# Ontario 3D crossbow rule



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

_I'm not looking to restart another discussion on this issue - this is for information only:_


The Ontario Association of Archers last fall passed a new set of competition rules. 

They lifted the previous 280 fps rule for compound bows and changed it to 5 grains per pound, which would allow speeds in excess of 350 fps for a long draw shooter with a high-speed bow. 

However, they decided to continue with a 300 FPS speed limit for crossbows. 

This did not seem reasonable to me, so in December I asked the OAA Board to reconsider and raise that limit to 350, which would permit all current production crossbows (except the Stryker) to be useable with a reasonably available arrow. The 300 fps rule would make many newer bows, including the Exomax/Equinox and possibly the Exocet/Vortex, and many top-end bows from other manufacturers, illegal for 3D competition. 

The Board discussed this matter, but rejected the request. 

I have again requested the Board to reconsider the issue - the Board does have the power to change shooting rules temporarily, subject to ratification at the next Annual General Meeting. 

*If you are an OAA member and are in favour of raising the OAA 3D speed limit for crossbows from 300 to 350 fps, please contact a Board member with your input. *

They have a meeting scheduled for May, and this issue is on the agenda. We can get this changed in time for the OAA 3D Championships this summer. 

Thanks.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Stan,

As much as possible the OAA tried to adopt the FCA shooting rules and regs verbatim. The FCA does not recognize crossbow as a catagory. However, the FCA does follow IBO rules for most of it's own 3D rules. The IBO does have a crossbow class, and the limitations on it are a max draw weight of 190lbs, and a max speed of 300fps. It is widely accepted that if the FCA does indeed adopt a crossbow class (the issue is being looked at), it will follow the IBO's lead on rules. Therefore it made sense that the OAA acted in a manner which would allow for a streamline adaptation of any future FCA crossbow rules.

We needed to adopt some rules for the class, it seems appropriate to act proactively to what will likely be the standard should the FCA bring in a crossbow class. Should the IBO, and FCA standard change at some point in time, the OAA would also review the current decision and ruling.

And, as mentioned by others previously, there were also concerns relayed to the Board with regards to safety, and also to target damage. I only mention this as a point of note, not a point of contention.

In calling for your signature petition, perhaps you should consider contacting each of the clubs in the province and get their input as well.

Cheers


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

Dennis, I understand the overall appeal of aligning with a larger organization, but in general it can't beat the expense of logic. As Stan has pointed out on numerous occasions, virtually all new crossbow/arrow combinations that the average Joe would purchase are NOT eligible to shoot according to the rules as the currently stand.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2008)

I too see the logic of following the IBO but in this case I feel that the OAA is so far ahead of the IBO with reguards to crossbows that we need not hand cuff ourselves for the sake of conformity, to date we have had only a few compete in the crossbow division at the IBO champs over several years. In the OAA our crossbow shooters are core hunters that actually use the same bow and arrows for both tournaments and hunting. It is pretty hard to get a majority of manufacturers recommended setups to go under the 300fps cap. It is much easier for compounds as they can easily adjust draw weight and arrow weight. Crossbows pose a different difficulty as since the draw weight cannot be adjusted and draw is fixed your only avenue is arrow weight or buy another bow just for target that comes in a lighter draw, even then it is harder. The Parker crossbow I shot in the OAA/Fita champs shot their arrow of 425gr at 320fps I had to add nearly 90gr to it to get it under 300fps, not an easy task with a 20" bolt. The intent of the rules is to have as many archer participate under common rules, if the available equipment exceeds those rules by a majority then it only allows fewer archers to participate


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Guys, I'm not disputing the issue, just stating the facts. 

I also appreciate and understand the issue relating to getting crossbows under the limit, I also own one that is difficult to bring in under the limit. But It can be done.

As a point of note, the speed limit in the OAA for crossbows, has been 300fps for several years now. This isn't the first year that crossbow shooters have faced the limit.

Bring the issue back to the OAA for discussion, but come back with some background info, and some feedback from not only OAA members, but the clubs that host tournaments. Also wouldn't be a bad idea to have someone contact Ken at the IBO to see what their intents are on crossbows in the near future.

Cheers


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

> The mandate of the Ontario Association of Archers Inc.(O.A.A.) shall be:
> 
> To develop, promote, expand and perpetuate participation in all forms of the sport of archery throughout the Province of Ontario.


I believe that it is clear that restricting the crossbow speed to 300 does not follow the spirit of the OAA mandate.

I wasn't going to restart a discussion here, but I have one last point in addition to the ones that I, Sean, hoody and others have made:

Check the IBO results in the crossbow division (www.IBO.net). I went through a whole bunch of results, and couldn't find a single event in the last 4 years, including their "world championships", that had more than 8 people shooting the crossbow division. Often there were no entries. And when there were results, in most cases it was the same few people each time.

Is following the IBO lead on this issue the right thing to do? It seems to me that the IBO crossbow rules are pretty exclusionary, otherwise they'd have many more people participating. 

Maybe we should be the leaders on this, not the followers?


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*Stash .....*

I have to agree with you on this one :wink:

Why restrict one and not the other ..... the crossbow limit should be around 350 ..... take it to the board Stash, see what they say


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

what Stan said. 

The OAA has been on the foreront of many things that were not what the World had proclaimed the norm. We said inner ten was a bad idea and later it was removed from outdoor events, we said cadets shooting senior distances was wrong and we were proven right. I think the OAA is way out in front of the crossbow issue aswell.


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

*So then*

If the OAA is such a forward thinking group. Did we take a step backwards on adopting the FCA rules across the board, or is this just a crossbow issue


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## Foghorn (Jun 24, 2005)

Sean McKenty said:


> what Stan said.
> 
> The OAA has been on the foreront of many things that were not what the World had proclaimed the norm. We said inner ten was a bad idea and later it was removed from outdoor events, we said cadets shooting senior distances was wrong and we were proven right. I think the OAA is way out in front of the crossbow issue aswell.


So if the OAA has got it going on so well, why are you changing everything to FCA, IFAA and IBO rules?????


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## Miss Pink (Nov 5, 2007)

Amen Murdock and Foghorn!

Sorry 'bout the hijack.


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## Green Archer22 (Oct 27, 2007)

*oaa*

Inner ten was a bad idea and was removed from outdoor.....soooooooo we move it to indoor??? Ummmmm it's not just me. Is it?:wink:


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Miss Pink said:


> Amen Murdock and Foghorn!
> 
> Sorry 'bout the hijack.


What is the Amen for. I just asked a question?


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Green Archer22 said:


> Inner ten was a bad idea and was removed from outdoor.....soooooooo we move it to indoor??? Ummmmm it's not just me. Is it?:wink:


What is the problem with the inner 10 scoring. You score it the same as a outer 10 then do a little math. The Fita scoring allows you to compare your scores to people in the country and across the world.


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

Foghorn said:


> So if the OAA has got it going on so well, why are you changing everything to FCA, IFAA and IBO rules?????


Deitmar.

As a National and International competitor do you not see any advantages to changing the rules to aligin with nation and international archery bodies?


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Stash said:


> I believe that it is clear that restricting the crossbow speed to 300 does not follow the spirit of the OAA mandate.
> 
> I wasn't going to restart a discussion here, but I have one last point in addition to the ones that I, Sean, hoody and others have made:
> 
> ...


Stan, and others.....

As I said, the decision to cap the limit at 300 was based upon the general rules alignment with FCA (and through them, IBO on 3D). And also on concerns that were related to the board from some clubs regarding safety and target damage. Once again, I'm not here to dispute those reasons, just stating the facts.

Now, there is no doubt that Ontario is a leader in crossbow shooting. We were the first in Canada to allow crossbows into the regular archery season, I think we are still only one of two provinces to do so. And crossbows have been a fixture at tournaments in the provinces for a while as well. Though, as a note, the number of participants is usually a low percentage of overall turnout. As an example, at the OAA 3D championships the past four years, there have been a total of 6,6,4, and 3 crossbow competitors respectively.

So, take out the rules alignment issue, we still have to deal with the concerns addressed to the OAA from member clubs regarding safety and target damage (again, I'm not arguing whether these are valid points, only stating facts). Remembering that the OAA mandate is not only to serve the individual membership, but club members and corporate members. Keep in mind also that the OAA took some heat from member clubs when crossbows were introduced in the Grand Championship, and included in indoor play. 

Coming back to the board with a individual signature petition from a website does not address all the issues. I have no doubt that there would be little opposition from crossbow shooters to up the limit, as the speed generated from a crossbow is not contingent on the archer, as it is with a compound or recurve. I'd also suggest that corporate members won't really have much issue.

If you want the board to revisit the issue, come back with some additional input. Input that fairly represents all interested parties. At minimum I would suggest that you contact the member clubs, and have them state their opinion on the matter. I'm not suggesting that one individual take on this task, split it up by zone......... get your zone director involved, and offer to help out.

I suggest that you do this prior to the next OAA board meeting if you want the issue resolved at that meeting 

Cheers


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Grey Eagle said:


> And crossbows have been a fixture at tournaments in the provinces for a while as well. Though, as a note, the number of participants is usually a low percentage of overall turnout. As an example, at the OAA 3D championships the past four years, there have been a total of 6,6,4, and 3 crossbow competitors respectively.


Do you think it's possible that the low speed limit has actually been instrumental in keeping that larger numbers of crossbow shooters away, both at the IBO and the OAA level? 

The FCA 3D champs this past summer, with NO speed limit, had 27 entries in the crossbow division, 22 from Ontario. That was the 3rd highest division by participation, and the 2nd highest number of Ontario shooters (after BHR).


I wasn't going to get sucked into another on-line discussion on this......  :wink:


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

There's an online poll at www.oaa-archery.on.ca. We're not going to make our decision based on this but it will be used to give us an indication of the public's feelings.

Also, make sure you contact your zone director (link below) and express your feelings for or against.

Lastly, facts will make decision making a lot easier.

Board contacts: https://www.oaa-archery.on.ca/index.php?option=com_contact&catid=2&Itemid=65


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*thanks .....*



CaptainT said:


> There's an online poll at www.oaa-archery.on.ca. We're not going to make our decision based on this but it will be used to give us an indication of the public's feelings.
> 
> Also, make sure you contact your zone director (link below) and express your feelings for or against.
> 
> ...


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Stash said:


> Do you think it's possible that the low speed limit has actually been instrumental in keeping that larger numbers of crossbow shooters away, both at the IBO and the OAA level?
> 
> The FCA 3D champs this past summer, with NO speed limit, had 27 entries in the crossbow division, 22 from Ontario. That was the 3rd highest division by participation, and the 2nd highest number of Ontario shooters (after BHR).
> 
> ...


My comments on whether the current speed cap has limited the number of participants in either the IBO or the OAA events would purely be speculation on my part as I have no data or information to make a factual statement.

As for the FCA 3D Championships this past summer in Ontario, I do have a few thoughts to add to your comments.

There were just about double the total participants at the event as to what would be typically expected at an OAA championship. On that equation alone I would expect the crossbow class to be higher at this event.

Three crossbow manufacturers put on a concentrated effort to bolster the ranks of that division, by putting in a number of factory and sponsored shooters. This may have had something to do with the industry trying to sway the opinion of the FCA to take the division on as permanent, as opposed to a non-recognized guest catagory as it was at this event. This was the first time a crossbow division had been offered in FCA play.

The host club made great efforts to promote the event to crossbow shooters. A good deal of advertising went into this (specifically towards crossbow shooters). And a large dollar prize (outside of FCA presentations) was offered up only to this class.



I look forward to seeing what comes forward from your petition Stan 

Cheers


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Foghorn said:


> So if the OAA has got it going on so well, why are you changing everything to FCA, IFAA and IBO rules?????


THats easy both Fita and the IFAA are international bodies one target based and one hunting based, the IBO is not, outside of the Northeast USA there are basicaly non existant.

I thuoght our 3-D rules were fine but at the AGM it didn't turn out that way, the membership wanted the FCA rules and got them


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2008)

Green Archer22 said:


> Inner ten was a bad idea and was removed from outdoor.....soooooooo we move it to indoor??? Ummmmm it's not just me. Is it?:wink:



No not you Fita, Fita had inner 10/5 scoring for all compounds, after a couple years Fita removed the inner scoring from the outdoor venues as perfect score were not close( something many Fita member nations see as a problem) They kept inner ten for the indoor venues as even with inner ten near perfect scores were still there. As of this year Fita has gone back to inner scoring in Fita field rounds now scoring the X as a 6 since there are now many shooters shooting perfect or near perfect scores.


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## Summerfeldt (Oct 19, 2006)

I thought this was adiscusion about cross bows not fita/ifaa.

If you look at the cross bows on the market today they range from 280 fps all the way to 350 fps.

Sponsored shooters and there is alot of ya just by the looks of all the blue shirts at the FCA 3D champs last year. You are expected to shoot the top of the line bows for the geneal public to see and they just happen to be the 350 fps bows SO I don't see why they can't up the limit to 350 fps.

I know when I sell a X-Bow the people want the biggest and the best.

As for target damage thats a joke. They don't hurt the target any more than compounds. Cross Bows or compounds we all try to shoot the 12 ring out and that is what is hard on targets it is the shooters we are just tooooo good.:wink:

If you don't want the targets damaged then make the shots harder like hide the target so we can hardly see the scoring rings and have to make the impossible shot.

Sorry for venting but when I had my own 3D course I mad the shots hard but not impossible and people complaned. I never made money off turny's but did have alot of fun with the people that came out. There's that FUN word again.


Maybe we should make a new peg for X-Bows max 70 yards.:darkbeer:

Any way's there is a shoot in Sudbury this weekend Indoor 3D info is in the book maybe we can tear up there targets.

Like Sean said show up at the AGM and speak your mind.



Grant

ps. OK let me have it I can take it.:darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Everybody wants rules this way and that way. They complain and get the rules changed then stop shooting. I guess people figure that certain rules are the only things that keep them from winning. Lets face it, change the rules one way or another and it won't change attendance, whining, cheating...... etc. one whit.
Fast x-bows, slow x-bows, inner vs. outer......
Does it make any difference ever?
The OAA has spoken once on this issue, why ask again?


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

forgive me if I am way off base here .... after all I just be a little red in the neck out west here ... But wouldnt it make sense for the the OAA to pull their collective heads out of their butts and when they made the Xbow div ... to create a a set of standards for that div .... 

I understand they had the 280 fps rule/300 as I read it now ....but why put a blanket over a such a radically differant class .... yes X-bows are archery equip in ONT and I dont dispute that ... but unlike compounds as previously stated above ... its real freakin tough to adjust the speed comming out of the commercially availible X-bows. 

I dont know about the trad div in the OAA ... but do they have a weight limit specific to that class like say 90 pounds like the FCA where I think the compound div has a max of 70 pound draw and cubs are 40 pound ...or something like that ... 

Just a thought ...
If it were my org I would push for any commercially availible product ... But thats just me ... 

I know If i wasnt who i was and only had one bow ie: if I were just a recreational type of guy .... I would never be able to shoot in the OAA as i wouldnt wanna bother to re-set my stuff just to shoot a 3d ... I would wanna shoot what i use for hunting ...save broadheads of course... My hunting bow is set at 70 pounds and flings my hunting arrows at just over 300 fps and My hunting arrows are 426 grains ... ok so now i might beable if i snuck in under a 3% chrony diff rule ... but as a recreational joe blow I would not wanna have to turn my bow down for a weekend ..re-sight blah blah blah ...then do it again come hunting season ...
not a good way IMHO to attract new shooters to the OAA and again in My opinion its definatly NOT following its mandate as posted above ...



Just my thoughts .. take em as you see fit


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

cath8r said:


> Everybody wants rules this way and that way. They complain and get the rules changed then stop shooting. I guess people figure that certain rules are the only things that keep them from winning. Lets face it, change the rules one way or another and it won't change attendance, whining, cheating...... etc. one whit.
> Fast x-bows, slow x-bows, inner vs. outer......
> Does it make any difference ever?
> *The OAA has spoken once on this issue, why ask again?*


Because it is our right to ask...as many times as we want. I'll to you guys one thing. Stan is bang on here, and if any of you nay sayers sold X-bows, you would be right there with him.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

That part you highlighted Jay was a sarcastic question on my part. 
Bozone Mikey is bang on in my opinion. 
It seems like the OAA would rather throw obstacles in the way of competitors than allow people to shoot what they own. Joe Blow Bowhunter might want to shoot an OAA tourney, but when he realizes that he has to turn his pounds down and change his sight or buy new arrows, he usually decides to stay in his backyard or keep beating his friends in the local 3D's. History has taught us this over and over. Why have any equipment restrictions, save those that are purely for safety reasons of course. Let the person who puts the point in the x or 12 the most often win the match. Who cares what they shoot how fast or with whatever amount of pounds. The best will win regardless.


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## Summerfeldt (Oct 19, 2006)

cath8r said:


> That part you highlighted Jay was a sarcastic question on my part.
> Bozone Mikey is bang on in my opinion.
> It seems like the OAA would rather throw obstacles in the way of competitors than allow people to shoot what they own. Joe Blow Bowhunter might want to shoot an OAA tourney, but when he realizes that he has to turn his pounds down and change his sight or buy new arrows, he usually decides to stay in his backyard or keep beating his friends in the local 3D's. History has taught us this over and over. Why have any equipment restrictions, save those that are purely for safety reasons of course. Let the person who puts the point in the x or 12 the most often win the match. Who cares what they shoot how fast or with whatever amount of pounds. The best will win regardless.


Well said.:wink:

Grant


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2008)

cath8r said:


> That part you highlighted Jay was a sarcastic question on my part.
> Bozone Mikey is bang on in my opinion.
> It seems like the OAA would rather throw obstacles in the way of competitors than allow people to shoot what they own. Joe Blow Bowhunter might want to shoot an OAA tourney, but when he realizes that he has to turn his pounds down and change his sight or buy new arrows, he usually decides to stay in his backyard or keep beating his friends in the local 3D's. History has taught us this over and over. Why have any equipment restrictions, save those that are purely for safety reasons of course. Let the person who puts the point in the x or 12 the most often win the match. Who cares what they shoot how fast or with whatever amount of pounds. The best will win regardless.



Many seem to forget that the OAA is the membership, not some other entity that makes rules for the sake for making rules. As of this year we have the most open rule we have ever had it is almost a shoot what you bring. The speed rule is a safty rule aswell as a leveler for fair play. That is clouded a bit with the grs/lbs addition but that is what the membership wanted and got. The falisy is that if we change this or that, that it will bring the backyard shooters in to play, this has never happened and will continue to come up with excuse after excuse for not. That being said the rules we have are for the archers that do compete. The asked change for the crossbow class is for the people that do compete but find it hard to meet the requierments that are listed and since most crossbow exceed those it makes sence to move with the times after all if a 350fps IBO bow is safe under the IBO rules then a 350 fps crossbow is aswell.


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

cath8r said:


> It seems like the OAA would rather throw obstacles in the way of competitors than allow people to shoot what they own. Joe Blow Bowhunter might want to shoot an OAA tourney, but when he realizes that he has to turn his pounds down and change his sight or buy new arrows, he usually decides to stay in his backyard or keep beating his friends in the local 3D's. History has taught us this over and over. Why have any equipment restrictions, save those that are purely for safety reasons of course. Let the person who puts the point in the x or 12 the most often win the match. Who cares what they shoot how fast or with whatever amount of pounds. The best will win regardless.


Joe Bowhunter will use most any excuse as a reason not to shoot. If all he wants to do is shoot then the rules don't pose any obstacle unless it is for safety reasons. Just shoot what ya brung and let the organizers put you in the appropriate class.


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