# Rhomboid issues?



## EPLC

It seems my rhomboids are only good for so many shots and then they say, "I quit, I'm not doing this any more" and then they shut down. When this happens my shot process goes into my arms and shoulders. Since my arms and shoulders are strong and in good shape they can shoot many arrows for long periods without fatigue setting in. The problem is that my arms and shoulders don't shoot as well. I think this may be the source of the slumps that I get myself into as I end up training the wrong muscles by shooting this way.

So, my question is: What's the best way to build stamina into the rhomboids? What I've been doing isn't achieving the desired effect. For now, I'm going to stop shooting when I feel them giving out... which is probably the answer I'm looking for but what say you?


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## ILOVE3D

This might help you some, here is a link to 10 exercises for the back and shoulder muscles. I think I got it off here in AT somewhere. It's going to take a little time to build them (rhomboids) up a bit but these should help all your shoulder and back muscles you use in shooting your bow.

http://www.bowhunter.com/bow-fitness/workout-routines-for-bowhunters/


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## Bees

EPLC said:


> It seems my rhomboids are only good for so many shots and then they say, "I quit, I'm not doing this any more" and then they shut down. When this happens my shot process goes into my arms and shoulders. Since my arms and shoulders are strong and in good shape they can shoot many arrows for long periods without fatigue setting in. The problem is that my arms and shoulders don't shoot as well. I think this may be the source of the slumps that I get myself into as I end up training the wrong muscles by shooting this way.
> 
> So, my question is: What's the best way to build stamina into the rhomboids? What I've been doing isn't achieving the desired effect. For now, I'm going to stop shooting when I feel them giving out... which is probably the answer I'm looking for but what say you?


http://www.ehow.com/how_5189093_build-muscle-after.html

to build muscle they say start with light weights and work up to heavier weight.
maybe turn bow poundage down to shoot more and eventually work your way up.
your trying to build up your rhomboid muscles, and they aren't used to being used, so go slow.
mine still get sore if I shoot a lot in one day.


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## SonnyThomas

Not having a good time with ArcheryTalk tonight. Minutes for reply to take, won't show, give error message Page Can't be Displayed. So a double post and some corrections or additions.

I right there with you. First, I'd advise a doctor check up just to make sure something isn't what it should be.

And my story;
"You're left hand, shoot left handed." Wife bought me a left handed Fred Bear Whitetail II. Bow felt good with weight turned down, but second week of shooting left handed my left shoulder separated, torn rhomboids or group. Muscles swelled to the point they cut off the nerve or bundle of nerves to the arm, same nerve or bundle of nerves where people have surgery, Carpal and Cubical (I've had both, left hand and elbow). Lost the use of left arm. I was scared to death. Muscles swelled to the point my neck shoved out of place. 6 weeks later I got the use of my arm back along with having my neck stretched daily to get it to go back where it should be. Scar tissue left me with a pretty good clunk along my shoulder blade. It's sort of went away, but I know where it's at.

Before I retired in 2003 I was gaging a part inside my machine and slipped. Managed to catch myself and still hold on to a gage 54" long. I tore muscles from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. Think multiple degree sunburn. Rushed to the hospital, everyone thinking I was having a heart attack. I couldn't raise my arms to take off my shirt so the doctor cut it right up the middle of the back. They gave me enough shots I was goofy. Nothing can really be done except let heal. That and a lot pills to keep the pain down and a few trips to the doctor for muscle relaxer shots. Oh, you don't sit back in a chair and driving....Lord! So I was off work for a while. 

So age ain't helping. When my back works, back tension like it should be, I can get off a fairly clean shot and the arrow goes behind the pin. Tired, right side takes over and here comes a ripping shot. If I can control it I can get off a decent shot. Too fast and right goes the arrow mixed with some low rights. I have mapped out this back tension of mine. Back tightens, seeming a bit low, comes up, feels like it should and then flows to the right side.

Head position. Read of this. Head not quite right engages muscles that either mess you up, gives to shakes, or wears you down by making other muscles groups engage. ???? Heck, if I know. Stand straight, turn head to address the target, bow comes to you, not you to the bow. No one around to correct you, you don't know....Camera behind you in line with the target?


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## nuts&bolts

EPLC said:


> It seems my rhomboids are only good for so many shots and then they say, "I quit, I'm not doing this any more" and then they shut down. When this happens my shot process goes into my arms and shoulders. Since my arms and shoulders are strong and in good shape they can shoot many arrows for long periods without fatigue setting in. The problem is that my arms and shoulders don't shoot as well. I think this may be the source of the slumps that I get myself into as I end up training the wrong muscles by shooting this way.
> 
> So, my question is: What's the best way to build stamina into the rhomboids? What I've been doing isn't achieving the desired effect. For now, I'm going to stop shooting when I feel them giving out... which is probably the answer I'm looking for but what say you?


Seated rowing machine

or

if free weights are more your speed,
bent over dumb bell rows.


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## zdogk9

nuts&bolts said:


> Seated rowing machine
> 
> or
> 
> if free weights are more your speed,
> bent over dumb bell rows.


A row boat tends to be way more fun than a rowing machine, especially if you combine it with trolling for fish


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## carlosii

Is there a diagram which shows the location of these muscles?


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## zdogk9

Go to YouTube type, rhomboid major, into the search function. The video that pops up explains all.


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## TDS

No expert here... Just trying to learn how to use the rhomboid correctly... After drawing and getting anchored in if I am pulled into the wall to hard I can't execute the shot sequence.. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I feel like the only way to engage the back muscles is I need to relax from the wall first. Is this normal? btw, I shoot a thumb release..


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## SonnyThomas

TDS said:


> No expert here... Just trying to learn how to use the rhomboid correctly... After drawing and getting anchored in if I am pulled into the wall to hard I can't execute the shot sequence.. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I feel like the only way to engage the back muscles is I need to relax from the wall first. Is this normal? btw, I shoot a thumb release..


Cable stop or positive draw stop bow?


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## TDS

It's a Mathews z7 extreme, which I believe the cables stops.


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## SonnyThomas

Considerations; 1 - draw weight too much to learn with, turn bow down. 2 - Draw elbow not in correction position to allow a good pivot point. Elbow should be up and in line with power stroke of bow string/arrow.


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## EPLC

Today, after hearing and/or reading this several times; "JUST KEEP DRAWING THE BOW" finally makes sense to me... It solves many of the issues with how to use these muscles and takes the worry out of how much to push vs. pull, etc., etc., etc.


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## TDS

EPLC said:


> Today, after hearing and/or reading this several times; "JUST KEEP DRAWING THE BOW" finally makes sense to me... It solves many of the issues with how to use these muscles and takes the worry out of how much to push vs. pull, etc., etc., etc.


I like that "just keep drawing" I tend to lose it at times while anchoring and then start it again. Sounds almost like the draw itself is part of the firing sequence.


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## Padgett

Eplc, to me you may need to step back and make sure that you don't have your system bottomed out. If you come to anchor and you already have yourself stretched out where everything is all lined up before you start squeezing then you are squeezing against a the limits of your body and basically cramping up the muscles.

You want to come to anchor in a nice and be a little compact where there is still some travel in your system before you get stretched out perfectly straight. In fact the first time you want to be perfectly stretched out straight in line with the arrow is when the release fires. This is how pure back tension works anyway isn't it? You aren't rotating the release with your fingers, you are rotating the release by getting yourself to the position where everything lines up and at that moment the hinge fires.

So you may want to come to anchor and make sure youare slightly compact and then start your shot and let yourself get to that stretched out position and see how things work out for you. When I did this style of shooting it feels really nice and I had to change my hinge speed a little from what I normally use but not much.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> Eplc, to me you may need to step back and make sure that you don't have your system bottomed out. If you come to anchor and you already have yourself stretched out where everything is all lined up before you start squeezing then you are squeezing against a the limits of your body and basically cramping up the muscles.
> 
> You want to come to anchor in a nice and be a little compact where there is still some travel in your system before you get stretched out perfectly straight. In fact the first time you want to be perfectly stretched out straight in line with the arrow is when the release fires. This is how pure back tension works anyway isn't it? You aren't rotating the release with your fingers, you are rotating the release by getting yourself to the position where everything lines up and at that moment the hinge fires.
> 
> So you may want to come to anchor and make sure youare slightly compact and then start your shot and let yourself get to that stretched out position and see how things work out for you. When I did this style of shooting it feels really nice and I had to change my hinge speed a little from what I normally use but not much.


I totally agree. I can set up while drawing the bow with a little slack left in my bow arm, set my anchor, center and acquire the X and then continue the draw cycle. I was amazed how well this works for me and it is much less fatiguing. I also feel no pain in my back this evening which is encouraging. Prior to this discovery I would get a knot smack dab between my shoulder blades every time I shot well. There's no longer a need to try and figure out what muscles are required to shoot BT. You just continue doing what you did to draw the bow. Of course there may be some folks out there that draw the bow in very unorthodox ways... but for those that have a clean straightforward draw cycle this could solve a lot of issues. I know it has for me in just one day. Now I have something I feel I can really work on to better my game.


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## Padgett

It is funny, i have talked to you many times in these types of threads and have never shot with you. My buddy d-short to me is very much like you, in the last couple years he has had a few good days but there were a few issues that just didn't allow him to get on with his shooting and become really solid. He is very knowledgeable and when I watch him shoot he does many things right but I have always seen a few things that were holding him back. We shoot 40 some tournaments together and we just don't coach each other that much because we are best friends and there is a lot of respect between the two of us for each other. Late this summer I saw him shooting really well one weekend and a few days later I just felt like giving him a call and telling him what was on my mind and he listened, I really didn't know if he would actually use what I said or not and that weekend we showed up to a end of year shoot where he was in second or third place in his class for shooter of the year and about 3 hours later he had shot one of the strongest rounds of 3d that I saw anyone shoot that summer and he totally beat everyone by almost 35 points in that class. The next weekend I couldn't go to one of our favorite end of year shoots and he shot that course even and became only the second person along with me to shoot the course even and he beat everyone at the shoot by 15 or so points.

To me you are in the same boat, you are very knowledgeable because I read and listen to what you are saying all the time. There is some good shooting out there for you to enjoy and I just know if we could shoot together for a few weeks you could start seeing the little things that need to be tweeked to get you over the hump.


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## crazyhoyt

Bumbell Rows
T bar pulls
Reverse Fly
Close grip pull down
Pull downs with a Bar


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> It is funny, i have talked to you many times in these types of threads and have never shot with you. My buddy d-short to me is very much like you, in the last couple years he has had a few good days but there were a few issues that just didn't allow him to get on with his shooting and become really solid. He is very knowledgeable and when I watch him shoot he does many things right but I have always seen a few things that were holding him back. We shoot 40 some tournaments together and we just don't coach each other that much because we are best friends and there is a lot of respect between the two of us for each other. Late this summer I saw him shooting really well one weekend and a few days later I just felt like giving him a call and telling him what was on my mind and he listened, I really didn't know if he would actually use what I said or not and that weekend we showed up to a end of year shoot where he was in second or third place in his class for shooter of the year and about 3 hours later he had shot one of the strongest rounds of 3d that I saw anyone shoot that summer and he totally beat everyone by almost 35 points in that class. The next weekend I couldn't go to one of our favorite end of year shoots and he shot that course even and became only the second person along with me to shoot the course even and he beat everyone at the shoot by 15 or so points.
> 
> To me you are in the same boat, you are very knowledgeable because I read and listen to what you are saying all the time. There is some good shooting out there for you to enjoy and I just know if we could shoot together for a few weeks you could start seeing the little things that need to be tweeked to get you over the hump.


Thank you... and that would be fun. And here's my newly improved Shot Process.

DRAW
ANCHOR & ALIGN
CENTER the PEEP
AQUIRE the X
SAFETY OFF & COMMITT
DRAW the FREAKING BOW!


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## Bees

TDS said:


> No expert here... Just trying to learn how to use the rhomboid correctly... After drawing and getting anchored in if I am pulled into the wall to hard I can't execute the shot sequence.. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I feel like the only way to engage the back muscles is I need to relax from the wall first. Is this normal? btw, I shoot a thumb release..


nope it isn't normal. 

so draw back, pull straight back into your wall as hard as you want too. Your release side elbow will be behind your release side ear.

Now, move your release side elbow around your head, toward your other ear. Allow your release to rotate and fire. 
Rhomboid muscle is used to move the elbow back around your head.

I shoot my thumb release and hinge release this way. 
Release handle rotates and pushes button into my thumb and fires.

EPLC Sounds like you finally completed your back tension move.:smile:


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## TDS

Bees said:


> nope it isn't normal.
> 
> so draw back, pull straight back into your wall as hard as you want too. Your release side elbow will be behind your release side ear.
> 
> Now, move your release side elbow around your head, toward your other ear. Allow your release to rotate and fire.
> Rhomboid muscle is used to move the elbow back around your head.
> 
> I shoot my thumb release and hinge release this way.
> Release handle rotates and pushes button into my thumb and fires.
> 
> EPLC Sounds like you finally completed your back tension move.:smile:


Thanks, I was just out practicing and I think my problem may be caused by my rear arm alignment.. I tried again focusing on my back side alignment and I was able to pull through as long as I tried to keep the alignment. I think the reason I couldn't start the shot sequence is it would pull me off from my alignment and I would freeze up if that makes any sense?


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## EPLC

TDS said:


> Thanks, I was just out practicing and I think my problem may be caused by my rear arm alignment.. I tried again focusing on my back side alignment and I was able to pull through as long as I tried to keep the alignment. I think the reason I couldn't start the shot sequence is it would pull me off from my alignment and I would freeze up if that makes any sense?


If you just continue the same motion as if it were a continuation of the draw your alignment issues will correct themselves. I've dealt with alignment issues my entire archery life and have recently found this very simple fix. The problem of pulling yourself off line and creating a stop and go release as a result is something I've very experienced in. It's due to a weak bow arm that isn't pushing off as strong as your release side is pulling. By continuing the draw cycle you have to become even on both ends... or at least I do.


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## subconsciously

TDS said:


> Thanks, I was just out practicing and I think my problem may be caused by my rear arm alignment.. I tried again focusing on my back side alignment and I was able to pull through as long as I tried to keep the alignment. I think the reason I couldn't start the shot sequence is it would pull me off from my alignment and I would freeze up if that makes any sense?


If you are being pulled out of alignment I would believe you never reached the holding stage of the shot sequence. For most archers this should be a part of the shot sequence. Once reaching the anchor / transfer you should focus on the Lan2 area which helps keep the tension in back tight and keeps the elbow in alignment. If you do not maintain the holding stage in your back, tension will rebuild into the arms not allowing for proper rotation. Instead of rotation you get a linear pull. Motion goes from external to internal. Producing a dynamic shot. 
Clear as mud I hope. 

.02


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## ron w

i'm not a real fan of 'the transfer phase", in back tension. I prefer to draw my bow with my rhomboids in full contraction, as part of the musculature that draws the bow. I believe allot guys have trouble with the transfer as they loose concentration on their back and start thinking about the shot. if you put the rhomboids into the drawing cycle, they are automatically at tension when you get to full draw and no "transfer" is necessary at any time.


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## TDS

Thanks guys.. I have noticed when I begin the draw process without much delay while anchoring I can keep the draw going without loosing what I started... It's when I draw and anchor and try to float for some time before starting the shot sequence that I struggle.. I was thinking the experts draw float to get things lined up and then begin the shot sequence.


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## subconsciously

ron w said:


> i'm not a real fan of 'the transfer phase", in back tension. I prefer to draw my bow with my rhomboids in full contraction, as part of the musculature that draws the bow. I believe allot guys have trouble with the transfer as they loose concentration on their back and start thinking about the shot. if you put the rhomboids into the drawing cycle, they are automatically at tension when you get to full draw and no "transfer" is necessary at any time.


I would guess any archer that can draw without any draw arm tension does not need the transfer step.


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## Joe Schnur

I would venture to say that the archer that does not draw with out arm tension cannot transfer. Once muscles are engaged it is almost impossible to disengage or relax those muscles. Draw with your back it is one of the few things we can really use from oly rig shooting


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## EPLC

We make this all too confusing, at least it was for me... transfers, move this muscle or that ? 

DRAW - If you draw the bow properly everything needed to execute the shot is already in line. 
ANCHOR & ALIGN - This is where I set up my anchor position and reaffirm the alignment achieved when drawing the bow.
CENTER the PEEP - For me this is an important step as I tend to skip this if it's not a specific step in my process.
AQUIRE the X - Find the X and continue to focus on it
SAFETY OFF & COMMITT - Still looking at the X I commit to the shot
DRAW the FREAKING BOW! - This is what I tell myself and it just happens. Continuing the draw cycle to execute has improved my weak bow arm issue as I naturally push off during the draw. 

As you all know, this is a new discovery for me but it really seems to simplify the execution process. I had too much going on in my head prior to this and if the release wouldn't go I'd really be in trouble. I'm still in the training phase with this method but I'm already seeing a vast improvement in my shot placement and grouping.


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## subconsciously

Sorry I made things so confusing. I forgot I was dealing with elite archers who don't need to practice fundamentals or be able to relay the information in a constructive manner. 

Everyone should know you use absolutely no arm muscle used while drawing a bow it's 100% in the back. I'll call one of my former students on the Jr World Archery Team and let her know I was wrong. Matter a fact I will start with my wife and tell her I taught her all wrong. There is no "transfer" or maybe even a "holding" posistion. I will make we send her 12 State Championship Buckles and her Silver Bowls from nationals back - cause she did it wrong. 

I digress.


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## EPLC

subconsciously said:


> Sorry I made things so confusing. I forgot I was dealing with elite archers who don't need to practice fundamentals or be able to relay the information in a constructive manner.
> 
> Everyone should know you use absolutely no arm muscle used while drawing a bow it's 100% in the back. I'll call one of my former students on the Jr World Archery Team and let her know I was wrong. Matter a fact I will start with my wife and tell her I taught her all wrong. There is no "transfer" or maybe even a "holding" posistion. I will make we send her 12 State Championship Buckles and her Silver Bowls from nationals back - cause she did it wrong.
> 
> I digress.


As a matter of fact, discussions surrounding the use of or lack of use of specific muscles to shoot a bow do tend to confuse "me". While some people are very much in touch with and can control specific muscles while performing complex tasks, I'm not one of them. Watch any good wide receiver or pro basketball player do the things they do. I do have a grandson with these abilities; he can look at someone doing something such as dance, karate, etc. and duplicate that move. He was a black belt at about 12 or 13 years old. So, while specific muscle control may be good teaching/learning for some, there are many of us needing a much simpler teaching method to achieve these same goals. Not everyone is cut from the same mold.


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## Bees

I'll bet everyone is doing everything very similar during their shot routines/cycles.
But Everyone's verbal description of what they think they are doing varies a lot.

For example I'll bet me and EPLC shoot very similar, but my description has a transfer and hold phase and an Expansion phase. 
EPLC does not describe his routine in those terms but in order for him to shoot the same holes at 13/15 yards 
he has some form of transfer and some form of holding and he is getting some kind of expansion with his "complete the fricken draw move." 
If he wasn't doing those things he won't be in the same hole at 15 yards repeatable. 
for me If I don't do those things my arrows are not in the same holes either.

subconsciously do you shoot fingers?


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## ron w

yeah, I agree, ... allot of the "mud" is made by people using different vocabulary and different interpretation. 
my point is that if you draw with your rhomboids in the process, from the start of your draw....you can't "transfer", because there's no need to "transfer". I believe allot of shooters have trouble understanding "back tension" because of this idea of "transferring to back tension" after reaching full draw. to me, that "transfer" makes no sense. as you say, it is one thing that we can clearly take from the 'Oly shooters......they do it in a true sense of the words..."shooting with back tension".
I guess I really don't know of any other way to draw a bow. it is what I learned 40 years ago and have done ever since. as I get to full draw, my rhomboids are in full tension automatically as the bow comes into the stops. there is no conversion to back tension going on,...it is just there, as I get to full draw, because my rhomboids are contracting as I draw the string back.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> yeah,* I agree, ... allot of the "mud" is made by people using different vocabulary and different interpretation. * my point is that if you draw with your rhomboids in the process, from the start of your draw....you can't "transfer", because there's no need to "transfer". I believe allot of shooters have trouble understanding "back tension" because of this idea of "transferring to back tension" after reaching full draw. to me, that "transfer" makes no sense. as you say, it is one thing that we can clearly take from the 'Oly shooters......they do it in a true sense of the words..."shooting with back tension".
> I guess I really don't know of any other way to draw a bow. it is what I learned 40 years ago and have done ever since. as I get to full draw, my rhomboids are in full tension automatically as the bow comes into the stops. there is no conversion to back tension going on,...it is just there, as I get to full draw, because my rhomboids are contracting as I draw the string back.


In bold, yes sir.

Don't know about the Olympic shooters, but agree on the back tension. If you got it going there is not need to transfer or even increase it.


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## nuts&bolts

Something for you all the consider.

CAN a shooter, with no bicep muscle in the right arm....(release side arm)

can this shooter pull back a compound bow to full draw?

Answer is yes,
but,
THINK about how is this possible?


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## EPLC

So much contradiction too. Some very notable coaches and shooters say you aren't supposed to push at all... others with equal credits have an equal and opposite opinion. I think those that think IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY have lost sight of the fact that archery isn't an exact science.


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## nuts&bolts

EPLC said:


> So much contradiction too. Some very notable coaches and shooters say you aren't supposed to push at all... others with equal credits have an equal and opposite opinion. I think those that think IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY have lost sight of the fact that archery isn't an exact science.


Two styles.

DEAD fence post bow arm,
the bones in the bow arm resist the bow from smashing into your face.
Passive bow arm school/style.

Second school = PUSH pull style,
where the bow arm PUSHES and the release elbow PULLS
so you gotta balance the forces.

Bow arm has active follow through reaction
Release arm has active follow through reaction.

Difficult style to master, but when you do
the results are OOOOHHH so nice.

Passive arm style is easier to do, learn, execute.
BOTH styles can have excellent results.

Same as folks like one bow company or the other bow company.

Another version of fan boy ism.


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## Bees

ron w said:


> yeah, I agree, ... allot of the "mud" is made by people using different vocabulary and different interpretation.
> my point is that if you draw with your rhomboids in the process, from the start of your draw....you can't "transfer", because there's no need to "transfer". I believe allot of shooters have trouble understanding "back tension" because of this idea of "transferring to back tension" after reaching full draw. to me, that "transfer" makes no sense. as you say, it is one thing that we can clearly take from the 'Oly shooters......they do it in a true sense of the words..."shooting with back tension".
> I guess I really don't know of any other way to draw a bow. it is what I learned 40 years ago and have done ever since. as I get to full draw, my rhomboids are in full tension automatically as the bow comes into the stops. there is no conversion to back tension going on,...it is just there, as I get to full draw, because my rhomboids are contracting as I draw the string back.


see you don't understand transfer. 
I am not transferring to back tension. I have that when I draw the bow.
I am transferring from my linear drawing motion setting up,or staging, transferring, to my angular motion which I am going to use to actually rotate my release aid. it's a transfer, change of direction for my elbow. from linear to angular. after I get into that position I am ready to Hold and get my shoulders and other stuff lined up and eventually I will come to anchor. then hold some more and look at my float on the target. Eventually I will decide if I want to continue or not, but I have started to shoot the arrow, way back at what I call transfer.. 

other people refer to this as settling in.. 
I am doing the same thing you are doing I am just using different words to convey what I am doing.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> yeah, I agree, ...* allot of the "mud" is made by people using different vocabulary and different interpretation*.
> my point is that if you draw with your rhomboids in the process, from the start of your draw....you can't "transfer", because there's no need to "transfer". I believe allot of shooters have trouble understanding "back tension" because of this idea of "transferring to back tension" after reaching full draw. to me, that "transfer" makes no sense. as you say, it is one thing that we can clearly take from the 'Oly shooters......they do it in a true sense of the words..."shooting with back tension".
> I guess I really don't know of any other way to draw a bow. it is what I learned 40 years ago and have done ever since. as I get to full draw, my rhomboids are in full tension automatically as the bow comes into the stops. there is no conversion to back tension going on,...it is just there, as I get to full draw, because my rhomboids are contracting as I draw the string back.





Bees said:


> see you don't understand transfer.
> I am not transferring to back tension. I have that when I draw the bow.
> I am transferring from my linear drawing motion setting up,or staging, transferring, to my angular motion which I am going to use to actually rotate my release aid. it's a transfer, change of direction for my elbow. from linear to angular. after I get into that position I am ready to Hold and get my shoulders and other stuff lined up and eventually I will come to anchor. then hold some more and look at my float on the target. Eventually I will decide if I want to continue or not, but I have started to shoot the arrow, way back at what I call transfer..
> 
> other people refer to this as settling in..
> *I am doing the same thing you are doing I am just using different words to convey what I am doing*.


One half dozen eggs. Six eggs. 

Each person is where ever their means of communication is and this is Main Central.


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## Reverend

Would love to see how this transfer occurs on video. To me "transfer" implies to replacing one muscle group with another... so my back muscles are picking up the weight of my arm muscles, while my arm muscles relax. Yes? 
How did you say you do this again? 

Also, back to the OP, I was told that the way you "know" you're shooting with true back tension is that your back muscles get sore... so...
Count it a blessing.


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## Bees

Reverend said:


> Would love to see how this transfer occurs on video. To me "transfer" implies to replacing one muscle group with another... so my back muscles are picking up the weight of my arm muscles, while my arm muscles relax. Yes?
> How did you say you do this again?
> 
> Also, back to the OP, I was told that the way you "know" you're shooting with true back tension is that your back muscles get sore... so...
> Count it a blessing.


Reverend, I am drawing a light weight bow. I don't feel any muscles being used but stuff in the back. Now just because I don't feel the muscles in my arm being used doesn't mean I am not using them, it just means I cannot feel them being used.
so your interruption of transfer is as correct as anyone else's. Point being if you get into the position you need to be in so that you are not struggling with the release aid,( Trying to get it to fire) then your good to go. 

My interruption has me moving my elbow straight back down the arrow line (Linear motion) parking my elbow behind my ear, then from there my thoughts are on moving that elbow toward my other ear ( angular motion) when it is time to move it in my cycle . elbow doesn't get very far before my release fires, I don't think anyone can see it move , but I can feel it inside of me.

when I start my cycle if I let it run the arrow will leave the bow, no question about it. 
so I decide if I want to continue the cycle or not, many times during the cycle. 
today I aborted 5 times, 3 times because release hand wasn't right on the release and twice because bow arm wasn't right..
Hopefully the more I abort, because of alignment and position on things the better these things will get.


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## ron w

I understand, now !....
thanks Bees.... always wondered a little just what "transfer" meant in this issue. in my mind, there is no such thing as "transfer".
I guess I never thought of it that way, because when drawing with BT, it's all one continuous build of tension, that culminates when the shot breaks. as N&B asked, about drawing without a bicep muscle......your upper arm is simply a connecting rod between your fore arm and your rhomboids. the motion of your upper arm, is entirely "angular",or "radial", throughout the entire process....it physically can not move any other way, so there is no "transfer" or change in direction of it's movement. your elbow, however does "transfer", from linear movement as you draw, to radial movement as it gets to the extent of it's linear travel at full draw. during all of this time, from brace to full draw..... your upper arm, is making the same "angular" or "radial" movement.
so my question....where is this "transfer" taking place ?....there is no change in direction of movement, of any part of your draw, even your elbow actually runs in a continuous arc, because it is at the end of the connecting rod, that 
hence my confusion about what some people call, "their transfer".
your elbow swings in a continuous arc, at the end of your upper arm, which acts as a connecting rod, between hand and shoulder joint/rhomboids. the only "linear movement, is at the hand, because it must travel in the same plane as the bow string (for all applicable purposes). from that point back, all movement, is completely "angular", or "radial" at all times. so there is no "transfer" of any direction of any motion made, at any time.
as you get to full draw, the motion may be interrupted, obviously, as you settle in and start hard aim, but upon continuing the shot process, the motion continues in a similar direction, because it is controlled and defined by the mechanical limits of our anatomy. 
no change in the direction or any motion, means no "transfer" occurs.


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## ron w

the elbow, cannot move "straight back"...it is mechanically impossible. it is fixed to a "solid member" that has definite termination points at both ends. if that "solid member" moves on one end, the elbow moves in an arc, with that end.....it can't do anything else. 
as we get to full draw, the angular motion, may be interrupted, as we settle in and start our hard aim, but upon continuing the shot, the motion continues in the same radial, or angular motion that generate the rotation needed to fire the release. 
no "transfer" occurs.


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## Bees

ron w said:


> the elbow, cannot move "straight back"...it is mechanically impossible. it is fixed to a "solid member" that has definite termination points at both ends. if that "solid member" moves on one end, the elbow moves in an arc, with that end.....it can't do anything else.
> as we get to full draw, the angular motion, may be interrupted, as we settle in and start our hard aim, but upon continuing the shot, the motion continues in the same radial, or angular motion that generate the rotation needed to fire the release.
> no "transfer" occurs.


you can understand it your way and I'll understand it my way, and that is all there is too it.
I'm not interested in an argument with you about semantics on what is happening.
you can read Total Archery and take up your argument with Coach Lee.

As for me My way works for me and that is really all I care about.


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## SonnyThomas

Somewhere with our "saying we are doing the same thing and telling it different" we are missing the boat, totally. The Pivot Point is what makes all happen with back tension. I guess I'm the only one giving, Pivot Point. If the draw arm/elbow is out - back tension doesn't work so well, like you have work your butt off to make your release fire.
I've read I don't know how many books and articles and never is there a clear cut photo or diagram of the Pivot Point. If it was given it would be a overhead view, not from the back or side. One book and article has a line pointing to some damned place and it sure isn't the Pivot Point. What the hell is the only thing that can cause pivot? The shoulder. It becomes the desired Pivot Point because the draw arm/elbow is positioned correctly. The elbow swings just like Bees says. It's physically impossible for the elbow go on a straight line back just like ron says.

Books and articles would be better off using a screen door with spring to example the works of back tension. Where the door is attached, the wall, your back. The hinge, the pivot point, your shoulder. The door, your draw arm/elbow. The spring, your rhomboid muscle group.

The muscles group, tensed, it/they retract the scapula, draws it towards your spine. Shoulder pivots, action gives for the release to pivot/fire. Why does the shoulder pivot? Because it's joined with the scapula. It's complex, more muscles and stuff works within.

"The shoulder. The most flexible joint in the entire human body, our shoulder joint is formed by the union of the humerus, the scapula (or shoulder blade), and the clavicle (or collarbone). Commonly thought of as a single joint, the shoulder is actually made up of two separate joints - the glenohumeral and acromioclavicular joints. These two joints work together to allow the arm both to circumduct in a large circle and to rotate around its axis at the shoulder." In other words, a pivot point. 


I don't believe in a transfer of things. You have back tension going you keep it going. You keep it going and the release will fire, but you can stop it. Shot falling apart you better be able to stop it because there is no saving it, not really.

Why don't they have Archery Coaches Conventions?


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## ron w

because if they did, there'd be no need for sites like this,..... where we can discuss how many different ways we can say the same thing !.


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## Joe Schnur

I guess jessie jake kaminski Reo gillingham Bradley Ellison George Ryals all draw with their arms and transfer to their back interesting how they don't say it that way.


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## Joe Schnur

Sonny and Ron could you imagine the heated discussion that would take place they can't be civil online .


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## SonnyThomas

Joe Schnur said:


> Sonny and Ron could you imagine the heated discussion that would take place they can't be civil online .


A videoing them would be nice 

Some coaches and others, like here, make things so simple for the student and others....grrrr. New bow, it's set up good, but I'm having issues, like I was all over the practice target. A friend, a coach, walks up, sticks his bow arm half out and flips his wrist up and down and side to side. That's all, no words. Took 2nd that day.


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## nuts&bolts

ron w said:


> the elbow, cannot move "straight back"...it is mechanically impossible. it is fixed to a "solid member" that has definite termination points at both ends. if that "solid member" moves on one end, the elbow moves in an arc, with that end.....it can't do anything else.
> as we get to full draw, the angular motion, may be interrupted, as we settle in and start our hard aim, but upon continuing the shot, the motion continues in the same radial, or angular motion that generate the rotation needed to fire the release.
> no "transfer" occurs.


NTS, which WAS called the B.E.S.T....biomechanically efficient shooting system
now called the National Training System...

So,
first we had the "TOTAL ARCHERY BOOK"....where you had Robert deBondt explaining the concept of LAN2 (made up word)

here is a recent photo of LAN2...I have seen other photos, where "LAN2" has a different placement on the release arm.



Then,
there are discussion of the transiTION from "external" to "internal" movement.

So,
the Total Archery book is pricey.

The Total Archery book is now the NOT CURRENT understanding of NTS, which was B.E.S.T....cuz the classes, the system keeps changing (coaching level names)
and the system requires folks who certified under the OLD system to RE-certify under the NEW system (coaching level names)
more fees
more classes
to get the LATEST interpretation of the "system".

I have the Total Archery Book,
and the words are in English, but you have a South African fella trying to "translate" biomechanical concepts. 

I would skip this version of the book.

So,
the SECOND ATTEMPT at translating Coach Lee's biomechanical concepts, from reading excerpts is MUCH MUCH better written.

TOTAL ARCHERY: Inside the Archer by Coach Lee and apparently MOSTLY written by Tyler Benner.
Tyler Benner is a much better writer and also shoots a recurve, using the NTS system...as far as I know.

Going through the excerpts of Inside the Archer....is MUCH easier to understand. Tyler Benner is an EXCELLENT writer.


----------



## nuts&bolts

ron w said:


> the elbow, cannot move "straight back"...it is mechanically impossible. it is fixed to a "solid member" that has definite termination points at both ends. if that "solid member" moves on one end, the elbow moves in an arc, with that end.....it can't do anything else.
> as we get to full draw, the angular motion, may be interrupted, as we settle in and start our hard aim, but upon continuing the shot, the motion continues in the same radial, or angular motion that generate the rotation needed to fire the release.
> no "transfer" occurs.


Here is a Question and Answer about LAN2...from the KSL website.

*Question 68	Aug 10 , 2011	P.C.- France*

*Hello Mr. Lee,

Page 60 of the French version of TA (Total Archery book), 
you ask to concentrate on a spot LAN2 and move and push this spot towards the back..

My question is: which is the place or the anatomical zone of this spot (is it the shoulder) or can be described it.

Then, in which direction must it be this spot moved towards the back, 
is on-line with shoulders and the shooting plane of bow 
or towards the perpendicular back in the axis of the arrow.

Indeed, when I move closer the shoulder blade towards the spine 
my draw shoulder moves towards the back and 

this angular movement makes spread the hand towards the outside of the face *
(his release hand was swinging away from his face....like a swinging door)

*at the time of the release instead of 
leaving on-line towards the back in line.

Thank you very much of the attention which you will wear in my problem.
Very cordially,

P.G.- an old man of France*

ANSWER FROM KSL WEBSITE
Below an explaination what LAN or LAN2 actually means –

“Basically Lan & Lan2 are terms used in martial arts sword fighting for ‘blocking’; 
‘parry (turn blow aside) and basically obstructing/blocking an opponent’s movements. 

So basically it is a certain movement in martial arts sword fighting or 
using the cane or short staff in martial arts.

Coach Lee explains it as follows:- 

Let’s look at what a lot of archers do on release. 

Basically they do not rotate the drawing shoulder, but have a linear release. 
As such by not rotating the shoulder, 

they are blocking(LAN) rotational motion. 

Now by using the terminology LAN or LAN2 
it will remind and focus the archer 
not to stop or impede the rotational motion. 

Therefore, if they do not move LAN2 
they are ‘blocking/impeding’ rotational movement, 
necessary to execute the shot biomechanically correctly”.

LAN2 is not an anatomical part of the body, 
but an imaginary location near the shoulder, 
as indicated by the red area in the photo. 

It is a concept that the archer can use 
to visualize the movement of the draw shoulder. 

The direction of the LAN2 Spot 
is indicated by the small red arrows and 
is approximately parallel to the shooting line and slightly downwards.
*LAN2*

The reason that your draw hand comes away from your face 
is that there has to be 

*a certain amount of tension in the drawing arm bicep *

to ensure that the included angle 
between the upper part of the lower arm and 
bicep doesn’t open up during the release. 

To focus on this 
*place a pencil in the crook of the drawing arm* and 
there should be sufficient pressure there to keep the pencil there throughout the shot.


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## SonnyThomas

Thanks, Alan. Picture I no doubt missed or forgot and a much better view of what's going on.

And you noted the real problem, "pricey." Not so much just that book, but when you have a library.... I "donated" many of my books and magazines at a 3D club. Kind of hard getting "charged up" when steel cable bows and adjustable brass pins are pictured.


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## EPLC

nuts&bolts said:


> Here is a Question and Answer about LAN2...from the KSL website.
> 
> *Question 68	Aug 10 , 2011	P.C.- France*
> 
> *Hello Mr. Lee,
> 
> Page 60 of the French version of TA (Total Archery book),
> you ask to concentrate on a spot LAN2 and move and push this spot towards the back..
> 
> My question is: which is the place or the anatomical zone of this spot (is it the shoulder) or can be described it.
> 
> Then, in which direction must it be this spot moved towards the back,
> is on-line with shoulders and the shooting plane of bow
> or towards the perpendicular back in the axis of the arrow.
> 
> Indeed, when I move closer the shoulder blade towards the spine
> my draw shoulder moves towards the back and
> 
> this angular movement makes spread the hand towards the outside of the face *
> (his release hand was swinging away from his face....like a swinging door)
> 
> *at the time of the release instead of
> leaving on-line towards the back in line.
> 
> Thank you very much of the attention which you will wear in my problem.
> Very cordially,
> 
> P.G.- an old man of France*
> 
> ANSWER FROM KSL WEBSITE
> Below an explaination what LAN or LAN2 actually means –
> 
> “Basically Lan & Lan2 are terms used in martial arts sword fighting for ‘blocking’;
> ‘parry (turn blow aside) and basically obstructing/blocking an opponent’s movements.
> 
> So basically it is a certain movement in martial arts sword fighting or
> using the cane or short staff in martial arts.
> 
> Coach Lee explains it as follows:-
> 
> Let’s look at what a lot of archers do on release.
> 
> Basically they do not rotate the drawing shoulder, but have a linear release.
> As such by not rotating the shoulder,
> 
> they are blocking(LAN) rotational motion.
> 
> Now by using the terminology LAN or LAN2
> it will remind and focus the archer
> not to stop or impede the rotational motion.
> 
> Therefore, if they do not move LAN2
> they are ‘blocking/impeding’ rotational movement,
> necessary to execute the shot biomechanically correctly”.
> 
> LAN2 is not an anatomical part of the body,
> but an imaginary location near the shoulder,
> as indicated by the red area in the photo.
> 
> It is a concept that the archer can use
> to visualize the movement of the draw shoulder.
> 
> The direction of the LAN2 Spot
> is indicated by the small red arrows and
> is approximately parallel to the shooting line and slightly downwards.
> *LAN2*
> 
> The reason that your draw hand comes away from your face
> is that there has to be
> 
> *a certain amount of tension in the drawing arm bicep *
> 
> to ensure that the included angle
> between the upper part of the lower arm and
> bicep doesn’t open up during the release.
> 
> To focus on this
> *place a pencil in the crook of the drawing arm* and
> there should be sufficient pressure there to keep the pencil there throughout the shot.


Thanks Alan, once again I'm reminded that the simplest methods are always best for me. Or was that B.E.S.T.?


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## ron w

I always learned that your release hand should stay in contact with the side of your face and just swipe back to your ear. that keeps the pencil in the crook of your arm !.


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## ron w

N&B,
thanks for the LAN and LAN2 expansion on my post. I never took any "formal" NFAA coaching seminars, and don't do much coaching, so I tend to use my own language. I remember a fairly long thread about this issue, back in the early 2000's on this forum, where You, Griv, Dave Cousins, and I think Jim Despart, had a good in-depth discussion, that went on for several pages about it.


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## TDS

So when drawing back using the rhomboids it feels like once I reach the wall I have used up my range of motion in the rhomboids.. Once there I have to work like hell to get anymore out of them to get the bow to fire .. I must be doing something wrong.


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## nuts&bolts

TDS said:


> So when drawing back using the rhomboids it feels like once I reach the wall I have used up my range of motion in the rhomboids.. Once there I have to work like hell to get anymore out of them to get the bow to fire .. I must be doing something wrong.


SHORTEN bow draw length 1/4-inch.

That will fix you right up.

Post a pic of YOU at full draw,
arrow DEAD level. You may have other things going on.


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## TDS

nuts&bolts said:


> SHORTEN bow draw length 1/4-inch.
> 
> That will fix you right up.
> 
> Post a pic of YOU at full draw,
> arrow DEAD level. You may have other things going on.


Thanks, I will give that a shot after the hunting season.


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## ron w

yup, that's what it sounds like to me , too. you'll soon find out that you have a specific "sweet spot" in your draw length that leaves enough room to execute the shot, with just a bit of reserve movement left. it can get so critical, that a twist or two of the bow string makes the difference between shots going off with what seems like no effort is being made to make them go, and shots that you think will never go off.


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## Bees

TDS said:


> So when drawing back using the rhomboids it feels like once I reach the wall I have used up my range of motion in the rhomboids.. Once there I have to work like hell to get anymore out of them to get the bow to fire .. I must be doing something wrong.


what release are you using? 
when I use an index finger, I have to keep my release hand into a fist except for my index finger. I wrap that around the trigger.
with increased rhomboid pressure my fist moves back and triggers the release. If I let my hand stretch out during the back pull, I have to pull more and I end up fighting myself and the release doesn't fire.

same with a hinge and thumb triggers. , I have to set my last finger on the release, the one farthest away form the index finger, firm on the release and keep it that way, if I let all the fingers relax on the pull back the release just sits there and doesn't move, when I keep my last finger tight on the handle the handle moves and the release fires.

doesn't do one much good to pull back, if you let your connecting rod to the handle get longer as you pull.
your connecting rod to the handle is your fingers, hand, arm, and shoulder. everyone has to work out how your going to keep that connection the same length as you pull back through the shot. if you let that connecting length get longer you will have to pull back more to make up for the added length. You end up pulling and nothing is happening.


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## TDS

Bees said:


> what release are you using?
> when I use an index finger, I have to keep my release hand into a fist except for my index finger. I wrap that around the trigger.
> with increased rhomboid pressure my fist moves back and triggers the release. If I let my hand stretch out during the back pull, I have to pull more and I end up fighting myself and the release doesn't fire.
> 
> same with a hinge and thumb triggers. , I have to set my last finger on the release, the one farthest away form the index finger, firm on the release and keep it that way, if I let all the fingers relax on the pull back the release just sits there and doesn't move, when I keep my last finger tight on the handle the handle moves and the release fires.
> 
> doesn't do one much good to pull back, if you let your connecting rod to the handle get longer as you pull.
> your connecting rod to the handle is your fingers, hand, arm, and shoulder. everyone has to work out how your going to keep that connection the same length as you pull back through the shot. if you let that connecting length get longer you will have to pull back more to make up for the added length. You end up pulling and nothing is happening.


Thanks Bees, I use a Spot hogg Friday night delight (thumb release). That makes sense letting the connecting rod get longer. I think my biggest problem is if I tighten one thing it blocks or impedes the use of other muscles engaging.


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## Bees

TDS said:


> Thanks Bees, I use a Spot hogg Friday night delight (thumb release). That makes sense letting the connecting rod get longer. I think my biggest problem is if I tighten one thing it blocks or impedes the use of other muscles engaging.


when I first started with the rhomboids I could barley move them.
Now with repeated use the range of motion has increased and the strength has also, but it didn't happen over night..


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> So much contradiction too. Some very notable coaches and shooters say you aren't supposed to push at all... others with equal credits have an equal and opposite opinion. I think those that think IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY have lost sight of the fact that archery isn't an exact science.


I've heard coaches can be this way, My way or the Highway, but mostly it's something off the beaten path of their instruction procedure. I heard of students crying from being chewed out. However, coaches I know aren't so much concerned in some aspects of correctness, only that you can repeat something without fail. 

And those coaches who see things before you. "Why didn't you let down? Couldn't you feel the shot falling apart?" Don't answer with; "I thought I could save it."


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## SonnyThomas

Reverend said:


> Also, back to the OP, I was told that the way you "know" you're shooting with true back tension is that your back muscles get sore... so...
> Count it a blessing.


I don't think I ever felt my back muscles sore...maybe tired, but not sore.... but then I'm sore just about everywhere and probably don't know the difference.


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## ron w

that soreness will go away as you use your rhomboids more and more. if that is the key, what do you do, when your rhomboids get used to being worked out while shooting ?. I can only assume reference to that "soreness" is related to when a shooter starts to learn "back tension". the soreness, is an indicator that you're using the right muscles. once those muscles are used to being worked, they don't get sore anymore, they might feel a little "pumped up" after a relatively long shooting session, but certainly not sore. one of the reasons we use them, is because they are a bigger muscle group than your arms, so they can do the job more consistently, with less fatigue.


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## SonnyThomas

I think well said, ron.


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## EPLC

I stumbled on this discussion on drawing the bow by Alistair Whittingham while researching another thread. By using this simple method of closing the elbow, the rhomboids set up automatically along with the bow shoulder. While my drawing the bow wasn't terrible, this method produces a very repeatable setup just by drawing the bow... I also find it interesting that he subscribes to a no push at all and no rotation of the shoulder. I feel my form has improved greatly with this method. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&list=PL1C1CE900FE9C0346&index=7


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## ArcherXXX300

I have to touch upon the topic of transfer as I understand it...

Almost every single hinge I have there is a bend in my fingers at the knuckles where it attaches to the palm even drawing with all fingers on hinge I still use the thumb post. There is initially at draw tension in my hand and fingers holding the pulling post also including my forearm muscles on the draw side. I unlike all of you apparently drop the thumb peg and come to anchor with a flat back of hand, there is still tension in my fingers on the release aid, if tension was even on all of the fingers the release would just fire when I dropped the peg and the release would be too hot for me. As I pull I bleed tension in my hand and primarily index finger and yield to the pull.

The Transfer I believe people are referring to is the transfer of tension in the forearm and hand/release grip that is slowly being bled off until the release rotates and fires. My 2 cents.

It is through relaxation and transfer out of my release hand and forearm that I personally shoot my best shots, any time I have to pull I feel as though the shot is commanded to happen in a way or another, it just isn't the same as watching the x and waiting for the shot to happen.

I've been struggling however and we all know this.


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## EPLC

When using the simple method linked above there is no need to transfer anything, there is no need to worry about specific muscles, etc., as a perfect setup seems to fall in place automatically, or at least that is what is happening for me. This works regardless of the type of release used, or shooting fingers for that matter.


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## ron w

done correctly, there should be no need to transfer. putting your rhomboids into the draw of your bow, sets up the tension that the rhomboids should be in, at anchor. by simply keeping your draw shoulder down and back, when you start the draw, your rhomboids will automatically be in the draw.


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## Ned250

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I have to touch upon the topic of transfer as I understand it...
> 
> Almost every single hinge I have there is a bend in my fingers at the knuckles where it attaches to the palm even drawing with all fingers on hinge I still use the thumb post. There is initially at draw tension in my hand and fingers holding the pulling post also including my forearm muscles on the draw side. I unlike all of you apparently drop the thumb peg and come to anchor with a flat back of hand, there is still tension in my fingers on the release aid, if tension was even on all of the fingers the release would just fire when I dropped the peg and the release would be too hot for me. As I pull I bleed tension in my hand and primarily index finger and yield to the pull.
> 
> The Transfer I believe people are referring to is the transfer of tension in the forearm and hand/release grip that is slowly being bled off until the release rotates and fires. My 2 cents.
> 
> It is through relaxation and transfer out of my release hand and forearm that I personally shoot my best shots, any time I have to pull I feel as though the shot is commanded to happen in a way or another, it just isn't the same as watching the x and waiting for the shot to happen.
> 
> I've been struggling however and we all know this.


I know exactly what you're saying. I think to help clarify it, from my perspective of how I shoot the hinge anyway, is I continue to draw the bow (thanks Reo for that simple explanation) and let the tension in the release bleed out with that continued drawing motion. It's essentially how Griv has explained it, but just put a different way that makes sense to me. This has always given me the crispest fire I've experienced.

"bleed it out" is actually something I focus on saying to myself as I'm executing the shot.


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## ron w

I knw that when i'm running my best BT, the only tension I feel in my draw arm, is the tendons that are making my fingers form a hook for the release to sit in. i'm not really grasping the release, it's just being retained by the "hook" form by the last two segments of my fingers, the rest of my hand and wrist is flat and the rotation is generated at the elbow swinging, with no changes in finger tension. I've also noticed that unless I get into that zone of total, almost "tunnel vision" like focus on the X, I have a hard time getting the rotation without prodding it along by deliberately being conscious of swinging my elbow. those shots still go in pretty good, but I can really feel the difference in how much work they take to produce. those shots that go off when i'm in that "zone", feel like i'm doing nothing at all to fire the release, it just goes off as i'm concentrating on seeing down that.... "tunnel". those are the shots that feel like I could have my eyes shut, and the arrow will go where it should.....you know the instant the shot breaks, the arrow is in !.
doesn't happen all the time,...I wish I knew how to train myself to get that "feeling"...get into that "zone",... every shot.


----------



## drockw

EPLC said:


> I stumbled on this discussion on drawing the bow by Alistair Whittingham while researching another thread. By using this simple method of closing the elbow, the rhomboids set up automatically along with the bow shoulder. While my drawing the bow wasn't terrible, this method produces a very repeatable setup just by drawing the bow... I also find it interesting that he subscribes to a no push at all and no rotation of the shoulder. I feel my form has improved greatly with this method.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&list=PL1C1CE900FE9C0346&index=7


I watched this and tried to execute it for a round last night. On my good shots, it seemed to clean up my movement very quickly, and not leave me sitting there trying so hard to force the shot off. I was probably 50/50 executing correctly, but it for sure seemed to help make the x's happen easier, and go to the center a larger percentage of the time (on the good shots).

I guess this is something I've struggled with for a while now too, but I don't think I realized I had a problem until I watched this.


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## unclejane

drockw said:


> I watched this and tried to execute it for a round last night. On my good shots, it seemed to clean up my movement very quickly, and not leave me sitting there trying so hard to force the shot off. I was probably 50/50 executing correctly, but it for sure seemed to help make the x's happen easier, and go to the center a larger percentage of the time (on the good shots).
> 
> I guess this is something I've struggled with for a while now too, but I don't think I realized I had a problem until I watched this.


Yepper, AW leaves no stone unturned in this entire set of videos. I watch them all, all the way through probably at least once every couple of weeks LOL... 

But something simple like this can really reduce your shot routine "checklist". I had (have) an injury for the longest time that prevented me from drawing a compound like this - some connective tissue in my chest couldn't handle the compression forces of the high draw weight balanced completely on the back muscles. So I developed this horrible draw method you see a lot of folks who are overbowed have, where I pulled down and towards the chest, and pushing the bow out with the bow arm.... it was just awful.

But now that I invested in a light enough bow, I'm having to relearn how to draw it. You can do something awful to get the bow drawn, but then you have to do a whole bunch of manipulation/checking to get everything back in line once you come to anchor. 

This straight back against the bone-bone-bone reduces it to just one smooth movement.

LS


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## EPLC

drockw said:


> I watched this and tried to execute it for a round last night. On my good shots, it seemed to clean up my movement very quickly, and not leave me sitting there trying so hard to force the shot off. I was probably 50/50 executing correctly, but it for sure seemed to help make the x's happen easier, and go to the center a larger percentage of the time (on the good shots).
> 
> I guess this is something I've struggled with for a while now too, but I don't think I realized I had a problem until I watched this.


My draw cycle wasn't too far off from AW's but needed refinement. Even though I just started using this method I'm seeing automatic benefits as a result. The setup is cleaner with regard to rhomboids, shoulder positioning and alignment. And my rhomboids seem to be holding up better as well. This has to be a good thing!


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## PSE Archer

ron w said:


> done correctly, there should be no need to transfer. putting your rhomboids into the draw of your bow, sets up the tension that the rhomboids should be in, at anchor. by simply keeping your draw shoulder down and back, when you start the draw, your rhomboids will automatically be in the draw.


Was scrolling thru the post and came across this one - 
I challenge anybody in this forum to go do a good solid bicep-tricep work out. I mean to total muscle failure - like a good workout is - 
Then go draw your bow with only your back. Betcha can't.


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## ron w

where do I say, that you should leave muscles other than your rhomboids, out of the draw, or that you don't need any muscles, other than your rhomboids to draw with ?. 
it's not the "exclusion" of muscles, other than rhomboids in the draw, that we are talking about....you have to use your arms, as well, that is obvious. it is the "inclusion" of the rhomboids in the draw from the start of the draw, that some people don't do. they draw with mainly their bi's and tri's and then transfer the load to their rhomboids when at full draw. the jest of my post was that the rhomboids should be (more) included in the draw process, right from the start of the draw, from brace.
when you start the draw with your rhomboids included, there is no need to transfer the load to your back tension, it is already engaged.


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## SonnyThomas

PSE Archer said:


> Was scrolling thru the post and came across this one -
> I challenge anybody in this forum to go do a good solid bicep-tricep work out. I mean to total muscle failure - like a good workout is -
> Then go draw your bow with only your back. Betcha can't.


??? Who said you didn't use other muscles to draw? Several muscles work to draw a bow and then hold a bow at full draw. That I've already have back muscles engaged to draw the bow there helping hold at full draw. Engaged it can as simple as wait for the shot to happen....


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## PSE Archer

You said no transfer Ron. 
An angular draw leading with the elbow still requires transfer. Even if it is only minuscule.


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## ron w

yes I did,...and again....when you draw putting your rhomboids into the drawing process, there is no transfer to backtension with your rhomboids necessary, it is already in, or a part of, the musculature that is being performed. as you come to full draw, the tension in you rhomboids is already there.


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## PSE Archer

I feel better now with your explanation. You just explained you have no idea what the transfer step of the process is.


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## ron w

please explain it to me then, instead of being sarcastic about it. this forum is here for to further the understanding of archery, not to criticize someone's knowledge , or lack there of. 
if you are trying to discount my helping others, I have no problem being corrected, I possibly have a different verbiage for the term "transfer" as used in the shot process. I have heard that term used many times and never really did read what it means, anywhere, so I assumed "transfer" was transferring load to rhomboids at full draw. 
being sarcastic helps no-one. maybe that's what your intentions are, I don't know...but it surely looks that way.
everybody has weak spots, evidently that is mine....I don't profess to be all knowing...only all knowing in what I know.
perhaps you could dribble a little of your all knowing superiority upon me, or am I asking too much ?.

as you can see....sarcasm gets no-one anywhere, does it ?.


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## SonnyThomas

PSE Archer said:


> I feel better now with your explanation. You just explained you have no idea what the transfer step of the process is.


18 people can tell how the rhomboids work and not one of them correct, not a one of them wrong. You want to be #19?


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## PSE Archer

I have read many of your post's Ron and you are very knowledgable about this sport. 

I will however let you do your own research into this part of a good process in which you say is not needed or doesn't exist. 

Happy New Year.


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## ron w

where do I say it is not needed or doesn't exist ?.


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## Lazarus

ron w said:


> where do I say it is not needed or doesn't exist ?.


I'll help PSE out........here ya go...earlier on this topic.



ron w said:


> i'm not a real fan of 'the transfer phase", in back tension. I prefer to draw my bow with my rhomboids in full contraction, as part of the musculature that draws the bow. I believe allot guys have trouble with the transfer as they loose concentration on their back and start thinking about the shot. *if you put the rhomboids into the drawing cycle, they are automatically at tension when you get to full draw and no "transfer" is necessary at any time.*


You're welcome.


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## EPLC

If you draw the bow with a simple closing of the elbow the rhomboids will set up correctly and both shoulders will be aligned and in the correct position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&list=PL1C1CE900FE9C0346&index=7 Since I started using this method my draw and initial setup is much cleaner. No need for any transfer or the like. This is a very simple effective method and my rhomboids have been holding up quite well as a result.


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## ron w

saying "no transfer is necessary" doesn't infer that the transfer doesn't occur or doesn't exist. the transfer is included in the draw process so it is not necessary to activate it a s a independent and /or added action.


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## PSE Archer

ron w said:


> saying "no transfer is necessary" doesn't infer that the transfer doesn't occur or doesn't exist. the transfer is included in the draw process so it is not necessary to activate it a s a independent and /or added action.


Transfer is not started till the end of the draw cycle. It is a physical impossibility to draw and transfer at the same time.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> saying "no transfer is necessary" doesn't infer that the transfer doesn't occur or doesn't exist. the transfer is included in the draw process so it is not necessary to activate it a s a independent and /or added action.


Therefore, no transfer is needed. 

Examples of TRANSFER http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer

We transferred the baby's car seat to the other car.
The patient was transferred to a different hospital.
transfer data on the hard drive to a disk
He transferred my call to another line.
The virus is transferred by mosquitoes.
He transferred control of the company to his son.
She was able to transfer her organizational skills to her new job.
Her skills transferred well to her new job.


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## PSE Archer

EPLC said:


> Therefore, no transfer is needed.
> 
> Examples of TRANSFER http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer
> 
> We transferred the baby's car seat to the other car.
> The patient was transferred to a different hospital.
> transfer data on the hard drive to a disk
> He transferred my call to another line.
> The virus is transferred by mosquitoes.
> He transferred control of the company to his son.
> She was able to transfer her organizational skills to her new job.
> Her skills transferred well to her new job.


Referring to Webster? Now that's a great resource for archery knowledge. 

The transfer I am referring to is taught in every properly ran JOAD program. It is taught as part of the process in every Level 1-2-3 and 4 USA/NFAA course. To some it is a natural part of the shot, some have to work on it. Never the less it is part of the process - but that depends on who's Kool aid your drinking I guess.


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## SonnyThomas

PSE Archer said:


> Referring to Webster? Now that's a great resource for archery knowledge.
> 
> The transfer I am referring to is taught in every properly ran JOAD program. It is taught as part of the process in every Level 1-2-3 and 4 USA/NFAA course. To some it is a natural part of the shot, some have to work on it. Never the less it is part of the process - but that depends on who's Kool aid your drinking I guess.


 Ask your JOAD coach if you can draw with back as part of the drawing process.....


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## EPLC

PSE Archer said:


> Referring to Webster? Now that's a great resource for archery knowledge.
> 
> The transfer I am referring to is taught in every properly ran JOAD program. It is taught as part of the process in every Level 1-2-3 and 4 USA/NFAA course. To some it is a natural part of the shot, some have to work on it. Never the less it is part of the process - but that depends on who's Kool aid your drinking I guess.


You have my full permission to transfer your little heart out as I wasn't commenting on anything you posted. What I was pointing out was the seemingly contradictory statement in another post. Namely, you cannot "transfer" what is already there.


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## PSE Archer

SonnyThomas said:


> Ask your JOAD coach if you can draw with back as part of the drawing process.....


I am the JOAD Coach.


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## PSE Archer

EPLC said:


> You have my full permission to transfer your little heart out as I wasn't commenting on anything you posted. What I was pointing out was the seemingly contradictory statement in another post. Namely, you cannot "transfer" what is already there.


As a result you do not know what "transfer" is.


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## unclejane

PSE Archer said:


> As a result you do not know what "transfer" is.


Honest question, because I swear - I have never learned this teaching correctly or understood it from an actual coach. But I've heard about it frequently. What is this "transfer" process? I may or may not have adopted something like this on my own, but I honestly don't know what this is. 

LS


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## ron w

yes, tell us please,....what is this "transfer" that we all don't have any clue what is?.
it's real easy to pick apart someone's post " in a literal sense". as an example, someone says, " the sight moves"....and literal interpretation is...."well the sight doesn't move itself, so you don't know what you're talking about". it would be wonderful, if we all didn't need to think a little, as we read.
literal dissection is a cheapskate excuse for the real fact that one doesn't understand what is being talked about or one doesn't agree with what is being said, and wants to be sarcastic in their disagreement. 
the real issue, is that when this happens one has gone into their adolescent frustrated attitude, because the poster has given irrefutable evidence that clearly supports the post being disagreed with. 
we are all adults here, with the same intention of learning how to shoot better......put on your "big boy pants and your thinking caps, read the post and think a little bit about what has been said.
this is the last post i'm going to make in this thread, it is clearly evident that no matter what is said, there's a group of "little boys" here, that just don't want to told anything and refuse to think like adults.


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## PSE Archer

unclejane said:


> Honest question, because I swear - I have never learned this teaching correctly or understood it from an actual coach. But I've heard about it frequently. What is this "transfer" process? I may or may not have adopted something like this on my own, but I honestly don't know what this is.
> 
> LS


The transfer phase of the shot happens naturally for some, other have to work on it. Either way - IT IS PART OF THE PROCESS>

Say your pulling a 60lb peak draw weight bow. At 65% LO you will be holding around 21lbs. There has to be some tension in the arm/fingers to get the bow drawn and to anchor. It is physically impossible to draw with 100% of the back. There has to be some amount of forearm/bicep tension. There is even tension in the bow hand. - This tension - is bled down into the back. As the draw arm relaxes, the back tension increases. That my friend is transfer. We all do it. It is an inheirent part of the process. We all know to incorporate the rhomboids in the draw cycle. That is a given in a good draw cycle. I like how N7709 explains having "soft hands". That is transfer.

Its that simple.


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## Lazarus

unclejane said:


> Honest question, because I swear - I have never learned this teaching correctly or understood it from an actual coach. But I've heard about it frequently. What is this "transfer" process? I may or may not have adopted something like this on my own, but I honestly don't know what this is.
> 
> LS


A fairly simple explanation of the "transfer" can be found on page 64 of Rick McKinney's book called "The Confident Shot." I'm not going to plagiarize it but it revolves around drawing with a relaxed bow arm and soft hands, the power of the draw comes from the draw arm, at full draw transfer (I personally interpret "transfer" to mean momentary consciousness) to the back which locks the draw in place, draw arm and hand relaxes, shot goes off.

If I feel motivated today I might look for some other examples from people who know what they're doing.


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## unclejane

PSE Archer said:


> The transfer phase of the shot happens naturally for some, other have to work on it. Either way - IT IS PART OF THE PROCESS>
> 
> Say your pulling a 60lb peak draw weight bow. At 65% LO you will be holding around 21lbs. There has to be some tension in the arm/fingers to get the bow drawn and to anchor. It is physically impossible to draw with 100% of the back. There has to be some amount of forearm/bicep tension. There is even tension in the bow hand. - This tension - is bled down into the back. As the draw arm relaxes, the back tension increases. That my friend is transfer. We all do it. It is an inheirent part of the process. We all know to incorporate the rhomboids in the draw cycle. That is a given in a good draw cycle. I like how N7709 explains having "soft hands". That is transfer.
> 
> Its that simple.


Ah, ok, thanks.... I do recall having seen this chart before back when I was first learning recurve. I do something like what I think is this in part of my "checklist", one of those being checking for relaxed shoulders and forearm muscles - the idea I have is ending up with the back muscles doing the hold and the arms are just like chains with hooks on them. Hard to explain which clues me in that I may not have learnt this entirely right.

One day I may try to get an actual coach to look at what I'm doing, tho, to make sure I'm actually doing this. This is emphasized enough that I trust it's something I should learn right lol...

Thanks!

LS


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## unclejane

Lazarus said:


> A fairly simple explanation of the "transfer" can be found on page 64 of Rick McKinney's book called "The Confident Shot." I'm not going to plagiarize it but it revolves around drawing with a relaxed bow arm and soft hands, the power of the draw comes from the draw arm, at full draw transfer (I personally interpret "transfer" to mean momentary consciousness) to the back which locks the draw in place, draw arm and hand relaxes, shot goes off.
> 
> If I feel motivated today I might look for some other examples from people who know what they're doing.


Ok, thanks... Never read RM's book, but I should probably pick it up and do so....

LS


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## PSE Archer

Lazarus said:


> A fairly simple explanation of the "transfer" can be found on page 64 of Rick McKinney's book called "The Confident Shot." I'm not going to plagiarize it but it revolves around drawing with a relaxed bow arm and soft hands, the power of the draw comes from the draw arm, at full draw transfer (I personally interpret "transfer" to mean momentary consciousness) to the back which locks the draw in place, draw arm and hand relaxes, shot goes off.
> 
> If I feel motivated today I might look for some other examples from people who know what they're doing.


Thanks


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## Lazarus

unclejane, it will be a pretty tough find. It's been out of print for years. I haven't checked online for it though. If you do find it just remember, it's written from a recurve/clicker perspective, obviously not everything applies to compound/release shooting, but most does. 

I personally read everything I can from all of the early pioneers of competitive archery. You might read a whole book to get one nugget. But that one nugget is often worth it.


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## Lazarus

Also, don't confuse the "Confident Shot" with "The Simple Art of Winning" also by Rick McKinney which is still readily available. In my opinion "The Confident Shot" is 100 times better book than "The Simple Art of Winning." It's good, just not near as good. As always, my opinion only.


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## unclejane

Lazarus said:


> unclejane, it will be a pretty tough find. It's been out of print for years. I haven't checked online for it though. If you do find it just remember, it's written from a recurve/clicker perspective, obviously not everything applies to compound/release shooting, but most does.
> 
> I personally read everything I can from all of the early pioneers of competitive archery. You might read a whole book to get one nugget. But that one nugget is often worth it.


Ok, I'll see if I can get hold of these you've mentioned. I do have to credit my recurve/clicker career (I use the term lightly lol) with significantly helping me with target panic as well as the basics of using back tension in the draw and hold. Before that I always drew and held everything with my arms lol.

But this is one of the things I'm really inconsistent with - sometimes I have too much tension in the arms and sometimes they're totally relaxed and it all feels just right. So I'm thinking this is a fundamental that I never learned the way it probably ought to be learned. So I'm looking at it again.... 

I should break down and probably get a coach too, at some point in the game....

LS


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## SonnyThomas

PSE Archer said:


> The transfer phase of the shot happens naturally for some, other have to work on it. Either way - IT IS PART OF THE PROCESS>
> 
> Say your pulling a 60lb peak draw weight bow. At 65% LO you will be holding around 21lbs. There has to be some tension in the arm/fingers to get the bow drawn and to anchor. It is physically impossible to draw with 100% of the back. There has to be some amount of forearm/bicep tension. There is even tension in the bow hand. - This tension - is bled down into the back. As the draw arm relaxes, the back tension increases. That my friend is transfer. We all do it. It is an inheirent part of the process. We all know to incorporate the rhomboids in the draw cycle. That is a given in a good draw cycle. I like how N7709 explains having "soft hands". That is transfer.
> 
> Its that simple.


So you got on the War Path because something wasn't said as you were told/instructed and have on the brain. No one said it was fully back tension used to draw the bow, just that the back was engaged, used in conjunction with other muscles.....Maybe I read it different than you did.

I know that if I use back tension in conjunction with other muscles back tension is already present. At full draw, yep, I can relax my arms. I can't say back tension increases as I've just held the release fired/fires. Increase in back tension can disturb the shot. We learn what we need to make the release to fire.


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## unclejane

Aw c'mon fellers, ya'll give PSE a break lol. I'm reading not only his comments but ron and Sonny's and Laz's and everyone's comments on this because this is an area where I'm not sure what the right thing is for me to do here. I'm absorbing as much of everything yall are all saying as I can on this. The picture kind of helps me assemble it in my mind also. Everything ya'll are saying seems valuable to me so keep your approaches coming, I need to learn as much as I can on this aspect.

LS


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## PSE Archer

SonnyThomas said:


> ......I know that if I use back tension in conjunction with other muscles back tension is already present. At full draw, yep, I can relax my arms. I can't say back tension increases as I've just held the release fired/fires. Increase in back tension can disturb the shot. We learn what we need to make the release to fire.


I find I make my best shots from staying dynamic as opposed to static. Thus I must increase the tension in my back to stay dynamic. I use BT to execute my shot. The rotation of the increasing tension also creates a solid down and around follow through for me. But that's me.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> yes I did,...and again....when you draw putting your rhomboids into the drawing process, there is no transfer to backtension with your rhomboids necessary, it is already in, or a part of, the musculature that is being performed. as you come to full draw, the tension in you rhomboids is already there.





PSE Archer said:


> I feel better now with your explanation. You just explained you have no idea what the transfer step of the process is.





SonnyThomas said:


> *18 people can tell how the rhomboids work and not one of them correct, not a one of them wrong. You want to be #19?*





unclejane said:


> Aw c'mon fellers, ya'll give PSE a break lol. I'm reading not only his comments but ron and Sonny's and Laz's and everyone's comments on this because this is an area where I'm not sure what the right thing is for me to do here. I'm absorbing as much of everything yall are all saying as I can on this. The picture kind of helps me assemble it in my mind also. Everything ya'll are saying seems valuable to me so keep your approaches coming, I need to learn as much as I can on this aspect.
> 
> LS


He charged and passed on. I gave him a break. It took 15 replies before he coughed it up 

We're all different. Coach has 12 students before him. They're are not on the assembly line getting put together. You can't throw the same gasket on each one because they are all different. Say something to one and another takes it differently, but applies it the same way told. You can't get around it, we're just plain different. 

Okay, in another Thread.... I looked up "consciousness." I read only "quickies" of the list Google gave. 14 doctors or brain nuts gave 14 different meanings or ways of what consciousness is. Okay, real short, if we aren't conscious our subconscious can't function. It's no wonder we're screwed up  

I apologize for being the way I am, but I ain't changing


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## unclejane

SonnyThomas said:


> He charged and passed on. I gave him a break. It took 15 replies before he coughed it up


Lol... Sonny, don't care what they say, you rock.....


> We're all different. Coach has 12 students before him. They're are not on the assembly line getting put together. You can't throw the same gasket on each one because they are all different. Say something to one and another takes it differently, but applies it the same way told. You can't get around it, we're just plain different.
> 
> Okay, in another Thread.... I looked up "consciousness." I read only "quickies" of the list Google gave. 14 doctors or brain nuts gave 14 different meanings or ways of what consciousness is. Okay, real short, if we aren't conscious our subconscious can't function. It's no wonder we're screwed up
> 
> I apologize for being the way I am, but I ain't changing


Well on the original subject, I have to say it's only in the last couple of weeks I've actually gotten strong enough to draw my supra max with Alistair W.'s "single closing movement" - basically straight back with as much of the back muscles as possible. So in other words, I'm only just now about to draw my bow period lol... So I guess refining this will be a future exercise...
I can do almost 30 shafts in a day now. Baby steps.. 

LS


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## sharpstick

When I first learned to shoot back tension I knew after the first 2 days of shooting that I was pinpointing my rhomboid. It was sore and a bit knotted up from such a focused use. This I thought was strange for me, I rock climbed hard for several years and have very good muscle tone in my back. After looking for some time I found a stretch that works for the rhomboid. For me it was hard to find a stretch that worked, it's just hard to pin point. Here's what I do. While in a seated position grab the outside of your right foot (barefoot works best for me) with your right hand. Then straighten that right leg and pull against that foot while "opening " or bowing your back. It takes some practice to find where you can feel that rhomboid. Once you feel you've found it you then move your right hand and foot down diagonally left to increase the stretch. The older you get I think the more important it is stretch, it's an important part of strength training imo. I'd be interested in hearing about any rhomboid stretches anyone would care to share. By the way what I described is for the right side because that's where I have most problems being a right handed shooter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SonnyThomas

Stretching....67 next month and I just haul back and shoot. That said, my shoulder being overhauled I ran into issues that returning to stretching my shoulder corrected my shoulder not behaving as it should. Some stretching/training doesn't help. For whatever reason my back tension works so long and then just sort of quits. I can hold with back tension, but my rhomboids quit responding. My scapula was detached in the accident and had to be re-attached, so maybe some bodily "communication" or strength issues.


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