# Xcutter vs series 22 wind drift?



## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

For the ones that have used both, what is your opinion on wind drift between the two arrows? I'm looking to get some target shafts to play with this 3D season but the wind drift concerns me. 

Is it about the same between the two shafts? 

My specs are 27.5" dl, 60#. 

What length of CTC do you recommend? Point weight? 

Would like to keep them as close to 300gr total as possible. I would like to run a 90g+ tip at least. 

I will shoot uni bushings with g nocks.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Also the bow is an elite energy 32.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I shoot x-cutters 27in with GT hd pin nocks, 90gr points and 2in rayser feathers total weight 325grs. They have been flying great, really like these arrows.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

At my specs would a 27"ctc xcutter with the 90gr tips shoot well?

I use 3 mini blazer vanes or vane tech super spines. 

Id like to keep them between 300-350gr total.


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## HappyHillbilly (Apr 18, 2013)

Let me say first off that I don't have any experience with the x-cutters, only the Ultralight Series 22 Pro. My experience with the Series 22 appears to be inline with "573mms" arrow setup. Mainly the choice of fletching. Feathers. 

After being out of the game for 16 years I recently got back into it. I shoot 3D - mainly ASA. When considering arrows for my setup I did look into the fatter shafts and wanted to go with them, but decided on the 22s because they're just a tiny fraction smaller in diameter & hopefully less likely to be effected by wind. Especially since, like you, I wanted to keep total arrow weight low. The x-cutters are .380 OD & the 22s are .337. I considered the difference to be diddly-squat as far as line-cutting advantage but significant for wind effect.

First; my stats, and then my results with wind & fletching changes.

Here's my stats:
Mathews Conquest 4
29" draw length
57 lbs draw weight
Ultralight Series 22 Pro arrows
Arrow length (_end to end of shaft, only_) = 27.5"
80-grain nibb
Nock: series 22 nock (_no bushing_).
Fletching: 3 - 3" parabolic feathers
Total arrow weight: 308 grains
FPS: 278
FOC: 9.88%

I initially had Blazers on these arrows. While sighting-in my bow in a sporadic 10mph crosswind, from 10 - 40yds everything seemed OK. Actually, my groups at 40yds weren't desirable but I blew it off as lack of shooting the last 16yrs. I stepped out to 60yds and the arrows were flying insanely wild. With the Blazers my FOC was just below 8%. 

I fletched 3 arrows with the 3" parabolic feathers, with the same amount of offset (_5 - 6 degrees_) and my groups from 40 - 60yds tightened a lot. And this is under the same sporadic 10mph crosswind situation. I imagine I'd get the same results with the x-cutters - judging from what "573mms" said. I'm thrilled with the performance of these 22s, with feathers. As far as recommendations - I'd suggest adding a bit more overall weight to the arrow and that will give you more fletching options as well as less wind & trajectory effect. Speed is nice, but comes at a cost.

I've got the feeling that I'm going to end up adding 20grains or so to the front and maybe even have to change fletching once that's done. Fortunately, with GT's FACT System, I can easily add weight without having to buy more arrows.

I was bored last night & couldn't sleep so I took the time to use GT's calculators to look at your options & desires. Here's what I came up with:

Ultralight X cutter pro - w/mini blazers or super spine vanes (4 grains each) & 90 grain nibb
arrow weight is: 334.6 grains
arrow FOC is: 8.52%

ultralight series 22 pro - w/mini blazers or super spine vanes (4 grains each) & 80 grain nibb
arrow weight is: 302.1 grains
arrow FOC is: 9.24%

Ultralight X cutter pro - w/3-inch parabolic feathers
arrow weight is: 328.6 grains
arrow FOC is: 9.21%

ultralight series 22 pro - w/3-inch parabolic feathers
arrow weight is: 296.1 grains
rrow FOC is: 10.01%


Hope this helps!
Have a great day!
HH


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

for shooitng in the wind, mass weight is more important than diameter. Contact Tim at GT. He will confirm it.


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## Wazz13 (Oct 4, 2009)

J Whittington said:


> for shooitng in the wind, mass weight is more important than diameter. Contact Tim at GT. He will confirm it.


X2

Give those guys a call, they have put every possible combination of shaft/vane/point/nock together. They will have an answer for you, backed up with some solid testing.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks guys. Good info! 

I think I'll keep them closer to 350gr. Is it better to have a heavier tip? So maybe 120gr? Or is the lighter tip better? 

I'm leaning more towards the series 22.


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## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

in general and in most 3D situation, I dont think wind drift is an issue to be concerned with on the shaft dia differences. I would think that if you can get the fatter shaft to fly good, the increased ability to cut lines would superceed any wind drift concerns. Now in open field shooting the smaller diameter shaft would be the way to go, but were not talking open field are we?


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

We shoot in trees usually. Thickness varies. The wind never seems to be blocked. We get the occasional open field shot.


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## blucky (Feb 25, 2007)

I shoot both, but they are setup totally different. I have 22 series setup for ASA speed limit and the x-cutters are setup for 5gr/lb. With that being said the x-cutters weigh 350gr, 325 fps at 70#. The 22's weigh 423gr, 296 fps at 70#. X-cutters do not drift bad, but I can tell the difference between them and my 22's in the same conditions. The mass weight makes a big difference. Also with more mass weight and narrower tips you can reduce the amount of glance outs. It also reduces the amount that the arrow glances. Instead of being a 5 or 8, your chances of staying in the 10 greatly increases. X-cutters might gain you a few extra points because of there dia.,but if the wind is blowing you are probably going to break even at best. If you can get your mass weight up and be happy with your speed, then I would not hesitate trying the x-cutters. I prefer the 22's for an all around arrow. My theory is, if I am just "out", then I should have made a better shot to start with. My .02.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks. I think keeping theses weight up is going to be the better answer. 

I have a 27.5" dl so speed really cant be achieved. Lol im leaning toward the series 22 and keeping them around the 350gr mark. 

I'm currently shooting the 55/75 pro hunters. They fly great. I've thought that maybe the fatter shaft could gain me a few more points, but if I'm out then i should have made a better shot or judged the yardage better.


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

i shoot 22s for 3d. Drift on the 3d courses is minimal. Where I notice the difference is shooting fita 40 50 60m there you need the mass with smaller diameter like the 5575 pro hunters.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd really go for the 22's in your scenario. 

I've run X-cutters and Triple X's...and 22's. All over 400 grains. When it gets windy, the 22's shine. I can only imagine this would be even more true with an arrow as light as yours will be.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Sounds like the 22's it is.


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## HappyHillbilly (Apr 18, 2013)

blucky said:


> …… My theory is, if I am just "out", then I should have made a better shot to start with.





b2sandshee said:


> ...... I've thought that maybe the fatter shaft could gain me a few more points, but if I'm out then i should have made a better shot or judged the yardage better.


Yep! I’m in the right thread. My thoughts, exactly. That’s what I said when I made the decision between the two.

Great posts from you fellas that have shot both of these shafts. I’m still in the fact-finding/tinkering mode with these as I just fletched my 22s with feathers last Friday. It’s comforting to know that I’m on the right track after being out of the game for so long.

Best wishes to you all!
HH


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## blucky (Feb 25, 2007)

HappyHillbilly said:


> Yep! I’m in the right thread. My thoughts, exactly. That’s what I said when I made the decision between the two.
> 
> Great posts from you fellas that have shot both of these shafts. I’m still in the fact-finding/tinkering mode with these as I just fletched my 22s with feathers last Friday. It’s comforting to know that I’m on the right track after being out of the game for so long.
> 
> ...


Here's my thought on feathers. I shot them about 19 years ago when first getting into 3d, loved them, but! Pros: lighter weight, looked cool, shot great, less worry about contact. Cons: watch out when they get wet(can use feather dry, it helps), not as durable(don't hold up well when group shooting), cost more, and creates more drag at longer distances(which if your just shooting 3d its not that big of a deal). The main reason I switched to vanes was due to the feathers getting wet. When your in competition you need to have confidence in your equipment that it will perform no matter what the conditions. Some vane choices I have use are: Mini-blazers, 3D duravanes, and X2 vanes. These three vanes are lower profile for better clearance. My .02.


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## HappyHillbilly (Apr 18, 2013)

Thank you, "*blucky*," for your input. It's much appreciated.
16yrs ago I shot feathers on XX75s, with an Oneida Aeroforce X80. I've always preferred feathers, but I only shot local 3D shoots & don't recall any rainy day shooting. Using feathers now is a big concern for me as I have dreams of at least attempting bigger ASA shoots and your _"When your in competition you need to have confidence in your equipment that it will perform no matter what the conditions,"_ is spot on with me. 

That's why I said earlier that I've got a feeling I'm going to end up adding 20grains or so to the front and maybe even have to change fletching. Fortunately there's a local shop with a good tech/shooter that has the FACT System weights & wrench so I can go there & tinker to find a good amount of weight to add in order to choose a good vane and maintain a good FOC. Your post just prodded me to not put it off & try to get it done this week. I appreciate the vane tips! I gleaned a few recommendations from another GT 22 thread here about a week or two ago. Clearance isn't an issue unless the torque monster visits me while shooting, then it's close.

I probably shouldn't post this but I'm an honest fella: In a senior moment, without any thought of FOC effect, I fletched three 22s with 3" x-vanes, which weigh more than the blazers & dropped my FOC down to around 6%. Do I need to tell you how they flew? Ha! Ha! INSANELY wild. I didn't check the FOC until after I shot 'em and saw how erratic they flew. I just shook my head and said to myself, _"That was REALLY smart!"_ :awkward: Ha! Ha!

Catch ya later!
HH


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Here is what I decided to try out first. Going with the series 22.

27" CTC
Easton g nock
Shrewd g uni bushing
3- mini blazers
Threaded insert
100gr tips

That should out me right at 350gr which is what I'd like to stay under. Gives me about 12.5% foc I believe.


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## HappyHillbilly (Apr 18, 2013)

Personally, I think the threaded inserts & 100-grain tips is a good choice, as well as the unibushing & g nock for added weight on the backend for a better balance. My wife & son shoot a larger diameter shaft with the unibushing & g nock and I love the nocks. They've saved a few of their arrows from robinhoods.

As for the fletching - With your arrows being about 50 grains heavier than mine you'll probably be just fine with those vanes. "*blucky*" suggests them and he's got experience with them & the shafts. I keep thinking about wind effect and I can't figure out a happy medium between a higher fletch height & a lower height but more length. I'm probably tryin' to split frog hairs and don't need to.

Have a good one! And, thanks for starting a great thread!
HH


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## blucky (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't think the fletching height will make much difference in 3d, the taller vanes will actually stabilize the arrow faster. The exception is a strong cross wind at 40 or 50 yards, where the taller vanes will catch more air, thus the need for a greater FOC, to keep the arrow pointed in the right direction. I was using the low profile because the bow I was shooting at the time needed more clearance. As for the screw in tips, they will work fine. Just need to put wax or Teflon tape on the threads to keep them from vibrating loose. Once you get your arrow formula figured out you can make the next batch with glue in points and adjustable weights. Makes a cleaner looking arrow without having to tighten tips all the time. Looks like your on the right track and good luck.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

I do shoot the hunter class, so i think technically i have to shoot screw in tip. I dont know if I've ever heard of that being enforced locally, but i think asa requires screw in tips for hunter class. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

It may not be inforced locally but, I don't no how good of a shot you are. If you are a guy that's going to be winning you don't want to give people you are beating anything to gripe about because they will. If you are not winning nothing will be said.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

I win some but about every shoot i usually place up in the top and make the shoot offs quite often. So I'm thinking its better to play by the rules instead of trying to work around them.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

b2sandshee said:


> I win some but about every shoot i usually place up in the top and make the shoot offs quite often. So I'm thinking its better to play by the rules instead of trying to work around them.


There is no screw in point requirement for hunter class in ASA.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Ok. Has there ever been? I swore i was told that they had to be screw in tips.


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## HappyHillbilly (Apr 18, 2013)

b2sandshee said:


> Ok. Has there ever been? I swore i was told that they had to be screw in tips.


I'm quite sure I've read that before, too. I believe it was in the Unlimited Hunter class. In fact, the North Georgia 3D Circuit (ASA) has it listed as one of their rules. You can view it here: http://www.gainesvillearcheryclub.com/rules--classes/


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

There used to be a rule...maybe there still is in IBO...don't know. There is not in ASA. Heck ASA even let's you use magnification in hunter class.


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks, I thought I've heard it before.


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## HappyHillbilly (Apr 18, 2013)

Yeah, must be an old rule for an old class. I've scoured ASA'a website & the ASA documents I've got on my PC and can't find the rule or the "Unlimited Hunter" class in the 2014 documents. What I found interesting was that in the link I provided above, the rule was only applied to the "Unlimited Hunter" class, not within "Senior Hunter, Hunter or Women's Hunter classes. My wife shoots Women's Hunter class and that's the only way I knew about that rule - makin' sure my wife was playin' fair & takin' every advantage possible.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Pincher said:


> in general and in most 3D situation, I dont think wind drift is an issue to be concerned with on the shaft dia differences. I would think that if you can get the fatter shaft to fly good, the increased ability to cut lines would superceed any wind drift concerns. Now in open field shooting the smaller diameter shaft would be the way to go, but were not talking open field are we?


I lived in NM for a few years, I've aimed at a targets nose and been tickled with an 8. Just hitting the animal in 40mph gusts can be a challenge.


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