# archery world cup stage 1 in ulsan,korea



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

just saw the official entry list and the USA is sending the following recurve archers: women..lindsey pian,katherine anderson,joy fahrenkrog, and karen scavotto...men are brady ellison, pete carney, tyler martin, and guy krueger....just wondering if these archers are all in the RA program and considered the best in the US right now??where is butch johnson,vic wunderle and jennifer nichols??(perhaps not available??)....the koreans and both chinas are sending their best archers (host korea is fielding 6 women and 6 men...all their gold medalists and world champions!!)....i believe the italians, england,india,australia and most other countries are also sending their best team...am surprised japan is not sending any team...oh well..i still await the results with bated breath!!


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> ....just wondering if these archers are all in the RA program and considered the best in the US right now??


jmvargas,

You can see US Current Rolling Ranking Llist at: 
http://www.thearcher.com/usarchery/rollingranking/

and

2007 USAT (US National Team) at : http://www.usarchery.org/html/2005USATRecurve.html

On your list, Pete is not on RA program and the rest of the archers are RAs.


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## AggieX10 (Mar 29, 2004)

Since funding is at a minimum and being that there are a lot of $$ tournaments in the U.S., The compound teams are sending people who do not have scheduling conflicts and can afford to go. I'm sure much of the same is the case with the top recurve shooters.


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## archerybob (Jul 2, 2003)

negative on australia guys we are sending SOME of our worlds team but the others are like the US team, taken from our national ranking. our mens compound team are exceptionally strong this year, with clint freeman, rob timms and pat coghlan.....go all aus team!!!!!


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## Hollywood (Oct 24, 2002)

Results after the first two distances for Compound Men and Recurve Women are up. 

http://www.archeryworldcup.org/

It has been windy but I'm not sure of the weather today.

-peace,
Hollywood


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

There was a scheduling conflict with the NFAA Indoor Nationals in Louisville this weekend.

The non RA men mostly went to Louisville. There may have been funding issues as well.

In Louisville.....

1. Vic
2. Butch
3. limbwalker


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

korean lady recurvers are awesome!! so far they have first 5 places after 102 arrows...leader shot 340 and 341 at 70m and 60m...best men compound score at 70m is only 339!!......


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

final of first day...korean ladies get top 6 places out of 79 women recurvers with the highest scoring 1366 and #6 a 1301....best US archer is karen scavotto #23 with 1264...katherine anderson is #59 with 1210...joy fahrenkrog is # 64 with 1198...lindsay pian is #66 with 1189......men's compound #1 out of 46 archers is martin damsbo of denmark with 1345...logan wilde is #5 with 1334..reo wilde is #14 with 1311...stephen schwade is registered but no score...philipines qualified 2 out of 4 in top 32 at #25 and #30.....2nd day is men's recurve and women's compound....we hope to qualify all 4 women compounders and our 2 male recurvers...good luck to all our archers!!!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

must have been windy given the low men's compound scores


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Jim C said:


> must have been windy given the low men's compound scores


It was very windy, but it looks like wind was not a major factor for the Korean recurve ladies.:secret:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

mbu said:


> It was very windy, but it looks like wind was not a major factor for the Korean recurve ladies.:secret:


could be several reasons-90M
different shooting times
different parts of the field
Reo Shooting 1311 tells me alot


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Jim C said:


> could be several reasons-90M
> different shooting times
> different parts of the field
> Reo Shooting 1311 tells me alot


Jim,

You are right about 90M - it is always a major factor in score differences in between men and women FITA scores, although Logan Wilde shot really well at 90M under these hard conditions.

Shooting time was the same (men compound and women recurve).

As far as the different parts of the field - based on FITA news, Korean ladies had the windiest part.


From the FITA website:
"...

A tricky, circling wind has kept blowing the whole day on the field at the Ulsan Munsu International Centre. Moreover, the temperature has been colder than expected for this time of the year in this area. Many archers have complained of their shooting being disturbed by these weather factors.

*In such conditions, specialists thought that there might be some surprises today on the field, especially concerning the Korean Recurve Women archers whose target positions are at the very left end of the field where the wind is even worse!
..."*


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

mbu said:


> Jim,
> 
> You are right about 90M - it is always a major factor in score differences in between men and women FITA scores, although Logan Wilde shot really well at 90M under these hard conditions.
> 
> ...


well I wasn't there so I can't argue but I know that a constant wind is not as bad as an intermittent gust but while the Korean women are clearly the best group of recurve archers, I would take Reo and his compound over any of them in an OR round:wink:


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

live results are on www.archery.org.com for those who are interested....


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

after 2 distances korean men have all 6 of their archers in the top 13 out of 88 men recurvers occupying the top 3...#5...#8 and #13..highest at 644 and lowest at 612...italy's frangilli and galiazzo are #4 and #7.....best US archer is ellison at #43 and 586..then krueger at #43 and 583..carney is #78 at 547 and tyler is #81 at 540....our 2 guys are #59 and #66....hope they can make round of 64!!.....womens compound top 2 is van natta and davis of the US at 679 and 669...fleury is # 13 at 649...philippines has # 5..#11..#12 and #33 out of 40 in women's compound...hope we can qualify all our 4 in the round of 32....korean women's compound have #2..#10 and #26(they're catching up in compound too!!).....


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

final second day...korean men get 5 out of top 6 places...frangilli is #5....highest is 1337(park)..worst korean is #11 at 1283....US qualified 2 of 4...krueger #36 at 1254 and ellison #41 at 1249...philippines did not qualify any and our mark javier was at #58 with 6 arrows to go but dropped to #67..pressure!!??...our other archer was #71 after starting strong at 90m...martin #79 with 1175 while carney was #80 with 1169 were the other US archers.....we qualified all 4 of our women compounders at #7..#10..#23 and #31(phew!)....US qualified all 3 also with van natta and davis #1 and #2 with 1372 and 1356...fleury was #12 with 1315.....korean also qualified all 3 at #5..#6 and #32( another phew!!)....individual and team matches next!!!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

wow, Jamie was at Louisville too-wonder how she made it over there in time


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim,

I was thinking the same thing! I talked with her on friday afternoon but did not see her again....

Stan


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Jamie showed up last night, walked out on the field and kicked some tail today! Truly incredible shooting giving the conditions.

I ate some gack soup and humble pie today. I can't think of a tougher day I've ever had shooting. Mostly me fighting myself rather than the actual conditions.

Individual eliminations tomorrow then the team round Thursday. Luckily for me, Guy and Brady kept us in for that one on Thursday. We're up against the Koreans in the first round, so hopefully we can make it interesting 

Logan and Reo in opposite brackets tomorrow morning. Hopefully they can find their way to the final four on Friday.

I hope to have some good pics to post later in the week.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Jim,
> 
> I was thinking the same thing! I talked with her on friday afternoon but did not see her again....
> 
> Stan


she must have shot the championship line-I remember a couple years ago when some of the FITA Haters on the main board were having kittens over the fact that Vic Wunderle won the recurve IFAA and NFAA titles shooting on the morning line (with kids who were spraying arrows all over the butt) so he could represent the USA at a world cup (that he won)


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Pete, 

Thanks for the update. We are proud of you... and please stop fighting with yourself! Good luck..

Stan


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

Jim C said:


> she must have shot the championship line-I remember a couple years ago when some of the FITA Haters on the main board were having kittens over the fact that Vic Wunderle won the recurve IFAA and NFAA titles shooting on the morning line (with kids who were spraying arrows all over the butt) so he could represent the USA at a world cup (that he won)


Jim,

Actually she shot 8 am line on Sat and 11:30 am line on Sat as well. I guess she had a flight booked for Sunday to get to Korea.

Also.........any word about results from Leipzig, Germany? I believe a friend of both of ours was shooting there this past week in IFAA.


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## lcv (Sep 7, 2004)

*Jamie*

Jim C

Jamie got into Louisville Friday and sometime between then and 6:00 am on Sunday squeezed in the 3-D and both rounds of the indoor on the early line and then her regularly scheduled time slot at 11:00. A good friend of hers drove down with four bows, two indoor and two outdoor. After her last round on Saturday she exchanged bows and clothes and jumped a plane headed ultimately to Ulsan, South Korea very early Sunday morning. She gambled on both she and her equipment arriving in Korea at the same time which was 8:30 pm the night before she had to shoot for score. They did and she took her bows and her jet lag to the field the next morning at 8:00 am and shot her full FITA, 144 arrows at 70-60-50-30 and under the circumstances acquitted herself pretty well. Now we will see if she can hold up during the eliminations today, tonight for us. I guess working out 2-4 hours a day is paying off in stamina. I am rooting for her as this was a wild plan in the first place but something she felt she had to do. April does not get much better for her either. She gets back from Korea this weekend, then next weekend Pittsburgh and following weekend the Texas shootout a USAT event she needs to attend. From Texas she will hop a plane to Italy for the second leg of the World Cup Series. I could go on but I think you get the gist of the idea. She feels she has an obligation to shoot in the big shoots that the associations she belongs to, put on during a year. She juggles schedules between the NAA, the NFAA, and FITA and in her own way, tries to promote archery in the US and other countries and she does it while holding a full time job at the University of Toledo. So that is Jamie Van Natta in a nutshell. If she ever retires from this sport she loves so much, somebody who needs a person that has time management skills could do no better than Jamie.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

scooby3xs said:


> Jim,
> 
> Actually she shot 8 am line on Sat and 11:30 am line on Sat as well. I guess she had a flight booked for Sunday to get to Korea.
> 
> Also.........any word about results from Leipzig, Germany? I believe a friend of both of ours was shooting there this past week in IFAA.


No word-what is amazing is how much crap Vic had heaped on him by some people on this board when he did the same thing in 05 and he wasn't shooting for any money. People who have no clue claimed he had an ADVANTAGE by being on a butt with kids who couldn't break 260 on their best day.

BTW I have nothing but respect for JVN-I have shot in tournaments several times and she is a class act and I THINK THAT TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS in the States have a DUTY TO ACCOMMODATE our world class archers who are REPRESENTING THE USA in world ranking events

I am just noting the DIFFERENT STANDARDS some of the compound crowd on the main board use when they attacked Vic Wunderle for doing the exact same thing


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

*Re: Jamie Van Natta*

An awesome shooter and total competitor. 

Will never forget that photo from years ago of Jamie napping in a compound bow case! Anyone else remember that photo? Classic!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

scooby3xs said:


> Jim,
> 
> Actually she shot 8 am line on Sat and 11:30 am line on Sat as well. I guess she had a flight booked for Sunday to get to Korea.
> 
> Also.........any word about results from Leipzig, Germany? I believe a friend of both of ours was shooting there this past week in IFAA.


Aya wins IFAA recurve indoor title

http://www.wiac2007.de/anmeldungen/ergebnisse_results.pdf


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## lcv (Sep 7, 2004)

*Jim C*

I hope you did not think I was directing my last post at you. I was just letting everyone know what her life is like duing the spring and summer months. She shot with excellent shooters on the 8:00 am line. Jamie was involved in the same situation Vic was and got the same attention he did back then. She got permission from the NFAA prior to this event and got permission from FITA also to do this and both organizations were very helpful and understanding. Basically I was explaining how she got to Korea on time, barely. Thank you NFAA and thank you FITA. Again, Jim my post was not directed at you at all.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

lcv said:


> ... She gets back from Korea this weekend, then next weekend Pittsburgh and following weekend the Texas shootout a USAT event she needs to attend. From Texas she will hop a plane to Italy for the second leg of the World Cup Series.


I think you might’ve missed the Arizona Cup - a USAT event in between Korea and Pittsburgh. I saw her name on the registration list.:wink:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

lcv said:


> I hope you did not think I was directing my last post at you. I was just letting everyone know what her life is like duing the spring and summer months. She shot with excellent shooters on the 8:00 am line. Jamie was involved in the same situation Vic was and got the same attention he did back then. She got permission from the NFAA prior to this event and got permission from FITA also to do this and both organizations were very helpful and understanding. Basically I was explaining how she got to Korea on time, barely. Thank you NFAA and thank you FITA. Again, Jim my post was not directed at you at all.



I know you weren't attacking me and as VP of the FITA Archers of Ohio I am proud that our organization and our state has a world champion level shooter like Jamie representing our state and our archers. I was just rather pssed a couple years ago when people who have no clue took cheap shots at Vic who did the exact same thing as Jamie and then we had to read how Vic was "advantaged" by shooting the earlier line with a bunch of kids. People like Vic and Jamie are where they are because they thrive on stiff competition and if anyone thinks Vic is helped by being on a target with 260 shooters rather than with Butch, Jason , John or Doug is clueless.


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## lcv (Sep 7, 2004)

*Mbu*

You are correct as she is going to the AZ Cup. I missed that. You will have to excuse an old man. I think we have hijacked this thread from Mr. Vargas and I apologize. WE should get back to his topic of the World Cup.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

thanks for the updates folks and I enjoy all of the side stories too! its all a good read, cheers


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

*It's cold in Korea*

I just got an email from my student Jorge Jimenez at the world cup. He said the wind has been very strong from left to right and that it snowed a bit during practice today. Being from El Salvador he had never seen snow or temps. this cold. He has made it thru to the semi finals, picking up where he left off last year. Way to go amigo!!!!:wink:


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## Ivorytooth (Jan 22, 2004)

lcv said:


> Jim C
> 
> Jamie got into Louisville Friday and sometime between then and 6:00 am on Sunday squeezed in the 3-D and both rounds of the indoor on the early line and then her regularly scheduled time slot at 11:00. A good friend of hers drove down with four bows, two indoor and two outdoor. After her last round on Saturday she exchanged bows and clothes and jumped a plane headed ultimately to Ulsan, South Korea very early Sunday morning. She gambled on both she and her equipment arriving in Korea at the same time which was 8:30 pm the night before she had to shoot for score. They did and she took her bows and her jet lag to the field the next morning at 8:00 am and shot her full FITA, 144 arrows at 70-60-50-30 and under the circumstances acquitted herself pretty well. Now we will see if she can hold up during the eliminations today, tonight for us. I guess working out 2-4 hours a day is paying off in stamina. I am rooting for her as this was a wild plan in the first place but something she felt she had to do. April does not get much better for her either. She gets back from Korea this weekend, then next weekend Pittsburgh and following weekend the Texas shootout a USAT event she needs to attend. From Texas she will hop a plane to Italy for the second leg of the World Cup Series. I could go on but I think you get the gist of the idea. She feels she has an obligation to shoot in the big shoots that the associations she belongs to, put on during a year. She juggles schedules between the NAA, the NFAA, and FITA and in her own way, tries to promote archery in the US and other countries and she does it while holding a full time job at the University of Toledo. So that is Jamie Van Natta in a nutshell. If she ever retires from this sport she loves so much, somebody who needs a person that has time management skills could do no better than Jamie.


This is why I am a Jamie Fan.  She is fun to shoot with. Gotta like her passion for the sport and how she does it.


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## geeme68 (Dec 2, 2005)

*Hi MARI!!!*

Just Want To Let You Know That Someone From The Philippines Is Being Kept Abreast With Your Posts... Thanks.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

The OR format is, once again, unkind to the top seeds in Men's Recurve. Five of the top six, along with eight of the top ten seeds have been eliminated. Of the top 10 qualifers, only 2nd-seeded Mr. Im of Korea and 10th seeded Xue Hai Fing of China advance to the semis. 

The most distant seeds to make the semis are 29th seeded Wang, Cheng Pang from Taipei, 25th seeded Tsyrempilov, Balzhinima from Russia, and 22nd seed Ilario Di Buo from Italy.

In sharp contrast to the Men's results, only 4th seeded Yun Mi Jin of Korea failed to make the semis in Women's Recurve. With the exception of Yun Mi Jin, the first seven seeds are in the semis, along with 36th seeded Banerjee, Dola from India and 24 Zhao Ling from China.

Gusty winds and cold temps may have contributed, but the elimination of so many of the top seeds in Men's Recurve versus all of the top seven seeds save one, in Women's Recurve is striking nonetheless.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

oldreliable67 said:


> The OR format is, once again, unkind to the top seeds in Men's Recurve. Five of the top six, along with eight of the top ten seeds have been eliminated. Of the top 10 qualifers, only 2nd-seeded Mr. Im of Korea and 10th seeded Xue Hai Fing of China advance to the semis.
> 
> The most distant seeds to make the semis are 29th seeded Wang, Cheng Pang from Taipei, 25th seeded Tsyrempilov, Balzhinima from Russia, and 22nd seed Ilario Di Buo from Italy.
> 
> ...


I saw that --I note Tsyrempilov IIRC is a former world #1 or #2 and Euro champion and Di Buo is the 05 Indoor world champion and holds many titles-guys who didn't shoot great in the qualis but are dangerous proven OR veterans


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Last year European Target championships in Greece under heavy wind have already proven that the 12 arrrows matches format for individuals and 24 arrows for teams have definitely pushed the OR beyond the limit of credibility as a sport event. Couild you imagine that the men recurve European team champion was going to be Estonia? Nobody, in the real world of archers and coaches, really believe that the OR is a fair competition, ond that winner have had something more than plenty of luck in comparison to his/her opponents.
Ulsan is prooving once more tha same, as of the results on the field. Is really Iran a new power in Compound ? Taipei is now ruling the world of men recurves? :zip: :zip: :zip: 
Even FITA comments on their website are showing plenty of difficulty in explaining waht has happened....and this is not definitely good for the image of our sport. You can ever explain everything an find analytical reasons why B has beaten A, but is not ever so simple to explain to media why Z has beaten A.
I have a great respect for Thomas Aubert, the young French archer that has defeated Park Kyung Mo in the wind 107/106, but does really exist in the world someone that thinks that Aubert's victory over Park has been something differetn than pure luck?

Jus to give a real new name to this kind of compettion, some people now in Korea are suggesting to call it "Casual Round" instead of "Olympic Round". 
So, getting to anoter open topic, why not to discuss about changing back the Casual Round format to a real credible Olympic Round matchpaly format more fair to the real levels in our sport?

P.S.
Korean ladies are unbeatable since 1995 (individual) and 1999 (teams) World championships and they have not been beaten since 1984 in Olympic Games. 
Their level comapared to the level of girls from other countries is so far ahed that any discussion is a waste of time and any change of formula is leaving things as they are, and even more, if you allow them to be 6 in the field...


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

I totally agree with Vittorio!

I don't think that Pace and MacKinney would have won so many world medals if the olympic round was there in that time!?!

We are facing crucial decisions to make our sport interesting to general public!

I think FITA made something very cool with the Grand Prix as long as we don't see Joe Nobody win too much!


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Logan is in the Final4
The women are out.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Pete731 said:


> I totally agree with Vittorio!
> 
> I don't think that Pace and MacKinney would have won so many world medals if the olympic round was there in that time!?!
> 
> ...


rumor (and I have heard conflicting stories) has it that Darrell's big wins are one of the reasons why "the powers that be" decided they had to have a change to make things more exciting. If you have a 20 point lead going into 30M in a FITA its pretty much over at that level


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Pete731 said:


> I totally agree with Vittorio!
> 
> I think FITA made something very cool with the Grand Prix as long as we don't see Joe Nobody win too much!


If Joe Nobody does win as you say too much, than he in all reality becomes Joe Somebody. Every champion starts someplace.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2007)

Let me say that when this first cme out I said that it was the most stupid thing to come out of Fita, they were on the right track with the Grand fita but it had to much movement of distances. I like the Fita field format it is easier to follow and explain to joe public. Having to explain haveing two Korean women shoot off with 170,s and one advances and one goes home when 7 other matches never made it to 160 is hard to explain with a straight face.Now with it being 12 arrows luck will play a larger role. I think that the qualifing round should count more that just seeding.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Having to explain haveing two Korean women shoot off with 170,s and one advances and one goes home when 7 other matches never made it to 160 is hard to explain with a straight face.


Exactly. It trivializes the sport.

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

back to the world cup guys!....iran wins mens team compound gold 224-223 vs great britain...france wins bronze 221-220 over australia...wow!! 2 close matches.....womens compound gold goes to russia 225-221 vs USA and france wins bronze 213-200 over korea.....Koreans awesome in recurve team...mens gold korea vs italy 220-212..france bronze 206-196 over mexico...korean mens smallest winning margin is 8pts..highest is 22pts!!.....korean women gold 203-194 over poland..great britain bronze 200-193 over france...korean womens winning margin is low of 9pts and high of 14pts.....can any country ever catch up with these people????.....individual medal matches tomorrow...only 1 korean out of 4 in mens recurve but 4 out of 4 in the womens side!!!!.....


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

just another thought on this OR situation....watching a fita or a grand fita to declare a winner is like watching grass grow...it only becomes exciting if the fight is close up to the finish....it will never sell in the broadcast media unless it is a pre-taped show and edited very well to provide excitement(example..the athens video).....the OR is exciting..no one is sure to win...it is quick and you know the winner right away....it DOES NOT prove that the winner is the best archer...it only proves he or she is the best for that match or that day or that week or during that competition!.....very few watch golf on tv unless it is the last day because they want to know who will win...the OR presents that opportunity in EVERY match....i agree that the fita or grand fita is a far better gauge of an archers skill....BUT its kinda boring to watch live on tv and sponsors do not like that....almost all sports have succumbed to the needs of television in order to gain popularity or exposure and hence more sponsorships funds....if our sport chooses to disregard this reality our future is not too bright......JMHO.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

A sport were the winner is just the luckier of that day soon or later will be eliminated from the Olympic Games. Tis is the real risk nobody in FITA semes to see. In no other olympic sport luck palys a role as heavy as now in archery.
As far as TV is concerned, we will never see a full elimination round broadcasted, independently from the formula. Just Gold finals or sometime bronze medals matches. Nothing more. 
So, you can even play a triple fita round in 3 days, and pick up the top 4 for the final TV matches and nobody in the world of medai will see any difference, but archers will!

Then, about the story that watching a double fita is like watching the grass to grow, I think this is not the opinion of ANY archer. Nor is the opinion of any golfer, if you refer the same comment to an 18 x2 holes comeptition!
I have enjoied a lot all the double Fita rounds have attended, were the top one was Punta Ala World Championship in 1981, decided between Laasonen, McKinney and Pace just at the last end at 30 mt. of the last day. 

Last, the most stupid thing is to imagine that the chanses to beat the Koreans are increasing because of the increased variability of the result. 
No, this solution has increased the chanses of the Koreans to win everything, while have decreased the probabilities of all other top nations to beat them. Just have a look to the number of medals they are winning average in a comeptiton. Is constant or increasing. In Ulsan, for instance, they will get 6 out of 8. The reason is simple: they can push their level even highter, as of the wide choice of archers they have, while other countries simply can't. 
I mean, I can train (again) an archer to reach the 1350 needed to be at competitive level, if I have a good one to work with, but he will remain... one only...This archer may beat the Koreans during a FITA round, but the probability he can reach a final against them is decreased, as of the increased possibility that other low level archers can eliminate him before the finals. It means that the one or two koreans men (women, as said, will tend to be 4 in any case) that will EVER reach the finals will have to face an average lower level of archers than before. (yes, Murphi's low dominates, in our Casual Round!). IM tomorrow will win in ULSAN, as of the level of the opponents he will have to face!

Friends, it's time to to change the CR if we want our sport to attract more new archers and local sponsors! As it is, the CR is discouraging both potential sponsors and potential archers!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

jmvargas said:


> just another thought on this OR situation....watching a fita or a grand fita to declare a winner is like watching grass grow...it only becomes exciting if the fight is close up to the finish....it will never sell in the broadcast media unless it is a pre-taped show and edited very well to provide excitement(example..the athens video).....the OR is exciting..no one is sure to win...it is quick and you know the winner right away....it DOES NOT prove that the winner is the best archer...it only proves he or she is the best for that match or that day or that week or during that competition!.....very few watch golf on tv unless it is the last day because they want to know who will win...the OR presents that opportunity in EVERY match....i agree that the fita or grand fita is a far better gauge of an archers skill....BUT its kinda boring to watch live on tv and sponsors do not like that....almost all sports have succumbed to the needs of television in order to gain popularity or exposure and hence more sponsorships funds....if our sport chooses to disregard this reality our future is not too bright......JMHO.



bstdizing the integrity of the sport to make archery into something it will never be-a spectator sport-is not worth it IMHO. if the OR round could make archery as popular a TV sport as golf or tennis or even beach volleyball there would be merit but we are trading integrity for almost nothing in return. I have attended a bunch of "US OPENS" and even in a place like Michigan-a huge archery state-very few people other than the archers' family members bothered to show up to watch. Even when the worlds was in Central Park in NYC people watched because they were already there


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## WormBurner (Oct 19, 2006)

(in response to J.Vargas') 


Well, perhaps that's so...but I'm not so sure that a bright future is being guaranteed _with_ the current arrangement, either. During the last Olympics, I was basically a non-archer at the time (some might say I still am, but I digress)...I watched the events pretty faithfully, and can only recall seeing one blip of archery - and that was so short, I recall asking myself - why bother? 

"And now we take you to the Men's Archery medal final...(whisk)...2 arrows hit the target, the announcer narrates who the winner is..."Back to you, Bob"...(whisk)...OK, now we take you back to (Shot Put/swimming/fill in the blank).

No, I agree with Vittorio on this one...I lament our sport is not more popular...but I'm not sure I see the value of twisting the comp-format into a pretzel in an attempt to chase 20 seconds of air time and divert 5 seconds of attention away from some couch-potato who just tuned in to see if "That Swimmer Guy" is going to win another medal or not (so he can be prepared for water-cooler talk the next day).

A better way to solve this dilemma is to do what the firearm sports have done: shoot the normal qualifying course of fire, and at the end, the top 10 shooters go into a 10-shot "final" round with scoring rings subdivided into tenths and scores displayed digitally after every shot...the ranking changes after every shot...the pressure mounts after each shot - and a winner is determined pretty quickly. It all comes down to the shooters' ability to fire 10 shots under pressure as perfectly as possible (_not_ just better than the guy next to them). Sometimes, the top 2 guys totally "cave" on a shot and somebody from 4th place rises up and passes them both completely, adding an element of unpredictability. I've seen shooters move from 5th place to a Gold Medal in 3 shots with this arrangement...and it had nothing to do with luck of the draw. It's all about perfect shot-making...not "getting by" with a crummy score that happens to be one point higher than the guy next to you. 

Has this format turned shooting into a household sport? No...but has the OR done that for Archery? Of course not.

Unfortunately, the best image-remedy for our sport, I think, is success, and more accurately - the chances for success being recognized in a number of countries, so their TV stations will all be interested...(speaking from an American-centric viewpoint just for a moment here) if the Americans are expected to win a ton of medals, our TV coverage will flock towards that success, regardless of format... but if we're also-rans, then the format probably doesn't matter for us. Regardless of format, no American TV audience wants to see us if we're not going to win medals.

My greatest fear is that the Koreans become so dominant, that the IOC decides it's not worth even having Archery in the Olympics anymore...they won't see fit to expend the effort putting on the competition, just for the medals to go to the same country every time. That's the biggest threat we face right now, IMO.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

there are several sports that are dominated by one country yet they remain. HOwever, as Vittorio correctly noted-if the integrity of the competition is suspect while the MONEY it brings in doesn't really increase then the sport might be eliminated. Why do we have sports like Beach Volleyball which is essentially a duplication of skills and a refuge for has been real volleyball players? cute chicks in bikinis and buff dudes in swim trunks gets lots of people who never played the sport to watch.


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

I guess I'm in the minority here but the OR to me doesn't seem like it's a lucky round. I mean you could argue that someone could be on fire and beat the No 1 seed in any sport (the NCAA basketball tournament, grand slam tennis event, etc. etc. etc.), that's not luck, that's just one archer being better than another at that very single moment. Maybe 12 arrows is too short and allows too much of a "hot streak" an archer can go on, but the OR single elimination format is simple for many people to grasp and understand, upsets get fans hyped up (even if their favorites are being upset), it creates a buzz.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

hkim823 said:


> I guess I'm in the minority here but the OR to me doesn't seem like it's a lucky round. I mean you could argue that someone could be on fire and beat the No 1 seed in any sport (the NCAA basketball tournament, grand slam tennis event, etc. etc. etc.), that's not luck, that's just one archer being better than another at that very single moment. Maybe 12 arrows is too short and allows too much of a "hot streak" an archer can go on, but the OR single elimination format is simple for many people to grasp and understand, upsets get fans hyped up (even if their favorites are being upset), it creates a buzz.


However the games in the NCAA basketball tournament are not 4 minutes long (10% of the normal 40 minutes. 12 arrows is less than 10% of the 144 arrows shot in the FITA round.)


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

TomB said:


> However the games in the NCAA basketball tournament are not 4 minutes long (10% of the normal 40 minutes. 12 arrows is less than 10% of the 144 arrows shot in the FITA round.)


No I agree Tom. 12 arrows is too short. 36 arrows would be ideal IMO but then you could really only expect 4 rounds in one day, so I guess you can do 1/4, 1/2 and finals on day 2.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

hkim823 said:


> No I agree Tom. 12 arrows is too short. 36 arrows would be ideal IMO but then you could really only expect 4 rounds in one day, so I guess you can do 1/4, 1/2 and finals on day 2.


do what we did when I was an international skeet shooter

everyone shot 200 targets
cut to the top 6

they shoot another 25 targets all together on the same field
whoever had the top score still won (225 possible) BUT if I shot a 198 with a 25 final round and you shot a 200 with a 23 final round my 25 was the winning tie breaker

it made the final 25 targets slightly more important than the other 8 rounds

sort of like one Vegas scenario where everyone with a 900 got to play in the shootoff but then X's counted

I have yet to see anyone claim that the OR round has really increased spectator (or more importantly TELEVISION) interest


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i agree with jim c and vittorio on the integrity angle...my point is that to INCREASE POPULARITY AND EXPOSURE television is essential...this would apply not only to archery but to most other sports...WITHOUT TELEVSION many sports would not be where they are now...golf..billiards..motor racing...soccer..cricket!!??....etc..etc...unfortunately jim c is correct in stating that archery is not a spectator sport...but so was billiards until ESPN found ways and means to make it so...they have so many differnt new formats to provide excitement that our 2 best players ( and also rated among the best in the world!) django bustamante and efren reyes have commented to me that they sometimes do not know what the rules are going to be until the last minute when ESPN just explains it to all the players!....there is now indoor soccer!...i do not think archery will be eliminated from the olympics because a country will be dominating it...if that were the case basketball would have been gone a long time ago when nobody could even come close to the USA( of course that isn't the case anymore)....the powers that be will try their best to find a way to make our sport more popular....if television is the answer we can expect more changes...i do not think it will ever go back to the long and drawn out fita or grand fita ONLY to decide the winner...in any sport the cream will always rise to the top IN THE LONG RUN but the current reality in sports is that they want to see winners NOW.....JMHO.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

just wanted to add that my grass growing analogy was only to stress the point that it takes soooooo long to decide the winner in a fita or grand fita.....i am as much an archery fanatic as anyone here but doubt i will have the patience to watch it continously from beginning to end!!!...again this is with tv in mind....i have been a golfer for almost 50 years and used to devour all golf tv programs but now find also that i only want to watch the last day coverage or if tiger woods is playing....BTW having a 'tiger' or 'tigers' in our sport won't hurt us either.....also the athens archery video is an example of what a good producer can come up with to make archery exciting....but these things cost an arm and a leg to make.....


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

oh and back to the world cup final individual results...Im of korea did not medal and finished 4th in men's recurve...wang and kuo of chinese taipei won gold and silver...the russian tsyrempilov got the bronze..and of course korea was 1-4 in women's recurve with world record holder park again winning gold.....men's compound saw jorge jimenez of el salvador beat reza of iran for gold while van zutphen of the netherlands beat logan wilde of the US for bronze.....two russians got 1st and 2nd with kazantseva beating many time winner goncharova for the gold in women's compound...kusanarah of indonesia was 3rd and shabani of iran 3rd.......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wang is the one that took me out in the 1st round in Athens. I can attest to his ability to shoot well in the wind!  

Chinese Taipai is looking very strong these days. Maybe the next Korea?

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i agree john...ditto for their women!!


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Wang is the one that took me out in the 1st round in Athens. I can attest to his ability to shoot well in the wind!
> 
> Chinese Taipai is looking very strong these days. Maybe the next Korea?


Our mission, if we wish to accept it, is to rule the world. Anyone up to it?

It's all in the attitude...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It's all in the attitude...


Yea. That's what most Americans think...

It's all in the results. Attitude only gets you so far. Hard work and technique are what produces. 

Anyone up to that? 

The day when we can honestly say our USAT recurvers are out-working any other country in the world is the day we can start thinking about "ruling" it again.

John.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Yea. That's what most Americans think...
> 
> It's all in the results. Attitude only gets you so far. Hard work and technique are what produces.
> 
> ...


While I agree in principle, I will disagree with your perception. First, the compounders in AT have stated many times that the recurvers have all but given up and possess a defeatest atittude. They've lost before one arrow flys. I DO NOT agree with that point, but it is a legitimate concern. We should out train everyone, we should work harder than any other country.

But at the end of the day...IT IS the attitude that makes a winner. Walking out expecting to win, not just to be competitive. Planning to kick some tail, as it were.

We have become a culture of narcisissitic, passive, has-been wannabees.
Now is the time to stand up and be counted. Become the Rocky Balboas of archery...and get that eye of the tiger.

Now I am decending of my soapbox...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> First, the compounders in AT have stated many times that the recurvers have all but given up and possess a defeatest atittude.


 Yes, I've heard that too many times. Give it 10 years and check back with the compounders... 



> But at the end of the day...IT IS the attitude that makes a winner.


Sounds good. And easy to say. In fact, Hollywood (the culture, not the AT member) couldn't have said it any better 

Here's a little saying I pass along every chance I get...

_Success is not the result of confidence. Confidence is the result of success. And success is the result of preparation._

So, prepare, then allow your confidence to grow accordingly. Confidence without success is false confidence.

You can have all the attitude in the world, but in the end, you cannot fool yourself. Believing in yourself is much more convincing when you have something to believe in. 

If you will remember, the original Rocky Balboa did not have an attitude either. He just trained harder than the other guy...

John.


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