# top of the line bows



## abundy0014 (Jun 19, 2011)

Hey guys just wanted to know what you guys think of being top of the line when it comes to traditional archery. Im sure widow bows will be up there but curiouse of what others are with them. thanks


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Border
Morrison
Dryad


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Border
> Morrison
> Dryad


I kinda gotta agree 

I'd add high end TRad Tech


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

abundy -

Most high end Olympic ILF limbs (Win&Win, Samick, Flute) are world class. They can be use on a number of "trad" oriented" ILF risers.
The will be more consistent than most "custom" bows out there, but most trad only shooters won't be able to exploit the differences (sorry).

Viper1 out.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Northern Mist, Robertson, Howard Hill Archery, Shrew, belcher/sky. All top of the line, but IMHO no one makes a better bow than Steve Turay at Northern Mist. There are others as good , but none better


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## stoutstuff (Mar 31, 2011)

Arvid Danielson's Black Swan modular...


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

http://www.bowreports.com/index.php/traditionalbowreports.html

Check out Blacky Schwarz bow reports site it will give you the facts about which is top performing bows on the market.:thumbs_up


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Too many good bows to list, really...What suits an individual best is all personal...For a hunting bow, it would be hard to top the TradTech Titan, with a good set of limbs on it, in the take down category...Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> abundy -
> 
> Most high end Olympic ILF limbs (Win&Win, Samick, Flute) are world class. They can be use on a number of "trad" oriented" ILF risers.
> The will be more consistent than most "custom" bows out there, but most trad only shooters won't be able to exploit the differences (sorry).
> ...


Truth.....


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## Crushinweight (Oct 15, 2005)

These would be my choices:

Blacktail
Shafer
Widow.


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## Coastalbendbows (Sep 24, 2011)

Too many choices out there and too many variables for the question you asked. One, two, or three piece longbows? ILF? Or old school "D" shaped bows? Hybrid bows? 

I do see some really fine bowyers listed. Of course I'll add to the list. 

Jack Kempf 
Omega 
And of corse mine that I build 
Coastal bend bows


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

It's a pretty vague question. Recurve, longbow, hybrid, selfbow, ILF, Olympic/target...? In any category, the shooter is going to be the weak link. 

There are so many choices and variables it's really tough to say. You could have ten people choosing from the "top of the line" bows and end up with ten opinions and choices. The thing is there are few bad performing bows made today, it's a pretty well developed field. Top of the line usually comes down to fit, finish, options, and preference over performance. 

I'm most familiar with recurves and longbows of the non-Olympic variety. In that category there are so many well made and beautiful bows it's a shame to even list them since some great bowyers will always be unintentionally left out. Since you say traditional archery I'm assuming you meant wood or wood laminate bows, not a tricked out target rig. The best thing to do is read, read, read, threads on here or especially Trad Gang. See what names keep popping up, look at pictures, cruise the classifeds, do a search or two. 

All of the bows mentioned so far could be considered top of the line but the list so far is just the tip of the iceberg. Of the bows, both recurve and longbow, that I've had, my favorite is a Blacktail Elite recurve by Norm Johnson. But there are so many nice bows I haven't tried all I can say is they are just one to consider. Just like most everybody else, my favorite is what I own, not necessarily what would be your favorite or what you would choose.


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## woodpecker1 (Sep 6, 2012)

21st century lonestar


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Ed Scott makes the best bows without using space age materials. If you want a bow that will shoot as anything else and give you a healthy respect for our ancestors, go get an Owl bow by Ed.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Blacktail, Black Widow, Fox, Schaefer, etc... - great bows - but in my opinions VERY OVER-PRICED.

Tradtech makes some great stuff - i love my Pinnacle riser and Extreme BF limbs - like it better than any of the 3 Black Widows I owned.

Martin Archery makes a good bow - but it too is over priced - a Samick will shoot just as well for less than 1/2 the price.

I think Tradtech has the best of both worlds - you can get a quality wood riser that can be shot off the shelf and not freeze the skin off your hands when late season bowhunting - and you can still put top of the line Olympic qaulity limbs on it - like the TradTech Extreme BF.


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## tradshooter ed (Dec 18, 2011)

bob lee 
widow
older bears


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

"a healthy respect for our ancestors" ???? if that is what you want then go make your own bow - dry some sinew and make your own sting - make your own arrows and stone points - no plastic nocks - no dacron strings, no artificially barred feathers, no laminations, no bowning fletch cement, etc...


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

I am partial to Bamabow and Omega. Got that special place inside for fast R/D longbows........


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Sharp, this year I have done exactly that and it is a great excuse to keep busy while waiting for hunting season and the Fall weather to arrive. About the only thing I haven't done yet is make stone heads but since becoming a member on the PaleoPlanet forum it has been a great experience making my own equipment. 

Can I ask you why you target anyone that mentions a love of primitive archery.

I better get ready to be called a felt capper, lol


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't target anyhone who mentions primitive archery - I just find many that get into the trad police thing to be hypocrites - using dacron strings, laminated bows, plastic nocks, etc... - if you want to get into primitive archery that is cool - but it is different from what most consider traditional archery.


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## Leon Hinton (Jul 4, 2010)

Hummingbird, Hoots, Treadway, Morrison, Centuar, Toleke, RER these are some of the ones I have owned or shot and liked. I like them to look good and shoot good. LH


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## ripforce (Feb 15, 2010)

Its a personal choice if Y want to spend more money on one bow over the other thats your choice! I agree w an above post the price IMO does not always make the bow a better one! Used resale might be better will it shoot better, maybe maybe not! I agree with an above post Ed Scotts bows are some of the most unique bows out there all one of a kind! Now if I could afford one I would pay over a grand for one of those bows! The great thing is that there are a lot of great custom bowyers out there that will build you a great custom bow unique to you at an affordable price! I love Bamas, Nate builds a great bow each one is a one of a kind built to the customers specs and affordable! there are many other great bowyers out there too many to mention: Northern Mist, Holm bows, Great Northern, Timberhawke, Navaho, Dwyer, Kegan's bows, St Joe River bows, Mahaska, Cari-bow I could go on and on!


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Sharp, Explain how did I come off as the Trad Police ??? I just posted that I favor self bows for the money and I believe Ed Scott bows to be premier bows. NO WHERE do I state that if you shoot anything else should be considered UNTRAD. My reference to historical archery is based on the simple fact that self bows have much more in common with what our ancestors used than a modern recurve. I was not trying to prove one is better than the other. 

Some of us have come into the sport because we try to duplicate as best as we can the methods and tools used by our ancestors, what is wrong with that. And what makes you the judge and jury.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Don't forget Centaur!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Fox and Blackbrook are head and shoulders above anything else I have seen or shot. Dryad are great too but some of the "so called" custom bows out there are way over priced for what you get.
The new Titan 19" with a pair of BF Extreme limbs is a great target/hunting set up as well.


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## dabprice (Sep 6, 2011)

Wapiti Bows by Chastain
Black Swan bows
Bear T/D with Chastain limbs


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## 187 BOWHUNTER (Feb 13, 2011)

Blacktail and Stalker t/d and Sauk Trail 1 piece 50's style


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## Barry O'Regan (Nov 2, 2008)

The top of the line bow is the one that puts food on your table!


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## nineworlds9 (Aug 12, 2012)

All the ones mentioned prior have an outstanding rep. Also- Holm-made, Dwyer, Zipper, Leon Stewart, David Miller, Sunset Hill, etc.


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## retro-grouch (Mar 19, 2005)

Hunting or target?


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

Talltines, wes Wallace, shafer


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

there are so many, it's mostly a personal thing....Widow, Fedora, Schafer, etc.....I have shot many..but keep going back to my Schafer Silvertip as my go to favorite bow.....your mileage may vary......whether they are overpriced or not....guess it depends on the person....my 'Tip is worth every penny I spent!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Do we have a definition of "top of the line"?

I plan for my next bow to be one that I made and that's what I hope to be hunting with next year. For me, that's "top of the line".


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## woodpecker1 (Sep 6, 2012)

well mine of course












:wink:


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

I'm in the "one that you shoot the best" camp. I've owned several over the past year and a half from Bears to Fox, I've culled them down to three: My Omega is the one I shoot daily and hunt with the most. I keep a mint old '71 Kodiak Magnum for the shortness in thick brush, and a '67 Tamerlane simply for the nostalgia....


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

a true one off voodoo kustom


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## kymountainman (Oct 22, 2012)

Out of them all Schafer silvertips are my favorite.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I've never shot a Wes Wallace or a Border bow that wasn't outstanding in workmanship and performance. Ed Scott's Owl bows are works of art......that shoot.


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

For me it is a whippenstick Pheonix. Smoking fast and quiet.


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## jasboj (Feb 7, 2011)

My favorite out of all I have shot (which is a bunch) is Dakota bow by Rick welch ! A lot of GREAT bows out there. I'm always impressed with the bob lee bows. They have the BEST feeling grip to me!


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## mtn_goat (Feb 8, 2008)

Stalker by South Cox ! Stalkerstickbows.com. South is a top notch bower building top notch bows. He's a great guy to talk to also !


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

All bows will out shoot the man shooting them....I use to bad mouth expensive bows like widow and Tips but look at the price of BF Extremes...they're $600 or close....everything is expensive anymore...my wife and I went to our favorite restaurant tonight no mixed drinks 2 steaks and baked potatoes no desserts.....$50.00 one hour later in the toilet....


Dewayne


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

vabowdog said:


> All bows will out shoot the man shooting them....I use to bad mouth expensive bows like widow and Tips but look at the price of BF Extremes...they're $600 or close....everything is expensive anymore...my wife and I went to our favorite restaurant tonight no mixed drinks 2 steaks and baked potatoes no desserts.....$50.00 one hour later in the toilet....
> 
> 
> Dewayne


 I suspect some have pissed away more than that..then were greeted with a hangover from hell on their day off.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabow - but you have to admit there is a vast difference between the technology, materials, R&D, etc.... that goes into top of the line Olympic limbs like the BF Extremes by Samick, than what is going on and into those other bows. I am not saying that there is a huge difference in performance - but I owned three Black Widows - all of the same relative draw weight - and none of them could shoot the same arrow as fast as my BF Extremes - and the BF Extremes are tough enough that I can shoot an arrow as little as 5 grains per pound of draw without voiding the warrenty - not so with the BW - BW limbs would be toast if you shoot that light of an arrow and you would void their warrenty if you go lower than 8 grains per pound.

Black Widow (and other such bows) are laminations of maple or bamboo and veneers of various woods with some fiberglass - the BF Extremes are made materials that I suspect are much more costly - bakelight, foam, cross woven carbon, etc...

I dunno - personally - I feel I got more bang for my buck with the Tradtech than with the Widow.

Actually - if you wanted an accurate comparison - you could compare the Tradtech Black Max Limbs which are made out of essentially the same materials as the standard Black Widow limbs - the Black Max limbs are $129.00 - the Black Widow are $606.00 - pretty significant difference in price


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## Bongos (Nov 9, 2011)

The top ones I've owned and shoot, I would have to say Hummingbird and Saluki are rated at the top.. Blacktail is on my list and very hard to find in the Classifieds.. Shrew is another consideration..

If you want production than the Widow and underated Martin Savanna and Mamba bows


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Back on topic lol.. by the way no judgements on my previous post, simple observations of life. 

The DAS Dalaa is a fine completely adjustable setup, its one of the most versatile bows I've ever owned or shot. It can be converted for ILF use as well, further expanding your options. I've yet to hear many complaints about the DAS limbs, mine came in 5.5 lbs heavier than stated due to my draw length, and the length of the limb itself. The adjustable center shot, and draw weight +- 5% is handy, and it has a shelf machined into the riser, and is machined for a screw in type flipper/plunger rest. All AMO mounting holes for quivers (even sights if you choose) are already in place as well as a stablilizer mount. The interchangeable grip option is also a great feature, offering grip styles from ultra low to high to suit your tastes, which cannot be done on a wood bow without knowing what you like ahead of time. So you need to feel/shoot the grip on a wood bow before you buy it. Taking the DAS down is a snap, the case is well made and setup is a breeze. Mine performs better than I ever will and I feel I will never outgrow it skill wise. I have a 21" riser and medium length limbs making it a 64" bow. 

I want a set of long limbs because I have a longer draw length for comfort, that will make it a 66" bow. It's very quiet, much quieter than the Widow PMA II we have, and shoots a few fps faster than the Widow PMA II (both are within 1.5 GPP arrow wise) which I also love. I can say with confidence that when I get another set of limbs I will not have a need to replace this bow for any reason. There is no feasible reason it shouldn't last my lifetime other than getting bored with something and that is human nature. Another feature that's not so obvious is when mated with carbon/foam limbs it's more impervious to moisture and temperature changes than wood (Keep in mind though that most laminated wood bows use a resin in the material that makes them nearly as impervious except when the finish is gone, or the wood/lams get dented damaged). It falls in line with and usually under the cost of most other bows considered high end. The way my bow is setup it's a roughly a $725 bow to replace the whole thing, the Widow is $1000 any way you slice it. A new set of Limbs for our Widow is over $625, which is a considerable amount in my book. I'm fairly confident that the DAS is on par with any bow of similar design out there, and more durable and dependable than an all wood/laminated bow over my lifetime. I didn't say it was prettier..it's a tool and it does what it's designed to do everyday I pick it up, rain, snow or shine. The limb interface is part of the reason it's quiet, it has a rubber mounting surface where the limb meets the limb pad. This keeps it quiet and vibration free in my bow hand. It's a great value in my book compared to anything else out there for $725 new. Buy a couple sets of limbs and you can shoot target with a lower draw weight and a lighter arrow,Have a set for Hunting without any penalty in regard to speed and performance. Have another set for hunting, and you have all your bases covered. I get 195-197 fps through the chronograph at 9 gpp for the DAS Dalaa.. (by the way, Dalaa means "number one" in Native American language) With a D97 string installed and a brace height of 8.25".

The Widow PMA II we have is a great bow, the shorter 18" riser and longer working limbs (how they are made is also crucial it's not just length) make for a silky smooth draw and stack free, even at my longer draw. It's very well made and it's very comfortable to shoot. The riser is 3" shorter than my DAS, the extra limb length makes up the difference to make a 64" bow. We have the standard grip, and the bow is fitted with all AMO mounting options as well. The speed of the Widow is 194 fps at nearly 10 gpp (grains per pound of draw weight) and it's equipped with a D97 string. It's noticeably louder even at 10gpp or I perceive it to be louder while shooting than my Dalaa . When my wife shoots the bow it's not as loud (but keep in mind her draw length is considerable shorter than mine) I'm using the widow spider string silencers, and the brace height is currently set at 8 3/8" The Widow is a great bow and it has a stellar reputation for good reason. It costs more than my DAS is it worth it? yes, because I feel comfortable shooting it, and I have confidence in it, and I blow more than $20 a week over the course of a year on things that I get absolutely no return on. The PMA II will still be around and ready when I want it, or need it. Unlike the $20 a week I waste on my entitlements. So in closure, is the Widow as versatile as my Dalaa? No..is it more accurate? No... is it faster? No, but whatever it may lack it makes up for in smiles and style, just like my Shovelhead motorcycle. But that's another story and another opportunity for me to be judged. 

Have fun making you choices..the good thing is, no matter what it won't be your last and final choice.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> vabow - but you have to admit there is a vast difference between the technology, materials, R&D, etc.... that goes into top of the line Olympic limbs like the BF Extremes by Samick, than what is going on and into those other bows. I am not saying that there is a huge difference in performance - but I owned three Black Widows - all of the same relative draw weight - and none of them could shoot the same arrow as fast as my BF Extremes - and the BF Extremes are tough enough that I can shoot an arrow as little as 5 grains per pound of draw without voiding the warrenty - not so with the BW - BW limbs would be toast if you shoot that light of an arrow and you would void their warrenty if you go lower than 8 grains per pound.
> 
> Black Widow (and other such bows) are laminations of maple or bamboo and veneers of various woods with some fiberglass - the BF Extremes are made materials that I suspect are much more costly - bakelight, foam, cross woven carbon, etc...
> 
> ...


I guess you are neglecting to include that the BW limbs are made in the USA? By Americans? Go to Nixa and tell those employees that story. Ken I've been associated with you for quite a while, and I have had many, many heated debates with you on the LW where you feverishly defended Widows while I attacked them. Now I own one..life is funny ain't it? I could cut and paste those conversations if you'd like? It's human nature to bad mouth something old in favor of something new, the question at hand is about top level bows and Widow has a piece of the market whether you or I, or anyone else on this forum for that matter, love them, or hate them, either way. They have a lot of history, even with new ownership. So don't compare Apples to Kiwi anymore. Thanks


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Mo0se said:


> I guess you are neglecting to include that the BW limbs are made in the USA? By Americans? Go to Nixa and tell those employees that story. Ken I've been associated with you for quite a while, and I have had many, many heated debates with you on the LW where you feverishly defended Widows while I attacked them. Now I own one..life is funny ain't it? I could cut and paste those conversations if you'd like? It's human nature to bad mouth something old in favor of something new, the question at hand is about top level bows and Widow has a piece of the market whether you or I, or anyone else on this forum for that matter, love them, or hate them, either way. They have a lot of history, even with new ownership. So don't compare Apples to Kiwi anymore. Thanks


Border is producing limbs in a country with even higher labor and materials cost, and they are producing the highest performing recurve limbs in the world. Not to mention their TD and one-piece bows, for the same or less money then a new BW.

BW is successful because of their history; innovation, value and quality have little to do with it.

-Grant


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I agree on 90% of what you said however I own a set of black max carbons,and they are a good limb,speed feel,no stack all for 219.00 the regular black max is about 3-5 fps slower but who cares about speed anyhow....I know the BF extreme limbs are nice but so are widows...I just sold a set of Hoyt F7 carbon Foams and pound for pound they were 2 fps faster than my widow...the F7 carbon woods were exact same speed...I can't knock widow they build an awesome bow and have stood the test of time...building bows since 1957 and USA made.....I've been hearing rumors that Samick was in financial trouble??? 

I've owned almost every bow made I'll stand behind my widow...tough bow that shoot good for me.

Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Moose - I went to Black Widow back in 2000 or 2001 and toured the factory and attended the clinic and one of the workers there who was there for almost 10 years told me that he was making a whopping $8.00 an hour! But that is besides the point - this was not about where the bows were made it was about quality and what you get for your dollar.

Black Widow is a well made bow - but for the $$ - you can get much more bow from Tradtech


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Dewayne - I agree Black Widow makes a nice bow, but my Pinnacle with TT Extreme BF limbs is faster, quieter, adjustable, and toughter (allows for lighter arrows) and it was hundreds of dollars less than my PSAX was. Funny that you mention that about Samick - I heard the same thing about BW and that Roger is even on the floor working because they had to let guys go - who knows - both stories are likely bs.


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## 187 BOWHUNTER (Feb 13, 2011)

50's style, PineHollowLongbows
modern t/d, Blacktail


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree....which that's ok...I talk with Roger or Toby every week they are great guys that hunt,fish,pay taxes and employ USA citizens!!!! That's not the reason I shoot the BW I shoot them because they are good bows and I like beating people shooting those "better" bows!!!


Dewayne


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

grantmac said:


> Border is producing limbs in a country with even higher labor and materials cost, and they are producing the highest performing recurve limbs in the world. Not to mention their TD and one-piece bows, for the same or less money then a new BW.
> 
> BW is successful because of their history; innovation, value and quality have little to do with it.
> 
> -Grant


Value and quality have everything to do with it, or there would be no history. They would not be in business otherwise.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Value and quality have nothing to do with a product that's been in business since 1957...we don't know what the labor standards are over there...we don't know how much he's paying for materials...they make a great product but they're not cheap...

Look on eBay and see how many BW bows are on there still shooting that are over 30 years old....


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Black Widow are good bows and without a doubt in the top of the line, but there are many bows that are just as good and some that are even better - but - when you get to the top of the line - you are splitting hairs


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

When the technology and design stop improving but the price keeps increasing, then I fail to see where the value is.

I guess I just prefer getting a bow which has the best possible materials and design, not something which was state of the art 20 years before I was born. History don't mean much to me, results do.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well - you can't argue with Black Widow Results - the bow was designed decades ago and it is only a few fps faster than the top of the line Olympic limbs with the same weight arrow and they draw smooth as heck. I just think that they are overpriced considering you can get a bow that is slightly better for less $


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I totally agree...Black Widow Bows are over priced...no questions asked....but they are cheaper than a nice Tip,Blacktail,Morrison,Tall Tines, and other than a Tip hold their value very well....there are ALOT of good bows out there including TT..

It all comes down to customer service...Black Widow wrote the book on great customer service...they are a Co... If one of the main people like Bob Morrison,Dave Windauer,Norm Johnson,Brain Wassell, would happen to get really sick or God forbid die then their company is also dead and so is your warranty and customer service....

ALOT of good bows out there no doubt but you can't go wrong with Widow..


Dewayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I still say that Blackbrook and Fox make the best bows I've ever seen or shot but BW have a huge cult following and I do think its the sense of American tradition that keeps bringing people back. I know guys that own a rack full of them and won't shoot anything else. As an old advert in Britain said "they do exactly what it says on the tin", you buy it, you string it, you shoot it and it won't let you down. My gripe with BW is that for what is just a semi custom bow like Bear or Martin, they charge wayyyyyy too much. The dream catcher is every bit as good and half the price. A top end custom recurve by Fox is still cheaper. My Blackbrook TDRC worked out to $1200 but that is not even in the same league. There is nothing even close to that available over here


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

My rack full of widows are all customs I ordered the grip,the poundage,the wood,the riser,the inlays,the tips,red glass or not,length..how much more custom could it be??.they will even let me hand pick my wood.I've never even heard of a Black Brook..might be the greatest ever but must not spend much on advertising...which again is part of the BW price tag.

I will take my widows...


Dewayne


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

grantmac said:


> When the technology and design stop improving but the price keeps increasing, then I fail to see where the value is.
> 
> I guess I just prefer getting a bow which has the best possible materials and design, not something which was state of the art 20 years before I was born. History don't mean much to me, results do.
> 
> -Grant


 While I can understand and respect your point, It doesn't matter how much performance you squeeze out of a bow or limb design, it's always up to humans to do their part. Regardless of the name on the bow. The performance differences and material differences are very negligible at the end of the day. There is nothing innovative or bleeding edge out there in terms of a recurve or longbow. There will always be limits on the equipment we choose to love and use. That's just physics..while materials change and you can gain a few fps, it doesn't matter much at our effective ranges. Most of the time in 3D I've had to add weight and leave arrows full length, negating any real performance benefit for point on distance. It's a tradeoff... 30 yards and under is where most of us ( When I say us I mean IBO and ASA 3D shooting and Hunters) spend our time, sans the FITA and NFAA folks. Take Brady Ellison or another champion.. Dave Wallace shooting wood arrows and a longbow..Rod Jenkins, Rick Welch, and many many others for example, it really wouldn't matter what setup you gave them or how much stored energy, or ft lbs performance, or dynamic efficiency figure looked good, or what brand it is..it's always the person behind the string.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Mo0se said:


> While I can understand and respect your point, It doesn't matter how much performance you squeeze out of a bow or limb design, it's always up to humans to do their part. Regardless of the name on the bow. The performance differences and material differences are very negligible at the end of the day. There is nothing innovative or bleeding edge out there in terms of a recurve or longbow. There will always be limits on the equipment we choose to love and use. That's just physics..while materials change and you can gain a few fps, it doesn't matter much at our effective ranges. Most of the time in 3D I've had to add weight and leave arrows full length, negating any real performance benefit for point on distance. It's a tradeoff... 30 yards and under is where most of us ( When I say us I mean IBO and ASA 3D shooting and Hunters) spend our time, sans the FITA and NFAA folks. Take Brady Ellison or another champion.. Dave Wallace shooting wood arrows and a longbow..Rod Jenkins, Rick Welch, and many many others for example, it really wouldn't matter what setup you gave them or how much stored energy, or ft lbs performance, or dynamic efficiency figure looked good, or what brand it is..it's always the person behind the string.


Have you ever shot one of the current crop of really high performance recurves? I mean Border Hex, Morrison Max1 or Dryad ACS RC?
No comparison with 60s geometry and materials. I'm not talking about speed either, speed is easy.

Until you've experienced how much better its really hard to explain. But look at the records falling in various Trad classes. I'm sure its not because of better archers or technique (those old guys can shoot!). They all have one thing in common, they aren't being beaten by 60s designs.

World Archery 3D world championships have a class written for wooden take-down NON-ILF and one-piece recurves. Its not being won by BW bows. The winners are shooting custom risers designed to use ILF limbs but without the adjustments. Its easy to see why, the limbs are so far beyond what other bowyers are doing. You can buy a set of limbs equal to those on a BW for about $130. You can get a set of limbs hand-made in the USA with better tech then any BW for about $350.

I guess they aren't hurting for people to buy their bows. I'd just rather get something prettier, faster and more forgiving. A Border TCS Black Douglas would fit that bill and then some.

-Grant


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> My rack full of widows are all customs I ordered the grip,the poundage,the wood,the riser,the inlays,the tips,red glass or not,length..how much more custom could it be??.they will even let me hand pick my wood.I've never even heard of a Black Brook..might be the greatest ever but must not spend much on advertising...which again is part of the BW price tag.
> 
> I will take my widows...
> 
> ...


Andy doesn't sell bows in America Dewayne but ask any European. Not much gets won over there that isn't By Blackbrook bows.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Grant, since The bows you are shooting are so much faster,and better performing why aren't you showing up at all the IBO and ASA,NFAA and all the other competition events rewriting history???.

I've shot against a ton of guys shooting Dryad,Border,Hoyt, using my BW and my 60 s technology bow seems to hold it's own....I'm not wanting to come across like I'm being some smartass but I'm just stating the obvious....you're the one saying that if you're not shooting the latest then you certainly can't compete.


Dewayne


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> Grant, since The bows you are shooting are so much faster,and better performing why aren't you showing up at all the IBO and ASA,NFAA and all the other competition events rewriting history???.
> 
> I've shot against a ton of guys shooting Dryad,Border,Hoyt, using my BW and my 60 s technology bow seems to hold it's own....I'm not wanting to come across like I'm being some smartass but I'm just stating the obvious....you're the one saying that if you're not shooting the latest then you certainly can't compete.
> 
> ...


Won all the NFAA events I entered in Washington last year and set a new indoor record, with an older set of Border limbs. Don't have the money to travel unfortunately, it would be fun though.
Allan Eagleton seemed to do really well with his Borders at the WA Field championships, considering it was his first year going.

Its 95% the nut holding the string, better equipment just keeps that nut tighter.

-Grant


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Andy doesn't sell bows in America Dewayne but ask any European. Not much gets won over there that isn't By Blackbrook bows.


Check out the website, www.blackbrook.eu


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

It really is the monkey holding the string that makes the difference that's for sure.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Bigjono said:


> It really is the monkey holding the string that makes the difference that's for sure.


Or Pom as it were. 

Matt


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Grant...I'm confused....one post you're talking about it's the equipment 100% then the next post you post the truest statement ever told on archery talk " it's 95% the nut holding the string"

I know equipment helps but let's face it equipment is only 20% of the mix...a good shooter could take a limb out of an apple tree and beat the 75% of the rest of the shooters.


Dewayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Or Pom as it were.
> 
> Matt


A monkey holding a Pom, that's just wrong


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> Grant...I'm confused....one post you're talking about it's the equipment 100% then the next post you post the truest statement ever told on archery talk " it's 95% the nut holding the string"
> 
> I know equipment helps but let's face it equipment is only 20% of the mix...a good shooter could take a limb out of an apple tree and beat the 75% of the rest of the shooters.
> 
> ...


5% is huge at the top as I'm sure you know. Especially indoor IMHO.

-Grant


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

As for long bows , many have come and gone. And the rack is far from empty , but nothing has yet to match the Hummingbird . And yet for some silly reason I keep searching LOL


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

It's not the bow it's the Indian - never more true than in Traditional archery. When 'High end' come to mind I think pretty veneers and a nice smooth drawing bow with nice lines. A beautiful longbow or classic recurve. Exactly what I would not take into the field and beat up. I have a Tradtech Titan III which is about as good as it gets for a metal ILF riser - works great, absolutely functional, easily tuned, best shooting bow I have ever owned......it reminds me of a plastic stock on a rifle - yuck - but, it shoots so darn good that it is my main bow. The fact that is shoots so nice and I can easily change limbs make it 'top of the line' for me. Looks have to take a back seat over performance.


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## MotherLode (Dec 9, 2005)

I like wood in my hands, whether it be in my bow hand or draw hand , and the last thing I want is moving parts or just a pretty bow. We have some fine bowyers out there making some great performing bows with great detail to what dictates being a great shooter to just something pretty launching arrows as some have suggested. Shoot what you like and what you enjoy


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Looks certainly does take a back seat to performance and customer service....


Dewayne


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> Ken...I agree on 90% of what you said however I own a set of black max carbons,and they are a good limb,speed feel,no stack all for 219.00 the regular black max is about 3-5 fps slower but who cares about speed anyhow....I know the BF extreme limbs are nice but so are widows...I just sold a set of Hoyt F7 carbon Foams and pound for pound they were 2 fps faster than my widow...the F7 carbon woods were exact same speed...I can't knock widow they build an awesome bow and have stood the test of time...building bows since 1957 and USA made.....I've been hearing rumors that Samick was in financial trouble???
> 
> I've owned almost every bow made I'll stand behind my widow...tough bow that shoot good for me.
> 
> Dewayne


not quite right to pick on the slowest brand of limbs on the market and say your up there with the best.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Border bows...explain yourself.....I'm kinda lost at your last response...are you saying TT or Hoyts???? I'm a BW fan as you can tell and mine shoot as well as any I've ever owned and I've either owned or shot most...


Dewayne


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbs are viewed in the market place by thier pricetag.
Just because the TT limbs are $219 and the F7s are $600. doesnt mean that they are not equal.
afterall, what actual tests have you seen for vertical and horizontal stability or speed for these two limbs.
Both have a large glass content as far as i know. (just saw inside a F4 limb posted on FB and it seriously looked like plain old black glass on the belly)
so nothing technically advanced there. and as far as i know, thats the same as the TT $219 dollar limbs.
SO for your money, i would say that the Widow limbs are better. since they are clear glass over a exotic vaneer BOOKMATCHED.Skill and time needed for that one.

Now if your going to have to sacrifice the stunning looks of a vaneer (PROPPERLY bookmatched) clear glass over vaneer, it best be for a good reason.
I havent seen that in many limbs.
Bob Morrisons Max1 limbs would beat most limbs out there especially for this category of AT. Smooth beyond all mass market ILF limbs for short risers. so as for quality of pull and build hard to beat. I would take his limbs before i took a Widow. but thats my opinion... below is my reasons

A review done by a guy on TT, stated that there are limbs out there that will put 11fps on Skys top limb. a thread here on AT someone put 18fps on the Hoyt 990TX, and on a UK based forum someone put 14fps on a Inno EX power all with the same model of limb.
so saying your widow was 2 fps slower than a hoyt, means your widow was 18fps or so slower than other limbs out there.
18fps is nearly 10%

Exotic vaneers are HEAVY timbers. and clear glass is the only way your going to get it on a recurve, BUT thats been done for LOTS of years. so id say for top dollar, i cant see where the R&D is going.
top dollar limbs in my view should include the best of materials, best of geometry, and best of craftsmanship.
in my view glear glass over vaneer is old school. but skilled
Earl hoyt profile is old school.
BW limb profile is not exactly new though?
but thats my view.
thats why i think people are saying they are over priced. 
Top dollar pays for R&D, Materials, and craftsmanship. How much of these are in your limbs.
i supose top dollar also pays for name.

if a top dollar limb and a cheap limb all come off the same former. then what are you really getting for your cash?

Bobs limb is not clear glass over vaneer. Its not your usual profile provided by everyone else. and its trying something, not repeating the same old same old just in a new colour.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sid, I appreciate your response,although I truly don't understand all of it....I'm assuming you are BorderBows...and I'm assuming if you are truly a businessman such as I who employ 35 people and have since 1989 knows what it takes to manufacture anything and what all has to go into the price.

Black Widow has ALOT of overhead I'm sure because they are a legitimate company like Hoyt and Maybe BorderBows I just don't know about you but in business most people charge what the market will bare...years ago Black Widow was the most expensive bow money could buy and they only had brown and grey action wood...they were only the most expensive for a very short time because the others realized if they can get that much money for a bow then why can't we...and now every bow here is $750-1500 with no regards to proven designs...materials,or more than one guy and a grinder working out of his basement or garage.

Once again I'm sure you have a good following and offer a good product...

Dewayne


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

yes i agree. we are a ligitimate business. 10 members of staff producing 1000 bows a year.
we have been making bows since 1940. we own world titles in field clout and flight. we have our ip in almost every top end ilf limb out there. any limb with cross weave carbon running at 45deg to the limb. from the extreme bf. to the inno. all have our xp10 concept in it.
in 2003 Mr Park sent us a fax, asking to buy our laminates which at the time were the same layup as the extreme bf.
s2 glass. cross weave carbon and the ud carbon.
this construction was running back in 2001.
these materials are not cheap. they make bow glass look like mild steel does to titanium

Sid


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## fisher2 (Oct 29, 2012)

i like to consider my custom hornes bow pretty top of the line but i haven't had the pleasure of shooting any foam filled carbon space age limbs


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Fisher2 
We like putting limbs on 2 weight scales. Limb making an arch.
limb tip on one scale. limb butt on another.
our bow model can be pritty close and models speed, energy... etc based on working limb mass. string mass. arrow mass ect. the model works on a basis of a glass limb with a working mass of about 3000 grains and a true carbon limb with a working mass of 2200 grains.

so this can be exposed in a 2 weight scale test.
total limb mass on ILF limbs comes in at about 190-200 gramms for a glass limb or a carbon/glass limb. While true carbon limbs come in at about 145-155gramms. these numbers are for meduims/longs approx.
you can show the weight distribution with two scales.
Your wanting the bulk of the weight to be in the limb butt.
light mass limbs give less hand shock. Faster arrow speeds through higher efficency.
this is one reason why most carbon limbs are not really showing any performance gains over a glass limb as in most cases both limbs have over 0.040" of composit back and belly with a normal size core up the centre. as most are carbon under glass. this glass content is like an anchor that holds back the carbon.

Most bows all show the same DFC too. Bulge of preload out to about 20" then dips into the start of stack.
this is the standard DFC meaning little to no progress in design as that is what glass/wood core is capable of without turning noodly.
to get this DFC, the bows geometry all requires about the same kind of setup. most bows all run about a 8" BH for a 62-64" bow. there are none that really vary (for a recurve) thats because of the YEARS of R&D that have gone into glass over wood.
That R&D has been paid for and the garage bowyer is not really advancing on this. as they all buy from the same shops. Gordon Composit, Bingham etc. buy the same ingredients and your making the same product.
all this is a simple limitation of the industry in my view.
in which case id buy the prittiest bow i could. and there are a couple of stunners around.

This is my view at least...

there are bows out there that have a preload bulge out to 26", run at sub 7" BH for a 62" bow, and pull smoother through 29-30" than a 70" target bow. 2.2lbs per inch for the 70" vs 1.95lbs per inch for the shorter bow for equal draw weights in that last inch of draw.
this is new territory for bow design. people claiming let off feeling from a recurve.
not many bows are seriously nocking on the 200fps finger shot 9gpp at 28" from a Hill style glove.


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## chaseburch (Dec 12, 2012)

In the custom category I would list Dakota,black widow,belcher, Morrison,fox. On another subject hoyt,tradtech,predator,and das/3riversarchery all manufacture great bows at slightly cheaper prices especially if u like aluminum riser bows.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Border, Dryad, Morrison... in that order.


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