# More MOney for US ARCHERY



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

On top of the 150 dollar entry fee and the 75 dollar late fee, apparently US Archery has come up with another way of getting money out of its membership.

CREDENTIALED PERSONAL COACHES. Yes, If I want to coach my son or my JOAD kids on the waiting line, I or my students have to pay 20 bucks (I haven't had time to figure out if each kid who wants me to coach them has to pay that since I cannot request to be credentialed-rather the archer must). so theoretically, me a volunteer means 10 of my kids each have to pay another 20 bucks each just to have the same advantage that JDT or Jr USAT kids will have 

OR

I can remain behind the athlete area meaning my students will be at a disadvantage (Assuming I actually know how to coach) over the kids who cough up the 20 dollars or have national team coaches helping them

I'd love to know whose Idea this was, and if we THE MEMBERSHIP can vote on this proposal or on the person who dreamed this nonsense up


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

To clarify, here is the specific personal coach policy. 

http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Resources/~/media/839843C38C454F1EA328FBF7D93FA04B.ashx

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USAA Personal Coach Policy

INTERNATIONAL EVENTS
This personal coach policy for international events is not intended to cover every situation, but outline a set of standards for how personal coaches are able to interact with athletes they coach who are traveling on behalf of USA Archery. Any situations not specifically covered here are subject to the decisions of the Head Coach or Head Team Leader when no Head Coach is assigned.

ACCESS WITHOUT ACCREDITATION:

Personal coaches may have access to athletes they coach at the practice area when the practice area is not under accreditation control.

Personal coaches may communicate with athletes they coach at the competition site in any spectator area or at the barrier separating athletes and spectators.

Personal coaches may communicate and socialize with archers they coach in any public areas including hotels, restaurants, shops, etc.

ACCESS WITH ACCREDITATION:

It is possible that a coach can receive accreditation for an international event if there are more accreditations allowed and available for USA Archery. The following policies outline guidelines within this scenario.

Any additional coach accreditations MUST BE REQUESTED BY THE ARCHER not the coach. 

In order for the coach to be approved for the purchase of an accreditation, the following must ALL apply:

A specific archer(s) must request the presence of the coach
Additional accreditations must be available for that event
Coach agrees to pay all fees associated with the accreditation as well as a $25 sanction fee from USA Archery
Coach must have the support of the team Head Coach. The Head Coach is ultimately in charge of creating a positive and supporting atmosphere at all international events. If the presence of non-ITS coaches creates, or potentially creates any issues for other archers or at their own discretion feel like providing access to any personal coach would be a detriment to the team, the Head Coach has the ability to deny any such request.
Coach must be a USA Archery member
Coach must sign a release of liability as well as agree to the USA Archery Code of Conduct policies.
Coach must conform to all World Archery uniform requirements, including purchasing team uniforms at the coach’s expense. 

Accredited coaches will only be allowed access in the practice area, not on the field of play without approval from Head Coach. In the event the Head Coach does provide access, it is understood that the personal coach will ONLY coach the individual who has requested their presence and will not engage in communication or coaching with any of the other athletes while on the field of play. 

ITS staff will represent the archer in all situations requiring an agent. Athletes can request a different staff by voicing their concerns with the head coach or team leader. The concerned athlete and the head coach and/or team leader will manage the final decision. 

ITS staff will be assigned to the coach box in all situations. All efforts will be made to make these assignments as soon as possible; i.e. at the first team meeting or when the schedule of matches is available. Athletes can request a different staff, archer or personal coach by voicing their concerns with the head coach or team leader. 

An archer may request another archer to be in the coach box. This is managed with the head coach and/or team leader. Any archer going into the box must be part of the official delegation and have significant experience and knowledge of responsibilities expected from the position. 

An archer may request their personal coach to stand in the coach box. Any personal coach standing in the box must have an accreditation and team uniform. This is managed with the head coach and/or team leader. 

ACCESS WHEN THERE IS ONLY A TEAM LEADER PROVIDED:

All policies listed above are still in effect. All approvals will come from the Team Leader instead of the Head Coach.

ACCESS WHEN THERE IS NO TEAM STAFF PROVIDED:

All policies listed above are still in effect. All requests and purchases of accreditations must be completed prior to the trip with approval from USA Archery. No onsite accreditation purchases are allowed.

USAA Personal Coach Policy
NATIONAL EVENTS
This personal coach policy is for national level events occurring within the United States. This includes the National Indoor, Field and Outdoor Target Championships. It also includes all USAT Qualifier events and any team trials. This policy is not intended to cover every situation, but outline a set of standards for how personal coaches are able to interact with athletes they coach who are shooting at national events. Any situations not specifically covered here are subject to the decisions of the tournament organizer, head official or the USA Archery event coordinator on site. 

ACCESS WITHOUT ACCREDITATION:
Personal coaches may have access to athletes they coach at the practice area when the practice area is not under accreditation control.

Personal coaches may communicate with athletes they coach at the competition site in any spectator area or at the barrier separating athletes and spectators.

Personal coaches may communicate and socialize with archers they coach in any public areas surrounding the venue.

ACCESS WITH ACCREDITATION:
Personal coaches can receive a coach credential on-site at any of these events. The following policies outline guidelines within this scenario.

In order for the coach to be approved for the purchase of an accreditation, the following must ALL apply:

A specific archer(s) must request the presence of the coach (coaches cannot receive accreditation; this must be requested specifically by the archer.
Coach agrees to pay all fees associated with the accreditation ($20/event). 
Coach understands and agrees that this is a privilege and can be revoked if the coach disrupts the event or other athletes in any way. The atmosphere of the event is managed by the event organizers, officials and USA Archery. If the presence of the requesting coach creates, or potentially creates any issues for other archers or at their own discretion feel like providing access to any personal coach would be a detriment to the event, they have the ability to deny any such request.
Coach must be a USA Archery member
Coach must sign a release of liability as well as agree to the USA Archery Code of Conduct policies.

Accredited coaches will have access to the field of play area from the waiting line to the archer sitting area. It is understood that the personal coach will ONLY coach the individual(s) who has requested their presence and will not engage in communication or coaching with any of the other athletes while on the field of play.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

can you figure out if each kid has to pay 20 bucks for his coach or if the 20 Dollar fee allows one coach access to say all his club's archers?


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Here is the rule for Nationals, and it looks like it applies to ONLY ONE ARCHER, verbatim from USAA's web site, Denise Parker's blog.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, is going on??

*USAA Personal Coach Policy
NATIONAL EVENTS
This personal coach policy is for national level events occurring within the United States. This includes the National Indoor, Field and Outdoor Target Championships. It also includes all USAT Qualifier events and any team trials. This policy is not intended to cover every situation, but outline a set of standards for how personal coaches are able to interact with athletes they coach who are shooting at national events. Any situations not specifically covered here are subject to the decisions of the tournament organizer, head official or the USA Archery event coordinator on site. 

ACCESS WITHOUT ACCREDITATION:
Personal coaches may have access to athletes they coach at the practice area when the practice area is not under accreditation control.

Personal coaches may communicate with athletes they coach at the competition site in any spectator area or at the barrier separating athletes and spectators.

Personal coaches may communicate and socialize with archers they coach in any public areas surrounding the venue.

ACCESS WITH ACCREDITATION:
Personal coaches can receive a coach credential on-site at any of these events. The following policies outline guidelines within this scenario.

In order for the coach to be approved for the purchase of an accreditation, the following must ALL apply:

1.	A specific archer(s) must request the presence of the coach (coaches cannot receive accreditation; this must be requested specifically by the archer.
2.	Coach agrees to pay all fees associated with the accreditation ($20/event). 
3.	Coach understands and agrees that this is a privilege and can be revoked if the coach disrupts the event or other athletes in any way. The atmosphere of the event is managed by the event organizers, officials and USA Archery. If the presence of the requesting coach creates, or potentially creates any issues for other archers or at their own discretion feel like providing access to any personal coach would be a detriment to the event, they have the ability to deny any such request.
4.	Coach must be a USA Archery member
5.	Coach must sign a release of liability as well as agree to the USA Archery Code of Conduct policies.

Accredited coaches will have access to the field of play area from the waiting line to the archer sitting area. It is understood that the personal coach will ONLY coach the individual(s) who has requested their presence and will not engage in communication or coaching with any of the other athletes while on the field of play. 
*

USAA, You do realize the hurt you are putting on your organization? 
JOAD is your "grassroots" if you don't water and nurture the seed, it will DIE. Watering requires coaching, equipment, practice and more coaching. 
What does this organization think? 
I don't know about everyone else who may look at this, but THERE ARE NINE DAYS UNTIL NATIONAL TARGET CHAMPIONSHIPS/EASTON JOAD NATIONALS, and NOW THEY ANNOUNCE THIS RULE JUST BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT? THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, AND UNFAIR TOO ALL OF US (the clubs/coaches) WHO ARE BRINGING JOAD KIDS TO SHOOT IN HAMILTON.
The price of admission is already steep enough, at *$150.00*. My family lives here in SW Ohio, so we don't need to pay for hotel room, food, etc., which is involved with a tournament.
Many archers who shot our State JOAD event this weekend (June 16 & 17), ARE NOT COMING TO NATIONALS because of THE HIGH ENTRY FEE.

It would be nice to know who "decided" on this new rule. I would have that person's office REVOKED. Period end of story.

USAA, I understand this is an Olympic year, and you need to fund our team, BUT, if you do it by raising the prices so *da*%* high you are pricing yourself out of the market. You won't have a talent pool to draw from, because quite frankly, I know many people who have dropped their USAA memberships in favor of the NFAA.

$20 per archer for their JOAD coach to coach them...REALLY? SERIOUSLY? 

OUTRAGED LIZARD


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I'm still trying to figure this out. 

If I'm traveling with my JOAD club to Outdoor Nationals, if I read this correctly, the club archers and I have to:

1) request me as their coach
2) I have to pay the fee 

I'm mixed about it. And I can't wait to see what other clubs say about it. 

-Steve


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Jim C said:


> can you figure out if each kid has to pay 20 bucks for his coach or if the 20 Dollar fee allows one coach access to say all his club's archers?


It says the coach pays the fee.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> I'm still trying to figure this out.
> 
> If I'm traveling with my JOAD club to Outdoor Nationals, if I read this correctly, the club archers and I have to:
> 
> ...


Steve that is what i gleaned too. I think they are trying to cater to the elite shooters. We have many great shooters in our club, but many CANNOT afford $150 for a tournament entry fee. We have 2 "Elite" shooters too, but to allow them to have an Elite coach, and NOT to allow all of our other kids shooting EJN, or me as an adult shooting this tournament, to have say Jim or Darrell coach me, WITHOUT paying to do so, is patently UNFAIR to me and our JOAD kids, and anyone else from our club who is shooting.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

It seems yet another ploy to increase the stratification between the "chosen" few and the grass roots. I remember at Orlando 05 Lloyd Brown was told that he could be on the waiting line coaching his JR USAT kid while I could not even though my archer (who BTW Made JR USAT the next year partially as a result of how she did at that tournament) was competing against one of those Jr USAT kids. So I told Neil Foster I was going to file a protest because if I am treated differently than Lloyd that mean my ATHLETE Was being treated differently because she wouldn't have me at the waiting line while her competition did. Neil agreed and ALL COACHES were required to be behind the athlete seating area during competition accept during the team events where I and the other coaches were in the coaches' boxes. Neil agreed it was to make sure all the ATHLETES were treated equally


As an attorney well versed in the relevant issues of fair play and fair sport suggest this is not treating the athletes equally. Why should volunteer coaches have to pay 20 bucks out of their pockets to help kids when our Membership dues and outrageously high entry fees pay for coaches coach kids competing against our athletes?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Seems to me that USAA is becoming a little too much like our current govt. You can't legislate to control every possible behavior. Let organizers and officials have broad discretion as to what is acceptable, or not. 

From what I've seen, it is not a detriment to have all non shooters behind the designated areas for archers only. Coaching can be easily done from the spectator area. It's crowded enough with shooters as is.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Our club dues is right around the $120, because of the JOAD and ADULT and CAMP, GEE that's $30 short of the entry fee for nationals...THEN we have our FAMILY MEMBERSHIP in USAA for 3 years at what about $210. Just to put it out there for people to know, it AIN'T CHEAP TO BE A PART OF USAA, especially if you happen to be REALLY dedicated, as we (Coombes & Cincinnati Junior Olympians) are.
We also have our LIFE MEMBERSHIPS in NFAA which, I cannot remember how much those cost because we got those SO LONG AGO!

Back on topic though...our JOAD archers WILL BE TREATED UNFAIRLY, if we are not allowed to coach! I think we ought to file a protest right now, maybe a legal action about this little rule. Know any good attorneys???!! I do!

BEWARE FAIRNESS IS DEMANDED FOR ALL ATHLETES!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Seems to me that USAA is becoming a little too much like our current govt. You can't legislate to control every possible behavior. Let organizers and officials have broad discretion as to what is acceptable, or not.
> 
> From what I've seen, it is not a detriment to have all non shooters behind the designated areas for archers only. Coaching can be easily done from the spectator area. It's crowded enough with shooters as is.


ALL coaches have to be treated the same because if they are not the ATHLETES are not being treated the same which violates all sorts of Rules and laws etc. and making volunteer coaches pay out of their pocket so their ATHLETES will be treated the same as those who are being coached by people that WE AS MEMBERS PAY with our dues and entry fees is really pretty outrageous in my opinion.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

as I was going through the entries for Our State JOAD and the Helwig-Pierson Memorial Tournament (I'd love to have Charlie and George's counsel on this issue!) I was rather amazed to see how many people that helped me when I started in Ohio FITA tournaments were at our tournament but who are no longer members of the "NAA" but rather NFAA. I won't mention names but there were several people who were pretty much the backbone of the Fita Archers of Ohio (the state affiliate to the NAA) when I started competing about 15 years ago who no longer are members.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Seems to me that USAA is becoming a little too much like our current govt. You can't legislate to control every possible behavior. Let organizers and officials have broad discretion as to what is acceptable, or not.
> 
> From what I've seen, it is not a detriment to have all non shooters behind the designated areas for archers only. Coaching can be easily done from the spectator area. It's crowded enough with shooters as is.


Gabe, 
Agreed! 
But the point is that if JDT, JrUSAT, and other elite archers are allowed to have their ELITE coach on the waiting line, THEN EVERY ARCHER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO HAVE THEIR COACH ON THE WAITING LINE AS WELL, WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY TO COACH THEIR ARCHER, and that archer HAS to request their coach be on the waiting line with them, AND THEN TO HAVE TO PAY *PER ARCHER*? Don't you find that a tad outrageous? I do. 
If you, Gabe, have 20 JOADs shooting EJN, and they want YOU on the waiting line for them, then you'd have to pay *$400*? Is that not a bit much? 
Lizard


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Seems to me that USAA is becoming a little too much like our current govt. You can't legislate to control every possible behavior. Let organizers and officials have broad discretion as to what is acceptable, or not.
> 
> From what I've seen, it is not a detriment to have all non shooters behind the designated areas for archers only. Coaching can be easily done from the spectator area. It's crowded enough with shooters as is.


sort of sounds like trickle down orders and authority to me Gabe


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Unbelievable. We have about 15 kids going. This is not going to play well.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The part that is more alarming is this - who does my son contact so I can coach him at National?

I have asked Denise as to who I need to contact. 

Secondary:
Will the LOC ensure that the people who did pay are properly credentialed?

And, who enforces it?


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

This is ridiculous! I would like to see USArchery get audited. I would like them to open their books and see where this money is going. Its definitely not going into their grassroots program, or into answering phone calls or emails. And to charge coaches who volunteer their time or archers who already paid and outrageous entry fee and extra 20 dollars just to have the same privilege of coaching as the "elite" shooters is complete CRAP! I will not support USArchery if they continue in this direction. This is just SAD!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

lizard said:


> Gabe,
> Agreed!
> But the point is that if JDT, JrUSAT, and other elite archers are allowed to have their ELITE coach on the waiting line, THEN EVERY ARCHER SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO HAVE THEIR COACH ON THE WAITING LINE AS WELL, WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY TO COACH THEIR ARCHER, and that archer HAS to request their coach be on the waiting line with them, AND THEN TO HAVE TO PAY *PER ARCHER*? Don't you find that a tad outrageous? I do.
> If you, Gabe, have 20 JOADs shooting EJN, and they want YOU on the waiting line for them, then you'd have to pay *$400*? Is that not a bit much?
> Lizard


I draw the line at $350. All kidding aside, the elites don't need coaches on the waiting line. At tournament time they all know exactly what they need to do. Coming back to the spectator area for a word with your coach is easy. We should be a bit more like tennis as it regards coaches.


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

Aslong as every coach is required to be in the spectator area I am ok with that. But things must be equal for all athletes. Will the elite archers be allowed to use steroids next year?


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## bowgal (Jun 12, 2003)

As much as I hate to type this.....but I feel it is becoming the norm.....the average archer supports tournaments and I feel that NAA is gearing towards the elite archers. Their numbers do not support archery. This is not right to have to have a coach pay to help their student(s). 


Like JimC said "It seems yet another ploy to increase the stratification between the "chosen" few and the grass roots."

It's a challenge to shoot a tournament yet alone jump thru all the hoops that are created for us.

FWIW
Bowgal


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Utter nonsense. I will have 6 students there - 3 bowmen, 2 cubs and a cadet - and I will be wherever they need me, whenever they need me. This is JOAD for crying out loud. A few folks really need to get a grip on real life, I think. I'll enjoy seeing someone trying to figure out how to throw me out if one of my archers needs my help.

This is nearly as intelligent as asking families to waste a complete day on a team round that counts for nothing. 

Jim and Tom, I think we need to chat. See you next week.

Never thought I'd miss the old NAA... and the NFAA just looks better and better every year.

And "we've" signed onto this for at least another 4 years. 

John


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

I will be filing a grievance in writing tomorrow. This violates their bylaws in several ways that I have found. Something has to change!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I was around when the NRA (I am a life member btw since 1975 or so) was DECERTIFIED as the NGB for Shooting. I won't go into all the things that caused that move and whether that move actually made anything better but I can tell you that I see some similarities


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I was around when the NRA (I am a life member btw since 1975 or so) was DECERTIFIED as the NGB for Shooting. I won't go into all the things that caused that move and whether that move actually made anything better but I can tell you that I see some similarities


NFAA has always had their act together. Did I hear a motion?

It's time.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Utter nonsense. I will have 6 students there - 3 bowmen, 2 cubs and a cadet - and I will be wherever they need me, whenever they need me. This is JOAD for crying out loud. A few folks really need to get a grip on real life, I think. I'll enjoy seeing someone trying to figure out how to throw me out if one of my archers needs my help.
> 
> This is nearly as intelligent as asking families to waste a complete day on a team round that counts for nothing.
> 
> ...


You may have created a more sensible rule.

I propose this in place of all those other rules for JOAD archers.

Because limited space is available behind the waiting line, and to minimize distraction to the athletes, parents and personal coaches must remain in the spectator area unless their immediate assistance is needed or requested by one of the athletes. No coach or parent may occupy a chair in the athletes's area except when a seated posture is advantageous for the repair or adjustment of an athletes's primary equipment.

I used the term "needed or requested" in my proposed regulation to allow room for good judgement and the fact that a kid may not know when help is needed. For instance, if the kid is showing symptoms of heat stress, the parent or coach might need to monitor their well-being. Or if a kid is feeling overwhelmed they might need a bit of emotional support.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

num1archr said:


> I will be filing a grievance in writing tomorrow. This violates their bylaws in several ways that I have found. Something has to change!


You have our support. It may do the archery community good to allow all of our voices to be heard to USAA NOW, instead of at NTC/EJN, in 9days.

I may even submit this "new ruling" to World Archery Federation! Not to step on any toes, but for the good of our passion, instead of the good of USAAs pockets.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Just more mild questions.....and I hope no one takes offense with the questions, I'm merely bringing this up to have discussion points.

1) Will this bring forth more acceptable "coaches" or will parents be willing to pay the 20 dollar fee and become pests? Being blunt here, I've seen the rise of "Little League Parent" before, even with parents attempting (and succeeding) in getting a photo credential and then coaching their kid from the photo line. I remember people getting warned by the judges at the 2011 EJN when that happened.

2) Are you supposed to be an accredited coach with this rule? Meaning, you can show proof that you're a Level 3 or higher?

3) I see John is bringing out 3 Bowmen. If these Bowmen have never done a national tournament before, I can say from personal experience that the care and feeding of ANY new person to a large tournament is far more than one who is experienced. I know that I can leave Spencer on autopilot....but if I had one of my Bowmen or Cub archers that have never done Nationals before, I know I'm going to be with them far more than Spencer. 

Does this mean that it makes it harder for new archers to get acclimated? And, does this make it harder for parents to care for the younger archer?

4) This question is aimed at the Local Organizing Committee. Will the LOC have to provide more "security" as well as accreditation tags in order to prevent non approved people from wandering into a "secure" area? If so, who bears the expense? Just curious...

-Steve


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Does this mean that it makes it harder for new archers to get acclimated? And, does this make it harder for parents to care for the younger archer?
> 
> -Steve


I sure hope not! I can't afford the extra expense to actually get my papers.........guess that makes me a mut then :icon_1_lol:


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Huntmaster said:


> QUOTE=Beastmaster;1064370075]
> Does this mean that it makes it harder for new archers to get acclimated? And, does this make it harder for parents to care for the younger archer?
> 
> -Steve


I sure hope not! I can't afford the extra expense to actually get my papers.........guess that makes me a mut then :icon_1_lol:[/QUOTE]

Hehe.....I think your archer is beyond needing you to get papers.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Another thought, we will need the extra day that the team round is scheduled to finish the qualification round if they don't let folks help those new bowman and cubs with their scoring. I can see that holding up the whole match.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> You may have created a more sensible rule.
> 
> I propose this in place of all those other rules for JOAD archers.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense to me, and is really what I was trying to say.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Just more mild questions.....and I hope no one takes offense with the questions, I'm merely bringing this up to have discussion points.
> 
> 1) Will this bring forth more acceptable "coaches" or will parents be willing to pay the 20 dollar fee and become pests? Being blunt here, I've seen the rise of "Little League Parent" before, even with parents attempting (and succeeding) in getting a photo credential and then coaching their kid from the photo line. I remember people getting warned by the judges at the 2011 EJN when that happened.
> 
> ...


Steve, your point #3 is exactly what I'm getting at. Sure, even my cub archers are, by now, quite experienced tournament archers and will likely not need me very often. They can score, know how many arrows to shoot, which target to shoot, etc., etc. I'm fortunate that these two cub archers are as experienced as they are though.

But really this is about the bowmen. I have a 10 year old, an 11 year-old and one 12-year old. This will be the first national event for each of them. Only one of them (my daughter) has more than just a few years of tournament experience. Despite being quite talented, the 10 year-old has been shooting for less than a year! I'm sorry, but nobody is going to tell me that I can't stand near enough to her to help her through an end or remind her to adjust her sight when she needs it. 

Some folks need to be reminded that USArchery does not consist solely of JDT and RA archers. Nor should it!

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TomB said:


> Another thought, we will need the extra day that the team round is scheduled to finish the qualification round if they don't let folks help those new bowman and cubs with their scoring. I can see that holding up the whole match.


Great point Tom. Spoken from experience.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

USA Archery has a Facebook page.A comment or two or ten there might get some attention real quick!!! Could this all be coming about because of the possible presence of coverage by NBC in an Olympic year and USA Archery wants absolute control of everything????Will you be allowed to coach your kids if you and them do not have matching club or team shirts????? Good luck to all you volunteer coaches that need to help your kids,,,,I am on your side!!!!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, your point #3 is exactly what I'm getting at. Sure, even my cub archers are, by now, quite experienced tournament archers and will likely not need me very often. They can score, know how many arrows to shoot, which target to shoot, etc., etc. I'm fortunate that these two cub archers are as experienced as they are though.
> 
> But really this is about the bowmen. I have a 10 year old, an 11 year-old and one 12-year old. This will be the first national event for each of them. Only one of them (my daughter) has more than just a few years of tournament experience. Despite being quite talented, the 10 year-old has been shooting for less than a year! I'm sorry, but nobody is going to tell me that I can't stand near enough to her to help her through an end or remind her to adjust her sight when she needs it.
> 
> ...



Common sense is what is needed, not another rule. A couple of minutes of consideration regarding Bowmen archers and no reasonable mind would have included those archers in this rule. Perhaps Cubs as well. 

Fewer rules and better judgment please!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well Paula, if USArchery is worried about NBC Olympic year coverage, then they can pony up with cash for every JOAD club and provide them with uniforms to wear at nationals. Or, hey, just refund half their registration fee and then each archer will have enough money to buy a shirt for each day of the event! 

This to me, is a perfect example of a small organization wanting to play in the big leagues - trying to be something they aren't. 

Yes archery is a fringe sport that doesn't get much publicity, but neither is fencing, judo, and so many others. It's not like we have to reinvent the wheel here. 

IMO the past 5 years have been an absolute train wreck. A political model of hiring "yes men/women" to assure a certain outcome. No longer is this an organic, grassroots organization - at least that I can tell. 

Just as my local JOAD program is coming off a tremendously successful hosting of the state JOAD outdoor championship, I find myself waiting to see the outcome of certain issues at Nationals to decide whether my club and my archers even remain a part of the organization. We're fortunate here in Texas to have a strong state archery assn. that allows us to conduct events and manage our business with a minimum of politics. We also have very strong state chapters of the NFAA and 4-H archery, so that JOAD is most definitely NOT the only choice for our kids.

John


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

I posted up on the USA Archery Facebook page. Please get some discussion going. While a few of us check on here, over 5000 people check that out. Lets bring this to the masses and see what they say, but i'm a nobody, it would be good to have some of you well known guys to comment, even if you are for the change lets hear it.


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/USAArchery


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> Just more mild questions.....and I hope no one takes offense with the questions, I'm merely bringing this up to have discussion points.
> 
> 1) Will this bring forth more acceptable "coaches" or will parents be willing to pay the 20 dollar fee and become pests? Being blunt here, I've seen the rise of "Little League Parent" before, even with parents attempting (and succeeding) in getting a photo credential and then coaching their kid from the photo line. I remember people getting warned by the judges at the 2011 EJN when that happened.


It does seem probable that some parents might feel a sense of entitlement once the fee has been paid. Once money is involved it becomes a financial transaction as opposed to a social one, and once you've paid for something...


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## mackedanzchr (May 5, 2011)

Ok, I have a question...or a few...

I'm new to archery and just shoot at my local club... and I'm just wondering what all of these organizations are... and what are their goals...and why should we be a apart of them?


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## mackedanzchr (May 5, 2011)

Ok, I have a question...or a few...

I'm new to archery and just shoot at my local club... and I'm just wondering what all of these organizations are... and what are their goals...and why should we be a apart of them?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Common sense is what is needed, not another rule. A couple of minutes of consideration regarding Bowmen archers and no reasonable mind would have included those archers in this rule. Perhaps Cubs as well.
> 
> Fewer rules and better judgment please!


Being snarky here - USA Archery really has no set plan on how to really handle Bowmen and Cubs. I've experienced it first hand.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

mackedanzchr said:


> Ok, I have a question...or a few...
> 
> I'm new to archery and just shoot at my local club... and I'm just wondering what all of these organizations are... and what are their goals...and why should we be a apart of them?


USA Archery is the Non-Governmental Body (NGB) that is contractually responsible to the United States Olympic Committee for handling the sport of archery within the United States. They are basically the sanctioning body that connects upward (via World Archery Americas) to World Archery.

They are one of many archery sanctioning bodies within the United States. USA Archery specifically handles and governs archery tournaments that conform to World Archery rules.

Other sanctioning bodies within the United States include:

NFAA - National Field Archery Association
ASA - Archery Shooters Association
IBO - International Bowhunters Organization

USA Archery does primarily indoor and outdoor target
NFAA does primarily field archery and indoor
ASA and IBO are 3D foam sanctioning bodies.

Hope this helps!
-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Paula said:


> USA Archery has a Facebook page.A comment or two or ten there might get some attention real quick!!! Could this all be coming about because of the possible presence of coverage by NBC in an Olympic year and USA Archery wants absolute control of everything????Will you be allowed to coach your kids if you and them do not have matching club or team shirts????? Good luck to all you volunteer coaches that need to help your kids,,,,I am on your side!!!!


Anything Olympic based (trials, for example) is controlled by the USOC (Rule 40 comes to mind). Outdoor Nationals is outside of that scope, so NBC should have no bearing on that part at all.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, your point #3 is exactly what I'm getting at. Sure, even my cub archers are, by now, quite experienced tournament archers and will likely not need me very often. They can score, know how many arrows to shoot, which target to shoot, etc., etc. I'm fortunate that these two cub archers are as experienced as they are though.
> 
> But really this is about the bowmen. I have a 10 year old, an 11 year-old and one 12-year old. This will be the first national event for each of them. Only one of them (my daughter) has more than just a few years of tournament experience. Despite being quite talented, the 10 year-old has been shooting for less than a year! I'm sorry, but nobody is going to tell me that I can't stand near enough to her to help her through an end or remind her to adjust her sight when she needs it.
> 
> ...


Ahh...you bring up a good point that I'll pose something on both sides of the fence.

Side number 1 - Unless the Bowmen or Cub archer has had lots of national or international experience (extremely rare), the need for supervision is huge. 

Side number 2 - some may argue that you need more experience before shooting nationals to where you don't need to supervise them.

This, again, brings up the point that Bowmen and Cubs are pretty much ignored. Even Spencer's experience shooting up two levels as a Cadet shows that Cadets get hosed every once in a while.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Being snarky here - USA Archery really has no set plan on how to really handle Bowmen and Cubs. I've experienced it first hand.
> 
> -Steve


I would be fine, and I do understand the reason for the coaching credential requirement, for the cadet and junior archers. But we coaches, and sometimes even parents, MUST have access to our youngest archers to help them negotiate these major events.

We do this ALL THE TIME at local and state events, and those are much smaller and less confusing for a 9,10,11 year old. Nationals is the last place you need to seperate coaches and parents from these young archers. Someone just wasn't thinking, or totally lacked experience with young archers, when they came up with this.

Mack - I'm beginning to question myself why we should be a part of these organizations...

The real benefit (and perhaps the ONLY one) of our kids being in JOAD is the structured achievement program that is provided through USArchery (or "NAA") and the tradition of being a part of a program that young archers have participated in since the 1960's. They can also achieve state and national titles and records by being a member of this organization.

However, there are some that need to realize that JOAD is most certainly NOT the only organization for young archers to participate in, and that there are other good options that are in some ways, more appealing and much less expensive. For example, the Texas Field Archery Assn. (a step-down affiliate of the National Field Archery Assn.) hosts many local competitions, a state championship and through the parent NFAA, a national championship. 

So there are always options.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed



limbwalker said:


> I would be fine, and I do understand the reason for the coaching credential requirement, for the cadet and junior archers. But we coaches, and sometimes even parents, MUST have access to our youngest archers to help them negotiate these major events.
> 
> We do this ALL THE TIME at local and state events, and those are much smaller and less confusing for a 9,10,11 year old. Nationals is the last place you need to seperate coaches and parents from these young archers. Someone just wasn't thinking, or totally lacked experience with young archers, when they came up with this.


As a parent of a 10 year old archer, I totally agree with you. You shouldn't separate a parent and their shooter too much. For example - Health risks are at stake when you take an inexperienced archer that doesn't hydrate themselves properly. This is summer time. I've said it earlier in this thread that I'm thankful that I can leave Spencer on autopilot - he knows what he needs to do....at his stage in this game I need to be there primarily to ensure that there isn't interference from OTHERS that could impact his shooting.



> Mack - I'm beginning to question myself why we should be a part of these organizations...
> 
> The real benefit (and perhaps the ONLY one) of our kids being in JOAD is the structured achievement program that is provided through USArchery (or "NAA") and the tradition of being a part of a program that young archers have participated in since the 1960's. They can also achieve state and national titles and records by being a member of this organization.
> 
> ...


Picking up on this part that wasn't directed towards me - yes, there are other organizations.

The catch is this - which organization benefits the archers the most? Especially at the younger ages?

Does the NFAA really encourage and promote kids as they advance? Do they challenge the kids?

Does USA Archery do the same thing? I know from a head coach standpoint that Coach Lee has said that if a child dominates their division or consistently performs in their division, they should move up. But that's only from a coaching standpoint - is there promotion beyond that?

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> It does seem probable that some parents might feel a sense of entitlement once the fee has been paid. Once money is involved it becomes a financial transaction as opposed to a social one, and once you've paid for something...


Well, I'm interested in seeing which code of conduct paperwork gets signed. I know that I've signed a bunch (as a judge, as a coach traveling international, and with local shoots), so I'm very interested to see which one I have to sign (if any) when Spencer registers me as his personal coach at Nationals. 

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Curious to me that no code of conduct papers were required for coaches at the trials events. USArchery might just want to look back at how this "rule" has been applied at past events.

Steve,

I agree on challenging and motivating the youngsters. JOAD has always been a good program for this, and it is why I chose the program for my students. I am not completely familiar with the NFAA youth programs yet, but you can bet your britches that by the end of this summer I will be well versed in them... 

Fact is, there HAS to be a good program in place to capture the enthusiasm of the NASP kids and give them somewhere to go. Where is that going to be? JOAD? NFAA? IBO? who knows. 

I struggle to recommend USArchery as an organization for a family with young up-and-coming archers to stick with. Fact is, the chances of any young archer, no matter how talented, to make an Olympic team or World Championship team are so incredibly slim that I cannot pass the red face test and recommend this pathway to them. As a former JDT coach, coach of multiple JDT archers and two former RA's, I struggle with whether to recommend that pathway for a talented young archer. That may be hearasy to some, but any family with experience in those programs can tell you there are very definitely advantages and disadvantages that really need to be considered before setting either of those programs as goals for a young archer.

Hopefully these muddied waters will become more clear in the future. For the future of the NAA, I certainly hope so.

I'm beginning to believe that a person either needs to be "all in" or to not even worry about it in the first place. Trying to stay involved and to contribute on the periphery is indeed very frustrating. I also have reason to believe that this is exactly what some in the organization want.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Fact is, the chances of any young archer, no matter how talented, to make an Olympic team or World Championship team are so incredibly slim that I cannot pass the red face test and recommend this pathway to them. As a former JDT coach, coach of multiple JDT archers and two former RA's, I struggle with whether to recommend that pathway for a talented young archer. That may be hearasy to some, but any family with experience in those programs can tell you there are very definitely advantages and disadvantages that really need to be considered before setting either of those programs as goals for a young archer.


I can't think of anyone more qualified than you to ponder that issue. It really is the question of all competitive sports, isn't it? If the goal is to be first in a particular competition or make it to a highly rarefied team, rather than the process, then competitive sports fail the vast majority of the kids to who participate. It is like the lottery, the majority have to lose for someone else to be winner. The more people who lose the greater the win. But many people thrive on competition. So, how do you balance the miniscule odds of success against the other benefits?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I can't think of anyone more qualified than you to ponder that issue. It really is the question of all competitive sports, isn't it? If the goal is to be first in a particular competition or make it to a highly rarefied team, rather than the process, then competitive sports fail the vast majority of the kids to who participate. It is like the lottery, the majority have to lose for someone else to be winner. The more people who lose the greater the win. But many people thrive on competition. So, how do you balance the miniscule odds of success against the other benefits?


You handle it like anyone else. The same goes for every class. I personally compete (well, used to) in Reo's class. I got my butt whipped by him and others like him, but with the crowd that I was after it was game on. That's where I think the NFAA, having a money class and flights (Vegas), got it right. That also means you had to have enough people participating to divide things up that fine, and I don't know if USAA has enough participation.

Others have asked why belong? It's for the organization of tournaments and the opportunity to compete. Sure, we could all shoot on our own, but without some kind of body organizing tournaments, where would we be? I'll tell you where; still standing in our back yards shooting by ourselves.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

United States Archery Members Organization, circa 2012.

I nominate John Magera for President!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess that's up to each set of parents/archer to decide for themselves. But they should at least have all the information they need to make the decision.

I'd love to get a room full of fomer JDT/RA's and their parents and have a serious Q&A session with them.

Questions like: 1) At the end of it all, how many thousands of dollars were spent, 2) How does the young person feel about it all now, and 3) if I had all that money and time to hand to you today, would you choose the same path?

Some candid answers to those questions could really help the youth and families that are heavily involved in our sport.

I know some families of young archers who have actually competed internationally for team USA that are still wondering whether all the time and expense was really worth it.

The argument FOR archery is not always a good one. On the one hand, a fairly talented archer who would probably never be a college athlete in any sport, can work hard and have a reasonable shot at making an international team - IF their family can afford it. On the other hand, the same level of competition can be found at the regional, state and national level in many other sports without having to take a 2nd mortgage on one's home.

It is just puzzling for some to navigate.

The strongest argument I can make for a child to choose archery vs. other more popular sports is that #1, it's a lifetime sport, and #2 it's something the entire family can do together. These two things really put archery ahead of many other sports in my mind.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed:



limbwalker said:


> Curious to me that no code of conduct papers were required for coaches at the trials events. USArchery might just want to look back at how this "rule" has been applied at past events.


It may very well have been that the coaches that were there at the trials already signed the code of conduct for other events. I suspect that the one that I signed when I went to El Salvador will cover me for Nationals.
[/quote]



> Steve,
> 
> I agree on challenging and motivating the youngsters. JOAD has always been a good program for this, and it is why I chose the program for my students. I am not completely familiar with the NFAA youth programs yet, but you can bet your britches that by the end of this summer I will be well versed in them...
> 
> ...


As a dad who's trying to help navigate the waters for his child in conjunction with his coach's advice, I have gleaned some observations and I'm curious as to what the future will hold. Some of those observations are good, some aren't so good.

With regards to being "all in" - I do suspect you're correct in that. But who you know and who's linked to you also has a lot to do with that. Ultimately, scores and performance will be the ultimate key - you cannot go against the score.

I truly await Mary Emmons' role with interest. I realize it's early in the stage of her employment, but the fact that I have not heard much regarding press releases that has her name attached to it is quite fascinating. I was really hoping that a NASP to JOAD transition plan would take place by now. Heck, I've done it with one NASP school here in Arizona...it wasn't that bad to do. But, I haven't seen anything yet.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> I guess that's up to each set of parents/archer to decide for themselves. But they should at least have all the information they need to make the decision.
> 
> I'd love to get a room full of fomer JDT/RA's and their parents and have a serious Q&A session with them.
> 
> ...


When you get to a certain level, the cost of any sport goes up quite a bit.

Picking on baseball, a DeMarini Voodoo bat costs you 300 dollars. That bat might last you two seasons. I know decent arrows that are in the 300 dollar range will last you far longer than that.

Archery is no different. Despite the fact that form is the number one differentiator, when you look at chasing one or two points - that generally means equipment improvements.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> I was really hoping that a NASP to JOAD transition plan would take place by now. Heck, I've done it with one NASP school here in Arizona...it wasn't that bad to do. But, I haven't seen anything yet.


Given her background as a state NASP administrator one would think that Mary Emmons would be likely to work towards that. I wonder, though, at earlier attempts, which seemed always to be on_ transition_ rather than welcoming them into the fold, on "how can we convert these kids from NASP to our kind of archery" rather than "how can we accommodate them in our program". I think a successful tie into NASP has to include allowing the NASP kids to participate and compete as-is rather than telling them "ur doin' it wrong", and letting the kids decide when, or if, they want to transition from barebow.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Given her background as a state NASP administrator one would think that Mary Emmons would be likely to work towards that. I wonder, though, at earlier attempts, which seemed always to be on_ transition_ rather than welcoming them into the fold, on "how can we convert these kids from NASP to our kind of archery" rather than "how can we accommodate them in our program". I think a successful tie into NASP has to include allowing the NASP kids to participate and compete as-is rather than telling them "ur doin' it wrong", and letting the kids decide when, or if, they want to transition from barebow.


Using Arizona as an example, Arizona has specifically done two things.

1) There is a specific NASP category in major and minor state level tournaments. This allows NASP archers to transition in a way that they understand tournament protocol and they shoot a target that they are familiary with at distances they know.

2) There isn't a push to move them out of their equipment. If they want to stick with NASP level stuff, they can. Most, however, take the plunge into either standard compound or recurve.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It may very well have been that the coaches that were there at the trials already signed the code of conduct for other events


Nope.



> When you get to a certain level, the cost of any sport goes up quite a bit.
> 
> Picking on baseball, a DeMarini Voodoo bat costs you 300 dollars. That bat might last you two seasons. I know decent arrows that are in the 300 dollar range will last you far longer than that.
> 
> Archery is no different. Despite the fact that form is the number one differentiator, when you look at chasing one or two points - that generally means equipment improvements.


Sorry. Couldn't disagree with you more. Some of our highest performing archers in the U.S. have spent a mere fraction of what many JDT families have spent in the past few years. And form is of course important, but mental strength is the #1 differentiator, putting equipment a distant 3rd in rank for our sport. I guarantee you I could string up and tune an old GM riser with C+ limbs and ACE's, hand it to Brady, and still have him come out on top of the 3-stage Olympic trials. Mental game - 1, Form -2, and Equipment -3, in that order. Anyone who thinks otherwise is well... nevermind. I'll be kind


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> Using Arizona as an example, Arizona has specifically done two things.
> 
> 1) There is a specific NASP category in major and minor state level tournaments. This allows NASP archers to transition in a way that they understand tournament protocol and they shoot a target that they are familiary with at distances they know.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a good way to go. It would be surprising if USA Archery were nimble enough to make that kind of thing a national roll out.


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## cityhic (Jan 3, 2009)

As an average parent I conclude that the changes aren’t egregious nor convinced that the changes will prevent us from enjoying time with friends and family at nationals. However, I suppose if at the end of our leaders term if I don’t like the direction I could vote for someone else. At the end of the day, I choose to support the leadership because not all decisions by leaders are easy and popular.


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## shootemstraight (Jan 13, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I'd love to get a room full of fomer JDT/RA's and their parents and have a serious Q&A session with them.
> 
> Questions like: 1) At the end of it all, how many thousands of dollars were spent, 2) How does the young person feel about it all now, and 3) if I had all that money and time to hand to you today, would you choose the same path?
> 
> Some candid answers to those questions could really help the youth and families that are heavily involved in our sport.


I wholeheartedly agree!!! If you get that room full - count me in!


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I guess that's up to each set of parents/archer to decide for themselves. But they should at least have all the information they need to make the decision.
> 
> I'd love to get a room full of fomer JDT/RA's and their parents and have a serious Q&A session with them.
> 
> ...


My wife and daughter and I really enjoy our Saturday mornings of shooting together. That's one reason that we've taken the money that we might have used to go to the Nationals this year and spent it instead on a nice new bow for my wife! I'm hoping to be able to drive to the next Nationals next year to keep our costs down -- hopefully these will be held somewhere in the west next year.


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## shootemstraight (Jan 13, 2007)

Sorry - I decided to delete my post... decided my time was better spent going outside to shoot with my kids


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

shootemstraight said:


> Sorry - I decided to delete my post... decided my time was better spent going outside to shoot with my kids


Good for you. I'm about to do the same. I have a JOAD practice to run...



> My wife and daughter and I really enjoy our Saturday mornings of shooting together. That's one reason that we've taken the money that we might have used to go to the Nationals this year and spent it instead on a nice new bow for my wife!


Again Good for you! Precisely the reason I insisted we have an Adult Achievement Program (one of the smartest decisions by USArchery in the past decade!) run alongside our JOAD club. So that parents and kids can shoot together. This accomplishes so many things, and at the same time, takes care of so many potential problems too. 

This year, one of our JOAD moms who has NEVER shot a bow before, commenced to whipping up on the adult men at our state tournament at 50 meters on a 5-ring 80cm face! She was amazing, and so incredibly thrilled that she had learned this new activity so quickly and so well. The fact that she gets to shoot with her son now means so much to them. I couldn't be more proud of her for having the courage to give it a go.

Now, where were those 3 dozen arrows I fletched up this week, that extra sight, spare clicker, score cards, and, uhm, man.... what am I missing. Practice starts in 2 hours!

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Using Arizona as an example, Arizona has specifically done two things.
> 
> 1) There is a specific NASP category in major and minor state level tournaments. This allows NASP archers to transition in a way that they understand tournament protocol and they shoot a target that they are familiary with at distances they know.
> 
> ...


Steve, I love the NASP category for the state event. We absolutely HAVE to do this at next year's State JOAD event...


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, I love the NASP category for the state event. We absolutely HAVE to do this at next year's State JOAD event...


Agreed.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

As an ex-JDT parent I will tell you we spent about 15k a year for equipment, hotels, rental cars, air fair, food, and training. Every year we were told we needed to buy the latest bow from hoyt and new x10's. Matt quit the JDT because of coaching staff, and the inability of the head coach to protect his well being in favor of his coaching staff. He said he was tired of winning for them and then being treated like he wasn't special and being told he wasn't good enough. Coach lee told him that. 

As Matt's parent, I should not have let him be in a environment that was hostel toward my son just so we could have access to lee. It affected Matt in a negative way and he still is having problems because of it. The hostility stemmed from coaches that had personal students on the team. They played favorites and therefore played head games with my son. We filed a protest with the board of justice, the kangaroo court, and it was dismissed without a hearing. All of the same coaches are still there so I guess we lose. 

Matt was abandoned by coach lee in favor of his staff. No one shooter is more important than the archery machine. if you don't win for them or go against the power, then they will turn their back on you. If you leave the program you are branded a quiter and a loser. The machine has ground up and spit out more shooters than it produced. I think there has been just as many coaches kicked to the curb for not preaching the archery gospel. Non of the coaches on the staff even shoot competitively so how can they tell a kid how to shoot If you grab all the talented kids, and they win for you, you can claim your program is a success I guess. 

Use the program to your benefit and get out a quick as possible. It is not worth the money they expect you to spend. Not one person in that program ever thanked me or my wife for all the sacrifices we made to grow a young athlete. 

Matt loves archery so my wife and I do what we can to support him. He is lucky enough to be sponsored by some great companies that help him along, and many of you out there have bought his tab. Thank you for your support. If you shoot the venom tab and you join the JDT, you will be spending your money on the $100 KSL tab. 

good luck. Remember, it's just archery, not brain surgery, so are really that important if you can say you are an elite level coach. No, YOU just think you important.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have seen some of the things you mention first hand. I have also seen some good people (coaches) sacrifice a lot of their own time and money to coach other people's kids. So I have seen both sides I guess. Some of my students were some of the very first JDT archers. A lot has changed since then. None of us first four coaches (Chelsea Barker, Jackie Fiala, Jim Noble and myself) stayed very long. There were too many changes for us to keep up with. Growing pains, I guess. Not all of it was coach Lee's fault. He was learning how to teach his system and more importantly, how to communciate with Americans, which still seems to be a challenge for anyone not from America. 

Personally, I loved being a JDT coach because of the kids. It was always, and only about the kids for me, Chelsea, Jim and Jackie. I can speak for them on that. There were no egos in that group, just four coaches trying to figure out how to best help the talented young archers we had a chance to work with. International teams, elite camps and selection procedures were still a thing of the future. We did not deal with any of those things, but rather tried to figure out what a "Junior Dream Team" would look like and how it would work. 

I would be remiss to not mention Gary too. A most helpful and good natured man. He was there helping from the beginning as well.

Ultimately, I had to leave the program for two reasons. #1, my vacation time was gone, and I had to wonder if it was fair to my own wife and kids that I was spending all my vacation time helping other people's kids. #2, it was pretty clear that coach Lee's method had not yet taken shape 100%, and that he was experimenting on various archers at the OTC. Now, I don't say that to be critical. A good coach SHOULD experiment and continue to learn what works and what doesn't. But personally I didn't have time to have to learn a new way to teach every few months, so I figured I'd come back when I had more time, and when the system had settled out a bit. It appears as though it has nowdays.

I agree 100% that what we were doing was not brain surgery. We were not a team of scientists researching a cure for cancer or a team of economists trying to relieve the housing bubble. Any archery coach that thinks they have some special "gift" or "status" because of a number behind their name is just delusional. You are correct about that. Because we teach a game. How to play and play well. Some have forgotten that. Some have a lot of money invested in the game and they cannot accept that. But at the end of the day, it's still just a game, and society will keep going right along, with or without "elite" coaches.

Another veteran JOAD coach and I were just talking today, and we agree. The most important thing a coach can do is to make sure their archer becomes a good, well rounded person who occasionally shoots arrows.

John


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

"The most important thing a coach can do is to make sure their archer becomes a good, well rounded person who occasionally shoots arrows."

BINGO, BINGO, BINGO!!!!!!! That's why I stay here in the north woods and teach/coach!!!!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, I love the NASP category for the state event. We absolutely HAVE to do this at next year's State JOAD event...


Diverting away briefly, the NASP category allows your host a huge amount of flexibility. Indoor - you have the ability to put bales out at 10 yards and use a 60 centimeter 10 ring target, or a 122 cm 10 ring target at 15 yards.

Outdoor, you can put the target bale out at 15 or 20, with a 122 cm target face.

What I also recommend is what a local JOAD club (Papago FITA Archers) will do. They put on a quarterly fun shoot - 90 arrows, 3 distances. The NASP shooters (regardless of age) will shoot 20, 15, and 10 meters. This allows the kids to get used to a more typical FITA format, and they get exposed to other archers from both recurve and compound disciplines. 

The fun shoots brings out quite a few NASP shooters. It has the unintended consequence of having the inexperienced archer (no matter which discipline) learn good tournament format habits.

The club I work for specifically takes advantage of the 900 tournaments that Papago puts on. It allows our new kids to learn tournament archery in a low stress environment and they have a bunchaton of fun while they are at it.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Update: I have been told in an email from Denise Parker that personal coach registration for 2012 Nationals will be done on site at the field.

FYI - Steve


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Fact is, there HAS to be a good program in place to capture the enthusiasm of the NASP kids and give them somewhere to go. Where is that going to be? JOAD? NFAA? IBO? who knows.


John, the leader of the smallest unit is what makes or breaks the effect for the yewts. and I would be lazy if I did not promote the 4H as another group that needs to be considered. And with 4H, as with any of the other groups, it is the heart, the center, the main force of the group - the organizing adult's dedication. (Or group of adults). In 15 years of involvement, time and again it is the heart that drives the body of the group. If the heart has brains, it's a bonus! <grin>


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

gairsz said:


> As an ex-JDT parent I will tell you we spent


 I hear you, and have that t-shirt, of sorts. I'm sorry every time I hear another parent with the same negative experiences I had, and wonder about the inevitability of it. I will say that some things do improve including youth archery and coach relationships, even if for the wrong reasons. 

A parent/coach can only protect the child, educate both, and hope to teach the life lessons that surpass the momentary events. 

I am certain one young lady I know is what she is in part because of her discipline in the sport, and in part because of nothing to do with archery. Likewise other fine young women such as CB, JN, JF, and many more have archery as a part of their formation as an adult. The initials are not accurate, so to speak....
One has only to look to certain JOADs to see how bad it can be, and to others to see how big of a revelation to a life it can be. No names. You each KNOW who you are....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Update: I have been told in an email from Denise Parker that personal coach registration for 2012 Nationals will be done on site at the field.
> 
> FYI - Steve


 has anyone figured if a coach has to pay 20 bucks for each kid or for each tournament? If its for each kid any thought I ever had of donating money (in addition to the thousands I do now for my program) to the organization just went down the toilet


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Is it me or did USA Archery delete that comment thread?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, it doesn't really matter does it? I mean, one kid or 10, how will anyone know who you're coaching unless they have a "coach Nazi" following us around.

It's all so damn absurd. And particularly insulting to those of us who have donated so much of our lives to the JOAD program, and ultimately, the NAA. 

If I must, I'll get my one "credential" and be done with it. 

Or I may just tell a select few of my student's parents what the deal is, point out who's in charge, and let them deal with it 

It will be fine, and it just might be fun! 

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

gairsz said:


> If you shoot the venom tab and you join the JDT, you will be spending your money on the $100 KSL tab.


And you have to pay coach Lee for his $60 book, too.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Lets see-I sent USArchery another check to remain "Certified" as a coach. I also had to pay some organization to do a "background check" on me. While I am not going to discuss what I do for a living on this forum, plenty of you know how idiotic that was-I was told the background checks I get in my profession were "not sufficient"

btw the background check that is done when you buy a gun or when the cops pull you over is about as extensive as the one that is done for the coaching

so after spending 47.50 to be a "certified coach" (and I am not figuring in the moneys spent to do BEST at CS and then the level 3/4 at CV in 06 ( and then be told that that "Best" was not really BEST but was a precursor of the Current BEST) we are told we have to pay 20 bucks to coach kids we don't charge to coach in the first place

I figure over the last 15 years the NAA has reaped at least 100 memberships due solely to me and my club. Plus we ran two JOAD nationals which were widely regarded as among the best ever, an 04 Olympic trials among other things

I am starting to feel a bit under appreciated!!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> Plus we ran two JOAD nationals which were widely regarded as among the best ever, an 04 Olympic trials among other things


Is it too late to send them an invoice for your time? At your professional rates, of course.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Warbow said:


> Is it too late to send them an invoice for your time? At your professional rates, of course.


Great Idea, I could give every kid in Ohio who shot in our state JOAD a pair of HPX/F7 bows two dozen X10 arrows!


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

Yeah they took down the comment I started on Facebook. This should be good. Guess I'll be at their annual meeting on the 28th and I suggest that the rest of you attend also. I will be the loud younger gentleman who doesn't agree with what is happening if anyone else would like to discuss this topic in person.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Lets see-I sent USArchery another check to remain "Certified" as a coach. I also had to pay some organization to do a "background check" on me. While I am not going to discuss what I do for a living on this forum, plenty of you know how idiotic that was-I was told the background checks I get in my profession were "not sufficient"
> 
> btw the background check that is done when you buy a gun or when the cops pull you over is about as extensive as the one that is done for the coaching
> 
> ...


And Jim, all this certification has gotten you what so far? 

A nationally known coach here in the US once said "I don't need some piece of paper to tell me I can coach". I think I'm following his philosophy, although my reason is probably more about means than his.


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

They also blocked the ability for people to post on their page. Interesting!... lol.. Guess they don't like opinions of their members being voiced


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

Huntmaster said:


> And Jim, all this certification has gotten you what so far?
> 
> A nationally known coach here in the US once said "I don't need some piece of paper to tell me I can coach". I think I'm following his philosophy, although my reason is probably more about means than his.


My former coach said this daily and it is something he proved. I learned more from him than the last three classes I attended.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> And Jim, all this certification has gotten you what so far?
> 
> A nationally known coach here in the US once said "I don't need some piece of paper to tell me I can coach". I think I'm following his philosophy, although my reason is probably more about means than his.


I have never had a kid ask me-they just look out how the other kids are doing.

but I used to believe in this organization. 

and I backed it up with about 500-800 hours a year since 1997 or so

oh well


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I have never had a kid ask me-they just look out how the other kids are doing.
> 
> but I used to believe in this organization.
> 
> ...


And that is what is so frustrating.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Some of "THE WELL KNOWN GUYS" cannot for reasons of privacy (I cannot go into it right now!)cannot use Facebook! 


num1archr said:


> I posted up on the USA Archery Facebook page. Please get some discussion going. While a few of us check on here, over 5000 people check that out. Lets bring this to the masses and see what they say, but i'm a nobody, it would be good to have some of you well known guys to comment, even if you are for the change lets hear it.


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

Clarifications, on behalf of USA Archery: 

1. The Personal Coach Policy posted at usarchery.org specifies that an archer must request a specific coach. If multiple archers request the same coach, there is no additional charge after the first credential to the coach, but each archer who wishes to be coached must request that coach.

2. All who have thoughts, feedback, etc. on this topic have been encouraged to bring them to the Annual Meeting, which will be held on June 28 at the Riverfront Courtyard Marriott at 8:00 p.m. Members who have concerns about this policy are encouraged to bring that feedback to the meeting in a forum where that feedback can be presented to the Board of Directors and the staff of the organization.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> USA Archery is the Non-Governmental Body (NGB) that is contractually responsible to the United States Olympic Committee for handling the sport of archery within the United States. They are basically the sanctioning body that connects upward (via World Archery Americas) to World Archery.
> 
> Isn't it NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY (NGB)?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I have never had a kid ask me-they just look out how the other kids are doing.


I kinda think that's my point to be honest. Either you can coach, or you can't. There are people on both sides with a coaching certificate. I guess I looked at it and tried to figure out how it would benifit me....I mean it's not like the name on the certificate goes into some national databank with a rating system (like hotels) so that thousands of people from all corners of the counrty know who to go to for coaching. I just wish that market niche was that big LOL


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> Lets see-I sent USArchery another check to remain "Certified" as a coach. I also had to pay some organization to do a "background check" on me. While I am not going to discuss what I do for a living on this forum, plenty of you know how idiotic that was-I was told the background checks I get in my profession were "not sufficient"
> 
> btw the background check that is done when you buy a gun or when the cops pull you over is about as extensive as the one that is done for the coaching
> 
> ...


Because I do work in the Healthcare, Energy, and Education markets, the State of Arizona requires me to have a Fingerprint Clearance Card, which is one of the most extensive background checks out there. 

Yet my background vetting isn't enough either.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

red_elan10 said:


> Clarifications, on behalf of USA Archery:
> 
> 1. The Personal Coach Policy posted at usarchery.org specifies that an archer must request a specific coach. If multiple archers request the same coach, there is no additional charge after the first credential to the coach, but each archer who wishes to be coached must request that coach.
> 
> 2. All who have thoughts, feedback, etc. on this topic have been encouraged to bring them to the Annual Meeting, which will be held on June 28 at the Riverfront Courtyard Marriott at 8:00 p.m. Members who have concerns about this policy are encouraged to bring that feedback to the meeting in a forum where that feedback can be presented to the Board of Directors and the staff of the organization.


Teresa,

I have one minor question. Well, two. 

1) is the 45 day rule posed in the Bylaws waived?

2) Will there be time in the agenda for questions?

Thanks,
Steve


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

red_elan10 said:


> Clarifications, on behalf of USA Archery:
> 
> 1. The Personal Coach Policy posted at usarchery.org specifies that an archer must request a specific coach. If multiple archers request the same coach, there is no additional charge after the first credential to the coach, but each archer who wishes to be coached must request that coach.
> 
> 2. All who have thoughts, feedback, etc. on this topic have been encouraged to bring them to the Annual Meeting, which will be held on June 28 at the Riverfront Courtyard Marriott at 8:00 p.m. Members who have concerns about this policy are encouraged to bring that feedback to the meeting in a forum where that feedback can be presented to the Board of Directors and the staff of the organization.


Thank you Teresa for the clarification. That helps a great deal. Do you know why or how this came about in the first place? Maybe if someone would explain the reasoning behind this people would not be so upset about it. Also does every coach have to pay this fee? Does Lee? How can they create the rule 10 days before the tournament? Have they emailed EVERY shooter to explain this to them? This seems like very asymmetric information to me since so few know about it. Seems like every archer should be given equal opportunity to bring a coach.


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

Hi Steve - I'm not sure of the answers to your questions, and on something that important, don't want to take a guess and be incorrect - so to be sure, I would recommend emailing Denise to get those answers since it concerns the bylaws. 

On a personal note and speaking for myself only, I have attended the last few annual meetings (since 2009) and have seen people be given an opportunity to address the Board members in attendance with new business and general questions at every single one. I can't say for sure whether or not people submitted those topics in advance, but they opened the floor for questions and discussion in each of the Annual Meeting I've attended.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Huntmaster said:


> A nationally known coach here in the US once said "I don't need some piece of paper to tell me I can coach". I think I'm following his philosophy, although my reason is probably more about means than his.


What are you talking about? I have a level 2, and four-time Olympian Khatuna Lorig has a level 2, so clearly I must be just as qualified to teach Olympic level archery after my 16 hour course as Khatuna Lorig :wink:


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

num1archr - 

You're welcome. Regarding how the decision came about, all I know is that it was voted on and approved by the Board of Directors, per Denise's blog that is posted on usarchery.org. I can tell you that they did have strict credentialing controls in place at the last Olympic Trials (for coaches as well as media) - every archer who wanted a coach had to credential the coach, up to and including Coach Lee and Coach Guy Krueger. There was a sheet to note at any moment which coach was assigned to which archer(s) and all coaches were credentialed. This is similar to what is done at World Cups, where all coaches must be credentialed and I believe there is a credentialing fee for every single coach, which the coach's country/team pays. Credentialing is stringently enforced and everyone is on their "best behavior." 

Speaking from my personal perspective as a certified coach and a JOAD club leader, (opinions which I have not expressed to USA Archery), I can say that this policy puts into place some much-needed accountability regarding coaches who have consistently disregarded the rules about where they are allowed access during competition. 

As a club coach since 2007, I have often felt it was unfair when I've had archers on the line and have obeyed the rules, only to see others consistently hanging out in the archers' tents and/or walking up to the shooting line when they were not supposed to be - including parents using that as an excuse to "helicopter" around their kids during a national event (this is by no means meant to be disrespectful to true parent coaches such as Jim and Liz, but rather for those parents who aren't legitimately coaching but hovering). 

When this happens, it's primarily unfair to the archers - those coaches who are standing and coaching from where they shouldn't be are a distraction to the archers and are also giving their archers a level of attention that not all on the line can get. Many of you know that though I coach, I am now at most events working on a media credential - and will always tell my students that if they need help, they need to talk to me over the spectator fence if I have my photo credential on, and I will walk back there before I give coaching advice to any of the archers I work with. 

Also - on more than a couple of occasions, archers I personally coach have been approached by other coaches with either offers of coaching or unsolicited advice - one actually having been given unsolicited shooting form advice during the first Olympic Team Trials by a coach who was credentialed to another athlete. Granted, archers should be able to shut out distractions and ignore "advice" that isn't requested, but the reality is that with a policy like this in place and a big, obvious credential around a coach's neck, it will presumably be easier for a judge to enforce the guidelines regarding who should be where. 

The very worst example of this that comes to mind was at one of last year's USAT Qualifiers, where the a judge consistently had to ask a parent who was coaching her child to leave the area between the archer's tent and the waiting line. She stood over her son on and off for almost two hours during qualifications "coaching" him from an area she shouldn't have been in in the first place, at one point screaming at him so that everyone could hear her, "You just shot a miss! I'd say your tournament is over!" 

So - though many coaches - such as Jim and Liz, Steve, John, Tom and others - are coaches of the highest caliber with manners and regard for the rules, the reality is that not everybody follows them. Again - just my two cents. (Sorry - wow, that was a lot).


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

Teresa - 
Thank you. I believe if things would be explained in this manner from the start we wouldn't have 4 pages of replies on this topic. Although I still don't agree with the decision I at least have a better understanding of it. Also, the way myself and many others read it made it sound as if every archer had to pay 20 dollars to have a coach, or every coach had to pay 20 dollars for each archer. The one thing I don't agree with is how can they enforce a rule that no one has been informed about unless you are "in the know"? 
I feel awkward enough talking to one of my kids on the line at a state or local shoot, I can't even imagine doing it at a national event. 

Once again thank you for your input


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

red_elan10 said:


> num1archr -
> 
> You're welcome. Regarding how the decision came about, all I know is that it was voted on and approved by the Board of Directors, per Denise's blog that is posted on usarchery.org. I can tell you that they did have strict credentialing controls in place at the last Olympic Trials (for coaches as well as media) - every archer who wanted a coach had to credential the coach, up to and including Coach Lee and Coach Guy Krueger. There was a sheet to note at any moment which coach was assigned to which archer(s) and all coaches were credentialed. This is similar to what is done at World Cups, where all coaches must be credentialed and I believe there is a credentialing fee for every single coach, which the coach's country/team pays. Credentialing is stringently enforced and everyone is on their "best behavior."
> 
> ...


Teresa, this was a great clarification and I just came on this thread today. Sorry for being such an AT slacker. I have paid a credential fee for every USAT Ranking event that offered one over the past two years. It was anywhere from $10-$20 depending on the event and was given a badge or credential to wear. Many coaches did this and everyone who was certified as a "coach" by USA Archery was eligible to purchase a field credential. At the 1st Olympic trials Stage last year I purchased a credential so that I could work with Mackenzie Brown. All other coaches had to purchase a credential to gain field access and that credential had to be requested by the archer.

I think this is a good policy and there is nothing that says that someone actually has to be certified as a coach, they only have to be requested by the archer(s) as a coach and pay a one-time credentialing fee per event.

In international events all staff and coaches who wish to gain field access (up to the waiting line) must purchase a credential which can cost from $50-$100. At some international events with restricted access there can only be a number of coaches on the field which equals the number of divisions competing at a given time and never more coaches on the field than athletes from that country. Other open events allow any number of credentialed coaches access to the field (you can have a coach behind everey archer).

For every parent/instructor/coach who has ever griped about not being allowed to go up on the line and coach your archer, this is a golden opportunity to actually be treated the same as those elitists that you complain about. Now for a good point and a bad point:

Good Point: This eliminates the social butterfly coaches who just buy a credential and roam the line handing out info to anyone who is present whether they need it or not. The coach has to work with specific archers.

Bad Point: Your student/protege'/child may not want you coaching them and will cut you off from field access. (or maybe this is another good point) 

Give this time and you will see tha it allows better field and archer access and coaching opportunity and be more like the international events.

JMHO


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

I just want to give a little history on this coaching issue.
I have been the Tournament Director for many JOAD and US Nationals starting in 2002.
Now I have no idea what they are doing it this year as I am not involved with the Nationals/EJN for the past 2 years.

We (LOC and USAA staff) have talked about this coaching issues very year I was involved. 
The problem was that on the JOAD side, if the field was open to the coaches you would have 300 archers and maybe 200 coaches. There would not be enough seating in the archer’s seating area. Physically not enough room and we would have to rent many more chairs.
We believed that we should have coaches on the field but from previous tournaments they had almost as many coaches on the field as archers. And there we issues of coaches disrupting the other archers.
I remember 15 years ago, coaches would use hand signals from the spectator area.
I was told the judges would not police rule of only archers in the archer’s area. So the decision was to just keep all coaches behind the spectator line.
So I believe that this is a step forward, even though I think that the cost is a little high. (IMHO)

At international tournaments they do require coaches to have credentials. They cost from $75 to $150 per coach. They also may limit the number of coaches as for every 3 or 4 archers a country is allowed 1 coach.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Good explanations Dee and Steve but it still somewhat reminds me of Milton Friedman's discussion on Occupational Licensure in his classic Capitalism and Freedom:

Occupational Licensure

Friedman takes a radical stance against all forms of state licensure. The biggest advocates for licenses in an industry are, usually, the people in the industry, wishing to keep out potential competitors.

Now I know Steve and Dee (as well as others) don't advocate keeping out potential competitors as they actively volunteer to bring in more coaching competitors. But, the fees on top of the already high registration fee, which on first pass looked to be per archer, does appear to be an artificial barrier. Moreover, the insufficient communication of the policy just days before the event can make the discontent understandable.

The real issue is the huge disparity in skill set and experience of the archers, parents and coaches in this event. You have beginning archers with maybe only a parent as the sole resource all the way to Olympic caliber athletes with multiple resources. One size does not fit all, yet we try and apply a single policy to everyone. I think having this as a single event only exacerbates this flaw and is likely an unintended consequence of combining EJN and NTC. (six arrow ends and the individual face for the adults at 50M is another one.) I fear we may find more next week.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

TomB said:


> Good explanations Dee and Steve but it still somewhat reminds me of Milton Friedman's discussion on Occupational Licensure in his classic Capitalism and Freedom:
> 
> Occupational Licensure
> 
> ...


Tom, I totally agree with what you are saying and I didn't/don't advocate a fee for credentialing. I do advocate that coaches should coach specific archers and not just roam around socially in the equipment area.

The fee aside, which should be discussed at length, I think this is a step in the right direction for USA Arachery. I think it should be taken one step farther though. Anyone wishing to be coaching in the equipment area must first attend a brief class hosted by a Senior Judge and our Coach Development Manager where protocal, behavior, protest filing, and allowable actions by the coach are discussed and the proper paperwork is signed. A card or token could be given out signifyng that the class had been attended and that token presented at future tournaments when the coach is requested by an archer(s).

I think that without some minimal proper education this policy could backfire and fail becauses there may be some who just don't know the proper protocal on the line. Talking both ways is an example. Many don't know that ther can only be a one-way conversation between coach and archer, not a dialogue.

Just a few ideas to help the process.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

red_elan10 said:


> Clarifications, on behalf of USA Archery:
> 
> 1. The Personal Coach Policy posted at usarchery.org specifies that an archer must request a specific coach. If multiple archers request the same coach, there is no additional charge after the first credential to the coach, but each archer who wishes to be coached must request that coach.
> 
> 2. All who have thoughts, feedback, etc. on this topic have been encouraged to bring them to the Annual Meeting, which will be held on June 28 at the Riverfront Courtyard Marriott at 8:00 p.m. Members who have concerns about this policy are encouraged to bring that feedback to the meeting in a forum where that feedback can be presented to the Board of Directors and the staff of the organization.


Thanks for the clarification Teresa. Seems reasonable to me. I don't mind the coaching credential, so long as I only need one for all my archers (which only makes sense). The $20 I could do without. Every year, I feel like I'm hemmoraging cash out of my own pocket to stay involved with the NAA, so that I can volunteer my own time to coach other people who hemmorage more cash to the NAA. I'd love to know if certain "USArchery" coaches are asked to pay out of their own pockets for these credentials, for the travel expenses associated with attending these events with their students, etc. The fact that certain athletes and coaches are subsidized by the USOC and NAA membership really creates an enviroment of inequality that I feel needs to be addressed. Whether as a voting membership, or through the legal system. It simply is not fair that coaches like Jim, Tom and myself who bring dozens of top performing archers to these events, are expected to pay 100% out of our own pockets while "team" members who are selected for the national programs are HEAVILY subsidized, and oftentimes selected through purely subjective means. 

For the record, I truly believe we need a national coach, a national training center and a place for Olympic hopefuls to hone their craft to best represent the U.S. at international competitions. However, we also need to EQUALLY support archers and their coaches who choose an alternative route, especially when they are producing tangible results equal to, or in some cases, beyond what is being produced under the national training center.

In other worlds, results should speak for themselves, and should be rewarded. If a system (be it a nationally sponsored one or a private one) is working, then it should be recognized and rewarded. We used to have programs like that in place, but in the past 6 years, MUCH money has been spent with little accountability and questionable results that could just as well have gone to archers who chose private coaches and programs.

This is America, and our entire history of success was built on the idea of fair competition. If the national training systems are the best tool for the job, then they should easily earn their share of revenue through the success of their program. Likewise, archers and coaches who choose another route should have a fair and equal opportunity to compete for said resources. And then let the chips fall where they may...

John


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> Tom, I totally agree with what you are saying and I didn't/don't advocate a fee for credentialing. I do advocate that coaches should coach specific archers and not just roam around socially in the equipment area.
> 
> The fee aside, which should be discussed at length, I think this is a step in the right direction for USA Arachery. I think it should be taken one step farther though. Anyone wishing to be coaching in the equipment area must first attend a brief class hosted by a Senior Judge and our Coach Development Manager where protocal, behavior, protest filing, and allowable actions by the coach are discussed and the proper paperwork is signed. A card or token could be given out signifyng that the class had been attended and that token presented at future tournaments when the coach is requested by an archer(s).
> 
> ...


good upgrades! sounds like a good addition to the "coaches" certification process, perhaps even on line.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

TomB said:


> good upgrades! sounds like a good addition to the "coaches" certification process, perhaps even on line.


The online Level I course is almost complete, it should be easy to add a couple of modules on Tournament Coaching. Great idea Tom. Maybe there's another new program that we could use some online training for too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One follow up thought to my post above...

One other reason for the USOC/USArchery/NAA to find ways to equally subsidize archers within and outside of the national training programs is to promote rigorous competition so that we KNOW the best archers are being produced, and are finding the strongest competition they can to test themselves against. What good does it do the JDT or RA archers to enjoy the benefits of being subsidized only to find out that they are basically the only competition on the field? I have seen this before, where the RA's or JDT members stop competing and training to their fullest becuase they well know that their spot on a USAT or Jr. USAT team is all but locked up by virtue of the fact that they will simply attend more ranking events than the non-program archers. This helps noone. They NEED strong competition. And the best way to deliver that is by ensuring that the best archers around the U.S. are able to attend as many events as possible. In the past, for the senior men, this competition was always ensured because of the personal efforts and sacrifices of archers like Butch, Vic, Joe and Jason. However, we have entered a period now where we may no longer have that kind of "outside" competition to test the OTC program against. At least on the men's side. Fortunately, we are in the midst of a period on the women's side where this is still the case, with archers like Jenny and Miranda virtually ensuring that the ladies at the OTC will always have to bring their "A" game...

It is something a high performance program should strongly consider, and encourage.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

TomB said:


> Good explanations Dee and Steve but it still somewhat reminds me of Milton Friedman's discussion on Occupational Licensure in his classic Capitalism and Freedom:
> 
> Occupational Licensure
> 
> ...


Tom,

A few observations while playing devil's advocate here merely for discussion points.

1) You mention that there is a huge disparity in skill set. Attending a national event should be used as a learning process, but only when that archer is ready from a mental standpoint and skill level. Ironically, I'm not talking skill level of the archer in how well they shoot, but in the other needed skills - like entering in their scores neatly, being able to add, and other things like that while the archer is downrange at the bale. 

2) Olympic caliber athletes (or the higher performing ones) differ from the lower skill ones merely because they have been drilled in the background tasks that make tournaments run smoothly. The shooting part is not relevant - it's how the archer does downrange that makes things work well.

3) After my own first true international tournament experience as a coach while traveling to El Salvador, I have some admiration for the credentialing process. Even after working the Arizona Cup a few times as a volunteer, I didn't really count that as an "international tournament" mainly since it's operating down the freeway from my house. I see the need for it, and I see the reasoning for it.

4) Is it too much to ask that parents, coaches, and archers elevate their game in order to go to Nationals? This may sound a bit cruel, but you are participating in a national level tournament. This isn't something you go to at a local level. And USA Archery has mentioned in one of their planning documents (High Performance Plan for 2011?) that they intend for Nationals to mimic what people see internationally so that it prepares archers for that level.

Single policies work if you have people willing to play that game at that level.

Now, I'm going to play the other side of the fence. Again - devil's advocate here.

5) EJN should be more of a developmental level tournament. With that being said, the Bowmen and Cub divisions have some of the lowest counts out there. Using Bowmen Male Compound as an example, you have only 11 people registered. I know that three of the kids registered have been to Nationals before, so they won't have issues. The other 8 - who knows? As a judge who has DOS'ed before at national events, I know that there will be a learning process for some of the new kids. Having EJN as a separate developmental tournament at the same venue, even if it has it's own judging/timing crew, will be better for the kids and for the people at the other end of the field who aren't part of the EJN experience.

6) Parents need to know their place. Even if the parent is doing the role of coach, parent, and travel agent - they need to clearly understand the differences in each role. At last year's EJN in Sacramento, Doug Ludwig (as a judge) and Mike Cullumber (as COJ) had to spend more time playing traffic cop and mediator down in the Bowmen/Cub area of the field than their normal jobs as judges. This can be mitigated by proper training of the parents BEFORE they step foot onto the field. 

7) Parents need to sign a code of conduct. I sign one as a coach. Why not the parents? This way, it clearly states what they can and cannot do. Ignorance of not reading it isn't USA Archery's problem. 

8) Mild snarky comment - unless you're on the level of a Reo, Dave, Erika, Jamie, and others on that same caliber, the 6 arrow end and individual face won't be a problem. 

9) I agree that this is bad timing. If the credentialing issue was important enough to pass, USA Archery Bylaws do allow an emergency board session via email. This could have been ratified earlier AND in time for more people to digest.

10) Personal view #1 - Some parents are going to be shocked and a little ticked. 

11) Personal view #2 - I think it will make things run smoother

12) Personal view #3 - for the Bowmen and Cubs, this will definitely show who has their mental game and show who didn't prepare for this. Even on the Bowmen level, you have kids who have their mental game to where coaches and parents are there only for the oddball equipment issue. The rest of the time, they are on autopilot - this is nothing more than another tournament to them.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ldfalks said:


> Tom, I totally agree with what you are saying and I didn't/don't advocate a fee for credentialing. I do advocate that coaches should coach specific archers and not just roam around socially in the equipment area.
> 
> The fee aside, which should be discussed at length, I think this is a step in the right direction for USA Arachery. I think it should be taken one step farther though. Anyone wishing to be coaching in the equipment area must first attend a brief class hosted by a Senior Judge and our Coach Development Manager where protocal, behavior, protest filing, and allowable actions by the coach are discussed and the proper paperwork is signed. A card or token could be given out signifyng that the class had been attended and that token presented at future tournaments when the coach is requested by an archer(s).
> 
> ...


I'm helping teach a Level 2 class just before I leave for Nationals. I think I may very well incorporate the discussion of protocol, behavior, protest filing, and other stuff into the class.

Thanks for the idea!
-Steve


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Stand back behind the lines and us a megaphone. Or have the kids run back to you in the section where spectators can watch.. Ok all kidding aside.

I think Jim is correct, just another way to separate those that have and those who don't.....more and more it is becoming an elitist sport in the recurve division.

Shoot IBO..no problems there.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

[QUOTE Having EJN as a separate developmental tournament at the same venue, even if it has it's own judging/timing crew, will be better for the kids and for the people at the other end of the field who aren't part of the EJN experience.][/QUOTE]

Bingo!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ArtV said:


> Shoot IBO..no problems there.


More snarky commentary....

If more people shot IBO, maybe the awards ceremony would occur at the end of the tournament rather than at the next one?

(For those of you who aren't aware - IBO had a shoot in Erie. People who won has to wait until the next IBO tournament to receive their awards. Very interesting commentary from people like Cara Fernandez, Dan McCarthy, and Levi Morgan on this in Facebook. Very bad considering some contingency rules require a photo of you with the award before you can claim your contingency money.)


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## shootemstraight (Jan 13, 2007)

Beastmaster said:


> 4) Is it too much to ask that parents, coaches, and archers elevate their game in order to go to Nationals? This may sound a bit cruel, but you are participating in a national level tournament. This isn't something you go to at a local level....
> 
> 8) Mild snarky comment - unless you're on the level of a Reo, Dave, Erika, Jamie, and others on that same caliber, the 6 arrow end and individual face won't be a problem.
> 
> 12) Personal view #3 - for the Bowmen and Cubs, this will definitely show who has their mental game and show who didn't prepare for this. Even on the Bowmen level, you have kids who have their mental game to where coaches and parents are there only for the oddball equipment issue. The rest of the time, they are on autopilot - this is nothing more than another tournament to them.


Steve - I have to disagree with your #4. I think that opinion is quite distructive to the good of the USAA. I will agree that CONDUCT needs to be at an appropriate "national tournament" level, but your comment implies that your score needs to be a certain level or stay home. I hope I misunderstood. Again - please remember that some areas of the country provide MANY more "local level" opportunities than others. There's nothing wrong with this being the only "big" tournament that a local "recreational archer" attends, regardless of "their game".

#8 - seriously? You don't think the 6-ring target at 50 meters is going to be a problem for our barebow shooters and many adult recurve shooters????? Even if it's windy? Believe me - it is NOT going to be FUN!!!!

#12 - Prepared for what? I believe my youngest son is more "typical" of a joad shooter, or at least the "old time" joad shooter. He wins all local (indoor) tournaments, so is a reasonable shot, but not "exceptional", but "average". He just likes archery and enjoys shooting as a family and with other kids his age, who also shoot recurves. He just wants to do his best and that's that. It's all about the "experience" for him. He has ZERO "mental game" and his idea of "preparing" is getting a sight mark (twice) and throwing some USAA legal shorts in the suitcase. He has great line etiquette and knows the rules (except how to shoot a team round - but that's a different thread!!!). He also understands that others are "more serious" and is VERY sensitive to not wanting to "hurt" their chances of sucess. To me, he is the lifeblood of the future USAA. For every "elite" shooter, there are 100s of "non-elite" member paying dues!

And for those who are more like my youngest, but don't have appropriate tournament etiquette (or know all the rules)... how about including a printed page in the registration packet that summarizes "things to know". Really, if a child from a few of our local joad clubs would go to nationals, they would be LOST!!! Can't we do something, as an organization, to help those situations?

My experience has been that if tournament organizers demonstrate that they are there to make sure EVERYONE knows what's going on and what's expected, then little Jimmy's "average" parents aren't so quick to jump in. It's when there appears to be an inbalance that more parents get miffed and problems arise. 

I understand... this is a "national tournament" and everyone *should* know, understand, and follow the rules. But, that's not reality. If we make it a WELCOMING event, by HELPING archers/coaches/parents/families then MAYBE we'll have something to that people are begging to be a part of!!!


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## Blunt Arrow (Mar 2, 2006)

We need to form a new archery organization for the everyday shooter that wants to go out and enjoy there sport. It's very clear at this point that USA archery doesn't know how to run a business and make money. There interest is to raise money and promote the top shooters. They have no interest in the rest of us. As A senior I no longer attend shoots because I don't want to shoot at the smaller face targets that they now want everyone to shot at. If they keep going in this direction they will not have a membership to support them.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

shootemstraight said:


> He also understands that others are "more serious" and is VERY sensitive to not wanting to "hurt" their chances of sucess. To me, he is the lifeblood of the future USAA. For every "elite" shooter, there are 100s of "non-elite" member paying dues!


As with politicians, I think USAA is more beholden to the big sponsors than its actual base, the dues paying majority base of typical members, so that means the attention goes to the elite programs that engender the big sponsorships. But who knows, maybe the new industry sponsored USAA outreach coordinator position will serve to widen USAA's attention and service to a broader base?



Blunt Arrow said:


> We need to form a new archery organization for the everyday shooter that wants to go out and enjoy there sport. It's very clear at this point that USA archery doesn't know how to run a business and make money. There interest is to raise money and promote the top shooters. They have no interest in the rest of us. As A senior I no longer attend shoots because I don't want to shoot at the smaller face targets that they now want everyone to shot at. If they keep going in this direction they will not have a membership to support them.


There is a conundrum. The competitive shooters are also some the the most passionate about archery, kind of people who buy lots of gear, and pay dues to archery clubs. Trying to rally people around a more populist organization, more middle of the road, is a tough sell. It's the kind of think I advocate for, but I also think that it doesn't really lend its self well to a national organization that local clubs would be likely to join, given that they can already choose NFAA. I'd like to see the USAA become more service oriented to the base. I think their increased support for the AAP helps in that regard, as does the position of outreach coordinator.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If they keep going in this direction they will not have a membership to support them.


I'm afraid you may be correct. And I'm also afraid that those with the most influence (both within and from outside the organization) may not really care, as they have other plans for the direction of USArchery. Time will tell if the concerns of the membership are addressed, or ignored. I think the next 2-3 years will potentially make or break USArchery.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I'm afraid you may be correct. And I'm also afraid that those with the most influence (both within and from outside the organization) may not really care, as they have other plans for the direction of USArchery. Time will tell if the concerns of the membership are addressed, or ignored. I think the next 2-3 years will potentially make or break USArchery.
> 
> John


What do you suppose USAA would be like in the unlikely event it lost its NGB status? Would they be forced to pay more attention to the needs of the base? Is its entrenched position as gatekeeper also its problem?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

shootemstraight said:


> I understand... this is a "national tournament" and everyone *should* know, understand, and follow the rules. But, that's not reality. If we make it a WELCOMING event, by HELPING archers/coaches/parents/families then MAYBE we'll have something to that people are begging to be a part of!!!


I think this is a misconseption to start with. You can't learn if you don't go. I went to Nationals for the first time and shot once, and so has everyone else. You observe and do as the masses. There's nothing wrong with a newbie coming to Nationals, as long as they understand they're going to be shooting against the best....or WITH the best is the way I like to look at it. 

And your son has a perfect mental game. It sounds like you're saying he brings his game to the tournament and lets the chips fall where they may. That's as good as it gets.


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

I talked with Denise Parker today. She said that she is going to make an announcement about the New Coaching policy to better clarify things to EVERYONE. She also said there will be time at the meeting to field questions and concerns. She asked that I provide topics of discussion and she would share them with the director before the meeting. She has been very proactive in responding to my questions and concerns even though she is extremely busy in Ogden. I have to say as frustrated and upset as I was before I am not now. I may not always agree with what happens but as long as something positive is happening I will not rock the boat(to hard). She also said their grassroots budget has expanded this year and she has great confidence in the new coordinator. Although I am not happy about paying $20, I will do so and support the kids from my club. Now its time for JOAD.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

The main issue for me is, I think to be 100% FAIR to our world class archers and to the kid or adult who is shooting their first National event, ALL COACHES should coach from the area between the shooter's tents and the spectator area, THIS SHOULD INCLUDE INTERNATIONAL COACHES AS WELL, at least at our National Championships. Internationally coaches must abide by what the WAF has set forth.
There is then no need for extra chairs/space, as Steve Cornell mentioned. The will be no crowding under the tents.
In 2010, when NTC was in Hamilton, I recall seeing an international team here, and they had their ENTIRE CONTINGENCY (archers, parents, coaches) under the tent at the JOAD end of the field, talk about crowded!

Another thing, is this whole thing was sprung upon us 9 DAYS BEFORE NATIONALS. According to the by-laws, if we (membership) want to bring any new business to the annual meeting, we must submit it, something like 45 days ahead of time. If we look at how this new rule sprung upon us happened, it seems to have happened on the spur of the moment, yet we are to cow-taw to this higher being. This is not advertised as an international event, yet it seems that we are being forced to look like it with these new credentialed coaches rules.

Thanks to Teresa, Steve and others who have clarified.

I talked to a few of our archers, who are helping me with my annual archery camp, and they are a little put-off by this in that they already feel, because of their status in the archery community, they get special treatment. This new rule upset them by making it MORE EVIDENT TO ALL who the chosen are. These people are not flashy, they are not arrogant, they are fine young people. If they feel put-off by this, then you know it is wrong to even consider something like this.

All the money, time and energy we already give to USAA, JOAD, to the USOC (I personally donate substantial amounts of money to support our TEAM USA). We have bows all around the world, everyone in our club benefits from our generosity as well. To have this organization tell us we have to give them $20/event/coach is tantamount of a smack in the face. I have entered this tournament for $150. If I succeed I will win a $15-35 plaque. WHAT MAY I ASK HAPPENS WITH THE OTHER $115-135? Target faces, are maybe $10-20/archer, depending on the discipline. The field is probably donated by the LOC, because of all the hotel & restaurant taxes brought into the area. The mats and stands are property of who now? USAA or EASTON?

I'm just getting concerned because if new fees for coaching and competing keep getting waged, you may not have a field to draw from. 

My son shot his qualifying score to be considered for JDT this past weekend, an outstanding 606, 36 arrow 50 meters). I am trying to reconcile myself to fill out that application so he can have the privilege of being observed at EJN (Hamilton). Or do I ask our Steve Cornell to set something up? I want our son to go as far as he can! It will be right in line with how our club operates, turning out the best, with the best. I just don't know...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Honestly, $20 is nothing compared to the total cost of the trip, but that's really not the point. Why another $20? Why not just credential coaches for free and call it part of the (outrageous) $150 registration fee?

Is the organization that hard up for cash that they need to extract another $20 out of those who already volunteer their time to help archers?

It's not about the money (well, it would be if it were $20 for each archer, I guess) but rather the never ending nickel-and-diming of our archers, parents and volunteer coaches.

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I will make one more comment in this thread I started. I have seen most angles of archery from having elite archers come from my program, to spending many hours learning from top coaches like the Piersons and top archers like Darrell. but I also have new kids, some without much talent. and while I am certainly not an elite archer, I am fairly competent and I have been an elite athlete in other sports. 

1) if an organization, in its quest to win Olympic medals and the all mighty USOC dollar in the short run, diminishes grassroots development in the long run, it is only cutting its throat. 

2) It is obvious to me that-in the 15 years I have been highly active in USAA/NAA-that there has been an increasing stratification. This has been fostered by some officials, some coaches, and a few of the athletes which has included comments that those who do not say live at the USOTC and do nothing but shoot archery, should not even be allowed to try, or let alone, make archery teams. 

3) since archery isn't going to get you into Harvard like squash or fencing or crew, and since it won't get you a full ride scholarship to Duke or Stanford or U Va like Basketball or tennis will, telling kids to give up all other activities or high academic standards to pursue archery is going to be a tough sell. But right now, I have kids who had the talent to be very good, if not international shooters, who figured that since they could not "afford" (in terms of academics, other sports or activities) to be on the JDT, its not worth trying to compete against those kids who can. That is not good for USAA in the long run

4) Gary made a good point about the our way or no way when it comes to coaching. I have had the advantage of having top coaches in other sports. "Credentials" in many cases really didn't matter much. I look back at when I was an NSSA first team All-American skeet shooter as to what helped me and the stuff I remember most came from people who had no fancy coaching certificates-they had just been around good skeet shooters for decades and knew what worked. Same with squash and table tennis-sports far more complex than archery. I also am somewhat amused over what involves being an "elite" coach. 

5) I have no problem with USAT selection events or world trials being "difficult". But our national championships is the shoot for the membership. I find it IDIOTIC to mandate a small target for recurve archers at 50M. I watched our current men's state champion shoot this for the first time this weekend. Now this archer is not a world class archer but he was a very very good JOAD archer back in the 90's and he practices 400 or so arrows a week. Yet he missed several times on this small target. My wife, a 50+ bare bow shooter should not be forced to shoot that target either. 3 bare bows on one big 80CM target at 40 or 50 Meters is not going to lead to massive arrow damage. 

6) I am highly opposed to the current EJN format. making all cubs, and all recurve JOAD females shoot the farthest possible distance for an age group. This penalizes technically superior kids in favor of bigger stronger kids who had early growth spurts. I know this is true based on what I have seen when we have used the same format in our state JOAD. My son has won every JOAD indoor state shoot in Ohio for the last five years. Yet he lost the outdoor shoot last year because it was windy and he being 57 inches and 80 pounds at the time was beaten by a 68" tall boy with 50 more pounds of body weight and much faster arrows. A huge advantage when every shot is at 50M. In a FITA, Ian won easily a couple months later. Cadet girls who have reached physical maturity have a massive advantage over those who have not when shooting only 60 Meters.

Since the adults are shooting a FITA why do we force the kids to shoot this boring 144 arrows at the same distance? And why are we in such a hurry to do six arrow ends and force average adult archers to shoot the small target faces at 50 M?

Since the senior compounds are shooting a FITA as well, there was no need to make the JOADS shoot six arrow ends to keep pace with the not being used compound round that has been adopted by FITA. and there was absolutely no reason to demand the one distance for the JOADS either

I can tell you from the perspective of an avid but not elite archer, that my main goal when attending national target events was to try to shoot a personal best at nationals. that is the realistic goal of 95% of the adults who attend nationals. there are maybe 5-6 people who have a realistic chance of winning in the senior recurve or compound divisions. Everyone else is there for something other than medals. and making the course of fire as difficult as possible is only going to turn people away-especially with 150 bucks for basically a single fits.

Finally, if you discourage people who are not yet elite shooters or past their prime competitors you weaken archery. No one goes to their first national tournament and wins at the adult level. an 1100 shooter today might be a 1300 shooter after several nationals but if he is discouraged from entering, it only hurts archery in the USA. same with parents who do not find it worthwhile to attend and take their kids who might -if taken to several nationals-end up being another Brady or Jay or Darrell.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Since the adults are shooting a FITA why do we force the kids to shoot this boring 144 arrows at the same distance? And why are we in such a hurry to do six arrow ends and force average adult archers to shoot the small target faces at 50 M?
> 
> Since the senior compounds are shooting a FITA as well, there was no need to make the JOADS shoot six arrow ends to keep pace with the not being used compound round that has been adopted by FITA. and there was absolutely no reason to demand the one distance for the JOADS either
> 
> ...


Jim, I couldn't agree more.

Look, if the leadership of USArchery/NAA/ whatever it is next week won't listen to people like Jim C or Tom B or any number of veterans of the orgnaization, I have little hope for it's survival. I don't expect the leadership to listen to me. I've been outspoken enough about where I feel the true influence is coming from, that I have been largely been ostracized, and even openly attacked by some of the self-proclaimed "elite" - stooping so low as to even manipulate the opinions of teenage archers to spew their venom for them.

But for the organization to not take the concerns and suggestions of people who are the foundation of the international sport of archery in this country seriously is an real mistake. 

Of course, the self-proclaimed elite will always see *themselves* as the foundation of the sport, so I guess that's why many of these comments seem to fall on deaf ears...

In my view, the power and influence (read - MONEY) in this sport has gradually been consolidated into one small cast of characters over the past 10 years. This centralization of influence is what will kill the organization for the rank and file. And I don't really get the impression that they really care if that were to happen. 

There needs to be a place where the truly elite archers - from EVERY background - can train and continue their progress. But at the same time, the NAA does NOT need to forget that it is a grass-roots, amatuer sports organization that should be responsible to the members first, the elite teams second, and the corporations third.

John


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I'm afraid you may be correct. And I'm also afraid that those with the most influence (both within and from outside the organization) may not really care, as they have other plans for the direction of USArchery. Time will tell if the concerns of the membership are addressed, or ignored. I think the next 2-3 years will potentially make or break USArchery.
> 
> John


So if USAA Archery goes bye bye................what's left? I'm not exactly doing back flips for the NFAA! Time will truly tell.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Easy. Time to start a new member-driven organization and let USArchery serve the USOC and the corporate sponsors.

A house divided cannot stand. As soon as the NAA started jumping to the beat of the corporations, celebrity coaches and looking inward to plan it's course, the membership got short shrift.

Collegiate archery figured this out and started their own organization. Maybe not a perfect solution, but hey, they don't have to answer to USArchery or the USOC anymore. And why should they? I congratulate them for taking matters into their own hands. Many of us have the experience to do the same.

We just have to ask ourselves this question... was that the plan all along? Again, I think for some it just might have been. P.O. the members enough that they leave, and then all we have to deal with are our elite teams and coaches, the USOC and our beloved corporate sponsors. Perfect!


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

I remember a few years ago when my daughter finally reached an international level and she was allowed to have coaching on the line for the first time and what a difference it made for her. I complained many times to USAA that our archers should not experience coaching on the line for the very first time at Youth World Championships. If the international archers are allowed to have coaches on the line (at USA events) then our archers should be allowed that same privilege. Denise told me it was not possible because of exactly what Steve pointed out about the Little League mentality and the number of people that would put out on the line. I understood her point but told her that if our athletes could not have coaches on the line then the visiting international archers should not have them on the line either. I guess this was their solution, but as Dee pointed out this is not something new as they have been doing a while now since they were already doing this when Kiley was still shooting and she has been out for over a year now. 

But one size fits all is not an answer either. The best example I can give is Pan Am Championships 2010. Matt Zumbo is on the line and has a coach yelling at him that he is holding too long. Completely inappropriate and uncalled for. And for Matt Zumbo, he and his dad will tell you that Matt needs no one standing behind on the line (especially if they are going to yell at him). However, Kiley was on the line and had Dee behind her coaching her and thanks to his help she made it to the podium and it was completely appropriate coaching and something she needed. Two different archers, two different styles and two different outcomes. The coach and the archer need to be able to decide before hand what is needed and what is appropriate. As to the $$ that is being charged, I feel for all of you and agree that somewhere the bleeding has to stop. I cannot tell you what fun stuff we have been able to do since Kiley quit shooting (although I still have a ton of Credit Card debt that I am still paying off). 

I will watch for posts on the update as to how this one turns out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good input Barb. Great point about the rule applying to ALL coaches, or none at all. Again, this is America. Don't try to pull that "it doesn't apply to us" crap around here...

This all could have been avoided had every registration form included a simple space for an archer to name their coach, or none at all. Then it would alread be in the database, could have been included in the registration fee (although I still think a fee is pointless and insulting) and credentials could have been available when we arrived for official practice. 



> I cannot tell you what fun stuff we have been able to do since Kiley quit shooting (although I still have a ton of Credit Card debt that I am still paying off).


I can only imagine. So far, being involved in archery as an athlete and a coach has cost me 3 weeks of vacation time, about 20 hours/week and no telling how many thousands of dollars this year. And my daughter is just a bowman recurver! Meanwhile, she's a VERY competitive swimmer and has medaled at swim meets weekly, every season, for the past 4 years, costing us NO vacation time and less than the cost of our trip to just nationals this year... It just doesn't add up for the average family. - for those that still care about the average family -

John


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Good input Barb. Great point about the rule applying to ALL coaches, or none at all. Again, this is America. Don't try to pull that "it doesn't apply to us" crap around here...
> 
> This all could have been avoided had every registration form included a simple space for an archer to name their coach, or none at all. Then it would alread be in the database, could have been included in the registration fee (although I still think a fee is pointless and insulting) and credentials could have been available when we arrived for official practice.
> 
> ...


John, I grew up as a competitive swimmer and while the costs are not the same as archery, swimming is still a very expensive sport. Swim suits are about $100 each and they don't last very long even when you rinse them after every use. Cost of travel is the same for swimming as it is for archery, you still have airfare and rental car and hotel so that does not change. But if you have a kid doing both, it is really painful and I feel for you.

Although at least you can get a college scholarship in swimming. I had everything paid for except books.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Although at least you can get a college scholarship in swimming. I had everything paid for except books.


Indeed, she is talented enough that this is a real consideration. Same is true for her in archery as well, but - as you know - no real incentive for her to pursue archery in the short term. 

Like many parents of talented athletes who shoot archery, I'm going to be faced with the decision of which basket to put our "eggs" in when it comes to her athletic future. Too bad archery's basket has so many holes in it...

At this point, swimming is surely the priority for her - for two reasons. She enjoys it more (gets to do it with many more of her friends and gets to compete as a team) and archery is always something she can do after college. Heck, I've said all along that we need to be poaching female college swimmers for archery!

John


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Like many parents of talented athletes who shoot archery, I'm going to be faced with the decision of which basket to put our "eggs" in when it comes to her athletic future. Too bad archery's basket has so many holes in it...
> 
> John


Since I know you well enough I know you will watch her body and not allow injury. I have had five shoulder operations and lived with chronic pain for years until the last surgery which seemed to have "fixed" it. But just two weeks ago, my new little puppy yanked on the leash when I was not paying attention and my shoulder has hurt every since. Hoping it will just go away and not be an issue. Swim coaches are pushing weights on the young swimmers way too early these days.


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

Ok - I am 29 and have been shooting since I was 11. I have been coaching for 3 years now and have 6 kids going to nationals. I don't want to be "that" guy there. I would never yell at an archer... but what are the guidelines for coaching on the line? Help would be appreciated


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

num1archr said:


> Ok - I am 29 and have been shooting since I was 11. I have been coaching for 3 years now and have 6 kids going to nationals. I don't want to be "that" guy there. I would never yell at an archer... but what are the guidelines for coaching on the line? Help would be appreciated


come see me Chris, I will fill you in.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

There obviously needs to be two separate organizations. 1) USOC Archery, and 2) a national member-oriented organization.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> come see me Chris, I will fill you in.


Seems like it would make a good thread.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Warbow said:


> Seems like it would make a good thread.


I know his program, I know his kids-what works for some doesn't work for others

example-without naming names. one of my kids was in a very important match. One of the other coaches (once again names are not important) was rattling off all sorts of stuff. Kid shot the wrong target-loses the set I tell him he is better than the other kid, has trained harder than the other kid and has more talent. All true. Most importantly I said you are on target 40. He realized it and won. sometimes simple is best. 

Me-20 years old-shooting off for the national title in skeet-6 guys, two in the hall of fame. My college coach had written books on skeet shooting. Saying all sorts of things. I didn't need it. So I went over to my coach when I was on the junior national team who was Indiana's coach. He didn't have any of his kids in the shoot off I looked at him-he said just keep your weight forward. I did. I didn't win but I came in second behind Todd Bender-one of the greatest skeet shooters in history. 

If I had thought of all the stuff my college coach had said I would have been out in the first five minutes instead of going several rounds of doubles.. My college coach was a great coach when I was at our college range practicing my form. Not so good when I was wired up getting ready to shoot in front of 500 people and on the live TV sports cast. 

in other cases, a kid has changed his form in the pressure of competition. than you have to do something different. One of my new shooters-who had not practiced nearly enough in the last 6 weeks, was shooting in his first outdoor tournament. he started missing. why because he was leaning back and his string was smacking his chest and then his arm. confidence isn't the issue when the mechanics have collapsed. so I took him back behind the line and got his stance and weight distribution worked out

he didn't win but we weren't looking for 2-3 arrows an end after that.

some kids have all the tools and need to be told that. sometimes all it takes is saying-you are going to win. sometimes what you have to do is allow the kid to figure out what he needs to do and when they do they will perform well

I think the worst thing you can do is to make a kid too dependent.

In 99 I watched one of our legends shoot against a tough foreigner in the OR. (S)he shot three arrows in the red. The coach said move your sight. (s)he did-and the next three shots were gold. too late though, the other archer was already shooting the gold. Our archer was too dependent on the coach-he did the thinking for the archer. I figured out then and there why that archer never did win an olympic individual medal. Too dependent on a coach

When I had aspirations of being a really good table tennis player, I used to watch films of the legends. One was Dragutin Surbek, one of the greatest heavy topspin players ever. They said he was a robot-if his coach said hit one hundred topspins to his opponent's backhand corner he would. My Korean coach would note how Surbek would be "Programmed" to play certain players. some say being a robot won him victories. some say he was too robotic and allowed his coach to dictate his playing style

athletes who do what their coaches want unquestioning tend to win a lot. I don't think they win much at the highest level though since they cannot adapt to changing conditions quickly enough


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> athletes who do what their coaches want unquestioning tend to win a lot. I don't think they win much at the highest level though since they cannot adapt to changing conditions quickly enough


Thanks


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## num1archr (Feb 26, 2010)

I completely agree Jim. Thank you and I will see you next week. Lol not a single one of the kids has ever been to an event this large. 3 of them will have no issues, but the others... lol.. I'm bringing them so they can hopefully conquer their fears. This used to be my favorite tournament when I was a kid and I hope to share that with the kids in the club.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

num1archr said:


> I completely agree Jim. Thank you and I will see you next week. Lol not a single one of the kids has ever been to an event this large. 3 of them will have no issues, but the others... lol.. I'm bringing them so they can hopefully conquer their fears. This used to be my favorite tournament when I was a kid and I hope to share that with the kids in the club.


good

squid at 14 has already shot over 60 tournaments

EJN all three years as a bowman (we went to the North Region instead last year-our rule is we pick tournaments we all can shoot in if there is a conflict and Yanktown was too far away to drive and not enough kids were entered in his division), two Outdoor nationals, four indoor NAA nationals, 5 NFAA indoor Nationals etc.

I don't really need to do much with him-besides he won't listen to me anyway:wink:

My two dream team kids-they have other coaches at these events. 
My new kids-more about making sure they know where to go and to make sure their gear is all ready to go

My adult archers-one needs confidence, another wants to over analyze everything so the goal is to get a theme-to talk about the forest rather than the trees or in his case-the leaves. The other adults are pretty self sufficient-maybe asking them if they need some more gatorade


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Beastmaster said:


> Tom,
> 
> A few observations while playing devil's advocate here merely for discussion points.
> 
> ...


Beastmaster,

In hindsight this was a 100% accurate post. You were absolutely correct that an archer needs to bring their 'A' game and then some. I would also add that you need to bring a whole host of things outside of their skills as well. Knowing now what I did not know when we signed up, if I had to do it over again, we would take a pass.

Once again, thank you for your knowledge.

George


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