# Third axis... Misses



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

It sounds like third axis. How were you setting it before? I'd suggest setting it on the bow for you because it sounds like there's some torque involved at full draw on the shot. 

Sometimes angled targets can mess with the mind and cause issues. I'd verify it, if you're able to on a target facing towards you evenly just to clear your mind. 

Shooting third axis in is a fool proof way to get it dialed in if you're consistent on target. Swing the sight in towards you for misses right downhill. As you lean down with the sight housing swung too far out, your bubble falls to the lower side. So left in this scenario. That means you tilt the bow right to compensate and that'll make the arrows go right.


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## bow9 (Jun 18, 2013)

Thanks rcrchery.... Like the videos to by the way. Wish I had seen your float pattern videos sooner. I have had similar experiences with draw length and differing float patterns


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Thank you! They're pretty unique and I'm glad you found them helpful!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Setting up a sight is a very straight forward thing and you either understand the process or you do not, I don't know your thoughts on setting up a sight so until I hear them I can not point out the issues if there are any. 

When on a up and down course with poor footing mixed in you are going to have each and every part of your shot stressed out to the max and if any of them are not spot on you are going to struggle with funny left and right misses. 

1. Smooth execution
2. sight setup
3. Grip torque
4. Shooting form

Those are the areas that can lead to major issues, for me the easy ones are the sight setup and the grip torque, Sight setup is something that can be done in a matter of minutes and once it is done it takes care of you but the grip torque one is something that you can insure with a torque indicator. Without a torque indicator it is the hardest one to overcome because your grip will lie to you, people without a torque indicator will not understand what I am talking about because until you shoot with one it simply isn't something you can believe. When I come to anchor 99% of the time my torque indicator is perfect and in no need to even be noticed, I can see it in my peep during my shot but I don't even really even look at it but during a 3d shoot sooner or later it will catch my attention, why? Because I will come to anchor and feel awesome and as I settle into the 12 ring it will be really torqued off to one side. This is where your grip is lying to you because it feels freaking awesome just like a perfectly level shot with good footing but the bow is being torqued. It is being torqued by your poor footing along with the downward angle of the shot and between the two of them without a torque indicator it would go un-noticed. When this happens to me I down draw and prepare to draw again and twist the bow slightly and make sure the bow is perfect where the indicator lines up and I then take the shot. Yeah the grip will feel a little funny but that is ok because I then hit dead on left and right and I am ok with that.

You can eliminate sight setup and torque from the issues if you choose and then concentrate on your shooting form and execution and learn how to do them in a smooth way that allows you to shoot strong.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Right impacts downhill and left impacts uphill is the typical scenario for right-handed shooters that have not set up 3rd axis at full draw. As RCR mentioned, you'd swing the sight in toward you to correct the (right) torque that occurs with virtually all right-handed bows with both cables deflected to the same side. 

Right handed bows naturally torque right and left handed bows normally torque left. In both cases the torque causes the sight to swing "away" from the archer at full draw, so the solution for either is normally to swing the sight back in so the sight is square with the line-of-sight (and the arrow) at full draw rather than being square with the riser.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

What the best way to make a torque indicator that can be used with free style sight with scope. Great info


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have shot with one for years and just in the last month or so I figured out a better way, I had shot for a couple months without my indicator. I showed up to a indoor league this winter in december and something had bent my indicator really bad and I just tore it off the bow, so for the rest of the indoor season and the beginning of the 3d season I shot without it. Over those couple months I saw something that I hadn't seen for years, ME STANDING THERE WONDERING WHY IN THE HELL IS MY ARROW OVER THERE? finally I dug into my archery tool box and I found the extra piece of mig welding wire to make a indicator. I bent it into the proper paper clip type shape and black taped it onto my riser even with the lower mounting hole of the sight and I had made it about 1/8 inches to long, This is where I thought of the new trick. I simply bent it back towards me because it bends on a arc and the farther back you bend it you can control the left and right adjustment of the indicator without moving the tape job. On this one I also did a 3/16 bend on the end of it so that it is more like a vertical pin and I painted it white so that I can see it easily with some nail polish. I have mine set where when I am at full draw the indicator is about 1/8 inches below the green sight pin when the sight is set on 50 yards which is my max yardage in asa. Then as I move to shorter distances it moves down the vertical pin towards the sight bubble nice and out of the way. Without the bend on the end the you see the wire coming in from the side once you get past 40 yards way to much but with the little 3/16 bend the wire is not seen, plus that the mig wire is a copper color and I only paint the bend piece that I line up with the vertical sight pin so it basically goes unnoticed.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Hey Padg!

How far back do you have the torque indicator from your sight? Is it even with the back of the riser?

I guess I'm going to have to make one......


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It is just taped onto my riser.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I really believe that shooting with one is a measurable difference, I know that I like using one and have confidence in them but even Donnie noticed that I was missing left and right more than normal this start of the 3d season and I actually allowed some doubt in my shooting ability creep in. I mean when you see the arrow 3 inches to the left you just think that you floated left when the release fired, but the moment that I put my new indicator on I have pretty much been dead on from left to right and I simply don't have any weird arrows. When my pin is on the 12 when the release breaks the arrow hits dead on left and right, When my pin floats off to the edge a little I hit on the edge of the 12 ring just like I should. What has vanished is the whole why in the hell is my arrow over there 2 inches when I know my pin was on the 12 ring really solid when the shot broke?


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

redman said:


> What the best way to make a torque indicator that can be used with free style sight with scope. Great info


Screw a sight shade into your scope. No torque, shade "disappears." Torqued, blackness forms in your sight picture. This is on a sight with a 9" bar mounted at about 8".


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Rick! said:


> Screw a sight shade into your scope. No torque, shade "disappears." Torqued, blackness forms in your sight picture. This is on a sight with a 9" bar mounted at about 8".


It takes a heck of a lot of torque to show up over the (relatively) short length of a scope shade. I used an Axcel X31 scope for indoor which has the "Red Ring Torque Indicator" feature (not the reason I chose it). I don't believe I ever saw red, even when I was intentionally torquing while testing. YMMV

I'm currently using a CBE with a scope shade (again, not for the purpose of indicating torque) and I can't discern any change due to torque with that either. The farther the alignment points on a torque indicator are apart, the more obvious (and precise) the indicator will be.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

If you can see the cables in scope view at full draw you can use them how they are on side of scope


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Right impacts downhill and left impacts uphill is the typical scenario for right-handed shooters that *have not set up 3rd axis at full draw. *


I find this hard to believe. 15 years and not once have I set 3rd axis with bow at full draw and never had a 3rd axis issue. I've also set 3rd axis for several others, the last using the leveled door entrance to my garage. Yep, limbs against the door edge and tilted bow both ways to set 3rd axis. The owner was happy with his shooting that weekend.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

In my experience a torque tuned bow will be a lot less critical of needing the 3rd axis shot in vs. a static alignment. 

Grant


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Torque tuning might reduce left/right misses due to inconsistent hand placement, which can be an issue when shooting uphill/downhill, but 3rd axis adjustment on a bow sight isn't a correction for inconsistent torque, it's a correction for bow induced torque, which causes the level not to be perpendicular to the arrow path/line-of-sight.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Two of my archery friends have been shooting for several decades and have won 9 national field championships between them. They do not set their 3rd axis with the bow at full draw, but have very good form with little to no shooter-induced torque to the bow. 

Work on your form first and foremost and you'll end up needing fewer gadgets to get the job done....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

3rd axis has nothing to do with form, and amost nothing to do shooter induced torque. (ie shooter induced torque is not necessarily bad as long as it's consistent) 

Bows with conventional cabling systems torque to the same side as the cables are deflected. Having said that, not all bows with conventional cabling systems torque the same amount. The greater the torque, the greater the need for 3rd axis leveling. When the bow is drawn the left side of the sight/level increase in distance from the the eye/peep relative to the right side of the scope/bubble. (reverse for left handed bows) In that state, when the bow is tipped downward, the left side of the level (which is farther away from the peep than the right side of the level) will be closer to the ground than the right side of the level. When the left side of the level is at a lower elevation than the right side, the bubble WILL NOT be in the middle. To bring the bubble back into the middle, the bow must be canted to the right causing a right of center impact. Proper 3rd axis leveling simply sets the level square/perpendicular to the arrow path/line of sight at full draw, so tipping the bow does not cause the level to become unlevel when the bow it tipped forward or backward.

There's nothing "gadgety" about 3rd axis leveling. There is a large volume of information about the importance of 3rd axis leveling from professional archers.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

No one is disputing the importance of the 3rd axis, just that it doesn't always need done with bow at full draw. And then I doubt there is 1 in 10,000 that own a draw board to check 3rd axis at full draw. If a 3rd axis problem show after, then, yes, check it at full draw.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> No one is disputing the importance of the 3rd axis, just that it doesn't always need done with bow at full draw. And then I doubt there is 1 in 10,000 that own a draw board to check 3rd axis at full draw. If a 3rd axis problem show after, then, yes, check it at full draw.


Bow torque (which only occurs when a bow is drawn) is the only reason we need 3rd axis adjustment to begin with, otherwise sight manufacturers could just build everything square/perpendicular to the sight extension bar (and therefore the riser) and that would be the end of it. The whole point of 3rd axis is to allow the scope/level to be made perpendicular to the arrow path/line-of-sight while the bow is in shooting position. Absent a bow with zero torque (rare) is it not possible to properly set 3rd axis at brace, because by definition, 3rd axis cannot be correct for both a drawn and an undrawn bow.

There are only 3 types of people that don't need to be concerned with 3rd axis adjustment at full draw

1) Those who only shoot on level ground.
2) Those who don't care about left/right impact changes when shooting inclines.
3) Those who's pin/scope dot is perfectly vertical above their arrow shaft at brace. (ie a bow that has zero bow or shooter induced torque)


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Here we go again....I was not disputing the need for 3rd axis leveling, just the fact that it does not need to be done with the bow at full draw. I have yet to use this method and I even have a couple of national top tens....

Also, a person's form, if not pretty solid, will emphasize (to the negative) any bow-induced torque, so, if that is cleaned up, then they would more likely than not be able to set their 3rd axis in a more time-tested, conventional manner--especially if they are shooting a bow with some sort of torque relief built into the system. 

I and the two friends I noted above are all primarily field shooters, and we do not have any issues with mysterious left/rights shooting inclines after setting the 3rd axis in this manner. There are tons of ways to skin a cat in this game and some ways have been done for a few decades now without any detriment to the competitors' scores....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'll put you and your two friends up against myself and Tim Gillingham and Dan McCarthy (and many other experienced archers pro and otherwise) , who are all adamant that 3rd axis can only be properly set at full draw. 

2 decades ago, myself and my teammates held every individual and every team record in Pennsylvania for Indoor, Outdoor Target, Field, and Bowhunter/Animal rounds. None of us even used levels at that time, so I'm certainly not saying that 3rd axis, much less a level is a requirement to shoot well on inclines, but if you're using a bubble and you've not adjusted the 3rd axis at full draw, you are almost certainly canting the bow on incline shots whether your realize and/or acknowledged it or not.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Bow torque (which only occurs when a bow is drawn) is the only reason we need 3rd axis adjustment to begin with, otherwise sight manufacturers could just build everything square/perpendicular to the sight extension bar (and therefore the riser) and that would be the end of it. The whole point of 3rd axis is to allow the scope/level to be made perpendicular to the arrow path/line-of-sight while the bow is in shooting position. Absent a bow with zero torque (rare) is it not possible to properly set 3rd axis at brace, because by definition, 3rd axis cannot be correct for both a drawn and an undrawn bow.
> 
> There are only 3 types of people that don't need to be concerned with 3rd axis adjustment at full draw
> 
> ...


I think you're rattling off because "so and so" said so or you're reading out of book. In the real world all that counts is the arrow hitting home and I've done a pretty good job of it and never once have I set 3rd axis to a drawn bow. I'll send you a PM.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> I think you're rattling off because "so and so" said so or you're reading out of book.


You couldn't be farther off-base. I built my own drawing machine in the 90's before I even heard term "draw board", much less saw one or read about them. Same goes for bow torque, I was aware of it long before I read about it. It's actually a pretty easy concept to understand, If the level isn't square/perpendicular to the arrow at full draw, the left and right side of the bubble will not be at the same elevation when the bow is tipped forward or backward.



SonnyThomas said:


> In the real world all that counts is the arrow hitting home....


Agree 100%, but the fact is that your real world experience and accomplishments likely wouldn't even be felt under the foot of the names previously mentioned if they stepped on it barefoot... even yours, mine and montigre's combined. That doesn't even account for the fact that those people shoot field abroad, such as the Pro tour which involves incline shooting like no one that's never shot outside the USA has ever seen. Either way, I should know better than to mention actual pros because the "pros" here at AT always pull the same response.... "You're just repeating what you heard or read somewhere". Well, no I'm not, I'm using their comments as supporting evidence, just as Montigre did with the two people referenced.

As is typical, someone asks a legitimate question and the tug-o-war begins. Fortunately, at least this time the question was answered correctly early before things got too muddy.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

BTW, I leased hunting ground in Illinois for about 10 years, and I've shot 3 National level competitions there so I know there is some terrain, but statistically, the State of Illinois is the 2nd FLATTEST in the country. (See condition #1 in post #21 why proper 3rd axis adjustment is unnecessary)


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Strange area for me, I agree with both sides of the argument, 
I agree with nestly that the only way to adjust the 3rd axis properly is at full draw
I would say there is two reasons for this, riser twist and bow torque
Riser twist is nowhere near as bad with today's bows as it was in the old days
Bow torque will always be a variable with different archers

I also agree with sonny, and montigre, as I feel setting my 3rd axis on a jig is close enough to keep my shots in the dot, weather I can keep them in the X or not due to the 3rd axis I can't say. I also mount my sight on a cant so I have always felt I had to live with some degree of "less then perfect"


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Flat doesn't always mean 3rd axis doesn't count. Depending on speed of bow one arches a bow quite a bit for the 70 yard Hunter and 80 yard Field. Flat ground in Illinois is where you find it. The old Caterpillar Archery club, 80 yards down hill and you shot the target for more the 25 yards you shot over it. One of three (maybe 4) 28 Field ranges, Pekin Archers, Pekin, Illinois - 65 yards down hill from off camber footing. 80 yards slightly up hill and off camber footing. Haven't seen a Field range in Illinois as drastic as on the European stage. Tim and Dave seemed to shooting straight down hill and straight up hill (respectively).


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok, so what's the POI delta between a sight that has been 3rd axis leveled off the bow and one that is 3rd axis leveled on the bow at full draw?
What does it even look like on a proper draw device? 1/2 a bubble? A 1/4 bubble? One line off? 
The bow should be a modern target bow like a Dominator, Expression, PCE or Podium. (I'd throw an OK out there but folks might balk at that due to its true shoot thru attributes.)
I'm thinking this is going to be a small POI change, like in the canting thread.
For some, it might be significant (like the OP), for some it will be within 1 sigma and indistinguishable at moderate distances. 

FWIW, I level mine on my PSE vise and never look back.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rick! You have brought up a valid point, the bows mentioned. Longer ata bows don't suffer cam lean like short ata bows. Given this. longer ata aren't effected by torque to the degree shorter ata bows are.

How long of a distance and what degree of angle? My 100 yard walk up fairly up hill. So pretty distance and pretty good incline. So distance, incline and bow angled for trajectory to hit at 80 yards. When shooting Field I took pride in cleaning the Hunter 70 yard Walk Up and the 80 yard Walk Up more than a couple of times. When I shot Field Xs didn't count and I know at least twice I shot clean Xs twice on the 80 W and at least once on the 70 H, that's 4 arrows each.
I shot Xs on the 60 yard butt last Saturday during a Warm Up. I shot only 9 targets and cleaned all except (of things) the 45 yarder and this with a bow I had just set up Thursday and Friday (3rd axis leveled in bow vice). Would have shot more except my sight program only goes to 54 yards and I guessed (guessed good) to hit 55 and 60 yards. 

Two different pictures to maybe show the incline of my 100 yard walk up target bag.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Based on Oldbuck's (Archer1941 on youtube) torque tests the deviation (torque) from brace to full draw (at 20 yards) is as follows:

2015 Mathews NoCam HTR 5.5 inches
2015 PSE Supra 5.5 inches
2015 Elite Synergy 7.75 inches
2016 Halon 6 9.25 inches
2016 Prime Rize 9.25 inches
2015 Hoyt Nitrum30 11.5 inches
2016 Elite Impule34 12 inches
2016 Hoyt Defiant 13.5 inches
2016 Elite Impulse31 14 inches

It's too late and I'm too tired to convert those distances into torque degrees and cant angles tonight, so if someone else wants to do it, knock yourself out.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

nestly said:


> Based on Oldbuck's (Archer1941 on youtube) torque tests the deviation (torque) from brace to full draw (at 20 yards) is as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Bow**inch delfection**degrees*2015 Mathews NoCam HTR 5.5 inches5.50.442015 PSE Supra 5.5 inches5.50.442015 Elite Synergy 7.75 inches7.750.622016 Halon 6 9.25 inches9.250.742016 Prime Rize 9.25 inches9.250.742015 Hoyt Nitrum30 11.5 inches11.50.922016 Elite Impule34 12 inches120.952016 Hoyt Defiant 13.5 inches13.51.072016 Elite Impulse31 14 inches141.11
Interesting, sort of. 

Just for reference, to convert the deflection to degrees: degrees=atan(deflection/distance)*180/pi
There are 60 minutes in one degree, so a 0.44 degree deflection is a bit over 26 MOA. The X on a 5 spot 6.5 MOA.

It seems when you add a human, the "anti-torque" is applied, mostly without much conscious effort?
Or, they move their sight to the right (or left) and never think about it again?
I don't doubt bows with less "built-in" torque could be easier to shoot accurately. 
My 2012 Dominator had a bent cable rod, whether on purpose or by accident, and shot ok.
The PX now has an adjustable tilt tamer, hmmm...
When I loosen the screw on my flexy thingy on my newer PSE's, my POI moves significantly right.
I don't consciously torque my bow to compensate and I imagine that most people with good form and proper grip also do not.
The next step in oldbuck's measurements should be a force measurement of what it takes to create the deflection. Since torque is F cross R, 
he should be able to fill in the F part since R is known and deflection from torque is found in most mechanics of materials books.
My sense is that the force is fairly small.

Hope the OP is taking this all in.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rick, rare, real rare is it for me to have the arrow, string and pin to align with bow at rest. Meaning I sighted with whatever nestly thinks my bow is torqued or twisted. I said it earlier here; "In the real world all that counts is the arrow hitting home."
It's the same with those who go nuts over lateral string travel. Who the hell cares? I know exactly what the bow string does. It travels in a straight line, just at a angle to the bow and that the bow repeats is all that matters. The bow string sure doesn't take a detour or curve from bow at full draw to bow at rest. 

You know archery is supposed to be fun. It just plain ticks me off that some want to make it "rocket science." And it doesn't mean that I don't try things that come along.


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Read the whole thread. Wore me out. I just get a archers Mark distance setting correction, draw, check my bubble and shoot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Oldpro,888 are you familiar with the hamskea level for third axis? I must be missing something when looking at the videos and I like your straight forward approach


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

I set the third with the hamskea, have used one for years. Used the edge of a door before that. Just having some fun. I do think the technical aspect can be overthought. The old saying that a great shooters ability is measured 99% within 6 inches, the space between his ears.
I like to teach that once you get your equipment right, don't change. Tinkering is a huge distraction with the shot confidence


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## soonerboy (Sep 6, 2004)

tagged


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## quickshot22 (Jul 8, 2016)

soonerboy said:


> tagged


tttt


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

I watch a video presented by dave cousin ,he said sometimes with air current, optics and just the way you stand can change things, what dave cousin said to do before you shoot look at target and see where other archer`s arrows are hitting on target and adjust to what you see happening .example a lot of archer`s arrows are hitting 3 inches left and 1-2 inches low,so change your sight to hit the bulleyes. yes 3rd axis is important but sometimes there are other factors different as of air current,heat or cold temps,sun,humidity,altitudes and many more small changes,you kinda learn those things as you shoot more field courses too.its just not a perfect world watch some of dave cousin`s videos he does a good job explaining angles in field archery.


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