# Thumb rings / Mongolian Draw



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Curious as to why thumb rings aren't really seen in use by oly recurve shooters. Seems like the benefits would be speed and cleaner releases. Negatives might be less consistent anchor and possibly having to change cutout direction (righty shooter would have to shoot a lefty bow due to paradox). Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Ronin Conan (Jul 4, 2011)

They're a release aid, you'd have to shoot in the compound division. WA/FITA rules for recurve specify that: "The fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string".


----------



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I don't think that specifically disqualifies thumb rings. The thumb and index are used to draw hold back and release the string. Wouldn't a thumb ring just be protection for the thumb like a finger tab?

_Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape, to draw and
release the string is permitted, provided they do not incorporate any device that shall assist the
athlete to draw and release the string._

They don't specifically mention a thumb ring though.


----------



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Actually I have no idea if its legal. Looking at the WA rules and bylaws it looks like they added specific wording to allow it, then removed it, or that it might be a longbow-only exception. Not sure. But I guess if they're not legal, that would be the answer!


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Websters: fin•ger (ˈfɪŋ gər) 

n.
1. any of the jointed terminal members of the hand, esp. one other than the thumb.

American Heritage: fin·ger (fnggr)
n.
1. One of the five digits of the hand, especially one other than the thumb.

That a judge or committee would move to stop a competitor from using a thumb grip is an unknown; that the thumb is indeed a 'finger' would appear to be the given.


----------



## Ronin Conan (Jul 4, 2011)

I could be wrong, the shorter english oxford dictionary states:

"1. One of the five terminal members of the hand; esp., one of the four exluding the thumb."

However, I would argue the thumb ring is a device to assist the draw and release of the string ... possibly you could get away with just a leather thumb tab/glove if you wanted to use a thumb draw.


----------



## LittleJP (Nov 4, 2012)

Another issue is that sights will no longer work.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I just apply the "organic" rule...

If it were legal, someone would have tried it already. And if were successful, someone would have used it in a major competition already.

In the absence of those two very obvious things, it seems that neither would be the case.

John


----------



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Makes sense and I like it. I'll call it John's Law of Archery.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

kshet26 said:


> Makes sense and I like it. I'll call it John's Law of Archery.


It has saved me a lot of time and energy...


----------



## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I just apply the "organic" rule...
> 
> If it were legal, someone would have tried it already. And if were successful, someone would have used it in a major competition already.
> 
> ...


While I agree with this methodology, I sometimes feel that a lot is lost in this kind of thinking.
For example the Fosbury flop in the high jump!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Fosbury wasn't as busy as I am.


----------



## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

:laugh:
Or me... =(


----------



## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

So what's consensus for the legality of thumb rings in competition? Or who should I ask? 
I've shot with my hand upside down well enough. I'm down for trying something new


----------



## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Chinese Tea said:


> So what's consensus for the legality of thumb rings in competition? Or who should I ask?
> I've shot with my hand upside down well enough. I'm down for trying something new


You could become the Bill Koch of archery. (Bill Koch revolutionized cross-country skiing by popularizing the skating technique.)


----------



## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> I just apply the "organic" rule...
> 
> If it were legal, someone would have tried it already. And if were successful, someone would have used it in a major competition already.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're an archer and not a cancer research specialist.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Are you either? 

I've said 1000 times that this is just archery. We're not curing cancer. 

Besides, outshoot everyone with a new technique, then proclaim it all you want. That's not too much to ask, now is it?


----------



## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

By your logic no one will ever out shoot anyone using a new technique, in fact nothing new will ever happen.
Ever.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

My my. Quite the critic.

My logic has to do with the athlete. Not the technique or the equipment. In other words, just out-shoot the person next to you instead of spending all your time trying to find tricks to beat them. 

But heck, if you can't shoot a recurve with your fingers, there's always compounds and release aids.


----------



## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Pick any new "trick" or technique and someone had to try it first.
There's nothing wrong with trying new things, even if they've never been tried before.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Never said there was. But the recurve bow is a bow shot by gripping the bowstring with your fingers, the way bows have been shot for many thousands of years - long before even, someone invented the thumb ring. 

So if you want to invent a new style of archery, go ahead.

I like the one we have already.


----------



## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

Would still like to know if they're legal in competition. Anyone have any idea/where to look/who to contact to ask about it?


----------



## SolanoArcher (Jul 18, 2009)

WA Chapter 11: "This article lays down the type of equipment athletes are permitted to use when shooting in World Archery competitions."
WA Judges HandbooK: "It is important to understand that our recurve equipment rules basically describe what is allowed to be used, consequently what is not mentioned is not allowed."

Further, your rational for using a thumb ring "Seems like the benefits would be speed and cleaner releases" indicates an assist to release the string and violates the rule quoted in an earlier answer: "Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape, to draw and release the string is permitted, provided they do not incorporate any device that shall assist the athlete to draw and release the string."


----------



## GilG (Aug 20, 2006)

The thumb ring is just protection for the thumb, just like the tab is protection for the three fingers and has no mechanical parts to aid in the draw or release.I would opine that it is legal,but you have to use a left hand bow if you are right handed.


----------



## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

To:
[email protected]

"Hello,

Under book 3 of the rules (Target archery) of the World Archery Rule book (Constitution & Rules 2012, http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=6821&me_id=827), the rules regarding finger protection are:

11.1.8. Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape, to draw and
release the string is permitted, provided they do not incorporate any device that shall assist the
athlete to draw and release the string.
11.1.8.1. A separator between the fingers to prevent pinching the arrow may be used. An anchor plate or similar device attached to the finger protection (tab) for the purpose of
anchoring is permitted. On the bow hand an ordinary glove, mitten or similar item
may be worn but shall not be attached to the grip of the bow.

Would the use of a thumb ring, as used in a mongolian draw technique be legal under these rules? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb_ring). With a mongolian draw, the thumb is used to grasp and drew the string rather than the fingers, and a protective ring is used in order to avoid excessive pressure on the thumb to prevent injury.

Regards,

me"
----------------------------------------------------------------

Response

This method would be accepted if;
"provided they do not incorporate any devise that shall assist the athlete to draw and release the string"
This is interpreted as to mean anything that the string locks into or behind, such as a groove or bump in or on the protection.
The thumb rings I have seen have a groove or slot to put the string in and would not be allowed. *If there is no groove and the string can slide freely over the protection it would be allowed.*

Tom Green
Chair, Officials & Rules Committee

----------------------------------------------------------------
(bold added by me for emphasis)

Getting there... Some thumb rings have grooves and some do not. Those that don't are intended to be used such that the string is held behind the ring and against the flesh. I don't think those would qualify but I'll ask about it.

However, it sounds like a leather thumb 'ring' or sleeve would probably be allowed as long as there isn't any hard material such as a 'groove or bump' that acts as a hook on the string (that the string can lock into).

PS. I'm interested in the use of a thumb ring because it's a form of archery that's been practiced for thousands of years in the middle east, korea, mongolia, china, japan (using a glove) and probably many others that I haven't been exposed to. No idea if it's 'better' or 'worse' than a three finger mediterranean release.


----------



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Nice sleuthing! So it looks like there maybe hope for those interested by using a leather tab-like protection (at the very least).

On the flip side, it appears as though any hard finger protection would be acceptable as long as it follows those rules (such as smooth thimble-like finger tip coverings).


----------



## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> Nice sleuthing! So it looks like there maybe hope for those interested by using a leather tab-like protection (at the very least).
> 
> On the flip side, it appears as though any hard finger protection would be acceptable as long as it follows those rules (such as smooth thimble-like finger tip coverings).


Thanks 

What you say makes sense. In fact, I believe that some shooting gloves have hard plastic inserts to help protect the fingers.

Sent another email, asking about this type of thumb ring in particular:
http://ravenswoodleather.com/index.php?p=product&id=470

It seems like a decent solution. Same thing as a finger tab, just for your thumb.


----------



## LittleJP (Nov 4, 2012)

You'll have to shoot Korean style, as opposed to Turkish with that. Let us know how you shoot with it. I've kept thumb shooting to my composite bows.


----------



## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

Chinese Tea said:


> Thanks
> 
> What you say makes sense. In fact, I believe that some shooting gloves have hard plastic inserts to help protect the fingers.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response. There are thumb rings without grooves, for example Manchu cylindrical rings, but I don't think they qualify based on that interpretation of the rules because the string is held behind the ring.
However, would a leather thumb ring like this be allowed under the rules as long as the string is held only on the leather (just like a finger tab)?
http://ravenswoodleather.com/index.php?p=product&id=470

--------------------------------

Yes, I think that would qualify.

Tom



LittleJP said:


> You'll have to shoot Korean style, as opposed to Turkish with that. Let us know how you shoot with it. I've kept thumb shooting to my composite bows.


Thanks


----------



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Nice! So there you have it. Thumb draw is legal. Also any covering of the thumb is allowed provided the only thing preventing the string from loosing is placement of the thumb (no grooves, bumps, or hooks). Solid coverings would certainly be more scrutinized, but the rules as laid out by WA definitely allow for them.


----------



## Gabbler1 (Aug 22, 2013)

Excellant thread.
Thanks everyone.


----------



## arrowyn (Jul 4, 2013)

That's funny, for barebow I shoot thumbring (it's more natural to me), also one can use short horsebows (short bows in general) and draw them (3 finger w/ tab or glove gets fingers crushed for that type of bow). I use a bolt take down (SF flame / inferno) PSE razorback risers with limbs, for left handers (explanation below). 

I was going to get a LH olympic set up with a decent bow that can be good for bare or Olympic . . . and try out thumbring shooting with Olympic style because my barebow shooting is primarily thumbring and its a bear to switch from 3 finger to thumb and messes with form and muscle memory.


Thumb ring archery is combat archery (look to Turkish technique, the Ottomans were using archery when most of Europe had switched to firearms, right before firearms became prevalent as the main distance weapon, unfortunately the Battle of Lepanto had lost many artisans for the empire, which heightened the demise of military archery). There's alot to be said also with the Mongol effectiveness. 



Thumb ring is a release aid if its a hard thumbring (such as the Manchu, horn / metal or wood ones like Turkish or Korean style), since the string is held by a thumb ring or some have a lip built on that holds the string, so can't really use it (for Olympic or certain events). Also hard thumbrings must be sized properly or else circulation is cut off, if too small, or the thumbring goes flying off, if too large, upon release. The technique I love it because it allows the arrow to be held and one can jump and run w/out the arrow falling off the rest or off the string (if your technique is right), and it allows horseback archery because of the stability. 


Plus your drawing hand can hold 1-3 arrows so speed shooting is a possibility. Native Americans legend is shoot 9 arrows into the air before the first hit the ground. The Guinness (beer yummy) world record is 11 by a thumb ring archer. Also could explain why repeating rifle (with the lever) could place a soldier w/out a revolver on equal firing pace (and considered the firearm that "won" the west) with a Native American brave.

The rest / shelf has to be on the same side as the drawing hand (mine is a left hand riser) or the archer's paradox hits the riser (turkish and mongolian holds the arrow on the right side), and because the draw hand is on the same side, its faster to place the arrow on the rest (shelf / rest / hand). Traditional thumbring archery the bows can be held by either hand (they have no shelf or rest, the bow hand is the rest). 

A general rule is which direction the drawing hand's finger(s) point is which side is where the arrow rests. 3 finger on a right hand draw points to the left, so it goes on left side. A thumbringer the thumb points to the right, so the arrow rests on the right side.

However the Saracen manual for archery says that leather thumbrings were protection aids and offered accuracy but required more technique on the archer side because there is no hook like on horn / metal / stone etc thumb rings. 

I was thinking of making a cordovan leather outside and soft leather inside thumbring similar to a tab (like the KSL one). A lot of traditional Turkish and Korean archers use billard balls and dremel tools to make thumbrings, some even use PVC. 

I haven't thought too much about the rules but I was thinking along the lines of a leather based one, as tabs are allowed . . .


----------



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

toj said:


> By your logic no one will ever out shoot anyone using a new technique, in fact nothing new will ever happen.
> Ever.


Oh?


----------

