# Are the new USA Archery coaching level badge designs clever or insulting?



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I just noticed these new USA Archery instructor/coach level badges at USA Archery. The levels 1-5 are given a corresponding graphic visually indicating the worth and placement of the level based on the standard 5 color English Target (as the French call it) from the outside in, and a number of arrows. So, level 1 is white, with one arrow. Level 2 is black with two arrows. Level 5 gets the gold, and 5 arrows.









At first glance I found the analogy insulting, implying that only L5s can actually hit the gold, when, in fact, coaching certs currently have almost nothing to do with an archers shooting ability. I know of plenty of lower level coaches, such as L2s, who are dead shots - five-time Olympian Khatuna Lorig comes to mind. She was an L2 when she gave instruction to Jennifer Lawrence. Coaching certs are not handed out based on national rankings or shooting ability.

On the other hand, the public doesn't know which way the numbering system goes or what the highest/lowest number is. Is a bigger number better or worse? Is Level 1 the top level? Level 10 :dontknow: The new badges make it clear that the lower numbers are are less desirable, and that the pinnacle of the USAA System is the "Gold Level" L5.

So, I'm kind of torn. As an info graphic, the badges are pretty well executed and informative to the public about the relative order and number of USAA coaching levels, better than the terms "community coach" and "regional coach" did. But it is also visually misleading, suggesting that lower level coaches can't shoot for crap, which is not necessarily true. (The design also looses points for always writing "instructor" or "nts coach" in the white ring - which is visually jarring and inconsistent with the ring color = coaching level analogy, but that is a quibble. )


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Why worry so much about it There are people without any "credentials" I'd send my son to for help if he has issues and there are level Vs I wouldn't let any of my kids anywhere near.. There are level IVs who have never put a kid on a national team or a Gold Olympian award and there are people with no "formal training" who have turned out dozens of top shooters.


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## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

I think you are way overthinking it.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Doesn't bother me...I really don't care about the badges--







I understand what you're saying especially about the general public. At first I thought the certification meant something until I had enough dealings with the general public. I found there are those that the paper you hang on the wall means something, those that want you to place/score well and those those that are interested in your knowledge.

All I care to deal with are those that want to learn something and grow as a shooter. Those others that need a piece of paper to satisfy their needs....I send to limbwalker---lol.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

I'd say anyone who has put the necessary work and time to attain levels 4 and 5 has earned a 99 cent gold pin. I think the idea is clever and well executed.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Aha hahahah a hahahahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Badges, we don't need no stinking badges!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)




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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

"...clever or insulting?"

Are we talking about the badges or the OP?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Seattlepop said:


> "...clever or insulting?"
> 
> Are we talking about the badges or the OP?


I didn't say anything.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

FITA 1440 pins are the same. Doesn't mean an 1100 shooter with a black pin can't hit gold.

Not an issue. 

I'd have a hard time sending someone to any coach who would actually wear this pin to "prove" their credentials, anyways.


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## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

Way over thinking it. I wouldn't have even noticed the target color scheme until it was mentioned. I'm quite certain the designer wasn't implying that coaches under level 5 can't hit the gold


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Neither, they are the color of the target rings and that's it.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Stash said:


> FITA 1440 pins are the same. Doesn't mean an 1100 shooter with a black pin can't hit gold.
> 
> Not an issue.
> 
> I'd have a hard time sending someone to any coach who would actually wear this pin to "prove" their credentials, anyways.




Close the thread-all that was needed to be said about this was contained in the above sentence


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ShooterPhill said:


> I think you are way overthinking it.


Warbow, overthinking it? :zip:



> I'd have a hard time sending someone to any coach who would actually wear this pin to "prove" their credentials, anyways.


:darkbeer:

I think anyone who has been around USArchery, and even the NAA coaching cert. program before it, knows what some of those pieces of paper are worth. As I've said for years, until the certification program includes merit-based qualifications, it's nothing more than a paper exercise.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Warbow said:


> At first glance I found the analogy insulting, implying that only L5s can actually hit the gold, when, in fact, coaching certs currently have almost nothing to do with an archers shooting ability. I know of plenty of lower level coaches, such as L2s, who are dead shots - five-time Olympian Khatuna Lorig comes to mind. She was an L2 when she gave instruction to Jennifer Lawrence. Coaching certs are not handed out based on national rankings or shooting ability.


I think the graphics look cute and well thought out! I feel like most people probably wouldn't take offense to this. :wink:


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I think they look great. It's not a 'shooting' badge, it's a 'coaching' badge - a ladder graphic of coaching level attainment, as defined/certified by USA Archery. There's no logic or insinuation bridge that goes from this badge to "you shoot like cr*p"


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> I think they look great. It's a 'coaching' badge, not a 'shooting' badge. There's no logic bridge that goes from this badge to "you shoot like cr*p"


I may have earned a blue badge at the trials. A time or two. LOL.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

lksseven said:


> I think they look great. It's not a 'shooting' badge, it's a 'coaching' badge - a ladder graphic of coaching level attainment, as defined/certified by USA Archery. There's no logic or insinuation bridge that goes from this badge to "you shoot like cr*p"


Hmm I'm not sure why there are official coaching levels/badges anyways. It's so silly! I don't think it matters if someone is certified at all. If they can coach, they can coach.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

iArch said:


> Hmm I'm not sure why there are official coaching levels/badges anyways. It's so silly! I don't think it matters if someone is certified at all. If they can coach, they can coach.


It's akin to asking why we need degrees to teach k-12 schooling. Many people can teach kids, but some don't have the qualifications to be recognized to do so. Having these certs gives you a basis in beginner form and NTS form. And for those looking out of the blue for a coach, or are unfamiliar with local coach's (non certified), this can give a list or basis to start from. Also with safesport, makes people make informed decisions for situations that may occur during/after class. You may find it common sense, but there are a heck of a lot of people who could bring down a program very easily putting themselves in a bad situation.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

iArch said:


> Hmm I'm not sure why there are official coaching levels/badges anyways. It's so silly! I don't think it matters if someone is certified at all. If they can coach, they can coach.


I view the certification as an evil necessity in this sport. You want insurance, meet the minimum requirement. It's not a sign you can coach, it's a sign you are willing to be trained.

I view a successful coach as in how their kids act and perform. The certs just show me that they are willing to learn.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Totally forgot the insurance part for those in a JOAD club that don't connect to a shop.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The certs just show me that they are willing to learn *and pay*.


fify Steve.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

rharper said:


> Totally forgot the insurance part for those in a JOAD club that don't connect to a shop.




USOC insurance lawyers now run most of the sports in the USA now


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> fify Steve.


True. But the pay part is spent in both time and money. More time than money for some.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> USOC insurance lawyers now run most of the sports in the USA now


Truth to tell, I blame USA Swimming for 90 percent of our Safesport and lawsuit issues with NGB's in general.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Beastmaster said:


> I view the certification as an evil necessity in this sport. You want insurance, meet the minimum requirement. It's not a sign you can coach, it's a sign you are willing to be trained.
> 
> I view a successful coach as in how their kids act and perform. The certs just show me that they are willing to learn.


Oh I see! Good way of looking at it


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> True. But the pay part is spent in both time and money. More time than money for some.


If time truly does = money, then I need a refund.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Fury90flier said:


> Doesn't bother me...I really don't care about the badges--
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU [Treasure of the Sierra Madre]


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Truth to tell, I blame USA Swimming for 90 percent of our Safesport and lawsuit issues with NGB's in general.


I am the chair of what is the equivalent of the board of justice for USA for another NGB. Swimming and Gymnastics both had problems. Sports where you have younger athletes dependent on coaches deciding who makes the team (like relays etc) are sports where abuse is more likely. Funny, you almost never hear about coaches abusing SHOOTING sport athletes!.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> I am the chair of what is the equivalent of the board of justice for USA for another NGB. Swimming and Gymnastics both had problems. Sports where you have younger athletes dependent on coaches deciding who makes the team (like relays etc) are sports where abuse is more likely. Funny, you almost never hear about coaches abusing SHOOTING sport athletes!.


Sounds like an ironic counterpoint to the reduced levels of team comradery found in archery compared to more team oriented sports. :dontknow:


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## OHUArchCoach (Feb 26, 2015)

Well said sir, very well said


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Don't like the badges insulting and irrelevant will not wear one unless required by the owner of the team I teach for.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

looks like a cool pin for my quiver. 

though it makes it look like all coaches should attain level 5 and stopping at a low level is similar to shooting a low score on the achievement pins. 

I think the badges should be all the same target colors, and only the arrows be different. That would give more weight to all levels. 

I mean lets face it, of the people who want to be a level 5 coach, how many will USAA allow to make that grade ??

not many. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Shouldn't the point of being a great coach to produce great archers? I guess I'm not sure why a coach would wear a pin like this. To bring attention to themselves? When will we figure out that it's not about the coaches any more than it's about the training programs. It's about the archers folks. Any coach worth their salt will be the first to tell you this, and any coach that says otherwise is nobody I'd have working with me or my child.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> looks like a cool pin for my quiver.
> 
> though it makes it look like all coaches should attain level 5 and stopping at a low level is similar to shooting a low score on the achievement pins.
> 
> ...


Your last statement is one that I'm trying to go through right now. As a Level 4 coach, trying to get my L5 is difficult from some of the areas. Here's the requirements with commentary....

Member of USA Archery* (done)
*NFAA/ASA Partner Membership is authorized. (Don't have to worry about this)
USA Archery Background Screening (already part of L4)
SafeSport Training (already part of L4)
Must successfully complete the Human Kinetics Coach Education - Coaching Principles Course (easy to do)
Must successfully complete the Mental Management 101 and 102 Courses (easy to do)
Must pass an interview with National Head Coach where your NTS knowledge will be evaluated (easy to schedule, hard to pass)
Must participate in and provide practical supervision in NTS through the Coach Observer Program (can do if you are willing to travel to the CVOTC)
Serve as a Coach twice for the Junior Dream Team, Junior Olympic Archery Development, Para or Resident Athlete programs (done this already due to Arizona hosting JOAD camps all the time)
Have personally coached there or more archers to one or more of the following:
JOAD National podium place, 
Collegiate National podium place, 
Cadet USAT top-10 ranking, 
Jr. USAT top-10 ranking, 
Sr. USAT top-10 ranking or 
Olympic, World or International team member (takes time but is possible to do)
Travel as Coach and/or Team Leader to two or more international events as a Level 5-NTS candidate (impossible to get into Pool B to even be able to travel)

Of all these things, the very last part is the absolute hardest to achieve. International Travel Staff is so hard to break into that it's harder to achieve this than getting kids into a podium placement or top 10 USAT ranking.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Shouldn't the point of being a great coach to produce great archers? I guess I'm not sure why a coach would wear a pin like this. To bring attention to themselves? When will we figure out that it's not about the coaches any more than it's about the training programs. It's about the archers folks. Any coach worth their salt will be the first to tell you this, and any coach that says otherwise is nobody I'd have working with me or my child.


oddly, as a coach, the better my JOAD kids do, the more i move to the shadows. They are the ones accomplishing their goals. I didn't do it.

Chris


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Shouldn't the point of being a great coach to produce great archers? I guess I'm not sure why a coach would wear a pin like this. To bring attention to themselves? When will we figure out that it's not about the coaches any more than it's about the training programs. It's about the archers folks. Any coach worth their salt will be the first to tell you this, and any coach that says otherwise is nobody I'd have working with me or my child.


I won't wear a thing like this. Actually, the only times I identify as a Level 4 Coach is in email or forum signatures, and that's about it. 

Again - it's my view that the kids and how they act and perform are a coach's legacy, not their title.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Beastmaster said:


> Your last statement is one that I'm trying to go through right now. As a Level 4 coach, trying to get my L5 is difficult from some of the areas.


I was placing more emphasis on the " of the ones who WANT" to be a Level 5 coach. I will admit the requirements for Level 5 are there to limit the number of the very top level coaches to a handful directly under the thumb of the head coach. And it is hard to attain that level unless they want you to be a level 5 coach. That is where the International coaching part comes in i am sure. 

I was thinking along the lines that plenty of great coaches have no desire to attain anything past level 2. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Again - it's my view that the kids and how they act and perform are a coach's legacy, not their title.


Yup.

And thanks Steve for posting that list of requirements. I'm much closer to a L5 cert. than I ever realized.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Yup.
> 
> And thanks Steve for posting that list of requirements. I'm much closer to a L5 cert. than I ever realized.


Except for the money YOU have to shell out to meet all the requirements. The term "indentured servant" comes to mind.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Yup.
> 
> And thanks Steve for posting that list of requirements. I'm much closer to a L5 cert. than I ever realized.


No problem! I track my own progress, but for the difficulty of the blasted requirements changing over time, I'd be closer or further away, depending on which requirement list is used at any given time.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

TomB said:


> Except for the money YOU have to shell out to meet all the requirements. The term "indentured servant" comes to mind.


Tom, the money component is something we all have to go through.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Tom, the money component is something we all have to go through.


But is the juice worth the squeeze? Between the burned vacation time, out of pocket travel expenses, etc. what is the incremental benefit over say a level 3?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TomB said:


> But is the juice worth the squeeze? Between the burned vacation time, out of pocket travel expenses, etc. what is the incremental benefit over say a level 3?


Juice isn't worth the squeeze to me. I could have easily been a L5 by now. I was "technically" one of the first L4's christened by Lee himself, back in the "Regional High Performance" days. Hell, I helped him teach that class in CS and was on track to be his asst. coach at the Beijing games. Oh well... Darn J.O.B. and family. LOL.

But like a lot of folks who work for a living and lead busy lives outside of archery, there just isn't much point in pursuing any cert. beyond a L3. And I get the impression that certain folks within the organization are just fine with that.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

IMHO, the leap from L3 to L4 is worth it if you are intending to really train recurve archers to a decent potential. 

The leap from L4 to L5? Not worth it for 99 percent of the coaches out there. You're trained identically, you have similar opportunity for growth, and nothing is preventing you from doing anything except training L4 coaches. 

Truth to tell, the politics is what is killing me. 

In looking at the list, a lot of it is achievable. Doing the classes, doing camps- all possible with plenty of opportunity to do so. 

Getting kids on the podium or USAT top 10? Also possible. It shows your prowess as a coach, regardless of which system you teach. 

The part that is currently impossible is getting onto the International Travel Staff to gain your team lead or coach experience. 

The current rules for getting onto ITS as a team leader is either be a Level 4 or be a Judge and apply. Getting onto ITS as a coach is be a Level 4 and apply. 

You have Pool B and Pool A coaches. Pool A are the guys going to the Olympics. Pool B are the rest of the tournaments (in a simple way of explaining it). The idea is to give the potential L5 coach some international experience. 

I've been applying for Pool B for a while. I've never gotten in. 

Now, Steven Cornell did give me an idea to get around that. Team lead or coach a self funded team. I'm exploring that. 

But, deep down, other than the international experience, will a L5 really get me to coach better? Or generate better kids in archery and life? Not really. 

Also, am I in a rush to get my L5? Not really. I have a LOT to learn before I even try, excluding the classes. It's really the life experiences that define how well you coach. I need more to be able to pass it on. But if I can't get some of the needed experience one way, I will abandon a system to get it another way.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There is a lot of assumptions in this thread. A lot of brag.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> will a L5 really get me to coach better? Or generate better kids in archery and life? Not really.


Exactly. It's unfortunate that to the untrained observer, the higher levels appear to mean a more qualified coach when in fact, they really mean a more qualified team manager. Completely different jobs requiring a completely different set of skills IMO.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Exactly. It's unfortunate that to the untrained observer, the higher levels appear to mean a more qualified coach when in fact, they really mean a more qualified team manager. Completely different jobs requiring a completely different set of skills IMO.


Which brings it around to my OP and the badge designs, which imply that the coaching levels are a linear progression of competence, rather than different things. 

I'm not claiming the badges designs are a big deal, though. 

Maybe the coaching levels should stop at L4, and you can hang special qualifiers from it if you pass political muster of the powers that be? Kind of like an Army marksmanship badge :dontknow:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Lol.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

ok, I'm a geek I guess. 
I like the badges and would wear it.

Are they making pins of these to be purchased?

also, is the deadline for the mental management 101 course to be completed by Jan. 2016 or is that when they want us to start to take it?
I must have missed that memo.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

XForce Girl said:


> ok, I'm a geek I guess.
> I like the badges and would wear it.
> 
> Are they making pins of these to be purchased?
> ...


The Mental Management courses have been on the Level 5 required list for a while. There is a deadline on once you enroll, you have to finish it. Usually, it's one year.


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