# Line pulling?



## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

In the thread on cheating prevention some one mentioned line pulling. I was hoping someone would explain it. I think I know, but best not to assume, so I'm asking. It is hard to keep everyone honest if you don't know what to look for.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Arrows will pull the foam due to friction. Close shots can actually pull the ring into the arrow hole(friction), thus touching where a lubed arrow would not. However I don't see this as cheating.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Touching is touching...I don't care if it pulled the line half an inch (which is one heck of a stretch - pun intended) if the line touches it touches !


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The arrow going into the target stretches the surface foam, making the line wider at that tangent point. It actually stretches enough to touch the shaft. Line pulling. Count the higher score. Not cheating.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Here you go.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Also note, that when you pull your arrow out, the foam will relax and be round again.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I love a good line pull.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Padgett said:


> I love a good line pull.


I've drug a few about 1/4" before.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Ok, thanks guys. That is not what I thought. Now I'm glad I asked. And I agree, that's not cheating. Now I'm chomping at the bit to go shoot more. Hand surgery has had me out for weeks and I miss my bows. Thanks again.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It helps to shoot with some experienced asa type guys and you can learn about:

1. Line pulling

2. Meat

3. Connector area

You just have to spend enough time shooting with good shooters so that you can see all of the different things that can happen and then you can become a solid arrow caller. Not only is it important to learn how to call correctly but how to present yourself in a positive way to make sure that everyone in the group gets the score that they deserve. 

Just this weekend at Paris I was on a super tough course on day one and I had three different times where a shooter in my group could have been given a 5 if I had been the kind of guy that wanted to push for it. Their arrows were on the outside looking in at the 8 line and there was no meat between the arrow and the line and I could have easily took the stand to push for a 5 call. I have seen guys do this so many times in the past and if they gang up on a group they can really affect the outcome but by working on your ability to be a good group member and do the right thing things work out.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Thanks guys. I've only spent a few weeks shooting an indoor league, and it's pretty informal. Just had hand surgery, so am on forced down time at the moment. Really want to get back to shooting.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Please note that an arrow can and will often "pull the line" and still NOT get the higher score. The "pulled line" must touch the arrow for a higher score. I've heard people argue for a higher score just because "the line is pulled". The arrow must be touching the line and NOT just pull the line for the higher score!

More than once I've had to say, "Yes, it pulls the line but the shaft still is not touching the line".


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Generally on arrows that are real close but appear to not be touching the line I study every angle to be absolutely sure it is NOT touching. I am not looking to call an arrow "out" but rather looking to be sure that it is in fact NOT "touching". I've had people tell me, "if you have to look that close then it's in". Sorry but I believe that is just an excuse to make very "loose" calls. 

By the way, you have to get down and look under arrows that hit at 12 o'clock above a ring. Too often when standing directly above an arrow we "assume" it is touching but when you look under it often you will find it is clearly above the line. I try to make accurate calls and not simply generous calls.

I think it helps a newbie if they understand that if it's touching the line it's touching the line whether the line is pulled or not isn't relevant. The toughest calls are when the arrow is in an area that is shot out. Just because the area is shot out does not mean every arrow in that general area gets the higher score. This is all too often when you get quick and immediate pressure before really even looking at the arrow to make the higher call.

At times I've had a sense that the arrow caller is leaning towards being "tight" on one or two members in the group. That's when I quickly step in to make calls or quickly ask someone else to take a look. When you sense the "caller" is tightening up please quietly step in! In an important tournament I prefer that no one single person make all the calls. I don't want to feel obligated to hurry to every target for two days to make all the calls and to pull all the arrows so I certainly don't want anyone else to do it. 

When someone, by his actions more than words, seems to be insisting on getting to the target quickly and making every call I tend to be more watchful. Probably just my suspicious nature coming out! But I've had guys try to tighten up on the guy that starts getting ahead of them. I am NOT saying that they are consciously cheating!!!!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

That was a great description of some of the things that a strong shooter like Kstigall can teach when it comes to being a very good group member and some of the other issues that come up such as a shot out portion of the target. I shot 3d for years and simply knew nothing until I got a semi pro asa guy in my local group and he taught me so many different ways to look at the arrow calling and it amazed me how poor I was at it.

One of the things that I have been doing a much better job of in the last year is quickly giving my thoughts on why a arrow is "In" or "Out", in the past I would just say we need to take a look at this arrow or I would get quiet and back off and force someone else to take a look but I noticed so many times that he would make a decision and never consider my point of view on the arrow because I never gave him my thoughts. So, here is a example of some of my go to comments to give my group what I am seeing:

1. The line is a fresh one and there is 1/16 of meat between the arrow and the line so I believe it is out. 

2. The line is torn and from the left the arrow is out and has meat but the line runs directly into the arrow on the left side so it is in.

3. Guys, There is a huge line pull at this arrow but there is still meat so I believe it is out.

4. hey, he shot into the pie area on the edge of the connector area. When I bring the connector line from the 12 down to the 10 ring he is touching right there. It is in.

5. Guys, there is simply no meat between that arrow and the line at all. We need to call it in.

In my group this weekend in paris texas another guy took the lead and was the primary arrow caller and anytime he backed off because something that was close I got right over there and made a call and gave a quick little comment like the ones above and most of the time it was exactly what he was seeing and we could move on to the next arrow.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In kstigalls first paragraph he talks about a arrow appearing to touch but not actually touching, right here is where "MEAT" becomes such of a important term and way to really clear up things. If you have never looked at arrow calling while using the concept of meat you have got to start doing it because it simplifies the process so much. You look and if there is meat between the arrow and the line it is out if there is no meat between the arrow and the line it is in. Meat has nothing to do with the line being pulled or breaking the line, meat is something that you can easily attach a 1/16 inch of meat type of description to it by saying "there is a good 1/8 or 1/16 inch of meat on the arrow right there. or you can say "dang, there is slightly less than 1/16 of meat but I can still see it so the arrow is just out". 

The really fun ones are the ones where there is absolutely no line pull at all and the 12 ring or 10 ring is right there and the arrow is just next to the line and there is simply no meat at all. "That arrow is simply in because there is no meat", that is exactly the way I present the argument.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> Generally on arrows that are real close but appear to not be touching the line I study every angle to be absolutely sure it is NOT touching. I am not looking to call an arrow "out" but rather looking to be sure that it is in fact NOT "touching". I've had people tell me, "if you have to look that close then it's in". Sorry but I believe that is just an excuse to make very "loose" calls.
> 
> By the way, you have to get down and look under arrows that hit at 12 o'clock above a ring. Too often when standing directly above an arrow we "assume" it is touching but when you look under it often you will find it is clearly above the line. I try to make accurate calls and not simply generous calls.
> 
> ...


all good points!


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Thanks guys, that was very helpful.


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## 48archer (Mar 19, 2009)

Wouldn't it be nice if the companies that make the foam targets couldn't cut the lines in the targets a little thinner or more precise just so we could eliminate some of this bs.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Imagine being in a 3d group with Sanders and Obama and Trump and Cruz, the problem isn't the target or the arrow position it is the human factor.

That is why having the things well defined like Meat that help things go smoothly.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I don't care who's side you're on, that is so true!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

48archer said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if the companies that make the foam targets couldn't cut the lines in the targets a little thinner or more precise just so we could eliminate some of this bs.


Well no matter what you do there are going to be "tough" calls. When six fat shafts slam into the area of the 12 ring you can have tough calls to make and after 30+ groups of 5-6 archers have shot you should be expecting some serious arrow location evaluation will have to take place. 

Now if you happen to be in a group that for the most part everyone "hopes" to just get a ten arrow calls are generally more obvious. I don't care what the target is made of or how the rings are defined a group of 6 good 3D'ers is going to have a lot of arrows in, on, around and next to the 12 ring.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

If the lines were thinner, we would just have to wait even longer for people to focus their binos.


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## 48archer (Mar 19, 2009)

Halfcawkt said:


> If the lines were thinner, we would just have to wait even longer for people to focus their binos.


I never gave that a thought...lol


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Halfcawkt said:


> If the lines were thinner, we would just have to wait even longer for people to focus their binos.


You could get there early, go out 1st and shoot as fast as you can so you don't have to wait.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

So let's clarify the arrow that hits in a huge hole, hole is inside and outside of the twelve. I've had guys take score cards and bend them to the shape of the scoring ring but i thought that was a no no. I had one called out on a 14 ring when they were in play that would have given me a win instead of third. Right in the middle of the hole, no foam within 1/4 inch of the arrow, they did the old fold the card thing and determined based on that, out by 1/16.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Well shoot, that one is rough. I know I would have been pretty hot. Why would that score card trick be frowned upon?


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Dealing with a large hole is tough. You don't get any type of true indication of where the arrow actually impacted the target. Since the inside of the holes shape will have can impact on how the arrow came to rest. 

I'm pretty generous when it comes to a hole.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

Garceau said:


> Dealing with a large hole is tough. You don't get any type of true indication of where the arrow actually impacted the target. Since the inside of the holes shape will have can impact on how the arrow came to rest.
> 
> I'm pretty generous when it comes to a hole.


I agree but the guy calling arrows didn't. I asked him how many rings on any of these targets are as neat and clean as the edge of a score card, he didn't have an answer. For me it has to be obviously out to not give it to the shooter on a hole like that.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Garceau said:


> Dealing with a large hole is tough. You don't get any type of true indication of where the arrow actually impacted the target. Since the inside of the holes shape will have can impact on how the arrow came to rest.
> 
> I'm pretty generous when it comes to a hole.




Kevin is correct I can think of many times that a target has a large hole, at least 1/4 of the twelve gone. Most times if you hit even close to that hole you arrow is going to pull into it. Makes it extremely difficult to shoot a "solid" 12. Ive been fortunate to on the same page with the group and we have been very liberal as most should making an imaginary line where the 12 was. Becomes even more tricky when there is 3-4 arrows in that hole.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

I agree with some of what was posted. But I take a good look at each arrow. that being said if I see Its IN I don't keep looking around the arrow to see it out. At any point I see its IN that's my call done. That's where the confusion of saying "if you have to look that hard it should be in" comes from. Are you looking hard to call it in or call it out! There are no gimme calls everyone deserves a fair call but we are human and everyone sees things different.
Been with guys that call real easy and real tight. Usually can tell by target 2 how people are going to call in a group.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

While using a card bent around the arrow may seem ok, can it be done without touching the arrow? Arrows must be scored before touching.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

A card is only used as a shade to change the lighting. Cannot be used to make a line where the 12 was or should be. You are correct arrows shouldn't be touched. scores need to be on paper before being touched.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

If I am certain that an arrow that is in a hole would NOT be touching if the line existed then I have no problem calling it "out". I do _not_ try to determine if the line would have been pulled to touch the shaft. If your arrow is in a shot out hole it better be close to an imaginary 12 ring or it's NOT a 12. 

A couple of years ago a guy got seriously bent _before_ shooting a target because he said if he put the arrow in the "hole" it would be a 12. I thought it odd he would announce such before we were even at the stake. So I looked through binos and saw that most of the hole was clearly well outside of any existing or imaginary 12 ring. I'd say the middle of the hole was clearly a good .5" from an imaginary 12 ring. I simply said if the arrow is clearly NOT near the 12 ring it can't be a 12. He about erupted and a couple of other guys said "if it's clearly not near the 12 it won't be scored a 12". I quickly suggested we shoot the arrows before scoring them...... Needless to say the guy that was creating an ugly situation for zero reason put his arrow no where near the hole or the 12 so it was a non-issue. If I remember correctly one arrow went in the hole and it WAS scored a 12. I can not remember if it was clearly in the 12 or if it was such that we could not call it out......either way it was scored a 12.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This kind of stuff is way less of a problem when the courses are challenging, when the courses are easy then 3 to 5 of the shots will be in or around the 12 ring all day long and the number of line calls just goes through the roof. When the course is a tough one it just opens up the groups and you have way less of a problem. Especially with the large holes forming in the connector area of the 12 ring.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

We had one target in Paris where a gentleman lobbied _very _hard for a 12 but he received an 8. IF it had been a 10 it would have been a 12. I think we handled it very well though tension did build to a fairly high level. None of the five us gave in _or_ got confrontational with the shooter. It's important to NOT be confrontational when an archer suddenly realizes he is dropping points rather than gaining points! We did not back off calling it an 8 but at the same time no one got in the shooters face. No one apologized but rather we each just gently said, "it's out".

His arrow was in a hole directly below the 12. It was clearly a good 1/8" below where the 12 ring would have, could have or should have been. If his arrow would have been just a bit higher we could _not _have called it anything but a 12. But it was out........


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## Eliteshooter99 (Apr 1, 2016)

just gotta oull the out side


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## wildbilljp (Jan 25, 2016)

OK, just sat here and read every single thread comment about scoring arrows. I have never shot in a 3 D shoot although I have shot a couple of 3D ranges and have been considering entering a shoot. Sounds like an "official" unbiased scorer could be used in some situations. I wouldn't want someone "IN" the same competition I'm in making a call that moves me from1st to 3rd. Especially If _ or others in the group don't agree with the call._


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## Uzurmnd247 (Jun 1, 2009)

I believe myself to be very fair in this situation. As people will and do hold it against you if you have a close call. I always say, make a better shot and it won't be an issue. I have shot under a bunch of 12's and taken 8's. dropping down a 1/8 to a 1/4" under 4--12's will ruin your day! That's 16 points given up. Then again, I don't practice a lot. I know that you only get out of something what you put into it.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

wildbilljp said:


> OK, just sat here and read every single thread comment about scoring arrows. I have never shot in a 3 D shoot although I have shot a couple of 3D ranges and have been considering entering a shoot. Sounds like an "official" unbiased scorer could be used in some situations. I wouldn't want someone "IN" the same competition I'm in making a call that moves me from1st to 3rd. Especially If _ or others in the group don't agree with the call._


_

it normally comes down to a majority rules situation, one person don't have the authority to control arrow calls._


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

I am the king of 1/2 in low on the bottom 12. Pick up a bunch of 8's that way. Someday it will all come together.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

vito9999 said:


> I am the king of 1/2 in low on the bottom 12. Pick up a bunch of 8's that way. Someday it will all come together.


Shoot at the uppers......then if like me you will be a half inch out the top


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm just going to ask Bernie Sanders to give me some of your 12's since I don't have as many as you guys.


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## derwet (Jun 3, 2014)

wildbilljp said:


> OK, just sat here and read every single thread comment about scoring arrows. I have never shot in a 3 D shoot although I have shot a couple of 3D ranges and have been considering entering a shoot. Sounds like an "official" unbiased scorer could be used in some situations. I wouldn't want someone "IN" the same competition I'm in making a call that moves me from1st to 3rd. Especially If _ or others in the group don't agree with the call._


_

It wouldn't take long to find out that most of the folks you would shoot with at an ASA shoot tend to have quite a bit of integrity. Yeah, you'll meet a couple of turds along the way but for the most part everyone I've encountered has been fair and honest. And, there are differences to the way folks call arrows with line pulling. I'm if the persuasion that the arrow either touches/cuts the line or it is out because that's what the rules dictate. Not everybody sees it that way. I have once been at an ASA where 3 of the 5 fellas I shot with scored the arrows higher if the arrow pulled the line. They were a majority. In cases like that, the best you can do is to ensure continuity, in that all arrows are scored the same way throughout the whole round. Because, I have shot with a couple who would like to have had their arrow scored a 12 because it pulled the line, but did not want to give the same ruling to another shooter._


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

We go by the 100% rule. If you/group are 100% sure it is out then the shooter gets the lower score. If you are 99% sure it is out then the shooter gets the higher score.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Garceau said:


> Shoot at the uppers......then if like me you will be a half inch out the top




We need to shoot together, we will mess everyone up shooting behind us.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

vito9999 said:


> We need to shoot together, we will mess everyone up shooting behind us.


I call upper quite a bit when I shoot unknown. 

When known very few times really.


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## dartonpro4000 (Oct 12, 2010)

Where is this ASA rule about the arrow being a dimes width from the line. I keep hearing this at Asa qualifiers. I am being told that if you cannot fit a dime between the arrow and the line then you get the higher point. Now I have seen arrows this close and not be touching the line. I score honestly and if it doesn't break the line or touch it in any way then you got the lower score. That's just my opinion. If there is a rule like this then I have lost 4-8 points every shoot this year!


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

This year I purchased a hi intensity light. It's a TotaLohan . It is small and I use it during the arrow scoring process. The bright light illuminates the arrow shaft and animal and has made scoring much easier with 
a minimum of controversy. It is ok in the ASA to use a light during scoring. I got the ok from Dee via E-mail.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

derrickman140 said:


> Where is this ASA rule about the arrow being a dimes width from the line. I keep hearing this at Asa qualifiers. I am being told that if you cannot fit a dime between the arrow and the line then you get the higher point. Now I have seen arrows this close and not be touching the line. I score honestly and if it doesn't break the line or touch it in any way then you got the lower score. That's just my opinion. If there is a rule like this then I have lost 4-8 points every shoot this year!


i think that's called the "close enough" rule that we all know is BS. I agree with you its either touching or it isn't.


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## Hang 'em High (Feb 16, 2011)

What about pushing a line? Arrow is clearly occupying space the line used but is not touching the line, this would be considered in correct?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

derrickman140 said:


> Where is this ASA rule about the arrow being a dimes width from the line. I keep hearing this at Asa qualifiers. I am being told that if you cannot fit a dime between the arrow and the line then you get the higher point. Now I have seen arrows this close and not be touching the line. I score honestly and if it doesn't break the line or touch it in any way then you got the lower score. That's just my opinion. If there is a rule like this then I have lost 4-8 points every shoot this year!


That is total BS and the next time someone says that you should tell them exactly that!



Hang 'em High said:


> What about pushing a line? Arrow is clearly occupying space the line used but is not touching the line, this would be considered in correct?


The arrow does not actually have to "touch the line". If the arrow is occupying the space where the line is supposed to be then it is scored the higher score. An arrow can "push the line" AND not get the higher score! This is the same thing as pulling the line where an arrow can "pull the line" and still not get the higher score.

It is more rare to "push the line" and not get the higher score than it is to "pull the line" and not get the higher score. Pulling the line but still not touching the line happens frequently resulting in the lower score.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's pretty simple, the arrow has to touch the line to get the score.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> It's pretty simple, the arrow has to touch the line to get the score.


Unless it's in a big hole where a line once was but is now shot out, right?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

shootstraight said:


> Unless it's in a big hole where a line once was but is now shot out, right?


Yep. Bad target, gets a little more complicated, but should be scored fairly as possible.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

shootstraight said:


> Unless it's in a big hole where a line once was but is now shot out, right?


In this case there has to be some grace to the shooter. How can anyone possible make a "close" call when there is no line to go by. Now if the group decides that the arrow would not have been touching the line if the line was there, OK that arrow is out.


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## Tincup61 (Oct 9, 2012)

Garceau said:


> I call upper quite a bit when I shoot unknown.
> 
> When known very few times really.


I'm just the opposite. I like to call uppers on known. I add yardage and aim at the center.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Tincup61 said:


> I'm just the opposite. I like to call uppers on known. I add yardage and aim at the center.


I add and subtract yardage all day based on what I can see on the target, other arrows/shadows/holes etc.

In unknown I have a strategy which employees me calling the upper quite a bit. I generally don't hit it.....but I wont hit low for an 8 - if ya know what I am saying


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## dk_ace1 (Mar 31, 2015)

This has been an interesting read. In my local shoots, I haven't been involved in calling the shots because I wasn't sure I understood the rules. After this thread, I'm entering the discussion. It seems like lately people are looking for any, even silly, reason to call arrows in. I'm more of the mind that if you want the reward of a 12, you actually need to hit the 12...

Last week, I was the benefit of a call or two that I didn't think was right. One arrow specifically looked out to me but they all agreed it was in because it was pulling the line. I know I didn't hit that line though, there was clearly meat between my arrow and the line. They were calling everything that way though and they were all more experienced than me so I didn't argue. Now that I understand what the rules really are, I'm going to start speaking up. 

Two shoots ago, a guy in my group shot phenomenally. He argued hard to talk the group into a 12 call that was clearly an 8 IMO. It was an awesome score regardless of that one call, but since he got the higher call that I was sure (and most of the group was too) that he didn't deserve it really tarnished the score IMO. I'd rather get the score I actually earned. If I think it's too low, the problem with that is staring back at me when I look in the mirror.

D


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## Tincup61 (Oct 9, 2012)

Garceau said:


> I add and subtract yardage all day based on what I can see on the target, other arrows/shadows/holes etc.
> 
> In unknown I have a strategy which employees me calling the upper quite a bit. I generally don't hit it.....but I wont hit low for an 8 - if ya know what I am saying


I'm with you 100% At the classic last year every 12 I shot was on 40 + yard targets. Literally Every 8 was under 30. This year in Paris I shot just over the top of some easy 12s but I didn't shoot out the bottom. If 1 safety yard was good 3 was even better:dancing:


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

dk_ace1 said:


> This has been an interesting read. In my local shoots, I haven't been involved in calling the shots because I wasn't sure I understood the rules. After this thread, I'm entering the discussion. It seems like lately people are looking for any, even silly, reason to call arrows in. I'm more of the mind that if you want the reward of a 12, you actually need to hit the 12...
> 
> Last week, I was the benefit of a call or two that I didn't think was right. One arrow specifically looked out to me but they all agreed it was in because it was pulling the line. I know I didn't hit that line though, there was clearly meat between my arrow and the line. They were calling everything that way though and they were all more experienced than me so I didn't argue. Now that I understand what the rules really are, I'm going to start speaking up.
> 
> ...


who said you don't need to hit the 12 to score a 12


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## jaydub (May 16, 2008)

If the cores would be changed on sunday, a lot of these tough calls could be simplified, especially in the case of the gaping holes. 
The targets on the k45 range in foley were rough from the start. 
And in texas, we shot behind the k50 guys who were all on a roll. 
I can't think of a reason (other than $) that we can't all start with a clean core.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

jaydub said:


> If the cores would be changed on sunday, a lot of these tough calls could be simplified, especially in the case of the gaping holes.
> The targets on the k45 range in foley were rough from the start.
> And in texas, we shot behind the k50 guys who were all on a roll.
> I can't think of a reason (other than $) that we can't all start with a clean core.
> ...


Also more time and man power which is actually just more money.


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