# Do you think splitting up the Traditional section would be positive?



## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I've had Pm's with MAC and he brought up having a Traditional Bow hunting and a Traditional Target Archery sections. Do you think this would help the board?. I want to ask the board first and see what you folks thinks about it and see if the majority believe it will be good for the Traditional section. I'm not promising anything to you guys but I want to make sure I had the backing of most members in this section before I take it to the Administration.


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

i don't see the need myself.
you have the best trad forum going of all the sights now. imho


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## bfisherman11 (Oct 16, 2002)

I don't see the need either.............


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

I see no problem with this. Maybe have a general trad and within that a target and hunting sub forum.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Not needed.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Yes I would ...
Bowhunting is an archery discipline in it's own right, as is Target archery.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I voted yes...only because i believe a "Traditional Target" and a Traditional Hunting" forums might be a good idea...but i guess the best idea was to post a poll and let the tribal voices speak...good on ya DoubleS..and kudos on the fair execution. Thanks, Bill. :cool2:


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Its all good....
Things from both can be used in both.....


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't care. Traditional bowhunting being addressed more often, regardless, would be nice. I don't know why it would be in a separate section. Don't have a problem with it, though.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Hey Bill...You guys don't see the poll above??????. I was wondering why nobody was making a choice. Another member brought it to me.
.


JINKSTER said:


> I voted yes...only because i believe a "Traditional Target" and a Traditional Hunting" forums might be a good idea...but i guess the best idea was to post a poll and let the tribal voices speak...good on ya DoubleS..and kudos on the fair execution. Thanks, Bill. :cool2:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

There's not enough of us as it is, why split us up?


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

Double S said:


> Hey Bill...You guys don't see the poll above??????. I was wondering why nobody was making a choice. Another member brought it to me.
> .


Polls don't show up in tapatalk (not for me at least) as polls, looks like any other thread. Have to read someone's 'I voted' post.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

ps.
My Satellite internet has been shutting down. Good ole Hughesnet technician support in India is sending me out a local tech to fix my System. I've been receiving Pm's, If I don't send one back it's because my interweb is down for the count.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

The root of the assumption is that there is a fundamental difference between the two in regards to form and aiming topics. If we polled here, the majority would show up as hunters. Has in the past. If we polled on form, we would find close similarity if not same in many regards. It' not really who hunts and who doesn't. Some hunters are target form proponents and some are not - no separation can happen if they are in the same forum.

To separate just invites the "our forum" conflicts, whereas many would rightfully fit both. IOW, to prevent conflict of someone commenting in the wrong forum, we would have to define the differences in form first, as that is the real issue at hand for separation.


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## AngelDeVille (May 9, 2012)

No way, there is too much information that pertains to both.

I shoot thousands of arrows at targets per year and less than 5 at game.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

As most of us do both,
I suggest you keep 'em together !!!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I don't think it'll change anything for the better. There are other forums where the two exist in a complimentary manner, the difference is the quality of the posters. They don't just ban for a day or two.
This forum's main plus is that it attracts many curious compound shooters, so its a decent opportunity to set them towards success before they make a poor equipment or technique choice.

-Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Double S said:


> Hey Bill...You guys don't see the poll above??????. I was wondering why nobody was making a choice. Another member brought it to me.
> .


Yeah...i voted and i think we all see it and it must be working fine cause as usual?..i'm on the underdog end of things! :laugh:

Thaks Simon!


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Double S said:


> I've had Pm's with MAC and he brought up having a Traditional Bow hunting and a Traditional Target Archery sections. Do you think this would help the board?. I want to ask the board first and see what you folks thinks about it and see if the majority believe it will be good for the Traditional section. I'm not promising anything to you guys but I want to make sure I had the backing of most members in this section before I take it to the Administration.


Backing a majority is not the best thing you can do Double S...regardless the outcome...imagine me saying that...Here's why..

As I said to you both are totally separate...but yet each give something into it..

Having to defend a particular hunting style as opposed to some of the current beliefs regarding other styles gets real old real quick. Bow hunting as opposed to the way current IBO shoots or any other competition that is geared towards hunting are scored does not promote ethical shots taken on any animal..regardless as some claim..The reason they do this is to get as many new shooters into the sport of target shooting as possible..to help make a profit or defray the cost of holding the event. Many contend...that by placing the targets in a easier position..and allowing non vital hits..allows more shooters to compete or participate...and that aspect is certainly true...but...it does not promote ethical shots...it only reinforces that this is acceptable in the feild to many who do participate by rewarding wounding shots to be given points...so a score card can be turned in...If the IBO was concerned about ethical shooting and actually wanting to teach this...it would realize it's error...and adopt a more stringent approach to actually teaching was is and isn't acceptable in hunting...by penalizing the shooter for even taken these shots..or shooting out of range...The better shooters would not have a problem making many of these harder to achieve higher scores..because they put more emphasis on shot placement to garner a higher score in hopes of winning...This is not taken into the feild by those who don't know better..or should not be shooting at live animals..

Target archery is target archery...and being the best target archer in the world is not going to guarantee you will be a good bow hunter...There are vast difference to contend with...How can someone say it's ok to teach shooting at a deer target at one of these events where it's ears/eyes/head is facing you...and give you a plus score for missing...We have to take ownership of our misses in light of being under the microscope as hunters..as a old freind said recently here...We can't take back a arrow that is loosed...

I vote Yes...PLEASE...let us who choose not to compete..be able to discuss hunting with those that are hunters first...We may be the minority here...but we are here...and have a right to talk traditional hunting without having to discuss target shooting and all of what goes into it.

Mac


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Simon -

This is a fairly low traffic forum compared to some of the others on AT and since a lot of people here have interests in both aspects, I can't see it helping. (Not even sure the "How to Shoot" sub forum really helps anything, since topics cross so frequently.)

Like Sanford said, splitting the forum into target and hunting might make the presumed difference more prominent. There's already a fair amount of cross over between this and the FITA board. Let's not make it more divided because of a few who don't get it. 

So, I'd vote no. 

Viper1 out.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> I don't think it'll change anything for the better. There are other forums where the two exist in a complimentary manner, the difference is the quality of the posters. They don't just ban for a day or two.
> This forum's main plus is that it attracts many curious compound shooters, *so its a decent opportunity to set them towards success before they make a poor* equipment or *technique choice.*
> 
> -Grant


Grant...ya know i love ya bro but...there's nothing "poor" about a new trad archer with a desire to hunt learning sound shooting skills from old dogs who are good at it without getting haranged by the 30# target bow crowd..and visa-versa...jmho. Bill. :cool2:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Grant...ya know i love ya bro but...there's nothing "poor" about a new trad archer with a desire to hunt learning sound shooting skills from old dogs who are good at it without getting haranged by the 30# target bow crowd..and visa-versa...jmho. Bill. :cool2:


Jinks, there is a very strong interdependence between the two, hunting and proper target work. This bears out in the older texts on bowhunting. Lighter bows and target work are mentioned in the program. The divisive mentality is actually fairly new, historically. Old dogs didn't save Old England from invasion. Formal target practice did, at times, by law.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

So if they were split, what would keep folk from posting on both ???

And if so, what then would be the point of splitting ????

I think if someone did only post/read one of them, it would be their loss.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I voted a definite "yes" because I know for a fact that many of the new or comeback shooters/members that just want to bowhunt and do not want to pursue any level of competition feel very intimidated by all the tech-talk and are completely lost within the first few posts that contain information and advice yet beyond their comprehension....or information and stuff they will never use. 

Additionally, I truly believe that many of the new shooters that wish to take up bowhunting are grossly misled into believing that they must obtain a level of shooting proficiency equal to that of Howard Hill...or the level of most of the experienced shooters that post here, before they take to the woods. It was never the case and never will be the case that all bowhunters are cut-above shooters. Hell, even bowhunters who win in competition make bad shots, or by no fault of their's, get bad hits.

Yewselfbow hit the nail squarely on the head when he said: 



> Yes I would ...Bowhunting is an archery discipline in it's own right, as is Target archery.


I am not being demeaning or adversarial when I say; when I want to talk bowhunting I don't want to hear about target and 3-D related matters. If I wish to, I'll go to the proper forum.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I voted to NOT split them up.

I think new archers can learn something from BOTH.

What I would like to see is more respect given to those with differing opinions...or between those that are more target archery based and those that are more bowhunting based.

Saying this form or technique is the best, most proper, good, etc. can generally cause strife between opposing opinions.

I feel an experienced archer should explain the advantages and disadvantages to specific techniques and let it be known that CONSISTENTCY is what we seek...and NOT necessarily trying to look a specific way.

We don't all share the exact same goals nor do we all want or have to shoot under the same circumstances...so there will be differences with the techniques being used by different archers who share different goals.

I would also LOOOOVE to see people who turn a simple disagreement into a personal battle as if they just got victimized by a personal attack and than cry foul like they're some kind of martyr to get some kind of warning to keep them from doing that! It get's OLD and I know I may be dreaming about some kind of recourse being put in place.

There's no reason why 2 adults can't have a disagreement without belittling each other.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I dunno - since Mac is lumping the IBO (International *Bowhunting* Organization) in with target shooters - I think it would be wrong. Some of the best and most accurate bowhunters are also members of the IBO and shoot in IBO competitions. For most, 3D target competition is about becoming a more accurate shot when hunting. 3D is practice for hunting.

To my knowledge there are only a very small handful of guys in this forum who are not bowhunters and are strictly target shooters - the vast majority are both.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I vote, yes, ya can always post on both section if ya like, maybe it would help with some of the war of words alittle, think it would be worth a try, and see what happens.
I don't see it hurting anything, & could turn out to be a positive in the long run.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Let's not make it more divided because of a few who don't get it.


Viper: Please clearly explain that comment. What type of shooter fits the classification of the "few," and what is it that they do not get?


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

Keep it the way it is.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

LINK:  Previous archery interest poll


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I think thats it's a bit redundant and , whilst I see why the idea may appeal , it is merely appeasing a the continued "instinctive/IBO,target stance/ Ashby/ Asbell/ EFOC/ stalking Sharp " warriors who turn every thread into their battleground ... Much better , I believe for people to enjoy the forum , share information , stories and ask questions ... and not turn everything into a pissing match .
Archery is archery ...
ps ,,, I had never heard of 'trad' target archery until recently ......


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

I voted no, makes no sense.


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

Split it up so we hunters dont have to be lectured by the knowit alls.. it gets real tiring having target shooters tell us how we dont know what we are doing.. even though some of us have been doing it very well longer than they've been alive


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

> ...being the best target archer in the world is not going to guarantee you will be a good bow hunter


It probably helps, though.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> Let's not make it more divided because of a few who don't get it.


A perfect example of a comment that causes problems, IMO!!!

Ray :shade:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Look; If'n between sets ya caint drop your drawers at the line and take a crap and wipe your butt with dried leaves, we don't have much in common to talk about. :hand:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> Look; If'n between sets ya caint drop your drawers at the line and take a crap and wipe your butt with dried leaves, we don't have much in common to talk about. :hand:


LOL....I hope that is something I NEVER see...but if I do 

Ray :shade:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> LOL....I hope that is something I NEVER see...but if I do


 :wink:


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

It's always nice to know some will always freshing up the bait pile


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

OK, folks. Let's be honest here. How many of you that voted "yes" and also complain of too much proper target form talk have used Olympic shooters as reference to back your position on debate. Before you answer, advised, you are already on record


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

Sanford said:


> OK, folks. Let's be honest here. How many of you that voted "yes" and also complain of too much proper target form talk have used Olympic shooters as reference to back your position on debate. Before you answer, advised, you are already on record


not me not ever


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> I voted a definite "yes" because I know for a fact that many of the new or comeback shooters/members that just want to bowhunt and do not want to pursue any level of competition feel very intimidated by all the tech-talk and are completely lost within the first few posts that contain information and advice yet beyond their comprehension....or information and stuff they will never use.
> 
> Additionally, I truly believe that many of the new shooters that wish to take up bowhunting are grossly misled into believing that they must obtain a level of shooting proficiency equal to that of Howard Hill...or the level of most of the experienced shooters that post here, before they take to the woods. It was never the case and never will be the case that all bowhunters are cut-above shooters. Hell, even bowhunters who win in competition make bad shots, or by no fault of their's, get bad hits.
> 
> ...


IThis is a trad forum. If you want to talk about bowhunting, then go to the bowhunting forum as you just stated. I feel that most of the trad shooters on here could learn much from the current posters, and if they improve their accuracy then I believe they will be more competent hunters. How many times have I heard the old fallback" I can't hit a target, but put hair on it and I never miss". I call B.S. on that. There isn't a nontarget shooting hunter out there who couldn't benefit from a little more aiming knowledge.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Agree 100% - even in a thread trying to end this stuff - digs have to be thrown in.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> A perfect example of a comment that causes problems, IMO!!!
> 
> Ray :shade:


Agree 100% - even in a thread trying to end this stuff - a dig has to be thown in


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, there is a very strong interdependence between the two, hunting and proper target work. This bears out in the older texts on bowhunting. Lighter bows and target work are mentioned in the program. The divisive mentality is actually fairly new, historically. Old dogs didn't save Old England from invasion. Formal target practice did, at times, by law.


Well?...fortunately?...we're not out to save old england here and i strongly disagree that there's a strong interdependence between the two...matter fact?...it can be highly counterproductive...ya know...i had folks telling me how different shooting 3D's would be as compared to pounding them into my bag target in the backyard...well?..there is a vast difference...but if you think that difference is vast try taking a new archer who's honed his 3D skills to championship levels and take him hunting...then watch him wound his first deer...cause he wasn't standing bolt upright..on a cleared shooting lane...so he had to lean over...crouch down..thread the needle between canopies and to top it all off?...the animal did something all those foam ones never did before...it moved.

Or?..under the keen advice of target based archers?..he bought a minimum legal hunting weight bow...40#s at 28"s..except he only draws 26"s..and he went with ultralight arrows (cause the fly flatter out of his legal minimum weight bow) and also gleened that tuning broadheads was much easier if he went with mechanicals...and it bounced off a shoulder bone..but he can hold form all day long! :laugh:

Truth of the matter is...there's still a few old dogs out here that know while everyone doesn't have the gifted hand-eye skills (or the dedication and practice to be able to compensate for any lack of such?)..to be able to snap shoot hunting weight bows with hunting weight arrows with an acceptable level of practical and ethical hunting accuracy?..that there are many who can...but they get led by a nose ring that "That's All Wrong"..or that it's just an excuse to shoot sloppy...while the real deal is you don't need to be able to keep'em all in an inch sized X-ring at 20yds to humanly harvest large game...or to teach them things like..if ya wanna know what size the kill zone is on any given animal?...look at the size of their head..but they're being taught that they need to hunt with a weak enough bow that they can hold target level form to hunt?..what are they hunting?...chipmunks? :laugh: Well at least their bow would be able to cleanly harvest a chipmunk! :laugh:

see wud i mean vern?...there are some very real world differences where old school rules when it comes to traditional hunting...from the guys who grew up with Papa Bear as their Idol...who's this new generation have?..Uncle Ted?...last i heard he was apologizing for shooting two bears with one tag cause he wounded the first and just figured..."That didn't count"?

Meanwhile?...i know for a fact that there are many new archers that do have the eye/hand skills to snap'em off just like Fred..yet they'll never get to discover or aknowledge those skills cause they're to busy being coached that they need to hunt with lightweight bows they can hold and shoot with oly like form and hold at anchor while shooting ultralight arrows with 100gr mechanical broadheads...and then never get to discover that all this while?..they were the worlds best snap-shooter cause they were told that's all wrong and there's only one way to shoot...with any level of repeatable accuracy..which Fred proved decades ago was utter BS....the man was confident enough to stand in front of grizzly bears four times his size with stick and string...and who's to say ya might not run into one while hunting white-tail...and if ya did?..would ya wanna do it with a hunting weight bow and some seriously honed snap-shooting skills or?..a 40#er with ultralight arrows doning 100gr mechanical broadheads?...IT'S THE WOODS MAN!...anything can be out there! :laugh:

so?..obviously?...there's two schools of thought running here...doncha think it would be nice if they each had their own campus?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)




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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

as for what Jinx just said ? 

I have no idea what you are talking about ... Back in Fred's day ... many many people where field shooters first and foremost because there were few deer and even less seasons ... and i think you'll find that most shot sub 50# bows ... both in the field and and on the range .. and when they shot target , just like ol' Fred did when he had a site on his wooden stickbow






.

.. as for Fred being the epitome of all things 'trad' , as it seems to be thrown in our faces constantly ... remember the "POD" ? ...
and before everyone's knickers get twisted .. I am a huge fan of Fred ... just pointing out that 'trad' is an ideal rather than any cut and dried rigid philosophy 

There is no "traditional hunting" IMHO ... thats just rewriting history , way too many puppies sitting up trees , in retails purchased stands , clad in commercial store camo for that argument to hold water ... there is however traditional archery that covers an enourmous arena of single string pursuits ... and for that I'll be ever grateful 

and this is coming from a floppy hat , wood arrow shooting longbow kinda fella 

archery is just archery .. and we can twist and turn its meanings and definitions as much as we want ... but there are way way to many examples of "trad" [ geez I hate how that word as become a beacon of intolerance and misinformation] ... of good archers , using all kinds of different equipment and 'styles' excelling at both on the tourney field and whilst hunting !


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, discussing whats for dinner.
I think we should keep the traditional from just the way it is, (read NOT dedicated to any particular style, discipline,aiming technique, ect. Just one big happy family) .
With that being said.....a trad bow-hunting sub form is a good idea.
It's all in the way the question was asked. If the poll was just a question about creating a sub form, so the hunters could have another campfire to sit around , I feel the response would have been very positive . Asking to split the form feels like we are being asked to chose between friends.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

benofthehood said:


> as for what Jinx just said ?
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about ... Back in Fred's day ... many many people where field shooters first and foremost because there were few deer and even less seasons ... and i think you'll find that most shot sub 50# bows ... both in the field and and on the range .. and when they shot target , just like ol' Fred did when he had a site on his static recurve ... as for Fred being the epitome of all things 'trad' , as it seems to be thrown in our faces constantly ... remember the "POD" ? ...
> and before everyone's knickers get twisted .. I am a huge fan of Fred ...
> ...


Fred bear, ted nugent, chuck adams, we all have skeletons in the closet. I think it is pathetic for someone like Jinks to belittle every target shooter around because of his own insecurities.And as I said earlier, if you want to only talk bowhunting then , by all means , go to the bowhunting forum. This forum is a good exchange of information and ideas. Keep it as it is.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have never shot competitively 

Only have been a hunter and stump shooter 

I have only shot 4 3D shoots 

I have spent a lifetime only shooting from expierence and old books so I welcome everything I can read and learn from. 

I have learned a lot from the target shooters over the internet and watching videos of Olympic shooters 


Besides people will search out conflict no matter where they have to look


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

gnome said:


> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, discussing whats for dinner.
> I think we should keep the traditional from just the way it is, (read NOT dedicated to any particular style, discipline,aiming technique, ect. Just one big happy family) .
> With that being said.....a trad bow-hunting sub form is a good idea.
> It's all in the way the question was asked. If the poll was just a question about creating a sub form, so the hunters could have another campfire to sit around , I feel the response would have been very positive . Asking to split the form feels like we are being asked to chose between friends.


That is the point...and many don't want to see any change...

Sharing campfires with all different types of shooters from x-bows to what have you..is ok...and can learn new things there...but...it is not really the same as being able to kick back and discuss what we do amongst those who shoot what we do.....As much as I love the other types of bows..and shoot the other types of bows..I don't go take it to a Chevy dealer to just talk and discuss my Mustang...but I got 2 great dealerships where I know I can...and both of them are of the Ford variety..:wink:

Mac


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Fred bear, ted nugent, chuck adams, we all have skeletons in the closet. I think it is pathetic for someone like Jinks to belittle every target shooter around because of his own insecurities.And as I said earlier, if you want to only talk bowhunting then , by all means , go to the bowhunting forum. This forum is a good exchange of information and ideas. Keep it as it is.


Now how is doing the belittling???? and the bowhunting form is overwhelmingly compound shooters. They are the reason we came to THIS form.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Well. I think the idea of two forums is turning occasional pot shots into full civil war.

Maybe Scout4 and Curve1 had the right idea .... :sad:


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

WindWalker said:


> Look; If'n between sets ya caint drop your drawers at the line and take a crap and wipe your butt with dried leaves, we don't have much in common to talk about. :hand:


LOL. Got a good chuckle from that one.........probably because I know exactly what he's talking about! Listen..... I'm no professional target shooter, but I practice on various targets in order to gain good shooting skills. My primary goal is hunting... and should I become extremely proficient, perhaps a future in traditional archery competition in the future. I vote NO, because, by coming here I have gained alot of knowledge from both the Target and Hunter archers. We could use a bit more civility around here, but I don't believe splitting the section is going to cure that. Besides, alot of the information crosses over between both groups, and it would be cumbersome to go between both sections. For example, both a target and hunter archer may have a question about arrows shooting to the left.... why should that stuff be posted in 2 different areas?? Everyone benefits from that type of info.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Sanford said:


> OK, folks. Let's be honest here. How many of you that voted "yes" and also complain of too much proper target form talk have used Olympic shooters as reference to back your position on debate. Before you answer, advised, you are already on record



Don't know fer sure.....but I voted yes, & don't think I have.
But then again I'am kind'a new to this here forum thing, but not to bow hunting. I have no problem with the "Olympic shooting" I might even read a book on it some day & who knows I might try shooting at those kind of targets, but not now, but, I'll never rule anything out.
But I voted yes, because I like the idea of spliting it up, my practice is mostly about getting a shot off as fast as I can (never know when the game will move), with a increase heart rate (ya after all these years, my heart/resp rate goes up some while deer hunting), into a target about the size of a bottom of a bottle, from a standing, seated, leaning, ducking, etc. postions, within my hunting ranges.
I guess, what would it hurt to split it up, it's not like ya can't read/post on both.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

I voted no..here is why..( I agree with Sharps comment about IBO with emphasis on bowhunting) Also, the biomechanics of shooting paper, or an animal are the same. In my world all targets get the *same* priority. 3D or live animals, and frankly I get wore out with all the "bowhunter" excuses. Many here who claim this exact position do not take the initiative to improve...well shame on you, but don't throw those that do wish to learn and constantly improve under the bus. Archery is what it is, it's what bonds us together. Many of us would have never met otherwise. Some people don't like change, that's fine but creating an "us and them" atmosphere just fosters more resentment. 

Hunting is nothing more than waiting for a shot...in 3D You don't have to wait. For any of you that assume people who shoot well at 3D competitions can't hunt..I've got news for you..you are completely wrong. In fact, if you can't hit a stationary 3D target, I'm sure your hunting accuracy is no different. Some of us take more initiative to improve than others.
You are also assuming the guys you see with long and extra long hold times don't practice awkward position shooting, wrong assumption again. As far as lightweight bows go...well here is a sad truth, with today's materials and designs you can get the same performance out of much lighter bow than ever before. 

The state laws have changed to reflect this, and everyone knows the government is not known for expediting anything but the back taxes you owe. That's ethical in my eyes, so frankly, I get tired of hearing hunting weight this and hunting weight that. Girly weight this and sissy weight that. The facts are there if you know where to find them. Besides, with a proper legal hunting weight bow you can wait for a perfect shot at full draw... gasp! who'd of thunk it? without hitting the shoulder bone. But heck with that nonsense! I'll draw my 60# to 26, snap shoot it because I can't hold it, and rename snap shooting as a style all its own...you know..re-brand it as a "be prepared for anything hunting style". Never mind the target panic, it will take care of itself.. just shoot quicker. 

Does my rant mean we can't be friends?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep, or delete it altogether.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

No.

Being a good/great shot will never hurt a hunter.
Being a poor one will.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

For those who only want to discuss bowhunting try this. Step 1 go to the main AT forum page. Step 2 scroll all the way down to the 2nd Forum catagory which is called Bowhunting. Step 3 click on that forum and find your new home. Step 4. Commence posting. 
Hope you will be happy there, seems like a fine place. Best of all it already exists, no need to split up anything. Or do ya'all have a problem with the bowhunting forum also?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Mo0se said:


> I voted no..here is why..( I agree with Sharps comment about IBO with emphasis on bowhunting) Also, the biomechanics of shooting paper, or an animal are the same. In my world all targets get the *same* priority. 3D or live animals, and frankly I get wore out with all the "bowhunter" excuses. Many here who claim this exact position do not take the initiative to improve...well shame on you, but don't throw those that do wish to learn and constantly improve under the bus. Archery is what it is, it's what bonds us together. Many of us would have never met otherwise. Some people don't like change, that's fine but creating an "us and them" atmosphere just fosters more resentment.
> 
> Hunting is nothing more than waiting for a shot...in 3D You don't have to wait. For any of you that assume people who shoot well at 3D competitions can't hunt..I've got news for you..you are completely wrong. In fact, if you can't hit a stationary 3D target, I'm sure your hunting accuracy is no different. Some of us take more initiative to improve than others.
> You are also assuming the guys you see with long and extra long hold times don't practice awkward position shooting, wrong assumption again. As far as lightweight bows go...well here is a sad truth, with today's materials and designs you can get the same performance out of much lighter bow than ever before.
> ...


Here, Here!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

well that went better than expected. :laugh:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

martha j said:


> i don't see the need myself.
> you have the best trad forum going of all the sights now. imho[/QUO
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I think most of us hunt and most of us shoot targets as much as we can. Looks like a perfect mix to me as is.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I think it would be positive to have a target archery trad forum if there were enough people who are just target archers here, but I don't think there are. A number of folks in this forum use to post at the Stickbow Target Archery Forum. It was a good forum, but it never really took off. I think a target archery forum here might suffer the same fate. So it is probably more realistic to keep a single forum. And I don't think separating the forums would actually stop arguments. I think all the trad forums suffer from arguments to one degree or another, but I think the modding here has been pretty good since Double S took over. It is my favorite of the trad forums. :embara:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

The main problem on this forum isn't subject matter, but I suspect you may already know that.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I said no because I feel some already have a 'them and us' attutude and we just need to get along better and not be confirming/encouraging a devide.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I'd be OK with two sub forums underneath a "Traditional Archery" forum. I'm very passionate about both hunting and 3D and would happily switch between the two.

But creating two forums would not solve the interpersonal concerns within this group :wink:. (too many strong type A personalities)


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I've voted yes as well.. but my reasoning is that target archery is really (from what I see of it anyways) a different breed of archery.

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> I said no because I feel some already have a 'them and us' attutude and we just need to get along better and not be confirming/encouraging a devide.


 Well when it comes to 3D, I don't actually look at as "target" per se... but then the first rescue dog I brought home wasn't just chubby... as I found out the next morning... either :grin:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I voted "yes" cause it would make perusing the threads easier and you could always go to the other part of Trad........


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I said no because I feel some already have a 'them and us' attutude and we just need to get along better and not be confirming/encouraging a devide.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


But it might give some of us the oppurtunity to dodge the arguments! but what do I know, I'm just a newbie!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> But it might give some of us the oppurtunity to dodge the arguments! but what do I know, I'm just a newbie!


I can understand where you're coming from...but the thing I don't understand is that we as readers are in control of whether we read an arguement or skip over it. Nobody's forcing us to read it.

I would just like people to be more respectful when they respond to a disagreement...and to quit the crying when someone does disagree.

Ray :shade:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Samuel Clemens

"As concerns tobacco, there are many superstitions. And the
chiefest is this--that there is a STANDARD governing the matter,
whereas there is nothing of the kind. Each man's own preference
is the only standard for him, the only one which he can accept,
the only one which can command him. A congress of all the
tobacco-lovers in the world could not elect a standard which
would be binding upon you or me, or would even much influence us.

The next superstition is that a man has a standard of his own.
He hasn't. He thinks he has, but he hasn't. He thinks he can
tell what he regards as a good cigar from what he regards as a
bad one--but he can't. He goes by the brand, yet imagines he goes
by the flavor. One may palm off the worst counterfeit upon him;
if it bears his brand he will smoke it contentedly and never suspect.

Children of twenty-five, who have seven years experience,
try to tell me what is a good cigar and what isn't.
Me, who never learned to smoke, but always smoked;
me, who came into the world asking for a light.

No one can tell me what is a good cigar--for me. I am the
only judge. People who claim to know say that I smoke the worst
cigars in the world. They bring their own cigars when they come
to my house. They betray an unmanly terror when I offer them
a cigar; they tell lies and hurry away to meet engagements
which they have not made when they are threatened with the
hospitalities of my box. Now then, observe what superstition,
assisted by a man's reputation, can do. 

I was to have twelve personal friends to supper one night. One of them 
was as notorious for costly and elegant cigars as I was for cheap and
devilish ones. I called at his house and when no one was looking
borrowed a double handful of his very choicest; cigars which cost
him forty cents apiece and bore red-and-gold labels in sign of
their nobility. I removed the labels and put the cigars into a
box with my favorite brand on it--a brand which those people all
knew, and which cowed them as men are cowed by an epidemic. 

They took these cigars when offered at the end of the supper, and lit
them and sternly struggled with them--in dreary silence, for
hilarity died when the fell brand came into view and started
around--but their fortitude held for a short time only; then they
made excuses and filed out, treading on one another's heels with
indecent eagerness; and in the morning when I went out to observe
results the cigars lay all between the front door and the gate.
All except one--that one lay in the plate of the man from whom I
had cabbaged the lot. One or two whiffs was all he could stand.
He told me afterward that some day I would get shot for giving
people that kind of cigars to smoke."


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## Tacoma (Jul 13, 2005)

no. There is nothing wrong with the format of this forum. The problem is people. If you took three or four random people who knew nothing about archery and asked them to read this forum for a few days they would come up with very nearly identical lists of a few people who are negative to the point of detracting from the forum. I'll bet a dollar the majority of those people have been warned already. Several should have been permanently banned a long time ago.

This is not a public street corner, it is a business plain and simple. It is just like a nieghborhood bar, if the owner has some common sense he bans the trouble makers before the good people stop coming in.

I don't have any idea what being a moderator involves, and maybe it's not an easy job, but I'll bet he already knows the top three or four posters that could be eliminated and vastly improve the situation here.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Tacoma said:


> no. There is nothing wrong with the format of this forum. The problem is people. If you took three or four random people who knew nothing about archery and asked them to read this forum for a few days they would come up with very nearly identical lists of a few people who are negative to the point of detracting from the forum. I'll bet a dollar the majority of those people have been warned already. Several should have been permanently banned a long time ago.
> 
> This is not a public street corner, it is a business plain and simple. It is just like a nieghborhood bar, if the owner has some common sense he bans the trouble makers before the good people stop coming in.
> 
> I don't have any idea what being a moderator involves, and maybe it's not an easy job, but I'll bet he already knows the top three or four posters that could be eliminated and vastly improve the situation here.


Well that pretty much lays it out in black and white - LOL

Matt


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I can understand where you're coming from...but the thing I don't understand is that we as readers are in control of whether we read an arguement or skip over it. Nobody's forcing us to read it.
> 
> I would just like people to be more respectful when they respond to a disagreement...and to quit the crying when someone does disagree.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Yeah, and I think you are a good example of someone who stands up for their thinking without getting snippy.

We all get to choose *how* we argue, and whether to add those over the top bits that don't have anything to do with our actual argument but are more for scoring imaginary points--and, yes, it is *me*, someone who likes to argue, saying this. I feel I'm reasonably qualified to talk about the issue. Whether we argue nicely or not has to do with the culture of the board. And that is up to the difficult task of the mods, who, in a perfect world, set the example in tone with their own posts, and by nudging those who stray off the path back onto it, and weeding out posts and posters who refuse to do so. It isn't a hunters vs. target shooters thing.

We've had some great mods, we've had a {self censored comments omitted}, and now we have a good mod working hard to keep the forum a nice place. It is tough and somewhat thankless task--much of which happens behind the scenes. That he's asking us our opinion is one sign hes working with us on this. And yes, I'm sucking up to the mod, but only because I've dealt with him in the past and found him to be well meaning, and not one to let the board fall into the favoritism and cronyism found on some of the other trad forums. I want to emphasize my strong support for fair modding. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind it if the place was a tad more civil, even if that applies to me, too.


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## beemer1234 (Dec 2, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I voted to NOT split them up.
> 
> I think new archers can learn something from BOTH.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

I don't believe two forums would make any difference, Pixie dust and aiming techniques would fly from one to the other.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I threw the question out there for people to chew on and digest. The comments are sure interesting for sure. I'm still having interweb issue with hughesnet Satellite. My modem keeps turning off and on. It's a sure pain in the rear. I do have some other mods doing drive bye's. It's nice to see some levity between one another without people getting snippy at each other. :thumbs_up


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Yeah, and I think you are a good example of someone who stands up for their thinking without getting snippy.


Warbow,

I'm glad you recognize that...because even though I try to be very respectful in disagreements...sometimes some people rub me the wrong way...and when they start dishing out the snippy, belittling and heavy scarcastic comments without any accountability...I tend to try and turn it back on them.

I'm really trying not to do that anymore since Simon (our mod) has basically told me he rather me point those posts out than for me to drop down to their level....which I agree with him. It's better to nip it in the butt and be a tattletail than to cause a bigger scene.

So thanks...I'm trying...because I don't want to be a problem. I much rather be the solution.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

:jeez:


BLACK WOLF said:


> Warbow,
> 
> I'm glad you recognize that...because even though I try to be very respectful in disagreements...sometimes some people rub me the wrong way...and when they start dishing out the snippy, belittling and heavy scarcastic comments without any accountability...I tend to try and turn it back on them.
> 
> ...





:mg: Say WHAT? :crybaby2: That kind of thing can work both ways and all you end up with is an extremely busy moderator trying to keep up with all the whiner PMs. Wank,wank,"Simon he called me a wiseguy just because I'm so smart. Spank im Simon,spank im good."
No disrespect meant to the moderator there,just making a point that some may need to grow up. If ya can't stand the heat then don't light the fires.
No need for big changes in my opinion.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I would just like people to be more respectful when they respond to a disagreement...and to quit the crying when someone does disagree.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Yup. We're all big kids. We can act like them. Or, at least like well-behaved infants


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## dcwhite55044 (Nov 6, 2003)

Why not....you are not taking anything away....just organizing based on interest. FirearmsTalk does similar. Ask a bunch of people and you will get a bunch of answers. Apologize later.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> :mg: Say WHAT? :crybaby2:


Who's crying?

Believe me...I MUCH rather deal with some of these issues face to face or on my own. I've NEVER needed anyone to fight my battles...but out of respect for Simon and some the other members of this forum...I'm choosing to try and keep the peace rather than cause more trouble by retaliating.

Ray :shade:


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

dcwhite55044 said:


> Why not....you are not taking anything away....just organizing based on interest. FirearmsTalk does similar.


So, are muzzle-loading hunters in a different section than muzzle-loading target shooters ???

(And yes, there are those muzzleloaders who mainly hunt, those who mainly paper shoot at NMLRA or local club contests, and those who do both - sound familiar ??? )


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Didn't read any other responses. I feel that it may be the wrong move. I don't know that there's so many people here that we would productively make two groups. I suspect that it would be a destructive change. I'm not a hunter, but I like many of the hunting threads. I'm not a competitive archer, but I like a lot of the info given by the accomplished competition archers here on the forum. My sense is that there might be some method of getting everyone to play nice that doesn't include a divorce and custody hearings (metaphorically speaking).


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I believe that the term "splitting" is not appropriate. There is nothing out of the ordinary for a trad site to have a separate (centralized) forum in which discussions are intended be specifically about hunting. AT has such but it is overwhelmingly used by wheelers.


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## LAMADMAN (Aug 17, 2006)

First off let me say that I voted no to splitting the forum. I have not posted much in here but get on and read about four days a week. You would sware that half of you are freaking lawyers the way yall argue and debate. 

Im in my second year of trad shooting and came here to learn stuff, which I have, from a number of you, even the ones who are never wrong and act like *****es. Half the time Im scared to ask a question so as not to start you girls swinging your pom poms at each other. Grow the hell up and act like the world class archers that yall are supossed to represent. Every day I log in there is a different fight about something. Remember, theres more than one way to shoot a freaking bow!!!

Sorry mods but somebody got to say it, and if I hurt anyones feelings, you must be guilty.. End of rant. P.S.( I like all you guys, but dam)


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## tichound (Mar 3, 2008)

I am going to vote NO, there is hardly more than 12, or fewer new threads a day started now.
If you split it up, we will be looking at a ghost town.
I think most people weed out the threads that dont interest them anyhow.


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## c-lo (Jan 8, 2012)

I voted no, as I learn from both topics and don't mind the mix.


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

I voted NO. As a newbie to traditional, I have learned a lot from the target guys and the hunters. Keep them together


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## muley40 (Jun 10, 2005)

My personal opinion would be a sub forum for trad hunting, just look at all the forums that the wheel shooters have on this website!


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## Chris Segina (May 2, 2012)

My vote is to keep us together I have learned alot from both. Two months ago I had never heard of a 300 round now I alternate between fixed distance paper targets and shooting my 3d's from random distances and angles and am shooting better than I ever have. I don't practice olympic distances because my primary focus is deer hunting but that doesn't mean I can't pick up something really useful from someone who does. There is a ton of great information here how I choose to apply that information to my own goals is up to me nobody can do that for you. If you ask for someone's opinion you are going to get that someone's opinion what you choose to do with that is up to you. 

For what it's worth thats how I see it,

chris


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I voted NO.

Both involve the intention to put an object where it needs to go. More similarity than disparity.

If someone doesn't get exposed to the more technical aspects of archery they're going to be limited than otherwise.

It's up to them to make a choice once given the chance. If they want to learn, they need the exposure to make them aware.

If they don't need, or want, to know then they can ignore that post/thread.

The problems of this forum are not due to a split between target and forum. It's a lack of tolerance and respect.

IMO, this is what this forum needs. I have never participated in a forum that more badly needed it.... sheltered, perhaps.

Good to see it now being shaken.


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## joebobf (Apr 9, 2012)

No, don't want to be spanked for posting in the wrong forum.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well gentlfolk?..i hafta admit...even though i voted "yes"?..some very compelling arguments...whoops...scratch that..."opposing viewpoints"..LOL!...have been made here...the one that concerns me most?...would be the reduction in participation that spliting us up may cause...i'm an addict...and i'm as addicted to this forum as i am to shooting my tradbows...i'm also a lonely old guy who comes to forums such as this for the friendship and comaraderi..and i guess that's why that when i see a slow down in participation?..i try my best to liven things up even if it means making yet another lame video based on my discovery of overcoming my own ignorance as i experiment and try everything and anything with the ferver of speed dating at a megachurch! LOL!

Also?..if i see a slow down in board activity?..i rack my brain formulating a controversial topic and post it as a thread in an effort to stimulate some activity and responses...and it's not hard for me to come up with something cause i still encounter many hurdles along the way in my seemingly endless search for that special magic form that comes to me as easy and effortlessly as breathing.

Then for my efforts?..i suffer the occassional accusations of "baiting"...or even "blogging"....when the bottom line is i just try to keep the place active cause i learn so much here from many others.

So...in light of the participation concerns?...and the fact that there is so much to be shared and gleened by cross-training (so to speak)?....if i could vote over again...it would be "NO"...don't split us up...cause as i recall?...

division is never a good solution for a lack of diplomacy as the end result is still dis-unity...wow..imagine that...i've changed my mind...or should i say?..ya'll changed it for me...so?..

keep us UNITED!

then again?...don't listen to me cause last i heard?..i'm bi-polar with acute ADHD. :laugh:

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

One common occurring problem that is being overlooked is that when someone has started a thread in which the subject and the OP’s questions/interest pertain _strictly to bowhunting_; all the tech-talk, target oriented threads…which includes 3-D, BS threads, and all the other non-archery related threads, that are constant…almost perpetual… rapidly ushers the OP’s hunting-relevant thread so far to the back of the list some have fallen out of my monitor and onto my keyboard; hardly responded to and never to be seen again.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I'd suggest the reverse is true too Windwalker. Some OP's ask about how to learn, or how to improve and are inundated with hunting oriented replies. Many replies are very correct but way off the OP's original question.

In an ideal world, all responders would address the actual posted question (whatever it was) and not drag other (rather unrelated) information into it.

Arne


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

No....before compounds when stickbows were the only choice..and there were no 3D shoots....stickbow shooters shot targets as practice for hunting.....they shot indoor rounds, they shot field shoots....Howard Hill was a champion field shooter....G. Fred shot field and hunter rounds....it was all archery and was considered practice to help hunting.....I don't know where the idea came from that trad shooters should not shoot paper targets with bullseyes....and that is only for compound or recurve shooters with sights.....but it seems to be the prevalent mindset now.....

Shooting is shooting, and all types should be encouraged...the goal is to shoot an arrow and hit a certain mark.....perhaps if some stickbow shooters would go back to shooting paper targets every now and then....form and accuracy would improve as a whole....

Now that 3d's are around.....the acceptable accuracy has become a vital area on an animal...rather than an exact bullseye which requires a little more accuracy...I feel that 3D shooting, while beneficial for hunting....has provided a "close enough" mindset as far as shooting accuracy....

In my mind....they should stay in the same area......this sport is divided enough already without further splitting hairs.....


lee


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

You guys just need to learn that we all are different individuals and we all LOVE to shoot arrows , no matter what style we choose to shoot... Because someone shoots differently (or thinks differently) than you do , is no reason for ridicule or abuse in any manner... * We must Agree to disagree* ... and in a friendly manner ... It’s called Freedom of Speech ... 
So with some propriety, just be Polite and remember , everybody else is not Wrong just because You think so ... anybody that doesn’t want to Play Nice can just Bugger Off !!!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

fotoguy said:


> Now that 3d's are around.....the acceptable accuracy has become a vital area on an animal...rather than an exact bullseye which requires a little more accuracy...I feel that 3D shooting, while beneficial for hunting....has provided a "close enough" mindset as far as shooting accuracy....
> 
> In my mind....they should stay in the same area......this sport is divided enough already without further splitting hairs.....
> 
> ...


The 10 ring (which I always strive for ) is roughly the same size as an NFAA 300 Round 5 ring on most 3D targets, and often times smaller depending on the target. So I respectfully disagree with the close enough mindset. Close enough, is not good enough for me. Also the stakes at which you shoot from depending on your class, can go out to 30+ yards, and do on every course I've shot. While those are not field archery distances, they sure trump a 300 round @ 20 any day. The other thing to consider is there are no make up shots for the first bad arrow. One and done.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

heck no. why?

dont we all, regardless of pursuit, be it target, hunting or just for fun...want to hit what we are aiming at...dont we?

for all the "hunters" that dont want to hear good advice and shoot BETTER, youre doing both yourself and the game you pursue a disservice accepting p poor accuracy and mismatched equipment and then closing your eyes and ears to offered help.


I guess for some its just easier to accept poor shooting, blame the equipment while stomping around the woods in their fedoras turning game animals into next weeks raven n coyote food rather than put in the time and EFFORT necessary to become proficient sans wheels,sights,releases,and other assorted gizmos n gadgets


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

moose, i agree...but how many trad 3d shooters actually aim for the 10 ring....? i did not say every stickbow shooter has that mentality..but i have been to enough trad shoots over the years to base my statement on.....perhaps you and those you shoot with aim for the 10 ring ...but i stand by my statement that for the most part....trad shooters shoot 3d's with the "close enough" mindset.....the 10 ring is a small target..and at 30 yards, I cannot see it without binoculars....and depending on the animal, manufacturer, the 10 and 12 rings are in certain places.....that could only be seen with binos.....and as I go to various shoots......I don't see many of them being used....

so..I applaud you for striving for the ten ring..all I am saying is you are one of the exceptions, not the general rule......go to a trad shoot and stand on the practice range and tell me if I am wrong.....i have attended too many and seen mediocre to horrible shooting to convince me that is the case.....


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> I voted no....why? Because as archers we all shoot targets the only difference is that some of those targets will bleed and die, but all are of equal importance to the individual shooter. As I sit here in my home darkened by the power of yesterday's storms, I look out my window at a yard filled with downed limbs and trees, I smile... Why? Because my family is safe, and I am alive...alive after making it through what was the second worse day of my life( the first being the loss of my son Dustin) , it started with an argument which led to my sleeping on the couch, followed by a 2:04am message from A friend who was upset that I didn't build his bow before paying customers who have waited longer than he..."you should put your friends first!".... Hmmm really? Friends should understand.....but sometimes understanding has it's limits......just as it does here...... And as we exchanged messages, the last one read by me while I was in my doctors office......waiting....see yesterday was my birthday, I'm 52, and the doc told me I have cancer.......happy birthday to me!.......so you fellas do what you want, I'm done fighting here, I have better things to do,and I'll bet after reading this I hope you realize that you do too, life is short, don't waste it being stupid, no matter how right you think you are.


I'm so sorry to hear of that diagnosis Steve ...my thoughts and prayers are for your complete recovery

Mac


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## gdpolk (Jan 9, 2012)

I prefer them together. I've learned a lot from both the hunting and target oriented posts and like just having them all there to pique my interest.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

fotoguy said:


> moose, i agree...but how many trad 3d shooters actually aim for the 10 ring....? i did not say every stickbow shooter has that mentality..but i have been to enough trad shoots over the years to base my statement on.....perhaps you and those you shoot with aim for the 10 ring ...but i stand by my statement that for the most part....trad shooters shoot 3d's with the "close enough" mindset.....the 10 ring is a small target..and at 30 yards, I cannot see it without binoculars....and depending on the animal, manufacturer, the 10 and 12 rings are in certain places.....that could only be seen with binos.....and as I go to various shoots......I don't see many of them being used....
> 
> so..I applaud you for striving for the ten ring..all I am saying is you are one of the exceptions, not the general rule......go to a trad shoot and stand on the practice range and tell me if I am wrong.....i have attended too many and seen mediocre to horrible shooting to convince me that is the case.....


Lee...maybe we're way more competitive down south here but i've only run into a couple guys who shot as you describe "close enough"...and one was a 64 year old guy who's wife bought him a 55# bear recurve for his birthday...other than that?...every trad archer i've shot with is going for the kill with every shot...that said?...i'm hard pressed to "see the scoring lines" with naked eye at anything much beyond 15yds and even that's a struggle pending how badly the target is shot up..or what animal it is...and many times i nail shots i'm extremely pleased with..shots i call "Heart Splashers"..only to walk up and discover it's a low 8 or maybe even a 5 cause the lines are drawn out near what i'd call "Gut Shot Territory"...but it's only the newbs that i've seen and only when they're getting low on arrows that they might opt to put one in the butt cause they know they don't have the skills to thread the needle between two trees or whathaveyou...which leads me to the point Mac expounds upon...3D is a game...nothing more...and many shots are set up in what an ethical hunter would call "A No-Shoot" situation...even if ya are dang good...and you know this...i'm not telling you nothing new here..but what does it say to the newby when he sees all the greats going for that 12 ring located just above the crotch of a tree?..then pales and goes for a butt shot cause he's down to 2 arrows but still wants to "play"..yet this is santioned by the IBO?...this is how it's done?...cause if you shoot proper form with a light enough bow and get some professional coaching you too can take risky shots in the woods?...and if for any one of a thousand reasons you cant shoot as well as the big dogs you have no business screwing a broahdead on an arrow?...does that mentality help "promote" this sport we love so much?..or does it send all the newbs home feeling crappy about themself only to toss their new recurve in the closet and drag out the bowling ball or golf clubs?...or worse yet?...the newb with enough gumption that they stick with it until they believe they are finally good enough to waltz into the woods to take risky shots?

And the above just touches on just a few of the reasons why the suggestion of this pole came up...and let a member here try to make some suggestions to the newbs that aren't world class flavored and sugar coated with one way, one mindset, one form, or one particular method of aiming and watch what happens..example...i posted the vid below and got comments ranging from...

'"Wow Your Good!"

too...

"Rod Jenkins is shaking his head and you wasted your parents money!"

but guess what?...i was having a blast...actively participating on this forum and?..i dunno bout you but...i count 5 outta 5 very quick killing shots...and by and in large?...i got slammed for posting it...by most of the hot shots who always talk a great game but never post any vids of their supposed skills...and all just because i enjoy practicing and seeing what can be accomplished (al biet with tons of practice) with close range snap shooting...instinctively?...






all i got...but again..like many have already said..we need to be more receptive towards each others stylings, goals and achievements..we need to encourage each other not put each other down just because they arn't doing things verbatim of the way you or i do it.. (yeah i know....i've been guilty of that myself before) but...notice the line below my avatar?..i didn't put that there for everyone else...i put it there to remind myself each time i post...that it's there.

all i got and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## AReric (Mar 6, 2010)

No.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't think 3D targets are to blame for the "good enough" attitude of many trad archers. I think that most trad archers have no idea what the potential of themselves and their equipment really is regarding accuracy. This is the primary reason that I am so opposed to any competition where scores are not posted. Compton and Denton Hill are HUGE traditional archery events - and many of the trad shooters who attend these events will never attend any other trad shoot or event - yet neither of these events post scores - so these shooters really have no idea what good shooting is - what the potential really is.

If you have no idea what the goal is - how can you strive for it?

When I first got into archery I would go to local 3D shoots and there were maybe 3 to 5 trad shooters at them and most of the time I came in first - I was scoring like 152 out of 30 targets - in fact my first trophy has my score - 156 out of 32 targets - that was first place! I had no idea that one day I would be shooting in the 270's on a 30 target course or that that was even possible!

What woke me up to the potential was a really big all traditional shoot in Minnesota - the Rapids Archers Annual Trad Shoot - the first year I went there I was in like 30th place - but I saw the scores of the good shots - and I now new what was possible - and I strove for it and realized if they can do it - so can I. I have since won that shoot 4 times. And became a much better bowhunter for it.

These big all traditional shoots should be posting scores and if they refuse too - we should not attend them. I don't say that guys should be forced to turn in a score card - but for those who want to - they should be posted and then - guys can look at what good shooters score on the very same course that they just shot - and they will have a goal to strive for as I did. The bar will be raised and it will be good for everyone in our sport.

At least that is how I feel about it.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Here we go! Prime example in progress. :BangHead:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> Here we go! Prime example in progress. :BangHead:



Could you be more specific about the example you are referring to here. I don't want to comment without being sure that I'm right about what I 'think' you mean.

I personally don't believe we should make sweeping changes to fix what aint broke.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm with Photoguy 100% here.

I spent about 20 years just throwing arrows and bowhunting. It wasn't until I got SERIOUS about competing (especially on paper targets) that I learned to really shoot, and I was an excellent shot in the yard or roving. Just roving is not in remotely the same category and you would be delusional to think so.

Of course its all just archery for me. The competitive season is over and I haven't touched my target bow much in over a month. I did spend a few sunny hours shooting woodies from a few selfbows on the weekend though. Was it fun, yes. Did it improve my archery at all, no.

-Grant


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I voted no. I like having the two disciplines together. I think there is more in common between the two than differences.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I firmly believe that outdoor and to a smaller extent, indoor 3D archery is the best of both worlds. I have shot and do shoot the paper - but the equipment and styles of shooting by virtually all of the paper shooters are not applicable to bowhunting at all. I shot at the Indoor Nationals 300 round a couple of years ago and other than myself there was onlyone other guy there with a bow and set up that would work for hunting. I think 300 round are great practice and everyone should incorporate them into their routine - but if you are a bowhunter and want to use 300 rounds to improve your bowhunting - you need to use the same equipment and aiming style that you would when hunting.

Competitive 3D rounds require good shooting skills in order to do well and these rounds can and are primarily done with hunting bows and equipment (sure some change it up - but the majority shoot the same stuff that they hunt with).

There is plenty of room for both and both can help - you just have to decide what your primary reason for shooting a bow is and then keep that reason as the foundation of all your shooting.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sharp - the best indoor guys tend to be the best at field and 3d as well (I include you in this group) if they choose to hunt they tend to do well at that as well - shooting is shooting form is form - paper foam flesh it is all the same - CAN YOU HIT THE SPOT that is the question - not how or why you do it. Will I lug my Luxor around the hills for Elk nope but, my form will be the same with my DAS and all the paper and foam I killed this summer will make that trash can kill zone on an elk look like a piece of cake.

Matt


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm still having internet issues. I sat here writing an heartfelt response to Voodoo and a opinion as a member and as a Moderator on the subject of two subforums. It was a long honest response. Right when I hit click I didn't know my internet was out and I lost it all. Darn it!. 
I had a bout that was cancer related in my younger days. My mother has Thyroid cancer and my father has melanoma and mesothelioma. I don't like to tell people that I had cancer because I've seen what my father and mother and some friends have gone through and I just don't feel right even mentioning the word when it pertains to me. But I understand what your going though Voodoo. I will say a prayer for you and your family tonight Steve. 

I will have to wait to respond with my opinion as member and as a moderator on the subject when my internet is back up and working properly.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt - what I was referring too where the Indoor 300 round shooters - they change everything for that - they use extra- long arrows, they may times you fat arrows, they slow the bows down by extra heavy arrows so that they can have a point on exactly at 20 yards and the use the tip of the arrow as a sight - there is no way that this could be applicable in any fashion to bowhunting - nor could Olympic style shooting with huge 3 foot stabalizers sticking out of your bow. Anyhow - like I said - if your primary reason for shooting a bow is bowhunting - then, in my opinion - whatever type of targets you aim at - it should be done in the same manner and with the same equipment that you bowhunt with and then all of your practice will help you make the best shot possible when that elusive P&Y whitetail - or whatever it is you hunt gives you that one chance to make the shot count. And we as bowhunters an most definitely learn from good target archers - heck - I watch that video of Park Sung Hyun shooting all the time - but I have to tweak what they do for hunting - as any hunter does.


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

I am not saying that everyone should suddenly start shooting field and hunter rounds...but the fact is that before compounds and 3d...those venues was where BOWHUNTERS practiced....I did not say 3D is bad..but that for some reason over the years, shooting spot targets has been downplayed by trad shooters,.....as not needed for their purposes...maybe not....but I feel all aspects of archery play a part in the overall picture.....

I do agree with Sharp..that if more people kept some kind of score....they could see how they measure up....how do you know if you improve if you don't keep track of progress....when I left weights, I have a notebook that records weights, sets and reps so that I have a record of my progress....I do the same when I shoot...I don't necesarily turn in a scorecard, but i do keep one to see progress or not....I want to improve every time I shoot.....

I like to shoot for fun..and I enjoy it...but I can have fun keeping some kind of score...they don't have to be mutually exclusive...

If you go to a trad shoot like Denton Hill, believe me...stand on the practice range and go out on the course and see how many people can hit a vital consistently at 15 yards...there is a prevalent "foam is good" mantra at many of those shoots...where trad shooting is a built in excuse for inaccuracy...AGAIN, I am not saying everyone...but there is a large number of shooters like this....

Jinks, I don't mind if someone enjoys snap shooting at 15 yards, or flinging arrows.....but my only belief is that all forms and types of shooting contribute to the overall experience.....and to separate target and hunting or whatever seems counterproductive.....

Just as we have the right to not read a post written by certain people we do not agree with...we have that same right as far as a post that talks about target shooting, or 3d or hunting.....

I shoot indoor 20yds to be in stable conditions to work on form, release, etc......

I shoot field and hunter, and it gives me opportunity to deal with various distances, and even though they are marked...I feel it registers somewhere subconsciuosly.....and also dealing with terrain and shooting stance...uphill, sidehill, etc.

I shoot 3D to practice for hunting.....through branches, over logs, aiming at a vital...now....do I agree with Mr. McKenzie on a vital shot....not always...and if I am not scoring, or closer to hunting season I tend to focus on where I would want to place a kill shot....

I did not intend to discredit those who merely shoot 3D...but merely to point out that I think everything plays a part in becoming a better shot....each having its own benefits.......

I have found that the folks who shoot target, both indoor and field and hunter, and shoot 3d, and hunt, tend to do all of those things well.....same with the compound shooters at our club.....they shoot everything...and are very good hunters as well......my feeling is that by shooting target/spots, and 3d, and whatever else....that the fact taht frequent shooting breeds familiarity with your equipment, and the knowledge of how it peforms in various instances....the more I shoot, the better I get....the better I get, the more fun I have...the more fun I have....the more I shoot....and so on.....so that when I get a deer in range...I have confidence and knowledge in my equipment and skills......

Each to their own.....but this has been my theory....I just don't know when in time the trad world equated target archery with compounds and sights...and not for them., or not beneficial for the "true trad hunter"..perhaps it was when sight shooters and compound shooters started scoring higher...and instead of trying to improve....they just took their ball and went home.....it's a shame....



Lee


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sharp - Allen Eagleton won indoor nationals this year gap shooting a spig club I know for a fact that his arrow tip is not on the bull - he won the national Fita field this year and the NFAA in Darrington last year- he hunts and my guess is if he showed up at Tennessee he would kick but there as well. My point is that it doesn't matter what bow you shoot it is how you shoot it - Paul Vogel shoots very well indoor and on the 3d range - does he shoot the same set up in both places? - I don't know but I doubt it - it is the archer that matters not the tool.

Matt


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

I think for thousands of years before 3D , there were your two basic targets , animals or people ... :mg:
Does anybody even watch Olympic Archery for more than 5 minutes ...  The Vanity of “scoring “ says “ I’m better than you are “ ! Ego gratification and self esteem ... a game played by children .. and politicians ....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

fotoguy said:


> Jinks, I don't mind if someone enjoys snap shooting at 15 yards, or flinging arrows.....but my only belief is that all forms and types of shooting contribute to the overall experience.....and to separate target and hunting or whatever seems counterproductive.....
> 
> Just as we have the right to not read a post written by certain people we do not agree with...we have that same right as far as a post that talks about target shooting, or 3d or hunting.....
> 
> ...


Fair enough Lee...and i don't wanna do that either...meaning i don't wanna pidgeonhole myself into one discipline or the other but rather enjoy experiencing it all...and i'm trying to do right...i dropped a whopping 12#'s off my Bob Lee so far (amazing i still have the thing LOL!) and snagged that cool 30# Excel..put a nice wood high wrist ortho grip on it and now i'm all jeeped up about meeting Mr. Morley in Holmstead in december for the NAFAC shoot...so now i gotta get my "A" game going with the excel...and none of this would ever of happened if it weren't for AT and it's members here..but that doesn't mean i don't get a kick outta flinging a few ***** style off the Bob Lee every now and then...cause sometimes it's just plain fun to act like a big kid again. :laugh:

Peace, Out. :laugh: Bill. :cool2:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

GPW said:


> I think for thousands of years before 3D , there were your two basic targets , animals or people ... :mg:
> Does anybody even watch Olympic Archery for more than 5 minutes ...  The Vanity of “scoring “ says “ I’m better than you are “ ! Ego gratification and self esteem ... a game played by children .. and politicians ....


GPW

I have watched hours of Olympic archery on youtube for me it isn't about ego or scores it is about mastering both the physical and mental game we play - take some time and watch Jay Barr the guy has nerves of steel.






And yes I have killed a pant load of deer

Matt


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

fotoguy said:


> I am not saying that everyone should suddenly start shooting field and hunter rounds...but the fact is that before compounds and 3d...those venues was where BOWHUNTERS practiced....I did not say 3D is bad..but that for some reason over the years, shooting spot targets has been downplayed by trad shooters,.....as not needed for their purposes...maybe not....but I feel all aspects of archery play a part in the overall picture.....
> 
> I do agree with Sharp..that if more people kept some kind of score....they could see how they measure up....how do you know if you improve if you don't keep track of progress....when I left weights, I have a notebook that records weights, sets and reps so that I have a record of my progress....I do the same when I shoot...I don't necesarily turn in a scorecard, but i do keep one to see progress or not....I want to improve every time I shoot.....
> 
> ...


This sums up my experience in shooting sports too. I've always been of the opinion that the difference in target shooting and hunting was pretty minor. 

The best shooters can do it all with a fair degree of competency. A good shooter in any discipline probably has the foundation to do well in another with some minor equipment tweaks and a little practice. Why wouldn't a good 3D shooter be able to shoot well in a 300 round or field with a little adaptation? The same fundamentals work for all and even if all you are interested in is hunting you still have to shoot the bow accurately. IMO the more familiar you are with your equipment the better able you would be to adapt to the unpredictable nature of hunting.

I used to get a kick out of the guys I'd see at the trap/skeet range who would come out for one round before season giving me the line that they never saw the point in learning to shoot clay pigeons since they didn't eat clay, or "I can't hit these things, but put a bird in front of me and I'm deadly". Not saying it isn't possible, but in my experience the best game shots were the best at trap and skeet too.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Although being such a newbie here on AT that I'm going to disqualify myself from voting on such an important issue (obviously, it's somewhat of a hot-button issue, when so many longtime AT'ers have such strong and varied opinions about it), I would like to offer-up the opinion of just one longtime barebow hunter/very new AT'er:

The greatest potential benefit I can see of "splitting" the trad forum into target & hunter forums is for all the other AT newbies, whether primarily target archer or bowhunter, when and if they/we ask, for instance, a tech question. Once the posts start flowing in, the next challenge for the OP is to sort them into factual answers vs. opinions... on top of which, comes the challenge of sorting them by the responding contributors' primary interests. 

And since, for many of us newbies, AT is the first time we've been exposed to such a wealth of archery knowledge (judging by many of the tech question threads I see being posted), sorting through the data we receive in answer to our questions is daunting enough, without the added challenge of asking ourselves, "Well, this member obviously knows his shtuff... but does this answer neccesarily apply to the way I intend to use the information I gain?" 

Example: what's the "perfect" arrow weight for a specific bow and shooter? :wink:
----------------

Suggestion: would it be more, or less, palatable and efficient to maintain the "Traditional Archery" forum, and split it along the design of the Bowhunting forum into subforums - Trad, general discussion; Trad, target archery; Trad, bowhunting?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

GPW said:


> I think for thousands of years before 3D , there were your two basic targets , animals or people ... :mg:
> Does anybody even watch Olympic Archery for more than 5 minutes ...  The Vanity of “scoring “ says “ I’m better than you are “ ! Ego gratification and self esteem ... a game played by children .. and politicians ....


spoken like someone who can't hit the broadside of a barn but sure wants to put down those that can.Sour grapes personified.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GPW said:


> I think for thousands of years before 3D , there were your two basic targets , animals or people ... :mg:
> Does anybody even watch Olympic Archery for more than 5 minutes ...  The Vanity of “scoring “ says “ I’m better than you are “ ! Ego gratification and self esteem ... a game played by children .. and politicians ....





itbeso said:


> spoken like someone who can't hit the broadside of a barn but sure wants to put down those that can.Sour grapes personified.


and i think that BOTH of the above statements are exemplary of what drives topics and polls like this to be taken...and both of ya'll slamming each other just because you each have different styles and goals...and then there's a 3rd venue...mine...where i can enjoy running around the backyard snap shooting ***** style with my Bob Lee just as much as standing at 20 like an olympian with my excel..there's a reason why every soft-serve ice cream machine has 3 flavors..vanilla, chocolate and swirl...and while some will never understand why the other two are even necessary?..others yet will walk up to the window and never order the same flavor twice in a row...yet they all seem to get along just fine when they're face to face in the ice cream parlor...so why can't we do that here?..or do we only serve alter-egos?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> and i think that BOTH of the above statements are exemplary of what drives topics and polls like this to be taken...and both of ya'll slamming each other just because you each have different styles and goals...and then there's a 3rd venue...mine...where i can enjoy running around the backyard snap shooting ***** style with my Bob Lee just as much as standing at 20 like an olympian with my excel..there's a reason why every soft-serve ice cream machine has 3 flavors..vanilla, chocolate and swirl...and while some will never understand why the other two are even necessary?..others yet will walk up to the window and never order the same flavor twice in a row...yet they all seem to get along just fine when they're face to face in the ice cream parlor...so why can't we do that here?..or do we only serve alter-egos?


Jinks, please don't ever compare me to gpw. I defy you to find a post where I put down any style of shooting, and you will never see me posting something like "the vanity of scoring", or scoring is all about ego gratification and self esteem, or that scoring is a game played by children and politicians. I assure you that I am neither. And what are my styles and goals. You make a statement without knowing either.The Rodney King analogy (can't we all just get along) is great in theory but why let posters like gpw take swipes at others without being called out for it?


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"but why let posters like gpw take swipes at others without being called out for it?"

Well because what he posted was his opinion, and he's entitled to it, heck I hate field archery, I think it sucks..... but that is only my opinion.........but it seems that way too many opinions are treated as the gospel by those who want to argue,,,, gotten pretty bad when you can't state your opinion without being called out for it, and that's MY opinion....... and you can't make me change it,lol,lol.....


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

VF1 , Thanks !!! Spoken like a patriot :thumbs_up ... Freedom to express what we like without reprisal .. Thing is , I’m Not saying I’m right and you’re wrong ... Everybody has their own ... makes us Individuals and not sheep . 

Besides , I’m too OLD to give a Rat Zaz what anybody thinks , my time is finite ... say what you want about me ... Don’t Care ... Do your worst “it” ...


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Now for a clarification ex post facto .... Vanity might have been a “harsh” word, Apologies!!! .... what I meant was , scoring is a quantitative thing , an eventual comparison indicating a winner and a loser , therefore “competitive” with it’s social ramifications ... Nothing wrong with that , just not my “bag” ... Being more a Primitive guy , I shoot for FUN .... probably because I "can't hit the broadside of a barn”, unless I’m 15 yards away .... True !!! hahahahahaha


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## Tashaz (Jun 17, 2012)

From my point of view, new to archery, hunting & target are two different beasts. I see nothing wrong from either discipline but they are very different. Simplistic I know but I read the OP, not the whole thread.


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## Tashaz (Jun 17, 2012)

GPW said:


> Now for a clarification ex post facto .... Vanity might have been a “harsh” word, Apologies!!! .... what I meant was , scoring is a quantitative thing , an eventual comparison indicating a winner and a loser , therefore “competitive” with it’s social ramifications ... Nothing wrong with that , just not my “bag” ... Being more a Primitive guy , I shoot for FUN .... probably because I "can't hit the broadside of a barn”, unless I’m 15 yards away .... True !!! hahahahahaha


LMAO!. Nice insight GPW. As long as you are enjoying it then life is good methinks. :thumbs_up


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

Hypothetical question:

You have to teach a new guy to shoot, he's never even touched a bow before. What would you do differently, based on whether the guy wanted to hunt, shoot targets, "stump" or all of the above? 

Please enlighten me.

Viper1 out.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Jay Barr, what a legend.

You keep deer in your pants Matt, wow, I thought I had issues 



QUOTE=Matt_Potter;1064463939]GPW

I have watched hours of Olympic archery on youtube for me it isn't about ego or scores it is about mastering both the physical and mental game we play - take some time and watch Jay Barr the guy has nerves of steel.






And yes I have killed a pant load of deer

Matt[/QUOTE]


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

> And yes I have killed a pant load of deer


Yes Bigjono, I found that as unusual expression too but I make allowances for Matt, he's from Montana, you know..............


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

:focus::grouphug::cheers:


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

V1, the Target guys have a very specific form/stance that must be observed... Hunters usually shoot with a form dictated by the situation , from trees , behind a bush, on one knee ,bent at the waist , whatever... ( the schism) Holding the bow properly , anchoring , release is all the same essentially for either (good upper body form)... Couple friends of mine were Olympic shooters and their form was artistic Perfection ... Great shooters , and bows costing as much as a car .. :mg: The Hunters were shooting whatever they could get , from all kinds of positions ... Different mindset ... Different idea of Fun . 
...a split in the forum would enable gathering with others that share their own interests, with resulting less friction ... "Familiarity breeds contempt” ..


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

G -

So you would teach a new shooter to shoot from


> from trees , behind a bush, on one knee ,bent at the waist , whatever...


 before he can shoot correctly form a simple standing position? 

I also suppose you would have him taking shots at random distances before he can repeatedly hit a stationary target from a single distance?

But yes, I agree that


> Holding the bow properly , anchoring , release is all the same essentially for either (good upper body form)


Again, isn't it easier to teach good upper body form from a standing position, rather than being twisted like a pretzel?

Viper1 out.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Ah those Montana boys, what can you say


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

V1, er no ... that’s not exactly what I said ... what I’d *teach* first is proper Archery form , stance , anchor, etc. etc.. ( Target archery, the “standard” ) After they got that down , then we’d show em’ the other weird hunting stuff ... It’s how I learned , some 50+ years ago ...


But then my teaching experience is teaching folks how to MAKE bows ... out of trees ... :mg: I’m a Bowmaker ... an even smaller group with much more controversy ...  Thank goodness there’s none of that going on here , or we’d be arguing about wood too ...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Hypothetical question:
> 
> ...


Well Viper?..i believe this is one of the strengths i might be honing as i have a tendency to try everything so?..lemme try to answer your question cause i'm almost certain that the "Please Enlighten Me" statement was sarcasim based...so here goes...

1. Find out what his goals are and what he's looking to get out of archery.

If he's just interested in Hunting?: Chances are he isn't going to be a year 'round shooter...so i would tell him up front that if hunting is all he wants to do?..unless he's willing to limit himself to shots of 20yds and under?..or at least practice avidly year 'round?..he'd be better off with a compound..if he still insisted that he was dead set on hunting with stickbows?..at this point i would suggest mounting a sight...explaining to him that taking medium to large size game with a BB stickbow is not an undertaking to be taken lightly and why..i also don't think i would ever suggest that a new hunter who's never touched a bow before start out shooting 3 under..as i think it not a good idea that a new archer be stumbling through the woods with a box of razor blades screwed to the front of his arrow with so little control over things...i'd rather that arrow be secured between two fingers...i wouldn't suggest he attempt gapping...especially shooting split-finger at close ranges...and since his muscles and release skills will be rather under-developed and unpolished?..he probably would see better results executing his shots with one fluid motion with enough poundage to compensate for his poor release skills...all the while aknowledging the fact that no matter how much hot shot talk i toss at this guy?..me, you or the federal government isn't gonna stop this guy from buying a hunting licsense if that's what he's intending to do...so i would take a realistic approach keeping not only his, but the animals best intrests first and foremost..and hopefully i could instill some sound hunting ethics in him by sharing stories of experiences i myself learned the hard way.cause there was not internet back when i first started bowhunting or anybody to tell me how shiddy i'd feel after wounding one of Gods creatures by not my lack of accuracy but...my ignorance of when and when not to take the shot...cause back then?..if ya came back to camp with one less arrow/bullet but no deer?...alls they did was cut yer shirtails...and since your not a hunter?..maybeit's possible that i have managed to enlighten you somewhat there.

If They Wanted to Shoot Targets?: I'd tell'em to order "Shooting The Stickbow" from bass pro shops and send'em to you. :laugh:

If they wanted to stump?: I'd tell'em screw on some judo points and lets go have fun! 

Best honest answers i can come up with sans sarcasim....L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

As to the original question, I would vote NO.

First of all, seperating us further would only succeed in seperating us further.

Second, what next? A wood riser forum and a metal riser forum? ILF/conventional TD? TD/one piece? Longbow/recurve? Custom/production? Right hand/left hand? Laminated/selfbow? Wood arrows/carbon arrows/aluminum arrows...

Third, even the idea that "hunting" isn't "target archery" is somewhat comical to me. (sorry JRW:wink All archery is target archey, it's just that the targets change. Hunting requires a number of vastly different skills but one of them is still the ability to hit your intended target. Driving a taxi isn't NASCAR (even though some cabbies don't understand this) but you still need to know how to drive to do both.

Saying that hunting isn't target archery is like saying that what Michael Phelps does isn't swimming.

The problem isn't that we lump everything together, it's that some people think that a difference of opinion/tactics/style is a personal affront, or an attack on what they do, and then post accordingly. 

KPC


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

GEREP said:


> The problem isn't that we lump everything together, it's that some people think that a difference of opinion/tactics/style is a personal affront, or an attack on what they do, and then post accordingly.


:thumbs_up

Some people are just really sensitive and can become very defensive and take a disagreement way to personally, IMO. It's basically just a difference in personality...which I'm trying to deal with better.

Ray :shade:


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## Live In a Park (Apr 1, 2012)

Keep them together. It seems that "Traditional" is a small enough group. Splitting it would further fracture the discipline make it harder to find good advice. To me, it's all about the bow and arrow, not what you shoot.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Bigjono said:


> Ah those Montana boys, what can you say


You island boys really want to start trading Idioms?? Not sure where the phrase came from but I got big pants.

Matt


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Just human nature to be divisive ... The Whole Country is split down the middle over many things we really have no knowledge of ... and seemed to be programmed by the media to hate each other ... That’s not the American Dream ...more a distraction while “They” make off with all the chickens ... crumbs for thought ... Sorry , OT !

Idioms: how about a “shed load "of Deer ...?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

G - 

So you'd teach proper from first? Interesting. IOWs, there's really no difference in how you'd begin training a new bow hunter or Olympic shooter? That's kinda how I do it as well. I'd say there are things that a bow hunter should know that an Olympic shooter wouldn't care about and vice versa, but those are secondary to the fundamentals or foundation of shooting. 

In fact there's already a "trad bowhunter's forum" http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1103317 where guys can relate their stories and post pictures of their kills

and a stickbow (trad is relative) target forum http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=24 where the target guys can get into as much target specific tech stuff as they like.

The real issue isn't the "old bowhunters" or the "old target guys" it's the new guys who really don't have a clue, except what they've heard or think they've heard. Except for a select few, I think most people here offer pretty good advice to get the new guys started. Further splinting the forum would only make the new guys either get a one sided view of things or do twice the work to get the whole picture and since anyone can post in either forum, all it does is make things more cumbersome. 

Viper1 out.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

GEREP said:


> As to the original question, I would vote NO.
> 
> First of all, seperating us further would only succeed in seperating us further.
> 
> ...


How does an archery forum get *"split"* when you have a section dedicated to target shooting... along the lines of competitive shooting... and me, who is into shooting stumps, lumps and horns? I'm interested in how to deal with obstacles between me and the target, as opposed say, to swirling wind patterns over 90 meters. I'm more interested in form for shooting under a branch/bush as opposed to clickers and wristslings.... its still ARCHERY aint it? If one person does both, competition archery with fancy rigs and jigs, post on the section that has a focus on such, and when hunting or tips on using yer hunting rig after competiton or whatnot, on the "camo collar section".

I don't see that as divisive unless you want to make it so.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

You know what they say about men with big pants Matt.



QUOTE=Matt_Potter;1064469072]You island boys really want to start trading Idioms?? Not sure where the phrase came from but I got big pants.

Matt[/QUOTE]


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

I personally like the idea. If the target section would include being the place to address/discuss all of the various shooting methods I'm all for it. Guys who STILL like to debate what instinctive is, or why gap is better than string walking, blah, blah, blah, whatever! They would have their own special place to engage in those "discussions." That way, hopefully, the hunting section would be nothing but that Bowhunting. Split it up!- Dave Mullins.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rattus58 said:


> How does an archery forum get *"split"* when you have a section dedicated to target shooting... along the lines of competitive shooting... and me, who is into shooting stumps, lumps and horns? I'm interested in how to deal with obstacles between me and the target, as opposed say, to swirling wind patterns over 90 meters. I'm more interested in form for shooting under a branch/bush as opposed to clickers and wristslings.... its still ARCHERY aint it? If one person does both, competition archery with fancy rigs and jigs, post on the section that has a focus on such...


It's really pretty simple rattus. AT already has a forum dedicated to competitive target archery. It's called the "*F.I.T.A, N.A.A., Collegiate Archery, And J.O.A.D. *forum. That's the one that deals with all the fancy target stuff, swirling wind pattern over 90 meters, clickers and wrist slings.

What is being proposed here is a split of the *"Traditional Archery"*, which has *already* been sepearated from the FITA/competition section, and in my opinion, it just further seperates a very small segment of archery. The *"Traditional Archery* forum already encompasses hunting, 3D, stumping, field archery, and yes, even shooting *"lumps."*

:wink:

KPC


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

GEREP said:


> It's really pretty simple rattus. AT already has a forum dedicated to competitive target archery. It's called the "*F.I.T.A, N.A.A., Collegiate Archery, And J.O.A.D. *forum. That's the one that deals with all the fancy target stuff, swirling wind pattern over 90 meters, clickers and wrist slings.
> 
> What is being proposed here is a split of the *"Traditional Archery"*, which has *already* been sepearated from the FITA/competition section, and in my opinion, it just further seperates a very small segment of archery. The *"Traditional Archery* forum already encompasses hunting, 3D, stumping, field archery, and yes, even shooting *"lumps."*
> 
> ...


 Alrighty then.... I'll take my lumps and blunts and keep on .... :grin:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> G -
> 
> So you would teach a new shooter to shoot from before he can shoot correctly form a simple standing position?
> 
> ...


Something your not considering...as well as many others..as it seems to me from the responses here. So my response is not just directed at you.

There are various ways to shoot a bow correctly..accurately..and even consistently..for hunting....and that is what is being looked at here...so...if one was going to actually teach someone who was primarily interested in hunting...as opposed to learning to shoot a bow like a Olympian..then teaching him how to shoot from the various positions would be more beneficial and thus necessary *prior* to teaching them how to shoot like a Olympian * and again..depending entirely on how that individual was going to hunt*.A Olympians stance is used in hunting..as well as many other parts of the proper "form"...this too is a fact under some situations when hunting..and so...is also needed depending on the individuals needs...not a cookie cutter approach to shooting a bow properly.You teach the individual for what they want to do..not what you elect to teach if your primary interest is only target archery and those methods which is most beneficial to the shooter.If all you teach is 1 method of holding and drawing a bow..standing..as well as how to release the string because this is the way you feel is the best to do it based on a target accuracy stand point..then you are doing someone who wants to hunt from all of the various positions they will encounter in the feild if the choose to hunt from them a grave disservice and make learning these methods more difficult..and time consuming.You have to teach each as a individual..and on their goals..not based solely on what you feel is best for them. 

Teaching one to hunt is far different than teaching someone to be able to compete at target shooting. Not only is it a different skill set..but a complete different mindset...where the individual has to adapt to varied terrain..extremes in weather..and in what animal is being hunted..but in the fact that the target is not stationary..and can look and listen to what and where you are. Ethics is also a big part of what is needed to be taught..as well as when to shoot and when not to shoot..and the ramifications for making a bad shot. Teaching someone how to target shoot..or compete in any event does not do this..which is why it is vary important to make this known to the individual..prior to them even picking up the bow.Hunting is not about scoring...it is not about ego...it is not about competing with anyone...it is about killing the animal you are loosening a arrow at..and knowing where on that animal that arrow will kill it best. You have to understand this before anything.Once the individual understands this..then shot placement becomes the priority..because it is either a kill..or a wound..or a miss...not centering the groups on a bulls eye to be scored..percentages can still be accumulated..so one can understand how well they are improving..and for yardages being attempted..but..if ethics aren't part of what is being taught to someone who has never hunted before..then teaching one of the most important things about hunting is never going to be given a chance to instilled on that individual. 

When teaching someone how to use their bow to hunt..you must show them all styles of shooting..not just one and hope they can adapt it in the feild..That is not the best way to teach someone...

One does not need to be twisted like a pretzel to be able to learn or teach shooting from various stances they may encounter when hunting, but it does need to be taught and shown to them if that individual plans on taking that shot...to show them if they are capable and can make a kill shot from that position..and how to adapt to be able to do it. This is a big part of it..and it also reinforces the " Shoot...Don't shoot " ethics...Not wither that type of shot is ethical or not...*but wither it is a ethical shot for that individual...based on his abilities by what he has been taught...*

Hunting is not target shooting..*when* discussing all of the aspects and types of hunting and what is involved in each.The mindset is totally different...and should be..if one is going to be a responsible and ethical hunter. This mindset is not being taught or encouraged or shown in any target competition to the point that it will stay with a individual that has never been exposed to doing any type of actual hunting. Show me where it is...all that is being shown is how to win that competition..with unrealistic shots being afforded to the shooter to make it more friendly to all shooters..Will shooting a bullseye competition do this...no...will shooting a 3d shoot do this...no...because most no longer practice or want to teach the Shoot or No Shoot situation..as it's primary message.Anytime points are being rewarded for a wound..and not being punished is not teaching this..is showing a person if they want to "win" they must take these shots...because that is the very nature of competition...to WIN...and hunting is not about winning..hunting is competition against anyone...regardless what some on this forum may think. 

Anyone that is a responsible hunter...knows and recognizes these facts. We are all individuals with varied opinions...and no one is exactly the same..or believes the same...let alone shoot a bow the same way.Basics can be taught for every individual..but..those to can vary depending on the individual.

Hence my reasoning for the need to have a separate hunting forum...where hunting is the primary topics of discussion can be about this and all of the other things that are vastly different for each of us..and how we go about doing them in the feild....not form..not scoring..not competition...but where all methods of hunting with a traditional bow can be discussed without having to discuss the aspects of target shooting. Will this separate us..no..it will separate what is being discussed..not us as a whole. It's not about pitting one against the other..because each exist and each have many different aspects to them that can and should be discussed to be successful with each.

Mac


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rattus58 said:


> Alrighty then.... I'll take my lumps and blunts and keep on .... :grin:


Keep on keeping on rattus...and never forget, *"lumps" are targets too.*




KPC


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mac - 

So without the excess verbiage, does first learning to shoot properly under controlled conditions help or hurt a "bow hunter"? It's a yes or no answer. 
If your answer is that it can't help or may hurt, then we really have nothing else to talk about. If you believe it can help, then I'm not seeing what you're trying to debate??? 

Both types of shooters are trying to do the same thing, put an arrow where it needs to be and both have *self-inflicted* pressures. 

IMHO, once you get pasted the different outer wear, bow color and perceived mindset, the difference is less than some folks might want to believe. That's just my take on it.

Viper1 out.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

If you seperate the forum you will lose so much of what it has going for it. Arguing may be irritating, but it's a small price to pay for a fantastic melting pot of different styles and experienced shooters to lend different views to a topic.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

kegan said:


> If you seperate the forum you will lose so much of what it has going for it. Arguing may be irritating, but it's a small price to pay for a fantastic melting pot of different styles and experienced shooters to lend different views to a topic.


Kegan nailed it with this statement in my opinion...:thumbs_up


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> Mac -
> 
> So without the excess verbiage, does first learning to shoot properly under controlled conditions help or hurt a "bow hunter"? It's a yes or no answer.
> If your answer is that it can't help or may hurt, then we really have nothing else to talk about. If you believe it can help, then I'm not seeing what you're trying to debate???
> ...


Controlled conditions & to shoot properly ? I think we need to address what each *can be *before continuing..*on another thread.*..so this thread doesn't get side tracked any further...There..I can explain to you just as I would anyone when instructing a individual on how to hunt with a trad bow..and what is really needed.. 

One of the main reasons for the different forum is to stop this kind of arguments/debates/squabbling side tracking almost every hunting thread that gets posted..which should be evident. I'm as guilty of doing this as the next...and would prefer discussing the technical aspect elsewhere 

Mac


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mac -

There's no side-tracking, this is really the crux of the issue. It's not about what "you" or "I" or the "anyone else" wants, as I said there are already separate forums for that both here and elsewhere. The question is about THIS forum and what serves the majority of people who visit, (IMHO) especially those new to this, better? Remember, this isn't a high traffic forum to begin with. If you want a blog to discuss your vision of traditional archery or "bow hunting", you can easily do that. Last time I checked AT was a little bigger than any one member. 

BTW - The fact is that there IS a technical side to shooting, whether at paper or fur, some people want to hear about it, and others don't. That's why we're not obliged to respond to any threads or posts. 

You can profess anything you like, and there will always be people who disagree with with you. It can target vs. hunting, heavy vs light bows or arrows, or what "instinctive" is this week, either you can deal with it or you can't. 

Honestly, I think AT has way too may forums and sub-forums as it is, but that's my opinion and you're entitled to yours.

Viper1 out.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> Mac -
> 
> *So without the excess verbiage, does first learning to shoot properly under controlled conditions help or hurt a "bow hunter"? It's a yes or no answer.
> If your answer is that it can't help or may hurt, then we really have nothing else to talk about.*
> Viper1 out.


wow...talk about a pointed question with limited responses and worded in such a way that to a newby it would appear there's only one sound, logical answer..sorry to butt in Tony but Mac's long past his "In Training Days" but i ain't....and i can tell fresh off the backyard range that for you to narrow it down to a "yes or no" answer is ludicris....and it depends on the archers definition of what "shooting properly" is..cause if i just go out and fling'em without thought?(like i've done with stickbows most my life?)...i do purty good from 20yds on in...you know...realistic and ethical hunting distances?..but if i get up in my head with the shot?..or wondering if i ain't doing something "properly" (according to someone elses definition of what that is?)...i might as well just let down or stand the chance of going arrow hunting...and since we're doing the "Yes or No" answer thing...here's question for you...

Do you think most woudbe stickbow hunters would be be better off or even willing to put the time, effort, cash, discipline and dedication forth learning technics and styles meant to compete at punching paper at 70meters from a pristine olympian posture or...would their time be better spent reading up on which broadheads work best off which arrows off which bows from actual well seasoned, experienced and succesful stickbow hunters and then spend his time practicing his skills from all different shooting positions from 20yds on in...(and since "Hunting" is what he wants to do)...would he be better off learning the seasoned hunters way?

yes or no Tony?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Mac -
> 
> So without the excess verbiage, does first learning to shoot properly under controlled conditions help or hurt a "bow hunter"? It's a yes or no answer.
> If your answer is that it can't help or may hurt, then we really have nothing else to talk about. If you believe it can help, then I'm not seeing what you're trying to debate???
> ...


I'm curious.... how does a hunting only sub-forum take away from shooting? I'm of the opinion, read *opinion*, that target archery and learning how to shoot have little to do with hunting, unless you are suggesting that the shot is everything. Don't get me wrong... I believe that shot placement is paramount, but now we're separating the "target" aspects and focusing only on the "hunting" aspects of archery aren't we? I've been introduced by accident today to the Fred Bear Scoring System, for example that reflects on hunting in a way that you lose points if your shot is badly placed... rather than just a zero.

Shooting and shot placement are one thing, don't you think, as compared to should you take the shot in the first place, something that I'm not schooled enough to say is evident or not in target archery.

Anyways... I'm ok one way or the other, but a sub forum of hunting where you're dealing with hunting ONLY question and criteria is something that you can target... so to speak, as the PRM (politics, religion, and military) subforum is to the Campfire.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

"When teaching someone how to use their bow to hunt..you must show them all styles of shooting..not just one and hope they can adapt it in the feild..That is not the best way to teach someone..."

Mac, So I guess that if I were to come to your shooting school as a new person to archery and ONLY wanting to hunt, my first shot would be in a full ghillie suit, with a "hunting weight" (whatever weight that is) bow, crouched down and shooting under a branch at a "kill zone" that is framed by two tree trunks at XX yards? Sounds like a great way to ensure success and interest to a new shooter. By splitting the forum to "target" and "hunting" and by following your position to what seems to be a logical conclusion to me that is what we will get.

I see from your profile that you enjoy music (all except rap) So let's just start playing the piano (or whatever musical instrument) without learning the scales, keys, rhythm or whatever, 'cause that is not what we want to do, we just want to perform in the night club.

Arne


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Oh come off it, Jinks.

NO ONE is teaching "Olympic style archery" on this forum, and durn few are talking about long range archery beyond 20 yards.
If you want to see Olympic style training, look at the KSL International archery website!

We ARE talking about a *new person* learning a good form with a bow weight they can handle and testing it on paper to be sure they have it down BEFORE starting to learn variations needed for hunting.

As you yourself are doing with your Excel, if I'm not mistaken.

The IMPRESSION I get from you and some of the other posters I've read on this site is *that as a newbee* I:

1. Should start with a hunting weight bow and grow into it if over-bowed. After all, a healthy grown man shouldn't need to shoot any bow less than 40 pounds. Snap shooting is ok, so don't worry about a constant anchor. Don't shoot 3 under (where did THAT come from ??).
2. Never shoot at paper to see how (or if) I am progressing in my shooting skills - just stumps and pine-cones. Maybe 3D if you have a range anywhere close (which a lot of folk don't).
3. Don't worry about learning any form - you shoot from all different positions anyway so it's not important.
4. Learn some stalking/hunting skills, and then
5. Go hunting, but make sure I NEVER wound or miss the animal, even if I can't hit paper.

Really ???

Good luck with that training program - and why aren't you on it?
Not learning "Olympic Archery" are you ???

#4 is very important and worthwhile, but IMHO only AFTER a basic skill set is developed.

So, IMHO, a BEGINNING archer-hunter needs BOTH paper and hunting information to achieve their goals.

That would be best done on a combined forum.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom -

Let's say that shooting or shot placement is 10% of the hunt. Even If I were to give you that number, without that 10% all the other stuff isn't going to matter, unless someone's idea of bow hunting is a 5 yd shot. 

The stuff you're talking about, making an ethical shot, is certainly important, but then we might need a separate forum on ethics, or how about one on still hunting vs stand/blind hunting. Ya know AT does have a bow hunting forum, yeah I know it's all compound guys, but that's totally different, right? I believe there's a compound listed in Mac's sig?

BTW - There was a pretty famous bow hunter who wrote that if you wanted to become a better hunter, take a target shooter to lunch. Wonder where he got that idea from...

Viper1 out.


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## Fl archer (Jul 1, 2006)

Hello ya all, Greetings from flooded florida 

Shooting a target or Hunting with a bow are all interrelated. If you split and have a sub form, then someone is going to point out the difference between whitetail and Elk Hunting and that may lead to more subforms. Keep it simple, be happy..... See ya, going to shoot some skeet. Shot some bow this am


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Isn't there a bowhunting forum now? Pretty sure I check it out every morning... :user:

I know some are pushing for a _Traditional_ bowhunting forum, and while I think there are some valid points for one I think splitting the forum will only dilute what we have, warts and all. I just don't see a lot of difference between what would be a "Traditional Bowhunting" forum and the "Bowhunting" forum that exists now. It would be nice to not read about people taking 50, 60, 70+ yard shots and the daily "I can't find my deer because of my poor shooting and lack of judgement" threads, but I skip them anyway unless I want to raise my blood pressure. 

What I mean is the difference between traditional hunting and an all-encompassing bowhunting forum is the choice of weapon. Hunting tactics are pretty much the same. The only real difference for me when I have the recurve or the compound is effective range and stand placement to account for it. I hunt the same places and look for the same things. The real difference is the weapon and how it's shot. I have a sight on the compound, none on my recurve.

Going on to add to the excess verbiage above, the difference would be the weapon and learning to shoot it. So then we are back to what is the best way for a beginner to learn to shoot. It is still my opinion, and has been through this thread and my experience in other shooting sports, that a beginner is best off learning a solid foundation of the fundamentals of shooting form. Whether it is a longbow, recurve, compound, rifle, pistol, shotgun, there are certain things that work best for most people in most situations. I think a new shooter would be better off starting off standing up straight in a more formal stance than kneeling down and bent over trying to shoot under a limb. Easy stuff first. Shooting in hunting situations is really a more advanced level of archery than some want to acknowledge. Much easier for a new shooter to gain some skills and confidence standing up straight than attempting the difficult shots that might be encountered in the field.

The debate about what _*is*_ proper form, well that is a good one and depends on where you are coming from. Stand up straight, bent over, canted bow vs. vertical, three under vs. split, I certainly don't now which is always the best. I like having a mish-mash of styles and techniques presented. Do any of us really shoot the same? I'd bet we all do it a little differently. It does sometimes turn into a verbal fist fight but that seems to be a small price for a free and open forum. It's true it can get confusing and possibly intimidating for newbies, but I've always been of the opinion that you can't have too much information. I think most people figure out pretty quickly where they fit in the game.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Do you think most woudbe stickbow hunters would be be better off or even willing to put the time, effort, cash, discipline and dedication forth learning technics and styles meant to compete at punching paper at 70meters from a pristine olympian posture or...would their time be better spent reading up on which broadheads work best off which arrows off which bows from actual well seasoned, experienced and succesful stickbow hunters and then spend his time practicing his skills from all different shooting positions from 20yds on in...(and since "Hunting" is what he wants to do)...would he be better off learning the seasoned hunters way?
> 
> yes or no Tony?


I'm not viper but I'd say the answer is no. A resounding *NO*. First of all, the idea that "target" archery is always 70-90 meters is as you say *"ludicris."* (Unless of course you were talking about rap music.:wink









Second, if you can't hit your target, no amount of sage broadhead advice from seasoned stickbow hunters is going to matter one little bit.

KPC


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm not a hunter, field and 3D is as close as I get. 

The training for them involves starting with the basics, essentially a target style, and then adopting it to up-hill, down-hill, side-slopes etc.

You always come back to the original style and deviate from that so have some form of consistency. I can't imagine doing it any other way.

Target shooting can be a goal in itself or a way to develop the consistency that's needed for hunting as much as target shooting.
It will keep you bow fit in the off season. 
Limiting yourself to pie-plate accuracy at 20 yards seems rather a cop out when the majority of people are capable of much more.

Also, for a hunter confining yourself, in practice, to shooting 20 yards or under is too limiting. The longer distances are FUN. And they teach you things that will matter at shorter distances too.

You will be a better short distance hunter for trying out the longer distances.

There's obviously a lot more to hunting than just the shot but it's all archery.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Greysides said:


> The training ... involves starting with the basics, essentially a target style, and then adopting it to up-hill, down-hill, side-slopes etc.
> 
> You always come back to the original style and deviate from that so have some form of consistency. I can't imagine doing it any other way.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Tom -
> 
> Let's say that shooting or shot placement is 10% of the hunt. Even If I were to give you that number, without that 10% all the other stuff isn't going to matter, unless someone's idea of bow hunting is a 5 yd shot.
> 
> ...


Hi Viper... :grin:

Hunting, in my opinion, actually doesn't really matter if you're hunting with a muzzleloader, crossbow, compound, or stickbow. So a forum on hunting, per se, should suffice, but then someone like me who is STRICTLY a traditional_style hunter isn't drawn to anything wheeled.... so I don't visit them threads. For that reason, I see advantage *for me*. If you wanted to keep the stickbow/traditional_style hunters together, and you wanted to talk about specifically "hunting" with a stickbow, wouldn't this be the place to have a sub-forum. 

I see it, albeit selfishly, as a win/win for someone like me.

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Easykeeper said:


> Isn't there a bowhunting forum now? Pretty sure I check it out every morning... :user:
> 
> I know some are pushing for a _Traditional_ bowhunting forum, and while I think there are some valid points for one I think splitting the forum will only dilute what we have, warts and all. I just don't see a lot of difference between what would be a "Traditional Bowhunting" forum and the "Bowhunting" forum that exists now. It would be nice to not read about people taking 50, 60, 70+ yard shots and the daily "I can't find my deer because of my poor shooting and lack of judgement" threads, but I skip them anyway unless I want to raise my blood pressure.
> 
> ...


I get warts when I'm around anything wheeled... :grin:


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> I get warts when I'm around *anything* wheeled... :grin:


You walk everywhere then ??? :wink:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Dewey3 said:


> You walk everywhere then ??? :wink:


Well my wife tells me I should... :grin:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

well?...i think the voting pretty much sums it up...dang near 2:1...and lashing out at each other prolly ain't gonna change it so...

peace, out. :cool2:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Tom -

We've spoken on a number of occasions, so I think I can be blunt. A bunch of old bow hunters sitting around a virtual campfire maybe great, but I think that for a number or newer archers/bowhunters, it would be a great disservice. They should have the exposure to what's possible accuracy wise with a bow, in most cases that's going to require some practice and yes, some formal training. If they aren't interested, that's their choice. 

I'll admit, this may be a personal bias with me, but I've seen way too many incredibly poor shooters using the "trad-bowhunter" moniker as an excuse, err, I mean reason. I just don't see the harm in having different opinions and letting the guy ask all the questions he wants

Again, maybe we need a primitive traditional bowhunter forum and a high-tech traditional bowhunter forum. Oh, yeah, those already exist ... 

Viper1 out.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Tom -
> 
> We've spoken on a number of occasions, so I think I can be blunt. A bunch of old bow hunters sitting around a virtual campfire maybe great, but I think that for a number or newer archers/bowhunters, it would be a great disservice. They should have the exposure to what's possible accuracy wise with a bow, in most cases that's going to require some practice and yes, some formal training. If they aren't interested, that's their choice.
> 
> ...


Hi Viper.... :grin: 

I think that we are missing the point here completely. To paraphrase your comment of a poor shot being excused for with a "traditional" moniker, can't be excused, can it? You make a good shot or you don't. I'm beginning to think that some here are thinking that if you create a sub-forum that all of a sudden all of the good that is with this Traditional Archery Forum is going to be discarded. If you feel that, please explain it. 

For my own self, I just did a quick perusal of the threads currently paged, and then on the next page of threads.. and how many threads do you think I found that related to HUNTING? Yes you're right... ZERO... except one that talked about 3D bowhunting championships. That is what I'm talking about and what anyone else is talking about too.... I think... but I'm just speaking for myself.

There is nothing that goes to traditional_style archery and hunting specifically that I can click on... and I for one wouldn't mind having one here since this is the ONLY page I come to. Of course it's selfish, but why cannot I be selfish? Why can I not want to come to a forum where I can click on bowhunting with a stickbow and know I'm going to get a forum dedicated to hunting issues such as ethics, equipment consideration, scent control (if there is such a thing), shooting in brush, etc without having to wade through dozens of threads and some that have no bowhunting inclination in the topic title that may be bowhunting but because its not in a bowhunting section, I won't even open them up if they don't interest me. I don't know if you get the thrust of what I'm saying here, but shooting isn't what I'm talking about and a newbie ought to be intelligent enough to figure out for themselves what is relevant, and for those that try to suggest (and I get this in my hunter ed, muzzleloader, and other forums as well) that a newbie might get the wrong idea is a, to use the words of another, ludicrous... IN MY OPINION... :grin:

Aloha... Tom


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Hypothetical question:
> 
> ...



That's easy,glad you asked. I even read the other responses.
I would first teach them to cant the bow to a comfortable position for the individual unless that turned out to be something outrageous.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Hunting is a talking thing to a large degree just based on the number of hours you talk it and the number of hours you do it. For 20 years I spent every lunch hour from work in a local sporting goods store. This did three things 1) It kept me from eating to much, 2) It cost me a fortune in purchases, 3) We talked hunting, gun hunting, bow hunting, you name it we talked it. 

There is that aspect of archery where a guy goes into the store a few weeks before season, buys a compound bow and asked if it's sighted in. My experience with these folks is they don't want help they got it all figured out. But there are those that take hunting with a new tool very seriously. 

So the bottom line for me is: The hunter/shooter is going to be in both forums even if you split em; the hunter with his new store sighted bow is not looking for any help so he's not here to start with; and the folks that don't like all the archery talk stuff will find something else not to like pretty quick after you split them up.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Moebow said:


> "When teaching someone how to use their bow to hunt..you must show them all styles of shooting..not just one and hope they can adapt it in the feild..That is not the best way to teach someone..."
> 
> Mac, So I guess that if I were to come to your shooting school as a new person to archery and ONLY wanting to hunt, my first shot would be in a full ghillie suit, with a "hunting weight" (whatever weight that is) bow, crouched down and shooting under a branch at a "kill zone" that is framed by two tree trunks at XX yards? Sounds like a great way to ensure success and interest to a new shooter. By splitting the forum to "target" and "hunting" and by following your position to what seems to be a logical conclusion to me that is what we will get.
> 
> ...


No..if I were to run a "archery hunting school"...the very first thing I would do is I would find out what each student wanted out of archery and why they were wanting to take it up in the first place.Imagine that...actually asking someone why they are wanting to* hunt with the bow* in the first place.My oh My...placing the students ultimate goals..above any personal biases on which is the proper way to shoot a bow..wow...funny thing is...you actually have to know about them all...before you can do this..and if you believe there is only 1 way to do it...you never can explain the differences and the benefits without belittling how someone shoots just because you don't want to accept 1 style of shooting has it's place or not.....If you need examples of people here on this forum doing it...let me know...I will gladly show you what I mean.

That said...I would then base my instructions to them that on that...and what aspect of hunting with a trad bow they wanted to learn. If they wanted to just learn how to shoot a bow to be able to fling arrows at game..with out consideration to anything else..I would not teach them..until they could express to me how they planned on hunting..because each of us needs to have an idea of what we are doing and why when it comes to killing animals as things stand today with all aspects of hunting under the microscope...especially archery...If they..or you have never picked up a bow before..what would be taught first would be vastly different than for a person who understood the basics of a Shoot or Not shoot situation....because your forgetting 1 thing very important...this is about HUNTING...not learning to shoot 101... Camouflage and hunting techniques come much later if one is oblivious to how to shoot..Everyone is different...and no 1 way is ever going to be correct for everyone...We all have different goals..needs..desires...Teaching how to hunt is more than just 1 style of shooting..or even 1 type of bow for accomplishing it and seeing what that individual actually needs can not be done without getting to know who your trying to teach and what they know..or don't know..As a hunter...if I were to run a archery hunting school...I would strive to give a balanced lesson to enlighten each and every student to utilize all methods of shooting to their advantage as well as the tools to do it..Advanced hunter tactics is not meant to be shown to a newbie who doesn't even know how to draw and shoot a bow...good grief...

Thank you though...see...your sarcastic reply/question shows just why a separate hunting forum is needed..

Mac


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Greysides said:


> Also, for a hunter confining yourself, in practice, to shooting 20 yards or under is too limiting. The longer distances are FUN. And they teach you things that will matter at shorter distances too.
> 
> You will be a better short distance hunter for trying out the longer distances.


Excellent point, and one I wish more people understood.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> well?...i think the voting pretty much sums it up...dang near 2:1...and lashing out at each other prolly ain't gonna change it so...
> 
> peace, out. :cool2:



No...not really...if no one was interested in it...then a majority would be indicative to all those here not needing it..but...since 35% of the folks would like it..it shows many are interested..sort of a glass being 1/2 full or 1/2 empty way of looking at it..As I told Double S earlier...a majority either way is not what to look at in this... but if there is a need for one..Hopefully..he understands this and actually looks at what is being said.

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

the margin of voting is nearly two to one against splitting the forum

Imagine if they did - could we bowhunters talk about the IBO "International BOWHUNTERS Organization" 3D tournaments? Would someone complain that we are in the hunting forum and dared to talk about targets? Imagine if we gave advice to watch the form of a great Olympic Archer like Park Sung Hyun as a way to achieve proper back tension? 

My primary purpose for shooting a bow is bowhunting - but I take whatever I can to be a better shot from whoever I can. Do I shoot 300 rounds - you bet, do I shoot paper targets - you bet, do I shoot 3D targets, you bet - and for me it is all geared toward the goal of being a better bowhunter.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Excellent point, and one I wish more people understood.


indeed, that is why I rove while hunting.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> the margin of voting is nearly two to one against splitting the forum
> 
> Imagine if they did - could we bowhunters talk about the IBO "International BOWHUNTERS Organization" 3D tournaments? Would someone complain that we are in the hunting forum and dared to talk about targets? Imagine if we gave advice to watch the form of a great Olympic Archer like Park Sung Hyun as a way to achieve proper back tension?
> 
> My primary purpose for shooting a bow is bowhunting - but I take whatever I can to be a better shot from whoever I can. Do I shoot 300 rounds - you bet, do I shoot paper targets - you bet, do I shoot 3D targets, you bet - and for me it is all geared toward the goal of being a better bowhunter.


why would you want to talk about target shooting in a bowhunting forum if you can talk targets here in AT.... other than you maybe wanting to dominate conversation? 

If you... for example, would notice where it is that I post here, you notice that it is and has nothing to do with IBO... or 3D or other things not related to what I'm interested in... of which bowhunting is one area that I am. You've got all sorts of areas to post, I'm told, so why would you want to post target stuff in a hunting forum unless it had specific hunting application... do you score yourself via the Fred Bear method sharp?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mac - 

There are a few people who jump on the "everybody is different" or "personal goal" bandwagon, because it looks so cool in print, kinda like the old cigarette commercial. Unfortunately, all that tells me is that the person saying that just hasn't done enough instruction to know better. The fact is that when it comes to teaching most things, principles are in place to give the student the best chance of success. In other words. most people aren't that different, but more of a variation on a theme. That's why it's important to know what's negotiable and what isn't, what's just as important is to know when a student is ready to "specialize" and who may actually need a slightly different approach to make things connect. 

From a teaching (and learning) perspective, the last thing you want to do start trying to teach "ethics" right off the bat, all you'll do is bore the crap out of them. Most people actually want to learn how to shoot and hit what they are aiming at. Teach them to make a shot (shooting 101) and thereby know the limitations of their weapons and themselves, and then the ethics part makes more sense. 

What you're presenting is pretty much the "trad" rhetoric", if you believe that, it's cool, but trying to foster or force in on others, not so cool - IMHO. See there are people here who have played the game both ways and understand the difference between a hawk and an handcart. 

Viper1 out.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Alrighty then.... I'll take my lumps and blunts and keep on .... :grin:


Rattus, that was a classy answer and I definitely don't mean that sarcastically.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

IMHO, this is one of the most divisive threads ever posted.

The forum may HAVE to be broken up at this rate, or some may up and leave.

Thinking about it myself ..... :sad:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Dewey3 said:


> IMHO, this is one of the most divisive threads ever posted.
> 
> The forum may HAVE to be broken up at this rate. :sad:


Several polls in the past show that the majority here are bowhunter's, or at least in response. Put them all in the same forum is not breaking them up. It would just condense them . IOW, there's not enough purely target shooters to make a majority voice here. The discontent is within the community of bowhunters. Always has been.

It's just easier to blame the target shooters as a scapegoat.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Dewey3 said:


> IMHO, this is one of the most divisive threads ever posted.
> 
> The forum may HAVE to be broken up at this rate, or some may up and leave.
> 
> Thinking about it myself ..... :sad:


Dewey, I think this has been one of the best threads ever as it has enabled a lot of posters to present their point of view without too much backlash.I have read each post and have come away from some posts(posters) with a better understanding of their viewpoint, even if I haven't agreed with it. I still feel that they should keep us all together but ban posting the word instinctive. OOPS.lol:wink:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Dewey, I think this has been one of the best threads ever as it has enabled a lot of posters to present their point of view without too much backlash.I have read each post and have come away from some posts(posters) with a better understanding of their viewpoint, even if I haven't agreed with it. I still feel that they should keep us all together *but ban posting the word instinctive*. OOPS.lol:wink:


Hahahahaha..... :grin:


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## soflanut (Nov 28, 2006)

Just split between Gap Shooting and Instinctive Shooting


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I have nothing really in common with bowhunters as I don't hunt. I have nothing in common with "Trad" shooters as I don't class myself as trad. I have nothing in common with instinctive shooters as I have practiced aiming methods yet I still come here to learn. Ok, I also come on here to be entertained by the self righteous BS some put on here but mostly to learn.
Part of me thinks that splitting this section would be good, part of me wonders why it has to be called Traditional and part of me thinks it's best left alone so I'm firmly on the fence.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _well?...i think the voting pretty much sums it up...dang near 2:1..._



No it doesn't. 

The present results are nothing more than a sampling of those that just happen to be present and have read and voted. The present results do not actually represent all of the trad members who have not yet seen and read the thread and voted, and the present results do not represent those that have read but are not yet registered members. 



> _...*could we bowhunters talk about the IBO "International BOWHUNTERS Organization" 3D tournaments*? Would someone complain that we are in the hunting forum and dared to talk about targets? Imagine *if we gave advice to watch the form of a great Olympic Archer like Park Sung Hyun as a way to achieve proper back tension?* _


NO! Take it to the target forums. If we are talking bowhunting most will not want to hear about target shooting, 3-D tournaments, scores, winners, who is the greatest target/3-D shooter since sliced bread, or some pompous back-slapping BS, that has little to nothing to do with bowhunting. Some of you paper and foam punchers are just not getting it; there are a number of BOWHUNTERS who have tired...fed up... of hearing your elitist and pompous or unrelated crap. Granted, it will take a bit of trial and error to determine what is or is not appropriate for the Bowhunting forum, but in time it will be worked out. Then maybe a bowhunting thread will survive longer and will have more than a few responses before the thread is pushed out of sight and a out of mind by all the target and techy-talk threads.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Dewey3 said:


> IMHO, this is one of the most divisive threads ever posted.
> 
> The forum may HAVE to be broken up at this rate, or some may up and leave.
> 
> Thinking about it myself ..... :sad:




:wave3: Bye, I bet I don't need to tell ya whose thread you're posting in.


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

WindWalker said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> The present results are nothing more than a sampling of those that just happen to be present and have read and voted. The present results do not actually represent all of the trad members who have not yet seen and read the thread and voted, and the present results do not represent those that have read but are not yet registered members.
> 
> ...


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> The present results are nothing more than a sampling of those that just happen to be present and have read and voted. The present results do not actually represent all of the trad members who have not yet seen and read the thread and voted, and the present results do not represent those that have read but are not yet registered members.
> 
> ...




Hunting seasons are fairly short. Don't get me wrong, I love to hunt too but what would you talk about the rest of the year? As it is now it never gets boring. We can always raise hell about something.:wink:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> Mac -
> 
> There are a few people who jump on the "everybody is different" or "personal goal" bandwagon, because it looks so cool in print, kinda like the old cigarette commercial. Unfortunately, all that tells me is that the person saying that *just hasn't done enough instruction to know better*. The fact is that when it comes to teaching most things, principles are in place to give the student the best chance of success. In other words. most people aren't that different, but more of a variation on a theme. That's why it's important to know what's negotiable and what isn't, what's just as important is to know when a student is ready to "specialize" and who may actually need a slightly different approach to make things connect.
> 
> ...



Really...and exactly what would we be teaching those that want to know how to hunt ..hmmm...Which is more important that a HUNTER knows and practices...proper back tension...or ethics.. how to shoot a 300 round how and how to compete in a shooting event...or when to shoot and when not to shoot...I'm sorry...but it sounds to me like you have your priorities completely out of sync with anything to do with actual hunting...Bore them...if you don't know (and apparently you don't have the foggiest idea of) how to keep things interesting when teaching ethics..you best stay with teaching the very basics of how to target shoot Tony. Bore I don't think so.....I will tell you what I think though...since you feel ethics is boring..this tells me and most real hunters a lot about you and what you feel is most important and ethics takes a back seat or not even discussed... Without ethics..our hunting will soon be regulated away..and if you don't know this fact..it's time you actually got involved and see what is happening and why. Your continued insistence of your way is better than my way is not only childish...but ignorant of what all I have done and learned over the last 48 years of actual bow hunting experiences. Trad rhetoric...bull hockey...I'm done discussing this with you Tony...you have your target ways...I have my hunting ways...and I understand you completely...but you will never understand me..


> sharpbroadhead
> 
> the margin of voting is nearly two to one against splitting the forum
> 
> ...



Ken:
That will entirely depend on how the admin wants it run and what rules are put in place by who ever is moderating it *if *they elect to allow a sub-hunting forum to be made on the Traditional General forum...but...IMHO...I honestly don't see the need to..because 3d shooting is not hunting...nor is shooting a 300 round..nor is discussing someones so-called 1 size fits all cookie cutter "proper form" approach...A traditional bow hunting forum is for...well...traditional bow hunting...lol...lol...lol



Imagine...if they did...how many other people fed completely up with all of the target archery stuff would come on and post ? How many compound shooters..or all those guys who shoot only primitive bows ? Do you think they want to discuss target archery on a hunting forum ? .. Imagine this if your capable Ken..regardless what style you shoot...being able to discuss your hunting with your set up without having to put up with any crap for what ever type of head you choose to use on that hunt ...one where you could discuss your hunts with out bias or prejudice..or needing to prove a point...wouldn't that be awesome...Is it so difficult not to discuss target archery on a bow hunting forum... 

I can only wish we get a place like that Bro..

Mac


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

> ... but what would you talk about the rest of the year?


Shooting at pinecones? :mg:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

MAC 11700 said:


> No...not really...if no one was interested in it...then a majority would be indicative to all those here not needing it..but...since 35% of the folks would like it..it shows many are interested..*sort of a glass being 1/2 full or 1/2 empty way of looking at it...*
> 
> Mac


Or in this case, sort of a glass being 2/3 full or 1/3 empty way of looking at it...

:wink:


KPC


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Arrowwood said:


> Shooting at pinecones? :mg:


That's a good answer  But a pinecone might be a target unless someone has some recipes to share.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

GEREP said:


> Or in this case, sort of a glass being 2/3 full or 1/3 empty way of looking at it...
> 
> :wink:
> 
> ...


Yup...but now matter how it is looked at...there is a interest in all of this topic and by a good percentage..by many who have not voted one way or another according to the view count..

Mac


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

This has been very entertaining..not! For the past 53 years of shooting a bow I have only had one goal..to be an Archer. Not a Trad shooter, not a target shooter, not a bowhunting shooter. But a well rounded Archer who is capable of doing well in all of these diciplines. When the occasion arises I can shoot instinctively, gap, split vision, string-walk or shoot a compound with a release. Since I shot my first deer in 1959 until now I have shot well over 60 deer and countless small game with stickbows and compounds alike. If my health stays good I'll shoot a few more this year. I'm not saying any of this to talk about myself but to merely point out what is possible if you keep an open mind, remain open to new ideas and not be self-limiting. 

What this thread has pointed out is that some on here are very closed minded and don't want to be exposed to anything out of their comfort zone. Imagine if you will where archery would be today if the patron saints of "Trad" felt that way.back in the days of Fred, Earl, Ben Pearson, Hill, everyone shot targets as well as hunted. Fred shot with a sight on a longbow, Hill used aluminum arrows,and I could go on an on. These folks were all well rounded archers. They all realized that their participation in shooting targets, and using innovative techniques and ideas helped, not hindered their ability to hit the animal they were hunting.

That being said it makes no sense to me or anyone with a thirst for knowledge to separate this forum. Those on here that want to talk only bowhunting fine, don't read the threads pertaining to how to shoot better, but if you happen to stumble upon an idea that you haven't ever considered try it out. It may help, may not, but don't just toss it out cause you have never heard of it. 

Viper, in response to your question: I was a PGA golf professional for quite a few years and have given more golf lessons than I care to think about. You are dead on about teaching good solid fundamentals to ALL new shooters first. Just as in golf the fundamentals are building blocks and there are no shortcuts. Once the foundation is laid then individual preferences can be accounted for. Sharp is a good example of this. He is an instinctive only shooter cause that works well for him. However as he mentioned earlier he stresses the fundamentals as well as shoots all sorts of archery to hone his skill.

Bottom line is there is no need to split what is already a small community, and board. Practice a little tolerance, keep an open mind, embrace new ideas, and get over yourselves!

Sorry for the long post.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Hunting seasons are fairly short. Don't get me wrong, I love to hunt too but what would you talk about the rest of the year?


Only those that when the season has ended and put their bows in the closet or hang it on the wall until the next season, and talking bowhunting is also a seasonal thing with the person and only comes out of the closet or off the wall with their bow, fits that bill.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Those on here that want to talk only bowhunting fine, don't read the threads pertaining to how to shoot better


Did you read?



> _Then maybe a bowhunting thread will survive longer and will have more than a few responses before the thread is pushed out of sight and a out of mind by all the target and techy-talk threads._


Threads in which the OP and others wish to discuss nothing but what is directly related to bowhunting and bowhunting methods, historically do not stay in the upper part of the queue but for a short time until the thread is quickly relegated to the archives because of the constant encroachment by target and tech-talk threads, of which so much is so repetitive and boring.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> Did you read?
> 
> 
> 
> Threads in which the OP and others wish to discuss nothing but what is directly related to bowhunting and bowhunting methods, historically do not stay in the upper part of the queue but for a short time until the thread is quickly relegated to the archives because of the constant encroachment by target and tech-talk threads, of which so much is so repetitive and boring.


Perhaps it is because there are not enough folks who only want to discuss bowhunting to keep a thread alive for any length of time.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Perhaps it is because there are not enough folks who only want to discuss bowhunting to keep a thread alive for any length of time.



Also could be because the bowhunting-related Q's and A's do not require 200 unrelated argumentative derailing crap that sends the OP running for cover. 

Could be that because the threads are overwhelmingly target and tech, the person is not sure whether discussing just bowhunting subjects is acceptable to the members.

Could be because many that want to discuss just bowhunting know that their thread will quickly be taken over by targets and techs so they don't post. 

Could be that because the forum is so inundated with target and tech-talk the person is too intimidated to post simple bowhunting questions that they believe will make him or her appear to be stupid.

Could be that a lot of bowhunters could get more out of just 2 bowhunting threads than they could out of a hundred T&T threads that redundantly run on and on, and the T&T sparring BS just runs on and on.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Could it be that bowhunters don't like being told they need to learn how to shoot first?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

grant - preface that with "some" bowhunters - most bowhunters - as evidenced by the poll numbers fully understand that you cannot separate the two - granted some types of target archery are not applicable to hunting - but most either are or can be depending on the goals of the archer.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

[SUP][/SUP]I thought there was a bowhunting forum already 

I post in it and granted it does not cater to people using stick bows its still bowhunting 

Plus I you split up the target shooters and the hunters where will I get my amusement from


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Could it be that bowhunters don't like being told they need to learn how to shoot first?


Yah! We bowhunters are stupid and do not consider that first learning how to shoot is important. We (bowhunters) are also stupid because some may not use Oly perfect form and methods. Bowhunters are stupid if they would like to discuss non-shooting bowhunting methods before they learn how to shoot. And so on.

Give me a break!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Arrowwood said:


> Shooting at pinecones? :mg:



Killin pinecones,year round bowhunting.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> [SUP][/SUP]I thought there was a bowhunting forum already
> 
> I post in it and granted it does not cater to people using stick bows its still bowhunting
> 
> Plus I you split up the target shooters and the hunters where will I get my amusement from


It's okay Joe...don't worry...i'd just be a pitb and post on both forums...cause i know a little about one and still wanna learn more about the other. :laugh:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Eldermike said:


> That's a good answer  But a pinecone might be a target unless someone has some recipes to share.



I eat pinecones indirectly. Tastes great.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Killin pinecones,year round bowhunting.


yeah baby!...now yer talk'in!..matter fact?...if'in i had to choose another board name i'd be PINECONEKILLER! :laugh:

and i'd ROCK that name! :laugh:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I thought there was a bowhunting forum already...I post in it and granted it does not cater to people using stick bows its still bowhunting


And on AT there are a multitude of target shooting related forums, target league forums, archery coaching forums, finger shooting forums, etc. Your call!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> Could it be that bowhunters don't like being told they need to learn how to shoot first?



Could it be that those kind of comments are what brought us to this conversation in the first place. Maybe it's just me but I saw it as a direct hit thats bound to generate retaliation from someone,and you knew that when you said it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Food for thought.

What would you call a person who gives archery advice, critiques an archer's form or basically tries to guide new archers in making good choices?

I would call them an archery mentor or coach...so most of us that are trying to help other archers out...are in some form or another...are being a coach and/or a mentor.

The problem I often see with some people here is they give advice that is 'cookie cutter' based on their own personal archery interests, experiences and goals...and than act like it's the ONLY 'right' or 'correct' way to do it.

Some of you target archers may know who Rick McKinney is and his opinion on what makes an ELITE archery coach is...which is basically what I've been trying to get some people here to understand.

His opinion regarding Elite archery coaches is: "...the one thing they all had in common was their ability to communicate and how they put their ego’s to the side and kept the archer as the focus. Even John was able to set his accomplishments aside and focus on the archer’s strengths and convert their weakness into a powerful tool enabling it to become one of their stronger points. Another key point that all three coaches were able to do is take an archer and find the archer’s own form and grow on that form. Most coaches can only coach in “their own image” meaning they can only take their own form and make the archer learn how to shoot in that style. After all, it made them good so it has to be good for all archers (according to them). It’s very rare to find a coach that can help you grow in your own skin."

Understanding the similarities and the differences in target archery and bowhunting is key in helping most of the archers here...so if you're pushing 'your way is the only way' than you may be missing the boat.

You may agree or disagree with what Rick and I think in regards to coaching...but there is a difference between so so coaches and coaches that many would consider Elite.

As for me...I try to address each and every archer as an individual taking into account their personal goals, abilities and personality.

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

There are other forums out there that cater to tradtional bowhunters, as well as purely target shooters. If AT is so bad why not go there, honestly? I think a lot of us fall some where in the middle, and this place is perfect for that. I shoot at targets so that I can map my progress, become a more consistently accurate shot, and compare to what's possible. I shoot 3D to help get a better idea of how the gaps (albeit subconscious) relate on lifelike targets and determining distance. I don't take competition any more seriously than trying to out shoot a friend I'm shooting with and my primary focus is putting meat in the freezer, plain and simple.

When I started all I cared about was bowhunting, and in truth all of my archery has that as its core. I didn't pay much attention to "proper shooting" when I started though and as a result wasn't successful until I did listen to those who were shooting a lot better than me. I'm just fortunate enough that it didn't come at the cost of a wounded animal. I know, I say that a lot, but it's how I feel. 

It's also true that we have about six members on here that just seem to hate each others' guts, and their bickering keeps getting worse and worse. As a result of their unwillingness to either ignore each other or play nice, we are looking at running the risk of ruining a great forum. Look at how much traffic the "bow building" sub forum gets. How about the "shooting" forum. There's no end to how specific you can get, and no end to the number of posters this place would lose. Could a sight shooter post in the hunter forum? What if he painted his target ILF recurve olive drab to hunt? Would all builders have to hunt down a "builders" sub forum to post pictures of their new creations, and where do you post pictures of a bow you bought for _both_ hunting and 3D?

It seems like everyone, everywhere, is in a bad mood and not willing to compromise on opinions these days. Archery, politics, religion, cars, ethics, movies, food, you name it and people are bickering about it. I honestly believe it's because we are simply trying to get the best idea to someone else as quickly as possible. Trouble is no two of us are alike, so when someone shares something in opposition to what we believe, we think them a fraud. I reliezed recently from online discussions like these that in the end we have no control over what works for someone, and it's up to them to do what's right and find what works best. 

Don't let this forum fall apart just because a few guys can't get along. It has too much going for it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

kegan said:


> There are other forums out there that cater to tradtional bowhunters, as well as purely target shooters. If AT is so bad why not go there, honestly? I think a lot of us fall some where in the middle, and this place is perfect for that. I shoot at targets so that I can map my progress, become a more consistently accurate shot, and compare to what's possible. I shoot 3D to help get a better idea of how the gaps (albeit subconscious) relate on lifelike targets and determining distance. I don't take competition any more seriously than trying to out shoot a friend I'm shooting with and my primary focus is putting meat in the freezer, plain and simple.
> 
> When I started all I cared about was bowhunting, and in truth all of my archery has that as its core. I didn't pay much attention to "proper shooting" when I started though and as a result wasn't successful until I did listen to those who were shooting a lot better than me. I'm just fortunate enough that it didn't come at the cost of a wounded animal. I know, I say that a lot, but it's how I feel.
> 
> ...




:boxing: HEY KEGAN, could it be that this forum is interesting becuse we don't have a bunch of pansies hugging each other all the time?
I know of other forums that are just plain boring. This one has style.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> grant - preface that with "some" bowhunters - most bowhunters - as evidenced by the poll numbers fully understand that you cannot separate the two - granted some types of target archery are not applicable to hunting - but most either are or can be depending on the goals of the archer.


Seriously...how is it you know that every one that posted not to have a separate forum was a bow hunter ? The poll numbers while in favor of not having an a additional forum..show a significant number of people who do...

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> There are other forums out there that cater to tradtional bowhunters, as well as purely target shooters. If AT is so bad why not go there, honestly? I think a lot of us fall some where in the middle, and this place is perfect for that. I shoot at targets so that I can map my progress, become a more consistently accurate shot, and compare to what's possible. I shoot 3D to help get a better idea of how the gaps (albeit subconscious) relate on lifelike targets and determining distance. I don't take competition any more seriously than trying to out shoot a friend I'm shooting with and my primary focus is putting meat in the freezer, plain and simple.
> 
> When I started all I cared about was bowhunting, and in truth all of my archery has that as its core. I didn't pay much attention to "proper shooting" when I started though and as a result wasn't successful until I did listen to those who were shooting a lot better than me. I'm just fortunate enough that it didn't come at the cost of a wounded animal. I know, I say that a lot, but it's how I feel.
> 
> ...


Hi Kegan,

I'm curious, how would a separate section, such as the Build_Alongs maybe, cause anything here to fall apart?

Aloha... :beer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> There are other forums out there that cater to traditional bowhunters, as well as purely target shooters. *If AT is so bad *why not go there, honestly?


First: Is someone saying that AT is bad?

Second: Are you ready to stand solidly behind your "Don't let the door hit you in your butt" statement?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

WOW...



> If AT is so bad why not go there, honestly?


So...if some here don't like it...just leave...That is how you feel...really...

Wow..and folks said arguing and bickering was the problem causing older long time members with tons to offer was the reason...I honestly think this type of attitude pretty much exposes the real reason..

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> First: Is someone saying that AT is bad?
> 
> Second: Are you ready to stand solidly behind your "Don't let the door hit you in your butt" statement?


What I take away from all of these "negative" comments and statements, are people who are not aparently reading what people are saying as to why they'd like to INCLUDE a bowhunting section. Further, whether Tony, Sharp, or Kegan, and maybe others, just the examples that are offered as to where they would go or post specific items, indicates clearly to me that they are missing the point... at least that is my perspective... and opinion.

I see most who commented on INCLUDING a bowhunting section in the Traditional Archery section, are doing it from a love of traditional archery style of shooting or hunting. I checked out the Bowhunting section... and I'm still not inclined to peruse nor post in that section... its just not for me. I was also enlightened by Kegans if you don't like it commentary. Surprising to say the least... but I guessl we all learn. 

I don't really care if we include a bowhunting section or not in Traditional Archery, it's not going to change my habits any, but to have a postive inclusive attitude as opposed to one of negativity to me at least, means that you have more to offer those who like traditional_style archery.

Aloha... :beer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Rat:

I believe that some that are opposed to having a "Bowhunting" forum are opposed because they are misunderstanding that the intended purpose for the additional forum is to separate and centralize certain categories/discussions, that those that are for a Bowhunting forum are not going to split the scene and harbor up in the forum, never again to be seen in any of the other forums.

I also believe that some that are against having a separate forum category are worried that because they are not bowhunters or as avid a bowhunter as they have hoped most have always believed they are, their credibility and status will be compromised when it becomes obvious they are unable to bring nothing to not much to the bowhunter's table, and if they attempt to talk the talk but are unable to show they can also walk the walk, their street cred will be greatly diminished.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Rat:
> 
> I believe that some that are opposed to having a "Bowhunting" forum are opposed because they are misunderstanding that the intended purpose for the additional forum is to separate and centralize certain categories/discussions, that those that are for a Bowhunting forum are not going to split the scene and harbor up in the forum, never again to be seen in any of the other forums.
> 
> I also believe that some that are against having a separate forum category are worried that because they are not bowhunters or as avid a bowhunter as they have hoped most have always believed they are, their credibility and status will be compromised when it becomes obvious they are unable to bring nothing to not mucho the bowhunter's table, and if they attempt to talk the talk but are unable to show they can also walk the walk, their street cred will be greatly diminished.


 Hi... I agree...That pretty much characterizes why I'd like one... it'd be here, close by, and relevant to Traditional_Style archery... my own personal win/win... :grin:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> I also believe that some that are against having a separate forum category are worried that because they are not bowhunters or as avid a bowhunter as they have hoped most have always believed they are, *their credibility and status will be compromised* when it becomes obvious they are unable to bring nothing to not much to the bowhunter's table, and if they attempt to talk the talk but are unable to show they can also walk the walk, their street cred will be greatly diminished.


:thumbs_up

Something needs to happen, this thread shows that. A trial separation would be a good thing imo. :nod:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Destroyer:

I get the drift of your post, but separation of trad members is not the intent if that is what you mean.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> but separation of trad members is not the intent if that is what you mean.


Not members, attitudes or mindset's if that is the right word.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Not members, attitudes or mindset's if that is the right word.


I would hope that a separate Traditional Bowhunting forum would be for the purpose of broadening and centralizing threads/discussions that would be relevant to things pertaining primarily to bowhunting, which would include how individual bowhunters are able to consistently be accurate shooters though they commonly violate many of the universal rules regarding proper form and many other rules that some swear will always be counterproductive.


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Not to ignore the poll numbers .... It’s not like an Election where you have to win ... The poll indicates that roughly a Third of the populace would like to have a separate forum , that’s a significant number of readers.... With that kind of support , they could easily support another Forum ... Why not , choose where and who you want to hang out with ... Sounds good to me ... JMHO

As a test , make it a Sticky and see who arrives for the party ... :beer:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

This is insane. I simply was trying to point out that AT isn't the only online forum concerned with traditional bows. There's primitivearcher for folks who like wood, and tradgang seems to cater to a big hunting crowd. There's always pirates of archery that has several sections, but we choose to come here to AT for a reason. I don't understand how pointing that simple fact out suddenly "showed my true colors" as some of you are saying. I was over on primitive archer more when I started because I was extremely interested in building bows of all wood. I come here now because I like more discussion of the use of gear, shooting and hunting. 

This is what I'm tired of though, the constant need for creating "your side and my side" arguments. It's not *my* decision whether they create different forums, and I have as much right to post my opinion as you all do. I think we all need to start respecting the right to POST our different opinions, because you can create as many subforums as you want but it won't matter if we don't start cutting each other a little more slack.


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Paleo Planet is good too , with all manner of offerings ... 
Kegan , with most any group dealing with* Weapons *, you’ll find more aggressive natured individuals , people who actually like to have a good brawl , and those that like to watch it, all possessing Strong opinions ... No wusses here ... Don’t expect too Nice eh ? 

I came here expecting some relaxed conversations about traditional bows and arrows, perhaps some bow making ... Ha!!! Everything but that ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

For me - my love of hunting turned into a love of archery - and it is all one in my book - though all of my archery is specifically geard toward hunting - I love any reason to shoot my bow. I wonder what these guys who think there should be a section specific to bowhunting only forum - do all year long - does their bow hang in a closet? If you are not hunting - and you are shooting your bow - you are shooting at targets - be they stumps, 3D, paper - whatever.

I think back to Ken Beck's awesome answer when asked what the advantages and disadvantages of traditional archery are - his brilliant reply was as follows: "The disadvantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get good, the advantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get good".

You are not going to shoot a lot of arrows hunting alone - the only waly to shoot a lot of arrows is to shoot at targets. You cannot seperate bowhunting from target shooting - unless of course you are like some of the compound guys who put their bow in a closet till the week before bow season - but even those guys shoot at targets for a little while before season opens.

There is no difference between shooing at a stump or a 3D target - a target is a target - if anything a case could be made that 3D is better practice for hunting than stumps - since - after all - very few of us hunt anything that even looks like a stump - the 3D targets at least look like what we hunt.

It seems to me that the advocates of the seperation don't get the Ken Beck quote - and are really missing out on how much fun traditional archery really can be - all year long.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> This is insane. I simply was trying to point out that AT isn't the only online forum concerned with traditional bows. There's primitivearcher for folks who like wood, and tradgang seems to cater to a big hunting crowd. There's always pirates of archery that has several sections, but we choose to come here to AT for a reason. I don't understand how pointing that simple fact out suddenly "showed my true colors" as some of you are saying. I was over on primitive archer more when I started because I was extremely interested in building bows of all wood. I come here now because I like more discussion of the use of gear, shooting and hunting.
> 
> This is what I'm tired of though, the constant need for creating "your side and my side" arguments. It's not *my* decision whether they create different forums, and I have as much right to post my opinion as you all do. I think we all need to start respecting the right to POST our different opinions, because you can create as many subforums as you want but it won't matter if we don't start cutting each other a little more slack.


:thumbs_up

The whining. The snide comments. The disrespect. The assumptions. The twisting of people's word. The name calling...all needs to stop.

If you're purposely trying to cause strife or problems here or are consistantly unintensionally doing it because of your personality but have been warned to stop...it is my opinion you should get the boot!

There's no need for this.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> For me - my love of hunting turned into a love of archery I love any reason to shoot my bow. I think back to Ken Beck's awesome answer when asked what the advantages and disadvantages of traditional archery are - his brilliant reply was as follows: "The disadvantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get good, the advantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get good".
> 
> a case could be made that 3D is better practice for hunting than stumps - since - after all - very few of us hunt anything that even looks like a stump - the 3D targets at least look like what we hunt.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm gonna makes this short and sweet for right now As I'm waiting for the internet guy to show up and fix my internet service before it shuts down again.

I saw this comment,

"The whining. The snide comments. The disrespect. The assumptions. The twisting of people's word. The name calling...all needs to stop."

*CORRECT*

You won't believe how many Pm's I get from some new members, even from old members that have been around since AT first opened it's doors..... They all feel the same. They believe that AT has one of the best Trad forums around because it has a great blend of ALL types of people and shooting styles. They end up lurking because they feel that they get brow beat by certain members. So they no longer post but just stop by time to time to see whats going on. Some of the greatest help also tend to be the ones that jump on other peoples opinions. As Mod, I don't want to see members pushed off the section by other members. Members have a right to post, comment, and shouldn't get attacked for their own opinions. It seems to be the same individuals that take things literal, and take everything on a personal level automatically. There's no need to take thing personal and attack people. One thing that I don't want is any type of "division" within this forum. We are too small of a sub forum on AT as it is. I read a lot of great information on these threads everyday....but is it worth reading when during the "Education" your getting belittled?. If I have to get rid of the few same troublemakers....I will....for the betterment of this section. Be respectful and mindful of one another. We all come from all walks of life, education, bow handling and knowledge. Why step on another Archer just to get your point across?. Treat people the way you'd like to be treated and this section would ROCK the crap out of the other forums. For the longtime Archers lurking... reading this...Come on back in and post. The issues here just didn't happen over night, It took time to become this way. It will also take time to straighten itself out.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Double S said:


> I'm gonna makes this short and sweet for right now As I'm waiting for the internet guy to show up and fix my internet service before it shuts down again.
> 
> I saw this comment,
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> For me - my love of hunting turned into a love of archery - and it is all one in my book - though all of my archery is specifically geard toward hunting - I love any reason to shoot my bow. I wonder what these guys who think there should be a section specific to bowhunting only forum - do all year long - does their bow hang in a closet? If you are not hunting - and you are shooting your bow - you are shooting at targets - be they stumps, 3D, paper - whatever.
> 
> I think back to Ken Beck's awesome answer when asked what the advantages and disadvantages of traditional archery are - his brilliant reply was as follows: "The disadvantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get good, the advantage of traditional archery is that you have to shoot a lot of arrows to get good".
> 
> ...


Good post. Exactly what should be happening for those who love archery.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Old Sarge said:


> Good post. Exactly what should be happening for those who love archery.


You know, I get the impresssion that most or many here are mature individuals who have spent a lifetime Life. How is it that *no one seems to get it?* Who is asking for SEPARATION? No one, but everyone here seems to be talking about it. We, or me anyway, am talking about INCLUSION! To add a forum of to the Traditional Archery section on BOWHUNTING!.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> am talking about INCLUSION! To add a forum of to the Traditional Archery section on BOWHUNTING!.


LOL...when you word it like that...I actually wouldn't mind it! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...when you word it like that...I actually wouldn't mind it! :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


Thank you... now there are 4 of us... :grin:


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## Tacoma (Jul 13, 2005)

Double S said:


> "The whining. The snide comments. The disrespect. The assumptions. The twisting of people's word. The name calling...all needs to stop."
> 
> *CORRECT*
> 
> . The issues here just didn't happen over night, It took time to become this way. .


I'm probably stepping on the wrong toes here and if it gets me in trouble so be it; It did indeed take time to become this way, and why did it? Moderator let it. I have no idea of the background of the current moderator, maybe he's new. I have no idea how his duties work or exactly what all his responibilities are, but I do know he had the power to keep this from happening.

There are some very childish people on here (snide comments and disrespect is an understatement), and childish is not even the right word because most children I know have way better behavoir, They are NOT going to change, it is in there nature, they cannot even admit to themselves that they have a problem. No amount of warnings is going to change their behavior. They are petty and snide and negative and detract from the forum.

What I don't understand is the line "It will also take time to straighten itself out". Eliminate those that are a major negative influence and it will straighten right out. 

There is NEVER a valid excuse for rude behavior. Do people make mistakes? absolutely! If someone is rude/snide/petty/juvenile call them on it! If they man up, and say "yep, I was wrong, sorry bout that" then by all means they get a nother chance, (maybe two) but good lord folks, you got people on their 20th chance!! 

You've got at least a half dozen people on here that should no way be allowed to post again unless they want to start with an "I'm sorry" 

Take a hard look in the mirror and man up.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Tacoma said:


> I'm probably stepping on the wrong toes here and if it gets me in trouble so be it; It did indeed take time to become this way, and why did it? Moderator let it. I have no idea of the background of the current moderator, maybe he's new. I have no idea how his duties work or exactly what all his responibilities are, but I do know he had the power to keep this from happening.
> 
> There are some very childish people on here (snide comments and disrespect is an understatement), and childish is not even the right word because most children I know have way better behavoir, They are NOT going to change, it is in there nature, they cannot even admit to themselves that they have a problem. No amount of warnings is going to change their behavior. They are petty and snide and negative and detract from the forum.
> 
> ...


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I guess that I just don't understand why a person would bother to hang around with such hatred for the forum.


The post does seem a bit harsh and a bit uncouth, but on the other hand more people *read* the forum than post, so not having a lot of posts doesn't mean he has no stake in the forum.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Warbow said:


> The post does seem a bit harsh and a bit uncouth, but on the other hand more people *read* the forum than post, so not having a lot of posts doesn't mean he has no stake in the forum.



Oh I wholeheartedly agree with you. But,I think double s is a great moderator and probably has had his hands full with PMs from whiners and crybabies lately and I take offense to a public slam like that. I also believe that anyone who even reads the forum would have some idea about the situation. It's a good forum,most people seem to think it's the best one around. So,some subjects get a little heated. If ya don't like the heat just stay away from the fire. But to lurk for seven years and then publicly slam the moderator who has recieved a lot of praise from the regulars, grrrrrr!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Oh I wholeheartedly agree with you. But,I think double s is a great moderator and probably has had his hands full with PMs from whiners and crybabies lately and I take offense to a public slam like that. I also believe that anyone who even reads the forum would have some idea about the situation. It's a good forum,most people seem to think it's the best one around. So,some subjects get a little heated. If ya don't like the heat just stay away from the fire. But to lurk for seven years and then publicly slam the moderator who has recieved a lot of praise from the regulars, grrrrrr!


I agree with you on that. I think Double S awkwardly inherited a forum that had grown a bit tainted under a mod who had their own agenda, and Double S is working to fix the issues without just taking an axe to the whole place.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Double S said:


> If I have to get rid of the few same troublemakers....I will


We keep hearing this but nothing ever happens.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Destroyer said:


> We keep hearing this but nothing ever happens.



And what exactly would you want to happen? 

You have a lot of posts there so I will recognise you as being involved. No goodbye wave for ya see.:angel:

But I have to wonder if anyone ever really gives much thought to what actually causes the little skirmishes that take place once in a while. Of course I'm sure the moderator has and it's not an easy thing to prevent and still maintain the mose interesting forum on the web. I have been to some of the others on occasion and they are totally boring.

:focus: I don't see very many threads about hunting on the forum. When I do they seem to fizzle quite rapidly. Could that be due to lack of interest? Heck,it's July and too hot in my area to even think about hunting. But if the people who are pushing for a split forum will start more hunting threads,it might distract us all from that nasty word that gets the mud flying. 

SO, somebody,not me, start up a hunting thread and lets see what happens,again.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Warbow said:


> I agree with you on that. I think Double S awkwardly inherited a forum that had grown a bit tainted under a mod who had their own agenda, and Double S is working to fix the issues without just taking an axe to the whole place.



And doing a good job at it too.
There are quite a few newer people to the forum who have posted positive comments about this forum. Some have done so in this very thread. Others wear their feelings on their sleeves and get back on their high horse and ride off into the sunset. :wave3:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> But I have to wonder if anyone ever really gives much thought to what actually causes the little skirmishes


Plenty of thought to it. Lack of knowledge is one, they can't play the ball so they play the man. Secondly, some don't like being made to look foolish even though that isn't the intent, they do that all by themselves. Other reasons include hierarchy, power, influence.

And then we have the individual issues, little man syndrome, mid life crisis, control, etc. The same old reasons that some people bash, bully, stalk, whatever you like to call it.



FORESTGUMP said:


> I don't see very many threads about hunting on the forum.


That is one of the best reasons for a hunting subforum, to encourage more hunting topics. Build it and they will come...


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Destroyer said:


> That is one of the best reasons for a hunting subforum.


Or the worst. I don't believe that the "make it and they will come" philosophy will make a divided AT Trad forum more viable.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Or the worst. I don't believe that the "*make it and they will come*" philosophy will make a divided AT Trad forum more viable.


Lol! Just edited my post and you said that. Anyway, I think it will work but it might not. We won't find out if we don't try though.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Or the worst. I don't believe that the "make it and they will come" philosophy will make a divided AT Trad forum more viable.


How so... PRM is viable.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> How so... PRM is viable.


Hmm...I'm not sure that is a good comparison. Campfire is a dead forum. PRM is a subforum there almost as if it is just a way to hide the PRM. The trad forum is not a dead forum, and there really is a lot of crossover between 3d, target and hunting. We all want to hit what we are aiming at, and all the aiming methods can be used in all of them, and form isn't magically different in hunting, nor is the need to practice to be good.

I like target only trad forums, but the best of them is dead, because trad target archery isn't a well supported sport. So I don't want to risk target and 3d trad shooting being relegated to some sub forum.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Hmm...I'm not sure that is a good comparison. Campfire is a dead forum. PRM is a subforum there almost as if it is just a way to hide the PRM. The trad forum is not a dead forum, and there really is a lot of crossover between 3d, target and hunting. We all want to hit what we are aiming at, and all the aiming methods can be used in all of them, and form isn't magically different in hunting, nor is the need to practice to be good.
> 
> I like target only trad forums, but the best of them is dead, because trad target archery isn't a well supported sport. So I don't want to risk target and 3d trad shooting being relegated to some sub forum.



Bowhunting, warbow, i don't believe is a dead topic, nor do I think that having a sub-forum principally addressing bowhunting, being something negative. Having traditional bowhunting questions asked in a bowhunting sub-forum is easily accessed and most of your bowhunting questions over time are going to be archived in the bowhunting section and much more easily accessed as opposed to guessing what thread contains what here. And one click or two, if they are both in the Traditional Archery forum, you've got all interests here and more easily identified. Including a bowhunting only sub for folks like me makes this more enjoyable.... and doesn't in the least detract from the the Traditional Archery Forum. In my opinion, it would be an enhancement, and who knows, some of those "other forums" that some of the folks here prefer we go to instead of sticking around here, might find us instead.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

No, that makes no sense...


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

At the end of the day I guess the question has to be " do bow hunting and target archery fit well together and benefit each other"
IMHO bowhunting can harm the future development of the target side but at the same time, in North America at least, the target side seems to depend on the bowhunting community so I guess they need to stay together for now.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Good post! There is no doubt that the issues here could be resolved quickly with a strong hand. I think the moderator even hinted at that as a solution but then added that some of these folks offer some of the best advise and add value to the forum. Since this is not a day care facility I tend to agree with your thoughts here, but with regret to some degree. Talent and personality don't always come together.........oh well.


Tacoma said:


> I'm probably stepping on the wrong toes here and if it gets me in trouble so be it; It did indeed take time to become this way, and why did it? Moderator let it. I have no idea of the background of the current moderator, maybe he's new. I have no idea how his duties work or exactly what all his responibilities are, but I do know he had the power to keep this from happening.
> 
> There are some very childish people on here (snide comments and disrespect is an understatement), and childish is not even the right word because most children I know have way better behavoir, They are NOT going to change, it is in there nature, they cannot even admit to themselves that they have a problem. No amount of warnings is going to change their behavior. They are petty and snide and negative and detract from the forum.
> 
> ...


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

Old Sarge said:


> For those who only want to discuss bowhunting try this. Step 1 go to the main AT forum page. Step 2 scroll all the way down to the 2nd Forum catagory which is called Bowhunting. Step 3 click on that forum and find your new home. Step 4. Commence posting.
> Hope you will be happy there, seems like a fine place. Best of all it already exists, no need to split up anything. Or do ya'all have a problem with the bowhunting forum also?


There IS a 3D AND a field forum TOO!
Plenty of room for paper punchers in the trad discussions...


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

But I have to wonder if anyone ever really gives much thought to what actually causes the little skirmishes that take place once in a while.....

Not much, but here goes...

brace height
bow weight
bow length
shooting distance
bareshaft distance
target type
string type
aiming method
shaft spine
shaft length
grains per lb.
nock tension
nock position
broadhead type
broadhead weight
hunting lbs
hunting shot distance
gap shooting
taping a match stick to your bow
mentioning the word "instinctive"
how far you practice from
how many arrows you shoot
shooting rubber deer
shooting stumps
shooting game

Any of those topics will pretty much deteriorate by the third post....

Thats why i love this place.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Highstrung1 said:


> But I have to wonder if anyone ever really gives much thought to what actually causes the little skirmishes that take place once in a while.....
> 
> Not much, but here goes...
> 
> ...


Hahahaha.... :grin: fortunately I'm not interested in but maybe 4 of them topics.... and that is why I'd prefer a traditional bowhunting sub-forum... so we can deteriorate in meaningful discussion...


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

rattus58 said:


> Hahahaha.... :grin: fortunately I'm not interested in but maybe 4 of them topics.... and that is why I'd prefer a traditional bowhunting sub-forum... so we can deteriorate in meaningful discussion...


Ahhh yes! But what would life be if you couldn't have fun with the paper punchers?
btw, i've been bow hunting since 1964, but i still don't know half of what a "jimmy blackmon" knows about shooting a bow....but he's a kid, so it's all good.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Highstrung1 said:


> Ahhh yes! But what would life be if you couldn't have fun with the paper punchers?
> btw, i've been bow hunting since 1964, but i still don't know half of what a "jimmy blackmon" knows about shooting a bow....but he's a kid, so it's all good.


Yeah I love his videos... I've watched some of his bow construction videos too that were really cool.

Aloha... :beer:


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I sent a message to Administration concerning a possible Trad Bow hunting sub form. Plus The link to this thread so they can read the members opinions on the subject. I'll let everyone know when the verdict is in. :wink:

Happy Fourth to all.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Double S said:


> I sent a message to Administration concerning a possible Trad Bow hunting sub form. Plus The link to this thread so they can read the members opinions on the subject. I'll let everyone know when the verdict is in. :wink:
> 
> Happy Fourth to all.


:thumbs_up ... Thanks!!


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

(...for those following both of the current polls, please excuse the repetition...) 

I like it…and it gets an easy nod from me.

Although many types of practice, including target shooting, may benefit the bowhunter, becoming proficient with stick and string is only part of the equation…and this is simply not true for those that do not pair it with facing nature on her terms. Bowhunting, for all its diversity, is basically a relatively simple matter: acquire all the hunting knowledge and experience you can (…that’s an education that will never end)…and shoot as many thousand arrows as it takes to become confident at whatever distance is appropriate to the individual. Unless it’s a matter of survival (which may or may not have a presence in one’s thinking) no other shot should be taken. But that also kinda lies behind the whole matter, because first and foremost, the bowhunter carries a WEAPON…and the full burden of responsibility with its use, to the very best of his/her ability.

There would not, IMO, be any reason to treat many common subjects any differently in a bowhunting forum. And it would also be my sense that “it’s just not the same for everyone” seems to receive more general acceptance among those that are more intent on bowhunting; there is basically no argument with “whatever works”.

IMO, this represents sufficient reason for having a dedicated bowhunting section. It would be refreshing to have the opportunity to portray bowhunting in a serious, responsible fashion instead of the persistent interrupting outspokenness regarding those that are not, and may never be, proficient with a stick and string. Highlighting the lowest common denominator at nearly every opportunity only serves to distract from those in need of assistance/encouragement…and I would very much appreciate seeing some of that “my way” hit the highway. ‘Nuf said, Rick.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

rickstix said:


> (...for those following both of the current polls, please excuse the repetition...)
> 
> I like it…and it gets an easy nod from me.
> 
> ...


Good Post Bro...and what many of us have been saying all along..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

A dedicated bowhunting section? - this whole section is primarily bowhunters - there are only a few that are not bowhunters - over 75% of the people in this forum as it is right now - are primarily bowhunters. And ya know what - I would bet that some of the most successful, dedicated, and serious bowhunters - also shoot at targets and compete in 3D competitions. The vast majority of posts are related to hunting - even the ones that are about aiming methods and different forms - they are questions posted by and answered by the well over 75% of us that are bowhunters as well as target archers.

I find it impossible to believe that any serious dedicated bowhunter would ever be opposed to 3D competition and the benefit it can be to any bowhunter, especially a new hunter. I cannot believe that any serious bowhunter would be opposed to the stuff that Ranger B posts on various methods of aiming and shooting a trad bow and how that could help a bowhunter, how anyone could be oppsed to the use of a formaster to help a new archer get proper back tension, would be opposed to the tips that the very few guys that are target only archers can offer to maintain concentration and form, etc...

This does not even make sense. Some of the most viewed threads in here have been hunting threads - whether it be about arrow weight, broadheads, hunting methods, hunting bows, etc... - sure in the middle of summer those hunting threads simmer down a bit - because guess what - serious bowhunters in the summer are shooting targets - oh no - the dreaded target shooters again. Serious bowhunters spend their summers trying to become more accurate shots so when hunting opens they are the most accurate shot that they can be.

Nobody is stopping anyone from posting threads about hunting - and there are a few going right now - and nobody forces anyone to view any thread in here - if you don't like a thread - don't visit it and better yet - don't post on it.

I don't gap shoot and have no interest in it - so I don't even open threads about gap shooting - but there are lots of guys who do gap shoot and who want to gap shoot - and most of them are hunters - so let them learn - and if you don't like it - don't post in it and don't ruin it for them - I truly wish the same principle was applied to instinctive - but that will likely never happen.

But as I said - if these guys want a seperate forum - give it to them - and I hope that they stay in that forum and that this forum is left as is - so that we can talk about targets AND bowhunting - and if all these guys want to talk about is bowhunting - let them - it might actually clean up a lot of threads in this forum. Just put a sticky in that forum that this one will also discuss bowhunting along with target shooting so that the new guys can get a taste of what other archers, who are serious target archers AND bowhunters talk about and can offer.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I'm amazed that some choose to NOT UNDERSTAND... seemingly on purpose. Lump all the bowhunting related threads together.... how hard to comprehend this?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

How puzzling is it to understand that for those that are mostly interested in all things bowhunting related, down to best socks to wear during cold weather, it would be a benefit to them not to have to search the entire Trad forum threads and dig though all the unrelated BS just to find what may have already been discussed, that is if the thread is not covered with mold. For all things starting with "B," look in the "B" file.


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

I would like to officially change my NO vote (see post #48), to a Yes. Not so much because I want a bowhunting sub forum, but because there are a lot of people that I have a lot of respect for , like Mac and Rattus that want one. I like this forum just the way it is, but in no way wish to be opposed to those who have added so much to make it as good as it is. Pure "Majority Rules" is not always a good thing!.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> A dedicated bowhunting section? - this whole section is primarily bowhunters - there are only a few that are not bowhunters - over 75% of the people in this forum as it is right now - are primarily bowhunters. And ya know what - I would bet that some of the most successful, dedicated, and serious bowhunters - also shoot at targets and compete in 3D competitions. The vast majority of posts are related to hunting - even the ones that are about aiming methods and different forms - they are questions posted by and answered by the well over 75% of us that are bowhunters as well as target archers.
> 
> I find it impossible to believe that any serious dedicated bowhunter would ever be opposed to 3D competition and the benefit it can be to any bowhunter, especially a new hunter. I cannot believe that any serious bowhunter would be opposed to the stuff that Ranger B posts on various methods of aiming and shooting a trad bow and how that could help a bowhunter, how anyone could be oppsed to the use of a formaster to help a new archer get proper back tension, would be opposed to the tips that the very few guys that are target only archers can offer to maintain concentration and form, etc...
> 
> ...




That was a long post, don't make me have to give it a name.:wink:

I get the idea that you are opposed to the proposed change,BUT, You are also one of the people with much to contribute to such a hunting specific subforum. I also get the feeling you might not be too welcome if ya get my drift.

Your testing of lighter arrows and machanical broadheads should be exactly what some new member would be interested in. I have noticed the trend of traditional shooters toward speed just as the compounders have been doing for some time now. Just because I say 'never shoot wimpy arrows' does not mean that it's not the wave of the future to go lighter. That, combined with a mechanical broadhead will be the norm in a few years,like it or not. You just can't stop progress.
Heck there was a time when old timers would not have a radio in a car. And air conditioning,man what a wimp. Now I doubt if you could even find a car without both.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

gnome said:


> I would like to officially change my NO vote (see post #48), to a Yes.


As the vote count (and posts) have now been OFFICIALLY submitted to the AT bosses by Double S, any change in the count now (or arguments for or against) is a moot point.

You didn't get the memo ???

For the official decision waiting are we.

Do ... or do not. There is no more try.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I just feel that to separate this already small forum is a bad idea - and that new guys will get less of a broad idea of what it means to be a traditional bowhunter


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I just feel that to separate this already small forum is a bad idea - and that new guys will get less of a broad idea of what it means to be a traditional bowhunter


What exactly is being separated Sharp? It is a *sub-forum* where those of us that want to discuss ONLY bowhunting would get to do so. And look at the bright side... I wouldn't have to read your exhortations about a 300 round or paper tuning or whatnot... unless it had a broadhead attached to it... :grin:


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

> What exactly is being separated


 ? 
The answer is revealed at the top of the page, where it says,"Do you think _splitting up the traditional section _would be positive?"

I was informed on the other poll thread that "separate" doesn't mean "separation", so maybe in this thread, the word "splitting" is being used in the sense of "combining".:tongue:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Arrowwood said:


> ?
> The answer is revealed at the top of the page, where it says,"Do you think _splitting up the traditional section _would be positive?"
> 
> I was informed on the other poll thread that "separate" doesn't mean "separation", so maybe in this thread, the word "splitting" is being used in the sense of "combining".:tongue:


Well maybe if I could read it would help.... :grin: I get my instructions from the missuse interpreted the same ways often times... :grin:


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