# Interesting tuning on Korean Ladies bow



## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I found that the front hole actually shot better than the standard setup for me. 

I don't know if this has something to do with where the nodes are located during arrow oscillation or what but my PB have all been with the front plunger hole.

But at my lvl it's probably more in my mind.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

Certainly a valid adjustment to tune, but very interesting to see it as a repeated pattern across a number of archers like that. Wonder what is driving that approach?


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## robin smith (Jun 6, 2011)

Wow that is a very astute observation, I am going to give it a try.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

generally the first hole has been used to tune a long arrow, but the arrows these ladies are shooting are normal length and they use a clicker attached to the riser. 


It will be interesting to see if they use this front hole for the outdoor World Cup events. Two of the LH Corp ladies, HyeJin Chang and Sung Eun Jeon are on the National Team. 


Chris


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

hooktonboy said:


> Certainly a valid adjustment to tune, but very interesting to see it as a repeated pattern across a number of archers like that. Wonder what is driving that approach?


Common coach. I wouldn't be too surprised if you'd see more orthodox approach when they shoot in national teams when they are passed on to more senior coach.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

zal said:


> Common coach. I wouldn't be too surprised if you'd see more orthodox approach when they shoot in national teams when they are passed on to more senior coach.


Two of the Ladies are Korean National team members. HyeJin Chang was 4th for her 2012 Olympic team selection and missed London by one qualifying match. She is currently ranked 14th in the world and won several medals at last years outdoor world cup season. She has been on the National team for a few years now. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nice catch. Not surprised that Chris spotted this, as he has unusually good observation skills.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

well, i did meet the ladies during Vegas and get up close when they were shooting the last day. First two days i shot on the same line and couldnt see much. I was able to sit by them for the last day while they shot the 10am line. ( I shot the 7am line on the same bale). 

but i do very much pay attention to what the Korean Ladies are doing from form to gear. Many many valuable lessons there for me. 

I am friends with the LH Corp ladies on Facebook and the first thing HyeJin Chang said to me at Vegas was FACEBOOK! 

I was quite happy to be recognized by her and the team. They find it bemusing and delightful that i post up photos and videos of them shooting the world circuit events that they dont always have access too. Many of their friends are on my page after shoots for my updates. 

from my vantage point it was easy to see the plunger hole and their gear up close. The first, third and fourth photo above are my photos i took. The second and fifth photo is from World Archery. 

These two below are my photos as well. Obviously i am a huge fan of the LH Corp Ladies. HyeJin Chang is my favorite competing archer.

View attachment 1884710


View attachment 1884711



Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Now that right there is how to be an archery fan! Good stuff Chris.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Now that right there is how to be an archery fan! Good stuff Chris.


thanks. 

The video of the LH ladies entitled "more tens" that Vittorio shared on Facebook and you commented on was from my video on my Facebook page. I was quite happy he shared it on his Facebook page. I love Facebook for Archery. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

And good for you for bringing more attention to the women's game. Despite the Korean women being unquestionably the greatest archers in the world, they are still buried in the press, behind the Brady's, Michele's, and Van der's... 

This sport (most sports) are so biased in favor of the men's game, and archery suffers from this.

Not only is the game at 70M much more difficult for the women than the men, but even when they meet that challenge, they are not rewarded with the recognition they deserve.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> And good for you for bringing more attention to the women's game. Despite the Korean women being unquestionably the greatest archers in the world, they are still buried in the press, behind the Brady's, Michele's, and Van der's...
> 
> This sport (most sports) are so biased in favor of the men's game, and archery suffers from this.
> 
> Not only is the game at 70M much more difficult for the women than the men, but even when they meet that challenge, they are not rewarded with the recognition they deserve.


I agree completely. I always find the women's teams much more exciting to watch, and they are the better archers with the higher scores and better form all the while shooting the distances at lower poundages. 


Chris


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## Gwen Sheppard (May 11, 2012)

I had a chance to watch them one evening. I found their matches much more enjoyable than the compound men. They were just as accurate. To me recurve archers seem more skillful.


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## Red01 (Sep 4, 2012)

I wonder if they are wanting to soot a stiffer arrow for some resin indoors. I moved to the front hole do to having bought way to stiff an arrow and moving it up there I would say weekend the dynamic spine by quite a bit. At the time I had 600 and probably should have had something around a 660 or so. Im reminded of some thing Vittorio had said that I've tried to take to hart. it went something like; elite archers pick arrows first and then a bow to match the arrow. So maybe they want to shoot 450s instead of 500s?

Cedrake


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Koreans have their own way to interpretate tuning but as far as some items are concerned, they just follow the general directions they get from their coaches conventions without questioning too much about their content and reasons. 
Just an example: in Belek WC 2013, a famous Korean coach was frankly surprised to observe that my daughter's string had tourns made clock wise on it. She said me "we don't do this, we use tourns counterclockwise only... and asked "why"? I said "we use clock wise strings for right hand arches and counterclockwise strings for left hand archers, usually". She looked thinking to the matter for a while, than archers had to shoot and conversation was over.
Of course, I have tested many times this matter in my life, without finding any practical difference between clockwise and counterclockwise strings, and I have just continued to follow the "traditional" way ... as I have learned to make strings clockwise and it comes easier to me. But, she was really surprised, thaty means that she did not know why, she never tested it and she never questioned herself before about it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If you just look at the typical Korean archer's string, it will tell you a lot about their equipment choices. Usually, they are very standard white Angel or FF strings that are well worn, and not particularly special in any way. 

One thing I love about the Korean women is that they serve as an example of how to keep things simple and still be the best at what they do. 

Look at their form. Simple, simple, simple. Square stance, parallel lines, simple setup, linear draw. 

Their equipment is the same. As simple as it gets. 

They are the "Xterra" of archery - everything you need, and nothing you don't.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> And good for you for bringing more attention to the women's game. Despite the Korean women being unquestionably the greatest archers in the world, they are still buried in the press, behind the Brady's, Michele's, and Van der's...
> 
> This sport (most sports) are so biased in favor of the men's game, and archery suffers from this.
> 
> Not only is the game at 70M much more difficult for the women than the men, but even when they meet that challenge, they are not rewarded with the recognition they deserve.


Completely agree.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

To follow what Limbwalker has said, I feel the top women are very consistent and similar (much more so than the men). Fluid but crisp motion. Quick but controlled shots. Great videos of the team practicing in Antalya:


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Even their stab set up looks the same for all of them. I don't know how they get the bow to roll so fast with so little weight on The end.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Long six inch extension places balance forward requiring less weight, perfect form with a relaxed bow hand helps as well.

Never needed more than 3oz up front my self either and typical side rods have 1 1/2 to 2oz. Even a big guy with aging shoulders likes to keep things light.



Dacer said:


> Even their stab set up looks the same for all of them. I don't know how they get the bow to roll so fast with so little weight on The end.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

They've really improved the practice facilities in Antalya since I was there last! Wow. Must have needed to for the world champ's.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> Koreans have their own way to interpretate tuning but as far as some items are concerned, they just follow the general directions they get from their coaches conventions without questioning too much about their content and reasons.
> Just an example: in Belek WC 2013, a famous Korean coach was frankly surprised to observe that my daughter's string had tourns made clock wise on it. She said me "we don't do this, we use tourns counterclockwise only... and asked "why"? I said "we use clock wise strings for right hand arches and counterclockwise strings for left hand archers, usually". She looked thinking to the matter for a while, than archers had to shoot and conversation was over.
> Of course, I have tested many times this matter in my life, without finding any practical difference between clockwise and counterclockwise strings, and I have just continued to follow the "traditional" way ... as I have learned to make strings clockwise and it comes easier to me. But, she was really surprised, that means that she did not know why, she never tested it and she never questioned herself before about it.


Possibly because they dont have left handed archers in Korea. So they never needed to try different string twist. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Possibly because they dont have left handed archers in Korea


Awfully "convenient."


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I notice in the video how the Korean women's bowhand is well within the riser grip. As opposed to so many other archers (Brady, for one) whose bowhand seems to be spilling all over the shelf above the grip.


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## fluke (Aug 12, 2012)

in my point of view the reason why we don't see many koreans in the press is because they come and go so fast. i mean i haven't heard of ki bo bae in months. the other women (roman, lorig, etc) stay under the spotlight much longer and the koreans not so much, not because of lack of talent (far from it) but because of the high level of archery in korea, the top athletes easily replaced. sometimes i don't even have time to learn the name of an archer and someone else already took his or her place


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I suspect that has something to do with hand size differences in a good number of cases.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

calbowdude said:


> I suspect that has something to do with hand size differences in a good number of cases.


Yes, good point. I think you're right. I'm so used to looking at Park Sung Hyun's pictures that I just assumed she was the norm - but I think probably she was the exception ....


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Also a possibility that I've encountered with formula bows: if you don't apply forward pressure to the shelf, the bow tends to rock back so that the bow points up (noticeable when looking at the stabilizer when shooting 18m). It's a little less comfortable to grip around the shelf a little, but the shot feels solid/less fluttery.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

fluke said:


> in my point of view the reason why we don't see many koreans in the press is because they come and go so fast. i mean i haven't heard of ki bo bae in months. the other women (roman, lorig, etc) stay under the spotlight much longer and the koreans not so much, not because of lack of talent (far from it) but because of the high level of archery in korea, the top athletes easily replaced. sometimes i don't even have time to learn the name of an archer and someone else already took his or her place


Ki Bo Bae is still on the National team. You havent heard much from her as she doesnt shoot indoors and the outdoor season hasnt started yet. 

Yun Ok Hee has been around since 2009. HyeJin Chang since 2010. HyunJung Joo as well. Most seem to last 4 to 8 years. Park shot two olympic teams. Yun Mi Jin, shot two olympics, Kim Soo Nyung shot 3 olympics. 

Chris


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## martinkartin (Aug 6, 2012)

It seems like this forward button setting was not only shot by the Korean women. Jake Kaminski gave it a shot in Vegas as well.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

martinkartin said:


> It seems like this forward button setting was not only shot by the Korean women. Jake Kaminski gave it a shot in Vegas as well.
> 
> View attachment 1885936


His clicker looks as extended as it can get. So i would see that as a tune, but the Korean ladies are not at the end of the clicker extension. 

I would not think to use the front hole for them. 

Chris


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## martinkartin (Aug 6, 2012)

^ You're right! Jake was probably shooting the thick arrows and found this setup to help tune it.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

lksseven said:


> Yes, good point. I think you're right. I'm so used to looking at Park Sung Hyun's pictures that I just assumed she was the norm - but I think probably she was the exception ....
> View attachment 1885693


Is that because her hand sits proud of the shelf normally, or because she has already loosed the arrow and the bow has jumped in her hand?


Edit: Just did a google and there seem to be pictures at draw (pre-release) both ways...

Cheers


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

bobnikon said:


> Is that because her hand sits proud of the shelf normally, or because she has already loosed the arrow and the bow has jumped in her hand?
> 
> Cheers


photos to answer your questions

View attachment 1885994


View attachment 1885995



Chris


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Thought I saw a couple pictures of her otherwise, but wrong lady and after release, so... Now I know.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

bobnikon said:


> Thought I saw a couple pictures of her otherwise, but wrong lady and after release, so... Now I know.



Zhang Juanjuan, Individual Gold Medal Bejing, Silver medal team, Silver team 2004 Athens, she shoots a much higher grip than Park. Park has a low grip, Zhang has a high grip so she tends to be under the shelf.

View attachment 1886050



Chris


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

fluke said:


> in my point of view the reason why we don't see many koreans in the press is because they come and go so fast. i mean i haven't heard of ki bo bae in months. the other women (roman, lorig, etc) stay under the spotlight much longer and the koreans not so much, not because of lack of talent (far from it) but because of the high level of archery in korea, the top athletes easily replaced. sometimes i don't even have time to learn the name of an archer and someone else already took his or her place


I agree. I understand your point Chris, that they don't happen to be at every tournament. But, it's hard to get excited about a competitor when you don't know if you're going to see them from one tournament to the next.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

yes, they do have a deep field.



Chris


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## mike hogan (Nov 22, 2007)

What kinda poundage did park sung Hyun shoot?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

mike hogan said:


> What kinda poundage did park sung Hyun shoot?


44# OTF, 550 X10 spine


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> Ki Bo Bae is still on the National team. You havent heard much from her as she doesnt shoot indoors and the outdoor season hasnt started yet.
> 
> Yun Ok Hee has been around since 2009. HyeJin Chang since 2010. HyunJung Joo as well. Most seem to last 4 to 8 years. Park shot two olympic teams. Yun Mi Jin, shot two olympics, Kim Soo Nyung shot 3 olympics.
> 
> Chris


Chris, do you know why Kim Bo Bae doesn't shoot indoors?


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> 44# OTF, 550 X10 spine
> 
> 
> Chris


Chris, do you happen to know her arrow length?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

chrstphr said:


> 44# OTF, 550 X10 spine
> 
> 
> Chris


The indoor team that does the world cup events isnt a National team, its a pro team owned by the LH Corp. The company is in building. They fund the archers to do the world cup events i think for experience and exposure. Two national team members happen to be on the LH team ( Hyejin Chang and Jeon Sung Eun). 

Thats why you dont see any of the men. I would imagine its not cost effective since if you win the World cup finals, you get $3750 US, which wouldnt cover one leg world cup travel expenses much less 3 legs which you have to shoot. 

If the prize money gets up to $20,000 like for the outdoor then you will see the Korean National team members shooting for it with men and women both. 

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

TER said:


> Chris, do you happen to know her arrow length?



yes i do. Her arrow was just shy of 26 inches from nock to end of shaft. 

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I should note she uses the Beiter out nocks which give slightly more length than the pin nock. 


Chris


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

martinkartin said:


> It seems like this forward button setting was not only shot by the Korean women. Jake Kaminski gave it a shot in Vegas as well.
> 
> View attachment 1885936


Jake has been shooting front plunger hole for a while now, not just Vegas.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> The indoor team that does the world cup events isnt a National team, its a pro team owned by the LH Corp. The company is in building. They fund the archers to do the world cup events i think for experience and exposure. Two national team members happen to be on the LH team ( Hyejin Chang and Jeon Sung Eun).
> 
> Thats why you dont see any of the men. I would imagine its not cost effective since if you win the World cup finals, you get $3750 US, which wouldnt cover one leg world cup travel expenses much less 3 legs which you have to shoot.
> 
> ...


It is not by pure coincidence that the LH team is all shooting Win & Win equipments 100% ... probably W&W shares expenses or sponsors the team to participate to the world cupo events.. In the past, W&W was sponsoring directly some male archers participating to Nimes , among them we have seen several world and Olympic champions like Oh Kyo Moon, Chung Jae Hun (2 times winner) and Hong Sun Chil in Nimes, but no more males since 2009 ... Commercially speaking for W&W it was not good to have male Koreans shooting in Nimes when they had there Romain Girouille, several other French archers and Michele already defending their products, so they changed their presence to women only, to react to berengere Shu's domination with Hoyt. This is just my personal feeling about this... 

Chris is right! From the pure costs point of view, there is no reason for a professional archer to participate to the indoor World Cup events on his personal budget, as money prize will never compensate even partially the expenses. Koreans are all pro's, so they will get in the indoor circuit only if their employer pays them to do so. Amateurs spend money to participate to tournaments, pro's are paid to do so ...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> It is not by pure coincidence that the LH team is all shooting Win & Win equipments 100% ... probably W&W shares expenses or sponsors the team to participate to the world cupo events.. In the past, W&W was sponsoring directly some male archers participating to Nimes , among them we have seen several world and Olympic champions like Oh Kyo Moon, Chung Jae Hun (2 times winner) and Hong Sun Chil in Nimes, but no more males since 2009 ... Commercially speaking for W&W it was not good to have male Koreans shooting in Nimes when they had there Romain Girouille, several other French archers and Michele already defending their products, so they changed their presence to women only, to react to berengere Shu's domination with Hoyt. This is just my personal feeling about this...
> 
> Chris is right! From the pure costs point of view, there is no reason for a professional archer to participate to the indoor World Cup events on his personal budget, as money prize will never compensate even partially the expenses. Koreans are all pro's, so they will get in the indoor circuit only if their employer pays them to do so. Amateurs spend money to participate to tournaments, pro's are paid to do so ...


I completely agree. 

I also had an assumption that WIN WIN might have some sponsor money invested in the team since they all shot WIN WIN gear across the board but i had no actual knowledge of that being true.

Chris


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

After what the daughter considered "not my best performance' I started thinking about this thread. We spent the morning setting up her bow using the forward hole at ALC in GA where she was shooting nationals over the weekend. Got some great advice concerning nodes and now have a very well tuned bow. She had been hitting gold mostly over the weekend but with quite a few nines. This morning had several groups of three bare shafts you couldn't put a credit card in between. Woohoo. Seems to be a much more forgiving setup. Nimes here we come.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Dacer said:


> Even their stab set up looks the same for all of them. I don't know how they get the bow to roll so fast with so little weight on The end.


The theory of the pendulum. All earthbound objects are subjected to 9.81m/s/s acceleration. Find the center of mass, and focus on its path. All mysteries solved.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

theminoritydude said:


> The theory of the pendulum. All earthbound objects are subjected to 9.81m/s/s acceleration. Find the center of mass, and focus on its path. All mysteries solved.


Can't +1 this enough. Always have people asking if my 9oz rotates quickly. Answer has always been "no more quickly than your 3", which is met with confusion and me being told I can't be right. Looks like it does because it's 36 inches away from me and it carries a bit of momentum is all.


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

I recently switched the plunger to the front hole to help soften my arrow spine. Could someone explain to me how you find the nodes on your arrows? I understand the theory of paralax. Just trying to get things dialed in.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Ranger 50 said:


> I recently switched the plunger to the front hole to help soften my arrow spine. Could someone explain to me how you find the nodes on your arrows? I understand the theory of paralax. Just trying to get things dialed in.


What are you planning on doing with your nodes when you've found them ..?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

julle said:


> What are you planning on doing with your nodes when you've found them ..?


If he doesn't know, I will tell him exactly how to take advantage of that knowledge. Because I'm searching for them nodes myself.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

chrstphr said:


> I noticed on all 5 of the Korean LH team for the world cup events, they all used the front hole for the plunger/ rest and had 1 inch of shaft and 1/5 inch point.
> 
> 
> All 5 ladies on the team shot for the gold medal at the 3 stages they participated in. So it is working for sure.
> ...



I don't see any thing unusual about this set up there is enough shaft between the point and the button to allow for the node point of the arrow to clear the button before it is activated.
I would suspect that using the front hole would minimise changes to the launch angle by the plunger not a bad idea for short arrows keep em nice and straight out of the bow.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Ranger 50 said:


> I recently switched the plunger to the front hole to help soften my arrow spine. Could someone explain to me how you find the nodes on your arrows? I understand the theory of paralax. Just trying to get things dialed in.


To locate the front node on an arrow... Gently hold the arrow shaft between your thumb and forefinger, around 150 mm from the nock. Gently rap the arrow on narrow padded surface like the top edge of a padded chair back. Start the rapping near the point and slowly move the contact point toward the back as you continue to rap. You will feel the arrow vibrate with each rap. There will be a strike location on the shaft where there is very little or no vibration produced in the arrow. That location will be the front node. It should be around 50 - 100 mm from the point.

To locate the front rear on an arrow... Gently hold the arrow shaft between your thumb and forefinger, around 50 mm from the point. Gently rap the arrow on your narrow padded surface. Start the rapping near the vanes and slowly move the contact point toward the front as you continue to rap. The strike contact point that produces the minimum vibration will be the rear node. It should be around 80 -180 mm from the nock. 

Note that you need to strike the arrow shaft on a padded edge in order to excite the proper frequency, which is the first harmonic. String the arrow on a hard surface may excite only the higher harmonics.

Knowing the location of the rear node is somewhat useful in the case of a shaft clearance problem. Contact at the node in usually indicative of a release problem, i.e with the rigid body mode of the arrow. Contact away from the node is usually indicative of a clearance frequency problem.


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks Mr Lieu. 

As for Julle and the Minority Dude, a complete self examination should help you with your nodes.

The reason I ask is that having the front node on the button can help with tune, so I've read.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

anmactire said:


> Can't +1 this enough. Always have people asking if my 9oz rotates quickly. Answer has always been "no more quickly than your 3", which is met with confusion and me being told I can't be right. Looks like it does because it's 36 inches away from me and it carries a bit of momentum is all.


ignores the critical question of mass damping before the loose though. who cares how quickly it rotates after the arrow has left?

also, you're wrong, because your 3oz has less leverage than an equivalent 9oz on the end of the same long rod. we're not talking about free drop here. we are talking leveraged drop as experienced at the riser.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

anmactire said:


> Can't +1 this enough. Always have people asking if my 9oz rotates quickly. Answer has always been "no more quickly than your 3", which is met with confusion and me being told I can't be right. Looks like it does because it's 36 inches away from me and it carries a bit of momentum is all.


Nearly true but not quite as a bow is a compound rather than a simple pendulum. With a simple pendulum the mass is assumed to be a "point mass" and so has no rotational inertia. A real bow, not being a point mass has rotational inertia and this inertia affects how fast the bow swings:
see Post shot bow rotation

All this stuff about nodes always puzzles me. If someone reads an old medical manual they generally chuckle about the weird stuff about humors & leeches etc. They always (unfalrly) comment on how people could ever believe these things. On the other hand when someone reads an old archery manual they believe every word . Go figure.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

Joe T said:


> Nearly true but not quite as a bow is a compound rather than a simple pendulum. With a simple pendulum the mass is assumed to be a "point mass" and so has no rotational inertia. A real bow, not being a point mass has rotational inertia and this inertia affects how fast the bow swings:
> see Post shot bow rotation
> 
> All this stuff about nodes always puzzles me. If someone reads an old medical manual they generally chuckle about the weird stuff about humors & leeches etc. They always (unfalrly) comment on how people could ever believe these things. On the other hand when someone reads an old archery manual they believe every word . Go figure.


Joe is on it, yet again. I figured that the apparent rotation was the source of the idea that it rotates faster, i.e. dΘ/dt is about the same but the length of the rod gives the impression of a faster swing. Never perceived it to be any faster with the heavier weight, but that's down to your calculated marginal difference in time to reach 90°; something that doesn't even happen with my bow as the limb hits my leg before that. Of course this gets muddied with the inclusion of backwards facing side-rods. Thank you for putting the maths to it, I don't have time as I'm working on my physics degree at the moment. Mechanics was a few years ago at this point!

As for node placement, my arrows are much longer than my draw length generally so my front node could be anywhere. I get stiffer arrows, heavy points and tune with length until bareshafts fly true. Where do manuals say it should be?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Cabin fever much?

I love how so much of the discussion regarding Korean women's archery is never focused on the single most important factor that allows them to be successful... Their mental strength.

If we spent as much time worrying over, dissecting and analyzing ways to overcome mental weaknesses as we do finding arrow nodes, we would all shoot a lot better.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

anmactire said:


> As for node placement, my arrows are much longer than my draw length generally so my front node could be anywhere. I get stiffer arrows, heavy points and tune with length until bareshafts fly true. Where do manuals say it should be?


Anywhere you like . What I meant was that nodes on (recurve bow) arrows being launched have as much existence in the real world as Father Christmas. In the world of technical archery, from Hickman to Zanevsky say, there is no mention of anyone finding nodes on arrows, no-one predicting theoretically the existence of nodes on arrows, in fact you will not find any mention of the word node *at al*l in relationship to arrows. Somebody sometime, some when invented a story about arrow nodes and the fairytale has been running ever since.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Joe T said:


> Anywhere you like . What I meant was that nodes on (recurve bow) arrows being launched have as much existence in the real world as Father Christmas. In the world of technical archery, from Hickman to Zanevsky say, there is no mention of anyone finding nodes on arrows, no-one predicting theoretically the existence of nodes on arrows, in fact you will not find any mention of the word node *at al*l in relationship to arrows. Somebody sometime, some when invented a story about arrow nodes and the fairytale has been running ever since.


FWIW, I think Rick McKinney devoted a few paragraphs to nodes in his book The Simple Art of Winning.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Cabin fever much?
> 
> I love how so much of the discussion regarding Korean women's archery is never focused on the single most important factor that allows them to be successful... Their mental strength.
> 
> If we spent as much time worrying over, dissecting and analyzing ways to overcome mental weaknesses as we do finding arrow nodes, we would all shoot a lot better.


John,

when you say "mental strength", what exactly do you mean by that? I have my own concept of it (albeit not often enough personally attained), but would like to have you school me on yours.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Joe T said:


> Anywhere you like . What I meant was that nodes on (recurve bow) arrows being launched have as much existence in the real world as Father Christmas. In the world of technical archery, from Hickman to Zanevsky say, there is no mention of anyone finding nodes on arrows, no-one predicting theoretically the existence of nodes on arrows, in fact you will not find any mention of the word node *at al*l in relationship to arrows. Somebody sometime, some when invented a story about arrow nodes and the fairytale has been running ever since.



Hate to tell you but your " Father christmas " is Real. An oscillating body like an arrow - is going to have nodes. You can clearly see in highspeed video that an arrow has nodes. These aren't always Ideal node where there is literally no movement because of real world conditions - plus you have a plunger taking some of this lateral movement out, tapered shafts with non-uniform spine along the shaft. But it will be close. 

Now - should be spend time contemplating the physics of arrow flight to be good shooters? Well I suppose if you want to be an engineer at Easton Technical Products that would certainly be a place to devote some time. However, There are much easier ways to find what works in real world condition than worring about nodes.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

I bet non of these ladies know anything about nodes, FOC or pendulum


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Dacer said:


> Hate to tell you but your " Father christmas " is Real. An oscillating body like an arrow - is going to have nodes. You can clearly see in highspeed video that an arrow has nodes. These aren't always Ideal node where there is literally no movement because of real world conditions - plus you have a plunger taking some of this lateral movement out, tapered shafts with non-uniform spine along the shaft. But it will be close.
> 
> Now - should be spend time contemplating the physics of arrow flight to be good shooters? Well I suppose if you want to be an engineer at Easton Technical Products that would certainly be a place to devote some time. However, There are much easier ways to find what works in real world condition than worring about nodes.


..and I always thought that the "man from Missouri" needed real evidence to be convinced. 
I agree that worrying about nodes is a waste of time. However archers have wasted time and money cutting arrows to adjust the (button relative) position of these non existent nodes or sticking matches in pressure buttons so imho debunking is worth doing - or archers may at least be tempted to pause for thought.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I was convinced by evidence - my engineering physics and differential equations classes. You learn about cool stuff like simple harmonic oscillation and calculating when a vibration will end when dampened. 

edit: just look up the thread. We have a professor of mechanical engineering saying yes and you saying- they don't exists. There is nothing to debate.


But aside from Curiosity tune the arrow like one would do if they were totally oblivious to these details. No reason to over think it when it would be better to just think about your shot not how the arrow is wiggling around like a wet noodle


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

We have an either/or issue here. Dennis was describing how to find the nodes for the base frequency with a simple arrow oscillation. Nobody has a problem with this. However what Dennis is describing has nothing to do with the inertial buckling of the multi g accelerating arrow on the bowstring. This like comparing and ice cream cone with a volcano. One vibrating system has nodes the other vibrating system does not have nodes. Fraid so - not all vibrating systems have nodes. Why? because nodes only exist when the mechanical criteria require they exist (bottom line is the conservation of momentum principle). e.g. hang a piece of string from your hand and waggle your hand about - a simple vibrating system and fairly obviously one that doesn't have nodes.

As for "seeing" these nodes on a video - can't be xxxed to explain why that's a non runner. this is maybe worth a look http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/photo_database/image/the_cottingley_fairies/


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

LOL Dacer if you are going to talk about people's credentials you should first find out who is Joe T. He's not an average poster.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

TER said:


> LOL Dacer if you are going to talk about people's credentials you should first find out who is Joe T. He's not an average poster.


No - you should go by what's said not who's saying it. Everybody gets stuff right and everybody gets stuff wrong. Not a problem. It's only the evidence and the logical argument that really matter.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Cabin fever much?
> 
> I love how so much of the discussion regarding Korean women's archery is never focused on the single most important factor that allows them to be successful... Their mental strength.
> 
> If we spent as much time worrying over, dissecting and analyzing ways to overcome mental weaknesses as we do finding arrow nodes, we would all shoot a lot better.


+1 mental game= more points on the score card.



Joe T said:


> ..and I always thought that the "man from Missouri" needed real evidence to be convinced.
> I agree that worrying about nodes is a waste of time. However archers have wasted time and money cutting arrows to adjust the (button relative) position of these non existent nodes or sticking matches in pressure buttons so imho debunking is worth doing - or archers may at least be tempted to pause for thought.


Node points on arrows do exist. I can observe them through high speed filming and can find and feel them on any arrow doing something similar to what DK Lieu described. It's a quick job you do it once to know where they are then you setup your equipment accordingly to make sure the front one clears the plunger before it is activated and the back one clears the riser from good form That's it. 
Team GB doesn't film the launch angle of the squad members arrows for no reason 

You should see if you can get the joint tracking software to track the node points on your arrows as the leave the bow it will make for some interesting viewing eye opening to


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Joe T said:


> We have an either/or issue here. Dennis was describing how to find the nodes for the base frequency with a simple arrow oscillation. Nobody has a problem with this. However what Dennis is describing has nothing to do with the inertial buckling of the multi g accelerating arrow on the bowstring. This like comparing and ice cream cone with a volcano. One vibrating system has nodes the other vibrating system does not have nodes. Fraid so - not all vibrating systems have nodes. Why? because nodes only exist when the mechanical criteria require they exist (bottom line is the conservation of momentum principle). e.g. hang a piece of string from your hand and waggle your hand about - a simple vibrating system and fairly obviously one that doesn't have nodes.
> 
> As for "seeing" these nodes on a video - can't be xxxed to explain why that's a non runner. this is maybe worth a look http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/photo_database/image/the_cottingley_fairies/


Yea I remember reading about those fairies way back in high school. I see what you are saying about the string but that string while a good analogy that doesn't compare well to an arrow with 100gn mass on the tip end, and a small mass on the back. 

I could see an argument were a very badly choose arrow - and the wavelength of Oscillation is longer than the arrow? So there is only one node on the arrow .I know that this isn't a standing wave, it's dampened by the arrow shaft itself and the drag from the fletching, But I see nodes when I look at high speed video. Fairies not withstanding 



TER said:


> LOL Dacer if you are going to talk about people's credentials you should first find out who is Joe T. He's not an average poster.



I'm a ChemE major - ill freely admit that mechanics are not my favorite nor best subject. No credentials. I wasnt trying to say ," I'm an authority from 13 hours of classes" but rather that is where my evidence is grounded from and why I am standing by my argument.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Ranger 50 said:


> Thanks Mr Lieu.
> 
> As for Julle and the Minority Dude, a complete self examination should help you with your nodes.
> 
> The reason I ask is that having the front node on the button can help with tune, so I've read.


I'm trying to design a method of tracing the path taken by the nodes, I have an idea how to do it, but have yet to actually try it, as it involves extensive setup that will require a couple of days and some visits to the hardware and electrical stores. I wasn't trying to recommend to anyone on how to tune using the placement of the node, but merely provide an indicator for interested parties who would like to see conclusively how the nodes are behaving during the shot, instead of second guessing themselves.

I have imagined placing the node on the button but recent developments in my experimentations into what goes on at the moment of release suggests a stage between the initial release and the flexing of the shaft that we have all left out, in the popular understanding of how an arrow exits a bow. I could not directly observe that stage, but indirectly infer its existence through a particular input that we have tested for 3 years. It resulted in a type of flight of the shaft never encountered before in recurve archery, and raised many questions regarding our understanding of the archers paradox. If proven to exist, we have to rewrite our understanding of tuning, with the introduction of a new device to "force" the arrow to behave more like the model we are used to.

I'm quite used to being called a quack, but only by archers outside of my club. By the way I just static tuned (weight distribution, nocking point, tiller) one of my members' bow using 2 lasers and some mathematical calculations. Not single shot was let loose. We are gonna see if it works in a week's time. I'm feeling rather excited. If it works, I'll share it.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> I bet non of these ladies know anything about nodes, FOC or pendulum


Why would you think that way?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Joe T has a blurb on his site talking about someone who marked the 2 node locations with different colored chalk and shooting it through paper to see how the nodes align. Though I'd think you'd need to have 2 papers setup exactly at the same distance as the nodes.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

kshet26 said:


> Joe T has a blurb on his site talking about someone who marked the 2 node locations with different colored chalk and shooting it through paper to see how the nodes align. Though I'd think you'd need to have 2 papers setup exactly at the same distance as the nodes.


No, that's not required. Assuming the bow has been tuned, the 2 nodes should travel in a common path, thereby drawing the same line throughout. I'd imagine there to be more than 2 pieces of paper, but I'm going to test a method that does not use papers.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> The theory of the pendulum. All earthbound objects are subjected to 9.81m/s/s acceleration. Find the center of mass, and focus on its path. All mysteries solved.


I'm am aware Of gravity but the speed of rotation is not analogous to two free falling masses. There is more force torquing about the Rotational axis when there is more mass on the end of the long rod. Mass * acceleration = force right? 

1 oz on the end of the long rod has less force rotating the bow around Than 5oz. 

Put it this way: if you have a balance that is even on both sides with 500 grams. You then add 0.1g and record the speed of rotation of the balance until it bottoms out on the now 500.1 gram side. Now you repeat this experiment but this time you add another 500 gram mass to one side. It bottoms out faster. 

There is a reason you use huge counter balances to shoot a catapult, for example. Rotational forces not free falling objects.


It wasn't a I really don't know post it was Figuratively. By having all the stabilizer mass centered further from the point of rotation and a really good bow hand they achieve this. Kinda like I don't know how a high jumper can leap 6' when I tried I couldn't get myself over 4.5' 

However, I get how my tone is missed over the internet.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Fairies! Caught these little fellas playing in my yard last month with a little night photography.
Interesting stuff I will agree, but prefer the mental approach as each arrow gets it's time, approach, settle, expand,click, and boom!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Dacer said:


> I'm am aware Of gravity but the speed of rotation is not analogous to two free falling masses. There is more force torquing about the Rotational axis when there is more mass on the end of the long rod. Mass * acceleration = force right?
> 
> 1 oz on the end of the long rod has less force rotating the bow around Than 5oz.
> 
> ...


I am aware of the differences between rotational forces and a free falling object. Which explains why Brady Ellison's bow with it's CG closer to his grip throat doesn't rotate as fast (if that is what you believe I was implying) but that is because of the high moment of inertia from all the weights in his system.

The explanation merely gives one the idea that there is a thing called a visual illusion; something can be see as falling really fast at it's end, but that is only due to the location of the mass centre, factoring distance from its location to explain why one doesn't need a lot of weight at the end of the stabiliser to effect a high rotation speed. In fact, high weight at the stabiliser end impedes that rotation speed, which is the whole point of having weights in bow stabilisation, to impede that rotation.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> I bet non of these ladies know anything about nodes, FOC or pendulum


+1

Spend some time around them, look at their equipment, and listen to what their coaches emphasize. It's never equipment, I can tell you.

Larry, what I mean by "mental strength" is the ability to focus on only what really matters, at the time when it matters most. Top archers do not allow themselves to waste time with unnecessary details. They have figured out that the difference between a 340 and 325 at 70M is how well the manage their focus, and prevent distractions from affecting them on any particular day.

Show me an archer who is obsessing over trivial equipment details or over specific technique issues, and I'll show you an archer I want to face in matchplay.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

kshet26 said:


> Joe T has a blurb on his site talking about someone who marked the 2 node locations with different colored chalk and shooting it through paper to see how the nodes align. Though I'd think you'd need to have 2 papers setup exactly at the same distance as the nodes.


Different topic. What were talking about here is the alignment the arrow has as it comes out of the bow and the effect on grouping. Topic discussed by both Rick McKinney & Vittorio long ago (even by me somewhere ). Sometimes suggested that the alignment check done visually & sometimes by camera (as per DWAA above). Clever & simple approach suggested (and tested) by a guy on the UK forum was to color the free-free vibration node locations (the one's Dennis described) with different colored chalks. Once you've done a bare shaft tune then you assume the arrow has zero launch angular velocity around a vertical axis. Once the arrow is off the bow string it drops into a free-free vibration mode and has the associated node points. If you shoot the arrow immediately through a single paper sheet (before the fletchings have time to rotate the arrow significantly) then any seen horizontal gap between the two chalk colors indicates the amount of and direction of a arrow alignment to the centre of mass travel direction.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> I'm trying to design a method of tracing the path taken by the nodes, I have an idea how to do it, but have yet to actually try it, as it involves extensive setup that will require a couple of days and some visits to the hardware and electrical stores. I wasn't trying to recommend to anyone on how to tune using the placement of the node, but merely provide an indicator for interested parties who would like to see conclusively how the nodes are behaving during the shot, instead of second guessing themselves.
> 
> I have imagined placing the node on the button but recent developments in my experimentations into what goes on at the moment of release suggests a stage between the initial release and the flexing of the shaft that we have all left out, in the popular understanding of how an arrow exits a bow. I could not directly observe that stage, but indirectly infer its existence through a particular input that we have tested for 3 years. It resulted in a type of flight of the shaft never encountered before in recurve archery, and raised many questions regarding our understanding of the archers paradox. If proven to exist, we have to rewrite our understanding of tuning, with the introduction of a new device to "force" the arrow to behave more like the model we are used to.
> 
> I'm quite used to being called a quack, but only by archers outside of my club. By the way I just static tuned (weight distribution, nocking point, tiller) one of my members' bow using 2 lasers and some mathematical calculations. Not single shot was let loose. We are gonna see if it works in a week's time. I'm feeling rather excited. If it works, I'll share it.


Nodes don't exist on the arrow under acceleration but of course you can experimentally test this hypothesis. It's not that easy to do.

a) If they exist - up front you have no idea where the node (only one would be feasible) is located. (All this I can see them on a video or feel them is pure gibberish).
b) Getting a high quality video is certainly feasible (but is going to cost)
c) A real headache is going to be acquiring the arrow element time/position data from the video. Feasible but laborious.
d) The big hurdle is going to be number crunching the acquired data to compensate for the accelerating frames of reference and then having reduced the video frames to a reference frame stationary wrt the COM have some sort of search algorithm to find any nodes if they exist.

Or you could take the simple Canals on Mars approach .

PS as you point out the current vibrating beam arrow models don't handle the initial load tranfser/buckling behaviour at all well. But the math to handle this behaviour using actual physics doesn't exist at present.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I like knowing that Joe T is around, shedding light on our path!


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