I bought used, I've never had to replace a Bear string. Unlike many other bowyers / manufacturers, Bear ships their bows with decent strings.


Bear strings might be good now. A few years back, the strings that shipped with them were junk, and often the wrong length.

Glad to hear that they've stepped it up.

Like he said, preference.

The primary inherent value of a flemish twist string, in my opinion, is that it has a lot more room to be a work of art. On the flip side, it has a lot more potential to be really, truly, lousy.

Endless loop, unless it falls apart, it's kind of hard to screw up, and making a good string is a lot more direct.

I make both, I use both, on different bows, depending on the flavor I'm going for.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

equilibrium said:


> I do 3 bundles for flemish but, a lot of bigger shops use 2 bundles. Saves them material, so cost is lower. Each bundle is twisted clock-wise but, then is twisted counter clock-wise for the formation of the string.


I haven't noticed a difference in materials between 3 and two bundles. Strand count is strand count. I have noticed that 3 bundles take more time (smaller bundles mean more twisting), and if you're particular about how things lay up, requires more care to keep things in line. Unless somebody specifically wants a 3 bundle, I default to 2 bundle, just because it's less time to turn out a given level of quality, and most either wouldn't know the difference, or don't care.

If somebody wants a 3 bundle, cool. I'm not going to try to persuade them that it's not necessary. After all, their aesthetic preference is important, and at least half the reason of getting a custom string. The smaller bundles do turn out something that looks a little more refined, if you were to compare them side by side.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

In December, I received a new bear. It not only had the problem Jim had, after less than ten shots the serving started to unravel. I was soo pissed. The bear string was sub par. I was able to produce a better string for it, even though it was only my third string attempt. I felt that if I was getting a $500 bow, a decent string wasn't too much to ask. Every time I went to unstring it, I had to untwist the loop to get it clear of the string grooves since it would twist tight against the bow limb. We should expect better from bear. 

Not only does a "good" Flemish not behave that way, but it takes less equipment for me to make one. 2vs 3 bundle comes down to strand count in nuts and bolts choices. A two bundle can vary by multiples of 2, and 3 by multiples of 3. EX. for a 15 strand string, go 3 bundle; for 14 strand, go 2 bundle; for 12, pick the look and colors you like because either will work. I prefer three, but that's just me.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Matter of preference. Jim just really likes Flemish twists.


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## Kris_H_97 (Sep 2, 2011)

I got the same string Jim has in the video, guess I better keep a close eye on it's degradation if it decides to start crapping the bed.


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Interesting. I based my opinion on a sample of three, a Grizzly and two Super Grizzlies we bought in 2013-2014. All strings were just fine. The D97 strings on the Super Grizzlies were as good as any I've ever seen, and have held up very well to heavy use. We did replace the Dacron string on the Grizzly after it frayed a bit with heavy use, but that was more an indictment of Dacron as a string material than the quality of the string build. I've had very little luck with Dacron Flemish twist strings in general, and I've pretty much given up on them.


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## Cwilder (Jun 4, 2006)

Looks like the same string I got once from hunters niche and yes it was junk


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

A lot depends on the crowd you run with. Traditional archers predominately favor Flemish twist strings. Olympic archers think of Flemish twist as the rarely observed victory celebration of the Belgian national team.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I have both and only notice a slight difference with the Flemish. That is because I have it made with 12 strands of BCX-Y and then have the loops padded.
I like a bit more material in the loops as it seems to be quieter for me.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Why Flemish?

Because, thanks to Chad @ Champion Custom Bowstrings I am able to twist up an at least serviceable Flemish Twist string in far less time than it takes me to make an Endless Loop string. I admit though that although decent, my Flemish Twist aren't "top notch." They aren't always nice and round. Probably because I don't always get the back twisting part of the build right. So when I do have the time, I still seem to have better control over the finished string when I go Endless.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Kris - 

Think about it logically. You have 2 14 strand strings, one Flemish and one endless. The first one is made up of, well 14 strands, that's 28 ends, held together by twists and the latter is made up of one strand, with two ends held together by several tight wraps of serving. Which will have the greater tendency to elongate from the terminal ends? Which will require more twists? Twists are used to adjust string length, but again, think about it, the more twists, the more strand to strand abrasion and the more springiness in the string. That stretch on shock, is one reason why some people think that a flemish string may be quieter than an endless loop. The stretch absorbs energy. The only time you ever saw a Flemish splice string on an Olympic bow was in the 1980's, when Kevlar was being used. Kevlar was very low stretch for it's time, but had the durability of about 1,000 shots before it blew. Making the string a little springier, gave the string a little more life. 

More detail stuff. 
Flemish string have twice the number of strands in the loops than endless loop strings. That would be a problem, if any of the materials we're currently using weren't over-kill in the strength department. The loop serving can act as protection from wear from the limb nocks.

Flemish strings look like a rope, tending to be more traditional in appearance, while endless loop string have a more precision appearance and are typically the only strings used on compounds, which makes them inherently evil. 

Endless loop strings can usually be made to tighter tolerances. Not only length, but strand to strand tension. (It's easier to equalize the tension on one strand than on 12 or more.).

You can theoretically twist a Flemish string in your lap while watching TV, an endless loop string requires a fairly large and heavy jig. Both take about the same amount of time (20 minutes or so) to build. 

Now, how much of this really matters? That's where the rub is. Most people can't shoot anywhere near well enough to pick up on the difference. A more compelling reason is that if you take 100 home made Flemish strings and 100 homemade endless loop strings, the odds are the former will have a much higher failure rate (wrong length, slippage, etc), compared to the endless strings, which are pretty hard to screw up. With endless loop string the only failure points are setting the jig to the wrong legnth, and not knowing how to spin a serving (which will mess up a Flemish as well.) 

In fact, I've taught high school kids to build endless loop strings in less than 2 hours. 

Anyway, both can be serviceable, but given the above, I'll stick with endless loop strings on any bow I'm shooting seriously. 

Viper1 out.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

You're completely missing the point, flemish twist strings _look_ cool...:wink:

I really doubt it matters which one you use.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I come from the target side and always thought continuous loop strings looked cool. So it looks like it has come down to a question of fashion, and fashion is something that traditional shooters are more into than target shooters. Target shooting string discussions are fewer and more functional. We can't name our three favorite string makers. And we don't dress up like Fred Bear. To be fair, top end target shooters do love their Toxofil archery wear and colorful quick dry staff shooter shirts. Who wouldn't feel proud to compete in one of those fancy red Hoyt shirts.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys -

I agree, it's 99% a fashion statement and 1% functionality for most people. 
Still willing to bet that if it weren't for compounds, most people would still be using endless loop strings, just like we did before there was a "trad". 

Viper1 out.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> I agree, it's 99% a fashion statement and 1% functionality for most people.
> Still willing to bet that if it weren't for compounds, most people would still be using endless loop strings, just like we did before there was a "trad".
> ...


Maybe, I like to wear a pretty flemish with nice colours on my bows (along with sweet looking arrows)

But I make my own strings, I like making flemish, not so much the endless loops.

Do I notice a realtime difference? Not really. But I started out target shooting recurves and endless loops were the mainstay and I have nothing at all against them, in fact I will make a couple this week just to keep my hand in as it were and perhaps wear it on my current 3D shooter.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

My fashion sense is a bit on the low end of the scale.

I make my own endless loop strings.

All are one color.

I color code my materials. D97=brown; 8125G=white; 8190 70 inch bow (silver); 8190 72 inch bow (yellow). 

I color code my serving thread by size and material.

I can read the string spec's by looking at the color of my string and serving material. 

That does not make fashionable strings, or even colors that go together. But I would rather be able to look at a pile of strings and know what they are. 

Some folks may call my strings ugly, but I find them elegant in their functionality.

If I start making BCYX strings, I am going to have to come up with another color. Any suggestions?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bender said:


> Why Flemish?
> 
> Because, thanks to Chad @ Champion Custom Bowstrings I am able to twist up an at least serviceable Flemish Twist string in far less time than it takes me to make an Endless Loop string. I admit though that although decent, my Flemish Twist aren't "top notch." They aren't always nice and round. Probably because I don't always get the back twisting part of the build right. So when I do have the time, I still seem to have better control over the finished string when I go Endless.


We can talk shop at the next convention, but it's not so hard to get round, but it may take more time to do it consistently than you like. 

Chad, at least in the DVD I saw, does his back twists in a manner that works great if you've got superbly consistent motor skills making strings, because you've made thousands of them.He counts how many times his fingers do a spin, and relies on his fingers spinning with consistent rotation. 

I don't, in part because I don't have his skill, but also because I like doing multi-color bundles, and want the colors to lay up consistently through the entire length of the string between the splices. As such, the strands between the splices need to be just as straight as they would be if you'd get them pulling them off a jig for an endless loop string. 

In order to do this, I count backtwist rotation on each bundle _exactly_, and then after it's spun up, separate each color for each bundle for the intended color layout at the center of the string with small knitting needles, run two independent sets back in both direction, and check the bundle twists at the splices for symmetry. If the length of the twisted splices are equal for each side, great. If not, I adjust bundle rotation as necessary. If the bundle tension is not exactly the same as well, this is because the twisting rate or geometry veered off somewhere in the splice. I try to check and avoid that before hand, but if necessary, you can actually use the knitting needs to keep the rotation, and unspin the twist a little at the splice for a few inches, and because the bundles are kept in the same twist, nothing slips, and it will even everything out as you let it return to the twist rate of the original splice.

Once you're there, simply remove all the excess wax of each color section with some spare string material or serving material, whatever, then slide the knitting needles down toward center as you rotate the loops on the stretching jig. All Colors then set in place. Once you've got both sets of needles back to center, remove them, and begin the stretch and burnish/gleaning.

Your string will be as round as you want it.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Kris -
> 
> Think about it logically. You have 2 14 strand strings, one Flemish and one endless. The first one is made up of, well 14 strands, that's 28 ends, held together by twists and the latter is made up of one strand, with two ends held together by several tight wraps of serving. Which will have the greater tendency to elongate from the terminal ends? Which will require more twists? Twists are used to adjust string length, but again, think about it, the more twists, the more strand to strand abrasion and the more springiness in the string. That stretch on shock, is one reason why some people think that a flemish string may be quieter than an endless loop. The stretch absorbs energy. The only time you ever saw a Flemish splice string on an Olympic bow was in the 1980's, when Kevlar was being used. Kevlar was very low stretch for it's time, but had the durability of about 1,000 shots before it blew. Making the string a little springier, gave the string a little more life.
> Viper1 out.


While I agree that an endless loop is theoretically, technically superior, from a pure efficiency standpoint, and easier to make well, and consistently, I think that proponents of its superiority overstate the significance. I've snapped Flemish twist strings with as little as 1/2 rotation per inch. If the splice is made well, it's not going to slip. If it's crappy, sure it could.

I've clocked a variety of strings, and sent a bunch to Ray, who did the same, and we both found that any speed difference, given good construction with both, is minor, like 2-3 fps, maybe.

Actually, the fastest string he tested, for him, was a Rick Barbee Flemish twist. I'd really like to know what he does to his string in his 'conditioning' process. He also supposedly makes them 'skinny', which for other reasons, is something I'm not interested in pursuing for reasons other than speed. But, it does go to show you the relative importance of one aspect among the sum of the integration of many variables.

I think that a lot of the problem in performance with Flemish twist strings available, are that many of them require so much twisting up, to either maintain the splice, because the splice is sloppy, or because the maker didn't want to be careful about constructing it to actual length, or because they aren't adequately stretched to settle fibers into the wax, and as such, creep a LOT initially, that the string becomes spongy. If I have to twist a string up more than 1 twist per inch to get the right length, I start over. My preferred twist rate for delivery is 1/2 to 1 twist per inch. If it settles a _little_ over time and requires a few more twists, fine. But, twisting a whole lot more, it simply bugs me for aesthetic reasons. It just feels compromised.

To be fair, I may have unreasonable standards


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Barney -

I said nothing about performance, as in speed. A Skinny Flemish string is going to blow the doors off a more heavily made endless loop any day of the week. The real difference has to do with consistency and I don't believe that will ever be seen at close distances and 6" groups. Differences in strand to strand tension and even slight elongation due to slippage start showing when you're shooting at distance all day long. You might not know why at first, but when your groups start shifting and you have to compensate, something is up. 

For example, a 14 strand Flemish with two looser strands, means you're shooting a 12 strand string on shock, but carrying the weight of a 14. Sure a really good string maker should be able to keep everything within spec on a flemish, but I can run down to may basement, build an endless loop string in about 20 minutes with almost no thought. 

Like I said, most people will never realize the difference, and it does come down to more of a fashion statement more than anything else. But when you think about all the non-sense that trad types worry about that wind up making zero difference in their shooting, this is one where I think there's a clear, even if theoretical advantage, why not use it. And it's still the same reason, they're used on compounds and can't be "trad" ... 

And like I said, make 100 strings, and I really think the "failure" rate will be higher than with and endless loop.

Viper1 out.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Barney -
> 
> I said nothing about performance, as in speed. A Skinny Flemish string is going to blow the doors off a more heavily made endless loop any day of the week. The real difference has to do with consistency and I don't believe that will ever be seen at close distances and 6" groups. Differences in strand to strand tension and even slight elongation due to slippage start showing when you're shooting at distance all day long. You might not know why at first, but when your groups start shifting and you have to compensate, something is up.


Gotcha. Makes much sense. I can see why even a little slippage in a splice could be far worse than a little creep, as it would not only drop brace, but shift the nocking point. I would only point out again that if the string is made correctly, it won't slip. But, to concede, that is an if, and depending who makes the string, possibly a big if. If you have an endless loop string, this can't physically happen.



> For example, a 14 strand Flemish with two looser strands, means you're shooting a 12 strand string on shock, but carrying the weight of a 14. Sure a really good string maker should be able to keep everything within spec on a flemish, but I can run down to may basement, build an endless loop string in about 20 minutes with almost no thought.


I wish I could turn them out that quickly .


> Like I said, most people will never realize the difference, and it does come down to more of a fashion statement more than anything else. But when you think about all the non-sense that trad types worry about that wind up making zero difference in their shooting, this is one where I think there's a clear, even if theoretical advantage, why not use it. And it's still the same reason, they're used on compounds and can't be "trad" ...


I guess I see no problem with people having fashion statements, or paying more to do it, so long as they aren't actually getting something actually worse.



> And like I said, make 100 strings, and I really think the "failure" rate will be higher than with and endless loop.


Of the last 100 strings I've made (and all of them, save for one of the first), I've had or heard of no failures not related to actually getting cut, but I can only speak for myself.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I think that continuous loop strings are more accommodating of construction goofs. I have come up with a process where I create the continuous loop, completely back served, prior to making the end loops. I can make a mistake serving the end loops and it does not impact the performance of the string, as long as I adequately cover the strands so that they do not wear. You can also take my strings apart to fix the either end loop if necessary. I don't think that Flemish strings are as forgiving. This is important for folks that make strings for personal use, or in limited quantities. We don't make 100's of strings like folks that do it for a living, but we still expect our strings to perform. I am not sure that the person making only a small number of Flemish strings a year can be certain of reaching an adequate competency level to achieve that goal. I covered up a lot of flaws in my strings as I matured my process. The downside is that continuous loop jigs are expensive and bulky compared to Flemish. You mitigate the cost by making your own.


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