# arm and shoulder pain when shooting



## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Too little information to help. Which arm/shoulder? String side or bow side? What kind of bow, compound or recurve? Bow weight? Pictures or video?? I think any "guess" would be just that at this point.

Arne


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I am a right handed shooter. It's a compound bow. 50 lbs. 75% let-off. The pain is in my bow arm and shoulder. I have a heck of a time holding on target as well. My float is very erratic and is hard to bring up on the X. It feels like there is a long rubber band tied to the end of my stab to the floor. When I bring the scope up to the X there seems to be something pulling it back down, so I kind of have to strain to bring it back up and I get a up and down situation when aiming.


Moebow said:


> Too little information to help. Which arm/shoulder? String side or bow side? What kind of bow, compound or recurve? Bow weight? Pictures or video?? I think any "guess" would be just that at this point.
> 
> Arne


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I think if you post a picture of you at full draw, straight on and arrow level, you'd get "nuts & bolts" to respond. Sounds like you may have a draw length problem from your description of the "heavy" bow. But to really help we need pictures.

Arne


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> I have ben experiencing a lot of pain in the Deltoid, Trapezius and inner/outer elbow. Is this a case of to long a draw length.


Deltoid and trapezius on the bow arm side.

So,
upper trapezius?
middle trapezius?
lower trapezius?

The MUCH more concerning thing
is the "lots of pain" for the inner/outer elbow.

Typically, we talk about a pain scale of 1-10. 10, being the worst pain you have ever experienced in your life.
If you have ever had a 3rd degree burn, that's a 10.

So,
where on the pain scale,
if a 1 is a sunburn.

Any tingling in the fingers, bow hand?

If so,
which fingers? ALL of them?
Only the thumb, pointer finger and one side of the middle finger?

Other side of middle finger, 4th finger and pinky?

How's your grip strength? for the bow hand?

This is not normal.

Go see your doc, is the standard answer.

Pain, ONLY when shooting?
For how long? Pain after just one SHOT?

History of arthritis?
Bursitis?

Doing anything out of your normal routine lately?

Go see your doc.

Muscle soreness COULD be just really really BAD form
and over-use...(shooting too many arrows).

Pain at the inner/outer elbow,
COULD be tendonitis...IF there are no associated TINGLING sensations in the fingers.

If you do have tingling/ numbness in the fingers, then
we are talking radiculopathy..and have to look for underlying causes,
which is something for your doc (primary care)...and a specialist, maybe.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

]O.k. I went to my primary doctor today because of the pain issue. I was referred to a pain specialist that I was able to go to today who gave me a EMG/Electromyography, and found an issue w/ the ulnar nerve in my arm near my left/ bow arm elbow. The pain in my Deltoid and Trapeziuses is caused by a hyper extension of the muscles, (basically a strain) in these muscles. Now.... I have ben experiencing a High tear w/ my Hoyt AE that no matter what I do, and I mean NOTHING as for tuning, cannot get rid of. By applying a lot of heel in my grip, I was able to calm the high tear down quite a bit. All this was discussed w/ the Dr. and taken into consideration. Because of the lower wrist needed to get rid of the high tear, it was causing an over extension of my arm and shoulder muscles. 
I don't think anything is wrong w/ my form, release or follow through. I have ben shooting for many years and have never had an issue w/ a high tear that I have NOT ben able to tune out w/ normal methods. I never had any high tear issues in my archery life until I purchased this bow.
The bow has severe vertical upwards nock travel no matter how the cams are timed. I have ben advised to not shoot for a coupe of weeks. Hear is a pic of my form W/ no hyper extension where I am comfortable and get a 2" high tear at 13 yds.
View attachment 2084117


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

take a brake from archery,go back to doctor have doctor make appointment for you to see a therapist and learn some rubber ban muscle threrapy to help those shoulders. i have had the major bow shoulder surgery its not an easy surgery ,i now shoot a 40 lb. hoyt bow it shoots just fine and my shoulder seems to handle it better too.good luck


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> ]O.k. I went to my primary doctor today because of the pain issue. I was referred to a pain specialist that I was able to go to today who gave me a EMG/Electromyography, and found an issue w/ the ulnar nerve in my arm near my left/ bow arm elbow. The pain in my Deltoid and Trapeziuses is caused by a hyper extension of the muscles, (basically a strain) in these muscles.
> View attachment 2084117


So,
the doc did a needle EMG to measure the NCV (nerve conduction velocities).

Pay attention to any tingling/numbnesw in your fingers,
especially the pinky and 4th fingers and one side of the middle finger.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> Now.... I have ben experiencing a High tear w/ my Hoyt AE that no matter what I do, and I mean NOTHING as for tuning, cannot get rid of. By applying a lot of heel in my grip, I was able to calm the high tear down quite a bit. All this was discussed w/ the Dr. and taken into consideration. Because of the lower wrist needed to get rid of the high tear, it was causing an over extension of my arm and shoulder muscles.
> I don't think anything is wrong w/ my form, release or follow through. I have ben shooting for many years and have never had an issue w/ a high tear that I have NOT ben able to tune out w/ normal methods. I never had any high tear issues in my archery life until I purchased this bow.
> The bow has severe vertical upwards nock travel no matter how the cams are timed. I have ben advised to not shoot for a coupe of weeks. Hear is a pic of my form W/ no hyper extension where I am comfortable and get a 2" high tear at 13 yds.
> View attachment 2084117


Drop the d-loop lower...on the bowstring.
That will help tremendously.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

Yea he stuck them damn blasted needles in me and zapped. I do have the pins & needles in the fingers. I woke up a few times last night w/ dead arm as well. Doc told me to try a tennis elbow brace.


nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> the doc did a needle EMG to measure the NCV (nerve conduction velocities).
> 
> Pay attention to any tingling/numbnesw in your fingers,
> especially the pinky and 4th fingers and one side of the middle finger.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I will get to it after I get the brace. Seems like someone has told me to do this before. Is it o.k. to have the arrow below the nock point?


nuts&bolts said:


> Drop the d-loop lower...on the bowstring.
> That will help tremendously.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> Now.... I have ben experiencing a High tear w/ my Hoyt AE that no matter what I do, and I mean NOTHING as for tuning, cannot get rid of. By applying a lot of heel in my grip, I was able to calm the high tear down quite a bit. All this was discussed w/ the Dr. and taken into consideration. Because of the lower wrist needed to get rid of the high tear, it was causing an over extension of my arm and shoulder muscles.
> I don't think anything is wrong w/ my form, release or follow through. I have ben shooting for many years and have never had an issue w/ a high tear that I have NOT ben able to tune out w/ normal methods. I never had any high tear issues in my archery life until I purchased this bow.
> The bow has severe vertical upwards nock travel no matter how the cams are timed. I have ben advised to not shoot for a coupe of weeks. Hear is a pic of my form W/ no hyper extension where I am comfortable and get a 2" high tear at 13 yds.
> View attachment 2084117


Drop the d-loop lower...on the bowstring.
That will help tremendously.

The FIX is pretty obvious.

Look closely at the photo.
I have LEVELED the sight in your photo, to DEAD horizontal.

So,
you are getting a HIGH paper tear,
cuz,
well,
ummm

the ARROW is not level.



So,
how do you get the ARROW LEVEL at full draw,
when your target sight extension arm is also DEAD LEVEL...

OPTION 1) DROP the d-loop lower

OPTION 2) WEAKEN the top limb bolt

sooo,
clearly,
you have not done EVERYTHING yet...

to get the arrow DEAD LEVEL,
when the target sight extension arm is DEAD LEVEL.

WHEN you do weaken the top limb
and/or
lower the d-loop position on the center serving...

then,
when you get the ARROW DEAD LEVEL,
when your target sight extension arm is also DEAD LEVEL


parallel to each other,
when at full draw

your HIGH TEAR will go away.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

The arrow is 90 degrease off of the string at brace & parallel w/ my sight extension & the cable guard. When I draw the string back the nock point rises to what you see in the picture. When I let down the nock point will go down. It does this no matter how I time the cams. If I raise the rest up so that the nock point is about 3/8 low (point of arrow up) it will get rid of the high tear. It is very visible on my drawbored. W/ an arrow w/ a little scope level on it, I crank the string back. I also have another level on the arrow shelf. The bow stays level, but the arrow angles point down/ nock high and goes out of level (bubble races towards the nock).


nuts&bolts said:


> Drop the d-loop lower...on the bowstring.
> That will help tremendously.
> 
> The FIX is pretty obvious.
> ...


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

A lot more at play hear than I expected. Outside the box.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> The arrow is 90 degrease off of the string at brace & parallel w/ my sight extension & the cable guard. When I draw the string back the nock point rises to what you see in the picture. When I let down the nock point will go down. It does this no matter how I time the cams. If I raise the rest up so that the nock point is about 3/8 low (point of arrow up) it will get rid of the high tear. It is very visible on my drawbored. W/ an arrow w/ a little scope level on it, I crank the string back. I also have another level on the arrow shelf. The bow stays level, but the arrow angles point down/ nock high and goes out of level (bubble races towards the nock).


Then,
your top limbs are working HARDER
than your bottom limbs.

Or
another way to think of this,
your bottom limbs are working LESS hard than your top limbs.

So,
if you have inspected all four limbs...

no damage to the bottom limbs,

then,
the easy fix is to weaken the top limb bolt
to get the limbs working together,

which means,
at full draw,
the arrow will be LEVEL
when your target sight extension arm is level.


*Sooo,
full tear down
and a very very careful inspection of the bottom limbs.

The bottom limbs are behaving weak,
for some reason.*


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I actually did tear it down a few weeks ago, and switched the the limbs top to bottom for a couple of reasons. One reason was the high tear issue, and the other was an edge splinter on the top limb that I kept catching w/ my hand, and a clicking noise when drawing back (lubed up and still clicking in top limb pocket, also clicks when turning top limb bolt). All the limbs had a 62w def. # on them. The limbs are actually the second set to splinter like this in the last 18 months. Loosening the top limb bolt does help, but it takes about 5 turns to get rid of the high tear.


nuts&bolts said:


> Then,
> your top limbs are working HARDER
> than your bottom limbs.
> 
> ...


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

go see a specialist about your shoulder or maybe the problem is a disc in neck area ? ,mine was both problems which i ended up having two surgeries . that arm brace won`t help, i had one they suck. there are alot of doctors out there that don`t have the right answers, i spent three years and many doctors to get to the real problems with my shoulder.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> I actually did tear it down a few weeks ago, and switched the the limbs top to bottom for a couple of reasons. One reason was the high tear issue, and the other was an edge splinter on the top limb that I kept catching w/ my hand, and a clicking noise when drawing back (lubed up and still clicking in top limb pocket, also clicks when turning top limb bolt). All the limbs had a 62w def. # on them. The limbs are actually the second set to splinter like this in the last 18 months. Loosening the top limb bolt does help, but it takes about 5 turns to get rid of the high tear.


I think you have mis-matched limbs.
Or
your limbs were "matched" at one time...

but the 5 turns is telling you 
ONE set of limbs is not doing the full work...one set is weak.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> I will get to it after I get the brace. Seems like someone has told me to do this before. Is it o.k. to have the arrow below the nock point?


That is a temporary fix.
Weaking one limb bolt is another temporary fix.

I believe you have one set of limbs, significantly weaker than the other set,
cuz...you had to weaken one limb bolt 5 turns, to get both sets (uppers and lowers) to work at the same amount of bending effort.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pete53 said:


> go see a specialist about your shoulder or maybe the problem is a disc in neck area ? ,mine was both problems which i ended up having two surgeries . that arm brace won`t help, i had one they suck. there are alot of doctors out there that don`t have the right answers, i spent three years and many doctors to get to the real problems with my shoulder.


With the needle EMG,
and measuring the nerve conduction velocities...

a neurologist can pin point where the "traffic jam" is located,
where the nerve impingement is occurring.

A MRI will identify issues with a bulging disc in the neck area, if that is one of the contributing factors.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I will have detailed results Tuesday for the EMG. Also I had the same problem w/ the first set of limbs. The second set really didn't improve anything and they have splintered just like the originals, same spot as well. I have to find another Hoyt dealer to warranty the limbs cuz the one I got the bow from won't even look at it until hunting season is done w/. Is there something else that could be wrong other than the libs?


nuts&bolts said:


> With the needle EMG,
> and measuring the nerve conduction velocities...
> 
> a neurologist can pin point where the "traffic jam" is located,
> ...


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I really hate bothering you all w/ this crap, but it's driving me friggin nuts. 18 months and I still can't get this thing to tune. I have never had an issue like this w/ any of my other bows.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

View attachment 2085559
W/ the cams timed the way they should be. This is the only way to get rid of the high tear and to get the bow to respond to "ANY" type of tuning methods. Bare shaft, creep, paper, etc. Also I have the top limbs backed out 2 turns w/ this rest adjustment. When the string is drawn back the arrow will be 90 deg. off the string.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

JMO, but it sounds to me like you are trying to correct an improper blade/ blade rest set up by adjusting your cam sync. 18 months, 2 sets of limbs and same issues. 5 turns on the limbs would mean a drastic limb mismatch or different size rockers on one end of the bow. Take a few minutes and throw a different rest on it and see if it improves, try a drop away or limb driver.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> View attachment 2085559
> W/ the cams timed the way they should be. This is the only way to get rid of the high tear and to get the bow to respond to "ANY" type of tuning methods. Bare shaft, creep, paper, etc. Also I have the top limbs backed out 2 turns w/ this rest adjustment. When the string is drawn back the arrow will be 90 deg. off the string.


Tail high nock tear is common,
when shooting a blade rest.

I had the same issue,
tuning a blade rest.

UNTIL...

I set the blade angle at 30 degrees
switched to a 0.008 inch thickness blade.

Got rid of the d-loop, cuz with a d-loop, I ALSO could not get rid of the TAIL HIGH arrow flight.



bow sideways on a table,
nock the arrow onto your d-loop
set arrow parallel to your target sight



arrow rest bottomed out



move arrow rest up until the blade touches the arrow 
with ZERO bending on the 0.008 blade



when you hold up the bow, vertically
blade will SAG A LOT....

this is a GOOD thing.

doing this procedure,
I had to adjust the arrow rest HEIGHT
only 0.004-inches
to get this result.



Yup,
a blade arrow rest is very picky about height adjustment.



Each click on my DS Advantage arrow rest is a 0.002-inch movement.

Just two clicks, 0.004-inches
dropped my group size in half.

So,
try the thinnest blade,
and make sure your arrow SAGS, when you hold up the bow vertically.

If you go TOO stiff on the blade,
you get the TAIL high arrow flight behavior.

NEXT,
the other thing that killed MY tail high arrow behavior, with a blade rest,
was switching to a torqueless loop.



The Torqueless loop, ADDS a lot of DOWN pressure to the arrow.

You MUST use nocks with REALLY long ears.

if you do not,
you risk a dry fire from nock pinch.

I use Beiter asymmetric nocks,
with the angled FORWARDS nock groove.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I have tried deferent blade angles w/ no positive results. You have my attention w/ the rockers though. I have also tried the torque less loop w/ no improvement.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
with THIS much SAG on the blade arrow rest...



I can get THIS creep tuning result.



I aimed at the x-ring, with the bareshaft and NAILED the x-ring.
The purpose of this exercise is to HIT the top edge of the masking tape.

So,
I also aimed WAY left, ON PURPOSE,
with the fletched arrow.

Again,
the goal of this picture
is to ONLY demonstrate that the fletched arrow
and the bareshaft arrow
have the SAME HEIGHT....for point of impact.

I have some newbies, ask WHY the fletched was missing SOOO far to the left.

I have to explain,
that I did not want to kill my bareshaft arrow, at 20 yards.

So,
you CAN get a blade arrow rest to behave
and have DEAD level nock travel (no TAIL high behavior).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

donjuan said:


> I have tried deferent blade angles w/ no positive results. You have my attention w/ the rockers though.


Try a d-loop with two knots under the arrow nock.

See if that helps.

Drop blade angle to 30 degrees, with your thinnest blade.



A simple paper triangle
1-inch vertical leg
1.75-inch horizontal leg...

gives you 30 degrees.

I went through the same troubles,
years ago, with blade arrow rests.

I did the ridiculous nock low thing,
I did the crazy tiller thing weakening the top limb bolt, way way way too much.

I stumbled on the Catfish loop, YouTube video
and the GRIV Torqueless Loop video years ago.

Gave it a try
and voila.

problem solved. I must have spent days, trying to tune a Spot Hogg Premier rest.



Got the exact same symptoms you are describing.

Then,
I stumbled on this set the arrow parallel to the target sight procedure.

I have tweaked the instructions, to make it dead simple.

The arrow running parallel to the target sight arm,
simulates firing a dead level arrow at full draw,
aiming at a shoulder height bullseye.

So,
set the blade arrow rest height,
to just KISS the arrow shaft,
when the arrow is flying DEAD LEVEL.

This puts you REALLY close 
to the final sweet spot arrow rest height.

STILL,
I got a slight amount of TAIL high behavior.

So,
the last piece of the puzzle was the Torqueless Loop.



I did the two knots of the d-loop under the arrow nock FIRST.

Then,
I ended up with the Torqueless loop.



Length of the Torqueless loop is a BIG deal.

Took me 4 attempts to dial in the length.

TOO LONG or TOO short,
your groups get wider.


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I tried putting a 27 1/2" A mod on the bottom cam and kept the 28" B mod on the top cam and then re-timed the cams. I got a dead straight right tear that I was able to get out w/ one full yolk twist. The bow is now shooting a near perfect bullet hole w/ fletched and bare shafts. So it seems to me that when the string is being drawn back, the bottom cam is unwinding to much string w/ the correct mod. Why??? Is it possible that the cams are not matched even know the numbers match up (RK2BR-RK2TR)??? Or could the machining be off??? Or even the same for the mods.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Could be the limbs themselves. Not likely miss marked cams as numbers are put in in manufacturing process when built not after. Did you get the same result with both limbs bottomed out?


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## donjuan (Dec 19, 2009)

I think it is the limbs. I tore the bow down and inspected everything, lubed is all up and switched the limbs top to bottom. the nock travel seems to be gone now. I do have to get the limbs replaced because of the splinter and the pealing.


Joe Schnur said:


> Could be the limbs themselves. Not likely miss marked cams as numbers are put in in manufacturing process when built not after. Did you get the same result with both limbs bottomed out?


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