# Shooting Order for Multi Faced Fans



## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Top picture I would have shot wrong. Goes against outside shoot top inside shoot bottom. I understand the bad angle that produces but them we should the bunny faces for the 15 yarder.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

My understanding of the bottom photo (four faces in a quad) is that the shooter who are otherwise on the bottom shoot the two bottom faces. The top shooters shoot top. That's how it was explained to us at the sectionals last year. Is there something in the Constitution and Bylaws that spells this out?


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

EPLC said:


> A lot of people get confused with fans and what target to shoot. Who can blame them?
> 
> I was shown this method last year and it makes more sense than any I've seen. Each archer simply shoots one arrow into each spot as determined by the station, 1, 2, 3 or 4. This method reduces arrow damage because all arrows for each spot are shot from either the same or a reduced angle. In the examples below: Each archer would have 2 arrows in each face of the double faced fan and 1 arrow in each face of the four faced fan.


The bottom picture is wrong. The two "first shooters" should shoot the bottom two targets. Arrows from the left two pegs in the left target, from the right two pegs in the right target. The other two shooters would shoot the top target, also two left and two right. If you put your four arrows in four different faces you are WRONG.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

wa-prez said:


> The bottom picture is wrong. The two "first shooters" should shoot the bottom two targets. Arrows from the left two pegs in the left target, from the right two pegs in the right target. The other two shooters would shoot the top target, also two left and two right. If you put your four arrows in four different faces you are WRONG.


What happens if you are shooting 4 shooters at the same time?


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Even if you are shooting 4 abreast because the lane is wide enough or you want to make up some time, you should have decided when shooting the first target who the "first shooters" are and who the "second shooters" are. 

First two shooters always shoot the bottom two targets when four 35cm faces are presented.

And when changing to the other 14-target unit (going from #14 to #15, and from #28 to #1) the order of shooting changes. Those who shot first now shoot second, and the one who was on the right now shoots from the left.

Here in the west, the occasion where four shooters can shoot at the same time is VERY rare.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

wa-prez said:


> Even if you are shooting 4 abreast because the lane is wide enough or you want to make up some time, you should have decided when shooting the first target who the "first shooters" are and who the "second shooters" are.
> 
> First two shooters always shoot the bottom two targets when four 35cm faces are presented.
> 
> ...


Thank you

Was taught wrong then I guess. Maybe the 4 across shooting and the 2 and 2 causes some confusion.

With 3 shooters how does that go? First 14 2 shoot first second 14 single person shoots first?


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Also then the first picture the "first shooters" would put all 4 in the bottom correct?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

wa-prez said:


> The bottom picture is wrong. The two "first shooters" should shoot the bottom two targets. Arrows from the left two pegs in the left target, from the right two pegs in the right target. The other two shooters would shoot the top target, also two left and two right. If you put your four arrows in four different faces you are WRONG.


There is no "wrong" if the group decides to shoot in this order. By every shooter shooting one arrow into each face the result is all arrows are shot from the same angle, thus less arrow carnage.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Until you get in a group where one says shoot it according to the rules. Then what do you do?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> Until you get in a group where one says shoot it according to the rules. Then what do you do?


What would they do on "The Walking Dead"? Or... you would most likely have to shoot by the book. 

Outdoor Shooting Rules:
1. Archers shoot in groups of not less than 3 or more than 6; 4 to be the preferred number. No
group of less than 3 shall turn in an official score.
2. By mutual agreement the foursome shall decide which two shall shoot from which side of
the shooting stake.
2.1 On targets 1 and 15 the archers shall change their order of shooting. Those who
shot first shall shoot last and those who shot last shall shoot first. Those archers
who had been shooting from the right side shall shoot from the left side and those
who had been shooting from the left side shall shoot from the right side. If you shot
bottom targets you will switch to the top and if you shot top you will switch to the
bottom.
2.2 The archer must straddle an imaginary shooting line, which is marked by the
distance stake and parallel to the target face, while shooting the required arrows.
No archer may advance to the target until all arrows have been shot by the group,
except for yardages that are 32 yards or less and when there are more than four
archers in a group on 35 cm. targets or smaller. Archers may elect to shoot at a
clean target after all previous shooters in the group have shot and had their arrows
scored.
3. When shooting at butts with multiple target faces, the first 2 shooters will shoot the bottom
target faces. When target faces are placed side by side (i.e. 50 cm.) the archer on the left
will shoot the left target face; the archer on the right will shoot the right target face. On fan
positions the same applies, except each archer will shoot two arrows at each target. Any
arrow striking the wrong target shall be considered a miss and may not be re-shot.
3.1 20 cm. Targets will be shot vertically. The shooter may elect to shoot top to bottom
in order or bottom to top in order.
3.2 20 cm. Targets. Each archer must choose one column of four target faces on his or
her side of the shooting stakes. An archer must not shoot at a column that has
already been shot by another archer.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

So why not do it by the book all the time?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> So why not do it by the book all the time?


The method I posted is suggestive only for those that would like to save some arrows. Fans can be hard on arrows, especially the ones with two vertical spots.

And, the rules could be clearer. I was taught that the outside positions shoot the top targets and the inside positions shoot bottom. The actual rule is not clear on this at all and leaves you to choose. Bunnies are also left to choose. The rule should be more specific and shooting lane specific. Currently it is not.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Also, the rule is written with the assumption that the group is shooting two at a time and doesn't account for four shooting simultaneously. It also assumes one shooting stake with archers to the left or right. It should be stated which target, top or bottom, should be shot based on inside or outside positions. The rule needs to be fixed to remove all subjectivity. This rule is poorly written, does not take several things into account, making it difficult to actually play "by the book"


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

EPLC said:


> Also, the rule is written with the assumption that the group is shooting two at a time and doesn't account for four shooting simultaneously. It also assumes one shooting stake with archers to the left or right. It should be stated which target, top or bottom, should be shot based on inside or outside positions. The rule needs to be fixed to remove all subjectivity. This rule is poorly written, does not take several things into account, making it difficult to actually play "by the book"


Remove subjectivity... but shoot as you illustrated above if a group wants to save arrows..regardless of what the rule actually is. Go to nationals, shoot it like that, and see how your score comes out. I don't think that an official there will say no problem, go ahead and score it so you can save arrows. Ive been to quite a few of the nationals, and honestly have never seen a situation that "made it difficult to play by the book"


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

Paul...like we talked about on Saturday...this should be cut and dry and well defined in the rules...otherwise you get different answers from different people.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

wa-prez said:


> Even if you are shooting 4 abreast because the lane is wide enough or you want to make up some time, you should have decided when shooting the first target who the "first shooters" are and who the "second shooters" are.
> 
> First two shooters always shoot the bottom two targets when four 35cm faces are presented.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_upTrue this. A few of the ranges in the Mid-Atlantic have lanes that can be shot 4 abreast. All of us, amateur, Pro, shooting a club shoot, a sectionals or nationals shoot multi-faced targets the same. It really is not that obscure in the rule book and there really is not much of a worry amongst the groups shooting of "saving" arrows. That is part of the fun of field archery--killing your buddy's arrows if they are in the way in the dot--the closer to the center the better..... :wink: 

It would be best to shoot the targets by the book and don't risk senselessly losing points when at a larger tournament.

BTW, no one should be setting up a 2-target bale vertically like your #1 example for a fan shot and most shooters I know would correct it to the proper horizontal positioning before shooting it.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

The order of shooting is supposed to be decided by the target group before the first target of the first unit is shot by that group. It doesn't matter whether the group is shooting alternately, or all at the same time. If shooting four abreast it's a simple matter to decided who shall shoot left or right;bottom ("1st") or top ("2nd"). Then, at the beginning of the second unit for said group, the positions are reversed. The rules still apply and reflect this in 2.1. It's a rare course where 4 can shoot abreast for every target, though I assume they exist. Even still, the rules cover this, perhaps one needs to take the time to read them more carefully.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Besides shooting position, why should anything else have to be decided? We are discussing fans and I assume all fans can be shot four abreast. When shooting 4 shooters there should be no subjectivity on what target you shoot. On bunny targets there should not have to be a decision as to what target line to shoot.

And btw here in the north east it is common to shoot 4 and I've been to Mechanicsburg twice and its 4 abreast for most targets.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

montigre said:


> :thumbs_upTrue this. A few of the ranges in the Mid-Atlantic have lanes that can be shot 4 abreast. All of us, amateur, Pro, shooting a club shoot, a sectionals or nationals shoot multi-faced targets the same. It really is not that obscure in the rule book and there really is not much of a worry amongst the groups shooting of "saving" arrows. That is part of the fun of field archery--killing your buddy's arrows if they are in the way in the dot--the closer to the center the better..... :wink:
> 
> It would be best to shoot the targets by the book and don't risk senselessly losing points when at a larger tournament.
> 
> BTW, no one should be setting up a 2-target bale vertically like your #1 example for a fan shot and most shooters I know would correct it to the proper horizontal positioning before shooting it.


From what I gather I always shot by the rules and like montigre I can't remember shooting stacked targets except the Bunny Round, 35,30,25 and 20 feet. We shot bottom to top the first 14 and top to bottom the second 14. Now that close arrows get "chewed" on good.

Arrow damage, just a hazard of the game. Worst case I ever had was where I took 2 dozen arrows and had to rob one out of commission arrow of a nock to finish with 4 arrows. Yes, had 24 arrows to start and finished with 4 good arrows over a two day's time....


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

The 35/36 fan targets may be placed one above the other in accordance with the rules, but the rules do not specify how to shoot them like that---other than one arrow per stake and two arrows at each target. That's a hole in the rules that needs to be plugged, although you truly don't usually see one above the other 35 fans. Following the last pic will make you lose 10 points in the groups I have shot in.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> The 35/36 fan targets may be placed one above the other in accordance with the rules, but the rules do not specify how to shoot them like that---other than one arrow per stake and two arrows at each target. That's a hole in the rules that needs to be plugged, although you truly don't usually see one above the other 35 fans. Following the last pic will make you lose 10 points in the groups I have shot in.


Actually they do. Shooters designated as "First" shoot the bottom target and the "Second" shooters shoot the top. I believe the 2 arrows in each target refer to the 2 horizontal faces. Fans placed vertically are especially bad on arrows. The farther the spread of the fan the worst it gets (see fine example below). This was a casualty of a 35 yard fan with 2 vertical faces.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

But there is a simple fix to all of this. Simply designate the "first" shooters as the "inside" shooters and the "second" shooters as the "outside" shooters. At the half they swap. All other rules remain basically unchanged. For the 20cm targets you would shoot the vertical column that matches your shooting assignment. With the exception of deciding who shoots "First", this simple fix should remove all subjectivity and the correct targets could be shot without any guesswork.

And it would take care of nonsense like this: "3.2 20 cm. Targets. Each archer must choose one column of four target faces on his or
her side of the shooting stakes. An archer must not shoot at a column that has
already been shot by another archer."


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> BTW, no one should be setting up a 2-target bale vertically like your #1 example for a fan shot and most shooters I know would correct it to the proper horizontal positioning before shooting it.


While you are right on this, I've seen it many times. Last years sectional was where I broke that arrow on a vertical 35 yard fan. That said, are there not also rules pertaining to altering the course?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> That said, are there not also rules pertaining to altering the course?


Yes, but it is very easy to get a range official to let them know when something has been set incorrectly and the change can be made by the group. Had to be done at a Sectionals where the wrong size target was hung and at another where we were changing from hunter to animal faces as the shoot progressed and the group ahead forgot and did not make the change... 

My question is this, and I do not mean this in a negative way, but why do you feel the need to change the game around? It's fun, challenging, and will test the snot out of you just as it is.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> And it would take care of nonsense like this: "3.2 20 cm. Targets. Each archer must choose one column of four target faces on his or
> her side of the shooting stakes. An archer must not shoot at a column that has already been shot by another archer."


In groups I have shot the bunny with, the first shooters on line determine between themselves which of the 4 columns they are going to shoot (generally maintaining the same "halves" they have been shooting for the round [right or left]. The second two shooters just shoot the remaining columns based on which half they had previously been shooting. There is no nonsense so long as you don't try to turn a mole hill into a mountain by over thinking the thing.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

montigre said:


> BTW, no one should be setting up a 2-target bale vertically like your #1 example for a fan shot and most shooters I know would correct it to the* proper *horizontal positioning before shooting it.


Why is that? Is there something in the rules or course layout guidelines? Our course had the 35 fan set up vertically and never heard a peep about it. Just curious.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Not changing the game, just want to remove some confusion and subjectivity with regard to target order. You can't have "well, let's make it up as we go" and then penalize someone for shooting the wrong target. My suggestion doesn't change anything as we've been doing it that way forever.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

hdracer said:


> Why is that? Is there something in the rules or course layout guidelines? Our course had the 35 fan set up vertically and never heard a peep about it. Just curious.


No, nothing in the guidelines. Vertical targets for the fans are technically allowed in the rules: "50 cm. target faces: Two target faces shall be used for the 35-yard fan (Field rounds) and 36-yard fan (Hunter rounds). The target butt shall be constructed to hold the targets either side-by side or one above the other."

I believe most places place the targets horizontally to minimize the affects of shadowing on the lower targets as a courtesy for the shooters--it has just become habit in my neck of the woods. My use of the term "proper" was misplaced.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't know if anyone else ever noticed this, and this is where the confusion may originate from. I think there may be some confusion between the rules as stated in the current Constitution and By-Laws, and the NFAA's current Archery Range Guidelines. Two different documents promulgated by the NFAA and available for viewing on their website.

The two documents do, in fact conflict when it comes to setting multiple 50 cm. targets. The Guidelines suggest that when using a minimum of two (2) 50CM targets, they be placed side-by-side. As Montigre so ably points out above, the rules for multiple targets in the Constitution and By-Laws do not specify this arrangement. 

I think it's also important to point out, that most of the shooting rules and target placements as stated in the Constitution and By-Laws only apply to those NFAA sanctioned tournaments at the National and Sectional level, although one would hope for consitency sake, the states and clubs would adhere as close as possible.

So now, in anticipation of the next question; which document to follow? I would have to assume that those rules codified in the Constitution and By-Laws would take precedence.

Having said all this, I really think this is tempest in a teapot.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

The preferred arrangement for the 50 cm faces, where two are used (and 2 are MANDATORY at Sectional and National for the 35 yard / 36 yard fan) is that they be side by side.

There are some ranges with bales that are not wide enough to place the faces side by side, but are tall enough to accommodate two vertically.

I wrote an Agenda Item one year that required side by side, but it didn't get passed, or maybe got amended.

When I've encountered two side by side on a 35 yard or 36 yard fan, my group makes an agreement like this "We'll shoot the bottom one from the left two stakes, and the top one from the right two stakes".


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> In groups I have shot the bunny with, the first shooters on line determine between themselves which of the 4 columns they are going to shoot (generally maintaining the same "halves" they have been shooting for the round [right or left]. The second two shooters just shoot the remaining columns based on which half they had previously been shooting. There is no nonsense so long as you don't try to turn a mole hill into a mountain by over thinking the thing.


I have a big problem with first shooters subjectively deciding which column of targets they will shoot. It should be specific which target everyone should shoot on all targets unless the group agrees otherwise. Discretionary target assignments combined with punishment for not shooting the "right" target have no place in any responsible rule set. Once again, if first shooters were designated as inside and second shooters were designated as outside shooters this all goes away. And your buddies that are moving targets around based on their understanding of the rules are plain wrong. Not only are they altering the course, they are also creating a competitive advantage over those that preceded them. Why is this such an issue with me? See below.

This is worth telling again... 2012 Nationals: I'm shooting in a group of 3 and I'm first shooter on the left side. The other two shooters are shooting to the right side on all targets. At my insistence we agreed on our positions before we started shooting on target 1. At the 1st half bunny target no discussion takes place that I'm aware of. I assume that my correct column of spots is middle left since this was my agreed to station and the other two guys had been shooting right side to this point. As I'm at full draw starting my execution, an arrow goes in my spot. Big argument ensues in which the NFAA Director claims I was about to shoot the wrong target because they decided to shoot it that way. Then this "Director" continued being a pain with his comments for the next few targets... until I got in his face. This would have all been avoided with a designation of inside and outside shooters. Like I said we've been doing that for longer than I've been shooting field archery.

Also, choosing target assignments can be a competitive advantage on some targets due to footing, angle, etc.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

pokynojoe said:


> I don't know if anyone else ever noticed this, and this is where the confusion may originate from. I think there may be some confusion between the rules as stated in the current Constitution and By-Laws, and the NFAA's current Archery Range Guidelines. Two different documents promulgated by the NFAA and available for viewing on their website.
> 
> The two documents do, in fact conflict when it comes to setting multiple 50 cm. targets. The Guidelines suggest that when using a minimum of two (2) 50CM targets, they be placed side-by-side. As Montigre so ably points out above, the rules for multiple targets in the Constitution and By-Laws do not specify this arrangement.
> 
> ...


This is correct. 

Just a couple of days ago I was reviewing the range guidelines because there is a new Field Range in my area that is going to need to be approved soon. What I noticed is that the Archery Range Guidelines still had the old system of scoring the animal round. The Constitution and Bylaws has the new system. Obviously some attention needs to be paid to the Archery Range Guidelines as well as to some of the rules. 

:cheers:


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

EPLC said:


> 2012 Nationals: I'm shooting in a group of 3 and I'm first shooter on the left side. The other two shooters are shooting to the right side on all targets. At my insistence we agreed on our positions before we started shooting on target 1. At the 1st half bunny target no discussion takes place that I'm aware of. I assume that my correct column of spots is middle left since this was my agreed to station and the other two guys had been shooting right side to this point. As I'm at full draw starting my execution, an arrow goes in my spot. Big argument ensues in which the NFAA Director claims I was about to shoot the wrong target because they decided to shoot it that way. Then this "Director" continued being a pain with his comments for the next few targets... until I got in his face. This would have all been avoided with a designation of inside and outside shooters. Like I said we've been doing that for longer than I've been shooting field archery.


If you shot on the left side on the other bunny (first half) you should be shooting on one of the columns on the right side on the second bunny.

"Inside" and "Outside" shooters only makes sense on the few courses that consistently have enough room to allow four shooters to shoot abreast.

If you select "First" and "Second" and "Left" and "Right" before shooting the first target, AND if you switch assignments for the second UNIT as called for in the NFAA rules, any advantage of terrain would be randomized.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

wa-prez said:


> The preferred arrangement for the 50 cm faces, where two are used (and 2 are MANDATORY at Sectional and National for the 35 yard / 36 yard fan) is that they be side by side.
> 
> There are some ranges with bales that are not wide enough to place the faces side by side, but are tall enough to accommodate two vertically.
> 
> ...


That agenda item could/should have been amended to say how to shoot the "one over the other" target set up for 35/36 fans. Given the history of the rule, intent to reduce kiss outs, arrow damage and shot crossing angles, and the plain and simple "two arrows at each target" language, the vertical target setup should be shot just as you have been doing it. Some are interpreting the "first shooter" language as overruling all the other things, and requiring each first shooter to shoot all four arrows at the lower target, which does nothing to reduce shot crossing angles and resulting damage, and also does nothing to reduce shadowing since the second shooters are plopping them in the top target at the same time. There is no logical reason to shoot the vertical target arrangement any different than side by side targets. We just need language to say which target the first two stakes shoot, and which target the 3rd and 4th stakes shoot. Either that or groups can keep guessing at it.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

With regard to the "fans." A more productive solution might be to just do away with them all together. The intent of the fan has been lost by placing shooting pegs only 24-36" apart. Might as well do away with them.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

wa-prez said:


> When I've encountered two side by side on a 35 yard or 36 yard fan, my group makes an agreement like this "We'll shoot the bottom one from the left two stakes, and the top one from the right two stakes".


Now that confused me. "Two side by side"??


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

wa-prez said:


> When I've encountered two side by side on a 35 yard or 36 yard fan, my group makes an agreement like this "We'll shoot the bottom one from the left two stakes, and the top one from the right two stakes".


I'm sure you meant two vertical faces... this is actually very funny &#55357;&#56842; as this was exactly my original suggestion when encountering this situation. My suggestion for the 35 cm four spot faces makes sense as well for any group that wants to "agree".


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

wa-prez said:


> If you shot on the left side on the other bunny (first half) you should be shooting on one of the columns on the right side on the second bunny.
> 
> "Inside" and "Outside" shooters only makes sense on the few courses that consistently have enough room to allow four shooters to shoot abreast.
> 
> If you select "First" and "Second" and "Left" and "Right" before shooting the first target, AND if you switch assignments for the second UNIT as called for in the NFAA rules, any advantage of terrain would be randomized.


1. I was referring to the first half bunny as this was where the problem occurred. 
2. You assume most courses shoot two and two. This is very narrow minded as there are many 4 station field courses east of you. Literally every course I shoot has 4 shootable stations on most lanes. 
3. The rule has the selection process performed at the bunny target. Once again you seem to be in agreement with my suggestions.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

montigre said:


> No, nothing in the guidelines. Vertical targets for the fans are technically allowed in the rules: "50 cm. target faces: Two target faces shall be used for the 35-yard fan (Field rounds) and 36-yard fan (Hunter rounds). The target butt shall be constructed to hold the targets either side-by side or one above the other."
> 
> I believe most places place the targets horizontally to minimize the affects of shadowing on the lower targets as a courtesy for the shooters--it has just become habit in my neck of the woods. My use of the term "proper" was misplaced.


Thanks. Ours were vertical due to the "pillow" effect of some of our target bales which got somewhat worse as the bags aged. When the target stands were built and bags installed some would not fit with the long side placed horizontally. Placing the 50's side by side resulted in rounding of the outside each target so they were stacked them vertically.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

First target, group decides who shoots first. First up shoots bottom and/or inside target faces. Second up shoots top and/or outside targets. Swap at targets 1 and 15. Why is that really so difficult to understand? If its a fan, and the targets are vertical, then you shoot all 4 at just the top or just the bottom. Busted arrows? Well just part of it. Or you can aim to the side of the spots some.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

wa-prez said:


> The preferred arrangement for the 50 cm faces, where two are used (and 2 are MANDATORY at Sectional and National for the 35 yard / 36 yard fan) is that they be side by side.
> 
> There are some ranges with bales that are not wide enough to place the faces side by side, but are tall enough to accommodate two vertically.
> 
> ...


As another responder pointed out, the above should have said "When I've encountered two arranged vertically, one above the other..."

And in response to another, yes it would have been nice if the person who amended the Agenda Item to include "one above the other" would have specifically addressed how to shoot in that case. The specific issue we were trying to address at the time was to require at least two faces on the 35 yard / 36 yard fans, at Sectional and National shoots, as some sites had posted just one. And at the same time, to AUTHORIZE use to two faces for other cases where the 50cm faces are used, particularly the 40 yard and the 45 yard w/u, because archers nowadays are really stacking their arrows in the spot at those distances.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

hdracer said:


> Thanks. Ours were vertical due to the "pillow" effect of some of our target bales which got somewhat worse as the bags aged. When the target stands were built and bags installed some would not fit with the long side placed horizontally. Placing the 50's side by side resulted in rounding of the outside each target so they were stacked them vertically.


Ah, that makes sense. Not much else could have been done (economically) when dealing with aging, bulging bales.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> First target, group decides who shoots first. First up shoots bottom and/or inside target faces. Second up shoots top and/or outside targets. Swap at targets 1 and 15. Why is that really so difficult to understand? If its a fan, and the targets are vertical, then you shoot all 4 at just the top or just the bottom. Busted arrows? Well just part of it. Or you can aim to the side of the spots some.


Again... It's the inside/outside part that is omitted in the rules.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Little off topic but since this is a rules thread I'll ask here.

Field shoot yesterday on hunter round 54 yd walk up. I shot two arrows from the first stake. I then skipped the next stake and then shot the last 2. We scored the highest scoring arrow (an X) as a zero.

Was this correct to skip the stake? If not I would have had another point deduction for 5 arrows shot.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

erdman41 said:


> Little off topic but since this is a rules thread I'll ask here.
> Field shoot yesterday on hunter round 54 yd walk up. I shot two arrows from the first stake. I then skipped the next stake and then shot the last 2. We scored the highest scoring arrow (an X) as a zero.
> Was this correct to skip the stake? If not I would have had another point deduction for 5 arrows shot.


Couple of problems here. According to the rules, the correct yardage should have been for a 53yd walk up with 4 arrows shot; 1 arrow each at the following distances: 53yds, 48yds, 44yds, and 41yds. The first unasked question: you shoot only 1 arrow per stake for a total of 4 arrows for Hunter Round the walk ups. And to answer the 2nd question, no, it was not correct to skip a stake, and yes it was correct to deduct the highest scoring arrow. 

Here's the passage form the Rules book (your questions answered in bold):
ARTICLE VI
Official NFAA Rounds (pg 53 of the NFAA Rules)
Section B:2. Championship Hunter Targets
"...The following shows the yardage distances with the target sizes that are to be used:
70-65-61-58 yards at a 65 cm. target, with 13 cm. white spot
64-59-55-52 yards at a 65 cm. target, with 13 cm. white spot
58-53-48-45 yards at a 65 cm. target, with 13 cm. white spot
*53-48-44-41 yards at a 50 cm. target, with 10 cm. white spot*
48 yards at a 50 cm. target, with 10 cm. white spot
44 yards at a 50 cm. target, with 10 cm. white spot
40 yards at a 50 cm. target, with 10 cm. white spot
36-36-36-36 yards at a 50 cm. target, with 10 cm. white spot
32-32-32-32 yards at a 35 cm. target, with 7 cm. white spot
28-28-28-28 yards at a 35 cm. target, with 7 cm. white spot
23-20 yards at a 35 cm. target, with 7 cm. white spot
19-17 yards at a 35 cm. target, with 7 cm. white spot
15-14 yards at a 35 cm. target, with 7 cm white spot
11 yards at a 20 cm. target, with 4 cm. white spot"

My question to you--was this a NFAA_ certified_ range?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> Little off topic but since this is a rules thread I'll ask here.
> 
> Field shoot yesterday on hunter round 54 yd walk up. I shot two arrows from the first stake. I then skipped the next stake and then shot the last 2. We scored the highest scoring arrow (an X) as a zero.
> 
> Was this correct to skip the stake? If not I would have had another point deduction for 5 arrows shot.


Just a typo on your part, but the walkup of which you speak is a 53 yarder, haha.
*Yes, you were correct in skipping that 2nd stake and shooting the last two correctly*. The BEST you could have gotten is a "15" on this target, if you only shot 4 arrows total. You score the lowest 3 arrows. However, I have seen it where, if the shooter has his/her arrows NUMBERED and shoots them in the correct order, it can be determined which arrow was the one shot from the wrong stake, and you could "recover" a higher scoring shot. But ONE of the 4 arrows still must be scored as a zero. By skipping the 2nd stake and shooting your last two arrows for the target at the correct stake, this allows you to score 3 arrows instead of only the ONE arrow. It also stops you from losing one more point for shooting too many arrows in the "end."
Had you NOT skipped that 2nd stake, then the best you could have scored for the target was the LOWEST of the 5 arrows in the target MINUS one point for shooting too many arrows (likely a "4" or a "3" total score)! All but ONE arrow would have been zeroes. THat is to say, that the highest score you could have mustered was a "4" total, even if all 5 arrows were in the X! 
field14 (Tom D.)


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

field14 said:


> Just a typo on your part, but the walkup of which you speak is a 53 yarder, haha.
> Yes, you were correct in skipping that 2nd stake and shooting the last two correctly. The BEST you could have gotten is a "15". You score the lowest 3 arrows. However, I have seen it where, if the shooter has his/her arrows NUMBERED and shoots them in the correct order, it can be determined which arrow was the one shot from the wrong stake, and you could "recover" a higher scoring shot. But ONE of the 4 arrows still must be scored as a zero.
> Had you NOT skipped that 2nd stake, then the best you could have scored for the target was the LOWEST of the 5 arrows in the target MINUS one point for shooting too many arrows! All but ONE arrow would have been zeroes. THat is to say, that the highest score you could have mustered was a "4" total, even if all 5 arrows were in the X!
> field14 (Tom D.)


Thank you

I know I didn't want 5 arrows in there.

Wound up with a 14 on the target. Cost me 3rd place. A miss at 25 cost me second and a missed bunny cost me 1st lol.

Learned a good lesson. And realize I should throw in a hunter round every so often.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Oops, when I read the post, I thought the double shot at the first stake was done intentionally. You played it correctly by skipping the following stake. :embara:


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Can't help you hit the bunnies, but never would I have let you shoot 2 arrows at 53 yards.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

TNMAN said:


> Can't help you hit the bunnies, but never would I have let you shoot 2 arrows at 53 yards.


The other shooters wouldn’t have either but they thought I had only shot one. Oh well my responsibility.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

erdman41 said:


> The other shooters wouldn’t have either but they thought I had only shot one. * Oh well my responsibility*.


Well yeah, you're the one that takes the hit too. It's just that all the groups I have ever shot in have tried to help each other stay on the right side of the rules. The idea that a whole group could possibly watch someone shoot five X's and score four points is repugnant. 

And I know this is not just a regional thing since I have shot with people from all over at nats, including at least one pro shooter from WI. Smaller guy, very nice....he and his dad dairy farmed together. He'd be early 60 something now.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

TNMAN said:


> Well yeah, you're the one that takes the hit too. It's just that all the groups I have ever shot in have tried to help each other stay on the right side of the rules. The idea that a whole group could possibly watch someone shoot five X's and score four points is repugnant.
> 
> And I know this is not just a regional thing since I have shot with people from all over at nats, including at least one pro shooter from WI. Smaller guy, very nice....he and his dad dairy farmed together. He'd be early 60 something now.


That's not what happened. We were shooting 4 wide. If it was 2 and 2 that would be different. The guys in the group were very nice. It was the lead peer group and I think that everyone was just focused on what they needed to do. I know I wasn't paying any attention to what target or how many arrows the other three were shooting. I was just trying to take care of my business.

Again it was on me. Lesson learned.


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