# Dream team archery camp



## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

well this comming from someone who knows all about it, i was invited out my first camp as an invitee and was very surprised that they do treat everybody equal when your out there. It is a great program and a rigourous training schedule but it has improved my shooting emmencly. On the list of pros i might say: shooting with the best archers in the country, getting coached by the best coaches in the country, shooting all day-every day, get to miss a week of school, the facilities at the training center are top noch, the team is like a big family to me--i love everybody on there even if we have disagreements sometimes, and most importantly for a 15 year old guy--the food is AMAZING!! really though it is an amazing camp, and for cons all i can think of is that your first camp, you WILL be alittle sore.

just what i know about a great team, program, and place to have it.

Chris Luman


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

> get to miss a week of school,


That is not a good thing.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jack,

I was involved in the first camps as a coach, but stepped away from the program about two years ago. There are a lot of benefits to being in the program, however, there are pitfalls that some young archers and their parents should be prepared for too.

This is a very hot issue (at least it has been and I expect it will continue to be in the future) so you can expect to see some disagreement.

I think the early camps were a real learning experience for everyone involved, and we experienced some growing pains. Many of the early coaches stepped away from the program for personal or professional reasons, or both. Many of the initial students are no longer with the program. However, a few still are. 

Each individual's situation is unique, and no program can be everything to everyone. I think this is where the issue really is with programs like this. They can do the best they can to accomodate the majority of the archers, but they will never be able to meet everyone's needs, so some will see the experience as a bad one.

I have always said that IF (and that's a big if) an individual is ready and willing to commit 100% to learning coach Lee's method, there really is no substitute for working with him or Guy (or coach Lee's wife as well) at the OTC. They are the experts. It's what they do for a living and they understand the method extremely well. I suspect a few of the long-time RA's also have a comprehensive understanding now too. A few of the active JDT coaches have assured me that they too have a comprehensive understanding of Coach Lee's method. I have no reason to believe they do not. 

But I think the key is that an archer MUST be willing to make a serious committment to learning the method and actually TRAINING, as opposed to just "seeing what they have to offer" and "practicing" - big difference, and that's where I think a lot of folks get lost in the process.

The JDT camps are a great environment for young archers. Exposes them to the OTC, the National coaching staff and other world class athletes. These are all positives in my book. This can help some archers refine their focus, but just as likely, I've seen this exposure help some young archers realize that they are't willing or prepared for the committment. That's not a bad thing, as it helps give them information from which to make serious life decisions. 

John.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

TomB said:


> That is not a good thing.


HAHA! Guess it depends on your perspective. As the mom, I'd have to agree with TomB on this one. :bounce:


----------



## Poor Shooter (Jun 25, 2008)

it also helps the athlete decide if they have that commitment or not. The DT is a big undertaking and a lot of responsibility and dicipline must follow. My son went and it helped him in many ways. I dont know of a way it hurt him. Like Chris says it is a close nit bunch of kids and they can never have enough positive people to be around. My son has school stopping him from continuing the DT, that is a shame it has to be that way that an A student cant miss for this type of activity.

just my 02.

IMO they should let more kids tour DT camps it just to motivate them. (if there was money for it)


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I might add that I've seen too many young archers who think that being accepted into the JDT or the OTC are ends unto themselves. Once they are accepted, the interest and desire begin to wane. 

The end goal has to be elite international competition (world champ's or Oly. games) IMO. The camps and training center are merely a means to that end.

I cannot stress this enough. I'm afraid the JDT and OTC are so "hyped" in the youth crowd that they fail to realize what the end goal really is, and that these are merely one pathway to that goal.

Gotta keep that in perspective at all times.

John.


----------



## JackOfSpeed (Sep 23, 2009)

Another question: Our little shooter wondered if his coach is invited too.

It seems to me if they are really about maximizing improvement of not only the shooter but of our US archery program as a whole that they would welcome this. 

Is that the case?


----------



## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

JackOfSpeed said:


> Another question: Our little shooter wondered if his coach is invited too.
> 
> It seems to me if they are really about maximizing improvement of not only the shooter but of our US archery program as a whole that they would welcome this.
> 
> Is that the case?


Yes. We highly encourage the archers coach and parent(s) attend the camps if possible. That way they can see first hand what we do and why we do it. It also helps them when they are at home training. They don't have to rely upon the archers memory or interpretation. The short coming we have is limited bed space so they would have to stay offsite and drive to the camp each day. 

We only ask that you tell us in advance, if possible, so we will know you are coming. 

Terry Laney


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

TomB said:


> That is not a good thing.


They bring their assignments with them and we have 2 hours of study hall every night


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

JackOfSpeed said:


> Another question: Our little shooter wondered if his coach is invited too.
> 
> It seems to me if they are really about maximizing improvement of not only the shooter but of our US archery program as a whole that they would welcome this.
> 
> Is that the case?


Any certified coach can attend JDT camps as a "Coach Observer". They have to pay the OTC fee of $25.00 per day (OTC fee for room and board) and arrange it through Sheri Rhodes. Those not certified as Community Coach or above must reside off site. Parents who are not Coach Certified may observe training from 7:00 AM until 10:00 PM, but must leave the OTC by 10:00 PM. Come on out.

Coach Observers are also given assignments by Coach Lee and the visit is a leraning experinece, not just a 7 day hang out at the OTC. Every coach, including the JDT Coaches, is being evaluated during the JDT Camp. Ther are no free rides for anyone.

LDF


----------



## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

ok guys i reread my post and it didnt sound the way i intended it to, which probably happends alot.
We do have time to complete school assignments, and i only miss school when i have to for archery. what i meant in my previous post was all the school drama, and such that can interfere with shooting. 
chris


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Xcreekarchery1 said:


> ok guys i reread my post and it didnt sound the way i intended it to, which probably happends alot.
> We do have time to complete school assignments, and i only miss school when i have to for archery. what i meant in my previous post was all the school drama, and such that can interfere with shooting.
> chris


Understand completely and it is good that you have time every night to do your studies. My point is that school is very important to your future and to mortgage your education for a hobby is not logical.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> school is very important to your future and to mortgage your education for a hobby is not logical.


I could not agree more with this statement. 

However, many home-schooled kids have found the JDT camps to be very practical and I think the two programs are a good fit for one another. 

Xcreek, I agree about avoiding the "drama" at school. Far too much of that. Only problem is that the real world is full of "drama" in the workplace, at home and in society as a whole. You gotta learn to deal with it someplace, and it may as well be in the relatively secure confines of public school. At least, that's my take...

It is a shame that more public schools don't accomodate high-performing young athletes in sports like archery - the way they do for other mainstream sports. However, I did have one student who took a full semester away from his public high school to become an RA at the OTC. His school saw the opportunity as a good one, and a way to promote the high school (which it was). They were fairly progressive in the way they dealt with his needs. He chose to leave the RA program and return to his public high school for his senior year, but at least they were willing to work with him. So it can be done. Incidentally, he went on to graduate Valedictorian and received a full scholarship to Southern Illinois University. I'd say his decisions were good ones  He can always return to competitive archery, but at this point in his life (and for most kids his age) he is making the correct choice - banking on his education rather than his archery training...

John.


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I could not agree more with this statement.
> 
> However, many home-schooled kids have found the JDT camps to be very practical and I think the two programs are a good fit for one another.
> 
> ...


John,
Great comments that demonstrate that it doesn't have to be an either or situation. With some give and take on both parts (actually three if you include the family, JDT officials, and the school) it is workable. But, all it takes is intransigence on any of the players part and the dream falls apart. Flexibility and the possibilities of dream fulfillment make wonderful things happen.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If anyone wants the contact information for the young man that worked all this out (staying at the OTC for a semester of high school), just PM me and I can put you in touch with him. Many of you probably already know who he is. Great young man.

John.


----------



## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> It is a shame that more public schools don't accomodate high-performing young athletes in sports like archery - the way they do for other mainstream sports.


I talked to my (2) daughters' Principals about pulling them out of school for _1_Day_ to go to Nationals last year, I just wanted to get it logged as a "excused" absence instead of an regular absence, not a big deal at all. The elementary school was totally cool, the high school... No doing! This is for a girl that is taking 3, yes three, "AP" courses and 2 "Honors" in the 9th grade and maintains a 4.0 GPA I even explained to the both my girls were already the current STATE CHAMPIONS in their respective divisions. he didn’t care. I asked then why is it OK for the Football and Basketball teams to miss several days of school every year to travel to away games? "Well, that's different" .... BULL *****. I finally told the principal, "Well then she's going to be "sick" that day, here's a note from me...." what a pr!ck.


----------



## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

SandSquid said:


> I talked to my (2) daughters' Principals about pulling them out of school for _1_Day_ to go to Nationals last year, I just wanted to get it logged as a "excused" absence instead of an regular absence, not a big deal at all. The elementary school was totally cool, the high school... No doing! This is for a girl that is taking 3, yes three, "AP" courses and 2 "Honors" in the 9th grade and maintains a 4.0 GPA I even explained to the both my girls were already the current STATE CHAMPIONS in their respective divisions. he didn’t care. I asked then why is it OK for the Football and Basketball teams to miss several days of school every year to travel to away games? "Well, that's different" .... BULL *****. I finally told the principal, "Well then she's going to be "sick" that day, here's a note from me...." what a pr!ck.


That sounds a lot like my daughter, except her HS lets her go to camps. Even so, her excused absences do not allow her to take advantage of the perks they give for to good grades due to the absent rules in that same program. I think one advantage she may have had was that Shawn Johnson is from their rival school, so being at the front of the media, her situation may have helped my daughters.


----------



## CT MastersCF (Mar 14, 2009)

*JDT and school response to absence*

Last fall my daughter went to JDT camp twice ... for the September camp and then again for the November camp. Her high school has a max 20-absence policy in order to receive credit for a full year course and a max 10-absence rule for one semester courses. She missed 10 days with the two camps and with a couple of sick days went over the 10-absence limit for a first semester course.

There is an appeal process whereby she had to appear before a panel made up of an administrator, a guidance counselor, and three teachers to explain the absences and request that credit be restored. She had credit restored and the assistant principal wished her well and gave her encouragement to pursue her archery career.

Sandsquid's experience with a small-minded principal (I hope) is rare, but it does happen. In college (40 years ago) a bunch of us on the track team had to go to the Chancellor to get a Physics prof to back off when he threatened to fail us for missing a couple of Saturday labs when we were out of town at meets.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Much to our relief (and surprise -- I guess I was expecting the worst), our son's principal was extremely supportive, and said that any school he missed for tournaments and JDT camps would be considered excused absences. It's a ton of work to make up, but he feels worth it's well worth the extra effort for the opportunity the JDT camps provide.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

sadly some schools treat jock sports favorably while an Olympic sport is ignored. I know for a fact a boy who could not get support from his school and thus turned down JDT. The school in question is an elite school academically but also has put several swimmers on olympic teams and is part of what most people consider the most competitive high school athletic conference in the United States.


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

In Texas if you are not in the top 10% of your class (automatic admission to a state school) you odds of being accepted go down an order of magnitude. Even if you can convince administrators to excuse the absence while you go to JDT camp, you run the risk of loosing ground to your peers and not making the top 10% of your class. Missing 10 days per semester is tantamount to foregoing you chance at going to a top state school here in Texas. About 85 percent of freshmen this year got into the University of Texas under the 10 percent rule. The other 15 percent got in through other means such as legacy or athletic admissions.

My point is we need to find a more robust method of getting kids to these camps without missing so much school. We are limiting the pool by doing camps during school.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

TomB said:


> My point is we need to find a more robust method of getting kids to these camps without missing so much school. We are limiting the pool by doing camps during school.


That would be GREAT! Do you have a suggestion on how to do this? 

The kids don't all have spring break at the same time, and much of the summer is full with tournaments. There was one summer JDT camp this year, but I don't know if there's time for more. Especially since the common overlap of summer vacation is pretty short -- basically the month of July. Plus some parents/coaches have expressed concern about kids changing anything on their form during the tournament season. 

Kids probably all have similar winter breaks, if parents would be willing to have their kids away for Christmas and New Years. A lot of schools are out for several days over Thanksgiving, but that has similar family implications.

Also, they have to schedule the camps when they can get space at the OTC. It seems like they manage the program as well as they can, given all the constraints.

There's some discussion of having JOAD camps at the new facility in Florida -- maybe a good option for those not ready/able to commit to the full JDT program?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> My point is we need to find a more robust method of getting kids to these camps without missing so much school


Tom, last time I checked, the JDT coaching staff was quite proficient at boarding airplanes and traveling. I think it may help if we developed several regional training centers around the country where scheduled camps were held on a regular basis. No reason these kids HAVE to travel to the OTC. There is nothing particularly special about that venue IMO. No more than what a local junior college could offer as far as space to shoot, classrooms and cafeterias. Geez, even a local high school could do that on a weekend. 

Now that I think about it, why on earth could we not use some of the high schools around the country that are involved in NASP? Rotate the JDT camps around the country at these pre-determined locations and make travel easier for those JDT'ers in the local area, as well as promoting the sport by conducting camps at high schools with NASP programs in place. 

Just think - the JDT athletes could actually have spectators show up to their training camps the way that NFL teams do. 

Talk about generating interest for Olympic archery!

John.


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Tom, last time I checked, the JDT coaching staff was quite proficient at boarding airplanes and traveling. I think it may help if we developed several regional training centers around the country where scheduled camps were held on a regular basis. No reason these kids HAVE to travel to the OTC. There is nothing particularly special about that venue IMO. No more than what a local junior college could offer as far as space to shoot, classrooms and cafeterias. Geez, even a local high school could do that on a weekend.
> 
> Now that I think about it, why on earth could we not use some of the high schools around the country that are involved in NASP? Rotate the JDT camps around the country at these pre-determined locations and make travel easier for those JDT'ers in the local area, as well as promoting the sport by conducting camps at high schools with NASP programs in place.
> 
> ...


I wondered when someone besides me would suggest this. We now have several regional centers of excellence around the country (Yankton, Newberry, MSU for example) where these could be hosted. In fact Gene Kacir and I have started one here in Victoria, Texas. You can literally fly in and walk to our venue. Host families could be found for the kids to stay for the camps. Four day weekends could be done to only miss two days of school instead of five.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, I think the OTC is far too exclusive (but then, I'm not big on "exclusiveness"  ) It is a fairly remote location with tight security and a lot of complicated rules to even get in. And we've all heard ad-nauseum the problems with "bed space"... Sure, coaches are encouraged to attend, but it is a FAR stretch from hosting a camp at an open campus where parents, coaches and other archers are encouraged to attend. 

The exact same training could occur, but it would be a very open, inviting environment that would remove some of the "mystery" about what exactly is going on. At first, the JDT'ers would probably feel like fish in a fishbowl, but if their friends and family were watching and supporting them, then I think that would balance things out. Regional training events would remove quite a few barriers to young archers, their families and coaches.

As a parent, I'm encouraged to attend any of my children's athletic or extracurricular practice sessions. And if I had students attending specialized instruction, I darn sure would want to be there. One of my most frustrating experiences as a coach was trying to work with my student after they had been given instruction at the OTC without me present. The student was able to attend, but I was not. Eventually, this led to a breakdown of understanding and I fell behind in the evolution of the instruction. 

There are ways we could make this easier for all the parents and coaches, while growing the interest at the same time.

John.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

I would think that the best solution is a combined approach. 

To have open camps as you suggest (and as I suggested above), and also to have the current JDT camps, which many participants really like. 

This would ensure a wider variety of options that archers/parents/coaches could chose from, and for more levels of archers -- without taking away the option of top-level intense training that exists now.

There is no reason for it to be an either/or scenario, when we could have both!


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> As a parent, I'm encouraged to attend any of my children's athletic or extracurricular practice sessions. And if I had students attending specialized instruction, I darn sure would want to be there. One of my most frustrating experiences as a coach was trying to work with my student after they had been given instruction at the OTC without me present. The student was able to attend, but I was not. Eventually, this led to a breakdown of understanding and I fell behind in the evolution of the instruction.
> 
> There are ways we could make this easier for all the parents and coaches, while growing the interest at the same time.
> 
> John.


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Even though I'm in instructor, I have a different instructor for my son, and I attend his lessons and sessions so that as a parent (important difference here!) I can see what Eric is emphasizing to my child, and then help reinforce it.

Parental involvement is a key indicator of success in anything, whether it be sport or education or anything in a child's development.

-Steve


----------



## Archerycat (Mar 1, 2007)

I know a JOAD from the range I shoot at who has been invited to a camp.
I think it is ridicules to pull a kid out of school to attend a camp. They can't arrange a camp over a holiday or do a short one over a weekend.

Education is the most important thing, It’s not like you can make a living at archery.

I was a competitive swimmer and my parents made the mistake of putting my sport in front of my educations. What a mistake, it really affected me for a long time trying to catch up in my studies.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Archerycat said:


> I know a JOAD from the range I shoot at who has been invited to a camp.
> I think it is ridicules to pull a kid out of school to attend a camp. They can't arrange a camp over a holiday or do a short one over a weekend.
> 
> Education is the most important thing, It’s not like you can make a living at archery.
> ...


As I mentioned in another thread here in this section - you can always go back to archery. Passing up an educational chance is a bad thing to do.

And even the top level archers can't really make a huge living out of it. Unlike other sports, you don't see archers sign 5 to 6 figure salaries with signing bonuses just to enter the minor leagues.

-Steve


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> you can always go back to archery


Not only is this true, but I would maintain that like golfers, archers probably don't reach their prime until their late 20's to mid 30's. 

So certainly, I don't see the point in foregoing an education and the establishment of a career on account of an opportunity to train for archery. Those things should come first IMO. 

Even IF (and that's a huge IF!) an archer trains well at an early age and is able to reach the elite level of competition, what would happen if they had an injury that prevented or affected their ability to shoot? They'd be completely out of luck with no safety net at all. We have a couple of archers in the U.S. in this very situation and I worry about them. One of them just made the decision to go to college at the age of 28. I think she finally got it right, and was thrilled to see her make that investment in her future...

In the end, aside from personal satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment, the only thing really earned by all of this are a few medals, some rather stingy endorsements and the chance to travel internationally. In terms of broadening horizons and gaining perspective, this can be very valuable for the cadet/junior archers on their way to college. But after one reaches the senior ranks, it's a risky proposition at best... At least in this country.

John.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Not only is this true, but I would maintain that like golfers, archers probably don't reach their prime until their late 20's to mid 30's.
> 
> (Snip....)


This is so true - in any sport, not just Archery and Golf. 

BYU has always had a harder hitting and stronger (strength wise) football team due to a lot of their students starting later due to missions. IIRC, their injury rate was a bit lower too. 

I've seen the same in baseball as well - lots of players hit their prime in the mid 20's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Interesting posts!*

I have read the whole thread, and agree with most of the issue about school.
I'll never forget the teacher or professor saying, at the beginning of the school year, "One third of your grade is attendance." If you do not attend class, then you MISS OUT on a ton of information. It is a decision that is not hard to make! School or JDT camp, I'd have to say school every time.
One very well known archer I know said to our JOAD club, "School work first, archery after. You'll not make much money in archery, but with a good degree and a lot of hard work in school you'll go far." This guy knows of what he speaks!

The idea of regional camps is a great one! I like the idea, but in the northern regions we'd have to find indoor facilities as well as outdoor! I think it is the answer we all are looking for, but the issue is finding somewhere! As a person who looks for places to hold indoor tournaments, your National Guard Armories will rent you the facility, you provide everything else.

As much as it is an honor to be asked to JDT, sometimes it creates a we versus them attitude, that if you are not on JDT (in the junior ranks) then you have no chance (even though your rolling ranking is higher than many other archers) to make any of the international teams! That just drives me crazy, because if that statement is true USAA is driving people to them through JOAD then driving them away by saying, thanks for a top notch performance, but since you aren't going to accept a place on JDT then you cannot expect to make any international team. What kind of B.S. is that? Not fair I say!

Stay in school it is better for your mind! Archery has been around for centuries, and will continue to be! You have one shot at school make the best of it, study hard make the grades!

I do wish they would do the "Olympian Camps" during the summer they used to do. That was a great program, where the kids could come and shoot for a week with the coaches at the OTC. They learned a lot and brought back the info to the club and helped everyone. Plus it was an exciting thing to shoot for, a goal, if you will. A kid got a reward for shooting his or her best. For attaining Olympian status in the club. What ever happened to those camps? Why did they get dropped? It would give kids the opportunity to get out to the OTC without the we vs them attitude. All Olympians came out, to the OTC, for they had something in common, met new friends, and had a blast. Who can we suggest bringing that back to? We would have had 4 or 5 kids out there last summer, instead of just the two on JDT. 

Just my $0.02 worth!


----------



## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

What a great thread! Very interesting and thoughtful posts from many with first-hand knowledge of a very, very important topic. Thanks to all.


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

lizard said:


> The idea of regional camps is a great one! I like the idea, but in the northern regions we'd have to find indoor facilities as well as outdoor! I think it is the answer we all are looking for, but the issue is finding somewhere! As a person who looks for places to hold indoor tournaments, your National Guard Armories will rent you the facility, you provide everything else.
> 
> As much as it is an honor to be asked to JDT, sometimes it creates a we versus them attitude, that if you are not on JDT (in the junior ranks) then you have no chance (even though your rolling ranking is higher than many other archers) to make any of the international teams! That just drives me crazy, because if that statement is true USAA is driving people to them through JOAD then driving them away by saying, thanks for a top notch performance, but since you aren't going to accept a place on JDT then you cannot expect to make any international team. What kind of B.S. is that? Not fair I say!


Liz,
You can't get the level or intensity of training at a 4-day regional camp that you do at a 7-day JDT Camp. You would have to have 3 of the 4-day regional camps to get the same number of trainng days an then evryone would be saying that unless you were rich your kid couldn't be on the team.

There are "Team Trials" for international teams. If you don't go to the trials you can't be on the team. Tht's how you get selected, indoor or outdoor. in 2008 only 5 of the 12 recurve archers on the Youth World Team wee from the JDT, in 2009 10 of the 12 were from JDT or were former JDT members and had gone on to be RA's.

Come out to camp and see what we do before you vote to scrap the process. It's not about whether or not a kid will hav to mis school, it's about how much school a kid can miss. Not all the camps can be in the summer.


----------



## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

lizard said:


> if you are not on JDT (in the junior ranks) then you have no chance (even though your rolling ranking is higher than many other archers) to make any of the international teams! That just drives me crazy, because if that statement is true USAA is driving people to them through JOAD then driving them away by saying, thanks for a top notch performance, but since you aren't going to accept a place on JDT then you cannot expect to make any international team. What kind of B.S. is that? Not fair I say!


I do wonder, what in the world are you talking about?

Indoor was qualified in Dubuque, the winners went
JR Worlds were qualified in Carbondale, IL, and the winners went
Venezuela was qualified through 2009 JR USAT, and the top archers went
SR Worlds in Korea were qualified in GA, and the winners went

What is unfair about that? Every single one of them was qualified and attended in a perfectly fair manor. If you want to go to the shoots, then try out for the teams, but don't say the top archers did not go. Remember, you qualify my daughter with that statement as well.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ldfalks said:


> Come out to camp and see what we do before you vote to scrap the process. It's not about whether or not a kid will hav to mis school, it's about how much school a kid can miss. Not all the camps can be in the summer.


And that, my friends, is the major problem.

Every professional athelete who's head is screwed on straight knows that your education is what you fall back upon once you have to retire. Even pros that got recruited out of high school get their college degree while they are in the pro ranks.

As a high school and college athlete who's college career got cut off at the knees (literally) in his freshman year in college, I personally know what it is like to have to fall back on one's education - I *HAD* to continue my education and graduate, or I wouldn't survive in the real world.

As parents, if you make the decision to do that, so be it. Just be prepared for the eventuality that your child can get injured and then if you sacrifice the education, then you may have sacrificed a possible part of your child's future.

-Steve


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> Liz,
> You can't get the level or intensity of training at a 4-day regional camp that you do at a 7-day JDT Camp. You would have to have 3 of the 4-day regional camps to get the same number of trainng days an then evryone would be saying that unless you were rich your kid couldn't be on the team.
> .


Dee,
Is this for real? Are you really saying you would have to have 3 4 day camps (12 days) to be equal to one 7 day camp? Is this your opinion or are you speaking on behalf of the High Performance team? If this is official policy, then we can forget about any regional camps and we will be limited to the constraints of bed space at the OTC forever. Ugh!

Another way of looking at your post is that for the kids that have to miss a camp because of school, there would be no benefit for a 4 day camp in the interim.


----------



## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

TomB said:


> Dee,
> Is this for real? Are you really saying you would have to have 3 4 day camps (12 days) to be equal to one 7 day camp? Is this your opinion or are you speaking on behalf of the High Performance team? If this is official policy, then we can forget about any regional camps and we will be limited to the constraints of bed space at the OTC forever. Ugh!
> 
> Another way of looking at your post is that for the kids that have to miss a camp because of school, there would be no benefit for a 4 day camp in the interim.


Tom, they're running 14 hour training days at the OTC, so yes, the camps are more intense than a local camp could be. Would you go to a camp where you exercise an hour beffore you even get breakfast? They do every day. They also work untill 9:00 at night. It's not your standard camp by any means.....more like the army version of archery.


----------



## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

Scott is correct. The days are long. We start at 7am and end at 9pm. Curfew is at 10pm. The 2 hour study hall is not done in the kids room. They are required to bring their study material to the cafateria overflow room where all the coaches are present to supervise and assist as needed. The last hour of study hall, if the kids have finished the school work they intended to do that evening, consists of more training with the coaches and some of the RA's using stretch bands and light weight bows. We give them an hour of free time before they have to be in their rooms for the rest of the evening. 

A 4 day interim camp would be fine but it definitely isn't equivalent. 

Terry


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Okay - once question for the coaches.

I have a copy of the 2006-2008 High Performance Plan that came with my Level 2 stuff.

Is there a revised criteria for 2009 and beyond?


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

TomB said:


> Dee,
> Is this for real? Are you really saying you would have to have 3 4 day camps (12 days) to be equal to one 7 day camp? Is this your opinion or are you speaking on behalf of the High Performance team? If this is official policy, then we can forget about any regional camps and we will be limited to the constraints of bed space at the OTC forever. Ugh!
> 
> Another way of looking at your post is that for the kids that have to miss a camp because of school, there would be no benefit for a 4 day camp in the interim.


I think he was also factoring in travel time. The first and last day would be partial days due to travel. So a 4-day camp would really be 2 full days, and 2 partial (travel) days. Same with JDT camp -- there are really 5 full days of training. So, in addition to the above (ie, very long intense training days), you would need more 4-day camps to get the same number of training days.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

4-day regional camps would be a great thing to have! Might be a good thing for state JOAD clubs to sponsor. So would week-long summer JOAD camps -- perhaps at the new training center in Florida. 

However, I don't see what all the discussion is about either these options or JDT. Is there a reason there can't be multiple options -- JOAD weekly clubs, JOAD or "olympian" regional camps and summer camps, JDT, resident athletes, etc. 

Seems like that would give the most flexibility and options. Those that want to (and can) commit to taking things to a higher level should always have that opportunity. There's no reason to limit the options for kids to reach their potential -- I'd rather foster their drive and enthusiasm, and help them reach their goals.


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

archerymom2 said:


> 4-day regional camps would be a great thing to have! Might be a good thing for state JOAD clubs to sponsor. So would week-long summer JOAD camps -- perhaps at the new training center in Florida.
> 
> However, I don't see what all the discussion is about either these options or JDT. Is there a reason there can't be multiple options -- JOAD weekly clubs, JOAD or "olympian" regional camps and summer camps, JDT, resident athletes, etc.
> 
> Seems like that would give the most flexibility and options. Those that want to (and can) commit to taking things to a higher level should always have that opportunity. There's no reason to limit the options for kids to reach their potential -- I'd rather foster their drive and enthusiasm, and help them reach their goals.


I am just asking questions and trying to think outside the box. I think I heard right that right now 4 of 5 JDT camps are scheduled at times where the participants are forced to miss up to 20 days of school per year. The constraint seems to be OTC bed space. Does USA Archery just accept that this is the way things are and there are no other possibilities? Until there is some push back from the customers (i.e. the parents) then there will be no change and no exploration of other possibilities. From the comments of some of the coaches and parents here and elsewhere, it seems this is ok with them. Fortunately my kids are through JOAD and college and off on their own professional careers (and off my payroll) so I won't have to make that choice. I have the benefit of hindsight but my kids could not have missed 20 days of school/year and done what they did academically.

So, if it seems to be ok with the parents of the current JDT members and potential members, then I will just butt out of the conversation since I don't have a dog in the fight.


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

TomB said:


> I am just asking questions and trying to think outside the box. I think I heard right that right now 4 of 5 JDT camps are scheduled at times where the participants are forced to miss up to 20 days of school per year. The constraint seems to be OTC bed space. Does USA Archery just accept that this is the way things are and there are no other possibilities? Until there is some push back from the customers (i.e. the parents) then there will be no change and no exploration of other possibilities. From the comments of some of the coaches and parents here and elsewhere, it seems this is ok with them. Fortunately my kids are through JOAD and college and off on their own professional careers (and off my payroll) so I won't have to make that choice. I have the benefit of hindsight but my kids could not have missed 20 days of school/year and done what they did academically.
> 
> So, if it seems to be ok with the parents of the current JDT members and potential members, then I will just butt out of the conversation since I don't have a dog in the fight.


Tom, sorry for the delay, I was watching the Titans give up another one and then had a bunch of work to do to get ready for some coaching tomorrow.

I ws factoring in the travel time. For a 7-day JDT Camp we have 5.5 days of work from 7am to 9pm or later. For a 4-day camp you would have 2.5 days of work if the trave days are included i the camp length. You would need 3 of the 4-day camps to get everything in, if you could work in the travel from housing to venue an back and forth to meals and what-not.

I think your facility is a great one and that it would be a great place for camps, but the length of time we need to accomplish all the goals of a JDT camp is more than 4 days. We had a 5-day JDT Camp about a year and a half ago. From Coaches to Archers it was agreed tha it was too little an there wasn't enough time to do all the work that was needed.

I think ArcheryMom2 is on the right track. I would imagine that many of the participants in the Regional , JOAD, Olympian and other grass-roots camps would be JDT member. Yes it would be worthwhile for a JDT member to have a 4-day camp to attend if he/she missed a 7-day JDT camp. That's a no-brainer.

I disagree withthe cmment that there is nothing special about the OTC. From the dining facility, dorms, athletic fields, Sports Med, AT&T Center and the great Chula Vista weather to the location near a destination airport that is rather inexpensive to fly to, it's a great place to train. Victoria is a great place too and it's almost as windy as the OTC most of th year so everyone will feel at home. 

I think that a regional 4-day camp would work well in Victoria and I would love to help you organize and run one. But, I don't think moving the primary JDT Camps out of the OTC is a viable answer


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Fairness*

FYI I, Lizard am a senior 50+, I could care less about shooting internationally! One of our archers, a cadet, was told this by someone, I don't know who, but if the person who said this to our archer was correct, or just trying to intimidate our archer then shame on them. 



Huntmaster said:


> I do wonder, what in the world are you talking about?
> 
> Indoor was qualified in Dubuque, the winners went
> JR Worlds were qualified in Carbondale, IL, and the winners went
> ...


----------



## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

lizard said:


> FYI I, Lizard am a senior 50+, I could care less about shooting internationally! One of our archers, a cadet, was told this by someone, I don't know who, but if the person who said this to our archer was correct, or just trying to intimidate our archer then shame on them.


Liz, I understand you were speaking on beahlf of another, or for something you felt others were going through.

I hope there is not intimidation going on, but then again, what else should we expect I guess... Just don't let your archer get discouraged.


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Camps*

HA! Dee,
Our JOAD kid placed 2nd at JOAD Nationals and was the ONLY NON JDT kid on the field! He won the cadet division at NTC here in Hamilton!

One of the JDT dads said to me, at JOAD Nationals, "IT IS GREAT TO SEE A NON DREAM TEAM KID MAKE IT THAT FAR INTO THE OR ROUND!" I truly appreciate that parent for saying that to me! The parent, and his son, said the ONLY reason our archer (non JDT) lost is because he wouldn't switch out a bad arrow. It is amazing to me how an archer (JDT) who is competing against someone else (non-JDT) would actually ENCOURAGE his adversary to switch out the arrow! That is true sportsmanship!

Oh, and you MOST CERTAINLY CAN GET THE ATTENTION AND TRAINING YOU CAN AT THE OTC, IF YOU ASK YOUR COACHES, AND IF YOU PRACTICE ENOUGH. If you have people like our CJO kids have, who allow the archers to come here every single day they want to practice. How do you think the McLaughlin twins practice so much? Sure isn't in their basement or at Mr. Cornell's house, though they do practice at each of those locations. They get the distance practice HERE.

My whole point in stating what I did in the beginning, is to say this WE VERSUS THEM MENTALITY has to stop, or we'll drive people (archers and coaches) away from the program all together. 

The U.S.A., up until now, does NOT have the government sponsoring our Olympic athletes. (GOD please don't let them interfere with our Olympic program.) Private donations, of which I give a few thousand dollars a year, to the USOC (I am a Sixth Ring Member), and USAA, are what sustains our athletes. The attitude should be how can we get MORE KIDS to the OTC, so we have more to draw from, not let's pick a few and see how far they go. Seems to me the people on the Olympic Team had been there before, save Brady. 

I don't know, I just worry about all the attitude, sometimes, because there are a number of really great BRONZE, SILVER, and GOLD OLYMPIAN level shooters out there who will never, under the current system, be able to come out to the OTC, because they have not been invited to try out or be on "The Dream Team." Any Olympian level archer was invited to the OLYMPIAN CAMPS! That is where and where, I believe, "Junior Dream Team" got it's start. I think bringing the OLYMPIAN CAMPS back would be an awesome idea! 

About missing school, a "kid" should NOT have to miss school to be on JDT or to train at all. You could have all summer long camps on off years. There has to be a good balance, and although the kids get study time, there is no substitution for CLASSROOM time, and in many cases LAB TIME. It should never be about "how much school a kid can miss," because IMHO they cannot afford to miss ANY school! 

The ending to the first paragraph, yes, you do have to have a lot of money to afford to fly out to the OTC-CV a few times a year! Been out there and to OTC-COS for coaches training, it cost a pretty penny to fly both of us out there, so I don't know where you get off saying someone doesn't have money to be on JDT, au contraire! You have to have some means to be able to PURCHASE airfare, plus, if you are so inclined to do so, your archery gear, unless you have fabulous coaches that are willing to lend you the equipment you need.




ldfalks said:


> Liz,
> You can't get the level or intensity of training at a 4-day regional camp that you do at a 7-day JDT Camp. You would have to have 3 of the 4-day regional camps to get the same number of trainng days an then evryone would be saying that unless you were rich your kid couldn't be on the team.
> 
> There are "Team Trials" for international teams. If you don't go to the trials you can't be on the team. Tht's how you get selected, indoor or outdoor. in 2008 only 5 of the 12 recurve archers on the Youth World Team wee from the JDT, in 2009 10 of the 12 were from JDT or were former JDT members and had gone on to be RA's.
> ...


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Yippee*

Somebody gets it!!! Hooray!!!




archerymom2 said:


> 4-day regional camps would be a great thing to have! Might be a good thing for state joad clubs to sponsor. So would week-long summer joad camps -- perhaps at the new training center in florida.
> 
> However, i don't see what all the discussion is about either these options or jdt. Is there a reason there can't be multiple options -- joad weekly clubs, joad or "olympian" regional camps and summer camps, jdt, resident athletes, etc.
> 
> Seems like that would give the most flexibility and options. Those that want to (and can) commit to taking things to a higher level should always have that opportunity. There's no reason to limit the options for kids to reach their potential -- i'd rather foster their drive and enthusiasm, and help them reach their goals.


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*comment*

I'll just comment that the person, of whom I spoke, has decided to ease off of archery for this year, to pursue another interest he has. I don't know if it is due to the comments that were made to him, but it very well could be, I didn't ask him because I figured he might tell me in due time.



Huntmaster said:


> Liz, I understand you were speaking on beahlf of another, or for something you felt others were going through.
> 
> I hope there is not intimidation going on, but then again, what else should we expect I guess... Just don't let your archer get discouraged.


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

lizard said:


> HA! Dee,
> Our JOAD kid placed 2nd at JOAD Nationals and was the ONLY NON JDT kid on the field! He won the cadet division at NTC here in Hamilton!
> 
> One of the JDT dads said to me, at JOAD Nationals, "IT IS GREAT TO SEE A NON DREAM TEAM KID MAKE IT THAT FAR INTO THE OR ROUND!" I truly appreciate that parent for saying that to me! The parent, and his son, said the ONLY reason our archer (non JDT) lost is because he wouldn't switch out a bad arrow. It is amazing to me how an archer (JDT) who is competing against someone else (non-JDT) would actually ENCOURAGE his adversary to switch out the arrow! That is true sportsmanship!
> ...


After reading your post a few times, I have to admit that you do have an "us vs. them" mentality. I don't know which side you think I'm on, but your kid that placed 2nd has been invited to the JDT twice and turned it down both times. There are 32 kids, 6 Coach Observers, and 8 JDT Coaches coming to the Oct Camp.

In 4 days you cannot get 7 days worth of training in. That's a fact no matter how much you want to deny it.

I never said that someone working hard on their own couldn't succeed. Look at Butch and Vic. I'm not the one being controversial, Liz. You need to read the qualifying proceedures and stop listening to hearsay. We are working on getting more kids to camps, that's why I think it will be great when folks like Tom and others start organizing Regional an Olympian and JOAD camps.

I'm all for it, but not for scrapping our present JDT Program at the OTC and farming camps out to the 4 corners of the country.


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Comment*

Boy, someone else to back me up on the school thing! I M HAPPY!



Beastmaster said:


> And that, my friends, is the major problem.
> 
> Every professional athelete who's head is screwed on straight knows that your education is what you fall back upon once you have to retire. Even pros that got recruited out of high school get their college degree while they are in the pro ranks.
> 
> ...


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*comment*

I was told the HIGH PERFORMANCE PROGRAM is eventually going to be phased out. Has anyone heard this as well?



Beastmaster said:


> Okay - once question for the coaches.
> 
> I have a copy of the 2006-2008 High Performance Plan that came with my Level 2 stuff.
> 
> Is there a revised criteria for 2009 and beyond?


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Beastmaster said:


> And that, my friends, is the major problem.
> 
> Every professional athelete who's head is screwed on straight knows that your education is what you fall back upon once you have to retire. Even pros that got recruited out of high school get their college degree while they are in the pro ranks.
> 
> ...





lizard said:


> Boy, someone else to back me up on the school thing! I M HAPPY!


But see - I've personally experienced this. 

Unlike contact sports, archery has a far lower risk of issues. But, a mere shoulder injury can derail an archer anywhere from a short period of time to permanently.

And, unlike other sports, you do not see professional archers being signed for high 5 figure to 6 or 7 figure incomes along with signing bonuses. Here's a mere starting salary for most professional sports.

NBA Minimum salary - 457k
MLB Minimum salary - 390k
NFL Minimum salary - 285k (which is rather horrid considering the abuse they put their bodies through)
NHL Minimum salary - 450k

What can a professional archer make? I know that in 2006, Jesse Broadwater got $15k plus $2500 from the NFAA plus another 15-16k in contingency just for the World Archery Festival win. 

So, that's roughly a tad bit over 30k in winnings. Gee - that's 9 percent of what a MLB player makes. Even a Minor League baseball player gets a minimum of $65000 a year, and if he gets called up just once, he gets bumped up to a larger salary.

(Note - With just 267 minor league baseball teams in existence, there's over 10,000 people employed as a professional baseball player at the lower levels. If you include MLB, that's an additional 1200 players. So, that's nearly 12,000 people making a minimum of roughly 65k a year playing baseball)

How many of the JDT or RA's can realistically get that level of cash? And compare that to a lot of pro and semi pro archers who are thrilled at winning $100 and some shelf hardware.....

I compare this with Michael Phelps, whom with his druggie situation really chaps my behind. He gets an "endorsement" fee from Speedo for roughly 300k before Bejing. I believe his endorsement contract also gave him 1 mil for winning golds.

You are never going to see that level of endorsement from Mathews, Hoyt, PSE, or Bowtech.

The amount of sacrifice an archer must make in an attempt to get to the top is far more than other athletes. And it's totally unfair for them to make this level of sacrifice when other Olympic sports do not.

In the baseball realm, I have coached kids who have gone on to more advanced travel teams and even to the Junior Olympic level. I do NOT see the same level of sacrifice in education that seems to be found here in archery. In 2009 - the Junior Olympic baseball prospect camps were held in the summer. Yes, summer time, outside of school for most of the children save for those who go to year round school.

This year, USA Baseball held prospect camps in Arizona and North Carolina in the month of June.

And - guess what. The 2009 Junior Olympic Baseball championship playoffs also occurred in June. Wow - novel concept. It's held outside of school time for most kids.

Oh, wait - there's more. USA Softball had their camps...in June/July/August. Oh..that's also outside of most kid's school times too.

USA Swimming's National Select Camp this year is held for 3 days. October 29 to November 1. Gee, your kid won't miss much school in that one. USA Swimming would make your kid miss 3 days. Wow. 

Okay - so someone may say that this isn't the same as a shooting sport. Well, luckily I keep track of the USA Shooting side too. In 2009, Camp Perry's Junior Olympic Pistol championships was held at Camp Perry...in July. The 3 Position Rifle? July. 

Being a school board member (that's another hat that I wear), I abhor the fact that children and their parents are basically forced to choose between school and JDT activities. So far, I don't see that level of educational sacrifice done for other Olympic sports and their Junior Olympic advanced programs...or at least three mentioned plus the 'other' shooting sport that all gets far more exposure than archery does.

Am I alone on this level of surprise? If so, let me know. As a parent, I am very mixed at encouraging my child to pursue JDT as an archery goal for the mere fact that I know he's going to have to make a sacrifice that may hurt him in the future.

If this sport is to grow, consideration HAS to be made in the best interests of the child's long term future, which should encompass archery training as well as ensuring their educational goals are met. You're doing the children a disservice otherwise. 

There is a perceived arrogance at what I'm starting to see as a "Do it this way or else" mentality. Well, is this the reason why people and NGB's aren't paying with their pocketbooks?

I'm not trying to be a pain. As a person who has been a long time shooting sports instructor (recent in the archery realm, but very long in the firearms realm) as well as a coach in other sports, I'm seeing some disconnects that I don't see in other sports, but I do see here. 

-Steve


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> But see - I've personally experienced this.
> 
> Unlike contact sports, archery has a far lower risk of issues. But, a mere shoulder injury can derail an archer anywhere from a short period of time to permanently.
> 
> ...


The JDT contract only requires that an archer make 2 camps a year and not miss 2 consecutive camps. What's the choice? You make one camp in the summer (June) and one some other time. The archer need only miss 5 days of school at the most to enjoy a carreer on te JDT. All ya'll that are talking about missing 20 days of school are mistaken.


----------



## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

As Dee has said, of the 4 camps we have each year, the worse case we require is an archer miss 5 days of school per year (that assumes they are able to attend the summer camp when school is out for most). Any days missed beyond that is a decision that is made between the parent, archer, and school. Missing 20 days is not a requirement set by the JDT staff. We don't put any pressure on the kids saying they must attend the other camps or else. It is simply the number of days that could be missed if an archer were to attend all camps that year. Some do attend them all and some don't. Those that don't usually don't because of school commitments. We have always told the kids that their education comes first. If they can fit JDT in, great, if they can't, that's ok. We leave it up to the parent to decide what they want to do beyond the two camp requirement.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

bownut-tl. said:


> As Dee has said, of the 4 camps we have each year, the worse case we require is an archer miss 5 days of school per year (that assumes they are able to attend the summer camp when school is out for most). Any days missed beyond that is a decision that is made between the parent, archer, and school. Missing 20 days is not a requirement set by the JDT staff. We don't put any pressure on the kids saying they must attend the other camps or else. It is simply the number of days that could be missed if an archer were to attend all camps that year. Some do attend them all and some don't. Those that don't usually don't because of school commitments. We have always told the kids that their education comes first. If they can fit JDT in, great, if they can't, that's ok. We leave it up to the parent to decide what they want to do beyond the two camp requirement.



Sounds reasonable to me! Not sure what all the complaining is about among those who choose not to do it. 

No one said you have to do JDT. It's not required for any of the international tournament teams, and state and local JOAD clubs could certainly run shorter camps to ensure that everyone can participate at the level that works for them.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizard said:


> HA! Dee,
> Our JOAD kid placed 2nd at JOAD Nationals and was the ONLY NON JDT kid on the field!


My son also placed 2nd at JOAD Nationals (they tied, unless a decision has been made regarding tie-breaking between the 2 halves) and didn't get to go to any international events. 

It had nothing to do with whether or not he was on the JDT. It was because he didn't place high enough at the QUALIFYING events. This was decided and announced well-ahead of time. You have to do well at the qualifying event to make the team. He was also disappointed, but knows that that's how the game is played, and better luck next time!


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> The JDT contract only requires that an archer make 2 camps a year and not miss 2 consecutive camps. What's the choice? You make one camp in the summer (June) and one some other time. The archer need only miss 5 days of school at the most to enjoy a carreer on te JDT. All ya'll that are talking about missing 20 days of school are mistaken.


Terry and Dee, thanks for the follow up. I am a little confused (I stay that way.) If they can't miss 2 consecutive camps then they must attend at least three a year (i.e. every other one. Technically they could attend 3 one year and 2 the next year with the every other requirement). Correct? So, if minimum required is three and one is in the summer, the minimum days of school missed is 10 (just for camp. National and international events could very well be on top of the 10). 

I am encouraged that school is still emphasized by at least these two coaches. I was just hopeful that an ethical mean could be found where a kid would not have to choose between academic excellence in school and JDT, which are both respectable goals for a young person. We shouldn't be in a position of a priori deselecting kids who take rigorous college prep courses.

Dee talked about a no-brainer. Well another no-brainer is the expected payout of a good education vs. a chance at Olympic glory.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The point I'm getting is this: why miss school at all to get advanced, higher end training?

Archery's competition for funding dollars (read: other sports) at the development level entails scheduling where kids generally are able to get the advanced training they need without sacrificing days away from school. 

The very man USA Archery gave honorary stuff to the other day was clamoring over the fact that kids need to be in school more. 

We (the archery 'we' as a whole) seem to want a bigger pool of kids to draw from. To do that, we have to compete against other sports. 

We also have a shortage of instructors in some areas. Bob Pian just posted that there's waiting lists in some states. 

Make it attractive for people - kids, parents, and instructors. 

I've said before (and it's even admitted in one presentation document that I have from USA Archery) that Archery is reluctant to change. Well, change is needed. I feel that Coach KSL has gotten our training steps in the right direction, we need to figure a way to incorporate those steps into a path that makes it amenable for more people to be involved with. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

TomB said:


> Terry and Dee, thanks for the follow up. I am a little confused (I stay that way.) If they can't miss 2 consecutive camps then they must attend at least three a year (i.e. every other one. Technically they could attend 3 one year and 2 the next year with the every other requirement). Correct? So, if minimum required is three and one is in the summer, the minimum days of school missed is 10 (just for camp. National and international events could very well be on top of the 10).
> 
> I am encouraged that school is still emphasized by at least these two coaches. I was just hopeful that an ethical mean could be found where a kid would not have to choose between academic excellence in school and JDT, which are both respectable goals for a young person. We shouldn't be in a position of a priori deselecting kids who take rigorous college prep courses.
> 
> Dee talked about a no-brainer. Well another no-brainer is the expected payout of a good education vs. a chance at Olympic glory.


There are 4 camps a year. The Oct 2009 camp is the first camp for next year. If there is a compelling reason to miss 2 camps in a row then each case is evaluated seperatly. None the less, an archer is only required to make 2 camps a year.

Tom, I'm all in favor of starting regional camps. It's something that has been attempted and gotten off to a slow start. Jim White was going to run one a year ago, but it didn't get off the ground. Even with a 4-day camp, to get the same number of training days the kids are going to miss at least as much school as they do now because there is a weekday (travel) on either side of the weekend.

There are no simple answers and camp scheduling isn't easy. BTW, it will cost me, with 3 weeks notice, $444.00 to fly from Nashville to Victoria or $222.00 to fly from Nashville to San Diego for a Friday arrival an a Monday departure. Go figure.


----------



## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

TomB,

The requirement is per year (or fiscal year because of funding), then the clock is reset for the next year. If an archer can't make it because of school or other commitments, we only ask that they notify us, preferably in advance. We are very accommodating and understand that circumstances may come up that requires a waiver.

Looks like Dee got here first.


----------



## Tks1 (Jun 9, 2009)

If shipping our kids accross the country for an intense week of training causes problems with school, and having intense regional mini camps that would allow more kids to attend one in there state and maybe attend one in a another state close to them isn't "the same as the otc" then maybe there needs to be more energy put into developing the coaches that work with the kids on a regular basis.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm not sure I saw anyone say a single shorter regional camps would be equivalent to a longer camp at the OTC. 

But why must we be married to the OTC? Regional camps would give the JDT archers from that area an opportunity to drive, or take much shorter and less expensive flights to attend camp. They could also attend with their parents and coaches and friends. Those not actually training could come for a half-day, see what's going on, meet the other archers and coaches, etc., etc. 

Obviously, there are pros and cons to this idea, and it could be debated ad-nauseum (which I am not interested in doing).

But there is little room for debate in my mind that the regional training camps, if done correctly, could be huge promotional tools for Olympic archery in the U.S.

We could 1) hold regional camps on open campuses where there is already an established archery program (i.e., group of JOAD or 4-H programs, or collection of NASP schools) and further promote the sport, 

OR

2) Hold training camps at a remote, secluded and heavily restricted campus where virtually nobody else can see what is happening, thereby ensuring that no new interest is developed in the sport...

Sounds pretty simple to me, if of course, but only if our goal is to grow Olympic archery in the U.S....

John.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Summer would theoretically be a great time to have more camps. 

However, 1) many coaches and parents don't want kids to change anything on their form during the tournament season; 2) some kids don't get out until the end of June, while others go back as early as the 2nd week of August, so that leaves July; 3) there are many tournaments scheduled during the summer -- most importantly for this discussion are JOAD nationals and NAA nationals, making that common summer break even shorter, and 4) Pres. Obabma has just proposed lengthening the school year!


----------



## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

I guess I have lost something in the discussion. Are we talking about conducting regional camps as a replacement for the current JDT camp or in addition to the JDT camp?

Please don't say just "Yes". 

Terry


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

bownut-tl. said:


> I guess I have lost something in the discussion. Are we talking about conducting regional camps as a replacement for the current JDT camp or in addition to the JDT camp?
> 
> Please don't say just "Yes".
> 
> Terry


Terry,
My question is there anything that can be done to mitigate the loss of school days for the JDT members? Regional camps was one suggestion to answer this whether they be in place of or in addition to. The answer so far from those there seems to be "no, there is no alternative to the OTC experience and the proximate loss of school days." Case closed.


----------



## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

I think both things have been discussed here. Some are suggesting replacing the current JDT with regional camps. But myself and others raised the possibility of having the regional/local camps IN ADDITION to JDT rather than replacing it. Thus giving more options for all levels of commitment.


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

One other thought on the number of camps at the OTC and the number required. This is sort of like the "volunteer" weight training for football in Texas. The coach can't be there but the kids are "encouraged" to voluntarily show up. What kid in his right mind that wants to play will not come? Same thing with the JDT camps. I think that Terry and Dee, et. al. likely do all they can to encourage school and that the kids can opt out of the camp if need be, but there is some pressure that they might miss something if they don't go. So, the implication is that the JDT members have to go to every camp or it might cost them. I know this is not what the High Performance team intends, but it may be the reality. Maybe the answer is you can only come to X number of camps so that you can stay academically on par with your peers. Is there a no pass no play rule or bias? I don't know. Maybe there should be extra perks for dream team kids with a minimum grade point average. Something that tangibly shows academics matter. We have Academic All Americans in the CAP program, how about in the JDT too? Maybe if you are above the set GPA you earn extra trips to the OTC or a regional camp.

Again I am just trying to think outside the box and of the kids long term benefit, of which archery is only a fractional, but significant, part. Academics will play a large and significant role in their future.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I guess I have lost something in the discussion. Are we talking about conducting regional camps as a replacement for the current JDT camp or in addition to the JDT camp?


Terry - Yes!  

Seriously though, I'm not sure what some here are talking about. What I suggested was a simple question of whether regional camps would be productive. My line of thinking was not so much to use the regional camps to cut down on travel time (although it may), but rather to use them to promote the sport among our ever-growing NASP pool of archers. 

Maybe coordinate a regional training camp with a state NASP or JOAD event? That way, the NASP kids have a chance to meet coach Lee and his asst. coaches, see some of the instruction in action, meet the JDT members, etc. Not only would the kids get this chance, but just as importantly, the parents and personal coaches could all attend.

I'm all for taking some of the "voodoo" out of this JDT / OTC training. 

This idea is coming from someone who has been active in archery since the age of about 3 or 4, but never even saw an Olympic recurve in person until the age of 33. I knew they existed, but Olympic recurvers are so darn rare that I'd wager 90+% of all archers out there have never seen one shoot. At least, a skilled Oly. recurve archer...

So, exposure is a good thing. 

John.


----------



## dogbow (Oct 6, 2009)

*camp*

How can one go about getting a chance to tryout for the JDT? We shoot compound right now but my kids are willing to switch to recurve if they make the JDT. Is there an application process or do you have to know somebody?

thanks


----------



## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

dogbow said:


> How can one go about getting a chance to tryout for the JDT? We shoot compound right now but my kids are willing to switch to recurve if they make the JDT. Is there an application process or do you have to know somebody?
> 
> thanks


You can go to www.usaajdt.com/forms and download the JDT Applcation and othr forms that might be of interest.

LD


----------



## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

If you want to help your kid excel in Olympic archery in America, pick up the book, go to the seminars, learn the method, and coach your kid yourself. All of the most successful kids on the JDT are coached by their parents. The parents with kids on the team understand this, as well as the JDT coach and Coach Lee. This is not hard to understand. None of the kids on the team will become Olympic level shooters spending one week every three months at the OTC. This is hard work and sacrifice every day. You can’t have everything. Sometime you have to make some sacrifices, and that might mean you, mom and dad, might have to do the work. Flying Coach Lee around the country to coach your kid doesn’t seem logical. How about sending the coaches to the OTC to learn from Coach Lee, and those coaches can spread the knowledge.

I read in some of the posts that say there is no money in archery and there is no pay off in the end, so why sacrifice school. You are right; you should never sacrifice and education. But how do put a price on your kid’s dreams? How about home schooling or independent study. Many of the current and past JDT members have done just that. How about my son for instance. He has been to Turkey, Mexico, El Salvador, and all over this country in the two years he has been on the JDT, not to mention the people he has met. You don't get that experience sitting a chair in a class room. Yes, we are struggling to balance school and training, but you don’t hear us winning. We do it because our kid has a dream. That’s enough for me. We don’t rely on others to do it for us.

Also, I see all the negative posts about the best method. If it doesn’t work, then how does a 15 year old boy that has only been shooting a recurve for two years come this November shoot adult FITA scores in the 1280's? It's not just talent.


----------



## dogbow (Oct 6, 2009)

*thanks*



gairsz said:


> If you want to help your kid excel in Olympic archery in America, pick up the book, go to the seminars, learn the method, and coach your kid yourself. All of the most successful kids on the JDT are coached by their parents. The parents with kids on the team understand this, as well as the JDT coach and Coach Lee. This is not hard to understand. None of the kids on the team will become Olympic level shooters spending one week every three months at the OTC. This is hard work and sacrifice every day. You can’t have everything. Sometime you have to make some sacrifices, and that might mean you, mom and dad, might have to do the work. Flying Coach Lee around the country to coach your kid doesn’t seem logical. How about sending the coaches to the OTC to learn from Coach Lee, and those coaches can spread the knowledge.
> 
> I read in some of the posts that say there is no money in archery and there is no pay off in the end, so why sacrifice school. You are right; you should never sacrifice and education. But how do put a price on your kid’s dreams? How about home schooling or independent study. Many of the current and past JDT members have done just that. How about my son for instance. He has been to Turkey, Mexico, El Salvador, and all over this country in the two years he has been on the JDT, not to mention the people he has met. You don't get that experience sitting a chair in a class room. Yes, we are struggling to balance school and training, but you don’t hear us winning. We do it because our kid has a dream. That’s enough for me. We don’t rely on others to do it for us.
> 
> Also, I see all the negative posts about the best method. If it doesn’t work, then how does a 15 year old boy that has only been shooting a recurve for two years come this November shoot adult FITA scores in the 1280's? It's not just talent.


 I and other parents in our club mistakenly thought that the archers on the JDT were working with JDT coaches between camps. Since the most successful archers are actually coached by their parents and not by JDT coaches then there must be truth to the process and we’d like to hear more. How long did it take you to self-learn Olympic archery and coaching from the book, seminars, and to learn the method before you started coaching?
We’re looking into home schooling and independent study. Can you tell us about the compromises that we need to consider before jumping in with both feet? Also, do you know which universities the home schooled JDT members are attending?
JB


----------



## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

dogbow said:


> I and other parents in our club mistakenly thought that the archers on the JDT were working with JDT coaches between camps. Since the most successful archers are actually coached by their parents and not by JDT coaches then there must be truth to the process and we’d like to hear more. How long did it take you to self-learn Olympic archery and coaching from the book, seminars, and to learn the method before you started coaching?
> We’re looking into home schooling and independent study. Can you tell us about the compromises that we need to consider before jumping in with both feet? Also, do you know which universities the home schooled JDT members are attending?
> JB


You would be surprised at the number of schools that recruit home schooled kids. Stanford and Harvard are examples. We have home schooled both our kids. My oldest is currently at Northern AZ University. She was accepted at all 8 schools she applied and she left high school (home school) a year early and did not have a diploma. Kiley (JDT member) will get her high school diploma because she attends an Online High School that is accredited in all 50 states. Archery is very important to Kiley and she has made the decision already that she will also attend Online College so she can continue to train as she does now. There are a lot of great programs out there and you don't have to sacrifice a good education to be home schooled. In our research (we were hesitant to do home schooling since we both work full time) we found that most schools have figured out that home schooled kids are better adjusted and more socially advanced and more focused. They don't do the stupid freshman stuff that other kids do when they are out of the house for their first year away from home. I am sure that is not true for all. By the way, I just heard last week that Tim Tebow was home schooled. Now that did surprise me because U of Florida is not one of those schools that is home school friendly, they actually make it very hard to get in if you are home schooled. I am sure being a superstar quarterback helped his case a lot.


----------

