# Time for a new bow? Or just roast my form?



## Rjk89 (Sep 9, 2011)

I've owned a used 2009 Bowtech Admiral for about 3 years now- currently 70#, 29.5", 31" ATA. For reference, I stand 6' 2" with a 75"+ wingspan.

This was my first upgrade from my first bow (Parker Buck Hunter- 60# 27.5"). Immediately started shooting better (league scores went from 265 to 290 on day one), due to the fact that it actually fit me. The Parker had a whisker biscuit, and cut fletchings if I shot broadheads at field points- It tuned great, and still groups great for anyone it might fit.

Tuning my broadheads on the Bowtech, I had to tune the rest hard to the inside- needs to go a little farther, but I get fletching contact on the cables if I do. Shooting 300 spine from two different manufacturers (9.5 or 10.2 GPI), with 100 or 125 grain points to get ~425 grain total arrow weight- point being, they both fly exactly the same.









The more I read, the more I learn, the more I realize this bow might not fit me. Checked my wingspan at the archery shop, and they suggested I get a 30.5 in draw length- this bow maxes out at 30", but I had to take it back to 29.5" because it was chewing up the servings on the cables. Which only makes the problem worse.

Lost the bumper off the string stop last week, having trouble finding a replacement, and I'm about fed up with everything. Figured I should check in here before changing bows so close to elk season.

Full draw, three different ways- standard, trying to find something more comfortable, and trying to straighten my neck.

























Now that I finally take the time to look at a photo of myself, I think the ATA is way too short, the draw length is a bit short, and my form could really use help.

So I'll finally get around to it- can I make this bow work, or should I head to the store tomorrow night?


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Hopefully Nuts and Bolts will see this post but it looks to me that you are at least an inch too LONG, NOT SHORT!! Wingspan is a VERY poor way to determine draw length fit! ATA won't really make a difference IF you get the draw length set correctly. Does that bow have adjustable draw length capability on the cams?? That is where to start.
Arne


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## Rjk89 (Sep 9, 2011)

Moebow said:


> Hopefully Nuts and Bolts will see this post but it looks to me that you are at least an inch too LONG, NOT SHORT!! Wingspan is a VERY poor way to determine draw length fit! ATA won't really make a difference IF you get the draw length set correctly. Does that bow have adjustable draw length capability on the cams?? That is where to start.
> Arne


It does, and I can shorten up my trigger release as well. Currently maxed at 29.5", since it was chewing up servings at 30". I still feel like I'm a bit too "scrunched up" at this draw length, and that I can't fully get my release arm back to lock in at full draw. But I'll shorten up my release and try to get some more photos.

And the 30.5" was the suggestion from the bow shop. If they had told me 30", they might have sold me a bow right then and there (only 2 bows over 30", nothing affordable).

I'm mostly fed up with my bow needing to be tuned to the point I get fletching contact on the cables- older searches on here revealed others had the same issue with this model, and fixed it with a "shoot thru" cable system to eliminate the roller cable guard.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Moebow said:


> Hopefully Nuts and Bolts will see this post but it looks to me that you are at least an inch too LONG, NOT SHORT!! Wingspan is a VERY poor way to determine draw length fit! ATA won't really make a difference IF you get the draw length set correctly. Does that bow have adjustable draw length capability on the cams?? That is where to start.
> Arne


IF Rjk89 learns correct posture for a DOWNHILL pointing arrow,
IF Rjk89 completely locks out the bow arm, to a ZERO bend bow side elbow,
then, the draw length actually works out correct within say 1/4-inch.

I had to massively dissect his body parts and fix the alignment of the upper body,
and after I got his HEAD forwards of his belly button, cuz the arrow is pointing DOWNHILL
T-form and all that boring stuff, the draw length actually works. Release elbow has to come up significantly.



I drew an outline of his HEAD in the doctored photo, and connected to an artificial backbone in the doctored photo, and made a copy and pasted onto the original photo. So, the TOP of the red line is where the MIDDLE of his neck SHOULD be located. The yellow filled outline is where Rjk89's HEAD is supposed to be. The backbone should be 90 degrees to the arrow.

The collar bones are way out of whack. Tops of collar bones should be parallel to the arrow. I took out the massive bending in the bow side elbow, and got the upper arm bone (humerus) and the forearm bones (radius and ulna) all parallel to the arrow.

So, if Rjk89 wants to shoot BENT elbow style, then Coach Arne Moe is correct, the draw is minimum 1-inch too long, with BENT elbow style.

Example of shooting form, for a DOWNHILL pointing arrow.



Analysis of DOWNHILL shooting form.



Who cares about T-form. Form is what it is. Just lean backwards consistently,
when the arrow is pointing downhill, and that's all that matters, right?

Nope. Keep T-FORM in the upper third of your backbone, get the LEFT armpit FORWARDS of the left ankle, and you will shoot much tighter groups. Period.

Oh yeah. FIX the bow hand.





THIS bow hand style, not the OP bow hand technique, the 45 degrees on the knuckles works for 99% of the humans on this planet. Will reduce the sideways misses.


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## Rjk89 (Sep 9, 2011)

@nuts&bolts - literally at a loss for words, wasn't expecting anything nearly that detailed. It's lot to digest, but I'll get on it after work tonight.

That being said, should I be able to touch the string to my nose without leaning my head forward? That is, once I fix my grip, bow arm, release arm, collar bones, lean, etc.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Post a NEW photo with a dead level arrow. Raise your target all the way up so middle of target is at YOUR shoulder height. Level arrow at full draw is easiest to master. I had to digitally dissect your body parts, and reassemble in the "basic t-form". Put on shoes, cuz the heel height changes your posture at full draw. We can do this again,
and with a LEVEL arrow at full draw, I can better evaluate head tilt angle, etc.


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## Rjk89 (Sep 9, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> Post a NEW photo with a dead level arrow. Raise your target all the way up so middle of target is at YOUR shoulder height. Level arrow at full draw is easiest to master. I had to digitally dissect your body parts, and reassemble in the "basic t-form". Put on shoes, cuz the heel height changes your posture at full draw. We can do this again,
> and with a LEVEL arrow at full draw, I can better evaluate head tilt angle, etc.


Three photos, wearing my hunting boots. Hope I got these level enough. Tried to apply the previous advice, kinda wish I could get the videos small enough to upload. Photos can be cropped if needed.

And thanks for the advice so far- really appreciate it.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Better. Still, some small things to work on. Right shoulder/collar bone needs to drop DOWN.
LEFT shoulder/collar bone needs to swing UP. BEnd in the elbow, if you wish to keep this much bend in the elbow,
then, drop the draw length 1/2-inch shorter. IF you want to keep this draw length,
LIFT elbow up (meaning unbend elbow) to push riser FARTHER away.










RED outline with YELLOW fill/shadow shows you where your body parts are located.
Doctored photo on the left, shows the changes. YELLOW arrow shows the unbent elbow,
so the vertical space between arrow and top of elbow is LESS. If you rest your bow arm on top of a table,
the bow arm bones will be LEVEL, parallel to the arrow. See how your latest photo, the bow arm is a BOWL.

WHY all this hoo-hah about "form". Form doesn't matter. Well, only if accuracy also does not matter. FORM and accuracy go together. Your accuracy will be SO-SO in your latest photo. Level out tops of shoulders and collar bones to LEVEL, and parallel to the arrow, while at full draw, your accuracy will be even tighter. You decide how accurate you want to be.


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## Rjk89 (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks again, @nuts&bolts. Truly appreciate all the time you've put into this.

Took your advice to heart, been working a lot in front of the camera to try and get my form in line with all of your suggestions. But I don't have air conditioning, so most of it was done shirtless and I'll refrain from posting any of those photos. Hopefully I can get a photo of my new form tomorrow.

Went to the shop tonight, got my peep sight moved up so I could keep my head vertical instead of leaning in, and was able to get my sight housing back to a reasonable level.

Adjusted my grip as you suggested, and broadheads are grouping with the field points out past 50 yards (rest is still all the way in to the riser, but I could care less at this point- it's tuned for how I'm shooting).

Almost as important- group size is about half of what it was previously. Been more difficult to shoot repetition & hold full draw, as it feels like I'm using different muscles now. Trying to build that slowly so I don't cause more bad habits from being tired.

My bow arm got smacked by the string a few times, but it seems that flexing my lat to pull the shoulder down rotates the arm out of the way.

I aIso plan on hitting the walking course to work on maintaining form while bending at the hip for up- and downhill shots.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Excellent news! Group size is telling you that the changes you tried are good changes. Keep up the good work.


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## Rjk89 (Sep 9, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> Excellent news! Group size is telling you that the changes you tried are good changes. Keep up the good work.


Wanted to give an update on this- the help was fantastic, and I keep going back to view it every few months.

Sent that bow off to Bowtech, and the bottom cam bearings were toast- that's apparently why it wasn't tuning down center. Bought a used Bowtech Reign 7, and the grouping is fantastic, tuning great down center. Need to fix that Admiral, though- it was fun to shoot, and it's nice having a backup.


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