# "Fair Chase" and Crossbow Hunting



## twogun

The claim has been made that hunting with a crossbow during bowseason violates "Fair Chase". This notion is seemingly supported by P&Y as they include a link to the deffinition of a "bow" under their statement of "Fair Chase".

"Fair Chase" defined:



> FAIR CHASE STATEMENT
> FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.
> HUNTER ETHICS
> Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of conservation of natural resources. Hunting in today's world involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting, which includes the following tenets:
> 1. Obey all applicable laws and regulations.
> 2. Respect the customs of the locale where the hunting occurs.
> 3. Exercise a personal code of behavior that reflects favorably on your abilities and sensibilities as a hunter.
> 4. Attain and maintain the skills necessary to make the kill as certain and quick as possible.
> 5. Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter, the hunted, or the environment.
> 6. Recognize that these tenets are intended to enhance the hunter's experience of the relationship between predator and prey, which is one of the most fundamental relationships of humans and their environment.


http://www.boone-crockett.org/huntingEthics/ethics_fairchase.asp?area=huntingEthics

The B&C definition is a standard for all of hunting not just gun or bow. It is the foundation for all of today's sport hunting. Using a crossbow obviously violates none of the above definition. Using a crossbow also follows all the standards P&Y present:



> Fair Chase
> From its beginnings, the Club has grown to epitomize fair chase and sportsmanship in hunting. *This fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit*; it remains a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting's future with deep roots in America's hunting heritage. Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural resources.
> 
> The term "Fair Chase" shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
> 1. Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
> 2. From any power vehicle or power boat.
> 3. By "jacklighting" or shining at night.
> 4. By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
> 5. While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
> 6. By the use of any power vehicles or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
> 7. By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating, or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
> 8. Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.


Crossbow use is in total compliance with all of this. But, P&Y adds this:



> SPECIAL NOTE: *For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club's Records Program,* a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A let-off exceeding sixty-five (65) percent, using the A.M.O. standard method of measurement, will be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. For further information, please click here for the


http://www.pope-young.org/fairchase.asp

Since this is added as a "note" at the end of the "Fair Chase" definition, does that mean that it is part of it? That's the way it's being interpreted, and I believe it is exactly what they want. The introductory bolded phrase is significant. If P&Y wants to define what equipment can be used for inclusion in their books, that's fine. They're a private organization that can set whatever standards they want, but their specific record book standards should not be used to define "Fair Chase."

Those who perpetuate the idea that using a crossbow is "cheating" and a violation of "Fair Chase" are irresponsibly manipulating the definition to further a political agenda.

If a crossbow is not fair, how can a rifle be? If a crossbow is not fair, how can a compound be? How can it be fair to use blinds? Treestands? Etc.? What does the timing of the season have to do with it? How can it be "fair" at one time and not another? 

Is it all about the rut? If so, is it not "fair" to shoot a buck during gun season when he's trailing a hot doe? Is it not "fair" to hunt an early ML season if it falls during the rut?



Consider this information that I found at HSUS in a piece against canned hunts:



> Jim Posewitz spent 32 years as a biologist with the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks. As founder and president of Orion: The Hunter's Institute, he is one of sport hunting's most passionate defenders, much in demand as a speaker by hunting organizations and wildlife agencies across the country. In his book, Beyond Fair Chase, which is widely viewed within the hunting community as the "bible" of hunting, Posewitz discusses fair chase in these terms:
> *Fundamental to ethical hunting is the idea of fair chase. This concept addresses the balance between the hunter and the hunted. It is a balance that allows hunters to occasionally succeed while animals generally avoid being taken.*
> Posewitz's organization, Orion, defines hunting as "the fair chase pursuit of free-roaming wildlife in a noncompetitive situation in which the animal is used for food."
> Orion's definition of ethical hunting includes four elements: 1) fair chase; 2) free-roaming wildlife; 3) noncompetitive; and 4) used for food. The first two elements are shared with the definition used by B&C. But because B&C exists to promote trophy hunting, their definition of fair chase does not include "a noncompetitive situation" or consuming the animal.


This is a far more restrictive perspective on "FC" than is presented by B&C or P&Y and still does not define anything that could possibly be used to fight crossbows.


----------



## aceoky

I would agree MUCH more with B&C than any of the rest!

"FC", has and can't have anything to do with the weapon(s) used! What does any weapon have to do with "pursuit"? Some may contend that is not true with "fair kill", but I can't see THAT "logic" either.....maybe that's "just me"......

When we are talking about hunting, to MOST people it's about being out there, hoping to at least "see" the game they pursue, getting a shot with gun,bow, crossbow, rocket preopelled greande, or whatever is NOT the primary purpose to most hunters......thus weapon choice is also NOT a "big deal", and again I believe MOST hunters care not what another archer goes afield with, longbow, recurve, compound OR crossbow.....some do, though they are a very vocal "few", who never give ONE substantial reason for them being "correct" even in their own minds.....


----------



## Marvin

Shouldn;t this be in teh crossbow forum since it is nto about anything but the supposive validity of the crossbow as an archery weapon.


----------



## aceoky

I "thought" it was mainly about what IS fari chase, AND does the crossbow fit that, but that is ONLY how I read it....I guess


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> I "thought" it was mainly about what IS fari chase, AND does the crossbow fit that, but that is ONLY how I read it....I guess


This is for legislation Ace.. the crossbow forum is for bickering about its use...but not to worry, in there you can win your argument.


----------



## PMantle

This doesn't belong here. Bring it to the crossbow forum where I can't go for reasons never explained to me, or at least tie it to leglislation, somehow.


----------



## Free Range

Is there some legislation being adopted, about fair chase, I have missed? And in case there is I want to reply to this.



> They're a private organization that can set whatever standards they want, but their specific record book standards should not be used to define "Fair Chase."


So just who’s definition of fair chase in bow hunting season, should we use, your’s, SCI, (mostly gun hunters) B&C (mostly gun hunters). No thank you I will stick with the oldest and most respected “BOW hunting” organization around.


----------



## Marvin

Free Range said:


> Is there some legislation being adopted, about fair chase, I have missed? And in case there is I want to reply to this.
> 
> 
> 
> So just who’s definition of fair chase in bow hunting season, should we use, your’s, SCI, (mostly gun hunters) B&C (mostly gun hunters). No thank you I will stick with the oldest and most respected “BOW hunting” organization around.


 B&C...yeah their public.....typical crossbow response...use the best one that fits.


----------



## twogun

This is beautiful, not one countering argument, just a bunch of whining about the proper plaement of the thread. This is a forum to discuss "Legislation" and "Hunting Rights". My "rights" as a hunter are under attack. The fact that this ttack is oming from other hunters doesn't change that fact. 

The justification that some are providing for coming after my hunting is that it violates "Fair Chase". I didn't bring it up. The anti-crossbow side did. Where was all this indignation for the proper place for this content when it was first mentioned?

Quit trying to dodge the issue. Those of you who want this moved want it moved because you can't support the absurdity of claiming crossbows violate "FC". You would much rather see it in a forum where you have an excuse not to address it.


----------



## twogun

Free Range said:


> Is there some legislation being adopted, about fair chase, I have missed? And in case there is I want to reply to this.
> 
> 
> 
> So just who’s definition of fair chase in bow hunting season, should we use, your’s, SCI, (mostly gun hunters) B&C (mostly gun hunters). No thank you I will stick with the oldest and most respected “BOW hunting” organization around.



The season doesn't dictate what is "Fair Chase" and what is not. "FC" is a general guiding principle that applies to all hunting practices. It is the foundation on which ALL hunting is based. If P&Y doesn't consider crossbows kills worthy of their books, that's fine by me, but that doesn't make against "FC". Here is your opportunity to prove your side and explain what about it is not "fair". Have at it.


----------



## Free Range

First off, the season does indeed dictate what is and is not fair chase. Rules like gun caliber, shot gun gauge limits, baiting, hounding, trapping, bow poundage, broadhead size, even the number of hooks you can have on a fishing pole are all fair chase rules. 
Rules like no lighted sight pins, no electronic devices attached to the bow, no telecommunications, no hunting from airplanes, are fair chase rules. In fact about the only thing in the game regs that isn’t a fair chase rule is the harvest limits. 
And just where do you think the game dept’s came up with these rules, well they asked people that are considered experts in the field, leading organizations that are respected nationally and have each sports best interest at heart. They get with the B&C club for input on big game hunting with a gun, they ask DU about duck hunting practices, they go to TU when looking into trout fishing reg’s. Yes they do all the studies and the DNR determines bag limits mostly from their own studies. But when it comes to hunting practices, they ask us. 
And guess what, the fast majority of “BOW” hunting (method) regulations were hashed out with clubs like the P&Y club. The P&Y club is mostly responsible for coming up with the fair chase rules implemented by the different state game agencies. 
Like it or not it has been decided that the x-bow is to much of an advantage and therefore should not be allowed in archery season. Simple as that, just like lighted sight pins, just like hunting from a plane, or using a CB radio to communicate the location of game. To bow hunters it is clearly in a different weapon class, and should be regulated to another season other then archery season.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> "Fair Chase" defined:
> 
> The B&C definition is a standard for all of hunting not just gun or bow. It is the foundation for all of today's sport hunting. Using a crossbow obviously violates none of the above definition.


Agreed. The crossbow violates none of B&C fair chase rules, as they are intended for gun hunting. I have no problem with crossbows in gun season.



twogun said:


> Using a crossbow also follows all the standards P&Y present:
> Crossbow use is in total compliance with all of this. But, P&Y adds this:
> SPECIAL NOTE: For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club's Records Program, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw.


Not so fast. First of all, there a huge number of crossbows that wouldn't be in compliance with this even if P&Y considered them bows (which they don't)....think Red Dot Sights.

Second of all - the fact that P&Y does not consider them to be bows mean they are not even ELIGIBLE to try and hit the rules of fair chase - they are OUT. P&Y rules of fair chase apply only to bowhunters...

You do not qualify. You begin outside the box, and the only way you can bowhunt in the spirit of fair chase is to use a bow.




twogun said:


> Since this is added as a "note" at the end of the "Fair Chase" definition, does that mean that it is part of it? That's the way it's being interpreted, and I believe it is exactly what they want. The introductory bolded phrase is significant. If P&Y wants to define what equipment can be used for inclusion in their books, that's fine. They're a private organization that can set whatever standards they want, but their specific record book standards should not be used to define "Fair Chase."


When you responded on the other thread with your very first huff of indignation, I knew that this is how you would try to weasel around the rules of fair chase. Semantics.....context.

It is not simply a matter "for their books"....it is bowhunting's rules of fair chase, just like B&C (another private organization) is the standard for the rest of hunting. 



twogun said:


> If a crossbow is not fair, how can a rifle be?


Noone said it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow or a rifle. What was said is that is not Fair Chase to hunt deer with a crossbow or a rifle during bowseason.



twogun said:


> What does the timing of the season have to do with it? How can it be "fair" at one time and not another?


Tread carefully, here. You will admit that hunting in the bowseason with a rifle would violate the rules and spirit of fair chase, would you not?


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> I would agree MUCH more with B&C than any of the rest!
> .....



Of course you would. They are the gunhunting group.

Bowhunters accept ADDITIONAL restrictions as part of our code of ethics...a fact that is obviously lost on you. 

Part of that code is to not use a device that locks the string back in a firing position.....your beloved crossbow does not fit the fair chase definition of a bow.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> The season doesn't dictate what is "Fair Chase" and what is not. "FC" is a general guiding principle that applies to all hunting practices. It is the foundation on which ALL hunting is based. If P&Y doesn't consider crossbows kills worthy of their books, that's fine by me, but that doesn't make against "FC". Here is your opportunity to prove your side and explain what about it is not "fair". Have at it.


This shows how little you understand about bowhunting.

There is hunting, then there is bowhunting. There is "Fair chase" for all hunters, and then there is a tougher and more stringent set of rules of fair chase for bowhunters. 

P&Y does not only not consider crossbows unworthy of their record book, they consider them outside the boundaries of bowhunting's fair chase rules.
(Why do you think the definition is on the "Ethics" page WITH the rules of fair chase?)

You can whine and cry all you want. The big reason that bowhunters oppose crossbows is that they feel they are not bows (and that violates their sense of fair chase.)

Don't worry though. You have ACF with its pansy record book. Maybe they will make a special set of fair chase rules so that you and all the other little stringgunners feel included....lol.


----------



## aceoky

twogun said:


> This is beautiful, not one countering argument, just a bunch of whining about the proper plaement of the thread. This is a forum to discuss "Legislation" and "Hunting Rights". My "rights" as a hunter are under attack. The fact that this ttack is oming from other hunters doesn't change that fact.
> 
> The justification that some are providing for coming after my hunting is that it violates "Fair Chase". I didn't bring it up. The anti-crossbow side did. Where was all this indignation for the proper place for this content when it was first mentioned?
> 
> Quit trying to dodge the issue. Those of you who want this moved want it moved because you can't support the absurdity of claiming crossbows violate "FC". You would much rather see it in a forum where you have an excuse not to address it.


WHEN/IF one considers ONE of the MAIN tactics the Anti-Hunting "squad" want to USE against HUNTERS , IS "FC", and THEIR own definition, *I* for one think this has a place here, AND the fact THE VERY "FC" REASON used against the crossbow inclusion in "bow season"...........yep looks to me like this is the "perfect place"

Marvin......IF nothing else, You are indeed a "hoot", I have YET to "lose" in any forum, but IF it makes YOU feel better.......to think otherwise, please continue to do so......

BOTH of your "buddies" who are trying to prove that you three are "it", can't post on a few forums, I submit "they lost"......I still can and do.........what does THAT tell you???

I do not and will not participate in personal attacks, I have ALL the facts and data on MY side, I debate with that, others have to use "crybaby", "squeal", "second class citizen"........etc. etc. etc. to even have ANYTHING to post.......

I say we'll let the people decide, what IS best AND who "lost" and who didn't.........I'm still waiting though for MY facts to be "disproven" and likely will for my entire lifetime , since real facts can't be disproven, when opinions, and other such things are easily dismissed.......fwiw

It's YOUR opinion, I can "win" on that forum, I have yet to see, any proof, I've lost on any forum on any board I've posted.......NICE dream, you have their in "your world", but here in the "real world", facts, hard data confirmed, beats opinions, ideas, perceptions, and selfishness, "hands down".....but thanks for playing ........sorry NO prizes for only playing ......:cocktail: <----- I will though give you that


----------



## thesource

Geez....

How old are you, Ace?


----------



## aceoky

I've said it many times before, but it bear repeating we CAN debate and discuss, as gentlemen.......the question IS are YOU willing to do so????? (whoever YOU is).......:darkbeer: 

I hope so, because when YOU don't others miss out, a thread gets "locked" or removed, and those people's input is not heard.........NOT good for anyone.......when WE keep it "civil", everyone gets to see various points, and decide for themselves which makes sense, which ones do not.....and IF they wish to add to the discussion or debate.......THAT is a "good thing" for everyone.......

NOT so hard to see, so please, let's keep things "civil" and allow this to move "forward", rather than at a "standstill".......thanks.....


----------



## aceoky

Free Range YOU said "*And guess what, the fast majority of “BOW” hunting (method) regulations were hashed out with clubs like the P&Y club. The P&Y club is mostly responsible for coming up with the fair chase rules implemented by the different state game agencies. *


But then YOU maintain that a Crossbow org(the UCBK) should NOT be allowed to do the same for the crossbow???

SEE? the hypocrisy??? AND THE proof of this does belong where it is at IMHO......

OH but they (P&Y) ONLY allow members OF THAT state's input to that same state?????? NOT.......so don't go "being holier than thou" on this ........either it's wrong for P&Y also, OR it's NOT wrong for the UCBK, IF WE follow thier example, you're ideas are "done" on the matter, ANYONE can see that fact!

There IS one very IMPORTANT differnece the UCBK, has NOT been trying to influence OTHER STATES, 

ONLY KY! 

Other than that, well.......the same ole same.....period EVEN IF we had those imaginary Candanians that no one has bothered to prove, we're supposed to have and don't .....


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Other than that, well.......the same ole same.....period EVEN IF we had those imaginary Candanians that no one has bothered to prove, we're supposed to have and don't .....


Dang - there's the hat trick!

3 times you've been proven wrong. You were in a better position when you said that canadians were not a majority, blah blah blah.

ANYONE can now do a search on AT for UCBK and find links to the excalibur forum where a dozen Canadians announced their membership.

Instead of having to prove a majority, all I have to do now is prove 1 so that they're not imaginary.

Thanks, dude.:darkbeer:


----------



## cynic

Fair Chase 
From its beginnings, the Club has grown to epitomize fair chase and sportsmanship in hunting. This fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit; it remains a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting's future with deep roots in America's hunting heritage.* Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal*. It does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural resources.

Can someone explain this part to me. What is improper or unfair advantage, is it hunting 25 ft up in a climber since most deer don't look up, a scent controlled blind wearing scentlok since most animals rely on their sense of smell for survival, putting a stand at a river crossing waiting for them to come out of the water don't these give the hunter an unfair advantage over the game. I don't think that I am to far out of line in saying that most hunters look for these advantages in order to harvest game, but we must first define what is improper or unfair


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Can someone explain this part to me. What is improper or unfair advantage, is it hunting 25 ft up in a climber since most deer don't look up, a scent controlled blind wearing scentlok since most animals rely on their sense of smell for survival, putting a stand at a river crossing waiting for them to come out of the water don't these give the hunter an unfair advantage over the game. I don't think that I am to far out of line in saying that most hunters look for these advantages in order to harvest game, but we must first define what is improper or unfair


EXACTLY. Since you can recognize this, it is obvious that you may be maturing as a hunter and a sportsmen.

We should define what is improper and unfair.

Let's start with the obvious, just as P&Y has.....crossbows.


----------



## Bow1

*Cross Bows are diferent*

I aint against them and dont care what you do with them, Pope and Young is no place for animals killed with them. Boone and Crocket is diferent in that anything goes as long as if is fairchase. Ehtical and Legal. Cross bow people need to create there own books aside from BC and PY if they want a gripe. PY has been the way it is for years and I feel should not include any crossbow kill in there. Its some what of a compound but no where near the skill or ability as a person with a stick of compound has to use to kill his pray. Thats why you can kill any critter with anything and get it into BC, PY is a club with rules and it should not ever be changed. X-Bow should get there own books, and I could give a rats long tail if it was open to true archery kills as we got our place. Oh I forgot you got Buckmasters and SCI. 

Keith


----------



## cynic

So Source in your infinite or rather finite wisdom are you saying that P&Y only considers crossbows unfair?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> So Source in your infinite or rather finite wisdom are you saying that P&Y only considers crossbows unfair?


Obviously not. I don't presume to speak for _the _Pope and Young Club, but it is quite apparent that they are dealing with fair chase issues as they arise. Electronics on the bow or arrow, for example, or the use of 2 way radios to direct a hunter towards his quarry.

Its just as obvious to me that crossbows violate fair chase during bowseason, just as MZ, slug guns, or centerfires would.

Pretty straightforward, really.


----------



## cynic

Bow1 said:


> *PY has been the way it is for years *and I feel should not include any crossbow kill in there. Its some what of a compound but no where near the skill or ability as a person with a stick of compound has to use to kill his pray. Thats why you can kill any critter with anything and get it into BC, *PY is a club with rules and it should not ever be changed.* X-Bow should get there own books, and I could give a rats long tail if it was open to true archery kills as we got our place. Oh I forgot you got Buckmasters and SCI.
> 
> Keith


Not to beat on such an illustrious organization as P&Y but if they had not changed their rules in order to allow higher letoff trophies most compound users would be looking for a new book to be in. I would have had more respect for them if they had not published the article that due to falling revenues the new higher letoff bows will be acceptable and those trophies get an * by there name..Even P&Y is adaptive to change for money


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Not to beat on such an illustrious organization as P&Y but if they had not changed their rules in order to allow higher letoff trophies most compound users would be looking for a new book to be in. I would have had more respect for them if they had not published the article that due to falling revenues the new higher letoff bows will be acceptable and those trophies get an * by there name..Even P&Y is adaptive to change for money


Are you suggesting that crossbows can buy their way in to P&Y's good graces?

I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## cynic

No I'm not suggesting that at all, They will enlist the xbow hunters in order to generate revenue


----------



## twogun

Freerange,

For the most part what you posted is accurate and actually supports my stance. Thank you. Following the game laws is a major component of "Fair Chase", and those laws vary from state to state. In the context you presented, crossbows are "Fair Chase" in Ohio, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Kentucky, Wyoming, and many other states although to a more limited degree. So, to make the blanket claim that crossbow hunting during general archery seasons violates "Fair Chase" is not accurate unless you think you can show that using a crossbow gives a hunter an "unfair" advantage over the game and that unfair advantage has something to do with the timing of the season.


----------



## twogun

Bow1 said:


> I aint against them and dont care what you do with them, Pope and Young is no place for animals killed with them. Boone and Crocket is diferent in that anything goes as long as if is fairchase. Ehtical and Legal. Cross bow people need to create there own books aside from BC and PY if they want a gripe. PY has been the way it is for years and I feel should not include any crossbow kill in there. Its some what of a compound but no where near the skill or ability as a person with a stick of compound has to use to kill his pray. Thats why you can kill any critter with anything and get it into BC, PY is a club with rules and it should not ever be changed. X-Bow should get there own books, and I could give a rats long tail if it was open to true archery kills as we got our place. Oh I forgot you got Buckmasters and SCI.
> 
> Keith



I agree with most of this. I don't think P&Y should recognise crossbow kills either. I would have even less respect, if that's possible, for them than I do now if they changed.


----------



## awshucks

Robin Hood Robin Hood with his Band of Men
Robin Hood Robin Hood Riding thru the Glen
Feared by the Bad, Loved by the Good.....

Show started early today guys, LOL. Thank you so much for the entertainment!! Just imagine, the whole world gets to read how some schmuck legally hunting an animal in it's season is violating some yahoo's interpretation of Fair Chase. LMAO Some of you P&Y members are doing more to advance the crossbow cause than anyone I know. Keep up the good work!!!


----------



## twogun

> Noone said it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow or a rifle. What was said is that is not Fair Chase to hunt deer with a crossbow or a rifle during bowseason.


"Fair Chase" is bigger than bowhunting. It applies to all hunting. If P&Y wants to set their own specific rules for their competitive trophy recognition system, that's fine, but unless they/you can show that using a crossbow during one time of the year versus another violates this definition:



> Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal.



You/they are taking "Fair Chase" out of its intended context and selfishly applying it to satisfy a political agenda.

P&Y has demonstrated over the years that their version of "Fair Chase" can be altered with the swipe of a pen to satisfy their selfish needs. THe challenge here is for you ar anyone else to demonstrate how using a crossbow is "unfair" to the game. We all understand that you and P&Y don't consider crossbows to be appropriate for use during bowseason. Big deal. I don't care. Ohio, Arkansas, Georgia, Tennessee, Alabamma, Wyoming, and Kentucky do (The list will grow).

Again, "You don't understand" and "It's not a bow" won't cut it. You need to show how using a crossbow during general bowseason gives the hunter an unfair advantage over the *animal*


----------



## Jim C

twogun said:


> "Fair Chase" is bigger than bowhunting. It applies to all hunting. If P&Y wants to set their own specific rules for their competitive trophy recognition system, that's fine, but unless they/you can show that using a crossbow during one time of the year versus another violates this definition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You/they are taking "Fair Chase" out of its intended context and selfishly applying it to satisfy a political agenda.
> 
> P&Y has demonstrated over the years that their version of "Fair Chase" can be altered with the swipe of a pen to satisfy their selfish needs. THe challenge here is for you ar anyone else to demonstrate how using a crossbow is "unfair" to the game. We all understand that you and P&Y don't consider crossbows to be appropriate for use during bowseason. Big deal. I don't care. Ohio, Arkansas, Georgia, Tennessee, Alabamma, Wyoming, and Kentucky do (The list will grow).
> 
> Again, "You don't understand" and "It's not a bow" won't cut it. You need to show how using a crossbow during general bowseason gives the hunter an unfair advantage over the *animal*


Source cannot

he has no clue about crossbows or crossbow hunting

END OF STORY


----------



## aceoky

Bow1 said:


> I aint against them and dont care what you do with them, Pope and Young is no place for animals killed with them. Boone and Crocket is diferent in that anything goes as long as if is fairchase. Ehtical and Legal. Cross bow people need to create there own books aside from BC and PY if they want a gripe. PY has been the way it is for years and I feel should not include any crossbow kill in there. Its some what of a compound but no where near the skill or ability as a person with a stick of compound has to use to kill his pray. Thats why you can kill any critter with anything and get it into BC, PY is a club with rules and it should not ever be changed. X-Bow should get there own books, and I could give a rats long tail if it was open to true archery kills as we got our place. Oh I forgot you got Buckmasters and SCI.
> 
> Keith


So Keith you admit, in your own post......you are against them , fair enough, but WE have MORE books that accept them than do not.....very interesting........dontcha think....??


----------



## Bow1

*cynic*

I did not vote on that and the animals I killed that qualify for p&y where killed with less than 65% let off. Way before any letoff above 65% bows. I dont even atempt to put what I do in any of the books. I am not saying I agree with that. They set their rules and that is what they did, it keeps it even. They changed a little, I can live with that, but the day they allow cross bow kills into their ranks is the day that all end comes. It is not what it was made for and never will be. 

Someone mentioned its an animal and the difference is nothing, x-bow compound are the same, you got to be on crack to think that killing an animal with a cross bow is as easy as killing one with a bow (traditional, compound or whatever), the simple fact that you have to plan your shot, draw your bow and make a kill shot, where as with a cross bow is just like a loaded gun or excuse me a loaded bow. It is not anywhere close to the same, yea its on wheels, blah blah, but it cocked and loaded aim an fire. World of diference. Anyone that bithches and moans about it being the same and just as chalenging has never done any serious bowhunting. I am not saying yea your cocked and loaded shoot that deer at 100 yards, of course not, I am saying that there is a hell of a lot of difference between a man or woman neeling in a blind or behind a tree when I smart, bruiser of buck walks by and you got to silenty draw that bow back and connect. There are thousands of things that could go wrong just on the split seconds of actually getting that bow back to fire, where as with a cross bow that is all eliminated, and everything before that the x-bow user can say go wrong apply to the regular bowhunter but does not apply to x-bow user at the moment they have to prep the bow to shoot. X-bow are already to go. Hmm how the hell is that the same? I aint got nothing against them, shoot them all you want but you are not the same and just as the same reason goes that I took to bow hunting, any idiot can walk out in the woods and shoot something with a gun at 300 yards, some get lucky. X-Bow users are second on that. Hey you may be the greatest bowhunter ever, sneak in and slay them, but dont come into my bow season. Since your so great you should be able to take the trophys during gun season. What I mean is if you are wanting a different challenge, or just like the allure of the x-bow take your stuff and hunt the other seasons when anything goes. Your already bored with genuine bowhunting or whatever. Stop getting you stuff in a wad when the general bowhunting population does not want you to hunt during their season. Kid yourself all you want they are not the same.

Keith


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> Source cannot
> 
> he has no clue about crossbows or crossbow hunting
> 
> END OF STORY


He has NO clue about anything, and it seems to go beyond, hunting even.........HE ONLY accused me of a threat I never made to get "rid of me", and it worked, as a gun owner, I don't take those things lightly, and frankly HE is not worth the risk any longer (*though the risk from his rants are not that much, one I will not take again)......

NOW he contends that in his "liitle stupid world", that HE has somehow proven ME wrong three times, he is so full of himself, not to mention "other thing" he obviously has NO grasp on not only reality, but on "facts and data", what they ARE, and though he says that he's "Mr. Scientific" he can't EVEN see TWO DIFFERENT QUESTIONS ASKED WITH TWO DIFFERENT % OUTCOMES......

He has proven NOTHING to my satisfaction, and I seriosly doubt anyone takes anything he says at all seriously one bit.....


----------



## Bow1

*I aint against anything hunting*

I am not against cross bows, My borther use one (disability) and I give him crap about it all the time (funning) it gives him more time in the woods, and for someone that can not hunt with a regular bow I am all for it during regular bow season. Any man that is heathy should be able to pull a bow back and kill and animal with a regular bow, if not then find another season. I say anything legal goes, I dont agree with x-bows being clumped in with regular bow season nor do I agree with them being included into any record book for bow killed animals. ITS DIFFERENT, get it, you dont grab the string and draw it back then fire, it may be on wheels or limbs like a bow but it is not the same. Are you kidding me. Why do so many try to argue a mute point, They are not the same never whill be, you want them to same use a releas and draw it back then when your on target pull the releas triger. Better yet use fingers. 

Keith


----------



## Bow1

*Oh and this*

I dont think x-bows are bad or illegal or not fairchase. They have their place, and they are legal and that is fine, No place in P&Y nor bowhunting season unless disabled, thats all (my opinion), should be a separate season or something, and of course be able to be used in all seasons except Archery. Out of Gun and Muzzle loading x-bows are below them, and just above archery, after that its hands on, bowie knofe then just catching them and hog tying them.
And last you can shoot what ever the hell you want, I dont care I am just giving you my opinion and any of you x-bow users can come to my place and let me spank you in some target practice and we can have some beers after. 
:darkbeer: 
Keith


----------



## aceoky

Bow1 said:


> I did not vote on that and the animals I killed that qualify for p&y where killed with less than 65% let off. Way before any letoff above 65% bows. I dont even atempt to put what I do in any of the books. I am not saying I agree with that. They set their rules and that is what they did, it keeps it even. They changed a little, I can live with that, but the day they allow cross bow kills into their ranks is the day that all end comes. It is not what it was made for and never will be.
> 
> Someone mentioned its an animal and the difference is nothing, x-bow compound are the same, you got to be on crack to think that killing an animal with a cross bow is as easy as killing one with a bow (traditional, compound or whatever), the simple fact that you have to plan your shot, draw your bow and make a kill shot, where as with a cross bow is just like a loaded gun or excuse me a loaded bow. It is not anywhere close to the same, yea its on wheels, blah blah, but it cocked and loaded aim an fire. World of diference. Anyone that bithches and moans about it being the same and just as chalenging has never done any serious bowhunting. I am not saying yea your cocked and loaded shoot that deer at 100 yards, of course not, I am saying that there is a hell of a lot of difference between a man or woman neeling in a blind or behind a tree when I smart, bruiser of buck walks by and you got to silenty draw that bow back and connect. There are thousands of things that could go wrong just on the split seconds of actually getting that bow back to fire, where as with a cross bow that is all eliminated, and everything before that the x-bow user can say go wrong apply to the regular bowhunter but does not apply to x-bow user at the moment they have to prep the bow to shoot. X-bow are already to go. Hmm how the hell is that the same? I aint got nothing against them, shoot them all you want but you are not the same and just as the same reason goes that I took to bow hunting, any idiot can walk out in the woods and shoot something with a gun at 300 yards, some get lucky. X-Bow users are second on that. Hey you may be the greatest bowhunter ever, sneak in and slay them, but dont come into my bow season. Since your so great you should be able to take the trophys during gun season. What I mean is if you are wanting a different challenge, or just like the allure of the x-bow take your stuff and hunt the other seasons when anything goes. Your already bored with genuine bowhunting or whatever. Stop getting you stuff in a wad when the general bowhunting population does not want you to hunt during their season. Kid yourself all you want they are not the same.
> 
> Keith


Sorry, but *I* just don't agree, that it IS that hard to draw on an animal, I last year killed a mature whitetail @ six FEET with a bow, full draw while the head was down, picked a spot, and boom, done deal.....it can be done and IS done on a regular basis.......the problem IS when others try to decide what OTHER HUNTERS should use.......and when they should be allowed to use them......

YOU seem to think , that "drawing when they're there" is the problem, and I agree that it takes time to learn how and when to do so..........however, HERE is the problem, even if drawn, the crossbow(bigger and more bulky.....i.e. larger frontal area) had to be raised for the shot........AND that LOUD safety must be released.............NOW compare and be honest......if only with yourself.......

BTW I use an old PSE HIGH draw weight, and more than the old P&Y letoff, with ONE sight, (non fiber optic)....and hunt 100% from the ground(and that is exactly how I took the <6 FEET MATURE whitetail just last year.......(I've taken more than several btw this way, at various ranges, so I'm NOT speaking as someone who's guessing......fwiw)

That being said, YOU honestly think it's THAT much easier, to raise an 8 lb crossbow, AND get that LOUD safety off, compared to a compound??? Compared to a 85% or better let-off compound..........in reality????????

It's not .......and most know it......(and I'm betting YOU do as well) kidding your relatives is "fun".......but.......let's please focus on reality here .......


----------



## aceoky

Bow1 said:


> I am not against cross bows, My borther use one (disability) and I give him crap about it all the time (funning) it gives him more time in the woods, and for someone that can not hunt with a regular bow I am all for it during regular bow season. * Any man that is heathy *should be able to pull a bow back and kill and animal with a regular bow, if not then find another season. I say anything legal goes, I dont agree with x-bows being clumped in with regular bow season nor do I agree with them being included into any record book for bow killed animals. ITS DIFFERENT, get it, you dont grab the string and draw it back then fire, it may be on wheels or limbs like a bow but it is not the same. Are you kidding me. Why do so many try to argue a mute point, They are not the same never whill be, you want them to same use a releas and draw it back then when your on target pull the releas triger. Better yet use fingers.
> 
> Keith


Oh yeah, what about the women, or kids, or senior who has bow hunted most of his life, and just can't do it any longer?? OR the man who works two jobs and just can't devote the time to practice any more that he KNOWS he need???

See I used to think exactly like that, then I realized, 

A). not only men archery hunt and there are those who would love to do so, but can't......
B). There are those who "used" to but due to time constraints , or age, can NO LONGER do so.....

C.) THEY deserve it just as much as I do, (maybe more so).....who am *I* to care much less decide, who or what is allowed for THEM..........conclusion.........NO GOOD reason why ALL of them shouldn't be allowed to archery hunt with me........in fact I would welcome EACH AND EVERY one of them..........

Do YOU agree??


----------



## Tim4Trout

While P&Y and B&C are certainly entitled to establish criterea for inclusion into their "books" ...

Based upon statements such as ..._Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable._

*I decide for myself what fair chase is.*

NOT THEM !!!

Basically I define it as follows ...

_"Attempting to harvest a game animal using methods legal where I hunt in conjunction with my hunting skills pitted aganst the natural survival skills of the game animal I am hunting."_

Notes ---

1) I do not blindly consider "fair chase" violated by an enclosure.

2) I do not consider the use of certain electronic equipment such as laser rangefinders and lighted sight pins as violating "fair chase" principles, but rather as enhancements to help me acheive a quick clean kill.

3) I do not consider the use of a crossbow, which propels its arrow in the same fashion as a conventional bow, kills in the same fashion as a conventional bow, and has the same effective range as a conventional bow as violating "fair chase" during an archery season.

******

In closing ...

Certain tactics which some may label as violating "fair chase" may not necessarily provide the hunter with an improper advantage over the sought animal, but rather provide the hunter implimenting such with an advantage over other hunters who choose not to impliment such.


----------



## Free Range

> By Twogun
> So, to make the blanket claim that crossbow hunting during general archery seasons violates "Fair Chase" is not accurate unless you think you can show that using a crossbow gives a hunter an "unfair" advantage over the game and that unfair advantage has something to do with the timing of the season.


We need to get back on track, either I assumed wrongly we were talking about bow season, or you are getting away from the issue at hand. 
First it is possible to have fair chase rules that go beyond the legal requirements. One that comes to mind is, high fences, right now it is considered not fair chase by P&Y to hunt behind a high fence no matter how many acres, but you can legally do so. So just because something is legal does not mean it is fair chase. Hunting with the x-bow in and of it’s self is not UN-fair chase, it only becomes so during archery season, the same applies to guns, just as Source has said. It has advantages over the bow, that, in our opinion goes beyond fair chase for archery equipment, just as poison pods, or exploding broadheads. 

The x-bow in those states, are not fair chase during archery season just because they are legal.

And unfair advantage over game, is hard to define. One could argue that anytime you kill an animal you must have had an unfair advantage, other wise the animal would have escaped. 
The game dept’s must weigh game management with hunter participation. A certain number of animals must be culled each year to maintain a healthy herd. That number could be accomplished in one or two days, given the right hunting methods, and could be done by a small % of the hunters. But then there wouldn’t be much money coming in through hunting licenses, and not many would want to compete in a 2 day free-for-all. 
So restrictions are set as to method and weapon use, guns get a couple weeks, ML get their own week or so, and bows get much longer, up to 3 or 4 months in some states. 



> "Fair Chase" is bigger than bowhunting. It applies to all hunting. If P&Y wants to set their own specific rules for their competitive trophy recognition system, that's fine, but unless they/you can show that using a crossbow during one time of the year versus another violates this definition:


Now you’re getting silly, you take one sentence and hang your hat on it. I’m told there is a verse in the Bible that says it’s ok to own slaves, is the whole of the Bible wrong because of one verse? 



> Again, "You don't understand" and "It's not a bow" won't cut it. You need to show how using a crossbow during general bowseason gives the hunter an unfair advantage over the animal


So are you saying any method that can’t be shown to your satisfaction to be unfair over the animal should be allowed in archery season. I submit that any time you kill an animal you have had an unfair advantage. The trick here is to decide which unfair advantages we should allow. 




> By Ace
> NOW he contends that in his "liitle stupid world",


Sound like a personal attack to me.


----------



## Jim C

claiming that a crossbow is "unfair" or violates the rules of "fair chase" when used during archery season is a specious and bald faced LIE. There is no evidence whatsoever that a crossbow gives a hunter a net overall advantage over a modern compound bow while using a rifle or shotgun or pistol certainly does 

its just another one of the lies that we constantly see from certain factions

that you base your claim Free Range on the Opinion of the Source ought to tell us something


----------



## Free Range

> By Ace
> the whole time they only prove what they really are, selfish , elite (in thier own minds only) snobs......
> 
> I do not and will not participate in personal attacks,


Did you really say both of the above



> I have ALL the facts and data on MY side,


You mean only the facts you deem worthy, there are facts on the other side, you just don’t accept them.



> I debate with that, others have to use "crybaby", "squeal", "second class citizen"........


And yet others use selfish, elite, snobs…



> But then YOU maintain that a Crossbow org(the UCBK) should NOT be allowed to do the same for the crossbow???


I never said that, Ace please stick to facts, so others can join in and we can hear their input. 



> OH but they (P&Y) ONLY allow members OF THAT state's input to that same state?????? NOT.......so don't go "being holier than thou" on this ........either it's wrong for P&Y also, OR it's NOT wrong for the UCBK, IF WE follow thier example, you're ideas are "done" on the matter, ANYONE can see that fact!


Can someone please explain to me what the above quote is saying? 
For one the P&Y club is a National club, and the UBCK is a state club, apples and oranges. And two I don’t care if you want to set a standard of fair chase rules for the x-bow, go for it. 



> By Twogun I think
> Can someone explain this part to me. What is improper or unfair advantage, is it hunting 25 ft up in a climber since most deer don't look up, a scent controlled blind wearing scentlok since most animals rely on their sense of smell for survival, putting a stand at a river crossing waiting for them to come out of the water don't these give the hunter an unfair advantage over the game. I don't think that I am to far out of line in saying that most hunters look for these advantages in order to harvest game, but we must first define what is improper or unfair


It has been defined, all you have to do is read P&Y’s website. And beyond that it’s one of those, if you have to ask then it probably isn’t. Bottom line is some people could care less about fair chase, and are always trying to find loopholes or trying to bend the rules or are trying to say, “well if this is fair chase then why isn’t that”. All in an effort to justify what they are doing and what they already know isn’t fair chase. If fair chase doesn’t mean anything to you then go out and kill however you want, if it’s within the law you have nothing to worry about. But in my experience those that try to stretch the meaning of fair chase are the same ones that will try to stretch the law too.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Following the game laws is a major component of "Fair Chase", and those laws vary from state to state. In the context you presented, crossbows are "Fair Chase" in Ohio, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Kentucky, Wyoming, and many other states although to a more limited degree. So, to make the blanket claim that crossbow hunting during general archery seasons violates "Fair Chase" is not accurate unless you think you can show that using a crossbow gives a hunter an "unfair" advantage over the game and that unfair advantage has something to do with the timing of the season.


Following the game laws is just a subset of fair chase. It is not up to the states to define fair chase. Just because it is legal does not mean it is ethical or fair chase.

Crossbows are NEVER fair chase during bowseason, just as a rifle would never be fair chase during bowseason.


----------



## Marvin

Twogun has just taken a classic but fatal stance of using using Gun definitions and applying them to archery. Not practical, realistic or even remotely in the ball park. It makes me wonder if he would squeal on B&C if he had 10 deer in a 20'x20' foot enclosure(with a corn feeder no less) and they were infringing on his "rights" to do so and calling it hunting (insert apathy here).


----------



## aceoky

IF and ONLY IF *one chooses to accept P&Y's definition *of "Fair Chase" does it matter....and then only to them, NOT others.......

Many people (MOST?) don't care a whit about them, or their book, or their rules or definitions...period, thus to try to imply THEY are the "only" ones that matter is not only wrong, it is in a very big way!

JimC, I agree there is NO good reason to suggest that, there is NO proof, but I notice that does not keep the claim from being made....again typical of those who only care about what they want and try to force other's to do "it their way or not at all!"

Then there are some that feel exactly the same about compounds during archery season, but you notice, they mostly don't agree with that concept, even though there isn't enough difference in a crossbow and a compound in the REAL world to include one and not the other.....they overlook that fact, because it seems to suit their purpose(to them, not likely to most).....

I think there is more than enough "room" for all archery in archery season, including the crossbow, they certainly have NO real facts, or data to back up anything they claim, including the "fair chase" part, other than a few opinions, and most really don't care what some "elite" bow club's opinions are....sure some do, but to actually think that P&Y speaks even for most bowhunters is going a bit "overboard", I've seen thousands of posts, where even when a record was taken they weren't going to include it in the "elite book", for various reasons!!!

So while some hold them to such "high esteem", to infer that most archers do, is only not accurate but presumes again an opinion impossible to "back up", with facts.....

BTW in those states where the crossbow IS legal for the entire archery season.......the HUNTERS seem to have no problems using them, and I would guess they find them to be "fair chase" and "ethical" regardless of the claims made....THAT is really what matters what EACH hunter thinks, NOT what a "select few" try to define for us all!!!


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> claiming that a crossbow is "unfair" or violates the rules of "fair chase" when used during archery season is a specious and bald faced LIE.


Well, there you have it, boys. The great JimC has made his declaration and that's the end of that.

Or is it?

Should we listen solely to the opinion of Jim? Or should that be weighed against the opinion of the legendary Pope and Young club, who has "come to epitomize fair chase." and is the preeminent bowhunting organization in the country?

Should we, perhaps, listen to the opinion of the NABC, who's 72 organizations agree with the stance of pope and young?

Should we believe the 70% of AT members who do not consider crossbows to be archery (automatically prohibiting crossbows from any bowhunting fair chase discussions, by the way)?

How about the hundreds of thousands of bowhunters nationwide - should we ask their opinion?


----------



## PMantle

Although this discussion SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING, I'll join in. The weapon of choice has very little to do with fair chase. Now, if we are talking fully automatic weapons, then maybe there would be something to discuss. Whether or not crossbows should be allowed in a bow season has nothing to do with fair chase. This is the worst topic ever.


----------



## twogun

> It has advantages over the bow,


There are many issues in your last post that could be batted around, but this is the crux of the issue. We're debating "Fair Chase", and fortunately, we have a definition to fall back on for clarification and interpretation. Nowhere in the definition of "FC", B&C or P&Y, is there any mention of "fairness" of one piece of equipment to the other. "FC" is about sportsmanship and conservation:



> The concept of fair chase was born out of a desperate need to save wildlife. During the late 1800s and early 1900s our wild game populations were at their lowest levels in recorded history.





> At the turn of the 19th Century there were essentially no laws or regulations related to appropriate land use or the taking of wildlife for food or for sport. Conservation was not part of our English language. This vacuum demanded that someone step up and take responsibility. Since hunters, fishermen, and trappers were among the heaviest users of these wildlife resources it only made sense that they lead the charge for recovery and conservation. But before that could happen, it was necessary that hunters evolve into "sportsmen" and those sportsmen needed to attain credibility as caretakers of wildlife to replace the image of exploiters derived during the lawless days of market hunting and unrestricted taking of wildlife.





> At the turn of the 19th Century there were essentially no laws or regulations related to appropriate land use or the taking of wildlife for food or for sport. Conservation was not part of our English language. This vacuum demanded that someone step up and take responsibility. Since hunters, fishermen, and trappers were among the heaviest users of these wildlife resources it only made sense that they lead the charge for recovery and conservation. But before that could happen, it was necessary that hunters evolve into "sportsmen" and those sportsmen needed to attain credibility as caretakers of wildlife to replace the image of exploiters derived during the lawless days of market hunting and unrestricted taking of wildlife.
> 
> In a unifying effort to save game populations from further decline, hunters imposed upon themselves a code of ethical conduct. This code defined the rules of behavior required to be a true sportsman. This code was - nothing fancy. It was composed of common sense guidelines. Accepting this code involved accepting hunting seasons, bag limits, and appropriate means and methods for taking game that were being established for the first time. Of the many events that set the course of conservation in North America, hunters accepting responsibility for the welfare of wildlife and a code of ethics for the taking of this wildlife in "fair chase" were among the most important.


"FC" was not designed to be manipulated by one group of hunters looking out for their own special interests. To do so is a basturdization of the ideal. It is a corruption of the foundation on which all sport hunting is based.



> Hunting is a personal experience filled with personal choices taking place in many areas with varying traditions and rules. The concept of "fair chase" is a noble one and something that is meant to be a unifying, governing force. *The concept was not created as a test to divide ethical hunters.*


http://www.huntfairchase.com/index.php/fuseaction/ethics.why


----------



## Free Range

> By JimC
> claiming that a crossbow is "unfair" or violates the rules of "fair chase" when used during archery season is a specious and bald faced LIE. There is no evidence whatsoever that a crossbow gives a hunter a net overall advantage over a modern compound bow while using a rifle or shotgun or pistol certainly does


JimC glad to have you back, did I read somewhere that you lost you farther, if so, my condolences. 

First lets be honest, for the most part any time modern man goes afield to hunt we have the advantage. What we are talking about, really, is where do we draw the line, and yes sometimes the step from one side to the other can be hardly noticeable, but sometimes that step can be huge, it all depends on who is measuring the step. 
And just because you reject the rules of fair chase set forth by the P&Y club, does not make them a lie. For most bow hunters the rules of fair chase are, as defined by the P&Y club. And the x-bow during archery season is clearly a violation of fair chase.


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> There are many issues in your last post that could be batted around, but this is the crux of the issue. We're debating "Fair Chase", and fortunately, we have a definition to fall back on for clarification and interpretation. Nowhere in the definition of "FC", B&C or P&Y, is there any mention of "fairness" of one piece of equipment to the other. "FC" is about sportsmanship and conservation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "FC" was not designed to be manipulated by one group of hunters looking out for their own special interests. To do so is a basturdization of the ideal. It is a corruption of the foundation on which all sport hunting is based.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.huntfairchase.com/index.php/fuseaction/ethics.why


 i actually agree with you here. Bowhunters should take bowhunting and gun hunters take gunhunting. its a win win. Thanks for bringing it up. I also doubt when those "rules" were made up we had such a controversial weapon like the crossbow around.


----------



## twogun

PMantle said:


> Although *this discussion SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING*, I'll join in. The weapon of choice has very little to do with fair chase. Now, if we are talking fully automatic weapons, then maybe there would be something to discuss. Whether or not crossbows should be allowed in a bow season has nothing to do with fair chase. This is the worst topic ever.



You're right. This conversation should not be happening and is potentially harmful to all of hunting, but there are people here who push the idea that crossbows violate "FC". They boast about their nonhunting neighbors whom they've convinced that tens of thousands of ethical "Fair Chase" hunters are cheaters. Their (lack of) logic could be carried out and applied to all hunting.


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> You're right. This conversation should not be happening and is potentially harmful to all of hunting, but there are people here who push the idea that crossbows violate "FC". They boast about their nonhunting neighbors whom they've convinced that tens of thousands of ethical "Fair Chase" hunters are cheaters. Their (lack of) logic could be carried out and applied to all hunting.


I am fighting for bowhunting. Which is a subtopic of hunting. just like gun hunting.


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> JimC glad to have you back, did I read somewhere that you lost you farther, if so, my condolences.
> 
> First lets be honest, for the most part any time modern man goes afield to hunt we have the advantage. What we are talking about, really, is where do we draw the line, and yes sometimes the step from one side to the other can be hardly noticeable, but sometimes that step can be huge, it all depends on who is measuring the step.
> And just because you reject the rules of fair chase set forth by the P&Y club, does not make them a lie. For most bow hunters the rules of fair chase are, as defined by the P&Y club. And the x-bow during archery season is clearly a violation of fair chase.



Thanks

P&Y has no relevance to me and should have no relevance to game departments. It has proven it has no standards that are concrete. If you want to hunt within their rules to make their book-fine-just don't tell me that an 80% or 90% letoff bow is "unfair" or that a crossbow is either

I would wager I know more about crossbows than the entire board of P&Y so I really have no use for novices telling me how they FEEL


----------



## Free Range

> By Ace
> Many people (MOST?) don't care a whit about them, or their book, or their rules or definitions...period, thus to try to imply THEY are the "only" ones that matter is not only wrong, it is in a very big way!


I know you haven’t been here long, but we already decided this issue a couple months ago, Most bow hunters do not feel as you do about the P&Y club. According to the poll taken here on the x-bow forum, and on the bowhunting forum, most people thought highly of the P&Y club and I don’t remember the exact % but a good deal thought they do a good job of helping the state DNR’s set hunting standards for archery season. And we all know you much you love polls and surveys, so we shouldn’t here this kind of talk from you again, right? 



> "FC" was not designed to be manipulated by one group of hunters looking out for their own special interests. To do so is a basturdization of the ideal. It is a corruption of the foundation on which all sport hunting is based.


I guess that makes sense, but I don’t see your point, do you think that there should be just one set of fair chase rules and they should/could be applied to all types of weapons equally. Basically the quotes you posted say, don’t over harvest game animals. Is that the end of your fair chase ideals, as long as the herds can handle the pressure, it’s within fair chase? 

I have no idea what the B&C fair chase rules are, I don’t hunt with a gun much, at all for big game. So could care less, but I do know they accept in their books animals killed by non-hunting methods, and also accept deer that can not be confirmed as even being killed legally. I don’t think they accept deer that have been knowingly killed illegally, but can’t swear to that.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Although this discussion SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING, I'll join in. The weapon of choice has very little to do with fair chase. Now, if we are talking fully automatic weapons, then maybe there would be something to discuss. Whether or not crossbows should be allowed in a bow season has nothing to do with fair chase. This is the worst topic ever.


Excellent point-I concur


----------



## Free Range

> P&Y has no relevance to me and should have no relevance to game departments.


So, where should the game dept’s get their guidance? Or do you think we should just give them a blank slate and accept whatever their terms are as far as bow hunting means and methods? Remember bowhunters are a very small % of hunters, so it’s safe to say that same % would carry over to the game depts., which means that at best there are 1 or 2 people in each state’s game dept that bow hunt. Wouldn’t it be better to ask for assistance from a nationally know and respected bow hunting organization when trying to determine bow hunting regs? 

I know some of you say it’s all up to the game dept’s and what does it matter as long as the resource can handle it. I know you don’t really believe that, but it does sound good, and works for your argument. If the game dept is the end all of hunting regulations, then we would have one season, any weapon.


----------



## Jim C

they get paid to set guidelines based on various facts-no fact is available to demonstrate that a crossbow should be treated differently than a compound

its like saying pump rifles should be treated differently than lever action ones

PMantle is correct, Fair Chase has nothing to do with this issue


----------



## Free Range

> PMantle is correct, Fair Chase has nothing to do with this issue


I agree with the simple concept that fair chase is not weapon related, and is more about restrictions on how we hunt, then what we hunt with. But as Thesource so aptly put it, would hunting with a gun during bow season be considered fair chase? It is after all the same as hunting with a gun during gun season, and if it’s ok to hunt with a gun during gun season, what makes it not ok during bow season? 
Maybe it isn’t fair chase rules that make it not ok to hunt with a gun during bow season, maybe it’s something else, but then what do we call this, something else. Because laws are arbitrary, the law doesn’t say it’s not ok, just that it’s not legal, and who are they to say that deer can only be killed with a gun from December 1st to December 15th? Why is killing deer at that time with a gun better, worse, or more legal then at any other time of the year?


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> There are many issues in your last post that could be batted around, but this is the crux of the issue. We're debating "Fair Chase", and fortunately, we have a definition to fall back on for clarification and interpretation. Nowhere in the definition of "FC", B&C or P&Y, is there any mention of "fairness" of one piece of equipment to the other. "FC" is about sportsmanship and conservation:


I agree it is about sportsmanship and conservation.

But I stridently disagree when you misrepresent by stating "Nowhere in the definition of "FC", B&C or P&Y, is there any mention of "fairness" of one piece of equipment to the other."

There are numerous equipment rules in the definition of fair chase:

_
Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. 
From any power vehicle or power boat. 
By "jacklighting" or shining at night. 
By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. 
While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. 
By the use of any power vehicles or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. 
By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating, or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. 
Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable. 

SPECIAL NOTE: For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club's Records Program, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A let-off exceeding sixty-five (65) percent, using the A.M.O. standard method of measurement, will be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. For further information, please click here for the "Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow and Broadhead"_

Clearly, equipment plays a significant role in the rules of fair chase.

You conveniently overlook this, actually misrepresent it, to try and justify a place in bowhunting fair chase for your crossthing.

It doesn't make the grade.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> P&Y has no relevance to me and should have no relevance to game departments.


OBVIOUSLY it is not in your best interest to abide by P&Y fair chase....that doesn't mean they are not correct.

Game departments nationwide seek the counsel of P&Y....as they should. They are the voice of bowhunting.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> OBVIOUSLY it is not in your best interest to abide by P&Y fair chase....that doesn't mean they are not correct.
> 
> Game departments nationwide seek the counsel of P&Y....as they should. They are the voice of bowhunting.


they are the voice of elitism, selfishness and ego inflation

they have some value but when it comes to crossbows they are irrelevant


----------



## Bow1

*Good One*

thesource :thumbs_up 

Keith


----------



## Tim4Trout

thesource said:


> Game departments nationwide seek the counsel of P&Y....as they should. They are the voice of bowhunting.


They represent and speak only for themselves and their supporters whose primary interest is often limited to the size of a deer's "rack".

They do not speak as my voice, nor do they speak for the voice of the masses.


----------



## thesource

Tim4Trout said:


> They do not speak as my voice


This may be very true. You are entitled to your opinion.



Tim4Trout said:


> nor do they speak for the voice of the masses.


This is not. Please show some evidence to back this up. As it has already been pointed out, a majority of AT members hold P&Y in high regard, even if you do not.

In the absence of any evidence, I will have to categorize this as more sour grapes of those who resent P&Y because the ideals they espouse are not in line with yours.


----------



## PMantle

Free Range said:


> I agree with the simple concept that fair chase is not weapon related, and is more about restrictions on how we hunt, then what we hunt with. But as Thesource so aptly put it, would hunting with a gun during bow season be considered fair chase? It is after all the same as hunting with a gun during gun season, and if it’s ok to hunt with a gun during gun season, what makes it not ok during bow season?
> Maybe it isn’t fair chase rules that make it not ok to hunt with a gun during bow season, maybe it’s something else, but then what do we call this, something else. Because laws are arbitrary, the law doesn’t say it’s not ok, just that it’s not legal, and who are they to say that deer can only be killed with a gun from December 1st to December 15th? Why is killing deer at that time with a gun better, worse, or more legal then at any other time of the year?


Even killing a deer out of season is fair chase. It's just illegal. Gun, bow, crossbow-it does not matter. Legal and fair chase are not really related. Some things are legal, yet not fair chase. Penned deer for example. Perfectly legal in some States, but not fair chase no matter what weapon is used. Look, I oppose crossbows in bow season as much as anyone, but I am not about to label their use, in any season not fair chase. It's just not even a close call. 

So, what we have here is... one more thread to post the exact same arguments that have been posted in the other threads involving crossbows, yet in this thread, there is no legislative tie. I guess I should be happy since none of the mods will let me view the crossbow forum despite the fact that I have not even been warned about my conduct there. I really wish we could all move on until there is a reason, in this forum, to discuss this.


----------



## thesource

PMantle said:


> Even killing a deer out of season is fair chase. It's just illegal. Gun, bow, crossbow-it does not matter. Legal and fair chase are not really related.


PMantle - with all due respect, it is not:

_
FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. 
HUNTER ETHICS
Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of conservation of natural resources. Hunting in today's world involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting, which includes the following tenets: 
*1. Obey all applicable laws and regulations.*_

I realize that the definition of fair chase is somewhat nebulous, but the principle of fair chase is critical to the future of hunting. Anything illegal is ALWAYS outside the bounds of fair chase, but (as you have pointed out) things that are legal are not necessarily fair chase.

I firmly believe that many, if not most, of the bowhunters who are opposed to crossbows in bowseason are against their admission because it violates their sense of fair chase.


----------



## PMantle

Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree with that definition. Fair chase has more to do with the critter being hunted, than with the arbitrary rules man applies to the pursuit.


----------



## cynic

Membership 
The Pope and Young Club is a membership based organization of dedicated bowhunters and conservationists. There are three levels of membership: Associate, Regular, and Senior. All new members must join the Club as an Associate. *The only requirement *to join as an Associate Member is to be a bowhunter and have pursued the challenge long enough to have harvested at least one adult North American big game animal with the bow and arrow (not necessarily of record class size).

Since so many like to use little catches in wording I thought this was especially nice but most of you have never looked at the bottom of the application, just the parts that suited your arguement


Credit Card Information 
Your Credit Card will be billed $35.00 once your application has been accepted. 
*Credit Card Type: Visa MasterCard 
*Card Number: 
*Expiration Month: 
*Expiration Year: 

The 35.00 is also a requirement and this is just for the associate entry level


----------



## Tim4Trout

thesource said:


> This may be very true. You are entitled to your opinion.
> 
> This is not. Please show some evidence to back this up. As it has already been pointed out, a majority of AT members hold P&Y in high regard, even if you do not.
> 
> In the absence of any evidence, I will have to categorize this as more sour grapes of those who resent P&Y because the ideals they espouse are not in line with yours.




According to guidestar ...

Pope and Young's mission is ....

"Recording and tabulating big game animals taken by bow and arrow in North America"

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/910/837/2005-910837552-01ef078d-9.pdf

According to P&Y's website --- _" To Qualify as an Associate Member in the Pope & Young Club you must have one species of North American big game taken with a Bow and Arrow. "_

Which means it is an exclusive entity.

According to P&Y's website's membership application _"Your Credit Card will be billed $35.00 once your application has been accepted.'_

Also according to "Guidestar" P&Y received $229,231.00 in membership fees in 2005 ( I do not know why the number does not end in 5 or 0 based upon a $35 fee )

If you divide 229,231 by 35 you get appx 6,550

Thus not withstanding other types of membership ( i.e. senior, life, etc. ) P&Y represents 6,550 people.

Archery talk.com has appx. 41,000 members ( number of member pages times 30 per page )

Thus 16% of archery talk members at most can be members of P&Y

I do not have figures at this time for the total number of bowhunters in the U.S.

Assuming however that bowhunters were to represent 25% of all hunters you would have 3 1/4 million bowhunters.

Doing the math it would mean that P&Y members represent .021% of all bowhunters.


Simply because a poll of " Do you like P&Y -- Y / N " may receive more yes votes than no votes, it represents only the opinions of the participants and not necessarily the views of the overall AT membership


----------



## cynic

The off $ amounts could result from the sales of there book that has all the records in it ..So it could very easily be a much smaller number of members depending on the price of the book..


----------



## KOhunter

It's all about money and ego for any of these eletist organizations. I'm not saying they're bad, but recognize them for what they are. If you are a true hunter it is more about being in the great outdoors and putting meat in the freezer, not about who spent how much for what guide and how far they had to travel to do it. The native americans had a pretty good idea of managing wildlife, even without all of todays science. Even once they aquired firearms, they weren't the ones that went out and decimated much of the wildlife in the early 1900's. I do have one question...if xbows are so much better, why isn't there much history of native americans using them. I would think that if xbows are so unfair and sooooooooooo much better than vbows... vbows would have gone the way of spears along time ago. The way some of you carry on, the indians would have wiped out the white man if they had xbows! :wink:


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> I agree it is about sportsmanship and conservation.
> 
> But I stridently disagree when you misrepresent by stating "Nowhere in the definition of "FC", B&C or P&Y, is there any mention of "fairness" of one piece of equipment to the other."
> 
> There are numerous equipment rules in the definition of fair chase:
> 
> _
> Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
> From any power vehicle or power boat.
> By "jacklighting" or shining at night.
> By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
> While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
> By the use of any power vehicles or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
> By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating, or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
> Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.
> 
> SPECIAL NOTE: For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club's Records Program, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A let-off exceeding sixty-five (65) percent, using the A.M.O. standard method of measurement, will be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. For further information, please click here for the "Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow and Broadhead"_
> 
> Clearly, equipment plays a significant role in the rules of fair chase.
> 
> You conveniently overlook this, actually misrepresent it, to try and justify a place in bowhunting fair chase for your crossthing.
> 
> It doesn't make the grade.


All of the equipment specifications can be directly related to the advantage they give over the ANIMAL not the advantage they give one piece of equipment over another.


----------



## Free Range

PMantle, I totally agree, we may be looking at the same thing from opposite sides. If you take the phrase Fair Chase, as a stand alone concept, then yes you could absolutely use fair chase methods out of season, or use a gun to hunt free ranging animals during bow season. All of which would be considered “fair chase”. 

But fair chase, to me, is intertwined with hunting and each separate season. And our idea of fair chase differs from one season to another, from one weapon to another even from one animal to another. 

Let me try to explain, for example, in quail hunting, fair chase might include using a dog, so you don’t lose many fallen birds, but using a dog in most states is not considered fair chase, for deer hunting. Using a gun that can hold more then one round and be fired quickly, one shot after the other, is considered standard practice, and ok under fair chase rules. But is against all rules of fair chase when talking about bows. Shooting at a deer in it’s bed is good, a covey of quail while huddled up in a covey, bad. Just as hunting out of season, while not strictly against fair chase, is intertwined with fair chase, as in, it is considered not appropriate. There are many reasons for not hunting out of season, some animals are more vulnerable at other times of the year.

Which brings us to use of weapon types during other times of the year other then their assigned season. To be technically correct, using a gun during archery season is no different then using one during gun season. You pull the trigger the same, you sight thru the scope the same, the animal has the same chance to escape, every thing is exactly the same. Except you are hunting during a time that has been reserved for bow hunters, the deer are not as pressured, and the competition with other hunters is not as high. Thus giving you an advantage over the other hunters, and giving you a better chance to “bag” a deer, which could be construed as a better advantage (unfair) over the deer too. 

This intertwining of all aspects of bowhunting, fair chase, legal requirements, and personal ethics. Is un-breakable, to consider one you must consider the other. Therefore to this way of thinking fair chase, is indeed weapon related, but not as a stand alone concept, you have to consider the whole bowhunting experience. 

I’m not going to say anybody is wrong here, because it can be separated down to it’s parts, and the weapon can certainly be taken out of the equation. Just as an engine is not a car, but can you really call it a car with out an engine?


----------



## Jim C

lets be honest

1) the anti crossbow zealots have no evidence that a crossbow is "less fair" than a modern compound bow

2) the ACZ's are driven by several motivating factors: these include greed, selfishness (ie not wanting more people in the woods) and in one poster's case, a pathological obsession with his own standing and self esteem. Fair chase has nothing to do with it

3) using fair chase is an attempt to create a pretextual facade to camoflauge the lack of facts supporting their claims and to hide what really motivates them

ITS ALL BS. BS and nothing more, Source and others want less people bowhunting, we want more

why the need to argue tangents when the debate is obvious


----------



## PMantle

Free Range said:


> Let me try to explain, for example, in quail hunting, fair chase might include using a dog, so you don’t lose many fallen birds, but using a dog in most states is not considered fair chase, for deer hunting.


This tells me right away that you and I simply have different concepts of "fair chase". The use of dogs with deer either is or isn't. Fair chase is not State specific. Legality may be, but not fair chase.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> lets be honest
> 
> 
> 
> 2) the ACZ's are driven by several motivating factors: these include greed, selfishness (ie not wanting more people in the woods) and in one poster's case, a pathological obsession with his own standing and self esteem. Fair chase has nothing to do with it


This is utter nonsense. I suppose it makes you feel better about your position, but it makes you look dishonest. Keep it up if you wish, but it will get you nowhere.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> This is utter nonsense. I suppose it makes you feel better about your position, but it makes you look dishonest. Keep it up if you wish, but it will get you nowhere.



its true, and I have been involved in this debate many many years longer than you have and after 30 years, I know what motivates the vast majority of the ACZ

no one with a brain can claim that xbows are unfair compared to compound bows


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> its true, and I have been involved in this debate many many years longer than you have and after 30 years, I know what motivates the vast majority of the ACZ
> 
> no one with a brain can claim that xbows are unfair compared to compound bows


I did not quote the unfair part. Length in the debate means squat. No one with a brain can claim that xbows are not easier to use than compounds. It's not about fairness.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> I did not quote the unfair part. Length in the debate means squat. No one with a brain can claim that xbows are not easier to use than compounds. It's not about fairness.


you are right-they are easier to use-they aren't easier to master and they aren't more efficient


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> you are right-they are easier to use-they aren't easier to master and they aren't more efficient



Once any flinger of an arrow reaches a a level of energy sufficient to obtain a pass through, efficiency is irrelevant. Mastering the weapon is also irrelevant. There is no test before a hunter is allowed to go afield. Any shmoe can take either one out during the season. Many choose not to take advantage of bow season. I suppose there are many reasons.


----------



## Bow1

*So why use it?*

If your able to use a actual bow (recurve or compound) why use an X-Bow? Yea its ok to me for them in Archery Season, if your disabled or can not pull back the minimum weight to harvest an animal. Dont care for them in Archery Season for any other reason, not cause its unfair over the animal because its in my opinion unfair for all the other bowhunters who are using the eqiuipment bow season was intended for.

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> If your able to use a actual bow (recurve or compound) why use an X-Bow? Yea its ok to me for them in Archery Season, if your disabled or can not pull back the minimum weight to harvest an animal. Dont care for them in Archery Season for any other reason, not cause its unfair over the animal because its in my opinion unfair for all the other bowhunters who are using the eqiuipment bow season was intended for.
> 
> Keith



weak-you are not competing against me or others-If you use a compound instsead of a trad bow the gap is huge. I am curious, how much experience do you have with corssbows

the seasons were "intended" for trad bows

once compounds were allowed in, that argument went down the drain


----------



## Bow1

*I don't have any experience with corssbows?*

However with crossbows, I have enough experience to know I would prefer they stay out of my archery season that goes for when I am using my recurve or compound, and yes I hunt with both. My brother because of a disability uses a crossbow. 

The argument is not down the drain, x-bow is not a compound and sure ain't a recurve. 

So I answered your questions, WEAK is right, of your comments, why don't you answer my question. I probably have a good assumption on many reasons, hey but that is you. 

I wonder how many times some of you guys that use a crossbow have beat your head against the wall telling yourself that a x-bow is the same as a compound or recurve? :wink: 

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> However with crossbows, I have enough experience to know I would prefer they stay out of my archery season that goes for when I am using my recurve or compound, and yes I hunt with both. My brother because of a disability uses a crossbow.
> 
> The argument is not down the drain, x-bow is not a compound and sure ain't a recurve.
> 
> So I answered your questions, WEAK is right, of your comments, why don't you answer my question. I probably have a good assumption on many reasons, hey but that is you.
> 
> I wonder how many times some of you guys that use a crossbow have beat your head against the wall telling yourself that a x-bow is the same as a compound or recurve? :wink:
> 
> Keith


lame-so you think you are competing against other bow hunters and its unfair to you if they use a crossbow

unless you made your bow by hand and chipped your own broadheads out of flint you have no grounds to complain. I know these bows are different but I know the following

1) it takes MONTHS to teach somene hunting level accuracy with a bare longbow

2) I can teach most people in a DAY to shoot a modern compound MORE accurately than the vast majority of trad shooters

3) it takes about an hour to do it with a crossbow

so the gap between the trad and the compound bow is immense, the gap between your compound bow and a crossbow is MINOR

4) the skills needed to successfully bowhunt encompass FAR more than merely shooting a bow accurately enough to hit a deer ethically at 30 yards and in-IF Shooting was the only skill, then my US #1 recurve cadet girl would be able to out deer hunt 99% of the bowhunters since I know she can outshoot 99% of them

Once again, you have to tell us how your hunting is HURT objectively by what type of bow another guy chooses to use


----------



## cynic

Traditional is the 10 yr old Native American Indian taking game with a self bow and string spun from horse hair or animal gut, a stick with sharpened rock and a bird feather..Lets see every one compete with that before we claim to be such great hunters with a bow.


----------



## Bow1

*Oh my bang head, bang head*

:rofl: :rofl:  :lalala: 

This is like talking to an ex wife.

Still no answers. :doh: 


Keith


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Traditional is the 10 yr old Native American Indian taking game with a self bow and string spun from horse hair or animal gut, a stick with sharpened rock and a bird feather..Lets see every one compete with that before we claim to be such great hunters with a bow.


 that would be primative not traditional.


----------



## Bow1

*Hey Marv your right*

Why didnt I think of that?

Keith


----------



## Marvin

Jim, Serious question.

Your a former shop owner and current advisor....Do you really think that the average person( not your Joad kids...they are way above this) is able to walk into the shop, buy a compound, have it setup, and then in an hour or so be capable of repetative hunting accuracy at 35 yards?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> that would be primative not traditional.


That would be dependant on the definition of primitive and traditional For the Native American Indian it was a Tradition. Traditionally signifying manhood. I also venture to say that even the traditional archery equipment hunters of today could not compete with them much less the compound users..So lets get the definition of fair chase and how xbows violate that


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> that would be primative not traditional.


an excalibur recurve crossbow is traditional just as a glass-carbon limbed 21st Century longbow is


----------



## Marvin

Bow1 said:


> Why didnt I think of that?
> 
> Keith


 they just randomly throw out words to try to make a point. They have little understanding of the definitions at times.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> an excalibur recurve crossbow is traditional just as a glass-carbon limbed 21st Century longbow is


We can debate that latter...it still has wood in it:tongue:


----------



## cynic

Jim C said:


> an excalibur recurve crossbow is traditional just as a glass-carbon limbed 21st Century longbow is


Great so lets just call it traditional and all hunt together


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> That would be dependant on the definition of primitive and traditional For the Native American Indian it was a Tradition. Traditionally signifying manhood. I also venture to say that even the traditional archery equipment hunters of today could not compete with them much less the compound users..So lets get the definition of fair chase and how xbows violate that


 we already have...Bowhunting ...P&Y Gunhunting highfenced canned hunts...B&C


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim, Serious question.
> 
> Your a former shop owner and current advisor....Do you really think that the average person( not your Joad kids...they are way above this) is able to walk into the shop, buy a compound, have it setup, and then in an hour or so be capable of repetative hunting accuracy at 35 yards?


35 yards-hard to say-but within an hour I can have them shooting more accurately at 35 yards than 90% of the barebow trads I have seen in my thirty years of archery

I don't think either group should shoot at deer at 35 yards.

an hour of serious practice-it takes at least a half hour to set the bow up
that is probably why xbows are so popular-they are FAR FAR easier to set up

I have seen lots of compound bows set up poorly, hard to set up a crossbow poorly

that's the real big advantage coupled with the fact that most hunters have training in shooting a weapon and they figure that transfers over to a crossbow

now judging yardage takes lots of time hence my comment about 35 yards

I can teach someone to hit a deer sized target (ethical kill zone) consistently at 35 yards

I sure can't teach them to judge 35 yards from 25 yards in an hour


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> We can debate that latter...it still has wood in it:tongue:



fair enough-my current excalibur target bow as well as my TNC target bows have wood stocks. NFAA says the wife's spigarelli aluminum riser job with the WINEX carbon foam limbs and the 100 dollar beiter button shooting X10 arrows is "traditional" so go figure. The only wood she has in her kit is the pencil she keeps score with :wink:


----------



## cynic

That would be correct for you and those like you and for those that you want to think like you, but for those of us that want a clearer definition it doesn't work. It is kinda like medicine, you have liquid,powder,tablet,caplet and capsule etc etc...but what is it really, Medicine. Guys you can call it what you like but it is still archery


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> 35 yards-hard to say-but within an hour I can have them shooting more accurately at 35 yards than 90% of the barebow trads I have seen in my thirty years of archery
> 
> I don't think either group should shoot at deer at 35 yards.
> 
> an hour of serious practice-it takes at least a half hour to set the bow up
> that is probably why xbows are so popular-they are FAR FAR easier to set up
> 
> I have seen lots of compound bows set up poorly, hard to set up a crossbow poorly
> 
> that's the real big advantage coupled with the fact that most hunters have training in shooting a weapon and they figure that transfers over to a crossbow
> 
> now judging yardage takes lots of time hence my comment about 35 yards
> 
> I can teach someone to hit a deer sized target (ethical kill zone) consistently at 35 yards
> 
> I sure can't teach them to judge 35 yards from 25 yards in an hour



The reason i asked is for two very important reasons, One hits close to home for you and I will list them below. 
1st
This past season, a friends 12 year old son starting deer hunting this year with a crossbow. within 15 minutes he could keep a bolt in the circles on his BLOCK target at 35 yards. Could he have done that with compound....absolutely not. It probably would have taken him 2 years minimum of very rigerous training to get to that point. 
This is where the crossbow makes the cut for me. It got the kid hunting and his dad could easily sit along with him as they hunted. No problem, thanks horton. 

2nd
You are probably more in depth with this situation. Archery shops. You noted how easy they are to set up. I agree..if you have an allen wrench and 10 minutes your at the bale. but that does not bode well for archery shops( don't think big think small mom and pop like most of them are) . That leaves them witha huge hole to fill and that means less exposure to what were calling archery. I have lost one close archery shop and may be losing another. the crossbow requires NO ARCHERY SKILLS to shoot. Fine but, that also dilutes hurts archery in general. Its hard enough to find a competent shop to work on your bow let alone find someone to teach the art and skill of archery. Thats not a good thing. Manning is the only person I know in a 50 mile radius that teaches archery...

Don't tell anyone but I shoot deer at 40 yards.....But i also practice like a mother....


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> That would be correct for you and those like you and for those that you want to think like you, but for those of us that want a clearer definition it doesn't work. It is kinda like medicine, you have liquid,powder,tablet,caplet and capsule etc etc...but what is it really, Medicine. Guys you can call it what you like but it is still archery


 I tell you what, You find me someone or something that has done more for archery than pope and young and we will get down to brass tacks. 

Clearer definition....REALLY? Your Lying now.:redface: You want a definitions that FITS your agenda. Thats obvious. Its actually funny you said clearer now that i think about it....


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> The reason i asked is for two very important reasons, One hits close to home for you and I will list them below.
> 1st
> This past season, a friends 12 year old son starting deer hunting this year with a crossbow. within 15 minutes he could keep a bolt in the circles on his BLOCK target at 35 yards. Could he have done that with compound....absolutely not. It probably would have taken him 2 years minimum of very rigerous training to get to that point.
> This is where the crossbow makes the cut for me. It got the kid hunting and his dad could easily sit along with him as they hunted. No problem, thanks horton.
> 
> 2nd
> You are probably more in depth with this situation. Archery shops. You noted how easy they are to set up. I agree..if you have an allen wrench and 10 minutes your at the bale. but that does not bode well for archery shops( don't think big think small mom and pop like most of them are) . That leaves them witha huge hole to fill and that means less exposure to what were calling archery. I have lost one close archery shop and may be losing another. the crossbow requires NO ARCHERY SKILLS to shoot. Fine but, that also dilutes hurts archery in general. Its hard enough to find a competent shop to work on your bow let alone find someone to teach the art and skill of archery. Thats not a good thing. Manning is the only person I know in a 50 mile radius that teaches archery...
> 
> Don't tell anyone but I shoot deer at 40 yards.....But i also practice like a mother....


all above is true. The issue is whether in a recreational activity like bowhunting is preventing something easier bad for society in general-in other words-is society better off by saying we have to preserve "archery skills" by forcing people to bowhunt with certain types of bows

1) once we went to the compound we pretty well wiped away most of the real essential archery skills and many oldtimers will tell you that once the compound allowed part time archers to bowhunt, archery was really hurt

2) we don't force people to learn how to ride horses-we let them take ATV's into hilly terrain to hunt-good or bad?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> all above is true. The issue is whether in a recreational activity like bowhunting is preventing something easier bad for society in general-in other words-is society better off by saying we have to preserve "archery skills" by forcing people to bowhunt with certain types of bows
> 
> 1) once we went to the compound we pretty well wiped away most of the real essential archery skills and many oldtimers will tell you that once the compound allowed part time archers to bowhunt, archery was really hurt
> 
> 2) we don't force people to learn how to ride horses-we let them take ATV's into hilly terrain to hunt-good or bad?


answering #1 
I agree the Achery skills probably took a blow when the compound was transformed from it original design. Surely not when it was introduced though you must admit. BUT moving toward a weapon the is totally devoid of any of the archery skills needed to shoot a bow is well....not archery.  

Answering #2
We are not killing anything with horses or 4 wheelers....at least leaglly. The means to which you arrive at the treestand are not relevant to the topic Jim.
Are we better off or worse off (as a society) with the crossbow?....Might be the next dead horse thread but i would entertain it. :wink: Kentucky saw it as a potential social problem and maybe that would be a better served topic for most of this. What do ya think? Should we take a break before we start up a new thread?


----------



## Jim C

recreational activities are just that

at one time, I used to load my own 35 MM film cartridges, and develop the pictures in a long gone dark room my brother and I built in the parental estate. Now, I have a digital camera and I can check the picture right after I shoot it. So I no longer maintain my skills in a dark room-i feed the disc into a computer. pictures are pictures

at one time, big game fishermen (like Hemingway) used rods that would break if you made even a slight mistake fighting big tuna. The linen line had to be aired out on drying racks after each fishing expedition. No longer but I don't hear anyone saying it hurt us to forget how to use easily breakable rods or how to dry line out.

at one time, all table tennis was played with a hard bat. that meant if the other guy hit hard or topspun the ball at you, you pretty much had to answer with a cut stroke or chop because its hard to reverse spin with hard rubber. Now when someone loops the ball, I loop it back because the modern bat with its grippy sponge surface makes reversing spin easy. some would say that hurt table tennis-but most disagree

at one time everyone made their own bows, strings and arrows. straightening wood arrows was a major skill. then along came Mr Easton and most people have no clue how to straighten wood arrows. then came mr Scott and Mr Allen and so forth

none of it really bothers me and I for the life of me can't see any difference between someone choosing a modern compound or a modern crossbow since the bottom line doesn't change


----------



## PMantle

Can we let this thread :rip: or at least get :focus: ? Will there be some form of fair chase legislation?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> recreational activities are just that
> 
> at one time, I used to load my own 35 MM film cartridges, and develop the pictures in a long gone dark room my brother and I built in the parental estate. Now, I have a digital camera and I can check the picture right after I shoot it. So I no longer maintain my skills in a dark room-i feed the disc into a computer. pictures are pictures
> 
> at one time, big game fishermen (like Hemingway) used rods that would break if you made even a slight mistake fighting big tuna. The linen line had to be aired out on drying racks after each fishing expedition. No longer but I don't hear anyone saying it hurt us to forget how to use easily breakable rods or how to dry line out.
> 
> at one time, all table tennis was played with a hard bat. that meant if the other guy hit hard or topspun the ball at you, you pretty much had to answer with a cut stroke or chop because its hard to reverse spin with hard rubber. Now when someone loops the ball, I loop it back because the modern bat with its grippy sponge surface makes reversing spin easy. some would say that hurt table tennis-but most disagree
> 
> at one time everyone made their own bows, strings and arrows. straightening wood arrows was a major skill. then along came Mr Easton and most people have no clue how to straighten wood arrows. then came mr Scott and Mr Allen and so forth
> 
> none of it really bothers me and I for the life of me can't see any difference between someone choosing a modern compound or a modern crossbow since the bottom line doesn't change


recreational activity
Well that begs the question, who would you expect the game departments to listen to? Some who is a fanatic about their support and will always buy hunting licenses or a guy who has nothing to do on a saturday afternoon and might or might not buy a tag dependant on what he has to do that saturday? Your Myopic view, while not totally incorrect or correct, is just that. Your view. the bottom line is the animal dies and that can happen with a claymore, audi, snare, gun or whatever. I am a bit taken back that a man with your talents and former shop owner is not more concerned about the overall archery (advancement of skills and all that stuff)picture than the appearance of your laid back stance.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Can we let this thread :rip: or at least get :focus: ? Will there be some form of fair chase legislation?


We already have fair chase legislation in many States. These are dictated by seasons, special seasons, what is lawful and what is not lawful. This includes shooting hours, minimum distance from roads and structures, etc., limits on broadhead blade size, specific ammunition requirements, etc.

For instance - under "fair chase" laws, you cannot hunt from the back of a 4-wheeler or snowmobile. You cannot lawfully even "drive deer" from the back of the 4-wheeler or snowmobile. It is unlawful to shoot a deer that is swimming in a lake or pond, you cannot trap deer, or run deer with dogs in many states. Baiting is another issue that some states define as unlawful, not fair chase, yet, other states see no issue with baiting deer, or even using dogs during specific seasons.

I am curious to understand exactly how a crossbow, in any season, firearm, early archery, or extended is not fair chase? A repeating crossbow, ok, granted, but how many of those are in the woods? I don't see too many Van Helsing models out there in the stores.

So, the question has yet to be addressed, how is a crossbow not fair chase?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> recreational activity
> Well that begs the question, who would you expect the game departments to listen to? Some who is a fanatic about their support and will always buy hunting licenses or a guy who has nothing to do on a saturday afternoon and might or might not buy a tag dependant on what he has to do that saturday? Your Myopic view, while not totally incorrect or correct, is just that. Your view. the bottom line is the animal dies and that can happen with a claymore, audi, snare, gun or whatever. I am a bit taken back that a man with your talents and former shop owner is not more concerned about the overall archery (advancement of skills and all that stuff)picture than the appearance of your laid back stance.



I am a coach, not a preacher Marvin. its a sport to me, not a religion. I don't believe that I have the right to tell someone else what kind of bow they use.

sure,on some levels I wish compounds never would have come along. I wish things were like they were years ago where a guy in the PAA could make as much winning a couple tournaments as he could working 4 months as a master union electrician and there were three pro shops with top flight ranges within 20 minutes of my house. Back in those days, many ranges had AUTOMATIC target returns. Back then, archery was a year round activity-people didn't hang their bear polars up for 9 months 

the fact is is that bowhunting isn't where we are getting olympic talent-the olympians we have (as opposed to the foam bunny bangers) all started out as target shooters-Pace McKinney, Johnson, Huish. Magera might be the only one I know of who was a hunter before he was a target archer. what hunters use isn't the reason why we aren't dominating archery like we used to


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> an excalibur recurve crossbow is traditional just as a glass-carbon limbed 21st Century longbow is


LOL

Especially with that Red Dot Siight on it - Derrrrrrrr


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> The issue is whether in a recreational activity like bowhunting is preventing something easier bad for society in general-in other words-is society better off by saying we have to preserve "archery skills" by forcing people to bowhunt with certain types of bows


That is NOT the issue.

The question is not "is society better off...."

The question is "Is BOWHUNTING better off ...."

We are protecting bowhunting here, dude. Get a clue.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I am a coach, not a preacher Marvin. its a sport to me, not a religion. I don't believe that I have the right to tell someone else what kind of bow they use.
> 
> sure,on some levels I wish compounds never would have come along. I wish things were like they were years ago where a guy in the PAA could make as much winning a couple tournaments as he could working 4 months as a master union electrician and there were three pro shops with top flight ranges within 20 minutes of my house. Back in those days, many ranges had AUTOMATIC target returns. Back then, archery was a year round activity-people didn't hang their bear polars up for 9 months
> 
> the fact is is that bowhunting isn't where we are getting olympic talent-the olympians we have (as opposed to the foam bunny bangers) all started out as target shooters-Pace McKinney, Johnson, Huish. Magera might be the only one I know of who was a hunter before he was a target archer. what hunters use isn't the reason why we aren't dominating archery like we used to



Man that would be nice...automatic target returns. 

Olympic archers are a different breed. You have said one several occassions that 90 or so percent of compound archers use seriously flawed form. Does that bother you as a coach AND ARCHERY ENTHUSIEST?? The underlying statement you made is that the art or form of archery is highly eroded ( if not mostly gone due to what i would have to guess would be the compound or the mechanical release). I am just a lonely foam plugger myself but I try to work on it every day. I am essentially self taught except for those on AT that helped me. I want to see people grow as archers not just pacified by an easy weapon that does not require one ounce of archery skill.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> So, the question has yet to be addressed, how is a crossbow not fair chase?


There is no adequate response, which is why this thread should die.


----------



## Free Range

> I am curious to understand exactly how a crossbow, in any season, firearm, early archery, or extended is not fair chase? A repeating crossbow, ok, granted, but how many of those are in the woods? I don't see too many Van Helsing models out there in the stores.


I thought I gave a pretty good explanation, as to how this is. It boils down to how you define fair chase and how you look at hunting in total. 

And why would Van Helsings x-bow not be fair chase, if a repeating rifle is, why wouldn’t a repeating x-bow?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That is NOT the issue.
> 
> The question is not "is society better off...."
> 
> The question is "Is BOWHUNTING better off ...."
> 
> We are protecting bowhunting here, dude. Get a clue.


stuff it source-society makes the laws not "bowhunting"

your definition of bowhunting is bigoted and makes no sense. I tire of your nonsense. bowhunting isn't any worse off with one form of bow than the other as long as the animals to be hunted aren't being decimated

your view is based on an OCD and a self esteem issue. You somehow think your status diminishes if your vision of purity isn't followed by others

you have no rational argument


----------



## Bow1

*Way to go da pimp*

I like it. :thumbs_up :RockOn: So fast to get off of track are some of these people that favor the crossbow, and sure dont answer simple questions.

I would like to say that I believe crossbows are a weapon that can be used and is fairchase. I dont believe they have any place in a archery season. 
Nor does anything killed with one belong in P&Y. 

Keith


----------



## thesource

JimC,

"Stuff it" seems harsh....

"My" definition of a bow is also the same definition used by THE P&Y club, the NABC, pretty much every state bowhunting organization, the state of KY, and even YOUR homestate of Ohio.

YOU are the odd man out.

Get a grip, dude .... accept reality.


----------



## thesource

Bow1 said:


> I would like to say that I believe crossbows are a weapon that can be used and is fairchase. I dont believe they have any place in a archery season.
> Nor does anything killed with one belong in P&Y.
> 
> Keith


I absolutely agree with these sentiments.:darkbeer:


----------



## Bow1

*Hey someone agrees with me*

Thats not fair, anyhow I agree with your sentiments as well.

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Man that would be nice...automatic target returns.
> 
> Olympic archers are a different breed. You have said one several occassions that 90 or so percent of compound archers use seriously flawed form. Does that bother you as a coach AND ARCHERY ENTHUSIEST?? The underlying statement you made is that the art or form of archery is highly eroded ( if not mostly gone due to what i would have to guess would be the compound or the mechanical release). I am just a lonely foam plugger myself but I try to work on it every day. I am essentially self taught except for those on AT that helped me. I want to see people grow as archers not just pacified by an easy weapon that does not require one ounce of archery skill.


the guys that win have good form now-that is why you see Chance and Hopkins winning major spot shoots. recurve requires more allegiance to form because it requires more physical skills. the mental strength of top compound archers is as solid as any olympian

once again-95% of the people who buy bows have no interest in formal target competition-be it compounds or crossbows. 95% of people who buy shotguns care nothing about being a AAA skeet shooter or a 27 yard trapshooter either. our target success has very little to do with what bowhunters do.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> JimC,
> 
> "Stuff it" seems harsh....
> 
> "My" definition of a bow is also the same definition used by THE P&Y club, the NABC, pretty much every state bowhunting organization, the state of KY, and even YOUR homestate of Ohio.
> 
> YOU are the odd man out.
> 
> Get a grip, dude .... accept reality.


lets see, you have groups that are essentially designed for the selfish benefits of their members and I have groups that promote all forms of archery

you have Pope and Young-I have the ATA
you have state organizations that were dominated by excluders-I have the IBO
you have organizations that have ten people-I have the NGB for archery-the NAA and the NFAA

you have groups that were started just to keep crossbow hunters out of "their woods"-I have organizations that promote archery

looks like you are allied with greed and bigotry


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> the guys that win have good form now-that is why you see Chance and Hopkins winning major spot shoots. recurve requires more allegiance to form because it requires more physical skills. the mental strength of top compound archers is as solid as any olympian
> 
> once again-95% of the people who buy bows have no interest in formal target competition-be it compounds or crossbows. 95% of people who buy shotguns care nothing about being a AAA skeet shooter or a 27 yard trapshooter either. our target success has very little to do with what bowhunters do.


i agree whole heartedly with this BUT I still don't want to see them succome to an improper way of doing things. Maybe better form leads to lower wounding rates? too many variables i agree but it is possible. Why make an already bad situation worse? We all lose in the end it seems regardless fo the rules in place eh?


----------



## cynic

Hi Marvin "lying" is such a hard word to use when some one asks for a clearer definition. You seem so content with accusing and refering to an organization that means little more to you than supportive arguement for restricting hunters right to use a xbow..Most of you that are so quick to rally to the support of P&Y and its ideas don't care enough to contribute nor support them financially. Until you can prove your personal membership to the organization you so dearly devote your sport too you need not look to them to rally around your blabbering nor should you just pick them because it best suits you arguement...P&Y is a private organization that means very little to much of the BOWHUNTING populus since they will probably never hunt in a region that developes deer to qualify to be in there book..Let P&Y B&C and the rest dictate what it takes for entry into there private club not those of us that could care less of what they or the ones that support them and there idealogy. There will always be cults and followers


----------



## Free Range

Now it’s cults again, I was wondering how long it would take for the “C” word to be used. 
Hey what happened to Ace, is must be out, not, shooting a x-bow somewhere.


----------



## cynic

Free Range said:


> Now it’s cults again, I was wondering how long it would take for the “C” word to be used.
> Hey what happened to Ace, is must be out, not, shooting a x-bow somewhere.


I'm sorry for using the "C" word but that is the only other thing that I could compare so many brainwashed one sided single minded people too..


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> That is NOT the issue.
> 
> The question is not "is society better off...."
> 
> The question is "Is BOWHUNTING better off ...."
> 
> We are protecting bowhunting here, dude. Get a clue.


The question is, "How is a crossbow not "Fair Chase?" If P&Y truly felt that crossbows violated "FC" it would be included in their list of restrictions and not added a note at the end with the intro about record book entry. The best you can do is, "Cause we don't think it should be included during bowseason." You can not show anything about a crossbow that is unfair to the animal, so you (collectively) claim that it is unfair to the bow. You and yours are manipulating the original intent of "Fair Chase" to further your political agenda. "FC" is and should be out of bounds in this debate.

The real truth which you (collectively) have been skirting through this entire thread is stated above. You/P&Y are opposed to crossbows not because they violate "FC" but because crossbows "represent the biggest threat to bowhunting." "FC" has just become the most convenient method for you to attack crossbows and paint their users as "cheaters" in the eyes of the non hunting public. 

In the other thread I asked what was meant by "The best interest of bowhunting". None of you would even attempt an explanation. Although I knew exactly what you meant, I knew none of you would answer.

The question now is what exactly are you protecting bowhunting from? What is this threat to bowhunting that crossbows pose? 

(Even though this deserves a thread of its own, I'll bring it up here. I'll PM doctari to see if he feels we have enough crossbow threads here already. It is related to the hunting rights of crossbow hunters and the methods used by those attacking them)


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> lets see, you have groups that are essentially designed for the selfish benefits of their members and I have groups that promote all forms of archery
> 
> you have Pope and Young-I have the ATA
> you have state organizations that were dominated by excluders-I have the IBO
> you have organizations that have ten people-I have the NGB for archery-the NAA and the NFAA
> 
> you have groups that were started just to keep crossbow hunters out of "their woods"-I have organizations that promote archery
> 
> looks like you are allied with greed and bigotry



LOL...what a joke.

ATA - Archery *TRADE *Association - self explanatory

IBO - bowhunter is in the title, but its really a target shooting organization.

NAA and NFAA - target archery

You certainly have spine to even SUGGEST that these organizations matter in the slightest to bowhunting. They are pitiful in comparison to the BOWHUNTING organizations I have listed (led by the esteemed P&Y Club) for the influence they have in the bowhunting arena.

You can keep ALL of your ARCHERY organizations. There opinion means absolutely nothing in a discussion about fair chase, or bowhunting period.

You have got to be joking - that was pathetic.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> The question is, "How is a crossbow not "Fair Chase?" If P&Y truly felt that crossbows violated "FC" it would be included in their list of restrictions and not added a note at the end with the intro about record book entry. The best you can do is, "Cause we don't think it should be included during bowseason."


Fibbing again, Twogun?:lie: 

I have already explained that since the stringgun does not qualify as a hunting bow, you are not even eligible to attempt to meet the rules of fair chase - you are already excluded.

Crossbows are not fair chase during bowseasons. Its the main reason why bowhunters get so upset at the idea of adding them.

You may not like it, but it is a fact.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL...what a joke.
> 
> ATA - Archery *TRADE *Association - self explanatory
> 
> IBO - bowhunter is in the title, but its really a target shooting organization.
> 
> NAA and NFAA - target archery
> 
> You certainly have spine to even SUGGEST that these organizations matter in the slightest to bowhunting. They are pitiful in comparison to the BOWHUNTING organizations I have listed (led by the esteemed P&Y Club) for the influence they have in the bowhunting arena.
> 
> You can keep ALL of your ARCHERY organizations. There opinion means absolutely nothing in a discussion about fair chase, or bowhunting period.
> 
> You have got to be joking - that was pathetic.


Pathetic-let me define PATHETIC

pathetic is someone who worries 24/7 what other people use in bow season

pathetic is hiding greed and selfishness behind noble sounding terms like fair chase

pathetic is thinking that groups created to keep the members of that group free from "competition" are somehow going to be honest

pathetic is trying to impose one's views on other people and not having the courage to explain what really causes that actions

pathetic is rejecting the views of groups that promote all kinds of archery in favor of selfish promoters of division

pathetic is someone whose only contributions to this board are limited to denigrating and bashing other fellow archers


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Fibbing again, Twogun?:lie:
> 
> I have already explained that since the stringgun does not qualify as a hunting bow, you are not even eligible to attempt to meet the rules of fair chase - you are already excluded.
> 
> Crossbows are not fair chase during bowseasons. Its the main reason why bowhunters get so upset at the idea of adding them.
> 
> You may not like it, but it is a fact.



and truly pathetic is calling a crossbow a "string gun"


----------



## twogun

> I have already explained that since the stringgun does not qualify as a hunting bow, you are not even eligible to attempt to meet the rules of fair chase - you are already excluded.


In Ohio, Arkansas, Wyoming, Georgia, Alabamma, Tennessee, and Kentucky, crossbows are considered hunting bows. I'm in, in the woods with my bow, hunting year after year after year and having a blast doing it. I'm a "Fair Chase" hunter and proud of it.

You may not like it, but it's fact.

You have argued in the past about "the original intent of archery seasons" suggesting that it should be honored. Yet, you blatantly ignore and manipulate the *original intent* of "Fair Chase" to bash other hunters and further your cause. Why the hypocrisy?



> The Boone and Crockett Club is a non-profit organization founded in 1887 by Theodore Roosevelt. His vision was to establish a coalition of dedicated conservationists and sportsmen who would provide the leadership needed to address the issues that affect hunting, wildlife and wild habitat.
> 
> The Boone and Crockett Club’s Fair Chase statement was the first document outlining a code of conduct and ethics for sportsmen, which later became the cornerstone of the game laws we have today.



Pope and Young comes along 74 years later.



> The Pope and Young Club is one of North America's leading bowhunting and conservation organizations. Founded in 1961 as a nonprofit scientific organization, *the Club is patterned after the prestigious Boone and Crockett Club. *The Club advocates and encourages responsible bowhunting by promoting quality, fair chase hunting, and sound conservation practices.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> In Ohio, Arkansas, Wyoming, Georgia, Alabamma, Tennessee, and Kentucky, crossbows are considered hunting bows. I'm in, in the woods with my bow, hunting year after year after year and having a blast doing it. I'm a "Fair Chase" hunter and proud of it.
> 
> You may not like it, but it's fact.


And Fibbing yet again, Twogun.

I don't know about the others, but I do know for a fact that your State of Ohio has separate definition of bow and crossbow. KY does not include crossbow in the definition of archery equipment. 

It is obvious they allow the inclusion of crossbows, but that does not mean they consider them to be hunting bows. Quite obviously, by definition, they do not consider them to be bows at all.

Neither do I - and that's why they can never be fair chase during a hunting season.

Again - sorry it doesn't line up with your personal agenda. That doesn't make it wrong.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> and truly pathetic is calling a crossbow a "string gun"


ROFLMAO.

I didn't coin the term. Bill Troubridge, co-owner of Excalibur crossbows called it that. Ha ha ha.


But I think its quite fitting. "String" pretty much sums up the archery component of a crossbow while "gun" forces consideration of the many gunlike features - stock, scope, trigger, safety.

I think it fits perfectly.


----------



## Bow1

*Let me define Pathetic*

Pathetic is someone who thinks an x-bow has and place in a ARCHERY SEASON or even to think that if they where to kill a trophy with their x-bow that it could be entered into P&Y. That is pathetic. 

Talk about someone trying to bring their own ignorant views onto to others, well my friend that is you for sure, there are way more people that shoot a bow that is hand drawn, not cocked and loaded on here than the other. Pathetic to think that I or anyone else that shoots a bow thinks we are greedy or selfish, stop trying to ram "Crossbows are archery, they are a real challenge just like any other bow and arrow" down out throats. Get on here and spew all kinds of stupid analogy's trying to justify the demented mind of anyone thinking that a x-bow is the same as any other bow and arrow. BS. 

Pathetic is how questions I ask, like why would any grown man that can pull a bow back, and is not disabled want to use a crossbow? Hmm all I get back is a changed subject any something else talking about cars and engines or skeet shooting. X-Bows got no place in any archery season or archery record books. *I believe they are fair chase, nothing wrong in my opinion for anyone to use one, just keep it out of archery season. * 

If its legal for archery in a state that has approved it. I wont be holding a sign petitioning to get it changed. I ain't gonna cry, If I ever had a chance to vote for it to be allowed in archery season, hell no is what I would vote. That is my opinion. 

Keep bashing your head against the wall trying to make yourself believe that it is just like any other bow and arrow, as your doing pretty good, I truly believe that you have accomplished that.


----------



## Marvin

*Thanks again twogun*

The Boone and Crockett Club’s Fair Chase statement was the first document outlining a code of conduct and ethics for *sportsmen*, which later became the cornerstone of the game laws we have today.

P&Y
The Club advocates and encourages responsible *bowhunting* by promoting quality, fair chase hunting, and sound conservation practices.

Pretty black and white. But thanks for helping put again. I am not a bowhunter when I am slug hunting. pretty obvious.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Hi Marvin "lying" is such a hard word to use when some one asks for a clearer definition. You seem so content with accusing and refering to an organization that means little more to you than supportive arguement for restricting hunters right to use a xbow..Most of you that are so quick to rally to the support of P&Y and its ideas don't care enough to contribute nor support them financially. Until you can prove your personal membership to the organization you so dearly devote your sport too you need not look to them to rally around your blabbering nor should you just pick them because it best suits you arguement...P&Y is a private organization that means very little to much of the BOWHUNTING populus since they will probably never hunt in a region that developes deer to qualify to be in there book..Let P&Y B&C and the rest dictate what it takes for entry into there private club not those of us that could care less of what they or the ones that support them and there idealogy. There will always be cults and followers


 I am not here to give you anykind of a "cyberhug". it is obvious that you don't like it and you are looking for a way to pacify your feelings by looking for another group to accept you and your inadequacies instead of following the rules already established .


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> Pathetic is someone who thinks an x-bow has and place in a ARCHERY SEASON or even to think that if they where to kill a trophy with their x-bow that it could be entered into P&Y. That is pathetic.


No one in the crossbow community is saying that-what we have problems with is a private elitist club that LIES about xbow archers and LIES about their ethics and ACTIVELY SEEKS TO BAN our sport. The glorification of trophy hunting is not particularly helpful to those of us who are fighting PETA and its ilk on a daily basis either. Read a bit more

BTW it is part of archery and crossbows have been accepted in the NAA-(an organization that is more than a hundred years older than the bigoted P&Y) long before Mr Allen's "arrow launching device". That certain people with ego issues claim xbows aren't archery means nothing and is only a reflection on their own pathetic inability to argue facts



Bow1 said:


> Talk about someone trying to bring their own ignorant views onto to others, well my friend that is you for sure, there are way more people that shoot a bow that is hand drawn, not cocked and loaded on here than the other. Pathetic to think that I or anyone else that shoots a bow thinks we are greedy or selfish, stop trying to ram "Crossbows are archery, they are a real challenge just like any other bow and arrow" down out throats. Get on here and spew all kinds of stupid analogy's trying to justify the demented mind of anyone thinking that a x-bow is the same as any other bow and arrow. BS.


More of the ego thing again-the real challenge-sorry nimrod, when we allowed in 80% letoff and mechanical releases your chest thumping argument went down the toilet. CAN YOU ANSWER HOW YOUR HUNTING EXPERIENCE is affected by what another bow hunter uses? WE ARE WAITING-none of the rest of your crowd has really bothered other than FR saying he doesn't want anyone else in his woods



P


Bow1 said:


> athetic is how questions I ask, like why would any grown man that can pull a bow back, and is not disabled want to use a crossbow? Hmm all I get back is a changed subject any something else talking about cars and engines or skeet shooting. X-Bows got no place in any archery season or archery record books. *I believe they are fair chase, nothing wrong in my opinion for anyone to use one, just keep it out of archery season. *
> 
> If its legal for archery in a state that has approved it. I wont be holding a sign petitioning to get it changed. I ain't gonna cry, If I ever had a chance to vote for it to be allowed in archery season, hell no is what I would vote. That is my opinion.
> 
> Keep bashing your head against the wall trying to make yourself believe that it is just like any other bow and arrow, as your doing pretty good, I truly believe that you have accomplished that.


we are winning and you are losing- I shoot a 44 pound recurve 25000 times a year and that with all sorts of injuries. why does a big strong stud like you have to use LETOFF? ONCE AGAIN, tell me how YOU are affected by what sort of bow another hunter uses


----------



## cynic

That's right Bow1 how dare someone think that the group that took over traditional archery through petition, debates, whining etc should be construde as arrogant,greedy or selfish just because they did it to be included not in their own season, but in all of the seasons. How dare them say that it is archery just because it has a BOW a STRING and shoots a Projectile with a shaft, fletching and broadhead but does not fit P&Y. If P&Y a private organization for members only doesn't approve of their use for there club then the rest of the world should not approve. I see your point, but the one group that has every taxpayers attention at least once a year, IRS does along with several other govt. organizations. Oh that's right P&Y is non-profit, tax exempt and is above the IRS and the others so there definition is better. We'll use that one since it is better for our arguement. Who are they to compare a xbow to any other bow, wait they didn't just the compound, never mind that..With all this now I have to ask, why are compounds allowed in all of archery season since it clearly has a greater advantage over traditional equipment than a xbow has over a compound. Why is it that the compound users didn't end up with a seperate season? Could it be that Fred Bear and Ben Pearson which were the leaders in the production of compounds and they sat on the board of P&Y and it was in the best interest of only P&Y for the inclusion..Seems to me P&Y showed little concern as to what the acceptance of the compound and forward progress would do to the Traditional bowhunting community but at the conception they had no idea what progresses would be made. Did Fred Bear and Ben Pearson think that bows would shoot carbon fiber arrows 300 + fps with 80 % let-off and still be considered in the traditional archery season and allowed in the scrolls of P&Y? I doubt it. So it all got lumped together as archery. So lets divide archery into the three types Traditional, compound and xbow each having it *own* time during the archery season. Just as a ML is a firearm it is seperate from general firearm season


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> And Fibbing yet again, Twogun.
> 
> I don't know about the others, but I do know for a fact that your State of Ohio has separate definition of bow and crossbow. KY does not include crossbow in the definition of archery equipment.
> 
> It is obvious they allow the inclusion of crossbows, but that does not mean they consider them to be hunting bows. Quite obviously, by definition, they do not consider them to be bows at all.
> 
> Neither do I - and that's why they can never be fair chase during a hunting season.
> 
> Again - sorry it doesn't line up with your personal agenda. That doesn't make it wrong.


You piss and moan about semantics but manipulate it to suit you and acuse someone else of lying, typical of your tactics.


According to your "reasoning", hunting with anything other than what fits into "your" definition of a hunting bow during bow season is not "Fair Chase". We'll use Ohio as an example. In Ohio bow season opens next year at the end of September and continues through the beginning of February. It runs the entire length of almost all of the hunting seasons. Following your line of "thought", hunting with a shotgun in Ohio is not "FC" because shotgun season runs during bow season. The same is true of ML season and the youth shotgun season. Ohio has added an additional weekend to its gun season for next year. And yep, that weekend is during bow season also. If you apply your "logic" consistently, nothing but bow hunting is "FC" in Ohio or any other state that has a similar season set up.


----------



## Bow1

*Again, smoke and more smoke*



> No one in the crossbow community is saying that-what we have problems with is a private elitist club that LIES about xbow archers and LIES about their ethics and ACTIVELY SEEKS TO BAN our sport. The glorification of trophy hunting is not particularly helpful to those of us who are fighting PETA and its ilk on a daily basis either. Read a bit more


Well ace attempts to compare it here and even eludes to the fact that it is more difficult to harvest and animal with a x-bow.



> HERE is the problem, even if drawn, the crossbow(bigger and more bulky.....i.e. larger frontal area) had to be raised for the shot........AND that LOUD safety must be released.............NOW compare and be honest......if only with yourself.......
> 
> BTW I use an old PSE HIGH draw weight, and more than the old P&Y letoff, with ONE sight, (non fiber optic)....and hunt 100% from the ground(and that is exactly how I took the <6 FEET MATURE whitetail just last year.......(I've taken more than several btw this way, at various ranges, so I'm NOT speaking as someone who's guessing......fwiw)
> 
> That being said, YOU honestly think it's THAT much easier, to raise an 8 lb crossbow, AND get that LOUD safety off, compared to a compound??? Compared to a 85% or better let-off compound..........in reality????????


Ace it at it again 



> even though there isn't enough difference in a crossbow and a compound


Jim is trying to here


> no fact is available to demonstrate that a crossbow should be treated differently than a compound


This is translated into there is no difference, don't Deny it, some more head banging. Here is a fact a compound is hand drawn just before the shot, motion has to happen before the shot can take place. Now x-bow no motion its already drawn and cocked, oh I guess since it weighs 8 pounds it is a challenge to raise it up to shoot. Or you could easily brace it if you must, or just rest your elbows on you legs, hmm thats pretty easy. 

Oh I love this comparison to traditional good one Jim, shows your mind is not really in the right place.



> an excalibur recurve crossbow is traditional just as a glass-carbon limbed 21st Century longbow is


I love this one, so I guess all of us that do use compounds have no archery skills what so ever, huh Jim? And compounds really hurt archery huh. Lame



> once we went to the compound we pretty well wiped away most of the real essential archery skills and many oldtimers will tell you that once the compound allowed part time archers to bowhunt, archery was really hurt


Here are some of the diversions, comparing crap



> recreational activities are just that
> 
> at one time, I used to load my own 35 MM film cartridges, and develop the pictures in a long gone dark room my brother and I built in the parental estate. Now, I have a digital camera and I can check the picture right after I shoot it. So I no longer maintain my skills in a dark room-i feed the disc into a computer. pictures are pictures
> 
> at one time, big game fishermen (like Hemingway) used rods that would break if you made even a slight mistake fighting big tuna. The linen line had to be aired out on drying racks after each fishing expedition. No longer but I don't hear anyone saying it hurt us to forget how to use easily breakable rods or how to dry line out.
> 
> at one time, all table tennis was played with a hard bat. that meant if the other guy hit hard or topspun the ball at you, you pretty much had to answer with a cut stroke or chop because its hard to reverse spin with hard rubber. Now when someone loops the ball, I loop it back because the modern bat with its grippy sponge surface makes reversing spin easy. some would say that hurt table tennis-but most disagree
> 
> at one time everyone made their own bows, strings and arrows. straightening wood arrows was a major skill. then along came Mr Easton and most people have no clue how to straighten wood arrows. then came mr Scott and Mr Allen and so forth
> 
> none of it really bothers me and I for the life of me can't see any difference between someone choosing a modern compound or a modern crossbow since the bottom line doesn't change


Well Source does have an argument, cross bows got no place in an archery season, your bigoted as you want to take a cross bow out and hunt while others who practice and take the time to learn how to use a compound or recurve and are out hunting and you come in with a clear advantage over those guys. I am not against bow-hunting, as you have said I am against crossbow hunters hunting during archery season. I would love to see thousands more bow-hunters using bow and arrow come into the woods. And just for you, I don't feel any pressure from anyone when it comes to hunting or shooting. Thats from any x-bow or bow and arrow shooter. I do my own thing. My opinion is they can hunt in some other season, and if you don't like it go pick up a bow and arrow. 



> stuff it source-society makes the laws not "bowhunting"
> 
> your definition of bowhunting is bigoted and makes no sense. I tire of your nonsense. bowhunting isn't any worse off with one form of bow than the other as long as the animals to be hunted aren't being decimated
> 
> your view is based on an OCD and a self esteem issue. You somehow think your status diminishes if your vision of purity isn't followed by others
> 
> you have no rational argument
> __________________


Right on source



> JimC,
> 
> "Stuff it" seems harsh....
> 
> "My" definition of a bow is also the same definition used by THE P&Y club, the NABC, pretty much every state bowhunting organization, the state of KY, and even YOUR homestate of Ohio.
> 
> YOU are the odd man out.
> 
> Get a grip, dude .... accept reality.


And to think we are selfish, is nuts, we invite all bowhunters to come and bow-hunt, its been this way for years, you are the ones trying to change. I don't care about 80% let off it still has to be drawn. Another thing that is right our members, who are bow-hunters we are selfish, yep. I am aligned greed and bigotry. Yep none of this would be a problem if you people would not stop trying to bring in x-bows into archery season, and stop trying to say they are the same. They are not. 



> lets see, you have groups that are essentially designed for the selfish benefits of their members and I have groups that promote all forms of archery
> 
> you have Pope and Young-I have the ATA
> you have state organizations that were dominated by excluders-I have the IBO
> you have organizations that have ten people-I have the NGB for archery-the NAA and the NFAA
> 
> you have groups that were started just to keep crossbow hunters out of "their woods"-I have organizations that promote archery
> 
> looks like you are allied with greed and bigotry


Here we see P&Y and myself are bigoted. No its a club for animals harvested with BOW AND ARROW, hand drawn, you know. Stop being pissed that your x-bow is not part of it. And I would watch with the name calling :wink: 



> No one in the crossbow community is saying that-what we have problems with is a private elitist club that LIES about xbow archers and LIES about their ethics and ACTIVELY SEEKS TO BAN our sport. The glorification of trophy hunting is not particularly helpful to those of us who are fighting PETA and its ilk on a daily basis either. Read a bit more
> 
> BTW it is part of archery and crossbows have been accepted in the NAA-(an organization that is more than a hundred years older than the bigoted P&Y) long before Mr Allen's "arrow launching device". That certain people with ego issues claim xbows aren't archery means nothing and is only a reflection on their own pathetic inability to argue facts





> More of the ego thing again-the real challenge-sorry nimrod, when we allowed in 80% letoff and mechanical releases your chest thumping argument went down the toilet. CAN YOU ANSWER HOW YOUR HUNTING EXPERIENCE is affected by what another bow hunter uses? WE ARE WAITING-none of the rest of your crowd has really bothered other than FR saying he doesn't want anyone else in his woods





> we are winning and you are losing- I shoot a 44 pound recurve 25000 times a year and that with all sorts of injuries. why does a big strong stud like you have to use LETOFF? ONCE AGAIN, tell me how YOU are affected by what sort of bow another hunter uses


Well being that I am a big strong stud, my fingers do get tired and are growing tired and I have killed enough time, so I need to go to my appointment. You must be proud 44 pound recurve 25000 time a year. 
You guys really crack me up. Again I don't give two sheets what you use, no pressure on me, I got leased land, and plenty of public land that you only have to walk maybe 200 yards of the trail to get away from the expert hunters out there. I just don't think they should be used in archery season.
And Jim you STUFF it, I shoot my recurve's plenty and harvest game with them as well. I like to use my recurve for hunting as after all of the tournaments through the summer it is nice to get back to the stick and string. I also harvest animals with my compound. Don't talk me about any of that crap. I am all about archery and nothing about an x-bow other than helping my brother out when he needs it.

Keith


----------



## Jim C

I still don't see-through all the blather-an answer to how you are hurt by what kind of bow another guy uses

BTW we did tests with cameras on mckenzie targets and moving a crossbow to shoot at the target was as visible as drawing a compound

shooting skills are a small part of hunting skills

compounds and crossbows have no statistical difference in harvest rates or range or accuracy so your babbling is mere ignorance BowI

what we have here is a less than clever attempt to say people who don't "work as hard" as bowI shouldn't be able to bowhunt


He doesn't have enough wattage in his arguments to tell us why that should matter

Its a facade for selfishness-when you can't answer the real question, its fair to presume what really motivates these people

no one said a crossbow is exactly the same as a compound-each bow has certain advantages but in the bottom line-there is no real difference


----------



## Skeptic

Bow1 said:


> I aint against them and dont care what you do with them, Pope and Young is no place for animals killed with them. Boone and Crocket is diferent in that anything goes as long as if is fairchase. Ehtical and Legal. Cross bow people need to create there own books aside from BC and PY if they want a gripe. PY has been the way it is for years and I feel should not include any crossbow kill in there. Its some what of a compound but no where near the skill or ability as a person with a stick of compound has to use to kill his pray. Thats why you can kill any critter with anything and get it into BC, PY is a club with rules and it should not ever be changed. X-Bow should get there own books, and I could give a rats long tail if it was open to true archery kills as we got our place. Oh I forgot you got Buckmasters and SCI.
> 
> Keith


The problem with your reasoning here is that Pope and Young's rules are evolving. Every so many years they change the rules. They allow compounds now don't they? If P&Y wants any validity at all they should have kept with their original rules and not swayed at all for the sake of popularity!


----------



## Bow1

*Hahhahaha*

Bash head bash head, there is a big difference, and your feebl mind can tell I dont know what ot tell you. Babling that is all your doing you still never answered my questions and I have answere yours. IF you can not read, here it is again, it dont effect me one way or the other, I dont care. Its my opinion. Get it. Mr. Traditional Crossbow, as traditional as a long bow. IF that aint nuts.

Bang head bang head. People with ideas that can not see the dayligh are what keeps me employed. You want me to work to pull up all the times you and others have made light and said that compound and x-bow are the same. There not, and what BS is this bringing a x-bow up to shoot is the same as shooting maybe so the difference is you can already have it in position, where as I dont know anyone that can go out to their stand pull their bow back and set like that for hours till a deer walks by. Maybe you can with your 25000 a year shots. You got a log book on that?          Crack me up I tell you.

Keith


----------



## Bow1

*There is no problem with my reasoning*

X-bows are in a different class than a compound and any other hand drawn bow.

Simple. Thats it and final. 

They are fairchase but chase with them in somehting other than archery season. 

My opinion, and many feel the same way, if it was not the case every state would allow and swing joe to use one during archery season.

Keith


----------



## Marvin

Hunt Fair Chase Poll Results

Do you believe that hunting ethics go well beyond whether an act is legal or illegal?
Yes 95%
No 5%

Total Responses: 6724

taken from fair chase .com...link form B&C website. Guess hwo is quoted on the front page?? Saxton Pope...That evil dog.

More stuff

The information contained is intended to represent the interests of a broad spectrum of North American hunters and habitat managers. Since hunting ethics are a personal code of conduct self-imposed by hunters, there is diversity in how these ethics are expressed. Hunting practices, which are legal and customary in one state or province, may not be so in other areas. Within the bounds of legality there may exist hunting practices which some consider as unethical when measured against their own personal code. This diversity of opinion and belief is recognized in this website.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I still don't see-through all the blather-an answer to how you are hurt by what kind of bow another guy uses
> 
> BTW we did tests with cameras on mckenzie targets and moving a crossbow to shoot at the target was as visible as drawing a compound
> 
> shooting skills are a small part of hunting skills
> 
> compounds and crossbows have no statistical difference in harvest rates or range or accuracy so your babbling is mere ignorance BowI
> 
> what we have here is a less than clever attempt to say people who don't "work as hard" as bowI shouldn't be able to bowhunt
> 
> 
> He doesn't have enough wattage in his arguments to tell us why that should matter
> 
> Its a facade for selfishness-when you can't answer the real question, its fair to presume what really motivates these people
> 
> no one said a crossbow is exactly the same as a compound-each bow has certain advantages but in the bottom line-there is no real difference


The main issue has nothing to do with any of that. The issue is the expansion of rifle season. I know you know this, but maybe others don't. The opposition to crossbows is due to the fact that the allowance of them in archery season would simply extend the already generous seasons for gun hunters who for reasons that can't be explained, simply choose not to use a compound bow. Same for draw lock. Many bow hunters(I am one) do not hunt in any woods where a gun season is open. That leaves early season, late season, and what is left of the bow only refuge hunts. It's getting harder and harder to find places now. If I ever get my own land, I won't care, but that is not looking good right now.


----------



## Marvin

*More good stuff*

The Boone and Crockett Club, because it recognizes the trophy and not the hunter or owner, also accepts trophies that are picked up (e.g. *winter kills*, *road kills*, etc.) and trophies of unknown origin (e.g. *garage sales*, taxidermists, attics, etc.). Trophies accepted with unknown locations of harvest are eligible only if they are for a category without a boundary.


----------



## cynic

Pmantle that was a big jump all the way to rifle hunters, but I see from your stand that you choose not to hunt public land during gun season not that anyone disallows you to hunt..You look at it as someone is taking away from you, you limit yourself, not others. You make your choice not to hunt. Many hunters do not limit themselves to just bowhunting, many use bowhunting simply put by you as an extension of gun season and when gun season opens they adapt there equipment to that. I understand the fears that you and many others have about the woods being flooded with gun hunters shooting crossbows that have no idea how to bowhunt like you guys do. Well many of the bowhunters in the woods now are also gun hunters that make the choice not to limit themselves to one type of huning method and so could you..You make your choices and others should be able to make theirs


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> The main issue has nothing to do with any of that. The issue is the expansion of rifle season. I know you know this, but maybe others don't. The opposition to crossbows is due to the fact that the allowance of them in archery season would simply extend the already generous seasons for gun hunters who for reasons that can't be explained, simply choose not to use a compound bow. Same for draw lock. Many bow hunters(I am one) do not hunt in any woods where a gun season is open. That leaves early season, late season, and what is left of the bow only refuge hunts. It's getting harder and harder to find places now. If I ever get my own land, I won't care, but that is not looking good right now.



compounds were marketed as getting gun hunters into archery season

tell me what the difference is-you all want a time cost to bowhunt as a barrier to more numbers

nothing more, nothing less and I say its stupid.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> I understand the fears that you and many others have about the woods being flooded with gun hunters shooting crossbows that have no idea how to bowhunt like you guys do. Well many of the bowhunters in the woods now are also gun hunters that make the choice not to limit themselves to one type of huning method and so could you..You make your choices and others should be able to make theirs


They do make their choice, and that choice is to wait for muzzle loader to start. No one is keeping them out of bow season but themselves. If you believe there are a lot of bow hunters out there who actually hunt in bow season that really want to use a crossbow instead, I have some property I would like you to look at.


----------



## twogun

*source*



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by twogun
> Since this is added as a "note" at the end of the "Fair Chase" definition, does that mean that it is part of it? That's the way it's being interpreted, and I believe it is exactly what they want. The introductory bolded phrase is significant. If P&Y wants to define what equipment can be used for inclusion in their books, that's fine. They're a private organization that can set whatever standards they want, but their specific record book standards should not be used to define "Fair Chase."






> Source wrote:
> When you responded on the other thread with your very first huff of indignation, I knew that this is how you would try to weasel around the rules of fair chase. Semantics.....context.
> 
> It is not simply a matter "for their books"....it is bowhunting's rules of fair chase, just like B&C (another private organization) is the standard for the rest of hunting.


You parade around like some self appointed know it all who claims to speak for bowhunters and P&Y. You belittle other hunters calling them cheaters and priding yourself in convincing members of the nonhunting public that crossbow hunters are cheaters. You manipulate the principle of "Fair Chase" to further your political agenda. Guess what. You are not P&Y. You are not their spokesman. And in fact, you are flat out dead nuts WRONG!!!!

I sent an e mail to P&Y asking:



> Over the years, I have thoroughly enjoyed my time in the
> woods and have always prided myself in my hunting ethics. I have always
> considered myself a fair chase hunter. I've been told by some that I am violating the principles of fair chase when I hunt with my crossbow. The people who tell me this point to the Pope and Young statement of Fair Chase. I need some clarification.
> 
> The portion on crossbows is added at the end of the Fair Chase definition as
> a note and is introduced with a phrase about the P&Y record book. Is it Pope
> & Young's intention to define legal crossbow hunting during archery season, as
> we have in Ohio, as a violation of "Fair Chase", or is the club simply pointing
> out that they do not recognise crossbow kills?
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Tim Bartee


Here is the response:



> Tim,
> No, hunting with a crossbow is not a violation of fair chase. The statement
> is just to say that the Pope and Young Club doesn't accept crossbow
> harvested animals into our records.
> Thanks,
> Glenn Hisey



I guess that's the end of that.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> compounds were marketed as getting gun hunters into archery season
> 
> tell me what the difference is-you all want a time cost to bowhunt as a barrier to more numbers
> 
> nothing more, nothing less and I say its stupid.


You can say it all day. It doesn't make it true. You argue that there is no time cost. make up your mind.


----------



## Skeptic

Bow1 said:


> X-bows are in a different class than a compound and any other hand drawn bow.
> 
> Simple. Thats it and final.
> 
> They are fairchase but chase with them in somehting other than archery season.
> 
> My opinion, and many feel the same way, if it was not the case every state would allow and swing joe to use one during archery season.
> 
> Keith


The way that P&Y looks at crossbows now is about the same as the way looked at compound bows with letoff at one point! They adapted to what was a popular hunting method. As crossbow usage in archery season continues to grow I wouldn't be a bit surprised one day to see P&Y adapt to that as well. I'm not saying how I feel about the whole thing. It is obvious though that P&Y will change their rules if they feel that the majority wants it done that way. Right now 65% letoff is OK. Next it will be 80%, then 99%. What's next????? Crossbows! Eventually P&Y will allow anything not firing a bullet.


----------



## Marvin

FULLTIMEHUNTER said:


> The way that P&Y looks at crossbows now is about the same as the way looked at compound bows with letoff at one point! They adapted to what was a popular hunting method. As crossbow usage in archery season continues to grow I wouldn't be a bit surprised one day to see P&Y adapt to that as well. I'm not saying how I feel about the whole thing. It is obvious though that P&Y will change their rules if they feel that the majority wants it done that way. Right now 65% letoff is OK. Next it will be 80%, then 99%. What's next????? Crossbows! Eventually P&Y will allow anything not firing a bullet.


 everything has changed Fulltime. Every group.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> You can say it all day. It doesn't make it true. You argue that there is no time cost. make up your mind.



you miss the point-you all want less people bowhunting without banning yourselves. so you say "easy is bad" when its crossbows but say "easy" was good when it brought thousands of gun hunters into archery season with the compound and release

I don't care how easy the shooting is-its the range and predicted harvest that matters to me and YOU CANNOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE that a crossbow has a higher rate of harvest than a compound

if the archery apartheid advocates were HONEST they would argue that trad bows be separated from compounds

btw the traditional "hand held, hand drawn, hand released designed to keep crossbows out based on myth and assumptions also bans compound bows since it aint hand released in most cases and if a machine holds most of the weight its not hand held any more than a crossbow is hand held


----------



## Skeptic

Let me ask a general question here. Without bringing my own beliefs into the equation. I'll use myself as an example(note: this is not the case at all, just a question using me as an example). 

*Say I really love to bowhunt but for whatever reason I just can't hold the bow still. Not sure what the problem is but when my arm is extended out fully I just shake uncontrolably. Now I'm not letting anything stop me from spending time out bowhunting! It is my sole love in life! Now would you rather someone like me using a recurve or compound bow and taking a great chance of wounding a deer.....or would you rather me use a crossbow and being able to put an accurate shot on a deer? Oh by the way, I'd never shoot past 20 yds with either one.*

Now for my personal beliefs.... I have absolutely no interest in hunting with a crossbow myself. I do hunt every season my state lets me deer hunt. For most of the year that is with a compound bow. During shotgun season we are not permitted to use a bow at all. I use a shotgun during that time. If bow or crossbow were allowed in gun season then I would use whichever was allowed that I thought challenged myself the most. During our Muzzleloader season I use a bow! I just purchased a recurve so that I can hopefully challenge myself even more. That all said, if someone can't shoot a standard bow accuratley, which some people just can't....I'd much rather them use a crossbow instead of injuring a bunch of deer!!!!!!


----------



## Marvin

Jim I have a question how can you make this statement

"once again-95% of the people who buy bows have no interest in formal target competition-be it compounds or crossbows. "


And then use NFAA, IBO, and NAA (all formal target competition clubs/groups) say their archery and thus fair chase? Your using target references when for hunting definitions. I don't find that to be a fair statement. they treat them (compounds and crossbows) seperately so should we be doing the same so as to streamline the issue? Should we not be looking at our Bowhunting leaders for guidance on Bowhunting issues?


----------



## Marvin

FULLTIMEHUNTER said:


> Let me ask a general question here. Without bringing my own beliefs into the equation. I'll use myself as an example(note: this is not the case at all, just a question using me as an example).
> 
> *Say I really love to bowhunt but for whatever reason I just can't hold the bow still. Not sure what the problem is but when my arm is extended out fully I just shake uncontrolably. Now I'm not letting anything stop me from spending time out bowhunting! It is my sole love in life! Now would you rather someone like me using a recurve or compound bow and taking a great chance of wounding a deer.....or would you rather me use a crossbow and being able to put an accurate shot on a deer? Oh by the way, I'd never shoot past 20 yds with either one.*
> 
> Now for my personal beliefs.... I have absolutely no interest in hunting with a crossbow myself. I do hunt every season my state lets me deer hunt. For most of the year that is with a compound bow. During shotgun season we are not permitted to use a bow at all. I use a shotgun during that time. If bow or crossbow were allowed in gun season then I would use whichever was allowed that I thought challenged myself the most. During our Muzzleloader season I use a bow! I just purchased a recurve so that I can hopefully challenge myself even more. That all said, if someone can't shoot a standard bow accuratley, which some people just can't....I'd much rather them use a crossbow instead of injuring a bunch of deer!!!!!!



good post fulltime but it is a little off topic. lets save it for a rainy day


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim I have a question how can you make this statement
> 
> "once again-95% of the people who buy bows have no interest in formal target competition-be it compounds or crossbows. "
> 
> 
> And then use NFAA, IBO, and NAA (all formal target competition clubs/groups) say their archery and thus fair chase? Your using target references when for hunting definitions. I don't find that to be a fair statement. they treat them (compounds and crossbows) seperately so should we be doing the same so as to streamline the issue? Should we not be looking at our Bowhunting leaders for guidance on Bowhunting issues?



1) there was an argument that if we allow crossbows into archery season then crossbows will become the dominant archery season weapon-as it has become in ohio

>>>>>I argued that it matters not to society what form of bow people bowhunt with

2) then it was argued that this would cause people to lose archery skills which in turn hurts our competitive archery pool

>>>>>>>>>I argued that most people who buy bows have no interest in target archery and most of our olympic competitiors are did not come from the hunting ranks so an argument that crossbow legalization hurts our international archery standing is without merit

nothing more nothing less

I also want SOURCE to explain how SOCIETY-or even BOWHUNTING-cares if most people are using recurves, compound.release or crossbows to harvest deer


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> You parade around like some self appointed know it all who claims to speak for bowhunters and P&Y. You belittle other hunters calling them cheaters and priding yourself in convincing members of the nonhunting public that crossbow hunters are cheaters. You manipulate the principle of "Fair Chase" to further your political agenda. Guess what. You are not P&Y. You are not their spokesman.





twogun said:


> I guess that's the end of that.


First off, chill with the large print. This is like the 3rd time you've done it. I will find your responses and answer your questions when it fits into my schedule. Screaming isn't necessary.

Secondly - Berating me with your insults won't motivate me to respond to your statements any sooner, either.

Your accusations are ridiculous. I have stated repeatedly things like "Far be it from me to speak for the P&Y club..." I never claimed to speak for P&Y (and in fact, declared the opposite), never claimed to be their spokesman, and never claimed to be the voice of bowhunters. You have completely lost it, and you really need to get a grip.

Please demonstrate where you have any evidence of me "priding yourself in convincing members of the nonhunting public that crossbow hunters are cheaters." That's a flat out lie. I have never claimed to convince anyone (except legislators) that crossbows are cheating.

I do not even agree I'm manipulating the principle of fair chase....I've said it was my opinion.

It still is.



twogun said:


> I guess that's the end of that.


Congratulations on getting an answer that puts P&Y's official stand to rest. That is, indeed, the end of that.

Doesn't change my opinion, though.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I don't care how easy the shooting is-its the range and predicted harvest that matters to me and YOU CANNOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE that a crossbow has a higher rate of harvest than a compound
> 
> if the archery apartheid advocates were HONEST they would argue that trad bows be separated from compounds
> 
> btw the traditional "hand held, hand drawn, hand released designed to keep crossbows out based on myth and assumptions also bans compound bows since it aint hand released in most cases and if a machine holds most of the weight its not hand held any more than a crossbow is hand held


Rate of harvest is irrelevant to this discussion. 

Your hand drawn statement is the dumbest of all the dumb things you've ever written. Why do you expose yourself to ridicule like this? I tell you what. Put a release on, draw your crossbow and hold it there till the deer comes, or draw it when he appears, and you'll never hear me complain about crossbows again. Remember, most of us are just as against the drawlock as we are the crossbow.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I don't care how easy the shooting is-its the range and predicted harvest that matters to me and YOU CANNOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE that a crossbow has a higher rate of harvest than a compound


2005 VA "Archery" season statistics show that crossbow harvest rate was, in fact, higher than the bowhunting harvest rate.

Whoops. There it is.


----------



## Marvin

thesource said:


> 2005 VA "Archery" season statistics show that crossbow harvest rate was, in fact, higher than the bowhunting harvest rate.
> 
> Whoops. There it is.


Souce, if you have time post up that good data.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Rate of harvest is irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Your hand drawn statement is the dumbest of all the dumb things you've ever written. Why do you expose yourself to ridicule like this? I tell you what. Put a release on, draw your crossbow and hold it there till the deer comes, or draw it when he appears, and you'll never hear me complain about crossbows again. Remember, most of us are just as against the drawlock as we are the crossbow.



LOL and you are calling my post stupid-hand held and hand released was what I was talking about and its hard to claim a compound with a release meets either definition while a crossbow does not

just tell me how your slavish devotion to holding back 12 pounds matters and HARVEST RATES DO NOT

I bet you a grand I can hold a 60 pound 80% let off compound on the x of a NFAA target longer than you can hold my crossbow similarly steady from a standing position (no ISU rifle jacket allowed)

I know its easy money-we have put lasers on compounds and crossbows and the compound wins EVERYTIME

you antis pick the most inane areas of supposed differences to justify keeping people out of a public season while disregarding the areas that really matter to the public and game commissions


----------



## thesource

PMantle said:


> Why do you expose yourself to ridicule like this? I tell you what. Put a release on, draw your crossbow and hold it there till the deer comes, or draw it when he appears, and you'll never hear me complain about crossbows again. Remember, most of us are just as against the drawlock as we are the crossbow.


ROFLMAO.

Take a video of 2 things, while you are at it Jim. The footage of you trying this will be hilarious. The footage of your hernia operation might be funny, too.

LOL


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> ROFLMAO.
> 
> Take a video of 2 things, while you are at it Jim. The footage of you trying this will be hilarious. The footage of your hernia operation might be funny, too.
> 
> LOL



If you want to start with personal insults that is fine with me-your mental issues are well known to both the general posters and the moderators on this forum
even several of the anti crossbow posters have noted your obsessive compulsive affliction

why don't you step up to the plate and give it a shot-that is assuming you know how to shoot a bow

why don't you PM CHPRO-former world compound field champion and ask him what is easier to hold steady

rather than being ignorant as you are, he actually tried my crossbow at NFAA nationals


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> If you want to start with personal insults that is fine with me-your mental issues are well known to both the general posters and the moderators on this forum
> even several of the anti crossbow posters have noted your obsessive compulsive affliction
> 
> why don't you step up to the plate and give it a shot-that is assuming you know how to shoot a bow
> 
> why don't you PM CHPRO-former world compound field champion and ask him what is easier to hold steady
> 
> rather than being ignorant as you are, he actually tried my crossbow at NFAA nationals


That's not a personal insult, Jim, and you know it.

Scan back through your responses to Bow1 if you are looking for personal insults.

I've already extended my offer to you, Jim, but you refused. I will take 10 shots with one of my bows while you take 10 shots with your favorite crossbow. Then we'll switch, and you can take 10 shots with my bow and I'll knock the center out with your crossbow.

If I remember correctly, I think you took issue with my 31" draw length, or some such detail that makes a difference when we are discussing real bows and stringguns.

No matter.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That's not a personal insult, Jim, and you know it.
> 
> Scan back through your responses to Bow1 if you are looking for personal insults.
> 
> I've already extended my offer to you, Jim, but you refused. I will take 10 shots with one of my bows while you take 10 shots with your favorite crossbow. Then we'll switch, and you can take 10 shots with my bow and I'll knock the center out with your crossbow.
> 
> If I remember correctly, I think you took issue with my 31" draw length, or some such detail that makes a difference when we are discussing real bows and stringguns.
> 
> No matter.


funny how the three time world crossbow champion didn't clean louisville (599) while dozens of compound guys did

once again source, compounds are no more "real bows" based on tradition than crossbows. Your obsession over what another guy uses in terms of archery equipment is really pathological. IT HURTS YOU NOT what another guy uses. 

I have a dozen people who post on this forum who have seen me shoot 300 scores with a 60 pound compound-got a 1350 FITA with one too (not star though)

I think that proves I can shoot the compound pretty well


----------



## cynic

Originally Posted by PMantle
Why do you expose yourself to ridicule like this? I tell you what. Put a release on, draw your crossbow and hold it there till the deer comes, or draw it when he appears, and you'll never hear me complain about crossbows again. Remember, most of us are just as against the drawlock as we are the crossbow. 


JimC,
Remember these are the same ones that said a compound couldn't be shot 1 handed. When I shot both a cbow and a xbow at the same time drawing the bow with my teeth they said that's not one handed..They will never stop don't believe them. They just want people to be like them because they think they are better..


----------



## twogun

> Please demonstrate where you have any evidence of me "priding yourself in convincing members of the nonhunting public that crossbow hunters are cheaters." That's a flat out lie.


Thank you for making it easy. Now I don't have to search. Here is your evidence.



> I have never claimed to convince anyone *(except legislators)* that crossbows are cheating.


There how's that?


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> Thank you for making it easy. Now I don't have to search. Here is your evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> There how's that?


 did he say the legislater was a non hunter?? Maybe he doesn't have any experience with one.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Originally Posted by PMantle
> Why do you expose yourself to ridicule like this? I tell you what. Put a release on, draw your crossbow and hold it there till the deer comes, or draw it when he appears, and you'll never hear me complain about crossbows again. Remember, most of us are just as against the drawlock as we are the crossbow.
> 
> 
> JimC,
> Remember these are the same ones that said a compound couldn't be shot 1 handed. When I shot both a cbow and a xbow at the same time drawing the bow with my teeth they said that's not one handed..They will never stop don't believe them. They just want people to be like them because they think they are better..


 cynic...good quotes. Even more evidence that people don't need a crossbow to hunt with. As long as they have teeth you know...


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Thank you for making it easy. Now I don't have to search. Here is your evidence.
> 
> Quote:
> I have never claimed to convince anyone (except legislators) that crossbows are cheating.
> 
> There how's that?


They both HUNT....ha ha ha.

Try again.


----------



## twogun

Ok.



> (like the landowners I have convinced to post their 2300 acres "NO CROSSBOWS" should they ever become legal in NY...lol).



How bout this one?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> cynic...good quotes. Even more evidence that people don't need a crossbow to hunt with. As long as they have teeth you know...


need is not relevant in a free society. we don't need to bowhunt, we don't need to do most of the stuff we want to do

in a free society, the proper allocation of burdens of proof are on those who want to restrict what others do. That is why saying Crossbow hunters don't "do anything" for bowseason is a specious argument

I can prove that the range and practical accuracy of a compound and crossbow are the same. NO ONE CAN PROVE that crossbows hurt the herd, or are "unfair" to deer compared to a compound

the burden is on your side to prove that a crossbow should be excluded from a season that allows a compound

you can't meet that burden and you know it so you turn it around and tell us we should meet standards trads and compounds never had to meet


----------



## Bow1

*Dang right I am against draw locks in archer season as well.*

I dont really care for anything over 80 percent lett off either, I admire some who that are disable and can only use an extremley high let off bow. They are still drawing it back, instead of going to a crossbow. Draw locks and crossbows should not be allowed in archery season. That is my opinion. Like I said I aint gonna cry if they get legalized in everystate. Lots of things get legalized I dont agree with. Just my opinion. 



> Let me ask a general question here. Without bringing my own beliefs into the equation. I'll use myself as an example(note: this is not the case at all, just a question using me as an example).
> 
> Say I really love to bowhunt but for whatever reason I just can't hold the bow still. Not sure what the problem is but when my arm is extended out fully I just shake uncontrolably. Now I'm not letting anything stop me from spending time out bowhunting! It is my sole love in life! Now would you rather someone like me using a recurve or compound bow and taking a great chance of wounding a deer.....or would you rather me use a crossbow and being able to put an accurate shot on a deer? Oh by the way, I'd never shoot past 20 yds with either one.
> 
> Now for my personal beliefs.... I have absolutely no interest in hunting with a crossbow myself. I do hunt every season my state lets me deer hunt. For most of the year that is with a compound bow. During shotgun season we are not permitted to use a bow at all. I use a shotgun during that time. If bow or crossbow were allowed in gun season then I would use whichever was allowed that I thought challenged myself the most. During our Muzzleloader season I use a bow! I just purchased a recurve so that I can hopefully challenge myself even more. That all said, if someone can't shoot a standard bow accuratley, which some people just can't....I'd much rather them use a crossbow instead of injuring a bunch of deer!!!!!!


My opinion on this situation is first off if he cant hold the bow steady, then they cant hold anything steady and should not be hunting, in other words they need to be able to hit what they are aiming at. Now if its only with a bow then like I said before its a disability and I got no gripes for them to use a cross bow in archery season. 

Keith


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> need is not relevant in a free society. we don't need to bowhunt, we don't need to do most of the stuff we want to do
> 
> in a free society, the proper allocation of burdens of proof are on those who want to restrict what others do. That is why saying Crossbow hunters don't "do anything" for bowseason is a specious argument
> 
> I can prove that the range and practical accuracy of a compound and crossbow are the same. NO ONE CAN PROVE that crossbows hurt the herd, or are "unfair" to deer compared to a compound
> 
> the burden is on your side to prove that a crossbow should be excluded from a season that allows a compound
> 
> you can't meet that burden and you know it so you turn it around and tell us we should meet standards trads and compounds never had to meet



if their harvest rates are higher than yes they can be viewed as a detriment. pending the herd size and DNR goals


----------



## cynic

Marvin,
It's funny how you use it to your benefit now but when it proved that it could be done all cbow users took offense that someone actually showed how easy it is to draw and hold a verticle bow..The xbow does not hold a patent on ease of use they are both much easier than portrayed in the hunting arena


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Marvin,
> It's funny how you use it to your benefit now but when it proved that it could be done all cbow users took offense that someone actually showed how easy it is to draw and hold a verticle bow..The xbow does not hold a patent on ease of use they are both much easier than portrayed in the hunting arena


 i'll address the meat pitch, Sure he could do it but I can bet 4 to 1 that his effective range ( not one set by himself) changed quite a bit. with the crossbow it would have expanded. fair chase??


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> if their harvest rates are higher than yes they can be viewed as a detriment. pending the herd size and DNR goals


yet NOT A SINGLE state has found xbows to be a detriment or having a negative impact on the herd-that is why those against xbows have to base their positions on sophistry and appeals to "fairness" or in the case of BowI
no rational thought at all


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> i'll address the meat pitch, Sure he could do it but I can bet 4 to 1 that his effective range ( not one set by himself) changed quite a bit. with the crossbow it would have expanded. fair chase??


On a 63lb 85% letoff SDS and a 150lb crossbow the effective range would not vary. What would vary is the hunters comfort level at shot distances. Ranges and confidence levels are set by each individual hunter not someone else..This is where some of you have a problem "not everybody is alike"


----------



## Bow1

*Man the life boats*

       

Some people just got no brains. 

Keith


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> On a 63lb 85% letoff SDS and a 150lb crossbow the effective range would not vary. What would vary is the hunters comfort level at shot distances. Ranges and confidence levels are set by each individual hunter not someone else..This is where some of you have a problem "not everybody is alike"


Horse dung. Not even sure you shoot a bow now. Ranges and confidence levels are WHat? surely you gest or made a fool. ability determenes ranges. tell all the guys that shhot competition that they are sohoting low scores becuase they are limiting their range ...B freakin S


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> Some people just got no brains.
> 
> Keith


true enough-I suspect we differ on who we are thinking about


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> true enough-I suspect we differ on who we are thinking about


Should we start another poll Jim?? :tongue: That would be too funny


----------



## Bow1

*I guess if I think about it*

All of you on this thread that think the crossbow should be allowed in archery season, and that a cross bow is the same as a compound or any other bow and arrow are correct. That is you should use one as you must have a disability in the noggin.   WHich if you read my post I clearly state that if a person has a disabiliy then by all means they should use a cross bow. Case settled hunt on. :darkbeer: Where is the one for light beer?


Keith


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> LOL and you are calling my post stupid-hand held and hand released was what I was talking about and its hard to claim a compound with a release meets either definition while a crossbow does not
> 
> just tell me how your slavish devotion to holding back 12 pounds matters and HARVEST RATES DO NOT
> 
> I bet you a grand I can hold a 60 pound 80% let off compound on the x of a NFAA target longer than you can hold my crossbow similarly steady from a standing position (no ISU rifle jacket allowed)
> 
> I know its easy money-we have put lasers on compounds and crossbows and the compound wins EVERYTIME
> 
> you antis pick the most inane areas of supposed differences to justify keeping people out of a public season while disregarding the areas that really matter to the public and game commissions


Your argument does not address my point at all. Again, use a compound release on a crossbow, and you'll never hear from me again.


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> All of you on this thread that think the crossbow should be allowed in archery season, and that a cross bow is the same as a compound or any other bow and arrow are correct. That is you should use one as you must have a disability in the noggin.   WHich if you read my post I clearly state that if a person has a disabiliy then by all means they should use a cross bow. Case settled hunt on. :darkbeer: Where is the one for light beer?
> 
> 
> Keith


I think you are going to get whipped even worse if you want to play silly games as to who is smarter or mentally sharp

NOt only are you lying about our position, you have failed to post a single argument other than your mistaken belief that you are somehow better because of what type of bow you use and that you just don't want crossbows


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Your argument does not address my point at all. Again, use a compound release on a crossbow, and you'll never hear from me again.



Irrelevant and stupid

prove to me that a crossbow has an unfair advantage that translates into a deleterious effect upon the herd.

you all lost your argument when compounds were legalized


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Irrelevant and stupid
> 
> prove to me that a crossbow has an unfair advantage that translates into a deleterious effect upon the herd.
> 
> you all lost your argument when compounds were legalized


Again, it's got nothing to do with that, but then again, you won't go there because it exposes you.


----------



## Bow1

*Whipped Huh hahahahhaha*

That was about as funny as your comment that your wooden limb cross bow was as traditional as a long bow. Sily games? 

Again you have not answered the questions I posed to you. 

Irelevant and stupid huh. We do not have to prove jack, you prove to us that it is the same. What I do and the seasons I hunt in are already here and in place, your the one trying to bring a weapon that is not what archery is about into it. I do not have to prove anything.



> *I think* you are going to get whipped


Please don't do that, that is the problem. 

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> That was about as funny as your comment that your wooden limb cross bow was as traditional as a long bow. Sily games?
> 
> Again you have not answered the questions I posed to you.
> 
> Irelevant and stupid huh. We do not have to prove jack, you prove to us that it is the same. What I do and the seasons I hunt in are already here and in place, your the one trying to bring a weapon that is not what archery is about into it. I do not have to prove anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't do that, that is the problem.
> 
> Keith



one of the signs of stupidity is the inability to understand sarcasm

I don't have to prove xbows are the same-the burden is on you to prove why people should be excluded

I can prove that xbows are no more accurate, and have no longer range than compounds-I can also prove that there is NO EVIDENCE that crossbows are hurting the herd in areas where they are legal

You are clearly too uneducated as to the presumptions and burdens in a free society

you all couldn't prove compounds should have been allowed in bow season using your standards

your attitude is that the law should remain based on you not liking a kind of bow which is not only self centered, its an afront to what this country stands for
now what was your question?


----------



## Bow1

*Oh man, that hurts*



> one of the signs of stupidity is the inability to understand sarcasm


Right back at you.



> You are clearly too uneducated as to the presumptions and burdens in a free society


I will be able to determine that after my thesis is complete.



> your attitude is that the law should remain based on you not liking a kind of bow which is not only self centered, its an afront to what this country stands for
> now what was your question?


I never said I did not like crossbows, I said they do not belong in archery season. And I think your opinion is self centered. So there.

Lets see??????? One of my questions was why do you use a crossbow? 

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> Right back at you.
> 
> 
> 
> I will be able to determine that after my thesis is complete.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said I did not like crossbows, I said they do not belong in archery season. And I think your opinion is self centered. So there.
> 
> Lets see??????? One of my questions was why do you use a crossbow?
> 
> Keith



cause I like to shoot them-same reason why I compete with an olympic bow 
I like to shoot all sorts of stuff-I even used to compete in slingshot tournaments as well as being on the All America Skeet team. I shoot ISU Air rifle, olympic trap, IPSC pistol, small bore rifle, sporting clays, and archery. 

why do you use a compound? 

How does it HURT you what the guy a mile a way uses to bowhunt with given you can't prove that his crossbow has any greater range or accuracy or rate of fire over your bow


----------



## Bow1

*I like them because*

this goes for my compound and recurve. I like the challenge of taking an animal with a bow. I prefer to stalk them, locate them before they locate me and then draw my bow undetected and send an arrow through their heart. I also like them to comepte with in the ASA, IBO and NFAA. 

It dont hurt me if they are 300 yards away. I dont agree with them being in archery season, I have told you the reasons, that is all. I have said also that I am not going to go a complain about it. If I ever had to vote somewhere I would be against it. If they legalize it where I hunt, I just have to deal with it, no disrespect but If I know you I may snicker at you or poke fun at you if I seen ya out in the woods hunting with one during archery season. I am not against crossbows. I dont agree with them in archery season that is all. Archery to me is a bow and arrow, fingers or release drawing back an arrow and then releaseing it. Not anything cocked and locked ready to fire. 

My next question is why did it take you over a dozen post to answer that simple question I asked many pages ago?

Keith


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Ok.
> How bout this one?
> 
> Quote:
> (like the landowners I have convinced to post their 2300 acres "NO CROSSBOWS" should they ever become legal in NY...lol).


Nope. All bowhunters. (I didn't say I had to do much convincing.) 

Keep trying. LOL.


----------



## twogun

I assure you I didn't just make it up. I knew I got the idea somewhere. I'll give you the bennfit of the doubt and take the blame for jumping to a conclusion and accusing yo of something you didn't state directly. But, here is how I connected the dots.



> To the first... I think its obvious that *nonhunters (my neighbors, anyway) *feel that crossbows in bow season are cheating the deer. That means violating their idea of fair chase, although they may not be familiar to the concept.


coupled with:




> (like the landowners I have convinced to post their 2300 acres "NO CROSSBOWS" should they ever become legal in NY...lol).


I evidently assumed too much. I assumed your neighbors and the land owners you referenced were the same. I'll eat crow on that one.


----------



## thesource

No need to eat crow. 

I sense a lot of animosity Twogun.
No reason to take any of this personally. Or to get personal.

We have different philosophies about hunting, and about bowhunting. That doesn't really mean that one is entirely right and the other is entirely wrong.


----------



## cynic

Bow1 said:


> If they legalize it where I hunt, I just have to deal with it, no disrespect but If I know you I may snicker at you or poke fun at you if I seen ya out in the woods hunting with one during archery season. I am not against crossbows. I dont agree with them in archery season that is all.
> Keith


Well Keith they are legal to hunt this year in FL on private land. Each zone will have a season..The only thing I hated about it is the dang cbows will fill up our season trying to kill all our big deer..JK I have a standing invite for all those that wish to hunt by whatever means if you are in my neck of the woods call I'll have a tree for ya'


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> this goes for my compound and recurve. I like the challenge of taking an animal with a bow. I prefer to stalk them, locate them before they locate me and then draw my bow undetected and send an arrow through their heart. I also like them to comepte with in the ASA, IBO and NFAA.
> 
> It dont hurt me if they are 300 yards away. I dont agree with them being in archery season, I have told you the reasons, that is all. I have said also that I am not going to go a complain about it. If I ever had to vote somewhere I would be against it. If they legalize it where I hunt, I just have to deal with it, no disrespect but If I know you I may snicker at you or poke fun at you if I seen ya out in the woods hunting with one during archery season. I am not against crossbows. I dont agree with them in archery season that is all. Archery to me is a bow and arrow, fingers or release drawing back an arrow and then releaseing it. Not anything cocked and locked ready to fire.
> 
> My next question is why did it take you over a dozen post to answer that simple question I asked many pages ago?
> 
> Keith


ah an ego problem-laughing at another hunter

just what PETA likes to see

so you admit that a crossbow in archery season doesn't hurt you

thanks

I knew that answer though


----------



## thesource

That doesn't make it right.


----------



## progers

2 words - "POOP" & "DUNG" ukey: 

When P&Y lowered the bar on the limit of # pull, they broke the "FC" themselves.  

P&Y definition - FAIR CHASE STATEMENT
FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

If crossbows are legal in a certain state to use to harvest wild game then, it is FAIR CHASE!

Now, reading the part that states "in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals" sounds like that using ANY weapon would be considered not to be "fair chase" since the animal does not have one and that gives YOU an "unfair advantage" over the animal. So, food plots, corn, cover scents and camouflage, by definition of P&Y is also an "unfair advantage" over the animal. 

Sounds to me that P&Y is becoming "anti-hunter" since they are attacking crossbows and trying to ban them nation wide. 

Hence - POOP & DUNG! 

I guess that B&C should start allowing automatic rifles now!?!


----------



## Bow1

*JimC*

Nothing on this sight really hurts me, nor does an idiot in the woods with a cross bow. Get a life. 

Are you bipolar?

You knew the answer, no sheet, I think over my many post about crossbows over the last few years pretty much says that. So whats new. 

Ego problem, PETA, blah blah, your probably an undercover PETA spy anyhow, with all this gibberish, oh wait am I. 

I would bust your balls if you ever tried to keep up with me. Make sure you bring your defibrillator. 

Oh wait I don't have my log book of my 25000 arrows a year maybe I should just be quite, keep talking though, I am getting some good research material and (don't worry I wont use you real name or even screen name) for my project. I appreciate twogun starting this. Just the catalyst I needed as I could not initiate it myself. Anyhow zealots will be that.

Keith


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That doesn't make it right.



I think we have already established that what you think is right is supported neither by fact nor logic and I really tire of nobodies trying to impose their religion on me-especially when they have no rational thought backing up their creed


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> ........nor does an idiot in the woods with a cross bow.
> 
> Keith


A crossbow does not an idiot make. That is something that you are born with.


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> Nothing on this sight really hurts me, nor does an idiot in the woods with a cross bow. Get a life.
> 
> Are you bipolar?
> 
> You knew the answer, no sheet, I think over my many post about crossbows over the last few years pretty much says that. So whats new.
> 
> Ego problem, PETA, blah blah, your probably an undercover PETA spy anyhow, with all this gibberish, oh wait am I.
> 
> I would bust your balls if you ever tried to keep up with me. Make sure you bring your defibrillator.
> 
> Oh wait I don't have my log book of my 25000 arrows a year maybe I should just be quite, keep talking though, I am getting some good research material and (don't worry I wont use you real name or even screen name) for my project. I appreciate twogun starting this. Just the catalyst I needed as I could not initiate it myself. Anyhow zealots will be that.
> 
> Keith


ah a tough guy whose ego is starting to show. YOur comments about PETA show how really lame you are. its too bad for your LIES that TINK knows me and knows damn well that I am a hunter-one of his famous African Hunter friends (the Late Steven Smith) mentions me in a book the fellow wrote about hunting in Kenya

I have no idea how old you are tough guy -I am 47, I have had both my knees scoped, have had my shoulder rebuilt but I doubt you got anything that would bother me

you clearly demonstrate the "mentality" of the archery apartheid crowd though

thanks and its people like you who claim to snicker at other bow hunters who are the wet dreams of Ingrid Newkirk and her ilk


----------



## Bow1

*I thought for once*

You where actually going to be rational and have a conversation. This last post proves it aint so. Huh 


Keith


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> You where actually going to be rational and have a conversation. This last post proves it aint so. Huh Keith


anyone calling someone else a PETA member or claiming he will snicker at fellow hunters is not capable of rational thought

I am curious tough guy-is it your ego or your sense of self worth that causes your airs of false superiority over other fellow hunters?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Now it’s cults again, I was wondering how long it would take for the “C” word to be used.
> Hey what happened to Ace, is must be out, not, shooting a x-bow somewhere.


OK, FR YOU * need *to get over "your bad self".........

*I* don't and have NOT EVER shot a crossbow........period.........SO WHAT??

THAT is niether "new news" or "any news"......FACT, is(unlike YOU), I happen to belive those who CHOSE to do so, are no "less special" than me OR YOU....


MOST PEOPLE, would 'get a clue" had they be banned as much as you from as many forums as you have OVER THIS EXACT THING......but not YOU........

YOU STILL have NOT learned, how to debate, without being "personal" and using "attacks".....so be it....

*I* have challenged YOU and several others, to prove MY "other motives", since YOU and THEY seem to assume they exist.......as always YOU guys CAN NOT DO IT.......(because there is NONE)........

IF it were NOT so sad, it would be "funny", but alas, it IS sad, that a FEW of YOU and YOUR little group, actually THINK, YOU can persuade anyone to see things "your way", YET instead or YOU guys, even trying to use actual factual DATA, YOU and YOURS .....somehow "think", that personal attacks"........equate to the same exact thing.........THEY DONT' btw.....NOT even close.......

YOU at EVERY turn, feel free to question MY data, and facts, all the while FAIL in a HUGE way to present ANY OF YOUR OWN......as do your three little "cronies"........period....

FACT; WE (that would be the pro-inclusion side) provide ACTUAL FACTUAL DATA AND FACTS.........ALL

YOU guys do is question those, TRY to "cast doubt" on them..........WITHOUT EVER .......even the least single shread of ANY evidence..........AND what is really "sad" IS YOU and YOURS actually think, others "fall for that tactic"........YOU and YOURS live in this "dream world" and it's only going to catch up with all of you real soon......

WHILE YOU GUYS........are calling me "crybaby" etc., HOW many are reading my FACTS.......and drawing thier own conclusions based upon FACTS??.....

HOW many are buying your guys "spin" on these facts?? Based upon......what?? Pure BS..

YET YOU guys have said......SQUEAL ..........etc. I'm only "digging it deeper."......................ONLY IN YOUR little "dream world" where FACTS AND DATA are not relevent , where each of YOU seem to think that YOU EACH are of SO much importance........to matter one "whit" in the whole "scheme of things"........

NEWSFLASH......

MOST HUNTERS(and I'd bet nationwide, MOST BOWHUNTERS) don't give a flying.......anything about P&Y........period.........NICE you don't want to accept that, but IF the numberr of bowhunters YOU guys say exist IN REALITY DO, AND CARE...........WHY are they NOT members supporting ........them.....???? INtersting concept isn't it........REALITY I mean

Sooooooo..........all the while WE (the pro-inclusion side.......YOU know those of us, "horning in").......MAKE VALID CLAIMS...............AND ask that YOU guys(those opposed to crossbow inclusion......for YOUR own selfish, egotistical reasons)..........HAVE NOTHING to dispute even ONE fact............soooooooooo

Nothing IS left.......but to TRY to make others question US....(that would be those with ALL FACTS AND DATA ON OUR SIDE BTW)..........But it's very important to NOTE: that not once do ANY OF YOU......."back that up with such data OR facts..")..........interesting...........HOWEVER......NOT good enough to ONLY continue to INSULT us.........or try to, which in the end is the BEST that YOU guys can do.......YOU guys obviously have nothing else, even YOUR "beloved P&Y " hasn't the support YOU guys say you do have, so WE therefore KNOW the truth and FACTS.

IOW , who IS the minority on THIS issue? YOU GUYS ARE.......once YOU guys deal with that, perhaps WE can then have some kind of actual useful dialogue??? (though I doubt it.......as YOU GUYS.....are so long on division and short on unity) as YOU guys keep proving daily........"MY way OR NOTHING" that IS your ONLY stance.......AS is proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN......in ONLY 3 new threads.........

I 'rest my case'..........YOU guys are THE worst enemies of bowhunting AND HUNTING IN GENERAL.......PERIOD....... 

AND YOU GUYS HAVE PROVEN IT HERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE!!


----------



## Bow1

*Here we go with the name calling again.*

I dont give a sheet who mentions you in any book, I will most defiantely mention you in one. You might not want to read it. You come on here throwing fire about how a cross bow is the same, trying to ram the crap down peoples throat, calling me many names which I take in stride and telling me I am peta and the devil and stupid and dumb all because I dont agree with you dimented mind. You say your 47 you act like your 16, and no one else can have an opinion. 

And you say ah tough guy whose ego is starting to show, go back and read your crap, mr. 25000 arrows. I will be the first to tell you pall, I done my time in many places, and right now I still am. You dont want to go there. 

Why dont you start acting your age and maybe you wont get so much flac.
I actually foolishy though you where actually going to accept my opinion and actually say something worth reading, instead of puting someone down because of their opinions. Boy I gave you more credit and smarts than I should have. 

Keith


----------



## Skeptic

This thread is very disappointing!!!!!! I don't care which side you are for! Will you guys just go back and read all of the personal attacks! They are doing absolutely no good for anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## progers

aceoky said:


> ..........YOU guys are THE worst enemies of bowhunting AND HUNTING IN GENERAL.......PERIOD.......
> 
> AND YOU GUYS HAVE PROVEN IT HERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE!!


They do it every chance they get!  

Where is the BABY SITTER?????? :darkbeer:


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> I dont give a sheet who mentions you in any book, I will most defiantely mention you in one. You might not want to read it. You come on here throwing fire about how a cross bow is the same, trying to ram the crap down peoples throat, calling me many names which I take in stride and telling me I am peta and the devil and stupid and dumb all because I dont agree with you dimented mind. You say your 47 you act like your 16, and no one else can have an opinion.
> 
> And you say ah tough guy whose ego is starting to show, go back and read your crap, mr. 25000 arrows. I will be the first to tell you pall, I done my time in many places, and right now I still am. You dont want to go there.
> 
> Why dont you start acting your age and maybe you wont get so much flac.
> I actually foolishy though you where actually going to accept my opinion and actually say something worth reading, instead of puting someone down because of their opinions. Boy I gave you more credit and smarts than I should have.
> 
> Keith




What is funny is that FLORDIA just passed a new CROSSBOW HUNTING LAW! I guess there is intellegent life over there after all!


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> I dont give a sheet who mentions you in any book, I will most defiantely mention you in one. You might not want to read it. You come on here throwing fire about how a cross bow is the same, trying to ram the crap down peoples throat, calling me many names which I take in stride and telling me I am peta and the devil and stupid and dumb all because I dont agree with you dimented mind. You say your 47 you act like your 16, and no one else can have an opinion.



You are lying again. I don't care what a clown mentions in his book. Its DEMENTED BTW-perhaps you best hire a good proof reader for "Legends of Keith's Mind" or whatever you will call your book. You have a serious psychological problem. You tie your self worth to your self-perceived standing as the great white hunter. Your self worth is diminished when others don't buy into your cult like beliefs as to bowhunting. You can have an opinion-but I have no use for bigoted opinions that seek to infringe on the rights and desires of other people simply because your ego doesn't like what they want to do. You have admitted that you cannot give a rational objective reason for opposing crossbows and yet you are upset that we find your arguments wanting.



Bow1 said:


> And you say ah tough guy whose ego is starting to show, go back and read your crap, mr. 25000 arrows. I will be the first to tell you pall, I done my time in many places, and right now I still am. You dont want to go there.
> 
> Why dont you start acting your age and maybe you wont get so much flac.
> I actually foolishy though you where actually going to accept my opinion and actually say something worth reading, instead of puting someone down because of their opinions. Boy I gave you more credit and smarts than I should have.


Time in what places-you have been putting crossbow archers down constantly-you admitted you would laugh at a hunter using a bow you don't like. Show me what you got big boy. Its fun calling people like you out. You post some BS and think because you have an opinion, we need to respect it. I don't respect anyone who wants to castigate or limit other hunters based on an irrational argument tied to your own self esteem issues


----------



## Bow1

*Yes there is but I am sorry to say*

The Gov is transfering me this summer so the intelligent life will be leaving. 

They passed that because the damn hogs are eating everything and they need anyone and everyone to start killing them.  

Even so I aint gonna cry its legal so its legal. Do you agree with every law that is passed? 




Keith


----------



## Jim C

FULLTIMEHUNTER said:


> This thread is very disappointing!!!!!! I don't care which side you are for! Will you guys just go back and read all of the personal attacks! They are doing absolutely no good for anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


NOTHING IS MORE DESTRUCTIVE than some people claiming that another bowhunters' choice of equipment VIOLATES fair chase, is unethical or is (as the Source has been caught saying) UNFAIR OR CHEATING. that is far worse than anything else since PETA uses this sort of stuff to divide and pick off various forms of hunting


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> The Gov is transfering me this summer so the intelligent life will be leaving.
> 
> They passed that because the damn hogs are eating everything and they need anyone and everyone to start killing them.
> 
> Even so I aint gonna cry its legal so its legal. Do you agree with every law that is passed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keith



What, the prison there full?

Hogs? That is the best you have? There is too many hogs so, make crossbows legal for deer hunting? You make NO SENSE!  

There has been an average of one State per year that is making crossbows legal to deer hunt with. Not one single time has a State had to pull crossbows from hunters. 

It's a matter of choice, a matter of rights.


----------



## Bow1

*All you write is exactly*

BIG BOY what you have been doing to everyone on here. 

I know where the self esteem issues are trust me. 

Great white hunter, huh, I like that thanks. The head issues I think not the last three shrinks I went to told me I was fine, but the last one did warn me about people like you.

And I have never put any cross bow people down, you have to be a , well political stuff I don't want to even start. You take what I said------If I know you---- meaning my brother uncle, friend, and they choose to use a crossbow and its legal and during bow season, damn right I will rib them the same way I or them would rib anyone if they missed one, if they fell and did not get hurt, or taking a dump and the biggest dear ever walked up on them and they could not get to their weapon. But you in your vain attempts to belittle me and try to get someone else on you side, say I am making fun of all crossbow hunter in the world. Don't add up. And its the same way when one of my buddies (Strictly traditional) says to me while I am using my compound "when are you gonna take them training wheels off and really start hunting" I don't know but I think your the one that needs assistance.

Oh and then there is this cult thing. Cult would more fit into you and your crossbow, many more bowhunters than x-bowman. 

And no one needs to respect my opinion, If you come about things other than off the bat telling someone they are stupid, uneducated, they are cult members, self centered someone might respect yours. 

I simply say as many times before, crossbows are fine in my book, fair chase and all, don't care who uses them, just don't think they belong in archery season. I never called you a name, I may have made light that your views are not to bright, only in some slight retaliation of your constant ridicule of me and others who do not share your point of view. 


Keith


----------



## Bow1

*PROGERs*

It is a joke. OK 

And yes the prisons are full. Its FL not a joke.

Keith


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> .......and they choose to use a crossbow and its legal and during bow season, damn right I will rib them the same way I or them would rib anyone if they missed one..........
> Keith


I think that we should just start "ribbing" the "compound" since more deer are wounded and lost with a compound than any other weapon on the market.


----------



## Bow1

*Oh Mr. Jim*

I never said crossbows violate anything, take your time and go back and check. I said I DONT THINK THEY BELONG IN ARCHERY SEASON> 

I dont think it vilolates anything. More hunters thats fine, just not in ARCHERY SEASON> That is really alot to get pissed about huh. My little ignorant self, who is very uneducated to have an opinion.

Keith


----------



## Bow1

*Bring it pal*

I dont see a compound in that pic. Really what does that prove, Compound shooters make up most of the people slinging arrows. And lets not get down that road of the people that slap a bow together the day before the opener shoot the bow once or twice and hit a milk jug and say they are good. I dont believe in that either, bad accuracy and ethics gets voted out before anything else in my book.

Keith


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> I simply say as many times before, crossbows are fine in my book, fair chase and all, don't care who uses them, just don't think they belong in archery season. I never called you a name, I may have made light that your views are not to bright, only in some slight retaliation of your constant ridicule of me and others who do not share your point of view.
> 
> 
> Keith



WHY should they NOT be used in archery season? 

If you are harvesting game with an ARROW then, you are an ARCHER and you should be permitted to hunt with one during ARCHERY SEASON.

Please, list your reason or reasons WHY it should NOT be permitted. I would love to hear your reasons.


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> I never said crossbows violate anything, take your time and go back and check. I said I DONT THINK THEY BELONG IN ARCHERY SEASON>
> 
> I dont think it vilolates anything. More hunters thats fine, just not in ARCHERY SEASON> That is really alot to get pissed about huh. My little ignorant self, who is very uneducated to have an opinion.
> 
> Keith


er I was referring to those who did-I don't recall mentioning your name. You are acting a bit guilty though. you just feel one way. I don't care. How you feel is neither convincing nor a rational reason to infringe or restrict what others want to do.

It isn't your season btw


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> I dont see a compound in that pic. Really what does that prove, Compound shooters make up most of the people slinging arrows. And lets not get down that road of the people that slap a bow together the day before the opener shoot the bow once or twice and hit a milk jug and say they are good. I dont believe in that either, bad accuracy and ethics gets voted out before anything else in my book.
> 
> Keith



Very good. Ethics is what FAIR CHASE is all about, not the weapon. I think that you have just made a great observation on the P&Y "Fair Chase" that they rewrote since they were not the ones who established the "Fair Chase Law" to begin with. 

Now Keith, do you know who actually wrote the "Fair Chase Law"?


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> WHY should they NOT be used in archery season?
> 
> If you are harvesting game with an ARROW then, you are an ARCHER and you should be permitted to hunt with one during ARCHERY SEASON.
> 
> Please, list your reason or reasons WHY it should NOT be permitted. I would love to hear your reasons.



there are the real reasons-1) they don't want to see someoe else shoot "their deer" and their self esteem issues

2) then there is the reasons they hide behind-all sorts of nonsense about too easy or not having to draw etc


----------



## progers

Thanks Jim but, I knew the answer. I just wanted to get his version on the story.  


I see Keith bailed when he didn't know the answer to who actually wrote the "Fair Chase Laws" that Pope&Young has so distastefully distorted.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> NOTHING IS MORE DESTRUCTIVE than some people claiming that another bowhunters' choice of equipment VIOLATES fair chase, is unethical or is (as the Source has been caught saying) UNFAIR OR CHEATING.


Hence the debate.

You are not "another bowhunter". You are just a crossbow hunter.

You want to ram your way with your crossbow into bowseason, where in the vast majority of the continent it is currently ILLEGAL for physically able people.

It is not a choice of equipment....it is ILLEGAL.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> I think that we should just start "ribbing" the "compound" since more deer are wounded and lost with a compound than any other weapon on the market.


 I wish i had a pic of the deer with a friggin bolts in it head dead on the side of the road after some horses rear end tried to shhot it in the head with a crossbow. it ran out onto the highway and was hit by a car. Looked really nice lying on the side of a major highway with flecthing sticking up in the air


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Hence the debate.
> 
> You are not "another bowhunter". You are just a crossbow hunter.
> 
> You want to ram your way with your crossbow into bowseason, where in the vast majority of the continent it is currently ILLEGAL for physically able people.
> 
> It is not a choice of equipment....it is ILLEGAL.


yawn-I hunt with all kinds of bows
every year your side loses another state or two
It appears that in a few years you will have almost no states
will you stop whining then?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I wish i had a pic of the deer with a friggin bolts in it head dead on the side of the road after some horses rear end tried to shhot it in the head with a crossbow. it ran out onto the highway and was hit by a car. Looked really nice lying on the side of a major highway with flecthing sticking up in the air



such comments-either the picture of that deer posted by a pro xbow person, or what you said -are not helpful. I doubt 95% of the people who saw either animal is really going to care how it was wounded-they will think BOW-and not make fine distinctions between xbow, compound or trad bow. All three types of BOWHUNTERS get tarnished by such a scenario

I do note that is funny seeing some of the xbow haters seem to suggest that they are against xbows because people are less likely to WOUND a deer with a crossbow-some of our anti xbow people seem to hate accuracy and since there are NO PROFICIENCY TESTS-they prefer people use a bow they are more likely to miss with

trust me-IF I were PETA, xbows are not where I would start in a jihad against bow hunting


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> such comments-either the picture of that deer posted by a pro xbow person, or what you said -are not helpful. I doubt 95% of the people who saw either animal is really going to care how it was wounded-they will think BOW-and not make fine distinctions between xbow, compound or trad bow. All three types of BOWHUNTERS get tarnished by such a scenario
> 
> I do note that is funny seeing some of the xbow haters seem to suggest that they are against xbows because people are less likely to WOUND a deer with a crossbow-some of our anti xbow people seem to hate accuracy and since there are NO PROFICIENCY TESTS-they prefer people use a bow they are more likely to miss with
> 
> trust me-IF I were PETA, xbows are not where I would start in a jihad against bow hunting



I agree with Jim on the picture thing. It is in bad taste and smells of an antihunter(wanted to clarify i am not calling progers and antihunter). All thats is added to the flame is more gas when you post pictures like that. I am a little dissapointed in progers...He seems passionate about hunting in our exchanges and I would think he would not be like that... i think he should apologize ( to everyone ) for posting that. It is in poor taste and i don't believe the discussion even went that way.


----------



## Free Range

> MOST PEOPLE, would 'get a clue" had they be banned as much as you from as many forums as you have OVER THIS EXACT THING......but not YOU........


As many, sounds like I’ve been banned on every forum I’ve been on. 



> YOU STILL have NOT learned, how to debate, without being "personal" and using "attacks".....so be it....


You make it sound like you don’t use personal attacks, really Ace you need to go back and read your own post, you know the ones that are full of words like elite, snob, greedy, selfish, cult, and my personal favorite, “I know where you post from” 



> *I* have challenged YOU and several others, to prove MY "other motives", since YOU and THEY seem to assume they exist.......as always YOU guys CAN NOT DO IT.......(because there is NONE)........


No one knows what is going on in that head of yours Ace, I think it might have something to do with a self hating complex, but I’m no shrink.



> YOU at EVERY turn, feel free to question MY data, and facts, all the while FAIL in a HUGE way to present ANY OF YOUR OWN......as do your three little "cronies"........period....


What is sad is that the facts have been clouded by your attacks, I offered to start over, and get this back on track. All I asked is you post up your facts, and prove the x-bow is good for bowhunting, you have done neither. And as for questioning your data, if it can’t stand up to being questioned then it must not be all that strong. 



> MOST HUNTERS(and I'd bet nationwide, MOST BOWHUNTERS) don't give a flying.......anything about P&Y........period.........NICE you don't want to accept that, but IF the numberr of bowhunters YOU guys say exist IN REALITY DO, AND CARE...........WHY are they NOT members supporting ........them.....???? INtersting concept isn't it........REALITY I mean


Opinion again Ace? I have facts backing up my statement that most bowhunter do give a flip about the P&Y club.



> Sooooooo..........all the while WE (the pro-inclusion side.......YOU know those of us, "horning in").......MAKE VALID CLAIMS...............AND ask that YOU guys(those opposed to crossbow inclusion......for YOUR own selfish, egotistical reasons)..........HAVE NOTHING to dispute even ONE fact............soooooooooo


No, you got it wrong again. You make a claim, we dispute it by pointing out how your facts are wrong, not relevant, or misleading. Then you go off on some tangent about how we are selfish, greedy, egotistical, or how we follow a cult, and all the BS. 



> IOW , who IS the minority on THIS issue? YOU GUYS ARE.......once YOU guys deal with that, perhaps WE can then have some kind of actual useful dialogue??? (though I doubt it.......as YOU GUYS.....are so long on division and short on unity) as YOU guys keep proving daily........"MY way OR NOTHING" that IS your ONLY stance.......AS is proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN......in ONLY 3 new threads.........


See here you go again, as bowhunters we are not the minority, proven by the very survey you like to point too so often, which Marvin did a great job finding and posting so we all can see what it really said instead of what you thought it said. 
Then since polling just bow hunters, which is as it should be, did not help your position, you have to use data from gun hunters to prove your position. Ace I have news for you this is about bowhunters, not brass haulers, bowhunters should be the main voice on what happens in bow season, not those that stand to gain without giving.


----------



## progers

What I find funny is how Pope & Young STOLE the "Fair Chase" law from Boone & Crockett and is redefining it to meet their standards. 

Theodore Roosevelt was the founder of Boone & Crockett and was the one that origionally wrote the "fair chase" law and it was written more than 117 years ago. At this time in history the compound bow did not exist. The only bows during this era was longbows, recurves and CROSSBOWS. 

If only P&Y had the same respect for ALL hunters the way that B&C has then we would not be having this conversation. P&Y tries to sway the public with a false definition of what a bow actually is and they do it in a way that is unethical. A part of ETHICS is to "show respect for all other hunters in the field and beyond" which apparently the anti-xbow peope do not do. So, as long as the anti-xbow "cult" continues to bash hunters because of their PREFERENCE in a TOOL TO HARVEST GAME then, they are proving their ethics to the world in a negative manner.

ETHICS and FAIR CHASE is in the person, not the weapon that has been deemed ethical to be used to harvest the game. Crossbows has been deemed ethical to harvest game in EVERY STATE of the United States of America. The sooner the anti-xbow crowd can except that, the quicker they can begin to heal their unethicalness against other hunters.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Thanks Jim but, I knew the answer. I just wanted to get his version on the story.
> 
> 
> I see Keith bailed when he didn't know the answer to who actually wrote the "Fair Chase Laws" that Pope&Young has so distastefully distorted.


 I beilieve you misunderstand a few things. Fair chase definition was written for hunting. pope and young make distinctions for bowhunting. there is a difference.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> I agree with Jim on the picture thing. It is in bad taste and smells of an antihunter(wanted to clarify i am not calling progers and antihunter). All thats is added to the flame is more gas when you post pictures like that. I am a little dissapointed in progers...He seems passionate about hunting in our exchanges and I would think he would not be like that... i think he should apologize ( to everyone ) for posting that. It is in poor taste and i don't believe the discussion even went that way.



What is in poor taste is that 70% of the "bowhunters" that I know complain about wounding and loosing deer EVERY year. 

I will NOT apologize for me wanting them to TIGHTEN up their game taking abilities! 

I understand that you will sometimes loose game. It happens. But when it happens year after year after year then it is time to find something else to do or another way to hunt. That is, if you have any ethics. 

Marvin, what you wrote when you quoted the picture I posted was in FAR WORSE TASTE than what I put. In either case it is sad and ALL hunters should do their best to ensure a quick and clean kill.

You know you will NOT get any apologies from me.


----------



## twogun

progers said:


> Thanks Jim but, I knew the answer. I just wanted to get his version on the story.
> 
> 
> I see Keith bailed when he didn't know the answer to who actually wrote the "Fair Chase Laws" that Pope&Young has so distastefully distorted.



P&Y does *not* consider the legal use of crossbows during archery season a violation of "Fair Chase"


The wounding issue usually doesn't enter this debate. The opening is always there; however, most realize that that issue would be harmful to all of us as hunters, so we stay away from it. It's a shame that the anti-crossbow crowd regularly takes the "low road" and either doesn't realize or care that the tactics they employ are potentially damaging to the entire sport.


----------



## progers

Also, P&Y writes the rules of what is "exceptable" for a "hunting bow" and if you notice, that will not include youths with their youth bows. So, if a youth with a bow under 30" or an arrow under 20" takes a P&Y class buck then, they, by definition, find that youth unethical in their distorted version of "fair chase".

And you still support P&Y?


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> What is in poor taste is that 70% of the "bowhunters" that I know complain about wounding and loosing deer EVERY year.
> 
> I will NOT apologize for me wanting them to TIGHTEN up their game taking abilities!
> 
> I understand that you will sometimes loose game. It happens. But when it happens year after year after year then it is time to find something else to do or another way to hunt. That is, if you have any ethics.
> 
> Marvin, what you wrote when you quoted the picture I posted was in FAR WORSE TASTE than what I put. In either case it is sad and ALL hunters should do their best to ensure a quick and clean kill.
> 
> You know you will NOT get any apologies from me.



Are you actually serious? please explain how mine was in "more" poor taste and yours wasn't. because I am anti xbow? 70%? I question that HIGHLY! The crossbow fixes that problem then? is that what yoru saying?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> I agree with Jim on the picture thing. It is in bad taste and smells of an antihunter(wanted to clarify i am not calling progers and antihunter). All thats is added to the flame is more gas when you post pictures like that. I am a little dissapointed in progers...He seems passionate about hunting in our exchanges and I would think he would not be like that... i think he should apologize ( to everyone ) for posting that. It is in poor taste and i don't believe the discussion even went that way.


Now, not that I agree with the picture being posted, That aside 1 picture as apposed to thousands of negative posts about other hunters has already built the bridge for the anti side to invade. Now with that picture you feel an apology is necessary, GRIP a little tighter. As bowhunters that don't want their precious name tarnished in the publics eye you have no standing asking for an apology until you are willing to apologize to all hunter for contributing to the division and belittling another persons desire to hunt with something different than what you do. How many threads have the words Ethics, Fair chase and them being violated by the xbow are out there? As you rally for support from all hunters against 1 picture poster you will not get mine. The picture is what it is and you wishing that you had 1 worse about xbows only shows your personal desire to make things worse for all


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> P&Y does *not* consider the legal use of crossbows during archery season a violation of "Fair Chase"
> 
> 
> The wounding issue usually doesn't enter this debate. The opening is always there; however, most realize that that issue would be harmful to all of us as hunters, so we stay away from it. It's a shame that the anti-crossbow crowd regularly takes the "low road" and either doesn't realize or care that the tactics they employ are potentially damaging to the entire sport.


Nice try twogun. It was brought up by YOUR side. Sad to see you take the low raod and lie.


----------



## progers

twogun said:


> P&Y does *not* consider the legal use of crossbows during archery season a violation of "Fair Chase"


Then why have they dedicated themselves to fight crossbow hunting in all States including the ones that have made crossbow legal for archery season as long as compounds have been around? They also fight to keep it out of gun season as well. Whats up with that?


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Now, not that I agree with the picture being posted, That aside 1 picture as apposed to thousands of negative posts about other hunters has already built the bridge for the anti side to invade. Now with that picture you feel an apology is necessary, GRIP a little tighter. As bowhunters that don't want their precious name tarnished in the publics eye you have no standing asking for an apology until you are willing to apologize to all hunter for contributing to the division and belittling another persons desire to hunt with something different than what you do. How many threads have the words Ethics, Fair chase and them being violated by the xbow are out there? As you rally for support from all hunters against 1 picture poster you will not get mine. The picture is what it is and you wishing that you had 1 worse about xbows only shows your personal desire to make things worse for all


how is that the same? I thought you wanted in our boat? Do you you have any idea WHY i didn't take a picture of that deer? No not that you woudl care either... Have you shot a crossbow?


----------



## Free Range

> If only P&Y had the same respect for ALL hunters the way that B&C has then we would not be having this conversation. P&Y tries to sway the public with a false definition of what a bow actually is and they do it in a way that is unethical. A part of ETHICS is to "show respect for all other hunters in the field and beyond" which apparently the anti-xbow peope do not do. So, as long as the anti-xbow "cult" continues to bash hunters because of their PREFERENCE in a TOOL TO HARVEST GAME then, they are proving their ethics to the world in a negative manner.


Obviously another, one season any weapon guy here. Where is the respect from the x-bow camp? If they indeed had respect for their fellow hunter then they wouldn’t be horning on another’s season. 

The P&Y club stole the fair chase rules? Please, I assume you have more intelligence then this. That is like saying the USA stole the idea of freedom from the Bible. A truth is a truth no matter who said it first. Fair chase is just that, fair, and for the P&Y club in incorporate what the B&C club started is not stealing. 
For you guys that don’t really bow hunt (and it appears there are many here) let me clue you in, it’s bow hunting, the means and methods are different then gun hunting. Thus the P&Y club defined fair chase and means and methods for bow hunting, not gun hunting or even x-bow hunting, for that matter blow gun hunting is not cover within their club either. They did this with a consensus of bow hunters at the time, and have made changes and refinements over the years. 

Respect?? Funny coming from the group that is showing the ultimate in disrespect.


----------



## Bow1

*Well let see I did not bail on anything*

I went to bed, laughing I might add. 

I am speaking for me and me only. I never said nor do I think x-bows are not fair chase, (so I don't give a crap who wrote it or what any club says about it, I know the rules, and abide by them) nor did I stab at anyone who uses them, I stabbed back from being attacked by you and you and you and whoever else decided to crack in on my opinion. 

The closest thing that one of you on here tried to twist around was where I said,


> You take what I said------If I know you---- meaning my brother, uncle, friend, and they choose to use a crossbow and its legal and during bow season, damn right I will rib them the same way I or them would rib anyone if they missed one, if they fell and did not get hurt, or taking a dump and the biggest dear ever walked up on them and they could not get to their weapon. But you in your vain attempts to belittle me and try to get someone else on you side, say I am making fun of all crossbow hunter in the world. Don't add up. And its the same way when one of my buddies (Strictly traditional) says to me while I am using my compound "when are you gonna take them training wheels off and really start hunting" I don't know but I think your the one that needs assistance.


You can bet they will be ribbing me back, its tradition, its fun, its bonding and spending time with friends and family in the woods. Doing something we love.

I first said that I do not think any animal killed with a x-bow should be allowed to be entered into P&Y. I later said I dont believe crossbows belong in archery season. Of course every one reads that and decides that I am anti cross bow, and everything else but just a person who has an opinion. Some of you claim your educated, and I dont see how one could claim that. I did not disrespect any of your opinions, untill you lashed out at my opinion. That is the mark of a very educated person I suppose?????? Not being able to respect anothers opinion. 

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Obviously another, one season any weapon guy here. Where is the respect from the x-bow camp? If they indeed had respect for their fellow hunter then they wouldn’t be horning on another’s season.
> 
> Respect?? Funny coming from the group that is showing the ultimate in disrespect.



what trollop. ARchery hunters got their own season-compound hunters lobbied to get in. You hypocrites whine about crossbows doing exactly what you all did

ITS NOT YOUR SEASON-it belongs to the pubilc at large and you again sound like some white guy whining about blacks wanting the same civil rights "whites created"

this sort of nonsense makes me want to PUKEukey: ukey:


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> I went to bed, laughing I might add.
> 
> I am speaking for me and me only. I never said nor do I think x-bows are not fair chase, (so I don't give a crap who wrote it or what any club says about it, I know the rules, and abide by them) nor did I stab at anyone who uses them, I stabbed back from being attacked by you and you and you and whoever else decided to crack in on my opinion.
> 
> The closest thing that one of you on here tried to twist around was where I said,
> 
> You can bet they will be ribbing me back, its tradition, its fun, its bonding and spending time with friends and family in the woods. Doing something we love.
> 
> I first said that I do not think any animal killed with a x-bow should be allowed to be entered into P&Y. I later said I dont believe crossbows belong in archery season. Of course every one reads that and decides that I am anti cross bow, and everything else but just a person who has an opinion. Some of you claim your educated, and I dont see how one could claim that. I did not disrespect any of your opinions, untill you lashed out at my opinion. That is the mark of a very educated person I suppose?????? Not being able to respect anothers opinion.
> 
> Keith



If picking on a cripple kid that hunts with an x-bow is fun in your eyes then, you need to improve your moral values. You are not a man by any means. 

I hunt with a compound and I have never hunted with an x-bow. However, I support ALL x-bow hunters in any and all seasons as long as the hunter is an ethical person.


----------



## twogun

Marvin,

I'm well aware of who brought up the wounding issue. That issue is always available but the pro-crossbow side doesn't usually bring it up even though the anti-crossbow group regularly takes the "low road" calling ethical sprotsman cheaters, lazy slobs, and unethical violators of "Fair Chase".

Now put your water wings back on and go back to the shaoolw end of the pool. You're getting in over your head again.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> how is that the same? I thought you wanted in our boat? Do you you have any idea WHY i didn't take a picture of that deer? No not that you woudl care either... Have you shot a crossbow?


Yes I have shot 1 many many times even was able to harvest 1 deer with it..During the La x-bow debate I was curious as to the magic that so many elude to, so I bought 1. Shot it many afternoons then hunted many mornings and evenings for some reason it just didn't work like antis suggested. Finally, the day came and I was able to take a nice buck. The funniest thing, it did not lure them any closer 32yds..Even funnier I would rather had taken the shot with my EDGE. I wanted to know for myself what all the hoopla was about and they ain't what ya'll think they are..Now I will ask how many of you have been willing to do the same?


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> If picking on a cripple kid that hunts with an x-bow is fun in your eyes then, you need to improve your moral values. You are not a man by any means.
> 
> I hunt with a compound and I have never hunted with an x-bow. However, I support ALL x-bow hunters in any and all seasons as long as the hunter is an ethical person.


 cripple kid?  he's talking about HIS friends... read the whole thread before responding please...


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> cripple kid?  he's talking about HIS friends... read the whole thread before responding please...


Marvin, I recall him saying his brother was handicapped and used a crossbow and he admitted that he ribbed him for using one. Maybe you should read before responding, PLEASE!


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Yes I have shot 1 many many times even was able to harvest 1 deer with it..During the La x-bow debate I was curious as to the magic that so many elude to, so I bought 1. Shot it many afternoons then hunted many mornings and evenings for some reason it just didn't work like antis suggested. Finally, the day came and I was able to take a nice buck. The funniest thing, it did not lure them any closer 32yds..Even funnier I would rather had taken the shot with my EDGE. I wanted to know for myself what all the hoopla was about and they ain't what ya'll think they are..Now I will ask how many of you have been willing to do the same?


I killed my first 5 deer with one... Hhhmmmm I started hunting with one. till i was 17. hhhmmmmm....gosh that makes me what? experienced? I can shoot my dads crossbow out to 50 yards well within a pie plate. hhhmmmmm I struggle with back tension using the crossbow though. I do not seem to torque my grip that much with the crossbow since it is prop rest my arms on my legs in my stand. hhhmmmm i don't have to bend at the waist or worry about teh string hitting any clothing since I shoot it like a gun. I have a hard time putting my safety on my compound and stick bow.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Marvin, I recall him saying his brother was handicapped and used a crossbow and he admitted that he ribbed him for using one. Maybe you should read before responding, PLEASE!


Then you should have said his crippled brother.....Not kid. Makes him look like he is beating up on the defenseless. Not good spin I doubt your qualified to tell him how he is supposed to treat his brother.


----------



## twogun

progers said:


> Then why have they dedicated themselves to fight crossbow hunting in all States including the ones that have made crossbow legal for archery season as long as compounds have been around? They also fight to keep it out of gun season as well. Whats up with that?


They view the crossbow as "the biggest threat to bowhunting." They have not defined that "threat" as far as I know, nor has anyone else.


----------



## Bow1

*WOW was that ridicules.*

That is very big of you? You should go back and read this whole thing. 

I never said anything about picking on anyone I did not know (or any one handicapped) and its something in our camp. Again jumping to extremes, I don't even think JimC would have got that out of what I said. I am the first to tell you that I support any handicapped person using a crossbow or someone who just does not have the strength to pull back the required poundage to bow hunt IN ANY SEASON. Picking on someone with a handicap, is something that I would take offense to and you really need to watch what your saying. My moral values, norms and beliefs are beyond reproach. For you to write what you did is unbelievable, you have stepped way down to a very low level, and again your attacking me on my opinion. 

I do plenty in my community for sick and unfortunate children, I know first hand, my son at 18 months old battled cancer and now at 4 has won. I know all to well and real, the misfortunes that some kids are stuck with, my wife and I are very actively involved. Don't even go there.

Keith


----------



## Bow1

*And for the record*

my brother is not crippled, he has severe back injurys that limit his movement due to pins in his back and scar tissue from oh maybe four sugerys, and thus can not pull a bow back effectively. He is on disability. Oh he wants to, but the cross bow is what he is stuck with for now. I can tell the hunting and fishing gets to him but he keeps at it.

That nuckle head is out in the woods everyday either hunting or fishing. 

And he aint no kid, he is 33 years old, I also rib him about how he needs to lose about 50 pounds to. So what?

Keith


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> I killed my first 5 deer with one... Hhhmmmm I started hunting with one. till i was 17. hhhmmmmm....gosh that makes me what? experienced? I can shoot my dads crossbow out to 50 yards well within a pie plate. hhhmmmmm I struggle with back tension using the crossbow though. I do not seem to torque my grip that much with the crossbow since it is prop rest my arms on my legs in my stand. hhhmmmm i don't have to bend at the waist or worry about teh string hitting any clothing since I shoot it like a gun. I have a hard time putting my safety on my compound and stick bow.


I'm not going to say that I feel this is untrue but I do and was only posted to try to make yourself look versed on its use..Hitting a pie plate at 50 yds, well if you go back and refresh your memory it will not be the pie plate you shoot at while hunting. I practice 53yds with each of my bows and stay within a desert tin so it means what "NOTHING".


----------



## Marvin

Bow1 said:


> That is very big of you? You should go back and read this whole thing.
> 
> I never said anything about picking on anyone I did not know (or any one handicapped) and its something in our camp. Again jumping to extremes, I don't even think JimC would have got that out of what I said. I am the first to tell you that I support any handicapped person using a crossbow or someone who just does not have the strength to pull back the required poundage to bow hunt IN ANY SEASON. Picking on someone with a handicap, is something that I would take offense to and you really need to watch what your saying. My moral values, norms and beliefs are beyond reproach. For you to write what you did is unbelievable, you have stepped way down to a very low level, and again your attacking me on my opinion.
> 
> I do plenty in my community for sick and unfortunate children, I know first hand, my son at 18 months old battled cancer and now at 4 has won. I know all to well and real, the misfortunes that some kids are stuck with, my wife and I are very actively involved. Don't even go there.
> 
> Keith


Keith, I am sorry that you had to unfortunately bring your family into this debate to defend yourself. Hope your son continues to do well. I could never imagine that.


----------



## Bow1

*No big deal*

I am pround of my son he was a trooper through all the chemo, needle and so on. Now he goes to get a shot he is like no big deal and does not even make a smurk, my 10 year old screams bloody murder its pretty funny. My little trooper grew up fast during all that. Anyhow, thanks. He is fine and loves to go hunting with me, took him to the turkey blind once this year, and boy just loves the outdoors. We will be out on the bay tomorrow. 

Keith


----------



## Jim C

I am glad your son is doing well-I cannot think of anything worse than seeing a child deathly ill


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I'm not going to say that I feel this is untrue but I do and was only posted to try to make yourself look versed on its use..Hitting a pie plate at 50 yds, well if you go back and refresh your memory it will not be the pie plate you shoot at while hunting. I practice 53yds with each of my bows and stay within a desert tin so it means what "NOTHING".


 I'm in ohio, you, florida... i have nothing to prove to you. I have no proof you shoot a bow. prove you can hit a desert tin at 53. whats your point? I can do it with 5 out of five arrows out of the crossbow? If you shoot that good you should have some titles? post away... my desert tins are welll.....pie sized! you have once again proved your uselessness in this discussion. if I had a digiatl camera back when i killed those deer i would gladly post them up. But that was some time ago....


----------



## Marvin

*Keith*

I want you to know that the crossbow should be used for the exact reasons you stated. handicapped people or elderlyand young hunters. Now I understand that there are rules that make it very hard to get the permit. Those should be amended. Any others trying to justify using it are just greedy, jealous or lazy. I would accpet another explanation since it seems the compound is so easy to shoot now a days.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> I'm in ohio, you, florida... i have nothing to prove to you. I have no proof you shoot a bow. prove you can hit a desert tin at 53. whats your point? I can do it with 5 out of five arrows out of the crossbow? If you shoot that good you should have some titles? post away... my desert tins are welll.....pie sized! you have once again proved your uselessness in this discussion. if I had a digiatl camera back when i killed those deer i would gladly post them up. But that was some time ago....


I am amused that no matter what, you have an EXCUSE why you didn't or couldn't and if you would of had..I have nothing to prove to anyone much less you. My pics are posted. I do have a digital camera and rangefinder along with a digital watch that lights up in the dark


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I am amused that no matter what, you have an EXCUSE why you didn't or couldn't and if you would of had..I have nothing to prove to anyone much less you. My pics are posted. I do have a digital camera and rangefinder along with a digital watch that lights up in the dark


where? my pics are 20 some years old...Sorry you missed them....Sorry i don't waste my money on frivilous things. I had a watch once.......


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I want you to know that the crossbow should be used for the exact reasons you stated. handicapped people or elderlyand young hunters. Now I understand that there are rules that make it very hard to get the permit. Those should be amended. Any others trying to justify using it are just greedy, jealous or lazy. I would accpet another explanation since it seems the compound is so easy to shoot now a days.



Marvin, how is using a crossbow lazy while using a modern compound is not?

I still don't understand your jihad against crossbows-all we saw is your claim "Crossbows" don't add anything to bowhunting which is a claim that really has no relevance to me-the season is there for people to enjoy-most bowhunters add nothing but license fees anyway. I do far more for archery than the vast majority o f archers in OHio, I don't think I deserve special entitlements as a result


----------



## Bow1

*Thanks JimC*

It is difficult. We have been blessed. Many not so fortunate and until you have been there you got no clue. I sure did not, after over a year of hospitals you learn what is important, and how fortunate you are, when your son is being comforted by another child who is terminally ill. This kid was maybe 1 year older but had been in the hospital basically his whole life, when my son was had needles all in him and pulling this cart with all the monitors, trying to play, he just started crying and this kid comes up to him and puts his arm around him and says "its all right Gunnar", here play with me. This kid had brain cancer, spine cancer and so on, he knew the drill. It just moves you. That kid went to heaven about six months later. Kids are the best teachers in the world. They help each other and care for each other and look out for each other, there is no deceit in them. We all need to learn from them. 
Sorry back on track

Anyhow, I respect your opinion on x-bows, and I got no beef it they are legalized in every state. You know my opinion that is all. 

I can not see why anyone would want to use one as they are almost as loud as a rifle, and to me just odd to carry. 

I will tell you I would use one myself if I ever came to be where I could not use a regular bow. 

So you got to know I believe they are fairchase and that they have there use. It is just my opinion. 

I don't belong to any club that hates crossbows or anything like that. I don't hate them. I don't pursue anything that tries to ban them or anything. I just have my little opinion and that is it. 

Keith


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Marvin, how is using a crossbow lazy while using a modern compound is not?
> They are too lazy to take the time to learn to use a compound.
> I still don't understand your jihad against crossbows-all we saw is your claim "Crossbows" don't add anything to bowhunting which is a claim that really has no relevance to me-the season is there for people to enjoy-most bowhunters add nothing but license fees anyway. I do far more for archery than the vast majority o f archers in OHio, I don't think I deserve special entitlements as a result


 in red


----------



## Free Range

> what trollop. ARchery hunters got their own season-compound hunters lobbied to get in. You hypocrites whine about crossbows doing exactly what you all did
> 
> ITS NOT YOUR SEASON-it belongs to the pubilc at large and you again sound like some white guy whining about blacks wanting the same civil rights "whites created"
> 
> this sort of nonsense makes me want to PUKE



What makes me want to puke is people wanting to come in this country without having to play by our rules, kind of like x-bow people wanting to hunting in archery season without having to play by the rules. 
And in typical lawyer fashion you try to insinuate racism when you know you can’t win.


----------



## Jim C

Bow1 said:


> It is difficult. We have been blessed. Many not so fortunate and until you have been there you got no clue. I sure did not, after over a year of hospitals you learn what is important, and how fortunate you are, when your son is being comforted by another child who is terminally ill. This kid was maybe 1 year older but had been in the hospital basically his whole life, when my son was had needles all in him and pulling this cart with all the monitors, trying to play, he just started crying and this kid comes up to him and puts his arm around him and says "its all right Gunnar", here play with me. This kid had brain cancer, spine cancer and so on, he knew the drill. It just moves you. That kid went to heaven about six months later. Kids are the best teachers in the world. They help each other and care for each other and look out for each other, there is no deceit in them. We all need to learn from them.
> Sorry back on track
> 
> Anyhow, I respect your opinion on x-bows, and I got no beef it they are legalized in every state. You know my opinion that is all.
> 
> I can not see why anyone would want to use one as they are almost as loud as a rifle, and to me just odd to carry.
> 
> I will tell you I would use one myself if I ever came to be where I could not use a regular bow.
> 
> So you got to know I believe they are fairchase and that they have there use. It is just my opinion.
> 
> I don't belong to any club that hates crossbows or anything like that. I don't hate them. I don't pursue anything that tries to ban them or anything. I just have my little opinion and that is it.
> 
> Keith



my son was born with a severe cleft palate and lip-nothing like cancer but still 6 surgeries including one at less than three months to basically create a nostril that didn't exist. my dad died of cancer a month ago-he was a cigar smoker which makes it a bit different than a child who did nothing to cause it but it still sucks-and my mother in law who I really liked got a brain tumor that killed her three years ago. in the grand scheme of things, archery really takes a second chair to more important things

I like all kinds of archery. I spend at least 10 hours a week coaching or managing youth archery programs. I financed a public range and now a private one mainly to promote youth archery. i just can't see why one type of archer is any better or more deserving than another


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> What makes me want to puke is people wanting to come in this country without having to play by our rules, kind of like x-bow people wanting to hunting in archery season without having to play by the rules.
> And in typical lawyer fashion you try to insinuate racism when you know you can’t win.



what you don't get is that trad archers LOBBIED to CHANGE THE RULES for their own benefit

THEN COMPOUND ARCHERS lobbied to CHANGE THE RULES for their own benefit as did those who wanted to use mechanical broadheads and releases

YET YOU ALL WHINE ABOUT CROSSBOWS doing the same thing

AS I SAID, if archery was forced to play under the rules you bigots want to impose on crossbows THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN AN ARCHERY SEASON AND THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN compound hunting

YOur selfishness is exceeded only by your seething hypocrisy


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> in red



and compound archers are too lazy to shoot a recurve and recurve archers are too lazy to shoot a self bow

what is the point-why do you care and why should you base hunting rights on work ethic given plenty of trads don't practice any more than crossbow archers (and don't say this isn't true-I spent almost ten years at a range 5-6 days a week)


----------



## cynic

Real Name:
Peter Pan 
Biography:
Where do i start...... 
Location:
at my house 
Interests:
archery, hassarshing intolerant people 
Occupation:
Federal litigator( hahahah) and Resident Guru 

Why do you hide? Are you afraid that people will know who you really are and see you for what you really are?


----------



## Bow1

*JimC*

Sorry to hear of your trouble and losses. I tell you that cancer is the devil. It is the meanest nastiest thing there is. And any thing with a kid is just terrible, at least with an adult they have had a chance to live some of their life, some of these kids get none. 

I dont think I am any better than any othe archer, other than a few like Spectre, hum wait he beat me last time out. No really I dont. I just think cross bows are different that is all. I do not believe anyone that shoots a x-bow is better or worse than me. To each their own. Again Jim it is just how I feel about them in Archery Season. Nothing more. 

Again, all of us have a common bond and its the outdoors, and hunting, family friends and introducing our young to the outdoors. Just becasue I dont think x-bows should be included in archery season, does not in anyway mean that I think I am better than anyone or that x-bow hunters are idiots, and so on. All areas of hunting we have idiots, cant help that. From people shooting recurves, compounds, x-bows, rifles, pistols and so on. There is allways one that makes us "Hunters and Outdoorman" look bad. 

I think you will find you and I have a lot imore in common than you think. 

Keith


----------



## Jim C

Spectre's a good guy-though I haven't met him personally I consider him a good friend

Later Kevin


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Real Name:
> Peter Pan
> Biography:
> Where do i start......
> Location:
> at my house
> Interests:
> archery, hassarshing intolerant people
> Occupation:
> Federal litigator( hahahah) and Resident Guru
> 
> Why do you hide? Are you afraid that people will know who you really are and see you for what you really are?




February 11th, 1962
Age:
44
What type of archery are you into?:
First Response Anger Management Team
Real Name:
D. Burns
Location:
Florida

Why do you hide??


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> and compound archers are too lazy to shoot a recurve and recurve archers are too lazy to shoot a self bow
> 
> what is the point-why do you care and why should you base hunting rights on work ethic given plenty of trads don't practice any more than crossbow archers (and don't say this isn't true-I spent almost ten years at a range 5-6 days a week)


 its about the rules already in place not this lineage to a selfbow. 99% of the trads I know don't practice at ranges. they shoot in their back yard and go stumpin. A range is useless to them because they shoot with instincts. known yardage mess's with them. we have been down that road about them being the same and the crossbow bringing new users etc... Doubt we would find a different path this time Jim.


----------



## progers

Bow1 said:


> I can not see why anyone would want to use one as they are almost as loud as a rifle, and to me just odd to carry.
> 
> Keith


Doesn't sound much like an advantage over a compound to me!  


I would also like to say that it is great to hear that your son is well. It is so sad to see children deathly ill. A good friend of mine just lost his son to cancer last year at St. Judes. He was the age of your son. 


As yall can see, we all have so much in common. The only ground that we do not share is our views on the x-bow. What is it going to take to make common ground for all hunters? That is something that needs to happen.

So, do we put xbows in archery season or should xbows have their own season and compounds not be allowed during that time? It would only be fair.

Keith, this is nothing personal against you. This debate has been going on for years and years and to tell you the truth, the compound hunters were what turned me against their views by thinking that they are "better" than other hunters. Not saying you said that but, it was said here on another debate in those exact words.

This makes about as much sense as an open sight rifle hunter attacking a scoped rifle hunter because he thinks that it is more of an advantage to use a scope. There are pro's and con's with all weapons of choice. And that is all it is, a CHOICE. The main thing is that we are all united in the world of hunting and outdoorsmanship. I think that some have lost sight of that over time.


----------



## Free Range

> As yall can see, we all have so much in common. The only ground that we do not share is our views on the x-bow. What is it going to take to make common ground for all hunters? That is something that needs to happen.


Good question, we know compromise don’t work, (see KY) so I guess in the x-bow guys eyes the only way it will happen is when the x-bow is allowed in all of archery season in all states.


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Good question, we know compromise don’t work, (see KY) so I guess in the x-bow guys eyes the only way it will happen is when the x-bow is allowed in all of archery season in all states.



and in the anti-xbow guys eyes the only way it will happen is when the x-bow is completely banned in all seasons.


It should be a right to choose your weapon and it be your own BUSINESS! :cocktail:


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> and in the anti-xbow guys eyes the only way it will happen is when the x-bow is completely banned in all seasons.
> 
> 
> It should be a right to choose your weapon and it be your own BUSINESS! :cocktail:


are you advocating not following the game laws? that would not be fair chase. You can almost choose any weapon you want. just do it in its season.


----------



## Free Range

> and in the anti-xbow guys eyes the only way it will happen is when the x-bow is completely banned in all seasons.


Nope wrong again, I believe everyone of the pro-bowhunting guys posting here have repeatedly said we are not against the x-bow, just not in archery season. You know that, and so does everyone else here, so to post the above is completely miss representing what we have posted. There is a stronger word, but I’m trying to make Ace happy and be as nice as I can. 



> It should be a right to choose your weapon and it be your own BUSINESS!


And the only way to achieve that is to open hunting season up to all weapons during one season, is that what you want? We already know Ace is ok with that concept, are you?


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Nope wrong again, I believe everyone of the pro-bowhunting guys posting here have repeatedly said we are not against the x-bow, just not in archery season. You know that, and so does everyone else here, so to post the above is completely miss representing what we have posted. There is a stronger word, but I’m trying to make Ace happy and be as nice as I can.
> 
> 
> 
> And the only way to achieve that is to open hunting season up to all weapons during one season, is that what you want? We already know Ace is ok with that concept, are you?


You are lying again- no one who advocates crossbows wants firearms in them

you all play idiotic games by claiming a crossbow is not archery equipment

all your whining does is divide bowhunters and cause the xbow guys to dislike elitists like you

we are going to win-the only question is win-hopefully by that time we still have an archery season

I know a few xbow guys who think trad stuff ought to be banned due to the public perception of wounding and a lack of accuracy. Fortunately, the xbow guys tend to be more tolerant of the flingers than the flingers are of them

Marvin-Sorry-I have shot too many 3D events to believe that all the trads actually practice-many have pathetic shooting skills. Many of them are compound guys who developed bad habits, target panic or flinching and went to trads where such obvious (to compound archers) flaws are easily concealed.


----------



## Free Range

> You are lying again- no one who advocates crossbows wants firearms in them


So it’s let you in, but shut the door behind you? I see it’s only elitist when I do it but when you advocate the same thing it’s ok?? Nice logic there Jim.



> you all play idiotic games by claiming a crossbow is not archery equipment


Not archery equipment for use in bow season, Jim. And by the way most states agree with me, and so do most bow hunters.



> I know a few xbow guys who think trad stuff ought to be banned due to the public perception of wounding and a lack of accuracy. Fortunately, the xbow guys tend to be more tolerant of the flingers than the flingers are of them


Good for you, I know a few people that think all lawyers are snakes, I don’t agree with them either. 



> Marvin-Sorry-I have shot too many 3D events to believe that all the trads actually practice-many have pathetic shooting skills. Many of them are compound guys who developed bad habits, target panic or flinching and went to trads where such obvious (to compound archers) flaws are easily concealed.


Poor shooting is poor shooting no matter what weapon you have. You need to get out more, what you have just described I have seen with all types of weapons. And I have seen trad guys make compound shooters look like fools too, it means nothing. Every x-bow shooter I know switched to the x-bow because they had pathetic bow shooting skills, they switched to the x-bow where flaws are even more easily concealed. LOL

Jim did someone call you here to see if you could get this thread locked with your insults and attacks?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> You are lying again- no one who advocates crossbows wants firearms in them
> 
> you all play idiotic games by claiming a crossbow is not archery equipment
> 
> all your whining does is divide bowhunters and cause the xbow guys to dislike elitists like you
> 
> we are going to win-the only question is win-hopefully by that time we still have an archery season
> 
> I know a few xbow guys who think trad stuff ought to be banned due to the public perception of wounding and a lack of accuracy. Fortunately, the xbow guys tend to be more tolerant of the flingers than the flingers are of them
> 
> Marvin-Sorry-I have shot too many 3D events to believe that all the trads actually practice-many have pathetic shooting skills. Many of them are compound guys who developed bad habits, target panic or flinching and went to trads where such obvious (to compound archers) flaws are easily concealed.


Jim, we will have to agree to disagree. All xbowers I know shot about 3 arrows just before the season starts. I have personally Shot beside Ken redding and he can put many compounders to shame with his 21st century longbow. He opened my eyes for sure. At least they are at the shoot practicing..:tongue:


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> You are lying again- no one who advocates crossbows wants firearms in them


THAT is the lie. I've seen more than a few who think it should be one season, any weapon. Even your staunch supporter, Willie, has posted that he is not opposed to MZ in archery season.



Jim C said:


> you all play idiotic games by claiming a crossbow is not archery equipment


Free Range said it all. WAY more states and provinces disagree with you than agree. Even KY doesn't classify it as archery equipment. It doesn't belong. Just because you like them is not reason enough to classify them as archery equipment and entitle them to bow season.



Jim C said:


> all your whining does is divide bowhunters and cause the xbow guys to dislike elitists like you


LOL. All your side'sbellyaching and insults do is steel the resolve of bowhunters not to allow people of such questionable character into bowseason. LOL.

Remember - you're not bowhunters. Your crossbow hunters.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim, we will have to agree to disagree. All xbowers I know shot about 3 arrows just before the season starts. I have personally Shot beside Ken Manning and he can put many compounders to shame with his 21st century longbow. He opened my eyes for sure. At least they are at the shoot practicing..:tongue:



and Darrell Pace could hit a pop can at 100 yards most of the time with a recurve but that doesn't prove much. All Xbowers? the real issue is CAN THE PERSON SHOOT THE BOW WELL ENOUGH TO ETHICALLY take game. There is no requirement that you can when you get your license

I FIND IT INTERESTING that you people think its bad for a guy to use an accurate weapon but think its ok for people to hunt with something they might not be accurate with

I know what the reason is-ANTI XBOW types WANT NO MORE HUNTERS IN THEIR WOODS--they realize that eithical people are LESS LIKELY to hunt with a compound bow than a crossbow if those people HAVE TIME CONSTRAINTS

you all want to INCREASE the time cost in hunting and we both agree IF you ban xbows AND IF PEOPLE ARE ETHICAL then those with time constraints won't bow hunt

I WANT MORE PEOPLE bow hunting for political reasons. YOU ALL WANT LESS for SELFISH reasons

lets debate that rather than these STUPID claims about xbows not being bows and so forth


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> THAT is the lie. I've seen more than a few who think it should be one season, any weapon. Even your staunch supporter, Willie, has posted that he is not opposed to MZ in archery season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Free Range said it all. WAY more states and provinces disagree with you than agree. Even KY doesn't classify it as archery equipment. It doesn't belong. Just because you like them is not reason enough to classify them as archery equipment and entitle them to bow season.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. All your side'sbellyaching and insults do is steel the resolve of bowhunters not to allow people of such questionable character into bowseason. LOL.
> 
> Remember - you're not bowhunters. Your crossbow hunters.


You don't have the standing in the archery community to label anyone else with any credibility. You are also a bald faced liar-prove that most crossbow hunters want guns in archery season

You are the person with a questionable character-trust me, most of the posters as well as three of the mods think your obsession on this issue is clearly pathological source


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> You don't have the standing in the archery community to label anyone else with any credibility. You are also a bald faced liar-prove that most crossbow hunters want guns in archery season


LOL. Is this a joke? 

First you say:


Jim C said:


> You are lying again- *no one who advocates crossbows *wants firearms in them


then you say:


Jim C said:


> prove that most crossbow hunters want guns in archery season


Pathetic.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL. Is this a joke?
> 
> First you say:
> 
> 
> then you say:
> 
> 
> Pathetic.



OK source-find someone here who advocates (as opposed to not fighting against or accepting) firearms in the bow season


I still wonder what causes your OCD on this issue1800 posts almost all whining about crossbows

you still haven't told us how you are hurt by what someone else uses and all we get is sophistry such as claiming xbows aren't bows

the pro xbow groups ought to copy all your posts and distribute them to game commissions to show the mentality of the anti xbow conspiracy


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> and Darrell Pace could hit a pop can at 100 yards most of the time with a recurve but that doesn't prove much. All Xbowers? the real issue is CAN THE PERSON SHOOT THE BOW WELL ENOUGH TO ETHICALLY take game. There is no requirement that you can when you get your license
> 
> I FIND IT INTERESTING that you people think its bad for a guy to use an accurate weapon but think its ok for people to hunt with something they might not be accurate with
> 
> No, what i am worried about is someone who is not a "good shot" using a weapon that is clearly not a archery weapon or needs no archery skill to extend their natural range. Not Fair chase
> 
> I know what the reason is-ANTI XBOW types WANT NO MORE HUNTERS IN THEIR WOODS--they realize that eithical people are LESS LIKELY to hunt with a compound bow than a crossbow if those people HAVE TIME CONSTRAINTS
> 
> Time constraints? we all have time constraints. welcome to life. get over it and set some time aside or accept the consequences. I am very busy but i MAKE TIME to do what I need to do. Time constraints might limit someone to only being able to shoot 25 yards instead of 40. Possibly not Fair chase?
> 
> you all want to INCREASE the time cost in hunting and we both agree IF you ban xbows AND IF PEOPLE ARE ETHICAL then those with time constraints won't bow hunt
> 
> nope I want people to pick up a bow and join us.
> 
> I WANT MORE PEOPLE bow hunting for political reasons. YOU ALL WANT LESS for SELFISH reasons
> 
> If preserving archery is selfish than yes I am.
> 
> lets debate that rather than these STUPID claims about xbows not being bows and so forth


Jim I tried to give you an honest aswer on your bullet points.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> OK source-find someone here who advocates (as opposed to not fighting against or accepting) firearms in the bow season
> 
> 
> I still wonder what causes your OCD on this issue1800 posts almost all whining about crossbows
> 
> you still haven't told us how you are hurt by what someone else uses and all we get is sophistry such as claiming xbows aren't bows
> 
> the pro xbow groups ought to copy all your posts and distribute them to game commissions to show the mentality of the anti xbow conspiracy


actually Jim ace was pretty clear he wants any and all options open if the resource will support it.

here is the quote for ace

"It's better for everyone, let others hunt as they wish, and you do the same, NOT so complicated, so long as one doesn't mind sharing a little bit"

Post 388 in the primative thread


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> the pro xbow groups ought to copy all your posts and distribute them to game commissions to show the mentality of the anti xbow conspiracy


Except that I have no problems with stringguns - in their own season. What the heck, I'm feeling charitable....you can have them in gun and MZ season, too.:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim I tried to give you an honest aswer on your bullet points.



well marvin I guess we will never agree-I don't believe in imposing constraints that have no use to society on free people-you do. You cannot prove that society is harmed by the introduction of crossbows-you have a sense that people should have to pay certain dues to hunt

I do not when it comes to the equpment and I note that we cannot prove anyone who buys a license has practiced

what is a crossbow unfair to-and the range thing is nonsense-you know it, I know it and I can prove it with scores from IBO and other target events. IBO crossbow stakes are SHORTER than compound stakes


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Except that I have no problems with stringguns - in their own season. What the heck, I'm feeling charitable....you can have them in gun and MZ season, too.:darkbeer:


Source-you don't have the standing to tell anyone what they should use. I would disqualify you from owning a weapon if I could-your posts give me great concern over your stability


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you all want to INCREASE the time cost in hunting and we both agree IF you ban xbows AND IF PEOPLE ARE ETHICAL then those with time constraints won't bow hunt


I call bullcrap.

Everyone has time constraints. People must set priorities. Worst case is you won't hunt, more likely is that you limit your range when you can hunt.

I find it ironic when you use this concept of time constraints as an excuse to downgrade to an xbow. If people are too busy practice, they must be too busy to hunt...with anything.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> well marvin I guess we will never agree-I don't believe in imposing constraints that have no use to society on free people-you do. You cannot prove that society is harmed by the introduction of crossbows-you have a sense that people should have to pay certain dues to hunt
> 
> I do not when it comes to the equpment and I note that we cannot prove anyone who buys a license has practiced


 Jim I see no where in any of my posts did I ask anyone to "pay" anything. Everything I have stated should be the done if we are to preserve our sport ( recreation for you) . If not, we will be deemed incompetent and not worthy of the non hunting publics positive perception that we care about out sport(recreation for you) or our quarry. I know of no person that cannot make 10 minutes a day to shoot their bow. to say others wise is lying.


----------



## Marvin

thesource said:


> I call bullcrap.
> 
> Everyone has time constraints. People must set priorities. Worst case is you won't hunt, more likely is that you limit your range when you can hunt.
> 
> I find it ironic when you use this concept of time constraints as an excuse to downgrade to an xbow. If people are too busy practice, they must be too busy to hunt...with anything.


another good point for the source man.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Source-you don't have the standing to tell anyone what they should use. I would disqualify you from owning a weapon if I could-your posts give me great concern over your stability


As always, that means ..... grrr, you got me again source! LOL.:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I call bullcrap.
> 
> Everyone has time constraints. People must set priorities. Worst case is you won't hunt, more likely is that you limit your range when you can hunt.
> 
> I find it ironic when you use this concept of time constraints as an excuse to downgrade to an xbow. If people are too busy practice, they must be too busy to hunt...with anything.



Sorry source-I find your cult to be disgusting. I want more people hunting, I want those who hunt to cleanly kill the animals they shoot at. I reject your religion, your creed and your OCD. You have not done anything that indicates you help archery. You don't have the moral standing nor the credentials to tell me or others what to use. When xbows are legalized, you won't even have that argument. You will have nothing to live for-you will be an empty shell because your life revolves around trying to enforce a false sense of superiority over other hunters. It will be fun to watch:wink:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> another good point for the source man.



nope-when mechanical releases and 80% letoff came along that argument-which I never found persuasive to begin with-completely evaporated

let me ask you a question Marvin

do you think archery season got a long season because of 

1) a time requirement to master a bow

2) or the predicted harvest rate and impact on the herd


I suspect you understand legislative history

I know the legislative history


----------



## Free Range

3) All of the above and more


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Sorry source-I find your cult to be disgusting. I want more people hunting, I want those who hunt to cleanly kill the animals they shoot at. I reject your religion, your creed and your OCD. You have not done anything that indicates you help archery. You don't have the moral standing nor the credentials to tell me or others what to use. When xbows are legalized, you won't even have that argument. You will have nothing to live for-you will be an empty shell because your life revolves around trying to enforce a false sense of superiority over other hunters. It will be fun to watch:wink:


Its not about superiority, Jim (although I suggest you look in a mirror before accusing others having a false sense of it.)

Its about bowhunting.

Do me a favor. Hold your breath while we wait for xbow legalization nationwide - let's see how you do. LOL.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Its not about superiority, Jim (although I suggest you look in a mirror before accusing others having a false sense of it.)
> 
> Its about bowhunting.
> 
> Do me a favor. Hold your breath while we wait for xbow legalization nationwide - let's see how you do. LOL.



how many states have placed restrictions on crossbows in the last five years

how many have eased restrictions

as I said source, you are losing and we all know it.

we all know what causes your obsession


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> 3) All of the above and more


YOU LOSE-go back and read up on it

it was purely the predicted impact on the herd
none of the cult like nonsense you and source spew

BBL I have to go practice


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> how many states have placed restrictions on crossbows in the last five years


LOL. Its hard to get more restricted than ILLEGAL. 



Jim C said:


> how many have eased restrictions


Quite a few for physically challenged (which they should), less to allow them in gun season (which is fine with me), even fewer for full legalization. GA, AL,TN, VA, and now KY, I believe. Add OH, AR and WY, and that's 8 states in the last 30+ years. 



Jim C said:


> as I said source, you are losing and we all know it.


So by my count, that's bowhunting 42, crossbow 8. Seems like a pretty sound thrashing to me. 



Jim C said:


> we all know what causes your obsession


Yea - protecting bowhunting from the knuckledraggers. LOL.


----------



## Marvin

SteveBlack said:


> I wonder when Source is going to grow up.
> 
> Someone please, give the man his soother!


Guess it didn't take doug very long to find his way back.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> nope-when mechanical releases and 80% letoff came along that argument-which I never found persuasive to begin with-completely evaporated
> 
> let me ask you a question Marvin
> 
> do you think archery season got a long season because of
> 
> 1) a time requirement to master a bow
> 
> 2) or the predicted harvest rate and impact on the herd
> 
> 
> I suspect you understand legislative history
> 
> I know the legislative history


if I had to guess Jim I would say #2 . Who had a hand in dealing for the longer seasons? Gun hunters? You keep mentioning time constraint on mastering the bow BUT you also say they are 98% the same. So that 2% difference comparing it to your shooting groups witha crossbow taks about an hour ( 60 minutes) gives us a time differential of about 1.2 minutes difference to master a compound versus a crossbow. Is this a fair or true statement? Becareful now I wouldn't want you to upset all the compound archers out there or PROGERS buddies who (by his estimation 70% of them suck) lose all the deer. Am I asking that much for them to shoot 1.2 minutes longer?


----------



## Marvin

SteveBlack said:


> here is source's new blind


Doug, you need to find one that seats 3 or maybe four if you wanna include Bow1


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> if I had to guess Jim I would say #2 . Who had a hand in dealing for the longer seasons? Gun hunters? You keep mentioning time constraint on mastering the bow BUT you also say they are 98% the same. So that 2% difference comparing it to your shooting groups witha crossbow taks about an hour ( 60 minutes) gives us a time differential of about 1.2 minutes difference to master a compound versus a crossbow. Is this a fair or true statement? Becareful now I wouldn't want you to upset all the compound archers out there or PROGERS buddies who (by his estimation 70% of them suck) lose all the deer. Am I asking that much for them to shoot 1.2 minutes longer?



1) why do you care-that is what I really ponder. once we let compounds in-the attempt to draw a bright line borders on "we got ours but screw everyone else". As I said, its a recreational activity and I have serious concerns about those who feel a need to control others especially since no one has come close to giving me any evidence that an expansion would hurt them.



2) I have lost a deer-it went over down a rain soaked ravine and the local authorities prohibited me-on safety grounds from getting my ropes out and going after it. It was that evening before Thanksgiving and the Rangers didn't want to be pulling me out if I broke my leg like the last guy who tried to go into it. Don't worry, it was dead before it hit the creek 100 Meters below. 

If I have any doubt that I might not kill the deer, I don't shoot it, the one above was a 11 m shot-blew through both lungs and the arrow was covered with frothy bright red blood but anyone can lose a deer even with the best preparation


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Guess it didn't take doug very long to find his way back.


Huh?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Huh?


Doug reincarnated himself as Steve Black. Ol' Steve got the boot, too.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> 1) why do you care-that is what I really ponder. once we let compounds in-the attempt to draw a bright line borders on "we got ours but screw everyone else". As I said, its a recreational activity and I have serious concerns about those who feel a need to control others especially since no one has come close to giving me any evidence that an expansion would hurt them.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) I have lost a deer-it went over down a rain soaked ravine and the local authorities prohibited me-on safety grounds from getting my ropes out and going after it. It was that evening before Thanksgiving and the Rangers didn't want to be pulling me out if I broke my leg like the last guy who tried to go into it. Don't worry, it was dead before it hit the creek 100 Meters below.
> 
> If I have any doubt that I might not kill the deer, I don't shoot it, the one above was a 11 m shot-blew through both lungs and the arrow was covered with frothy bright red blood but anyone can lose a deer even with the best preparation


 i am actually speechless for once...what in the heck are you talking about?????


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Huh?


Yeah Doug took a long tip on a short boat ride


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> 1) why do you care-that is what I really ponder. once we let compounds in-the attempt to draw a bright line borders on "we got ours but screw everyone else". As I said, its a recreational activity and I have serious concerns about those who feel a need to control others especially since no one has come close to giving me any evidence that an expansion would hurt them.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) I have lost a deer-it went over down a rain soaked ravine and the local authorities prohibited me-on safety grounds from getting my ropes out and going after it. It was that evening before Thanksgiving and the Rangers didn't want to be pulling me out if I broke my leg like the last guy who tried to go into it. Don't worry, it was dead before it hit the creek 100 Meters below.
> 
> If I have any doubt that I might not kill the deer, I don't shoot it, the one above was a 11 m shot-blew through both lungs and the arrow was covered with frothy bright red blood but anyone can lose a deer even with the best preparation


I'll take a stab anyway what the heck

#1 Just answer teh question is 1.2 minutes too much. we are regulated EVERY day, every moment and everytime we walk into teh woods. whats the hang up?

#2I have never lost a deer as of yet. knock on woods.


----------



## Bellows1

Gentlemen, Please stay on the topic, NO personal attacks or name calling.


----------



## Jim C

Spelling Moderater? Huh?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Spelling Moderater? Huh?


Ut oh..looks like I am in for a spanking...wheres twogun....


----------



## Bellows1

Marvin said:


> Ut oh..looks like I am in for a spanking...where's twogun....


Edited for spelling. Bellows1 :wink: 

Carry on guys, just play nice please.


----------



## Marvin

Bellows1 said:


> Edited for spelling. Bellows1 :wink:
> 
> Carry on guys, just play nice please.


 I like it!! Where you been hiding...I could keep you busy for a while....


----------



## Bellows1

I'm gonna fall into the, disabled only column as far as Xbow usage.


----------



## Jim C

I am calling fraud-I deliberately spelled MODERATOR- as MODERATER

:wink:  :wink:


----------



## Bellows1

Jim C said:


> I am calling fraud-I deliberately spelled MODERATOR- as MODERATER
> 
> :wink:  :wink:


I considered the source and gave a freebie. :wink:


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I am calling fraud-I deliberately spelled MODERATOR- as MODERATER
> 
> :wink:  :wink:


:chortle: :chortle: That was worth staying up past my bedtime...


----------



## Jim C

Bellows1 said:


> I considered the source and gave a freebie. :wink:



You didn't work for the Clinton White House did you?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> No BUT they tell them where they can and have to shoot. Sound familiar?:tongue:


This is where private clubs and organizations come into play. They make the rules for THEIR club or organization. Just because an organization states " to be a part of" or " to be recognized in" does not and should not mean that it has jurisdiction over the ones not a part of or desiring to be in. Since I have no desire to be in P&Y and do not get involve in Tournament neither should have a bearing on what I or others not belonging to the organizations do. Just as the rules of one lease have no bearing on another. It is about choosing and conforming to the rule of each

There are several things that have been over looked when talking about P&Y and should be clarified 
P&Y does not exclude xbow hunters that met the original requirements to join, but trophies taken with a crossbow will not be included in the record book. So once the application is filed and accepted you can continue to pay your dues and retain your membership
http://www.pope-young.org/membership.asp
Membership in the Pope and Young Club is entirely separate from the Records, which is one of the programs maintained by the Club.
SPECIAL NOTE: For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club's Records Program, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted. A let-off exceeding sixty-five (65) percent, using the A.M.O. standard method of measurement, will be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. For further information, please click here for the "Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow and Broadhead.
Pope and Yound only provides a definition of a bow for there records program according to the publication. They do not say that a crossbow is not archery

http://www.pope-young.org/Definition.asp
4. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.

So what was the original intent, any guess would be speculative, but when reading the word nominal and variations in DL and DW affect the letoff It would lead me to believe that the original intent of the new rule to mean "If do to the DL and DW you go over the letoff restriction slightly you can still have your trophy in the Record Book" not that bowhunters using compound bows originally set to higher letoff will still be accepted with an "*". 2 or 3% or maybe even 5% would be nominal or minor not 10 to 20%. As many of you will now boast that you always hunt according to P&Y fair chase and "my bow" is set at 65%, Right. Seems as though many of you violate what you advocate If you claim to play by the rules you need to play by all of them, but wait they neither say that crossbows aren't archery or shooting a compound with more than minor increase in letoff is not archery just that it won't be in the record book..You guys read what you want it to say but in short excess letoff nor a crossbow will get you in the book so both will be viewed the same for the record book


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> This is where private clubs and organizations come into play. They make the rules for THEIR club or organization. Just because an organization states " to be a part of" or " to be recognized in" does not and should not mean that it has jurisdiction over the ones not a part of or desiring to be in. Since I have no desire to be in P&Y and do not get involve in Tournament neither should have a bearing on what I or others not belonging to the organizations do.


Pope and Young's Bowhunting Rules of Fair Chase are considered the standard for the sport. If you choose to ignore them, then that is your decision....they are not laws, they are rules. Most bowhunters (and even most nonhunters) feel that fair chase is an essential part of bowhunting. There is not much that needs to be said about any hunter who would willingly shun the rules of fair chase.





cynic said:


> P&Y does not exclude xbow hunters that met the original requirements to join, but trophies taken with a crossbow will not be included in the record book. So once the application is filed and accepted you can continue to pay your dues and retain your membership


Nor should they, since the animal in question was hunted in fair chase (you must sign an affadavit verifying that you complied to fair chase.) 



cynic said:


> Pope and Yound only provides a definition of a bow for there records program according to the publication. They do not say that a crossbow is not archery


LOL. What, do you think we make this up? Even the staunchest procrossbower understands P&Y's position on crossbows. When ATA suggested that crossbows were part of Archery, P&Y held a National Bowhunting Summit, resulting in (among other things) a letter to the ATA regarding their position on crossbows. You can look up the whole thing if you feel inclined, but I'll give you the good stuff:
_
The Summit’s one-page protest letter to the ATA states, in
part, “We universally consider the intrusion of crossbows into the
archery seasons as the most imminent and critical threat to the
future of bowhunting as we know it.” The letter went on to claim
that ATA is controlled by crossbow interests even though “that
product threatens to displace or destroy what your industry and
our sport were built upon. Given that, and to avoid more potential
conflicts that will hurt us all, we respectfully request that ATA
instead take a leadership role in clearly disassociating crossbows
from conventional archery equipment and absolutely opposing
the further intrusion of crossbows into any bowhunting season.”_

Seems pretty clear to the rest of us.





cynic said:


> So what was the original intent, any guess would be speculative, but when reading the word nominal and variations in DL and DW affect the letoff It would lead me to believe that the original intent of the new rule to mean "If do to the DL and DW you go over the letoff restriction slightly you can still have your trophy in the Record Book" not that bowhunters using compound bows originally set to higher letoff will still be accepted with an "*". 2 or 3% or maybe even 5% would be nominal or minor not 10 to 20%. As many of you will now boast that you always hunt according to P&Y fair chase and "my bow" is set at 65%, Right. Seems as though many of you violate what you advocate If you claim to play by the rules you need to play by all of them, but wait they neither say that crossbows aren't archery or shooting a compound with more than minor increase in letoff is not archery just that it won't be in the record book..You guys read what you want it to say but in short excess letoff nor a crossbow will get you in the book so both will be viewed the same for the record book



I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say here. The rule is clear. If your bow has a letoff of 65% or less, no asterisk. Higher than that, you get an asterisk. They will allow a slight variation around 65% without an asterisk, but if they deem it beyond the nominal they will slap an asterisk on it. Where's the confusion?


----------



## cynic

Strictly going by what they promote on there site. Are you saying the site is a sham, That if you do not do an in depth research analysis you will not know there intent? 
animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records

Don't make it say what it doesn't..It doesn't say that 65% no (*) and anything greater gets (*). It says nominal percent above gets (*). 
Less than or equal to 65% no asteric
greater than by any measure even minor/nominal % gets asteric

The letoff rule did not intend to make all compound bows legal for record book inclusion only that there are reasons that nominal % would be allowed


----------



## cynic

And at the very end 
"For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable" 

It does not say all variations are acceptable just minor variations..


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Strictly going by what they promote on there site. Are you saying the site is a sham, That if you do not do an in depth research analysis you will not know there intent?
> animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records
> 
> Don't make it say what it doesn't..It doesn't say that 65% no (*) and anything greater gets (*). It says nominal percent above gets (*).
> Less than or equal to 65% no asteric
> greater than by any measure even minor/nominal % gets asteric
> 
> The letoff rule did not intend to make all compound bows legal for record book inclusion only that there are reasons that nominal % would be allowed


I think you need to look up the definition of "nominal" and get back to me.


----------



## Jim C

ITs a private club that few bowhunters belong to-it has no real relevance and it has now become an enemy of more bowhunters than it has members

its a tool of the ARC


----------



## cynic

4. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.

Source, I know you are trying to turn this around but lets analyze:

It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. They did not include anything about cams and mods just DL & DW

This says that DL & DW can affect the percentage of letoff and they understand and realize that. And because of that fact they are willing to accept minor variations do to DL & DW but will get an (*).

The only reason listed for acceptance Is the increase do to DL & DW


----------



## thesource

Sigh. I am not trying to turn it around, I am trying to explain it to you.

While I understand that many are used to nominal meaning small or trivial, such as a "nominal fee", it is very common in engineering to refer to something that is on target as nominal, or to refer to a specification design as nominal. For example, we mght make golf balls and when someone asks "How big is a golf ball", the answer would be "1.62" in diameter, nominally." That means we planned, designed, and targeted the golf ball to be 1.62", on average, when we make them. Of course, there is manufacturing variability, so not every golf ball is 1.62", but they are supposed to be.

OK - let's move on to letoff, shall we?

In this context, can you understand "with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk " a little better?

It clearly means that bows that have a designed, planned, and targeted letoff greater than 65% - in other words, when you thumb throiugh Cabela's and see a bow that says its 80% letoff, that means it was built to have 80% letoff and the nominal letoff for that model is 80%. That would get an asterisk in the book.

If you buy a bow model that has nominal letoff of 65% (meaning, again it was targeted, planned, designed, and built to have a letoff of 65%), but the letoff actually varies a tad due to draw weight or draw length, or even the manufacturing variability present in all processes - that is still OK.

Class dismissed.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> ITs a private club that few bowhunters belong to-it has no real relevance and it has now become an enemy of more bowhunters than it has members


The only hunters who seem to have an issue with P&Y rules of fair chase are those who are trying to gain an advantage by breaking those rules.

A great example is lit sight pins. Hunters who use them piss and moan how they should be legal, they're no different than fiber pins, etc.

But the fact is, they do indeed provide an advantage over the deer by allowing these hunters additional shooting time when there is no longer sufficient light to shoot with traditional pins. P&Y is correct - It really DOES violate fair chase.

Same with crossbows.


----------



## cynic

4. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.


"It clearly means that bows that have a designed, planned, and targeted letoff greater than 65% - in other words, when you thumb throiugh Cabela's and see a bow that says its 80% letoff, that means it was built to have 80% letoff and the nominal letoff for that model is 80%. That would get an asterisk in the book."
WRONG No where does it say nominal 80%, no where does it include bows higher than 65, nowhere does it even insinuate that bows designed with higher than 65% will be accepted. It only states the reason for acceptance above 65% will be DL & DW


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> 4. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.


Sigh. Stop arguing and read. Open your mind and learn.

_Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of *let-off greater than 65 percent *shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records._

That means designed for letoff higher than 65% (including our theoretical 80% bow)....These would get an asterisk.

_It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable._

This means that small variations from nominal are acceptable. Assuming your bow's nominal letoff is 65%, that means you wouldn't get an asterisk.


----------



## cynic

. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.

Nominal above 65%, not designed for above, but 65 with nominal increase..Again read bows that have *nominal* percent of letoff above *65 percent*


----------



## thesource

There is no hope for you.

If you go back and reread what I wrote about the engineering term "nominal", it should become crystal clear for you. You are not understanding what the word means in this context.

Hopefully, everyone else can understand it.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Sigh. I am not trying to turn it around, I am trying to explain it to you.
> If you buy a bow model that has nominal letoff of 65% (meaning, again it was targeted, planned, designed, and built to have a letoff of 65%), but the letoff actually varies a tad due to draw weight or draw length, or even the manufacturing variability present in all processes - that is still OK.
> Class dismissed.


 It does not state a bow with nominal letoff of 65% or a nominal letoff of 70-75-or even 80%. What it says is a nominal percent of _letoff_ above 65%..AND the variations do to DL & DW will be accepted..This is why most manufacturers have options for 65% let-off and then a higher let-off


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> It does not state a bow with nominal letoff of 65% or a nominal letoff of 70-75-or even 80%. What it says is a nominal percent of _letoff_ above 65%..AND the variations do to DL & DW will be accepted..This is why most manufacturers have options for 65% let-off and then a higher let-off


Yikes - what does it take for you to be a man and admit you were mistaken? 

% of letoff _is_ what we call letoff. 70, 75, and 80% are all above 65%.
I am assuming that your confusion is due to the context of the word nominal. Perhaps it is something else that you, as of yet, have not articulated, but the meaning of the P&Y quote is clear as a bell to most people.

And most manufacturers have a 65% letoff model so customers can make the book with no asterisk, if that is there goal.

Maybe you should check into this stuff a little more.


----------



## cynic

Man are you reaching interpret it how you want to make yourself better, the confusion is when take the word nominal out of context you put nominal with letoff and skip percent. When the two words are next to each other they should be used in conjunction with each other..Nominal percent/small percent in comparison to. Yes 10 + percent to some would be nominal in order to justify to themselves that it is okay to do what they do but not someone else, that's okay Source. But when you take a bow already allowing the comfort of 65% and add another 10% that is a significant reduction thus no longer would it be nominal percentage above the 65%. 
Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. 
No where does it say that animals taken with bows of greater than nominal percent of letoff above 65% will be allowed. Maybe you should write the rule instead of interpret it


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> That means designed for letoff higher than 65% (including our theoretical 80% bow)....These would get an asterisk.


Are you saying these only exist in theory?
http://www.benpearson.com/2003/sdsvx.asp
Mcpherson SDS
Axle to Axle: 35 3/8" 
Brace Height: 6 9/16" 
Cam: Laser cam with PhD (perfect horizontal delivery) and ball bearings
Idler: Accu-Trac with ball bearings 
Let-off: 85% Stock - 65% and 75% available 
Draw Lengths: 24" - 31" (modular) 
Draw Weights: 40, 50, 60, or 70 pounds 
Color: Superflauge by Lynch Worldwide, Caged Cat Camo 
Speed: 298 - 303 fps, IBO (30" draw @ 70 lbs and 5 grains per pound) 

They have several other models to choose from in 85% let-off


----------



## thesource

Are you being stubborn or stupid? 

"our theoretical 80% bow" is OBVIOUSLY referring to the bow I was using in the example - that bow doesn't exist, it was an example, and is purely theoretical. duh.

I absolutely know that 80% letoff exists - I even own one. I own another compound with 55% letoff.

If I were to kill a bonafide P&Y buck with the latter - I'm in the book. If I shoot the same deer with my 80% letoff bow - I'm STILL in the book, but with an asterisk. Plain and simple.

I have been as patient as I am going to be, and I just cannot explain the other part any clearer to you...you are simply wrong.

In this context, nominal does not mean small, it means typical. Jeesh.


----------



## Jim C

And when Poop and Dung sees most people are using 80% bows the asterix will go away

As Randy Newman's song noted

ITS MONEY THAT MATTERS


----------



## cynic

Well Source I will be man enough to say You were right to a degree(mostly) and thus have killed my thinking that maybe P&Y had not totally gone to the soft side..
Glenn at P&Y informed me that anything over 1 or 2 percent would get an (*). All bows are elligible. So once again I have lost all respect for P&Y where before the explainantion by them I had started to think that they hadn't totally caved to the whilm of the high let-off compound users just to make it easier and obtain more revenue. But I was wrong, they gave in. Go ahead I'll take my beating now.....


----------



## thesource

No beating. I appreciate you setting the record straight.


----------



## cynic

Thanks for ur understanding, Only 1 problem though, just when I was fighting that maybe P&Y wasn't as bad as what everybody said and that they really hadn't strayed far from the origin of the 65% you proved me wrong.


----------



## thesource

It's true.

They gave in to higher letoff because everyone was using it anyway and they risked becoming irrelevant (Jim would say they already are.)

I think the asterisk was their way of compromising.

Its a shame that technology (and those who violate fair chase and use it) are making their job harder.


----------



## cynic

This is not for arguement simply questions..


thesource said:


> It's true.
> 
> They gave in to higher letoff because everyone was using it anyway and they risked becoming irrelevant (Jim would say they already are.)
> 
> So with this reasoning wouldn't it be fair to say that as more and more people use xbows they will again see the risk of become irrevelvent and be forced to change?
> 
> I think the asterisk was their way of compromising.
> In your opinion is that a fair compromise and what did they compromise except the integrity of their organization by lowering the standards by which the organization was founded once again? I mean after all they were forced to allow compounds in the 70's then they were forced to allow higher let-off in 2004. At what point can they say that enough is enough If you think our club is what you want these are the rules like them or not and it is not about revenue, it is about TRADITION? Is it fair to allow them at this point to force their opinion of archery on others and is it fair that the ones that forced the changes to the original rules to demean and belittle another persons desire to use something different?
> 
> Its a shame that technology (and those who violate fair chase and use it) are making their job harder.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> So with this reasoning wouldn't it be fair to say that as more and more people use xbows they will again see the risk of become irrevelvent and be forced to change?


That's one way of looking at it, and that's what procrossbowers would like to believe.

But if they allowed crossbows they risk alienating the bowhunters that founded, grew, and have supported the club. They would no longer represent bowhunting - there would be no reason to exist.

No, I think Pope and Young has drawn their line in the sand that cannot be crossed - and that is crossbows.



cynic said:


> In your opinion is that a fair compromise and what did they compromise except the integrity of their organization by lowering the standards by which the organization was founded once again? I mean after all they were forced to allow compounds in the 70's then they were forced to allow higher let-off in 2004. At what point can they say that enough is enough If you think our club is what you want these are the rules like them or not and it is not about revenue, it is about TRADITION? Is it fair to allow them at this point to force their opinion of archery on others and is it fair that the ones that forced the changes to the original rules to demean and belittle another persons desire to use something different?


In my opinion, it should have stayed 65%. On the other hand, I agree that compounds should have been allowed. Compounds are, after all, just an evolved bow, and allowed more people to handle draw weights more appropriate for deer hunting. Compounds have totally fueled the archery boom. Bowhunting would not be were it is today (and crossbows would be in nothingness) were it not for compounds.

Pope and Young can't force anything but their opinion on anyone. They are not lobbyists, can't offer free goodies (like Horton and ODNR). But they have clout, influence, and prestige that you and your side cannot tarnish no matter how hard you try. I don't see ANY of the bowhunting organizations at the international, national, or even state level belittling anyone....where do you get that?

Pope and Young will hold the line at crossbows, trust me. They know a bow when they see one, and they know what isn't, too. They believe that crossbows are the biggest foreseeable threat to bowhunting today, and I agree with them.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> In my opinion, it should have stayed 65%. On the other hand, I agree that compounds should have been allowed. Compounds are, after all, just an evolved bow,
> The Crossbow has been here even longer thatn the compound
> and allowed more people to handle draw weights more appropriate for deer hunting.
> I differ on the draw weight theory since Primitive nations thrived for years on self bows..My theory would be ease of use And the xbow allows for the handling of even higher draw weights therefore would be more appropriate than the compound according to that arguement
> Compounds have totally fueled the archery boom.
> The archery boom is declining every year
> Bowhunting would not be were it is today (and crossbows would be in nothingness) were it not for compounds.
> You are right but is where it should be?
> 
> Pope and Young can't force anything but their opinion on anyone. They are not lobbyists, can't offer free goodies (like Horton and ODNR). But they have clout, influence, and prestige that you and your side cannot tarnish no matter how hard you try. I don't see ANY of the bowhunting organizations at the international, national, or even state level belittling anyone....where do you get that?
> 
> Pope and Young will hold the line at crossbows, trust me.
> Trust is not something I will give you
> They know a bow when they see one, and they know what isn't, too.
> There vision and interpretation is different than many
> They believe that crossbows are the biggest foreseeable threat to bowhunting today, and I agree with them.
> And I feel that they and people that think like you are


So we still have differences


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> The Crossbow has been here even longer thatn the compound


Big fat so what? The VAST majority of crossbows today are compound crossbows ...were THEY "here even longer than the compound"? 
That is high on my list of really dumb arguements. Just because they were around doesn't mean they were bows - they clearly were not. In fact, as you say, they were around as bowseasons first began....and excluded even then because they were not bows. Then and now....not bows.



cynic said:


> I differ on the draw weight theory since Primitive nations thrived for years on self bows..My theory would be ease of use And the xbow allows for the handling of even higher draw weights therefore would be more appropriate than the compound according to that arguement


Yea - except for that whole "not a bow" thing. 



cynic said:


> The archery boom is declining every year


This is actually wrong. Nationwide, archery hunting is one of the few (maybe the only) segment of hunting that is growing.


----------



## cynic

You are right archery is growing everywhere the crossbow is allowed? So the statistics are correct since they recognize xbow hunters in archery


----------



## thesource

That's cheap. and dumb.

Only 5 states have added stringguns in what, 30 years? Logic alone dictates that isn't the answer.


----------



## cynic

Not a bow!!!I would have thought you would have more than that..It is only not a bow to closed minded,self centered, Over inflated egotistical people oh, and P&Y but we already established that they make the rules as they go for the good of revenue not bowhunting or archery season..So none of that matters. The wind is blowing and change is in the air


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> That's cheap. and dumb.
> 
> Only 5 states have added stringguns in what, 30 years? Logic alone dictates that isn't the answer.


and with some there is no logic


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Not a bow!!!I would have thought you would have more than that..It is only not a bow to closed minded,self centered, Over inflated egotistical people


LOL.

What about the "enlightened" KDFWR? They allow xbow in archery season, but define archery equipment as longbow, recurve, and compound bow. They don't include xbow in the definition of archery equipment!

Ohio has separate definitions for bow and crossbow, as does pretty much every state in the union.

Looks like you are the uninformed one (again.)


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> What about the "enlightened" KDFWR? They allow xbow in archery season, but define archery equipment as longbow, recurve, and compound bow. They don't include xbow in the definition of archery equipment!
> 
> Ohio has separate definitions for bow and crossbow, as does pretty much every state in the union.
> 
> Looks like you are the uninformed one (again.)


how many deer have you taken with a crossbow source?

I thought so-and you call people uninformed

You also lie about only 5 states-Indiana, Kentucky, Georgia, Maryland, Florida, Wyoming, Virginia off the top of my head have Xbow archery hunting-they didn't 30 years ago and many more allow some people to use them in archery season


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> What about the "enlightened" KDFWR? They allow xbow in archery season, but define archery equipment as longbow, recurve, and compound bow. They don't include xbow in the definition of archery equipment!
> 
> Ohio has separate definitions for bow and crossbow, as does pretty much every state in the union.
> 
> Looks like you are the uninformed one (again.)


You are correct again, definitions: each type of archery equipment will have a different definition
http://hometown.aol.com/tradbowmd/archdict.htm#l
Self bow:A _bow_ consisting essentially of one piece of wood (either a single piece or a spliced pair of billets). See stick bow. 
Long bow:Generally any straight or nearly straight _bow _of five feet or longer (where the string does not lay on the belly of the limbs
recurve bow: The name for a bow with limbs that curve smoothly forward 
compound bow:A _bow_ developed in recent years that uses a system of cams, pulleys, and cables to change the weight build-up as the bowstring is drawn. Peak draw weight occurs during the first few inches of draw, with a reduction at full draw 
Crossbow:A _bow_ designed to be shot similarly to a gun, with a groove or barrel that directs the arrow and a trigger that releases the string.

So as you can see each does have a different definition but all are _bows_ and found in archery..You and those like you are the only source  that do not consider a crossbow a bow and archery..All others sources give the same or similar definitions. Just because you and those that think like you choose not to believe it does not change the fact that it is archery and belongs in archery even though you may not want it


----------



## Jim C

one of sources main problems is that he cites groups that have an agenda based on greed for "proof" that crossbows aren't archery equipment. Groups that exist for the promotion of archery that have not taken a position on crossbow in archery season hunting-Like the NAA (that included crossbows long before compounds ever existed)-do call Xbows archery and they don't do that purely to promote a position in the bowhunting debate.

in other words, source cites bigoted groups who have an agenda directly tied to a lie while we can cite groups who have no agenda on the bowhunting debate


----------



## twogun

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by cynic
> So with this reasoning wouldn't it be fair to say that as more and more people use xbows they will again see the risk of become irrevelvent and be forced to change?





> posted by source:
> 
> That's one way of looking at it, and that's what procrossbowers would like to believe.
> 
> But if they allowed crossbows they risk alienating the bowhunters that founded, grew, and have supported the club. They would no longer represent bowhunting - there would be no reason to exist.
> 
> No, I think Pope and Young has drawn their line in the sand that cannot be crossed - and that is crossbows.


I can't speak for crossbow hunters in general, but I don't think P&Y should change the fact that they don't recognise crossbow kills. But I do think they should stop fighting against crossbows in general. Leave them out of their books, but leave the hunters who want to use them alone.

I've brought it up a couple times recently, and source has mentioned it in this thread, the idea that:

"The crossbow is the biggest threat to bowhunting"

Why won't anyone explain this statement in detail?

I PM'd Doctari a few days ago asking if it would be appropriate to start yet another crossbow thread focusing on the "Threat" alone. He said it would be fine, but I didn't have the stomach for it. I wanted to focus this thread on "Fair Chase" and it spiralled into the same old crap. I figured another one would just do the same, but since this thread has started to address it, I think I'll go ahead and start it.

My final word on the "Fair Chase" issue. "Fair Chase" is a general guiding principle on which all of our hunting is based. From there the states make the laws, and each individual decides on his personal ethics. *There is nothing in either P&Y or B&C definitions that says crossbows are a violation of "Fair Chasae".* Anyone who makes statements like "It's bowhunting's rules of fair chase" and can't directly support it with specific reference to the official definitions is manipulating the principle to his individual specific wants. If in your personal code of bowhunting ethics, you feel that using a crossbow is against "FC" that's fine, but don't state it as some kind of generally accepted rule across the board in the world of bowhunting. It's simply not true.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> in other words, source cites bigoted groups who have an agenda directly tied to a lie while we can cite groups who have no agenda on the bowhunting debate


One of Jim's big problems is that he cites groups that have nothing to do with or are only peripherally linked to bowhunting.

We are not debating wether or not IBO should have a crossbow stake - who cares? 

We are discussing when they should be used for HUNTING.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> how many deer have you taken with a crossbow source?


None.

And unless NY develops a crossbow only season, I never will, either.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> None.
> 
> And unless NY develops a crossbow only season, I never will, either.


good, and I hope you don't suffer an injury because based on your blather, you clearly couldn't handle having to hunt with a crossbow but the point I am making is that you really are not in a position to even discuss crossbows being "too easy" since you are ignorant about them


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> good, and I hope you don't suffer an injury because based on your blather, you clearly couldn't handle having to hunt with a crossbow but the point I am making is that you really are not in a position to even discuss crossbows being "too easy" since you are ignorant about them


You are right - if I was injured I would rather sit in the woods with a bow I could not shoot than hunt with a crossbow during archery season. It wouldn't be the end of the world. I have killed many deer and come to realize that killing a deer is not what I treasure most about bow season.

Your point is flawed. I know all I need to know about crossbows just from shooting the very first bolt from one. I have shot recurves, longbows, and compounds. They were all very similiar in that I hold them with my left hand, draw the string with my right hand, anchor aim and release.

And I have shot a crossbow. Put it to my shoulder, put the crosshairs on the target, switched off the safety, and pulled the trigger. It felt similar too - to every gun I have ever shot.

I do not need to hunt with one to know it is not a bow.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You are right - if I was injured I would rather sit in the woods with a bow I could not shoot than hunt with a crossbow during archery season. It wouldn't be the end of the world. I have killed many deer and come to realize that killing a deer is not what I treasure most about bow season.
> 
> Your point is flawed. I know all I need to know about crossbows just from shooting the very first bolt from one. I have shot recurves, longbows, and compounds. They were all very similiar in that I hold them with my left hand, draw the string with my right hand, anchor aim and release.
> 
> And I have shot a crossbow. Put it to my shoulder, put the crosshairs on the target, switched off the safety, and pulled the trigger. It felt similar too - to every gun I have ever shot.
> 
> I do not need to hunt with one to know it is not a bow.


you say that because you have no other argument and an opinion-no matter how stupid and how ignorant of fact is just that-an opinion

we all know why you keep at this and its rather amusing

I am glad your hoplophobia is such that you will probably be out of the woods at some point rather than having to taint your sense of self worth by using a crossbow


----------



## cynic

Jim C said:


> you say that because you have no other argument and an opinion-no matter how stupid and how ignorant of fact is just that-an opinion
> 
> we all know why you keep at this and its rather amusing
> 
> I am glad your hoplophobia is such that you will probably be out of the woods at some point rather than having to taint your sense of self worth by using a crossbow


Again simply an opinion, his own..but as long as he justifies to himself that he is better than everyone else in his mind he is okay


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Again simply an opinion, his own..but as long as he justifies to himself that he is better than everyone else in his mind he is okay


true-I just don't like the choice of others being impeded by the mental issues or self esteem problems of a few


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Your point is flawed. I know all I need to know about crossbows just from shooting the very first bolt from one. I have shot recurves, longbows, and compounds. They were all very similiar in that I hold them with my left hand, draw the string with my right hand, anchor aim and release.
> 
> And I have shot a crossbow. Put it to my shoulder, put the crosshairs on the target, switched off the safety, and pulled the trigger. It felt similar too - to every gun I have ever shot.
> 
> I do not need to hunt with one to know it is not a bow.


Jim a little help here- How do you shoot a slingshot? So if it is shot in the same means as any other hand drawn bow it must be a BOW according to SOURCE, funny but a sling shot is shot like a bow but doesn't look like a bow and is not a bow.
Pulling the trigger on the release feels just like the one on a firearm so that part would make every form of archery using releases feel similar to shooting a gun
Crosshairs on the target:
The use of a peep and pins would be the same on any weapon using any form of aiming device.

While you so desperately try make yourself and others feel that ya'll are above the rest it only is working for you and the ones that rationalized the same as you..


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Jim a little help here- How do you shoot a slingshot? So if it is shot in the same means as any other hand drawn bow it must be a BOW according to SOURCE, funny but a sling shot is shot like a bow but doesn't look like a bow and is not a bow.
> Pulling the trigger on the release feels just like the one on a firearm so that part would make every form of archery using releases feel similar to shooting a gun
> Crosshairs on the target:
> The use of a peep and pins would be the same on any weapon using any form of aiming device.
> 
> While you so desperately try make yourself and others feel that ya'll are above the rest it only is working for you and the ones that rationalized the same as you..



Yes, a slingshot is shot like a bow. form with a slinghot is closer to a real trd bow than shooting a compound with a release and sight I even had a slingshot with a reel on it that shot fishing arrows

source has issues-he thinks what you use impacts his standing as a great bowhunter

nothing more, nothing less


----------



## cynic

Now Jim, I can see where they wouldn't have a problem with a slingshot season because it doesn't impune their masculinity and they would still feel superior. Macho Man..


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Now Jim, I can see where they wouldn't have a problem with a slingshot season because it doesn't impune their masculinity and they would still feel superior. Macho Man..



true enough- most of the antis don't want the competition from more hunters in "their season"-source doesn't want someone thinking he may have used a crossbow-that's why he wants separate seasons


----------



## cynic

I don't understand the Competition aspect of hunting..I always thought that hunting was what each individual did and the experiences are shared by others. All of the DNR agencies I looked at term hunting as an outdoor RECREATIONAL activity. It is not an outdoor sport, It is not one hunter against another. I have never heard "the sport of hunting" but rather "the art of hunting" or "the skills of hunting". Not until getting involved in the La crossbow debate did I ever hear so many hunters bashing other hunters and the choice of weapon. I have heard the dog hunter issues but take them for what they are worth. I would have never thought that using a weapon comparable to what is already used would cause such a division, not amongst hunters but only bowhunters. Some like to think of themselves as "sportsmen" but use "unsportsman like conduct" I like to think of myself as open minded but to others my mind is closed, since I will not agree to the elitest connotations that hunting should be done their way. I do not pass judgement on what a hunter chooses, only the way they hunt with what they choose. Yet, who am I to pass any judgement. I predominately hunt with a Compound even though I own a xbow. If I had someone that wanted to hunt and had never done it after some practice I would gladly allow them my xbow and my favorite stand in order to allow them the opportunity to hunt. Yes, I am pro-crossbow also pro-archery, ML and gun and any other legal, ethical form of taking game. No where can anyone prove to me that a crossbow is unethical or not fairchase and Yes, Source it is legal here and many other places so don't try the "because It's not legal" arguement..I have a standing invite for all hunters if you are in my area and want to hunt I have places for every hunting tackle. I only ask that you not condemn others that hunt with something different from you...We ALL hunt together in different spots


----------



## Jim C

There is no competition-its an idiotic claim and even if it were, there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a crossbow has net advantage over compound bows. What really motivates this nonsense is that the antis want less people in the woods and they realize that new bow hunters are often more comforatable with crossbows-especially if they have a gun background. These people like FR want to keep those sort of people out only because they want more room to themselves but they have to cover that reason with all sorts of nonsense like xbows are not bows or violate fair chase and other such facades


----------



## ryersonhill

I read Traditional Bowhunter and get that same sick feeling as i do reading this, i wish that everyone could just hunt with whatever they want to hunt with and not condone people who chose to hunt with something differant, if Maine had a crossbow season i would go right out and buy one, spear season i would go right out and buy one, all this talk of you can't hunt with this because i don't want you to is bull cucky, i shoot with a group of guys that shoot as well with compounds as some do with a crossbow, so whats the big deal is a crossbow shooting so fast that it is a big diff from compounds, you read the trad magazines and they want you to hunt barefoot and sell all your four wheelers and live in the wild for the whole season, up here in Maine we have began a Bear season dilama that puts baiters against hound hunters and when we do WE ALL LOSE. So hey stand as one group of hunters againts the Non Hunters and we may win, what is going to suck is when we lose everything because we were so worried about what everyone else were doing and let the LIBS come in and drop the big one.... This is only one opion


----------



## KOhunter

Your dead on. It's already happened in Oregon. As far as the xbow goes, it's not a legal hunting weapon for anything. Your guys struggle btwn bait and hound hunters will end up like things in Oregon. The antis were able to have bait and hounds completely outlawed. If you guys want to be able to keep the priviledge to hunt with both, you better get your acts together. These guys that attempt to create division believe it's their right to be able to hunt, how and with whatever they want...wait till some tree hugger 500 miles away tells them different...then maybe they'll wake up...but by then it's to late.


----------



## progers

ryersonhill said:


> I read Traditional Bowhunter and get that same sick feeling as i do reading this, i wish that everyone could just hunt with whatever they want to hunt with and not condone people who chose to hunt with something differant, if Maine had a crossbow season i would go right out and buy one, spear season i would go right out and buy one, all this talk of you can't hunt with this because i don't want you to is bull cucky, i shoot with a group of guys that shoot as well with compounds as some do with a crossbow, so whats the big deal is a crossbow shooting so fast that it is a big diff from compounds, you read the trad magazines and they want you to hunt barefoot and sell all your four wheelers and live in the wild for the whole season, up here in Maine we have began a Bear season dilama that puts baiters against hound hunters and when we do WE ALL LOSE. So hey stand as one group of hunters againts the Non Hunters and we may win, what is going to suck is when we lose everything because we were so worried about what everyone else were doing and let the LIBS come in and drop the big one.... This is only one opion


AMEN Brother! It is so good to hear from another intellegent life form on here! :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> See here you go again, as bowhunters we are not the minority, proven by the very survey you like to point too so often, which Marvin did a great job finding and posting so we all can see what it really said instead of what you thought it said.
> 
> 
> I've already stated A.) that is NOT the correct information as it was in 2002,B.) That he posted NO link to confirm of where it came from
> 
> 
> But OK we'll use THAT "data" even though I know it's not correct just to prove a point from that post of yours
> 
> Archery hunters strongly or somewhat agree 36%
> Archery hunters strongly or somewhat oppose *37.1%* IN WHAT world is 37.1% a *majority*??? Also note there is a "whopping" 1.1% difference in what they said....wow!
> 
> 
> Then since polling just bow hunters, which is as it should be, did not help your position, you have to use data from gun hunters to prove your position.
> 
> Tell you what, when archers start paying most of the bills we'll let them have their say? As it is NOW, they are a minoirty in KY and thus, while they pay their fair share, it's not nearly enough to let them decide seasons for others....period...
> 
> 
> Ace I have news for you this is about bowhunters, not brass haulers, bowhunters should be the main voice on what happens in bow season, not those that stand to gain without giving.


NO I have "news" for *you* and your group this is about ALL hunters whether you like it or not, the compound was said by Fred Bear to help get gun hunters into archery, a BIG part of his sell, you certainly are NO Fred Bear, thus, I'll take his word over yours! So will the crossbow, while YOU and a "few" think this is a "bad thing" it IS exactly how this "archery season" was "born".....proving (that's a fact btw, with real data) that getting gun hunters involved with and into archery is a "good thing" and a "major selling point" for the season.....whether you like it or not.....indisputable fact!

"Gain without giving" you said?? LOL

What exactly did YOU do to "earn" archery season? What exactly did any of you guys do? 

Much less to "deserve" or be "entitled" to an "exclusive season"?? Just as I thought, plus, the gun hunters in Ky(over 95% of all hunters btw pay over 95% of the bills for us.......try telling THEM they haven't "given".....see how that goes for you?) :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> There is no competition-its an idiotic claim and even if it were, there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a crossbow has net advantage over compound bows.
> 
> What really motivates this nonsense is that the antis want less people in the woods and they realize that new bow hunters are often more comforatable with crossbows-especially if they have a gun background.
> 
> These people like FR want to keep those sort of people out only because they want more room to themselves but they have to cover that reason with all sorts of nonsense like xbows are not bows or violate fair chase and other such facades


Exactly that is "it"....."in a nutshell", NO real reasons, no data, nothing but what they want! Even going so far as to say, "hey I have no problem, so long as you do it my way!" Sad and not good for any of us.....period


----------



## aceoky

progers said:


> AMEN Brother! It is so good to hear from another intellegent life form on here! :darkbeer:


Agreed! And I'd bet there are more like him than there are these "few"! :cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

"Even KY doesn't classify it as archery equipment. It doesn't belong."

That is 100% incorrect and false, as I've told here several times that was CHANGED in 2005, then changed back, what IS archery weapons......it DID include the crossbow, now it doesn't ONLY because of our legal structure, when full expansion occurs, it WILL again be included.....again what happens when those who have no clue attempt to show "wisdom"......sad thing is, this makes several times I've corrected that "error"....


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> "Even KY doesn't classify it as archery equipment. It doesn't belong."
> 
> That is 100% incorrect and false, as I've told here several times that was CHANGED in 2005, then changed back, what IS archery weapons......it DID include the crossbow, now it doesn't ONLY because of our legal structure, when full expansion occurs, it WILL again be included.....again what happens when those who have no clue attempt to show "wisdom"......sad thing is, this makes several times I've corrected that "error"....



*THIS IS 100% INCORRECT. Its right here in black and white. Obviously KY does not consider the crossbow to be archery equipment, although (for whatever reason) it allows it in archery season.

Here's the link - check it out for yourselves http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/kyh05.pdf?lid=1215&NavPath=C151C158 - pg 53:*

_5. Archery equipment: a long bow, recurve bow or
compound bow incapable of holding an arrow at full or
partial draw without aid from the archer._

_
14. Crossbow: a bow designed or fitted to hold an arrow (or
bolt) at full or partial draw without aid from the archer._

Another one of your "facts", Aceoky?  LOL.
Its stuff like this that proves your total lack of credibility.


----------



## aceoky

*Hmm.....*

FR "And the only way to achieve that is to open hunting season up to all weapons during one season, is that what you want? We already know Ace is ok with that concept, are you? 


100% LIE........I said(and you FR posted it here) IF the KDFWR said the resources could handle it, why would I fight it......first show me where THEY said that exactly, and while you're at it, then prove that means I'm "for it"........I'm *really* tired of you trying to speak for me, much less "spinning" my words into what you KNOW I never even said, much less meant.....and that was in response to your "intended trap" btw..even then.....it didn't work then, it won't work now.....




Jim C said:


> You are lying again- no one who advocates crossbows wants firearms in them
> 
> you all play idiotic games by claiming a crossbow is not archery equipment
> 
> all your whining does is divide bowhunters and cause the xbow guys to dislike elitists like you
> 
> we are going to win-the only question is win-hopefully by that time we still have an archery season
> 
> I know a few xbow guys who think trad stuff ought to be banned due to the public perception of wounding and a lack of accuracy. Fortunately, the xbow guys tend to be more tolerant of the flingers than the flingers are of them
> 
> Marvin-Sorry-I have shot too many 3D events to believe that all the trads actually practice-many have pathetic shooting skills. Many of them are compound guys who developed bad habits, target panic or flinching and went to trads where such obvious (to compound archers) flaws are easily concealed.



EXACLTY! You summed it up when you stated :

"what you don't get is that trad archers LOBBIED 

to CHANGE THE RULES for their own benefit

THEN COMPOUND ARCHERS lobbied to CHANGE 

THE RULES for their own benefit as did those who 

wanted to use mechanical broadheads and 

releases

YET YOU ALL WHINE ABOUT CROSSBOWS doing 

the same thing

AS I SAID, if archery was forced to play under the 

rules you bigots want to impose on crossbows 

THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN AN ARCHERY 

SEASON AND THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN 

compound hunting

YOur selfishness is exceeded only by your 

seething hypocrisy"
THAT is what I told him a long time ago(FR) he doesn't want to believe the facts, and *tries* to blame the "division" on us....all the while not realizing what the real facts are, all he has is this BS......no more.....

BTW, I'm NOT for an "any season" never have been and he KNOWS it! As I said he *tried* to trap me with " Ace, you're for more opportunity, right" ETC. etc.etc. so I "played along with his BS" by saying IF the KDFWR said it was no harm to the resources, sure I would support them( it's their job HE always leaves out that part where I say they have a full staff of fully trained Wildlife Biologists at their disposal, who am *I* to question them) anyone wonder why HE leaves that out, yet claims I'm for an "any season"???

Sad they have nothing , so they try to use nothing, as their "facts" and even more sadly, they're only hurting any support they may have gained by doing so, the most sad thing of all, is they're only hurting ALL of us in the process!


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> actually Jim ace was pretty clear he wants any and all options open if the resource will support it.
> 
> here is the quote for ace
> 
> "It's better for everyone, let others hunt as they wish, and you do the same, NOT so complicated, so long as one doesn't mind sharing a little bit"
> 
> Post 388 in the primative thread


..


ONCE again, a personal attack, not only that but *trying* to imply I was saying something I was NOT saying, the discussion was ARCHERY NOT ANY WEAPON......... please get a grip, on at least some "reading comprehension" would you few??? AT NO time did *I* say "open the archery season for all weapons" I am NOT now nor have I ever been for that idea......period NO amount of LIES or spin will change that fact....THAT being said, I trust those in charge of the seasons at least here in KY to do what is best..........for all, including the resources.......BIG DIFFERENCE.....


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> ITs a private club that few bowhunters belong to-it has no real relevance and it has now become an enemy of more bowhunters than it has members
> 
> its a tool of the ARC


Agreed! 

And most KNOW this! But who knows maybe we need some new polls, such as does P&Y matter to you to what extent.......AND my favorite is a crossBOW a bow?


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> one of sources main problems is that he cites groups that have an agenda based on greed for "proof" that crossbows aren't archery equipment. Groups that exist for the promotion of archery that have not taken a position on crossbow in archery season hunting-Like the NAA (that included crossbows long before compounds ever existed)-do call Xbows archery and they don't do that purely to promote a position in the bowhunting debate.
> 
> in other words, source cites bigoted groups who have an agenda directly tied to a lie while we can cite groups who have no agenda on the bowhunting debate


Once again, Jim C has "hit the nail squarly on the head"!!

IT matters NOT what a FEW think......(if they do indeed "think" at all)....what IS important is what IS good for US all.......

I (and I seriously doubt I'm alone, far from it) have to believe MOST can see through this "smoke screen"

HOW many "real hunters" or "real bowhunters" give a "care" what the guy next door IS hunting with ???

C'mon let's be honest.............do YOU care what Joe, or Susan , or "little Joe" is using??


----------



## cynic

Yes, I do care. If in archery season, I want them to use whatever piece of archery equipment that gives them the most enjoyment, after all this is for recreation and enjoyment...Isn't it


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Yes, I do care. If in archery season, I want them to use whatever piece of archery equipment that gives them the most enjoyment, after all this is for recreation and enjoyment...Isn't it



the objective desires of the many outweighs the psychological infirmities of the few and the greedy:wink: :wink:


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> *THIS IS 100% INCORRECT. Its right here in black and white. Obviously KY does not consider the crossbow to be archery equipment, although (for whatever reason) it allows it in archery season.
> 
> Here's the link - check it out for yourselves http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/kyh05.pdf?lid=1215&NavPath=C151C158 - pg 53:*
> 
> _5. Archery equipment: a long bow, recurve bow or
> compound bow incapable of holding an arrow at full or
> partial draw without aid from the archer._
> 
> _
> 14. Crossbow: a bow designed or fitted to hold an arrow (or
> bolt) at full or partial draw without aid from the archer._
> 
> Another one of your "facts", Aceoky?  LOL.
> Its stuff like this that proves your total lack of credibility.


HOW SLOWLY should I state this so YOU can understand(and btw I don't even like to respond to you anymore due to your "demeanure"........i.e. accuse people of threats that were never issued, yet YOU state you'll give an addy.....guess YOU are the one wanting to "threaten" in this case??) but I digress........

IT DID INCLUDE THE CROSSBOW in the LEGAL DEFINTION OF ARCHERY ........in 2005!!!!!!!!!!! CAN YOU GET THAT...

THAT FACT was changed when YOU guys "divided" things........it WILL be included again.........wanna bet........YOU want to question ME on KY,.........that is a huge JOKE

WHAT EXACTLY HAVE YOU EVER DONE in KY or anywhere in a POSTIVE light for "bowhunting" OR anything......??? NOTHING from what I've seen...........*I* have been active in KY for over 25 YEARS.....and I am well known here for that......TRY AGAIN........

Edited to add: 

You sir are an idiot! To even think YOU that far away, can convince ANYONE that you know more about what IS going on here in KY "speaks volumes" of your level of sheer "not knowing" (trying to be nice here) I can POST where the Reg changed, however I won't because NOW that link is dead, because as I stated at least twice NOW.........it has changed, but WILL AGAIN AND SOON...... YOU three can thank yourselves for that .............NOW I will work ten times as hard to prove your "proof" as stupid as it always has been.........how's that??


----------



## thesource

Tssk, tssk ...

You shouldn't call me an idiot that is a clear personal attack and against the rules of this forum. First you threaten members, now personal attacks....are you some sort of troublemaker?

Anyway, I added the active link so that EVERYONE can go look at the 2005-2006 KY regulations themselves and find the definitions exactlt as I said they are.

This proves 
1) you were lieing 
2) That someone from out of state knows more about KY than you.

Before you get your panties in a bunch, you may be right and they may change the definition next year.

But for right now, it is what it is. Which makes you wrong (again.)


----------



## aceoky

First (and it's getting old), I never threatened anyone, and everyone knows this fact..it certianly was not me who offered to email their home address to "do this in person", which just may have been an actual threat....considering the "rationale" of the poster who said that...

Second it "simple" even for a simpleton to understand the reg WAS amended in 2005 to INCLUDE the crossbow as a legal weapon AND to REMOVE "a device holding the bow at full or partial draw" from what is not legal........

BTW those two little changes are and were all that is needed to make the crossbow legal during the entire archery season in Ky......IF you knew half as much about it, as you try to make people believe, you'd have known all of this, which proves what is really what....

YES that was changed back due to the "bow clubs" but it will very soon be back as it was.....:darkbeer: 


NOW for what IS relevent.....why are you so "obsessed" with what someone in KY chooses to hunt with during archery season, or in Tenn???? 

Why do care.....I mean really someone that far from NY, affects YOU exactly how?


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> YES that was changed back due to the "bow clubs" but it will very soon be back as it was.....:darkbeer:


Which means exactly what?

Oh, yea - *YOU ARE RIGHT AGAIN, SOURCE!!!*


----------



## Jim C

aceoky said:


> First (and it's getting old), I never threatened anyone, and everyone knows this fact..it certianly was not me who offered to email their home address to "do this in person", which just may have been an actual threat....considering the "rationale" of the poster who said that...
> 
> Second it "simple" even for a simpleton to understand the reg WAS amended in 2005 to INCLUDE the crossbow as a legal weapon AND to REMOVE "a device holding the bow at full or partial draw" from what is not legal........
> 
> YES that was changed back due to the "bow clubs" but it will very soon be back as it was.....:darkbeer:
> 
> 
> NOW for what IS relevent.....why are you so "obsessed" with what someone in KY chooses to hunt with during archery season, or in Tenn????
> 
> Why do care.....I mean really someone that far from NY, affects YOU exactly how?


many months ago there was a thread about NYS's benighted view on crossbows and its persecution of disabled individuals. Source (since no one knows who he is we have to "TRUST" him) claimed to live in NY and whined about non residents trying to force equality down his throat (never mind the fact that most of the groups who hate xbows in NYS spew the same crap that we see nationally)

now we have source whining about Kentucky

Me, I have hunting rights in Kentucky

how about you source?


----------



## thesource

I guess I'm wondering why you are worried about hunting rights in KY in a thread that is about fair chase.



?????


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I guess I'm wondering why you are worried about hunting rights in KY in a thread that is about fair chase.
> ?????


Good lets talk about fair chase for a minute..Who or what are we tryin to be fair to, Some think that P&Y epitomizes ethics and fair chase.
Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal
In the beginning the founding fathers of the elite P&Y club had no idea what turn of events to expect. They had no idea about scentlok suits, 25 foot treestands, scent containing pop up ground blinds,bows shooting 300+fps. Then the Compound hit the market with one of the leaders sitting on the board so they re-established the interpretation of improper or unfair. Now I ask what is the real definition of improper or unfair. From what I see the ethics of fair chase are gone in relation to P&Y..Everything that a hunter does is to give him an advantage, at what point is it improper or unfair. What we do now is way past the original outline but yet still think it is or have we moved past the guidelines of P&Y and if so why do people still look to them as a source of rules for engagement to fight against other hunters. 
Lets define what IMPROPER OR UNFAIR IS...before we talk about fair chase


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*cynic*

You said
*I have never heard "the sport of hunting" but rather "the art of hunting" or "the skills of hunting".*

"The sport of hunting" 
*35,800 *hits on google
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="the+sport+of+hunting"&btnG=Google+Search

"the art of hunting"
*19,200* hits on google
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="the+art+of+hunting"

"the skills of hunting"
*270 hits*
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="the+art+of+hunting"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="the+skills+of+hunting"


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Lets define what IMPROPER OR UNFAIR IS...before we talk about fair chase


OK.

Let's try to stay civil - Pete has demonstrated that it is possible to discuss controversial topics without sniping.

First - let's realize that what P&Y is saying is not that you cannot look for and gain advantage. They are saying it should not be "improper" or "unfair" advantage.

Shooting at a deer while it is swimming is obviously an "improper" and "unfair" advantage.

Lit sight pins are improper. Why? Because it allows the hunter to artificially extend his shooting hours past the point where he would otherwise be forced to quit hunting and the deer would be safe for the day.... that's unfair.

Now .... in that light, we can discuss some of the things you are complaining about.

Treestands - an advantage? sometimes, certainly. An unfair advantage? I don't think so. It doesn't effect fair chase because the deer are free to avoid your location. Same with ground blinds.

Scentlok - I don't use it, and have never really stopped to consider if it would be an improper advantage. I don't think it really works, first of all. Hunters have historically gone to extraordinary lengths to minimize and cover their scent, and that is fair chase. Maybe this is just an extension of that?

300+ fps bows - Now you are talking. I don't know what the number is, and it certainly isn't up to me to decide it, but everyone should admit that at some point, some velocity, it stops being an advantage and becomes an improper and unfair advantage.


----------



## cynic

http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/hunting/article/0,13199,458090,00.html
At first glance, hunting in America has never been in better shape, especially if you're in the business of hunting.
while reading the 1st paragraph

http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Outdoors/Hunting/desc.html
Top: Recreation: Outdoors: Hunting
the first line when opened

http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/evidence2/assocbloodhound.htm
An outline of our sport. 
Bloodhound Trials is the sport of hunting cold human scent (from 30 minutes to 24 hours cold) with single Bloodhounds hunted and followed on foot. At public meets the hounds are always worked singly, in private they may be hunted in couples or small packs according to the numbers kept in the kennel. The sport was developed in the late 19th century and the Centenary of the first Bloodhound Trials held by our Association fell in 1998. Currently the sport is under the control of the Kennel Club in the UK.
piting animal against animal

http://www.jayssportinggoods.com/OutdoorJournal/article.cfm?articleID=52
The Sport of Hunting
By Angela Briggs

Last Updated: Tuesday, Dec 23 2003 7:23 AM 

Sport is defined as any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation. 
so I guess anything can be a sport by the author!!
My mom calls hunters "big kids, it's like they are out there playing a game."
It can even be a game!!

"Sure it's great to shoot something, but I like to go out and not shoot anything," my dad told me. "I like to see how close I can get to
the animal and how quiet I can be."
Would lead one to believe STALKING but very few bowhunters stalk farther than their treestand
http://www.googlism.com/what_is/f/falconry/
falconry is an art and a sport

And again while it is a sport it is also an art but it is an art first by this definition

While you choose to consider it a sport and in competition I do not. While you chose to use the internet to show that some do use the term "sport" .
What I said is "I have never heard the term the sport of hunting". So now I can say "it has been brought to my attention that some use the term sport of hunting" and some define sport as any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation 
but by Definition: sport competitive physical activity---Which would mean that if and only if that individual feels he has to compete is it a sport....I do not compete so therefore it is not a sport--to me. Thus hunting will remain an outdoor recreational activity for enjoyment.
So lets move on to what is unfair or improper to the animal to better understand FAIR CHASE


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> While you choose to consider it a sport and in competition I do not.


Certainly you must understand that there is the competition of predator and prey.

Competition never is more stark or real than that - life or death for winner and loser.


----------



## cynic

Source this topic is about fairchase and the crossbow. I keep trying to get it back on topic. You define it how you want lets try to stay on topic so this one doesn't get locked too, or is that what you are after? I don't consider killing an unarmed animal competition as they can not kill me also.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Source this topic is about fairchase and the crossbow. I keep trying to get it back on topic.


Look 3 posts up. 

I'm waiting on you.


----------



## fasst

Mornin' fellas!
Let's please get this back on topic.:wink:


----------



## cynic

Source is that 3 including your post? Since you have so much wisdom and insight as to what the meaning is I would like you to start. Since your are the source So I am looking to you for guidance.


----------



## cynic

fasst said:


> Mornin' fellas!
> Let's please get this back on topic.:wink:


I keep trying....


----------



## cynic

Okay since Source doesn't want to start with his definition.
Definition: improper unsuitable
Definition: unfair not just
still to vague 
Definition: unsuitable inappropriate
So while the Fair Chase rule set down by P&Y are used as a guideline for game laws they are so vague with no definition that they can be intepreted to mean what ever the hunter deems in his best interest at the time. What one person deems improper/unsuitable/unfair/not just/inappreopriate others will not. When used in conjunction with advantage
Definition: advantage superior position 
This would lead me to believe that the use of any weapon other than bare hands gives the hunter an advantage.
The use of a treestand giving a hunter a higher vantage point(military tactics used to gain advantage over the enemy) gives him an unfair advantage
Scent suits and cover scents are not fair since the animals main defense is his nose.
I guess I should stop as it seems that we have all the advantages and they only have natural instincts.
So at this day in time with all the man made advantages I don't think that we should use the term FAIR CHASE to define anything other than free ranging..
So can we define Free Ranging. 
Deer are creatures of habit If a human plants a food plot to hold and maintain deer is that any better/worse than a fence? I would say yes on small tacts of land as the deer will leave one tract to go onto another on large tract no as the deer are only going to range so far from food. strategically placed food plots will ensure the deer staying on one large parcel..
Seems as though Free Range and Fair Chase have changed. Maybe we should re-evaluate what we do in terms of the original intent 40+ yrs ago


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> OK.
> 
> Lit sight pins are improper. Why? Because it allows the hunter to artificially extend his shooting hours past the point where he would otherwise be forced to quit hunting and the deer would be safe for the day.... that's unfair.
> 
> .


Tritium is okay because its not lit by electron movement?

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...varTarget=browse&cmid=PP_P0_1&cmCat=CROSSSELL

A battery is not though because electrons move...on the bow.

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...varTarget=browse&cmid=PP_P0_1&cmCat=CROSSSELL


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

fasst said:


> Mornin' fellas!
> Let's please get this back on topic.:wink:


Fasst,

Just in case this was directed at me, I'd like to respond. 
With all due respect I thought I was on topic. 
The very first post of this thread used the word '_sport_' 5 times.

Twice in quotes from Pope & Young
Once in a quote from Boone & Crockett
Once by the author.
Once in a quote (unnamed source) referencing Jim Posewitz
"...president of Orion: The Hunter's Institute, he is one of _sport _hunting's most passionate defenders...Orion's definition of ethical hunting includes four elements: 1) fair chase; 2) free-roaming wildlife; 3) noncompetitive; and 4) used for food."

I'm not trying to be belligerent. Just trying to get everyone to use the same definition of words. Every one has their own idea of what competition and sport are all about. Some think you can have one without the other. I'll move forward through the rest of this thread with an eye towards fair chase as defining activity between man and prey.


----------



## cynic

But as I said before the definitions of each is vague and open for interpretation by each individual


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> So at this day in time with all the man made advantages I don't think that we should use the term FAIR CHASE to define anything other than free ranging..



You just don't get it, and it saddens me.

Fair chase is a concept, an idealogy....

If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.

Cynic....If you believe that all the things you say violate fair chase, then I hope , for your own sake, you avoid them.

To do otherwise would be unethical.

At the end of the day, one must live with one's self.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Tritium is okay because its not lit by electron movement?
> 
> http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...varTarget=browse&cmid=PP_P0_1&cmCat=CROSSSELL
> 
> A battery is not though because electrons move...on the bow.
> 
> http://www.basspro.com/servlet/cata...varTarget=browse&cmid=PP_P0_1&cmCat=CROSSSELL


See the above post.

Personally, I feel tritium crosses the line....I wouldn't use them, because I would feel like it was cheating.

Fiber optic sights, squeezing the most out of the last of the daylight, are straddling the line, IMO.

By the way, I don't use them, either, on my compounds (and of course you won't find them on my recurves.)


----------



## aceoky

*If you think or feel something violates fair chase, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.*

Same thing with weapons choice, use them IF you want, don't IF you don't wish to do so, NO need in "hard and fast" rules and regs, based on what a few want others to have to use be it a compound, crossbow longbow, each hunter gets to choose THIER own archery tackle....simple enough concept isn't it........:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

Yep .... simple enough concept.

Of course, the P&Y rules of fair chase supersede your own opinions. They ARE hard and fast.

P&Y does not believe that your beloved crossbow should be considered a hunting bow, and I agree.

simple enough, isn't it?:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

*Facts*

First problem P&Y doesn't speak for the volumes of bowhunters that you'd like to say they do....

Second problem, IF one is interested in their *opinion*on the matter, then and only then does it matter and then only to those few.......OR if they want their buck in the club "Book".......NOT hardly much of a statement to say what THEY say matters, when in fact it only matters to a few when we're talking about most.......MOST do not care what P&Y says nor does......because some do, or actually care about that book.......means next to nothing (if even that):darkbeer: 

Also they're NOT my opinions there is plenty of facts and data to back up our claims, where is the same from the few who oppose them in archery season? They don't exist, the best you guys can and have done thus far is submit your opinions on why YOU guys don't think they should be allowed.......against our facts......

Why does it bother you and yours so much , what archery weapon another hunter chooses to use in an archery season?

THAT is the question......and you have not answered it at all with one fact.....or any data.......that is the difference in fact and opinions.......WE have facts and data on our side (for a small example NO harm to the resources, and yet more opportunity for archers).....you guys have only opinions and when compared to the actual, facts and data, they just don't amount to much imho

Pope and Young are NOT hard and fast rules, they are their opinion, and only matter to those few who think that they do.......


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> and you have not answered it at all with one fact.....or any data.......that is the difference in fact and opinions.......WE have facts and data on our side


LOL ... like the FACT that the state of KY does not consider the crossbow to be archery equipment? 

Look - there is no doubt that people like you do not feel bound by the rules of fair chase. If it is legal, you will do it. Good for you.

The people who matter most in bowhunting will do it by thre rules ... both the legal rules and the rules of fair chase.

And you wonder why those who follow the rules of fair chase feel superior to you? It seems obvious to me.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL ... like the FACT that the state of KY does not consider the crossbow to be archery equipment?
> 
> NOT exaclty true(and you know this as many times as I've posted the facts of the matter).
> 
> IF the state of KY "defined" them as such, they'd then be legal, for the entire archery season as was done, then YOUR side worked to reverse(delay in fact) that , however, don't "fret", we are working very hard to change that back, where the crossbow WAS legal archery tackle, so "run with it for as long as you can," I'd guess that however won't be very long:darkbeer:
> 
> Look - there is no doubt that people like you do not feel bound by the rules of fair chase. If it is legal, you will do it. Good for you.
> 
> Another "put down' of another hunter, who you have no credentials to judge, and even IF you did have, you have no basis upon to make it, you know nothing about me nor what I've done for my state in regards to hunting and YES bowhunting.......
> 
> The people who matter most in bowhunting will do it by thre rules ... both the legal rules and the rules of fair chase.
> 
> They "matter" to YOU alone, it seems, IF you honestly think MOST bowhunters give a flip about P&Y you are badly mistaken at the very best....
> 
> And you wonder why those who follow the rules of fair chase feel superior to you? It seems obvious to me.


Not only do I NOT wonder, I don't care why they "feel" superior, I'd like them to be able to prove they actually are......OR drop it.....again simple enough concept...at least for most to see and comprehend.....


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> They (the rules of fair chase) "matter" to YOU alone, it seems, IF you honestly think MOST bowhunters give a flip about P&Y you are badly mistaken at the very best....
> ..


If you think I am the only one who cares about the rules of fair chase, you are woefully out of touch with this nation's bowhunters....

Oh yea, your a gun hunter and a crossbow guy. Never mind.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Yep .... simple enough concept.
> 
> Of course, the P&Y rules of fair chase supersede your own opinions. They ARE hard and fast.
> 
> P&Y does not believe that your beloved crossbow should be considered a hunting bow, and I agree.
> 
> simple enough, isn't it?:darkbeer:


How the hell do you get that a private member only, elitest organization that you don't belong to supercedes anyone elses opinion after all there rules were made by opinion and are nothing more than the opinion that in the beginning were thought to be defining. But in todays society with liberal interpretations either anything is fair or anything could be considered unfair. The P&Y definition is no more definitive than mine the difference being they exclude and I include. They change the there own rules for the all mighty dollar to keep from going down the drain. If you support them so much and believe in them so highly why didn't you bail there revenue problem out? Just what I thought,,it just isn't that important..The only thing that has not changed in P&Y is the need for more money higher revenues..Scoring measurements have changed acceptance of higher let-off now you want to take a vague definition and call it HARD and FAST. Until there is a true definition of unfair or improper is set by DNR for everybody without regard to membership it is merely an open interpretation to be defined by the individual hunter..other than acts that are illegal set by law..

http://myfwc.com/hunting/handbook/handbook05.htm#2
PROHIBITED METHODS AND EQUIPMENT FOR TAKING GAME

• Centerfire, semi-automatic rifles having magazine capacities of more than five rounds.
• Non-expanding, full metal case (military ball) ammunition for taking deer.
• Firearms using rimfire cartridges for taking deer.
• Rifles, pistols or crossbows for taking migratory game birds.
• Fully automatic or silencer-equipped firearms.
• Explosive or drug-injecting arrows.
• Taking or attempting to take game with live decoys, recorded game calls or sounds, set guns, artificial lights, nets, traps, snares, drugs or poisons.
• Shooting from vehicles, powerboats or sailboats moving under power. Motors must be shut off or sails furled and the vessel’s progress must cease from such motor or sail before hunters may shoot wildlife.
• Herding or driving wildlife with vehicles, boats or aircraft.
• Hunting turkeys with dogs.
• Shooting turkeys while they are on the roost.
• Taking migratory game birds over baited areas.
• Taking turkeys by baiting or over baited areas.
• Taking turkeys when the hunter is within 100 yards of a game-feeding station.
• Taking fawn deer or swimming deer is prohibited.
• Hunting with bows equipped with sights or aiming devices with electronic computational capabilities or light projection (laser) features during archery seasons.
• Hunting resident game using bows with draw weights less than 35 pounds.
• Using dogs without collars identifying owners.
• Using dogs on private lands without written landowner permission (See Deer Dog Registration on page 7).
• Possessing modern firearms while muzzleloading gun hunting during special muzzleloading gun seasons.
• Possessing firearms or crossbows while archery hunting during special archery seasons.
• Placing, exposing or distributing soporific, anesthetic, tranquilizer, hypnotic or similar drugs or chemicals; preparation by baits; or by other means whereby game birds or game animals can be affected, unless authorized by permit from the FWC executive director.

This Source, is hard and fast as a matter of fact it is the law here. No where does it iclude the words Unfair or improper. The FWC clearly define the laws
P&Y rules.
Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural resources.

The term "Fair Chase" shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. 
From any power vehicle or power boat. 
By "jacklighting" or shining at night. 
By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. 
While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. 
By the use of any power vehicles or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. 
By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating, or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. 
Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable. 

This Source is vague open to interpretation, an opinion, not law. This pertains to P&Y members only. Those not members are not bound by these. These are not laws. Seems as though at least here in Florida FWC was smart enough to define the LAW without open ended interpretation.. AND GUESS WHAT THE LAW SUPERCEDES POPE AND YOUNG


----------



## cynic

*Plz read this*

http://www.huntfairchase.com/index.php/fuseaction/ethics.now
LEGAL VERSUS ETHICAL
Hunting is an intensely personal experience fraught with personal choices. Consider the contrast between what is legal and what is ethical. It is difficult to conceive of a situation in hunting where the commission of an illegal act could be considered ethical. But, the inverse is not only possible, but also common. In short, legality describes the outside boundaries within which ethical choices are made. 

For example, some hunters take shots at deer in excess of 300 yards. They have rifles and ammunition capable of accuracy at such ranges. They practice at those ranges and are capable and confident of almost certain clean kills. Other hunters would never think of taking a shot at this distance. It's legal. There is nothing in the game regulations about maximum allowable distances yet many will not take that shot. Why? Some do not have experience with this type of shooting. Others feel the risk is too high for wounding and therefore the practice is unethical. Others might consider that shooting at such ranges, even with a high probability of success, is simply too great an advantage over the prey and would choose to stalk in closer. 

The point is, there are many things in the hunting and habitat management world that are legal, yet can be considered by some to be unethical. Again, it is left for each individual to set his or her own ethical standards. Hopefully, all of our collective decisions will shine positively on hunting, management and its traditions

DIVIDED WE FALL
Hunting is a personal experience filled with personal choices taking place in many areas with varying traditions and rules. The concept of "fair chase" is a noble one and something that is meant to be a unifying, governing force. The concept was not created as a test to divide ethical hunters. 

One of the reasons why our wildlife and habitat conservation system works is because individual states regulate what goes on within that state. Can you imagine the train wreck that would occur if the same rules applied for all states regardless of traditions, the diverse species of game, and various habitats found in different regions? Deer hunting with a crossbows is legal in Ohio, but not in some other states. Baiting deer is legal in some states, yet frowned upon by hunters in other states. You can run bear and cougar with hounds in some western states, but only spot and stalk hunt in others. Steel shot, lead shot, plugged shotguns, expandable broadheads, inline muzzleloaders - the list goes on and on. The bottom line - we are too small of a group not to support each other. If you hunt, you belong to a fraternity. If a hunting method is legal in another state, but not in your state, crying foul won't help the bigger picture. If a way of hunting is under attack in another state, your way is under attack, even if you do not agree with or practice this method.

Long and short is ethics is each individuals opinion and self regulating while occurring within the bounds of the law


----------



## thesource

How very warm and cuddly, cynic. Your second post supercedes your first post because of these sentences:

In short, legality describes the outside boundaries within which ethical choices are made. 

and 

It is difficult to conceive of a situation in hunting where the commission of an illegal act could be considered ethical. But, *the inverse is not only possible, but also common.*

In other words, people like you (who scoff at fair chase or ethics) commonly violate fair chase even though the acts you commit are not illegal.

That doesn't make it right.


----------



## cynic

*If a hunting method is legal in another state, but not in your state, crying foul won't help the bigger picture. If a way of hunting is under attack in another state, your way is under attack, even if you do not agree with or practice this method.*

Did you miss this part....Do you not understand that until defined completely both are individual opinions..what 1 person considers unfair to fair chase or unethical, someone else may not


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You just don't get it, and it saddens me.
> 
> Fair chase is a concept, an idealogy....
> 
> If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.
> 
> Cynic....If you believe that all the things you say violate fair chase, then I hope , for your own sake, you avoid them.
> 
> To do otherwise would be unethical.
> 
> At the end of the day, one must live with one's self.


great point source-you hunt with your bow I will hunt with mine. I won't judge your choice, and you won't judge mine. That is what we have been telling you for 1900 posts. If you don't think a crossbow is FAIR-dont hunt with one but stop telling those of us who don't believe in your "ethics" that we are cheating or lazy because we get tired of you trying to expand beyond you living with yourself


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> If you think I am the only one who cares about the rules of fair chase, you are woefully out of touch with this nation's bowhunters....
> 
> First I never said that, what I DID say was P&Y NOT the rules of fair chase, why do YOU insist on twisting other's words around??
> 
> Oh yea, your a gun hunter and a crossbow guy. Never mind.


Yeah, I've never shot a crossbow, much less hunted with one, however I DID list the PSE compound model right here not very long ago......

YOU seem to be too terribily interested in what OTHER hunters choose to use, but once again, YOU don't know "squat" about any of it.....sure I hunt with a gun(30/06 since you seem to care), a ML AND a PSE compound Mach 4, and as anyone who KNOWS bows would know, I've had it for some time.... and SO WHAT???

How does that affect YOU ??? Even though I most often use the bow (one sight NOT fiber optic, low let-off and a two blade broadhead(non-expandable.) fwiw)....

Well, at least most here trust that *I* AM a hunter!!:darkbeer:

They* (the rules of fair chase) *"matter" to YOU alone, it seems, IF you honestly think MOST bowhunters give a flip about P&Y you are badly mistaken at the very best....

YOU inserted (rules of fair chase) when it was VERY clear that comment was made about P&Y.....again why do you feel the need to TRY to speak for me??


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> You just don't get it, and it saddens me.
> 
> Fair chase is a concept, an idealogy....
> 
> But then YOU say it's "hard and fast"......interesting the way you twist and turn other's words.....lol
> 
> If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.
> 
> Again though you say, it IS???
> 
> Cynic....If you believe that all the things you say violate fair chase, then I hope , for your own sake, you avoid them.
> 
> To do otherwise would be unethical.
> 
> At the end of the day, one must live with one's self.


And it's much more than what archery weapon one takes out to hunt with, and MOST are very much aware of that fact...


----------



## cynic

Guys I truly don't think that Source cares one way or another. He just likes to see his posts on the board.


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Guys I truly don't think that Source cares one way or another. He just likes to see his posts on the board.


LOL

source has a good point. when you buy a horton, it guides you into the woods even if you have never hunted before.

It tells you where to put your treestand. It emits a sound wave that makes big bucks blind deaf and dumb. They can't hear, see or smell you. After the horton guides the arrow into the kill zone, it guides you to where the deer has fallen

yep, when you buy a crossbow you don't need to learn all the stuff that you really need to know to successfully hunt deer

as I told the source-if deer hunting was about how much time you spend learning to shoot your bow, then the best deerhunters in the world would be all those korean girls who have won just about every olympic gold medal available over the last 20 years


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Yep .... simple enough concept.
> 
> Of course, the P&Y rules of fair chase supersede your own opinions. *They ARE hard and fast*.
> 
> P&Y does not believe that your beloved crossbow should be considered a hunting bow, and I agree.
> 
> simple enough, isn't it?:darkbeer:


See? NOW which is it? :cocktail: 

Again P&Y do NOT speak for the majority of bowhunters, like it or not they don't.....not even close , to their membership their OPINION might matter, or may not....to the rest of us.....they do not.....


----------



## Jim C

aceoky said:


> See? NOW which is it? :cocktail:
> 
> Again P&Y do NOT speak for the majority of bowhunters, like it or not they don't.....not even close , to their membership their OPINION might matter, or may not....to the rest of us.....they do not.....



Its like the Catholic church telling me-a man raised episcopalian-that its archaic and backwards position on birth control applies to me.

sorry Poop and Dung is a cult-if their members want to follow it-fine with me-just don't tell me what I can do and believe me, if Poop and Dung want to try to ban xbows in ohio-we can thrash those losers in the court of public opinion rather nicely.

who do you think the average member of the public would despise more-a crossbow hunter or a egotistical trophy hunter

no contest


----------



## cynic

So are we in agreement that fair chase has nothing to do with the weapon as long as it is legal to use in that season? If so that means, if the xbow is legal to use, it does not violate fair chase and those that choose to use it could care less about P&Y definitions. Is this correct?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> LOL
> 
> source has a good point. when you buy a horton, it guides you into the woods even if you have never hunted before.
> 
> It tells you where to put your treestand. It emits a sound wave that makes big bucks blind deaf and dumb. They can't hear, see or smell you. After the horton guides the arrow into the kill zone, it guides you to where the deer has fallen
> 
> yep, when you buy a crossbow you don't need to learn all the stuff that you really need to know to successfully hunt deer


You are being sarcastic, of course.

But, its still telling when you look closer:



Jim C said:


> yep, when you buy a crossbow you don't need to learn all the stuff that you really need to know to successfully hunt deer


That part is true, if you mean BOWHUNTING for deer. When you use a crossbow, you don't need to learn how to draw a bow, when to draw abow, where to anchor, how to release.

Ironic, isn't it, that in his sarcasm Jim has illustrated my point perfectly.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> So are we in agreement that fair chase has nothing to do with the weapon as long as it is legal to use in that season? If so that means, if the xbow is legal to use, it does not violate fair chase and those that choose to use it could care less about P&Y definitions. Is this correct?


Twogun has already settled this particular issue pages ago, if you were paying attention.

He e-mailed P&Y, and they said that they do not consider crossbows a violation of fair chase where it is legal. Are you always a day late and a dollar short? 

However, in my opinion, it is a violation of fair chase during archery seasons since I do not believe it is a hunting bow.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You are being sarcastic, of course.
> 
> But, its still telling when you look closer:
> 
> 
> 
> That part is true, if you mean BOWHUNTING for deer. When you use a crossbow, you don't need to learn how to draw a bow, when to draw abow, where to anchor, how to release.
> 
> Ironic, isn't it, that in his sarcasm Jim has illustrated my point perfectly.


most of that stuff is eliminated with a compound too-at least all the stuff we archery coaches see as the intrinsic skills of archery

Its why America's greatest all round (hunting, field, target) lady archer in history noted that shooting a recurve teaches you to shoot a bow, shooting a compound teaches you how to aim.

there is nothing that requires you to actually learn any of that to hunt and having spent over 2000 hours coaching all kinds of archers and spending most of my free time in a range or archery club I can tell you many many bowhunters have no clue how to properly shoot a bow

your selfish and greedy desire to impose a filter on people by choice of weapon not only backfires in many cases (like macho men picking compounds and wounding rather than using a crossbow) its stupid since what people use doesn't hurt you


----------



## cynic

Since you just want to argue, Are you saying that anyone can pick up a rifle and shoot without properly anchoring, breathing while shooting a rifle/xbow makes an extreme diference. In order shot consistant groups you must follow the same procedure each time you shoulder aim breathe and squeeze the trigger, any variation changes the group. Evidently you don't shoot a rifle any more than a bow


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Twogun has already settled this particular issue pages ago, if you were paying attention.
> 
> He e-mailed P&Y, and they said that they do not consider crossbows a violation of fair chase where it is legal. Are you always a day late and a dollar short?
> 
> However, in my opinion, it is a violation of fair chase during archery seasons since I do not believe it is a hunting bow.


I don't give a dang about what P&Y thinks or does..is your elevator out of order? It is apparent it doesn't reach the top floor. 
Again, me and many others have explained that your opinion doesn't matter.


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Since you just want to argue, Are you saying that anyone can pick up a rifle and shoot without properly anchoring, breathing while shooting a rifle/xbow makes an extreme diference. In order shot consistant groups you must follow the same procedure each time you shoulder aim breathe and squeeze the trigger, any variation changes the group. Evidently you don't shoot a rifle any more than a bow



source is an anti hunter. Here are two of the chief skills in bowhunting that really are rather minor using a rifle (or a modern shotgun in many areas) RANGE ESTIMATION. with a 308, A deer at 200 yards will still die if I think he is 100 yards away.

You think a deer is 20 yards away with a crossbow and he is 40-you aren't getting that deer.

another related skill is trajectory judgment. What I mean by that is if I see a deer and I have a 6" window clear to him I will hit him with a rifle. The trajectory of a crossbow is rather large and a crossbow archer has to take into account limbs and vines above his target-just like other archers.

source and his ilk think that crossbow archers have a big advantate because they don't have to draw in te presence of game. In reality, you have to pick up and aim the bow and if a deer is watching you you will be busted as surely as someone drawing a compound on a deer.

yet source doesn't know this

he doesn't hunt so its understandable


----------



## thesource

I said:



thesource said:


> When you use a crossbow, you don't need to learn how to draw a bow, when to draw abow, where to anchor, how to release.


Then you said:


Jim C said:


> most of that stuff is eliminated with a compound too



Are you on crack? 

Since when did a compound draw and shoot itself?

You look pretty darn foolish right about now.

More compound bashing rhetoric from the crossbow extremist.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Since you just want to argue, Are you saying that anyone can pick up a rifle and shoot without properly anchoring, breathing while shooting a rifle/xbow makes an extreme diference.


Breathing?

Us bowhunters worry about torquing, jerking, flinching, pre-releasing, and follow through....

you're worried about BREATHING? 

keep talking - you make a great case..........for my side.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you on crack?
> 
> *Since when did a compound draw and shoot itself?*
> 
> You look pretty darn foolish right about now.
> 
> More compound bashing rhetoric from the crossbow extremist.


Are you?

Exactly which weapon "draws and shoots itself"? and if so , does it feel pain when "shooting itself"?:darkbeer: 

We agree on one thing though, someone does look pretty foolish right now, we just don't agree on which one that is....LOL


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> yet source doesn't know this


Source does know this.

Source thinks that both range estimation and trajectory judgment are a heck of a lot easier with a bolt going 355 fps than an arrow going 260 fps.

Source also thinks you are overlooking the fact that in addition to those critical skills, a bowhunter must draw undetected, aim across 2 planes, and shoot with accuracy from a platform that does not have internally controlled ballistics.

Pretty simple to see why bowhunting is vastly different than crossbow hunting if you are objective and not a partisan crossbow extremist.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Are you?
> 
> Exactly which weapon "draws and shoots itself"? and if so , does it feel pain when "shooting itself"?:darkbeer:
> 
> We agree on one thing though, someone does look pretty foolish right now, we just don't agree on which one that is....LOL


"_how to draw a bow, when to draw abow, where to anchor, how to release._"
keep up aceoky. We don't have time to fill in the slow witted, here


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Breathing?
> 
> Us bowhunters worry about torquing, jerking, flinching, pre-releasing, and follow through....
> 
> you're worried about BREATHING?
> 
> keep talking - you make a great case..........for my side.


Now I know you've "lost it"! 

ALL of those things are important to shooting a firearm, and "flinching" is most of the problem with deer caliber and above firearms(and larger shotguns as well).......the more you type the more you show what you do NOT know, or understand!!

Since YOU took the liberty to "label" me as a "gun hunter", I trust you'll understand that I know from where I speak.....:cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> "_how to draw a bow, when to draw abow, where to anchor, how to release._"
> keep up aceoky. We don't have time to fill in the slow witted, here


NO we don't, but yet we keep trying, you and yours just don't want to understand or accept proven facts and hard data!

BTW, *I* have taken MANY *mature* deer on the ground with my bow, some under 6 FEET ........so yes I know about drawing undectected, the difference, is I also KNOW it's not impossible or as hard as some want us to believe!

I've also heard enough crossbows shot to realize and understand how loud A.) the safety is on many of them B.) how loud they are when shot.....

:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you on crack?
> 
> Since when did a compound draw and shoot itself?
> 
> You look pretty darn foolish right about now.
> 
> More compound bashing rhetoric from the crossbow extremist.


Poor source walks into it again

a modern compound and release (which is what 90% of the bowhunters use) eliminates having to learn how to release a string

you don't have to learn how to hold the full weight either-a skill that takes lots of training

It is you who is foolish

maybe if you ever learn how to shoot a bow you will realize how utterly idiotic your attempts to butt heads with me looks


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Breathing?
> 
> Us bowhunters worry about torquing, jerking, flinching, pre-releasing, and follow through....
> 
> you're worried about BREATHING?
> 
> keep talking - you make a great case..........for my side.


Too funny you apparently know even less about shooting a rifle for accuracy than you do a bow..try jerking a trigger and see what happen to point of impact. then again flinch or squeeze the trigger while adjusting for shot..but torque see what happens when you roll your wrist while squeezing. Please don't go here with me...Remember I am one of the ones that hunts with a rifle and have taken the long shot. While you may not consider it ethical I am comfortable with them.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Now I know you've "lost it"!
> 
> ALL of those things are important to shooting a firearm, and "flinching" is most of the problem with deer caliber and above firearms(and larger shotguns as well).......the more you type the more you show what you do NOT know, or understand!!
> 
> Since YOU took the liberty to "label" me as a "gun hunter", I trust you'll understand that I know from where I speak.....:cocktail:


When is the last time you flinched with a gun and missed a deer at 30 yards? LOL.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Source does know this.
> 
> Source thinks that both range estimation and trajectory judgment are a heck of a lot easier with a bolt going 355 fps than an arrow going 260 fps.
> 
> Source also thinks you are overlooking the fact that in addition to those critical skills, a bowhunter must draw undetected, aim across 2 planes, and shoot with accuracy from a platform that does not have internally controlled ballistics.
> 
> Pretty simple to see why bowhunting is vastly different than crossbow hunting if you are objective and not a partisan crossbow extremist.


poor source-so you are in favor of say crossbows that stay within the IBO rules? there is maybe one or two crossbows than can achieve such speeds and its pushing the envelope

of course you are the dishonest poster who compares the most powerful crossbow available-one that isn't even legal in ohio with run of the mill lower weight compounds.

face it source-you argue these points because you don't have the balls to explain why you really hate crossbows-they hurt your fragile self esteem


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> When is the last time you flinched with a gun and missed a deer at 30 yards? LOL.


what stupidity. source is against cleanly killing deer


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> When is the last time you flinched with a gun and missed a deer at 30 yards? LOL.


Missed a deer or missed and wounded a deer?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> a modern compound and release (which is what 90% of the bowhunters use) eliminates having to learn how to release a string


Although you seem to believe that your compound hating rhetoric wins you points, I'm pretty sure it does not (considering the audience)

If you have ever shot a compound with a release, you would know that it still requires skill and technique. I will agree that it is not as technique driven as a finger release - you need to admit that it is still more difficult than pulling the trigger of a gun (or a crossbow - same difference with regards to the trigger)

To say otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Let's see if you can pass this test....


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Missed a deer or missed and wounded a deer?


You wound deer? Pretty bad reflection on gun hunters, there ....


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> You wound deer? Pretty bad reflection on gun hunters, there ....


I simply asked for clarification you assume that I have missed

You say you bowhunt or even own a bow!..That's a bad reflection on all of us


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Although you seem to believe that your compound hating rhetoric wins you points, I'm pretty sure it does not (considering the audience)
> 
> If you have ever shot a compound with a release, you would know that it still requires skill and technique. I will agree that it is not as technique driven as a finger release - you need to admit that it is still more difficult than pulling the trigger of a gun (or a crossbow - same difference with regards to the trigger)
> 
> To say otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Let's see if you can pass this test....



its easier to hold a compound steadier than a crossbow unless you rest the crossbow (which I and most of the guys I know don't do)

a trigger is a trigger. you can actually use "dumb" muscles to shoot a thumb trigger mechanical release-you are less likely to flinch on that than an index finger activated crossbow trigger.

my wife-once a decent crossbow target archer developed a flinch with a crossbow but was a 300 level compound archer-she never had a flinch shooting a carter. 

its actually common with index finger triggers-that's why so many Trap shooters go to a RELEASE trigger which is fired when you LET GO the trigger

so my young apprentice-you cannot pass your own test

go off and learn before you presume to teach your master anything let alone quiz him


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> poor source-so you are in favor of say crossbows that stay within the IBO rules? there is maybe one or two crossbows than can achieve such speeds and its pushing the envelope
> 
> of course you are the dishonest poster who compares the most powerful crossbow available-one that isn't even legal in ohio with run of the mill lower weight compounds.
> 
> face it source-you argue these points because you don't have the balls to explain why you really hate crossbows-they hurt your fragile self esteem


Ah Jim 

More tirades from the radical left of archery.

First - I don't hate crossbows. I think they belong in their own season, though. I'm not at all partial to the crossbow advocates who try to ram them into bow season and down the throats of bowhunters.

Secondly - If the IBO rule you refer to is 285 fps, there are WAY more than 1 or 2 crossbows that achieve significantly higher than those speeds. We don't need the exomax to prove the point ... there are numerous crossbows that shoot in excess of 320 fps.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> its easier to hold a compound steadier than a crossbow unless you rest the crossbow (which I and most of the guys I know don't do)
> 
> a trigger is a trigger. you can actually use "dumb" muscles to shoot a thumb trigger mechanical release-you are less likely to flinch on that than an index finger activated crossbow trigger.
> 
> my wife-once a decent crossbow target archer developed a flinch with a crossbow but was a 300 level compound archer-she never had a flinch shooting a carter.
> 
> its actually common with index finger triggers-that's why so many Trap shooters go to a RELEASE trigger which is fired when you LET GO the trigger
> 
> so my young apprentice-you cannot pass your own test
> 
> go off and learn before you presume to teach your master anything let alone quiz him


You ignored the question and grandstanded on a similar but different topic. Typical. 

Is there or is ther not more to using a compound release than simply pulling the trigger?


----------



## cynic

And even more compounds.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> I simply asked for clarification you assume that I have missed



I assume you miss with everything.

That's why you need a crossbow.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Ah Jim
> 
> More tirades from the radical left of archery.
> 
> First - I don't hate crossbows. I think they belong in their own season, though. I'm not at all partial to the crossbow advocates who try to ram them into bow season and down the throats of bowhunters.
> 
> Secondly - If the IBO rule you refer to is 285 fps, there are WAY more than 1 or 2 crossbows that achieve significantly higher than those speeds. We don't need the exomax to prove the point ... there are numerous crossbows that shoot in excess of 320 fps.


you brag about your engineering degree source-well I was the ranking student in my class in the political science department

far left is an interesting concept given that my position is based on tradition
the tradition that archers used to get a special season and the tradition compound archers used to be included in that season

Now I guess you could be considered "right wing" just as some people call the Klan and the racists who wanted to exclude blacks from civil rights "right wingers"

Name the numerous crossbows that shoot in excess of 320 FPS with normal hunting weight bolts and broadheads.

why do you make a fool of yourself Source? NO ONE HERE BELIEVES that you are against crossbows based on your uninformed and ignorant attempts to demonstrate something you don't have either the facts or the intelligence to establish. We all know why you obsess about crossbows-its all about your ego and your fragile image and the way you see yourself as a bowhunter

BTW source the IBO limit on xbows isn't 285, its 300. Many IBO compounds can go faster than that


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I assume you miss with everything.
> 
> That's why you need a crossbow.



really source-As I said, I use a crossbow-ANY TIME YOU WANT TO SHOOT AGAINST ME FOR WHATEVER AMOUNT OF MONEY you care to lose just step up to the plate. York rounds with longbows, FITA rounds with compounds, OR rounds with recurves-what ever you want (sorry tied up live deer in the woods is illegal-you might have an edge there)

your cheap shots are not only moronic-you don't have the juice to back them up


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I assume you miss with everything.
> 
> That's why you need a crossbow.


I don't need any of them I choose the ones I want. I sleep better at night knowing that you have no decision making capabilities in reference to what I do for recreation..


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you brag about your engineering degree source-well I was the ranking student in my class in the political science department


Congratulations. I'm sure that a political science degree is handy.


I have never bragged about an engineering degree, Jim, although I may mention my occupation from time to time to remind you that you cannot ride roughshod over physical realities. I'm sorry you feel inferior.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Congratulations. I'm sure that a political science degree is handy.
> 
> 
> I have never bragged about an engineering degree, Jim, although I may mention my occupation from time to time to remind you that you cannot ride roughshod over physical realities. I'm sorry you feel inferior.


feeling inferior is what fueled the vast majority of your 2000 posts.

real bowhunters with self confidence don't whine about what other people participate in a recreational activity with.


----------



## thesource

Real bowhunters protect bowhunting from the invasion of nonbowhunters.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Real bowhunters protect bowhunting from the invasion of nonbowhunters.



real psychotics are the only people calling crossbow hunters non bowhunters.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Real bowhunters protect bowhunting from the invasion of nonbowhunters.


I really don't appreciate the constant attacks on other hunters all the while you paint us as "anti-bowhunters"...

Do you honestly think it helps your posistion to continue to attack other hunters, rather than answer the very simple questions you've been asked??? 

BTW:

REAL bowhunters are too busy, to worry about what other real bowhunters are using, nor do they even care! 

WE(that is REAL bowhunters) are only concerned with what WE are doing, and why.......NOT what "Joe" and "Shirley" and "lil Johnny" may be using.....


----------



## SilentSniper

thesource-why are you trying to stur up the hornets nest? You opinion is noted. Go pick a fight at the schoolyard not here. :boink:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*cynic*



cynic said:


> But as I said before the definitions of each is vague and open for interpretation by each individual


and why we spend so much time talking about what terms mean.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it.
> .


And just because something doesn't yet exist doesn't meant it can't be fair chase. There are those that would like to qualify all new technology as unfair chase. So they can draw a line in the sand. I want through this discussion months ago, and came up with no compelling reason to discount the use of electronics, as an entire class of equipment, yet this is exactly what p&y have done to.....draw a line in the sand.

What a shame.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Pope and Young certainly say that its a hard and fast set of rules.
> 
> "or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
> 
> So all high tech other than electronics is okay? Please tell me what's not hard and fast about that and tell me that you'd lobby P&Y to change this hard and fast rule.


----------



## cynic

There are several issues here
1. We do not need P&Y to change anything, as they do not make the law,
they only help lobbying against certain changes that could impact their revenue and possibly force them to become an irrelevant organization
2. Those of us choosing to use a crossbow are not concerned about P&Y
as they have excluded our form of archery from their club
3. There is no need to lobby P&Y to changes. They will change themselves the benefit of revenue
4. P&Y rules are for those that are members. Their rules only govern their members

While P&Y was a forerunner in what todays game laws stem from, P&Y does not govern all bowhunters. To those of us that are not members or do not wish to be members, their rules and opinions/interpretations of what is and what is'nt are irrelevant. The Wildlife commision need to be the ones that decide what is and what isn't as they are they ones making the rules.


----------



## cynic

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> and why we spend so much time talking about what terms mean.


But talking amongst ourselves as to what a term means in a vague all inclusive form, means little in terms of the real definition.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Source,

I'm confused

First you said

*If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.*

shortly thereafter you said
*Of course, the P&Y rules of fair chase supersede your own opinions. They ARE hard and fast.*

You're suggesting that as long as you become more ethically stringent than the existing rules of Pope and Young, then its okay. True? Here is the bar. Do the limbo anyway you want, just make sure you get under it. 

Nothing is said of using the laws defined at the state level. Why not?

Yes they supersede his opinions for rules of record book entry. They shouldn't supersede the laws that we use as a society to govern hunting with either bows or crossbows. True?

Why does Pope and Young feel that they need to be hard and fast?

Have they ever changed their rules of fair chase? I think the answer is yes.
Do you have a history of the rule changes? Where can I find it?
I asked Pope and Young for it already. Directly.
I called them. They said they didn't have it. I'm sure the guy was up to his eyeballs in other more important things. I was thinking that maybe you have an awareness of the changes in rules, or even written documentation? How long have you been a member?

Its okay to say that we don't have the changes in rules, if you want to say that history is irrelevant, but I don't think that's where you're coming from.

If rules have changed before, why do they (you?) feel the need to stop now?
I think you said you wanted to add rules regarding high fence/baiting restrictions. Why not introduce that? 

What makes P&Y feel that they should stop the clock on what defines ethical treatment in an ever changing world?

Doesn't it feel exciting to be a part of someone's future history?
Or do you want to say...nope...I had no impact on the world...and kept it exactly the way I found it. You want to change some parts.

My last question is... what does it take to get P&Y to change _*their*_ definition of fair chase? How does the process work?

Thanks for answering ALL of my questions ;-)


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

cynic said:


> It is difficult to conceive of a s... out of time this morning. You get the point.


----------



## Free Range

> ByAce
> Tell you what, when archers start paying most of the bills we'll let them have their say? As it is NOW, they are a minoirty in KY and thus, while they pay their fair share, it's not nearly enough to let them decide seasons for others....period...


Just more proof you don’t “really” care about bowhunting, now do you? 



> Much less to "deserve" or be "entitled" to an "exclusive season"??



Again, you are proving you are no friend to bowhunting. Real bowhunters, fight for their season, not against it. 



> THAT is the question......and you have not answered it at all with one fact.....or any data.......that is the difference in fact and opinions.......WE have facts and data on our side (for a small example NO harm to the resources, and yet more opportunity for archers).....you guys have only opinions and when compared to the actual, facts and data, they just don't amount to much imho


Wow after over a week, and six times of asking you finally gave in and provided two facts. Of course they are not facts that show the x-bow as being good for bowhunting. 
Lets look at your facts, one, “NO harm to the resource” ok I will concede that there has been no harm to the resource. But neither would allowing rifle hunters to hunt during bow season, under restrictions as to harvest. The same for ML, or hand guns, and shotguns. Your fact is not unique to the x-bow, the same could be said about any weapon, or any method of hunting. So you saying that is the same as me saying you can use a x-bow from a tree stand. That is a fact, but has no relevance to the argument. 
Fact number two, “more opportunity for archers” again so what? Allowing archers to use a gun is giving them more opportunity too. Again where is the relevancy, all hunters have the same opportunity to hunt, yes it might be harder for some, and some might need special permission, and in some states some might have to use a gun. But they can all hunt, there are no limitations blocking the path of anyone that wants to get out and hunt. My proof is the two recent cases that were thrown out, one in AK and the other in ID, or MT can’t remember right off. Anyhow they both involved someone with a handicap suing to be allowed to hunt with a x-bow. The court ruled, and I’m paraphrasing here, that there is no legal right to hunt during bow season, unless you follow the rules of the season, as set by the state. And that all hunters have equal opportunity to hunt. 

So really what we have here is two non-relevant facts, that in your opinion apply to the issue at hand. Again for your facts to matter they must show that, by survey, and or exit poll, that the x-bow is good for bow season, and good for hunting over all. You have not, you have not shown that any real numbers of hunters have been retained, that would not have just switched to another form of hunting, no net gain. See when you set the standard of what is and is not considered a relevant fact, you sometimes throw the kids out of the bathwater.


----------



## cynic

Does your mommy know that you play on the internet when she's not there to supervise..This thread is about the crossbow and Fair chase..

*Fact number two, “more opportunity for archers” again so what?*
clearly shows you are only concerened about you and yours.

*You have not, you have not shown that any real numbers of hunters have been retained, that would not have just switched to another form of hunting, no net gain*

But by them staying with archery equipment they have been retained as archery hunters. Why should they have to switch or be forced to switch? Many archery hunters switch at the change of season without any reason other than personal choice..


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

aceoky said:


> WE(that is REAL bowhunters) are only concerned with what WE are doing, and why.......NOT what "Joe" and "Shirley" and "lil Johnny" may be using.....


Should there be poundage or fps limits on crossbows in any state?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

aceoky said:


> WE(that is REAL bowhunters) are only concerned with what WE are doing, and why.......NOT what "Joe" and "Shirley" and "lil Johnny" may be using.....


Should there be poundage or fps limits on any compound bow in any state.


----------



## Free Range

> Does your mommy know that you play on the internet when she's not there to supervise..This thread is about the crossbow and Fair chase..


My “Mother” passed away some years ago.



> But by them staying with archery equipment they have been retained as archery hunters. Why should they have to switch or be forced to switch?


I know this is a hard concept for some, but people get older, and sometimes they just can’t do the same things they use to. And anyhow, Source, Marvin, I and others are already on record saying that we are ok with people that have some physical limitation being allowed to use a x-bow during bow season. 

Now back to fair chase, using a x-bow during bow season is no more or less fair chase then it would be to use a gun during bow season.


----------



## Free Range

> Should there be poundage or fps limits on any compound bow in any state.


I say yes, bet Ace says no.


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> I say yes, bet Ace says no.


why a limit? most of us who teach are trying to educate people that shooting very heavy bows is deleterious to them and not needed for any deer


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Now back to fair chase, using a x-bow during bow season is no more or less fair chase then it would be to use a gun during bow season.


that is a stupid comment -you will try to defend it by saying fair chase is not implicated by using the wrong weapon is a certain season but given that most states allow-under some conditions xbows in archery season but not guns and while I can easily prove that allowing guns in a 3-4 month season would be deleterious to the herd and "unfair" in the fact that a gun has clear quantifiable advantages over bows none of archery apartheid advocates have come close to proving any such advantages with crossbows


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Just more proof you don’t “really” care about bowhunting, now do you?
> 
> Sure I do, however, I don't think, feel, or expect that WE should have an exclusive season where compounds are allowed, and crossbows are not...THEY are simply too similar to allow one and not the other, each have thier own advantages as has been proven many times, but when the "dust settles" not enough REAL difference to allow one and not the other......period
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are proving you are no friend to bowhunting. Real bowhunters, fight for their season, not against it.
> 
> First that's "subjective", YOU say I'm fighting against it, I AM fighting for INCLUSION of another archery weapon during archery season, which is proven to NOT harm the resources, and does recruit and retain archers, YOU say there is no proof, I say you refuse to accpept the facts that you've been shown many times only because it benefits your agenda to do so.......YOU are the one "fighting" against ALL of US........it's NOT us.....most are fully aware of that.......YOU judge others YOU have never met, and wish to decide whether they are allowed to participate, based soley upon their own CHOICE of archery weapon......anyone can see who IS fighting against all of OUR best interest......and it's you and yours...
> 
> 
> 
> Wow after over a week, and six times of asking you finally gave in and provided two facts. Of course they are not facts that show the x-bow as being good for bowhunting.
> Lets look at your facts, one, “NO harm to the resource” ok I will concede that there has been no harm to the resource. But neither would allowing rifle hunters to hunt during bow season, under restrictions as to harvest. The same for ML, or hand guns, and shotguns. Your fact is not unique to the x-bow, the same could be said about any weapon, or any method of hunting. So you saying that is the same as me saying you can use a x-bow from a tree stand. That is a fact, but has no relevance to the argument.
> 
> Thanks once again for YOUR *opinion* though I don't know why you think your opinion outweighs the "ton" of facts you've been presented with for over a year and a half
> 
> 
> Fact number two, “more opportunity for archers” again so what?
> There you have it folks!! So what? HE wants us to believe he's fighting FOR bowhunters, but ONLY when and IF they do it HIS way!!
> 
> Allowing archers to use a gun is giving them more opportunity too.
> Apples to Watermelons at best comparison, try again
> 
> 
> Again where is the relevancy, all hunters have the same opportunity to hunt, yes it might be harder for some, and some might need special permission, and in some states some might have to use a gun.
> 
> Again, do it YOUR way, OR hunt another season, it's GREAT for us that YOU don't have the final say though!
> 
> 
> But they can all hunt, there are no limitations blocking the path of anyone that wants to get out and hunt. My proof is the two recent cases that were thrown out, one in AK and the other in ID, or MT can’t remember right off. Anyhow they both involved someone with a handicap suing to be allowed to hunt with a x-bow. The court ruled, and I’m paraphrasing here, that there is no legal right to hunt during bow season, unless you follow the rules of the season, as set by the state. And that all hunters have equal opportunity to hunt.
> 
> THAT alone is reason enough to CHANGE the existing laws! Thank you!
> 
> So really what we have here is two non-relevant facts, that in your opinion apply to the issue at hand.
> Again subjective, and only YOUR opinion of how relevent they are......to many they ARE indeed relevent, including myself
> 
> 
> Again for your facts to matter they must show that, by survey, and or exit poll, that the x-bow is good for bow season, and good for hunting over all.
> 
> The simple FACT that they ALLOW another *choice* which allows MORE hunters the opportunity to archery hunt during archery season with an archery weapon is proof enough for most, who have an "open mind",and actually CARE ABOUT bowhunting, rather than trying to exclude other hunters......
> 
> 
> You have not, you have not shown that any real numbers of hunters have been retained, that would not have just switched to another form of hunting, no net gain. See when you set the standard of what is and is not considered a relevant fact, you sometimes throw the kids out of the bathwater.


BTW, why NOT *prove* that they're not recruited and retained? Because you can't! They ARE, we know it....you've seen more than ample proof, YOU however choose to ignore it, and in fact seem to think you're more "wise" than the experts......good move(for us) 


There is more than enough data to confirm, that hunter retention and recruitment is achieved by inclusion of the crossbow during archery season, the bad part(for you and yours) IS, as more states continue to do that.......there will be even more.......and you'll still only look worse.....because, when "it's all said and done", YOU and yours have not ONE *good reason *for excluding other archers.....other than YOU don't want to share, YOU try to "hide that fact" , by saying WE'll share, just do it our way.......again, that is NOT your (or yours) choice to make, which IS good for bowhunting.....:cocktail:


----------



## Free Range

> By Jim
> why a limit? most of us who teach are trying to educate people that shooting very heavy bows is deleterious to them and not needed for any deer


I should have been more clear, I meant yes to FPS, poundage is pretty much self limiting, with a bow.


----------



## thesource

I'll skip a couple of your posts and answer this one first, since I believe it summarizes some of the other points. I'll have to save some of it for later, as it is quite involved, I think.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Source,
> 
> I'm confused
> 
> First you said
> 
> *If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.*
> 
> shortly thereafter you said
> *Of course, the P&Y rules of fair chase supersede your own opinions. They ARE hard and fast.*
> 
> You're suggesting that as long as you become more ethically stringent than the existing rules of Pope and Young, then its okay. True? Here is the bar. Do the limbo anyway you want, just make sure you get under it.


Yes, that is exactly what I'm suggesting. The rules that Pope and Young have spelled out in detail ARE hard and fast. In addition to those, individuals should be analyzing and deciding if equipment or methods are giving them an improper or unfair advantage, and avoid doing those things as well.

If you believe in the principle of fair chase and you feel that something is providing you with an unfair advantage, it is your OBLIGATION to avoid doing it or using it.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Nothing is said of using the laws defined at the state level. Why not?


The bow hunting rules of fair chase are supplementary to the B&C rules of fair chase, where rule #1 says _Obey all applicable laws and regulations._



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Yes they supersede his opinions for rules of record book entry. They shouldn't supersede the laws that we use as a society to govern hunting with either bows or crossbows. True?
> 
> 
> oldbhtrnewequip said:
> 
> 
> 
> True to an extent. You MUST obey all hunting laws and regulations to even have a chance of complying with fair chase. In my opinion, you SHOULD follow the established rules of fair chase to even be considered an ethical hunter. Again in my opinion, you should also follow the SPIRIT of fair chase if you truly want to be an ethical hunter.
> 
> I believe that all hunter should strive to truly be ethical hunters.
Click to expand...


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> that is a stupid comment -you will try to defend it by saying fair chase is not implicated by using the wrong weapon is a certain season but given that most states allow-under some conditions xbows in archery season but not guns and while I can easily prove that allowing guns in a 3-4 month season would be deleterious to the herd and "unfair" in the fact that a gun has clear quantifiable advantages over bows none of archery apartheid advocates have come close to proving any such advantages with crossbows



Sure it is; but HERE is what he's *trying* to convince others of .....

if it looks like a gun, is held like a gun, and shoots like a gun, it must be a gun.

Which makes about as much sense! 

That leaves out, has the same velocity/trajectory("shoots like a gun").....he obviously has NO clue about such things!

if it looks like a gun,on a crossbow, WHERE is the barrel, and the breech?? is held like a gun, and shoots like a gun,(btw also guns go bang, and smoke comes out, crossbows don't "shoot like a gun" nor even close, thus by "your logic", YOU agree they are not thanks but we already know this..... it must be a gun.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Should there be poundage or fps limits on any compound bow in any state.


I think so.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Sure it is; but HERE is what he's *trying* to convince others of .....
> 
> if it looks like a gun, is held like a gun, and shoots like a gun, it must be a gun.
> 
> Which makes about as much sense!


Actually, what I hear him saying is:

if it looks like a gun, is held like a gun, and shoots like a gun, it sure ain't a bow!


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Actually, what I hear him saying is:
> 
> if it looks like a gun, is held like a gun, and shoots like a gun, it sure ain't a bow!



We can all read here, but.......

Thanks for your *opinion*..... 

It sure can't be a gun.....ask the ATF which category it fall into...... 

HINT: it shoots a broadhead tipped arrow, launched by a string under tension........exactly what a "bow" does......thus it is clear to everyone, that thing on the end, with the string IS a bow......thus the term crossBOW......

It's foolish to even try to convince anyone a short range archery weapon compares to a gun, but thanks you only help prove how far you guys will "reach" since you have *nothing* as far as facts and data on your side:darkbeer: 

It IS obvious what he's trying to establish, problem is, no one will buy that .....well a "few" might, but not enough to really matter most are intelligent enough to know they are not close to being similar......


----------



## Free Range

> Thanks once again for YOUR opinion though I don't know why you think your opinion outweighs the "ton" of facts you've been presented with for over a year and a half


No Ace, the proper response would be to point out why this is a relevant fact. I pointed out why it is not. We all have enough faith in the DNR’s at this point to accept they are not going to let there be damage to the herd. Well on second thought when you consider the wolf and it’s impact in ID and MT maybe they would. Saying there would be no damage to the herd is no more relevant to this discussion then saying we drive on the right side of the road in America. What is the benefit to hunting? We already have no damage to the herd, in fact we need more hunters to kill more deer in many states, and the x-bow is not increasing hunter numbers. 



> There you have it folks!! So what? HE wants us to believe he's fighting FOR bowhunters, but ONLY when and IF they do it HIS way!!


Nice try Ace, more opportunity (real opportunity) for bow hunters, would be longer season and or higher bag limits. Giving a bow hunter a different weapon and calling that more opportunity is a bogus argument. The second you give them another weapon they no longer are bow hunters, thus negating your so call more opportunity. If you said more opportunity for gun hunters to hunt during archery season, you might have been at least on the right track. 



> Again, do it YOUR way, OR hunt another season, it's GREAT for us that YOU don't have the final say though!


No different then doing it your way or hunt another season now is it Ace? You say hunt with a bow or x-bow or hunt another season, I say hunt with a bow or hunt another season, Ace, that is not a very good position there partner. 



> THAT alone is reason enough to CHANGE the existing laws! Thank you!


And what do you tell the person that thinks their handicap precludes them from shooting any kind of bow? It’s ok for them to use a gun, or it’s ok for them to use a remote gun hooked to a computer at home? Just where do you draw the line, or is there no lines in your world? 



> Again subjective, and only YOUR opinion of how relevent they are......to many they ARE indeed relevent, including myself


I know you are smarter then this Ace, are you really saying my opinion is subjective and yours is not. I say your facts, these two, are not relevant, and that is subjective, you say my facts are not relevant but that is not subjective? 



> The simple FACT that they ALLOW another choice which allows MORE hunters the opportunity to archery hunt during archery season with an archery weapon is proof enough for most, who have an "open mind",and actually CARE ABOUT bowhunting, rather than trying to exclude other hunters......


Allowing more to hunt is far from it actually having that affect, for it to be a benefit it must actually get more to hunt, and it hasn’t. 



> BTW, why NOT prove that they're not recruited and retained? Because you can't! They ARE, we know it....you've seen more than ample proof, YOU however choose to ignore it, and in fact seem to think you're more "wise" than the experts......good move(for us)


I have shown you the numbers from state after state showing that hunter numbers are falling. I don’t know what else to show you, if you don’t agree with those numbers then find some place that shows we are not in a downward trend, that would be great news. 



> There is more than enough data to confirm, that hunter retention and recruitment is achieved by inclusion of the crossbow during archery season, the bad part(for you and yours) IS, as more states continue to do that.......there will be even more.......and you'll still only look worse.....because, when "it's all said and done", YOU and yours have not ONE good reason for excluding other archers.....other than YOU don't want to share, YOU try to "hide that fact" , by saying WE'll share, just do it our way.......again, that is NOT your (or yours) choice to make, which IS good for bowhunting.....



Again, we are not excluding hunters, just weapon types, if you have a problem with that then you must have a problem with excluding any weapon type, to do otherwise is hypocritical at best.


----------



## Jim C

basing an argument on a specious claim that a crossbow is a gun or is no different than a firearm pretty much damns the claimant as having no credibility to debate this issue in my book


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> basing an argument on a specious claim that a crossbow is a gun or is no different than a firearm pretty much damns the claimant as having no credibility to debate this issue in my book


Agreed!

And fwiw, I DID post some relevent data that proves numbers are NO longer falling as they once were , fees,tags, etc. have gone up,(that couldn't have been a help)...... so one must assume at the very least SOME credit has to go to the more opportunity brought about by the crossbow, well, those who CARE about facts and data.....will anyway

Funny how FR keeps trying to say the facts and data have not been posted, when they're all over the net including right here, not to mention the ones I have shown him for over 18 months the truth is, he chooses to call facts , data and actual, factual stats "opinion", but somehow never produces anything other than his opinion to counter...it's "way old" and I see no good reason to continue....when one learns what IS fact or opinion, and the differences only then can anything be accomplished, he still claims there is NO evidence about recrutement and retention!!! We all KNOW better, as he should , he's seen the data and has been told in several forums by real hunters how they have seen it happen, YET HE *chooses* to disregard that........even from other hunters telling him!


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> basing an argument on a specious claim that a crossbow is a gun or is no different than a firearm pretty much damns the claimant as having no credibility to debate this issue in my book


Did anyone say it was a gun? Cause I guess I missed that. 

Anyone who ignores the obvious gunlike characteristics in both the design and operation of a crossbow and goes on to say it is 98% the same as a compound is pretty much damned as a crossbow pumping radical extremist with an obvious agenda and has no credibility to debate the issue in my book.


----------



## Free Range

> "way old" and I see no good reason to continue....


In other words, I have no real argument, so I will just not post any facts, and quit. Thanks for conceding.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> I know this is a hard concept for some, but people get older, and sometimes they just can’t do the same things they use to. And anyhow, Source, Marvin, I and others are already on record saying that we are ok with people that have some physical limitation being allowed to use a x-bow during bow season.
> 
> Now back to fair chase, *using a x-bow during bow season is no more or less fair chase then it would be to use a gun during bow season.*


THAT source is what you "missed", and it's a terrible argument for several obvious reasons.......


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Did anyone say it was a gun? Cause I guess I missed that.
> 
> Anyone who ignores the obvious gunlike characteristics in both the design and operation of a crossbow and goes on to say it is 98% the same as a compound is pretty much damned as a crossbow pumping radical extremist with an obvious agenda and has no credibility to debate the issue in my book.



wow source-not only are you unlearned about crossbows, you are unlearned about firearms. The most important aspect of a firearm is a detonation mechanism. NOt on a crossbow. Lets compare a crossbow with a compound

1) source of energy-flexible limbs
2) transfer of energy-a string contacting the arrow
3) projectile-a tubular arrow with stabilizing fletching-pretty much the same
4) method of firing (generally) pulling a trigger, releasing the string.
5) method of sighting-a one or two point scope or sight


I guess you are wrong again source


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> In other words, I have no real argument, so I will just not post any facts, and quit. Thanks for conceding.


other than your whining about having to share the woods- (which was one of the first posts you made on AT) have you ever provided anything else?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> In other words, I have no real argument, so I will just not post any facts, and quit. Thanks for conceding.


NO FR YOU don't!  

Keep on waiting for me to conceed...won't ever happen, the facts, data and all stats are on our side, you say they're not, yet how many states have expanded crossbows??? THAT should tell you and yours the truth, and your not wishing to accept facts as facts changes nothing....

No, I'm not "conceding" to anything other than it's a sheer waste of time to continue to prove what are facts while you maintain that they are "opinions" of various experts......when YOU prove YOU know more than them about their OWN respective states then and only then will YOU have any credibilty, thus, since you have not done so, I know you can not

AS I've said too often already I've shown plenty, YOU have seen it, dismissed it all, no matter the quoted source, you seem to "think" you know it all, against those who's actual job it is to set seasons and limits and study the data, IOW you are useless as far as I'm concerned in any further discussions being that you've made it very clear, you don't know what facts and data are........


Who knows, I just may make you eat "crow" one day, and post a bunch of your bs from other forums, PROVING what I've posted and how "silly" you looked and acted.....but I have food plots to maintain, a few gardens to work in now that it's not raining.....so that day won't be today:cocktail:


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> wow source-not only are you unlearned about crossbows, you are unlearned about firearms. The most important aspect of a firearm is a detonation mechanism. NOt on a crossbow. Lets compare a crossbow with a compound
> 
> 1) source of energy-flexible limbs
> 2) transfer of energy-a string contacting the arrow
> 3) projectile-a tubular arrow with stabilizing fletching-pretty much the same
> 4) method of firing (generally) pulling a trigger, releasing the string.
> 5) method of sighting-a one or two point scope or sight
> 
> 
> I guess you are wrong again source



Shame, shame.

This is exactly why, despite all of your archery background, you have no credibility and noone believes you.

Since we were talking about design and operation, and not function, I think you can understand that your mindless meanderings about detonation mechanisms are totally irrelevant - no one claimed xbows use gunpowder.

Your point by point comparison of compound is interesting, although obviously totally biased and incomplete.

No mention of a shoulder mounting stock or a forearm grip?
No mention that its drawn with a foot and both hands, or a rope, or a winch?
Glossing over fixed triggers and scopes and ignoring safeties doesn't keep the rest of us from knowing these are features found on guns.

No one buys it - you end up looking silly when you pretend that crossbows and guns don't share many common features.


----------



## Free Range

> THAT source is what you "missed", and it's a terrible argument for several obvious reasons.......


I thought we were talking about fair chase and if using the x-bow during bow season violates that? 



> other than your whining about having to share the woods- (which was one of the first posts you made on AT) have you ever provided anything else?


Actually Jim, if you would actually go back and look you will see that of my first 9 post only one had to do with the x-bow, at least as far back as the archives would let me go. 

January 31st Louisiana and the x-bow part II
January 31st Question about Archery Talk
January 5th Farm Bill changes bad for conservation
January 4th First Riding then Hunting??
December 30th 2005 Long Bow question
December 19th 2005 Video Schools – Have you been
December 13th 2005 P&Y club
December 13th 2005 P&Y Club
November 10th 2005 Define top compound archer

Not that hard to look up Jim, maybe you wouldn’t look so bad if you looked first.


----------



## Free Range

> Keep on waiting for me to conceed...won't ever happen,


Kind of like your facts? 

yet how many states have expanded crossbows???



> I don’t know 6 or 8?





> No, I'm not "conceding" to anything other than it's a sheer waste of time to continue to prove what are facts while you maintain that they are "opinions" of various experts......when YOU prove YOU know more than them about their OWN respective states then and only then will YOU have any credibilty, thus, since you have not done so, I know you can not


Ace every time I post facts with numbers, I quote them from the experts from those states. I could post them again for you, maybe if I do you will post yours, I think I will, hold on I will be back shortly. 





> Who knows, I just may make you eat "crow" one day, and post a bunch of your bs from other forums, PROVING what I've posted and how "silly" you looked and acted.....but I have food plots to maintain, a few gardens to work in now that it's not raining.....so that day won't be today


Who knows one day you might even post up a real fact.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Shame, shame.
> 
> This is exactly why, despite all of your archery background, you have no credibility and noone believes you.
> 
> Since we were talking about design and operation, and not function, I think you can understand that your mindless meanderings about detonation mechanisms are totally irrelevant - no one claimed xbows use gunpowder.
> 
> Your point by point comparison of compound is interesting, although obviously totally biased and incomplete.
> 
> No mention of a shoulder mounting stock or a forearm grip?
> No mention that its drawn with a foot and both hands, or a rope, or a winch?
> Glossing over fixed triggers and scopes and ignoring safeties doesn't keep the rest of us from knowing these are features found on guns.
> 
> No one buys it - you end up looking silly when you pretend that crossbows and guns don't share many common features.



lets take a poll SOurce
Who has more credibility on AT, me or you

Your blather about crossbows is a facade. We know the alleged differences between xbows and compounds is merely a pretext you use to hide what truly motivates your constant single minded beating of a dead horse

if anyone says a crossbow is closer to a firearm than a compound bow then they are truly stupid


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> I thought we were talking about fair chase and if using the x-bow during bow season violates that?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Jim, if you would actually go back and look you will see that of my first 9 post only one had to do with the x-bow, at least as far back as the archives would let me go.
> 
> January 31st Louisiana and the x-bow part II
> January 31st Question about Archery Talk
> January 5th Farm Bill changes bad for conservation
> January 4th First Riding then Hunting??
> December 30th 2005 Long Bow question
> December 19th 2005 Video Schools – Have you been
> December 13th 2005 P&Y club
> December 13th 2005 P&Y Club
> November 10th 2005 Define top compound archer
> 
> Not that hard to look up Jim, maybe you wouldn’t look so bad if you looked first.


pathetic sophistry-I said one of your first posts-you have 700 or so posts so limiting it to 9 is rather lame


----------



## Free Range

> I will start with trends in hunter and deer hunter numbers. As you can see from the figure below, both are declining, but the number of licensed hunters is dropping at a much sharper rate.
> By Michael Tonkovich, PhD
> Wildlife research biologist
> ODNR, Division of Wildlife
> 
> To hunt deer in Ohio, an individual must possess a valid hunting license (good for small game hunting) and a deer permit. We have a single deer permit, good for a deer of either-sex which is valid during any of our 4 deer seasons (archery, limited early-muzzleloader, gun, and statewide muzzleloader).
> Ohio has never had season-specific permits. As with all systems, our approach to managing the harvest has its share of pluses and minuses. It is much more manageable logistically than most other systems. However, we sacrifice a great deal of detail - detail that would help to answer your questions.
> Same as above


Now there are two facts, one showing you are wrong about the x-bow increasing hunter numbers, and one showing you are wrong about facts dealing with retention and older hunters. Ohio does not keep such records, so you can not have data from that state showing any facts regarding retention. 

Now it’s your turn, and be careful, I have quotes from VA, and GA, MD, pretty much stating the same thing.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> if anyone says a crossbow is closer to a firearm than a compound bow then they are truly stupid


Anyone who says a crossbow is 98% like a compound is truly stupid, too.

The truth is I have yet to see anyone but you and aceoky claim a crossbow is closer to a firearm.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Anyone who says a crossbow is 98% like a compound is truly stupid, too.
> 
> The truth is I have yet to see anyone but you and aceoky claim a crossbow is closer to a firearm.



NO one said that source-I said hunting deer with a crossbow involves 98% of the same skills as hunting with a compound

misquoting people is not only stupid but dishonest


----------



## Free Range

> pathetic sophistry-I said one of your first posts-you have 700 or so posts so limiting it to 9 is rather lame


Actually you said “other than your whining about having to share the woods- (which was one of the first posts you made on AT) have you ever provided anything else?” 

Notice the part about “have you ever posted anything else” I just showed you that of my first 9 post I did post something else 8 times. You are right that in my 700 post most of them are showing how there is no good reason for expanding the x-bow. If you want to call that whining you can, but at least in my 700 post I don’t call others derogatory names at near the frequency as you do. How many times in your last 20 post have you here let me count them for you. 

Number twenty: Sophistry
Number 19: they are truly stupid
Number 18: other than your whining
Number 17: good
Number 16: specious
Number 15: that is a stupid comment
Number 14: good
13: real psychotics
12: feeling inferior is what fueled the vast majority of your 2000 posts.
11: not only moronic
10: make a fool of yourself, your uninformed and ignorant attempts
9: good, somewhat
8: what stupidity.
7: you don't have the balls
6: It is you who is foolish
5: source is an anti hunter
4: your selfish and greedy desire
3: sorry Poop and Dung is a cult
2: good somewhat
1: good

These came from this thread and are in order from post 498 backwards. 5 out of twenty that did not attack someone. I didn’t even look at my last 20 post, so here is your chance to catch me, how many times did I attack someone?


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Actually you said “other than your whining about having to share the woods- (which was one of the first posts you made on AT) have you ever provided anything else?”
> 
> Notice the part about “have you ever posted anything else” I just showed you that of my first 9 post I did post something else 8 times. You are right that in my 700 post most of them are showing how there is no good reason for expanding the x-bow. If you want to call that whining you can, but at least in my 700 post I don’t call others derogatory names at near the frequency as you do. How many times in your last 20 post have you here let me count them for you.
> 
> Number twenty: Sophistry
> Number 19: they are truly stupid
> Number 18: other than your whining
> Number 17: good
> Number 16: specious
> Number 15: that is a stupid comment
> Number 14: good
> 13: real psychotics
> 12: feeling inferior is what fueled the vast majority of your 2000 posts.
> 11: not only moronic
> 10: make a fool of yourself, your uninformed and ignorant attempts
> 9: good, somewhat
> 8: what stupidity.
> 7: you don't have the balls
> 6: It is you who is foolish
> 5: source is an anti hunter
> 4: your selfish and greedy desire
> 3: sorry Poop and Dung is a cult
> 2: good somewhat
> 1: good
> 
> These came from this thread and are in order from post 498 backwards. 5 out of twenty that did not attack someone. I didn’t even look at my last 20 post, so here is your chance to catch me, how many times did I attack someone?


You want to restrict others from using similar equipment in a recreational activity based on a false sense that you are more entitled to that season than others

that says it all


----------



## Free Range

> You want to restrict others from using similar equipment in a recreational activity based on a false sense that you are more entitled to that season than others
> 
> that says it all


See you can do it without attacking. You are wrong, I don’t think I, individually am more entitled, but I do think bow hunters are more entitled to it. So I guess if we can agree on that then we have nothing further to argue about. I know now you’re going to ask why?


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> See you can do it without attacking. You are wrong, I don’t think I, individually am more entitled, but I do think bow hunters are more entitled to it. So I guess if we can agree on that then we have nothing further to argue about. I know now you’re going to ask why?



I don't care-I already know the answer


----------



## aceoky

*So What?*

*By Michael Tonkovich, PhD 
Wildlife research biologist
ODNR, Division of Wildlife

Notice that Free Range did not post any way to verify what I was supposed to have said, nor did he include any tables or data or anything, that proves anything......*

___________________________________________________________________
SEE how easy that is?? :darkbeer: Anyone can do that....

MY facts and data provide links to verify, what I have found yours not only do not, they are not even close to anything that has been STATED IN PUBLIC e.g. Dept web-sites etc.etc.etc.

Thus, I contend, that your saying it(or posting it) without any way to veryify what was, or may have been told is as worthless as your opinions on why crossbows shouldn't be expanded, and why if they are guns will be NOTE IN OHIO, after 30 years that has not happened, your reply "not yet"!!

If it hasn't in 30 years, I'd say it's a safe bet your "spin" came back and bit you on that one as it has on many, many more.......just as YOU have been told many times by hunters in Tennessee they or someone they know very well took up hunting BECAUSE of the crossbow YOU then want to know......did they "gun" hunt before, who cares??

IF they're ONLY new to archery(many are NEW hunters btw).......that is a "good thing", and most would realize that, your contention that IF they may have hunted 10 years ago with a gun(or whenever, whatever), doesn't mean "squat" the fact they NOW hunt does, and since they are archery hunting, most should know that is good for us all.......only those few who like you who look for ANY "excuse" to try to prove you're so right don't see those facts or don't see them as "relevent" to you few.....


----------



## aceoky

*One*

HERE is ONE post from the Tenn forum, you should KNOW who posted this, and btw he's not pro-crossbow.....

If I had to guess, yes, I would say that our trend looks like that as well and will continue.

I think without question, *the number of hunters over 65 increased with the legalization of crossguns.* To what percentage I don't know, but *I would think there would have been several guys over 65 that normally would not have purchased an archery license, that did so last year due to the legalization.*

NOW you'll say that's his opinion, but you'll leave out the FACT that he lives there is only reporting on what he's seen and witnessed and most there (if not all) know he wouldn't have said it if he didn't know it to be true, so .....there it is....more PROOF that it does add hunters ....there are more on women and youth too btw :cocktail:


----------



## Jim C

aceoky said:


> HERE is ONE post from the Tenn forum, you should KNOW who posted this, and btw he's not pro-crossbow.....
> 
> If I had to guess, yes, I would say that our trend looks like that as well and will continue.
> 
> I think without question, *the number of hunters over 65 increased with the legalization of crossguns.* To what percentage I don't know, but *I would think there would have been several guys over 65 that normally would not have purchased an archery license, that did so last year due to the legalization.*
> 
> NOW you'll say that's his opinion, but you'll leave out the FACT that he lives there is only reporting on what he's seen and witnessed and most there (if not all) know he wouldn't have said it if he didn't know it to be true, so .....there it is....more PROOF that it does add hunters ....there are more on women and youth too btw :cocktail:


the source has said that xbow hunters are people who were too lazy to learn how to shoot a real bow so by definition, every crossbow hunter in states that allow them are people who joined the bow season only because of the crossbow


----------



## aceoky

Forget where I found this one, but I saved it, let's see what it says shall we......:cocktail: 
_________________________________________

I don’t know how well you’ve been paying attention to the kid’s pictures that have graced these pages, but several of them have taken their harvest with a crossbow. 

- Fact - There are thousands of sportsmen and women out there who would love to try bow hunting but can’t because they can’t pull a covenantal bow back. 

What does my father, Tom Sunderlin, use at 78 years old? A 150-pound pull Horton Hunter that he bought 15 years ago. We have a matched set. You see, he bought mine for me as a birthday present. Although I seldom use it anymore, I will own it until the day I hopefully pass it on to a grandchild. 

What did my daughter, Stacey, use when she started out at 10 years old? My Horton. Now, she has her own, a Horton Excalibur, 175-pound pull, with a Red Dot scope on it. She’s high tech! 



The anti’s will pick us apart and attack our weakest link in the chain if we fight among ourselves.

So let’s stand together and, "Pass it on or, surely, it will pass on."

__________________________________

A man buys his NEW to hunting wife a crossbow in Tenn>

Well i bought her a horton yukon sl package from bass pro just the other night. I tried to talk her into buying a xl 150 but she didnt like the stock for some reason??? She liked the look and feel of the yukon better but heck besides the trigger there pretty close on performance i guess. Not a bad price either $229.88 for a complete package plus i have the scope rail and a horton crossbow scope from a yukon we had a while back. See thats another thing she had shot that yukon before im sure she has a feel for it. So her setup this year will be a horton yukon sl with scope shooting 20" carbon mx horton arrows with 100 grain muzzy 3 blade broadheads. 

__________________________________

But wait there IS more!

Wisconsin Numbers......

2000 archery permits 177,954 over 65 5976
2002 Archery permits 138,011 over 65 5266 (1st year w/65 and over and CWD scare)
2003 Archery Permits 158,650 over 65 7254
2004 archery permits 170,298 over 65 8848


___________________________________

MD is VERY interesting as well.....though you said otherwise about both states....

No. of MD Seniors who purchased a bow stamp:
2002-03 359
2003-04 699 Start of 65+ crossbow season
2004-05 1,084
2005-06 1,379

Based on our licensing and harvest *databases*, this year we had approximately 150 different senior hunters (out of about 5,000 that bought a hunting license) take at least one deer with a crossbow compared to about 125 different senior hunters take at least one with a vertical bow. If you assume about half were successful, that means we probably had about 300 or so senior crossbow hunters

As far as percentages, successful senior crossbowers represented about 8% of all successful crossbowers compared to only 1% for vertical bows - so I'd say they like the crossbow. Keep in mind though that our overall crossbow kill is still relatively small compared to the total bowharvest (3,174 total deer this year, or roughly 15% of the total "bow" harvest). 

Seniors killed about 400 deer this year with a "bow" (about 60% of those with a crossbow). So overall, their kill with a crossbow was about 1% of the total "bow" harvest. Looking at the total harvest, seniors took about 3% of the total deer harvest this year.

---------------------------------------------------

NOW I ask you......exactly where is the decline you boasted about?? Even with "seniors" cb tags.......it IS helping as that proves......once again........MYTH BUSTED !:darkbeer: 


_


----------



## aceoky

*Retailers in particular have seen interest spike since crossbows were approved for general use, including special archery seasons.*

"We're selling quite a few already. *It's very popular*," said Glen Harper, archery manager at Green Top Sporting Goods in Hanover County.

According to "Today's Crossbow," a booklet published by the National Bowhunter Education Foundation,* "Ballistic tests show that there is very little, if any, difference in the impact of broadhead-tipped arrows shot from a crossbow and a compound bow."*

_______________________________________-

How many of your "claims" have I just proven what they are so far? But there is more still

________________________________________

Crossbow's relative simplicity may boost ranks of hunters 

By Bob Humphrey Copyright © 2004 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc. E-mail this story to a friend 

I've heard a lot of negative things about crossbows. Personally, I've always thought they got an unnecessarily bad rap. But I also felt I couldn't be completely objective until I had a chance to hunt with one myself. 

That opportunity came recently when Wade Nolan, who runs the Whitetail University, invited me on an Ohio crossbow hunt. 

Ohio is a particularly fitting locale, as it was one of the first states to allow crossbow hunting. It also has one of the nation's healthiest deer herds, and like a growing number of states, has an urban-suburban deer problem. 

I had the pleasure of sharing camp with several other outdoor writers, including C.J. Winand (Bowhunter magazine), Jimmy Sites (Spiritual Outdoor Adventures), Tim Lilley (Quality Deer Management Association), Brenda Valentine (Whitetail Adventures) and Mike Kaye and Tim Lajoie (CamoCountry TV). 

Also there were representatives from several prominent companies in the archery industry, including Ameristep, Carbon Express, Frigid Forage, Tink's and Ten Point Crossbows. 

Because Ohio's regulations permit the use of crossbows or vertical bows during the state's archery season, we all got a chance to hunt with a Ten Point crossbow. Before we did, however, we were treated to a couple of interesting and enlightening presentations from Dave Robb of Ten Point and Mike Tonkovich, a deer biologist with Ohio's Department of Natural Resources. 

*Tonkovich provided some facts and figures on Ohio's deer, the effects of crossbow hunting and how the state stacks up in terms of trophy bucks. According to the National Bowhunter Education Foundation, which supports crossbow hunting, crossbows are permitted for some type of hunting in all but eight states. *

A bit "different" than some have claimed btw....


Crossbows became a legal hunting implement in Ohio in 1976, and 27 deer were killed in the inaugural season. Since 1982, they were permitted through the entire four-month archery season. 

The national crossbow kill increased annually from 1986 through 1994, peaking at 16,306 before falling for four consecutive years. During the 2003-2004 season, crossbow hunters killed 29,397 deer, while vertical bowhunters killed 21,167 deer. 

*Meanwhile, according to records from the Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young clubs, Ohio ranks fourth in the nation in terms of trophy entries. However, Tonkovich added that the largest deer taken in North America in 1999 was shot in Ohio; and the third-largest taken in 2000 was shot in Ohio, the same year Mike Beatty arrowed the largest buck ever taken by a hunter. *


*Furthermore, the Buckeye Big Buck Club recognized 716 whitetails (with a score of 140 inches or more) at its March 2004 banquet. Of those, 37 qualified for the B&C record books, including 11 that scored over 200 inches. Clearly, the Ohio deer herd is thriving. *


*Interestingly, vertical bowhunters have consistently posted a higher success rate than crossbow hunters.* 

Imagine that, so much for the crossbow's "advantage" and the whole "fair chase" fiasco......:darkbeer: 


While it's difficult to substantiate, Tonkovich speculated that may be because crossbows are attracting a different type of hunter. He suspects that many are coming over from the ranks of gun hunters, who are used to a different style of hunting. They, like many others, mistakenly assume the crossbow has greater capabilities than the vertical bow. 

Robb provided some illuminating facts on the crossbows' mechanisms. Because it has much shorter limbs, the crossbow must have a higher draw weight -- usually around 150 pounds, as compared to 70 pounds for the compound bow -- to achieve the same energy and speed. 

*The velocity, energy and effective range of both are quite similar, with the compound bow actually having a slight edge. *
Is this NOT what JimC and I have said all along???


Essentially, the only difference is that the crossbow can be held in the cocked position, while the compound must be drawn when an animal is at close range. 

One major advantage of the crossbow is that it is much easier to set up and learn to shoot. Because the time required to become proficient is reduced, it is more attractive to many hunters who might otherwise be intimidated by getting into archery hunting. 

*This is particularly true of younger and older hunters. *

*In fact, Tonkovich pointed out that while only 40 percent of all hunters in the middle-aged range used crossbows, roughly 80 percent of seniors used them.*

Thus, that IS the real group you guys want to keep out.......facts don't lie


*Several of the hunters present provided personal anecdotes of their parents or friends who, were it not for crossbows, would have had to give up archery hunting because of physical limitations. *


After seminars, it was finally time to field-test our bows. My opportunity came in the fading afternoon light, when a small doe made her way toward my ladder stand. 

*Despite the advantage of not having to draw my bow, I found it surprisingly difficult to get into shooting position in the presence of the sharp-eyed doe, and then wait for her to present a bow-range shot. *


She finally did, however, and I made it count. We never did bag any of those bragging-sized Ohio bucks, though several came tantalizingly close to some of my camp mates. 

Several more does were taken at the request of those on whose land we hunted. They were corn and soybean farmers, and to them, the deer are a plague. We were glad to oblige, and what venison didn't go home with other hunters was donated to the local Salvation Army. 

All in all, it was a positive experience. We hunters benefited from discovering a new form of hunting recreation. The state of Ohio benefited from our license dollars, and presumably our spreading the word on the wonderful hunting opportunities available there. And the landowners benefited from a reduction in crop-raiding deer. 

*With burgeoning whitetail populations in urban, suburban and rural areas, and static hunter numbers, state agencies are increasingly looking for ways to recruit or retain more hunters, particularly the younger and older. Ohio provides testament that the crossbow is one way to accomplish that, without any negative effects on the resource. *BOB HUMPHREY is a freelance writer

That includes dispelling misconceptions about crossbows' range and power. For whitetail, a shot of about 40 yards is max.


----------



## aceoky

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ggoutdoors.org/ezine/Vol3No3/crossbow.html


The Crossbow Is Here To Stay!

By C.J. Winand If there’s one subject that sparks heated debate among bowhunters it’s the use of crossbows, specifically if it’s within their archery season. 

*The venom some anti-crossbow folks advance verges on feelings we have toward the anti-hunting groups.*


In 2004, Alabama’s Conservation Advisory Board passed a sweeping change that implemented the use of crossbows during the entire archery season. When the law was signed a Birmingham News writer said, “For those traditionalists who believe anything makes hunting easier is a sin, this year Alabama’s great outdoors went to hell in a hand basket.” So far in 2005,Kentucky and Virginia are the latest states to pass a law allowing crossbows into the entire bow season.

EDIT: WAS true when written as I explaind the "bow groups" managed to change that in Ky, but I don't expect the change to last very long...

Whether we like it or not, crossbows are here to stay. In an attempt to look at this controversial topic I decided to give crossbows a try and look at their impact on our deer herd. Along with being a *wildlife biologist*, for the last 25 years I’ve been a dyed-in-the-wool compound hunter and five years prior, a recurve hunter. 


Like most folks, change doesn’t come easy for me. Instead of criticizing something I never tried, I decided to give the crossbow a chance.

The first deer I shot with a crossbow was a unique experience. After a mature doe and two fawns walked out of my shooting lane, I flipped over my Primos “Can.” The bleat call worked like magic and the doe came back within 20-yards. Within a second my hunting instincts took over and I raised and fired my TenPoint crossbow. After an easy 50-yard tracking job I said, my customary hunter’s prayer. But the best word to express my feeling right then was guilt. Why did I feel so guilty with my first crossbow deer? Maybe it was admitting that I was changing my thoughts about crossbows.

The following day I shot my first buck with a crossbow. *I then realized that nothing really had changed in my heart. I still enjoyed the challenge of getting close to the buck and being able to judge the distance. In fact, the excitement of taking these deer with my TenPoint crossbow was as fulfilling as any hunt. Yes, it was awkward to hold and raise a horizontal bow, but comparing a crossbow to a firearm was definitely not the case for me.* 


*If nothing else, I learned that crossbows are more like my compound than I ever realized.*


Why then, do many folks feel that the crossbow is the anti-Christ of all weapons? The best I can come up with is plain and simple . . . Greed! 

Like it or not, crossbow hunters are increasing and seem to be the way of the future throughout North America. 

As of 2005, 11 states allow crossbows for able-bodied hunters during their traditional archery season and seven states do not allow them at all, even for physically challenged bowhunters. 


In New York, crossbows are illegal for handicapped hunters unless they are modified with a breath tube trigger. After a hard fought battle in 2004, Alabama allowed crossbows during the entire archery season, while Pennsylvania allows crossbows in the Urban Zones and during their firearm seasons.

Arguments for keeping crossbows out of the hunting season are varied. The more prominent arguments include: Permitting crossbows in the bow season will decimate or severely reduce the deer population; allowing crossbows will reduce the length of the archery-only seasons; crossbows are unsafe and a preferred poaching weapon; 

crossbow hunters are less ethical and less dedicated than conventional bowhunters; and allowing crossbows will decrease the success rate of conventional bowhunters.

Let’s look at these aforementioned arguments and compare them to the facts and figures from states that have a crossbow season and the biological impact they have on the deer herds.

Permitting crossbows in the bow season will severely reduce the deer population by increasing harvest rates and success rates.
The states of Arkansas (1973) and Ohio (1976) have one of the longest running crossbow seasons. Both states allow vertical bow and crossbows within the same archery season. In 1989, the crossbow deer harvest in Ohio exceeded the vertical bow harvest for the first time. This same trend has continued. In 2004, crossbow hunters took about 29,000 deer (58 percent) and vertical bowhunters took 21,000 (42 percent). Additionally, both crossbow and vertical bow hunters enjoy about 1.8 millions recreational days each.

In 1994, Ohio established urban deer units. Deer in these urban areas were prone to under-harvest and overabundance. Typically, these areas account for five percent of the total deer harvest. Once established, crossbows accounted for about 35 percent of all deer harvested in these urban areas. By comparison, crossbow hunters take 15 percent of the total deer harvest outside the urban areas, while vertical bowhunters take 10 percent.

*Overall, the success rate between crossbow and vertical bowhunters are similar, averaging about 14 percent.*


*In Arkansas, the latest survey indicates a success rate of 12 percent for crossbows, while vertical bowhunters enjoy a 17 percent success rate. *

Well, source, there you have some real hard data.......proving you're wrong....hmmm imagine that

Last year’s data shows that Arkansas crossbow hunters only took 3.3 percent of the total deer harvest, while vertical bowhunters took 6.6 percent. 

Interestingly, this data has been consistent through the last number of years. Participation rates for Arkansas and Ohio have also been similar, *increasing* from less than five percent in the early 1980s to over 35 percent of all deer hunters.

Data from deer biologists in both states say, *“Contrary to claims by anti-crossbow groups of herd decimation and severe restrictions on hunting opportunity and harvest, neither one of our states have modified our respective regulations as a result of the crossbow.* Modern firearms have and will always account for the majority of the harvest and have the greatest impact on deer populations in both Ohio and Arkansas.”

Although each state has large differences in crossbow harvest, the data clearly states that crossbows are not causing any negative impacts on their deer herds. In fact, the opposite is true, especially in the area of urban deer management. 

*Data from Ohio * also suggests that about *20 percent of all bowhunters hunt with both vertical and crossbows. It’s believed many of these hunters use their vertical bows in the early season and then switch to the crossbows for the late season.*


*The state of Georgia made crossbows legal during the archery season in 2002. Wildlife biologist, Nick Nicholson of the Georgia DNR reports that during the second year of crossbow use an estimated 9,300 new archery hunters participated in the archery deer season. *

NEW archery hunters due to the crossbow


*The vast majority of these new crossbow hunters, or over 6,900 hunters, indicated that they were new to archery hunting. *

Additionally, Nicholson reports a large portion of these crossbow hunters were over 50 years old. 

*Many of these folks were most likely retired archery hunters who came back to archery hunting through the use of crossbows. *


(Continued due to length)


----------



## aceoky

*Part Two (continued)*

The *Ohio data *also reflects a crossbow preference among older hunters. They found that among regular (non-senior) archery hunters, participation mirrored the harvest.


Approximately 55 percent of archers hunted with a crossbow and 45 percent used a vertical bow. However, among senior hunters, the split was closer to 80:20 in favor of crossbows.

*The Georgia data from 2003-04 indicates that the number of crossbow hunters comprised 24.8 percent of all archery hunters (or, 1 crossbow hunter per 4 compound / traditional bowhunter) and 9.1 percent of all hunters.*


*The Georgia DNR also calculated the success rate of crossbow hunters. Crossbow hunters took 21.8 percent of the total archery harvest and only 2.6 percent of the total deer harvest. When you compare the success rate of crossbow hunters (.49 deer per hunter) with compound / traditional hunters (.51 deer per hunter) the data is almost identical. *


These results suggest whatever additional deer are taken with crossbows are not significant on a statewide basis. In fact, with the very liberal deer season limit in Georgia, any additional deer taken with whatever weapon is most welcomed.

In addition to Arkansas, Ohio and Georgia the states of Alabama (2004), Virginia (2005), and Wyoming (no one knows the actual year crossbows were legalized crossbows, evidently, it’s always been on the books as a legal weapon) allow crossbows during the entire archery season. In these states the bow season has not been shorten or restricted. In fact, some of these states have *increased their archery season length and bag limits due to burgeoning deer populations.*


Crossbows are unsafe and are a preferred poaching weapon.
When we consider the millions of days of field hunting, it isn’t surprising that some accidents will occur. Still, hunting is among the safest of almost all recreational activities. A report from the National Safety Council in 1999 determined that you have a better chance of being injured in a ping-pong game than in a hunting accident! Although many would question this fact, think about it. Because hunting accidents are so rare, this makes them more newsworthy. Thus, the perception that’s given within newspapers or television is totally different than reality. The bottom line is, on a per capita ratio all hunting is safe!

Everyone agrees that one accident is one too many and organizations such as the National Bowhunter Education Foundation and the International Hunter Educational Association have been reducing hunting accidents for years.


Crossbow hunters are less ethical and dedicated than conventional bowhunters.????


Many anti-crossbow groups suggest that crossbow hunters are less ethical, lazy and dedicated than conventional bowhunters. 

Not only is this very judgmental, *but no data exists to prove this. *

Why are hunters so critical of crossbows? Maybe it’s because they’re jealous of anyone’s prowess and any attempt to lessen their chance of taking a deer is viewed as hostile. 

*Maybe some of these awfully self-righteous individuals can remember back in the mid to late 1970’s when traditional bowhunters were saying the same thing when compound bows were brought into the market place. Not only was this incorrect, but to judge another hunter because of his weapon choice is simply wrong. Additionally, many would argue the technological leap from traditional bows to compound bows is much greater than moving from compound bows to crossbows. *


Allowing crossbows will reduce the length of the archery-only seasons or restrict the number of deer a hunter can harvest.????

Although this is a valid concern, no state has ever reduced or cut back on the total days a bow hunter can hunt or the deer season limit because of crossbows. 

*In fact, with burgeoning deer populations the reverse has occurred in many of the states that currently allow crossbows. Will the success rate increase for states consider making crossbows legal? Most definitely, and if all bowhunters don’t start taking more deer, specifically more antlerless deer, the state DNR's will have no other option but to bring firearms into the archery season. Many states are already starting to do this with early season muzzleloader seasons. More radical is to extend the firearm season into the archery seasons.*


It must be remembered that gun hunters are the ones who significantly manage our deer herds. Excluding some urban areas, our firearm friends are the real management tools that control deer populations. And although success rates for compound bow hunters have increased throughout the years, like it or not, state deer biologists will always depend on firearm hunters to control burgeoning deer populations. In areas where firearms are not allowed, data suggests that crossbow hunters have done nothing but help the existing deer herd.

Conclusion:

Many argue the real reason why so many archery hunters dislike the crossbow is because they don’t want anyone else reducing their chance of shooting a deer.

Not only is this self-centered, it’s counter productive to the deer herd and those who have dedicated their lives to manage deer. 


Since there isn’t any biological evidence for not adopting crossbows into the deer season, maybe everyone in the hunting fraternity should welcome these hunters?

Hunters should know wildlife biologists are very conservative folks. We have a responsibility to the deer herd and their habitat. Hypothetically speaking, if hunters wanted a sling-shot season for deer and it reduced the deer herd, biologists would support it. As most hunters would agree, there surely doesn’t seem to be a shortage of deer.

Since wildlife agencies manage our deer herds, crossbow opponents will have a very hard time arguing they will have a negative impact on our ever-growing deer herd.


Like it or not, crossbows are coming to your state. 


Personally, I’d share the woods with anyone, but I would much prefer welcoming our crossbow brethren into the archery season than to see wildlife agencies introduce earlier season firearm days.


As states continue to attempt to trim deer herds, bowhunters must do a better job of harvesting more does or other hunting methods will surely replace bowhunting. Either way, more hunters introduced to various types of hunting are good in the long run. There’s power in numbers and since only 8 percent of the country hunts, our sport needs everyone to participate as team players.

*Past data indicates the majority of bow hunters in this country started out as gun hunters.*

Intersting fact; based on real data......hmm, yet some insist on speaking out against gun hunters......wise...probably not


*This progression could be significant as the potential crossbow recruitment of youngsters, women and older hunters will undoubtedly increase hunter participation*. 


With all the anti-hunting rhetoric in today’s society, any and all hunters are a valued commodity we shouldn’t take for granted. 

Thus, it makes sense to embrace these new crossbow hunters to be part of the fraternity we call hunting. Even though I’ll still hold onto my trusty Mathews compound bow, I surely won’t discredit anyone who hunts with a crossbow. Maybe you should too.


Yeah, I have nothing......that's "funny" :cocktail: :darkbeer: 

And again, you KNOW there are "tons" more as I've said

I think we can now easily see, that the crossbow and "fair chase" are every bit the same as the compound and "fair chase" IF one is, the other has to be........period.......and I've now proven it, though we've said it throughout the entire posts.....


----------



## PMantle

aceoky said:


> Conclusion:
> 
> Many argue the real reason why so many archery hunters dislike the crossbow is because they don’t want anyone else reducing their chance of shooting a deer.


Problem: I've yet to see anyone advocate a limit to the number of archery licenses sold. 

Problem: Every private club I've heard of sets limits to their membership. Why?


----------



## aceoky

PMantle said:


> Problem: I've yet to see anyone advocate a limit to the number of archery licenses sold.
> 
> Problem: Every private club I've heard of sets limits to their membership. Why?


Sure they do; but I'm guessing you're meaning whitetail deer, not Elk or bear etc. etc.???

It's simply not needed for whitetail deer in any state, or it would be done, one can't really compare a private club, making money off what is there to hunt with the state and their managing of the resources??? Which is done for overall herd health, as the first goal, NOT say antler size(which most clubs do).......


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *In Arkansas, the latest survey indicates a success rate of 12 percent for crossbows, while vertical bowhunters enjoy a 17 percent success rate. *
> 
> Well, source, there you have some real hard data.......proving you're wrong....hmmm imagine that


LOL .... you're kidding, right?

Your "survey" doesn't matter. AR does noy know how many xbow hunters there are or what they have harvested.

That's not "hard data."

The ONLY hard data is out of VA, and it shows that rookie xbow hunters outharvested (by %) experienced bowhunters.

Spin that.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *The state of Georgia made crossbows legal during the archery season in 2002. Wildlife biologist, Nick Nicholson of the Georgia DNR reports that during the second year of crossbow use an estimated 9,300 new archery hunters participated in the archery deer season. *
> 
> NEW archery hunters due to the crossbow
> 
> 
> *The vast majority of these new crossbow hunters, or over 6,900 hunters, indicated that they were new to archery hunting. *
> 
> Additionally, Nicholson reports a large portion of these crossbow hunters were over 50 years old.
> 
> *Many of these folks were most likely retired archery hunters who came back to archery hunting through the use of crossbows. *


LOL .... more idiotic spin.


"NEW archery hunters due to the crossbow / Many of these folks were most likely retired archery hunters who came back to archery hunting through the use of crossbows."

WHICH is it - it obviously can't be both.....DUH.


----------



## cynic

Only you state rookie xbow hunters and that is only an assumption by you.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *The vast majority of these new crossbow hunters, or over 6,900 hunters, indicated that they were new to archery hunting. *


That means they are GUN hunters.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> These results suggest whatever additional deer are taken with crossbows are not significant on a statewide basis.


Oops ... there goes your herd management arguement!


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL .... more idiotic spin.
> 
> 
> "NEW archery hunters due to the crossbow / Many of these folks were most likely retired archery hunters who came back to archery hunting through the use of crossbows."
> 
> WHICH is it - it obviously can't be both.....DUH.


Great not only did it recruit new archery hunters it gave many former archery hunters a new light. So it recruited new and made it possible for previous archery hunters to find there way back thus retaining. Notice also that it says retired not older..many retire at a young age


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Oops ... there goes your herd management arguement!


But also negates the detrement and thus no reason to exclude them.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Many anti-crossbow groups suggest that crossbow hunters are less ethical, lazy and dedicated than conventional bowhunters.
> 
> Not only is this very judgmental, *but no data exists to prove this. *


LOL - no data exists to refute it, either! 



aceoky said:


> Additionally, many would argue the technological leap from traditional bows to compound bows is much greater than moving from compound bows to crossbows. [/B]


Of course, many would argue that is no true to....including 83 archery organizations in the NABC, 70% of those polled on AT, and yours truly!


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *In fact, with burgeoning deer populations the reverse has occurred in many of the states that currently allow crossbows. Will the success rate increase for states consider making crossbows legal? Most definitely, and if all bowhunters don’t start taking more deer, specifically more antlerless deer, the state DNR's will have no other option but to bring firearms into the archery season. Many states are already starting to do this with early season muzzleloader seasons. More radical is to extend the firearm season into the archery seasons.*


Bogus scare tactics. Archery Season has NEVER been about herd management .... guns and permits take care of that.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> As most hunters would agree, there surely doesn’t seem to be a shortage of deer.


Not in NY, VT, and PA ... hunters are HOWLING at the precipitous drop in the herd numbers.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL .... you're kidding, right?
> 
> Your "survey" doesn't matter. AR does noy know how many xbow hunters there are or what they have harvested.
> 
> PROVE It! YOU wish to dispute their data, than provide some actual factual data to back up your claims.......otherwise, the facts prevail(which they will anyway)
> 
> That's not "hard data."
> 
> YOUR opinion, of which who cares ???
> 
> The ONLY hard data is out of VA, and it shows that rookie xbow hunters outharvested (by %) experienced bowhunters.
> 
> WOW that huge 4% again, NO one cares that 2.2% of the total archery harvest was taken with a crossbow, likewise NO one cares that ONLY 4% success rate higher for crossbows......
> 
> Spin that.


NO need to spin.........facts and data and stats are ON my side.......YOU don't like them , be my guest and prove them wrong.........with FACTS,DATA,STATS not your so called opinions.......

I was asked(several times and in fact accused of not having them, by someone who knew that I did).. to provide my facts so I posed a FEW of them......... well there they are, for all to see, there is plenty more........so, I'd suggest don't try to spin to hard, before you know it you will all be very dizzy :darkbeer: :cocktail:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *Past data indicates the majority of bow hunters in this country started out as gun hunters.*
> 
> Intersting fact; based on real data......hmm, yet some insist on speaking out against gun hunters......wise...probably not


Yup - gun hunters who were willing to get off their butt and learn to bowhunt - why can't you do the same?


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Yeah, I have nothing......that's "funny" :cocktail: :darkbeer:


Given the fact that I countered the vast majority of your points with unafraid plain talk....I'd say free range is right.


You got nothing.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL - no data exists to refute it, either!
> 
> That's funny!
> 
> First YOU guys say we(I) don't have the facts to back up what I state, I show them, then you say something like that, IF it's true as you guys claim prove it.....I've shown you can't deal with it.....
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, many would argue that is no true to....including 83 archery organizations in the NABC, 70% of those polled on AT, and yours truly!


NOT many care about "elite bow hunting clubs", and I'm not quite certain that NOW 70% here at AT would agree now having so many fact presented to them, not to mention your "antics" are YOU?  

The FACTS have been presented, NOW I expect the same in return, NOT "there is no data to to refute it" IF you made the claim, let's see the proof, OR I will then have proven I can do it, you few can't .....(but I already knew this, I've done it before)  :darkbeer: :cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Yup - gun hunters who were willing to get off their butt and learn to bowhunt - why can't you do the same?


I've been shooting bows for over 35 years, that's much longer than YOU claim to have done so, again, NO reason to put down other hunters, but since YOU have nothing on your side, that is all you can do, and thus you continue to do so.......

I have proven it as well, having posted proof on a few forums, something I've not seen you guys do.....fwiw.....

WHY can't you accept the FACT it doesn't matter one bit to most people what bow another uses, longbow, compound,recurve, crossbow, WHY does it bother YOU so?? 

Sad and pathetic.....and your "opinons" again do NOT trump this data, no matter how hard you try(btw do you realize how it makes YOU look??) Oh yeah, you already have looked that way for a long time now, in many forums my mistake!:wink:


----------



## cynic

All I know is that as more and more heads of the various DNR's see things for what they really are the xbow is continuing its inclusion and while those of you with NO decision making capabilities continue to try and make it out to be evil, it only makes those with the powers to make changes in current laws and also new laws want to see for themselves and in the end it is apparent that more and more states are including the xbow as legal hunting tackle in archery season..You can whine some more and cry foul all you want. What I say along with what ya'll say will have little to no impact on the final standing. Say what you want. We say what we want. They say what it will be. As more and more people want to use a xbow they will say what we want. Overall vertical bowhunter numbers are declining, xbow hunters are on the rise. Good luck to all.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> HERE is ONE post from the Tenn forum, you should KNOW who posted this, and btw he's not pro-crossbow.....


blah, blah, blah.

Here's another from the same forum I find to be quite interesting:

* I have had many great seasons of bowhunting, but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up. I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement.*

Kinda blows a giant, gaping hole in the JimC arguement that compounds and crossbows are the same, doesn't it? 

(Let me translate for you slow witted ones out there - "didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season" means LAZY. 

Crossbow = easy remedy.

YUCK.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Given the fact that I countered the vast majority of your points with unafraid plain talk
> 
> In YOUR dreams, YOUR unqualified opinion does not "counter" FACT nor DATA
> 
> 
> 
> ....I'd say free range is right.
> 
> You can say it, doesn't matter, and I doubt anyonce cares what is your opinion at this point
> 
> 
> You got nothing.


YOU have nothing.......your "opinions" are not only so flawed as to be laughable, the fact that YOU "think" they "counter" the relevent facts and data posted, proves just how full of yourself(not to mention ) that you indeed are! 

NO One is going to take your opinions over that data and those facts and stats.......even in your "little dream world of yours you seem to live in" I'd think you'd realize that fact......

So sad..........watch and see, the facts are there, the states are following those NOT you few and your "so called opinions" of what is/isn't fact......thus you will continue to lose......

BTW, the data I provided also shows YOU were very incorrect in how many states don't allow the crossbow.......counter and spin that!:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> WHY can't you accept the FACT it doesn't matter one bit to most people what bow another uses, longbow, compound,recurve, crossbow, WHY does it bother YOU so??


Probably because 70% of the members here at AT do not consider crossbows to be archery. 85% of NY hunters say they would be less satisfied if crossbows were added to ANY season.

You are simply wrong. Most people do not want to buy what you are selling. You are an extremist, a radical - out of touch with the mainstream.


----------



## cynic

On a different note has anyone heard the term "educated idiot"


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> BTW, the data I provided also shows YOU were very incorrect in how many states don't allow the crossbow.......counter and spin that!:darkbeer:



I don't even know what you are talking about...what states?


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> blah, blah, blah.
> 
> Here's another from the same forum I find to be quite interesting:
> 
> * I have had many great seasons of bowhunting, but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up. I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement.*
> 
> Kinda blows a giant, gaping hole in the JimC arguement that compounds and crossbows are the same, doesn't it?
> 
> (Let me translate for you slow witted ones out there - "didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season" means LAZY.
> 
> Crossbow = easy remedy.
> 
> YUCK.


You couldn't blow your own nose! 

I posted the DATA that proves both he and I are correct!

.049%(crossbows) compared to .051%(compound)

Plus HOW do YOU explain the states where the compound had HIGHER success rates?? YOU can't so you try this "spin".......you're really making me wonder even more about you now!:tongue: 


Come on back with some actual facts some relevent factual data, I am NOT interested in your silly Opinions.....

I provided facts and data, show us all the same respect, IF you can


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> All I know is that as more and more heads of the various DNR's see things for what they really are the xbow is continuing its inclusion and while those of you with NO decision making capabilities continue to try and make it out to be evil, it only makes those with the powers to make changes in current laws and also new laws want to see for themselves and in the end it is apparent that more and more states are including the xbow as legal hunting tackle in archery season..You can whine some more and cry foul all you want. What I say along with what ya'll say will have little to no impact on the final standing. Say what you want. We say what we want. They say what it will be. As more and more people want to use a xbow they will say what we want. Overall vertical bowhunter numbers are declining, xbow hunters are on the rise. Good luck to all.


You are probably correct.

But make no mistake about it. States are legalizing xbows because there is money in it, not because it is best for bowhunting.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I don't even know what you are talking about...what states?


I can believe that?


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Probably because 70% of the members here at AT do not consider crossbows to be archery.
> 
> HOW old is that poll you keep mentioning? After a few months of reading YOUR posts I'm guessing those numbers have changed quite a bit
> 
> 85% of NY hunters say they would be less satisfied if crossbows were added to ANY season.
> 
> Fine then, IF someone is in NY and doesn't want them I suppose they're lucky to be able to claim that, MOST archers are NOT in NY btw
> 
> You are simply wrong. Most people do not want to buy what you are selling. You are an extremist, a radical - out of touch with the mainstream.


YOU remember that in 10 years........:cocktail: :darkbeer: 

Nothing "radical" to ask that an archery weapon be allowed in archery season, that is how your beloved compound bow got in.........that IS all we're doing what has been done successfully in the past, guess, had some NOT done it before we may have not done the same, they did, we are, so IF we are what you say, then they are as well.....

NOW let me see......

YOU have insulted.......

Most archers......

ALL gunhunters.....

ALL CROSSBOW hunters/shooters

MOST all hunters in at least a few ways.......

Yeah you're "helping bowhunting" NOT


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> You couldn't blow your own nose!
> 
> I posted the DATA that proves both he and I are correct!
> 
> .049%(crossbows) compared to .051%(compound)
> 
> Plus HOW do YOU explain the states where the compound had HIGHER success rates?? YOU can't so you try this "spin".......you're really making me wonder even more about you now!:tongue:
> 
> 
> Come on back with some actual facts some relevent factual data, I am NOT interested in your silly Opinions.....
> 
> I provided facts and data, show us all the same respect, IF you can



You cannot call them facts if they are not.

GA does not have a separate crossbow license. GA does not know how many crossbow hunters there are. It does not take a rocket scientist (or an engineer) to figure out that if you do not know how many crossbow hunters there are, you cannot calculate a harvest rate. (duh)

If it makes you feel better to call your spin "facts" by all means you should do it. Guys like Free Ramge and I are here to point out to the interested bystanders that your "facts" are , actually , not.


Oh, I know. You can argue. You can scream, cry, carry on, whimper, snivel, whine....even threaten those who disagree.

Doesn't make it a fact, and intelligent people who view these type of threads can decide for themselves.... I'm certain they are making the right decisions.:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> You are probably correct.
> 
> But make no mistake about it. States are legalizing xbows because there is money in it, not because it is best for bowhunting.


There is ONLY money in it if there is a DEMAND BY HUNTERS.......no demand no money.......supply and demand dude, ever heard of that.......thus, IF people actually want it, then and ONLY then is there money in it.......btw .........that destroyed you and your theories right there! Congrats!:darkbeer: :darkbeer: :cocktail: 

Hope those three help to ease the pain LOL


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> NOW let me see......
> 
> YOU have insulted.......
> 
> Most archers......
> 
> ALL gunhunters.....
> 
> ALL CROSSBOW hunters/shooters


See....there you go with your untruths agiain. I have certainly not insulted bowhunters (and in my opinion, stringgunners don't count as archers). I have not maligned gun hunters....(I'm one of those, too).

And I haven't even insulted all crossbow hunters. I have a tremendous amount of respect for those that overcome the adversity of physical challenges and find a way to continue their passion for bowhunting. Those that practice their craft in their own season or during gun or MZ season also have my utmost respect and admiration. Those that try to cheat by using the crossbow during bowseason to gain an advantage over both the deer and their fellow hunters have earned my scorn and loathing.

Simple.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Doesn't make it a fact, and intelligent people who view these type of threads can decide for themselves.... I'm certain they are making the right decisions.:darkbeer:


Today, 01:33 AM 
SilentSniper 
Tiburon Shooter Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143 

thesource-why are you trying to stur up the hornets nest? You opinion is noted. Go pick a fight at the schoolyard not here. 
__________________
"A bad day hunting is still better than a good day at work." 

You are so correct Source. This is the one and only post in this thread made by this poster. I would take what he is saying to mean it is only your opinion and childish(schoolyard)


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> blah, blah, blah.
> 
> Here's another from the same forum I find to be quite interesting:
> 
> * I have had many great seasons of bowhunting, but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up. I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement.*
> 
> Kinda blows a giant, gaping hole in the JimC arguement that compounds and crossbows are the same, doesn't it?
> 
> (Let me translate for you slow witted ones out there - "didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season" means LAZY.
> 
> Crossbow = easy remedy.
> 
> YUCK.



http://www.tndeer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000279;p=6


I just realized where he got that from PLEASE NOTE WHAT HE LEFT OUT ABOUT THE INJURY HE HAD SUFFERED (shame on YOU )


Member # 1336 

posted 05-22-2006 08:38 AM 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I got my first car at age 16 one of the first things I did was drive to Wally World and put a bow in layaway (had to drive a ways, as they didn't have one nearby). I eventually paid it off, practiced on my own, and learned to hunt. No one in my family hunted with bows or had any desire to join me so I was basically on my own.


*Several years later I had an accident that basically destroyed my shoulder, so for many years, there was no bow season for me. Years passed, the shoulder got stronger, and I decided to pick the bow up again. I have had many great seasons of bowhunting, but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up. *

I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement.

Again shame on YOU for trying to use only part of that, AND for calling another hunter(injured no less) "lazy"......


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> that destroyed you and your theories right there!


Oh, if it were only so simple.

GA sold like 5000 in their first year ... not a lot of $$$$. But every little bit helps, right?

DNR will sell out bowhunters for very little profit, it appears.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> thesource-why are you trying to stur up the hornets nest?


I don't bother responding to people who cannot spell "stir".

LOL


----------



## aceoky

*Free Range*

Originally posted by Free Range:
David, a couple quick questions, in TN before the x-bow became legal during all of the bow season, could a person get a handicapped waiver to use an x-bow? And has your sister-in-law done any other type of hunting, before or since she quit bow hunting? 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Tennessee did have a waiver system. He didn't qualify. 

As far as sister-in-law. She quit totally. 

NOW tell me I have NO proof of recruitement or retention! (better yet go tell him, I'll be waiting for that ) :darkbeer: 

I've shown plenty of such facts and truth, the fact you choose to ignore facts even from other hunters and moderators and admins etc. doesn't make them any less fact......:cocktail:


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> See....there you go with your untruths agiain. I have certainly not insulted bowhunters (and in my opinion, stringgunners don't count as archers). I have not maligned gun hunters....(I'm one of those, too).
> 
> Simple.


Whoa Nelly let me get my boots. I can't believe that after last nights post you are even going to try that one

Yesterday, 08:55 PM 
thesource 
Registered User Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,038 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynic
Since you just want to argue, Are you saying that anyone can pick up a rifle and shoot without properly anchoring, breathing while shooting a rifle/xbow makes an extreme diference. 


Breathing?

Us bowhunters worry about torquing, jerking, flinching, pre-releasing, and follow through....

you're worried about BREATHING? 

To bad there's not a penalty for perpretrating a hunter...


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Oh, if it were only so simple.
> 
> GA sold like 5000 in their first year ... not a lot of $$$$. But every little bit helps, right?
> 
> DNR will sell out bowhunters for very little profit, it appears.



AS I said..........D-e-s-t-r-o-y-e-d

IF it were about money alone clearly then they wouldn't be doing it, we've ALWAYS known, though it's really about choice and opportunity for more archery hunters......once again.......you have nothing.......as far as facts and data are concerned........sad......to be so overworked with what others do, and to allow that to affect you in such a way is well............sad really


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> AS I said..........D-e-s-t-r-o-y-e-d





I thought Jim was the champion of declaring hinself victorious. looks as though we have a new contender.

You are clearly a legend in your own mind.


----------



## cynic

aceoky said:


> http://www.tndeer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000279;p=6
> 
> 
> I just realized where he got that from PLEASE NOTE WHAT HE LEFT OUT ABOUT THE INJURY HE HAD SUFFERED (shame on YOU )
> 
> 
> Member # 1336
> 
> posted 05-22-2006 08:38 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> When I got my first car at age 16 one of the first things I did was drive to Wally World and put a bow in layaway (had to drive a ways, as they didn't have one nearby). I eventually paid it off, practiced on my own, and learned to hunt. No one in my family hunted with bows or had any desire to join me so I was basically on my own.
> 
> 
> *Several years later I had an accident that basically destroyed my shoulder, so for many years, there was no bow season for me. Years passed, the shoulder got stronger, and I decided to pick the bow up again. I have had many great seasons of bowhunting, but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up. *
> 
> I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement.
> 
> Again shame on YOU for trying to use only part of that, AND for calling another hunter(injured no less) "lazy"......


Bet he never thought anyone would find this...Source what can be said,,Insulting and shameful


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I don't bother responding to people who cannot spell "stir".
> 
> LOL


Respond to this then.......WHY would you "cut" out the part where another hunter was injured?? AND then post as if he were never hurt AND CALL HIM LAZY AFTER SAYING THIS..........


And I haven't even insulted all crossbow hunters. *I have a tremendous amount of respect for those that overcome the adversity of physical challenges and find a way to continue their passion for bowhunting. *Those that practice their craft in their own season or during gun or MZ season also have my utmost respect and admiration.


Those that try to cheat by using the crossbow during bowseason to gain an advantage over both the deer and their fellow hunters have earned my scorn and loathing.

Simple.

Advantage over both the deer and fellow hunters????????

ARE YOU serious?? I seriously doubt there are any dead deer that give a "flip" what launched the arrow that killed them, that statement taken with everything you've said.........well says it "all"....


----------



## cynic

Source that's twice in the same thread that you have either taken away or added to post and information to spew your ideas..In my opinion you should refrain from discussing ethics...


----------



## thesource

Idiots. He was hurt, recovered and bowhunted again, then got lazy and turned to an xbow as the easy way out. Read it again.

_When I got my first car at age 16 one of the first things I did was drive to Wally World and put a bow in layaway (had to drive a ways, as they didn't have one nearby). I eventually paid it off, practiced on my own, and learned to hunt. No one in my family hunted with bows or had any desire to join me so I was basically on my own.


Several years later I had an accident that basically destroyed my shoulder, so for many years, there was no bow season for me. *Years passed, the shoulder got stronger, and I decided to pick the bow up again. I have had many great seasons of bowhunting,* but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up.

I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement._


You guys are pathetic.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL .... you're kidding, right?
> 
> Your "survey" doesn't matter. AR does noy know how many xbow hunters there are or what they have harvested.
> 
> That's not "hard data."
> 
> The ONLY hard data is out of VA, and it shows that rookie xbow hunters outharvested (by %) experienced bowhunters.
> 
> Spin that.


Much dishonesty in this post. We have no idea if those rookie crossbow archers were extremely experienced compound hunters or cream of the crop gun hunters. We have no way of eliminating the variables so that you can bray that crossbows are unfair. 

since you have conceded that crossbows are not deleterious to the herd, there really is no reason for your 2000 posts of caterwauling


----------



## cynic

Source trying to justify your reason for excluding data really isn't helping. The ethics are a great concern to me and I see you have none..Fair chase and ethics go hand in hand, Ethics extend well past hunting...


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> You cannot call them facts if they are not..
> 
> 
> Nor would I.....unlike some here...
> 
> GA does not have a separate crossbow license. GA does not know how many crossbow hunters there are. It does not take a rocket scientist (or an engineer) to figure out that if you do not know how many crossbow hunters there are, you cannot calculate a harvest rate. (duh)
> 
> Wonder how they know if they even have a deer there then duh......your ignorance amazes and amuzes me at the same time :darkbeer:
> 
> If it makes you feel better to call your spin "facts" by all means you should do it. Guys like Free Ramge and I are here to point out to the interested bystanders that your "facts" are , actually , not.
> 
> The two of you put together couldn't "catch" a cold.....much less prove me or JimC(who can speak very well for himself btw) wrong........you only each make yourselves look even more foolish and selfish, with each post..
> 
> 
> Oh, I know. You can argue. You can scream, cry, carry on, whimper, snivel, whine....even threaten those who disagree.
> 
> NO reason for my need to do any of that, again I have the facts,data and stats all on MY side, I don't try to judge other fellow hunters much less on their weapon choices, I hunt my way and let them do the same thing.........
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't make it a fact, and intelligent people who view these type of threads can decide for themselves.... I'm certain they are making the right decisions.:darkbeer:


And I suspect they do exactly that, to your demise and dismay! :cocktail:


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Source trying to justify your reason for excluding data really isn't helping. The ethics are a great concern to me and I see you have none..Fair chase and ethics go hand in hand, Ethics extend well past hunting...


LOL, cynic...

It is obvious to everyone that hunting ethics is not your strong suit.

UR a joke...


----------



## Jim C

Here is the bottom line-I want to hunt with my crossbow and I want to hunt in archery season before the deer are spooked by guns-just like the compound guys

Source has conceded my hunting with a crossbow for this period won't hurt the herd

Is there any possible argument that remains in favor of the source's position that can be justified

NO


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL, cynic...
> 
> It is obvious to everyone that hunting ethics is not your strong suit.
> 
> UR a joke...


your ethics period are lacking..Your disguise is coming apart at the seams. Might try covering your backside..


----------



## cynic

Source you worry about others lets worry about you for just a minute so that we know where you really stand and what you stand for..
You boast of being a bowhunter and a gun hunter..Your groupies wanted a picture I posted it. Now I want a picture of you your equipment include bows and guns along with atleast one animal you have taken..If we are going to talk about fair chase hunter rights I want to make sure I'm dealing with a hunter all others don't matter...Lets have some proof you are what you say you are..


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Idiots. He was hurt, recovered and bowhunted again, then got lazy and turned to an xbow as the easy way out. Read it again.
> 
> _When I got my first car at age 16 one of the first things I did was drive to Wally World and put a bow in layaway (had to drive a ways, as they didn't have one nearby). I eventually paid it off, practiced on my own, and learned to hunt. No one in my family hunted with bows or had any desire to join me so I was basically on my own.
> 
> 
> Several years later I had an accident that basically destroyed my shoulder, so for many years, there was no bow season for me. *Years passed, the shoulder got stronger, and I decided to pick the bow up again. I have had many great seasons of bowhunting,* but I can honestly say I was just about ready to give it up.
> 
> Does NOT say anywhere that "HE recovered" it "got stronger" at NO time does he even imply he was "healed" or "recovered" nor even 80%
> 
> 
> I found I didn't have or want to take the time it requires to get ready for archery season. Along comes the crossbow and now I have a newfound excitement._
> 
> 
> You guys are pathetic.


NO what is "pathetic" is for you to use a quote and CUT relevent parts out of it, then when caught, TRY to justify it with more misinformation.........THAT "IS" pathetic!


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Here is the bottom line-I want to hunt with my crossbow and I want to hunt in archery season before the deer are spooked by guns



That is ABSOLUTELY the bottom line - your GREED.

I want....Iwant...

Never mind history, heritage, or tradition.

I WANT my crossbow, so it should be!

yuck.


----------



## KOhunter

thesource said:


> You cannot call them facts if they are not.
> 
> GA does not have a separate crossbow license. GA does not know how many crossbow hunters there are. It does not take a rocket scientist (or an engineer) to figure out that if you do not know how many crossbow hunters there are, you cannot calculate a harvest rate. (duh)
> 
> If it makes you feel better to call your spin "facts" by all means you should do it. Guys like Free Ramge and I are here to point out to the interested bystanders that your "facts" are , actually , not.
> 
> 
> Oh, I know. You can argue. You can scream, cry, carry on, whimper, snivel, whine....even threaten those who disagree.
> 
> Doesn't make it a fact, and intelligent people who view these type of threads can decide for themselves.... I'm certain they are making the right decisions.:darkbeer:


Well if you're looking for input from someone. I've hunted for over 30 years with some of the most knowledgable and experienced sportsman in the world...and I can honestly say as on of those "bystanders", who has read this nonsense for months...Source and Free Range are two of the most egotisticle, selfish, anti-hunter, hateful persons I have ever had the displeasure to read. So Source, there's a little of that feed back you requested.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> NO what is "pathetic" is for you to use a quote and CUT relevent parts out of it, then when caught, TRY to justify it with more misinformation.........THAT "IS" pathetic!



YAWN.


----------



## cynic

You have to admit that would have been good if he had pulled it off..Wonder how much of his other data was done the same way? In my opinion this makes all his other post irrelavant and pointless..but anyway lets get back to the topic..


----------



## cynic

KOhunter said:


> Well if you're looking for input from someone. I've hunted for over 30 years with some of the most knowledgable and experienced sportsman in the world...and I can honestly say as on of those "bystanders", who has read this nonsense for months...Source and Free Range are two of the most egotisticle, selfish, anti-hunter, hateful persons I have ever had the displeasure to read. So Source, there's a little of that feed back you requested.


The truth must hurt "ouch"


----------



## thesource

Cynic - 

KOhunter is a procrossbower whose 20 whole posts have centered around chirping into the crossbow debate from time to time.

That's like saying your opinions matter - they do not...only to you.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That means they are GUN hunters.



and your point is source?


----------



## Bellows1

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> KOhunter is a procrossbower whose 20 whole posts have centered around chirping into the crossbow debate from time to time.
> 
> That's like saying your opinions matter - they do not...only to you.


Why would post count matter in this discussion?


----------



## aceoky

cynic said:


> You have to admit that would have been good if he had pulled it off..Wonder how much of his other data was done the same way? In my opinion this makes all his other post irrelavant and pointless..but anyway* lets get back to the topic*..


I agree 100% and actually what I posted was on topic( I think) it proves the crossbow has NO advantages over the compound in actual hunting(in fact I've shown some do quite better with compounds, over crossbows!)

THUS....seems to me, the data and actual facts prove the crossbow is at least as "fair chase" as the compound (maybe more so?)


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> KOhunter is a procrossbower whose 20 whole posts have centered around chirping into the crossbow debate from time to time.
> 
> That's like saying your opinions matter - they do not...only to you.


*Doesn't make it a fact, and intelligent people who view these type of threads can decide for themselves.... I'm certain they are making the right decisions*.
While you are worried about post counts I am not. You can not discredit him with me, only he can. he is an intelligent person viewing this thread..Are you now going to insult his intelligence?


----------



## aceoky

Bellows1 said:


> Why would post count matter in this discussion?


I have no clue, probably the best he had? :cocktail: 

I've noticed when one has no facts they're quick to insult, accuse, belittle, agitate, somehow hoping or "thinking" that helps their position, I've yet to see it "work as planned" yet though :darkbeer:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Free Range said:


> I have quotes from MD, pretty much stating the same thing.


Please provide url references for MD FR.

Thanks!


----------



## KOhunter

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> KOhunter is a procrossbower whose 20 whole posts have centered around chirping into the crossbow debate from time to time.
> 
> That's like saying your opinions matter - they do not...only to you.


And your opion matters more than mine...why?
It's just more sour grapes from someone who continouly has nothing of any substance to say. I don't post much because, as someone who believes in "ethics" and "fair chase" I don't like to get into an intelligent debate with an umarmed person.:wink:


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Here is the bottom line-I want to hunt with my crossbow and I want to hunt in archery season before the deer are spooked by guns


There you have it folks. GREED!


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> There you have it folks. GREED!


You probably thought black folks were greedy for wanting to vote as well

how are you hurt by me wanting to hunt the same deer you do during the same time when I pay the same fees and same taxes?

You must be OD'ing on Orwell to call apartheid sound and inclusion greed

It must be a part of the old south I don't understand


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> thesource said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Pope and Young certainly say that its a hard and fast set of rules.
> 
> "or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
> 
> So all high tech other than electronics is okay? Please tell me what's not hard and fast about that and tell me that you'd lobby P&Y to change this hard and fast rule.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is electronics not okay?
Click to expand...


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Source,
> 
> I'm confused
> 
> First you said
> 
> *If you think or feel something violates fair chase that is not already defined, you shouldn't do it. It does not need to be a hard and fast set of rules.*
> 
> shortly thereafter you said
> *Of course, the P&Y rules of fair chase supersede your own opinions. They ARE hard and fast.*
> 
> You're suggesting that as long as you become more ethically stringent than the existing rules of Pope and Young, then its okay. True? Here is the bar. Do the limbo anyway you want, just make sure you get under it.
> 
> Nothing is said of using the laws defined at the state level. Why not?
> 
> Yes they supersede his opinions for rules of record book entry. They shouldn't supersede the laws that we use as a society to govern hunting with either bows or crossbows. True?
> 
> Why does Pope and Young feel that they need to be hard and fast?
> 
> Have they ever changed their rules of fair chase? I think the answer is yes.
> Do you have a history of the rule changes? Where can I find it?
> I asked Pope and Young for it already. Directly.
> I called them. They said they didn't have it. I'm sure the guy was up to his eyeballs in other more important things. I was thinking that maybe you have an awareness of the changes in rules, or even written documentation? How long have you been a member?
> 
> Its okay to say that we don't have the changes in rules, if you want to say that history is irrelevant, but I don't think that's where you're coming from.
> 
> If rules have changed before, why do they (you?) feel the need to stop now?
> I think you said you wanted to add rules regarding high fence/baiting restrictions. Why not introduce that?
> 
> What makes P&Y feel that they should stop the clock on what defines ethical treatment in an ever changing world?
> 
> Doesn't it feel exciting to be a part of someone's future history?
> Or do you want to say...nope...I had no impact on the world...and kept it exactly the way I found it. You want to change some parts.
> 
> My last question is... what does it take to get P&Y to change _*their*_ definition of fair chase? How does the process work?
> Thanks for answering ALL of my questions ;-)


Thanks for answering the first round Source...how about the ones in blue?


----------



## aceoky

PMantle said:


> There you have it folks. GREED!


NO, *I* submit that GREED is the motivator when "some" tend to "think" or "feel" they're "entitled" or "special" or "deserving" so they belong in a season they had NO part in getting started, thus are NO different than the rest of us!

WE are all hunters.....c'mon,, get a grip, it's not so much to asked for inclusion in something we all love and respect....it's how WE got archery season, it is how WE got compounds included and it's how WE WILL get the crossbow included as well! None of the other thing "ruined bowhunting" as predicted, so anyone should well know this won't either!

GREED .............IS trying to exclude other hunters because they make a choice of weapon, that differs from your own archery weapon(s)....... I could continue, but I think it's very easy to see what is, and who has GREED on their agenda, and it's not those asking for inclusion and unity!


----------



## Jim C

aceoky said:


> NO, *I* submit that GREED is the motivator when "some" tend to "think" or "feel" they're "entitled" or "special" or "deserving" so they belong in a season they had NO part in getting started, thus are NO different than the rest of us!
> 
> WE are all hunters.....c'mon,, get a grip, it's not so much to asked for inclusion in something we all love and respect....it's how WE got archery season, it is how WE got compounds included and it's how WE WILL get the crossbow included as well! None of the other thing "ruined bowhunting" as predicted, so anyone should well know this won't either!
> 
> GREED .............IS trying to exclude other hunters because they make a choice of weapon, that differs from your own archery weapon(s)....... I could continue, but I think it's very easy to see what is, and who has GREED on their agenda, and it's not those asking for inclusion and unity!


PM thinks that using a bow that-- under ideal circumstances where everyone is ethical--requires slightly more time to master somehow entitles him to more access to hunting the public's game than someone who uses a similar weapon with no greater range or accuracy. those considerations played no part in creating the original archery season btw so they are making up an entitlement argument as crucial when it played no role in getting the season in the first place

its dishonest and fraudulent and like all of the anti xbow nonsense-it ignores reality and the concepts upon which this country was based on


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Jim C said:


> PM thinks that using a bow that-- under ideal circumstances where everyone is ethical--requires slightly more time to master somehow entitles him to more access to hunting the public's game than someone who uses a similar weapon with no greater range or accuracy.


Please define ethical Jim.

Thanks


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Jim C said:


> those considerations played no part in creating the original archery season btw so they are making up an entitlement argument as crucial when it played no role in getting the season in the first place


Please tell us what all the reasons were in getting a separate season,
and weight them according to the what you think were the justifications

1.) lower number of hunters with this weapon.
2.) range limitations give a relatively reduced harvest rate
3.) heritage and tradition
4.) ?
5.) ?

etc

Thanks again,


----------



## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Please define ethical Jim.
> 
> Thanks



I will quote Cincinnati's most famous jurist of the last half century-Justice Potter Stewart-I can't define it but I know it when I see it

You miss the point. PM and others assume that if everyone will only hunt after mastering t heir weapon, this will mean that compound hunters spend more time practicing shooting then crossbow archers and thus deserve more time in the woods

its a moronic concept based on greed and is not relevant to why archers got a long season

I note that many people hunt before mastering their weapon. That cuts in favor of crossbows


----------



## aceoky

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Please tell us what all the reasons were in getting a separate season,
> and weight them according to the what you think were the justifications
> 
> 1.) lower number of hunters with this weapon.
> 2.) range limitations give a relatively reduced harvest rate
> 3.) heritage and tradition
> 4.) ?
> 5.) ?
> 
> etc
> 
> Thanks again,


It's "interesting" when Fred Bear was working so hard to obtain this "bow season"thing, HE made a point of saying the "two season hunter", getting MORE gun hunters invoved in archery, he felt was a great thing to work toward....

...NOW some of those who say the crossbow will do that and in so doing will "dillute" the "tradition and heritage" of bowhunting!!

Do they KNOW from where this came?? I don't belive they do, nor understand it, IF it was good then, it still is......right?


----------



## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Please tell us what all the reasons were in getting a separate season,
> and weight them according to the what you think were the justifications
> 
> 1.) lower number of hunters with this weapon.
> 2.) range limitations give a relatively reduced harvest rate
> 3.) heritage and tradition
> 4.) ?
> 5.) ?
> 
> etc
> 
> Thanks again,



1) people wanted it
2) their desires were not harmful to the herd based on number of predicted participants and expected harvest
3) there was no real tradition at the time
4) there was no tradition of compounds when they were added either

what is most idiotic is condemning xbow advocates for doing exactly what the first archery hunters lobbied for and then what the compounds lobbied for.

adding xbows to the bow season takes nothing away from the current participants

having a primitive only session takes away from those currently hunting

now if source and his ilk say want to give us october and november where only crossbows can hunt and reserved December and january for his fellow travelers then Maybe I could support an xbow season

but if we are going to have archery apartheid, he is no more welcome in the xbow season then we are in "his"season.

in reality source wants a xbow season in which he can use his bow, but he doesn't want xbows to hunt in his or he wants xbows to have say a three day season or something idiotic like that


----------



## aceoky

:darkbeer:


Free Range said:


> No Ace, the proper response would be to point out why this is a relevant fact. I pointed out why it is not. We all have enough faith in the DNR’s at this point to accept they are not going to let there be damage to the herd. Well on second thought when you consider the wolf and it’s impact in ID and MT maybe they would. Saying there would be no damage to the herd is no more relevant to this discussion then saying we drive on the right side of the road in America. What is the benefit to hunting?
> Using your "logic", what benefit does any archery have to hunting?? It's best to think before you spout of such drivel.....imho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We already have no damage to the herd, in fact we need more hunters to kill more deer in many states, and the x-bow is not increasing hunter numbers.
> 
> I've more than proven otherwise, POST up your proof of what you just claimed, we'll all be waiting
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try Ace, more opportunity (real opportunity) for bow hunters, would be longer season and or higher bag limits. Giving a bow hunter a different weapon and calling that more opportunity is a bogus argument. The second you give them another weapon they no longer are bow hunters, thus negating your so call more opportunity. If you said more opportunity for gun hunters to hunt during archery season, you might have been at least on the right track.
> 
> Also proven to be a good thing Fred Bear "touted" the two season hunter(getting more gun hunters involved) Why did you either not know that fact or choose to ignore it?? AND it's "not just another weapon", it IS another archery weapon, try getting at least a couple of your "facts"(read opinions) straight please
> 
> 
> 
> No different then doing it your way or hunt another season now is it Ace? You say hunt with a bow or x-bow or hunt another season, I say hunt with a bow or hunt another season, Ace, that is not a very good position there partner.
> 
> NOPE not close their at all, use an archery weapon(or your own choosing) and welcome to the awesome thing we call bowhunting! THAT is MY stance, YOURS is do it MY way or don't do it at all.....
> 
> 
> 
> And what do you tell the person that thinks their handicap precludes them from shooting any kind of bow? It’s ok for them to use a gun, or it’s ok for them to use a remote gun hooked to a computer at home? Just where do you draw the line, or is there no lines in your world?
> 
> 
> 
> I know you are smarter then this Ace, are you really saying my opinion is subjective and yours is not. I say your facts, these two, are not relevant, and that is subjective, you say my facts are not relevant but that is not subjective?
> 
> Nice try , no "cigar"
> 
> 
> 
> Allowing more to hunt is far from it actually having that affect, for it to be a benefit it must actually get more to hunt, and it hasn’t.
> 
> Again, I've proven differently many times, time for YOU to POST up some proof of what YOU are claiming as FACT
> 
> 
> 
> I have shown you the numbers from state after state showing that hunter numbers are falling. I don’t know what else to show you, if you don’t agree with those numbers then find some place that shows we are not in a downward trend, that would be great news.
> 
> I have done just that, and since we agree we NEED more hunters, guess you're done with this divisive and selfish stance, that's great news for us all!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, we are not excluding hunters, just weapon types, if you have a problem with that then you must have a problem with excluding any weapon type, to do otherwise is hypocritical at best.


NO it IS hypocritical, to say a compound is "fine" , but a crossbow is not fine.......which is why so many states are seeing it our way, not yours.......


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> 1) people wanted it
> 2) their desires were not harmful to the herd based on number of predicted participants and expected harvest
> 3) there was no real tradition at the time
> 4) there was no tradition of compounds when they were added either
> 
> what is most idiotic is condemning xbow advocates for doing exactly what the first archery hunters lobbied for and then what the compounds lobbied for.
> 
> adding xbows to the bow season takes nothing away from the current participants
> 
> having a primitive only session takes away from those currently hunting
> 
> now if source and his ilk say want to give us october and november where only crossbows can hunt and reserved December and january for his fellow travelers then Maybe I could support an xbow season
> 
> but if we are going to have archery apartheid, he is no more welcome in the xbow season then we are in "his"season.
> 
> in reality source wants a xbow season in which he can use his bow, but he doesn't want xbows to hunt in his or he wants xbows to have say a three day season or something idiotic like that


Agreed! The sad fact is though there are a "few" more just like that as well.....


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Bogus scare tactics. Archery Season has NEVER been about herd management .... guns and permits take care of that.


[/QUOTE]

Really?? HMM, your lack of knowledge and understanding really are starting to show lately, must REALLY hurt to be YOU........

Recognize this??

The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR) has received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season.

Additionally, the KDFWR *recognizes a need to increase the harvest of whitetail deer in a large percentage of the state. *In 2002, the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – “What do you think about the use of crossbows during archery season?” Using the data from the survey and with the knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource, KDFWR recently proposed an extension of the crossbow-hunting season for whitetail deer and wild turkeys from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season 

YOU attempt to dispute facts with YOUR opinions, and have more data showed to you........:cocktail: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: 

IOW (for the slow witted as you like to say too often) the KDFWR USED the fact of increased harvest in their decision to expand the crossbow season to run with archery.....once again........you lose another one.....

But you said I had "nothing" we'll see what YOU have in the form of FACTS, DATA stats shall we???


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I thought Jim was the champion of declaring hinself victorious. looks as though we have a new contender.
> 
> You are clearly a legend in your own mind.


THAT is the "best" you can do? LOL, Everything you said, was proven wrong and that is "IT"???  :cocktail: :darkbeer: :cocktail:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*Jim and PM*

Jim

*you said*
PM thinks that using a bow that-- _under ideal circumstances where everyone is ethical_...

I didn't know if they were PM's words or your words. I still don't. I could go back and find out but I suspect PM may have something to say soon enough.

Ethics in fair chase..man to deer, has nothing to do with the amount of time it takes to master a weapon. That's of course just my opinion. The deer has no idea of how long you practiced to become proficient. If someone is a fast learner and takes less time to become proficient with any weapon, it doesn't make him any more ethical. Lots of instruction can be given, or knowledge attained, concerning ethics, during the time period that it takes to become proficient. So you may wind up having a fast learner become less ethical because he didn't learn everything he should have prior to going into the field. You know, the stuff you learn as you're learning the ropes so to speak. 

Of course someone may have learned everything they needed to know ethically, in kindergarten, as you suggest in your quote below.

If someone assumes that someone doesn't have the ethics part 'down', (man-deer)until a satisfactory induction period is completed then they potentially assume too much. I thought most states had an induction period called hunters safety training class. This is where the rules/laws are upheld and learned. If someone chooses to operate under the bar, because some particular state law didn't pass the sniff test, then they can immediately choose to not employ that equipment, process, or method. This assumes that you can teach ethics. Interesting dilemma, to figure out whether they can be taught or learned.

You suggest that ethics are intuitive with your quote. I didn't know that it was ethically appropriate to use a range finder out at 65 yards, assuming I get good at that distance. 



Jim C said:


> I will quote Cincinnati's most famous jurist of the last half century-Justice Potter Stewart-I can't define it but I know it when I see it
> ....


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Jim

*You said
1) people wanted it
2) their desires were not harmful to the herd based on number of predicted participants and expected harvest*

I'll buy that.

*You said
3) there was no real tradition at the time*

Was the objective to create something based on tradition and heritage? 

*what is most idiotic is condemning xbow advocates for doing exactly what the first archery hunters lobbied for and then what the compounds lobbied for.*

I believe the first guys out of the blocks were saying
"We are very different and here is the laundry list of why."
"We deserve something special" 
"Give us some time and let us go off and do our own thing."

That is very different than the compound bow users subsequently coming along.
There stance was
"We're not that different"


*having a primitive only session takes away from those currently hunting*
You mean just like the season that the original bowhunters took away from the gun hunters? (okay we'll go through the whole history on that..but all in good time.)

*now if source and his ilk say want to give us october and november where only crossbows can hunt and reserved December and january for his fellow travelers then Maybe I could support an xbow season*

That would be incredibly supportive and generous. Kind of like what some of us were thinking regarding the proposal for a primitive season. You know the giving part vs. the taking away part. 

*in reality source wants a xbow season in which he can use his bow,*
I suspect that's the last thing he wants. I'm sure we'll hear from him.


----------



## vipers

*Fair Chase*

As a _novice_ compound bow user, I don`t pretend to know the differance or benifits of other types of bows. When it comes to "*fair chase*" or just plain *common sense* there are two kinds of people in the world: people with weak minds and people with strong minds. Need I really say more? I mean if our *fore-fathers* survied and settled on this GREAT place people call *Earth* without "lazer sights" and "x-bows" what good does it show the next generation the "_easy way_" to hunt wild game. Everytime I come back from the "hunt" I learn something new about myself and better my skills, not just for hunting but for my life in todays society. Words I live by: "*If your not learning, your not living*".

_This statment is my own, right or wrong_. Opinions are like bum holes, everyone in this world has one.:bowl:


----------



## cynic

vipers said:


> As a _novice_ compound bow user, I don`t pretend to know the differance or benifits of other types of bows. When it comes to "*fair chase*" or just plain *common sense* there are two kinds of people in the world: people with weak minds and people with strong minds. Need I really say more? *I mean if our fore-fathers survied and settled on this GREAT place people call Earth without "lazer sights" and "x-bows" what good does it show the next generation the "easy way" to hunt wild game.* Everytime I come back from the "hunt" I learn something new about myself and better my skills, not just for hunting but for my life in todays society. Words I live by: "*If your not learning, your not living*".
> 
> _This statment is my own, right or wrong_. Opinions are like bum holes, everyone in this world has one.:bowl:


Are we talking about fore fathers of the entire earth which would mean that in the beginning there was the bow,spear and crossbow. the xbow was not excluded from taking game to feed the people..It was not excluded from hunting or fighting.
Now if we are talking about the fore father founding this nation. That is a different story Bad part of this is that the fore-fathers of this great nation had guns(ML) Early settlers had Guns(ML)..Before them was Bows and spears, and crossbows before them was rocks and clubs before them was bare hands..So at which point are you talking about fore-fathers of earth..So if you are talking as to when this great nation was founded as in say Pilgrim Rock they had Muzzle loaders..The native Americans had bows and spears, the civilized settlers(by somes definition) introduced them to the ML and soon many Native Americans also used guns thus the evolution of weapons use begins. In the beginning bows had no cams wheels or pulleys..Which bow do you shoot??

Now onto _what good does it do to show the next generation the easy way_
Nothing that we do in todays society is done in the same manner as the fore-fathers with the exception of maybe sex but then again even that has evolved. Times change in everday life, people,scientist,engineers all look for ways to improve the quality of life and make life easier. Why was the compond introduced, ease of use, able to hold longer, shoot farther. So why do so many bowhunters skip hunting with a recurve? Because the earlier generation showed them it was easier to hunt and take game with a compound..


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Have they ever changed their rules of fair chase? I think the answer is yes.
> Do you have a history of the rule changes? Where can I find it?
> I asked Pope and Young for it already. Directly.
> I called them. They said they didn't have it. I'm sure the guy was up to his eyeballs in other more important things. I was thinking that maybe you have an awareness of the changes in rules, or even written documentation? How long have you been a member?
> 
> Its okay to say that we don't have the changes in rules, if you want to say that history is irrelevant, but I don't think that's where you're coming from.
> 
> If rules have changed before, why do they (you?) feel the need to stop now?
> I think you said you wanted to add rules regarding high fence/baiting restrictions. Why not introduce that?
> 
> What makes P&Y feel that they should stop the clock on what defines ethical treatment in an ever changing world?
> 
> Doesn't it feel exciting to be a part of someone's future history?
> Or do you want to say...nope...I had no impact on the world...and kept it exactly the way I found it. You want to change some parts.
> 
> My last question is... what does it take to get P&Y to change their definition of fair chase? How does the process work?
> Thanks for answering the first round Source...how about the ones in blue?


First - I want (need?) to clarify - I do not speak for the Pope and Young club. My interpretation of their rules is just that....my interpretation.

You ask some very good questions - that I cannot answer. It seems logical that the rules of fair chase should be reviewed and updated periodically....but I doubt that they will be.

As you can tell by the message traffic here and elsewhere, more and more hunters espouse the letter of the law over the spirit of fair chase....they will do whatever is legal (and sometimes whatever they feel they can get away with.)

Although I feel that P&Y is the authority on bowhunting, what it is, how it should it be done .... not everyone does. Everytime they add more rules they risk alienating more bowhunters, and of course the industry.

I don't know if you golf or not, but I consider P&Y to be the bowhunting equivalent of the USGA. They can tell us what is right and proper, they can outline what is fair and unfair, but they cannot police the ranks. That is the job of the hunting (or golfing) community, but primarily each individual. That doesn't mean each individual gets to set his own rules (as cynic, for example, would have us believe.) It means each individual is responsible for following the rules and guidelines that have been given to us.

I find it sad that people spend so much time and energy looking for ways around the rules, or justifying their breaking a rule.

Hunting would be viewed more positively if every hunter followed the spirit of the rules.


----------



## Free Range

> Notice that Free Range did not post any way to verify what I was supposed to have said, nor did he include any tables or data or anything, that proves anything......


Notice how Ace can’t read, the name and title of the person I was quoting is right there in plan sight, if you want to confirm his quotes all you have to do is go on their, (ODNR) site and e-mail him. 



> By Ace post number 506 this thread
> MY facts and data provide links to verify, what I have found yours not only do not, they are not even close to anything that has been STATED IN PUBLIC e.g. Dept web-sites etc.etc.etc.





> By Ace post number 507 this thread
> If I had to guess, yes, I would say that our trend looks like that as well and will continue.
> 
> I think without question, the number of hunters over 65 increased with the legalization of crossguns. To what percentage I don't know, but I would think there would have been several guys over 65 that normally would not have purchased an archery license, that did so last year due to the legalization.


Please read that two quotes above from Ace, these came from two consecutive post, is your cognitive skills that weak, did you really say you always post contact information then in the very next post not?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> First - I want (need?) to clarify - I do not speak for the .
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I find it sad that people spend so much time and energy looking for ways around the rules, or justifying their breaking a rule.
> 
> Hunting would be viewed more positively if every hunter followed the spirit of the rules.


I find it disgusting that people create "rules" that have no other purpose than to exclude others based on bigotry and greed. Sort of like rules that said men old enough to be drafted weren't old enough to vote. When people sought to change that-other people whined that they were radicals trying to rock the boat.

At my country club, you have to wear all white on the tennis court. That's fine with me and that was part of the Tennis rules for decades but It would be wrong for me or my club to tell some kid on a public court that he couldn't play unless he met our dress code. Same with the exclusive catholic prep school two girls I coach attend-they have a strict uniform requirement that should not be applied to public school students.

Poop and Dung is an ego stroking operation. If you need your ego stroked, fine with me but I have no use for those clowns calling crossbows the "greatest threat to bowhunting" since its a slanderous lie and they should be careful because their attitude-if exposed to the public-would be far more damaging to bowhunting


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> First - I want (need?) to clarify - I do not speak for the Pope and Young club. My interpretation of their rules is just that....my interpretation.
> 
> As you can tell by the message traffic here and elsewhere, more and more hunters espouse the letter of the law over the spirit of fair chase....they will do whatever is legal (and sometimes whatever they feel they can get away with.)
> 
> Although I feel that P&Y is the authority on bowhunting, what it is, how it should it be done .... not everyone does. Everytime they add more rules they risk alienating more bowhunters, and of course the industry.
> 
> I don't know if you golf or not, but I consider P&Y to be the bowhunting equivalent of the USGA. They can tell us what is right and proper, they can outline what is fair and unfair, but they cannot police the ranks. That is the job of the hunting (or golfing) community, but primarily each individual. That doesn't mean each individual gets to set his own rules (as cynic, for example, would have us believe.) It means each individual is responsible for following the rules and guidelines that have been given to us.
> 
> I find it sad that people spend so much time and energy looking for ways around the rules, or justifying their breaking a rule.
> 
> Hunting would be viewed more positively if every hunter followed the spirit of the rules.


See now you would have people to believe in to different organization..Who does the USGA govern? Right golfers on the tour not all golfers just those participating in their contests..So yes they are the same to a degree they both govern those wishing to participate in their games..but if say 3 golfers just went out for a round of golf they can make there own rules own pars they can define there game how *they* want too. Both are recreational activities..Once you go on tour for money fame and glory things change and so do the rules and is no longer recreation. Money changes everything..Source would have you to believe that he is a hunter according to him there has been no proof of that...Source would have you to believe he has ethics...I don't believe that either as he has been caught changing/editing/excluding data from posts used to better himself in his eyes.
The spirit of fair chase has evovled from its original intent. As it stands there is no true definition of "fair" "improper" it is merely an individual intepretation/opinion..Ethics are another thing that is vague..While one finds somethings ethical I do not and vice a versus. Some thing the laws make it ethical "who defines ethics"?..Source would have you to believe that others that don't feel and do like him are unethical. I am here to say that it is unethical for those of you that hold yourself in such high esteem and look down upon other hunters because of choice of weapon to consider yourselves hunters/sportsmen

Remember source We are waiting on proof you are a hunter or archer!!!


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> You probably thought black folks were greedy for wanting to vote as well
> 
> how are you hurt by me wanting to hunt the same deer you do during the same time when I pay the same fees and same taxes?
> 
> You must be OD'ing on Orwell to call apartheid sound and inclusion greed
> 
> It must be a part of the old south I don't understand


See, it's stuff like this that will ultimately kill any position you advocate. You're so over the top it's ridiculous. There aren't many people I would not hunt with, but you are certainly one of them.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> See, it's stuff like this that will ultimately kill any position you advocate. You're so over the top it's ridiculous. There aren't many people I would not hunt with, but you are certainly one of them.


It really is the same misguided beliefs that motivate anti xbow bow bigotry and other bigotry. Here are the similarities

1) we were here first-we thus are entitled to keep others out

2) we are more worthy-we created the season, the newcomers did not

3) they are selfish for wanting what we have

same mentality. same garbage. like the polite racists of a generation ago, we hear about "tradition" and "values" as an excuse for exclusion and apartheid.

its all the same way of thinking


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Notice how Ace can’t read, the name and title of the person I was quoting is right there in plan sight, if you want to confirm his quotes all you have to do is go on their, (ODNR) site and e-mail him.
> 
> I can't read? Wonder why I used the same name and title etc. as you did then.....weak very weak, btw I did email them, waiting on their response, if/when I get it we'll see if and how much of your stuff matches....:cocktail:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please read that two quotes above from Ace, these came from two consecutive post, is your cognitive skills that weak, did you really say you always post contact information then in the very next post not?


I'm SOOOO glad you brought that up!!

FACT: that was from a post on Tn deer forums, I couldn't find the post to get a link after some PM with some there a mod informed me the WHOLE THREAD had been pulled thanks to you and source!!! Fighting with the posters over that(anyone here doubt that?) ......hmmm

So, to recap, YOU helped get a thread pulled(lucky for me I saved that quote)....NOW after knowing this, question it(the quote) in public, as to why I didn't post a link.........that's weak and sad......

I guess it's possible YOU didn't have anything to do with it being pulled, then again, I can't see any reason for anyone to lie about that either and considering what IS going on there right now concerning you and source......well let's just say it's not very hard to believe, and your questioning it makes me think you knew the thread was pulled........it doesn't really matter I have shown a Tennessee hunter how has NO doubt that those over 65 ARE hunting MORE because of the crossbow!!!(and he's in a posistion to know btw) FACT 

Just as source pulled a quote from there, cut what he wanted to TRY to prove a point.......the REAL point was, he called a fellow hunter, injured NO less.............LAZY.....really sad and pathetic......

Btw FR , I thought you accused me of having "nothing" funny I showed you all these (again; what's it now a dozen times???) and this is ALL you had???

NOW I want either facts from you two, (just as I've provided) or nothing, I am NOT interested in your silly opinions on anything, I want YOU to PROVE what you've been saying with actual factual and relevent facts and proof, documented data(just as I have done upon your request).......NOT what YOU "think" some data is or may be saying..........fair enough? :darkbeer: 

We'll soon see, who has "nothing", so far the best you've ever been able to do is show hunter numbers are still on the decline(FACT is not as badly as they once were though):tongue: SO I conclude, that given that fact, NOW is the time for UNITY, and sharing!!


----------



## KOhunter

*Source...*



thesource said:


> First - I want (need?) to clarify - I do not speak for the Pope and Young club. My interpretation of their rules is just that....my interpretation.
> 
> You ask some very good questions - that I cannot answer. It seems logical that the rules of fair chase should be reviewed and updated periodically....but I doubt that they will be.
> 
> As you can tell by the message traffic here and elsewhere, more and more hunters espouse the letter of the law over the spirit of fair chase....they will do whatever is legal (and sometimes whatever they feel they can get away with.)
> 
> Although I feel that P&Y is the authority on bowhunting, what it is, how it should it be done .... not everyone does. Everytime they add more rules they risk alienating more bowhunters, and of course the industry.
> 
> I don't know if you golf or not, but I consider P&Y to be the bowhunting equivalent of the USGA. They can tell us what is right and proper, they can outline what is fair and unfair, but they cannot police the ranks. That is the job of the hunting (or golfing) community, but primarily each individual. That doesn't mean each individual gets to set his own rules (as cynic, for example, would have us believe.) It means each individual is responsible for following the rules and guidelines that have been given to us.
> 
> I find it sad that people spend so much time and energy looking for ways around the rules, or justifying their breaking a rule.
> 
> Hunting would be viewed more positively if every hunter followed the spirit of the rules.


Thank you for a well thought out response, without the bickering.
You bring up an analogy that I hadn't ever thought of...but I'm going to carry it a little further...For starters, the archery community, just as in the golfing community, the majority of the folks that choose to participate do not belong to the organizations that outline those rules. Not everyone that participates in these activities wants or aspires to hunt trophy animals or become a pro golfer. I'm not disagreeing with you that there should be somebody that gives guidance and parameters...I'm not a golfer, but heaven knows there are a ton of rules and guidelines.  The technology of today has turned the golfing community around as much as it has the archery community. I believe there are restrictions placed on the type of equipment you can use by pro golfers because they feel that there are unfair advantages by using some of this equipment. However, it doesn't apply to joe smoe out knocking balls down at the driving range. What if someone came out and starting telling everybody that their drivers couldn't be any larger than "this", of your putter had to be "that"...and you can't play or you are not a true "golfer". Variations of equipment do not make you any less of a golfer or archer, it's just different. I know that a lot of this is subjective, but I believe it comes down to choice...and yes I believe that a xbow is a bow, but that's just my opinion. Just as a wood driver is the same as a titanium, composite driver...again just opionion.
Thanks for letting me give my two cents.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> It really is the same misguided beliefs that motivate anti xbow bow bigotry and other bigotry. Here are the similarities
> 
> 1) we were here first-we thus are entitled to keep others out
> 
> 2) we are more worthy-we created the season, the newcomers did not
> 
> 3) they are selfish for wanting what we have
> 
> same mentality. same garbage. like the polite racists of a generation ago, we hear about "tradition" and "values" as an excuse for exclusion and apartheid.
> 
> its all the same way of thinking


You're a Nazi. There, maybe Godwin's Law can kill this stupid thread.

***Stop the name calling! Bellows1***


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> You're a Nazi. There, maybe Godwin's Law can kill this stupid thread.


I guess I really hit home. ITs true-Source claims that making people shoot one kind of bow filters out "undeseriables" what sort of hunter would call other hunters (read gun hunters who want to hunt with a bow) undeseriables or Lazy or cheaters.

The real nazis in archery are people who think like you PM-you aren't the master race just because you use a bow that is marginally tougher to master.


----------



## aceoky

KOhunter said:


> Thank you for a well thought out response, without the bickering.
> You bring up an analogy that I hadn't ever thought of...but I'm going to carry it a little further...For starters, the archery community, just as in the golfing community, the majority of the folks that choose to participate do not belong to the organizations that outline those rules. Not everyone that participates in these activities wants or aspires to hunt trophy animals or become a pro golfer. I'm not disagreeing with you that there should be somebody that gives guidance and parameters...I'm not a golfer, but heaven knows there are a ton of rules and guidelines.  The technology of today has turned the golfing community around as much as it has the archery community. I believe there are restrictions placed on the type of equipment you can use by pro golfers because they feel that there are unfair advantages by using some of this equipment. However, it doesn't apply to joe smoe out knocking balls down at the driving range. What if someone came out and starting telling everybody that their drivers couldn't be any larger than "this", of your putter had to be "that"...and you can't play or you are not a true "golfer". Variations of equipment do not make you any less of a golfer or archer, it's just different. I know that a lot of this is subjective, but I believe it comes down to choice...and yes I believe that a xbow is a bow, but that's just my opinion. Just as a wood driver is the same as a titanium, composite driver...again just opionion.
> Thanks for letting me give my two cents.


And that's the "rub", NO other group I can think of puts down others(in their own group) for their choices , gun hunters have no problems with what others use......strange isn't it?

When was the last time you heard a gun hunters say, the 30/30 is "more traditional", and shorter range than the 7mm mag, so I "deserve" or am "entitled" to more hunting time with it, and since it's much shorter range, I'm "elite", and you're not?? Doesn't happen, each hunter chooses their rifle, and accepts the other's choices as well, they hunt together and quite often share the same camp NO problems, NO division.......just hunters hunting together, regardless of weapons........

Truth be told MOST archers don't care either, but the few who continue to spew forth thier opinions and so called "wisdom", give us all a bad view in the public's eye, and in fact do us all great harm, the average person, who knows nothing about this, can easily think WE as bowhunters as a "whole" are selfish, elitist snobs who can't even get along with our own group!

That is in fact what this , "it's not a bow" and " it's not fair chase", "it's too easy" (too easy is like too much $$ no such thing btw)......

And it's important to note, that when challenged to provide facts, data and stats to back up ANY of their claims, they "vanish" for some time to only come back later and say the same BS all over again, NEVER having provided anything of substance!

I can only hope, that most realize this, AND that is NOT how we as a group act nor feel, and MOST don't concern ourselves with what another archery hunter chooses to use.....we hunt our way(whether longbow, recurve , compound, crossbow) and have NO problem with what the "other guys, gals, kids" are using, so long as they're legal, and having fun, and maybe even get a shot, WE as a group are happy indeed for them and that experience!

In short to the general public, it's very possible that a "few" are making us all look bad at our expense, that is why I have so much against their tactics, of the same ole same with nothing to back any of it up with....most of them realize the resources are in no danger, they simply have a problem with another fellow hunter's choice of archery weapon during an open archery season (often even in states where the crossbow for example is already legal, they'll go to those state forums and "stir" things, tell people how "wrong" they are(in their opinion) for allowing such a thing to occur!.....

IF they think this division they are creating is "good for bowhunting" as they claim, I have to wonder why they never notice, how upset they make thier own........??? I've lost count of the times I've seen them told, " I am not really for the inclusion/expansion, but please leave this alone you're not helping " etc.etc.etc. yet they insist to persist...........I have to wonder why???

How many times , have I, JimC, twogun, cynic etc.etc. asked them to PROVE why the crossbow shouldn't be allowed?? And yet not one shred of real evidence or reason, same ole same, biased, selfish opinions, which when put to "the test" won't hold up against real facts, the data, nor the available stats, and what's more as more states go to the expansion/inclusion, WE get even more data they can't dispute! Still they continue.......

In the end, those of us who ARE real hunters, continue to hunt, and enjoy the outdoors........without any regard or "concern" about what "Joe", or "Mary" , or "Little Bob" is hunting with, WE don't care, why do they, and SO much???


----------



## Jim C

Good Post Ace-the reason why you don't see facts is because none exist and its hard to factually argue about something that certain posters have no experience with.

If you have never hunted with a crossbow its rather ignorant to claim they have all these alleged advantages


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

We were talking about pope and young and their rules of fair chase.

_I said,

Have they ever changed their rules of fair chase? I think the answer is yes.
Do you have a history of the rule changes? Where can I find it?
I asked Pope and Young for it already. Directly.
I called them. They said they didn't have it. I'm sure the guy was up to his eyeballs in other more important things. I was thinking that maybe you have an awareness of the changes in rules, or even written documentation? _


*You said
First - I want (need?) to clarify - I do not speak for the Pope and Young club. My interpretation of their rules is just that....my interpretation.

You ask some very good questions - that I cannot answer. It seems logical that the rules of fair chase should be reviewed and updated periodically....but I doubt that they will be.*

You don't have to speak for pope and young. I'm not asking you to. Their rules speak for themselves. Who would you recommend that I go to if I can't get the history or rules of fair chase directly from pope and young? I would much rather get the straight scoop from pope and young then get misinterpretations from various folks that should or shouldn't be speaking for pope and young? 

If the previous rules are no longer important, and all that is important is what we are doing today, then would it be correct to assume that heritage/tradition are not important, and all that matters is what we're doing in the here and now?

IF pope and young wants to pull the heritage/tradition card AND use its preeminence as THE top bowhunting to influence state determined rules (of fair chase), should its history be an open book?

_I said 
How long have you been a member of Pope and Young._

*You didn't respond.*

That's okay if you don't want to. Its something I thought you'd be proud to
talk to other people about.

So you'd advocate that the rules should periodically be reviewed and changed if necesssary/appropriate. Would you also advocate that the history of rule changing be open for review?

_I said
What makes P&Y feel that they should stop the clock on what defines ethical treatment in an ever changing world?_

*You said
Although I feel that P&Y is the authority on bowhunting, what it is, how it should it be done .... not everyone does. Everytime they add more rules they risk alienating more bowhunters, and of course the industry. *

That's pretty true. I'm not asking them to tighten the clamp, right now. I might I'm not asking them to loosen it up, right now. I might. I'm just asking them to explain why the clamp is set the way that it is. I'm just asking them why the clamp was set the way it was before.

_I said
My last question is... what does it take to get P&Y to change their definition of fair chase? How does the process work?_

*You said, effectively
"...but I doubt that they will be."*

Me too. 


*You said
As you can tell by the message traffic here and elsewhere, more and more hunters espouse the letter of the law over the spirit of fair chase....they will do whatever is legal (and sometimes whatever they feel they can get away with.)*

I agree, but we got to...here is the bar...slide under it and you're good to go.
The more distance there is, the _more_ 'ethical' it is...e.g. the more of a fair chance that you gave the deer. More is good. Less is okay.
Just get under the bar, and we'll all consider it fair. Crossbows are over the bar. Unless you're disabled.

*You said
I don't know if you golf or not,* 

I'll stop you right there. I'm the guy that everyone else is always talking about hitting around. 

I understand what you're saying though. 

more later


----------



## aceoky

PMantle said:


> . There, maybe Godwin's Law can kill this stupid thread.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> THAT is another one of their famous "tactics" I've noticed when a thread gets so much fact and data in it some will try to get that thread "locked" or even deleted, to avoid the others from viewing all of it.........that pretty much proves for all , just how little they actually have on their side, otherwise they'd want the thread to be able to continue, so they could proves at least a part of what they continue to claim?????????
> 
> Thanks JimC, I appreciate it very much, I try to remain always civil (sometimes, I fail as I'm only human after all, even then it takes quite a bit of time), and to treat everyone with respect......
> 
> I try to remember we are all suposed to be hunters and therefore likely have much more in common than we do not have....


----------



## aceoky

Just get under the bar, and we'll all consider it fair. 

*Crossbows are over the bar. Unless you're disabled.*

I don't think so, but after all the data I've posted *proving *the compound often has the clear advantage in hunting situations, (higher success rates) why do you??

I just don't understand how anyone can view all of that data and still not clearly see the crossbow has NO hunting advantages at all over the compound.......all weapons have their "trade offs", however to claim on archery weapon(crossbows) as "not fair chase", and to say another is(compounds) even after seeing the advantage clearly goes to them "are fair chase" is confusing to me at least.....


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> I guess I really hit home. ITs true-Source claims that making people shoot one kind of bow filters out "undeseriables" what sort of hunter would call other hunters (read gun hunters who want to hunt with a bow) undeseriables or Lazy or cheaters.
> 
> And again, they seem to forget that Fred Bear wanted the "two season hunter" worked to include gun hunters in archery season , and in fact used that for a "selling point".....
> 
> The real nazis in archery are people who think like you PM-you aren't the master race just because you use a bow that is marginally tougher to master.


WE need more archery hunters to help keep the Anti-hunters "at bay", that is a fact, the Crosbow will help to do that , another fact........there is NO good reason to exclude them, and allow compounds.....fact


----------



## thesource

KOhunter said:


> Thank you for a well thought out response, without the bickering.
> You bring up an analogy that I hadn't ever thought of...but I'm going to carry it a little further...For starters, the archery community, just as in the golfing community, the majority of the folks that choose to participate do not belong to the organizations that outline those rules. Not everyone that participates in these activities wants or aspires to hunt trophy animals or become a pro golfer. I'm not disagreeing with you that there should be somebody that gives guidance and parameters...I'm not a golfer, but heaven knows there are a ton of rules and guidelines.  The technology of today has turned the golfing community around as much as it has the archery community. I believe there are restrictions placed on the type of equipment you can use by pro golfers because they feel that there are unfair advantages by using some of this equipment. However, it doesn't apply to joe smoe out knocking balls down at the driving range.


There are restrictions on the type of equipment for anyone who plays golf. Golf balls can be no smaller than a certain diameter, no more than a certain weight, go no farther than x yds when hit from a usga testing machine. Drivers can not be bigger than 460cc and cannot have a coefficient of restitution greater than .835, etc, etc, etc.

There is a giant list of equipment out there that conforms to usga rules. If you want to play golf by the rules, you cannot use non-conforming equipment. 

Are there people who use non-conforming equipment? Yea - weekend hackers. Serious golfers use conforming equipment .... you would be ridiculed as a cheater for using non-conforming equipment. 

*
The fact of the matter is that the USGA decides what conforms and what doesn't.... and what the rules are and aren't. In other words, what is fair and what is not.

It is not as official, of course, but for decades we as bowhunters have turned to P&Y to perform this same task for bowhunting. *


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> WE need more archery hunters to help keep the Anti-hunters "at bay", that is a fact, the Crosbow will help to do that , another fact........there is NO good reason to exclude them, and allow compounds.....fact


What a bold face lie if I have ever seen one. We need more hunters not archery hunters dingus. You contiually ask everyone why they care..whay they care... And you have the nerve to hide behid a facade that exploits handicapped people to horn into something you do not belong. Why do you care? You have NEVER shot one but are the loudest Mouth on here ( Sorry Jim you have been dethrowned). You are a mega poster...lost of word and LITTLE meaning. Where are all these links you said you provide you run and hide everytime the heat gets turned up. See your responses to the IN KY thread. you run and hide for two days until no one is looking and have some half crocked reply trhen you hide again. WE need more good bowhunters....not the hacks that come from gun season. look at all teh accident reports from any state. more in one week of gun season than a decade of bow season. Why is that? Haul brass back for an answer to that one.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin-lets try to think this through. we both know that many hunters won't fight unless it affects them. Now tell me why a gun hunter who has been told by the Source that he isn't welcome in Source's season with his crossbow would want to spend any energy fighting PETA when PETA goes after archery season.

You might have remembered the dove season in ohio where the Bambists tried to ban that new season. I spent many thousands and my wife spent lots of time fighting that. I did hear my share of hunters saying "I don't hunt dove" why should I contribute

I was general counsel for maybe the biggest gun club in Ohio. when the city of cincinnati banned "assault weapons" we had several assclowns in our club support it saying that if we didn't fight the semi auto ban maybe the politicians would leave their perazzi trap guns alone.

Constantly whining about gun hunters wanting to be in bow season is not only uncalled for, its politically stupid


----------



## Marvin

Lets talk about locking and deleting threads. Go ask the delete monster himself Brad jerman how many he has deleted or locked up. Modern christianity and the crossbow forum have a lot in common. They both try to hide the truth so nobody sees it and questions them.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Marvin-lets try to think this through. we both know that many hunters won't fight unless it affects them. Now tell me why a gun hunter who has been told by the Source that he isn't welcome in Source's season with his crossbow would want to spend any energy fighting PETA when PETA goes after archery season.
> 
> You might have remembered the dove season in ohio where the Bambists tried to ban that new season. I spent many thousands and my wife spent lots of time fighting that. I did hear my share of hunters saying "I don't hunt dove" why should I contribute
> 
> I was general counsel for maybe the biggest gun club in Ohio. when the city of cincinnati banned "assault weapons" we had several assclowns in our club support it saying that if we didn't fight the semi auto ban maybe the politicians would leave their perazzi trap guns alone.
> 
> Constantly whining about gun hunters wanting to be in bow season is not only uncalled for, its politically stupid



Jim ...the OBA fought long and hard for the dove season, And their on the NABC list. That line of think lends me to believe that we might as well just give EVERYONE 3 months to kill how and what they please so everyone is happy(I realize a fantasy land here jim). Would that not help solve the problem? If gun hunters are too stupid to believe that an attack on bow season would not put them next one the list then we are all doomed.


----------



## Free Range

Ace just so you know, I'm busy right now, and you posted a lot of information, so it will take some time for me to pull together the facts you want, and show where your facts fall short.


----------



## lioness

First let me say that I am new to AT as well as hunting, ( I hope to hunt with my bow this coming deer season) I must say that I find all this bickering among HUNTERS to to be very disconcerting. It seems to me that HUNTERS would be more concerned with preserving their right to HUNT and be able to ethically as well as adhering to the fair chase ethics, 
"Fair Chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over such animals." — Boone and Crockett Club,http://www.donmeredith.ca/outdoorsmen/FairChase.html 
not divide over what weapon any given HUNTER chooses to use, I know I will be grateful for the long season I will be able to utilize using my bow, and myself would not be bothered at all if HUNTERS were allowed to use a crossbow, a suggestion here might be that "traditional archers" (longbow & recurve) have their own season although maybe you should include crossbow in that since it has been around for thousands of years as a weapon. But, if not that, let them have their own season, and the a season for compund bow users ( which I am BTW, and is the newest invention of the four ) It seems to me that HUNTERS would worry more about the groups out there (I will not mention any names) trying to put a stop to HUNTING Period rather than fighting within the ranks. And personally I must say that attacking organizations that further and support HUNTING like Pope and Young, and Boone and Crockett that are TROPHY HUNTING organizations, but still donate a lot of revenue and time to HUNTING and preservation would seem to be detrimental as a whole whether you agree or not with their rule adjustments, http://www.pope-young.org/clubnews.asp It begs that if you are actually arguing the fair chase point you would be more concerned with things like the farms all over this Nation (U.S.A) that fence in wildlife for people to come shoot to acquire a trophyukey: or canned "hunt" ( where an animal is released a safe distance from some shooters and their dogs then killed)ukey: or I might add to the baiting of animals just before and during the season of that animal and the laws dealing with themukey: . well I know I have said a mouthful and will shutup for now but I had too add my .02 :zip:


----------



## cynic

Source you are avoiding my request..Are you unable to prove the request?are you going to come up with a reason why you can't or won't? We still have not gotten varification that you are a bowhunter or even that you are a hunter..
golf Pronunciation (glf, gôlf)
n.
A game played on a large outdoor course with a series of 9 or 18 holes spaced far apart, the object being to propel a small, hard ball with the use of various clubs into each hole with as few strokes as possible.
So if I chose to play golf with a group of my friends say hunting buddies. This is what rules I would play by. We would possibly use the same equipment since none of us own golf clubs nor would we care who had what nor would we cry foul because Jim has a better set and hits the ball farther. I do not believe nor will I accept a private organization dictating how I will enjoy what I do for recreation..If I chose to be in their private organization then and only then would what they considered be relevant to me... 

First and foremost I must say that I do not golf. secondly if I did golf the last thing I would worry about is what someone else had to say about what I chose to use, as I would not be competing. Lets take golf a step further *miniature golf*, Do you think those playing Putt-Putt outside the arcade are concerned about the USGA...Not, but it is still golf. It is still hitting the ball in the hole on the green(or what ever the carpet color is) in a hole with a golf club(putter)..
So as you guys are blind to the fact that P&Y is irrelevant to us. Just as USGA is irrelevent to me and HUNTING..The only organization that applies to all hunters is the LAW its that simple..Ethics is how far you will go without breaking the law..The LAW supercedes all of your private organization..The rules of the various DNR FWC supercede your private organizations...ALL private organizations are trumped by legislation remember that...Like it or not that is a fact...


----------



## lioness

:embara: I have to add quickly that when I say crossbow I mean the more primitive version of them that I have seen around, But in all fairness (after looking at the cabella magazine my husband has that modern crossbows should have their own season (if not being used by a disabled person) in that they have an DW of 185lbs and up. and 313 fps , and KE of 91.4 foot lbs, one would have to say that there is an advantage over compounds then add scopes the can be used it does move the modern crossbow into it's own division (above compounds, below guns) IMHO
P.S. I still don't think hunters should be divided over this.


----------



## Jim C

lioness said:


> :embara: I have to add quickly that when I say crossbow I mean the more primitive version of them that I have seen around, But in all fairness (after looking at the cabella magazine my husband has that modern crossbows should have their own season (if not being used by a disabled person) in that they have an DW of 185lbs and up. and 313 fps , and KE of 91.4 foot lbs, one would have to say that there is an advantage over compounds then add scopes the can be used it does move the modern crossbow into it's own division (above compounds, below guns) IMHO



looks can be deceiving. 185 pound compound crossbow doesn't shoot any farther than a 75 pound compound. What is with this desire to divide archery season up? sheeesh


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> looks can be deceiving. 185 pound compound crossbow doesn't shoot any farther than a 75 pound compound. What is with this desire to divide archery season up? sheeesh


 we divide gun season up...whats the hang up? goose and gander are both satisfied


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> looks can be deceiving. 185 pound compound crossbow doesn't shoot any farther than a 75 pound compound. What is with this desire to divide archery season up? sheeesh



LOL. Cause we know how typical those 75# compounds are...geesh.


----------



## thesource

lioness said:


> it does move the modern crossbow into it's own division (above compounds, below guns) IMHO
> P.S. I still don't think hunters should be divided over this.


I think that is where the majority of us would agree to place crossbows....above compounds and below guns. I agree with you that crossbows deserve their own season.

I don't think hunters should be divided over this either - and the sooner those others guys stop arguing, the better!


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

aceoky said:


> Just get under the bar, and we'll all consider it fair.
> 
> *Crossbows are over the bar. Unless you're disabled.*
> 
> I don't think so, but after all the data I've posted *proving *the compound often has the clear advantage in hunting situations, (higher success rates) why do you??
> 
> I just don't understand how anyone can view all of that data and still not clearly see the crossbow has NO hunting advantages at all over the compound.......all weapons have their "trade offs", however to claim on archery weapon(crossbows) as "not fair chase", and to say another is(compounds) even after seeing the advantage clearly goes to them "are fair chase" is confusing to me at least.....


You said "why do you?"

My post in this thread started with
"We were talking about pope and young and their rules of fair chase."
Pope and Young's assessment is that crossbows over the bar.

That's not my assessment.

You have every right to be confused by Pope and Young's position.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> what sort of hunter would call other hunters (read gun hunters who want to hunt with a bow) undeseriables or Lazy or cheaters.


A hunter of higher moral fiber than one who calls other hunters racists.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Ace just so you know, I'm busy right now, and you posted a lot of information, so it will take some time for me to pull together the facts you want, and show where your facts fall short.


That's "great", just remember I want REAL facts and data NOT your "opinion" of where the posted data "falls short" in "your view"! :tongue: 

IOW, I'm not one bit interested in your(or anyone else's ) "take" on the data, ONLY facts.......just the facts


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL. Cause we know how typical those 75# compounds are...geesh.



If you actually knew anything about crossbows (LOL!) you would realize that the VAST majority of hunting crossbows are 150 pounds. Percentage wise 75 pound compounds are far more common that 185+ crossbows but its a red herring anyway-you hate crossbows because what they do to your ego, not how fast they shoot


----------



## cynic

Lioness there are 57 compounds on the market shooting 313fps highest being 345 (APA black mamba), ranging from Kinetic energy from 76 to 119.
One of the more popular hunting bows to hit the scene Bowtech's new Tribute 328 fps and 119 lbs K.E...So while you point out that crossbow with 313 fps and 91.4 not much of a comparison...Sorry if this sounds as though I being negative towards your post


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL. Cause we know how typical those 75# compounds are...geesh.


Actually 13 of the 57 fastest bows commonly used for hunting do come in 80+ lb draw weights


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> A hunter of higher moral fiber than one who calls other hunters racists.



a funny comment coming from someone calling another hunter a nazi but I never said you were a racist-I just noted that anti xbow bigots follow the same arguments and train of thought -a sense of false entitlement and false airs of superiority that are not earned nor subject to verification as to merit


----------



## Bellows1

Going once.


----------



## Marvin

Bellows1 said:


> Going once.


Going twice


----------



## cynic

Talk about technology in the 2004 era there were approx 98 bows above 300fps, now just 2 yrs later ther are approx 156 bow configurations shooting 300+fps as hunterfriend does not list all manufacturers and now the same number of bows that shot 300+fps now shoot 310+ fps..talk about raising the bar where is P&Y? When will it stop...


----------



## aceoky

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> You said "why do you?"
> 
> My post in this thread started with
> "We were talking about pope and young and their rules of fair chase."
> Pope and Young's assessment is that crossbows over the bar.
> 
> That's not my assessment.
> 
> You have every right to be confused by Pope and Young's position.


Thank you very much, I wasn't sure if that was "your" position or theirs, thanks again for clearing it up, and I really don't care what P&Y says or doesn't they affect me in no way at all.......I am not intersted in their book, their opinions or their bias....


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> If you actually knew anything about crossbows (LOL!) you would realize that the VAST majority of hunting crossbows are 150 pounds.


Let's refer to the archery bible (my cabela's catalog) and see what they have to say on the subject:

TenPoint has 2 that are 185, 1 at 175, 1 at 165, and 1 at 150 lbs.

So far that's source (>150#) - 4, Jim (150#) - 1.

Horton has 3 at 175#, 2 at 150#.

Source - 7, Jim -3.

Parker - 3 at 150#. Jim's closing the gap...

Source - 7, Jim - 6.

Barnett - 4 at 150, 1 at 160

Excalibur -1-225, 1 at 200, 1 at 175.

Wow its a dead heat.

Source - 10, Jim -10.

But wait just aminute. Barnett's 150# bows have speeds exceeding 340 fps! 

What's up with that?

Oh yea, one other thing..... Jim said vast majority....wait make that VAST majority would be 150#.

LOL ... that means I proved Jim wrong on crossbows....again.
:rofl:


----------



## Jim C

source doesn't understand that Cabelas doesn't sell the top of the line compound bows-yet it does sell the top of the line Crossbows. Companies like Hoyt and Mathews won't let their stuff be sold mail order so you won't find the top compound speeds there in your BIBLE

Real archers know that
Pretenders don't

IF we limited hunting crossbows to the IBO rules would source have still posted 2000 posts-almost all of them about crossbows?

Any bets?

Source also assumes because in the last two years xbow weights have inched up in an idiotic speed fest the 10 years where 150 pound bows were the max no longer count.

most of the guys I see hunting in ohio have the 150 pound horton


----------



## Jim C

I also note (this comes from being a dealer and a pro shop staff shooter) that xbow guys tend to be far less into buying a new bow every year. I can count on one hand the number of people who came to RELOS with a 4 or 5 year old compound-when you saw that it was someone who was just starting out and given a hand me down or it was someone who inherited it. Most of the active compound archers bought a new bow every year or every other year.

not so with the crossbow hunters. we were constantly putting new strings or cables on early 90's model hortons and the first year Hunters (ten point) jobs. I saw over 250 different crossbow hunters and it was only the newer shooters or the 3D guys who were buying the heavy artillery.

Of course source, since you don't live in a state where people can hunt with crossbows you are relegated to making your statements based on what cabelas sells


----------



## aceoky

*MORE (DAta from GA)*

GEORGIA CROSSBOW HUNTING STATISTICS

*Summary* from *Nick Nicholson/Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist*


The following is *data from the state of Georgia *on the first two season where crossbows were legal. It appears from this data that *the crossbow has made a positive impact on the number of hunters and the desired goal of reducing the deer herd population.*


Deer Harvest Summary for 2002-2003

Archery Harvest (including crossbow)*

Thirty-five percent (35%) of deer hunters hunted with archery equipment. Twenty-four percent (24%) of these were successful in harvesting a deer. It took the average archery deer hunter about 30 days to harvest a deer and the average archery deer hunter spent 12 days hunting deer. Does made up 83% of the archery deer harvest. The table below provides additional information.

Archery Deer Hunters - 97,392

Archery Buck Harvest - 6,300

Archery Doe Harvest - 31,500

Total Archery Harvest - 37,800

Average Deer/Hunter - 0.4

** Number of hunters using a crossbow - 17,322*

Crossbow harvest - 4,429 (12% of archery harvest; 1% of total harvest)

Deer Harvest Summary for 2003-2004

Archery Harvest (including crossbow)*

Almost thirty-seven percent (37%) of deer hunters hunted with archery equipment. Twenty-nine percent (29%) of these were successful in harvesting a deer. It took the average archery deer hunter about 24 days to harvest a deer and the average archery deer hunter spent 13 days hunting deer. Does made up about 74% of the archery deer harvest. The table below provides additional information. 

Archery Deer Hunters - 111,682 (+14,290 from 2002-2003 )

Archery Buck Harvest - 15,300 (+9,000 from 2002-2003)

Archery Doe Harvest - 42,300 (+10,800 from 2002-2003)

Total Archery Harvest - 57,600 (+19,800 from 2002-2003)

Average Deer/Hunter - 0.5 (+.1 from 2002-2003 )

* Number of hunters using a crossbow - 22,136 (+4,814 from 2002-2003)

*Crossbow harvest - 10,313 (22% of archery harvest; 3% of total harvest)*

*(+5,884 from 2002-2003)*

Summary from Nick Nicholson/Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist 

It looks like Georgia has found a winner in crossbows...I received this information from the Senior Wildlife Biologist in Georgia..."I have just completed looking at Georgia's 2003-2004 hunter survey results. Because of the interest in crossbow hunting, we decided to take a closer look at crossbow harvest. I have included excerpts from the annual report below.

The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year that crossbows were legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia. Previously, only those hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows.

The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest during 2003-2004 increased by 55.3% and 168.0% respectively over 2002-2003. 

*To put these numbers more in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters for 2003-2004. Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of the 2003-2004 total Georgia deer harvest.*

Thirteen point five percent (13.5%) of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system. 

*Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow.* 

To estimate the real impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we must make several assumptions. The first is that new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting *did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve to crossbow.* 

The success rate for crossbows (.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (.51 deer/hunter). 


*Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds and it is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow.*

*There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004*. 



The raw estimates give us about *9,300 additional archers.* 


*A large part of this increase can be attributed to the 31.1% of crossbow hunters (6,884) who indicated they were new to archery hunting.*


Additionally, age structure *data *indicates an influx of older hunters into the crossbow hunter ranks. 

*A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.*


If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the .49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive for both of these groups, then 4,557 additional deer would be attributed to additional archery (crossbow) hunters. The 95% confidence interval for total harvest is plus or minus 7,818 deer.

These *data *and assumptions suggest that any additional harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level.

During 2002-2003 there was a small tendency for crossbow hunters to be older than the general hunter population. 

That trend continues for 2003-2004, particularly in age classes over fifty years old. Thirty four point six percent (34.6%) of the general hunter population is over 50 years old while forty three percent (43.0%) of crossbow hunters are over 50 years old. 



Older age groups show greater crossbow use for both seasons crossbows have been legal, however there also was an increase in crossbow selectivity this year by the 25-29 year age group. The average age for the general hunting population is 43.8 years. 

*The average age for crossbow hunters is 45.3 years.* 

This is a* summary of our results*. 

*A complete copy of the final report will be available soon*. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need any additional information." 

Nick Nicholson/*Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist*


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I also note (this comes from being a dealer and a pro shop staff shooter) that xbow guys tend to be far less into buying a new bow every year. I can count on one hand the number of people who came to RELOS with a 4 or 5 year old compound-when you saw that it was someone who was just starting out and given a hand me down or it was someone who inherited it. Most of the active compound archers bought a new bow every year or every other year.
> 
> not so with the crossbow hunters. we were constantly putting new strings or cables on early 90's model hortons and the first year Hunters (ten point) jobs. I saw over 250 different crossbow hunters and it was only the newer shooters or the 3D guys who were buying the heavy artillery.
> 
> Of course source, since you don't live in a state where people can hunt with crossbows you are relegated to making your statements based on what cabelas sells



i agree. crossbows are so far out ahead of the pack they don't need a new one every year. Warp speed with no effort at all.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> most of the guys I see hunting in ohio have the 150 pound horton


Jim,

Being the magnaminous fellow that I am, I'll grant you that most stringgunners don't use the maximum available.

But you will show your true character by answering this question - what do you think the average compound draw weight is in the hunting woods today?


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> GEORGIA CROSSBOW HUNTING STATISTICS
> 
> *Summary* from *Nick Nicholson/Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist*
> 
> 
> 
> The following is *data from the state of Georgia *on the first two season where crossbows were legal. It appears from this data that *the crossbow has made a positive impact on the number of hunters and the desired goal of reducing the deer herd population.*
> 
> 
> Deer Harvest Summary for 2002-2003
> 
> Archery Harvest (including crossbow)*
> 
> Thirty-five percent (35%) of deer hunters hunted with archery equipment. Twenty-four percent (24%) of these were successful in harvesting a deer. It took the average archery deer hunter about 30 days to harvest a deer and the average archery deer hunter spent 12 days hunting deer. Does made up 83% of the archery deer harvest. The table below provides additional information.
> 
> Archery Deer Hunters - 97,392
> 
> Archery Buck Harvest - 6,300
> 
> Archery Doe Harvest - 31,500
> 
> Total Archery Harvest - 37,800
> 
> Average Deer/Hunter - 0.4
> 
> ** Number of hunters using a crossbow - 17,322*
> 
> Crossbow harvest - 4,429 (12% of archery harvest; 1% of total harvest)
> 
> Deer Harvest Summary for 2003-2004
> 
> Archery Harvest (including crossbow)*
> 
> Almost thirty-seven percent (37%) of deer hunters hunted with archery equipment. Twenty-nine percent (29%) of these were successful in harvesting a deer. It took the average archery deer hunter about 24 days to harvest a deer and the average archery deer hunter spent 13 days hunting deer. Does made up about 74% of the archery deer harvest. The table below provides additional information.
> 
> Archery Deer Hunters - 111,682 (+14,290 from 2002-2003 )
> 
> Archery Buck Harvest - 15,300 (+9,000 from 2002-2003)
> 
> Archery Doe Harvest - 42,300 (+10,800 from 2002-2003)
> 
> Total Archery Harvest - 57,600 (+19,800 from 2002-2003)
> 
> Average Deer/Hunter - 0.5 (+.1 from 2002-2003 )
> 
> * Number of hunters using a crossbow - 22,136 (+4,814 from 2002-2003)
> 
> *Crossbow harvest - 10,313 (22% of archery harvest; 3% of total harvest)*
> 
> *(+5,884 from 2002-2003)*
> 
> Summary from Nick Nicholson/Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist
> 
> It looks like Georgia has found a winner in crossbows...I received this information from the Senior Wildlife Biologist in Georgia..."I have just completed looking at Georgia's 2003-2004 hunter survey results. Because of the interest in crossbow hunting, we decided to take a closer look at crossbow harvest. I have included excerpts from the annual report below.
> 
> The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year that crossbows were legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia. Previously, only those hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows.
> 
> The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest during 2003-2004 increased by 55.3% and 168.0% respectively over 2002-2003.
> 
> *To put these numbers more in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters for 2003-2004. Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of the 2003-2004 total Georgia deer harvest.*
> 
> Thirteen point five percent (13.5%) of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system.
> 
> *Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow.*
> 
> To estimate the real impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we must make several assumptions. The first is that new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting *did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve to crossbow.*
> 
> The success rate for crossbows (.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (.51 deer/hunter).
> 
> 
> *Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds and it is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow.*
> 
> *There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004*.
> 
> 
> 
> The raw estimates give us about *9,300 additional archers.*
> 
> 
> *A large part of this increase can be attributed to the 31.1% of crossbow hunters (6,884) who indicated they were new to archery hunting.*
> 
> 
> Additionally, age structure *data *indicates an influx of older hunters into the crossbow hunter ranks.
> 
> *A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.*
> 
> 
> If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the .49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive for both of these groups, then 4,557 additional deer would be attributed to additional archery (crossbow) hunters. The 95% confidence interval for total harvest is plus or minus 7,818 deer.
> 
> These *data *and assumptions suggest that any additional harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level.
> 
> During 2002-2003 there was a small tendency for crossbow hunters to be older than the general hunter population.
> 
> That trend continues for 2003-2004, particularly in age classes over fifty years old. Thirty four point six percent (34.6%) of the general hunter population is over 50 years old while forty three percent (43.0%) of crossbow hunters are over 50 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> Older age groups show greater crossbow use for both seasons crossbows have been legal, however there also was an increase in crossbow selectivity this year by the 25-29 year age group. The average age for the general hunting population is 43.8 years.
> 
> *The average age for crossbow hunters is 45.3 years.*
> 
> This is a* summary of our results*.
> 
> *A complete copy of the final report will be available soon*. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need any additional information."
> 
> Nick Nicholson/*Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist*



I thought you said that the crossbow is what the VAST MAJORITY wanted. Yet only 20% of archery hunters uses them. what happened to the rest of them that wanted this HUGE void filled in their hunting experience. You keep squeeling about thats what the majority of the bill payers want so why aren;t they using it Ace? By Your estimates there should be a LARGE INFLUX of users cause thats what they want....where are they?


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *estimate assumptions assume assumptions suggest *
> 
> That pretty much says it all.....


----------



## thesource

Marvin said:


> I thought you said that the crossbow is what the VAST MAJORITY wanted. Yet only 20% of archery hunters uses them. what happened to the rest of them that wanted this HUGE void filled in their hunting experience. You keep squeeling about thats what the majority of the bill payers want so why aren;t they using it Ace? By Your estimates there should be a LARGE INFLUX of users cause thats what they want....where are they?


Not to mention that only 31% are new to archery. I thought we would be adding new hunters by the boatload - these aren't even new archery hunters! 

Probably incompetent compounders like (no names please, but you know who you are) who are looking for an additional advantage.


----------



## cynic

While he searches his cabellas catalog there again has no relevance to me...
Bowtech black Knight2 a whopping 350 fps
APA Black Mamba what 345fps
bowtech Tribute which if you look in the bowhunting forum is a very popular this years model boasting 119lbs of kinetic energy..

Out of 16 TENPOINT hunting crossbows listed on huntersfriend does anyone know how many have listed speeds in excess of 315fps...wrong NONE ranging in the 165#-185# class

Dare to compare that to the most commonly used compounds


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> i agree. crossbows are so far out ahead of the pack they don't need a new one every year. Warp speed with no effort at all.



that is silly marvin and you are too smart to post such drivel. effort in bow hunting is far more than shooting the bow and we all know that your arguments against xbows tend to center on your feelings about people who use them, not the bow. I have yet to see any of you agree that if xbows were say limited to IBO specs that you would drop your opposition.


----------



## Marvin

thesource said:


> Not to mention that only 31% are new to archery. I thought we would be adding new hunters by the boatload - these aren't even new archery hunters!
> 
> Probably incompetent compounders like (no names please, but you know who you are) who are looking for an additional advantage.


 

classic source. I would expect to see the numbers of crossbow users multiply 10 fold since that what the majority WANTS I am okay about pacifying other interests as long as they are in the proper place. I will be right back. I am going to go out and look for that majority. BRB


----------



## thesource

Jim -
you still don't need to draw in the presence, or have 2 plane sighting. You still can't torque it from either end like a real bow. You are still advantaged, and still not bowhunting.

But I agree xbows would be more patable if there were a speed limit.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Not to mention that only 31% are new to archery. I thought we would be adding new hunters by the boatload - these aren't even new archery hunters!
> 
> Probably incompetent compounders like (no names please, but you know who you are) who are looking for an additional advantage.


hey source, do you know where lots of trads come from? compound archers who have developed common problems that come from trying to shoot a compound without proper instruction

people migrate to trads because form seems to be a dirty word to many trads. If you snap shoot or don't come to full anchor with a compound you stick out like a sore thumb on a compound range. that sort of crap is prevalent in trad circles. I remember watching the best target longbow shooter in the country shoot (his form was the same he used to earn a place on the 84 olympic team as was many time lady longbow champion and world target champion Ann Weber Hoyt) and hearing some trads whining about the fact Glenn anchored and stood up straight like an olympic shooter (duh)
Trad archery is full of lousy form because as they say, the way to hide a hippo is in a herd of hippos.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Jim -
> you still don't need to draw in the presence, or have 2 plane sighting. You still can't torque it from either end like a real bow. You are still advantaged, and still not bowhunting.
> 
> But I agree xbows would be more patable if there were a speed limit.



and you are still lying. As I said Source-you haven't the credentials to tell me or anyone else what bowhunting is and you haven't the education or experience to tell me what bow is advantaged. try again source and citing cabelas isn't going to cut it


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> that is silly marvin and you are too smart to post such drivel. effort in bow hunting is far more than shooting the bow and we all know that your arguments against xbows tend to center on your feelings about people who use them, not the bow. I have yet to see any of you agree that if xbows were say limited to IBO specs that you would drop your opposition.



Well that question has never been asked. Do you mean ibo specs at in 5 grains per pound or a speed limit?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> hey source, do you know where lots of trads come from? compound archers who have developed common problems that come from trying to shoot a compound without proper instruction
> 
> people migrate to trads because form seems to be a dirty word to many trads. If you snap shoot or don't come to full anchor with a compound you stick out like a sore thumb on a compound range. that sort of crap is prevalent in trad circles. I remember watching the best target longbow shooter in the country shoot (his form was the same he used to earn a place on the 84 olympic team as was many time lady longbow champion and world target champion Ann Weber Hoyt) and hearing some trads whining about the fact Glenn anchored and stood up straight like an olympic shooter (duh)
> Trad archery is full of lousy form because as they say, the way to hide a hippo is in a herd of hippos.



More bowbashing, Jim?

A leopard cannot change his spots.

By the way, why would there be compound ranges when you keep saying compounders don't practice? 

Somebody's fibbing again! 


By the way - answer my question about typical compound draw weight.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you haven't the education or experience to tell me what bow is advantaged.


LOL.

You may have the edge in crossbow experience, but my engineering degree might hold a tad more credibility than a political science degree if we are comparing physical principles.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Jim,
> 
> Being the magnaminous fellow that I am, I'll grant you that most stringgunners don't use the maximum available.
> 
> But you will show your true character by answering this question - what do you think the average compound draw weight is in the hunting woods today?



probably around 65 In Ohio based on what we saw people buying and its getting lighter as bows get faster

it matters not-why do you argue on issues that have nothing to do with your obsession Source? its like liberals who whine about gun crime when in reality they want to ban guns for reasons that have nothing to do with crime control?

you hate crossbows based on your self image as a bowhunter. arguing about crossbow speeds is a red herring and intellectually dishonest. you consider xbow archers lazy and unworthy and you defame them by saying they aren't bowhunters. YOu clearly have personal issues and your attempts to justify your bigotry based on faux claims that xbows are unfair is patently pretextual

your unwillingness to be honest over 2000 posts proves I am correct as to you.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> You may have the edge in crossbow experience, but my engineering degree might hold a tad more credibility than a political science degree if we are comparing physical principles.



physical principles have nothing to do with your issues Source. I have noted the philosophical principle that this is a free nation and the burden is on those who wish to restrict the recreational pursuits of others

I also note the precedent established by longbow, recurve and compound archers is being followed by crossbow archers and you and your ilk hypocritically condemn us for doing what others before us did.

that has nothing to do with physics source. that is why you lose because you cannot win on physical principles and you have absolutely no argument on philosophical grounds while even if I were to concede (to someone who is completely unlearned as to xbow hunting) that xbows have a theoretical physical advantage I still have the winning philosophical argument that you are anti freedom and since you have already conceded xbows won't hurt the herd you have to argue restrictions for the sake of restricting liberty and not for a greater good


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> probably around 65 In Ohio based on what we saw people buying and its getting lighter as bows get faster


Its less than that, and you know it.

Regardless, it sure as heck isn't 75# as you tried to imply earlier. 

And it is less than the IBO specs that you and your lackey cynic like to toss around. The truth is, most bowhunters use heavier hunting arrows than IBO, too...but you already know that too.

So while you like to pretend that compounds and crossbows are ballistically equivalent, in PRACTICE the crossbow has a significant advantage.

No one is fooled, JIm. Everyone knows the truth. Crossbows do not belong in bowseason.


----------



## Free Range

> By Ace post # 509 fair chase thread AT
> Forget where I found this one, but I saved it, let's see what it says shall we......
> _________________________________________
> 
> I don’t know how well you’ve been paying attention to the kid’s pictures that have graced these pages, but several of them have taken their harvest with a crossbow.
> 
> - Fact - There are thousands of sportsmen and women out there who would love to try bow hunting but can’t because they can’t pull a covenantal bow back.
> 
> What does my father, Tom Sunderlin, use at 78 years old? A 150-pound pull Horton Hunter that he bought 15 years ago. We have a matched set. You see, he bought mine for me as a birthday present. Although I seldom use it anymore, I will own it until the day I hopefully pass it on to a grandchild.
> 
> What did my daughter, Stacey, use when she started out at 10 years old? My Horton. Now, she has her own, a Horton Excalibur, 175-pound pull, with a Red Dot scope on it. She’s high tech!


Well using your tactic, I can disregard this completely, right? After all no source or link is quoted. But lets go ahead and assume you didn’t make this up. What we have here is a nice story, first it says that in fact there are thousands of sportsmen and women that would love to hunt in archery season but can’t draw back a bow. Now where did this fact come from, nothing is sited no study quoted, just someone’s opinion, and we don’t even know who’s opinion at that. I thought we were talking facts not someone’s opinion, the only fact there is, in fact this persons opinion is, that there are thousands of people that cant draw a bow. Myth busted.

Next is Mr. Sunderlin, 78 yrs old using a x-bow. OK I give that must be a fact, how is that an over all gain to hunting, can this man not use a gun? And what happens when he is bed ridden, should we hook him up to a computer and a joy stick so he can hunt from his bed? Even Fred Bear had to give up hunting in the years before he died. Myth Busted

Next sweet little Stacy, 10 years old and shooting an x-bow, good for her, I assume it’s legal for her to do so, you didn’t tell us what state this is in. What does this prove Ace? You keep saying these people wouldn’t be or become, or still be hunters if not for the x-bow. They both could still hunt if they wanted to, with a gun, no shame in that, like you say so often most hunters al indeed gun hunters. Myth Busted

You see here is the difference, you, and maybe it’s because you hunt with a gun more then I do. But you don’t think gun hunters will vote for us, when the chips are down. I do. You think we need to make bow season just as crowded as gun season, I don’t. I think we are fine, and I believe my brother gun hunters will step up to the plate a vote pro bow hunting when we need them to, you don’t. 

Now these are nice stories, but they are just that isolated stories, if there was any whole sale movement of older hunters, coming back, or 10 year olds, coming in, or women taking up hunting for the first time, because of the x-bow, don’t you think over all hunter numbers would be showing an upward trend in the states that allow them? In fact if you want to disassociate the numbers and just make stuff up, try this on for size. In states that allow x-bow hunting, overall hunter numbers are dropping, I say it’s because of the x-bow. Now I don’t really believe that, but it makes as much sense as you claiming the slowing down of the lose of hunters is because of the x-bow. 

I will in time answer the rest of your posts, but one at time, and maybe we can get down to some real info.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Well that question has never been asked. Do you mean ibo specs at in 5 grains per pound or a speed limit?



IBO has two limits on compound bows, a weight limit on longbows and a weight and speed limit on crossbows

for compound bows, you can shoot 5 grains per pound at any speed you want or you can be limited in speed (I believe its around 280). this allows short draw archers to get decent speed even if its 4 grains a pound.

Longbows at one time were either 80 or 90 pounds-can't remember-I can't pull anything like that after my shoulder went out

crossbows 190Lbs limit AND 300 FPS limit


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I also note the precedent established by longbow, recurve and compound archers is being followed by crossbow archers and you and your ilk hypocritically condemn us for doing what others before us did.


More crossbow lies.

Longbow and recurve hunters fought for (and won) their own season.

You crossbow hunters are more interested in usuroing an existing season than creating your own.

Parasitic, don't you think?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Its less than that, and you know it.
> 
> Regardless, it sure as heck isn't 75# as you tried to imply earlier.
> 
> And it is less than the IBO specs that you and your lackey cynic like to toss around. The truth is, most bowhunters use heavier hunting arrows than IBO, too...but you already know that too.
> 
> So while you like to pretend that compounds and crossbows are ballistically equivalent, in PRACTICE the crossbow has a significant advantage.
> 
> No one is fooled, JIm. Everyone knows the truth. Crossbows do not belong in bowseason.



Everyone knows the truth-again this proves you fibbing again just look at the posts on this board.

calling cynic my lackey is a violation of the rules source

You are losing it source. You can't prove your claims about typical compound weights when 60-70 is still the vast majority of bows sold and you can't prove a significant advantage

NO OBJECTIVE test has proven you right and again IBO tournaments thrash your crap

NOTE HOW SOURCE AVOIDS TELLING US HIS TRUE MOTIVATIONS


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> More crossbow lies.
> 
> Longbow and recurve hunters fought for (and won) their own season.
> 
> You crossbow hunters are more interested in usuroing an existing season than creating your own.
> 
> Parasitic, don't you think?



YOu are lying again
compounds fought to be included in the existing archery season

please keep on lying. posts like that prove how dishonest you are


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> YOu are lying again
> compounds fought to be included in the existing archery season


Did I SAY compounds .... duh. 

Someone needs to slow down and read.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Did I SAY compounds .... duh.
> 
> Someone needs to slow down and read.


ignoring compounds is dishonest source. you act as if there were trads and now crossbows are trying to steal what is theirs


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> ignoring compounds is dishonest source. you act as if there were trads and now crossbows are trying to steal what is theirs


You are just being argumentative.

Here's what you said:
_
I also note the precedent established by longbow, recurve and compound archers is being followed by crossbow archers and you and your ilk hypocritically condemn us for doing what others before us did._

I have correctly pointed out that you (crossbows) are not at all doing what those trad guys did when they formed the first season.

You lumped all 3 together (wrongly, I might add).


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> It is not as official, of course, but for decades we as bowhunters have turned to P&Y to perform this same task for bowhunting. [/B]


No doubt some bowhunters turn to P&Y.

There are 3M bowhunters in the US. Don't they, as a rule, turn to their state and local government for definitions of allowable equipment?

Has P&Y ever done a poll to determine their stature among hunters overall?
Such as a poll to 1000 registered bowhunters across the US, with the question

"Who sets the standards for equipment use in bowhunting?"


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> I thought you said that the crossbow is what the VAST MAJORITY wanted. Yet only 20% of archery hunters uses them. what happened to the rest of them that wanted this HUGE void filled in their hunting experience. You keep squeeling about thats what the majority of the bill payers want so why aren;t they using it Ace? By Your estimates there should be a LARGE INFLUX of users cause thats what they want....where are they?


Well, they ARE legal there for the archery season, so I guess THAT FACT proves they were wanted???


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> aceoky said:
> 
> 
> 
> *estimate assumptions assume assumptions suggest *
> 
> That pretty much says it all.....
> 
> 
> 
> YES it does , shows AGAIN you cut and USE what benefits you while leaving out important FACTS such as(but not limited to)
> 
> Nick Nicholson/*Georgia Senior Wildlife Biologist*
> 
> 
> 
> *The following is data from the state of Georgia*
> 
> But why am I NOT surprised that YOU would cut out and ONLY use a small part, oh yeah, it IS what YOU do....
Click to expand...


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Not to mention that only 31% are new to archery. I thought we would be adding new hunters by the boatload - these aren't even new archery hunters!
> 
> Probably incompetent compounders like (no names please, but you know who you are) who are looking for an additional advantage.


Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (*6,884*) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. 

Let's see here 6,884 NEW archery hunters, WHAT number would YOU consider to be " adding new hunters"???

I'd say THAT is an awesome start in an area they are badly needed......

Keep proving what YOU are *really * all about......MOST would be very happy with that data........MOST HUNTERS anyway, and MOST BOWHUNTERS........:darkbeer: 

The FACT that you are not speaks volumes......btw


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*

post 607...when you get the time.

Thanks,


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> classic source. I would expect to see the numbers of crossbow users multiply 10 fold since that what the majority WANTS I am okay about pacifying other interests as long as they are in the proper place. I will be right back. I am going to go out and look for that majority. BRB



I said *in KY the Majority *have proven they wanted them, twice(two seperate surveys) ....fwiw

As usual, YOU having nothing else, so you * try* to say I said one thing knowing I said an entirely different thing......all the while it's YOU and YOURS who have said those of us in favor of expansion/inclusion are " extremeists", and "out of touch with the mainstream" (shall I post that for you) 

Always insults and false accusations and opinions, never ANYTHING of any substance......typical and pathetic...


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> aceoky said:
> 
> 
> 
> *estimate assumptions assume assumptions suggest *
> 
> That pretty much says it all.....
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you "think" YOUR opinion is more valued than the SENIOR Wildlife Bilogist in the State this comes from??
> 
> Thank you for proving how full of yourself you really are!:cocktail:
Click to expand...


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> You may have the edge in crossbow experience, but my engineering degree *might* hold a tad more credibility than a political science degree if we are comparing physical principles.


"might" being the "operative word" in that......

YOU have changed enough things(including other hunter's posts) to try to suit YOUR own purpose at this point YOU have lost ALL credibility in my opinion, and I seriously doubt that I'm anywhere NEAR being alone on that......


----------



## aceoky

*Free Range*

FR nice "rant" but once again, I do NOT want YOUR OPINION(s) on what is posted I want YOU to try to disprove the DATA I have posted with YOUR OWN relevent DATA and FACTS ......I'm no longer responding to "rants" "opinions" etc. UNLESS they are accompanied by verifiable facts........YOU asked for them.......you got them, NOW I want to see YOURS.......:darkbeer:

AS for that one you mentioned, I said I forgot where it came from and did NOT call it data nor fact, but it DOES show WE are not alone in those beliefs IF nothing else fwiw

NOW

This quote from YOU

You see here is the difference, you, and maybe it’s because you hunt with a gun more then I do. But you don’t think gun hunters will vote for us, when the chips are down. I do. You think we need to make bow season just as crowded as gun season, I don’t. I think we are fine, and I believe my brother gun hunters will step up to the plate a vote pro bow hunting when we need them to, you don’t. 

WHAT MY POINT IS AND WAS IS:

IF YOU AND YOURS keep on pi$$ing them off by posting negative of gun hunters there *may *come a time, when they ARE needed to protect you AND CHOOSE NOT TO DO SO.....period...

And btw........I hunt 90%+ with a bow.........I have a 400+ yard range here on the farm, I reload and shoot a great deal, *I shoot a gun on a very regular basis* and at extended ranges.......I've proven to be a "great rifle shot", that is NOT the same as "hunting a great deal with a gun"........fwiw

ONE more thing, archery is archery, allowing the CB is NOT going to "crowd the woods" and even IF it did(it won't hasn't anywhere), YOU have NO right to keep others out......using archery period

BTW, I shoot a bow much more than all of my guns, AND have TWO ranges just for that......one up to 75 yards..........YES I know , I"m blessed to be able to do all of that.........FACT is, I shoot a bow the most.......hunt with a bow MUCH more.........NONE of that has any bearing at all......on what I beleive, which is.........more archers is more better.......disprove that ......IF YOU can


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> and . As I said Source-you haven't the credentials to tell me or anyone else what bowhunting is and you haven't the education or experience to tell me what bow is advantaged. try again source and citing cabelas isn't going to cut it


AGREED! 

I would not buy a NEW car from him, much less take with even a grain of salt ONE word he spews about what "is" bowhunting........those who've "been there and done that" can easily see through his "stuff"


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> No one is fooled, JIm. Everyone knows the truth. Crossbows do not belong in bowseason.


Yup NO one is fooled, about you and your "tactics" and exactly which groups they benefit.....nothing new there though.....

YOUR "obsession" with what others *choose* to use(another archery weapon during archery season) speaks volumes to ALL....


----------



## TXWhackMaster

*It sure would be nice...*

My 12 yr old daughter is scared of the report of anything larger that a .22. She is not strong enough or adept enough to hunt with a compound bow. She is very confident with her crossbow. It sure would be nice to have her sit in a blind with me during this bow season and kill a deer.
The arguments of physics and draw weight, etc, etc don't make much sense to me but a 12 year old girl with daddy in a blind with her crossbow sure qualifies for "fair chase" and fun in my book. I am striving for maximum field time in the safest environment possible with my daughter. Gun season does not accomplish this.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> You are just being argumentative.


"Pot" calling the kettle "black"???


----------



## aceoky

*EXACTLY, and thank you!*



TXWhackMaster said:


> My 12 yr old daughter is scared of the report of anything larger that a .22. She is not strong enough or adept enough to hunt with a compound bow. She is very confident with her crossbow. It sure would be nice to have her sit in a blind with me during this bow season and kill a deer.
> The arguments of physics and draw weight, etc, etc don't make much sense to me but a 12 year old girl with daddy in a blind with her crossbow sure qualifies for "fair chase" and fun in my book. I am striving for maximum field time in the safest environment possible with my daughter. Gun season does not accomplish this.


I've spent the better part of two years *trying to * explain that FACT to a couple who "think" they "know better".......thank you , that is what it will take, enough like you come forward and prove them wrong MOST will then understand it's NOT about anything more than opportunity, NOT for those who can already bowhunt..........for those who can NOT at this time for whatever reason(s)......

THEY don't care about these people *I* do,. and though I have never even shot one(crossbow ) in my life, I have been around them being shot quite a bit (especially in the past year)......THEY don't care IF NEW Hunters or even "new to archery hunters" JOIN US, (they say as long as they do it their way fine, they'll accept them) but the truth IS they like the woods to themselves(see Free Range's last post about the crossbow "crowding the woods like gun season") THAT is the REAL reason THEY all oppose this......even though WE have proven time and time again, it's not going to happen and has NOT anywhere........

Again thanks for taking the time to post YOUR thoughts and why it would help you and your child.......MORE of that will show those "on the fence" what this is REALLY ALL ABOUT


----------



## thesource

TXWhackMaster said:


> My 12 yr old daughter is scared of the report of anything larger that a .22. She is not strong enough or adept enough to hunt with a compound bow. She is very confident with her crossbow. It sure would be nice to have her sit in a blind with me during this bow season and kill a deer.
> The arguments of physics and draw weight, etc, etc don't make much sense to me but a 12 year old girl with daddy in a blind with her crossbow sure qualifies for "fair chase" and fun in my book. I am striving for maximum field time in the safest environment possible with my daughter. Gun season does not accomplish this.


I agree that crossbows are perfect for little girls....


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> post 607...when you get the time.
> 
> Thanks,


I'm not sure what you are looking for, here.

You didn't ask any questions.

I think your anaology of "limbo" is pretty accurate, if that's what you are looking for. You need to get under the bar .... and farther is better.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I agree that crossbows are perfect for little girls....


NOW YOU"VE gone "too far", how dare YOU insult another hunter's child like that??  

Your "lack of character" and "judgement" are astounding!!! 

You seriously should seek professional help imho


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> thesource said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you "think" YOUR opinion is more valued than the SENIOR Wildlife Bilogist in the State this comes from??
> 
> Thank you for proving how full of yourself you really are!:cocktail:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I understand the differnce between "data" and "conclusions".
> 
> Data is hard and fast. You do not "estimate" or "assume" data.
> 
> Aceoky, you have proven yourself to be a true partisan. You jump all over anything that leans your way and pronounce it "fact" or "data", yet you denounce anything that refutes your position as "spin," no matter how bulletproof the source is.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from - I just wouldn't want to live there.
Click to expand...


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> NOW YOU"VE gone "too far", how dare YOU insult another hunter's child like that??
> 
> Your "lack of character" and "judgement" are astounding!!!
> 
> You seriously should seek professional help imho



Dude, what is your problem?

I said "I agree that crossbows are perfect for little girls..." How is that insulting his little girl?

I am already on record as supporting crossbows for youths.

You are looking kind of foolish here (again)


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Not to mention that only 31% are new to archery. I thought we would be adding new hunters by the boatload - these aren't even new archery hunters!
> 
> Probably incompetent compounders like (no names please, but you know who you are) who are looking for an additional advantage.


* Number of hunters using a crossbow - *17,322 *


*Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. *

NOT hardly what you wanted to see, and certainly NOT what you're trying to "say" .........sad and pathetic......

YOU talk about "bowbashing" at every single chance you get.........

YET YOU.....insult EVERY single hunter out there........including YOUTH HUNTERS........

YOU "think" you're "helping bowhunting"??

YOU are sadly and badly mistaken.........


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Dude, what is your problem?
> 
> I said "I agree that crossbows are perfect for little girls..." How is that insulting his little girl?
> 
> I am already on record as supporting crossbows for youths.
> 
> You are looking kind of foolish here (again)


EVERYONE .............KNOWS what YOU meant......you sir are more than pathetic.......NO WAY you're going to "squirm out of that" EVER


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> aceoky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I understand the differnce between "data" and "conclusions".
> 
> I seriously doubt YOU "understand ANYTHING"
> 
> Data is hard and fast. You do not "estimate" or "assume" data.
> 
> Did YOU miss the BOLD parts where DATA was used to establish the "assumptions" OR did YOU decide to imply YOU are more qualified than the GA Senior Biologist (again, I remember last time YOU said that, didn't go so well now did it) :darkbeer: :cocktail:
> 
> Aceoky, you have proven yourself to be a true partisan. You jump all over anything that leans your way and pronounce it "fact" or "data", yet you denounce anything that refutes your position as "spin," no matter how bulletproof the source is.
> 
> IF quoting THE SENIOR WILDLIFE BILOGIST IN GA ......is doing that , well then I guess I'm guilty as charged
> 
> I understand where you are coming from - I just wouldn't want to live there.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't want you in the woods with me, no where around YOU are NOT stable(at best)
Click to expand...


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. *


Yup - those are the gun hunters that have sat on their butts unwilling to pick up a real bow.

Now....subtract the lazy gun hunters from the 6,884 new "archery" hunters....and THAT is how many new hunters you gained in GA by legalizing stringguns.


You have that number, aceoky? Well? What would that be? Any idea?

Anything?

I didn't think so.

You have no proof of new hunters, regardless of how much you squeal and bellyache.

All wind.


----------



## KOhunter

thesource said:


> Yup - those are the gun hunters that have sat on their butts unwilling to pick up a real bow.
> 
> Now....subtract the lazy gun hunters from the 6,884 new "archery" hunters....and THAT is how many new hunters you gained in GA by legalizing stringguns.
> 
> 
> You have that number, aceoky? Well? What would that be? Any idea?
> 
> Anything?
> 
> I didn't think so.
> 
> You have no proof of new hunters, regardless of how much you squeal and bellyache.
> 
> All wind.


Careful Source,
I know you probably didn't mean how it sounds...but the way these statements come across is that, anyone who hunts with a gun is lazy and doesn't belong in my woods. I think you could have worded it better, without bringing people into your argument, who choose to hunt with a gun. I have not put much stalk in it before, but the way you are coming across with your arguments is starting to really sound like anybody that doesn't hunt with a bow is beneath you. Not good for the hunting community.


----------



## Jim C

Jim C said:


> Here is the bottom line-I want to hunt with my crossbow and I want to hunt in archery season before the deer are spooked by guns-just like the compound guys
> 
> Source has conceded my hunting with a crossbow for this period won't hurt the herd
> 
> Is there any possible argument that remains in favor of the source's position that can be justified
> 
> NO



<crickets>


----------



## aceoky

KOhunter said:


> Careful Source,
> I know you probably didn't mean how it sounds...but the way these statements come across is that, anyone who hunts with a gun is lazy and doesn't belong in my woods. I think you could have worded it better, without bringing people into your argument, who choose to hunt with a gun. I have not put much stalk in it before, but the way you are coming across with your arguments is starting to really sound like anybody that doesn't hunt with a bow is beneath you. Not good for the hunting community.


.

NOPE that is *exactly* what HE meant to say......he's done it more than enough here and elsewhere to be obvious.........

"NOT good for the hunting community" true HE does NOT care!

You see, source, Free Range, and Marvin do NOT care about ANYONE , other than what THEY want for THEMSELVES.......and in fact "brag" about that fact!!

Read their own posts......you'll see......

At least FR is "fairly good" at NOT using personal insults to TRY to prove thier point the other two don't even stop "there" THEY will make FALSE accusations(that they will NEVER back up, because they can't) and continue to do so, regardless of how many times they ARE ASKED to do so.........what does THAT tell you?

FACT: these 3 are NOT the only ones who do NOT agree with ME or US.........they ARE the ONLY 3 (count them here folks) who have the "nerve" to dispute actual facts and "think" their "opinoins" count more than facts by the experts AND continue to make FALSE accusations, when "pressed" can't even try to back them up.......

CONCLUSION: these THREE "think" that 

A.) FALSE accusations matter
B.) Their "opinions" mean more than actual facts and data
C) THEY "deserve" something WE do not, but can't say why
D) THEY admit the CB won't be a negative impact on the resource, BUT "others" who "won't do it THIER WAY DON'T BELONG anyway
E.)Can NOT tell us why that is, no matter how many times WE ask......or how we ask(what does that tell you)
F) are so "full of themselves" they feel "better" than all of us including Jim C who has done SO MUCH for this sport......on THAT I "rest my case"


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Yup - those are the gun hunters that have sat on their butts unwilling to pick up a real bow.
> 
> Now....subtract the lazy gun hunters from the 6,884 new "archery" hunters....and THAT is how many new hunters you gained in GA by legalizing stringguns.
> 
> 
> You have that number, aceoky? Well? What would that be? Any idea?
> 
> Anything?
> 
> I didn't think so.
> 
> You have no proof of new hunters, regardless of how much you squeal and bellyache.
> 
> All wind.


YOU are ONLY helping US......the FACT you still dont' "get that " is great for me and US

Me "squeal and bellyache."

YOU wish.........I DID in fact show NOT ONLY NEW hunters but NEW archery hunters.........what have YOU shown..

Besides YOUR insulting every group of hunters "out there" NOTHING that is what....

AND what IS worse than you have NOTHING.......YOU only help the ANTI-HUNTERS.......

You are "hopeless" , "helpless" and in need of "pity"\

YOU source are SO sad as to say there are NO words in the English language to even express you or Marvin.....

YOU two "think" that "personal' attacks " take the place of FACTS.......you two "think" that INSULTS mean "something"......

YOU TWO......are 'out of touch with the manistream" (isn't that HOW you try to lable US?)

IT ........IS "sad" when YOU "few" have NOTHING to offer, YOU MUST resort to THAT AND THOSE tactics........

IT"S even MORE SAD when it's PROVEN you few dont' even back up ONE claim with ANY facts or data......but YOU few, question what IS provided........even though YOu have NOTHING to even try to dispute it with..........

BUT the REALLY sad thing IS

YOU FEW.......have to attack hunters......gun hunters........the ucbk........B&C.........to TRY to make a point that NO one cares about.......to make YOURSELVES feel better about YOURSELVES...........sad..pathetic........and useless

IF any of you "few" WERE hunters by now YOU would ALL know the damage YOU"RE doing to HUNTING.........BECAUSE YOU FEW DO NOT 

ONE has to conclude

A.) YOU FEW are only "pretending to be hunters"
B,) what YOU FEW want IS more important than what others want..............SO YOU FEW will feel "better" for who YOU are (in your own minds)


THERE IS NO (C) 

SO which IS it??

How's that for "heat" Marvin?????:cocktail: :cocktail: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: 
3


LIKE I said........EVERYTHING IS ON MY SIDE.......I don't "run" have NO need to do so.....RATTLE RATTLE all YOU wish.........in the end WE will win because WE are right and NOT selfish and elite and "think" we deserve something WE never did the first thing to even have.........YOU FEW............"think" that you should have it your way "just because"

WE WILL SEE


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> You are just being argumentative.
> 
> Here's what you said:
> _
> I also note the precedent established by longbow, recurve and compound archers is being followed by crossbow archers and you and your ilk hypocritically condemn us for doing what others before us did._
> 
> I have correctly pointed out that you (crossbows) are not at all doing what those trad guys did when they formed the first season.
> 
> You lumped all 3 together (wrongly, I might add).



Here is the history and tradition of bow season:



> Rules, regulations, seasons and bag limits are usually restrictive, but in the case of bowhunting for deer, *regulations have been liberalized through the years to allow more people more opportunity to enjoy the sport*.
> 
> The very first bowhunting seasons were only a few days long, but now archers can hunt in steamy weather or snow, thanks to a season that lasts for three and a half months - from Oct. 1 through Jan. 15.
> 
> Although at first only open to bucks, deer of any sex now may be taken, and the limit is two deer. In management areas 58 and 59, representing St. Louis and Kansas City, respectively, archers can purchase up to five Urban Archery Deer Permits.
> 
> Originally limited to hunting in certain "deer rich" areas, archers now hunt for deer in every county of the state. In fact, urban deer hunting has become extremely popular among city hunters and allows the Conservation Department to help manage deer in areas where harvest options are limited.



And here is the compound's contribution:




> New Bow Compounds Hunters
> 
> Hunter numbers grew tremendously following the introduction of the compound bow. Patented by Missourian Wilbur Allen in 1966, the compound bow changed the look of archery, turning the bow into a block and tackle affair, with pulleys at either end.
> 
> Although ungainly in looks, the "wheel bow" made it easier for archers to pull and hold strong hunting weights and to deliver arrows accurately into a target.
> 
> *No longer was the skill of shooting a bow the most difficult to master component of bowhunting. Thanks to the bow's mechanical advantages over a simple stick and string, archers could quickly become proficient enough to become capable and responsible bowhunters.*
> 
> Within a few years the compound bow took over the archery market, almost completely displacing recurves and longbows.


----------



## thesource

KOhunter said:


> Careful Source,
> I know you probably didn't mean how it sounds...but the way these statements come across is that, anyone who hunts with a gun is lazy and doesn't belong in my woods. I think you could have worded it better, without bringing people into your argument, who choose to hunt with a gun. I have not put much stalk in it before, but the way you are coming across with your arguments is starting to really sound like anybody that doesn't hunt with a bow is beneath you. Not good for the hunting community.


Gunhunters hunting in gunseason are fine.

gunhunters who want to hunt in bowseason are fine too - if they get off there butt, grab a bow, and learn to shoot it.

Gunhunters who sit on their butts and whimper and whine for crossbow legalization so THEN they can hunt in bowseason = LAZY.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Here is the history and tradition of bow season:


A bow season - looks like MO. Not all bow seasons. Your wordsmithing is always impressive, twogun. You spin with class.



twogun said:


> No longer was the skill of shooting a bow the most difficult to master component of bowhunting. Thanks to the bow's mechanical advantages over a simple stick and string, archers could quickly become proficient enough to become capable and responsible bowhunters.


ROFLMAO.

If its so easy, what does that say about all those who are too incompetent to hunt with a compound and need a crossbow instead?


Too funny.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Gunhunters hunting in gunseason are fine.
> 
> gunhunters who want to hunt in bowseason are fine too - if they get off there butt, grab a bow, and learn to shoot it.
> 
> Gunhunters who sit on their butts and whimper and whine for crossbow legalization so THEN they can hunt in bowseason = LAZY.


compounds are great-they allowed alot more people to bowhunt source. why are you fine with that but so obsessive about crossbows. IN BOTH CASES, these versions of bows made shooting far less difficult-it allowed people to really be part time archers but competent bowhunters. 

Do you think you help bowhunting by constantly bashing gun hunters source? I have heard some really top gunhunters who say they tire of snobby elitist nobodies who call them lazy for using a gun. What do you help with your insults?


----------



## Jim C

Jim C said:


> <crickets>


 *HEY SOURCE WHERE ARE THOSE THIN CROSSBOW BOLTS YOU SAID CABELAS WAS SELLING*


----------



## Free Range

> FR nice "rant" but once again, I do NOT want YOUR OPINION(s) on what is posted I want YOU to try to disprove the DATA I have posted with YOUR OWN relevent DATA and FACTS ......I'm no longer responding to "rants" "opinions" etc. UNLESS they are accompanied by verifiable facts........YOU asked for them.......you got them, NOW I want to see YOURS.......



Not so fast Ace, you provided the ground rules, facts only, I’m just weeding through your opinion pieces, trying to get down to the facts. Maybe if you wouldn’t have posted 4 pages mostly filled with opinion we could go straight to the facts. 
And as for ground rules here are a couple more, one for a fact to be relevant it must have only one meaning, posting a number and claiming that number means one thing, when it could possibly mean something completely different, is an opinion, not a fact. And if you are going to us an opinion as to what the fact means then you must stat it is an opinion, to do otherwise is outside the boundaries of this debate. 



> NOW YOU"VE gone "too far", how dare YOU insult another hunter's child like that??
> 
> Your "lack of character" and "judgement" are astounding!!!
> 
> You seriously should seek professional help imho


He did not insult his daughter, where the heck were you when, I forget who it was that asked if I had to get permission from my mother? She pasted away a few years ago, and I stated that, that was in far worse taste the saying the x-bow is suited for little girls. We see your colors now, it’s only an insult if it is said about a pro x-bow person. Nice Ace, I just lost a little more respect for you.


----------



## twogun

> thesource said:
> 
> 
> 
> A bow season - looks like MO. Not all bow seasons. Your wordsmithing is always impressive, twogun. You spin with class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wordsmithing hell. Show me *one state*, any state, where what I quoted doesn't apply. You can't refute the point, so you label it as spin, pathetic. The FACT is that every state's bowseason has followed the same evolution of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regulations have been liberalized through the years to allow more people more opportunity to enjoy the sport.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As the herds have grown so have the opportunities.
> 
> If you can show any of this to be spin, show it, please. Otherwise this is just *ANOTHER* example of you not being able to back up your claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROFLMAO.
> 
> If its so easy, what does that say about all those who are too incompetent to hunt with a compound and need a crossbow instead?
> 
> 
> Too funny.[/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For most, need has got nothing to do with it.. The original archery seasons weren't a matter of "need". The inclusion of compounds wasn't a matter of "need". Mechanical releases, treestand use, and all the other advancements haven't been a matter of "need". I'd guess that 99.9% of hunters don't "need" to hunt at all. *We do it because we can and we enjoy it.* The same applies to the equipment we* choose* to use.
Click to expand...


----------



## twogun

Jim C said:


> *HEY SOURCE WHERE ARE THOSE THIN CROSSBOW BOLTS YOU SAID CABELAS WAS SELLING*



Easy there Jim. Source doesn't like the big, bold letters


----------



## Jim C

twogun said:


> Easy there Jim. Source doesn't like the big, bold letters



source doesn't like supporting his claims with facts either. If he actually knew something about crossbows he would understand that thin shafts won't work on a track designed for a 22/64 diameter bolt any more than a 38 caliber ball works in a 50 caliber muzzleloader (note to source-I am not comparing muzzleloaders with crossbows nor insinuating that they are similar weapons)


----------



## aceoky

Free Range, the man wanted to allow his daughter to hunt with him in the same blind she's good enough with a crossbow to do so IF it were legal, not one positive word was said about any of that, only "I agree crossbows are perfect for little girls" which WAS an insult to him and to her AND to all who wish to include them.......anyone can see that???

I don't care who it is, nor which "side" they're on, it's "crossing the line", to insult other hunters and even more so when it's NEW hunters including YOUTH hunters IMHO


----------



## aceoky

FR, that "opinion peice" also mentioned PAGES full of successful youth crossbow hunters, but you don't like to acknowlege that......fair enough......it's my opinion, that you went "too far" with the old man and when he can NO longer hunt, the idea is for him to be able(read allowed to) as long as he's able, the "other stuff" was in poor taste again in my opinion.......

It's also obvious that the author's father had bought him a crossbow to start archery with, he no longer uses it, guess he "moved on " to another bow, but again, you fail to notice or mention that fact...

As far as the little girl, I think that is great! YOU "assume" that she could gun hunt, yet you have NO clue, whether she is recoil sensitive, or report sensitive, YOU make "guesses" and "assumptions" on what he is stating from his own experience, I felt it relevent(wish I'd saved the link to the whole thing though....to be honest , I can't figure out how I failed to do so)

Those DATA and numbers from the various states AND the GA DATA SUMMARY given by the Senior Wildlife Biologist , is NOT opinion.......so there are several documented facts for you to "sift" through, and like it or not YOU said I couldn't prove recruitment and retention........YET I did! 


Here is but one that proves just that!

The following is *data from the state of Georgia *on the first two season where crossbows were legal. 

** Number of hunters using a crossbow - 17,322 *

*Thirty one point one percent (31.1%) of crossbow hunters (6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. *


There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004. 


The raw estimates give us about 9,300 additional archers. 

A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.Sounds like "retention" there to me



ANY way you "slice it" that's recruitement for all of US

So much for your "assumption" that there is NO data to support my claim for retention and recruitment!!! Myth Busted!


----------



## Free Range

I guess you didn’t read the ground rules. Raw numbers mean nothing, the numbers show an increase in hunters during archery season. It doesn’t tell us if these are gun hunters, that are now using a x-bow to hunt in archery season, it doesn’t tell us if the over 65 hunters are gun hunters now using the x-bow to hunt during bow season. It doesn’t tell us if it is recruiting new hunters, it only shows us there are more hunters in archery season, period. 
Now if you want to claim it is recruiting and retaining, then you are perfectly within your right to your opinion to do so. I see these same numbers and they tell me something completely different. They tell me gun hunters that were not willing to learn how to use a bow are now flooding into archery season. And I don’t see the benefit, to this, they were hunters before, and are still hunters, no net gain. 
And as for the insult, only someone blinded as you are could see that as an insult to the little girl. It may will have been an insult to anyone using a x-bow that is not a little girl, but it was certainly not an insult to say something a little girl is using is suited for little girls. 



> A portion of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by the legalization of crossbows.Sounds like "retention" there to me


Yes and it is just as likely they had switched to other forms of hunting and now came back to archery season. Again, I don’t see a net gain here



> So much for your "assumption" that there is NO data to support my claim for retention and recruitment!!! Myth Busted!


No, you have to do better, the only thing you did was provide your opinion as to what the numbers mean. The only possible way you can prove recruitment is to show an over all increase in hunter numbers, and we have provided plenty of proof that hunter numbers are dropping.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Gunhunters hunting in gunseason are fine.
> 
> gunhunters who want to hunt in bowseason are fine too - if they get off there butt, grab a bow, and learn to shoot it.
> 
> Gunhunters who sit on their butts and whimper and whine for crossbow legalization so THEN they can hunt in bowseason = LAZY.


That is ONLY your opinion..........

Fred Bear, WANTED gun hunters in archery and in fact worked for that and used it to "sell" the original season, YOU source are NO Fred Bear, ......


----------



## Free Range

As for little girls and old men using the x-gun. Most of us agree that getting kids involved in hunting and spending time with them is a good thing. What I don’t agree with is when anyone tries to claim the x-bow is the only way, or even the best way. Do you really think teaching a 10 year old that all they have to do is learn how to sight in a x-bow, craw in a blind and pull the trigger is a good thing? What happen to starting from the bottom and working your way up? What happen to learning how to hunt the smaller game animals first, learning woodsmenship, learning the rewards of working for something? Where is this 10 year old to go from here? For most hunters in the USA killing a deer is the highest level of hunting one can strive for. What is next, killing a buck, then a big buck, she should have that done by age 15 don’t you think? Where is the hard work and payoff. 

And as for the old man, why is it out of line to ask if he should be allowed to use a computer when he gets too old to even make the trip out into the woods? After all, the only thing that really matters is that he be allowed to hunt for as long as he can, right? You have some nerve to say he should be stopped from hunting when he can no longer shoot a x-bow, very hypocritical of you there sport.


----------



## Free Range

Fred Bear said here I will teach you how to shoot a bow, and if you are dedicated enough to learn then we want you, I am no Fred Bear either, but that is exactly what Thesource and Marvin, and the rest of us are saying too.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> I guess you didn’t read the ground rules. Raw numbers mean nothing, the numbers show an increase in hunters during archery season. It doesn’t tell us if these are gun hunters, that are now using a x-bow to hunt in archery season,
> 
> NOT relevent, anyone should KNOW that NEW ARCHERS *are* NEW archers! It matters NOT where they came from, gun hunters, golfers, the mini mall NEW IS NEW!
> 
> 
> 
> it doesn’t tell us if the over 65 hunters are gun hunters now using the x-bow to hunt during bow season. It doesn’t tell us if it is recruiting new hunters, it only shows us there are more hunters in archery season, period.
> 
> That IS what matters! Duh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now if you want to claim it is recruiting and retaining, then you are perfectly within your right to your opinion to do so. I see these same numbers and they tell me something completely different.
> 
> Sure YOU do, now back up YOUR "claims" with facts and data, as I have done, again "opinions" don't count
> 
> 
> They tell me gun hunters that were not willing to learn how to use a bow are now flooding into archery season.
> 
> THEY (gun hunters) pay MOST of the bills in most every state, they are welcome to do so IF they wish to....without them and their $$$ WE would have nothing.......period
> 
> 
> 
> And I don’t see the benefit, to this, they were hunters before, and are still hunters, no net gain.
> 
> AGain, YOUR opinion, PROVE that IF you can, some likely were, NOT likely they all were.......besides, the "burden of proof is upon YOU few)
> 
> 
> And as for the insult, only someone blinded as you are could see that as an insult to the little girl. It may will have been an insult to anyone using a x-bow that is not a little girl, but it was certainly not an insult to say something a little girl is using is suited for little girls.
> 
> In the manner it was "said" it was without a doubt, YOU don't wish to see it because it hurts your cause and agenda, however it is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and it is just as likely they had switched to other forms of hunting and now came back to archery season. Again, I don’t see a net gain here
> 
> "NET GAIN"???? Get over YOURSELF please! NEW archers IS GOOD FOR ARCHERY......period.....YOU can't change that FACT
> 
> 
> 
> No, you have to do better, the only thing you did was provide your opinion as to what the numbers mean. The only possible way you can prove recruitment is to show an over all increase in hunter numbers, and we have provided plenty of proof that hunter numbers are dropping.


NO I provided DATA, AND FACTS that SAY NEW ARCHERS!!

THAT is NOT "opinion" that is FACT

YOU *try* to say "they may have" "might have", THAT is opinion, the facts are what they ARE .......FACTS

How YOU choose to interpret them is of NO interest to me......IF you can find relevent FACTS that disprove them "be my guest", I know you can't, and even IF you show "hunter numbers are dropping' you can NOT prove they would be dropping slower or faster due to the crossbow 

*I* have shown NEW ARCHERS as a FACT

You don't like that, it doesn't suit your "cause" or "agenda", that's fine, it however does NOT keep them from being relevent FACTS......


*(6,884) indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow.* 
FACT

There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters for 2003-2004. FACT


The raw estimates *give us about 9,300 additional archers.* DATA


What they may or may not have been = OPINION (and doesn't matter, ALL that matters IS they are NEW archery hunters..............why can't YOU accept that is good for a 'dying sport"???? (archery) NEW archers IS good for archery any "thinking person" would realize that FACT right then.........


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Fred Bear said here I will teach you how to shoot a bow, and if you are dedicated enough to learn then we want you, I am no Fred Bear either, but that is exactly what Thesource and Marvin, and the rest of us are saying too.


It's "funny" then, that Ted Nugent(who was taught by Fred Bear himself how to shoot a bow, ) IS PRO-CROSSBOW then isn't it?? :cocktail: :darkbeer: :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> As for little girls and old men using the *x-gun*.
> 
> Anyone who uses a non-existant word is not worthy of a serious conversation or discussion imho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of us agree that getting kids involved in hunting and spending time with them is a good thing. What I don’t agree with is when anyone tries to claim the x-bow is the only way, or even the best way. Do you really think teaching a 10 year old that all they have to do is learn how to sight in a x-bow, craw in a blind and pull the trigger is a good thing? What happen to starting from the bottom and working your way up? What happen to learning how to hunt the smaller game animals first, learning woodsmenship, learning the rewards of working for something?
> 
> 
> 
> THAT IS A TOP SELLING POINT OF THE ANTI-HUNTING GROUPS, who have stated WE KNOW that if a youth doens't hunt by the time they're 15 yrs old the EVIDENCE is they won't hunt ALL WE need to do, is keep out them during those crucial years!!!!! Hmmm interesting
> 
> 
> Where is this 10 year old to go from here? For most hunters in the USA killing a deer is the highest level of hunting one can strive for. What is next, killing a buck, then a big buck, she should have that done by age 15 don’t you think? Where is the hard work and payoff.
> 
> NOT YOUR problem or concern, THAT is her dad's decision to make, NOT your(or mine for that matter).........I started hunting at a VERY young age still do it as often as possible and in a couple or three states, that "horse wont' run"
> 
> And as for the old man, why is it out of line to ask if he should be allowed to use a computer when he gets too old to even make the trip out into the woods? After all, the only thing that really matters is that he be allowed to hunt for as long as he can, right? You have some nerve to say he should be stopped from hunting when he can no longer shoot a x-bow, very hypocritical of you there sport.


It's "out of line" because you TRIED to take his importance away by stating (at least in some way) that he was only getting older what about when he could no longer hunt, newsflash, WE will all be there one day....(some sooner than others) I would like to THINK WE all matter.........rather than saying in a few years he can't hunt......so "what then" that is NOT relevent NOR in good taste imho........guess YOU don't have a problem, so long as it fits your "agenda"...........sad but to "each their own" I suppose


----------



## Free Range

> NOT relevent, anyone should KNOW that NEW ARCHERS are NEW archers! It matters NOT where they came from, gun hunters, golfers, the mini mall NEW IS NEW


Are we going to stop the rest of this nonsense, and just try to decide if new Archers are a good thing or not? Have we changed the rules yet again? Because if we are only taking about new archers then all else does not matter. 



> THEY (gun hunters) pay MOST of the bills in most every state, they are welcome to do so IF they wish to....without them and their $$$ WE would have nothing.......period


And all this time I thought it was the DNR that should have sole say in what should and should not be done in hunting seasons. Which is it Ace, gun hunters or the DNR’s, you keep flopping back and forth so much it’s hard to get a handle on it. 



> AGain, YOUR opinion, PROVE that IF you can, some likely were, NOT likely they all were.......besides, the "burden of proof is upon YOU few)


And it’s only your opinion they are not, the burden of proof is on those wanting to change the season, not on those of us whishing it to remain as it is. 



> "NET GAIN"???? Get over YOURSELF please! NEW archers IS GOOD FOR ARCHERY......period.....YOU can't change that FACT


How? How is new archers good for bowhunting? I know that sounds a little off, but really how is it good? Why do we need new archers, are we in danger of losing our season? Has there been any actual attempts to out law bowhunting? And if so was it even close. And how is adding x-bows to archery season good? Other then the few that may really want to hunt with a bow but can’t, and the few bow hunters that might switch to the x-bow out of some fascination or frustration with not being able to kill a deer with a bow. Who will be using a x-bow, gun hunters would be my guess, and what will gun hunters do if bow season is closed? Go back to the gun would be my guess. What stake do they have in the fight to save bowhunting? So I ask you what good, what actual benefit does adding more archers give us?


----------



## Free Range

It's "funny" then, that Ted Nugent(who was taught by Fred Bear himself how to shoot a bow, ) IS PRO-CROSSBOW then isn't it??

Not at all, we are talking about Ted after all. 
:darkbeer: ukey:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Well using your tactic, I can disregard this completely, right? After all no source or link is quoted. But lets go ahead and assume you didn’t make this up. What we have here is a nice story, first it says that in fact there are thousands of sportsmen and women that would love to hunt in archery season but can’t draw back a bow. Now where did this fact come from, nothing is sited no study quoted, just someone’s opinion, and we don’t even know who’s opinion at that. I thought we were talking facts not someone’s opinion, the only fact there is, in fact this persons opinion is, that there are thousands of people that cant draw a bow. Myth busted.
> 
> *Next is Mr. Sunderlin, 78 yrs old using a x-bow. OK I give that must be a fact, how is that an over all gain to hunting, can this man not use a gun? And what happens when he is bed ridden, should we hook him up to a computer and a joy stick so he can hunt from his bed? *.
> 
> IF you can't see why that is very poor taste IMHO , then so be it......
> 
> 
> 
> Even Fred Bear had to give up hunting in the years before he died. Myth Busted
> 
> Next sweet little Stacy, 10 years old and shooting an x-bow, good for her, I assume it’s legal for her to do so, you didn’t tell us what state this is in. What does this prove Ace? You keep saying these people wouldn’t be or become, or still be hunters if not for the x-bow. They both could still hunt if they wanted to, with a gun, no shame in that, like you say so often most hunters al indeed gun hunters. Myth Busted
> 
> HOW do YOU KNOW this? Have you seen her shoot a gun? Can YOU prove to all of us recoil/report doesn't bother her?? Can YOU also show us why SHE should NOT be allowed in archery season??? Didn't think so YOU are busted!
> 
> You see here is the difference, you, and maybe it’s because you hunt with a gun more then I do. But you don’t think gun hunters will vote for us, when the chips are down. I do. You think we need to make bow season just as crowded as gun season, I don’t. I think we are fine, and I believe my brother gun hunters will step up to the plate a vote pro bow hunting when we need them to, you don’t.
> 
> Now these are nice stories, but they are just that isolated stories,
> 
> 
> Enough "isolated stories" become DATA ....thought you would know and understand that and EACH and EVERY year WE get even more of them
> 
> 
> if there was any whole sale movement of older hunters, coming back, or 10 year olds, coming in, or women taking up hunting for the first time, because of the x-bow, don’t you think over all hunter numbers would be showing an upward trend in the states that allow them?
> 
> They ARE, it just takes time to compile the facts fo the matter, WE can wait.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I will in time answer the rest of your posts, but one at time, and maybe we can get down to some real info.


Once again, I *try * to show you the *truth* and you refuse to accept it, and instead make insulting remarks against other hunters YOU have never met, make "assumptions" about a little girl you also have never met(you said what state, so I know you have NO information on her)..........

NOW it's fairly easy to see, that while I had the data and facts all along as I said, I didn't care to post it........YOU seem to "think" that your opinions on facts and data can change them, FACT is they don't and can't it is what it "is"......

NOW I won't claim these to be facts , but only because I failed to save the link to the story, YOU also (again) failed to take note of the Pages of youth hunters(crossbow harvests) with their smiling faces why would YOU want to NOT allow that???

OH yeah, as long as you can keep it to yourselves that is all that matters! OR do it "my way" or NOT at all.........good thing for ALL of us, YOU don't get to make those decisions!:darkbeer: :cocktail:


----------



## Free Range

> THAT IS A TOP SELLING POINT OF THE ANTI-HUNTING GROUPS, who have stated WE KNOW that if a youth doens't hunt by the time they're 15 yrs old the EVIDENCE is they won't hunt ALL WE need to do, is keep out them during those crucial years!!!!! Hmmm


Did I say not to let them hunt? No Ace, and your attempt to link me with anti hunters is shameful, but I expect nothing less. 



> NOT YOUR problem or concern, THAT is her dad's decision to make, NOT your(or mine for that matter).........I started hunting at a VERY young age still do it as often as possible and in a couple or three states, that "horse wont' run"


As did I, but most of us didn’t kill our first deer at age 10. Most of us spent years chasing rabbits or squirrels, then maybe ground hogs, or upland birds, or maybe waterfowl, then graduated if you will to big game. And again I didn’t say he shouldn’t take his daughter hunting. I said the x-bow is not the only way, and therefore is not a fact based argument to allow them in archery season. 



> It's "out of line" because you TRIED to take his importance away by stating (at least in some way) that he was only getting older what about when he could no longer hunt, newsflash, WE will all be there one day....(some sooner than others) I would like to THINK WE all matter.........rather than saying in a few years he can't hunt......so "what then" that is NOT relevent NOR in good taste imho........guess YOU don't have a problem, so long as it fits your "agenda"...........sad but to "each their own" I suppose


Nice dodge there Ace, answer the question well you? I said what happens when he can no longer shoot an x-bow? What then Ace, are you telling him he is of no more importance when that time comes?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Are we going to stop the rest of this nonsense, and just try to decide if new Archers are a good thing or not? Have we changed the rules yet again? Because if we are only taking about new archers then all else does not matter.
> 
> 
> 
> And all this time I thought it was the DNR that should have sole say in what should and should not be done in hunting seasons. Which is it Ace, gun hunters or the DNR’s, you keep flopping back and forth so much it’s hard to get a handle on it.
> 
> IT IS the JOB of the DNRs (or whatever they may be called in differnet states) to provide as much opportunity as the resources can handle and remain in "good shape' and healthy, it IS up to HUNTERS to request changes to be made (at least often that's the case) the DNR would then study this and see IF it's a 'good thing" or NOT.......then make a decision based upon FACTS AND DATA.......AND THAT IS EXACTLY HOW COMPOUNDS BECAME LEAGAL ARCHERY EQUIP......with that being said, which group of HUNTERS is by far the largest............best use your heads here gentlemen.....you're "messing"with the wrong group to continue to insult gun hunters.....I'm starting to get very tired of saying that truth......btw
> 
> 
> 
> And it’s only your opinion they are not, the burden of proof is on those wanting to change the season, not on those of us whishing it to remain as it is.
> 
> WRONG, IF you wish to keep it all to yourselves it's up to YOU to prove WHY it should NOT be allowed.........we've shown why it should , be
> 
> 
> 
> How? How is new archers good for bowhunting? I know that sounds a little off, but really how is it good?
> 
> You just may be correct there, how many politicians check the number of hunters before deciding on a bill........IF numbers DON"T matter, I guess you may have a point......OH wait......numbers DO matter! THAT is why it's "good" NOT to mention when something quits growing it begins to "die".....there is more.......but that is "good for now"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we need new archers, are we in danger of losing our season? Has there been any actual attempts to out law bowhunting?
> 
> Funny coming from YOU the one who says IF we let crossbows in next it will be "any season, any weapon'.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if so was it even close. And how is adding x-bows to archery season good? Other then the few that may really want to hunt with a bow but can’t, and the few bow hunters that might switch to the x-bow out of some fascination or frustration with not being able to kill a deer with a bow. .
> 
> NOT your decision to make who gets to use what during archery season, as more states prove this, and the "sky doesn't fall", perhaps you'll realize all the "whys"???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who will be using a x-bow, gun hunters would be my guess, and what will gun hunters do if bow season is closed? Go back to the gun would be my guess. What stake do they have in the fight to save bowhunting? So I ask you what good, what actual benefit does adding more archers give us?


I answered that above, IF it's not good enough, perhaps YOU will show us all why MORE ARCHERS is a "bad thing"??? And NOT the "woods will be overrun", hasn't happened anywhere and you can't back that claim up with ANY data, besides bowhunters are supposed to be "elite" according to you guys, certainly "elite" hunters know how to get farther back away from the crowds, gun hunters do it every year! :cocktail: :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Did I say not to let them hunt? No Ace, and your attempt to link me with anti hunters is shameful, but I expect nothing less.
> 
> YOU didn't have to "say it", her dad had already stated
> A.) she can't shoot a compound well enough
> B.) She couldn't stand the report of anything larger than a .22, so the crossbow IS the only way she can hunt, take that away, and YES you're saying she can't hunt
> 
> What I said, is true and I stand behind it 100% that IS one of their many tactics......don't want to be associated with that, then don't use their tactics.......
> 
> 
> As did I, but most of us didn’t kill our first deer at age 10. Most of us spent years chasing rabbits or squirrels, then maybe ground hogs, or upland birds, or maybe waterfowl, then graduated if you will to big game. And again I didn’t say he shouldn’t take his daughter hunting. I said the x-bow is not the only way, and therefore is not a fact based argument to allow them in archery season.
> 
> Who are YOU to try to decide, what his daughter should hunt, or when, or with what??
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge there Ace, answer the question well you? I said what happens when he can no longer shoot an x-bow? What then Ace, are you telling him he is of no more importance when that time comes?


NO he IS still of importance as I feel we are all, and that day will come upon all of us(unless we die or are killed first).........so what? 

I find it in bad taste for you to speak in this manner of another hunter , much less a senior hunter , and you have no clue as to what he may have done for all of us during his time here.......


What about what WE did, while we were hunters??? SEE that matters to ME, and for him to be able to hunt EVERY day that he can, matters to ME and with his choice of archery weapon matters to ME.......just not to you and your few........and it's sad and NOT good for US as a group.....period.......

The more you few post, the more obvious it becomes that the ONLY reason for not wanting inclusion is for selfish reasons..........that will NOT work toward your advantage.....bet on it


----------



## aceoky

Now FR please let's not discuss what you "think" the data means to you or someone else, let's see some data that shows why the compound is "fine" to be allowed but the crossbow should not be..........


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> It's "funny" then, that Ted Nugent(who was taught by Fred Bear himself how to shoot a bow, ) IS PRO-CROSSBOW then isn't it??
> 
> Not at all, we are talking about Ted after all.
> :darkbeer: ukey:



NOW you're insulting Ted Nugent, another fellow hunter, who's done more for bowhunting and advancing it without question 100 times what you three put together have done.......real class act ..........  

HINT: it would be better for everyone involved, IF you guys would stick to relevent facts and not continue to insult so many fellow hunters.........just my opinion though, I have no hard data or facts to back that up......:darkbeer: :darkbeer: :cocktail:


----------



## Free Range

> IT IS the JOB of the DNRs (or whatever they may be called in differnet states) to provide as much opportunity as the resources can handle and remain in "good shape' and healthy, it IS up to HUNTERS to request changes to be made (at least often that's the case) the DNR would then study this and see IF it's a 'good thing" or NOT.......then make a decision based upon FACTS AND DATA.......AND THAT IS EXACTLY HOW COMPOUNDS BECAME LEAGAL ARCHERY EQUIP......with that being said, which group of HUNTERS is by far the largest............best use your heads here gentlemen.....you're "messing"with the wrong group to continue to insult gun hunters.....I'm starting to get very tired of saying that truth......btw


Another dodge Ace? Is it gun hunters we should listen to or the DNR? 
I’m not messing with anyone, I respect gun hunters, and the ones that want to use a bow, to join bow season, are more then welcome.



> You just may be correct there, how many politicians check the number of hunters before deciding on a bill........IF numbers DON"T matter, I guess you may have a point......OH wait......numbers DO matter! THAT is why it's "good" NOT to mention when something quits growing it begins to "die".....there is more.......but that is "good for now"


First what bill are you talking about, a anti bowhunting bill? Do you think politicians look at a anti bowhunting bill as a separate issue from all hunters? 



> Funny coming from YOU the one who says IF we let crossbows in next it will be "any season, any weapon'.........


Nice dodge, answer the question or skip it. 



> NOT your decision to make who gets to use what during archery season, as more states prove this, and the "sky doesn't fall", perhaps you'll realize all the "whys"???


Who’s decision is it to make the gun hunters, or the DNR, or maybe your’s? 



> I answered that above, IF it's not good enough, perhaps YOU will show us all why MORE ARCHERS is a "bad thing"??? And NOT the "woods will be overrun", hasn't happened anywhere and you can't back that claim up with ANY data, besides bowhunters are supposed to be "elite" according to you guys, certainly "elite" hunters know how to get farther back away from the crowds, gun hunters do it every year!


Nice dodge again, you did not answer anything. Fact over 50% of hunters in archery season in Ohio are using a x-bow. That is proof they are over running the season. Fact, letting the x-bow in archery season takes away our argument of having separate seasons. 
And if you don’t mind get the elite thing right. We think bow hunting is special, and therefore bowhunters are special (at least most of them are) we don’t look down our nose at law abiding ethical hunters no matter the weapon. If you want to insult bow hunters be my guest, I like most bowhunters and will fight for bowseason, just as I will fight for gun season if I need to. 



> NO he IS still of importance as I feel we are all, and that day will come upon all of us(unless we die or are killed first).........so what?
> 
> I find it in bad taste for you to speak in this manner of another hunter , much less a senior hunter , and you have no clue as to what he may have done for all of us during his time here.......


Hey dodge master, answer the question, what happens when he can no longer use a x-bow, should he be allowed to use a computer set up so he can still hunt? It really is an easy question. 
The more you post the more we realize you can’t answer a simple question, *does he deserve to continue hunting when he can no longer get out in the woods? *


----------



## Free Range

> NOW you're insulting Ted Nugent, another fellow hunter, who's done more for bowhunting and advancing it without question 100 times what you three put together have done.......real class act ..........
> 
> HINT: it would be better for everyone involved, IF you guys would stick to relevent facts and not continue to insult so many fellow hunters.........just my opinion though, I have no hard data or facts to back that up......



Me saying “we are talking about Ted” is different from you insulting, Glean St. Charles, Fred Ashbell, Fred Bear, Paul Shafer, Jay Massie, M.R. James, and all the rest of the members of the P&Y club, and the PBS? And all the thousands of members of the hundreds of bowhunting clubs across the country that do not want the x-bow included in archery season? Ace you are a real winner. Ted has done a lot for bowhunting, there is no denying that, but he has also given us a black eye from time to time, So did Howard Hill, there is no denying Howard did more for the sport of bowhunting then just about anybody including Uncle Ted, but he also tied at least one animal to a tree with a chain so he could shoot it on film for his movie. Should that be over looked because of all the good he did?


----------



## aceoky

I'm not dodging anything, again, I'm not interested in any of your "thoughts or opinions" on this ........

I would like for YOU to post some relevent facts and data(again, how many times does this make now), that PROVE why the compound should be allowed in archery seasons, and the crossbow should NOT be.......nothing else holds my interest at this point, thus I have no real desire to answer those "questions"......

.FACTS and DATA on the other hand IS what I'm waiting on.............let's see them, shall we??


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Me saying “we are talking about Ted” is different from you insulting, Glean St. Charles, Fred Ashbell, Fred Bear, Paul Shafer, Jay Massie, M.R. James, and all the rest of the members of the P&Y club, and the PBS?
> 
> Gonna have to call you there, show me where I ever mentioned any of them in a "bad way"............I'll be waiting
> 
> 
> 
> And all the thousands of members of the hundreds of bowhunting clubs across the country that do not want the x-bow included in archery season?
> 
> 
> They're entitled to their opinions no matter how selfish they indeed are
> 
> 
> 
> Ace you are a real winner. Ted has done a lot for bowhunting, there is no denying that, but he has also given us a black eye from time to time, So did Howard Hill, there is no denying Howard did more for the sport of bowhunting then just about anybody including Uncle Ted, but he also tied at least one animal to a tree with a chain so he could shoot it on film for his movie. Should that be over looked because of all the good he did?


WE all make mistakes, so what? No good reason though to put down other hunters so often in my humble opinion.....I have no doubt it doesn't help any of us, though


----------



## Free Range

*Does he deserve to continue hunting when he can no longer use a x-bow? That is the question. *


And facts why a compound should be allowed and not the x-bow? Would you stay on track, I thought it was why more archers are good or bad? Anyhow off in another direction, the compound is hand held, like a bow, is drawn with the muscles of the shooter like a bow, and help under tension by the muscle power of the shooter, like a bow. Fact, Fact , Fact. The x-bow is not always drawn by the muscle power of the shooter, and is never drawn by the muscle power of those that can’t draw a bow. The x-bow is not held under tension by the shooter, and is not hand held like a bow, Fact, Fact, Fact.


----------



## Free Range

> Gonna have to call you there, show me where I ever mentioned any of them in a "bad way"............I'll be waiting


When you call the P&Y club elites and selfish, and snobs, you are calling all the past and present members the same thing. 



> WE all make mistakes, so what? No good reason though to put down other hunters so often in my humble opinion.....I have no doubt it doesn't help any of us, though


Then stop calling those against the x-bow snobs, and selfish. And call Jim when he calls them raciest and all the other stuff he does. Or is it only name calling when it is directed in your direction?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> *Does he deserve to continue hunting when he can no longer use a x-bow? That is the question. *
> 
> 
> And facts why a compound should be allowed and not the x-bow? Would you stay on track, I thought it was why more archers are good or bad?
> 
> Nope the real question has always been the same......besides you are not trying to show me why more archers is a bad thing...
> 
> 
> Anyhow off in another direction, the compound is hand held, like a bow, is drawn with the muscles of the shooter like a bow, and help under tension by the muscle power of the shooter, like a bow. Fact, Fact , Fact.
> 
> Not relevent in the least.....facts and data to support a REASON OR MORE why one should be allowed the other NOT.......are YOU dodging?
> 
> 
> 
> The x-bow is not always drawn by the muscle power of the shooter, and is never drawn by the muscle power of those that can’t draw a bow. The x-bow is not held under tension by the shooter, and is not hand held like a bow, Fact, Fact, Fact.


NOT RELEVENT FACTS, even IF they are facts.....besides I can draw my bow for my 12 yr old, and let him shoot it , so that negates your "FACT" right there! :cocktail: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: 

NO difference, if it's a compound drawn by one and shot by another or a crossbow, nice try but no cigar.....

besides what does that prove why weapons with nearly the same harvest rates(advantage goes to the compound, though slightly) one is allowed then why do YOU say the other should not be?? Simple question, IF you'll stop "dodging" and avoiding it.....either you have it or you don't

Let's see some data that may show any of you have a real reason, for saying ONE is fine the other is NOT

Again that is ALL, I am interested in at this point, you said I had nothing, you were wrong........let's see you come up with some relevent data and facts that support the compound but not the crossbow, guess you can't do that then.......just as I thought all along......while you accuse me of "dodging" that is all you've done when I ask this simple question for over a year........now it's time to either prove it or not.........it's up to you.......

IF you can't(or won't) then I have no reason to continue with you on this.........FACT IF you can not do this, then FACT IS, the crossbow should be allowed as well........:cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> When you call the P&Y club elites and selfish, and snobs, you are calling all the past and present members the same thing.
> 
> They are what they are, my stating the facts of what they are , what they allow and don't have nothing to do with that, YOU mention names and that IS the difference,
> 
> 
> 
> Then stop calling those against the x-bow snobs, and selfish. And call Jim when he calls them raciest and all the other stuff he does. Or is it only name calling when it is directed in your direction?


When I see some data and facts that somewhat at least support your views, we'll discuss that, since I've asked for so many months and all I've heard is "my, mine, " I can only go on what YOU and YOURS admit to......that is judging other's on their own choices of their individual archery weapons(even calling them lazy etc.etc.etc)

IOW stop being selfish snobs and prove that you are not.......should be simple enough?:darkbeer: :cocktail: :wink: 

Otherwise your own words speak against all of you, my pointing it out or not won't change that FACT


----------



## twogun

Free Range said:


> As for little girls and old men using the x-gun. Most of us agree that getting kids involved in hunting and spending time with them is a good thing. What I don’t agree with is when anyone tries to claim the x-bow is the only way, or even the best way. Do you really think teaching a 10 year old that all they have to do is learn how to sight in a x-bow, craw in a blind and pull the trigger is a good thing? What happen to starting from the bottom and working your way up? What happen to learning how to hunt the smaller game animals first, learning woodsmenship, learning the rewards of working for something? Where is this 10 year old to go from here? For most hunters in the USA killing a deer is the highest level of hunting one can strive for. What is next, killing a buck, then a big buck, she should have that done by age 15 don’t you think? Where is the hard work and payoff.



Here is what it is all about. The fact that a 10 year old was lucky enough to be successful early on changes none of it and may infact be key in her continued participation. I know of kids whose parents have taken them hunting the "hard way", sitting for hours in crappy weather, seeing nothing, getting painfully bored, and ending up hating the experience never to try it again. I also know of a member of this site, who at one point in his life was very anti-crossbow, whose son never liked shooting a bow. He just didn't take to it. THe crossbow provided an avenue for that father and son to spend some quality time in the woods together learning about bowhunting.

What about the following does using a crossbow change?



> The simplicity of bowhunting is what attracts many people to the sport. They could shoot deer at longer ranges with a gun and, statistically, bring home more venison per day of hunting, but they prefer the limits that the bow and arrow impose.
> 
> What limits? Well, for one, no matter how powerful your bow, you still have to get almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it. Most deer shot with a bow are within 20 yards of the hunter. And in order for you to get a good shot, the deer, a bundle of acute senses, can't be aware of your presence.
> 
> This requirement brings primitive hunting techniques into play. To keep deer from seeing, smelling or hearing them, archery deer hunters often daub paint on their faces, don camouflage clothes, cover their human scent with animal urine and other natural odors and sit still as sphinxes for hours on end.


and....



> Because of the demands of getting close to the deer, bowhunting requires planning, scouting and enough woods-craft to find deer travel routes and bedding areas. Then the hunter has to plan an ambush that takes into account wind direction and provides cover while providing a clear shot.


Parent and child hunting together, whatever the weapon, is a great thing.



> This archery season, our 50th in the state, *will no doubt provide more challenges, create more wholesome experiences, embed more lifetime memories, bond together more parents and children, husbands, wives and friends and put more venison on dinner tables for people to enjoy.*


The crossbow just provides another avenue for the above to take place. It's a good thing.


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Me saying “we are talking about Ted” is different from you insulting, Glean St. Charles, Fred Ashbell, Fred Bear, Paul Shafer, Jay Massie, M.R. James, and all the rest of the members of the P&Y club, and the PBS? And all the thousands of members of the hundreds of bowhunting clubs across the country that do not want the x-bow included in archery season? Ace you are a real winner. Ted has done a lot for bowhunting, there is no denying that, but he has also given us a black eye from time to time, So did Howard Hill, there is no denying Howard did more for the sport of bowhunting then just about anybody including Uncle Ted, but he also tied at least one animal to a tree with a chain so he could shoot it on film for his movie. Should that be over looked because of all the good he did?



who cares what they think. St Charles has had some comments that I will try to find that shows some serious mental issues with those who don't worship at his temple, Who cares what others want as to me? I ask again

1) how is your hunting hurt by someone who wants to use a crossbow?

2) if you think you are doing it the "REAL WAY" fine-where do you get off telling other people they have to hunt with your bow

3) If xbows become the dominant archery weapon-please tell me why they shouldn't boot people like you out-ie treat you the same way you treat them


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> When you call the P&Y club elites and selfish, and snobs, you are calling all the past and present members the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Then stop calling those against the x-bow snobs, and selfish. And call Jim when he calls them raciest and all the other stuff he does. Or is it only name calling when it is directed in your direction?



why do you lie about what I said? I said those who try to exclude xbows based on the BS I see on these threads have the same mental process as those who claimed it was wrong for blacks to want to have the same rights as whites


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> *Does he deserve to continue hunting when he can no longer use a x-bow? That is the question. *
> 
> 
> And facts why a compound should be allowed and not the x-bow? Would you stay on track, I thought it was why more archers are good or bad? Anyhow off in another direction, the compound is hand held, like a bow, is drawn with the muscles of the shooter like a bow, and help under tension by the muscle power of the shooter, like a bow. Fact, Fact , Fact. The x-bow is not always drawn by the muscle power of the shooter, and is never drawn by the muscle power of those that can’t draw a bow. The x-bow is not held under tension by the shooter, and is not hand held like a bow, Fact, Fact, Fact.



Interesting contradiction in your thinking. I use my muscles to hold a crossbow just like you do with your bow. As I noted, its easier to hold a 65 pound compound at full draw steady then it is standing with a crossbow

you say crossbows are ok for the handicapped-ie those who cannot draw the crossbow with their own muscles but you then whine about those who can draw a crossbow with their own muscles using one. The effort to cock a crossbow without an aid (ie those of us who are not handicapped) and hold it steady is as or more demanding then drawing a 60 pound compound and holding it on target


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> When you call the P&Y club elites and selfish, and snobs, you are calling all the past and present members the same thing.


Why are NOT even 50% of the bowhunters in the US(we'll leave out the international aspect) NOT members?? Is it because of their "open arms" policy or something else??  

It's well known they've bragged about being "elite", I have no problem with them being or saying whatever they like, I don't agree with much they have to say, I have that right, but they ARE what they are......my pointing it out, changes nothing......

MOST "real" bowhunters don't care anything about them either, I couldn't begin to list the posts on so many forums where that FACT has been made oh so clear, wonder why so many who take P&Y bucks don't enter them in the "book"???? 

FACT they are indeed "exclusive" and "elite" and some (many) see them as "snobs" for that.........why does the truth bother you so much??


----------



## doctariAFC

:moviecorn :moviecorn :moviecorn


----------



## Free Range

> Why are NOT even 50% of the bowhunters in the US(we'll leave out the international aspect) NOT members?? Is it because of their "open arms" policy or something else??


Ace why are only about 20%, if that, of all hunters in the USA members of any organization? 



> It's well known they've bragged about being "elite", I have no problem with them being or saying whatever they like, I don't agree with much they have to say, I have that right, but they ARE what they are......my pointing it out, changes nothing......


I can respect that, so why is it any different for me to say, “we are talking about Ted” after all he is what he is, and me pointing that out is different then you,,,how?



> MOST "real" bowhunters don't care anything about them either, I couldn't begin to list the posts on so many forums where that FACT has been made oh so clear, wonder why so many who take P&Y bucks don't enter them in the "book"????


Because just maybe they are like me, they don’t need their name in a book. It doesn’t mean they don’t care anything about them. And as I have pointed out to you before the poll here at AT suggest you are dead wrong. 



> FACT they are indeed "exclusive" and "elite" and some (many) see them as "snobs" for that.........why does the truth bother you so much??


Really it doesn’t bother me that much at all. What does bother me, is your attitude of being somehow above reproach in the name calling arena. I bring up Ted as being Ted, you get all excited that I’m insulting good ole Uncle Ted, I point out how you are just as guilty, and all of a sudden it’s just saying the truth, when you insult someone. Funny how that works.


----------



## TXWhackMaster

Free Range said:


> So did Howard Hill, there is no denying Howard did more for the sport of bowhunting then just about anybody including Uncle Ted, but he also tied at least one animal to a tree with a chain so he could shoot it on film for his movie. Should that be over looked because of all the good he did?


Tying an animal to a tree and participating in the kill is much more honest that going to the store and buying a pack of bacon, hot dogs or steaks. Whats "fair chase" or "free range" about that? If you've done this and demonize staged kills, pen hunts, or high fences, then you are a hypocrite.

I don't need your help with how to advance my child in the field but thanks anyway. It is typical of liberal elitists to always know a better way. I didn't ask alternate suggestions. I simply stated something that would be enjoyable to me.

You guys consider any type of hunting other than your perferred method inferior. Criticise hunting legends and icons. Present hypotheses and statistics for the sole purpose of excluding hunters and hunting methods. I have one question. Who's side are you on? Brady? PETA?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Ace why are only about 20%, if that, of all hunters in the USA members of any organization?
> 
> Maybe they are too "elite" and "exclusive" for most hunters???
> 
> 
> 
> I can respect that, so why is it any different for me to say, “we are talking about Ted” after all he is what he is, and me pointing that out is different then you,,,how?
> 
> I point out those who wish to exclude, and "leave it at that YOU however "put hunters down" because and only because they are NOT elite, that is the difference IMHO
> 
> 
> 
> Because just maybe they are like me, they don’t need their name in a book. It doesn’t mean they don’t care anything about them. And as I have pointed out to you before the poll here at AT suggest you are dead wrong.
> 
> So NOW the majority of ALL bowhunters in the US are members here?? C'mon, and again IF that poll were to take place today, do you know the results may not be different, people may have figured out some things since the last poll...stranger things have happened....
> 
> 
> 
> Really it doesn’t bother me that much at all. What does bother me, is your attitude of being somehow above reproach in the name calling arena. I bring up Ted as being Ted, you get all excited that I’m insulting good ole Uncle Ted, I point out how you are just as guilty, and all of a sudden it’s just saying the truth, when you insult someone. Funny how that works.


Again, I point out those who "think" they are "better" or "entitiled" etc and make THAT the issue, Just as *I* would NOT have told the Howard Hill story, not because I don't know about such things they do NOT help OUR image at all, THAT is the difference, IF you can't see it it's only because you're not looking.....

Telling the truth that P&Y are "exclusive" and consider themselves "elite" and wish to "exclude" other hunters from archery season IS different than this other "stuff" (to be polite).......... P&Y WISH TO EXCLUDE CROSSBOW HUNTERS Because and only because of their CHOICE of archery weapons and in fact are working to do so......anyone can see that is not good for any of us, while our numbers have been dropping so fast.....IF they look;

So to answer your question when *I* point it out, it's not to insult, it's to make a point, some will "trash" other hunters (call them "lazy" for example) just "because" 

*I* feel the difference is more than obvious 

Now, if you wish to continue, let's see YOUR facts and data on the reasons why a compound should be allowed and a crossbow should NOT be.....otherwise, I don't expect to be concerned with your opinions any longer.......either you have them or you don't you said you did, we are all waiting to see them...............still

Instead of backing up what you claim, you post this "drivel"(imho), and ask silly questions about a senior hunter while you refuse to show us the data you say you have......not gonna work, I've already told you I'm not one bit interested in your opinions of who should or should not hunt in archery season, I am however interested in these "facts and data" that support your views......so let's see them.......as long as you don't show them, I'm not planning to respond to your "wisdom" or "whatever" it is......Just the facts........and data.......that's all I now care about, I have shown some of mine........time for you to "step up" with yours......:cocktail: 


Great post TXWhackMaster again!

I am working and hoping that soon that will be a reality for not only you but many more parents and children soon .....(also women, youth, and senior hunters, together or alone(where legal obvioulsy)


----------



## aceoky

twogun said:


> Here is what it is all about. The fact that a 10 year old was lucky enough to be successful early on changes none of it and may infact be key in her continued participation. I know of kids whose parents have taken them hunting the "hard way", sitting for hours in crappy weather, seeing nothing, getting painfully bored, and ending up hating the experience never to try it again. I also know of a member of this site, who at one point in his life was very anti-crossbow, whose son never liked shooting a bow. He just didn't take to it. THe crossbow provided an avenue for that father and son to spend some quality time in the woods together learning about bowhunting.
> 
> What about the following does using a crossbow change?
> 
> 
> 
> and....
> 
> 
> 
> Parent and child hunting together, whatever the weapon, is a great thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The crossbow just provides another avenue for the above to take place. It's a good thing.


THAT IS a great post! IF only we all (hunters) could see these facts that clearly! Thanks!


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> We already have no damage to the herd, *in fact we need more hunters to kill more deer in many states,* and the x-bow is not increasing hunter numbers.
> 
> Didn't YOU ask why more archers is a "good thing"???? That's a good one right there, don't care who you are!! :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer:
> 
> Oh yeah, I have proven that they DO in FACT increase our numbers
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try Ace, more opportunity (real opportunity) for bow hunters, would be longer season and or higher bag limits. Giving a bow hunter a different weapon and calling that more opportunity is a bogus argument.
> 
> My DATA , PROVES otherwise...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allowing more to hunt is far from it actually having that affect, for it to be a benefit it must actually get more to hunt, and it hasn’t.
> 
> Again the DATA proves you have NO idea of what you speak about......Nice claim but WHERE is YOUR data to confirm that ? WE have all seen mine btw
> 
> 
> Again, we are not excluding hunters, just weapon types,


Not true! 

As TXWhackMaster posted that IS exaclty what you're doing, even after seeing the truth, you didn't change that "story".......

YOU are TRYING to exclude many hunters (in particular women, youth and senior hunters) many of these who can't hunt the archery season with another type of bow, facts have PROVEN they will, IF given the chance.....

So by TRYING to exclude the crossbow you are in fact excluding many hunters and we need them as you said above!!:cocktail:


----------



## TXWhackMaster

Free Range said:


> What is next, killing a buck, then a big buck, she should have that done by age 15 don’t you think? Where is the hard work and payoff. QUOTE]
> 
> Are you really suggesting that if a skinny 12 year old girl get into the game field undetected, sits in a tree stand quietly undetected, and controls her anxiety, adrenolene, fear and excitement long enough to pull the trigger on a crossbow that it wasn't earned or "hard work"? Have you ever hunted whitetails before? It won't make you less of a man if she kills one before you do.


----------



## Jim C

TXWhackMaster said:


> Free Range said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is next, killing a buck, then a big buck, she should have that done by age 15 don’t you think? Where is the hard work and payoff. QUOTE]
> 
> Are you really suggesting that if a skinny 12 year old girl get into the game field undetected, sits in a tree stand quietly undetected, and controls her anxiety, adrenolene, fear and excitement long enough to pull the trigger on a crossbow that it wasn't earned or "hard work"? Have you ever hunted whitetails before? It won't make you less of a man if she kills one before you do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he's worried she might shoot HIS BUCK and he wants to keep her out as long as possible
> 
> there is NOTHING but greed that motivates this side
Click to expand...


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Originally Posted by oldbhtrnewequip
post 607...when you get the time.

Thanks, 



thesource said:


> I'm not sure what you are looking for, here.
> 
> You didn't ask any questions.
> 
> I think your anaology of "limbo" is pretty accurate, if that's what you are looking for. You need to get under the bar .... and farther is better.


You don't have to speak for pope and young. I'm not asking you to. Their rules speak for themselves. Who would you recommend that I go to if I can't get the history or rules of fair chase directly from pope and young? I would much rather get the straight scoop from pope and young then get misinterpretations from various folks that should or shouldn't be speaking for pope and young? 

If the previous rules are no longer important, and all that is important is what we are doing today, then would it be correct to assume that heritage/tradition are not important, and all that matters is what we're doing in the here and now?

IF pope and young wants to pull the heritage/tradition card AND use its preeminence as THE top bowhunting to influence state determined rules (of fair chase), should its history be an open book?

So you'd advocate that the rules should periodically be reviewed and changed if necesssary/appropriate. Would you also advocate that the history of rule changing be open for review?


----------



## TXWhackMaster

Jim C said:


> he's worried she might shoot HIS BUCK and he wants to keep her out as long as possible
> 
> there is NOTHING but greed that motivates this side


No, I think it's more than that. They use the difficulty of primitive archery as an excuse for never killing anything. It helps justify failure in the quest when in reality they don't want to actually kill an animal and they don't want anyone else to either. Does this clear up why they want to divide hunters and limit or exclude as many as possible. The modus operendi of the "antis" is to eliminate one hunter and one method at a time, strategically restricting and eroding participation and rights while aiding us in canibilizing ourselves. How sad. These are either niave souls or very dedicated "antis" supporters. The narrow responses suggest a serious lack of hunting experience backed by a plethora of "anti-hunting" propaganda and manufactured statistics with little relevence. Or.....It could be greed.


----------



## Tim4Trout

doctariAFC said:


> :moviecorn :moviecorn :moviecorn


This thread is so long, you could plant seeds in the garden and have time to grow your own popcorn.

"Fair chase is considered as violated when your choice of method has the potential to increase your odds of success a miniscule amount "


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> What about the following does using a crossbow change?
> _The simplicity of bowhunting is what attracts many people to the sport. They could shoot deer at longer ranges with a gun and, statistically, bring home more venison per day of hunting, but they prefer the limits that the bow and arrow impose.
> 
> What limits? Well, for one, no matter how powerful your bow, you still have to get almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it. Most deer shot with a bow are within 20 yards of the hunter. And in order for you to get a good shot, the deer, a bundle of acute senses, can't be aware of your presence.
> 
> This requirement brings primitive hunting techniques into play. To keep deer from seeing, smelling or hearing them, archery deer hunters often daub paint on their faces, don camouflage clothes, cover their human scent with animal urine and other natural odors and sit still as sphinxes for hours on end. _
> 
> and....
> 
> _Because of the demands of getting close to the deer, bowhunting requires planning, scouting and enough woods-craft to find deer travel routes and bedding areas. Then the hunter has to plan an ambush that takes into account wind direction and provides cover while providing a clear shot. _



What does it change? Everything. Effective range would be extended with a crossbow for typical shooters (not Jim's top competitor's, maybe - but that is a small minority of arrow flingers).

Not having to draw in the presence gives improper and unfair advantage (violates fair chase) because a deer is "a bundle of acute senses". Not having to draw in the presence improves your chances of won't "be aware of your presence."

Bowhunters may sit "sit still as sphinxes for hours on end," but only a crossbow hunter may sit still as a sphinx and still get the shot off. A bowhunter MUST move in the presence of a deer to draw his bow, significantly increasing the chancesf of a deer "seeing or hearing them."

Thw two point release of any real bow makes accuracy tougher than the ppoint and shoot nature of your crossbow, making the requirement that you get "almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it" paramount.

The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting thrilling.

The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.



Thanks for asking, twogun.


----------



## Jim C

TXWhackMaster said:


> No, I think it's more than that. They use the difficulty of primitive archery as an excuse for never killing anything. It helps justify failure in the quest when in reality they don't want to actually kill an animal and they don't want anyone else to either. Does this clear up why they want to divide hunters and limit or exclude as many as possible. The modus operendi of the "antis" is to eliminate one hunter and one method at a time, strategically restricting and eroding participation and rights while aiding us in canibilizing ourselves. How sad. These are either niave souls or very dedicated "antis" supporters. The narrow responses suggest a serious lack of hunting experience backed by a plethora of "anti-hunting" propaganda and manufactured statistics with little relevence. Or.....It could be greed.



I can accept this theory as true in many cases. I also think some of them do like to kill animals but are worried others might get the buck they want. I also think-in at least one documented case on this board-the poster's entire sense of self worth revolves around his internally perceived sense of importance as a bowhunter and the introduction of crossbows into his "season" will undermine-internally-his sense of value. Xbows are, therefore, an attack on his very psyche.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> What does it change? Everything. Effective range would be extended with a crossbow for typical shooters (not Jim's top competitor's, maybe - but that is a small minority of arrow flingers)..


bull poop. the average harvest range is essentially the same for compound and crossbow. excalibur's site had a long running thread on deer taken and I think the average was 20 or so yards. The only person bragging about shots past 40 yards was the idiot sockpuppet captain happy (TALIS) who got banned here for using several personas to post during a suspension and who was an anti crossbow troll-no one believed his bs claims.



thesource said:


> Not having to draw in the presence gives improper and unfair advantage (violates fair chase) because a deer is "a bundle of acute senses". Not having to draw in the presence improves your chances of won't "be aware of your presence."


.

More BS that you cannot even come close to proving. Aiming a crossbow requires as much detectable movement and with high tree stands this non existent advantage is even less relevant. I tire of you and your ilk making this claim and not backing it up. You throw it out as if its been proven true yet I -having hunted with both bows-think you are lying. TO say it violates FAIR CHASE while at the same time saying you have no problem with a seperate xbow season is hypocritical-as if the deer are less "acute" in one season prior to guns than another is beyond moronic



thesource said:


> Bowhunters may sit "sit still as sphinxes for hours on end," but only a crossbow hunter may sit still as a sphinx and still get the shot off. A bowhunter MUST move in the presence of a deer to draw his bow, significantly increasing the chancesf of a deer "seeing or hearing them."


more nonsense from someone ignorant of xbow hunting. A crossbow hunter must MOVE in the presence of game to aim the bow at the game



thesource said:


> Thw two point release of any real bow makes accuracy tougher than the ppoint and shoot nature of your crossbow, making the requirement that you get "almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it" paramount.
> 
> The fact that you must draw a bow, risking visual and aural detection, and make a correct shot using the archery skills of drawing, holding, anchoring, aiming and releasing at very close range and under extreme pressure is what makes bowhunting thrilling.
> 
> The fact that you do not need to do these things with a crossbow is why they do not belong in bowseason.


You have proven again you have no clue what you talk about and yet you spew this drivel. Your blather about making the shot shows you really have no concept of archery and telling me what makes bowhunting thrilling is a laugh. You find any perceive differences-no matter how microscopic and blow them up to oceans of difference while ignoring the vast similarities between hunting with the two kinds of bows in a dishonest and laughably ignorant attempt to justify your psychological issues with others using a bow that you find threatening to your own standing


----------



## aceoky

Tim4Trout said:


> This thread is so long, you could plant seeds in the garden and have time to grow your own popcorn.
> 
> "Fair chase is considered as violated when your choice of method has the potential to increase your odds of success a miniscule amount "


Well then, that being the case, I have provided the data that proves the the compound has a very slight advantage in hunting success rates! Since the crossbow has a smaller success rate in the field then there is simply NO good reason to say it violated "fair chase" , unless, one is willing to admit the compound does it more so!

The fact the "other side" has not shown any data that proves otherwise, OR why a compound is "OK" and a crossbow shouldn't be allowed, proves the whole thing imho


----------



## doctariAFC

Tim4Trout said:


> This thread is so long, you could plant seeds in the garden and have time to grow your own popcorn.
> 
> "Fair chase is considered as violated when your choice of method has the potential to increase your odds of success a miniscule amount "


No doubt. And it seems to be a circular thread. 19 pages, with every three pages repeating itself. :cofused3:

I struggle to see how using a crossbow violates any fair chase concepts whatsoever. Crossbows do not provide any tangible advantages over any implement. Advantages from an implement are situational, you know, depends upon the terrain, where your stand is, the habitat you are hunting, etc. For instance, a recurve gives you an advantage over a compound or crossbow when on the ground still hunting, as you can get to draw and fire your arrow far quicker with a recurve than a compound or crossbow. Up in the tree, the compound may give you an advantage over recurves and crossbows, as you can come to draw and take your time in aiming, plus, if you miss, you have the ease of nocking and drawing another arrow, whereas the crossbow that could pose some challenges getting that device to full draw and loaded in the limited space you have on the platform. The crossbow may give you an advantage over the recurve and compound when hunting in a ground blind. You may have a rest set up, and the horizontal limbs allow you to use the crossbow without the worry of catching the top or bottom limb of your bow on the blind itself.

But no implement ever invented will harvest any animal on its own, and no implement suddenly makes a hunter a btter hunter. Just like no gun on the planet has ever killed anyone on its own. Someone has to load it, point it and fire it. The hunter must do the work to become confident and prficient with the implement of choice, period. Then you have the hunting skills aspect as well. A crossbow in your hands is not also a deer magnet, magically drawing them to your stand because a 10-Point crossbow actually draws in 10-Point Bucks. Come on! You still gotta hunt them, and your skills as a hunter do not suddenly improve because you decide to use a crossbow.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> It's "funny" then, that Ted Nugent(who was taught by Fred Bear himself how to shoot a bow, ) IS PRO-CROSSBOW then isn't it??
> 
> Not at all, we are talking about Ted after all.
> :darkbeer: ukey:


The same Ted Nugent who runs the Kamp for Kids, devotes hours upon hours to visiting schools teaching the youth(read the future) about hunting and why it's good, who teaches them that drugs are bad outdoors is good???

That hunting is natural and good and uses a renewable resource........etc.etc.etc.

Yeah, I can see why you'd view him in that "light"... NOT

You speak of "black eyes", when there was so many positive things you could have said (see above for only a very few of the "good things" Uncle Ted has done for us all)................I rest my case on what the difference is/are between my posting and some others as far as "insults" go, I say P&Y are "elite" so do they btw........you talk about black eyes, how someone else's child should/shouldn't hunt, how "x-guns" are "bad for bowhunting"(but can't prove why) , how other hunters should meet YOUR requirements to hunt YOU season((but can't prove why)............I say, share, the more the merrier.......need I go on? Didn't think so......

One post you say we need more hunters to kill more deer in several states right away you then ask, WHY is "more archers a good thing"???


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> and no implement suddenly makes a hunter a better hunter.


Define better - more likely to kill a deer? If so, I believe you are wrong.

It is OBVIOUS that the choice of implement can make a hunter more successful.

Increases in effective range (the distance that you can maintain adequate accuracy) are absolutely correlatable to higher success.

For example, how many times have you found yourself holding a bow ans thinking "dang, if I only had a shotgun!" as a bruiser buck mosied along 10 yards out of your ethical bowrange?

Having that shotgun wouldn't make you a better hunter, but it would have made you a successful hunter, and that is what we're talking about.

Different implements enable additional options at additional ranges, and that means they are advantaged.

To say otherwise is blindly ignoring that what these implements would do is the opposite of what you state. They reward less skilled hunters, those who were not capable of closing the distance or closing the deal with a bow.

They provide ADVANTAGE. 

I don't mind you having a different opinion about whether or not that advantage is unfair or improper.

I do mind you pretending (spinning) that different weapons do not offer advantage.


----------



## aceoky

The "problem" with that analogy IS the crossbow hunter would still say the same thing!


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Define better - more likely to kill a deer? If so, I believe you are wrong.
> 
> It is OBVIOUS that the choice of implement can make a hunter more successful
> 
> Increases in effective range (the distance that you can maintain adequate accuracy) are absolutely correlatable to higher success


Is this coming from a guy who has ZERO xbow hunting knowledge? I thought so-sorry SOurce, your claim of greater range is BS and we all know it




thesource said:


> For example, how many times have you found yourself holding a bow ans thinking "dang, if I only had a shotgun!" as a bruiser buck mosied along 10 yards out of your ethical bowrange?
> 
> Having that shotgun wouldn't make you a better hunter, but it would have made you a successful hunter, and that is what we're talking about.
> 
> Different implements enable additional options at additional ranges, and that means they are advantaged.
> 
> To say otherwise is blindly ignoring that what these implements would do is the opposite of what you state. They reward less skilled hunters, those who were not capable of closing the distance or closing the deal with a bow.
> 
> They provide ADVANTAGE.


 true when talking about guns, not true when dealing with compound vs cross bows



thesource said:


> I don't mind you having a different opinion about whether or not that advantage is unfair or improper.
> 
> I do mind you pretending (spinning) that different weapons do not offer advantage.


And what I mind is someone completely ignorant of xbows who ignores the objective reality proven again and again and again in the controlled environments of 3D archery that prove you are completely full of it in terms of range

go ahead source-whine that 3D has no correlation 

go ahead and find objective proof that crossbows have greater range in the hunting field

You cannot and those of us who understand the subject know that


----------



## Free Range

You are right about one thing, it is beyond silly to even attempt to debate with you. You start off in one direction then do a 180 when someone is getting close to showing you for what you are. You posted 4 pages of worthless information, when I tried to answer them one at a time you start jumping all over trying to confuse and evade. If you don’t want to debate then that is fine, but please stop with the, how great you are, stuff, because you have shown nothing. And when I show you for the opinion-ator you are you ignore that line of questioning and start off in another tangent. 
If you want to ignore such a basic question as “should he be allowed to hunt” which by the way is directly related to your own ranting and is a obvious question to further explore the line of thinking you started. Well, again you are showing you have no interest in facts or in coming to a conclusion as to the debate at hand. 

And as for wackedmaster it’s your anything goes attitude that is more harmful to hunting then this. You and Ace and Jim are the ones driving a wedge between hunters. It’s the x-bow that started this division, not those that want to keep bow hunting, BOW hunting. If all you have is name calling and insults then we have already won. It is a coward that links other hunters with PETA and Brady, instead of debates the real issue. 

Ace anytime you are ready to continue the exploration of your post let me know, otherwise we will assume you could not handle the real questions and have to resort to these diversions.


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> You are right about one thing, it is beyond silly to even attempt to debate with you. You start off in one direction then do a 180 when someone is getting close to showing you for what you are. You posted 4 pages of worthless information, when I tried to answer them one at a time you start jumping all over trying to confuse and evade. If you don’t want to debate then that is fine, but please stop with the, how great you are, stuff, because you have shown nothing. And when I show you for the opinion-ator you are you ignore that line of questioning and start off in another tangent.
> If you want to ignore such a basic question as “should he be allowed to hunt” which by the way is directly related to your own ranting and is a obvious question to further explore the line of thinking you started. Well, again you are showing you have no interest in facts or in coming to a conclusion as to the debate at hand.
> 
> And as for wackedmaster it’s your anything goes attitude that is more harmful to hunting then this. You and Ace and Jim are the ones driving a wedge between hunters. It’s the x-bow that started this division, not those that want to keep bow hunting, BOW hunting. If all you have is name calling and insults then we have already won. It is a coward that links other hunters with PETA and Brady, instead of debates the real issue.
> 
> Ace anytime you are ready to continue the exploration of your post let me know, otherwise we will assume you could not handle the real questions and have to resort to these diversions.



this is a funny rant.

Xbows no more caused the division than blacks caused the klan by asking for the same rights

its your side that calls people lazy or cheaters and then acts as if you are entitled to something based on what kind of bow you use

its your side that LIES and has been caught lying-the PBS claims about novices with crossbows outshooting pro level compound archers is such BS we have to assume that the entire organization is corrupt with dishonesty


----------



## aceoky

Free Range, I told you(then) I'm not interested in you *opinion* on the data posted, it's from experts in their field who not only ARE qualified to state the facts, it's their JOB to do so! As to who is doing 180 degrees, go back and read, YOU asked me (according to you 6 times I think) to post my facts, I kept saying you'd do this and not provide any relevent data, but would however try to give us your opinion of what the actual data and facts mean to YOU......and I said, I was not interested.........I posted mine then asked and have kept doing the same....

YOU show me some actual, factual data that proves why compounds should be allowed, and crossbows shouldn't.....

I've shown(proven) 9,300 ADDITIONAL ARCHERS directly tied to the inclusion of the crossbow, we've shown the "other archers" were NOT affected/effected one bit......

THAT is what these threads are all about, not my opinion of what some senior hunter should or shouldn't do, or be allowed/disallowed to when he's "bedridden", 

I find the whole concept and question in poor taste and 100% off topic.......and using my refusing to answer it doesn't change one thing, it's your side who keeps "weaving and bobbing" around the issues.....and who have yet to provide any facts or data to support your views.....

So anytime YOU are ready to stop avoiding what you can't provide, simply admit that, and YOU can stop your "silly" diversions, and post something relevent that would prove your views........or "can you not handle the real questions"??

I did all I could to make it very clear, I'm not intersted in debating over facts, nor what they "mean" to you.....

I've posted them,( real facts and data) they stand, if you can't find the data that disproves them, your loss, not ours.....simple really.....

I've shown your repeated asking me for the facts, I finally did so, knowing what you really wanted to do was "inform us" of why they don't mean what they actually do mean.....I'm not "going there", again, PROVE them in error, IF you can, but do so not with your "wisdom" and "thoughts" and "opinions" with some real facts and hard data......it's only fair, YOU asked me for it, I provided it........now (again) it's "your turn" to do the same.........


----------



## TXWhackMaster

Free Range said:


> And as for wackedmaster it’s your anything goes attitude that is more harmful to hunting then this.


Free Rage, I do have not just an attitude but a passion for inclusion in regards to hunting. The more people that participate in each season, the more people that will help defend and preserve each season. I crave maximum "wild time" and encourage others to also. This is not detrimental but vital to our future. [/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]You and Ace and Jim are the ones driving a wedge between hunters. It’s the x-bow that started this division, not those that want to keep bow hunting, BOW hunting. [/QUOTE]
I've hunted game with a bow, rifle, pistol and shot gun. That's right, I have been one of those "lazy=gun hunters". As a son of a modest tobacco farmer, if my brothers and I didn't kill a deer, we didn't eat meat with our beans and 'taters. From the age of 11, this lazy gun hunter and his brothers, on opening day of deer season, grabbed a 30/30 and hunted, went to school and then worked the tobacco fields. No other sports or activities were to interfer. My word would be sacrifice not lazy. Then it was nessecity, now it's fun. I invite the bow hunter, crossbow hunter, trad hunter, gun hunter, trapper, fisher, trophy hunter, varmint hunt, meat hunter, falconeer, high fence hunter, low fence hunter, no fence hunter into the woods with me. Bring your iron sights, peep sights, red dot sights, no sights, high power scope, binoculars, range finders and sit a ground blind over a food plot, sit a tree stand over bait, stalk the praries and deserts, use your scents, rattles, grunts, camo and cover scent. Be safe, obey the law, get a good clean humane kill and have fun.
[/QUOTE]If all you have is name calling and insults then we have already won. It is a coward that links other hunters with PETA and Brady, instead of debates the real issue. [/QUOTE]
Restricted Range, I didn't call you any names. You're the one that first resorted to name calling(whackedmaster). It was cute though. I'm not tender. How about you?
If you're goal is one of hunting inclusion, tolerance and defense of means and methods other than yours, then you're "pro-hunting". If you spend your time defending the exclusion of hunters(be it few or many) and alternate, safe means, then you are most certainly doing the work of the "antis".


----------



## Free Range

Ace, if you can’t handle it then stay out of the fire. You provide opinion after opinion, about what some group of numbers mean. when we ask to explore the numbers, and your opinion, you cry foul. Get real Ace, if your numbers and your opinion are that solid then they can stand scrutiny if not then they are bogus numbers. 

And you brought up when someone should or should not be allowed to hunt. If you can’t back up your petty name calling then don’t start with it. I say a persons time has come to stop bow hunting when they can no longer use a bow, you say it’s when they can no longer use a x-bow. What I’m asking is why? Why is your OPINION as to when they should stop using a bow more valid then mine? Answer this and I will gladly move on to the next set of opinions you posted and show then for the bogus information they are. 



> I find the whole concept and question in poor taste and 100% off topic.......


If it is off topic then why did you bring it up? 



> and using my refusing to answer it doesn't change one thing, it's your side who keeps "weaving and bobbing" around the issues.....and who have yet to provide any facts or data to support your views.....


Your refusing to answer is dodging the real issue. Weave and bob? No I don’t think so, I have taken your post and started at the top and am working down. We got hung up here because you will not respond to the question asked, the question that was brought up by your, better then thou stance about who should and should not be allowed to hunt in archery season. 

And as for facts I have, you just refuse to acknowledge them. They are my opinions of your numbers, and the numbers I have posted. But because they are my opinions instead of your opinion they don’t matter, right? 

Step up to the plate and stay on track or continue with you r dodging tactics.


----------



## Free Range

TX this is your first post, directed at me, no less, I will just quote the part about PETA and Brady.



> You guys consider any type of hunting other than your perferred method inferior. Criticise hunting legends and icons. Present hypotheses and statistics for the sole purpose of excluding hunters and hunting methods. I have one question. Who's side are you on? Brady? PETA?


Now in my book that is an insult, anyway you look at it. 

Now if you want to discuss anything I will gladly accommodate you, but for your first post to come out and try this kind of BS is unacceptable, in my book. 

Now I don’t agree with your position on inclusion, but can at least respect that you think all hunters should hunt with what they want to, any time they want, during one long season. At least you are not hypocritical in excluding some but not others. And just so you know, I don’t think gun hunters are lazy, I do have to wonder about those people that want to hunt during bow season, and could pull a bow, but won’t unless they can have a x-bow, now don’t that sound strange to you? 

Wack’em and stack’em right? As long as you are outdoors, and killing something it’s all good?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Ace, if you can’t handle it then stay out of the fire. You provide opinion after opinion, about what some group of numbers mean. when we ask to explore the numbers, and your opinion, you cry foul. Get real Ace, if *your numbers *and your opinion are that solid then they can stand scrutiny if not then they are bogus numbers.
> 
> First mistake, they are not *my numbers* I work for nieither GA or VA, thought you knew that.....IF they are interested in YOUR "breakdown" they may let you know, I however am not
> 
> And you brought up when someone should or should not be allowed to still hunt. If you can’t back up you petty name calling then don’t start with it. I say a persons time has come to stop bow hunting when they can no longer use a bow, you say it’s when they can no longer use a x-bow. What I’m asking is why? Why is your OPINION as to when they should stop using a bow more valid then mine? Answer this and I will gladly move on to the next set of opinions you posted and show then for the bogus information they are.
> 
> I'm not willing to discuss anyone's opinions mine nor yours, the FACTS AND DATA are "it"......NOT hard to understand.....now is it? I've shown some of mine, let's see your data, and actual facts NOT your "view" of what the experts have said......they KNOW thier jobs, and have held them long enough to prove that.......which is "good enough" for most rational "thinking folks" thus I accept their stats as most do
> 
> 
> 
> If it is off topic then why did you bring it up?
> 
> I didn't NOT once did I say whether or not he should or shouldn't YOU have asked several time, you brought it up, and it's staying "up in the air" as far as I'm concerned......now let's see your facts and data that prove and support your views on why the compound should be allowed and the crossbow shouldn't be.....
> 
> 
> 
> Your refusing to answer is dodging the real issue. Weave and bob? No I don’t think so, I have taken your post and started at the top and am working down. We got hung up here because you will not respond to the question asked, the question that was brought up by your, better then thou stance about who should and should not be allowed to hunt in archery season.
> 
> It's obvious that you are trying to avoid the real question and hoping to change the subject, "no sale" let's see your data and facts that support what you keep claiming???
> 
> And as for *facts I have*, you just refuse to acknowledge them. They are *my opinions of your numbers*, and the numbers I have posted. But because they are my opinions instead of your opinion they don’t matter, right?
> 
> Which is it??....You finally got it right the second time they are your opinions, not what I provided, nor what was asked of you
> 
> 
> 
> Step up to the plate and stay on track or continue with you r dodging tactics.


Time for you to "step up".......I have no reason to dodge, my facts and data are presented and speak for themselves(regardless of your wanting to "interpret them").......where are yours??? THAT is the question.......


----------



## aceoky

FR; I find it very strange that you expect anyone to take (as you put it) "my opinions of your numbers, " over the Senior Wildlife Biologist from Georgia!!!! :darkbeer: :cocktail: 

THAT sums it up , though, I provide relevent facts and data to support them, and in return get 'your opinion" of their numbers(not my numbers).........doesn't sound quite fair to me....... 

You wish to ask a "silly" question, rather than find the data to support your views and claims, and would rather *try* to change the subject and focus toward me, won't work.......I'm only waiting on your facts and data(NOT opinions)


----------



## Free Range

> First mistake, they are not *my numbers* I work for nieither GA or VA, thought you knew that.....IF they are interested in YOUR "breakdown" they may let you know, I however am not


Your mistake, if you are going to post something take ownership of it, do you really think, I think that highly of you, that I would think you compiled those numbers? 



> Time for you to "step up".......I have no reason to dodge, my facts and data are presented and speak for themselves(regardless of your wanting to "interpret them").......where are yours??? THAT is the question.......


If you have no reason to dodge then answer the question, you are the one dodging here.



> It's "out of line" because you TRIED to take his importance away by stating (at least in some way) that he was only getting older what about when he could no longer hunt, newsflash, WE will all be there one day....(some sooner than others) I would like to THINK WE all matter.........rather than saying in a few years he can't hunt......so "what then" that is NOT relevent NOR in good taste imho........guess YOU don't have a problem, so long as it fits your "agenda"...........sad but to "each their own" I suppose


If you didn’t want to get caught in your stance on when someone should and should not hang it up you should not have said I was out of line, as if you are in line by inferring they should hang it up when the x-bow is to hard. If you want to keep this on track, then keep yourself on track. Don’t assume your line in the sand is any more relevant then mine. Now you can answer this question and we can move on or you can keep dancing around hoping no one will see you stepped in it.


----------



## Free Range

> FR; I find it very strange that you expect anyone to take (as you put it) "my opinions of your numbers, " over the Senior Wildlife Biologist from Georgia!!!!


Sorry but what is strange is I haven’t even gotten that far yet, so what the heck are you talking about? So far I have only touched on your opinions, and the post by unknown people with out links or contact information. When I get to the GA data and what the Senior Biologist thinks about them I will be sure to quote him, and if I have contradictory information from another biologist I will make sure they are quoted too. So far, because you refuse to answer for your own opinions and refuse to answer simple questions, we haven’t even got as far as any real data.


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> . Now you can answer this question and we can move on or you can keep dancing around hoping no one will see you stepped in it.



why should anyone answer an irrelevant question when the anti crossbow apartheid advocates can never answer the real questions

1) how are they hurt by what type of bow another hunter chooses to use

2) why does the anti xbow organizations have to lie about crossbows

3) why can't the anti xbow forces come up with proof to justify their claims crossbows are unfair

4) why was it OK for compounds to demand and get equal billing in archery season but its wrong for crossbows to do the same

5) why do the more loony ARC posters pretend xbows are not bows


----------



## aceoky

As JimC has said there is no reason, and as I've stated several times I refuse to do so, move on or "stay stuck" there, doesn't matter, I stated, I'd lost the link info, and therefore, fine to call it opinion......even though the post spoke of pages with young hunters and their crossbow harvests, even thought it was shown an elderly man still able to archery hunt due to the crossbow and even though it shows that he started with a crossbow and changed to another bow later on.......

Besides all of that, there is plenty of relevent factual data to "dwell on", but again, your opinions of that are not relevent, what I want; ALL I'm interested in is YOUR data.....which proves why a crossbow should not be allowed since the compound is allowed in archery season, as you continue to claim.......opinions while "nice" and somewhat useful at times, do not belong in a disscussion about facts and data, they are seperate issues, and should be treated as such.....

IF you are going to insist to "dwell" on a question by now you know I am not going to answer, then one must assume that you have nothing, and while you accuse me of "dodging", even with my facts and data posted, and I keep asking for some from you, all I get is this "run around", accuse all you like, won't change anything either you have them or you don't.........let's see them, and asking for the answer to a question not many care about save yourself.........

HOW is the crossbow not "FC" and the compound is; not opinions........some real facts and data to support your side's continued claims......I've shown(with real facts and data) they have a lower success rate, that they do in fact retain and recruit hunters with no ill affects/effects on the resources.........thus they belong.....

Guess it's finally settled then!:cocktail: :darkbeer:


----------



## Free Range

> 1)how are they hurt by what type of bow another hunter chooses to use


Not the issue, but if you want a answer, it is, no weapon being used in a lawful manner will hurt my hunting.



> 2) why does the anti xbow organizations have to lie about crossbows


No proof they lied, you have never brought proof as to where the test was held and who they used as the shooters. You are lying, unless you can prove where the test was held and who they used as test subjects.



> 3) why can't the anti xbow forces come up with proof to justify their claims crossbows are unfair


Unfair is a subjective word, it’s like proving a blue bird isn’t really blue. 



> 4) why was it OK for compounds to demand and get equal billing in archery season but its wrong for crossbows to do the same


Because they are hand held and don’t use a locking device to hold the string for you. 



> 5) why do the more loony ARC posters pretend xbows are not bows


Because the are x-bow not bows, why do the loony ABH pretend they are bows?


----------



## Free Range

Guess it's finally settled then!

Nope not settled at all. When should he hang it up? 

If opinion is not allowed and you are not interested in opinion, then why do you post so much of it? 

You stepped in it, now be a man and answer the question. 

The x-bow is not FC in archery season as defined by P&Y. Simple really, now if you want to start your own club and make your own FC rules then go for it. So what does this have to do with facts, you keep bringing up opinions and asking for facts, not very consistent if you ask me.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> The x-bow is not FC in archery season as defined by P&Y. Simple really, now if you want to start your own club and make your own FC rules then go for it. So what does this have to do with facts, you keep bringing up opinions and asking for facts, not very consistent if you ask me.


THAT only matters to those who care what P&Y have to say,(and that's not me) they do not speak for most bowhunters......period, maybe you'll be able to prove they do?? Then prove how many say they care about them, are real members.......

I'll say it again, feel free to skip the "opinon posts", I have no problem with your doing so, they do show some relevent facts, but that is not the real point.......THAT would be, I have the real data posted to support what WE have been saying, your "being stuck" on one post of many serves no real purpose except to avoid what has been asked......

As I said, lets see your data, facts and stats........be sure they are accurate and factual, only then will we be able to see if they are FC as of now there is nothing of value been posted to say they are not....plenty to prove that they are......


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> THAT is the lie. I've seen more than a few who think it should be one season, any weapon. * Even your staunch supporter, Willie, has posted that he is not opposed to MZ in archery season.*
> 
> 
> WRONG again!
> 
> 
> http://www.tndeer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000284;p=4
> 
> Here is his quote "No, I don't wnat an "any weapon season". Guns don't belong in archery season."
> 
> Exactly as it is there (he goes by TOW on that board btw "willie" was already taken,fwiw) feel free to read it yourselves...
> 
> Remember - you're not bowhunters. Your crossbow hunters.


Once again, proof of what is being said.....


----------



## Tim4Trout

The only ones that should be bound by pope and young's rules are those who are members of that org and/or who are attempting to qualify an animal for inclusion in their book.

Pope and young *does not* dictate the hunting rules for Tim4Trout


----------



## twogun

FreeRange,



> *The x-bow is not FC in archery season as defined by P&Y.* Simple really, now if you want to start your own club and make your own FC rules then go for it. So what does this have to do with facts, you keep bringing up opinions and asking for facts, not very consistent if you ask me.



This is not accurate. 

P&Y does not recognise crossbow kills in their records program. They do not support the use of crossbows during bow seasons.

BUT

They *do not* consider crossbow use, where legal, to be a violation of "Fair Chase".


----------



## thesource

Tim4Trout said:


> The only ones that should be bound by pope and young's rules are those who are members of that org and/or who are attempting to qualify an animal for inclusion in their book.
> 
> Pope and young *does not* dictate the hunting rules for Tim4Trout


If Tim4Trout doesn't follow P&Y's rules of fair chase, then Tim4trout is an unethical hunter, and part of the problem rather than the solution.

Tim4trout - you are obviously active in protecting bowhunters' rights, but if you do not help protect bowhunting's heritage and its integrity ....you are not on the right side.

Your tagline is wrong. Unethical hunters will cause hunting's demise....and they have already started.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said 

*" So what does this have to do with facts, you keep bringing up opinions and asking for facts, not very consistent if you ask me."*

Not very accurate, I have posted several facts along with supporting data it is YOU who is focused on opinions(mostly your own I might add).....

I told you the entire time you kept asking me to post my facts(and accusing me of not having them) that IF I posted them, the facts and data were not up for any debate by myself.......nor was I interested in what you "think" the mean or do not mean......

I would only be interested in some factual data to disprove it, or at least somewhat support your view, at this time, I am still waiting , though I have had mine posted for some time now..... 

Now you can continue to *try* to avoid the issue, a deal is a deal, I have posted my facts and supporting data why the crossbow should be allowed since the compound is, including success rates, harvest figures, NEW hunters, NEW archery hunters etc.etc.etc.

I am interested in your data with relevent facts to support your views on THIS matter.....

You stated you haven't gotten that far yet, don't know what I can do about that except ask that you "move on", being stuck where you are now isn't getting anywhere :cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> *If Tim4Trout doesn't follow P&Y's rules of fair chase, then Tim4trout is an unethical hunter, and part of the problem rather than the solution.*
> 
> 
> Tim4trout - you are obviously active in protecting bowhunters' rights, but if you do not help protect bowhunting's heritage and its integrity ....you are not on the right side.
> 
> Your tagline is wrong. Unethical hunters will cause hunting's demise....and they have already started.


Exactly (in your opinion) how is he(or anyone else who is a non-member) bound by their "opinions" or "rules"????

They do NOT speak for most hunters, nor most archery hunters nor most bowhunters, many have stated that fact....

P&Y 's "rules" only apply to those who CHOOSE to follow them obviosly he does not choose to do so, which is his right, and he's very,very far from being alone.....

Here (again) is some "heritage" for you Fred Bear advocated the "Two season hunter" Wanting gun hunters to join...........YOU call them "lazy".........who now is bad for bowhunting and "tradition"??:cocktail:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Here (again) is some "heritage" for you Fred Bear advocated the "Two season hunter" Wanting gun hunters to join...........YOU call them "lazy".........who now is bad for bowhunting and "tradition"??:cocktail:



You know, you are absolutely right.

One small detail. He wanted them to use a BOW. 



I don't call anyone who wants to hunt in bowseason and is willing to learn to use a bow lazy.

I call everyone who wants to hunt in bowseason but is UNWILLING to learn yo use a bow lazy.

You DO understand the difference, yes?


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> You know, you are absolutely right.
> 
> One small detail. He wanted them to use a BOW.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't call anyone who wants to hunt in bowseason and is willing to learn to use a bow lazy.
> 
> I call everyone who wants to hunt in bowseason but is UNWILLING to learn yo use a bow lazy.
> 
> You DO understand the difference, yes?


OH I understand, the problem IS it's *your opinion* that a crossbow is NOT a bow.........I don't agree and I'm NOT alone in that (far from it in fact)......

Since I'm asking for facts let's examine a few shall we?

Crossbow

An automatic *bow*: The *bow* string is tied on a wooden support that holds it. When a trigger is pressed, the wooden support releases the *bow* string, releasing the arrow. The crossbow required less strength to fire it, but early on took great strength to load, though this was solved with the addition of a crank. Another means of loading the crossbow was to use a small hook attached to the belt of the archer. The archer(NOTE-Get that - "ARCHER") would then hold the crossbow still by slipping his foot into a foothold at the tip of the *bow*. He then pulled the *bowstring* back by placing the hook in the crossbow's string and standing up. This permitted the firer to use his legs, instead of his arms, to pull back the string. Using this method, two-man teams with two crossbows (one would load the bow and then pass it to the firer in exchange for an unloaded bow) could produce a rate of fire comperable to contemporary bows. This method was not long-lived in European landwarfare, however, because the crossbow was soon after replaced by the musket.

The oldest remains of crossbows are found in East Asia and date back to 2000 BCE. Some crossbows are known as a bowgun. They launch stones or lead. This is a Chinese invention dating back to at least 300 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org

Now that we KNOW a crossbow Is a bow........ahh nevermind


----------



## aceoky

See also 

http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/advanced.htm

Pay particular attention to 

Advanced Archery Equipment
Recurve Bows Compound Bows *CrossBows*Arrow Rests Pressure Button Clicker
Sights Stabilisers Kisser Button
Peep Sight Nocking Point Locators
Finger Tabs Release Aids

Recurve Bows



CrossBows

Hmm imagine that 

I see they're listed with what??? OH yes, bows!!

Need more?:cocktail:


----------



## thesource

LOL.

You choose wikipedia's definition.

I prefer the state of KY's. It doesn't include the crossbow as archery equipment.

Since you are from KY, we'll stick to their definition.:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> You choose wikipedia's definition.
> 
> I prefer the state of KY's. It doesn't include the crossbow as archery equipment.
> 
> Since you are from KY, we'll stick to their definition.:darkbeer:


I'm not suprised somehow that you'd prefer the definition of legal archery tackle for the season(amended) than an actual factual definition.......but that's OK, shall I find more??:cocktail:


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Not the issue, but if you want a answer, it is, no weapon being used in a lawful manner will hurt my hunting.


so all the rantings are basically an exercise in whinings for the sake of whinings





Free Range said:


> No proof they lied, you have never brought proof as to where the test was held and who they used as the shooters. You are lying, unless you can prove where the test was held and who they used as test subjects.


claiming crossbows at 300 FPS shoot faster than most compound bows (circa 2000) or that novices with crossbows can outshoot professional level compound release shooters is a lie and I have proven it to be since the score of the top crossbow archer in US history would not have placed in the top 50 in the open compound division at NFAA Louisville. That you continue to ignore that makes you equally guilty of prevarication.





Free Range said:


> Unfair is a subjective word, it’s like proving a blue bird isn’t really blue.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they are hand held and don’t use a locking device to hold the string for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the are x-bow not bows, why do the loony ABH pretend they are bows?


cross BOWS, recurve BOWs, Compound BOws

silly semantics by people whose arguments based on logic are non-existent


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> If Tim4Trout doesn't follow P&Y's rules of fair chase, then Tim4trout is an unethical hunter, and part of the problem rather than the solution.
> 
> Tim4trout - you are obviously active in protecting bowhunters' rights, but if you do not help protect bowhunting's heritage and its integrity ....you are not on the right side.
> 
> Your tagline is wrong. Unethical hunters will cause hunting's demise....and they have already started.


no what will cause bowhunting's demise are narrow minded zealots who think anyone who doesn't buy into their extremism or apartheid aren't really bowhunters


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> cross BOWS, recurve BOWs, Compound BOws
> 
> silly semantics by people whose arguments based on logic are non-existent


Squirt gun, grease gun, glue gun - are these really guns, Jim?

Or is suggesting that because a word contains another, that automatically extends each and every characteristic of that word to the larger just "silly semantics by people whose arguments based on logic are non-existent."

Your socialist crossbow extremism is shining through again.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Squirt gun, grease gun, glue gun - are these really guns, Jim?
> 
> Or is suggesting that because a word contains another, that automatically extends each and every characteristic of that word to the larger just "silly semantics by people whose arguments based on logic are non-existent."
> 
> Your socialist crossbow extremism is shining through again.



well lets see how easy it is to take this stupidity apart-I noted the gun fixation a while back

GO TO A GUN SHOP-do they sell squirt guns-NONE THAT I shop at
How about grease guns-yes if they have a CLASS III license and you mean the M3 smg but no they don't sell the tool

No glue guns either

GO to a bow shop or an archery shop

everyone in Ohio I have been to (a few dozens) has CROSS Bows, COMPOUND bows and RECURVE bows and LONG bows. actually there are MORE WITH CROSSBOWS than longbows. EVERY major archery catalog-Cabelas, BPS, LANCASTER, PAPES, etc sells crossbows and in companies like BPS and CABELAS, the crossbows are on the same section as the other bows

try harder source, that point of yours was lame

Lets follow sources stupid point a bit farther

anyone here belong to a GUN CLUB

anyone see people using say grease guns or squirt guns in organized activities at a GUN CLUB

How about the NRA, the ATA, the NSSA, the USPSA or IDPA? IMHSA? anyone see the NRA Magazine doing reviews on grease guns, squirt guns or glue guns? Does IPSC have a glue gun division? HOw about Camp Perry-is there a grease gun event

Now lets look at the NAA-yep, they have a crossbow division
So does the NFAA
SO does the IBO

You lose-again-source


----------



## Bellows1

***Why don't you all take this down to the Crossbow forum?*** 

Bellows1


----------



## Jim C

Bellows1 said:


> ***Why don't you all take this down to the Crossbow forum?***
> 
> Bellows1


In all fairness Bellows-the anti xbow guys have mostly all been banned down there and the moderator won't let them tell us why a crossbow isn't a bow down there. as long as people don't call each other "fa&s or other such things why not let it go on? source recruits more for our side then any advertisement horton buys:wink:


----------



## Bellows1

Jim C said:


> In all fairness Bellows-the anti xbow guys have mostly all been banned down there and the moderator won't let them tell us why a crossbow isn't a bow down there.


That was my point. :wink: 

You all have at it, but I don't want any more why was I banned PM's.  and start a new thread once and a while.


----------



## greenboy

over 750 posts an fr-source are still at it with [email protected] stuff, against crossbow use in archery season. hats of to aceoky, jim c. for showing how foolish there reasoning is. [email protected] does not speak for me , an if i shot the big deer of the year i would not enter it. there are more hunters that buy tags than there are [email protected] members. but i am gald that source-fr have a place that they can meet people that think like they do.weather its a crossbow,compound,longbow its still hunting an all belong in one season archery, the source-fr are a small fry an are going to lose, crossbow are comeing in archery season as TO many are wanting it. this fc is a smoke screen to stop the crossbow movement.all these web sites in the last 6 mos. prove that. the holly than now people will lose crossbows in ny!!!!!!:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

The arguments that fly with people who believe that novices with crossbows will outshoot 300/55X compound archers might find the gun argument telling. Those of us who can actually shoot 300 with a compound and compete with crossbows know better and find that level argument to be minor league nonsense


----------



## KOhunter

*Please don't*



Bellows1 said:


> ***Why don't you all take this down to the Crossbow forum?***
> 
> Bellows1


Please don't. It's the one place you can go and participate in a conversation with folks who aren't trying to argue with you. As long as these guys want to just stay on one thread and beat their heads against the wall, that's fine with me. Why would you care where they post. Just don't read the thread...simple.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Source,

I know you've been busy...but when you get time to stop talking about crossbows, can we talk about fair chase? Here are the questions....


You don't have to speak for pope and young. I'm not asking you to. Their rules speak for themselves. Who would you recommend that I go to if I can't get the history or rules of fair chase directly from pope and young? I would much rather get the straight scoop from pope and young then get misinterpretations from various folks that should or shouldn't be speaking for pope and young? 

If the previous rules are no longer important, and all that is important is what we are doing today, then would it be correct to assume that heritage/tradition are not important, and all that matters is what we're doing in the here and now?

IF pope and young wants to pull the heritage/tradition card AND use its preeminence as THE top bowhunting to influence state determined rules (of fair chase), should its history be an open book?

So you'd advocate that the rules should periodically be reviewed and changed if necesssary/appropriate. Would you also advocate that the history of rule changing be open for review?


----------



## greenboy

this is to to much debate, why does the state not ask all bow, gun, big game hunters weather or not crossbow should be allowed in archery season. i can live with the results. fc,crossbows lets forget this stuff @ get the dec.gov. out of it let hunters decide. :darkbeer:


----------



## Tim4Trout

In response to a previous post by "thesource" who in his endless inability to provide any viable and indisputable facts to support his anti crossbow position, and as it seems can do no better than to try to maliciously paint me as being an unethical problem of hunting ...


It doesn't matter how one hunts if there are no more hunters. 

To preserve the future of hunting, we must first counteract the current ratio of 60 replacements for every 100 persons who leave the sport. When an individual or group formally stands in the way of counteracting such as pope and young does with their stance against crossbows, the future of hunting suffers.

Therefore _they_ are the problem and not I

My tagline, as "thesource" calls it, was originally penned by someone who has done more to protect, preserve, and promote hunting than the one posting here under the handle of "the source" ever has done or could ever do.

He "thesource" may be partially right about one thing as it pertains to being ethical.

Based upon that which "ethics" has unfortunately morphed into over the years ...

I may not be an ethical hunter, and if so I refuse to become one.

Inspried by the person who originally penned my current "tagline", here is a piece I wrote a few months back.

--------

Why we must eliminate ETHICS from hunting.

Don't get me wrong. In spite of the above title I'm not saying that ethics should be totally abandoned. I am however saying that I believe there are certain problems with "ethics" these days which I feel need to be addressed, else the future of hunting as we know it will be in jeapordy. 

Years ago when I first became a hunter, the issue of ethics was brought up. What ethics referred to for me back then was essencially associated with how one was expected to conduct themselves while afield. 

Aside from obeying regulations, basically it involved behaving the way you might be expected to behave in church, or at a formal dinner, or as someone's house guest. Being an ethical hunter meant respecting property and being courteous to land owners. It meant presenting one's self in a respectable manner if you ventured into a public facility (i.e. store or restaurant) before or after hunting. In laymans terms it simply meant behaving in such a way that your actions COULD NOT be used by others to paint hunters in the image of a negative stereotypical picture of the proverbial backwoods ******* hunting "Bubba" slob. 

Since then the term "ethics" has essencially been hijacked. 

Today it seems that being accepted as an ethical hunter is no longer limited to behaving like a gentleman versus a neanderthal. 

These days it seems that almost every miniscule aspect of hunting is somehow being challenged in every way shape or form by someone as to whether or not it passes an ethics test. 

Hunters, even those who may be viewed as purists or elitists, are almost always looking for some way to increase their chances for success. We purchase and use special clothing designed to conceal our presence. We use various impliments to mimic and attract the game we seek. We use devices designed to help position ourselves for better views and shot possibilities, etc. 

Yet today if you hunt and choose to impliment a tactic in an attempt to increase your chances for success, there is always someone out there who will question whether or not what you are doing is "ethical". 

If you place bait, or use hounds, or hunt within a high fence enclosure, undoubtedly there will be someone who will view your choice as having the potential to increase your chances for success beyond their personal threshold for they consider to be the "fair chase challenge" of hunting and will automatically question whether or not it is ethical. 

If fact today the issue of ethics even goes beyond questioning the use of a tactic designed to potentially increase success. 

When I began hunting I was taught to aim for a deer's vital organs. I was also taught not to take shots at running deer, or shots through brush, or shots at deer that are poorly positioned, or long distance "Hail Mary" shots. I was taught these things because unless one possesses exceptional marksmanship ability, ( I was hunting with others some of whom were easily capable of consistantly demolishing 99 out of 100 clay targets on a trap or skeet field ), that such shots often incured a low chance of being successful, not because they were necessarily considered as being "unethical". 

Yet today, even if one can constantly shoot one inch groups of arrows at 40 yards, mention taking such a shot while deer hunting and there will sure to be an out pouring from others who consider such long distance shots as being unethcial. 

If I choose not to take a shot with a bow beyond a certain distance, it is because I do not feel confident in my ability to hit a target at such a distance on a consistant basis to ensure success, not because such a shot is necessarily unethical.

If I choose not to use bait, it is because I've chosen to take on the personal challenge of attempting to take game without bait, not because baiting is necessarily unethical. 

While behaving in such a manner while afield that incurs respect from one's peers and outside observers ( sans radical anti hunters who will always view our actions in a negative light ) should be ubiquitous amongst hunters, the issue of ethics as it pertains to that such as method ( where legal ) or shot choice should be up to the individual and not decided by others based upon their personal views. 

It is in my opinion that we must take ethics back to the basics of what I believe it should incur. Respectful behavior. Not something which has become hijacked to be a judgement factor these days for every aspect of how we choose to hunt.

*******

In addition ...

The so called "ethical hunter" of today who believes that being ethcal must incur not engaging in every miniscule aspect of hunting that someone might question often sits on his or her self imposed holier than thou throne while his fellow sportsmen's choices of equipment and tactics continiously come under attack by anti hunting factions. Too often he or she is oblivious to the following words written by the largest and most politically powerful of all anti hunting factions ( hsus )

_In all cases, sport hunting inflicts undeniable cruelty—pain, trauma, wounding, and death—on living, sentient creatures. The Humane Society of the United States believes that causing suffering and death is by definition inhumane, regardless of method. _

To today's "I am an ethical hunter, therefore lets support efforts to ban X,Y, and Z", the phrases "in all cases" and "regardless of method" simply fall on the deaf ears of ignorance and it is that ignorance which brings forth ...

" Real Hunters " are so ethical they are going to shut hunting down someday.

As it pertains to my personal ethics, I will not take a foolish shot or a shot beyond my means, I will respect the hunting laws where I pursue game as well as landowners, etc. where I hunt. I will promote hunting in a positive way and encourage other hunters to do so as well, etc.

However I will not stand idle and allow others, i.e. pope and young, who may feel that they have been granted some right to dictate my actions to tell me what my ethics as a hunter shall consist of.


----------



## aceoky

*Where ya posting from?*



Free Range said:


> TX this is your first post, directed at me, no less, I will just quote the part about PETA and Brady.
> 
> 
> 
> Now in my book that is an insult, anyway you look at it.
> 
> Now if you want to discuss anything I will gladly accommodate you, but for your first post to come out and try this kind of BS is unacceptable, in my book.
> 
> Now I don’t agree with your position on inclusion, but can at least respect that you think all hunters should hunt with what they want to, any time they want, during one long season. At least you are not hypocritical in excluding some but not others. And just so you know, I don’t think gun hunters are lazy, I do have to wonder about those people that want to hunt during bow season, and could pull a bow, but won’t unless they can have a x-bow, now don’t that sound strange to you?
> 
> Wack’em and stack’em right? As long as you are outdoors, and killing something it’s all good?


As I said some time back, it's very easy to see from where you guys post from........it's a simple position of " me","mine", "mine" mine" , and I don't want to share.......I may well be fighting a losing battle, but fight it I will, then I can tell everyone how I fought to keep what was "mine".........

You guys post from the position that more hunters is "overcrowding" then spew forth" crossbows in their own season" knowing full well the only way to get that is to "chop up the existing bow seasons"in most states......there is not much demand for a July 4 deer hunt, and most hunters like to eat the deer they kill, spoiled meat wouldn't help our image any either btw.

You post from the position you are "entitled" or deserve an "exclusive season" but are always unable to prove why you deserve one...........which among you have done more for archery than JimC?? Yet you don't see him on every crossbow forum he can find saying this "me" mine bs......ask yourselves why........

You guys post from the position of "protecting bowhunting" and "tradition", never realizing IF our numbers continue to drop as they have been there will not be enough of us left to matter, then what ??? The DNR's of the states who's job is to maintain the herds will have little choice but to extend the gun seasons........leaving us, at best with a few very urban areas we get to hunt.......yes, it's easy to see where you guys post from.......and easy to see that it harms us all.........

"Tradition" in and of itself isn't "all bad", neither is change.....I'm glad that now even work trucks have cold air, didn't used to , but they do now.......not "tradition" but an improvement most would agree with.......

*I* post from the position that we are ALL hunters and are one large extended family, we are all equal, gun hunters, bow hunters, ML hunters...pistol hunters , we are one, regardless of gender,race,weapons we ARE one huge extended family all equal......you guys say except for a select few "elite"members the rest are "step children", that is from where you guys post.......which is better for our image and our future???

It's your group's "MO" to feel free to insult the rest of us, calling us "lazy" and "cheaters" to name only a couple, and yet you have "no doubt the gun hunters will be there if bow hunting is in danger".......I post from the position, why risk it? I can see a group of deer hunters in camp (they are gun hunters btw) one says "the bowhunters are in serious danger this time", one of the gun hunters says " Well, I sure hate to hear that, if I weren't so lazy, I'd be happy to do what I can to help, too bad for them, I'm just so lazy isn't it?" Who can guess what a bunch more would then likely say?? :cocktail: 

Happen? Maybe maybe not.........from where you guys post from, it's a risk you're taking, from where *I* post from it's dividing us further and for no real benefit but at great risk.........

From where you guys post from, more archers because of the crossbow is "dilloution".......from where I post from , first I don't agree, secondly if you honestly believe that, it's better to have water in the whiskey than none (if you like whiskey)  

From where you guys post from the Antis have always been here and after us........from where I post from, I agree, I also acknowledge they're merging and gaining more power and $$$ not less, do you honestly think that makes them more or less of a threat??

From where you guys are posting from, so easily seen by anyone even half way looking, seperate seasons(though again impossible without getting into existing bow seasons so it's a moot point at best) places focus on division, where I post from UNITY rocks, and the more the better for all of us......you say overcrowding, first I say prove it, then if you can so what? Gun hunters know how to get away from the crowds, many bowhunters do as well, many of us, would use these "crowds" of hunters to move deer our way, instead of whining...."mine" "me" "mine", we would enjoy the extra family members in the woods and let them help us by being set up for them to move deer to us!

I post from the position with all of the facts and data on our side, there is simply no good reason to allow the compound and not the crossbow; you guys post from the position, that since you have NO real facts and data to try to prove or even somewhat support your views the answer is to insult, attack the real data and anyone "brave enough"to post it....in an obvious attempt to keep the fact "quiet", though it's not working very well.....it's all you guys have and you"run with it"..then have the nerve to say the crossbow violates fair chase! 

You post from the position that anyone can hunt without the crossbow, by using a gun......I post from the posistion that is proven to not be truth, some can't handle the recoil and report of a gun, shoulder problems prevent even more from doing so......

I post from the position, that I LOVE early season bowhunting, nothing like getting up close and personal with a big deer that hasn't been so spooked by gunfire, as to be so nervous as to not even eat for very long where a shot is near impossible.......(before gun season that is NOT the case though is it?)

I WANT others to experience that yes even with a crossbow you guys do not; you want it all for yourselves....... 

I post from the postition that expanding the crossbow for the entire archery season will NOT affect other bowhunters in any negative way, your position is "so what"?? They can do it "MY way" or "not at all", but can't seem to show us why with any facts or data........ 

That's where I see you guys posting from......

AND where I'm posting from......most can see which IS harming all of us, and which one is not....

Again if you don't want to be mentioned in with the anti-hunters then do not continue to use THEIR exact same tactics........it simply depends on where you're posting from, even if it IS from the "heart", one must "temper" that with some rational thoughts......and perhaps some "common sense" 

I know it's Friday, so I wanted to post this early so you'd have some time(all weekend) to really think about where you guys ARE posting from, AND where we are.......


----------



## Free Range

so all the rantings are basically an exercise in whinings for the sake of whinings


Nope it goes beyond the weapon. 

claiming crossbows at 300 FPS shoot faster than most compound bows (circa 2000) or that novices with crossbows can outshoot professional level compound release shooters is a lie and I have proven it to be since the score of the top crossbow archer in US history would not have placed in the top 50 in the open compound division at NFAA Louisville. That you continue to ignore that makes you equally guilty of prevarication.

Again, the study was not done in 2000, only revised, and as far as I know the twice as fast part was not the part revised. And you have only proven it by your definition of top level shooter. As we already proved by poll here on AT there are more then one definition of top level shooter. Either get a copy of the report and prove they used false information, or stop lying about it. 

cross BOWS, recurve BOWs, Compound BOws

silly semantics by people whose arguments based on logic are non-existent

Rain BOW, ox BOW, El BOW, silly semantics by those that want to invade anothers season.


----------



## aceoky

Rain BOW, ox BOW, El BOW

And OF these how many would you find in a bow shop? Archery shop???


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Define better - more likely to kill a deer? If so, I believe you are wrong.
> 
> It is OBVIOUS that the choice of implement can make a hunter more successful.
> 
> Increases in effective range (the distance that you can maintain adequate accuracy) are absolutely correlatable to higher success.
> 
> For example, how many times have you found yourself holding a bow ans thinking "dang, if I only had a shotgun!" as a bruiser buck mosied along 10 yards out of your ethical bowrange?
> 
> Having that shotgun wouldn't make you a better hunter, but it would have made you a successful hunter, and that is what we're talking about.
> 
> Different implements enable additional options at additional ranges, and that means they are advantaged.
> 
> To say otherwise is blindly ignoring that what these implements would do is the opposite of what you state. They reward less skilled hunters, those who were not capable of closing the distance or closing the deal with a bow.
> 
> They provide ADVANTAGE.
> 
> I don't mind you having a different opinion about whether or not that advantage is unfair or improper.
> 
> I do mind you pretending (spinning) that different weapons do not offer advantage.


I will define better, as in a better hunter. Thanks for providing me the opportunity.
Becoming a better HUNTER is not the same thing as becoming a better MARKSMAN. Hunting is not the same as shooting. Hunting involves undertsnading your quarry, properly reading sign and trails, scouting to determine territorial movement patterns, discovering what food sources are holding and drawing animals, selecting the proper place for the ambush, and then having the patience and stealth to to sit still, without movement, using the winds to your advantage and having a little luck that you are in the right place at the right time. None of this improves with the implement you have in your hands. This includes any and all bows, modern firearms, black powder firearms, and even video and camera equipment.

Hunting and marksmanship are two entirely different ballgames. Marksmanship improvement does not happen with an implement choice, Source, it happens through practice, no matter what implement is in your hands. That is a FACT. To attempt to state otherwise is a complete disservice to sportsmen and women everywhere. To wildly assert that a crossbow suddenly turns someone into a Howard Hill or a Frank Butler is pure bovine excrement, and diminishes the hard work and efforts of the sportsmen and women who have preceeded us, performing the hard working in educating sportsmen and women about the importance of practice and dedication to the craft. It is misleading and disengenuous for anyone to state these talking points that you just have.

Marksmanship and woodsmanship are two entirely different ballgames. An implement does not draw animals into range. That comes from woodsmanship/ hunting skills. I hardly believe anyone will attempt to argue this fact with any credibilty.

Range. Certainly different implements deliver different effective ranges. But effective range is not solely accomplished with an implement. There again is another falacy you continue to state. In order to understand effective range, again, the hunter must develop the marksmanship skills which requires practice, much practice. Even then, simply because one believes an implement is capable of 50, 100, 200 yards and beyond effective kill range does not automatically mean the hunter gets this ability. This comes from continual shooting and muscle memory retention skills only developed throug practice. Again, this is a FACT that no responsible hunter would argue against, yet here you are arguing that the crossbow must have magical properties not shared by any other implement, bow or gun, that simply passes effective range capabilities through osmosis to the hunter upon him or her laying hands on the crossbow.

Now it is well understood that the effective range of a crossbow in the field is virtually identical to that of a compound bow. Argue all you want that this is untrue, but your denial of ths FACT doesn't change the FACT. I know, the next thing I'll hear from you is that JimC and Revival state the effective range is 40 yards, but you state this while ifnoring the truths about hunter marksmanship skills and the necessary work required to become proficient at this range, in the field, while stating that it may take a compound shooter years of practice to be effective at 30 yards. I got news for you. No matter what implement is chosen, it requires work to master. Certainly some people have a natural aptitude for shooting, while others do not. Toss that out, and the majority still have to practice before an effective range is determined for that individual.

I also know you will spout off a few examples of crossbow hunters bragging about killing a deer at 50 yards. For every example of this you throw out there, I can match you with examples of compound hunters bragging about the same thing. Heck, I'm sure you will find several posts on this site in the Bowhunters Forum stating exactly that!

Let's get with reality here, and cease the disengenuous baloney. Your wild statements are lacking foundation in the truth, and quite frankly do the hunting community a severe disservice, leading some to think that the crossbow is some magical implement of yore, when indeed it is up to the hunter to develop the necessary skills to become a successful and skilled hunter.


----------



## Free Range

> You guys post from the position that more hunters is "overcrowding" then spew forth" crossbows in their own season" knowing full well the only way to get that is to "chop up the existing bow seasons"in most states......there is not much demand for a July 4 deer hunt, and most hunters like to eat the deer they kill, spoiled meat wouldn't help our image any either btw.


July 4th, who ever said that, and I have hunted in 90 degree weather for the opener in KS and they do it all the time in TX. You must not be much of a hunter if you can’t kill your deer dress it and get it on ice before it spoils. 



> which among you have done more for archery than JimC??


You mean bowhunting don’t you? And probably all of us have. 



> Yet you don't see him on every crossbow forum he can find saying this "me" mine bs......ask yourselves why........


What are you talking about, every time I see him anywhere he is saying me, mine, it’s his way or you are a bigot, it’s his way or you are a racist, it’s his way or you are a jihad. And just think he is on your side. 



> You guys post from the position of "protecting bowhunting" and "tradition", never realizing IF our numbers continue to drop as they have been there will not be enough of us left to matter, then what ??? The DNR's of the states who's job is to maintain the herds will have little choice but to extend the gun seasons........leaving us, at best with a few very urban areas we get to hunt.......yes, it's easy to see where you guys post from.......and easy to see that it harms us all.........


Ace you have flopped back and forth on this so many times it really isn’t funny any more. Bow season is not a deer herd management tool, period. And if the deer herd gets out of control then the logical then to do is extent gun season for a year or two. I see no problem with that at all, as long as it is temporary, to control the herd. 



> *I* post from the position that we are ALL hunters and are one large extended family, we are all equal, gun hunters, bow hunters, ML hunters...pistol hunters , we are one, regardless of gender,race,weapons we ARE one huge extended family all equal......you guys say except for a select few "elite"members the rest are "step children", that is from where you guys post.......which is better for our image and our future???


That is the most outrageous thing you have said yet. But it does show everyone here that what I have said is true, you want one long season, any weapon. You cannot justify any other stance after the quote above. If you are for segregating gun hunters, ML hunters, pistol hunters, then you are saying the exact same thing we are, if we are elite and think others are step children for wanting to keep the seasons separate then so are you, unless you want one long season. 



> I can see a group of deer hunters in camp (they are gun hunters btw) one says "the bowhunters are in serious danger this time", *ACE *the gun hunters says " Well, I sure hate to hear that, if I weren't so lazy, I'd be happy to do what I can to help, too bad for them, I'm just so lazy isn't it?" Who can guess what a bunch more would then likely say??





> (though again impossible without getting into existing bow seasons so it's a moot point at best)


Only impossible to a defeatist, or to someone who’s real agenda is to ruin archery season. 



> You post from the position that anyone can hunt without the crossbow, by using a gun......I post from the posistion that is proven to not be truth, some can't handle the recoil and report of a gun, shoulder problems prevent even more from doing so......


Show me a person that “CAN’T” hunt with a gun, and I will show you someone that is using it as an excuse. There may be those that won’t use a gun, but anybody that can use a x-bow can use a gun. 



> I post from the position, that I LOVE early season bowhunting, nothing like getting up close and personal with a big deer that hasn't been so spooked by gunfire, as to be so nervous as to not even eat for very long where a shot is near impossible.......(before gun season that is NOT the case though is it?)


You don’t know much about hunting if this is your position. It is not the sound of gun fire that spooks deer, it is the amount of people traipsing through the woods. I have seen deer on many of occasions completely ignore gun fire, and if you have hunted very much you would have to. It is the amount of people in the woods that make deer spooky, and that is what happens when you artificially raise the number of people in the woods during bow season. 



> I WANT others to experience that yes even with a crossbow you guys do not; you want it all for yourselves.......


A lie, we want it for anybody that wants to bow hunt. 



> I post from the postition that expanding the crossbow for the entire archery season will NOT affect other bowhunters in any negative way, your position is "so what"?? They can do it "MY way" or "not at all", but can't seem to show us why with any facts or data........


Wrong again, how many lies are you going to tell in one post, we post from the position that it will affect us and all the rest of the bow hunters, especially the ones on public ground that will have to deal with the spooky deer, see above. 



> I know it's Friday, so I wanted to post this early so you'd have some time(all weekend) to really think about where you guys ARE posting from, AND where we are.......


We know where you guys are posting from, it’s greed, it’s greed for bow season, its greed for money. And envy, you envy the early season, you envy the fact that most bowhunters are more dedicated then you, you envy the respect shown to bowhunters. 

And by the way, why is it that an old man should have to give up hunting just because you say he should? What happen to your extended family, what happen to unity, what happen to his worth? You are a hypocrite, every thing you have accused us of you have done yourself, yet you post threads like the one above proclaiming your superior moral worth. To me you sound like a televangelist spouting how righteous they are while bilking little old ladies out of their last dime. 

If you really want to unite, and are really concerned about the antis, then stop dividing hunters with your x-bow agenda. Work for your own season, or some sort of lasting compromise, not one step now and the rest later.


----------



## aceoky

Awesome post Doc! Great job in getting the facts out there, and it's much more than any weapon, you said it very well indeed!


----------



## aceoky

Thank you Free Range for proving my point so very well for me!

Again you have proven what little you know about anything especailly "out east".....for our first three WEEKS of archery season it was 90+ (and it's not uncommon either btw) and that is in September! So an "earlier time" IS impossible.....(unless you advocate NIGHT hunting, do you?) 

You claim I'm not a good hunter, thank you, what exactly do you base that upon?? Another insult of a fellow hunter made without any knowledge to base the facts or insult upon........as I said .....it's ALL you guys have ......so "run with it".........THAT divides hunters, NOT asking for inclusion.......that BS won't fool anyone.....but it's not stopping you and your fold from spewing it just the same......but then again it's all you've got to use, so you have little choice....you have NO facts or data or stats to support you "ideas" gun fire doesn't spook deer? YOU have some "brave deer" IN Colorado then ......everyone who beleives that BS please raise your hand!

I do NOT want any ONE long season, I'll ask nicely again , stop repeating that.......I've said what I MEAN to say, I do NOT need you to speak for me, and your not speaking the truth won't change that fact....

NO, YOu and yours want to seperate archery hunters that is NOT the same as seperate seasons for guns and archery, and YOU can't change that FACT with your "spin" and BS either......fwiw Anyone who has ever hunted with both KNOWs the differences and why they should stay seperate.....period......yeah, it's me who doesn't hunt much. 

YOU accused me of "wanting to ruin archery season" I take that as a personal insult......whatcha got to back that up with? 

I expect inclusion, JUST as the compound archers did.........did they ruin archery season? NO, then that is not my "agenda" either, baseless and clueless accusation at best.....

*We know where you guys are posting from, it’s greed, it’s greed for bow season, its greed for money. And envy, you envy the early season, you envy the fact that most bowhunters are more dedicated then you, you envy the respect shown to bowhunters. *

That is beyond insane! Where is all of this money coming from?? I seriously doubt that MOST bowhunters are more dedicated than I am , YOU stated that as a fact........perhaps you should Now prove it?? HOW many times do you need to be told, I AM a bowhunter....don't shoot a crossbow, I unlike you guys don't have any problems with those who do........funny how you KNOW of my years in the Archery in the Schools program in KY and would make a statement such as that knowing it's entirely 100% FALSE.......

Thus I don't envy any of it, I AM a part of it, I just want MORE NOT LESS TO be as well...........THAT is the differnce in me and you guys.....fwiw




Quote:
I post from the postition that expanding the crossbow for the entire archery season will NOT affect other bowhunters in any negative way, your position is "so what"?? They can do it "MY way" or "not at all", but can't seem to show us why with any facts or data........ 


Wrong again, how many lies are you going to tell in one post, we post from the position that it will affect us and all the rest of the bow hunters, especially the ones on public ground that will have to deal with the spooky deer, see above. 

YOU have all been asked to prove that WE are still waiting, since you haven't I guess it's NOT going to impact you in ANY negative ways, and please refrain from calling other hunters a liar, it makes you look even worse.......


Quote:
I WANT others to experience that *yes even with a crossbow *you guys do not; you want it all for yourselves....... 


*A lie, we want it for anybody that wants to bow hunt*.

Well, then glad you finally "got it", there you have it folks they ARE for the crossbow in archery season!!:darkbeer: 

It is a proven fact that a crossbow is a BOW..........so that is that!!!

You have 100% proven exactly what I've said, thank you very ,very much!:darkbeer: :cocktail: :darkbeer:


----------



## Free Range

proven what, that you can't answer a question, yep, you're right there.


----------



## aceoky

"can't " and "won't" are not the same thing.....it's not relevent, and keep asking, it isn't going to change either! 

Proven where it's from you guys post......but I'm glad you admited that you and yours want it for all who want to bowhunt! That's great news! :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range,

Just FYI; I just heard the weekend weather and they're saying mid 90's here for SUNDAY (that's a bit ahead of July 4th btw) :cocktail:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Show me a person that “CAN’T” hunt with a gun, and I will show you someone that is using it as an excuse. There may be those that won’t use a gun, but anybody that can use a x-bow can use a gun.
> 
> NO need to you've been told by those who know them that say that they can't , I've met several that either couldn't shoot them or shouldn't hunt with them, due to excessive flinching, (aka afraid of the gun) YOU should KNOW that, since you say you're a hunter????
> 
> But YOUR soloution seems to be send 'em out anyway, they CAN still hunt after all? WOW!
> 
> 
> And by the way, why is it that an old man should have to give up hunting just because you say he should?
> 
> I would VERY much like for YOU to show where I stated that!!!
> 
> I *refused to answer* (and after your making such a big deal about it too, shame on you).... so YOU state as a fact something that I NEVER said, (and it's getting OLD fast.......stick to the truth, IF you're going to say "I" said something OK .....sheeesessssshhhh
> 
> NOW it's funny right under that post you state I can't answer a simple quesion, YET HERE you accuse me of answering it.....that's "real good".......LOL
> 
> What happen to your extended family, what happen to unity, what happen to his worth?
> 
> YOU tell us all, you love to speak for others so well, and tell them when and how they can hunt so please "fill us in", because I have NO idea where you're getting this "stuff" from...While you're at that , YOU answer your own question about the senior hunter and he can't use the crossbow any longer......since I won't ,
> 
> 
> If you really want to unite, and are really concerned about the antis, then stop dividing hunters with your x-bow agenda.
> 
> AGAIN.....prove it's US dividing anyone, we're for unity and inclusion, it's YOU and YOUR side that wants seperation, and ARE dividing hunters with it..... stop "spinning things" and be honest, We are not doing anything those who got compounds into the archery season didn't do........go preach to them.....talk about hypocritical, welcome the compound shooters, after they've done the exact same thing, and accuse US of division......thanks for showing us all what you're really all "about"
> 
> 
> Work for your own season, or some sort of lasting compromise, not one step now and the rest later.


Thank you, but I don't need or want your permission much less your telling me what or how to do things......


BTW, we are all still waiting on YOUR data and actual facts(not your opinions) that support any of your claims that the crossbow is NOT fair chase and thus does not belong but the compound still does(and btw P&Y don't matter or count as most do not abide by their rules or follow their "lead")


----------



## TXWhackMaster

Jim C said:


> source recruits more for our side then any advertisement horton buys:wink:


You're right. All the "fair chase" and "ethical hunting" assalts have convinced me.


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> Let's get with reality here, and cease the disengenuous baloney. Your wild statements are lacking foundation in the truth, and quite frankly do the hunting community a severe disservice, leading some to think that the crossbow is some magical implement of yore, when indeed it is up to the hunter to develop the necessary skills to become a successful and skilled hunter.


THAT is disengenuous baloney.

YOUR wild statements are starting to irritate mw.

For you to suggest that I lead anyone to think the crossbow is magical is not just a disservice - it is a flagrant untruth.

You are constantly demanding "facts" Doc - now I demand one.

SHOW ME where I said anything that would suggest "magical" qualities to the crossbow....you CANNOT.

Yes. "It is up to the hunter to develop the necessary skills to become a successful and skilled hunter", BUT the level of skill you require is DEPENDANT on the weapon you choose to carry.

C'mon, Doc. Say otherwise amd PROVE it...I'm waiting.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> THAT is disengenuous baloney.
> 
> YOUR wild statements are starting to irritate mw.
> 
> For you to suggest that I lead anyone to think the crossbow is magical is not just a disservice - it is a flagrant untruth.
> 
> You are constantly demanding "facts" Doc - now I demand one.
> 
> SHOW ME where I said anything that would suggest "magical" qualities to the crossbow....you CANNOT.
> 
> Yes. "It is up to the hunter to develop the necessary skills to become a successful and skilled hunter", BUT the level of skill you require is DEPENDANT on the weapon you choose to carry.
> 
> C'mon, Doc. Say otherwise amd PROVE it...I'm waiting.


Rough day??? :tongue:


----------



## thesource

Tim4Trout said:


> In response to a previous post by "thesource" who in his endless inability to provide any viable and indisputable facts to support his anti crossbow position, and as it seems can do no better than to try to maliciously paint me as being an unethical problem of hunting ...



Your opinion of me, or my position, is just that....your opinion.

No worries, mate.

Here's a thought for you to ponder. If you do not take a stand as "less than ethical" hunting equipment and methods infiltrate bowhunting.....

Will it be worth saving?

I, for one, believe that bowhunting is worth protecting.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Your opinion of me, or my position, is just that....your opinion.
> 
> No worries, mate.
> 
> Here's a thought for you to ponder. If you do not take a stand as *"less than ethical" hunting equipment and methods* infiltrate bowhunting.....
> 
> Will it be worth saving?
> 
> I, for one, believe that bowhunting is worth protecting.


NOW that's funny right there I don't care who you are!!!

Exaclty when and by whom was the crossbow "established" as either of those???:darkbeer: :cocktail: 

IF what is being done is "protecting bowhunting", I'd *really* hate to see you try to destroy it!!:wink: 

You're not "protecting bowhunting", you're *trying* to limit and or exclude others because of their choice of archery weapon, at least let's call it what it "is"......??


----------



## thesource

Ethical considerations extend beyond crossbows, as does my point.

If you dilute the essence of bowhunting enough, it will not be worth saving, and I want to save it.

Think about it a minute before you fire back another whimpering and sarcastic reply, aceoky.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Ethical considerations extend beyond crossbows, as does my point.
> 
> If you dilute the essence of bowhunting enough, it will not be worth saving, and I want to save it.
> 
> Think about it a minute before you fire back another whimpering and sarcastic reply, aceoky.


.

I think "ethics" has an even more individual and broad interpretation than "fair chase " does.......and it's impossible to honestly debate either one entirely because, it really is an individual choice........IF it's "fair chase" or "ethical" to you no one has any right(so long as it's legal) to question that individual decision........ 

Everyone has the right to do or not do as they decide within the limits of the law, and as a very large and diverse group, that IS how it should be imho

(surprise , surprise):tongue:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> .
> Everyone has the right to do or not do as they decide within the limits of the law, and as a very large and diverse group
> (surprise , surprise):tongue:


Surprise, surprise .... I AGREE with you.

Everyone does have the right to do or not do within the limits of the law.


Here's where we disagree. I feel that the poor decisions others make reflect badly on me and on bowhunting.

The rules of fair chase are supposed to put us all on the same page. When you and people like you decide you can do whatever you want - that's where we run into trouble.

If everyone followed the rules of fair chance as well as the laws, we would be in better shape. I don't see how one could argue with that.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Surprise, surprise .... I AGREE with you.
> 
> Everyone does have the right to do or not do within the limits of the law.
> 
> 
> Here's where we disagree. I feel that the poor decisions others make reflect badly on me and on bowhunting.
> 
> The rules of fair chase are supposed to put us all on the same page. When you and people like you decide you can do whatever you want - that's where we run into trouble.
> 
> If everyone followed the rules of fair chance as well as the laws, we would be in better shape. I don't see how one could argue with that.


That would depend 100% on WHO'S rules of "fair chase" you mean(obviously you'd want to use P&Y, I on the other hand don't care one iota about their opinions on what is and isn't "fair" or how they include or don't in their book etc.).......

You say a crossbow isn't fair chase, but have no way of proviing that while we've proven the success rates in too many states prove they offer no REAL advantage in hunting situations........so it's "fine" for you to decide to not use one based on your beliefs thereof.....

What is NOT fine is for you to tell others they are NOT fair chase......it's not been proven to be in all of these pages, it can't be proven, because the facts and data have already proven it to not be true!

ALL archery must be "fair chase", just look at the % of the TOTAL harvests they comprise(yes even including the crossbow).......impossible to dispute, IF one looks at the facts......with success rates that low......it's obviously "fair chase" , no way around that fact......:cocktail:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> ALL archery must be "fair chase", just look at the % of the TOTAL harvests they comprise(yes even including the crossbow).......impossible to dispute, IF one looks at the facts......with success rates that low......it's obviously "fair chase" , no way around that fact......:cocktail:


So what you are telling me that if the harvest rate is equal to or less than the bow harvest rate, then they must be fair chase?

You will not accept mitigating circumstances that might sway your decision either way?


----------



## aceoky

Y'all must do some "wild hunting" up there in Ny IF any other legal big game weapons have an "equal to or less than harvest" when compared to archery!:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

I see Free Range is correct again.

You dodged the question.


----------



## aceoky

When a weapon or group of weapons only has a 2-5% sucess rate as archery in most states(and i"m aware that some states it's much higher but that is the exception not the rule)........it's pretty hard to argue anything is not fair!


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I see Free Range is correct again.
> 
> You dodged the question.


I see you spoke too soon or out of school, which was it?

BTW FR does not get to decide what I will or will not answer.....IF I want to I will, IF I don't, I won't.......:wink: 

And frankly I don't care how he feels about that FACT either! :darkbeer: :cocktail: :darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> When a weapon or group of weapons only has a 2-5% sucess rate as archery in most states(and i"m aware that some states it's much higher but that is the exception not the rule)........it's pretty hard to argue anything is not fair!


In what state might that be?

Or are you confusing % of total harvest with harvest rate?

Ohio, for example has a crossbow harvest rate of 16% (if you believe the estimates.)

GA crossbow harvest rate is ~50%.

That's hardly 2-5%.


----------



## aceoky

Quote:
Originally Posted by aceoky
ALL archery must be "fair chase", just look at the *% of the TOTAL harvests they comprise(*yes even including the crossbow).......impossible to dispute, IF one looks at the facts......with(EDIT) *harvest % rates that low*......it's obviously "fair chase" , no way around that fact......


----------



## thesource

Your edit was dishonest, since before it said "success rate."

Which do you mean?

% of total harvest isn't a fair number, since it depends on the total number of hunters with each weapon.

Success rate, or harvest rate, is better since it is a percentage, and therefore comparible across various equipment groups without regard to the total number of hunters in each group.

I'm ready to discuss either with you, but yoiu need to figure out what you're trying to say....duh.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Your edit was dishonest, since before it said "success rate."
> 
> Which do you mean?
> 
> % of total harvest isn't a fair number, since it depends on the total number of hunters with each weapon.
> 
> Success rate, or harvest rate, is better since it is a percentage, and therefore comparible across various equipment groups without regard to the total number of hunters in each group.
> 
> I'm ready to discuss either with you, but yoiu need to figure out what you're trying to say....duh.



NO my edit would have been dishonest, had I NOT posted (EDIT) next to it(that tells you I found my mistake and fixed it ) DUH


----------



## thesource

So which do you mean, harvest rate or % of total harvest.

Answer the question and stop dodging.

So what you are telling me that if the harvest rate is equal to or less than the bow harvest rate, then they must be fair chase?


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> So which do you mean, harvest rate or % of total harvest.
> 
> Answer the question and stop dodging.
> 
> So what you are telling me that if the harvest rate is equal to or less than the bow harvest rate, then they must be fair chase?


I DID answer it...........sheesh...

IF we're talking big game and I think we are, and IF the % of the TOTAL HARVEST is around the 2-5% of the TOTAL harvest with a LEGAL weapon.......how can it NOT be fair chase??? Do you even realize how many WON'T kill say the deer they're after.......if it were UNfair, you'd expect MORE to harvest???? 

Still IF ONLY taking say 5% of the TOTAL, one would expect people to choose an "easier" weapon, thus it MUST be "fair chase"........that help any??


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> I DID answer it...........sheesh...
> 
> IF we're talking big game and I think we are, and IF the % of the TOTAL HARVEST is around the 2-5% of the TOTAL harvest with a LEGAL weapon.......how can it NOT be fair chase??? Do you even realize how many WON'T kill say the deer they're after.......if it were UNfair, you'd expect MORE to harvest????
> 
> Still IF ONLY taking say 5% of the TOTAL, one would expect people to choose an "easier" weapon, thus it MUST be "fair chase"........that help any??



Your ignorance is showing.

First of all, what does harvest total have to do with fair chase? They count as harvested whether they were poached at night or still hunted with a long bow as long as they get checked in. You are so far off track with this line of reasoning you need a gps.

Secondly, since your talking % of total harvest, it has EVERYTHING to do with how many hunters are in that group. VA crossbow hunters had only 2.5% total harvest...because there was only 14,000 out of 264,000 licensed hunters. Even if EVERY single crossbow hunter was successful (100% harvest rate), their % of harvest would still only be 6%.

You are not making any sense. Your point is irrelevant. You should be talking about harvest rate.


----------



## Tim4Trout

If using a crossbow truly violated "fair chase" then there would be statistics available to prove such.

So show 'em to me . 

Oh and BTW, a 21% success rate for crossbow users vs 20% for non crossbow users would not suffice.


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Ethical considerations extend beyond crossbows, as does my point.
> 
> *If you dilute the essence of bowhunting enough, it will not be worth saving, and I want to save it.*
> 
> Think about it a minute before you fire back another whimpering and sarcastic reply, aceoky.


What a bunch of empty, emotional, dramatic, illogical jibberish.

Try to follow. A country only allows its citizens to attend Jewish Synagogues (sp?). Nothing else is allowed. If people want to worship a higher being, that is the only way they are allowed to do it. Some of the people in the church believe in God and the Old Testament but they also believe in Jesus and The New Testament. They just go along, so they can attend church and at least worship God.

A group gets together and wants to be allowed to attend a new church, one that includes the New Testament. A lot of the Jewish guys don't like the idea. They are affraid a new church with a new belief system will "dilute the essence" of their "traditional" beiefs.

A wise Rabi points out that their "essence" will be strengthened because the non believers in the group will leave making them more pure. He points out that it's the quality of the believer that counts not the quantity.

So, you see Source. With crossbow inclusion more, not all, you'll still have quite a few hypocrites, of the people worshipping at your altar will be "pure", thus strengthening your "essence" not diluting it. The fact is that your "essence" is already diluted with the unpure. You have a whole lot of "worshipers" who don't really believe in your gospel. They're just following along so they can participate. Those damned infidels!!!

What good is a tradition if it is forced? If your beloved "form" of archery is so special, it should be able to withstand crossbows.

Heck with crossbow inclusion, you'll be able to pat yourself on the back even harder. You'll be able to elevate yourself above a great many more people. Right now you only get to look down your nose at probobly a couple hundred thousand crossbow hunters. Give it a while, and you just might have a couple million. Man will you be special then.


----------



## aceoky

Awesome post twogun!

And imho a great analogy as well!

Very well done! (Applause here)


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> THAT is disengenuous baloney.
> 
> YOUR wild statements are starting to irritate mw.
> 
> For you to suggest that I lead anyone to think the crossbow is magical is not just a disservice - it is a flagrant untruth.
> 
> You are constantly demanding "facts" Doc - now I demand one.
> 
> SHOW ME where I said anything that would suggest "magical" qualities to the crossbow....you CANNOT.
> 
> Yes. "It is up to the hunter to develop the necessary skills to become a successful and skilled hunter", BUT the level of skill you require is DEPENDANT on the weapon you choose to carry.
> 
> *C'mon, Doc. Say otherwise amd PROVE it...I'm waiting*.


Allow me.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by twogun
> 
> What about the following does using a crossbow change?
> The simplicity of bowhunting is what attracts many people to the sport. They could shoot deer at longer ranges with a gun and, statistically, bring home more venison per day of hunting, but they prefer the limits that the bow and arrow impose.
> 
> What limits? Well, for one, no matter how powerful your bow, you still have to get almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it. Most deer shot with a bow are within 20 yards of the hunter. And in order for you to get a good shot, the deer, a bundle of acute senses, can't be aware of your presence.
> 
> This requirement brings primitive hunting techniques into play. To keep deer from seeing, smelling or hearing them, archery deer hunters often daub paint on their faces, don camouflage clothes, cover their human scent with animal urine and other natural odors and sit still as sphinxes for hours on end.
> 
> and....
> 
> Because of the demands of getting close to the deer, bowhunting requires planning, scouting and enough woods-craft to find deer travel routes and bedding areas. Then the hunter has to plan an ambush that takes into account wind direction and provides cover while providing a clear shot.





> Source: What does it change? *Everything*.
Click to expand...

Now I know full well you'll come squalling   about how you went on to specify about drawing your bow. Nothing in the above dealt with that. It was all about hunting skills and getting close to the game. That all happens before it's time to take the shot.

If you didn't mean that the crossbow changes "EVERYTHING", you shouldn't have written it. Your response didn't say that crossbows change one aspect of the hunt. You didn't write that crossbow hunting includes 95% (It's really higher) of the same skills as compopund hunting. You didn't go with your earlier version of 75% of the work. You wrote that crossbows change *"EVERYTHING".*

Now if this was just another example of your over generalizing and exaggerating, It's time to admit it. You threw your fit and made your challenge. Your challenge has been answered. Now what are you preparred to do?

It is extremely amusing that you feel (athough you are wrong) so offended and want proof of Doctari's claim, yet when you accuse me of lying, wordsmithing, and spinning with no support and I challenge you to back up your claims, you never do.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Source,
> 
> I know you've been busy...but when you get time to stop talking about crossbows, can we talk about fair chase? Here are the questions....
> 
> 
> You don't have to speak for pope and young. I'm not asking you to. Their rules speak for themselves. Who would you recommend that I go to if I can't get the history or rules of fair chase directly from pope and young? I would much rather get the straight scoop from pope and young then get misinterpretations from various folks that should or shouldn't be speaking for pope and young?
> 
> If the previous rules are no longer important, and all that is important is what we are doing today, then would it be correct to assume that heritage/tradition are not important, and all that matters is what we're doing in the here and now?
> 
> IF pope and young wants to pull the heritage/tradition card AND use its preeminence as THE top bowhunting to influence state determined rules (of fair chase), should its history be an open book?
> 
> So you'd advocate that the rules should periodically be reviewed and changed if necesssary/appropriate. Would you also advocate that the history of rule changing be open for review?


1


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> Surprise, surprise .... I AGREE with you.
> 
> Everyone does have the right to do or not do within the limits of the law.
> 
> 
> Here's where we disagree. I feel that the poor decisions others make reflect badly on me and on bowhunting.
> 
> The rules of fair chase are supposed to put us all on the same page. When you and people like you decide you can do whatever you want - that's where we run into trouble.
> 
> If everyone followed the rules of fair chance as well as the laws, we would be in better shape. I don't see how one could argue with that.


Happy to come back to this one Source...but first we need to agree or disagree that the rules of fair chase were either etched in stone when Moses was young, should be rewritten in sand every day, or something in between.

Please respond to my other post.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> What a bunch of empty, emotional, dramatic, illogical jibberish.
> 
> Try to follow. A country only allows its citizens to attend Jewish Synagogues (sp?). Nothing else is allowed. If people want to worship a higher being, that is the only way they are allowed to do it. Some of the people in the church believe in God and the Old Testament but they also believe in Jesus and The New Testament. They just go along, so they can attend church and at least worship God.
> 
> A group gets together and wants to be allowed to attend a new church, one that includes the New Testament. A lot of the Jewish guys don't like the idea. They are affraid a new church with a new belief system will "dilute the essence" of their "traditional" beiefs.
> 
> A wise Rabi points out that their "essence" will be strengthened because the non believers in the group will leave making them more pure. He points out that it's the quality of the believer that counts not the quantity



Here's the problem with your analogy, Twogun.

The second group in your analogy (old and new testament guys) did not take over the synagogues and proclaim their new faith as "just as Jewish." They did not refer to themselves as "Jewish". They built their own churches, and sought a new identity for themselves as "christians."

Now let's relate that to the spin you are attempting here.

You guys are not interested in forming your own church (season) nor are you intersted in forming your own identity (crossbowers.)

Rather, you want to commandeer the existing synagogue (bowseason) and corrupt its identity and ideals to conform to your own.

I think your analogy is fairly accurate, after all - just not in the way you originaaly had envisioned.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Allow me.
> 
> Now I know full well you'll come squalling   about how you went on to specify about drawing your bow. Nothing in the above dealt with that. It was all about hunting skills and getting close to the game. That all happens before it's time to take the shot.


Wrong again, twogun. Bowhunting is much more than having the hunting skills to get close to game. That is a requirement, true, but when I shoot a deer at 15 yards with a shotgun I was not bowhunting simply because I have the woodsmanship to get close.

It must be more than that. 

In addition, "getting close" is totally determined by the weapon you happen to be carrying.

No amount of spin can save you here.




twogun said:


> If you didn't mean that the crossbow changes "EVERYTHING", you shouldn't have written it. Your response didn't say that crossbows change one aspect of the hunt. You didn't write that crossbow hunting includes 95% (It's really higher) of the same skills as compopund hunting. You didn't go with your earlier version of 75% of the work. You wrote that crossbows change *"EVERYTHING".*
> 
> Now if this was just another example of your over generalizing and exaggerating, It's time to admit it. You threw your fit and made your challenge. Your challenge has been answered. Now what are you preparred to do?


Semantics are crutch of a weak arguement, twogun.
It changes many, many aspects of the hunt, how's that. 

If your definition of hunting skill doesn't include shooting, then noone will ever harvest a deer. 

You cannot ignore the differences in shooting between a bow and a crossbow - its what makes them fundamentally different, and what makes the hunting and shooting skills required to shoot deer with a bow much greater than with a crossbow.

In other words, it changes everything.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Here's the problem with your analogy, Twogun.
> 
> The second group in your analogy (old and new testament guys) did not take over the synagogues and proclaim their new faith as "just as Jewish." They did not refer to themselves as "Jewish". They built their own churches, and sought a new identity for themselves as "christians."
> 
> Now let's relate that to the spin you are attempting here.
> 
> You guys are not interested in forming your own church (season) nor are you intersted in forming your own identity (crossbowers.)
> 
> Rather, you want to commandeer the existing synagogue (bowseason) and corrupt its identity and ideals to conform to your own.
> 
> I think your analogy is fairly accurate, after all - just not in the way you originaaly had envisioned.


I don't see it that way, and think he took care of that with this quote anyway?

A group gets together and wants to be allowed to attend a *new* church, one that includes the New Testament. A lot of the Jewish guys don't like the idea. They are affraid a *new church with a new belief system* will "dilute the essence" of their "traditional" beiefs.

Having said that , though, the difference is; we don't really want a NEW anything , crossbows certainlly are not new, we intend to be included as equals in the existing season, just as EVERY other form of archery is, except for the crossbows, having failed to provide any good reasons why that shouldn't take place, it should happen... No one has proven that the crossbow is not "fair chase" nor even close, while we have proven, that IF the compound is, the crossbow has to be!

As for the "seperate seasons" thing, how about this, WE will accept what is now archery season, other bows can't hunt that period, but we'll make sure they get a "token season" either before or after our season! Any takers???

Now it's easy to see why We are not interested in that concept either, but IF one thinks it's "good enough" for us, then lead by example, it wouldn't be hard to convince the various game Departments in various states, after all those against crossbow inclusion have stated many times.........

People will gravitate to the weapon that is easiest to use and take game with;
"Lazy" gun hunters would be far more likely to use a crossbow than a compound.......

THAT alone should be more than enough to "sell" the game Depts on the whole thing.........and those "lazy" gun hunters NO doubt would back the idea, we'd just need to print a few pages from this thread, would be no problem to get their help on this "new" idea..........since some wish to do the same to us, it's only "fair", for them to get what they've said we should settle for..........

Something to 'ponder", and easily demonstrates why it's best to share and wish to have fellow archery hunters , "with" you instead of "divided" ......:cocktail:


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> You don't have to speak for pope and young. I'm not asking you to. Their rules speak for themselves. Who would you recommend that I go to if I can't get the history or rules of fair chase directly from pope and young?
> 
> I have no idea who the right person would be.
> 
> I would much rather get the straight scoop from pope and young then get misinterpretations from various folks that should or shouldn't be speaking for pope and young?
> 
> OK...good luck.
> 
> If the previous rules are no longer important, and all that is important is what we are doing today, then would it be correct to assume that heritage/tradition are not important, and all that matters is what we're doing in the here and now?
> 
> As far as I know, P&Y rules of fair chase have never changed, although they loosened their definition of a hunting bow to allow letoff >65%. I don't think its at all fair to assume that history or heritage are not important.
> 
> IF pope and young wants to pull the heritage/tradition card AND use its preeminence as THE top bowhunting to influence state determined rules (of fair chase), should its history be an open book?
> 
> Probably - but that's their call, not mine.
> 
> So you'd advocate that the rules should periodically be reviewed and changed if necesssary/appropriate. Would you also advocate that the history of rule changing be open for review?
> 
> Sure - I'd join you in advocating that.


Not much to run with there. Like I said, I cannot speak for P&Y.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> I don't see it that way, and think he took care of that with this quote anyway?
> 
> A group gets together and wants to be allowed to attend a *new* church, one that includes the New Testament. A lot of the Jewish guys don't like the idea. They are affraid a *new church with a new belief system* will "dilute the essence" of their "traditional" beiefs.


I doesn't matter what he wrote - if the analogy is to be accurate the "new church" needs to mean a "new season" . The proper analogy with respect to crossbows and bowseason is that they go into the same church with their different religion. That is obviously much less palatable. duh.



aceoky said:


> Having said that , though, the difference is; we don't really want a NEW anything , crossbows certainlly are not new, we intend to be included as equals in the existing season, just as EVERY other form of archery is, except for the crossbows, having failed to provide any good reasons why that shouldn't take place, it should happen... No one has proven that the crossbow is not "fair chase" nor even close, while we have proven, that IF the compound is, the crossbow has to be!


So in other words, you think it is a bad analogy. Woder why, when he wrote it, you claimed it was a great analogy? 

You are a piece of work, no doubt.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> July 4th, who ever said that, and I have hunted in 90 degree weather for the opener in KS and they do it all the time in TX. You must not be much of a hunter if you can’t kill your deer dress it and get it on ice before it spoils.
> 
> Seasons are set for reasons, archery already has the best of the best and the longest is the point anyonce who is a thinking person would have grasp that simple concept. tell you what though, we will accept what is now "archery season" and no other bows are allowed, we will in return give YOU a "token" season" as you propose for us...........
> 
> 
> You mean bowhunting don’t you? And probably all of us have. NOT worth the effort...
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about, every time I see him anywhere he is saying me, mine, it’s his way or you are a bigot, it’s his way or you are a racist, it’s his way or you are a jihad. And just think he is on your side.
> 
> Happy to have someone with facts and experience on our side, much better than those who have NONE of either, and can't produce facts......best you guys have is *trying* to disprove our facts and data, and you are failling in a "big way" on that
> 
> 
> 
> Ace you have flopped back and forth on this so many times it really isn’t funny any more. Bow season is not a deer herd management tool, period. And if the deer herd gets out of control then the logical then to do *is extent gun season *for a year or two. I see no problem with that at all, as long as it is temporary, to control the herd.
> 
> Another unfounded accusation that is in no way accurate.......WHAT I have always said, IS archery doesn't make a "big impact" on the herd, it IS however a management tool, IF not it would not still exist, MOST archery hunters take a majority of the harvest in antlerless deer, THAT is what most states need to be done, as long as WE do that and enough, we have a good chance of keeping the chance to do so....guns are in fact the primary her management tool, archery however does play a role and have it's place........period
> 
> NOW who wants guns in archery season?
> 
> 
> 
> That is the most outrageous thing you have said yet. But it does show everyone here that what I have said is true, you want one long season, any weapon. You cannot justify any other stance after the quote above. If you are for segregating gun hunters, ML hunters, pistol hunters, then you are saying the exact same thing we are, if we are elite and think others are step children for wanting to keep the seasons separate then so are you, unless you want one long season.
> 
> Again, 100% false and a total misrepresentation of what I said, what else would we expect from one who refuses to show any data or facts to back up their claims??? WE know why there are seperate seasons for guns and archery, we're happy with that.......YOUR spin won't change any of that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only impossible to a defeatist, or to someone who’s real agenda is to *ruin archery season*.
> 
> NOT viable then, how's that??? Not needed, NO good hunting time not already being used.....NO reason.......happy now? YES, I'm convined you would ruin archery season in a "heartbeat" before you'd be willing to share with other fellow archery hunters, it's sad too
> 
> 
> 
> Show me a person that “CAN’T” hunt with a gun, and I will show you someone that is using it as an *excuse*. There may be those that won’t use a gun, but anybody that can use a x-bow can use a gun.
> 
> You've been shown, you've been told by parents, spouses and many others, yet you continue with this absurd line of "thought"........let me break this down for you one more time
> 
> A "gun" big enough for big game(and in most states to be legal) has
> A.) RECOIL
> B.) LOUD REPORT
> C.) Muzzle Flash easily seen in low light conditions where most deer are shot....
> 
> In comparision, a crossbow is MUCH more user friendly in the "flinching department", thus YOUR theory won't stand up to any real inspections in the first place.......
> 
> 
> YOU say "they can hunt anyway", and I say, perhaps but SHOULD they?? NO they should *not* ........WHO does it help to
> A.) ruin the experience of a child for example by making them hunt with a weapon they are afraid of(or a women in fact)????
> B.)IF one is afraid of the gun, they are NOT likely to take "careful aim" being focused on fear instead of what they should be
> C.) which likely leads to wounded game, in the case of deer for example, bad PR for hunters, in the case of Bear it could turn DEADLY.....for those hunters,
> 
> CLEARLY YOUR idea, here ONLY can harm all hunting and can ONLY help the Anti-Hunters agenda.........you keep saying you're not one, and frankly I do not care any longer IF you are or not..........FACT you use their tacticts too often, and continue to say things that can ONLY help them and their agendas.........this FACT has been pointed out to you many many times by many various people in various forums, and yet you continue to do so.........HOW else can anyone take that then???
> 
> You were shown on this very thread by a girl's parent why she couldn't deer hunt with a gun, YOU decide that's an EXCUSE.......your soloution is MUCH worse than allowing her to use the crossbow which she is comforatble with, and likes to shoot(practices with often ).......YOU obviously do not care about any of that, OR the whether she enjoys the experience OR IF she makes a quick , clean and humane kill.........THAT alone tells everyone what is "what" on this......lucky for ALL of us, she is NOT your daughter, thus you do not get to make that choice, and harm us all with it
> 
> YOU "label me" as a gun hunter, then attempt to say I don't know what I'm talking about.......very strange don't you think??
> 
> FOR the record, IF that is meant to insult me, it doesn't, I am very happy with who I am, and the weapon I happen to be hunting with won't change that , nor any "label" given by someone with such a narrow view of things.....I am a bowhunter, I am a centerfire hunter, I am a ML, hunter IN Other Words......... I AM a Hunter! I use different weapons in thier legal season, and there is nothing wrong with that.......and btw , I've taken many more deer with a bow than any gun.....fwiw....pretty hard to place me in any one category.......but nice try anyway
> 
> 
> 
> You don’t know much about hunting if this is your position. It is not the sound of gun fire that spooks deer, it is the amount of people traipsing through the woods. I have seen deer on many of occasions completely ignore gun fire, and if you have hunted very much you would have to. It is the amount of people in the woods that make deer spooky, and that is what happens when you *artificially* raise the number of people in the woods during bow season.
> 
> THERE IT IS FOLKS! THE REAL REASON he's against inclusion, his fear too many hunters will spook HIS deer!!
> 
> BTW the numbes are not "artificially" raised by allowing another archery weapon in archery season, IF that were true then they already are with the compound bow.....MOST of those hunters would be very insulted by your saying such things about them......I'm not surprised though, your sides "MO" is to insult other hunters at every given opportunity.......sad
> 
> 
> 
> A lie, we want it for anybody that wants to bow hunt.
> 
> Good so do we! Glad that's settled! And we will have them doing it with crossbows along with the other bows.....and everyone will then be happy!
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, how many lies are you going to tell in one post, we post from the position that it will affect us and all the rest of the bow hunters, especially the ones on public ground that will have to deal with the spooky deer, see above.
> 
> AGAIN.......admitting that sharing a renewable resource with other archery hunters will make HIS hunting harder(in his view, NO evidence exists to support that claim, either, just as none has been shown to support any of his other claims........BUT we KNOW what the "real issue" is.........and it's not "preserving bowhunting" it keeping ARCHERY HUNTER NUMBERS LOW!
> Twice he's said so himself right HERE!! THAT is not good for archery either......ONLY good for those who want to keep things the way they are for their own benefit!!
> 
> Don't like being called "selfish"? Then don't be selfish, simple really
> 
> 
> 
> We know where you guys are posting from, it’s greed, it’s greed for bow season, its greed for money. And envy, you envy the early season, you envy the fact that most bowhunters are more dedicated then you, you envy the respect shown to bowhunters.
> 
> What money and where is it coming from, and PLEASE show me how this will get me some of it, I have NO clue about what you're talking about, and I doubt you do either......I don't envy it, I am a part of it.....YOU know this, why do you insist on "Twisting" everything, when you KNOW it's not true???
> 
> I have "respect" shown for me every time I shoot either a gun or a bow.........NO SALE
> 
> And by the way, why is it that an old man should have to give up hunting just because you say he should? What happen to your extended family, what happen to unity, what happen to his worth? You are a hypocrite, every thing you have accused us of you have done yourself, yet you post threads like the one above proclaiming your superior moral worth.
> 
> So far from the truth to not deserve an answer......and won't even get one today! Who IS the hypocrite here? WE all know.......and it's so funny, YOU make a "big deal" that I refuse to answer your stupid question then accuse me of , and then attack an answer I never even posted!! Pathetic
> 
> 
> 
> To me you sound like a televangelist spouting how righteous they are while bilking little old ladies out of their last dime.
> 
> Again with this non-existant money claim....sad really sad, lucky for me, I don't care one iota what your opinion of me is......I do have to wonder though, how it helps your agenda to always attack, insult and try to beliittle other hunters in every single post you make......
> 
> If you really want to unite, and are really concerned about the antis, then stop dividing hunters with your x-bow agenda. Work for your own season, or some sort of lasting compromise, not one step now and the rest later.


I will NOT stop fighting for inclusion, it's the same thing the compound bow people did, it's proven that it ended up being good for archery hunting as this will be.......

IF YOU want to stop the division, accept the FACT.........it's not those asking for inclusion and to join something they wish to be a part of.....

....it's YOU and yours who for *selfish reasons *refuse to *share, a renewable resource that you don't own *and continue to insult other hunters every chance they get to try to keep other hunters out of "*their season" and "their woods".*.........it's a much ours as it is yous...........deal with that, accept it, openly accept other *fellow hunters* into the season and woods with you...........stop the division and unite with your fellow hunters........simple really

IT's absurd for you or anyone to blame us for division just for asking for another archery weapon being included in an open archery season! You have been shown countless times, that IS how it's done, it's how the season first began, it's how the compound became legal, and it's how the crossbow will as well........

YOU attempt to blame us for only doing what started this whole thing, and all the while state you're defending "tradtion" (we already know it is you don't want to share, you've admitted it enough times twice in this post alone).........but neglect to realize or admit, this IS tradtion! The same tradtion that has got archery hunting to where it is; IF something stops growing the next ultimate step is death..........perhaps that IS what you are really after???

It doesn't matter there are more than enough of us, to prove what is "good" for bowhunting, and this is inclusion....and there are not enough selfish hunters(thankfully) to stop that ........which is in fact good for all of us.......and bowhunting


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I doesn't matter what he wrote - if the analogy is to be accurate the "new church" needs to mean a "new season" . The proper analogy with respect to crossbows and bowseason is that they go into the same church with their different religion. That is obviously much less palatable. duh.
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, you think it is a bad analogy. Woder why, when he wrote it, you claimed it was a great analogy?
> 
> I still think it was a great analogy! YOU don't speak for me(in fact you don't speak well enough for yourself or your agenda IMHO), please refrain from trying to speak for me in the future? Thank you!
> 
> You are a piece of work, no doubt.


WOW! Coming from you that must be a huge compliment........thanks, I guess!:cocktail:


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Here's the problem with your analogy, Twogun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second group in your analogy (old and new testament guys) did not take over the synagogues and proclaim their new faith as "just as Jewish." They did not refer to themselves as "Jewish". They built their own churches, and sought a new identity for themselves as "christians."
> 
> 
> 
> Now let's relate that to the spin you are attempting here.
> 
> You guys are not interested in forming your own church (season) nor are you intersted in forming your own identity (crossbowers.)
> 
> Rather, you want to commandeer the existing synagogue (bowseason) and corrupt its identity and ideals to conform to your own.
> 
> I think your analogy is fairly accurate, after all - just not in the way you originaaly had envisioned.
Click to expand...

Nice try but wrong. The intent of the analogy was to illustrate the asisnine nature of your "dilute the essence of bowseason." I quoted you and bolded that portion of your quote to show emphasis. I notice you didn't address that aspect at all. You dodged the main point and went off on another illogical, emotional, dramatic tangent of commandeering and corupting. Noone is trying to take anything away from your church source. You and yours are still free to do whatever you want.

In the analogy the "country" is the season. The "country" only allows one "religion" or type of bow. ANother religion, new type of bow which has the same foundation as the original, wants to participate in the season, the "country", you know the publicly owned resource that is supposed to be managed for the public use.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*

*You said*

*Surprise, surprise .... I AGREE with you.

Everyone does have the right to do or not do within the limits of the law.*

Okay

*
I feel that the poor decisions others make reflect badly on me and on bowhunting.*

Define others. Who are you talking about?

And then, are you talking about poor decisions that were made inside of the law? If so then why don't we just fix the law since its all that obvious.

If someone makes poor decisions outside of the law.....then doesn't it make
sense that they broke the law and should be punished accordingly?

Please elaborate. 

*The rules of fair chase are supposed to put us all on the same page. *

Just to be clear, they are to define the relationship between man and prey.
The rules of fair chase say nothing about anything relative to fairness between men. True? 

P&Y rules of fair chase are supposed to put every member of Pope & Young on the same page. The Pope and Young rules of fair chase do not extend to members outside of Pope and Young. How can members, let alone non-members, be expected to follow the rules, even to the extent of 'spirit of the rule' if they don't know what it is?

e.g. rule 8
Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable. 

The hunting laws that define equipment usage, hunting hours, baiting etc. etc. are supposed to embody both fair chase and fairness between hunters. Who can argue with the statement that 'laws should be fair.'

Is it Pope & Youngs intent to define fairness between hunters in its definition of Fair chase? If so why is it not explicitly stated? 

*When you and people like you decide you can do whatever you want - that's where we run into trouble.*

Are you suggesting that he should hold himself to a higher standard than the laws or are you suggesting that he is breaking laws? 

*"If everyone followed the rules of fair chance as well as the laws, we would be in better shape. I don't see how one could argue with that."*

Who's rules of fair chase are you referring to? P&Y's?
By extension, If we all followed the rules of fair chase while crossbow hunting or slug hunting, we'd also be better off. True?

The disagreement that I have is that I don't know all of the rules.

see rule #8 I don't know who's rules of fair chase I should be following.
Should it be B&C or P&Y or both? 


Here's the biggee.
Should the rules of fair chase include equipment selection?

Where should I look for guidance if the type of weapon that I'm hunting with affects the rules of fair chase? There is no national club to define the rules of fair chase for bowhunters.

Should there be a separate crossbow organization that accepts and modifies P&Y's rules of fair chase? Would we all be better off? If so which rules should they accept?

Maybe you can help the crossbow folks do the right things.


----------



## twogun

Source, 

Let's review.

I wrote:



> What about the following does using a crossbow change?



I'll simplify it for you:



> 1. "no matter how powerful your bow, you still have to get almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it. Most deer shot with a bow are within 20 yards of the hunter.


Using a crossbow doesn't change this. I have my personal experience, the experience of my friends and family, and information gathered from participating on internet forums to back me up. It's far from conclusive, but it's more than you've got, a guess. At one time there were identical discussions, maximum range, going on at AT and at Excalibur. The responses were similar but in general the compounders were willing to stretch things a bit farther. I've quoted both discussions in these debates at least twice before. You've seen them.

At one time Willie averaged the shot distances of the animals taken in the Excalibur trophy room. I don't remember the exact distance but it was less than 30 yards and may have been less than 20.

Crossbows are a close range weapon. In 20 years, I've killed one deer at 25 yards, and all the rest have been 20 or closer.



> 2. And in order for you to get a good shot, the deer, a bundle of acute senses, can't be aware of your presence.


Crossbow hunters still have to be alert and able to get a good shot. They have to sit still. They still have to be very calculated with all their movements, when to stand, when to sit, when to put your bow down, when to pick it up, how often to turn your head and how slowly, when and how to take a bite of a sandwich or get a drink, when and how quickly to pick up your call, etc, etc, etc.. They still have to get into position for a shot. They still have to raise their bow. 

Guess what. Deer can sneak in on a crossbow hunter undetected. They can still bust a crossbow hunter before the hunter sees them.

I recognise that drawing a compound adds an ellement that the crossbow doesn't require. It does change one part of this individual point but not all of it.

Crossbow hunters still have to defeat the "bundle of acute senses" in order to "get a good shot."



> 3. To keep deer from seeing, smelling or hearing them, archery deer hunters often daub paint on their faces, don camouflage clothes, cover their human scent with animal urine and other natural odors and sit still as sphinxes for hours on end.


Crossbows don't change this a bit.



> 4. bowhunting requires planning


Crossbows don't change this a bit.



> 5. scouting


Nope no change here either.



> 6. enough woods-craft to find deer travel routes


None here



> 7. bedding areas


Nor here.



> 8. Then the hunter has to plan an ambush that takes into account wind direction and provides cover while providing a clear shot


And finally, no change here.

It is not a matter of simple semantics. That is another of your excuses you use when you can't make a valid point. You wrote that crossbows change "EVERYTHING", that means all of the above. Making that claim suggests that there is something irrationally special, "magical", about using a crossbow.

You exaggerated and misrepresented again. Doctari called you on it. Be a man and admit it.


----------



## thesource

Twogun, your arguing semantics and pestering for an apology when none is due is what I would expect from such a delicate, emotional flower.

Try to pay attention this time so we will not need to go through it a 3rd time. Since I;ve already made your church analogy look silly, I'm a tad surprised you want more, but whatever...



twogun said:


> Source,
> I'll simplify it for you:
> _
> Quote:
> 1. "no matter how powerful your bow, you still have to get almost unnaturally close to a deer to use it. Most deer shot with a bow are within 20 yards of the hunter. _
> 
> 
> 
> Using a crossbow doesn't change this.
> At one time Willie averaged the shot distances of the animals taken in the Excalibur trophy room. I don't remember the exact distance but it was less than 30 yards and may have been less than 20.
> Crossbows are a close range weapon. In 20 years, I've killed one deer at 25 yards, and all the rest have been 20 or closer.



I simply don't believe you. Its as simple as that. Willie, who you reference above, constantly says the crossbow range is 40 yards. He has shot deer in excess of that at least once. I have seen numerous posts reporting longer crossbow kills including one at 63 yards.

You can argue all you want, say that compounds have equivalent range all you want .... it just doesn't matter.

A crossbows range is farther than 20 yards, and in the hands of typical hunters, farther with a crossbow than a compound. Certainly you would not argue that it is farther than trad gear.



twogun said:


> Crossbow hunters still have to be alert and able to get a good shot. They have to sit still. They still have to be very calculated with all their movements, when to stand, when to sit, when to put your bow down, when to pick it up, how often to turn your head and how slowly, when and how to take a bite of a sandwich or get a drink, when and how quickly to pick up your call, etc, etc, etc.. They still have to get into position for a shot. They still have to raise their bow .


Yes, I agree they have to do all that. Then they are done and their bolt is away, right when bowhunters must begin their tasks of drawing, anchoring, aiming, and releasing. Your work is done, and a bowhunters who has put in the equivalent amount of effort up until now is just starting his hardest work with the deer right there at "unnaturally close range."

The comparison is ludicrous. You can see a buck at 60 yards, set up your crossbow based on his path well ahead of a close encounter and not have to move again until you pull a trigger. That is not an option for a bowhunter.







twogun said:


> Crossbow hunters still have to defeat the "bundle of acute senses" in order to "get a good shot." _Quote:
> 3. To keep deer from seeing, smelling or hearing them, archery deer hunters often daub paint on their faces, don camouflage clothes, cover their human scent with animal urine and other natural odors and sit still as sphinxes for hours on end. _
> 
> Crossbows don't change this a bit.


Like I said, bull. You have an advantage to keep deer from seeing and hearing you since you do not have to draw in the presence. To say otherwise is a lie, plain and simple.


I'll admit this - your chapped cause I jammed your lame attempt to equalibrate crossbows with bowhunting back down the old piehole. I'm still laughing about it. Keep serving up those hanging curveballs - I love it.:wink:


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said*
> 
> *Surprise, surprise .... I AGREE with you.
> 
> Everyone does have the right to do or not do within the limits of the law.*
> 
> Okay
> 
> *
> I feel that the poor decisions others make reflect badly on me and on bowhunting.*
> 
> Define others. Who are you talking about?
> 
> And then, are you talking about poor decisions that were made inside of the law? If so then why don't we just fix the law since its all that obvious.
> 
> If someone makes poor decisions outside of the law.....then doesn't it make
> sense that they broke the law and should be punished accordingly?
> 
> Please elaborate.


Other hunters who make poor decisions.

Bad shot angles. Too long a yardage. Don't follow up on wounded deer. Its a long list of items that cannot be legislated.

In other words, those who prove through their actions they do not have respect for the deer they are hunting. There is no law that you must respect the deer you hunt, but it is an essential part of fair chase. It is all too often ignored, and I, for one, think that this will be the greatest threat to our hunting overall. As long as the non-hunting majority agree that we hunt with respect and honor, they will continue to support hunting. As soon as they feel that hunting is just about killing animals for the fun of it, they will withdraw their support. They want hunters to "play fair", part of which is fair chase. This is true regardless of the weapon or the season, but it should be clear that there would be certain implications based on weapons.

I believe you are asking about the more general philosophy at this point, so we'll stay with that.

And yes to the final question. Lawbreakers should be prosecuted.

I am specifically referring to those who would do things that are legal that might still be considered unethical.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> I simply don't believe you. Its as simple as that. Willie, who you reference above, constantly says the crossbow range is 40 yards. He has shot deer in excess of that at least once. I have seen numerous posts reporting longer crossbow kills including one at 63 yards.
> 
> You can argue all you want, say that compounds have equivalent range all you want .... it just doesn't matter.
> 
> A crossbows range is farther than 20 yards, and in the hands of typical hunters, farther with a crossbow than a compound. Certainly you would not argue that it is farther than trad gear.


*LMAO...*

You do not know much about archery do you? It has been stated by every crossbow manufacturer that the *MAXIMUM* range anyone should shoot at a deer is 40 yards.

In the meantime I have *NEVER* seen *ANY* vertical archery company ever try to put a limit on how far anyone should shoot at a deer with their bow.

Yes, twogun is correct. I ran an average of yardages of deer killed that was posted on the Excalibur website and it was 21 1/2 yards.

As for your "63 yards", I have seen NUMEROUS vertical archers post on here and other sites about shooting and making such shots.

I witnessed a compound shooter kill a mule deer doe at 90+ yards. The doe was facing him at the time. He pinwheeled her with the second shot.

I've heard of and have seen quite a few deer killed at 50 yards with a compound.

Out west bowhunters think a 40 yard shot is a *GIMMEE..*

The more you talk the less I think you know about archery.



> The comparison is ludicrous. You can see a buck at 60 yards, set up your crossbow based on his path well ahead of a close encounter and not have to move again until you pull a trigger. That is not an option for a bowhunter.


The same with a bowhunter shooting a high let off bow. Mike Beatty held his 85% let off for a full three minutes (not moving a muscle) as he waited until that world record (with an asterisk) non-typical buck got into his shooting lane.

How about these new Double Bull ground blinds with the shoot through curtains? The deer doesn't have a clue you are there, no matter what gyrations that you go through hoisting back that bow, until the arrow is hitting him. Should we ban those too? Hecky darn... let's ban treestands too..Maybe camo... cover scents...

Longbows and loincloths on the ground only...

You're too funny...

Keep beating that dead horse - "you don't have to draw in the presence of game" it is getting more and more hilarious.


----------



## twogun

> thesource said:
> 
> 
> 
> Twogun, your arguing semantics and pestering for an apology when none is due is what I would expect from such a delicate, emotional flower.
> 
> 
> 
> I would never expect an apology from a "guy" like you. It's not in you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try to pay attention this time so we will not need to go through it a 3rd time. Since I;ve already made your church analogy look silly, I'm a tad surprised you want more, but whatever...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again with the empty unsupportable claims. I explained the intent of the analogy further and stressed the intended point. You have again failled to address it. You have dodged the meat of the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I simply don't believe you. Its as simple as that. Willie, who you reference above, constantly says the crossbow range is 40 yards. He has shot deer in excess of that at least once. I have seen numerous posts reporting longer crossbow kills including one at 63 yards.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't believe me? I have my own personal experience. What do you have? A guess? Here are the quotes again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excalibur crossbow forum:
> 
> 
> I can shoot 40 yards and pratice it,but would really like 30 yards and under to feel really good about takeing the shot.
> 
> 30 yards is ok. At 50 yards you MAY kill the animal, but the risk of wounding is too high
> 
> I consider anything over 30 yards low odds
> 
> i agree my max range is 40 yds on elk 30
> 
> 40 yards is limit.
> Don't want to have a wounded animal
> 
> I've been practicing with my ExoMax at up to 40 yards but I don't think I would feel comfortable taking a shot at that distance or beyond
> 
> I have my ExoMAX grouping out to 60 yards and I get tight groups at that distance. If the deer is past that 40 yard marker he walks
> 
> It is my belief that heavier bows are for heavier game, not for longer ranges
> 
> I target practice out to 50, but would not attempt a hunting shot over 30 or 35 on game.
> 
> Keep the shots close. The closer, the larger the margin for error
> 
> The whole idea of archery is getting close, isn't it.
> 
> 25 yards is my limit
> 
> I haven't taken one over 25 yards
> 
> I wouldn't try beyond about 20 yards at an alert one
> 
> I've never actually taken a shot at a deer past 25 yard with my xbow or one of my compounds. I'd probably would go to 30 -32 yd for an unalert deer
> 
> I do practice out to 30 yards and would not hesitate to shoot that far, but anything over that and it would walk or hopefully come in closer.
> 
> I prefer shooting a 20-30 yard shot, but would try a 40 yard shot on an unalert buck providing there's no chance of hitting anything along the way.
> 
> With the Vixen, my limit is 25 yards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archery Talk Forum:
> 
> 65 yards
> guys get a new mathews, then 50 yards wont be such a hard shot, i can hit a softball at 50 yards almost every time..
> I shoot competently out to around 45 yards
> 
> I practice out to 70 yards. I will take a shot at 50 if i feel conditions are right
> 
> I move around and shoot it from different angles out to 60 - 65 (measured with range finder
> 
> I've practiced at 70 yards before, but id only shoot something to 50 yards on a good day.
> 
> I am good at it. I suppose I can hit a softball too at 50 yards
> 
> The first Buck I ever shot with a bow was 68yd's
> 
> I shoot 50 yrds
> 
> I used to be comfortable out to 50
> 
> I am sighted in out to 60 yards and I can keep all my shots in the kill zone.
> 
> With field tips Iam comfortable out to 60 yrds and with bh I am comfortable out to 50.
> 
> Routinely practice at 50 yards
> 
> i practice out to 50 yards
> 
> I regularly practice out to 60 and can keep em in a 6" circle at that range.
> 
> don't mean this to sound like i'm bragging but i can drop my treebark/125 thunderhead in at 50 yards calm to slight breeze within 1/2 of my +
> would i take that shot in the field if i had too??HELL YA
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crossbows range is farther than 20 yards,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And so is a compounds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and in the hands of typical hunters, farther with a crossbow than a compound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, tell me what kind of bow the "typical" crossbow hunter carries. Explain to me what the typical shot distance is for crossbow hunters. How many "typical" crossbow hunters do you know? You are guessing and stating it as conclusive fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The comparison is ludicrous. You can see a buck at 60 yards, set up your crossbow based on his path well ahead of a close encounter and not have to move again until you pull a trigger. That is not an option for a bowhunter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So the crossbow gives the hunter the "MAGICAL" ability to know where a buck at 60 yards is going to walk? Mine must be broken. Good job proving Doctari's point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, bull. You have an advantage to keep deer from seeing and hearing you since you do not have to draw in the presence. To say otherwise is a lie, plain and simple.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Reread my post. I acknowlege that drawing a compound presents a challenge that a crossbow hunter doesn't have to deal with. The portion of the quote that you've got your panties in a twist over mentions nothing about drawing the bow. You're trying to insert that portion to try to save face. I asked FReeRange which of what I quoted a crossbow hunter didn't have to do. Drawing was not one of those things. Pay attention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll admit this - your chapped cause I jammed your lame attempt to equalibrate crossbows with bowhunting back down the old piehole. I'm still laughing about it. Keep serving up those hanging curveballs - I love it.:wink
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You've done nothing but dodge and weave and huff and puff.
Click to expand...


----------



## willie

*My "personal experience" hunting with a crossbow…*


*Deer..*

1) Buck at 42 yards - thought he was 40 yards

2) Buck at 30 yards. – knew he was 30 yards 

3) Doe at 17 yards – knew she was at 17 yards

4) Buck at 12 yards – knew he was 12 yards

5) Buck at 10 yards – knew he was 10 yards

6) Doe at 9 yards – knew she was at 9 yards

7) Buck at 7 yards – knew he was 7 yards

Yardage average of 7 kills – 17.86 yards


*Turkeys....*

1) Gobbler at 15 yards - knew he was 15 yards

2) gobbler at 13 yards - knew he was 13 yards

Yardage average of 2 kills – 14 yards


Those are *ALL ARCHERY RANGE KILLS…*


Go back to your " drawing in the presence of game" ploy. This "crossbows have further range" dog doesn't hunt.

Of course neither does that one.....


----------



## willie

".....huff and puff....

I LIKE IT!!

Thesource of HUFF AND PUFF...

Or we could just shorten it to *HuffNPuff*


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Source

Thanks for answering some of my questions. You missed a few of the hard one.

+++++++++++++
_
I said
And then, are you talking about poor decisions that were made inside of the law? _


Why don't you just say yes...making poor decisions inside the law.

_I said
If so then why don't we just fix the law since its all that obvious._

Well?

_I said
The rules of fair chase say nothing about anything relative to fairness between men. True? _

You said nothing...
Is it true? Do they or don't they refer to fairness between men?

_I said
How can members, let alone non-members, be expected to follow the rules, even to the extent of 'spirit of the rule' if they don't know what it is?_

?

_I said
Is it Pope & Youngs intent to define fairness between hunters in its definition of Fair chase? If so why is it not explicitly stated? _

?

_I said
Are you suggesting that he should hold himself to a higher standard than the laws or are you suggesting that he is breaking laws? _

You are saying that people should hold themselves to a higher standard then the law. You didn't accuse anyone of breaking laws. 

_I said
Who's rules of fair chase are you referring to? P&Y's?_

You didn't say.

_I said
see rule #8 I don't know who's rules of fair chase I should be following.
Should it be B&C or P&Y or both? _

_I said
Here's the biggee.
Should the rules of fair chase include equipment selection?_

You didn't answer

_I said
Where should I look for guidance if the type of weapon that I'm hunting with affects the rules of fair chase?_ 

You didn't say.

_I said
Should there be a separate crossbow organization that accepts and modifies P&Y's rules of fair chase? Would we all be better off? If so which rules should they accept?_

+++++++++++++

You said

*In other words, those who prove through their actions they do not have respect for the deer they are hunting. There is no law that you must respect the deer you hunt, but it is an essential part of fair chase. It is all too often ignored, and I, for one, think that this will be the greatest threat to our hunting overall. * 

I'll agree.

*You said
As long as the non-hunting majority agree that we hunt with respect and honor, they will continue to support hunting. As soon as they feel that hunting is just about killing animals for the fun of it, they will withdraw their support.* 

I'll agree


*You said
They want hunters to "play fair", part of which is fair chase. * 

Here we go again with this intermixing of fair competition between hunters and fairness to the deer. What are you talking about? Day 1 vs. day 15. 
a weapon is either fair or unfair to the deer. period.

*You said
This is true regardless of the weapon or the season, *

agreed

*You said
but it should be clear that there would be certain implications based on weapons.*

And how do those implications tie back to the general public and fair chase...the man-deer kind? Please explain.

I believe you are asking about the more general philosophy at this point, so we'll stay with that.

*You said
And yes to the final question. Lawbreakers should be prosecuted.*

I'm glad that we agree on that

*You said
I am specifically referring to those who would do things that are legal that might still be considered unethical.*

Let's get back to my original point of fixing the laws so that unethical actions are defined as illegal. Why don't we just do that, so that every hunter has EXACTLY one place to look to know what actions reflect ethical behavior?

Are you a member of Pope and Young?


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> ".....huff and puff....
> 
> I LIKE IT!!
> 
> Thesource of HUFF AND PUFF...
> 
> Or we could just shorten it to *HuffNPuff*


I already call JimC HuffnPuff....you crossbow guys try to steal everything, dontcha?


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Source
> 
> Thanks for answering some of my questions. You missed a few of the hard one.
> 
> +++++++++++++
> _
> I said
> And then, are you talking about poor decisions that were made inside of the law? _
> 
> 
> Why don't you just say yes...making poor decisions inside the law.


I assumed it was a given based on the context of my reply.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> If so then why don't we just fix the law since its all that obvious._
> 
> Well?


Why bother making laws that are unenforceable? We could all agree that a 16yd neck shot is a poor decision, has a high probability for wounding instead of killing, has been lectured and advised against in every bowhunters' safety class, and should be regarded by most as an unethical shot....yet people still take them. You could pass a law, but it wouldn't stop those who would take them from taking them.

Rather, it is the philosophy of fair chase, and the respect we are expected to have for our quarry, that prevents ethical hunters from taking this shot. 




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> The rules of fair chase say nothing about anything relative to fairness between men. True? _
> 
> You said nothing...
> Is it true? Do they or don't they refer to fairness between men?


True. 



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> How can members, let alone non-members, be expected to follow the rules, even to the extent of 'spirit of the rule' if they don't know what it is?_
> ?


I think the spirit of the rules is understandable with just a little thought.

It comes down to respect for your quarry, and shunning anything that would give an unfair or improper advantage. 




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Is it Pope & Youngs intent to define fairness between hunters in its definition of Fair chase? If so why is it not explicitly stated? _


Asked and answered. But on the other hand, if one hunter has an advantage, it possibly begins an arms race, so to speak, towards "unfair and improper." 



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Are you suggesting that he should hold himself to a higher standard than the laws or are you suggesting that he is breaking laws? _
> 
> You are saying that people should hold themselves to a higher standard then the law. You didn't accuse anyone of breaking laws.


Yes - I didn't accuse him of breaking laws. Its obvious that some people do break the law, too.
I am suggesting that hunters should hold themselves to higher standards than the laws, particularly if fair chase is being violated - think lit sight pins, for example. They are legal in some states, but violate fair chase everywhere.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Who's rules of fair chase are you referring to? P&Y's?_
> 
> You didn't say.


You've seen my list .... If you are a bowhunter, its P&Y plus your own.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> see rule #8 I don't know who's rules of fair chase I should be following.
> Should it be B&C or P&Y or both? _


Both if you are bowhunting, plus your own. Personally, my definition of fair chase is a fair bit stricter than P&Y.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Here's the biggee.
> Should the rules of fair chase include equipment selection?_
> 
> You didn't answer
> 
> _I said
> Where should I look for guidance if the type of weapon that I'm hunting with affects the rules of fair chase?_
> 
> You didn't say.


Absolutely, and P&Y rules do limit equipment to some extent.

Within, first and foremost. You should have an understanding of what you feel is proper or improper. 



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Should there be a separate crossbow organization that accepts and modifies P&Y's rules of fair chase? Would we all be better off? If so which rules should they accept?_


I really don't care what crossbow organizations do. Its my personal feeling that crossbows are not fair chase in bowseason, anyway, so I guess you are asking the wrong guy.

If I take a 10,000 foot view of crossbow hunters as a group - I absolutely think it would be wise for crossbow hunters to have a primier org like P&Y to shape and refine the image of crossbow hunting. Comprehensive rules of fairchase might go a long way to help that.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> They want hunters to "play fair", part of which is fair chase. *
> 
> Here we go again with this intermixing of fair competition between hunters and fairness to the deer. What are you talking about? Day 1 vs. day 15.
> a weapon is either fair or unfair to the deer. period.


Sorry - but I disagree. If I were allowed to use a shotgun during bowseason and given unlimited tags, but noone else was, I could kill more deer than we have fingers and toes put together.

Give me the same weapon during gun season, and that number drops to only a handful.

I think its pretty clear that "when" is as important to fair chase, as is "with what"



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> but it should be clear that there would be certain implications based on weapons.*
> 
> And how do those implications tie back to the general public and fair chase...the man-deer kind? Please explain.


See above.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> I am specifically referring to those who would do things that are legal that might still be considered unethical.*
> 
> Let's get back to my original point of fixing the laws so that unethical actions are defined as illegal. Why don't we just do that, so that every hunter has EXACTLY one place to look to know what actions reflect ethical behavior?.


I think I have fully explained that in this post.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Are you a member of Pope and Young?


I don't see why that should make a difference either way.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

_I said
How can members, let alone non-members, be expected to follow the rules, even to the extent of 'spirit of the rule' if they don't know what it is?_

*You said
I think the spirit of the rules is understandable with just a little thought.

It comes down to respect for your quarry, and shunning anything that would give an unfair or improper advantage. *

Then there is no need for any rules because everyone should intuitively "get" all of them, if they understand and operate in the spirit of the rules.

_I said
Here we go again with this intermixing of fair competition between hunters and fairness to the deer..._

*You said
Sorry - but I disagree. If I were allowed to use a shotgun during bowseason and given unlimited tags, but noone else was, I could kill more deer than we have fingers and toes put together.

Give me the same weapon during gun season, and that number drops to only a handful.*

I'll agree that you see more deer during bow season. The quantity of deer you see however is irrelevant to the weapon that is used regarding fairness between man and deer. A weapon used against a deer is either fair or unfair. Its that simple. You complicate the whole matter with this fairness between hunters issue.

_I said
Are you a member of Pope and Young? _

*You said
I don't see why that should make a difference either way.*

I'll agree. The use of their rules to define public law should be limited to the logic that they represent. While they hold themselves up as _the_ quintessential bowhunting organization in the world, their impact should be limited to the logic that they represent. The long/recurve/self bow proponents of the PBS could as easily suggest that compound bowhunters are unethical during bowseason. I do believe that some do. They themselves admit that they have increased their distance from mainstream bowhunters.
They admit that they need to do something to get back into mainstream to keep from becoming irrelevant.

What is clearly wrong is the effort amongst P&Y and its supports to create an emotional distance between the public, bowhunters, and crossbow advocates.

"It is bitterly disappointing to realize that we may have to spend large portions of our individual and collective resources to defeat those that we had actually expected to be leaders in protecting our sport and heritage."

Yep....sport....they said it...not me.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Ethical considerations extend beyond crossbows, as does my point.
> 
> If you dilute the essence of bowhunting enough, it will not be worth saving, and I want to save it.
> 
> Think about it a minute before you fire back another whimpering and sarcastic reply, aceoky.



BS-what I use to hunt with in terms of bows doesn't dilute your hunting experience.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I already call JimC HuffnPuff....you crossbow guys try to steal everything, dontcha?



what a moronic comment. stealing means taking something from YOU. tell me exactly what we are stealing from you. Just because you have some sort of phobia is not taking from you


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> ".....huff and puff....
> 
> I LIKE IT!!
> 
> Thesource of HUFF AND PUFF...
> 
> Or we could just shorten it to *HuffNPuff*



Huff the manic Banner lived by the sea.?


----------



## willie

Well Mr. HuffNPuff,

What have you got to say about these "ranges" of crossbows and compounds?


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> How can members, let alone non-members, be expected to follow the rules, even to the extent of 'spirit of the rule' if they don't know what it is?_
> 
> *You said
> I think the spirit of the rules is understandable with just a little thought.
> 
> It comes down to respect for your quarry, and shunning anything that would give an unfair or improper advantage. *
> 
> Then there is no need for any rules because everyone should intuitively "get" all of them, if they understand and operate in the spirit of the rules.


Sadly, many do not "get" it. I think you do, but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure you did, before you went to the crossbow.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Here we go again with this intermixing of fair competition between hunters and fairness to the deer..._
> 
> *You said
> Sorry - but I disagree. If I were allowed to use a shotgun during bowseason and given unlimited tags, but noone else was, I could kill more deer than we have fingers and toes put together.
> 
> Give me the same weapon during gun season, and that number drops to only a handful.*
> 
> I'll agree that you see more deer during bow season. The quantity of deer you see however is irrelevant to the weapon that is used regarding fairness between man and deer. A weapon used against a deer is either fair or unfair. Its that simple. You complicate the whole matter with this fairness between hunters issue.


Sorry - I disagree. I believe a weapon that is fair in one season would be unfair in another. We'll have to agree to disagree.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> _I said
> Are you a member of Pope and Young? _
> 
> *You said
> I don't see why that should make a difference either way.*
> 
> I'll agree. The use of their rules to define public law should be limited to the logic that they represent. While they hold themselves up as _the_ quintessential bowhunting organization in the world, their impact should be limited to the logic that they represent. The long/recurve/self bow proponents of the PBS could as easily suggest that compound bowhunters are unethical during bowseason. I do believe that some do. They themselves admit that they have increased their distance from mainstream bowhunters.
> They admit that they need to do something to get back into mainstream to keep from becoming irrelevant.
> 
> What is clearly wrong is the effort amongst P&Y and its supports to create an emotional distance between the public, bowhunters, and crossbow advocates.
> 
> "It is bitterly disappointing to realize that we may have to spend large portions of our individual and collective resources to defeat those that we had actually expected to be leaders in protecting our sport and heritage."
> 
> Yep....sport....they said it...not me.


That quote was directed at the ATA. They SHOULD have been leaders with regards to protecting bowhunting...it is, after all, where their bread has always been buttered. ATA sees additional market and additional profit from crossbows. They have made a decision to try and tap that market, although if you read their wording closely you've seen they are not saying they endorse crossbows in all archery seasons....they endorse crossbow hunting where states allow it.

ATA is trying to hedgie its bets.

The truth is, P&Y remains THE quintessential bowhunting organization. Crossbows are not considered to be hunting bows, and are therfore not fair chase in archery seasons. State by state, decisions may be made to allow crossbows into the bowseason. That does NOT mean they belong there...it means that state has decided to put them there.


----------



## Jim C

Poop and Dung is the quintessential greed based organization. Trying to stay relevant they make hysterical claims that Crossbows are the greatest threat to bowhunting when in reality, crossbows are the greatest threat to Poop and Dung remaining relevant


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> The truth is, P&Y remains THE quintessential bowhunting organization. Crossbows are not considered to be hunting bows, and are therfore not fair chase in archery seasons.


And two years ago a more than 65% let off was not a "hunting bow" in their eyes and "therfore not fair chase in archery seasons."

So is certain archery equipment just fair chase when they decide it is?


.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> crossbows are the greatest threat to Poop and Dung remaining relevant


Assuming you mean P&Y, then you are probably correct.

Crossbows ARE the greatest threat to Pope and Young remaining relevant.

Are you proud of the fact that you want to drive P&Y into irrelevancy?


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> And two years ago a more than 65% let off was not a "hunting bow" in their eyes and "therfore not fair chase in archery seasons."
> 
> So is certain archery equipment just fair chase when they decide it is?
> 
> 
> .


In ten years, Poop and Dung will recognize crossbows or it will be even more irrelevant than say the compton cultists


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> And two years ago a more than 65% let off was not a "hunting bow" in their eyes and "therfore not fair chase in archery seasons."
> 
> So is certain archery equipment just fair chase when they decide it is?
> 
> 
> .


LOL - that is the beauty of being the "premier" and "quintessential" bowhunting organization.

Its the Golden Rule. He who owns the gold, rules.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> In ten years, Poop and Dung will recognize crossbows or it will be even more irrelevant than say the compton cultists


As soon as Pope and Young recognizes crossbows, it will be irrelevant.

Quite a conundrum for our boys at P&Y, yes?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> As soon as Pope and Young recognizes crossbows, it will be irrelevant.
> 
> Quite a conundrum for our boys at P&Y, yes?



I guess they might as well disband because they are DOOMED no matter what.

Poop and DUng is irrelevant to 90%+ of the bowhunters right now anyway.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Poop and DUng is irrelevant to 90%+ of the bowhunters right now anyway.


I highly doubt its 90%.

And while you GLOAT about that, it is actually a sad reflection on the state of bowhunting today.

P&Y says lit sight pins are not fair chase. "But it gives me 10 minutes of extra shooting light and my state doesn't say its illegal!"

Yuck.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I highly doubt its 90%.
> 
> And while you GLOAT about that, it is actually a sad reflection on the state of bowhunting today.
> 
> P&Y says lit sight pins are not fair chase. "But it gives me 10 minutes of extra shooting light and my state doesn't say its illegal!"
> 
> Yuck.



Poop and DUng matters not to me. what they say is of no concern because they are based on a false premise and their motivations as to crossbows are impure. They are irrelevant and if they try to ban xbow hunting in Ohio they will be in the same status as PETA as far as I am concerned. They are bad for bowhunting, bad for hunting in general.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> LOL - that is the beauty of being the "premier" and "quintessential" bowhunting organization.
> 
> Its the Golden Rule. He who owns the gold, rules.


You're dodging again as usual.

Answer the question straight up..

They said in the past that the 65+% let offs were not "hunting bows" and thus, according to you, were "not fair chase."

In fact G. Fred Asbell said that "a 90% let off was akin to a vertical crossbow."

Now, all of a sudden these pieces of archery equipment really are "hunting bows" and thus "fair chase" in their and your eyes..

They, according to you, are the grand poobah of archery fair chase and they changed their minds. Does fair chase standards go backwards? I can see where we might strengthen fair chase rules, but go backwards?

How can you rectify that besides some cute little remark?


----------



## Tim4Trout

Jim C said:


> Poop and DUng.


:lol: :chortle:


----------



## willie

BTW - have you conceded on "ranges of compounds and crossbows"?

*OR*

Do you want to dispay some more of your ignorance?

.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> BTW - have you conceded on "ranges of compounds and crossbows"?
> .



I don't concede on ranges....I'll hold to my original statement.

In the hands of typical hunters, crossbows have a longer effective range than compounds. 

They are advantaged. Ask BB - that's why he switched.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> They are irrelevant and if they try to ban xbow hunting in Ohio they will be in the same status as PETA as far as I am concerned. They are bad for bowhunting, bad for hunting in general.


More crossbow radical extremism in action.

Please point out where ANYONE has proposed banning stringguns in Ohio.

No one has proposed they be banned.

Now, some have proposed they be separated from real bows and put into their own season. If I lived in OH, that is what I would want too.

If you wanted to hunt in bowseason, you would have to get off your rear and hunt with a bow..... no one would be takling anything away from you Jim.

How would it hurt you to have to hunt with a real bow in a season where only real bows are required? LOL


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> More crossbow radical extremism in action.
> 
> Please point out where ANYONE has proposed banning stringguns in Ohio.
> 
> No one has proposed they be banned.
> 
> Now, some have proposed they be separated from real bows and put into their own season. If I lived in OH, that is what I would want too.
> 
> If you wanted to hunt in bowseason, you would have to get off your rear and hunt with a bow..... no one would be takling anything away from you Jim.
> 
> How would it hurt you to have to hunt with a real bow in a season where only real bows are required? LOL



Poop and Dung wants to ban crossbow use in all archery seasons where they are currently allowed. I would be hurt because People who are bigots would be imposing their selfish fascism on me for reasons that have no logical support. That offends my sense of fairness and I object to having mental and moral inferiors imposing stupidity upon others.

Your claim that xbows are advantaged is the ranting of someone who is unlearned in this subject


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Poop and Dung wants to ban crossbow use in all archery seasons where they are currently allowed.


That doesn't mean they would be banned. They would be removed from seasons they should never have been in in the first place. I'm sure they'll find some part of a season for you.




Jim C said:


> I would be hurt because People who are bigots would be imposing their selfish fascism on me for reasons that have no logical support. That offends my sense of fairness and I object to having mental and moral inferiors imposing stupidity upon others.



Now THAT is funny right there. In other words there is no real reason not to kick them out of bowseason.

Crossbows in a bowseason offends my sense of fairness and I object having moral and mental inferiors squealing that they are the same as a compound when even a grade schooler knows they are different.

I don't see you losing any sleep when your selfish agenda is forced onto others - more hypocrisy from the crossbow radical fringe.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> I don't concede on ranges....I'll hold to my original statement.
> 
> In the hands of typical hunters, crossbows have a longer effective range than compounds.
> 
> They are advantaged. Ask BB - that's why he switched.


Even after the quotes from Archery Talk and Excalibur where "typical hunters" stated how far that they would shoot at deer and the AT folks were *OVERWHELMINGLY* longer yardage shooters?

You get slapped upside the head with posted verifiable data and you still "hold to your original statement."

People are seing through you right and left.

BB "switched" cause he likes them. Of course now in VA one can "switch" back and forth. It is nice to have a choice...


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That doesn't mean they would be banned. They would be removed from seasons they should never have been in in the first place. I'm sure they'll find some part of a season for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now THAT is funny right there. In other words there is no real reason not to kick them out of bowseason.
> 
> Crossbows in a bowseason offends my sense of fairness and I object having moral and mental inferiors squealing that they are the same as a compound when even a grade schooler knows they are different.
> 
> I don't see you losing any sleep when your selfish agenda is forced onto others - more hypocrisy from the crossbow radical fringe.


lets have a poll source on all of archery talk

we could ask-which poster is more intelligent about archery?

source or Jim C

my agenda isn't forced on you proving again that you really are rather ignorant in understanding what is at stake

tell me why we shouldn't ban people like you bowhunting if we get the votes?


----------



## willie

Jim C said:


> lets have a poll source on all of archery talk
> 
> we could ask-which poster is more intelligent about archery?
> 
> source or Jim C
> 
> my agenda isn't forced on you proving again that you really are rather ignorant in understanding what is at stake
> 
> tell me why we shouldn't ban people like you bowhunting if we get the votes?


the source has you beat......... in the recipe department.

Searching for non anti-crossbow posts by thesource reveals he once posted a recipe..

That's all I can find... no hunting, ....no bow shooting, just anti-crossbow and one recipe post.

Chef Huf N Puff...the anti-crossbower


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> the source has you beat......... in the recipe department.
> 
> Searching for non anti-crossbow posts by thesource reveals he once posted a recipe..
> 
> That's all I can find... no hunting, ....no bow shooting, just anti-crossbow and one recipe post.
> 
> Chef Huf N Puff...the anti-crossbower


More untruth....you must not have worked hard enough to find other posts, they are there.

Of course, the truth is not necessarily a hard and fast requirement in your crossbow campaign, now is it?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> More untruth....you must not have worked hard enough to find other posts, they are there.
> 
> Of course, the truth is not necessarily a hard and fast requirement in your crossbow campaign, now is it?



I have never seen Willie post anything that was untruthful


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> BB "switched" cause he likes them. Of course now in VA one can "switch" back and forth. It is nice to have a choice...


No, he admitted on this forum that he switched because crossbows are advantaged. Are you ever right?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No, he admitted on this forum that he switched because crossbows are advantaged. Are you ever right?


I use crossbows because I like shooting them-I also like listening to people I can easily outshoot with any other kind of bow brag that xbow archers can't use other bows.

its made me more than a few dollars at various ranges and clubs


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> More untruth....you must not have worked hard enough to find other posts, they are there.
> 
> Of course, the truth is not necessarily a hard and fast requirement in your crossbow campaign, now is it?


That is the only one I could find.

What others have you posted?

Where are they?

Point us in that direction. We would like to see your archery wisdom displayed.

I've also looked on KY Hunting and TNDeer and you have absolutely *NO* posts about hunting (or recipes) there either.

Just anti-crossbow posts.. period.

I do believe that is all you know - anti-crossbow and your wife's recipe for roast.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> No, he admitted on this forum that he switched because crossbows are advantaged. Are you ever right?


Really? 

Post it up where he said that..


----------



## thesource

Willie - do your own work.

Post this, post that - blah, blah. What a nag.

If you are interested, go find it. Are you to LAZY to do it? Figures.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Willie - do your own work.
> 
> Post this, post that - blah, blah. What a nag.
> 
> If you are interested, go find it. Are you to LAZY to do it? Figures.



we know Willie Bowhunts-and does it quite well. I have met Willie and I have seen his pictures with big bucks. Other people I know vouch for his skill and his success. Willie was bowhunting with trad bows years before AT even existed. I guess someone was just lazy and didn't get the facts about WIllie right


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Willie - do your own work.
> 
> Post this, post that - blah, blah. What a nag.
> 
> If you are interested, go find it. Are you to LAZY to do it? Figures.


Translation...

the source - " I cant back up what I say. I can say anything I want and don't have to back up or prove anything. You all will just have to take me at my word. You have no right to question Chef HuffNPuff."


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> we know Willie Bowhunts-and does it quite well. I have met Willie and I have seen his pictures with big bucks. Other people I know vouch for his skill and his success. Willie was bowhunting with trad bows years before AT even existed. I guess someone was just lazy and didn't get the facts about WIllie right


I think it is so cute that you try to protect and stick up for Willie .... precious....LOL

That doesn't change the fact he's not telling the truth and isn't willing to do the work to find it.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> Translation...
> 
> the source - " I cant back up what I say. I can say anything I want and don't have to back up or prove anything. You all will just have to take me at my word. You have no right to question Chef HuffNPuff."


Translation - "I'm already found out that source is telling the truth, which makes me look totally foolish, so I'll keep shoveling it and hope noone notices...."

Really, Willie. Noone cares except you and your protector.


----------



## willie

You've been proven wrong so many times, by so many people that it must really hurt your ego.

Keep mouthing off. You are the best player on *OUR* team..

When are you going to post something about hunting and not something anti-crossbow/hunting?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I think it is so cute that you try to protect and stick up for Willie .... precious....LOL
> 
> That doesn't change the fact he's not telling the truth and isn't willing to do the work to find it.


lets examine who has lied

You called all crossbow archers lazy-that is a lie-I can outshoot you with any style bow currently available. 

You called crossbow archers non bowhunters-a claim belied by the IBO and the NFAA.

You claim crossbows have a greater range than compound bows-again that is a lie


----------



## thesource

LOL.

Now THERE is the original Huff and puff.

Why don't you get back to topic instead of misrepresenting my positions, yet again?

Your personal shooting prowess has nothing to do with the motivation of some hunter who can't be bothered to shoot a real bow and cries and whimpers for point and shoot crossbows to be legalized.

I'm not sure that IBO or NFAA actually do claim that crossbow shooters are bowhunters. They are only peripherally linked to hunting anyway - who cares what they think?

More Jim spin - I didn't claim that crossbows have more range than compounds. I claimed they have a greater effective range in the hands of the typical hunter.....duh.


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> THAT is disengenuous baloney.
> 
> YOUR wild statements are starting to irritate mw.
> 
> For you to suggest that I lead anyone to think the crossbow is magical is not just a disservice - it is a flagrant untruth.
> 
> You are constantly demanding "facts" Doc - now I demand one.
> 
> SHOW ME where I said anything that would suggest "magical" qualities to the crossbow....you CANNOT.
> 
> Yes. "It is up to the hunter to develop the necessary skills to become a successful and skilled hunter", BUT the level of skill you require is DEPENDANT on the weapon you choose to carry.
> 
> C'mon, Doc. Say otherwise amd PROVE it...I'm waiting.


Ok.

By nature of your statement that a crossbow gives an unfair advantage because people's hunting success will go up.

As Follows:



thesource said:


> It is OBVIOUS that the choice of implement can make a hunter more successful.
> 
> Increases in effective range (the distance that you can maintain adequate accuracy) are absolutely correlatable to higher success.
> 
> For example, how many times have you found yourself holding a bow ans thinking "dang, if I only had a shotgun!" as a bruiser buck mosied along 10 yards out of your ethical bowrange?
> 
> Having that shotgun wouldn't make you a better hunter, but it would have made you a successful hunter, and that is what we're talking about.
> 
> Different implements enable additional options at additional ranges, and that means they are advantaged.
> 
> To say otherwise is blindly ignoring that what these implements would do is the opposite of what you state. They reward less skilled hunters, those who were not capable of closing the distance or closing the deal with a bow.


If the above doesn't smack of "magical crossbow" then I shall restate and say "mythical crossbow". This entire bloviation is inaccurate and full of malarky.

No implement on the plaent delivers an advantage on its own, source. The hunter must become familiar and comfortable and confident in any implement, period. Not a single hunting tool gets up and harvests animals on its own. The hunter has to become proficient with whatever implement he or she chooses.

You are making suggestions that are quite frankly "out there", completely dispensing the reality of the necessity of practice when it comes to teh crossbow, while stating the only way to get good with a vertical bow is to work hard and practice? You're kidding yourself if you believe the crossbow doesn't demand hard work from a hunter, source. It isn't magical or mythical, that suddenly you pull the crossbow from the dealer's display case, and shazaam, you're killing 12-point bucks at 60 yards the first time out.

Nothing but BS, source. Sorry, but I will call anyone on these aggregeous statements, 100% of the time.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> Now THERE is the original Huff and puff.
> 
> Why don't you get back to topic instead of misrepresenting my positions, yet again?
> 
> Your personal shooting prowess has nothing to do with the motivation of some hunter who can't be bothered to shoot a real bow and cries and whimpers for point and shoot crossbows to be legalized.
> 
> I'm not sure that IBO or NFAA actually do claim that crossbow shooters are bowhunters. They are only peripherally linked to hunting anyway - who cares what they think?
> 
> More Jim spin - I didn't claim that crossbows have more range than compounds. I claimed they have a greater effective range in the hands of the typical hunter.....duh.



you are fibbing again. Some people who use "real bows" make no effort to learn how to shoot them. I know that for a fact. I saw "last minute wonders" come into the shops where I worked the night or two before opening day. One guy came in to buy some arrows. The next day he came back and whined that he hit his rest with his broadhead drawing on moby buck. I asked him why he didn't figure out this practicing with the broadheads. He admitted he didn't take any practice shots with the fixed blade broadhead before hunting

Your main mistake (among many) is assuming that people who pick one kind of bow make more of an effort in hunting than others. That is complete and utter nonsense. you keep braying that target archery skills mean nothing yet you turn around and claim that xbow archers are lazy because they don't need to practice as much. hunting skills are hunting skills

and no crossbows don't have a longer range in the hands of a typical bowhunter and their noise often makes them have a shorter effective range

your caterwauling about the IBO is farcical too. Lets see=-what helps someone be a better bowhunter more-a group that stages shoots where people can improve their accuracy or the Poop and DUng which doesn't do anything but whine about xbows and massage the ego of certain people. What does Poop and Dung-or more importantly, that coalition of archery apartheid excluders do to actually help bowhunters?


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> When are you going to post something about hunting and not something anti-crossbow/hunting?


Shame on you willie. You know I am certainly not anti-hunting, and you even know I'm not anticrossbow. I support crossbows in their own season.

What I am against is the pollution of bowseason with anything not a bow, hand held and hand drawn, just like the VAST majority of the states currently dictate.

As the title of this thread (the TOPIC, in case you forgot) says, I don't even think that crossbows in bow season are fair chase.

It is sad that radical crossbow extremists must continually portray anyone with a conflicting opinion as an anti-hunter. Very lame and very sad. Too bad your crossbow cannot stand on its own under the intense glare of scrutiny.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Shame on you willie. You know I am certainly not anti-hunting, and you even know I'm not anticrossbow. I support crossbows in their own season.
> 
> .


So calling xbow archers lazy, greedy and cheaters and then claiming their trophies are worth less than those taken by those using wheelie bows isn't anti crossbow or anti xbow hunter? why don't you cut the crap source-we all know you denigrate and belittle crossbow archers and you act as if you are more worthy than they are,

why don't you say propose what seasons they should have. We will see how beneficent you are


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> Ok.
> 
> By nature of your statement that a crossbow gives an unfair advantage because people's hunting success will go up.
> 
> As Follows:
> 
> 
> If the above doesn't smack of "magical crossbow" then I shall restate and say "mythical crossbow". This entire bloviation is inaccurate and full of malarky.
> 
> No implement on the plaent delivers an advantage on its own, source. The hunter must become familiar and comfortable and confident in any implement, period. Not a single hunting tool gets up and harvests animals on its own. The hunter has to become proficient with whatever implement he or she chooses.
> 
> You are making suggestions that are quite frankly "out there", completely dispensing the reality of the necessity of practice when it comes to teh crossbow, while stating the only way to get good with a vertical bow is to work hard and practice? You're kidding yourself if you believe the crossbow doesn't demand hard work from a hunter, source. It isn't magical or mythical, that suddenly you pull the crossbow from the dealer's display case, and shazaam, you're killing 12-point bucks at 60 yards the first time out.
> 
> Nothing but BS, source. Sorry, but I will call anyone on these aggregeous statements, 100% of the time.


You are just not right on this one, Doc.

Certain weapons will most definitely deliver an advantage...to say otherwise is totally absurd.

You willnot admit that a .300 WSM offers advantage over my recurve?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Your main mistake (among many) is assuming that people who pick one kind of bow make more of an effort in hunting than others. That is complete and utter nonsense. you keep braying that target archery skills mean nothing yet you turn around and claim that xbow archers are lazy because they don't need to practice as much. hunting skills are hunting skills


Yet MORE misrepresentation.

I am not saying xbowers are lazy because they don't practice.

I am saying they are not motivated by bowhunting. They are too lazy to pick up a real bow when it is THE ONLY OPTION to get into bowseason.

Instead they cry and complain about legalizing stringguns so they can get into the bowseason action, when ALL they had to do is shoot a bow to get in in the first place!

Its indefensible, really. They want the reward without the effort - that's kinda the definition of lazy (and spoiled, too, I guess.)


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> So calling xbow archers lazy, greedy and cheaters and then claiming their trophies are worth less than those taken by those using wheelie bows isn't anti crossbow or anti xbow hunter? why don't you cut the crap source-we all know you denigrate and belittle crossbow archers and you act as if you are more worthy than they are,
> 
> why don't you say propose what seasons they should have. We will see how beneficent you are


Boy, all of you guys are lazy!

Do a search, Jim - I've proposed crossbow seasons countless times.

BTW - more untruth. I never claimed that xbow trophies are worth less than those taken by a bow.... I said stringunners only do 75% of the work a bowhunter is required to do to kill a deer. Geesh, you are a spinning machine, aren't ya?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Yet MORE misrepresentation.
> 
> I am not saying xbowers are lazy because they don't practice.
> 
> I am saying they are not motivated by bowhunting. They are too lazy to pick up a real bow when it is THE ONLY OPTION to get into bowseason.
> 
> Instead they cry and complain about legalizing stringguns so they can get into the bowseason action, when ALL they had to do is shoot a bow to get in in the first place!
> 
> Its indefensible, really. They want the reward without the effort - that's kinda the definition of lazy (and spoiled, too, I guess.)


More BS-compound archers lobbied to get their bows into bowseason. That is no different than what crossbow archers are doing. Why couldn't compound archers practice say 4 times a week all year long?

furthermore, why do you care? you continue to lie that crossbow advocates are forcing something on you when you know that is crap. no one is telling you that you have to shoot a "stringgun" to still bowhunt.

your obsession on what kind of bow others use is really interesting but really has no merit in the grand scheme of things


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Boy, all of you guys are lazy!
> 
> Do a search, Jim - I've proposed crossbow seasons countless times.
> 
> BTW - more untruth. I never claimed that xbow trophies are worth less than those taken by a bow.... I said stringunners only do 75% of the work a bowhunter is required to do to kill a deer. Geesh, you are a spinning machine, aren't ya?



you are wrong again. 75% of the work is a complete and utter lie-
given you have no experience in crossbow archery you are incompetent to even hazard a guess on the difference. its maybe 2% given that with either bow, the shooting skill is no longer a primary concern in terms of the work effort.

you propose crossbow seasons -but I don't recall when or where. a five day set aside for crossbows in a four month season means nothing. a crossbow season after or during gun season means nothing

SPELL IT OUT. In ohio we have from early october to Jan 31st for bowhunting. Why should either group have less time?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you are wrong again. 75% of the work is a complete and utter lie-
> given you have no experience in crossbow archery you are incompetent to even hazard a guess on the difference. its maybe 2% given that with either bow, the shooting skill is no longer a primary concern in terms of the work effort.
> 
> you propose crossbow seasons -but I don't recall when or where. a five day set aside for crossbows in a four month season means nothing. a crossbow season after or during gun season means nothing
> 
> SPELL IT OUT. In ohio we have from early october to Jan 31st for bowhunting. Why should either group have less time?


You appear to be ignorant of what is required to actually shoot abow.

When the crossbow hunter peers through his scope or red dot sight, snaps off his safety, and pulls the trigger (we are talking about a crossbow, right? It sounds just like what I do when I gun hunt....) his bolt is on its way and his work is done.

But a bowhunters' work is just beginning - draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through....all must be timed to avoid detection but still be able to maintain that draw....all those archery skills that a stringgunner need not possess.

Yup - no doubt about it. Fundamentally different. Obviously more difficult. And all totally absent from what a crossbower needs to do to get to the same point.

Regarding seasons:
First and foremost, it is none of my business what OH does with its archery season. Nonresidents' opinion shouldn't matter, because it thwarts the will of the state's sportsmen (seee UCBK for details....)

That said, I'll give you my opinion since you asked for it....

Since crossbowers do 75% of the work that a real bowhunter does, I would suggest 4 days of bowhunting for every 3 days of crossbow hunting. Since bowhunting is obviously harder than crossbow hunting, crossbows should be excluded from the times that deer are most vulnerable. Since bows are hard to draw with heavy winter clothing on and crossbows are merely point and shoot, it makes since to bias the bowseason towards the warmer weather.

All perfectly logical....you should try that, occasionally.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You appear to be ignorant of what is required to actually shoot abow.
> 
> When the crossbow hunter peers through his scope or red dot sight, snaps off his safety, and pulls the trigger (we are talking about a crossbow, right? It sounds just like what I do when I gun hunt....) his bolt is on its way and his work is done.
> 
> But a bowhunters' work is just beginning - draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through....all must be timed to avoid detection but still be able to maintain that draw....all those archery skills that a stringgunner need not possess.
> 
> Yup - no doubt about it. Fundamentally different. Obviously more difficult. And all totally absent from what a crossbower needs to do to get to the same point.
> 
> Regarding seasons:
> First and foremost, it is none of my business what OH does with its archery season. Nonresidents' opinion shouldn't matter, because it thwarts the will of the state's sportsmen (seee UCBK for details....)
> 
> That said, I'll give you my opinion since you asked for it....
> 
> Since crossbowers do 75% of the work that a real bowhunter does, I would suggest 4 days of bowhunting for every 3 days of crossbow hunting. Since bowhunting is obviously harder than crossbow hunting, crossbows should be excluded from the times that deer are most vulnerable. Since bows are hard to draw with heavy winter clothing on and crossbows are merely point and shoot, it makes since to bias the bowseason towards the warmer weather.
> 
> All perfectly logical....you should try that, occasionally.


Poor source-lecturing me on what it takes to shoot a bow. Please give it up source. There are at least 4 dozen people on this forum-from RecordKeeper to XXXBowho who can vouch for the fact that I know how to shoot a bow. RecordKeeper has shot next to me at NFAA louisville, JoeM and I shot NAA Nationals together and Aya has shot at my range and my home. I deny your claims that a compound requires 25% more work than a crossbow. And when you realize that shooting skills are a small part of bowhunting skills that gap becomes even less significant. You have never come close to explaining why anything other than your own issues require a separation. Game departments don't need it, the herd doesn't need it and the non bowhunting citizens don't need it. Only people with certain internally generated issues "need" it.

Source, you really don't help your apartheid program by pretending to lecture me on shooting a bow. I spend at least 10 hours a week on that issue-most of it involves helping others shoot bows. as to you, we have no evidence whatsoever that you actually shoot a bow, let alone hunt


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> I think it is so cute that you try to protect and stick up for Willie .... precious....LOL
> 
> That doesn't change the fact he's not telling the truth and isn't willing to do the work to find it.


While we're on the subject of who "said" what and posted what, just like you said Wilie was for an "any season", then *I* posted some actual factual proof that he'd posted he was NOT for any season(with provided quote and link) confirmed that he said "guns don't belong in archery season".........so you must forgive us for doubting your "he said".........we have seen the truth several times, how you cut out the "injury part" of another hunter's post.....(shall I go on?) :darkbeer: 

Where are some real facts and data to support some of these claims that are being made? :wink:


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> You are just not right on this one, Doc.
> 
> Certain weapons will most definitely deliver an advantage...to say otherwise is totally absurd.
> 
> You willnot admit that a .300 WSM offers advantage over my recurve?


If you cannot shoot the .300 WSM with accuracy, but you can with your recurve, your advantage is with the recurve, not the rifle.

This is a hunter issue, not an implement issue.

Now, in terms of context, before you spin this into saying I am for firearms in bow season (which I am NOT), we are not speaking about rifles versus bows, we are speaking of recurves, compound bows and crossbows. I love your practice of making wild claims that crossbows give an unfair advantage (which is clearly NOT the case), professing that hunters do not need to work on becoming good with a crossbow, which is clearly NOT reality, then, when challenged, throw a recurve vs a rifle to attempt to make your point?

This is classic bait & switch, source. Also delivers nothing but empty words, as you continually discount the practice needed to become proficient with whatever implement you choose, except the compound and recurve, of course.

Smoke and mirrors.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Poor source-lecturing me on what it takes to shoot a bow. Please give it up source. There are at least 4 dozen people on this forum-from RecordKeeper to XXXBowho who can vouch for the fact that I know how to shoot a bow. RecordKeeper has shot next to me at NFAA louisville, JoeM and I shot NAA Nationals together and Aya has shot at my range and my home. I deny your claims that a compound requires 25% more work than a crossbow.


Poor, simple Jim.

Why can you not separate your target shooting from the ONLY issue where crossbows vs bows matters - hunting. I grow weary of having to explain to you time and time again that NOONE cares about your tournament credentials, they are totally IRRELEVANT, because we are talking about HUNTING. 

Please try and keep up.



Jim C said:


> And when you realize that shooting skills are a small part of bowhunting skills that gap becomes even less significant.


This shows how far off base you truly are. At the end of the day, this all that matters in hunting. If you never shoot you will never be succesful. You are showing your hand as a radical crossbow extremist by minimizing the importance of bow shooting in bowhunting. 



Jim C said:


> Source, you really don't help your apartheid program by pretending to lecture me on shooting a bow. I spend at least 10 hours a week on that issue-most of it involves helping others shoot bows. as to you, we have no evidence whatsoever that you actually shoot a bow, let alone hunt


Once again, you delusionally confuse archery with hunting. Apparently I need to continue lecturing you, because it hasn't sunk in yet.


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> If you cannot shoot the .300 WSM with accuracy, but you can with your recurve, your advantage is with the recurve, not the rifle.
> 
> This is a hunter issue, not an implement issue.
> 
> Now, in terms of context, before you spin this into saying I am for firearms in bow season (which I am NOT), we are not speaking about rifles versus bows, we are speaking of recurves, compound bows and crossbows. I love your practice of making wild claims that crossbows give an unfair advantage (which is clearly NOT the case), professing that hunters do not need to work on becoming good with a crossbow, which is clearly NOT reality, then, when challenged, throw a recurve vs a rifle to attempt to make your point?
> 
> This is classic bait & switch, source. Also delivers nothing but empty words, as you continually discount the practice needed to become proficient with whatever implement you choose, except the compound and recurve, of course.
> 
> Smoke and mirrors.


Your bias is showing again, Mr moderator.

Please show me where I was "professing that hunters do not need to work on becoming good with a crossbow"..... I didn't.

Please understand that I went to rifle vs recurve to make the point so exceedingly absurd that you would have to admit you were wrong, and that weapons are advantaged. It didn't work - you stubbornly cling to your rhetoric even though it makes you look exceedingly foolish to suggest that a recurve is advantaged over a .300WSM.....

You are trying to convince people this is a hunter issue, not a weapons issue .... its not.

Take the exact same hunter and hand him a sighted in crossbow and a sighted in .300WSM, assume he is proficient with one or the other (and I don't care which) - which will offer him advantage?

Careful Doctari. There is only one clear and correct answer. We all know what it is. Let's see you pull your rabbit out of this hat.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Poor, simple Jim.
> 
> Why can you not separate your target shooting from the ONLY issue where crossbows vs bows matters - hunting. I grow weary of having to explain to you time and time again that NOONE cares about your tournament credentials, they are totally IRRELEVANT, because we are talking about HUNTING.
> 
> Please try and keep up.
> 
> 
> 
> This shows how far off base you truly are. At the end of the day, this all that matters in hunting. If you never shoot you will never be succesful. You are showing your hand as a radical crossbow extremist by minimizing the importance of bow shooting in bowhunting.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, you delusionally confuse archery with hunting. Apparently I need to continue lecturing you, because it hasn't sunk in yet.


you again are confused. people practice and learn to shoot for hunting by practicing on targets. YOu have no clue about shooting a crossbow and I doubt you have any clue about shooting other bows. A good tournament shooter is a far better shooter in hunting situations than someone who isn't any good in competition. that's why so many 3D champions and in the past field and target champions state how they became champions-they started with an idea to become better hunters.

we have no objective way of measuring hunting accuracy because there are too many variables. I also note that people who make bows consider target results valid for hunting marketing-that's why hoyt and mathews and martin all place advertising in bowhunting magazines touting tournament wins by people using their bows

I suspect far more people respect what I say because they can verify my claims as being true than care about your hysterical anti xbow nonsense that is unsupported by any facts or any personal expertise


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Your bias is showing again, Mr moderator.
> 
> Please show me where I was "professing that hunters do not need to work on becoming good with a crossbow"..... I didn't.
> 
> Please understand that I went to rifle vs recurve to make the point so exceedingly absurd that you would have to admit you were wrong, and that weapons are advantaged. It didn't work - you stubbornly cling to your rhetoric even though it makes you look exceedingly foolish to suggest that a recurve is advantaged over a .300WSM.....
> 
> You are trying to convince people this is a hunter issue, not a weapons issue .... its not.
> 
> Take the exact same hunter and hand him a sighted in crossbow and a sighted in .300WSM, assume he is proficient with one or the other (and I don't care which) - which will offer him advantage?
> 
> Careful Doctari. There is only one clear and correct answer. We all know what it is. Let's see you pull your rabbit out of this hat.


When we put a "weapon" in someone's hands, no matter what weapon it is, I will assume nothing. 

And how can this be anything but a Hunter issue, Source? I like the reasoning, here. Hand a hunter a sighted in crossbow, and sighted in .300, which offers the advantage. Gee, I dunno. Where is he or she hunting? What is the habitat like? How far a line of sight behind teh target does the hunter have? How far can you watch the aproach of the animal? Are we talking iron sight or scope? 

Too many assumptions here, with conditions and hunter abilities with either implement. If this "same" hunter has never fired a crossbow or a .300, at a target or in the field, I would have to say the implement giving the most advantage would be a Bowie knife. Just let me know when and where this hunter will be in the woods, so I can clearly avoid that area.

This is a hunter issue, not an implement issue.


----------



## thesource

More senseless wiggling, Doc.

I find your attempt at logic frightening - if there is no difference in weapons and only hunters, why stop at allowing xbows into bow season? Why not MZ or centerfires - after all they are not advantaged, according to Doctari.

We will never achieve anything close to consensus on this issue when the crossbow radicals refuse to concede even the smallest and most obvious point.


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Boy, all of you guys are lazy!
> 
> Do a search, Jim - I've proposed crossbow seasons countless times.
> 
> BTW - more untruth. I never claimed that xbow trophies are worth less than those taken by a bow.... *I said stringunners only do 75% of the work a bowhunter is required to do to kill a deer.* Geesh, you are a spinning machine, aren't ya?



Half truths are, well, only half truthful or what you call spin. What you actually wrote was that crossbow hunters were only doing 75% of the work *but were claiming full credit.* If our kills aren't worth "full credit" and yours are then you are in fact saying that our trophies are not worth as much.

Keeping you honest is becomming a full time job.:sad:


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Half truths are, well, only half truthful or what you call spin. What you actually wrote was that crossbow hunters were only doing 75% of the work *but were claiming full credit.* If our kills aren't worth "full credit" and yours are then you are in fact saying that our trophies are not worth as much.
> 
> Keeping you honest is becomming a full time job.:sad:



More half truth from yet another stringgunner.

You should feel free to interpret what I write however you want, and I have no problems with any of you commenting on your interpretations ....but you cannot then say that I am "saying" anything if I didn't say it. Duh.

The "claiming full credit" was in regards to you calling yourself a bowhunter - which you are cleary not when using a crossbow.

Keeping you honest is a full time job, too.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> More half truth from yet another stringgunner.
> 
> You should feel free to interpret what I write however you want, and I have no problems with any of you commenting on your interpretations ....but you cannot then say that I am "saying" anything if I didn't say it. Duh.
> 
> The "claiming full credit" was in regards to you calling yourself a bowhunter - which you are cleary not when using a crossbow.
> 
> Keeping you honest is a full time job, too.



Your opinion is that a crossbow archer is not a bowhunter. My opinion differs

We then have to compare credentials in archery to judge which opinion counts more

You lose on that sort of comparison source


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Your opinion is that a crossbow archer is not a bowhunter. My opinion differs
> 
> We then have to compare credentials in archery to judge which opinion counts more
> 
> You lose on that sort of comparison source



Your credentials in archery are WORTHLESS when it comes to bowhunting...who cares? I know I'm not impressed - in fact I think its a funny joke.

I don't lose just because you say so, Jim. You clearly have self-importance issues. Each hunter will have to decide on his own - I'm OK with that, since 70% of AT members think crossbows do not even belong in archery, let alone bowseason.

YOU lose on that Jim.


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> More senseless wiggling, Doc.
> 
> I find your attempt at logic frightening - if there is no difference in weapons and only hunters, why stop at allowing xbows into bow season? Why not MZ or centerfires - after all they are not advantaged, according to Doctari.
> 
> We will never achieve anything close to consensus on this issue when the crossbow radicals refuse to concede even the smallest and most obvious point.


Whatever. I state that a hunter needs to become proficient at whatever implement is chosen, including crossbows. You state that the crossbow somehow circumvents this, through your "unfair advantage", through your incessant comparisons to rifles (which also demand practice) and through the "laziness" of crossbow and gun hunters - further implication that you need not work to become a good shot with implements other than vertical bows.

Now, you do the same old and state that I am for firerms in archery season. 

This entire argument you have framed SOurce is resembling balls on a bishop.


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> This entire argument you have framed SOurce is resembling balls on a bishop.


Then why do you need to resort to doublespeak to countermand it?

ADMIT it Doctari.

I will AGREE with you that hunters should be proficient with their weapons. Assuming that they are (and we BOTH agree they should be)

Go ahead and explain why their are not advantages to weapons, why it is only a "hunter" issue.

You can't - period.


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Then why do you need to resort to doublespeak to countermand it?
> 
> ADMIT it Doctari.
> 
> I will AGREE with you that hunters should be proficient with their weapons. Assuming that they are (and we BOTH agree they should be)
> 
> Go ahead and explain why their are not advantages to weapons, why it is only a "hunter" issue.
> 
> You can't - period.


No, I have.

Each implement on its own, has differing capabilities. Capabilities and Advantages are two entirely different words, perhaps this is where you are mixed up. Let me throw a scenario at you.

You are heading out for an opening day (Regular Season) hunt. You now have the choice to use a rifle or a shotgun. Your shotgun is an 870 Express 12 Ga., iron sights. Your rifle is a 30-06, bolt action, with Leupold scope. 

You will be hunting an area that is thick with red brush, and you're on the ground. You have a couple lanes to shoot through from your stand, each giving you a maximum line of sight of less than 75 yards. 

Which implement gives you the best advantage in this situation? Answer, the 870 Express.

Advantages in implements is dependent upon situations and ability. Ability is obvious, as we agree on this point that huntrs should be proficient with whatever implement is chosen. Advantage is choosing the right implement for the situation you will be hunting. For instance, a compound bow gives you an advantage over a recurve when hunting from a treestand. The recurve gives and advantage over the compound when still hunting.

It is about the right implement, not the implement itself. You can walk into the woods with a 50 cal sniper rifle, and be at a disadvantage if you're shooting at game less than 50 yards away, with very little "wiggle room" on either side of the shooting lane.

Does that help clarify my position?


----------



## thesource

It helps clarify your spin.....

In the end the -06 has a significant range advantage.

The 870 may have a tactical situation or 2 where it can hold its own, but the long and short of it is that the -06 is advantaged. It can do things that the 12 gauge just cannot do.

And so it is with all weapons as we compare them directly.

And that is why your arguement is a crock.


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> It helps clarify your spin.....
> 
> In the end the -06 has a significant range advantage.
> 
> The 870 may have a tactical situation or 2 where it can hold its own, but the long and short of it is that the -06 is advantaged. It can do things that the 12 gauge just cannot do.
> 
> And so it is with all weapons as we compare them directly.
> 
> And that is why your arguement is a crock.


Range is a capability, not an advantage. Just because the firearm says its capable of a 300 yard range doesn't mean you or I can execute a 300 yard shot. This capability also does not mean that it is the right implement for a short range game, in fact, this acts as a disadvantage.

Again, we are speaking about capabilities when you begin to mention range, or ammunition capacity, or fps generated from the riser or the muzzle.

Methinks this is part of the misconceptions.....


----------



## thesource

MeThinks you are trying to squirm out from a choke hold.

Range IS a capability...and OBVIOUSLY an advantage, too.

If you have an-06 and I have my recurve, standing right next to one another, and we see a B&C 10pt at 150 yards.......

Only 1 of us has a chance to kill that deer.

That is ADVANTAGE. It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to do it with the weapon in my hands.

If you are feeling bighearted (or already filled your gun tag on a 4 pt, let's say) and you give me the 30-06, I can and will kill the deer at 150 yards that I could not just a second prior....due to the weapon in my hands.

Cut and dry....


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> It helps clarify your spin.....
> 
> In the end the -06 has a significant range advantage.


Not if the furthest you can shoot is 50 yards in any direction.

Doc is 100% right on.

Tracking wounded bears in Canada in the bush our choice was the 870 loaded with slugs.

The bush is THICK...


----------



## TXWhackMaster

thesource said:


> But a bowhunters' work is just beginning - draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through....all must be timed to avoid detection but still be able to maintain that draw....all those archery skills that a stringgunner need not possess.
> 
> :


Quite dramatic albeit inacurate.

Compound Bow = draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through.
Crossbow = raise, mount, aim, steady, release, follow through.


----------



## thesource

TXWhackMaster said:


> Quite dramatic albeit inacurate.
> 
> Compound Bow = draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through.
> Crossbow = raise, mount, aim, steady, release, follow through.


Nawwwww,

Crossbow = point, shoot. Just like a gun. You can't fool anyone.


----------



## willie

TXWhackMaster said:


> Quite dramatic albeit inacurate.
> 
> Compound Bow = draw, anchor, aim, release, follow through.
> Crossbow = raise, mount, aim, steady, release, follow through.





thesource said:


> Nawwwww,
> 
> Crossbow = point, shoot. Just like a gun. You can't fool anyone.



As you can see thesource knows very little about archery and even less about crossbows.

Hunting? Not sure. He never talks about it..


.


----------



## TXWhackMaster

thesource said:



> Nawwwww,
> 
> Crossbow = point, shoot. Just like a gun. You can't fool anyone.


LOL! You're cute.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> As you can see thesource knows very little about archery and even less about crossbows.
> 
> Hunting? Not sure. He never talks about it..


Willie...

Your attempt to paint me as a non-hunter (or worse) would be laughable even if it were not so absolutely transparent.

Everyone sees you for the doddering crossbow activist that you are. You are out of your league here - you do much better in the protected, compound bashing crossbow sites that you enjoy frequenting.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Your credentials in archery are WORTHLESS when it comes to bowhunting...who cares? I know I'm not impressed - in fact I think its a funny joke.
> 
> I don't lose just because you say so, Jim. You clearly have self-importance issues. Each hunter will have to decide on his own - I'm OK with that, since 70% of AT members think crossbows do not even belong in archery, let alone bowseason.
> 
> YOU lose on that Jim.


No I don't-that poll was neither scientific nor representative. You are lying as usual. the fact is -every major archery organization that exists to promote all sorts of archery supports me.

You have no credentials whatsoever source. You have yet to post a single supporting reference acknowledging that you even have any archery credentials or bowhunting credentials


----------



## TXWhackMaster

thesource said:


> I'm OK with that, since 70% of AT members think crossbows do not even belong in archery, let alone bowseason.


I notice that far less than 70% of AT members are lining up to support you in this fight. They must feel really strongly about it. My bet is that more than 70% of AT is much more interested in "spot and foam" than they are hunting. BTW 70% of any given population can and is frequently wrong if they don't take the time to educate themselves on the issues and fully contemplate the long term repercusions of their actions.
It took a 67% radification of the states to prohibit alcohol and another 67% to reverse it. Regardless of how you feel about alcohol, one of those votes was wrong.:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Nawwwww,
> 
> Crossbow = point, shoot. Just like a gun. You can't fool anyone.



edify us on your crossbow tournament titles or your game animals taken with crossbow

saying guns are point and shoot prove you really have no training in marksmanship either. Should I post the USAMU International Rifle Guide here to further demonstrate your lack of understanding?


----------



## Jim C

TXWhackMaster said:


> I notice that far less than 70% of AT members are lining up to support you in this fight. They must feel really strongly about it. My bet is that more than 70% of AT is much more interested in "spot and foam" than they are hunting. BTW 70% of any given population can and is frequently wrong if they don't take the time to educate themselves on the issues and fully contemplate the long term repercusions of their actions.
> It took a 67% radification of the states to prohibit alcohol and another 67% to reverse it. Regardless of how you feel about alcohol, one of those votes was wrong.:darkbeer:


Just as one "infallible" Pope declared Jean d' Arc a heretic and condemned her to the stake and another "infallible" Pople canonized her as a saint


----------



## TXWhackMaster

Jim C said:


> Just as one "infallible" Pope declared Jean d' Arc a heretic and condemned her to the stake and another "infallible" Pople canonized her as a saint


Impressive Jim. In the famous words of Doc Holiday, "you must be an educated man". An aristocrat and a sportsman no less. How do you feel about Spanish SxS's and single malt scotch?


----------



## TXWhackMaster

thesource said:


> Willie...
> 
> Your attempt to paint me as a non-hunter (or worse) would be laughable even if it were not so absolutely transparent.


Source,
Your simplification of hunting and emphasis specifically on drawing a bow baffles me. I mean absolutely no disrespect but have you ever killed a big game animal?


----------



## Jim C

TXWhackMaster said:


> Impressive Jim. In the famous words of Doc Holiday, "you must be an educated man". An aristocrat and a sportsman no less. How do you feel about Spanish SxS's and single malt scotch?


well as to scotch, my best friend at law school and a friend playing in the bar's house band got me a shot per year for my 23rd birthday. I didn't come close but I can't even stand the smell of scotch since then

Some spanish guns are good-good as all but the best Italian guns (hate to break the news but having shot the BEST british guns and the Rizzini and the Perazzi and the Fabris, the Italians are better) while some, like the AYA have some issues with the metal treatment. My father had a couple of the best Spanish guns and they are nice but my Godfather had problems with his Garbi's


----------



## Tim4Trout

thesource said:


> I'm OK with that, since 70% of AT members think crossbows do not even belong in archery, let alone bowseason.


Please direct me to where it shows 29,127 ( 70% of the AT members ) indicating that they feel as you have quoted above.

_ Polls only accurately depict the opinions of the volunteering participants, not an overall consesus._


----------



## Tim4Trout

willie said:


> When are you going to post something about hunting and not something anti-crossbow/hunting?


Heck , I'd like to know what his post count would be sans his post against crossbows.


----------



## Jim C

Tim4Trout said:


> Heck , I'd like to know what his post count would be sans his post against crossbows.


less than 15.


----------



## doctariAFC

Tim4Trout said:


> Please direct me to where it shows 29,127 ( 70% of the AT members ) indicating that they feel as you have quoted above.
> 
> _ Polls only accurately depict the opinions of the volunteering participants, not an overall consesus._


I had a pretty good poll on the subject nearly a year ago, and it clearly showed the crossbow with quite a bit of support - like the majority want the crossbow in NYS either in its entirity, or in part.

I'll have to dig up some archives on this one. hmmm......

It also generated much publicity, too, in the Buffalo News and in NY Outdoor News.

Hmmmmm.....


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

I see why we consistenty disagree. We can't agree on words and what they mean.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*Source*



thesource said:


> The truth is, P&Y remains THE quintessential bowhunting organization. Crossbows are not considered to be hunting bows, and are therfore not fair chase in archery seasons. State by state, decisions may be made to allow crossbows into the bowseason. That does NOT mean they belong there...it means that state has decided to put them there.QUOTE]
> 
> This is what I was referring to. Well one example of many anyway.
> You want to say that something doesn't count unless P&Y says it counts.
> 
> It doesn't belong unless pope and young says it belongs. All they have to do is say WHY something doesn't belong in a hunting season, and maybe the state would understand. "Because" just doesn't cut it for most reasonable people.
> 
> Crossbows are not considered to be hunting bows?
> By whom? If they aren't hunting bows...then are they target only bows?
> Never mind..don't answer the questions...I don't have an expectation that you will. You've ignored a bunch of questions on the other thread. But its okay for you to not respond. I understand why.
> 
> Here is why. You are clearly frustrated. Until we can agree on the definition of words, we keep wandering around this discussion. No clarity can be attained.
> 
> The state by its laws say they belong there. The state decided to put them there because they decided they belong there. Guess we'll have to disagree on the meaning of the word belong.


----------



## thesource

P&Y clearly states that they do not consider crossbows to be hunting bows.

Since P&Y is a bowhunting organization, I doubt very much if they care what you call a crossbow as long as you do not hunt in bowseason with it. But I doubt they would call it a target bow, since they are on the record as saying they do not consider a crossbow a bow at all.

A few states have placed crossbows into bowseason. Of course a few states have placed MZ into bowseason, too. That would suggest they, indeed, feel they belong there.

But it is hardly the philosophical "belong" we are discussing, and you know it.

The VAST majority of states and provinces do not allow crossbows in bowseason...do not agree that they belong, to use your line of reasoning.

Should we conclude that since most states do not feel they belong in bowseason, that is the correct answer?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> P&Y clearly states that they do not consider crossbows to be hunting bows.
> 
> Since P&Y is a bowhunting organization, I doubt very much if they care what you call a crossbow as long as you do not hunt in bowseason with it. But I doubt they would call it a target bow, since they are on the record as saying they do not consider a crossbow a bow at all.
> 
> A few states have placed crossbows into bowseason. Of course a few states have placed MZ into bowseason, too. That would suggest they, indeed, feel they belong there.
> 
> But it is hardly the philosophical "belong" we are discussing, and you know it.
> 
> The VAST majority of states and provinces do not allow crossbows in bowseason...do not agree that they belong, to use your line of reasoning.
> 
> Should we conclude that since most states do not feel they belong in bowseason, that is the correct answer?



Poop and Dung is a greed based institution stroking the egos of the selfish.

as to state laws you are lying again Source-most states allow crossbows in bow season-they merely restrict the individual using them

no state to the best of my knowledge allows firearms in archery only seasons


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> no state to the best of my knowledge allows firearms in archery only seasons


DUH - as soon as they allow firearms, they are no longer archery only, are they?

Do some research....I'm tired of having to continually educate you.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> DUH - as soon as they allow firearms, they are no longer archery only, are they?
> 
> Do some research....I'm tired of having to continually educate you.



you have yet to educate me on anything other than the paranoia of the anti crossbow crowd.

I am a master coach and I can prove that. we have no evidence you even bowhunt beyond your own claims. How in God's name are you educating anyone with claims that xbows aren't bows or that xbow hunters are "lazy" or cheaters?

lets look at your last comment-allowing firearms into archery only season would obviously make the season something other than archery only yet many states allow crossbows in archery only season and they STILL REMAIN ARCHERY ONLY 

in other words, that DESTROYS your blather than crossbows aren't bows or aren't archery

you lose


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you have yet to educate me on anything other than the paranoia of the anti crossbow crowd.
> 
> I am a master coach and I can prove that. we have no evidence you even bowhunt beyond your own claims. How in God's name are you educating anyone with claims that xbows aren't bows or that xbow hunters are "lazy" or cheaters?
> 
> lets look at your last comment-allowing firearms into archery only season would obviously make the season something other than archery only yet many states allow crossbows in archery only season and they STILL REMAIN ARCHERY ONLY
> 
> in other words, that DESTROYS your blather than crossbows aren't bows or aren't archery
> 
> you lose


Shame on you Jim .... misrpresenting again.

Most states only allow crossbows into archery season for special circumstances, such as physically challenged. These same states have clear definitions that exclude crossbow from the definition of a bow, or archery, or both.

Very FEW states allow crossbows for everyone, but even the few that do do not universally apply the "archery" label. AR, for example, calls their season "Archery/Crossbow", indicating they recognize the difference. Even though OH allows both and calls their season "archery", they clearly define a crossbow as different than a bow in their regulations. 

PA dumped a MZ season in the middle of their bowseason. They renamed it to "Muzzleloader Season", but if you look at the "Archery Season" dates, they encompass MZ. (By the way, guess which season xbows are legal in statewide in PA? Hint - not the "Bow" part of it....)

I could go on and on, but I suppose I have schooled you enough nd you already looked foolish, so waht is the point?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Shame on you Jim .... misrpresenting again.
> 
> Most states only allow crossbows into archery season for special circumstances, such as physically challenged. These same states have clear definitions that exclude crossbow from the definition of a bow, or archery, or both.


Lol this is funny. Misrepresentation is claiming a crossbow isn't a bow or part of archery. by definition if its allowed in archery only season-even by a limited few, its still archery. This completely destroys the idiotic claims that xbows aren't archery (well the NAA put that nonsense to rest 60 years ago) or aren't bows.




thesource said:


> Very FEW states allow crossbows for everyone, but even the few that do do not universally apply the "archery" label. AR, for example, calls their season "Archery/Crossbow", indicating they recognize the difference. Even though OH allows both and calls their season "archery", they clearly define a crossbow as different than a bow in their regulations.


bigotry and disinformation is strong forces-fortunately, those myths and propaganda are dissipating. Ohio allows crossbows in the deer season and treats them exactly like compounds for deer. They also treat longbows and compounds EXACTLY the same when we all know they are as different as a crossbow and a longbow are




thesource said:


> PA dumped a MZ season in the middle of their bowseason. They renamed it to "Muzzleloader Season", but if you look at the "Archery Season" dates, they encompass MZ. (By the way, guess which season xbows are legal in statewide in PA? Hint - not the "Bow" part of it....)
> 
> I could go on and on, but I suppose I have schooled you enough nd you already looked foolish, so waht is the point?


more delusions of you winning source when everyone else sees that you are wrong.

tell me again why crossbows aren't part of archery or aren't a type of bow


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Willie...
> 
> Your attempt to paint me as a non-hunter (or worse) would be laughable even if it were not so absolutely transparent.
> 
> Everyone sees you for the doddering crossbow activist that you are. You are out of your league here - you do much better in the protected, compound bashing crossbow sites that you enjoy frequenting.


I'm quite sure that the good folks on here can see who does really hunt and who is just a wannabee bowhunter.

Experience tells. Of course I have to hand it to you. You dont know much about hunting, so in order to keep that hidden, you don' even post about it. Afraid to step out of the closet?

Not sure when "everyone" had an election and elected you official spokeperson for them.


----------



## willie

TXWhackMaster said:


> Source,
> Your simplification of hunting and emphasis specifically on drawing a bow baffles me. I mean absolutely no disrespect but have you ever killed a big game animal?



*Good question....that has been asked and asked...*


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> I'm quite sure that the good folks on here can see who does really hunt and who is just a wannabee bowhunter.


Agreed - they know the guy with a crossbow is a wannabee bowhunter. 

Although I find your endless character assination humorous, it has nothing to do with the topic.

Think you can focus and get back on point?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Agreed - they know the guy with a crossbow is a wannabee bowhunter.
> 
> Although I find your endless character assination humorous, it has nothing to do with the topic.
> 
> Think you can focus and get back on point?


maybe you could end this nonsense and tell us what are the objective facts that require crossbows and compounds to "need" seperate seasons and why crossbow hunters are somehow inferior to those using the compound bow


----------



## thesource

I don't really think that crossbow hunters are inferior to bowhunters - just different.

They are different because they do not require the same skill set to hunt with their weapon as bowhunters do with theirs - crossbows and bows are fundamentally different.

They should be in their own season because the weapons are fundamentally different....and because they have no right to barge into existing seasons by forcing rule changes just to accomodate their greed and la........ lack of motivation, we'll say.. 

If these hunters who would be crossbow hunters would like to hunt in existing bowseasons, they should do so by the existing rules. That means they need to use a legal hunting bow.

Quite simple, actually.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I don't really think that crossbow hunters are inferior to bowhunters - just different.
> 
> They are different because they do not require the same skill set to hunt with their weapon as bowhunters do with theirs - crossbows and bows are fundamentally different.
> 
> They should be in their own season because the weapons are fundamentally different....and because they have no right to barge into existing seasons by forcing rule changes just to accomodate their greed and la........ lack of motivation, we'll say..
> 
> If these hunters who would be crossbow hunters would like to hunt in existing bowseasons, they should do so by the existing rules. That means they need to use a legal hunting bow.
> 
> Quite simple, actually.


one term destroys this nonsense-compound bows.

you have an outcome based argument that is inconsistent with reality. you cannot give us an objective reason dealing with public needs, herd numbers etc that supports your desire for apatheid. You make up a reason for separation that plays no rational role in objective game managment. You also ignore the fact that all your blather is equally or even more "logical" when applied to compound vs recurve/trad bows. 

we don't seperate shotguns from handguns in Ohio even though obtaining the skill to hit a deer is extremely different between the two weapons. We don't seperate semi auto vs bolt action rifles in states that allow rifles. the difference in skills between a crossbow and a compound are minor compared to the difference between a trad and a compound bow or a revolver vs a scoped rifled shotgun. compound bows "barged" into the trad season no less or no more than crossbows

No one has been able to justify why compounds should not have been included. No one has been able to find an argument applicable to crossbows that is not applicable to compounds. a modern compound and release negates having to learn the intrinsic skills of archery. there is no legal, moral or game management reason why how one shoots a bow or acquires the skill to do so is relevant to the season


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Agreed - they know the guy with a crossbow is a wannabee bowhunter.
> 
> Although I find your endless character assination humorous, it has nothing to do with the topic.
> 
> Think you can focus and get back on point?


The point is when considering input from individuals it is always best to know their actual experience in the subject being talked about. Some we can write off as inexperienced in the subject and not knowing what they are talking about. So far that fits you.

AGAIN - Tell us about your bowhunting. You were also asked if you had ever bowkilled a deer. A verifying picture would be nice too.



.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> one term destroys this nonsense-compound bows.


I'm tired of your compound bashing idiocy.

Everyone understands that a compound is already classified as a bow in evry existing bowseason - Everyone understands that the movemnets and skills to shoot a compound or a trad bow are consistent .

Everyone understands that the crossbow is not.

You can spout all you want about no legal, moral, or game management reasons not to allow a crossbow - while the EXACT same case could be made for flintlocks or handguns, ignoring the main point of importance - THEY DO NOT BELONG.

I realize you are seeking some sort of legitimacy for your crossbow useage - but you will never find it. Most bowhunters will never accept your boltchucking hybrid of bow and gun as a bow, nor will they accept its owner as a bowhunter.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I'm tired of your compound bashing idiocy.
> 
> Everyone understands that a compound is already classified as a bow in evry existing bowseason - Everyone understands that the movemnets and skills to shoot a compound or a trad bow are consistent .
> 
> Everyone understands that the crossbow is not.
> 
> You can spout all you want about no legal, moral, or game management reasons not to allow a crossbow - while the EXACT same case could be made for flintlocks or handguns, ignoring the main point of importance - THEY DO NOT BELONG.
> 
> I realize you are seeking some sort of legitimacy for your crossbow useage - but you will never find it. Most bowhunters will never accept your boltchucking hybrid of bow and gun as a bow, nor will they accept its owner as a bowhunter.


I can prove I own and shoot compound bows. your saying everyone "knows" is moronic. I have far more archery experience (VERIFIABLE ARCHERY EXPERIENCE) than you do and I DENY your lame claims

I say they belong. You say they don't, and yet you have no credentials. Your opinion is unlearned and most likely the product of something other than based on archery experience. 

your ranting about me bashing compounds is idiotic. I support compounds because they allow many people to bowhunt who could not hunt with ethically sufficient trad bows. ITS THE SAME EXACT REASON WHY I SUPPORT crossbows


----------



## willie

In listening to input into a debate one always has to consider the source of the input.

No pun intended...


.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> Should we conclude that since most states do not feel they belong in bowseason, that is the correct answer?


no...because...well just because.

Pretty weak argument...wouldn't you agree?


----------



## willie

Originally Posted by thesource



> Should we conclude that since most states do not feel they belong in bowseason, that is the correct answer?


Actually *MOST* states do allow them in archery season by either anyone or the physically challenged.

Exception is such backwards states like New York.

No state allows any physically challenged individual to use any other type of hunting tool (rifles, slug guns, muzzlelaoders, handguns, etc.) in the archery season.

*MOST* states recognize the crossbow as *archery equipment *to be used by the physically challenged. Not all of them allow the non-physically challenegd the right to use them - *YET.*

That is what sticks in your craw is that some day all states except New York will allow their use by every sportsman and woman.

New York will still be holding out and re-electing Hillary and Schumer.

Somthing for NY to be real proud of..


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> Originally Posted by thesource
> _
> Should we conclude that since most states do not feel they belong in bowseason, that is the correct answer? _
> 
> Actually *MOST* states do allow them in archery season by either anyone or the physically challenged.


We all understand that those states that allow them for physically challenged are making an *exception * (and rightly so) that enables those who need them the extra advantage.

That doesn't change the fact that those states do not feel they belong in bowseason for those that do not need the advantage.....Oh Yea - That is the VAST majority of states, like I said.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> We all understand that those states that allow them for physically challenged are making an *exception * (and rightly so) that enables those who need them the extra advantage.
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that those states do not feel they belong in bowseason for those that do not need the advantage.....Oh Yea - That is the VAST majority of states, like I said.


That does not change the fact that the states do not allow any other hunting tool for the physically challenged except a piece of archery equipment - the crossbow.

Would you like to guess what deer tag these physiclaly challenged folks use with their crossbow? Hint - it's not a firearm tag. 

BTW - I'm sure glad that you put that screwed up face  at the end of your statements or some people might think you are trying to make a serious statement. A self portrait no doubt...


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> That does not change the fact that the states do not allow any other hunting tool for the physically challenged except a piece of archery equipment - the crossbow...


And that does not change the fact that they make a special exception to allow your use of the illegal crossbow at all. 

Noone would argue a crossbow is more similiar to a bow than a gun is.

Only a few self-serving crossbow radicals would argue it is the same as a bow.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> And that does not change the fact that they make a special exception to allow your use of the illegal crossbow at all.
> 
> Noone would argue a crossbow is more similiar to a bow than a gun is.
> 
> Only a few self-serving crossbow radicals would argue it is the same as a bow.



and no one who understands archery would deny that a crossbow is closer to a compound/release than a compound release is to a trad bow

YOu still haven't made any points Source. Its greed hidden by a "worthiness" argument that has no relevance to proper game management


----------



## thesource

Tell me, Jim, doesn't it make you feel a little funny to hunt with what is generally considered illegal equipment during hunting season?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Tell me, Jim, doesn't it make you feel a little funny to hunt with what is generally considered illegal equipment during hunting season?



Is there a point to such a ridiculous comment source? its been legal in ohio for longer than you have been pretending to bowhunt. In fact its legal in most states


----------



## thesource

No, that's a misrepresentation. Its not legal for those who are not physically challenged in almost every state. Its illegal for almost everyone almost everywhere.


It occurs to me that the few of you who argue so vehemently for crossbow legallization wouldn't be able to hunt in very many places....perhaps that explains why you so adamantly defy logic and reason to push your radical crossbow ideals.

Anyway, I know I wouldn't want to hunt with a weapon that most people considered illegal. I was just wondering if you've thought about it.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No, that's a misrepresentation. Its not legal for those who are not physically challenged in almost every state. Its illegal for almost everyone almost everywhere.
> 
> 
> It occurs to me that the few of you who argue so vehemently for crossbow legallization wouldn't be able to hunt in very many places....perhaps that explains why you so adamantly defy logic and reason to push your radical crossbow ideals.
> 
> Anyway, I know I wouldn't want to hunt with a weapon that most people considered illegal. I was just wondering if you've thought about it.



I really don't care with what you want or think source. I think about it all the time and understand there are many game departments that have been swayed by illogical and greedy arguments. That sort of benighted attitude is slowly fading away. YOur attempts to call crossbow archers-who are doing the exact same things compound archers did "radical" again proves that all you have is a patently idiotic sophist argument and you cannot come up with a single rational objective argument as to why crossbows should be treated any differently than compounds.

saying they work different doesn't cut it source-and it didn't cut it during the recurve vs compound debate back in the days when you weren't pretending to be a bowhunter


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I really don't care with what you want or think source. I think about it all the time and understand there are many game departments that have been swayed by illogical and greedy arguments.


But Jim, crossbows have ALWAYS been illegal! 

Only now are greedy gamedepartments being swayed from principle by the lure of crossbow money.

Its sad that you can only hunt with your illegal weapon in OH and a few other places - we should work together to at least let them be allowed into gun season!


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Only now are greedy gamedepartments being swayed from principle by the lure of crossbow money.


Horse pucky.. put up or shut up....


----------



## 460461whatever

*Ahem*



Jim C said:


> and no one who understands archery would deny that a crossbow is closer to a compound/release than a compound release is to a trad bow
> 
> YOu still haven't made any points Source. Its greed hidden by a "worthiness" argument that has no relevance to proper game management


Jim C, I am someone who understands archery. Draw, hold, release....last I shot both compounds and traditionals, that was the basics. With a compound, you'd be holding less than peak, but not a lot less than the peak weight of my hunting recurve. With your xbow, the energy to be released can be held indefinitely by the shooting tool instead of your body. Kind of like the stored energy in a .410 shotgun shell. Which, btw, shoots an arrow about the same as a xbow, but with more sound.:wink:


----------



## willie

460461whatever said:


> Jim C, I am someone who understands archery. Draw, hold, release....last I shot both compounds and traditionals, that was the basics. With a compound, you'd be holding less than peak, but not a lot less than the peak weight of my hunting recurve.


You need a new compund....


----------



## Jim C

460461whatever said:


> Jim C, I am someone who understands archery. Draw, hold, release....last I shot both compounds and traditionals, that was the basics. With a compound, you'd be holding less than peak, but not a lot less than the peak weight of my hunting recurve. With your xbow, the energy to be released can be held indefinitely by the shooting tool instead of your body. Kind of like the stored energy in a .410 shotgun shell. Which, btw, shoots an arrow about the same as a xbow, but with more sound.:wink:



and tell me how this matters to the health of the herd or to the state governments. THe original definitions were created just to keep xbows out. They also kept compounds out. When information was available showing that exclusion was stupid, they were changed. Your comments about a 410 is moronic-one involves explosive powder, the crossbow uses the same energy as a compound bow.

you have made no point

try again


----------



## Tim4Trout

460461whatever said:


> Jim C, I am someone who understands archery. Draw, hold, release....last I shot both compounds and traditionals, that was the basics. With a compound, you'd be holding less than peak, but not a lot less than the peak weight of my hunting recurve.



I shoot a 55 lb compound with 80% let off. That equates to holding 11 lbs. I sure hope that your hunting recurve is more than 11 lbs.

With a 70 lb. compound and 65% let off one would be holding 24 1/2 lbs. I sure hope your hunting recurve is more than 24 1/2 lbs.


----------



## doctariAFC

Tim4Trout said:


> I shoot a 55 lb compound with 80% let off. That equates to holding 11 lbs. I sure hope that your hunting recurve is more than 11 lbs.
> 
> With a 70 lb. compound and 65% let off one would be holding 24 1/2 lbs. I sure hope your hunting recurve is more than 24 1/2 lbs.


That's gonna leave a mark!


----------



## thesource

Tim4Trout said:


> I shoot a 55 lb compound with 80% let off. That equates to holding 11 lbs. I sure hope that your hunting recurve is more than 11 lbs.
> 
> With a 70 lb. compound and 65% let off one would be holding 24 1/2 lbs. I sure hope your hunting recurve is more than 24 1/2 lbs.


So? I have a 72# compound that has 45% letoff. That means I hold 38.5#. That's not that far off from the hunting recurve I use at 52#.

Both are a heck of a lot harder to hold for anylength of time at full draw than a crossbow's 0#!!!!!!


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> So? I have a 72# compound that has 45% letoff. That means I hold 38.5#. That's not that far off from the hunting recurve I use at 52#.
> 
> Both are a heck of a lot harder to hold for anylength of time at full draw than a crossbow's 0#!!!!!!


Sounds like you need to get rid of that POS compound..

BTW - Not everyone hunts with a POS 45% let off compound.

75% of all bows sold today are 85% let off. Why do you think P & Y changed their rule? Besides the money that is.

Try holding your a crossbow up and maintaining a solid aim for over a minute.


----------



## willie

*60 pounds and you're holding IN PLACE (not really back) 6/10s of a pound..*

http://www.conceptarchery.com/concept99.htm


G. Fred Asbell at the First National Bowhunter Conference on why P & Y chose 65% let off - "The Pope and Young Club chose the 65% let-off as the maximum allowable for compound bows. *The intent was to set a limit, beyond which a bow departed from being a hand-held, hand-drawn weapon that enjoyed primitive status. * 

*IOW - they are saying that anything over 65% was not a "hand-held, hand-drawn weapon that" should "enjoy primitive status."*

But, it also seemed foolish to attempt to turn back the clock, and to disallow what everyone was already shooting. At the time of the Pope and Young Club fair chase amendment, 65% let-off was the upper edge of what was being manufactured and sold on a large scale. A few bows were being offered above that level, although most were experimental. 

*We became aware that some were experimenting with let-offs above 90% (which were felt at that time to be akin to a vertically held crossbow.)* A majority of the compound bows being manufactured and sold at that time were below 65%. This is where the Pope and Young Club decided to draw a line." 

*Of course P & Y had that "line" washed away did they not? Now they recognize that vertical crossbow in their contest..What some folks wont do to stay relevent and for money?*


----------



## aceoky

Good post Willie, nothing like some facts to prove what "is" what! Smoked that "hand held and hand drawn " idea, really great !!! Gotta love it and talk about leaving a mark!


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> BTW - Not everyone hunts with a POS 45% let off compound.


Beats the crap out of the one you use - oh, yea - you don't use a bow.



willie said:


> 75% of all bows sold today are 85% let off. Why do you think P & Y changed their rule? Besides the money that is.


Actually, I doubt that very much. Please show some evidence to back up your claim. The vast majority of bows on the market have 75-80% letoff. A fraction of those sold have more than that. Back it up, or shut it up.



willie said:


> Try holding your a crossbow up and maintaining a solid aim for over a minute.


Try holding a hunting bow at full draw for over a minute. Matter of fact, try just holding a hunting bow out _undrawn _for over a minute- case closed.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> *60 pounds and you're holding IN PLACE (not really back) 6/10s of a pound..*
> 
> http://www.conceptarchery.com/concept99.htm


 Intellectually dishonest. You KNOW that concepts would account for a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all compounds in the woods, yet you choose to try to spin it anyway. 

No - problem. From here on out we'll assume ALL crossbows are Exomax. 

Now, let's talk KE, launch velocity, and range advantage of a concept99 vs an exomax!


----------



## KOhunter

thesource said:
 

> Try holding a hunting bow at full draw for over a minute. Matter of fact, try just holding a hunting bow out _undrawn _for over a minute- case closed.


Source,
I think you walked right into that one...I think his whole point was that, it's harder to hold a heavier xbow than it is a compound...you just made his point. :wink:


----------



## thesource

You are buying his spin without understanding the actual physics behind the situation.

An 8# crossbow is heavier than a 5# bow - until you factor in the fact that it is buttressed at the shoulder and that the lever arm to the moment of inertia is about half the length of a bow in an outstretched arm.

You've walked into his spin.....I, on the other hand, totally understand what actually happens when you reach out with 5# solely in your left hand....and leave it there.

And, of course, all of this ignores the fact that you can always slap that puppy onto a padded shooting rail, just like a gun....LOL


----------



## TexasGuy

*Here's my humble take....*

1) I shot traditional (recurves) for 18 years.....thought compounds, release's, 
crossbows and even pin-sights were "cheating"....

2) Went to a compound, but shot barebow/no sights.....still thought 
crossbows and sights/release-aids were "cheating".....

3) Now shoot compound with sights, but finger-shooter.....don't think release-
aid is cheating now....just don't prefer them personally......

4) Crossbow is legal in Texas during rifle-season.....had to finally find out for 
myself what all the BS was about.....bought an Excalibur 
Exocet/scope/bolts......could shoot 1 1/2" groups at 20 yards from a 
bench in first 30 minutes after I got the scope dialed-in....was loud, lot of 
recoil.....kinda jarred me when shooting it....deadly accurate....shot a 
feral hog one day thru the heart....OK, no challenge there....haven't shot 
it since, but my 17 yr. old son loves it, so it's his weapon now....

5) I do not think a crossbow is unethical.....it is much more challenging than 
a rifle, but much less challenging than a compound, recurve or longbow....

6) It is not some sort of "evil, poaching weapon"....just another method of 
hunting.....

7) I like the Texas policy of having them legal during the rifle-season, but 
not during the October bow-season.....however, if they did allow them 
during all of bow season (like Ohio, for instance), I damn sure wouldn't 
freak-out or loose any sleep over it, like so many folks do......

And that's all I have to say about that! :wink:


----------



## thesource

TexasGuy said:


> 5) I do not think a crossbow is unethical.....it is much more challenging than
> a rifle, but much less challenging than a compound, recurve or longbow.



I believe that is accurate.

Thanks for the insight and your perspective.


----------



## Jim C

anyone think they can hold my crossbow steady on the x ring at 20 yards while standing longer than I can hold a 60 pound 80% letoff hoyt compound on it?


----------



## thesource

Who cares?

You just don't (or won't) get it. That doesn't matter at all.

Anyone think its not a huge advantage to shoot at a deer with a crossbow instead of a bow if you've been holding on target for minute(s)?

Good bowhunters actually practice this, by the way. Drawing slowly and holding it back for extended periods before shooting .... and its tough. You should try shooting that way instead of shooting off at the mouth.

You make a mockery of the skill and discipline of good bowhunters everywhere with your crossbow bullcrap.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Intellectually dishonest. You KNOW that concepts would account for a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all compounds in the woods, yet you choose to try to spin it anyway.
> 
> No - problem. From here on out we'll assume ALL crossbows are Exomax.
> 
> Now, let's talk KE, launch velocity, and range advantage of a concept99 vs an exomax!



more intellectual dishonesty-you whine about a cutting edge compound bow but when you compare compounds to crossbows you use the fastest crossbow available and compare it to average compound bows. The exomax isn't even legal in the biggest xbow state in the Union.

NIce try source-you still can't prove xbows have an advantage and you never will


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Who cares?
> 
> You just don't (or won't) get it. That doesn't matter at all.
> 
> Anyone think its not a huge advantage to shoot at a deer with a crossbow instead of a bow if you've been holding on target for minute(s)?
> 
> Good bowhunters actually practice this, by the way. Drawing slowly and holding it back for extended periods before shooting .... and its tough. You should try shooting that way instead of shooting off at the mouth.
> 
> You make a mockery of the skill and discipline of good bowhunters everywhere with your crossbow bullcrap.


anyone think someone who has never hunted with a crossbow really is in no position to lecture us who have what this "advantage" is. I can hold a compound legal for hunting in ohio at full draw for at least 5 minutes. No one has ever been able to prove crossbows have this alleged advantage you constantly bray about


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> anyone think someone who has never hunted with a crossbow really is in no position to lecture us who have what this "advantage" is. I can hold a compound legal for hunting in ohio at full draw for at least 5 minutes. No one has ever been able to prove crossbows have this alleged advantage you constantly bray about


You slime around everything to try and push your radical agenda.

_"I can hold a compound legal for hunting in ohio at full draw for at least 5 minutes"_ - Big Deal. Let's see you hold back a compound that has equivalent KE to a Pheonix for 5 minutes, then try to hit the broadside of a barn. 

Your incessant "can't prove" statements are just slimy coverups for what we all know to be true. Just like we "can't prove" OJ is a murdererer.

I have not hunted with a crossbow, but I have shot them, and I have hunted with an 8 1/2# shotgun, had to hold it up and pointed for minutes on end, and made the shot....it is a heck of a lot simpler than holding a 4 1/2# compound, even undrawn, up for the same length of time.

You are not fooling ANYONE - we see through your bullcrap.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You slime around everything to try and push your radical agenda.
> 
> _"I can hold a compound legal for hunting in ohio at full draw for at least 5 minutes"_ - Big Deal. Let's see you hold back a compound that has equivalent KE to a Pheonix for 5 minutes, then try to hit the broadside of a barn.
> 
> Your incessant "can't prove" statements are just slimy coverups for what we all know to be true. Just like we "can't prove" OJ is a murdererer.
> 
> I have not hunted with a crossbow, but I have shot them, and I have hunted with an 8 1/2# shotgun, had to hold it up and pointed for minutes on end, and made the shot....it is a heck of a lot simpler than holding a 4 1/2# compound, even undrawn, up for the same length of time.
> 
> You are not fooling ANYONE - we see through your bullcrap.


thanks for admitting your are unlearned on this topic. actually I see almost everyone on this board seeing through your bullcrap source.


----------



## thesource

Dodging again, Jim?

Could you hold back a bow with equivalent KE to a Pheonix for 5 minutes, Jim?

Can You?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Dodging again, Jim?
> 
> Could you hold back a bow with equivalent KE to a Pheonix for 5 minutes, Jim?
> 
> Can You?


what are you blathering about source-it depends on the bow.


do you have a salient argument as to why crossbows should not be allowed in compound season that is based on an objective proof that objective harm would result?

look source-your feelings are not a rational ground to exclude one type of bow from another

can you come up with something that an objective person who really doesn't care about your religious views of bows would find relevant


----------



## thesource

Still dodging?

Why not just admit you have understated the difference between bow and crossbow, minimized the advantage that held at full draw gives, and misrepresented these things and others to push your extremist crossbow agenda?

Don't worry, you don't actually have to say anything - everyone already knows it.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Still dodging?
> 
> Why not just admit you have understated the difference between bow and crossbow, minimized the advantage that held at full draw gives, and misrepresented these things and others to push your extremist crossbow agenda?
> 
> Don't worry, you don't actually have to say anything - everyone already knows it.



poor source-doesn't know crossbows, doesn't know bowhunting and he wants to lecture us on a subject he is ignorant of. extremist would be an agenda never tried before-we are doing exactly what compound advocates did. That means we are TRADITIONALISTS

give it up source-your dodging as to the real issue is pathetic. We all know why you hate xbows-they bring more people into bowhunting and you hate that for one or both of two reasons

1) you want to ban bowhunting

2) or you don't want anyone else bowhunting

both attitudes suck


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> 1) you want to ban bowhunting
> 
> 2) or you don't want anyone else bowhunting


Ridiculous and melodramatic.

It should be obvious that the last thing any bowhunter wants is bowhunting banned. The second to last thing a bowhunter wants is to see bowhunting ruined, diluted and corrupted to be beyond recognizable. The second appears to be your agenda. I want to see bowhunting endure, just as it is or better.

To the second point - wrong again. I want everyone else bowhunting.

I do not how you can look at yourself in the mirror after telling such unabashed LIES. You should be ashamed of yourself....



By the way, I see you are still doding the draw and hold challenge.....figures.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Ridiculous and melodramatic.
> 
> It should be obvious that the last thing any bowhunter wants is bowhunting banned. The second to last thing a bowhunter wants is to see bowhunting ruined, diluted and corrupted to be beyond recognizable. The second appears to be your agenda. I want to see bowhunting endure, just as it is or better.
> 
> To the second point - wrong again. I want everyone else bowhunting.
> 
> I do not how you can look at yourself in the mirror after telling such unabashed LIES. You should be ashamed of yourself....
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I see you are still doding the draw and hold challenge.....figures.


many bowhunters-especially those who support the anti xbow nonsense of PBS and Poop and DUNG want less people bowhunting. They join the anti xbow jihad because in their minds there are ALREADY too many people bowhunting and they don't want ANYONE else in what they perceive as a crowded season

Of course there are a few who have personal ego problems who are against xbows because they feel that the inclusion of xbows might cause confusion by others over the excluders' standing in their eyes

how is bowhunting ruined for YOU based on what BOW another man USES? it must be a psychological issue because I certainly don't worry HOW you hunt


----------



## thesource

Its a matter of PRINCIPLE, first and foremost.

By the way, I see you're same silly arguements are getting HAMMERED over on the bowhunting forum .... LOL


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Its a matter of PRINCIPLE, first and foremost.
> 
> By the way, I see you're same silly arguements are getting HAMMERED over on the bowhunting forum .... LOL



hammered-by someone who claims xbows are excluded for the SAME reasons GUNS are? LOL-

the babbling of the unlearned is hardly hammered. I have never come close to being hammered on this issue because your side has no facts

principle is the BS facade racists used to hide behind

I WANT FACTS about why your desire to LIMIT the recreational opportunities of others should have primacy over their desire to engage in NON HARMFUL recreational sport

your principle doesn't trump another person's CHOICE

OH BTW SOurce-the anti xbow side is the one getting hammered on that thread


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Intellectually dishonest. You KNOW that concepts would account for a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all compounds in the woods, yet you choose to try to spin it anyway.
> 
> No - problem. From here on out we'll assume ALL crossbows are Exomax.
> 
> Now, let's talk KE, launch velocity, and range advantage of a concept99 vs an exomax!


Not all.

You missed my point.

P & Y said that anything over 90% let off was "akin to a vertical crossbow" and now the Concept99 is legal for their contest.

They changed their contest rules because they saw they were becoming a dinosaur club and that money that rolled in with the over 65% guys sure helped too,

Hypocrits..

BTW - I know enough people in the archery manufacturing game to say for certain the % of 85 bows is correct.

Take Jim up on his bet. I'll take some of your money too.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> I have not hunted with a crossbow, but I have shot them, *and I have hunted with an 8 1/2# shotgun, had to hold it up and pointed for minutes on end, and made the shot....*it is a heck of a lot simpler than holding a 4 1/2# compound, even undrawn, up for the same length of time.


*WHOA!!*

I've seen a couple posts by you that said that you did not gun hunt. You said that you only "bowhunted".

Now, which is it?

Liars a have to have good memories don't they?


.


----------



## 30-30

As long as it contributes to the likelyhood of a quick, clean kill, it is fair chase.
But, this is not true if the animal has no way of escape.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> *WHOA!!*
> 
> I've seen a couple posts by you that said that you did not gun hunt. You said that you only "bowhunted".
> 
> Now, which is it?
> 
> Liars a have to have good memories don't they?
> 
> 
> .


You are fibbing, yet again.... I have NEVER posted that I do not gun hunt, because I do gun hunt and enjoy doing it.

You keep trying, but failing. Why don't you ever tell the truth?


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> BTW - I know enough people in the archery manufacturing game to say for certain the % of 85 bows is correct.


A quick review of Cabela's shows of all the models available, NONE have a letoff over 80%. Many have a 65% option, of course, so you can make "the book" without an asterisk.

65%LO - 12 models
70%LO - 5 models
75%LO - 10 models
80%LO - 22 models

Over 80% - 0

While certainly no definitive, this is yet another indication that you will stretch the truth about anything and everything to push your crossbow radiclism.

You can't be trusted, simple as that....for anything.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> A quick review of Cabela's shows of all the models available, NONE have a letoff over 80%. Many have a 65% option, of course, so you can make "the book" without an asterisk.
> 
> 65%LO - 12 models
> 70%LO - 5 models
> 75%LO - 10 models
> 80%LO - 22 models
> 
> Over 80% - 0


Well, as much a I hate to admit it, you are right in this case. 

I went back and looked at my last email from an archery manufacturing friend and it was 75% of all bows sold today are *80% let off.*

I was wrong by 5% let off.

So instead of a bowhunter shooting 60 pounds holding back 9 pounds he is holding back 12 pounds....


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> You are fibbing, yet again.... I have NEVER posted that I do not gun hunt, because I do gun hunt and enjoy doing it.
> 
> You keep trying, but failing. Why don't you ever tell the truth?


My... I'll guess I'll have to go do a search and find them....


----------



## 460461whatever

*Jim C, I'll try again...*



Jim C said:


> and tell me how this matters to the health of the herd or to the state governments. THe original definitions were created just to keep xbows out. They also kept compounds out. When information was available showing that exclusion was stupid, they were changed. Your comments about a 410 is moronic-one involves explosive powder, the crossbow uses the same energy as a compound bow.
> 
> you have made no point
> 
> try again


Maybe you've sharpened your senses since my last attempt.

The stored energy in a shotgun and a crossbow are contained by something other than your arm, or any other part of your body for that matter.

Here's a muscle-builder for those who can't hold a xbow at the shoulder for a minute: Go prairie dog shooting with a bull barrel rifle taking close range shots (<100yds) off hand. After the first close range shots, those little guys will keep their heads down for a minute or more. That's a 10+# gun with an actual large amount of the weight at or beyond your off hand. Keeping that 8# xbow at ready for a minute will seem like a breeze.

Who wants to shoot my 80# 50% Infinity?


----------



## willie

460461whatever said:


> Here's a muscle-builder for those who can't hold a xbow at the shoulder for a minute: Go prairie dog shooting with a bull barrel rifle taking close range shots (<100yds) off hand. After the first close range shots, those little guys will keep their heads down for a minute or more. That's a 10+# gun with an actual large amount of the weight at or beyond your off hand. Keeping that 8# xbow at ready for a minute will seem like a breeze.



http://www.coyotejakes.com/doghunt1.htm


http://www.coyotejakes.com/gallery.htm



.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> Well, as much a I hate to admit it, you are right in this case.


LOL - I'm ALWAYS right...usually you are just too stubborn to admit it.


----------



## willie

It is still 75% of all bows sold today are 80% let off.

How long can one hold back 12 pounds on a 60 pound bow?

Answer - a LONG time..


----------



## willie

BTW source,

How many models of *CROSSBOWS* were in the Cabela's *ARCHERY* catalog?

LOL..


----------



## Croxby

*how long?*

With my 80% letoff compounds, I can hold a 70lb peak weight bow at fulldraw with *ONE FINGER*.


----------



## Croxby

willie said:


> BTW source,
> 
> How many models of *CROSSBOWS* were in the Cabela's *ARCHERY* catalog?
> 
> LOL..


better than that check out

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...424&parentType=category&cmCat=MainCatcat21424

it's under *BOWS* 

Source shot himself in the foot again. He produces the Cabelas Archery Catalog as proof he's right yet it belied him.

LOL!


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> It is still 75% of all bows sold today are 80% let off.
> 
> How long can one hold back 12 pounds on a 60 pound bow?
> 
> Answer - a LONG time..


Tell us all how long you can hold back a 60# bow, Willie .... Tell us.

Tell us how holding that drawn bow for however long you can manage influences the shot when you finally decide to pull the trigger, Willie .... Tell us.


Now, tell us there is no differnce between that and a crossbow...go on, say it.

NO bowhunter will believe you.


----------



## Croxby

thesource said:


> Tell us all how long you can hold back a 60# bow, Willie .... Tell us.
> 
> Tell us how holding that drawn bow for however long you can manage influences the shot when you finally decide to pull the trigger, Willie .... Tell us.
> 
> 
> Now, tell us there is no differnce between that and a crossbow...go on, say it.
> 
> NO bowhunter will believe you.


I think it's funny TheSource says no bowhunter will believe you (willie)

None of us believe TheSource is a bowhunter.

please tell us your pretended bowhunting experience. We already know you can't afford decent equipment.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> BTW source,
> 
> How many models of *CROSSBOWS* were in the Cabela's *ARCHERY* catalog?
> 
> LOL..


16.

Of those, all but 3 shoot over 300 fps, HALF shoot 320 fps, 4 shoot over 340, max is 350! 

Yikes.


----------



## thesource

Croxby said:


> None of us believe TheSource is a bowhunter.
> 
> please tell us your pretended bowhunting experience. We already know you can't afford decent equipment.


LOL - you joined TODAY - what do you mean "us". LOL

I smell another DougK attack......I'll be keeping my eye on you, Croxby...LOL


----------



## Croxby

apparently you are more deluded than you already appear.

how do you work as a "chemical engineer" posting so much? let me guess-you really don't work at all.

kinda like you really don't bowhunt-huh?


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Tell us all how long you can hold back a 60# bow, Willie .... Tell us.
> 
> Tell us how holding that drawn bow for however long you can manage influences the shot when you finally decide to pull the trigger, Willie .... Tell us.


Well now... aren't we being funny? You know that I can no longer draw a vertical bow back.

BUT.. when I could I could have held that 9 - 12 pounds back for at least 2 minutes, maybe more.

Up until the last year I shot and hunted with a vertical bow I shot 72 to 77 pound pull.Probably one of the reasons my shoulders are gone.

A bowhunter would have to be a wuss if they can't hold back 9 - 12 pounds for a couple of minutes.



> Now, tell us there is no differnce between that and a crossbow...go on, say it.


Lets see.. one is drawn a hour or more before shooting it and the other can be drawn 1 to 6 minutes (depending on weight and let off). Both can be drawn before a deer is within range. 



> NO bowhunter will believe you.


There you go again.... trying to speak for everyone....when was the election?


----------



## Croxby

I'm still waiting for him to tell us his bowhunting experience.

the Cabelas Hunting Video game does not count.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> 16.
> 
> Of those, all but 3 shoot over 300 fps, HALF shoot 320 fps, 4 shoot over 340, max is 350!
> 
> Yikes.


How much speed does it take to kill a deer?

But, that wasn't the question was it?

Crossbows are in the Cabela's ARCHERY catalog and listed on their website as BOWS. Hmmm?


----------



## willie

Croxby said:


> I'm still waiting for him to tell us his bowhunting experience.
> 
> the Cabelas Hunting Video game does not count.


Good luck.. 

We've waited ever since he got on here.


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> BUT.. when I could I could have held that 9 - 12 pounds back for at least 2 minutes, maybe more.


Could you? And still shot with accuracy? Maybe - maybe not. 2 minutes at full draw is possible for some, but certainly detrimental to accuracy. Things start shaking and quivering .... you know.

Oh wait - you don't. You shoot a crossbow.



willie said:


> A bowhunter would have to be a wuss if they can't hold back 9 - 12 pounds for a couple of minutes.


 

Now .... THAT is rich, considering you hold *ZERO *pounds. Actually, even that is not technically correct. That is rich since you do not even touch a bowstring when you shoot!

What a joke!




willie said:


> Lets see.. one is drawn a hour or more before shooting it and the other can be drawn 1 to 6 minutes (depending on weight and let off). Both can be drawn before a deer is within range.


Another joke. Whatever - I suppose you could draw with a compound every once in a blue moon when a deer is out of range and hope it wanders into range. You ain't gonna make a living on that!

No, this is simply more Willie-credibility straining misinformation and half truth. EVERYONE knows that the vast majority - VAST majority - of deer killed with bows have been drawn on in the presence, within range.

Its not a lie, Willie - but it is close.


----------



## Croxby

willie said:


> Good luck..
> 
> We've waited ever since he got on here.


it's amazing that it posts considering it lacks any credibility.

all we know it doesn't hunt or work.

is this an ARA?

***got it***ox


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> Good luck..
> 
> We've waited ever since he got on here.


Another Willie lie.

I've told you exactly how many deer I've killed with a bow, how many were bucks, and a raft of other details.

If you want to claim I haven't proven it...fine. I don't care.

To infer that I have never provided that information is just another Wil-LIE.


----------



## Croxby

thesource said:


> Another Willie lie.
> 
> I've told you exactly how many deer I've killed with a bow, how many were bucks, and a raft of other details.
> 
> If you want to claim I haven't proven it...fine. I don't care.
> 
> To infer that I have never provided that information is just another Wil-LIE.


you never explain how you can work and post so much.

because you don't work-and no one believes you hunt with any bow at all. Given your gross lack of knowledge on firearms that is only exceeded by your gross lack of knowledge on archery, I doubt you hunt at all.

you make up stories and everyone knows that. Does it really live in NY? We don't know that either.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Could you? And still shot with accuracy? Maybe - maybe not. 2 minutes at full draw is possible for some, but certainly detrimental to accuracy. Things start shaking and quivering .... you know.
> 
> Oh wait - you don't. You shoot a crossbow.


Sorry, bub.. you lose again.

I shot and hunted with recurves for 33 years. I shot well enough to shoot on a factory 3D team. I won a couple of state shoots and one national in my class.

I've bowkilled in excess of 100 big game animals.

I KNOW what it takes and I know what I could do.

Now you can laugh at my disability now, but I can assure you I could take you to the cleaners in any shoot that you wanted to take me up on.

As has been asked why don't you give us your bowhunting shooting credentials?



> Another joke. Whatever - I suppose you could draw with a compound every once in a blue moon when a deer is out of range and hope it wanders into range. You ain't gonna make a living on that!


I can see that you don't hunt much, if at all. One can see a deer making his weay towards the stand at distance.. make the draw and wait.

2 to 3 minutes is nothing when holding back an 80% let off 50 to 60 pound bow.



> No, this is simply more Willie-credibility straining misinformation and half truth. EVERYONE knows that the vast majority - VAST majority - of deer killed with bows have been drawn on in the presence, within range.
> Its not a lie, Willie - but it is close.


Your lack of bowhunting knowledge is laughable..


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> Another Willie lie.
> 
> I've told you exactly how many deer I've killed with a bow, how many were bucks, and a raft of other details.
> 
> If you want to claim I haven't proven it...fine. I don't care.
> 
> To infer that I have never provided that information is just another Wil-LIE.


Nope don't.

Post up your BS for all to see..


----------



## Croxby

thesource said:


> Could you? And still shot with accuracy? Maybe - maybe not. 2 minutes at full draw is possible for some, but certainly detrimental to accuracy. Things start shaking and quivering .... you know.
> 
> Oh wait - you don't. You shoot a crossbow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now .... THAT is rich, considering you hold *ZERO *pounds. Actually, even that is not technically correct. That is rich since you do not even touch a bowstring when you shoot!
> 
> What a joke!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another joke. Whatever - I suppose you could draw with a compound every once in a blue moon when a deer is out of range and hope it wanders into range. You ain't gonna make a living on that!
> 
> No, this is simply more Willie-credibility straining misinformation and half truth. EVERYONE knows that the vast majority - VAST majority - of deer killed with bows have been drawn on in the presence, within range.
> 
> Its not a lie, Willie - but it is close.


“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"-Albert Einstein

****DOUGK PERHAPS YOU SHOULD HEED ALBERT'S QUOTE AS WELL ****OX


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> Nope don't.
> 
> Post up your BS for all to see..



GO FIND IT.

You are so lazy....


----------



## thesource

Croxby said:


> “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"-Albert Einstein
> 
> ****DOUGK PERHAPS YOU SHOULD HEED ALBERT'S QUOTE AS WELL ****OX




LOL - Now THAT is funny, Ox!:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Another Willie lie.
> 
> I've told you exactly how many deer I've killed with a bow, how many were bucks, and a raft of other details.
> 
> If you want to claim I haven't proven it...fine. I don't care.
> 
> To infer that I have never provided that information is just another Wil-LIE.



Willie exists. I know who he is
People I know and respect have met him
People I know and respect vouch for him taking deer.
I have people on this forum who will vouch for me including world famous archers
Tink has seen my name in a book written by one of the most famous big game hunters in Africa
Revival's been to my house-seen trophies on the wall

I trust Willie when he says he has taken over 100 game trophies
I have seen pictures of Willy with lots of big deer.

Now source, I don't have any way of knowing if you are telling the truth
I know what you say about xbows does not coincide what I have learned over 34 years of shooting crossbows

I know what you say about compound bows does not comport with the reality I have experienced from shooting compounds since 1982 or so. 

I have hunted for more than 25 years with bows-if you count small game-35 years and what you say does not square with what I have dealt with in that period.

I have taught over 500 people how to shoot bows-several were on junior all star, national or world teams. what you say about learning how to shoot doesnt make sense to me as a NAA Level II or an NFAA Master Coach.

In sum source, you might believe what you say is true but nothing I know supports what you say -indeed most of my experience suggests you really have no clue about what you talk about when it comes to crossbows or shooting various bows


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> Now you can laugh at my disability now, but I can assure you I could take you to the cleaners in any shoot that you wanted to take me up on.


I haven't laughed at your disability. I laugh at your flawed logic that assumes everyone should enjoy the advantage you have been given with your crossbow in bowseason.

I guess we'll never know how we would have fared with broadheads from recurves at 25 yards, now will we? 

I have a challenge for you, Willie. I have never failed to recover a deer that I have shot at in 20 years of bowhunting. Can you say the same?



willie said:


> I can see that you don't hunt much, if at all. One can see a deer making his weay towards the stand at distance.. make the draw and wait.


I can see you don't hunt much, if at all, in the kind of cover that I do. By the time you see them they are on top of you - inside 30-40 yards. You better know what you are doing....and you better draw at the RIGHT moment....not too late, but certainly not too early either.



willie said:


> 2 to 3 minutes is nothing when holding back an 80% let off 50 to 60 pound bow.


I think that is another Wil-LIE. I don't know very many people who can hold a 60# bow at full draw for 3 minutes, let alone hold it for 3 minutes and make an accurate shot. I think you are misrepresenting again - it sure wouldn't be the first time.


----------



## Jim C

Why does it bother you so much Source that you have to whine about xbows. 

You cannot prove that xbows have an advantage over compounds

why don't you stop playing games and putting out facades and pretexts for your true reasons.

its amusing watching someone who has NEVER hunted with an xbow try to lecture us that these things are so unfair compared to modern compound bows


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Willie exists. I know who he is
> People I know and respect have met him
> People I know and respect vouch for him taking deer.
> I have people on this forum who will vouch for me including world famous archers
> Tink has seen my name in a book written by one of the most famous big game hunters in Africa
> Revival's been to my house-seen trophies on the wall
> 
> I trust Willie when he says he has taken over 100 game trophies
> I have seen pictures of Willy with lots of big deer.
> 
> Now source, I don't have any way of knowing if you are telling the truth
> I know what you say about xbows does not coincide what I have learned over 34 years of shooting crossbows
> 
> I know what you say about compound bows does not comport with the reality I have experienced from shooting compounds since 1982 or so.
> 
> I have hunted for more than 25 years with bows-if you count small game-35 years and what you say does not square with what I have dealt with in that period.
> 
> I have taught over 500 people how to shoot bows-several were on junior all star, national or world teams. what you say about learning how to shoot doesnt make sense to me as a NAA Level II or an NFAA Master Coach.
> 
> In sum source, you might believe what you say is true but nothing I know supports what you say -indeed most of my experience suggests you really have no clue about what you talk about when it comes to crossbows or shooting various bows


Who cares?

Who cares what you think, what you believe, what your crossbow experience tells you?

I have bowhunted nearly as long as you (20+ years) and MY experience says you and Wil-LIE are full of it, that you are twisting and misrepresenting whatever bowhunting experience you might have (none, for all I know) to push your radical crossbow extremist agenda.

We'll have to let the people decide on their own...you get no free passes, regardless of your "archery credentials."

Again - who cares?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> its amusing watching someone who has NEVER hunted with an xbow try to lecture us that these things are so unfair compared to modern compound bows


What is amusing is to watch those who say they have experience with crossbows make up unbelievable stuff and expect everyone to swallow it.

Firt you say you can hold back a legal OH crossbow for 1 minute (a puny 35 or 40#, no doubt). now Macho Wil-LIE says he could hold back 60# for 3 minutes if he weren't disabled....and anyone who can't is a wuss! 

The stuff y'all come up with is ridiculous, and all it does is solidify the VAST and fundamental differences between compounds and crossbows.

Y'all's credibility is sinking - fast!


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Who cares?
> 
> Who cares what you think, what you believe, what your crossbow experience tells you?
> 
> I have bowhunted nearly as long as you (20+ years) and MY experience says you and Wil-LIE are full of it, that you are twisting and misrepresenting whatever bowhunting experience you might have (none, for all I know) to push your radical crossbow extremist agenda.
> 
> We'll have to let the people decide on their own...you get no free passes, regardless of your "archery credentials."
> 
> Again - who cares?



you obviously do given that almost all your posts on this board are nothing but xbow bashing and trying to prove you have the standing to debate Willie or me.

you obviously care since that is your only activity on archery talk source


----------



## JAVI

I’d lay odds that if you polled the grass roots bow hunter. Not the AT member but the real majority in bow hunting; the guy who takes his bow from the closet two days before the season and flings two arrows at a paper plate. You’d find that they simply don’t care about the crossbow or Pope & Young. And them ol'boys would laugh at the idea of a CLUB setting the rule they have to hunt by....

As for the majority of bow hunters being against crossbows in archery season, I got to laugh… cause the majority just doesn’t care… The vocal minority is what we’re hearing from, not the grass roots hunter…


----------



## willie

Originally Posted by thesource


> I haven't laughed at your disability.


Sure you did. You said - 



> *Could you?* And still shot with accuracy? Maybe - maybe not. 2 minutes at full draw is possible for some, but certainly detrimental to accuracy. Things start shaking and quivering .... you know.
> 
> *Oh wait - you don't.* You shoot a crossbow. [/qoute]
> 
> Just ONE of your snide arse remarks.
> 
> I've lost two animals over the 38 years that I have been bowhunting. That is two out of 100+.
> 
> Now you say that you've never lost an animal. I've always said that anyone who could say that hasn't hunted much or very long or shot at many animals.
> 
> In your supposedly 20 years of bowhunting how many have you shot at?
> 
> How many did you kill?
> 
> List them..


----------



## willie

JAVI said:


> I’d lay odds that if you polled the grass roots bow hunter. Not the AT member but the real majority in bow hunting; the guy who takes his bow from the closet two days before the season and flings two arrows at a paper plate. You’d find that they simply don’t care about the crossbow or Pope & Young. And them ol'boys would laugh at the idea of a CLUB setting the rule they have to hunt by....
> 
> As for the majority of bow hunters being against crossbows in archery season, I got to laugh… cause the majority just doesn’t care… The vocal minority is what we’re hearing from, not the grass roots hunter…


You'd win that bet...


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> What is amusing is to watch those who say they have experience with crossbows make up unbelievable stuff and expect everyone to swallow it.
> 
> Firt you say you can hold back a legal OH crossbow for 1 minute (a puny 35 or 40#, no doubt). now Macho Wil-LIE says he could hold back 60# for 3 minutes if he weren't disabled....and anyone who can't is a wuss!
> 
> The stuff y'all come up with is ridiculous, and all it does is solidify the VAST and fundamental differences between compounds and crossbows.
> 
> Y'all's credibility is sinking - fast!



60 pounds at 80% let off is holding back 12 pounds. Wowee!

If you cant hold that back for 3 minutes then I'll bet the ranch you are a snap shooter with a recurve. 

One more time - Mike Beatty did it for three minutes waiting on his world record non-typical (with an asterisk) to get within range.

Mike sure didn't look like Arnold Swartzenegger to me.


----------



## aceoky

willie said:


> You'd win that bet...



NO doubt about it!


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> I've lost two animals over the 38 years that I have been bowhunting. That is two out of 100+.
> 
> Now you say that you've never lost an animal. I've always said that anyone who could say that hasn't hunted much or very long or shot at many animals.
> 
> In your supposedly 20 years of bowhunting how many have you shot at?
> 
> How many did you kill?
> 
> List them..


I have killed 24 whitetails, 21 of them bucks, they range from a couple spikes to a 11pt that grossed 131+. I have hit every one, killed every one, recovered every one, and eaten every one.

You will not see me bring up totals or scores without being pestered to he!! and back, like you have been doing, because I think it is uncouth to flaunt the bounty you have recieved.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> I have killed 24 whitetails, 21 of them bucks, they range from a couple spikes to a 11pt that grossed 131+. I have hit every one, killed every one, recovered every one, and eaten every one.
> 
> You will not see me bring up totals or scores without being pestered to he!! and back, like you have been doing, because I think it is uncouth to flaunt the bounty you have recieved.


All bow kills?


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> All bow kills?



NO remember all his shotgun experise about "blowing deer off their feet" at short range


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> 60 pounds at 80% let off is holding back 12 pounds. Wowee!



I find it ironic that you think this feat is no big deal, yet you cannot do it. 

I am empathetic that injury prevents you from bowhunting, but it seems to me that you do not have a viable position here.

3 minutes holding back any bow _hurts_, and most people cannot do it. You make think that 12# seems small, but it is a hexk of a lot more than NO #, and the weight of a bow extended on a lever (your left arm, for right handed shooters) presents a tremendous amount of torque on your shoulder.

I have personally had at least 2 bucks get away because I was incapable of holding back a compound indefinitely - I couldn't tell you if it was 2 minutes, 4 minutes .... it felt like an hour. But inevitably you reach a point that you realize that even if you could hold it back longer, you can no longer ensure the accuracy required to close the deal. So you let down and the buck is gone. Happens with a bow - doesn't happen with a crossbow.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I find it ironic that you think this feat is no big deal, yet you cannot do it.
> 
> I am empathetic that injury prevents you from bowhunting, but it seems to me that you do not have a viable position here.
> 
> 3 minutes holding back any bow _hurts_, and most people cannot do it. You make think that 12# seems small, but it is a hexk of a lot more than NO #, and the weight of a bow extended on a lever (your left arm, for right handed shooters) presents a tremendous amount of torque on your shoulder.
> 
> I have personally had at least 2 bucks get away because I was incapable of holding back a compound indefinitely - I couldn't tell you if it was 2 minutes, 4 minutes .... it felt like an hour. But inevitably you reach a point that you realize that even if you could hold it back longer, you can no longer ensure the accuracy required to close the deal. So you let down and the buck is gone. Happens with a bow - doesn't happen with a crossbow.


how is this relevant source? you hunt with the bow you want and stop whining about other peoples' choices in bows

I have also had chances I couldn't take because I had a crossbow rather than a compound bow

in the long run it really doesn't matter


----------



## thesource

Not relevant? Only in the eyes of a crossbow activist.

It shows that there remain large differences between bows that are hand held and hand drawn, and those that are not.

It shows that crossbow radicals lie when the say drawing in the presence is not a big deal and that crossbows are the same as compounds.

It shows yet again that stringguns are advantaged over bows.

More evidence that crossbows do not belong in bowseasons.


----------



## thesource

JAVI said:


> As for the majority of bow hunters being against crossbows in archery season, I got to laugh… cause the majority just doesn’t care… The vocal minority is what we’re hearing from, not the grass roots hunter…



Then you should pop into the bowhunting forum and look at a thread titled "August D&DH crossbow article" ..... Jim is finding out the hard way that when the bowhunting population at large (as opposed to crossbowers in the crossbow forum or the smaller group of rights activists we tend to find here) gets confronted with crossbows, they react strongly in oppposition to them.

There are probably 30 replies against to every reply for ..... the "crossbow guru" is taking a verbal beating and looking quite foolish.


----------



## willie

thesource said:


> I find it ironic that you think this feat is no big deal, yet you cannot do it.
> 
> I am empathetic that injury prevents you from bowhunting, but it seems to me that you do not have a viable position here.
> 
> 3 minutes holding back any bow _hurts_, and most people cannot do it. You make think that 12# seems small, but it is a hexk of a lot more than NO #, and the weight of a bow extended on a lever (your left arm, for right handed shooters) presents a tremendous amount of torque on your shoulder.


Let me say it one more time.. 

When I was physically able to draw a bow back I could do it.

LOTS of bowhunters could do it.

The 12 pounds is distributed between both arms - one pushing and one pulling (holding).

In the case of a crossbow the forearm is held up by one arm. It matter not that the butt is anchored, all the weight is on that one arm.



> I have personally had at least 2 bucks get away because I was incapable of holding back a compound indefinitely - I couldn't tell you if it was 2 minutes, 4 minutes .... it felt like an hour. .


I thought you said you only hunt with a recurve and a slug gun?

Were those 24 deer all bow kils? If so, what kind of a bow?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Not relevant? Only in the eyes of a crossbow activist.
> 
> It shows that there remain large differences between bows that are hand held and hand drawn, and those that are not.
> 
> It shows that crossbow radicals lie when the say drawing in the presence is not a big deal and that crossbows are the same as compounds.
> 
> It shows yet again that stringguns are advantaged over bows.
> 
> More evidence that crossbows do not belong in bowseasons.


we could apply that to crossbows too

again, how does it hurt you-do you consider yourself in competition with fellow hunters? are you worried someone else might get your deer

the fact is that you think you are more worthy than someone else and that is the root of your problem


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Then you should pop into the bowhunting forum and look at a thread titled "August D&DH crossbow article" ..... Jim is finding out the hard way that when the bowhunting population at large (as opposed to crossbowers in the crossbow forum or the smaller group of rights activists we tend to find here) gets confronted with crossbows, they react strongly in oppposition to them.
> 
> There are probably 30 replies against to every reply for ..... the "crossbow guru" is taking a verbal beating and looking quite foolish.



as usual SOurce is lying again-there are a few people who repeat the same tired nonsense while others say it really doesn't mantter or if compounds are in, so should compounds. the best was a person who said I probably "dropped out of school"-that was funny


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by thesource
> Not relevant? Only in the eyes of a crossbow activist.
> 
> It shows that there remain large differences between bows that are hand held and hand drawn, and those that are not.
> 
> It shows that crossbow radicals lie when the say drawing in the presence is not a big deal and that crossbows are the same as compounds.
> 
> It shows yet again that stringguns are advantaged over bows.
> 
> More evidence that crossbows do not belong in bowseasons.
> 
> 
> we could apply that to crossbows too



we ARE talking about crossbows - Freudian slip, Jim? LOL


----------



## thesource

willie said:


> I thought you said you only hunt with a recurve and a slug gun?
> 
> Were those 24 deer all bow kils? If so, what kind of a bow?


I switched to a recurve 5 years ago. Most of those deer were killed with compounds, but the last 5 were killed with a recurve - a 52# Ben Pearson Citation II if you need the specifics.


----------



## 460461whatever

*Rifle rests???*



willie said:


> http://www.coyotejakes.com/doghunt1.htm
> 
> 
> http://www.coyotejakes.com/gallery.htm
> 
> 
> 
> .


Willie, thanks for the nice pictures. But, what do they have to do with shooting off-hand? Oh, I get it, you can set a xbow on it and shoot from one of those. Try that with a vertical bow, what most probably consider a "real" bow.

Willie, I'm sorry that you can no longer shoot a vertical bow. Which shoulder is shot? If it's your string hand, there are people that shoot/hunt successfully using their mouth to draw and release. BTW, it's conditions like this that I fully support the MN law allowing the use of xbows by the handicapped during the entire archery season. I would, also, like to see xbows allowed during the rifle season. I believe the main reason that our DNR hasn't opened that opportunity yet is because we, as hunters, do not police ourselves enough as a group and the poaching group would grow with the expanded priviledge.


----------



## Jim C

460461whatever said:


> Willie, thanks for the nice pictures. But, what do they have to do with shooting off-hand? Oh, I get it, you can set a xbow on it and shoot from one of those. Try that with a vertical bow, what most probably consider a "real" bow.
> 
> Willie, I'm sorry that you can no longer shoot a vertical bow. Which shoulder is shot? If it's your string hand, there are people that shoot/hunt successfully using their mouth to draw and release. BTW, it's conditions like this that I fully support the MN law allowing the use of xbows by the handicapped during the entire archery season. I would, also, like to see xbows allowed during the rifle season. I believe the main reason that our DNR hasn't opened that opportunity yet is because we, as hunters, do not police ourselves enough as a group and the poaching group would grow with the expanded priviledge.



there is no evidence that treating crossbows properly as archery equipment in Ohio led to increased poaching. MOst poachers use 22 caliber rifles


----------



## 460461whatever

*I agree*



Jim C said:


> there is no evidence that treating crossbows properly as archery equipment in Ohio led to increased poaching. MOst poachers use 22 caliber rifles


Jim C, I haven't polled "most" poachers, but you're probably correct about their use of .22's. My theory is based on my knowledge of what many northern MN "hunters" consider is their priviledge. And that is the taking of deer a day or two early with their rifles. I usually bowhunted right up to the day before rifle season, and from the day after. Rifle shots could be heard in the forrest all around me as early as 45 minutes BEFORE sunrise. When I called the game warden, his reply was, "they're probably just sighting in their guns". ukey: That, in itself, is illegal within five days before the season, unless you go the a registered range. I know the closest one of those was at least 35 miles south.
Give those guys and their buddies a silent weapon that takes very little practice to use effectively, and it is possible their ranks will grow.
Anyway, that is my theory as to why the DNR hasn't allowed them as a legal weapon to be used with a firearm license.


----------



## Jim C

460461whatever said:


> Jim C, I haven't polled "most" poachers, but you're probably correct about their use of .22's. My theory is based on my knowledge of what many northern MN "hunters" consider is their priviledge. And that is the taking of deer a day or two early with their rifles. I usually bowhunted right up to the day before rifle season, and from the day after. Rifle shots could be heard in the forrest all around me as early as 45 minutes BEFORE sunrise. When I called the game warden, his reply was, "they're probably just sighting in their guns". ukey: That, in itself, is illegal within five days before the season, unless you go the a registered range. I know the closest one of those was at least 35 miles south.
> Give those guys and their buddies a silent weapon that takes very little practice to use effectively, and it is possible their ranks will grow.
> Anyway, that is my theory as to why the DNR hasn't allowed them as a legal weapon to be used with a firearm license.



crossbows are lousy poaching weapons. Its hard to shoot them out of a car and more importantly, unlike a 22 in the head, deer shot with a crossbow tend to run-not something a poacher wants. It takes more practice then the those who haven't shot them think -shooting at night its even harder to judge distances and you don't see the obstructions that will deflect the bolt. A subsonic 22 doesn't make all that much noise-not enough for most people to even trace it unless there is constant shooting

BTW you can buy airguns that cost no more than a crossbow that will kill a deer too and they are alot faster to shoot second shots with


----------



## 460461whatever

*bragging rights*



Jim C said:


> crossbows are lousy poaching weapons. Its hard to shoot them out of a car and more importantly, unlike a 22 in the head, deer shot with a crossbow tend to run-not something a poacher wants. It takes more practice then the those who haven't shot them think -shooting at night its even harder to judge distances and you don't see the obstructions that will deflect the bolt. A subsonic 22 doesn't make all that much noise-not enough for most people to even trace it unless there is constant shooting
> 
> BTW you can buy airguns that cost no more than a crossbow that will kill a deer too and they are alot faster to shoot second shots with


I've known a few poachers in my days (of course, they don't consider themselves poachers until the judge tells them they are), and most of them like to brag about their exploits. A few also explained how to take deer out of a vehicle with a vertical bow. Some mighty big deer have fallen in northern MN with a nighttime arrow. I don't think it would take them long to figure out how to do the same with a xbow.


----------



## Jim C

460461whatever said:


> I've known a few poachers in my days (of course, they don't consider themselves poachers until the judge tells them they are), and most of them like to brag about their exploits. A few also explained how to take deer out of a vehicle with a vertical bow. Some mighty big deer have fallen in northern MN with a nighttime arrow. I don't think it would take them long to figure out how to do the same with a xbow.



perhaps but what people do illegally is not relevant to legal use of the weapon. using that we should ban all 22 rifles because making them legal means some will poach with them.


----------



## 460461whatever

*I agree 100%*



Jim C said:


> perhaps but what people do illegally is not relevant to legal use of the weapon. using that we should ban all 22 rifles because making them legal means some will poach with them.


I'm kind of a libertarian myself. But, if we are going to have rules, we ALL need to abide by and enforce them. Until then, we, as the public sees us, will have very little credibility to make changes to things like seasons and legal weapons.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*460461whatever*

*You said
I'm kind of a libertarian myself. But, if we are going to have rules, we ALL need to abide by and enforce them. Until then, we, as the public sees us, will have very little credibility to make changes to things like seasons and legal weapons.*

Enforcement is left to the DNR. Reporting poachers is all of our responsibilities.
As responsible hunters, we need to abide by the rules.

Some hunters are poachers.
Some poachers are hunters.
Not all poachers are hunters.
Not all hunters are poachers.

Its flat out wrong to be prejudicial.

You say 'until then' as if the world needs to remain static, and no changes should be introduced until we get our collective act together. If that was the case, we wouldn't have bowhunting. I'll suggest that there have been poachers for centuries. 

"What's your view of the outlook? How's all this going to wind up? Will the outlaw ever be driven out?" asked Duane. 

"Never. There will always be outlaws..."

Zane Grey


----------



## ban_t

Why is it when those whoo strongly oppose something they goto straight attack mode and just blame whatever problem on that item. (poaching) Then have too goto personal attacks. While defending what a so called great person they are, It kinda like standing there Singing La,La, La, with your fingers in your ears. :RockOn: :banana: :violin: 

Crosbows are good weapons of chioce for any hunter. By defination they are a Archery Weapon. I beleive that they would do no more harm Than the person who stands behind it. We are all Archers here I thought? I Use a compound, I have started useing a recurve again, Plus also use a compound so I can have the best chioce at the time I want too hunt. To me it's like having mulitple guns too use. Compound is my weapon of choice, Crossbow second, Recruve still working on that. 
Ind has late season for Crossbows, plus They can be used in taking Wild turkey. 
That in it's self is a great chanlenge. I love too see crossbows for the entire season, would love too see even more attempt too try and shoot one. Not a easy task. 

But the main Problem I see with getting that to go thru is just attitudes from some who just think it's their way or the Highway and we are all wrong and they are all right. I still have not seen any information Posted with facts that can tell me that a Crossbow can do any harm too existing archery season's. 
If that information is truly out there please send me in that direction so I can help you out. If not. then it's just your opion and not fact. I do respect you feelings opions, we do live in This wonderful Country So why cannot you Help a Brother out. By supporting all types of weapons used for Archery. 

Please, do not just try too tear this reply down line by line just read for what it is.


----------



## stresspasser

I think crossbow hunting should at least be legal for handicapped hunters. I think Ted Nugent (God) would agree also.


----------



## Tim4Trout

stresspasser said:


> I think crossbow hunting should at least be legal for handicapped hunters.


As it stands today due to discrepencies between hunting regulations from state to state you have disabled individuals who are be eligible to use a crossbow in one state but not in another.

I'd like to see better uniformity as it pertains to such "handicapped" qualifications, as well as increased liberalization. ( i.e allowing hunters over say a certain age who may not be considered as "disabled', but who due to conditions such as arthritis, etc. might have difficulty in handling a conventional bow )


----------



## ban_t

Tim4Trout said:


> As it stands today due to discrepencies between hunting regulations from state to state you have disabled individuals who are be eligible to use a crossbow in one state but not in another.
> 
> I'd like to see better uniformity as it pertains to such "handicapped" qualifications, as well as increased liberalization. ( i.e allowing hunters over say a certain age who may not be considered as "disabled', but who due to conditions such as arthritis, etc. might have difficulty in handling a conventional bow )


I agree with you completly Tim getting unifority, plus adding in let's say a age limit. It would help too keep many in the feild too teach others and introduce others too archery. Besides them just being able too enjoy themselves as they have always done. 
Back too the topic as far as Fair chase & Pope & Young Or B & C Fair Cahse is Fair chase as defined without defining weapons to a point. It is a club rule I do not belong too that club Since I do not agree with that rule(their added no crossbows). So I will not join or help them. It follows the same lines not allowing a handicapped person in to their record book who used a crossbow(although leagal in some states). It is not their fault, Nor does it violate any fair chase rule in all true reality. 
It is their club so it their rule such as any State. I beleive it is wrong too use a club as the Rule for all. They are not the majority of archers. Unless someone can prove me wrong with some good numbers on memberships. 
I do admit they have set many standards with archery over the years, but they are not the Archery Gods. They are just people like use with their own set of rules.


----------

