# New MATHEWS



## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

The LX is gonna be hott!!!!! along with the Conquest 3 the both have anew limb cup and limb system that is tapered so there is 0 tolerence and there will be nomore limb lean or twisting of limbs. (not like there were really any twisted limbs before). Mathews just keeps on delivering, they have innovation after innovation!!!!! Cant wait to shoot one!!!!!


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

*LX & Roller Guard*

Does the LX have the roller guard? Also what is the IBO on the BlackMax 3?


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Thanx IRISH I for got about the New limb pockets. Lungs the LX has all the new feature including the roller guard. 330 plus and they said they can back it up


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## UltraGP (Sep 19, 2002)

Can you embelish on the Conquest 3. Does it have rollor cable, Rubber String stops, etc. Thanks!


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## archerynut02 (Jul 28, 2002)

any specs on the c3 cams roller gard brace ata speed?looks/?


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

*Fastest Bow*

Not trying to start a pissing match here, but I take it you mean the fastest SINGLE cam, because I think 350fps is the fastest overall bow.


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

They claimed 330 + on the original black max. I guess it's like the straight line cam and the straight line 2.............this time we REALLY mean it.


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## PABowhntr (Oct 2, 2002)

Ok, I want pictures, a full technical description and specs...pronto! Get on it!


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

ultraGP on the Conquest 3 it still the same as the older one except it has the new cam.It doesnt have any of the new stuff like the roller guard.But does have the new limb pockets and cam And Double Lung um Mathews invited BowTech And HOyt to come by (MAthews has a chrony setup) and shoot against it and they declined.Sooo whats up with that?


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

Someone tell me speeds, and sharpish. Like the BlackMax2 or whatever, how fast? Because if it's only 330, well...


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

Thunderstruck-

I'm not a Mathews Basher, I have owned their bows in the past and will probably own one of their new LX bows soon if I like the feel of the bow, but given it took me til May of last year to get a Legacy I probably have lots of time to test it out.

330+ fps is still not faster than 350fps, it would make more sense for Mathews to come out and say 351fps versus 330+ fps. Also if people don't want to prove something then they are ruining their credibility.

I actually got some more info on the LX off of the HOYT forum if you can believe that.

6 5/8" Brace Height (little low for me)
317 fps IBO


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## Twiztd1 (Oct 17, 2002)

Does anyone know which bows they dropped?


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## tmarch (Jun 7, 2002)

Rival Pro, MQ1, & MQ32 are gone. 
Supposed to ship the new ones in a month to 6 weeks. 
Limb cups, cams, idlers and string suppressors are going to be anodized a gunsmoke color on the camo bows and at least the limbcups will be anodized with colors like the risers in colored.
Got a new LX on the way!!!!


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Would also like to add that all new Mathews well come with a arrow rest.It can eitheer be a drop away or reagular rest.


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## UltraGP (Sep 19, 2002)

Anybody know the ATA of the C3, BH, is new cam similar to a Straight line or a Max cam in shape, What are the Let-off options? Thanks!


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## 1tex3d (Jun 13, 2002)

From what I understand, the C3 is exactly the same as the C2. The only difference is the new limb pocket system. I don't believe the new cam is avalible on the Conquest 3.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

tex is right the only diff on the Con 3 is the limb pockets.Everything else is the same as last year.


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## 1tex3d (Jun 13, 2002)

It seems like they are making a big huff over limb pockets. I can't understand how that would cause a company to change the name of a bow. Maybe I should sell both of my C2's and buy one of those C3's now that my bows are obsolete. 
I will say that it is about time that Mathews has taken care of the problem with their limb pockets. Im sure the new bows will shoot and tune easier.


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## ALASKA MIKE (Jul 13, 2002)

*Thanks Thunderstruck and others for the info!*

Could you answer some more questions for us?

On the 3 new bows could you give the IBO, AMO, what cam,ata,brace,weight,letoff.

ANy new colors for the bows?

I am a hat fan, so did they come out with a cool new hat?

So the so called "new Technology" is the limb cup or is it something else?

any changes on the strings or grips?

Whats the new apparell look like?

And finally, did you get to shoot them, and if so what did you think?

AK Mike


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## loopone (Jan 18, 2003)

Double lung, have you ever seen a Black nite II or any other Bowtech do 350 FPS ???? I have not, but I have seen a Black max do over 330 FPS, if Bowtechs bow can do the 350 FPS why did they back down to the chrono challange at the ATA show, I heard that Mathews has a machine to test draw, draw weight, let off, and draw force curve, I'll say the reason they backed out is because they know that they don't meet the specs that are needed to do a IBO test, 30" draw, most bowtechs run close to a inch over what the draw they should be, there poundage is not 70# it's most likely over, and their let off isn't even close to what they state, their 65% is more like a 55% or so, I would guess that is why they wouldn't take the challange !!!!!!! Go Black Max II and Mathews


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Mike the LX is 35 ATA with 6 5/8 brace hieght the rest is the same has last year except the Black Max has thge new cam Sorry No new hats.Yes the new limb pockets are called something I forgot what it is.Plus I am getting all my informtion via phone but they did say the LX was a sweet sweet shooter.Said it was smother than the Legacy or Icon with the new setup.If I remember or get ahold of the guys at the ATA Ill ask about the limb pockets


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## Twiztd1 (Oct 17, 2002)

Does anyone have retail pricing on the new bows.


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

hoytshooter69-

I'm sure they are going to be $650+

loop-

Why did Bowtech supposedly back down from the supposed Mathews challenge I don't know, but it is coming from someone that isn't even there. That is at least 2nd hand information, who knows Mathews could have asked Bowtech to do it today but they said no how about tomorrow.

Does this affect my paycheck any, NO. I don't care who has the fastest bow, but if a company says 350fps I think that would be quantitatively faster than a bow by another company that is saying it'll do 330+. What the heck is 330+, is that 331 or 401, if you're going to say its the fastest bow give me its top speed and then I'll agree or disagree.


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## Toddbow (May 26, 2002)

*limb pockets C3*

I would like to know if the new limb pockets will work on the older Conquest and Conquest 2's. If some one finds out please let me know.
Thanks,
Toddbow


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Lung I can guarante my info is first rate I might not be there but with the guy I have there I am there if you know what I mean.He is first rate and a non-bull$^#@.Anyways just letting some people know whats going on If you dont like what I am posting dont read it.Simple has that.


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

Thunder-

I never said I didn't like the info you were providing, I appreciate the information you are providing on the bows because the LX does sound like a nice bow, too bad the brace height is so small, but it won't stop me from buying one if it is a smooth shooter like you say it is.

Regarding the "chrono" challenge, I'm sure your guy is first rate and not a [email protected]&%*, but if your buddy didn't see it go down, then it is just a story, and stories tend to grow bigger and better the more it gets told, I would be curious what level of person turned the offer down on Bowtech's behalf. If you say your buddy was there when Strother turned down McPherson's challenge, I'd have no reason to doubt you. I do agree it is very bad for a company like Bowtech that says they have the fastest bows not to prove it, bad business.

Keep the information coming.


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## JTPArcher (Aug 7, 2002)

*Back to the subject at hand!*

Any new camo/colors this year? Also, the C3, what cam does it have? What is this new cam like-max cam, straightline...???
Jonathan


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Cause I'm bored!*

I will chime in!

I have sold Bowtechs and Mathews. I like them both. I think Mathews is over priced, but a high quality product nonetheless.

Bowtech is the only company, that I am aware of, that shoots EVERY SINGLE BOW before it leaves the factory. they then include a 'birth certificate' so you know what your bow shot. We have tested many as they came into the house and theyt have never varied by more than 1-3fps. 

No other manufacturer does that. Does that make everyone elses products inferior?? Certainly not! Does that mean Bowtech stands behind their speed claims? CERTAINLY!

Why do you think Bowtech advertises a RANGE of speeds for a given model. Because they are aware that not every bow is identical in the manufacturing process and they want no unhappy customers.

Can Mathews make any of the claims listed above. As of right now, I think not. Will this Black Max 3 shoot 330 as advertised, we will have to see what goes into the shops! Proof is in the pudding!

Lastly, I am all for brand allegiance. Shoot what you like or can afford or what your dad shot or what someone gives you. As long as you shoot!

But Mathews guys never cease to amaze me. They rant about all the patents and innovations and hwo the producst are so great. if they beleive that, good for them.

But I will tell you, there are a long line of guys with Mathews bows, hats and shirts and patches..they got all the stuff..spent all the money..look really good...and got their *** stomped by me and my lowly Parker hunting bow. Don't even make me get out my Merlin.

Have a happy day!!


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## blazen (Jan 18, 2003)

THUNDERSTRUCK 

Having spent the entire show a few booths down from Mathews , I can tell you first hand , your informer is full of bullsh**! There was never a speed challenge issued to Bowtech , Hoyt or any other mfg from Mathews.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Double Lung I see your point.Yourr right he was not there first hand it was a Rep telling him so that might not hold water. Took me a minute but I see what your saying. blazen please enlighten us on what you know. Anything can be helpful since you were there and all


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

*Weight*

Thunder-

Would be curious what the LX weighs, that was one negative about the Legacy 4 1/2lbs, if it is closer to 4lbs, looking good, but I still can't get over 6 5/8" brace height, just like the brace height to be over 7".


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Double Lung not sure about the weight ,I can found out tomm. I would say about the same as the Legacy. I know that brace it is a kicker but I already ordered one soo only time will till. going try to make a toury bow out of it(giving up my Q2XL for it). thats going to be big going from 7 1/2 to 6 5/ 8 Again I am not trying to start something just stating what they have out for now. Has for the invitation to shoot that I am not 100% on so I will not comment on that untill I have better info on that. I dont want to be accussed of starting something so lets forget about that statement.


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

Thunder-

Thanks, I thought I read on another forum the LX was in the 4lb range slightly less than the Legacy, but will be interested in what you can find out.

Thanks-
DLE


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## Toddbow (May 26, 2002)

What about the limb pockets and limbs? Will you be able to upgrade your Conquests and Conquest 2's with the new stuff? I think this is the most important question for Conquest owners.
Toddbow


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

*Re: Cause I'm bored!*



> Bowtech is the only company, that I am aware of, that shoots EVERY SINGLE BOW before it leaves the factory. they then include a 'birth certificate' so you know what your bow shot. We have tested many as they came into the house and theyt have never varied by more than 1-3 fps.


Well................ I and 3 others bought a G-3. Got the little piece of paper said the fps. Ran it through the chrony. NOT EVEN CLOSE !!
Called BT and they said "Oh you won't get the advertised speed with the let-off modules that are on the bow -- -- you need the 65% let-off ones". Not deceptive advertising huh?. So I get the 65% ones and --- NOT EVEN CLOSE -- again ! So after playing with it for some time and trying to get a group I sold it. 

God I love E-Bay ! 

Now if they put the home phone number of the guy that did the "test" on there it would be worth something.

For some reason no bow shop in the eastern 1/2 of our state sells BT. Hmmmmmmmmm ? Anyone know why that could be?


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

*Lonepuppy(Wolf)*

Lonwolf

It's apparent that Lonewolf is trying to stir up some bashing here. This thread was for guys that could not go to the show not for some horses %&# to run his mouth. 
Guys, I'm sorry for the disruption but I get tried of people bashing guys that use Mathews bows. Hey Lonewolf, I will be at the IBO Winter Nationals there we will see how much stompin you lowly Parker or your deadly Merlin prevail.
I guess you can't argue with Fortune 500 two years in a row. I think that was a milestone for our sport. Anyway, me and my Conquest 2 will be waiting for your dorky dueo. If you want to get a new thread on whining about Mathews why don't you start your own. Your bashing is not welcome here.


Love to all that love our sport!!!


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

I don't think Lonewolf was whinning. I think he was stating his opinion - which he is entitled to do. He is not bashing Mathews shooters, he is simply stating that they are overpriced. As a matter of fact if you re-read his post, you'll see one of the first things he says is that he likes Mathews. I'm a Mathews shooter so I think I've got the right to say too, that I think they are overpriced. Quite honestly, one bow is not much different than the otrher, other than the fact that each shooter will find something in particular about each bow thet suits them best. Predominantly, Mathews shooters go for Mathews because their buddy has one and he told him that it was the best and it was $700. The more it costs the better it is. 
Now....I don't like your response to Lonewolf. I don't think it's the kind of stuff we need going back and forth on this forum. It's uncalled for and unprofessional, expecially for a "pro". I think you're the one that is whinning because someone else has an opinion contrary to yours. Suck it up! Get over it - you're an adult


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

Double Lung 'Em
Mathews dosent claim that they have the fastest bow. They claim that they have the fastest single cam! Big difference. A bowTech BK2 is a double cam so of course it will be faster. And the physical weight on the LX is 4.2 pounds. Making a little lighter then the Legacy.


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: Cause I'm bored!*



Lonewolf92c said:


> *I will chime in!
> 
> I have sold Bowtechs and Mathews. I like them both. I think Mathews is over priced, but a high quality product nonetheless.
> 
> ...


I guess I will reply one more time and then let it be water under the bridge. I did quote myself for those of you who only read negativeness into what I said. Tip that Mathews hat up out of your eyes and put down the advertising! I think I opened my post by claiming that Mathews was a good product and my only beef was price. 

I then stated EXPERIENCE with Bowtech bows not what some guy told me!

If Mathews claims the 'fastest bow on the planet' at 330fps then they are just stupid!! If they did not then it is a mute point.

I did not intend to bash Mathews shooters. Just bringing to light how some of them blindly follow Mathews claims and don't understand technology behind it.

As I closed before....Shoot what you can afford...shoot what you like..shoot what someone gave you...JUST SHOOT!

NO WORRIES TO ALL......NO HARM NO FOUL...NO DISRESPECT INTENDED!


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Thanks!*



Shooter Mike said:


> *I don't think Lonewolf was whinning. I think he was stating his opinion - which he is entitled to do. He is not bashing Mathews shooters, he is simply stating that they are overpriced. As a matter of fact if you re-read his post, you'll see one of the first things he says is that he likes Mathews. I'm a Mathews shooter so I think I've got the right to say too, that I think they are overpriced. Quite honestly, one bow is not much different than the otrher, other than the fact that each shooter will find something in particular about each bow thet suits them best. Predominantly, Mathews shooters go for Mathews because their buddy has one and he told him that it was the best and it was $700. The more it costs the better it is.
> Now....I don't like your response to Lonewolf. I don't think it's the kind of stuff we need going back and forth on this forum. It's uncalled for and unprofessional, expecially for a "pro". I think you're the one that is whinning because someone else has an opinion contrary to yours. Suck it up! Get over it - you're an adult *


SEMPER F&%$*#*G FI


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

Lonewolf92c,
How can you say that Mathews are over priced. If you have sold both Mathews and Bowtechs then you must know that both bows retail prices are pretty much the same. So if you are going to say Mathews is over priced then you have to include Bowtech in that equasion. Personally I think all bows are over priced. It is pretty funny when bow companies went to machined risers the prices doubled, thats weird because it costs much more to manufacture a Magnesium riser bow then it does to manufacture a machined riser. Dont get me wrong I am no magnesium riser fan but you would think that if the manufacturing process gets less expensive then so should the bows.


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## Mike in Conn. (Jan 5, 2003)

Lonewolf and Shooter Mike, I shoot Mathews but have to give you guys a big Amen on your posts! Everyone is welcome to thier opinions. If anyone was trying to stir the pot, I would have to say that would be Thunderstruck for posting second hand, and or misinformation about Mathews challenging Hoyt and BowTech to a chrono test. I hope we can get some posts soon from people that were there and have FIRST hand knowledge and FACTS, not rumors.


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Very Engaging Post!*



IRISH said:


> *Lonewolf92c,
> How can you say that Mathews are over priced. If you have sold both Mathews and Bowtechs then you must know that both bows retail prices are pretty much the same. So if you are going to say Mathews is over priced then you have to include Bowtech in that equasion. Personally I think all bows are over priced. It is pretty funny when bow companies went to machined risers the prices doubled, thats weird because it costs much more to manufacture a Magnesium riser bow then it does to manufacture a machined riser. Dont get me wrong I am no magnesium riser fan but you would think that if the manufacturing process gets less expensive then so should the bows. *


As I read your post Irish, I gotta agree with you wholeheartedly on all points!
They ARE all too expensive!! Bowtech included!! I am dying to have a new Patriot DC, but retail in our shop is gonna be roughly $690!! Even with my disc. it's gonna be a chunk of change! Damn I hate this sport! Hahaha!

I must say though, I think Mathews has some of the prettiest target colors out there!

As for magnesium vs. machined. Machined is technically superior to cast magnesium in strength and tolerences. But if process is cheaper to CNC(after you amortize all equiptment needed) we shouldn't see such price difference!

Have I said I hate this sport!


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

*Show Me?*

Show me a high performance one or two cam bow that is not overpriced? The price on a CNC machine is outragous. I would think Magnesium would be cheeper because they use sand casting then finish them out but, Magnesium is very flamable. Anyway, I think the C3 will have more parallel design to them. I would like to have more descriptive detail than they have changed limb pockets and the cam.


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## garopro (Jan 18, 2003)

*2xl*

I have ordered a Hoyt Ultratec that still has not arrived. My local dealer is at the show and has told his staff that the new Mathews are really hot! They all shot mathews 2001 and now shoot Hoyt 2002 cam and a 1/2. From what I'm hearing maybe I should wait. I have a 32" draw and the Q2SL was only 31 the Hoyt was 321/2. Does anyone know yet if the new bows have a longer draw length. HELP!


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## Kari Hämäläinen (Oct 19, 2002)

CNC is very expensive and specially if you dont have high speed CNC and still it is. If you look carefully macined riser you dont notice any cuttermarks or how it is machined so finishing is also very enpensive. Finishingsteps are very tight. Look specially round tight 3d corners , forms and edges and you notice that.

I dont know if machined aluminum risers has to be also heat treated to decrease tension because machining twists riser unequaly. Certain very accurate dimensioned alumininumparts have to be macined by turning part over and over again and taking material out only very litle.

3d modeling takes also a great piece especially when you have to be just on edge of trend.

If it is so simple I would design and make my bows riser just tomorrow.


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

*im not*

amathews fan or a bowtech fan or even a hoyt fan and we all shoot what we like and others be damned. that said there are so many new ideas on the market that if you think about it, we are the ones that have to pay the price for the technology and unfortuanately that means higher prices and if you want to keep up with the joneses then it's time to bring out the check book or that little piece of plastic. there is to much slamming going on and i have been a part of it myself i hate to say. i would like to see people get together one time and not say somehting derrogatory about another company or make fun of a guy because he doesn't shoot what you shoot. i shoot pse and it seems to get the brunt of every other company around and i can live with that it's all part of the life or archery and shooting a bow. from what i have seen if you go to any shoot not including the pros then you will see every type of bow or close to it on the line or on the trail at a 3d. if you ask me we should all ban together and whine and have cheese with that whine as we boycott the manufacturers and find a company that will build high tech bows and sell them at prices we all can afford. like that's ever going to happen lol. guys a bow is a bow is a bow no matter what brand it is. as for fast, it just means you can miss quicker than the next guy that shoots a lower speed bow. i am sorry for rambling on gettin old i guess but i would like to see a thread one time that said it's not the bow it's the people that shoot them that make the bow companies famous not the innovations and if you think about it if we didn;t buy them where would any bow company be and for technology it's not just what the pros say but we as consumers that help make change happen. now i am getting off my soap box and hope everyone has a great day. and it doesn;t matter what you shoot it's that you shoot.
take care
rob k


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## smokin12ring (Dec 4, 2002)

i read all this and im not going to be negative by no means on any company im not like that but i will stick up for a company when i hear something i disagree with.i shot mathews for 3 years and still would be if i didnt get picked up by champion bows this year. but regarding price i looked at bowtech and hoyt and there top bows compared to mathews are no cheaper at all so how is mathews over priced. i did go to college and learn some economics thought and if the demand is high the price usually follows the demand and mathews does have a high demand but also so does hoyt now bowtech in the st.louis area is not so hot but i did look at pro 40 in target colors and it cost 720.00 so its not no cheaper than a mathews conquest 2 when they were new i dont know what the new ones will cost but mathews usually sets reasonable prices for the market. think about it a new 2003 browning in target colors is 800.00


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

I used to me a mathews shooter also, Zmax: I liked the bow and wanted to upgrade into a Q2: but the pricing is just too much for a bow that doesnt shoot any better than one that is $200.00 less

Just my opinion : Mathews is a nice bow if you want to spend the money for the nameand the hat/shirts and all the other goodies:


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

asa3dpro,
Instead of buying a different mold for every cast riser you can just buy one CNC machine and manufacture any riser design you want. If you are casting risers then you have to have a different mold for ever riser and a different for right or left hand. So therefore it is less expensive to manufacture machined risers.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Mike in Conn me stirring the pot? Come on man I have done no such thing if you really read my post I said that Double Lung was right about the statement I made about the challenge so I dissmissed it.And I told everyone else to dismiss it because it was hear say. I also said I wasnt there but I had a buddy that was there that phoned me and told me about the new line up.All that has been true,has far as the fastest bow on the planet , its in the new Mathews catalog so I didnt make that up. The only thing that has a chance not being true is the "CHALLENGE" that was not fist hand info. And I stated that in a post after I find out for sure if he actually headr it are not. So I dont know how you can say I am stirring the pot when all I did was tell everyone what they came out with. Except for the challenge ( which I came back and told everyone that it might be a rumor) everything I've stated has been about Mathews no one else.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Just a little note on machining vs. casting. 

The new high speed machining being done on aluminum parts allows for +/- 0.001" tollerances without multiple steps. I have done CNC programming for airplane wing ribs and such that are now machined out of solid billet rather than stamped. The extremely high spindle rates and feed rates at lower chip loads basically "beats" the part to a stress free state when it is done.

The aircraft parts are 2' long by 10" wide and have thicknesses as thin as 0.050". These are being machined in one step per side and have flatness tollerances of +/- 0.002" over the length of the part! It really is incredible how the new equipment can work on this stuff.

Casting is another animal all together. Risers are not sand cast, but die cast in very expensive hardened steel tooling. I have quoted tools for a shop that does work for Hoyt. Just a new half for one of their die cast molds was $14,000 for the machining.

Machined risers used to cost about $45 before finishing. At least that is what we charged Hoyt way back when they first started doing it, before they brought it all in house. The newer machining centers are much faster and that cost has probably dropped significantly for the manufacturers doing it in house.

It takes a very large commitment to a cast riser design to justify the tooling expense these days. That is why most newer bows are all machined.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Southpawarcher (Sep 14, 2002)

Any news on whether the conquest 2 can be upgraded to the new limb pockets offered on the c3?


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

garopro,
You will be able to shoot a Conquest 3 this is Mathews only bow that they offer in a 32" draw length. In my opinion it is the best bow Mathews has ever built!!!!!!


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## TopPin (Jan 18, 2003)

Well boys and girls let me enlighten you to a few facts ! Seems like there are an awful lot of posts about Mathews being over Priced. Have any of you taken the time to check out the high end bows fron your favorite manufacture ? I am taking about the bows that are pro shop bows only. They are just as high or within 30$ to 40$ or in some cases higher when it comes to suggested retail.



Hoyt Havoctec $649
Bow tech Patriot $699
PSE Nitro $799
McPherson 38 spec. $759
High country carbon Lite Pro $639
Mathews Q2 $689
Mathews legacy $699

How about the speed thing from Bowtech ? 344 to 350 ? I will tell you how they get there and you can pick one up at any Pro shop you wish and you will find the same results. First of all there draw lengths run close to 1 1/2 inches long( you know how that increases speed )as to what is stated. Second the 65% let off is closer to 55%. If you want to run IBO specs (70# pull, 30 inch draw, 350 grain arrow pick one up and check it out or have an independent run the tests for you. It will not hit there advertised speeds set at IBO specs. 

Pick up A Mathews and run it at exact IBO specs, it will hit what is stated in their literature. The Blackmax Will hit its 330+ which is close to 332 0r 333 FPS. Lets compare bows straight across the board . Speed is not such a big thing but in my book, but honesty is and that is where a few companies are lacking!


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## Osage (Jan 19, 2003)

I have shot a lot of mathews at my specs of 70#/30", and always got very close to IBO rating maybe 5fps off, which never bothered me considering loop weight and so forth.

On the other hand there are a lot of folks who say just what you do about draw length, and speed relative to Mathews. Unless the industry actualy mandates independant testing or whatever, which won't happen, who can you believe.

Does anyone know if the C3 has the same geometry as the C2?


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

I shot the new LX, this bow is not the Legacy with a longer ATA length....trust me. The new cam is really smooth, has bearings in it, and has adjustable letoff (65 or 80%). When I shot this bow it has almost no handshock or jump (barebow with a NAP center flipper rest). I was impressed, it was smooth, queit, and felt good in the hand. nothing revolutionary but very refined mathews bow. 

The Conquest 2 is nice & should be a great 3-D bow. I really didn'y pay much attention to the new Black Max & honestly I don't think very many other people did either.


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Funny eh!*

While I appreciate the research TopPin has done on our behalf..is there any willing to bet paychecks that he either deals and/or shoots Mathews Bows?

Takers?
Going....Going...Going!

Secondly, for you dealers out there..do you sell at MSRP? I think not...we don't!

Finally, I'll ask again. DOES ANY MANUFACTURER PUBLISH WHAT A BOW SHOOTS OUT OF THE FACTORY.....I'M LISTENING...CAN;T HEAR YOU MATHEWS GUYS....

OH YEA!! BOWTECH DOES..NOW THATS HONESTY..PUT ON PAPER.PUBLISHED..IF IT DON'T SHOOT IT..YOU CAN SEND IT BACK..SO SAYETH THE BOWTECH REP!!!!

Can all the whiny Mathews guys agree to call this peeing match off. You like them. Great! They're the best bows on the planet. Great! They'll make you IBO champion. Great!

it's your money...be happy.....


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## garopro (Jan 18, 2003)

Irish,

Thanks for the imput. 41"" ATA seems a little long for me since I plan to do a lot of hunting. Any shorter ATAT in the Conquest 3. The Hoyt is 371/2.

Garo


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

robk
i think it is the shooter especially after this past 3-d season i shot many of them equally well to each other just about.have to say tuning a bow is probably a large portion and form an even larger portion to being a succesful shot.
i would compare archery to race cars in the fact that for chevy dodge etc. are all "basically" the same, however whoever can tweak the most or best is who usually wins . for instance my step dad was working on some pro stock truck manual tranny trying to gain some power and by the time he was done it was so smooth and effortless to turn the output shaft it was amazing!!
then you go on to the next guys and it wasn't anywhere near what he had done. 
so regardless of someone else using the same product his was better because as they say the devil was in the details if you know what i mean......
therfore i am most wholeheartedly inclined to agree with you and others that it ain't so much the bow as it is the shooter, however i will will say this that starting with quality does help to BEGIN with, then you tinker and fiddle and tune and tweak until near perfection is acheived . bow companies pay people to shoot their bows for a reason because they can make their products shine. same reason a race car team hires a crew chief, he knows more than john public does and evryone wants to be like them!!!! look at dale earnhardt, dave cousins, stevie ray vaughn, the benelli shotgun guy and so on...
good products help but "masters" are what make things fly high not products


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Ok, I'm really annoyed. You all are going on about the bows.. but where the heck are the pictures. I wanna see for myself the new 2003 mathews. I'm really intrested. Anyone have photo's? Would be great to see um. Good shooting. Dylan.

Ps. My FX limbs are on there way here from calgary. Took 2 months. Around the time it took for me to get them the first time. Not to bad, figured warranty would be quicker though.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

ps not saying i am a tremendous shot or anything either, just my lifelong observations......lol
and i am not bashing anyones product nor am i saying that something does not work better for someone else over whatever 
i am always amazed at what PEOPLE can come up with to make things work better than what others can. making the same product better for the intended job


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

To shoot well... it doesn't matter how much the bow costs. It's about loving the sport, being passionate about your shooting and enjoying the equipment you shoot. Whether that equipment be from a neighbours yard sale or from the most expensive manufacture in the world. Shoot well, shoot straight, enjoy archery. 
Dylan


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## ALASKA MIKE (Jul 13, 2002)

*Indiana_archer posted pics in General archery*

Goto General archery to see new pics of the 2003 mathews





Mike


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

LoneWolf howe much you pay for your bow? You guys this started out as a post on new Mathews not what kind of stupid paper comes with a bow. Do a price check Hoyt,PSE,High Country and BowTech are in the same ball game as price. Who cares what it shoots when it leaves the plant I am more interested in how it shoots when I setup not the plant. BTW LoneWolf if you dont like Mathews dont come to this thread.Go to a Bow Tech post


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Was just trying...*

to keep abreast of info for sake of my learning and customers....

ease up dude...what are you from arkansas or something.....oops....should have looked....

I payed $525 for my Parker Hunter Mag Package

I payed $600 for Max2000

I payed $300 for SureLoc Lite

I payed $160 for Bullseye scope and TrueSpot Lense

I payed $150 for two used TRU Ball SS 4 Spots.

I payed $68 for raw shaft Cobalt X7's

I pay $85 for raw shaft Carbon Express 3D selects

I payed $62 for custome string and cables for Max2000

I have 3 other shooters in my family. You want detailed costs on their rigs too? You trying out for personal banker position?

I tried to call it water under the bridge....***?


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## Toddbow (May 26, 2002)

My Conquests,
Bought in 1999- Camo Conquest Light $550
Bought in 2001- Camo Conquest 2 $575
Bought in 2002- Kiwi Conquest 2 $625
All bows bought new. Prices are without sales tax.

I see a trend here. Conquest, Conquest 2, and now the 3. Martin Scepter, Scepter 2 and then the 3. Solution 2, Solution 2.5, Solution 3. This is truly a good trend. Manufacturers improving an already great product.

Pics of Mathews have been posted in the General Archery section by Indiana Archer, I believe.

Toddbow


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## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

Hey, Has anybody got any information on the new line of Mathews bows? 
Oh yea, that's how this thread started,I forgot!


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Not bashing here - I shoot a Mathews. But I still agree that they are over priced. The reason is, as soon as you get one, the first thing you have to do is get rid of the factory grip and replace it with one that fits the hand better and you also have to get a good cable; one that the serving will hold up to the beatings the cam give it. My Legacy and Q2 are great shooters, and I'm glad I bough them. I would just like to see better grips and smoother cams. I guess the new cams are better this year, since they have smoothed over edges. Maybe next year they'll offer better grips. I'm interested to see if the new "V-Cup" limb pockets are as beneficial as they're advertised to be. I've never had any problems with old limb cups. Anyone able to elaborate on the new limb cups "technology"?


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

LoneWolf Getting personal? Wow you come on here pissing and moaning about Mathews and I am the dumb one. You act like you need somebody to SHOW YOU everything.ooops my bad should've looked.


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*About the Mathews Challenge*

Hi all,

My first post here. I just wanted to ring in about the chronograph invite at the ATA show. First off, I am not a dealer, or a staff shooter for anybody. I do shoot a Mathews, an Icon to be exact.

I've gotten into making my own strings and have been talking with one of the Mathews tech guys to help me solve the problems I've created for myself. At any rate, I got everything lined back out and called my tech guy to thank him for his help. This was the week before the show. I tried to tease a little info out of him because my wife will be up for a new rig this year. He told me enough to keep me interested while keeping true to the government level secrecy Mathews has. He DID tell me that Mathews was going to present some data at the show about other manufacturers' speed claims, and how they basically do not hold water. I basically brushed it aside without much thought until I read this post. So, I do think there is definitely something to it.

By the way, my Icon ($559), the slowest of the line, was chronographed last week at 287fps. That being at 29.5" draw, 60lbs measured on certified scale, 300 grain cxl 250's, 18 strand 8125 string, 20 strand buss. If you don't beleive me, I'll put you in contact with the Hoyt dealer whose chronograph I shot it on.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing the Hoyt folks, or BT, or anybody. I just don't take kindly to people talking about things they are either misinformed or ignorant about. JMHO.

Brian


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Cast1, looks like your bow is a little slow. You are only 1/2 inch away from IBO specs so if you add 5 fps to your 287 that would be 292 IBO at 30 inches.


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## Lonewolf92c (Oct 1, 2002)

*Cease Fire!*

thunderstick,

you're right! my comment was out of line and I apologise. never want to get personal, just in fun as a rule. 

In my humbl eopinion, you should be a little less sensitive and quick to wit.

Be happy..have a nice day!


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

OK Wolf I agree no harm no foul here. Just dont like the personal stuff.I'm sensitive that way.LOL


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

*I shouldn't go here but....*

OK, this is the same ol, same ol that every manufacturer thread ends up with......**beat chest** "my bow is better than your bow" garbage.

Talk to any pro, any shooter who has shot more than 3 brands of bows and they will tell you that every manufacturer makes a nice bow. Pro's shoot whatever is given to them.
The problem with archery, much like any other sport is the advertising dollar spent on hyping the newest bow is so incredibly high and the cost of machining and production is so high that the end product prices reflect the cost.

The same Mathews shooter this year might try his buddy's Hoyt later this season and LOVE it. He might shoot his dad's Martin and HAVE to have it tomorrow. he might even go to a shop and just try a BowTech and see that they shoot very nice and spend another $650 before the hunting season because that bow is the sweetest bow he/she has ever shot.

The one thing that Mathews has that other companies don't is a great advertising campaign. Almost every Mathews shooter I see is wearing a hat with Mathews on the front. 
I'm not a Mathews dealer and will never be but thats my take. I felt that mathews is way overpriced but now, as someone pointed out above, they are all similarly priced.

I am seeing a trend on this board....every time the bow company bashing starts, it is started by a Mathews shooter.
Why is that?

Speed kills, accuracy kills quicker.

Jon


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## NHhunter (Jan 19, 2003)

Children, children....please!

I am amazed! Brand name has nothing to do with hunting or competition. Who cares what you have or how much it costs? What I want to know is how well you do, because of your purchase. How many more bucks have you bagged or how many more 3d's have you won because you switch from a Buckmaster to a Mathews or Bowtech? I bag 2 deer a year and place in the top 6 at the local 3d's........with a Martin Warthog from 1989! A Mathews bow (or any bow for that matter) will not help me do any better. Most of you have changed from caring about the sport, to caring about brandnames. Girls did that with jeans in the 6th grade ( and a pair of Jordcahe jeans didn't necessarily make them look any better). 
As for arrow speed, it doesn't matter if the actual IBO specs are right. By the time you get the bow set-up for hunting, it's not even close. Did you bag a deer with it? That's all that matters! 
Here is how to find the "perfect bow".......
Go to a proshop, tell the guy the most you will spend, put the blindfold on and shoot 6 or 7 bows ( no peeking). Remember the one you liked the best and buy it. You will be surprised which one you picked, but you WILL be happy.


"STOP FLAPPING YOUR GUMS AND PROVE YOUR POINT!"


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

*walks with a gi - IBO*

Cast1:


> By the way, my Icon ($559), the slowest of the line, was chronographed last week at 287fps. That being at 29.5" draw, 60lbs measured on certified scale, 300 grain cxl 250's


walks with a gi:


> Cast1, looks like your bow is a little slow. You are only 1/2 inch away from IBO specs so if you add 5 fps to your 287 that would be 292 IBO at 30 inches.


IBO is 1/2 inch of draw more AND 10 pounds and 50 grains on the arrow. That will add considerably more than 5 fps to the setup.


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*Thanks Stash*

You would think walks with a gi would know that. I would kindly refer "walks" to the end of my last post. My grandfather always told me this. "It's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Thanks
Brian


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

"( and a pair of Jordcahe jeans didn't necessarily make them look any better). "


HEHE I'll give you that one. But what about those Levis with the little white tag? Remember those? WOOOOO WEEEEEEEEE! 

I'll tell ya, I didn't miss much school after those things came out. lol


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

johnnybow I think not its all ways a Bow Tech shooter


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## TopPin (Jan 18, 2003)

Mathews 

LX

35 inches ATa
Brace height 6 5/8
25 to 30 inch draw available
1/2 sizes 25 1/2 - 29 1/2
65% and 80% Let off on same cam
New HP ( High Performance Straightline cam sealed ball bearings )
New Tapered V Lock Limbs and Limb cups (0 tolerance on movement )
Sting Suppressors
Harmonic Dampners
Gun Smoke Anodized Limb Cups On Camo Bows
Target color bows limb cups now match the riser (sweet ! )
IBO 65% 317
IBO 80% 315

Conquest 3
Exact same specs as Conquest 2 except it has the new 0 Tolerance V Lock Limbs and Limb Cups.
Gun smoke anodize cups on camo bows
Target colors, limb cups match the riser

Black Max 2
Same specs as before Except 65% and 80% cam avaialable
String Suppressors
Harmonic Dampners
IBO 330+ at 80% let off

Two Thumbs Up for Archery !


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

*Top Pin*

Great job!!! This along with the pictures to the other thread are what alot of us have been waiting for. You have read the crap I and the other Mathews shooters had to endure for this info. Thanks a million man. You rock!!!!!!!!!


RI


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## Indiana_archer (Dec 10, 2002)

*Mathews "Awesome"*

The new mathews are awesome. 

On the draw lenght subject:
Mathews may vary a 1/4 inch at the most but the bowtech's draw lenght varies an inch or more than what is marked on the bow this is where the speed comes from. If you have a 29" draw bowtech bow the actual draw length is atleast a 30" it has been tested and proven. Customer service from Mathews is the best overall.
Bowtech makes a great bow but lets get all the facts before we start bashing.
Some people give archery a bad name by bad mouthing what others shoot and other manufacturers.
If a beginner see's this this will turn him or her away. 
This is'nt pre-school people.
Well enough said it isnt worth bashing people or what they shoot.
So why cant we all just shoot what we want and not critisize others for what they shoot.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Amen Indiana_Archer Amen


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## wvshooter (Jan 19, 2003)

I would like to know where I can find this proof about the drawlength being at least 1" longer than marked on Bowtech's bows. I own both brands and have not found this to be a problem on any of the Bowtech bows I have owned. I am not bashing or defending either company , would just like to see this proof .


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*it iscalled an artificial Draw Length*

Alot of speed bows get their speed from a very low brace height. This artificially increases your draw length, thus you store more energy in the bow, thus faster arrows. The BowTech Black Knight 2 has a brace height of 5.25 or 6.25 and shoots over 350 fps. The Patriot D/C has a brace of around 7.5 and shoots around 330. The single cam Patriot has a brace of 7.5 and shoots around 310. The TomKat has a brace of 9.25 and shoots around 280. 

And this artificial DL also applies to the new Matthews bows as well, otherwise they would not be getting the speeds out of the bow.


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

I read about 1/3 of this thread and found quite a bit of misinformation in it so quit reading.

For starters in the original post, the new bow from Mathews was called the Black Max 3...Sorry, but the catalog and bow I looked at say Black Max 2...That's first hand information because I have the new Mathews catalog in my hand...So should we assume all the given information is right?

We did not back down from any challenges because no challenges were touted.

FWIW, Kevin S did have a BKPro strapped in the Hooter Shooter at the neighbors booth when I left at 3:15...LOL...


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*The chrono challenge*

Bowtech_Shooter,

I wasn't fabricating my conversation with the tech rep from Mathews. He didn't specify a chronograph challenge, but did elude to SOMETHING. Not that any of this makes a hill of beans difference anyway. Nobody will ever TALK someone into thinking another bow is better than one they already have confidence in. It's something we acquire through experience and trial and error. Personally I'm glad that so many people have the resources to enjoy the sport. Perhaps I was wrong in getting my feathers ruffled before. Can't we all just get along?

B_S, sounds like you were there. I'm curious. If there was no chrono challenge, was there any material presented to dispute other mfrs. claims? I'm curious.

Thanks,
Brian


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

My Badd BTS, a typo on part please dont stone me Oh Great One. Glad to see you had a safe trip. BTW I talked to some guys today that just got back.They swear there was a challenge. ? So I guess its a safe bet we will never know.And by neighbors you mean Mathews then I know we will find out what it shot.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

Well there is a lot to be disputed about HCI and their claim of their 400 FPS bow. what a LAUGH!!!


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## mike66 (Jan 20, 2003)

I think the changes that Mathews have made are about on par with how they do things.....one step ahead of the competion not ten. Why bust out all your ideas in one year. The Mathews owner said it himself....I'm not going to quote him because the interview I read was some time ago but all it said was what I have already written......he isn't going to load up his line of bows with all his innovations this year, next year or the year after. He plans to spread it out over years....and years. Makes sense to me. Although, this may not have been the year for small changes. There is so much hype in this part of the country (Montana) over Hoyt and BowTech is makes me ill. Not that I don't feel they make good bows....but, they (the Hoyt and BT owners) wont even shoot a Mathews to see why we Mathews lovers love our bows so much. I know from experience that my Legacy out shoots every bow that I have ever owned (including PSE, High Country (gag), Hoyt, Bear and Browning. Not to mention, how much I enjoy shooting such a smooth bow, hour after hour, after hour.

Have you ever put a Trap Door on your Mathews with Trophy Ridge sights? Talk about ridicule!!!!!!!!! I'm the first to admit that All of these items would have gotten plenty of comments from me a year ago...negative ones at that. Simple fact of the matter is....I shoot awsome scores with this set up...3D and paper (Vegas 3spot and regular 5 spot). 

I now have a CR scope, sure-loc supreme, and a trophy taker rest on my Legacy...just to see how it compares. Next I will try the Montana Black Golds New sight. The trophy ridge has some serious problems (although when it stays put it performs well).

All I'm trying to say is....the Legacy shoots so well that you can tell when a product works and when it doesn't because your scores change with different products and you can rely on your bow performing very good....good enough to let you know when other products aren't up to others standards....and I like that.


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

*The tide is turning*

"There is so much hype in this part of the country (Montana) over Hoyt and BowTech is makes me ill."


Hasn't been that long ago that we (non- mathews shooters) were saying the same thing about Mathews.


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

Toddbow- If you want to upgrade your old Conquest to the new Conquest you would need new limb pockets and new limbs. I would imagine the cost of the limbs would be in the 170.00 to 180.00 range and the 2 limb cups another 80 or 100 bucks. Hardley worth it as I never had a problem with their old limb cups.


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## stodr (Sep 4, 2002)

Thunderstruck was right about a couple of things the new mathews shoots great. 

There was a shoot off also sunday Afternoon. The Mathews computer measured the specs for the BowTech bow. They would not however let anybody measure their bow. Fine take them at their word. The shoot off comenced

BowTech 29" draw 5 3/4" BH
Mathews 30" draw 5 1/2" BH 5fps more.

The BowTech was taken right off the rack that people had been shooting all weekend. The Mathews was a one of a kind at the show and nobody was allowed to shoot it.

For those who keep saying the draw lengths are off for BowTech they had a arrow made by carbon express in their both so anybody could check the draw length. And all the ones I saw check were either right on or slightly short, but never off by a 1/8" either way measuring AMO length.

It don't really matter what happened shoot what you like. As far as I can tell Mathews and Bowtech were extremely busy all weekend. As I am sure the rest were but was not able to see them much.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

Toddbow,
You cant upgrade to the new limbs on your old conquest. The pockets and limbs arent the only difference it also has a different riser to acceot the limb pockets. The riser is the same except where the pockets attach. Hope this info will help.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

AMEN to that shooterMike AMEN!!


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Ok BowTech_Shooter you the guy to ask this to.You said there never was a challenge,stodr posted on another board that BowTech was the one that challenged Mathews and they declined. So what was it. Talk about me spreading rumors jheez. I goofed up on the BM3 thing my badd it was a typo. I posted about the challenge, then I came back and said that it was second hand info to forget it till we talked to guys that were there. Other than that I never did pass on bad info.BTW I wasnt the only one that heard about the challenge cast1 rep told him soooo. Never mind it doesnt even matter. Untill everybody on this board can witness first hand it will all ways be "Second Hand INFO"


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## Osage (Jan 19, 2003)

I have never had a C2 problem either, I won't be buying a new one. If I did' I would just bed the limb ends in epoxy, to zero out any slop that might exist.


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## TopPin (Jan 18, 2003)

Stodr

I think that you need to do a little more research into the testing that was done at the ATA show that Mathews was doing with the Machine. They were setting every bow up to exact IBO specs: 30 inch draw
70# pull
350 grain arrow

Their was nothing hidden at any time, as a matter of fact computer print outs were available. The bows were shot at IBO specs and the results put on a piece of tape that was then attatched to the string . I think that you will find out why Mathews claim to the fastest bow is stated.
Remember those three little lines that always follows IBO specs ! 70# pull
30 inch draw
350 grain arrow
A 350 grains is 350 grains whether it is 27 inches long or 30 inches long, aluminum or carbon. It is still being shot at 30 inch draw and 70# pull. There was nothing hidden, all done in plain sight. You have to compare apples to apples for a fair test, and I would be willing to bet that if you asked the people from Hoyt, Bowtech,Mathews, High Country, Jennings and the rest of the bow manufactures that were there, that every thing there was above board and in black and white !


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

THUNDERSTRUCK, given your past history regarding BowTech, you take every opportunity to bash. I see you backed off quickly when called out on second hand rumors here. I haven't seen the draw length discrepancies on my BowTechs. My draw measures 29", and guess what, my modules are 29". And I am not finding myself having trouble with a too long draw length.

TopPin, you obviously came here for the same thing. 

Cast1, what does " He didn't specify a chronograph challenge, but did elude to SOMETHING." mean?
"By the way, my Icon ($559), the slowest of the line, was chronographed last week at 287fps. That being at 29.5" draw, 60lbs measured on certified scale, 300 grain cxl 250's," My 60# P38 DC shoots 285 at 29" 375 gr arrow. 318 with a 300 gr arrow. This with 7.25" brace. 

mike66, "....but, they (the Hoyt and BT owners) wont even shoot a Mathews to see why we Mathews lovers love our bows so much." I've shot them. As I see it, you can open a magazine and say "that's my bow". That's why.

Please notice I haven't bashed any manufacturer here. I merely made observations and asked questions. BowTech is making waves, and some people nervous.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Phil do 1 thing for me, Show me where I bashed BowTech or any other bow. If always said they made great bows.The only time you ever see me jump in is when they get crazy posting about Mathews. Granted I have posted a bunch on BowTech subjects, but never bashed. You find me one post on any board that doesnt start out about Mathews but they all seem to come back about how Mathews copied everybody,s design. Mybe I "protect" Mathews to much but what guy out here doesnt for any other bow.( Wont mention names) Everything I stated was true,Yes I stepped away from the challenge post because I personally didnt see it. But as you can see it was true so I wasnt wrong after all. P.S. Phil I have nothing against BowTech, just some of the guys that shoot them. Mybe I have lowered myself to their level. But if you think I bashed plz show me where so I can re-evaluate myself. Thanks TS


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## Metrodix (May 30, 2002)

tmarch said:


> *Rival Pro, ............are gone.
> *


WHAT? Oh, Lord, I am so glad that I have one.

The Rival Pro was one of the most successful target bows in the last 2 years in Germany. Three of our top 5 shooters are shooting the Rival Pro. (Me too)

So, what the heck, Mathews is doing?
Have they plans for a new FITA bow?

Sven


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

THUNDERSTRUCK, I suppose bashing is a little strong. Probably having little to nothing positive to say is more accurate. 

"The only time you ever see me jump in is when they get crazy posting about Mathews."

Who are they? The threads I refer to are BowTech threads, not Mathews threads. 

Sorry if I upset you. I may need to re-evaluate myself; to see if I can raise my level.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Phil no you didnt upset me.The post I was refering to was also BowTech threads,they always seem to have to say something about Mathews. Just like here this was a Mathews thread and it turned into Mathews vs BowTech. But I quess it will always be that way. Brand x against Brand y. As long as you got a bow and enjoy shooting it thats what its all about. Promote the sport with what ever bow you chose and be proud of what you got.


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

I thought this was a talk about the new M-bows not BowTech I'm seeing more talk about BT then the M-bows on here. BowTech is just making everyone seatup and take notice.


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## stodr (Sep 4, 2002)

Top pin yes it was on a computer paper but why wouldn't they do it in front of anybody and yes I was there. Second the BowTech bow was not 30 inches that model they shot only goes to 29 inches check the paper like you said. Not trying to get in a pissing match. And it doesn't matter who challenged who, they did shoot it off and under the parameters above mathews won.

Thunderstruck you did start this thread with a challenge to bowtech.


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## garopro (Jan 18, 2003)

*lighten up*

I'm a beginner so be easy!

I recently ordered a Hoyt Ultratec and I started doing some research to see what the opinions of other archers were about there equipment and to see what sights, rests, etc. I might choose. I should have read all the posts before I bought my bow. The logical choice would be the ugh…………..I don’t have a clue, not really. I have hunted and played golf for 30 years and never in my life have I read more opinions on bows. Thanks! Some of the posts are great. The passion you guys have about your equipment is unreal and the fact that one product is better than the other is sometimes funny. Take golf, an elite field of probably 400 professional golfers. Go to all the equipment manufactures in golf and you have maybe 6 or 8 players playing one club. Ping, Callaway, Titleist and Nike all spend millions on advertising and paying their players to use their clubs. Professional hunting seems to be the same Browning, Beretta and Remington all good companies. I have never gotten in an argument about my Beretta or my Callaway’s. We’re usually are having too much fun hunting or drinking around the campfire and telling lies. I always get asked “may I shoot your shotgun” “may I hit your driver” and to this day everyone says “wow that’s a great club or I can’t hit your drive I really like my Ping” but they don’t say there driver is better than mine. What felt good to them is what they use? 

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t find the fanatic’s in golf or hunting like I do in archery. I know this is a sport that is catching on fast in America and I for one am excited about learning to shoot. Go to Hoyt or Mathews or any top of the line bow website and you’ll find professionals using there bows again advertising and promotion.

They all seem to have great bows!

I came to this website trying to figure out what bow and additional equipment would be good. I was looking for the why’s and why not’s of the bow, sights, rests, and release. I wasn’t interested in getting into the sandbox with “mines better than yours”. In golf we step on the first tee and the last putt on the 18th hole decides whose best not the equipment. Information from you guys that have used different equipment and why you like and dislike what you use is much appreciated. Sometimes you’d think you’ve created a Holly War on this site by asking a Mathews vs. Hoyt question. I applaud your passion for your individual equipment but sometimes the newby’s just want opinions not arguments and then whatever they choose tell um’ good choice and welcome them into your fraternity. It’s all about the fun and the competition! I can shoot in the 70’s with any golf club on the market. I enjoy my Callaway’s and I am looking forward to my Hoyt! I’m sure the Callaway’s are not my last set of clubs and I’m sure that holds true for my Hoyt but at least I’m jumping into the ring. I hope I’m welcome.

I LOVE THIS SITE!


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*Well, so much for not getting my feathers ruffled!*

*pdq 5oh,*

You wrote, 

"Cast1, what does " He didn't specify a chronograph challenge, but did elude to SOMETHING." mean? "By the way, my Icon ($559), the slowest of the line, was chronographed last week at 287fps. That being at 29.5" draw, 60lbs measured on certified scale, 300 grain cxl 250's," My 60# P38 DC shoots 285 at 29" 375 gr arrow. 318 with a 300 gr arrow. This with 7.25" brace."

Since your having a hard time putting it together, let me take this slow. OK, I'm on the phone with a Mathews tech guy. Still with me here? Gooood. He eludes to some "put your money where your mouth is" event at ATA, OK? Now, breath deeply and try to visualize here. I come here 2 weeks later and read about something that sounds very similar coming from other people whom I have never met. Ok, ready: I WAS SAYING THAT I THOUGHT THE NEWS WAS MORE THAN PURE FABRICATION!!! And hey, whatta ya know, I was *RIGHT!*

Now let me ask you this. Matt McPherson (you know, the engineering genious that started Mathews) probaly has a little change lying around, agreed? Reckon he could afford to run out and pick up one of them faaancy Bowtechs? Heck, maby even one of them there _DC_ models like you got. *DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK FOR ONE MINUTE THAT THE ENGINEERING GUYS AT MATHEWS HAVEN'T BEEN ALL OVER BOWTECH FROM DAY ONE??!!! DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT A COMPANY LIKE MATHEWS WOULD COME TO THE BIGGEST ARCHERY EXHIBITION IN THE WORLD AND CHALLENGE ANOTHER MANUFACTURER THINKING THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY LOSE?* 

Come on! Hey, two and two makes four. One and three makes four. Heck, even 16 divided by four, still makes four. Any way you look at it, it adds up. It looks to me like the folks at Mathews have gotten tired of others making inflated performance claims and have called their bluff. I for one am not ashamed to admit I'm glad to see them draw the line. Can I get an *AMEN?*

As for your speed claims pdq 5oh, you had might as well tell me your truck will get rubber in neutral. Follow, follow, follow the leader.

Brian


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## Mike in Conn. (Jan 5, 2003)

I've been on the sidelines reading for a while, its time to get in the game.

I really am not concerned about who had the fastest bow however I'm a little confused. Maybe someone can make this clear for me.

The IBO on a BKII short is 342-350, I saw the 02 BKII shooting at 350 at last years show so I'm not doubting those numbers. My question is....What bow was Mathews using? Is it a regular production model? If it was the black Max2 its IBO is 330+++++++++++++++++++++++++....If it shot 5fps faster than the BKII, does that plus after the 330 mean 355?


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## Todd Jones (Jan 21, 2003)

so cast 1 what you are saying is Mathews brought a special bow so they could win against one of BowTechs on the rack bows that had 1 inch less draw length and a slightly bigger BH and won by 5 fps.

I think this thread should be dropped. It isn't going to get hashed out hear. Write what you like or dislike (keep it constructive)about one bow or the other and shoot one you like. And especially don't believe everything you hear or read.


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

Look, most of us know the little games some manufactures use to get there estimates that are used for advertisement purposes. You cannot rely on what is marked on a bow's label. Some bows may say they are a 29" draw and they may end up being up to an inch more or less than the sticker says. Same goes for the draw weight and let off...they can be different from what is advertised or what's on a label. 

Unless I'm missing something it sounds like Mathews took the time to check the specifications of the bows in an effort to have as fair of a comparison as they could. Hopefully the bows were close to the same draw length, draw weight and let off and shot an arrow of specific weight. I don't care what the results were but I feel specs must be as equal as possible to have fair test results.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

garopro..
keep reading and learn and enjoy 
most people say the same about bows..shoot what you like...you're like me i don't care what somone else shoots
if you shoot better than me i want to know what i am doing differently not what toy you have that is better than mine..lol..
it is fun if you keep it that way and you will make a lot of friends some folks are just way too serious about some things
you know? lol


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*Special bow???*

Todd,

I don't know where "special bow" ever entered the conversation. My impression is that it was a perfectly stock black max 2. The BK Pro dually Short, according to Bowtech's web site only goes to 29", and claims 350fps at that draw length. The Tall version goes to 30", but the speed rating is the same due the extra inch of brace height. 

The descrepancy in draw length is a mute point because that's the length for which Bowtech gives the 350 fps claim. Now you tell me, how is it that a bow that claims to be 20 fps faster turns out getting outdone by 5 fps when put to the test. Thats the whole issue here.

I don't have a problem with Bowtech per se. I hope they can engineer a bow that will do 450. They just need to be straight with people about it. I'm glad they're out there to keep Mathews on their toes. Heck I even shot a patriot before I bought my Icon. I thought it kicked about like my old Z-max, but it DID shoot hard. 

You know, niether of these are real shooter's bows. They're dragsters; speed freaks that few people would actually sink their money into. 

Although many frown on our spirited little debates, I think it's all in fun at the end. Just like guys arguing chevy and ford, triton and ranger, Mercury and... well there's no argument there.

Brian


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## Indiana_archer (Dec 10, 2002)

You mean theres something besides a Ford????? Everyone shoots a bow because they like that bow. I prefer to shoot a Mathews and trust me I have shot alot of different bows but I always go back to a Mathews so I am sticking with them. I shoot a Q2 right now I have a new Blackmax II comeing. You cant beat Mathews as a company either, Customer service is great they deliver on a timely basis, they have a great tec group and in my mind they are on top for these very reason and have proven themselves tenfold. Matt created Mathews to what it is today and it is a superior company that delivers an exceptional product,no matter what anyone says. Seems to me there are alot of jealous people out there. I bet if you were to talk to some of the guys face to face on the boards there attitude would be totally different. I like Mathews and the company and thats like me.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

I_A you like FORD!!!!!! And I thought you were cool shootin a Mathews and all LOLOLOLOL BTW I was joking know one take offense


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## Indiana_archer (Dec 10, 2002)

No offense taken. My wife owns a transport Montana hehehe,should of bought her a FORD. HeHeHe. This is what I like to see people being able to joke around a little. Oh yeah I am still cool I shoot a Mathews


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*For once I agree!*

Go FORD!!!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

cast1, your attempts at sarcasm were humorous. Stay on the yellow brick road.


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## Todd Jones (Jan 21, 2003)

Cast 1 my point was you said DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT A COMPANY LIKE MATHEWS WOULD COME TO THE BIGGEST ARCHERY EXHIBITION IN THE WORLD AND CHALLENGE ANOTHER MANUFACTURER THINKING THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY LOSE? 
That to me said they might have brought a special bow. And all the stuff you said about Matts reputation and not saying anything he could not back up is true. But are you saying BowTech is dishonest when they brought over a 29 inch bow? I don't think you are I just don't think you thought thru your statement. Do I think mathews would bring a bow they thought they would not win with? No. Do I think BowTech would bring a bow over in "BIGGEST ARCHERY EXHIBITION IN THE WORLD" for them to test and say it was 29 inch draw and it not? No.


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## cast1 (Jan 19, 2003)

*I think your missing my point*

Todd,

No, I do not think Bowtech is dishonest in bringing over a 29 inch bow. In fact I'm sure it was 29". Both bows were measured and agreed as being legit by both parties. What I implied was that the Bowtech, just as it was shot at ATA, was supposed to be capable of nearing 350 fps. It just didn't do it, and I think the Mathews folks knew that it wouldn't do it. That's why they made the challenge.

Brian


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## Indiana_archer (Dec 10, 2002)

*cast1*

you are exactly correct in your statement. Mathews made their point and the fact was proven the end. You know Mathews was sick and tired of lying back and not saying much so at the ATA show they prevailed. There wasnt any special bow. Let by gones be by gones guys. Unless you own stock ineither company what we say doesnt matter. Let the two companies do there business. I for one have shot a number of bows including Bowtech and I went back to Mathews for there superior product and customer service,It surpasses everyone elses not that everyone elses is bad I just experienced Mathews to be better and Have tighter specs and tolerances.


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## Todd Jones (Jan 21, 2003)

Cast 1 I understand what you are saying now. I was standing there when they shot it off and the papers read 30 for mathews and 29 for BowTech. But mathews could have very well have backed theres down to 29 by changing the cam.

Indian archer I shot their BK long brace height at 30 inches and 70 pounds. I did the measuring and it shot 344 through there chrono though. Not 350 and I have never like you seen one do 350 but that is darn close and even in the window.

By the way my shop doesn't carry either line. Can't get mathews and haven't tried for a bowtech line yet.


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## PatD (Oct 18, 2002)

I don't own a pro shop or a Mathews bow or a BowTech bow so my opinion is from a pretty neutral point of view. I normally have a 29.5" draw length, and I shoot with a straight arm (not locked). I shot a Black Knight II with a 30" draw easily. I was not overdrawn, and my anchor was right on. If anything, I have experienced the opposite of the false draw statements. 

Currently, I shoot a PSE Avenger set up at between 29 - 29.5 (not sure as it's not my bow) and I anchor to the same point as with the 30" BowTech. 

Unfortunately, I do not have much experience with Mathews except for drawing back a left-handed MQ1 so I will say nothing other than it drew very nicely and thegrip felt nice in my wrong hand.

It would appear as they both make fine bows. If someone gave me eiher tomorrow, I'd shoot it. 

Both companies seen to have a "cocky attitude"

The one thing that I did notice is in Mathews ads, They seem to claim that they invented everything. I do not know if they did or not, but the line at the bottom of their ad that states something about them inventing the cam and a half in 1993 and proved it to not work.... (or along those lines) 

Wow, talk about a "oh and by the way" - wayyyyyyy after the fact. Unfortunately, this is outright bashing in my opinion, from one company to another and for that simple reason, I will no longer consider buying a Mathews. Not because of their bows, (they seem to make some very good ones) but simply because of the attitude that the company has taken. To outright bash someone else's company using the name of their cam and claiming to have invented it is LAME!!

If you have a great product to offer (and both companies in this thread do) then by all means, be cocky, challenge each other to shoot outs, ADVERTISE!, but don't bad mouth. 


**DISCLAIMER**
The forthgiven information is my opinion based on facts that I know to be true, and first hand experiences. Under no circumstances may this information be twisted, discombobulated, or used against me, Bowtech, Mathews, or Hoyt.


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

I think people may be making the assumption that the Bowtech bow used in the shoot off was a BK2. I don't THINK it was. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm just throwing this out as a possibility. If a VFT was used and the Black Max got 340 fps and the VFT was 5 fps slower, the Bowtech is still right whee it is advertised. The Black Max was just faster than adertised.


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## Cantgetright (Dec 20, 2002)

PatD they all do it just some more obvious than other but they all do it. Darton took a pot shot at Hoyt too Bowtech at Mathews a couple years back hoyt's claims on the Cam .5 is stretching it. look at all the advertisements and you'll be hard pressed to find one that is just about their company and not self serving and some possibly misleading.


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## PatD (Oct 18, 2002)

I only say this as in my limited time being involved in archery, This ad is the only one of such I have seen. 

PatD


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## Cantgetright (Dec 20, 2002)

I think if we like the company we overlook the advertising BS. I enjoy many of the major and small companys equipment. So when I see their advertising I take it all with a grain of salt. I just Go to the shop shoot a few bows and buy what feels best in my hands. Quality equipment speaks for itself. All the rest is simply entertaining.


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## gipper (Jan 22, 2003)

What I don't understand about Mathews the way they introduce new features on their bows. Last year they came out with the string suppressors and the roller cable guard. They played it up and made it sound as though it was the greatest thing in the world. OK fine. But if it is such a "revolutionary" idea, why don't they put it on all their bows? Or at least make it an option you can add or take away if you don't want them. Same thing this year. Only the LX and Conquest 3 have the new "high tech" limb pockets (which look just like what PSE uses). Seems to me if you're going to pay $625-650 for a Q2XL, it should have just as good accessories as a $600 Legacy. Seems like they kind of shoot themselves in the foot with this approach. If you have an idea that will make your product better, then incorporate them into your whole line. The Q2 and some other bows are unchanged since 2000. Not that the bows are obsolete by any means, but if you can make them better, why not. You're still paying the same price. I don't know. Mathews seems to sell enough of them that they don't need to worry. Just seems like maybe they have slipped a few notches in the last couple of years. Maybe it's just me


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## #1 ultra 2 (Jan 19, 2003)

no matter if it was a special bow,if they can make one dont you thnk they can make more!!! as many as they want too,for sure!!AT LEAST THEY DID KNOW HOW TO MAKE IT WORK THE WAY THEY WANTED TOO!!!for all who dare think MATHEWS copied anyone please ask yourself,and be honest here,why did almost every mfgr.with any single cam performance bows have mathews/mathews clone cams AFTER mathews had them!! sounds to me like the pot calling the kettle black doesnt it! truly,if someone else besides MATHEWS is the leader,then why dont they outsell them!!! granted,they have very good marketing strategies,but you cant stay on top selling something that dont perform,no matter how much you spend advertising! one other little item,why did practically every mfgr. jump on the bandwagon on sound reduction AFTER mathews did!!!! GRIPE WHINE OR MOAN ITS ALL THE TRUTH!! remember,the truth will stand even with the world on fire!!!! is someone else the bow technology leader,i think not!!! i believe that they are all a lap or more down and want mathews to run out of gas so they might catch up!!! opinions are like.... well,you know,and this is mine for what its worth!!! P.S....... I BET I AM NOT ALONE IN MY OPINION.AND I DONT SEE MATHEWS RUNNING OUT OF GAS VERY SOON!MAKE MINE A MATHEWS!!if you feel just as strongly about another bow,then by all means,stay with what mfgr you like,but facts is facts and bashing the leader,or any mfgr. isnt helping one thing,now is it???


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## gipper (Jan 22, 2003)

Hey Ultra,
Geez man, settle down. Why do so many shooters act like I just insulted their mother if I say anything other than that their bow is the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you read what I posted, not once did I 'bash' the bows. I just inquired about their strange method of bringing new products to the market. Why they choose only "premier bow" to put their new ideas into effect, yet their most expensive bows are the ones that have remained the same for 3 years (Q2XL, Conquest 2 until this year). Would you pay $50,000 for a race car when the same manufacturer just created a better one for $40,000? I don't dislike Mathews. My old conquest pro was one of the best bows i've owned. They build a fine bow and have had many innovative ideas. I am not crazy about their looks, but function before form is certainly more important. If I had to bash Mathews on anything, it would be the cocky attitude of the people at the company who think their bows are solid gold and if you shoot anything else you must be a moron. Innovative or not, their still a bunch of @$$holes. And now they've resorted to subtle 'bashing' of other manufacturers in the 2003 catalog. You said if they're not the leader, why don't others outsell them? I think PSE would have a word or two to say about sales. Either way, we can say all we want about who build the best, fastest, quietest, smoothest, one cam, two cam, three cam, sexiest, whatever bow. Just remember, any bow will outshoot the shooter, it's who's behind that machine that makes the ultimately makes the difference.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

So who's gonna make the first non stretch string? That would be an innovation indeed! Good shooting. 
Dylan


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## TopPin (Jan 18, 2003)

gipper

I dont think that sales issues is where you want to go here, IMO. There is not a company that is more loyal to their retailers than Mathews. I think that one of the reasons for their success is that you can not find their line of bows in big franchise store's, keeps things strong for the man making a living at the pro shop. You saw what happend to a well known southern bow manufacturer that sold thier bows in every store. People went and bought them from these big stores because they could buy them cheaper, not thinking aboout service after the sale, but lost sales for the pro shops resulted in lost sales for the campany. 
Another company did this and I now see that they came back with a pro shop only line,something catching on here! However there is one company that I have heard through the grape vine that just started selling their whole line to big franchise store's, I wonder what the hard working Mom and Pop proshop owners that handle this line are thinking at night. 
So I think regardless of what some people think of the bows in their line they are doing something right, being true and honest to their retailers ! 
No this is not a cheap shot a big franchise stores, but an awakening to loyalty !


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## cv-archer (Dec 31, 2002)

Just wondering? How many patents does Mathews own? Well of course the own the one cam patent Right? or did they sell it to north american archery a few years back? They own the sound dampening riser right? or did Martin patent it first? They do own the perimeter wieght in their cams though so I guess thats one. I'm sort of new to this so I was just wondering. Might be interesting to see who does hold which patents and for how long.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

I have a question. How many BKII shooters do you see posting with satisfaction? How many BM shooters do you see posting with satisfaction? Does the BM come in a taller brace? Or do they only get the speed with such low brace? I guess that was four questions, for those on the yellow brick road. Give a BM and a BKII tall brace to the AVERAGE guy, and see which he shoots better. The difference in speed won't even be noticeable. My Patriot Dually shoots within 15 fps of the BM, at 61.5#, 29" draw. WITH 7 3/4" BRACE HEIGHT. I can live with 15 fps less, pulling 8.5# an inch less, with 2 1/4" more brace.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Facts*

People want FACTS.........Matthews did not sell the rights to Bear/Jennings..........IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND Bear had a one cam before Mathews existed........Does Matthews own SIMS?...........Who made the first one cam but did not patten it............Martin!!!!!!!!!...........I do not think how fast or what you shoot means a damn thing!!!!!!!! All people want companies to be honest...........That went out of existence a long time ago.........Now exaggerating the truth a lot do...........Sales managers and exectutives in every industry do it!!!!!!!
I can not comment first hand on customer service of Mathews.........but there is one shop near me that sells them. Where I work we do sell Bowtechs..........it is not being one sided just what I hear from customers(maybe they are lying to me) but they are so mad at Matthews that they come to us to try to get warranty work done(WE do not, can not) because the other shop says that Matthews will not honor it or if they send it back it is going to take 4-6 months to get it back.......one customer(maybe he is telling me the truth maybe not) told me he caled Matthews and Matthews told him......that he could send it back but it would take 5-6 months to get repaired and the customer would have to pay shipping both ways before he got it back!!!!!!........Now I can not ascertain if the information is verifiable but I/we have more complaints about the shop/ Matthews that the other shop/ Matthews is our biggest advertiser. One customer told me he was there when The salesman called Matthews and The clerk had to wait for 20 minutes on hold to talk to any one......then as he listened(again coming from the customer....which I can not tell if he was telling me the truth or not)......but he was standing in our store with his Matthews........the clerk from the other store kept saying "but....but......that long.......but it is a defect......can I give him another one?..........but ........but......well ok." The clerk told him that 5-6 months.........he could not give him another one and that to make sure he had his receipt...........and send it in with the bow......and that Matthews would not authorize any dealer to replace ANY defected bow with a new one. Now maybe it was the dealer talking but the customer took his broken bow........threw it in our trash can then said ....."OK what do you sell." i can not nor will I say the above is the truth .........but I had one pissed off customer......who would never buy another Mattews "as long as he lived" or go to the "other" store again.....in the past year.........I have heard, again unsubstantiated, the same story AT LEAST 8-10 times!!!!!!So if it is not Matthews it is the store........and at least 3 times the customer was right there when the clerk called Matthews!!!!!!!


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Who sold who*

Ask archery history who sold/bought the rights to the one cam!!!!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

We need a company built on honesty. Thats what we need. Thats why Martin impresses me, as well as Merlin those are two of the most honest companies in the archery world. Good shooting.
Dylan


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

toxo...I'm new to this board but have been around archery for a long time and I've heard stories over the years about the customer service departments of just about every major bow manufacturer. 

I could tell you a story about every one of them (even Martin customer service) by posting similar stories such as the one you posted above but that would not serve any constructive purpose.

Those of us that have been around archery for a while understand there is a process that an individual can utilize when they have problems at the dealer level or at the company level. That in-between level is the customer representative for your geographic area.

Any time I have had a question or problem with a company or shop the rep managed to take care of the situation to my liking. I think it's a good idea for anyone who is new to archery to know who your local rep is and how to contact them if needed. 

toxo....now I'm gonna tell you a story about a dealer that frequented internet message boards with his negative stories about Mathews.......I was in the market for a new bow and had been out of archery for several years due to a shoulder surgery. I tried to gain as much information as I could about Mathews products and especially about customer satisfaction with the product and service. ....Every time a thread would come up about Mathews I would read through the posts to gain input and every time this same individual would have nothing positive to say about Mathews. This individual was quite convincing and always had a following that would chime in with more negative stuff about Mathews...I had shot several kinds of bows and had my choices narrowed down and Mathews was one of them. I spoke to my dealer about the negative things I had read about Mathews on the internet and I was having second thoughts about purchasing one of their bows. My dealer told me to call Mathews and ask them about the issues I had read about on the internet....WELL, after doing just that I found out that what was being said on internet about Mathews was untrue. Furthermore, this vocal individual who started a lot of the stuff was a dealer who had tried to get a Mathews dealership and was turned down because Mathews already had a dealer in the area. This individual believed Mathews should wave their area stipulations because his shop was much bigger and sold more bows than the existing Mathews dealer in that area....And those who were supporting this individuals negative threads were his customers and friends. So as you can see it appears that some have an agenda.

The best advice I can give to anyone looking to purchase a new bow is to believe "some" of what you read on the internet but take the time to contact the company if you have questions. Also take the time to shoot all the bows you can so you can make up your own mind because some of the opinions found on the internet are biased.


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## tmarch (Jun 7, 2002)

My experience with Mathews warranty work is great. Never had over a week delay on getting parts shipped to repair any bow.


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## TopPin (Jan 18, 2003)

sittingbull

Very well said, I know that Mathews turn around time for warranty work on a bow is one to two days at there place of business and then the bow is on it's way back to the Mathews retailer. Now depending upon where you are located in the U.S., you might have up to Four ship days UPS ground to and from.
I hear stories from my Mathews retailer of the same version you stated, upset shops that cant get the line for one reaosn or another have some pretty good stories to sling !


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## Indiana_archer (Dec 10, 2002)

Mathews warranty turn around is the best in the industry in my opinion. I deal with Mathews on a weekly basis and everyone at Mathews Inc. are top notch. If there is a problem they take care of it and do so in a timely manner.

Dennis


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## Indiana_archer (Dec 10, 2002)

*THUNDERSTRUCK*

Hey THUNDERSTRUCK I got your back. People get bored and I guess you were easy prey but hey I got your back. No harm will come to you man.


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

Hey I_A Thanks man, you would have thought I poked them in the eye the way they jumped on me  Oh well thats how it goes I guess No harm No foul Have A Good One TS


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## LDM (Jan 19, 2003)

Find a bow you like that fits and shoot! I have two Mathews a ZMAX and Ultra 2 that work great for me. I happen to know this product and am not going to drive my self nuts over twelve fps. Bowtech, Hoyt and the High Country Carbon are great bows if they feel good to you and are easy to shoot FOR YOU. These pi$$ing matches are fun to read though.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*ATA Show*

I was there. I didnt see either booths challanging anyone. I liked the LX. Its fast and smooth. Can be 80% unlike Legacy.
I shot Legacy last year and still think it is great bow.
I personally liked Botech wheelie Bow but will wait and post on Botech thread like several here should have done and keep this strictly Mathews.

Conquest Limbs pockets are good touch. 

I will be purchasing and shooting LX. I like the idea of no shock.
I think it will be good seller.

My dealer that I was there for is taking on Botech line and I will have to shoot one before I comment entirely. 

Personnally, I could care less which bow shoots faster. Lets see who helps support the pro shooters the most and whos manfactuers bows win top shoots. I apperciate Mathews helping pros in there sponserships. That is how its done in every sport. Pros need sponserships to compete. If I want answers, that is who I ask. 
I am no way pro but have been around archery for twenty some years and have learned a few things. I shoot what I like and no company forces or advertising will get me to shoot bow that doesnt feel good to me. By the way Mathews are affordable in my state of Ok. No $600.00 bows here unless you want target colors. Conquest last year was $579.00


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Daniel Boone,



> Lets see who helps support the pro shooters the most and whos manfactuers bows win top shoots. I apperciate Mathews helping pros in there sponserships.


Who supports the amateur shooters? Who has a booth at the big IBO shoots?


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

OMG Who Who tell me


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Amatuers*

Im sorry but amatuers are not the best. I beleive pro statis should be reconized. Its that way in ever sport.

Question of concern about LX. Braceheigth is getting under 7".
Is this bow going to be shooter with such short brace heitgh? 6 5/8". That is how they are getting the extra speed.

Whats everyone thoughts on this.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

It will be a shooter if and I mean a BIG if your a shooter But back to the support thing. If I send DB something free then I would be promoting him????/ Man think of all the money Mathews could save if they would "dump" the PROS and just support us lowly AM's LOLOLOL


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## Ausie-guy (Dec 7, 2002)

I just wonder if the Pro's that are using Mathews bows are loyal to them because they are the best.
Or are they loyal to Mathews check book?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Pro shooters*

I have said it many times. Jeff Hopkins can win with most any good bow today. Pros need sponsers to help with travel and exspences. I have no promblem with pros getting sponsered. If I was good enough then I would shoot for who pays me the most also. Is Mathews good bow, Yes. Are there plenty of good bows on marget today, Yes.

Pro are the best. Listen closly, they are the best. They diserve sponserships. There wouldnt be a pro if not for sponserships.

Who makes the most money in any sport. The top pros. 
Its called competition. Being number #1


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Aussie_Guy, For anyone to say they do it because of the bow would be, well wrong. They do it for the $$$$$$. Hopkins could take just about anything laying around and still compete with it. You think M Jordan wears Nike because they make him play better NOOO its the $$$$$$$. ust like DB said they are Pros so let them cash in on it. If Mathews wants to be the company that pays it... Hats off to them. Now if the other companies wanna do the same ,that would be real interesting. God knows that I wish my only problem would be who would pay me the most to promote their product.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Pros pay more?*

Maybe they do deserve it but..............evey time ABC company pays more........we pay more......for the bows, accessories etc!!!!!! In my opinion,"LET THEM EAT CAKE!"


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

CAKE did somebody say CAKE mmmmmmmmmm Yeah toxo your right about the pay more for the ABC products.But then again DEFG products are not that much cheaper, ( aleast not around here)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Look at it like this.*

If you were going to watch archery. Who would you want to watch, Pros or Amatuers. When Im at Kansas indoor Nationals. The pros is who Im watching and same thing at pro-am.


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## TECbownut (Dec 25, 2002)

why is it that mathews seems to be the only NOTICEABLE sponsor? do the other companies not sponsor, or don't believe that the return is big enough? it would seem to me that all companies would gain from sponsoring shooters. i would personally like to see more shooters with a wider variety of brands. that being said from a guy who just bought a mathews the other day. DB i would enjoy watching the amatuers as much as the pros, i don't care as long as i'm watching. i enjoy college football as much as nfl. i like busch racing as much as winston cup. i enjoy going to watch the altoona curve(AAA) as much as the Pittsburgh Pirates. i have found out in my short life here that the best way to learn is to shut your mouth and open your eyes and ears. we could learn and enjoy as much from a pro as an amatuer or a newbie for that matter. as far as sponsorships go it would only stand to reason that the pros would get most of the money.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Mathews pays the big bucks to be able to make the "we win more major tournaments the others combined" claim. The wins are driven by the check book, not the bows. As many have stated before, any top pro can, and will, win with any good bow. They've had great success selling their bows with the big ads. Maybe with the renewed interest in dual cam & wheel bows, up and coming new shooters using these bows will start to make some dents in the claims. But then maybe they'll be "bought" to keep the solocam alive, a little longer.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Matthews*

Bottom Line it is going to be awhile before someone knocks Mathews off the hill. Mathews makes good bow. Like I have said, I can shoot any bow my dealer has and he has several lines. I shoot Mathews because it works for me. Do you really believe everyone is brainwashed and only buys Mathews because of pro shooters. Come on. If you cant beat them, join them. Nothing wrong with one cams. Lets see this weekend at Florida, should be good test.


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## CAJUNBOWHNTR (Nov 8, 2002)

Yes mathews spending money to sponsor the best shooters is a marketing ploy.And it has worked for them.But that alone won't make you the biggest or best bow company.Most folks don't shoot competition,they hunt.Bottom line, mathews has made some of the quietest,sweetest shooting bows out there.Yes they do advertise alot and there is alot of hype.But the bows have lived up to it,otherwise people would'nt keep buying them.As for bowtech,why is it most every bowtech guy is so anti-mathews?I certainly don't have any gripes against bowtech.They make some fast bows for sure,some I like, some I don't care for.But you won't see me on a public forum bad mouthing them.I think the point at the ATA show was that bowtech claimed a certain speed for there bow and it would'nt shoot that speed.



CB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Brainwashed*

Now Cajun you know we are all brainwashed and dont have a qlue to why we shoot a Matthews. It must be because Jeff Hopkins shoots one. No it must be all that advertising. No it must be that we are all rich and money is no object. Actually we are brainwashed. No we shoot them because we like the way they shoot. I was not born yesturday. I know if bow is good or not for me. I quess all those hunters who liked the Legacy so much last year were just dumb archerys that dont have a qlue. 
Seems the ones that bad mouth Matthews the most, promble cant shoot better than Mathews guys any how. Give me a break, Matthews reached the fortune 500 so quick it was silly and they are not leaving anytime soon. Why! They make a good bow and stand behind there products. Free enterprize works.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Well since we are on the subject I dont shoot what the PROS shoot. I have a Q2XL ,Leagacy and soon to be LX. Now if I shoot just what he PROS did then I would have a Rival Pro or Conquest but I just dont like that llong of a bow but that just me. They all make great bows but I just favor the Mathews line NOT because thats what the ADS said I should shoot. I know that Mathews has a BIG ad campaign but do you honestly think thats why they sell so many???/


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*LX Shooter*

You better Hurry to get that brain checked. You must have been encouraged by Mathews advertising. 
Actually the MQ2XL was the best shooting Mathews for me too. I shot the Legacy well last year. I am like you and the shorter axles bows feel better for me. Im just concerned about the short brace heigth on LX. I like atleast 7". Im hoping LX works for me.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

DB yeah I know I ordered 1 any way.The brace height had me worried but ever one that I talked to that excatly shot it says it doesnt shoot like a short brace height. Still keeping that ol Q2XL handy lol I cant believe I am selling my Legacy for the new LX but they say it is 1 sweeeeeet shooter (pray pray) And as far as my brain my wife said that ws gone long ago, LOL


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*LX Shooter*

I sold my Legacy and I think it is the best bow I have ever shot. 
Im dealer shooter so I can always get another. Yeah, I will have a LX to try. I was at ATA show and shot LX. It is smooth like Legacy. Just have to wait until they arrive to test for grouping. I never let the wife know how much I spend. I just buy her diamonds occasionally and that works evertime. I trying to trade or sell my Rival for MQ2XL, should have keep that bow for 3d. Going to get Icon for indoor if I can find good deal on used one or trade in that comes in shop.
Good Luck and let me know. You sound like brainwashed Mathews guy also. Wonder why so many love bashing Mathews, second isnt that bad.
DB


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

YEah DB I was going to sale my Q2XL and get the LX but I got to thinking a Legacy and a LX ? Thats almost the same bow  So I apoted to keep the Q2XL for 3D. We dont have any indoor around here so mainly just a 3D bow and hunting.And the wife thing mine would kill me if she knew half of what I spend. I'll keep my ears open for somebody that might want a Rival. We have buch of guys around here that shoot Q2XL but might be trading them off for the newer bows. The bashing thing I beleive is just natural I used to be one that had to say stuff about B/T but I guess I grew up a little. Finally figured it wasnt the bow that made a shooter it was the shooter that made the bow . I think Hopkins could shoot a lil Brave and still compete ( I know guys there are other shooters that could too) Have a good 1 DB


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## TECbownut (Dec 25, 2002)

would all of you tell me what in the heck you are so concerned over brace height for? i know i am farely new to this forum so my word means nothing but most of you here seem to be seasoned shooters so with that i say forget the brace and just shoot. i can shoot the new Hoyt Supertec just as or better than the new Cybertec or UltraTec.....that is a 1 1/2" difference. less difference than the LX and Legacy. to me the brace is nil with an EXPERIENCED shooter which most of you seem to be. buy the LX forget about the brace height and have a blast.


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## SNOOKS (Jul 20, 2002)

Geez, has everybody forgotten that those bows don't shoot by themselves somebody is holding, drawing, aiming, and releasing. In other words somebody is shooting those bows, it doesn't matter which bow is in those pros hands. It ain't the bow, it's the archer. And what difference does it really make who makes the fastest bow. Who is really going to a 3-D or Indoor shooting some short, fast, hyper bow accurately enough to win top dog. I was at the ATA too, and all I can say is that I laughed out loud when HC's bow blew up, it was great.


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## pinwheel5 (Jun 1, 2002)

Must....buy.....Mathews......Must.....buy.....Mathews.....
Oh no, I too am a brainless twit that has to buy a Mathews just because Joe Pro shoots one.
Must....buy.....Mathews.....
It couldn't be because I like them and shoot them well.
Must......buy....Mathews....

Come on LX, I need a fix!


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

As a Mathews shooter, I think I'm just in adding my 2 cents worth in here. The past couple of years, Mathews hasn't come out with anything "revolutionary". The ideas they have are not new. The thing is, their marketing department is spending too much money & time "buying" more shooters and more layouts in magazines, that they've forgotten what they're supposed to do. If you put the name out there enough and pay the right people to wear your shirts and hats, wouldn't you start to think that that particular bow company might be a good one? To the contrary; they're no different and in some aspects no better than any other manufactuerer out there. The biggest downfall to their line is the fact that their cams eat cables, their factory grips are not good for target/3D. The shape of the grip is that of the hand, which makes it easy to carry through the woods when hunting. Their Zebra strings are a joke and don't do what they're advertised to do. It's kind of funny how the pro's that shoot Mathews, change grips, file the cams and ditch the zebra strings. I don't know about you, but I prefer a bow that you can shoot out of the box.

Now, on the other hand, their bows are quiet, torque free and have very, very little shock. I still don't tihnk that off-sets the excessive limb tip deflection, riser torque string and cable wear. 

It's not the bow people..........it's the shooter behind the bow.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2003)

Mathews has admited to 15% decrease in sales last year and many dealers are reporting over 30% decrease for 2003. Does that tell you anything.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

I guess everyone is catching on to all the smoke and mirrors. I'll admit I was caught up in it and all the advertisements and endorsements. Yeah, they're decent bows, but the abundant advertising really pushes the bows to the top. If they advertised as much.....or as little, as the other manufacturers, I honestly don't think they would be a Fortune 500 company. 2000 was the last time they came out with anything innovative and that was the Q2/Q2XL with dampners and realtree pattern. 
Again, decent bow, *not the best*, just decent. Advertising does it all. I think over the next few years, you'll see alot of pro's signing on with other maufactures, like Jack Wallace recently did.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2003)

I think the Mathews shooters are still shooting those 3 or 4 year old bows, not the new ones.


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## conguest 3 (Feb 4, 2004)

amen cast 1


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## Lxxxxxxx (Feb 11, 2004)

Shirt said:


> *Someone tell me speeds, and sharpish. Like the BlackMax2 or whatever, how fast? Because if it's only 330, well... *


 my turn the black max is amo at 252 at 80 % let off and 330 plus at 50 % let off with turbo cam its at 340 i looked at this bow a lot not becuse i want it becuase i may have go head to head with it one of these times and it has 65 % let off to my guess is at 65% let off it will go 330 plus


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## Lxxxxxxx (Feb 11, 2004)

seems that every time some thing is good about mathews is even said some one has to always bad mouth it .and what gets me pissed about this crap is i havent heard one person on here say any thing good about the bows thay have or some one ealse has nope evey dang time its this bow sucks or that one sucks .I got my Mathews LX becuse thats the way the good lord wanted to be and becuse my mom wanted me to have it mabey some of you here seems to think its all bull about mathews but for me i like my lx so dont like mathews dont say any thing about it My Lord you guys all of you should be thank full for waht you got . some people dont even have the kind of bows we have


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## SmokeyBear (Jan 10, 2004)

*Outback*

I was looking through the postings and saw this one on Mathews. Read through alot of the replies and wanted to add my two cents worth. I was bow shopping and shot alot of bows. Was trying to keep the cost down but wanted something that would last a long time and was comfortable to shot. I went to one store and shot a Mathews Legacy. It shot nice but just wasn't quite what I was looking for. I then shot a Mathews Outback and feel in love. Everyone has a certain brand they like. I shot a Hoyt for many years and loved it. Just haven't shot anything as good as the Outback. Yes the cost was higher but I know I'm getting a bow that will last a long time and is a dream to shot. So go ahead and bash away. The main thing here is be happy with what you shot and enjoy the outdoors. 
Off my soap box and leaving the room.


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## va archery (Feb 17, 2003)

*mathews*

mathews make a lot of good bows . if you do'not like them let it be .as my mother once told me if you have nothing nice to say than say nothing.you will find this get you farther in life. thanks for your time.


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