# Growing the ASA K50 class



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

A few days ago I had a convo with a K50 shooter about how to grow the class. These guys shoot the pro range, and even though its known yardage, It takes alot of talent to win these known classes. A couple things to consider before people start ranting about "well its known"..

Shooting a known class determines whos a better archer, whos the most consistent through the shot process etc. The playing field in K50 or K45 is 100% equal, simply because the yardage is KNOWN. So the top shooters at the end of each tournament are the shooters who were the most consistent with their shot throughout the weekend.

Open Pro, again they all shoot the same range. These guys have to be able to judge and shoot. While Im NOT discrediting levi AT ALL because I have ALOT of respect for that guy. Hes not only a great archer, But hes a great person to have in our sport. The same can be said for alot of the guys on the Pro range. But Im gonna use Levi as an example.

Levi is very consistent, and when pushed or challenged, it seems like he uses the pressure to his advantage. Most of the time in 3D, levi comes out of top when the pressure is on, thats why I believe he handles the pressure so well. Its a drive to him.

But lets say....John doe, has the same ability as Levi does as far as shooting. He just doesnt do well with the yardage. If these guys were on the same playing field, whos to say John Doe couldnt win?
So are we separating archers as judging skills, OR are we separating them as archers? 

So, back to the K50 class, these guys like I said are on the same playing field. But there is NO money in it...Why? They are showing what their equipment can do when shot consistent, and doing so on a long range. Its not about judging here, The best shooter shines in this class, NOT the best yardage judge. Yet the arent recognized.

Im not trying to get all classes turned to known, and before this gets into a pissing match, Im not here to do that either. Im just looking for reasons why K50 isnt recognized like it should be. Iv heard it called a pro class, Iv heard it called a semi-pro class. What do you feel like it should fall under?

The game was built to help you better your bowhunting skills, But times has changed and 99% of the hunters today use a rangefinder while hunting. So why is the game still built on yardage? Does anyone see where Im goin with this?

Bowjunky has beat it to death about Mathews, PSE, and hoyt being sucked dry from contingency. I can see that being true. Cara Fernadez won ft benning, she stood on the podium with NO check from hoyt....Gillingham, McCarthy, Evans, several of those guys got checks last year that was, well....."small". Not knocking it because ANYTHING is better than nothing.


This is not to rub anyone the wrong way, this is a discussion.


----------



## Ky*Bowhunter (Aug 18, 2013)

3D archery is not about being the most consistant archer. Its about knowing your game, what you can do, what your limits are, and course management. Even in known yardage you still have to know your limits and know what you can get and what you cant. I know alot of people i shoot with dont like known yardage because they cant hold with "dot shooters' and unkown yardage levels the playing field. 3D is a game its not who shoots the best its who plays the game the best. Sometimes the best shooter wins and sometimes they dont. Im not knocking any known 50 pros because theyre awesome shooters but it just amazes me at the scores these pros are posting on a 50yd unkown course.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> 3D archery is not about being the most consistant archer. Its about knowing your game, what you can do, what your limits are, and course management. Even in known yardage you still have to know your limits and know what you can get and what you cant. I know alot of people i shoot with dont like known yardage because they cant hold with "dot shooters' and unkown yardage levels the playing field. 3D is a game its not who shoots the best its who plays the game the best. Sometimes the best shooter wins and sometimes they dont. Im not knocking any known 50 pros because theyre awesome shooters but it just amazes me at the scores these pros are posting on a 50yd unkown course.


I can agree with most of that. 3D is a game, I feel like having the targets at home to look at and study separates alot of these unknown shooters. 

BUT, learning target definition, AND detail of the targets/size IS NOT judging yardage IMO. You dont look at a deer and say, OK I can see that hair, that cant be farther than 30 yards. Thats the point Im getting at. The pros will tell you they "judge" off of detail, definition, and target size. So thats a advantage over anyone who doesnt have targets.

Course management is another part of the game you spoke of, Thats a key part of the whole game. Knowing when you can and cant aim for a 12. 

Now, How can we GROW K50? Why do alot of shooters that win out of K45, go to a different class? Is K50 intimidating?


----------



## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

i personally shot open B last year for first time and did not realize that half the course was Known. i did not like the Known part it was kinda boring to me.
part of shooting 3D to me is the full game guessing the yardage and holding on the right spot.good or bad let it fly. its much more rewarding to me to shoot a good score that way.im not saying its boring because im such a great shooter that is no where near the truth. i just turned in a much higher score than i would have normally it turned me into a spot shooter more than a 3D shooter IMO.


----------



## buckbuster31 (Dec 3, 2009)

I think it is the price of k50 that scAres people to other classes


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

K50 is a tough class most archers dont want to shoot the class becuase they have already lossed in their mind becuase they think they can't compete. People don't want to try something harder or not easy to accomplish in a short amount of time. They would rather not pay the extra money and try and learn and lose then try and get better and improve. I think the entry fee is a reason and lack of confidence is another. 

I would lower entry fee to 75$ and to be more drastic combine K45 and K50 and make one class. This would increase the number of archers that would receive payout. You would lose some archers to other classes but the numbers would be over 100. 

The ASA already has to many classes and trying to cater to everyone has watered down the classes. What Archers don't understand is that If you combine classes more people will receive payback example.

100 archers = 20 payback
200 archers = 40 payback

The same archers will always rise to the top no matter how many people are in a class. Combining classes will only increase the chances of archers to win money that never had.

We live in a Society that has corrupted young people by giving everyone a trophy that participates and telling everyone they are a winner. This type of attitude is in sports and in business. This only creates weak minds and more lazy people. If you are not good at something work harder or find the thing you are good at.


----------



## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

It amazes me at the skill of some of the people shooting in those classes. I'm in Open C this year and I am happy if I shoot 10-12 up on a local course with 20 targets and ASA scoring at 40 yard max. We might have 2-3 targets that are at the max...the rest are in the upper 20s and low 30 yard range. I'm guessing that K45 yardages are probably stretched out there a little more; I've never been on their range so I don't know. I am just amazed at that; knowing it takes at least 20 up per round to cut the top 10 in K45. Open C is a little more reserved on that...seems like to hit the podium, you gotta finish 30 up or better for the weekend, and then the numbers drop off rapidly from there to hit the top 10. Those 5 extra yards are big (to me)...and the shooters abilities only seem to get better as they step up into those K45 and K50 classes. The guys in K50 are shooting better than I can, and I'm 10+ yards closer. That is very intimidating.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

I sort of like the idea of combining K45 and K50. But, the reason that they did that was to attract Pro Shooters that don't normally judge ydg.
cenochs spoke of catering, that's exactly ASA's objective.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just pointing out here and there;

Fort Benning - Known 45 - 127 shooters....Known 50 - 27?
To combine both at this time it would seem the numbers wouldn't grow at that much more and if anything, might go down considering K50 is supposedly for Pros and K45 shooters being intimidated.... 

Contingency money... Hoyt announced there cutting back... I was actually surprised companies paid as much as they did for as long as they have. 
People don't understand archery is the only thing supporting archery. 

I asked before and here again. Do the big organizations want outside sponsors? If they do, who have they went after? If turned down, why?
From all Posts and replies I've seen in the past 4 or 5 years, right here on AT are the only people wanting to grow archery...
Mostly I hear the big organizations don't want their hands "tied" by outside sponsors..... ASA before the buy out, wasn't $50,000 possible? For those not up on the game; 3D Shooting Times of years past. Article about Vegas and Dave Cousins and Jeff Hopkins on the line... By Ross Armstrong, Dave was trying to intimidate Jeff by; "You nervous? I've never shot for $20,000 before." Jeff replies; "No. I've shot for $50,000."

Of course people here don't want to accept archery is big because they can't see through any other means than at the national level. At any one national, say a average of 1200, and on any one weekend every weekend across the nation maybe 25,000 shooting club 3Ds or other archery events. So 1200 per month ASA wise and 100,000 through clubs per month.... If I'm wrong, prove it..... "3D Shoots.com; 6500+ shoots listed yearly."


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

CMA121885 said:


> A few days ago I had a convo with a K50 shooter about how to grow the class. These guys shoot the pro range, and even though its known yardage, It takes alot of talent to win these known classes. A couple things to consider before people start ranting about "well its known"..
> 
> Shooting a known class determines whos a better archer, whos the most consistent through the shot process etc. The playing field in K50 or K45 is 100% equal, simply because the yardage is KNOWN. So the top shooters at the end of each tournament are the shooters who were the most consistent with their shot throughout the weekend.
> 
> ...


I know I have rubbed some Pro's the wrong way but I mean no disrespect to any individual.

I see K50 growing but it takes time as right now there is a huge disparity between the best K50 guys and the next group. In unknown distance classes there's a better chance of guys "getting lucky" and finishing fairly well. When it comes to just shooting skills and knowing the target there is less room for "luck". There's no saying, "my yardage guessing is off". If you can't hit a 2" circle every time in ideal conditions like indoors there's no point in shooting K50 where there are a lot more variables! One day I expect you will see the K50 class consistently pulling 50+ archers and the money will increase. When it does expect to see many more Dave Cousins, Duane Price's, Jesse Broadwaters, Logan Wildes and other professional spot shooters teeing it up. There is only so much money to go around and people have only so much time they can devote to archery games.

I shot out of K45 last year so I either spend a lot of time practicing judging yardage to shoot Senior Open or I donate a higher entry fee to shoot K50. Either way I'm far behind the pack....... I wouldn't mind seeing a "Senior K50" class and if there were I would most likely be shooting most of the ASA's!


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

TAYLOR CO. said:


> I sort of like the idea of combining K45 and K50. But, the reason that they did that was to attract Pro Shooters that don't normally judge ydg.
> cenochs spoke of catering, that's exactly ASA's objective.


That would definitely help the other classes as many of the K45 guys would move to shooting Open C, Open B, Senior or Hunter. It makes no sense to even think merging the two classes would be a good thing! You can't force people to pay "pro fees" but you can turn people off such that they pay zero because they aren't participating.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

cenochs said:


> K50 is a tough class most archers dont want to shoot the class becuase they have already lossed in their mind becuase they think they can't compete. People don't want to try something harder or not easy to accomplish in a short amount of time. They would rather not pay the extra money and try and learn and lose then try and get better and improve. I think the entry fee is a reason and lack of confidence is another.
> 
> I would lower entry fee to 75$ and to be more drastic combine K45 and K50 and make one class. This would increase the number of archers that would receive payout. You would lose some archers to other classes but the numbers would be over 100.
> 
> ...


That is true. The less it costs me the more likely I am to _donate_. However I don't think combining K45 and K50 makes any sense. Sure the better K50 guys will win more money but at what cost? 

What would the "win out" amount be in a merged K45/K50 class? Where do those archers go that win out?.....seems you end up back where you started.


----------



## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Kstigall said:


> That is true. The less it costs me the more likely I am to _donate_. However I don't think combining K45 and K50 makes any sense. Sure the better K50 guys will win more money but at what cost?
> 
> What would the "win out" amount be in a merged K45/K50 class? Where do those archers go that win out?.....seems you end up back where you started.


Kstigall, 

Sounds like you got it all figured out and everyone's questions/comments/concerns are just plain illegitimate by your responses!

It appears you think ASA classes are just perfect....no need for a forum....

Carry on.....


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Scott Bennett said:


> Kstigall,
> Sounds like you got it all figured out and everyone's questions/comments/concerns are just plain illegitimate by your responses!
> It appears you think ASA classes are just perfect....no need for a forum....
> 
> Carry on.....


He gave his opinion. I didn't see you offer up anything.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

I dont think merging the classes would make much sense. However, Its been agreed on that known distance and unknown distance are 2 different games, THAT we can agree on.

BUT what makes unknown so much more attractable to the sponsors? THIS IS MY POINT, THIS IS WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD. What can WE as archers do to make the known game AS attractable as the unknown?

Here is a tid bit of info on my background in ASA, I started in hunter back in 2011, Shot it a could years...I think in those couple of years I won 16 bucks. I moved to open C last year because I wanted to shoot a open set up. I won out at the 2nd ASA I attended. I won out JUST on the known day, I slide by on the unknown course and shot very well on the known. I knew K45 was my calling. Where are the others that win out of a known class moving to? Are they goin to open A for the money? Why not go to K50 if known is their game? If entry fee is the reason, once they win out of open A they only are goin to pay the money or quit because from there the entry fee is the same, Unless you just to open pro..

I was intimidated by the K45 scores, Ill admit. After seeing how tony morelli, rodney wiley, kent stigall, and alot of the other shooters who wouldnt be intimidated by those scores. BUT I went in with the mindset that I had the ability to shoot with them, and the playing field was even. First shoot in K45 was at paris, I tied for 3rd. 

I work offshore in the gulf of mexico, and have a partner in a archery related business. I would LOVE to one day shoot pro, BUT with my work schedule of being on the water for several weeks at a time, I cant look at a target, much less judge any distance. So I will probably be a known distance shooter until my days are over. I want to see it grow.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Isn't K45 the largest class in ASA, they will get to K50 eventually. I think you would lose shooters to combine the two.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

jimb said:


> Isn't K45 the largest class in ASA, they will get to K50 eventually. I think you would lose shooters to combine the two.


Open C which is now K40, K45, opeb B and open A are the largest classes. Usually K45 and Open C has the most. Ft benning last year they shut the sims range down because of the number of K45 shooters they had. They made the sims range a K45 range


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

CMA121885 said:


> A few days ago I had a convo with a K50 shooter about how to grow the class. These guys shoot the pro range, and even though its known yardage, It takes alot of talent to win these known classes. A couple things to consider before people start ranting about "well its known"..
> 
> Shooting a known class determines whos a better archer, whos the most consistent through the shot process etc. The playing field in K50 or K45 is 100% equal, simply because the yardage is KNOWN. So the top shooters at the end of each tournament are the shooters who were the most consistent with their shot throughout the weekend.
> 
> ...


If the guys in the pro class shot the K50 the winners would still be the same! Pressure the same when you shoot against guys like Gillingham, Levi and Brooks and others. 

K50 has done has allowed those who cant win in pro class another place to shoot. My thoughts if your going to have two pro class's allow the pros to shoot both class's and will find out who the best. Most pros would come in a day early and shoot all 40 in one day in known yardage. I also think once a K45 shooter has to move up he will quit known and seen it happen with more than a few shooters. 

JMO
DB 

There plenty of known yardage shoots its called Field and 900 rounds.


----------



## rodney c. (Mar 20, 2010)

Shot my first Pro/am at Stillwater in K45 last week. I had been shooting open-c at he local level. Here is what I learned..... It still comes down to shot execution and how you play each target. It seems that among the open class shooters there is this stigma attached to the known class. My first thought was that K45 would be easier.....WRONG!! My rounds felt much more competitive than any open shoot I have been to and I loved it.

As for the Pro vs K50 discussion, how much different are they really? If you put the top 10 pros and th top 10 k50 shooters in the same class and give them all known targets what would the outcome be? Before you think about that consider that these top ten pro's typically judge to the yard on every target. Are we to believe that after a Pro steps up to the stake and gets his number that that target is still unknown? I don't think so. 

I would expect known and Pro shooters to be at the top of that leader board.

Do we believe a given open pro shooter can go to a K50 range and shoot a perfect round in completion? I do not.

It's this simple. Some shooters enjoy the challenge of judging, some do not. I'm thankful there are classes to accomadate both at a high level.

I think it would b awesome to have sme bigger payouts in K50.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

For the K50 class to grow it needs manufacturer support with good contingency.

But it would pull a few from Open Pro


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

All you have to do is look at the daily scores in the Open B class to see the difference between known and unknown yardages. A few guys will shoot well both days but the "spot" shooters and the guys with excellent shot execution will shoot much higher scores on the known day. The unknown day is when you see the guys with good yardage judging skills rise to the top.

Personally I think ASA has a good asortment of classes to bring every archer the opportunity to enjoy our sport. Combining 45 and 50 would lower participation and run alot of guys off.

If you want to shoot for "the big money" then step up and move to Pro. ASA allows anyone to move up to Pro, all you have to do is pay the cash. I think you'd be real surprised to see the true skill level between the two groups.

I will use Sam Wolthus as an example. The man is a shooting God in the Known 50 class, but he can't judge yardage well enough to take on the Pros. I'm sure if he could, he would.

Known Class - you have to hit where you are aiming. Unknown (Open A) - you have to hit where you are aiming and you have to know how far the dot is.

Open Pro - perfect combination of putting it all together to shoot incredible.

Perfect mix. It would be great if there was enough money in archery to give everyone a $10,000 check...but there just isn't. So you give it to the best of the best.


----------



## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

I believe the reason it is tough to grow any pro class is it is the toughness of the competition. Only the very best shooters can compete in them and the rest know that. Why dump a high entry fee and get whooped when there is another option


----------



## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

CMA121885 said:


> I can agree with most of that. 3D is a game, I feel like having the targets at home to look at and study separates alot of these unknown shooters.
> 
> BUT, learning target definition, AND detail of the targets/size IS NOT judging yardage IMO. You dont look at a deer and say, OK I can see that hair, that cant be farther than 30 yards. Thats the point Im getting at. The pros will tell you they "judge" off of detail, definition, and target size. So thats a advantage over anyone who doesnt have targets.
> 
> ...


Doesnt the K50 guys shoot the pro course and K45 guys shoot the regular course. This is what i read on here the other day. That could be the reason the guys in K45 stay there and dont move into the K50 the course is more challenging and they are no longer at the top of the field.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

mhill said:


> Doesnt the K50 guys shoot the pro course and K45 guys shoot the regular course. This is what i read on here the other day. That could be the reason the guys in K45 stay there and dont move into the K50 the course is more challenging and they are no longer at the top of the field.


I've shot several K45 ASA tournaments and I have never won a dollar, wouldn't make much sense for me to jump to K50


----------



## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

CMA121885 said:


> Open C which is now K40, K45, opeb B and open A are the largest classes. Usually K45 and Open C has the most. Ft benning last year they shut the sims range down because of the number of K45 shooters they had. They made the sims range a K45 range


Senior Pro is a huge class as well.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Put K50 in the shoot down, gets them noticed. Does K50 have a win out, if it does that should go away. Its the top of the known classes, let em shoot.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

jimb said:


> Put K50 in the shoot down, gets them noticed. Does K50 have a win out, if it does that should go away. Its the top of the known classes, let em shoot.


No winout in K50.....

As long as you can win out of K45 and go to Open A ($50 entry fee or 55 I don't remember), some folks will definitely jump over there instead of K50 ($125)........


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

jimb said:


> Put K50 in the shoot down, gets them noticed. Does K50 have a win out, if it does that should go away. Its the top of the known classes, let em shoot.


This is what I would like to see. No doubt the best shooters are goin to win. BUT if K50 is considered a "pro" class why do they not get any publicity? This isnt a "why the judging class is better", which is what it always turns into. 

I wanna see K50 grow, thats why I started this thread. Its not a debate about why "judging" is better in each person opinion. Ill more than likely be headed to K50 next year. I look forward to shooting against the best of the best on the known side. 

One day when I have targets, and can sit down and study target size and definition like the open guys do, then I might make a swing at open pro.


----------



## rodney c. (Mar 20, 2010)

Great thread and great discussion. The more I shoot known the more I love it. I will also make the move to K50 someday. I'm probably 2-3 years out though. Still got some work to do.


----------



## JSTHNTN (Apr 15, 2008)

buckbuster31 said:


> I think it is the price of k50 that scAres people to other classes


I agree with the statement above. I've never shot a known class in the ASA but price pays a factor for me and I can't shoot 40+ up.. LOL 

Shoot what class you enjoy.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

CMA121885 said:


> This is what I would like to see. No doubt the best shooters are goin to win. *BUT if K50 is considered a "pro" class why do they not get any publicity?* This isnt a "why the judging class is better", which is what it always turns into.
> 
> I wanna see K50 grow, thats why I started this thread. Its not a debate about why "judging" is better in each person opinion. Ill more than likely be headed to K50 next year. I look forward to shooting against the best of the best on the known side.
> 
> One day when I have targets, and can sit down and study target size and definition like the open guys do, then I might make a swing at open pro.


In bold above. K50 didn't capture the hearts of the Pros or rather the group ASA was wanting to capture, Spot shooters. And you don't have to be a Pro if by the rules;
Known 50 Open, 50 yards, 290 FPS, Known. Anyone required to compete in semi-pro or above may compete in this class. ASA membership is required, Pro Certification is optional.

And it doesn't make any difference the archery venue. Who gets the lime light at Vegas, Louisville, Lancaster's and any IBO national? The top of heap, Pro Free Style.

Rare is it for other classes to be acknowledged, noted or hi-lighted. I keep bringing it up and can't help it, but 3D Shooting Times, Ross Armstrong, used to give a run down of stand outs of any class. US/International bought out 3D Times so my remaining subscription of 3D Times switched to US/International and that it was so lack luster I wouldn't renew my subscription. Maybe it's improved.... No one really speaks of it.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I agree with Sonny, K50 is not a pro class, I would assume if it were then the Pro certificate would be required for the class and entry fee would be 250 or whatever it is.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

There is no win out. =Pro Class
Have shutdowns.
Pay Pro registration.
Money is what will power it to grow.
The money is what keeps people away mainly. But that's what will get the class noticed also.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

I disagree sonny, a couple things you mentioned I dont agree with at all....how can you call it a "spot shoot"? Theres NO colored spot to hold your pin on. You have to know where to aim, off of target detail or what not. So to say its a spot shoot is completely wrong, imo.

Im sticking to my guns on this, IF k50 is NOT considered a "pro" class, then why is there NO win out? Also if you shoot K50, why is it that you have to shoot a equivalent class (pro) in other venues? If a K50 shooter shoots a indoor event hes required to shoot in the "pro" class....So obviously there are some rules that dont make sense here.

I expected people to be defensive about this subject, I dont quite understand WHY everyone seems defensive, When its "just a game"..


----------



## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

Cant win out of unlimited either and its not a pro class


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

DEESHAW said:


> Cant win out of unlimited either and its not a pro class


Or Senior, or Super Senior, or Master Senior either.

K50 shooters do not have to shoot Pro in NFAA. I don't think semi pros have to shoot pro indoor either.


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

reylamb said:


> Or Senior, or Super Senior, or Master Senior either.
> 
> K50 shooters do not have to shoot Pro in NFAA. I don't think semi pros have to shoot pro indoor either.


If thats the case then it makes sense why Its not considered pro, I was also told they had to. 

We dont have any indoor where I live.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

There are several issues at hand.

What will make K50 grow?..... time. I really don't care what anyone says, known distance is the future of this game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. High-level unknown yardage 3d has become a rich man's sport. The blue collar guys (the foundation of our sport) will only chase that for so long. To compete at a high level now you must own a set of targets ($...and crap quality), have a place to put them ($), have a job that affords you the opportunity to see them ($)....and still pays the bills and the costs of playing the game ($). You don't get manufacturer support (up front money, travel, entry fees) nowadays until you prove you can win at the pro-level..... see the cycle? 

I personally think that EVENTUALLY, for there to be a known-pro class, the will also have to be a semi-pro known class. Right now, the win-out thresholds are too low in K45 and you have guys winning out (forced out) before they are "ready" to compete in K50. Perhaps it should be set higher.... like Semi-Pro in the mean time. 

If you wave the magic wand and call K50 a Pro class today, it would die quickly. Of the 25-ish regular attendants, all of us are paying our own way, most of us buy our own bows....and arrows...and entry fees. The $275 entry fee would evacuate many of the current players. Even if the manufacturer's support their pro's in transition to K50 (or promote migration of "spottie" pros to the game), I don't think it would outnumber the loss.... Chances are that the primary influx of attendees would come from the current Open Pro class. As I said, I think this is going to happen eventually anyway but forcing it too early isn't likely to be good for anyone.

So, full circle... there is my argument for the "not now"... the higher win out in K45....

I'd look for a BJ podcast on this very subject in the very near future....


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

CMA121885 said:


> I disagree sonny, a couple things you mentioned I dont agree with at all....how can you call it a "spot shoot"? Theres NO colored spot to hold your pin on. You have to know where to aim, off of target detail or what not. So to say its a spot shoot is completely wrong, imo.
> 
> Im sticking to my guns on this, IF k50 is NOT considered a "pro" class, then why is there NO win out? Also if you shoot K50, why is it that you have to shoot a equivalent class (pro) in other venues? If a K50 shooter shoots a indoor event hes required to shoot in the "pro" class....So obviously there are some rules that dont make sense here.
> 
> I expected people to be defensive about this subject, I dont quite understand WHY everyone seems defensive, When its "just a game"..


Looks like to me that you are the one being "defensive" because everyone isn't agreeing with you my brother.

So you make the Known 50 a "Pro" class, then what happens? If participation drops to only 10-20 guys because they move to a cheaper entry fee class, then there will be LESS payback.

I'm not sure I agree with T on the future being all known yardage though, I just checked my local club shoots and only 2 offer known yardage classes. I think at the local level, unknown ranges are still the king.

And sponsor money? That is not guaranteed either. Sponsors are already lowering contingency money for the Pros, I doubt they will spread it out amongst two Pro classes.

Even


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

For sure I agree with tmorelli for hunting. It's happening right now. More and more are quitting hunting due to lease property and high fees of Outfitters. I bought out 2 hunters this last year and one the year before for the reasons I just noted...Hunting bows are not getting any cheaper either.

Again, I've said it before, archers know their ability. They aren't going to compete knowing they will be beat every time out. Eventually, archers of right now will drop out due to climbing costs of going to a national. Many just want to have fun and me, I can have a lot of fun for $10 at a club 3D or $25 for a State NFAA or ASA event. And I limit myself at these. I mean, Champion or SOY at the state level doesn't hold much water. The only time a state champion is recognized is if that organization wants to use it for PR. I once tried to a Forum going in the ASA Forums so that State Champions could be recognized. Said it was a good idea, but never flew.... Scores for State events are rarely posted in the ASA Forums... 

Check the ASA national score sheets over the years, most classes. Those in the bottom half of the classes were/are there a vast majority of the time.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Scott Bennett said:


> Kstigall,
> 
> Sounds like you got it all figured out and everyone's questions/comments/concerns are just plain illegitimate by your responses!
> 
> ...


What exactly was your point in this post? Other than to needle me (personal attack) your post has ZERO value. Pretty obvious you have something against me...... 
All I'm doing is discussing a topic. I'm saying that there is a significant difference between K45 and K50 which means merging them may be counter productive.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> There are several issues at hand.
> 
> What will make K50 grow?..... time. I really don't care what anyone says, known distance is the future of this game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. High-level unknown yardage 3d has become a rich man's sport. The blue collar guys (the foundation of our sport) will only chase that for so long. To compete at a high level now you must own a set of targets ($...and crap quality), have a place to put them ($), have a job that affords you the opportunity to see them ($)....and still pays the bills and the costs of playing the game ($). You don't get manufacturer support (up front money, travel, entry fees) nowadays until you prove you can win at the pro-level..... see the cycle?
> 
> ...



Tony and I are on the exact same page other than maybe his commitment to the "future" of 3D being known distance. I am only partially committed to known distance being the future.

Now I am living it...... I won out of K45 last year with only modest success. I now MUST shoot K50, Semi-Pro, Open A or Senior Open. My only real options are K50 with it's high entry fee and premier spot shooters or Senior Open which is all unknown distance. I can't get over about 280 fps from my target bows (short draw) and my best yardage guessing is only "decent" so Senior Open is a leap. Though I "won out" of K45 I am no where near being competitive in K50 or Senior Open. If I shot K45 again this year I would *not* be considered a favorite to win any tournament at any time. At my age I don't expect any great leaps in improving my shot or my ability to judge yardage. I will be shooting K50 at the Regions shoot in NC this weekend. If I could get 295 fps I'd consider Senior Open and may end up there.

If K50 were simply slapped with the label of being a Pro class it does not mean that sponsors would suddenly throw money at the shooters. I don't know if any big 3D sponsor company would pay contingency $$ to a contract shooter for competing in just ASA K50............not until there are enough folks shooting "known" distance to make it a valuable marketing tool. There isn't a "known" distance IBO class and most of the big name spotties don't shoot much 3D. When a couple dozen K50 shooters like Sam W. are on the shootoff line at Vegas and Indoor Nationals you may see a "Pro Known" class with some money on the table.


----------



## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

Did Logan Wilde shoot K50 this last weekend? I thought I heard Jesse Broadwater was considering shooting a K50 class or two this year?

If you would start to get that kind of crossover, then you might see a true pro known class, and then everything would flow from that. Hell, if ASA started to get the Wildes, Broadwater, et al to show up to shoot K50, then I would think the IBO would have to consider a known class.


----------



## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> If the guys in the pro class shot the K50 the winners would still be the same! Pressure the same when you shoot against guys like Gillingham, Levi and Brooks and others.
> 
> K50 has done has allowed those who cant win in pro class another place to shoot. My thoughts if your going to have two pro class's allow the pros to shoot both class's and will find out who the best. Most pros would come in a day early and shoot all 40 in one day in known yardage. I also think once a K45 shooter has to move up he will quit known and seen it happen with more than a few shooters.
> 
> ...


Boone, First, in the easteren U.S. there are very few Field and 900 rounds to shoot. Second, You can not have guys shooting a course a day earlier than other shooters. Because the shooting conditions would not be the same. Third, In 2009, the first year of the K50. We paid pro level entry fee, and there was contingency paid in the class, and there was several shooters that left open pro and came and shot with us. And they didn't always win either! Forth, The top open pros would score no better in K50 than they do now!!!! They judge good enough that they DO know the yardage already!!!!! So their scores would not change!!! Fifth, The biggest thing that needs to happen to the K50 class, is to raise the entry fee back to Pro level. And then tell a certain bow company to stop worrying about what classes are pro and what classes are not. And let ASA worry about running archery tournaments and for them worry about marketing their bows.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

ThunderEagle said:


> Did Logan Wilde shoot K50 this last weekend? I thought I heard Jesse Broadwater was considering shooting a K50 class or two this year?
> 
> If you would start to get that kind of crossover, then you might see a true pro known class, and then everything would flow from that. Hell, if ASA started to get the Wildes, Broadwater, et al to show up to shoot K50, then I would think the IBO would have to consider a known class.


Yes, I shot with Logan yesterday. Great guy by the way. 

Jesse shot LA two years ago. Cuz shot many, slacked off and occasionally shows up at FL since then. 

Those guys aren't going to show up in numbers until their manufacturers make it worth while.


----------



## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

have the shooters in the class go cold turkey on the summers eve, grow a pair and make the class all unkown.


----------



## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> Those guys aren't going to show up in numbers until their manufacturers make it worth while.


I get that, but I just wonder if it is a chicken and egg type of situation? If they would start to show up, their manufactures would see the value in paying contingency, which would cause others to start showing up.

It will be interesting to see if things start moving in that direction like you think it will.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Pincher said:


> have the shooters in the class go cold turkey on the summers eve, grow a pair and make the class all unkown.


it's easy to post stupid stuff behind the anonymity of your user name...as you prove regularly. Post up your real name so we can see how bad you suck in the ASA database.


----------



## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

I'm new to competitve 3d so bare with me if this is a stupid question. How long as K50 been a class? Just going for a little history as I follow along.


----------



## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

Colorado_Hunter said:


> I'm new to competitve 3d so bare with me if this is a stupid question. How long as K50 been a class? Just going for a little history as I follow along.


I saw earlier it looks as if it was 2009.

As for the pros shooting known...I would doubt their scores would change simply bc their skill in judging targets parlays into their scores. The execution in shot and consistency is ultimately the key, so I wouldn't expect to see a big life in the top pros game.

If you are marginal in judging but a good shot I could see that happen, but otherwise it's stagnant.

K50 guys are solid shooters and it's tough no matter known distance or not. I tip my cap to those guys bc they're lights out.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

n2bows said:


> Boone, First, in the easteren U.S. there are very few Field and 900 rounds to shoot. Second, You can not have guys shooting a course a day earlier than other shooters. Because the shooting conditions would not be the same. Third, In 2009, the first year of the K50. We paid pro level entry fee, and there was contingency paid in the class, and there was several shooters that left open pro and came and shot with us. And they didn't always win either! Forth, The top open pros would score no better in K50 than they do now!!!! They judge good enough that they DO know the yardage already!!!!! So their scores would not change!!! Fifth, The biggest thing that needs to happen to the K50 class, is to raise the entry fee back to Pro level. And then tell a certain bow company to stop worrying about what classes are pro and what classes are not. And let ASA worry about running archery tournaments and for them worry about marketing their bows.


I remember Dave Cousins winning in the early years ever event he shot. If your going to have a pro class let get the all pros shooting pro. Thats my point! If ASA wanted to make it so Pros could shoot both class's Im sure Mike would make it happen and it would be extra money for ASA. Put the money in the K50 and pros will be there. There no doubt in my mind, several would make the jump from unknown IMO. 
DB
DB


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> There are several issues at hand.
> 
> What will make K50 grow?..... time. I really don't care what anyone says, known distance is the future of this game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. High-level unknown yardage 3d has become a rich man's sport. The blue collar guys (the foundation of our sport) will only chase that for so long. To compete at a high level now you must own a set of targets ($...and crap quality), have a place to put them ($), have a job that affords you the opportunity to see them ($)....and still pays the bills and the costs of playing the game ($). You don't get manufacturer support (up front money, travel, entry fees) nowadays until you prove you can win at the pro-level..... see the cycle?
> 
> ...


Great Post ! Nice to finally meet you this weekend


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The Beauty right now in the known 50 class is to win the class you must shoot and beat Sam Wolthius, he is a world class spot shooter and the dominant known 50 shooter. Any time you have the chance to pay only 125 dollars and shoot against the best in the world it is a sweet thing, Just last weekend at the regions shoot tmorelli showed up and found a way to dig deep and beat Sam and win a known 50 shoot on a tough course. 

Known 50 is a pro class and to me Sam Wolthius is a setting the foundation for future success of the known 50 class, he is a pro shooter who is choosing to show up and compete in a class that isn't really paying that much right at the moment. He is a great guy to be around and a good ambassador of the sport who started shooting asa and he has worked from being a puncher with a hunting bow up to a solid indoor pro and the best known 50 shooter ever. Sam is what a asa shooter dreams of becoming, he started out suffering and getting beat and worked his way into a class offered by asa into a shooter of the year and multi time champion.

All asa has to do is simply pay out a pro check to the known 50 class and then Jesse and Chance and Sam and Reo and Dave and all the other top shooters would have a class to show up and smoke the 12 ring.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just last week I had a "BUY A ZERO BACK" Idea that for 10 bucks you could buy a extra shot to be used only if you shoot a zero for any reason on a target. I saw and heard at least 6 arrows on the open a course launch into the trees this weekend, I just know that many shooters would buy the 10 dollar zero just in case and this weekend we almost had 1600 shooters so the money raised could go to the known 50 pro class to pay them a real pro check for being on the podium.

By the way Sam's group was on the pro course and it was a zig zag course and they accidentally shot the wrong target and sam had to take a zero and he still won the known 50 this weekend.

The other strong shooters in this nation will come if the money is there for them to try and win, the only problem is the more time they let sam get more confident in his ability to smoke known 50 ranges he is going to be really freaking hard to beat.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

n2bows said:


> Boone, First, in the easteren U.S. there are very few Field and 900 rounds to shoot. Second, You can not have guys shooting a course a day earlier than other shooters. Because the shooting conditions would not be the same. Third, In 2009, the first year of the K50. We paid pro level entry fee, and there was contingency paid in the class, and there was several shooters that left open pro and came and shot with us. And they didn't always win either! Forth, The top open pros would score no better in K50 than they do now!!!! They judge good enough that they DO know the yardage already!!!!! So their scores would not change!!! Fifth, The biggest thing that needs to happen to the K50 class, is to raise the entry fee back to Pro level. And then tell a certain bow company to stop worrying about what classes are pro and what classes are not. And let ASA worry about running archery tournaments and for them worry about marketing their bows.


There seem to be many folks that feel the same way. But that is not how it works. The "Pro archers" and the corresponding classes are the result of having a healthy number of amateur archers and classes. K50 started out as a Pro class with the high entry fee and it didn't work. If someone currently shooting Pro 3D moves over to K50 there is no net gain for the ASA. For there to be a supported (money and participants) "Known Pro" class there has to be a healthy amateur or semi-pro K50 and K45 divisions. 

Now if you could round up Reo, Logan, Braden, Jesse, Bridger, Cousins, Starnes, Willett, Price and a bunch of others and convince them to sign up for the shoots you could immediately launch a "Pro Known" class. But since they are for the most part busy with other archer games there is little chance. Even if they did all sign up you still would not change K50. I would think the ASA would create a Pro Know class and that would help grow K50. The guys currently shooting Pro 3D and _generally_ finishing in the bottom half of the class in big tournaments would not be much of a factor in a Pro Known class.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> There are several issues at hand.
> 
> What will make K50 grow?..... time. I really don't care what anyone says, known distance is the future of this game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. High-level unknown yardage 3d has become a rich man's sport. The blue collar guys (the foundation of our sport) will only chase that for so long. To compete at a high level now you must own a set of targets ($...and crap quality), have a place to put them ($), have a job that affords you the opportunity to see them ($)....and still pays the bills and the costs of playing the game ($). You don't get manufacturer support (up front money, travel, entry fees) nowadays until you prove you can win at the pro-level..... see the cycle?
> 
> ...


Tony you make some good points. Bottom line put the money in this class and top pros will come play. Gillingham, Brooks and Levi all can shoot known lights out. Cream of the crop will raise to take the cash. I still hope if the day comes it made so pros can all play and not have a separation of pro class's. If your going to be a pro play against the best of the best. Dont have several pro class's. Step up and see if you can compete.
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Just last week I had a "BUY A ZERO BACK" Idea that for 10 bucks you could buy a extra shot to be used only if you shoot a zero for any reason on a target. I saw and heard at least 6 arrows on the open a course launch into the trees this weekend, I just know that many shooters would buy the 10 dollar zero just in case and this weekend we almost had 1600 shooters so the money raised could go to the known 50 pro class to pay them a real pro check for being on the podium.
> 
> By the way Sam's group was on the pro course and it was a zig zag course and they accidentally shot the wrong target and sam had to take a zero and he still won the known 50 this weekend.
> 
> The other strong shooters in this nation will come if the money is there for them to try and win, the only problem is the more time they let sam get more confident in his ability to smoke known 50 ranges he is going to be really freaking hard to beat.


Padgett, bless you for the want and try in you, but you know my opinion.... There's a plain need for a sponsor. Some one approach some big name sponsor for just this class.... Winchester does it at big pistol matches or use to. They had the Pin Shoot at this big event. I've been out of pistol competition for some time.
So the K50 Ford Open, K50 Dodge Open, etc... Here, a sponsor doesn't have to throw bunches of money out, not just for one class....If Mike has a problem with this, then it's Mike with a problem.... Okay, shot in the dark, but what if spin offs came? K45 Chevy Open. Buick Hunter Open... One thing about the Known classes, virtually every free style type and hunter class can jump to it, even Seniors and Masters. Yep, if caught on some rules would need overhauled, entry fees changed (lowered maybe)....

No more off the wall than expecting all competitors to shell out another $10 for a missed shot they may not have. "6 missed shots out of 1600 contestants." Triple it and says 18 missed shots and 1600 contestants....


----------



## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Like I said I just want to see the class grow, Im like Tmorelli, Im a blue colar working guy. I dont own a range of targets, although I live in the country and have plenty of land to put them.

So the entry fee being raised has its "pros' and 'con's'", I can agree on many points.

To the person that said I was getting defensive, IM NOT in anyway taking offense to any of this. But it seems like every time this topic is brought up it turns to a "learn to judge" or a "only judgin will pay". I get that right now thats where the money is....

Sam is dominating the K50 class right now, But theres others that can steal the podium at anytime. Not discrediting the guy at all, hes a force to be reckon with on the stake. I look up to alot of these guys, Tmorelli, Daniel Matthews, Larry Daniels, Chad Hilburn, all these guys have what it takes. Iv swapped messages and talked to several of these guys at ASA's and they are a great group of guys for sure! I look forward to the experience to shoot with them!

I do agree K45 has to low of a win out. For myself, being the blue colar type Ill be goin to K50 from K45. Am I ready for that jump once I win out of K45...That I dont know. I feel confident in my ability, But I may get my tail kicked in K50. But Id rather go in K50 knowing I have to just make a shot and not have the pressure of trying to figure out yardage.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Sonny Thomas is right about my little baby solution, it is nothing more than a poor attempt to make things right. Finding a real sponsor like Bass Pro or Budweiser or any really big business is the way to go. Even Coca-Cola would be a good one.

My fear is that the people in charge are happy with the current outlook and setup and they aren't even trying to get their hooks into a really big sponsor. What if they are happy being right where we are right now.

To me we are screwed and more than likely will not see any growth, just like the chick filet girls coming down the open a course with some soda and food. They had guys buying stuff from them the whole time they were there and it would be a easy way for asa to generate more money by adding this service each tournament and they don't do it because they are happy where they are.


----------



## WICKEDADDICTION (Jul 1, 2013)

I have a question though maybe a little of topic, why are there speed limits in the known distance classes? My personal opinion I think what deters people away from known classes is they can't have an excuse for a bad shot. If they hit high or low it's on them. I'm personally a hunter a class shooter, I've won a couple local shoots at blackstone archery this year but because I use a hha slider sight for the state I'm gonna have to shoot in an open class, which logically would be open c but I'm hesitatent because I prefer unknown. I need an excuse if I hit high or low hahaha!


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Padgett said:


> Sonny Thomas is right about my little baby solution, it is nothing more than a poor attempt to make things right. Finding a real sponsor like Bass Pro or Budweiser or any really big business is the way to go. Even Coca-Cola would be a good one.
> 
> My fear is that the people in charge are happy with the current outlook and setup and they aren't even trying to get their hooks into a really big sponsor. What if they are happy being right where we are right now.
> 
> To me we are screwed and more than likely will not see any growth, just like the chick filet girls coming down the open a course with some soda and food. They had guys buying stuff from them the whole time they were there and it would be a easy way for asa to generate more money by adding this service each tournament and they don't do it because they are happy where they are.


I agree, a big name sponsor would require the ASA to allow them input and say in how things are run. I'm not sure the ASA is willing to trade that.


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

CMA121885 said:


> Like I said I just want to see the class grow, Im like Tmorelli, Im a blue colar working guy. I dont own a range of targets, although I live in the country and have plenty of land to put them.
> 
> So the entry fee being raised has its "pros' and 'con's'", I can agree on many points.
> 
> ...


I'm all for growth for our sport that we all enjoy, but not at the sacrifice of other classes.

Normally I would agree that anyone can "steal the podium" at anytime, but considering the fact that Sam took a zero by shooting the wrong target and still walked away with the win, I would be more inclined to say that the win is his to lose rather than someone to take......he is absolutely incredible to watch. The only ***** in his armor is that he can't judge, otherwise I have no doubt he'd be right there in the shootoffs with Tim and Levi.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Sonny Thomas is right about my little baby solution, it is nothing more than a poor attempt to make things right. Finding a real sponsor like Bass Pro or Budweiser or any really big business is the way to go. Even Coca-Cola would be a good one.
> 
> My fear is that the people in charge are happy with the current outlook and setup and they aren't even trying to get their hooks into a really big sponsor. What if they are happy being right where we are right now.
> 
> To me we are screwed and more than likely will not see any growth, just like the chick filet girls coming down the open a course with some soda and food. They had guys buying stuff from them the whole time they were there and it would be a easy way for asa to generate more money by adding this service each tournament and they don't do it because they are happy where they are.


I feel we both want the same thing... Before my time, one beer company put pizzazz in the pot, right? One sponsor sponsoring one class surely can't put that much demand on the ASA or any organization for that matter.... Years back the company I work for wanted cost cutting across the board,s ay 16%. The White Shirts were running all over to find the big numbers to cut costs and overlooked the many small cost cuts that would surpass the then wanted 16%.... So not big name sponsors, but a few little name sponsors. Again, one class, one event doesn't demand multiple 1000s of dollars. Little sponsors could alternate between nationals... 

Decatur, Illinois. ASA club has sponsors for each shooting lane... Supply their own sign and whatever donation to the club.....Our club has a huge target stop wall, bill board size and maybe 40 or 50 yards long. We've been approached by some to put their store signs on the wall. We haven't yet, but a option....


----------



## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> it's easy to post stupid stuff behind the anonymity of your user name...as you prove regularly. Post up your real name so we can see how bad you suck in the ASA database.


Lol!!!! I agree!!!


----------



## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

One big problem is MATHEWS they will not let there shooters compete in the Known 50. Please tell me if Iam wrong.


----------



## jbuckles39 (Jan 25, 2010)

Why not approach local vendors at event sites for a fee their sign is put up at the shoot to try to pull us shooters into their establishments. You know we all like to go eat after a long day on the course! Hotels, restaurants, local archery shops, Gas stations, you name it they all would give a little money to get a piece of the pie that comes to town. Am I wrong?


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Padgett said:


> Sonny Thomas is right about my little baby solution, it is nothing more than a poor attempt to make things right. Finding a real sponsor like Bass Pro or Budweiser or any really big business is the way to go. Even Coca-Cola would be a good one.
> 
> My fear is that the people in charge are happy with the current outlook and setup and they aren't even trying to get their hooks into a really big sponsor. What if they are happy being right where we are right now.
> 
> To me we are screwed and more than likely will not see any growth, just like the chick filet girls coming down the open a course with some soda and food. They had guys buying stuff from them the whole time they were there and it would be a easy way for asa to generate more money by adding this service each tournament and they don't do it because they are happy where they are.


ASA has yet to stop any vendor from walking around selling food on the ranges. It is not ASA providing the food, nor is it ASA's job to tell vendors how to sell their product.

Someone in Illinois every year would make an absolute killing with those frog tog towel things in a cooler of ice.....they would make a fortune walking around the ranges selling them on that weekend.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Yes, I shot with Logan yesterday. Great guy by the way.
> 
> Jesse shot LA two years ago. Cuz shot many, slacked off and occasionally shows up at FL since then.
> 
> Those guys aren't going to show up in numbers until their manufacturers make it worth while.


Dave shoots FL if he competes in the World Tournament the week before....at least that has been his "normal" travel schedule for years he shot K classes.

Jesse shot FL one year also, along with one of the Brits (name escapes me).....

Cuz also used to shoot the Hoyt Sponsored shoot every year.....but that ain't happening anymore!!!!

Right now most of those guys are making their coin shooting the World stuff, FITA, etc, etc, etc....and there just ain't enough time in the season for them to do 3D and FITA stuff, so they focus on FITA.....just like very few of the 3Ders ever do any of the world team stuff, I think Darrin Christenberry is one of the few in recent memory, they focus on the game that butters their bread.

I think the day will happen when K50 is a true pro class.......but I also think it will take outside money to make it happen, unless Matt lets it go and gives the thumbs up.....but that is a different story completely.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

reylamb said:


> Dave shoots FL if he competes in the World Tournament the week before....at least that has been his "normal" travel schedule for years he shot K classes.
> 
> Jesse shot FL one year also, along with one of the Brits (name escapes me).....
> 
> ...


The Brit was Liam Grimwood, I believe, Jeff.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> There are several issues at hand.
> 
> What will make K50 grow?..... time. I really don't care what anyone says, known distance is the future of this game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. High-level unknown yardage 3d has become a rich man's sport. The blue collar guys (the foundation of our sport) will only chase that for so long. To compete at a high level now you must own a set of targets ($...and crap quality), have a place to put them ($), have a job that affords you the opportunity to see them ($)....and still pays the bills and the costs of playing the game ($). You don't get manufacturer support (up front money, travel, entry fees) nowadays until you prove you can win at the pro-level..... see the cycle?
> 
> ...


Awesome Post! I agree, 100%


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> I feel we both want the same thing... Before my time, one beer company put pizzazz in the pot, right? One sponsor sponsoring one class surely can't put that much demand on the ASA or any organization for that matter.... Years back the company I work for wanted cost cutting across the board,s ay 16%. The White Shirts were running all over to find the big numbers to cut costs and overlooked the many small cost cuts that would surpass the then wanted 16%.... So not big name sponsors, but a few little name sponsors. Again, one class, one event doesn't demand multiple 1000s of dollars. Little sponsors could alternate between nationals...
> 
> Decatur, Illinois. ASA club has sponsors for each shooting lane... Supply their own sign and whatever donation to the club.....Our club has a huge target stop wall, bill board size and maybe 40 or 50 yards long. We've been approached by some to put their store signs on the wall. We haven't yet, but a option....


You are on to something here......

Instead of looking for a million dollar sponsor to sponsor everything, go find multiple sponsors to sponsor individual classes or individual shoots. Sure right now we have the Hoyt Pro Am, the Easton Pro Am, the Mathews Pro Am, etc, etc, etc, but look at the golf model.......the Shell Houston Open, where Shell kicks in the prize money. Go to that tournament and Shell logos are plastered everywhere.

Maybe the Ford K50, Ford on the hook for (just throwing numbers out there) 100K for the entire season. 15K would probably get taken off the top for ASA......10K for each of the pro ams for the payout (maybe 5k for first, 3K for second, 2K for 3rd????), and 25 K for the classic (15K for 1st, 6K for 2nd, 4 k for 3rd????). Ford could have local dealers bring out demo vehicles, logos all over the ranges, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.......I am sure any sponsors would want to also have some type of logo being seen somewhere on every shooters shirt, or a patch on their stool, something.

If you go back and look at the history of golf, it was the golf pros and not the PGA tour that originally secured outside sponsorship for their tour. They hired a marketing agency, that agency went out and secured the original sponsorships for the tour events back in the day, and eventually the PGA Tour took over the marketing.....of course along came Tiger and the money escalated exponentially, but it all started with a handful of pros deciding they didn't want to wait around for the PGA Tour to go find money sponsors for them.

Maybe that is what archery needs, a group outside of the organizations to go find the money initially, eventually the orgs would be able to take over the marketing for them. As it stands now, none of the orgs are really setup with the people to go out and find that money, and quite possibly they are happy with their current financial model..........

In order to really grow K50 there has to be financial incentive behind it, and that incentive really needs to come from somewhere other than the current models, ie the mfg. If there was a way to secure those finances everyone would not be dependent upon MFG contingency, and the archery world could thumb their noses at the MFGs that don't want to support the Known classes.

I also think at the end of the day there needs to be some tweaking to get there. There needs to be another step somewhere to get to a pro class, going straight from K45 to K50 I don't think is the long-term answer.

Maybe (again, just thinking outloud again)

-Open C all known
-Open B 1/2 1nd 1/2 as it is now
-Open A and K45 would be equivalent classes, only A is all unknown and 45 is of course all known. If someone wins out of K45 they would not be able to go to Open A as they would be the same level of classes.
-Semi Pro and K 50 would be equivalent classes, both "semi Pro" classes, same winout schedules for both classes
-Open Pro and Known Pro would be equivalent

That would give all Open shooters a nice progression. Open C, a novice class as all known, Open B 50/50, and then shooters could decide their path, all known or all unknown after that.

Of course, the one big drawback would be that initally the Known Pro class would draw away from the Open Pro class, and that isn't really what anyone would want to do, ie watering down the Open Pro class.

Unless of course it could somehow a way could be figured out for Pros to shoot both the Known 50 and Open Pro in the same weekend.......


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

If you broke it down into individual classes - think about that for a second. Each individual class sponsor wouldnt be putting up that much money.

Say Open Pro/Semi/K50.... maybe 2500 dollars minimum, 5K would be nice for each class to spread out and add to the purse.

But think of a class like Open A....heck add an additional 1500 to the pot. Wont make anyone person rich but a few extra hundred for the winner and it trickles down back.

Open C a 1000 extra into the pot.....

Now if a donor said - I want to put 5K extra and I want it designated for Womens Hunter only...so be it. Its their additional money it should go where they want it to. It may be different from shoot to shoot but who cares - would we complain prolly - we are our own worst enemies.

but even local shops/stores/business could swing 1500 in additinal write off for advertising! If they were hit up about it.

The only thing I would ask is they have all of that secured BEFORE the first shoot so people knew what was out there and may plan accordingly.


----------



## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

reylamb said:


> You are on to something here......
> 
> Instead of looking for a million dollar sponsor to sponsor everything, go find multiple sponsors to sponsor individual classes or individual shoots. Sure right now we have the Hoyt Pro Am, the Easton Pro Am, the Mathews Pro Am, etc, etc, etc, but look at the golf model.......the Shell Houston Open, where Shell kicks in the prize money. Go to that tournament and Shell logos are plastered everywhere.
> 
> ...


I like that idea but would like to offer another scenerio to your outline. Bare with me if I'm incorrect. Like I mentioned earlier I'm new to competitve archery so this is what I saw when researching what I was going to do, and what I wish there was. Right now if you move to open equipment you start at open C (all known). If I'm really good at judging with just an above avg shot I may never do well there. Or person two may not know what they want to do but might feel intimidated in B even though they can judge well.

What if you made (keeping the names the same for reference only):

-Open B 1/2 1nd 1/2 as it is now. Entry into open equipment. Right off the bat you can decide your path before moving up to A (unk) or (C knw). 

-Open A unknown / Open C all known 

-Semi Pro and K50 would be equivalent classes

-Open Pro Unkown, Open Pro Known


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

You can shoot in any class your equipment dictates. You by no means have to start in any particular class. So if you are really good at judging, maybe Open B or A would better suit you.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Check out the bowjunky podcast that just got released.


----------



## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

Garceau said:


> You can shoot in any class your equipment dictates. You by no means have to start in any particular class. So if you are really good at judging, maybe Open B or A would better suit you.


I didn't mean you are forced I just meant if you want to start at the bottom and work up. Not being sure what to do and having the "lowest" class being 50/50 would be nice. And it makes for cleaner progression down the road.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Check out the bowjunky podcast that just got released.


Yep. I was just getting ready to suggest the same thing. :thumb:


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Garceau said:


> If you broke it down into individual classes - think about that for a second. Each individual class sponsor wouldnt be putting up that much money.
> 
> Say Open Pro/Semi/K50.... maybe 2500 dollars minimum, 5K would be nice for each class to spread out and add to the purse.
> 
> ...


I intentionally left out bigger money purses for the amateur classes......


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Check out the bowjunky podcast that just got released.


Got a link?


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's on the main BowJunky Page.

www.bowjunky.com

PC40 is the one you want.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

http://bowjunky.podbean.com/mobile/2014/04/03/junkyard-talk-pc40/


----------



## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

I like how they said "pretty strong opinions on both side of the fence". lol

BTW, nice meeting you TMorelli, didn't have much time to talk but it was nice to put a face to a name.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> http://bowjunky.podbean.com/mobile/2014/04/03/junkyard-talk-pc40/


Thanks Tony, Interesting listening. I think they should get more input from guys like Gillingham and Brooks. Longtime 3d pros, Allen said it well though as well.

I myself look forward to the day guys like Gillingham, Levi and Brooks join known 50 Pro class. Cousins has shown how dominate he was in the beginning. I could only imingine how well Levi could shoot all known, watched him win Simms over and over for many years. 

Put the money in the class and those top guns will come show how well they shoot. Field/spot shooters might buy some targets and join the ranks of known 50.
Broadwater had some targets and a little practice I wouldnt be surprised at all he couldnt come close to shooting darn near perfect. We all know how good he is. 

Change is coming but some might not like the change that comes when thousands of dollars is added to the pot.
DB


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Thanks Tony, Interesting listening. I think they should get more input from guys like Gillingham and Brooks. Longtime 3d pros, Allen said it well though as well.
> 
> I myself look forward to the day guys like Gillingham, Levi and Brooks join known 50 Pro class. Cousins has shown how dominate he was in the beginning. I could only imingine how well Levi could shoot all known, watched him win Simms over and over for many years.
> 
> ...


You can not simply turn K50 into a Pro class. I expect one day there will be a Pro Known division but you must keep the steeping stones in place and possibly increase the "win out" amount for K45. There's definitely more to the game of shooting Know distance 3D than shooting spots on paper.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> You can not simply turn K50 into a Pro class. I expect one day there will be a Pro Known division but you must keep the steeping stones in place and possibly increase the "win out" amount for K45. There's definitely more to the game of shooting Know distance 3D than shooting spots on paper.


Listening to the podcast Keith Trail commented he and others want a higher entry fee and pro class. Seems Daniel Mathews was saying the same thing if I heard him right. He said he looks forward to shooting against the top pros today. Be carefull what you wish for!
DB


----------



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Looks like it might happen in Paris. Bowjunky is reporting that ASA will allow Open Pro's to shoot K50 after their round finishes Saturday morning.

I am considering shooting K50 for the first time ever in Paris as well. I haven't been judging distance good this year, so unless I see a bunch of targets soon, I might try K50.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

STRICNINE said:


> I like how they said "pretty strong opinions on both side of the fence". lol
> 
> BTW, nice meeting you TMorelli, didn't have much time to talk but it was nice to put a face to a name.


You too. 

All this talk has gotten my wheels turning on how to grow K50. I think I'm going to give Mike T. a shout tomorrow and bounce an idea off of him on how to promote it internally. 




Daniel Boone said:


> Listening to the podcast Keith Trail commented he and others want a higher entry fee and pro class. Seems Daniel Mathews was saying the same thing if I heard him right. He said he looks forward to shooting against the top pros today. Be carefull what you wish for!
> DB


I happen to think there are a handful of guys in the class that can shoot with anyone. The pro's are pro's because they are especially talented... but that doesn't mean they are the only ones who are. 

This isn't the first time we've asked for this to happen.... it just appears it is the first time that it's gotten any attention.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

shootist said:


> Looks like it might happen in Paris. Bowjunky is reporting that ASA will allow Open Pro's to shoot K50 after their round finishes Saturday morning.
> 
> I am considering shooting K50 for the first time ever in Paris as well. I haven't been judging distance good this year, so unless I see a bunch of targets soon, I might try K50.


Wouldn't this be interesting! Wondering how this would work, shoot 20 known on saturday or all 40!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> You too.
> 
> All this talk has gotten my wheels turning on how to grow K50. I think I'm going to give Mike T. a shout tomorrow and bounce an idea off of him on how to promote it internally.
> 
> ...


You guys calling yourself the working class can match up with the pros as you call them. Known yardage 3d been around for longtime. NFAA had it for many years at indoor nationals and I know who won those events. It wasnt the working class guys. I myself cant wait to see Levi and these guys shoot the known.
DB


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> You guys calling yourself the working class can match up with the pros as you call them. Known yardage 3d been around for longtime. NFAA had it for many years at indoor nationals and I know who won those events. It wasnt the working class guys. I myself cant wait to see Levi and these guys shoot the known.
> DB


I can't wait either. That's what we have been saying all along.

The pros should clearly be favored to win right? They are pros. Some of them make 100% of their incomes shooting their bows....and no, I'm not talking about winnings.... I mean they get paid to play....win or lose.

I've never said or implied I'm a better shooter...or even an equal. I correct people when they call me a pro. However, I know many of the pros personally and have great respect for them. But, I know exactly where I stand and what I'm capable of and I might take offense at how low or little you seem to be implying it is. Those guys are great at what they do...but they are human.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

There is a event that will happen at Paris tx. ...and k50 an open pro....check out searches web site for breaking news


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I can't wait either. That's what we have been saying all along.
> 
> The pros should clearly be favored to win right? They are pros. Some of them make 100% of their incomes shooting their bows....and no, I'm not talking about winnings.... I mean they get paid to play....win or lose.
> 
> I've never said or implied I'm a better shooter...or even an equal. I correct people when they call me a pro. However, I know many of the pros personally and have great respect for them. But, I know exactly where I stand and what I'm capable of and I might take offense at how low or little you seem to be implying it is. Those guys are great at what they do...but they are human.


I dont remember ever mentioning you in any of my statements. I was talking in general. Your diffiantly capable of shooting in a known pro class. Hilburn shot a know course a few years ago at one of the pro ams and beat the pro shooters. Think it was kinda of novelty shoot but none the less he won. My point if you going to have a true pro class allow ever pro out there to come win the top cash because that what pro class is all about. More power to anyone who successful or can get the sponsorships, Im sure they earned it normally sponsorship's are not just given at random. Question is have a known 50 class or have a pro known class! I dont see many paying $250.00 to shoot against the top pros but I might be wrong. Sponsorships will want the numbers there.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

bhtr3d said:


> There is a event that will happen at Paris tx. ...and k50 an open pro....check out searches web site for breaking news


Awesome.
DB


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

What bow companies are or aren't paying contingency in K50?

Hilburn got a nice 500 dollar check from Strother for 2nd place contingency.

I'm not sure on raising the entry, yes the big name guys want it. But what about the blue collar dudes? Wouldn't doubling the participation do about the same for payouts?


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Wouldn't this be interesting! Wondering how this would work, shoot 20 known on saturday or all 40!
> DB


Don't the pros shoot Fri/Sat in Paris?

They would be able to shoot Sat afternoon/Sunday with the other K50 guys.....if my memory is correct.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Yes sir.....they could!


----------



## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

Love to see this and would love to pay the fee to shoot k50 just to shoot and see how I come in


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

reylamb said:


> Don't the pros shoot Fri/Sat in Paris?
> 
> They would be able to shoot Sat afternoon/Sunday with the other K50 guys.....if my memory is correct.


Good point. But they got the shoot downs on sat. as well.
DB


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)




----------



## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

This is gonna get good Morelli!! :thumb:


----------



## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

If the Open Pro shoots the first round on Friday, then the second round on Saturday morning, then the first round of K50 on Saturday afternoon, then........ Pro Shootdown on Saturday evening, and finally............ 2nd round of K50 on Sunday morning, that is a whole lot of shooting packed into one weekend. Not sure who will have the advantage in that situation. I personally am beat after a weekend at the pro/am from shooting team shoot, practice range and the 2 rounds of the pro/am. However, that may just be me getting older.


----------



## perdieu2011 (May 16, 2011)

tagmaster10 said:


> If the Open Pro shoots the first round on Friday, then the second round on Saturday morning, then the first round of K50 on Saturday afternoon, then........ Pro Shootdown on Saturday evening, and finally............ 2nd round of K50 on Sunday morning, that is a whole lot of shooting packed into one weekend. Not sure who will have the advantage in that situation. I personally am beat after a weekend at the pro/am from shooting team shoot, practice range and the 2 rounds of the pro/am. However, that may just be me getting older.


Come on now....Don't be coming up with excuses for the PRO's LOL :wink:


----------



## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not sure if it will be an advantage or a detriment for the pros. I know for me, the last round would be very rough, but for them it may be an advantage because of all the extra shots.


----------



## rodney c. (Mar 20, 2010)

Looks to me like the Paris deal is going to be an exhibition type deal. It will be interesting to watch. Not sure that the whole known pro deal will effect the blue collar boys too much. It's pretty simple....if you belong in K50/Known Pro you will pay the entry fees and take home a check. If not you will filter back to K45

I hear bow junky saying we gotta keeping getting shooters to Pro/Am events but here is my question. At what point do we max out ASA's ability to get ranges set up for record breaking attendance? At what point do you max out your ability to have a quality event. 

When that happens do we start to see shooters filter over and shoot Regions instead of ASA. More shooters is better for our sport but can ASA handle the crowds when we get to 2000 shooters at an event?


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


>


It is on now. Talk about getting what you ask for now they got it. 
DB


----------



## perdieu2011 (May 16, 2011)

All I know is that it is going to be an awesome shoot!!! Myself I am glad that they are doing this! I'll take a whooping by Levi and I'm sure others.......but it is going to be a blast!!


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


>


Hoping the pros jump at this event. This is going to be exciting. Hoping Levi and Brooks and Gillingham and some others jump at this. 
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Approved?

I. Unless approved by the Tournament Director no archer may compete in more than one class at a tournament. 
Anyone found competing with another shooter’s Range Assignment Card will be disqualified.


----------



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

I'm pretty sure since ASA is the ones behind this that it has also been approved by the ASA.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

shootist said:


> I'm pretty sure since ASA is the ones behind this that it has also been approved by the ASA.


Obviously they have and it good for ASA and growing K50.
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Question was posed in the ASA Forums and no reply as of yet.....


----------



## DeepFried (May 15, 2009)

If I started to get into 3d k50 is where I'd be.


----------



## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I am all for doing this shoot and making K50 a Pro class...it should have been long ago! But, are all of the shooters in K50 on board with having the Paris shoot go down this way? The Open Pro guys can't step down a class since K50 ( like it or not ) is still a semi pro class, and they can't compete for placement...so you will have K50 guys that are actually be competing for money and shooter of the year points and then the others ( open pro's ) just shooting amongst us for the heck of it! I am looking forward to a head to head match up and think it would be awesome, but also think that if we are going to do this, a lot more though and detail needs to be put into this than just dink'n around! When we all go to these shoots it is serious and we want to win...I would just hate to see this turn into a goat rope and screw it all up! Let's make sure it is legit and put together in a professional way!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

K50 has always been open to the pros.


----------



## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Man I wish I could make Texas but won't be able to attend this one  Good luck to all!!!!!!

This is great for our class!


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I'd love to see them open up the 14 ring again if the Pros are going to shoot K50.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Good point. But they got the shoot downs on sat. as well.
> DB


Move the shootdown to Sunday....which may cause travel problems at this late of a date....


----------



## gotllamas (Jan 30, 2007)

I am new to the ASA. Paris TX was going to be my first ASA shoot. What I am about to say may be out of line so be kind with the riping. If you want more shooters in the K50 why not combine the K45 and K50. We are talking a difference of 5 yards.From what I have read the classes are set up as stepping stones to the pro class. 5 yards is a pretty small stepping stone. 
As far as contingency money why does PSE have to put all $10,000 into Tims pocket. Why does Elite have to put $12,000 into Levi's pocket. Why can't those purses be broke down and split. Instead of PSE giving $10,000 to one shooter why not break that down to maybe $8,000 to PRO and $2,000 to K50 first place winners.
Well enough venting. Combine K45 and K50. Make it semi-pro (anyone can shoot it), and split the contingency money up. More money for the PRO class and less for SEMI-Pro.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

gotllamas said:


> I am new to the ASA. Paris TX was going to be my first ASA shoot. What I am about to say may be out of line so be kind with the riping. If you want more shooters in the K50 why not combine the K45 and K50. We are talking a difference of 5 yards.From what I have read the classes are set up as stepping stones to the pro class. 5 yards is a pretty small stepping stone.
> As far as contingency money why does PSE have to put all $10,000 into Tims pocket. Why does Elite have to put $12,000 into Levi's pocket. Why can't those purses be broke down and split. Instead of PSE giving $10,000 to one shooter why not break that down to maybe $8,000 to PRO and $2,000 to K50 first place winners.
> Well enough venting. Combine K45 and K50. Make it semi-pro (anyone can shoot it), and split the contingency money up. More money for the PRO class and less for SEMI-Pro.


Change that k45 entry fee from $50 to $125 and watch the numbers drop like a lead balloon. There is more than just a 5 yard difference between the classes.

MFG contingency is determined by the MFG, not by the organization. The Open Pro class has always gotten a higher contingency check than any other class.

No one is stopping MFG from paying contingency in K50, it is just that most MFG have chosen not to.


----------



## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I just ask one thing here guys. Don't make this a pissing contest between k50 and the Pro's. Because the words of some on here whom don't have a stake in this are trying to make it out like it is. The k50 class and the pro's shoot the same course almost every shoot and many times the pro's scores are as good as or better than many k50's scores. Their scores are that good for two reasons (1) they can judge that good and (2) they can shoot that good. (Props) Yes, several of us in k50 are pushing for pro recognition and contingency, I mean can you blame us? DB this isn't watch out for what you wish for thing, it’s about exposure. Look at it this way if the pro's come in and put on a clinic and kick our butts well most will expect it, but if they come in and shoot around the same scores as us or get beat by a few of us then who knows what will be said. In the end we are all competitors and none of us are going to lay down and concede to who ever we shoot against I promise k50 and pro's alike will be shooting to win. I do know one thing I like the fact you don't see k50 guys or pro's on here degrading one another because of respect and professional courtesy. I am with tmorelli on this one some comments on here seem to degrade or make light of the talent in K50 and that does bother me and is just because of lack of knowledge. The Pro's are Pro's for a reason, they've earned it and the K50 class isn't trying to take anything away from them in any way. We are simply trying to achieve more recognition to try to grow the class.

P.S. A big thank you goes out to Strother for paying contingency in K50 and all the other sponsers who do as well. 

Chad Hilburn


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Good post Chad.


----------



## jbuckles39 (Jan 25, 2010)

Where is that like button already! Well said Chad!


----------



## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

okarcher said:


> I just ask one thing here guys. Don't make this a pissing contest between k50 and the Pro's. Because the words of some on here whom don't have a stake in this are trying to make it out like it is. The k50 class and the pro's shoot the same course almost every shoot and many times the pro's scores are as good as or better than many k50's scores. Their scores are that good for two reasons (1) they can judge that good and (2) they can shoot that good. (Props) Yes, several of us in k50 are pushing for pro recognition and contingency, I mean can you blame us? DB this isn't watch out for what you wish for thing, it’s about exposure. Look at it this way if the pro's come in and put on a clinic and kick our butts well most will expect it, but if they come in and shoot around the same scores as us or get beat by a few of us then who knows what will be said. In the end we are all competitors and none of us are going to lay down and concede to who ever we shoot against I promise k50 and pro's alike will be shooting to win. I do know one thing I like the fact you don't see k50 guys or pro's on here degrading one another because of respect and professional courtesy. I am with tmorelli on this one some comments on here seem to degrade or make light of the talent in K50 and that does bother me and is just because of lack of knowledge. The Pro's are Pro's for a reason, they've earned it and the K50 class isn't trying to take anything away from them in any way. We are simply trying to achieve more recognition to try to grow the class.
> 
> P.S. A big thank you goes out to Strother for paying contingency in K50 and all the other sponsers who do as well.
> 
> Chad Hilburn



Well said Chad, and I will add that who doesn't want to compete against the best in our class and the Open Pro class? That's what makes K50 and Open Pro so great, we all have respect for each others abilities and that creates a good atmosphere of completive individuals constantly getting better by playing the game against the best!

This has been my first year in K50 and I couldn't have asked for a better environment to be in, folks debating wheter or not to come to K50 that are known shooters should not hestitate. It's a fun time with some great folks!


----------



## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't understand why guys complain about a bigger entry fee. You will pay 2500$ for a 3d rig pay 800$ to travel somewhere to shoot but won't pay enough of an entry fee to make back some of that money?? Doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

jtelarkin08 said:


> I don't understand why guys complain about a bigger entry fee. You will pay 2500$ for a 3d rig pay 800$ to travel somewhere to shoot but won't pay enough of an entry fee to make back some of that money?? Doesn't make sense to me.


Its that thinking....of dropping that money...and not seeing it again concept....with what you mentioned....you see and know what you are getting.....entry fee is a gamble.......just a psychological thing


----------



## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Ya but that gamble is 1/30th of what you have invested.


----------



## perdieu2011 (May 16, 2011)

This is also my first year in the K50 class.......I was hesitant to shoot this class as well.....but here I am and I'm loving it!!!! Great group of guys!!! I am not against letting the Pros shoot the k50 class after they shoot their rounds!! I think it is an awesome idea and I think it is going to make every one of us in the k50 class step up our game!!!


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Well I will be shooting k50 at least once. But I don't see the advantage having open pros also shoot K50. Am I the only One that has no illusions of one day being an Open Pro? I shot out of K45 last year and now at 51 years of age I either have to shoot K50, Senior Open (all unmarked) or higher.....guys like me coming out of K45 get screwed if the ASA suddenly decides to change the format. Upon further review... IF I shoot ASA this year it will be in Senior Open. Expect to see more guys dropping out of K45 if K50 goes too far towards full pro status. The ASA needs a class between K45 and full pro or at the least double the win out amount for K45.


----------



## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I just have one more question...does this mean we get a Proctor??? Lol Just Kidding!!!


----------



## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I wish that someone would release some details on how this is gonna go down! I wasn't going to hit up Texas, but now I wouldn't miss it! Just hoping that someone will so shed some light as to how this will play out


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

OK - here is how I THINK it will go down.

Open pros will shoot it saturday afternoon only (20 targets) - many already have flights booked for sunday. Secondly I think many are just going to shoot it to inject some interest into it. But Im guessing they will not shoot the 40 target course for a few reasons they may personally have.

It does sound like there are quite a few pros considering it.


----------



## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Is it just me, or has BowJunky's "breaking news" post on this that they posted gone??? Did they remove it from their site?


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

The ones that shoot it want to win the money. They aren't just donating $125.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> I just ask one thing here guys. Don't make this a pissing contest between k50 and the Pro's. Because the words of some on here whom don't have a stake in this are trying to make it out like it is. The k50 class and the pro's shoot the same course almost every shoot and many times the pro's scores are as good as or better than many k50's scores. Their scores are that good for two reasons (1) they can judge that good and (2) they can shoot that good. (Props) Yes, several of us in k50 are pushing for pro recognition and contingency, I mean can you blame us? DB this isn't watch out for what you wish for thing, it’s about exposure. Look at it this way if the pro's come in and put on a clinic and kick our butts well most will expect it, but if they come in and shoot around the same scores as us or get beat by a few of us then who knows what will be said. In the end we are all competitors and none of us are going to lay down and concede to who ever we shoot against I promise k50 and pro's alike will be shooting to win. I do know one thing I like the fact you don't see k50 guys or pro's on here degrading one another because of respect and professional courtesy. I am with tmorelli on this one some comments on here seem to degrade or make light of the talent in K50 and that does bother me and is just because of lack of knowledge. The Pro's are Pro's for a reason, they've earned it and the K50 class isn't trying to take anything away from them in any way. We are simply trying to achieve more recognition to try to grow the class.
> 
> P.S. A big thank you goes out to Strother for paying contingency in K50 and all the other sponsers who do as well.
> 
> Chad Hilburn


Chad have you even listen to the podcast and what was said by the guys (Trail and Mathews) in K50? There the ones who want this and stated it several times! They are all for shooting against the pros. I stand by what I say and thats be carefull what you ask for! You shot against pros in known and won, good pros. I find this may be interesting and some of us me included may be surprised by how well the K50 guys do. Wont know unless we try.
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mark1976 said:


> Is it just me, or has BowJunky's "breaking news" post on this that they posted gone??? Did they remove it from their site?


Noted by a couple now, that it's gone...............


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Glad to see K50 with some headliners attending @ KY. 

Dietmar Trillus
Scott Starnes
Christopher Perkins
Henry Bass
Logan Wilde

Funny that I leave and it looks a lot more like a "pro" class in just one shoot  

I still think class deserves a little more recognition even if it isn't dubbed pro. Which large manufacturer will step up first?


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

None


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Just saw that the real wolf44 (Jasa) showed up too. He's a closet 3d'r.


----------

