# better than shibuya?



## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

im about to order a new shibuya ultima. 

i have shot copper john, shibuya, toxonics and surlock contender.

the shibuya is by far my favorite for overall quietness (no noise at all).

i know the windage unit is more expensive but that is not an issue for me as i wont get another one (just shoot as a hobby, not for competition).


is the surlock quest-x much of an upgrade from the condender? can you compare it to the shibuya?


how about other sights such as the agf tip turn , arc systems sx200, bernardini freedom sight (the one with the big threaded vertical adjustment bolt) or the axcell4500 recurve sight?



i will most likely stick with shibuya but just wanted to hear comments on some of the others especially if you have compared them to the shibuya ultima. 


thanks.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I consider the Shibuya ultima and the Sureloc top recurve sights to be at the top of the heap.  I have used both for many years. The advantage of the Sure loc is quick aperture changes-which is an advantage in tough field courses where you might bust an aperture-thus I use SL when I was a serious field archer since I could carry a couple extra apertures in the holders. I use the Ultima for most other things. For compounds Sureloc is the only sight I use. Its also the only sight I use on TNC xbows-I like the cheaper version with the loc down. A sureloc challenger was what my student Brent Hankins used to set the NFAA record and win two world championships.


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## Chinese Tea (Mar 17, 2010)

You weren't kidding about the Bernardini Freedom sight having a big threaded rod! Pretty crazy stuff.
If anyone was curious (I was), found it on this thread-
http://www.archery-interchange.net/f278/bernardini-freedom-sight-13680


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

What Jim C said. 

The Shibuya Ultima and Sure Loc Quest-X are both world class sights that each have different features. Comes down to which features you find most important IMO. 

John


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

IMHO, the Copper John ANT II has been the best target sight ever made. Unfortunately discontinued because too expensive to make in comparison to the retail price, I just hope soon or later it will be back. 

Sights all suffer from same problems: vibrations make the elevation part loose to the vertical support, and they become noisy and, worse than this, unstable after some time. So, to choose the perfect size you should look to sights on your friend's bows used for one year at least, and check how the mobile part holding the aperture can be moved by hand even if theoretically blocked. Almost all sights move, but very few. My daughter is shooting the ANT II since more than 6 years with no problems, and I'm using an old ANT II used before by Michele for years already, that stil has no vibration or movements at all. 

Then, another criterium to choose a sight is to check how much you can move the aperture horizontally without using tools. It does not look such an important feature, until you get in a very strong cross wind and you will find you can't move sigh on side anymore... In this situation, the Shibuya Ultima is one with the most limited excursion, and I still question myself why manufacturer has not fixed this critical point on a sight that for all other aspects is almost perfect.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and I still question myself why manufacturer has not fixed this critical point on a sight that for all other aspects is almost perfect.


I completely agree. Having to find an allen wrench to adjust the aperture windage, or remove the aperture, is not convenient at all. This is why I still continue to use my Sure-loc's. 

John


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

Vittorio said:


> Then, another criterium to choose a sight is to check how much you can move the aperture horizontally without using tools. It does not look such an important feature, until you get in a very strong cross wind and you will find you can't move sigh on side anymore... In this situation, the Shibuya Ultima is one with the most limited excursion, and I still question myself why manufacturer has not fixed this critical point on a sight that for all other aspects is almost perfect.


I thought it was just me that had that problem with the Shibuya!


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

ryan b. said:


> -----or the axcell4500 recurve sight?.....


My son's using the Axel since Ant II has been discontinued, and he is quite happy with it. Comparing to the Copper John, side movement x 1 click is equivalent, vertical one is double (1 click for the Axel = 2 click for the Copper John). Nothing loose after some tens of thousands shots already.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I have a copper john ants 2 ill sell any of you guys. I switched to shibuya


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## juancurbina (Mar 24, 2011)

Shibuya is the best hands down.


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

I've switched to Axcel on both my compound and recurve. I use the AX 4500 on my HPX and it is a VERY SOLID sight. It's not super heavy either and it clicks very smoothly. Can't say enough good things about the Axcel sights.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

i am definitely in favor of the shibuya over the copper john. 

thare1774, have you shot a shibuya to compare against the axcel?


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## aaronthesun (Oct 13, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> IMHO, the Copper John ANT II has been the best target sight ever made. Unfortunately discontinued because too expensive to make in comparison to the retail price, I just hope soon or later it will be back.


I love my ANTS Evo II. Felt more solid than my friends' sure-loc and shibuya compound sights, and just a touch lighter than the Axcel.


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

I have, and though they were both great sights I like AX 4500 better. Not because of shooting performance, because as I said they are both great. It has more to do with feeling. I like the feeling if the adjustment better and it just feels so Friggin solid. It's just a clean solid sight


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

thare1774 said:


> I have, and though they were both great sights I like AX 4500 better. Not because of shooting performance, because as I said they are both great. It has more to do with feeling. I like the feeling if the adjustment better and it just feels so Friggin solid. It's just a clean solid sight


Nice. I like that review.anything that has a nicer feel or function compared to the shibuya must be quite a sight add doing something right


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## Spear4573 (Apr 21, 2012)

Just thought I would pitch in my 10 cents worth. I have compared both the Shibuya and Axcel sights as I'm currently in the market to purchase a good competition sight and scope. My local dealer is rather partial to Axcel, but I did insist upon looking at both (plus a Sur-Loc and CBE for that matter). I have been impressed with all the quality of all of them, but I have to admit the Axcel did take my #1 choice. 

In a nutshell, let the sight pick you. Hope that makes sense? Go with your gut, do some research, and don't go super cheap. 

Happy shooting, my friend.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i use the sure-loc supreme with a recurve aperture block.....superb!!


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> My son's using the Axel since Ant II has been discontinued, and he is quite happy with it. Comparing to the Copper John, side movement x 1 click is equivalent, vertical one is double (1 click for the Axel = 2 click for the Copper John). Nothing loose after some tens of thousands shots already.


Hi Vittorio what was Michele reasoning of choosing the Axel sight and what sights did he look at? also what was the reason for not choosing the other sights like sure-loc?


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## juancurbina (Mar 24, 2011)

Acehero said:


> I thought it was just me that had that problem with the Shibuya!


You might be using the additional block, otherwise the Shibuya sight is a perfect scope. The the horizontal travel is enough under any circumstance UNLESS you are shooting at 20 mts or shorter distance. Put Sur-Loc and Shibuya on a table and check their components and you will soon realize the difference in quality.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Beiter's plunger is the Cadillac of plungers for superb engineering design-manufacture/precision/durability - I'm surprised they don't make a complete sight. It seems like a natural for them.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

DWAA Archer said:


> Hi Vittorio what was Michele reasoning of choosing the Axel sight and what sights did he look at? also what was the reason for not choosing the other sights like sure-loc?


Axel offered a 4500 sight to test to Michele, and he as found it to be a good replacemnt for his old Ant II .. that's all.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Vittorio said:


> Then, another criterium to choose a sight is to check how much you can move the aperture horizontally without using tools. It does not look such an important feature, until you get in a very strong cross wind and you will find you can't move sigh on side anymore... In this situation, the Shibuya Ultima is one with the most limited excursion, and I still question myself why manufacturer has not fixed this critical point on a sight that for all other aspects is almost perfect.


Vittoro, how much room for windage movement would be considered acceptable? The Ultima has a windage adjustment allowance of 5.5mm, and the Dual Click has 6.5mm.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> Vittoro, how much room for windage movement would be considered acceptable? The Ultima has a windage adjustment allowance of 5.5mm, and the Dual Click has 6.5mm.


One option is to get the compound version of the Ultima and just use that. It's got a lot more windage adjustment than the recurve sight block. You'll need your favorite pin/ring available in a 10-32 thread size, but it'll work. Thats how I'm using mine on my compound setup for Bowhunter class, with an Infitec sight ring....

DM


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I've tried most and owned a bunch. My personal favourite of all time is dual click extreme, but that's not probably for most peoples taste. Shibuya Ultima is what I've shot most for recurve and Copper-John ANTS 2 compound. Copper-John was almost as good as Shibuya, but it got very stiff to adjust over time, even cleaning didn't help much.

I've seen Axcel sight fail after very short time, but I've seen monday versions of most other sights too (not really of Shibuyas tho), so probably shouldn't put much into it. I don't think I've seen a completely broken Shibuya sight ever, worst was one which had the sight pin tightened with pliers, completely breaking the housing and other bits, but even that was repairable with replacement parts and 5min job. Sometimes people trip on bows and you might break the sight arm, but out of 100's I'm not sure if I've seen an actual breakage. I've definetely seen Sure Locs, Axcels, Arc Systemes, Angel's, Spigarellis etc. break with use.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

With my ultima I switched the allen screw for a thumb screw enabling additional windage movement without any tools.

I previously shot a win win sight that had this feature so it seemed a no brainer when I switched.


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