# Form and Draw Length Improvement



## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

Hello,

Just getting back into archery again and looking to improve my form. Also unsure about my draw length, as if feels like it may be a touch short because of how much I have to bend my head down to touch the string. Any and all feedback appreciated, just trying to learn and improve. Thanks in advance! 

Draw Video 1
Draw video 2


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Redo photo, with double the distance between you and camera, so we can see your shoes and the carpet.
With double the distance between you and the camera phone, then we can see ALL of the bow, and ALL of the front stab.

Drop the long sleeve sweatshirt, and put on short sleeves, so I can see your elbow (right side).
With DOUBLE the distance between you and the camera, then, I can do a proper form analysis. Right elbow cut off.
Cannot see ankles. CAnnot see feet/shoes. If we cannot see the WHOLE picture, then, no point in doing a form analysis on a partial photo.

1) bow shoulder too high. DROP both shoulders. This means top of shoulders BELOW your chin bone.
2) bow hand knuckles not 45 degrees. ROTATE bow hand wrist.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BrassEnthusiast said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just getting back into archery again and looking to improve my form. Also unsure about my draw length, as if feels like it may be a touch short because of how much I have to bend my head down to touch the string. Any and all feedback appreciated, just trying to learn and improve. Thanks in advance!
> 
> ...


Shoulders (tops of shoulders) belong BELOW the arrow.


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## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> Redo photo, with double the distance between you and camera, so we can see your shoes and the carpet.
> With double the distance between you and the camera phone, then we can see ALL of the bow, and ALL of the front stab.
> 
> Drop the long sleeve sweatshirt, and put on short sleeves, so I can see your elbow (right side).
> ...


Attached is a more zoomed out photo. I will attempt to retake with your suggestions ASAP.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BrassEnthusiast said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just getting back into archery again and looking to improve my form. Also unsure about my draw length, as if feels like it may be a touch short because of how much I have to bend my head down to touch the string. Any and all feedback appreciated, just trying to learn and improve. Thanks in advance!
> 
> ...


Classic NEWBIE mistake. Your draw the bow, and then, you swing your head to fit the non-moving bow.











Head is pointing WAY out of final position. You have this exactly backwards. BEFORE you raise the bow,
the FIRST thing you do is set your head to FINAL shooting position. Eye of the tiger, LASER locked on target focus. Decide where you want your head, BEFORE you lift the bow.
Wiggle your chin all you want, aim your nose at the ceiling if you like, BEFORE you move / lift your bow hand.
Drop your chin/nose to FINAL shooting position, BEFORE you lift the bow even a millimeter.
When you are happy with your neck waggle, when you are done exercising your chin up and down and left and right, and you have your head in FINAL shooting position, staring down the target....LOCK your head in final shooting position, LOCK down your chin height, LOCK down your head/neck rotation left-right swing.

FREEZE your head/neck and NOW start to lift the bow arm.

Example.






Marcus sets his head position FIRST.
After head position is locked in, then, the ONLY things that move are the two hands.
Peep too high? You do NOT waggle your head. MOVE both hands down.
Peep too low? You do NOT drop your chin. MOVE both hands UP.
PEEP too far left? You do NOT turn your head left. SWING bow arm to the right.
PEEP too far right? You do NOT turn your head right. SWING bow arm to the left.

Your head is frozen in concrete. SWING the bow arm left or right, to see through the peep.
Your head is frozen in concrete. SWING bow arm up or down, if the peep is too low or too high.

DUMP the head on a swivel joint. Accuracy will never find you, with the head waggle on a swivel joint.
If you FREEZE your head consistently, before each and every shot...and train yourself to move only your hands,
then, accuracy will find you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BrassEnthusiast said:


> Attached is a more zoomed out photo. I will attempt to retake with your suggestions ASAP.
> View attachment 7312624


Excellent camera distance. Now I need you to wear your shoes, that you wear when shooting. Changes how you stand, due to heel height.

Dump the long sleeve, cuz I need to see hip joints (tuck shirt into pants)
cuz I need to see the elbows (both sides), so a short sleeve,
RELAX and drop both shoulder joints/collar bones, cuz the tops of shoulders needs to be BELOW the arrow.

ROTATE bow hand like this, and the left-right misses will shrink noticeably.


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## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> Classic NEWBIE mistake. Your draw the bow, and then, you swing your head to fit the non-moving bow.
> 
> 
> View attachment 7312623
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I will retake picture.

The issue with my head position, even when I focus in keeping it very still, It feels like I still need to drop my nose to the string quote a ways. I will try to retake when holding head still.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BrassEnthusiast said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will retake picture.
> 
> The issue with my head position, even when I focus in keeping it very still, It feels like I still need to drop my nose to the string quote a ways. I will try to retake when holding head still.


 If you need to "DROP" your nose to the string...then your release hand needs to move UP so you can see through the peep.

If you raise your release hand to see through the peep, so you don't have to drop your nose...and the release hand "feels weird", out of place....this simply means the peep is in the wrong spot,
so you goto the bow press and move the peep UP higher.

But, if you don't have a press, then go buy a press. If you cannot afford a bow press,
then goto a pro shop and pay them to move the peep for you. Do not try to SHOVE a peep in the bowstring (higher or lower) without a bow press. MUST use a bow press, to squeeze the limb tips, to relax the bowstring, and only move the peep when the string tension is relaxed, while in a bow press.


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## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> If you need to "DROP" your nose to the string...then your release hand needs to move UP so you can see through the peep.
> 
> If you raise your release hand to see through the peep, so you don't have to drop your nose...and the release hand "feels weird", out of place....this simply means the peep is in the wrong spot,
> so you goto the bow press and move the peep UP higher.
> ...


thank you for all the advice. I tried to retake the picture and it is below.
As far as my anchor. I don’t think I can raise the release hand up any farther? I am already putting my jaw line between my index and middle finger on my release hand, I’m not sure where i would anchor if I moved it up?

I drop my nose just so it can touch the string. I think if I moved my peep up this would cause me to no longer be able to see through it? I certainly open to giving it a try. They have a press at the club I am a member of. Only thing I can think of is increasing my dad slightly so that when I pull back the string touches my nose without having to stop my head, is this a bad idea?

I took a few more videos with trying to keep my head more still. I will post the links after uploading.


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## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

here are the draw videos. There is still some head movement but I am working on keeping it still. Thanks again and happy thanksgiving 🦃 

Draw video 3

Draw Video 4


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BrassEnthusiast said:


> thank you for all the advice. I tried to retake the picture and it is below.
> As far as my anchor. I don’t think I can raise the release hand up any farther? I am already putting my jaw line between my index and middle finger on my release hand, I’m not sure where i would anchor if I moved it up?
> 
> I drop my nose just so it can touch the string. I think if I moved my peep up this would cause me to no longer be able to see through it? I certainly open to giving it a try. They have a press at the club I am a member of. Only thing I can think of is increasing my dad slightly so that when I pull back the string touches my nose without having to stop my head, is this a bad idea?
> ...


So, basic anatomy. The release hand position is controlled by the combination of the d-loop length and the bow draw length size (where d-loop attaches to the bowstring). The MORE you bend the left elbow, the further back the release hand lands on the side of your head. So, the TIP of your right elbow is LOWER than your wrist. From CORNER of right elbow to the wrist joint, your right arm is flowing UPHILL, so the d-loop is too long and the bow arm elbow is bent too much, and the draw size MIGHT be too long.

Cannot evaluate until you rid of the LOW left elbow. The arrow is dead level.
However, the SHOULDER joint is HIGHER than the left elbow joint, meaning the upper arm bone (left side)
is running DOWNHILL from shoulder joint to left elbow joint.

Nock needs to slide FORWARDS and UP on your head. You will do ONE more experimental form photo,
and push the riser MAX distance away from your face, until the left elbow joint is at the SAME HEIGHT as the left shoulder joint.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Side note. Go get your bow tuned properly. The cams/limb bending is MASSIVELY out of equal bending. That means the cables are no where near equal length. Upper limb is bending WAY more than lower limb. I'm not talking equal limb bolt turns. I'm talking ONE cable is far away from the same length as the other cable, FORCING the upper limb to bend way more than the lower limb. HOW can I tell from just a photo? Simple. The riser is NO WHERE near 90 degrees to the arrow. Arrow is dead level, and yet the riser is tilting WAY forwards.

YELLOW double arrow between the red vertical reference line and the edge of the cam, shows you how much the upper limb is bending TOO MUCH, cuz the one cable is out of whack.










The blue triangle is your string angle. NOtice how the blue triangle is not symmetrical.
Need a photo of your bow with both limb pockets touching a wall. If a drop away arrow rest, disconnect cord so the drop away arrow rest arm is in the FULL up position. Photo like this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Let's confirm your bow tune is reasonable, before fixing form issues. Want to confirm that d-loop is located properly.
With bow at brace height, and with both limb pockets touching a wall/door jamb...want to confirm that cams are mirror images for starting rotation position. Double check that both limb bolts ARE the same number of turns away from maximum. Confirm that both draw stops are in the SAME HOLE position, at the top and bottom axle.

If the draw stops are in mis-matched holes,....say bottom draw stop is in hole D, and top draw stop is in hole E, or hole F or hole G...then, top cam will rotate WAY more than bottom cam, and cause the upper limb to bend MUCH harder than bottom limb.


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## ruffjason (May 20, 2018)

If arrows go where you want them to then don't overthink it. If not, listen to the guys here that offer solid advise. 

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## DragondadB (Nov 27, 2020)

This is incredible. I've learned more in the past 5 minutes than I have in the months I've been watching videos. Thanks!! I've been doing all of these, especially the head move.


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## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

Hey


nuts&bolts said:


> Let's confirm your bow tune is reasonable, before fixing form issues. Want to confirm that d-loop is located properly.
> With bow at brace height, and with both limb pockets touching a wall/door jamb...want to confirm that cams are mirror images for starting rotation position. Double check that both limb bolts ARE the same number of turns away from maximum. Confirm that both draw stops are in the SAME HOLE position, at the top and bottom axle.
> 
> If the draw stops are in mis-matched holes,....say bottom draw stop is in hole D, and top draw stop is in hole E, or hole F or hole G...then, top cam will rotate WAY more than bottom cam, and cause the upper limb to bend MUCH harder than bottom limb.
> ...


hey lug nut,

sorry it took a while to get these to you, holidays. Hope your thanksgiving was good.

I was able to get the pictures of my bow you asked for. I could not get it dead level because of how the dampener on the bottom was preventing it from sitting perfectly on the wall like the top limb pocket. You can see those in the pics below. Also I’ve been concentrated on putting some of your advice on my draw into practice, the movement is a head habit to break but I think it’s gotten better, so I took an updated video as well.

Draw video 5


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

D-loop height looks fine. I compared the earlier photo to the recent photo. Same t-shirt, but different days.
Todays photo looks better, for full draw posture, but you appear to be FORCING the top of the grip forwards.
Meaning your forearm and wrist at NOT relaxed, and you are forcing the top of the grip FORWARDS.










I leveled the arrow in both photos. So, photo on the left with the blue triangle, you are putting a lot of pressure on the top of the grip, forcing the top of the riser to point down towards the floor. Current photo, right elbow is better, right elbow is a bit higher than right wrist. This is good. Yellow triangle shows you are FORCING the top of the grip with less force than the before photo. RElax the left forearm, and allow the back of the hand/left wrist to have ZERO resistance. Make your left wrist as mushy as a goose down pillow, and allow back of hand to match the angle of the riser. There should be ZERO tension in your left wrist.

Make the knuckles on left hand look more like this.



Like this.


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## BrassEnthusiast (Oct 8, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> D-loop height looks fine. I compared the earlier photo to the recent photo. Same t-shirt, but different days.
> Todays photo looks better, for full draw posture, but you appear to be FORCING the top of the grip forwards.
> Meaning your forearm and wrist at NOT relaxed, and you are forcing the top of the grip FORWARDS.
> 
> ...


thank you, I will work on my wrist and hand positioning and try your suggestions. I have huge hands, my hand is turned out so my pinky finger will not touch the riser at full draw, though not quite as drastic as your example photo. I will try and make that adjustment as well. Hopefully I can try and get a picture from the front similar to your example.

Appreciate all the help and analysis.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BrassEnthusiast said:


> thank you, I will work on my wrist and hand positioning and try your suggestions. I have huge hands, my hand is turned out so my pinky finger will not touch the riser at full draw, though not quite as drastic as your example photo. I will try and make that adjustment as well. Hopefully I can try and get a picture from the front similar to your example.
> 
> Appreciate all the help and analysis.


I have XL hands as well. I can see from your wrist band, that your knuckles are far too vertical,
meaning the hand (bow hand) is too vertical, so much of the thumb muscle is ooozing past the right vertical edge of the grip. FOr newbies, I use a aluminum foil ball, wadded up super tight, into a ball about 2-inches in diameter.

What is the ball for?

Acts as a spacer, so rotating the bow hand wrist becomes automatic, no thinking required.





Hold the wadded up foil ball with three fingers, pinky finger, 4th finger (ring finger) and middle finger. The ball will act as a spacer and FORCE more rotation on your knuckles. Like this.



But that looks WEIRD. Don't matter.
But that FEELS weird. Really don't matter.
Why do I gotta use a ball spacer? To rotate your knuckles. Why do I gotta rotate my knuckles THAT much?
Cuz you and I have the same size hands. 2-inch BALL really?

Fine. Make a 1-7/8ths diameter ball. BUT my fingers don't reach the riser anymore. 
Exactly.
BUT, how am I supposed to HOLD the riser? You aren't.
Whaddya mean?

The wrist loop (wrist sling) prevents you from dropping the bow, so NONE of your fingertips need to touch the riser.
The side of the thumb (thumb should point where you want the arrow to fly),
the SIDE of your thumb guides where you point the front stabilizer...not your fingers.

But, the bow might jump forwards. That's ok. Give it a whirl shooting at a target at YOUR shoulder height,
only 2 yards away.


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