# How heavy is too heavy



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Without stating the obvious how heavy is too heavy on your target rig?

Currently with thanks to Padgett and too many other guys on here to mention I'm experiencing some of the best float pattern I ever had!! I was a sufferer of the old pin dropping low syndrome and having to fight to get it back up, some said target panic but I knew it wasn't because it was different with each different bow I shot. At the moment I can hold the pin steadily in the 10 ring on a 80cm face at 50 meters. most of the time the arrow hits the 10!!

Problem starts when I start to get tired, when shooting practice ends I shoot 6 arrows at 50m and usually hit between 58-60, I can hold this up for about 3-4 more ends before my bow shoulder starts to get tired and the float opens up. Bear in mind I'm shooting one end after the other not alternate ends as you would in a competition.

I'll admit I'm not shooting as much as I'd like to probably only 4 hrs a week total, I can increase this as the evenings are now getting longer, PHEW!!

Bow is weighing in at 8.1 lbs so the question is should I just stop whimpering and man up shoot more and get used to the weight or is this too heavy and do I need to make it lighter??

I tried lessening the stab weights in proportion but float went crazy

What are other target guys rigs weighing in at??

Damien


----------



## bllykyd (Aug 15, 2012)

I am still messing around with stabs and weights. What's really hard is there isn't a base to start out with, everything leads to my favorite saying, personal preference. But with the pin dropping low from target could be from too much weight on the back/side bar. Jack Wallace said it in a bow junky video that pin movement up and down is back weight, side to side movement is front weight. How much you need, only you can figure out by experimenting. Add some or lose some and see what works for you. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


----------



## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

Outdoor rig is 8.3# and indoor rig is apx 9# holding weight plays a role in mass weight. I have found that for me it will be close to 40% of holding weight. I try to rig my junk up to hold 20-22#. 

Blue X


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, rig weight is very dependent on holding weight. if you have allot of let-off, and your not holding much at full draw, it gets hard to set up the dynamics that help hold up the weight of the bow itself. consequently, your float will be large and change from day to day or even shot to shot.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You didn't note how much and for how long you've had the weight. Throw it on, regardless that it improved things, it takes time to adjust to the weight. And then time between shots should be at least 15 to 17 seconds.


----------



## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

Mine always end up between 7-9Lbs. It really just depends on how the bow holds and what the float looks like. Shoot it for awhile before making any adjustments. You will need to build up strength.

I found that blank bailing indoors almost everyday while working on form and release technique helped build up the shooting and holding muscles fast.


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Do you have a low bob in your sight picture that doesn't seem to want to go away? Does it become more apperent as you expand through the shot? 

Mass weight is all determinant on holding weight and dl. You need holding weight to get a decent sight picture with a correctly weighted set of bars- when you get into outdoors with wind this becomes even more important. Depending on the platform you are using you can cheat the holding weight a touch by running a touch short dl and keeping an aggressive shot.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

N7709K said:


> Do you have a low bob in your sight picture that doesn't seem to want to go away? Does it become more apperent as you expand through the shot?


Would you mind expanding on this concept more deeply?


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks for all the replys guys!!

Got to do about 1.5hrs solid shooting today at 30m, I picked 30m to squeeze in as much arrows in the time allowed, started off Xing most shots but as I got tired mostly mid to low 10s with four 9s out of 30 arrows. I'm really happy with the hold and float. DL feels good but I'm sure some tweaking could be done!!

N7709K as I get tired I do get a low bob, normally I draw the bow level and come down from the top of the gold, float mostly dropped into a low 10 then settles mid 10 and usually my shot goes off a couple of seconds later. 

Sonny I'm must check and see how long I allow between shots, even today I noticed less fatuige than last time a shot a couple of days ago so I'm getting some strength and stamina back!!

Would a picture or video help any??

Thanks again

Damien


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

If the low bob/drift is apparent the most common cause is shoulder misalignment. When the front shoulder is high your dot will drift low as you expand through the shot. The bow side is not in a position to expand and push forward through the shot.


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

N7709K said:


> If the low bob/drift is apparent the most common cause is shoulder misalignment. When the front shoulder is high your dot will drift low as you expand through the shot. The bow side is not in a position to expand and push forward through the shot.



Tks Jacob, 

Always thought my front shoulder was good, I set it low and sink it back into the socket-well at least I thought I did, I'll look at tomorrow evening if I can squeeze in a few shots. 

Great info

Damien


----------



## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

Damo, You're a big guy - you can take the weight! Man up.  

Seriously though, I've had the same issue. Good advise above about going a touch short on DL and maintaing an aggressive shot. You could also look at nocking point. I've found that the best nocking point doesn't necessarily give you the best tear through paper but gives you the best float pattern at full draw.

More arrows rarely hurt though.


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

my Field season just started....and started with the low pin position
but I have a 57ish % letoff (57.8/25.5).....
this big 25.5 holding weight was working good for many days but the pin bouncing came back...
then I loaded lot of weight to rear and this was working good for several days and the pin started bouncing again....
then, I was playing a good half day with weight distribution (both my pockets full with washers ), same kind a OK for several days only....
my DL was good, but still I shortened the d-loop and my pin stop wondering around....this my latest...
but...I am in Field range....
my "floor" is never level or planar.....but, I checked my stabilizer balancing/pin float on the FITA range, it is off big time....
so you have to play and find yourself what works...


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Tuning dl and float to the game at hand comes in handy... Couple twists in or out of the string will sway how things will go. 


Are your shoulders relaxed(both of them, but bow side especially), or do you hold tension in the bow side while keeping it down and in? Visual would help in this case with determining if shoulders are an issue... Or seeing of the cause is something else obvious


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Does shoulder look ok??


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

do you have any pictures from behind, its hard to tell from those...


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

These any good?


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

wrong angle.. my bad. I need some showing your shoulder height/level from your back(left of the shooter)


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Ok let try this, got my 7 year old to tale the pics!!


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

your dot holds very tight on the middle but it will take a big jump out, usually low? groups are very tight but misses are big misses?

From those pics your shoulder is high; but that is due to being pulled in and not down and relaxed.

in the third pic i have highlited what im looking for/at with shoulder position. there will be a "dip" when the shoulder is down and relaxed.


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

N7709K said:


> your dot holds very tight on the middle but it will take a big jump out, usually low? groups are very tight but misses are big misses?
> 
> From those pics your shoulder is high; but that is due to being pulled in and not down and relaxed.
> 
> in the third pic i have highlited what im looking for/at with shoulder position. there will be a "dip" when the shoulder is down and relaxed.



Thanks Jacob, I see what you mean from your picture. My float and hold are excellent with this current set up and weight. 8oz up front and 24 on the rear. 
I wouldn't say I have big jumps out but more slow drop down into the low 10/9, usually as I get tired. Groups are good misses usually are low & right 9s, with the very occasional 8 when I have a total brain fart!!lol

I'm at the club tomorrow evening I'll do some work and try and get the shoulder just right

Tks!!


----------



## Greenjoytj (Aug 10, 2013)

If you were shooting an 8.1lb rifle most people would be complaining about the weight. If it was a 8.1lb handgun it would be shot with a shooting stick for support maybe rifle would be on sticks too. I ditched my 6lb compound because of the weight. I really like my Martin Savanah at 1 pound 1 ounce its a nice carry. Good luck training up to hold a boat anchor at arms length for a long time.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Greenjoytj said:


> If you were shooting an 8.1lb rifle most people would be complaining about the weight. If it was a 8.1lb handgun it would be shot with a shooting stick for support maybe rifle would be on sticks too. I ditched my 6lb compound because of the weight. I really like my Martin Savanah at 1 pound 1 ounce its a nice carry. Good luck training up to hold a boat anchor at arms length for a long time.


And in what manner do remarks such as these positively contribute to the discussion?? Of course, everyone has the option to shoot and compete with whatever platform they wish; not everyone, in fact, it is a minority now, who choose to compete with a longbow...


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

montigre said:


> And in what manner do remarks such as these positively contribute to the discussion?? Of course, everyone has the option to shoot and compete with whatever platform they wish; not everyone, in fact, it is a minority now, who choose to compete with a longbow...


More politely put than I would have replied....


----------



## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

I set it low and sink it back into the socket-

here in lies your problem -
yes this creates a calm sight picture 
it however does not create a consistant shot
push the shoulder to acheive bone on bone , do not collapse the shoulder

there is actually a name for what jacob speaks of 

your draw length is too long - this is causing you to overextend and over compensate with your arm and grip - 
You can shoot very well most of the time with this form - however as you know it will forsake you 

your tiller seems off a fair amount ?

in short your bow shoulder is collapasing into your body - no bueno 


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1960217&d=1401135757


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

dua lam pa said:


> I set it low and sink it back into the socket-
> 
> here in lies your problem -
> yes this creates a calm sight picture
> ...


How can one achieve bone on bone by pushing out with the shoulder-surely this brings more muscle into the equasion??

Re Draw length i can reduce but when ive done this before i struggle to get a consistant anchor, unless i have a dloop a little over 1" long. How much off do i look, thought i had draw length nailed!!


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes, it looks like your DL is spot on--you just need to relax that bow shoulder a bit to let it settle down into the socket. :wink:


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I see do as short; head is tilted in slightly and shoulders high....


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

I would've thought if anything, short myself but better short than long. 
Had one of our staff guys try the bow today, he thinks I'm holding silly weight, reckons it's like shooting a 60 lb recurve!! I have some 70% mods that are slightly longer gonna give em a go over the weekend

Cheers all for the valuable input!!


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

to get your shoulder down and relaxed your dl will need to be let out; as it sits now if you expand and push through the shot you'll 1) fight keeping the dot in the middle, 2) you'll either push the string away from your face or have to keep leaning into it, and 3) you'll push your dot out the bottom due to alignment angle.

short with high holding weight works rather well; and you can get your dot to virtually sit with the right balance on the bars. When you drop the shoulders, keep them relaxed and bring the upper half into better alignment your float won't necessarily make a drastic improvement but the quality of shots and the overall spread in groups will improve. if you are going to make form changes make them up close on a blank bale and get the changes down before trying to score.


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks Jacob, appreciate your time and sound advice!!


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Added 1/4" to the draw length. Allowed me to drop the shoulder lower, it'll take some getting used to but feels good so far, groups are nice!! Only downside is my 22 nano pros are now too short so back to vaps for a while!!

































Constructive critique welcome!!


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

are your groups usually taller than they are wide?


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

N7709K said:


> are your groups usually taller than they are wide?


Lol nope it just the picture is 180deg off. It's the way it uploaded.


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

so a tendency to fade high right? or low left?


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

N7709K said:


> so a tendency to fade high right? or low left?


Prob a tendency to fade right. Here's a better picture.


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Sh#t it's the wrong way too. ***!!


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

do you work the back half of the shot more than both halves in tandem?


----------



## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

N7709K said:


> do you work the back half of the shot more than both halves in tandem?


I do tend to concentrate more on the release/ back. I pull into the wall and the release usually fires 3-5 seconds later, Tend to set my shoulder and just hold solid, don't do the push pull that some guys do.


----------

