# How Ron won the mids (beware)



## zenarch

Tom,
They don't give you room on the cards for a running total but I always insist on it when scoring. Our group wrote the target score in the hits column and kept a running total in the score column. At every target we made sure the totals agreed before we moved on. The same situation occurred at the last Darrington shoot in the Pro when there was a difference in the cards at the end. I wrote about it in my article and suggested that the NFAA update their cards to include a running score but it wasn't well accepted by the NFAA. It should be mandatory to keep score this way. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone in the future.
Joe B.


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## ROSKO P

Questions:

(1) Why would you care if it looked like you were trying to win?

(2) Why would you score arrows before both scorers are present?

(3) Why did you not keep running totals and check them frequently?

(4) Why did you not confer with the other members of the group on the difference in opinions?

(5) Why did you not bring your conflict to the attention of the people in charge of the shoot?

(6) Why would you give someone a point " if you knew you were right" and then complain about it, when you get beat fair and square in a shootoff?

Now here is my take, if I were Ron. If I were keeping score and a difference in scoring arose, If I honestly knew I shoot a twenty I would stand my ground. If I was not 100% sure I would seek the opinions of the other members of the group. If that did not provide a solution one way or the other, I would have chosen to take a 19 instead of 20, especially since I was keeping score.* But, Always, Always keep a running score*, and check every couple, three targets while they are still fresh. It is much easier to keep two or three scores correct than twenty eight, plus in speeds up the turn in process at the end of the tournament.

Oh, by the way. Your logic of giving a person a point because you didn't think it would matter is completely "out of whack".


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## Daniel Boone

*Score Keeper*



stuf it said:


> Everyone in the archery world should know what happened so this doesn't happen to you.
> Ron and I were keeping score and I would always walk up to the target with the guy calling the arrows.
> Then I would call out the name and he would give me the score. But Ron would always be late getting to the target. Sometimes forgetting the score cards and have to go back to his chair to get them. By this time the score would have called 2 or 3 scores by then. So it would be very easy for Ron to make a mistake. At the end of shooting we were comparing scores and I had a 19 for Ron and he had a 20 for himself on a long target. So Ron complained and complained until I gave him the point witch I didn't think would make a difference. But I didn't know the scores were so close. So after totaling the scores that point made him tied with me for first place. I remember That target because a young man that was shooting with us shot a 13 cause he miss set his sight and when the arrows were being pulled Ron came up and pulled his arrow that was out thinking something was wrong with it. At this point I didn't complain because I gave him the point and it would look like I was just trying to win. So we had a shoot off and he won that. Don't let this happen to you check every score on every target. Ron if you read this and you have any sportsmanship you will make this right! Now Ron is not taking my calls, maybe cause he is felling guilty. Tom


 You keep score and you should have not written it down if your thought it wasnt the right score. Score should have been determined by the group before moving on. I dont think you can blame anyone but yourself. Many have given you good advice. I dont think any score keeper should complaighn after the event is over when the score didnt go his way. Once the cards are signed and turned in. Its over and thats one of the best rules in archery. I certianly would not have come forth here and called someone out when I signed the score cards as a scorekeeper. Great first post as well. Seems you are just upset because you didnt win! Seen this so many times in archery. 
DB


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## Chop1

stuf it said:


> Everyone in the archery world should know what happened so this doesn't happen to you.
> Ron and I were keeping score and I would always walk up to the target with the guy calling the arrows.
> Then I would call out the name and he would give me the score. But Ron would always be late getting to the target. Sometimes forgetting the score cards and have to go back to his chair to get them. By this time the score would have called 2 or 3 scores by then. So it would be very easy for Ron to make a mistake. At the end of shooting we were comparing scores and I had a 19 for Ron and he had a 20 for himself on a long target. So Ron complained and complained until I gave him the point witch I didn't think would make a difference. But I didn't know the scores were so close. So after totaling the scores that point made him tied with me for first place. I remember That target because a young man that was shooting with us shot a 13 cause he miss set his sight and when the arrows were being pulled Ron came up and pulled his arrow that was out thinking something was wrong with it. At this point I didn't complain because I gave him the point and it would look like I was just trying to win. So we had a shoot off and he won that. Don't let this happen to you check every score on every target. Ron if you read this and you have any sportsmanship you will make this right! Now Ron is not taking my calls, maybe cause he is felling guilty. Tom


I thought this was just a buddy raggin on a buddy, is he really serious?:mg:


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## Daniel Boone

*Pretty sad*



Chop1 said:


> I thought this was just a buddy raggin on a buddy, is he really serious?:mg:


I hope your right and Im not seeing it right. Im hoping he replys but my quess he signed up just to rag on this archer. I doubt Ron ever returns any phone calls and I dont blame him. 
DB


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## Chop1

Daniel Boone said:


> I hope your right and Im not seeing it right. Im hoping he replys but my quess he signed up just to rag on this archer. I doubt Ron ever returns any phone calls and I dont blame him.
> DB


If he is serious, thats pretty sad:thumbs_do


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## Unclegus

stuf it said:


> Everyone in the archery world should know what happened so this doesn't happen to you.
> Ron and I were keeping score and I would always walk up to the target with the guy calling the arrows.
> Then I would call out the name and he would give me the score. But Ron would always be late getting to the target. Sometimes forgetting the score cards and have to go back to his chair to get them. By this time the score would have called 2 or 3 scores by then. So it would be very easy for Ron to make a mistake. At the end of shooting we were comparing scores and I had a 19 for Ron and he had a 20 for himself on a long target. So Ron complained and complained until I gave him the point witch I didn't think would make a difference. But I didn't know the scores were so close. So after totaling the scores that point made him tied with me for first place. I remember That target because a young man that was shooting with us shot a 13 cause he miss set his sight and when the arrows were being pulled Ron came up and pulled his arrow that was out thinking something was wrong with it. At this point I didn't complain because I gave him the point and it would look like I was just trying to win. So we had a shoot off and he won that. Don't let this happen to you check every score on every target. Ron if you read this and you have any sportsmanship you will make this right! Now Ron is not taking my calls, maybe cause he is felling guilty. Tom


You should have had this resolved LONG before there was even a chance of a shootoff.... Talk about sportsmanship, take your lumps, learn your lesson, and go on. the sun WILL rise again tomorrow and every dog will have his day....Questioning someone's character on AT is no way to handle this.....ukey::thumbs_do:mg:


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## field14

zenarch said:


> Tom,
> They don't give you room on the cards for a running total but I always insist on it when scoring. Our group wrote the target score in the hits column and kept a running total in the score column. At every target we made sure the totals agreed before we moved on. The same situation occurred at the last Darrington shoot in the Pro when there was a difference in the cards at the end. I wrote about it in my article and suggested that the NFAA update their cards to include a running score but it wasn't well accepted by the NFAA. It should be mandatory to keep score this way. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone in the future.
> Joe B.


Joe,
Concerning the running totals for score....I couldn't agree with you more...IMHO, a running total should be MANDATORY.

However, in my experiences over the years, even if you make your scorecards with room on them for a running total, even if you tell them during announcements to keep a running total, and say it again half-way thru, and say it again 3/4 of the way through...it is amazing at how FEW shooters will actually DO THAT and keep the "running total.'
Then, things are held up while people are scrambling for their calculators, going thru the score cards end by end to "match them up", and STILL MAKING MISTAKES in the totals, only to have to do it over again!

I think that the pro you referred to learned the lesson about RUNNING TOTALS the hard way, since, if I recall, that error made the difference between winning the National title and becoming an also ran.

Try as we may, most shooters/score-keepers simply won't do the running total. They don't realize the time savings and the savings of trouble and arguments that a running total can do for them and their fellow competitors

Even when you explain to them that it is the SHOOTER'S responsibility to make sure his/her score is correct after EVERY END (Target), many still don't pay much attention until it is too late. Still others will pull their arrows before the scores are really tallied and cross-checked, instead of insisting that the scores be compared BEFORE those arrows are touched/pulled. If each SHOOTER takes on this responsibility, then the score-keepers have no choice but to compare their numbers, because nobody is going anywhere until this is accomplished. Very simple indeed.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## TNMAN

*compare scores at every target*

You are both relying upon memory, which is not a sure thing. Hope you get over it soon.


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## xring1

*know the rules*

dosent the rules say if your score dosent match you take the lower of the two!!


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## field14

xring1 said:


> dosent the rules say if your score dosent match you take the lower of the two!!




Worse yet, if you turn the cards in and during the supposed "check" the scores don't match and you've signed them...you are DQ'd.

IMHO, it is your responsibility as the shooter to ask the score keepers after they've written down the scores for every target...if their score cards match or not. Settle it then and there...don't wait until the end and get "messed over".

Besides, if the score keepers are doing a running score tally, once you all have scored the arrows for the last target, it is a simple matter of matching that last target (the others are already done, correct?), putting down the total score (which already matches, correct?), giving you your score cards to sign and turn in, and you all are done. Waiting around for score keepers to get out their calculators, find a mis-match and then go thru target by target in comparing, causes unnecessary delays...and costs shooters points to boot.

I don't know about you, but getting the LOWER score just cuz a score keeper is too lazy to add 'em up as we go isn't a "forgivable action"...but it still comes down to being your own fault for not insisting upon matching those scores before pulling arrows and moving on to the next target. Plain and simple!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Hinkelmonster

WOW.......no he didn't :mg::mg::mg:


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## zenarch

field14 said:


> Joe,
> Concerning the running totals for score....I couldn't agree with you more...IMHO, a running total should be MANDATORY.
> 
> However, in my experiences over the years, even if you make your scorecards with room on them for a running total, even if you tell them during announcements to keep a running total, and say it again half-way thru, and say it again 3/4 of the way through...it is amazing at how FEW shooters will actually DO THAT and keep the "running total.'
> Then, things are held up while people are scrambling for their calculators, going thru the score cards end by end to "match them up", and STILL MAKING MISTAKES in the totals, only to have to do it over again!
> 
> I think that the pro you referred to learned the lesson about RUNNING TOTALS the hard way, since, if I recall, that error made the difference between winning the National title and becoming an also ran.
> 
> Try as we may, most shooters/score-keepers simply won't do the running total. They don't realize the time savings and the savings of trouble and arguments that a running total can do for them and their fellow competitors
> 
> Even when you explain to them that it is the SHOOTER'S responsibility to make sure his/her score is correct after EVERY END (Target), many still don't pay much attention until it is too late. Still others will pull their arrows before the scores are really tallied and cross-checked, instead of insisting that the scores be compared BEFORE those arrows are touched/pulled. If each SHOOTER takes on this responsibility, then the score-keepers have no choice but to compare their numbers, because nobody is going anywhere until this is accomplished. Very simple indeed.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom,
If the score cards were changed to include a box for the running total and it was made mandatory, it could be enforced by not accepting any cards without the running total filled in. I don't think anyone would want to sit down at the end of a round and have to fill in the running scores after the fact. It works for the target archery shoots, so why not for field.
Joe B.


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## field14

zenarch said:


> Tom,
> If the score cards were changed to include a box for the running total and it was made mandatory, it could be enforced by not accepting any cards without the running total filled in. I don't think anyone would want to sit down at the end of a round and have to fill in the running scores after the fact. It works for the target archery shoots, so why not for field.
> Joe B.


Joe,
I fully agree with you on this item. It also works for indoor tournaments; but once again, it isn't "mandatory" so getting everyone to do this running total is like finding hen's teeth.

I would seriously doubt if the NFAA directors would ever pass an agenda item to incorporate this into the rules for scoring, however. Once again, like pulling hen's teeth.

I wonder, however, if, for local shoots non-sanctioned by the NFAA if such a mandatory rule could be enforced without causing chaos and huge volumes of complaints? Many indoor shoots do have a running total as part of the score-card.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## montigre

I'm not a pro, but I totally agree with all that's been said here. I'm one of the few AMs who keeps a running total. If someone wants to know their score after shooting 5 targets, I can give it to them. 

That being said, you would not believe the remarks and jokes I have to endure from the rank and file who choose not to do the same. What I hear most is "we don't keep score like that" why do you have to, but like many have already said, when it comes time to turn in the cards, I just have to tally up the final target's score, sign off on the cards, and it's a done deal--most conflicts have come from others who have made addition errors on their cards when not keeping a running total....:mg:

If you guys and gals can make it mandatory, I'll be right with ya!!:teeth:


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## Lefty18

So, you want to complain because you gave him the point, and he took it?

I'd say that's your fault. 

You could have beaten him in the shootoff as well, but you didn't.


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## brtesite

field14 said:


> Joe,
> I fully agree with you on this item. It also works for indoor tournaments; but once again, it isn't "mandatory" so getting everyone to do this running total is like finding hen's teeth.
> 
> I would seriously doubt if the NFAA directors would ever pass an agenda item to incorporate this into the rules for scoring, however. Once again, like pulling hen's teeth.
> 
> I wonder, however, if, for local shoots non-sanctioned by the NFAA if such a mandatory rule could be enforced without causing chaos and huge volumes of complaints? Many indoor shoots do have a running total as part of the score-card.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom why do you think the NFAA Directors wouldn't pass such a thing . 

Joe, You can write any thing you wish in your article, but unless someone writes up an agenda item, nothing will happen. How many people actually read your article & would go thru the effort of contacting their director or generating an agenda item. Also how many are NFAA members that read US Archer magazine. You should have had your director DAve put it in for you since you were on top of the article.


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## brtesite

Folks, Since I am the councilman of the section & was running the shoot, Tom came to me with the problem.& asked what he should do. I told him the lower score stands. He felt bad about the situation & didn't want to be thought of as screwing Ron. I said if he thought that way he could give him the point & have a shoot off , which he did . Maybe he should have left it alone & & I would have shouldered the load, which I don't mind. Unfortunately for him, he lost.
I also agree about the running total. I always do it & it really doesn't matter if there is a column for it. There is always some place to put it.


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## antlrcolectr

ROSKO P said:


> Questions:
> 
> (2) Why would you score arrows before both scorers are present?


This question above is the only one that matters. I consider this whole problem to be the fault of you and 'the scorer' 
Someone being slow to the target is no excuse to start pulling arrows and not waiting on them. 

I don't care how good or bad I'm shooting, you two would have done that once with me.:thumbs_do


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## blueglide1

antlrcolectr said:


> This question above is the only one that matters. I consider this whole problem to be the fault of you and 'the scorer'
> Someone being slow to the target is no excuse to start pulling arrows and not waiting on them.
> 
> I don't care how good or bad I'm shooting, you two would have done that once with me.:thumbs_do


+1 on this.I have hobbled to the target for a few weeks now.No problem for the guys on the bale to wait.If someone is slower than I,then I wait.No discrepencies,no doubt.All must be present to score regardless!I can see that it bothers you still,but I wouldnt have brought out any identities on an open forum,it was over and done with and you accepted it.You might have done right going to the people in charge but that is where it should have ended.I would really be upset if someone brought me out onto a public forum to put a mark on my name.He only took what you gave him.I wouldnt have taken the point,but I guess lesson learned time to move on.


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## field14

antlrcolectr said:


> This question above is the only one that matters. I consider this whole problem to be the fault of you and 'the scorer'
> Someone being slow to the target is no excuse to start pulling arrows and not waiting on them.
> 
> I don't care how good or bad I'm shooting, you two would have done that once with me.:thumbs_do


It is a 'courtesy' not to pull someone else's arrows without asking them first. Worse yet, is pulling those arrows when the owner hasn't WITNESSED those arrows and has a chance to question any "close ones".
I'm one that insists, no demands, that I pull my own arrows and others do NOT pull them or touch them for me. I have a set thing in my 'routine' in the order in which I pull my arrows and check them, and don't actually trust anyone else to pull my arrows anyways. To many "little things" can happen; intentional or not....been around the block more than once, ha.

About the agenda item for mandatory running totals. I would love to see this "running total" become mandatory, but personally, since it would require monitoring and ENFORCEMENT withou exception, I don't see the NFAA directors even allowing an agenda item of this nature to get to the floor for a vote.
Of course, it MIGHT depend upon how it is worded, and if it is in the exacting and correct "format", etc..etc..etc....

Running total is so EASY and any quibbling is settled on the spot and not hours later at a picnic table while people are in a hurry to get their cards turned in and/or go on their way. It is so much easier to make a mistake in a rush, and to try to remember "after the fact."

It would just give the "nay-sayers" one more excuse to bad-mouth the NFAA for having what they see as a "stupid rule" that would involve mandatory running totals be done or the score card is not accepted as complete. It would end up being pencil whipped anyways.....after the fact.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## I BOW 2

Once again the "AT" minions  are getting hung up on trivial things. You could add a running total for each arrow shot and it won't make a hill of beans if the two score keepers do not confer after evry target is scored before the arrows are pulled. How many times have we said what did you say when we are standing right next to each other. Sour grapes, lesseon learned lets move along people we got arrows to shoot here!!!!  Ken


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## field14

I BOW 2 said:


> Once again the "AT" minions  are getting hung up on trivial things. You could add a running total for each arrow shot and it won't make a hill of beans if the two score keepers do not confer after evry target is scored before the arrows are pulled. How many times have we said what did you say when we are standing right next to each other. Sour grapes, lesseon learned lets move along people we got arrows to shoot here!!!!  Ken


Ken,
It really starts with the SHOOTER insisting that the scores be correct before touching or pulling the arrows. It is simple...as a shooter, you don't leave the target until the scorekeepers have matched YOUR score to insure it is correct and they are in agreement. Afterall, it is YOUR score, and if they don't like having to match and make sure it is correct, then tough on them.

Matching scores 'from memory', after the fact, is all too common and getting worse, IMHO. Sometimes some score keepers give the point(s) in doubt to the shooter, while still others go by the rule and take the LOWER score....

Do YOU want to have that happen to you? Cuz, it happening to you could well be right around the corner. We are down to talking even "X's" being the difference between winning and being an "also ran"....especially during some of the indoor shoots where the "X" counts as a "6" and the baby-X counts as an "11"...thus ONE "X" makes all the difference in the world; win, lose, or draw, in the money or out of the money. It is NOT trivial, IMHO,at least not anymore as the "pack" scores tighten up more closely at the tournaments.

Thus, the individual SHOOTER needs to stand firm ground and ask that the scores agree and the "running total" agrees at each and every target.

Almost no need for a "RULE" to make it mandatory, since in reality that responsibility does fall on each individual shooter, doesn't it?

Those are other reasons why I feel that the NFAA directors wouldn't act on an agenda item to make it "mandatory" to keep a running total.

I'll betcha that the PRO shooter in question (and we do know of whom we are speaking, I think??) from the beginning of this thread will never ever again leave a target without making sure that those scores are tallied, including running totals, and match up.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## I BOW 2

Well you and I know that horse has been around the track a few times before!


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## field14

I BOW 2 said:


> Well you and I know that horse has been around the track a few times before!



Yes, we sure do, Ken. If only people would stop to realize what they are doing to themselves when they don't insist upon the scores being properly recorded, checked, and matched ON THE SPOT! I don't think that many of the shooters are aware of the RULE that says the LOWER of the scores is used when there is a 'mis-match' of the score cards. Of course, then we have the discrepancies of some groups giving the point to the shooter, and the other group(s) following the rule and giving said shooter the LOWER of the scores.
In addition you have those griping like crazy when the score-keepers are off on a picnic table scrambling to add up scores that SHOULD already be added up and DONE WITH so the shooters can sign both cards and get them turned in! Holding up the entire show, when it should be resolved before they ever get back to said "picnic table."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## I BOW 2

You know I don't have a problem with tally the scores at the end of round. You're primary responsibity as a "shooter" is to pay attention to your shooting. Too many times you can get distracted by fast moving round due to keeping score.


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## ROSKO P

I BOW 2 said:


> You know I don't have a problem with tally the scores at the end of round. You're primary responsibity as a "shooter" is to pay attention to your shooting. Too many times you can get distracted by fast moving round due to keeping score.


In a national tournament, in this case a Sectional. Your primary responsibility is to no the rules, and abide by these rules, before shooting. If you can not do that *and* shoot your bow, stay in the back yard!!!!


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## Hinkelmonster

Not sure what this is really all about. 

Tom and Ron are friends, hell they team up every year in Redding. 

THey have both been PRO's since I was in diapers and shoot almost everyweekend somewhere TOGETHER!!!!!

THis shoot was over over 2 weeks prior to this threads beginning. Not sure exactly why Tom felt the need to air this here after such a long time and it his FIRST EVER POST??????? Now that's a way to come outta the blocks.

For all you holy than thow "archers" that say never touch/pull arrows and always running score this and confirm and check and re-check that......

Get out on the course and let me know how that works out for you. Or are you guys the reason that it now takes over 5-6 hours to shoot a field round. 

Get it right, the first time and move on, there is NO room for errors, Jesse and Cuz learned that the hard way in Darrington. Mistakes happen but that doesn't mean we need an act of Congress to score arrows!!!!!


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## CHPro

> Mistakes happen but that doesn't mean we need an act of Congress to score arrows!!!!!


Ditto this. If the powers to be decide to add a column for running totals then so be it. We already keep running totals for several indoor rounds, Redding, and pretty much every FITA I've ever shot. If people feel they need this on the NFAA field scorecards also, so be it. You do not need another stupid agenda item for something that needs only be added to the scorecard. Tournament Director informs archers they must keep running totals before the shooting starts and scorecards are not accepted until all boxes are filled in.....end of story without having to waste a bunch of time putting it to a vote. 

>>------>


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## blueglide1

Hinkelmonster said:


> Not sure what this is really all about.
> 
> Tom and Ron are friends, hell they team up every year in Redding.
> 
> THey have both been PRO's since I was in diapers and shoot almost everyweekend somewhere TOGETHER!!!!!
> 
> THis shoot was over over 2 weeks prior to this threads beginning. Not sure exactly why Tom felt the need to air this here after such a long time and it his FIRST EVER POST??????? Now that's a way to come outta the blocks.
> 
> For all you holy than thow "archers" that say never touch/pull arrows and always running score this and confirm and check and re-check that......
> 
> Get out on the course and let me know how that works out for you. Or are you guys the reason that it now takes over 5-6 hours to shoot a field round.
> 
> Get it right, the first time and move on, there is NO room for errors, Jesse and Cuz learned that the hard way in Darrington. Mistakes happen but that doesn't mean we need an act of Congress to score arrows!!!!!


Hinky,Let me know how that goes for you when you get up to the target and your balemate hands you your arrows and say this is what you got,LOL,I did this at GL Sec,but thats because I was injured and I trusted my balemates.I agree with the vote issue but proper bale scoring was at the very least handled poorly.I saw no reason for this OP to put this out for the masses.I agree that they both have done this for a very long time and should have moved on.Nuff said.


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## field14

Hinkelmonster said:


> Not sure what this is really all about.
> 
> Tom and Ron are friends, hell they team up every year in Redding.
> 
> THey have both been PRO's since I was in diapers and shoot almost everyweekend somewhere TOGETHER!!!!!
> 
> THis shoot was over over 2 weeks prior to this threads beginning. Not sure exactly why Tom felt the need to air this here after such a long time and it his FIRST EVER POST??????? Now that's a way to come outta the blocks.
> 
> For all you holy than thow "archers" that say never touch/pull arrows and always running score this and confirm and check and re-check that......
> 
> Get out on the course and let me know how that works out for you. Or are you guys the reason that it now takes over 5-6 hours to shoot a field round.
> 
> Get it right, the first time and move on, there is NO room for errors, Jesse and Cuz learned that the hard way in Darrington. Mistakes happen but that doesn't mean we need an act of Congress to score arrows!!!!!


Actually, Hinkey,
I've been doing this "field archery stuff" since 1968. Back in those days, 56 targets per DAY were the way local shoots were run. We'd start by 8AM and be off the courses by 3:30 or 4:00PM....with all 56 targets shot and scored.
In the early days of the "changeover" we still managed, nearly all the time to shoot 28 targets and have the scorecards turned in in LESS than 4 1/2 hours. Then things started coming unraveled and the time taken to complete 28 targets started getting longer and longer. I well recall that at several sectional shoots, and two nationals that I attened in the late 1980's/early 1990's...the RULE was announced by the tournament director that, from the sounding of the horn/shotgun...we had 5 hours to shoot our round for the day and have the score cards TURNED IN at the headquarters...5 hours total time. Know what? We easily made it, too...and the scores weren't hurt one bit.
Seems of late, however, that the "who cares about how long it takes" is echoed by loads of people...and on the other side of their mouth you hear from them, "I don't LIKE being out on the course all day." Talk about hypocrisy.
Amazing today in that 5 to 6 hours is "acceptable"...and SOME are complaining about it...but have no problems with using binoculars several times to "scope the target", then use the clinometer, then hit the Palm Pilot, then set the site, then look to double check it, then shoot...a "4" and proceed to double check things over again, and still have "problems" with missing.
The TIME taken to confirm the scores are correctly recorded is miniscule compared to the extra time SOME people are taking to pick up all their crap they haul with them, ogle the targets over and over, and then use electronic toys in an attempt to buy points.

However...it comes down to the fact that on one side...people "don't LIKE being out on the course all day in the heat and humidity", but many of those same people complain that..."I don't want to rush this, and besides, I like kibitzing with my friends." Which is it going to be? Get the round accomplished in under 5 hours....or spend longer than that out on the course kibitzing and ogling targets to the n'th degree?

And Yes, HINKY...it positively is GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME...IMHO, there is NO EXCUSE for a shooter to allow his/her scores to be mis-recorded on those scorecards and NOT be in agreement before the group moves on to the next target!
These people saying that it will delay things, and that "they have arrows to shoot"....will be talking out of the other side of their mouths WHEN...they have one or more targets on one of the two score cards that don't agree with each other...and they LOSE the points because of it and the inability to "reconstruct" what REALLY IS THE CASE.

I'll guarantee you that those same folks that quibble that getting those score cards right the first time...out on the course... will pee and moan and stamp their feet...and try to "bend" the rule about the LOWER of those two scores being what they get...when that discrepancy DOES occur...and THEY are the victim of said loss of points!

Just ask those that have LOST tournaments because of a snafu on a score card that SHOULD have been resolved AT THE TARGET and AT THE TIME.
It happened to ME once, and only once...it was fairly early on after the target change in 1976. It hasn't happened again, and I'll guarantee you it WILL NOT happen again to me in any tournament, indoors or outdoors. 

Yeah, I know "thinking about your score" some say is akin to lowering your score...but, you shoot ONE ARROW at a time. The question to ask isn't "what is my score"...it is, "Do you guys agree on BOTH score cards with regard to point totals?"

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Hinkelmonster

blueglide1 said:


> Hinky,Let me know how that goes for you when you get up to the target and your balemate hands you your arrows and say this is what you got,LOL,I did this at GL Sec,but thats because I was injured and I trusted my balemates.I agree with the vote issue but proper bale scoring was at the very least handled poorly.I saw no reason for this OP to put this out for the masses.I agree that they both have done this for a very long time and should have moved on.Nuff said.


This is apples and oranges. What you're speaking of is "CHEATING" what we're talking about is a mistake and how to avoid them. 

If that'd happen, Hinky would be throwin' down!!!!!  Unless they gave me a 20, maybe a 19, hell I'd even take an 18 somedays 

But 9x outta 10 we all know what everyone has prior to leaving the stakes because we are spotting for each other and calling arrows prior to proceeding to the targets, of course there are those close one that you can't call or pass thrus and what have you but this is not rocket science, hell it's archery and 3rd grade addition!


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## Hinkelmonster

field14 said:


> Actually, Hinkey,
> I've been doing this "field archery stuff" since 1968. Back in those days, 56 targets per DAY were the way local shoots were run. We'd start by 8AM and be off the courses by 3:30 or 4:00PM....with all 56 targets shot and scored.
> In the early days of the "changeover" we still managed, nearly all the time to shoot 28 targets and have the scorecards turned in in LESS than 4 1/2 hours. Then things started coming unraveled and the time taken to complete 28 targets started getting longer and longer. I well recall that at several sectional shoots, and two nationals that I attened in the late 1980's/early 1990's...the RULE was announced by the tournament director that, from the sounding of the horn/shotgun...we had 5 hours to shoot our round for the day and have the score cards TURNED IN at the headquarters...5 hours total time. Know what? We easily made it, too...and the scores weren't hurt one bit.
> Seems of late, however, that the "who cares about how long it takes" is echoed by loads of people...and on the other side of their mouth you hear from them, "I don't LIKE being out on the course all day." Talk about hypocrisy.
> Amazing today in that 5 to 6 hours is "acceptable"...and SOME are complaining about it...but have no problems with using binoculars several times to "scope the target", then use the clinometer, then hit the Palm Pilot, then set the site, then look to double check it, then shoot...a "4" and proceed to double check things over again, and still have "problems" with missing.
> The TIME taken to confirm the scores are correctly recorded is miniscule compared to the extra time SOME people are taking to pick up all their crap they haul with them, ogle the targets over and over, and then use electronic toys in an attempt to buy points.
> 
> However...it comes down to the fact that on one side...people "don't LIKE being out on the course all day in the heat and humidity", but many of those same people complain that..."I don't want to rush this, and besides, I like kibitzing with my friends." Which is it going to be? Get the round accomplished in under 5 hours....or spend longer than that out on the course kibitzing and ogling targets to the n'th degree?
> 
> And Yes, HINKY...it positively is GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME...IMHO, there is NO EXCUSE for a shooter to allow his/her scores to be mis-recorded on those scorecards and NOT be in agreement before the group moves on to the next target!
> These people saying that it will delay things, and that "they have arrows to shoot"....will be talking out of the other side of their mouths WHEN...they have one or more targets on one of the two score cards that don't agree with each other...and they LOSE the points because of it and the inability to "reconstruct" what REALLY IS THE CASE.
> 
> I'll guarantee you that those same folks that quibble that getting those score cards right the first time...out on the course... will pee and moan and stamp their feet...and try to "bend" the rule about the LOWER of those two scores being what they get...when that discrepancy DOES occur...and THEY are the victim of said loss of points!
> 
> Just ask those that have LOST tournaments because of a snafu on a score card that SHOULD have been resolved AT THE TARGET and AT THE TIME.
> It happened to ME once, and only once...it was fairly early on after the target change in 1976. It hasn't happened again, and I'll guarantee you it WILL NOT happen again to me in any tournament, indoors or outdoors.
> 
> Yeah, I know "thinking about your score" some say is akin to lowering your score...but, you shoot ONE ARROW at a time. The question to ask isn't "what is my score"...it is, "Do you guys agree on BOTH score cards with regard to point totals?"
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom...I shot with the top AMFS shoot in 2007 and 2008 for 5 days. We all had inclinometers and most had rangefinders, hell a few (including me had AA Palm) and we ranged/checked/calculated/spotted/checked/shot/spotted/checked/calculated on almost every target and were often one of the first groups off the course. 

Hell in Yankton, there were 2 days where we were back at the hotel 3 HOURS, YES 3 HOURS, before some groups got off the course.

It doens't matter what style you shoot, what gizmos and gadgets you use, or what scores you post......it's how you do it. 

Hell look at Braden G shooting indoors he looks through his binos after every shot and will shoot 3 and spot 3 before I get a 3rd arrow loaded and I consider myself on the quicker side.


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## zenarch

CHPro said:


> Ditto this. If the powers to be decide to add a column for running totals then so be it. We already keep running totals for several indoor rounds, Redding, and pretty much every FITA I've ever shot. If people feel they need this on the NFAA field scorecards also, so be it. You do not need another stupid agenda item for something that needs only be added to the scorecard. Tournament Director informs archers they must keep running totals before the shooting starts and scorecards are not accepted until all boxes are filled in.....end of story without having to waste a bunch of time putting it to a vote.
> 
> >>------>



Jeff,
That was my opinion when I wrote the article after Darrington, making some suggestions to the NFAA. They asked me to write something but they didn't accept the article or the suggestions I made based on the scoring problems at the shoot. Too critical of the NFAA they said. They wanted color on the shoot, not criticism so we still have the old score cards we've used from day one and still have the same controversy. The system of the directors from 50 states having to vote in every change suggested just is too cumbersome. Take a look at how the ASA works. When a change is needed it's done by the top guy with the consultation of the board.
I'm attaching the article I wrote for the NFAA magazine after Darrington, if anyone is interested in reading it.
Joe B.


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## blueglide1

Hinkelmonster said:


> This is apples and oranges. What you're speaking of is "CHEATING" what we're talking about is a mistake and how to avoid them.
> 
> If that'd happen, Hinky would be throwin' down!!!!!  Unless they gave me a 20, maybe a 19, hell I'd even take an 18 somedays
> 
> But 9x outta 10 we all know what everyone has prior to leaving the stakes because we are spotting for each other and calling arrows prior to proceeding to the targets, of course there are those close one that you can't call or pass thrus and what have you but this is not rocket science, hell it's archery and 3rd grade addition!


Hinkleman,I see what your meaning was now.Thats the problem with typin and not talkin.LOL Anyhow I do believe the post should have never been on here to begin with.Should have taken the lumps and moved on.They both should have known better than to let it get as far as it did.I think we both can agree on that.They have been at it along time. Later pal.


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## Deer Karma

*please read before you type out what ever runs through your mind.*

*



Folks, Since I am the councilman of the section & was running the shoot, Tom came to me with the problem.& asked what he should do. I told him the lower score stands. He felt bad about the situation & didn't want to be thought of as screwing Ron. I said if he thought that way he could give him the point & have a shoot off , which he did . Maybe he should have left it alone & & I would have shouldered the load, which I don't mind. Unfortunately for him, he lost.
I also agree about the running total. I always do it & it really doesn't matter if there is a column for it. There is always some place to put it.

Click to expand...

*

FYI: spoke to Tom today and he is having issues with his computer and would love to respond to all your remarks.

He informed me that this was not a bashing thread , he just wanted to inform what happened and hopes this doesn't happen to you.

Hopefully sooner than later his 2 post will help clarify this thread


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## blueglide1

The Senior Pro class has THE best guys in it.Tom and Ron are IMHO two of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet.They are great competitors and gentlmen on the course and in public.This thread should have never included any names and would have been better off without them.My only point was it should have been in a hypothetical situation,informing us the way that it could go.The way it was worded put peoples minds wondering what happened, instead of what could happen.Thats all.If you talk to Tom tell him no one has any ill feelings about it,and people just get carried away with stuff.It is a good subject that serves to remind people about scoring situations,and being brought to ones attention now and then does helps in the long run.


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## Lonestar63

zenarch said:


> Tom,
> If the score cards were changed to include a box for the running total and it was made mandatory, it could be enforced by not accepting any cards without the running total filled in. I don't think anyone would want to sit down at the end of a round and have to fill in the running scores after the fact. It works for the target archery shoots, so why not for field.
> Joe B.


Running totals are MANDATORY at our State level shoots in ASA, which makes it very easy to keep track and eliminate any mistakes.

If I'm keeping score i like to check with the other scorekeeper at least every 5 targets to make sure no mistakes were made, and if they were, it will still be fresh, not trying to recall something 4 hours later......


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## TRB

*THINK!! or you will regret it...*

Pay attention! Know the rules! Trust no one, and don't belive , instead make sure you KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT!!! Doing this will go a long way to avoid problems in archery and the rest of your life!


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## field14

TRB said:


> Pay attention! Know the rules! Trust no one, and don't belive , instead make sure you KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT!!! Doing this will go a long way to avoid problems in archery and the rest of your life!


I agree.
For those of you all wound up with this "don't "think" about the SCORE, just shoot one arrow at a time" stuff....The question you ask is simple...you do NOT ask for your SCORE...you simply ask the scorekeepers..."Do you BOTH agree on what the running score IS right now?" You don't have to ask FOR your score, just that they both agree with the current running total!

It isn't WHAT you ask with your question as HOW you ask the question and its "contents".

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SuperX

The main reasons I see field rounds taking forever are 1) putting the slowest groups in front of the main field... if you have a bunch of slow shooters in a group, put them on target 1 and start the last group on 24 or lower if you can and archers, please let faster shooters shoot through! and 2) people won't shoot on their side of the stake if they feel the other side is "better footing". I think the reason we switch sides and top/bottom at 1 and 15 is because it all evens out in the end. If nobody will shoot their side of the stake because it isn't smooth, then why the heck should we even bother switching? 

I don't see the gadgets being a big slow down like Hinky said... if you know how to use them it is not that big a deal.


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## Hinkelmonster

The whole running total and knowing the score thing is BS.....except indoors and FITA, maybe 3-D you can't determine how many your down woithout thinking about it anyway.

I mean if you were at the LAS Shoot and heard the score keeper say your score is 219 you mean to tell me you would know instantly how many point you were down 

or 

if at Outdoor Nats you heard them say your score was 214 you would know?

Not at all!!!!


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## field14

Hinkelmonster said:


> The whole running total and knowing the score thing is BS.....except indoors and FITA, maybe 3-D you can't determine how many your down woithout thinking about it anyway.
> 
> I mean if you were at the LAS Shoot and heard the score keeper say your score is 219 you mean to tell me you would know instantly how many point you were down
> 
> or
> 
> if at Outdoor Nats you heard them say your score was 214 you would know?
> 
> Not at all!!!!


Hinkey,
You are missing the POINT...it isn't about how many you are "down" or WHAT the score is...it is whether those two score cards totals AGREE with each other or not. Settle the issue at the target, and ON THE COURSE...rather than try to "reconstruct" it possibly 3-4 hours later when suddenly they discover that on targets 3, 11, and 13 they don't agree with one another!

I, for one, don't necessarily want to know my SCORE...but I DO want to know that those two scorecards agree with one another; plain and simple...and it comes down to MY responsibility to simply ask, "Do you two agree target for target and at the current running total?" If not, then get it corrected NOW. You don't have to ask "WHAT IS MY SCORE?" You simply make sure you ask them if both score cards are in full agreement with one another (if you are so wrapped up in keeping your score a secret from yourself?" Personally, I've never seen a top echelon shooter that didn't know what his/her score IS at any time. Of course they miss so infrequently that they don't have to count very hard either, hahahaha. Just remember what happened at the NATIONAL OUTDOOR a few short years ago...due to a score card discrepancy...that could have been totally avoided if the "offended party" had been CHECKING to make SURE those score cards agreed with one another all along.

The rule is simple....YOU LOSE and get the LOWER score if those two score cards don't agree with one another. Take YOUR OWN risk, but I for one, won't run that risk.

WHEN it happens to you or those that say it "doesn't matter"....you will all be playing to the beat of a different drum. NATIONAL champions or not....it can happen very easily and cost you dearly.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## mrb1982

I'm no pro, but when I score for indoor, I total after every game. Might take me a little longer during the tournament, but I'm putting my equipment away and have everything handed in while everyone is totaling when we are done. Just makes sense, easy to keep track of.


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## Hinkelmonster

I know that Tom, but people say they don't wna tthe score keepers confirming the total out loud cuz then they know their score. My point was that if they here a number anounced they more than likely will not be able to quickly without thinking about it figure ouyt there score. 

That's all


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## field14

Hinkelmonster said:


> I know that Tom, but people say they don't wna tthe score keepers confirming the total out loud cuz then they know their score. My point was that if they here a number anounced they more than likely will not be able to quickly without thinking about it figure ouyt there score.
> 
> That's all


Gotcha, Hinky.
Those same ones you are speaking of will pee and moan and utter things "unrepeatable" WHEN they lose a point or two (or more) WHEN those two score cards don't agree at the end...and the score-keepers try to reconstruct which is what. The LOWER of the two scores is the "rule."
The other thing is that there is no "figuring out" of your score required....if the cards agree, it is over and what is....is. If they disagree, settling the issue NOW sure saves problems later on at the 'picnic table.', hahahaha.

If hearing your score throws you off...then you are NOT shooting ONE ARROW AT A TIME anyways, so you probably won't finish at or near the top of the heap. You and I know that the only arrow you can control at the moment is the one in the bow...but so many others haven't learned that yet...or if they have...don't PRACTICE it...hahahaha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Bobmuley

Hinkelmonster said:


> I know that Tom, but people say they don't wna tthe score keepers confirming the total out loud cuz then they know their score. My point was that if they here a number anounced they more than likely will not be able to quickly without thinking about it figure ouyt there score.
> 
> That's all


Redding is about the worst score-keeping place I can think of and as a two-time scorer I insisted on running totals. If someone in the group didn't like it...too bad.  

If they can remember that the total after 14 targets is a a 308 and they're at a 304 they probably already know how many they're down before the score keepers announce it. If they're at 278 out of 308 then they lost track of how many they were down many targets back. Again....too bad.


The most important thing is to get the correct score for all in the group. Much more important than any one individual's "zone".


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## r302

*Tom and Ron*

Hi Tom and Ron,
You two gentlemen are just like two of my best friends in archery.

This sort of thing goes on between these two guys at every shoot they go to together. They travel together to get to the shoot. When they shoot together they disagree on just about every close arrow to the point they call archers from other groups to make the call. Most of the time they still are not happy, or at least one of them is not.

It has gotten to the point of their bickering that I won't even shoot with them anymore because I am ashamed of their behavior. I actually dropped down to the adult freestyle class to get away from them and for me that was the best thing I ever did.


When I first started shooting in the Senior division years ago I shot with my friend Bill. I would drive to the city where Bill lived in and pick him up so I would have competition. Bill always outpointed me if we shot in the wind. Other times we would split the wins. Bill and I enjoyed each others company so much, I don't remember ever disagreeing about a point in the target. It just wasn't important to us.

Bill and I enjoyed the archery we shot together and winning wasn't our top priority. Too bad winning is definitely is your priority. Shame on you guys. You're missing out the enjoyment of archery and a great friendship.

Bill doesn't shoot anyone because of health issues and I sure do miss him. I guess Bill was one of a kind or was he?

r302


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## Rattleman

I just heard about this very recently and decided to check it out. Tom is crying that he got the shaft (pun intended) but he fails to see that he violated a major rule and he readily admits to it. That rule is falsification of a document. He readily signed the score card knowing that something was wrong and allowed it to be turned in. If protested by the others might he not have been DQ'd thus allowing the 3rd place finisher and the rest to move up a spot in the finish. Just a thought. I too would fight for the points if i thought that I earned them. I would lose when it was brought up to the NFAA committee because the lowest score would be the only one allowed but at least I would stand my ground. The only way this would have ever been caught if and only if the scores are compared after each target and we all know that is not going to happen. Lets face it stuff happens. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you. But under no circumstance should this have been placed out here for all to see. The only thing this shows is that envy is truely a green headed monster and the only outcome is strange feelings between two friend. I truely hope that you two can get past this petty indifference. Just my 2 cents.


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