# Levi Morgan: No Back Tension on Release



## erisman20 (Dec 25, 2012)

Local Bow shop posted this video from the ATA show. Enjoy

Levi Morgan Release Tips: http://youtu.be/JbJO6u0mLJ8


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

Everyone trying to perfect that "back tension" release...might want to take a time out and listen to what the man has to say about his method of shooting "back tension".


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## jlsmith1000 (Nov 11, 2014)

Interesting that he says the more he grew to know the other pros the more he realized that most of them don't shoot using back tension. At least I thought I heard that.


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

Tagging this so I can watch it later.


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## Atascaderobow (Nov 4, 2014)

This clip will definately set up some lively discussion. Just goes to show that, like anything else we do, there is no one cookie cutter method that will fit everybody 100% across the board.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Levi's not scared of the back tension mob. I tried back tension and it works but its really difficult to repeat and also feels weird just using shoulder blades. I'm glad Levi stood up and said that because I use the same method or way of thinking he does and this validates it.


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

In another video, I think at last years ata show, he said to do things that work for you. Not what somebody tells you to do, but what works best for the individual. No right. No wrong.


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## TexasCanesFan (Jun 23, 2005)

Great bit of info from Levi.


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## brando75 (Sep 19, 2010)

Tagged for later


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## Tipsntails7 (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't really agree that he doesn't use back tension. I feel back tension has taking on this weird mythical meaning, where to me it means to maintain tension or your back and gain a suprise release. He even states multiple times that he uses a smooth pull and if he gets to comfortable he switches releases to keep him on his toes. That's what he is doing, he is eliminating anticipation. To me that's what back tension is, not rip the limb stops of and have your release hand catapult backward


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## swwishooter (May 12, 2014)

He is right tho. I've heard Reo say that he will rotate his hand also. Its true, and I've also been told that some will set it so that once they setup, it should be just a hair off the click. Different strokes for different folks.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

It sure is, and I like the part where he said that when he started the pro tour that come to find out no one shoots back tension approx. 48 sec in the video (or a lot of folks don't anymore) But there will be some folks on here that will dispute anything a pro says...



TexasCanesFan said:


> Great bit of info from Levi.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Your are right Watch Reo's you tube video, you can see him do it 



swwishooter said:


> He is right tho. I've heard Reo say that he will rotate his hand also. Its true, and I've also been told that some will set it so that once they setup, it should be just a hair off the click. Different strokes for different folks.


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## BadgerT (Mar 23, 2011)

straight2it said:


> Levi's not scared of the back tension mob. I tried back tension and it works but its really difficult to repeat and also feels weird just using shoulder blades. I'm glad Levi stood up and said that because I use the same method or way of thinking he does and this validates it.


Why would you need someone else to "validate" something that you know works for you. I truly am not trying to be smart, I just think too many of us find a method that works for us but because some pro doesn't endorse tube method we feel it must be some sort of taboo until others come out of the closet as using the same method.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Back Tension is a Myth.


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## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

sittingbull said:


> Everyone trying to perfect that "back tension" release...might want to take a time out and listen to what the man has to say about his method of shooting "back tension".


what levi describes is exactly what I found out last summer after years and years of trying to perfect back tension release.


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## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

Tipsntails7 said:


> I don't really agree that he doesn't use back tension. I feel back tension has taking on this weird mythical meaning, where to me it means to maintain tension or your back and gain a suprise release. He even states multiple times that he uses a smooth pull and if he gets to comfortable he switches releases to keep him on his toes. That's what he is doing, he is eliminating anticipation. To me that's what back tension is, not rip the limb stops of and have your release hand catapult backward


yea, he definetly said he doesn't really use it to fire his release, but he clealy describes how he uses it during the whole shot process.


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## Stuka1166 (Oct 19, 2006)

A great way of looking at a "mystery" technique to MANY of us !!


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

BadgerT said:


> Why would you need someone else to "validate" something that you know works for you. I truly am not trying to be smart, I just think too many of us find a method that works for us but because some pro doesn't endorse tube method we feel it must be some sort of taboo until others come out of the closet as using the same method.


I'm in a constant state of learning and sometimes I second guess myself even if its working because there is always room for improvement. I don't care about personal pride only true results so when a world champion reinforces what I've come to experience in my success of producing the most accurate shooting style, I am thankful and it does validate my training.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Padgett is going to love this video. Levi basically repeats what Padgett has been typing on here for some time now. Switching release. Manipulating releases.


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## BadgerT (Mar 23, 2011)

I see


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## coastiehunter2 (Jun 27, 2011)

That's why I call it a hinge but what ever works for ya


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

Tell me if you think I'm wrong about this. With a thumb release, wrist or a back spin type release. If you hold the release and don't move anything. hand or fingers, just freeze your whole hand and wrist. Then pull with only your back muscles, aka back tension. The release can't go off! Something has to change, something has to move your thumb or finger into the trigger, something has to rotate the release to set it off. You may trick yourself into thinking pulling with your back pulls your finger into the trigger thats only if you relax your grip or something. With a wrist strap I guarantee if you put your finger on the trigger and pull with all your might with your back the relationship between your finger and the trigger will stay the same, unless the strap slips on your wrist. The real "mystery" is that so many believe it. This is and has always been my belief in back tension.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

I draw then use back tension to the click then hand rotation to fire the release.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Back tension doesnt have anything to do with the release aid. It has to do with using your shoulder blades to rotate back until the shot fires off taking out hand movement as a major factor in the release. i prefer rotating the hand to release the shot. If you watch Reo, that's what he does. He keeps his bow arm motionless and smoothly rotates the shot off. You can find a balance between shoulder blade rotation and release rotation.


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## nimh (Nov 26, 2011)

He obviously doesnt come to talk to the pros on here. Obviously a huge mistake for him. Whoever he is...


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

With the advancements in bows and releases, it is a little different sport than it use to be. I use to shoot back tension and did pretty good at it but I don't shoot enough anymore to maintain the consistency.

The main thing is to use a surprise shot so as not anticipate it and collapse and disengage the back muscles. The back muscles is where you get your solid aim and consistency so back tension has to be maintain through the shot.

Plus the mind can only focus on one thing at a time so stay submerged in the aim and let the shot happen. I mainly use a scot mongoose wrist strap release so I just screw in a spring trigger and finger squeeze the shot.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

Tension is tension wherever it comes from, as long as it is repeatable!


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

They have all said many times in these videos that they all rotate the release to get it to fire. Go and get the Scott and TRU Ball videos on the release seminars from vegas a couple of years ago.

Physics is that the release must rotate around your middle finger to fire.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

with these higher letoff bows back tension is not the same


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

dtrkyman said:


> Tension is tension wherever it comes from, as long as it is repeatable!


Sometimes I use butt tension. When the pucker factor hits zero, I nail the trigger. It is repeatable but very stressful. lol


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

rockyw said:


> Tell me if you think I'm wrong about this. With a thumb release, wrist or a back spin type release. If you hold the release and don't move anything. hand or fingers, just freeze your whole hand and wrist. Then pull with only your back muscles, aka back tension. The release can't go off! Something has to change, something has to move your thumb or finger into the trigger, something has to rotate the release to set it off. You may trick yourself into thinking pulling with your back pulls your finger into the trigger thats only if you relax your grip or something. With a wrist strap I guarantee if you put your finger on the trigger and pull with all your might with your back the relationship between your finger and the trigger will stay the same, unless the strap slips on your wrist. The real "mystery" is that so many believe it. This is and has always been my belief in back tension.


Depends how you pull. Straight back. Nope. It's not going to happen. 

Tighten the muscle on the inside of the shoulder blade. Brings the elbow around, changes angle of release aid(hinge), boom it's gone.


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## Chadrap (Dec 2, 2013)

Just holding against the wall is back tension. So we all in a weird way shoot back tension. Now we're all pros. Awesome.


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## chromes-z7 (Dec 18, 2010)

Has anyone here read "core archery" by Larry wise? If Levi saying he's wrong?


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## ConflictDiamond (Jul 30, 2009)

I pull while "relaxing" the hand....hence the rotation. Worked great at ASA shoots, but was worried when hunting that "relaxing" wasn't going to be in the cards. But it works there as well. I use a TruBall Sweetspot 3 release for both target and hunting. Works fine for me, but each needs to sort out his/her own way.

G


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## sixstringer4528 (Feb 28, 2014)

nimh said:


> He obviously doesnt come to talk to the pros on here. Obviously a huge mistake for him. Whoever he is...


Lol


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## griffwar (Nov 15, 2012)

Tagged


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

chromes-z7 said:


> Has anyone here read "core archery" by Larry wise? If Levi saying he's wrong?


I don't think he's saying he is wrong. More that there's a way most use more successfully.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

great info


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

if he wasn't using backtension he wouldn't stay at full draw, he is using backtension, just explaining it in a different way


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

chromes-z7 said:


> Has anyone here read "core archery" by Larry wise? If Levi saying he's wrong?


No. Levi is saying whats right for him, everyone needs to find out what is right for them. Sounds more like Mr. Wise is saying everyone that don't shoot like he recommends is wrong.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

There has been numerous great shooters talk about how the fire a release and there have always been people on here that can't shoot anywhere close to as well as the great shooters that will say they are wrong. Just amazing.


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## coastiehunter2 (Jun 27, 2011)

Alot of these people haven't been under pressure pulling pulling trying to get the release to go off. Rotation always works the same.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Look up Daniel Boone's Thread on Pros and hinges/back tension. Whole lot of "cheating" the hinge there. And then cable stops and limbs stops are variables. Most need a little give to get back tension activated, so cables. Limps stops don't give and harder to activate back tension.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

TexasCanesFan said:


> Great bit of info from Levi.



This


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## General RE LEE (Nov 8, 2012)

nimh said:


> He obviously doesnt come to talk to the pros on here. Obviously a huge mistake for him. Whoever he is...


Lol


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Where is Ron at? He will be along shortly to tell Levi that he's doing it wrong. :wink:


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

fletched said:


> Sometimes I use butt tension. When the pucker factor hits zero, I nail the trigger. It is repeatable but very stressful. lol


:wink: 

On another note I definitely shoot a hinge better with cable stops as opposed to limb stops!


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## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

Tagged for later


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## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

rockyw said:


> Tell me if you think I'm wrong about this. With a thumb release, wrist or a back spin type release. If you hold the release and don't move anything. hand or fingers, just freeze your whole hand and wrist. Then pull with only your back muscles, aka back tension. The release can't go off! Something has to change, something has to move your thumb or finger into the trigger, something has to rotate the release to set it off. You may trick yourself into thinking pulling with your back pulls your finger into the trigger thats only if you relax your grip or something. With a wrist strap I guarantee if you put your finger on the trigger and pull with all your might with your back the relationship between your finger and the trigger will stay the same, unless the strap slips on your wrist. The real "mystery" is that so many believe it. This is and has always been my belief in back tension.


You can and I have done fired my wrist release using back tension, Griv even posts videos on how to setup and execute back tension using a wrist release.


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## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

chromes-z7 said:


> Has anyone here read "core archery" by Larry wise? If Levi saying he's wrong?


Levi said that larry wise is a boatload of knowledge when it comes to archery, But he said what works for him and when he became pro he realized a lot of the other pros were not using back tension to fire their releases!


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## foamhunter77 (Jul 3, 2007)

I think people over think back tension and take the name "back tension" to literally when using hinge style or non hinge release aids. They seem to pull to hard against the wall and get flyers left for rightys and get inconstant vertical accuracy, its hard to pull with consistent weight. When I shoot hinge I set into the click maintain that tension and then aim. My form starts to naturally fall rotating my hand just enough to release the arrow. This happens in a nano second so my form hasn't changed to effect arrow, its kind of relaxing into the aim. This is how I get the most repeatable consistency without over thinking it. (Good form most crucial)


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

A few here keep speaking of those that say Levi isn't doing it right. ?? Not seeing so far in this thread. 

I think we all agree there are many ways to fire a hinge. 
Back tension
Relax the index finger
Rotate with the middle finger, ring finger, pinky or a combination of any or all those or a combination of back tension and rotating the release with your hand. 

Some like to do it different ways. I don't think Levi was discrediting Larry wise. Just saying he doesn't do it the same way. No biggie. Chance probably doesn't do it the same way Levi does. Or the way reo does. 

Some coaches will tell you that back tension is the way to go. Some will basically tell you to forget you ever read the book by Larry.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

they score your arrows that land in the target.They don't ask you or rate you on how you got them there.If you occupy your mind with useless info well your just hurting yourself


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## primal-bow (Jun 5, 2008)

jlsmith1000 said:


> Interesting that he says the more he grew to know the other pros the more he realized that most of them don't shoot using back tension. At least I thought I heard that.


heard it to!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

I can completely relate when shooting a hinge or thumb release. Found it very difficult pulling through the shot with a hinge, just to much movement IMO. I find still loading your back muscles so your release arm stays relaxed as possible is critical IMO, then the rotation in the hand was key for me as well. 

Now when shooting a wrist index finger release, I still load my back muscles, keeping my release arm relaxed. When your draw length is correct and release set up is the right fit, I find it a lot easier to pull through the shot vs a hinge. Your index finger becomes like a stationary hook in the middle crease of your index finger, not your first crease. You have far less movement this way with those that have a tendency to punch the trigger. I feel the less movement on the back end as well as at the trigger the more consistent your shots will be. When all these things line up correctly it takes very little movement to pull through the shot and can be very consistent. This is probably why I still prefer a index finger release over a hinge or thumb style, far less movement when set up is right. For me it just equals better consistency shot after shot and the reason I still prefer them.


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## southgaboy (Jan 28, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> I can completely relate when shooting a hinge or thumb release. Found it very difficult pulling through the shot with a hinge, just to much movement IMO. I find still loading your back muscles so your release arm stays relaxed as possible is critical IMO, then the rotation in the hand was key for me as well.
> 
> Now when shooting a wrist index finger release, I still load my back muscles, keeping my release arm relaxed. When your draw length is correct and release set up is the right fit, I find it a lot easier to pull through the shot vs a hinge. Your index finger becomes like a stationary hook in the middle crease of your index finger, not your first crease. You have far less movement this way with those that have a tendency to punch the trigger. I feel the less movement on the back end as well as at the trigger the more consistent your shots will be. When all these things line up correctly it takes very little movement to pull through the shot and can be very consistent. This is probably why I still prefer a index finger release over a hinge or thumb style, far less movement when set up is right. For me it just equals better consistency shot after shot and the reason I still prefer them.



^^^ exactly the way I do it.


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## General RE LEE (Nov 8, 2012)

I could barely hear what he's saying in the video on the iPad. Anyone else have trouble with the audio.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

General RE LEE said:


> I could barely hear what he's saying in the video on the iPad. Anyone else have trouble with the audio.


I did. I put headphones in and heard it good


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## roughneck1 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tagged


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## Msokol13 (Jul 24, 2005)

Nice....just goes to show you there isn't always a "right" or "wrong" way.

I have limited exposure to a hinge but when I did, trying to use back muscles only was impossible so I just would rotate my hand like Levi says. I imagine to use back tension only I would need to shorten my draw a good inch. I could never get the hinge to "fire" without over extending my arm


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## slim9300 (Dec 4, 2004)

General RE LEE said:


> I could barely hear what he's saying in the video on the iPad. Anyone else have trouble with the audio.


The volume is low. It was pretty quiet on my iPhone. I had to turn is all the way up and get close to the phone.

Thanks for posting the video. I agree with those saying that he does use back tension, I just feel he isn't focusing on it during the shot. Nor is his back tension as severe as many feel is necessary (myself included). I'm looking forward to getting my bows back so I can't play around with my form this year. This video just reminds me why I love this sport so much.


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## Trigg (Oct 16, 2013)

I was under the impression that he was using the backspin release that he developed. You know the one with his name on it. The one that cost more money. If he does not use it then why not promote it that way. I made it but don't use it.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

So he hunts with a hinge? What specific releases like that are viable for hunting? Which brands and models?


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## bucco921 (Jan 2, 2012)

mitchell said:


> So he hunts with a hinge? What specific releases like that are viable for hunting? Which brands and models?


Any hinge is a viable option. He uses a Scott Longhorn on his hunting show.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Trigg said:


> I was under the impression that he was using the backspin release that he developed. You know the one with his name on it. The one that cost more money. If he does not use it then why not promote it that way. I made it but don't use it.


Why do you think he's not using it? It was in his hand in the video.


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## doulos (Apr 2, 2006)

sean1 said:


> Depends how you pull. Straight back. Nope. It's not going to happen.
> 
> Tighten the muscle on the inside of the shoulder blade. Brings the elbow around, changes angle of release aid(hinge), boom it's gone.


I actually heard this explained once by a very knowledgeable and experienced archer. His take is that your elbow moves down and more behind you when using back tension. Its impossible to pull straight back whiteout your elbow doing that. Our anatomy won't let it happen. I know if i just bring my elbow around more inline and down my thumb trigger goes off unexpectedly every time. And I am not a experienced handheld release guy by any means. I can get my thumb trigger to go off many different ways. Rotating it a bit works also. I don't know what is correct. And I still don't know whats best for me yet either. But its impossible to pull straight back and stop your elbow from coming around and down.
As far as no pros using back tension. Ive seen videos of Dan Macarthy disputing that when he describes his shot execution. He says he relaxes his hand to load the trigger and then pulls through. Hers the video-http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1982492

and then heres Chance Beaubouef explaining his shot --totally different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx4PiGxoJDg
Tommy Gomez--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFAUaezgBkA&spfreload=10
Reo Wilde---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpI1KyQcrpQ&spfreload=10


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

doulos said:


> I actually heard this explained once by a very knowledgeable and experienced archer. His take is that your elbow moves down and more behind you when using back tension. Its impossible to pull straight back whiteout your elbow doing that. Our anatomy won't let it happen. I know if i just bring my elbow around more inline and down my thumb trigger goes off unexpectedly every time. And I am not a experienced handheld release guy by any means. I can get my thumb trigger to go off many different ways. Rotating it a bit works also. I don't know what is correct. And I still don't know whats best for me yet either. But its impossible to pull straight back and stop your elbow from coming around and down.
> As far as no pros using back tension. Ive seen videos of Dan Macarthy disputing that when he describes his shot execution.


Probably the same guy I heard it from. I am also trying to figure out what is best for me. Back tension is winning at the moment. I anticipate too much if I command the release.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

dw'struth said:


> Why do you think he's not using it? It was in his hand in the video.


Watch all the bow junky videos...and i seen him in london and metropolis using his pro advantage.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Atascaderobow said:


> This clip will definately set up some lively discussion. Just goes to show that, like anything else we do, there is no one cookie cutter method that will fit everybody 100% across the board.


Hello
Well said X2 [ Later


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## CRISSMAN6903 (Mar 11, 2011)

Very cool video. Now will all the guys that say if you don't fire a hinge using back tension then you're wrong and will never be a good Archer go away? It truly is what works for you and hearing Levi say this validates that. I can't shoot a hinge using back tension but am very good while using it with hand manipulation.


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## acesup (Jul 4, 2008)

I like how he says "there's no way to repeat that". When he's talking about firing the shot with bt.


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## Lucy dog (Sep 15, 2014)

I like when he said how is hard to keep everything in a straight line arm ,release ,arrow,using back tension.
And I'm a index release shooter using a hooked finger pull through.
Good video


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## doulos (Apr 2, 2006)

I know Macarthy is shooting a thumb trigger in his video and the other guys are using hinges. So my question is ---is rotation a must with a hinge?

Heres Griv explaining it---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8glZiI9fUw
everyone seems to be a little different


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

BowHuntnKY said:


> Watch all the bow junky videos...and i seen him in london and metropolis using his pro advantage.


I see. He said that he likes to mix it up, but there has to be some pressure on him to use the release with his name on it. Thanks.


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## weave (Oct 17, 2002)

Tag


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

doulos said:


> I know Macarthy is shooting a thumb trigger in his video and the other guys are using hinges. So my question is ---is rotation a must with a hinge?
> 
> Heres Griv explaining it---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8glZiI9fUw
> everyone seems to be a little different


Yes. In griv's video he says to stretch or relax the hand. When your hand relaxes, your index finger will relax if you will at a faster rate. So if that happens, the release rotates thus firing.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

I may just give back tension release a try again


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## CRISSMAN6903 (Mar 11, 2011)

dw'struth said:


> I see. He said that he likes to mix it up, but there has to be some pressure on him to use the release with his name on it. Thanks.


He's never used it. It's only the Levi Morgan edition bc it's green. Other than that it's all marketing hype.


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## KnottyPine (Nov 3, 2014)

Tag


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

sean1 said:


> In another video, I think at last years ata show, he said to do things that work for you. Not what somebody tells you to do, but what works best for the individual. No right. No wrong.


yep. The only wrong thing is to not be consistent.


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

A hinge type release HAS to rotate to fire. It's up to the shooter to discover his way to do that and do it consistently.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

if you guys ever get the chance, SPEND THE MONEY and go see MJ Rogers for a couple hours


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

Tagged


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## 5ringking (May 25, 2005)

Wait wait... im making some more popcorn so I can keep up with all the new posts


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## Army3244 (Sep 1, 2014)

Here's what I've found with a thumb style release. At first I did the back tension thing. Draw, anchor, pull into the wall and fire. This does work but, as Levi stated there's a lot of movement when your trying to pull pull pull into the wall and with this movement comes pin movement as well. So this got me thinking, he mention rotation with a hinge. I feel there's got to be a way to use a minimum amount your back muscles to keep the bow string against the back wall or string stop if you will. So with a hinge there's rotation of the release and with a thumb trigger I tried pulling with the Thumb and the ring finger as Padgett mention in his articles and it works even better but, still more movement than I would like to see with my pin. So I mess around with different ways to fire with back tension and without. Here's what works for me, I draw, anchor, aim, and still using Padgett's thumb firing engine technique I slowly relax the fingers on the release while my thumb is stationary on the barrel letting the release slide away if you will but, not to the point of letting the release go but, just enough to engage the trigger and the arrow is gone. All this with keeping my back muscles with just enough pressure on them without pulling too hard into the wall but, just enough to keep the string where it needs to be at full draw. Not the same as a hinge style release using rotation but, still a different way of manipulating the release to get it to fire with less pin movement. I'm not sure if this is what he meant with his method of firing engine or not but, it works great. No matter what, your back muscles will be in use but, to what extent and how much tension applied to them is totally the preference of the shooter.


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## 4.6L GT (Jan 13, 2014)

First time I have heard a pro admit to that. Very cool


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

wolf44 said:


> if you guys ever get the chance, SPEND THE MONEY and go see MJ Rogers for a couple hours


What way does he teach?


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## ARCHERYXPERT (Jan 29, 2004)

I like to use back tension to get the solid hold on the target. Then start my hand rotation with my Carter Just cuz ever so slightly. That has been my method for year. Levi's method sounds very similar to mine. Good to know I'm not totally screwing it up.


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## sixstringer4528 (Feb 28, 2014)

So how do you get a suprise shot with a trigger/wrist release? Apparently there is no way to rotate the wrist release that I'm aware of and according to the pros using back tension causes false alignment leading to inconsistent shooting.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

use back tension to hold on target, relax your hand to make the shot(very very simplified explanation)


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## mlima5 (Oct 28, 2013)

Commenting to find later


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## Z-Rider (Jul 23, 2007)

goofy2788 said:


> Tagging this so I can watch it later.


Same here


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## hitnmiss (Jun 10, 2014)

tagged


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## General RE LEE (Nov 8, 2012)

More power to the folks that hunt with a hinge. Can't bring myself to do it. That's what my thumb trigger is for.


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## drockw (Sep 3, 2008)

doulos said:


> I know Macarthy is shooting a thumb trigger in his video and the other guys are using hinges. So my question is ---is rotation a must with a hinge?
> 
> Heres Griv explaining it---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8glZiI9fUw
> everyone seems to be a little different


I was at the seminar posted by the OP, and was also at Tru Ball's two seminars the days before this one. If you can find the video from TB's day 2 seminar, Dan explains how he executes his release, and all of the rest of the release info that you wanna know from him. 

If you watch the vid posted by the OP, Levi also explains how he uses his thumb release.


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## drockw (Sep 3, 2008)

4.6L GT said:


> First time I have heard a pro admit to that. Very cool


That was cool, but what was also cool was to hear them all talk about being nervous and how they cope with it.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

drockw said:


> That was cool, but what was also cool was to hear them all talk about being nervous and how they cope with it.


How was that ?? I'd like to see that video


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## Wood (Aug 3, 2006)

I kinda like On Target's way. (I use the finger tension method.) Only thing that moves is my trigger finger. LOL I load the tension (have about 1/4" travel) then squeeze through. Only thing is, i now use the loop hook version of the Winn release.


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## Ghostbuck (Nov 8, 2003)

fletched said:


> Sometimes I use butt tension. When the pucker factor hits zero, I nail the trigger. It is repeatable but very stressful. lol


Lol!!! Hilarious!!


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## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

Very cool!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

It is awesome how Levi and others share there true knowledge and with honesty. I once posted a thread with three top well known pro said about how the shot there releases. It went for ever because no many just cant accept the truth. It just not that hard!
DB


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## sierra13 (Jun 12, 2012)

Tagged


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

From what I've seen, many many many shooters indeed don't use backtension. They just draw into the wall and alter their hand, some flat out punch, but some do... Or at least, at the European national level.

You can actually see it in the way a shooter sets up, and the give away: When the elbow sends the hand & release flying back and UP. The guys (like me) that shoot with the release going straight back, just go to a certain level of back tension and then move their hands (I let go of my index while putting tension on my ring finger). This results in a release hand shooting backwards, but it looks like a "from the shoulder" kind of movement.

One shop I visited has a previous national champ helping out as bow technician. For him, it really just is "pulling" through the elbow on the release to set it off. He would trow remarks at me that I was abusing the hinge & thumb releases I had with me, that I was doing it wrong. Might be so, but my anatomy doesn't really allow me for a clean release by just pulling my elbow back. I could try and learn it I guess, but I'd be shooting like I would with my eyes closed in the wind.


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## KimberTac1911 (Feb 27, 2012)

That's a good video. Personally get better groups if I apply pressure with pinky slowly. Who cares how you fire it. I believe chance states when moving release you are still using back tension due to holding bow back


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Unicron said:


> From what I've seen, many many many shooters indeed don't use backtension. They just draw into the wall and alter their hand, some flat out punch, but some do... Or at least, at the European national level.


I think most do. there is absolutely nothing wrong with a command shot. you just need to practice executing it without flinching other muscles at the same time. lunging at the trigger is what causes the problem.

use a release with a nice crisp break and a heavy trigger spring.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

I too find this very interesting but seems to go against the mentality of many ArcheryTalk pros. 

If I ever decide to try a back tension release I'll sure give that a try. 


Skeet.


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## force1 (Jul 14, 2004)

Chance said before he just relaxes his hand till it goes offand look at his 20 yrd targets


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

force1 said:


> Chance said before he just relaxes his hand till it goes offand look at his 20 yrd targets


Well that is similar to what Levi does I guess, minus that he is relaxing rather than rotating...

But what is the difference really? I for one relax one finger and "squeeze" the other, is that rotating (well the release does) is that relaxing (sort of?)... I do keep on pulling, but I cannot do nothing with my hand and just pull. So am I shooting backtension?


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## jgss2 (Dec 14, 2004)

I shoot a thumb. I use one of Padgett's engines but I have modified it to work for me. I draw and hold into the wall with my back. I then wrap my thumb deep on the trigger. I pull with a hard thumb and ring finger while trying to relax and keep my pointer and index finger neutral. It usually works fairly well. If I try to pull with back tension only I tense up and not only will my release not fire reliably, my pin goes nuts after a short time!


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## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

Unicron said:


> Well that is similar to what Levi does I guess, minus that he is relaxing rather than rotating...
> 
> But what is the difference really? I for one relax one finger and "squeeze" the other, is that rotating (well the release does) is that relaxing (sort of?)... I do keep on pulling, but I cannot do nothing with my hand and just pull. So am I shooting backtension?


Not meant to offend, but who cares if that's "shooting backtension?" Use whatever method you can that makes a consistent clean release and let the results tell you if it's right or wrong. I think that's probably the best thing I've learned from the pros. Do what works for you and who cares if it works or doesn't work for anyone else.


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

rockyw said:


> Tell me if you think I'm wrong about this. With a thumb release, wrist or a back spin type release. If you hold the release and don't move anything. hand or fingers, just freeze your whole hand and wrist. Then pull with only your back muscles, aka back tension. The release can't go off! Something has to change, something has to move your thumb or finger into the trigger, something has to rotate the release to set it off. You may trick yourself into thinking pulling with your back pulls your finger into the trigger thats only if you relax your grip or something. With a wrist strap I guarantee if you put your finger on the trigger and pull with all your might with your back the relationship between your finger and the trigger will stay the same, unless the strap slips on your wrist. The real "mystery" is that so many believe it. This is and has always been my belief in back tension.


I agree and have said this many times. True "back tension" firing of a release is impossible.


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## djm029 (Nov 5, 2012)

Interesting video. Makes me realize just keep it simple and keep it consistent. I like is straight line idea as it makes complete sense


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## djm029 (Nov 5, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> It is awesome how Levi and others share there true knowledge and with honesty. I once posted a thread with three top well known pro said about how the shot there releases. It went for ever because no many just cant accept the truth. It just not that hard!
> DB


Agreed


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## lee martin (Feb 1, 2005)

All across the country, people this morning are out shooting with their mind at rest. Cant wait to see some 20 yard groups posted tonight!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I saw this video the first day it was released and there is also one with him and chance talking together that I remember being even better, to me this was what gave me the confidence to make a difference here at archery talk. The first few years I was here if you even mentioned any finger movement and talked about anything other than pure back tension you were hounded by many members that you were cheating or cranking the hinge.

I actually approached levi on the course this season and said thanks, I told him that I was coaching hundreds of people and that little things like his video had really helped me. Levi said that he had seem me on archery talk before He talked to me about the same stuff for a few minutes, we were on the team shoot asa ranges judging targets and I always stay after the team shoot and judge with the pro shooters.

I can shoot with pure back tension and it is a nice way to shoot and worth learning but I do prefer another method that gives me much better scoring and daily shooting.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I remember the days when you'd be burned at the stake for stating anything other than pure back tension too. I kept quiet and off to the side with all of that. It was when I was first learning with a hinge and I pretty much had come to the same conclusion as what Levi says in the video about pulling your body out of alignment to use pure back tension to execute. The only problem at that point, was just learning how to execute with my hand and fingers doing the rotation and how to set up the hinge for this style of shooting. Being right on the edge of things, when you first started your articles on setting up the hinge and shooting with one, that got me to the next part of where I was going a lot easier and quicker. It's nice to see where things have evolved from there and cool that you got to talk with Levi and he had read some of your stuff as well!


Padgett said:


> I saw this video the first day it was released and there is also one with him and chance talking together that I remember being even better, to me this was what gave me the confidence to make a difference here at archery talk. The first few years I was here if you even mentioned any finger movement and talked about anything other than pure back tension you were hounded by many members that you were cheating or cranking the hinge.
> 
> I actually approached levi on the course this season and said thanks, I told him that I was coaching hundreds of people and that little things like his video had really helped me. Levi said that he had seem me on archery talk before He talked to me about the same stuff for a few minutes, we were on the team shoot asa ranges judging targets and I always stay after the team shoot and judge with the pro shooters.
> 
> I can shoot with pure back tension and it is a nice way to shoot and worth learning but I do prefer another method that gives me much better scoring and daily shooting.


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## stork64 (Sep 11, 2010)

Hey, I'm not doing it as wrong as I thought!


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

The average guy can't manipulate a hinge like Levi and others can. Just like the average guy who slaps the trigger on an index finger release ss a puncher and Tim Gillingham is a command shooter. 

IF one has the ability to actively rotate a release or squeeze a trigger there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is most simply can't shoot that way CALMLY. That is just another thing that separates PROs from JOEs.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

For me true back tension died when I got a bow with a solid back wall.


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## Mathewsman275 (Feb 2, 2005)

Tagged


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

Interesting


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Don't think for one minute that levi is just rotating his release, when you watch him shoot and look very close you will see very little if anything going on. 

The key here is getting rid of that feeling that pure back tension is the only method and being stuck suffering trying to do it when you don't have a coach to get you there, then secondly once you become proficient at back tension realizing that there are even better options out there that can produce even better shooting.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of my biggest issues with most of the guys that preach one method is that they aren't proficient at anything but that one method and in many instances have never even attempted some of the methods they bash.

Once you spend the time to become proficient at a variety of methods then they each end up having a unique personality and then you can pick your method based on the one that gives you the best results. For me one of the hardest things to overcome was just realizing that firing the hinge is just a job to be done and it has one goal and that goal is to cleanly send the arrow to the target. Well they can all do that but depending on your mental approach and form and physical make up one of them is probably going to really stand out as your dominant choice.

Right now on archery talk is a great time to approach a guy like me and I can give you a look into a variety of these methods and then it is up to you to do the training and find the one that gives you some sweet shooting.


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## wgvtheduke (Jan 18, 2008)

for later....


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Don't think for one minute that levi is just rotating his release, when you watch him shoot and look very close you will see very little if anything going on.
> 
> The key here is getting rid of that feeling that pure back tension is the only method and being stuck suffering trying to do it when you don't have a coach to get you there, then secondly once you become proficient at back tension realizing that there are even better options out there that can produce even better shooting.


I don't think anyone said Levi "just" rotates his release BUT he most certainly does. There is a heck of a lot going on for a guy to be that dominant and how he activates his release is only a small portion of it....


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

You heard here first folks at the end of the day you have to figure out what works best for you or at least that's what I got out of it


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> if he wasn't using back tension he wouldn't stay at full draw,


Thats a true statement. I'm just saying that staying at full draw and setting the release off is two different things.


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

rockyw said:


> Thats a true statement. I'm just saying that staying at full draw and setting the release off is two different things.


Yes. Staying at full draw with back tension is different than firing the release with back tension. I've even had it defined differently between some coaches. With out a doubt this may be one of the most disputed topics in archery.


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## General RE LEE (Nov 8, 2012)

Sometimes Leviticus makes an appearance on threads like this.

LEVITICUS SHOW YOURSELF!!! We need wisdom!


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Sometimes Leviticus makes an appearance on threads like this.


]

Levitacus?? Sounds like a Roman God???


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I find this thread interesting that we would quip over Levi's comments to be correct, incorrect, validating, and even liberating as to his "style" of activating a release. This is (to me) asking Jeff Gordon how to drive a car. Even if he detailed it piece by piece, he would still leave out the most important difference between them and us....mental focus.

So, many of you will grab your bows and practice this over and over...constantly saying in your brain, "rotate slowly, loosen pinky, tighten ring finger, relax hand, tighten grip, rotate slow, relax the..BOOM. Oh crap, where was the pin?"

Meanwhile Levi draws, holds, and is thinking "I hope Sam made those reservations because after I smoke this 12 and win this thing I'll be ready to eat." And he does.

Think about it folks. Cause they don't. They KNOW that they will hit the 12, regardless of how they "manipulated" the release.


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## loveha (Mar 11, 2014)

rockyw said:


> ]
> 
> Levitacus?? Sounds like a Roman God???


I would not say he is a Roman God, but he is at least an archery God.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Meanwhile Levi draws, holds, and is thinking "I hope Sam made those reservations because after I smoke this 12 and win this thing I'll be ready to eat." And he does.
> 
> Think about it folks. Cause they don't. They KNOW that they will hit the 12, regardless of how they "manipulated" the release.


I agree 110%. No matter how I practice I know I will never shoot like Levi.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

rattlinman said:


> I find this thread interesting that we would quip over Levi's comments to be correct, incorrect, validating, and even liberating as to his "style" of activating a release. This is (to me) asking Jeff Gordon how to drive a car. Even if he detailed it piece by piece, he would still leave out the most important difference between them and us....mental focus.
> 
> So, many of you will grab your bows and practice this over and over...constantly saying in your brain, "rotate slowly, loosen pinky, tighten ring finger, relax hand, tighten grip, rotate slow, relax the..BOOM. Oh crap, where was the pin?"
> 
> ...


Thank you. I tried to say something like this but you did much better.


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## erisman20 (Dec 25, 2012)

As archery seasons are starting up, I'm going to give this a friendly bump.


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## nontypical (Jan 4, 2004)

I have been in rooms at the ATA where more than just Levi has given the same basic opinion. You can't set off a release by just pulling harder, with your back or any other method. There has to be some form of rotation or the release will not fire.


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## griffwar (Nov 15, 2012)

erisman20 said:


> As archery seasons are starting up, I'm going to give this a friendly bump.


Stir the pot again! LOL


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't mean to stir the pot, but I wonder how many here actually realize, you cannot draw and hold a bow, without back tension, to a large degree. it is the main musculature in function, when drawing and holding it at full draw. the human body cannot do the action of drawing and holding a bow, without using back tension
people say they don't use back tension,..... if they don't,.... they are not shooting a bow !.
what Levi is saying , is that he doesn't use back tension to execute his release process. but I guarantee you, he uses back tension as he is using whatever release method he uses, it's just not the muscular process that runs his release execution.
I haven't seen the video, and don't care to, because it doesn't matter to me what method he uses. I assume he uses some type of now popular, "finger manipulation engine" to execute his release process. fine and dandy,.....that's what he likes. that said, I guarantee he uses back tension when shooting.


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## griffwar (Nov 15, 2012)

ron w said:


> I don't mean to stir the pot, but I wonder how many here actually realize, you cannot draw and hold a bow, without back tension, to a large degree. it is the main musculature in function, when drawing and holding it at full draw. the human body cannot do the action of drawing and holding a bow, without using back tension
> people say they don't use back tension,..... if they don't,.... they are not shooting a bow !.
> what Levi is saying , is that he doesn't use back tension to execute his release process. but I guarantee you, he uses back tension as he is using whatever release method he uses, it's just not the muscular process that runs his release execution.
> I haven't seen the video, and don't care to, because it doesn't matter to me what method he uses. I assume he uses some type of now popular, "finger manipulation engine" to execute his release process. fine and dandy,.....that's what he likes. that said, I guarantee he uses back tension when shooting.


Of course people pull and hold their bow with back tension that's a no-brainer, he just don't release using back tension. There has to be some form of rotation to fire the release, be it by slowly squeezing your fingers are relaxing them is all he was saying.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

thank god this again. I was hoping we wouldn't get to a full 30 days with out bringing this conversation turd back to surface.
who cares shoot it how you want.


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## bstring (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't know. It's kinda fun to see how many different way people here will try to negate what someone like the shooter of the year several times over says about using a release. Some even inferring that he's wrong. And of course those people have no national titles to their name.


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## widow maker 223 (Sep 7, 2011)

I think he tightens his right but cheek to cause his whole right side to tense up, thus causing his arm to pull back and down causing a minute amount of rotation.


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## griffwar (Nov 15, 2012)

widow maker 223 said:


> i think he tightens his right but cheek to cause his whole right side to tense up, thus causing his arm to pull back and down causing a minute amount of rotation.


lol


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## Keith t (Oct 31, 2008)

I tried doing his method, pulling to the stop and rotating. I found it more difficult than it sounds.
I want to use this method I just need to keep working g at it.


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## KimberTac1911 (Feb 27, 2012)

Keith t said:


> I tried doing his method, pulling to the stop and rotating. I found it more difficult than it sounds.
> I want to use this method I just need to keep working g at it.


I use this method in the wind and i believe padgett has an article like it. I pull into wall like normal. I stay relaxed when drawing but i dont relax index finger at all. Now just start to slowly increase pinky pressure until shot fires


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

All I know is you don't have to shoot with back tension to be a good shot.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

rattlinman said:


> I find this thread interesting that we would quip over Levi's comments to be correct, incorrect, validating, and even liberating as to his "style" of activating a release. This is (to me) asking Jeff Gordon how to drive a car. Even if he detailed it piece by piece, he would still leave out the most important difference between them and us....mental focus.
> 
> So, many of you will grab your bows and practice this over and over...constantly saying in your brain, "rotate slowly, loosen pinky, tighten ring finger, relax hand, tighten grip, rotate slow, relax the..BOOM. Oh crap, where was the pin?"
> 
> ...


 that has got to be the best post I've seen on this forum, in a long, long while !......it sums it up perfectly !. although I prefer to use the back tension method, I have never claimed it to be the "only way,"..... just "my preferred way"..... and the way I think is "right".


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