# Dead on at 20 yards but.....



## Wild Thing1 (Feb 28, 2018)

Move your arrow rest in the opposite direction I believe...Do a search on "Walk-Back Tuning".


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## hrd bull (Feb 18, 2007)

Does your sight have a second and third axis adjustment, if so did you level them.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

No it doesn’t have a second and third axis, it just moves left right up down. It’s a 30-06 four pin sight with a whisker biscuit


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## azscorpion (Feb 12, 2010)

check you bubble for hand torque


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

The funny thing is I moved my sight a tiny bit to the left and no changes, still dead on at 20 every time and to the left at further out. Bow has been paper tuned recently.(Mathews chill x) 340 spine 100 grain practice tip


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

check you bubble for hand torque

Bubble seems perfect out to 40 but for some reason having trouble with it at 50 , can’t figure out why I’m using same mechanics at 20yards


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

if I move my rest that will take the bow out of tune right, don’t think I wanna try that


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## Wild Thing1 (Feb 28, 2018)

Discipline12 $ said:


> The funny thing is I moved my sight a tiny bit to the left and no changes, still dead on at 20 every time and to the left at further out. Bow has been paper tuned recently.(Mathews chill x) 340 spine 100 grain practice tip


Try moving your arrow rest slightly to the right.


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## Wild Thing1 (Feb 28, 2018)

Discipline12 $ said:


> if I move my rest that will take the bow out of tune right, don’t think I wanna try that



What is most important to you - grouping the same at 20-30-40 and 50 yards or having perfect tears in the paper? I had the same issue tuning my new bow and corrected it with walk-back tuning rather than worrying about paper tears. Paper tuning is a good starting point IMO. Grouping the same at various distances goes beyond that.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I’m not sure if I should move my rest, it’s paper tuned perfect. Tech at the bow shop moved the rest when tuning?


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## RickB4 (Apr 18, 2013)

When I set a bow up I shoot and tune until I get a bullet then I walk back tune 20 to 60 yards. When I walk back tune I make minor adjustments to my rest. Paper tunning can be over thought in my opinion but a good place to start. I paper tune up to 18 yards cuz that's what I have in my basement. I usually only have minor adjustments needed to my rest location


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I’m not saying you are wrong I would just like a second opinion, I would hate to move the rest if the problem lies in form


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## redlab (Aug 6, 2011)

If you are torquing your bow when you paper tune it you might have it adjusted to shoot bullet holes but it might not actually be tuned correctly ! I did the french walk back tuning and it worked great ! paper tuning is just a starting point and a lot of that goes by form ! just my $.02


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## RickB4 (Apr 18, 2013)

This is a great statement form can really impair your point of impact. Master ur grip and form first. Due some research on grip


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## hrd bull (Feb 18, 2007)

I would see what the level is doing at full draw at a steep angle if it is off try shimming the sight to bubble the 3rd axis since it doesn't have the adjustment. Have shimmed several to bubble out correctly. If sight is not square it will cause a canting type situation and it gets more noticeable the further out you go usually.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

If your center shot on your rest is off it will hit perfect at 20yds. Then at 30 it will be off at 40 it will be off more and at 50 it will be off even more. The farther back you go the farther off it will be if the center shot on the rest isn’t set right.

Mark the rest and move it a little bit and see if it helps. If it don’t move it back. No Probablem


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

Ok, should I move it to the right or left? I’m thinking to the right?


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

What do you mean by a steep angle?


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## hrd bull (Feb 18, 2007)

Extreme down at full draw usually.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Discipline12 $ said:


> check you bubble for hand torque
> 
> Bubble seems perfect out to 40 but for some reason having trouble with it at 50 , can’t figure out why I’m using same mechanics at 20yards



If your bubble is good out to 40 and off at 50, you aren't using the same mechanics, bubble doesn't care how far out the target is. Guessing herein is the answer to your problem, some sort of TP from trying too hard at longer distances, or perhaps it's how your pin covers the bullseye, but most certainly an inconsistency between shorter and longer distances.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Mark you’re rest with marker or something so you can move it back if you need too. If your hitting to the left move your rest a little to the right and see if it helps. It shouldn’t take very much.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Try a larger target, like a 122cm, or a blank paper plate, at 50 yards and see what happens.


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> if I move my rest that will take the bow out of tune right, don’t think I wanna try that


Your bow is not in "TUNE". French Tuning will get you close, providing you are shooting the correct spine. Then when you go to broad heads you may have to slightly tune the rest a tweak or two more. Being in tune means the bow is tuned to you as well.


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> Ok, should I move it to the right or left? I’m thinking to the right?


To the right. Did you shoot the bow through paper or did the bow technician? Shooting through paper is only one step. And generally one I never use. Instead, bare shaft tuning, french tuning, walk back tuning, then broad head tuning. Shooting through paper at 3 feet is not tuning.


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## jfin4480 (May 4, 2015)

Look up French tuning on youtube and do that, it will get you straitened out. I agree with everyone else on this one paper gets you close, some sort of French or walk back tune gets it perfect!


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

Ok so I moved my rest to the right and I was still dead on at 20 yards, but then I was shooting to the right instead of the left at 40 and 50. 30 wasn’t much different than 20. So does this mean it’s not the rest?
I held the bow at an extreme angle like the one guy suggested and the bubble went all the way over to the left but the bow was still level?
Does this mean at fifty yards when I was trying to fight the bow to get the bubble right (pre moving the rest)that maybe it wasn’t me because the bow was angled up?
Do I need a sight with second and third axis leveling or should I just not pay the level any attention at 40 & 50?
Or do I need to shim the sight? I’m not sure how to do that?


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## leterflyagain (Jul 30, 2011)

So... u moved it too far


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## leterflyagain (Jul 30, 2011)

Or maybe just enough but need to move sight back where it was


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I guess I could have moved it to far but I barely... moved it. If I hadn’t made a mark on where it was it would’ve been hard to tell I moved it


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I didn’t move it enough to make a difference at 20, and just barely to the right at 30.

40 & 50 are the problem and the sight level acts funny at those yardage’s.
I feel like I’m using the same mechanics at 50 as 20 but at 50 I have to manipulate the bow to get the bubble in center. 20,30 no problem?


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## leterflyagain (Jul 30, 2011)

Forget the bubble for a shot or two at 50. What happens?


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Maybe we ought to back up a bit and see what bow your shooting, what poundage, what draw, and what spine arrows?


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I’m gonna try that very shortly, waiting on wifey to get back(babysitting)


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

Ok I’m soothing a 2015 Mathew chill x set at 68.8 pounds. 340 spine gold tip arrows 100 grains practice tip.
Threadz strings, carter wise choice release.
4 pin 30-06 sight, whisker biscuit arrow rest, 8 inch stabilizer.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

And 30 inch draw


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Well if a slight rest change moved your group from left to right, it doesn't sound like a significant torque issue. If you have a bow with yokes, you would be wise to look up threads or converse with folks who understand which yoke leg to twist to get your arrow flight right on at all distances. Padgett shoots a Bowtech and is very knowledgable on yoke tuning. Just type in that name on a PM and he will get back with you.....typically within a day. If your shooting a binary, it could be a shim issue or possibly the sight axis as previously mentioned.


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> Ok I’m soothing a 2015 Mathew chill x set at 68.8 pounds. 340 spine gold tip arrows 100 grains practice tip.
> Threadz strings, carter wise choice release.
> 4 pin 30-06 sight, whisker biscuit arrow rest, 8 inch stabilizer.


Draw length??? Arrow length??? If your arrows or draw are over 28 inches you are under spined. You may get those arrow to fly but you will be fighting it again with broad heads.


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> And 30 inch draw


Way underspined!!!! You have to have the correct spine to tune a bow correctly. Kind of what I expected.

https://www.goldtip.com/Resources/Spine-Chart.aspx


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## trucker3573 (Feb 14, 2010)

westksbowhunter said:


> Way underspined!!!! You have to have the correct spine to tune a bow correctly. Kind of what I expected.
> 
> https://www.goldtip.com/Resources/Spine-Chart.aspx


Agree, under spined with that long of a draw length.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

trucker3573 said:


> Agree, under spined with that long of a draw length.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


That is usually how these threads start. Everyone offering advice without finding out what the most important thing is, the "ARROW". I tune both, arrows and bows, to shoot the most effective set up.


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## leterflyagain (Jul 30, 2011)

Yep I agree. Underspined. But If you can't get new arrows
Right now you can still get field points to fly fine to 50 to keep shooting but you'll definately want to switch soon as ya can


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

2 things Pro Shops are good for: 1. Paper Tuning 2. Selling under spine arrows


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

What do you guys recommend? 400 spine?
Should I go full length on my arrows or have them cut? They are 30 & 3/4 from knock to insert.
Any other suggestions, I’m all ears. Thanks for the replies.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

God almighty 400 is an even weaker spine bro......


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> What do you guys recommend? 400 spine?
> Should I go full length on my arrows or have them cut? They are 30 & 3/4 from knock to insert.
> Any other suggestions, I’m all ears. Thanks for the replies.


300 spine. Call Jerry at South Shore Archery, he will get you the right arrows. Sorry for the bad news, but I have been on here long enough to know that most posters have an incorrect spine. Most are shooting a draw length too long as well. These are usually the first 2 to things to check when someone can not get their bow to shoot well. Then the AT guru's will tell you to start "Yoke Tuning". 99% of all bows don't need yolk tuning. What they need are the correct spine, correct draw length, correct center shot, correct nock height, and good shooter form.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I saw a review I the chill x with dan McCarthy and he said the chill x like a softer spine, he was using a 400 spine with 120 in the front? 
Recommendations? I’m new gimme a break!!


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## Supersteeb (Mar 4, 2015)

Do some French tuning to get your center shot dead on. Then move on to getting your pins set.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

And I’m not your bro...


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Discipline12 $ said:


> What do you guys recommend? 400 spine?
> Should I go full length on my arrows or have them cut? They are 30 & 3/4 from knock to insert.
> Any other suggestions, I’m all ears. Thanks for the replies.


You should be able to cut an inch to 1.5" off your arrows. Do that to a few and see if that cleans things up. You could also try a lighter tip. I wouldn't spend the $$ for new arrows until you determine that is the issue


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I saw a review I the chill x with dan McCarthy and he said the chill x like a softer spine, he was using a 400 spine with 120 in the front?
> Recommendations? I’m new gimme a break!!


Start with your center shot set at 3/4 and set your arrow level running through the center of berger hole. Personally I would back that bow down 2 full turns to help out with the spine. Then start French tuning to get your center shot dialed in. I probably would not run out and buy new arrows just yet especially if you are new to archery. Do a search for French Tuning.


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## weldermike70 (Nov 30, 2016)

In my experience esp with micro click adjustments on everything there is plenty more room for adjustment on everything up, down, left and right. Keep moving your sight at fifty till your arrows move, then go back a little till its dead on, then check it at twenty and see how it goes. Then just keep splitting the difference. Shooting on level ground goes a long way too. your bubble is like a gps, listen to it, it's usually right


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I saw a review I the chill x with dan McCarthy and he said the chill x like a softer spine, he was using a 400 spine with 120 in the front?
> Recommendations? I’m new gimme a break!!


Dan has a 27.5" draw length, so he can make the 400 act stiffer by cutting them short. With your 30" draw, you need to shoot a little stiffer spine or cut you arrows shorter. 

Couple guys mentioned french tuning. That along with a couple of arrows cut down should help.


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

French tune or walk back tune will correct this issue. YouTube French tuning........


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I can’t cut them much shorter , but they have been cut. They are 30 3/4 now. If I back the weight off 2 full turns approximately what weight would that be?
68.8 is where it is now and it’s a little too much, my shoulder is sore after shooting 200+ arrows today.
If I back it off 2 full rounds will I be spines correctly and be able to keep my arrows?

Thanks again for all the advice!!


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I can’t cut them much shorter , but they have been cut. They are 30 3/4 now. If I back the weight off 2 full turns approximately what weight would that be?
> 68.8 is where it is now and it’s a little too much, my shoulder is sore after shooting 200+ arrows today.
> If I back it off 2 full rounds will I be spines correctly and be able to keep my arrows?
> 
> Thanks again for all the advice!!


No but it will get you closer. You could probably cut them down to 29 inches and by lowering the draw weight you could get much closer on spine. Just curious did the shop measure you for correct draw length? If it is a 70 lb bow, you can back it off 3 turns. About 3 lbs per turn give or take.


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## Speedykills (Apr 16, 2010)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I’m not sure if I should move my rest, it’s paper tuned perfect. Tech at the bow shop moved the rest when tuning?


Was it you doing the shooting or your tech.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

Yes they measured me out at 31. I bought the bow used so I order 31mods. I thought they were too long so I ordered 30.5, put them on retuned shot it for a few days and decided it was to long. Ordered a 30.0 mod put it on and retuned and it feels a lot better.
My bow guy says Mathews run long so I think my true draw length is 30.5
Wish I had known that before I bought 3 sets of mods lol.


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## Travis12123 (Jul 28, 2012)

Are you matching your peep to the sight ring?


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

The tech did the paper tune shooting


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

Yes my peep is perfect, changed it twice lol.
It’s been a learning experience to say the least.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I have a 2013 Hoyt g3 carbon matrix on the way from eBay. I’m going to set it all the way back to 60 pounds.
What spine arrow should I use for it? Any advice on that bow would also be greatly appreciated.
This archery stuff gets expensive quick !!!


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## Bowfreak (Jul 23, 2002)

Please stop before you do anything. Before you start messing with the rest and before everyone assumes his bow is out of tune. He mentioned he was having a hard time keeping his bubble level. So before he messes with any tuning he needs to make sure his sight is actually level with his bow and string. If it’s not he can move his rest all he wants but that is not fixing the root issue.


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I have a 2013 Hoyt g3 carbon matrix on the way from eBay. I’m going to set it all the way back to 60 pounds.
> What spine arrow should I use for it? Any advice on that bow would also be greatly appreciated.
> This archery stuff gets expensive quick !!!


With your long draw, I would stick with a 300 spine. Just read all you can on french tuning and walk back tuning. Do your research on your bows to understand where to set center shot and how to measure it. Get a level kit to put on your arrow and string and keep your arrows running through the berger hole. Read, read, and then read some more. PM's to the older members on here will get you better advice than posting. Use the "search" bar to research anything you want to learn before posting.

I would also tell you that if you are new to archery, don't worry about shooting at 40 and 50 yds until you are proficient at 20 and 30. I have been bowhunting for 35 years, and never shoot that far anymore. I can't even see the target at 50 yds now.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Your off to a great start.... Good Luck


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

The bow tech guy put a level on everything when he set it up but he didn’t say anything about walk back tuning or anything.
I have a lot to learn, it’s fun though, very addictive!!


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## Glorious (Oct 31, 2016)

Discipline12 $ said:


> Ok I’m soothing a 2015 Mathew chill x set at 68.8 pounds. 340 spine gold tip arrows 100 grains practice tip.


You will be well under sipned my friend with that set-up... Specially with your Draw & Long Arrows. I would recommend to shoot @61lb with with 300spine arrow. If you expect good grouping at longer distances then need to have 130grain Tips (the weight of the tips have effect on Spine). I shoot 300 spine @60lb on my Halon32... but that is with a 5inch Brace & 75% mods.

A good test is to Shoot a Vegas Target at 20-25m with a 300 spine Blank Shaft.... If you can Hit the 10ring your good to go.

A lot of people Increase & Reduce draw weight on the bow to see how the arrow reacts. This method works as well.

So there is NO miracle number as such.... you just need to work with your Bow & Find it's sweet spot.... When you done with that... then you will be spinning, Spine correcting, Clocking & fletching for better performance... It NEVER Ends .. Ha! Ha! 

Always give the Bow what it is asking for & DON'T try to Control the bow with Numbers you will find on the NET. Most times the set-up is only relative to the shooter. as you can see there are a lot of variables. :wink:


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## glitchy (Feb 19, 2018)

Discipline12 $ said:


> [...] but at 30 I’m a couple inches to the left on at least 3 out of 5 shots.


It's not the same arrows every time, is it? (...and if you haven't numbered your arrows, good time to start!)


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4497137

This should help.


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## westksbowhunter (Sep 23, 2002)

Another
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3972642


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Discipline12 $ said:


> if I move my rest that will take the bow out of tune right, don’t think I wanna try that


French tune guy here and I wouldn't move the arrow rest until you've read of French tuning or Walk Back tuning. Okay, you start with using only 1 pin, the same pin through out the tune procedure.



Discipline12 $ said:


> I’m not sure if I should move my rest, it’s paper tuned perfect. Tech at the bow shop moved the rest when tuning?


The tech....Having worked at a box store archery department and 5 years at archery shop I would never paper tune another person bow. I'd have them shoot and I would help. Most aggravating was trying to correct a person's grip and getting them have a well executed shot. What it is even today; Person at the shop paper tunes the bow and (say) it's good and then owner shoots paper and gets a dreadful tear and he blames the shop person...



Discipline12 $ said:


> I’m not saying you are wrong I would just like a second opinion, I would hate to move the rest if the problem lies in form


It could very well be. Here, you need one-on-one with a knowledgeable archer.



Discipline12 $ said:


> The tech did the paper tune shooting


This be wrong. Already noted above.



Discipline12 $ said:


> The bow tech guy put a level on everything when he set it up but he didn’t say anything about walk back tuning or anything.
> I have a lot to learn, it’s fun though, very addictive!!


With the 5 years working at the archery shop I French tuned every new bow sold and every bow that came in for a tune up. People get confused with French and Walk Back tuning. French tuning is done at two distances (short and long). Walk Back is done from several distance, each farther back. 

I do a short distance French tune. I use 9 to 10 feet as my closest and 30 yards my longest. Again, as above noted, the same pin is used throughout. For the target I use a leveled vertical line as I (you) am looking for left and right errors. Done to the best I can do accuracy (left and right) has been dead on out past 50 yards. My best won a 54 yard Novelty event. Now, the longer the distance you can use the more finely center shot can get. Outdoors I use 9 to 10 feet for my short distance and 50 and sometimes 60 yards for my long distance.

Here's a target from the shop. Here's one French tune I did.


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## Glorious (Oct 31, 2016)

This is MY Starting point for center shot


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## Sae31523 (Feb 23, 2018)

I had a bow that did the same thing. Out to 100 yards. It was my rest. It had perfect bullet holes on paper tune. I moved my rest to the riser. Loosened the set screw slightly, and bumped it. It was a micro adjustment. Shot again at 100 yards and hit the target where I aimed. Shot through paper again, and still had bullet holes. Problem solved!


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## johnno (Apr 11, 2006)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I’m not sure if I should move my rest, it’s paper tuned perfect


By who?


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## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

Bowfreak said:


> Please stop before you do anything. Before you start messing with the rest and before everyone assumes his bow is out of tune. He mentioned he was having a hard time keeping his bubble level. So before he messes with any tuning he needs to make sure his sight is actually level with his bow and string. If it’s not he can move his rest all he wants but that is not fixing the root issue.


3rd axis will wreak havoc with l/r tuning......follow Bowfreaks advice.....


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## cgray.72 (Nov 22, 2013)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I can put 5 arrows inside a group the size of a half dollar consistently at 20 yards, but at 30 I’m a couple inches to the left on at least 3 out of 5 shots. At 40 yards I’m about 3 inches to the left on about 3 out of 5 shots. It gets worse at 50? Also at 50 yards I’m having a hard time keeping the bow level with the bubble , but at 20, 30, and 40 this is not a problem, maybe a tiny bit at 40.
> 
> I can drive tacks at 20yards but can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong at longer distances, my grip seems good, my anchor point hasn’t changed, any suggestions?


either your center shot is off or your 1st axis is off on your sight

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Steadyoutdoors (Jun 13, 2015)

Could be a ton of things usually the shooter I'd start with checking your level at full draw always make sure your level don't be afraid to adjust your site a little to see if it helps even if your on at 20 you can give it a few clicks and not notice a thing at 20 but at further distance it could mean lots 
Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## 874443 (Mar 4, 2018)

My buddy is doing almost the same


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## tmill4 (Jan 23, 2018)

Moving it slightly to the right will fix your grouping problem and if you re-did a paper tune at that point it will still be super close to perfect. Shooting accurate out past 20 yards is incredibly more important than what the paper looks like when you shoot it at 5 yards. Could also be you torquing it slightly and it’s a combo of the rest being slightly off and form being slightly off.

My credibility is that I just went through this exact same thing the last month, except my group veered off left when I got farther.


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## spruis (Jan 15, 2015)

You are sighted in at 20 yards, but arrows are going left at longer distances. Well, they are going left at 20 yards, too, you have probably just adjusted your sight to account for it. Check to see if your aperture/pins are in line with the central plane of the bow. If your aperture/pins are to the left of that plane it is because your arrows are flying to the left.

Arrows flying to the left is called a "stiff reaction" indicating that the arrows are too stiff or the bow too weak. You can test this by putting a turn or so on each limb and see if the arrows hit less to the left. If this is the case you need to tune your setup.


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## tmill4 (Jan 23, 2018)

Read my post assuming that your sight level isn’t the problem and that you aren’t torquing it before you mess with the rest though.


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## HOYTINIT (Aug 28, 2012)

always sight in farther...for target shooting at 20 i'll sight in at 30-40..then it is just an up down minor adjustment....hard to miss then...cost a lot of arrows though..lol


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## Prodigy40 (Nov 23, 2017)

At 20 yards it's too close to see error in set up. I tune my bow based on my 60 yard shot. That's where the error is magnified . Like mentioned in other responses technique or form can be the only issue aka operator error. Ensure you're not gripping your bow as if it's a gun. Try in remain in within your lifeline on your palm with elbow out so when bow is in hand you can do a wiping motion not a hammering motion. I realized that a perfectly tuned bow can still shoot like crap depending on the shooter. Also if you have stabilizer ensure nocked arrow is perfectly lined up with stabilizer. Try shooting your 60 and adjust your sight not your rest then when your shots are landing shoot your 20. Also whisker biscuit is not the most accurate. You should consider drop away rest.


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## Plane & Simple (Jun 25, 2016)

Honestly if it's just 3 out of 5 arrows I'd shoot those 3 again at 30 and if they did the same thing just turn the nocks til they fall in line. Setup the bow, tune the arrow.


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## mknowlesus (Oct 5, 2016)

John Dudley has a good video on how to do walk back tuning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCiTPJrCNA8


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## Casey Hatley (Nov 9, 2017)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I’m not saying you are wrong I would just like a second opinion, I would hate to move the rest if the problem lies in form



Second opinion. Paper tuning is only to make sure your arrows aren’t coming out of the bow sideways LOL. Is isn’t as important as walk back tuning. Use your furthest pin, say 50 yard pin. Go to 3 yards and shoot at the bullseye. 3 and 50 yd pin are both the same for me. Make sure at three yards the arrow hits pinpoint. Then without changing your sight walk back to 50 yards and shoot. If your arrow hits to the left of the bullseye, you will move your rest into the center. So It hits left you move your rest right. Little goes a long way, micro adjust. Now walk back up to 3 yards. Shoot again. Resight scope to bring arrow back to dead center. And then walk back again to 50. Continue this process until you are hitting dead center at 3 and 50 yards. John Dudley showed me this. Check his video out. Matter fact you might want to watch them all, so you can see what is most pivotal for tuning and what is usually just a starting point.


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## ride and slide (Mar 15, 2016)

bare shaft tune has always worked for me. Just use the search feature there are plenty of tuning threads. Makes awesome broad head flight.


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## Golfnut1969 (Jan 3, 2013)

I just read your original post, and all the subsequent posts. Just to reiterate:

You shoot on at 20, 2 inches left at 30, 3 inches left at 40 and even further left at 50.

Sounds to me like you need to move your sight housing to the left.

If your sight is off, moving it just a little will have a much greater affect at 50 yards than it will at 20 yards. A 1/16 of an inch change might move it a quarter inch at 20 yards but 5 inches at 50. If this isn't making sense to you, google MOA (Minute of Angle). 

Anyway, you might have some tuning issues or hand torque issues, but everyone is jumping to some major conclusions here with very minimal information. But if you're shooting consitent groups and they're getting farther left the farther you are from the target, move your sight and work from there.


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## mknowlesus (Oct 5, 2016)

Golfnut1969 said:


> I just read your original post, and all the subsequent posts. Just to reiterate:
> 
> You shoot on at 20, 2 inches left at 30, 3 inches left at 40 and even further left at 50.
> 
> ...


In this scenario, I believe you want to first move your rest to the right, or the direction you want the arrow to go, and then re-sight in. This is a great vidoe on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCiTPJrCNA8


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## TAIL~~CHASER (Dec 14, 2015)

I stopped reading at you don't have 2nd and 3rd axis adjustment. Here's what you do. Go buy a set of feeler gauges and set your the axis dead nuts. If you have no form flaws.... Problem solved


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## mttporter (Oct 4, 2016)

It may be your arrows. Try Numbering your arrows (I use a sharpie on the vanes) and see if it's the same arrows that re missing to the left - I had the same problem and purchased Liminarrows from luminok - the arrows are "spined" so that the fletching is in the same spot relative to the heaviest side of the arrow, so the arrows all fly the same. Made a HUGE difference.
Also check to see if you're shooting with your dominant eye - if you're not, this could cause the same problem. Good luck!


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## Harv332000 (Jun 24, 2003)

Get rid of the whisker biscuit my son had one on his bow was fine at 20 but out past that it was not good went to a drop away and grouping was better it’s just a thought


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I can put 5 arrows inside a group the size of a half dollar consistently at 20 yards, but at 30 I’m a couple inches to the left on at least 3 out of 5 shots. At 40 yards I’m about 3 inches to the left on about 3 out of 5 shots. It gets worse at 50? Also at 50 yards I’m having a hard time keeping the bow level with the bubble , but at 20, 30, and 40 this is not a problem, maybe a tiny bit at 40.
> 
> I can drive tacks at 20yards but can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong at longer distances, my grip seems good, my anchor point hasn’t changed, any suggestions?


has nothing to do with torque. it is the 3rd axis . is out . try shooting down hill , I would think that you will be going out to the right


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## Frogslayer (Sep 5, 2014)

To tune your rest or French tune. After paper tuning at yards, then shoot your 50 yard pin at 3 yards once the sight is adjusted to hit dead center at that distance back out to 50 and shoot a group of arrows. Adjust rest accordingly left or right, but remember a little goes a long way. Then shoot at 3 yards again to see if you are still center. If so go back to 50. Repeat this until you get center at 3 and 50. 
John Dudley way to French or walk back tune. It’s on the nock on website


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## sunny_d (Feb 18, 2013)

Hows your form / face pressure? What are you running for stabilizers on the bow? To me, it sounds like there are influences into the shot other than the bow being "out of tune".

Last year I was having a very difficult time getting things to tune/work well - I had developed form issues which needed to be addressed; all of the sudden groups cut size and my scores jumped drastically (3D and spots, shooting my hunting rig). 

The moving left sounds like a torque / hand form issue. Work on pushing with the line in your palm (no other hand grip) and pulling back/through your shot. A lot of times people will relax a little in the valley and not realize the bow has creeped ever so slightly forward, making for more float in their shot.

Finally, I like to run my arrows ~1.5 to 2" shorter than my draw length - biggest thing is looking at if they stick out beyond the shelf, if you'll be shooting broadheads etc.

Good luck!


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## tikaldah2000 (Apr 12, 2008)

This won't address the sight issue, but as a coach I would definitely tell you to drop your draw weight. Your shoulder should not bother you when you draw. It is very difficult to explain, but you want to be using your back muscles as much as possible on the draw. Get some paracord and make a string bow. Your release may not fit on the 550 cord, so this is a good chance to practice tying a d-loop. With the string bow you can really tell which muscle groups you are using to draw. You can also feel the difference between using back tension or not. As for the perceived tone of some of the responses her, never take them personally. Some guys sound crabby, but have good advice, others are just a**holes and can be safely ignored. Keep learning and enjoy the journey.


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## Golfnut1969 (Jan 3, 2013)

Harv332000 said:


> Get rid of the whisker biscuit my son had one on his bow was fine at 20 but out past that it was not good went to a drop away and grouping was better it’s just a thought


I won the Missouri State Championship NFFA Field Tournament with a Whisker Biscuit shooting out to 80 yards. They'll shoot fine.


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## Golfnut1969 (Jan 3, 2013)

brtesite said:


> has nothing to do with torque. it is the 3rd axis . is out . try shooting down hill , I would think that you will be going out to the right


Where did he say he shooting on a hill. You can shoot on level ground all day without 3rd axis coming into play.

Second axis would cause this if his sight was rotated CCW and his pins were gradually moving right.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Golfnut1969 said:


> I won the Missouri State Championship NFFA Field Tournament with a Whisker Biscuit shooting out to 80 yards. They'll shoot fine.


This is subjective to the competition you shot against and/or your actual scores.


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## CJDTMom (Mar 7, 2018)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I’m not saying you are wrong I would just like a second opinion, I would hate to move the rest if the problem lies in form


In my experience, whatever mistakes, however small, will be magnified the further out you go. So yes, dead on at 20 is awesome, but it isn't the full picture. If you're pulling off your string slightly sideways rather than straight back, that may not show up at 20, but will at 40. Get someone to record you with a slow motion option so you can see your release. Record from above to see how you're pulling back and record from behind to see if you're throwing your bow slightly upon release. They may be really small errors, but at further distances, they are going to be huge mistakes. A good app with slow motion recording is Coach's Eye. Good on Android or iPhone.

Good luck!


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## bwhntr7973 (Mar 8, 2011)

Make sure your 2nd axis is on then do some walk back or French tuning. Most likely your rest needs a slight bit of tuning. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Pengsylvania (Mar 9, 2005)

Have you tried moving the targets to the left to compensate for it? Lol....jk.

I would agree with shimming the sight on your sight mount because you dont have a third axis. The third axis is responsible to square your sight to your bow at stadic and at full draw. It will also correct your up hill and down hill shots. Watch this youtube video for better understanding. There is a series so i would recommend starting from 1.

https://youtu.be/CO_fa0bGwu4


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## PEhinger (Mar 10, 2017)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I can put 5 arrows inside a group the size of a half dollar consistently at 20 yards, but at 30 I’m a couple inches to the left on at least 3 out of 5 shots. At 40 yards I’m about 3 inches to the left on about 3 out of 5 shots. It gets worse at 50? Also at 50 yards I’m having a hard time keeping the bow level with the bubble , but at 20, 30, and 40 this is not a problem, maybe a tiny bit at 40.
> 
> I can drive tacks at 20yards but can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong at longer distances, my grip seems good, my anchor point hasn’t changed, any suggestions?


Before you go moving everything check your face pressure on the string when you anchor. I had a similar problem a while back and found if I anchored with light face pressure on the string I was right on but if I leaned into the string with my face putting more pressure on it, the arrow flew to the left even though my anchor point was the same.


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## Orange75 (Aug 29, 2015)

Do you have your arrows numbered? Is it always the same ones that's shoot dead center and the same ones that's shoot to the left? Could it be an arrow straitness/vanes issue?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I totally had my target bow fall over one day this fall and it totally bent my target sight bar really bad, I had to put it in a vice and bend it back. Well being a idiot I did not run it through my target sight setup after and just shot indoor all winter until lately. 

1. I have been fighting with my sight bubble

2. Once I started shooting outside I noticed that my bow could be dead on at one distance and off to the side at other distances.

This week I spent 20 minutes and checked out my sight, the 2nd axis was perfect and the 3rd axis was good to go but the 1st axis was way off. I have only been able to shoot outside a little because of the weather, the wind is just so bad I can't really be dead on accurate at all so I only have a first impression and it is looking really good. I think my bow is back to normal hitting dead on at multiple distances. So it was the first axis that caused the issue for me as of right now.


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## Ode1891 (Aug 30, 2006)

Sometimes if my anchor point is a bit off, it would mess me up only at certain distances. Cocking a bow to center on 20 yd pin vs 50 yd pin might change your shot execution if the change makes your anchor point uncomfortable. Before I do anything I first make sure when I draw the bow with my eyes closed and get very comfortable feeling the anchor I open my eyes and see where the peep is and where it is in relationship to that base 20 yard pin. When a bow was set up perfect for me, when I was shooting a good bit of target archery, when I open my eyes the pin is in the peep as if I was sighting as I drew. From that set up, very little has to change to change the sight picture at various yards. 70 and 80 were always sketchy shooting 5 pins. 

I haven't set up a bow for anything but hunting in several years and I'm satisfied out the 35 yards, but I know it aint quite right as it is. I could never shoot field archery as the anchor point falls with my current bow. But its a dead on set up to hunt with out to 30 yards. I think I'll work on it after reading my post  


Good luck


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## dubtech1985 (Jan 22, 2018)

Walk back and French tuning gets your sight and rest in line with each other. If they are not in line you will have horizontal misses at farther yardage. Still could be grip or torque though.


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## IndianaPSE (Nov 11, 2009)

Wild Thing1 said:


> What is most important to you - grouping the same at 20-30-40 and 50 yards or having perfect tears in the paper? I had the same issue tuning my new bow and corrected it with *walk-back tuning rather* than worrying about paper tears. Paper tuning is a good starting point IMO. Grouping the same at various distances goes beyond that.


WBT is the key here for sure. And don't worry about the past paper tune, you are actually tuning your bow when you WBT. You'll be surprised how much WBT exposes.


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## hunter11 (Dec 16, 2007)

OMG!!!!! I bet you weren't expecting a novel to read to correct your problem!!!!! All possibilities have been covered and your probably not even reading this thread anymore, Lol. A lot of good information though to digest and some not so good or maybe over the top is a better way to put it. What I got out of it was that you almost had it resolved but maybe went to far with the rest. Back that poundage down and someone said 3lbs. per turn.....not on the ChillX....it's 2lbs. per turn....I had two of them and you won't need different spine arrows. Bare-shaft tune and nock tune the bare-shafts also, walk back tune and or French tune. Personally I would go with the John Dudley videos on this and anything else. Archery is an awesome journey not a destination. 
P.S.....the funniest thing on this thread was that someone knows Dan McCarthy's draw length, LMAO, SMH!!!!!


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## bowhunterz759 (Jan 26, 2011)

Get rid of the whisker biscuit and get a qad drop way those whisker biscuits are not what you wanna try to shoot at more than 25 to 30 yards . They let your arrow move all over the place and when your fletching go through they slow your arrows down a lot


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## crakdanok (Sep 4, 2005)

Really simple solution to your problem,,,,,,,,trade that verty for a crossbow and your troubles will diasppear. Lol, just kidding. Get a small washer or piece of thin rubber or just a piece of folded paper for that matter and shim the top of your sight between riser and sight mount. Gauge the affect,,,adjust accordingly. Your site is your issue. Its mot your arrows or youd see the issue in mid flight at 50. If your consistant but out of line,,,,,,its your sight,,(or rest) If your consistant but out of line,,,,,its not your form. Consistant is the key word here. From your original post all i see in this issue is consistancy. A gradual change on a plane over distance is not born from a form flaw, or to put it in relation,,,,form "inconsistancy". Either youre really consistant at being inconsistant and your sights are off. As i stated to you previously,,,,,forget about that bubble. Your putting the fate of your form in the hands of some 12 yr old malaysian boy (or girl), that probably glued that thing on there, relying on that lil bubble. Youll get it worked out.


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## Fullpull (Jun 22, 2013)

always move your sight towards the point of impact: shoots left move you sight left shoots low, lower you pins that will always bring your sight closer to alignment. if you shoot well at shorter distances there is less distance for your arrow to move away from point of impact 1/8 inch at 20yds could be 1 1/2 at 50yds the distance allows more time to move off center point. I use a single pin sight , sight in at 20 and 60 yards I shot 3" low on an elk at 75 yards fortunately is was a 3D shoot.


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## crakdanok (Sep 4, 2005)

Or youve got 2 bad eggs in that group of 5 shots, somebody said mark the arrows,,,,,absolutely. You could he chasing flyers all over the paper.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Now, here is the reason that first axis caused me trouble. 

We have had a debate ongoing for years about shooting with a natural cant, I have been on both sides of the fence on this subject but right now I do not believe that you can shoot with a natural cant and be dead on at multiple distances. It doesn't mess with your arrow flight shooting with a leaning bow, it moves your peep off line so that when you look at your sight pin it is from a angle. So, this means that your bow can be sighted in at one distance such as 40 yards and be totally dead on but from 39 to 20 yards you will hit on one side of that dead on setting and beyond 40 yards you will hit on the other side. When I shot with a natural cant i found with my 3d bow that I needed to have it dead on at around 38 yards and that allowed my bow to hit 12 rings from 20 to 50 yards. Once I finally was convinced of this I then set up my bow with it vertical based on the bow string for 1st axis and it is now dead on at all distances. In fact this allows me to sight my bow in at 50 yards and know that when I walk up to 20 it will be dead on also.


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## RLW (Oct 4, 2017)

Discipline12 $ said:


> Ok so I moved my rest to the right and I was still dead on at 20 yards, but then I was shooting to the right instead of the left at 40 and 50. 30 wasn’t much different than 20. So does this mean it’s not the rest?
> I held the bow at an extreme angle like the one guy suggested and the bubble went all the way over to the left but the bow was still level?
> Does this mean at fifty yards when I was trying to fight the bow to get the bubble right (pre moving the rest)that maybe it wasn’t me because the bow was angled up?
> Do I need a sight with second and third axis leveling or should I just not pay the level any attention at 40 & 50?
> Or do I need to shim the sight? I’m not sure how to do that?


If the bubble is off center at angles (up & down) the Third Axis is off. 
Whether you have a Third Axis Adjustment or not doesn't matter. 
It's basically The scope is not aligned parallel with the level of the Bow.
On sights with a Third Axis Adjustment it just moves the front of the sight Left or Right until the bubble stays centered at any angle.
You May have to shim the back or front of the sight to clear up this problem. JMHO


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## Troy F (Oct 30, 2015)

Have you ever added point weight? Easy to try. Throw a 125 FP in there. Or maybe more? Good thing about this strategy is, if it doesn’t work. You can always go back. If it does, it’s great

Also, check for any vane contact at all on your cables or rest.


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## crakdanok (Sep 4, 2005)

rlw said:


> if the bubble is off center at angles (up & down) the third axis is off.
> Whether you have a third axis adjustment or not doesn't matter.
> It's basically the scope is not aligned parallel with the level of the bow.
> On sights with a third axis adjustment it just moves the front of the sight left or right until the bubble stays centered at any angle.
> You may have to shim the back or front of the sight to clear up this problem. Jmho


a++


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

It is impossible to fix a problem when you refuse to make any changes.


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## papaw (Sep 23, 2006)

you may try putting a 10 to 20 thousand shim behind your top bolt on your sight
that would let you move your whole sight left if no axis


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## BoiseMike (May 4, 2014)

Have you ever watched the slow mo videos of an arrow in flight? I am calling BS on paper tuning. At 5 yards, it shows one thing. A 6, it is different. At EVERY yardage it is different, except when the arrow is coincidentally flexed in the same direction, based on the syncronization of the flexing. You can pay attention to where your sight is, where your rest is, where your.....is, and move it back to that exact spot if you need to. I guarantee that NOTHING good is going to happen if you don't move something.


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## Steven Bressan (May 6, 2009)

Years ago we did a little thing called French Tuning, derived from their Olympic Archers. Set your bow up at the farthest distance you have to shoot. Do your tuning with a bare shaft and when you get good level arrows at that distance shoot your fletched arrows.

Now go to 20 yards and do the shoot your fletched shafts. They should group to the same horizontal area as your farthest groups. This works real well. I was able to shoot a 1340 FITA round after doing it and could easily hit the center on those pesky animal targets.


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## crakdanok (Sep 4, 2005)

I had this exact same issue last fall, with this exact same sight. Its the dovetail on the sight housing,,,,it doesnt ride in the dovetail groove on the mount in a 90 deg angle. I took pics of the obvious graduation from top pin to bottom pin in relation to the string,,,,,using the string as a straight edge. Also took pics of the lil washer that i had to mount between the sight bracket and the riser. I got no response after them asking for pics of my "supposed" issue. Imagine if you can trying to show in pics the very slight pin graduation in relation to the string. It was corrected with a washer in the .025 range. You cant see it in a picture, but from 20-40 yds it was the difference of 2-3 in right to right around 5 inches left at 40. Id love to get his sights in my hands. I guarantee its the dovetail.


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## Bukhntr (Mar 7, 2010)

Discipline12 $ said:


> I can put 5 arrows inside a group the size of a half dollar consistently at 20 yards, but at 30 I’m a couple inches to the left on at least 3 out of 5 shots. At 40 yards I’m about 3 inches to the left on about 3 out of 5 shots. It gets worse at 50? Also at 50 yards I’m having a hard time keeping the bow level with the bubble , but at 20, 30, and 40 this is not a problem, maybe a tiny bit at 40.
> 
> I can drive tacks at 20yards but can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong at longer distances, my grip seems good, my anchor point hasn’t changed, any suggestions?


Are you sure you aren't peeking at the longer distances? Follow through is so important. Basic problems are usually the ones overlooked.


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## schreib (Jul 16, 2011)

With the minimal detail you provide it will be very hard for someone on a forum to assist you accurately. HOWEVER, I am guessing two things are happening that are misleading your conclusions:

1) 20 yd shooting is NOT showing that you are "off" because the error is so small. While at longer distances the error will be linearly amplified by the increase in distance. (For example, if off to left by 1" at 10 yards you would expect the same shot to be off five times that at 50 yards, simple geometry.)
2) It is likely that your experimental data is not based on enough data. Also, your data is not "randomized". This may seem too picky but that is likely your biggest problem here leading to a conclusion that there is no problem at 20 yards.

Do the following experiment and you will likely see the wider variation I am expecting and reach your own, better conclusions:
-- Use only new arrows, same weight within 10 grains, correct spine, carbon fiber. Do entire experiment with same 5 arrows. Be sure your fall away(?) rest is not touching moving arrow.
-- Shoot at random distances (20, 40, 30, 25, and 35 yd) NOT in that order-- pick the distance out of a hat to shoot each one. Too much variation for many reasons at 50. Do not use that distance.
-- Do this after warming up; five different days. Warm up: take 5 or ten shots at 20 and 30 yds; when you feel you can be shooting well, start the experiment. The five days do NOT have to be successive days, best is a few days apart actually. Shoot only when you "feel" like it.

-- After every shot, walk up to target and carefully measure distance to center, record offset up/down and rt/left. Do not shoot five one after another within seconds or minutes. The idea here is to get you to walk and force yourself to get setup all over again for each shot.
-- Average the 5 shots at each of the distances, take standard deviation also. 

To analyze the data one asks the question: "Is the variation seen with distance to one side greater than that expected by linear distance projection of the error?" ie Comparing a 20 yard shot: is it 2x off at 40 yards or 3.5 times?

If you plot out your distances and they show consistently that you are off to one side more than that expected from anticipated error, THEN you KNOW and do not have to guess that your sight needs adjustment. By doing this work, you will also be less likely to adjust something that is normal variation in your shooting variables and not related to the equipment.

OR instead of all this just do a minimal attempt at it but follow the basics of what is described and you may come up with a similar result. This concept, is a rigorous experimental plan not for the average guy plunking around! I will admit.
NOTE: I probably read it on this forum: 

How a hunter target shoots: shoot only ONE shot each day. Forcing one to figure hey this is the only shot I am getting at this 14 point buck, it better be good and the best I can do at this instant in time. This forces you to be in the MODE you will be when out in the tree stand where you only get ONE SHOT!


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## schreib (Jul 16, 2011)

Steve: "Years ago we did a little thing called French Tuning. . ."

Could you please expand on the detail in your post? "get good level arrows"?? What do you note after shooting the fletched arrows at long distance? Do not shoot any bare arrows at 20 yds? What if they don't group well like the farthest groups? You sound like an expert and I really want to understand better! thanks.


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## 544daniel (Mar 3, 2007)

Move your rest. French tune to get perfect arrow flight.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

I appreciate all the advice, not sure what to try first. I did back my bow back to 65 pounds and bought new 300 spine gold tip arrows. 
Working late every day, won’t get a chance to shoot until this weekend. Will post results when I get bow tuned properly.
Thanks again.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Frogslayer said:


> To tune your rest or French tune. After paper tuning at yards, then shoot your 50 yard pin at 3 yards once the sight is adjusted to hit dead center at that distance back out to 50 and shoot a group of arrows. Adjust rest accordingly left or right, but remember a little goes a long way. Then shoot at 3 yards again to see if you are still center. If so go back to 50. Repeat this until you get center at 3 and 50.
> John Dudley way to French or walk back tune. It’s on the nock on website


Correct. 3rd axis means nothing at this stage. This is shooting dead on, no low or high tilt to the bow. 



Golfnut1969 said:


> Where did he say he shooting on a hill. You can shoot on level ground all day without 3rd axis coming into play.


Not quite. Shorter distances will be so-so, but the longer the distance the more the bow will be angled up. Like above, I agreed with, when using the same pin the bow isn't angled, just shooting dead on, and the 3rd axis is ruled out.

I think I already noted lots of good information, but sort of out of order....

Trivia  Axis, plural; Axes.


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## LetErBuckArcher (Aug 6, 2016)

As you move to longer distances, you will have to focus a lot more on your target. I would try slowly exhaling as you follow through on your release. It could possibly be a second or third axist adjustment.


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## Kudla77 (Aug 16, 2016)

Try shooting with the cock vane facing to the left. And if that’s no good, try shooting with the cock vane to the right. That or sounds like your arrows aren’t all equal. Inspect to make sure they’re all fletched well/identically.


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## palacerigg (May 19, 2010)

Hi there you haven't mentioned how long you have been shooting or if you are a member of a club. What you need to do is find someone you trust and local and talk to them. I get the impression that you haven't been shooting long and you will get 50 different reasons from 50 different archers ( no disrespect intended ) on why you are having this problem. But unless you are with someone who can watch you shooting then everyone is guessing.


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## Drjoe (Aug 8, 2005)

RickB4 said:


> When I set a bow up I shoot and tune until I get a bullet then I walk back tune 20 to 60 yards. When I walk back tune I make minor adjustments to my rest. Paper tunning can be over thought in my opinion but a good place to start. I paper tune up to 18 yards cuz that's what I have in my basement. I usually only have minor adjustments needed to my rest location


Rick is right


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

Didn’t read every post, so if this has been mentioned previously, I apologize. 

Do a search and find nutsandbolts’ Modified French Tuning thread. I thought my bow was “tuned” until I did this and the difference it made, especially with broadheads, was an eye-opener. And the good thing is that it is all accomplished in less than 20 yards. Much less. But after I made the necessary (and minor) adjustments, my field tips and broadheads were dead nuts from 20 out to 50 yards.


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## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

Discipline12,
Here is my advice... I don't know how new to archery you are but I do know that you've only been here on AT for a couple of weeks. So, unless you have been reading posts here on AT for several years, there are a few things you should know about AT and about archery.

First, there is a treasure trove of knowledge here... if you weed out all of the "incomplete, novice or non-value added comments and/or advice"... Many people either learn one thing well or maybe even a few things and they grasp onto those as the "cure-all" solutions... but if you really become a student of archery you will learn that if you study it enough, there are a thousand things to learn and you don't have to learn them all at the same time.

Once you move to different levels of archery, then you will find out that there are more things to learn. And then when you move up to another level again, there are more things to learn.

You also need to know that depending on what level you are, the degree of detail also needs to be different. When you first start, you might find that changing your draw length a 1/2 inch doesn't help or change anything... but when you get to a point where you are shooting at a competition level, you might find that changing your draw length 1/16" could make you go from shooting a 300 with 60 x's to a 300 with 50 x's...

Another important thing to learn about AT, is that there are people here that a brand new, like yourself and there are people here who have won National tournaments and some that have won brand new cars at National shoots... Plus there are several distinct different types of archery shooters here and depending on what you want and what your goals are, you should tailor who you listen to by what type of shooting they do. Some people might be 100% hunters only, some could be local 3D shooters, others could be professional shootings that travel the 3D pro circuit while others could shoot only at 20 yards at indoor shoots or at National or even International competitions. I've also known some people that post here occasionally that have been involved in International Olympic competitions... So, one person's advice might be good for some, may not help you and may even add to your frustration.

My next piece of advice would be to be somewhat scientific about what you do... keep notes, measure your setup and even document it with pictures, such as where your nock is located, your axle to axle measurement is, your brace height, your tiller etc. 

Next you need to understand that there is a hierarchy in archery meaning that there are some things you consider before you go to the next thing to worry about... For example, learning about walk-back tuning is not important until you can shoot somewhat consistently... If you can't shoot consistent groups at 30 yards, then doing a walk-back tuning out to 50 yards does not make sense... and once you establish the order of things to consider, then you will most likely repeat them with finer and finer detail with each level of shooting you achieve...

Meaning that if you are a level 1 shooter, and you do the walk-back tuning until your groups are centered... For example, you can now shoot 5" groups at each distance and you do the walk-back tuning until you are centered... then you might be where you want... but as time goes on and later you are shooting 2" groups, then you might need to repeat the walk-back tuning and find that you are off 3 inches at 50 yards... then your tuning becomes more precise...

One more thing to insert here... I did see one post talking about bow tech's at big-box stores or even local shops... also be aware of these people. Some may really have a great deal of knowledge... while others just consider themselves and expert and all they know is how to set things up how they like them or how it fits best with them. A good-bow tech will spend a LOT of time trying to help YOU figure out your style and YOUR fit...

No matter how far you go with archery and therefore with all the stuff related to equipment setup, tuning and form... only take it as far as you enjoy. Don't let all these details getting in the way of you enjoying archery... Go to the level you want and most important, enjoy shooting and then pass you love for this sport onto someone else...

So, here is my opinion and I'm sure there will be 100's of people here wanting to argue with my thinking or tell me how wrong I am... so here it goes.

1. *Draw Length;* before you even tough a bow, you need to have someone that is knowledgeable about archery help you determine you starting draw length. Notice I said your "starting draw length"? There are multiple text-book methods to tell you exactly how to determine you draw length... and these are good places to start, but once you get a properly setup bow and start working on your form and your shooting, you then need to experiment with your draw length to determine the true, best draw length for you... there are ton's of information here on this issue...
2. *Draw Weight*; you need to start with a draw weight you can comfortably draw and hold steady. If you can't draw a bow without hurting your joints or shoulder, then you are NOT going to be able to hold steady enough to shoot consistently. And until you can shoot consistently, then you cannot start to improve or even fine-tune your bow.
3. *Form*: I won't go into proper draw technique, stance and body position or alignment, anchor point, eye dominance or other form related issues but these are all very important... If I'm not mistaken, I've read where some people will spend a year teaching an archer the proper mechanics of stance and form for a year before they ever touch a bow. Then they work with grip, anchor and draw cycle way before they ever shoot an arrow... so don't under-estimate the importance of these topics...
4. *Arrow*: I once saw a quote that said, "*the best shooting bow in the world, is the bow shooting a properly spinned arrow*"... So, now that you have a good, proper draw length and can draw and hold the bow steady, then the arrow spine is important... and at this point, this is scientific, you just pick your tip weight and look at a chart to determine proper arrow length and spine.
5. *Basic Bow Setup*: center shot, brace height, tiller, nock position, rest position up/down, rest position left/right, sight position up/down, sight position left/right, draw stops if available etc... Note that as you begin to shoot with some consistency and longer distances, this may need repeated several times.
6. *Shooting sequence*; for a novice, this might be as simple as (1) nock arrow, draw, sight and release... but as you advance to different levels of shooting the shooting sequence with become much more scientific, for example (2) foot position, pre-draw stance, nock arrow, attach release, fine tune bow hand grip, pre draw target acquisition, hesitation to concentrate on target, confirm alignment and grip, pre tension on string, begin draw cycle, pull to full draw with arrow above target, acquire anchor point, begin settle in process as bow slowly drops onto target, re-affirm anchor point, aquire sight picture, concentrate on loose grip, maintain full draw tension, relax bow arm tension, control breathing, allow automatic shot sequence in the brain to trigger, maintain sight and allow automatic release process to begin, concentrate on sight and forget about the release process, wait for surprise release, allow proper follow thru, complete shot cycle.
7. Repeatability: the goal is really repeatability. Repeatability of your equipment, your grip, your anchor, your stance and so on. This is only achieved by many hours of practice. Enough practice to development muscle memory and to develop several automated mental processes.

Please note that there are many, many detail points left out of this basic list, maybe a thousand or more details, but this is just my opinion of the basic list and sequence need to facilitate improvement.

You can't really improve until you achieve repeatability.
You can't achieve repeatability until you practice.
You can't properly practice until your shot process is developed and solid.
You can't achieve a solid shot process until your equipment is setup.
You can't achieve proper equipment setup if your form is wrong or flawed.
You can't even begin to develop solid form until you have the correct draw length, draw weight and shooting a properly spinned arrow.

Just my thoughts and options...

Let the attacks begin....


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## gligo01 (Mar 15, 2012)

thenson said:


> Discipline12,
> Here is my advice... I don't know how new to archery you are but I do know that you've only been here on AT for a couple of weeks. So, unless you have been reading posts here on AT for several years, there are a few things you should know about AT and about archery.
> 
> First, there is a treasure trove of knowledge here... if you weed out all of the "incomplete, novice or non-value added comments and/or advice"... Many people either learn one thing well or maybe even a few things and they grasp onto those as the "cure-all" solutions... but if you really become a student of archery you will learn that if you study it enough, there are a thousand things to learn and you don't have to learn them all at the same time.
> ...


No attacks, well said, excellent post, thumbs up sir


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## Jody S. (Jul 9, 2015)

How are your arrows hitting the target at twenty yards? Is the back of the arrow pointing directly back at you or is it pointing to one side or the other? If so that would mean your arrows are flying crooked and your rest needs tuning.

You may be gripping the bow wrong (torquing it) and still have the bubble level. Many shooters grab the bow handle. Proper grip is to have your knuckles at a 45 degree angle to the riser. Google it.Start paper tuning at about nine feet. Then do the French walk back tuning method. 

Another very common problem is to long of a draw length. This can cause all kind of shooting problems.

Sometimes pro shops will only get you setup "good enough"! That is why you need to learn how to work on your own bow. 


I am not a fan of the Whisker Biscuit Rest for longer shooting. Close range hunting or for kids yes. They can be hard on fletching and affect arrow flight. Get a good drop away rest. 

If you feel your bow is tuned properly try adjusting your sight to hit at forty yards then see what it does at twenty.

What does your pro shop think is the reason?


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## tjd60449 (Jun 30, 2012)

Discipline12 $ said:


> And I’m not your bro...


 Sorry Son!


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## laserbeam1001 (Jun 30, 2013)

Tagged

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


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## PurpleStar (Mar 1, 2018)

Do a search on Walk-Back Tuning


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

thenson said:


> Discipline12,
> Here is my advice... I don't know how new to archery you are but I do know that you've only been here on AT for a couple of weeks. So, unless you have been reading posts here on AT for several years, there are a few things you should know about AT and about archery.
> 
> First, there is a treasure trove of knowledge here... if you weed out all of the "incomplete, novice or non-value added comments and/or advice"... Many people either learn one thing well or maybe even a few things and they grasp onto those as the "cure-all" solutions... but if you really become a student of archery you will learn that if you study it enough, there are a thousand things to learn and you don't have to learn them all at the same time.
> ...


and I thought I was wordy.:darkbeer:

Nicely stated. Well done.


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

Jody S. said:


> How are your arrows hitting the target at twenty yards? Is the back of the arrow pointing directly back at you or is it pointing to one side or the other? If so that would mean your arrows are flying crooked and your rest needs tuning.
> 
> You may be gripping the bow wrong (torquing it) and still have the bubble level. Many shooters grab the bow handle. Proper grip is to have your knuckles at a 45 degree angle to the riser. Google it.Start paper tuning at about nine feet. Then do the French walk back tuning method.
> 
> ...


I use drop-aways mostly, but still have a WB on my old Buckmasters 2000 that is a back-up's back-up lol. I shot this group of XX75 2213's fletched with 4" feathers at 50 yards. 










I agree with your synopsis on fletching wear (one of the reasons I switched over to drop-aways), but I disagree that they are not suitable for longer shooting.


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## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

nuts&bolts said:


> and I thought I was wordy.:darkbeer:
> 
> Nicely stated. Well done.


Alan, if what I said was correct then much of the credit goes to you because I've spend many hours reading and studying your posts and asking you a thousand questions... us engineering minded geeks need to stick together...

I have several large files where I've copied and pasted words of wisdom from "master yoda of archery"... my friend, Nuts&Bolts...

thenson


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

thenson said:


> One more thing to insert here... I did see one post talking about bow tech's at big-box stores or even local shops... also be aware of these people. Some may really have a great deal of knowledge... while others just consider themselves and expert and all they know is how to set things up how they like them or how it fits best with them. A good-bow tech will spend a LOT of time trying to help YOU figure out your style and YOUR fit...


The good-bow tech or otherwise bow tech first has to be asked. And it doesn't happen all that much that I can remember or even see today.


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## Jody S. (Jul 9, 2015)

Excellent group especially for fifty yards. Feathers will go through a WB better than plastics. Plastic vanes are what most people shoot nowadays. How long did the feathers last? Even some plastics don't hold up well going through a WB. Was this a normal grouping? Why did you switch to a drop away rest? How many competitive shooters do you see using a WB? They have their place but a drop away is going to be more accurate as I stated.


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## Discipline12 $ (Mar 2, 2018)

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I think I got her fixed. It was mostly a spine issue. Changed to 300 and moved my rest a tiny bit on the walk back tuning, didn’t move it much at all. My left and right is now good out to 50 yards. Probably wouldn’t shoot at a deer over 40 yds so that good enough for me.
There is still a problem with one of my axis’s on my sight, not sure which one because I don’t know what I’m doing.
But at 50 yards the bubble is not level. I just ignore it and try to stay true to my 20 yd form. The bubble is also off at 40 just a tiny bit but nothing like 50.
20&30 yards it is dead level. 
But bow shoots great at all distances now, if I miss left or right now I know it is a form issue. I can always tell when I make a good shot by how it feels, when it feels good I’m in line. I should have realized it wasn’t a form issue before because there where times when I just knew I made a good shot, everything would feel perfect but shot would be way off at 40& 50. That is no longer a problem.
If I had to guess I would say my biggest issue was being underspined, 2nd was the sight was not level( 1st, 2nd or 3rd axis not sure), and 3rd was making very minor adjustments to my rest during walk back tuning.
Thanks again for all the help.
Got my chill x ready to go now it’s time to work on the Hoyt!!!


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

Jody S. said:


> Excellent group especially for fifty yards. Feathers will go through a WB better than plastics. Plastic vanes are what most people shoot nowadays. How long did the feathers last? Even some plastics don't hold up well going through a WB. Was this a normal grouping? Why did you switch to a drop away rest? How many competitive shooters do you see using a WB? They have their place but a drop away is going to be more accurate as I stated.


The feathers lasted a long time, but the edges did get ragged. Didn't affect arrow flight one bit though. No, it was and is not a "normal" grouping at 50 yards. If it was, my name would be well-known on AT as I would be a pro winning championships lol. That day was just a very good day. But it does show that a WB is capable of sterling accuracy. 

I switched to a drop-away as vanes would get a ripple after shooting through a WB and I found that I would periodically have to replace the biscuit as arrows would start to wear a groove in the bristles. But frankly, I would not mind having a WB on any of my hunting bows (actually, I still have one on my old Buckmasters 2000 which I shot a few XX75 2514's through today). 

I think the reason competitive shooters don't use them is obvious. It's a hunting rest, not a target rest. But it is certainly accurate enough for hunting other than for kid's bows or close range bowhunting.


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## FPbowdocPS (Sep 27, 2014)

Your problem isn't in your sight setting ! First, double check EVERYTHING..!! Start with tiller setting. Check the arrow rest and nock setting. Using a bow square, make sure the arrow shaft passes through the "center" of the "plunger button" mounting hole, and set nocking point. Then most important, make sure your "center-shot" is set as close as possible using a center-shot gauge. Because, if it's not, you'll get the symptoms you're describing. Using ONE arrow, sight in at 20 yds. Using the "same" sight pin, Move up to 10 yds., then back to 30 yds. Groups should be in a perfectly vertical line. The reason for one arrow is, your arrows may not all fly the same. From there, "gang" set your sight, then set pins individually for elevation & windage. If needed, you can fine-tune your arrow rest for perfect center-shot ! Hope this isn't too confusing.. BUT it's necessary!!


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## Glorious (Oct 31, 2016)

Glorious said:


> You will be well under sipned my friend with that set-up... Specially with your Draw & Long Arrows. I would recommend to shoot @61lb with with 300spine arrow. If you expect good grouping at longer distances then need to have 130grain Tips (the weight of the tips have effect on Spine). I shoot 300 spine @60lb on my Halon32... but that is with a 5inch Brace & 75% mods.
> 
> A good test is to Shoot a Vegas Target at 20-25m with a 300 spine Blank Shaft.... If you can Hit the 10ring your good to go.
> 
> ...



I think i gave that advice at page 3... :darkbeer:


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## redbow26 (Mar 9, 2018)

You made an adjustment and it went too far to the right. Somewhere in between the original spot and too far to right is perfect.


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## Redgum (Jul 6, 2017)

G Day, I had the exact same thing occur
My problem was I had too much weight on rear stabiliser.
From website - http://www.archerylearningcenter.com/blog/stabilizers it says

_ I have a 12 inch side rod. I have 5 oz on the end of my long rod, so 33” x 5oz = 165”oz. I will divide 165 by my side rod length (12”) and I arrive at 13.5oz. I just round up to 14oz because the B-Stinger weights come in one ounce increments._

If I do this, I shoot 7 and 8's. If I put 4Oz on front and 2Oz on back - I can hit all 10's at 40 and mid 50's at 50/60+ yards..... go figure

Cheers


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Jhunts said:


> Post number 20 good luck eveyone


Reported... Good luck


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## GoofyArcher (Sep 21, 2015)

agree with most ,
walk back, 
3 axis and or move rest should be simple
test 2nd/3rd first it need to be right the move rest


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## 6-gold (Feb 16, 2008)

Are you shooting on level or you on an angle to the target?


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