# ASA Field Archery Round



## Archery Power (Feb 4, 2005)

What if we had a ASA Field and Hunter Rounds, This would solve the problem that we now have with the time it takes to
shoot a NFAA Field Round, 1 Arrow per target, Drop the 45 Yard walk and the 80 yard walk and pick up a 70 yard target 
and a 75 yard target, all marked distance , Bird shot target would be 10 yards, The hunter round would all be shot from
the field stakes, 1 arrow = 20 points 1 14 target round = 280 1 28 target round = 560 No X would be scored as 6 points
All targets must have at least 2 people on the shooting line at one time and if possible shoot 4 abreast, The best thing of
all we would not have to stay on the range for 8 hrs. to shoot a round. And guess what we would not have to get the
the OK from all of the NFAA state directors, Just get the ASA to go for it is all we need to do, I think the ASA could pull
this off without a lot of arguments. And the ASA could set their own targets up and would not have to use the NFAA
targets.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

Archery Shooters Association, It does roll off the tongue just a little bit smoother, I don't know about the 1 arrow target
It might work better with a 2 arrow per target with a 10 points per arrow.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

yall just wanna re-invent the wheel, dontcha?

the international round takes about 4hrs to shoot when you include a lunch break at the half.

3 arrows per target, 20 targets. max score 300 and 60x. 20 to 65yds and all the targets are straight forward non-confusing. shot on the hunter face. 

if you want to get creative, make an 'outdoor target' round. same as the international round but using the field face. we already have the lake-of-the-woods round that uses the vegas/WA colored faces at the same distances and arrow amount.


unfortunately, the power that is, is content to let rome burn rather than see, adapt and thrive to the changes of priorities in the general existance of human-kind. kinda of like sowing the seeds of demise.


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## Archery Power (Feb 4, 2005)

Rock Monkey, Not trying to re-invent anything---Don't think that was the subject of what rounds we already have I think all of us old
Field shooter know what rounds that we have shot in the past By the way I did not see you up in Ill. when pse put on the lake of the woods
shoot, The name came from a park in ill. by the name of Lake of the woods started by PSE Pete Shipley Himself but you would not know
any thing about that since you are not that old. Now back to the subject and that is what would happened if ASA would put on a field shoot
ASA style only at marked Yards, now do you understand this time.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

umm, i started competitive shooting in 77


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## Archery Power (Feb 4, 2005)

Rock Monkey we also used the lake of the woods round in the Professional Archery Association ( PAA )Also the International
Round was used by the PAA in the early 70's on a V formatation. Lake of the round was I think the first time I shot it was
1974 and also shot it in 75, 76,77. 1977 was the last time I shot it. This was put on by pse Pete Shipley. The only reason I brought
this up about ASA and a Field round is a lot of the guys have been talking about the time it takes to shoot a Field Round, and the
amount of arrows they have to shoot, But for me personal I like the Field round just as it is. I would not change one thing about it.
Only I wish we had a lot more shooters but we don't. One thing for sure you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

the provisions to improve are there but, as you said, you cant make them drink. if you hold their heads under water long enough, you can eliminate future problems.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> yall just wanna re-invent the wheel, dontcha?
> 
> the international round takes about 4hrs to shoot when you include a lunch break at the half.
> 
> ...


I've competed in a lot of "international round" tournaments where the FIELD face was used. Some used "expert scoring" (5-4-3-2-1), but most used "standard" scoring. (5-4-3-). I've also competed in some that use the field face for the 1st 30 arrows and the hunter face to finish 'er up, too.
It is a fun round, and what is nice, is you can use the existing field courses if you want to simply by skipping the targets that are set for the wrong distances....or, what most clubs do is to lay out their practice area for 20-65 yards in 5-yard increments. Mow the area, weed whip around the bales, and takes about 10 minutes to set up target faces. Very inexpensive to set up, since the target costs are very cheap indeed.
It is highly competitive, and you gotta watch your p's and q's, too.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Archery Power said:


> Rock Monkey we also used the lake of the woods round in the Professional Archery Association ( PAA )Also the International
> Round was used by the PAA in the early 70's on a V formatation. Lake of the round was I think the first time I shot it was
> 1974 and also shot it in 75, 76,77. 1977 was the last time I shot it. This was put on by pse Pete Shipley. The only reason I brought
> this up about ASA and a Field round is a lot of the guys have been talking about the time it takes to shoot a Field Round, and the
> ...


The OLD "PAA Round" was an absolute hoot to shoot. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any of those target faces anywhere. It, too, was a 20-65 yard marked distance round. 3 arrows per target. It had a huge spot on each target with a gray "X" marked in the middle of the white spot that could be seen from the shooting line. We would take pencils and mark off a square on the legs of the "X" and shoot for X's, which were any arrow inside that square...for a nickel or dime an "X". You paid everyone that beat you a nickel or dime for each "X" they beat you by. Obviously the guy with the lowest "X" count paid everyone, and the guy with the highest "X" count got money from everyone. More fun than a barrel of monkeys, and a lot of the time we weren't thinking at all about "score"...we was thinking about winning those nickels and dimes...and the "score" took care of itself! HAHAHAHA.
Shooting a perfect 300 on the OLD PAA target wasn't all that easy because you'd get complacent what with that big white dot to aim 'around' and forget your form. Saw many compound/release shooters drop a lot of points on the OLD PAA round.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

field14 said:


> The OLD "PAA Round" was an absolute hoot to shoot. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any of those target faces anywhere. It, too, was a 20-65 yard marked distance round. 3 arrows per target. It had a huge spot on each target with a gray "X" marked in the middle of the white spot that could be seen from the shooting line. We would take pencils and mark off a square on the legs of the "X" and shoot for X's, which were any arrow inside that square...for a nickel or dime an "X". You paid everyone that beat you a nickel or dime for each "X" they beat you by. Obviously the guy with the lowest "X" count paid everyone, and the guy with the highest "X" count got money from everyone. More fun than a barrel of monkeys, and a lot of the time we weren't thinking at all about "score"...we was thinking about winning those nickels and dimes...and the "score" took care of itself! HAHAHAHA.
> Shooting a perfect 300 on the OLD PAA target wasn't all that easy because you'd get complacent what with that big white dot to aim 'around' and forget your form. Saw many compound/release shooters drop a lot of points on the OLD PAA round.


On the other hand, I saw a BH style shooter shoot 292-298-298-299 in the PAA nationals in the late 80's in St. Louis. That's BH as in no sights, no stringwalking, and 12 inch stabilizer.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

PAA only had Freestyle compound and Freestyle recurve no bowhunter style


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

If you want to shoot that type of round for fun.....have at it. I wouldn't take my bow out of the case to do it. If I want to shoot one arrow at a target I will start shooting 3D again or just hunt.

Stop with all the crap about taking forever to shoot a round....its RARE. I have been shooting field for over 13 years and have been on a range ONCE for more then 6 hours. 

It doesn't take that much more time to shoot the avg field round...unless your in a group that is dickin around or don't have enough brass ones to get the group in front of you going....then it does to shoot a 3D round. 

If you don't want to shoot field the way it is now...then don't shoot it. If you only have time to shoot a half...then shoot a half. FITA rounds take all day....nobody complains. 3D shooters take 10 mins to shoot one arrow and carry freakin stools....on the course for 3-6 hours to shoot 20 arrows....but take 5 hours to shoot a 112 arrows in a field round....and that's a slow group. Oh no...its too long.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

distributor said:


> PAA only had Freestyle compound and Freestyle recurve no bowhunter style


Yes, you are absolutely correct! That did NOT stop other clubs from using their own system that normally went along with what the NFAA had set up. 

In addition, the PAA had a very structured system for getting into the PAA (couldn't just pay your money and waltz into the PAA), a very structured DRESS CODE, an enforced Code of Ethics. You also had to maintain a certain level of scores, indoors and outdoors, AND...had to attend a minimum number of sanctioned PAA events in order to maintain your membership as a member of the PAA. The recommendations from other PAA members weren't just handed out like nickels and dimes, either. There was no such thing as BH in the REAL PAA.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

I can hit every yardage with a range finder, hit every angle with an inclinometer, enter that into my palm, set my sight(including all the walk ups), and still finish in 4hrs or less. Oh, and that's spotting after every shot. No rushing, enjoying and having fun, and still shoot mid to upper 50's consistently. Let's speed up 3D....2 minute minimum, no glassing once at stake(come on, they are all the same animals and rings haven't moved), and your time starts after the guy before you hits the target, so no glassing at the stake after the shot. Don't say 2 minutes ain't enough...you get 2:30 for 3 shoots in Vegas, and :30 in a shoot off in FITA, so don't play the wind game in 3D either! You want to put a time limit on F/H rounds, so lets put one on ALL of them!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

itbeso said:


> On the other hand, I saw a BH style shooter shoot 292-298-298-299 in the PAA nationals in the late 80's in St. Louis. That's BH as in no sights, no stringwalking, and 12 inch stabilizer.


THe PAA was long since defunct by the later 1980's...in fact the PAA went out of existence sometime around 1973-1975 or so! 
He may have been shooting in BH at an "NFAA type shoot" that was using the OLD PAA targets/round...but not a "PAA Nationals." That kind of score with BH, no sights, no stringwalking??? I dunno so much whether I can buy that or not; seems very higly exaggerated to me.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> If you want to shoot that type of round for fun.....have at it. I wouldn't take my bow out of the case to do it. If I want to shoot one arrow at a target I will start shooting 3D again or just hunt.
> 
> Stop with all the crap about taking forever to shoot a round....its RARE. I have been shooting field for over 13 years and have been on a range ONCE for more then 6 hours.
> 
> ...


Brown Hornet you sure do have an unusual vocabulary. We took you in from the 3D ranks and then you talk to the field shooters that way Shame on you Brown Hornet. But since you have been 

shooting Field Archery for 13 years and some of us old Field shooters have been shooting for 40 to 50 years I can see where you know a lot more about shooting Field Archery than we do.

I wish you had come alone 40 years ago It is hard to tell how much you could have taught us about shooting Field Archery, A expert like you only comes alone once in a while, you should have been a master

coach with all these archery lessons that you give to all of us field shooters . I feel like I have just got a Master degree From the university of Notra Dame.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

distributor said:


> Brown Hornet you sure do have an unusual vocabulary. We took you in from the 3D ranks and then you talk to the field shooters that way Shame on you Brown Hornet. But since you have been
> 
> shooting Field Archery for 13 years and some of us old Field shooters have been shooting for 40 to 50 years I can see where you know a lot more about shooting Field Archery than we do.
> 
> ...


Easy there - BH isn't attacking anyone. He's got a valid point. With a shotgun start, to me it just comes down to basic sportsmanship. Ask to shoot through or volunteer to step back if your group is running slow.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

distributor said:


> Brown Hornet you sure do have an unusual vocabulary. We took you in from the 3D ranks and then you talk to the field shooters that way Shame on you Brown Hornet. But since you have been
> 
> shooting Field Archery for 13 years and some of us old Field shooters have been shooting for 40 to 50 years I can see where you know a lot more about shooting Field Archery than we do.
> 
> ...


Took me in? Did you trip on a walkup and bump your head? I have been shooting since I was a kid. Back then to me all there was...was hunting. I stopped shooting because I was playing baseball. After an injury forced me to stop playing I started shooting again. 

I was hunting only then someone introduced me to indoors....that spring they introduced me to 3D...three weeks later I shot my 1st official field round. I had shot them before since my range had one. Actually I had shot field NUMEROUS times before I even knew there was a 3D target. 

I shot BOTH for a few years....but since most of my buddies shot 3D that's what I shot most.... Now all I shoot is field. 

I'm not gonna get into the rest of your rant...as its not worth it...seeing how you got your old panties in a wad over nothing. 

But I will say that if it wasn't for me....you wouldn't have this field forum to stomp around and rant about how long you have been doing it. Sorry I haven't been shooting for 40 years....but my parents didn't give me a bow the day I was born....

I guess Jesse and Dave can't state how they feel either...since they haven't been shooting for 40 years either....and I'm older then them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Still laughing at the response that my post got....

I guess you have to be a senior citizen to have an opinion....or to respond...

And you would think in 40, 50 or 60 years of Notre Dame being on TV every week and in the paper. We could figure out that there is no A at the end. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

Last year at nationals, I am pretty sure we were off the course by 2:30 every day, 4 of the days. Can't remember the animal round time but I'm sure it was earlier than that. And if I recall, shotgun start was at 9, but possibly 8:30. Don't recall for certain. So lets say 8:30, and done at 3. Thats 6.5 hours of shooting. In that time, I shot 4 practice arrows and 112 scoring arrows. Thats 116 shots in 6.5 hours, which includes 3 other people in my group, shooting 2 at a time, spotting arrows, scoring, pulling, walking and scorecards turned in. 

There was a 3d tournament this weekend. They shot 40 arrows, and the good ones shot 50 I believe. Would be willing to bet they spent more than 6.5 hours on the range, in fact that was shot over 2 days. So in 2 days, they shot about a third of what is shot in 6.5 hours(assuming long times) for field.

Why is it that field all of a sudden is the one that takes too long?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Archery Power said:


> What if we had a ASA Field and Hunter Rounds, This would solve the problem that we now have with the time it takes to
> shoot a NFAA Field Round, 1 Arrow per target, Drop the 45 Yard walk and the 80 yard walk and pick up a 70 yard target
> and a 75 yard target, all marked distance , Bird shot target would be 10 yards, The hunter round would all be shot from
> the field stakes, 1 arrow = 20 points 1 14 target round = 280 1 28 target round = 560 No X would be scored as 6 points
> ...


Saw this Post the other day and went on by... One, the ASA wouldn't take up such a venture. One failure, the ASA DAIR Idoor, was probably enough for a couple years more and more pages of rules for the event than I like. I don't see where one arrow per target lane would work. Another issues would be right back to target bunkers - those bales cost money. Most Field clubs in our area, even farther out than my area, just plain can't make a go of Field. Okay, 20 shooters just don't get it. Field14 knows what happened to one of our clubs when money was taken from 3Ds and used to update the Field course. The club has never really recovered and it's been some years now. Recovered as in 3Ds having good attendance - bum 3D targets turn off people.
Like noted, there are other Field type events with lesser arrows/time envolved. There has been a discussion of the Field/3D Combo, 7 field targets (4 arrows each) and 7 3D targets (2 arrows each) for 42 arrows. Also discussed was doing away with 28 and going with 14 lanes. One, no one complained of the shooting fee, $10 for 14 lanes. So why shoot 28 for $10? Two, the time frame was more like that of shooting 3D.

Of course, our IAA never allowed target expense for 3D like they do for paper target events. Said was there was no way to calculate expense and you 3D clubs still have the target. BS! I know exactly how much it cost per arrow shot. When Sec/Trea I knew how many people shot and knew how much replacements centers cost. Pretty damned easy to divide dollars by number of shooters. Yes, it takes a few purchases and number of shooters to get the overall cost per arrow, but it can be done. 

I have shot field a few times, always state sanctioned events. It does take a bit to get through 28 lanes and do it two days in a row. BUT! I was always grouped with good people and it well made the 4 hours or so seem short.

I don't know where the time frame of shooting a 3D was anywhere near that of shooting Field on the club level. We knock off 40 targets in a little over 2 hours, more if a 4 or more in a group. I usually start around 9:00 am and be sitting at Concession stand waiting for our monthly meeting to start at 12:00 sharp.
National level 3D sucks for time - 4 hours to shoot 20 targets.
The last time I blazed through a 30 target 3D we blazed. The two of us were at target 19 in little over a hour when the club president stopped to talk with us. "You guys skip some targets?" Hell, no, shot every one. We just didn't jack around - No umbrellas, we didn't glass as we were shooting for 10 rings only. I shot one of my better scores that day and good for 1st place.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

distributor said:


> PAA only had Freestyle compound and Freestyle recurve no bowhunter style


Wrong!!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Wrong!!!


No, Distributor is correct! The PAA of the 1960's and into the 1970's did NOT have a BH shooting style. I'm also nearly positive they didn't have a BB style either; if they did, there weren't many of them and/or enough to keep it viable in the early 1970's when I became familiar with the PAA. 

In fact, the PAA also did NOT allow Release Aids until a couple of years after the NFAA voted release aids legal...so the PAA backed off and legalized release aids but most begrudginly or maybe more accurately, under protest. Many of the old heads HATED release aids and that arguing and trials, tribulations, and conflicts ultimately lead to the demise of the old PAA. I knew several PAA members personally, and not one of them shot BH, and none of them shot barebow either. I know that when I got to Columbus, OH in 1974, a very well known and several times PAA Overall Male Champion walked off the shooting line rather than to shoot alongside of me with my compound and release aid! He wouldn't even stand on the line alongside of anyone shooting a compound/release!
I will say, however that I knew several PAA members that "practiced" with release aids, but they did NOT shoot any "official" PAA tournaments with a release aid, since they were not legal for PAA competition..until around 1973 or so. 

In mid- 1973, I shot a Mixed Team indoor event(Blue face and there wasn't an X-ring or a 5-spot face back then) and my partner was Denise Libby. She was a top PAA professional, and I had been recommended to become a member of the PAA by several PAA members that lived near Sacramento at that time. So, Denise Libby asked me to be her partner for that tournament. I believe she and I got 2nd place in that event, only because I shot a 300 the first day and a 298 the second day...both with my Golden Eagle Recurved bow with my fingers on the string! Had I shot a 299 we would have tied with the winning team (I think that it was Vic Leach and a Lady who's name I don't remember).

field14


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

field14 said:


> Yes, you are absolutely correct! That did NOT stop other clubs from using their own system that normally went along with what the NFAA had set up.
> 
> In addition, the PAA had a very structured system for getting into the PAA (couldn't just pay your money and waltz into the PAA), a very structured DRESS CODE, an enforced Code of Ethics. You also had to maintain a certain level of scores, indoors and outdoors, AND...had to attend a minimum number of sanctioned PAA events in order to maintain your membership as a member of the PAA. The recommendations from other PAA members weren't just handed out like nickels and dimes, either. There was no such thing as BH in the REAL PAA.


The PAA evolved into freestyle and FSL using compounds. I never said there was a BH division, what I did say was that a BH style shooter shot those scores competiting against the FSL archers in St. Louis in the late 80s. You need to bone up on your archery facts before you go off making foot in mouth statements.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

itbeso said:


> The PAA evolved into freestyle and FSL using compounds. I never said there was a BH division, what I did say was that a BH style shooter shot those scores competiting against the FSL archers in St. Louis in the late 80s. You need to bone up on your archery facts before you go off making foot in mouth statements.


Itbeso, Ok I understand what you are saying The bowhunter that you refer to did in fact come in and shoot Free Style limited He was a bowhunter from texas Name Charley Langston

If I remember this right this was the person, But Steve Robertson. Vic Burger just to name a few was also shooting thoes type of scores, But it was a long time before PAA ever

excepted Compound bows, But they had to change with the times but never a bowhunter division that I recall, The Paa problem as they we too late of making their change.

I still have my old paa merbership cards If you would like I could look it up when they called it quit.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

itbeso said:


> The PAA evolved into freestyle and FSL using compounds. I never said there was a BH division, what I did say was that a BH style shooter shot those scores competiting against the FSL archers in St. Louis in the late 80s. You need to bone up on your archery facts before you go off making foot in mouth statements.


ITBESO, I was a PAA member since 1968, until the PAA was no longer, This was around 20 Plus years how many years were you a member. It could be possible that I know you. Since you were a member.

I still have a lot of the old PAA rule books I can look this up about the bowhunter if you would like, I would try to shoot at least 3 PAA events per year.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

distributor said:


> Itbeso, Ok I understand what you are saying The bowhunter that you refer to did in fact come in and shoot Free Style limited He was a bowhunter from texas Name Charley Langston
> 
> If I remember this right this was the person, But Steve Robertson. Vic Burger just to name a few was also shooting thoes type of scores, But it was a long time before PAA ever
> 
> ...


Distributor, Charlie was a bowhunter freestyle limited shooter( five fixed pins) but when he shot PAA tourneys, he always used a moveable sight. The archer who shot those scores was shooting Bowhunter class equipment, compound, 12 inch stab, one anchor, no stringwalking, no sight. Again, I never said there was a bowhunter division, that particular archer chose to shoot against the best finger sight shooters in the country using a non-sight method of shooting. The names you mention were some of the founding fathers, in the eighties the names were more like Frank Gandy, Butch Johnson, Eric hall, Tim Strickland, Charlie, Jerry Podratz, Frank Pearson, Ed rohde, Rick White, etc. As far as calling it quits, if my memory is correct, it would be late eighties, early nineties.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

field14 said:


> THe PAA was long since defunct by the later 1980's...in fact the PAA went out of existence sometime around 1973-1975 or so!
> He may have been shooting in BH at an "NFAA type shoot" that was using the OLD PAA targets/round...but not a "PAA Nationals." That kind of score with BH, no sights, no stringwalking??? I dunno so much whether I can buy that or not; seems very higly exaggerated to me.


 Tom, your archery knowledge and history facts are really lacking. Exaggerated, yeah it's also an exaggeration that that same bowhunter shot a 526 hunter round at the Nfaa national, or a 300 indoor round with 47 xs, Or an 869 on the 900 round, or a 295 vegas round in his state indoor tourney. The Paa was alive and kicking well into the eighties, if you don't know the facts, don't post.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Distributor, Charlie was a bowhunter freestyle limited shooter( five fixed pins) but when he shot PAA tourneys, he always used a moveable sight. The archer who shot those scores was shooting Bowhunter class equipment, compound, 12 inch stab, one anchor, no stringwalking, no sight. Again, I never said there was a bowhunter division, that particular archer chose to shoot against the best finger sight shooters in the country using a non-sight method of shooting. The names you mention were some of the founding fathers, in the eighties the names were more like Frank Gandy, Butch Johnson, Eric hall, Tim Strickland, Charlie, Jerry Podratz, Frank Pearson, Ed rohde, Rick White, etc. As far as calling it quits, if my memory is correct, it would be late eighties, early nineties.


I knew/know several of the above shooters; shot with a few of them.
However, I do not think the PAA as a _separate entity_ was in existence at all in the later 1980's...let alone the 1990's. I do know that as late as 1976, Luther Powell, Steve Robinson, Victor Berger, Al Barringer (all from Ohio) were top notch PAA shooters. From about 1974 thru 1977, Luther Powell (long deceased) was cleaning house in the PAA for indoors. His arrow flight was terrible, but he kept shooting 300's anyways, not worried about arrow flight as much as impact point and getting the 300's. Not one of those I named above shot with release aids, and I also don't recall any of them shooting PAA events with releases either...fingers had to be on the string.
Of course, on the Ladie's side in the late '60's there were Ann Butz and Denise Libby at the top and going back and forth on wins, along with a gal from Wyoming by the name of Margaret Parker that was prominent in the later 1960's and very early 1970's. Vic Leach, Jim Yocum, Roger Erlandson from the Sacramento, CA area (I shot with them a lot) in the 1972-mid 1974 era; again competing PAA, but only fingers on the string during PAA competitions. I also shot a lot in the later 1970's with Ed "Paps" Rhode and I recall him finally succumbing to shooting fingers with a compound in the mid 1980's...Seems that the first time I saw him shoot with fingers/compound was a "Great River Days" shoot in Muscatine, Iowa, sometime around 1984-85. And YES! Ed Rhode kicked some butt on many of the compound/release shooters...and was still doing that in the later 1990's, too.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Tom, your archery knowledge and history facts are really lacking. Exaggerated, yeah it's also an exaggeration that that same bowhunter shot a 526 hunter round at the Nfaa national, or a 300 indoor round with 47 xs, Or an 869 on the 900 round, or a 295 vegas round in his state indoor tourney. The Paa was alive and kicking well into the eighties, _if you don't know the facts, don't post._


As you keep posting names and other such "reminders" I recall more and more...HOWEVER...you gotta also remember, you lead the impression that the person was Shooting BH equipment...and then recanted that when he shot PAA events...he used a moveable sight - - so you were misleading.
I knew a BAREBOW shooter that won the Iowa State Indoor in TWO divisions...Barebow and then Freestyle Limited...shooting 599 in BAREBOW, and 600 in Freestyle Limited. I phoned him to congratulate him and also asked him when he "converted" to sights. He then told me he didn't convert, but decided to step UP and shoot the Freestyle Limited but shot it BAREBOW and still won...with a higher score than what he shot in his normal BAREBOW.

If you don't live in a specific area...you don't know the intricacies of said area. So, you, just like me don't necessarily have all your facts straight either.
I don't recall the PAA shooting for separate money at Vegas once the release aids/compounds took over; or at least they sure didn't get any of the "glory" as being THE Vegas or Desert Inn Classic WINNER!
I do remember a close friend that I shot with many times in Wyoming....winning Vegas in 1973 with his Spartan II recurve bow and home-made rope spike release aid. His name? Gene Parnell. So...all the "Glory" for Vegas obviously went to the RELEASE AIDS side of the game from 1973 onwards.
I also seem to remember Denise talking about Vic Berger at the Desert Inn Classic when the PAA Pros were shooting and BEFORE release aids were allowed - - she said Victor shot what everyone thought was his last arrow and when it hit the middle, everyone was cheering and applauding. Victor, so I was told, turned around and said, 'No, I have Vun More Arrow". She said in spite of all that, Victor drew back that arrow, anchored, steadied, and released and nailed that arrow right in the group for the big Win! Crap, forgot about Gentleman Jim Pickering, may he rest in peace, and God Bless His Soul. Knew him, too.

I do remember that there were one or two years that for the PROS (Championship) at Vegas, they had to shoot both fingers and release aid and the one with the highest score total won. That was..>Frank Pearson that "cleaned house" on all the other "Pros". Again, I don't recall if that lasted only one year or two, however.

It could be that the "notoriety" and promotion/publishing of the results for the PAA were getting over-shadowed by the NFAA Pros and the Desert Inn Classic, then to become "The Vegas Shoot"....and that overshadowing suppressed the reporting of those results and nobody paid attention, focusing instead upon the "new" pros of the NFAA?

I believe I also told you about the bitterness that a lot of the PAA Pros had towards release shooters and especially release/compound shooters...They would step off the shooting line, in fact...this was in 1974-75. I know this to be fact...cuz I was the "release/compound" shooter that had the (old) PAA Pros step off the shooting line when I went up and got on the line with my home-built compound and home made rope spike release aid! That didn't last long, but it was something a person wouldn't forget! I understand their bitterness now, but at the time I didn't.

So, lastly, who died and made you "boss" or the "AT forum police"? You have no right to tell me not to post.
Please do not tell me I don't know facts...you don't have them all either...so maybe I should tell you "if you don't know the facts, don't post." How 'bout THIS finger shooter (me) shooting a 548 hunter score on the OLD NFAA target with a Golden Eagle recurved bow and fingers on the string...or THIS person also posting several 560 animal rounds with fingers and recurve? Of course, my best BB score was a meager 296 on the NFAA blue face (before the X-ring was ever there and we shot single spot target faces that were that ugly turquoise color...Surely you remember those UGLY target faces, don't you?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

field14 said:


> As you keep posting names and other such "reminders" I recall more and more...HOWEVER...you gotta also remember, you lead the impression that the person was Shooting BH equipment...and then recanted that when he shot PAA events...he used a moveable sight - - so you were misleading.
> I knew a BAREBOW shooter that won the Iowa State Indoor in TWO divisions...Barebow and then Freestyle Limited...shooting 599 in BAREBOW, and 600 in Freestyle Limited. I phoned him to congratulate him and also asked him when he "converted" to sights. He then told me he didn't convert, but decided to step UP and shoot the Freestyle Limited but shot it BAREBOW and still won...with a higher score than what he shot in his normal BAREBOW.
> 
> If you don't live in a specific area...you don't know the intricacies of said area. So, you, just like me don't necessarily have all your facts straight either.
> ...


Tom, As much as you post on here I was under the impression you were knowledgeable about the history and inner workings of archery. My mistake and I apologize. Just to clarify one more time, I never recanted anything I posted. Distributor named an archer from Texas, thinking he was the person I was talking about. I corrected his misinformation and said that the person I was speaking of did, in fact, shoot those scores with BOWHUNTER CLASS equipment, not bhfsl, not bhfs, but BOWHUNTER CLASS. Please, post all you want, I now understand and will no longer correct your "recollections".:shhh:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

So, you are calling me a liar, without saying so...and you are saying that nothing I posted above is correct? I was there, I shot with those people, etc...You weren't there, but I'm the one that isn't knowledgable? Gimme a break...What you say is insulting and demeaning, and certainly not "archers helping archers."

Do you have any idea of how many persons have shot super high scores with whatever equipment (in their category or bumping themselves up) and nobody ever "hears" about it except those that are there, or in close proximity, etc.? This stuff is seldom published...but, oh, I forgot...you are the only one that knows any "true" information and the fieldman knows nothing?

May I ask how many State associations you have belonged to over the years? I'm not saying VISITED, I'm saying paying the dues and being a member of said State Associations? How many different Sections have you competed in over the years, not as a guest, but as a "legal" member of said Section(s).

It is fine to correct my recollections...but in order to understand your post about Charlie and the moveable sight, one has to read it twice to realize that the two separate sentences talk about two different people. Why are you not NAMING this person that shot those great scores without sites, and all that? What is the frickin' mystery? The other thing - - how would anyone verify your information when apparently it sure as heck wasn't wide spread about this person, whoever it is, was posting such great scores out of category and kicking tail like this? I'd have really wanted to know about this and would revel in his prowess.

So..._We are BOTH wrong with regard to the "Professional Archery Association" and its existence time frame._...Are you aware that in 2006 ( you probably are, since you are on top of everything perfectly without error), there was yet another attempt at organizing "The Professional Archers Association"? They were setting up a "tour" and all that...but apparently that never materialized?Did YOU ever hear boo about it? Oh, you'll say it isn't the "same", and you'd be correct...but the NAME is the same....Notice there isn't any "emblem" or "patch" that goes with this. The OLD PAA had a very distinctive Patch and also if I recall, the OLD PAA members also wore a very nice, distinctive jacket, too, didn't they? Oh wait....I can't possibly be correct about this either....

http://paa3da.tripod.com/ 

I now wonder what came of it? Obviously the web-site is still there, but.....I see that the "headquarters" was/is??? in the Great Lakes area. Wisconsin to be specific.

If you read the "who we are" (ignore the pop ups if you get them)...the idea wasn't bad, but apparently the association didn't float...of if it did, then why wasn't it brought to people's attention or advertised in the archery resources, etc?

Just don't insult me by telling me I don't know anything...I didn't insult you, but I will if......


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Imagine that.. a thread about one thing turns into someone ProActively arguing with someone about something completely different all the while stating how long he has been a paying member. Never would have thought that.. that has never happened before.


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

Can you imagine that gcab? Sounds strangely familiar to the "Taking to long to shoot section" doesn't it. I wonder what the common denominator is? Hilarious


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What happened with the ASA thing?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> Imagine that.. a thread about one thing turns into someone ProActively arguing with someone about something completely different all the while stating how long he has been a paying member. Never would have thought that.. that has never happened before.


And nobody knows the name of the person that starteda bashing me, either. At least people know my name.
Has this BOWHUNTER that shoots such great scores been named so we all know who he is? No.

You all wonder why the top echelon shooters and pros quit posting on here? I'd tell you the truth, but as the line in the movie, "A Few Good Men" goes, "You can't HANDLE the truth".

You all don't have any appreciation for the fact that the direction being proposed with things is the same as it was in 1976, and some of us that were around back then can see it as plain as the nose on your faces. So, when it happens that history repeats itself..."I told you so..."

Sharing information on this forum seems to have become a waste of time, since people split hairs (me included sometimes in self-defense), call you a liar, demean you, insult you...and expect you to take it....but if you are a big name PRO (few bother to post anymore), then everything said is taken as utter gospel.
To repeat what another poster on another thread said last week...Some of you guys make me sick. At least MY profile has my name on it...but 
*Itbeso* doesn't have his name even posted...so who is this "masked man"?? What is he afraid of? At least this person has contributed something, what? I dunno. over 1200 posts...
Who IS "*gapmaster*", huh? No name on his profile? 217 posts...he REALLY helps people, huh?
Same with *GCAB*...NO NAME? Who is this mystery person? 172 posts, a significant and helpful contributor?
Privacy? my foot...
But that is ok...they are "undercover" and "incognito" or LURKERS...and the ones raising the rucus...and likely "playing me like a fiddle"....What was today's bait, "sick pie?" Just drop on in and slam somebody...that is so much like "archers helping archers".
field14 (tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> What happened with the ASA thing?


Three persons have decided to slam the fieldman and force him into a defensive posture...cuz the fieldman will not take crap from anyone. Hate me if you will...but don't scathe me or insult me.

Now...I agree with you Sonny, why would the ASA even think about mixing ASA successes with field targets on the same range or even as part of their successful tournament series they've had over the years as a PROFIT organization?
They'd be insane to disrupt a very successful enterprise!

It is very sad, however that the Pro Payouts are not what they should be and that the number of PROS is apparently declining? It is because the same few win or finish on the podium all the time? Or is it the economics of the time?
You can see from the flow of the thread...you ain't gonna get any agreement when it comes to 3-d, field, or especially, apparently, BOWHUNTERS on much of anything "archery". Each wants to protect their turf right down to the real nitty gritty. I'm about as guilty as the others, too...but...I've seen this same game repeat itself over and over...and try as I might...there is always somebody jumping down my throat telling me I don't know squat.
Same stuff to "Try" is brought up over and over and over again...same things that have been tried over, and over, and over again...and the "newbies" still think it is "something new" and untried. How exasperating.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

How did this post about ASA Field Archery Round that deals with time,targets,number of arrows shot and types of targets , turn into a bashing of ideals,peoples toughts of the past , rock monkey ,field 14 and a couple of others did bring good ideals and suggestions.but oh know a couple of you guys just start bashing people and thinking you know everything, its no wonder some of the pro`s plus some other good people who had some great ideals just quit saying anything on archery talk,its just because some of you keyboard know -it- all`s or what i call guys like you "coward`s of the keyboards" ! please report me to timberlou otherwise just keep on bashing people ,SHAME ON YOU GUYS ! rock monkey and field 14 thanks for your ideals and the rest of the people who also wrote some positive messages.steven


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

Well, I'm guessing this is why Field Archery is dying.

As for the proposed idea, I'm not real fond of it. I can understand the reasoning behind the idea, basically trying to get the 3D shooter by making it more like 3D.

IMO, that is a mistake. I think it is also a mistake to try and cater to the bow hunter, and by that I mean guys who just go out and kill real animals, not the class.

For me, after I discovered field archery and shot it with all the rules in place, I was hooked. A big part of the appeal to *me* was all the arrows shot. I love to shoot my bow, period. However, I can see where that can be a turnoff for some shooters, especially non spot shooters that only shoot 3D. What I truly don't understand is, if you are a target shooter, how you cannot love shooting a Field Round. I just don't get it.

However, something like an international round or lake of the woods round I think is better situated for the introduction for 3D guys, who are target archers whether they know it or not.

Now, the next mistake I think the OP has is hooking an idea to ASA, which in a lot of ways we are talking national/regional type shoots. As Field14 has said in a lot of other threads, the NFAA isn't doing jack squat to promote the individual achievement awards. Just look at your kids XBOX, they love those game achievements! Hell, there are a lot of adults that love them!

I think the real solution to the waning participation in the NFAA is for the top to actually get interested in the bottom. Have someone at the top push the states to put on and encourage some standardized round in their states. Be it 14 Field (again, looking for a transition into Field that I believe most target archers will love), International, Lake of the Woods, or some other Hybrid type round. I suggest no less than 3 arrows per target. However it can't just be one state shoot a year that 3/4 of the state isn't going to bother driving to the shoot location. It won't be easy, and there will be some lean looking shoots in some states to start, but it needs to be in various areas to get the participation. Maybe some (all) areas need to have volunteers available to walk people through the course, keeping them in the game, helping them score, warning about cuts, etc. If there is a bunny involved, most archers wouldn't know that to shoot at 25 feet a lot of them need to be closer to 30-35 yards aiming.

To put it simply, the foundation is bad for the NFAA, and needs to be repaired. All of these ideas need to be explored IMO. I'd love to see field archery get bigger. As I started into archery a few years ago and went to a few 3D shoots, you see the remnants of old Field courses lying in disrepair all over the course, there has got to be some interest across the country, it just needs to look favorable again.

I do also think the classes need to be adjusted/condensed. Easy for me to say though as I'm in MFS with my hunting setup.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

ThunderEagle said:


> Well, I'm guessing this is why Field Archery is dying.
> 
> As for the proposed idea, I'm not real fond of it. I can understand the reasoning behind the idea, basically trying to get the 3D shooter by making it more like 3D.
> 
> ...



1. Yep, hanging onto and arguing about stuff from 40 - 50 years ago seems quite........... well, purposeless and draining.

2. I somewhat disagree. IF the ASA completely took over the NFAA tomorrow by sunset the field and indoor spot game would be MUCH better!!!

3. See #2 above. Field archery never stood a chance with the way the NFAA has run it's business. The NFAA is done. It only exists in name and is now propped up by a major archery manufacturer.

4. Yep. I really believe if a certain company had not stepped in the NFAA would be gone and Yankton, SD and it's local archery shop would have a really nice archery venue all to itself. How much longer will just a few hundred archers travel across the country for an archery tournament? Look at the number of Senior and older shooters that participated and compare that number in the younger classes. Field archery as all these old folks know it is DONE! 

IF an organization or business like the ASA goes after the indoor spot game then the NFAA will absolutely have nothing of any value......... Let us not forget the Vegas shoot is NOT an NFAA event!


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

Kstigall said:


> 2. I somewhat disagree. IF the ASA completely took over the NFAA tomorrow by sunset the field and indoor spot game would be MUCH better!!!
> 
> 3. See #2 above. Field archery never stood a chance with the way the NFAA has run it's business. The NFAA is done. It only exists in name and is now propped up by a major archery manufacturer.


Well, my point wasn't the ASA running it, it was more that it needs better local, grassroots support. Much like ASA and IBO have with a myriad of local clubs that don't even necessarily use their rules, but 3D is shot. However, I guess if ASA suddenly started running tournaments with a game the same or similar to Field as part of it, clubs probably couldn't build courses fast enough.

I guess you can replace NFAA in my post with "a national organization that actually cares about the Outdoor Spot Game". I honestly don't know enough to say if that NFAA is that or not, but evidence doesn't look good. They may care, I just think maybe the wrong things have been concentrated on.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> 1. Yep,_ hanging onto and arguing about stuff from 40 - 50 years ago seems quite........... well, purposeles_s and draining.
> 
> 2. I somewhat disagree. IF the ASA completely took over the NFAA tomorrow by sunset the field and indoor spot game would be MUCH better!!!
> 
> ...


Ken, you have some good points...but the intent of bringing up stuff from 50 years ago is the "Hey, this has been tried before and FAILED miserably" perspective. This in an effort to warn the newbies that most all of the suggestions have been tried over and over again, and that really, the newbies haven't offered anything new or shall we say earth shattering.
The shorter rounds are already in existence, no need to reinvent the wheel on that! USE the new rounds and try them, but again, that has been done over and over again too.

SO it really comes down to the naysayers and while I respect your opinion, your really severe and constant bashing of the NFAA and negativity isn't doing much to add any SOLUTION>....you are rather contributing to the problem.
There is already more than enough bad-mouthing of the NFAA by people that know NOTHING about it, by people that have never even shot a field round, but form their opinions based upon hearsay.

What is lacking in the NFAA has nothing to do with the number of arrows shot, the number of targets, the distances, the design of the targets...the problem lies with the NEGATIVITY of the local clubs, the negativity of people that know nothing about the things the NFAA does offer that are NOT offered by the ASA or the IBO, the negativity of the competitive organizations against the NFAA at every opportunity.

In addition, the NFAA itself, isn't holding up the promotion aspects of FIELD archery like should be happening. This is the National FIELD Archery Association, but it has long lost its enthusiasm for FIELD archery and spends most of its efforts with the promotion of the WAF/NFAA Vegas shoot, the Yankton Classic, and the NFAA Indoor Nationals. They are leaving the real promotion of FIELD archery up to the host clubs for the Sectionals and Nationals.
There is just a total lack of enthusiasm by the Association, the Councilmen, the Directors, and this filters right down to the individual members that don't promote the positive things within the NFAA and what it has to offer that the other organizations (other than the NAA) do NOT offer their members.

You are astute in what you say...the near total negativity you present with reference to the NFAA is really not helping. What the heck did they ever do to you to cause this? What is your SOLUTION to offer to the questions?


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

field14 said:


> Ken, you have some good points...but the intent of bringing up stuff from 50 years ago is the "Hey, this has been tried before and FAILED miserably" perspective. This in an effort to warn the newbies that most all of the suggestions have been tried over and over again, and that really, the newbies haven't offered anything new or shall we say earth shattering.
> The shorter rounds are already in existence, no need to reinvent the wheel on that! USE the new rounds and try them, but again, that has been done over and over again too.
> 
> SO it really comes down to the naysayers and while I respect your opinion, your really severe and constant bashing of the NFAA and negativity isn't doing much to add any SOLUTION>....you are rather contributing to the problem.
> ...


Ironic, all the uses of negative or negativity here. This is what it seems like so many have said regarding your posts for what seems like forever now. But now it's his negativity that isn't helping? Really? Does it require being a paid member for a certain period of time to have ones negativity be the solution instead of the problem? Of have the negative from as you stated "heresay" be acceptable? Or the complaining and badmouthing of NFAA is acceptable after a certain point? To read through the arguements between you and Chuck concerning things that have to do with the pro class is pretty funny, but then to read this where its everyone else's negativity that is adding to the problem.. but you won't see how you add to that? Interesting. Don't think I get that, but interesting none the less


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## SHOCKER77 (Mar 22, 2012)

This would not work. You would have perfect rounds shot by more then half the field and still spend all of the eight hours In a shoot off


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> Ironic, all the uses of negative or negativity here. This is what it seems like so many have said regarding your posts for what seems like forever now. But now it's his negativity that isn't helping? Really? Does it require being a paid member for a certain period of time to have ones negativity be the solution instead of the problem? Of have the negative from as you stated "heresay" be acceptable? Or the complaining and badmouthing of NFAA is acceptable after a certain point? To read through the arguements between you and Chuck concerning things that have to do with the pro class is pretty funny, but then to read this where its everyone else's negativity that is adding to the problem.. but you won't see how you add to that? Interesting. Don't think I get that, but interesting none the less


Get off it gcab (mystery person? Why no name? You got something to hide?). How does it feel to see somebody else get blasted for really bad bashing of an organization! Read what Ken has to say...talk about negative...total negative, and offering zero information, and definitely nothing with regard to any solutions, or things to "avoid" that have already been historically tried and failed.

Until you provide a NAME, nobody knows who the heck you are, or much else..other than a lurker....

Enough of this crap...offer SOLUTIONS and some NEW ideas instead of the same old stuff that has already been tried and reaped little to no benefit to the organization or the members. The "nameless" don't have much credibility; heck for all we know the three amigos (nameless ones) posting are the SAME person with three different user names. The AT members sure can't go in and check the IP addresses of the computers, but then if those are from different computers, it wouldn't gain anyways. Besides that it isn't worth the effort, oh great nameless ones.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tom, you are quite right, both of the ASA doesn't need Field and sticking to your guns. No one sees the same thing each of us see. "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" thing. You see and know one thing and I see and know something else and someone else sees something entirely different, names, games, places, happenings.

Field has been dying a long time. Often, the those who remember speak of the 300 and more attending Field and Outdoor events, whole families, trailers and tents pitch every where. Those days are gone...with rare exceptions here and there.

The "together family" is rare even. Kids have their own thing today, with mom or dad or both in tow.

Field archery, even Outdoor 900s, will have to change and change can turn things around, maybe slow, but.... We may not like the change, but Field and Outdoor might possibly grow to some degree. Field and Outdoor probalby would never overtake 3D, but a healthy following is possible....more than the 15 or so archers that were shooting monthly at one local Field/Outdoor/3D club. You just can't honestly justify a Field range with just 15 or so archers shooting.

Field14 possibly knows of the another club that had a 14 Field range. As soon this one individual relocated Field died out, the Field range detoriated to junk. 3D is the main stay of the club now. This same individual is being listened to at another club. Hopefully, something will come of it. Heads up, Tom. The club is right next door.

By and large NFAA States are held to what the NFAA deems official tournaments. In other words, Field can be something other than just Field. There's a list that complies in the NFAA Constitution and By-Laws - was Art. IV, Tournaments. BUT then, to change at the state level such change has to be in Agenda form, dicussed, brought forward for vote, or whatever. Handcuffed is what I call it and field14 knows what I'm talking about. Heck, you can't do anything without approval of NFAA hardliners.

The ASA is one to look at though. Ideas, trial periods, are given to. This is mainly due to Mike and company taking a look and giving the go ahead through officials steps, but known to; "We're going to try it." Right now, Texas has introduced a new class. If the class proves successful it may very well be adopted across the States and National level. More, last year it was upping the speed limit of classes of 45 yards and more. This year coming year will see a all known yardage for Open C instead of the all unknown of years past. ASA individual States have altered rules of the governing rules, that is with permission granted from Headquarters. And not that I wholly agree with some. Still, States have change rules for the betterment or want of their State, within reasonable cause. 
What's nice about this, it didn't take hagling, Agendas, squalling and *****ing and years to get it done.

Those clubs that have Field ranges, you want to change or try something, do it. If some NFAA diehard mouths off tell them where the door is. Had this happen to me. Yes, I did. "You're not to have a Women's stake!" My reply; "Our club, our rules. The NFAA doesn't run our club."


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Tom, you are quite right, both of the ASA doesn't need Field and sticking to your guns. No one sees the same thing each of us see. "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" thing. You see and know one thing and I see and know something else and someone else sees something entirely different, names, games, places, happenings.
> 
> Field has been dying a long time. Often, the those who remember speak of the 300 and more attending Field and Outdoor events, whole families, trailers and tents pitch every where. Those days are gone...with rare exceptions here and there.
> 
> ...


Sonny I know exactly of whom you speak, and that person and his wife are POSITIVE about the NFAA and POSITIVE about the way they promote the field range at the club of which you speak. In fact, so positive, that the past 3 shoots there have seen a DOUBLING of the number of shooters in attendance for FIELD...and more are getting the word out and interested in trying FIELD archery!
Those two's enthusiasm is rubbing off, and along with what me and several others are saying at the indoor range to get people's knowledge base up about the OTHER offerings of the NFAA besides just "tournaments", things are really looking up, too!

Unless it is a sanctioned NFAA event, the clubs are free to do anything they want to "modify" the rounds to help encourage new growth. The problem is that the clubs are led to believe by naysayers that the ONLY WAY to shoot a field round is to completely follow NFAA rules all the time? Not so. That includes having to be a member of the NFAA to shoot a field round. Believe it or not, there are people out there that believe this and think they can't shoot a field round without being a State and NFAA member. (Membership requirement only applies to registered/sanctioned NFAA events).
Way too much misinformation out there...oh, wait...the fieldman doesn't have the knowledge base, my information is inaccurate...maybe the 3 nameless amigos can chime in and straighten it out...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

field14 said:


> Ken, you have some good points...but the intent of bringing up stuff from 50 years ago is the "Hey, this has been tried before and FAILED miserably" perspective. This in an effort to warn the newbies that most all of the suggestions have been tried over and over again, and that really, the newbies haven't offered anything new or shall we say earth shattering.
> The shorter rounds are already in existence, no need to reinvent the wheel on that! USE the new rounds and try them, but again, that has been done over and over again too.
> 
> SO it really comes down to the naysayers and while I respect your opinion, your really severe and constant bashing of the NFAA and negativity isn't doing much to add any SOLUTION>....you are rather contributing to the problem.
> ...


Very astute observations and well said. These points are the points you should have been making in previous posts. Agree wholeheartedly on the bashers who , decade after decade, doom the NFAA to failure while organizations like the ASA are where it's at. Of course, back in the 90s, ASA pros were shooting for $50,000 first places at the finals, and now? Maybe $3,000 if they are lucky to get enough pros competiting. I would say that is real progress, right Mr. Stigall. The NFAA is still the best game in town and has survived a lot of impostors along the way.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Very astute observations and well said. These points are the points you should have been making in previous posts. Agree wholeheartedly on the bashers who , decade after decade, doom the NFAA to failure while organizations like the ASA are where it's at. Of course, back in the 90s, ASA pros were shooting for $50,000 first places at the finals, and now? Maybe $3,000 if they are lucky to get enough pros competiting. I would say that is real progress, right Mr. Stigall. The NFAA is still the best game in town and has survived a lot of impostors along the way.


One must remember who owned the ASA and he sold it because was not making the money he thought it should. I believe Miller Beer was the big name sponsor, but correct me if I'm wrong. With the new owner a beer sponsor was not desired, I guess, or he didn't have the "strings" to pull. Regardless, the ASA has been growing and as of this year the ASA saw nearly a 10% increase in contestants at the National level.
Of ASA state level; For 4 years Texas ASA has been tittering on 300 contestants at the State Championship. Illinois, two years in row now, has set state records for contestants at their ASA State Championship (96 & 108), though not outstanding, but better than the IAA has done in many years. 
Once member of the NFAA, has far back as I can remember, 2001, Field never reached 100 contestants, 80 perhaps. Era 2005? saw 91 contestants at the State Indoor. The only NFAA/IAA Championship to exceed 100 was the IAA 3D Championship, but know this Championship was open to the public. Of the norm, 105 to 108 was the total number of contestants. Black Diamond Archery, Inc. owns the would be recent 3D Championship record set in year 2003, 215 contestants. Led by one on the Board of Directors the 3D Championship was eliminated after 2006. I saw there was nothing for me and refused to run again for Central Board member and at this I let my NFAA membership expire as our club was a 3D club - had no Field or Outdoor range and I was the last club member to shoot both Field and Outdoor target. No club member since has participated in IAA events that I know of. 

I had thought to re-join the NFAA this year, but $60 dues, $25 shooting fees and the prospect of winning another $2.85 medal "Made in China" was not enough to look forward to. State Title? usually good for a pat on the back...the day you win or maybe the next day. After that you're just another archer.... Don't take this wrong. I don't know of any organization that gives recognition to State Champions unless it's good PR for that organization. 

I would ask, how do you get away from negativity when it's looking you in the face at every turn? The NFAA just does not change or allow it's states to adapt to the "climate" of their state.

I would also ask, how many would like a Climb to the Top of each venue? Just ball parking here. Of State ASA events there are Qualifiers, ours having 6 or more throughout the state. First timers, non-ASA members are allowed to compete for prizes. Of the next Qualifier or State Championship they must become members. Depending on number in class one becomes Qualified the State Championship or if one shoots two Qualifiers they become Qualified for the State Championship. X number of Qualifiers and the State Championship goes towards Shooter of the Year.

If one is truly wanting change then why complain and moan here? Get it in the Agenda for states to have a more open approach or diversify in order to promote archery forms.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

ASA is able to respond to market demands because it is a top-down organization seemingly run by one man making the rules and final decisions, whereas NFAA has 50 state directors making the rules and a president with an 8 member cabinet making the day to day decisions and a 3 employee office staff.

NFAA was a top down organization originally but reorganized to a bottom-up organization of state associations in 1967.

I do not agree with Kent (I have known his father since the 8th grade) on his points of rabid negativity about NFAA but I defend his right to voice them, since he is in his 8th year as an NFAA member. He does shoot indoor spots and ASA (K45 the last 2 years) but we have not been able to get him to try field.

As far as ASA having the capability to take over field archery and make it into something bigger than it is now, that is a misguided assessment.

The ASA membership base is all rubber deer shooters, purported to be intimidated by the targets, distances, and number of shots. How could ASA build a large field archery organization out of that.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Except for the required state indoor championship and state outdoor championship, states can do about anything they desire to try. Any state that dictates otherwise to their clubs is not being honest if they lay the blame on NFAA.

A club can have club shoots, pin shoots, and trophy shoots using field/hunter targets for strange rounds if they want. These shoots are their shoots, not state or national. The only thing they cannot do is to give NFAA awards for shoots not using NFAA rounds, rules, and regulations.

Our state is currently exploring some alternate rounds, distances, and number of arrows shot.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

FS560 said:


> Snip ......
> 
> Our state is currently exploring some alternate rounds, distances, and number of arrows shot.


Same here 560.
We have built a 4 star Field range, have 25 3D targets, and in excess of $30K invested.
It ain't working playing by NFAA structured events.
At our club, next year, SOMETHING is gonna change.
We simply don't know for sure what/how yet.


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## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

First let me say that I love field archery and will shoot it in some form until it is gone. I'm a newbie compared to some as I have only played the game and been a member for 20 years. I have been an officer at club level and at state level in more than one state. I have been able to get two clubs to build 14 target field ranges and am thankful for all the support. I know that the NFAA has to change and adapt to grow or it will continue its downward spiral. Here in Texas we have an indoor series and an outdoor series every year. Many shoots to attend and no membership required until state. We also have the largest ASA federation in the nation thanks to Mike and Tracy Smith. The time frames to shoot both rounds are about the same. There is a shoot of both 3D or field just about every weekend and here is the continuing complaint that I hear when trying to get people to shoot field, "Why should I shoot field for nothing when I can win money at a 3D"? Now mind you, several of the comments were from persons that may never finish in the top 3 or win any cash but the possibility is there. People's motivations have changed on why they shoot an event. It has been spoon fed by the ASA, right wrong or indifferent. There aren't that many different classes for ASA than NFAA, nor does the round take that much more or less time. I love to shoot field as I have stated and attend several of the field shoots every summer. I try to attend the state shoot as well. Having said that I shoot the 3D events based on the lure of money. If I attend a national level 3D and shoot well my trip is paid for. I'm not saying this is right or good for the sport, just saying this is how it is and has been spoken to by many that I have talked to. I believe that this was posted in another thread by Tony M. If there was something to shoot for other than the "awards" the NFAA tries to get us excited about then there might be more participation. It can't hurt to try, we are dying now. 
Chris Hansen


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Our club shoots a 60 arrow 300 field round. Its just enough,doesnt take forever and keeps people interested. Works for us.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

FS560 said:


> ASA is able to respond to market demands because it is a top-down organization seemingly run by one man making the rules and final decisions, whereas NFAA has 50 state directors making the rules and a president with an 8 member cabinet making the day to day decisions and a 3 employee office staff.
> 
> NFAA was a top down organization originally but reorganized to a bottom-up organization of state associations in 1967.
> 
> ...


ASA, Mike T, does indeed call the shots, but has meetings with his Directors, so really doesn't go off in some misguided direction.

I believe the Poster questioned if the ASA stepped in. Short, wanting something to change for the better.

Well, I doubt ASA members are intimidated shooting spots, distance or number of arrows. Oriented 3D, I made the transition to Field and Outdoor almost over night. Board member of the IAA I felt obligated to shoot all venues. I sighted in for Field, shot my first ever Field event, a warm-up of 14 Field and 14 Hunter, two weeks before the 2004 Field Championship and shot the Two Day Championship and won my class, Senior Adult Free Style. I shot two Spring Openers and won them both. I shot again in the 2005 Two Day Championship and came in 2nd, 2 points down. Other than making sure I was on I never practiced Field or shot Field anywhere other than the sanctioned events noted. For my term as Central Board member I also won several awards in Indoor and Outdoor. Several can attest I don't like shooting spots.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

schmel_me said:


> Our club shoots a 60 arrow 300 field round. Its just enough,doesnt take forever and keeps people interested. Works for us.


Interesting. Details please.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Who has shot the Field/3D Combo? This is one thought for the above noted club and I have tried a couple of times to get our club to have such. 7 bales for Field and 7 3D targets isn't back breaking to put on and shouldn't scare off people as long as the distance is held reasonable. The thought here is to get them interested and perhaps get them to try full Field, whether 14 or 28.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

FS560 said:


> ASA is able to respond to market demands because it is a top-down organization seemingly run by one man making the rules and final decisions, whereas NFAA has 50 state directors making the rules and a president with an 8 member cabinet making the day to day decisions and a 3 employee office staff.
> 
> NFAA was a top down organization originally but reorganized to a bottom-up organization of state associations in 1967.
> 
> ...


Sure Mike can respond quicker, it is his baby. He does consult with directors, but at the end of the day it is his decision...

As for the purported intimidation thingy.......I am not sure where this started, and who it is that is constantly saying this. Go to any ASA and you will see folks literally shooting arrows all day. The SIMS stays packed while it is open, the practice 3D ranges get pounded all day, and I have even seen folks shooting them late in the evenings with flashlights, and there is barely room on the practice bags all weekend....shooting a ton of arrows is not an issue for 3Ders. Heck, even the long shot buffalo stays busy all weekend, so the long shot is not the problem.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

field14 said:


> Ken, you have some good points...but the intent of bringing up stuff from 50 years ago is the "Hey, this has been tried before and FAILED miserably" perspective. This in an effort to warn the newbies that most all of the suggestions have been tried over and over again, and that really, the newbies haven't offered anything new or shall we say earth shattering.
> The shorter rounds are already in existence, no need to reinvent the wheel on that! USE the new rounds and try them, but again, that has been done over and over again too.
> 
> SO it really comes down to the naysayers and while I respect your opinion, your really severe and constant bashing of the NFAA and negativity isn't doing much to add any SOLUTION>....you are rather contributing to the problem.
> ...


Do you really want me to list the things that the NFAA leadership has mis-fired on in just the last 8 or so years? Now that would get ugly........ I could start with how the selling of the Cali headquarters went down.... Or exactly how rules (arrow diameter restriction) were passed and then recanted in a fashion that was absolutely and unequivocally against NFAA By-Laws/Constitution. Or I could go on about how the NFAA avoids it's responsibility to manage rules at National tournaments........ As a paying member of the organization when leadership fails they have failed me.



itbeso said:


> Very astute observations and well said. These points are the points you should have been making in previous posts. Agree wholeheartedly on the bashers who , decade after decade, doom the NFAA to failure while organizations like the ASA are where it's at. Of course, back in the 90s, ASA pros were shooting for $50,000 first places at the finals, and now? Maybe $3,000 if they are lucky to get enough pros competiting. I would say that is real progress, right Mr. Stigall. The NFAA is still the best game in town and has survived a lot of impostors along the way.


Mr. itbeso, as much as the ASA not paying pro's as much now as it did some years ago pleases you I don't know how it makes the NFAA the "best". It wasn't so much the ASA paying the money as it was sponsors. Sponsors were throwing big money around thinking it would be worth the investment. They were mistaken or simply realized they did not have to pay that much. It's certainly not the fault of the ASA or the Pro's shooting 3D. It was a "new" game, a new market that businesses had yet to explore. 

Long before supposed "nay sayers" the field archery game shriveled to virtual irrelevance. The "negativity" of local clubs did not in any way cause the popularity of the field game to nose dive or to cause the NFAA to stumble. The "negativity" towards the NFAA is a result of the structure of the NFAA and it's behavior. The "negativity" you speak of is a result not a cause...........

Anyway, keep doing things the way they've always been done and I'm sure the NFAA will one day again be in charge of the same popular field game it once had. Trying a significantly new "game" and a new approach along with organizational leadership changes is required for the NFAA to be more than a Yankton playground.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Do you really want me to list the things that the NFAA leadership has mis-fired on in just the last 8 or so years? Now that would get ugly........ I could start with how the selling of the Cali headquarters went down.... Or exactly how rules (arrow diameter restriction) were passed and then recanted in a fashion that was absolutely and unequivocally against NFAA By-Laws/Constitution. Or I could go on about how the NFAA avoids it's responsibility to manage rules at National tournaments........ As a paying member of the organization when leadership fails they have failed me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your biases are duly noted. Your facts are definitely askew. The original ASA made plenty of money and, yes, they had some good sponsors that they could still have except the new owners chose to introduce their own religious views on what sponsors would be appropriate, thereby eliminating a lot of potential suitors, but you already know all this because you have been in archery all of? how many years. As I have previously stated, the NFAA has survived a lot better naysayers than you and some of the others on here. It does not please me at all that the ASA purses for the pros have gone down as I have been a recipient of those checks on many occasions. Yankton would not be my first choice for National Headquarters, but , In my opinion, with the city donating all they have and Easton getting behind the building of facilities, its hard to argue with what they have accomplished there. I'm just thankful the Nationals are there only every 3rd year. I'm not going to dispute your arguments on Nfaa operations as I have many issues with them, however, I am working to try to correct those things that I could possibly affect. Meanwhile, I will not throw the Nfaa under the bus, so to speak, because there is not a better game in town than field archery.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Your biases are duly noted. Your facts are definitely askew. The original ASA made plenty of money and, yes, they had some good sponsors that they could still have except the new owners chose to introduce their own religious views on what sponsors would be appropriate, thereby eliminating a lot of potential suitors, but you already know all this because you have been in archery all of? how many years. As I have previously stated, the NFAA has survived a lot better naysayers than you and some of the others on here. It does not please me at all that the ASA purses for the pros have gone down as I have been a recipient of those checks on many occasions. Yankton would not be my first choice for National Headquarters, but , In my opinion, with the city donating all they have and Easton getting behind the building of facilities, its hard to argue with what they have accomplished there. I'm just thankful the Nationals are there only every 3rd year. I'm not going to dispute your arguments on Nfaa operations as I have many issues with them, however, I am working to try to correct those things that I could possibly affect. Meanwhile, I will not throw the Nfaa under the bus, so to speak, because there is not a better game in town than field archery.


35 years. First indoor state spot tournament was 1989.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Very astute observations and well said. These points are the points you should have been making in previous posts. Agree wholeheartedly on the bashers who , decade after decade, doom the NFAA to failure while organizations like the ASA are where it's at. Of course, back in the 90s, ASA pros were shooting for $50,000 first places at the finals, and now? *Maybe $3,000 if they are lucky to get enough pros competiting*. I would say that is real progress, right Mr. Stigall. The NFAA is still the best game in town and has survived a lot of impostors along the way.


You must have missed Levi Morgan's article in ANN (Archery News Now); $72,000.00 in 6 weeks. This is not chump change....
Pay checks, contingency money, still abound even though Hoyt has chose to downgrade in the 3D arena. ??? Unknown if still in effect, but Alpine had $2500.00 per any 1st place at a National.
Also, Factory Contracts for these Pros have grown more than years past. Much rumored is a few over $100,000.00 plus what they win and some expenses covered. And how many not as high? 

Yes, there are those who would like 3D to grow even larger, but such instant growth would surely put excessive pressure on the main 3D organizations. Something on the average of 1339 contestants per ASA national events and reported was 1255 for the IBO World for 8 Nationals. This totals 10,628 shooters and the other IBO Nationals not counted. And these are all cash paying events. 

Still, I believe deadx and some others wanted spot tournaments to grow so that Pros could make a living on spot archery alone. Does deadx shoot Field? This is nothing against deadx or spot Pros wishing a "living" shooting spots, but the public and sponsors aren't there to give such.

As for big name sponsors, outside of archery, I question again; Have these organization approach or been approached by such?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> You must have missed Levi Morgan's article in ANN (Archery News Now); $72,000.00 in 6 weeks. This is not chump change....
> Pay checks, contingency money, still abound even though Hoyt has chose to downgrade in the 3D arena. ??? Unknown if still in effect, but Alpine had $2500.00 per any 1st place at a National.
> Also, Factory Contracts for these Pros have grown more than years past. Much rumored is a few over $100,000.00 plus what they win and some expenses covered. And how many not as high?
> 
> ...


Sonny, You are referring to money that is mostly contingency money. I was referring to the first place money from ASA. If you did things right in a few years past, you could have won $50000 for first place at the Classic and $50000 for shooter of the year, all in the same weekend. Again, the money Levi has made is great but mostly contingency from sponsors. Where is the big money from ASA or IBO for that matter. People keep saying that Vegas is not an NFAA event but the fact is that WAF is owned by Nfaa and the payoff for the top pro at Vegas easily surpasses any payout by any 3-d organization.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Regardless, Field has to change and the NFAA with it. I see where Joliet just Posted of the Illinois State Championship. And the problem is this is a two day event. For me this too much for what I would get out of it. $60 NFAA dues broke down for however many IAA events per zone plus time and gas to get there plus I heard $30 entry fee plus over night stay, what $100 and chow? Now, the best I could do would be recieve another Patch, maybe, and add some add-ons to my Field/Hunter starter pins (at my cost) and maybe a plaque though I never recieved one for being Champion before.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Regardless, Field has to change and the NFAA with it. I see where Joliet just Posted of the Illinois State Championship. And the problem is this is a two day event. For me this too much for what I would get out of it. $60 NFAA dues broke down for however many IAA events per zone plus time and gas to get there plus I heard $30 entry fee plus over night stay, what $100 and chow? Now, the best I could do would be recieve another Patch, maybe, and add some add-ons to my Field/Hunter starter pins (at my cost) and maybe a plaque though I never recieved one for being Champion before.


Soooo. What do you "get" out of an ASA tournament? 40 shots for 7 hours on the course (main event). You gladly pay TWO overnight, fuel, lodging, and all that for a 3-D event? Cost per arrow shot is way higher!
Why does it always have to be about AWARDS that you might "get"? You have either the same or maybe even lower odds of getting NOTHING from the attendance at an ASA event.

Now, with regard to the two-day event? I couldn't agree with you more on that issue. I know of a few States that went to a ONE day State field event...and their attendance more than doubled. Iowa is one of those States.
You will hear the naysayers....I MUST shoot with my competition, so we need two days to do that? WRONG... It is so simple. The format is 14 field, 14 hunter, 14 animal.
You shoot your field round grouped as whatever. Then, once completed, you turn in your cards and while having lunch, they tally the field round scores and then regroup you to go out in the group with your closest competition for the 14 hunter and 14 animal. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

It is silly to have a TWO day State field event year after year and not have the attendance. Just cuz the State field has "always" been two days doesn't mean that it MUST always be two days. 
I've brought this up at State meetings in the past...and the "naysayers" and "die hards" thought it was ridiculous...cuz a State field MUST be two days, just cuz......Well it is failing miserably, so why not try something different...especially when a neighboring State has been so very successful with a ONE day State field AND State Target format?
Sonny, your NFAA dues are NOT the entire $60...that includes your IAA dues, which I think are MORE than the NFAA dues. Both are billed together under one fee. So don't paint the NFAA dues as being so "high"; they aren't.
WE do need a solution to this State Field situation, but that takes VOTES and a push with a majority to get the changes made. Won't happen if people just keep going away, peeing and moaning about it, and not getting together to basically FORCE the changes.
field14


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Regardless, Field has to change and the NFAA with it. I see where Joliet just Posted of the Illinois State Championship. And the problem is this is a two day event. For me this too much for what I would get out of it. $60 NFAA dues broke down for however many IAA events per zone plus time and gas to get there plus I heard $30 entry fee plus over night stay, what $100 and chow? Now, the best I could do would be recieve another Patch, maybe, and add some add-ons to my Field/Hunter starter pins (at my cost) and maybe a plaque though I never recieved one for being Champion before.


Regardless??? A state field championship happens once a year but it puts you out to take two days to enjoy it? Field 14 is right about the reward being the satisfaction of being the champion. And what is wrong with "JUST" getting a silver bowl for being National champion. As far as complaining about $60, I see a lot of archers who complain about the same thing, but don't think anything about spending that much for cigarettes and beer for the weekend. I feel your headline says it all, like a lot of folks, local hotshot, but afraid to go to a championship shoot for fear of being exposed as mediocre, so you make all these excuses as to why the Nfaa is on the wrong track. Field archery does not have to change, but I would agree that the people running the Nfaa need to change their attitudes and methods.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

field14 said:


> Soooo. What do you "get" out of an ASA tournament? 40 shots for 7 hours on the course (main event). You gladly pay TWO overnight, fuel, lodging, and all that for a 3-D event? Cost per arrow shot is way higher!
> Why does it always have to be about AWARDS that you might "get"? You have either the same or maybe even lower odds of getting NOTHING from the attendance at an ASA event.


No. I don't attend ASA Nationals, not any more. Once was enough. And it was 8 hours total to shoot 40 arrows and two nights for the motel, which we shared cost. As you noted I was referring to State events, the IAA Field Championship. Though club 3Ds are my main stay of shooting I do shoot one day ASA Qualifiers and the one day ASA 3D Championship...when they are close enough... I'm not traveling 4 hours, shoot and travel 4 hours back. For one, I know how good I am and my ASA class is far from having enough to win anything much over getting my entry fee back. I believe last years 1st place recieved $50, which means there were 5 of us in class.

And you are correct of the Two Day Championships. The Outdoor Championship was cut back to a One Day Championship and attendance either remained as good or improved as per what the clubs said. Still, the club wasn't all that happy with the IAA taking half the intake. I heard the IAA share is now 30% of gross intake after target deductions plus cost of all awards.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Regardless??? A state field championship happens once a year but it puts you out to take two days to enjoy it? Field 14 is right about the reward being the satisfaction of being the champion. And what is wrong with "JUST" getting a silver bowl for being National champion. As far as complaining about $60, I see a lot of archers who complain about the same thing, but don't think anything about spending that much for cigarettes and beer for the weekend. I feel your headline says it all, like a lot of folks, local hotshot, but afraid to go to a championship shoot for fear of being exposed as mediocre, so you make all these excuses as to why the Nfaa is on the wrong track. Field archery does not have to change, but I would agree that the people running the Nfaa need to change their attitudes and methods.


Wrong outlook. I noted dues "broken down." The Indoor Championship is Two days. The two Aggregates leading up to the Indoor Championship are one day each. Then the Outdoor Championship is one day, but you may shoot the second day and if you score is higher it is applied to the Championship. And then the Field Championship is two days. My time, my money and I ain't blowin' it on some motel room. Just I like noted to Tom, I'll never again attend another 3D National event. Two days and 8 damned hours to shoot 40 targets! Many like it. I don't.....

Again, I was referring to our State Championship, not Nationals.

Afraid of shooting a Championship? I beg your pardon. Champion first time ever competing in a Field event. Never shot a Field event in my life until a one time training session at the "Warm-Up" right before the Championship, 14 Field, 14 Hunter. Won two Spring Openers, one 14 Field and one 28 Field. Took 2nd in the my last go at IAA Field Championship. IAA Indoor Championship, took 3rd two years in a row. IAA Outdoor Championship, took 3rd two years in a row. IAA 3D Championship, 2nd two years in a row. My term expired as IAA Central Board member I never again shot these events. The IAA eliminated the 3D Championship and I and the club I'm a member of eliminated the NFAA/IAA. 

Forgot. I don't drink.

One thing for sure, 3D isn't challenged by lack of attendance. So make a suggest to improve attendance for Field events, not just on the National level, but all levels, State and club.....


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Wrong outlook. I noted dues "broken down." The Indoor Championship is Two days. The two Aggregates leading up to the Indoor Championship are one day each. Then the Outdoor Championship is one day, but you may shoot the second day and if you score is higher it is applied to the Championship. And then the Field Championship is two days. My time, my money and I ain't blowin' it on some motel room. Just I like noted to Tom, I'll never again attend another 3D National event. Two days and 8 damned hours to shoot 40 targets! Many like it. I don't.....
> 
> Again, I was referring to our State Championship, not Nationals.
> 
> ...


Sonny, I wish I had the magic answer to make everything right with field archery. Unfortunately, I don't but I think with little tweeks here and there, rather than panicking, the Nfaa can right the ship. By the way, congrats on your field archery successes.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Sonny, I wish I had the magic answer to make everything right with field archery. Unfortunately, I don't but I think with little tweeks here and there, rather than panicking, the Nfaa can right the ship. By the way, congrats on your field archery successes.


Well, we don't have the magic either, but we're going to try a stab at it. The club I and field14 note above, I've spoke with the President, he has spoke with one that had Field doing well at another club. I suggested the Field/3D Combo is as it might capture some 3Ders. And I'd like to try it. 

Thank you for the Congrats. My instructor going into my first ever Field was Don Will (s?). Don was highlited in Archery Magazine and a female, I believe, for 35 years of consectutive attendance at some NFAA Championship event. I had to run! They were going dose me with a bucket of water for cleaning the 80 Walk Up my first time competing... Me didn't get wet


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## SMiller937 (Dec 6, 2013)

field14 said:


> As you keep posting names and other such "reminders" I recall more and more...HOWEVER...you gotta also remember, you lead the impression that the person was Shooting BH equipment...and then recanted that when he shot PAA events...he used a moveable sight - - so you were misleading.
> I knew a BAREBOW shooter that won the Iowa State Indoor in TWO divisions...Barebow and then Freestyle Limited...shooting 599 in BAREBOW, and 600 in Freestyle Limited. I phoned him to congratulate him and also asked him when he "converted" to sights. He then told me he didn't convert, but decided to step UP and shoot the Freestyle Limited but shot it BAREBOW and still won...with a higher score than what he shot in his normal BAREBOW.
> 
> If you don't live in a specific area...you don't know the intricacies of said area. So, you, just like me don't necessarily have all your facts straight either.
> ...


I have heard this story before, Victor Berger is my grandpa lol


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