# questions about lion hunt



## ASG

69side,

The new laws have not been promulgated yet but you are still required to use a fire stick and not a bow.


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## Gerhard

ASG said:


> 69side,
> 
> The new laws have not been promulgated yet but you are still required to use a fire stick and not a bow.


What is the new laws about?

I have been out of the loop for sometime and it will be intresting to hear whats going on.

Thanks


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## INGOZI

The new laws should be very interesting....


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## ASG

Hi guys,

Sorry I've been out of circulation for a while. I was in the East Cape for 10 days visiting hunting outfitters.

There are a number of new laws coming our way. Some good and some bad.
With regard to to bowhunting Lion, Leopard, Elephant, Rhino and Crocodile the bowhunter will need to venture beyond the borders of S.A. This law will not change so book a safari in Zim for the big stuff.

The new T.O.P.S regulations are more important for most of us here on this sight. T.O.P.S stands for Threatened Or Protected Species and this covers not only animals but also birds, fish and plants. 

This is important for Bushkey with his Cycads. 
You will now need a permit to transport, trade or keep the listed species.
As an example I'll use a Black Wildebeest. 

If your grandfather shot a black Wildebeest in 1946 and you have the horns at your house, you will need a TOPS possesion permit for those horns. The same permit applies if you collect a TOPS specie outside of S.A like an Oribi in Zambia etc.
If you are hunting a black Wildebeest, you need to inform the rancher and he also has to apply for a permit so you can take the animal off his farm and transport it to your taxidermist or home.

Check the DEAT website for an up to date list of TOPS species.


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*

It is a pity that ASG are misinformed re lion hunting in RSA and referring potential hunters to our neighbouring country. The new TOPS regulation has made several changes to hunting and conservation issues in our country. It has however never had any impact on lion hunting with a bow. The regulations in the Northwest Province of RSA is as follows:

1. Lions may only be hunted on approved lion hunting conservancies or ranches which has been approved by Dept of Agriculture and Tourism. These approved areas are under strict control so that no canned, drugged or tame lions or unethical practices occur

2. Hunt must be conducted by licenced Outfitter and 2 experienced professional hunters registered in the province who has no restriction on guiding clients on dangerous game.

3. Hunter must supply outfitter of written proof of previous bowhunting experience on big game with referances and pictures of hunts included. The bow specs must also be included. The outfitter now applies to the Director for a special permit for permission to hunt lion with a bow and arrow. This application can take up to 2 weeks to consider. If approved hunter can now hunt lion with a bow. No "firestick" needed.

4. An official of the Dept of Agriculture and tourism may attend the hunt at any time.

Well this is the law as now and Government has agreed via SA Predators Breeders Assosiation that all hunts booked for 2008 for lions will be honoured.

So my advise to all the Robin Hood's out there is to book your lion and lioness hunts for 2008 in RSA. It just might be your last chance for such a hunt at affordable prices.

Feel free to contact me on reliable outfitters for bowhunting of dangerous game.

To all misinformed members: Please do not give advise if you are not sure of the true answers. It puts as all in a bad light and most of all you are misdirecting prospective clients and pushing them even further away from South Africa. Our reputation and Economy cannot afford misleading of clients


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## daretobowhunt

*Thank you !!!!!!!*

Thank you "mwhuntun" ,at last SOMEBODY that know what he\she is talking about,some desk jockeys on here at AT need to get "out" more and get their facts straight before they post,but I guess in the land of the blind, the one eyed guy is King! I can not agree more with "mwhuntun",you sure know what you talking about.


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## Drenalinjunkie8

Some interresting perspectives guys. Does anyone have it in black and white?

Lammie, be careful. Not all might know as much as you but some of these desk jockeys might teach you a thing or two out in the veld.


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## ASG

mwhuntun,

Thanks for clearing up the regulations for the N.W Province. 
Every person I speak to, outfitter, PH or official has a different story and it seems most have no idea so they haven't booked lion hunts for 2008 as they did in the past. The last conversation I had with DEAT they told me that bowhunting cats was NO LONGER an option. Thanks for the update.


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## Philip Moolman

*Lion hunting*

mwhuntun and daretobowhunt,
ASG was just trying to give advice,no need to be this arrogant.If I could I would be more in the veld but maybe you clever guys could learn a few things from us desk jockeys like.A few things make sense to me now...
Philip Moolman


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## daretobowhunt

Drenalinjunkie8, yes maybe somebody could give me a "lesson" in the veld,but not this bunch......

Philip,if you make a that kind of statements for thousands to see ,the least you can do is to get your facts straight, you dont make a living out off hunting, do you??? No, when you go "off line" your day ends, not ours,statements like that are read by potential hunters and WILL turn many potential client away. Arrogant, yes and maybe sarcastic,glad things are clearing up for you,happy I could be off help.


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## Philip Moolman

*Lion hunts*



daretobowhunt said:


> Drenalinjunkie8, yes maybe somebody could give me a "lesson" in the veld,but not this bunch......
> 
> Philip,if you make a that kind of statements for thousands to see ,the least you can do is to get your facts straight, you dont make a living out off hunting, do you??? No, when you go "off line" your day ends, not ours,statements like that are read by potential hunters and WILL turn many potential client away. Arrogant, yes and maybe sarcastic,glad things are clearing up for you,happy I could be off help.


Hoe lank jag jy al boog?Jy is vol van jouself en vinnig om mense uit te kak.Julle twee knape kon die uitkak parade op n veel meer volwasse en smaakvolle manier gedoen het.Lyk ook of julle sukkel om kliente te kry.Ek sal nie by so arrogante PH gaan jag nie.Ek het ook baie ondervinding en het my beroepsjag eksamen in 1989 geslaag.Miskien moet jy jou kinderagtige houding in sy moer stuur.Mens is nooit te oud of te slim om iets nuuts te leer nie.Ek dink julle het swak smaak.Moenie ons forum opdonner nie,almal is/probeer altyd behulpsaam wees.
Groete Philip
Philip


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## ASG

daretobowhunt,

I actually do make a living from hunting. In fact my clients are responsible for roughly 75% of all foreign hunters that visit Africa on an annual basis.

Anyway, that aside I just got the latest from DEAT regarding Lion hunting with archery equipment. My apologies to you and mwhuntun and I've posted the letter below. Unfortunately it is in Afrikaans so our foreign members may not be able to understand it but it's clear for most of us.

Hi Craig

Op die huidige oomblik, tot verdere kennisgewing, is boogjag van leeus toelaatbaar in die TOPS regulasies.

Voorheen was dit verbode, omdat die leeu gelys was as 'n listed large predator. Maar een van die roofdier telersverenigings (ek kan nie die presiese naam onthou van die vereniging nie) het 'n hofsaak aanhangig gemaak teen die Minister oor die 24 maande tydperk wat geteelde leeus vrylopend moet wees voor dit gejag mag word. Die gevolg is dat die Minister die leeu tydelik van die definisie van listed large predators verwyder het, maar nie van die TOPS lys nie. 

Die gevolg is dat die leeu steeds as 'n TOPS spesie gelys is en 'n persoon het steeds 'n TOPS permit nodig om dit te jag, ens, en telers moet steeds registreer as captive breeding facilities. Maar die prohibited activities van regulasies 24 and 26 (8) wat handel oor listed large predators, affekteer nie nie leeu nie.

Ek hoop dit maak sin vir jou?

Groete
Magdel


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## daretobowhunt

Philip Moolman said:


> Hoe lank jag jy al boog?Jy is vol van jouself en vinnig om mense uit te kak.Julle twee knape kon die uitkak parade op n veel meer volwasse en smaakvolle manier gedoen het.Lyk ook of julle sukkel om kliente te kry.Ek sal nie by so arrogante PH gaan jag nie.Ek het ook baie ondervinding en het my beroepsjag eksamen in 1989 geslaag.Miskien moet jy jou kinderagtige houding in sy moer stuur.Mens is nooit te oud of te slim om iets nuuts te leer nie.Ek dink julle het swak smaak.Moenie ons forum opdonner nie,almal is/probeer altyd behulpsaam wees.
> Groete Philip
> Philip


Jammer Oom,sal nie wee nie, belowe.


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## Bushkey

daretobowhunt said:


> Drenalinjunkie8, yes maybe somebody could give me a "lesson" in the veld,but not this bunch......


Wel, so gese so gedaan. Dan moet ons seker maar ons boe op hang en dit vir die ouens los wat kan:dontknow:


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## Philip Moolman

*Leeujag*

Jammer Oom,sal nie wee nie, belowe.

Jy is vergewe ou seun,moet net nie dat dit weer gebeur nie.Vir my is dit befok om eerder met almal vriende te wees. Lammie ek is al 20 jaar betrokke by boogjag en leer elke dag iets,partymaal van ouens wat nuut in die sport is.
Groete oom Philip


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## 69side

I'm following guys, but can not follow the language change.
I have purchased a hunt and I still have questions.
If anyone would like to help me out with my specific situation 
please send me an email and I will give you the details.

Thank you :darkbeer:


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## Bushkey

69side said:


> I'm following guys, but can not follow the language change.
> I have purchased a hunt and I still have questions.
> If anyone would like to help me out with my specific situation
> please send me an email and I will give you the details.
> 
> Thank you :darkbeer:


Yes I am sorry about that. We have a bit of a difference of opinion regarding the regulations and specifics of Lion hunting. The best guys to advice you would be Daretobowhunt and the dude just above him Mwhuntun.


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## Bushkey

mwhuntun said:


> It is a pity that ASG are misinformed re lion hunting in RSA and referring potential hunters to our neighbouring country. The new TOPS regulation has made several changes to hunting and conservation issues in our country. It has however never had any impact on lion hunting with a bow. The regulations in the Northwest Province of RSA is as follows:
> 
> 1. Lions may only be hunted on approved lion hunting conservancies or ranches which has been approved by Dept of Agriculture and Tourism. These approved areas are under strict control so that no canned, drugged or tame lions or unethical practices occur
> 
> 2. Hunt must be conducted by licenced Outfitter and 2 experienced professional hunters registered in the province who has no restriction on guiding clients on dangerous game.
> 
> 3. Hunter must supply outfitter of written proof of previous bowhunting experience on big game with referances and pictures of hunts included. The bow specs must also be included. The outfitter now applies to the Director for a special permit for permission to hunt lion with a bow and arrow. This application can take up to 2 weeks to consider. If approved hunter can now hunt lion with a bow. No "firestick" needed.
> 
> 4. An official of the Dept of Agriculture and tourism may attend the hunt at any time.
> 
> Well this is the law as now and Government has agreed via SA Predators Breeders Assosiation that all hunts booked for 2008 for lions will be honoured.
> 
> So my advise to all the Robin Hood's out there is to book your lion and lioness hunts for 2008 in RSA. It just might be your last chance for such a hunt at affordable prices.
> 
> Feel free to contact me on reliable outfitters for bowhunting of dangerous game.
> 
> To all misinformed members: Please do not give advise if you are not sure of the true answers. It puts as all in a bad light and most of all you are misdirecting prospective clients and pushing them even further away from South Africa. Our reputation and Economy cannot afford misleading of clients


Don't you please want to fill in your personal detail on your profile. I like to know who I am talking to. Thanks.


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## 69side

Profile should be complete


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## husky

*oom Philip*

Dit is presies wat ek probeer verhoed het 'n paar weke terug. Ek wil ook nie inmeng met persoonlike dinge nie. :zipie site is die enigste manier waarmee ek kontak het met almal en inligting kry vir Boogjag:archery:.
Komaan Ouens dis soos "AFRIKAANS "(praat die taal!!)
Julle is my enigste "Pelle" :wink:en om sulke "stront"(argumenteer) voor almal help nie. Om mekaar name te noem en te kriteseer, Julle maak net julle eie name sleg(gat)t::icon_1_lol:t: en ons veloor besigheid(VSA):frusty:. Ek sê weer as julle persoonlik met mekaar probleme het gaan sort dit uit. Ek wil niks daarvan weet nie.

So ver dit die leeu hunt aan gaan......... Baie dankie!!:wink: Ek was nogals nuuskurig om te weet wat aan gaan.

Oom philip ek het P.M gestuur. Laat weet as jy hom gekry het.

Los julle ouens met vrede en iets om aan te dink.!!!

PS ..... VIR VOLK EN VADERLAND!!
(Moenie laat ek poep nie!)

George:RockOn::RockOn::grouphug:


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*

Thank you ASG for the apology on bowhunting on lions. I accept it. Thank you "daretobowhunt" for your support. I got feedback on your first class outfit and would like do hunt with you someday. For the rest of the crowd:
"Relax guys, get a life or wife!" It is not so serious that fellow hunters need to swear and chit on each other. Keep the language in English and let our international members "hear" what we are talking about. I am a new member to this site but if telling the facts leads to "old women chattering" I would rather spend my time watching Desperate Housewives and stay off the site. I do not see such talk on the Canadian sites. Maybe they are more humble hunters with smaller egos

To 69side. You can contact the www.daretobowhunt.co.za team to give you full answers to your lion hunt questions for they have the know how. I have called many referances before making this statement! Sorry on behalf of our South African Forum who cutted you out of your question and started a new argument of who is the most experienced bowhunter!! Good luck. They are all actually good guys !


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## INGOZI

mwhuntun

Could you please tell us if you are perhaps one Randy Westdraadt? Lammies previous partner in Hunters Unlimited? Just wondering, as we can't see any of your details on your profile as you have left everything blank. I'm sure the rest of the guys on here would like to know who they are "talking" to and who all the parties involved are. You don't have anything to hide do you?

All the best guys.

Engee Potgieter


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## mwhuntun

*Ingozi*

Hi Engee. My name is Freddie. I have heard a lot about you and read some of your articles in the Bowhunter. Real good stuff. Why the aggressive tone? Am I missing something here? I just told a fellow hunter that bowhunting is legal on lions! Why the big issue of who's who? I know this because I have just hunted a lion a few weeks ago with a bow. I know Randy Westraadt but he is no bowhunter and he referred me to your brother Lammie and I have hunted with him . Great guy. Please do not feel threatened by someone who wants to put facts on the table. Speaking about something to hide. While checking references I even wanted to contact you regarding a hunt. After talks with all 9 provinces in RSA and with PHASA no one could give me any info on you as a registered professional hunter or guide. Not one person? Are you in fact a Registered PH and if so in which provinces?. Doing a PH school does not make you a registered PH automatically. Please inform the forum then of your current status as PH. Please do not attack people if there is no issue. Fight your personal fights in the right rings and not on AT. Just chill out bro. We are a hunting community. No woder it is so easy for ANTI HUNTERS to kick our asses because no one wants to be honest and the ego are to big for this site. Well after 3 posting (trying to help) I have decided it is not worth my time. Can the owner of this site please get control over the SA forum for it is not working. It could be a great site if members have the same mission and that is to promote bowhunting and Archery. Not any other bull****!! Well Engee, anything else you want to know before I leave the site??


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## Karoojager

Mwhuntun,

Thank you for the informative legal position of lion hunt, this was the right way under the motto " archers / hunters help archers / hunters ".
But all what you wrote later is not the fine art to communicate with other people here in AT. Why do you seed poison here ? If you have any problem with a user of this forum, please use the private mail communication.
You private attacks here in public harms similarly like desinformation of lion hunt.

Only my 2 cent as a non S.A. resident and enthusiastic South Africa Forum user .


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## mwhuntun

*Karoojager*

Best Sir, You are totally right. We must use private lines for personal stuff. Ingozi should know that as well being a senior member with 2700+ postings. I wish him and you all at AT a good hunting season:embara:


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## Drenalinjunkie8

Freddie,

Didn't Redge set up a bow for you? I know he was busy tuning a 82nd for a client that was going on a lion hunt. Was it you perhaps?

As for the aggressive tone. Have a look at the forum and see who made the first aggressive comments. 

Also stay logged on. We have had some awesome topics in the past and we ALL have learnt a great deal. Sometimes their is a bit of fireworks but it is all part of the forum. 

Please post info and pictures about your lion hunt as all of us would love to hear about it.

Thanks


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## INGOZI

Talk about an aggressive tone? You should read your post again Freddie, seeing as you ignored Buskey when asked who you were I thought I might ask as well. I know "of you" as well, as I understand it both Lammie and Randy have hunted many an animal on your property in the North West Province if I'm correct? You must surely know them very well by now as I'm referring back to some three years. Regarding Lion hunting I also believe that you and one Randy are in the same bed?

But anyway, I should probably also shut up as it seems that if one dares question or talk to one of you big guys you get attacked on all sides. So let us know when you big kahoonas are done on this site then we mere mortalls can get back to our old woman chattering.

Ps: I can't think why you would want to contact me for to set up a hunt as I have stated in writing before that I no longer guide clients and only hunt for myself (I also want to make it clear again as you are new here that Lammie and I have nothing to do with each other, hunting or otherwise). Anyway, you have Lammies number, no use in fiddeling around with us small fry.

All the best Freddie of the Kalahari.

Engee Potgieter

PSS: Guys please DO NOT post any questions to these big boys as you might also get your head bitten off, and for heavens sake don't say anything about hunting of canned or freeroaming lions either!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.... Ha ha.


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## mwhuntun

*Ingozi*

I only asked about your status as PH, for on your full profile you state that your occupation as ; *PROFESSIONAL HUNTER AND GUIDE*. This is not a date site so I thought it good not to give to much info on myself :wink:
I will bury all my poisen arrows now and wish you all well

Freddie from Potch

PS> What is a kahoona Engee. Maybe you can writ a test report on one??

To Bushkey. I am busy writing an article on the hunt of my lion and hope to get in published in some hunting magazine.


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## Bushkey

mwhuntun said:


> To Bushkey. I am busy writing an article on the hunt of my lion and hope to get in published in some hunting magazine.


Good, I am looking forward to it. 

Lets start over. Welcome here by us, I know you are going to enjoy it. You are going to have to excuse us if we seem on the offensive. This is a very laid back forum started by South African AT'ers for South African AT'ers. We *****foot around each other and enjoy each others company. If we want to bicker we go somewhere els. If we get questions from interested hunters from abroad we answer as best we know how. So it is very strange if some one with his first post jumps in and start dishing out. This is why we like to have profiles filled out. We have had in the past similar happenings where people just fall in and out making a big stink never to be heard of again. But so be it. I don't think I would like to date you:wink:


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## INGOZI

Freddie

...and I just wanted to know who you were, but anyway. Sorry I'll change the profile info asap, I last filled it in back in 2005. I agree this is no dating service but if you are making as strong comments as you are I'm sure the other guys would like to know who they are talking to, as I'm sure somebody as highly regarded as you and your friends have nothing to hide. (Ps: I'm engaged to a beautifull girl if, but no offence taken, you might want to point your internet browser to a site like Facebook that has quite the number of guy-on-guy groups as this is a stricktly archery and bowhunting related site).

As for me being an active PH, if you are the one and same Freddie that Randy knows (as you also say that you know him) then I will say again that I do not wish to freelance for you or do a bowhunting layout on your property. You see, according to Randy you had begged him for me to come and work for you and even Randy had said, and I quote, "you'll never get paid by the man, don't even think of going to freelance or work for him permanently". But hey, that is probably just a misunderstanding.

I look forward to reading some of your work, as would all the other on here as I was not aware that Lion hunting was still allowed and that there was something as free roaming lions in SA, uninformed I was always under the immpression that all lions in SA that are hunted are cage reared and most hunting for them being classified as canned. But I'm glad we now have such a well respected PH/Outfitter/Writer as yourself to clear things up for us.

Thanks for the update, keep us informed.


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## Drenalinjunkie8

Or drugged like the tjop that wrote to the bowhunter about his lion hunt. The poor bugger didn't see the signs that his lion was drugged to hell and gone. 

Sorry to say but free roaming lions do not exist in this country anymore. 

Just a pity would love to see our own version of man eaters of Tsavo here.... maybe our own Man Eaters of Diepsloot/Soweto......:wink::wink::wink:

Personally I would have loved to shoot a lion in the 1800's for the challenge of it. Back then they where still "free roaming" and as witty as hell. They sure had a big chance of killing you should you screw up. 

We keep on hearing and reading about canned lion hunting in this country which I think is disturbing. In now way is this hunting it is purely shooting an animal which might have been raised by humans, or drugged beyond it's sences to fend for it self.

In this day and age there can be to many complications and politics involved with doing so. I would rather leave it and not risk giving hunting a further bad name. 

Freddie as for you. I still look forward to reading your article. If you where able to find a lion that was not "canned" nor drugged then I'm happy for you. Only you will know whether it was done in a "fair game" way or not.


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## Philip Moolman

*Canned lions*

Engee,
I don't think Freddie will tell us his real name.Maybe something like Freddy M99 van Schalkwyk.
Philip Moolman
0828807867
013-7955241
[email protected]


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## normbates1

Let me know if I should start a new thread on this subject, but since it has already been brought up, I thought I would ask. Though I was already warned about bringing up the subject, I would like to know the “real” story with Lion hunting in SA. It’s hard to get a straight story on the internet. So here are my questions, are free range Lions available in SA? I do consider an animal free range if they reside on several thousand hectares even if it is fenced. Am I wrong with that assumption? The bottom line is that I’d like to go after Lion, but only in an ethical fair chase way. Otherwise, I need to win the lottery and travel to Tanzania.

Thanks,
Norm


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## Philip Moolman

*Lion hunting is SA*



normbates1 said:


> Let me know if I should start a new thread on this subject, but since it has already been brought up, I thought I would ask. Though I was already warned about bringing up the subject, I would like to know the “real” story with Lion hunting in SA. It’s hard to get a straight story on the internet. So here are my questions, are free range Lions available in SA? I do consider an animal free range if they reside on several thousand hectares even if it is fenced. Am I wrong with that assumption? The bottom line is that I’d like to go after Lion, but only in an ethical fair chase way. Otherwise, I need to win the lottery and travel to Tanzania.
> 
> Thanks,
> Norm


Norm,
The lions are breed in captivity.When a client wants a lion,they dart it and take it to a fairly small camp where it is then shot(not hunted).I have heard about a wellknown PH and owner of a bowhunting school that also drug the animals prior to shooting them.They also bait the lions and shoot them at night.Tremendously ethical!There are some fairly large farms too ,but I have never heard about an ethical lion hunt in SA.Guys like ASG(Craig) , Engee and Lammie would know better.That is what I have heard from reliable sources and seen on local hunting DVD's.SORRY NOT FOR ME!
Philip


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## 69side

from my research, I agree with Phiip. This is something that I do NOT care to do. Just my opinion, I have no experence.

I would like thanks all of you from SA for the help, its nice to know that
hunters around the world are willing to help each other.


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*

Let me help out again. Lion hunting in RSA is controversial because of bad conduct and slack regulation policies of the past. There were cases of drugged lion, hunting in very small camps etc. 3 Years back government and SA Predators Ass dicided that strict policies and control needs to be in place. Yes captive bred lions are introduced in approved hunting area for hunting. The smallest being 1000 ha (2470Acre) and some areas up to 15 000 ha (37000 acres). Lion has to be released 90 days Free State, 4 days (NWP) before a hunt. A Local Conservation Officer must attend release. The area must be natural habitat and approved to strict regulations. Hunting may only take place in this approved area. Now the LAW and not I state as follows: No hunt may take place if not escorted by 2 NW PH's. No baiting or luring may take place. No hunting at night may take place. The hunter must sign a statement before the hunt stating that he is aware of the followig: 1. Lion is raised in captivity 2. Lion is a fenced area no smaller than 1000 ha 3. Lion is not free ranging and has been released for hunting. Without this signed statement no hunt can start ot trophy be exported. No hunt may take place from a vehicle. No tame lions may be hunted. If animal indicates any reaction to , or if the animal is affected by the drugs used for capture it may not be hunted. Now the catch guys: A Nature Conservation Officer must attend this hunt!!. 

Phillip are you claiming through your statements that these officials are corrupt and bribe not to point out all these illigal actions that you made us aware of? Are you stating that hundreds of visiting hunters are so ignorent or stupid not to see drugged lions or illegal activities? You can maybe fool some hunters but not all. The visiting hunters do a hell of a lot of research before booking hunts and they are extremely aware of issues in Africa and RSA

Have you ever attended such a hunt. Are you against buying other animals for your game ranch for hunting. I see there are some big game auction in your area for rhino, buffs, hippo and plains game. Do you protest against buying trophy animalsfor a ranch. Why then think differant on lion. 

These lions are self sustainable. (Yes remember even your house cat can stil catch a wild bird or veld mice). Lion do cath waterbuck, gmsbuck, wildebeest while released in hunting areas. 

Please do not get me wrong. There is bad people in every type of hunting. The lion breeders decided to cut out to rotten teeth and now they can market and conduct good, legal hunting. 

Any further info can be obtained from Dept of Agriculture, Conservation and Enviroment (Tel) + 27 53 927 6196 (MR DIOLE) or +27 51 4009527 MR BLOM.

To normbates1. Try it out. Remember you are in control of the trigger and if you do not like a hunt or situation do not pull the trigger. In RSA you only pay for the trophy after it has been killed. 

Remember anti hunters are not against canned/ unethical etc hunting. They are against *ALL* hunting and killing, be it with bow, rifle, small camp, free ranging concession. They are against killing. Us hunters should support all legal hunting all over the world. If you dont like hunting lions in RSA or I dont like hunting white tail in South Texas then dont do it. But dont condemn those who do it. Ethics is a personal issue you have to live with. Some people considre hunting at waterhole and on feed as unethical. For most bowhunters it is the rule. But why condemn it. Live and let live. No matter which method we are using, a the end of the day an animal will be dead and that is what the anti hunters/greenies hate. Lets fight against and not for them. 
Please read this with an open mind ad dont let egos and issues flame up against these facts.


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## Drenalinjunkie8

mwhuntin,

Thanks for the response. Very interresting what you wrote there. One thing is for sure the greenies are trying to ban all hunting. What the idiots dont realise is that with no hunting the game have no value. Nature conservations can only generate a certain amount towards conservation whereas with hunting it generates hundreds of millions which in turn goes back into the conservation of the animals. In turn if the animals are of no value to the farmer why should he not replace them with cattle to sustain an income.


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## Philip Moolman

*Lion Hunting*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me help out again. Lion hunting in RSA is controversial because of bad conduct and slack regulation policies of the past. There were cases of drugged lion, hunting in very small camps etc. 3 Years back government and SA Predators Ass dicided that strict policies and control needs to be in place. Yes captive bred lions are introduced in approved hunting area for hunting. The smallest being 1000 ha (2470Acre) and some areas up to 15 000 ha (37000 acres). Lion has to be released 90 days Free State, 4 days (NWP) before a hunt. A Local Conservation Officer must attend release. The area must be natural habitat and approved to strict regulations. Hunting may only take place in this approved area. Now the LAW and not I state as follows: No hunt may take place if not escorted by 2 NW PH's. No baiting or luring may take place. No hunting at night may take place. The hunter must sign a statement before the hunt stating that he is aware of the followig: 1. Lion is raised in captivity 2. Lion is a fenced area no smaller than 1000 ha 3. Lion is not free ranging and has been released for hunting. Without this signed statement no hunt can start ot trophy be exported. No hunt may take place from a vehicle. No tame lions may be hunted. If animal indicates any reaction to , or if the animal is affected by the drugs used for capture it may not be hunted. Now the catch guys: A Nature Conservation Officer must attend this hunt!!. 

mwhuntun,
I certainly do not have any problems with the regulations you have stated.I have seen some DVD's and heard some terrifying stories from VERY VERY reliable people.Have you heard the story(could be a lie)of an overseas hunter that wanted to shoot a leopard.The hunter lost his legs and was hunting from a wheelchair.The PH shot and froze the leopard.very early the following morning they set up the leopard ,went to fetch the hunter.Apparently one of his trackers pulled the leopard from the cliff as the hunter shot.Obviously he could not follow the spoor with his wheelchair and a few hours later they brought back his leopard(off course the PH had to shoot a backup shot to explain the second rifle wound).I sincerely hope that this is a bull**** story.

mwhuntun,Please do not get me wrong.I defenitely want you guys to get overseas clients to hunt lions.Perhaps this thread could serve as an eye opener to hunters and our Minister van Schalkwyk.He is crippling the hunting industry with his ignorence.I really don't know how to get this Minister on the tar road .
Philip Moolman


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## normbates1

Thanks guys for all of the information. As I mentioned before, it is very hard to find out exactly what is true and what is not. I was told of the frozen leopard story when I was last in SA on a trip. Like any other sport, the few always bring down the many. Except that we already have our backs against the wall with ill informed anti-hunting groups. 

When ethical hunting is concerned, each of us has to make our own choices. Either through the equipment that we use, to methods that we employ. That’s a whole new thread in itself. 

But I do think that forums like this are exactly what we need to keep our sport alive. People whom refuse to even hear the other side of a story and only lash out with those that do not agree with them, are doing the work of the anti-hunting groups. So please bear with me if I ask seemingly obvious or naive questions. 

Rock on,
Norm


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*

Minister Kortbroek is driving in reverse on a gravel road with the greenies showing direction. Maybe our next President Zuma will appoint someone who understands conservation through utilization.


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## ASG

Philip,

I've also heard the story of the leopard but can't reliably confirm that it was true.

However, the best one I heard that was reliably confirmed is regarding a Lion.

This PH had an American client who was after a black maned lion and after phoning around he eventually got one on a farm somewhere. The breeder sent photos of this tremendous animal which were then sent to the client.

A safari was booked and this black maned lion was hunted.

Shortly afterward the PH got a call from his taxidermist to inform him that the lion's mane had been dyed black and that the colouring had washed out during the process. 

The poor PH then had to inform the client back in the states that they had been taken by an unethical operator and that a huge sum of money was paid to a fraudster.


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*

The dyed lion story is true. The SA Predators Ass named the person. It was actually not the outfitter or PH fraud, but the landowner selling it. The ph was just as surpized as the client. It is a landowner near Klerksdorp. But is shows you to deal with reputable people. The landowner is well known for his tricks. Beware


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## Drenalinjunkie8

It's like marrying a white girl only to find out after she showered that she is an eish!!!!:zip::wink:


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## Bushkey

I would have given my front teeth to have seen the commotion at the doggy parlor where the landowner had the Lion to dye it's mane. :laugh:

Wash and dye please.


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## mwhuntun

That is probably where Robbie saw the "leeuloop":secret:


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## ASG

LOL!

Ja manne. It's a shame that there will always be some unethical guy to screw it up for the rest. But on the other hand, it's not only the hunting industry but every line of business you can think of.


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## Landrover

mwhuntun said:


> PS> What is a kahoona Engee. Maybe you can writ a test report on one??


I was wondering the same thing??? 


Drenalinjunkie8 said:


> Just a pity would love to see our own version of man eaters of Tsavo here.... maybe our own Man Eaters of Diepsloot/Soweto......:wink::wink::wink:


You loss me on that one?????? Totally confused!


mwhuntun said:


> Remember anti hunters are not against canned/ unethical etc hunting. They are against *ALL* hunting and killing, be it with bow, rifle, small camp, free ranging concession. They are against killing. Us hunters should support all legal hunting all over the world. If you dont like hunting lions in RSA or I dont like hunting white tail in South Texas then dont do it.


Very true statement! They want all of us sent to the taxidermist more than the animals.


Drenalinjunkie8 said:


> It's like marrying a white girl only to find out after she showered that she is an eish!!!!:zip::wink:


Once again, lost me!!! What the heck is a eish?


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## Karoojager

ASG said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Sorry I've been out of circulation for a while. I was in the East Cape for 10 days visiting hunting outfitters.
> 
> There are a number of new laws coming our way. Some good and some bad.
> With regard to to bowhunting Lion, Leopard, Elephant, Rhino and Crocodile the bowhunter will need to venture beyond the borders of S.A. This law will not change so book a safari in Zim for the big stuff.
> 
> The new T.O.P.S regulations are more important for most of us here on this sight. T.O.P.S stands for Threatened Or Protected Species and this covers not only animals but also birds, fish and plants.
> 
> This is important for Bushkey with his Cycads.
> You will now need a permit to transport, trade or keep the listed species.
> As an example I'll use a Black Wildebeest.
> 
> If your grandfather shot a black Wildebeest in 1946 and you have the horns at your house, you will need a TOPS possesion permit for those horns. The same permit applies if you collect a TOPS specie outside of S.A like an Oribi in Zambia etc.
> If you are hunting a black Wildebeest, you need to inform the rancher and he also has to apply for a permit so you can take the animal off his farm and transport it to your taxidermist or home.
> 
> Check the DEAT website for an up to date list of TOPS species.



Craig,

The TOPS possesion permit gives me some questions, maybe you can help.

Last year my friend ordered and bought 13 Black Wildebeests for us, two of them I paid for my self. My friend have not a hunting farm only a private hunting area on his milk farm. In maybe two years I would hunt one of my Black Wildebeest. Is it now impossible to give the trophy ( shoulder mount ) to a taxidermy and later at home without this TOPS possesion permit ?


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## INGOZI

Interesting to note that although there are many that say that Lion hunting in South Africa is legal and fair, it surely makes one wonder why Roland Ward no longer accepts any Lion entries that come from South Africa but do accept those from all the other African countries....


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## Landrover

INGOZI said:


> Interesting to note that although there are many that say that Lion hunting in South Africa is legal and fair, it surely makes one wonder why Roland Ward no longer accepts any Lion entries that come from South Africa but do accept those from all the other African countries....


You have a PM from me!


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## Drenalinjunkie8

Landrover said:


> I was wondering the same thing???
> 
> You loss me on that one?????? Totally confused!
> 
> Very true statement! They want all of us sent to the taxidermist more than the animals.
> 
> Once again, lost me!!! What the heck is a eish?


Landrover,

Sorry that you missed out but only South Africans will understand what I'm saying......


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## ASG

Frank,

You are quite correct sir. If you would like to hunt your Black wildebeest you will now need a TOPS permit to take it out of the country.

The farmer must apply for a permit to keep these animals on his property and for you to hunt the animal and for it to be transported to the taxidermist.

The taxidermist also needs a permit for transportation and export of the trophy to Germany.

I'm not sure if you as a foreigner will need to have a permit to keep it back home in Germany.

At the moment I'm waiting for my possesion permits for all the elephant ivory items I have at home. You even need one for a piano if it has ivory keys.


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*



INGOZI said:


> Interesting to note that although there are many that say that Lion hunting in South Africa is legal and fair, it surely makes one wonder why Roland Ward no longer accepts any Lion entries that come from South Africa but do accept those from all the other African countries....


Are you saying that lion hunting is not legal in RSA.? Strange that government issues permits for lion huntsin RSA. Why is it more fair for you to shoot wildebeest or kudu in a game fence area than for me to shoot a lion in a game fence area? Or do you beleive that one animal has more right to live than another. Conservation is utilization of all species and not only of those you wish to hunt or who do not feature in a Walt Disney movie. SCI features lion in RSA for there record books. Rowland Ward should maybe then consider that all animals from RSA to be excluded from the book for it is hunted under same condition as the lions! Game fences are here to stay. Just for interest, Rowland Ward was never ment to be a record book for bragging about trophies. It was put together as a scientific referance book where best speciments of a specie could be found.


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## Karoojager

mwhuntun,

what is you intention that you stir every time here in kak ?
Seems you manners to other people are not the best.
Here in AT is not the right place for a private fight.:zip:


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*



Karoojager said:


> mwhuntun,
> 
> what is you intention that you stir every time here in kak ?
> Seems you manners to other people are not the best.
> Here in AT is not the right place for a private fight.:zip:


So only others can stir kak.? Sorry I did not know! Seems to me at SA Forum the truth is kak. Especially if the senoir members statements are queried!!Cant people face facts/ reality or do you guys build your reputation on rumours.


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## INGOZI

If Lion hunting in South Africa was as legal and fair as hunting say, Wildebeest, then there would surely not be any reason for you to vehemently defend it now would there Freddie???:suspiciou You can write as many pro-lion-hunting declarations as you like but any person with half a mind knows that there is no such thing as "free & fair" Lion hunting in South Africa. Just look back at the history that goes with your Lion hunting heritage, not something to be very proud of now is it?

I am a very proud hunter and will fight for my, and others right to hunt, but when it comes to shooting "released" cage reared Lions I'm with Kortbroekukey:. That's just not cricket.... But whatever floats your boat or fills your bank account...


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## Landrover

INGOZI;there is no such thing as "free & fair" Lion hunting in South Africa. Just look back at the history that goes with your Lion hunting heritage said:


> Wow, it sounds JUST like whitetail hunting on HIGH FENCE ranches in South Texas! Lots of breeding bucks and alot of drama and division among outdoorsman. Not my cup of tea either but I had no idea the "lions" where pen raised? Sounds down right tragic!!!


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## INGOZI

What's worse Landrover is that some Outfitters will even email you a picture of your Lion before the hunt, you can go so far as "pick" one out of a series of photos taken of the potential Lions that can be hunted while they are caged. Then they "release" it so you can hunt it, the time of release depends on what Goverment Rules at the time is, or when the Outfitter/Owner feels it is nessicary. They dont want the Lion to escape the property as they will lose quite a lot of money so it is nothing strange to have some people "release" the Lion ON THE MORNING OF THE HUNT and OFTEN HIGHLY DRUGGED! Now I'm not saying what people should do, BUT THAT IS NOT MY KIND OF HUNTING.


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*



INGOZI said:


> If Lion hunting in South Africa was as legal and fair as hunting say, Wildebeest, then there would surely not be any reason for you to vehemently defend it now would there Freddie???:suspiciou You can write as many pro-lion-hunting declarations as you like but any person with half a mind knows that there is no such thing as "free & fair" Lion hunting in South Africa. Just look back at the history that goes with your Lion hunting heritage, not something to be very proud of now is it?
> 
> I am a very proud hunter and will fight for my, and others right to hunt, but when it comes to shooting "released" cage reared Lions I'm with Kortbroekukey:. That's just not cricket.... But whatever floats your boat or fills your bank account...


I am actually trying to defend your lack of knowledge. The new TOPS law makes lion hunting as is, legal and not me. Government laws states in this case what they see as fair. Government attends releasing of lions. With my half a mind I have never stated free ranging lions. I am stating that it is legal. Ethics is your own personal choice you have to live with. I even heard of some well known hunter shooting cape grysbok at night with a bow and claims it ethical. Legal I dont know but if he lives with it I will not condemn him! Whatever floats his boat:wink: I am stepping of this issue now for no one is as blind as those who do not want to see.


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## INGOZI

Since your first posts on here you have tried to change everybodies mind as to what you and your buddies see as right and fair. We have gotten on very well without your rantings and I'm certain that everybody is by now sick of you flogging the same dead horse. If you feel that hunting Lion in SA is fair then continue to do so, just do not try and change everybodies perspective on the idea on this site. As I have said before, if Lion hunting and the Ph's and Outfitters that support and condone it was all above board, then why in the hell is there such a stigma surrounding it???? Why is every single anti hunting organisation trying to stop it???? Why is Lion hunting under the magnifying glass???? Why has Lion hunting in SA been in the spotlight on Carte Blanche????

Stop wasting our time Freddie... If you want to canvass for potential clients then do so, just stop boring us with your pro Lion hunting rantings.

Who shot the Cape Grysbok at night with a bow and how is that relevant to canned Lion hunting?


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## Landrover

mwhuntun said:


> I am stating that it is legal. Ethics is your own personal choice you have to live with. no one is as blind as those who do not want to see.


Legal does not = ETHICS......so sad the "government" officials are morons like over here! 


INGOZI said:


> if Lion hunting and the Ph's and Outfitters that support and condone it was all above board, then why in the hell is there such a stigma surrounding it???? Why is every single anti hunting organisation trying to stop it???? Why is Lion hunting under the magnifying glass???? Why has Lion hunting in SA been in the spotlight on Carte Blanche????


Once again, giving ALL hunters a bad name! Shameful that we can be our own worst enemies just because some stuffed suit says it is legal. It is truly all about the mighty dollar or should I say "rand"!!! :sad:


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## INGOZI

Now that is the truth Landrover, $$ talks.

Fact, all Lions in SA that are hunted are R-E-L-E-A-S-E-D Lions that were raised in C-A-P-T-V-I-T-Y, end of story. If someone wants to hunt such an animal with the type of people that condone such hunting, then it is fine by me, to each his own. But I feel that the practise is an utter disgrace and the people involved in it are unethical, shameless individuals just out to make money before the whole practise is stopped by law.

Here is an example, take a picture of a free roaming adult male Lion that was hunted in Tanzania and take a pic of a South African Lion, which one looks like the unscarred, fat, cage fed Lion with a hairdo so immpressive and spotless that it looks as though the Lion had just stepped out of the Hair Salon... Now does that seem right?


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*



INGOZI said:


> Now that is the truth Landrover, $$ talks.
> 
> Fact, all Lions in SA that are hunted are R-E-L-E-A-S-E-D Lions that were raised in C-A-P-T-V-I-T-Y, end of story. If someone wants to hunt such an animal with the type of people that condone such hunting, then it is fine by me, to each his own. But I feel that the practise is an utter disgrace and the people involved in it are unethical, shameless individuals just out to make money before the whole practise is stopped by law.
> 
> Here is an example, take a picture of a free roaming adult male Lion that was hunted in Tanzania and take a pic of a South African Lion, which one looks like the unscarred, fat, cage fed Lion with a hairdo so immpressive and spotless that it looks as though the Lion had just stepped out of the Hair Salon... Now does that seem right?


Now you are getting it right engee! The only free ranging animals in RSA are the following: Kudu in some areas, springbuck, tiny 10 species, rhebuck/reedbuck, warthog, bushpigs, limited Eland and some smaller predators. All the rest you buy and throw in your pen/game fence area. Anyone know about some free ranging wildebeest hunts in RSA available? Engee remember your quote about anti hunters want to stop all lion hunting-- It should not come to surprise that these same people want to stop all hunting including the holy grail of bowhunting as well!
Please put some Ron Thompson books on your reading list and then talk about game management and utilization again.
To Landrover. It is true Legal is not = to Ethics. That is why I will never shoot animals from a hide at water or from a feeding spot. If I want to test my shooting skill I shoot at paper targets and not at feeding/drinking anim:thumbs_upals.
I hope you and Ingozi feel the same on such unethical hunting??? practises!


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## INGOZI

This thread is going south, fast...

One simply cannot compare the Lion hunting debacle to all fenced hunting in this country, but as I have stated, I have said enough, you feel that it is ok, I think it is not. Let's sit back and see what gets banned/stopped first, Lion hunting or regular high fenced antelope hunting.

I wash my hands...


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## ASG

Mmmm....

From what I remember, fair chase hunting is hunting an animal in an environment where that animal can sustain itself without impediment throughout its entire life cycle. 
Some species require an area of only a few hectares to be self sustaining and others require huge areas.


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*



ASG said:


> Mmmm....
> 
> From what I remember, fair chase hunting is hunting an animal in an environment where that animal can sustain itself without impediment throughout its entire life cycle.
> Some species require an area of only a few hectares to be self sustaining and others require huge areas.


At last someone with sense. That is true and I agree. Lions in fenced areas do catch their own game, breed with females and even raise their cubs on these ranches in a 2000 ha natural habitat. Fair chase is that the animal also has a fair chance to evade the hunter which is not the case with shooting from a blind at water and feeding points. The SA Predators Ass has gone a long way to clean up the canned hunting issue and maybe you must run an article in your mag on it. No baiting is allowed even when hunting lions with a bow and if you know someone who does it please report it to officials for it is illegal. 

To Ingozi. To stop lion hunting in RSA is just the first dimino to fall. Next will be rhinos then sables etc, (Rifle or Bow). To stop hunting is the misson! So rather support all legal activities (dont have to participate if it is against your ethics) but live and let live. Myself and others I can influence will do the same. Knowledge of something , even though you are not partaking, enpowers you. At the end of the day we all just want the privilage to hunt. 
Peace to you all


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## Philip Moolman

*Ethical/Unethical Bowhunting*



mwhuntun said:


> Now you are getting it right engee! The only free ranging animals in RSA are the following: Kudu in some areas, springbuck, tiny 10 species, rhebuck/reedbuck, warthog, bushpigs, limited Eland and some smaller predators. All the rest you buy and throw in your pen/game fence area. Anyone know about some free ranging wildebeest hunts in RSA available? Engee remember your quote about anti hunters want to stop all lion hunting-- It should not come to surprise that these same people want to stop all hunting including the holy grail of bowhunting as well!
> Please put some Ron Thompson books on your reading list and then talk about game management and utilization again.
> To Landrover. It is true Legal is not = to Ethics. That is why I will never shoot animals from a hide at water or from a feeding spot. If I want to test my shooting skill I shoot at paper targets and not at feeding/drinking anim:thumbs_upals.
> I hope you and Ingozi feel the same on such unethical hunting??? practises!


Freddie I also like to walk and stalk while bowhunting,even though my success rate is not 100%.I get much more satisfaction this way,but unfortuneatly it is not allowed on most farms.
Have you been in a blind?I certainly think so!You would also know that you are not guaranteed to shoot an animal due to various circumstances(wind,smell,sound etc.)while sitting in a blind.Out of a treestand it is a much different scenario as well.
If I have to rate killing an animal I would give it a 0 out of ten.Many times I did not shoot from the blind and just studied the animal(once I watched a very shootable Warthog male for 15 minutes licking his balls like a dog).Once a tracker almost bliksemed me when I left a 53 inch Kudu in the old Bophutatswana.I stalked him within 15 yrds and that to me was a magnificent hunt(with my 9,3x62)
Is there really a challenge with a scoped rifle, even not from a vehicle?
Bottom line is you cannot compare rifle hunting with bow hunting in any way.Totally different ballistic projectiles and hunters.
I do not shoot(it is not hunting) from a vehicle at all,except when I have to cull.
I do not agree with Lion hunting in SA,personally I will never hunt one.I agree with both you and Engee on some facts.There is no difference between an Impala and a Lion,the hunt is of a different nature in our Country.You cannot do away with all fences.ASG has the correct explanation for free roaming(on fenced farms) animals.You will never satisfy everybody,unf***ingpossible.
I hope that you don't have a personal vendetta against Engee.We (have)had a very friendly forum and I hope that we can keep it that way.
To all of you ,may you have a great Monday
Philip Moolman


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## mwhuntun

*Phillip*

Thanks for the reply and i cannot agree more. Bottom line, we are all hunters. We must respect each others views for we all love the sport. I am a beginner to bowhunting and have had about 1% success rate on walk and stalk hunting(game fence) areas. My statement on blind hunting was just to put different views into perspective. I am not against it, it is just not my cup of tea. So all I want from others is not attacking other forms of hunting. I do not have anything against Engee and I respect his great knowledge of both tecnical and pratical aspects of bowhunting. I enjoy his articles and comments . I do not always agree with all but like you said we cannot keep all happy. I just want the same attitude from him and others to use the new? knowledge the so called canned hunting and see it from a hunter/conservationist side and not from anti hunting propoganda. Our Ass is really workig hard and spending millions of rands to fight the Kortbroek, not only regard lions butas you know the TOPS want to stop most bow hunting activities too. We are putting our money where our mouth is and would like all support here. We are fighting for hunting for the future. Thank yo for your positive attitude:thumbs_up


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## ASG

Experience is a tough and sometimes costly teacher.

I would rather have bowhunters hunting from blinds than allowing them to walk and stalk without a guide. Distances are known and the chances of screwing up the shot and wounding game are minimized.:thumbs_up


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## mwhuntun

*Blinds*



ASG said:


> Experience is a tough and sometimes costly teacher.
> 
> I would rather have bowhunters hunting from blinds than allowing them to walk and stalk without a guide. Distances are known and the chances of screwing up the shot and wounding game are minimized.:thumbs_up


That is very true that the known distances provide better shots and less wounding but even with walk and stalk the hunter should be disciplined enough not to shoot if he is not sure of the shot. Like we read many times:" the hunt is not always in the killing/shooting, but in the chase." Many animals are wounded from blinds as well so it gets down to discipline when to shoot or not to shoot:thumbs_up


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## Balky

Guys

Not entirely off topic but I hunted Scotland (Dumfries) when I lived in the UK for 2 years in 1998. Saved my pounds to hunt a red deer. I got to the huge estate, great big hunting lodge all to myself complete with a 'PH' (one of the worst excuses for a guide I've ever met). There were rolling hills and hedge rows and lots of merino type sheep and a few corrals. The PH took me through a photo album with individual deer which ranged from 200 pound 10 pointers to a massive 10 000 pounds for mutli pointed monster. These animals are herded into the corrals in winter and fed and the bigger boys are kept in smaller pens and released just before the hunter arrives. I naturally skipped on the red which really peed the PH off and opted to hunt a roe deer which is truly free range. To cut a long story short I shot a 5 pointer after 3 days hard walk & stalk hunting because I passed up inferior deer (you really should only shoot 6 pointers & above as a representative). At the end the guy wanted to charge me extra because I passed up immature rams! 

He also asked me if I wanted to shoot a 'sioux sheep' which is a 'really tough' quarry. Turns out these were the sheep I saw grazing by the roadside on day1. The PH also said that Impala, Baboon and Cape Buffalo could be hunted there. The Buff was 2000 pounds. Turns out these guys get to legally hunt the safari parks (like large politically correct zoos in Europe) when the guests are not there and the numbers are in excess!!!!!

Doesnt it make you sick?


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## INGOZI

Now that is a circus! Hell....


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## Bushkey

My dad once shot a big old Lion male with a R1, he was a Policeman. Apparently it was a monster, and a problem animal. As the story goes my dad was called to the farm of a well known person in the entertainment industry. His commander instructed him to take an R1 because the Police were not issued with .375 etc. You must also remember this was in the late 60's. 

My dad got to the farm and spoke to the owner. He told him that the Lion was reeking havoc on his donkeys. The other farm animals he could keep safe but not the donkeys. Luckily the old man also knew where the Lion kept himself during the day and hinted my dad in that direction. He didn't need to much direction because he could here the Lion roaring in the distance. My dad did this out of duty for he never loved hunting. 

I can remember he told me how small that R1 felt in his hands and to top it all of the commander only issued him two rounds. You see my dad just came back from Rhodesia where he fought in the bush war, and the commander knew he was a good shot, so he kinda expected my dad to be ok. 

Like I said my dad just came back from the war, and he said as he stalked to where he could here the Lion he was wishing he had his camo's on, instead of his fancy blue uniform with neatly boned "sambrown" over his shoulder. As he rounded a corner he kinda stumbled onto the Lion lazily lying in the shade. The Lion's attitude changed immediately as it leapt to its feat. My dad said only then he noticed how tall a Lion is in real live. The Lion charged at my dad, he said he nearly crapped in his pants. But the training for, and the time he spent on patrol in the bush in the Zambezi valley made him razor sharp. He instinctively picked up the rifle and fired one shot at the now roaring whilst charging Lion. It struck the large male in the head and slumped dead at his feet. 

My dad said if you think that was scary, he had to walk back to his car from the Lion cage past the tigers in the tiger cage, the elephants in the elephant enclosure a few Bears and a wild pack of poodles. Till the day he died he was adamant that the Circus farm is not a place for the faint hearted.


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## ASG

Bossie,

That sounds terrifying!
Imagine having to sneak past a pack of poodles with only an R1 for safety?

Your dad must have had cold sweats for the rest of his days.:wink:


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## Bushkey

ASG said:


> Bossie,
> 
> That sounds terrifying!
> Imagine having to sneak past a pack of poodles with only an R1 for safety?
> 
> Your dad must have had cold sweats for the rest of his days.:wink:


No he was a tough one, 'n regte skrik vir niks. He told me, he once hunted on a game farm where there was no game fences. The Kudu's was so big they could not fit under the telephone wires. Now that is a sight, and besides my dad was not the kind of guy that would lie to his friends. :wink: After all he taught me every thing I know today.


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## Landrover

Bushkey said:


> No he was a tough one, 'n regte skrik vir niks. He told me, he once hunted on a game farm where there was no game fences. The Kudu's was so big they could not fit under the telephone wires. Now that is a sight, and besides my dad was not the kind of guy that would lie to his friends. :wink: After all he taught me every thing I know today.


Good stuff!!! :wink:


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## ASG

Bossie,

Those were the good old days of hunting boet.
I can see your dad really knew what he was talking about and was certainly an honest man.

I remember as a kid we used to shoot Springbuck that were so big they looked like Gemsbuck boet. Hunting was tough back then. The average shot was so far we had to take the curvature of the earth into account. And that with open sights boet!:thumbs_up


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## Bushkey

ASG said:


> The average shot was so far we had to take the curvature of the earth into account. And that with open sights boet!:thumbs_up


I know what you mean. Circles had 380 degrees and triangles had 4 corners. :wink:


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## ASG

Ja boet,

It's a pity that our kids will never have the opportunity to hunt and fish like we did. 
It's been ages since I last shot an 80" Kudu and caught a 15kg Kurper from the same waterhole.


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## Drenalinjunkie8

Dont forget the mosquito's that are the size of mossies.....


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## Bushkey

Drenalinjunkie8 said:


> Dont forget the mosquito's that are the size of mossies.....


Like I said, my dad was a veteran of the Bush-war. Later in live he took us on drives to some of the places he told us off. I always saw those expanded metal cages covering the windows at the border post stations, vehicles and homes on the banks of the Limpopo. I always assumed that it was to protect the inhabitants from grenade attacks. 

But my dad knew better. He said that the mozzies was so big up North they had to put those kind of cages up to protect the people. You would not die of malaria but of blood loss if you got harpooned by one of them. They would also fly away with you to nearby trees to suck you dry. Like I said he came from a tough era. :wink:


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## ASG

Tough era is an understatement!

I've heard the older generation talk about the days when puffadders were twice the size of pythons. Often they would find a puffadder feeding on an elephant.

Those old boys were so tough they wiped their arses with cacti boet.
My uncle once told me how he had to carry his lame horse across the kalahari from Kuruman back to Katima in the Caprivi and the only thing he had to eat and drink was his leather boot soles and piss.

Before he got home he was attacked by a whole pride of lions and after a moerse fight he eventually killed them them all. He didn't want to waste the meat and skins so he carried them and the horse back to Katima but he said it was hard going due to loss of blood and gaping wounds but he endured and safely arrived at the pub in Katima for happy hour.

Afterwards he took the horse to the vet who promptly shot it and the cats to the butcher who said they were rotten. Lastly the poor oke made it to the hospital and after 700 stitches and 8 gallons of blood he made a full recovery.


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## Bushkey

ASG said:


> Tough era is an understatement!
> 
> I've heard the older generation talk about the days when puffadders were twice the size of pythons. Often they would find a puffadder feeding on an elephant.
> 
> Those old boys were so tough they wiped their arses with cacti boet.
> My uncle once told me how he had to carry his lame horse across the kalahari from Kuruman back to Katima in the Caprivi and the only thing he had to eat and drink was his leather boot soles and piss.
> 
> Before he got home he was attacked by a whole pride of lions and after a moerse fight he eventually killed them them all. He didn't want to waste the meat and skins so he carried them and the horse back to Katima but he said it was hard going due to loss of blood and gaping wounds but he endured and safely arrived at the pub in Katima for happy hour.
> 
> Afterwards he took the horse to the vet who promptly shot it and the cats to the butcher who said they were rotten. Lastly the poor oke made it to the hospital and after 700 stitches and 8 gallons of blood he made a full recovery.


That sounds like my dad. Did he not end up in ward 1, 3 and 6 of Katima's field hospital at the same time?:wink:


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## ASG

I'm sure he did end up in a couple of wards after that fight with the lions.
He also said that the old Matron was far more frightning than the lion attack.

Luckily those field doctors back then were so good they could bring a well done steak back from the dead.


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## Bushkey

ASG said:


> He also said that the old Matron was far more frightning than the lion attack.


It sounds like my mom. She used to kick start Boings after the war, but they had to retrench her. They had to keep fixing the kick starter the whole time and they had to constantly repaint the Jumbos where her leg hairs damaged it. :wink:


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## mogodu

These posts should be moved to the jokes thread:wink:

Groete
Stefan


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## Skirt

Drenalinjunkie8 said:


> Dont forget the mosquito's that are the size of mossies.....


MY Dad said that he was once woken up by two mosquitos sitting on his chest talking - one asked the other if they were going to suck him dry there and then or take him home. The other one said they will do it there because if they take him home the bigger ones will take him away from them - and this happened in Germiston, nowhere near the bush !!!!!:teeth:


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## Philip Moolman

*Mozzies*



Skirt said:


> MY Dad said that he was once woken up by two mosquitos sitting on his chest talking - one asked the other if they were going to suck him dry there and then or take him home. The other one said they will do it there because if they take him home the bigger ones will take him away from them - and this happened in Germiston, nowhere near the bush !!!!!:teeth:


Hier in Hoedspruit draai hulle jou kop af en drink jou soos n coke


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## ASG

Bushkey said:


> It sounds like my mom. She used to kick start Boings after the war, but they had to retrench her. They had to keep fixing the kick starter the whole time and they had to constantly repaint the Jumbos where her leg hairs damaged it. :wink:


Bossie,

What's your mom doing now that she's been retrenched? I heard they're looking for people at Bull Brand. They need someone to bliksem the cows into the bully beef tins.:thumbs_up


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## ASG

mogodu said:


> These posts should be moved to the jokes thread:wink:
> 
> Groete
> Stefan


Stefan,

I reckon we should start a "campfire tales" thread?:wink:


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## Bushkey

ASG said:


> Bossie,
> 
> What's your mom doing now that she's been retrenched? I heard they're looking for people at Bull Brand. They need someone to bliksem the cows into the bully beef tins.:thumbs_up


I am to scared to ask, because then I have to hold the tin:wink:


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## INGOZI

Philip Moolman said:


> Hier in Hoedspruit draai hulle jou kop af en drink jou soos n coke


Nie vir 'n MOER gaan ek ooit weer Hoedspruit toe nie!!!!


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## Skirt

Philip Moolman said:


> Hier in Hoedspruit draai hulle jou kop af en drink jou soos n coke




Bwhaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaa


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## Skirt

ASG said:


> Stefan,
> 
> I reckon we should start a "campfire tales" thread?:wink:


I agree - A "Banter" thread is great - sometimes one needs to talk a bit of [email protected] - gets rid of the tension


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## Landrover

ASG said:


> I'm sure he did end up in a couple of wards after that fight with the lions.


Yea, the looney ward!


Skirt said:


> MY Dad said that he was once woken up by two mosquitos sitting on his chest talking - :


Sounds like the ones in Southern Louisiana!!!


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## Drenalinjunkie8

Just a quick question... MWHuntin are you the same Frikkie as the one in the PSE video? I think his name was Frikkie du Toit


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## mwhuntun

*Lion hunting in South Africa*



Drenalinjunkie8 said:


> Just a quick question... MWHuntin are you the same Frikkie as the one in the PSE video? I think his name was Frikkie du Toit


Hi Drenalinjunkie8. No my name is Freddie (Fredirik C de Wet).


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## normbates1

Boy, I though this thread was getting a little "catty". (no pun intended) If you're bored, check this one out and possibly chime in, I think they would benefit from some African advise.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=688013

Norm


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