# what is good arrow grouping for bowhunting



## bathcountybuck (Mar 17, 2010)

just got my first bow yesterday and i was wondering what good grouping for bow hunting?


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## no1huntmaster (Dec 30, 2006)

4" circle at 20 yards would be a reasonable goal to set.
5 out of six arrows in there.


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## bathcountybuck (Mar 17, 2010)

okay so about the size of a base ball?


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

bathcountybuck said:


> okay so about the size of a base ball?


That's good. If you can hold that size group at 60 yards you are good to go at 40 yards in a hunting situation.


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

Back when I started it was 5 arrows (consistently) in a 9" paper plate & they said you were good to go.

For inner city qualification "special" Bowhunts I've participated in for 3 years now it's 5 out of 5 at a 9" paper plate at 20 yds...

if you shoot at a 3" spot 60 times & hit it all 60 times at 20 yds. thats a perfect indoor 300 round & you are for sure a pro.

Unless you shoot a lot I'm guessing keeping your arrows in a 6" area through 30 yds. is better than many out there hunting right now.

I practice through 60 yds. with my Broadheads but almost never shoot over 25 yds. Bowhunting. The key words are "consistent" & grouping your arrows.

When that 1st animal walks within range "remembering' to AIM is the key word.

Good Luck & enjoy a great sport.


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## Top Gauge (Sep 6, 2009)

An easy way that I think of it is, I pick a certain spot on my target face and shoot at it. If I can hold all of my arrows into an area covered by my hand with fingers stretched out I am good to go at that given distance. This gives me a fairly good margin of error. Currently I can nail this at 40 yards every time, and am getting close at 50, though in hunting situations I keep my max distance to 30 yards right now. I am trying to build up distance for moose hunting this coming fall.


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## NaturesEcho (Jan 20, 2009)

This is my rule of thumb:

2" at 20 yards
3" at 30 yards
4" at 40 yards
5" at 50 yards
6" at 60 yards
7" at 70 yards

etc...


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## pybowhtr (Nov 17, 2009)

rigginuts said:


> That's good. If you can hold that size group at 60 yards you are good to go at 40 yards in a hunting situation.


 If you can shoot baseball group at 60 yards with confidence , you are good to kill a whitetail out to 60 yards with a standing open shot.:thumbs_up


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## JC-XT (Feb 3, 2007)

Don't shoot groups, it's too hard on arrows and fletching. Shoot at different spots on the target, most block targets have a 3 inch circle on their faces and if you can hit those or stay close to them at 20 and 30 yards you should be in good shape for most hunting situations depending on where you are. Don't get frustrated, you'll get better with practice and whatever you do don't listen to the internet legends who talk about their 2 inch groups at 50 yards. The overwhelming majority of archers can't shoot like that. Practicing at 40 yards will make those 20 and 30 yards shots seem a lot easier, but don't expect great results right off the bat. Here's an example of a target, if you can hit those circles at 20 and 30 yards then your biggest challenge will be staying calm and shooting as well in hunting situations at live game. Good luck.


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## thebrowningdude (Nov 20, 2009)

I practice on a white spot about 3" max on a circle about 4" with a hunter orange ring at about 20-25 yds. When I'm shooting everything in the 4" circle with 1/2 making the white...I'm good to go. I try to put 2-3 out of 4 in the white. I also try to shoot fairly quickly, as game doesn't tend to remain motionless indefinetly as we all know.
Aim small, miss small....really helps me concentrate off the pie plate mentality I started with. I'm a bowhunter and not a tourney archer, so take it for what it's worth, but we're having deer tacos tonight. Worked for me for quite awhile.
When it comes to shooting a deer..WHERE you put that arrow is what it's all about.
I can hit targets at 50 yards, but that's not something I'd ever do with live game.
That's just me...just get consistent at 10..then 20..then 30 and IMO you're in the game so long as you know deer _vitals_.


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## busdriver51 (Jan 21, 2009)

Don't shoot further than you can consistantly hit within a 6" circle.


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## wiredup (Mar 4, 2010)

when you start grouping tight enough to where you impress yourself... and or bust a couple a nocks... then your grouping good...


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## wapiti16b (Jun 23, 2009)

*Groups*

:darkbeer:
I start out with 2 to 3" groups with target points at 20 , 30 , 40 , 50 on a good day ! , all the way out to 90 yds ! . Once I'm happy with that I shoot broadheads at small balloons ( about fist size ) all the way out to 90 yds . If I pop the balloon on the first shot I move on to the next yardage . As soon as it takes more then two shots I fine tune my sight to that range ( SpottHogg ) and make a decision as to was it me or the wind ? .
By doing this I can consistently pop balloons at 70 yds and come very close out to 90 . More then close enough for a kill ! That does'nt mean that I would shoot that far , unless conditions were perfect and it was the Elk of a lifetime.
I'm 50 and time is running out !:wink:


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## goblism (Apr 12, 2007)

starting out strive to have 4/5 arrows within 4" at 20 yards, 5" at 30, ect.

Yeah some guys on here say 1" per 10 yards, well if you can consistently shoot a 2" group at 20 yards you should have no problem at all shooting a 300 60x


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## NEMOshooter (Nov 24, 2005)

NaturesEcho said:


> This is my rule of thumb:
> 
> 2" at 20 yards
> 3" at 30 yards
> ...


this is my rule of thumb as well. this is after you have gained strength and have gotten consistent with shooting form.


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## PAkilla86 (Mar 17, 2009)

JC-XT said:


> Don't shoot groups, it's too hard on arrows and fletching. Shoot at different spots on the target, most block targets have a 3 inch circle on their faces and if you can hit those or stay close to them at 20 and 30 yards you should be in good shape for most hunting situations depending on where you are. Don't get frustrated, you'll get better with practice and* whatever you do don't listen to the internet legends who talk about their 2 inch groups at 50 yards. The overwhelming majority of archers can't shoot like that.* Practicing at 40 yards will make those 20 and 30 yards shots seem a lot easier, but don't expect great results right off the bat. Here's an example of a target, if you can hit those circles at 20 and 30 yards then your biggest challenge will be staying calm and shooting as well in hunting situations at live game. Good luck.


Best advice given and likely the most honest post on this thread!!! 


Now lets see who has a guilty concsionce and calls me out.....


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## slickstalker (Sep 21, 2008)

If you took all of the previous replies to this tread, mix them together, then separate the relevant from the irrelevant, you would have a pretty good answer to your question.
Once you can hit what you're aiming at, whether 10yrds, 20yrds, 30yrds or what ever distance, you will then be able to establish your personal effective range.
If you can only hit your target consistently at 10yrds, than that is your effective range so if you hunt with that, you must restrict your shots to within your effective range.
You should be able to be effective out to 20yrds anyway and possibly well beyond that.
The bottom line is to stay within your own limitations throughout all aspects of your hunt.


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## BaxMaine (Oct 27, 2009)

Shoot as far as you can hold a 2-3" group IMO.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

goblism said:


> starting out strive to have 4/5 arrows within 4" at 20 yards, 5" at 30, ect.
> 
> Yeah some guys on here say 1" per 10 yards, well if you can consistently shoot a 2" group at 20 yards you should have no problem at all shooting a 300 60x


:darkbeer:

marty


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## skulley (Feb 10, 2010)

find yourself a qualified shooter and have them teach you how to shoot. proper bow w/ proper form. then worry about grouping


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Here is my 50 yard group its good enough for me . It is all your call really you know what is good enough.


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## pybowhtr (Nov 17, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Here is my 50 yard group its good enough for me . It is all your call really you know what is good enough.


 //that is quality shooting ! Big bucks beware:thumbs_up


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## ebonarcher (Mar 2, 2008)

I's say what ever distance you can get in a 8/7 on a fita target.
If you can consistantly score 8 or better at 40 yards you good 40 yards or under. If you can do it at 50 then 50 or under.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

> 4" circle at 20 yards would be a reasonable goal to set.
> 5 out of six arrows in there





> If you can hold that size group at 60 yards you are good to go at 40 yards in a hunting situation





> Unless you shoot a lot I'm guessing keeping your arrows in a 6" area through 30 yds. is better than many out there hunting right now.





> This is my rule of thumb:
> 
> 2" at 20 yards
> 3" at 30 yards
> ...





> If you can only hit your target consistently at 10yrds, than that is your effective range so if you hunt with that, you must restrict your shots to within your effective range.





> Shoot as far as you can hold a 2-3" group IMO.


All these quotes don't mean a hill of beans if you don't practice shooting these groups in situations that as closely as possible mimic a real hunting type scenario.
Before these numbers can really translate to the field, you need to do a number of things first: 

1) put your gear on
2) if you hunt in cold weather; put some more gear on
3) if you hunt in a tree; get up there and shoot 
4) if you hunt with gloves; put em on and shoot
5) if you hunt with a mask; put it on and shoot 

Shooting whatever group on a range or while wearing just a T-shirt only proves that you can shoot that accurate under those conditions. Now introduce all the gear that you might actually wear when that shot is taken and combine it with the other "in the field" variables, and now you are getting a little closer to what your actual shooting ability might be in the field.

Those group size numbers on the target range are weak.


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## Hillrunner (Sep 13, 2009)

Wow, a lot of people on here want you to shoot competition quality groupings to go hunt deer. (either that or they like to brag) If you are shooting 4 inch groups consistently at 20, you are more than ready to hunt at that range. Move back and practice to make those closer shots seem really close.
In my opinion you should not hunt if you can't hold at least a 6 inch group consistently at the distance you plan to shoot.


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## BullShooterAB (Mar 20, 2010)

skyhunter said:


> All these quotes don't mean a hill of beans if you don't practice shooting these groups in situations that as closely as possible mimic a real hunting type scenario.
> Before these numbers can really translate to the field, you need to do a number of things first:
> 
> 1) put your gear on
> ...


I like this answer. 

When I frst started bow hunting I was absolutely astonished at the differences in POI when variables such as clothing, lighting, etc. came into play. You really need to experiment a bit to understand and appreciate external variables and conditions.


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## BaxMaine (Oct 27, 2009)

Hillrunner said:


> Wow, a lot of people on here want you to shoot competition quality groupings to go hunt deer. (either that or they like to brag) If you are shooting 4 inch groups consistently at 20, you are more than ready to hunt at that range. Move back and practice to make those closer shots seem really close.
> In my opinion you should not hunt if you can't hold at least a 6 inch group consistently at the distance you plan to shoot.


2" @ 20yds is far from "competition" type groups. With today's bows, if you cant keep a 2-3" group, you probably shouldn't be shooting a bow at deer. Aim small, miss small. If your goal is with in 6 inches of your target, then you are going to miss huge.


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## birdman (Apr 24, 2004)

Since no one else has said it,welcome to AT and the world of archery...archery is all about form..getting anchored right everytime and not punching the release....i wouldnt worry all that much about group size to start with but rather work on your form....also dont try to hold your pin dead on your spot.its going to float a little and if you try to hold rock solid all you will do is get a good case of target panic and punch your release and jerk your bow...no one expects you to shoot X's at 20 yards so dont....just remember its the very first arrow that kills,its rare you ever get do overs in the field....take your time and practice a little everyday..if you do 12 arrows a day and get a 6" group at 20 yards then step back to 30 yards and get a 6 " group..when you do that then go back to 40yards...the longer the distance you shoot the more defects in your form will show...its all about form...dont be afraid of 40 or 50 yard practice...practice long and hunt short...once you get 6" groups at 50yards then when you step up to 20yards your going to be busting knocks on your arrows...a word of advice,dont shoot 2 arrows at the same spot unless you want damaged arrows...good luck and enjoy the sport...JMO


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

My 50 yard group.

I've got a little work to do......:embara:


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## natural born k (Dec 30, 2007)

NaturesEcho said:


> This is my rule of thumb:
> 
> 2" at 20 yards
> 3" at 30 yards
> ...


i like that


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## knob (Nov 27, 2009)

Heck just shoot a life size deer target. If you can hit the vitals 100% of the time then you are good to go. If you can do it out to 30 yds then you are good to that range and so on.


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## ryan h (Feb 1, 2008)

be as accurate as possible try not to ever quit improving


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## scrawnyPilgrim (May 1, 2009)

Right now from 50 yards my arrows are 1, maybe 2 centimeters apart. But that's with field points. Haven't tested with broad heads my new setup yet.


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## slickstalker (Sep 21, 2008)

birdman said:


> Since no one else has said it,welcome to AT and the world of archery...archery is all about form..getting anchored right everytime and not punching the release....i wouldnt worry all that much about group size to start with but rather work on your form....also dont try to hold your pin dead on your spot.its going to float a little and if you try to hold rock solid all you will do is get a good case of target panic and punch your release and jerk your bow...no one expects you to shoot X's at 20 yards so dont....just remember its the very first arrow that kills,its rare you ever get do overs in the field....take your time and practice a little everyday..if you do 12 arrows a day and get a 6" group at 20 yards then step back to 30 yards and get a 6 " group..when you do that then go back to 40yards...the longer the distance you shoot the more defects in your form will show...its all about form...dont be afraid of 40 or 50 yard practice...practice long and hunt short...once you get 6" groups at 50yards then when you step up to 20yards your going to be busting knocks on your arrows...a word of advice,dont shoot 2 arrows at the same spot unless you want damaged arrows...good luck and enjoy the sport...JMO


This here is the right advise. I have to admit I overlooked the fact he's new with a bow.
Sometimes the hunting season comes up though before you get it perfected and you still want to hunt. 
Once you get on target, you must stay within your own limitations. What ever distance you can hit your target consistently is where you need to draw the line for hunting. Don't go by the distance others say they shoot. Go by the distance you can shoot.
Schools in progress so have fun and good luck.


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## Lefty18 (Nov 16, 2009)

NaturesEcho said:


> This is my rule of thumb:
> 
> 2" at 20 yards
> 3" at 30 yards
> ...


 This is what I was told when I asked when I first got into archery. One inch per ten yards.


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## deerhunter3241 (Jun 7, 2004)

Shooting groups at a target with spots on it will make you go mad. If you are in it for hunting and enjoyment, I suggest you get a 3D target of whatever you are after (deer, turkey, etc) and shoot that all the time. They have kill zones clearly marked and it will give you instance gratification of your improvement. It also prepares you for what live game will look like in your sight picture.


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## paraglide (Aug 21, 2006)

*Hunt happens*

My first year I had lousy equipment, and was limited to 20 yards. I got one shot at about 10 yards and missed because the arrow fell off of the rest. Gear is much better now, but stuff still happens. Just be sure it is a shot you can make before you draw.


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## dlhredfoxx (Feb 5, 2008)

*A good rule of thumb...*

... is that if all of your arrows take out the heart/lung region of the animal, then you'll fill your tag and have steaks in the freezer. I've found that I really have to marinate those high density foam targets a long time to tenderize them, and then their a little tough to choke down. :darkbeer:


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## Jshep40 (Aug 28, 2006)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Here is my 50 yard group its good enough for me . It is all your call really you know what is good enough.


I killed a TON of deer, can not shoot that good,


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## IndianaPSE (Nov 11, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Here is my 50 yard group its good enough for me . It is all your call really you know what is good enough.


If that's a real group, I applaud your ability to shoot like that at 50 yards. That's near perfect. Probably a better shot than 99.9% of the folks on here.

But man, and don't hate me for saying this, but that group looks almost too perfect. Hmmmm.


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## t-roys (Oct 12, 2009)

My dad is 65. I can shot circles around him when we target shoot. I love to smack his nocks off whenever we shoot just to be honory! But I got to tell you, even in his prime he shot at a paper plate on a bale of hay all day. He always told me if I can hit a paper plate, I can kill a deer. All I can say, he has killed a hell of a lot more deer than I have! Shooting a target helps you alot and keeps your equipment all sighted in, but releasing an arrow into a deer at 20 to 30 yards in your heavy clothing on a 20 degree day is a different story. 

I hope to be my dad someday!


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

t-roys said:


> Shooting a target helps you alot and keeps your equipment all sighted in, but releasing an arrow into a deer at 20 to 30 yards *in your heavy clothing on a 20 degree day is a different story*.


Finally some sanity on this thread. The very point that I tried to make in my post. Unfortunately what you clearly stated is what most guys on here overlook or fail to realize as a vital element of measuring one's "in the field" shooting abilities.

Whatever group you can shoot under controlled conditions on a target range while wearing only a T-shirt on top, doesn't translate into shooting that group in the field.

Put on all your stuff ( layers, jacket, gloves, mask, etc) and go shoot, and then get back to me about your group sizes.

When a shooter has established consistency when shooting while wearing all his stuff; and when he/she practices shots that as closely as possible mimic "in the field" shot opportunities, now you have something of real value to gauge your "in the field" effective ranges. 

Target range / T-shirt wearing group size falls well short of this mark.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Jshep40 said:


> I killed a TON of deer, can not shoot that good,


Me too lots and lots of deer and other game when I am into my practice or shooting this is how it looks but the second I become bored its ove and the group opens up like a unstitched cut on a finger but in the woods or on a hunt I am nothing but bussiness and my intreset is never any keener. I love to hunt lets face it I am a hunter .


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

IndianaPSE said:


> If that's a real group, I applaud your ability to shoot like that at 50 yards. That's near perfect. Probably a better shot than 99.9% of the folks on here.
> 
> But man, and don't hate me for saying this, but that group looks almost too perfect. Hmmmm.


I promis its is a real group as real as my IBO national championship beltbuck and tripple crown plaques are . I have zero reason to cheat or lie about the pic it serves as nothing but lies . It was shot with an Athens accomplis and trophy taker rest with the arrows you see with my carter release that I use to hunt with . It is not an uncommon groop for me at a known yardage . So please do not insinuate I have made up the groop for a pic. My hunting buddy is a National champion ,and world champion and I shoot and am freinds with some of the best that the IBO has had over the last 30 years we are not just some guys whpo get on the net and pretend about shooting equipment or my hunting or its succeses and a few failures it is what it is .Besides did you expect me or anyone else to rake a pic of the worst group trhat they have shot and post it not hardly . It was not my best as I have taken the back end from more than one shaft at that distance so that would make them nock busting better groups wouldnt't it and I did not post them here it is what it is !!? 

Semper Fi..


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## NaturesEcho (Jan 20, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I promis its is a real group as real as my IBO national championship beltbuck and tripple crown plaques are . I have zero reason to cheat or lie about the pic it serves as nothing but lies . It was shot with an Athens accomplis and trophy taker rest with the arrows you see with my carter release that I use to hunt with . It is not an uncommon groop for me at a known yardage . So please do not insinuate I have made up the groop for a pic. My hunting buddy is a National champion ,and world champion and I shoot and am freinds with some of the best that the IBO has had over the last 30 years we are not just some guys whpo get on the net and pretend about shooting equipment or my hunting or its succeses and a few failures it is what it is .Besides did you expect me or anyone else to rake a pic of the worst group trhat they have shot and post it not hardly . It was not my best as I have taken the back end from more than one shaft at that distance so that would make them nock busting better groups wouldnt't it and I did not post them here it is what it is !!?
> 
> Semper Fi..




Ever heard of modesty? 

Tell me, is it difficult to get down on your peep site having such a giant head?


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## dlhredfoxx (Feb 5, 2008)

*Omg*



Shouldernuke! said:


> Here is my 50 yard group its good enough for me . It is all your call really you know what is good enough.


Holy cow! i'd give my left... well you know... to shoot a 50 yd group like that! My 10 yd groups are'nt that tight! Salute! :mg:


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## knob (Nov 27, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I promis its is a real group as real as my IBO national championship beltbuck and tripple crown plaques are . I have zero reason to cheat or lie about the pic it serves as nothing but lies . It was shot with an Athens accomplis and trophy taker rest with the arrows you see with my carter release that I use to hunt with . It is not an uncommon groop for me at a known yardage . So please do not insinuate I have made up the groop for a pic. My hunting buddy is a National champion ,and world champion and I shoot and am freinds with some of the best that the IBO has had over the last 30 years we are not just some guys whpo get on the net and pretend about shooting equipment or my hunting or its succeses and a few failures it is what it is .Besides did you expect me or anyone else to rake a pic of the worst group trhat they have shot and post it not hardly . It was not my best as I have taken the back end from more than one shaft at that distance so that would make them nock busting better groups wouldnt't it and I did not post them here it is what it is !!?
> 
> Semper Fi..


That's some really great shooting but come on the OP just wanted to know what kind of groups he needed to go hunting. If you need that tight of group I got to quit deer hunting.


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## k_marshall (Feb 4, 2010)

here is my 2 cents.. if you feel confident (key word CONFIDENT) that you can ethically kill a deer with your shooting skills then grab your bow and get in the woods. There are no standards for killing deer


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## bathcountybuck (Mar 17, 2010)

i didn't mean to start a issue with this question just got into archery and didn't know what was good.. sorry guys


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

You have done nothing that requires an apology.

marty


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## bowhuntr311 (May 20, 2009)

NaturesEcho said:


> This is my rule of thumb:
> 
> 2" at 20 yards
> 3" at 30 yards
> ...


For a novice shooter I DISAGREE with this. A 5 Shot group under 2in at 20yards. Not reasonable. Yea after a few months, then yes. Matterfact i may really start to measure my own groups and use this. 

I was told when I started take standard paper plate. So thats gotta be about that 9in range. Hit that every shot at a certain distance and thats your max range.

Like others have said. ADD clothing, excitement, brush, and animal.... So on and so forth. Your accuracy is only a SMALL part of what it really takes to take an animals life.


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## knob (Nov 27, 2009)

zap said:


> You have done nothing that requires an apology.
> 
> marty


T-totally agree. Your question was a good one. The group everybody is fussing about is not your average group. I wish I could shoot half that good (I'm not sure I could group five slugs that tight from 50 yards). Yet I have killed a lot of deer over the years. Only you can decide when your ready.


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## DUCK29 (Feb 13, 2006)

Hitting spots on paper and killing a buck at the moment of truth are two totally different things. Start with the paper plate thing to build your confidence, then as someone else said, always try to get better. If you can practice at 40 yards, the 20-25 yarders will get very easy and become chip shots. Then to build your confidence more, watch a bunch of hunting videos and see some of the "fantastic" shots they make. Yes that was sarcasm.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

I think alot of folks shoot 3-4 groups and only "count" the best one.
EVERY arrow in 2" group at 20, in 3" group at 30 and so on is PRO shooting level.
Somedays I shoot better than others, My longest shot on a deer to date is 45, I may shoot one farther than that someday. 

But only if its over bait, inside a fence, with a rage, while its walking at me, and I am in a treesatand at least 30' high. And Big Otis is filming me.
:cheers:

marty


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## DUCK29 (Feb 13, 2006)

zap said:


> I think alot of folks shoot 3-4 groups and only "count" the best one.
> EVERY arrow in 2" group at 20, in 3" group at 30 and so on is PRO shooting level.
> Somedays I shoot better than others, My longest shot on a deer to date is 45, I may shoot one farther than that someday.
> 
> ...


:darkbeer:


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## busdriver51 (Jan 21, 2009)

If you know where to Aim on the Deer, a 6" circle is good enough, but a 4" would be better.


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

bathcountybuck said:


> i didn't mean to start a issue with this question just got into archery and didn't know what was good.. sorry guys





zap said:


> You have done nothing that requires an apology.
> 
> marty


Agree with Marty. 

No need to apologize at all.

I was having fun with the pic i posted earlier, and i hope that didn't bother you. I try not to take myself too seriously. I DO however take my archery and my bowhunting VERY seriously.

I practice several times a week, year round, except during the rut, and I'm usually in a treestand every day.

This is my rule of thumb. I practice out to 70 yards at home, in comfortable clothes, just enjoying shooting. In a real hunting situation, i cut that in half in most cases, meaning i try to keep my shots at a deer around 35 yards or less, because it's usually colder, windier, and I'm wearing several layers of clothes. I broke my rule this year and took a buck at long range, but conditions were absolutely perfect, and i knew i could make the shot.

That's really the key there. Only you know what your range is. Keep practicing, and as the seasons roll by, that range will extend, and those groups will get tighter and tighter.....


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

knob said:


> That's some really great shooting but come on the OP just wanted to know what kind of groups he needed to go hunting. If you need that tight of group I got to quit deer hunting.


If you read what I said .I said only the shooter knows what is good enough for them. I would never impose my standards orr the standards of others on any hunt / shooter . I beleive ol Lonestar has seen enough of my posts to know that and by the way . Also I said in my first post with the pic it was good enough for me and a hunter/ shooter knows what is is good enough for them.


Lonestar I am glad to see your groupos are tightening up the arrows in the bag were encourageing !!!:shade:


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

NaturesEcho said:


> Ever heard of modesty?
> 
> Tell me, is it difficult to get down on your peep site having such a giant head?


Dude the guy called me a lier it was only self defense and a bit of history is all . It was not what you made me out to be it was self defense not brag.Some of you guys are reading way way more into my statements that is there and once you put all of the replies with them you will see that .

Tell me is it difficult to read whole threads when your in such a hurry to bash people who are deffening themselves it would seem your pedistal is slightly higher than mine tonite???


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## t-roys (Oct 12, 2009)

My son got a new bow last November. He has been practicing his little heart out. I watched him put 5 arrows in a spot about the size of a softball. He kept begging me and begging me to take his bow hunting. I kept telling him it takes more than that to kill a deer. Finally I let him go out with his bow during the Kansas late doe season. Before we began, I made him shoot from the stand to see how he did. Well he was in his winter clothes, strapped to a tree, and 15 feet off the ground. Needless to say he couldn't take a shot. 

So is he accurate with his bow, your darn right he is. Is he ready to kill a deer, No. We are planning on hitting the blind in a couple weeks for some turkey hunting. I want to see how he does with turkeys before I turn him loose on a deer. 

If you feel confident, go for it!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

k_marshall said:


> here is my 2 cents.. if you feel confident (key word CONFIDENT) that you can ethically kill a deer with your shooting skills then grab your bow and get in the woods. There are no standards for killing deer


There it is


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## mt_elkhunter (Feb 28, 2010)

Lonestar63 said:


> My 50 yard group.
> 
> I've got a little work to do......:embara:
> 
> ...


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## completepassthru (Feb 3, 2008)

BaxMaine said:


> 2" @ 20yds is far from "competition" type groups. With today's bows, if you cant keep a 2-3" group, you probably shouldn't be shooting a bow at deer. Aim small, miss small. If your goal is with in 6 inches of your target, then you are going to miss huge.


This is rediculous to say if you cannot shoot a 2-3in. group you should not be hunting deer. You do not have to be able to shoot 2in. groups to kill a deer at normal ranges from 15-25 yards.

I will say another thing. If these guys can shoot these 2-3in. groups at 70-90 yards they should be competing with the top shooters in the world. There sure is alot of struttin going on here.


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## SlimTastic (Sep 10, 2009)

zap said:


> But only if its over bait, inside a fence, with a rage, while its walking at me, and I am in a treesatand at least 30' high. And Big Otis is filming me.
> :cheers:
> 
> marty


Best post all day! Only things u forgot were the xbow and scentlock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndianaPSE (Nov 11, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Dude the guy called me a lier it was only self defense and a bit of history is all . It was not what you made me out to be it was self defense not brag.Some of you guys are reading way way more into my statements that is there and once you put all of the replies with them you will see that .
> 
> Tell me is it difficult to read whole threads when your in such a hurry to bash people who are deffening themselves it would seem your pedistal is slightly higher than mine tonite???


No, not a liar. I was just pokin ya! Really, that is some wicked awesome shooting. My hat is off to you.

I love the guy's comment about not being able to shoot that well with a shotgun. +1. I can't shoot that tight at 20. It really is impressive shooting!


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## knob (Nov 27, 2009)

Tell me is it difficult to read whole threads when your in such a hurry to bash people who are deffening themselves it would seem your pedistal is slightly higher than mine tonite???[/QUOTE]

No bashing intended at all here. You shoot really really good and I admire that. I'm just saying I don't think it's necessary to be that good before you head to the stand. I practice when I can but lord I'm not nearly that good.


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## slickstalker (Sep 21, 2008)

Mercy, I can't believe how out of whack this thread has gone. The pertinent info was posted early on in this thread. You all are just beatin your heads against the wall.


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

NaturesEcho said:


> Ever heard of modesty?
> 
> Tell me, is it difficult to get down on your peep site having such a giant head?


:nono:

I think you misunderstood Nukes intent.

There's only a handful of hunters on AT that i perk up and listen to when they start talking hunting, and Nuke is one of those.

On the other hand i think there is a number of keyboard hunters on here, who brag about kills and offer no proof whatsoever.

Very seldom does he post pics, or brag about past accomplishments in archery, but i promise you his list is long........


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## DandyRandy10 (Jan 12, 2010)

*Group*

Try ranging the target with your range finder, reposition your bow, attach your release to the loop, pick a pin, aim, and shoot (quickly). If its a deer it is probably moving so it is getting closer or farther away. By the time you hook up the release, find which pin to use, and aim, the deer is not at the range it was. Now what pin do you use? Hold higher or lower with which pin. Think fast! Then add nerves, clothes, cold, wind, and whatever else the day may bring and what kind of groups do you get? All the arrows in a 5 to 6 inch circle will do fine. Thats a heckuva group in the one post. I got a friend that can't do that with his 30.06 at a hundred yards.


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## BaxMaine (Oct 27, 2009)

completepassthu said:


> This is rediculous to say if you cannot shoot a 2-3in. group you should not be hunting deer. You do not have to be able to shoot 2in. groups to kill a deer at normal ranges from 15-25 yards.
> 
> I will say another thing. If these guys can shoot these 2-3in. groups at 70-90 yards they should be competing with the top shooters in the world. There sure is alot of struttin going on here.


Not one person claimed to shoot 2" at 70-90yds... Should probably read before you start slamming people.

With new bows, accuracy shouldn't be a problem at 20 yards. 2-3 inches is what I shot day 1 with my bow. Having a goal of 6" at 20 yards is just bad.


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## mt_elkhunter (Feb 28, 2010)

Also with ranging. You might want to start estimating ranges because you wont always have time you get your rangefinder out and get a distance. For instance this year elk hunting I saw where a bull went and layed down. After an hr of sneaking in I knew he was pretty close so I ranged a couple of bushes in the area. He stood up at 25 yds I took a shot and he had moved, my arrow deflected of his antler. He went crashing up the hill, I hit the cow call and he froze broadside. I estimated 60 yds and let a second arrow go. BOOM on target. I ranged it afterwards and it was 63 yds uphill. So it pays to start storing approx distances in your head so you can refer to them when the time comes. I like to estimate a range to something then take the rangefinder out and see how close I am. Its good practice.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

BaxMaine said:


> Not one person claimed to shoot 2" at 70-90yds... Should probably read before you start slamming people.
> 
> With new bows, accuracy shouldn't be a problem at 20 yards. 2-3 inches is what I shot day 1 with my bow. Having a goal of 6" at 20 yards is just bad.


I just didnt want to brag.

:darkbeer:

marty


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## zara_puppy (Sep 10, 2006)

First year - first off congratulations. A lot of bowhunters I know don't even get their bow out until September, so good for you starting out at a reasonable time.

Also - depending on where you hunt you may never get a shot outside of 30 yards - since you're starting off try to stay inside that range. A recent post also indicates begin practicing estimating range. Great advice. Another poster also says practice (at least some) from the height you plan to hunt at. Shooting down from 15 feet or more is a different critter. Practice some with a face mask and gloves, too. All this advice I try to follow.

Finally - since it seems your goal is to be successful in the hunt, don't forget that the bow, the practice and all that stuff above is important but only part of what you need to do. To be successful in the deer woods, first you need a deer woods. Find your woods ASAP. Get to know that woods, find the trails, scout, scout, scout. To be truly successful, take the "guesses" out of the picture. Don't hunt a stand when the wind isn't right, learn to get to and from your stand in the best way possible. Place yourself so you get shots at 20 yards and less - then you'll have venison in your freezer.

Just my opinion. Thanks.


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## Philly (Feb 22, 2010)

skyhunter said:


> All these quotes don't mean a hill of beans if you don't practice shooting these groups in situations that as closely as possible mimic a real hunting type scenario.
> Before these numbers can really translate to the field, you need to do a number of things first:
> 
> 1) put your gear on
> ...


This is GREAT advise....everything comes into play when it comes to archery!


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## ruttnwapati (Sep 22, 2008)

skyhunter said:


> All these quotes don't mean a hill of beans if you don't practice shooting these groups in situations that as closely as possible mimic a real hunting type scenario.
> Before these numbers can really translate to the field, you need to do a number of things first:
> 
> 1) put your gear on
> ...



Best advise given. Only thing I would like to add is to run a couple of twenty yard sprints hard (get the heart rate up), pick up your bow and try for these optimum groupings everyone is mentioning. Believe me when you draw back on an animal your heart will be pumping and it's alot harder than standing with perfect form and shooting at a bag/target. 
Also, try shooting from your knees, with gear on. Never ran across the perfect shot (me standing with plenty of time for the animal waiting for me to release).
Practice, practice,practice.... for real life weather conditions and quick shots
from kneeling to standing, from level to unlevel ground... from 20 to 60 yards..
real life happens outdoors!!!
You will know what a good grouping is when your comfortable with your bow in different situations


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

you need to be able to hit within an inch or inch and a half of the smallest spot your shooting at. deer arent targets. they will take a step, drop at the sound of the bow, etc. you have to take all of that into consideration. if you cant consistently hit within the range mentioned at the spot your shooting at, thats out of your range. I keep all my shots at 25 yards and under when hunting cause past that theres no telling where the deer will be when the arrow gets there. its much better to be conservative than to wound/lose an animal. also make sure your broadheads fly like your field points with no wobble in the arrow. make sure the broadheads are razor sharp and know your angles. then fire up the grill.  good luck this fall


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## ghost1 (Mar 1, 2007)

Lonestar63 said:


> My 50 yard group.
> 
> I've got a little work to do......:embara:


Lonestare Is that with rage heads:darkbeer: lol


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## OldLefty (Jan 28, 2010)

I rarely consider posting and usually only do so on "lighthearted" threads. This one, however, has really gotten my dander up.

I truly admire someone who can handle a bow really well. I have been flinging arrows since the early 1960's and I have always struggled to shoot what I consider well. I have experienced about every shooting fault known to archery and I've conquered a few along the way.

For someone to be able to group their arrows as some have indicated is a truly admirable accomplishment and my hat is off to you. 

What really upsets -and angers- me is for someone to truly believe that I have to be what I consider a gifted archer in order to be qualified to go afield and pursue game. Those who feel that to qualify to do so requires that I be able to place my shots in a group equivalent to 1" per 10 yards distance are being TOTALLY unrealistic.

I'm sure that some of you have shot a 28 round field course. You know that a perfect score is 560. And, you know that to require the accuracy some people hold to would easily have us all shooting perfect scores on a field round. To require this level of accuracy to hunt would be TOTALLY ludicrous!!

I must repeat my feeling of admiration for those who can handle a bow exceptionally well. I am not one of those folks and I will never be.

Maybe I should just hang up my new bow and go fishing? Afterall, some of you have made it VERY clear that I shouldn't be hunting, for sure...


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## birdman (Apr 24, 2004)

OldLefty said:


> I rarely consider posting and usually only do so on "lighthearted" threads. This one, however, has really gotten my dander up.
> 
> I truly admire someone who can handle a bow really well. I have been flinging arrows since the early 1960's and I have always struggled to shoot what I consider well. I have experienced about every shooting fault known to archery and I've conquered a few along the way.
> 
> ...


BINGO...we all have differant levels of accurate shooting...to say you HAVE to shoot tight groups isnt quite right...sure its great to shoot 5-6" groups at 60-70 yards but god when your knees and hips hurt thats just to much walking to retrieve arrows at long yardage so just put up the 3D target and pop 1 or 2 in right behind the shoulder at 30 yards and call it good enough....its great to toot your horn and no one says you shouldnt when your shooting tight groups at longer yardage but for the OP its not needed to kill a lot of deer...when you can step out in the back yard and shoot from anywhere and put it right behind the shoulder i wouldnt worry all that much about groups...some guys shoot great and some dont but some where in between is where the most of us are....i mean look at lonestar, i bet he hunts a lot too,maybe not much past 6-7 yards but he still hunts..the problem is lonestar is useing to big of a traget...aim at big and miss big...aim at small and hit small....JMO


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

50 yards? The woods where I hunt you cant see 50 yards yet alone have a clear shooting lane 50 yards.

I have not seen a presentable shot at a deer beyond 25 yards and all I had to do was wait for him to walk to me which he did.

:shade:


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## bigwitt1171 (Mar 23, 2010)

JC-XT said:


> Don't shoot groups, it's too hard on arrows and fletching. Shoot at different spots on the target, most block targets have a 3 inch circle on their faces and if you can hit those or stay close to them at 20 and 30 yards you should be in good shape for most hunting situations depending on where you are. Don't get frustrated, you'll get better with practice and whatever you do don't listen to the internet legends who talk about their 2 inch groups at 50 yards. The overwhelming majority of archers can't shoot like that. Practicing at 40 yards will make those 20 and 30 yards shots seem a lot easier, but don't expect great results right off the bat. Here's an example of a target, if you can hit those circles at 20 and 30 yards then your biggest challenge will be staying calm and shooting as well in hunting situations at live game. Good luck.


x2, I don't know how many arrows, flectings and nocks I've gone through shooting at the same bulls eye. With practice over the last three years at 2 yards I can put 6 arrows within 2 inches. When I started out I was 6 arrows in 10-12 inches. Just like anything in life the more you practice the better you will get.


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## ford832 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigwitt1171 said:


> x2, With practice over the last three years at 2 yards I can put 6 arrows within 2 inches.


Not bad but you know you're good when you can do that from 4yds.:set1_rolf2:


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## ford832 (Dec 18, 2008)

One more thought,I think I'd use about a 4" or so bull as opposed to a pie plate size.Initially,I tried that size but found my groups were way larger than when I was shooting at a smaller target-I assumed because it was easier to centre the pin on a smaller target though it may have just been me.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

ford832 said:


> One more thought,I think I'd use about a 4" or so bull as opposed to a pie plate size.Initially,I tried that size but found my groups were way larger than when I was shooting at a smaller target-I assumed because it was easier to centre the pin on a smaller target though it may have just been me.


Good point; which brings up another very important point. Yes, it is much easier to shoot a tighter group when your target is a small circle. Now when you enlarge that circle you have to find the center of that circle in order to maintain that group size, which is more difficult and will result in larger groups.

Therefore a guy that shoots 2" groups when aiming at a small target circle would have a hard time doing the same if that circle were 9", or the size of an animals vital area.

When shooting at game animals, if you cannot find a defined spot inside the vital circle to shoot at, then you need to first find the vital circle and then attempt to center your aim in that vital circle. 

The latter is much more difficult, and another solid reason why shooting whatever group size on the target range hardly translates into doing the same in the field when shooting at game animals.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Lonestar63 said:


> My 50 yard group.
> I've got a little work to do......:embara:


Hi Jack. That's too funny! I'm sure that is just a joke, isn't it?
If not, I'm coming over to help you tune your bow.
We can get a better group than that at 90 yards with your set-up - at least all arrows within 6 inches of your bulls eye.

Ray


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## wrench2nr (Feb 5, 2010)

i only shoot 3 arrows at a time to help prevent tearing up arrows. you cannot get tight groups until you get a consistant set of anchor points and use them. every shot should look and feel the same. have a good shooter watch you shoot to see your form. I try 1 inch per 10 yrds. 

your bow tuning and arrow setup play a roll in all you do.


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## killahog (Feb 21, 2005)

*Hunting groups*

I would suggest you get good enough to hold within 1/2 of the kill zone of your prey. Don't worry about becoming an expert archer this early, I know where you hunt and you would be better served focusing on what ridges have mast and pattering the deer. I hunt deerfield, craigsville, churchville and buffalo gap. what im saying is make sure you spend enough time to get within bow range and I consider that 20-30 yards for whitetail.


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## wicked1Joe (May 19, 2009)

NaturesEcho said:


> This is my rule of thumb:
> 
> 2" at 20 yards
> 3" at 30 yards
> ...


This is about right....

I like it!


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

This is a good bowhunting group.










marty


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## cptleo1 (May 30, 2007)

skulley said:


> find yourself a qualified shooter and have them teach you how to shoot. proper bow w/ proper form. then worry about grouping


THIS is the best advice I have seen here.

If at all possible, find a real instructor.

The bad lessons you teach yourself in the beginning can take years to undo.

You CANNOT learn to shoot on the internet

Learn the basics and get them down cold - accuracy will come on its own.

In the beginning keep your practice sessions short.

You are much better off taking 12 really good practice shots than 50 1/2 ass-ed ones - slowly build your number of shots and try and end them on a good note.

Fatigue actually sets in long before you notice it.

Building muscle memory takes time and is very important.

As far as 4 out of 5 being a group - WRONG - That flier shows a breakdown in form or concentration.

Archery is a great sport, it is just a lot easier to learn it once.

Keep us posted - Good Luck


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

Lonestar63 said:


> My 50 yard group.
> 
> I've got a little work to do......:embara:


Those other hot shots will buying new bags you'll be able to spend your money on beer.


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## JDS-1 (Nov 15, 2007)

*Paperplate works...*



bathcountybuck said:


> just got my first bow yesterday and i was wondering what good grouping for bow hunting?


If you can put ALL your arrows in a 8" paperplate, then you are ready to hunt. That being said I shoot about a 5-6" group at 50 yds with both field tips and broadheads. The reason for paperplate is because the simple fact that a animals vital area (lungs) measure about 12"x8" (or close to it) The lung area is a big target and even if you get a high lungs shot or low shot the broadhead will still cut enough to do damage. Just like balloons, if you barley cut a small section of them at the edge what happens?? Air leaks out reguarless, so having to hit perfectly centered on the lungs of a animal... not true at all. I've shot lots of deer high, low, left, right of center and I have yet to loose a animal or have them run more than 100 yds.


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## HuntWhenever (Jan 4, 2010)

zap said:


> This is a good bowhunting group.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see any arrow wounds on those, Marty. I'll assume those were all hit with cars.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

HuntWhenever said:


> I don't see any arrow wounds on those, Marty. I'll assume those were all hit with cars.



Oh-oh, my secrets out.:shhh:

marty


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## HuntWhenever (Jan 4, 2010)

zap said:


> Oh-oh, my secrets out.:shhh:
> 
> marty


Oh well, at least you get "Creativity Credit" for laying your bow over them before taking the picture.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

:smile:



















marty


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## HuntWhenever (Jan 4, 2010)

The things people will photoshop these days....



Nice set of kills there, Marty!


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## MNmike (Dec 27, 2003)

*thank O'Lefty*



OldLefty said:


> I rarely consider posting and usually only do so on "lighthearted" threads. This one, however, has really gotten my dander up.
> 
> I truly admire someone who can handle a bow really well. I have been flinging arrows since the early 1960's and I have always struggled to shoot what I consider well. I have experienced about every shooting fault known to archery and I've conquered a few along the way.
> 
> ...


You saved me alot of typing.:darkbeer:


And to the newb....welcome!


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## ncnat (Feb 15, 2010)

The rule we use at my house is we will hunt as far as we can keep 5 arrows in a 3" group. I figure that the groups will open up when the deer steps into range. I don't want to spend all my time tracking deer since I am the tracker for the wife and kid.


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## shootthebunnies (Apr 23, 2010)

This thread answered a lot my questions too. Thanks guys


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## jmm83164 (Sep 29, 2008)

*Grouping and a trick*

Most of my groups at 20 and under are about 4 inches outside to outside.
At 30 they open up to 5 or a little better.
If you shoot a multi pin sight this trick will help alot it did me.
Take shoestring black works best on most bag targets tie seeveral small peices of colored cloth into it about 6 inches apart.hand it down your target face .shoot at the knot not the cloth.When you aim make sure you sight pins line up on the string this will help you stop torqueing and teach you to keep bow level. . This little gimmick will really help you tightten your groups laterally .
Mike


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## patrick lester (Jan 14, 2008)

i dont know how everybody feels about it but for hunting purposes you might want to pay att to the first arrow you shoot everytime you practice.. thats the only one that counts when your hunting.


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## HuntWhenever (Jan 4, 2010)

patrick lester said:


> i dont know how everybody feels about it but for hunting purposes you might want to pay att to the first arrow you shoot everytime you practice.. thats the only one that counts when your hunting.


That's exactly why I like 3D so much. Its a one-arrow sport.


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## Jwillman6 (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm hoping to get 6"groups at 80 under calm conditions. I'm not doing it now and this may be a bit optimistic for me.


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## Jwillman6 (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm shooting for 6" groups at 80 yards with field tips under calm conditions. This may be a bit optimistic for me, but this is shooting for. If I can do this I think I will be good enough for shots of 60 yards with broadheads under calm conditions.


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## whitewolf1 (Jun 28, 2006)

patrick lester said:


> i dont know how everybody feels about it but for hunting purposes you might want to pay att to the first arrow you shoot everytime you practice.. thats the only one that counts when your hunting.



Couldnt agree more. Last month before and practice during the season is one arrow at 4 or 5 different distances. I only shoot more than that if accuracy starts waning and that is using a 4" spot.


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

Like this???

Thats 30 & 40 yards.


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

This is 20 yards. Keep in mind I was aiming low not missing low. I dont want to wear out another core this early.


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

zap said:


> :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeayh Marty, Cherry Snow Cones!


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

Drawin Deadly said:


> Like this???
> 
> Thats 30 & 40 yards.



Your flirting with all six missing the heart, but I'm gonna give ya 2 out of 6.

Your batting .333 kid, and that aint bad.......:darkbeer:


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## 3dn4jc (Jun 25, 2007)

Lonestar63 said:


> Your flirting with all six missing the heart, but I'm gonna give ya 2 out of 6.
> 
> Your batting .333 kid, and that aint bad.......:darkbeer:


A couple inches to the left he'll be in the money.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I like the 4" rule*

Whatever you range you can consistanly put your arrows into a 4" circle.


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## Seabee99 (Jan 4, 2010)

Yeah right, if you can shoot 1 inch per 10 yards you are guaranteed not to miss until at least 80 or 90 yards. Honestly, you can't determine what distance you can shoot until a particular circumstance is presented. You could have a general idea. For example I know that I would never attempt a shot greater than 50 yards. I have been in a tree for 5 hours at 8 degrees with a 25-30 mph wind, and my range was 20 or less. Don't get too hung up on group sizes. Just practice as often as you can at the greatest distance you can. I do the majority of my practicing at 40 or 50 yards, and 20 seems like a chip shot after shooting 50 all the time. I have killed a deer at 48 yards, but everything was just right or I would not have attempted the shot. Just keep practicing! Stress and doubt are what causes misses!


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## QuietMan (Mar 25, 2009)

Welcome to archery...This will be my second season with a bow and I know that all the robin hood talk and group size can seem intimidating at first. Put that out of your head and practice to the best of your ability and your ability will improve quicker than you think. I satrted out shooting only 15-20 shots a day at about 15 yards. I still only shoot about that many, it's about quality practice not quantity. 
If you start getting tired, especially if you are new to archery that bow gets heavy very quickly, then you will develop bad habits and start flinging arrows all over the place.
For the record I can hold a 2-3" group out to 30 yards concistantly, ( BH and FP) that is as far as I can practice in my yard. That's not to intimidate, it's meant to show that with a little practice over a period of time your skill level will improve.
Best of luck...Any other questions keep them coming...


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

A deer usually won't stand there and let you shoot a group at them... 

I say if you can put a single arrow inside a 6" diameter circle... every time at whatever distance... that is your max distance that you should even consider consider a shot in the most perfect conditions.

I like to walk around the yard, with the target static and guess my yardage, then rangefind it to see how close my guess was... and take a shot. Move and repeat.

I can hit that 6" diameter circle out to 40 yards consistently... 50 yards... not always... so 40 is my MAX distance for shot consideration, for now.


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## 45er (Jan 18, 2009)

*There is some good advice here, and some not so good.......*

.......however, in the end, until you get a shot at a game animal and put the arrow where you want it, you'll NEVER know what level of archery skills you will need to be an efficient bowhunter. You may practice, practice and practice until 4" groups at 40 yards are routine for you, and get so rattled when that buck stands there at 20 yards that you couldn't hit it with all five arrows in your quiver.

Conversely, you may never develop good target skills but make up for it by never taking shots over 20 yards and being "cool as a cucumber" when it's hair, not paper, you're shooting at.

I thought "skyhunter's" post was one of the best in that until you practice under conditions similar to how you hunt, you won't know how well you can place arrows in the kill zone. 

Here's my self-imposed criterion. I shoot about 50 arrows every day at "deer targets". I don't shoot beyond 50 yards and I put 6-7 out of 9 arrows in the heart-lung area, and very rarely completely miss the deer. So, I will NEVER shoot at a deer beyond 35 yards, max, and I'd rather shoot 'em at 15!

Good luck to you.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

While I agree that the 2" at 20 yds and 7" at 70 yds is maybe a good rule of thumb for being an pretty good shot, I just wonder if the implication is that if you can hold a 7" group at 70 yards then you are good to go on deer at 70. If a 7" group is sufficient for deer then why is a 7" group at 20 yards not adequate? Just askin....


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## WEEGEE (Oct 13, 2007)

welcome to AT.

whatever you do don't listen to the internet legends who talk about their 2 inch groups at 50 yards. The overwhelming majority of archers can't shoot like that.

THATS VERY TRUE they are better on the keyboards.

if you shoot one arrow with no warmups each day at a given distance,for a week thats your group.
try it .one shot and only one shot each day and mark that hit on your target .if your going to practice it's your first shot that counts

because in the hunting world that's the way it'll be!


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## Gary in Ohio (Jun 29, 2009)

*While your total group size is important...*

the most important thing is how accurately you can shoot with that first arrow.


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## skyhunter (Dec 1, 2003)

Barehunter said:


> If a 7" group is sufficient for deer then why is a 7" group at 20 yards not adequate? Just askin....


Because shooting in a real hunting situation with other variables like layers of clothes, animal movement, and weather will open up that group quite a bit.

Therefore a 7" group at 20 yards in a practice secession under controlled conditions is not very good shooting, and will not hold up when hunting type variables make the real life shot a lot harder.

On the other hand, a guy that shoots a 2" group at 20 yards in practice, has a better chance of shooting a 7" group at 20 under real conditions, when a host of other challenging variables might enter into play.


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## lefty o (Jul 14, 2004)

the last few post's are pretty good. thru this thread some people are stupidly unrealistic!
Hunting is not target shooting! you do not get practice shots, you most likely dont know the range, you dont get time to relax/breath/get your rhythem! hunting is making 1 shot count, not shooting groups at paper or foam targets.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

Yeah...guess I was just playin' "devil's advocate". I'd hate to think somebody with a 7" group at 20 yards would be shooting at game at 20, but don't think somebody that shoots a 7" group at 70 yards needs to be shooting at game at 70 either. 

As an aside, I wonder what the consensus is for a definition of a "consistent" group: I mean all of us that are human shoots a really bad one from time to time....when someone says they can consistently hold a a 2" group at 20 yards, is that 9 out of 10 or 99 out of 100? Just thinkin' out loud...I know it is subjective.





skyhunter said:


> Because shooting in a real hunting situation with other variables like layers of clothes, animal movement, and weather will open up that group quite a bit.
> 
> Therefore a 7" group at 20 yards in a practice secession under controlled conditions is not very good shooting, and will not hold up when hunting type variables make the real life shot a lot harder.
> 
> On the other hand, a guy that shoots a 2" group at 20 yards in practice, has a better chance of shooting a 7" group at 20 under real conditions, when a host of other challenging variables might enter into play.


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## lucky buck (Apr 12, 2008)

I was told once, and I admit that I don't know if it's true, that the average kill for a Pope and Young whitetail was 17 yards. If you can keep it in the kill zone at 20 yards on a 3d target then you should be good to go.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

lucky buck said:


> I was told once, and I admit that I don't know if it's true, that the average kill for a Pope and Young whitetail was 17 yards. If you can keep it in the kill zone at 20 yards on a 3d target then you should be good to go.


My average shot distance for way over a hundred deer is 11 yards.


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## QuietMan (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey I'll fess up as good as I can group them at 30 yards I had a miss on my last shot today...The entire 18" target was missed:embara:...finger tripped the release before I was ready...I AM NOT ROBIN HOOD or WILLIAM TELL...:laugh:


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## eyebrowcounter (Mar 15, 2009)

skyhunter said:


> All these quotes don't mean a hill of beans if you don't practice shooting these groups in situations that as closely as possible mimic a real hunting type scenario.
> Before these numbers can really translate to the field, you need to do a number of things first:
> 
> 1) put your gear on
> ...


This is good advise, but before you throw these kinds of variables into your shooting as skyhunter stated just make sure you have your form and a good mind set in place first. I repeat this cause it's worth repeating.


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## Hoyt Havoc (Jul 27, 2006)

I love having shots 20 yds and in. I've killed out to 50 but thats almost to far in the woods I hunt 95% of the time. Maybe out west I'd shoot further. I practice at 50 with my 60 and 70 pound bows and some days I'm tight with 3-4" groups or ocasionally better and some days 6-8". Wind and coffee may have some todo with that. Today I shot for a few hours and was doing pretty good with all 3 of my rigs. My 50 pound bow only has 20 and 30 yd pins. I shot a 3 arrow, 40yd group that was about 2" by holding the 30 pin 7-8" above the bullseye. But that's after a few hours of shooting so my form was dialed. After sitting in a stand and getting excited that your about to take a shot at a deer is going to make it different than just shooting a bag target. Just beacuase I shot some nice groups over summer doesn't mean I'm automatic and can make a 50 yd shot between 2 trees, just below that limb, and right into the crease. Everyone's max distance, group size is going to be different. 30 and in, I'm taking the shot with any of my bows. anything further with the 2 heavier bows is dependant upon the given circumstances. Just have fun practicing and learning your capabilities.


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## eyebrowcounter (Mar 15, 2009)

patrick lester said:


> i dont know how everybody feels about it but for hunting purposes you might want to pay att to the first arrow you shoot everytime you practice.. thats the only one that counts when your hunting.


:set1_applaud:


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## RangerJ (Apr 5, 2009)

Lonestar63 said:


> My 50 yard group.
> 
> I've got a little work to do......:embara:


Looks like my 30 yard groups (lol)


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## azscorpion (Feb 12, 2010)

1" groups per 10 yards in full gear and hunting conditions


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## Krealitygroup (Dec 18, 2012)

I shoot a bright duct tape square 1.88 inches. I can group within that at 20 yards.


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## Stringjumper (Oct 14, 2015)

birdman said:


> Since no one else has said it,welcome to AT and the world of archery...archery is all about form..getting anchored right everytime and not punching the release....i wouldnt worry all that much about group size to start with but rather work on your form....also dont try to hold your pin dead on your spot.its going to float a little and if you try to hold rock solid all you will do is get a good case of target panic and punch your release and jerk your bow...no one expects you to shoot X's at 20 yards so dont....just remember its the very first arrow that kills,its rare you ever get do overs in the field....take your time and practice a little everyday..if you do 12 arrows a day and get a 6" group at 20 yards then step back to 30 yards and get a 6 " group..when you do that then go back to 40yards...the longer the distance you shoot the more defects in your form will show...its all about form...dont be afraid of 40 or 50 yard practice...practice long and hunt short...once you get 6" groups at 50yards then when you step up to 20yards your going to be busting knocks on your arrows...a word of advice,dont shoot 2 arrows at the same spot unless you want damaged arrows...good luck and enjoy the sport...JMO


I got into bow hard core last year and alot of you guys said and made good points. however i truly believe that the above is the best advice for starting out and making it to the butcher. In 3D and indoor comps, sure, 2" at 20.....4"@40 are possible, but clothing, wind, temperature, and the all forgoten buck fever. practice practice practice. that gets dinner in the freezer or X's on the cards. Good luck


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## alzzaco (Aug 24, 2015)

Up here in canada, province of quebec, in order to get your bow hunting license you need to shoot 4 or 5 (been 10yrs so I don't remember) arrows at multiple distance in a 3d target and hit the vitals. 10yds bear, 15yds doe, 20 yds buck, 30 yds young moose. You get one shot at each and can only miss one to pass. 

I can't believe with modern bows so many people failed.


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## alawrence (Feb 26, 2013)

If your able to group your arrows while hunting, the critter is already dead! If you can hit an eight inch circle, behind the animals shoulder, consistently at whatever yardage your shooting, you are good enough to kill with a bow.


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## woodslife (Jun 2, 2011)

2"-3" at 20 yards. That means it will be 4"-5"shooting a live animaI. However, I tell all new archers to be confident but not necessarily satisfied. Always strive to improve your shooting. Good enough to go hunting should not be your goal. I can have anyone doing that with modern equipment in a few hours. Your goal should be to educate yourself and continue to improve your shooting. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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