# ETN JOAD Demographic 2013



## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

3 from Kentucky? I didn't expect there to be that many actually.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I assume the ca-guest are the ladies from Chinese-taipei.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

The 90 total CA archers suggests to me, we should host in California at some point...


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

kshet26 said:


> I assume the ca-guest are the ladies from Chinese-taipei.


I believe they are listed under TPE at the bottom.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Like I said, there are many questions that can be asked.............Here's one, which state is obvious by its omission? Hint........think about the marquis sponsor.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

hwjchan said:


> The 90 total CA archers suggests to me, we should host in California at some point...


It was in California in 2011. Sacramento, to be exact. I was one of the judges there and my son shot at that tournament.


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## dongjc (Nov 6, 2009)

Beastmaster said:


> It was in California in 2011. Sacramento, to be exact. I was one of the judges there and my son shot at that tournament.


hwjchan, Not only was it held in CA in 2011, but the Cal Archery Team acted as field crew/maintenance/security.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

BaconRocks said:


> 3 from Kentucky? I didn't expect there to be that many actually.


two are CJO members. One, Peyton Oka, essentially lives in Greater Cincinnati. The other, Lily Schweitzer, is in Louisville but has chosen to make the 2 hour trek to Northern Cincinnati to train with our club. She came oh so close to a medal in the OR bowman recurve today.

Numbers from Ohio was disappointing. Of course two of our JOAD archers now live at the OTC and shot as seniors. Same with Compound Pro Ben Cleland of the Toledo area. Several of those listed as California are at the OTC though most if not all of the RAs shot up in the adult event including a 17 year old who managed to finish FOURTH in the senior Men's FITA! The Columbus ACE club had less entries than expected, same with the Columbus FITA club and the Cleveland Crooked River Club didn't appear to send anyone. This Nationals was the best turnout-they claimed it was a record breaker. 

There were a few hitches including the on then off then On then off Clout round that had around 100 people wanting to shoot but the event was set on a field that was uncut and lots of arrows being lost caused it to be cancelled. Why it wasn't held in its original wed Location (imminent thunderstorms caused the first cancellation) is not known. I do know Lizard (who was busy running the concession stand as well as competing in master BB) cut the entire field allowing me and CJO member Howard Moshier to find most of the lost arrows (one compound archer put his arrows in the tree line well past the last flag).

There was a delay in the OR today due to the bowman compound-I heard explanations of kids being told to shoot the wrong targets but I have no certain answer. However, the weather was mostly very good and the Officiating staff, including AT's own Bob Pian (running the senior field) was professional, helpful and efficient. Darrell Pace supervised the field (how many sports can claim the greatest champion coming back to run an event?) which everyone I talked to was happy with. we had a good practice field between the massive kids' field and the adult field. The kids team event seemed to have been run much smoother than in the past even with 30 boys cadet teams. I still believe this event should be voluntary and should be based on club or state teams but the problems of last year were not evident. There was some issues with the adult teams and some last minute changes but I'd rather have someone who was part of that event explain why things were changed.

I will be posting a list of the many arrows that were not picked up at the registration tent including five of one set (Clout) and 3 matching ACE's that one archer apparently lost. I tried to accommodate those who were leaving today with personal requests-I found almost every arrow I was aware of except for a couple all carbons that were not within normal parameters

I will note that the side of the field used for the JOADs has tons of false indicators while the practice field and the adult field is a relatively clean field. I would also note that metal detectors are not all that expensive and adults who are driving to the venue and have a kid prone to leak misses should consider getting one of these things. I did have more help this year and one of our judges (Rodney) brought a metal detector to compliment the two I brought and the one Howard Moshier had.

It was great seeing archery friends from around the US including the Traffords (the two older girls are at USAFA and USNA and did not come) from Louisiana, the Wiflers from Chicago (Alex won the OR in recurve last year on his way to being the #1 ranked Junior, this year he won the 144 arrow compound round and was runner up in the OR: as a side note it would be nice if we got a consistent set of rules because this year I believe the boy who had finished second in the 144 arrow event but won the OR got the overall Grand Champion plaque while a few years ago, Sean McLaughlin who was third in the qualifier but won the OR was second to Ben Chu who won the 144 arrow event but finished third in the OR). 

On behalf of my club I thank everyone who attended and hope that this nationals was an enjoyable event for everyone


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

hwjchan said:


> The 90 total CA archers suggests to me, we should host in California at some point...


You have a USAT shoot, the SO CAL open on the field where the RAs train-it was the selection shoot for the US Junior world team.


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

This is an unrelated question but I figured you guys might know. Do you have to be a member of a joad club to participate in joad nationals? I wanted to go next year but there's not a club within 4 hours of me.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Brake down by region - 

West - 128 archers - 6 states
North - 85 archers - 11 states
South - 96 archers - 8 states
East - 96 archers - 9 states


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

BaconRocks said:


> This is an unrelated question but I figured you guys might know. Do you have to be a member of a joad club to participate in joad nationals? I wanted to go next year but there's not a club within 4 hours of me.


years ago that was the rule US target nationals was the open shoot while the JOAD nationals required JOAD membership. I didn't review the applications. I also know that some have created "virtual JOAD" clubs that do not have a physical location or shooting facility.

It seems to me that if the EJN is the mandatory shoot for Jr USAT selection than JOAD membership might have to be rethought (for many years it was the National Target Championships, the JOAD shoot was like indoor nationals or the world junior trials (and now the USAT selection shoots)-events that counted but not mandatory


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> Here is a mindless yet somewhat interesting demographic breakdown of the ETN JOAD 2013. Of course the number represents the # of participants from that state or country. Yes, there are a few questions: What does USA mean? , what does CA Guest mean. The answers are really not important. With a little bit of knowledge and some imagination we can look at these numbers and make some profound observations. But to me, the most striking observation is the absolute need to move this tournament around the country.
> 
> AL	1
> AZ	8
> ...


I suppose we should say the same thing about the USAT shoots which were front loaded this year and the timing was detrimental to kids from the North Midwest and North East. By June all the USAT shoots were done. Meaning the kids in the South West especially had an advantage. Not a single USAT outdoor shoot in the midwest or North East and if the Nationals move to say California, should we say cancel the SO Cal or Arizona shoot as a USAT shoot and say give Mass and Ohio or Illinois and NY USAT shoots?

Another consideration that some apparently fail to grasp is that putting on a nationals that has over 700 participants requires not only the best efforts of the professional USA staff (like Sherri Rhodes) but also a professional level staff of local participants as well as a location that can host 700 archers. That sort of endeavor also would suggest the need for several airport options as well as easy access by cars. Here in SW Ohio we have FIVE airports that are closer to the venue than say the 2011 venue's access to one airport. Plus, having been to national events around the country, what other venue has a field that can accommodate up to 200+ targets on the same line? Not Canton, Not CS, and Certainly not Chula


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I don't think anyone fails to grasp the huge effort and logistics it takes to put on a tournament like this. But bear in mind that this is big country. Many, many areas have multiple airports, and hotels, and hospitals, and restaurants. There are soccer tournaments that make us look puny; there are baseball tournaments that make us look puny, and they are held all over the country. The difference is that they are organized by for profit companies. 

Would I cancel SoCal to have EJN in CA. No, but I wouldn't have it in say LA. I would move up north! CA is a big state. Perhaps the formula is wrong. Currently USA archery sits back and waits for bids. What if USAA preselected a location, then worked with local resources to make it happen. 

This is not that the Ohio location does anything wrong. They've done a nice job over the years. But EJN is a youth event, it has to come "home" once in a while. And home is where the participants live.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> I don't think anyone fails to grasp the huge effort and logistics it takes to put on a tournament like this. But bear in mind that this is big country. Many, many areas have multiple airports, and hotels, and hospitals, and restaurants. There are soccer tournaments that make us look puny; there are baseball tournaments that make us look puny, and they are held all over the country. The difference is that they are organized by for profit companies.
> 
> Would I cancel SoCal to have EJN in CA. No, but I wouldn't have it in say LA. I would move up north! CA is a big state. Perhaps the formula is wrong. Currently USA archery sits back and waits for bids. What if USAA preselected a location, then worked with local resources to make it happen.
> 
> This is not that the Ohio location does anything wrong. They've done a nice job over the years. But EJN is a youth event, it has to come "home" once in a while. And home is where the participants live.


California has a USAT shoot. That alone would suggest it also not have nationals. I wonder if you took a poll-what was a more convenient location for MOST of the participants

Ohio (Nationals) or San Diego-Jr World Trials. and the Ohio location is a neutral field in the sense that NO ONE shoots on that field OTHER than nationals. No one trains on that field year round


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## jrbenoit (Jul 9, 2012)

How come Vermont is not listed? I know for a fact that there is a big joad program at the range/shop that I go too. A few months ago they took 2 buses full of kids to a tournament I believe in Missouri. I'm pretty sure JOAD paid for the buses and hotels.


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Are you sure that wasn't the NASP World Championships in St. Louis?

http://mdc.mo.gov/newsroom/nasp-world-student-archery-championship-be-held-st-louis




jrbenoit said:


> How come Vermont is not listed? I know for a fact that there is a big joad program at the range/shop that I go too. A few months ago they took 2 buses full of kids to a tournament I believe in Missouri. I'm pretty sure JOAD paid for the buses and hotels.


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

CA-Guest is probably a resident alien living in California. 
If I went to nationals I would end up being MA-Guest.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Jim C said:


> California has a USAT shoot. That alone would suggest it also not have nationals. I wonder if you took a poll-what was a more convenient location for MOST of the participants
> 
> Ohio (Nationals) or San Diego-Jr World Trials. and the Ohio location is a neutral field in the sense that NO ONE shoots on that field OTHER than nationals. No one trains on that field year round


Again, I would not preclude EJN simply because the state also has a USAT shoot, and visa versa. But it would have to be in a very different part of the state. I'm also not bound by having "Nationals" tied to EJN, you'll probably remember that there was no clear preference about coupling or decoupling the two events. As for the home field advantage.........Much has been said about the home field advantage at SoCal/Jr World Team Trials. The location and timing of the event are both open for debate. I agree with you whole heartedly on this one! But Chula Visa is a special case, otherwise the same could be said about Phoenix, Yankton and Newberry. So for the most part , Chula Visa aside, I don't think the home field advantage has much weight.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> Again, I would not preclude EJN simply because the state also has a USAT shoot, and visa versa. But it would have to be in a very different part of the state. I'm also not bound by having "Nationals" tied to EJN, you'll probably remember that there was no clear preference about coupling or decoupling the two events. As for the home field advantage.........Much has been said about the home field advantage at SoCal/Jr World Team Trials. The location and timing of the event are both open for debate. I agree with you whole heartedly on this one! But Chula Visa is a special case, otherwise the same could be said about Phoenix, Yankton and Newberry. So for the most part , Chula Visa aside, I don't think the home field advantage has much weight.


I don't think it is proper for a state to have two ranking events when an entire region would have none


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Jim C said:


> I don't think it is proper for a state to have two ranking events when an entire region would have none


Perhaps, but it's not a show stopper for me. Using CA as an example again, Southern CA and Northern CA may as well be two different states. The same could be said of Florida, New York and probably a dozen or more other states. The need to move this tournament around the country trumps the distaste for having two ranking tournaments in the same state. Aside from that, with foresight and planning there may be little need to deal with this issue.


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## drw (Oct 28, 2002)

jrbenoit said:


> How come Vermont is not listed? I know for a fact that there is a big joad program at the range/shop that I go too. A few months ago they took 2 buses full of kids to a tournament I believe in Missouri. I'm pretty sure JOAD paid for the buses and hotels.


The bus trip was to Louisville,Kentucky to attend the NFAA Indoor Nationals.
Just one bus.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> Perhaps, but it's not a show stopper for me. Using CA as an example again, Southern CA and Northern CA may as well be two different states. The same could be said of Florida, New York and probably a dozen or more other states. The need to move this tournament around the country trumps the distaste for having two ranking tournaments in the same state. Aside from that, with foresight and planning there may be little need to deal with this issue.


Opinion noted not shared. I don't see a sound argument for putting a nationals at one side of the country rather than in a central location.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Although I like the idea of moving the event around, it gets so complicated and challenging for all to not have a place that they know and is consistent each year. I think that is why the Las Vegas event continues to grow. If Hamilton becomes the site for years to come, everyone will at least know where to stay, where to eat, what to expect with the weather, etc. Also, it is a field that is only used one time each year. Thus no advantage for the locals.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, I would like to see it moved around too, but as you say, logistically it's a nightmare to do that. Not practical. I also like the idea of it being in one place year after year for the reasons you list.

HOWEVER...

Hamilton (with all due respect to its residents) is a pretty poor site IMO. Most families are treating JN as their summer vacation, and there is absolutely NOTHING to do around the host hotel, not to mention nowhere to eat without getting in your car and driving through traffic for miles. It would be nice to have Nationals hosted each year in a location where families could plan a full vacation, with visits to major national attractions. Someplace like Chicago or St. Louis or Philly or DC or Co. Springs or Salt Lake City or ANYWHERE reasonably cool that has some interesting places to take the kids.

Again, apologies to the Hamilton faithful, but after an evening walk around the host hotel, and my wife and daughter checking out the local museums (how many people even knew there are two museums within 300 yards of the host hotel?) we were very dissapointed that Nationals isn't hosted somewhere we would actually plan a vacation around. I know other families who have said the same thing.

The other issue with this venue is that if you don't stay at the host hotel (not a bad hotel, but it is completely isolated from anything else) you have a 15 minute commute through traffic to get to the next decent hotel. 

I think we can all agree that the field is pretty good, but I think we can do better as far as a host city. A LOT better.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I seriously think someone needs to look into finding another small college campus in the upper midwest for us to use. The model worked for how many years in Oxford? Absolutely no reason it cannot work again in a slightly larger place. Washington U is right next to Forest Park in STL. Hmmm. U of Wisc. Madison? Notre Dame? I can't imagine a town and college that wouldn't want a few hundred thousand dollars injected into it's economy every year...

At one point, one of the parents told me they had calculated there was over $105,000 on the field in registrations alone. For our family, that one registration translated into at least 5X as much in hotel, food, etc. So, the economic impact of this year's Nationals to the Hamilton area was at least a half MILLION dollars. 

I would think that could get the attention of a number of towns and universities.

John


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Hamilton (with all due respect to its residents) is a pretty poor site IMO. Most families are treating JN as their summer vacation, and there is absolutely NOTHING to do around the host hotel, not to mention nowhere to eat without getting in your car and driving through traffic for miles. It would be nice to have Nationals hosted each year in a location where families could plan a full vacation, with visits to major national attractions. Someplace like Chicago or St. Louis or Philly or DC or Co. Springs or Salt Lake City or ANYWHERE reasonably cool that has some interesting places to take the kids.
> John


I remember speaking to a family from Texas the year this tournament was held in Downingtown, PA. They drove cross country, made some sightseeing stops, went to Washington, went to Philadelphia, and New York. I think they even went to Gettysburg. They made a vacation out of it. Two years ago, when Nationals was in Yankton (I didn't like Yankton!), some families made the trip to Mount Rushmore. Just to reiterate, this is a youth tournament. Parents do this for their kids as a fun family event. Yes for some it's just another stop on the competitive tournament circuit. But that's only a relatively few top Juniors, and Cadets. 

Jim has consistently talked about the convenience factor that Hamilton offers. It may be a factor for some, but I believe the numbers tell a different story. Most of the participants traveled a long way to get to Hamilton. Whether you're flying or driving, it's not a convenient trip from CA or TX or even NY, CT, or MA. I mean no malice, but it's only convenient for the locals. Which brings me to another point. The only reason we're involved in this sport at a high level is because the first national tournament we participated in was truly convenient. It was in Downingtown, only a three hour drive, didn't require a huge commitment of vacation time or money. That opportunity doesn't happen if EJN homesteads in Hamilton.

Just in case anyone is listening........If I was organizing this thing, I'd be looking at EJN 2015, it's already to late for 2014.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I seriously think someone needs to look into finding another small college campus in the upper midwest for us to use. The model worked for how many years in Oxford? Absolutely no reason it cannot work again in a slightly larger place. Washington U is right next to Forest Park in STL. Hmmm. U of Wisc. Madison? Notre Dame? I can't imagine a town and college that wouldn't want a few hundred thousand dollars injected into it's economy every year...
> 
> At one point, one of the parents told me they had calculated there was over $105,000 on the field in registrations alone. For our family, that one registration translated into at least 5X as much in hotel, food, etc. So, the economic impact of this year's Nationals to the Hamilton area was at least a half MILLION dollars.
> 
> ...


and how many smaller universities have all the entertainment facilities that supposedly are lacking in the greater Cincinnati area? The economic impact was calculated at 2 million dollars BTW. Many don't have easy airport access. Dorms are cheaper-but in mid summer you have to make sure there is airconditioning.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

A college campus as the shooting facility would be great, but I don't think that college dorms would work out.
1. Many colleges now host summer sessions (sometimes two).
2. Many colleges now host various sports camps that bring in big bucks.
3. Community showers in a dorm are probably a show stopper for most. Remember this is a family activity for many. 
4. Yes, AC is a big issue.

I don't believe that the Oxford model is valid today. Colleges now use and operate their facilities very differently. And, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but the Oxford model served US Nationals, not an event equal to EJN.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Cook Field has been encroached upon mightily in the last few years. I will be at Miami next week and can give a more accurate report but I think you are right-I do not think the parking and field could accomodate 700 archers and the practice field would have to be a bit of a hike


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, when I get some time I'll start a list. But frankly I don't see the point since there is no REAL system for the members of this organization to vote on where and how Nationals will be hosted. The many are always at the mercy of a few in this organization. 

There are a LOT of college towns with easy airport access that could host this event. How many other sports that are much larger than archery do exactly the same?

One of my biggest beefs with this venue is that there is basically only ONE host hotel, and there is absolutely NOTHING around it. No places to eat, and basically nothing interesting to see unless you want to get followed by the homeless people along the river for a little excitement.

My wife and I tried to go for a nice evening walk the other night, and three times I decided to turn around and head another direction because I didn't want to get harassed or followed by a homeless person who was panhandling. In Hamilton Ohio. Seriously. It's sad. It's such a pretty town too, but that particular area around the hotel is NOT the best.

At least when we had it in Colorado Springs, we took the kids to the OTC, or to Garden of the Gods, or the USAFA or any number of other interesting places to visit. Not to mention having the view of Pike's peak to welcome you every morning. 

But again, I don't see what difference it makes what anyone's opinions are when really only about 5 or 6 people are making all the decisions for a few thousand.

I've learned to just shut up and roll with it. It's less stressful that way.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

San Diego has lots of attractions but its a haul from Chula. about the same drive to say the world famous Cincinnati Zoo and there are tons of hotels in West Chester that are no farther from the field than the place we stayed at Chula or in PA or in Des Moines or in Oklahoma City.Kings Island is not a far drive from the hotel block in West Chester. You are right about Downtown Hamilton but when you hit Union Center Blvd (which turns into Symmes Road which runs right into the venue) off of I 75 its a far nicer area and less than ten miles from the venue and the traffic is no more than what we got at the places I mentioned.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John, I agree that the area near the host hotel was not an area you would want to hang out in, but maybe it would just take another host hotel in a better location. After all, it was about 10 miles from the tournament field or something like that. Maybe 10 miles on the opposite side of the tournament there is something more pleasant or better yet, closer to Cincinnati where there would be all kinds of educational and family things to do. And hopefully two or three hotels in a very close proximity would be more archery family friendly. Oxford, really didn't offer a lot (no museums, only 1 movie theater, limited restaurants) but it was quaint and homey for those who like that sort of thing. Actually most of the people hung out at the dorms and talked archery. I am not saying that Hamilton is the only place, but what the city is planning on doing to the field will make it even better for the archers and again, this city appears to be eager to accept us. We should try to see if it will be fully compatible before tossing it off to another site that may promise the world but we end up with being dumped again. I recall that at least 2 cities or maybe it was three that agreed to a 3 year contract and all canceled the contract after the 2nd year. This region has a rich history of archery tournaments, archery champions and leadership. Let's hope that they can deliver on even better facilities, housing, transportation and entertainment. Don't forget, you have a group of individuals who volunteer to make it all happen and appear to be eager to do it more than just once. That core group is hard to find. The knowledge they offer is exceptional. According to Sheri, she was impressed with all of the hard working volunteers and the team that was put together to make the event happen. I for one got a first hand look on what was going on and behind the scenes the group worked tirelessly to make it appear like a smooth tournament. And that is why I would rather shoot! Than work....


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Sorry to be so blunt here but here it comes...........the host hotel means nothing in the larger equation. The vast majority of participants and families stayed elsewhere in less expensive hotels. Certanily the choice of a host hotel should not be a factor in where the tournament is held. While I'm being blunt, you guys keep referring to "Nationals". That's a different story than EJN.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> Sorry to be so blunt here but here it comes...........the host hotel means nothing in the larger equation. The vast majority of participants and families stayed elsewhere in less expensive hotels. Certanily the choice of a host hotel should not be a factor in where the tournament is held. While I'm being blunt, you guys keep referring to "Nationals". That's a different story than EJN.


which event(s) did the archer(s) in your family participate in? I agree, the host hotel means little. The Intersection of I 75 and Union Center Blvd (aka SYMMES ROAD) have lots of nice hotels, a nice movie theater, lots of places to eat including a very upscale steak house called JAGS as well as a nice barbecue joint and is less than 10 miles from the Venue and the traffic is not bad since you avoid downtown Hamilton


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

EJN. My family stayed in Sharonville. This was our forth year staying in that area in three different hotels. Great hotel rates, plenty of places to eat, and the ride to the field is fine. Please don't misinterpret my thoughts. I'm not unhappy with the how the tournament is run, I'm not unhappy with the hotel or restaurant choices. You're people go a great job, hats off to them! But EJN is a youth tournament and it needs to happen in different parts of the country.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Why is that when USAT shoots do not? Sharonville is good choice. I guess you are saying you didn't shoot-it was your kids. I have a different perspective since I have kids and adults in my club and I am responsible for coaching both sets of athletes. Maybe we should go back to two shoots and limit nationals to USAT divisions (cadet on up) or go back to JOAD Nationals being a club event (No RAs for example, teams comprised of club members or state associations)


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Well said, as usual!



Jim C said:


> two are CJO members. One, Peyton Oka, essentially lives in Greater Cincinnati. The other, Lily Schweitzer, is in Louisville but has chosen to make the 2 hour trek to Northern Cincinnati to train with our club. She came oh so close to a medal in the OR bowman recurve today.
> 
> Numbers from Ohio was disappointing. Of course two of our JOAD archers now live at the OTC and shot as seniors. Same with Compound Pro Ben Cleland of the Toledo area. Several of those listed as California are at the OTC though most if not all of the RAs shot up in the adult event including a 17 year old who managed to finish FOURTH in the senior Men's FITA! The Columbus ACE club had less entries than expected, same with the Columbus FITA club and the Cleveland Crooked River Club didn't appear to send anyone. This Nationals was the best turnout-they claimed it was a record breaker.
> 
> ...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I'm willing to be and willing to say, the turn out from AROUND THE ENTIRE COUNTRY speaks for itself. It is easy to get to the Cincinnati Area, there are five airports within 2 hours of the field. The cost is NOT outrageous. The field is gorgeous, the crew and staff are the best in the country, and people actually like this tournament being back in this area, where it is easily accessable by everyone across the country.

Matt Z...I like your quotes! Especially the wind!



Matt Z said:


> Brake down by region -
> 
> West - 128 archers - 6 states
> North - 85 archers - 11 states
> ...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

OMG! Rick, this is the most sensible thing that has been said in this thread! I agree, concur, and whatever else! 
It is great when a tournament is held in the same place year after year, and for many to come, as you can make your reservations the year before and you know what to expect!
I have to admit, I live near, and I love not having to travel but also having travelled, I can honestly say that the tournaments in Hamilton are the finest ones in which I have competed. 
Excellent staff, excellent FAIR field, great location, and people like the area.
My first tourney was at OXFORD, and though we are close by, we didn't stay on campus, but I remember everyone saying how great it was that the party continued on into the wee hours...problem is NTC/EJN has outgrown Cooke Field, which is a good thing!
You are correct, in there is NO advantage for the locals! We practice at home, shooting West to East!
Anyway, Rick you made a world of sense! Short Concise and direct and CORRECT!




Rick McKinney said:


> Although I like the idea of moving the event around, it gets so complicated and challenging for all to not have a place that they know and is consistent each year. I think that is why the Las Vegas event continues to grow. If Hamilton becomes the site for years to come, everyone will at least know where to stay, where to eat, what to expect with the weather, etc. Also, it is a field that is only used one time each year. Thus no advantage for the locals.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You are right about Downtown Hamilton but when you hit Union Center Blvd (which turns into Symmes Road which runs right into the venue) off of I 75 its a far nicer area and less than ten miles from the venue and the traffic is no more than what we got at the places I mentioned.





> John, I agree that the area near the host hotel was not an area you would want to hang out in, but maybe it would just take another host hotel in a better location.


Yes, I see we agree here. And it's very sad because there is some very interesting history along the Miami river and neat architecture - and obviously they have put a ton of money into dressing up that downtown area. But still, I have no real interest in staying at that hotel again. But it's the only convenient hotel to the venue! 

When I mean an interesting place for a family vacation, what I mean is someplace like Disney World, or Pensacola, or Gulf Shores (yes, I know those are all too hot in the summer) but some place where it FEELS like a vacation. Maybe the Wisconsin Dells area? Just thinking out loud here, but when I think of taking the family on vacation, I honestly don't think of Cincinnati or Hamilton. Sorry to those from the area, but lets be honest - where do Cincinnati residents go on vacation? 

It's easily apparent that those from the Cinci area will want it to stay there. Duh. Of course! I'd love Nationals to be held in Houston, San Antonio or Austin each year and wish it was 104 every day. LOL. Ain't gonna happen  

Rick, you're right. Let's give the folks there a chance to address the issues. A better suited host hotel, some more activities for the kids when they are not shooting, etc. would be great. I enjoyed seeing everyone at the hotel, but we'll probably be finding a different place for our group next year, closer to some things the kids would enjoy.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I heard an excellent "reason" as to why the tournaments were combined...it is to make it 'worthwhile' for the organizations involved. Back when it was in Oxford the junior event and the nationals were combined in one event, then the "Powers that be" separated the tournaments and we all had to go on road trips, or plane trips, and honestly, it gets quite expensive to do two trips for two tournaments declaring a "National Champion". WHY do you need a JOAD Nationals and a National Target Champion JOAD? Makes ZERO sense, and it gets expensive on the host club! Back when we hosted them (we did 2----wonder why? We are good at this national tournament stuff!) OUR CLUB HAD TO PURCHASE EVERYTHING TO RUN THE TOURNAMENT! Luckily our club is one of the few who had the resources to do so, plus we called on our state organization to rent us their matts and stands. I remember this all very well, as I am the one, with Darrell who made the trip to American Whitetail, to pick up the matts! It was a major expense and one that was not taken lightly, and one that many clubs cannot do on their own.

We've also done one Olympic Trial (2004). Total fun event! Mark Hequet, then with Warren County, now with Butler County, and I, plus my Tournament Team of Darrell, Steve, Jim, and Brandon, all pool together and get it done.

Understand, I am not tooting our horn to be arrogant, I am stating facts.





Casualfoto said:


> EJN. My family stayed in Sharonville. This was our forth year staying in that area in three different hotels. Great hotel rates, plenty of places to eat, and the ride to the field is fine. Please don't misinterpret my thoughts. I'm not unhappy with the how the tournament is run, I'm not unhappy with the hotel or restaurant choices. You're people go a great job, hats off to them! But EJN is a youth tournament and it needs to happen in different parts of the country.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Big tourist areas might cater to people who combine nationals with a family vacation for family members who are not archers. But big tourist areas are expensive. We had JOAD nationals at Disney in Orlando. The hotels were expensive for what you got and you had to pay 10 bucks a day just to go into the park to see your kids shoot plus a parking fee IIRC. It was a decent venue, the field was pretty well done but it was a 600 yard walk from the lot to the fields-and that was if you got there early. Even when I am merely (LOL) coaching, I don't have much time to say take in amusement parks etc though we did do that at Disney world because none of my family was shooting-Ian was only 7 and the turnout was such that all the shooting was pretty much morning through early afternoon.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I believe many misunderstand the JOAD Nationals and the USAA Nationals. The JOAD program was still very young when the Board approved of the JOAD Outdoor Nationals. Most JOADer's were beginning or intermediate level kids working their way through the patch/medal system. I would hazard to guess that most of the kids probably didn't relate to the USAA. Most of the best young archers did not compete at the JOAD event. In order to compete you had to belong to a JOAD club which made it even more challenging for some. However, the USAA Nationals was for USAA members thus kids shot in that event were more experienced and some were of the highest level. Yes, there were two champions, but really...JOAD National Champion (Junior Olympic Archery DEVELOPMENT) versus a USAA National Champion. Seriously, you have to figure out which was the better? 

One of the reasons the JOAD nationals were held in a different region was that it was considered a grass roots program and it allowed many kids to go to the event locally when it came to their region (affordable). It gave them a flavor of what a National Archery Championship was all about. I am sure it inspired many a child and many parents to see that archery was something that the whole family could participate in and it was truly a family affair. I was amazed at the rapid growth of this event and am proud to see how the growth has become even larger than the adult National Championships. 

It was a bit disappointing to see the change whereby the JOAD Nationals took over the USAA Nationals for the kids. However, progress it is and since it is still growing, it must have been the right direction to take. I just hope that the club requirement has been relaxed and any kid can shoot in the event even if they are not a JOAD'er. The big question is about having it go to the four different regions. Will we loose the participation size in the future if it does not move around? Hard to say. I hope not.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But big tourist areas are expensive


Three weeks ago, we were in Co. Springs to drop our son off at the Air Force Academy. Our hotel (Staybridge) was gorgeous, had two rooms, a full kitchen and a sleeper sofa, a full (free) breakfast and a patio view of the mountains. We stayed there for $20/night less than in that place in Hamilton. We all drove to the top of Pike's peak for $40 one morning. The kids will never forget that trip. 

I was at Nationals in Co. Springs in 2006, and would go back there every year in a heartbeat. And better yet, that's the HOME of USArchery, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. So we could cut a ton of expenses from OUR Nationals by keeping that staff at home, and allowing the RA's to stay in the OTC facility there. That step alone would save OUR organization enough to hire another full time staff person to manage JOAD and grass-roots activities.

Rick I hear what you're saying, but the youth sports phenomenon has hit the U.S. full speed ahead, and archery is now the latest sport to experience it. It's nothing like when we were kids, when a traveling team meant you traveled across town, or maybe, the all-stars from one town played the all-stars from the next town. These days, parents think nothing of hauling kids clear across the country for a title that was contrived just a month before and has no connection to any national organization. Any title will do these days, so long as THEIR kids make the "select" team... Some parents will invest many times as much cash in their kids sports than they would in their education today. If they would just stick that money in a low-interest bearing account, spend that time with their kid at the local park or lake instead, the family wouldn't be behind on the mortgage and the kid wouldn't be in debt after college.

Yes, the whole of society has changed. Just like that little and beautiful, downtown Hamilton, Ohio.

John


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Rick McKinney said:


> One of the reasons the JOAD nationals were held in a different region was that it was considered a grass roots program and it allowed many kids to go to the event locally when it came to their region (affordable). It gave them a flavor of what a National Archery Championship was all about. I am sure it inspired many a child and many parents to see that archery was something that the whole family could participate in and it was truly a family affair. I was amazed at the rapid growth of this event and am proud to see how the growth has become even larger than the adult National Championships.
> 
> It was a bit disappointing to see the change whereby the JOAD Nationals took over the USAA Nationals for the kids. However, progress it is and since it is still growing, it must have been the right direction to take. I just hope that the club requirement has been relaxed and any kid can shoot in the event even if they are not a JOAD'er. The big question is about having it go to the four different regions. Will we loose the participation size in the future if it does not move around? Hard to say. I hope not.


I believe that EJN is still a grass roots tournament. The two tournaments have been co-located, not combined. It seems that anyone who signed up was able to shoot........USA Guest? They must have been either non-USAA members or non JOAD Club members. Although there was very good competition, the very hi end (RA's) shot as Seniors. As a result of the fun team round, there were plenty of awards! Many kids from all around the country and with varying levels of ability went home with metals. And, in what other "real" tournament would the winner of the OR round not be crowned champion........only at EJN can the winner of the OR round go home in second, third or even forth place. In every way this is still a grassroots tournament. Would we gain or loss participation by moving around the country? I don't know.....but its the right thing to do, and the PR aspect of the event could only benefit, which in turn would be good for archery in general.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Casualfoto said:


> I believe that EJN is still a grass roots tournament. The two tournaments have been co-located, not combined.


The USAA National Target Championships used to include divisions for the youth. Now, they do not. They have dropped that particular program and only allow the JOAD Nationals during the same time as the USAA Nationals. Thus, I believe one program was dropped.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

John,

Of course you will go to COS any time! It's closer to Texas than Ohio! The prices are probably cheaper, due to the fact they CATER to MILITARY families visiting.
USAA's "HOME' is at Chula Vista, the offices are in COS for now. I hear rumor, and you know what rumors are that once the new FANTASTIC STATE OF THE ART FACILITY is built at Chula it might make sense to move USAA to Chula, as that is where the RAs live and train, and where Coach Lee lives. 

I wonder what the demographics were at COS?

Oh well, you're never going to make 100% of the happy all the time! It is not up to us! It is up to USA Archery as to where the national event is, and I am certain, the Easton Foundation has something to say about it too!

My only thing is it is better to have the tournament in the HEART of the country, where everyone is within a day or two's drive, and have a large field than to place it on the coasts and have minimal attendance because it is so far away.

Of course my opinion doesn't matter either!



limbwalker said:


> Three weeks ago, we were in Co. Springs to drop our son off at the Air Force Academy. Our hotel (Staybridge) was gorgeous, had two rooms, a full kitchen and a sleeper sofa, a full (free) breakfast and a patio view of the mountains. We stayed there for $20/night less than in that place in Hamilton. We all drove to the top of Pike's peak for $40 one morning. The kids will never forget that trip.
> 
> I was at Nationals in Co. Springs in 2006, and would go back there every year in a heartbeat. And better yet, that's the HOME of USArchery, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. So we could cut a ton of expenses from OUR Nationals by keeping that staff at home, and allowing the RA's to stay in the OTC facility there. That step alone would save OUR organization enough to hire another full time staff person to manage JOAD and grass-roots activities.
> 
> John


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Liz,
A two day drive equals 4 (more) days of vacation time for this event. Right now it's convenient to the folks that live in the Hamilton area. If it were to move to COS, it would be convenient to the folk in the COS area, and if we moved it to the say NY, CT, MA area it would be convenient to those folks. Basically you're talking shell game. Some people will always drive, and some people will always fly. We have many people that flew to OH from our area, and many that drove. The same will happen wherever the tournament is held. As for the cost of travel, I find that with some planning, my costs to any tournament that requires an airline flight are about the same. It doesn't matter if I go from NYC to Orlando, or San Diego, or Sacramento, or Las Vegas, or Phoenix, or Houston, or even Yankton. There is very little difference.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Of course you will go to COS any time! It's closer to Texas than Ohio! The prices are probably cheaper, due to the fact they CATER to MILITARY families visiting.


Actually, it's about the same distance to either for us. Still a two day trip. And the prices had nothing to do with being a "military family" as my son was not yet in the USAF at the time. It's just that there are TONS of good hotels in Co Springs, and the competition keeps the prices low. Most of the archers will pay $20/night more in Hamilton because the host hotel is the ONLY nearby hotel and there isn't that much competition.

And frankly, I'd rather take my family to Co Springs because it's 300% prettier, drier, cooler and there's a lot more interesting things to do. 



> It is not up to us! It is up to USA Archery as to where the national event is,


Last time I checked, WE ARE USArchery. It's thinking like that which has put us in the position we're in, where thousands of members are beholden to the decisions of a few.



> My only thing is it is better to have the tournament in the HEART of the country, where everyone is within a day or two's drive,


Well, then that's not Hamilton. More like St. Louis or Kansas City then.

Ask all the archers from CA and WA what they think about driving to Hamilton.



> Of course my opinion doesn't matter either!


Of course your opinion matters. All of ours do. It's time the membership started to voice their opinions and get more involved. Too few have had too much influence over the NAA for too long, and they like their positions of power and influence. 

Frankly I see nothing wrong with a circuit for Nationals that moves around the country. Two years in each location. If next year, Nationals were going to be held in CA or IL or MA, I'd probably make plans to go. But honestly, I'm not sure I'm interested in visiting Ohio three years in a row. Life is short, and I only have so many years with my kids. Why on earth would we want to take our summer vacation to the SAME PLACE each year? Makes no sense to me.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Ask all the archers from CA and WA what they think about driving to Hamilton.


As a CA shooter, driving to Hamilton OH is 2200 miles, and not feasible at all. I just drove 700 miles one way for a lovely vacation, and that took well over 13 total hours even with drive through dining and pit stops NASCAR would have been proud of. 

As far as other locations go, anything over 6 hours of driving means a flight anyway, so I would have to agree with the other posters who similarly considered flying as their primary mode of transport to EJN.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> anything over 6 hours of driving means a flight anyway


Huh?

I can tell you're not from Texas. Anything under a 5 hour drive around here is just a trip to the store. LOL! Heck, we have to drive 7 hours just to get out of the state!

Let's see... I drove my family to Hamilton (17 hours if we take the shortest route) and back for $150 in fuel (48 mpg diesel VW). Three plane tickets and a rental car for the week would have cost upwards of $1300. 

Not to mention getting to see other parts of the country along the way.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

You know there's a simpler way to say this. In a place that says it convenient the tournament is seeing 51 participants from the home state and the surrounding states, while there were 82 participants from an "inconvenient" area that I would describe as NY and it's surrounding states. It goes to reason that the gains attained by moving to NY would out number the losses sustained by moving from OH. If you subscribe to convenient equaling more people and inconvenient equaling less people then you have agree with this. 

I'm sure that this same analysis could be done for many other areas of the country.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Huh?
> 
> I can tell you're not from Texas. Anything under a 5 hour drive around here is just a trip to the store. LOL! Heck, we have to drive 7 hours just to get out of the state!
> 
> ...


Haha! How could you tell? :teeth: Driving out of Sacramento, California can take either 90 minutes (east), 5 hours (north) or 8 hours (south into Mexico). I can't argue with those economies of scale. Unfortunately my son has not quite picked up the archery bug like his ole' man, so I travel to tournaments solo currently. Plus I am not accruing vacation hours thanks to a job reclassification from full time to contractor, so time really does equal money. 

I tend to shoot tournaments that I can drive to. I am hoping to make to AZ Cup next year, and possibly nationals as well. I suspect I will be driving to AZ, since my girlfriend is now shooting, and a few of the other adult/collegiate shooters are going.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

If the EJN moves to say the west coast, doesn't the North region deserve one of the major USAT shoots

right now the southwest has AZ cup, So Cal Open and the Texas shoot

and the schedule favors people in the SW given all of the USAT shoots save EJN/Nationals are over by June. That really helps those who are outside all year round


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

In an ideal world, absolutely. But, if EJN were in say Washington, maybe that would be OK. Remember I'm looking at EJN as a stand alone youth tournament. Those going both SoCal and EJN in Washington would be very few. 

I've heard that this year's schedule was a fluke that resulted from the higher priorities of the international tournament schedule for Sr. USAT. Honestly I'm not sure I buy that explanation in total. Nor'easter fell apart from a lack of resolve, Gold Cup fell apart from a lack of resolve, nothing was scheduled anywhere in the north for a lack of resolve. If the powers that be really wanted a tournament in the north, and really wanted the season to extend into August and September, they would have found a way to make it happen. I hate to say it, but I'm quite sure that Yankton would have hosted a tournament at the drop of a hat.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Casualfoto said:


> You know there's a simpler way to say this. In a place that says it convenient the tournament is seeing 51 participants from the home state and the surrounding states, while there were 82 participants from an "inconvenient" area that I would describe as NY and it's surrounding states. It goes to reason that the gains attained by moving to NY would out number the losses sustained by moving from OH. If you subscribe to convenient equaling more people and inconvenient equaling less people then you have agree with this.
> 
> I'm sure that this same analysis could be done for many other areas of the country.


Excellent point. And you didn't even use the "best" example - the kids from CA!



> the schedule favors people in the SW given all of the USAT shoots save EJN/Nationals are over by June. That really helps those who are outside all year round


Jim, you make a good point too, which is why so many of us live in the SW   

I absolutely HATED giving away 1/2 of my year, every year, to crappy weather when I lived in the midwest.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

There are several key so hosting a quality event:

Venue: A place that can accommodate the indoor or outdoor event. Field, archers and spectator area, operations, safety area, parking.
Staff: People with the knowledge and commitment to execute the event.
Equipment: Target flags, targets matts, target stands, pass thru matts, stakes, ropes target numbers, score flip cards, lane lines, wind sock and poles, PA system, timing system, scoring system, lane numbers, canopies, chairs, clip boards, office, generators, internet connectivity, results displays, drinking water, port a lets, wash stations, extension cords, Dos Stand, Judge umbrellas, signage, concession area, awards podium, motorized cards, wagons, hammers
Supplies: Target faces, score cards, awards, office supplies, ice, toilet paper.
Venue rental fee.
Labor: Judges, field crew, Tech Delegate, Tourney Director, Results manager, Registration staff, Score card verification, Awards, IT.
Prize money, anti doping, international team provisions is another layer of expenses.
Starting from scratch costs are 10 of thousands of dollars in excess of the 30K of entry fees collected from 200 archers at $150 each.

I admire group that takes on the year around task of hosting a quality event. It’s a group effort, tournament director must be skilled at bringing people together. 
We are in the process of securing our host hotel for an event that is 9 month away. We have it easy, we have a field, experienced staff, equipment as well as WA, WAA, USAA, community and sponsor support of our archers. 
Anyone interested in hosting an event in 2014 should be well into the process already. 2015 is right around the corner, then it’s the Olympic year! 

Many try to put together something in less than a year. The event is marginal at best. The criticism results in bad feelings. The host bites the dust, and the search goes on.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So Bob, how about stepping up and offering your opinion. You have better DOS cred's than most. What would you do with Nationals if you were the almighty supreme ruler of all things archery?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> So Bob, how about stepping up and offering your opinion. You have better DOS cred's than most. What would you do with Nationals if you were the almighty supreme ruler of all things archery?


$$$ solves all ills when it comes to serving the sport. We can burden participants with entry fees, however, sponsorship is the best solution. To attract sponsors, we need good media coverage and excitement, such as elimination rounds provide. When sponsors see that supporting target archery is good business, they are more apt to sponsor. So all we do with social media, press access, announcers etc puts on the the path to sponsorship, just like NASCAR, and the ball sports.
So that's why you hear the DOS stand recognize our sponsor. They deserve it and we do what we can to attract more.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region...ilton/us-archery-boosts-butler-county-economy

The article on the economic impact of the tournament ends with the suggestion that the event will keep coming back because of the warm welcome from the community.

I'm not too sure what I'd do in Ohio -- maybe head south to the rural parts to see how the hill folk live or drive north to see if the Cuyahoga is still burning.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> $$$ solves all ills when it comes to serving the sport. We can burden participants with entry fees, however, sponsorship is the best solution. To attract sponsors, we need good media coverage and excitement, such as elimination rounds provide. When sponsors see that supporting target archery is good business, they are more apt to sponsor. So all we do with social media, press access, announcers etc puts on the the path to sponsorship, just like NASCAR, and the ball sports.
> So that's why you hear the DOS stand recognize our sponsor. They deserve it and we do what we can to attract more.


Guess I was looking for more specific things like venue, format, keeping it in one area, moving around, separate nationals vs. combined, etc... you know, the stuff we all argue about (in a friendly way, of course  )


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Guess I was looking for more specific things like venue, format, keeping it in one area, moving around, separate nationals vs. combined, etc... you know, the stuff we all argue about (in a friendly way, of course  )


I would like to see mixed teams. More coverage leading to more sponsors, leading to more money, resulting in better events and more choices. As the sport grows, there will be no choice but to conduct separate events. More money will also allow for professional archery event staff and the ability to host event where ever our events are welcomed.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> As the sport grows, there will be no choice but to conduct separate events


Then I'll ask you the same question I asked Rick McKinney (and he did not hesitate to provide an answer for)...

If we separate the events once again, who is the National Champion? The kid who wins Nationals, or the kid who wins JOAD Nationals?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Then I'll ask you the same question I asked Rick McKinney (and he did not hesitate to provide an answer for)...
> 
> If we separate the events once again, who is the National Champion? The kid who wins Nationals, or the kid who wins JOAD Nationals?


why does it matter? in several sports we have a closed national championship and a US Open. I think the kid who is #1 ranked in the Jr USAT standings is the national #1


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

and we have a national indoor championship too

in tennis we have (or had when was a kid)

national hardcourts

national grasscourts

national clay courts

so you could have three U 19 national champions


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> $$$ solves all ills when it comes to serving the sport. We can burden participants with entry fees, however, sponsorship is the best solution. To attract sponsors, we need good media coverage and excitement, such as elimination rounds provide. When sponsors see that supporting target archery is good business, they are more apt to sponsor. So all we do with social media, press access, announcers etc puts on the the path to sponsorship, just like NASCAR, and the ball sports.
> So that's why you hear the DOS stand recognize our sponsor. They deserve it and we do what we can to attract more.


Some big organizations do these events as a break even; some want to maximize their profit. I don't know what the financial expectation are for USAA, but with revenues now topping $100,000 I would think that there's plenty of money to make this happen anywhere.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Casualfoto said:


> Some big organizations do these events as a break even; some want to maximize their profit. I don't know what the financial expectation are for USAA, but with revenues now topping $100,000 I would think that there's plenty of money to make this happen anywhere.


At one point last week, one of my JOAD parents noted that there was over $105,000 on the field, in registration $ alone. Think about that...

Jim, myself and many others think it's silly to have a "JOAD National Champion" and a "National Champion" in the junior divisions. Your examples are from different surfaces, which makes more sense. Indoors or outdoors is that way. Indoor Champion and Outdoor Champion is like clay and grass. Different tournaments. I would support it more if one were determined from pure point totals (like Indoors) and the other from matchplay, as those are different skill sets. It's just an odd question to have to answer. Kinda like "what do you have to do to qualify for Nationals?" ha, ha. We should at least have a good answer when those very basic questions come up.

If the Jr. USAT #1 is the "National Champion" then why is one of my students carrying around a plaque that says "Grand National Champion" on it? See what I mean?

John


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Casualfoto said:


> Some big organizations do these events as a break even; some want to maximize their profit. I don't know what the financial expectation are for USAA, but with revenues now topping $100,000 I would think that there's plenty of money to make this happen anywhere.


You are quite naïve if you think the USAA profited or even came close to break even. The costs involved in running this event is far more than you realize. I struggle responding to you since I really do not know who you are. Either a troller or someone who just wants to say things confidentially but I do know a bit about the National Championship event costs. Although this event does not please everyone, I am quite sure that far more were pleased and happy with how it was organized, managed and provided great entertainment for the archers. 

And folks, be careful what you wish for. There might come a time that the USAA listens to your negative comments and decide to act on them. Maybe like a closed Nationals by invitation only for those they feel are qualified. This may start the ball rolling so that event the USAT events become closed. You could really open up a can of worms if you are not careful. I for one have always loved how the best of the best could be cordial, pleasant and even helpful to those less privileged at the National events. Let's hope it can continue to be open for all.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> If the Jr. USAT #1 is the "National Champion" then why is one of my students carrying around a plaque that says "Grand National Champion" on it? See what I mean?
> 
> John


I think we should just say "Champion of the Universe" and quit working up to it. After all, the IBO and ASA have World Champion titles and forget to invited the rest of the world so why shouldn't the USAA have something special too?


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I kind of see what you mean, and I say kind of, because I don’t really see this concept of Grand National Champion. Remember, this is one of the reasons I consider this to be a Grass Roots Tournament rather than the big holy grail of a National Championship for youth.

EJN is a national tournament; it follows the long established format with qualifying rounds and an OR round. Very standard! You would expect that he or she who wins the OR round would be the winner. But not here, and I don’t understand why? It makes no sense. You could argue that EJN crowns the #1 Jr. and Cadet USAT slots, but that argument only holds for this year because the season ended with this event. Normally the season would go on into August, September and maybe October. Consequently the USAT rankings are not finalized until all the tournaments are finished. 

It doesn’t even match the format of the other USAT shoots, where the Cadets don’t necessarily shoot an OR round, and the Jr’s shoot the OR round with the seniors, but the outcome of that OR (Jr or Cadet) round has no bearing on their USAT ranking. 

So I’m very confused :shade: , but I do think that this issue of National Champion is a matter of semantics. The answer could be as simple as just using the proper tournament name when citing the win. It’s either US National’s Champion or JOAD National’s Champion. The question is; who won the tournament? And it’s a murky answer.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> At one point last week, one of my JOAD parents noted that there was over $105,000 on the field, in registration $ alone. Think about that...
> 
> Jim, myself and many others think it's silly to have a "JOAD National Champion" and a "National Champion" in the junior divisions. Your examples are from different surfaces, which makes more sense. Indoors or outdoors is that way. Indoor Champion and Outdoor Champion is like clay and grass. Different tournaments. I would support it more if one were determined from pure point totals (like Indoors) and the other from matchplay, as those are different skill sets. It's just an odd question to have to answer. Kinda like "what do you have to do to qualify for Nationals?" ha, ha. We should at least have a good answer when those very basic questions come up.
> 
> ...


Given there are no real college scholarships for archery etc, I don't really understand what the big issue is. For example, when I shot collegiate skeet, there was no collegiate division in the NSSA but a few years later there was. There was a collegiate skeet championship that only had college shooters- if you won that you were the collegiate national champion. But at the "world shoot" (which was the US national championship, they added a collegiate division in the Junior tournament) you could win that in the collegiate division and thus you won the collegiate division at our national championships. Just like what we had in the NAA a few years ago-a Junior only shoot (JOAD) and then a National event with JOAD divisions. Everyone of us who was a collegiate shooter or former collegiate national champion or medalist, knew the difference. I never had a sponsor worry either. I guess the only time there would be an issue is if your Grand National Champion was trying to get a sponsorship with say Hoyt or Easton or some other maker and the Girl who won another national title was also in the mix


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Rick McKinney said:


> I think we should just say "Champion of the Universe" and quit working up to it. After all, the IBO and ASA have World Champion titles and forget to invited the rest of the world so why shouldn't the USAA have something special too?


Good point, I remember some obscure maker bragged about some guy who "won" more "world championships" than anyone. (including You and Darrell). I checked and his "championships" was some low circulation 3d style event that was limited to a couple states in the middle of the USA. And yet there were people on this board-mainly foam bunny shooters, who claimed that those world championships meant as much as the FITA world title where people have to go through demanding selection processes to even appear at the tournament. To the uninformed, it might mean something. TO anyone who actually has standing in the sport, no one is going to think some guy who beats three of his buddies in a tournament no one in say California, Florida or Ohio (let alone Italy, Korea, Sweden and England) has ever heard of is the same thing as what you won three times


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> I think we should just say "Champion of the Universe" and quit working up to it. After all, the IBO and ASA have World Champion titles and forget to invited the rest of the world so why shouldn't the USAA have something special too?


LOL! I love it.



> Although this event does not please everyone, I am quite sure that far more were pleased and happy with how it was organized, managed and provided great entertainment for the archers.


You are absolutely correct Rick. But don't confuse a discussion of alternatives with criticism. At least not on my part. The only thing I can really criticize about last week was the location of the practice bales that had archers shooting blank bale nearly DIRECTLY AT some of the bowmen teams while they were scoring arrows. I'm sure some could (and did) complain with great vigor about the way the clout event was handled. But all in all it's truly amazing how well things went considering the size of the field and number of archers. I told Denise as much, and I think I told Sheri too, but if I didn't, I certainly meant to. My hat is off to them for stepping up and managing such a huge event, not long after losing their events manager. 

But let's not sit on our hands and just concede that everything is perfect. There is always room for improvement. I'm sure Bob would agree with that. 

As for the combined or separate events, qualifications or no qualifications, they are just topics to discuss. I personally don't have real strong feelings about them one way or the other. 

By now, I've conceded that even experienced JOAD program leaders and state JOAD coordinators like myself have no real influence over the way Nationals will be run. There are too many veterans of the NAA moving behind the scenes and making decisions that we'll never see or know about for someone like me or Jim or Liz or others at our level to have much say in it all.

Anyone who really wants to know who really pulls the strings in USArchery should ask me about a comment one of the event coordinators made last week that was just remarkable. Nothing that surprised me, but it was a confirmation of what I had believed for many years now.

That's just how it is. And frankly, now that I've learned to accept that, I sleep a lot better at night.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One of the things I'd like to see USArchery do with this event is to name the USAT and Jr. USAT teams on the spot.

When else will you ever have them all together? The conclusion of Nationals is the perfect venue to recognize those team members, take group photos, announce that all over the twittersphere, and give them all the recognition they deserve. Because it's one thing to come to Nationals and shoot well, but another thing to shoot well all season, travel all over the U.S. and earn a spot on the U.S. or Jr. U.S. Archery Team. It's time we recognize those teams at Nationals, in real time, so they get the recognition they deserve from their peers.

John


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> One of the things I'd like to see USArchery do with this event is to name the USAT and Jr. USAT teams on the spot.
> John


This was the norm years ago. At the annual banquet, the USAT and Jr. USAT members were announced. Thus the photo sessions and acknowledgement among their peers were accepted at the event. I do not know when or why or how it was changed.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good to know. Something we need to bring back.

I remember the awards banquet at Co Springs in 2006 and it was really a nice touch. I hope to see this brought back in the future. One of my archers left the event with a question still in their mind whether they made Jr. USAT, which really is an awkward way to finish a very long season. 

We were fairly certain they had, but I felt USArchery missed an opportunity there to calculate the results, name the team members, recognize them for the HUGE accomplishment that it is, and then promote them as the US and Jr. US Archery TEAM for 2014.

Awards banquets can be very long and very boring, but how many times now have the Olympic team members been paraded out? I would think we could spend some time - esp. since the Olympics were over a year ago - to do the same with our USAT members.

John


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Casualfoto said:


> I kind of see what you mean, and I say kind of, because I don’t really see this concept of Grand National Champion. Remember, this is one of the reasons I consider this to be a Grass Roots Tournament rather than the big holy grail of a National Championship for youth.
> 
> EJN is a national tournament; it follows the long established format with qualifying rounds and an OR round. Very standard! You would expect that he or she who wins the OR round would be the winner. But not here, and I don’t understand why? It makes no sense. You could argue that EJN crowns the #1 Jr. and Cadet USAT slots, but that argument only holds for this year because the season ended with this event. Normally the season would go on into August, September and maybe October. Consequently the USAT rankings are not finalized until all the tournaments are finished.
> 
> ...


I think that the ranking round is really two separate tournaments for the JOAD kids -- the national tournament and an international tournament. The OR rounds are an international tournament where anyone of the correct age from any country participates. This benefits the athletes because this is after all Junior Olympic Archery Development and they get to compete in an international tournament without even leaving the country. They (the powers that be) made a great decision.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, that was true right up until the Chinese archers all went home. Apparently, if you use the brackets as a guide, even our own USArchery officials were not expecting that move.

Hope they didn't leave mad.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Meghan and I talked to a few of the Taipei shooters and one of their coach/chaperones after the ranking round and she said they weren't sure they were going to come for the OR. They gave no reason and we didn't want to pry. We made it quite clear that they would be greatly missed if they did not come. We have always looked at competitions from the standpoint that we want to be able to go up against the best that are able to come. I personally feel we missed out because they didn't show.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'd like to hear an explanation as to why they didn't shoot the OR, and also why USArchery didn't adjust the brackets accordingly. To me, those are two very important, and fundamental questions at an event like this. They have a long history of attending our Nationals.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I'd like to hear an explanation as to why they didn't shoot the OR, and also why USArchery didn't adjust the brackets accordingly. To me, those are two very important, and fundamental questions at an event like this. They have a long history of attending our Nationals.


I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have a "team meeting" for international teams, ranking, team rounds and ORs could be discussed, for JOADs, EJN team rounds info could be presented and for the NTC, Open team rounds info would be offered. Internationally team meeting often take place during official practice day. Hummmm...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So Bob, did you not know they were going to miss the OR?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> So Bob, did you not know they were going to miss the OR?


Speaking from a judge perspective - both myself and Chris Dorow were extremely surprised when the Chinese Taipei group were no shows. He had two no shows on his clipboard while I had three.

The kids that were scheduled to shoot against the no shows were pleased - they basically got an automatic bye by default.

-Steve


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> So Bob, did you not know they were going to miss the OR?


 I dont follow the entirety of the whole event however, I like the idea of a team leaders meeting in combination with a team rounds processes meeting for all to share information.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Speaking from a judge perspective - both myself and Chris Dorow were extremely surprised when the Chinese Taipei group were no shows. He had two no shows on his clipboard while I had three.
> 
> The kids that were scheduled to shoot against the no shows were pleased - they basically got an automatic bye by default.
> 
> -Steve


 You know my opinion, internationally, the ranking round is just to seed match play. Missing the ORs is missing the event. The international level is where the rubber meets the road. Local, State, Regional and National competition are stepping stone to the World Archery stage. Those that focus on the ranking round are missing the boat. We do our archers a dis-service when we give them focus on the ranking round only to nationally. All to often when they reach the world stage, they are ill prepared for the match play focus and suffer the consequences.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Although this event does not please everyone, I am quite sure that far more were pleased and happy with how it was organized, managed and provided great entertainment for the archers.


Having be a Tournament Director for many Nationals and State tournaments, you are very correct. There are always a small percentage of people who always think that if you just listen to them it would of be so much better tournament.



Rick McKinney said:


> And folks, be careful what you wish for. There might come a time that the USAA listens to your negative comments and decide to act on them. Maybe like a closed Nationals by invitation only for those they feel are qualified. This may start the ball rolling so that event the USAT events become closed. You could really open up a can of worms if you are not careful. I for one have always loved how the best of the best could be cordial, pleasant and even helpful to those less privileged at the National events. Let's hope it can continue to be open for all.


Again Rick you are correct with that also. As I stated before, I like having an open tournament. Some people talk about how the elites are catered to, but we have an open tournament were you may shoot with or against these elites. I would ask someone how their tournament was going and they would tell me I got to shoot with or against Brady, Jake or Jacob. "Lost the match but it was great to shoot against them". They may get to meet top archers from Mexico and Canada.

When JOAD Nationals was a separate event at a different time, The Kids shot their JrUSAT event. They had already crowned their National Champion. But again this is a chance for the JOAD's to see the people that they idolize. That is why I would like to see it go back to having two events.

I hear a lot what was wrong about things on AT. So trying to be positive, what went right? :set1_applaud:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Again, Steve, I don't know why anyone would feel that anyone thinks the event was a disaster, poorly run, etc. It wasn't. It was A WELL RUN EVENT. I want to be clear that I feel that way, and I contratulate you, Bob, Darrell, Sheri, Denise, Jenni and all the judges and volunteers who pulled off the largest Nationals in history! 

So yes, indeed a great amount of congratulations are in order for so many who ran the event. :star:


But please, let's not just put on our rose colored glasses and throw our arms out patting one another on the backs either. There is always room for improvement and obvious errors that should be pointed out so they do NOT happen again. 

To me, the way the clout event was mismanaged was an obvious error. 

To me, starting the scoring for the US Open matchplay 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time was an obvious error.

To me, completely missing the fact that the Chinese pulled out of the OR was an obvious error. (did they not tell anyone, and just leave in the middle of the night? If they did tell someone, it seems that person(s) cared so little about how their absence would affect the final rankings that they just went to bed instead of doing something about it...) So we had kids who never shot an arrow, and found themselves in the semi-finals...???

If pointing some of these things out is too uncomfortable for some, then I suggest they get thicker skin, or, next time, help ensure that we don't make the most basic of errors.

I will add that NONE of these things affected any of the seven archers I had at the event, so they were obvious enough to me that I noticed them despite that fact. 

I will also say that more than once last week, out of the mouth of one of the co-directors, I heard comments like "well, too bad, get over it" when things like the clout event or several other questions were raised. The total lack of caring for aspects of this event that are important to many attendees is an attitude that I refuse to tolerate. I would put money on those same individuals making damn sure the issue got resolved if it was going to affect one of our "elite" archers. The pure lack of concern for amateur members is staggering at times, and has no place in our organization IMO.

John


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

> I will also say that more than once last week, out of the mouth of one of the co-directors, I heard comments like "well, too bad, get over it" when things like the clout event or several other questions were raised. The total lack of caring for aspects of this event that are important to many attendees is an attitude that I refuse to tolerate. I would put money on those same individuals making damn sure the issue got resolved if it was going to affect one of our "elite" archers. The pure lack of concern for amateur members is staggering at times, and has no place in our organization IMO.


John, in the classic management book, "In Search of Excellence" this is referred to as "thinly disguised contempt". Airlines are famous for it.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree with Limbwalker that this year's tournament was well run, for the most part. The weather was cooler and less humid early, but became oppressive near the end. And apparently was in the "danger" zone as folks searched for lost arrows in the week following the "Big Show." My son was delighted to shoot one round of clout and was lucky to be next to Ian Coomb who helped with the aiming at clouds technique. Nobody was able to give a coherent explanation why a field with distances between 110 and 185 meters needed to be dismantled after the weather delay. Seemed reasonable to just over the short distance targets, which might have been the original plan.

I shot Nationals in Colorado Springs several times in the past with delightful weather, some afternoon storms but as locals point out "if you don't like the weather in Colorado, wait ten minutes." For those who live in the northern latitudes and out west the humidity and heat index are difficult. Tyler was in Alaska prior to the tournament and I thought maybe some time with his thera-band in a stream room might be prudent training. 

Living in Alaska for over a decade the maps of "America" or "outside" are frequently discussed. Representing oil companies I often needed to point out to my Texan friends that Alaska is big, Texas medium sized. The assertion that Ohio is "centrally located" for the membership doesn't seem to stand up well geographically, it is directly north of the Florida panhandle. The tally demonstrates the majority of archers travel great distances to compete. While many of us would love a road trip adventure like Steve Yee and family we are already taking at least a week off flying across the country and back. Maybe having Nationals rotate back and forth between Ohio and Colorado would give a "bi-coastal centrality" to Nationals. 

In addition, I think Limbwalker's point is well made about expenses. Ohio hotels aren't cheap for the competitors and USA staff. The ability to reduce the expenditures borne by USA Archery to house, feed and transport officials, RA's, staff and volunteers by them staying at the OTC makes sense. I overheard one major official discussing the possibility of the Ohio event maybe "breaking even" for once.

The past two years, I have either been demoted or promoted depending on one's perspective, to coach, and we have had considerable success in Ohio. The combined event is great for those with adult and young shooters as it is a chance for both to shoot on the same line. Having the lines broken out so some adults can coach the kids shooting off cycle was nice in the past. 

As many have pointed out, most of us will go wherever it is held. Certainly weather is a consideration, as are expenses for both the archers and organization. I think we might like Ohio better in the spring and fall, like Arizona. Maybe we could have Nationals in Anchorage one year where we could have midnight lines and no threat of lightning. I want to thank USA Archery and the Ohio organization for a great tournament. See you all next year.


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## Archery Ang (Apr 24, 2006)

I had a less than awesome encounter with one of the Judges/shooting directors on the day of Official practice(not sure who she was; never seen her before. We got to practice and the distances were not marked on the JOAD side. It's hard to tell what distances are where, so I asked a lady who was in the dos booth at the time if there was a list of distances for the bales. she showed me her handwritten list and said "here they are". I asked her if there was another list I could see to get the distances for my girls who were about to practice. Her response was "you just saw it", and she turned away from me. I was like "wow, really???". Luckily Miss Jane was there and heard the exchange. She showed me her list again and let me write them down so I would have them. Jane is top-notch. The other lady...not so much.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Archery Ang said:


> I had a less than awesome encounter with one of the Judges/shooting directors on the day of Official practice(not sure who she was; never seen her before. We got to practice and the distances were not marked on the JOAD side. It's hard to tell what distances are where, so I asked a lady who was in the dos booth at the time if there was a list of distances for the bales. she showed me her handwritten list and said "here they are". I asked her if there was another list I could see to get the distances for my girls who were about to practice. Her response was "you just saw it", and she turned away from me. I was like "wow, really???". Luckily Miss Jane was there and heard the exchange. She showed me her list again and let me write them down so I would have them. Jane is top-notch. The other lady...not so much.


 I was asked for about distances and a variety of other questions, all were directed to others.

As east field DOS, I focused on visually scanning the field for clearance and safety (Many were behind the targets looking for arrows and we didn't have radio communications yet) running the timer, announcing information, monitoring the approaching weather, balancing the sound system and orienting myself for the upcoming competition, schedule, field crew and field set up. 
If west was rude to you, the east DOS was not even neighborly... As DOS, part of the job to answer questions, however, I try to focus on serving the overall shooting line to avoid the angry looks of the archers as they wonder why I am chatting and slow to start the timer when a practice shortening storm is approaching. The safe thing to do as DOS is deflect all questions. 

Later I was able to ask how I could help as archers came forward with questions, some of my responses were short as I am always keeping my eye on serving the entire field. My favorite DOS procedure is to listen to a questions and then inform all over the PA system. If one person asks where the target pins and target faces are or where to turn in score cards, likely others have the same question. Sometimes the archers get a little frustrated that I turn away from them before answering, but they get over it when they hear their answer over the PA.

I hope this information helps folks better understand how officials conduct themselves. For the most part, rude, selfish people don't volunteer their time to serve the archers and the sport as judges and officials. Where is that "Hung a Judge" shirt? Jane should have several.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Serious Fun said:


> I was asked for about distances and a variety of other questions, all were directed to others.
> 
> As east field DOS, I focused on visually scanning the field for clearance and safety (Many were behind the targets looking for arrows and we didn't have radio communications yet) running the timer, announcing information, monitoring the approaching weather, balancing the sound system and orienting myself for the upcoming competition, schedule, field crew and field set up.
> If west was rude to you, the east DOS was not even neighborly... As DOS, part of the job to answer questions, however, I try to focus on serving the overall shooting line to avoid the angry looks of the archers as they wonder why I am chatting and slow to start the timer when a practice shortening storm is approaching. The safe thing to do as DOS is deflect all questions.
> ...


Did you mean "Hug a Judge"? Surely we don't want to hang them, right? :wink:


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Yikes, that was more than unfortunate... "Hug a Judge" "Hug Jane" by all means! What the heck, hug someone and make them smile, it will make you feel better too.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> Yikes, that was more than unfortunate... "Hug a Judge" "Hug Jane" by all means! What the heck, hug someone and make them smile, it will make you feel better too.


Hugs all around my Archery Family.
Cheers
Fritz


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Serious Fun said:


> Where is that "Hung a Judge" shirt?


Bob, You crack me up!  Out of the mouths of.....judges Keep up the great work!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jane always gets two hugs from me at every event - one when I get there, and one before I leave. We all know how strict she is, but she also makes sure we all know how much she cares.

Someone once said, when referring to leadership, that "Nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care." 

Good words to live by.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Shall we do special HUG A JUDGE T-SHIRTS for next year?!!
Sizes? M, L and XL...with a special one for our fav...MISS JANE! She always gets major huggage from me! I love that gal! She loves the kids, and THAT in my book is extra special! I remember last year (2012)....May have been 2010, she drove up here (alone I think), in her white van. That is dedication!

Nonetheless, thank you to all the judges! You did a bang up fantastic job! Announcers too! It was a great tourney!



Serious Fun said:


> Yikes, that was more than unfortunate... "Hug a Judge" "Hug Jane" by all means! What the heck, hug someone and make them smile, it will make you feel better too.


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