# High Draw Injuries



## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

I saw that too. I do a draw similar, but string fingers at about eye level. The phot seems to be exaggerated. 
Another experienced archer/coach advocated for the High Draw method. At any rate, it says warning to new shooters. Being a old coot, I reckon it doesn't pertain to me! However, the so called High Draw seems to be effective at "setting" my bow shoulder and has been beneficial to consistency. 
The only thing bothering me currently is tendonitis in the left elbow....brought on my taking golf back up recently.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

It's like anything else Archery. You need to be taught correctly. Although Jake has a wealth of knowledge, I don't think he fully understands the mechanics of the high draw. And just like a horizontal draw. It's not fir everyone.



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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

I used Arne Moe's videos when first starting out (Thanks Arne!). So that style has become ingrained. But, I do like Jake's videos. They have been very helpful in refining things. Below is a screen grab from one of Arne's videos, and right or wrong, this is pretty much they way I draw.


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## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

I draw in a similar fashion as the screen grab, not overly high, and hands at same elevation. I have an old high school rotator cuff injury, must have a little scar tissue because if I get the draw wrong (too low especially) I feel it.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I haven’t seen the videos yet, so I can’t comment on what he said, but I’ve injured myself with a long term shoulder injury using the NTS, and I’ve never suffered an injury to my shooting muscles using a high draw. 

Must remember that Jake has been ingrained with Lee’s system and his thought process; and we all know (if you have listened to any of Lee’s talks) that Lee believes every other method of archery outside of the KSL system is more injury proned.

From my experience, although antidotal, the high draw is the most efficient method of drawing for us long armed folks; because the string never leaves your body’s frame. When I used the NTS method, I received a stress injury of my bowarm’s deltoid. I believe the reason I got it was due to when drawing angular you are pulling the string initially away from your frame, which puts IMO undue stress to the bow arm’s deltoid. 

I must point out though that I started archery late in my life so when I started using the NTS method, I was in my late 40s.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Chris Hill had a seminar in Las Vegas that details the high draw and how it leverages the body. This link starts at 1:21:21, but I would watch the whole thing when have time. Even if you don't use this technique, it gives you some insight to how the Korean archers are trained.






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## oapmeek (May 9, 2017)

States at the start that a high draw is bad, then goes on to explain that the reason for injuries is slouched posture and over-reaching on set-up. The last two points are perfectly valid, but don't relate to a high draw. See Ash Morgan's or Chris Hill's material for excellent explanations of a high-ish linear draw technique.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Lots of evidence to support any kind of draw one wants to support. 
Korean draw

Olympic Gold draw 
Olympic Gold draw

Brady draw 
Brady Draw

Some teachers are 'inclusivists' (nuanced, can see benefits to various methods, allow for individual adaptations). Some are 'exclusivists' (my way or the highway, only one right way). Inclusivists might take a little longer to get the subject brightly lit, but the illumination is more informative and sticks.


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## txarcher5 (Jan 8, 2018)

I would add that it also depends on your draw weight. I used a high-draw for sometime without issues with lower weight (~34#s) but when I moved to 40# my shoulder started to hurt right away. So I do agree partially with Jake's comments. This summer I lowered my draw to eye-level and found I can engage the back muscles better. Your mileage may vary


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Jake's two videos reminds me of Griv trying to show how the linear shot is done in a video with Sjef. Incorrect linear technique done poorly and then used as a reason for why NTS is better.

Chris


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

He is right when he talks about possible issues at string hand shoulder due to high elbow while drawing. If it is wrong explained or copied without understanding the archer will get injured easier than drawing with his elbow ~ level with his shoulder (aka string hand level of the eyes) especially with higher draw weights. In all the video samples, the travel of the elbow to maximum draw weight happens with the elbow ~ at level with the shoulders while in his video he goes directly from "above eye level" to the anchor (something a self-taught archer will do using monkey-see-monkey-do learning and will hurt himself)
I see these videos mostly addressed to self-taught archers who might mimic without being taught, not necessary as promoting a "system".


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

In the video he explains the rational regarding impingement issues with the shoulder in the subacromial space as the high draw closes this up and a low draw leave it more open. Logically things can be accomodated (tendon and muscle movement) better with the space more open. If you have a high draw and it works then you risk injury as some point or maybe never.. But for people (ME) with both bow and draw shoulder problems the high draw is an invitation to dance with the devil. I set my bow shoulder low, keep it low and aligned and raise the bow as I draw to anchor..I do use more of a straight draw than the NTS method. The video works for me as does his video on bicept pressure to keep from plucking the string.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

A little understanding of how the shoulder works goes a long way to clarifying the matter. The closing of the SA space occurs when the humerus is lifted while keeping the scapula low. There is a basic principle about shoulder motion that the scapula follows the humerus. If you let that happen and maintain general flexibility and strength in the rotator cuff, injuries can be less likely. As I have said before, expansion occurs through depression of the scapula. If you let it rise with the draw arm and let the arm and scapula drop together everything works with less stress. Jake is correct about executing with more of the lower back, but you have to allow the scapula to rise before it can move back down.

Personally I think linear vs NTS is a pointless debate. You can create injuries with any system. Minimizing stress that compresses tissues such as the tendons passing over the shoulder and the bursae in the shoulder is what we should be paying attention to in order to shoot with less risk of injury.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

lcaillo said:


> As I have said before, expansion occurs through depression of the scapula. If you let it rise with the draw arm and let the arm and scapula drop together everything works with less stress. Jake is correct about executing with more of the lower back, but you have to allow the scapula to rise before it can move back down.


The question is how much rise in the scapula? The high draw really puts it up there does it need that much of a rise? I tend to use a high elbow on the draw hand- a bit higher than parallel with the arrow - and maybe that helps raise my scapula up just enuf-- I know that if I don't get the mechanics right I hear about it all night.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

The answer is let it follow the humerus and move up as far as it wants without excess strain or effort. If you start too high with the shoulder you have less mechanical advantage to draw and it is more effortful. If you try to keep the scapula down during draw with the elbow raised you can create impingement. I suspect that this comes from trying to set back tension too early in many cases. The transfer to the back should be as natural and effortless as possible and the shift downward in the scapula should finish the shot, not start it.

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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

While drawing a bow is not something humans may have evolved to do, we can still take advantage of what the body affords and avoid injury by recognizing how it works efficiently and what combinations of movements it does not like. Figuring out how to map an efficient and consistent shot motion to what the body can and can't do takes both individual awareness and a small amount of anatomical knowledge, particularly on the part of coaches. The shot should feel effortless and we should be focused on the essential question, "what can we get for free from the system." However, what feels less effortful to begin with may be influenced by using muscles that are stronger and developed for other purposes than archery. Finding the right coordination requires focus on the motion without excessive force. In other words mimicry or very low draw weight when learning.

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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

One other problem with high draw-- it has to be done correctly to be safe. Sky draws happen with high draws if not careful, like the guy at a local range with a compound-- the arrow is still stuck in the ceiling.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

woof156 said:


> One other problem with high draw-- it has to be done correctly to be safe. Sky draws happen with high draws if not careful, like the guy at a local range with a compound-- the arrow is still stuck in the ceiling.


High draw is not a what you guys are calling a sky draw. There is a big difference between the two. In all reality the best term IMO for the drawing motion is a high angular draw vs. a low angular draw. 


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

All drawing motions have angular motion at the shoulder. Jake and NTS say it should be in the horizontal plane. This seems to have created much misunderstanding and injury of it's own. They key to minimizing stress on the body is to find the most advantageous angle at which to execute the motion and use the most efficient coordination of muscles. I would not assume that limiting motion to one plane has any relationship to efficiency of movement. I also have to take issue with the term linear. There is always angular motion in the draw. While I mostly agree with what Chris is trying to teach, I don't think angular vs linear is meaningful terminology. 

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## Chaoscreature (Jan 5, 2020)

The posture and form is very different from target archery, but if you watch guys like Joe Gibbs and Simon Stanley shooting warbows or longbows they both use what I would call a "sky draw".
I am sure they have both accidentally sent a 1,500 grain dowel up into the air more than once, and they trained for years to develop the muscles required to draw such heavy bows without having a hernia.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

lcaillo said:


> All drawing motions have angular motion at the shoulder. Jake and NTS say it should be in the horizontal plane. This seems to have created much misunderstanding and injury of it's own. They key to minimizing stress on the body is to find the most advantageous angle at which to execute the motion and use the most efficient coordination of muscles. I would not assume that limiting motion to one plane has any relationship to efficiency of movement. I also have to take issue with the term linear. There is always angular motion in the draw. While I mostly agree with what Chris is trying to teach, I don't think angular vs linear is meaningful terminology.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I would have to agree. Once I was ask to see if the late great archer and coach Hardy Ward would write an article about the linear draw used in the Orient, and he told me that no one has used a “linear” draw in 40 or 50 years. 

What he taught us in a seminar he taught was the draws are broken down into supinating and pronating drawing motions. 


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Chaoscreature said:


> The posture and form is very different from target archery, but if you watch guys like Joe Gibbs and Simon Stanley shooting warbows or longbows they both use what I would call a "sky draw".
> I am sure they have both accidentally sent a 1,500 grain dowel up into the air more than once, and they trained for years to develop the muscles required to draw such heavy bows without having a hernia.


I had to go ice both my shoulders just watching him draw this bow-- not a recommended draw cycle. The videos that followed were good as well including the medieval armour vs the warbow..


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Jake would have you believe that NTS angular draw is the 'best' way. But the rest of the world has disagreed for the last 15 years. 

Yeah, what does she know? Ki Bo Bae
Notice how at the beginning of her draw, she's released her draw shoulder up and back, to get her pushing/pulling forces 'in line' and engage her back at the beginning of the draw (muscles that start in charge want to stay in charge).

And here is a variation - Kim Woo Jin . Kim Woo Jin draw
Notice how at the beginning of the draw, he releases his draw shoulder slightly up and back behind him (but much less dramatically high with his draw hand), so that as he begins his draw his pushing/pulling forces are almost completely 'in line' at the beginning so he can engage his back at the beginning of the draw (muscles that start in charge want to stay in charge). 

Who are the best archers in the world? There are literally dozens and dozens of videos on youtube showing Koreans drawing in a like manner to Ki Bo Bae. Notice I didn't say 'exact carbon copy' manner. Each 'body' has to work off an organizing principle and then make tweaks to accommodate physiological differences/limitations from one archer to another. 

From Day One, Jake has been a low draw archer. It's his natural instinct/solution, which is fine. His mistake is in trying to expand his personal predilection to a universal principle. While Jake has been a great archer for the USA (yay!), I'd rather aspire to the ballet-like clean straight line of Kim Woo Jin, rather than the head cocked, rolled shoulder, hand shooting athletic Jake.


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## Garrus (Jul 25, 2019)

lksseven said:


> Jake would have you believe that NTS angular draw is the 'best' way. But the rest of the world has disagreed for the last 15 years.
> 
> Yeah, what does she know? Ki Bo Bae
> Notice how at the beginning of her draw, she's released her draw shoulder up and back, to get her pushing/pulling forces 'in line' and engage her back at the beginning of the draw (muscles that start in charge want to stay in charge).
> ...


Yes, the variations are very noticeable, especially for the korean men, for the woman, most of them shoot kinda similar, the most different one is Jeon Ina (I think) open Stance with a low elbow. I even commented this on Chris Seminar video.




























I currently shooting similar to this korean lady, not so high, but also not low. I feel more comfortable shooting like this, but will see in time. (I have hyper kyphosis / hunchback)


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

lksseven said:


> His mistake is in trying to expand his personal predilection to a universal principle.


No, his single mistake is saying what he thinks and this is not accepted in the community he left.
This is the "reality" in any "niche activity": the student will preach what his teacher taught him. He had success with NTS, I see no reason to say other things than what is he saying. But disregarding this, he is not completely wrong either. He made a video for "nobodies" and it is judged by "somebody"'s standards.

PS
nobodies - youtube viewers
somebodies - archery champions


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

As I have said many times normalizing the language on correct anatomy and understanding just a little about how the parts of the upper body work together would puta lot of the controversy to bed. The fact that something like a fictional body part is substituted for actual knowledge is indicative of the problem.

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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

Personally I can feel the “impingement” Jake talks about, not when I raise or lower my draw arm, but when my elbow gets above the line of the arrow, or above my hook. I do this when I start to get tired sometimes. I get lazy with my set position and start to draw the bow at a downward angle and then as I lift up I realize something in my shoulder is not in a good position. It almost feels out of socket - I know it’s not. When I keep my set and setup positions in line with the target and my draw arm shoulder, nothing weird. Shoulder feels stable. That’s just me though. 


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is what Jake said (it's the title of his video/) .. "
*Why The High Draw is Bad For MOST Archers | Archery Shoulder Injury Prevention*

The word "MOST" makes this a broad sweeping statement that, without any compelling supporting data, begs to be questioned. And, at least my anecdotal observations, suggest that the higher, more traditional draw is far more common/popular technique around the world than is Coach Lee's NTS.

If he's said "some", not 'most', then who could argue with that?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

How someone can quantify MOST when he doesn't know his target segment? If his target segment is "maybe-I-will-give-it-a-try" archers, MOST is not a word to argue about. Without proper guidance you will hurt yourself. Arguing about semantics and click-bait is nice in day off though.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I am hesitant to criticize Jake, because I have worked with him and had discussions with him about what he is trying to do. He is sharing his experience and that is considerable. He makes the mistake of not establishing the context and qualifying the audience that many make, and you have to take his stuff for what it is and where he came from. Considering the amount of information he shares, he does a pretty good job of making it meaningful and useful to a lot of people. The few things he says that are controversial need to be taking in that perspective, IMNSHO.

That said, the NTS/Lee method of keeping the draw in the horizontal plane did not work for me. I came back to archery after a 2 decade hiatus and left because of problems in both shoulders from poor form. Along the way I studied biomechanics and learned what I needed to do differently. I tried to reconcile NTS with that but not all of it fit. I think that there is a lot right about NTS, but just as much that is either useless, poorly understood, or just plain bad assumptions.

The bottom line is that one needs to find what works most effortlessly and without pain for themselves and their students, recognizing the large individual differences and not assuming too much about any one system being right or wrong for everyone. Understanding how the body works can make that easier, but being responsive to the individual is essential.

And by the way, when Jake worked with me, he did not try to change me to an NTS acceptable motion. He gave me at least a half dozen ideas that I might work on (and all great suggestions) based on where I am and what I have found works for me or not. He may promote NTS a bit more publicly than I think is wise, but in coaching he does exactly what I have suggested is important. He recognizes where someone is and looks for ways to move them to their goals, but does not try to remake them according to some arbitrary ideal. His problem IMO is that he lacks the language to communicate what good technique is in general and relies on his experience, which is with NTS and coach Lee. In that sense he is no different than many other American archer coaches. Among them I think he rates pretty highly and I will consult him again.


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## ThatGuy4x5 (Dec 21, 2013)

Gregjlongbow said:


> Personally I can feel the “impingement” Jake talks about, not when I raise or lower my draw arm, but when my elbow gets above the line of the arrow, or above my hook. I do this when I start to get tired sometimes. I get lazy with my set position and start to draw the bow at a downward angle and then as I lift up I realize something in my shoulder is not in a good position. It almost feels out of socket - I know it’s not. When I keep my set and setup positions in line with the target and my draw arm shoulder, nothing weird. Shoulder feels stable. That’s just me though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. The “proper setup” has definitely help to avoid these issues. Especially in the draw shoulder.


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## Kevinc1953 (Jul 2, 2020)

If my back elbow is even a little bit high 2/3 of the way to full draw it lets me know about it right away. If I am lazy at let that happen more than a couple times in a session I’m going to have to take the next day off. The joys of getting older


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Why does impingement occur? It is the closing of the space at the top of the shoulder. Let the scapula follow the humerus if you want to maximize that space. Lifting the elbow without letting the scapula rotate up will put pressure on that space. YOu also have to have flexibility and conditioning of the related tissues, but if you want to prevent impingement, you have to understand what causes it.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Draven Olary said:


> How someone can quantify MOST when he doesn't know his target segment? If his target segment is "maybe-I-will-give-it-a-try" archers, MOST is not a word to argue about. Without proper guidance you will hurt yourself. Arguing about semantics and click-bait is nice in day off though.


"Click bait"? What are you talking about? I'm not selling anything here, pal. 

The title of Jake's video that I referenced was "HIGH DRAW is Bad for MOST Archers" (the 'caps' are his, not mine). I agree, it would be much better if he had been more precise about 'what he meant by "MOST Archers". But he wasn't. SoI just took his words at face value - in which case I don't see how his statement isn't careless and/or inaccurate. For me, "most archers" means "the majority of archers who I personally see shooting in person, and the 'majority of archers who I see shooting in youtube videos of competitions'. 

But maybe, as you concocted, he actually meant "maybe he was only talking about archers who fit in the category of "maybe-I-will-give-it-a-try archers" who've never had instruction or shot before, or only 'male archers under 13', or only 'archers who are lefthanded and live in Florida' and we should have somehow known that. If I missed the memo, apologies.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> I am hesitant to criticize Jake, because I have worked with him and had discussions with him about what he is trying to do. He is sharing his experience and that is considerable. He makes the mistake of not establishing the context and qualifying the audience that many make, and you have to take his stuff for what it is and where he came from. Considering the amount of information he shares, he does a pretty good job of making it meaningful and useful to a lot of people. The few things he says that are controversial need to be taking in that perspective, IMNSHO.
> 
> That said, the NTS/Lee method of keeping the draw in the horizontal plane did not work for me. I came back to archery after a 2 decade hiatus and left because of problems in both shoulders from poor form. Along the way I studied biomechanics and learned what I needed to do differently. I tried to reconcile NTS with that but not all of it fit. I think that there is a lot right about NTS, but just as much that is either useless, poorly understood, or just plain bad assumptions.
> 
> ...


This is great to know, Leonard! Good for him.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

lksseven said:


> "Click bait"? What are you talking about? I'm not selling anything here, pal.
> 
> The title of Jake's video that I referenced was "HIGH DRAW is Bad for MOST Archers" (the 'caps' are his, not mine). I agree, it would be much better if he had been more precise about 'what he meant by "MOST Archers". But he wasn't. SoI just took his words at face value - in which case I don't see how his statement isn't careless and/or inaccurate. For me, "most archers" means "the majority of archers who I personally see shooting in person, and the 'majority of archers who I see shooting in youtube videos of competitions'.
> 
> But maybe, as you concocted, he actually meant "maybe he was only talking about archers who fit in the category of "maybe-I-will-give-it-a-try archers" who've never had instruction or shot before, or only 'male archers under 13', or only 'archers who are lefthanded and live in Florida' and we should have somehow known that. If I missed the memo, apologies.


The title of the video can be considered a clickbait, not you mate. Imagine the title as: "Why I consider high draw bad for archers?" Not same impact, and since youtube is rewarding the owner of a channel based on traffic etc, I don't think it was a wrong choice of words from this perspective.

There are different types of clickbait headlines and most of them play on things like curiosity, desire for resolution, desire for affirmation, along with various other emotions. There is an entire chapter in psychology regarding the advertising. The sentence triggered your reaction and curiosity for the rest of web surfers and fits in what I've said above, disregarding their archery skills.


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## Robert R (10 mo ago)

I tried the high draw once and will never try it again. Talk about a movement that goes against physiological principals. You have this relatively unstable joint (shoulder), and now move this heavy limb above it, and wait, you are also going to be pulling heavy weight on top of all that. Maybe it works for some, but definitely not for me.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

I started with a low draw, but I could not keep my bow shoulder down. I find the high draw (like the Koreans) easier to set the shoulder. I did like the book _Archery Anatomy_ by Ray Axford as it did discuss the variation of human anatomy and the implications--it did discuss high shoulder like mine and how the load can force the shoulder up.

I was also introduced to the open stance in the NTS method, not only am I not that flexible, it really works against field archery where targets change in elevation and the inflexibility the open stance creates in your core is not helpful.

I think there are a number of good source for archers on the internet. I enjoy Jake's videos and have gotten some good information from them. I also enjoy Ashe of the Online Archery Academy. I think he has some really useful perspective. Both have some less than perfect ideas, but none are not worth considering--usually they point to something, where the explanation is not that good.

Personally, I found getting into archery tricky as most base a lot of stuff based on "feel," which is not very useful as most beginners don't have enough experience to know what they should feel and this intuitive approach gives no handhold to reach the point archers get to. I have also found form that "feels" good, but not very efficient for archery. Also, there is little specifically for barebow because the form has not really been systematically developed--people keep taking about expansion, but that seem more of a solution for OR where you need to get through a clicker, than in barebow where you don't (just as an example). I am sure you can use expansion, I am just not sure that it is optimal, at least in terms presented for barebow.

But that is the great thing about the internet, you can always find something that appeals to you...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Hikari said:


> Also, there is little specifically for barebow because the form has not really been systematically developed--people keep taking about expansion, but that seem more of a solution for OR where you need to get through a clicker, than in barebow where you don't (just as an example). I am sure you can use expansion, I am just not sure that it is optimal, at least in terms presented for barebow.


I have more barebow students than Olympic recurve students for the past year or so, including a number of high level barebow archers. The linear shot i teach works very well with barebow form from beginner to world class. My name is bandied about in the barebow community as a good coach. I am sure i cant be the only one. 


I have taught expansion to barebow archers, but usually it is when they have difficulty figuring out when to shoot or want a trigger to shoot.

Chris


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## Robert R (10 mo ago)

Robert R said:


> I tried the high draw once and will never try it again. Talk about a movement that goes against physiological principals. You have this relatively unstable joint (shoulder), and now move this heavy limb above it, and wait, you are also going to be pulling heavy weight on top of all that. Maybe it works for some, but definitely not for me.


I feel like I should add some more information here in order to give my previous comment more substance. I am a brand new archer, and at the time of posting, I was frustrated because many of the You Tube "how to draw a bow" advice videos preach this high draw and when I tried it, my shoulder was definitely not happy. However, I spent a week doing shoulder and back exercises, specific for archery, and this morning while I was sighting in my bow, I did notice that having that back elbow up a bit makes it easier to draw. Now I definitely do not have my arm as high as some of these You Tube hot shots, but it's not a lateral draw. I would say its probably as high as my cheek. They say never say never.. haha. There you go.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Again, high draw is not a problem as long as the scapula rises with the humerus. The problems occur when the scapula is held low and the arm is lifted above the shoulder. 

Personally I have much more problems when trying to keep the motion in the horizontal plane.

The shoulders should start high and finish low to complete the shot, allowing true expansion at the shoulders and minimizing impingement. 


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## MooseisLoose (11 mo ago)

lcaillo said:


> Again, high draw is not a problem as long as the scapula rises with the humerus. The problems occur when the scapula is held low and the arm is lifted above the shoulder.
> 
> Personally I have much more problems when trying to keep the motion in the horizontal plane.
> 
> ...


If I draw according to the NTS system my draw side shoulder immediately hurts. Maybe 5 shots in. Something about that rotation on the horizontal plane just doesn't seem in accordance with human physiology, imo. I've always done the linear draw.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

MooseisLoose said:


> If I draw according to the NTS system my draw side shoulder immediately hurts. Maybe 5 shots in. Something about that rotation on the horizontal plane just doesn't seem in accordance with human physiology, imo. I've always done the linear draw.


I am the exact opposite tho I don't use the full rotation of NTS- I probably hit somewhere in between. I think forcing someone to adopt one or the other is not the best plan since, to some extent, we are all built differently and bring our own history of injuries to the sport. Both systems have seen success so adopt the one that makes your body and you the happiest....


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

As i said before, most videos I watch bashing linear or claiming it to be more injury prone are doing linear incorrectly, and then using that to show how NTS is better. 

If you like NTS and it works for you ....great. have at it. enjoy. 

I get plenty of students who come from NTS not working for them. I have great results with them changing over to linear. 

doesnt take much common sense to see what works for the masses from the top level to the bottom and it isnt NTS. 

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. But if people want the NTS route, more power to them.

Good luck with that. Enjoy. 

Archery is about enjoyment, right? 


Chris


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

The shoulder is a very complex set of tissues and bones and what one can do likely has a lot to do with what has been learned and trained. Changing systems is likely to put strain on something unless done very carefully. I recommend lots of flexibility training and a gradual shift if one is changing something. Gradual in terms of draw weight and number of arrows, that is, not some in-between motion unless one simply cannot make the motion desired.

And there are always individual differences in both anatomy, flexibility, and learned motions. Pain and injury can come from many ways if you are changing things so be reasonable when doing so.

I had to quit shooting for years because of shoulder issues, then learned why I was having problems when I went back to school and studied anatomy and biomechanics. Much of my problem was starting with low a shoulder and lifting the bowarm while the shoulder was held down. Now that I have started shooting again I have no problems at all, but have much better alignment and more efficient motion with less stress. Everyone has to find the place of least effort and least stress on the body. That can take time. I tried NTS when I came back to archery. I found some things that made sense and some that did not. The "branding" (as a coach that I respect called it) of various techniques is more of a problem with semantics than anything else. We should be focusing on what matters in terms of the anatomy and motion. I mostly draw from high to low in a manner closer to linear than NTS, but there is always an angular component to any method. You might call what I do a hybrid of push-pull, linear, and NTS.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

It’s worth saying that anyone trying to make major form changes should probably drop 5-10# while they learn the correct way to do whatever they’re doing.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

+1

My light limbs are really useful for working on new form changes.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I think this is where lots of injuries happen. When you make big changes in the motion around the shoulders and do not significantly reduce the weight you are likely to end up stressing tissues outside of their normal range. 

There is much to be said for extensive mimicry and very light training bows. One not only has to learn a new movement in the brain but must transition the body as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Vic used to do a lot of “shadow shooting” between matches, at least in the videoed events.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

The biggest challenge archers have is to know their body. When it hurts you figure out quickly what you did to cause the pain. Avoid that pain and normally you will be fine. I have always had a high draw and even promote it. After all, Kyudo archery has been around for a little over a 1000 years and they don't appear to say it causes injuries. A lot of the modern Korean archers have a high draw, however, it is not a prerequisite to shoot good. I have shot a few million shots over the years and won my first World Target title holding 51#. I weighed about 115# so I am not a very big person. This was when we shot two full FITA rounds in two days against any element mother nature threw at us. I have not had any shoulder injuries related to archery. I did do something stupid once and ran into a wall with my shoulder. It took a bit of time to heal and I learned that walls are far stronger than me! Now, having said this, do I require all of my students to use a high draw? No. We start near linear and see what they need. Some may have a low draw, some may have a level draw and some (actually most) will have a slightly high draw. Most start at 15-20 pounds until we get a form that appears to be consistent and pain free. I had one archer who took high draw to extreme and raised both hands as high as they could and then started the draw. Quite interesting and this archer did just fine. I don't advocate this, but if it works and there is no pain, why not. 

Now, about Jake and his recommendations. Realize that most of Jake's comments are from personal experience. Thus, it will be limited to what he has experienced. This is not a bad thing, but it is limited. When he says a high draw will cause injury, that may happen to him and a few others, but not everyone. Don't get me wrong, I think Jake is doing a great job in passing his knowledge on to those who need it, or like me, enjoy listening to him. I would guess from my experience, Jake is spot on about 85% of the time or at least I agree with him 85% of the time. The 15% is small and not something to complain about. Just remember that his or anyone else's recommendations are just that, recommendations. Try it and if it works, use it. If it doesn't, put it in a special file that says "tried that, done that and it doesn't work for me." This file should be about 100 times larger than the file that works for you. One of the reasons top archers are top archers is because they are not sheep. They don't follow anyone and try everything to find out what gives them the best performance. Our bodies are similar and yet very different from each other. Find the easy path of shooting and work on that consistency and you will not go wrong. 

And finally, I'm not sure if this matters but WA has defined high draw differently than what we are talking about here. Definition of a high draw for this discussion is raising your draw elbow higher than the arrow, however the arrow is still parallel to the ground or very near that. WA's definition of a high draw is as you draw the arrow point is angled up above the target while the nock is is lower than the point, thus potentially causing an arrow to fly over the bale and hitting a car, cat, dog, or person...

Rick (archery injury free for 59 years)


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> And finally, I'm not sure if this matters but WA has defined high draw differently than what we are talking about here. Definition of a high draw for this discussion is raising your draw elbow higher than the arrow, however the arrow is still parallel to the ground or very near that. WA's definition of a high draw is as you draw the arrow point is angled up above the target while the nock is is lower than the point, thus potentially causing an arrow to fly over the bale and hitting a car, cat, dog, or person...
> 
> Rick (archery injury free for 59 years)


I call one a high draw, the other i call a sky draw. 

Sky draw bad, high draw good. 

Chris


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

chrstphr said:


> I call one a high draw, the other i call a sky draw.
> 
> Sky draw bad, high draw good.
> 
> Chris


As the number of arrows in the ceilings of archery ranges can attest...bad sky draw...


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