# Tiller question



## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

You could tiller it and see what it does, but the way a one cam works, I personally don't think it will do much. The one cam is really never out of time, so I don't see how tillering could change the wheel, limb balance that much. Maby I'll learn something here too......It won't equalize with wheels or two cams. Ever hear of tiller tuning????? Don't know if it works for one cams or not....


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Tiller will NOT correct for this, due to the cams and strings maintaining balance of force between the limbs more than your hand on the bowstring can. (notice on a recurve, if you take a strong hold on the riser and string, you can forcefully change the tiller, however on a compound you simply cannot under normal human strength.

Tiller will only adjust the grip angle of the riser to the string. What you can do, on most bows, is adjust the TIMING for the style of the release, as in two fingers or three fingers. I built a three finger replicator for my drawboard for this purpose and your timing will change significantly depending on where and how you grab the string. Your fingers are unwinding more string in different places compared to a release shooter and the average drawboard setup replicates the jaws of a release.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

> Tiller will only adjust the grip angle of the riser to the string. What you can do, on most bows, is adjust the TIMING for the style of the release, as in two fingers or three fingers. I built a three finger replicator for my drawboard for this purpose and your timing will change significantly depending on where and how you grab the string. Your fingers are unwinding more string in different places compared to a release shooter and the average drawboard setup replicates the jaws of a release.
> Yesterday 02:15 PM


Thanks for the responses. Would the answer be different with a two cam?

Also, I am shooting a Mathews that is timed perfectly with the timing holes. Do you think I might somehow mitigate this by taking the bow slightly out of time?

I do appreciate the help.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

A bow with a single cam and idler wheel is much easier to setup than a 2-cam bow but you loose the ability to do a really precision tune, like you can on say a hybrid Hoyt cam, IMHO. Changing the tiller and nock height on a Solo-Cam doesn't do much, at least not like on a 2-cam bow. The Mathews manuals I've read all recommend zero tiller. I adjust the cable on my Apex bows to change the draw lenth and it doesn't have any noticealbe affect on cam performance although I haven't tried a chronograph. The cam does change position when you change cable length.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

I think maybe the answer you're looking for is why you're feathers are torn up inside lower when using the flipper? Along with the bareshaft craziness?

I would look at things like cam/idler lean, and then finding a more precise match of spine on your arrows to correct those problems, before I would adjust timing or tiller, and it sounds like your one cam is already timed, so I doubt that the problem lies there.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Thanks but what puzzles me is that I can change rests to the launcher style and the problem goes away, and the bare shaft flies great out to 30 yds. I sure wish I could figure out why the flipper will not do the same thing.

Anyway, thanks for the input.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

Is the plunger set to weak? I ask, because you get great flight from a rest that has no side give, so what else is making th difference?


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

mitchell said:


> Thanks but what puzzles me is that I can change rests to the launcher style and the problem goes away, and the bare shaft flies great out to 30 yds. I sure wish I could figure out why the flipper will not do the same thing.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the input.


Pardon the simplicity but have you tried raising the nocking point accordingly? sounds like maybe some downwards push on the nock (which would explain the tiller/timing questions) equating into some fletching contact. Or perhaps still some spine issues matching up the nodes on the side pressure.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Yes, I have tried the nock set changes. I guess its time to go back and try some spine tweaking. These things can be maddening, but usually, when you finally figure it out, you learn something that will help later.

Thanks again for the suggestions.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

I've been pondering this a bit. You got two seperate things possibly going on. The inside fletch wear with the flipper is because the fletch end is tight against the riser AND/OR the fletch end is staying down hard on the rest. So you got either a spine thing, a rest thing, or a cam orientation thing. The rest windage and spine you can play with easily. With a release and a drop-away, it's easy to see what the orientation is doing. Not so easy with fingers and a fixed rest. What I've found with a release/DA, if the cam looks correct, and the arrow bisects the rest hole, but still gives a high or low tear coming off the bow, the cam orientation can be adjusted to eliminate it. Now with two under fingers the nock pressure I would guess is much like using a release below the nock. It's putting down pressure on the nock end on release. You can either raise the nock, or adjust the cam. Get the nocking area of the string up, so let off the cable a few twists, or twist the string several on each end, reset nock height.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Red,

Would that course of action be appropriate for the one cam? 

I've tried nockset ad nausium if you know what I mean. If this was a 2 cam, I would try the tiller adjustment, but the one cam throws me. I do appreciate the feedback, and am interested in your suggestions, I just do not follow completely.

Which way would you go with the cam?

I was so confident about my shaft because I could shoot the bare shaft with the other rest. NOw I am wondering if the flexibility in the rest that works may just be disguising a shaft that is not perfect. 

Thanks for all the contemplating.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

I have the feeling your blade rest was disguising, or doing what it's supposed to do - give a little. I think the nock end was going low off the string. I also think that would explain the inside fletch wear (odd vane out). The nock end was hard down and tight against the flipper arm where it has most resistance. Tiller useing the limb bolts just moves the nock point on a single cam for the most part. But changing cam orientation via string or cable has a different effect. Think of it as a spool. It feeds out and back but it's path is dependent on it's starting position. For a low nock tear condition, untwist the cable a few turns, or twist the string several, it will bring the nocking area up. Reset the nockpoint and try it. I've helped a couple guys that shoot a release under the arrow and they had low nock tears, and we were able to tune it out with cam orientation like this.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

Hang on!
Geez I feel like an azz, I just checked back in my notes. You want to go the other way. Twist the cable or untwist the string, bringing the nocking area down! Then reset nockpoint. You want a little lift. Sorry man.


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## CX250MAX (Mar 21, 2007)

have you tried adjusting the nock in the arrow maybe twisted a little bit. always remember Keep It Simple Stupid that has always worked for me


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Very helpful ideas to try. I will get back to you, and thanks again for taking the time to help.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

When you shoot with the flipper and plunger where does the bare shaft land compaired to the fletched shafts?


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Mitchell...this post wont help with Your problem, but I just wanted to add that Your issues are the very reason that I went away from those sweet-shooting Mathews single cam bows...I could never get away from wearing out the bottom feather on my arrows...The only Mathews finger shooter that I know is Chris Stachler, and He uses a Bodoodle...I'm going to the shop tonight, I'll ask a few questions about this with our Mathews "Guru"...He posts on here as "BigEves34"...He really knows His stuff with Mathews bows, and single cams in general...Maybe send Him a P.M., tell Him that You know Me , and shoot a Drenalin LD with Fingers...He has 3 LD's, allthough He doesnt shoot Fingers, He maybe can help You out...He's a heck of a nice guy as well...Take care!....Jim


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Thanks Jim. You know down here I sometimes feel like I am on an island; not many fingers guys other than a few trad guys.

I've been through things like this before; they can be maddening, but once if ever you solve them, you usually learn something worthwhile.

Of all things, I was reading an article last night by Larry Wise. He refers to a Mathews guy that he knows. I may send him an email and see if that scares anything up.

I appreciate the help. Still love the LD.


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

I guess you shoot a mathews. Stick with it. I have no idea other than you are nocked way too low. Check your specs over with a fine tooth comb. Get them dead on and try again. I shoot a 60# C3 and I just screw the limbs down all the way. No issues. I have heard people say they tiller tune them but I have no experience with that so I stay even. Yeah this is probably no help.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

mitchell said:


> Thanks Jim. You know down here I sometimes feel like I am on an island; not many fingers guys other than a few trad guys.
> 
> I've been through things like this before; they can be maddening, but once if ever you solve them, you usually learn something worthwhile.
> 
> ...


....Hey, Mitchell...My Mathews Guru wasnt at the shop tonight, He is shooting the London KY. ASA shoot...I'll try to get in touch with Him ASAP...I'll get back with You..Take Care...Jim


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

Three things to check: Since you are shooting with your fingers, first see if you are pressuring your fingers unequally. Have someone stand at your side and see if the arrow bows slightly. If it bows down in the middle try raising your elbow slightly.

Second, you may have to rotate your nocks slightly. Try spraying some aerosol powder like Cruex(more than one use) along the arrow side facing the bow. Spray enough that the pressure button will scrape some off and leave a trail. See if the pressue button leaves a mark centered between the arrows. If it's too close to one feather, rotate the nocks to compensate. 

Third, see if your fletching is hitting the bow or fittings. Run some red lipstick along the fletching thick enough to leave a mark on the bow. See where the marks end up. Rotat the nocks to adjust.

Let me know if this helps! TAO


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

*Correction*

Three things to check: Since you are shooting with your fingers, first see if you are pressuring your fingers unequally. Have someone stand at your side and see if the arrow bows slightly. If it bows down in the middle try *lowering* your elbow slightly.

Second, you may have to rotate your nocks slightly. Try spraying some aerosol powder like Cruex(more than one use) along the arrow side facing the bow. Spray enough that the pressure button will scrape some off and leave a trail. See if the pressue button leaves a mark centered between the arrows. If it's too close to one feather, rotate the nocks to compensate. 

Third, see if your fletching is hitting the bow or fittings. Run some red lipstick along the fletching thick enough to leave a mark on the bow. See where the marks end up. Rotat the nocks to adjust.

Let me know if this helps! TAO


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

*Correction 2* Sorry about that! My fingers wont type what I'm thinking.

Three things to check: Since you are shooting with your fingers, first see if you are pressuring your fingers unequally. Have someone stand at your side and see if the arrow bows slightly. If it bows down in the middle try *lowering* your elbow slightly.

Second, you may have to rotate your nocks slightly. Try spraying some aerosol powder like Cruex(more than one use) along the arrow side facing the bow. Spray enough that the pressure button will scrape some off and leave a trail. See if the pressue button leaves a mark centered between the *fletching*. If it's too close to one feather, rotate the nocks to compensate. 

Third, see if your fletching is hitting the bow or fittings. Run some red lipstick along the fletching thick enough to leave a mark on the bow. See where the marks end up. Rotate the nocks to adjust.

Let me know if this helps! TAO


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

Check and make sure your idler wheel is square. If its canted it can through the arrow into the rest.


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## Darksider (Apr 14, 2006)

I shoot Mathews. There is no tiller adjustment on a Mathews! Just max the limbs down & back out the limbs bolt equally to your desired weight. While they are maxed out check your timing holes or cam rotation on Max cam. Also, ATA & Brace height.

Ok, from what your telling us. It is the different rests that causes the problem. It could be a pressure issue on the plunger spring. It could also be a torquing or (As stated above) canting problem?
Good luck!!:thumbs_up


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

I am going to buck conventional wisdom and say you really need to adjust your tiller. Even single cams, Mathews' claims to the contrary aside, can be made to shoot better when tiller is properly adjusted. I had a single cam once that, when bottomed out and backed off an equal number of turns, paper tuned to shoot a perfect bullet hole with the nock point a full inch below square. The tech that did the paper tuning fought and struggled for hours to get it to do it. I adjusted the tiller, reset the nock point and had it paper tuned back to bullet holes in 15 minutes.

Adjusting tiller to your grip and shooting style makes any bow MUCH easier to tune. When I'm setting up a new bow, it's the first thing I do, after verifying brace height and axle to axle measurements are within spec. Bottoming out the limb bolts and backing them off equally? I'm sorry, but I don't trust ANY factory to supply perfectly matched limbs.

Like my point of view on tiller and single cam bows, my method of tiller adjustment is not exactly universally accepted. It works for me. I'll walk out on the limb pass it on. You judge if my rationale has merit and whether or not to give it a try.

Think of the bow's riser as a lever. The limbs at each end of the riser are the weights. Your grip is the fulcrum. Or a fat kid and a skinny kid on a seesaw, if that helps you visualize it. You want to balance the lever over the fulcrum by adjusting the weight at either end. Put the fat kid on a diet and fatten up the skinny kid. 

What to do: Using your normal shooting form and taking appropriate safety precautions, aim a pin at a spot on the wall and slowly draw the string back. Watch what the pin does. If it is pulled high (by far the most common when tiller is set to zero at each end of the riser) the top limb is overpowering the bottom limb. Take weight off the top limb, add to the bottom, or both. If the pin is pulled low, add weight to the top limb, take weight off the bottom, or both. Keep adjusting until you can draw the string straight back and the bow does not try to pull the pin one way or the other.

I have no high speed camera footage to support my theory, but I believe that the bow will go through the same forces during the shot cycle as it does through the draw cycle. If one limb is overpowering the other and making the riser rock back and forth in your hand as you draw and aim, it's going to do the same thing during the shot. Balance the power in those limbs so they are not fighting each other during the draw and they won't be fighting during the shot.

When you get the limbs' power balanced for your unique grip and shooting style, your bow will draw smoother. You could feel less recoil on the shot. It might be quieter. It might even be easier to hold on target. And, no guarantees of course, but it just might keep your feathers from slamming into the rest.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Arthur P said:


> I am going to buck conventional wisdom and say you really need to adjust your tiller. Even single cams, Mathews' claims to the contrary aside, can be made to shoot better when tiller is properly adjusted. I had a single cam once that, when bottomed out and backed off an equal number of turns, paper tuned to shoot a perfect bullet hole with the nock point a full inch below square. The tech that did the paper tuning fought and struggled for hours to get it to do it. I adjusted the tiller, reset the nock point and had it paper tuned back to bullet holes in 15 minutes. Grip angle and bow hand positioning can cause this
> Adjusting tiller to your grip and shooting style makes any bow MUCH easier to tune. I agree When I'm setting up a new bow, it's the first thing I do, after verifying brace height and axle to axle measurements are within spec. Bottoming out the limb bolts and backing them off equally? I'm sorry, but I don't trust ANY factory to supply perfectly matched limbs.
> 
> Like my point of view on tiller and single cam bows, my method of tiller adjustment is not exactly universally accepted. It works for me. I'll walk out on the limb pass it on. You judge if my rationale has merit and whether or not to give it a try.
> ...


in red.


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## HighCountry46 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a HC Supreme Pro-two cam- and ive found that it shoots best and i def like shooting it with 1/2 to 3/4 turn out on the lower limb. split finger draw 1 up 2 down and drop the bottom at full draw. with my Connie it was the top limb turned down that shot best.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

> Riser doesn't rock back and forth unless your cams are out of time or your cams have problem with level nock travel, nothing you do with your limbs will change that, assuming your limbs have the same deflection at both ends. The limbs bend so that the force on each axle is the same, and then the spring rate is constant between the two with any further deflection, within practical geometry of the limb's dimensions and riser setup.


I couldn't disagree more with that entire premise. I know... that's the conventional wisdom and that's exactly what I'm bucking. Some manufacturer invented that whole doctrine to make his cam system sound simpler and more marketable. Not the first time facts have been assassinated in interest of marketing. Won't be the last.

You acknowledged above that grip position plays a role in tiller. There is no such thing as one universal tiller setting that will be optimal for every single archer. I maintain it's the imbalance in strength between the limbs that cause riser movement.

I stand behind what I posted because the method has been very successful for me on bows of all cam styles - even traditional bows. Takes a heckuva lot of sanding to adjust tiller on them though. Compounds have those lovely bolts to adjust limb tension. So simple.

It's really easy to tweak the limb bolts a little and record how much you moved them. If you don't like the way the bow feels or shoots afterward, it's really easy to tweak those bolts right back. If you like the way the bow feels after the adjustment, you'll need to tweak your nock position to get back to perfect tune.

So, I invite you to try the tillering method I outlined for yourself. I suggest adjusting one of your backup bows first. I'd be willing to bet you'll follow up with the same adjustments on your primary. If you don't try it, you'll never know. 

You'll either have the pleasure of proving me wrong, or have the pleasure of a bow that feels much nicer to draw and shoot, and holds steadier. You've got nothing to lose.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Arthur P said:


> I couldn't disagree more with that entire premise. I know... that's the conventional wisdom and that's exactly what I'm bucking. Some manufacturer invented that whole doctrine to make his cam system sound simpler and more marketable. Not the first time facts have been assassinated in interest of marketing. Won't be the last.
> 
> You acknowledged above that grip position plays a role in tiller. There is no such thing as one universal tiller setting that will be optimal for every single archer. I maintain it's the imbalance in strength between the limbs that cause riser movement. Yes this is true, but can only be corrected with replacement of the limbs.
> 
> ...


Oh trust me I've played around with tiller a lot. I've never ever found it to correct anything tuning wise however (except relating to bowhand torque/grip angle, as you mentioned), two cam or single cam. I won't say that I've tried many single cams out however. There is one bow that it does make a difference on, and that's a Jennings Unistar or Bear whitetail pinnacle that has the cam mounted on a riser pylon; this is due to the sensitivity of geometric change to the string/cam angle causing timing changes. I use tiller to adjust riser angle on my two cams for comfort (which having a comfortable and repeatable bow hand grip is underrated by many archers) and also for slight nocking point adjustments when I feel lazy or short of time.

Another interesting thought about the analogy from tillering a trad bow versus a limb bolt. Tillering a trad bow is changing the deflection rating, or spring rate of that limb. Turning a limb bolt is changing the preload without changing the spring rate/deflection rating. Turning a limb bolt is more akin to steam bending a limb for static tiller. If you get a compound with a poor match of deflection ratings on the limbs, changing the limb preload by adjusting the bolts will not fix the problem, the problem being how much each limb tip moves in relation to a specific amount of string letout. All turning the limb bolts will do in this case is change the preload on one limb, which the strings will carry over exactly to the other limb until the other limb has the same preload, which will move the limb tips equally up or down in relation to the riser whilst turning a bolt, but when the draw cycle begins, the difference in limb tip movement (or lack thereof, with matched limbs) remains exactly the same as before. Exactly. Unless cantilevered beams don't behave in archery like they do in the rest of the natural world. That is, like a spring.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

Obviously, the respective 'spring rate' of each limb is not changed by moving the limb bolts. They are what they are. What IS changed is the preload, as you noted. 

You've got one limb that's several pounds heavier in spring rate than the other. With quality control and production costs what it is these days, it happens. With the limbs adjusted with equal tension, the one with the heavier spring rating has more preload than the other. OR you grip the bow with a low wrist and heavy palm contact which moves your 'fulcrum' closer to the bottom limb and adds mechanical advantage to the top limb. OR you grip with a high wrist with a lot of contact in the throat, moving the 'fulcrum' up closer to the top limb which has the effect of adding mechanical advantage to the bottom limb. One limb having more mechanical advantage gives the exact same effect of that limb having more preload.

If one limb is preloaded more than another, it's going to maintain that amount of preload all the way through the draw and shot cycles, meaning one limb is going to be drawing more pounds than the other. 

You adjust the preload to balance the limbs. No need to make this any more complicated than it needs to be. Tiller is a very simple, straight forward adjustment. I'll leave deflection measurements and such to theorists. I'm just a shooter and know this method of adjusting tiller works for me.

Try it for yourself or don't. It's your bow and your business. I'm simply trying to pass along something I've been doing that has made my shooting better and more ejoyable for many years. Hopefully _someone_ will be open minded enough to find the information useful. Maybe it'll be the guy that snuffs you at the next tournament. :RockOn:


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Well, to both of you guys, many, many thanks for all the insights. I hoped, and now it has been confirmed, that somebody out here could give me some things to try. I only wish both of you were physically close enough to me so that I could come get some face to face schooling and get my mind around your viewpoint even better.

All of this interests me greatly. And as I mentioned at the onset, while I love my Mathews bows, I have consistently had this issue. It doesn't show up much if at all with a fletched shaft, but it does show up with a bare shaft, which makes me nuts. 

I should have mentioned this at the onset and did not (sorry); I am in the 8th week of rehab from rotator surgery, so I will not be able to experiment further for another month or so. When I can and do, I will try to get back to this thread.

In the meantime, many many thanks for all the effort to educate me. And any more thoughts you have will be welcomed.

This forum can get a little slow at times, but the wealth of help available out here is sooooooo beneficial to those of us who do not have access to experts in our area.

Cato


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## Darksider (Apr 14, 2006)

What I said came from Mathews. I figure they know a little about solocams. You have a cam & an idler wheel(Pulley)[inherently unbalanced]. Tiller adj. is fine when you have dual cams/wheel & can adjust to achieve balance(Monsters may be an exception, not sure). 
If adjusting tiller makes you happy. That's fine.

As for the risor movement: I have seen hi-speed footage. you would be amazed at how much a risor oscillates at release. 
Do a search on Youtube using terms; Hi-speed bow


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

> What I said came from Mathews. I figure they know a little about solocams.


I already addressed that point in a previous post. Mathews knows single cam bows, certainly. They know marketing even better. They also know that the vast majority of people that buy their bows are bowhunters, not competitive shooters, and probably don't shoot more than 50 arrows in a year's time - if that. They know that most of their customers pay to get their bows 'tuned' at the pro shop. They know that most of their customers wouldn't know the difference between a properly tillered bow and a pile of bricks. They know the tillering method they put on their site will be sufficient to provide a satisfactory basic tune for most of their customers. 

This is not unique to Mathews. All bow companies are aware of the exact same things about their customers. All provide enough info for their customers to obtain a satisfactory basic tune. Some folks don't stop at basic tuning.

Call this tillering method I outlined 'advanced' tuning if you want. As I said, you are free to totally disregard it if you want. No skin off my nose.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I enjoy setting and adjusting tiller on my two-cam Hoyt bows and can adjust either tiller or nock height to get perfect bareshaft groups. Not so with my Mathews bows. I have three Apex bows and two bareshaft perfectly. One shoots a little nock low at 15 yards. I've adjusted tiller on that bow every which way and it has nearly no affect at all. Even moving the nock up and down has little affect. You have to try it to believe it. The one cam bow with idler wheel does not tune like a two-cam bow. I sure wish it did.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

That's interesting, AKRuss. I must admit I have never tuned a Mathews. They don't make one in my draw length so I've never owned one. Only single cams I've owned and tuned have been from McPherson, Pearson, Bear, Hoyt and Martin. I've had no problem at all making tiller adjustments with any of them. 

The Pearson had a dual track idler, but all the rest were typical single track idlers like Mathews. So, I would have assumed Mathews couldn't have been any different. You reckon you got an oddball or have you seen a pattern like this with multiple Mathews bows?


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Arthur P said:


> Obviously, the respective 'spring rate' of each limb is not changed by moving the limb bolts. They are what they are. What IS changed is the preload, as you noted.
> 
> You've got one limb that's several pounds heavier in spring rate than the other. With quality control and production costs what it is these days, it happens. With the limbs adjusted with equal tension, the one with the heavier spring rating has more preload than the other. OR you grip the bow with a low wrist and heavy palm contact which moves your 'fulcrum' closer to the bottom limb and adds mechanical advantage to the top limb. OR you grip with a high wrist with a lot of contact in the throat, moving the 'fulcrum' up closer to the top limb which has the effect of adding mechanical advantage to the bottom limb. One limb having more mechanical advantage gives the exact same effect of that limb having more preload.
> 
> ...


This is just for those reading that may be getting confused about simple statics and dynamics as applied to bow design...I mean no disrespect to ArthurP

You cannot have a different amount (in pounds, slugs, kg, newtons, pick the unit of force measurement of your choice) of preload in one limb than the other...it's physically impossible with compound bows that have the limbs connected to each other through a single axle with a rotating cam. One limb will pull the other limb over (simutaneous with any adjustment) until the preload is exactly equalized. While you will have differing tensions in each of the cables and string due to the eccentric nature of the cam design, the sum of all the tensions acts exactly, and without torque, through the axle centerlines, along a line drawn from axle to axle at brace, or summation of force, somewhere between aTa and your nocking point, during the draw. 

As an example of what Im talking about, take a 1" conduit about 2 feet long. Attach a 36" 1" PVC pipe to one end, and a yard stick to the other. Take a piece of string and make youreself a bow, that is obviously wildly untillered, with the yardstick limb being way too weak. Notice when you draw it, the nocking point goes down towards the side of the strong limb, and that as a result, the riser/conduit, tilts forward on the weak limb side. Any attempts to change the preload, or the angle of the yards stick to make the limbs appear more equalized at brace height, will do nothing about the nock travel once you start drawing the bow, as the nocking point still will drive down towards the strong limb regardless (unless you change the location of your bow hand, significantly, towards the strong side limb, which you can't do with pretty much anything but a Japanese Yumi. Now, if you think that cams and strings have any difference to this effect, one would be wrong, try it for yourself. attach a pulley on either side, wrap the string around so that you have two buss cables and a string like normal, pull on the string, and still, the same thing occurs, the nocking point drives towards the strong limb, only not as far, because the limb tips, aren't moving, as far. 

While I don't doubt that tillering has helped you tune your own practical examples, it annoys me when success in in the practical world is attributed to the wrong scientific principle and then perpetuated to others in extrapolated cases and advice.

I think people are overlooking the importance of level nock travel (or acceptable nock travel), and grip location/angle / style/ suitability. Which, the latter, is what I use tillering for. The former, will not change it, unless you change or sand/scrape down the limbs.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

All this talk in my previous posts, is possibly why some shooters who are experiencing an uncorrectable tail high or tail low tuning problem, find success when they swap their limbs top to bottom.

To mitchell, the reason most of the rests exist, other than flippers, is precisely because of this fletching wear/contact issue that you're talking about, back from the days when all anyone shot were recurves off the shelf, or at most, a flipper. If the bow shoots good with the prong, man, that's what I would shoot. I look at it like this, I could really really want to run a drag car at the INDY 500, and could spend a lot of time getting one to be good at it, but when I could get an Indy car that I know already works at Indy racing, why not just use the Indy car.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

> While I don't doubt that tillering has helped you tune your own practical examples, it annoys me when success in in the practical world is attributed to the wrong scientific principle and then perpetuated to others in extrapolated cases and advice.


My sincerest apologies for annoying you with terminology that is not scientifically correct. 

I am not a scientist or archery theorist. I am a retired machinist who spent his working life figuring out how to take the scientific principles and theories that engineers put on paper and bring them into the real, practical world in the form of precision machined parts. Naturally, my archery techniques are also based on what works rather than single minded devotion to theory.

Therefore, it annoys me no end when people expound theoretical scientific principles to tell me why techniques are not possible when I have had proven success in the practical world for many years, on many types of bows with a variety of cam systems. Scientific theories... Remember when the theories of aerodynamics proved conclusively that bumblebees are entirely incapable of flight? 

You get bent out of shape by improper use of scientific terminology. If science is that important to you... What say you about criticizing the technique before testing according to scientific method? 

The tillering method I outlined is simple and practical. Setting tiller to zero at both ends of the riser or bottoming the limbs out and backing them off equally, these are simply starting points. I posted the method knowing full well it goes against currently held viewpoint - to quote myself, "bucking conventional wisdom" - and with the full expectation that some 'experts' would jump on it like chickens on a June bug. 

Maybe someone will find the info useful. If so, that's my reward. To those who reject the entire premise: :elf_moon:


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Arthur P said:


> My sincerest apologies for annoying you with terminology that is not scientifically correct.
> 
> I am not a scientist or archery theorist. I am a retired machinist who spent his working life figuring out how to take the scientific principles and theories that engineers put on paper and bring them into the real, practical world in the form of precision machined parts. Naturally, my archery techniques are also based on what works rather than single minded devotion to theory.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.


Though I've never seen the scientific proof that bumblebees can't fly, only heard it from non-pilots that were trying to get a rise out someone trained in aerodynamics. But it is a good example of how physical attributes get applied in the wrong fashion.


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## Darksider (Apr 14, 2006)

Alright, I've read & reread the different posts & have found it very amusing.

As for the original question:
For a single cam, make sure your bow is in specs = Timing, ATA & brace height. (AKruss,Maybe they are not the best bow for the tinkerer.) 
If one rest shoot better than another. Use the one that works. If your smacking shafts at 20+yrds & shooting straight with a certain rest. Use it & be happy! Don't worry about a flipper.
However, your issue with the flipper sounds like either a knock indexing issue or form related issue. I can't say. I haven't seen your set up or you shoot so, I can't say.
Frankly, I don't care about bare shaft tuning. I don't know too many that does it. I paper tune (some people tune a bow to be a little off.) then walk back & group tune. 
For those having tuning issues. Instead of of changing limbs & all kinds of things. I believe in the K.I.S.S Principal.
1-2 inch knock height, something is out tune/time or idler lean, maybe form issue.
http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/EastonDocs/completetuningguide2002.pdf


As for the single cam tiller;
I'm not an engineer or a physicist. But, I look at a single cam this way;
Unlike a dual cam which has 2 cams of the same diameter & are attached to a buss.
The diameter of the cam & the idler wheel are different. Thus, the string angle/geometry is going to be off center from the standard dual cam bow. The idler wheel is a pulley wheel. You can do what you want with the limb, it will only make the pulley wheel turn a little (if that) & may throw the cam out of time.

I can't say I'm right or wrong. But,it works for me.
K.I.S.S.
This thread has been fun!:laugh:
:darkbeer:


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