# Nor'easter - WHAT A JOKE



## TxMom (Feb 23, 2009)

We have been to Local, State, National and International tournaments over the past 5 years, and never had an experience like the Nor'easter.
Every tournament has their issues, but this was beyond.

- Shooting Line looked like someone was drunk when they made it
- Shooters were facing the wrong direction when shooting
- When you stood in front of your target you were actually looking at a target, 2 bales away
- They stopped the tournament on the individual day to have an hour break when they were only shooting 72 arrows
- They refused to replace targets/cores that had been shot through, causing arrows to pass

I am sure there are other issues that I am not aware of!

They made a great impression on this first time attendee and their family, we will NOT be back.
Also, the feedback from other archers, "this is the best Nor'easter they have had so far", are you kidding me???

What a JOKE!~


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but I was on the phone with one of the archers and parents who were there and I heard none of these concerns from them. This is probably not the best place to air these concerns. Did you raise these issues with the tournament director? 

Why would you feel that posting this here would be the most appropriate way to handle it? And why is your profile not filled out so we know who you are?


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

Complaining about conditions sounds like a good way to handle poor scores.

*/Sarcasm*

On a side note, might we be able to know who's making these pretty harsh statements about the shoot? I can't remember a family at national shoots with the last name "Anonymous."


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

There were many troubles, a few of which were the standard 'can't avoid' sort , but as Joh said, probably not the best venue to vent.

I will ask that you please give it a chance and attend another shoot. SoCal is a well run event, as are many others. Don't let one bad experience turn you off, please.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

TxMom said:


> - Shooters were facing the wrong direction when shooting


Um, which direction were they suppose to shoot? Many years ago, after contacting the chairman of judges, I was told there is no set direction. Although, ideally it would be nice to shoot N-S, S-N, even if it's any other way, it's OK.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

titanium man said:


> Um, which direction were they suppose to shoot? Many years ago, after contacting the chairman of judges, I was told there is no set direction. Although, ideally it would be nice to shoot N-S, S-N, even if it's any other way, it's OK.


Well, if you check the rule book, chapter 7 prety clearly draws a picture that shows the shooting direction within 20 degrees either way of due north.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I was there for a bit today. I think the biggest issue was the optical illusion caused by the mow lines in the grass. As a spectator it was very disconcerting, but eventually my mind adjusted. From teammate reports, it seems like those competing quickly adjusted as well. Though for top level archers who miss on their first end because of the issue, I can see why there would be frustration.

Also in terms of shooting direction, they were facing about 10ish degrees south of east.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Reo Wilde tweeted a mild concern as well. 

https://twitter.com/reowilde/status/211943606762737664


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Reo Wilde tweeted a mild concern as well.
> 
> https://twitter.com/reowilde/status/211943606762737664


Ummm, ya, just a LITTLE concern...NOT.

I heard many quit the tournament early so they could make flights.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Wasn't there and have not been there, but it sure was confusing watching the twitter scores. They were constantly correcting themselves because of errors. Miranda didn't even make the top three after the the 72 arrow were done until some time later when they tweeted her score as the #1 archer. I for one appreciate the twitter of scores since I am not there and never near a computer in order to check, but this weekend was the first time I was completely confused about who was where. They kept apologizing for the scores being wrong. It's a new tournament and they are still learning. Give them a chance and I am sure it will get better.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Landed in AZ said:


> Wasn't there and have not been there, but it sure was confusing watching the twitter scores. They were constantly correcting themselves because of errors. Miranda didn't even make the top three after the the 72 arrow were done until some time later when they tweeted her score as the #1 archer. I for one appreciate the twitter of scores since I am not there and never near a computer in order to check, but this weekend was the first time I was completely confused about who was where. They kept apologizing for the scores being wrong. It's a new tournament and they are still learning. Give them a chance and I am sure it will get better.


Probably the resason for the tweeting difficulties was that there were no scorebords to follow, either end or match. Only the archers knew who was ahead or behind.


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## 3Three (Jan 24, 2009)

I personally know an archer who shot the wrong bale on his first arrow because of the misalignment of the targets. Proud to say that he rebounded and made it to the podium!


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

kshet26 said:


> I was there for a bit today. I think the biggest issue was the optical illusion caused by the mow lines in the grass. As a spectator it was very disconcerting, but eventually my mind adjusted. From teammate reports, it seems like those competing quickly adjusted as well. Though for top level archers who miss on their first end because of the issue, I can see why there would be frustration.
> 
> Also in terms of shooting direction, they were facing about 10ish degrees south of east.


I remember many shoots in the past where mow lines caused havoc...................no fun, when you're trying to adjust to weather, and all the other concerns of competition. Always had been fortunate on direction of shooting. It can be a pain in the morning sun.


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## kabnt2005 (Dec 31, 2010)

I've been to numerous baseball, volleyball, and archery tournaments in my lifetime as a competitor. I've never been to an event as poorly run as this year's Nor'Easter. I wasn't even shooting in it and it was just painful to watch, I can't even imagine what it was like to actually partake in the tournament. I wouldn't even know where to begin with my gripes about it honestly.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

kabnt2005 said:


> I wouldn't even know where to begin with my gripes about it honestly.


I say give them a list! If this is the first time running a USAT tournament and it sounds unanimous that is was a failure, then give them as much information as possible of why. When it comes to feedback, saying something is bad is the same as saying it was good. Got to give them reasons for either side for future improvement.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Huntmaster said:


> Well, if you check the rule book, chapter 7 prety clearly draws a picture that shows the shooting direction within 20 degrees either way of due north.


Scott, been told many, many times, that this rule only has to be applied to world championships and the olympics. It is a suggestion for all other events.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

TomB said:


> Scott, been told many, many times, that this rule only has to be applied to world championships and the olympics. It is a suggestion for all other events.


Tom, I checked, and you can too, but I couldn't find where it was only world Championships. The title of chapter 7 is "Field of Play - Target Rounds" in book 2, which discusses all types of shooting. I don't see how that applies to just World Champs.

http://worldarchery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA website/05 Rules/01 C&R Book/Book_2012/EN-Book2.pdf


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Matt Z said:


> I say give them a list! If this is the first time running a USAT tournament and it sounds unanimous that is was a failure, then give them as much information as possible of why. When it comes to feedback, saying something is bad is the same as saying it was good. Got to give them reasons for either side for future improvement.


I wouldn't complain about a tournament unless I was ready and willing to run it the next year :wink:


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> I wouldn't complain about a tournament unless I was ready and willing to run it the next year


That is the single greatest line I've read on this board....


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Matt Z said:


> I say give them a list! If this is the first time running a USAT tournament and it sounds unanimous that is was a failure, then give them as much information as possible of why. When it comes to feedback, saying something is bad is the same as saying it was good. Got to give them reasons for either side for future improvement.





HikerDave said:


> I wouldn't complain about a tournament unless I was ready and willing to run it the next year :wink:



Wow, I gave AT a few hours, and this thread is still at the top. Impressive.

I thought about the complaints, and having put on State and Regional Tournaments for the past 10+ years, I have compassion for anyone running shoots. 

I remember my first State Outdoor as President. I was promised the most beautiful venue you could ever imagine, and when my Sec/Treas. and I arrived on Friday for layout, it was a freshly bush hogged side field, off a golf course that was absolutely a pain to line and set up. Needless to say, I feel it hurt us a bit in perception, and it took us awhile to build our reputation for holding great shoots/venues. 

As Matt says..............give them plenty of feedback...................and next year, if they do it right...........compliment them. Proactive feedback is far more useful, as opposed to complete negativity. Everyone learns from their mistakes, and hopefully someone will carry through, and make next years event something people will be positively talking about.

Being an OCD perfectionist, especially managing things, I've noticed no matter how well you run a tournament, someone will always come up at the end, and give you a jab about something they felt wasn't right, it literally leaves you speechless as they walk away. I guess it's better off for them I don't comment.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Matt Z said:


> That is the single greatest line I've read on this board....


Sorry in advance for the off-topic diversion, but I have to point out that the line originates with the late story teller Utah Phillips, who tries to get out of the cooks job by baking up a Moose Turd Pie.

http://www.lyricszoo.com/utah-phillips/moose-turd-pie/


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Scott, I am dating my self but this was in the 2006 FITA rule book and was not carried forward in subsequent versions, even though when I challenged "why are we shooting south or west, etc." This is what I was quoted. Recommended is what I was instructed but in all but world championships and the Olympics.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> I wouldn't complain about a tournament unless I was ready and willing to run it the next year :wink:


Amen. 

People who make a habit out of complaining about things (easy to see by checking their previous posts here) rarely ever step up and offer to actually DO something useful. Guess that's just the way the world works. No matter the size of your bowl of wheaties, someone is going to want to pee in it just because they can. 

And I have zero respect for those who snipe from behind an empty profile on AT. This is such a small community, do they really think we won't figure out who it is? Seriously.

I agree that misoriented mow lines can be disconcerting, but so long as there are numbers on the bales and numbers on the shooting line, it's pretty much up to the archer to do their job and shoot the correct bale. I shot the wrong bale at the state outdoor event at 90 meters several years ago, and the only person I pointed fingers at was me. It's called taking responsibility.

John


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> It's called taking responsibility.


Wish everyone felt this way..............it would be a lot better world.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

TomB said:


> View attachment 1383533
> 
> 
> Scott, I am dating my self but this was in the 2006 FITA rule book and was not carried forward in subsequent versions, even though when I challenged "why are we shooting south or west, etc." This is what I was quoted. Recommended is what I was instructed but in all but world championships and the Olympics.


That is the exact page I am looking at in the current FITA rule book.

Page down to chapter 7 of the current rule book. It's there

And as I put in my other post, I see no orentation to any particular event. It's under feild layout, period.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I agree that misoriented mow lines can be disconcerting, but so long as there are numbers on the bales and numbers on the shooting line, it's pretty much up to the archer to do their job and shoot the correct bale. I shot the wrong bale at the state outdoor event at 90 meters several years ago, and the only person I pointed fingers at was me. It's called taking responsibility.


I think 99% of people at the event took it in stride which is what responsible and professional athletes should do. Like distraction training, it's a good reminder to pay attention to your game.


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## shootemstraight (Jan 13, 2007)

kshet26 said:


> I think 99% of people at the event took it in stride which is what responsible and professional athletes should do. Like distraction training, it's a good reminder to pay attention to your game.


I respectfully disagree. There was MUCH complaining and negative "comments" from archers and their coaches, including the professional athletes. I didn't hear anything that was disrepectful or that would make me think any less of those who said it, but there were comments and they were negative. Granted, most of the athletes dealt with the distractions well, but not necessarily "happily". And, appropriately, many said to make sure to give your opinion to the USAA.

I'm not looking to cause problems, and I don't know if "TxMOM" is just trying to cause trouble or not, but I also don't think it's fair to tell those who were there that they are making excuses for poor shooting or that they can't complain unless they want to run it next year. Really, leadership NEEDS to hear how this tournament ran so that they can improve it for future years. Membership of the USAA should not want this year's Nor'Easter to represent what we're all about. (there was much more than what was posted and the field orientation) And, yes, for the record, I helped run a national tournament a LONG time ago (JOAD Nationals, early 90's). Lastly, I totally agree that comments about this tournament, good or bad, need to be directed to the USAA. I think the AT can be used for respectful discussion, but I am going to choose to not air my specific complaints/direct observations on here!!!

On a positive note, the cadet recurves were assisted well and kept focused and informed by the leadership at that end of the field. There was also a particular judge that really did the best job possible with the situations that came up. Also, as most of you already know, the "top archers" are fantastic individuals and conducted themselves well, at all times.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

Wow lots of people *****ing. Step up to the line. Shoot. Repeat. Pretty simple. Let's not forget, the field was setup on the infield of a horse track, vehicles had to drive around the track to enter/exit the venue. Logistically they had 2 choices shoot se direction and have ample close parking or shoot NW and have a long walk and shoot towards a road. They chose the more logical of the 2 options. I am sure they had no choice how the grounds crew did or did not mow the lawn. The shooting lines WERE square to the target, the mowed lines made it look "off". The shooting field was a huge step up compared to last years venue. Lots of delays due to archers not entering their electronic scores on the handheld units. That is an archers fault not the organizer's. The entire ianseo system crashed for a long time on Sunday. There were certainly lots of areas for improvement including the electronic timers/ horn system. The whistles were all over the place. They are improving every year especially in the areas that they have control over. One suggestion though, the mens compound targets should not be the most blown out targets on the field. Shooting 50m with compounds at soft targets leads to LOTS of unnecessary delays to switch out butts of add another pillow to the back of the targets. The targets were more than adequate to stop 20-30lb recurves but not 60# compounds. The Womens targets were all band new too


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Amen.
> 
> People who make a habit out of complaining about things (easy to see by checking their previous posts here) rarely ever step up and offer to actually DO something useful. Guess that's just the way the world works. No matter the size of your bowl of wheaties, someone is going to want to pee in it just because they can.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, and I mean that; We have stepped up (both Miranda and I) to do something about it. We've both put on a few tournaments, but from our location, and as small as we are (read club of 2), the best we can hope to do is set examples. We've done just that at every tournament we've run or even helped in. We've been in this game for over 12 years together and always worked hard to make sure that the benifit was to the participants, from volenteering to hosting. We've worked to have the absolute best venues available with the best equipment available to us. We've made target numbers, lane numbers, bought targets, sound system, played DOS, judged, awarded, ran timing systems, and I even built my own electronic timing light system (most out of my own pocket btw), and at the end of the day got absolutely zero out of all of our efforts. End result - net loss. 

We made sure these things were done because we know what it's like to go to a tournament. We worked to create as close to world class events as possible because that is what people want and deserve. Sure, we didn't have the ideal equipment sometimes, but sometimes it's not all about that. It's about keeping things moving, keeping ppl informed, and making sure things are right for an archery event given what you have available. Heck, I would argue that '10 JOAD Nats was one of the nicest events held, and I'm proud to hang my name on that event (except the schedule sucked....that's a whole 'nother subject that was out of my hands though). I'll be proud to hang my name on World indoor trials in '09 as well, but luckily for me, the net loss went to the city of Dubuque.

I guess what I'm saying is that I've personally been there and done that. Got the t-shirt as they say. If you don't put the effort in, it shows. 

With all that, I'm not trying to implicate anything upon this tournament. I'll leave any discussions to the proper people to be held in the proper venue, neither of which include here or me. I'm just saying people do help, and some have earned their stripes.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> That is the exact page I am looking at in the current FITA rule book.
> 
> Page down to chapter 7 of the current rule book. It's there
> 
> And as I put in my other post, I see no orentation to any particular event. It's under feild layout, period.


This "rule" is almost universally ignored. Many world cups, world championships, etc have been shot on field facing directions other than north.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Xs24-7 said:


> This "rule" is almost universally ignored. Many world cups, world championships, etc have been shot on field facing directions other than north.


Well, that's kinda what I was after though in other thread. Since it is only a drawing, and not acutally put into words, is it a rule? Should it be considered a rule? Should the wording be changed or added in an effort to try to make events more uniform?

All I know is that the subject keeps coming up. Here, JOAD Nat's last year, and if I remember right, there have been others. Since it keeps coming up, should something more unifom be put in place? I don't have the answers, I'm just asking. To me it is a rule, so I go by it when I deal with the subject.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Huntmaster said:


> That is the exact page I am looking at in the current FITA rule book.
> 
> Page down to chapter 7 of the current rule book. It's there
> 
> And as I put in my other post, I see no orentation to any particular event. It's under feild layout, period.


That's not the exact page in the current book. The current book omits this part of the text that was in the 2006 version.









I am in agreement with you Scott. If it is universally ignored, then just leave the words, "recommended" in the text. By taking that out, it is a hard and fast rule, which many venues cannot comply with.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Pretty sure we weren't shooting either N or S in Athens. Looks to me like it's about 20 degrees West of due N. 

Of course, to be able to use Panathinaiko Stadium was such an honor that I don't think anyone cared, but still.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott, I certainly would not include you in any list of habitual complainers... 

Every event has things they could have done better. Our little JOAD club just hosted the TX State JOAD outdoor event, and although most folks told us we did ver well, we ourselves have a list of things we can improve for next time. Some were things we saw, but some were things that others helped us see. 

However, there is a HUGE difference in politely making helpful recommendations to the proper people and coming to AT with a blank profile to skewer the tournament staff. 

I'll be the first to admit that I've been dissapointed with the way some events were organized (most recently the upcoming JOAD Nationals fees and schedule) but at least folks can easily see who I am and I take full responsibility for my comments. 

John


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Pretty sure we weren't shooting either N or S in Athens. Looks to me like it's about 20 degrees West of due N.
> 
> Of course, to be able to use Panathinaiko Stadium was such an honor that I don't think anyone cared, but still.
> 
> John


Athens Panatinaiko on Google maps looks like something less than 20 degrees off to West from perfect orientation. 
London Lord's Cricket Ground looks like it will be much more than 20 degrees off to East ....


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## Blunt Arrow (Mar 2, 2006)

PS: This reminds me of all the heat the GOLD CUP had to take from people on line. Some who didn't even attend but had comments via "hear say"


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

Vittorio is correct. The archers on the field in London i.e. Lord's Cricket Ground will face East, North East at approximaely 60 degrees. A map of the stadium can be found on line.

Regards,


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

Just to chime in here.... I would have to say archery talk is an excellent place to complain as well as give praise to any event, equipment, etc. as all comments help us learn which is what this site is for. A thread like this not only helps the event organizers learn how to make the shoot better for next time, it helps others on here who may be considering holding an event.

The field was not oriented in the right direction however the sun moved out of your face by the official scoring ends so it was not a major problem. According to the page from the rule book posted on here it should not be just a recommendation as I would consider this a MAJOR competition. 

In addition to the comments already posted there were little things like only having toilets on either end of the field making it difficult for those in the middle to use between lanes. Luckily for the delays it worked out. 

The long lunch break was unnecessary And I didn't know of one person who was in favor of the break.

There were no leader boards. So not sure why electronic scoring was even that important.

I don't remember seeing signs for AB/CD to know who is shooting first.


Of course these things and others that people may have complained about are something we can easily deal with, but really such simple things should now be missed and USAT tournaments should be held to the strictest standards especially with the money we spend on registration and travel. Then again maybe we were just spoiled coming from the very well-run gator cup.


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