# String building question



## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

As I start to build my own strings how will I know if it fails. Other than the obvious fact it blows up on me. What should I look for when stating out?


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## 3SixtyOutdoors (Sep 14, 2012)

cams not staying in time 
peep twist 
cam lean 
loss of factory specs 

just list out everything you think a perfect string should do and take the opposite


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

tered said:


> As I start to build my own strings how will I know if it fails. Other than the obvious fact it blows up on me. What should I look for when stating out?


When a bowstring STRETCHES longer and LONGER....the draw weight actually goes UP ON YOUR BOW.

When a BUSS CABLE starts to STRETCH,
THEN
the draw weight starts dropping.

BOTTOM LINE.

If your draw weight CHANGES
and you did not touch the limb bolts..

your RIGGING is changing.

Not Good.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

Before you twist the string tie a piece of scrap string material to half the string bundle to mark the peep position. After twisting, if this marker rotates when you stretch and relax the string you will be wasting serving by continuing.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

skynight said:


> Before you twist the string tie a piece of scrap string material to half the string bundle to mark the peep position. After twisting, if this marker rotates when you stretch and relax the string you will be wasting serving by continuing.


I have found this method isn't totally reliable and I was throwing away some perfectly good strings.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

tered said:


> As I start to build my own strings how will I know if it fails. Other than the obvious fact it blows up on me. What should I look for when stating out?


String building isn't nearly complex as most would want you to think. 
Get a stretcher which you will need to make a good set anyways. Once built tension it up to 300 to 500 pounds and let it sit for awhile if it doesn't loose a pile of tension then it's perfectly safe. Just watch it when shooting as you should any string
Good luck. It can get addictive


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

WhitBri said:


> I have found this method isn't totally reliable and I was throwing away some perfectly good strings.


I'm still playing with it, but more than a 1/4 turn from 0 to 150# has not worked out for me. I've seen a 1/8 turn disappear after serving. Once the string is complete though, if it turns at all I get rotation.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

skynight said:


> I'm still playing with it, but more than a 1/4 turn from 0 to 150# has not worked out for me. I've seen a 1/8 turn disappear after serving. Once the string is complete though, if it turns at all I get rotation.


And your bow will take it from 70 to 15 pounds. 
Two things I've learned that helped my string building. 
Counter twist the individual bundles prior to twisting them together
Don't be afraid of twists. There is a point of too much but overall a few more are better. 
The twisting helps balance the individual strands to make a stable string. 
I have gone to making solid color strings as the number of twists I like in my strings I feel doesn't look as nice in two color. But I shoot a single cam which is by far the toughest to make with no rotation due to its length.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

How are you counter twisting? Curious on this one.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

skynight said:


> How are you counter twisting? Curious on this one.


Same here.
I heard some say one color is twisted opposite of the other. 
I in turn say, then how can you put twist in the string. You'll be untwisting the other bundle.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

tered said:


> As I start to build my own strings how will I know if it fails. Other than the obvious fact it blows up on me. What should I look for when stating out?


Your string can only be built in one basic way. There are steps throughout the basic process that make the difference between a good string and a bad string. A bad built string will be safe to shoot but won't be stable. You will have peep rotation problems. string creep (permanent stretch), serving will get loose, poundage and draw length will increase. 

If you lay the stands out with even tension, twist under a load with the proper amount of twist, serve with consistent tension under a load with tight tags, you will do a pretty good job.


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## Fenwayrick (Aug 19, 2013)

Just like anything else, the right tools and a little common sense will take you a long way.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

skynight said:


> I'm still playing with it, but more than a 1/4 turn from 0 to 150# has not worked out for me. I've seen a 1/8 turn disappear after serving. Once the string is complete though, if it turns at all I get rotation.


Laying out your loops is CRITICAL.

If you use a "KITE STRING" holder
then, loop layout is DEAD simple.











THIS device will have your loops at the SAME exact length, SAME tension,
and this...

THIS is the FOUNDATION to zero peep rotation.

NEXT step to ZERO rotation,
when you install the end or center serving,
have enough stretcher tension
have just LOW enough Serving Tool Tension

(use string bundle clamps...if needed)
and then you are well on your way
to ZERO rotation.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> Laying out your loops is CRITICAL.
> 
> If you use a "KITE STRING" holder
> then, loop layout is DEAD simple.
> ...


I use that tool, bought from a member here. I also started using a bungee cord. When I start the strand I hook it so the bungee keeps tension while I wrap, then remove it. These 2things have helped with my strand tension but complicated my initial post position.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

skynight said:


> I use that tool, bought from a member here. I also started using a bungee cord. When I start the strand I hook it so the bungee keeps tension while I wrap, then remove it. These 2things have helped with my strand tension but complicated my initial post position.


Are you doing the TAG end method?


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> Are you doing the TAG end method?


No. I'm using a little Jon jig and serving the end loops with .014 halo.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

skynight said:


> No. I'm using a little Jon jig and serving the end loops with .014 halo.


Served loops LOOK prettier...

but,
if you think about it,
you are overlapping two shoe laces,
stepping on top of the two shoes laces
with LOTS and LOTS of ITSY BITSY super TINY c-clamps (each wrap of serving)...

to try to prevent the two shoe laces from slipping relative to the other shoe lace (two tag ends).

IF the two shoes laces slip past each other,
at least ONE of your loops will grow LARGER than the other loops
and this is why you have PEEP rotation.

UNequal loop length,
UNequal Loop Tension..

shortest loop has HIGHEST tension
LONGEST loop has LOWEST tension...
UNEQUAL loop tension = imbalanced twist pressure inside the string bundle

you get PEEP rotation.

So,
try the TAG end method once,

cuz you are using the bowstring material itself,
to form the end loop
to close the end loop,
the loops cannot physically GROW,
cuz

the tag ends are used to form the first end loop,
so as long as you do a CAREFUL job,
the entire structure is REALLY stable.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

skynight said:


> How are you counter twisting? Curious on this one.


Before twisting together, serving or completing tag ends I twist one color counterclockwise and other clockwise.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

WhitBri said:


> Before twisting together, serving or completing tag ends I twist one color counterclockwise and other clockwise.


How many twists? How do you account for the twists in your initial post settings for length? Do you just do this by hand off the jig, or under pressure somehow? If by hand how do you keep the strands in place while twisting? Sorry for the quiz, just having trouble imagining making this work.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

skynight said:


> How many twists? How do you account for the twists in your initial post settings for length? Do you just do this by hand off the jig, or under pressure somehow? If by hand how do you keep the strands in place while twisting? Sorry for the quiz, just having trouble imagining making this work.


5 twists each for standard strings 7 in a single cam. Do have to account for it. Maybe a 1/4" or so. Do it all by hand. I use the end where the top color on the post doesn't have its tag ends at that post so I loosen the jig post and slip a screw driver under the top color put the twists in it then take the jig post with the bottom color still on it with the tag ends there and use the jig post to twist. Put both back on the jig post and reconnect all and put the little tension in it. Then go to tag end serving the loops.


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## jonw (Jun 25, 2009)

WhitBri said:


> 5 twists each for standard strings 7 in a single cam. Do have to account for it. Maybe a 1/4" or so. Do it all by hand. I use the end where the top color on the post doesn't have its tag ends at that post so I loosen the jig post and slip a screw driver under the top color put the twists in it then take the jig post with the bottom color still on it with the tag ends there and use the jig post to twist. Put both back on the jig post and reconnect all and put the little tension in it. Then go to tag end serving the loops.


I would love to see pictures or better yet a video of this


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

jonw said:


> I would love to see pictures or better yet a video of this


Believe it was a Griv idea. May be in his video. If I had a string needing building I would video. Might mock one up for you guys


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you closely follow any one of the videos or published directions about building strings. you should be fairly confident in building a first set that won't fail. the only real critical issue would be how you treat the tag ends, as far as the string suddenly failing. just about any other failure will be a gradual change, that you should be able to notice.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

WhitBri said:


> 5 twists each for standard strings 7 in a single cam. Do have to account for it. Maybe a 1/4" or so. Do it all by hand. I use the end where the top color on the post doesn't have its tag ends at that post so I loosen the jig post and slip a screw driver under the top color put the twists in it then take the jig post with the bottom color still on it with the tag ends there and use the jig post to twist. Put both back on the jig post and reconnect all and put the little tension in it. Then go to tag end serving the loops.



Thanks, maybe I'll give it a try.


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## mongopino915 (Mar 3, 2009)

WhitBri said:


> 5 twists each for standard strings 7 in a single cam. Do have to account for it. Maybe a 1/4" or so. Do it all by hand. I use the end where the top color on the post doesn't have its tag ends at that post so I loosen the jig post and slip a screw driver under the top color put the twists in it then take the jig post with the bottom color still on it with the tag ends there and use the jig post to twist. Put both back on the jig post and reconnect all and put the little tension in it. Then go to tag end serving the loops.


Since each half of the strands are countered, would it make the string not possible to strand walk to get micro adjustment on peep sight alignment?


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

mongopino915 said:


> Since each half of the strands are countered, would it make the string not possible to strand walk to get micro adjustment on peep sight alignment?


I've never had to move strands to get a peep to rotate correctly. With only 5 twists they aren't wound tight like a string.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

WhitBri said:


> Before twisting together, serving or completing tag ends I twist one color counterclockwise and other clockwise.





WhitBri said:


> 5 twists each for standard strings 7 in a single cam. Do have to account for it. Maybe a 1/4" or so. Do it all by hand. I use the end where the top color on the post doesn't have its tag ends at that post so I loosen the jig post and slip a screw driver under the top color put the twists in it then take the jig post with the bottom color still on it with the tag ends there and use the jig post to twist. Put both back on the jig post and reconnect all and put the little tension in it. Then go to tag end serving the loops.


I'm not sure about this. Counter twisting works well when making a Flemish twist string so that the bundles lay nice and tight on one another. Counter twisting on an endless loop string would only make the bundle less round and have more uneven tension on the inside and outside strands. If you put twists in the bundles before twisting them together, what stops the strands on the posts from overlapping each other? If the strands overlap one another on the post then you have some strands tight against the post and some of the strands on top of those. The strands on top will now be slightly tighter because they have a longer path to travel than the inside strands. That in itself, will cause uneven strand tension which would defeat the purpose of what you're trying to do.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Huntinsker said:


> I'm not sure about this. Counter twisting works well when making a Flemish twist string so that the bundles lay nice and tight on one another. Counter twisting on an endless loop string would only make the bundle less round and have more uneven tension on the inside and outside strands. If you put twists in the bundles before twisting them together, what stops the strands on the posts from overlapping each other? If the strands overlap one another on the post then you have some strands tight against the post and some of the strands on top of those. The strands on top will now be slightly tighter because they have a longer path to travel than the inside strands. That in itself, will cause uneven strand tension which would defeat the purpose of what you're trying to do.


I'm not using a 4 post endless jig. I'm using 2 posts and using the tag end method as Griv teaches.


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## MathewsHunter<} (Nov 17, 2013)

U.'m true "":-O u Zedong non
T.Jimitour' cc


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok do I use the same material for my cables as the strings? I have some 452x for string.


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## ibo73503 (Nov 26, 2009)

I use 452x for both the string and cables.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

tered said:


> Ok do I use the same material for my cables as the strings? I have some 452x for string.


452X will make GREAT cables for you, as well.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Fenwayrick said:


> Just like anything else, the right tools and a little common sense will take you a long way.


Very true, and add the time to pre-stretch at 300+ lbs being 12 hours takes alot of the worry about it. Add, that you put the amount of twist in the string and pre-stretch it till it ends up the exact length you want before you put the servings on it makes a very stable string with no peep rotation or stretch. :darkbeer:


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

WhitBri said:


> I'm not using a 4 post endless jig. I'm using 2 posts and using the tag end method as Griv teaches.


I understand that. Maybe I don't understand how you twist the bundles then. I don't know how you could take the half bundles off the post, twist them, and then put them back on the post with each strand laid nicely one above the next like when you lay it out.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

I set my Baker Archery jig up yesterday. Had my old string as my backup and reserved one end as my learning starts. Not as hard as I thought and It went well. Hunting tonight to see if my daughter can fill a tag.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

skynight said:


> Before you twist the string tie a piece of scrap string material to half the string bundle to mark the peep position. After twisting, if this marker rotates when you stretch and relax the string you will be wasting serving by continuing.


This guy is correct! If your string flag moves it's junk imho. Mine never move from zero to 300 lbs and I've never had a problem with peep rotation. 

Also once it's served stretching it will have zero effect on the peep rotation already built in if you built a string flag twister. Why just like nuts said you have hundreds of c clamps clamping the string tight. You have also twisted it up. So if a strand has to stretch to get rid of rotation it will more than likley fail.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Any benefits in building a draw board? I currently do not have a split limnb bow. I do not get a lot of cam lean on my bow currently.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

tered said:


> Any benefits in building a draw board? I currently do not have a split limnb bow. I do not get a lot of cam lean on my bow currently.


It saves you time,
and helps you get the cam sync in the ball park,
after you tweak cam sync in the bow press.

You can skip the draw board
and go straight from the bow press
and the shooting line
and back to the bow press
and back to the shooting line, to check cam sync results.

Just a time saver.
Handy for taking measurements.
I use one all the time.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks


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## Core Archery (Jun 26, 2011)

Strings do not need to be stretched 12 hours let alone 20 minutes to be built correctly for no creep and peep rotation.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Core Archery said:


> Strings do not need to be stretched 12 hours let alone 20 minutes to be built correctly for no creep and peep rotation.


+1 by the time you serve it up its been in the jig with 300 or more lbs of tension for 30 minutes or more.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Cables? How many strands ?


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I do 24-28 depends on the bow


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok that's a good start for me. Thanks


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

I have a Browning micro adrenaline and need to find the cable and string length.. it is 25 to 40# bow from what I can tell.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

If the bow strings and cables are still on the bow get it in spec and timed correctly then remove them without letting any twists out and place them on your jig. Turn the pounds up to 100 and measure everything including all serving, peep, d loop, and drop away tie in point. Then when you put it back on the bow you save tons of time tunning. 

You can also shave parts of the serving you don't need to save weight and make the bow faster. Bows come from the factory fitting 22-30 ect. with the bow strings and cables still on take a Sharpe or anything to mark the excess serving you don't need and eliminate it.

Keep a book with all your dimensions so you never have to do it again


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Forgot to mention to make the y yokes even before taking them off the bow.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok when I make the cables? I have a three post jig. Do I set the length and just us two posts and then split the string after stretching the cables? I have not found a video for cable making yet.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

What jig do you have


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

I have a Butch archery products jig.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I'm not familiar with that jig. Can you swivel the two post end so all three jig posts line up


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Yes


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Sorry its Butch Baker. Baker Archery Priducts. That's the jig I have.


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## AUSSIEDUDE (Apr 17, 2009)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Baker-Archery-Products/1500264746857961


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Pm sent


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

I like those string clamps.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Yes Butch selles them also. He has a Face Book page. And is on AT. I will look for his handle


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

At name is Bownut400. He was great.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

What's a good book to buy and have on string building?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

tered said:


> What's a good book to buy and have on string building?


Don't know of a book but I've heard good things about GRIV's DVD. Also b0w_bender has a great website with a Learning section. Here's the link http://nwspinner.com/

There is also this thread in the DIY forum. It's long but there's a lot of good info from a lot of different builders in there. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2062893


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

You can buy a dvd for $20 from little Jon archery. He invented the jig yours is modeled on. He also sells a dvd with a database of string blueprints for $20. Another resource for that is the attn string builders sticky in the string forum.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I suggest that you don't do this. Unless you twist the colors together using a special technique, you will end up with one color having less twist than the other color. You can do a simple test by taking two no. 32 rubber bands and put one opposing twist in each. Now twist them one turn like you were twisting up your two colors. One band will have two twist in it and one band will have no twist in it.

Check this and see how it works for you.



WhitBri said:


> Before twisting together, serving or completing tag ends I twist one color counterclockwise and other clockwise.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

jim p said:


> I suggest that you don't do this. Unless you twist the colors together using a special technique, you will end up with one color having less twist than the other color. You can do a simple test by taking two no. 32 rubber bands and put one opposing twist in each. Now twist them one turn like you were twisting up your two colors. One band will have two twist in it and one band will have no twist in it.
> 
> Check this and see how it works for you.


You aren't tag end serving your rubber bands. . If I was truly taking all twists out of one color and adding to the other how would I even get close to a balanced string and zero peep rotation?


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If it makes you feel better make two loops of different colors. Just make the loops of colors 12" or so long and only use a couple of strands in each loop and then tag end serve. Now put one opposing twist in each loop, then take both loops and put one twist in like you would when making a string. Does one color have two twist in it and the other loop have zero twist in it?


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

This may
seem like a silly question and I think I understand the string count. But a string that is to have a total of 24 strand is a total of six strands each color around my two posts.


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## jonw (Jun 25, 2009)

Yes 6 loops with each color, say 6 red tags on stretcher side then 6 black tags on stationary side use tags to server loops on each end


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

jim p said:


> If it makes you feel better make two loops of different colors. Just make the loops of colors 12" or so long and only use a couple of strands in each loop and then tag end serve. Now put one opposing twist in each loop, then take both loops and put one twist in like you would when making a string. Does one color have two twist in it and the other loop have zero twist in it?


I'll test your theory as it has me thinking now. But I will say I always struggled making single cam strings with zero rotation when not doing this. Buddy told me this method and said he learned from Griv years ago. So I tried it and nothing but perfect no rotation strings since. I put 7 twists in each half. So by you explanation after the string is complete I would have 14 twists of difference between the halves. Would sure think this would lead to more not less peep rotation


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

First try. Need to work on the tag end thing better.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

WhitBri said:


> I'll test your theory as it has me thinking now. But I will say I always struggled making single cam strings with zero rotation when not doing this. Buddy told me this method and said he learned from Griv years ago. So I tried it and nothing but perfect no rotation strings since. I put 7 twists in each half. So by you explanation after the string is complete I would have 14 twists of difference between the halves. Would sure think this would lead to more not less peep rotation


No need to twist loops or struggle with single cam strings. That's mostly what I make. I own four mathews bows my friends own mathews so I make a lot of long strings out of different material. I've made three color strings, pin strip strings, one and two color strings. Never had any string flag twist from zero to 300 lbs on the jig. Zero string flag twists means zero peep rotation when strings are on your bow. It's all in how you serve the string or the direction you serve the string. Here is one of my long mathews strings
http://youtu.be/cxvgrG_ynT4


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok learning curve. When you twist is it under pressure? I did at about 300lbs and my first atempt I blew the string out. But I did get it done.
First try. I like this stuff.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> No need to twist loops or struggle with single cam strings. That's mostly what I make. I own four mathews bows my friends own mathews so I make a lot of long strings out of different material. I've made three color strings, pin strip strings, one and two color strings. Never had any string flag twist from zero to 300 lbs on the jig. Zero string flag twists means zero peep rotation when strings are on your bow. It's all in how you serve the string or the direction you serve the string. Here is one of my long mathews strings
> http://youtu.be/cxvgrG_ynT4


I don't struggle anymore perfect strings every time


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

tered said:


> Ok learning curve. When you twist is it under pressure? I did at about 300lbs and my first atempt I blew the string out. But I did get it done.
> First try. I like this stuff.


If you start with the string at 300lbs and then twist, by the time you're done twisting, you'll have way over 300lbs on the string and you'll likely get a lot of flex in your jig/strut which will pop the string off the posts. Try backing it down to about 150lbs and then start your twists. By the time you're done you'll be close to 300lbs.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks I the second try I started at 100. The. Slowy worked up to 300. First try I have no rotation in my string. I think I got lucky. Just to much fun. I will try cables tonight..


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I start mine at 200 and twist about 10-20 twists making sure i dont go over 300 and lower tension back to 200. I try and keep the tension even. I also use these pegs for keeping my strings seperated. I made them with a drill, round file, flat file and sand paper in different grits.


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

I used a Sharpe. I might make something like that to. I tried the golf tees they fell out.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

I use 2 fender washers with 2 rubber washers sandwiched between them. The rubber washers deform into elliptical shapes but they are easy to make and work perfect.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

My jig came with the fender and ruber washers but they were harder to get out of the string then the wood pegs.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

tered said:


> I used a Sharpe. I might make something like that to. I tried the golf tees they fell out.


All I use are golf tees. Not sure how you're using them but I've never had one fall out. I like them because they do the job and you don't have to pull the bundles wider to remove them like you would with the splitter shown above.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I like and use the golf tees for three colored strings


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## tered (Sep 29, 2014)

I will try the tees again. I will have to look at some video to be sure I am correctly use them.


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