# Reflex - Deflex riser in target bows



## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

The less reflex (more deflex)= more stability and less torque in theory. I think reflex came into being to gain more speed way back when. I'm no engineer, but it makes sense putting the hand and pivot point more forward, in line with the pockets/limbs instead of way back.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Honestly, the whole reflex/deflecting thing never bothered me, and I really don’t notice a big difference. Possibly because I have a long draw length. 
In the end, I never really worry about it. To make a bow the size I need (min 35” ata, preferably 40” ) with a reasonable brace, it’s not going to change all that much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

In my experience it's not a noticeable factor for the shooter and never really has been. The primary dimension that determines torsional stability is brace height - so called "virtual brace height" in particular (the location of the "centerline of pull" with respect to the grip at full draw, usually located around the area of the cam axles). The location of the limb pockets with respect to the grip has only a very minor effect on stability, and is probably too minor to really detect. 

My Hoyt wheel bow has a deflexed handle (pockets located almost directly in vertical line with the grip), but the static brace height is 8 1/2", practically olympic recurve territory. And the virtual brace height is colossally high due to the vertical limb design. Accordingly, you can kind of grab it any ol' way you want at the handle and you'll barely see any effect on the bareshaft.

However, a deflex design makes it easier to get a higher brace height and still preserve speed somewhat - you can still run shorter limbs closer to parallel, but with the limb pockets further back you can increase the brace height. 

Basically, it's just a return to technology that was around 30+ years ago, but quite proven for getting a really stable bow, so why not....

lee.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know and maybe from not being around bows as much as I was. Deflex, reflex, brace height....Bow is put together right and set up right it's hard to tell the difference, shooter being equal to the task. I shot the Mathews Black Max with brace height of 5 1/2" and I shot it great, but then I was completely unaware of the scaring tactics that were then. The reflex on the Black Max, single cam, had to be that of the Hoyt Viper (also a single cam) and it's reflex was given at 2 inches. The Black Max and Viper were the fastest of the fast back in 2000 with speeds of 330 and 328 fps respectively. The Viper died and the Black Max hung on a while.

Not given today are specs of deflex and reflex. Kind of easy to figure sort of. Center line used by Hoyt is through the limb pocket pivot bolts so I'd guess all bow manufacturers measure the same way. Then just measure distance to or from deepest of the grip.

May have to magnify some, but in the boxed pic it shows a deflex of 5/8"


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't know and maybe from not being around bows as much as I was. Deflex, reflex, brace height....Bow is put together right and set up right it's hard to tell the difference, shooter being equal to the task. I shot the Mathews Black Max with brace height of 5 1/2" and I shot it great, but then I was completely unaware of the scaring tactics that were then. The reflex on the Black Max, single cam, had to be that of the Hoyt Viper (also a single cam) and it's reflex was given at 2 inches. The Black Max and Viper were the fastest of the fast back in 2000 with speeds of 330 and 328 fps respectively. The Viper died and the Black Max hung on a while.
> 
> Not given today are specs of deflex and reflex. Kind of easy to figure sort of. Center line used by Hoyt is through the limb pocket pivot bolts so I'd guess all bow manufacturers measure the same way. Then just measure distance to or from deepest of the grip.
> 
> May have to magnify some, but in the boxed pic it shows a deflex of 5/8"


Could be because it was a confusing spec to customers, given that it made virtually zero difference in terms of how the bow shot, felt, etc. So Hoyt probably just forgot about publishing that and only listed brace height, the dimension the customer can feel, and that does make a difference. 

My first "real" target bow, Hoyt Pro Vantage with the magnesium handle, had a brace height over 10" with the grip off. The amount of deflex was pretty outstanding also, but the huge brace height is what made it a virtually untorque-able bow.....

lee.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Its interesting that the newer Mathews target line has indeed gone with straight risers. My Con 4 has some reflex for sure, the Apex 8 is deflexed with an inch more brace but both have been very successful at all levels. I've yet to shoot a TRX/HXC enough to see if they hold any better than the good old Solocams.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

lees said:


> Could be because it was a confusing spec to customers, given that it made virtually zero difference in terms of how the bow shot, felt, etc. So Hoyt probably just forgot about publishing that and only listed brace height, the dimension the customer can feel, and that does make a difference.
> 
> My first "real" target bow, Hoyt Pro Vantage with the magnesium handle, had a brace height over 10" with the grip off. The amount of deflex was pretty outstanding also, but the huge brace height is what made it a virtually untorque-able bow.....
> 
> lee.


I didn't mean to single out Hoyt. None of the manufacturers I know of give deflex or reflex. Every new bow I've ordered (haven't bought one off the racks since 2006). has never came with deflex or reflex specs. Okay, new bows ordered, Hoyt, Bowtech, Martin and Pearson.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> I didn't mean to single out Hoyt. None of the manufacturers I know of give deflex or reflex. Every new bow I've ordered (haven't bought one off the racks since 2006). has never came with deflex or reflex specs. Okay, new bows ordered, Hoyt, Bowtech, Martin and Pearson.


Agree, and I'll admit that the brochure you posted above is, IIRC, the only case I've ever seen where this was given as an actual specification in real, live inches, on a compound bow. These days, the amount of deflex/reflex is generally a TLALWIW ("That Looks About Like What I Want") spec as far as the customer is concerned. 

The good thing is, this technology on the compound bow was all worked out many years ago (30+ by my estimation) and is a well-proven variable to manipulate in order to achieve a particular goal with a bow design. So it's down there with knock travel, cam lean and what the handle and limb pockets are made out of, at or near the bottom of the list of things the shooter should be thinking about at full draw. Whichever one you have you can shoot it with confidence. 

Hoyt seems to be kind of a standard to follow, I believe because they began to talk about it the earliest. Their Gold Medalist recurve handle geometry, for example, is practically the standard in olympic recurve that others follow or compare their varying geometries to.....

lee.


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## chevy_freak (Sep 27, 2015)

Eh, not important. 

I shot target with a 8" brace height straight risered bow 10+ years ago. Got back into it and i'm shooting the exact same scores with a reflex riser and 6" brace height. 

I really think all the specs that make a bow more forgiving only matter for the hunters that pick a bow up and shoot it a few weeks before season. For those of us into target that have good and proper form could shoot any bow no matter how abusive and unforgiving and score about the same. Sure, the foregiveness of the design could add 1-2 points on an off day, but competitive archery is about never having an off day. Having an off day and dropping a few arrows now means you'll be lucky to place, whereas 20 years ago it was just the difference on how many points you won/lost by.


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