# Draw Technique and Consistency on Target



## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Begin with only opinion 

1. Draw with your back muscles it will be easier and your back is a lot stronger than your arms. If this is not easily understood pm me we can discuss.

2 anchor stability and consistency on target are a whole different deal .

A) anchor needs to be bone contact with bone 
if a hand held release then 1st two knuckles straddle jaw line hand at a 45 to the face. String touching nose and peep lined up centering the housing in the peep pin on target. 
If a wrist release index buckle in hole behind the ear still nose on the string and everything else from above.

B) stability at full draw has lots of contributing components. Listing good goals.
1 open grip on bow hand relaxed.
2 low front shoulder
3 bone to bone alignment on bow arm
4 proper draw length setting such that your draw elbow is in line with the arrow at full draw. 
5 proper stance
6 head upright.

Hope that helps


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

although form and technique in the draw, is certainly an important issue,.......I see many people that are simply over bowed having technique problems. considering that you might be over bowed, (just a guess, as we cannot see you drawing your bow) it might help to lower your draw weight for a while, to work on learning a new technique.
Sasquech is certainly right about getting those back muscles into the draw cycle right from the start of the draw. the same muscles that you use for back tension are also the most efficient muscles to use to draw your bow. shoulders down and back as you begin the draw, automatically puts them into the draw and sets up the right structure for a good hold as you come to full draw. when you start your draw with the rhomboids doing the work, there is no conversion necessary as you begin your shot cycle. the foundation of a good hold begins with a well supported bow arm and having your shoulder down and back sets up that foundation. 
just a thought......


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks Guys! I do feel my rhomboids working big time on the shot. I do feel my technique causes me to have to readjust after i have come to full draw. I like the ideas here and will use my backup bow (now set up exactly like my main bow as far as spread distance) and work on draw technique at lower poundage (set at 50 right now).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> Begin with only opinion
> 
> 1. Draw with your back muscles it will be easier and your back is a lot stronger than your arms. If this is not easily understood pm me we can discuss.


Well, you'll have to explain that to me with a gun stuck to my head. Same with someone saying your biceps aren't all that involved with drawing.... Wait until you're hurt and you'll know what muscles are involved. If you wish to say there's a balance of all connected to the draw arm, I'll go that much. I won't go just the rhomboids. 

Me; Full rupture of the left bicep. Partial rupture of the right bicep. There is no repairing ruptured biceps. Separated shoulder. Rotor cuff tore in two places and two partial tears. $50 words for right bicep and scapula detached from the shoulder/rotor cuff. Partial removal of collar bone to make repairs. 
My back muscles, rhomboids, worked great, put my shoulder anywhere the doctor wanted me to move my shoulder. Arm worked, but it was a nightmare trying to draw my bow with all my might. Nothing worked. Drawing just plain stopped. Twice was it on my best day and not even a hint of pain. The shoulder is the most complex joint in the body, most flexible joint (3 joints actually) in the human body. They all work together as one. So many muscles work, some on top of another, to stabilize and make the shoulder have the range of motion it has.
If by my Therapist and Surgeon I'm a walking miracle. So much damage I was deemed down and out for 14 months and ready to sell all my archery stuff. 4 months out of surgery and I'm shooting my bow. 

Left bicep, not even trying to make a muscle (burns like fire if I do). Opened up to make repairs.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Sonny, 
of course there are more than just the rhomboids involved in drawing a bow when you use your arms, just the same as there is more than just arms involved when you use just the arms. in either case, the muscle is there and it's function is exactly the movement that is present when you draw the bow. the point is that it can be more focused on one group of muscles or the other and that focus is what defines which group is "used", as the main character. 
you can't draw without using all of the pertinent muscles, but you can draw focusing one group more than the other. 
the difference is what you end up doing, or have to do,.... once the bow is drawn. when you include the rhomboids as the main character, you are automatically setting up your bow arm and shoulder, in the right condition for a better hold, without having to convert to using back tension to hold the bow at draw. whether you realize it or not, once the bow is drawn, your rhomboids are doing most of the holding your bow at full draw work, no matter which way you draw, so why not use a method that automatically puts them in the right tension as a function of the action of drawing ?. man people have a problem with the conversion from "arm drawing" to using back muscle (rhomboids) to hold with after reaching full draw" when you include them in the draw process, they are automatically set up for their job of holding at full draw. pulling your shoulders back and down before drawing, incorporates them into that condition right away with no conversion necessary at full draw. they are also a larger muscle group, so the stress of drawing is spread over a larger musculature.
do some research about fundamental Oly style shooting procedures and you'll learn allot about using your rhomboids to draw and hold a bow. although the bows are different and the criteria of shooting them is different, the fundamentals of drawing and holding overlap.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My suggestion is for you to spend a hour watching jesse broadwater on youtube shooting his bow in indoor and fita competitions. To me he uses the correct draw cycle and he has some of the best form of any pro shooter so watching him is always a good thing. 

1. Set your lower cam or rear bar on your hip and get hooked up to the string and put a little tension on the string and set your grip on the bow. Your grip should not change once you begin drawing the bow at all.

2. Now we are going to talk about the draw position, you should raise the bow about 6 inches above the target you want to shoot and when the bow gets there your rear elbow will be about nose high and your palm should be at a 45 degree angle palm out. Your release hand should stay exactly the same through out the draw cycle so it along with the grip on the bow are set and will not change. To me you should practice this step a few times without drawing the bow, just be on your hip and raise the bow 6 inches above the target and hold it there and make sure everything is in perfect position. Pause the jesse videos and look at him at this pre draw location and make sure you are the same.

3. Now to draw the bow:

A. Your front hand, your front hand is so important so don't underestimate its ability to assist. We aren't going to push forward at all, we are going to raise the bow 6 inches above the target and without pausing our front hand is going to smoothly drop down to the spot we want to hit. This dropping action should be done very smoothly and not fast but not slow and there should be no pause. The entire time the bow is being drawn the front hand is smoothly dropping to the spot.

B. Your rear elbow, your rear elbow basically starts about nose high extended out in front and it travels up and over to the final position level with the arrow at anchor. So put your hand in front of your body and practice this a few times and get a feel for your elbow starting at nose level and then traveling up and over. 

C. Your back tension, to me you should feel it from the elbow down the back of your arm and your shoulder and in your shoulder blade area. Don't try and isolate your rhomboid and focus on it to much, allow from the elbow to the back of the arm and shoulder and shoulder blade to feel the back tension as a smooth delivery of a huge amount of force. 

So in conclusion you have set your hands to the bow and the release with the bow on your hip and then you raise the bow 6 inches above the target and without pausing you start your back tension and allow the elbow to go up and over as you lower the bow smoothly to the spot. This is the draw cycle that you will see jesse using and once you learn it you will love it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

injuries such as you have, of course, move the issue into another level and don't really apply to what is considered "normal procedure of drawing technique".
similarly, I have an index finger on my release hand that was almost completely severed off by a table saw many years ago. it doesn't bend at the middle knuckle, so my grasp of a hinge must be altered from that which is considered a typical "j-hook" grasp. I get by, of course,.... but I don't expect someone to realize the different grasp I have to use and don't expect someone to direct a "typical post" towards my "atypical requirements".


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I went and watched some of jesse on youtube and the only thing in my write up above that I noticed that was different was the elbow being around the nose area just before drawing and his is way higher and basically starts high enough that it simply goes back and down to the final position. I am hurt right now but I think mine goes up and over like I explained so you have choices as long as the basic idea is followed.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> Sonny,
> of course there are more than just the rhomboids involved in drawing a bow when you use your arms, just the same as there is more than just arms involved when you use just the arms. in either case, the muscle is there and it's function is exactly the movement that is present when you draw the bow. the point is that it can be more focused on one group of muscles or the other and that focus is what defines which group is "used", as the main character.
> you can't draw without using all of the pertinent muscles, but you can draw focusing one group more than the other.
> the difference is what you end up doing, or have to do,.... once the bow is drawn. when you include the rhomboids as the main character, you are automatically setting up your bow arm and shoulder, in the right condition for a better hold, without having to convert to using back tension to hold the bow at draw. whether you realize it or not, once the bow is drawn, your rhomboids are doing most of the holding your bow at full draw work, no matter which way you draw, so why not use a method that automatically puts them in the right tension as a function of the action of drawing ?. man people have a problem with the conversion from "arm drawing" to using back muscle (rhomboids) to hold with after reaching full draw" when you include them in the draw process, they are automatically set up for their job of holding at full draw. pulling your shoulders back and down before drawing, incorporates them into that condition right away with no conversion necessary at full draw. they are also a larger muscle group, so the stress of drawing is spread over a larger musculature.
> do some research about fundamental Oly style shooting procedures and you'll learn allot about using your rhomboids to draw and hold a bow. although the bows are different and the criteria of shooting them is different, the fundamentals of drawing and holding overlap.


ron, that's pretty much what I said. Stick that bow up and drawing with just the rhomboids won't draw that bow. Yes, use the rhomboids in conjunction with other muscles helps. Lack shoulder muscle strength and that bow will be hard to draw or won't draw.

Padgett made a good description of what I meant in paragraph "C."

As my injury/recovery, I was on the weight machine and drawing 60 pounds and holding anchor. So, yes, I was using all to draw and my back holding anchor.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Padgett said:


> I went and watched some of jesse on youtube and the only thing in my write up above that I noticed that was different was the elbow being around the nose area just before drawing and his is way higher and basically starts high enough that it simply goes back and down to the final position. I am hurt right now but I think mine goes up and over like I explained so you have choices as long as the basic idea is followed.


Wow truly appreciate the help! This makes sense. I have strength from my powerlifting and olympic lifting training but i think the lack of specificity of the movement is my pitfall.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I found a perfect video of him, do a search for "jesse wins yankton" this one has a perfect camera angle and he shoots a good 5 or so arrows so it is easy to watch multiple arrows. 

I saw his elbow at the nose level but jesse does it differently than i do, he hooks up to his string with the release and almost instantly sets his grip and raises the bow above the target with no pause so it is all happening so freaking fast and smooth. But when he hooks up and the bow is on his hip you will see his rear elbow just about nose level and then as he raises the bow the elbow goes up at the same time to a high position and then down to anchor position but he does it so smoothly and confidently that you need this video to see how he does it.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Since you are working on your draw cycle this would be a great time to also work on your back tension preload as you settle into the anchor position, I have a article on this concept if you would like to have it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

just like weight training,.....your brain has to learn how to talk to the right muscles at the right time.
my son got involved in cross training with emphasis on weight lifting, a couple years ago, some of our conversations revolved around the importance of learning to lift with the correct form. my advice to him was to work with less weight and more repetition, solely, for the sake of letting his brain figure out how to communicate with the proper muscles at the right time. he has done well, using that criteria in training and has been offered a job at his box, being an instructor, because it was recognized that he was doing the right things and had a good understanding of how to train properly.
in my own history of speed skating, there is a great deal of importance in form and execution. one of the methods used, is skating slowly, concentrating on specific areas of the actions involved in skating well. it is very much like blind baling, where we don't concern ourselves with the target, but concentrate on specific muscular actions that produce the shot execution as perfectly as we can produce it.
it's really not about how well you can shoot, but about how well your brain learns to communicate and convey to the muscles, what has to be done to perform the best. this cannot be learned at the level of "competition", it has to be learned where there is no pressure on end result performance.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Since you are working on your draw cycle this would be a great time to also work on your back tension preload as you settle into the anchor position, I have a article on this concept if you would like to have it.


Actually you sent me your articles yesterday! I am in the process of reading them. i have some printed out for tonights reading. Thank you for all your help!


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

ron w said:


> just like weight training,.....your brain has to learn how to talk to the right muscles at the right time.
> my son got involved in cross training with emphasis on weight lifting, a couple years ago, some of our conversations revolved around the importance of learning to lift with the correct form. my advice to him was to work with less weight and more repetition, solely, for the sake of letting his brain figure out how to communicate with the proper muscles at the right time. he has done well, using that criteria in training and has been offered a job at his box, being an instructor, because it was recognized that he was doing the right things and had a good understanding of how to train properly.
> in my own history of speed skating, there is a great deal of importance in form and execution. one of the methods used, is skating slowly, concentrating on specific areas of the actions involved in skating well. it is very much like blind baling, where we don't concern ourselves with the target, but concentrate on specific muscular actions that produce the shot execution as perfectly as we can produce it.
> it's really not about how well you can shoot, but about how well your brain learns to communicate and convey to the muscles, what has to be done to perform the best. this cannot be learned at the level of "competition", it has to be learned where there is no pressure on end result performance.


Couldnt agree more. Im relearning my squat post labrum tears in both hips and it is a slow process. I used the time off to focus on activation of the hamstrings and glutes to keep pelvic control throughout the movement. It has paid off dividends. Actually as you guys are mentioning, my main movement is counter balanced squat with a kettlebell focusing on the movement in a slow controlled manner.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the issue comes up all the time at my son's box, people come in and just start ripping weights into the air, and find out it's not as easy as it looks,....there's a definite reason it has to be learned with a specific methodology.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I thought that I did but I had to dump my inbox and couldn't remember, I have been working with so many people lately I just can't remember.

You are going to go through stages and some of them aren't very fun but as long as you keep a positive outlook that you are on a journey you can find the way through the tough times. For me having a pro indoor guy here local kept me from giving up when things weren't going very well, I wanted to quit so freaking bad a few times and just shoot my silverhorn but I would show up and watch him do things with his bow that I only dream of doing and it kept me on the journey. 

All I can say is that it was totally freaking worth it and each time I learned a lesson that I had heard about in reading or here on archery talk it was a special day, most of them are in my articles and right now they sound cool but simply aren't reality. The first part is actually knowing that there is a specific lesson to be learned and then you go do the training and then one day you learn the lesson and that is a special day.

Right now I am on a forced layoff with my bicep tendon surgery so my bows are in stinking storage but I can't wait to pull it back and see if my shooting is still there right where I left it.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Padgett said:


> I thought that I did but I had to dump my inbox and couldn't remember, I have been working with so many people lately I just can't remember.
> 
> You are going to go through stages and some of them aren't very fun but as long as you keep a positive outlook that you are on a journey you can find the way through the tough times. For me having a pro indoor guy here local kept me from giving up when things weren't going very well, I wanted to quit so freaking bad a few times and just shoot my silverhorn but I would show up and watch him do things with his bow that I only dream of doing and it kept me on the journey.
> 
> ...


PM sent.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Actually I have proven the biceps and fore arm muscles are not involved and are in fact relaxed . I have had my archers squeeze and poke at my arm muscles and tell me what is engaged they all say the back I'd where all the muscle contraction is taking place in my draw cycle. May be different for you but then again I only shoot 52 pounds don't really need more for killing paper


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Padgett said:


> My suggestion is for you to spend a hour watching jesse broadwater on youtube shooting his bow in indoor and fita competitions. .


100% agreed. I started doing this about 2 months ago, and my shooting has improved noticeably - more relaxed, less "hang ups" on my hinge, better groups - simply from watching him and visualizing myself replicating his form before my practice sessions. It's much like how watching Ernie Els or the late Panye Stewart and visualizing their smooth actions can help with golf swing tempo. Of course, in either case, it's not about trying to copy someone else's form 100%. My wife asks me sometimes why I keep re-watching the same 45 second video of Jesse's shots, and this is why.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I know that everyone is going to be slightly different in the end but teaching archery from a keyboard is hard without something to look at from time to time and I have used a variety of pro shooters in the past because you can find them in videos. The more I use jesse and watch him shoot the more I realize he just really doesn't have any issues or weird little things going on so he is a really good baseline guy to have people look at.

Watching Jesse and Levi videos is where I got the idea to clean up my shot sequence from start to finish, when you watch them every little movement just makes sense and there is no wasted time or effort anywhere. That made me take a good look at my sequence from start to finish and I found lots of garbage to get rid of that wasn't doing anything to assist in my shooting.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

I went through this this summer with my recurve, where I discovered I was drawing the bow in a possibly harmful way. I applied a new method there using the large back muscles to my compound, which I've switched over to until my rotator cuffs heal back up. 

After going around with probably 100 different techniques, I'm back to a draw similar to this (the only video I can find of Terry Ragsdale shooting in competition):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h1w1idw_5s

I've found the raising the bow way high and "chicken wing" raised draw arm method to really pinch my right RC on the top. I don't know how regular shooters do this lol, but when I do it I get a disastrous aggravation of my RC. 

I have no idea why the more level draw I see in this Terry Ragsdale video works for me, but it does (obviously I'm not comparing myself to TR but bear with me lol). I raise the bow to about the target level, and pretty much just draw back with the back muscles with my elbow about at face height. Probably a peculiarity of my particular RC irritation....

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Look up the muscular shoulder. I hurt in places I didn't think should hurt, from elbow to my neck, even down my side. I feared as probably most and maybe more and I asked. My elbow, the tendon of the muscle (s) that run down the back of your arm and the muscle (s) tying into your neck and all between are tied together and serve some function. Some muscles are underlying. Some server to stabilize only, not really working, but need to be there. Some work for only the briefest of time and go to a stabilizing state or relaxed altogether.

Doing my home exercises my arm got stuck up. Muscles bound up. Hell, to get down and pure pain when it come down. Again, in therapy my arm got stuck at something of 75 degrees, rolling that damn ball up the wall. I needed explanations. This muscle does this and this muscle is trying to make up for strength loss and so on. 
Also, laying on my back put the fear in me. This put pressure on my shoulder blade and effected the muscles in my shoulder and arm. For 2 or 3 sessions it was hell getting my arm down, back to my side. It had to be in the right position and have so much "feed back." Usually, this was my therapist holding my hand with so much pressure. In other words, muscles need to know something so they can react, function, relax or whatever. Those beds or tables, it was a struggle to get up, my arm useless, but pure relief to have pressure off my shoulder blade and not that there was pain. Once up and what I call relaxed or circulation returning my arm would start working somewhat normal and no pain.

I have rubber therabands of different strengths, a exercise pulley system, two peddle machines, a stick for pushing my arm to it's limits and enough pain relieving creams to start my own pharmacy. None of pain relieving creams really work, just a ease of mind thing. A cold pack or cold wash cloth gave more relief than anything. I refused pain killers after the second of surgery, never took one the whole time of therapy.
If the Therapist didn't give me a accepted explanation I asked my Surgeon. They were tied for explaining what I asked.
I had a goal, get back to shooting. My Therapist even helped set up therabands for my first draw training. 

montigre has had shoulder issues. She might be confer with what I have here and above.

Yes, rhomboids have their part and a bigger part holding at full draw, but more is work than one thinks....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> I know that everyone is going to be slightly different in the end but teaching archery from a keyboard is hard without something to look at from time to time and I have used a variety of pro shooters in the past because you can find them in videos. The more I use jesse and watch him shoot the more I realize he just really doesn't have any issues or weird little things going on so he is a really good baseline guy to have people look at.
> 
> Watching Jesse and Levi videos is where I got the idea to clean up my shot sequence from start to finish, when you watch them every little movement just makes sense and there is no wasted time or effort anywhere. That made me take a good look at my sequence from start to finish and I found lots of garbage to get rid of that wasn't doing anything to assist in my shooting.


Jesse and Levi are something to watch. And so different, Jesse sort of small, slender of build and then Levi like a bull. Still, both are so smooth.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Yes, rhomboids have their part and a bigger part holding at full draw, but more is work than one thinks....


I agree. In fact, one peculiarity of my condition is I currently am more comfortable in the shoulder drawing a bow with the thumb down/palm out, such as with a handheld release. If I draw using exactly the same technique with the thumb up/palm in (such as drawing with fingers), I can get the "pinch" in the shoulder. Part of why I went on recurve-sabbatical.

You wouldn't think that just that difference would make a difference in the shoulder but it does. There are a zillion muscles and tendons in there... 

DM


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Terps1 said:


> So I am struggling with my drawing technique. I have developed a habit of elbow/arm pulling vs the high elbow straight in to almost full anchor position. I am struggling with consistency on the target and feeling the solid anchor position.
> 
> My thoughts are this....
> 
> ...


you're way overthinking this. Draw how works for YOU to make the draw process smooth, clean and easy to use your back. If that's the high elbow going straight back, great- if it's in a different angle, fine.

Due to a shoulder injury on my draw side (broken clavicle, dislocated shoulder) I can't draw in the "proper" manor....my draw arm is somewhere between 25*-45*....it works for me and can easily use my back during the entire draw process.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dmacey said:


> I went through this this summer with my recurve, where I discovered I was drawing the bow in a possibly harmful way. I applied a new method there using the large back muscles to my compound, which I've switched over to until my rotator cuffs heal back up.
> 
> After going around with probably 100 different techniques, I'm back to a draw similar to this (the only video I can find of Terry Ragsdale shooting in competition):
> 
> ...


I can agree you'll find what hurts and learn to draw more properly. Like you I have the bow at target level and draw. Yep, back muscles working, but know my shoulder is much involved in the drawing process. My bow arm, the bicep is sort of tight, but something of stabilizing. My release bicep is doing something, but not like the bow arm bicep.
I've always drew while on target, but now realizing a lot more things. 

Two major points of soreness or discomfort for me, the back side of my shoulder at the rotor cuff and that going away was where my shoulder was separated. It seems the more I shoot the more better things become. I just have to watch how much I shoot.

I know me to some degree. I refused pain killers. I didn't want pain killed where I would go beyond. Took a while, but my Therapist now knows why I wouldn't take pain killers. That I was "pushing it" he cut me back on therapy and cut me back on home therapy. Well, what he doesn't know didn't hurt him. Counts of 5 or 10 I went double and or until I felt stress and then backed off. I was simulating drawing at 12 weeks or earlier. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2372134&p=1075965306#post1075965306


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as I said, earlier,.... people with injuries that necessitate alternative methods have no bearing in the issue. the "norm" dictates the majority of people who shoot with typical abilities. and yes, there is a "norm" that has been established, so the people who say, "do what works for you", are outside the definitive discussion, because "what works for you", has no definition of normality or established procedure that is known to work and taught as "the method that woks for most people". if everything was "do what works for you", there would be no need for coaches and no standards of form, of any kind. the same people who say that, do what works for you", will also respond to the typical, "who's my form" post and recite replies that are considered "standards of form" and then say "do what works for you" which essentially negates everything they said as a reply to the "how's my form", question.
it can't be both,....it's either, "there is a standard", or "there is no standard",.......you can't do what works for you and adhere to some standard, at the same time, unless the standard is what works for you, and there is a definite reason why the standard works for the vast majority of people,....it has been researched and proven to do so, time after time for ages. 
I think the "there is a standard", would pretty clearly win in this debate. if it weren't so, we wouldn't see all the "how's my form" posts. people are searching for comparison to the standard, when they post tis question, because they are aware that there is a standard, and they want to incorporate it into their shooting, because they know it works.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> as I said, earlier,.... people with injuries that necessitate alternative methods have no bearing in the issue. the "norm" dictates the majority of people who shoot with typical abilities. and yes, there is a "norm" that has been established, so the people who say, "do what works for you", are outside the definitive discussion, because "what works for you", has no definition of normality or established procedure that is known to work and taught as "the method that woks for most people". if everything was "do what works for you", there would be no need for coaches and no standards of form, of any kind. the same people who say that, do what works for you", will also respond to the typical, "who's my form" post and recite replies that are considered "standards of form" and then say "do what works for you" which essentially negates everything they said as a reply to the "how's my form", question.
> it can't be both,....it's either, "there is a standard", or "there is no standard",.......you can't do what works for you and adhere to some standard, at the same time, unless the standard is what works for you, and there is a definite reason why the standard works for the vast majority of people,....it has been researched and proven to do so, time after time for ages.
> I think the "there is a standard", would pretty clearly win in this debate. if it weren't so, we wouldn't see all the "how's my form" posts. people are searching for comparison to the standard, when they post tis question, because they are aware that there is a standard, and they want to incorporate it into their shooting, because they know it works.


I don't think anyone is disputing this, ron. It's just when you hurt you find out more things are at work than thought. People point out the rhomboids, fine, but there's muscle over the top of the rhomboids. There's more to the bicep than that "Show Off" muscle.

Some copy write thing won't let me copy, but I copied the leading paragraph.
"Shoulder muscle anatomy is one of the most complicated compilations of muscle because of the shoulder joint is the most mobile joint in the human body. The muscles of the shoulder connect its transitions from the torso into the neck area and into the upper parts of the arms and hands. For that reason and because of the dexterity of the shoulder joint itself, the muscle of the shoulder is complex ranging from massive prime mover muscles to finer stabilizer and fixates muscles."


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok so im back to working on this. and its not pretty nor feels good. 

The back side of my shoulder feels like its being ripped and torn with a 48# bow and drawing with a higher elbow (up and over). Im quite keen on back activation but this doesnt feel good.

Thoughts? My tendency is the low elbow and raise it up to the anchor.


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## Flyron (Jul 14, 2015)

Regardless of how one shoots, warm-up with arm exercises to get blood flowing before attempting to draw your bow. I use one of those bands daily for keeping body flexible and loose.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Terps1 said:


> Ok so im back to working on this. and its not pretty nor feels good.
> 
> The back side of my shoulder feels like its being ripped and torn with a 48# bow and drawing with a higher elbow (up and over). Im quite keen on back activation but this doesnt feel good.
> 
> Thoughts? My tendency is the low elbow and raise it up to the anchor.


Well try the Terry Ragsdale method, I'm at the range now and I'm noticing the elbow no higher than about cheek level. The chicken wing thing may be hurting you too.... Worth a try if it doesn't hurt.

DM


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

dmacey said:


> Well try the Terry Ragsdale method, I'm at the range now and I'm noticing the elbow no higher than about cheek level. The chicken wing thing may be hurting you too.... Worth a try if it doesn't hurt.
> 
> DM


I even tried to go slow and it was a nasty feeling on the back of the shoulder at the armpit. Dont get me wrong i am probably weak somewhat there but the lat strength is definitely there. 

I will definitely work on bringing it higher and using my bow arm lat to help (which is easier to keep my shoulder down).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Terps1 said:


> I even tried to go slow and it was a nasty feeling on the back of the shoulder at the armpit. Dont get me wrong i am probably weak somewhat there but the lat strength is definitely there.
> 
> I will definitely work on bringing it higher and using my bow arm lat to help (which is easier to keep my shoulder down).


Me, drawing, thumb or hinge release. Release hand turned like in anchoring. Draw elbow is up to around my cheek. Drawing, my elbow stays put in height (I draw while on target). I don't even think about my release shoulder. I got it this way, if I have to force my shoulder to move then it's wrong to move it. Elbow up the shoulder takes care of it's self. Simple test with no bow, pretend drawing, elbow correctly up, not forced. Anchor. Elbow in correct position it should be a tad easy to move back of you. Try to move it out and it might seem like more muscle is working. Now, all in place, where's your shoulder? Should be the only place it should be.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> Me, drawing, thumb or hinge release. Release hand turned like in anchoring. Draw elbow is up to around my cheek. Drawing, my elbow stays put in height (I draw while on target). I don't even think about my release shoulder. I got it this way, if I have to force my shoulder to move then it's wrong to move it. Elbow up the shoulder takes care of it's self. Simple test with no bow, pretend drawing, elbow correctly up, not forced. Anchor. Elbow in correct position it should be a tad easy to move back of you. Try to move it out and it might seem like more muscle is working. Now, all in place, where's your shoulder? Should be the only place it should be.


I can move it that way no problem. I tend to slack on my bow arm and it will make it harder. but i did have a few draws that felt decent. I have some video i will put up when i get home.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Sonny maybe just because you cannot understand how to draw a bow with your back is why you had to be stitched back together. Not calling you out here but if you drew the right poundage and did it properly maybe you would not have had to go through those surgeries.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> Sonny maybe just because you cannot understand how to draw a bow with your back is why you had to be stitched back together. Not calling you out here but if you drew the right poundage and did it properly maybe you would not have had to go through those surgeries.


I'd call that a Call Out. Try nailing a froze down chunk of ice under 5 inches of new snow at 10 mph with a ATV. See if you don't get thrown through the handle bars and see what rips and tears. What, you pissed off because I explained more is work than the rhomboids when drawing a bow?


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## WhiskeyZulu (Mar 8, 2013)

Jesse is a really good example of a nice smooth draw. A good video that I tend to find myself emulating is Chance's Iowa Pro-Am warm-up video. Check it out. Starts at 2:35.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P0yqbCAI7E&list=PLLOs3PtJUwV0kG2KoPy5u3B4kweBdS5ha&index=5


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

WhiskeyZulu said:


> Jesse is a really good example of a nice smooth draw. A good video that I tend to find myself emulating is Chance's Iowa Pro-Am warm-up video. Check it out. Starts at 2:35.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P0yqbCAI7E&list=PLLOs3PtJUwV0kG2KoPy5u3B4kweBdS5ha&index=5


ow, ow ow.. ow that hurts me so bad... lol... Honestly, I don't know how these shooters draw like this lol. I get a pinch in the right RC just watching this. Here's John Dudley drawing his bow, though, and it's closer to what I'm currently doing (he is apparently shooting with two arms again finally):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkSqEEjd7UQ

DM


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Chances warm up draws are illegal USA archery considered sky drawing 1 warning 1 lost arrow then third time disqualify going to be interesting if they in force it


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sasquech said:


> Chances warm up draws are illegal USA archery considered sky drawing 1 warning 1 lost arrow then third time disqualify going to be interesting if they in force it


 

Both hands above the head. Yup, that's sky drawing.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Getting a little off the subject, but....

NFAA Rule went into effect June of 2013;
No archer shall draw a bow with with the bow hand above the top of the head when drawing on a horizontal plane, or parallel to the ground.

The initiate of drawing, violation, is that above the head. If in fact the hands are above the head and actual drawing does not go into effect until the hands are at the head the drawing is deemed legal. Indeed, Officials have their work cut out for them.... 

The NAA/FITA had such ruling well before the NFAA.

Two years in effect and I can't recall anyone, especially the upper ranks, being disqualified. 

Not to legitimize, but for those with physical issues some may not be subjected to such drawing rule. Read that somewhere. Dig deep enough and you can find just about anything that can be a brick wall for a rule. Poor example, but a example; About like some NFAA Chapters have/had Qualifiers for whatever event. WRONG. "No shooter will be turned away." I questioned of Indoor Qualifiers at the 2004 IAA Convention. State Director Bob McCutheon made inquiries and returned with the "No shooter will be turned away" clause. Qualifiers in the State of Illinois were dropped immediately after. 

ASA has no rule other than the Youth divisions are required to have control of their bow. Range Official call. Rule in effect, no discrimination, such rule could possibly effect adults.

Old, more repaired parts than I like, I normally draw holding on target. I fail to see why anyone would initiate drawing overly high.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Public apology to Sonny Thomas I assumed all the talking of your surgery in an archery forum on drawing meant the two were related. If they are not related all bets are off injured persons have structural imbalances that make it difficult to do things like draw may impact your whole technique. Please accept the public apology for the assumption.


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## WhiskeyZulu (Mar 8, 2013)

Sasquech said:


> Chances warm up draws are illegal USA archery considered sky drawing 1 warning 1 lost arrow then third time disqualify going to be interesting if they in force it


Right, but sorry, that wasn't what I was getting at. How he settles in and finds his anchor points, and just the overall smoothness of the process.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> Public apology to Sonny Thomas I assumed all the talking of your surgery in an archery forum on drawing meant the two were related. If they are not related all bets are off injured persons have structural imbalances that make it difficult to do things like draw may impact your whole technique. Please accept the public apology for the assumption.


Accepted. I had posted a few times of the accident, but February 26 is a ways back. Many of my posts of the accident, surgery and path to recovery are in the "What did you do today" thread. Nope, not fully back, but I'm trying....


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

So i started adding in some sport specific training for this and can use a cable machine that has a post i use as a "bow pivot" point for my bow arm and a d-handle as the release I focus on using my back muscles and keeping my bow shoulder down. I like to start with a little more pressure on my front foot and shift back to 50/50 at full draw. Did 30 lbs last night for both dominant and non dominant sides for some very easy reps. Will work on this to build up more strength that i never really knew i didnt have.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

By and large it isn't building strength, but learning muscles new things and of course strength comes from it.

While in recovery/therapy I used therabands and the standup weight machine . I was simulating drawing. I was released by the head therapist at week 14 when proven I could draw 60 pounds and anchor with 60 pounds, this on the weight machine. Hey, that weight machine at 60 pounds was a piece of cake compared to drawing my bow set to 55 pounds. At week 16 I was released by my surgeon with no restrictions other than take it easy, build back to where you were.

I carried a release and therabands with me to practice when I wanted. Fold up and stick in my back pocket. The yellow was helped into being with my Therapist's help. The strings are adjusted to my draw length (just tie knots). There is no real pressure, but working my back I could fire my releases, both thumb and hinge. The yellow band was set to 7 pounds and then shortened to give 10 pounds. The blue and yellow was first set to 22 pounds and then modified up through the last at 45 pounds.

Firing either training theraband set and correctly "gripping" it was impossible to catch the bands. Yep, they'd fly right out of my hand. Scare the dickens out of our dogs also 

The black TRU Ball Extreme, a release phased out by TRU Ball and really a shame. Note it can be fired with the pinky finger. No movement whatsoever other than the pinky finger.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Draw technique is getting better. My question for everyone is this:

Do you use a static bow arm or do you push into it enough to get the full extension and bow shoulder down?I find that the slight push (maybe 10-15 degrees of bend in bow elbow down to 0-5 degrees at full draw) with a slight variance of weight distribution of about 60/40 front foot to back gives me a solid draw and i really feel the rhomboids/low traps and lats engage also gives me a smoother transition to anchor.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

My bow shoulder has been giving me trouble. Doc shot some steroids into it in two places. No relief. Been to PT/Massage several times. Real tight and hard on the back side of the RC, neck, and back.
After about a dozen arrows shoulder is painful and drawing is difficult and I'm only shooting 46 pounds.
MRI next week. Bummer.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

biggest problem is that the vast majority of people are over bowed, and that makes smoothness and consistency of hold, suffer. one of the biggest differences between the pros and everyone else, is they have an understanding of the small details and fundamentals, that make archery "good",.... and they pay attention to them.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

ron w said:


> biggest problem is that the vast majority of people are over bowed, and that makes smoothness and consistency of hold, suffer. one of the biggest differences between the pros and everyone else, is they have an understanding of the small details and fundamentals, that make archery "good",.... and they pay attention to them.


agreed im saving for a podium but only 40-50 lbs. i have my back up set to 46ish right now and i feel extremely comfortable drawing and holding at that weight.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

several years ago on here, Griv, once posted that his spot bow was set at 39 lbs. and he was shooting 29"-1613's out of it .....just one of those "small details".


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> My bow shoulder has been giving me trouble. Doc shot some steroids into it in two places. No relief. Been to PT/Massage several times. Real tight and hard on the back side of the RC, neck, and back.
> After about a dozen arrows shoulder is painful and drawing is difficult and I'm only shooting 46 pounds.
> MRI next week. Bummer.


Yes, by all means a MRI can tell much and maybe not all. Older people may only need what is called microscopic cleaning. 
.
.
Indoor spot bows. 20 yards and paper doesn't require a lot of "killing." Ever so often magazines will quote a top archer's bow set up. I read of Chance Beaubouef's bow set to 62 pounds. WRONG! That's his 3D bow. If I remember correctly his Indoor bow was set to 47 pounds or less. I got to speak with Chance at Presley's Midwest Open years back. Hey, Chance is young healthy kid back then, still is.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

My olympic recurve has 14lb limbs on it and it had no trouble piling a/c/c's in the gold at 18m, when I shot it correctly. 1300 spine arrows with 4" feathers and a not too good tune either. 
I have my PSE set as low as it'll go (about 33lbs or so) and I can keep it in the gold at 50m with no wind even with fatter goldtip arrows. 

Good thing about compounds is they're so aggressive these days a lot of folks shoot way more poundage than they need for spots. Just my opinion of course.

DM


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the secret is to learn those "small details" and comply with them, early. then development doesn't over work anything and cause injury. you have to consider that probably 90% of your shooting is done as "practice", in one form or another,.... when you damage yourself in practice, it does your competitive shooting, no good at all.
there's no "macho" in shooting injured, because of shooting injuries,...only foolishness.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Two seasons ago I shot my 60lb limbs at 48 lbs on my specialist for indoor and I absolutely loved it all winter, I could go in and without any effort all or fear of getting tired just shoot for hours and have fun. I did'n't like it in january when I had to start shooting my 3d bow at 62lbs again because it took me a couple weeks to get used to the poundage but it didn't really hurt anything. 

Last season I just left my indoor bow at 60 and shot all winter and it did make my transition easier between the two.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This year I have ruptured my bicep tendon and once I come back I am going to set my bow to 48 again and have it ready, I am going to use one of my schools genesis bows in the beginning to get started and then work my way up to my target bow at 48.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Notice how Schlossers chest is opened to the target. Using a slightly open stance and setting the barrel as you come into anchor will help utilize the back more effectively. A slightly open stance will actually increase the base back tension as opposed to a closed or even stance. Opening the chest to the targets greatly helps with the proper angular draw cycle as well. 

There is part of the process called "transfer". It is there because it is needed. If one does it consciously or subconsciously, to alleviate un-needed draw arm tension. Go do a full bicep workout in the gym to failure. Go home and try to draw your bow. It ain't coming back.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

stance, I agree completely, many times when someone asks, "how's my form?" the most glaring issue you see is that they are way too closed in their stance, standing almost fully parallel with the line of flight and the most common reason for the typically too long a draw length we all see, way too often. this position lacks stability across the shoulders and hinders the tension needed for a good hold and follow through.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

subconsciously said:


> There is part of the process called "transfer". It is there because it is needed. If one does it consciously or subconsciously, to alleviate un-needed draw arm tension. Go do a full bicep workout in the gym to failure. Go home and try to draw your bow. It ain't coming back.


That's actually a good way to check your form at full draw. Completely relax every muscle in each arm you possibly think of - takes some concentration at first if you've never done it - and hold with what's left. Watch what happens to your draw hand. If it comes away from your face, that shows you how far out of alignment you happen to be at that position.

And BTW, you just did a transfer. You'll be holding completely with the big back muscles and using a few in the bow arm to hold up the bow. Now, if you pull.... arrow will go bye-bye.. 

DM


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Not sure how he draws, but this was done, based on the archer posting his equipment setup on AT, with 61 pounds. Find what is comfortable for you for the draw and holding weight that gives the best results. That comfort may change as we grow older, and possibly a touch wiser...great info on this thread thanks for all the insights!


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

BTW, I believe Paige Pierce won her silver medal the other day at the World Cup shooting only 35 lbs. And that was outdoors at 50M with only 26" arrows. I shoot the same bow she does (a Supra Max), so that's super inspirational to me .

DM


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Wow that is some great insight about transfer and stance!! Never thought of that


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

subconsciously said:


> View attachment 2936097
> 
> Notice how Schlossers chest is opened to the target. Using a slightly open stance and setting the barrel as you come into anchor will help utilize the back more effectively. A slightly open stance will actually increase the base back tension as opposed to a closed or even stance. Opening the chest to the targets greatly helps with the proper angular draw cycle as well.
> 
> There is part of the process called "transfer". It is there because it is needed. If one does it consciously or subconsciously, to alleviate un-needed draw arm tension. Go do a full bicep workout in the gym to failure. Go home and try to draw your bow. It ain't coming back.


I've tried different manners of addressing the target. Turned to the target or chest open to the target, is not one that gives the best for me and not that I don't turn in the process of drawing. Me; Feet parallel to the shooting line. Target is off the point of my bow shoulder. Hooked up to the string I'm slightly turned, but feet are planted. Bow on target I draw and come back straight and bow remains on target. At full draw my pin all but dead on the target. Ever so slight movement is needed to center on target. Mary D's stance was just opposite of Schlosser's above. Her rear foot is offset slightly back. She drew straight on the target and you would say slightly twisted in stance at full draw, but pure deadly accurate. I took Mary to her first ever Field event where she finished 4th in the IAA Championship flight. Nancy Zorn (tied the Men's record at this event) and Kathy Pendle (sp) thought Mary shot outstandingly for never having shot a Field round and using a full 3D set up. More amazing was Mary only got to practice once a week, her management job taking much of her time. Mary also claimed Robin Hoods from us guys in 3D. I always wanted to shoot after she did  Sadly she was taken from us short time ago.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

much of the stance problem, comes from the almost universal trend of being too long in draw length and the unfounded stubborn nature of people who refuse to shorten it. it almost seems like those people will try anything at all, to keep from shortening their draw length. so much of all the suggestions to try different releases and anchor differently, and a lot of other "remedies" are because people refuse to accept that they don't need a bow with a 29 inch draw length.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dragonheart said:


> View attachment 2937969
> 
> 
> Not sure how he draws, but this was done, based on the archer posting his equipment setup on AT, with 61 pounds. Find what is comfortable for you for the draw and holding weight that gives the best results. That comfort may change as we grow older, and possibly a touch wiser...great info on this thread thanks for all the insights!


This be John Wheeler, era 2011. John got 3 $100 bills for each of his 300s, so $900 and he also received a Martin Shadowcat dipped in $100 scheme. I met John at the Bohning booth at Metropolis in 2010. John was the Platinum level Martin Staff Pro. John and I had both Martin Shadowcats, but John's Shadowcat had Barnsdale limbs.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

How does the open stance improve the bone on bone alignment appears like muscles are required to keep the triangle with the bow as the hypotenuse from collapsing.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Sasquech said:


> How does the open stance improve the bone on bone alignment appears like muscles are required to keep the triangle with the bow as the hypotenuse from collapsing.


It actually doesn't, maintaining good alignment with an open stance takes a deliberate action. It requires some practice and training to do it. But it has other benefits, primarily stability, at the cost of having to contort your trunk a bit to get into alignment. I can't do this very well because of back problems, so I shoot with a completely square stance. And sure enough, I'm rather easily blown around by the wind, though because it's not as stable as an open stance can be. oh well, life bites and then you die - I have to compromise because of physical limitations and being well-aligned is critical for me.

Here's the well-known video on "the wedge", which describes probably the ideal upper body alignment. Most of us can only approach it, but it kind of shows you what to strive for in the upper body. The "T" method that ron_w described earlier also gets you into, or very close to, this better alignment. This is primarily oriented towards recurve, but most of it can cross over to compound form also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI

DM


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Kind of made my point the more open your stance the more muscles are required thus the less stable the hold?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Sasquech said:


> How does the open stance improve the bone on bone alignment appears like muscles are required to keep the triangle with the bow as the hypotenuse from collapsing.


it depends on the individual. If I use a closed stance I have to force the sight L/R but if I open my stance I can draw on target with my eyes closed and gain NPA with much more ease. You simply have to figure out what works for you.

As an example, this evening I was shooting and was having problems getting aligned...I kept drawing on the bale next to the one intended on shooting. Soon as I opened the stance a little more I was back on my bale...just had to slide it forward (toward my toes) about 1.5" more.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Sasquech said:


> Kind of made my point the more open your stance the more muscles are required thus the less stable the hold?


Well for me it is. But I also shoot compound as far "inside" the bow as I can get, a-la "the wedge", or referencing the "T" that ron_w described earlier. I'm only about 5' 7", but my draw length is almost 30" - the only thing stopping me from going all the way to the "wedge" is how far I can twist my neck. So that restricts me to approximately the parallelogram normally. On a good day with my neck, my left shoulder could almost point off to the right of the target (I'm a RH shooter), but that's not sustainable for me physically. Still, I''m pretty far inside the bow, so if I were to try to use an open stance, I'd have to twist my torso pretty good which my old spine doesn't really permit. 

Many compound archers, though, don't line up that same way so an open stance doesn't give them any trouble. I'm thinking Reo Wilde and Sergio Pagni as examples, since if you watch them from behind their shoulder alignment is actually slightly the other way from a parallelogram. 

So I don't necessarily want to invoke do what's right for you here, since that conveys no real information, but that's kind of what it boils down to once you've found the best alignment. I tried a more open chest alignment with a shorter draw length for a long time and I could never sit still on the target. The pin would start to wobble around when I pulled through the shot and I had other troubles. In fact, once I redid my form to conform more to the "T", my draw length increased almost 1 1/2" by the time it was said and done - that's how far out of line I had been all that time. Holding on the target is no longer a problem.

Having said all that, I don't think a square stance is necessarily a dirty idea either. It has its own problems with stability, but it can be comfortable for shooters who line the shoulders up at the target or slightly to the right like I do. so it's kind of a compromise in the end.

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Defining where the feet are to be. How it got to be lost is somewhere back in time. Said and still said are the feet to be at shoulder width. Well, it was question and answer day. My answer; "Feet should be straight down from the arm pits." Most have a natural stance where the outside edge of the feet are straight down from the arm pits. Coach said I was more correct than the old saying of shoulder wide. Lost, he said, was the natural stance and where one adjusts from. Okay, it's starting point.

Obtaining one's stance, privacy thing. At home, grass worn away, I drew lines in the dirt along side my shoes and then I'd shoot and shoot and shoot to disprove or prove my stance. 

I don't claim to be a spot shooter, but I learned what well seems to work with me. Over 40 arrows, two getting out of the 10, 1 high and 1 low right. No more than 2 shots at a time and then pull arrows. So setting up to shoot 20 plus times. I was also alternating every 2 shots with two bows of 37 1/2" ata and 40 1/4" ata. My arrows are not what you'd call Indoors arrows, not with 6.04% FOC and turning up 275 fps and 284 fps.
This was shot outside December 11, 2014. So a little cold outside.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

and a person with too long a draw length, will have his shoulders very close to being in line with the shot direction, thus feet in approximately the same plane. which is what we see in many if not almost all of the, " how's my form ?" pictures. 
alternately, the correct stance, when draw length is about right, will have the feet at a much more open position because the shoulders are at a much more open position, relative to the shot direction. 
the other issue is that this closed stance also generates a tense and unnatural stance from the feet up. your stance should actually be much more like you are just casually standing around, ....relaxed and natural. when your draw length is too long, it motivates a braced attitude into your stance.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

ron w said:


> and a person with too long a draw length, will have his shoulders very close to being in line with the shot direction, thus feet in approximately the same plane. which is what we see in many if not almost all of the, " how's my form ?" pictures.


I had to kind of laugh here, since on quite a few of the how's-my-form pictures where it's thought that the draw length is too long, the real problem is a collapsed front end. The anchor is back almost under the ear with the string on the side of the nose, but the bow arm is bent and the bow shoulder smushed upward into the chest. 

When the arm is extended, bow shoulder dropped and the alignment put more "inside", the anchor pulls forward into about the right place with no adjustment to the bow at all.

I went through this this summer when I was re-taking up the compound after realizing my recurve days were over (going through the 5 stages of grief on that right now, but that's another story). I had my drawlength set dutifully to 28" on my PSE and, while I could mostly pile them into the gold, I just couldn't get my pin to stay still and I had the occasional flyer and there were other problems too.

I had to go back to basics with the "T" exercise and test the limits of my neck twist to the left. By the time it was done, my draw length arrived at just over 29 1/2". The pin now stays still, I don't get tired and I'm trashing arrows at 30 yards on a calm day.... Not competitive yet but much better than before.

So sometimes the bow is set just right and just an adjustment in the form brings it all to where it needs to be....

DM


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

This is a very good observation and I'd agree more so with you because I see that problem all the time on those threads too. 

I also shoot with my feet more neutral. The tip of my left foot (front foot) is just infront of the balls of my feet on my right foot (back foot). This gets me the best NPA and my body isn't fighting itself. And my draw length is definitly not too long. In fact, for the longest, it was too short.


dmacey said:


> I had to kind of laugh here, since on quite a few of the how's-my-form pictures where it's thought that the draw length is too long, the real problem is a collapsed front end. The anchor is back almost under the ear with the string on the side of the nose, but the bow arm is bent and the bow shoulder smushed upward into the chest.
> 
> When the arm is extended, bow shoulder dropped and the alignment put more "inside", the anchor pulls forward into about the right place with no adjustment to the bow at all.
> 
> ...


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

RCR_III said:


> This is a very good observation and I'd agree more so with you because I see that problem all the time on those threads too.
> 
> I also shoot with my feet more neutral. The tip of my left foot (front foot) is just infront of the balls of my feet on my right foot (back foot). This gets me the best NPA and my body isn't fighting itself. And my draw length is definitly not too long. In fact, for the longest, it was too short.


One of the good things about the compound is it's very accommodating of different forms. So you can actually get to a very high level with it even with a form that's not optimal "for you". If you have physical limitations for example, you can work around them with a compound and basically go as far as you want to. Look at guys like Matt Stutzman and other para-atheletes who shoot as good as virtually any able-bodied shooter out there. 

That said, though, there's definitely no harm in correcting form errors if you're physically able to do it. My problems were simply I learned how to shoot the compound "wrong", with too open of an alignment in the shoulders.

I've noticed a trend in the hows-my-form threads of the draw length always being too long (according to the comments), when in many cases it's pretty close if not too short and a change in form is probably what's really called for. 

I guess it's the recurve influence for me where alignment "errors" mean not being able to shoot at all, much less even get it on the bale. It's far far less forgiving than the compound is (which is both good and bad)...

DM


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## rossing6 (Jun 7, 2008)

Toss one comment in to this, when coaching someone drawing incorrectly, we notice that accessory muscles that shouldn't be involved in the shot process get activated. These tend to stay activated, tensed if you will, and have a tendency to destabilize the form at full draw. Being completely relaxed for the most part (at full draw) letting the bone structure hold your primary form, and then just the pulling form is really all one should feel-in general.

Drawing is critical, turn your bow down until you can learn to do it more correctly, probably best described as with a relaxed forearm, relaxed bow grip hand, low front shoulder, raise the bow and draw with mostly the same muscle/group that you will continue to pull straight back/around with. Shoot well, you have a lot of good info above.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I pretty much follow the Micheal Braden technique. Mostly square to the target, one can fine tune or test a draw length issue by opening or closing their stance. I found switching to the lower let-off setting on one of my bows changed the draw length enough that I needed to make a correction with my stance to get it right....until I could get to a bow press and make more adjustments.

My draw is mostly straight back at the target. I don't do the sky draw thing, but I do start with my bow hand pretty much level with my face, then immediately down to pointing at the target as I start the draw. Bow arm is extended and relaxed. There is no extra push from the bow side. My technique was directed by a shoulder injury from motorcycle racing, so it might not work the best for everyone.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> ...
> montigre has had shoulder issues. She might be confer with what I have here and above.
> .


OP, Montigre would be a great resource for you. She lives near you, is a level 3 coach and has more firsthand experience with shoulder problems than most doctors. 

I think she is a member at Anne Arundel Archers in South Gambrills, MD. Contact her with a PM.


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

aread said:


> OP, Montigre would be a great resource for you. She lives near you, is a level 3 coach and has more firsthand experience with shoulder problems than most doctors.
> 
> I think she is a member at Anne Arundel Archers in South Gambrills, MD. Contact her with a PM.


Actually just bought a release from her. I will be soon. I have a PT appointment tonight to help with some instability in my release side shoulder and discuss healthy strengthening techniques.


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## Knygathin (Feb 10, 2015)

Sasquech said:


> ...
> 1. Draw with your back muscles ...
> ...
> B) stability at full draw has lots of contributing components.
> ...


I am a beginning archer, and have recently had some pain in my draw arm shoulder. 

My conclusion is, that it is important to hold the elbow at the right height, in line with the arrow, all through the draw. So you don't raise it gradually through the draw, because that will strain the shoulder joint rotary cuffs. It is also important that the elbow is in line, not only with the arrow, but also with the shoulder joint. Thus "stepping into the bow". Because otherwise, if the shoulder joint is outside of the line, that will, again, cause strain or injury on the rotary cuffs.

My technique has become to hold the shoulder joint nearly static still, in the right position, all through the draw, and only draw with the back muscles pulling the scapula. The pain is gone.

Thank you Sasquech and others for all good advice.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

It is crucial as well that you raise the elbow to close the top of the joint prior to loading. If not the bursa is. Pinched by the draw movement and shoulder surgery is in your future.


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## Knygathin (Feb 10, 2015)

Sasquech said:


> It is crucial as well that you raise the elbow to close the top of the joint prior to loading. If not the bursa is. Pinched by the draw movement and shoulder surgery is in your future.


? Yes, I think that is what I am doing. Like I said, when I "hold the elbow at the right height, in line with the arrow, all through the draw".


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Knygathin said:


> I am a beginning archer, and have recently had some pain in my draw arm shoulder.
> 
> My conclusion is, that it is important to hold the elbow at the right height, in line with the arrow, all through the draw. So you don't raise it gradually through the draw, because that will strain the shoulder joint rotary cuffs. It is also important that the elbow is in line, not only with the arrow, but also with the shoulder joint. Thus "stepping into the bow". Because otherwise, if the shoulder joint is outside of the line, that will, again, cause strain or injury on the rotary cuffs.
> 
> ...


You can not draw with only using the back muscles. All is interconnected through the shoulder, the most complex joint (3 actually) in the human body. No shoulder muscle or strength and that bow will not come to full draw. More muscle is involved, even that down the torso...


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> You can not draw with only using the back muscles. All is interconnected through the shoulder, the most complex joint (3 actually) in the human body. No shoulder muscle or strength and that bow will not come to full draw. More muscle is involved, even that down the torso...


For those who are interested in the scientific principles of the draw cycle and its effects on one's body, a recent article detailing the bio mechanics of the forces generated during the archery draw cycle recently published in the Journal of Mechanical Engineering and Sciences (JMES) , 6 . pp. 762-771. can be found here: http://umpir.ump.edu.my/3987/ (Excuse the poor translation into English)


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My suggestion to the olympic people is to just do a youtube search for jesse broadwater and stop messing around. Just messing with you, I actually read the article.


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## Knygathin (Feb 10, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> You can not draw with only using the back muscles. All is interconnected through the shoulder, the most complex joint (3 actually) in the human body. No shoulder muscle or strength and that bow will not come to full draw. More muscle is involved, even that down the torso...


Very well. Let's say that I _focus_ on using the back muscles as much as possible, and the shoulder muscles not more than necessary. Trying to hold the shoulder static, as much as the draw will allow. There is of course some unavoidable movement of the humerus in the shoulder socket, especially in the early part of the draw.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I stand by my position proper draw of the compound bow is done primarily with the back muscles. I teach every week several classes when I teach them to draw with their back they stop shaking at full draw and can maintain proper aiming longer with out instability. Teach it how you like we can measure relative effectiveness at tournament nets with results.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

rhomboids,..... the biggest muscle group in direct relation to drawing a bow. do a little searching and find what the rhomboids do.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sasquech said:


> I stand by my position proper draw of the compound bow is done primarily with the back muscles. I teach every week several classes when I teach them to draw with their back they stop shaking at full draw and can maintain proper aiming longer with out instability. Teach it how you like we can measure relative effectiveness at tournament nets with results.


Better said than before or above. One muscle hurt or disconnected and you know more is at work than just the rhomboids.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

No kidding sonny, I have always preached to hinge shooters when I work with them to learn to draw your bow without contracting the bicep to keep from punching yourself in the face and now that I have had surgery to reattach my bicep tendon in my draw arm I am looking forward to feeling the truth in feburary about how much or little it actually works during my draw cycle. I have a feeling that if it is working very hard at all it will scream at me pretty loud.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett, pretty simple if pretend drawing and/or holding you release arm as if right before anchoring. There is some muscle tension in the bicep, little, but there. More tension is felt on the back of the arm, not much but there (what muscle that's called). Feel the shoulder muscle at the pretend draw/anchor. Bet it's hard and that means....Yep, it's at work. Don't know what, but it's doing something.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

bicep, would be folding your arm at the elbow. as long as your rhomboids are pulling your shoulder and upper arm back, your bicep is supporting your folded and relaxed forearm from it's pulled back position, so the forearm can relax. being able to relax your forearm, is conducive to being able to relax your release hand. tension in the forearm, negates the ability to relax your hand and wrist, as the end of your forearm muscles are attached at the elbow and the Metatarsals in your hand, so tension in your forearm, extends tension into your hand and wrist.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett, my bicep was loose by means of the rotor cuff tore some how. So no pain for me, but the Therapist and Surgeon weren't concerned with me drawing. They were concerned with letting the built up pressure released instantaneously through firing. Okay, X number of pounds to zero instantly. With my first draw trainer, 7 pounds, firing the release gave instant ouch. Yeah, not really bad, but enough I didn't want to fire the release too much. Easing the therabands down, piece of cake.....

Other parts work also. The shoulder is hinged at the top, where shoulder separations occur, AC joint, flex point of collar bone and shoulder blade. Three manners of correcting a shoulder separation; 1) Get things back in place, therapy, and let heal naturally. 2) Suture in place (sutures dissolve). 3) Pinned for a certain period of time (hopefully starting to heal). After a certain amount of time the pin has to be removed as eventually it will break off due the flexing.
Shooting as much as I have of late, the point of separation does burn some. Asked and it's normal. They have this test, finger in the right spot you'll call out the Devine's name. So I didn't. What it is, drawing my bow more. Again, the damage I had I wasn't expected to be able to shoot my bow for up to 12 to 14 months....


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ron w said:


> as the end of your forearm muscles are attached at the elbow and the Metatarsals in your hand


The forearm muscles are attached to the metacarpals of the hand. The metatarsals are in the foot and M. Stutzman is the only archer I know who actively uses those in his draw cycle.....:wink:


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## Terps1 (Jul 31, 2008)

So i had an informative session with my PT the other day. I have no stability in my shoulder. Good scapular function and stability should allow for various static holds but i couldnt do them. think golf ball on a tee (ball on socket in shoulder). i have very little thoracic strength so we are in the process of working on it so i can potentially do the lancaster classic.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Terps1 said:


> So i had an informative session with my PT the other day. I have no stability in my shoulder. Good scapular function and stability should allow for various static holds but i couldnt do them. think golf ball on a tee (ball on socket in shoulder). i have very little thoracic strength so we are in the process of working on it so i can potentially do the lancaster classic.


I looked up this. Much of the exercises are like what I went through in therapy for recovering from the rotor cuff repair and reattachments. Arm movements, rhomboid clinching, stick to push arm and the such. I got a charge out the peddle machine for working shoulders. Work that sucker 1 minute forwards and 1 minute backwards and you've had a work out. I bought a inexpensive one (almost got the tensioners wore out). My dad made up a stick for me. And I have a pulley exerciser, medical supply store, $17.00. I can use this multiple ways, even use it for drawing.

Weak point for me, not drawing so much, but increasing back tension after a few shots. I can hold easy enough, but strength runs out to apply back tension as I want. So a few shots with my hinge and back to my thumb release. My Stan Deuce is a match for my ST360 when it comes to point of impact.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

montigre said:


> The forearm muscles are attached to the metacarpals of the hand. The metatarsals are in the foot and M. Stutzman is the only archer I know who actively uses those in his draw cycle.....:wink:


 ooopps, sorry,....wrong word !...... same bone different location.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ron w said:


> ooopps, sorry,....wrong word !...... same bone different location.


Haha, just playin with ya Ron!! :wink:


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