# NFAA Divisions / Classes ?



## BowFan33 (Mar 27, 2014)

Sounds like you are just worried about the money side of things. Maybe smaller group awards could be adjusted. Ribbons for those with less than 5 in a class. Medals for those with less than 20. Bowls for those with 20+. I agree that there are a ton of classes, but everyone has their way of shooting and who are we to say that they shouldn't have a level playing field. Logistically I'm sure it is a nightmare for the organizers. If anyone can complain about the number of classes it would be them.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

WA has it figured out. 3 classes standard across all nations. No electronics.
72 arrow round too.....


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

ribbons and medals would be a much better ideal for these classes. I do think some archers shoot in these smaller classes just to have a better chance at a reward. I also like the 3 class ideal ? or maybe like in rifle shoots they use a lewis type round and classes are determined by scores turned in.


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

I shoot in one of the smaller classes senior male bow hunter freestyle and not because I have less people to shoot against to increase my odds for winning a bowl. I shoot smbhfs because I hunt with fixed pins and not a moveable sight. For myself it is the best practice for hunting


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

The number of classes in EVERY organization is OUT OF CONTROL!!!!!


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

funny about the classes. When I started, there were 3 styles . BB , FS , & Heavy tackle.. if you have a problem with to many classes, Call your director
However, it was the directors who a few years ago opened the flood gates even wider.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

I am not at all motivated by the chance to win a trophy, medal, or ribbon. I shoot NFAA Trad or WA barebow recurve. A big motivation for me is to be able to shoot with archers of like equipment. If given a choice of being assured of a trophy due to low participation or shooting with 30 archers with like equipment with no trophies being offered, I will choose the latter every time.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

There have been proposals at just about every directors meeting to cut classes, no Bowl for under a certain number etc.... I agree to cut classes and I am pretty sure another agenda proposal was submitted this year. Combine BB and BH, keep BB rules (I shoot BH class), combine FSL and BHFSL, so then you have finger compound no sight and sight class. Get rid of Silver Senior, and Master Senior, and make Senior class start at 60. There is a proposal to add another class also, BB Recurve, which in my opinion will further dilute the classes. Call your state directors, all proposals are already in and they should have them. One of the issues I have witnessed is trophy chasing, and with too many age classes this year in Cinci that happened.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Well said Ren. Although as you know I'd rather Trad got WA BB rules but I'm happy to see any progress.


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

The reason for the BB Recurve is because at Vegas and the NFAA indoor nationals there were more people shooting barebow with recurves then compounds is why it is being proposed


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

I'm not quite sure why so many people worry about other people getting a trophy.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

ccwilder3 said:


> I'm not quite sure why so many people worry about other people getting a trophy.


Don't those shooters pay the same entry fee and NFAA dues as everyone else? Pretty sure those trophies don't cost $1000. 


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Arcus said:


> I am not at all motivated by the chance to win a trophy, medal, or ribbon. I shoot NFAA Trad or WA barebow recurve. A big motivation for me is to be able to shoot with archers of like equipment. If given a choice of being assured of a trophy due to low participation or shooting with 30 archers with like equipment with no trophies being offered, I will choose the latter every time.


I was about to write a note like this, but here it is already. For me, the classes are not about the awards, but for the opportunity to shoot with people using similar equipment, and with people my same age category. It's mostly a social thing. It's more important for me to shoot with other finger shooters, see their equipment and techniques, even if I'm being soundly beaten, than it would be to shoot with a Freestyle (release) shooter achieving similar scores to mine. And I'd much rather shoot with people age 50+ (I'm approaching my 65th birthday) than with those in their 20's and 30's.

So yes, OK if they combine the age groups when calculating awards, or present lesser awards to smaller categories, but please continue to group SS-FSL with either other Seniors, or other finger shooters, or both when possible.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

rogersaddler said:


> The reason for the BB Recurve is because at Vegas and the NFAA indoor nationals there were more people shooting barebow with recurves then compounds is why it is being proposed


Um no. Not true


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

rogersaddler said:


> The reason for the BB Recurve is because at Vegas and the NFAA indoor nationals there were more people shooting barebow with recurves then compounds is why it is being proposed


There were quite a few at Vegas but only a couple were shooting under the proposed WA rules, most had long stabs and v bars etc.... Indoor I did not see any in Cinci in BB


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Boy is this going to feel good, Ren is 100% right, Mike you hit the nail on the head. I tried a few years ago to get all of the extra classes removed and the self serving Directors would not even let this come out of committee and to add one last thing "Pete 53 you are a pain in the backside and as of this date I am not even sure you are a NFAA member so but the Hell out. Brown Hornet is on to something. Can anyone tell why this feels so good...


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

archer_nm said:


> Boy is this going to feel good, Ren is 100% right, Mike you hit the nail on the head. I tried a few years ago to get all of the extra classes removed and the self serving Directors would not even let this come out of committee and to add one last thing "Pete 53 you are a pain in the backside and as of this date I am not even sure you are a NFAA member so but the Hell out. Brown Hornet is on to something. Can anyone tell why this feels so good...


I know why! Lol. Love ya Bob!


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

anyone notice what group of archer`s are leaving negative comments some from that group archers,some did leave kinda positive posts too ? bobby I do understand why you are protecting this group of archer`s that you enjoy shooting with. but at what cost should the NFAA be stuck paying for this small group ? oh by the way bobby yes I am a member and first joined the NFAA in 1974 . my question to you is how much money do you and the rest get for each NFAA meeting that seems to always be held at the time and place the NFAA archery shoot is on ? I kinda want to get the free ride too in the future !


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Boy is this going to feel good, Ren is 100% right, Mike you hit the nail on the head. I tried a few years ago to get all of the extra classes removed and the self serving Directors would not even let this come out of committee and to add one last thing "Pete 53 you are a pain in the backside and as of this date I am not even sure you are a NFAA member so but the Hell out. Brown Hornet is on to something. Can anyone tell why this feels so good...


This is the attitude of the NFAA directors and why I have little to no respect for any of them. I personally knew archers that would check to find an empty class at Nationals in order to win a Bowl. Last year in Darrington, I talked to a young adult female who said that she did not have to practice because her father found her a class with no one else to compete with. I also know anNFAA director's daughter that won a couple of Bowls in the past by doing the same.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

You know Ren!!!!! See you soon


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

huteson2us2 said:


> This is the attitude of the NFAA directors and why I have little to no respect for any of them. I personally knew archers that would check to find an empty class at Nationals in order to win a Bowl. Last year in Darrington, I talked to a young adult female who said that she did not have to practice because her father found her a class with no one else to compete with. I also know anNFAA director's daughter that won a couple of Bowls in the past by doing the same.


 yes I have seen it too at the national and that`s when a medal should be gotten instead of a bowl,matter fact maybe the bigger classes should give medals to 10 or more for those archers ? the other part of respect I have none for them either after how the MSAA in Minnesota was treated. my big question is how can someone that`s on the board or a director of the NFAA that shoots in a class with only a few archers but can bring up rules or vote on a rule or policy and they don`t shoot in the popular harder classes like the free style ? that's just wrong.


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

we could put everyone together & do FLIGHTS by SCORE. Top score to 5 from leader 1st flight & so one. Pros one class period, Amateurs one class FS one BB. Kids 0-16 one class FS & one BB. 17 shoots adult . Or 1-3 shooters 1 place current patch. 5 shooters 1st place medal/patch & 2nd place patch. 6 or more Bowl/patch, Medal/patch & 3rd patch... Personally, I think the patches that say National or State champion are awesome... Being an old guy, I understand that we have no chance competing with the younger shooters (on average-age does take it's toll) & the same goes for Kids. I understand how it makes kids feel competing (I have adult kids shooting AND several G-kids 10 through 13). I competed heavy for my 1st 30 years & then a long layoff with just hunting & a few shoots & lots of back yard 25+ & then back to both last 7 years. I mean I remember TWO DAY State Fields with more shooters than the Nationals of today.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

ahunter55 said:


> we could put everyone together & do FLIGHTS by SCORE. Top score to 5 from leader 1st flight & so one. Pros one class period, Amateurs one class FS one BB. Kids 0
> 
> another good ideal ! yep need some thoughts outside the box maybe ?? to get more archer`s back to shoots at all levels somehow ?? here in Minnesota the MSAA always draws way more archers to MSAA events than the MAA-NFAA events,maybe the two need too be one club again and just change some old foolish NFAA rules ?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Pete53 said:


> yes I have seen it too at the national and that`s when a medal should be gotten instead of a bowl,matter fact maybe the bigger classes should give medals to 10 or more for those archers ? the other part of respect I have none for them either after how the MSAA in Minnesota was treated. my big question is how can someone that`s on the board or a director of the NFAA that shoots in a class with only a few archers but can bring up rules or vote on a rule or policy and they don`t shoot in the popular harder classes like the free style ? that's just wrong.


So freestyle is harder than barebow? What an idiot, once again proving all he does is ***** but not show up to shoot. Put your money where your ignorance is spewing and come shoot with us.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

rsarns said:


> So freestyle is harder than barebow? What an idiot, once again proving all he does is ***** but not show up to shoot. Put your money where your ignorance is spewing and come shoot with us.


All styles are difficult if you want to preform at the elite level, you just show your arrogance and ignorance with your statement Pete.


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## just ulgy (Aug 23, 2012)

where did you get the information on agenda items. I'm the director from Wisconsin and have no such informatiom


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

rsarns said:


> All styles are difficult if you want to preform at the elite level, you just show your arrogance and ignorance with your statement Pete.


sure barebow scores are hard, but scores in freestyle are so much higher and yes we use better equipment,but I don`t show up drive`n a horse and buggy either. does anyone even believe the NFAA would still exist if no compounds were allowed,compound free style classes is the reason the NFAA still exists in the USA ? as far as show`n up not anymore to many classes to make everyone so happy and really no true bowhunter class either,so I`d rather spend my money bowhunt`n and fill`n my freezer with deer ,pigs and elk meat shot with bow.so go ahead and shoot your class and feel good and I hope you shoot well this summer. i`ll be grill`n elk steaks again, shoot`n 3d with my bow like about 90 % of us archer`s we won`t show up anymore. I guess why would anyone try to improve or change anything for the majority of the archers in the USA,ya just leave `er the same> old foolish rules and even some classes. as an gun and archery dealer bowhunters still wonder: why when they buy a slider sight why they can`t use it in bowhunter class when yes they bowhunt with it ? me too ? foolish rule probably ? but a barebow archer shoot`n traditional can string walk that`s ok ?really ?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

just ulgy said:


> where did you get the information on agenda items. I'm the director from Wisconsin and have no such informatiom


 here`s one you directors need to change soon > allow the MSAA in Minnesota back into the NFAA , you directors need to do this for the good of archery and change the old foolish rules to allow this state and other state clubs back into the NFAA period.


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## just ulgy (Aug 23, 2012)

Which old foolish rules would you like to change. there is a abundance of old foolish rules


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FS is hard only because the equipment allows people with minimal talent to shoot reasonable scores.
Ban sight tapes, written memorandum and electronic devices then see how you score.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> So freestyle is harder than barebow? What an idiot, once again proving all he does is ***** but not show up to shoot. Put your money where your ignorance is spewing and come shoot with us.


Its harder to beat 100 people than it is 2.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Every division should get a prize:

-More than 50 in a division: get a bowl.
-10-49 in a division: get a cereal bowl.
-1-9 in a division: get a coffee cup.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> All styles are difficult if you want to preform at the elite level, you just show your arrogance and ignorance with your statement Pete.


Was it difficult getting your bowl at the elite level?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> Was it difficult getting your bowl at the elite level?


So since you all think it's so easy, come on out and shoot in the money with us....


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> So since you all think it's so easy, come on out and shoot in the money with us....


US?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> US?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. Tired of the know it alls on here that have no clue. Those who are internet warriors yet never show up to shoot


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

80 or just below in BB Championship at Vegas, 30 some in money BB event at Redding, more in Grass Valley. The money events for BB, where we combine all non sight classes and ages male and female. 

Of course you can just type and puff out your chest like Pete.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Us?










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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

At $90 bucks a pop for a bowl and $40 entry fee how do you justify the above. 


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> At $90 bucks a pop for a bowl and $40 entry fee how do you justify the above.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Instead of being an ass maybe you should read my posts above and for a long time about combining classes and doing away with multiple age groups. Can't help if people decide to change classes to not shoot against me. It happened again this year. I seriously doubt the cost you put on that bowl. Lol. Not a 40 dollar registration. Redding cost me $290. Vegas Championship I think was 275 or 300+. Cinci I think was 75? Add the cost of travel, lodging for 3 and everything else, dang expensive. I could give a crap about the bowl, I was there to break a record. I own quite a few from various styles,. Once again you show your arrogance and lack of understanding to what motivates people to shoot the styles they do. I shoot FS, hold State records in Oly Recurve, BB Recurve, BB compound and BH. However, shooting with Ben Rogers, John Demmer, Rich E, and the bunch of other great people mean more to me than shooting other styles. No need to argue with you, the gauntlet was laid for you to come out and shoot, but like Pete and others, keyboard cowboys never show up


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Go back and read reply #9...


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> Instead of being an ass maybe you should read my posts above and for a long time about combining classes and doing away with multiple age groups. Can't help if people decide to change classes to not shoot against me. It happened again this year. I seriously doubt the cost you put on that bowl. Lol. Not a 40 dollar registration. Redding cost me $290. Vegas Championship I think was 275 or 300+. Cinci I think was 75? Add the cost of travel, lodging for 3 and everything else, dang expensive. I could give a crap about the bowl, I was there to break a record. I own quite a few from various styles,. Once again you show your arrogance and lack of understanding to what motivates people to shoot the styles they do. I shoot FS, hold State records in Oly Recurve, BB Recurve, BB compound and BH. However, shooting with Ben Rogers, John Demmer, Rich E, and the bunch of other great people mean more to me than shooting other styles. No need to argue with you, the gauntlet was laid for you to come out and shoot, but like Pete and others, keyboard cowboys never show up


I wouldn't have any problem shooting with you. I could care less if you beat me, I used to hold my own in BHFS & FSL, but then moved on after those styles started dwindling. I'd rather lose competing than win easy. Set your goal on a record in FS and tell me it's not just as tough as one in BB. You have more gadgetry, but the bar is a lot higher. 

This is part of the problem in the NFAA. 50 guys protecting their style and division. 

I think I'll run for director and we can team up, negotiate, and actually get stuff done. 


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> Its harder to beat 100 people than it is 2.


If the "2" was composed of archers of the caliber of John Demmer, Dewayne Martin, Alan Eagleton, etc., it would be quite hard.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> I wouldn't have any problem shooting with you. I could care less if you beat me, I used to hold my own in BHFS & FSL, but then moved on after those styles started dwindling. I'd rather lose competing than win easy. Set your goal on a record in FS and tell me it's not just as tough as one in BB. You have more gadgetry, but the bar is a lot higher.
> 
> This is part of the problem in the NFAA. 50 guys protecting their style and division.
> 
> ...


Held one in FS for a couple years, but just like all records they are there as a goal for someone to break. Harder? No equal, yes. Think about someone shooting a 299 in Trad class on the NFAA Indoor, or a 300 in Vegas BB. Yep it's been done. Ted shot a 299 last year at NFAA Indoor in BH, Demmer a 299 at sectionals in Trad. Tom D shot a 300 in Vegas BB years ago. Is that tougher than FS, in my opinion those elite BB scores are. Numerous shoot 300 in FS, but only a couple BB ever? By the way my PB FS in just a few weeks of practice was a 300 with 58X on the NFAA target, My PB in competition in BH is a 290 last year at Louisville. All styles are difficult but you get out of it what you put in.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Arcus said:


> If the "2" was composed of archers of the caliber of John Demmer, Dewayne Martin, Alan Eagleton, etc., it would be quite hard.


Jesse Broadwater, Levi Morgan, Tate Morgan, Rob Morgan, Chance Beaubeof, Steve Anderson, Mike Schloesser, Stephan Hanson, George Ryals, Dave Cousins, Reo Wilde, Logan Wilde, Alex Wifler, or any of the dozens of others. 

The difference is that in BB or BH it's no big deal to miss. Just continue making good shots. Miss even once in FS and you're done. 

Quit making it sound like BB or BH "is harder". It's just different than FS, BHFS, etc. 

Now in the big scheme of things, what has having the BB and BH classes brought for the betterment and growth of archery?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> Held one in FS for a couple years, but just like all records they are there as a goal for someone to break. Harder? No equal, yes. Think about someone shooting a 299 in Trad class on the NFAA Indoor, or a 300 in Vegas BB. Yep it's been done. Ted shot a 299 last year at NFAA Indoor in BH, Demmer a 299 at sectionals in Trad. Tom D shot a 300 in Vegas BB years ago. Is that tougher than FS, in my opinion those elite BB scores are. Numerous shoot 300 in FS, but only a couple BB ever? By the way my PB FS in just a few weeks of practice was a 300 with 58X on the NFAA target, My PB in competition in BH is a 290 last year at Louisville. All styles are difficult but you get out of it what you put in.


I've watched teddy shoot quite a few NFAA 300s over the last 27 years. But he's always had the leeway of not having to be "perfect". 


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> Jesse Broadwater, Levi Morgan, Tate Morgan, Rob Morgan, Chance Beaubeof, Steve Anderson, Mike Schloesser, Stephan Hanson, George Ryals, Dave Cousins, Reo Wilde, Logan Wilde, Alex Wifler, or any of the dozens of others.


Perhaps unintentionally, you made my point.




Bobmuley said:


> Quit making it sound like BB or BH "is harder". It's just different than FS, BHFS, etc.


I didn't say that, but I agree with the second part.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Arcus said:


> Perhaps unintentionally, you made my point.


I didn't want to type them all out on my phone.

So here's the thing. In the photo I posted there's six guys going for four bowls. Chuck Cooley (NFAA Pro Chairman) reported that the bowls were just shy of $100. I used $90. Even if you go with a $75 entry fee you're not covering everything (venue, insurance coverage, director's and executive staff expenses, targets, butts and butt repair, curtains, media contracts, etc.). That's not financially feasible.

There is also no prestige to winning a solo category imo. If you don't have to shoot Sunday to win...then it is not competitive.

Solutions?

How about National Record awards? Something besides a bowl to recognize archers that lead the way in a style/division. 

How about lumping age divisions into one to make it competitive? In the results I posted you could have all the BH age division lumped together for a bowl (still only six competitors - but better than 6 going for 4 bowls). Age division records could still be accomplished. Would you (BH/BB Shooters) still show up to shoot if you knew you had to go against Ted or specified others? Would the others show up if they had to shoot against you? In the spirit of equality, we could even combine men and women. 

Some styles need to be lumped together anyhow. Longbow into Trad, whatever you all decide between BB and BH, etc.

I'm all for leaving the kids under 16 alone to encourage growth, but I'd actually like to look at the data (like do we know for sure the success rate of having something like "youth female recurve" recruitment into the YA and adult classes?). If we aren't holding the young recruits (Bowl Chasers) then I wouldn't encourage it any further.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> I didn't want to type them all out on my phone.
> 
> So here's the thing. In the photo I posted there's six guys going for four bowls. Chuck Cooley (NFAA Pro Chairman) reported that the bowls were just shy of $100. I used $90. Even if you go with a $75 entry fee you're not covering everything (venue, insurance coverage, director's and executive staff expenses, targets, butts and butt repair, curtains, media contracts, etc.). That's not financially feasible.
> 
> ...


Read reply #9 again in this thread. Seems we agree for the combining of ages and classes.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rsarns said:


> Read reply #9 again in this thread. Seems we agree for the combining of ages and classes.


And yet it's not done. 

Do you have any other solutions? Does anybody? 

Don't make me call Greg Poole for his opinion.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I really liked the NFAA that I first joined. There were sights and no-sights, male and female. The reason I liked the NFAA then was because they had the handicap system. I started in C class and worked my way to B class. Bought better equipment and worked to A class. The people that wanted to compete with hunting equipment (known as Heavy Equipment) was content to compete in C or B class. Today, many have the need to win and some archers will find a class to win in. They don't care to come in second out of 100. They would much rather come in first out of one. That is why when someone states that they are the State Champion, most competitive archers will ask "out of how many". I am not against the Trad or BB class, I am against the archers that hide in them in order to always win without competition.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

I am just a member, but only Ren got the point. Some of you don't reliaze that the Directors only get around $400 to go,to the meeting and they have to pay the rest out of pocket. No free ride there..So if you have the guts to work for free jump in.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

archer_nm said:


> I am just a member, but only Ren got the point. Some of you don't reliaze that the Directors only get around $400 to go,to the meeting and they have to pay the rest out of pocket. No free ride there..So if you have the guts to work for free jump in.


Or the amount of hours working setting up each tournament etc.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

archer_nm said:


> I am just a member.


Now. Can I ask how long you were State and Sectional director?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

archer_nm said:


> I am just a member, but only Ren got the point. Some of you don't reliaze that the Directors only get around $400 to go,to the meeting and they have to pay the rest out of pocket. No free ride there..So if you have the guts to work for free jump in.


if the NFAA has the guts to change some policies and allow the MSAA back in the NFAA full time and some other state clubs too , I have the guts to be a director but with me there will be some changes made in the NFAA ! >>> Seems some directors and some NFAA members forget the compound bow and the free style classes are the main reason the NFAA still exist and more or most of the money is made because of compounds and freestyle archers over the years ,so the NFAA needs to cater much more to these archers,plus figure out how to get more of the real bowhunters to become members somehow ?


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Bob you may ask. 8 years as NM Director and the last 10 years as the SW Councilman and the only reason I stepped down was that I am moving to the great state of Texas middle of June. There is no free ride in the NFAA as Ren stated above working at every job that was needed to do and most of those days were 12-14 hrs long and no pay. Having to put up with Archers that do nothing but complain and don't want to step up to help. Some in this thread act like they have the answers to solve all but never help to do the real work, just remember if you want to change the system you have to become the system. So turn your self into a politician because that is what it takes and jump on board the NFAA FAST MOVING Train and get to work.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

archer_nm said:


> Bob you may ask. 8 years as NM Director and the last 10 years as the SW Councilman and the only reason I stepped down was that I am moving to the great state of Texas middle of June. There is no free ride in the NFAA as Ren stated above working at every job that was needed to do and most of those days were 12-14 hrs long and no pay. Having to put up with Archers that do nothing but complain and don't want to step up to help. Some in this thread act like they have the answers to solve all but never help to do the real work, just remember if you want to change the system you have to become the system. So turn your self into a politician because that is what it takes and jump on board the NFAA FAST MOVING Train and get to work.


I know you were in it for quite a while. Good luck on your move....and thanks for the work you did do. I'll run for Director...though what I'd really like is to become NFAA Dictator. 




In other news: Why do archer's complain? We are the consumers. 

The infrastructure of the NFAA is part of it's own problem. You need 35 of 50 people to agree on something to get it moved forward. That's too many people making decisions. This is 2017....right? Ren stated that it's only a $400 stipend to attend the meeting. That's $20,000 for a meeting where nothing is likely to happen (because of the 50-man vote). Well, with this being 2017 we could hold a skype meeting for $400 instead of $20,000. A meeting for $400 where nothing is likely to happen is more appealing to me. Not only that, but we could hire a crew for $10,000 to setup/teardown targets and not have to listen to the director's complain about doing thankless work. 

NFAA has been a little slow on the take at times. It wasn't that long ago that it took a week or more to get results posted, promotional material was severely lacking, etc. Information is a lot more and quickly available than what it was a short time ago. I'll thank BC for that. It's the archer's complaints that drive the improvements.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Bobmuley said:


> I know you were in it for quite a while. Good luck on your move....and thanks for the work you did do. I'll run for Director...though what I'd really like is to become NFAA Dictator.
> 
> well said Bob muley ! as our USA President Trump says : its time to drain the swamp ! Bobmuley hope you become the director !
> 
> ...


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

It always seems the archers that shoot freestyle wants do away with all of the other divisions. There are those of us that shoot other divisions and not because of increasing our chance to win a silver bowl but because that's what we like to shoot


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

*My analogy for this is. A person that is in a movie isn't a movie star. It's the people that go to that movie that makes them a star. 
It isn't that all the elite FS bring in the money, it's all the people that make them elite. 

"if the NFAA has the guts to change some policies and allow the MSAA back in the NFAA full time". To me this tells me you have a issue with the NFAA and that maybe if the MSAA, wasn't restricted then you wouldn't have a problem....IMO you have a agenda that over-rides your intent to better the NFAA.*


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Well well someone else has seen through your BS, folks let tell you a little about this person his entire state does not want anything to do with him as he has been a pain in the backside for years. He has an agenda concerning the NFAA but can't get anyone to listen except here on AT. Just saying


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

rogersaddler said:


> There are those of us that shoot other divisions and not because of increasing our chance to win a silver bowl but because that's what we like to shoot


In a nutshell, yes.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Arcus said:


> There are those of us that shoot other divisions and not because of increasing our chance to win a silver bowl but because that's what we like to shoot - In a nutshell, yes.


Roger and Arcus - I challenge you to make it an economically viable venture then. Would you be willing to pay increased entry fees to cover the costs? Or:

If that is what you like to shoot, I don't see why you'd have a problem shooting it in flights...its an open style, welcoming all. Nothing to stop you. Everybody should be happy.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> Roger and Arcus - I challenge you to make it an economically viable venture then. Would you be willing to pay increased entry fees to cover the costs?


You've been around a lot more tournaments than I have, so pardon my ignorance, but tell me what the additional cost is for.


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> Roger and Arcus
> I wonder how many shooters and the indoor nationals shot in other divisions other then freestyle. Yes freestyle is the largest division. I don't have a problem shooting in flights. I guess if we don't shoot freestyle or recurve then we don't matter. We pay for our membership and travel expenses just like everyone else. If they were to drop the bowhunter divisions I wouldn't be shooting anymore NFAA tournaments


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Bobmuley said:


> Roger and Arcus - I challenge you to make it an economically viable venture then. Would you be willing to pay increased entry fees to cover the costs? Or:
> 
> If that is what you like to shoot, I don't see why you'd have a problem shooting it in flights...its an open style, welcoming all. Nothing to stop you. Everybody should be happy.


It is economically viable. There are a lot of trad, BB, BH folks that pay national NFAA dues and don't go to national tournaments. What does the NFAA do for us other than supporting the classes in the nationals. I don't get $80 worth of magazines in a year for sure.

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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

granite14 said:


> It is economically viable. There are a lot of trad, BB, BH folks that pay national NFAA dues and don't go to national tournaments. What does the NFAA do for us other than supporting the classes in the nationals. I don't get $80 worth of magazines in a year for sure.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


More ignorance. The NFAA only gets a portion of your STATE dues. 


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Arcus said:


> You've been around a lot more tournaments than I have, so pardon my ignorance, but tell me what the additional cost is for.


To cover the costs of 1 to 5 people divisions. 



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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

rogersaddler said:


> Bobmuley said:
> 
> 
> > Roger and Arcus
> ...


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

archer_nm said:


> Well well someone else has seen through your BS, folks let tell you a little about this person his entire state does not want anything to do with him as he has been a pain in the backside for years. He has an agenda concerning the NFAA but can't get anyone to listen except here on AT. Just saying


> hey why don`t you get the story correct ! a very small minnesota club had some of their members pull some crap on the MSAA and those few people dislike me and others, but don`t forget when it went to court the judge ruled 100 % in favor of the MSAA,oh by the way it cost some people big money too ! how many different state clubs in the USA did you and others cause this problem with and have kept it a secret over the years ? just how many USA NFAA members were lost from this silly policy? over a 1000 members maybe from just Minnesota. so was it smart for you and the rest of the NFAA to vote these clubs out ? the answer should have been simple NO it was not !


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Bobmuley said:


> More ignorance. The NFAA only gets a portion of your STATE dues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ignorance on your part...I and many others pay state AND national dues, and the national dues are more. 

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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> To cover the costs of 1 to 5 people divisions.


What I mean is, what is the cost of a division?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

granite14 said:


> Ignorance on your part...I and many others pay state AND national dues, and the national dues are more.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Funny. NFAA only gets $35 from me every year, my state is only $25. I just cut a $60 check to CSAA every ear and get my NFAA card. 

Your state may stick it to you but NFAA only gets $35. Notice none of the director or former directors are contesting this. 

If people don't even know where their money goes it's no wonder they can't understand the business side of archery tournaments. 


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Arcus said:


> What I mean is, what is the cost of a division?


Awards. Spending more on awards than the style/division takes in is a losing proposition. IMO they need to recruit more (best option), pay more, or merge into financially viable styles. 


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> Awards. Spending more on awards than the style/division takes in is a losing proposition. IMO they need to recruit more (best option), pay more, or merge into financially viable styles.


Since awards are not important to me and are not my motivation to compete in tournaments, this is where I bow out of this conversation. It's been interesting, though.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Obviously not a NFAA member but this side of the pond we have medals and a returnable trophy for our Nationals, Archers Name and year go on the trophy (downside it can be a pain chasing it up every year, even when you have the winners details), it's nice to see the names of past winners as well. Other option if low numbers in a style then they cannot be National champion unless they shoot within a percentage of National record. IFAA has done this with World/Euro events, you can win the event but cannot be World Champion if numbers are low and you shoot a crap Field score.

Hard to water down the styles when NFAA is affiliated to IFAA and follow their basic shooting styles, think we need to start with the IFAA first, they just added yet another Trad wood bow style :bored: I did hope they would change Bowhunter Rec to a wood non ILF bows and leave the ILF's for Barebow but the created a whole new div.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

I believe the leaders of the IBO must have taken lessons from the NFAA on how to destroy a great Organization. Rule one of the NFAA is to never listen to any members and always bully anyone that might have a good idea. Sounds like the IBO does the same. If the leaders of the IBO needs some advanced training on how to alienate members, they need to contact Bob Borges (NFAA Councilman) from New Mexico. 

HOW TRUE ! this was a reply from a post on 3d archery, but very very true !


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephen Morley said:


> Obviously not a NFAA member but this side of the pond we have medals and a returnable trophy for our Nationals, Archers Name and year go on the trophy (downside it can be a pain chasing it up every year, even when you have the winners details), it's nice to see the names of past winners as well. Other option if low numbers in a style then they cannot be National champion unless they shoot within a percentage of National record. IFAA has done this with World/Euro events, you can win the event but cannot be World Champion if numbers are low and you shoot a crap Field score.
> 
> Hard to water down the styles when NFAA is affiliated to IFAA and follow their basic shooting styles, think we need to start with the IFAA first, they just added yet another Trad wood bow style :bored: I did hope they would change Bowhunter Rec to a wood non ILF bows and leave the ILF's for Barebow but the created a whole new div.


This is the way it was done in British Columbia when I shot there. Less than three in your class, you were moved up a class. Trophies were used again with the name of the winner and year. The winner would keep the trophy for the year and return it. Loved it.

I shot recurve barebow for 19 years (the largest class) until 1974 when I was in a class with only a couple of others. Then I went to Freestyle in order to compete with the largest group.
I love competition, not winning. I love scoring in the top 5 at Nationals in Freestyle more that winning a class with only one competitor. I see archers at the Nationals that wait as long as they can before registering and picking a class that they can win in.

I love competition and would never complain if I was moved up a class for lack of competition. At a state Championship several years ago, the senior class was started for 55 and over. I was the only senior in Freestyle and was told that since I was the only senior, I would have to shoot with the adult class. I was glad they did it. If the NFAA decided that their would only be one class, I would switch equipment and compete in that class and would love it.

Very few NFAA members know what a director has to put out of pocket for a meeting and even fewer members know how anything is decided in the NFAA because that is the way the NFAA likes it. I have always believed that in this computer world, the members have the right to vote on how they feel and the directors should take the results of the votes into consideration at the meetings. We can register for tournaments online, why not have the ability to let the NFAA know how we feel about agendas. I will not be happy with the results, but I would accept the results knowing that we the members had some input into it. The popular vote does not decide who the President will be, but we at least know how the members of our country felt.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Pete I will warn you only once, you are slandering and this will not be tolerated.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

archer_nm said:


> Pete I will warn you only once, you are slandering and this will not be tolerated.


I just printed want another person has posted on archery talk . so did you warn that person too ? ??


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Pete53 said:


> I just printed want another person has posted on archery talk . so did you warn that person too ? ??


 I looked it up for all to see> under 3d archery- post: the IBO death spiral continues/ on page 1


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

So... the idea is to do away with a class because only one or two show up to shoot in that class at nationals. To save $100 you are going to do away with a class. If that decision cause just one member out of every five states to drop out that would be ten members at $35 a head so $350 lost to save $100. That seems silly to me.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

ccwilder3 said:


> So... the idea is to do away with a class because only one or two show up to shoot in that class at nationals. To save $100 you are going to do away with a class. If that decision cause just one member out of every five states to drop out that would be ten members at $35 a head so $350 lost to save $100. That seems silly to me.


 yes it should, to many small classes, some just shoot that class for a trophy or medal and that`s true, there need`s to be some changes.>will it happen ? probably not. as far as lost members ? heck in the past some state clubs were kick out of the NFAA for some very silly rules that was 100`s of members lost. > will anything change ? we all know that answer = NOPE


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

I don`t believe many changes will happen in any of these archery organizations ,and we can all see by replies on this post and some other posts that what many have tried to show positive new different rules and policies on posts and replies where changes are needed some replies just get negative . best way to make changes is either new archery organizations or vote out all existing people who just want to leave policies and rules the same in these archery organizations,kind like what`s gotta happen in the whitehouse too? called drain the swamp ! one thing about archery clubs to remember : without the compound freestyle classes most of these organizations would not be around anymore and the compound bow probably saved archery not any other type bow !


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