# Change in WA /USA Archery time limits



## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Yes, this was voted on in Congress and approved by the Executive Board.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Yes, this was voted on in Congress and approved by the Executive Board.


when does it go into effect? thanks


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Jan 15, 2022, AFAIK


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Will this affect Indoor Nationals which start on Jan 14?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Interesting. 3 min for 6 arrows. Hope it's not a gusty day! 

Gonna see some interesting "last shots" this upcoming outdoor season, I think!

Thinking about the effect this could have on records... An archer that had an extra minute per end has an advantage over one who has a minute less, over the course of a ranking round.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

That will save up to 24 minutes on the day. International target archery’s biggest problem solved. 👍


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## Fly2High (Feb 25, 2019)

Stash said:


> That will save up to 24 minutes on the day. International target archery’s biggest problem solved. 👍


Would that also mean they could add up to 8 more rounds in those 24 mins?

Maybe they are hoping more people will want to compete.

Either that or they want to reduce the number at the line for each group, maybe spread them out more reducing the number of targets and will need more rounds


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Negligible positive effect. Perhaps the bigger effect may be losing shooters to a 3 minute limit. Or how about 90 seconds to shoot your 3 arrows. Gotta tell you THAT will put off many.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Actual shooting time per round: 12 ends X 2 lines X 3 minutes = 72 minutes.

Actual time between ends for people to spot their last arrows, put the bows down, talk to their coaches, walk towards the targets, walk back to get their score card which they left on their chair, walk back to the targets again, find their pencils, write on the wrong scorecards, get a judge to come over and correct the scorecards, mark the arrow holes, pull the arrows, ask someone tor an arrow puller to get that tough one out, spin them to check the nocks, fiddle with straightening their spinwing vanes, have a chat with their friends 3 targets over, saunter back to the shooting line, complain about that one group (of kids, usually) still back at the targets that can’t seem to be able to add: 12 ends X 16 minutes = 192 minutes.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

It should be noted that Para time limits haven't changed they still run under the 2/4min time. As a side note I really don't see much of an issue with 3min for 6 arrows, even with the high winds at Yankton the majority of compounds I saw still left over a minute on the clock. I don't know if Vegas will follow suit being the last leg of indoor series


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

FiFi said:


> It should be noted that Para time limits haven't changed they still run under the 2/4min time. As a side note I really don't see much of an issue with 3min for 6 arrows, even with the high winds at Yankton the majority of compounds I saw still left over a minute on the clock. I don't know if Vegas will follow suit being the last leg of indoor series











World Archery Rule Change Reduces Shooting Time for Individual Rounds


This morning, World Archery announced a bylaw change that reduces the shooting time in qualification and individual Olympic, compound and indoor rounds from 40 seconds per arrow to just 30 seconds.




www.usarchery.org





I'm sure people smarter than I am will know how to support a line of archers including both para and able-bodied archers.



Stash said:


> ...complain about that one group (of kids, usually) still back at the targets that can’t seem to be able to add.


There should be an arithmetic quiz as a requirement for JOAD/AAP pins...


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

tkaap said:


> World Archery Rule Change Reduces Shooting Time for Individual Rounds
> 
> 
> This morning, World Archery announced a bylaw change that reduces the shooting time in qualification and individual Olympic, compound and indoor rounds from 40 seconds per arrow to just 30 seconds.
> ...



I didn't say it was an issue, but running both at the same time would defeat the purpose of the rule change so I suspect they will just shoot at different times


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tkaap said:


> There should be an arithmetic quiz as a requirement for JOAD/AAP pins...


It's the high school and college-aged kids who have to use their phones as a calculator just to total 6-arrow end scores these days. LOL


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## pengu (Jul 28, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> It's the high school and college-aged kids who have to use their phones as a calculator just to total 6-arrow end scores these days. LOL


college student here and guilty as charged...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

pengu said:


> college student here and guilty as charged...


Hey at least you're honest about it! LOL


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

So, either you'll have to wait 30sec to a min for me to finish my end, or despite USAA/WA statements to "embrace and support para archery" I'll no longer be able to shoot at the same time or the same venues as my able-bodied cohorts... Really hoovers arse when I [or any other para] is the only "special case" to show up to an event... Someone really thought this through. 

The silver lining of this dark cloud... If I learn to get three shots off in 40secs or six in maybe 1:20, I won't need a spotter anymore, I'll just get one of you who had to finish early and have nothing better to do than stand there spot my arrows  

Now they'll have to add a fifth signal to the timing clocks... two beeps to prepare, one to start firing, three to stop firing, four}+ for the "oh crap stop shooting now" panic stop, and something else for the paras. 

If anyone feels they want those extra 30sec/1min as part of their total shot timing and recovery between ends, I'll volunteer to take all my last shots with 2sec left on the clock...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> If anyone feels they want those extra 30sec/1min as part of their total shot timing and recovery between ends, I'll volunteer to take all my last shots with 2sec left on the clock...


No, don’t do that. It’ll take too long for everybody to find your arrows in the grass or forest. (Smilie).


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Stash said:


> No, don’t do that. It’ll take too long for everybody to find your arrows in the grass or forest. (Smilie).



Yes, but the last second shots won't change how many arrows I send into the great unknown, and I know there are a few archers on my lines that are over bowed and would appreciate that added time as well... We get shooters during our indoor leagues that complain about 5-spot games and having to shoot 60 arrows


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

FiFi said:


> It should be noted that Para time limits haven't changed they still run under the 2/4min time. As a side note I really don't see much of an issue with 3min for 6 arrows, even with the high winds at Yankton the majority of compounds I saw still left over a minute on the clock. I don't know if Vegas will follow suit being the last leg of indoor series


There will NOT be any change to the Vegas timing format.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

WA is catering to Australia? Top athletes will have no trouble making the new rule work. It’s down the line where issues arise and the limit becomes problematic.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm sure we can make it work. I was one of the primary "harumph" critics of the 20 changing to 10 seconds from 2 beeps to one beep/shoot, but that works fine now. (Easier for judges, actually - fewer can raise their bow prematurely prior to the one beep. And it save 3 minutes 20 seconds over an indoor round! Wow.) 
We may have some issues adjusting timing equipment, but it can work. It may effect me when I have to take down and reset and will have to hurry to get off the shot (not as easy as when I was younger). 
As usual, civilians and even judges had little/no notice or input. There should be some notice of what's being considered and an opportunity to comment. 
Keeping the para timing the same as current rules will be "interesting" - not in favor of separate lines or paras feeling folks looks at them, tapping their feet while waiting for them to finish. That's not cool. 
My current understanding is that in official Para events, the old timing will remain. If a para shoots in an open tournament, they will shoot with the new 30 rule along with the other shooters. 
I understand that the 30 seconds goes live January 15. The earliest USA Indoor Nationals start the 14th-16th, which I assume will be under the new rule.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

archeryal said:


> I'm sure we can make it work. I was one of the primary "harumph" critics of the 20 changing to 10 seconds from 2 beeps to one beep/shoot, but that works fine now. (Easier for judges, actually - fewer can raise their bow prematurely prior to the one beep. And it save 3 minutes 20 seconds over an indoor round! Wow.)
> We may have some issues adjusting timing equipment, but it can work. It may effect me when I have to take down and reset and will have to hurry to get off the shot (not as easy as when I was younger).
> As usual, civilians and even judges had little/no notice or input. There should be some notice of what's being considered and an opportunity to comment.
> Keeping the para timing the same as current rules will be "interesting" - not in favor of separate lines or paras feeling folks looks at them, tapping their feet while waiting for them to finish. That's not cool.
> ...


I don't see this as a big issue indoors. Outdoors, yes, it will affect scoring on ranking rounds for many people. But I guess so long as everyone is dealing with the same thing...


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

I shot most of my competitive life in Scotland and we were lucky if we had 3 calm-ish weekends a year. To my mind this change can only be detrimental for scores. No more “just wait for the gust to die down”, you‘re just going to have to get it done. So being able to get the shot off between gusts ceases to be a useful skill, and all of the onus is now on being able to judge aiming off. Hmmm.

I really struggle to see how that is a good idea. Seems like it has benefit for the administrators and not many others but I guess if it got voted in it got voted in  But hey I am a dinosaur, we shot 288 competitive arrows in a 2 day weekend sandwitched between two 8 hour car trips.

Presumably para archers shooting at open events will have to get it done in the 3 minutes. I hope that doesn’t throw up any barriers for archers who have to do a bit more to get an arrow shot.

The constant need to ”speed things up” just seems unnecessary. A 3 set tennis match can run to nearly 3 hours - even with the new time rule between points. I’d rather see the archer shoot their best shot - get their best scores etc. That is good for the sport and builds participation.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Problem with the "paras shooting open events:" is that, at least in my limited experience, I've never entered a USAA/WA event where I had to shoot open class, I've always been afforded para rules like different target sizes and distances, except for once and that was last year's WA Indoor Virtual series... Maybe it happens, but in my experience, and my understanding, any USAA/WA sanctioned event where I request para format I am allowed it... 

Posed the question to USArchery, hopefully I catch a break in their "wonderful" communications turnaround and actually hear something back.


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting for an answer from the US Archery!


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I have no problem with the shorter shooting time (my average 3-arrow end is less than a minute). I just don't see what the advantage is. And while I fully support giving para-archers the extra time, I also don't understand how this is supposed to work in practice.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I have no problem with the shorter shooting time (my average 3-arrow end is less than a minute). I just don't see what the advantage is. And while I fully support giving para-archers the extra time, I also don't understand how this is supposed to work in practice.


Do you really think someone thought this through in that manner before they decided? I don't.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Do you really think someone thought this through in that manner before they decided? I don't.


I think there was a "throw it all at the wall and see what sticks" approach to shortening event times, and this was the only one that didn't have vocal opposition.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

There was an "opinion poll" taken at the world congress, but I missed what the general assembly voted. I think this was perhaps the only "shorten the events" proposal in which the executive board didn't need the blessings of the general assembly, and in listening to Tom's comments before the vote I would say the executive board had made their minds up before it was even presented for a vote. 

Hilarious was Tom's rationale that this was no different than paras getting additional space on the line, or different target sizes, or shooting distances. 

Devil's advocate, I think the primary reasoning was geared towards bigger WA World Cup events, where paras typically don't shoot within para classes anyway, and all the "grass roots" events below that can just suck it up; IMO it's a focus on the very top echelon of the sport without regards to the membership that supports the organization. 

And no, won't hold my breath on an answer from USArchery, but have also reached out through other VI forums to see if any other NGBs have a plan, or at least a clue.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

This passed with a simple majority as a temperature check


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Deleted because it was a distraction to the conversation.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> USArchery has done this for decades. The top echelon (Generally USAT class) events drive everything and everyone else can just suck it. The last USArchery annual meeting I sat in, probably 2014 or so, Denise spent about 3/4 of the meeting talking about changes to the USAT series, formats, etc. Finally, after being patient for over an hour, I stood up and said "when are we going to talk about the other 90% of the membership?" Things got real quiet but there was some faint chuckling in the back.
> 
> Fact is, it's "elites" or former "elites" that run the organization and they don't have much of an amateur or recreational lens with which to view the organization. It's just not how they think. And so that's what we get.
> 
> ...



And unfortunately, I have the "not really in the know, just heard it somewhere and accepted it as fact" feeling it's only going to get worse; just hearsay on successes and fund/priority allocations in other programs...


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

You’re venting at the wrong people here John. USA Archery is not driving this rule change. If you read the announcement, they are looking for additional guidance.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> You’re venting at the wrong people here John. USA Archery is not driving this rule change. If you read the announcement, they are looking for additional guidance.


I'm not venting at anyone nor do I expect or care if anything changes. Don't misunderstand me. I'm just telling folks how it is and how it's been. I ran out of fks to give about how USArchery is run years ago. 

And yes, I know USArchery isn't driving this rule change. That's not what I was responding to.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

My bad. I thought the thread was about the time change.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> My bad. I thought the thread was about the time change.


sigh. It is. But it's also an internet discussion forum and you've participated in them long enough to know that topics drift and wander. I was responding to TheBlindArcher's comments and I'm certain you know that.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Got a response from USArchery- From what I was told USAA isn't in favor of the change and are submitting a by-law change request to go back to the timing as it was before for the executive board's consideration, and recognize the potential issue involved with paras and unparas sharing the line in competition. 

It seems like the change was part of a larger plan to shorten WA events [as stated above], and I thought I heard somewhere that with all the proposed changes [target size and scoring matrix to reduce shoot offs, going from 72 arrows to sixty outdoors, the timing thing] over all the categories would reduce event times by a day... But since the time change was the only change that survived, the arrow count thing was voted down and can't be brought up again for four years, and I forgot whether the scoring changes and target size proposals were voted on or withdrawn [so at least two years before they come up again], maybe [but doubtful] the executive board will come up with a more viable solution. 

To be clear, so far I've only competed with my compound and personally have no problem shooting the shorter time table; I think I can do it with my recurve, just haven't taken the opportunity to put it to the test, so the shorter time in itself for me isn't an issue, but for some paras I think it will be, and the greater concern [for me anyway] is the paras getting to shoot with everyone else... If the change effected everyone the same, I probably would have said "that sucks" and moved on, it's the short sightedness of the potential problems without an alternative plan that ruffles my feathers, and this is where I can vent with an audience that at least gets that it may be an issue.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Do you really think someone thought this through in that manner before they decided? I don't.


I think they did-they want to be able to trumpet that NEW WORLD RECORDS Have been shot-like the 600/600 compound indoor score that will stand forever-unless they change the rules-and now they can scream that WE HAVE A NEW WORLD RECORD. I think that is the main motivation for it


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Jim C said:


> I think they did-they want to be able to trumpet that NEW WORLD RECORDS Have been shot-like the 600/600 compound indoor score that will stand forever-unless they change the rules-and now they can scream that WE HAVE A NEW WORLD RECORD. I think that is the main motivation for it


I’m not sure what you’re responding to, but you should be aware that the time change would NOT have any impact on current World Records, just as other major and minor changes (Grand FITA, 10-seconds to the line, 6-ring 80cm faces, AB-CD-CD-AB, etc.) did not reset the records. 

If anything asked for new records, it was the Grand FITA, after all. But that didn’t happen, and this won’t change it either. I have that assurance from the highest levels at WA, and you can hear it for yourself straight from the horses’ mouth on my podcast yesterday.

Changing the number of arrows as also proposed (and rejected) or the size of the target as also proposed (and rejected) is the sort of thing that resets records- this isn’t.

Also, implementation of this rule will be discussed by the WA Executive Board next month, and there is a chance they’ll delay it until outdoor season at the least, and possibly even scrap it- so a deep breath and perhaps a small drink might be in order for those who have had their blood pressure rise over this one.

(But hey, don’t let me be the one to throw water on the usual AT pitchforks and torches. Feel free to carry on.)


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

>--gt--> said:


> I’m not sure what you’re responding to, but you should be aware that the time change would NOT have any impact on current World Records, just as other major and minor changes (Grand FITA, 10-seconds to the line, 6-ring 80cm faces, AB-CD-CD-AB, etc.) did not reset the records.
> 
> If anything asked for new records, it was the Grand FITA, after all. But that didn’t happen, and this won’t change it either. I have that assurance from the highest levels at WA, and you can hear it for yourself straight from the horses’ mouth on my podcast yesterday.
> 
> ...



Without outing any of your sources, perhaps just a personal opinion, do you think the exec board will reconsider? Listening to the session 2 motions it sort of sounded like the board had made their minds up even before the session, and again the comparisons of the time difference to other para accommodations came across as a little short sighted [ouch, that was PUNishing], but might their position soften since the other "time saving" proposals didn't go through? 

Also wonder how many other NGBs are voicing their opinions to the board, any idea GT? 

It was mentioned above that the general assembly was in favor of the change by a simple majority, but I didn't catch that in listening to the proposal, is there a document somewhere that outlines which organizations were in favor of the change; just curious as to the possible correlation between those in favor and their para programs/support...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I think they did-they want to be able to trumpet that NEW WORLD RECORDS Have been shot-like the 600/600 compound indoor score that will stand forever-unless they change the rules-and now they can scream that WE HAVE A NEW WORLD RECORD. I think that is the main motivation for it


I don't really see that Jim. 

It could have some effect on people's ability to break records just simply because giving outdoor shooters less time can only lead to lower scores due to not being able to wait out as many wind gusts. But that's the only real affect I can see and it will probably be negligible for those who are in a position to set a record anyway.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have to point out that even after having been banned three times now, gt continues to put down this forum at every opportunity. It really makes one wonder why he even bothers with it when his opinion of the forum so low.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Without outing any of your sources, perhaps just a personal opinion, do you think the exec board will reconsider? Listening to the session 2 motions it sort of sounded like the board had made their minds up even before the session, and again the comparisons of the time difference to other para accommodations came across as a little short sighted [ouch, that was PUNishing], but might their position soften since the other "time saving" proposals didn't go through?
> 
> Also wonder how many other NGBs are voicing their opinions to the board, any idea GT?
> 
> It was mentioned above that the general assembly was in favor of the change by a simple majority, but I didn't catch that in listening to the proposal, is there a document somewhere that outlines which organizations were in favor of the change; just curious as to the possible correlation between those in favor and their para programs/support...



Okay TBA you dumb [mule], listen first ask questions second... 

I'm still at a loss with the differences between paras and the "others," Yes, I can enter open events, and I do with NFAA where there are no VI rules, but it seems like, and maybe only because it's me, there's still an issue. Yes, paras can shoot open events, and even use our adaptive equipment, but the VIs stand out here because while the recurve and compound open/W2 athletes shoot the same distances and target sizes as the able bodied, the VIs do not. We all shoot the same distance indoors, but VIs get a 60cm target... Not familiar with the W1 parameters, but point is that I may hit the bale at 50m with a compound, but based on my 30m groups with recurve, I won't hit the North American continent at 70m; would I try it, maybe, but my spotter and any other generous people near by would be spending hours looking for my arrows- and I'm not supposed to be discouraged from competing buy this... 

And yes Europe has more "para only" opportunities with the European series, the US has maybe two "para" events, the rest we/I rely on being able to shoot our rules along side the able bodied at the same events. Frustrating, but it seems my soap box is shrinking so perhaps a "suck it up and deal" revelation is coming.


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

with this new time limit, will it gain anymore archers to USA events?


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

LongTime said:


> with this new time limit, will it gain anymore archers to USA events?


30s per arrow (1:30 indoors, 3:00 outdoors). It will not gain additional archers. If anything, it may lower US Archery tournament attendance.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I don’t see any advantage other than when running multiple lines in a day at large events. From a shooting perspective I don’t have a problem with it personally but some will struggle. As it stands now I usually finish in this time anyway. I will have to be more mindful of time. Luckily I have been working on speeding up my shot as suggested by my coach and should have no problem. But others will feel rushed and some are likely to avoid tournaments under these timing rules if it stands. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

After listening to the Easton Target Archery Podcast and Tom Dielan, I could draw a few conclusions. 1) It seems as if WA wanted something, anything to shorten tournament length and the Executive Board was only empowered to change the timing. So they did. 2) There is likely to be a delayed implementation of the rule, largely because of the timing of the Nimes event. 3) No new records will be possible because of timing. He likened the timing change to the change of bringing archers to the line from 20 seconds, to 10 seconds. In my mind, it is not at all comparable, but that was his mindset. 4) Because the Executive Board brought the rule forward, they can revert the rule quickly should it be deleterious to the sport. 1 year versus 4 years had Congress enacted any rule. 

The impetus of the change was 100% about shortening events to the point where fewer days would be needed to conduct an event. I read that as MONEY. The single rule change will NOT do this. So perhaps this is an incremental change and stay tuned. As many have pointed out, there is so much time spent between the 3 whistles and the beginning of the next end, that it seems insignificant to cut 24 minutes from a line time. The goal of fewer days for a World Cup event was not met and now all archers operating under WA rules have to adapt to a rule which has not met its intended goal.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

And one question not posed by George but a very relevant one, should have been, will the rule increase or decrease participation in tournaments. One I would have loved Tom to have answered.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I see simple addition competitions in our future.  In order to qualify for a WA sanctioned event, you must be able to add 10+9+9+8+7+5 in your head in less than 10 seconds and then add 52+54+50+49+48+51 on paper in less than 20 seconds. Otherwise you are a liability to the sport. LOL


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Really though, efforts to reduce time at the target, rather than time on the line, would have a much greater impact on total event times.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Really though, efforts to reduce time at the target, rather than time on the line, would have a much greater impact on total event times.


There is/was the hope the electronic scoring would do this, since people didn't have to "math" but then came the "technical difficulties..."


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

The rule proposal to instantly DQ any archer with more than three off-bale misses in a single session will surely reduce competition times as well. Much less raking and digging required.



midwayarcherywi said:


> And one question not posed by George but a very relevant one, should have been, will the rule increase or decrease participation in tournaments. One I would have loved Tom to have answered.


It seems to me the answer to that would be quite obvious.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The simple question could have provided some insights about whom he was trying to impact and if the downstream effects were considered. While the answers will be evident in time, while making decisions, that very basic question should have been considered.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> The simple question could have provided some insights about whom he was trying to impact and if the downstream effects were considered. While the answers will be evident in time, while making decisions, that very basic question should have been considered.


But, it should be obvious.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> The rule proposal to instantly DQ any archer with more than three off-bale misses in a single session will surely reduce competition times as well. Much less raking and digging required.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me the answer to that would be quite obvious.


Would have had some DQ's in Athens in '04. LOL


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Well, with a "3 misses and you're out" rule, I'll get to shoot about half of the first end... Even worse, from the podcast with Dielen, I will be welcome to shoot in the open class... I'm not sure I can recurve my arrows out to 70m, but to the relief of the FITA forum, I'll have to go back to the General forum and my compound...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Heck, we're all just lucky they even let us play their game most days. LOL

I met Tom in Vegas. Shot on the same bale with him for one round and thoroughly enjoyed myself. He's a very nice man. I can't imagine him intentionally ignoring any participants, but as the president or ceo of a major org, there are a lot of things to consider. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until and unless I learn otherwise, which I don't expect to.

Unless I'm just a terrible judge of character, Tom is a pretty good guy.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Never met him in person, but we shoot the same virtual tournament on Sundays; yes, nice person, have chatted with him a couple times through the social media we use for scoring.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> I’m not sure what you’re responding to, but you should be aware that the time change would NOT have any impact on current World Records, just as other major and minor changes (Grand FITA, 10-seconds to the line, 6-ring 80cm faces, AB-CD-CD-AB, etc.) did not reset the records.
> 
> If anything asked for new records, it was the Grand FITA, after all. But that didn’t happen, and this won’t change it either. I have that assurance from the highest levels at WA, and you can hear it for yourself straight from the horses’ mouth on my podcast yesterday.
> 
> ...


For years I was a serious ISU skeet shooter. Started right after the 76 games. Retired after a guy I helped coach made the Atlanta games. In that time period, we saw several changes including the reduction of the shot weight from 1 1/8 to 1 to 24G (which is slightly less than 7/8) and two different rotation changes in terms of the target presentation. All resulted in new "world records". 

Given there has been NO (at least from what I have seen) demand for a reduction in time at any of the shoots I judge or coach at, and I have not recalled seeing any such clamoring among the masses, I was merely suggesting what we saw done with the ISU. 

some sports' changes are for obvious reasons. I was also a 2100 level table tennis player with a couple wins over close to world class players. TT is the most practiced sport in the world but it's hard to follow on TV (ie $$$$$) enlarging the ball from 38mm to 40MM made TV viewing easier. Shorting the games to 11 points also helped and requiring different colored rubber sheets on the two sides of the paddle, eliminated some of what the public took for silly errors from the deception.

thanks for your wise input over the world records: once again I was merely going on what has happened in other shooting sports-ones that I am also quite familiar with


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Jim,

If anything called for a change to the records, the Grand FITA was certainly it. 

I personally feel Darrell’s 10-year record from 1979 of 1341 in rain and with no sight marks was NEVER really broken (until the modern era)… but that’s just me.

This situation will be resolved one way or another and at the end of the day, it won’t affect much at all.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

>--gt--> said:


> Jim,
> 
> If anything called for a change to the records, the Grand FITA was certainly it.
> 
> ...


I think the able bodied shooters complaining need to suck it up. 30s/arrow is plenty of time to make a good shot. 

I think the concerns para archers have about access to events at anything other than a world level are completely valid though. They’re a small portion of the archery population, but making our sport accessible is an important goal that aligns with both WA and USArchery’s stated mission. 

WA wrote the rule thinking of para events as separate, because that’s how they run them. That’s simply not the case for even national level events, however.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I think the able bodied shooters complaining need to suck it up. 30s/arrow is plenty of time to make a good shot.
> 
> I think the concerns para archers have about access to events at anything other than a world level are completely valid though. They’re a small portion of the archery population, but making our sport accessible is an important goal that aligns with both WA and USArchery’s stated mission.
> 
> WA wrote the rule thinking of para events as separate, because that’s how they run them. That’s simply not the case for even national level events, however.



I hate to get really selfish and all "look at me," but it has the potential of being even more of an issue with the VIs; Yes it's a disadvantage to the other para classifications in general to be ranked with the able bodied shooters, but all the other classifications at least shoot the same distances and targets; the VIs either shoot much shorter distances [outdoors] or larger targets [indoors]. I'm pretty sure WA rules allow me my adaptive equipment in an open event, but I didn't read anywhere where I would be allowed the other target/distance accommodations. It's just a little discouraging that to this point the best answer from any of the governing bodies and their para committees is "We don't know..."


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

At my very first archery competition I shared a target with a para archer, and helped score and collect his arrows. Throughout my archery career I've shared practice and competition lines with all classifications of para archers, VI included.

Archery has always seemed to me to be a very inclusive sport compared with others, although there is always room for improvement of course. This rule change is a massive backwards step. I really hope World Archery will think again.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

So here's a dumb idea that might be worth trying:

We say that the rule implementation becomes based on inclusivity, especially for normal events with the mix of categories. So, if the event has any para archers in any session, then the whole event uses 40s/arrow. Otherwise 30s/arrow. The non-para-archers need to be prepared to perform at 30s/arrow, but the whole event adjusts to include anyone who has the right to 40s/arrow.

But what about fairness? What about records? As we've seen, apparently this time change does not warrant a reset of records, so it must not thought to be highly impactful. So we call it equivalent and move on with our lives.

What about chicanery? What if someone just always brings a para-athlete to an event to get 40s/arrow? My answer is "Oh no! Someone is going out of their way to recruit and include more para athletes? That's... just fine by me <shrug>."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tkaap said:


> So here's a dumb idea that might be worth trying:
> 
> We say that the rule implementation becomes based on inclusivity, especially for normal events with the mix of categories. So, if the event has any para archers in any session, then the whole event uses 40s/arrow. Otherwise 30s/arrow. The non-para-archers need to be prepared to perform at 30s/arrow, but the whole event adjusts to include anyone who has the right to 40s/arrow.
> 
> ...


Good post. Makes perfect sense. Of course, there will be those able-bodied archers who balk because they expected a para archer to be present and found out the day of competition it would be a 30s event. 

Our tournament officials are going to love this one. Good thing they are already so well compensated.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

tkaap said:


> So here's a dumb idea that might be worth trying:
> 
> We say that the rule implementation becomes based on inclusivity, especially for normal events with the mix of categories. So, if the event has any para archers in any session, then the whole event uses 40s/arrow. Otherwise 30s/arrow. The non-para-archers need to be prepared to perform at 30s/arrow, but the whole event adjusts to include anyone who has the right to 40s/arrow.
> 
> ...



So two clocks, what would be even easier would be para on one line and able bodied on the others


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Listened to a podcast yesterday that had a little more about the time change; guess I sort of came away from it with the feeling that the potential impact on the paras is only significant in my [and a few others on here, thank you all] in my own little world of rant; the argument was made about the potential impact at the club level shooters, and while I was hoping for the para inclusion it never came about. Plus, brought this topic up in a VI archery FB page; had one comment that the rule wasn't on the books yet [this was about a day or so after the announcement], and one comment from an Italian compounder who also said he didn't practice at 50m... and crickets. These people have far more experience than I, so maybe the potential problems I hear [PUNishing BlindArcher thing] doesn't exist and my "3y/o crying in the candy isle" rant is a figment of my lack of experience...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Listened to a podcast yesterday that had a little more about the time change; guess I sort of came away from it with the feeling that the potential impact on the paras is only significant in my [and a few others on here, thank you all] in my own little world of rant; the argument was made about the potential impact at the club level shooters, and while I was hoping for the para inclusion it never came about. Plus, brought this topic up in a VI archery FB page; had one comment that the rule wasn't on the books yet [this was about a day or so after the announcement], and one comment from an Italian compounder who also said he didn't practice at 50m... and crickets. These people have far more experience than I, so maybe the potential problems I hear [PUNishing BlindArcher thing] doesn't exist and my "3y/o crying in the candy isle" rant is a figment of my lack of experience...


Your experience is your experience and nobody should be putting it down - including you.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Looks like implementation of the new timing rule is being pushed back to March 1, with an executive board decision on scrapping the new timing all together being discussed in early December.


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## J-me Lynne (Nov 26, 2021)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Looks like implementation of the new timing rule is being pushed back to March 1, with an executive board decision on scrapping the new timing all together being discussed in early December.


I hope this is true!!!


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Would have been interesting to see the archers at Niems shoot 40sec one day and 30sec the next...


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Jan 15, 2022, AFAIK


I hope so!!!! I'm registered for 2 USA Archery Events over the next 2 weekends.... I shot a practice round tonight and struggled with the clock. I felt rushed (even though I finished in plenty of time) every single end.



FerrumVeritas said:


> *I think the able bodied shooters complaining need to suck it up. 30s/arrow is plenty of time to make a good shot.*
> 
> I think the concerns para archers have about access to events at anything other than a world level are completely valid though. They’re a small portion of the archery population, but making our sport accessible is an important goal that aligns with both WA and USArchery’s stated mission.
> 
> WA wrote the rule thinking of para events as separate, because that’s how they run them. That’s simply not the case for even national level events, however.


I think this is a crock of bull-malarky!!!! I've done multiple 2 day events where half of the participants shot Saturday and the other half shot Sunday. Saturday was 70 degrees and sunny with little to no breeze. Sunday was cloudy with steady winds at 15mph and gusts over 20 mph... That extra 10s per arrow gives the competitors a chance for a let down or 2 during an outdoor event when the winds are beating the crap out of you.

This being said, I generally don't have issues with changes so long as there is a true purpose or benefit to the sport as a whole.... I don't see any "real" benefit to this change...


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> I hope so!!!! I'm registered for 2 USA Archery Events over the next 2 weekends.... I shot a practice round tonight and struggled with the clock. I felt rushed (even though I finished in plenty of time) every single end.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The implementation of the time change has been pushed back to March 1, with the "possibility" it will be reversed, but no breath holding on that.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> The implementation of the time change has been pushed back to March 1, with the "possibility" it will be reversed, but no breath holding on that.


Thanks for the update!!!!


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Interesting. Though when I was competing, I was usually off the line (outdoors) about midway through the end, maybe 1 1/2mins still on the clock if I was chipper that day and shooting with my normal rhythm. Indoors, maybe I took a little longer, but I didn't find myself in the yellow light very often.

I would agree that this could be a concern for shooters who normally have a slightly longer shot cycle, like Kelley and others that have been mentioned. 

For me, when my rhythm is normal, tho, I bang em out pretty quick so it won't affect me. But the universe isn't all about me, so I echo the concerns expressed by others. 

And Stash has a good point that the actual shooting time is a mere fraction of the other drags on the length of a typical tournament... 

lee.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I think the able bodied shooters complaining need to suck it up. 30s/arrow is plenty of time to make a good shot.


And what about archers with invisible disabilities? The para-archery rules don't cover them. 

Naturally, there are "able-body" archers that do use that time and perform well because of it. As a new archer to my first tournament, I was nocking my third arrow with 30 seconds still on the clock. Yes, I was last on the line, but the time was important for me to shoot good, considered shots.

I am glad you shot fast: you should feel grateful of your heath. You might find there are other people in the world that are different from you. As a disabled person myself, but not one with a physical disability, I wish my "able-bodied" archer peers could show a bit more grace towards those that do have challenges.


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## FocalPoint (Dec 3, 2021)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Yes, this was voted on in Congress and approved by the Executive Board.


It has been scripted into the WA Articles however, Archery GB have asked members for their opinion and it looks that AGB will be lobbying as being inappropriate. Personally, I think it hasnt been proposed by Archers but Officialdom and whilst it might be that most climates accommodate good shooting weather we certainly dont enjoy that certainty in the UK and the shooting line from target 1 Archers to the last Target competitors can be considerably different weather wise!!!!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

30 seconds per arrow stays. Sigh. Looks like a carve out so Indoor events will have 40 seconds per arrow this year. Here is the announcement from the WA page:

Mandatory equipment inspection has been removed from stages of the Hyundai Archery World Cup alongside the introduction of a single combined practice session. Athletes will be able to optionally attend inspection during the period, with random spot checks during the event for those who do not.

Bylaws to remove equipment failure stoppages, increase the maximum number of international judges to 80, and clarify the new 30-second-per-arrow time limit were accepted.

There was a long discussion on the implications of the new timing, which had already been accepted as a bylaw by the board during its meeting after congress, and its application at national tournaments.

Ultimately, it was decided to keep the new 30-second rule for all world ranking events in 2022. (Para world ranking events remaining at 40 seconds.)

At the same time, there will be further guidance issued on the rule’s caveat, which states that the timing can be extended back to 40 seconds under certain circumstances, aimed at national events ahead of the outdoor season.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

midwayarcherywi said:


> 30 seconds per arrow stays. Sigh. Looks like a carve out so Indoor events will have 40 seconds per arrow this year. Here is the announcement from the WA page:
> 
> Mandatory equipment inspection has been removed from stages of the Hyundai Archery World Cup alongside the introduction of a single combined practice session. Athletes will be able to optionally attend inspection during the period, with random spot checks during the event for those who do not.
> 
> ...



Wonder if the wording means that non-WRE events like local or state shoots can still use the 40sec clock...


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

This is the WA news blog post:








Executive board approves international license for 2022


The new license includes insurance cover.




worldarchery.sport


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

As a practical matter, this won’t affect anyone on this thread- it applies to world ranking events, and therefore, unless you’re on the USA team traveling internationally, nothing you will shoot in the USA will be under this rule. Wiggle room has been built in for national level and below.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

That's what I was wondering based on the wording of the announcement, thanks for the clarification.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> As a practical matter, this won’t affect anyone on this thread- it applies to world ranking events, and therefore, unless you’re on the USA team traveling internationally, nothing you will shoot in the USA will be under this rule. Wiggle room has been built in for national level and below.


I read the announcement and it certainly wasn't specified whether there would be exceptions that NGB's could employ for outdoor rounds. I certainly hope that it is the case.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

To put it simply, the long-existing “exceptional circumstances” rule will apply for all events, and can be employed by National and lower level events to set timing at 40 seconds… or really, whatever they choose. 

WA’s various committees will be issuing guidance to refine the meaning of “exceptional circumstances” (such as, for example, the presence of a Para-archer in a non-Para event, or heavy wind conditions). In addition, all NGB’s will be given further detailed guidance in a virtual meeting in the next few days.

Bottom line- USAA can set whatever time they see fit for their events, and since they won’t be running any WRE’s in the foreseeable future, the issue is moot.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I know STAR registered events, eligible for world records, are not ranking events, but I have ask if those fall under the "exceptional" clause or do we follow the WA's 30 second rule?


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Seattlepop said:


> I know STAR registered events, eligible for world records, are not ranking events, but I have ask if those fall under the "exceptional" clause or do we follow the WA's 30 second rule?



I'm nobody who knows nothing, but it sounds lie at this point those registered non-WRE events would be shot at the 40sec time, and presumedly WRs wouldn't be effected either way... It may add a level of difficulty in WREs, but honestly how often in "record setting conditions" is the time a factor? Would be interesting to hear some more experienced opinions on it. 

As a whole though, while a couple statements in the announcement sort of made me say "huh???" I think personally the solution is workable, not just from my little para soap box, but in general- generally those at the top of the game shooting at a slightly higher standard. 

Okay ladies and gentlemen, HUGE announcement... Offering my "para characteristics" to anyone who wants to shoot an WRE and have a little extra time... Provide a spotter and buy me lunch, maybe an adult beverage after the shoot, and I'll gladly be one of those "extraordinary circumstances."


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## DNez2001 (Sep 3, 2017)

would you expect usa archery to issue a clarification as it applies to indoor Nationals and usat events? we've started practicing 90 sec indoor at our weekly joad shoots, and should stop if this will not apply at indoor Nats 

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Are Indoor Nats a world ranking event; Either way, the rule isn't supposed to take effect until March 1 last I heard. 

As for USAT events there should be more clarification in the coming couple weeks WA is supposed to be meeting with NGBs regarding the rule implementation, but again I would guess probably not because again I don't think they are world ranking events. I didn't look thoroughly, but a quick look and I didn't come across any WREs in the US in the foreseeable future. And if I'm understanding the new decision correctly, USAT wouldn't even be allowed to require the 30sec times; I know the rules allow the judges to extend the time if they feel it is necessary, I didn't read anywhere where they would be allowed to shorten it.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I don't think practicing for a 30s time limit is a bad idea. Indoors your shots really should be that quick anyway.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

DNez2001 said:


> would you expect usa archery to issue a clarification as it applies to indoor Nationals and usat events? we've started practicing 90 sec indoor at our weekly joad shoots, and should stop if this will not apply at indoor Nats
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


WA pushed the implementation date to outdoor season two weeks ago- and it only applies to World Ranking Events anyway. No reason for a local level indoor club to implement it, at all- USAA Indoor events (as well as outdoor) will all use 40/120 second timing.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> WA pushed the implementation date to outdoor season two weeks ago- and it only applies to World Ranking Events anyway. No reason for a local level indoor club to implement it, at all- USAA Indoor events (as well as outdoor) will all use 40/120 second timing.


Frankly, this rule, added to the 100 CHF license fee and to the cut back to top 64 without bye's as in the old days does not look like a new system designed to increment participation to WR events. I miss the design behind it, if any.


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