# 70 versus 60 pounds for 3D, all else equal - opinions



## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Hey folks,

I was initially thinking that since most of my competitive shooting is under the Archery Canada system that doesn't limit speed, and is in the open class with unknown distances to 50 yards, it would be a great idea to have a 70lb bow to get the highest speed and flattest trajectory possible without over-bowing myself [in other words, I'm not considering more than 70 lbs]. Plus, I would keep my current 60lb Prime Rival for tourneys that are speed-limited to 300 FPS or less. But here's the thing: according to three different arrow programs, my arrow speed from a 60lb Rival using a 300 grn arrow is essentially identical to a 350 grain arrow from a 70lb rival. So, for pure 3D shooting and trying to get a flatter shot, I'm not seeing any good reason to get that 70lb Rival other than wanting it [close to good enough reason, but not quite ]

Sooo...in case I'm missing something, can anyone inform me of what tangible advantage, in the context of 3D, I would have using a 350 grain arrow at 320 FPS versus a 300 grain arrow at essentially the same speed? This would assume the same brand, arrow cross sectional size, vane and nock sizes being the same but spined accordingly. I'm not into hunting [nothing against it, just don't have the time], so any advantages in that context aren't relevant to me.

Thanks and cheers!
L


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

Might be less prone to wind drift, which usually isn't an issue for 3D.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

ThunderEagle said:


> Might be less prone to wind drift, which usually isn't an issue for 3D.


Hmmm...there's a new 3D org in Ontario that will be hosting events at locales that are more in the open [three planned so far at ski facilities], so this could be a decent argument in favour. Heck, I mostly just need to have arguments that will convince my wife, and she's a lawyer, not a physicist  But kidding aside, if there's any truth to that, it's a good consideration.


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

LMacD said:


> Hmmm...there's a new 3D org in Ontario that will be hosting events at locales that are more in the open [three planned so far at ski facilities], so this could be a decent argument in favour. Heck, I mostly just need to have arguments that will convince my wife, and she's a lawyer, not a physicist  But kidding aside, if there's any truth to that, it's a good consideration.


Keep in mind I said might. There are better ways to combat wind drift than going up to a 70# bow, such as shooting a skinny arrow with a high FOC.

Personally, I think you could find better places to spend your money than just getting the same bow with 70# instead of 60# limbs.

I own 3 bows, but I have them all setup to shoot a little different. I have my hunting bow, an indoor target bow, and now an outdoor target bow (a Prime Rival as well). Do I need that? Hell no. Honestly, I'm not real concerned about the speed of my bows. I shoot VAPs for hunting, and used to use them for outdoor target. After a couple of years of that, I'm going to give GT ultralights a try this year, and then I use fat aluminiums for indoor.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

A lot of variables actually come into play here. Heavier poundage can translate to more point weight. Heavier points yes are better in the wind, but let's talk about that 12 ring. When I need to hit it and 3 of my competitors are already in it, I like to have a bulldozer. Another factor to consider is holding weight. I don't perosnally like the feel of a 60% letoff draw cycle and hold because of the style of hinge execution I use. 70 lbs gives me a good holding weight at around 72% let off. The system feels good to me from draw to release. 
As an add on Lmac, our venues might be a little less "in the open" than you might anticipate


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3D distances wind is less a factor. And I'd want a draw weight I could shoot all day and not feel tired.


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## Turfa (Oct 4, 2009)

Keep in mind that those arrow speeds you calculated are the speed out of the bow. While the heavy and light arrows start out the same speed, the heavier arrow will lose less speed down range and therefore will give you a flatter trajectory


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

There are some good thoughts here - thanks for the ideas folks!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Sooner or later you will see the truth, I was getting beaten by one stinking guy in my area over and over by 10 to 16 points every time he showed up. The rest of the time I won and I just couldn't figure out what in the hell he was doing to beat me. 

Finally one day I got to shoot with him and the truth really freaking hurts, he was shooting 276 fps and I was shooting 345 fps. The truth was that he was a real shooter and I sucked, he could guess the targets within one yard most of the time and his execution of the shots was near perfect and I was relying on speed to fix all my problems. 

In the end I became a asa shooter with a speed limit of 299 fps and my bow is in the low 290's, I have learned to judge the targets well enough to start beating him and become a semi pro shooter. 

For me leaving speed behind was a hard thing but in the end it allowed me to grow as a shooter in so many ways.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Padgett said:


> he could guess the targets within one yard most of the time and his execution of the shots was near perfect and I was relying on speed to fix all my problems.


Truth for sure, Padgett, and I sincerely appreciate the advice and anecdote. Simply put, my yardage game sucks, sucks, sucks, and sucks some more, but I'm working really hard on it. If my shooting is a B, my yardage judgement is a D- at best.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

1. Because you don't know the two or three most important pieces to being at least moderately successful in 3D then the heavier draw will be of no benefit in increasing your scores.

2. Because you don't know the pro's and con's of the using additional draw weight the heavier draw weight will not improve _your_ scores. IF you knew this you could answer your own question. 

In Padgett's post above he touches on #1. In item #2 you must know your shot and what you are capable of doing. You can't get the most out of your gear if you don't know your gear. You can't or aren't getting the most from yourself if you don't know how (what it takes) to be competitive in archery.

There are a lot of good 3D archers that could easily reach the next level if they would realize they could learn to shoot AND compete much better. I hear decent 3D'ers frequently commenting that their "yardage was off" but yet I know their shooting is _often _not as good as it could be. I wonder how they can know if it was yardage that caused them to miss high or low when they really have no idea if they made a good shot! I've known and know quite a few guys that let anyone and everyone know that they are very good yardage guessers yet I know they can't shoot a 300 5-spot round! 

Let us say on a 20 target course you "miss" 2 targets to the left, 2 to the right, 2 high and 2 low. You can not accurately say you missed the 2 high and the 2 low because of yardage. Because you missed as many to the left and to the right as you did high and low the high-low misses are more likely due to sloppy shooting.

Food for thought, the best pro 3D'ers are incredibly good at hitting indoor paper x's AND are very good at competing in the indoor spot game. When they shoot a 3D course they _know _when they misjudged the distance to a target and they know how to close out a game. They also know when their gear isn't quite where it needs to be because they know what they are capable of doing.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

LMacD said:


> Truth for sure, Padgett, and I sincerely appreciate the advice and anecdote. Simply put, my yardage game sucks, sucks, sucks, and sucks some more, but I'm working really hard on it. If my shooting is a B, my yardage judgement is a D- at best.


What kind of shooting in your mind grades a "B"?


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Kstigall said:


> What kind of shooting in your mind grades a "B"?


Hmmmmm...That's a good question. I'll be honest that I just grabbed the letter to denote something many levels below A+ [there's A, A- and B+ between them, after all] but well above the "Lard Tunderin' Jaysus, I sure hope I can find the foam!" level. All to say, I don't suggest that my misses are only caused by yardage errors, not at all, but absolutely the large majority of my 8's and 5's are high/low misses and I don't tend towards vertical football-shaped groups when shooting spots. But for sure, I do yank some wide, and drop some low, hence the "B".

As an aside, and not directed toward Kstigall, I must have given the impression in my OP that I'm looking for a magic bullet/quick fix. Nope - not even kinda sorta. I'm simply exploring - i.e. sussing out, asking the questions - ways to ensure I'm not giving away any gear advantages to others while at the same time working hard on my skill set. Nothing more than that.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

- A heavier draw weight on a high let-off bow may give you a higher holding weight that will help you hold steadier. Which means better scores.
- More draw weight may shoot "faster" which will let you shoot a bigger diameter and heavier arrow with more tip weight creating better groups. You end getting similar speed with a "better" scoring arrow.

So the higher draw weight _may _have advantages in 3D but only you can actually determine that because there is truly nothing inherently better about more draw weight. It could just as easily be a negative or ultimately have zero impact on your 3D game. Speed wise you aren't lacking with 60 lbs of draw weight. 

I do know a very talented K50 archer that moved from 60 lbs on a low let-off bow to 65+ lbs on a higher let-off bow in the middle of the season. He found a change in bows allowed him to use a stiffer bigger diameter shaft with more tip weight that ultimately picked up points. At his level a couple of points is huge! He's very skilled at setting up AND shooting a bow so he could benefit from the _slightest _improvement in group size. Few of us would gain anything and in fact might likely lose a bit by pushing the envelop.


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## eclark53520 (Sep 11, 2012)

A heavier arrow at the same speed will hold a flatter trajectory especially at longer distances.


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## whynot7 (Apr 15, 2013)

Is this NASCAR why do they have to limit technology stop the speed laws in archery if you can't afford good equipment shoot traditional


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I can tell that kstigall is a good 3d shooter and he gave you a great look into what is going on. Good luck with your choices and when you find yourself only shooting one arrow at 40 yards per 12 ring because you are hitting your arrows and breaking nocks you know that you are on the right path.

Here is a thought for you, "NIBBLING"

When I am shooting really good and seeing my yardage I find myself nibbling, this is where I am executing really solids shots each and every target and I am seeing the yardage within 2 yards if not one yard each target also. This puts my arrow on the top edge of the 12 ring all day long either hitting it or just nibbling at it on the top edge. 

It is so hard to accept the ones that miss within a 1/8 inch on top but I have learned to see them as a victory because as the day goes along some of them are going to hit the 12.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It wasn't much of a look into how I play the asa 3d game but it was a glimpse into how I do it. What I would suggest is for you to realize that setting up a appropriate bow for the job is one part of the game but then learning how to manage a course and do it in a productive way that gives you a chance to score well is where the difference between a really strong shooter really comes from.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

whynot7 said:


> Is this NASCAR why do they have to limit technology stop the speed laws in archery if you can't afford good equipment shoot traditional


There are many different reasons there are speed limits. 

MANY of us can afford all of the very best archery equipment including releases, arrows, sights, rests, strings/cables and bourbon. MANY of us know that spending all that money isn't the reason we have stood on the podium many times. By the way, I can assure you the speed limits are NOT what has kept YOU off the podium! :becky:


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

I really starting to enjoy conversations that include Kstigall - and there's no sarcasm in that comment. Of course, I always pay close attention anything Padgett has to offer as well  Thank you both for your thoughts on this topic.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have never met kstigall at the asa national shoots but to me he is a guy that has put in the time to learn the 3d game and put himself in a position to be on the podium, this is the key. I am trying to do the same thing and learning how to get rid of all the Garbage in your setup such as stupid equipment or stupid extra poundage or stupid course management or stupid yardage screw ups are all part of building a really strong ability to walk around a really tough asa course and stay in the 10 ring.

For me being alone is a huge mistake because you are your own worst enemy, the only reason I have won into the semi pro class and shot 20 up on a tough asa course is because I found a way to get a seasoned 3d asa semi pro shooter in my area in my local group of shooting buddies. For years I competed against him and got my butt kicked every freaking weekend but once I got him in my group I started seeing all the little things he was doing and I started adding them to my 3d game. It took a full season of still getting my butt kicked but I felt it happening and that next season I started beating him on a more regular basis and that allowed me to again walk around the open a courses at national shoots and get on the podium and almost win texas. 

When I got Blake into my group I was already a strong 60x shooter, becoming a strong 3d guy had nothing to do with my shooting really. Sure it is required to shoot well but the lessons I learned from him at building my 3d game are far more important.


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

lots of good things here folks from the equipment mental side of the game.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Having shot an ASA tournament and getting to meet Kstigall, I can tell you his knowledge is for real as are is comments. He is a great guy. Oh yeah, he won the tourney and I finished last.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

It's getting away from my OP, but as a comment, I wish the ASA tourneys weren't so far from home [Ottawa, Ontario]. However, there's a new org here in Ontario that will have some ASA-like elements [speed limit, 12 ring scoring to name two things] that I think will be great. Keryst it's not even Dec and I'm already pining for spring to get here...argh...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

vito9999 said:


> Having shot an ASA tournament and getting to meet Kstigall, I can tell you his knowledge is for real as are is comments. He is a great guy. Oh yeah, he won the tourney and I finished last.


Thanks for the compliments................ and honestly I got real lucky the first day! 

I hope to see you at some tournaments next season. Once you get used to the game you'll do fine.


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

whynot7 said:


> Is this NASCAR why do they have to limit technology stop the speed laws in archery if you can't afford good equipment shoot traditional


One in every crowd. So if you are poor you have to shoot traditional.


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