# Hinges...



## N7709K

I think i managed to get off two shots the first time I played with a hinge before I popped it early and took a face full of fist and release... I'd like to say that is the only time ive done that... but sadly that isn't the case. When i learned how to somewhat shoot a hinge I had nothing to go off of; just picked it up and figured it out. that said I wouldn't recommend that route to anyone; too many hours and weeks of frustration, lots of bad habits you have to break later, and a drawer full of releases. Now that i've addressed the issues i've had with a hinge and have the system down here I how I go through selecting a new release and some tricks to get them working a little better.

when you're looking at a release to get there are a few things to keep in mind: 1) the physical weight of the release (more or less what material is it made from), 2) number of fingers, 3) finger bed design and type. there are some more things but these are the major ones....

1) physical weight.

This is a big one; heavier releases are both a gift and a curse (similar to heavy bows). With the added mass of them you can set them very light and use the weight of the release aided with a bit of a push to pop the release... not saying it doesn't work, but having a hinge set hot isn't beneficial when the pressure gets put on you. If the shooter commits to how they learn the release a heavier (brass) is going to provide a more forgiving shot and a slightly smoother break; the added weight in the hand requires more force to move so it tends to track is a linear path a little better. The main benefit is that the release hand stays more relaxed with the added mass weight; you feel it against your fingers better and you don't feel like its "fragile". Brass does have a tacky feel compared to ano alu so it doesn't slide around as much in the hand... but you can change the feel a couple different ways (tape, polishing, wearing the release in[tarnish] and how the calluses ride in the release from shooting).

2) number of fingers.

the fewer the fingers the harder to cheat. pretty much that simple; 4 fingers work and work well, but I wouldn't suggest learning on one. 

3) finger bed design.

This is a big one; the entire feel of the release changes, the forgiveness changes, how well the release informs the shooter that the shot has stalled out, etc all depends on the shape of the finger beds. There are flat finger beds (stans, truballs, scott backspin... ) and round finger beds (scotts, carters, and a couple others that I just can't remember). Round finger beds feel better in the hands; they have more of a comfort to them. Flat finger beds require a more uniform and diligent release hand when learning as the flats want to sit square to the pads of the fingers, they don't always feel as good (its one of those after you put 50k shots through a release you develop a memory of it in the hand and it doesn't feel right shooting anything else) but they lead to a higher quality of shot- they do take a bit longer to learn on however. I have and still do modify my releases with a little custom work to best fit me; i'll change the transition of the radius to the bed if there is a hard edge, i'll tape off the ring finger, etc...

When you find a release that works and you shoot well, stick with it for a while... new and shiney doesn't beat out something that you have mastered and know inside and out. I've been shooting the same release for 3 years before I picked up something new to try out- actually ordered it this week. That said, if you get into a situation where you cannot get past cheating the release or a mental block with the release process its time to change to a new release that you haven't played with. 

Settle on one shot for your hinge; commit to making every shot with it the same... yes its not always possible to shoot every shot with a hinge exactly the same and you WILL end up "cheating" some due to weather conditions and other things (drawing back with 5 seconds on the clock is one of them). I prefer a very relaxed technique- in short how griv teaches, it takes some time to master, but it pays off.

With most hinges mark the outside of the moon adjacent to the neck of the release and use that as a reference for setting the release hotter or colder; also just crack the set screw loose enough to just slide the moon, it will make the process go a bit smoother. 

I tape my releases (ring finger) with athletic tape or hockey tape; gives a little different feel and for me "cushions" the finger and I pull through the shot.

I'll keep this updated as the season progresses and I get training and shooting....


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## ron w

hard to duck a punch that has a 60 lb. head start !.


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## Padgett

Good stuff, for those guys who haven't made the jump to becoming a hinge shooter all of the stuff that he put in his thread are what make hinge shooting special. There is no skill involved in drawing back a wrist strap and just pulling the trigger but with a hinge there are lessons to be learned in ever aspect of the shooting process and each and every one of them adds up to being able to call yourself a hinge shooter.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> hard to duck a punch that has a 60 lb. head start !.


I liked the hits that had me on my knees and figuring how I got there. No pain, just dizzy sort of


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## ron w

I never punched myself that hard,...but i have bled from them !. it's a "right of passage" for most hinge shooters !.


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## TDS

ron w said:


> I never punched myself that hard,...but i have bled from them !. it's a "right of passage" for most hinge shooters !.


No pain no gain I guess  I can hardly wait for the pain of the hinge. Let's see $ 80.00- $100.00 will get you bloody.


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## N7709K

i've never been bit hat hard... i've split my lip but thats about the worst of it. Shooting a hinge anyway


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## Rick!

TDS said:


> No pain no gain I guess  I can hardly wait for the pain of the hinge. Let's see $ 80.00- $100.00 will get you bloody.


Hinge lesson 1: you will punch yourself in the face, once.
Hinge lesson 2: don't draw in line with your face.
Hinge lesson 3: draw on target. This saves range light fixtures or sending one 200yds into the woods.


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## TDS

So, will a safety cheat the correct draw cycle and the back tension release? I shot my first cheater (Carter Honey) release this weekend and liked it but sounds like they don't work the same as the ones that hurt you. I also attempted to use a guys Scott Longhorn Pro but couldn't draw it back without the clicker going off mid draw. Since it wasn't mine I didn't want to mess with the settings.


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## RCR_III

If you study the mechanicals of how the hinge works, and set them up correctly, there's not a need for a safety and you will be less likely to ever punch yourself with one. Build a "string bow", a piece of string made to your draw length and d loop length to practice with. This will help you with setting the speed of the release and getting used to execution. You can also hold the string short and infront of you to visually see what your hand and hinge are doing throughout execution.


TDS said:


> So, will a safety cheat the correct draw cycle and the back tension release? I shot my first cheater (Carter Honey) release this weekend and liked it but sounds like they don't work the same as the ones that hurt you. I also attempted to use a guys Scott Longhorn Pro but couldn't draw it back without the clicker going off mid draw. Since it wasn't mine I didn't want to mess with the settings.


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## montigre

You do not need a safety to shoot a hinge or to learn how to shoot a hinge. Using a safety simply adds an unnecessary step to your process that you have to learn along with learning your process for shooting the hinge. 

Is it possible that you may whack yourself a time or two during the learning phase, probably so, but that is no reason to avoid a hinge or avoid learning one without a safety. How many times have new shooters whacked their arm with the bow string and learned to make the proper form adjustments so it did not happen again--same thing with a hinge. 

Start off shooting it off a training rope until you're comfortable and the chances of getting a fat lip go down exponentially when you transition to shooting it with your bow...


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## montigre

Haha...RCR was typing the same time as me with the same info....great minds....:wink:


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## ron w

in my very first tournament in 1976, the Milwaukee sentinel Sports show, with a Thomas release....a type of "back tension trainer". I had a shot get away on me, just as I started to pull on the string. the arrow went wobbling through the air in about an 8 foot high arch and landed somewhere in my target, but couldn't see where. I figured that was it , there's 5 points gone!. 
at the time , it was normal to have a buddy with a spotting scope sitting behind the line, calling your shots for you. I looked back at him and he was giving me the thumbs up, with his jaw hanging open!. I thought to my self, "oh yah, that was a good arrow". when we got down the target to score the end, I couldn't believe my eyes....that arrow was in the bulls eye !. 
from that point on, I learned the value of properly addressing the target on each and every, shot as part of your shot routine.


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## RCR_III

Haha, yea that was pretty much identical information, that's crazy we timed that perfect.


montigre said:


> Haha...RCR was typing the same time as me with the same info....great minds....:wink:


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## RCR_III

Stories like this are fun to hear. At the time they probably aren't as fun though. Great lesson in part from it too!


ron w said:


> in my very first tournament in 1976, the Milwaukee sentinel Sports show, with a Thomas release....a type of "back tension trainer". I had a shot get away on me, just as I started to pull on the string. the arrow went wobbling through the air in about an 8 foot high arch and landed somewhere in my target, but couldn't see where. I figured that was it , there's 5 points gone!.
> at the time , it was normal to have a buddy with a spotting scope sitting behind the line, calling your shots for you. I looked back at him and he was giving me the thumbs up, with his jaw hanging open!. I thought to my self, "oh yah, that was a good arrow". when we got down the target to score the end, I couldn't believe my eyes....that arrow was in the bulls eye !.
> from that point on, I learned the value of properly addressing the target on each and every, shot as part of your shot routine.


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## Fury90flier

ron w said:


> hard to duck a punch that has a 60 lb. head start !.


yea, hard to duck but if you don't draw to your face and that won't happen.



Safety? Yea, I have one on my Carter Solution 2...hate it. At first I really liked it but once I got comfortable with how to pull...all it did was exactly as said above- got in the way.


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## N7709K

if you are diligent while learning and put the time in on a string and then close bale you probably won't ever have one get away from you. When you are conscious of the process and paying attention to the steps it is harder to slip up; I know i've hit myself WAY more after mastering a hinge and just loosing track of what I was doing than while learning.

If you learn to draw with all the fingers on the release and don't stack all the weight on the index and thumb you aren't really at that much of a risk... The angle of the release during the draw and if that angle is changing is where problems arise; keep things "static" so to speak in the release hand and you'll be golden. 

If you have a shot trainer (morin) or draw the string bow between the thumb and index until the knot hits you can get some practice without any worry about the release tripping and catching yourself in the face.


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## Fury90flier

for you guys that don't know hinge shooting...do this.

Pull only with your index finger and thumb on the peg and no more. It's when you try to treat a hinge like a thumb release and "fist" the grip that you'll run into issues.


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## Padgett

Fury90flier, I hate to disagree with you but pulling the bow with the index finger and the thumb only opens a huge can of worms that many shooters never find their way out of. It should be avoided 100% of the time and never be a option to getting a bow drawn with a hinge. Any time I am going to try a hinge I spend 5 minutes setting it up with my hinge set up routine and then I shoot it properly but I absolutely will now just draw with my index finger and thumb.


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## N7709K

Setup the shot so there is weight on all the fingers but a TOUCH more on the index; the thumb is gonna have as much weight as the middle or ring finger, you DO NOT draw with the thumb. Fingers are relaxed and the release is sitting square to the finger beds; the little pressure on the peg from the thumb is more than enough to make sure the release will not fire during the draw.


















When you reach anchor and settle in, thumb comes off the peg and the shot progresses. there isn't the careful moment of starting to transfer weight and get comfortable without accidentally letting go of the thumb peg, or adding too much pressure too quickly to the ring or middle fingers. As the shot progresses the hand stretches and the release fires, if the shot hangs up/stalls out all it takes to stop the process no matter how far into the shot is putting the thumb back on the peg and applying very slight pressure.


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## SonnyThomas

This works. Just have long enough, tie knots until draw length is right. Doug Springer, Stanislawski, said when you're doing it right string handle and will launch almost across the room. I was doing it. Still didn't help, but I got the jest of the matter.


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## Rick!

Padgett said:


> Fury90flier, I hate to disagree with you but pulling the bow with the index finger and the thumb only opens a huge can of worms that many shooters never find their way out of. It should be avoided 100% of the time and never be a option to getting a bow drawn with a hinge. Any time I am going to try a hinge I spend 5 minutes setting it up with my hinge set up routine and then I shoot it properly but I absolutely will not just draw with my index finger and thumb.


What is the very first step you take once your brain says "let down?"
Right, you curl your index finger and re-engage your thumb and "reverse draw".
Drawing with a slight bias on the index finger is not a bad habit IMO.
If you draw with an index finger bias and then jam that finger into your jaw to "anchor", then that would be a bad habit.


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## EPLC

TDS said:


> So, will a safety cheat the correct draw cycle and the back tension release? I shot my first cheater (Carter Honey) release this weekend and liked it but sounds like they don't work the same as the ones that hurt you. I also attempted to use a guys Scott Longhorn Pro but couldn't draw it back without the clicker going off mid draw. Since it wasn't mine I didn't want to mess with the settings.


IMO there is nothing wrong with the safety hinge type releases... and there is another benefit aside from not knocking yourself out. My Sweet Spot II has a pivoting head with the release sear built in it. You can set it either slow, fast or anywhere in between without worry that it will change based on your release hand position. With regular hinge releases my subconscious would find the edge of the sear within a short time and I would then freeze. With the SSII I can not find the edge because the release stays slow as I want regardless on my hand position. I've been shooting this release for over 8 years w/o any issues. (Of course I do have other issues )


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## N7709K

I'm not saying it doesn't happen as a knee-jerk reaction... but the index shouldn't need to become tense to stop the progression of the shot, the slight pressure of the thumb onto the thumb peg and the change in angle of the release is enough to stop the shot. 

Some releases with safeties are just fine- some leave a bit to be desired. I'm not a fan of the sweet spot; because of how the safety unlocks the head and allows it to rotate freely you loose consistency in the release. If the release hand doesn't come back EXACTLY the same every time the speed of the release will never be the same the starting angle of the handle is different (I understand that is the ultimate goal to get the hand to be exactly the same every shot; but that doesn't really happen.... With the independent speed for the sear on the sweet spot technically the speed will be "the same" every shot, but the angle of the handle will change and that ultimately influences the speed at which the release fires.) and that leads to consistency issues.


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## bseltzer

SonnyThomas said:


> I liked the hits that had me on my knees and figuring how I got there. No pain, just dizzy sort of


Dude...!!! You one crazy fella :set1_punch:

You know, there's no concussion protocol in archery. If there were, I might pursue something safer. Like long sword fencing...


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## MikeR

EPLC said:


> IMO there is nothing wrong with the safety hinge type releases... and there is another benefit aside from not knocking yourself out. My Sweet Spot II has a pivoting head with the release sear built in it. You can set it either slow, fast or anywhere in between without worry that it will change based on your release hand position. With regular hinge releases my subconscious would find the edge of the sear within a short time and I would then freeze. With the SSII I can not find the edge because the release stays slow as I want regardless on my hand position. I've been shooting this release for over 8 years w/o any issues. (Of course I do have other issues )


I agree with this, the SSII is an excellent release for a person, not only learning hinge techniques safely, also for competing. There are very few hinges I have not owned. Every one of them, I spent considerable time perfecting the technique to maximize my consistency. I have not found a hinge that I could not shoot well consistently. I am currently shooting a backspin, but I can shoot the same score with my SSII. I personally would not want to give a standard hinge to a youth or young adult with the knowledge that they would eventually bust a lip or tooth. There is no need to get them to full draw with tensed up muscles when they can have a balance draw and relaxed start to the shot process. The pluses of having a safety out weigh the negatives. A seasoned hinge shooter may want lose the safety, but for many people it may not be a good decision.


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## Fury90flier

Padgett said:


> Fury90flier, I hate to disagree with you but pulling the bow with the index finger and the thumb only opens a huge can of worms that many shooters never find their way out of. It should be avoided 100% of the time and never be a option to getting a bow drawn with a hinge. Any time I am going to try a hinge I spend 5 minutes setting it up with my hinge set up routine and then I shoot it properly but I absolutely will now just draw with my index finger and thumb.


for new shooters pulling with index finger and thumb is a must. Otherwise they'll pull more with the other side of the pivot point and fire the release...the result is hitting themselves in the mouth


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## N7709K

Only if they are learning to draw incorrectly...


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## Fury90flier

you're assuming they drew correctly before. Many are coming from thumb releases and tend to either fist the draw or pull more on the wrong side of the hinge.


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## N7709K

I said learning- not transitioning... Speaking as a coach: when you move a shooter to a hinge the process starts fresh. Learning down low and how to set the hand is paramount; skipping that step allows for lots of problems.


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## Fury90flier

I see...definitely a difference in learning and transitioning. I guess I was skipping over the transitioning phase.

interesting this topic is coming up this evening. Shooting tonight I was noticing that on one release, stan element, I needed more pressure than my other release (zenith) on the outside fingers to get a smooth draw, otherwise I was bouncing off the rest..much different than the Zenith...of course the element isn't a hinge either.


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## N7709K

For those saying that safeties are the way to go, what are the benefits you see that other than you cannot accidentally fire the release during the draw? honest question here...

if the time/steps are taken to learn how to setup and draw with a hinge before you integrate the release into the bow having a premature fire is more or less a non issue. None of the coaches I work with recommend learning with a safety; they may have a shooter use a release with a safety(more commonly a resistance release like the evo or element) but not to learn on. I can see where handing someone a release and saying go shoot it would be beneficial.... but that doesn't do anyone justice..


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> For those saying that safeties are the way to go, what are the benefits you see that other than you cannot accidentally fire the release during the draw? honest question here...
> 
> if the time/steps are taken to learn how to setup and draw with a hinge before you integrate the release into the bow having a premature fire is more or less a non issue. None of the coaches I work with recommend learning with a safety; they may have a shooter use a release with a safety(more commonly a resistance release like the evo or element) but not to learn on. I can see where handing someone a release and saying go shoot it would be beneficial.... but that doesn't do anyone justice..


I can only speak to the TRU Ball Sweet Spot. This release has a head that swings freely with the safety engaged. The sear is built into the head so the speed of the release remains constant, and is not dependent on hand position. With the standard hinge I would find the edge of the sear after a short period and then freeze. I haven't had this issue with this release. Now a hinge with a clicker may also resolve this as well.


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## devinhal

Hing releases and Thumb triggers are a big step for any archery and can be scary at first. I shot a wrist release for over 4 years before I switched to a thumb. The first few days shooting a thumb I was nervous and griped the release too tight, touched the trigger and punched myself. Shot that for two years and had a few times where I relaxed my release hand to the point that the bow pulled my release out and sent it flying down range. I have done this three times now. I got serious into target this year and have been shooting a back tension for about 8 months. Two fat lips and lots of laughter in the range has taught me the lessons of the draw cycle. To this day anytime someone wants to try and switch to a hand release from wrist we warn them of the good chance of a humbling experience. But these are the moments in your archery carrier that you never forget and laugh about after a good day of shooting with friends. 
I prefer a hinge with a clicker and no safety, it simplified the process for me and has given me the best results out of the hinges I have tried including the truball safeties.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> I liked the hits that had me on my knees and figuring how I got there. No pain, just dizzy sort of





bseltzer said:


> Dude...!!! You one crazy fella :set1_punch:
> 
> You know, there's no concussion protocol in archery. If there were, I might pursue something safer. Like long sword fencing...


Wasn't joking. Here's the story; Got this Sweet Spot (safety). It was one of the very first out, picked up at the ATA show (and I ain't telling). It wouldn't set right. It would either go off when I hit the safety or wouldn't go off, no in between. Sold it for $50.00 and the guy says he could get it to set right. Well, he didn't get to set right. He sold it for $50.00
So I'm at the Farm/Sports Department store with archery department. Here's this TRU Ball Gold Hinge with price tag of $27.00. Whoa! I asked if the price was right and the attendant said, Yes. I bought it. Yeah, mis-marked. Should have been $72.00. Okay, no one around my neck of the woods knew anything about hinge releases, so it was learn as you go like 7709 gave in his initial post. Got popped a couple of times and lived. Started making headway and this one time I drew back and wham, the lights went out. Didn't have the slightest idea what happened, just on my knees kind of stunned. The arrow was in the target, still had the bow and release in my hands. Shook the cob webs out of my head and tried again and again I was on my knees kind of stunned. Well, I had enough of that. That weekend was a local 3D. Sold it for $10 the first day. 
Since then I have had 5 or 6 hinge releases. I still have 3 Stans, a MagMicro Trio, a Deuce, and a BlackJack. And I R lucky. Guy needs some money. Brand new Stan Deuce still in package, $40.00. A new Blackjack and a new Onyx, $100.00. He named the price and I bought them. 3 years ago I used the Deuce once in Indoor competition and shot a 299 and 49 Xs. In practice I'd still launch one unexpectedly, not smacking myself. No confidence, never used it and any other hinge in competition again. Now, I do use one to practice, but just to keep me sort of honest using my two TRU Ball ST360s.
Got all the articles I could get my hands, John Dudley, Griv (and can't find), Padgett here on AT. A hour talk with Doug Springer of Stanislawski. Get something going and next, it falls to pieces.

Hinges and thumb releases. I have shot my absolute best using a Scott Mongoose single caliper release, 3D, Indoor, Outdoor and Field.


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## ArcherXXX300

So you're all telling me you draw with even weight on all 3-4 fingers with a hinge? I draw with the majority of the weight on the index and thumb, but I do have pressure on the other fingers....everyone I know says my releases are slow but they really aren't that slow. I only punched myself in the face with a hinge one time and that was because I had a scott backspin with a super short d-loop and when I went to draw the bow I pivoted my hand about 30* or so counterclockwise (I'm right handed) and the hook simply slipped out of the loop. Now....forgetting I shoot a hinge a majority of the time I punched myself in the face with a scott exxus numerous times.


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## N7709K

I have the same amount or pressure on the index as on the middle and only slightly less on the ring finder during the draw with just a slight bit on the thumb peg. Its not even between the three but I don't load up on the index and thumb. I can draw the release without a peg if I want to; not my thing and not something i recommend but its easily doable.


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## ArcherXXX300

N7709K said:


> I have the same amount or pressure on the index as on the middle and only slightly less on the ring finder during the draw with just a slight bit on the thumb peg. Its not even between the three but I don't load up on the index and thumb. I can draw the release without a peg if I want to; not my thing and not something i recommend but its easily doable.


That's how I draw...pressure on ring finger but by no means in balance with the thumb, index, and middle. I'd say I draw with the index, thumb, middle and some pressure on the ring finger but not much.


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## N7709K

I have more pressure on the ring finger during the draw than on the thumb, a lot more. The thumb is just a "safety" so to speak, enough pressure to act as a precautionary tool but not enough to really aid in drawing the bow. its like a 19lb/19lb/17lb/5lb breakdown across the fingers with the thumb having very little


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## Mahly

Years ago, when I started learning to shoot a hinge, I read up on them here (AT).
I heard SO many horror stories of people punching themselves in the face that I made SURE it never happened.
Not having anyone to really show me the right way, I learned to wrap my thumb around the hinged draw only with my thumb and finger.
I did beat my horrible case of TP, and learned how to shoot other releases much better. Eventually, my hinge broke, and I got a great deal on a Thumb trigger release, and I forgot about hinges for the better part of a decade.
Now this year I have gotten back on the bandwagon, I am working on doing it the "right way". 
Old habits die young, but I think it would be best to learn to draw with more even finger pressure.

Looking for my "Padgett's hinge set-up" article....know I had it SOMEWHERE!


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## Lazarus

ArcherXXX300 said:


> everyone I know says my releases are slow but they really aren't that slow.


Slow/fast, it doesn't really matter. The often overlooked fact is this; no matter what the setting, after about 50 repetitions your brain will compensate and make the setting pretty much irrelevant. Then it reverts back to the only thing that really matters, Process. Give a shooter a hinge set any way you like and they'll have it mastered in less than 100 shots. As always, it's all about Process. You do the right things right in the Process.............the release fires itself. 

Good discussion.


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## Fury90flier

N7709K said:


> For those saying that safeties are the way to go, what are the benefits you see that other than you cannot accidentally fire the release during the draw? honest question here...for me, it was a "fuzzy feeling" thing. I figured with the safety I wouldn't hit myself in the face. The reason I got into a hinge was because of how cheap I got my Carter Solution 2--25 bucks and had a safety so I was sold. It wasn't long before I realized I didn't care for the safety...just pull right
> 
> if the time/steps are taken to learn how to setup and draw with a hinge before you integrate the release into the bow having a premature fire is more or less a non issue. None of the coaches I work with recommend learning with a safety; they may have a shooter use a release with a safety(more commonly a resistance release like the evo or element) but not to learn on. I can see where handing someone a release and saying go shoot it would be beneficial.... but that doesn't do anyone justice..


I kind of fall into the "just go shoot it" category...so I know a lot of what NOT to do and what to do to keep yourself from knocking yourself out. The downside is that my growth has been limited because I only asked for coaching as needed....not necessarily the right way to go about it. While I had access to great coaching, I simply didn't use them as often as I should have.



EPLC said:


> I can only speak to the TRU Ball Sweet Spot. This release has a head that swings freely with the safety engaged. The sear is built into the head so the speed of the release remains constant, and is not dependent on hand position. With the standard hinge I would find the edge of the sear after a short period and then freeze. I haven't had this issue with this release. Now a hinge with a clicker may also resolve this as well.


My favorite release is my Zenith 3D+...small, light and with a clicker. Since I shoot a recurve (Oly) it was natural for me to pull through the click so when I went with that option on a release it was an easy setup /transition



ArcherXXX300 said:


> So you're all telling me you draw with even weight on all 3-4 fingers with a hinge? I draw with the majority of the weight on the index and thumb, but I do have pressure on the other fingers....everyone I know says my releases are slow but they really aren't that slow. I only punched myself in the face with a hinge one time and that was because I had a scott backspin with a super short d-loop and when I went to draw the bow I pivoted my hand about 30* or so counterclockwise (I'm right handed) and the hook simply slipped out of the loop. Now....forgetting I shoot a hinge a majority of the time I punched myself in the face with a scott exxus numerous times.


The way I draw is significantly more weight in the index side. I'm sure I can change how the setup is but I've got enough to deal with so I'm not changing it right now. What I do is use probably 70% in index side then when at anchor I drop the thumb which transfers more weight to the ring finger side...then continue with the firing engine.



N7709K said:


> I have more pressure on the ring finger during the draw than on the thumb, a lot more. The thumb is just a "safety" so to speak, enough pressure to act as a precautionary tool but not enough to really aid in drawing the bow. its like a 19lb/19lb/17lb/5lb breakdown across the fingers with the thumb having very little


you don't count...you already know what you're doing...lol


I'm probably at the point where I can start using a more accurate hinge setup and firing engine...time for Padgetts articles.


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## nochance

OK, so what are the disadvantages of keeping a lot of pressure on the pointer finger and thumb peg during the draw? Improper hand position?


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## Fury90flier

having to reposition the hand after anchor contributing to an inconsistent anchor is about all I can think of.

Edit...It could also contribute to a rough draw process and cause bouncing of the arrow on the rest. This isn't an issue for captured rests/hunting rests but if you're running a narrow blade it can be a big deal


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## ILOVE3D

N7709K said:


> I think i managed to get off two shots the first time I played with a hinge before I popped it early and took a face full of fist and release... I'd like to say that is the only time ive done that... but sadly that isn't the case. When i learned how to somewhat shoot a hinge I had nothing to go off of; just picked it up and figured it out. that said I wouldn't recommend that route to anyone; too many hours and weeks of frustration, lots of bad habits you have to break later, and a drawer full of releases. Now that i've addressed the issues i've had with a hinge and have the system down here I how I go through selecting a new release and some tricks to get them working a little better.
> 
> when you're looking at a release to get there are a few things to keep in mind: 1) the physical weight of the release (more or less what material is it made from), 2) number of fingers, 3) finger bed design and type. there are some more things but these are the major ones....
> 
> 1) physical weight.
> 
> This is a big one; heavier releases are both a gift and a curse (similar to heavy bows). With the added mass of them you can set them very light and use the weight of the release aided with a bit of a push to pop the release... not saying it doesn't work, but having a hinge set hot isn't beneficial when the pressure gets put on you. If the shooter commits to how they learn the release a heavier (brass) is going to provide a more forgiving shot and a slightly smoother break; the added weight in the hand requires more force to move so it tends to track is a linear path a little better. The main benefit is that the release hand stays more relaxed with the added mass weight; you feel it against your fingers better and you don't feel like its "fragile". Brass does have a tacky feel compared to ano alu so it doesn't slide around as much in the hand... but you can change the feel a couple different ways (tape, polishing, wearing the release in[tarnish] and how the calluses ride in the release from shooting).
> 
> 2) number of fingers.
> 
> the fewer the fingers the harder to cheat. pretty much that simple; 4 fingers work and work well, but I wouldn't suggest learning on one.
> 
> 3) finger bed design.
> 
> This is a big one; the entire feel of the release changes, the forgiveness changes, how well the release informs the shooter that the shot has stalled out, etc all depends on the shape of the finger beds. There are flat finger beds (stans, truballs, scott backspin... ) and round finger beds (scotts, carters, and a couple others that I just can't remember). Round finger beds feel better in the hands; they have more of a comfort to them. Flat finger beds require a more uniform and diligent release hand when learning as the flats want to sit square to the pads of the fingers, they don't always feel as good (its one of those after you put 50k shots through a release you develop a memory of it in the hand and it doesn't feel right shooting anything else) but they lead to a higher quality of shot- they do take a bit longer to learn on however. I have and still do modify my releases with a little custom work to best fit me; i'll change the transition of the radius to the bed if there is a hard edge, i'll tape off the ring finger, etc...
> 
> When you find a release that works and you shoot well, stick with it for a while... new and shiney doesn't beat out something that you have mastered and know inside and out. I've been shooting the same release for 3 years before I picked up something new to try out- actually ordered it this week. That said, if you get into a situation where you cannot get past cheating the release or a mental block with the release process its time to change to a new release that you haven't played with.
> 
> Settle on one shot for your hinge; commit to making every shot with it the same... yes its not always possible to shoot every shot with a hinge exactly the same and you WILL end up "cheating" some due to weather conditions and other things (drawing back with 5 seconds on the clock is one of them). I prefer a very relaxed technique- in short how griv teaches, it takes some time to master, but it pays off.
> 
> With most hinges mark the outside of the moon adjacent to the neck of the release and use that as a reference for setting the release hotter or colder; also just crack the set screw loose enough to just slide the moon, it will make the process go a bit smoother.
> 
> I tape my releases (ring finger) with athletic tape or hockey tape; gives a little different feel and for me "cushions" the finger and I pull through the shot.
> 
> I'll keep this updated as the season progresses and I get training and shooting....


Lots of good information here Jacob. One thing I have noticed about new hinge shooters(myself included) is the vast majority of them think after a week or two of blank baling and just shooting the string to simulate your correct DL think that "Wow, I"ve got this down already" and go on to shooting targets and think they are now a hinge shooter. I know from my own experience and also another fella here locally that tried a hinge. Learning to shoot a hinge correctly for me has been a long process and still a process in the works. Some days things just go like magic and shooting is so easy and sweet, other days are not quite as good. I can't say enough for blank baling and of course many thanks to you more experienced people on here with all your tips and suggestions.


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> I have the same amount or pressure on the index as on the middle and only slightly less on the ring finder during the draw with just a slight bit on the thumb peg. Its not even between the three but I don't load up on the index and thumb. I can draw the release without a peg if I want to; not my thing and not something i recommend but its easily doable.


Yes, it can be done. Probably shot the no pulling post MagMicro Trio as good as any hinge I've tried. And never busted my mouth once  Tried the Mag the first time from 30 yards when N.P., 14 year old, asked me how "that thing" worked. I showed him. Just flat drilled the X ring from 30 yards. Floored him...me too.


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## Padgett

To me I see a great opportunity for a bunch of you guys to take a step back and really enjoy some of your training this winter and I really hope that you will do it. Take one of your hinges that you don't compete with and and just spend 20 minutes and do my HINGE SETUP ROUTINE, and then over the next couple months do some shooting sessions where you train with this hinge and your dominant competition hinge next to each other on a daily basis. To me this is where you are going to give yourself a chance to do one of two things, you will either confirm that your current method is the right one or you may find out that there is a different and better way to do things.


Here is my Hinge Setup Routine:

Smooth moon steps:

1. Turn the moon so slow that the hinge can’t physically fire, now put the hinge in your fingers and grip it with the grip that you wish you were using. You know the perfect grip on the hinge that just feels awesome. Now since the hinge can’t fire draw the bow 5 or so times using all fingers equally including the thumb peg and feel how awesome it is to draw a bow using all fingers equally. This is so important so don’t under estimate or rush this step because we are going to set up the hinge so that you can draw the bow with this awesome feeling and safely fire the hinge without changing your fingers during the entire process.

2. Now draw back with all fingers and get to anchor and then just release the thumb pressure smoothly and do not try to fire the hinge just release the thumb pressure and that is it. Now let down and speed up the moon a little and repeat the process over and over for about 5 minutes and sooner or later when you come to anchor and release the thumb peg it will fire. Now we know where we are and we are right on the edge which is way to fast so now slow down the moon just a little and you should be able to come to anchor using all fingers during the draw cycle and then let go of the pressure on the thumb peg and the hinge hasn’t fired but it is close.

3. Hinge setup is complete

4. Over the next week or so tweek the speed very slightly until you find the perfect speed setting that allows you to draw with all fingers and fire the hinge easily using your favorite firing engine. You don’t want it to fast where you are scared of early releases and you don’t want it so slow you can’t rotate it enough to fire it, you want it just right.


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## Padgett

I have been shooting a hinge long enough to have been through many stages of learning and for you guys who choose to use the hinge setup routine on one of your secondary hinges here is one thing that I suggest that you ponder as you begin shooting with equal pressure on all of the fingers. If you look at your hinge as a teeter totter where your ring and middle finger are on one side and your index finger and thumb are on the other side the you can start to ask some simple questions.

1. What happens when I let go of my thumb peg?

2. What is my safety catch that keeps the hinge from firing?

When you shoot a hinge that is set up where you are drawing with all fingers equally the moment that you release the thumb peg you are giving all of the poundage that you are holding to your index finger because they are on the same side of the teeter toter and since you just let go and now the thumb is not holding anything the index finger has to do all the work.

Now this is a really important point in your understanding of how your treat things right now because your index finger can choose to really tense up just before or during the time you are releasing the thumb peg and take the extra poundage with force or you can choose to allow your index finger to stay where it is at and just receive the gift from your thumb. Think about this little paragraph really closely because you understanding what I just said is critical.

Ok now lets go over the built in safety that is a result of your index finger receiving the extra poundage rather than grabbing it from the thumb by tensing up. The reason this is a built in safety is because when your index finger is aggressive and squeezes as you give the poundage to it you are limiting the amount of rotation by basically shutting off the rotation. When you allow the thumb to just give all of the poundage to your index finger there is much more rotation in the hinge as your let go of the thumb peg because the index finger just remains neutral and receives it. This extra rotation is the built in safety window, now it is your job once you let off of the thumb peg and give that side of the hinge to the index finger to set how much more rotation to fire the hinge and that is a personal thing depending on how much rotation your body is trained to generate smoothly.

Now one of the things you will find when you set up your hinge this way where you are giving the thumb pressure to the index finger is that your index finger will feel so much more neutral than normal and this feeling of relaxation but strength really translates into a hand that really responds well to your execution of the firing engine instead of fighting against it.


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## field14

Padgett said:


> To me I see a great opportunity for a bunch of you guys to take a step back and really enjoy some of your training this winter and I really hope that you will do it. Take one of your hinges that you don't compete with and and just spend 20 minutes and do my HINGE SETUP ROUTINE, and then over the next couple months do some shooting sessions where you train with this hinge and your dominant competition hinge next to each other on a daily basis. To me this is where you are going to give yourself a chance to do one of two things, you will either confirm that your current method is the right one or you may find out that there is a different and better way to do things.
> 
> 
> Here is my Hinge Setup Routine:
> 
> Smooth moon steps:
> 
> 1. Turn the moon so slow that the hinge can’t physically fire, now put the hinge in your fingers and grip it with the grip that you wish you were using. You know the perfect grip on the hinge that just feels awesome. Now since the hinge can’t fire draw the bow 5 or so times using all fingers equally including the thumb peg and feel how awesome it is to draw a bow using all fingers equally. This is so important so don’t under estimate or rush this step because we are going to set up the hinge so that you can draw the bow with this awesome feeling and safely fire the hinge without changing your fingers during the entire process.
> 
> 2. Now draw back with all fingers and get to anchor and then just release the thumb pressure smoothly and do not try to fire the hinge just release the thumb pressure and that is it. Now let down and speed up the moon a little and repeat the process over and over for about 5 minutes and sooner or later when you come to anchor and release the thumb peg it will fire. Now we know where we are and we are right on the edge which is way to fast so now slow down the moon just a little and you should be able to come to anchor using all fingers during the draw cycle and then let go of the pressure on the thumb peg and the hinge hasn’t fired but it is close.
> 
> 3. Hinge setup is complete
> 
> 4. Over the next week or so tweek the speed very slightly until you find the perfect speed setting that allows you to draw with all fingers and fire the hinge easily using your favorite firing engine. You don’t want it to fast where you are scared of early releases and you don’t want it so slow you can’t rotate it enough to fire it, you want it just right.


One critical thing to add here is that...once you have this setup completed...DO NOT CHANGE IT, period! I repeat, DO NOT CHANGE THIS SETTING! You now must LEAVE IT ALONE!
You are going to have times when the release won't fire so easily. You will have times when occasionally it will fire just a tad early, too. DO NOT CHANGE THE SETTING of the RELEASE!
YOU have changed something. It is NOT in the release aid or its setting.

So many people will change the release when they have some times of difficulty; in fact, I see people changing the setting on the release at almost every practice session! Worse yet, I've seen 'em change the setting during league or tournament rounds, too! They get it in their heads that "the RELEASE speed has changed" so they need to adjust it "just a hair". Wrong approach, and it will lead you down the path of destruction.

Avoid the temptation to change the speed on ANY release just cuz you have some troubles. When it was working just fine a couple of weeks ago and now it isn't...YOU are the culprit, not the release aid!
SET IT AND FORGET IT...leave it alone and shoot the hell out of THAT setting and quit grasping at straws. I know some top echelon shooters that haven't changed the setting on their "moon" in years! They don't mess with the RELEASE setting. Some do; most don't.
Most people's tendency is to speed the thing up IF they make any changes...normally, that is the wrong direction and will lead you to cheating the release and you WILL end up with TP or a hugely bad habit of wristing it or "punching it" instead of using proper back tension!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Padgett

Another one of the things that we haven't really talked about in a while like the affects of a frozen index finger is the Super Man Effect, I am a hinge shooter that on occasion shoots a thumb trigger and the biggest issue that I don't like about shooting a thumb trigger is how weak and overly stressed my fingers feel when drawing a bow without my thumb on a thumb peg. My thumb is my strongest finger and when you eliminate it from the draw cycle you just feel really weak.

Now not only do I feel weak when I shoot a thumb trigger but I also feel really weak and my fingers feel very stressed when I shoot someones hinge and I draw my bow with my index finger and thumb only just for safety sake the first time or two. This super man feeling is something that you can only experience when you shoot your hinge by drawing with all fingers and the thumb equally, it translates into a very strong anchor and a hand that is relaxed from start of the draw cycle to the time when your hinge fires and at no time is anything under stress.

In fact I have been training for almost 9 months or so with firing my hinge without letting go of the thumb peg and it is proving to be one of my favorite methods for firing a hinge, I work on it daily when I am shooting and I even competed with it in july and august. There are some very positive things to be learned about a hinge by doing this kind of training and like I said the super man feeling at anchor is one of them.


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## Padgett

Field 14, You and I have talked about this before on the "set it and forget it" topic. I think for me as time goes by now that I am actually a hinge shooter I am finding that speed is less and less a issue because I have developed a good amount of rotation in my firing engine to actually get a variety of hinges fired set on different settings.

The way I developed this rotation in my firing engine is by specifically setting one of my hinges slower than my other ones, most of my hinges I have them set to what I feel is a great setting that I would compete with and every one of them has a slightly different feel but they are similar. The slow one though is way slower than my other ones and I have it set so that it fires right at the end of my optimal shot window. 

That brings up a cool subject on speed, I have studied my shooting enough to know that I want my hinge to fire from 2 to 5 seconds from the time I start my engine because during that floating window my float is really good. So I set my hinge speed on my competition hinge where it is going to fire really close to that 2 second early part of the floating window during my training sessions and I have my slow hinge set where it fires right at the 5 second portion of the window. I do this for more than one reason, one reason is because when I am shooting by myself and I am relaxed with no pressure I usually fire earlier in the window than when I am competing because there is no stress but in a competition where I am shooting a good score there is some stress that will slow things down and put me later in the window before it fires. Secondly by having a slow hinge it allows me to practice running a longer firing engine and shooting in that later stages of my floating window so that when I am competing I don't freak out because it is taking a little longer than normal because I have been practicing it and am now used to it.


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## Suock

I have found this thread very interesting. I started shooting a hinge after 3D season ended. I was always worried that it would take so long to learn to shoot one that I never tried it before. The guys that I shoot with kept telling me that it would solve my punching issue. So far shooting indoors it seems to be working. I have read all the stuff on Padgett's website several times. My question is shootin this seems to easy and I am starting to wonder if I'm doing something wrong? I feel like I have been shooting one for years. I was expecting the transition to be harder. Any ideas?


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## bseltzer

SonnyThomas said:


> Wasn't joking. Here's the story; Got this Sweet Spot (safety). It was one of the very first out, picked up at the ATA show (and I ain't telling). It wouldn't set right. It would either go off when I hit the safety or wouldn't go off, no in between. Sold it for $50.00 and the guy says he could get it to set right. Well, he didn't get to set right. He sold it for $50.00
> So I'm at the Farm/Sports Department store with archery department. Here's this TRU Ball Gold Hinge with price tag of $27.00. Whoa! I asked if the price was right and the attendant said, Yes. I bought it. Yeah, mis-marked. Should have been $72.00. Okay, no one around my neck of the woods knew anything about hinge releases, so it was learn as you go like 7709 gave in his initial post. Got popped a couple of times and lived. Started making headway and this one time I drew back and wham, the lights went out. Didn't have the slightest idea what happened, just on my knees kind of stunned. The arrow was in the target, still had the bow and release in my hands. Shook the cob webs out of my head and tried again and again I was on my knees kind of stunned. Well, I had enough of that. That weekend was a local 3D. Sold it for $10 the first day.
> Since then I have had 5 or 6 hinge releases. I still have 3 Stans, a MagMicro Trio, a Deuce, and a BlackJack. And I R lucky. Guy needs some money. Brand new Stan Deuce still in package, $40.00. A new Blackjack and a new Onyx, $100.00. He named the price and I bought them. 3 years ago I used the Deuce once in Indoor competition and shot a 299 and 49 Xs. In practice I'd still launch one unexpectedly, not smacking myself. No confidence, never used it and any other hinge in competition again. Now, I do use one to practice, but just to keep me sort of honest using my two TRU Ball ST360s.
> Got all the articles I could get my hands, John Dudley, Griv (and can't find), Padgett here on AT. A hour talk with Doug Springer of Stanislawski. Get something going and next, it falls to pieces.
> 
> Hinges and thumb releases. I have shot my absolute best using a Scott Mongoose single caliper release, 3D, Indoor, Outdoor and Field.


Ouch!! Call me chicken stuff, but the first time I found myself on my knees wondering what happened would be the last. Seriously. The effects of a concussion (make no mistake, if the lights even dim, let alone go out, you've had one) are cumulative, and at my age, I don't have a lot of cerebral cortex to spare.

That said, I've been shooting a Stan Blackjack for a few weeks now with it set pretty slow. I don't draw in line with my face, and although I do load all 3 fingers during my draw, I put most of the tension on the index finger, a bit less on the middle finger and just a bit on the ring finger. So far, so good... But I'm not about to get complacent about it anytime soon. Meanwhile, the plan is to gradually warm the Blackjack up just to where the motion needed to set it off is small enough to facilitate maintaining a solid, consistent anchor. I see no up side to a "hair trigger" sensitivity.


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## Padgett

Suock, I have only been a member here on archery talk since 2010 and I was on bow country for a few years before that and only lurking here on archery talk. I started trying to learn about shooting hinges around 7 years ago and finally got my first one around 2010 and to me there was simply next to nothing available to help a guy get started. Now things are different, to me if you show any interest here on archery talk you can find articles on how to set up a hinge and fire one and the mental approaches behind this style of shooting.

I can remember back when I first wrote the hinge setup routine and began giving it out to people and what really frustrated me is that there were some guys out there who knew how do do this stuff but their knowledge was basically for their friends only or the people they coached for money. Those guys liked to give me pm's or comments in threads that my thoughts weren't original and I totally agreed with them and pointed out that maybe if you would share your methods with people instead keeping it to yourself might help.


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## N7709K

Mine are all set slow- i've had a few that I couldn't get to go off most of the time in practice but on the line in vegas they broke in 3 seconds. Setting them hot doesn't do you any favors, especially if you are getting over shooting careful. Like others have said, once you have the speed set where you find it most comfortable just leave it be (i haven't changed the speed on my release in 3 years). 

I'm not a proponent of training on multiple releases; I prefer to pick one (by one release I mean one specific model, I have a couple HT pro's that I shoot... ) and learn to shoot that release, if you need to play with things, play with that release. Learn the feel, learn how it reacts on good days and bad, and get accustomed to that release and how it works with your shot.

as far as transitioning from a button to a hinge and back i have never had an issue feeling as if my fingers were being overstressed; its always the same feel in the hands. I'd be hesitant in becoming overzealous and "strong" in the release hand, especially with a hinge.... thumb on the peg, been there, it works... but not as well as dropping the thumb off. There is only one shooter I know who has good success with keeping the thumb on the peg and his releases are set about as hot as they will go


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## montigre

Some of you are making it out to be a lot more difficult than it really is. The only times I have had premature releases were when my mind drifted off of the task at hand and once in a down pour during a Fita shoot while shooting a slippery as snot anodized hinge. 

I have since put a couple of strips of emory tape on the 2nd and ring finger rests on the release and have shot in the pouring rain since without any problems and without a second thought. 

If you take the time to find one that properly fits your hand and then learn how to fire it using a trainer or a rope, then transitioning to a bow should not be much of an issue. If you rush the process, just as in most of archery, a lot of things can crop up that are not necessarily related to the use of a hinge...


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## N7709K

Padgett said:


> I can remember back when I first wrote the hinge setup routine and began giving it out to people and what really frustrated me is that there were some guys out there who knew how do do this stuff but their knowledge was basically for their friends only or the people they coached for money. Those guys liked to give me pm's or comments in threads that my thoughts weren't original and I totally agreed with them and pointed out that maybe if you would share your methods with people instead keeping it to yourself might help.



I can't speak for everyone involved but I know for some it came down more to the experience level you were at for the information that was being given out and how quickly a following sprang up that blocked out any other information. I do know that information was given and methods were given (many of which were blown off because they were more than a quick and dirty "just shoot this release"; no one likes being told its gonna take XX months at this range and then XX months behind the bow learning to aim and working back before you'll be shooting consistent good shots at 18m). I know I came across as an ass a few times back then; most of it was because of what I said above... you would say do x,y, and z and people started following rather blindly in regards to the other information they would discount because your name wasn't attached.


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## mikesmith66

N7709K said:


> Mine are all set slow- i've had a few that I couldn't get to go off most of the time in practice but on the line in vegas they broke in 3 seconds. Setting them hot doesn't do you any favors, especially if you are getting over shooting careful. Like others have said, once you have the speed set where you find it most comfortable just leave it be (i haven't changed the speed on my release in 3 years).
> 
> I'm not a proponent of training on multiple releases; I prefer to pick one (by one release I mean one specific model, I have a couple HT pro's that I shoot... ) and learn to shoot that release, if you need to play with things, play with that release. Learn the feel, learn how it reacts on good days and bad, and get accustomed to that release and how it works with your shot.


Those 2 little paragraphs right there Jacob are 2 of the hardest things to beat into somebody's head if they are one of those guys that is constantly changing releases, constantly adjusting it and constantly shooting bad scores. They never learn to just pick one that feels comfy in your hand and while at anchor and roll with it. 

I've shot the same beat up HT since march 2010. The only time I adjust the setting on it is when I go outside. I always seem to like a deeper release outside for whatever reason.


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## Suock

Padgett, A friend gave me a Scott Longhorn 3 finger to try and after reading your stuff and him showing me somethings I got the hang of real easy. Even he does not get it. We were shooting Sunday and he said that he has never seen anyone take to it so fast. He has been shooting one for 10 years. I don't know if it is because I have a very mechanical mind (Director of Engineering where I work) or what it is. My concern is that it seems to easy and in my line of work if it is too easy then something must be wrong. Trying find other things to look for that I can figuar out if something is wrong or not. I only know a few people that have shot a hinge. Of that group they can see nothing. I picked up a Stan Jet Black for the Micro adjust and I ilke your idea of a fast and slow hinge. If you can think of anything let me know.


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## Fury90flier

field14 said:


> One critical thing to add here is that...once you have this setup completed...DO NOT CHANGE IT, ...(Tom D.)


Tom, I was one of those guys that changed my release quite a bit early on. This was on a thumb release, not hinge-- hinge scared me too much to change it. What I didn't undersand is how little a change you can make to your release grip, rotation angle, back tension etc will change how/when the sear trips. 

If someone feels that there are inconsistent sear trips...do some blind baling for a couple weeks. That will help to remove that inconsistency. 



Padgett said:


> To me I see a great opportunity for a bunch of you guys to take a step back and really enjoy some of your training this winter and I really hope that you will do it. Take one of your hinges that you don't compete with and and just spend 20 minutes and do my HINGE SETUP ROUTINE, ...


I'll be doing this very soon. Unfortunatley I only have one hinge release right now...someoen decided they needed it more than me when I left it at the range (members only range). Sad when you can't even trust your own members to return dropped/left items.

anyway, your description of setting up a release is basically what I was doing on the missing release.



Padgett said:


> Another one of the things that we haven't really talked about in a while like the affects of a frozen index finger ....


This is exactly what happens to me from time to time...I'll be thinking "fire"...not a specific "triggering" but for me "fire" means I've found the necessary float and it's time to send the arrow. Unfortunately there are some muscles that do not receive that signal. Now that you say Superman effect...I get it. That is exactly what was happening. No matter what I did, including pulling with my middle and ring finger would fire the release. I guess I really don't trust that realease setting... 

But I've found a way to fix that...just let down. It seems my thumb will forget to hit the peg and sure enough, soon as I let down- BAM...there's the rotaion I need. I even had one last night tagging the 70M bale...(which reminds me, today I need to move the bale back about 4 yards as it's not exactly in place). On that mistake (had 2)...one hit the 5, the other a 7. It felt so bad that I though I had missed the bale completely...so actually a great session. Felt pretty good to mess a shot up that bad and still hit red.


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## Padgett

I think that is what I like about these discussions, finding a way to express your methods so people can see what you are actually doing. I can tell by a couple comments by n7709k that I totally failed especially with my super man thoughts.

I am not a overly aggressive shooter, I put a nice smooth amount of tension on the wall and I run a engine that creates rotation. One thing I don't like is feeling like I could come off of the wall and creep, to me the type of firing engine that I use helps me stay planted against the wall or slightly creep forward. Also how I grip the release can make me feel more solid and not struggling and these two issues together help add up to a very nice anchor position. That is all I was trying to talk about.

I am a high volume shooter most of the time and I do have a dominant hinge that I compete with, almost all of my training ends up being with it and I don't just change because I make a bad shot. I do specific training sessions where I work on things and during those training sessions I do enjoy changing hinges from one brand to another and each one has a slightly different speed. You know when I was a college baseball player at missouri state we had some guys who swung the same bat at every ball every day and never ever would have used a different one for even one swing, I always found that I could hit with any bat any size or weight. Sure I had a certain bat that I felt most confident in how I felt when I used it but I also used very heavy ones to train and gain strength and I used light ones to work on maximum bat speed. I have always been confident that if you have good fundamentals you can use those to play games at a high level with a variety of equipment.


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## Fury90flier

I like the superman analogy...I'll keep that and remind myself not to overdo it on the index side. So, no you didn't fail. Remember, not all comments and teaching methods reach everyone equally. I've had a few students specifically for that reason.



Padgett said:


> ... basically for their friends only or the people they coached for money. Those guys liked to give me pm's or comments in threads that my thoughts weren't original and I totally agreed with them and pointed out that maybe if you would share your methods with people instead keeping it to yourself might help.


This reminds me of various landmen I've worked with. They were very selective with who they'd help out. Because they believed that those who were being trained or helped would take work from them. Personally I think that if someone has to worry about that, they simply don't have confidence in their skills.


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## N7709K

I got started shooting on the recurve side and transitioned into compound after a couple years with a recurve... Not saying it wasn't a good way to go, but it did bring along some aspects that are harder to find with compounds- holding weight is one of them. On my VE+ how I had it setup the last season I ran it I was around 28.4lbs holding weight and drawing 59lbs, i'm a bit closer to 26.5lbs on my Pro comp at the same 59lbs. With that the aspects of not staying strong in the shot kinda fade away, as does engaging the arms too soon/drawing with the arms and the needed pressure is there to fire the release and keep the halves apart. 

With this I engage the shoulders early on and do the majority of the work with the shoulders; including the draw. When i setup the hands they don't bear the weight so to speak during the draw, they just keep things in their places. 

With the index; you cannot only tense the index and have the rest of the hand relaxed. The tension in the hand is more of a culprit than the index itself; with the tension(hard hands) the release cannot rotate and the hands cannot yield


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## TDS

Well, I ordered my first hinge (Trueball HT 3 Pro). Should be here by the end of the week. Padgett thanks for the help and on the release recommendation. Hopefully I won't bloody my lip.

Also thanks to everyone else who has contributed on this thread.


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## Padgett

I didn't comment the other day you brought up hard hands but I did agree with how you put things out there on that one. To me when you are doing things correctly everything feels strong and confident and relaxed all at the same time.


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## bseltzer

mikesmith66 said:


> Originally Posted by N7709K View Post
> Mine are all set slow- i've had a few that I couldn't get to go off most of the time in practice but on the line in vegas they broke in 3 seconds. Setting them hot doesn't do you any favors, especially if you are getting over shooting careful. Like others have said, once you have the speed set where you find it most comfortable just leave it be (i haven't changed the speed on my release in 3 years).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a proponent of training on multiple releases; I prefer to pick one (by one release I mean one specific model, I have a couple HT pro's that I shoot... ) and learn to shoot that release, if you need to play with things, play with that release. Learn the feel, learn how it reacts on good days and bad, and get accustomed to that release and how it works with your shot.Those 2 little paragraphs right there Jacob are 2 of the hardest things to beat into somebody's head if they are one of those guys that is constantly changing releases, constantly adjusting it and constantly shooting bad scores. They never learn to just pick one that feels comfy in your hand and while at anchor and roll with it.
> 
> I've shot the same beat up HT since march 2010. The only time I adjust the setting on it is when I go outside. I always seem to like a deeper release outside for whatever reason.
Click to expand...

If there's one thing that stands out amongst all I've learned so far about using my hinge, that's it. I couldn't have put it better myself. Until I slowed the Backjack down to where I could truly "feel" what I was doing, I was pretty much just thrashing. Once the actual mechanics of these things were manifest, it opened a door for me. I've still got a _long_ way to go before I have this style of release any where near mastered, but at least I'm on the right path (I think:wink

BTW, the wisdom doled out here was a big part of my first "Aha" moment with a hinge release, so I owe y'all a great big "*Thanks*"


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## SonnyThomas

Suock said:


> I have found this thread very interesting. I started shooting a hinge after 3D season ended. I was always worried that it would take so long to learn to shoot one that I never tried it before. The guys that I shoot with kept telling me that it would solve my punching issue. So far shooting indoors it seems to be working. I have read all the stuff on Padgett's website several times. My question is shootin this seems to easy and I am starting to wonder if I'm doing something wrong? I feel like I have been shooting one for years. I was expecting the transition to be harder. Any ideas?





Suock said:


> Padgett, A friend gave me a Scott Longhorn 3 finger to try and after reading your stuff and him showing me somethings I got the hang of real easy. Even he does not get it. We were shooting Sunday and he said that he has never seen anyone take to it so fast. He has been shooting one for 10 years. I don't know if it is because I have a very mechanical mind (Director of Engineering where I work) or what it is. My concern is that it seems to easy and in my line of work if it is too easy then something must be wrong. Trying find other things to look for that I can figuar out if something is wrong or not. I only know a few people that have shot a hinge. Of that group they can see nothing. I picked up a Stan Jet Black for the Micro adjust and I ilke your idea of a fast and slow hinge. If you can think of anything let me know.


It is not unheard of for someone to pick up a hinge and take off almost running, but still kind of rare. Flat ground, things are easier. Shooting up and down hill may prove different. Stans are one of the easiest hinge releases to adjust, micro adjust under .001"...feels like anyway. And really, too easy as you want to adjust it when there's nothing wrong with it but you. Like field14 pointed out, once set, forget it.


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## Suock

SonnyThomas said:


> It is not unheard of for someone to pick up a hinge and take off almost running, but still kind of rare. Flat ground, things are easier. Shooting up and down hill may prove different. Stans are one of the easiest hinge releases to adjust, micro adjust under .001"...feels like anyway. And really, too easy as you want to adjust it when there's nothing wrong with it but you. Like field14 pointed out, once set, forget it.


That's a good point about the up and down hill stuff. I will try that later in the week. Thanks


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> Some of you are making it out to be a lot more difficult than it really is. The only times I have had premature releases were when my mind drifted off of the task at hand and once in a down pour during a Fita shoot while shooting a slippery as snot anodized hinge.
> 
> I have since put a couple of strips of emory tape on the 2nd and ring finger rests on the release and have shot in the pouring rain since without any problems and without a second thought.
> 
> If you take the time to find one that properly fits your hand and then learn how to fire it using a trainer or a rope, then transitioning to a bow should not be much of an issue. If you rush the process, just as in most of archery, a lot of things can crop up that are not necessarily related to the use of a hinge...


Well, no, it's not all that difficult...unless you have problems. You get "gun shy." You get frustrated. And your favorite release is in easy reach.

I went the Trainer thing with assistance from Doug Springer. By Doug I had it down perfect. Advised to lower my draw weight, did that. Advised to shoot up close, did that. Used only my two finger Deuce for a long time and shooting 5 spot Xs came so easy...right up until real competition. Perhaps a problem, working at a archery, only bows like in tuning and testing. And this could go on and on.

So I got a Stan MoreX with a safety pin. The safety pin is only for training, not something you thumb so you can shoot. This safety pin crosses under/behind the sear so you actually shoot it, test it for firing, but the sear isn't released to let the string go. All you get is a click. Let down, set the hook and go again and again. Did this so the release went off like magic. Pull the safety pin and go to shoot and the brain worry gets in the way.

Here are my Blackjack and Onyx. The red lines point to the cross pin in place and in storage in the handle. Note deep red triangle, set screw in middle, this adjusts the sear. Yep, just a allen wrench does the trick, no moon to get away from you or move when tightening.


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## ron w

speaking of "taking off running", my daughter did exactly that when she was 17. 
I taught her to shoot when she was 16, with a wrist strap, using it correctly with back tension and she shot her first 300 about 6 months after she learned to shoot. she shot that wrist release, for about a year and a half, then one night at leagues, in the middle of her round, when we all got back to the line from scoring, she she took her wrist strap off reached in my pouch and took out my comfort3, that was my back up and simply proceeded to shoot with it like she was shooting a hinge all the time. it was honestly the first time I ever saw her even so much as try a hinge. I don't think she had any misses. or shot any worse than she would have, with her wrist strap. she just grabbed the thing and started shooting it !. I never saw anything like that, before. she also never punched herself with the hinge, that I know of.
at the end of the round, she told me I had to look for another hinge, because this one is great and it's mine, now! I gladly relinquished my zenith to her !.


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## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, no, it's not all that difficult...unless you have problems. You get "gun shy." You get frustrated. And your favorite release is in easy reach. Pull the safety pin and go to shoot and the brain worry gets in the way.


I can conceptualize what you're saying, but I have never actually experienced it personally. I really have not shot anything other than a hinge--learned to shoot archery using one which may or may not have been the best course of action in the long term...and believe me, over the years I have had my share of battles with them...haha I currently shoot the 3-finger More X without the thumb peg (can't get it positioned correctly for my hand without it slipping due to the mystery metal used in that area of the release) and that was the hinge that I was referring to in my post as being slippery as a squid when it gets wet. 

I do have a Tru Ball Incredible thumb trigger release that I have yet to put through any paces; just shot it a couple of times for S&Gs, but have realized that I cannot hold it like I hold my hinge, so am having issues getting comfortable. I have other more pressing things to work on before the start of outdoor season that is taking my time, so learning the thumb release has been put on the back burner for the time being. :zip:


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## montigre

Ron, that is such a neat story. It is amazing seeing a true natural at the sport pick something up and as you said, just run with it right out of the box. Maybe we older farts just get in our own way too often...


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## Joe Schnur

First year at vegas Friday after shooting my round my wife says you are punching youth thumb trigger. Go buy a hing and fix it tonight. I bought a ht3 from the truball booth they helped me set it medium. I went back to the room after dinner and shot a thousand shots with the string bow . Saturday and Sunday I shot my average ( 10) pts better than punching) and never looked back. pS. Never punched my self in the mouth with it either. I was determined to make it work. . 49 years old and a physicist type A personality I think I had an advantage. But 2 years later I love my hinge even in the wind outdoors. Trust your shot. It will not fail you.


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## Deputy Archer

MikeR said:


> I agree with this, the SSII is an excellent release for a person, not only learning hinge techniques safely, also for competing. There are very few hinges I have not owned. Every one of them, I spent considerable time perfecting the technique to maximize my consistency. I have not found a hinge that I could not shoot well consistently. I am currently shooting a backspin, but I can shoot the same score with my SSII. I personally would not want to give a standard hinge to a youth or young adult with the knowledge that they would eventually bust a lip or tooth. There is no need to get them to full draw with tensed up muscles when they can have a balance draw and relaxed start to the shot process. The pluses of having a safety out weigh the negatives. A seasoned hinge shooter may want lose the safety, but for many people it may not be a good decision.


Couldn't agree with you more. 6 months into shooting a hinge and I am very happy with the honey line. Keep getting bashed on here for recommending them.


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## CoolRide

No one has a fear nor problem learning a hinge releases so long as they have never been on Archery Talk or come in contact with Bernie - 
The idea its like stabbing yourself in the eye learning how eat with a fork ! 
Do recurve archers punch themselves in the face learning back tension ?


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## Joe Schnur

Exactly


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## ron w

montigre said:


> Ron, that is such a neat story. It is amazing seeing a true natural at the sport pick something up and as you said, just run with it right out of the box. Maybe we older farts just get in our own way too often...


 man montigre, I often though the exact same thing. 
so many of us spend so much time and effort, trying to do it so perfectly, and then along comes someone who just picks up a hinge and starts shooting it with no training or anything and does just as good or better. 
she went on in her short stint of shooting with dad, to become known around the club as one of the better shots in the whole club. even today, yet, several years later, people still constantly comment about her and ask me where/how she's been and how come she's not here, shooting with you (?).
she doesn't much any more,.... two little one's and a busy family, in fact I don't think she's picked up her bow for about 4 or 5 years now, but i'd bet if she did, she'd just start pounding X's , just like she never stopped shooting......she's just that kind of a natural at it. even when I taught her, it took so very little "teaching and coaching". it was almost like, " here's the bow, go shoot it, the arrow belongs in that little circle with the X in it and she put it there. in her first leagues, she won "top female shooter" against several ladies that have been shooting for years and would have been in the top 10 or so, even in the men's league. 
I used to here people say to their kids, "go watch Liz Ward shoot".


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## Lazarus

CoolRide said:


> No one has a fear nor problem learning a hinge releases so long as they have never been on Archery Talk or come in contact with Bernie -
> The idea its like stabbing yourself in the eye learning how eat with a fork !
> Do recurve archers punch themselves in the face learning back tension ?


Lot of truth to that right there. ^^^ Where's the "like" button? 

Some of you need to find an old home made rope and spike (the original "hinge,") shoot it for six months, a year, maybe longer, then report back on your findings.


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## SonnyThomas

CoolRide said:


> No one has a fear nor problem learning a hinge releases so long as they have never been on Archery Talk or come in contact with Bernie -
> The idea its like stabbing yourself in the eye learning how eat with a fork !
> Do recurve archers punch themselves in the face learning back tension ?


Well, I rang my bell more than a couple times with hinge long before I joined AT and long before I knew Bernie P.


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## Stroketech

I smacked myself the first time. But I think it's because the person teaching me had been on AT or talked with Bernie. Lol


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## unclejane

N7709K said:


> For those saying that safeties are the way to go, what are the benefits you see that other than you cannot accidentally fire the release during the draw? honest question here...


With the Honey Do, the main advantage is it adapts on-the-fly to your preferred hand position. So, the "heat" of the release is exactly the same every time, when you release the safety. The sear mechanism is locked closed with magnetism and moves freely with the safety engaged, so the position of the handle is effectively customized to fit you on every shot. It adapts to you and not the other way around.



> if the time/steps are taken to learn how to setup and draw with a hinge before you integrate the release into the bow having a premature fire is more or less a non issue. None of the coaches I work with recommend learning with a safety; they may have a shooter use a release with a safety(more commonly a resistance release like the evo or element) but not to learn on. I can see where handing someone a release and saying go shoot it would be beneficial.... but that doesn't do anyone justice..


I don't personally see the basis of the objection to a safety. What harm does it do? Honest question, I really don't see what the problem is.

LS


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## rn3

Lazarus said:


> Lot of truth to that right there. ^^^ Where's the "like" button?
> 
> Some of you need to find an old home made rope and spike (the original "hinge,") shoot it for six months, a year, maybe longer, then report back on your findings.


Why not go back a little further and try a ledge.


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## montigre

unclejane said:


> I don't personally see the basis of the objection to a safety. What harm does it do? Honest question, I really don't see what the problem is. LS


No objection, but from personal experience, a safety just adds unnecessary steps, another part to break, extra movement, and more tension to the release hand. If the use of a hinge is done properly from the beginning, there really is no need for a safety. Honest answer. :teeth:


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## Lazarus

rn3 said:


> Why not go back a little further and try a ledge.


I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I ain't stupid! I still have most of my teeth, and I'd like to keep it that way!  Besides, those were used on 70" recurves! I don't think the string angle of a 38" ata compound would be too conducive to them working very effectively. :wink:

montigre, good answer to the question just above. Same applies for the "click."


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> None of the coaches I work with recommend learning with a safety; they may have a shooter use a release with a safety(more commonly a resistance release like the evo or element) but not to learn on. I can see where handing someone a release and saying go shoot it would be beneficial.... but that doesn't do anyone justice..


Just noting a incident at the shop. Friend of mine, looks like a body builder, yeah, muscles all over. He's looking for the "magic release" and has a new Evolution. So I get done with whatever bow and go watch him on the indoor practice range. He shoots a couple of times and seems taking forever. He looks wore out and I ask what the problem is. He says Evo won't go off, but then he says he's trying to make it go off with back tension and pulling himself in half doing it. So I tell him how the release is to work, just pull kind of easy. So he does and shoots a low 5 and shoots again and slaps his low 5 and hard. He looks at me with this comical dumb look and I laugh my butt off. He never missed a 5 for the remaining of his hour.


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## unclejane

montigre said:


> No objection, but from personal experience, a safety just adds unnecessary steps, another part to break, extra movement, and more tension to the release hand. If the use of a hinge is done properly from the beginning, there really is no need for a safety. Honest answer. :teeth:


Ok, just curious. It may be that because I'm so injured/weak etc., my draw is just really weird. Looks a little like the draw in Kyudo, where I have to sort of pull both arms apart at the same time with the bow raised up a bit more than normal. Now, when I tried the Longhorn, it was tough but I admit it didn't strike me as something I couldn't eventually get used to.
Oh well, interesting....

The Honey Do, tho, I have to say, you can wiggle that thing absolutely all around with the safety depressed, which I guess is more comfortable with the strange way I have draw right now until I get stronger. For me it's just safer for right now. 

I've gotten used to the safety in my draw cycle at this point. and the Honey Do makes it so comfortable I just don't feel like trying another LOL....

LS


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> No objection, but from personal experience, a safety just adds unnecessary steps, another part to break, extra movement, and more tension to the release hand. If the use of a hinge is done properly from the beginning, there really is no need for a safety. Honest answer. :teeth:





unclejane said:


> Ok, just curious. It may be that because I'm so injured/weak etc., my draw is just really weird. Looks a little like the draw in Kyudo, where I have to sort of pull both arms apart at the same time with the bow raised up a bit more than normal. Now, when I tried the Longhorn, it was tough but I admit it didn't strike me as something I couldn't eventually get used to.
> Oh well, interesting....
> 
> The Honey Do, tho, I have to say, you can wiggle that thing absolutely all around with the safety depressed, which I guess is more comfortable with the strange way I have draw right now until I get stronger. For me it's just safer for right now.
> 
> I've gotten used to the safety in my draw cycle at this point. and the Honey Do makes it so comfortable I just don't feel like trying another LOL....
> 
> LS


Well, you get use to a hinge, you like, stick with it. Now, montigre said properly. Hinges can be made to go off with different angle set, so properly is how you have it set for your hand. Padgett has the "ticket," but not pictured to really explain - this meaning you can draw with "equal" pressure across the fingers though angled.

Picture; black arrow, blue Stan, no pulling post hinge works quite well. The red two finger, left, is my "toy." The above black 3 finger MoreX Stan and I have yet to be "friends" and think because the pulling post is too dang short - it's out as far as I get it in the picture - ought to just take it off. All 3 keep me more "honest" with the 2 thumb releases.


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## MikeR

I may not always be the most intuitive person, but I have competed for over 40 years. In that time I have watched a lot of archers, The percentage of freestyle shooters who draw and anchor with the precision necessary to bring a hinge to precisely the same spot, without a click or safety, is relatively small. The pro shooters have obviously executed far more repetitions and have developed their form to a level that can assure them that they have the hinge where they want it to be. Sometimes statements that would draw the conclusion that a hinge without a click or safety is best for everyone, are simply misleading a large percentage of archers. Once again I may not be the most intuitive.


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## ArcherXXX300

Alright....am I the only one who drops the thumb peg and nearly completely flattens the hand before coming to anchor?


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## N7709K

neither a click or a safety add to the consistency of the release hand position as you reach anchor. The click can help if you set the release so as the click happen when you reach anchor... but that is more of how the click is used.

I'm not a fan of safeties for two main reasons 1) they don't foster consistency in the release hand during setup, draw, and anchoring. Since the release speed isn't mainly dictated by the position of the hand when you reach anchor inconsistencies arise. The release itself may be set for a certain speed, but if the angle of the hand changes it effectively changes the speed of the release. 2) they increase steps to the process to start and stop the shot; safety has to come off, then aiming can start. To stop the shot safety has to be engaged prior to letting down... Neither of these reasons are truly all that important, more my personal feelings on the matter... certain situations take different setups. 

as far as taking thumb off the peg and laying the release flat before anchor... I know neither of those things are in my shot process and not too many others that I know; not saying there aren't others whom do shoot like that.... but there aren't many.


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## ArcherXXX300

N7709K said:


> as far as taking thumb off the peg and laying the release flat before anchor... I know neither of those things are in my shot process and not too many others that I know; not saying there aren't others whom do shoot like that.... but there aren't many.


Just wondering, my releases are set slow enough that even if I shoot one with a click I drop the thumb and its well before I come to anchor, however if I'm shooting a click it clicks as soon as I come to anchor and the nose hits the string. I just found that I had bled nearly all tension from my forearm and back of the hand to lay my fist knuckles (where fingers connect at palm) under my jawline at a nearly completely relaxed state other than majority of tension across index and middle finger before I start the rest of my relaxation through my hand. If I don't drop the thumb and come to anchor with the thumb on the peg and I flatten my hand out the release seems to be super hot, I think that it's just the rotation caused at a faster rate and slower transfer across the fingers from having the tension in the arm due to reaching for the thumb peg, I'm just curious on thoughts on this. I've not had confidence in my shot since last Sunday when I royally screwed a tournament up but I shot pretty good Saturday at an indoor districts so I've returned to blind bail and shot execution. I've always been more of a wait for the shot to happen and not to "make it happen" by rotation or by pulling. It's always been transfer and continue to hold on the wall and relax, then the shot breaks.


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## Joe Schnur

Dave cousins and Jim morrow both preach pull. Most pro's preach pull if you just wait for it to happen leads to a weak passive shot . Not one that will get you to a 300 30x vegas repeatably


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## Flivver90

Tag for some great info. I'm a newb to the hinge, and have been practicing Padgetts method for a few days with string trainer only. Next is blank bale this weekend! Pretty exciting and a little nervous all at the same time. Exciting to shoot a hinge to help my TP and help my form. Nervous, because I think no matter how much practice I do with the string trainer, I feel I'm still going to either shoot out a light or get a fat lip of both!


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## Iowa shooter

Chance is a relax and wait for it shooter.
Bridger Deaton says his back tension is static when aiming.


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## ron w

as the release execution becomes more subconsciously ingrained into your shot, it becomes a matter of just waiting for the shot to happen. the whole idea of placing the release process in the sub conscious is so that we don't have to think about making it run.... therefore the function becomes a matter of establishing the necessary conditions to trigger it to run and then simply waiting, as the picture unfolds.
those "conditions" I mentioned above, have to be in place, because if they weren't, the process would run at any time during the shot's set up and the shot's break would be somewhat un predictable,... which, if you consider the "shot timing drills" we do,.... are designed to make the shot's break predictable, in that the drills train the execution of release, to coincide with the few seconds of least float during our routine. 
now,..... we can see that "period least float" during our shot sequence....it is a conscious part of the shot that we cannot avoid. so we all know that the shot is going to break during that time that we are seeing the least float.


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## ride394

Just curious how many people shoot their hinge by just pulling with no rotation via fingers?


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## SonnyThomas

ride394 said:


> Just curious how many people shoot their hinge by just pulling with no rotation via fingers?


Pulling is called muscling. According to Terry Wunderle those who muscle do well for a time and then go down hill. 

Okay, lack of confidence is the only thing keeping me from going solely with hinge, not that I can't use one. I actually carry a hinge when shooting 3D, but only use it for the "chip shot" kind of shot. Noted above was relaxing and waiting for the shot. By and large this is not true. Waiting, yes, but you don't let up. There has to be tension. Just holding to the wall can be tension enough. I have my 2 finger set this way.


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## ride394

SonnyThomas said:


> Pulling is called muscling. According to Terry Wunderle those who muscle do well for a time and then go down hill.
> 
> Okay, lack of confidence is the only thing keeping me from going solely with hinge, not that I can't use one. I actually carry a hinge when shooting 3D, but only use it for the "chip shot" kind of shot. Noted above was relaxing and waiting for the shot. By and large this is not true. Waiting, yes, but you don't let up. There has to be tension. Just holding to the wall can be tension enough. I have my 2 finger set this way.


Right, tension in the back but yielding the fingers and hand or applying tension with the middle/ring finger. I was just wondering if anyone still does it "old school" by only squeezing the back.


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## unclejane

N7709K said:


> I'm not a fan of safeties for two main reasons 1) they don't foster consistency in the release hand during setup, draw, and anchoring. Since the release speed isn't mainly dictated by the position of the hand when you reach anchor inconsistencies arise. The release itself may be set for a certain speed, but if the angle of the hand changes it effectively changes the speed of the release.


For what it may be worth, I've not found this to be a problem. In fact, I have found that one has to learn a consistent anchor to shoot well regardless; having it dictated by the release aid would be the crutch IMO, and not the other way around. On the Honey Do, the safety gives the benefit of a custom fitted handle angle on every shot. This has two advantages: 1) it's much easier to adopt a comfortable and correct anchor - I'm less likely to just accept a slightly uncomfortable position because I don't want to stop and adjust the release. The equipment adapts to the shooter, not the other way around. That's a philosophical thing with me and my approach to shooting, but that's just my approach. 2) it penalizes you less if you do make a mistake in your anchor. And it's less costly in terms of the danger and expense of a misfire due to that mistake - I'll take just a bad shot over arrows flying who-knows-where out of a half-drawn bow anytime lol. Indoors, not such a big deal, but for me that's a nightmare scenario out on a field course, for example. Everyone makes mistakes, and I see no reason why those mistakes would have to carry such heavy consequences if there's technology available in the release aid that can reduce that risk.



> 2) they increase steps to the process to start and stop the shot; safety has to come off, then aiming can start. To stop the shot safety has to be engaged prior to letting down...


I agree and it's one of the compromises of using a safety, especially with a release like mine that pretty much can't be fired without using the safety. OTOH, the burden is probably no more than the click used with some non-safety'ed releases - that's one more step in a shot cycle. I have found, however, that the additional step when letting down is worth its weight in gold. Mistakes are non-issues and the release won't fire no matter what I have to do to get the bow back down. Again, that's safer and less expensive, so the additional step of engaging the safety is worth it on let down, IMO.

LS


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## Padgett

I have been down both the Passive road and the Muscle it road, both of them are dead ends and basically wasted time. I have produced really good shooting with both of them for very short periods of time but in the end they would end in disaster usually at a 3d shoot where there was pressure to win. Both of these methods are very good when you are by your self shooting on the range but the moment you are put in a shoot where your anxiety level raises you are totally screwed. Both of these methods have very little rotation built into them and your hinge speed must be very very perfect and this is where your issues are going to come from because the stress of competition will slightly change your muscle tension in your hand and forearm and this changes things just enough that you can't fire.

This is why learning to smoothly apply pressure to the back wall as you use a method of generating rotation is so important, your training needs to be well thought out and your goal is to develop more rotation than is needed. This is where all most all people go wrong, they only produce what is needed to fire their current setting, the problem is that when anything changes such as pressure or maybe footing or a down hill shot this leads to them not being able to fire and frustration.

I have many guys who have told me that shooting more than one hinge is a mistake and that you should stick with only one of them but I disagree, by having one of them set as your competition setting that is optimal and one of them set slower now you can really do some specific training. I absolutely love doing my warm ups with my slow hinge, it isn't my dominant hinge so my performance doesn't really matter so I don't care how I am hitting but I can warm up with a very nice smooth amount of rotation. What this has done is allow me to have my dominant hinge set slightly slower than it used to be, even though it is slightly slower than normal the amount of rotation I am able to generate allows it to fire very easily and early in my firing engine.

When I first became a 300 60x guy and able to shoot many of them per year I had my hinge set very fast where I had to pay close attention to my drawing of the bow to make sure I didn't have a accidental misfire but now by doing this kind of training with a second hinge I am able to produce a very smooth amount of rotation and it has allowed me to really move on to better shooting.


----------



## SonnyThomas

ride394 said:


> Right, tension in the back but yielding the fingers and hand or applying tension with the middle/ring finger. I was just wondering if anyone still does it "old school" by only squeezing the back.


I draw with my back and maintain back tension to hold to the wall.


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## Padgett

I wrote that post for more than one reason but one of my main reasons was to give specific reasons to why I really disagree with the "SET IT AND FORGET IT" method. There is way to much advantage out there to working with your hinge speed in a way to enhance your hinge shooting.

1. Spending a afternoon getting your hinge in your hand with a very quality grip on the hinge.

2. Drawing with equal pressure on all fingers.

3. Learning how to give the thumb peg pressure to the index finger

4. Learning how to use the thumb peg pressure as your safety window

5. giving the thumb peg pressure to a relaxed index finger instead of a stiff index finger.

6. Setting up the hinge so you are not using a stiff hand but a nice relaxed hand even during drawing the bow.

When you "Set It And Forget It" you are basically choosing to force your body to adapt to that setting forever, sure your hand and forearm and back tension and everything else will be able to do so but at what cost? By using your head and having goals as you set up your hinge so that your hinge setup including your grip and your speed can actually benefit your shooting to me is much more along the lines of what we do with everything else. I can't imagine somebody telling me that I should just pick some weight on my stabs and lock tight them on and never change them, just train your butt off until your body learns how to deal with the decision.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> I wrote that post for more than one reason but one of my main reasons was to give specific reasons to why I really disagree with the "SET IT AND FORGET IT" method. There is way to much advantage out there to working with your hinge speed in a way to enhance your hinge shooting.
> 
> 1. Spending a afternoon getting your hinge in your hand with a very quality grip on the hinge.
> 
> 2. Drawing with equal pressure on all fingers.
> 
> 3. Learning how to give the thumb peg pressure to the index finger
> 
> 4. Learning how to use the thumb peg pressure as your safety window
> 
> 5. giving the thumb peg pressure to a relaxed index finger instead of a stiff index finger.
> 
> 6. Setting up the hinge so you are not using a stiff hand but a nice relaxed hand even during drawing the bow.
> 
> When you "Set It And Forget It" you are basically choosing to force your body to adapt to that setting forever, sure your hand and forearm and back tension and everything else will be able to do so but at what cost? By using your head and having goals as you set up your hinge so that your hinge setup including your grip and your speed can actually benefit your shooting to me is much more along the lines of what we do with everything else. I can't imagine somebody telling me that I should just pick some weight on my stabs and lock tight them on and never change them, just train your butt off until your body learns how to deal with the decision.


This is exactly the issues I've had with non-safety hinges. I use too much index and it never gets right.


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## ArcherXXX300

Iowa shooter said:


> Chance is a relax and wait for it shooter.
> Bridger Deaton says his back tension is static when aiming.


That's my point. I went and saw Larry Wise for coaching and he told me my release hand was excellent. I really like the surprise shot that I get through relaxing while holding to the wall. We had a nice discussion about methods of people firing a hinge using "Back Tension." I told him I'm more of a relax shooter and that transfer occurs as I bleed tension from my release hand/forearm etc while maintaining in the back and he said that is how it is supposed to be done. It's all about the TRANSFER of tension. I asked him because I saw some other coaches that said I need to learn a pull shot and I've read and researched and heard all of this pull the bow apart crap. I asked him, "How can you be relaxed and consistent when you're using so much muscle to push and pull into the stops hard for the shot to break?" He told me you can't. The pro's arrow tip will sit dead still on the rest once they've loaded their back at anchor, it won't creep back or forward really. They hold into the wall and transfer the holding from the hand/forearm to the back as they yield tension in the arm/hand the release rotates and the shot breaks. To me that's what I've seen and how I understand it to be done.

Shot timing is critical, however if you are actually timing your shot you are anticipating to some degree IMHO. My shots almost always broke under the same amount of time with my pull into the wall and relax through the shot.

Padgett is dead on about release setup, I pull with all fingers on the release but not evenly. I try to have a straight and relaxed release hand before I even hit anchor and I've already dropped the peg, I hit anchor and aim and continue to transfer the weight through the rest of the fingers through relaxation and I may feel like I'm pulling but it's more of a stretching as the release rotates the elbow moves slightly back and the shot breaks and I have no idea when it did.

Just my thoughts/experiences.


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## Padgett

Eplc, Frozen finger syndrom is something I suffered with and had nobody to help me so i worked on it for quite sometime until I finally started understanding how to deal with it and it has lead me onto other lessons learned.

First of all I mentioned it in a earlier post yesterday but you should spend a little training where you focus on your index finger, What I have learned is that by giving my thumb peg poundage to the index finger will lead to two choices. You can either start giving your thumb peg poundage to the index finger while the index finger flexes and meets it half way tensing up or you can allow your index finger to just receive the poundage without moving and remaining neutral

Letting the index finger remain neutral has more than one benefit, first of all especially if you are a Yield shooter why would you want to have a relaxed hand as you come to anchor and then as you release the thumb peg stiffen up your index finger so than now your hand has extra stress in it that you have to compensate for. This is counterproductive. Secondly when you stiffen up your index finger you are basically slowing down your hinge so now you have to produce more rotation and since it is stiff producing that rotation is even more difficult, by leaving the index finger neutral you allow the thumb peg to release all of its poundage which takes a little extra rotation to do so as it moves forward and in effect allows your hinge to be set up slightly slower than if you had it set up to a stiff index finger.

So here are the positive things for a neutral index finger.

1. It allows your hinge to have more built in safety which allows more confidence during the draw cycle. Why? Because as you release to a neutral index finger there is more hinge travel to get to it because you didn't squeeze it and take up all the slack.

2. It allows the rotation to take place without having to over come a stiff index finger.

3. It eliminates extra transitions from being stiff to being relaxed or being stiff to yielding.

4. It makes a very balanced hand where you have all fingers with the same amount of effort being applied instead of some of them stiff and some of them relaxed.



3.


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## Padgett

One of the things that I did in the beginning back when my only worry about hinge shooting was firing the stupid thing was squeezing some fingers and relaxing other ones, like I said I had no knowledge of anything useful and was suffering and this allowed me to simply get rid of the arrow instead of just standing there wishing it would leave the bow. Now that I am a hinge shooter I realize that this is to much for your brain to be invested in because you are adding to the list of jobs that it must manage at the same time. You could be smoothly putting pressure on the wall with your back tension and either yielding your hand or slightly squeezing your ring and middle finger and by also trying to extend your index finger you are adding one more job to the list and it is in a opposing direction which causes even more issues.


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## Padgett

IT'S JUST A JOB

If there was one thing that I think we fail to stress not only to ourselves but to new shooters is that firing a hinge is just a job that must be done to get rid of the arrow. The problem is that we tend to allow this to dictate everything about our shooting especially in the beginning when learning.

I have a check list that I ask my hinge to comply:

1. It needs to fire within my 2 to 5 second float window

2. It needs to leave my float pattern alone and not make it jump around

3. It needs to feel strong at anchor

4. It shouldn't creep off the wall.

As long as it is getting these issues taken care of I am happy and I can trust it to get rid of the arrow like it is supposed to without me worrying or wasting effort thinking about it. This allows me to be a spectator shooter who watches through my peep at the shot and enjoy what is taking place.


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## Lazarus

ArcherXXX300 said:


> That's my point. I went and saw Larry Wise for coaching and he told me my release hand was excellent. I really like the surprise shot that I get through relaxing while holding to the wall. We had a nice discussion about methods of people firing a hinge using "Back Tension." I told him I'm more of a relax shooter and that transfer occurs as I bleed tension from my release hand/forearm etc while maintaining in the back and he said that is how it is supposed to be done. It's all about the TRANSFER of tension. I asked him because I saw some other coaches that said I need to learn a pull shot and I've read and researched and heard all of this pull the bow apart crap. I asked him, "How can you be relaxed and consistent when you're using so much muscle to push and pull into the stops hard for the shot to break?" * He told me you can't.* The pro's arrow tip will sit dead still on the rest once they've loaded their back at anchor, it won't creep back or forward really. They hold into the wall and transfer the holding from the hand/forearm to the back as they yield tension in the arm/hand the release rotates and the shot breaks. To me that's what I've seen and how I understand it to be done.


This is some really good stuff. He's spot on about the "rip the bow apart" myth. 

Almost everything you do in shooting a bow is "opposites." The key to shooting any release, fingers, anything, is being able to master the opposite of pulling vs letting go. Said another way, tension vs relaxation. Lots of people come to this forum (the Intermediate/Advanced Forum) looking for answers. They want an answer written out in black and white. There's a good free flow of (sometimes) good information here. However, the answer to the question of how do you master the tension/relaxation technique is one that every single archer has to answer for themselves. (It's not black and white. It's an intangible.) The answer to this equation can't be found in a particular release, hinge set-up routine, by reading a book or watching a video, it can only be found through very close attention to detail, and practice. 

Sorry if that drifted a little off topic but I'm not really sure it did, it's totally what non-command shooting is all about. .02


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> This is some really good stuff. He's spot on about the "rip the bow apart" myth.
> 
> Almost everything you do in shooting a bow is "opposites." The key to shooting any release, fingers, anything, is being able to master the opposite of pulling vs letting go. Said another way, tension vs relaxation. Lots of people come to this forum (the Intermediate/Advanced Forum) looking for answers. They want an answer written out in black and white. There's a good free flow of (sometimes) good information here. However, the answer to the question of how do you master the tension/relaxation technique is one that every single archer has to answer for themselves. (It's not black and white. It's an intangible.) The answer to this equation can't be found in a particular release, hinge set-up routine, by reading a book or watching a video, it can only be found through very close attention to detail, and practice.
> 
> Sorry if that drifted a little off topic but I'm not really sure it did, it's totally what non-command shooting is all about. .02


While I agree philosophically with what you are saying, I do have a question: If there are no words to accurately describe this intangible technique, then how does one possibly practice it? Also, there is a shoot off video of Braden and Jessie in which you can actually see the two different techniques. Both work quite well. So, what may be crap for some is gold for others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnoUNfUQ-s&feature=player_embedded


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## Lazarus

EPLC, it is a search. If you are looking for a written "list" you won't find it. You're looking for a "feeling." Make sense? 

You actually answered your own question, Braden is different, Jessie is different, everyone is different. Find _your_ different.


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> EPLC, it is a search. If you are looking for a written "list" you won't find it. You're looking for a "feeling." Make sense?
> 
> You actually answered your own question, Braden is different, Jessie is different, everyone is different. Find _your_ different.


Good points. You might even find yourself stepping outside the box and putting the hinge down.


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## emptyquiver2

Terry recommends pulling the bow apart and not squeezing with the hand.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> This is some really good stuff. He's spot on about the "rip the bow apart" myth.
> 
> Almost everything you do in shooting a bow is "opposites." The key to shooting any release, fingers, anything, is being able to master the opposite of pulling vs letting go. Said another way, tension vs relaxation. Lots of people come to this forum (the Intermediate/Advanced Forum) looking for answers. They want an answer written out in black and white. There's a good free flow of (sometimes) good information here. However, the answer to the question of how do you master the tension/relaxation technique is one that every single archer has to answer for themselves. (It's not black and white. It's an intangible.) The answer to this equation can't be found in a particular release, hinge set-up routine, by reading a book or watching a video, it can only be found through very close attention to detail, and practice.
> 
> Sorry if that drifted a little off topic but I'm not really sure it did, it's totally what non-command shooting is all about. .02


Just touching on something. Relax/tension, tension, pulling the bow apart, and ripping the bow apart. Each person could be saying something on the same order, just saying it differently or leaving out a tiny bit. Okay, you can not let up or you'd come off the wall. Most Indoor target shooters use 65% and letting up would have the bow trying to take off. Am I missing something?


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## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Just touching on something. Relax/tension, tension, pulling the bow apart, and ripping the bow apart. Each person could be saying something on the same order, just saying it differently or leaving out a tiny bit. Okay, you can not let up or you'd come off the wall. Most Indoor target shooters use 65% and letting up would have the bow trying to take off. I missing something?


Yes. You lock outside fingers and let the index relax.(hinge) The string comes off the stops and the release fires itself. Much less muscle movement. It's a fairly popular shooting style. I've tried it, but don't care much for it. It works the same with a thumb trigger, only you lock your thumb and outside fingers, then relax your index.

Pulling harder often slows down movement for me, so I prefer pulling over relaxing.


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## emptyquiver2

To understand Terry (Wunderle)'s approach to relaxed shooting, it is explained on page 29 -31 in his book Archery:Think and Shoot Like a Champion.


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## N7709K

my question shawn is this: 

If the release itself is adjusted and not left constant how do you make way for things to plateau out and give rise to the needed form changes that come at that step? Same goes for how the release is fired... how do you address subtly form flaws and alignment issues when the main aspect of the shot which is trying to become a constant is ever changing when things stumble?

its not just pick a speed and leave it... its get it set correctly and once its set correctly just leave it alone and work on other issues...

I know for myself "pulling the bow apart" gets subbed in (often incorrectly) for remaining strong through the shot; its a simply way of getting across that the pressure between the halves needs to at minimum maintain a certain level (pressure building between the halves is a better route...). back contracts, chest expands, release side moves down and back...arrow goes in the middle.... the shooter "pulls" through the shot in that they don't roll the release or allow the increase in weight as tension against the bow is bled off to fire the release...


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## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Just touching on something. Relax/tension, tension, pulling the bow apart, and ripping the bow apart. Each person could be saying something on the same order, just saying it differently or leaving out a tiny bit. Okay, you can not let up or you'd come off the wall. Most Indoor target shooters use 65% and letting up would have the bow trying to take off. Am I missing something?


I will ask you this. Say you have a barn door that has a spring on it and you want it to remain open, do you stand there continuing to pull to keep it open? Or do you latch it back so it stays open till you trip the latch? The answer is obvious, you latch it open so you can go do something else, (like go through the release process.) Hopefully that explains it adequately.


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## Padgett

Awesome Question, I think that the thing that fuels me is to refuse to believe that I am 100% perfect. I became a 60x guy and rattled off about 20 59x rounds and 10 60x rounds three years ago and I loved going into the bow shop during that two month stretch and I was using the same exact method every day with the same hinge a bernies knuckle under set on click. During that time period I was commanding and getting to my click incorrectly and really didn't understand float and I was doing so many things wrong that other than my burning desire to shoot 60 x there really wasn't anything to stand on.

Right now my shooting is still getting better as the months go by and I refuse to stop my progression and simply do the things that are making me a good shooter at this level weather it is shooting form or mental approach or hinge setup especially during the training months where I don't have a shoot coming up. 

Now, when I have a big shoot coming up I go through my peaking process. During those weeks leading up I stop my general training and I do more scoring rounds and I limit myself to using my dominant release almost 100% of the time so that I can really zone in the exact feel of that specific release and its timing. During these weeks my volume drops and I may have a high volume day once a week but the other days are much more specific with either a scoring round or counting inside out x's.

Keep in mind that I am a 3d shooter and my number one goal is to use the winter to become a every day 60x shooter so that I am able to compete at 3d at the next level past where I am now so from late august through late january those are my training months.


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## Lazarus

emptyquiver2 said:


> Terry recommends pulling the bow apart and not squeezing with the hand.


That's all well and good. I won't argue with his approach since I haven't read that particular book and don't know the whole thing within it's context. Just from the sentence you wrote though I would wonder how the release is supposed to fire then, because just continuing to pull without rotation will NOT fire the release. I'm sure there's a good explanation. 

The "ripping the bow apart" philosophy (if that's truly what it means) is one of the worst things to happen to archery since the invention of the wrist strap release.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> I will ask you this. Say you have a barn door that has a spring on it and you want it to remain open, do you stand there continuing to pull to keep it open? Or do you latch it back so it stays open till you trip the latch? The answer is obvious, you latch it open so you can go do something else, (like go through the release process.) Hopefully that explains it adequately.


I maintain back tension, not aggressively, but to stay on the wall. Correct this.. My MarXman is a hold to the wall, non-aggressive maintain. My MX2 is hold on or it's taking off so I better be more aggressive. Either one I can relax the index finger, I just don't like it because of feeble brain. If this is the relaxed/tension I can accept the description.


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## ride394

Lazarus said:


> That's all well and good. I won't argue with his approach since I haven't read that particular book and don't know the whole thing within it's context. Just from the sentence you wrote though I would wonder how the release is supposed to fire then, because just continuing to pull without rotation will NOT fire the release. I'm sure there's a good explanation.
> 
> The "ripping the bow apart" philosophy (if that's truly what it means) is one of the worst things to happen to archery since the invention of the wrist strap release.


But pulling the bow apart with the correct muscles WILL rotate the release. If it doesn't then you're pulling with the wrong muscles (i.e. The arm and shoulder). 

I think a lot of people get confused when they try "back tension" and end up pulling with the upper back, arm, shoulder which also leads to the pin dropping or your scope dropping in your peep.


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## Lazarus

Sonny.....I hope I'm not overly simplifying this, but it is simple, you maintain pressure (that doesn't say INcrease pressure) on the muscles that keep the door locked open, you relax EVERYthing else.


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## Lazarus

ride394 said:


> But pulling the bow apart with the correct muscles WILL rotate the release.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that. If this approach works for you, outstanding. That's what I was saying to EPLC earlier, find "your" right way. 

Probably the main reason we'll not come to agreement on this is because I don't have the BT words in my vocabulary when it comes to firing a release. Back Tension is an attribute according to my way of thinking, not a technique. Hope that makes sense.


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## ride394

Lazarus said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on that. If this approach works for you, outstanding. That's what I was saying to EPLC earlier, find "your" right way.
> 
> Probably the main reason we'll not come to agreement on this is because I don't have the BT words in my vocabulary when it comes to firing a release. Back Tension is an attribute according to my way of thinking, not a technique. Hope that makes sense.


I definitely know what you mean, that's why quoted back tension lol. And I'm not sure if it is my way, I've tried them all and am still trying to determine what is best for me.


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## 3SixtyOutdoors

Tag


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## Fury90flier

Lazarus said:


> I will ask you this. Say you have a barn door that has a spring on it and you want it to remain open, do you stand there continuing to pull to keep it open? Or do you latch it back so it stays open till you trip the latch? The answer is obvious, you latch it open so you can go do something else, (like go through the release process.) Hopefully that explains it adequately.


That is a good way of describing how I am learning to fire my Stan Element release (pull through). If I use my Rhombus Major muscles (some use the minor) to hold my shoulder blades together (latch)...actually, dual latch L/R...then let the bow side go first it seems to spring toward the target...the release fires so much easier than pulling with the release side. It's as if it's 5# on bow side and 25# on release side.


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Sonny.....I hope I'm not overly simplifying this, but it is simple, you maintain pressure (that doesn't say INcrease pressure) on the muscles that keep the door locked open, you relax EVERYthing else.


I think this method works well with rotation firing, relax firing, and triggers.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> Sonny.....I hope I'm not overly simplifying this, but it is simple, you maintain pressure (that doesn't say INcrease pressure) on the muscles that keep the door locked open, you relax EVERYthing else.


Pretty sure we are on track.


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## PSE Archer

As any muscle is used it tires. Thus BT is ever increasing. 

I know of no instance where muscle is used, that there does not have to be an increase in the use of the muscle to maintain position. 
The same goes for BT. The first and foremost use of BT is to maintain the holding position. The muscle contraction must steadily increase to do this. As the contraction increases this causes internal movement - rotation. If one chooses to execute by relaxing the hand or through being on the edge and expanding through the shot - that is a personal choice. Continuous movement prevents a static shot. A good shot is dynamic in nature. 

Preaching to the choir but I thought I would throw my .02 in. Everyone else has.


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## Mahly

So after reading all of this, I went back and started using the hinge differently. I used Padgett's set-up guide, and one of his firing engines.
I see potential, not enough arrows through it yet to claim victory, defeat, or draw.
I am MUCH more relaxed on the draw (save for one bizarre issue I hope goes away).
One way I look at it now is my click confirms everything is going according to plan, instead of adjusting to hit the click ( releasing safety=click vs. rotate hand till reaching the click)


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## N7709K

Shawn, maybe its how i'm interpreting things, but that didn't really answer my question... 

as far as how the how should be; how the back should be... There are lots of ways to get to the same outcome. I'm not a proponent of rolling the release or "yielding the index"; not saying it doesn't work, its just a method that I will not teach and don't support. Beyond that I think it comes down to semantics as to whether or not what is being said is the same way to shoot the release. I'll admit i do a piss poor job being able to explain how i really shoot the release beyond "everything stays relaxed while the pressure builds between the halves", partly because that is where I am at with my shot and partly because i've never been very intune with what my body is actually doing.

That said here is a slowed version of my release hand and y'all can decide if its what you are saying or not... thinking it might be easier that way for me to gauge if we are on the same page. Forgive the poor form in the bow arm; kinda got a cramped space in which to have the camera set at the correct height... also apologize for the looks and what not; nose is still a little swollen from an oops while shooting one of my rifles over thanksgiving... its getting better, slowly tho.


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## Iowa shooter

EPLC said:


> While I agree philosophically with what you are saying, I do have a question: If there are no words to accurately describe this intangible technique, then how does one possibly practice it? Also, there is a shoot off video of Braden and Jessie in which you can actually see the two different techniques. Both work quite well. So, what may be crap for some is gold for others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnoUNfUQ-s&feature=player_embedded


I asked Bridger Deaton last night about firing the release. He said Braden and himself both have static backs after anchor. In other words, tension is not building in the back to fire their releases. There is enough tension in the back not to creep. 
Watching both of their follow throughs it looks like a lot of tension.


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## Joe Schnur

Ok looking carefully at the video many times . It appears you are doing what my coach is p proponent of set the release of once anchor is reached pull will naturally create enough rotation to make it go off. Technically if your hand were completely firm at anchor and you just pulled it would not go off. The release does physically rotate to go off. Young archers I get them to yield to get the relaxation however when done properly it looks like your video. No apparent rotation and no apparent yield . My students when simply told to pull load up all the fingers and get white knuckled. And end up not going off or punching. No other option. When it gets to our level the release and form are such that you can't see anything but the back arm rotating through the shot via the pull. So to sum it up yup we are on the same page just using different vernacular


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## ron w

Iowa shooter said:


> I asked Bridger Deaton last night about firing the release. He said Braden and himself both have static backs after anchor. In other words, tension is not building in the back to fire their releases. There is enough tension in the back not to creep.
> Watching both of their follow throughs it looks like a lot of tension.


 well trained subconscious release process that runs without being "told to run". if you have reached that level of shot execution, all you do is draw, aim and wait for the arrow to leave. when it's running good, it feels like you have done absolutely nothing to release the arrow.


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## possum trapper

so i everyone shooting 60x's and 300 rounds yet?


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## unclejane

I'm still trying to hit the target. Managed it last night, tho.

LS


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## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> so i everyone shooting 60x's and 300 rounds yet?


5 spot? Who talks 5 spot in here?


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## Joe Schnur

We are still deep in 300/30x Vegas game at this time of year


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## Lazarus

possum trapper said:


> so i everyone shooting 60x's and 300 rounds yet?


I notice a propensity for the information in this forum to revolve around indoor shooting. Just for the record, if I post I typically am not thinking in these terms. #1 I despise shooting indoors. It's not the shooting I don't like, it's the being indoors I don't like. Also, it tends to encourage a somewhat lazy shooting style. That's certainly not to say that everyone that excels indoors is lazy, not at all. But you can have a sub-par shot process indoors and still do pretty well. Outdoors, not so much. #2 A great deal of the vogue "subconcious," a, "stuff," goes out the window outdoors, I like that. That's because you have to shoot, you have to think, every shot is different, this makes a shooter not a robot. 

To answer your question directly, I'm not, I got really bored the other day with the 2712's and all this close stuff and went back to shooting standard size arrows and an outdoor set-up. I'm actually starting to work on the outdoor game for next summer already. I figure if I decide to sacrifice a weekend being outdoors to be cooped up in some stale indoor shooting range I can shoot just as good a score with my standard arrows as I can with logs. I have found it's a lot more important where the tip of my arrow hits than it is where the outside of my arrow hits. 

.02


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## ArcherXXX300

N7709K said:


>


Just something I noticed, the Thumb has a ton of tension in it on the first shot, not the others. There is no real perceivable movement of the fingers due to yielding or pulling with how I fire a hinge either and there shouldn't be.



ron w said:


> well trained subconscious release process that runs without being "told to run". if you have reached that level of shot execution, all you do is draw, aim and wait for the arrow to leave. when it's running good, it feels like you have done absolutely nothing to release the arrow.


This is correct.



possum trapper said:


> so i everyone shooting 60x's and 300 rounds yet?


Also...no I haven't shot a 60X, I've only been competing for 2 years now, best is 300 55X, but I've not been in the high 50X in a while.


SonnyThomas said:


> 5 spot? Who talks 5 spot in here?





SonnyThomas said:


> 5 spot? Who talks 5 spot in here?


5 Spot is a necessary evil...I must be the only person who likes 5 spot. I personally don't like 3 spot, probably because I suck at it.


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## SonnyThomas

ArcherXXX300 said:


> 5 Spot is a necessary evil...I must be the only person who likes 5 spot. I personally don't like 3 spot, probably because I suck at it.


I don't shoot spots of any kind. I'm the only sane person here


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## possum trapper

ok is everyone still having fun? so if you like 3d it should make execution of the release indoors the same.correct?


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## Lazarus

ArcherXXX300 said:


> 5 Spot is a necessary evil...I must be the only person who likes 5 spot.


I LOVE 5 spot. As long as I'm shooting outside!


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## ArcherXXX300

possum trapper said:


> ok is everyone still having fun? so if you like 3d it should make execution of the release indoors the same.correct?


We're all striving for the same release execution every shot yes? Then yes.



Lazarus said:


> I LOVE 5 spot. As long as I'm shooting outside!


I love field too, but its more 4 spot or 1 spot. I really don't like 3d at all. Calculating yardage sucks, so does not having an aiming point you can see. I shoot it for fun occasionally I'd shoot K45-K50, but screw that IBO crap.


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## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> ok is everyone still having fun? so if you like 3d it should make execution of the release indoors the same.correct?


Yep. Loosely, you just "haul back and shoot."


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## bseltzer

ron w said:


> well trained subconscious release process that runs without being "told to run". if you have reached that level of shot execution, all you do is draw, aim and wait for the arrow to leave. when it's running good, it feels like you have done absolutely nothing to release the arrow.


This is exactly how I fire a pistol. When everything is right, it feels as though I'm setting the gun off with my eyes, not my trigger finger. It took a lot of lead down range to get to that point, but now it's like riding a bicycle.

Unfortunately, I haven't reached that point with my archery yet. However, now that I'm working on learning a hinge release, I think I'm seeing a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. It's rather like reaching that third level of the learning process. There are any number of ways to describe the underlying physical process, and there's a tendency to get all balled up in the semantics. No matter the terminology used, I think the end goal is that "unconscious competence" level of execution. At least that's what I'm striving for.


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## bseltzer

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't shoot spots of any kind. I'm the only sane person here


Says the man who cold cocked himself on the line twice.... :grin:


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## Mahly

For what it's worth, I LOVE indoor spots!!!

Back on topic, while I find it beneficial to shoot something like a string trainer, for me it never quite translates to how it works with a real bow.
Beneficial, but how much?

Unrelated, but using "better" technique, I have found a bizarre issue...some kind of nerve pinch or something going on. Drawing evenly with 3 fingers and a thumb, I get "shocks" in the palm of my hand (makes a smooth draw a bit difficult, but nothing that feels like it's causing damage...dealing with it for now).
Anyone else ever had that? Does it go away with development?
If not, suggest an alternate technique, or I may just have to go back to a tight fist grip, and make it work.


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## Padgett

n7709k, I read your question again and and I really didn't answer it. You are correct, I absolutely must commit to a specific release and firing engine and use it 100% of the time to get to my peak performance. I choose to do this during certain times through out the year and during those times I don't sway away and it really tightens up my shooting and allows me to feel everything working perfectly and nothing out of place and this is when I have had some of my best performances. 

I just choose to not treat all of my year this way, I have some periods of down time during the year during hunting season and winter where I can work on things and get in my volume shooting where I allow myself to use more releases and methods.


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## Padgett

Now, here is the question that I have for you. In all the years I have shot for the most part I will be using one specific method and one release but in the last year I have had about 7 individual weeks where I have shot around 400 to 500 arrow during those weeks and not missed a x and not one time was I just using one release or firing engine. I had 4 or 5 of these weeks in the late winter early spring this year and in early october this fall I believe I had two of these weeks where I simply didn't miss. I have never shot this good for extended periods of time when I was only using one release or method, sure I have had a awesome day from time to time but not for weeks at a time.

Is this a bad thing?


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## cbrunson

Mahly said:


> For what it's worth, I LOVE indoor spots!!!
> 
> Back on topic, while I find it beneficial to shoot something like a string trainer, for me it never quite translates to how it works with a real bow.
> Beneficial, but how much?
> 
> Unrelated, but using "better" technique, I have found a bizarre issue...some kind of nerve pinch or something going on. Drawing evenly with 3 fingers and a thumb, I get "shocks" in the palm of my hand (makes a smooth draw a bit difficult, but nothing that feels like it's causing damage...dealing with it for now).
> Anyone else ever had that? Does it go away with development?If not, suggest an alternate technique, or I may just have to go back to a tight fist grip, and make it work.


Yep. Happens with me sometimes. I think it might be early signs of carpel tunnel. Another guy I shoot with, went through it.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> Yep. Happens with me sometimes. I think it might be early signs of carpel tunnel. Another guy I shoot with, went through it.


Well, I've had Carpel and Cubical surgery and never once did I have "shocks." Thumb and first two finger, Carpel (wrist), lose feeling, drop things. Cubical (elbow), ring and little finger (mine felt ice cold).


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## Mahly

I've got no other symptoms of CT. I do have abnormally large hands. I'm hoping it's just new and different, and my body will adapt.


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## N7709K

Padgett said:


> Now, here is the question that I have for you. In all the years I have shot for the most part I will be using one specific method and one release but in the last year I have had about 7 individual weeks where I have shot around 400 to 500 arrow during those weeks and not missed a x and not one time was I just using one release or firing engine. I had 4 or 5 of these weeks in the late winter early spring this year and in early october this fall I believe I had two of these weeks where I simply didn't miss. I have never shot this good for extended periods of time when I was only using one release or method, sure I have had a awesome day from time to time but not for weeks at a time.
> 
> Is this a bad thing?


Do you feel that the lack of extended exceptional shooting with one release is do to only shooting one release? or do you feel that it highlights the level of mastery of that one release? 

I'm of the belief that if you master one shot to the point where it simply happens you are better off all around. Shots just happen and you can put the effort into other aspects; when you get into pressure situations the shots still just happen, you don't revert to a different shooter....


In regards to why indoor is the main focus.. indoor is the only venue that revolves solely around making the same shot each and every time; outdoors doesn't, field doesn't as the terrain changes the dynamics of the shot as do the elements, 3d provides a different tempo and enough time between shots for everything to reset. You cannot shoot a 30x if things aren't the same- cannot shoot a 600 fita with things aren't the same... Blue face only makes your game sloppy; if you truly want to get better blue face gets brought out the week before indoor nationals or sectionals, maybe for league once a week, but thats it. The game is one of who can shoot; not who can work and read the conditions best....


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## Padgett

You know n7709k, I have only been a good shooter for a short time and I don't want to just be a good shooter. I really want to be something special and to me closing off my mind and just doing what I am doing right now for the nest 5 years to me is a huge mistake. I watch guys do this all the time and their progression stops hitting walls, I just don't want to stop progressing and right now my progression has been pretty consistent.

I know it is a fine line between wasting time when at the range and I have done my fair share, I know what it means to shoot a bad shot and blame it on a release and change to a different one and this is mental weakness shining through. I also know what it means to have specific drills where you use more than one release to compliment those lessons that hinge shooting has to offer and that is what I am doing this time of the year. 

My thoughts are changing, just a few weeks ago I went back and did a search for my name and read through a lot of my comments here on archery talk and it was neat to see how much I have changed over time mentally. I know that I mention some of the stories here that stick out as my WOW moments when things clicked in my mind but there are many other very subtle changes over time also.

You totally have me thinking about myself and what I am trying to accomplish on a daily basis so I am off to the range, my school day is over. I am looking forward to banging some x's after dealing with junior high kids all day.


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## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> ok is everyone still having fun? so if you like 3d it should make execution of the release indoors the same.correct?





SonnyThomas said:


> Yep. Loosely, you just "haul back and shoot."





bseltzer said:


> Says the man who cold cocked himself on the line twice.... :grin:


Well, possum trapper suggested there was a difference, thinking 3D and Indoors. That's the problem, thinking. The best shot you have in your quiver is the one you don't think about. You just shoot it.


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## N7709K

Looking at it that way doesn't get you anywhere; in say 5 years, but even one year your shot will have matriculated to a new level and have been refined. A year later your shot will be at a point for more refinement... and so on until you reach the final product; I've been shooting some form of the same shot for 3 years now and its been refined along the way. When you hit a wall its time to step back and evaluate the process as a whole and find what aspects of form are faltering and causing the hangup. The progression will go in blocks; make a change, scores dip and then plateau at a higher level.... another change is made, process resets, etc etc and so on through out the process until you reach your potential. At that point you won't see progression in scores; consistency of scores will come together and the frequency of your high scores comes up. 

There isn't pick one shot, do absolutely nothing to it, and commit for the long term.... its settle on one shot to refine and master. 

some of the best advise i've ever been give is this "just shoot the damn bow, they'll tell you when you've won later". You aren't there to shoot 30 arrows and walk away with a victory; you aren't there to shoot 120 arrows and walk away with a victory. You are there to shoot the bow until they tell you to stop shooting.... personally i'd rather shoot the same shot for the duration than hit a wall in the middle and need to change things to get through...

flogging the bale gets you no where... and we've all been guilty of that. Its a bad habit to get into; its a lack of discipline and lack of the mental approach. For me its one of those things where you the process you learn is universal; but committing to learn on a singular release makes perfecting the process smoother. I'm not saying I don't shoot other releases; i have and I do, but when i am actively training i stick to my ht pro and thats it...


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## possum trapper

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, possum trapper suggested there was a difference, thinking 3D and Indoors. That's the problem, thinking. The best shot you have in your quiver is the one you don't think about. You just shoot it.


well how many hang up mentally because they don't have the yardage nutted or they don't think they do?There is no question imo once you nock a arrow no matter what venue you are at the exact same intentions should be in your head but often times they are not


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## ron w

we can't stop conscious thought, just the attempt to block it out, is supporting evidence that we cannot stop it. it takes that same conscious thought, to attempt to block it out ! 
that is why we train our subconscious to run the shot, it works exactly the same every time it works and once it's programed, if you leave it alone to do it's job, it isn't distracted by conscious thought that isn't directed towards it.


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## possum trapper

ron w said:


> we can't stop conscious thought, just the attempt to block it out, is supporting evidence that we cannot stop it. it takes that same conscious thought, to attempt to block it out !
> that is why we train our subconscious to run the shot, it works exactly the same every time it works and once it's programed, if you leave it alone to do it's job, it isn't distracted by conscious thought that isn't directed towards it.


like ive asked a zillion times what are we doing to train our conscious mind??You know the one that can bite everyone in the butt when they announce "this is your first scoring end" or when someone is trying to get into your head while during the competition.

Its a proven fact that most can shoot better by themselves or during league night but when it counts what do most do?Their scores go down.Why is that?Did their subconscious forget how to ride the bike?NO I don't think so because after the tourney they go right back to their backyard and pound away.

If the conscious mind doesn't try to get your attention or if you keep it on a certain subject it will not bother you.

you know the 2 guys on your shoulders?the good guy on your left should and your devil on the right.Wonder which causes you the most issues??That's right you guessed its the devil the conscious mind telling you to do this or say "it will go in the middle just let it go".....He is the one pointing to the gutter most of the time.

So get him on a short leash and you will be much happier no matter if your shooting or on a plane ride


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## SonnyThomas

Still, it's training the mind. One thing should be on your mind, shooting your best shot each and every time. Doesn't matter if Dave Cousin is on one side of you and Reo Wilde on the other side of you. You're there for one thing, shooting your best shot. Blasting radio, someone throwing tin cans, people talking...and the more times you put yourself on the line in higher profile events can't hurt.


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## ron w

in my opinion, you can't doo much to train" your conscious mind, beyond having the discipline to keep your train of thought on what you are doing at the time.
we can however, train our subconscious to function despite outside interference and it will always function better , if the conscious mind is reading from the same book, so to speak, as in my opening statement. 
the more well trained the sub conscious is, and the more reliably it's self-running process, is ingrained into the mission at hand, the better it will run despite these outside disturbances.
the idea here, is that the mission in training is not to teach the conscious to leave the subconscious alone in it's operations, but to strengthen the sub conscious process, to the point that the distractions have less effect, on it running reliability.
the better that shot process runs by itself, the less there is to do to make it run and the only conscious input to that running, can then be the decision to let it run, because the shot s proceeding well, or stop it, because the shot isn't proceeding as it should. 
the first condition should be automatic and really not even thought about, it should be expected, that the shot runs well, because it has been trained to run well. the second condition, should actually be the only conscious activity that would distract the shot process internally, with that interruption, being followed by a let down. 
there in that last statement, lies the key element. if you internally distract the shot process enough to make it stall, or hesitate, you should let down, completely abandoning that whole train of events. either the entire shot is allowed to run to fruition without distraction, or the entire shot is abandoned and started over. anything in between, only serves to confuse the sub conscious process and weaken it's confidence to run reliably.
if you are talking about people who try to distract you, while you are executing a shot, that is just plain rude and they should be told to shut up.


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## ILOVE3D

ron w said:


> in my opinion, you can't doo much to train" your conscious mind, beyond having the discipline to keep your train of thought on what you are doing at the time.
> we can however, train our subconscious to function despite outside interference and it will always function better , if the conscious mind is reading from the same book, so to speak, as in my opening statement.
> the more well trained the sub conscious is, and the more reliably it's self-running process, is ingrained into the mission at hand, the better it will run despite these outside disturbances.
> the idea here, is that the mission in training is not to teach the conscious to leave the subconscious alone in it's operations, but to strengthen the sub conscious process, to the point that the distractions have less effect, on it running reliability.
> the better that shot process runs by itself, the less there is to do to make it run and the only conscious input to that running, can then be the decision to let it run, because the shot s proceeding well, or stop it, because the shot isn't proceeding as it should.
> the first condition should be automatic and really not even thought about, it should be expected, that the shot runs well, because it has been trained to run well. the second condition, should actually be the only conscious activity that would distract the shot process internally, with that interruption, being followed by a let down.
> there in that last statement, lies the key element. if you internally distract the shot process enough to make it stall, or hesitate, you should let down, completely abandoning that whole train of events. either the entire shot is allowed to run to fruition without distraction, or the entire shot is abandoned and started over. anything in between, only serves to confuse the sub conscious process and weaken it's confidence to run reliably.
> if you are talking about people who try to distract you, while you are executing a shot, *that is just plain rude and they should be told to shut up*.


It happens all too often I have found. Some of the time it's just people who don't know any better but sometimes it is your competitors, people who are really trying to distract you. I make it a point to not talk out loud while behind the line and have suggested to others being noisy be quiet while there are people on the line shooting. Yes, I know we are to learn and ignore most of that stuff but like you Ron, I think it is just plain rude.


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> Yes. You lock outside fingers and let the index relax.(hinge) The string comes off the stops and the release fires itself. Much less muscle movement. It's a fairly popular shooting style. I've tried it, but don't care much for it. It works the same with a thumb trigger, only you lock your thumb and outside fingers, then relax your index.
> 
> Pulling harder often slows down movement for me, so I prefer pulling over relaxing.


This also works with a thumb release. You have to get use to this, practice, practice. I tried it with my MX2, cold and cold outside. Now, the MX2 is one I have to hang on to and then trying to relax the index finger. Weird is a word to describe it. Practiced and yeah, it could very well work...cheating the hinge...cheating the thumb release  Tried the relaxed "thing" and got some to go in, but I had such a nice target going. Four more 9s, two right and two well low  Yeah, I should have practiced this "relaxed thing" first, but still..

Before and after.....


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## bseltzer

OK, so here's my story, and I'm sticking with it... 

The conscious mind is what let's us identify what we are doing, what works, what doesn't and why. It's job is observation, analysis, synthesis and planning. It thirsts for input and if deprived, of novelty and long enough, it will happily supply it's own stimulation. Without it, none of us could ever construct the mental model of any complex behavior, let alone one as specialized as shooting a bow accurately. However, once a behavior has been ingrained to a sufficient degree, It is the subconscious mind that id best able to reproduce a pattern simply because it is no where near as restless and far more closely attuned to the physical body than it's more aware cousin. In a nutshell, it's the coniving consciousness that allows us to develop a pattern that best serves a particular need nd it's the automaton unconscious that's best suited to playing back a pattern with precision. You need them both.

But not when you're applying the skill to a specific task whether it's winning a competition or putting meat on the table. The last thing you need at moments such as this is a chatty consciousness in your ear with all sorts of irrelevant observations and ideas. True, you can't just shut it off completely, but there is a sort of mental Akido that can be employed to redirect it's energies. How that's done is different for every individual, and there's really no sanguine advice I can offer about how exactly do do this. For me personally, I try to do what I call shooting in the third person. That is, I let my conscious mind become an observer, to just step back and watch the show without comment. That's usually enough to keep it far enough out of the way to allow my subconscious mind to do it's job without undue interference. It does happen that some outside influence demands too much of my "observer's" attention, and when that occurs, I try to calmly mitigate the distraction. 

Now I know all this probably sounds like some new age, Dr Phil poppycock. Fair enough. But the metaphor works for me, so what the hey... ?


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## SonnyThomas

I don't know. I argue with me and myself quite a bit


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## possum trapper

SonnyThomas said:


> Still, it's training the mind. One thing should be on your mind, shooting your best shot each and every time. Doesn't matter if Dave Cousin is on one side of you and Reo Wilde on the other side of you. You're there for one thing, shooting your best shot. Blasting radio, someone throwing tin cans, people talking...and the more times you put yourself on the line in higher profile events can't hurt.


Ive shot with both of them on each side of me and your right just like Hoosiers the rim is still 10ft put the conscious mind on a leash and get it done


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## Padgett

I wanted to say thanks to N7709k, I really wasn't expecting this thread to be something that affected me but it has. Jacob made a point to call me out and force me to take a step back in my thinking about myself and what I was doing and I finally listened. For the second day in a row I have experienced some of the best shooting of my life and it has been a totally awesome experience.

To me this is what archery talk is all about, I know I offer a lot of suggestions an coaching to people all the time but it was awesome for me to once again benefit from somebody I have never met in person. I totally owe Jacob a Texas Roadhouse Steak some time when we meet up at a shoot in the future.

Thanks


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## possum trapper

Padgett said:


> I wanted to say thanks to N7709k, I really wasn't expecting this thread to be something that affected me but it has. Jacob made a point to call me out and force me to take a step back in my thinking about myself and what I was doing and I finally listened. For the second day in a row I have experienced some of the best shooting of my life and it has been a totally awesome experience.
> 
> To me this is what archery talk is all about, I know I offer a lot of suggestions an coaching to people all the time but it was awesome for me to once again benefit from somebody I have never met in person. I totally owe Jacob a Texas Roadhouse Steak some time when we meet up at a shoot in the future.
> 
> Thanks


good deal!


----------



## Joe Schnur

Spent some time with my coach set up an HBC properly first time I actually used back muscles to properly execute back tension . Hand relaxed pull click happens et aim keep pulling with back elbow rotating around shoulder and bang the shot goes off . No finger movement required nothing it just goes off. Did not believe it worked that way but I am now hooked


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## ride394

Joe Schnur said:


> Spent some time with my coach set up an HBC properly first time I actually used back muscles to properly execute back tension . Hand relaxed pull click happens et aim keep pulling with back elbow rotating around shoulder and bang the shot goes off . No finger movement required nothing it just goes off. Did not believe it worked that way but I am now hooked


How dare you say that! You can't possibly fire a hinge without relaxing/tightening fingers...


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## Padgett

Pure back tension is a really cool thing and I still enjoy shooting with it from time to time when training so enjoy your shooting. 

I don't know if it has been discussed but one thing that I do along with squeezing my rhomboids to shoot with pure back tension because I have always had trouble squeezing my back muscles for the duration of a shooting session, i expand my chest. Just sitting here at my computer I put my arms up like I was shooting and squeezed my muscles and felt the sensation and then I did the expand my chest and the same basic action happens but to me it is so much more easy. I will say that when I do either of these methods they are very subtle and very hard to detect and you wouldn't be able to tell if I was telling myself to squeeze back or expand my chest. I think it is very related to the soft had or hard hand that n7709k mentions from time to time and when you hold your breath and also squeeze your back muscles your chest can be very tense and not let things happen, by telling your chest to expand it softens every thing up and allows the back muscles to do their job without being held up.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, like I said I only train with pure back tension on a limited basis and it is not my primary method.


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## Bees

Joe Schnur said:


> Spent some time with my coach set up an HBC properly first time I actually used back muscles to properly execute back tension . Hand relaxed pull click happens et aim keep pulling with back elbow rotating around shoulder and bang the shot goes off . No finger movement required nothing it just goes off. Did not believe it worked that way but I am now hooked


Although it is do-able, I find the hard wall cam bows are not doing me any favors with this technique.

When I shoot a Hoyt Tribute with Accuwheels (soft wall) I find it easier to shoot the technique.


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## N7709K

hard hands/soft hands don't really have anything to do with how the back is engaged during the shot process... the hands are an aspect of the shot but they don't change the overall dynamic of how the shot goes. When i talk about the contraction of the back coupled with the expansion of the chest I am talking about simply that; when the back contracts and the shoulders come together (release side shoulder rotates down and back around the spine causing the release side elbow to also move down and back) the chest will expand. When the shot breaks the halves move apart; the release side comes down and back, the bow side moves back and down as well. Rhomboids and lats are what I engage during my shot process... not saying that is correct, simply stating what I use and the method that my coach has settled on for me.

The back is engaged to fire the release or it isn't; there isn't this "pure back tension".... if the back is the primary force executing the shot you are using back tension. If you are holding the bow at full draw and rolling the release, you aren't using back tension; its simple as that.


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## ArcherXXX300

I've been struggling lately and noted a few things after going back to blind bail for 4 days, I figured I'd shoot at a target today, it wasn't long before shots felt like crap again(and it was a bad idea). I removed my lens which I haven't done in a long time and noted that the shots seemed to feel much better (just a confidence sight picture/movement thing). But anyway, I just watched core archery DVD again and Larry Wise, who I saw personally for coaching in Oct said to keep even pressure with all fingers on the hinge, yet I find that is difficult for me to do and have zero understanding in all reality with my experience in how I'm going to get the rotation needed to fire the hinge purely from my back...back to the blind bail for a full month....yet this goes against what he told me about pulling hard into the wall of the bow. I'm so irritated I'm about ready to quit. My good feeling shots always came from relaxation of the hand and forearm/index finger at full draw and always provided a surprise release. I hate to say it, I personally think I have TP...but it is MUCH worse on 3 spot, I just can't seem to hold and wait for a shot on that dang target.


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## Joe Schnur

Sorry to say but it is not a short trip back depending on the severity of target panic but don't give up when you get there it is wonderful


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## ron w

if you're have trouble " squeezing" your rhomboids together against the bow's holding weight, it's most likely that you haven't spent enough quality time at the blind bale, honestly and consciously concentrating on the musculature activity that produces the squeeze. when it is ingrained well and correctly, you will have a feeling of doing nothing, to load the tension that it requires, as you aim.
it must run by itself, that is to say, you should not even have to think, "squeeze my rhomboids"....that activity should happen automatically as your conscious mind, sees the sight picture settle around the center of the bull.
it is the conscious sight of this picture, that triggers the subconscious to command the rhomboids to engage the activity that produces the rotation needed.
that is what I mean, when I say, "you should not have to be thinking, ("OK go"),... that thought process should be a given and not have to be consciously activated, the only conscious thought should be the evaluation of how the shot is running and whether or not to stop it, all positively oriented actions should be generated as a matter of "taken for granted procedure"...expected to happen because you are at the shooting line. 
ideally, you should feel the tension in your shoulders while concentrating on the X, but beyond that , the shot should break, with a feeling that you did nothing deliberately, to produce the necessary action that produces the shot. only then, is the release execution, truly sub conscious.


----------



## EPLC

bseltzer said:


> The last thing you need at moments such as this is a chatty consciousness in your ear with all sorts of irrelevant observations and ideas. ?


This explanation is as good as I've ever read. Now to find that Akido... Hmmm


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## Rick!

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I've been struggling lately and noted a few things after going back to blind bail for 4 days, I figured I'd shoot at a target today, it wasn't long before shots felt like crap again(and it was a bad idea). I removed my lens which I haven't done in a long time and noted that the shots seemed to feel much better (just a confidence sight picture/movement thing). But anyway, I just watched core archery DVD again and Larry Wise, who I saw personally for coaching in Oct said to keep even pressure with all fingers on the hinge, yet I find that is difficult for me to do and have zero understanding in all reality with my experience in how I'm going to get the rotation needed to fire the hinge purely from my back...back to the blind bail for a full month....yet this goes against what he told me about pulling hard into the wall of the bow. I'm so irritated I'm about ready to quit. My good feeling shots always came from relaxation of the hand and forearm/index finger at full draw and always provided a surprise release. I hate to say it, I personally think I have TP...but it is MUCH worse on 3 spot, I just can't seem to hold and wait for a shot on that dang target.


The book is way better than the DVD, in my opinion.
When you blind bail, is the shot break super effortless? If not, you're not achieving a proper fdp (full draw position) and you may have excess tension in your hands.
Sometimes, fdp can be found with a simple string bow. Figure out how to shoot it across the room until u get tired of chasing it. Then it's a simple transfer of bow and draw hand positions to your setup to get it in the ballpark. 

If the shot breaks great with your eyes closed but hangs up when they are open, you have created tension and need to relax. Figure out why you're tense, let go of it and pay attention to what works as you will be reminding yourself a lot when your not performing well.


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## ArcherXXX300

Rick! said:


> The book is way better than the DVD, in my opinion.
> When you blind bail, is the shot break super effortless? If not, you're not achieving a proper fdp (full draw position) and you may have excess tension in your hands.
> Sometimes, fdp can be found with a simple string bow. Figure out how to shoot it across the room until u get tired of chasing it. Then it's a simple transfer of bow and draw hand positions to your setup to get it in the ballpark.
> 
> If the shot breaks great with your eyes closed but hangs up when they are open, you have created tension and need to relax. Figure out why you're tense, let go of it and pay attention to what works as you will be reminding yourself a lot when your not performing well.


I've read the book several times and met the man in person who set my DL and FDP at a coaching session who watched my shot execution. I hadn't known my DL for a long time, I've shot short forever. The shot is completely effortless when blind bailing, I think it is a matter of seeing excess movement with the magnification and small pin size I'm running currently. The thing I noticed is the shot execution is different on a target and different on a 3 spot than a 5 spot. I have no idea where the pin is when the shot breaks and it is a MUCH more aggressive pull shot than what I shoot on a blind bail for whatever reason. I still shoot reasonably well on a 5 spot, but the shot execution has just felt like crap to me, it hasn't felt like a punch, it hasn't seemed conscious, but it's been a very aggressive pull shot which is not the shot I shoot blind bail.

I'm going to blind bail in my room for a month and not go to the archery shop at all.


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## PSE Archer

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I've read the book several times and met the man in person who set my DL and FDP at a coaching session who watched my shot execution. I hadn't known my DL for a long time, I've shot short forever. The shot is completely effortless when blind bailing, I think it is a matter of seeing excess movement with the magnification and small pin size I'm running currently. The thing I noticed is the shot execution is different on a target and different on a 3 spot than a 5 spot. I have no idea where the pin is when the shot breaks and it is a MUCH more aggressive pull shot than what I shoot on a blind bail for whatever reason. I still shoot reasonably well on a 5 spot, but the shot execution has just felt like crap to me, it hasn't felt like a punch, it hasn't seemed conscious, but it's been a very aggressive pull shot which is not the shot I shoot blind bail.
> 
> I'm going to blind bail in my room for a month and not go to the archery shop at all.


Blind bale is great, it will not fix your problem. Your problem is "trust". 

You know what you need to do. You know where you want the arrow to go. You need to get out of the way and let it happen. You will gain much more shooting the short game than blind baleing for a month. Usually too much tension is caused from over aiming and not trusting the sight picture. It's not what the eyes see, it's what the mind sees. If the mind notes your focus is on the X that is where it will go.


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## N7709K

if this an issue you are finding at all ranges or only certain ones; like 18m? by what you have written the main focus seems to be on score and putting arrows in the middle over running the same process all around. 

have you hung a target and alternated shots on target with blank bale shots? shoot one shot at the target face, one on blank bale, one on target, one on blank bale?


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## Padgett

I spent decades trying to force my arrow to hit dead center, it doesn't work and it isn't going to work. You must accept your current level of shooting, once you do this your shooting will be yours instead of you trying to force it to be somebody else's.

This is the key to you moving on to new levels of shooting, as long as you insist on forcing the pin to behave you will remain at the current level. The change is a slow one but as the months go by you will get smoother and your float will shrink and the shots will be fighter than ever before.

I have been going through this transformation for almost two years and every time I tackle something mentally that was bolding me back I get stronger but other things present themselves and I just keep eliminating them. I mention on occasion that when I first shot my first few 60x rounds that I was mentally exhausted by the end of each one of them. I was forcing them so hard shot after shot that I really didn't even get to enjoy the experience, this is no way to shoot but is the problem for so many people. They just can't let go of that level of success and they try to duplicate it over and over. I chose to let go of all of those control issues and simply moved on and I am so glad that I did because I am way better now and my shooting is stress free but at the same time more accurate.


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## EPLC

*A tale of 2 releases*

I've been shooting a TRU Ball Sweet Spot II 3 finger for approximately 9-10 years, both right and left handed. As such, I've never really shot a non-safety hinge since switching to lefty. I found the debate surrounding safety vs. straight hinge interesting so I picked up a used BT Gold here on AT. While not exact, these two releases are very close to each other in fit and feel. Granted, I've only had the BT Gold since Saturday but here's my first impression as compared to the safety version:

With my first shots with the BT Gold I found it easy to draw with equal pressure on my index, middle and ring fingers but at the speed the release was set I found it needed too much travel to fire. Even with the excessive travel the release was initially comfortable and produced smooth shot. When I adjusted to a faster setting I found myself using too much index pressure to draw as a fear of pre-fire must have kicked in. Firing it with the increased speed wasn't to my liking as I had lost the ability to balance the pressure between the fingers and my index had taken over the shot. I then slowed it down again using a caliper to measure the height of the half moon. After a couple of trial and error adjustments I think I got it close to where in needs to be for a balanced draw and finger pressure. I shot the BT Gold today for about 2 hours and while not really impressed with the grouping I was getting, I was happy with my good shots. My index finger is a problem because I need to build more trust into the entire process. 

When I switched to the Sweet Spot II I did not have to face these issues. I was easily able to get an equal balance between the fingers and fire it smoothly. While I still have a smoother shot with the safety release, I also realize that I may have peeked out with this release. I also understand that switching to a different process can be a two step forward, three steps back experience before the bugs are ironed out. In any case I see room for improvement and I intend on sticking with it at least until I can make a more educated and experienced decision.


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## Padgett

Eplc, I am so glad that you have the bt gold. Make sure that you let yourself do your training based on running a smooth firing engine and producing a really nice shot and not your scoring. I know you are really bad about keeping track of shot placement and scores but you have got to let go of the temptation and allow yourself to just work on producing really smooth perfect shots.

Good luck.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> Eplc, I am so glad that you have the bt gold. Make sure that you let yourself do your training based on running a smooth firing engine and producing a really nice shot and not your scoring. I know you are really bad about keeping track of shot placement and scores but you have got to let go of the temptation and allow yourself to just work on producing really smooth perfect shots.
> 
> Good luck.


Yes, it is hard for me as the gremlin's can run wild sometimes... but I'm working toward that end.


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## ArcherXXX300

N7709K said:


> if this an issue you are finding at all ranges or only certain ones; like 18m? by what you have written the main focus seems to be on score and putting arrows in the middle over running the same process all around.
> 
> have you hung a target and alternated shots on target with blank bale shots? shoot one shot at the target face, one on blank bale, one on target, one on blank bale?


I'd alternated blind bail or blank boss and shot 4 arrows at nothing and then the 5th arrow at a dot. I seriously haven't scored anything at all except for the district shoot I shot on Dec 6th where I ended up 3rd with a 300/45X...I didn't feel too bad about that because I hadn't scored in months. When I shoot short range I see so much less movement that the shots are executed with much more confidence.

I shot well at districts then got conned into shooting a vegas challenge by some of my friends the following day, it was a qualifying round then you got seeded and then it was head to head 3 arrow shoot offs. I shot terrible in qualifying but still qualified, then went head to head and won my first shoot off. Second shootoff for me was terrible, shot a super X...then I had 2 horrendous shots that were high fliers one in the 8 ring.

I shot a target the other day and noticed something else, I had BB'd for 4 days, I warmed up with 20 BB, then I decided to be an idiot and see if the shots felt the same on a 3 spot (which I hate). The shots were indefinitely not the same even though I wasn't attempting to score, the hold the movement it all sucked. I decided to take my lens out and see what happened (I've not removed the lens in forever). DANG the vegas face looks tiny with no magnification at 20yds through a 3/64" apature, but I shot 3 10's and the shot felt like my relaxed wait for it shot I shoot on BB. So I said screw 3 spot and shot at a 5 spot with the lens, shot 5 inside out X's but it wasn't the same relaxed shot, it was a very aggressive pull shot. Completely subconscious IMHO, no idea where the pin was when the shot broke, I also see WAY less movement on a 5 spot.

I'm trying to determine if I should shoot a hinge through relax and static tension in my back through relaxation of forearm and hand, or if I should learn to shoot that aggressive pull shot that I seem to shoot at targets on the blind bail.


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## N7709K

Spend a couple weeks on a blank bale getting the feel of drawing with more even pressures and getting the speed set where you want before you worry about shooting at a target face. Shoot the sweet spot for league while you're learning the new one and learning the process for it. Setting the release on the colder side isn't a bad thing and neither is learning to draw the release on the click side of the moon (set the speed so the release clicks as you hit anchor; serves as an audible reminder that the process was consistent).


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Yes, it is hard for me as the gremlin's can run wild sometimes... but I'm working toward that end.


I shot both of those releases for about a year each. I shot them both about equally well. Only difference was zero accidental fires with the sweet spot and much more confortable to shoot. ...... for me.


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## EPLC

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I'd alternated blind bail or blank boss and shot 4 arrows at nothing and then the 5th arrow at a dot. I seriously haven't scored anything at all except for the district shoot I shot on Dec 6th where I ended up 3rd with a 300/45X...I didn't feel too bad about that because I hadn't scored in months. When I shoot short range I see so much less movement that the shots are executed with much more confidence.
> 
> I shot well at districts then got conned into shooting a vegas challenge by some of my friends the following day, it was a qualifying round then you got seeded and then it was head to head 3 arrow shoot offs. I shot terrible in qualifying but still qualified, then went head to head and won my first shoot off. Second shootoff for me was terrible, shot a super X...then I had 2 horrendous shots that were high fliers one in the 8 ring.
> 
> I shot a target the other day and noticed something else, I had BB'd for 4 days, I warmed up with 20 BB, then I decided to be an idiot and see if the shots felt the same on a 3 spot (which I hate). The shots were indefinitely not the same even though I wasn't attempting to score, the hold the movement it all sucked. I decided to take my lens out and see what happened (I've not removed the lens in forever). DANG the vegas face looks tiny with no magnification at 20yds through a 3/64" apature, but I shot 3 10's and the shot felt like my relaxed wait for it shot I shoot on BB. So I said screw 3 spot and shot at a 5 spot with the lens, shot 5 inside out X's but it wasn't the same relaxed shot, it was a very aggressive pull shot. Completely subconscious IMHO, no idea where the pin was when the shot broke, I also see WAY less movement on a 5 spot.
> 
> I'm trying to determine if I should shoot a hinge through relax and static tension in my back through relaxation of forearm and hand, or if I should learn to shoot that aggressive pull shot that I seem to shoot at targets on the blind bail.


You're planning to do all this blind bailing and haven't decided what shot you want to use? I think you may have the cart before the horse. Perhaps you are trying to take on too much too soon and making too many changes all at once without a solid plan to keep you headed in the right direction.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> I shot both of those releases for about a year each. I shot them both about equally well. Only difference was zero accidental fires with the sweet spot and much more confortable to shoot. ...... for me.


And I may end up with the same conclusion... but I feel I have peeked with the Sweet Spot and need to at least try another... for now. I do see some advantage with the elimination of the safety step and I've never had any issues with pre-fire, but that was a long time ago.


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## N7709K

when you shoot aggressively are you tense on the release and in the arms or are you still relaxed?

shooting careful doesn't really get you anywhere; you are waiting for the shot to go off and hoping it goes off when your dot is sitting in the middle... instead you put the dot in the middle and run the shot; trust the process and focus on shooting good shots, when good shots happen the arrows go in the middle.


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## TDS

Just got my first back tension release and have been playing with it just using a string in the living room. When do most folks take the thumb off the peg? After establishing a balanced float or rite away after anchoring?


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## SonnyThomas

When I'm on target, into the aim part.


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## EPLC

N7709K said:


> Spend a couple weeks on a blank bale getting the feel of drawing with more even pressures and getting the speed set where you want before you worry about shooting at a target face. Shoot the sweet spot for league while you're learning the new one and learning the process for it. Setting the release on the colder side isn't a bad thing and neither is learning to draw the release on the click side of the moon (set the speed so the release clicks as you hit anchor; serves as an audible reminder that the process was consistent).


Ready to 'Rock & Roll'...


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## Padgett

I normally settle on the x very quickly just after coming to anchor and I prefer to very smoothly start releasing the thumb peg about a half second after the pin first settles on the x. I do not like removing my thumb quickly because it causes a harsh transition and the pin will jump around, I also begin my firing engine at the same time my thumb first leaves the peg so that there is a very smooth transition from releasing to running the engine.


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## Mahly

Padgett said:


> I normally settle on the x very quickly just after coming to anchor and I prefer to very smoothly start releasing the thumb peg about a half second after the pin first settles on the x. I do not like removing my thumb quickly because it causes a harsh transition and the pin will jump around, I also begin my firing engine at the same time my thumb first leaves the peg so that there is a very smooth transition from releasing to running the engine.


I copy what he's doing ;-)


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## N7709K

working with the morin will pay off in the long one

I don't have much of the thumb on the peg to begin with and there isn't a ton of pressure on the peg, so I don't have any sight movement from letting off the peg regardless of how fast I take the thumb off. That said, i wait until I have my dot in the middle to give the green light for things to happen...


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## Padgett

For me the second half of this season there has been one mental thing that has changed for me that has really helped, I KNOW WITH OUT A DOUBT THAT MY HINGE IS GOING TO FIRE". One of my biggest issues during the first few years of my hinge shooting was that I didn't really believe from shot to shot that my hinge was going to fire so I worried or thought about that all the time during the shot regardless of what I was trying to focus on it was still a concern.

One thing that I did that I think is a good thing for a beginning hinge shooter is I started my firing engine very early in my aiming right when the aiming began so that my firing engine had more time to run and hopefully fire within my good float window. For me this lead to very solid shooting and the ultimate I don't care what the float is doing from start to finish.

Now my hinge shooting has progressed and I am at a new level so I can wait a little more for my pin to really settle in the x and then start my engine by releasing the thumb peg, i am not waiting for it to necessarily be perfect but I am letting it settle for about a half a second longer inside the x and then I start my engine. 

The key to those of you that are just beginning is that I am only using the pin settling inside the x as a start of my engine, it isn't and should not be fire right now the pin is perfect. I already know that my arrow is going to hit perfect so I am just choosing to allow the pin to be nice and centered as I start my effort to fire the release nice and smoothly as not to pull the pin away from the x.


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## TDS

Thanks guys..


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## fanio

Good thread! Tons of great information.


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## TDS

Well my arrows and I survived the first 30 arrow session of back tension.:wink: Drawing the bow correctly is shaky at best rite now. The click scares the schmit out of me as well.. Hopefully time and practice will help with the anxiety.


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## TDS

I definitely never drew my bow back trying to keep the pinky side of the release in front of the index finger when using my thumb release. Hopefully this will get easier and feel more natural in time.


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## Mahly

TDS, if you set your hinge up for it, you don't have to have the pinky in front of the index, and the click shouldn't scare you.
Check out Padgett's articles on hinge set up with click.
I just started using them and it makes for a much more relaxed, and stress free shot.


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## TDS

Mahly said:


> TDS, if you set your hinge up for it, you don't have to have the pinky in front of the index, and the click shouldn't scare you.
> Check out Padgett's articles on hinge set up with click.
> I just started using them and it makes for a much more relaxed, and stress free shot.


OMG!!! I am such a rookie.. I forgot all about Padgett's blog.. I only shot 2 arrows after adjusting for even pressure and it was night and day.. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Mahly

Doing the same thing myself.


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## ArcherXXX300

I decided to shoot 50 BB shots with a stone cold hinge, then 50 aiming shots at 2yds making certain that I don't let the pin leave the center of the letter X and have been using the same pull method. Been hammering the same hole over and over, keep having to move my target around on the bag or I'll blow through the bag, then my clothes, then the wall and through the other wall....Bag target hung at closet door and about as far as I can get in my room to the closet door is 2.5yds or so


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## N7709K

TDS how do you have the click set? does it click when you settle into anchor or after?

2yds is better than nothing; the shot and the subconscious don't know how far you are shooting, for them a shot is a shot is a shot.... learn to shoot only one shot and you'll do fine when you start working it back to longer ranges


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## TDS

N7709K said:


> TDS how do you have the click set? does it click when you settle into anchor or after?
> 
> 2yds is better than nothing; the shot and the subconscious don't know how far you are shooting, for them a shot is a shot is a shot.... learn to shoot only one shot and you'll do fine when you start working it back to longer ranges


It was setting off at anchor or shortly there after. Now after adjusting to colder so I could draw with even pressure (only 2 shots though) my anchor feels more natural to thumb release so the click isn't as startling and shot execution feels more natural.


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## Suock

My Scott had the click and just anoyed me so I fliped it and felt better with out. When I got the Stan I got one without the click.


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## ILOVE3D

Suock said:


> My Scott had the click and just anoyed me so I fliped it and felt better with out. When I got the Stan I got one without the click.


I have to admit I had the same impression of the click. While aiming it would go click and scare the dickens out of me. Then I learned how to set it up properly where it clicks the moment I come to full draw and settle in. I'm pretty sure I can shoot without it but getting started it was nice to know I was at the beginning of the firing process. I used Padgett's article as well as the video by Griv on setting up the click. Here is the link to the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lwxnbrGAvw&list=PLuQaON7ehdecO82aFUzBYfHWH9lTWhDW0&index=10


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## N7709K

if you are going to use a click you want to set it so that the click happens when you reach anchor. too soon will cause shooting careful. Having the release click later brings up a few problems: movement of the release is needed to bring the release to click(rolling the release to the click and then settling in for the shot, working through the shot until the click and resetting the process, etc), the click will serve as a reminder the release is getting close to firing and you will learn to anticipate when it goes off, there is unneeded movement in the sight when the release clicks while aiming, the click may become the point in the shot when the shooter snaps the release (click bang).


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## Unk Bond

Hello
Try drawing to anchor with the release pointed at 10 O-Clock.
I learned this on the old style 1/2 moon cams. Can't get one to fire at 10 O-Clock. Unless you break your draw. or you have the release set really - really hot.

Drawing with the release and pointed at 10 O-Clock. On this angle if the release should have a problem and fire. Your release hand coming back on that angle is away from your face.
Now as you revolve the release towards 12 O-Cock. The closer you get to 12 it will fire faster drawing to anchor. 
[ Later


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## Mahly

I was doing just that. I found ( using Padgett's articles) that slowing the hinge down and pulling it level or 12:00 allowed me to speed up my shot by having it ready soon as I get to anchor.
The thumb comes off the peg as I anchor, the click tells me I did it right, and I just keep the engine going.
Eliminated the time from getting to anchor to the time I got to the click.
Doing it this way, the click isn't scary, it's comforting.
Click comes early, let down
Click comes late, let down
Click comes just as I lift my thumb off the peg tells me all is well.
Previously, I would come to draw, lift my thumb off the peg, then need to rotate to get to the click. This eliminates the rotation and insures my hand has hit the same anchor every time.
Different strokes for different folks, but I certainly like drawing "flat" with 3 fingers+thumb equally


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## TDS

Day 2 was a mixed bag.. Biggest struggle of the day was keeping consistent pressure with all fingers during the draw.. I had multiple draws with the click going off near the end of draw cycle, and others the click wouldn't go off until I either had slight rotation or pulled harder into the wall.. seemed like my most consistent draw was with the draw hand turned closer to thumb down and the bow arm slightly elevated.


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## Iowa shooter

N7709K said:


> if you are going to use a click you want to set it so that the click happens when you reach anchor. too soon will cause shooting careful. Having the release click later brings up a few problems: movement of the release is needed to bring the release to click(rolling the release to the click and then settling in for the shot, working through the shot until the click and resetting the process, etc), the click will serve as a reminder the release is getting close to firing and you will learn to anticipate when it goes off, there is unneeded movement in the sight when the release clicks while aiming, the click may become the point in the shot when the shooter snaps the release (click bang).


Are you on the "X" when you hit anchor?


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## N7709K

Iowa shooter said:


> Are you on the "X" when you hit anchor?


I don't shoot a click so things change a little bit in that i have more of a "window"... but i'd say for 75% of my shots my dot is on or in big 10 and the other 25% my dot is in the yellow when i hit anchor. I've had shot break early when i haven't been looking through the peep that have been i/o inners... I've had them happen in vegas even.


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## farside05

New to the hinge scene. Picked up a Black Hole Mini a week ago and finally went out to spend some time with it. I had a chance to try a Backspin a couple times but thought it was a little bulky for my smaller hands. I like the feel of the Black Hole Mini so far. Primarily wanted to make the change since I have a tendency to punch the trigger and also try to manage my float. 1st step was to try to get the thing set up as Padget advises. The release was a little colder than recommended and I wanted to try a little longer draw length since it seemed a bit shorter than using my wrist strap, so I did the DL change first. Once I lengthened the DL the release seemed hotter. Before the DL change I would come to anchor, drop the thumb, and still had to rotate the release a bit to get it to click. After the change the click would come just before the valley when drawing. I could still settle in, anchor, aim, and without really any conscious thought, the arrow was gone. A couple posts above its recommended that the click come a litter later (at anchor). I hate to mess with it since it seems so natural and I don't even have to think about what I am doing to get rid of the arrow. It wasn't punchy and I was just letting the shot happen rather than trying to muscle my pin back to the middle of my target. I must say that it was one of the most satisfying sessions of my short 10 months of shooting. The results looked pretty good to me too, especially considering it was my 1st time. Had one loose shot in this group, but all in all I am happy with it. Maybe not as good as the more experienced shooters, but as a rookie, it was better than Johnny Manziel's debut.

Questions for the gurus... 1) Does draw length really play that big of a role of how hot/cold the release is? 2) I'm comfortable with as hot as it seems now (click just before the valley), but is that too soon? Should I slow it down?


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## ArcherXXX300

farside05 said:


> Questions for the gurus... 1) Does draw length really play that big of a role of how hot/cold the release is? 2) I'm comfortable with as hot as it seems now (click just before the valley), but is that too soon? Should I slow it down?


DL is critical to hold, and DL is critical to transferring the holding to the back from the arms and release hand. Click should occur right at anchor IMHO.


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## N7709K

DL will change the effective speed of the release. If alignment is nonideal there isn't room for the movement needed to get a hinge to fire by means of having both halves engaged. When DL is too long there isn't room to bring the release side down and back during the shot cycle while having the chest expand; the shooter is fully extended going into the process. When DL is too short it becomes a game a carefully balancing the pressure so as to not blow shots out left with more pressure into the bow and pulling shots right will more pressure into the release side; releases tend to get set cold so the pressure can be "balanced" better and less accidental shots happen.


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## rmathes25

Excellent thread. Just tagging it for my reference later. I am planning to switch to a hinge soon and enjoy this read.

As much reading as I have been doing, I feel like I've already been shooting one for a while now, HA.


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## Unk Bond

Unk Bond said:


> Hello
> Try drawing to anchor with the release pointed at 10 O-Clock.
> I learned this on the old style 1/2 moon cams. Can't get one to fire at 10 O-Clock. Unless you break your draw. or you have the release set really - really hot.
> 
> Drawing with the release and pointed at 10 O-Clock. On this angle if the release should have a problem and fire. Your release hand coming back on that angle is away from your face.
> Now as you revolve the release towards 12 O-Cock. The closer you get to 12 it will fire faster drawing to anchor.
> [ Later


======Little add on.

One can fine tune there stabilizer end weight for more or less resistant.
That also helps the release to activate more consistent.

More end weight one can set the release colder to activate . [ Later


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## ron w

i'm finding, more and more that people don't understand how to use a click. 
with a click in place, there should be no aiming being done before the click sounds, other than general target acquisition and sight placement on the target. you don't need to set the click's orientation so that it sounds as you get to anchor, if you follow a couple simple rules. 
first, no aiming before the click, other than target acquisition and getting the pin or dot on the target. 
......then rotate to the click.......
......then start your hard aim and release execution. the idea, is to separate all the elements of your shot routine, into actions "before the click" and actions "after the click". 
in this condition, the only thing that should happen after the click, is the hard aim and release execution, nothing else and nothing more....just hard aim and release execution. none of the "after the click procedure", should start before the click and none of the "before the click" actions should be left to do, after the click.. 
the click should be looked at as the separator between anchoring and target acquisition as one phase, and the final phase that makes the shot break. when you mix the two phases is when the click, suddenly interrupts your shot concentration. there should be no real concentration until after the click sounds.


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## Padgett

To the guys in this thread that are just getting started I think you are getting some really good suggestions and guidance from a variety of guys helping out and you just need to keep getting in hours and hours and hours of shooting where you are developing the fundamentals that are going to take you on to new levels of shooting. Stay away from scoring rounds and just keep working on your execution of the shots and when you have a good day make sure and take a step back and look at what made it a good day and then learn how to repeat it every day.

Those of us who are shooting at a high level have learned how to execute every day and every shot for hundreds of attempts, good luck and keep working.


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## ArcherXXX300

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_jKCPwdbnQ

Just found this, it's from a guy here on AT...


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## Padgett

Just watched the video and it really was a good video and worth watching.


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## ArcherXXX300

Padgett said:


> Just watched the video and it really was a good video and worth watching.


Exactly...I think I'll go ahead and work on NOT dropping the thumb before anchor and continue through my shot execution process in the manner described in the video, I have the other 2 parts down. I believe my dropping the thumb before anchor and slowing my releases to ice level was an attempt to learn "True Back Tension" which has never worked for me, when I first shot a hinge BB for 30 days I never dropped the thumb before anchoring....I'll try this method as well as ditching the click again.


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## N7709K

dropping the thumb before hitting anchor doesn't have any advantages, its quite possible to induce tension into the hand in how and when the thumb is dropped from the peg. 

I haven't had time to check out the video... so i'm not sure if it covers setting release speed, but I prefer to set the speed so there shot takes a comfortable amount of time to break... not too long and not too quick; not so much a specific amount of time but for a specific feel of the shot timing. I don't like setting release speed on blank bale-- personal thing, but I feel that setting release speed while aiming at a face is the best option for getting the most accurate starting point.


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## Padgett

I wouldn't say that the video was something that a new shooter could watch and get all the information needed to get set up and shooting but he is a guy that made a little 4 minute video where he expressed some of the good things about hinge shooting in a good way where it made sense.

I'm with n7709k, for me feel is everything and when it feels right I am way better than I am when I am having to really work to get things done. When I have the hinge set up perfectly I can come to anchor and float a little and run my engine and the arrow just keeps banging the center of the x over and over. When I have it set up just close and it is a little slow I have to be so much more deliberate with my execution and this is where all of the little issues pop up and the misses start appearing.

Stress is something that I have started listening to really closely, when I am shooting really really good there is absolutely no stress in my mental approach to my shot because everything is running so smoothly but when I am having to work to execute the shot my stress level goes up ever so slightly because I am having to work hard to keep floating and also put so much work into running my engine smoothly and this makes the shooting very hard to keep nice and I end up missing some shots because I couldn't focus hard enough and make the shot happen.

I have learned by working on the "PERFECT SHOT" that when I am producing perfect shots there is no super focus going on and there is no overly big mental effort to produce that perfect shot. Perfect shots for me happen when I remind myself of the job to be done and I execute that job from start to finish from the time I load my bow with the arrow all the way to the follow through.


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## EPLC

Ok, here's my main issue with straight hinge releases: Varying speed. This is not a new issue with me as it is the reason I went to a safety hinge at least 10 years ago. I apparently am not getting a consistent starting point, and/or I'm doing something in my setup to cause inconsistent travel issues. I'll be shooting just fine and wham... premature execution! Some shots are difficult to execute while still others feel just right. Setting the release slow does not help... setting it hot causes my index and thumb to create issues. I do like the straight hinge as my good shots are very good but dealing with the flyers is difficult. Granted this has only been a short journey this time around, but these are not new issues as I've shot various hinge releases throughout my entire archery life. Also, my choice of firing engine doesn't matter as this issue happens no matter which method I choose.


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## Garceau

Well as you stated - something isn't the same from one shot to another.

For me its almost always my back elbow position, which loads up or doesn't load up my true back tension. Under pressure I wasn't getting the back side of me extended enough and fighting the hinge.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Ok, here's my main issue with straight hinge releases: Varying speed. This is not a new issue with me as it is the reason I went to a safety hinge at least 10 years ago. I apparently am not getting a consistent starting point, and/or I'm doing something in my setup to cause inconsistent travel issues. I'll be shooting just fine and wham... premature execution! Some shots are difficult to execute while still others feel just right. Setting the release slow does not help... setting it hot causes my index and thumb to create issues. I do like the straight hinge as my good shots are very good but dealing with the flyers is difficult. Granted this has only been a short journey this time around, but these are not new issues as I've shot various hinge releases throughout my entire archery life. Also, my choice of firing engine doesn't matter as this issue happens no matter which method I choose.


That's because your mind will adjust to the heat/cold of the release setting in about 50-100 shots and you're right back where you started. The setting of the release (as I noted several responses ago) has nothing to do with how quickly it will go off once your mind adjusts to it. That's why all this talk about release settings is fairly useless even though it gets talked about constantly. The speed of the release setting (after the mental adjustment period) only has to do with how much pressure you can put on each finger during the draw. Bottom line, our mind is a lot smarter than we are. 

Sounds to me like the only way you are going to prevent the mis-fires is to shoot a thumb button.


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## EPLC

Garceau said:


> Well as you stated - something isn't the same from one shot to another.
> 
> For me its almost always my back elbow position, which loads up or doesn't load up my true back tension. Under pressure I wasn't getting the back side of me extended enough and fighting the hinge.


I am aware I have an inconsistent elbow... I'll work on that and see if it helps. Thanks for the reminder. 



Lazarus said:


> That's because your mind will adjust to the heat/cold of the release setting in about 50-100 shots and you're right back where you started. The setting of the release (as I noted several responses ago) has nothing to do with how quickly it will go off once your mind adjusts to it. That's why all this talk about release settings is fairly useless even though it gets talked about constantly. The speed of the release setting (after the mental adjustment period) only has to do with how much pressure you can put on each finger during the draw. Bottom line, our mind is a lot smarter than we are.
> 
> Sounds to me like the only way you are going to prevent the mis-fires is to shoot a thumb button.


Yes... total agreement on the setting being useless. Unfortunately thumb buttons produce similar issues once my brain learns them. Some of my best shooting has been done with them, but it is only very short lived. The only thing I have found to keep my mind out of trouble in this area is the safety hinge with the floating head. The speed stays the same regardless of hand position. Kevin's post on the elbow issue interests me though and I would really like to crack this nut...


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## EPLC

I shot close up video of my release and just watched it. It looks like I'm gripping the release too deep in the hand. My index is shorter than my middle finger and I'm wondering if this contributes to my issue?


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## SonnyThomas

Garceau said:


> Well as you stated - something isn't the same from one shot to another.
> 
> For me its almost always my back elbow position, which loads up or doesn't load up my true back tension. Under pressure I wasn't getting the back side of me extended enough and fighting the hinge.


The back/draw elbow has to be just so in order to establish a friendly pivot point (part of form). Why is this not pointed out, pivot point? It's crucial, period.... Excessive force (include time) is needed to overcome a improperly formed pivot point. Read Daniel Boone's Thread (as long as it is) about the hinge and think of all the "cheating" of the hinge. You don't worry about the pivot point if you're "cheating" the hinge. Pivot point in the "ball park." Something of this; Not quite "there" and a little tough to fire. "There" and easy to fire. Past "there," fast or premature shot.

Draw elbow anywhere and a index or thumb release will fire no matter what, period. BUT! You must establish a consistent position of the draw elbow or the shot will not be consistent. One of Bernie's sayings (maybe not exact); "I don't care how you do it as long as you do it the same way every time." The thumb release; People get to shooting, shooting good and liking it and think better form will be better, add it, and the arrow misses the established point of impact. They changed, the shot changed. Pretty dang simple.


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## SonnyThomas

Right here. My thumb release goes in my hand the same way each and every time. A hinge goes in the hand the same way each and every time. Learn it to as if part of you. Padgett and I PMed over fingers drawing evenly. The fingers don't have to be even, just evenly pull.

Forget the pinky finger. Hand was busted and that's how the pinky finger is, twisted, will overlap ring finger. 10 weeks, carried 5 pins in my billfold to tell me to control my rage.


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## EPLC

As I review today's training session I'm beginning to think my premature executions "may" actually be the shot I'm looking for. When these shots happen I'm really extended, and while premature, the shots are actually the result of an expansion... The expansion seems to me at the time to be unintentional but this may be exactly what I'm looking for instead of something to avoid. I may have to lengthen my loop to further investigate this.


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## SonnyThomas

If you're doing it now why change? A change may change more than you want. The "premature" shot, is it accurate or repeat point of impact? If not....


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> I shot close up video of my release and just watched it. It looks like I'm gripping the release too deep in the hand. My index is shorter than my middle finger and I'm wondering if this contributes to my issue?


Everybody's index finger is slightly shorter than their middle---you're over thinking again. :smile:


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> Everybody's index finger is slightly shorter than their middle---you're over thinking again. :smile:


You are absolutely right... I slowed down the release even more and I've been blank baling since my last post over an hour ago. The elbow, combined with my index finger seems to be the source of the speed inconsistency. Making sure I have good extension with the elbow back helps but I'm still timing the speed of the release with my index. At least identifying the issue gives me a chance to work it out.


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## ArcherXXX300

montigre said:


> Everybody's index finger is slightly shorter than their middle---you're over thinking again. :smile:


Now about release aid handle fit in the hand and speed the release or ease of which the release fires who's ring finger is shorter than the index finger? My ring finger is a good bit shorter than my index finger with my birdie finger (middle) being the longest. Palms completely flat my index is about 1/4" shorter than my ring finger...I'm over thinking too, but I've been struggling. Tried leaving the thumb on the post to anchor and then dropping and relaxing flattening and yielding hand/relaxing while pulling and it causes so much movement that it is ridiculously uncomfortable to me.


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## jwilson48

first of all...great thread guys. still waiting on my first hinge in the mail but i've been reading and watching videos until my eyes bleed. i don't really ever plan on becoming a serious competitor. i love shooting 3d, but i'm far too inconsistent at yardage estimations to ever compete with the big boys. i've had several shoots where i've shot over even, and many more where i've shot under. target panic and trigger punching has eaten my lunch more than once. a few years ago i had tp so bad i was shooting at my homemade target (3ftx4ft) and shot over it at 20 yards :mg:. that triggered something emotionally in me and i hung my bow up for quite a while after that. i am much better now, i usually don't have too many issues with tp until i feel pressure. sometimes the pressure is to fit that last arrow in as tight as the rest, sometimes it is someone watching me, sometimes its at a competition. i am hoping by learning a hinge properly i can further alleviate my issue with tp...time will tell.

my biggest question that nobody ever talks about. i've seen some guys shoot a hinge vertically (thumb facing ground) and some guys shoot horizontally, and some shooting in between. what is the correct way to come to anchor with a hinge? i've never shot a thumb trigger or any kind of hand held release. it has always been a wrist strap release for me.


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## ArcherXXX300

jwilson48 said:


> my biggest question that nobody ever talks about. i've seen some guys shoot a hinge vertically (thumb facing ground) and some guys shoot horizontally, and some shooting in between. what is the correct way to come to anchor with a hinge? i've never shot a thumb trigger or any kind of hand held release. it has always been a wrist strap release for me.


From what Larry Wise told me, the rotation coming from the back to fire the release can't really be accomplished without some finger manipulation with the back of the hand flat on the side of the face. The V that forms between your first and middle finger should sit on your jaw bone IMHO.


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## farside05

ArcherXXX300 said:


> ...who's ring finger is shorter than the index finger? My ring finger is a good bit shorter than my index finger with my birdie finger (middle) being the longest. Palms completely flat my index is about 1/4" shorter than my ring finger...


It is common for a male's index finger to be shorter than the ring finger. In women, it is more common for the index and ring fingers to be the same length. Of course there are exceptions, but that's the rule of thumb (or should I say rule of finger).


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## Bees

jwilson48 said:


> first of all...great thread guys. still waiting on my first hinge in the mail but i've been reading and watching videos until my eyes bleed. i don't really ever plan on becoming a serious competitor. i love shooting 3d, but i'm far too inconsistent at yardage estimations to ever compete with the big boys. i've had several shoots where i've shot over even, and many more where i've shot under. target panic and trigger punching has eaten my lunch more than once. a few years ago i had tp so bad i was shooting at my homemade target (3ftx4ft) and shot over it at 20 yards :mg:. that triggered something emotionally in me and i hung my bow up for quite a while after that. i am much better now, i usually don't have too many issues with tp until i feel pressure. sometimes the pressure is to fit that last arrow in as tight as the rest, sometimes it is someone watching me, sometimes its at a competition. i am hoping by learning a hinge properly i can further alleviate my issue with tp...time will tell.
> 
> my biggest question that nobody ever talks about. i've seen some guys shoot a hinge vertically (thumb facing ground) and some guys shoot horizontally, and some shooting in between. what is the correct way to come to anchor with a hinge? i've never shot a thumb trigger or any kind of hand held release. it has always been a wrist strap release for me.


there is no right way there is no wrong way.
there is my way, there is the other guy's way, and then there is the soon to be your way.
The last way is what is important to you, not my way or the other guys way..

Now go get a drinking glass and set it on the table, then go get an Identical drinking glass and fill it full of water and set it on the table.
Now pick up the empty glass with your release hand and then set it back down, then pick up the full of water glass with your release hand and then set it back down.

What has just happened? First your conscious mind thought pick up the glass, so you did but you were not consciously aware of what muscles in the hand and arm were used, and you are not consciously aware of how the muscles in the hand and arm were used to accomplish that task. you don't know how much harder your hand had to work to pick up the extra weight of the full glass.
your subconscious mind calculated it all out and did all of that for you, and it will calculate when and how to shoot the hinge release aid, or any other release aid for that matter. It will if you let it, you can snatch control away from your subconscious mind and take over that hand at any time, but if you do, don't expect to score well in any of the archery games..

so what you have to work out is how are you going to hold the release aid in your hand, your goal is to have the release aid track your rhomboid. when you squeeze your rhomboid correctly the angular contraction develops chest expansion, the chest expansion moves the shoulder, the shoulder moves the arm and hand, you want the release to move when your hand moves, when done correctly the hand moves in an arc around you body and hence the rotation needed to fire the hinge. so you want to come up with some way of leveraging the handle around the pivot point with the rhomboid being the driving force.

sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.

I think about moving my elbow around my head( my expanded Lan2 area), when I think about this, I am not thinking about my rhomboid, my hand or my release aid. what I am left with is a subconscious release of the arrow. 

for those that say, I am not doing anything with my release hand, nope not consciously, but that doesn't mean that your subconscious mind has left that hand static either. I suspect that everyone's subconscious mind is doing a lot with the hands and we can't know because it is subconscious. given time, eventually the sensors will be available and Apps will be written to monitor the human body and find out what muscles are being used by the subconscious mind during any activity... just like picking up the glass full of water I suspect there is going to be hand muscle movement measured when shooting the hinge.

You job is to come up with a though process to keep your conscious mind occupied, while your subconscious mind works out all the details on how and when to send the arrow down range. It will, if you just get out of the way and let it happen.. 

It's only taken me 12 years to learn how to get out of the way... good luck...


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## possum trapper

Bees said:


> there is no right way there is no wrong way.
> there is my way, there is the other guy's way, and then there is the soon to be your way.
> The last way is what is important to you, not my way or the other guys way..
> 
> Now go get a drinking glass and set it on the table, then go get an Identical drinking glass and fill it full of water and set it on the table.
> Now pick up the empty glass with your release hand and then set it back down, then pick up the full of water glass with your release hand and then set it back down.
> 
> What has just happened? First your conscious mind thought pick up the glass, so you did but you were not consciously aware of what muscles in the hand and arm were used, and you are not consciously aware of how the muscles in the hand and arm were used to accomplish that task. you don't know how much harder your hand had to work to pick up the extra weight of the full glass.
> your subconscious mind calculated it all out and did all of that for you, and it will calculate when and how to shoot the hinge release aid, or any other release aid for that matter. It will if you let it, you can snatch control away from your subconscious mind and take over that hand at any time, but if you do, don't expect to score well in any of the archery games..
> 
> so what you have to work out is how are you going to hold the release aid in your hand, your goal is to have the release aid track your rhomboid. when you squeeze your rhomboid correctly the angular contraction develops chest expansion, the chest expansion moves the shoulder, the shoulder moves the arm and hand, you want the release to move when your hand moves, when done correctly the hand moves in an arc around you body and hence the rotation needed to fire the hinge. so you want to come up with some way of leveraging the handle around the pivot point with the rhomboid being the driving force.
> 
> sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.
> 
> I think about moving my elbow around my head( my expanded Lan2 area), when I think about this, I am not thinking about my rhomboid, my hand or my release aid. what I am left with is a subconscious release of the arrow.
> 
> for those that say, I am not doing anything with my release hand, nope not consciously, but that doesn't mean that your subconscious mind has left that hand static either. I suspect that everyone's subconscious mind is doing a lot with the hands and we can't know because it is subconscious. given time, eventually the sensors will be available and Apps will be written to monitor the human body and find out what muscles are being used by the subconscious mind during any activity... just like picking up the glass full of water I suspect there is going to be hand muscle movement measured when shooting the hinge.
> 
> You job is to come up with a though process to keep your conscious mind occupied, while your subconscious mind works out all the details on how and when to send the arrow down range. It will, if you just get out of the way and let it happen..
> 
> It's only taken me 12 years to learn how to get out of the way... good luck...



ding ding ding

for all archers this should be the last thread you ever read and truly understand what he is saying.If you haven't experienced this you wont have a clue but if you have you have shot some awesome scores and probably didn't know what you were thinking about and the next time fell on your face because you let your conscious mind get to big......the harder you try the worse it gets.....NO the more you consciously think about what your doing the worse it gets

That's why the best coaches want you to have a so called mental check list as you go through your mental shot process as you shoot.its just a check off list....OBSERVE more than you JUDGE.If you JUDGE more than you OBSERVE you will become ocd with your aiming or muscles causing what people say over aiming and too much tension


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## EPLC

Bees said:


> there is no right way there is no wrong way.
> there is my way, there is the other guy's way, and then there is the soon to be your way.
> The last way is what is important to you, not my way or the other guys way..
> 
> Now go get a drinking glass and set it on the table, then go get an Identical drinking glass and fill it full of water and set it on the table.
> Now pick up the empty glass with your release hand and then set it back down, then pick up the full of water glass with your release hand and then set it back down.
> 
> What has just happened? First your conscious mind thought pick up the glass, so you did but you were not consciously aware of what muscles in the hand and arm were used, and you are not consciously aware of how the muscles in the hand and arm were used to accomplish that task. you don't know how much harder your hand had to work to pick up the extra weight of the full glass.
> your subconscious mind calculated it all out and did all of that for you, and it will calculate when and how to shoot the hinge release aid, or any other release aid for that matter. It will if you let it, you can snatch control away from your subconscious mind and take over that hand at any time, but if you do, don't expect to score well in any of the archery games..
> 
> so what you have to work out is how are you going to hold the release aid in your hand, your goal is to have the release aid track your rhomboid. when you squeeze your rhomboid correctly the angular contraction develops chest expansion, the chest expansion moves the shoulder, the shoulder moves the arm and hand, you want the release to move when your hand moves, when done correctly the hand moves in an arc around you body and hence the rotation needed to fire the hinge. so you want to come up with some way of leveraging the handle around the pivot point with the rhomboid being the driving force.
> 
> sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.
> 
> I think about moving my elbow around my head( my expanded Lan2 area), when I think about this, I am not thinking about my rhomboid, my hand or my release aid. what I am left with is a subconscious release of the arrow.
> 
> for those that say, I am not doing anything with my release hand, nope not consciously, but that doesn't mean that your subconscious mind has left that hand static either. I suspect that everyone's subconscious mind is doing a lot with the hands and we can't know because it is subconscious. given time, eventually the sensors will be available and Apps will be written to monitor the human body and find out what muscles are being used by the subconscious mind during any activity... just like picking up the glass full of water I suspect there is going to be hand muscle movement measured when shooting the hinge.
> 
> You job is to come up with a though process to keep your conscious mind occupied, while your subconscious mind works out all the details on how and when to send the arrow down range. It will, if you just get out of the way and let it happen..
> 
> It's only taken me 12 years to learn how to get out of the way... good luck...


Excellent post!


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## SonnyThomas

Gold Star for Bees.


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## ron w

we all have to learn what way works best. there are certainly established methods, that are used as a guide to get us working in the right direction and if we choose to, those "established methods" will work just fine for mist people. 
I have an index finger on my release hand, that will not bend at the middle knuckle. that knuckle, for all practical purposes, is gone, in my finger, it got chopped out in a woodworking accident with a jointer about 25 years ago. consequently, I had to relearn how to hold a hinge and run my execution, with out the use of my index finger. that may well be why is am pretty strong on traditional rotational back tension. I cannot vary finger pressures to facilitate the rotation and have learned to rely on pure back tension for the release's rotation.
the accident threatened my shooting, so that is when I started to seriously look into all this issue of release execution methods.
I can honestly say, that I doubt there are very many people who have researched this issue as completely as myself, besides hose who have actually developed and published materials about it.


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## ron w

Bees said:


> there is no right way there is no wrong way.
> there is my way, there is the other guy's way, and then there is the soon to be your way.
> The last way is what is important to you, not my way or the other guys way..
> 
> Now go get a drinking glass and set it on the table, then go get an Identical drinking glass and fill it full of water and set it on the table.
> Now pick up the empty glass with your release hand and then set it back down, then pick up the full of water glass with your release hand and then set it back down.
> 
> What has just happened? First your conscious mind thought pick up the glass, so you did but you were not consciously aware of what muscles in the hand and arm were used, and you are not consciously aware of how the muscles in the hand and arm were used to accomplish that task. you don't know how much harder your hand had to work to pick up the extra weight of the full glass.
> your subconscious mind calculated it all out and did all of that for you, and it will calculate when and how to shoot the hinge release aid, or any other release aid for that matter. It will if you let it, you can snatch control away from your subconscious mind and take over that hand at any time, but if you do, don't expect to score well in any of the archery games..
> 
> so what you have to work out is how are you going to hold the release aid in your hand, your goal is to have the release aid track your rhomboid. when you squeeze your rhomboid correctly the angular contraction develops chest expansion, the chest expansion moves the shoulder, the shoulder moves the arm and hand, you want the release to move when your hand moves, when done correctly the hand moves in an arc around you body and hence the rotation needed to fire the hinge. so you want to come up with some way of leveraging the handle around the pivot point with the rhomboid being the driving force.
> 
> sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.
> 
> I think about moving my elbow around my head( my expanded Lan2 area), when I think about this, I am not thinking about my rhomboid, my hand or my release aid. what I am left with is a subconscious release of the arrow.
> 
> for those that say, I am not doing anything with my release hand, nope not consciously, but that doesn't mean that your subconscious mind has left that hand static either. I suspect that everyone's subconscious mind is doing a lot with the hands and we can't know because it is subconscious. given time, eventually the sensors will be available and Apps will be written to monitor the human body and find out what muscles are being used by the subconscious mind during any activity... just like picking up the glass full of water I suspect there is going to be hand muscle movement measured when shooting the hinge.
> 
> You job is to come up with a though process to keep your conscious mind occupied, while your subconscious mind works out all the details on how and when to send the arrow down range. It will, if you just get out of the way and let it happen..
> 
> It's only taken me 12 years to learn how to get out of the way... good luck...


 it is exactly the function of the subconscious process, that allows us to have this "activity of doing something, without outwardly appearing to be doing something". it not only appears this way to bystanders, bit it appears this way to us, as well. when we do finally establish that good running subconscious process, in our release execution, it appears to us, that we did nothing to make the arrow leave. it's not that we actually did not do anything, it's just that we did not have to consciously process what we did, therefore, there is no internal record of the activity.


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## possum trapper

you can work on all you want in practice and do great but when you step on the line at a tourney or league night for some of you if you cant get your conscious thoughts under control you will not reach peak performance


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## Unk Bond

Hello All
Excellent post by Mr. Bees

Quote = sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.

===========I quiet agree first 100% 

Little thought here. 
The male likes to be in control by nature.
This brings on a male type command archer. That can't seem to turn the reins of aiming or making the shot over to his subconscious mind. They just haft to be in full control. [ Later


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## Bees

possum trapper said:


> you can work on all you want in practice and do great but when you step on the line at a tourney or league night for some of you if you cant get your conscious thoughts under control you will not reach peak performance


for sure all alone practice the scores are really good, good enough for me to be a competitor in my age bracket.
but when under pressure I find what works and what doesn't. 
How do I get under pressure? I have to get out of my comfort zone, 
Pay the money to shoot in a local league is a good way.
sometimes, I travel to a distant town and Pay money to shoot at a strange range.
You find out real quick if what your working on has merit, when you put yourself under pressure...


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## SonnyThomas

Unk Bond said:


> Hello All
> Excellent post by Mr. Bees
> 
> Quote = sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.


Can't be me. My wife tells me I don't have a conscious 

Worry on the brain and nothing will come together. Example; You're practicing your butt off, dang serious, having issues and what may be effecting you is something that happened a month ago is puttering in the back of your mind. It could be feeling anguish for kicking the dog for what rightly it deserved. On the other hand you can't practice with; "How am I going to get this elbow thing right or worrying over release things so overly discussed here." That's what practice is about, not just shooting good, but to resolve issues one issue at a time. You stick your elbow out there 100s of times for each position if necessary to find what works. If it takes a couple thousand shots, it takes a couple thousand shots. Rare is to fix or correct something overnight.


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## Unk Bond

Unk Bond said:


> Hello All
> Excellent post by Mr. Bees
> 
> Quote = sounds like everyone has trouble getting there conscious mind out of the way, to allow the subconscious mind to run the release.
> 
> ===========I quiet agree first 100%
> 
> Little thought here.
> The male likes to be in control by nature.
> This brings on a male type command archer. That can't seem to turn the reins of aiming or making the shot over to his subconscious mind. They just haft to be in full control. [ Later


Here you go its in my signature ha ha

Don't let archery " Play " with you
Think while practicing. :nod:
Turn off thinker,while performing :nod:


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## ron w

practice with a "mission".....
practice should be targeted towards developing the correct shot execution, not putting arrows in the middle of the bulls eye. it doesn't matter how many arrows go in the middle, if the score you're producing doesn't mean anything ore than practice and it does you no good, to put arrows in the middle, if you aren't working on a specific issue in your shot execution..


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## N7709K

i've always seen it as i can only do so much... and what am i better at, putting a dot in the middle or making the shot go off? I can put my dot on what i wanna hit and i can keep it there, so i learned and developed my system around that. Its like shooting guns, you commit the pull of the trigger to the subconscious because you need to actively aim and make the needed adjustments very quickly.


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## Padgett

But ronw, I have committed to perfect execution and the result is now I am banging the very center of the x. So I am not forcing my arrow to go there or willing it to go there or using super focus either, I am just executing really really good shots and the result is dead center or inside out x's most of the time. 

Deep down inside I really didn't expect this to happen, there was doubt. I did what you guys have told me to do and now I am expecting to see the arrow go to the center but I am doing that by just execution. I really can see why shooting at this high of a level eludes so many people for their entire career because it is so different than anything else in your life, the amount of trust that you have to have in your shooting from your form to your firing method to your ability to float on the x has to be 100% pure of any stupid doubts or control that you think you have to have.


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> But ronw, I have committed to perfect execution and the result is now I am banging the very center of the x. So I am not forcing my arrow to go there or willing it to go there or using super focus either, I am just executing really really good shots and the result is dead center or inside out x's most of the time.
> 
> Deep down inside I really didn't expect this to happen, there was doubt. I did what you guys have told me to do and now I am expecting to see the arrow go to the center but I am doing that by just execution. I really can see why shooting at this high of a level eludes so many people for their entire career because it is so different than anything else in your life, the amount of trust that you have to have in your shooting from your form to your firing method to your ability to float on the x has to be 100% pure of any stupid doubts or control that you think you have to have.


You've mentioned several times that you use different firing engines, sometimes in-between shots. I have to assume you are executing consciously and letting the aiming happen?


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## Reverend

tagged. 
A lot of great info in this thread. Might just qualify as a "Classic."


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## vito9999

Reverend said:


> tagged.
> A lot of great info in this thread. Might just qualify as a "Classic."


Think I gave read this post 5 or 6 times, yes it is a classic. No BS great discussions. High 5 to all the posters here.


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## Padgett

Wonderful thread and for me looking back through it helps to see the progression that I personally get to go through as the months go by, for me the winter months are spent inside shooting indoor where you really feel the shot. Then as the 3d season starts and the summer months show up I realize that all of the work spent in the winter allow me to shoot my hinge without hardly any thoughts at all, in fact this winter I really think that there were two or three big things that I came to terms with that have been a nice addition to my shooting.

1. n7709k mentioned the soft hand, That concept came up in a couple threads and it took me a while to actually work on it and then add it to my shooting but it did many positive things to my shot and is here to stay. It allows the hand to simply give the hinge permission to rotate in your hand without the hand battling against the hinge all the time.

2. Back tension preload, This showed up after I decided to actually spend a afternoon working on my draw length and it also instantly complimented my shooting in more than one area from my float to my firing method to the overall feel of strength during my shot.


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## Planner

Lots of good info to absorb as a new hinge shooter myself. Starting my hinge journey with a Scott Backspin. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cryptt

Rick! said:


> Hinge lesson 1: you will punch yourself in the face, once.
> Hinge lesson 2: don't draw in line with your face.
> Hinge lesson 3: draw on target. This saves range light fixtures or sending one 200yds into the woods.


Totally true.

And absolutely draw on target. I saw someone take out a heavy duty globe fixture that sent glass flying a good 100 feet in every direction.


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