# Long String Stability Process



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I think everyone would agree that it is much more difficult to get long, one-cam strings stable then it is to get short strings stable. I believe this is caused by uneven twists produced on each side of the idler wheel when serving. With short strings, servings are pretty much equal lengths on either side of string center. One cams are not equally served on each side of center, making it much more difficult to get even tension of the twists on both sides of the idler. I've been working on a process to address this on longer strings. So far the process is showing promise.

To put it as simple as possible; I'm using serving direction (always clockwise) to even out tension on longer strings. End servings are served as usual but center and idler servings are served from the center out with a two-step process. I serve under 300#+ tension.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

I won't turn this into another astro versus 452x thread but have you noticed the same problems with the D10 you've been playing with? I used to do my idler servings at 450lbs and the rest at 300lbs and it solved alot of problems. Now I do everything at 450lbs. I'm amazed at how many show some rotation after the 300lb prestretch but show no rotation after 450lbs and being served.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

60X said:


> I won't turn this into another astro versus 452x thread but have you noticed the same problems with the D10 you've been playing with? I used to do my idler servings at 450lbs and the rest at 300lbs and it solved alot of problems. Now I do everything at 450lbs. I'm amazed at how many show some rotation after the 300lb prestretch but show no rotation after 450lbs and being served.


I find the long string stability issue is universal, regardless of material. The only D10 string I have made so far is holding up well though. I did not use the above process with that string but did serve under a lot of tension (400-500?). That having been said, even with a lot of tension, long strings are more difficult to get zero peep movement. I'm hoping this process will help, so far it's looking good.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

You might find this odd , but my long strings come out as good as my short ones...Just dont have an issue, wierd


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## 164343 (Dec 24, 2009)

ex-wolverine said:


> You might find this odd , but my long strings come out as good as my short ones...Just dont have an issue, wierd


Also no issue's..we build many one cam strings and not one problem with rotation.


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## jaredc (Mar 23, 2008)

I am with 60x on this one and I don't want to turn this thread into a material debate but I will say that I have had problems with blended materials that used to give me fits. With a non blended material my long strings are solid as a rock. I will say that your serving direction pics that you have been posting are some the best pics I have seen on this forum and should be made a sticky to save any more confusion on this topic.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

jaredc said:


> I am with 60x on this one and I don't want to turn this thread into a material debate but I will say that I have had problems with blended materials that used to give me fits. With a non blended material my long strings are solid as a rock. I will say that your serving direction pics that you have been posting are some the best pics I have seen on this forum and should be made a sticky to save any more confusion on this topic.


First this has nothing to do with material but since you mentioned the blended materials as giving you trouble, my example is based on a 452X/Trophy material string. So far so good. And for those of you that never have any long string stability issues, God bless... and disregard this thread. I personally find that one cam strings require more effort to get little or no rotation. I'm hoping this process may be helpful to some that may be having difficulty with their long string results.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

I will say that when I dont serve the Idler (PSE) on Single cam strings I have issues..And I do agree with Jaredc your illustrations are the best and shoud be a stickey, so that question dont get beaten to a pulp agian...

Like I said its wierd, dont know why I dont have issues, but Im not going to change what do...I have had more issues with shorter strings than with the longer



EPLC said:


> First this has nothing to do with material but since you mentioned the blended materials as giving you trouble, my example is based on a 452X/Trophy material string. So far so good. And for those of you that never have any long string stability issues, God bless... and disregard this thread. I personally find that one cam strings require more effort to get little or no rotation. I'm hoping this process may be helpful to some that may be having difficulty with their long string results.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ex-wolverine said:


> I will say that when I dont serve the Idler (PSE) on Single cam strings I have issues..And I do agree with Jaredc your illustrations are the best and shoud be a stickey, so that question dont get beaten to a pulp agian...
> 
> Like I said its wierd, dont know why I dont have issues, but Im not going to change what do...I have had more issues with shorter strings than with the longer


I'm guessing that your idler serving method/direction results in even distribution of tension along a one-cam string. When you don't serve the idler the string must not get evened out. You may be having some issues with shorter strings because your processes are actually the same... While my issues where mainly with longer strings, shorter ones give me no heartburn at all. The long string process here is all about trying to get the tension as even as possible. The solution may be to have a slight process revision for each in order to insure even tension. While there can be many other factors, the serving process is definately the root cause of most stability issues. At least that's my belief.

BTW, check your PM's...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*The Bad Example*

I'll bet that the example below would produce a very unstable string as tension would build up on the left side of the string as it was served. Serving #4 would relieve some of that tension, but not enough. That built up tension, trying to normalize is what causes peep problems. Just changing the order and direction of the various servings would have either a positive or negative impact on stability. The key is to find that happy medium. Opinions?


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## PDB Strings (May 13, 2010)

If you would do a little experiment for us. Take that material that Tom sent you and build a single cam string and let us know the results. Serve it the 'old' way that was giving you problems and let us know the outcome. As for the original topic I've found that two things will cause my long strings to have rotation.....either too much serving tension or not enough string tension. The two go hand in hand.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

FWIW I've served strings a few different ways and they've all worked in the end. 
1. Started at the right and did every serving right to left
2. Same as #1 but did the left loop from loop out.
3. Serve toward each loop, do idler and center from right to left. This is my current serving method as well. 

I'm a firm believer that rotation is caused by too much serving tension. Every now and then I'll still get a string that goes to the trash because it wants to twist.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

PDB Strings said:


> If you would do a little experiment for us. Take that material that Tom sent you and build a single cam string and let us know the results. Serve it the 'old' way that was giving you problems and let us know the outcome. As for the original topic I've found that two things will cause my long strings to have rotation.....either too much serving tension or not enough string tension. The two go hand in hand.


I have not recieved anything as yet from Tom... I have been putting together a test case but am missing one material. While I agree that tension certainly helps, the bad example above would not produce a stable string even under a lot of tension. So why don't you try it yourself.

60X... I don't think your #1 would work for me as it is very close to my bad example. Haven't tried your #3... Are we talking long one-cam strings?


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

I do all of my strings and cables that way. As long as you serve the correct way with the proper tension I don't think it really makes a difference. Something I used to do as well was use a little jon string holding bar when doing my idler servings. This allowed me to use more serving tension and keep the string from rotating. If uneven twists are building up while serving I feel the string is either being served the wrong direction or with too much tension.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

My PMS have been jacked up..Can you send your address again? I had to contact the MODS last night to fix it



EPLC said:


> I have not recieved anything as yet from Tom... I have been putting together a test case but am missing one material. While I agree that tension certainly helps, the bad example above would not produce a stable string even under a lot of tension. So why don't you try it yourself.
> 
> 60X... I don't think your #1 would work for me as it is very close to my bad example. Haven't tried your #3... Are we talking long one-cam strings?


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

Perhaps spliting the idler wheel serving in two halfs is a solution so that all serving on each side of the string can be served clockwise from the appropriate ends towards the centre.

Just thinking out loud!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Limey said:


> Perhaps spliting the idler wheel serving in two halfs is a solution so that all serving on each side of the string can be served clockwise from the appropriate ends towards the centre.
> 
> Just thinking out loud!


Actually, I'm serving the idler serving from the center out using clockwise rotation in both directions, but you have the basic concept...


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

For my Apex 7 which has sting suppresors that wear the top serving I made a deliberate break in the serving to make repairs easier and quicker, the side effect was minimal peep rotatation compared to the 20 degrees on my Conquest string. Now even 20 degrees is easy to work with as the peep is angled slightly right of square at rest and then moves to square at full draw. Just a fraction more work to get set correctly after installation. The problem could also be fixed by strand flipping but I don't like this on 2 colour strings.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

longer strings like more tension..all my solo strings I serve at 400-450pds and cant believe how much difference it makes..especially on pse strings with no idler serving..


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

So, having made one string using this process was promising but it doesn't actually prove a lot. The first string was a 452X/Trophy combo so I thought I'd do another using Dynaflight 10. I put one together this evening. After installation I shot the bow about 10-15 shots before installing the peep. I've been shooting it since the peep installation (about an hour) without any rotation issues. Peep was right on first shot and nothing has moved since... I'm going to leave this string on the bow because I want to see how the Dynaflight 10 performs.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

EPLC, how much difference do you allow for your initial setup for length on the D10 compared to 452X or Trophy. What I mean is for me when I set up a string with 452X or Trophy I add 1% to the starting length so that when I am done and twisted up it will be to factory specs. Just wondering if you have noticed a little more stretch with D10 compared to Trophy and how much less , if any , you add to your starting setup length.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Spotshooter2 said:


> EPLC, how much difference do you allow for your initial setup for length on the D10 compared to 452X or Trophy. What I mean is for me when I set up a string with 452X or Trophy I add 1% to the starting length so that when I am done and twisted up it will be to factory specs. Just wondering if you have noticed a little more stretch with D10 compared to Trophy and how much less , if any , you add to your starting setup length.


I'm working on that but this string was set 1% over for the initial jig setting. My usual setting for 452X is 1.25% but I have been reducing that recently. I believe the other string (452x/Trophy) was also set at 1% but I did not record the number of twists. I think it was around 80 though, but could be wrong? The D10 string resulted in about 105 twists to get my 104 3/4" finished measurement. 

The process went this way:
1. Set jig to 105.800 (aproximately)
2. Lay on 8 strands of red D10 (4 turns clockwise from left end of jig)
3. Lay on 8 strands of black D10 ( 4 turns counter-clockwise from right end of jig)
4. Tag end process (left side then right)
5. Switch to string stretcher attachment (BCY tool)
6. Insert spacers and bring to 100#
7. Twist string 80 twists 
8. Add 25 more turns with stretcher (not string, just stretcher) 
9. Bring back to 100# and measure. 
10. Add/Subtract twists as needed. (In this case I had to add an additional 20 twists to get back to 104 3/4)
11. Add 5 more twists (just a gut feeling)
12. Relax all tension and install Moto Tool (great tool BTW)
13. Return tension to 100# and then add 25 more turns with stretcher (not string, just stretcher) I have no way to measure the poundage after 100# but I assume this is over 400#
14. Serve 20" right end serving from right to left (all serving is done clockwise regardless of serving direction)
15. Serve 2" Dead-Stop serving from left to right.
16. Serve 9" left end serving from left to right. 
17. Serve left side of idler serving from right to left. (Start at center and serve out to left end)
18. Serve right side of idler serving from left to right. (Start at center, butted up against #17 serving and serve out to right end)
19. Serve left side of center serving from right to left. (Same process as #17)
20. Serve right side of xcenter serving from left to right (Same process as #18)
21. Relax tension to 100# and measure. Adjust as needed. In this case the 104 3/4" was right on the money but I added a couple of twists anyway. The string is still showing those 2 twists so they were not needed. I do like the feel of the bow where it is so I'm going to leave it for now. 

Now, after sitting over night, the string is still where it was last night. I'm going out to shoot it now. Be back later...


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

The tracking number is in your PMs



EPLC said:


> I have not recieved anything as yet from Tom... ?


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Thanks EPLC, for me the 1% for trophy and 452X has worked out really well. For my twist ratio I use 2/3 of string length for my twist so a 60 inch string will have 40 twists in it. I use the Little Jon jig and I really like the strings I can make with it.:teeth:


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Been shooting the new string all day w/o any issues. Shot a 14 target field round and then shot indoors for about 1 1/2 hours. Peep is still dead center and comes straight back. I believe this is a sound process and will continue using it from here on.

BTW, thanks Tom, I see the material will be here tomorrow.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

I would love to see you built one with d10 using your old process. I don't think it's your process but the change in material that is making the difference in stability.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

60X said:


> I would love to see you built one with d10 using your old process. I don't think it's your process but the change in material that is making the difference in stability.


Actually the first string I made with D10 was with my old process. After the initial break in I ended up with some very slight peep rotation. This was the reason I decided to modify my process as my long strings were hit or miss, not really bad, but not 100% either. Since changing to this process I have had zero peep issues with both Dynaflight 10 and 452X/Trophy on long strings. My old process never had any issues with shorter strings. BTW, my serving jig was set at about 5# on all strings. What do you set yours at?

I do like the D10 though, I hope it holds up in the summer months.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

We serve at about 3.5lbs but that's on apple servers. 5-6 is what we used when we were building on little jons at 300lbs.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

60X said:


> I would love to see you built one with d10 using your old process. I don't think it's your process but the change in material that is making the difference in stability.


Actually, I'd like to see you use this process with the materials that have been giving you problems. I'd be interested in seeing the result. 

I know you truly believe that the blended materials are harder to get stable (peep wise) but I haven't found that to be the case. In the case of the two strings made with this process, the first was a mix of 452X and Trophy. The 452X was white with no wax/coating and the Trophy was coated/waxed. The wax content on the Trophy was somewhat lighter than what I normally see. The Dynaflight 10 was heavier with wax on both spools. In spite of these variances both strings came out perfect. 

I also find some of the things you have said a little confusing. On one hand you claim that it doesn't matter which way you serve as all come out well, but on the other hand you claim some materials give you problems? Can't be both. That having been said, I found that the minor issue I was having was resolved with a slight process modification. Perhaps the same may be true with your process? It may work quite well with the non-blended materials and may need a slight tweek for the blended?


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

What I've found are certain materials can be tougher to get zero rotation on the jig. I have 3 particular colors of one material that I have to stretch longer and at a higher tension to get no rotation. I'll see if this makes sense....

Material A. I can serve tighter and get no rotation. We have never scraped a string or had a customer complaint of rotation. I have noticed if you have to add many twists after the string is complete it can sometimes take a long time to settle back in. 

Material B/C I have to back the serving tension off a bit(especially with halo). During my prestretch I sometimes will see rotation. I've learned if there is rotation there I need to stretch it longer and at a higher tension. This usually cures the problem. We have scraped two strings in the past month or so and had 2 other customer complaints this year. Both complaints had 2 of the 3 problem colors and that's when I realized what was going on. 2 of these colors are low wax while another is super heavy wax so that part still have me baffled. 

I do between 10-25 sets a day using 452x, trophy and astro flight. I've learned little tricks over time on what works with each material. It's neat talking to other string builders and seeing how our processes are different but we all end up with great strings in the end.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

60X said:


> What I've found are certain materials can be tougher to get zero rotation on the jig. I have 3 particular colors of one material that I have to stretch longer and at a higher tension to get no rotation. I'll see if this makes sense....
> 
> Material A. I can serve tighter and get no rotation. We have never scraped a string or had a customer complaint of rotation. I have noticed if you have to add many twists after the string is complete it can sometimes take a long time to settle back in.
> 
> ...


So, it looks like you have nothing to loose and everything to gain by trying this process on your problem children? Try making one long string using the "bad boys" using this process to the letter. Also, I did burnish between steps 10-11.

1. Set jig to 105.800 (aproximately)
2. Lay on 8 strands of red D10 (4 turns clockwise from left end of jig)
3. Lay on 8 strands of black D10 ( 4 turns counter-clockwise from right end of jig)
4. Tag end process (left side then right)
5. Switch to string stretcher attachment (BCY tool)
6. Insert spacers and bring to 100#
7. Twist string 80 twists 
8. Add 25 more turns with stretcher (not string, just stretcher) 
9. Bring back to 100# and measure. 
10. Add/Subtract twists as needed. (In this case I had to add an additional 20 twists to get back to 104 3/4)
10a. Burnish twisted string with piece of handbag leather.
11. Add 5 more twists (just a gut feeling)
12. Relax all tension and install Moto Tool (great tool BTW)
13. Return tension to 100# and then add 25 more turns with stretcher (not string, just stretcher) I have no way to measure the poundage after 100# but I assume this is over 400#
14. Serve 20" right end serving from right to left (all serving is done clockwise regardless of serving direction)
15. Serve 2" Dead-Stop serving from left to right.
16. Serve 9" left end serving from left to right. 
17. Serve left side of idler serving from right to left. (Start at center and serve out to left end)
18. Serve right side of idler serving from left to right. (Start at center, butted up against #17 serving and serve out to right end)
19. Serve left side of center serving from right to left. (Same process as #17)
20. Serve right side of xcenter serving from left to right (Same process as #18)
21. Relax tension to 100# and measure. Adjust as needed. In this case the 104 3/4" was right on the money but I added a couple of twists anyway. The string is still showing those 2 twists so they were not needed. I do like the feel of the bow where it is so I'm going to leave it for now.


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## Schpankme (Dec 6, 2010)

EPLC said:


> So, it looks like you have nothing to loose and everything to gain by trying this process on your problem children? Try making one long string using the "bad boys" using this process to the letter. Also, I did burnish between steps 10-11.
> 
> 1. Set jig to 105.800 (aproximately)
> 2. Lay on 8 strands of red D10 (4 turns clockwise from left end of jig)
> ...



EPLC,

I've been using a variation of your build, using BCY 8125G & D10, with excellent results. 

Thx for sharing.


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