# SPT exercises



## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

Whats SPT? thanks


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Training/SPTs/SPTs.html


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

Thanks


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Bean, the reason for the spt's are to build the skills. Do them as you need them. Don't strain, and don't break form in order to get the spt. If you can't handle the time, do what you can and try to increase over time....don't push it too hard. So many insist on being strong enough to hang with the best, but the best got there by taking form first, strength second.

And yes, the strength ones are done full rig. The flexibility ones (over head, etc) can be done without the full rig for space and convenienience reasons. Nothing like wheelding a 3 foot stabilizer to break stuff arround you.


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

Huntmaster said:


> Bean, the reason for the spt's are to build the skills. Do them as you need them. Don't strain, and don't break form in order to get the spt. If you can't handle the time, do what you can and try to increase over time....don't push it too hard. So many insist on being strong enough to hang with the best, but the best got there by taking form first, strength second.
> 
> And yes, the strength ones are done full rig. The flexibility ones (over head, etc) can be done without the full rig for space and convenienience reasons. Nothing like wheelding a 3 foot stabilizer to break stuff arround you.


I've got a little shooting range at home so space isn't an issue.

I think I'm doing pretty well with them, they are physically draining but I'm making sure I do them properly.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

SPT's are important, but I would keep the order in which you do them. Over time the "weaker" ones will catch up. Make sure you are doing them correctly, never hurts to have a refresher from your coach or go online.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I would say do them all equally. They're all beneficial and complement each other. What you want to remember is that you don't want to over do one of the exercises and cause injury.

I wish Coach Lee would put up video of each exercise rather than just the two photos he has there. It would be nice to be able to see each of the exercises done correctly so that a student may more easily imitate the action.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Quality not quantity thats the key.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed on the videos. I wish USArchery had it's own youtube channel, where we could watch videos on the NTS.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Agreed on the videos. I wish USArchery had it's own youtube channel, where we could watch videos on the NTS.


Yes, yes, and yes. 

Lack of training tools and information for archers is one of the key deficiencies in the USA Archery program. I understand the emphasis on instructor and coach training, but all of that needs material to back it up. USA Archery needs to post _exemplars_ (idealized models, not the personalized variations we see in top archers) of SPT and and NTS on-line. The training materials for USA Archery should not be the privately published book by coach lee (or little manuals that instructors are have to write up for their students because there is nothing from USA Archery to handout to students), but official USA Archery materials available to everyone free on-line, and for purchase as printed manuals. The L1/L2 manual is nicely done for what it is. I think there should be a student version of it. And since it is really hard to learn motion from still pictures, they need on-line video examples as a supplement. All it takes, for goodness sake, is a cell phone or consumer camera and a tripod.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've always seen the for-profit publication of books on what has essentially become the NTS, using OTC archers and staff coaches, as a conflict of interest. Just like any products or ideas I generate on the job become the property of the U.S. Gov't (yes, I had to sign a form that said this when I started my gov't career), the products and ideas that are generated on the job, using the OTC facilities and archers and volunteers, should be the property of USArchery. 

I know some who will fundamentally disagree with me on this, and it's not a personal attack by any means. Just a philosophy to make sure we don't have conflicts of interest.

So, yes, surely all the development of the NTS should be available to the membership. We paid for it one way or the other...

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I've always seen the for-profit publication of books on what has essentially become the NTS, using OTC archers and staff coaches, as a conflict of interest. Just like any products or ideas I generate on the job become the property of the U.S. Gov't (yes, I had to sign a form that said this when I started my gov't career), the products and ideas that are generated on the job, using the OTC facilities and archers and volunteers, should be the property of USArchery.


That was my first thought when Inside the Archer came out, that for many of us, our employer owns the rights to any work-related IP we come up with during our employment contract. Not so, it seems, for Lee, who splits profits on the self-published book 50/50 with his co-author. I wouldn't necessarily want to begrudge him that *if* USA Archery had any official training materials at the same level, but they don't. They don't have **any** training material on their site--for anyone, not archers, not coaches, not even a link to Coach Lee's KSL site. Nothing. It is an amazing omission. Makes sense if all you are is a marketing arm for the Olympics, but not so much if you are a grass roots organization promoting archery.

In the past, I asked the head of NADA if they would post the L1/L2 manual on line. He responded a tad indignantly (kind of his MO when posting on AT) that of course NADA would not post "coach training material" on line--even though it was authored by the NAA and not NADA (though apparently laid out and published by NADA). He seemed to think he was in the pamphlet selling business rather than the coach certification business. Now USA Archery *owns* NADA, so they could just post the manual as PDF, and they could modify it slightly and make a student version and post it on line. The L1/L2 manual is one of the best general overviews of archery. One can argue about the way it teaches NTS, with the version I learned on teaching summer camp counselors to teach their kids "transfer and hold", which, uhm, is way too advanced for L1 (I think that has been eliminated from the manual--*but how would I know?? *I can't just look up the current version on line... grrr....)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't presume to know what the details are in the contracts of our staff at USArchery. They could have - and surely did - cover this. Presumably in a different way than it was covered by our employers, but I can see where it wouldn't be precedent-setting either. University professors write books all the time. I'm sure this was a similar arrangement, but at some point, there will be no farm left for USArchery to give away...

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I don't presume to know what the details are in the contracts of our staff at USArchery. They could have - and surely did - cover this. Presumably in a different way than it was covered by our employers, but I can see where it wouldn't be precedent-setting either. University professors write books all the time. I'm sure this was a similar arrangement, but at some point, there will be no farm left for USArchery to give away...
> 
> John


Coach Lee is a smart and capable man, who came to the job with an existing system, book and a website. So I'd imagine that he was careful to make sure he could keep doing that. It would make sense. But for USA Archery to cede the USA Archery instructional material to Lee's private profit making is another thing entirely. The fundraising prospectus for the initial press run of the book noted that among the reasons investors could expect a return on their investment was that Coach Lee's influence would be used to get the book to be made required material for the RA program, or something to that effect. That, frankly, isn't that different from university professors all round the country who write texbooks and assign them as required reading for their students--so I don't necessarily see it as unethical of him to use his influence with USA Archery to sell more copies of his book. His privately published books are *always* the only current books on his system, after all. However, college professors are different than the US National Coach. A textbook for a college media studies class or what not isn't the same thing as the official textbook for a "National Training System". A "National Training System" owned by USA Archery should have its own national standards and training materials, not rely on re-purposing privately published, outside materials. If coach Lee had time to write a book on the KSL shot cycle for himself, should he have had time to write one for USA Archery? (Though I suspect most of the hard work done in writing the book was by his capable co-author.)

If the NTS is really USA Archery's system rather than the Coach Lee system, which will leave when he does, then USA Archery needs its own training materials, ones not owned by Coach Lee or his co-authors.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Agreed on the videos. I wish USArchery had it's own youtube channel, where we could watch videos on the NTS.


I'm going to Chula Vista in December, I'll mention it to Coach Lee.

TAO


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Please do. If his intent is to truly share his knowlege with all archers so they can get better, than this will not be a problem. If his intent is to sell more books and share the knowlege only with those who attend the seminars and camps, then I guess we'll know that too.

Personally, a series of well made videos would be 100 times more useful than his books.

John


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Can we please, please, please make this happen? I'd even volunteer to do the filming and post if we can make it a reality.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think it just kinda depends on whether the "IP" is considered property of coach Lee, USArchery (which, in my opinion, it should be if he's employed by them) or if it's available for everyone. I've seen mixed signals in the past, leading me to believe it's all three, or none of these, depending on the day...

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I think it just kinda depends on whether the "IP" is considered property of coach Lee, USArchery (which, in my opinion, it should be if he's employed by them) or if it's available for everyone. I've seen mixed signals in the past, leading me to believe it's all three, or none of these, depending on the day...
> 
> John


I really hope folks can make this happen. To me it is a no brainer. If the goal is to teach then the information needs to be as widely distributed as possible, and videos are a better method to demonstrate motion than a book. If the goal is to hoard information or profit from selling it directly to the public then not providing videos or any official USA training materials would be the way to go. :embara:



But, as you say, what do management see as the goal? I know for NADA they saw their business as selling pamphlets rather than educating as many people as possible. Coach Lee has a lot of free information on his website (which, curiously, USA Archery doesn't link to, **at all** and, AFIK, never has, which is really, really weird since they don't have any alternate source of info on Coach Lee's system) so it seems that he should be amenable to video demonstrations, and yet he doesn't have any on his own site. :dontknow:

Here is KSL International's mission statement:



> Coaching without Borders
> 
> To provide access to and share high performance coaching information, techniques, technical articles, form photos, data and training systems with those coaches and archers around the world who wish to enhance their skills and knowledge, be it at Beginner, Elite or Olympic level. We will share this information through the use of the electronic and printed media, seminars and hands on coaching camps.


Sounds like he ought to have videos on a YouTube channel already, if that is really his mission.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, it's kind of a mystery what the intent is. And, who "owns" the IP if his method and materials were developed on site at the OTC using USOC/USArchery sponsored athletes. It gets very complicated... I always wonder if/when the non-profit implications kick in. I mean, if a non-profit organization's facilities and staff are being used to create for-profit materials, isn't that illegal? Even things like the Astra shot trainer is advertised as being developed at the OTC. Where are those profits going then? I'm sure if it was illegal, then someone woud have cried foul by now. Not saying it is, but I certainly don't understand how it isn't. 
John


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

John,

But who would be the one to cry foul? The sorts of things you are alluding to would most likely be investigated as the result of a tip to the Fraud, Waste and Abuse process. Since you work for the governmnt, perhaps this is familiar to you. I'm not saying it's illegal either - you guys would have much better opinions on that, since you're closer to the source. But the point is that lots of things go on in lots of places that are either illegal and/or unethical, but it'll either be overlooked or ignored until someone blows the whistle. In a non-profit like USAA, it's unlikely to come from outside, because it's just not a big enough, intrusive enough, or offensive enough (to some people) organization to generate the kind of animosity that might result in an audit or "anonymous tips" that another government or quasi-government organization might have. And internally, if the organization's focus is strictly on archery, perhaps they simply don't have someone on staff who sees these things in that light.

We (as the greater, general, human "we") all too often foreget that something that is "common sense" to me, isn't necessarily so obvious to someone with a different set of experiences, background, priorities, training, education, etc. I'd like to hope that all of the complaints expressed here are simply the result of USAA not knowing that there's a demand signal for these things. But, again, I'm not as close to that organization as many of you, so I might be way wrong there.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I have no thoughts on the legality of it, but I think certainly a part of the lack of information is probably staffing and budget. It might be seen as 'pro-active' and typically when everyone in an organization is busy or there isn't enough money to go around as it is, 'pro-active' tasks tend to fall by the wayside just to keep your head above water.

I know there have been threads talking about how the USAA is nickel and diming the membership, but having access to a quality source of information on the NTS (videos on form, bulletins on changes, white papers, common issues and injuries, etc) would definitely be something that I would pay for. Make it good, keep it updated, and I'd be willing to pay $50 a year on top of my membership just for access.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

M,

There is a lot that is discussed here that the leadership in USArchery is completely unaware of. And that's fine. It's not their job to monitor discussion forums. As for who would cry foul? I don't know. Someone who had "enough" and wanted it investigated, I guess. I think that coach Lee is a very intelligent man and surely would have made sure the ability for him to continue to "own" his products and IP was part of his contract with USArchery. Surely he would have known he would be producing a 2nd volume to his book, and would want to keep those profits instead of seeing them go back to the USOC or USArchery. Where the line gets blurred, IMO, is when clearly for-profit interests (sponsors, private companies) use the RA's - who are effectively USArchery/USOC "employees" and the facilities of the non-profit USOC to develop and produce products for their own profit. Heck, one could argue that they've used volunteer coaches and students to further the development of these products, without any contracts or compliance or waivers by those being used as a testing pool. 

I'm not trying to or willing to accuse anyone of wrongdoing at all. I hope and expect that all these concerns about financial gain, IP and non-profit status are worked out beforehand and everything is above board...

But at the end of the day, if the IRS has bigger fish to fry, then they just simply overlook "small" matters such as these.

But more "on topic" - whatever needs to happen to get good quality instructional videos out to the masses should be done. I understand, from a source who should know, that one instructional video was attempted and it turned out to be a disaster, creating more harm than good because coach Lee was not personally involved to produce the video. So, without his involvement, I'm not going to want any of this information rushed out on video.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> But more "on topic" - whatever needs to happen to get good quality instructional videos out to the masses should be done. I understand, from a source who should know, that one instructional video was attempted and it turned out to be a disaster, creating more harm than good because coach Lee was not personally involved to produce the video. So, without his involvement, I'm not going to want any of this information rushed out on video.
> 
> John


Well, I've go the "BEST Beginings" video by Don Rabska and the non-profit Easton Sports Foundation--I don't know if it is related to the video you are talking about. BEST Beginings is a tutorial video that also features a discussion with Coach Lee, so it was made in cooperation with USA Archery and Coach Lee. It was a DVD for coaches teaching what was then "BEST Method" and it was to have a companion book. Because KSL Shot Cycle/BEST Method/NTS is a moving target the video was out of date before it was even published, and the production of the companion book was abandoned. The DVD and book were made for those of us teaching archery to beginners and intermediate archers in JOAD programs as opposed to RAs. They were not highly technical and expensive book for elite shooters and coaches. 

I was very disappointed to see the attempt to make accessible USA Archery coaching information available fail--an attempt that was given up on, I speculate, in part because it was largely supplanted by Coach Lee's privately published, for profit book. Coach Lee's for profit books always seem to manage to be the only current information on the "Whatever it is called today" system taught by USA Archery.

I believe that Easton Sports Foundation *donated* the DVDs to USA Archery so they could be sold by USA Archery to raise money. Inside the Archer, not so much. (Not that I'm not grateful to have a copy of Inside the Archer, it is an important book--more so because there is no official training material at that level by USA Archery). I don't believe that any of the money from Inside the Archer goes to USA Archery, but unless USA Archery pays Tyler a salary, or gives him significantly more benefits than he pays for, I wouldn't expect any of his end of the profits to go to USA Archery. 

I've got a copy of BEST Beginnings if anyone wants to see it, though it is perhaps now more of historical interest than instructional interest--though I think most of what it teaches is still valid.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Well, I've go the "BEST Beginings" video by Don Rabska and the non-profit Easton Sports Foundation--I don't know if it is related to the video you are talking about. BEST Beginings is a tutorial video that also features a discussion with Coach Lee, so it was made in cooperation with USA Archery and Coach Lee. It was a DVD for coaches teaching what was then "BEST Method" and it was to have a companion book. Because KSL Shot Cycle/BEST Method/NTS is a moving target the video was out of date before it was even published, and the production of the companion book was abandoned. The DVD and book were made for those of us teaching archery to beginners and intermediate archers in JOAD programs as opposed to RAs. They were not highly technical and expensive book for elite shooters and coaches.
> 
> I was very disappointed to see the attempt to make accessible USA Archery coaching information available fail--an attempt that was given up on, I speculate, in part because it was largely supplanted by Coach Lee's privately published, for profit book. Coach Lee's for profit books always seem to manage to be the only current information on the "Whatever it is called today" system taught by USA Archery.
> 
> ...


I agree. I still use BEST Beginnings for my Basic Archery Class I teach at Victoria College and it works well and as you say is still valid.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No, not the video I'm referring to.

the *non-profit* "Easton" Sports Foundation... Think about that for a minute...

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> No, not the video I'm referring to.


Wow. So there is more than one video that has died as the result of the lack of a coherent training plan :mg:



limbwalker said:


> the *non-profit* "Easton" Sports Foundation... Think about that for a minute...
> 
> John


Not sure what to make of it. Non-profit, in and of itself, doesn't mean good or bad.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Think a little more... You'll get there... 

The video I'm referring to died when the "adult supervision" realized the help was working unsupervised... As it should have.

I just wish the adult supervision would finally decide what they are in this for. The money, or the sport.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Think a little more... You'll get there...


I dunno. When I was a kid my dad asked me "How do you keep a turkey in suspense?" I said "I don't know. How do you keep a turkey in suspense?" "I'll tell you tomorrow." The next day I said, "Dad, it's tomorrow. What's the answer? How do you keep a turkey in suspense?"

I can be a tad slow sometimes... :embara:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TomB said:


> I agree. I still use BEST Beginnings for my Basic Archery Class I teach at Victoria College and it works well and as you say is still valid.


I should have asked this earlier. How do you use it?


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I should have asked this earlier. How do you use it?


After a couple of weeks of shooting so they have context, I show Best Beginnings as well as select videos of people doing their shot process correctly. Ironically the Athens Olympic video is what I use most often in conjunction with the Best Beginnings DVD.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

The Next Level video series by Brady Ellison?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

kshet26 said:


> The Next Level video series by Brady Ellison?


Gotta say that instruction is not as good as I had hoped. There is some solid information in the video and they are worth checking out, but the videos are over produced with close ups that are way too short (though you can pause the video), jump cut together and divided into too many segments with fancy graphic interstitial bumpers you have to fast forward through. Brady is not as experienced as an instructor as he is as an archer. The videos represent just another fragmentation of the USA Archery NTS instruction, which highlights the lack of official instruction materials by USA Archery.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TomB said:


> After a couple of weeks of shooting so they have context, I show Best Beginnings as well as select videos of people doing their shot process correctly. Ironically the Athens Olympic video is what I use most often in conjunction with the Best Beginnings DVD.


Thanks. It is interesting to know what tools and techniques other folks are using.

It would be nice if USA Archery would train up someone and post video of them demonstrating an officially approved exemplar of the system--a model that is designed to show the system in its most idealized form rather than the personalized adaptations that top archers use. I'm not saying that person needs to shoot that way when they train or shoot in competition, but that they should be able to model it for demonstration purposes. It is part of breaking down the system to teach it--even if NTS is adaptable, it needs to have a clear starting point which adaptations are made from--not that top archers real shooting styles are bad examples, just that their personalization of NTS are not part of the model and we (well, I) need clear examples of which is which... 

It would also be nice if they kept a version history of the system, the way software does, to show when they make changes and why. It would be good to know if I'm teaching the Windows Vista version of BEST/NTS or the Windows 8 version...or if it would be better to roll back to NT :dontknow: (Is there a open source Linux version of BEST?)


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Warbow said:


> It would also be nice if they kept a version history of the system, the way software does, to show when they make changes and why. It would be good to know if I'm teaching the Windows Vista version of BEST/NTS or the Windows 8 version...or if it would be better to roll back to NT :dontknow: (Is there a open source Linux version of BEST?)


Yeah some technical bulletins would be nice. Whenever a JOAD comes back from a camp, it's clear how much they change the technique from what's in ITA. I can go through the chapters and point out things that are no longer 'correct'.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

kshet26 said:


> Yeah some technical bulletins would be nice. Whenever a JOAD comes back from a camp, it's clear how much they change the technique from what's in ITA. I can go through the chapters and point out things that are no longer 'correct'.


Yeah, I think there is a problem when they are rolling out the techniques to the students first and not the teachers--not that the JOAD kids are anything but the most important part of JOAD who may exceed local expertise, but they are being sent back to their regular instruction/coaching program without care and feeding instructions for their new NTS techniques.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Yeah, I think there is a problem when they are rolling out the techniques to the students first and not the teachers--not that the JOAD kids are anything but the most important part of JOAD who may exceed local expertise, but they are being sent back to their regular instruction/coaching program without care and feeding instructions for their new NTS techniques.


And have been for some time now... This is a problem with the current training system for coaches. The "real" NTS coaches of the future will be the former JDT's and RA's. 

When one of my students was able to make a few JDT camps without me in 2007, I told him I could no longer be his personal coach. He was shocked. I agreed that I could continue to help him with his equipment and his mental preparations, but I no longer recognized the technique he was being taught to use, and therefore, he was going to have to make a coaching change. It took some time, and a great deal of discussion to convince him of this. He didn't want to find a new personal coach, but I insisted that he did, and that he stayed with the program too. I don't think he's ever forgiven me for that, but for the sake of his shooting, it was the best thing for me to do. 

It put me in a very awkward position as a personal coach, and I've talked to many more personal coaches that have had to deal with the same thing. Many of us simply cannot afford to travel to the OTC to attend enough camps to stay "current" on this seemingly ever-changing method, which leaves very few coaches that are (IMO) qualified to be personal coaches for these archers.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> And have been for some time now... This is a problem with the current training system for coaches. The "real" NTS coaches of the future will be the former JDT's and RA's.


The ones that don't drop out...

...which is a problem. Because those who will be left are the ones who managed to survive the system who may make up a non-representative sample of people who might think the program's techniques are right for everybody even if they actually are not. If, for instance, you were to subject JDT and RA program archers to being whacked them in the head with an oar, some would drop out, but those that stay in the program may get the idea that going through what they did is key to the program. It is potential recipe for sycophancy--not saying that is what will happen, mind you, but that that the number of people the JDT and RA programs have chewed up skews the population somewhat.


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