# Covert Hunter Questions...



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Can't help but notice that quite a few have been overwhelmingly and absolutely smitten with their Borders Covert Hunter Recurve and yep...I for sure think it a bad butt bow and was going to order one prior to putting together my Morrison XD/Sky TR7 rig but took pause at the price point of the CH...but still?...it haunts me each time I read where others have been so taken by their new CH....and while I'm extremely pleased with what I have?...I'm revisiting the CH with some questions here...so here goes...

Why?...I mean outside of the HEX7 hooks on steroids and the astounding lines and beauty of the CH what makes it so good?...is it way faster?....smoother?....quieter?....has anyone chrono'ed one or compared it to other top performers?.....what is it that makes the CH worth nearly twice as much as some other superb performing bows?

This is not a bash thing so please don't make it out to be but I'm just curious as to the valuations here...I mean we're quite literally talking the cost of (2) Brand New Bear Custom Kodiak TD's here and well within the price point of a *Blacktail Elite WITH an extra set of limbs* or?...a Blacktail T2 Special Edition of this caliber...










So tell me and sell me folks...I like what I'm reading about the CH and everyone seems thrilled with them but I would need to know they are more than just big hook bows and to date?...I've not seen any chrono comparo's or?...anyone proclaiming any elevated performance regarding accuracy...matter fact?...the only two good things I've heard thus far (besides the stellar looks and craftsmenship) is the CH keeps a tight "Tip-Too-Tip" working envelope (hence it's moniker Covert Hunter) and some claims of a soft feeling back end...tell me there's more. 

T.I.A. Bill. :cool2:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I believe JParanee did chrono numbers. Basically for a bow shooting +9gpp arrows nothing else can touch it. It wasn't designed for speed though, it was designed for stored energy and maintaining a good speed with heavy arrows.

-Grant


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I wish you were left handed. I would make you an offer today, sight unseen.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Grant is correct in his usual fashion  

I can only speak for me 

So here it goes 

I do not want this to come off in any way other than I am speaking from the heart and what I as a hunter have evolved to in looking for a hunting bow 

I have a wall full of bows 

I am so very fortunate 

I have Silvertips with checkered grips to the best in ILF rigs 

I love them all and each bow has it's special place for me, especially bows that have harvested for me 

if two years someone would have said to me that I would be shooting a bolt down takedown as my primary hunting bow I would of said no way. I'm quite pleased with my ILF setups 

I had gone from one piece bows as a kid to bolt down takedowns than back to fine one piece bows than to ILF 

ILF gave me so many more true custom options than a custom bow the likes of most out there 

What this means is that with an ILF you can really tweak the bow to a more custom fit than most customs of today 

Most fine customs of today are using a limb design that is 20 years old 

So I was and still am an ILF fan and I recommend that format for most archers 

Than comes the CH 

It's a radical departure from the conventional recurve

Yes pound for pound it is quicker than any other bow I own 

But that's not the reason I like my CH so much 

My fastest ILF rigs are only marginally slower so let's just cast out the speed thing right away 

As Grant eluded to it was designed to spit out a heavy hunting arrow and it does so with authority 

So it allows me to drop weight and still get the same performance that I was getting with my heavier conventional bows 

Dropping weight and getting the same performance is a plus in anyone's book  

So I will list the reasons why the CH for me is my bow of choice by such a large margin 

At my stage of the game my deer hunting is a passion 

It torments me  

It fuels me and it drives me 

So I am always looking for the perfect hunting bow for me 

The CH is a 60 inch bow with the working envelope of a 55 inch bow that uses a string that is long enough to work on a 62 inch bow 

Crazy right ? 

Even though it has a very short working envelope it exibits no finger pinch what so ever 

I do believe that it's compact working envelope does aid in a lot of hunting situations 

From a blind 

From a tree 

Kneeling 

especially if you prefer a straight up and down shooting position 

Now let's talk about feel 

First draw feel 

The sensation that the CH gives you in the draw is unlike any other bow 

The bow picks weight up earlier and than gains weight so slowly it gives an illusion of a perceived let off 

No there in no let off but the perceived feeling helps me settle into my anchor 

Coming from the curse of growing up snap shooting this feel is something that really helps me get into my anchor pause for a second or more and than loose the string 

The next sensation is like a vacuum releasing as the limbs uncoil and propel the arrow down range in a most satisfying whisper 

The bow has a dull thud and almost pneumatic or hydraulic feel 

So feel is a very important factor to me 

Just like I prefer the feel of a fine graphite fishing rod over a Fiberglas buggy whip 

Now let's talk about the other kind of feel 

The same feel that you get when you pick up a fine best grade double 

something lures you in 

the quality of the fit and finish 

the balance and character of a finely made object 

Some very fine firearms have it 

Some bows like Blacktails and Silvertips have it 

Some owners derive enjoyment out of such objects 

I do 

For me the structural layup and finish of this riser is pure art 

Old world craftsmanship mixed with modern technology 



Mixed with a limb that feels and performs like nothing else out there 



Look at the working envelope of the CH 



The clearance 



For me at my stage of the game 

It makes for a very compelling bow 

It gives me the performance and feel that I am looking for

It is not for everyone 

What is ? 

I get many emails a week about the CH 

Most are from seasoned hunters and archers that are looking for something different 

Some are bow collectors that just want to add a CH to the collection which is awesome 

Others are lifelong hunters looking for their ultimate dream hunting bow 

It's not a better bow than a Blacktail or a Top of the Line ILF setup it's just different 

It is hard to argue the logic that went into this bow 

A small working envelope that was designed to exibit none of the bad habits of short bows and designed to throw hunting weight arrows at a very healthy rate. 

Add to this fine craftsmanship and a radical new design........... like I said its quite compelling  

So much so that I have 2 complete CH's and an extra set of limbs 

That's alot of money in CH's 

But I am so tickled with this bow for me it's money well spent 

I hope this helps answer your question






PS

If you want to know if it's faster pound for pound than what you are shooting now 

I don't know 

But I could guess 

I too have not seen one bad review on this bow and there are many out there now


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

J Paranee...that's as good an explanation of why you like that bow as anyone is likely to give! Thanks for your informative post.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jinks.... I see where your coming from.

lets see if i can show you where we are coming from.

i dont know of a trad bow that doesnt use Glass from one of the usual sources in trad bow making.
so the Laminate technology is devided by the number of laminates sold.
that technology has been around for years... 10's of years. so the costs are covered... IMO.

there has never been a trad bow that can deliver 0.5lbs of draw weight increase from 28" to 29". for a 50lbs bows
so this glass tech cannot deliver this. (some one WOULD have done it by now if it could)

so to develope something that is not confined by the rules of UD glass you have to start thinking outside the box.
this requires alot of thought. and alot of R&D.
and all this cost is covered by 3000 bows. not 10's of thousands of bows.
We have had to learn our own composits handling. our own composits needs, then apply this to a bow.

when you use the same as everyone else. you can take several assumptions that everyone else takes.
when you make something new. you need to do alot of testing.

Lets start with some basics.

you can nip down your club. trace 10 different limbs. take an average.
you can measure 10 different riser angles and deflex values and take an average. 
and there you go. you have a recurve.
are you a bowyer?

or you can take a design. spend years making it pritty, and improove your wood working skills till you have the prittiest bow...
again...
are you a bowyer

or you can take the basic fundamentals of bow design, take new materials that have not been used or pioneered before and make a bow out of them.
you can take the concepts to an extreme with in the relms of accepted current design and blow them out the water... and still have a bow anyone can handle. 

take each problem and solve it.


thats kinda where we have been over the years.

hopefully this shows you where your money goes.

it goes to making a very VERY unique bow. and not just another bow with near on equal characterists to the other bows out there.


i appreciate this sounds egotistocal, i also am aware that the passage of time is not included in this.

(howard hill took on the challanges of new materials, and so did Fred Bear and Earl Hoyt, so at the time these greats in archery history pioneered the costs of the R&D of glass fiber and Bow geometry costs)

Can it be said that Archery R&D has been freewheeling for too long and a new breakthrough is needed..

free wheeling doesnt require energy. it doesnt cost money
slogging uphill with something new is not freewheeling.

Groves and other such bowyers have tried to change the rules, but were limited in the materials availabe to them.

or it could be said that the pressures to meet pricepoints wrecks the spark of innovation.

wallmart prices do not fund pioneering research.

Now. I keep looking at Mountain bikes.
3000 dollars for a frame.
frames are now switching to bladder moulded monochoque carbon structures. and many companies are going this route...
the financies allow the companies to develope competely new manufacturing techneques to make a better "mousetrap"
if the price was limited to 300 dollars, and the price of tubes is 250 dollars. then there comes a time where the machinery cant be upgraded.

now, ask your favourite bowyer how many bows they make in a year and how many hours a week they spend making them.
that will tell you roughly how many hours they spend with there hands on a bow. then look at the pricetag. then consider the overheads.

only china can sustain 200 dollar limbs.
and thats coming to an end as they also require a standard of living. 



as i said. i can see your point. 
if the bow stacked. had an inline riser. and was made out of some random oak, and had a average stored energy, then id be patting your back.

but the dozens of prototypes. and dozens of tweeks that all get bandsawed as they are investigations into single aspects of the design. are all parts of the process you dont get to see.

how may itterations of the same limb are there in the ILF world... facelift models dont require complete redesigns and de-bugging...

so the specs are 
5/16" past centre window.
delfex in a wooden riser that exceeds that of a DAS.
complicated limb pockets for craftsmenship.
leading edge carbon re-enforced risers to allow exotic timbers to take massive deflex and past centre windows.
Vanners with contrasting backing vaneers as detailing.
hand crafted riser where ALL faces are curved for tactile feel.
leading edge thinking in limb design
leading edge laminates
ease of stringing 

all this comes into a bow package that delivers unheard of stored energy levels. unheard of levels of smoothness. and a bow that will change the way you think of tuning.
the conventional wisdom is 1.25 cycles in paradox. we are looking closer to 1 cycle.
this impacts on how you adjust false/weak shaft reactions.
it also impacts on tollerance to spine. tollerance to a flubbed loose.


this isnt available in a glass limbed bow.


yes it is just a single string bow.
yes its not going to make your life change, or highlight the winning lottery numbers.
yes some will say its not radical.

but look at Blackys data on bowreports. 0.87-0.95 stored energy per pound is the range of trad bows. so 1.1 is radical.
2-3lbs per inch at 28" for a 50lbs bow is normal. so 0.5 is radical.

and our R&D hasnt stopped....
the recurve bow still has ALOT of gas in the tank!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

find me a DFC anywhere close tothis in the trad world...

and combine that with a limb mass that can challenge the best of the best out there at being light...


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Sid, that was an excellent summation of the economics involved with paths, choices, and price points.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Cutting edge costs big $. I'm a big fan of trickle down technology - often times the stuff that tickles down are the better ideas and more proven designs anyway (the boring stuff). It takes all kinds, I like seeing companies like Borders pushing the limits of technology, without them there would be no trickle down. It is also awesome that there are folks that can afford the goods to keep the cycle going.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Besides, price points are set by the consumer level, not the manufacturer.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

In my opinion, I think Border deserves a lot of credit and attention for their innovation, research, and development. I've never seen a Covert Hunter in person, but have read so many good things from people who come from a similar bow background as me that I absolutely believe they are the top performing bows available today. Beautiful too, JP's bow is just one example of the craftsmanship I've seen from Border.

And that's said as I sit here with a couple Blacktail "Snakebits" on the wall, and next to them several other top shelf customs from Schafer, Rose Oak, Dale Dye...

- Am I going to order a new Covert Hunter? No, not until I can try one for a while.

- Will I buy one if it pops up on the classifieds? Possibly, if it is a weight/wood combination I like.

- Would I like it better than what I have? Well, that's the fun of trying different bows. I'm not willing to buy one for full price sight unseen, but I'd say that about any bow. Cutting edge performance or not, I have found that I won't know if I will like it until I have had it for a while.



One thing I will say is that just because the limb technology used by bowyers other than Border has been around for quite a while does not mean it's obsolete. Constant improvement is an admirable thing, but in my opinion it's also pretty poor form to belittle the artisans making the premier customs and portraying them as something less than accomplished bowyers because they didn't go out and develop a new limb design. It would be nice to see Border focus on the positive aspects of their design without pissing on everybody else.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Besides, price points are set by the consumer level, not the manufacturer.


yes... 110% agree.

there are materials of great interest to us that are out with the reach of the covert hunter price. there are simply not enough customers out there willing to pay the price that justifies these materials.
the covert hunter is our flagship, but it uses a lot of expesnive Materials as it is that even the BD cant reach... which is no slouch, it takes a lot out of our company to kick start new bows. 

if you guys don't want it... no one will make it.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jinks, to say what everybody else has said more completely, or more succintly than I can, I'll do it again from my own perspective.

Does it have a high performance/dollar ratio? Nope.

Does it have high value? Depends on who's buying it, and why. 

You can probably get bows that can shoot as fast or faster, if you don't mind using a lighter arrow and losing the kinetic energy output. If another bow has enough kinetic energy and a holding weight your comfortable with an arrow speed you like, there is no performance issue to address. In fact, if it were only a performance issue, you can always shoot a compound bow, with or without fingers, with or without sights, and get more stored energy, and more speed. What the Covert Hunter does, for me, in this regard, is allow me to shoot a relatively light holding weight, with a moderate draw length, with enough energy to use as a hunting bow, but low enough holding weight to serve well during target shooting, practice, etc., regardless of whether my shoulders or back are sore from some previous activity.

Aesthetically, the riser is nice (and given the cost of the riser itself, actually priced fairly reasonably), but you can get lots of risers with nice customized selections of wood, even with very intricate engraving. However, with a Border riser (any of them, so far as I know), you can get...


The sight window cut exactly the way you want it, in terms of height, degree of cut past center up to 5/16 (which is really handy if you want to use a plunger, which I do), and also in terms of shape.
The grip shaped the way you want it, not just a selection of different grip styles. It does have a thickness/thinness limitation, compared to metal ILF risers..
Insert bushings for stabilizers, bow quivers, sights, plungers, etc., where you want them, or not, so long as it's not going through the carbon spine.


It doesn't shoot more accurately for me than my Predator


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Easykeeper said:


> In my opinion, I think Border deserves a lot of credit and attention for their innovation, research, and development. I've never seen a Covert Hunter in person, but have read so many good things from people who come from a similar bow background as me that I absolutely believe they are the top performing bows available today. Beautiful too, JP's bow is just one example of the craftsmanship I've seen from Border.
> 
> And that's said as I sit here with a couple Blacktail "Snakebits" on the wall, and next to them several other top shelf customs from Schafer, Rose Oak, Dale Dye...
> 
> ...


Easy 

I don't think anyone is belittling any other fine custom makers out there 

Border puts so much into their limb development they would be cheating themselves if they did not point out the effort they are making to develop their limbs and how it departs from the norm 

I know that with your fine taste in bows that you would enjoy the CH and even thou I could not bare the thought of sending it out to you I will always say to you that you are always welcome to come for an extended visit stay in my home and shoot it till your hearts is content  

I welcome you my friend


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

To follow up (I had to do laundry)...

The draw is exceptionally smooth. The value of this in itself is largely subjective, and in large part, you can get used to a lot of variation, and after awhile, if you don't try anything else, whatever you're using, so long as it's close to suitable, will fell 'right'. To be fair, a lot of people will downright not like how smooth and even it is. If you get used to a more linear (as in zero to draw weight line as opposed to a curve that picks up quickly than levels off), it will feel downright weird. 

An advantage of the smooth draw, though, is that ergonomically, it is actually easier to pull, because of biomechanics, as you get to full draw, which in my experience, encourages me to take my time at full draw. If you want to work on your shot, as far as process, I find this helpful. However, some like the feel of a little more stack in the back, kind of a means to let them know they're there, maybe even like having a clicker. With Hex 7 limbs, there is no feeling of a wall. Even with shorts on a 25" riser, I'm running near the top of the suggested draw range at 28.5", and I don't notice any loss of that smooth character. I like this, though a shooter who is highly practiced and well trained may find no benefit to this.

Another advantage, is that, because of the flatness of the curve near full draw, and the significantly more energy put into the draw at the beginning, a change in draw length, due to creeping, lack of expansion, or just a funky shooting position, results in less tuning variation (less holding weight change), and less change in velocity, as a function of draw length variations. It's not the same as having a stop on a compound bow, but I've noticed that when playing with a chronograph, it is much easier to get consistent numbers, and when I flub, the arrow speed changes less than my conventional recurves. I value this. Somebody who shoots with a consistent draw length all the time, or has a clicker to activate, will find little value in it.

So, I would say, yes, it is expensive. It cannot objectively be said that it is ten times better than a Samick Sage. It cannot be objectively said that it is the best bow in X/Y/Z I can say that it offers tangible, objective differences that have value to me that the difference in cost is something I'm happy to pay.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Barney...some points you made:
- Ability to shoot heavier arrows (without loss of trajectory?) 
- Enough energy to use as a hunting bow (what weight?) yet have a lighter hold, but low enough holding weight to serve well during target shooting, practice, etc., regardless of whether my shoulders or back are sore from some previous activity. (this is a real benefit to me!) what do you mean? 

Could you expand a little more on these please? 

I've been saving up for a Robinson Arms XCR-M, but after watching JPs videos, reading up on the bowyer's site, including Pete Ward's excellent review, I have to say, I might instead spring for a bow instead! 

I have to echo Easykeeper's sentiments though...hard to drop that kind of hard-earned cash on something I have not even held in my hands before, let alone shot a few times. I'm not complaining about the price...something that has had so much put into it will doubtless command a premium price. I just wish I knew someone nearby who'd let my try their Covet Hunter!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Zu!.
We give everone 28 days to send the bow that they have ordered back to us in a like new condition for a refund of everything except postage.
we would appreciate the chance to try and address the reasons your sending it back. But we do accept that the bow might not be what you expected.

We had a french guy in the workshop about 6months back. When he first pulled it. He didnt quite get to anchor before letting down. his coments were "i think its broken" i did say "it will feel like it breaks everytime you pull it. Try again" to which on his 3rd pull he started to smile.
it does feel different.
different can be a make or break for some people. Same as there are longbow fans and recurve fans.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Easy
> 
> I don't think anyone is belittling any other fine custom makers out there
> 
> ...


Thanks JP! Someday I hope to make it out to one of the big eastern shoots, sure would be fun to meet you. And yes, I would definitely love to try your Covert Hunter although I fear that some experience with one might turn out to be expensive...:wink:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

zu! said:


> Barney...some points you made:
> - Ability to shoot heavier arrows (without loss of trajectory?)


Yes, that's what I meant to say. Of course you can always shoot heavier arrows with pretty much any bow.



> - Enough energy to use as a hunting bow (what weight?) yet have a lighter hold, but low enough holding weight to serve well during target shooting, practice, etc., regardless of whether my shoulders or back are sore from some previous activity. (this is a real benefit to me!) what do you mean?


So, the Covert Hunter I have is 46# at my draw length. My Predator Velocity is 54# at my draw length, has the same brace height, and arrows about the same weight (432 gn vs. 418 gn). They both clock in on a chronograph about 200 fps, plus or minus depending on me. The 54# predator, with me shooting it, has _slightly_ more KE, but not appreciably. The predator setup, when I bought it, also costs about half as much as my highly optioned out Covert Hunter.

I've taken my 54# predator to competitive shoots. It used to be my _light_ bow, and had become my go to turn key solution. If I'm having a good day, I can hang with the big kids without embarrassing myself. It shoots every bit as well as I can shoot it. I've ghetto'd it out a lot for optimizing my user preferences, and it looks like hell, as well as a Decepticon laden with duct tape, but aside from it being prone to arm slap with the arrow setup that tunes best for it, functionally, not a darn thing wrong with it. If I am fresh, a few days out from the last strength conditioning exercises, heavy wrestling, or extended uphill mountain bicycling trip, and get good sleep, (and am in practice) I can shoot it pretty well for a couple of days straight without noticeable fatigue, and it drives tacks more than it has any business doing, considering that it was designed as a hunting-suited 'speed' bow. I have gripes with some aspects of the design, but nothing that couldn't be addressed with a Epoxy, some coins, JB weld, a dremel tool, nuts, bolts, washers, and a purple eraser.

While the Covert Hunter takes about as much energy to draw, in my estimation only, I haven't plotted a draw force curve, the 8# less of holding weight, particularly when shooting carefully, either in competition or practice, lets me go longer, whatever my condition. I always shoot better when rested, but if the holding weight is less, the impact of any given amount of fatigue is less, fatigue sets in more slowly, fliers resulting from errors related to fatigue (usually on the bow arm side) tend to fly closer to center, it's easier to take my time (mentally) with the shot sequence, maintain a consistent rhythm, yada yada...

Of course, you could also point out that a 46# standard recurve, even a low tech cheapie like the sage, with plenty good tuning, sharp broadhead, and shot placement, is plenty for most anything most of us will ever do. Can't argue that. Then again, Border can also sell you a 38# Covert Hunter that, assuming the game laws allow, will do everything most of us will ever do hunting as well...



> I've been saving up for a Robinson Arms XCR-M, but after watching JPs videos, reading up on the bowyer's site, including Pete Ward's excellent review, I have to say, I might instead spring for a bow instead!


I have mixed feelings on this. Since Border gives you 28 days to try it and return it, I guess there's no downside to trying one out. I think they're great. At the same time, I feel that I should support those who've tried them and found them not to be what they wanted. The draw definitely feels different than a standard recurve, as in an entirely different animal. Some people will find it almost like a constant draw weight compound. Some people feel like it 'lets off' even. When I first got mine, I loved the feel, and had already been able to play with the draw, as Ben Rogers let me have a tug on his Hex6's (close enough), so this wasn't a surprise. But I have to admit, it took me a little while, maybe a week or so, to ingrain the feel of the draw into my shot cycle. The lack of stack can throw you if you've gotten used to pulling against a 'soft wall' of sorts as part of your trigger.

So, I guess what I'm saying, I'd certainly recommend finding out if it's something you might fall in love with. I did. I just wouldn't guarantee it to anybody, but I can't imagine saying that about anything.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Zu, had additional thought. I wouldn't say that I would discourage anyone from buying one, particularly when you can return it for a refund if it isn't what you want. To me, though, it is the kind of thing I go for only after I know close enough to exactly what I want out of it. Grip, weight, sight window. It has way more to choose from than just woods. If you're paying that much for a custom bow, take the time and effort to make sure it is exactly what you want. Love the grip on a particular bow? Send it to them to replicate. Like the sight window on another, or would do it differently? Make them do that. Border is easy to work with, and will even swap or modify things if you don't like the way it turned out. Just saying, by all means, exploit that to the fullest. It is part of what you're paying for.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Barney, thanks for your views. I'll definitely take them into account. Real life experience, like yours, is pretty much the best endorsement of any product. I was thinking of a 45 lb bow that can fling heavy arrows. I like that thought. 

As you probably know, I'm pretty much a neophyte in archery. It wasn't too long ago, that I was asking for advice on how to set up my Browning for simple things like a rest, nock height and such. At the time, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread! Then I acquired a Bear Tamerlane, and wow, such a nice grip that had. And then I tried a friend's Bear Super Kodiak...cripes that felt so good in my hand! 

I'm pretty sure I will be finding out more about this fine sport as I go along. I probably need a little more experience, but I'm liking the idea of this bow already. Being able to make it fit my hand is probably the best icing on the cake I could ask for (next to being able to fling heavy arrows)


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Without a doubt the top of the line bows are very impressive either in style and or performance, question is does the average archer have enough skill to exploit the advantages. From a personal perspective as much as I love to look at these bows I know that they won't be the magic pill I would love for them to be. Bravo to the bowyers that push the envelope. But I'll stick with my chevy, I don't see myself driving any faster than what I can now.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Wow...I'm real happy I risked asking this and super happy no one took any offense of me asking and I thank you all...especially Joe, Sid, EK and Barney....you guys rock! :thumbs_up

And now down to the crux of the matter...I'm torn...on one hand?...I absolutely love my new Morrison XD/Sky TR7 rig...it's super solid and stable and the draw of the limbs climbs so freaking smooth it's breath taking to me and this rig is a tack driving beast especially with my VAP's but I'll be honest here....with the loss of my widow and herters?...I'm missing me some pretty wood...I'm also haunted by the postings of some of the best here raving about their Covert Hunters and this is also part of the reason why I posted the "Type Of Bow" poll yesterday as?...

Many of you know I've gone through many bows over the past several years...some tease me about this with "looking for the magic bow" sorts of commentary but it doesn't bother me at all as I wouldn't have it any other way as by handling and shooting all those different bows?...that's the sort of experience I needed to learn what offers which and what it is any particular bow has to offer that suits me best and my Morrison/Sky rig is sort of a "Party Mix" of all those things but still?...the Covert Hunter haunts me...I'd love to have one and am trying to justify such by seeking out it's primary attributes besides just another pretty face with big curves and a price tag to match. :laugh:

And now thanks to the responses in this thread?....I know it is more than just that...and since I do still have my job?.....and they are forcing me to work all this high paid O/T?....my Morrison/Sky rig might need a pretty date hanging beside it...but I'd really like a phenolic one...with a center of coco and white accent stripes...dunno if I could talk the Sids into that....I guess I'll see how much I save....and then?...maybe? 

Thanks again all, Bill. :cool2:


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

How quiet are they?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

one additional comment. benefit of the hex 7 and similar higher stored energy bows...

I got some hex7 short limbs, 35# (on a 25" riser), originally for my wife, who had talked at times about wanting to shoot more competively long distance. her usual recurve, a martin X-200, with arrows as light as it can handle, has a point on of 30 yards. when she shoots at targets 70 yards away, she can hit them, but she's holding the point something like 18-20 feet above the point of impact. at 100 yards, she can land an arrow, but it is one heck of a rainbow.

anyway, after they were ordered, before they arrived, she made it clear that she really, really didn't want anybody buying her more guns or bows. actually got a little upset mixed in with the happy when she opened a Savage Model 11 for christmas (also purchased before notification). do not fret, friends, for she decided after shooting it that she really likes it, and is very forgiving. Plus, I get a chance to feel out options for very fairly low weight practice limbs. somebody was very kind to let me borrow a riser, and I am slowly figuring out the setup for the purpose of possible string walking...

so I get the string made, fit, and give it a tug. short limbs at a 28.5" draw, can't feel any stack. cool. take a few test shots, which confirm that I need to tune the thing, and it shoots rockets. I haven't bothered to chronograph it, but I can say that I would have no reservation using those 35# limbs to take a deer. regardless of whether I can make string walking workable for me, they're a blast, and it will be quite a luxury to play with a form practice bow that has the same feel as a covert hunter, in terms of draw cycle, would certainly make a great bow for 900 rounds where you're shooting lots of arrows at a time, all of that.

Even better. After assuring her that I promise that I still won't buy her another bow, I ask her if she wants to try drawing it. She does. Feels her way through the quick load at the beginning, gets to anchor, and just sits there at full anchor for awhile, lets down, and goes "Hmm..."

She turns around and says, "If I buy myself a left-handed riser, can I borrow these?" 

Had to smile. I said, "Of course. Read the inscription on the top limb."

She does so, reads the first line of the book for which she is agent- fishing, looks up, and says, "Some day I might have to accept these," wearing a huge smile.

I said, " good. Some day I might give them to you."


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Beendare said:


> How quiet are they?


I would say, if you take appropriate, minimal measures, little velcro on the limb for string slap avoidance, minimal silencer material for string harmonics, and limb savers to damp the post shot hum into a dead thud, pretty quiet. In the context of arrows leaving a traditional bow at about 200 fps, pretty freaking quiet.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Beendare said:


> How quiet are they?


As quiet as any of my quietest bows  

There is a ton of video out there of these bows being shot 

Go to the 13:30 mark and you can hear mine on a cold clear day with an over sized shotgun Mic on it


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Daniels video has some shooting also


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

After seeing Joes revues and just how gorgeous this bow is I've been emailing with Sid and will be ordering one real soon.just gotta figure out colors and add ons as there are many to choose from.I love many of the custom bowyers bows In states but this bow intrigues me.even though I really just got into traditional archery ,every day I fall more in love with it..I'm always looking for a special rig that'll just give me that feeling..lol have accumulated a nice collection past couple months and thiink a CH will be icing on the cake..


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

All I can say is that I have a fairly large bow collection and since I got my CH's they are all gathering dust  

For me it was the end of a the road in my search for that special bow 

Keep is posted


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

Will do..just going over some details with Sid..being a custom bow guy myself its super nice to talk it over and build a bow just like you want it..


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Breathn said:


> Will do..just going over some details with Sid..being a custom bow guy myself its super nice to talk it over and build a bow just like you want it..


I have really built a friendship with the SIDS 

They are just good guys that have a passion for Archery that is only matched by their genius for design 

The CH is just a different kind of animal 

As for custom bowyers .... They stand at the top IMHO 

They combine old world craftsmanship with modern materials and designs ....... I dig that


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I like the degree that they will customize it. The options, and specificity available for those options, is wonderful, particularly if you actually know what you want.

I can get over the Shedua. If I ever can't, I've got Sharpie markers, or duct tape 

I like that if you aren't happy with how it turns out, they'll make you another.

I like that they try stuff to see what happens, just to know.

I like watching my wife grin when she looks at the limbs I promised not to give her, and feels out the draw from time to time, holding a right-handed riser left-handed, because I promised not to buy her a riser too.

It's just so lovely, all of it


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## XnavyHMCS (Apr 25, 2013)

Covert Hunter = NEED !!!

F*** there goes my budget!!! Oh well, I do have my 50th birthday just around the corner, so...


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

Got mine in Wed. about noon....if left Scotland on Mon...bout 2-1/2 days.

The bow is immaculate, not a flaw on it anywhere.

I haven't really done anything with it but put a flipper rest, a quiver, a string and a makeshift sling on and shoot a few times...have adjusted brace height down to a hair under 6- 3/4". Figure new string will stretch to 6-1/2"..if not in a couple days I'll drop it to that and start from there.

But, if I had to describe it with one word I'd say it's a Shooter. Although one word just doesn't do it justice. It's by far the fastest recurve I've ever shot and I've got one that's known for it's speed. I haven't backed up past about 30 steps yet so don't know how flat it shoots. Even with me changing the way I see the target..with smaller sight window the arrows just zip into the kill zone with very little actual effort on my part as far as aiming, form, etc.

It's 47# @ 28" (I draw about 29-1/4"
and don't know the gain per inch with the Hex 7's), 62" lg., 17" riser, Heritage Walnut Center Indian Rosewood outers with a few red lams and dark everything including the buffalo horn...matt finish.

It's shooting my MFX Classic 400's really good.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

Placing my order today..that is beautiful my friend.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hoyt said:


> Got mine in Wed. about noon....if left Scotland on Mon...bout 2-1/2 days.
> 
> The bow is immaculate, not a flaw on it anywhere.
> 
> ...


That is a beauty my friend and it's nice to see another happy CH shooter  

How do you like the forward mounted quiver that I suggested ? 

I hope you are pleased 

I settled on a brace height of 6 7/8 but as you know we are all different and I am curious what you come up with 

Congrats again and keep us posted


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## ncsturkey (Oct 18, 2004)

Have any chronograph results been published? I would like to see the Hex 7s shot at 28" with a 10 gpp arrow out of a Hooter Shooter with a mechanical release. If this has been reported please advise where the results are posted. Thanks


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ncsturkey said:


> Have any chronograph results been published? I would like to see the Hex 7s shot at 28" with a 10 gpp arrow out of a Hooter Shooter with a mechanical release. If this has been reported please advise where the results are posted. Thanks


I do not know of anyone that has shot one from a shooting machine yet 

Most of the reports that I have seen have been done with fingers


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Do they make a version of this with a longer riser / larger sight window?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Center 

Yes they do 

I think up to 25


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

Yep from 17-25in..


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

Thanks Breathn and Joe for the compliments.

Joe..I like the forward mount quiver. I got the lefty like you suggested a couple wks ago and put it on my PTF Black Widow..it's got a forward type riser also and I shot better than I ever have with that bow. Probably gives a stabilizer type effect with top limb going forward on follow through.

I'm going to try and tune it as close to 6-1/2" as possible with my 575 grs 400's hunting arrows.

Will let you know what I end up with.

I'm very pleased with the bow and Border's Archery, great people, great product.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

XnavyHMCS said:


> Covert Hunter = NEED !!!
> 
> F*** there goes my budget!!! Oh well, I do have my 50th birthday just around the corner, so...


You deserve it! 

I would encourage you to take full advantage of their customizing options. Get the full list from Sid. If there is something that isn't listed (like a particularly sized and shaped sight window), ask! They can't do everything you might think of, but they're willing to do a whole lot.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

The Covert Hunter is on my Wish List for a Lottery win...
Like Joe, I think the ILF bows are great, but if I had the chance to buy a CH with Hex 6 or 7 carbon limbs, I would be sorely tempted to raid the savings account.
In the mean time, I am still trying to buy a set of used Hex 6 S limbs for my ILF. The guy ran into a family emergency but I hope he is still able to follow through and sell me his extra limbs. I really like my Carbon Extremes, but you can't beat Sid's draw force for the last few inches. 
I find that better limbs are an addiction. You are OK with what you have until you shoot something better, and unfortunately, more expensive.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

Once I get mine I'll do some testing on shooting machine and post numbers


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