# how about a controversial post!!!!



## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

I do. I use it as a starting point...I figure if the arrow isn't leaving the bow with a good flight path you'll be forever fighting an uphill climb. That said, I get it close and head outside to walk back tune. Rarely is it off very much so I use it as a tool, not the only tool, for center shot determination.


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

I am anxious to hear the reactions to this. I am learning a lot recently about tuning a bow and was assuming that paper tuning would be almost a given for a field archery bow considering how far we are flinging these arrows. As Ron Meadows said, if it leaves the bow bad, that can't be a good start!


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I do too. I usually shoot through paper from 7' to 20 yds. If it's clean all the way back, things usually group well. But I'm not afraid of making a tweak here and there if I need to. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tabarch (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes BG, I consider it as a starting point and then go to walk back, it's just another tool.


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## fastarrow (Nov 19, 2003)

Nope, I do a walkback tune and then group tune at 60 yds. Just tweak and play until I get my tightest groups. I don't care what my shafts are doing 5 yards out of the bow as long as they all hit where I am aiming.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

I rarely do anymore. I have seen some bows shoot perfect bullet holes but they won't group worth a darn at longer distances.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Paper tuning up close is useless. About 9 to 11 yards is the maximun tear on a decent tuned arrow before employing fine tuning methods.

I use all methods, paper, bare shaft, walk-back, and group.

Over the many years I have been doing this, I have learned that getting the swoop out of the nock path as much as possible is the first order of business. I have a tool that will show me what the nock path is doing in the vertical plane. This can involve moving limbs around on the bow, mixing limbs from different sets, negative tiller adjustment, and slightly oddball cam synchronization adjustments.

I have also learned what I am looking for, and why, and can usually move quickly to the necessary base setup for the bow, before moving to fine tuning adjustments.


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*Me Too*

I paper tune also. Have been known to spend an entire afternoon in the garage shooting holes in paper, well maybe more than one afternoon if things aren't going just right. I tune from 3' to 17' as that is what I have available and so far when I have bullet holes at both distances there isn't anything left to do. I have tried walk back tuning and think its a good procedure but so far it's only been a confirmation of the paper tuning.

Another reason I like paper tuning is that I can't get out to a range as much as I would like but can always make it to the garage for some short range shooting.
Its also nice to be right next to all of your tools.

Good luck.

sawdust2


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

The good starting point theory is pretty much what killed my paper rack. I could get a good starting point just by looking at it. So I would just skip the paper, and head straight to walkback tuning. 

So the big question is if paper tuning is only a good place to start, and one can eyeball a center shot reasonably close then why bother with the paper at all. I can eyeball my rest, and be with in a couple 32nds of an inch to perfect when I do my walk back tune. So is there any other reason I should be shooting paper?


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*No Reason*

You obviously don't like paper tuning and don't want to do it so why worry about it. This is a very individual sport so do what you like. I doubt that there could be anything said that would change your mind and thats fine with me but I would like to hear why paper tuning gets some folks so bent out of shape.

Good shooting.

sawdust2


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

I never do it.. I shot through paper on occasion just to see what it does. Last time I did it I laughed at the tear and walked away... I usually start with the modified french tuning and then start group tuning.. Although, the more I read and discuss, and the closer I get to shooting good scores, I have started considering putting more effort into creep tuning and possibly even some bare shaft work as well.


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## captain71 (Oct 16, 2009)

how do you walk back tuning


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

JawsDad said:


> I never do it.. I shot through paper on occasion just to see what it does. Last time I did it I laughed at the tear and walked away... I usually start with the modified french tuning and then start group tuning.. Although, the more I read and discuss, and the closer I get to shooting good scores, I have started considering putting more effort into creep tuning and possibly even some bare shaft work as well.


That was pretty much the point of this thread. It's not that I don't like paper tuning, I just don't find in necessary for the most part. But I have heard a few guys who shoot better than I do talking about paper tuning. So I got to thinking, maybe I was missing something, maybe there was more to it than just a starting point. I guess I was hoping to hear differently than what I already thought. 

But at the same time I am very interested in what methods other people are using, as I am always looking for ways to do things better.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

captain71 said:


> how do you walk back tuning


Start at 20 yards.
Put a small dot near the top of the target.
Shoot 1 arrow at 20 yards using your 20 yard pin.
Hang a weighted string from the arrow shot at 20 yards.
Walk back to 40 yards, and shoot a group of arrows at the same dot still using your 20 yard setting. this group will hit lower than the arrow shot at 20, but should be directly in line with it. If the group is off to one side or the other of the string move your rest in the direction you need the group to move.
Once 20, and 40 are hitting in line repeat at 20 and 60 for fine tuning.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

BOWGOD said:


> That was pretty much the point of this thread. It's not that I don't like paper tuning, I just don't find in necessary for the most part. But I have heard a few guys who shoot better than I do talking about paper tuning. So I got to thinking, maybe I was missing something, maybe there was more to it than just a starting point. I guess I was hoping to hear differently than what I already thought.
> 
> But at the same time I am very interested in what methods other people are using, as I am always looking for ways to do things better.



Nuts&Bolts had a pretty good post out in Gen Pop about what he does to tune. It was in discussion about how far to shoot a bare shaft. It's a pretty good read.. Definitely had me thinking about all the things I don't do to tune my bow.

In years past I was spending more time tuning myself than my bow. There were way more flaws in my form than the bow was ever going to help. As I've gotten more consistent and my scores have improved, I'm looking at those little things in tuning to help along the way.


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## Nomad_Archer (Aug 27, 2008)

I paper tune because I am still learning how to set my own bow up. I used ot let the shop do all the work but I wanted to be self sufficient so I paper tune to get started then go from there. Speaking of learning. I will be teaching myself how to do a cam swap and string replacement in the next few weeks and then tuning the bow and getting everything set up just right. Should be fun.


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Just curious?*



BOWGOD said:


> Start at 20 yards.
> Put a small dot near the top of the target.
> Shoot 1 arrow at 20 yards using your 20 yard pin.
> Hang a weighted string from the arrow shot at 20 yards.
> ...


How do you know if your nock/rest height is right? High nock, low nock? All that's been done in the above method, is set your center shot?


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I start with paper to get my nock height. Then I make sure My bubble on my sight is set to the string with the bow leaned back slightly to simulate shooting slightly uphill. I use a plumb-bob and a bow vise for this. I center tune my arrow with a broadhead on my field arrow. I have a weight matched arrow with 75 gr 3 blade muzzy. At 50 yards I tune my arrows to hit the same dot. This is the method I have used for years with my hunting bows and 125gr heads. After Muzzy started making 75 gr heads, I applied it to my field bow tuning and it works well for me. 
I use Lightspeed 3D 400's for field, 3D, and Hunting. My pretty red Parker bow has taken several whitetails. It is the best broadhead shooting bow I have owned.

If I shot nano's this method might be difficult.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> I start with paper to get my nock height. Then I make sure My bubble on my sight is set to the string with the bow leaned back slightly to simulate shooting slightly uphill. I use a plumb-bob and a bow vise for this. *I center tune my arrow with a broadhead on my field arrow.* I have a weight matched arrow with 75 gr 3 blade muzzy. At 50 yards I tune my arrows to hit the same dot. This is the method I have used for years with my hunting bows and 125gr heads. After Muzzy started making 75 gr heads, I applied it to my field bow tuning and it works well for me.
> I use Lightspeed 3D 400's for field, 3D, and Hunting. My pretty red Parker bow has taken several whitetails. It is the best broadhead shooting bow I have owned.
> 
> If I shot nano's this method might be difficult.


Shh.. yer givin away my secret.. :zip: :secret: :lol:

I too broadhead tune.. it works for my hunting rigs, they will cut arrows up at 50yds with broadheads on em. Sometimes I'll shoot paper, sometimes a walkback tune, but.. if I can get my 100gr 3bl fixed bh's to fly with my field points, the arrows are comin off straight and true..


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

IGluIt4U said:


> Shh.. yer givin away my secret.. :zip: :secret: :lol:
> 
> I too broadhead tune.. it works for my hunting rigs, they will cut arrows up at 50yds with broadheads on em. Sometimes I'll shoot paper, sometimes a walkback tune, but.. if I can get my 100gr 3bl fixed bh's to fly with my field points, the arrows are comin off straight and true..



Exactly:wink:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

pennysdad said:


> How do you know if your nock/rest height is right? High nock, low nock? All that's been done in the above method, is set your center shot?


I just use a couple of levels. I set the bow up in a vice, make sure it is straight up, and down, put a level on the string. Then nock an arrow, put a small piece of foam under the rest launcher so that the weight of the level doesn't push down on it. And put a small torpedo on the arrow to make sure it's level. If I'm shooting a prong rest I set it dead level, if I'm shooting a blade I set it so the bubble is just offset indicating slight nock high.

I used the same method back when I used to papertune everything, and after doing it several times I found that this method works very well for setting nock height.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

*Not very often*

I only paper tune if I'm having problems with the other methods because it lets me "see" what the arrow is doing to straighten itself out.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

*Still learning*

About a year ago I was taught how to paper and group tune, but as a rank beginner, my shots were so inconsistent neither method was of much help. :embara: Now that I have actually started putting my arrows where I’m aiming, I like to paper tune to make sure the arrows are leaving the rest in a predictable manner and reset my nocking point and/or twist a nock or two if needed. 

I then group tune at 40 and 60 yards for the finer stuff. I also make note of any d-loop deflection and correct that to ensure straight nock travel. :wink:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

When I was setting up my 3D arrows, i was originally shooting Blazers. Due to the fletchings hitting the cables, I had to change to a lower profile vane. Shooting through paper allowed me to experiment a little. I tried the 2.25 Shield cut X-Vane and it wouldn't shoot a bullet hole no matter where I set the rest. I switched to Mini Blazers and even though it was a shorter vane it had a higher profile. The arrows shot clean all the way back to 20 yds. 

It's nice to be able to "see" what the vanes are doing to correct the arrow.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

I tune all my bows(indoors and outdoors) at about 18YDS. I figure if it's stablized to give me a bullet hole at that distance, it should be good to go the rest of the way. Never had any issues that way, and it must work to stay in the 50's outdoors.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

In addition when I started to learn to tune (way back when) I was told to go for a slightly high left tear. The left part of it was due to the risers not being cut past center so that part has gone away. I still like to see a touch high tear when I do shoot through the paper though.


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## WrongdayJ (May 22, 2008)

I have used paper tuning with OK results, but always had to fine-tune using other methods get the desired results. So then I just quit paper tuning altogether because I kept having to use other methods anyway.

So I guess it is a good tool to 'rough in' your set-up and get 'close', but it is by no means the best tuning tool there is- and I wouldn't ever rely on a strictly paper-tuned bow for accuracy when it counts (like in a shoot, or on a hunt).


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

How about a controversial post to go with your "controversial thread" :wink:

Walk Back Tuning is a waste of time.....

and I am not joking...I mean it. At least as much of a waste of time as some find to paper tuning to be.

A lot of people will paper tune until the cows come home... I don't do all that but I want to know what the arrow is doing coming out of the bow....so I paper tune and group tune mostly....with a little tiller tuning in there if need be. 

Paper tuning does more then tell you if your arrows aren't coming out straight. But unless I have an issue some place I usually don't need to shoot more then 3 arrows to get a high left tear. 

Then group tune....if you have a good tear....or know your starting point your not going to be way off on your center shot anyway. But I you can get a bow to WB tune at the distances that most do it with an arrow flight that looks like a fat kind doing a cart wheel down a rocky slope. 

Paper tune....then go back to 50 or 60 or 70 and group tune....if you start with a nock high left tear you shouldn't really have to move your rest more then one or two clicks left or right to find your sweet spot. You can also adjust your nocking point or rest group tuning. 

and creep tuning has nothing to do with getting good arrow flight.....set your top cam ahead a touch and you shouldn't be more then a twist or so off on that either :wink:

Unless my third axis has been off....I have NEVER fought left and rights going back in distance...NEVER 

Walk back tuning after words shows me what I already knew....but like I said WB tuning can lie to you. Heck I was having an issue right before LAS with my setup....wouldn't paper tune...wb tuning showed it was ok actually almost got a robin hood at 35yds with 2314s....but I still had a 3-4" right tear and you could see the arrow flying like poo. But it walk back tuned ok :thumb: :doh:


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## va MTN MAN (Jan 24, 2003)

Have any of you ever got a perfect hole in paper and then had to move your rest for walk back tunning, I dont see how that would be possible. If the arrow is straight at 3 feet and about 9 or 10 feet then the vanes keep it straight till it hits the ground or target. I think what some do wrong with paper tunning is only check it right at the paper where a tiny little tear will show up as a much larger tear at 6 or 8 feet. (hasnt had time to swing to the worse point) Also you need to use newspaper or something of the same composition, I have seen many people use computer paper or thicker that has a tendency to guide the back of the arrow through. I have been tunning bows for 30 years and I have never had a bow that would shoot consistent clean holes in paper that wont shoot fixed blade broadheads and field point to the same point out to 40 yards. ( i have found that if they shoot the same at 40 they are good to 100 and i can shoot them more consistant at 40)
One note on dropaway rests make sure the nock is high when you start because a low nock on a dropaway rest will not show you a low tear like it will on a launcher type rest and will make your tunning life pure hell, it will show left and right tears when your center shot is good so start your nock high and set the centershot and slowly move your nock down. I think alot of the tunning problems we hear about in the last few years are because people want to set there center shot by eye or what the manufactor says and not what your bow and arrow combination tells you. I have to move my rest 3/32 between my field arrows and hunting arrows because of a spine difference. Even though a lighter spined arrow will shoot great and tune well my heaver spined arrow will shoot broadheads tighter.

This all said after paper tuning group check and move the rest slightly to try different spots. My best groups are with a 1/4 high tear.


TUNE On


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

va MTN MAN said:


> Have any of you ever got a perfect hole in paper and then had to move your rest for walk back tunning, I dont see how that would be possible. ...


Sometimes, but its only a little...like a 1/4 turn or less on an infinity rest. 

Where I live and have my range is a side hill. Makes walkback a little tougher because constant bubble maintenance is needed (I actually get to leaning the opposite way when I shoot indoors or on level ground) so I don't even put a lot of effort towards it anymore. 

I'm only interested in how tight of groups I can shoot and that takes time and documentation.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> ----and that takes time and documentation.


I am with you on the documentation. Hard to tell if your there if you don't know where you started and where you been.


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> Sometimes, but its only a little...like a 1/4 turn or less on an infinity rest.
> 
> Where I live and have my range is a side hill. Makes walkback a little tougher because constant bubble maintenance is needed (I actually get to leaning the opposite way when I shoot indoors or on level ground) so I don't even put a lot of effort towards it anymore.
> 
> I'm only interested in how tight of groups I can shoot and that takes time and documentation.


Also, on Bobmuley's range, you only get about 45 minutes to shoot before it gets too dark. That is the only time the grass isn't moving.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

The Swami said:


> Also, on Bobmuley's range, you only get about 45 minutes to shoot before it gets too dark. That is the only time the grass isn't moving.


True that. I need another target facing west so I can take advantage of the 45 minutes in the morning too.:thumbs_up


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> True that. I need another target facing west so I can take advantage of the 45 minutes in the morning too.:thumbs_up


That would be great! I hope it is set up for my next visit. 

You don't have time to shoot right now anyways. It has to be getting close to kitten season and you got branding etc. to do. 

I paper tune to see how my rest centershot is and my nock height, that is it. After that I tune the bow for groups. Who cares what the paper says after I get the groups where I want.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

BOWGOD said:


> Start at 20 yards.
> Put a small dot near the top of the target.
> Shoot 1 arrow at 20 yards using your 20 yard pin.
> Hang a weighted string from the arrow shot at 20 yards.
> ...


Now there's a waste of time right there...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> How about a controversial post to go with your "controversial thread" :wink:
> 
> Walk Back Tuning is a waste of time.....
> 
> ...


Just noticed my buddy Hornet beat me to it...


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## Rick9 (Jun 25, 2008)

Interesting thread
Seems like lots of folks "group tune"
Don't want to hijack the thread, but what exactly do folks mean by this, and how do they do it?
I know the idea is to make adjustments to shrink the size of the groups out at longer distance.
Anyone care to provide a step by step on how to do this?
Thanks


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Rick9 said:


> Interesting thread
> Seems like lots of folks "group tune"
> Don't want to hijack the thread, but what exactly do folks mean by this, and how do they do it?
> I know the idea is to make adjustments to shrink the size of the groups out at longer distance.
> ...


When I started the thing to use were pie plates. I've found that desert plates, or single spot NFAA faces work just as well (I actully like the NFAA single faces because I can just observe groups without having to move my sight so much. 

Take a "target" and shoot 3 groups at it...label the target as "START". I look at the groups "shape" and document its size. 

I use the groups shape to determine what I need to work on from there...some folks like turning a limb bolt, or both; make small adjustments to the rest left and right, or even slight drawlength changes. Just make sure you label each target with the change you made to the bow and document each change's result. 

When you make a change it will have an affect on the group's size (and shape alot of times) either for the better or for the worse. If it get's better....don't go "that way" anymore. If it gets better, keep going until it does get worse. Keep all those targets (with their nice labels) as a reference for the next step. 

When you can't possibly get it to shoot smaller groups...change arrow spines and start all over. :wink:


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Hey Bob - how about the notion to get all you can get out of it with a group tune using your method THEN play with draw weight up/down a lb at a time to find the sweet spot in the spine without buying another dozen arrows.

Thoughts???


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

JayMc said:


> Hey Bob - how about the notion to get all you can get out of it with a group tune using your method THEN play with draw weight up/down a lb at a time to find the sweet spot in the spine without buying another dozen arrows.
> 
> Thoughts???


...where's the fun it that? :wink: Tinkeritis is a chronic condition. 

Keep in mind that draw weight changes also makes small draw length changes in most bows (some more than others). I often wonder "why" it improves or degrades the group/holding ability when I do that...is it do to the small DL change, or is it due to the poundage being better matched to the spine. I don't dwell on it long though, I often just accept better for what it is.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

If I'm looking for a starting place to set up a new bow, I use a program like TAP or OT2 or AA and plug in a proposed setup the way I think I want it and see what arrows it requires to get dead center on the spine selector. Then when I actually go build the arrow, I cut it 1-1.5" longer than what the program suggested. Then I shoot paper.

I am hoping that by doing this, the arrow shows a weak tear and I can fix it simply by cutting the arrow down . Once I get the tear real close, I may start to fidget with the rest a little but I usually start it at 13/16 as Hoyt recommends. Once I have my clean or slightly nock high tear all the way back to 20 yds, I group tune. And by group tune, I mean shoot them at 50 yds and see if they wad up. They should and usually do.

Haven't had any trouble with the way my arrows fly. My marks is usually where I lack.


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*How Bout An Example*

In the interest of learning,which this thread is about, could someone show some diagrams of "group" tuning groups and the appropriate corrections to try on which part of the bow.

Right now it sounds like you just screw and unscrew every screw, and combination of screws, on the bow until you get lucky. Surely it has to be more organized than that given the number of folks that seem to be using this method.

Most of the other tuning methods can describe with a diagram the various arrow groups, impacts or tears that you can encounter and suggest a recommendation for correction. Is this possible with group tuning? 

Thanks

sawdust2


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## bklee (Jan 9, 2010)

sawdust2 said:


> In the interest of learning,which this thread is about, could someone show some diagrams of "group" tuning groups and the appropriate corrections to try on which part of the bow.
> 
> Right now it sounds like you just screw and unscrew every screw, and combination of screws, on the bow until you get lucky. Surely it has to be more organized than that given the number of folks that seem to be using this method.
> 
> ...


+1

Also how do you group tune? Is this different than walk back?


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## adam Guggisberg (Jan 28, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> How about a controversial post to go with your "controversial thread" :wink:
> 
> Walk Back Tuning is a waste of time.....
> 
> ...


I like the way you talk! 

The ONLY tuning method that personally use is Paper tuning.. I can hit stuff too! ha ha ha 

-Adam


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## NockOn (Feb 24, 2003)

Paper tuning I don't bother...

Group tuning is very dependent on how well you can shoot and how small your groups are.

Around here we eye ball the centre shot, set the nock height to about 1/8" high. We then do a walk back tune to fine tune the center shot. 

I've read on here that walk back is a waste of time but I have yet to read why it is. Maybe somebody can explain?

I know for shooting FITA if your center shot is done wrong, your sight will have to be adjusted left or right as you change your distances. Walk back tuning has always work great for me and many that I shoot with.

But at the end of the day, most would be better working on their shot execution then worrying about the right or wrong way to set a bow up.

Just my 2 cents :tongue:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

NockOn said:


> Paper tuning I don't bother...
> 
> Group tuning is very dependent on how well you can shoot and how small your groups are.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure my post states why I and many others think it's a waste of time.....

If you KNOW your center shot on your bow should be around say 3/4" starting there isn't going to make you need to move your rest more then a tick in either direction....group tuning sets the bow up to YOU and makes it more forgiving. 

Those that want to know how to group tune....there are a bunch of explanations on how to do it on here. 

Basically your moving your rest and nocking point in the opposite direction of your arrow impacts when you make an adjustment. But you have to know what your looking at :wink:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

sawdust2 said:


> In the interest of learning,which this thread is about, could someone show some diagrams of "group" tuning groups and the appropriate corrections to try on which part of the bow.
> 
> Right now it sounds like you just screw and unscrew every screw, and combination of screws, on the bow until you get lucky. Surely it has to be more organized than that given the number of folks that seem to be using this method.
> 
> ...


Its not as half-baked as it appears. 

Its about the process of elimination much like a race car is tweaked one way or another until the ideal setup is found. In finding out what doesn't work you learn what does. There's very little luck involved.

Lets say you shoot 8" circular groups at 80 yards shooting 60 pounds. We want to find the ideal point where the arrow spine, your draw length, and the bow's force draw curve all match as best as humanly possible. To start we could turn the poundage up 4# on the bow and reshoot...ending with groups that are 8" tall by 10" wide. What have you learned? You learned that increasing the poundage from its starting point is detrimental to group size. It would only be smart, not lucky, to decrease the poundage back to its starting point. 

But wait, aren't we trying to find the best spot? Lets take 4# off of the starting point and shoot some more groups. Lets say for example that it does improve the group to a 6.5" group average. We've learned that taking 4# off is better than our starting poundage....or, to put it better, that somewhere less than 60 pounds is better for arrow groups. 

Lets take 2 more pounds off and shoot at 54#. In our example the 54# groups are a little over 7" on average. We've learned that 56# is better than 54 pounds so the right way to go is greater than 56 pounds....or more precisely - 56>ideal<60. Keep fiddling with it and get incrementally smaller "test" variables until you find the spot that works the best.

You can do this with any of the tuning variables (poundage, spines, point weights, nock height, center shot, etc.) until you can't possible get better results than what you're physically capable of. 

Of course we'd all like to just pull a bow out of a box and have it luckily end up at that same spot. :wink:

I think the better your form and hold the less important that your bow be tuned. A good example would be Terry Ragsdale pounding out 300s with an untuned bow. All his bow has to do is repeat itself...which is easily achieved with a simple machine...for him to pound the middle. That's where his sight always is so what other result could we have expected. That's the simplest form of archery that there is...pull back, hold in the middle, release, score an X. How many of us can do that 30, 60, 90, 112, or 144 times in a row that aren't named Ragsdale, Beauboff, Broadwater, Wild, Despart, etc...

I know my sight hardly ever rests in the middle like its at home. 

Once upon a time I was a good shooter, but I could beat better shooters. There was no explanation for it other than my bow hit where I was looking regardless of what I did. I have good form, but not great and screw up the execution more often than I care to admit, but by tuning the bow I could achieve better results than I deserve. Part of it is still do to form and trust, and part of it is putting a little english on the arrow, but I don't know how an apparent blueberry or tomato can suddenly turn into the highest scoring ring other than tuning the bow to develope some sort of "foregiveness" to the individual archer. 

When I don't tune the bow to me and its potential, I get beat by archers I consider myself to be better than and end up with a worse score than I feel I deserve, those ones where the shot feels good and the sight picture indicates that the higher scoring ring should have been the result, but it often ends up in the next lower ring.

Its not luck, its squeezing every bit of precision out of your equipment that you can. 

Sawdust, if you look on John Dudley's sight and look for an article "Conquering the HILL" or something like that I think he has diagrams in it, otherwise I don't know of any that show it. The reason that you don't see many charts, algorithms, or diagrams is that you're starting with a relatively well TUNED BOW to start, you're just trying to make it better. FWIW I consider most horizontal grouping variations to be centershot/spine related and horizontal variations to be nock/rest/nock travel related.


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*Thanks Bobmuley*

Group tuning makes more sense after your examination. It also seems that you can spend as little or as much time as you like in trying to obtain the best group possible. Ideally you would retest all previous conditions as you "complete" each new test since your new setting could effect your previous results. This could take forever. However, would it be fair to say that everyone has their few favorites that they rely on?

The comments about shooting form also bring things into prescriptive. I would have a tough time evaluating my bow setup at 80 yds. as there would be too much of me involved in the group, but a good shooter would probably be seeing the magnified effect of their tuning changes. In some defense of paper tuning, I feel that, for me anyway, the initial arrow launch is best done up close and given the same degree of effort you describe for group tuning it would yield good results. Then maybe walkback tuning to confirm the rest settings. 

Now, after completing group tuning has anyone shot through paper? Just a thought as it would only seem logical that good results at 80 yds. would only be possible with a good launch.

Thanks 

sawdust2


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Doesn't take forever.....one afternoon trip to the range and knock it out


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## va MTN MAN (Jan 24, 2003)

sawdust2 said:


> Group tuning makes more sense after your examination. It also seems that you can spend as little or as much time as you like in trying to obtain the best group possible. Ideally you would retest all previous conditions as you "complete" each new test since your new setting could effect your previous results. This could take forever. However, would it be fair to say that everyone has their few favorites that they rely on?
> 
> The comments about shooting form also bring things into prescriptive. I would have a tough time evaluating my bow setup at 80 yds. as there would be too much of me involved in the group, but a good shooter would probably be seeing the magnified effect of their tuning changes. In some defense of paper tuning, I feel that, for me anyway, the initial arrow launch is best done up close and given the same degree of effort you describe for group tuning it would yield good results. Then maybe walkback tuning to confirm the rest settings.
> 
> ...



After group tuning my paper tears have always been very small if any, less than a 1/2 inch and never a down tear usally slightly high and to the left for a right hander


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

va MTN MAN said:


> After group tuning my paper tears have always been very small if any, less than a 1/2 inch and never a down tear usally slightly high and to the left for a right hander


And that's why I start with a nock high left tear. :wink:

Start there and most of the time all your going to have to do when group tuning is move your rest in or out a click or two.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

sawdust2 said:


> Group tuning makes more sense after your examination. It also seems that you can spend as little or as much time as you like in trying to obtain the best group possible. Ideally you would retest all previous conditions as you "complete" each new test since your new setting could effect your previous results. This could take forever. However, would it be fair to say that everyone has their few favorites that they rely on?
> 
> The comments about shooting form also bring things into prescriptive. I would have a tough time evaluating my bow setup at 80 yds. as there would be too much of me involved in the group, but a good shooter would probably be seeing the magnified effect of their tuning changes. In some defense of paper tuning, I feel that, for me anyway, the initial arrow launch is best done up close and given the same degree of effort you describe for group tuning it would yield good results. Then maybe walkback tuning to confirm the rest settings.
> 
> ...


I really think a lot of people spend WAY too much timing worrying about things they shouldn't be stressing about or spending to much time working on things that they shouldn't be spending that much time on 

When your group tuning your not spending a ton of timing testing and retesting and then making changes and trying something else and then trying what you did before and then trying something else......

Paper tune your bow....get a nock high left tear. Get marks at a few yardages. Then get to shooting at 40-80yds for your group tuning....the longest distance you feel you can pretty much keep them all in the dot or at least still group well at. I do it at 60yds.

Now what I do is shoot ALL of my arrows and turn my nocks to make sure all my arrows are actually grouping together. :wink: Then start paying attention to my groups. Am I seeing a pattern or having my "OK" shots miss or move from the group in any direction. You will usually see a pattern left or right. If the pattern is left....move your rest one click to the right. If it's right move the rest to the left. If you actually start with the paper tear high left your not going to have to move it in one direction more then a click or two on a Tuner in one direction. PERIOD.....going the wrong direction will also be pretty obvious at 60yds as far as your groups are concerned.

You also read your groups for vertical adjustments....now also since you started with the high left tear. Unless you started with TOO high of a tear there is a 99% chance your not going to need to adjust your nocking point or rest for this. But if your group spread is high you move your rest down. If it's low your going to need to raise your nocking point.

Now your not looking for your ENTIRE group to be left, right, high or low....your looking at the ones that don't "fit" with the rest of the group. Or the "bubble" in your group. It doesn't take but about 1/2 hour at most to do once you've got your bow paper tuned and a decent mark....once you start moving things DO NOT MOVE YOUR SIGHT.

yes your form plays apart in how good you can do this....that's why you have to know how good you can shoot and actually group. If your shooting them out by the pro line on a regular basis.....your not going to be able to group tune at 60 yds or farther. 

again as I have stated and many others have....there is NO NEED to paper tune and then "confirm" what you just did with a Walk Back tune....it is a WASTE OF TIME. The only way your arrows are going to move is if your doing something wrong....just shoot the thing at more distances. If the center of your group moves as you move back your bow is either not really SIGHTED in or your 2nd or 3rd axis is off....not your center shot.

Group tuning makes your bow more forgiving to you.....You already knew your center shot was right....remember you just shot through paper to prove it to yourself previously. :wink:

I would much rather spend my time actually shooting a round and or working on my shot not tuning :wink: If MOST people spent the time shooting and working on their shot as they did worrying about the tune of their bow or tinkering with this and that their scores and shooting would be much better.


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*Thanks Brown Hornet*

That is the best and most rational description of group tuning I have had to date. I now consider it worth a try. In fact I'm rather anxious to get out to the range.

Regards
sawdust2


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## New River (Oct 29, 2007)

*group tuning*

I've always thought, the better you shoot the better you can tune For this one reason I believe group tuning can, at the very least, be very difficult and maybe a little decieving. I believe it was Frank Pearson who used to advocate tiller tuning. Shoot a group and change the tiller. After repeating this on the upper and lower limb you chose the best group and go back to that setting. I always found that frustrating because of my inability to shoot consistent groups. At times I can shoot nice groups at 40 yards and the next group from 40 yards may blow up. Is it the bow set up or me? I have found the most consistant method of tuning for me was to put tape horizontally on the target and shoot until I felt I had a consistent line which indicated the nocking point was correct. Then the tape is placed vertically on the target to adjust the center shot. Old school?


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Paper tuning is step #1. It really does nothing more than help you achieve maximum arrow flight/velocity efficiency. Flopping arrows lose velocity quickly and make BHs do funny things so paper tune to cure those problems before you move forward. 3'; 5-7 yards and 10-12 yards beginning with a SLIGHT high/left (for RH archer) at 3' and bullet hole at the next two distances provides you with visual proof of good, efficient arrow flight. This will always help you get a close spine match in your system as well as good arrow flight. Grip torque and "punching" will also show up immediately in paper tuning.

You can shoot super tight groups with poorly flying arrows so paper tuning doesn't necessarily ensure good groups. Minor adjustments when group tuning will almost always yield a slight high/left tear at that 3" distance though.

Walk back or French tuning is useful to be sure your arrows are tracking online at all distances.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

I use it as a good starting point, and to show other shooters what hand torque will do to arrow flight.


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## CRAZYRICK1 (Dec 26, 2009)

BOWGOD said:


> Ok so how many of you field shooters actually "paper tune" your bows?
> 
> Years ago I was big into paper tuning, and shot every bow I set up through paper. But over the years I leaned more toward walkback tuning, and creep tuning as my methods of choice. In time the paper rack completely disapeared as I came to view it as worthless, and just taking up space.
> But over the last 2 years I have heard the word paper out of more than 1 mouth, so I would like to hear everyone's opinion on paper tuning. Do you use it exclusively, do you paper tune along with other tuning methods, do you just use other methods, and skip paper all together?
> ...


I use paper as a starting point, then walkback to 80 yards. I seem to have a lot of play with the side to side movement of my rest, but the walkback really dials me in good


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsw said:


> Paper tuning is step #1. It really does nothing more than help you achieve maximum arrow flight/velocity efficiency. Flopping arrows lose velocity quickly and make BHs do funny things so paper tune to cure those problems before you move forward. 3'; 5-7 yards and 10-12 yards beginning with a SLIGHT high/left (for RH archer) at 3' and bullet hole at the next two distances provides you with visual proof of good, efficient arrow flight. This will always help you get a close spine match in your system as well as good arrow flight. Grip torque and "punching" will also show up immediately in paper tuning.
> 
> You can shoot super tight groups with poorly flying arrows so paper tuning doesn't necessarily ensure good groups. Minor adjustments when group tuning will almost always yield a slight high/left tear at that 3" distance though.
> 
> Walk back or French tuning is useful to be sure your arrows are tracking online at all distances.


I'm gonna do that for my outdoor setup here shortly when the snow clears off my range. 

I'm not gonna do it for any other reason except for you saying it will work.


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*To Your Original Question*

What are the benefits of paper tuning, if any?

I too have improved my hold by being able to see the difference of the paper tears in relation to the different hand positions. I doubt that these subtle variations can be identified by anything other than close up shooting. 

Another thing I found has to do with came lean. I'm shooting a PSE Moneymaker that is a split limb with an adjustment bolt on each limb. I had a small persistent tear and just a little cam lean which I was able to dial out and the tear went away. Eyeballing cam lean is one thing but being able to see the results of the corrections is even better and again is best done close up. I know most bows don't have this type of adjustment and I wish they did as I was a bit surprised at how much effect a quarter turn on a given bolt effected the tear.

Good luck.

sawdust2


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

*Ya killin me!!!*

I wasnt gonna post on this subject but here goes

Walk back tuning a waste of time???? Sounds like a few people need to put the pipe down step away from the keyboard and get some air or actuall range time!!:wink:

IMO walkback tuning has proved to be very effective!!!!

I can group tune the hell out of some arrows at 80yds..... go up to 20 and they are not in the middle...:mg: And it NOT my 3rd axis!

Now my group tuning may go more indepth due to I start at 10ft with my marker arrow and go as far back as 60 yds

walk back tuning allows you to see at what distance your arrows are starting to fall to the left or right so you get it right there then continue back.... It is a time consuming procudre....

So to start my tuning process I paper tune for nock height purposes ONLY... then I take a clean piece of cardboard with a Level vertical line on it( Kept cutting a string)with a dot at the top of it set my sight to 35yds and go to 10ft and adjust my sight until it hits the line then I go back to 20 shoot a GOOD shot then to 30 then to 40(never moving the sight) I then see the left or right trend and adjust the rest for it and then all the way back to 10ft and start the process over again until I get it right back to 50 yds usually and it dead on out to 90m ALWAYS!!!

IMO "group tuning" is the *lazy *way out... Will group tuning work for you...mabey

Will walk back tuning work for you YES!!! Take it to the bank... I got silver riding on it!!:wink:

And another monkey wrench in the mix I will be bare shafting my rig out to 80 this year.... Have fun with that one:darkbeer:

But to the orginal question I DO paper tune... but for vertical purposes only


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> I wasnt gonna post on this subject but here goes
> 
> Walk back tuning a waste of time???? Sounds like a few people need to put the pipe down step away from the keyboard and get some air or actuall range time!!:wink:
> 
> ...


X-y you're a way better shooter than me and I'll flat come right out and say it, but walk back tuning is a waste of time period...

If your sight allows your arrow to hit the identical spot you're aiming at 20 yds, how could 30 possibly be off? If line of sight and arrow travel path are the same at 1 distance, how could they possibly be different at another? Magic fairies pushing your arrow left or right at 20.1 yds??? The only way it could happen is if your arrows are flying in a horizontal ARC...if so, you've got more issues than centershot...


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I just love it when two absolutes disagree. Kinda like our political parties.

BOWgOD has veto power on this one since it's his thread.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> The only way it could happen is if your arrows are flying in a horizontal ARC...


You better save some of those bent ACC arrows and hope they have a horizontal arc when you shoot the 20 yarder on my course. The name of that lane is: "Thru The Pines" :mg:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> I just love it when two absolutes disagree. Kinda like our political parties.
> 
> BOWgOD has veto power on this one since it's his thread.


I just wish WV Hasbeen was still around...at least then I would have a good shooter on my side...the laws of physics don't seem to be enough to convince people around here...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> I just wish WV Hasbeen was still around...at least then I would have a good shooter on my side...*the laws of physics as interpreted by Sarge don't seem to be enough to convince people around here*...


Corrected it for you. 

BTW: You suck - have fun entertaining your in-laws this weekend while the rest of us are SHOOTING.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Careful quoting the laws of physics Pat, especially when they don't agree with what you're spewing here. Next time we shoot together I'll show you how it works. I can't get a picture drawn that accurately depicts what I want to show...yet....I'm working on one.

Walk back tuning DOES work and isn't a waste of time.

Before you get mad....look at your bow and the relation of the arrow, string, and your scope...is the dot/fiber centered behind the string when you align everything else? On your Martin with shoot through it should be and in that case you should be done. Now I'm not saying that walk back tuning is the only solution...there is one that is much simpler.....but you have to ensure that the arrow is leaving in a path that is EXACTLY parallel to the riser of your bow or you're going to see the arrows point of impact move either left to right or right to left as you move back.



psargeant said:


> I just wish WV Hasbeen was still around...at least then I would have a good shooter on my side...the laws of physics don't seem to be enough to convince people around here...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Ron...

I've already seen all the drawings your trying to come up with and debated this to death with Nuts and Bolts...I'll have to see if I can find that thread...

Though I doubt even if I do find it that either of our minds are going to change...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Found it...This was a heck of debate a couple years ago...It was dado and N+B...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=5304932&highlight=walk+back#post5304932


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Didn't say a thing about what others have posted...don't care really actually. You're the one claiming that "simple Physics isn't enough for some people" and I'm just saying not to claim that when in fact simple math and geometry, very liberally applied as physics problem, explain it quite easily.

If the arrow is coming off the bow anyway but perfectly parallel to the plane that makes up the center of the riser back through the string then the further back you go the further left, or right, the arrow will go. If that angle is as miniscule as 2.5 degrees, roughly 0.003" measured from the arrow to the front and to back of the riser and you set your scope/site to be dead on at 20 yards then you'll have a left/right miss, depending which way the angle is with respect to the riser, by roughly 4" at 80 yards. You're dealing with very small angles which compounded out to 80 yards make a really big difference...I still say if we are face to face I can win ya over.....after all....it's just PHYSICS!!

It's all good in the end though buddy.......hope to shoot with you someplace this summer.



psargeant said:


> Found it...This was a heck of debate a couple years ago...It was dado and N+B...
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=5304932&highlight=walk+back#post5304932


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Ron Meadows said:


> Didn't say a thing about what others have posted...don't care really actually. You're the one claiming that "simple Physics isn't enough for some people" and I'm just saying not to claim that when in fact simple math and geometry, very liberally applied as physics, explain it quite easily.
> 
> If the arrow is coming off the bow anyway but perfectly parallel to the line that makes up the center of the riser than the further back you go the further left, or right, the arrow will go. If that angle is as much as 2.5 degrees, roughly 0.003" from the front to back of the riser and you set your scope/site to be dead on at 20 yards then you'll have a left/right miss, depending which way the angle is with respect to the riser, you'll miss by roughly 4" at 80 yards. You're dealing with very small angles which compounded out to 80 yards make a really big difference...I still say if we are face to face I can win ya over.....after all....it's just PHYSICS!!
> 
> It's all good in the end


Like I said Ron...We're just going to have to agree to disagree......you can argue and present your side all you want, it I still say physics make what you are stating impossible unless somehow the arrow either arcs horizontally, or crosses your line of sight...


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## AllenRead (Jan 12, 2004)

FS560 said:


> .... I have a tool that will show me what the nock path is doing in the vertical plane. ...


Hi Jim,

What tool is that? 

Thanks,
Allen


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## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

Walk back tuning is crap. I tried this nonsense last year, and here were my results:

10 yards - arrows hitting vertical line, every shaft pointing to the left
20 yards - arrows hitting vertical line, every shaft pointing to the right
30 yards - arrows hitting vertical line, every shaft pointing to the left
40 yards - arrows hitting vertical line, every shaft pointing to the right

This garbage continued out to 80 yards. The arrows were hitting the EXACT same vertical line out to 80 yards, but at every 10 yard jump, they were sticking in the target in a different direction. I could plainly see how badly they were fishtailing, yet they still impacted the same line. 

On the other hand, I've seen bows that shoot bullet holes through paper, and even the top shooters (guys that shoot 550+ field rounds) who owned these bows couldn't hold groups at the longer distances. A perfect tear doesn't mean anything for good down-range accuracy...these good shooters actually held much better groups when the tear was a little high and offset slightly to one side.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I was thinking about this last night and I'll see your controversial post and raise you one.

I have a Morrell Outdoor Range bag that I shoot at home. The 3D bow that I used last year would shoot a clean bullet hole through paper from 7 feet to 20 yds. When I would shoot at 20 yds outside, I would center the dot on the bag. When I moved to 50, it would hit left side dot. Still inside but to the left half of the dot. It would shoot great groups at every distance I shot it at.

So over the winter as I transitioned from one 3D bow to another I thought I would put my sight on my leveler and just double check everything. Put my level against my 1st axis and what do you know?? It's slightly out of level, bubble left meaning that as I set my sights to longer distances, the pin would actually move to the right as well as down.

Now some of you would have told me that I needed to walkback tune my bow and move my rest to compensate for the the fact that the longer distances were left of my aiming point. The reality was that my 1st axis wasn't set correctly.

So my point is, how many people that walkback tune are setting the bow to compensate for a misaligned sight??

Since we're being controversial and all.:secret:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> I was thinking about this last night and I'll see your controversial post and raise you one.
> 
> I have a Morrell Outdoor Range bag that I shoot at home. The 3D bow that I used last year would shoot a clean bullet hole through paper from 7 feet to 20 yds. When I would shoot at 20 yds outside, I would center the dot on the bag. When I moved to 50, it would hit left side dot. Still inside but to the left half of the dot. It would shoot great groups at every distance I shot it at.
> 
> ...


All of them...Walkback tuning is Bunk pure and simple...


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> All of them...Walkback tuning is Bunk pure and simple...


Cmon sarge back of the soap box cause you've yet to prove how walkback tuning dosent work(other than in pats world where you teach the physics).... I spend alot of time tuning my bow and firmly believe in every step in my process.... 

Which includes SIGHT LEVELING!!

I know for a 100% fact my rig is strait yet when I zeroed my rig in up close jumped back to 80 it wasnt even close.... Threw a so called usless WB tune on it and clean hitting the spot from bunny to the 80...

So other than you being incapable of doing this simple method your logic is not very logical at all


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> All of them...Walkback tuning is Bunk pure and simple...





X Hunter said:


> Cmon sarge back of the soap box cause you've yet to prove how walkback tuning dosent work(other than in pats world where you teach the physics).... I spend alot of time tuning my bow and firmly believe in every step in my process....
> 
> Which includes SIGHT LEVELING!!
> 
> ...


OK, time to settle this between you two the "correct" way - :darkbeer: drinking contest.


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## LoneEagle0607 (Jan 15, 2008)

*enough beer?*



pragmatic_lee said:


> OK, time to settle this between you two the "correct" way - :darkbeer: drinking contest.


Is there enough beer around for such a contest?


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> Cmon sarge back of the soap box cause you've yet to prove how walkback tuning dosent work(other than in pats world where you teach the physics).... I spend alot of time tuning my bow and firmly believe in every step in my process....
> 
> Which includes SIGHT LEVELING!!
> 
> ...


Your also yet to prove that an arrow can arc horizontally. Unless you prove to me that can happen, I say bunk...

Like I told Ron...we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one...

I say had you sighted in and set your windage at 80 and not bothered with the WB tune you would have gotten the same results...Once your line of sight and arrow are hitting dead nuts at 1 distance there are only 2 ways that can change...

1) Arrow is crossing your line of sight in a horizontal plane. Since the string is the beginning of your line of sight, not likely...
2) Arrow arcs horizontally. Once again without wind or some other factor...not likely...

I premised this with an admission that you're a way better shot than me...but there are more than a few who are better shots than you that share my viewpoint...(Check the other thread I linked to...WVhasbeen coached Jesse when he was a kid...)

BTW- It isn't about sight leveling either... All the WB in the world won't compensate for a mis-leveled sight...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

LoneEagle0607 said:


> Is there enough beer around for such a contest?


:nono: We'd have to move to something a bit harder for that...


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

psargeant said:


> :nono: We'd have to move to something a bit harder for that...


Segways at 20yds? :noidea:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

IGluIt4U said:


> Segways at 20yds? :noidea:


Only if there's drinking involved:darkbeer:...and no gravel:nono:...


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Ok, let me try to understand this argument..... 

Hypothetically speaking, my centershot is 1/4" out from where it should be.. all I have to do is resight my bow at 80 and the arrows will hit true from there to 20'????

That seems highly unlikely to me... but I'll experiment a bit this weekend to see how that works out.. :nod: :darkbeer:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

psargeant said:


> Only if there's drinking involved:darkbeer:...and no gravel:nono:...


Seems fair... :thumb:  :wink:


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## pyroman_27 (Feb 4, 2003)

I start with a paper tune to get in the general area. Then I use a bare shaft, a fletched arrow and a fletched arrow with a broadhead tuning the groups back to 50 yds. I haven't had a problem yet. Just shoot the broadhead first so you don't slice up your other arrows.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

According to their theory, that's the case sticky.....don't make no sense but I'm tired of arguing...if he wishes to continue throwing points away then who am I to argue. It's really easy to explain what is happening but since it's contrary to what he believes he doesn't even want to consider it. Having said that, there are multiple other ways to skin this cat and end up at the same place and that is the arrow leaving the bow exactly parallel to the riser. The easiest of these other methods is a tool called the Rest Assured arrow rest. I don't remember the gentleman that was selling it but the concept he explained was what got me to thinking and ultimately doing the math/physics to figure out what is going on and why walk back tuning DOES work. There is no horizontal arrow travel or whatever Pat insists on quoting, I believe it was originally from WVHasBeen in a thread a couple years ago. What you have is the arrow leaving at a trajectory that isn't parallel to the bow and it off to one side by a small amount, a degree or 2. You can still get a bullet hole through paper, but your point of impact will continue to move left/right the further back from the target that you shoot. The arrow is a dumb animal and continues to follow on the path that it was initially pointed on......it's just not headed exactly toward the target until you get your rest perfectly aligned to the direction you're wanting it to go. 



IGluIt4U said:


> Ok, let me try to understand this argument.....
> 
> Hypothetically speaking, my centershot is 1/4" out from where it should be.. all I have to do is resight my bow at 80 and the arrows will hit true from there to 20'????
> 
> That seems highly unlikely to me... but I'll experiment a bit this weekend to see how that works out.. :nod: :darkbeer:


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## tabarch (Sep 20, 2006)

pragmatic_lee said:


> OK, time to settle this between you two the "correct" way - :darkbeer: drinking contest.


I will put my $$$ on X-HUNTER, I 'v seen him practice and unlike archery where he has dropped a point here and there I have never seen him drop a:darkbeer:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Ron Meadows said:


> According to their theory, that's the case sticky.....don't make no sense but I'm tired of arguing...if he wishes to continue throwing points away then who am I to argue. It's really easy to explain what is happening but since it's contrary to what he believes he doesn't even want to consider it. Having said that, there are multiple other ways to skin this cat and end up at the same place and that is the arrow leaving the bow exactly parallel to the riser. The easiest of these other methods is a tool called the Rest Assured arrow rest. I don't remember the gentleman that was selling it but the concept he explained was what got me to thinking and ultimately doing the math/physics to figure out what is going on and why walk back tuning DOES work. There is no horizontal arrow travel or whatever Pat insists on quoting, I believe it was originally from WVHasBeen in a thread a couple years ago. What you have is the arrow leaving at a trajectory that isn't parallel to the bow and it off to one side by a small amount, a degree or 2. You can still get a bullet hole through paper, but your point of impact will continue to move left/right the further back from the target that you shoot. The arrow is a dumb animal and continues to follow on the path that it was initially pointed on......it's just not headed exactly toward the target until you get your rest perfectly aligned to the direction you're wanting it to go.


For the sake of education, wouldn't the SAME information be displayed back to the shooter via papertuning??

If the arrow isn't leaving the bow parallel to the riser, the tear would be nock right/left instead of a bullet hole if the paper is perpendicular to the bow. 

So in theory, BOTH methods illustrate the SAME information.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

If you take the time to get a "perfect" bullet hole then yes you should, but I'm betting that more times than not folks just get close and then head to the range. Like I said there are multiple ways to do it and I think that paper tuning at multiple distances is one way that would work equally well. 



Spoon13 said:


> For the sake of education, wouldn't the SAME information be displayed back to the shooter via papertuning??
> 
> If the arrow isn't leaving the bow parallel to the riser, the tear would be nock right/left instead of a bullet hole if the paper is perpendicular to the bow.
> 
> So in theory, BOTH methods illustrate the SAME information.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

psargeant said:


> Your also yet to prove that an arrow can arc horizontally. Unless you prove to me that can happen, I say bunk...
> .


I don't think its so much an arc as much as it is finding the divergence of the two paths (sight and arrow).


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Ron Meadows said:


> If you take the time to get a "perfect" bullet hole then yes you should, but I'm betting that more times than not folks just get close and then head to the range. Like I said there are multiple ways to do it and I think that paper tuning at multiple distances is one way that would work equally well.



To me there is no point in doing it if your not gonna do it right. I'm sure I have high expectations of myself and my scores. Doing something "kinda" right isn't gonna get me where I want to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> Your also yet to prove that an arrow can arc horizontally. Unless you prove to me that can happen, I say bunk...
> 
> Like I told Ron...we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one...
> 
> ...


Me being a better shot than you has nothing to do with the fact that you and WVhasbeen are dead wrong on this one.... 

Where are you getting a horizonal arc from??? Must be some more sargics!!

You have yet to make a valid point on how it is not right other than WVHasbeen told you it wont work and to me that means jack s#$t!! I could care less who he worked with becuase we all know jesse would be the shot he is without the help of the great WVhasbeen!! Why dont you try actually going to the range and try some of this for yourself and i bet you would see how right I am on this one(actually I wont because you dont want to)...

I dont agree to disagree when I KNOW im right 


So i'll take my leave on this one and when your tired of throwing points and wasting days "group tuning" i'll be more than happy to help you out...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> I don't think its so much an arc as much as it is finding the divergence of the two paths (sight and arrow).


Couldn't you just adjust your windage to get the paths the same?

I think so...The only way those 2 paths can diverge once the arrow is stablilized would be a horizontal Arc, or the arrow crossing the line of sight. i just don't see how that could happen...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> Me being a better shot than you has nothing to do with the fact that you and WVhasbeen are dead wrong on this one....
> 
> Where are you getting a horizonal arc from??? Must be some more sargics!!
> 
> ...


You know, I've never made this personal Brad...I'm a little disappointed you have to go there...

I know you believe in it and that's fine. I'm not going to change your mind, any more than you're going to change mine... I have tried it, tried it before you were born as a matter of fact...I've found time and again that it just doesn't work...Sorry...

I only use hasbeen to illustrate the point that I'm not the only one who thinks this way...I just happen to be the only one arguing on this thread...go read the thread I linked to earlier rather than just arguing for argument's sake...

I'm done with it now...


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

psargeant said:


> Couldn't you just adjust your windage to get the paths the same?


Pretty tough to do since the nock travels laterally from full draw to brace. Now if you didn't have any cam lean, a completely balanced (L/R like a true shoot through system) cam and limb system, a riser that can't be torqued, and no cable guard I'm sure you could just line the paths up. Most of us don't.


Spoon13 said:


> To me there is no point in doing it if your not gonna do it right.


That's one of the reason's I've done less and less paper tuning. I'm unable to tell a 0.421"x0.429" hole from a 0.429"x0.421" hole. I've moved my rest 0.008" and seen downrange changes because of it.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Exactly Bob. You're only dealing with a few thousandths of an inch, 2 to be exact, that will cause a left/right impact at 80 yards of 4" relative to your 20 yard mark. What most are missing is that if the arrow is launched in a path that isn't parallel to the power stoke of the bow then it's headed either left/right from the time it leaves the bow.....that's what makes you able to set the site at 20 yards and then still be off at 80 yards......the arrow is off from the moment it leaves the bow...no mystical arrow flight at all!!



Bobmuley said:


> Pretty tough to do since the nock travels laterally from full draw to brace. Now if you didn't have any cam lean, a completely balanced (L/R like a true shoot through system) cam and limb system, a riser that can't be torqued, and no cable guard I'm sure you could just line the paths up. Most of us don't.
> That's one of the reason's I've done less and less paper tuning. I'm unable to tell a 0.421"x0.429" hole from a 0.429"x0.421" hole. I've moved my rest 0.008" and seen downrange changes because of it.


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

After the arrow leaves the bow and the fletching straightens it out gravity takes over and it can only go straight down. It can not arch to the left on right. :embara:


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## Rock Steady (Dec 26, 2009)

I am at home sick and have read through this entire thread, wow.

If I feel up to it I will try and draw a few pictures in CAD that may help explain the issues as I see them, and I could be completely off the mark so don't be afraid to tell me.

First thing is I think the terminology is wrong when you say Horizontal Arc, I think Horizontal Drift Left or Right would be a more accurate description of what is happening to your arrows once they leave the string. Although the center mass of the arrow is actually travelling in a straight line not drifting so that is still not the best terminology. 



> After the arrow leaves the bow and the fletching straightens it out


This is a misconception, the direction of thrust for the mass of the arrow has not changed the flights hold an arrow straight but the arrow still wants to travel left or right. I am not sure if it is a good analogy but a twin engine airliner with only one engine can still fly straight but the thrust wants to push it left or right, its the rudder etc that make it appear to be flying in a straight line. 

If the thrust applied to your arrow is not perfectly aligned with the center mass point (CMP), the center of the nock and the center of the field point / BH (ie: perfectly along the entire longitudinal center axis of the arrow) then the arrow will always to drift either left or right. This actually applies to vertical as well as horizontal and to all the degrees in-between.

Michael


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> You know, I've never made this personal Brad...I'm a little disappointed you have to go there...
> 
> Personal??? Im not making it personal you're just wrong... So nothing personal about it
> 
> ...


...


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

bowfisher said:


> After the arrow leaves the bow and the fletching straightens it out gravity takes over and it can only go straight down. It can not arch to the left on right. :embara:


No, but it can leave the bow on a trajectory that is not parallel to the riser, therefore continuing on a course that will take it left, or right, depending on the rest position, and the farther you are from the target, the more 'drift' the arrow will have in that direction.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

IGluIt4U said:


> No, but it can leave the bow on a trajectory that is not parallel to the riser, therefore continuing on a course that will take it left, or right, depending on the rest position, and the farther you are from the target, the more 'drift' the arrow will have in that direction.


No your wrong!!:tongue: But not really


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## Mathew28 (Jan 4, 2010)

I done the walkback. And ive shot the paper and got it close, then went to shoot. Done OK. But when i took the time to make perfect bullet holes on paper and then LISTENED to X HUNTER, i then shot 5 spot and went from shooting the 290's--- Now with X Hunters help last sunday i shot a 300/58Xs. I started shooting bows last september. So if im now shooting high 50s Xs. That tells me that X Hunter and Ron knows their [email protected]!t


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