# Top Archers and their Bow Arm



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

i -

Locking any joint under pressure will have deleterious effects over time.
What the "top archers" makes no never-mind to me. However. in most cases a casual observer can't see the difference between straight and locked.
That's a straight, but not locked bow arm with an outward rotation of the elbow. 

Viper1 out.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

Lock + rotate guarantees elbow pains and injuries in the future. Maybe a top archer for now, but not for very long.

Straight and not locked is the best for your elbow joint in long term.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

Elbow at 9 o'clock will save a few strawberries on the arm, as well a clear a path for the bowstring. I like a strait arm without locking.

The goal is to have repeatable form, and develop good habits.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Jennifer Nichols Hardy.

Could be mistaken, but I think John Magera's is similar.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arcus - 

And because someone can "get away" with something, doesn't imply universal acceptance. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arcus, you are correct. My bowarm and Jenny's were very similar. She being the more "elite" archer of the two of us, but neither of us being world beaters. So perhaps not the very best examples to draw from.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Those pictures look like straight arm?


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Chris1ny said:


> Lock + rotate guarantees elbow pains and injuries in the future. Maybe a top archer for now, but not for very long.
> 
> Straight and not locked is the best for your elbow joint in long term.


Ooops yeah straight and rotate. I do straight arm.


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

For me the focus is on the shoulder(s). My arm position is based on my shoulder position. Low shoulder(s) = leverage. For some of us we cannot have a low front shoulder and a straight arm. A straight front arm for me means high shoulder and less focus on the back. 

-R&B


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand the difference between straight and locked. I do know that ANY flex in the bow arm for a recurve shooter is a recipe for failure.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

midway -

Didn't I send you x-rays of the elbow joint a few years back showing the difference/problem?
Locked means the olecranon process of the radius is jammed against it's fossa on the humerus. 
Forcing those bones together ultimately wears away their protective coverings. 

In a lot of cases the difference may be a matter of degrees.

Viper1 out.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Yup. I think you did Tony. The parsing of words can be extremely confusing. In practical terms, one needs to have the skeletal system taking the weight. And for the sake of newbies looking at the thread, any bow arm flex is to be avoided.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

iArch said:


> I don't know if this is an NTS thing or not, but I noticed some archers slightly bend their arm, some straighten (but not lock) their bow arm, some lock and somehow don't hit themselves, and some lock + rotate.
> The lock + rotate seems to be the most unnatural/difficult position. Do most of the top archers lock and rotate their arms? From video it looks like they do. Anyone have insight on this?


Most (if not all) top archers have their bow arm straight not locked at the time of release- even it could look as locked.... it is straight.

Regards elbow rotation, it is advisable but not "the must" thing to do......I cannot do it as it build high tension in whole arm without anything in hand, let alone 45# recurve.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

not locked, straight, pushed to target.

It looks locked because there is no flex after the shot. But the no flex is from pushing to target after the shot.

The flex you get is the bow arm not pushing fully during and after the shot.

Chris


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> Arcus -
> 
> And because someone can "get away" with something, doesn't imply universal acceptance.


I wasn't recommending it. Just addressing the OP's question: "Do most of the top archers lock and rotate their arms?"


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Would a locked elbow lessen the chance of a collapsing bow arm?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Arcus said:


> Would a locked elbow lessen the chance of a collapsing bow arm?


not that i have found. You can have it licked and not push and the reflex of the shot will bend elbow.


Chris


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arcus -

Not if the collapse originates in the back or shoulder ...

Viper1 out.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Trying to duplicate what the elite do based on video and pictures with out guidence can be a risky proposition.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

chrstphr said:


> not locked, straight, pushed to target.
> 
> It looks locked because there is no flex after the shot. But the no flex is from pushing to target after the shot.
> 
> ...


So even with straight arm, you may see a slight flex in the bow arm as the arrow is released if there is no push?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

You are really over thinking this ...

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The bowarm is a rather individual thing. Everyone's arm reaches a unique level of extension (or hyperextension) and naturally rotates into a certain position. The photos of mine and Jenny's above are our natural bowarm positions. To achieve any other position, she and I would have had to force our bowarms into it, i.e. - NTS. This would put the bow shoulder in a weaker position at first, until the body adapted to the new position and the proper muscles are developed to support it. 

The amount of extension (or hyperextension) is, as a coach, one thing I am constantly teaching around - mostly due to the bowarm elbow getting in the way of the string path (most common with women). In that case, something must be done to avoid string contact. The solutions to the bowarm are as numerous as there are archers. My preference is to put an archer into the most natural position that is comfortable to them, unless that creates string clearance issues. In which case, the bowarm usually needs to be rotated. My daughter and several of my female students have had to learn to do this due to hyperextended elbows, but it is not a deal-breaker. Khatuna is a great example of a world class shooter whose elbow hyperextends at full extension, and she rotates it to achieve string clearance.

I would describe my bowarm position as fully extended, but not "locked" (or at the final limit). But it's darn close. The idea here is to hold the load in the most efficient and comfortable position. We're all built differently and that will look slightly different for each of us.


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## larry tom (Aug 16, 2012)

FWIW, this is what I strive to do. I want my bow arm to be as extended as possible and remain so through the shot sequence. I do tend to push the bow toward the target to get it past the clicker. If I do more than this and it causes a bad shot, or somehow causes pain in the joints, then I know I've done too much in terms of locking the elbow or being too rigid. I simply let my body tell me. Just my 2-cents. LT


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## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> You are really over thinking this ...
> 
> Viper1 out.


Agreed. The best bow arm advice I ever received was from Butch Johnson who said to put your arm out like you're leaning against a doorjamb. It's simple and, based on Butch's track record, effective.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Thanks for the replies guys I think I understand this better now. This was brought up because I didn't know if NTS archers rotated because 'it's what the best do' or because of something like the front shoulder alignment being further in, etc.
For the record, I don't shoot NTS and I use a straight arm (string doesn't hit me on the way down) and recently tried straight + rotate to see what it's about. I notice rotating makes me shake and makes my bow shoulder feel unstable (not used to it). Being uncomfortable doesn't seem to pay off.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iArch said:


> Thanks for the replies guys I think I understand this better now. This was brought up because I didn't know if NTS archers rotated because 'it's what the best do' or because of something like the front shoulder alignment being further in, etc.
> For the record, I don't shoot NTS and I use a straight arm (string doesn't hit me on the way down) and recently tried straight + rotate to see what it's about. I notice rotating makes me shake and makes my bow shoulder feel unstable (not used to it). Being uncomfortable doesn't seem to pay off.


Very similar to the experience I had when I attempted to "learn" the "BEST" (now NTS) method - very unstable and a little painful for me to get into that position. However, keep in mind that full-time professional archers have the luxury of gradually training into things, including "odd" positions. 

For instance, we don't walk on our toes, but professional ballerinas can do it all day long, with grace, and make it look easy. Same is true for certain positions in NTS. 

This is the danger in looking at some "elite" archers and trying to mimic their technique. Unless you both know what it took to get there, and have the same time and commitment, it's really not the best approach for a part-time amateur.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Very similar to the experience I had when I attempted to "learn" the "BEST" (now NTS) method - very unstable and a little painful for me to get into that position. However, keep in mind that full-time professional archers have the luxury of gradually training into things, including "odd" positions.
> 
> For instance, we don't walk on our toes, but professional ballerinas can do it all day long, with grace, and make it look easy. Same is true for certain positions in NTS.
> 
> This is the danger in looking at some "elite" archers and trying to mimic their technique. Unless you both know what it took to get there, and have the same time and commitment, it's really not the best approach for a part-time amateur.


Danger?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

I think we're back on the same page. 

IMHO, the fundamental difference between "BEST/NTS" and what most other people do, is one requires a high level of effort (energy expenditure), while the other would be considered doing as little work as possible, ie allowing it to happen vs. making it happen. In addition to differences in Philosophy, the former doesn't work well with recreational "athletes" and one can be maintained for a life time, the other, not so much. Did I use the word "delusional" in another thread???

Viper1 out.


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## Lostnthewoods (Jan 24, 2013)

Is this what the OP is talking about? Notice how Khatuna's arm looks bent. I see a lot of women and girls with a similar "bend". I think this is a matter of physiology that varies from archer to archer.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I've seen this frequently in women archers too. Looked it up and it looks like cubitus valgus (carrying angle). Women statistically have larger carrying angles then men.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Kshet, I'm glad you found that term. I've wondered for years what it is called but never looked it up.


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Darrel Pace appears to have "cubitus valgus" too. I wonder if it can be a significant "Mechanical Advantage" for Archery?

http://assets.rollingstone.com/asse...035x660-20140203-darrell-x1800-1391469132.jpg

http://www.texasarchery.org/videos/PeteC/Darrell-Pace.gif

Brent


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I would think it places the force below the shoulder, making it want to ride up.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Lostnthewoods said:


> Is this what the OP is talking about? Notice how Khatuna's arm looks bent. I see a lot of women and girls with a similar "bend". I think this is a matter of physiology that varies from archer to archer.



From the picture, one can deduce that it was shot by a camera lens positioned approximately 1 foot forward of the riser's pivot point, and at least 19deg inclination angle shot at about 12 feet away.

From this perspective, the orientation of the arm's bend and its accompanying magnitude is inconclusive.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I've seen her shoot in person and that's what her arm looks like. I wondered how she did that, but it turns out it's just a normal variation in human anatomy. That angle can vary between 3 and 29 degrees from 'normal'.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

http://khatunalorig.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/KhatunaLorig2013BackShot.jpg

Here's a clearer picture. Interestingly, the "hyperextended elbow" seems to have a hidden countermeasure. This is only applicable to archers who are able to rotate the bow arm during full draw to an angle which allow the elbow to point in an elevated angle w.r.t. the horizon by at least 30 deg. In this configuration, the draw force of the bow maintains the hyperextension (instead of the triceps alone), and any relaxation from the tricep actually serves to marginally extend the draw (good for clicking), in a strange arrangement that actually encourages the relaxation of the hyperextension, instead of exacerbating the condition, as opposed to an unrotated bow arm. In the case of the unrotated bow arm, a large proportion of such archers have high bow arm shoulders. Their shoulders frequently rise up close to or above the line of force, which is the straight line joining the pressure point on the grip, and the middle finger of the draw hand. This configuration not only eliminates the use of the draw poundage to indirectly support the weight of the bow, but it also forces the archer to rapidly switch between the bow arm's biceps and triceps in order to stabilise the vertical position of the bow, while sustaining the draw force. You could see it in action when the archer begins to tremble. In an effort to maintain the draw, the archer will instinctively strengthen the triceps. This not only increases the hyperextension, but also marginally shortens the draw.

In summary, rotating of the bow arm may help in string clearance, but to fully exploit the rotation, it must create a configuration that encourages clicking, and relaxation of the triceps, through a more pronounced rotation, and with the appropriate weight setup of the bow.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I think there are two different types of hyper extended elbows. One like khatuna lorig and the next like my daughters. I believe you can work with girls that have double jointed elbows like my girls because we fixed them. I also believe it could have caused damage to their elbows as much as they shoot if I hadn't addressed them early. I wish I had a photo of my oldest daughter showing how bad it looked but I dont. I do however have a photo of my youngest.









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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

If she's shooting compound and using that cam, she could use a bent arm to go around the problems of a hyper extended elbow.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

theminoritydude said:


> If she's shooting compound and using that cam, she could use a bent arm to go around the problems of a hyper extended elbow.


First photo above shows the hyper extended elbow problems. Second photo above shows progress of years of training on how to properly shoot. No extended elbow problems! Certain girl elbows can be fixed is what I'm saying. 

My oldest daughter used to be worse then my daughter in the photos above when it came to hyper extending her elbow. I don't have a photo of her elbow because it was before I had a cell phone. You however can see in this photo she doesn't have a problem of hyper extending her elbow.









Again if I would have just went with the flow I see alot of youth archers go with elbow problems my girls would never have gotten the form they have now. Also as much as they shoot and having soft growing bodies they would have probably done actual damage. 



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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I sometimes wonder too how much of this is a product of age... I see far more hyperextended elbows with young kids than I do adults.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

Probably more than most people think and it carries a known risk. It's the same reason why young children shouldn't be lifting weights. Until early adolescence, the bone ends haven't fully fused and the joint can typically flex/rotate more than they can in adults. Children are typically less sedentary than adults and that factors in too, as ligaments and cartilage stiffen with age - even with appropriate stretching/exercise.

The caveat is that since the growth plates haven't fully fused is kids, a crush effect can occur, hindering full development. This can be made worse by asymmetrical sports activities like this one. Funny, that most parents wouldn't suggest or allow their brats to lift weights, but have no problem letting a 3 year old shoot a bow. 

I'm sure there have been studies both proving and disproving this (there always are), but I'm taking the common sense approach... 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

brats. LOL...  

Your explanation sounds reasonable to me. Common sense would probably say that the same cautions and guidelines that apply to kids and weightlifting should apply to archer as well, since in effect, that's what it is.


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## TheLongbowShoot (Mar 23, 2012)

My arms are strange, so when I shoot my elbow points DOWN, instead of out. So it really depends on the person. There's one guy and his elbow points up..


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