# Win&Win Risers???



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

With the understanding that I know very little about olympic recurves could someone help me with the differences, pros & cons on the following Win & Win products... Thanks in advance.

$169.99 KAP WinStar - Single forged aluminum - I'm curious about this one vs the others. It's a 25", 2 lb 11 oz riser. 
$399.99 W&W Exfeel - Machined aluminum
$449.99 W&W New Infinite - Composite
$299.99 W&W Winact - Forged aluminum
$499.99 W&W Xpert NX - ???


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

All are forged and machined except for the Winstar.


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## atyau (Oct 11, 2004)

I believe that the winstar is also forged aluminum with CNC machining...All of W&W's risers are CNCed except for the Evo2 which if just cast.

Basically aside from the difference in weight, stiffness, and shape; the Winstar, Exfeel, and Winact are the same riser...Just a machined Deflex aluminum handle with Tiller and Limb alignment adjustments.
The Infinite and Experts are also forged aluminum with CNC aided machining, BUT they also have carbon epoxied on to the riser for added stiffness in "Crutial areas". The Expert has a layer of foam between the aluminum and carbon to add shock absorbsion. And, also keep in mind that the Infinite doesn't have an adjustable/upgradable grip; it either fits or doesn't.
The Winstar and Winact use W&W's older limb alignment system that IMO wasn't that hot, but it got the job done.
The Expert, Infinite, and Exfeel all use the "newer" limb alignment system which IMO is still not that hot...They are both cumbersome, and a little tricky to use.

If I may, do take a look at the Hoyt Matrix and Aerotec, which are both in the price range of the exfeel+...Solid performer, IMO a Sexiest risers, and best/simplest/"set and forget" limb alignment system out there


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Thanks for the input, Hoyt also has a $169.99 riser... 

HOYT GM RISER

• 25” RISER LENGTH
• 2LBS. 9OZ. MASS WEIGHT
• IDEAL FOR INTRODUCTORY RECURVE SHOOTING
• MAGNESIUM CONSTRUCTION
• ORIGINAL EARL HOYT GEOMETRY
• ACCURATE YET ECONOMICAL
• ILF (INTERNATIONAL LIMB FITTING)
• AVAILABLE COLORS:
+Red +Blue +Black +Yellow

Which is a better deal, the GM or the KAP Winstar? I think I'm going to go for the "cheap" and combine one of these risers with a set of medium 38# Hoyt Epic or 38# KAP Challenger Carbon limbs. Your thoughts?


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## atyau (Oct 11, 2004)

I personally shoot hoyt, but I am going to have to say that the Winstar is a better bang for your buck. Reasons is that its aluminum vs magnesium which is stronger and lighter. But, I think the biggest reason is that the Winstar offers a limb alignment system. Alot of people think that this is a pointless feature for a begginer, but I have had a few sets of "High End" limbs that were out of center so...And, I think the biggest thing is that the Winstar is cheaper lol!


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

The difference is quality of the final product. Theoretically, the QC on the higher end products is much better than on the lower end items. The infinite is an interesting riser, then it became the expert and now the expert nx. Neat, but very expensive.

Anyway, back to your question. Forged vs machined. The riser starts out as a tube or bar of aluminum and is placed in a die where it is pounded under heat etc to shape. Obviously there are some drawbacks to this method, namely quality control. Another one is that you can't anodize forged risers, you have to paint them because of the hammering of the metal. Well, you can, but it comes out ugly.

Machined risers are made by taking a solid block of aluminum and sticking it into a cnc machine. The cnc machine basically drills out the shape of the riser, which is then sent for finishing. The advantage to this method is that it is easier to ensure uniform finished units that meet the specifications of the manufacturer.

Now, which is better? As with most things, price is a good indicator of quality. Sometimes high price is due to excessive demand, but thats a different subject.


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

Win & Win began anodizing their risers in 2005. If you're a beginner I would get the GM. It's a great riser. Limb alignment systems are overrated, plus it's just another headache for beginners to worry about. I've shot W&W since 1995. My favorite was their Excalibur riser, even though it was 23". It was their first riser with carbon bias. The carbon was in the cut out holes and the carbon had the clear rubber coat on it. Like on the logos of hoyt risers. The excalibur had a unique grip and it fit perfectly in my hand. W&W riser's are not basically the same. Each one is balanced differently and has a different feel. If you look at the shape of the ExFeel and Infinite, those risers have an "S" shaped. Other W&W risers and most recurve risers have the classic "C" shape. 
Anyway, the GM is an excellent riser and has won numerous medals and holds a number of world records. It's cheap so it won't put a big dent in your wallet. I've heard a lot of complaints of the Winstar and have seen a couple risers that have cracked, including ExFeel, Infinite, and Expert risers. Forged risers have a possibility of having air bubbles that results from the forging process which can create weak spots.
I'm currently shooting a Matrix. I've been using an ExFeel and Infinite before I switched. I didn't like the new limb alignment system. There's too much play in the screws and sometimes the adjustments would slip and my limbs would be off. The old winact system was easier to use and stayed locked.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

the forged riser was theoretically stronger-the best looking riser ever may have been the forged late great Yamaha SuperFeel. The WW bows use 7000 series aluminum which is said to be stronger than the 6000 series stuff used by most others-that being said, I have a sky riser that is 9 years old that has a ton of shots through it and its still basically perfect.

The WW risers are about the only major brand risers I never shot in competition-I had a WINACT and one of my students has the Infinity. I never liked the grip on those bows and a few of them cannot be rigged with a backweight which I used as well. I much preferred the Samick Ultra as Korean bows go despite a lack of a BW bushing. Now that the Korean risers are as expensive as the Hoyt I don't recommend them to my students-if they don't l ike the Hoyt or the PSE or the Mathews version of the Sky-the Spigarelli is what I recommend-top flight stuff IMHO (My wife shoots them in FITA BB)

as to limb alignment-the SKY system was the best IMHO-6 sky risers-several dozen limbs-all straight. I have a matrix that after lots of playing around I almost got lined up-same with an xfactor I set up. almost every time I set up a bow and it was off-the problem was the riser, not the limbs. its hard to get those things perfectly straight while keeping the price down to say 400 or so dollars-look at the stabilizer line up on many high end risers-not perfectly straight either.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If you're a beginner I would get the GM. It's a great riser. Limb alignment systems are overrated, plus it's just another headache for beginners to worry about.


I agree. A good GM riser never goes out of style, and it can compete with any riser out there. Limb alignment systems are just another thing to worry about that you don't need right now. If your limbs are off, you can always shim a GM riser too, which if done correctly, aligns the riser and limbs without any screws to come loose or silly gimmicks.



> almost every time I set up a bow and it was off-the problem was the riser, not the limbs. its hard to get those things perfectly straight while keeping the price down to say 400 or so dollars-look at the stabilizer line up on many high end risers-not perfectly straight either.


This is what I've seen as well. And what Jim says about the stabilizer bushing is true. You might be able to line up the limbs on some of the high-end risers, but rarely will the stabilizer line up as well. This usually leads to folks having misaligned setups, as they try to line up the string with the stabilizer without checking to see if it's straight or not.

Incidentally, a perfectly straight stabilizer isn't all that important either, but it's nice to have.

John.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Wow, a lot of good input. Thanks guy's! Sounds like both risers are well worth the money. How about the limbs, Hoyt Epic (glass/wood) :thumbs_up :thumbs_do or KAP Challenger (carbon)? :thumbs_up :thumbs_do 
Of course this may all boil down to availability... I'm only here in WA until December so long delivery times won't due. I need something asap.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

do..


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

So far I've decided to go with:

Riser - KAP Winstar or Hoyt GM (based on availability) $169.99
Limbs - 38# KAP Challenger ($199.99) or 38# Hoyt Epic ($219.99) (based on availability)

Need help on these...

Clicker - Help? Also, my hearing isn't the best, can you "feel" these?
Rest - Perhaps a W&W Magnetic ($8.99) 
Plunger - Don't really know, lots to choose from. Don't want to spend more than $30 - Help?
Sight - Help, on a budget.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

ELPC -

Try this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7186774559&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Challenger carbons, Beiter clicker (yes, you can feel these and in fact you're better off if you do), Rest - W&W is fine, but I'd pay the extra $10 for a basic ARE, Plunger - I had real good luck (i.e. made the Olympic team) with a Cartel copy of the Beiter plungers. Set me back about $17 each if I remember right. Otherwise, I like the Shibuya basic plunger. Sight - Either a W&W (about $139) or even better would be the Sure-loc Challenger.

Those are my picks, and I'm probably the posterchild for results on a budget... :wink: 

John.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well, I took the plunge this morning and ordered my riser & limbs, rest, plunger and clicker.

I went with the W&W riser (red), challenger carbon limbs and rest, Beiter clicker and a SHIBUYA DX PLUNGER.

I still haven't decided on a sight, I'm hoping to find a decent used one at a reasonable price...

Thanks to all that helped me out on this...


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## LarryA (May 18, 2005)

Paul,
Let me know when you are ready to get it set up, we will be shooting at WCW on Monday and Sunday evenings. Would be happy to help. (We can also discuss it before things come in.)
Larry


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## atyau (Oct 11, 2004)

How much is cheap?
I think the shibuyas or W&W are the best bang for your buck under 200...I personally perfer the wormgear over the sure locs or ultima...
Also cartel has a cheaper vesrion for around 50, although people say that they rattle.
Also, check ebay and the buy/sell/trade section here for used sights. I have seen alot of used challengers or sureloc Lites for well under 100.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

EPLC said:


> I still haven't decided on a sight, I'm hoping to find a decent used one at a reasonable price...


If you want to be REALLY cheap, just use one of your compound sights. If it is a Sureloc you can get a recurve aperture holder from Lancaster for about $20. Otherwise just buy a 10-32 sight ring instead of the standard 8-32. I shot an old Sureloc Challenger on my recurve until I got around to buying a recurve sight.

Used recurve sights prices run like used compound sights. The decent ones hold their value and are not cheap.


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