# FB post by Jack Wallace on 3D.



## rhyno_071 (Feb 22, 2009)

Where's the LIKE button? Well said!


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## cougarIIInow (Feb 16, 2003)

I agree. 


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

100% agree


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

Thank you!


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## 10RINGR (Jan 26, 2005)

Very well said!!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Unfortunately for 3D, most will take the easier, less skilled road.


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## bgriffin (Aug 14, 2008)

Awesome post and hit the nail right on the head. Thanks


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## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

Very good read. I agree with him 100% that Known classes will bring back paper targets. How could it not? In the day of businesses and organizations cutting costs anywhere and everywhere you could possibly cut, paper targets just makes cents (No pun intended) to shoot known yardage. Hopefully it doesn't wipe 3D archery out all together.


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

I love when someone tells the truth! :darkbeer:


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

OCHO505 said:


> I love when someone tells the truth! :darkbeer:


He didn't really sugar coat it. epsi:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Simply awesome.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

3D doomsday predictions because some people want to know how far the target is. lol


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## FingershooterTX (Sep 28, 2008)

very well stated. My only challenge to this is what about the people that compete in the sport for pure recreation? I shoot 3d because I enjoy it and I enjoy shooting at animal targets. I do not enjoy trying to guess yardage when this is not how I hunt or shoot in real experiences. So I enjoy walking up to a grazing deer target, knowing it is 39 yds and trying to make the best shot I can. Times change and just like in any business we must change and adapt with what the consumer values.


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## dk_ace1 (Mar 31, 2015)

I think this highlights why some of us wish there was more access to other forms of target archery in certain areas. I'd rather shoot field or some other format for all the reasons he mentions (focus on the shot and execution rather than estimating the range and knowing where the 12 ring actually is), but 3D is the only thing available anywhere near me. I'd gladly shoot a known format at a paper target outdoors and leave 3D to the guys who prefer unknown distance and foam targets, but for me it is 3d or backyard shooting only. 

I grew up shooting unknown 3d and enjoyed it, but right now I just want to focus on becoming a great shooter first and foremost. Known 3D is the closest thing to that I can get locally, and it is a big compromise still IMO. I think he's largely right about where the 3D sport is going if other options don't become more available to the shooters essentially looking for something other than 3D shooting. 

D


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

FingershooterTX said:


> very well stated. My only challenge to this is what about the people that compete in the sport for pure recreation? I shoot 3d because I enjoy it and I enjoy shooting at animal targets. I do not enjoy trying to guess yardage when this is not how I hunt or shoot in real experiences. So I enjoy walking up to a grazing deer target, knowing it is 39 yds and trying to make the best shot I can. Times change and just like in any business we must change and adapt with what the consumer values.


Shoot non-comp, most local shoots offer this as an option and even knock off a couple bucks. Besides if it's really for hunting practice, the scoring rings aren't usually where you aim on game anyways.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

So is he for or against known yardage? :boink: (sarcasm)

When the young guns all shoot Known Pro and the G.O.A.T at 3D starts a tournament with known yardage and marked scoring rings, whether its fair or not won't stop it from happening.

I'm sure the die-hard recurve fellas predicted the death of archery once they started adding wheels to the limbs also.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

sagecreek said:


> Unfortunately for 3D, most will take the easier, less skilled road.


OK...but some want to take the more enjoyable, less demanding road...ain't there room on the road for everybody?


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## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

What's Fair and what isn't here has no relevance except' visual acuity ', which Levi Morgans's OPA target marking (just outlining the 10 and 12 method) solved. . When the target score rings are so vague the 20/15 guy has it vs the 20/40 guy. Do I think the ASA is going to go away? No. Do I think Known distance is real 3D, No.


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## psehoghunter (Aug 13, 2013)

Word


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

carlosii said:


> OK...but some want to take the more enjoyable, less demanding road...ain't there room on the road for everybody?


Yes, there are Pro and amateur classes at National 3D Competitions for the enjoyable and less demanding classes.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

This was a good read and definitely something to think about very well said


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## Junior Powers (Dec 22, 2009)

Very well said! I like that Jack Wallace and I've never even met the guy!


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## 14fred (Apr 19, 2009)

It's nice to see someone else that has the same thoughts. I will tell you up front; I am old school and love the un-known part of the game but respect all forms of archery


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I started shooting a bow in 1955. Did you know that Field shoots were at unknown distances years ago. But then it was noticed that the members of the club hosting the shoot would always win. So the solution was to mark the distance to make it an even contest for all. We hunters would have a broadhead shoot prior to hunting season. The rules was to use your hunting equipment. Then I remember in the late 60s, a local taxidermist started making molds of animals for the broadhead shoots. 3D was born.

In California, 3D shoots were marked yardage to keep everyone honest and because the ten ring was not always where a good kill shot was located, they started putting a bright orange spot n the middle of the kill zone. The Fresno Safari was big years ago and then came the Redding shoot. 

In the mean time 3D shoots were becoming more popular but broadheads were dangerous so they went away. Winning became important because sponsored started taking an interest. So hunting bows went away until the winners were using target equipment no one would be caught dead hunting with. Umbrellas to shade the sun and stop the wind. Pros owning every 3D animal made for ASA tournaments to practice on. 

So now a known division has been introduced. Sounds familiar to me. Next the 12 or 14 ring will be highlighted so everyone will know where it is located. Right now there are only a handful of archers at the top of the 3D circuit. They have the best equipment money can buy and all the animals to practice with. They are great shots with the ability to judge distance within a 1/2 yard and they have someone to walk around with them to hold an umbrella. Anyone that has this ability and can afford the best equipment and 3D targets will be against the known division. 

Those that work for a living and raising a family and has little time to attend tournaments to learn how to judge distance and see where a 12 spot is located.. Those that can only use their hunting bow due to cost of target equipment will enjoy an even playing field that the known distance will offer. 3D no longer offers a chance to practice for hunting. If that is what people believe, then they need to go back to the broadhead shoots we use to have, using the hunting equipment we really use. I have already signed up for my 30th time at Redding. This is a real target 3D tournament where everyone has the equal ability to win.


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## 307 (Oct 1, 2013)

Technology has changed the way we do things, archery is really no different. Rangefinders are nearly universal for modern hunters (especially out west, spot and stalk) and I would think, have greatly improved the ratio of lethal vs non lethal shots at game over what was accomplished in the past. So, if the intent of 3d was as hunting practice, and hunting has changed to use and benefit from rangefinders, shouldn't 3d also change along those lines?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Thanks Jack.......

To all those that complain in any way about any type of archery, get over it or not. Most of us really could not care less that you are butt hurt. 

I picked up a bow in the late '70's as a teenager so I could spend more time deer hunting. I didn't have time for any archery games due to my passion for hunting and raising kids. I eventually got into spot shooting in my early 40's so I'd be a better bow hunter which also led to 3D in the summers. I found I loved spot shooting competition which led to 3d competition. I've had spot shooters call me a "foamie", 3D'ers refer to me as a "spottie" and some puckered up type archers called me a red neck hunter...........and each is correct depending on the moment. Bow hunting still ranks ahead of any archery game!


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

307 said:


> Technology has changed the way we do things, archery is really no different. Rangefinders are nearly universal for modern hunters (especially out west, spot and stalk) and I would think, have greatly improved the ratio of lethal vs non lethal shots at game over what was accomplished in the past. So, if the intent of 3d was as hunting practice, and hunting has changed to use and benefit from rangefinders, shouldn't 3d also change along those lines?


But what if you forget your range finder on a spot and stalk? Do you go back home?


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## heh (Oct 28, 2002)

Very well put Jack. Herb


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## 307 (Oct 1, 2013)

3dbowmaster said:


> But what if you forget your range finder on a spot and stalk? Do you go back home?


...what if I forget my bow...

Honestly, for the western spot and stalk hunting that I do, it would be unethical for me to take a shot outside of "gimme" range without a rangefinder, so yeah, I'd probably go home or limit myself to really close shots. Guessing wrong and shooting a 5 (which happens to the best on occasion) is not nearly as bad as wounding an animal IMO.


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

I like it. 

My daughter and I had a terrible day on the course last Sunday. Head wasn't in the game. I had been shooting too much from one distance at home. Didn't transition well from level home range to the the odd angle shots with my release. Did I mention I shot terrible? Shot a 172 which is quite low for me anymore. Talked to one of the better shooters in the circuit in my class. He shot a 210. Am I looking for someone to level that playing field? No. Short answer is; I enjoy 3D but don't have time to really dedicate to practice. It is what it is. Would I like to outshoot him? Absolutely. But the responsibility is on me to work harder, not him to work less, or someone else to level anything. And to be honest, I'm a top 5 shooter on a good day. 

I actually see 3D picking up a bit around here. More women on the course too. I've seen days a couple years ago where half the females on the course were the 3 with me. Not much in the way of field or indoor though.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Our known shooters had a good time the other morning when they had to shoot in a dense fog!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Our known shooters had a good time the other morning when they had to shoot in a dense fog!


That is just one reason the "cheap" rangefinders should be banned from production. Seriously, if you can't trust your range finder it's pretty close to 100% useless. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have to find that out for themselves. When I began getting serious about 3D I was given a "cheap" rangefinder for a b-day gift. After about 5 days of practicing judging distance I returned the "cheap" range finder and got a good one. Depending on lighting and target color the cheap range finder night be dead on or up to 2.5 yards off at 30 yards. It's more than a little difficult to judge yardage when your measuring stick fluctuates.


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## eholguin13 (Nov 3, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> That is just one reason the "cheap" rangefinders should be banned from production. Seriously, if you can't trust your range finder it's pretty close to 100% useless. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have to find that out for themselves. When I began getting serious about 3D I was given a "cheap" rangefinder for a b-day gift. After about 5 days of practicing judging distance I returned the "cheap" range finder and got a good one. Depending on lighting and target color the cheap range finder night be dead on or up to 2.5 yards off at 30 yards. It's more than a little difficult to judge yardage when your measuring stick fluctuates.



Recommendation on a good rangefinder please. I have a Nikon 500 but I did notice how much fog can affect it. You can PM me so as not to hijack thread.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I've got a Leopold 1200i, and it did the same thing. I think it might have a fog mode, not sure.


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## AFC-Hazelwood (Apr 19, 2009)

sagecreek said:


> I've got a Leopold 1200i, and it did the same thing. I think it might have a fog mode, not sure.


What????????? Sage has a range finder? :wink:


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

AFC-Hazelwood said:


> What????????? Sage has a range finder? :wink:


Only use if for practicing judging and actual deer hunting. :wink: Great tool for that.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Kstigall said:


> That is just one reason the "cheap" rangefinders should be banned from production. Seriously, if you can't trust your range finder it's pretty close to 100% useless. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have to find that out for themselves. When I began getting serious about 3D I was given a "cheap" rangefinder for a b
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

AFC-Hazelwood said:


> What????????? Sage has a range finder? :wink:


He's in the closet..........


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

AFC-Hazelwood said:


> What????????? Sage has a range finder? :wink:





sagecreek said:


> Only use if for practicing judging and actual deer hunting. :wink: Great tool for that.





Kstigall said:


> He's in the closet..........


Errrr, uh, oh, yeah just that one time in college...but hey, I needed the money! Right sage? :wink:


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## AFC-Hazelwood (Apr 19, 2009)

sagecreek said:


> Only use if for practicing judging and actual deer hunting. :wink: Great tool for that.


Spend time behind the string instead of the screen and you will know when you have the wright number.:77:


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'll just give it my best guess and hope for the best!

Sent from my Giga Watt Personal Social Computing Device


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## jimb2 (Aug 27, 2016)

Garceau said:


> Kstigall said:
> 
> 
> > That is just one reason the "cheap" rangefinders should be banned from production. Seriously, if you can't trust your range finder it's pretty close to 100% useless. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have to find that out for themselves. When I began getting serious about 3D I was given a "cheap" rangefinder for a b
> ...


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

jimb2 said:


> Garceau said:
> 
> 
> > The rules say you must share information
> ...


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

sagecreek said:


> Unfortunately for 3D, most will take the easier, less skilled road.


Now, now.... some of us couldn't just 20 against 40 and don't want to lose a dozen Fat Boy per tourney.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

sagecreek said:


> Unfortunately for 3D, most will take the easier, less skilled road.


Now, now.... some of us couldn't just 20 against 40 and don't want to lose a dozen Fat Boy per tourney. 

Besides, I thought this tired argument was over and done. I dislike seeing it brought up again just to piss people off.


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## grander (Mar 19, 2009)

High 5!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Unfortunately for 3D, most will take the easier, less _excuses _road.


I fixed it for you!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yeah, because you eliminate half of them by shooting known/2D in the first place.


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