# Brand Questions about Hoyt & Win Win risers



## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2006)

Yes, WinWin has ILF limb pockets. Any other manufacturer's ILF limbs should fit on the riser (example, the MK limbs I played with in Vegas fit my Inno perfectly fine). Hoyt uses a different limb pocket, it's longer, I think Borders and MK make limbs that will fit the riser, but it's a small market.


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

hoyt formula risers use formula limbs. 99% which are only made by hoyt. Few other company's will special make them.

Hoyt ILF risers use any and all ILF limbs

W&W ILF risers use any and all ILF limbs.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

Basically, the only Olympic rigs that take different limbs (the Formula series) are the Ion X, HPX, RX, Formula Excel Pro, and Formula Excel. They have a longer limb pocket that will not accept standard ILF limbs. A few other companies make Formula versions of their limbs, including MK Korea, Border, and Sky (but not anymore I think). Uukha makes an adapter for their limbs to be used in Formula bows. 

All of the Hoyt Grand Prix bows and any other manufacturers Olympic risers use ILF fittings which are fairly standard across the board. Some limbs might fit tighter or looser marginally in other brand's bows (Samick limbs seem to stick harder in Win&Win risers for some reason), but the the limbs will still work fine.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I would avoid any of the Hoyt Formula risers because you will be limited to Hoyt's very expensive proprietary limbs. Moreover I wouldn't suggest even the richest newbie start with an HPX or Ion-X simply because their geometry is very aggressive.

Get a decent used 25" riser which is known to be straight and go for it. You will want something different in a year or two anyway.

-Grant


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

The above posts gave the answer but just wanted to give my take on it.

I was very much interested in the Hoyt riser when I was looking into an Oly rig. I seriously contemplated the Formula bow but in the end I knew I'd be limited in my limb choices...an inexpensive practice set or even hunting set would be nice. The only reason, other than a great deal on my win win, that I did not go with Hoyt higher end riser was due to the Formula only pocket...a very poor decision by Hoyt in my opinion. I wonder how many people would have purchased their bow had they not make them brand specific.

Maybe Hoyt will wise up and either make a high end ILF riser or make adapters for ILF limbs.


Don't be afraid to look at a used rig...you can find some awesome deals if you wait for the right package. Both my main bows were purchased here and I couldn't be happier.

for example
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2039055

Hoyt ILF riser
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2035665

Win Win
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2041509


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## Ronin Conan (Jul 4, 2011)

Fury90flier said:


> Maybe Hoyt will wise up and either make a high end ILF riser or make adapters for ILF limbs.


The GMX isn't high end enough? Seems to be pretty well regarded, with more than a few people shooting them at the world cup. Of course we're still waiting for them to bring out a carbon riser (or even a reasonable length compound in carbon ...)


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Hoyt appear to be protecting their R&D and equipment investment in both cases... the demand is there, the only reason they won't satisfy it is won't. not can't.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The GMX is a world class ILF riser and has been used by many archers to win Olympic medals and World Cup titles.



> Maybe Hoyt will wise up and either make a high end ILF riser or make adapters for ILF limbs.


In a way, they already have - by bringing their F7 limb to the ILF market.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> The GMX is a world class ILF riser and has been used by many archers to win Olympic medals and World Cup titles.
> 
> 
> 
> In a way, they already have - by bringing their F7 limb to the ILF market.


It doesn't look like Formula will become a de-facto standard -- no one but Hoyt has made a Formula riser and now Hoyt seems to be surrendering by providing their high-end limb as an ILF limb.

I think that the lack of adoption by other manufacturers is partly because the patent application on the limb damper bushing makes it difficult for any other manufacturer to provide a full-featured bow given the lack of space on the riser for a bushing at the limb fittings. Also, the precision advantage that the Formula system offers isn't really necessary -- a little shellac on the slot of the limb butt and an over-sized dovetail (such as Border sells) can provide the same precise fit.

I'll bet Hoyt's product planners have agonized over whether to offer a carbon riser in Formula or ILF or both.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

"if it ain't broke don't fix it"..

that's my opinion on what Hoyt did when they came up with the Formula system...


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

jmvargas said:


> "if it ain't broke don't fix it"..
> 
> that's my opinion on what Hoyt did when they came up with the Formula system...


My daughter's bow upgrade last year was to a PSE X-Appeal instead of a Hoyt partly because of limb availability, partly because she liked the look of the bow, and partly because we could drive to the factory where it was made.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

I have both an Ion-x and a HPX. One has F7 limbs and one has the new Carbon 720 limbs. I like both risers, ion-x has less vibration to it. The carbon limbed hpx is what I gave to my oldest son to use when he gets the recurve bug again.

I've been into bicycling for a long time before this sport. My opinion developed from the bike end on this. I'm not screwing around with low or mid-priced. I know I was going to really get into this sport, not just "try it out to see if I like it." If that was the case I would go to my local range and rent a bow for a year. I'm getting something proven on a world level scale, right off the bat. Even some of the most expensive equipment pales compared to the biking end of costs. I've got a good job so money isn't the issue. I like warranties so used equipment is out the window. I wanted something (like you are looking at now) where you like the looks, and know it's capable equipment. I know with my equipment that it's the archer that needs the improvement 100%. This is my view on this.

Yes, the WIN WIN takes ILF risers. You can spend the same amount on high end ILF risers as you can Hoyt F7 limbs. I was fortunate enough that a local had a high end Hoyt for me to try. I shot it and I loved it. 

Do any of your local shops know or have any contacts of people that have bought them or do you frequent any ranges where people are shooting them? See if any would be willing to try out their rig. I do, I just make sure I have a cheapy arrow or two with me just in case.

ONE MORE THING, don't overbow yourself. Too much poundage makes it REALLY difficult to get good form when one is struggling to hold the weight for more than a few seconds. I started with (at my draw length) at 32 pounds. Sat there for about a year. It was a bit too much to start with for a month or two but I was shooting a ton to build up in a hurry. Now at 42 pounds and have settled into this weight for the long haul. To me, this is way more important than what brand you decide to go with. Either brand would feel bad if you are pulling too much.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Ronin Conan said:


> The GMX isn't high end enough? Seems to be pretty well regarded, with more than a few people shooting them at the world cup. Of course we're still waiting for them to bring out a carbon riser (or even a reasonable length compound in carbon ...)


My bad...forgot about that. For some reason I was thinking it was a Formula riser.



limbwalker said:


> The GMX is a world class ILF riser and has been used by many archers to win Olympic medals and World Cup titles.
> 
> 
> In a way, they already have - by bringing their F7 limb to the ILF market.


F7 ILF? I though they were formula only pocket.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Fury90flier said:


> F7 ILF? I though they were formula only pocket.


Hoyt decided to make it even more confusing for everyone and brought out an ILF version of the F7 limbs  I think thats their strategy. Flood the market with confusing gear tier levels, throw in some misdirection on several different risers and limb fittings and you have a solid base for confused customers willing to throw cash at some shiny metal.

EDIT: I took a look and I guess its not too confusing.

Tier 1: Formula Excel or Grand Prix Excel (ILF)
Tier 2: Formula Carbon 720 or Grand Prix 720 (ILF)
Tier 3: Formula F7 or Grand Prix F7 (ILF)

The risers are a bit more confusing. Because the ILF Excel is terrible since it has no limb alignment, but the Formula Excel DOES. But it looks like:

Tier 1: Excel (non-Formula has no limb alignment)
Tier 2: Horizon
Tier 3: GMX, RX, HPX, Ion-X

Whew... So someone remind me how a beginner is supposed to sort through this again?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

That would explain the confusion.


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## xm8k36d (Oct 3, 2007)

I personally think for risers it's clear: most hoyt are top-level, a few are entry level, you simply avoid the entry level ones(for entry level why not get fantom) and avalon(non-plus).


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Arsi said:


> Hoyt decided to make it even more confusing for everyone and brought out an ILF version of the F7 limbs  I think thats their strategy. Flood the market with confusing gear tier levels, throw in some misdirection on several different risers and limb fittings and you have a solid base for confused customers willing to throw cash at some shiny metal.
> 
> EDIT: I took a look and I guess its not too confusing.
> 
> ...


Hoyt Formula Excel belongs in your Tier 2 of risers. It has easily-adjusted limb alignment and with Formula limbs gets a bushing at each end for accessories.


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

HikerDave said:


> My daughter's bow upgrade last year was to a PSE X-Appeal instead of a Hoyt partly because of limb availability, partly because she liked the look of the bow, and partly because we could drive to the factory where it was made.


How is she enjoying the X-appeal? I was thinking of upgrading to that riser in a few years. (Currently have a Samick Athlete.) I love the curves on it but sadly can't test it out.


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## arrowyn (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies, it's a lot to think about . . . 

thanks for clearing up the confusion because the Hoyt site has pictures but no real explanation except their sales pitch. 

it opens up a few more questions . . . 

does the formula offer something that ILF doesn't have? I mean is there advantages to using it?

Also someone mentioned the HPX aggressive geometry . . . is that the angle / tilt of the limb pocket in relation to the bow handle / center of the riser ? And how does that affect the bow (like aggressive meaning it'll be more prone to stack the limb?) 

And is the smaller hex grub screws really that weak? Or is it just particular brand / quality? Would not want to tap or drill out broken hex screws on a expensive riser. My friend has a shibuya sight and it uses tiny hex wrenches but those are solid . . .


Thanks again!

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I was considering a GMX, but I found these set of videos while looking for GMX reviews. Does his coincide or is there some angle he is getting at? (seemed pretty straight forward to me but I'm new, and I like to get alot of opinions). 

GMX review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gFhgzmrfW8


Win Ex review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEMTb3tbmA

Excel review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMjTErQXW_w



Other videos by that archery shop

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOsRbvZvSorgMmvP3SS4RNQ/videos




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After reading and thinking about it . . . It's still up in the air, but I'm leaning towards win & win because it's a win win to have more options. But the HPX looks awesome and based of reviews, shoots just like it looks. But I have lots of time to think about it . . .



-------


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

Aw, those vids aren't in HD.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

arrowyn said:


> Thanks for all the replies, it's a lot to think about . . .
> 
> thanks for clearing up the confusion because the Hoyt site has pictures but no real explanation except their sales pitch.
> 
> ...


The Hoyt HPX moves the limbs almost an inch forward from conventional geometry (the GMX and RX), which decreases the brace height while effectively increasing draw length. This gives you a significant increase in arrow speed, possibly at the cost of making the bow less forgiving of minor mistakes such as torque on the grip. Limbs on an HPX are slightly heavier than their rated weight (on the RX) but this geometry change brings Hoyt limbs on an HPX more in line with other manufacturers who rate their limbs with bolts out rather than at the center. At a 30 inch draw I probably should have bought an RX, but I was concerned about reaching 70 meters with low draw weight and, more importantly, the HPX was available in anodized black but the RX only in painted white.


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## arrowyn (Jul 4, 2013)

thanks for the explanation.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

jmvargas said:


> "if it ain't broke don't fix it"..
> 
> that's my opinion on what Hoyt did when they came up with the Formula system...


the Formula limb pocket wasn't about fixing anything from a technology basis.


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