# ASA and Open A



## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

I hope it's a misprint, but I just saw where Open A is slated to shoot their whole round on Saturday in Metropolis while the ASA caters to the Bumper class. I guess it's too much to put them on the a Open Pro class with the other pros they want to be like. Don't get me wrong, if they need a range finder class I want them to have it, but not at the expense of my having a fun weekend. It costs too much money and vacation time to have to shoot it all in one day. And God only knows how hot it will be in Metropolis.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

No misprint,there is a thread about this,how did you miss it


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## P'town Shooter (Dec 30, 2012)

No misprint. Known 50 shot all 40 in one day in Ky. Just trying to spread it around I think. Calling for cooler weather this year but not much.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

:crybaby2:


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

Spread it around??? LOOKS MORE LIKE CATERING TO ME. WHY NOT THROW THEIR BUTTS ON THE SAME RANGE AS OPEN PRO. That's what they want to be considered as. Lol. I watched the shoot down in London, Ky. I guess that's why I must suffer. Must appease them! Heck with us who've supported the ASA for many years and the ASA. MIGHT AS WELL STUFF MILK JUGS WITH SOCKS, PUT A DOT ON THEM AND HANG THEM FROM A LIMB. Why the need for an expensive 3d target? Lol.


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## harley36 (Mar 4, 2013)

No disrespect to any of the open A shooters but there are multiple other classes with more shooters than A that have been having to shoot all 40 in one day with the exception of the Friday opportunity but I also agree that this is bs and it's hard to travel as far as some of the shoots are to stand in 100 degree temps and have to shoot both rounds in one day and for you open A guys who haven't had to do that yet good luck in metropolis it's gonna be hot slow and tiresome thus the reason I'm not going!!something needs to be done about this


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

40 shots in one day TOO MUCH? What the heck? Good grief. IF the time limits ARE enforced and those backing up the groups by dawdling were nailed, then you'd be off the courses in good order.
40 shots is NOT a marathon, folks, MOST shooters are just getting warmed up and shoot way more than that in an hour long practice session!
That and it beats the delights out of having to shoot FOUR 10 target sets of targets, too! TWO 20 target sets is WAY BETTER!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

P'town Shooter said:


> No misprint. Known 50 shot all 40 in one day in Ky. Just trying to spread it around I think. Calling for cooler weather this year but not much.


Yeah, and I heard they were off the courses in about THREE hours for ALL 40 targets, too!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## harley36 (Mar 4, 2013)

It took an hour and thirty minutes for open c to shoot the first five targets sat am in Kentucky after climbing that power line with a heart disorder as hot as it was then having to go back up that hill later the same day you are looking at a total of about 8-9 hours on the range with the only shade coming from an umbrella I'm sorry but anytime I'm that uncomfortable I will choose to stay at home I also do not practice at home in those elements for those of you that do maybe your accustomed to it but trying to squeeze 250 + shooters in to shoot all 40 in one day is freaking nuts in my opinion especially for those of us that dive 8-12 hours on Friday to get there and then wake up at 5:00 to go stand in that weather all day! Just my .02


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

harley36 said:


> It took an hour and thirty minutes for open c to shoot the first five targets sat am in Kentucky after climbing that power line with a heart disorder as hot as it was then having to go back up that hill later the same day you are looking at a total of about 8-9 hours on the range with the only shade coming from an umbrella I'm sorry but anytime I'm that uncomfortable I will choose to stay at home I also do not practice at home in those elements for those of you that do maybe your accustomed to it but trying to squeeze 250 + shooters in to shoot all 40 in one day is freaking nuts in my opinion especially for those of us that dive 8-12 hours on Friday to get there and then wake up at 5:00 to go stand in that weather all day! Just my .02


Time limit rule? Hows about ENFORCING IT! Once again, however, 112 scoring shots in ONE DAY is common-place in other venues. FOUR shots per target...and yes, they have courses full to the gills at some of the major shoots. This is accomplished for FOUR people, FOUR shots per target for 112 scoring shots...in 5-6 hours, and on a good day, in UNDER 5 hours!
For NATIONAL level events, this is done for 3-5 days in a row, with the last day having the potential of only having to shoot 28 shots in about 3 hours or so, on the animal round.

TARGET events shoot 90 arrows (900 round) out in the open sun...and are done within 3-4 hours max.

40 shots in one day is NOT a marathon.
Now that I have said this, I can see your point if you aren't used to doing this in any events. However, times must change and the ASA has to do what they have to do to keep things moving and advancing. There is only so much room at the venue for the courses, and while it would be nice to add more courses, there likely isn't room; and there is more to it than just popping in another couple of courses; but that is another discussion.
The first place to look for the time on the course element is the enforcement, and I mean STRICT enforcement of the time limits! Nailing the dawdlers and those that talk and carry on conversations at the target instead of moving on are the first places to start! One minute does NOT mean a minute and 10 seconds. It does NOT mean you stand on the stake after shooting your shot and ogling the target...you are using the next guy's "time" once your arrow strikes the target...get off the frickin' stake; you can ogle your arrow after you get off the stake.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

field14 said:


> Yeah, and I heard they were off the courses in about THREE hours for ALL 40 targets, too!
> field14 (Tom D.)


Nope that was for 20 targets. I walked along the entire second 20 with them.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

pointndog said:


> Nope that was for 20 targets. I walked along the entire second 20 with them.


Thanks for correcting me. That still seems like a long, long time...so there must have been some dawdlers out there on the course, too? With that many people and the targets being "walk-backs" instead of roving like a field course, I can understand the delays, somewhat.
My source told me it was well under 3 hours, whatever that means, and the person didn't specify whether it was 20 or 40 targets.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

I know BJ posted the time. I have been shooting Open C and I am done for know I think. I can't stand waiting that long to shoot my next arrow and watch how quite a few have no concept of time. Plus 6 to a stake, half of the shots the you have to shoot for the top 12.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Under 3 hours for 20 targets is good. That is less than 9 minutes per target. When you have 4+ people per stake that's actually rolling along. 
- All archers range the target or guesses yardage. (110 secs total)
- 1 archer at a time shoots. Some groups have 6 archers. (240 secs)
- After shooting walk to the target. (15 secs)
- Call scores, record, double check and pull arrows (90 secs)
- Walk back to the stake. (20 secs)
- Move to next stake. (15 secs)
8.1666666 minutes
Repeat.......

In the beginning we say hello and get organized. 
At the end we double check and sign-off on cards. 

So 20 targets in say 3 hours with groups of 4 or more is a pretty good pace. Of course the time it takes to shoot a round varies. Throw in narrow trail, narrow lanes, rough terrain and things slow down easily. On narrow lanes only one or two people at a time can see the target to range/guess yardage. Rough or steep lanes and/or trails slows down too many archers a fair amount. I am saying some people are much slower moving than others on some courses.

In many other archery games groups shoot at the same time. At an ASA tournament different ranges take different amounts of time to shoot. A real open flat course with wide lanes and a wide trail using targets close together will be shot fairly quickly. Whereas, the opposite is also true. A couple of the (K45) courses I've shot at the Classic in Culman were sloooowwww. They had very narrow lanes and fairly rough terrain. It made the course fun but it also made it fairly slow.


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## victor001 (Jan 31, 2011)

harley36 said:


> It took an hour and thirty minutes for open c to shoot the first five targets sat am in Kentucky after climbing that power line with a heart disorder as hot as it was then having to go back up that hill later the same day you are looking at a total of about 8-9 hours on the range with the only shade coming from an umbrella I'm sorry but anytime I'm that uncomfortable I will choose to stay at home I also do not practice at home in those elements for those of you that do maybe your accustomed to it but trying to squeeze 250 + shooters in to shoot all 40 in one day is freaking nuts in my opinion especially for those of us that dive 8-12 hours on Friday to get there and then wake up at 5:00 to go stand in that weather all day! Just my .02


The only good thing is you don't have to shoot the next day . Gives you more time to recover from heat stroke in the hospital . :wink:


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## P'town Shooter (Dec 30, 2012)

With all this going on, you can now add water and mud to the mix. Tropical storm Bill is going to bring heavy rain this weekend. Already wet there.


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

Quit whining, you can shoot halve on friday. I think it great they even let you shoot.


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

We only knew we could shoot half on Friday by calling, it was not on site. Why is it whining when I'm spending my money and my time and know what I'd like to do with both? Besides, I said I want K50 to have their way. What I want is for ASA TO BUY MORE TARGETS with the record number of entries.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Dean Lawter said:


> We only knew we could shoot half on Friday by calling, it was not on site. Why is it whining when I'm spending my money and my time and know what I'd like to do with both? Besides, I said I want K50 to have their way. What I want is for ASA TO BUY MORE TARGETS with the record number of entries.


It was on the site earlier. 

Just in case anyone is wondering, I called to clarify.... If you shoot Friday, your second round is at 730 Saturday.

I'll probably just shoot my 40 Saturday.


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## MedCop (Jul 6, 2014)

Open C shot all 40 in same day in KY and AL, not a big deal really as it's only 40 arrows. The kicker of shooting all in one day is the 0730 start time....then it doesn't get started on time so we are behind, that puts the class behind us not starting on time then we come back to the range and have to wait for them to finish for our second 20 thus finishing at just around dark. It makes for a very, very long day especially in the heat.


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## BubbaDean1 (Dec 20, 2014)

Dean........where would you suggest these extra targets be set? It is not a question of Mike buying extra targets it is a question of where to set them. Most of ASA's sites are at full capacity for ranges.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

BubbaDean1 said:


> Dean........where would you suggest these extra targets be set? It is not a question of Mike buying extra targets it is a question of where to set them. Most of ASA's sites are at full capacity for ranges.


Thanks for the update....my question to Mike would be when he signs the contracts with host sites is there a clause that states if the organization grows to this ## for certain number of shoots ASA can find larger venues with no penalties?


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

Lol. I am shooting HALF on Friday.mthey don't LET me shoot, I pay to do so. Lol


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

BubbaDean1 said:


> Dean........where would you suggest these extra targets be set? It is not a question of Mike buying extra targets it is a question of where to set them. Most of ASA's sites are at full capacity for ranges.


He must grow with sport. As far as where K50 should shoot, why not on Open Pro range? That's who they want to be compared to. Also terrain is used to try and trick the unknown. I say put K 50 at the shootdown sight and make a spectator sport of it. It don't matter that the targets are side by side.


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## BubbaDean1 (Dec 20, 2014)

Dean I could see the K50 out in the wide open. Have you ever been to Paris and saw how the Pros had to deal with the wind at the shootdown. I am pretty sure if any class had to shoot in the wide open there would be a river of tears running down the range.


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## BubbaDean1 (Dec 20, 2014)

Cenochs where are these larger venues that allow the ASA to set ranges like they do. There are other factors to consider ........motel and amenities, a building for the sponsors(Metropolis is the only site without one), enough wooded acreage to set ranges safely, parking and the list goes on. Another huge factor is the host's ability or willingness to do the prep work required for an ASA shoot.

Dean, Mike growing with the sport? He is growing the sport. Look at what ASA is doing compared to the other organizations. The others are either barely maintaining their numbers or in some cases not drawing enough shooters to need to set more than 40 competition targets.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

BubbaDean1 said:


> Cenochs where are these larger venues that allow the ASA to set ranges like they do. There are other factors to consider ........motel and amenities, a building for the sponsors(Metropolis is the only site without one), enough wooded acreage to set ranges safely, parking and the list goes on. Another huge factor is the host's ability or willingness to do the prep work required for an ASA shoot.
> 
> Dean, Mike growing with the sport? He is growing the sport. Look at what ASA is doing compared to the other organizations. The others are either barely maintaining their numbers or in some cases not drawing enough shooters to need to set more than 40 competition targets.


Look at how ASA is supporting young archers, including Scholastic 3D. That the future.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

BubbaDean1 said:


> Dean I could see the K50 out in the wide open. Have you ever been to Paris and saw how the Pros had to deal with the wind at the shootdown. I am pretty sure if any class had to shoot in the wide open there would be a river of tears running down the range.


Oh, no. Don't get me started with regard to ASA shooters shooting out in the open without the use of you know whats to "block the wind for them." OMG....Yet with the exception of 3-D ALL the other organizations on the planet are NOT allowed "wind breaks" or screening any larger than the size of a legal envelope...and they sure as heck shoot farther distances than 50 yards out in the WIDE OPEN elements.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

BubbaDean1 said:


> Cenochs where are these larger venues that allow the ASA to set ranges like they do. There are other factors to consider ........motel and amenities, a building for the sponsors(Metropolis is the only site without one), enough wooded acreage to set ranges safely, parking and the list goes on. Another huge factor is the host's ability or willingness to do the prep work required for an ASA shoot.
> 
> Dean, Mike growing with the sport? He is growing the sport. Look at what ASA is doing compared to the other organizations. The others are either barely maintaining their numbers or in some cases not drawing enough shooters to need to set more than 40 competition targets.


If I recall the responses here on AT and other places when ASA first announced the start of the KNOWN Distance classes, there was almost a civil war! Mike was told by the die hards that "known yardage 3-D" was an abomination and that 3-D is ALL about judging yardage and on and on and on...and how it was going to be an utter failure and never catch on. Well, those die-hards are now eating crow, aren't they?
I love the support for the younger archers, too. Mike IS growing the ASA and he IS growing 3-D archery by setting things up so that EVERYONE can shoot. He also obviously sees where the potential for future growth exists. He doesn't let the grass grow beneath his feet; he thinks outside of the box, and is certainly not a stick in the mud with this "it has been this way, blah, blah, blah, and it is ALWAYS going to be this way, no matter what. THAT is what "kills" archery organizations and venues...doing the same ole thing, the same ole way, things taking a downward trend and continuing the same ole, same ole and still expecting different results. 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

BubbaDean1 said:


> Cenochs where are these larger venues that allow the ASA to set ranges like they do. There are other factors to consider ........motel and amenities, a building for the sponsors(Metropolis is the only site without one), enough wooded acreage to set ranges safely, parking and the list goes on. Another huge factor is the host's ability or willingness to do the prep work required for an ASA shoot.
> 
> Dean, Mike growing with the sport? He is growing the sport. Look at what ASA is doing compared to the other organizations. The others are either barely maintaining their numbers or in some cases not drawing enough shooters to need to set more than 40 competition targets.


I don't know where these venues are located. I am positive there are others around the US. I don't know the process used to find shoot locations, does mike employee individuals during the off season to travel and look for shoot locations or does he just use word of mouth. There has to be a contingency plan for additional locations if one of the current locations has issues. If I were to look for locations I would first take all the zip codes of the shooters that have attended more than one ASA event over the past five years plot the results on a map and start looking for a location 3 to 4 hours central to my core audience and put together a plan. One would think and plan for growth when committing to contract with a host site. You cannot have your hands tied when you start having growing pains. 

Quoting eparisextra.com the ASA's financial impact to the City of Paris for one ASA event is 1.2 million dollars and this is one of the smaller attended events. That seems to be a pretty powerful sells pitch when looking for a new venue. 

Growing is good and what we want so if venues are not the immediate answer then going back to shoot times at 8-12 Saturday and 8-12 Sunday could be the short term answer. When classes meet there limit roll them over to the 8am Saturday and 12 Sunday shoot times this was what it used to be. 

There are 6 classes with a max yardage of 50 yards is there a rule where certain groups must shoot with each other? If the groups were mixed according to math no one would have to shoot all their targets on Saturday. 

Kentucky all 6 50 yard classes total = 382/80(ABCD Range) = 4.8 per target if my math is correct.. These numbers reflect the largest attendance this year..Could this be a short term solution?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Cenochs, I think all shooters in a group should be in the same class. I know at times there will be exceptions. For the most part a competition is about shooting with your peers.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> Cenochs, I think all shooters in a group should be in the same class. I know at times there will be exceptions. For the most part a competition is about shooting with your peers.


I agree and lets take it one step further wouldn't it make for since for the Mens Pros to shoot with the Semi Pros the Senior Pros shoot with the Senior Open and the Woman's Pros shoot with the Woman's Open? Makes allot more since to have the class below Pro shoot the same course as the Pros so the ones trying to move up can get a taste of the course layout and create more of a bond with the other classes which will make the transition easier?


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## harley36 (Mar 4, 2013)

Agreed


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## JWP41 (Jun 21, 2011)

I shoot open A and was a little unhappy with shooting the 40 targets all on Saturday when I first heard about it. I called first thing last week when I saw it to get the specifics and thankfully they were offering up the Friday option, which in my opinion works out better for me because I get a chance to watch some of my friends in semi pro shoot a round on Sunday. I have shot all 40 in one day years ago when I shot open C and it's not to fun to be honest. There are a couple of issues that I see with open A doing this. First of all most of the classes who have already been doing the all in one day are either all known or half known. This for the most part shortens the amount of time that the classes are on the range because they aren't taking as long to judge yardage. Open A averages 4.5 hours on the range at most shoots. That will be 9 hours of shooting out in that 90 degree weather which is okay for some and not for others. The other issue that I could see coming from this is with Semi shooting the same ranges on Saturday and Sunday, if they don't move the stakes then someone could accidentally or purposely start mentioning yardages in front of those shooters on Friday or Saturday night after the open A guys have already shot the targets. I would never accuse anyone of cheating but the potential for that to happen will be there. My friend who is riding up with me shoots semi, can he come down on my range Friday evening and watch and listen to everyone shooting the targets that he will be shooting the next day without getting an unfair advantage. I'm probably over thinking it but there are always pro's and cons. I also feel that a little more notice should be given when making these changes given how far in advance most people make their motel reservations.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I would bet a significant amount of money that if a Semi-Pro uses the yardages from Open A he'll crash and burn........BIG TIME! I am that certain that the ASA is well versed in setting up a professional 3D tournament.


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## JWP41 (Jun 21, 2011)

That's what I would like to think as well but being that we have shared the ranges with them most of the time the past few years we are able to see their targets and they are able to see ours at the same time, or at least walking in and it's very obvious that most of this year since we have been switched to a 50 yard class that the stakes and or targets haven't been moved for them or us. Even before we became a 50 yard class very rarely did you see them moved much, thus where all the complaints came from that you can easily find on AT about them taking it too easily on Semi Pro. I have a good friend who has been a range official for the ASA for a long time and he has stated in the past that due to time restraints or the layout of the ranges that they don't move them for those 2 classes very often. I appreciate everything that Mike and everyone at the ASA does for us shooters. I just think hopefully by next year that they can find a better solution to get all of the shooters on the ranges without having to shoot all in one day. I am sure there will be people that don't agree with me but I am perfectly fine with the Friday and Saturday option if that helps them out.


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

Friday and Saturday option is much better. But it's time to plan ahead. I just happened to have a friend tell me of range assignments showing all of A in one day. Friday is cool but people have to know well in advance in order to get vacation from jobs. Also my registration card did not show all on Saturday, it showed 3:30 on Sunday. That would have been crazy for sure.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

Dean Lawter said:


> Spread it around??? LOOKS MORE LIKE CATERING TO ME. WHY NOT THROW THEIR BUTTS ON THE SAME RANGE AS OPEN PRO. That's what they want to be considered as. Lol. I watched the shoot down in London, Ky. I guess that's why I must suffer. Must appease them! Heck with us who've supported the ASA for many years and the ASA. MIGHT AS WELL STUFF MILK JUGS WITH SOCKS, PUT A DOT ON THEM AND HANG THEM FROM A LIMB. Why the need for an expensive 3d target? Lol.


Really? How is it "catering" if at one event one large groups shoots 40 in one day, and at the next event ANOTHER large group shoots 40 in one day?

Sounds like you just want it your way all the time.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

pointndog said:


> I know BJ posted the time. I have been shooting Open C and I am done for know I think. I can't stand waiting that long to shoot my next arrow and watch how quite a few have no concept of time. Plus 6 to a stake, half of the shots the you have to shoot for the top 12.


I've seen unknown guys take freaking forever at the stake. Stare, binoculars, state, binoculars, stare, scratcher your ass... etc. At least when I shoot know I range it, scope it, and shoot. I don't understand what the big delay would be. Have the time rule enforced or stop whinning. Goes both ways.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

field14 said:


> If I recall the responses here on AT and other places when ASA first announced the start of the KNOWN Distance classes, there was almost a civil war! Mike was told by the die hards that "known yardage 3-D" was an abomination and that 3-D is ALL about judging yardage and on and on and on...and how it was going to be an utter failure and never catch on. Well, those die-hards are now eating crow, aren't they?
> I love the support for the younger archers, too. Mike IS growing the ASA and he IS growing 3-D archery by setting things up so that EVERYONE can shoot. He also obviously sees where the potential for future growth exists. He doesn't let the grass grow beneath his feet; he thinks outside of the box, and is certainly not a stick in the mud with this "it has been this way, blah, blah, blah, and it is ALWAYS going to be this way, no matter what. THAT is what "kills" archery organizations and venues...doing the same ole thing, the same ole way, things taking a downward trend and continuing the same ole, same ole and still expecting different results.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Well said.


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