# Machined Riser; WNS Vantage AX - Max Draw Weight ?



## OverAnalytical (11 mo ago)

Hi!

Its my first post here, hopefully i have this in the right place and you don't mind me jumping straight in with a question. 

I have just swapped from a WNS Motive FX to WNS Vantage AX. I had problems with a lot of metal shavings accumulating in the limb pocket within days of purchase on the Motive, so wasn't comfortable to get another. Went with the Vantage AX as a replacement.

From research the Motive has been shot by some users at 47-50# for several years without any issue, some mention of minor flex but nothing really bad. This is a forged riser, finished by machine & then polished before coating.

The Vantage AX is 100% CNC, theoretically 'should ' be weaker than forged. That said It's slightly heavier than the Motive, so more material (1210g vs 1120g). No polishing by the looks of it, so nice sharp/ consistent lines, probably aiding rigidity.

The only direct information i have found is that the Vantage AX feels_ 'stiffer than the motive with heavy limbs_' - which isnt much to go off, but is something to note. I guess depending on alloy grade, it could be stronger or weaker but they do not list the grade used on either model.

It's probably safe to assume it can run up to 46# without breaking a sweat, as the vantage limbs come in that weight. How far i can go above that - i have no idea, WNS will not respond which seems a bit rubbish as it is a safety query.

5% above 46# is _probably_ allowable, as that's the adjustment WNS risers comes with. That would be close to 48#.

I would like to shoot 50-55# if the riser allows it, having shot heavier longbows previously, and finding my current draw weight of 42'# too light; but understand its not essential for target. Its a preference thing alone for me, though i see from some olympic shooters these poundages are not that crazy an ask for target. I mostly shoot outdoors, in a windy country and have unlimited range on at least one site - so i can make use of that extra power outside of the range. Primarily though, i bought this as 'a route of entry' into low end competition (olympic & potentially barebow).

*How far do you think the AX will go, and what signs should i look for that im pushing it too hard?*

Thanks for you're time!


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

When you said you shot heavier longbows, was that using Olympic recurve form? Or that you simply were able to pull back the longbow and let it go? And did you measure the longbow at the draw length? And you know that longbow are less efficient than recurves. I assume that longbow was not using modern arrows.

I would imagine the riser can take 55#. But that is really heavy for professional Olympic recurve archers that shoot around 48# - 50#. And those are archers that are training all week shooting hundreds of arrows so they are conditioned to those draw weights. You will also find that 55# is high for barebow as well. Both John Demmer and John Dillinger, two of the top BB shooters, shoot about 40#. Some top male barebow archers shoot 34#.

Exactly why is 42# too light? Can't you reach 70m? If that is not possible at that weight, something is wrong. Target archery is about accuracy, not simply velocity. A Vantage VX at 42# is more than an "entry" into low-end Olympic and barebow competition. You should be competitive with a 42# bow.

I guess I am not sure of your goals. It seem you want to compete in Olympic recurve and barebow, however, you are trying to get to a setup that is not used or extremely rare for both those disciplines. If you are new to both, I don't think you will be able to learn the proper form at 42#. Being able to pull a heavy bow back is not the same as being able to control a bow. You are also setting your self up for injury.


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## OverAnalytical (11 mo ago)

It feels light in that i can hold it for between 30-60 seconds quite readily without much shaking, having been following Jake kaminski's videos he recommends that as a point to increase. That and getting good groupings at my common ranges (30-50m). I was originally around 36# and upgraded for the same reasoning to 42# (olympic style)

I dont shoot a huge amount at longer range, mostly outdoor in the estuary to be honest when i do. I mess about with clouting too sometimes for a bit of fun. No im not that good at range, but its more a skill thing that requires practice.* I find the wind throws my arrows a lot though*, and hope that an increase in weight combined with thinner arrows may go a long way to counter it. We get very heavy winds here, quite often. I dont shoot indoor much right now, and realise its not going to be needed there.

I do shoot quite a bit at the moment focusing on olympic recurve form 30-50m, averaging around 800-1k arrows (most) weeks since september, which is probably why im starting to feel a bit light at 42#. I feel in control at 42, in all honesty. My form has come a long way since september, albeit still work to be done im pleased with the work ive put in. Before that i only shot intermittently over the course of a few years and feel there has been a noticeable improvement in my shooting at medium ranges, and would like to take this further. Im shooting alongside watching Jake's form videos with the occasional session at a proper range. I only intend to creep up 5# at a time, i guess im just hoping to establish an actual safety cap as WNS do not list one. That shot count will slip as i shoot less through summer, i have more free time in winter with work. Ill likely maintain a few limb sets as i progress.

45-50# is where im thinking ill probably max at. Ultimately 55# is in excess of what i expect i need, if the riser can probably handle that it gives peace of mind for the ranges i could end up in. *I just didn't want to be the guy who snaps a riser by trying 50#*.  Sounds like the Vantage is tougher than i might need.

I will be getting a hunting style riser & limbs too through this year, for fun as its unfortunately not legal to hunt here. Ultimately when i do, ill_ probably_ get more at ease in the 45-50# range at 30-40m distances. I would like to experience shooting broadheads at hunting poundages, its the appeal that brought me to the hobby to begin with. I started with olympics because they give a relatively safe platform to practice/ progress, and i have simply enjoyed it enough to want to do both. Long term this will likely lead to a split interest between olympic & the trad/field route, and im finding with the olympic i have the 'want' to at least try some lower end / for fun club competition. I guess its grown on me by accident!

Interesting barebow is shot at a lower weight than olympic, i had no idea that was the case so thank you for the heads up. Barebow has been minimal for me so far, ive only toyed with stringwalking & face crawling but it is fun. Ive tried to keep an open mind toward all aspects of the sport. I mentioned it because i thought stringwalking puts more stress on the riser/limbs? If poundages are lower it probably counters those stresse though.

Im not meaning to draw a comparison between longbow and oly recurve at all, completely different styles. Poorly worded question in all honesty, sorry im cr*p at written format. Just explaining that im used to holding a bit more weight than my current 42# olympic rig which might effect my mindset on 'feel'.

I think in part im also unsure of where my upper end _should_ be. I landscape for a living and im not exactly average in strength, its a very physical job. So i probably should be a little above the average? Its not meant as a macho thing at all, its an uncertainty.

Thank you for the reply


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

I wish you well. I think your riser will be fine with 50#. World Archery rules set the upper limit for Olympic recurve and barebow to 60#, so risers need to meet that. The risers that are most likely to snap are mostly magnesium. Avoid that material.

If you are more interested in hunting, I would step from Olympic recurve to barebow. It is more of a traditional type setup. Barebow poundage is lower as 50m is the longest distance under World Archery rules for both target and field. You only need to make a hole in the paper, not take down the boss.  And in field, the minimum is 5m and so heavy bows are at a disadvantage. Olympic is heavier because of that 70m range. 3-D is only around 30m and you can hit that with 16# (my wife started with 16# and so I know). 

Stringwalking does put more stress on the limbs, but modern ILF limbs can handle that--never string walk traditional bows. Usually, the worst it produces is a loud bow. I believe the Swedish barebow archer Fredrick Lundmark shoots a 50# bow. So it is done, but rare. And Fredrick is a big archer in strength and build. I would watch his performance in the World Archery Field Championships in 2018 in Cortina:






From your description, it sounds like you are moving in the right direction. Sorry for the lecture, but those were really heavy draw weights for target archery. In the US, many states have a minimum draw weight to hunt with for ethical kills (usually 40#) and hunters can use draw weights in the 80# range (although mostly with compound).

And from your description, you might want to consider compound.


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## OverAnalytical (11 mo ago)

No apology needed Hikari - your quite right to lecture me on it. Its a very useful reply, so thank you for the information.

Its funny you should mention string walking is loud, it's the noise and resonance that had me worried while trying stringwalking. So, its normal after all! I thought i was wrecking my previous ilf bow so backed away from it.. I'll keep a more open mind toward it then. The only other issue i had was arrows going out of tune at different crawl points (i use a shibuya DX), from quick reading that should be solved with a beiter. Watching the video 50# is the upper end of what i could ever need in that category (i'm about his size, minus his skill level) - but the range is closer than i would have expected so i agree lower is probably better at this stage for barebow.

I didn't realise trad started at such short distances, same with the avg for 3d. Totally agree that would not be so appropriate at high poundage.

I will get a set at 46# next for the longer range outdoor shooting, likely use 42# for barebow. Take the next stage as it comes.

On the compound front, Im assuming you meant to try compound for hunting / broadheads. I do have a basic compound setup for 'hunting practice'. Well, technically i got it for my wife so its light @ 20-40# / 80% let off. I enjoy shooting it from time to time, I just don't get along well with the whole release aid thing and realise i'd be at a huge disadvantage to shoot compound off the finger.  That was the wrist style release though, im yet to try the other type.

That and i found the compound shooting style a little less fun i guess, it feels a bit more like shooting a rifle would be the only way i can explain it. Still fun of course, just not quite the same thrill as a recurve. Instead i was looking at a W&W Black Wolf or Samick Discovery starting at 50#. If i get good enough with it, i would be keen to pay to hunt abroad. Finland is likely the first place as i have friends there, they only ask 40# but i would feel more confident on a mid sized kill with 50#.

Thanks again for the help!


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Happy to help. Actually I was thinking about compound target. Like you, I really like the recurve for the same reasons.

About your bow noise. Going to a neutral or negative tiller can help with the sound--your OR uses a positive tiller and most bows are setup that way. I assume you have been through your brace height. Limb savers also help a bit. But the deeper the crawl, the louder the bow. I have moved my anchor up to my cheekbone to reduce the crawl I need. I have tried longer arrows to reduce my crawl, but I have found that marginal as well as more tricky to tune, YMMV. 

Tuning is a challenge with string walking because of the crawl. Apart for the limb imbalance, crawls create a dry-fire condition as the slack is taken up on the string before the arrow is pushed forward. I think most tune for the commonly shot distance for them. Obviously, this is easy for target. Field archery becomes a challenge. 

I totally agree with heavier bows for hunting.


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## OverAnalytical (11 mo ago)

I do run a positive tiller, so that would make perfect sense tbh. It was with an adjusted brace height, though it was hard to really find an 'optimum' with all the resonance. It was indeed much louder on the deeper crawls too, anchored to my jaw line.

I do like shooting from the cheekbone, it gives a nice clean view along the arrow and close gap - so ill try that out for stringwalking - with a change in tiller. I need to have long arrows anyway, anchored to the jaw/mouth i get [amo] draw of 32.25 - long arms / tall body.

Understood on the tuning front, that again makes perfect sense.

Really, the advice is much appreciated! Cheers


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

There's no upper limit to recurve draw weight. That only applies to compound. 
I would generally expect 20% above the heaviest limbs a company makes to be the maximum their flagship risers can take. Because that's limb bolts cranked down and a 30" draw. No one plans for a longer draw than that, at least not regularly.


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