# Kisser button placement



## rmh181 (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi all,

Got a question for you guys that tinker/setup bows. I have shot an old Hoyt Havoctech for the past 10 yrs or so, 32" ATA. A few weeks ago I bought the new Hoyt Carbon Element (32" ATA) and have been having a bit of trouble w/ the new setup. One day I shoot great out to 40, the next day not so much....and I also began experiencing occasional creeping with the new bow. The timing of the cams appears to be perfect, so naturally, the focus became form related. What am I doing that I'm not realizing that's causing the swings in accuracy from day to day, potentially the creeping, etc. Long story short, the more I've focused on form, etc it appears the issue may be with the height of my new kisser button above my release loop....it seems to be high and is causing me to "search" forward for the kisser button further up the string, which I believe is why I'm having some accuracy issues and also causing the creeping. 

My question is, is there a set height off your release loop that most kisser buttons should be installed or is it a individual thing? I would think, if I was going from a 32" ATA bow, to a newer 32" bow that the kisser height up from the release loop would be about the same for my style, is that correct? So, on my old Hoyt the kisser was at 1.5", the new bow should be pretty darn close to 1.5". Well, the new bow is at 2.25". 

I've done a lot of research online about the issue and it seems a general consensus that it's best to have someone watch you draw back and settle into the peep and site then mark the kisser location w/ chalk or whatever. Do a few times to make sure it's correct, then tie it in. The shop I bought the bow from did not do this for me. They didn't mark any kisser placement at all. They were in the middle of a move to a new location, so there 'bow guy' watched me pull the un-setup bow back a few times, took the bow back to his home, supposedly placed the peep and kisser locations based on my old bow that I left with him, and I picked it up the next day. The guy I bought it from was a nice guy, 3D shooter for Hoyt, seemed pretty knowledgeable but the setting up of the bow wasn't the best of experiences since they couldn't do it there, had no range, and I had to go back and forth an hr to get it...but was the only shop close by that had a CO in stock to buy at the time so I had to take it so I could get shooting. 

Any suggestions from you guys? AFter drawing it back over and over as I started trying to figure it out, the kisser location simply does not feel right...it feels way too far up the string. I don't know how to move a kisser button either, is that something I can do on my own, if so how? Thanks very much.


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## SET THE HOOK (Dec 30, 2004)

I always set them at a 1 1/8 when i used them, that should put you in the right spot, might want to post some form pic's..to see whats going on.


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## Fletcher43 (Aug 30, 2005)

Get rid of the kisser.As long as you have a round pin gaurd just center the circle(peephole) on the circle(Pin gaurd) ..You can't get anymore lined up then that!!!.Kisser is a crutch that you don't need JMO


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

Creeping-------I experienced the same thing-------dropped my draw 1/2" problem solved. Side note too much poundage for you can also be the cause------but I bet it is more the draw length. I don't care what you "have always" shot for a draw length try it a 1/2" shorter you might be suprised. You need to hold completely into the draw stops ALL of the time.
Kisser button as a rule for me and MY customers a thumb width up from the nock point.
The difference from one day to the next on how you shoot has nothing to do with the bow at all------it has everything to do with you, your not consistent. The bow does not change overnight back and forth-----only you do.:wink:


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## bwlacy (Mar 28, 2009)

Dale_B1 said:


> Creeping-------I experienced the same thing-------dropped my draw 1/2" problem solved. Side note too much poundage for you can also be the cause------but I bet it is more the draw length. I don't care what you "have always" shot for a draw length try it a 1/2" shorter you might be suprised. You need to hold completely into the draw stops ALL of the time.
> Kisser button as a rule for me and MY customers a thumb width up from the nock point.
> The difference from one day to the next on how you shoot has nothing to do with the bow at all------it has everything to do with you, your not consistent. The bow does not change overnight back and forth-----only you do.:wink:


I have to agree with Dale. When I bought my 82nd I was having some issues. I had always shot 28 inch bows, but I had to put a 27.5 module on the 82nd to stay on the draw stops and my shooting really improved.


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## paheadhunter (Apr 12, 2011)

I do agree with Dale also....something I started doing now that I am setting my bows up myself is I first put my new strings on and get my rest on and timed as well as set my nock height. Then I go shoot it for about 10-15 minutes just to check everything and make sure it feels good. Then I come back and put on my kisser first (I use eliminator buttons cause I just like that little bit hitting the corner for me) So I put the kisser on and pull back a few times and make sure I anchor and settle for what is comfortable. Once I have that done I tie in my kisser with and go shoot it a little more just to make sure I'm set there. Then I put my peep in and do the same process. Shoot it, make sure its coming back straight and everything is settled. Then I tie it in.....and with a good set of strings I never have much to worry about after that


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## rmh181 (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks for the responses....I forgot to mention in my original post that I did drop my draw length on the new bow from 29 to 28.5 and am still having the occasional problem w/ creeping. Poundage is very comfortable for me at 60 lbs (max draw weight of bow), my anchor points are the same I've used for the past 10+ years. I've shot bows long enough to know that when they get "inconsistent" like that it's probably form related to me, not the bow. 

But I really think the issue is w/ my kisser placement on the new setup. If using a thumbs-distance is a common starting pt, my old bow kisser was 1.5 thumbs. This new setup is at least 2.5 thumbs up from knock pt. The having to move my face too far forward to find the kisser I think is causing me to come out of appropriate T-form when at full draw and the cams are then wanting to get going down range as soon as I come off the back wall at all. I thought about pulling the kisser button off but I'm guessing my peep will still be too high up the string since it's placement was 6" up from the kisser (same as my old bow). I'll know more when I pull it back a few times again today.

Can I move the peep site once it's been installed? I'm gonna try and get a hold of guy I know from church that's pretty good w/ tinkering w/ bows and see if he might be willing to help me out. Anyother suggestions would be great! I'll try and post a pic of my draw. Thanks again.


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## rmh181 (Jul 25, 2011)

Sorry, I mis-typed....my peep is 4" above my kisser button on both bows, not 6".


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## rmh181 (Jul 25, 2011)

Ok, so I drew the bow back a few times w/ my eyes closed in the garage, settled into my anchor pt, opened my eyes and my kisser is way too far up the string (more than an inch too far per my wife). I know some said to ditch the kisser which I could do...but if I did that I'd like to pick up another anchor pt such as the string to the tip of nose to help keep me consistent. 

If I settle in to my "natural form" w/ eyes closed, open my eyes my nose is not touching the string but the peep and site lines up perfectly....it feels most natural to me. If I move my head forward a little so my nose tip touches the string, my peep is then too high (about 1-1.5"). I know some guys like to touch the string to the nose, some don't as an added anchor pt. When at full draw to where I felt comfortable and ignored the kisser button placement I had zero creeping after drawing and holding 10+ times. I'm convinced, it's the kisser issue throwing my form out of wack. 

So, I guess the question from here is do I:

1-adjust the kisser lower to where it should be and have to find someone that can help me readjust my peep lower.
2-remove the kisser button completely, do not touch the string to the tip of my nose, and leave the peep where it is and basically lose an anchor pt and don't pick up another
3-adjust/remove the kisser lower, pick up an additional anchor pt on the string w/ the tip of my nose, and have to have someone adjust my peep lower

For you archery/form gurus.....if you were coaching me, what would you say I should do? I'm inclined to keep the kisser and peep and make the adjustments though it's bad news for me cuz I'll have to find a guy to help me adjust it. At a minimum I would think if I'm to give up the kisser (remove it entirely) I should make myself pick up another one on the tip of the nose, which means adjustments anyways. I do have a site ring on my bow site that helps anchor thru my peep nicely, so perhaps that could be the 2nd anchor for me...and I could forget the pro-shop adjustments. Thoughts? Thanks for your patience fellas, just looking for some direction here.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

I set my last one for 1 1/4" above ceneter of the nock. With a shorter bow, that just seems to work out best for me.


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## Fletcher43 (Aug 30, 2005)

I would loose the kisser and move your peep down til its the right heigth.Touching you nose to the string I would HIGHLY,Highly suggest.Really all that matters is you lining up the peep with your scope or pin guard.....Anchor,touch you nose and circle on the circle...simple as that....(alos watch your level)


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## Fletcher43 (Aug 30, 2005)

Look at the archers in the lancaster add at the top of the page?Do you see a kisser?are all of there noses touching?


Fletcher43 said:


> I would loose the kisser and move your peep down til its the right heigth.Touching you nose to the string I would HIGHLY,Highly suggest.Really all that matters is you lining up the peep with your scope or pin guard.....Anchor,touch you nose and circle on the circle...simple as that....(alos watch your level)


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## rmh181 (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks guys....some good advice. I could probably go either way w/ losing the kisser button though I've shot one for the past 10 yrs (always open to trying something different if it's going to help me). I feel in my gutt though that if I'm going to give up the kisser anchor pt, I should find another one to help my form stay solid. I saw some youtube videos online about how to tie in a peep site (since it'll need moved if I do the nose tip to string method...and I've never tied anything to my bow). 

If I need to slide the peep down say 1" so that I can see through it when i touch the tip of my nose to the string.....is that something you think I can do myself? If so how....I would assume, it's just find a "gentle" way to cut the serving off my bow string, then follow the youtube vids for tying the knotts after the peep is realigned. Tips would be helpful...

Tx again!


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Fletcher43 said:


> Look at the archers in the lancaster add at the top of the page?Do you see a kisser?are all of there noses touching?


That doesnt mean squat. They are shooting targets, not hunting. 

Everyone is different. I still use the tip of my nose as another anchor point but as long as a kisser has served me well, which has been many years, I'll keep using them.

During a hunting application, steep and/or difficult shot angles from a treestand, a kisser has saved the day for me more times than I can remember. 

To the OP, use a kisser if thats what you've been doing. There is no disadvantage to them what so ever.


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## bwlacy (Mar 28, 2009)

I'd tell you to keep the kisser and put it in the correct spot. Then move the peep to where you need it so when you open your eyes it's all lined up. Don't try sliding the peep without a press. Your peep can cut the string, and you don't want that. I've used a kisser and peep for years for hunting. I don't shoot a kisser for spots or 3D, but I won't hunt without one. I'd go without a peep before a kisser. I hunted for years with no peep and only a kisser, no shooting problems at all.


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## SET THE HOOK (Dec 30, 2004)

Fletcher43 said:


> Look at the archers in the lancaster add at the top of the page?Do you see a kisser?are all of there noses touching?


yeah, doesnt mean squat!! alot of very good shooter use a kisser button of some sort. some very good shooters dont touch there nose to the string either.


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

Move the kisser to your anchor point----------forget about the nose touching the string(this is not an issue) as some bows because of axle to axle and draw length will never happen anyway. If you adjust the kisser to your anchor point(which the kisser is set wrong anyway) you will not need to adjust your peep. You already proved that yourself with your eyes closed and open and your wife confirming the kisser is set too high.


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## rmh181 (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks everyone....appreciate the responses Dale. You are correct, the peep and site ring, much to my surprise aligned perfectly when ignoring the current kisser position. I was stacking arrows nicely out to 40 yards the past few days w/o the use of a kisser that's too far up the string. 

I did run over to Dicks Sunday and bought a new kisser button (same size/style as the one on there) and a clamping tool to redo it. The current kisser is on there w/ 2 lil' clamps that are pinched on, any suggestions on "easy" ways to remove the lil' clamps carefully w/o damaging the bow string so I can put my new kisser on? I haven't done it yet but assume I just need to find a way to carefully pry them open a little bit to get them off. 

Tx!


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## dravesarchery (Dec 15, 2009)

You should check out our Komfort Kiss button! We like to use a "rule of thumb" when putting on your kiss button. Maybe this video will help answer some of you questions


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## Dale_B1 (Jan 31, 2004)

Use your new clamp tool to remove the old peep clamps. Just pinch the clamp where they come together but do it with care.


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