# Gun controll....



## Silver Pine (Dec 9, 2005)

You forgot to add your opinion of the AP article you pasted. :dontknow:


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

Silver Pine said:


> You forgot to add your opinion of the AP article you pasted. :dontknow:


I didn't forget.I just posted it for some to read or comment if they chose to do so.Seems like here latly that the threads of obama and dems wants to take our 2nd amendment rights away from us are never ending and thats just not so.


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## Dchiefransom (Jan 16, 2006)

You mean that limiting our possession of firearms for defense, and letting the aliens sneaking into the country sue us for stopping them at gunpoint won't make us safer?


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

Dchiefransom said:


> You mean that limiting our possession of firearms for defense, and letting the aliens sneaking into the country sue us for stopping them at gunpoint won't make us safer?


On the contrary....80% of the guns being used by the aliens in Mexico....come from the US.


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## Dchiefransom (Jan 16, 2006)

IChim2 said:


> On the contrary....80% of the guns being used by the aliens in Mexico....come from the US.



How are they getting into Mexico if they are being purchased legally here in the U.S.? I wonder if Mexico would like to show all those SUVs being used down there, even by their government, that are stolen here in the U.S.


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## Silver Pine (Dec 9, 2005)

IChim2 said:


> I didn't forget.I just posted it for some to read or comment if they chose to do so.Seems like here latly that the threads of obama and dems wants to take our 2nd amendment rights away from us are never ending and thats just not so.





IChim2 said:


> On the contrary....80% of the guns being used by the aliens in Mexico....come from the US.



Obama has surrounded himself with anti-gun advisors and cabinet members. Emanual, Axlerod, Arne Duncan, Carl Sunstein, Clinton, Holder, Hilda Solis, Lisa Jackson, etc. The only other qualification seems to be an ability to not pay their taxes. 

You'll have to post a link to back up your "80%" claim and that "aliens" are using the guns in Mexico. (Illegal/legal aliens not little green men.)

I know of only one case in the U.S. where a gun shop owner has been charged with selling firearms to Mexican drug cartels. One! The cartels are operating a $13 billion dollar per year, tax free, illegal enterprise and they can buy firearms by the boatload from China, Syria, Iran or any of our other enemies. Both U.S. and Mexican news coverage have shown hand grenades and full-auto weapons being confiscated down there and those didn't come from here. 

Your Democrat leadership is using the inability of the Mexican government to control the cartels as yet another excuse to disarm honest, law-abiding U.S. citizens.

:cocktail:


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

Silver Pine said:


> Obama has surrounded himself with anti-gun advisors and cabinet members. Emanual, Axlerod, Arne Duncan, Carl Sunstein, Clinton, Holder, Hilda Solis, Lisa Jackson, etc. The only other qualification seems to be an ability to not pay their taxes.
> 
> You'll have to post a link to back up your "80%" claim and that "aliens" are using the guns in Mexico. (Illegal/legal aliens not little green men.)
> 
> ...


As far as posting a link....I'm going by what most go by...it was said on fox news,msmbc and sunday morning.Believe it..or don't believe it.I'm not anti gun...i own over 30 + my father in law owns over 50 that my wife and i will end up with...but in all honest,i don't fear the gov taking our guns away,maybe the state one day,but not the gov.Luckly our state isn't stirring up any crap right now the same as some of the other states.Besides...any gun that i own is strickly a hunting gun...no ak's etc...This world isn't the same one we walked in 10 yr's ago and it doesn't mater if the president is a dem or rep.....the gun issue is not going away...not today,not 5yrs from now.It's easy to sling mud at the dem's.....try slinging it at the thugs who are mis-using the guns that calls for things to be changed.


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## Silver Pine (Dec 9, 2005)

IChim2 said:


> As far as posting a link....I'm going by what most go by...it was said on fox news,msmbc and sunday morning.Believe it..or don't believe it.I'm not anti gun...i own over 30 + my father in law owns over 50 that my wife and i will end up with...but in all honest,i don't fear the gov taking our guns away,maybe the state one day,but not the gov.Luckly our state isn't stirring up any crap right now the same as some of the other states.Besides...any gun that i own is strickly a hunting gun...no ak's etc...This world isn't the same one we walked in 10 yr's ago and it doesn't mater if the president is a dem or rep.....the gun issue is not going away...not today,not 5yrs from now.It's easy to sling mud at the dem's.....try slinging it at the thugs who are mis-using the guns that calls for things to be changed.



I'm too old to begin believing what "they" say. I've heard far too many lies, cleverly worded non-denial denials and spin doctors pushing their particular agendas. I prefer to gather as much information as I can and then make my own "informed" decision. 

My logic tells me that the 80% figure was pulled out of someone's......uhm, thin air unless "they" have actually canvased the drug cartels to see what firearms they have. I don't think anyone has been that brave/stoopid. 

(An Obama spokesman just said on FOX that the number is 90%.  )

It is easy to blame the Dems because the current Democrat leadership has an established history of trying to register/regulate/ban/outlaw/confiscate firearms and ammunition. The Democrat party platform called for re-establishment of the Clinton gun ban even though it has been PROVEN not to have had ANY effect on crime. 

Manditory 5 year sentencing for anyone using a firearm in a violent crime DOES have an effect on crime but the ACLU believes that takes away from a judges discretion in sentencing. :frusty:

You are correct that the gun issue isn't going away. That's why we must make our opinions know to elected City, State and Federal officials. Tell them that we demand that they pass laws to put the violent criminals in prison and leave them there. If a violent criminal commits 1 crimminal act every week, then there will be 52 less crimes committed each and every year they are behind bars. 5 years means 260 less crimes. 

There are millions of gun owners in this country who aren't committing violent crimes and only want to protect themselves as described in the Constitution. Disarming them only creates more opportunities for criminals. 

:cocktail:


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## Yellowfin (Mar 6, 2007)

IChim2 said:


> On the contrary....80% of the guns being used by the aliens in Mexico....come from the US.


 Because we have select fire AK's made in China and Russia available for $50 or less? Get real. Do you really think for a second that people who have absolutely no problem with thousands of tons of cocaine, meth, and heroin streaming effortlessly through their country into ours would bother for one second to buy something that's more expensive from the US instead of getting something full auto and much easier to get and cheaper on the world market?


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## Michigan Bob (Oct 26, 2002)

My thoughts I spent 3 years in the active army 10 years in the army reserve and eight years in the national guard. Now every year we spent 2 weeks at summer camp, some of it spent during the Regan Admin. in Honduras. Quite an expense to get units in and out of centeral america for two weeks. Why can we not send the units to the boarder for thier two weeks to keep these idiots south of the border. Seems eazy to me. When I was in Korea thats what we were doing and it worked. And they did it for years in Germany.


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## Cyrille (Nov 30, 2008)

This isn't going to happen because of the A.C.L.U. and various and sundrey other "bleeding heart", fuzzy feeling, Utopians who believe the death penalty for murderers, rapests, kidnappers, and other viloent crime advocats ie baby beaters, senior citizen beaters, etc. is inhumaine. But the penalty of death for this type of miscredent is justified. 
Never mind, trying to ease their passage into the other demention by making it as painless as possible. *Public hanging* should be their doom.


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

IChim2 said:


> On the contrary....80% of the guns being used by the aliens in Mexico....come from the US.


Your source for this factual information is who ? The Obama administration.


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

To the libs on here....The ATF told the Senators on the investigating committee that the 80% could NOT be substantiated ....in other words it is a LIE. Considering the fact that there are those with in the Mexican Army that are on the payroll of the drug dealers and the huge sums of cash involved....they can get their guns from the Army or else where.....now quit watching CNN !!......ukey:


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Silver Pine said:


> ........Democrat leadership is using the inability of the Mexican government to control the cartels as yet another excuse to disarm honest, law-abiding U.S. citizens.


^ +1

...and, this is coupled with the inability of the US to control the movement of illegal aliens accross the southern border. We might have the "front door" locked, but they're crawling in through the "windows". 

Then, like dchiefransom alluded to, when we catch them crawling in through those "windows", with illegal contraband no less, and use force to stop them, they sue and our hear-anything courts allow it. The ultimate slap in the face to legal, law abiding citizens....much like a lot of the rights illegal aliens have been "given" over the years. We need to somehow "give" them the right to pay taxes (hate to say it) and find a way out of this mess.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I like Meat said:


> ....The ATF told the Senators on the investigating committee that the 80% could NOT be substantiated ....


As someone who works in finance and accounting, I always greet numbers with skepticism.

A little dash of common sense goes a long way too....as Silver Pine eloquently pointed out: "My logic tells me that the 80% figure was pulled out of someone's......uhm, thin air unless "they" have actually canvased the drug cartels to see what firearms they have. I don't think anyone has been that brave/stoopid." LOL


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## varcher (Dec 6, 2006)

When it comes to gun rights, the very last people I will trust are Democrats which 9 times out of 10 are liberal. You can say what you want, but Obama and the overwhelming majority of Democrats are anti-gun.


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## Dchiefransom (Jan 16, 2006)

I like Meat said:


> To the libs on here....The ATF told the Senators on the investigating committee that the 80% could NOT be substantiated ....in other words it is a LIE. Considering the fact that there are those with in the Mexican Army that are on the payroll of the drug dealers and the huge sums of cash involved....they can get their guns from the Army or else where.....now quit watching CNN !!......ukey:


It's not just the 80% number. One article said there were 12,000 gun shops in the area of the US border with Mexico. 12,000?????????


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## Silver Pine (Dec 9, 2005)

The one and only case that has brought against a U.S. gun shop for selling firearms to Mexican drug cartels has been dismissed. The State provided no evidence that the shop sold firearms to anyone who couldn't legally own one. 

If Holder, Clinton, Obama and the BATFE were actually trying to stop this "alleged" flow of "semi-auto" firearms into Mexico - I'm sure that the cartels will be more than willing to cooperate with the investigation 

Or will the leading CONGRESSIONAL Democrats and Obama appointees look for another phoney excuse to ban/restrict/confiscate firearms in this country. 

Maybe Holder, Clinton and Obama (Oh, My!) should be demanding to know where the cartels are buying their hand grenades and rocket launchers. Arizona Slims Pawn and Bait shop? The Alamo dollar store?



_....Because the gun buyers all were eligible to acquire firearms, he (the judge) said, their deception did not amount to a "material falsification." Consequently, Gottsfield ruled, the evidence did not show felonious conduct by Iknadosian. 

But in mid-trial, all 21 counts were dismissed by Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Robert Gottsfield, who decided he had found a flaw in the government's case.

Gottsfield issued a directed verdict of not guilty for Iknadosian, 47, who was charged with fraud, money-laundering and other offenses.

Gottsfield dismissed jurors and granted acquittal in response to a so-called Rule 20 motion sought by Baker. Under Arizona law, Rule 20 holds that a case must be thrown out if the state's evidence is inadequate for conviction.

"There is no proof whatsoever that any prohibited (firearm) possessor ended up with the firearms," he said._

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/03/18/20090318guns0318-ON.html


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## oakridgehunter (Feb 28, 2009)

Thank you Silver Pine and Michigan Bob (and others) for showing a great deal of common sense on this issue. It is long overdue that we control criminals and politicians and not guns. If the government becomes strong enough to take away the right to own guns for self-defense, hunting, target competition, etc., then it will be strong enough to take away all of our rights and enslave us all.


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## tracy bullock (Jun 5, 2007)

Guns don't kill people,people kill people.And what about BULLET control??more bs.----Where did all that millions of$of money that was found in Iraq possesed by Sadom come from??You really think the gov. is going to mark all the ammo used by the military?I think not!!!!The gov. as usual is looking for someone to point the fingure at........


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## UCNYbowhunter (Mar 31, 2007)

If NYS has there way micro stamping will be a reality.All hand loads will need to be gone by a certain date then no more.Tax the snot out of ammo so you can't shoot your guns(500%)Lable semi-autos assault weapons and there banned.The new VP says he wrote the assauty weapon ban from Clinton era we will see what happens.I only have 3 bullets for my 1 gun


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## Silver Pine (Dec 9, 2005)

90% originated in the U.S. ?


Statement of William Hoover, Assistant Director for Field Operations, Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (did anyone bring sandwiches?)
Before the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary Subcommitee on Crime and Drugs
March 17, 2009

_......Because firearms are not readily available in Mexico, drug traffickers have aggressively turned to the U.S. as their primary source. Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that "could be traced" were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S._

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/cngrtest/ct031709.pdf


This morning, Fox News reported (and by reported, I mean they had actually sent a human being into Mexico, who had actually talked to Mexico's AG and reported the findings not the standard media reading of political party supplied horse-poop) that the number of U.S. originated, semi-auto firearms found in the hands of Mexican drug cartels is 17%. 

FN's reported Mexico's AG confiscated/captured 29,000 weapons. 11,000 (38%) *were selected for trace* but only 6,000 (20%) were *actually traced*, of which 5,000 (*17%*) came from the U.S..

Not exactly what Hoover (D), Holder (D), Hillary (D), Pelosi (D), Emanual (D), Durbin (D), Obama (D), etc. have been saying now, is it? 

There was no explaination of how hand grenades and full-auto weapons find their way into the hands of the cartels. 


Along the same lines, our country can now rest easy knowing that a Senator from one of the most corrupt states with the least effective criminal control, strongest gun-control laws, highest gun violence rates, highest rate of gang members per population, lowest number of gang member incarcerations is now in-charge of Crime and Drugs nationwide. (I wonder if he knows he's suppose to be fighting against them?)

_Dick Durbin (D-Chicago) became Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Crime and Drugs Subcommittee last month. Besides the issues surrounding Mexican drug cartels, Durbin plans to focus the Subcommittee’s efforts on issues including federal support for state and local law enforcement, gang violence, racial disparities in the criminal justice system, sentencing reform, and prison reform._

http://durbin.senate.gov/showRelease.cfm?releaseId=309900

Chicago-style - which means there will be an increase in the number of political hires hiring other political hires and a reduction in actual crime fighting. 

:cocktail:


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## junker (Jul 11, 2008)

we should battle the cartels with our bows. we could pour oil on our broadheads, light them, and fire them across the border.


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

Silver Pine said:


> 90% originated in the U.S. ?
> 
> 
> Statement of William Hoover, Assistant Director for Field Operations, Bureau of
> ...


Thanks Silver Pine.... It is what I said earlier....most guns are coming from illegal GOVERNMENT sales and military......not from legit US gun stores......once again this anti-gun administration lies about firearms to further their anti-gun agenda........:darkbeer:.........Foxnews has an excellent report on this today......the lies of the Ahhhbama administration continue.....


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

IChim2 said:


> ISeems like here latly that the threads of obama and dems wants to take our 2nd amendment rights away from us are never ending and thats just not so.


I hope this was an early April fools joke and you are not really this naieve.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

I like Meat said:


> Thanks Silver Pine.... It is what I said earlier....most guns are coming from illegal GOVERNMENT sales and military......not from legit US gun stores......once again this anti-gun administration lies about firearms to further their anti-gun agenda........:darkbeer:.........Foxnews has an excellent report on this today......the lies of the Ahhhbama administration continue.....


Exactly. Why would the cartels use grenades, mortars, RPG's and then settle for wimpy little semi auto AK clones bought legally in the US? The answer is, they wouldn't. These weapons are coming from South and Central America more than likely.


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