# Overbowed? Draw Length, how do you know?



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

As this came up in the Axle to Axle thread, and Field 14 had a great post on the subject I figured it would be a good resource to have around.

So what is your weight and draw and how did you arrive at it?


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## Woody69 (Feb 17, 2007)

Personally i think it depends on how many arrows you need to shoot !

If your in a hunting situation and you only need to make one shot, every once in a while (you might only take one shot all day) then i would say have as much as you can pull.

In FITA we are limited to 60# (which is what i shoot) but you still have to be able to shoot all 144 arrows with that 60#, so obviosly if you are getting really tired and finding it harder and harder to pull it back as the day goes on, then i would say you are over bowed.

How many arrows do YOU need to shoot ?

Do you still feel as good at the last arrow as you did at the first arrow ?

Do you feel like you could keep shooting after your last arrow, or are you saying to yourself thank heavens that's over, i'm stuffed ?

Woody


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## GATOR-EYE (Jun 30, 2006)

I am shooting 55 pounds. I didn't really have a process for setting that weight besides it doesn't wear me out .

My draw length has been set long and then short and everywhere inbetween intil I found a spot where it felt good and solid.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

I always try and buy bows that are 60 lbs max. I select a shaft that looks like it will spine out at around 55-60 lbs. I then take 2 turns out of each limb, and start shooting. Once my basic tuning is done, during group tuning, I vary my draw weight by 1/4 turn at a crack until I find where the arrows group best. Whatever draw weight that turns out to be is what I shoot.

I know I can comfortably handle about any 60 lb bow (though my s3 nitrous is pushing it in a long round like a FITA). I don't really ever shoot more than that (don't hunt) though If I did I would probably not push past 70...just no need for it with today's bows...


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

The peak weight really doesn't concern me other than measuring it for arrow selection. IMHO it is what 'holding weight' feels comfortable. I can tell very quickly if the weight at full draw will allow the pin to float on the dot and I don't have to fight it.

Returning to a 65% cam this past year caused me to lower my poundage from my usuall 55# to @ 50-51#. One of my goals in '08 is to get that poundage a little higher and recover some lost speed.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Off the subject about the DL and poundage, but I've attended several "company sponsored" seminars while on shooting staff...

Before they got into the subject of poundage and drawlength, they had each attendee write their current peak weight of the bow they shoot most often and also the Drawlength that they were shooting...We posted this on the board next to our names.

Then: they discussed the following:

In ALL of those seminars (for dealers and staff shooters)...the companies involved were TRYING TO TELL THE DEALERS...that "stocking" the bows at 70 pounds and 29" or 30" AMO was catering to only 1-2% of the ENTIRE archery population...with regard to PROPER FIT AND DRAWLENGTH!

They basically said they had statistics that indicated that the American archery shooters were...95% overdrawn by 1-3" and 95% overbowed by 5-15 pounds peak weight.

The next step was for the instructor to use 3 methods of determining correct drawlength and write these down next to the shooters' names.

It was appalling....I can't remember the exact number % that were 1-3" too LONG with their setting....but it was absolutely astonishing! Myself, I was set 1/2" SHORT...but I do remember that there was only ONE or TWO in ANY of the seminars that were NOT at least 1" too LONG. MOST were 1 1/2" to 2" TOO LONG with their drawlength setting.

Then they told it like it IS....that based upon their statistics, the 95% of the shooters in American REALLY should be shooting a Drawlength between 26 and 28" AMO...and then proceeded to calculate the % in the seminar that SHOULD BE within this range...uncanny how the seminar numbers matched what the statistics indicated...and how the seminar numbers ALSO reflected the stats that 95% are OVERDRAWN by 1-3"!

They then made the point to the dealers..."Why are you ordering and STOCKING bows in the shop that only fit 1-2% of the population...of course the dealers' replies were...."CUZ THAT IS WHAT THE PEOPLE BUY." The instructor then said, "Well the way to stop it is to PROPERLY FIT THE SHOOTER with the bow he SHOULD have." Of course we know it is a vicious circle...afterall, the "customer is always right." hahahaha...Yeah, right...NOT when it comes to proper fit...when 95% don't seem to know what they are doing!

They then reiterated the age old way of telling if you are overbowed or not....the ole sit in a chair, kick your legs out in front of you and OFF THE FLOOR, and then draw the bow to anchor....If you cannot draw the bow back without lowering the elbow, skying the bow or doing some fancy gyrations with the bowarm, drawing elbow, shoulders, waist...then you ARE OVERBOWED...and should crank it down until you can draw in the chair with feet off the ground!

Sure broke some hearts and egos!

field14


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Now, for you naysayers on the "overbowing" portion.

You claim that you do that same thing standing up as in a chair....OF COURSE YOU DO...you ARE overbowed standing up, and the idea of sitting down is to REDUCE THE POUNDAGE UNTIL YOU CAN DO IT SITTING DOWN WITHOUT ANY FOOT SUPPORT!

This method isn't something NEW...it has been around for YEARS.

If you cannot pull the bow without gyrating around standing up....it SHOULD be obvious that you need to do something..AND MOST OF THE TIME...it is NOT the technique...but IS the poundage.

Oftentimes, a full turn, maybe two off the poundage is all that is needed.

If you are sitting down sitting ERECT...not with your back against the chair, and your feet off the floor...then you can't use anything for support or "extra" pulling power.

So, you crank down the poundage until you can draw the bow without gyrating around, sitting erect, and with feet OFF THE FLOOR.

There are always "naysayers" that say...after one or two tries, "I did it and it doesn't make any difference...OBVIOUSLY...UNLESS you ARE overbowed!

If you are drawing your bow with your elbow against your waist, then gyrating your hips and/or skying the bow..YOU ARE OVERBOWED! 

Use of the method is one way of "proving it" to those NAYSAYERS...because most are HUNTERS...and realize that much of the time, they are sitting down in their stands when the "bruiser" comes along. They are cold, they haven't drawn their bow back in hours...and muscles are NOT warmed up. Once we do this exercise with them, they REALIZE FINALLY that if they are having trouble drawing the bow STANDING UP...then it will be next to impossible for them to draw the bow with bulky clothes, while they are cold, and in a very low sitting position....

We normally only have to back the bow off about 1 or two full turns, but sometimes more....

What generally happens is that they are able to draw the bow sitting down with back away from the back of the chair and their feet not on the floor. When they stand up to shoot..>PROBLEM SOLVED...and accuracy improves too. They are ALWAYS happy campers after this!

But it sure seems that those NEW to the game are the biggest DOUBTERS of ANYTHING that would indicate that they are overbowed or overdrawn...because afterall....
YOU JUST GOTTA HAVE 70 pound of kinetic energy to bring down a white-tail and to do that, you just GOTTA SHOOT A LONG DRAWLENGTH....

I'm done arguing it...this WORKS for getting people to lower their draw weight, and it sure has SAVED SOME SERIOUS INJURIES from being overbowed.

Frankly I couldn't care less about the naysayers, and I don't have to PROVE anything to you...you wouldn't listen anyways....

So go ahead and doubt to kingdom come...but if you get injured from a letdown or too much shooting, or some morning if you are sitting in the tree stand and "MR. BIG" comes by and you can't draw back your bow all bulked up like you are...then...>I TOLD YOU SO....hahahahah...YOUR LOSS, not mine.

field14


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

my draw weight is 45# I arrived at that because that is the most I'm comfortable after shooting for an extended period.

my draw length is 28.25" I arrived at that once I settled on a permanent anchor point.

It really wasn't all that hard. It is said by many a coach that these 2 areas cause the most problems. But it really is easy to fix.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

field14 said:


> Myself, I was set 1/2" SHORT.


field,
How did you/they determine your drawlength was too short? Wingspan? Some other method?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> field,
> How did you/they determine your drawlength was too short? Wingspan? Some other method?


They used THREE METHODS...and believe it or not, ALL THREE were within 1/2" of each other! WINGSPAN was among them. BUT with the other two methods, it takes a KNOWLEDGABLE person to measure it up..>NOT SOME FLUNKY that doesn't know what to look for! I might add that NONE of the 3-methods used involved DRAWING A BOW OF ANY TYPE...NONE of them.

I've always tended to shoot TOO SHORT for some reason, and it does get me into trouble...especially now that I have the intentional tremor...I CANNOT shoot too short without more severe "shakes" than I already have due to the medical condition...and too LONG...egads...that makes the "disaster" even worse.

Finding that "sweet spot" with this tremor is very difficult due to so many other intangibles...thus the "7-Year Slump"...I gotta find the best spot to hel compensate for the shaky arm and the site movement that cannot be stopped...because I am NOT A PUNCHER...and don't really know HOW to PUNCH a release...and I'm NOT going to start to try to learn PUNCHOMATIC technique now:wink::tongue:

field14


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## Woody69 (Feb 17, 2007)

I thought the correct technique for drawing back a bow was to use the muscles across the back of your shoulders ?

So if your only supossed to use the muscles across the back of your shoulders, how does it make any difference if your standing or sitting ??? 

Woody


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## Anear (Feb 15, 2005)

Woody69 said:


> So if your only supossed to use the muscles across the back of your shoulders, how does it make any difference if your standing or sitting ???


My point exactly. And I did try field14s method. Straight back on a stool with my feet off the ground. And how on Earth does your elbow get anywhere in the mix? ie it sounds more like poor technique than over bowed. If they were drawing the bow properly they could probably get away with said poundage.

If you can't pass the chair test, you have major issues. I just don't think that poundage is necessarily the main one (even if you have to drop said poundage to correct everything else). Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great way of limiting poundage in uncoached amateurs, but i think that it may prove misleading in the long run as to what poundage someone can actually shoot comfortably if they are doing it correctly.

I can pass this test with 65lb (no 70lb on hand in my draw length). 65lbs is too heavy for me to shoot well.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Woody69 said:


> I thought the correct technique for drawing back a bow was to use the muscles across the back of your shoulders ?
> 
> So if your only supossed to use the muscles across the back of your shoulders, how does it make any difference if your standing or sitting ???
> 
> Woody


Woody:

Like field14 says,
some folks on the practice range have a rather unusual
pre-draw "dance" they go through,
to get their bow past peak draw weight,
and into full draw.

I've seen the hold the bow riser 12-inches off the ground,
bent over at the waist,
wrist release attached to the string,
and then the hand and the sudden whip of the upper body
to try to get some momentum going with the wrist
at the bow shoulder,
and then the bow is aimed sky high,
and they also have the wrist release 8-inches away from their face
(just in case the release lets go)
and a loud grunt (sometimes yes...sometimes no)
and then the wrist release and hand,
drops down below the chin down to heart level
combined with the 3/4 twist of the upper body
to finally get past peak draw weight
and into the full draw position.

At this point,
you get the waggling of the head,
and the multiple open/close/open/close of the jaw
to find the facial anchor touch point.

String is touching the nose....(check)

Nock is back by the ear lobe....(double-check)

Index finger is completed stretched out and the trigger is practically under the fingernails....(triple check)

Bow arm elbow is bent 45 degrees
so the string can touch the nose tip....(quadrule check).




If a shooter is sitting in a chair,
shoes off the floor,
back of the shooter not touching the back of the chair....

it is physically impossible to do the leaning forward,
and then whipping the upper body back to gain momentum,
while sitting in the chair.

If you try it,
you will fall out of the chair.


The chair exercise is rather humbling.


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## Woody69 (Feb 17, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> Woody:
> 
> Like field14 says,
> some folks on the practice range have a rather unusual
> ...


LOL, Well there's your problem ! :wink: :tongue:

That's obviously over bowed if you have to go through all that to get it back, i don't think you need to worry about the chair test in that situation ! :tongue: :wink:

Woody


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## VA Vince (Aug 30, 2005)

I did what Pat did mentioned above. That came to 56lbs. As for my DL, I am a true measured 29" and shoot that on my hunting rig. Target I am now down to 28" and I am comfortable with it. I need one good day to spend at the range and play with my draw a bit. I want to see my scores from 29",28.75,28.5 and 28. They all feel good to me, just want to see which scores the best. If that makes sense .


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Woody69 said:


> LOL, Well there's your problem ! :wink: :tongue:
> 
> That's obviously over bowed if you have to go through all that to get it back, i don't think you need to worry about the chair test in that situation ! :tongue: :wink:
> 
> Woody



The fellow is a friend of mine.
I suspect he has a shoulder injury
and is just too stubborn to drop the draw weight.

When he goes through "the dance",
his wrist actually never goes above shoulder level.

It's a combination low draw (below shoulder level)
and the whipping of the upper body.

Makes me wince just to watch.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> The fellow is a friend of mine.
> I suspect he has a shoulder injury
> and is just too stubborn to drop the draw weight.
> 
> ...


If he keeps that up that shoulder injury is going to become a vertabrae injury soon enough


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The chair test is pretty much the CONVINCER for the BOWHUNTER that won't LISTEN that he is overbowed....once you put them down on the chair and tell them that NOW...think about the COLD weather, you haven't drawn the bow in hours or maybe even a few days, you are bundled up in heavy clothing, and you are sitting down in the treestand, up high off the ground. MR BIG comes sauntering in...and you know you have to be stealthy...DRAW YOUR BOW.....

Once they try THIS and see for themselves how they almost fall off the chair, struggle, grunt (many of them do GRUNT), and all that movement...they UNDERSTAND.

So, we leave them on the chair, take off a full turn of poundage, and let them try it again...if they still struggle, we take 1/2 turn more OFF the poundage...and do this until they no longer struggle on the chair. Most of the time, it is around 2 full turns (about 6# of draw weight), but sometimes less and sometimes MORE than that.

They UNDERSTAND this exercise...but WILL NOT normally listen if you just tell them while standing on the shooting line...since they ARE, somehow, getting the bow drawn back and figure it won't be any problem from a treestand or don't think about the COLD, BULKY CLOTHES, and SITTING DOWN, or leaning over part of it all.

All they care about is HIGH POUNDAGE, KINETIC ENERGY (more HYPE), and SPEED....that is all they hear about...

Also, it is amazing, but once we've set them up off the chair...they get back up on the line...and the low elbow against the waist, hip gyrating, skying the bow, and pushing the bow away, and swinging to get momentum...STOPS...amazing....

But you can spend HOURS with them trying to teach them to draw with the big BACK MUSCLES and the CORRECTLY postioned drawing hand, wrist, forearm, elbow and shoulder...and if you don't CRANK THE BOW DOWN...they never will get it.. But sit 'me on the chair...and you get through to them in MINUTES!

Some people can see it without the "demo"...but ALL of them see it WITH the demo...

What is really SAD...is the number of KIDS that are being OVERBOWED and taught this skying the bow, gyrating the hips, elbow against the waist or torso, and pushing and shoving to get momentum just to break the bow over...and then they....anchor behind their ear to boot...IT IS DISGUSTING that a parent would do this to their kid...but often times...the PARENT does it too!

field14


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## Woody69 (Feb 17, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> The fellow is a friend of mine.
> I suspect he has a shoulder injury
> and is just too stubborn to drop the draw weight.
> 
> ...


It might be time for some tough love, cure him or kill him, take him to a full FITA shoot and see how long he lasts, he will either wise up and drop some poundage or drop out of archery altogether, either way you are probably saving him a fortune in future medical bills !

Woody


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## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

29" draw length and 56#

Last year i shot this at outdoor field and when i went inside i dropped down to around 50# for indoors.

This year i shot at 56# outdoors and when i went indoors i left it at 56#

I started out with a score of 299-45 then had a score of 300-49 then a score of 297-45 on a blue face target.

I am shooting a lot better with a weight of 56# for indoors and also have been doing a lot of bike riding also.

I have not got tired shooting at 56# either shooting about 70 arrows at a tournament. So i am gonna shoot it like this for a while and see how it goes. 

When i get back home i am gonna try the sitting in chair method and see how i do with is that way. AC


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