# Aiming at the target with a recurve



## southpaw2000

Just wanted some advice on how to aim at the target using a recurve bow. Should I use the tip of the arrow as a reference point or some point on the bow? Some background on me, I started off in archery with an Olympic-style recuve with Sur-loc sight and stabilizer, then went to a Hoyt Vicxen compound bow, and now, just for fun, I just got a Samick SHB one-piece recurve 58 inches, 30 lb draw. I've been shooting the Samick for a week now and my arrows are all over the place. Thanks.


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## Viper1

sp -

START by setting up fairly close to the target (5-10 yds) and focusing on the very center of the "X" in the x-ring. (Don't try to burn a hole in, as range fires can be nasty...) 

Assuming you remember your shooting form from the OR - YES, IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME, and you've switched to side of face anchor, keep shooting and see if your arrows begin finding the center of the target after a few full sessions. 

IF after a few weeks if that, you don't see any improvement, then we can start to discuss more formal aiming methods. Some folks take to the instinctive stuff better/quicker than others, I would have started you off that way, before you went to the OR.

Viper1 out.


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## southpaw2000

Thanks Viper 1, your awesome. I use the middle finger to the corner of my mouth as an anchor. I'll work at the 5-10 yd target for now.


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## Sanford

I might catch some technical grief for my suggestion, but, there doesn't necessarily have to be a change in anchor. I started out and still do shoot primarily instinctive/gap. At first, it was with a typical side of face anchor. I later developed the Oly style under chin anchor to accommodate sight shooting for that venue.

Since, I find the under chin most useful for shooting without sights. Yes, at the short ranges, my arrow tip is of little use for reference, but at longer distances, it's right where I need it. Actually, trying to use the arrow tip on short range always tripped me up anyway.

Another useful aspect of keeping the Oly style anchor is that I gain better use of all my bow - string alignment and riser directly in front. These references actually prove more useful at all ranges. The riser is not a bad gap reference once you learn how to use it for such. String alignment brings added consistency.

For grins, I have tried the old side of face again. It feels very unnatural and tires my draw arm very fast. I feel that form actually is not as mechanically efficient. The draw feels out and away from the line of force and requires added effort to maintain consistent holding force.


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## southpaw2000

Thanks Sanford, I will keep in mind the importance of string alignment. Thanks for the info.


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## tiuser

Viper1 said:


> Assuming you remember your shooting form from the OR -............
> 
> Viper1 out.





Viper1 said:


> .................before you went to the OR.
> 
> Viper1 out.


What is "OR" ??????????????


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## WindWalker

Don't know if "southpaw" plans on just punching paper or to also shoot under bowhunting conditions. If he plans to bowhunt, the so-called "Oly anchor" will be very inhibiting.


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## Viper1

ti -

Sorry for the jargon. OR is just shorthand for Olympic Recurve. It's basically what we used to call "target bows" in the old days. Typically a longer recurve set up with a sight, one or more stabilizers, etc. The point to Southpaw was that, believe it or not,the fundamentals are exactly the same with any type of bow. The only difference between target shooting and bowhunting on Internet forums, is that when shooting an OR, due to the accuracy requirements, all the BS stops.

Viper1 out.


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## centershot

Just read a post by Limbwalker that stated something like "aiming is a very over-rated aspect of archery". He went on to state that form is where it's at. Without consistent form the rest does not matter. He added a rifle shooting analogy that made a lot of sense also. It was that even with a match rifle if the ammo was loaded with different amounts of powder, different primers, different bullets etc. even the best shooter in the world could not hit squat and that aiming was fruitless without consistent ammo........same with archery, consistant arrows, release, draw length, etc. all make for consistant shooting - then it's just a matter of moving the group to the middle.


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## Viper1

Center -

Badda bing, badda bang, badda boom. :thumbs_up

It's funny, that with "trad" and "bowhunting" types the discussion is always on "aiming" or the method of aiming, while the guys who are actually hitting things on a more regular basis don't talk about it as much. Aiming is probably less then 10% of the entire shot process. A critical 10% for sure, but most of the time, poor aiming isn't why we miss. 

Viper1 out.


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## rattus58

southpaw2000 said:


> Thanks Viper 1, your awesome. I use the middle finger to the corner of my mouth as an anchor. I'll work at the 5-10 yd target for now.


I learned the hard way to shoot and fortunately had some help from those that grew up with recurves. One thing I'd like to offer of my own experience is the anchor. I used the same anchor you do, and until I learned to add to it with a more solid point of awareness behind my jawline so that it is creeping from my mouth.

Aloha... :beer:


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## Sanford

WindWalker said:


> If he plans to bowhunt, the so-called "Oly anchor" will be very inhibiting.


Why is that? It inhibits _what_ for those who are accurate using it?


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## WindWalker

> Why is that? It inhibits what for those who are accurate using it?


Bowhunt much...with a recurve or longbow?


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## Sanford

WindWalker said:


> Bowhunt much...with a recurve or longbow?


Nope. What's that official hunting anchor, again?


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## steve morley

It can depend on the type of Recurve and even type of Anchor, I recently made the switch from Longbow to Recurve, The Pro-accent I use for IFAA Bowhunter div on marked Field rounds, with elevated rest and 3 under I tend to gap off the arrow more, that skinny carbon is kinda floating out there like a pin sight lol

The Tradtec Pinnicale I shoot Split finger (as per Fita 3D rules) and I tend to shoot by overall sight picture on unmarked 3D's, framing the whole riser\arrow against the 3D I get a feel for the sight picture more like I did with the Longbow.

There is a number of ways to aim and it's best to try them all and see what's working best for you, once learnt it's just a matter of progaming the info into the subconscious and then learning to focus 100% on the spot you want to hit, even with gap it much better left to the subconscious to do the calulations


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## WindWalker

> What's that official hunting anchor, again?


Don't think _official_, think _conducive._


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## Sanford

WindWalker said:


> Don't think _official_, think _conducive._


Ok, so what's the "very inhibitive" aspect of anchoring with index finger along the underside of the jawbone over anchoring to the side of it or maybe on top of it? Since everyone's head structure is the same, I'm sure everyone would want to use _the_ most conducive and universal anchor. There just seems to be some holes in that statement you pulled out of the air. Can you pull some more for filler?


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## centershot

Ok, back on topic here......If you want to aim off the arrow point, put the point on the center of the target and shoot a group. (Make sure you have a big backstop and/or start at close range-first shots from 10-20 yards will likley be high). Now rotate the target 180 degrees, aim point on at the holes that the first group created. If you do your part, the second group should be right in the middle. Basically an inverse of the first group. Once you figure out where to hold you should be able to shoot predictable shots.


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## WindWalker

> Now rotate the target 180 degrees, aim point on at the holes that the first group created.


What if you can't rotate the target and/or see the small holes?


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## centershot

Use your imagination..............sometimes I think you could find fault with a gift.


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## WindWalker

> _sometimes I think you could find fault with a gift._


I consider the question to be totally legitimate. You provided a method; what is the alternative if your proposed method is not possible?


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## Sanford

I would say the alternative to not being able to rotate a target face or to see the small holes in the paper at 10 -20 yards is to not be shooting a bow. No need at that level of disability. Speaking of holes in things....


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## WindWalker

> I would say the alternative to not being able to rotate a target face or to see the small holes in the paper at 10 -20 yards is to not be shooting a bow. No need at that level of disability. Speaking of holes in things....


That is based an assumption that everyone is tuning on a standard target, has their own target butt, that the target has a replaceable paper face, and that the only holes in the target are few and only made by the individual. 

If not convenient or possible, what are the alternatives?


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## steve morley

I understand where centershot is coming from.

Ok shoot for spot as CS suggests, use an arrow as a ruler to see how far above the group impacted then move ruler to (i.e reverse) the spot to show how far under the spot you need to aim, you can even put one of those sticky flo dots on your gap point on the face to help you learn a little faster

Another option if your shooting marked distances while learning gaps, is to use something on the Bow, with my Reucrve I used plate of Spig rest held at arms length to set the gap point, it's a little crude but enough to work out some rough gaps till you settle into how the bow shoots, shooting Field rounds is a very fast and a good way to learn a Bow and Gaps, the target face size and distance is known so it's just a matter of working in out where on the face you need to hold the arrow point.

Once all this stuff is ingrained you will aquire sight picture on marked and unmarked targets without any problems. For me these methods are much faster learning than trying to instinctive shoot 1000's of arrows till you subconscious finds a pattern, then you have to keep shooting 1000's of arrows to maintain reasonable accuracy (I used to shoot instinctive).

For me Gap\Split is just a matter of doing once a week a few marked distance walkback practice sessions to just focus on the Gaps store them back into the subconscious and I'm good to go, I can also pick up and and pretty much learn a differnt Bow within a doz shots.


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## barebowguy

I agree with Centershot and steve I sometimes use a bright orange ball and place it under the spot where I need to aim to learn the gap for that yardage.


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## sweet old bill

Al Henderson who was one of the best all around traditional archer coach for the USA team once said at a meeting I attended that to aim the bow was 5% of the process and form was 95 %. The key is you work to max your form so that you do the same things correct each time you plan on shooting a arrow. Now at 68 years young I do talk a good game, but for me my form problem has always been I do not get a truce good solid ancor for each time I shoot. That means I got high or low arrows at times and also can be left or right as well. I got a new bow and I also start very close at 10 yards. I shoot a a 4 inch bull and after several shoots I will walk to the target and check the grouping. If I am high say 6 inch above the bull, the next group of arrows I shoot I will hold 6 inchs under the bull and see if this is the gap for the yardage I am shooting, If still high above the bull I will lower my gap point by another inch, till I am hitting in the center of the bull. I then go another 5 yards and start over, I shoot up to 30 yards in my yard. But for hunting I do not take a shot over 20 yards, just to many twigs can get in the way as I no longer hunt from tree stands and just ground blinds. Hope this helps, have fun and you will have a lifetime of enjoyment with archery. I still shoot also a compound bow and can still keep up with the younger guys with scores etc. But for pure fun it is the recurve for me...


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## WindWalker

If I am correctly comprehending "southpaw's" question, I believe the answers to "southpaw's" questions might have gotten a bit off course. 

His question reads as though he doesn't intend to undertake learning to shoot instinctively, and, therefore, wants to know what part of the arrow or the bow you use to reference (aim) the arrow to the "spot" _i.e. sight_. Learning to adjust elevation and windage comes later after he establishes and learns the method of sighting he intends to use _e.g. in focus gap or split-vision._

Some gappers aim by having the tip of the arrow in clear focus and the spot out of focus. I pick and focus on the spot and pick up the point of my shaft peripherally. 

Until he or she is acclimated to gap sighting/aiming, is not unusual for new shooters to have difficulty concentrating/focusing on the spot and correctly referencing the point of the shaft by peripheral vision, especially if the "spot" and the tip of the shaft do not contrast. 

Although picking the spot and clearly focusing on the spot when shooting a bow is, in my opinion, paramount, until the individual learns how to gap shoot it can be conducive for the person to learn by first clearly focusing on the arrow tip and then gradually transist to focusing on the spot. That way they should be then be able to know what to look for and be able peripherally pick up and reference the shaft point even though it is now out of focus.

The aim sequence may be the smaller percentage of the entire process of shooting an arrow, but you can't hit what you don't first see, and you will be lucky if you hit what you see by just casting a shaft in the general direction without first aiming.


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## steve morley

WindWalker said:


> Although picking the spot and clearly focusing on the spot when shooting a bow is, in my opinion, paramount, until the individual learns how to gap shoot it can be conducive for the person to learn by first clearly focusing on the arrow tip and then gradually transist to focusing on the spot. That way they should be then be able to know what to look for and be able peripherally pick up and reference the shaft point even though it is now out of focus.


Thats how the process worked for me when learning to aim. I can't argue with Al Henderson either, without good form how can you can ever learn a consistent aiming method. Instinct gets a bad rep not because it a bad aiming method but because many of the Archers believe burning a hole is all thats required to shoot 2" groups.

The real test of form and aiming is on a Field round, get either one slightly wrong anywhere past 30y and you wont be scoring, the 4 arrow per target eliminates the luck factor. With the short range 3D game it can be pretty easy to kid yourself everything is ok, form mistakes dont show up quite as clearly at an average of 17.5y and the one arrow shot helps with the luck factor.

My Stepson was shooting cub pegs last year ave 10 yards max 20 yards, he snap shot and had quite a wild bowhand on release, it amazed me how he broke every rule for good form yet was a fairly consistent shot, the start of this year he moved up to Jnr and now shoots a max 50y, he was about to quit archery as he cant hit squat, I've moved him from Longbow to Recurve telling him it's totally different animal and has to forget everything about Longbow and learn from scratch, so far for last 10 days I've had him at 5y shooting blank target just for form, Friday night it was getting dark and allowed him to move to 15y, it was too dark to really see and said not to worry as aiming is overated, he shot 4 arrows and couldn't see where they landed till we walked up to the target, he had a 2" group, he's now totally sold on the form thing and next week I'll start to add aiming. 

When he shot his longbow he didn't practice at all between tourneys, now he's asking me to take him out and shoot 3-4 times a week, it's good to see he's enjoying Archery again :smile:


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## Viper1

Steve -

We hear that same or similar accounts time after time. It was true 50 years ago and will be true 50 years from now. Not sure how it got lost in the shuffle in the last decade or two. 

To your point, it's why we keep getting all the non-sense on "trad" forums and why you'll rarely see the same upstairs on the FITA forum. As the distances and required accuracy levels increase, the BS stops. At extended distances, you learn pretty quickly what matters and what doesn't. The part that's usually forgotten, is what makes you more accurate a 50 yds makes you better at 15 yds too.

Congrats on your stepson 

Viper1 out.


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## sweet old bill

Is there some archers for whatever reason can not seem to see the arrow point to use as a sight ??? seems you can see the point when you have not drawn the bow, but when at full draw, the point may not be seen clearly. At that time do you use your hand position ??? I for the life of me just pick a spot and draw and release. Maybe that why I never can say I am good at any yardage over 25 yards, I do right downhill. I have to concur that shooting field sure makes you know if you are doing everything right. I had been shooting several years and found a bow club that was a nfaa club. A perfect score for a field round is 560, I went to the shoot and had a score of 232 for my first shoot. But was so gald I came home with all the arrows I started with. I was using a Browning recurve target bow that was AMO 70 inch, 35 lbs at 28 inch draw, with a hoyt rest and 1916 alum arrows in 24 srt...


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## Viper1

SOB - 

Unless there's a pretty advanced case of glaucoma going on, it's physically impossible not to see the arrow in your peripheral vision. Even severely x-eye dominant folks (like me) have a sight picture, even though it's skewed to some degree. The problem arises, not with seeing the arrow, but how the brain interprets that part of the image. For example, in a classic snap shooting scenario, the bow and arrow might be in motion as anchor is approached and while it arrow is seen, the brain can't establish a "lock". A lot of this stuff happens on a subconscious level and that's why we keep getting these comments on trad forums on who people think they shooting, as opposed to what's really happening. And in most cases the arrow won't be "clear", the target is what's kept in focus, and except for very special circumstances, not the arrow. Yes, it pisses some folks off, but that doesn't mean it's not real. 

BTW - a 232 on first time or return to field shooting ain't too shabby.

Viper1 out.


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## rattus58

Viper1 said:


> SOB -
> 
> Unless there's a pretty advanced case of glaucoma going on, it's physically impossible not to see the arrow in your peripheral vision. Even severely x-eye dominant folks (like me) have a sight picture, even though it's skewed to some degree. The problem arises, not with seeing the arrow, but how the brain interprets that part of the image. For example, in a classic snap shooting scenario, the bow and arrow might be in motion as anchor is approached and while it arrow is seen, the brain can't establish a "lock". A lot of this stuff happens on a subconscious level and that's why we keep getting these comments on trad forums on who people think they shooting, as opposed to what's really happening. And in most cases the arrow won't be "clear", the target is what's kept in focus, and except for very special circumstances, not the arrow. Yes, it pisses some folks off, but that doesn't mean it's not real.
> 
> BTW - a 232 on first time or return to field shooting ain't too shabby.
> 
> Viper1 out.


In my opinion, the brain learns this stuff from practice. Once I learned to anchor, the process of shooting at 5 yards, 25, 15, 7, 50... etc gives your eyes path to your brain something to absorb and learn from. I also know that not everyone is going to "get it", because like horses and other barnyard fauna, you can lead em to water...... :grin:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## barebowguy

after reading this thread I could not remember if I focus on the tip of the arrow or the spot at which I am aiming. so I went to the range to figure this out, after three hours of shooting I have come to the conclusion that I focus on the tip of the arrow and what I am aiming at is in the background although both are pretty clear.


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## Viper1

Tom - 

Just to add to the confusion ... While the mechanism(s) of shooting are remarkably the same from person to person (it's the whole laws of Physics and Anatomy/Physiology things), people do learn things differently. The "secret" of a good coach is to know how to reach a given student and have him "get" the fundamentals in a why that works for him. All of my students "learn" to do the same things, the road I use to get them there, does vary.

Viper1 out.


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## sweet old bill

so what you were saying in your case you do not gap, but from shooting over and over you know when your eye and arm cordination has the bow in the correct position to release. I say I never see the arrow as I just pick a spot, draw, ancor and release. I do have a buddy who uses 100% the arrow point, he leaves his arrow 2 inches long so he can see it in fron of the rise and use it as a sight pin...


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## rattus58

Viper1 said:


> Tom -
> 
> Just to add to the confusion ... While the mechanism(s) of shooting are remarkably the same from person to person (it's the whole laws of Physics and Anatomy/Physiology things), people do learn things differently. The "secret" of a good coach is to know how to reach a given student and have him "get" the fundamentals in a why that works for him. All of my students "learn" to do the same things, the road I use to get them there, does vary.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Having taught flying for 40 years, firearms for 15, and archery for none.... officially... I agree with you. I never understood gap shooting till one day a light went off. I don't "gap" per se, but I gap essentially with the way I shoot, that is, I look down the arrow at draw out to my target, and my distance is "computed" for me by my experience. Gap, as I UNDERSTAND IT, is essentially the same thing, only with reference to the "gap" from the arrow point to the target being more in the cerebral forefront... :grin:

Aloha... Tom.. :beer:


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## BLACK WOLF

southpaw2000 said:


> Should I use the tip of the arrow as a reference point or some point on the bow?


Your aiming technique should be based primarily on your goals and influenced by your personality and abilities. Certain aiming techniques have advantages under specific situations. If you primarily want to bowhunt I wouldn't recommend Point of Aim, String Walking or Face Walking as a first choice just as I wouldn't suggest Instinctive aiming if your primary goal was competeting in target archery.

Ray :shade:


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## blakey

southpaw2000 said:


> Should I use the tip of the arrow as a reference point or some point on the bow?


My suggestion for a beginner is to use a high anchor (I use a 3under middle finger in corner of mouth) to get the arrow nock as near to the line of sight as possible, and then find your POA. Which I think would be on the bull between 20-30yds with that draw weight, depending on arrow length? Then you can practice sighting down the arrow, get a consistent string picture, and aim the point of the arrow at the bull every time. Once you get consistent groups, you can then play around with gap, etc at differing ranges. I say this because this is the path I've just taken, compound to barebow, and it made the most sense to me. Just my ten cents, Cheers


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## msamn

Wow, so many responses, it is overwhelming. Thanks guys. I'm a "she" by the way. Blakey, thanks for your suggestion. I seem to hit the target where I want to when I can see where the arrow is going to go by looking down the arrow shaft. I don't intend on bowhunting or shooting competition. I still shoot my compound, and it seems so much easier to hit the target accurately. The recurve seems like a more pure form of archery and requires so much more concentration and skill. I've had my recurve for a couple of months now, and I'm still shooting at 15 yards but I am getting a grouping of arrows.


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## msamn

The above reply was from southpaw2000, I used a different computer in the house and it registered as msamn.


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## centershot

It's not that hard, just different - yet the same....I'm a newbe myself been at it for 10 months now and am still learning and betting better. Best advise I could give a new shooter is to get Viper's book "Shooting the Stickbow" and read it. It's under $20 from Amazon.


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## YeomanLefty

What I've found that works for me is to start close. Try to hit a baseball size circle over and over. Then back up about 5 yrds. Repeat. Back up some more. And so on. Now when I look at the arrow purposely, I find that I am not as accurate. When I see the arrow in my peripheral vision I try to triangulate the arrows plane to the target. Knowing the the farther I retreat, the higher I need to hold that plane.

I'm a southpaw. I shoot middle finger to mouth corner and index finger's base knuckle to cheekbone for two anchor points. I shoot two finger split.

For me, more focus on the arrows throws off the "instinctive" part and it becomes too mechanical for me to get it right. I go more on an overall sightpicture vision and "if it feels right, release." Not a technical answer at all, but it seems to be working for me with shown improvement over the last several weeks.

Going from one bow to another throws it off for a bit, until the brain computes the change and it starts to click again.


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## Seneca Archer

Great thread, provides LOTS to think about.

First off as a youth (early 60's) no one was an archer in my family , target or hunting. But when my buddies got cool Pearson Jets, wasn't long before I got one. Loved shooting but was ALWAYS the worst. Kept trying & in a couple years got a Pearson Collegete and wanted to try bowhunting (despite my lack of consistent shooting). It pretty much was a dismal failure. Subsequent college, marriage, 7 kids I gave up archery stuck w/ a firearm. Fast forward to late 80's and resurgence of "Trad" archery, the interest was still in me so here and there I would buy and archery magazine or two to supplement my reading...one day I read an article that discussed eye dominance...Holy Crap I figured out I was left eye dominant wasn't long till I had a bow & got back into archery......LOL all that to get to this point germane to the thread topic--

as I got back into archery I still had no mentors.....so to learn I read articles in magazines, bought scads of books on archery old, new, and in-between and shot my bow a lot. I started with the philosophy "it's one shot that counts" so just go stumping and learn to shoot......to now where I've joined an archery club and regularly shoot NFAA Hunter, Field, Animal rounds, Indoor 300, 600 rounds, we shoot American Rounds, Outdoor 450 rounds...I'm addicted to it. 

In the process my form has evolved through everything from overbowed-shortdraw-snapshoot, to 3 fingers under, to middle finger/corner of mouth, and now finally to index finger LIGHTLY touching corner of mouth (ala Dr. Albert Love's "Field Archery Technique"). In the process my draw length has increased to a full 28". My typical bow weight for hunting has dropped from 55# to 40-45#, my bow weights for NFAA field/hunter/ animal is typically around 40, for indoor league 30-35#. 

My confidence w/ my hunting equipment has never been higher and much of the reason has been 1) my quest for better form and 2) shooting all types of NFAA at all types of distances. These types of shoots give you a repeatable, consistent yardstick to measure your progress. 

Southpaw/Msanm--good luck in your shooting and be aware this is the place to come for good constructive help and advice. Lots of very credible advice here, be aware at times there may be advice that appears conflicting due to the posters' different emphasis and shooting goals --just pick and choose what fits your style/needs, it's all good from what I've seen.

Seneca Jim


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## southpaw2000

Thanks for all your great replies, I've been reading each and everyone of them. Great idea to turn the target 180 for re-aiming. There is a wealth of info out there. Seneca archer, thanks for your reply. Often there isn't a lot of people we know that are into archery, so we have to get our info elsewhere. I'm looking forward to reading Viper's book.


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## Seneca Archer

Southpaw,
Viper's book is a great, great, resource on technique, equipment tuning, DIY string making etc., for beginning trad archers, my only criticism would be some of the pictures were a little small & hard to decipher at times, I usually figured them out but had the advantage of my other prior reading of other books. I have the 1st edition, pics etc may have improved in revised edition.

I you want other good reads on "instinctive" shooting you need to go back aways IMHO. No disrepct to G. Fred, Byron F., or others but better explanations are out there...

Far and away the best IMO is Dr. Albert Love's "Field Archery Technique." Doc Love was TX Field Archery Champ back in the day and a Dr. of Optometry, his explanation of the "split vision" technique, from the point of view of his occupational expertise, is unsurpassed IMHO. His hints on arrow trajetory and split vision aiming are also very useful and will help your distance shooting immensely.

A couple other "oldies" I found helpful, but more for form issues, were Dave Keaggy, Sr's. "Power Archery" and Blair Peterson's "Behind the Bow."

Finally,the Dean of Archery, Dr. Robert Elmer's classic "Archery" still gets a perusal at times when my shooting's headed south.....

SA


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