# Extreme F.O.C



## bullfisher

ttt


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## 3B43

I tested high to extreme FOC's and due to those tests, am hunting w/an FOC arrow of 18%! First of all, my bow is tuned PERFECTLY! repeat, PERFECTLY, as this is critical for 'testing', e.g. I'm shooting Silver Flame XL 150's and they shoot perfectly out to 60 yds, just like my FP. For those of you that are not familiar w/this BH, its a fixed 2-bladed design that is 1.5" wide!

What I found out is this: I could use much smaller vanes w/this BH and it 'appeared' that the arrow flew perfectly down range. How small a vane? W/the XL150 I used 3 3d vanes! and the arrow flew perfectly--the AAE 187 vanes that I'm using for my 3d rig! I was REALLY surprised at this. Am I hunting w/this set-up? No, I sent w/3 mini Blazers.

PM if you want more info.


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## Josh_Putman

My hunting arrows I set up two years ago were Carbon Impacts, with a weighted insert and 125 grain heads. They ended up at about 18% FOC. Shooting Shuttle T-Locks, I was breaking nocks with them at 30 yards. I also used those arrows on an indoor 3-d league where hunting equipment was required, and they flew awesome. I really like the higher FOC, even though they drop off faster at distance. They just seem to be more accurate.


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## donheater

I shoot 16%
29 inch 2315 150 grain heads 4inch feathers
Shoots bulitt holes

Mike


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## EnglishKev

I shoot just over 20%.
They tune well and fly even better.
I am currently building a couple of arrows to test the 'high FOC drops faster' theory.
So, two arrows, identical length, spine and weight, same fletching, one high FOC, one low FOC.
I will post the results over the weekend (weather permitting).

Kev


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## bullfisher

EnglishKev said:


> I shoot just over 20%.
> They tune well and fly even better.
> I am currently building a couple of arrows to test the 'high FOC drops faster' theory.
> So, two arrows, identical length, spine and weight, same fletching, one high FOC, one low FOC.
> I will post the results over the weekend (weather permitting).
> 
> Kev


keep us posted on that one! Fita shooters use a higher foc (for better long range accuracy I assume) and got to thinking...... why doesnt everyone do that? Todays lighter GPI arrows make it possible to do this and still shoot a relativly lighter faster arrow thats still spined correctly. Anyone shoot High foc and still get 5 to 6 GPI?


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## Whitey375

I have alsoo been doing some EFOC experimenting myself. Not in the weight range you are talking but end up at around 450 grains. Also some around 525. One thing I did notice last year when just starting to play with this idea, not much POI shift. 
Ex: From my 101st set at 29" and 71#
446 grain FMJ's with around 10.5% FOC at 294fps
401 grain Carbon Express Maxima Hunters with about 12% FOC at 301fps
426 grain Carbon " " " with about 15% FOC at 297fps 
All had the same POI out to 60 yards, wierd.
This year I am planning on running no less than 16% probably around 19%, just need to buy another bow and get started, lol.

Another note; Is it me, or does everyone else that tries this and tells someone about it, have them try and talk you out of this? Except on here of course.


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## Tfox1

I am getting ready to do it on my new Maxxis 31 with ACC 440 Prohunters.I ordered some 150 gr Magnus stinger buzzcut 4 blades and will be shooting 4" spin wings which should be a very forgiving arrow yielding about 19%-20% foc at 420 grains.

I think this will be a deer killing machine.:darkbeer:


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## bullfisher

another note; is it me said:


> yes!!


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## Whitey375

That is what I thought.


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## Koorsboom

This is what I achieved thus far:

Carbon Express Rebel Hunter 6075: 28" 589gr
Point: 125gr
Added weight: 100gr.
FOC: 17%
Speed: 212f/s at 60# (PSE Mojo)

This is what I am aiming for in the new year:

Total arrow weight: 650gr
FOC: 20% +
Arrow speed: preferably 250F/s or more.

Any suggestions on shaft/point combination I may try to achieve these specs?

The Grizly Sticks is an option, but no one stocks it in South Africa and the Ashby broad heads and German Kinetics are VERY expensive.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by EnglishKev
> I shoot just over 20%.
> They tune well and fly even better.
> I am currently building a couple of arrows to test the 'high FOC drops faster' theory.
> So, two arrows, identical length, spine and weight, same fletching, one high FOC, one low FOC.
> I will post the results over the weekend (weather permitting).
> 
> Kev


I would also be VERY interested in these results as this is a hotly debated topic over here in South Africa ...


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## Koorsboom

I just finished reading through Dr Asby's latest reports and learnt about Ultra Extreme FOC arrows and their effectiveness.

These are arrows with a FOC of more than 30%.

Does enybody have an idea how one would go about to build such an arrow to be shot out of a bow of 65 - 75# draw weight? The arrow should weigh 650gr or more and travel at about 250f/s.


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## baldyhunter

My personal experience tells me high FOC is over-rated unless your hunting something very large. I played with tips between 85 and 125 grains last year and different spine arrows to match. I ended up with 85 grain Mugnus Stingers on GT 340 spined arrows with an FOC of around 9%. I'm no expert but have tuned alot of bows and I'm very, very picky as far as tuning goes. These shot exactly with FP and same group sizes at 60 yards and produced over 70 lbs Kinetic energy shooting over 300 fps. Way more than enough for Whitetails and speed as a bonus. Pass through (easily) on all three deer I've killed this year. I experiment every year so this year I'll try even more extreme FOC and I may learn something. But I have never had hunting arrows fly so well as this year at a sub10% FOC.


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## 5MilesBack

I have a 210gr Silverflame that I will be playing with this spring and summer. The only problem is that even at 210gr, the best I can get is 16% with my FMJ's and 18.2% with my TR Crush arrows. I also need a .300 spine arrow even with 100's or 125's, so I have no idea what the arrow spine ends up at with that 210gr head on the end.


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## Koorsboom

> ... unless your hunting something very large


Not necessarily something large, but I am tired of passing up shots just because the animal was not presenting a good broad side or quatering away shot. I want something that will be able to go through fairly heavy bone on most of the antilope species in South Africa.

I do a fair bitof walk & stalk hunting and I don't want to go through all the effort to get within bow range and then have to pass up on a shot because the animal was not positioned perfectly ...


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## J-Daddy

I've talked with Darrin Cooper "DD Bowhunting & ex-Head Engineer @ Hoyt" about this subject some and I know Coop really thinks it makes a difference...He told me the other day that the arrow he hunted with this year weighed in a tad over 500grs "I think he said like 507grs or so"...Anyway, Coop has played with high FOC's alot and he said he's found around 150grs of weight up front to be the sweet spot for him. In the past what he's done on his FMJ arrows is screw weights into his inserts and then run a 125gr head to get the weight...Now he's using the 50gr brass HIT inserts you can get to gain the extra weight. We were talking broadheads and vanes the other day and Coop always shoots either 3" or 4" vanes and various broadheads..I told him all the great flight I've had with 100gr Shuttle T-Locks and using Blazers and he said he was gonna play with some 2" Blazers on his 340 spine FMJ's with the 50gr brass inserts and a 100gr Shuttle T-Lock and see what he thought. I told him I've got Shuttle T's to fly well up at 330fps "X-Force" with Blazers so he said if that was the case he should get some great long range accuracy with them since his Alphamax 35 hunting rig isnt nearly that fast with his heavy arrows.


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## AR_Headhunter

baldyhunter said:


> My personal experience tells me high FOC is over-rated unless your hunting something very large. I played with tips between 85 and 125 grains last year and different spine arrows to match. I ended up with 85 grain Mugnus Stingers on GT 340 spined arrows with an FOC of around 9%. I'm no expert but have tuned alot of bows and I'm very, very picky as far as tuning goes. These shot exactly with FP and same group sizes at 60 yards and produced over 70 lbs Kinetic energy shooting over 300 fps. Way more than enough for Whitetails and speed as a bonus. Pass through (easily) on all three deer I've killed this year. I experiment every year so this year I'll try even more extreme FOC and I may learn something. But I have never had hunting arrows fly so well as this year at a sub10% FOC.


I've been shooting a set-up like that for 3+ years and loving the results. Many kills later & 1 hog going 400+ I have no complaints.


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## j.irvin

Higher f.o.c. arrows fly better in the wind, I can tell you that.


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## bullfisher

Koorsboom said:


> I just finished reading through Dr Asby's latest reports and learnt about Ultra Extreme FOC arrows and their effectiveness.
> 
> These are arrows with a FOC of more than 30%.
> 
> Does enybody have an idea how one would go about to build such an arrow to be shot out of a bow of 65 - 75# draw weight? The arrow should weigh 650gr or more and travel at about 250f/s.


I also read an article by dr ashby who did a 30+ year study on big game penetration and arrow flight his results were impressive. And another study by richard combs who discusses more about long range arrow flight and wind effects his findings on accuracy and forgiveness are unignorable. I shoot about 13% now which is adequate Im sure, but who wants adequate?


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## Whitey375

the highest I have been able to physically measure with Axis 300's is 17.9% using a 75 grain brass insert and a 150 grain head. The highest with Axis 400's is 18.6% using a 50 grain brass insert and a 150 grain head, but with those you'd have to use like a 50# bow. You can achieve 15.1 to 15.4% with the same set ups only with 100 grain heads. As far as price goes, I think Carbon Express Maxima Hunters with the built in weight forward is the way to go. I will try and keep everyone posted on my findings when I buy some on the 5th (payday, lol).


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## white.greg

By using an arrow like the Forge Slipstream, you can have a very high FOC and a light arrow at the same time. Light as in 315 +/- depending on head weight and fletchings used.


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## bullfisher

white.greg said:


> By using an arrow like the Forge Slipstream, you can have a very high FOC and a light arrow at the same time. Light as in 315 +/- depending on head weight and fletchings used.


Or a carbontech cheetah or a victory HV. All very light GPI with a 300 spine. The lighter and shorter the the arrow the more foc your capable of achiving.


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## Tfox1

baldyhunter said:


> My personal experience tells me high FOC is over-rated unless your hunting something very large. I played with tips between 85 and 125 grains last year and different spine arrows to match. I ended up with 85 grain Mugnus Stingers on GT 340 spined arrows with an FOC of around 9%. I'm no expert but have tuned alot of bows and I'm very, very picky as far as tuning goes. These shot exactly with FP and same group sizes at 60 yards and produced over *70 lbs Kinetic energy *shooting over 300 fps. Way more than enough for Whitetails and speed as a bonus. Pass through (easily) on all three deer I've killed this year. I experiment every year so this year I'll try even more extreme FOC and I may learn something. But I have never had hunting arrows fly so well as this year at a sub10% FOC.


Ke energy makes a big difference in arrow flight when we are dealing with controlling a broadhead imo.Shoot a 50 ke setup and shoot low foc in the wind and you might find different results.


In my own penetration test on wood and foam combined,11% was a sweet spot untill I got to 18% then penetration was awesome.5% on a HEAVY 700+ grain arrow sucked with penetration but adding foc and actually lowering overall weight yielded better results.


My son shot 16% foc with a 2 blade stinger on a 40# bow at 23" draw.The total arrow weight was 337 grain aluminum 1716's and got excellent grouping between broadheads and fp's.He got a complete passthrough on a 100 lb field dressed deer and stuck the arrow in a tree on the other side.Of course he caught no bone in the deer.


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## Aggieland

I have been asking this same question over and over on here and got very little in responce. Now we have a thread rolling.. lets hear how all your testing came out!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Aggieland

Anyone else think this is the way to roll?


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## EnglishKev

Ok guys,

Here are brief details of the first tests.
Arrows; GT expeditions 5575, 28'' from insert to centre of nock, 4'' helical feathers.
Arrow1; 100gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.1gr, FOC 21.4%, yellow nock.
Arrow2; 15gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.5gr, FOC 10.5%, white nock.

Test distances were shot out to 55 yards.
It would appear that FOC has little to do with drop.
As long as I did my part properly, there was very little difference in the vertical impacts of the two arrows.
I did notice, however, that the high FOC arrow seemed much more forgiving to shoot than the other.
I could get away with the odd slight form discrepancy and get a more accurate hit with it, also, the slight breeze that popped up every now and then seemed to have a greater effect on the low FOC arrow.
Penetration into the foam targets favoured the high FOC arrow as the distance increased.

Kev


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## bullfisher

did you say you had 225 grns at the tip of that 5575?


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## Aggieland

Excellent work my friend... Hope other follow suite and we get more information on this topic.. Good shooting by the way!!


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## Tfox1

EnglishKev said:


> Ok guys,
> 
> Here are brief details of the first tests.
> Arrows; GT expeditions 5575, 28'' from insert to centre of nock, 4'' helical feathers.
> Arrow1; 100gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.1gr, FOC 21.4%, yellow nock.
> Arrow2; 15gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.5gr, FOC 10.5%, white nock.
> 
> Test distances were shot out to 55 yards.
> It would appear that FOC has little to do with drop.
> As long as I did my part properly, there was very little difference in the vertical impacts of the two arrows.
> I did notice, however, that the high FOC arrow seemed much more forgiving to shoot than the other.
> I could get away with the odd slight form discrepancy and get a more accurate hit with it, also, the slight breeze that popped up every now and then seemed to have a greater effect on the low FOC arrow.
> Penetration into the foam targets favoured the high FOC arrow as the distance increased.
> 
> Kev


Thanks for the test,you proved to yourself and others what some of us already knew.Arrow weight is arrow weight,regardless of foc.As long as the foc is sufficient,the 2 should impact the same.The latter is the main reason I am trying it this coming year.I like all the forgiveness I can get.


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## EnglishKev

bullfisher said:


> did you say you had 225 grns at the tip of that 5575?


Yep.
When I switched to carbons from ali, I wanted to keep the weight up.
My hunting buddy in Florida suggested the 100gr inserts (he is a traditional shooter) so I tried them and liked the way the arrows shot.
I have stuck with them ever since.
The Steelforce Premium 4 blade broadheads and the Woodsman 3 blade broadheads which I use come in 125gr weights, so totals 225gr.

Kev


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## EnglishKev

Tfox1 said:


> Thanks for the test,you proved to yourself and others what some of us already knew.Arrow weight is arrow weight,regardless of foc.As long as the foc is sufficient,the 2 should impact the same.The latter is the main reason I am trying it this coming year.I like all the forgiveness I can get.


I pretty much had it figured out, it was just nice to actually go out and get some reasonable proof.
I am going to reconfigure the low FOC arrow by fitting a 100gr point and adding 25gr towards the back of the arrow to get below 10% FOC and then repeat the tests.

Kev


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## Whitey375

If anyone decides to use Carbon Express Maxima Hunters, Gold Tip screw in weights fit inside the shaft for the back of the insert. I did go out and buy 2 of them (arrows) yesterday and did point/weight combos for 75, 85, 100, 125, and 150 grain tip with insert weights ranging from standard inserts, 20, 50, and 70 grain. I have them all written down. I was able to achieve up to 21% with the Maxima 250's (total weight of 491 grains) and up to 19.6% with Maxima 350's (526 grains total weight). From what I gathered from my tests you can achieve 16%+ fairly easily and be right around 455 to 476 grains. I currently have emails out to Easton, Carbon Express, and Gold Tip about just how much weight will be safe, hopefully hear back from them on Monday or so.


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## dbowers

Alot of trad shooters set up arrows with EFOC for better penetration and flight for years. 

I have my arrows set with efoc on my trad tackle and like the results. I am shooting 200gr tip that give me 29% FOC. The idea to get EFOC is to shoot a slightly stiffer arrow and use heavier tips.


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## Whitey375

So I actually heard back from Carbon Express already, kinda..... the guy asked me if I was Chris White from England. I replied "No sir, I am from Oregon." Lol weird. I haven't heard back yet..
I was able to get 22.4% from a Maxima 350 though, with a 306 grain point/weight combo. Too bad it pushes the overall weight to 607 grains though.


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## Koorsboom

> I have my arrows set with efoc on my trad tackle and like the results. I am shooting 200gr tip that give me 29% FOC. The idea to get EFOC is to shoot a slightly stiffer arrow and use heavier tips.


What is the total weight of your arrows and would you mind sharing the arrow components with us?


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## 5MilesBack

EnglishKev said:


> Arrows; GT expeditions 5575, 28'' from insert to centre of nock, 4'' helical feathers.
> Arrow1; 100gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.1gr, FOC 21.4%, yellow nock.
> Arrow2; 15gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.5gr, FOC 10.5%, white nock.


Perhaps I missed something here, but how on earth do you get the same total arrow weight out of the exact same arrows, with an extra 85gr of insert weight on one? How did you get the other arrow with 15gr insert up to the same weight?


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## Whitey375

I am thinking he did it with weight tubes? 3gpi at 28"=84 grains.


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## EnglishKev

Whitey375 said:


> I am thinking he did it with weight tubes? 3gpi at 28"=84 grains.


Give the man a cigar, well most of one anyway.
I do not have any weight tubes, so I glued a length of plastic tubing into the nock, and then trimmed it to make the weight I needed.
I glued it to keep it in place at the rear of the arrow as the finished length was shorter than the arrow length.
I have since altered it again by fitting a 100gr point, and adding 25gr to the tube towards the rear of the arrow to drop the FOC down to 5.2%.
I will repeat the test using this arrow against the 21.4% arrow.

Kev


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## 5MilesBack

The other thing I did notice was the left and right separation between the two arrows at the further distances. Do you think that the differing arrow spine caused this? Because throwing an extra 85gr up front is going to affect the spine to some degree. This is the problem I have with testing this EFOV. I need a .300 spine arrow to begin with. Throw my 210gr Silverflame on a .300 spine arrow, and suddenly it's not a .300 spine arrow anymore.


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## Mark250

The spine would change by putting so much weight up front or putting it in the rear of the arrow. That is probably why there is a left and right difference in the arrow impact..


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## oldbuck

*Higher FOC is best for broadheads*

Hello,
I did similar tests and got the same favorable results with higher FOC. I used CX Maximas with 10.5 % FOC and 15% FOC. The 15% FOC always outperforemed the 10.5% FOC (accurracy) with a small difference in trajectory. 
Problem is many folks have 100 grain BH's. 
An easy way to do get higher FOC with the Maxima's is use an 8-32 x 3/4" set screw screwed into the insert from the back of the shaft. (you remove the nock and need someone to fabricate a 3/16" rod with the correct allen wrench on the end) You can get an extra 25 grains with that setup, more if the set screw is longer.

Works great and you get to use the 100 grain BH's you already have.

Thanks for the great test report.

oldbuck





Whitey375 said:


> I have alsoo been doing some EFOC experimenting myself. Not in the weight range you are talking but end up at around 450 grains. Also some around 525. One thing I did notice last year when just starting to play with this idea, not much POI shift.
> Ex: From my 101st set at 29" and 71#
> 446 grain FMJ's with around 10.5% FOC at 294fps
> 401 grain Carbon Express Maxima Hunters with about 12% FOC at 301fps
> 426 grain Carbon " " " with about 15% FOC at 297fps
> All had the same POI out to 60 yards, wierd.
> This year I am planning on running no less than 16% probably around 19%, just need to buy another bow and get started, lol.
> 
> Another note; Is it me, or does everyone else that tries this and tells someone about it, have them try and talk you out of this? Except on here of course.


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## bullfisher

My goal is to keep my arrow at 400-420 grns and still achieve a foc over 15%. Im pretty sure I can acomplish this with a Victory HV at 6.9gpi or carbon tech cheetah at 7.9gpi both have a 300 spine and my raw shaft will not exceed 28". I know the lighter thin walled arrows like these can be more brittle but Im not shooting concrete and have had even the toughests arrows bust from shooting elk. Has anyone had a bad experience with lighter gpi arrows or can recomend another brand with a 300 under 8.0gpi?


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## Whitey375

When I sent off those emails to the arrow companies, I told them that I would be shooting the arrows out of a 29.5" draw 70# Monster XLR8 and a 60# Monster XLR8 because I figured that would be worst case scenario. That way whatever they say should be safe for pretty much any bow, except for maybe an 80# XLR8...lol. I really hope I hear back from them on Monday.


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## Whitey375

Also I am not going to try and make ultralight EFOC arrows, a little "junk in the trunk" never hurt anyone. Besides that is why we have sight pins.


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## j.d.m.

oldbuck said:


> Hello,
> I did similar tests and got the same favorable results with higher FOC. I used CX Maximas with 10.5 % FOC and 15% FOC. The 15% FOC always outperforemed the 10.5% FOC (accurracy) with a small difference in trajectory.
> Problem is many folks have 100 grain BH's.
> An easy way to do get higher FOC with the Maxima's is use an 8-32 x 3/4" set screw screwed into the insert from the back of the shaft. (you remove the nock and need someone to fabricate a 3/16" rod with the correct allen wrench on the end) You can get an extra 25 grains with that setup, more if the set screw is longer.
> 
> Works great and you get to use the 100 grain BH's you already have.
> 
> Thanks for the great test report.
> 
> oldbuck


This is what has made me hold off on upping the foc. I have too many 100gr heads, and my inserts are epoxy'd in, I know i probubly could sell the heads i have, but there still are only a few co. that sell heavier heads over 125gr. Personaly i plan on staying with slick trick standards, and this idea of screwing into the back of the insert is the way to go. I had installed screws into the back of the inserts when installing some of them to test out the setup, but ended up using the rod ground to unscrew them later. I am going to do the set screw thing, as i need a bit weaker spine, and more front weight.


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## skybolt

I was thinking of switching from 125 gr. to 100 gr. broadheads but after reading this thread I don't think I will. Very informative thread guys. Keep up the good work.


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## Koorsboom

> When I sent off those emails to the arrow companies, I told them that I would be shooting the arrows out of a 29.5" draw 70# Monster XLR8 and a 60# Monster XLR8 because I figured that would be worst case scenario. That way whatever they say should be safe for pretty much any bow, except for maybe an 80# XLR8...lol. I really hope I hear back from them on Monday.


Please keep us informed on what they say ... 

I think I finally found a way to optimise my hunting setup without having to shoot a heavy draw weight bow and I am quiteexcited to get started on the project.


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## Skeeter 58

Very good info here. I only shoot 125 grain heads now because I like the extra FOC. The only thing is I went from feathers back to Blazers due to the extra durability of Blazers and wet conditions encounterd in this neck of the woods. So I went backwards some on FOC. I do have some other arrows of heavier spine so I am giong to try to locate some heavier inserts to bump the FOC up there. Any info on where to get various weighted inserts would be appreciated.


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## Jim D

You can order 50 and 100 grain brass inserts from some on line trad stores, like Kustom King Archery, 3 Rivers Archery, Lost Nation Archery, Raptor Archery, etc.


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## Koorsboom

We have "developed" various ways of increasing the point weight wo that is no longer a problem. 

My biggest problem is finding a shaft or shaft combinations that will give me the correct spine out of my bow of about 70# draw weight when the FOC of the arrow is around 30% and then to have a complete arrow weight of minimum 650gr.

Any suggestions ...


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## bullfisher

Koorsboom said:


> We have "developed" various ways of increasing the point weight wo that is no longer a problem.
> 
> My biggest problem is finding a shaft or shaft combinations that will give me the correct spine out of my bow of about 70# draw weight when the FOC of the arrow is around 30% and then to have a complete arrow weight of minimum 650gr.
> 
> Any suggestions ...


staying under 650 shouldnt be a problem. a shorter arrow also makes it easyer to obtain EFOC and greatly increases spine. gold tips big game 100 are right up your ally. go to goldtip.com and play around with thier arrow building page it gives you FOC and finished weight.


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## TailChaser

Using QAD tune-a-nocks will take 5-7 grains off the back, and obviously using lighter vanes like vanetecs will help too. I'd rather take it off the back than add to the front as much as possible, to lessen any nosediving effect.


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## 3D Pinwheeler

bullfisher said:


> My goal is to keep my arrow at 400-420 grns and still achieve a foc over 15%. Im pretty sure I can acomplish this with a Victory HV at 6.9gpi or carbon tech cheetah at 7.9gpi both have a 300 spine and my raw shaft will not exceed 28". I know the lighter thin walled arrows like these can be more brittle but Im not shooting concrete and have had even the toughests arrows bust from shooting elk. Has anyone had a bad experience with lighter gpi arrows or can recomend another brand with a 300 under 8.0gpi?


Gold Tip 22 Series are .300 spine and 7.3 grain per inch with a 30 grain insert they aren't too fat and would probably work well with what you're doing.


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## EnglishKev

Ok guys,

Here is FOC test part 2.
Arrows; GT expeditions 5575, 28'' from insert to centre of nock, 4'' helical feathers.
Arrow1; 100gr insert, 125gr tip, total weight 475.1gr, FOC 21.4%, yellow nock.
Arrow2; 15gr insert, 100gr tip, total weight 475.5gr, FOC 5.2%, white nock.

As you can see, I have restructured the low FOC arrow by installing a 100gr point and weighting the back end of the arrow to bring the total weight back up to 475gr with only 5.2% FOC.
Test distances were again shot out to 55 yards.

In these tests, indications were that the high FOC arrow actually stayed slightly flatter as the distance increased.
Not by much, but it was there.

Penetration into the foam targets again favoured the high FOC arrow as the distance increased.

Kev


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## Skeeter 58

Good post Kev. I am considering going to 150 gr. heads like the Magnus Stinger and Snuffer. I will have to do some work to try to figure out what arrows will work (Spine) and FOC.


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## EnglishKev

5MilesBack said:


> The other thing I did notice was the left and right separation between the two arrows at the further distances. Do you think that the differing arrow spine caused this? Because throwing an extra 85gr up front is going to affect the spine to some degree. This is the problem I have with testing this EFOV. I need a .300 spine arrow to begin with. Throw my 210gr Silverflame on a .300 spine arrow, and suddenly it's not a .300 spine arrow anymore.



The high FOC arrow is my normal set up, I built the lower FOC specifically for these tests.
I wasn't too worried about the sideways differential when conducting these experiments, also, could have been down to me LoL, the temperatures were down in the high twenties both days, brrr.

I just noticed, looking at the pictures from both tests, it is always the low FOC arrow to the right!

Kev


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## Tfox1

TailChaser said:


> Using QAD tune-a-nocks will take 5-7 grains off the back, and obviously using lighter vanes like vanetecs will help too. I'd rather take it off the back than add to the front as much as possible, to lessen any nosediving effect.


There is no nosediving effect.That is a myth,as proven in this thread.arrow weight is arrow weight,regardless of where it is at.


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## Tfox1

EnglishKev said:


> The high FOC arrow is my normal set up, I built the lower FOC specifically for these tests.
> I wasn't too worried about the sideways differential when conducting these experiments, also, could have been down to me LoL, the temperatures were down in the high twenties both days, brrr.
> 
> I just noticed, looking at the pictures from both tests, it is always the low FOC arrow to the right!
> 
> Kev


I would have to assume the right impact is the stiffer dynamic spine and your impact differences I am sure have as much to do with a very unforgiving shaft in the light foc arrow.You looked much more consistant with the higher foc arrow.


Plus,it looks as though the penetration was better on the high foc,of course the medium isn't in the best shape for a penetration test but on average,the lighter foc didn't penetrate as well.


I did the 5% foc thing and shot into a piece of particle board with 2" foam attached to it.The 5% foc sucked,even though I had the weight way up in the 700 grain range but a 450 ish gr arrow blew through the board with 18% foc.


----------



## shadetree

EnglishKev said:


> The high FOC arrow is my normal set up, I built the lower FOC specifically for these tests.
> I wasn't too worried about the sideways differential when conducting these experiments, also, could have been down to me LoL, the temperatures were down in the high twenties both days, brrr.
> 
> I just noticed, looking at the pictures from both tests, it is always the low FOC arrow to the right!
> 
> Kev


This is good information, Kev. I like the way my arrows "feel" and fly with heavy FOC. It could be my imagination, but the shot seems quieter with heavy FOC and over 400 grains. I mainly hunt, but occasionally shoot some
3D.
Were these field points or broadheads? Just curious.


----------



## 5MilesBack

EnglishKev said:


> I just noticed, looking at the pictures from both tests, it is always the low FOC arrow to the right!


From all my shooting I always find that spine differences cause the most left and right differences in impact. This is another issue with trying to get two arrows identical with the only difference being FOC. I'm not sure it's possible to keep the spine the same for testing.


----------



## lost n mi

how do you had more weight to the fron t of the arrow .iam using a 100 gr bh & f/t 

so i should go to a 125 gr tip & bh 

do they make screw on weights to add to the tips


----------



## lost n mi

how do you determine your foc ?

i got axis arrows with a 100gr tip & blazers their 27"in L


----------



## bagel77

is there a FOC calculator around?


----------



## bagel77

Okay I also have around question for you guys. How are you changing the insert weights? I know mine are glued in are you guys ungluing them and then regluing them? Or do you guys have special inserts that come in and out easier? I know this sounds like a stupid question ( I am typing it and it seems dumb) but I really don't know. I am asking this because I am planning on getting new arrows this year and being able to adjust FOC to get my sweet spot seems like the thing to do. Thanks in advance guys....I really like all the info in this thread.


----------



## EnglishKev

shadetree said:


> This is good information, Kev. I like the way my arrows "feel" and fly with heavy FOC. It could be my imagination, but the shot seems quieter with heavy FOC and over 400 grains. I mainly hunt, but occasionally shoot some
> 3D.
> Were these field points or broadheads? Just curious.


I agree with the 'feel' of the high FOC arrows.
All the tests were done with field points.

Kev


----------



## EnglishKev

bagel77 said:


> is there a FOC calculator around?


This is one.


http://home.att.net/~sajackson/archery9.html

Kev


----------



## Tfox1

EnglishKev said:


> This is one.
> 
> 
> http://home.att.net/~sajackson/archery9.html
> 
> Kev


I don't neccessarily agree with that calculator,I prefer to not add the point into the equation,Per AMO standards.


----------



## EnglishKev

bagel77 said:


> Okay I also have around question for you guys. How are you changing the insert weights? I know mine are glued in are you guys ungluing them and then regluing them? Or do you guys have special inserts that come in and out easier? .


I build my own arrows from componants, so have shafts, inserts etc on the shelf.
I like heavy, so my normal arrows use the 100gr inserts.
I have 50gr and 15gr also on the shelf so am covered if I want to try something new.
There is a method of using a drill bit flat end down inside the shaft from the nock end and then 'whipping' it to knock out the insert (in a safe direction).
I will admit, I have never got the nack of this.
If I have to remove an insert, I use an old field point, screw it into the insert, and then heat the tip.
I go very careful with the heat, and try twisting out the insert (using grips on the point) every few seconds so as not to transfer excess heat to the shaft.
I have found the most effective way of removing an insert is to hit a rock with the arrow, this seems to 'back' the insert out quite effectively. LoL

100 and 50 grain inserts are available from 3Rivers Archery in a selection of sizes.

Kev


----------



## EnglishKev

Tfox1 said:


> I don't neccessarily agree with that calculator,I prefer to not add the point into the equation,Per AMO standards.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Actually, if I am honest, when I use this one, I input the dimensions of the arrow excluding the tip:embara:
> 
> Kev


----------



## Tfox1

EnglishKev said:


> Tfox1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't neccessarily agree with that calculator,I prefer to not add the point into the equation,Per AMO standards.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Actually, if I am honest, when I use this one, I input the dimensions of the arrow excluding the tip:embara:
> 
> Kev
> 
> 
> 
> That works too.:darkbeer:
Click to expand...


----------



## Stryder

bagel77 said:


> is there a FOC calculator around?



I like Gold Tip's FOC calculator: http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/foc.asp

Question. Currently I'm using 5575s at 27.25" at 62lb. With a 125gr head, 4 inch vanes, and standard GT nocks/inserts, I'm at 13.32%. I can achieve just over 17% with a 50gr weight, but then I'm too heavy for a 400 spine arrow. If I bump up to the 7595 for a heavier spine, but then I need 150gr heads to keep above 17%. I'd rather not get new heads as I have plenty of 125gr Montecs to use up. Since I'm at 62lb with a short draw, 26", would I be ok using the 5575s with 190gr at the tip?


----------



## bagel77

anyone every use the PDP system. Thia insert system I think will work here is a link

http://www.pdparchery.com/124525.html

I was looking at the Premium Converta Point...if I am correct you can add weight to the back of the insert.

other question is a safety question. How do I know when I am adding too much weight and changing the spine making it too weak?


----------



## bullfisher

I have been doing alot of figuring on the limitations of spine vs point wieght too and have found that most companys dont even know! or at least the guy on the phone doesnt. One way to tell is to paper tune and see if your once bullet hole turns into a left tear (right handed) as this indicates a week spine. Be carful guys too week of a spine and you could really hurt yourself. And as for FOC calculations the most accurate way to do it is by hand. Measure from the knock throat to the end of the cut shaft only. with the tip installed find the balance point and mark it, measure from the knock throat to the balance point and devide that distance by the first measurement, subtract .50 and move the decimal point 2 places to the right. It seems wierd to do it that way but I've checked it with other calculators and its right on!!


----------



## wapitibowman

*This is going to sound crazy . . .*

2 years ago, I was shooting FMJs with 327 grains up front. The arrow was at 22% FOC, but the spine was 400. I could only get them to fly true to my field points by adding a fourth fletch. This seemed to stabilize the arrow flight. Total arrow weight was ~630 grains. 

It seems that the static spine of FMJs is too stiff. The dynamic spine seems to run weaker. I have found with these shafts that you have to use the spine lower than what is recommended for good flight. 

Here is my theory, extreme FOC leads to much more flex in the arrow, which can cause the dynamic spine to be much different than what is generally seen. I think the tables are a good place to start, but extreme FOC arrows are an entire different ball game and you have to do some tinkering to find out what is going to fly best for you. 

This year, I shot FMJ 340s with 200 grains up front. Total arrow weight was 532 grains. FOC was 15-16%. I shot a spike elk at 30 yards, clean pass through, the arrow traveled 30 more yards and buried itself 8 inches into hard ground. 

I like the outcomes. 

Wapitibowman


----------



## squish2519

I have found 15 to be my magic number, but usually end up around 13. Higher foc helps increase accuracy down range, but imo going extreme is not necessary. You could keep foc around 15 and increase total arrow weight and see improved down range accuracy as well as penetration. You will also find that foc is only one factor of the equation. Those shooting higher fps (300+) will have a dramatically different effect down range based on bh type/surface area.


----------



## Koorsboom

Kev, thanks for the great info. You don't perhaps work for Mythbusters?? :wink:




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Koorsboom
> We have "developed" various ways of increasing the point weight wo that is no longer a problem.
> 
> My biggest problem is finding a shaft or shaft combinations that will give me the correct spine out of my bow of about 70# draw weight when the FOC of the arrow is around 30% and then to have a complete arrow weight of minimum 650gr.
> 
> Any suggestions ...
> 
> staying under 650 shouldnt be a problem. a shorter arrow also makes it easyer to obtain EFOC and greatly increases spine. gold tips big game 100 are right up your ally. go to goldtip.com and play around with thier arrow building page it gives you FOC and finished weight.


I actually want to be as close to or just above 650gr. 

According to Dr Ashby's work 650gr is the "bone break threshold" weight where one can expect consistent bone breaking performance even on large bones if the proper broadhead is used. Below this threshold weight penetration in bone is not predictable.


----------



## EnglishKev

Koorsboom said:


> Kev, thanks for the great info. You don't perhaps work for Mythbusters?? :wink:
> 
> The rumours that I resemble the guy in the hat are............. well............not entirely inaccurate:wink:
> 
> (except for the hat)
> 
> Kev


----------



## Mac of Michigan

*Axis 400*

I shot 26.5 inch Axis N Fused 400's with the Muzzy 100 grain brass inserts, Bohning wraps, 4 inch AAE vanes, Tracer Noks, and 85 grain Montecs at 58 lbs and 28.75 inch draw length. That gave me a set up that shot 231 fps with a 13.66 FOC out of my Gander Mountain Tech Hunter Exterminator Pro. My arrows weighed 489 to 490 grains. 

They shot really well out to 25 yards with reasonable drop. At 27 yards they began to drop much more. I shot my doe at 24.5 yards at a severe quartering away shot out of my tree stand at 15+/- feet up. The arrow broke her hip/pelvis and ripped through the femoral artery, both lungs and her aorta. She piled up 22 yards later with her butt on her head. Blood shot over 6 feet into the grasses and brush. My arrow went 22 inches into her body and stuck in her. 

I wondered for a long time if 'heavier would be better'. I know my Maximas at 350 grains would not have broken that hip. So my conclusions are that I will now chase managable speed in the bow so I can shoot heavier arrows faster. I also read this year that carbon arrows are thought to perform better in a hunting scenario with higher FOC. It seems to make sense to me based on the stiffness of carbon vs aluminum.


----------



## Mac of Michigan

Koorsboom said:


> Kev, thanks for the great info. You don't perhaps work for Mythbusters?? :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually want to be as close to or just above 650gr.
> 
> According to Dr Ashby's work 650gr is the "bone break threshold" weight where one can expect consistent bone breaking performance even on large bones if the proper broadhead is used. Below this threshold weight penetration in bone is not predictable.


Has his research been performed with all/most of the newer carbon shafts or just with aluminum arrows? Is there a link where I could reference his data?


----------



## Koorsboom

In fact, it is only with the onset of carbon shafts that he has been able to build extreme and ultra extreme FOC arrows as both alluminium and wood are too weakly spined.

All of his research can be accessed through the following website:

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com

It is a lot of reading and sometimes the very technical stuff is either totally over my head and/or extremely boring, but I do believe it is well worth the read ... enjoy


----------



## Aggieland

Koorsboom said:


> In fact, it is only with the onset of carbon shafts that he has been able to build extreme and ultra extreme FOC arrows as both alluminium and wood are too weakly spined.
> 
> All of his research can be accessed through the following website:
> 
> http://www.alaskabowhunting.com
> 
> It is a lot of reading and sometimes the very technical stuff is either totally over my head and/or extremely boring, but I do believe it is well worth the read ... enjoy


So after reading all this info which I have scanned over from time to time. what do you belive for the modern compound shooter should we be using? I belive depending on what dw,dl etc you shooting an arrow 400g or better with an foc of 18% or beter would be my ticket..


----------



## Aggieland

Anyone ever used these to improve foc.. AMG Smart arrows


----------



## KU_Geo

bagel77 said:


> is there a FOC calculator around?


http://heilakka.com/stumiller/

Here is a dyanimc spine and FOC calculator that a lot of us trad guys use. The dynamic spine calculator is geared toward recurves/longbow/selfbows but you can play with it and see how adding weight to the front or back of an arrows effects arrrow spine. It also calculates the foc of an arrow. I've used this for several of my recurves/longbow and found that it is very accurate and most bows only require minor nock adjustment to finish tuning. 

I just started shooting a compound and am using 21% FOC. So far I've seen excellent arrow flight and some pretty good penetration.


----------



## Koorsboom

> AMG Smart arrows


Aggieland, what are these? I Googled it but only got back a reference to this post ...


----------



## Aggieland

Koorsboom said:


> Aggieland, what are these? I Googled it but only got back a reference to this post ...


They are a tapered shaft that some have informed me are very well made. They dont seem to have a web site. I know of someone that is getting a dozen this week and is going to report back to me on how they look and preform. I have been asking about them for awhile now and get little results so not many know about them yet.. I have the phone # to AMG his name is Roger and the # is 734-529-5269 If anyone knows much about these shafts please let me know!!


----------



## Koorsboom

It looks like something that may be exatctly what I am looking for. If someone has an e-mail address or Skype name I will appreciate it if you can post the information on here or send me a PM.

If the shafts are as good as people say they are, why is there so little information available?


----------



## Aggieland

Good question.. I'm considering giving them a try but I always buy the best products which are usually top dollar and these shafts are quite expensive so im still kinda setting back probably till after the ata show before I decide to buy any.. Hopeing more info comes my way soon..


----------



## Whitey375

Hey guys, got some meat to throw in the cage,,lol.
Ok Given the fact I told them that I was shooting a 60# Monster and a 70# Monster with 29" arrows this is what I learned.
From Easton's Technical line
From the 60# bow; Using a 300 spine Axis you can load up the front end with a total of 275 grains between the inserts and the broadhead.
From the 70# bow; Using a 300 spine Axis you can only use a total of 225 grains, which isn't so shabby anyways because that gives you 17.9% FOC with 560 grains of total weight in a 29" Axis 300.
From Gold Tip's Technical Support
When using a 29" Ultralight 300 out of either bow;
From the 60#; 250 grains is maximum combined point weight
From the 70#; 200 grains is maximum combined point weight
Note; When talking to Gold Tips' guy, he made mention of a few arrows, most notably, the Vapor line will be dropped for 2010 and replaced with a hunting version of the Ultralight series. Their Big Game series is going to be a .250 spine rather than a .280 as it has been, so consequentially the weight went up to 10.8gpi, about like tha Axis 300's.


----------



## Whitey375

Stryder said:


> I like Gold Tip's FOC calculator: http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/foc.asp
> 
> Question. Currently I'm using 5575s at 27.25" at 62lb. With a 125gr head, 4 inch vanes, and standard GT nocks/inserts, I'm at 13.32%. I can achieve just over 17% with a 50gr weight, but then I'm too heavy for a 400 spine arrow. If I bump up to the 7595 for a heavier spine, but then I need 150gr heads to keep above 17%. I'd rather not get new heads as I have plenty of 125gr Montecs to use up. Since I'm at 62lb with a short draw, 26", would I be ok using the 5575s with 190gr at the tip?


In what I got out of my conversation with the Gold Tip guy, I would say yes.


----------



## Whitey375

EnglishKev said:


> Yep.
> When I switched to carbons from ali, I wanted to keep the weight up.
> My hunting buddy in Florida suggested the 100gr inserts (he is a traditional shooter) so I tried them and liked the way the arrows shot.
> I have stuck with them ever since.
> The Steelforce Premium 4 blade broadheads and the Woodsman 3 blade broadheads which I use come in 125gr weights, so totals 225gr.
> 
> Kev


Hey Kev, When I talked to Gold Tip earlier I mentioned your setup. I am not sure what kind of cams are on your bows but if they are "speed" cams, you are riding the line. Just thought I would let you know.:thumbs_up


----------



## lost n mi

what do you use to get the extra weight on the tips


----------



## Whitey375

Either weights that thread into the back of the insert with a long allen wrench (Gold Tip $8), or actual heavyweight inserts (usually weight between 30 and 80 grains heavier than stock). They make a 50-75 grain break-off insert for your Axis that works really well. there are also custom ones out there that will go 100 or more.


----------



## bullfisher

Good homework ****** the guy I talked to gave me the run around.


----------



## Stryder

Whitey375 said:


> In what I got out of my conversation with the Gold Tip guy, I would say yes.


That is excellent news! Thanks for doing the leg work! Its GREATLY appreciated! :thumbs_up


----------



## Koorsboom

Whitey375, thanks for the info and keep us posted if you get feedback from any of the other manufacturers.

I sent e-mails to the ones I could get contact details for and only Alaskan Archery and Gold tip got back to me. 

The guy at Gold Tip recons he will hunt an African buffalo with a 400gr arrow as he believe the FOC issue is way overrated ... No comment frommy side.

An issue that was brought up by one of ourlocal PH's who also shoots very heavy set-ups is that one must make sure that the nock will be able to withstand the force extrted on it. He had a 95# bow bow "blow up" when the nock on one of his arrows broke.

Is there information available about the strength of nocks or how does one go about to choose the strongest ones?


----------



## EnglishKev

Whitey375 said:


> Hey Kev, When I talked to Gold Tip earlier I mentioned your setup. I am not sure what kind of cams are on your bows but if they are "speed" cams, you are riding the line. Just thought I would let you know.:thumbs_up


Thanks ******,

I think the Trailblazer and Razortec will be fine, I don't consider either of them to have ''speed'' cams.
I might have to double check arrow specs for the Alien when it arrives though.
Did the guy at Goldtip expand on 'riding the line'?
Was it just a spine issue?, or did he suck on his teeth and say 'ooh, they could blow up!!

Kev


----------



## lost n mi

Whitey375 said:


> Either weights that thread into the back of the insert with a long allen wrench (Gold Tip $8), or actual heavyweight inserts (usually weight between 30 and 80 grains heavier than stock). They make a 50-75 grain break-off insert for your Axis that works really well. there are also custom ones out there that will go 100 or more.


thank you !


----------



## bullfisher

I got the same discouragement from GT.


----------



## Mac of Michigan

Koorsboom said:


> In fact, it is only with the onset of carbon shafts that he has been able to build extreme and ultra extreme FOC arrows as both alluminium and wood are too weakly spined.
> 
> All of his research can be accessed through the following website:
> 
> http://www.alaskabowhunting.com
> 
> It is a lot of reading and sometimes the very technical stuff is either totally over my head and/or extremely boring, but I do believe it is well worth the read ... enjoy


What a read! I'll be doing things a bit different next year! Any one use the shafts mentioned on this website?


----------



## dbowers

Koorsboom said:


> What is the total weight of your arrows and would you mind sharing the arrow components with us?


I try to stay in the 10 grains per pound formula. So for my set up 550 grains total weight. I am shooting 50lbs, so they're slightly more then 10 grains per pound. To get the weight I needed I had to use weight tubes.


----------



## bullfisher

Talked to Nick at victory today and he was very helpful and encouraging in the EFOC area. They have a 6.9 Gpi 300 arrow that iv'e been looking at. He said they recently were able to get a 28" shaft to maintain spine with a 400grn tip. Wow! even if he's half right that affords alot of room for EFOC while maintaining a lighter faster arrow.the V-force HV will be my test subjects:wink:


----------



## wapitibowman

*FMJ experience*

Does the dynamic spine of the easton FMJ shafts seem stiffer than it should be or is this just my experience? Anyone else?


----------



## Whitey375

Koorsboom said:


> Whitey375, thanks for the info and keep us posted if you get feedback from any of the other manufacturers.
> 
> I sent e-mails to the ones I could get contact details for and only Alaskan Archery and Gold tip got back to me.
> 
> The guy at Gold Tip recons he will hunt an African buffalo with a 400gr arrow as he believe the FOC issue is way overrated ... No comment frommy side.
> 
> An issue that was brought up by one of ourlocal PH's who also shoots very heavy set-ups is that one must make sure that the nock will be able to withstand the force extrted on it. He had a 95# bow bow "blow up" when the nock on one of his arrows broke.
> 
> Is there information available about the strength of nocks or how does one go about to choose the strongest ones?


400 grains? Really? Can you say, begging for trouble? The only animal I have ever shot with an arrow of such light weight was a blacktail buck, I am glad it was only a 16 yard shot. Even then it didn't punch through when it hit bone.
As far as nock go, that is a tricky one. Maybe the Carbon Express nock collars? Or some sort of pin nocks? I would direct that one at Alaska Bowhunting Supply, or maybe one of the traditonal sites?


----------



## Whitey375

EnglishKev said:


> Thanks ******,
> 
> I think the Trailblazer and Razortec will be fine, I don't consider either of them to have ''speed'' cams.
> I might have to double check arrow specs for the Alien when it arrives though.
> Did the guy at Goldtip expand on 'riding the line'?
> Was it just a spine issue?, or did he suck on his teeth and say 'ooh, they could blow up!!
> 
> Kev


There wasn't any teeth sucking necessarily, but, like everyone else's experiences, Gold Tip hasn't really been on board with the whole EFOC thing. He did recommend that you "up spine" yourself to the next level however. I believe I may have told him your arrows were a bit longer though. Personally I believe that it may stem from Gold Tips' previous inability to maintain consistent spine. I know a guy who measured 34 Ultralight 400's to get a consistent dozen a few years ago.


----------



## Whitey375

wapitibowman said:


> Does the dynamic spine of the easton FMJ shafts seem stiffer than it should be or is this just my experience? Anyone else?


Yes sir, I have experienced that same phenomenon. I need to build a static spine tester. Last year I was shooting 28.5" Axis FMJ 400's with 100 grain heads at 295fps out of a 101st set at 29" and 71# with no problems other than after 55 yards my groups fell apart, a la 9.4% FOC. I think I could have been safe with 125's but never messed with them.


----------



## slim9300

5MilesBack said:


> The other thing I did notice was the left and right separation between the two arrows at the further distances. Do you think that the differing arrow spine caused this? Because throwing an extra 85gr up front is going to affect the spine to some degree. This is the problem I have with testing this EFOV. I need a .300 spine arrow to begin with. Throw my 210gr Silverflame on a .300 spine arrow, and suddenly it's not a .300 spine arrow anymore.


I would think that you are 100% correct.


----------



## Whitey375

bullfisher said:


> Talked to Nick at victory today and he was very helpful and encouraging in the EFOC area. They have a 6.9 Gpi 300 arrow that iv'e been looking at. He said they recently were able to get a 28" shaft to maintain spine with a 400grn tip. Wow! even if he's half right that affords alot of room for EFOC while maintaining a lighter faster arrow.the V-force HV will be my test subjects:wink:


Hey man, just checked out Victory arrows' website. Thought I would let you know that their claimed I.D. is .245", so you could use Gold Tips' screw in weights, because they measure .242". Oh yea!:thumbs_up
Which brings up an interesting point, if Gold Tip doesn't like EFOC; why do they give us the means to achieve it?


----------



## bullfisher

Whitey375 said:


> Hey man, just checked out Victory arrows' website. Thought I would let you know that their claimed I.D. is .245", so you could use Gold Tips' screw in weights, because they measure .242". Oh yea!:thumbs_up
> Which brings up an interesting point, if Gold Tip doesn't like EFOC; why do they give us the means to achieve it?


Funny thing is the guy actually recommended using goldtips weights... hows that for honesty


----------



## Whitey375

I appreciate honesty like that, makes me want to do business with them. Kinda like when you go into the pro shops and they call you by name.


----------



## EnglishKev

Whitey375 said:


> There wasn't any teeth sucking necessarily, but, like everyone else's experiences, Gold Tip hasn't really been on board with the whole EFOC thing. He did recommend that you "up spine" yourself to the next level however. I believe I may have told him your arrows were a bit longer though. Personally I believe that it may stem from Gold Tips' previous inability to maintain consistent spine. I know a guy who measured 34 Ultralight 400's to get a consistent dozen a few years ago.


Cheers ******, thanks for the info.
From what I can gather, the Aliens like a slightly weak spine anyway, so I will try my current arrow set up first.
I just didn't want the thought of the arrows failing in my head! LoL

Kev


----------



## Koorsboom

The longer this thread goes on the more I tend to think that this subject is very poorly understood by most archers/arrow manufacturers.

If the benefits were properly understood I am sure EFOC arrows would be very common and manufacturers would have shafts designed to achieve it or at least have detail available to the end user on how to get your arrows to have EFOC.

Maybe we would then also see a wider variety of heavy broad heads ...


----------



## mightybison

*Agreed*



Koorsboom said:


> An issue that was brought up by one of ourlocal PH's who also shoots very heavy set-ups is that one must make sure that the nock will be able to withstand the force extrted on it. He had a 95# bow bow "blow up" when the nock on one of his arrows broke.
> 
> Is there information available about the strength of nocks or how does one go about to choose the strongest ones?


I have had a problem shooting even 400 grain arrows with pin nocks. I stick to easton x nocks on my heavier fmj's and have had no problems


----------



## 5MilesBack

mightybison said:


> I have had a problem shooting even 400 grain arrows with pin nocks.


I have some 480gr GT CAA's with pin nocks that work just fine. But I also have some very light Victory HV's with pin nocks and have blown a couple of them off the arrow during the shot. Sounds like the bowstring hitting a wall. I'm not a big fan of the lightweight arrows.


----------



## EnglishKev

Koorsboom said:


> The longer this thread goes on the more I tend to think that this subject is very poorly understood by most archers/arrow manufacturers.
> 
> If the benefits were properly understood I am sure EFOC arrows would be very common and manufacturers would have shafts designed to achieve it or at least have detail available to the end user on how to get your arrows to have EFOC.
> 
> Maybe we would then also see a wider variety of heavy broad heads ...


I agree.
I think it is the trend towards speed, speed and yet more speed that causes this.
Light arrows at 300+ fps seems to be the goal for many shooters, and the manufacturers go with/encourage this path.

Keep the faith, Brothers of the EFOC, we will prevail.:thumbs_up

Kev


----------



## Mac of Michigan

EnglishKev said:


> I agree.
> I think it is the trend towards speed, speed and yet more speed that causes this.
> Light arrows at 300+ fps seems to be the goal for many shooters, and the manufacturers go with/encourage this path.
> 
> Keep the faith, Brothers of the EFOC, we will prevail.:thumbs_up
> 
> Kev


Good point! For whitetails speed gives a decided advantage. They are relatively easy to kill with a lighter, faster arrow. And if you follow the money...guess what market the capitalist archery business owners are gonna target. It is all about the dollars! :wink:


----------



## Whitey375

Ok just got of the phone with Carbon Express, I gave him "my setup" and he said with the Maxima Hunter 350's no more than 150 grains of total point weight for a 28.5" arrow. While that is 16% at only 458 grains, I would like a bit more. Again this rep didn't seem to be too supportive of heavy weights up front. However he did manage to drop the fact that they will be putting out a Maxima Hunter_450_ in March or so, that is a .298 spine, and he said throw as much weight on the front as you want, within reason of course. It will be 9.7gpi and have the same weight forward deal as the rest of them. He couldn't see the reasoning behind wanting all that weight up front and seemed stingy with the info, like it wasn't his idea so it was a bad one.... Strangely enough he also mentioned guys going to Africa with 100 grain heads, maybe Gold Tip and Carbon Express hunt together? Both in Utah I think. Conspiracy theories anyone....? lol


----------



## Mac of Michigan

Whitey375 said:


> Ok just got of the phone with Carbon Express, I gave him "my setup" and he said with the Maxima Hunter 350's no more than 150 grains of total point weight for a 28.5" arrow. While that is 16% at only 458 grains, I would like a bit more. Again this rep didn't seem to be too supportive of heavy weights up front. However he did manage to drop the fact that they will be putting out a Maxima Hunter_450_ in March or so, that is a .298 spine, and he said throw as much weight on the front as you want, within reason of course. It will be 9.7gpi and have the same weight forward deal as the rest of them. He couldn't see the reasoning behind wanting all that weight up front and seemed stingy with the info, like it wasn't his idea so it was a bad one.... Strangely enough he also mentioned guys going to Africa with 100 grain heads, maybe Gold Tip and Carbon Express hunt together? Both in Utah I think. Conspiracy theories anyone....? lol


I know those guys at CX. They are all Michiganders and hunt Whitetails mostly. Most of their RS&D folks are focused on deer and are only begining to hunt tougher animals. Pig hunting is taking off here. 
When I spent the week at Bowtech I met a bunch of Western elk hunters. They think way differently than we do. A 20 yard shot is not necessarily the average shot. They told me they take elk and Mule deer at 60 to 90 yards on a regular basis. 
Most of my customers shoot 15 yards! At a Whitetail, even a poorly made arrow hitting bone is gonna put the deer down. Those kind of 'slop shots' won't work on pigs, let alone bigger elk and moose size critters. I can't imagine a Rhino or Hippo at 45 yards even being hurt by a 300 grain arrow from a 60 lb 30 inch bow. It would have to be a great placement shot for the arrow to hit soft enough tissue to penetrate and kill those tougher animals. 
My guess is that those guys have weight tubes in their arrows and the rep you talked to isn't aware of that.


----------



## Aggieland

*What arrow weight?*

Seeing how this topic is being addressed by individuals that have the same intrest as myself.. Let me ask a question real quick.... I have noticed that as my arrow weight increases on a Kenetic Energy calculator the KE increases up to a certain point.. Then as the arrow weight increases and the speed drops the KE begins to drop down as well.. So i guess my question is what total weight arrow should I go with? My setup will allow me to shoot a 420g arrow at 321fps and 96.1 fp of ke.. A 500g arrow at 297fps and 98fp ke. After that as arrow weight increases ke and of course speed begins to drop..

Thanks :teeth:


----------



## BarneySlayer

5MilesBack said:


> I need a .300 spine arrow to begin with. Throw my 210gr Silverflame on a .300 spine arrow, and suddenly it's not a .300 spine arrow anymore.


The spine of the shaft wouldn't change, but I get what you mean. You'd need a stiffer shaft to maintain a matched dynamic spine. Nit picked.


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## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> Seeing how this topic is being addressed by individuals that have the same intrest as myself.. Let me ask a question real quick.... I have noticed that as my arrow weight increases on a Kenetic Energy calculator the KE increases up to a certain point.. Then as the arrow weight increases and the speed drops the KE begins to drop down as well.. So i guess my question is what total weight arrow should I go with? My setup will allow me to shoot a 420g arrow at 321fps and 96.1 fp of ke.. A 500g arrow at 297fps and 98fp ke. After that as arrow weight increases ke and of course speed begins to drop..
> 
> Thanks :teeth:


Its the mass of the arrow that continous to penetrate, the KE of the lighter arrow disapates in the animal where as the heavier carries the KE further...to certain extenet. I have heard that somwhere around 800grns is the point of mass/KE deterioration, yet Dr. Ashby has been known to shoot 1100grns!! Dont know what kind of animals your hunting but I've past through elk easily at 420 with less KE in fact thats my elk set up. But EFOC WILL produce more penetration and if I had my way I'd increase weight until I was right at 300 fps this way your BH wont tattle on a bad form shot or a twig deflection as bad


----------



## Whitey375

Well, I have found that at a certain point it is diminishing returns in reguards to KE. I shot an 80# Monster 7 tonight, and absolutely loved it. The draw cycle is like a 70# 6" Monster. SO, I immediately came home and jumped on the ballistic calc and found between 490 and 525 grains the KE peaks and then begins falling off. I only went to 600 grains and but it was still falling. Strange I thought, seeing as how a guy I saw with a 75# Monster and 1,003 grain arrows was shooting 221fps for around 117ft/lbs. As far as Ashby is concerned, he shoots 90+# recurves, different animals than an 80# compound.


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## Whitey375

I just fed that guy's info into the B.C. I was using and it reported 166 fps and 61.5ft/lbs. So maybe they aren't that reliable when you start pushing the envelope? Have to use just an arrow weight vs. arrow velocity formula instead of one that factors in your bow's IBO, your draw, draw weight, etc.


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## Mac of Michigan

*momentum*

I'd like to see some studies of how momentum affects penetration and flight. My bet is that momentum is more important than current archery dialogue presents. Does Ashby discuss that anywhere?


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## 5MilesBack

Whitey375 said:


> However he did manage to drop the fact that they will be putting out a Maxima Hunter_450_ in March or so, that is a .298 spine, and he said throw as much weight on the front as you want, within reason of course. It will be 9.7gpi and have the same weight forward deal as the rest of them.


I shoot the Maxima Hunter 350's out of my 60lb bow, and they have been the most consistently accurate arrows that I have shot. A .298 spine Maxima Hunter would be sweet. I have been asking them for that. I still like having the thinner diameter and thicker walled carbon now, but I would definitely try the 450's.:thumbs_up I still wouldn't be able to stack much weight up front with it however.


----------



## Whitey375

Mac of Michigan said:


> I'd like to see some studies of how momentum affects penetration and flight. My bet is that momentum is more important than current archery dialogue presents. Does Ashby discuss that anywhere?


I talked to Ed from ABS again today and that it what he was saying. I was telling him about the BC and the gradual rise of KE to the plateau then the fall. He said Ashby shoots with a minimum of 10 grains per pound of draw weight and an absolute minimum of 19% FOC. If you go to their(ABS), website there are all kinds of Ashby's notes and papers you can download or read, lots of info.


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## Whitey375

The formula for momentum is

p=mv

where p is momentum in kg*m/s
m is the mass in kg
v is the velocity in m/s
Just have to do the conversions to fps and grains


----------



## bagel77

So if I was going to mess with EFOC should I go one spine higher....if I am suppose to shoot 340 should I go for a 300 arrow?


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## bullfisher

bagel77 said:


> So if I was going to mess with EFOC should I go one spine higher....if I am suppose to shoot 340 should I go for a 300 arrow?


I would say yes, but keep in mind usually when you go up in spine you also go up in gpi which will make it harder to achieve EFOC. Especially if you have a certain arrow weight your trying to get to.


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## bagel77

bullfisher said:


> I would say yes, but keep in mind usually when you go up in spine you also go up in gpi which will make it harder to achieve EFOC. Especially if you have a certain arrow weight your trying to get to.


very true about the GPI, but with all the lighter weight arrows now a days hitting my weight shouldn't be a big problem. But I will keep it in mind.

Got to tell you guys I love this thread I have been learning so much.....thank you all. Keep the info coming


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## bagel77

my other question would be do I need to worry about being overspined? I mean how do I know how much weight I need to add to make it right?


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## bullfisher

bagel77 said:


> my other question would be do I need to worry about being overspined? I mean how do I know how much weight I need to add to make it right?


Unless you have a binary setup or something with perfect nock travel that favors a weeker spine you shouldn't be able to overspine yourself. Plus EFOC should max out your spine depending on your arrow setup. I suggest testing, dont buy a dozen arrows and cut'em all without testing different components.


----------



## bagel77

bullfisher said:


> Unless you have a binary setup or something with perfect nock travel that favors a weeker spine you shouldn't be able to overspine yourself. Plus EFOC should max out your spine depending on your arrow setup. I suggest testing, dont buy a dozen arrows and cut'em all without testing different components.


well the two bows I am shooting are an 07 Tribute and an 07 Black Ice?


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## bagel77

I am guessing the tribby will be a problem?


----------



## bullfisher

bagel77 said:


> I am guessing the tribby will be a problem?


I think you'll be good either way. you'll be changing your dynamic spine to fit your bow, with FOC components.


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## Whitey375

I found a guy who has a dozen uncut AMG shafts for sale. Thinking about buying them and seeing what they are all about. He said he bought 2 dozen and fletched and cut a dozen and couldn't get them to tune out of his 91# Tribute with 125 grain heads. But they shot great out of his 80# X-Force, in fact they shot so well he was poking squirrels with them at 50+ yards. So he sold the bow, yeah, I don't know either. Anyway I am going to call them tomorrow and get their shpeal, hopefully what the guy has wors for what I want to do with them. I did get enough info on them to find out that a 29" V3440 shaft, built with a 100 grain head, weighs in at approximately 415 grains, kinda light for me but we shall see. Also they are spendy, the guy is going to sell them to me for $160 for the dozen because that is what he says he has into them and he says he got a deal on them. AGGIELAND, you heard anything about price?


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## bagel77

hey ******....make sure to give us all a report on theses "smart" shafts. I have seen a guy talking these up every where on AT. But can't seem to get alot of info on them.


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## Whitey375

I called Allied Archery today and talked to a guy there for an hour and a bit, tons of info. I ended up ordering a half dozen shafts from my guy today, should be here in a week. They are a very interesting shaft, although I see one potential weak spot, but testing will tell. Basically the guy said take whatever shaft you are shooting, take the FOC percentage and add 3.5-4% to it when you set up a similar AMG shaft. It has an Axis-esque I.D., with thick walls. The one the majority of us will use (according from what I got out of the guy today), is the 28/30 shaft. It will weigh, for an uncut 32" shaft, 307 grains, and the nock/insert combo weighs a hair over 25 grains. It uses an Easton G-nock that directly press fits, no adapter needed. Finshed weight for a 28.5" shaft should be right at 304 grains with no tip with Blazers. It will take an adapter in the back of the insert to accept a weight made by PDP of various weights. He was quick to point out that putting weight back there doesn't have the effective gains as pure point weight. He didn't have an FOC for me with that arrow size with a 100 grain head on hand, but felt pretty certain it would be over 15%. The arrow he hunts with is 30 inches long with a 125 grain head and gets 18%, not sure what shaft, they have many. I told him that I was intending on shooting them out of a 70# Monster/Destroyer-type bow and asked, "Soo, just how much weight _can_ I put up front, with that setup anyways?" He didn't even flinch and said, "Stay around 200 grains." I think he heard me grinning over the phone. And this is with a shaft that has an unbuilt FOC around 8%, could get to 30%??He went on to mention that their GT20 3-D shaft will get 16% with a 75 grain head! Yeah, you read that right, *16% with a 75 grain head*. I mentioned that a possible set up would be a 28.5" shaft, 125 grain head, 30 grain weight, wrapped and fletched, total weight 460 grains +/- 5 grains, he said that he would not even question that out of "my setup". SOOOO has it been a week yet???


----------



## Whitey375

Oh yeah as far as price, they run with FMJ's. He said they sell them in 6-packs for an MSRP of $74.95, with a $64.95 minimum advertised price. I will let you all know what I pay for them. I was thinking of posting the phone number.....anyone interested??


----------



## bullfisher

whitey375 said:


> oh yeah as far as price, they run with fmj's. He said they sell them in 6-packs for an msrp of $74.95, with a $64.95 minimum advertised price. I will let you all know what i pay for them. I was thinking of posting the phone number.....anyone interested??


yes!!


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## Whitey375

LMAO!! I figured you'd bite, 1-888-342-8614, is the number I used. They are a wholesaler so that is why no website yet, so you are going to have to find a dealer that will order from them. The closest one to me that was on their "Active Dealer" list was in Medford, 3 hours south of me, but I asked if it was OK that I used someone else and there was no problem.


----------



## Whitey375

Well PDP finally answered, here is what they said.
Chris, 
We make adjustable weight inserts for the following ACC shafts:
3-28
3-39
3-49
3-60
3-71
You need to use a weight adapter behind the insert, followed by any combination of the following weights;
ACC3-28, 3-39 & 3-49 
WA10 - 10 gr weight adapter
SPW30 -30 gr weight
SPW10 - 10 gr weight
SPW5 - 5 gr final weight

ACC3-60
WA10 or WA20
SPW30B - 30 gr bulged weight
SPW10 - 10 gr weight
SPW5 - 5 gr final weight

ACC3-71
WA10 or WA20
SPW50 - 50 gr weight
SPW30B - 30 gr bulged weight
SPW10 - 10 gr weight
SPW5 - 5 gr final weight

The prices per dozen are as follows;
ACC3-28 to 3-39 - $18.32
ACC3-49 to 3-71 - $3.98
WA10 or WA20 - $5.48
SPW50 - 50 gr weight - $5.90
SPW30B - 30 gr bulged wt - $5.90
SPW10 - 10 gr weight - $3.90
SPW5 - 5 gr final weight - $2.36

You may order these direct or buy them from your archery supplier. Thanks for your interest in PDP products. 
Keith Jabben
President

----- Original Message ----- 
From: [email protected] 
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:01 PM
Subject: Insert weights


Hi, 
I just happened across your website and had a couple of questions. I was considering using the Easton ACC Prohunters in the 300 spine, but couldn't achieve the FOC I was wanting. Do you make inserts that will accept weights that will fit an ACC? If so, where could I get them locally? I live in Eugene, Oregon. Or would it just be easier to order them directly from you? Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. 

Sincerely,
Chris White


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## bagel77

you see I was getting all excited about those shafts....then you said you need to use a g-nock. My problem is I shoot fobs and last I checked I can't use g nocks.....F%&K


----------



## Whitey375

Umm, dump the FOB's? When I get them I am going to fletch 3 with feathers and 3 with Blazers. The guy suggested both, as the weights are both under 20 grains. What do FOB's weigh anyhow? I never bothered to check into them. Whenever I get these arrows built and shootable, I going to buy which ever bow I shoot that shoots them best. And of course there will be a full report.


----------



## white.greg

Whitey375 said:


> Well PDP finally answered, here is what they said.
> Chris,
> We make adjustable weight inserts for the following ACC shafts:
> 3-28
> 3-39
> 3-49
> 3-60
> 3-71
> You need to use a weight adapter behind the insert, followed by any combination of the following weights;
> ACC3-28, 3-39 & 3-49
> WA10 - 10 gr weight adapter
> SPW30 -30 gr weight
> SPW10 - 10 gr weight
> SPW5 - 5 gr final weight
> 
> ACC3-60
> WA10 or WA20
> SPW30B - 30 gr bulged weight
> SPW10 - 10 gr weight
> SPW5 - 5 gr final weight
> 
> ACC3-71
> WA10 or WA20
> SPW50 - 50 gr weight
> SPW30B - 30 gr bulged weight
> SPW10 - 10 gr weight
> SPW5 - 5 gr final weight
> 
> The prices per dozen are as follows;
> ACC3-28 to 3-39 - $18.32
> ACC3-49 to 3-71 - $3.98
> WA10 or WA20 - $5.48
> SPW50 - 50 gr weight - $5.90
> SPW30B - 30 gr bulged wt - $5.90
> SPW10 - 10 gr weight - $3.90
> SPW5 - 5 gr final weight - $2.36
> 
> You may order these direct or buy them from your archery supplier. Thanks for your interest in PDP products.
> Keith Jabben
> President
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:01 PM
> Subject: Insert weights
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I just happened across your website and had a couple of questions. I was considering using the Easton ACC Prohunters in the 300 spine, but couldn't achieve the FOC I was wanting. Do you make inserts that will accept weights that will fit an ACC? If so, where could I get them locally? I live in Eugene, Oregon. Or would it just be easier to order them directly from you? Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Chris White


Chris, with all this great research, did you look at the Forge Slipstream 70's?

http://www.forgebow.com/arrows/slipstream.html

I was doing some of the same research you are and these arrows looked good, I got pulled off with other things, but was coming back to these to try this spring. Steve is the owner and easy to talk to.

Greg


----------



## Kahkon

Fobs weigh 24 grains. How would putting a fob on change your foc? It is on last inch of the arrow. Fobs claim to fame is more stability shooting in cross wind and with broadheads. If I am reading these post correctly that seems to be the advantage of an extreme foc.

So, wouldn't it be easier to shoot fobs to get similar results to an extreme foc?? 

Anyway I will rerad the post in this thread and try to get an even better unstanding of an extreme foc.

BTW kev from england, if you want a few fobs to test, I will ship ya some to england. Pm me you address. I will send a few for small and med diameter shafts.


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## bagel77

yyup 24 grains...I rather not dump them I have found they work great....soooo but KahKon has a good questionabout the change in FOC with a fob


----------



## slim9300

Kahkon said:


> Fobs weigh 24 grains. How would putting a fob on change your foc? It is on last inch of the arrow. Fobs claim to fame is more stability shooting in cross wind and with broadheads. If I am reading these post correctly that seems to be the advantage of an extreme foc.
> 
> So, wouldn't it be easier to shoot fobs to get similar results to an extreme foc??
> 
> Anyway I will rerad the post in this thread and try to get an even better unstanding of an extreme foc.
> 
> BTW kev from england, if you want a few fobs to test, I will ship ya some to england. Pm me you address. I will send a few for small and med diameter shafts.


Adding weight (ie. FOBs) to the back of the arrow decreases the FOC. I would think that shooting FOBs is a lot like me shooting lighted nocks (27 grain total weight). I add 20 grains to the back of the GT insert to get FOC to 10%. I will be going to 50 grain weights very soon to get 12% FOC. Not extreme by any means but it's very difficult to get good FOC when you have so much weight in the rear of the arrow. The problem is that I love Firenocks way to much!


----------



## bagel77

how does the added weight in the back affect spine?


----------



## Whitey375

Greg, no, I have no checked out Forge arrows yet, but I will get there. 
The thing with FOB's, is they might be great, but I bet you get better control with 4" feathers. Even 4 fletched they will only weight around 12 grains+/-. Blazers, and most of their clones, weigh 18 grains for 3, still lighter than 24.
Bagel, this is what I was told, so take it with a grain of salt. Say you have an arrow with 15% FOC, and the spine is borderline for your set up, and then you go stack say 18-25 grains more on the back, a wrap, lighted nocks, etc, you will "effectively" get your dynamic spine more back in the middle of the road, but you will decrease your FOC. Like I said, grain of salt. 
The inherent problem in quantifying with dynamic spine is that there is no one way to measure it from what I have been told. If it was as easy as measuring static spine there would be no mystery to this archery thing.


----------



## slim9300

bagel77 said:


> how does the added weight in the back affect spine?


Weight in the back of the arrow "stiffens" dynamic spine. 
Weight in the front does the opposite.


----------



## bagel77

Thanks ****** and Slim. I thought the extra weight in the back might increase the spine.I also understand that it makes it more difficult to increase FOC. atleast not without creating a real heavy arrow. I have been doing some research on arrow weight and been playing wit the FOC calc. It is going to be real interesting picking an arrow this offseason. BUT I love reading this thread and all the info you guys have been supplying. So let me say this "THANK YOU" 

As far as the FOBs go it is tough for me to give up on them. I guess it's a personal thing. IF I must then I might.


----------



## dwsnc

Greetings all, I'm not new to AT but rarely post. I have been following this thread for several days now and find this to be very interesting. I have always had suspicions about the effect of FOC on arrow flight and this confirms what I've always thought. I do have one question though. What effect would a tapered shaft such as arrow dynamics have if any? I have shot some traditional archery and know how much better tapered cedar shafts fly, but have no exp. with tapered carbon. Thanks for all the great information.
Dan


----------



## Whitey375

Tapered shafts tend to penetrate through critters better, less drag because the hole is already as big as it is going to be. The drag through the air will be less as well. Also, assuming the wall thickness is constant through the length, it will be as stiff in the back with less weight thereby producing FOC within the shaft itself while mainting a constant spine. And the benefits are straighter arrow flight, quicker recovery out of the bow, possibly faster downrange speeds because the arrow is expending less energy in flight wiggling around and causing more air disruption. The AMG shafts I will be taking delivery of next week are a single taper shaft, widest at the point, narrow at the nock. Some years back Easton was making both a single and double, or barrel, tapered shaft, which I think they went back to with the X10(?). I think people didn't really understand how to use them and consequently they didn't sell well. I honestly believe that this is the way archery/arrows are going in the future (next week for me) and the more we push the manufacturers, the more we are going to get.


----------



## daddonati

Absolutely true, supply and demand! The more people who start experimenting with EFOC, hopefully the more manufacturers will start to recognize, and make part of their line up for us. Imagine... Carbon Express Maxima Hunter 350 EFOC....


----------



## dwsnc

******, please keep us posted as to how the AMG's work out. It's very interesting to me why modern arrow makers have not pushed tapered shfts more. In my limited experience the difference between parallel and tapered cedar shafts at traditional arrow speeds(150-200fps) is quite frankly, striking. I can only assume that at faster arrow speeds the difference would be the same or greater. Once again thanks for all the great info.
Dan


----------



## Arrowflngr

Carbon tech's panther is a tapered shaft, I have a CT cheetah with 185grn point setup that fly's awesome 20.4% i think, great in windy conditions even though its a thicker shaft than my ACCs 17ish%, which also have 185 points. Also try 4 small light vanes, you get the BH control + good crosswind performance like FOBs.
This is a great thread, like to hear others results with binaries using a softer arrow.:darkbeer:


----------



## Koorsboom

> I think people didn't really understand how to use them and consequently they didn't sell well. I honestly believe that this is the way archery/arrows are going in the future (next week for me) and the more we push the manufacturers, the more we are going to get


I hope it happens much sooner than later as that would then hopefully also mean that those of us living far from the USA will get better access to tapered arrows than what is currently the case.

At the moment it is a mission to get your hands on some to try out ...


----------



## Whitey375

Just reading through this whole thread again, as realized something no one had specifically addressed. It will be easier to acheive EFOC with longer, say 28"+, arrows. At least that is what I have understood. Not to mention the other, main, benefit of longer arrows, in flight stability.
Koors, I don't believe that it would be that difficult to get them (AMG's), if you have a supplier close that deals in AMG feathers they could get their hands on them. Only thing I could see as somewhat of an obstacle is the shipping cost.


----------



## Whitey375

daddonati said:


> Absolutely true, supply and demand! The more people who start experimenting with EFOC, hopefully the more manufacturers will start to recognize, and make part of their line up for us. Imagine... Carbon Express Maxima Hunter 350 EFOC....


They are coming out with the 450's in March....The guy said load those up with as much as 200 grains at 29" out of a 70# Monster/Destroyer type bow


----------



## Aggieland

Got a chance to listen to Dr. Asby at the ATA show.. Even more interesting in person.. For my North American Setup. Im still going to shoot an arrow under 500 grains. but Will be switching to the Carbon Tech Panther shafts and trying to acheve the highest FOC as possible. Might even shoot Slick Tricks new cross bow head it looks just like the orig head but weighs 175g. Plus a 20g incert and maybe some incert weights.. Acording to Asby you must have FOC over 19% to get the benefits like 60% more penetration. There are many things you can do to improve on your whole arrow setup but its not just something I can cover in one post.. Alaska bowunter supply has all his studies.. :mg:


----------



## Longbow42

I recently got a dozen of the AMG Smart shafts. They are very sweet looking and fly awesome for me. I got the higher tolerances shaft that costs $180 a dozen, so they are not cheap. They are very nicely made and begin thin like an older Beman shaft and taper out, but much more subtle then a Nitro Stinger. The shaft is very smooth with Carbon nano technology and so far they are very durable. My finished arrow is 30.5" long and I but a 20 grain PDP weight in the insert, plus I will use a 150 grain shaft. I think they may even replace my Carbon Tech Whitetail XP's.


----------



## rjdiii

*pro hunters*

Anybody know of any replacement brass inserts interchangeable with the HP inserts the Easton pro hunters use?


----------



## Whitey375

Are you talking about ACC ProHunters? If so, refer back to page 4 and my returned email from PDP.


----------



## Whitey375

LongBow, do you have any specs, ie, FOC, finished weight, etc? Would be greatly appreciated.
Aggieland, why the switch to the Carbon Tech?


----------



## rjdiii

*ACC Pro Hunters*

Not to seem stupid, ******, but the list from PDP applies to ACCs. Am I to assume that, for example, a 390 Pro Hunter would take the same size insert as a 3-49 ACC since they are both ACCs?


----------



## chasemukluk

bullfisher said:


> Or a carbontech cheetah or a victory HV. All very light GPI with a 300 spine. The lighter and shorter the the arrow the more foc your capable of achiving.


I used to shoot Forge's arrows. I really liked them, and I may buy some for 3d. They were tough, a bit lite for a hunting arrow. Personal preference of course. This was before the Slipstreams came out. Are they still in New Berlin WI?


----------



## Longbow42

Whitey375 said:


> LongBow, do you have any specs, ie, FOC, finished weight, etc? Would be greatly appreciated.
> Aggieland, why the switch to the Carbon Tech?


30.5" finished arrow weighs 460. My calculations give it a 15% FOC with a 125 grain point and 10 grain PDP weight. I used FF Flash vanes at 5 grains each. Insert weighs 9 grains and nock weighs 6.


----------



## Whitey375

ACC Pro Hunters 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to seem stupid, ******, but the list from PDP applies to ACCs. Am I to assume that, for example, a 390 Pro Hunter would take the same size insert as a 3-49 ACC since they are both ACCs? 

If they take an HP insert then yes they will. Stupid questions are the ones no one asks.


----------



## Whitey375

LongBow thanks. I got mine today at 29" with a 100 grain head they were about 15%, with a 125 I came up with 16.3%. total weight with 125's was 434 grains, a bit light for my tastes. But I haven't started messing with them yet either, lol. I am having some standard arrows built that weigh the same and will have a FOC of around 10% for comparative testing. Pick it all up on Friday, can't wait.


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## Whitey375

So I have been doing a little testing and have cautiously arrived at the following that has applied to *MY* testing. Out to 40 yards, indoors, with various bows (Z7, Monster6, Destroyer 350, Destroyer 340, AlphaMax 32, Maxxis 31, PSE Axe 6, Bowtech Admiral)
The high FOC arrows 
-shoot more consistent groups, no stringing
-penetrate deeper, usually about 2" depending on media
-more forgiving when I _know_ that I blew the release, usually no effect at all.
-enter the target straighter (more level)

This is what I have found so far. Soon I hope to have someone else shoot my arrows from their set ups at extended ranges and see what comes of it.


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## bagel77

hey ****** what was the FOC of the arrows you were testing?


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## Whitey375

Bagel, it was 16% almost on the nose.

However, I was just out in the garage playing and found what might be the answer...
29" AMG 28/30's with a 130 grain Magnus 2 blade (supposed to be 125's), a custom "Franken-sert" I made, and feathers that weigh less than 15 grains total.
Total weight: 486 grains
Total FOC: 18.96%
I know a Destroyer 350 will push that arrow weight at my specs (29" and 72#)to 297fps, that is 95ft/lbs of energy. I think I am in love......lol


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## Whitey375

Just did a few more scenarios and came up with the following:
-19.3% at 490 grains with feathers
-same as above 18.4% and 501 grains with Blazers
-16.2% at 466 grains with Blazers and a 100 grain head
-17% at 460 grains with a 100 grain head and feathers

BTW, the "franken-sert" has two incarnations:
-1. standard AMG insert with a 1/2" 8-32 stud connecting an Easton DG brass insert with the 25 grain portion snapped off and cut down on the thread end to weigh 41 grains
-2. standard AMG insert with a Gold tip 50 grain insert turned down on the o.d. to weigh 42 grains with a Gold Tip 20 grain insert also turned to weigh 17. Reason for turning them down is so they fit inside the shaft.

All the cool insert mods aside though, best way to boost FOC is on the business side of the insert.

I think I might have OCD.


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## mikajay

Informative material here, Ive enjoyed the thread.But wouldnt it be easier for the shorter arrows to achieve big numbers of Foc rather than longer ones?

Shorter say .400 shaft is lighter than .400 longer one. its stiffer and can be loaded with more weight in the front for same flight?And wouldnt the forexample 200 grains of tipweight affect more to the foc of a pencil than a 33" rod?Just trying to picture this.

r.mika


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## Whitey375

I will go actually measue this right now. Not working not much else to do, lol.
TO THE BAT CAVE!!!


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## Whitey375

OK well I took two Easton Axis 400 shafts built the same way. One was 28.5" long and I cut the second at 25". Using a 75 grain Easton DG HIT insert and a 125 grain field point, I came up with the following:
-28.5" shaft with 200 grains up front 18.6% FOC
-25.0" shaft with 200 grains up front 19.4% FOC
Now just need a 40-50# soft cam bow to shoot them out of. LOL. 
Personally I would rather shoot a longer arrow for in flight stability, well that, and I have a 29" draw and I don't like the idea of broadheads behind my hand.
So I guess I was told incorrectly when someone told me that it was easier to get higher FOC out of a long shaft. Good test though.


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## mikajay

******,
thanks for the test.I have a 26,5" draw and my arrows are 27" long.I agree with the longer, stable arrow though.
Im just playing with a new setup, .400 Cheetahs, and with short feathers(5grs/3) and a 150 grain point Im at 23% foc.And the whole arrow still weights just over 360grs.So the fletching and grains/inch (6.4 for these) also seem to play a big role.

r.mika


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## Whitey375

Just remember that when you start stacking weight up front you are changing the dynamic spine of the arrow and should jump up to the next (at least) spine rating. Also call the manufacturers and put it to them. Exactly how much weight you can put up front with a specific arrow out of your set up. I did. Most don't want you to go over around 200 grains with a 70# hard cam bow for a 29" shaft. There are a few, ie, Victory, AMG, Carbon Tech, and Alaska Bowhunting Supply (Carbon Tech) that have the b*lls to tell you the truth, my opinion, about what a carbon shaft can handle. Case in point, the guy I talked to at Victory said throw up to 400 grains on the front of their ultra straight, .300 spine, heavy, hunting shaft. I don't remember the exact name for it(shaft).


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## Outback7028

My brain just exploded.


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## mikajay

I shoot a compound and a recurve with fingers and have at least two sets of paper, bareshaft and broadheadtuned sets of arrows for each bow.
Cause tuning is fun! and it teaches you some.

The Das with 42" pro accents shoots epic 600s straight with a 100 grs point(340grs overall.

For it to work with axis 500, it needs about 80 grains more for the pointweight(450grs).

For the Drenalin ld at 60# I have tuned epic 400 and Cheetach 400 (cheetach being slightly stiffer on the scale) with 125 and 150grs points.

The compound seems to need a bit more than 80grs for every .100 more in stiffness, so the axis 300 tunes with point of 250grs.Lots of possibilities, speeds and focs.

r.mika


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## Whitey375

That sounds good. Easton, however will tell you that out of a 70#, hard cam, short brace heigth, bow that they don't want you shooting anymore than 225 grains total point/insert weight with a .300 spine Axis of any kind including the FMJ's. Personally I think the people I talked to were just looking at their arrow recommender and weren't speaking from any kind of knowledge base. Just hotline staffers.


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## mikajay

Sure.Ill never handle such energy with my short draw.Experimenting and finding what works is half the fun.Charts will get you to the ballpark but its only just a recommendation.I dont quite agree leaving it at that nor understand people letting some shop to do your tuning for you.

r.mika


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## mudslinger2

Great thread.

My scenario and what would you do to increase the FOC and what components would you do it with and where to get them.

27.75" Gold Tip XT Hunter 75/95 @ 8.9 gpi
standard insert @ 12 grains
FOB's @ 27.6 grains
nock @12.6 grains
100 grain point
Total weight of arrow @ 410 grains

AT 70# I am getting about 88# KE and about .57 momentum
FOC is about 8%

Calculations from 410 grains to 435 to 460 grains (25 to 50 grain heavier tip weight) shows almost the same KE and going from .57 to .58 to .60 momentum, but the FOC goes to 10.45 for the 25 grain addition and 12.57 for the 50 grain addition. This is based on loosing 8fps for 25 grains and 16fps for 50 grains.

About the only thing I am set on is using the FOB's. I HATE fletching. Anything else i would be willing to change.

My main animal to hunt is whitetail with an occasional elk, but I am going to Africa in Sept. i went last Sept with this set up with 100 grain ST Magnums and had no problem with harvesting animals, but this thread has got me to thinking about forgiveness, stability and penetration.

Opinion, please. Thanks


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## Whitey375

Personally I would go to an arrow in the 480-520 grain range. I am not familiar with the HCA Speed Pro's IBO ratings but if you can get 311 out of a 410 grain arrow at 29" and 70#, I am guessing 340+. There exists an "apex" of sorts where KE and speed numbers level out for a range. There is a point of diminishing returns though where KE is concerned, however momentum continues to increase long after KE has fallen away. For example, you and I have the same specs in regards to DW and DL, I fed those numbers into Backcountry Bowhunters speed approximator assuming a Destroyer or Monster6 type bow. If you go there and do the same thing you'll be able to see what I am talking about. It is a little slow from my _actual_ testing but not too far. I am going to shoot my 29" AMG's at 490 grains with a 130 grain Magnus two blade, although I may switch to a 4 blade before season starts. A Destroyer 350 I shot the other day sent them at 296fps. That is like 96ft/lbs. 19.3% FOC. I have 57 grains, not including the insert itself, behind the point. It flat *sinks* into the ranges' block targets. 

If you do not want to switch to a heavier head, just order their brass insert weights, I have been modifying them to suit my needs. You are going to need either their, or find one yourself, 32" allen wrench to put them in an already built shaft. Just make sure when you get where you want with weight and FOC to epoxy them to the back of the insert. I think I paid like $9 for a dozen weights at my shop. Going to a heavyweight, (125 grains+), Magnus or the like will be the quickest way to boost FOC though. You may want to jump up to the Big Game 100's as far as arrow choice goes, they are like a .268 or .286 spine, can't remember. They said you could throw around 250 grains on the front of that shaft. And they are only around a grain per inch heavier than the shafts you are shooting now. 

I hope that helps.


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## Aggieland

Ok help me out. I think I pm'ed you.. anyway here we go.. I have narrowed it down to the AMG or Nitro stinger shafts.. I want to keep my arrow weight under 500 total grains.. Help me build this shaft and pick a brand.. 82# SR-71 27.5" draw length.. What brand will have a spine stiff enough to add over 200 grains to the front? I would like to use the QAD nocks 4g each and then some small 3g 3-d vanes.. Then on the head I am thinking about using the new X-Trick from slick trick its a 175g head plus incert and screw in weights.. ARE the AMG Shafts the way to go or what?? Ahhhhhh im loosing it.. My bow will arrive monday and im arrowless!!!!!!


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## mikajay

Aggie,

sorry I know nothing about amgs.But you are to blame for letting me know about the new Tricks!Slick tricks are my favourite non coc heads and come now in 175grs weight, perfect for lighter shafts when hunting for higher Foc.And the old mag blades should fit these.An order is in allready.Thanks.

With Cheetach 400s cut a little shorter they would make an 25% Foc projectile weighting mere 380grs.Should penetrate the shoulder of a rabbit.(thats all I can hunt at the moment)Even without single bevels..

r.mika


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## white.greg

Aggieland said:


> Ok help me out. I think I pm'ed you.. anyway here we go.. I have narrowed it down to the AMG or Nitro stinger shafts.. I want to keep my arrow weight under 500 total grains.. Help me build this shaft and pick a brand.. 82# SR-71 27.5" draw length.. What brand will have a spine stiff enough to add over 200 grains to the front? I would like to use the QAD nocks 4g each and then some small 3g 3-d vanes.. Then on the head I am thinking about using the new X-Trick from slick trick its a 175g head plus incert and screw in weights.. ARE the AMG Shafts the way to go or what?? Ahhhhhh im loosing it.. My bow will arrive monday and im arrowless!!!!!!


Well if you go with the nitro stinger gold, at 8.9 g/in x 27.5 = 245 + 200 g up front + vanes and nock, maybe 21g more, your at 465. right where you want to be. 

I'll be on the other end of the spectrum with my 60# bow. Nitro Stinger Orange at 8.1 g/in x 29.5" = 240 + 115g up front and about 14g worth of nock and feathers, Total of 368g. 

OBTW, I learned that Arrow Dynamics makes the Forge arrows, don't know if they are the exact same shafts, but make by the same folks. Also Basin Archery has Nitro's on sale. http://www.basinarcheryshop.com/product/NS-04-720


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## Aggieland

I keep getting pulled between the Nitro stingers and The AMG shafts.. Cant decide which I want to buy


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## Aggieland

Im affraid if I use these 175g heads and cut the AMG shafts to 26" the AMG shafts will be to weak of spine..


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## Aggieland

Ok I dropped the hammer and ordered a dozen of the AMG shafts.. Hope they can do what im planning... hehe Cant wait!!!


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## mudslinger2

******, i just received some 50 grain and 10 grain screw in weights for the inserts and as soon as the weather clears, i am going to play with the FOC and speed to see what i can get with different FOC, different arrow weights, speed, KE and momentum. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Whitey375

Aggieland, you ordered the 28/30's right?

Mudslinger, I am glad that I could help you out. Keep me posted on the progress. I don't think you'll lose as much speed as you think you will. I am thinking as long as you can keep your speed up around 285-290, with a 440+ grain arrow, you'll punch through whatever you hit without delay.


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## mtjk

I just got my Carbon Tech panther tapered shafts in the mail. I am in the process of fletching and will weigh and give FOC soon.


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## Lurch2824

bullfisher said:


> My goal is to keep my arrow at 400-420 grns and still achieve a foc over 15%. Im pretty sure I can acomplish this with a Victory HV at 6.9gpi or carbon tech cheetah at 7.9gpi both have a 300 spine and my raw shaft will not exceed 28". I know the lighter thin walled arrows like these can be more brittle but Im not shooting concrete and have had even the toughests arrows bust from shooting elk. Has anyone had a bad experience with lighter gpi arrows or can recomend another brand with a 300 under 8.0gpi?


Off Hand, Gold Tip Vapor, 8.2 I think with 7595. .300's. Would get you in that ball park range your looking for.


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## mtjk

Carbon tech Panther 376g total weight
27.5"
100 gr point
20 gr insert
4" wrap 3 duravanes
16.2 FOC


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## mudslinger2

Here are some #'s from some playing I did today. Out of these #'s, which arrow would you choose and why.

410 grn @ 312 88.53# KE .57 momentum 7.95% foc

460 grn @ 298 90.62# KE .61 momentum 12.52% foc

480 grn @ 291 90.17# KE .62 momentum 14.03% foc

510 grn @ 284 91.25# KE .64 momentum 16.05% foc

560 grn @ 269 89.89# KE .67 momentum 18.9% foc

There was an unreal noise difference between the 410 and 560 grain arrows. The 560 was whisper quiet and very noticeable.

Thoughts?


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## Aggieland

Man Depends on what I was hunting I guess.. The 510 or 480 both are pretty fast... And have decent KE.. But lack the extreme FOC..


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## Whitey375

mtjk, that sounds like a great set up for a 60# bow. i think for a 70# bow I would try and pack on a little more front end weight. What is the spine on those anyway?

mudslinger, I would be willing to bet that if you bounced those FOB's at your 480grain set up, and went with Blazers or even feathers, your FOC would jump to about 16 or better. But from what you have built there, I would grab the 510 grain set up, still "useable" speed, good FOC, and that seems to be right at the peak of where your KE tops out. For your specs, and mine, they peak where velocity and KE peak at between 490 and 515 grains, after that your output becomes sort of a diminishing returns. That is why I was going to go with my AMG set up with at 490 grains and 19.3% FOC. If you have the extra money, build three of each starting at 480 grains and see what groups best out to say, 60 yards. Definately check into getting a hold of Gold Tip and pick their brains about limits, but I think when I talked to them they said stop at 200 grains. I don't want to feel responsible if you, or anyone, puts a carbon shower in the back of their hands.


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## mtjk

I am shooting them at 62 lbs. My monster has been shooting 420 gr @290fps (28"dl) and I am hoping to push the 375's at over 300 with at least a 16% foc. No chance to get to the chrono yet but maybe tomorow I will. I cut the nock end of the arrows and at 29" they would have been 330. (info from CT phone call) At 27.5 your guess is as good as mine ?? 300 ?? No info on the CT website.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Aggieland, you ordered the 28/30's right?
> 
> Yeah, Im hoping to get a 175g head and a 20g incert on the tip of these shafts at least.. Maybe even more if possible. Right now my dealer has my bow and says its shooting bullet holes with a 75/95 Gold tip .340 spine with 100g heads.. So if I cut these shafts down to 26" or so I think I can get at least 200g on the head end.. Would be nice to get 220 on the front, that would equal serious FOC and enough total arrow weight.. right around 460-480 grains.. @ 305-315fps..:wink:


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## mtjk

Tried my new CT panthers today. 16% foc. They weigh 376 grains. For comparison I shot some 425 gr (easton carbon). Both weights are with 100 gr tips. 
The 376 gr arrows with the tapered shafts and 16% foc shot better and what suprised me was the penetration. I know its not scientific but shooting into layered foam at the archery shop, the 425s penetrated about 16-17 " on average and the 376s penetrated almost to the fletching, about 23" average. This was in the same area of the target and an average of about 20 shots with each type of arrow. I would have been happy if the lighter arrow penetrated as much as the heavier one and it went past it. I guess weight is not the only factor for penetration. Both types were shot out of the same bow (monster) the 425's were going about 285 fps and the 376's about 302 fps. (28" DL @60 lbs)


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## Whitey375

Aggie, I think you may not need the 20g insert to break 20%. I have 196 grains on the front of my arrows that are Blazer wrapped and 3 fletched with Blazers, so 24 grains in the back, and I get 19.3% with the 28/30's, and if I switch to a 150 grain head I am over 20%. BTW, where have you found those 175 grain heads? I can't find them anywhere. I think that your dealer is going about setting up your bow the wrong way, those arrows have about 10% FOC, or about whatever mudslinger is shooting.

mtjk, sounds like you have your set up man. Good test. If you really want to blow your mind, shoot some arrows with 8-12% FOC of the same weight so you get the same speed. And then look at penetration.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Aggie, I think you may not need the 20g insert to break 20%. I have 196 grains on the front of my arrows that are Blazer wrapped and 3 fletched with Blazers, so 24 grains in the back, and I get 19.3% with the 28/30's, and if I switch to a 150 grain head I am over 20%. BTW, where have you found those 175 grain heads? I can't find them anywhere. I think that your dealer is going about setting up your bow the wrong way, those arrows have about 10% FOC, or about whatever mudslinger is shooting.
> 
> mtjk, sounds like you have your set up man. Good test. If you really want to blow your mind, shoot some arrows with 8-12% FOC of the same weight so you get the same speed. And then look at penetration.


How did u know what my dealer is using? kinda lost me on that one. The 175grain slick tricks were free samples at the ATA show.. They are called the XBOW Trick.. let me see if i can get ya a pic. they are sweet.


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## Whitey375

I am setting up a target bow to shoot the state indoor here in two or three weeks and was shooting today. The guy I borrowed the bow from sent some ACC 500's with it, only a 48 pound draw, and they have a FOC of 11.2%, total weight 380 grains. As I was shooting today I noticed they were kind of erratic in flight, so on a whim I broke out some Axis 300's that had the 75 grain DG insert glued in, screwed a 100 grain head on the front and went outside. Total weight was 510 grains, FOC of 15.4%. First off I noticed that they were impacting the exact same point as the 130 grain lighter shafts. I was only shootng at a single spot as I still hadn't had everything dialed in. Then I robinhooded a pair of the Axis. Then I switched to a 5 spot face! But I noticed that once I got the sights adjusted properly, it was x after x after x, it was like I couldn't miss. I just need to buy some more now.


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## Whitey375

Because you said your dealer had your bow and it "was shooting bullet holes with the 75/95 Gold tips with 100 grain heads"? LOL


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## Aggieland

*Here ya go..*

Xbow trick One bad mother..


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Because you said your dealer had your bow and it "was shooting bullet holes with the 75/95 Gold tips with 100 grain heads"? LOL


Yeah im going to have to play around with the setup when I get her.. Im assuming he used 100g heads.. prob so


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## Whitey375

Nice looking heads. I tried some 175's on my standard AMG's, and got right at 17.8% FOC and 498 grains, didn't bother with them on the heavy ones. Because if I liked the figures, I would try and shoot them and I am thinking 240 grains out front is too much at 29" long and 70+ pounds. I think I will stick with my heavy inserts and the 130 grain Magnus, for 490 grains and 19.3% FOC.


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## Longbow42

Whitey375 said:


> Nice looking heads. I tried some 175's on my standard AMG's, and got right at 17.8% FOC and 498 grains, didn't bother with them on the heavy ones. Because if I liked the figures, I would try and shoot them and I am thinking 240 grains out front is too much at 29" long and 70+ pounds. I think I will stick with my heavy inserts and the 130 grain Magnus, for 490 grains and 19.3% FOC.


******, How are your AMG arrows flying? How do you like them?


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## Koorsboom

I finally managed to build an arrow that came very close to what I wanted ... 27" Victory V1 shaft with a 200gr tip and additional 200gr metal rod behind the insert. Together with three 4" feathers the total arrow weight is 657gr and FOC 30.2%.

Problems however started when I wanted to tune the bow to the arrows ... the hotmelt I was using to glue in the metal rod is not doing its bit and the inertia of the rod causes it to sort of remain behind while the rest of the arrow is going forward.

What method can I use to secure the rod behind the insert? I don't really want to use a piece of weight tube to hold the rod in place as it would add to the weight of the arrow. I also need the longer rod length glued in place as this seems to shorten the part of the shaft that can still flex thereby effectively stiffening the spine and getting it in line with the draw weight of the bow and the very heavy tip in front.

Any suggestions owuld be appreciated ...


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## outback2hunt

Found a lot of good info on this thread and decided to increase my FOC since I need to purchase arrows anyway. What do you guys think of this hunting arrow for a 65 lb bow with a 27" DL and 27" arrow?

27" GT XT Hunter 7595
125 lb head, 15 gr insert, 50 gr screw in weight
FOBs, GT nock, wrap

Based on Ontarget I get a total weight of 472 grs with a 16.7% FOC. Program says spine is still good, but I've never put that much weight up front. Anybody shoting anything similar? Thanks.


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## Stryder

Anyone looking for a really massive head? I came across these while broadhead shopping: http://www.bowhunterssuperstore.com/muzzy-phantom-grain-blade-p-934.html

220gr MUZZY!!!!!!


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## mikajay

Koorsboom,

I had succes gluing additional weightrods with just epoxy.Adding it both ends, it builds up behind the rod.Its permanent though
.Impressive numbers you got.What are you going after with those, rhinos?

Aggieland,

bout the xTricks, are they the same diamer than others or thicker?


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## Aggieland

I would say its thinker. Its a very impressive head, it also fits the Dia of your average shaft very well..


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## Corsair

You're all fiddling at the edges. None of those are heavy point - THESE are heavy points :wink::

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=720375&stc=1&d=1265576421

They weigh 770 grns each and I turned them up on my lathe. Why so heavy?
Well at my club we like to shoot clout occasionally and I shoot it with a compound. However since we have limited room we can only get 100m for the event. So to make it practicable to use my bow I needed to make super heavy arrows that wouldn't go so far and this was the result. They will actually fly to nearly 180m at max elevation. I haven't tried them at indoor although they would be slow.

They are attached to my X7 2212 and I shoot them with 1.8 inch Flex Fletch vanes. 

I can't recall the FOC now but it was extreme and you may be surprised to know that the arrows fly very well indeed and group very nicely at 100m.


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## Aggieland

nice


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## Whitey375

LongBow, I really like them so far. But I am only shooting them out of a 48#Mathews Conquest that I borrowed. As I currently don't have a hunting bow, come on tax returns!!

Koors, Amazing numbers man! I would either try to thread the front of that rod with the 8-32 so it threads into the back of the insert then epoxy it together, or JB Weld might hold it?

Stryder, I thought about those, just nowhere close to buy them. That and I am not sure how well they would shoot at 290fps+.

Outback, that sounds just about perfect to me. I would shoot it. I think you would do well to boost FOC and drop some weight if you dumped the FOB's, but that is me. I would just put 3 of them together and compare them to 3 arrows of the same weight but 10% or so FOC. I would be willing to bet that they will penetrate deeper, be more consistently accurate, and maybe, just maybe, be a little faster.

Corsair, All I can say is, F-in cool. really, really, F-in cool.


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## Aggieland

What ****** ? Nothing for me? come on.. lol


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## outback2hunt

Thanks ******. I plan to get both the 20 gr and 50 gr weights so I can try a few different combos and see what works best. Thanks for your input.


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## Whitey375

Aggieland said:


> What ****** ? Nothing for me? come on.. lol



You got to give me something to work with man! Lol.


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## Aimnfire

*GT XT Hunters*

Guys,
I picked up some GT XT Hunters 7595 that I plan on cutting to 28", got the 50 and 20 grain insert weights, and would like to have 235 grains up front. I know ****** you spoke with GT and they said 200 gr up front on some ultralights at 70 lb draw weight. My question is: since i'm cutting them an inch shorter and using a hunting arrow running 8.9 gr/inch compared to 8.2 on the Ultralights would I be OK putting more than the 200 GT recommended at 70 lb draw weight. I will be shooting them thru an AM35 with around 500-505 total arrow weight so I won't be shooting high speeds (thinking around 250 - 260 fps range). My FOC would be 19.92%. Any opinions? I more than likely will call GT.


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## Aggieland

I bet what you have will work fine.. Seems like most bows today are likeing a softer spine.. And im sure these arrows can handle more than they state.. Im not expert but give them a shot and see how it goes..


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## Whitey375

I think you'd be too heavy in the front for those arrows. Last I checked 75/95's are a .340 spine. What is your draw length? However I would say, with some trepidation, that if your DL is under 28" you should be OK, but definately call them. Also arrow gpi doesn't mean nearly as much as spine.


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## Alchatron

*Free FOC for all *

I'm shooting 15% with my VForce 400 and 100 gr. FP. and I have to say this works great. But it's really important that the complete setup is tuned to its best. Because a high FOC can't fix everything  
For hunting I would even recommend 20% FOC due to a better flight and even better penetration. Which seems quite logical > more weight on front is more engery hitting the game.


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## Aimnfire

I had some GT Expedition Hunters which are the same specks as the XT Hunters as far as GPI and spine. I threw 225 grains up front at 28" length and shot them. I've got to say that they fly very nicely! They are shooting bullet holes through paper, penetrate my target about 3 inches farther than my FMJ's (which are 15-20 grains less total weight) at 30 yards with the same POI. The best part is they didn't blow up! If I decide to keep that much weight up front will the arrows eventually blow up if they are going to or do you think they would do it right away? I like to shoot quite a bit (3 or 4 days a week in the winter, more in the summer).


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## Whitey375

I am thinking it may not do it right away but personally I am not willing to find out. It may It all has to do with what kind of cams your bow has also. If you are shooting a hard cam high IBO bow like an 80# Monster XLR8 it will have a different effect on the arrow's spine than say, a hybrid camed mid IBO speed bow like a 60# AlphaMax. You are correct in that you have to decide what works for your set up.


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## Aggieland

Got my AMG Tapered Shafts in today from 3children They look pretty sweet.. I need to have them cut and then start playing around with Head weight and fletching.. So here is my question for you guys with experience, I can cut my shaft length down to a min of 25" or I can cut it longer out to 27.5-28"... If I cut the shaft down short the FOC will be higher and spine will be stiffer allowing my to add even more weight up front for higher foc.. If i cut them longer I will be limited on how much weight to stack up front and my FOC will be a little lower because of the longer arrow.. what should I do? :mg:


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## skybolt

Aggieland said:


> Got my AMG Tapered Shafts in today from 3children They look pretty sweet.. I need to have them cut and then start playing around with Head weight and fletching.. So here is my question for you guys with experience, I can cut my shaft length down to a min of 25" or I can cut it longer out to 27.5-28"... If I cut the shaft down short the FOC will be higher and spine will be stiffer allowing my to add even more weight up front for higher foc.. If i cut them longer I will be limited on how much weight to stack up front and my FOC will be a little lower because of the longer arrow.. what should I do? :mg:


Are they tapered from full length? If so how are you going to make sure you have cut them square with the centerline? Don't know anything about tapered shafts, just asking. Does the squaring tool have a pilot arbor?


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## Aimnfire

I was able to speak with the tech guy at GT he was very helpful. I told him I wanted to put 215-235 grains up front on a 28" XT Hunter out of a 70 lb Hoyt AM35. His first question was 'Why'. He doesn't seem to buy into the extreme FOC "craze". He did say that that arrow would be able to handle that much up front, but that putting 150 - 160 grains up front would be plenty (14% FOC range) and that anymore FOC isn't necessary. He did mention that with as much weight as I was going to put up front that I would need "plenty" of fletching to steer the arrow. He suggested I try 4 fletched arrows. Doesn't this conflict with what has been said on extreme FOC that with more weight up front you would need LESS fletching? He also said that with so much weight up front the arrows are going to be harder to tune. I tested out some Expedition Hunters with the same specks as teh XT's and I was getting bullet holes through paper with zero adjustments.

At any rate i'm happy that the arrows I got will be able to hold up to what I am testing. So far I am happy with what I'm seeing as far as arrow flight. I can't wait to test it with broadheads this spring.


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## slim9300

Aimnfire said:


> I was able to speak with the tech guy at GT he was very helpful. I told him I wanted to put 215-235 grains up front on a 28" XT Hunter out of a 70 lb Hoyt AM35. His first question was 'Why'. He doesn't seem to buy into the extreme FOC "craze". He did say that that arrow would be able to handle that much up front, but that putting 150 - 160 grains up front would be plenty (14% FOC range) and that anymore FOC isn't necessary. He did mention that with as much weight as I was going to put up front that I would need "plenty" of fletching to steer the arrow. He suggested I try 4 fletched arrows. Doesn't this conflict with what has been said on extreme FOC that with more weight up front you would need LESS fletching? He also said that with so much weight up front the arrows are going to be harder to tune. I tested out some Expedition Hunters with the same specks as teh XT's and I was getting bullet holes through paper with zero adjustments.
> 
> At any rate i'm happy that the arrows I got will be able to hold up to what I am testing. So far I am happy with what I'm seeing as far as arrow flight. I can't wait to test it with broadheads this spring.


Most people at GT don't know what they are talking about. I have called them multiple times and I wasn't impressed. 

You will not need more fletching in the back to stabilize the arrow. You could actually go with less. He was confused.


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## Aggieland

That is correct.. Seems about 90% of arrow makers dont have a clue about High FOC or how it helps arrow flight and penetration.. Also he is correct you will auctually need less fletching for stablization with higher FOC..


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## white.greg

Aggieland said:


> Got my AMG Tapered Shafts in today from 3children They look pretty sweet.. I need to have them cut and then start playing around with Head weight and fletching.. So here is my question for you guys with experience, I can cut my shaft length down to a min of 25" or I can cut it longer out to 27.5-28"... If I cut the shaft down short the FOC will be higher and spine will be stiffer allowing my to add even more weight up front for higher foc.. If i cut them longer I will be limited on how much weight to stack up front and my FOC will be a little lower because of the longer arrow.. what should I do? :mg:


I can't see any advantages to longer, if you want more total arrow weight, then add it up front and increase your FOC.


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## white.greg

skybolt said:


> Are they tapered from full length? If so how are you going to make sure you have cut them square with the centerline? Don't know anything about tapered shafts, just asking. Does the squaring tool have a pilot arbor?


Great question! Can't wait to learn the answer.


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## Aggieland

On these shafts you cut from the front end you have a section that is the same dia in the front that can be cut down..


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## Aggieland

*Ok folks I need some help.. I can cut my shafts all the way down to 25.5" this will increase my spine allowing me to add more weight up front increasing FOC also having the Arrow at 25.5" increases spine over a 27" arrow cut.. So I guess what im asking is does it hurt anything to cut the arrow down to 25.5" it will be just about a 1/2" in front of my QAD rest. or should I cut them longer say to the front of my riser? Im thinking cut them short and then add as much weight as needed to get the spine right.. anyone got any Ideas?*


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## skybolt

Aggieland said:


> On these shafts you cut from the front end you have a section that is the same dia in the front that can be cut down..


Ok but when you lay on the saw table won't it still be cutting at a very slight angle? Wouldn't you have to use a squaring tool to true it up?


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## Aggieland

Well since the front section of the shaft is the same dia for probably 8 inches or so. I guess you could just hold down on the front so the shaft dosent set at an angle.. Thats a good question i have not thought of... Maybe someone that has worked with these shafts will fill us in..


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## Rockyhud

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread before tonight. I've been pondering the same thoughts about FOC and arrow weight for several months, trying to figure things out myself by logical deduction and what other, albeit somewhat limited, info I found on the web. I couldn't stop reading and learning what you all have discovered and passed on for all of us to benefit from. A big thank you to all of you guys. The only previous thread that got my attention as much as this was one that went into a LOT of detail about tuning the Martin CAT cams, since these are on my bow. What a nice difference that tuning made. Anyway, thanks for all the hard but fun work you all have put into this. I've bookmarked this thread for reference later.

As I said above I've been trying to figure this out and wasn't aware of all the weights and other "stuff" available to change the characteristics of the shafts until late this week. I was off on a tangent thinking I would have to buy new, heavier shafts and starting all over, leaving my CX Maxima 350s for smaller game like pronghorns and such. Now that I know there are weighted inserts and add-on weights for existing inserts I may be able to continue shooting them after all. Right now these are setting with a meager 8.66% FOC and 390 grains total weight. I'm thinking now I can either change out the standard inserts for weighted ones or possibly add weights to the existing inserts and get FOC up considerably along with the weight, hopefully up close to 500 grains or so.

Aggie, as to your question about which length to choose, if it were me I would cut the shaft so the broadhead is in front of the riser. I can see your point on both aspects but I would just err on the side of safety on that one. Good luck with whichever length you go.


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## Aggieland

*Ohh yeah.. getting things rollin*

Welcome Rocky! This topic is very interesting and many folks out there are not interested in talking about it at all.. If you want to learn more you can visit alaskabowhunting.com and read all of Dr. Asby's reports. If you do that you will learn more about arrow flight and penetration that you ever imagined. So far what most of us guys are doing is trying to get our FOC as high as possible. I have my shafts and just fletched up some. I have decided to go with the Bohing X-vane shield cut 1.75" at 3.5 grains each.. That combined with my 175g xbow trick and the 9 grain incert will get me really close to my goal of at least 19% FOC.. After I cut these shafts down I will decide if I need to add any weight to the back of the incert.. 

Ok, new info guys!!!!! I talked with the guys at Alaska Bow today about something.. Cutting shafts shorter makes the FOC increase without adding anything up front or taking away from the back.. SOOO they dont know what the better move is.. To cut the shaft shorter getting higher FOC or leave it longer with the tapered shaft.. Its kinda a catch 20/20 but they have talked with Dr. Asby about the topic and are planning on researching it.. Im probably going to cut my arrows down to 26" and then see how it shoots through paper with the 175g head and incert. If it can take it i will add 20grains to the back of the incert and see how that goes. Adding more and more till i find a stopping point.. lol.. :mg: prob going to be happy if i can get 204 grains on the front end of the arrow.. if i get alittle more then thats great.. keep you guys posted later into next week when I get things rolling.. Im very excited!!!! these AMG tapered shafts are pretty sweet!!


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## Aggieland

bump for ******


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## Whitey375

Casey, the AMG shafts are tapered continually up to the last 10" of the insert end of the shaft. Personally, I think a guy's arrows should be no more than a 1/2" shorter than his draw, but that is me. I think at 26" you will get your 19% with just the 175 grain head and the standard insert, my arrows are 3" longer than that and I have a total of 197 grains up front, and 24 grains on the back, and I get 19.3% so I don't think you'll have an issue. 
Rocky, try a 150 grain Magnus and a 3 gpi weight tube should put you at about 480 or so. You could also switch to the CX 350 Maxima Hunters, I was getting 14.2% at 426 grains with 125's and have a slightly heavier overall weight. Or there are the 450's coming out in March.
Skybolt, yes while you should use an ASD of some manufacture, however if you roll the arrow while you cut it it will be good enough that you wouldn't notice the difference.

OH BEFORE I FORGET:::My Black Ops Destroyer 350 showed on Saturday, so the hyper serious OCD testing will begin in earnest very soon. I think I might shoot the state indoor with it, but I have 2 weeks to get it set up, so we'll see.


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## Aggieland

I cant believe your getting that much FOC out of your arrow length and head weight.. I played around with one the other day it was still at 32" and was only like 16 or 17%.. But thats at 32" the Gold tip foc calculator I believe with these shafts will be off at least a % low on FOC.. Right now im trying to decide on using small feathers or even smaller bohing X vanes shield cut.. feathers will weight in at 4.5 grains and the vanes will weigh in at 10.5.. But I know the feathers will stablize the arrow better, only thing is I have never used feathers and im affraid to switch because of the type of backcountry hunting I do. I know im probably way off on giving feathers credit.. oppinions?? :teeth:


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## Aggieland

Hey ****** you have 197 grains up front on these AMG shafts at 29" and they are not underspined? That means At 27 or less I could go just over 200 and prob not have a problem.. But then again I am pulling 81.5 pounds.. hmm food for thought I suppose.


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## Aggieland

*Hmmmmm*

Hmm Feathers or vanes.. can't decide.. :mg: 4.5 grains for the feathers.. and 10.5 grains for the vanes..


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## Whitey375

According to the man, I am not underspined, he said up to 210 grains and I would be safe. Did I mention that I cut 1/2" off the back first? I think that you should call him and burn the hour that it usually takes.
Also, what is the brace height on that bow, and what would you consider those cams, hard or hybrid? I would run plastic, I am too hard on things to run feathers myself. I don't think the hassle is worth the advantage.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> According to the man, I am not underspined, he said up to 210 grains and I would be safe. Did I mention that I cut 1/2" off the back first? I think that you should call him and burn the hour that it usually takes.
> Also, what is the brace height on that bow, and what would you consider those cams, hard or hybrid? I would run plastic, I am too hard on things to run feathers myself. I don't think the hassle is worth the advantage.


Im in the same boat as far as far as the plastic vs the feathers on the durability issue.. I have 1/8" cut off the back and then arrows will be cut down somewhere between 27-25.5" Will prob add a 20g weight to the back of the incert just for more FOC and a little heavier arrow, then roll with the small plastic vanes if they stablize the broadheads well. Which with 19-20% FOC they should.. Im getting excited, the only concern I have is how they well they are going to spine with this setup..


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## PoppaPump

Must be big game hunters!!! I stopped at 175!! But liked what it did, good luck!!!


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## white.greg

Another thing to consider when calculating FOC is the effective lever arm of the arrow. The effective lever arm = distance from center of mass of vanes to center of mass of the arrow, the balancing point of the arrow. This distance decides how effective your vanes will be. 

Here is a simple example with one of my old arrows.


125gr tip, regular 4" plastic vanes, set 1" back from nock, 12gr nock
- FOC = 12.33, effective lever arm = 15.90"

125gr tip, regular 4" plastic vanes, set 0" back from nock, 12gr nock
- FOC = 12.13, effective lever arm = 16.85"

125gr tip, FOB, 12gr nock
- FOC = 11.81, effective lever arm = 18.25"

So even though a FOB decreases the arrow's FOC, it actually increases the effective lever arm because it's center of mass is .25" behind the arrow shaft as opposed to 2.25" in front for a standard 4" plastic vane.

Now if you switch to a 5gr "Tune a noc", 2" Razyr feathers set all the way back and a tapered shaft, the effect of the FOB is decreased, but should be looked at.


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## Aggieland

So would placing the vanes or feathers closer to the nock be better ? I get what your saying but your math is better than mine..


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## white.greg

Aggieland said:


> So would placing the vanes or feathers closer to the nock be better ? I get what your saying but your math is better than mine..


That's exactly what I'm saying! 

By moving the vanes 1" closer to the nock, the FOC went down 4% (from 12.33 to 12.13% FOC), but the effective lever arm when up 13% (from 15.9" to 16.85").

Moving your vanes back, right next to the nock is like free stabilization gain.

This is why FOB's work well despite the fact that they lower your FOC, because they are all the way to the back of the shaft.

Now, I don't like FOB's too much, I have some, but they touch my face and you can't shoot groups, but the science is good.

For me, I'll be trying the light AMG's with 2" razyrs pushed all the way back and 4 grain tune-a-nock's. Probably only 125 grain heads.


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## Aggieland

white.greg said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying!
> 
> By moving the vanes 1" closer to the nock, the FOC went down 4%, but the effective lever arm when up 13%.
> 
> Moving your vanes back, right next to the nock is like free stabilization gain.
> 
> This is why FOB's work well despite the fact that they lower your FOC, because they are all the way to the back of the shaft.
> 
> Now, I don't like FOB's too much, I have some, but they touch my face and you can't shoot groups, but the science is good.
> 
> For me, I'll be trying the light AMG's with 2" razyrs pushed all the way back and 4 grain tune-a-nock's. Probably only 125 grain heads.



I have some of the tune a nocks but they wont fit the small dia of the AMG shafts I have.. The nocks that fit the arrows weight 6.1 or so grains so thats not bad.. I need to move my fletching further back than what I have them!! Thanks for the advice.. I have a blitzenburger fleching jig and im pretty much just beginning with fletching etc, but looks like an easy fix..


----------



## white.greg

Aggieland said:


> I have some of the tune a nocks but they wont fit the small dia of the AMG shafts I have.. The nocks that fit the arrows weight 6.1 or so grains so thats not bad.. I need to move my fletching further back than what I have them!! Thanks for the advice.. I have a blitzenburger fleching jig and im pretty much just beginning with fletching etc, but looks like an easy fix..


Try one and see if the vanes touch your face and if that bothers you. Otherwise, as far back as possible is best.


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## Aggieland

white.greg said:


> Try one and see if the vanes touch your face and if that bothers you. Otherwise, as far back as possible is best.


Excellent, tonight I will start playing around with it.. I dont think it will bother me but ya never know.. Thanks for the tip!


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## white.greg

Aggieland said:


> Excellent, tonight I will start playing around with it.. I dont think it will bother me but ya never know.. Thanks for the tip!


Be sure to post your results.


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## Aggieland

*Hey *******

Man, I hate to brake the news to ya.. But there is no way your arrow setup is reaching 19% FOC, If your using Dr. Asby's method. I had my arrows cut today and i have less weight in the back and only 10 grains less in the front im getting 18.50% FOC.... Anyway Sounds like if I want to reach the Golden 19% FOC then Im still going to have to add more weight to the front of my arrow.. I have decided to try the plastic vanes "shown above" first and see how they preform with my broadheads and if they dont stablize well enough for some reason I will give the feathers a chance.. Anyway just thought I would give this thread a shout, seems to be slowing down and we need to keep it rolling..


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## Rockyhud

******, you must have been reading my mind. I've been seriously considering the 150 Stinger and the 3gpi weight tube. I also bought a Gold Tip weight wrench and a dozen each 20 and 50 grain Gold Tip weight screws for testing and eventual final solution. I got these from Jons Archery - best price in including shipping I could find on these items.

I'm also strongly considering buying a target point test kit from 3 Rivers Archery that includes 2 each 100, 125, 145, 175, 200 and 250 grain tips. They also have the weight tubes in 3, 5, and 8 gpi varieties. With all various weight tips, insert weights and possibly tubes I should be able to get my arrow weight and increased FOC dialed in nicely. Has anyone heard anything definitive on whether these weight tubes affect spine much? From the reviews on 3 Rivers product review page most seem to think not, just adding weight.


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## Whitey375

Casey, I just went out and remeasured. I apologize for misrepresenting, you are correct that I was wrong. I think that the numbers came from when I stuck feathers on them. My arrows are 29". With the wrap and 3 Blazers and the 130 grain Magnus I get the balance point 5.22" ahead of the center, which gives a FOC of 18.0% with a total front end weight of 197 grains. However, I screwed a 150 grain Magnus on there and the balanced point moved to 5.72" ahead of the balance point for a FOC of 19.7% with a front end weight of 216 grains. 

Again, I apologize for any misleading info that I may have given.

Rocky, I have not heard of any case where weight tubes effected the spine at all, but then again I haven't heard anything definative to disagree either. It makes sense that if the weight is distributed evenly through the length of the shaft, and not concentrated on one spot, that spine should be unaffected. The target point test kit sounds fun, just as long as you know what the weight limit is for the shafts you are using.


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## Aggieland

No problem bro.. I was just playing around measuring my foc etc and I was getting less than what you were and thought what the heck lol.. The Gold Tip FOC calculator is auctually pretty close if you try it.. Honestly 18% is pretty sweet but im still shooting for that 19+% lol..


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## Whitey375

I like to use my own calculator. So what are your arrows set up like exactly?


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## mikajay

Rocky, 

in Roy Marlows "Timeless Bowhunting" theres a notion about shaft weight affecting spine.The added weight should alter the recovery characteristics, the way shaft bends, oscillates on launch and flight.Heavier mass would make the same static spine arrow act somewhat less, stiffer, than a lighter, same static spined arrow, so their dynamic spine would be different.

I used to use nylon rope for added weight but didnt like the results.Tubes might work better if they dont blow your nocks out.Increasin tipweight is the way to go imho, but ofcourse that requires either shorter or a new set of stiffer arrows.

Stiffer arrows with a heavier point, tuned to shoot from the same bow, would give another theorethical advantage apart the benefits of increased Foc, since the amount of bending when hitting bone or anything greatly affects penetration.

Other things being equal, stiffer arrow directs the same energy forward better.

The slo motion vids on Limbsavers site are real eye openers.


r.mika


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> I like to use my own calculator. So what are your arrows set up like exactly?[/QUOTE
> 
> This is what I have so far.. "I'm waiting on my incert weights to arrive" Ok, AMG shaft length from the taper of the fieldpoint to the throat of the nock is 27" using 3 boheing shield cut X vanes 10.5g and a 175g fieldtip with the 9.1 g incert.. Im getting a total of 17.59% FOC.. If I use the 2" feathers the FOC changes to 18.51% Since I dont have my incert weights I balanced a dime on the fieldtip "35grains" that changed the FOC to over 20%.. So it lookes like im going to have to add at least 20grains to the incert to get over 19% Pretty crazy stuff lol.


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## TREBORYERF

I shoot cx maxima 350 with weight forward 29.5" arrow with a 50grn brass insert and 125 grn point on the front end with blazers and blazer wraps on the nock end and I get great flight and penetration from this set-up.I believe my foc is around 16%,I wanted to add more weight on the front end but was concerned with making the spine too weak,may go to feathers for more foc.


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## Whitey375

Casey, How are you getting so little FOC with those numbers? Are you doing the math yourself, or using an online calculator? Also FOC increases more quickly, grain for percentage, with head weight. Have you talked to the man yet? I think I am going to go ahead and back off the front weight until I have a chance to talk to him again, just to be sure. However I am not really worried, as even the companies I asked that *weren't* into it said 225 on the end is the max for a .300 spine arrow out of a 6" BH 350 IBO bow when drawing 29-29.5" with a 29" arrow. What is the IBO on your bow again?

TREBORYERF, What sort of bow at what poundage are you shooting those out of? With the same arrow, a half inch shorter, and without the brass insert, I was at 14% last year. Also, to be perfectly honest with you, if you are getting bullet holes through paper and acceptable to your level of accuracy down range, I wouldn't change anything.


----------



## Whitey375

Casey, How are you getting so little FOC with those numbers? Are you doing the math yourself, or using an online calculator? Also FOC increases more quickly, grain for percentage, with head weight. Have you talked to the man yet? I think I am going to go ahead and back off the front weight until I have a chance to talk to him again, just to be sure. However I am not really worried, as even the companies I asked that *weren't* into it said 225 on the end is the max for a .300 spine arrow out of a 6" BH 350 IBO bow when drawing 29-29.5" with a 29" arrow. What is the IBO on your bow again?

TREBORYERF, What sort of bow at what poundage are you shooting those out of? With the same arrow, a half inch shorter, and without the brass insert, I was at 14% last year. Also, to be perfectly honest with you, if you are getting bullet holes through paper and acceptable to your level of accuracy down range, I wouldn't change anything.


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## Aggieland

(1) Measure shaft length; bottom of the nock’s throat to the
most rearward portion of the broadhead taper.
(2) With tip mounted, determine the balance point by balancing
the arrow on a knife edge. Mark this balance point.
(3) Measure balance point distance; from the bottom of the
knock’s throat to the balance point.
(4) Divide balance point distance by shaft length. This gives
the decimal equivalent of the balance point’s percentage
relative to shaft length.
(5) From this quotient subtract 0.50, the decimal equivalent
of 50%.
(6) Convert the resultant decimal fraction to percent by
multiplying by 100 (or simply moving the decimal point two
places to the right). This gives the percent FOC.

This is how Dr. Asby figures FOC. There are two different formulas, I know the guy at AMG says he does it a different way but with all of the penetration test done Asby used this formula..


----------



## bonehed67

Great thread guys! I have been thinking about experimenting with FOC to try and improve my long range consistency and all of your input is greatly appreciated. I generally shoot around 425 grains for hunting Whitetails but am thinking about going heavier this year. I bought a 70# Axe6 recently and have a 30in draw. I am not wanting to try and get as high as some of you(19-20%), but I definitely want to increase from the 10% that I have typically shot. I was thinking of going to 125 grn heads and insert weights and seeing what results I come up with. Anyway, thanx for all of your research and sharing, It is info like this that keeps me coming back to AT.


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## Aggieland

bonehed67 said:


> Great thread guys! I have been thinking about experimenting with FOC to try and improve my long range consistency and all of your input is greatly appreciated. I generally shoot around 425 grains for hunting Whitetails but am thinking about going heavier this year. I bought a 70# Axe6 recently and have a 30in draw. I am not wanting to try and get as high as some of you(19-20%), but I definitely want to increase from the 10% that I have typically shot. I was thinking of going to 125 grn heads and insert weights and seeing what results I come up with. Anyway, thanx for all of your research and sharing, It is info like this that keeps me coming back to AT.


Can't argue with that, I believe if your going for better flight and not all out penetration I would try and get at least 15-17% foc


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## bonehed67

Aggieland said:


> Can't argue with that, I believe if your going for better flight and not all out penetration I would try and get at least 15-17% foc


I have never had any issues with penetration, just wanting to see if I can get more consistent groups at longer distances. I have read some articles on increasing FOC, and it sounds loke the way to go.


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## wyetterp

You all have done a lot of work. Very interesting & thanks. 

Has anyone played around w/trophy ridge's crush line. I know they're tapered inside.


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## ozbillb

I just ordered some Carbon Impact FAT Yellow 6500 shafts to give them a go with high FOC.

.350" spine, will be 28" with a 50gr insert, 145gr points & 5gr blazers on the blunt end.
That should be just >19% FOC on a 446gr shaft.
Should hopefully fly well 

If you're looking for cheap weight tubes for arrows the rubber spline for holding flyscreen in windows works well.

Also does anyone know of heavy weight inserts (preferably 50gr) that fit Easton Epics?


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## hoyt_archer1

im into extreme foc and the more i read this thread i want to give it a try
hopefully you guys can help
im shooting athens exceed 27/70
arrow length is 26"
i need an arrow that is between 400 and 425gr
with at least 15% foc and i will be using 150gr magnus 2 blades
thanks for the input and recommendations


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## bullfisher

Wow dudes!! havn't been on here in a while been kinda busy. Didn't expect such a great thread outta this. lotsa helpful info in here ****** and aggieland are really doing thier homework nice work guys! I havn't ordered my victory hv's yet. Im planning on a 27.5'' HV (6.9 grns) and a 125 with a 50grn brass add a weight. for a 410grn fished weight. havn't calced the foc yet but it should be pretty sweet. And the guys at victory are pretty helpful and encouraging and have tested the 300.to 400grn point weight:thumbs_up. As for you hoyt archer Id look into a carbon tech cheetah shaft. Should put you at 400 even with well over 15%


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## Whitey375

ozbillb, The PDP insert weights that I mentioned on about page 5 or so, fit the Epic sized shaft as well as ACC's, they take the same Hp insert size.

wyetterp, I have not played with the Trophy Ridge line, but I did call them in my "quest for FOC", lol. They did say something about not very many manufacturers' weights fitting due to their oddball insert/outserts and the proprietary I.D. If the I.D. of your arrows is larger than .20" then I would give the Easton Dangerous Game HIT inserts a try. What I have done is with a field point screwed into the insert, take an 8-32 allen head set screw and thread it into the back of your insert until it touches the back of the field points' threads and back it off 1/4 turn. Then screw on the DG insert until it is tight with the back of the insert. After you have dry-fitted it to the arrow and have achieved the FOC you are after take it all back apart and epoxy it all together then assemble the arrow. Time consuming yes, but I am not sure of any other way to do it.

bullfisher, Hey man you started it,lol.


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## wyetterp

Whitey375 said:


> ozbillb, The PDP insert weights that I mentioned on about page 5 or so, fit the Epic sized shaft as well as ACC's, they take the same Hp insert size.
> 
> wyetterp, I have not played with the Trophy Ridge line, but I did call them in my "quest for FOC", lol. They did say something about not very many manufacturers' weights fitting due to their oddball insert/outserts and the proprietary I.D. If the I.D. of your arrows is larger than .20" then I would give the Easton Dangerous Game HIT inserts a try. What I have done is with a field point screwed into the insert, take an 8-32 allen head set screw and thread it into the back of your insert until it touches the back of the field points' threads and back it off 1/4 turn. Then screw on the DG insert until it is tight with the back of the insert. After you have dry-fitted it to the arrow and have achieved the FOC you are after take it all back apart and epoxy it all together then assemble the arrow. Time consuming yes, but I am not sure of any other way to do it.
> 
> bullfisher, Hey man you started it,lol.


Wow! Thanks for the scoop. I used the alaska bowhunter system to measure the foc of my crush's. They are 400's @ 28" (tip included) w/no fletching yet. Just the insert TR provides (21gr) & 100gr tip, & 8.5gr beiter nocks. They are @ 14% foc. I figure if I get some 125-150gr heads that should run me up to EFOC, I'm hoping, & be about 413gr for the 125gr head & 438gr w/the 150gr head. You all have me leaning now more towards the 150gr. From what I see I don't think I'll need any inserts. 

I shooting a XT @28"/70lbs. My old arrows are maxima hunter 250's (360gr total) & I was getting 288fps. By the way, I'm getting a better foc w/the crush's vs. the maxima hunters. Must be the taper. I have no clue what speed I'll get out of the 438gr's. 

Can't wait to get this set up & chrono'd to figure the #'s, & shoot them side by side. 

Thanks for the tips!!!!:77:


----------



## Whitey375

Once you set it up shoot them for accuracy 20 yards further than you would take a shot at live game and compare. I think you'll be pleasantly suprised.


----------



## ozbillb

Thankyou!
Most appreciated


----------



## Aggieland

Well fellas, I'm going to have to put my FOC arrow building on hold for a few days. Our baby is due in early April but my wife started going into labor. So were in the hospital for a few days. Keep the thread rolling, best thread I have been on in a long time! Pray for us and shoot straight!!!


----------



## mikajay

All the best to you and your family Aggie.

r.mika


----------



## Rockyhud

Aggie, take care of your family matter first. Good luck to you, your wife and new child. We'll be here when you get back online.

On topic, I ordered a dozen each 20 and 50 grain Gold Tip screw-in weights and the weight wrench from Little Jons Archery and the target point test kit, a dozen 3-gpi weight tubes and a grain scale from 3Rivers in a past few days.

Hopefully the cold and snowy weather will move out of here about the same time these things arrive so I can start my arrow rebuilding project and shoot outside to test the different setups. I won't be able to provide any speed data as I don't have a chronograph yet but I can provide weight and FOC data as I work through the possible options and provide updates on what works best for me (and hopefully for others).


----------



## Aggieland

Rocky, sounds like you got it going on bro. Can't wait to see what you cook up with all that stuff! I have my blackberry at the hospital lol shhhh. Gatta check in every now and them.


----------



## 5MilesBack

I've been playing around with my Victory HV1 300's a bit. When I throw a 200gr point on the end I get a 465gr arrow with 19.7% FOC. And interestingly enough......it is getting much better penetration through my Block target than even heavier arrows with less FOC. However, this arrow with high FOC and the 200gr point DOES hit lower than my heavier arrows with less FOC.

My arrow is 30.5" with 3.13" QS's as fletching (which weigh 25gr for three).


----------



## wyetterp

Aggieland said:


> Well fellas, I'm going to have to put my FOC arrow building on hold for a few days. Our baby is due in early April but my wife started going into labor. So were in the hospital for a few days. Keep the thread rolling, best thread I have been on in a long time! Pray for us and shoot straight!!!


Good luck. Hope ever thing turns out well!


----------



## Rockyhud

5MileBack, how much lower was the point of impact with the high FOC arrow than one weighing the same but with lower FOC? And what distance(s) were you shooting?


----------



## chip shot

EnglishKev said:


> I shoot just over 20%.
> They tune well and fly even better.
> I am currently building a couple of arrows to test the 'high FOC drops faster' theory.
> So, two arrows, identical length, spine and weight, same fletching, one high FOC, one low FOC.
> I will post the results over the weekend (weather permitting).
> 
> Kev


good post man


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## Aggieland

I'm just guessing here but that really high foc arrow might have been hitting low due to it having its spine to weak and loosing some energy transfer. But I'm not the best at solving riddles of this nature.


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## gjarcher

Aggieland said:


> ... I have noticed that as my arrow weight increases on a Kenetic Energy calculator the KE increases up to a certain point.. Then as the arrow weight increases and the speed drops the KE begins to drop down as well...


That's a flaw in the calculator. *The KE does not drop off*. The energy stored in the bow is stored at the time of drawing the bow, regardless of arrow weight. When the stored energy is transferred, what energy (KE) doesn't go into the arrow gets wasted as friction/heat or vibration/noise. The heavier the arrow, the more efficient the energy transfer, less wasted energy as vibration/noise, thus the quieter the bow. 

If the KE of the arrow peaked then went down as the arrow got heavier, that would mean after a certain point, heavy arrows would make the bow noisier ... and we know that doesn't happen.

I hunt Elk mostly using a 270 fps 492 gr 14.7% FOC carbon-aluminum shaft with 1-3/16" fixed-blade. Out of 5 bulls from 27 yds to 38 yds only one wasn't a pass through, and that was a quartering away shot with 24" of shaft buried in him.


----------



## 5MilesBack

Rockyhud said:


> 5MileBack, how much lower was the point of impact with the high FOC arrow than one weighing the same but with lower FOC? And what distance(s) were you shooting?


The closest I could get in terms of weight were a 469gr Axis 300 with 100gr tips, and my HV1 300 at 465gr with 200gr tips. They were hitting 4-6" lower at 40 yards. I was shooting in the snow, so I didn't do what I would consider a detailed test, just a few shots with each differently weighted heads.

I also shot the HV1's with a 145gr tip at 410gr and 15.2% FOC against my Maxima Hunter 350's at 420gr and the HV1's still hit well below the Maxima's. And the Maxima's are a .337 spine. So I don't think that spine differences with the 200gr point explains the drop difference.


----------



## Bowhuntertim

Wow, this thread has all the information I have spent the past several days looking for. I've posted on a couple other sites about trying to get really high FOC with lighter-mid weight shafts and everybody seems to think I'm crazy. It's nice to see either I'm not crazy or there are others like me .

Someone mentioned earlier CX is coming out with a Max 450. Well, Keystone Country Store has them in stock already. I'm thinking of using that shaft as they are known for extremely good spine and weight tolerances. I've been crunching some numbers and I plan to use the CX Max Hunter 450 shaft with either a 50 or 75 grain brass insert, 125 grain Slick Tricks, and Blazer vanes. I'm still torn between using a lighted nock or not. I would have a little over 16% with the 50 grain insert with standard nock and a little over 14% with lighted nock.

I'm shooting a 70 lb Switchback XT at a 30" draw with 29" shafts. Can anyone tell me how much weight I could put on the end of a CX 450 before I would start having spine issues?


----------



## Whitey375

When I talked to Carbon Express about them in January, they said 225-250 grains would be out of line out of a Monster 6/ Destroyer 350 type of bow at 29.5" and 70#. So I think you would be pleanty safe with a SBXT. If it is high FOC that you are after, then ditch the lighted nocks, but then again the only way to find out what shoots best in your set up is to build 3 one way and 3 the other and test them.


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## Bowhuntertim

Thanks ******, it sounds like I can go as crazy as I want then within reason. I know the lighted nocks are definitely a trade off when it comes to FOC but in low light hunting situations they offer a really big advantage in arrow recovery and making decisions on when to start tracking. I guess I'll just have to see what the difference in accuracy is and decide from there because accuracy is paramount.


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## mikajay

5Miles,

you mentioned the heavier low Focs flew higher than lighter high Foc ones

I dont know the arrows youre using, but could they have either different diameter or nocks or both?It wouldt take much thicker arrow or/and beefier nock for the arrow to point and shoot higher than another slimmer one.Just guessing..

r.mika


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## Bowhuntertim

Do any of you guys know what the difference is between the type 1 and type 2 CX inserts? It says the Max 450's will need a type 2 insert. The brass inserts I've found only list one size for CX. Anyone have any info on this? Thanks.


----------



## Paul Morris

white.greg said:


> Another thing to consider when calculating FOC is the effective lever arm of the arrow. The effective lever arm = distance from center of mass of vanes to center of mass of the arrow, the balancing point of the arrow. This distance decides how effective your vanes will be.
> 
> Here is a simple example with one of my old arrows.
> 
> 
> 125gr tip, regular 4" plastic vanes, set 1" back from nock, 12gr nock
> - FOC = 12.33, effective lever arm = 15.90"
> 
> 125gr tip, regular 4" plastic vanes, set 0" back from nock, 12gr nock
> - FOC = 12.13, effective lever arm = 16.85"
> 
> 125gr tip, FOB, 12gr nock
> - FOC = 11.81, effective lever arm = 18.25"
> 
> So even though a FOB decreases the arrow's FOC, it actually increases the effective lever arm because it's center of mass is .25" behind the arrow shaft as opposed to 2.25" in front for a standard 4" plastic vane.
> 
> Now if you switch to a 5gr "Tune a noc", 2" Razyr feathers set all the way back and a tapered shaft, the effect of the FOB is decreased, but should be looked at.





Aggieland said:


> So would placing the vanes or feathers closer to the nock be better ? I get what your saying but your math is better than mine..


The "lever arm" effect is a great name for it. The farther away from the CG the stabilizer is, the more bang for the buck. When the FOB was created, I new the most efficient location would be back as far as possible.


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## Whitey375

Casey, DO NOT SHOOT YOUR ARROWS!!

Ok, I just called Allied again and spoke to Roger, to say I am in a "let down fog" is an understatement. So apparently if I decide to use my setup I will probably be in an underspined condition. He said that I need to papertune with broadheads and flight test while incrimentally raising the poundage on my bow to arrive at a maximum point weight/draw weight apex. He said that I shouldn't just throw a bunch of weight on the front just to acheive FOC numbers. He also disagrees with the whole AMO standard of FOC measurements, going on to state that the optimal balance of an arrow is at most a 70/30 split and would be better at 60/40. According to him an arrow that balances at 10% FOC using the AMO standard, is actually 20% FOC. It had something to do with the calculation of the AMO way being 50% off. Really I don't know what do to now, thank GOD I didn't buy those other dozen shafts from the guy I know yet. I told him that I had it set at 63 pounds right now and he said I would probably be OK with the heavy insert/broadhead combo, but when I crank it to 71# that I would almost definately be underspined. Time to get back on the phone and do some more talking to other arrow manufacturers.........


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## Whitey375

Tim I think that you would be better served with using the standard CX insert and the Gold Tip screw in weights, they are cheap near me ($9 for 12) of either the 20 or 50 grain size.


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## Bowhuntertim

How exactly do the weights work? Do you screw them in before installing the inserts or do they glue in behind? Are there different sizes for different size shafts? Thanks alot.


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## bagel77

Okay guys I love this thread. I have a couple of questions. Now I know ****** you said you had talked to Victory and if I remember correctly they said 200-225. Now according to the sizing chart 70# 28 arrow I should be shooting a 350 arrow. I have been running some # on gold tip FOC calc. HV V1 arrow 28in. with a fob, thill light, and 225 grain out front I get 19.65 FOC. Giving me a total weight of 454 grains. My question is at what point would I need to go to the stiffer spine? I mean I don't plan on going over 225 actually I think I would be around 200.(save a little weight) Thanks for any info.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Casey, DO NOT SHOOT YOUR ARROWS!!
> 
> Ok, I just called Allied again and spoke to Roger, to say I am in a "let down fog" is an understatement. So apparently if I decide to use my setup I will probably be in an underspined condition. He said that I need to papertune with broadheads and flight test while incrimentally raising the poundage on my bow to arrive at a maximum point weight/draw weight apex. He said that I shouldn't just throw a bunch of weight on the front just to acheive FOC numbers. He also disagrees with the whole AMO standard of FOC measurements, going on to state that the optimal balance of an arrow is at most a 70/30 split and would be better at 60/40. According to him an arrow that balances at 10% FOC using the AMO standard, is actually 20% FOC. It had something to do with the calculation of the AMO way being 50% off. Really I don't know what do to now, thank GOD I didn't buy those other dozen shafts from the guy I know yet. I told him that I had it set at 63 pounds right now and he said I would probably be OK with the heavy insert/broadhead combo, but when I crank it to 71# that I would almost definately be underspined. Time to get back on the phone and do some more talking to other arrow manufacturers.........


So Is he saying these arrows wont handle the weight were wanting to put up front? Just looking and flexing the shafts I they appear they would handle the weight im wanting to use.. If he dosent think they will then these shafts are pretty much junk. But I think at 25.5" they could handle lots of weight. Im almost ready to just get some of the Alaska bowhunter shafts and roll with it.. I hope I didnt just blow $140.00 on some shafts I cant use..


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## 5MilesBack

CherryJuice ran my setup through TAP, and according to TAP I would need a .22? spine to shoot my 210gr Silverflame on the end. Hmmmmm........I guess these HV1 300's just aren't going to be able to handle it. I knew I was going to have a problem trying to get EFOC *AND* the correct spine at the same time. The only guys that will ever be able to get both right at the same time is someone that is normally using a .500 spine arrow, but gets a .300 spine to use the heavy weight up front.


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## Whitey375

Tim, they just thread into the back of the insert, you can get a 36" allen wrench to do it from the nock end or just screw them in before you put them together. Don't super glue it until you get flight that you are looking for, use a low temp hot melt adhesive and only shoot them into a bag type target. Once you get them right, just epoxy or glue them in so they don't slip.

Bagel, Typically you'll get better broadhead flight with a slightly stiffer spine anyways, plus you are so light anyways that you aren't going to hurt yourself going stiffer. Better safe than sorry anyway.

Casey, he said they are a .300 spine arrow(averaged out over the length of the shaft; .280 in the back 1 1/2" and .310 up front). I told him what you were planning to do and he about spit. I did tell him that you were going to use a 26 or 27" arrow, sorry. Put it this way, I was shooting today quite a bit and the heavy insert shafts I made shot right down the middle with everything else. But when I put the 130 grain broadheads on I shot a foot and a half to the right. After digging it out of the fence, I unscrewed them immediately. Then I took the standardly built shafts, no extra insert weight, and screwed a 150 grain head on and it shot about 6" to the right. Then I called him. He stated that the reason for building these shafts was because they had dealers setting up their customers' bows and only being able to get good broadhead flight with a heavier spined shaft, therefore heavier overall weight and the customers' were butt hurt because they lost their speed. So he brought out these shafts to make a lightweight .300 spine arrows that recover really quickly out of the bow. It's almost like he might as well have said, "You know all the stuff I told you before? Ya well I lied. These are arrows for guys who want to shoot 100 to 125 grain heads and have good paper tuning". To say that I am a bit miffed is an understatement, fortunately I only bought 6. I am almost ready to go buy a bunch of CX Maxima Hunters, throw some 125's on them and be like everybody else.


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## Aggieland

I have heard that TAP which I own does not work well on spine issues. Expecially if you cut much of the shaft off your arrows.. 

So you tried your arrows and they were to weak on spine??? And they are supposed to be a .300 spine??? If they are a .300 spine and I cut them down to 25.5" they should handle almost anything I put on the front end.. Like I said before its going to suck if these shafts dont work for me.. But if they dont......... Hmm im considering talking to Alaska Bowhunting Supply and figure out what will work for me.. I dont want 600-1000 grain arrows heck 500 grains is plenty for me.. I guess I will try these arrows when I get all my weights etc and see how they handel compared to what I already have laying around here.. I talked to the same guy a while back before ordering my shafts and he gave me the run around but the guy I ended up buying these shafts from said they would have no problem handeling it.. guess we will see or I will have anouther thread about how I put a shaft through my hand.. :mg:


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## Rockyhud

Tim,
I bought a Gold Tip weight wrench from Little Jons Archery (http://www.littlejons.com/). If I recall it was $6.99 or something close. Like ****** said, it's basically a long Allen wrench so you can screw the weights into the back of the tip insert from the nock end, but it also has a "T" handle in the end to help apply a little torque to seat the weight snug. The site also has the different weights available and pretty decent shipping costs.

BTW, I received my 3-gpi weight tubes from 3Rivers today along with the grain scale. I checked each of the uncut tubes weight and all but one were right at 100 grains +/- 1 grain. The one that was off was about 95 grains. I haven't checked the length of all yet so its possible it was a tad short. I ran a couple of them inside a couple of CX Maxima 350 shafts and they fit like a glove - there's no need to pinch any to keep them tight against the inside. Now all I need is for my target point test kit, Gold Tip weights and wrench to arrive (and good weather too) so I can start the grand experiment.


----------



## Whitey375

That is what I thought when I shot them, impact to the right is weak spine and to the left is stiff spine, right? The thing is though, you are shooting arrows that are 3.5" shorter than mine, should be safe, but definately start slow. Man this is depressing.... like you said might have to shoot stuff from ABH, but I am not sure if their lightweight shaft is spined for my bow and I don't want to shoot 650+ grains. Not to mention their arrows are frickin expensive.


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## Bowhuntertim

So the weights will just screw in the back of a standard CX insert? Are the dimensions compatible with CX shafts? This does sound like a more appealing option as it would be much more adjustable. I'm a little concerned about being underspined even with the Max 450's with all that weight on the end.


----------



## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> That is what I thought when I shot them, impact to the right is weak spine and to the left is stiff spine, right? The thing is though, you are shooting arrows that are 3.5" shorter than mine, should be safe, but definately start slow. Man this is depressing.... like you said might have to shoot stuff from ABH, but I am not sure if their lightweight shaft is spined for my bow and I don't want to shoot 650+ grains. Not to mention their arrows are frickin expensive.


Ok what exzactly did you have on the front end? weight wise anyway and what length arrow were you shooting? I can't believe these arrows at 28" would not handle at least 200 grains on the front end.. Heck if they were .300 spine at 32" then heck at 28" and expecially at 25.5" they should be like a .250 spine or more. Ya got me scared mine may not work either.. But hey If mine work great for me for some reason and if yours for sure wont work... "I might take yours off your hands for ya" Then you wont loose all your money :teeth: Keep me posted on how what all your seeing and when I get my testing rolling along I will keep ya posted on how it works for me. Im really hoping it works if not were both out some $$$$$$$


----------



## Aggieland

One more thing ******, When i was at the ATA show I talked with the ABS guys a lot and I think they might be coming out with something that would work for what were trying to do.. But It might not be soon, Also you might look into the Carbon Tech Panther shafts but they look very much like the AMG shafts we have.. Next move would be Victory HV's.. Man you would think someone would make a shaft that would do what were wanting.. What would be really sweet is if Victory would make a really really stiff Nano shaft. I looked at these shafts at the ata show and talked to some that have used them, everyone really liked the shafts.. They just need a .300 or .250 spine that would be something I could make something crazy out of lol..


----------



## Aggieland

the kicker to all this is you have to have a really stiff spine to handle the weight on the front of the shaft.. But at the same time the lighter the shaft GPI the more it increases FOC.. Something like the Easton FMJ which i thought was a great shaft would be sweet but heck at 10 or 11 gpi there is no way you can get the FOC to 19% or anywhere close without the arrow weighing 500g+... I feel An arrow weighing 400-500 is the best setup for almost any North American animal. And lets not kid outselves at this point in the game we still want to keep out speed up as much as possible to help with range estimation.. We need an arrow that weights around 8 gpi that has a spine of .300 or less that has a really small outside dia........ Oh and it has to be really tuff .......... Come on arrow makers build us one 

And for an update were home and still expecting.. Baby should be coming within the week.. :teeth: :mg:


----------



## Whitey375

Tim, Yes they are compatible, I have some in the garage I was playing with today. The standard is an 8-32 thread. They are a snug fit, but they'll screw right into the back of the insert and push right into the shaft. When trying different combos, you usually need a pair of pliers to get enough of a hold on the field tip to pull them out. Also please call them, always better to talk to the folks who made them than anyone else. I always use a couple of "baiting" questions to figure out if the person or "tech" that I am talking to knows what they are talking about or if they are just there to answer the phone.

Casey, Well the ones that impacted a foot off were the 67 grain insert combo and 130 grain Magnus. The ones that were better but still to the right, were the standard inserts (9+/- grains) and a 150 grain Magnus. So 160 grains or so. But the thing I don't get is the ones with the heavy inserts I shot with a 150 grain field point and they were dead center. Actually all the arrows that I shot with field points through that Destroyer today were in a big vertical line dead center and that was with everything from .400 spine Axis to the AMG's, Axis 300's with the 75 grain insert and points from 75 to 125 grains, some 340 Axis FMJ's, Gold Tip UL300's with 100's and 125's. I just don't get it. By the way my shafts are 29" and I am drawing 29.5". The crazy thing is, is that they were showing under spine today at 63#, what would have happened at almost 72# when I bottom it out for hunting?? By the way congrats on the baby, good times, lol.


----------



## Aggieland

Hmm, guess its not an issue with broadhead tuning right? IT does seem strange we need a pro tuner here to discuss your problem with.. Maybe we can get one to drop us a few hints..


----------



## RedSunrise

*Great thread*

Great work guys. very nice & interesting post, thnx.

I've been doing some research as what arrows would be best for me. I have africa in mind for hunting, because the netherlands prohibits bowhunting. When outdoor season starts I'll be working up from 70 to 80# on my '06 tribby, having time to work on my form and select the best arrows. My problem is finding a suitable spine for my 29.5" draw. I'd like 2 weights; one around 500-600gr and one around 700-800gr. 
For the first arrow: Beman mfx 300, 150gr head, 4 mini blazers (depending on wich program u use) 13- 14%foc. 520gr total; Too Weak spine!?
For the second arrow: Easton DG FMJ 250, 50gr insert, 150gr head, 4 mini's, total weight 700gr. Foc 12- 13 %. just enough spine!?
Can someone help me out upping my Foc to about 17- 19% & still give me enough spine. I've been reading on some information about the dynamic spine, can anyone give me insight into its affect on selecting an arrow?

Thanks in advance


----------



## bullfisher

RedSunrise said:


> Great work guys. very nice & interesting post, thnx.
> 
> I've been doing some research as what arrows would be best for me. I have africa in mind for hunting, because the netherlands prohibits bowhunting. When outdoor season starts I'll be working up from 70 to 80# on my '06 tribby, having time to work on my form and select the best arrows. My problem is finding a suitable spine for my 29.5" draw. I'd like 2 weights; one around 500-600gr and one around 700-800gr.
> For the first arrow: Beman mfx 300, 150gr head, 4 mini blazers (depending on wich program u use) 13- 14%foc. 520gr total; Too Weak spine!?
> For the second arrow: Easton DG FMJ 250, 50gr insert, 150gr head, 4 mini's, total weight 700gr. Foc 12- 13 %. just enough spine!?
> Can someone help me out upping my Foc to about 17- 19% & still give me enough spine. I've been reading on some information about the dynamic spine, can anyone give me insight into its affect on selecting an arrow?
> 
> Thanks in advance


If 29.5 is all you can shoot then achieving 19% foc with proper spine is definetly a little challenging I believe ****** is trying to shoot a longer EFOC arrow and could probably help you there more than I, but I believe an arrow stiffer than 300 is required and finding a light gpi arrow is hard. take a look at gold tips big game 100 or somthing the like


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## bagel77

anyone know what the GPI is on the ABS arrows? I went the website but couldn't find it.


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## Aggieland

bagel77 said:


> anyone know what the GPI is on the ABS arrows? I went the website but couldn't find it.


YEAH... the ones I got are the stiffer of the two shafts the 2830's.. They are 9.6 gpi.. incert weighs 9.1g and the nock weighs 6.7g..


----------



## wyetterp

wyetterp said:


> Wow! Thanks for the scoop. I used the alaska bowhunter system to measure the foc of my crush's. They are 400's @ 28" (tip included) w/no fletching yet. Just the insert TR provides (21gr) & 100gr tip, & 8.5gr beiter nocks. They are @ 14% foc. I figure if I get some 125-150gr heads that should run me up to EFOC, I'm hoping, & be about 413gr for the 125gr head & 438gr w/the 150gr head. You all have me leaning now more towards the 150gr. From what I see I don't think I'll need any inserts.
> 
> !:77:





Aggieland said:


> I feel An arrow weighing 400-500 is the best setup for almost any North American animal. And lets not kid outselves at this point in the game we still want to keep out speed up as much as possible to help with range estimation.. We need an arrow that weights around 8 gpi that has a spine of .300 or less that has a really small outside dia........ Oh and it has to be really tuff .......... Come on arrow makers build us one
> 
> And for an update were home and still expecting.. Baby should be coming within the week.. :teeth: :mg:


So, I put some 150gr tips on the crush's. Total arrow weight's 443gr, that's w/wraps & fusions. Foc =................18.468%. 

Has anyone talked w/TR about these? How much weight can I put on them?

So..... 8 gpi, less then .300, really small diameter, & tough. Now I got to find out what TR has to say about the up front weight.


----------



## Aggieland

Did you get your FOC from the asby formula? just looking at the setup it would seem your foc would be lower than 18% but I could be wrong..


----------



## RedSunrise

some food for the mind:

xxx . calameo . com 
Search for: bowhunter
Select the march 2009 edetion (with the tsessebe on the cover)
Read page 21-22 & 25 (Dynamic spine and heavy arrows)

Some great info by Harry Marx


----------



## wyetterp

Aggieland said:


> Did you get your FOC from the asby formula? just looking at the setup it would seem your foc would be lower than 18% but I could be wrong..



I believe so. I used the method that Alaska bowhunting page uses. Is this the same method as Dr. Asby's?


----------



## Aggieland

wyetterp said:


> I believe so. I used the method that Alaska bowhunting page uses. Is this the same method as Dr. Asby's?


Yeah thats the right one. Those shafts your using what are they like? Do that have a heavy incert or are they tapered somehow. You have a lot of weight on the back of the shaft compared to what im using and still have a really nice high FOC.. And your head weight is lighter just wondering what the shaft or incert has that helps get the Foc up there.. pretty sweet.. :thumbs_up


----------



## Aggieland

Well I went out and shot a few times this afternoon with the AMG shafts.. Now my bow has been bare shaft tuned by my dealer using a different arrow.. I shot my AMG shafts with a 100g head and a 175g head. " My incert weights have not come in yet" So this is what I get, 100g head shot a bullet hole the 175 had a 3-5" right tear.. So im guessing thats an under spined arrow??? Guess I have probably wasted my money on these shafts as well.. Hmm will do a little more trying around with these and if they dont work.... Then I will start looking again.. :angry:


----------



## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> Well I went out and shot a few times this afternoon with the AMG shafts.. Now my bow has been bare shaft tuned by my dealer using a different arrow.. I shot my AMG shafts with a 100g head and a 175g head. " My incert weights have not come in yet" So this is what I get, 100g head shot a bullet hole the 175 had a 3-5" right tear.. So im guessing thats an under spined arrow??? Guess I have probably wasted my money on these shafts as well.. Hmm will do a little more trying around with these and if they dont work.... Then I will start looking again.. :angry:


Better check that again aggie, a left tear usually indicates a weak spine. Unless your a lefty


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## Aggieland

Hmm, Well how in the heck am i getting a right tear with a heavier head? Im not a tuning pro so any help is greatly appericiated..!


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## bullfisher

Did you shoot thru paper enough with each tip to confirm its the tip? also whats the foc on both tips? I talked to steve from forge today and he claims his shafts are 15% foc raw shaft!! and almost 30% with a 100 grn tip. Have you looked into these?


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## Aggieland

Ok, its been awhile since I shot so im guessing my form was crap.. Went back and shot quite a few times. At 6 ft. both bare shafts were bullet holes when the shot felt good.. at 15-20 yds bare shafts had a 3" 10:00 tear .. so im guessing it was just me they are both bullet holes up close and have the same tear at 15 yds. and suggestions besides find someone that knows what their doing to help lol


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## bullfisher

Cool! get the bare shafts to shoot holes at 7-8 yards and group with fletched arrows at 20 and you can shoot just about any fixed blade you want. Dont forget to add electrical tape to the rear of your shaft until its the same wieght as your fletched arrows.


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## Aggieland

Im going back to shoot more.. will see how she does at 7 yds and report back:wink:


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## wyetterp

Aggieland said:


> Yeah thats the right one. Those shafts your using what are they like? Do that have a heavy incert or are they tapered somehow. You have a lot of weight on the back of the shaft compared to what im using and still have a really nice high FOC.. And your head weight is lighter just wondering what the shaft or incert has that helps get the Foc up there.. pretty sweet.. :thumbs_up



They seem nice to me. I haven't shot anything yet with them (was using maxima hunters). I'm not using any heavily weighted inserts, but the insert/outsert they use ways 21gr. 

They are tapered on the inside. The front end I.D. is .206 & the nock end I.D. is .201. This has to be why. I'm very surprised that even w/wraps & fusions they came out like this, but I ran the math 3 times & that's the #'s I get. 

Like I said prior, I compared the two shafts side by side (maxima hunter 250 & 400 crush), & the crush had a lot more foc bare. 

I'm going to do some shooting soon w/the 150gr heads to see how they come out. The only negative I can say about these shafts, is that they are a pain in the rear to get accessories, ie...beiter nocks (which the crush come with), inserts, & weight tubes if I wanted them. I'm not sure if it would be possible to get them up to 600-700gr. 

Oh yeah, always try to remember that a babies cry, is one most special sounds on earth! Good luck.


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## Aggieland

Thanks Wyetterp 

Ok, I went back and shot the shafts at 7yds. With the heavy tip shaft, I get a 6-8" tear around 10:00 I dont know what that means but the 100 g tipped shaft had a 2" tear in the same direction..


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## bullfisher

Pretty sure your strother is a hybrid with a split yoke?? If your rest seems to get maxed from trying to fix tears then its your form or you need to put some twists in a cable or in the case of the left tare twists in one side of the yoke. left tares indicate a weak spine, but you know thats not it with 100grn tip and a short arrow. Fix the high tear first and again, if it puts your arrow outta square to get it there then its either palm pressure, face pressure or you got some twistin to do.


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## hoyt_archer1

hey guys give me opinion
340 epic nfuse cut to 25.5"
inserts are 23gr
3- 3" aae plastifletch at 18.3gr
no wrap and nocks are 9-10 gr
topped off with a 150gr magnus stinger 2 blade
shot out of an athens exceed 27/70 at 275 fps
ran the #'s in ot2 it said spine was perfect and foc was 17%
the arrow set up would be 445 gr 
any thoughts


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## Aggieland

bullfisher said:


> Pretty sure your strother is a hybrid with a split yoke?? If your rest seems to get maxed from trying to fix tears then its your form or you need to put some twists in a cable or in the case of the left tare twists in one side of the yoke. left tares indicate a weak spine, but you know thats not it with 100grn tip and a short arrow. Fix the high tear first and again, if it puts your arrow outta square to get it there then its either palm pressure, face pressure or you got some twistin to do.


I affraid its a spine issue but im confused.. It was shooting bullet holes at 6 ft both arrows do.. At 7 yds the 100g tip is tearing just slightly "prob me" the 175g tip is tearing 6-8" at 10:00 so.. thats gatta be weak spine right?


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## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> I affraid its a spine issue but im confused.. It was shooting bullet holes at 6 ft both arrows do.. At 7 yds the 100g tip is tearing just slightly "prob me" the 175g tip is tearing 6-8" at 10:00 so.. thats gatta be weak spine right?


Its possible aggie but arent you shooting a pretty short arrow? I know your at 80lbs but even your 100 are tearing. Remember, at that distance from the paper bare shafts are gonna tadletale on ya. your are super tuning at that distance. And dont forget to tape your shafts, you can even add weight/tape to fine tune your spine back there. Remember you can add wieght there to increase spine! But I think you might need to do some fine tuning on your cams


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## Aggieland

Well the 100's are tearing very little maybe an inch or so. at 7 yds. the other is tearing like 8 inches.. big big difference.


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## bullfisher

hoyt_archer1 said:


> hey guys give me opinion
> 340 epic nfuse cut to 25.5"
> inserts are 23gr
> 3- 3" aae plastifletch at 18.3gr
> no wrap and nocks are 9-10 gr
> topped off with a 150gr magnus stinger 2 blade
> shot out of an athens exceed 27/70 at 275 fps
> ran the #'s in ot2 it said spine was perfect and foc was 17%
> the arrow set up would be 445 gr
> any thoughts


Keep us posted!


----------



## Rockyhud

Tim, I got my Gold Tip weights and weight wrench today. The wrench wasn't quite like pictured on the website (has a right angle short leg, not a T-handle) but no matter, it's still very usable. The weights are a slightly tight slip fit inside my CX Maxima 350 shafts. When removing weights I found I have to hold the shaft near the nock and tap the shaft against something like the edge of a table, doing this several times. Eventually the weight will slip toward the open nock end where you can finally see it. At this point I whipped the shaft one or two times quickly and it came out. Just make sure you don't fling the weight out when someone's nearby as it will come out fairly quickly and could bounce and hit someone.

Here's what I got for FOC figures, playing around with different weights. BTW my arrows are setup with the following. The only thing I changed in this scenario was the insert weight(s).

CX Maxima 350 - total weight as configured below is roughly 390 grains
29.125 inches from throat of nock to end of front insert.
Standard insert - 11 grains
100 grain target points
4 inch long wraps - 4 grains
3-each 2.1 inch Fusion vanes (8 grain each = 24 grains total)
Bull Dog nock collar - 3 grains
Accu-nock - 14 grains

The first combo I tried I added one 50 and one 20 grain weight. The FOC figured out to be 15.02. I then removed the 20 and added another 50. The FOC then figured out to be 16.95. The total arrow weight with the additional 70 grains weighed 466 grains. The arrow with the additional 100 grains weighed 497 grains.

I haven't had a chance to shoot any yet, plus I haven't received the target point test kit so I can REALLY play with the various weights, so I don't have any real world results to report other than the static weights and FOC figures above.

If these shafts can handle this weight and hopefully some more I could be real close to getting close to the 20% or more FOC goal and not have shafts that are too heavy but can be made heavier with the weight tubes. I'm guessing these weight tubes, when cut to length, will add around 83-84 grains, pushing the total weight to 549 to 580 with 100 grain tips. Put 150 grain tips/BH on and this goes up to about 600 to 630. This should be plenty of mass and hopefully produce a good, hard hitting big game arrow. I can't wait to get outside and shoot now.

Keep it coming guys. This is really good stuff.


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## Whitey375

Rocky, I am using the exact same arrow(only different fletchings and no wraps) as you are with a 50 grain insert weight and a 100 grain head and am getting 15.6% FOC, 446 grains, and 305fps out of the Destroyer. I have also built them just with the 150 grain head, a little better FOC, but only a few tenths. I have been getting bullet holes through paper with them and small groups a ways out there with broadheads.
Casey, if you can get your bow to shoot those AMG's, PM me and I send them to you. I am frickin done with this crap.


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## Tlariat

Here is a tip to get the GT weights out. Take out the head from the insert and the vacum effect is not nearly as bad.


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## skybolt

Tlariat said:


> Here is a tip to get the GT weights out. Take out the head from the insert and the vacum effect is not nearly as bad.


Then use compressed air to blow them out into a rag or whatever.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Rocky, I am using the exact same arrow(only different fletchings and no wraps) as you are with a 50 grain insert weight and a 100 grain head and am getting 15.6% FOC, 446 grains, and 305fps out of the Destroyer. I have also built them just with the 150 grain head, a little better FOC, but only a few tenths. I have been getting bullet holes through paper with them and small groups a ways out there with broadheads.
> Casey, if you can get your bow to shoot those AMG's, PM me and I send them to you. I am frickin done with this crap.


Your giving up on the dream..?? I know what ya mean, I plan for all this to work but im already having problems maybe my setup will work.. keep ya posted..


----------



## buckzilla

*foc*

Interesting read guys. Iam trying some victory hv 300 with a 85gr tip and 50grs added not sure of the #s yet just made my wrench to install the weights.


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## bagel77

what are the problems/disadvantages with being over spined?


----------



## Whitey375

Being slightly over spined will help out with broadheads. But being grossly overspined, like say shooting a .200 spine arrow that is packing an 85 grain head out of a 60# bow, you would play hell tuning it. Unless you were shooting those 300 grain Ashby heads on 31" shaft.

By the way, I was perusing the new Gold Tip catalog today, they make a lot of heavy spine arrows, like down to .150 spine, of course they are around 7.8gpi fat target shafts though. But their Big Game's are a .250 spine and 10.2 gpi, and they are cheap. I might have to pick up 3 and mess with them. Of course I find this out after getting the Maxima's to shoot bullet holes through paper at 7 yards and stack bare shafts right on top of fletched arrows at 20 yards today. GRRRRRRRR>>>>>>>>


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## Koorsboom

> they make a lot of heavy spine arrows, like down to .150 spine, of course they are around 7.8gpi fat target shafts though. But their Big Game's are a .250 spine and 10.2 gpi


In my quest for an ultra exreme FOC arrow I have now seem to have run into the "not stiff enough" barrier. 

Just some background again ... I wan to build an arrow with FOC of 30% or more and that weighs as close as possible to 650gr. Arrow length cannot be less than 27" on my bow/rest set-up (my DL is 29"). DW is between 75 and 80#.

The closest I got was with Victory arrows of .300 spine with about 450gr on the front of the arrow and 4"feathers on the back. The arrows are still a little on the weak side though and I thionk if I go to a .250 or even .200 spine arrow the problem shoudl be solved.

Now for my question ... is it realy that bad to shoot a fatter shaft in a hunting setup? I know what the theory says, but is that such a big issue?

I ahve sentout a numberof mails to manufacturers of tapered shafts, but I only got feedback from the guys at Alaska Archery.

Any advice please ...


----------



## bullfisher

Koorsboom said:


> In my quest for an ultra exreme FOC arrow I have now seem to have run into the "not stiff enough" barrier.
> 
> Just some background again ... I wan to build an arrow with FOC of 30% or more and that weighs as close as possible to 650gr. Arrow length cannot be less than 27" on my bow/rest set-up (my DL is 29"). DW is between 75 and 80#.
> 
> The closest I got was with Victory arrows of .300 spine with about 450gr on the front of the arrow and 4"feathers on the back. The arrows are still a little on the weak side though and I thionk if I go to a .250 or even .200 spine arrow the problem shoudl be solved.
> 
> Now for my question ... is it realy that bad to shoot a fatter shaft in a hunting setup? I know what the theory says, but is that such a big issue?
> 
> I ahve sentout a numberof mails to manufacturers of tapered shafts, but I only got feedback from the guys at Alaska Archery.
> 
> Any advice please ...


Steve at forge is good to talk to, he claims the slipstream arrow will reach almost 30% with a 100grn tip but doesnt recomend going over a 125 even though cutting from the smaller side of the arrow will give a 240 spine. and because of that you wont even reach 600 grns


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## Aggieland

Koorsboom said:


> In my quest for an ultra exreme FOC arrow I have now seem to have run into the "not stiff enough" barrier.
> 
> Just some background again ... I wan to build an arrow with FOC of 30% or more and that weighs as close as possible to 650gr. Arrow length cannot be less than 27" on my bow/rest set-up (my DL is 29"). DW is between 75 and 80#.
> 
> The closest I got was with Victory arrows of .300 spine with about 450gr on the front of the arrow and 4"feathers on the back. The arrows are still a little on the weak side though and I thionk if I go to a .250 or even .200 spine arrow the problem shoudl be solved.
> 
> Now for my question ... is it realy that bad to shoot a fatter shaft in a hunting setup? I know what the theory says, but is that such a big issue?
> 
> I ahve sentout a numberof mails to manufacturers of tapered shafts, but I only got feedback from the guys at Alaska Archery.
> 
> Any advice please ...



I would think that if your head cuts a hole large enough the larger shaft would not hurt your penetration that much. Expecially if you have EFOC like your talking.


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## rogbo

bullfisher said:


> Steve at forge is good to talk to, he claims the slipstream arrow will reach almost 30% with a 100grn tip but doesnt recomend going over a 125 even though cutting from the smaller side of the arrow will give a 240 spine. and because of that you wont even reach 600 grns


Having some interest in the slipstream arrows. do these arrows have a proprietary nock or do they use an easton sized nock? I'd be wanting to use axis fobs on the end.


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## Bowhuntertim

I'm still on the fence about what I'm going to do. I've definitely decided on the CX Maxima Hunter 450's. They are a .300 spine and since I'm on the border with a normally setup arrow that should allow me to stack a little more weight out front. 

I just can't decide whether to go with 50 grain brass inserts or screw in weights. I want to keep my arrows between 480 and 500 grains. I ran the numbers and with a 50 grain screw in weight I will get 494 grains at 29" with an FOC of 17.3%. If I go with a brass insert I will get 478 grains and 16.2% FOC. I'm afraid I will end up under spined with the 50 grain screw in weight. I also like the idea of the added strength the brass insert gives me but it isn't adjustable. I've also been thinking of cutting my arrows a half inch or so shorter to eek as much spine as I can. Grrr all these decisions to make and with arrows that are $150 a dozen I don't want to decide wrong!


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## bullfisher

rogbo said:


> Having some interest in the slipstream arrows. do these arrows have a proprietary nock or do they use an easton sized nock? I'd be wanting to use axis fobs on the end.


I think he said he's using G-nocks? and regular inserts your best bet is to call him or check the website. mention this thread. he seems to be familiar with it LOL.


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## Koorsboom

> I would think that if your head cuts a hole large enough the larger shaft would not hurt your penetration that much. Expecially if you have EFOC like your talking.


I also suspect that but was looking for some feedback from a few archers who has a bit more experience than I do ...


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## bullfisher

Koorsboom said:


> I also suspect that but was looking for some feedback from a few archers who has a bit more experience than I do ...


A giant shaft will be more inclined to wind drift, might inhibit vane contact and wont have the penetration of a smaller shaft.


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## rogbo

bullfisher said:


> A giant shaft will be more inclined to wind drift, might inhibit vane contact and wont have the penetration of a smaller shaft.


the Ashby studies have also dealt with the variable of shaft diameter and his findings were along this line as well.


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## Aggieland

I believe asby said if the size of the shaft was larger than where the broadhead attached to the incert it would not penetrate as well.


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## 77jimmy

One thing that has not really been discussed in this thread is one of the more important factors to penetration, the broad head you are using. The broad head mechanical advantage plays a huge roll in penetration according to Ashby. This also helps with the issues concerning KE vs momentum and why not only a good FOC is needed but a high arrow weight for maximizing penetration. This is noted in his work on Tissue Penetration Index or 

TPI = (Momentum*MA*Drag Factor). 

A 2 blade broad head has a decidedly higher MA than a 3 or 4 blade which will have more effect on your TPI than any slight changes to arrow speed or shaft drag. As long as you use an arrow diameter equal to or smaller than your broad head you can basically take that out of your things to worry about.

Momentum is mass*velocity 

So a small shift in arrow mass or speed does not greatly effect this and is usually offset by the other (i.e. mass goes up velocity goes down but not always in linear proportion). So the big thing that is left is the mechanical advantage of the thing doing the penetrating. To give you an example, my whitetail set up is a 462 grain arrow with a speed around 290 fps which produces a momentum of .59 and my shaft diameter is a hair smaller than my broad head so I have a drag factor of 1 (.9 for shafts equal to the broad head ferrule and .6 for a diameter greater). 

If I use a 3 blade Montec I have a MA of 1.185 so my TPI is .7 or (.5926*1.125*1) = .702

Now if I add 25 grains to this set up I get a decrease in speed to 284 and M of .609. This results in a TPI of .722

But if I switch to a 2 blade Stinger of the same weight which has a MA of 1.89 I get a TPI of 1.15!

To give a reference of TPI
1.5 shoots completely through the shoulder blade of a large zebra
1-1.27 5-8 inches past the sholder blade
.65 did not penetrate the shoulder blade

I know his is a lot to absorb but I guess what I am trying to say is FOC is part of the equation but keep in mind the arrow is simply a delivery system for the killing implement i.e. the broad head. 20 fps or 25 grains does not make a world of difference in the killing power of your set up. 

Also I have seen mention of the magic 650grain number and I would just like to add that this number was observed to show decidedly better bone cutting properties than set ups with less mass than that but keep in mind the testing was done on adult cape buffalo! With everything there are trade offs and compensating for the drop of a 650 grain arrow that is going to go through a deer and the tree behind it and then 6 inches into the ground may not be what you want to have to do for your set up. I personally believe a 450-500 grain set up with a TPI of around 1 and FOC of 12% or better will kill anything in North America save maybe a kodiak grizzly. Good luck!


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## Aggieland

Good post.. I just want to be sure to be able to blow through a bull elk at 80 yds if for some crazy reason that was the situation.. I could make the shot, just want to make sure my arrow could do its job at longer ranges.. Ok Ethics police get the cuffs out lol..


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## 77jimmy

Of course. You want to plan for that one time you don't make the perfect shot. . The great thing is I can put on a Ashby model 317 grain broad head and be at 654 grains and kill elephants or dump trucks or whatever.


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## bullfisher

Good post indeed! Aggieland you wont have any elk pass thru troubles with your setup. I shot a bull once at 55 yds with an 80# bow with 400grn arrows and upon release the bull whirled towards me and the arrow penetrated the vitals quartering to me. When we found him the arrow had passed thru almost the length of his body eccept the fletching. I passed through a bull 2 years ago with a 70# AM and a 390 grn arrow @ 30yds. My partner botched a shot one year on an extreme quartering away shot and entered the left azz ham and dead centered the heart 70# 420grn. Point is these extreme arrow setups arent neccesary. But if I can increase my flight charictaristics, penetration value, and arrow recovery on any arrow wieght just by moving the overall wieght of it forward, You bet your azz I'm gonna do it!


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## passinthrough12

I've been following this thread and I have learned alot about EFOC and its advantages, i was getting around 13% foc with my maximas with 100 gr points and the other night i switched to 125 gr tips and now am up to about 15 ish.
I'm about to buy s new set of arrows and am shooting for 18+. I just ordered some 50 gr inserts from Lancasters so it should be fun putting the new arrows together.


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## Aggieland

I have been playing around with my arrow setup. I have one of those old school cotton packed bag targets.. Well shooting at 7 yds is not cool because I had a 5 gallon bucket filled with water holding up the target and I shot through the bag and the bucket several times.. I am going to get some hands on help from a "Pro" soon on getting these arrows tuned up, I cant tell if my form is bad or what but with a 100g head i still get a slight 10:00 tear in paper and with the 175g heads im getting prob a 4" 10:00 tear.. with or without fletching at say 8 feet.. But I do believe the arrows will work fine, I just need to tune the bow to my shooting form or grip and not the guy that tuned it for me before I got her.. long story.. but you get the drift..


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## ozbillb

This is a good detailed summation of Dr Ashby's stuff
http://www.booneman.com/_terminalarrow.php


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## Bowhuntertim

Somebody talk me into either screw in weights or brass inserts. I keep flipping back and forth.


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## 77jimmy

Neither. Get either some 8/32 brass rod or 8/32 brass screws from depot and chop the head off. Take a hack saw and cut a slot in he top. Then you can screw it into your existing insert with a plain flat head screw driver. Leave enough room for your broad head. You may want to use some blue loc-tite just in case. You will want a grain scale to make sure you have the right weight. There you have a $1 insert you make whatever weight you want. For the longer rods I put a rubber o-ring on the end so it doesn't rattle.


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## Bowhuntertim

Anybody else use either one or a variation?


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## Whitey375

Casey, I(we) seem to have been chasing my tail with this paper tuning and I think I may have figured out why. Our bows are brand new, so are the cables and strings, I am thinking that they have just now finished stretching out. I may be having some cam lean as well, but I will find out on Monday. Reason being, is I was getting a weak spine tear with the rest straight down the middle, set at 65#, with a 28.5" Gold Tip Ultralight 300 with an 85 grain head. Also have been getting the same tear no matter which arrow I try. I am going to get everything checked out on Monday, and then if I still am not getting what I think I should after that I am not sure what to do. I have some ABS shafts coming after handling them at the OBH indoor this weekend, nice. The same guy was also a dealer for Strother bows. That SR-71 is one heck of a bow, can't wait until I buy one in November, maybe....


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## Whitey375

Tim, use the screw in weights, because then you can always change it around.


----------



## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Casey, I(we) seem to have been chasing my tail with this paper tuning and I think I may have figured out why. Our bows are brand new, so are the cables and strings, I am thinking that they have just now finished stretching out. I may be having some cam lean as well, but I will find out on Monday. Reason being, is I was getting a weak spine tear with the rest straight down the middle, set at 65#, with a 28.5" Gold Tip Ultralight 300 with an 85 grain head. Also have been getting the same tear no matter which arrow I try. I am going to get everything checked out on Monday, and then if I still am not getting what I think I should after that I am not sure what to do. I have some ABS shafts coming after handling them at the OBH indoor this weekend, nice. The same guy was also a dealer for Strother bows. That SR-71 is one heck of a bow, can't wait until I buy one in November, maybe....


Yes, the SR-71 is one sweet bow.. And I agree these shafts we have will work we just need to get the bows tuned to what were shooting. Will keep ya posted on how it works..


----------



## Rockyhud

I agree, go with the screw-in weights, just because you have the options to add or subtract the exact amount of weight you want without the customization required to make your own. Plus, the weight packs and weight wrench are not very expensive. I got a Gold Tip wrench, one pack of 20 and one pack of 50 grain weights from Little Jons Archery and the total cost including shipping was under $30.

Since I last posted I received target point test kit and have some new info to pass on. BTW, I was pleased to find the test points are quite accurate and consistent in their weights which certainly helps when testing the various weight and FOC options.

I decided to see what I could get with the 250 grain tip and 50 grain insert weight. Using my CX Maxima 350 shafts as detailed earlier, the total arrow weight was 597 grains and FOC calculated to be 24.49%. That's without using the 3-gpi weight tubes. I haven't shot this combo as I don't know if these shafts can handle that much forward weight safely, so I emailed Carbon Express, telling them I have a dozen of these and need to know the maximum tip weight these can handle given my bow setup. Basically this amount of tip weight equals what an Ashby tip weighs by itself (no insert weight as I currently have in place).

As soon as I get a reply I'll report back my findings.


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## Whitey375

I would say you are way over weight, especially given the fact the 350's are a .337 spine. When I talked to them I was given 150 grains as a max at 29" out of a 29.5" D350. I would say start with your normal set up and shoot it through paper, then add 20 grains at a time until your tear starts opening up. Or shoot with broadheads at 20 yards and add 20 grains until the POI starts shifting to the right instead of dropping more.


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## Bowhuntertim

I just got my Maxima Hunter 450's today. I'll get some 50 grain screw in weights ordered and see what I get. Depending if I go with lighted nocks or not I should end up somewhere in the 15-18% range.

Rocky, that sounds like an awful lot of weight up there for 350's. I agree with ****** that I'd start lower and work your way up to that in small increments.


----------



## TXHillCountry

*Can't seem to get it right*

I have been following this thread and reading about the FOC topic with a lot of interest lately. So, I decided to start my own experiment by ordering some CT Panther shafts and some 50 gr muzzy brass inserts. I knew that I was not going to get EFOC but I want to at least get past 15% and keep the arrow weight less than 450 gr. 

So, I get the shafts and I have no instructions on how to cut the tapered shafts to get the right spine. So, I call CT and find out that even if you cut 4 inches off the nock end the stiffest spine you get is .340. I knew I was going to be in trouble. So, I ran the numbers with a 28.5" shaft, 50gr insert, 100gr and FOBs. TAP says that I need a .300 spine.

There just don't seem to be a lot of shafts that are in .300 spine but still relatively lightweight. Is that just a hard shaft to manufacture or is the demand just not in the marketplace?


----------



## Whitey375

Tim, that is good news that the 450's are starting to get out. I for one will be very interested on how they work out.

TX, depending on what bow you are shooting, I think you will end up near the border. The only way to tell will be to get broadheads on there once you get your field points dialed in. Would you feel safe with a 28" shaft? Might help a bit. And I think the demand just isn't there for light .300 spine hunting shafts, too bad really.

The AMG's are definately not going to do what I need done, I shot the ones with the 50 grain inserts in them today after getting my set up, turns out it was mostly me, fixed up. I had my 16 yr old (jeez, already, really?) daughter stand behind me and watch the arrow flight with field points and broadheads. The field points flew like darts, when I screwed broadheads on they wagged like an excited dog. They would shoot 2-4" groups at 35 yards, but with them wagging like that they are just not going to get it. I ran out of daylight to shoot the CX 350's, but if I don't work again tomorrow, I will be shooting for sure.


----------



## Aggieland

Well, I received my Gold Tip screw in weights yesterday afternoon.. And guess what?? Of course they will not fit inside the AMG shafts I have!!!!! :mg: So once again im going to have to try and figure out a new route on getting enough weight up front.. Chasing my tail over and over.. 

Tx, Your right they dont have enough shafts that will do the job were wanting.. 

Anyone have any suggestions on what weights will fit inside these shafts? catch you guys later..


----------



## Koorsboom

> There just don't seem to be a lot of shafts that are in .300 spine but still relatively lightweight. Is that just a hard shaft to manufacture or is the demand just not in the marketplace?


Victory makes a nice light shaft in .300" spine. I however found the spine still too weak for my 585gr arrows with 400gr at anything from 75 to 65# (I would imagine that they would spine correctly at about 60#, but then I am not getting the speed that I want (about 240f/s).

At the moment I am going to go with a .250" or .200" fat shaft and see if I can at least get the arrow weight/FOC/correct spine sorted out for my 75/80# bow. 

Hopefully the single bevel broad heads will take care of the shaft getting stuck in any bones the arrow has to pass through ...:smile:


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## Whitey375

Casey, I used the same Gold Tip weights as you have. To make them fit I just threaded them into an Axis standard insert I had laying around and chucked the insert up in a drill press. Then I basically just held a small tooth file against it until it was the correct size. Takes about a minute and a 50 screwed to a 20 end up weighing 57.1 grains after filing. Which by the way I shot some more today with them and I was able to shoot 2" groups really consistently at 35 yards with field points set up EFOC. But even when I used the shafts with no weights and just a 100 grain head they were still wagging. I am still hopeful that they will end up working for you. By the way I ran into the guy who has a dozen new shafts that he isn't going to use so if you, or anyone else, wants them PM me and I will arrange it. He wants 160 for them because that is what he has into them. I think he has the .000-.001" straightness ones which is why they are more.

Koors, you could always try the Gold Tip Big Game 100's, they have a .250 spine, and probably better suited for hunting.

The CX 350's aren't going to get it either. Looking for some 450's tomorrow. One of my local shops has the CX Piledrivers, but I really don't want to shoot a 600+ grain arrow.


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## Bowhuntertim

Hey ******, I was lucky and picked up the first dozen Maxima Hunter 450's my local shop got in. I saw however that Keystone Country Store has them in stock now so you could pick them up there if you don't have any luck locally. The price looked comparable to what I paid at the shop. Just FYI.


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## Rockyhud

On a lark I decided to check out the Gold Tip Big Game shafts. Here are the specs they publish on their site.

SHAFT SIZE/COLOR - BIG GAME
WEIGHT GR /IN - 10.6
SPINE - .280
LENGTH - 32"
O.D. - .308"
I.D. - .246"
WEIGHT @29" - 307.4 gr.
RECOMMENDED POINT WEIGHT - 100-125gr

I found it interesting they recommend only 100-125 grains of point weight, even with .280 spine. Given their weight and "low" point weight spec it looks like this shaft wouldn't lend itself to creating an arrow with EFOC.

I still haven't gotten an email reply from Carbon Express so I'm going to try to call them tomorrow to see if I can get a real technical person and ask how much point weight the Maxima 350 can handle. I agree with ******, putting 300 grains up front is most likely too much for the 350, which is why I haven't even considered shooting them like that. I just want to get them to say how much they can handle and go from there.

If all the shafts we've been dealing with can't handle the higher weights to get EFOC, it's beginning to make me think the Alaska Bowhunting Supply shafts may be some of the very few, and maybe the only, shafts that can be configured and shot with heavy tips.


----------



## Aggieland

I think once I work with my shafts they are going to be fine with a lot of weight up front. But I do have a short DL.. my arrows shafts are 25" long. I know one option that would be pretty much the same weight im guessing as the Alaskan bowhunter supply shafts is the Easton FMJ dangerous game shafts. But man those things along with the AB shafts are heavy.. If I could talk any arrow maker into making what I wanted it would be Victory, I wish they would make a .280 spined Nano shaft. The regular nano shafts "if you havent seen them" have a really really small dia.. They just look awsome. oh well keep you guys posed on my progress, still waiting on the baby to arrive..:thumbs_up


----------



## wyetterp

Rockyhud said:


> On a lark I decided to check out the Gold Tip Big Game shafts. Here are the specs they publish on their site.
> 
> SHAFT SIZE/COLOR - BIG GAME
> WEIGHT GR /IN - 10.6
> SPINE - .280
> LENGTH - 32"
> O.D. - .308"
> I.D. - .246"
> WEIGHT @29" - 307.4 gr.
> RECOMMENDED POINT WEIGHT - 100-125gr
> 
> I found it interesting they recommend only 100-125 grains of point weight, even with .280 spine. Given their weight and "low" point weight spec it looks like this shaft wouldn't lend itself to creating an arrow with EFOC.
> 
> 
> If all the shafts we've been dealing with can't handle the higher weights to get EFOC, it's beginning to make me think the Alaska Bowhunting Supply shafts may be some of the very few, and maybe the only, shafts that can be configured and shot with heavy tips.


I actually called them today about these same arrows(GT big game). Those guys are very helpful. They laughed and said "crap, w/those arrows you can put almost as much weight up front as you want. From what I see you can put up to 300gr up front & still be ok. As long as you not shooting 31" arrows above 100lbs. " 

Also trophy ridge confirmed I could use up to 200grs for the crush 400's.


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## Whitey375

Rocky, those specs are from last years' model. This years' has a .250 spine and it is 10.1gpi according to the 2010 catalog that I have.

Casey, the ABS shafts aren't _that_ heavy. The Sitkas weigh 300 grains for the shaft, the Alaskans are around 400, and the Safaris are over 500. I did the math and the Sitkas end up being like 9.75 gpi, the Alaskans are like 12.4gpi, and the Safaris are better than 15gpi.


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## Bowhuntertim

Well I got my CX 450's cut down, squared, and inserts in so I just need to get the weights screwed in and fletch some up and we'll see how they tune. Cut to 28.5 inches with the 50 grain weights, they are going to finish out about right at 500 grains with an FOC just over 17%. 28.5 is about as short as I can go with a 30" draw so I'm hoping by going shorter I increased my spine enough to handle the heavy weight up front. They are going to weigh real close to most previous arrows I've tried but with about 7% more FOC. I'll give an update when I get around to tuning them.


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## Aggieland

Im auctually considering using the shafts I have they are cut to 25.3" and putting an Asby 315 grain head on it... :wink: If they can handle that much.. ****** you said that these arrows are a .300 spine right? at 32" heck mine cut that short should handle almost anything on the front. But im going to get some feed back before trying that... Yes im scared haha.. catch you guys later.. Keep this thread rolling im addicted!!!!!.. by the way my arrow would weigh a total weight around 575 grains.


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## Rockyhud

*Interesting...*

that Gold Tip would still publish old specs on their website when catalogs indicate differently. I hope they update this soon.

I also found a generic FOC calculator on Gold Tip's website that allows you to input all the data specific to YOUR arrows, not just certain models of Gold Tip, and get the FOC. I entered the data from my Maxima 350 as it was before I started playing with weights. The calculation came out VERY close to my measured FOC - web calculator said 8.71% vs measured FOC of 8.66%.

Here's the URL.
http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/foc.asp?rnd=289401938

I also got a chance to call Carbon Express and Gold Tip today. I called CX to find out the heaviest tip I could use with Maxima 350 shafts. Their technical guy emailed saying "I don't think the Maxima 350 will work with your set up. I would recommend using either a Maxima Hunter 450 or PileDriver Hunter 450." He also told me I absolutely shouldn't go over 200 grains and recommended using 150 grains and really no more than 175 grains with the Maxima 350.

I then called Gold Tip to see what they would say about their Big Game 100+ shaft. Their tech guy said this could handle 200 grain tips with no problem and it could actually handle 250 to possibly 300 grains. He said a person should carefully experiment with these 250-300 grain tips to make sure the setup works OK (not too much shaft bending at the time of the shot). He also said with my draw weight of 63 lbs he didn't think I'd have any issues with any of these weights since this shaft is spine rated for 75-110 lbs draw weight.

Using the FOC calculator above (and Windows calculator) I did some figuring for this shaft. Using the website specs of 10.6 gr/inch shaft weight, 11 gr for insert, 200 gr for tip, 24 gr for fletching/vanes (and glue), 14 gr for nock the total weight figures to be about 556 grains with FOC of 14.56%. With 250 grains up front FOC is 17.21%. This could be what I'm looking for - high enough weight and FOC without being too extreme in either area.

The Gold Tip Big Game 100+ shaft, along with an Alaska Bowhunting Supply 175 or 200 grain Samurai single bevel broadhead, could be the ultimate North American big game arrow ammunition for me. I'm now starting research to find the best place for buying a half dozen (or maybe a dozen if the price is good).


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## Aggieland

Hey Rocky, The Gold tip calculator is the same one I have been using and it is really really close .. I would say it has always been withing .5% of what i measured myself.. pretty handy tool..


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## Whitey375

So I got my Sitka and Alaskan Grizzly Stiks today.......your arrows are supposed to turn almost completely sideways in the air.....right? hummm..........
They are a very sharp looking shaft and the quality of the components are second to none. I am sure they would be fantastic for someone not needing an arrow to give them 20% or better FOC out of a 6" brace height, 350 fps IBO, dual hard cam bow drawn 29" at 72#. I guess I need to order some 450 Maximas, although, really, how terrible are these numbers that I am getting with the 350's;
430 grains
14.1% FOC
305 fps

My opinion of the long and the short of this is, for someone at my specs and equipment, I do not believe EFOC ( better than the magic 19%) is possible with the available components, stay under 500 grains, and have a useable hunting arrow when you are done.


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## Whitey375

Casey, you are high if you think those arrows are going to work.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Casey, you are high if you think those arrows are going to work.


Did the owner tell you these shafts are a .300 spine? Just wondering, If i can't get these shafts to do anything i'm prob going back to either a victory shaft of some sort or the Easton FMJ's They are heavy but hell I have about decided to just shoot an arrow thats heavier than anything I ever shot. My sight pins are so close together right now and im only using this setup for hunting along with a Hogg Father movable sight.. Guess I will see how it all works out.. I cant get away to a really bad ars bow shop I have been told about 2 hrs from me because of work and the wife still waiting on the baby.. So it might be 2 weeks or more..


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## bullfisher

Whitey375 said:


> So I got my Sitka and Alaskan Grizzly Stiks today.......your arrows are supposed to turn almost completely sideways in the air.....right? hummm..........
> They are a very sharp looking shaft and the quality of the components are second to none. I am sure they would be fantastic for someone not needing an arrow to give them 20% or better FOC out of a 6" brace height, 350 fps IBO, dual hard cam bow drawn 29" at 72#. I guess I need to order some 450 Maximas, although, really, how terrible are these numbers that I am getting with the 350's;
> 430 grains
> 14.1% FOC
> 305 fps
> 
> My opinion of the long and the short of this is, for someone at my specs and equipment, I do not believe EFOC ( better than the magic 19%) is possible with the available components, stay under 500 grains, and have a useable hunting arrow when you are done.


It is difficult to achieve efoc with a long arrow and a speed bow I assume. But a true 300 spine arrow should still be able to handle it. Most arrow charts rate a 300 out to 90# or more with a hard cam and a 125grn on them. Did you get tapered shafts and cut the the narrow end to achive stiffer spine, can you cut your shafts shorter for stiffer spine, can you add weight in back or a fourth fletch for stiffer spine, are your arrows a true 300, have you bare shaft paper tuned regular vs efoc arrows to see if the arrows arent amplifying a form flaw. Just throwin stuff out there ****** cause I know this is possible.


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## Whitey375

Casey, the guy said the nock end, like 2.5", is a .280 and the rest of the shaft is .310. But I don't believe they are suited to what I want to use them for, and I really think if they aren't going to work for me at 71# they aren't going to get it for you. Even though you are running shorter arrows than I am. I couldn't get them to spine out with 125's on a standard (no added weight other than insert and head) shaft. I am thinking you should give the Gold Tip Big Game 100's a run, I think that they will be what you want. They are 10.1 an inch, but that would put you at only a 263 grain shaft for your 26" arrows. And with a .250 spine I think that you could run up the head weight fairly easily.

Bullfisher, I have run the gamut of spine testing and flaw finding. Bare shafts through paper, bare shafts with fletched shafts, etc etc, everything that I have tested, except the Sitka shafts and the AMG's would bullet hole through paper with field points. As well as shooting them at 30 yards fletched and with field points I can take arrows ranging from 370 grain all the way to 560 grains and draw a straight vertical line from the top of my target to the bottom. Then when I change to broadheads with the EFOC arrows I get right flight. I mean when my 9 year old and I are standing side by side and he tells me, " Dad, I think there is something wrong with your arrows. They aren't supposed to do that." There's a problem. 
I have tried moving my rest and nock point all over creation to get them to shoot with extremely limited success. As far as cutting the tapered shafts goes, I cut the AMG's and the ABS shafts as far from the back as I could and still get the nocks to fit. On the AMG's it was only a half inch. The ABS's were not the same, but they come 32" so the 3.5" I cut off didn't help much I don't think.

I went to a 3D shoot today with the 350's and shot a 6" 3 arrow group at 100 yards, I think if something was wrong I would have seen it with those shafts. Just need to get a hold of a few GTBG100's and some CXMH 450's so I can do some actual testing.


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## scrawnyPilgrim

Wow are you guys shooting elephants?


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## Aggieland

I have been playing around on TAP and just reading Asby stuff.. I'm auctually considering shooting a really heavy arrow.. Let's strategize for a moment.. All Im going to be using this arrow for is hunting and after looking at all the positives and negatives of a hunting arrow the only negative I can see of using a heavier arrow is more arrow drop. I use a range finder all the time so thats really not a huge issue. If I use the 315 grain Asby head what arrow would you put behind it? Im thinking something that has a really small Dia.. Easton FMJ'S, Trophy ridge shafts, any other suggestions.. All I know is I want something that will be at least a .300 spine before I cut it down to 25 inches.. I went out today and shot a little with a .400 spine FMJ today filled to the top with Salt. I also shot some of my other lighter shafts and to be honest at the short distances i was shooting I could tell no difference in flight speed. But I can tell ya this the FMJ filled with salt went straight through my target.. I hate that I might have wasted money on the shafts I have now, they might work they might not. If they don't I will use them on just whatever and not worry about the EFOC with them. But im still going to try and get an arrow with EFOC and if it weighs 650 grains thats fine too.. My current pin gap on my last setup at 305fps was really to close so getting a little more pin gap wont hurt and Im using the Hogg Father sight so I can move it to whatever distance I want.. What do you guys thing? lol "Bring on Africa Right!!!"


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## Whitey375

FMJ Dangerous Game 250's 17.2(?)gpi, 75 grain Brass Insert, 315 grain head, 9 grain nock (lol), 30 grains for fletching= 829 grains for a 25" arrow. But really why in the world would you want to spend that much on broadheads? At 30 bucks a whack, you would be 180 into a quiver full of heads. At least the Gold Tips are cheap.


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## Whitey375

By the way, I found something really interesting tonight. I have been gutting the garage lately and rounded up some Axis 400's for a kid on my daughters archery team. I cut them down for him to 26.75", he is shooting a 27" draw and 63#. Just built the standard way with 100 grain heads and Blazers, plain vanilla, they have an FOC of 14.3%. I had a couple that had a 50 grain brass HIT insert, and with a 100 grain head, 17+%. Son of a b*tch!! According to Easton's web spine selector, they are perfectly safe. So maybe I should have bought a 60# Destroyer?? If at 28" long, they would be safe too. If I knocked another half inch off my draw and only drew 63#, I could run a 440 grain stubby arrows with 18% FOC


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## Koorsboom

> So I got my Sitka and Alaskan Grizzly Stiks today


When I contacted them I also enquired about the Sitka, but Ed advised me that the spine would be far to weak for what I was planning (about 400gr on the front of a 27" shaft (29" draw length) out of a 75 to 80# bow).

He recommende that I try the Alaskan shaft and that is what is on the cards now. I will also be giving the gold tip big game shafts a try soon.

At the moment I achieved 18% FOC with my CX Rebel Hunter 7590 shafts with 340gr on the front. The arrows bullet hole if I turn the draw weight down to below 70# and then I get about 230f/s arrow speed. Arrows weigh 617gr.

I am now looking for a shaft that would allow me to go to at least 75# to gain an extra few f/s.


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## Aggieland

Yeah, ****** I know what ya mean..And me trying to resharpen those things would be a mess.. Im probably going to stick with the 175grain X-bow trick and make that work with some sort of arrow combo.. I'm even considering going back to the Axis FMJ's they are damn heavy but overall the best shaft i have played around with.. And much easier to pull from a target than the rest.. I have some of the ACC pro hunters and really dont see anything better about them than the FMJ's.. hmm decisions decisions.. Maybe FMJ's with the 75g incert and the 175g xbow trick.. hmm 18.50-19.00% FOC... 570 grain arrow..


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## Whitey375

Ya Koors I knew that the Sitka's would be weak, but I had to give it a try, lol. The Alaskan doesn't get it either, which it should, kinda weird. It did great with a 100 grain head and got a little flippy with the 125's, but when I strapped on a 150 grain field point, that frickin arrow turned inside out! 

I have a dozen GTBG100's on the way this week, so the testing will start, AGAIN, soon. I will keep you all posted.

Casey, the ACC Pro Hunters were actually my first choice, only problem is you have to customize the insert or find another one that will fit. As the standard HP insert is closed on the end, I think PDP makes some though. I really like the FMJ's, standard or the Dangerous Game version, you'll save a few gpi with the standard version, will help with boosting FOC. Do you have a pro shop near you that stocks those arrows? The Axis FMJ DG's that is.


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## Aggieland

Yeah, I have some of the FMJ 400's and some 340 pro hunters.. By the way the both of these shafts will accept the brass incert Easton has it weighs 75 grains or can be broken off to weigh 50 grains.. So im looking hard at using the .300 spine Fmj's with the 75g incerts and the 175g xbow tricks.. would give me around 19% foc and a total arrow weight in the 570-580 range.. ohh yeah baby.. :wink:


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## Koorsboom

> The Alaskan doesn't get it either


We have a local dealer that now stocks the grily Stcks ... I will be trying the Safari shaft one of these days as well ...


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## Whitey375

So I was at the BT factory pro shop tonight and they had some Maxima 450's and the GTBG100's will be in tomorrow........ Party on...


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## B3AV3R

I've been looking at the new 175gr Slick Trick...


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## 77jimmy

What method are you guys using to calculate foc? Entire arrow length or shaft length?


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## Buster of Xs

A light .300 spine arrow would GT 22ULs.

My indoor arrows have a touch over 18% FOC and I didn't even go out of my way at all to get it.  They are 28" long, have inserts and 125 grain points, standard nocks and feathers at the back. And these are tuning perfectly from a 52#, 28" ProElite with SpiralX cams. :thumbs_up


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## Koorsboom

> What method are you guys using to calculate foc? Entire arrow length or shaft length


I am measuring from the tip of the shaft to the deepest part of the nock groove ...


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## belovian

Hey, I've been following this thread with great interest. Has anyone looked at the gold tip triple x. they spine at .150 and weigh 9.3 grains/inch. Seems like it could be a winner! my combo would come to about 528 gr with 20.65% F.O.C.


Jesse


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## Aggieland

belovian said:


> Hey, I've been following this thread with great interest. Has anyone looked at the gold tip triple x. they spine at .150 and weigh 9.3 grains/inch. Seems like it could be a winner! my combo would come to about 528 gr with 20.65% F.O.C.
> 
> 
> Jesse



How large is the DIA. on those shafts? most people are trying to get the smallest arrow shaft Dia they possibly can.. I see the gold tip big game 100's has a pretty small dia..


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## belovian

It's a bigger shaft at 0.421. What is the big drawback with diameter? I get there is a little more drag and maybe some planing... But how bad could it be?



Jesse

P.S. there's always the 30X 8.5 gr/inch O.D. 0.398 0.300 spine


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## deercamp

how does this sound and is this right. i need some opinions. firts off i'll be shooting a strother sr-71 29/30. i'll probably be shooting around 65 to start.
i have been doing a lot of figuring. here it goes. a victory hv 300 = 6.9 gpi
nock 10 grains insert 14 fusion vanes total 21 grains.
28" arrow = 193.2 grains. then i was thinking of using a silver flame xl
broadhead. a 150 grain head would give me a total weight of 388.2 16.1 foc
180 head would give me 418.2 and a foc of 18.3. i think i like the second figure better with the higher foc and heavier arrow. i would like to know if someone could tell me if my numbers are close and if this even going to work?
i will be hunting deer and black bear up in the northeast.
i know it might be overkill but i like every advatage i can get.:wink:


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## Aggieland

DeerCamp Go to google.com and type in gold tip foc calculator. the first thing that comes up is their old calculator and it is almost spot on when figuring FOC like Asby does.. I have used it many times and its really close and easy. Just be sure to read the directions on the right ....:thumbs_up


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## deercamp

thank i'll go check it out.


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## Rockyhud

Belovian, to get an understanding of how the shaft diameter affects penetration you should read the field test reports that Dr Ed Ashby has compiled. You can find a lot of these (maybe all) from links on the Alaska Bowhunting Supply website (http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/). He's got the answer for you from all his tests of arrow weights, broadhead types and shaft diameters and how you can calculate how these variables will play into your particular bow and arrow configuration.


----------



## Whitey375

So I picked up some of the Maxima Hunter 450's today, here are a few results;
Cut to 28.5", 3 fletched with Blazers, nock collar and standard 11.6(?) grain nock, the field points were the Gold Tip EZ Pull 125's.

Built standard, no added anything 450 grains 13.5% FOC 297fps
Add 2 20 grain weights goes to 490 grains 16% FOC 289fps
Take out a 20 and replace with a 50 grain weight, it jumps to 522 grain 19.8% FOC, 280fps.

I shot them all multiple times out to 20 yards, bare shaft versus fletched and then field points versus a 125 grain Muzzy 3 blade. They were showing a bit stiff built standard, but I settled them down once I started packing on weight. Even stacked up with all the weight, total of 195 grains not including the insert, I ended up tearing a fletch off my fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 30 yards. My only real issue, I just don't know if I want to shoot 280fps.


----------



## bullfisher

Whitey375 said:


> So I picked up some of the Maxima Hunter 450's today, here are a few results;
> Cut to 28.5", 3 fletched with Blazers, nock collar and standard 11.6(?) grain nock, the field points were the Gold Tip EZ Pull 125's.
> 
> Built standard, no added anything 450 grains 13.5% FOC 297fps
> Add 2 20 grain weights goes to 490 grains 16% FOC 289fps
> Take out a 20 and replace with a 50 grain weight, it jumps to 522 grain 19.8% FOC, 280fps.
> 
> I shot them all multiple times out to 20 yards, bare shaft versus fletched and then field points versus a 125 grain Muzzy 3 blade. They were showing a bit stiff built standard, but I settled them down once I started packing on weight. Even stacked up with all the weight, total of 195 grains not including the insert, I ended up tearing a fletch off my fletched arrow with a bare shaft at 30 yards. My only real issue, I just don't know if I want to shoot 280fps.


Thats over 90 ft lbs of KE! and then the momentum of a 522 grn arrow plus a foc of almost 20%. thats a penetrating machine, with EFOC flight charictaristics. Whats wrong with 280?


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## Aggieland

Dang ******, You have made yourself a real Ass kicker of an arrow!!!!! I have decided to shoot a much heavier arrow like the one you have made.. I shot my Envy at 305 fps with a 410g arrrow and the pins were set at 30 40 50.. even at these settings they were to close together. So this go around Im wanting something heavier for more punch and to spread the pins out some.. I say for hunting that is the perfect weight and speed. :thumbs_up


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## belovian

Rockyhud said:


> Belovian, to get an understanding of how the shaft diameter affects penetration you should read the field test reports that Dr Ed Ashby has compiled. You can find a lot of these (maybe all) from links on the Alaska Bowhunting Supply website (http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/). He's got the answer for you from all his tests of arrow weights, broadhead types and shaft diameters and how you can calculate how these variables will play into your particular bow and arrow configuration.


Thank you very much for the link. I had briefly read some of Dr. Ashby's studies, but I just read the one on momentum and penetration etc... Although he does state the Importance of having a shaft that has a diameter that is smaller that the BH ferrule, he also mentions that when penetrating live tissue, muscle tends to retract and blood lubricates the shaft. I also noticed they don't list shaft diameters on the website (or much technical info really). And even after reading that article I'm still confident that an arrow that is slightly larger with the proper broadhead will net good results. 



Jesse


Now I'm off to find the diameter of various BH's......


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## Aggieland

belovian said:


> Thank you very much for the link. I had briefly read some of Dr. Ashby's studies, but I just read the one on momentum and penetration etc... Although he does state the Importance of having a shaft that has a diameter that is smaller that the BH ferrule, he also mentions that when penetrating live tissue, muscle tends to retract and blood lubricates the shaft. I also noticed they don't list shaft diameters on the website (or much technical info really). And even after reading that article I'm still confident that an arrow that is slightly larger with the proper broadhead will net good results.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesse
> 
> 
> Now I'm off to find the diameter of various BH's......


Your probably right man.. I know one thing those grizzly sticks are pretty large on the incert end.. The taper quite a bit but big on the front.. 


Does anyone know anybody that is really really good at figuring spine? I had one pretty savy in the archery techno business say that the Easton Fmj .300 spine cut to 25" with a total of 250 grains up front would be to weak of a spine? I thought it would work but dont want to spend the money on shafts again if it wont.... Still have not made the trip down to on target archery and found out of the AMG shafts will work or not ******.. Even if they do im leaning hard on the FMJ's again.. really like those shafts..


----------



## Rockyhud

So, has anyone bought any Gold Tip Big Game 100s and done any testing/shooting with them yet? I've been down and getting over a bad cold lately and haven't gone online to get any, plus the weather hasn't exactly been cooperating either. While the Hunter 450s sounds pretty good I'm sure they're fairly pricey too - more so then Gold Tips. I keep drifting back to thinking the GTBG 100s could be the one - plenty of spine, capable of handling lots of weight up front and moderately heavy along with a fairly slender shaft, plus I can experiment a lot with the insert weights and tips I bought. There aren't any shops carrying them locally so I'm seriously thinking about ordering a half dozen to try out.


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## Aggieland

Heck I can never seem to get any straight answers reguarding the spine issue i might run into.. Sounds like were all going to have to have the stiffest shafts we can find doing all this EFOC.. let me know what you decide on the BG 100's


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## Whitey375

Rocky, I am still waiting for the pro shop to get them in. When they do I will pick up a few and start playing with them. The 450's weren't out of order, like 130 a dozen.

Casey, I think you would be fine with the 300's. They (Easton) said I could put 225 grains on the front of a 28.5" shaft at 70#.

BTW, the heavy 450's bullet holed through paper today. I friend of mine with an 82# PSE HF6 shot them at 303, and they bullet holed for him too.


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## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> Heck I can never seem to get any straight answers reguarding the spine issue i might run into.. Sounds like were all going to have to have the stiffest shafts we can find doing all this EFOC.. let me know what you decide on the BG 100's


Static spine is measured by supporting a 29" shaft 28" appart and hanging a 1.94 lbs wieght from it and measuring how far it deflected. .300 is a 300 spine ect. some companys reverse it by giving thier stiffer arrows a higher number Dynamic spine is the result of all the componants added and shot out of a bow. its difficult to determin dynamic spine but thier is a formula for it. The TAP program is ussually closer then the manufacturers charts. I assume you could spine your short arrows with the method above just by supporting it a half inch on either side. Short arrows are stiffer but become less stable. whenever theres a give theres always a take!


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## Aggieland

bullfisher said:


> Static spine is measured by supporting a 29" shaft 28" appart and hanging a 1.94 lbs wieght from it and measuring how far it deflected. .300 is a 300 spine ect. some companys reverse it by giving thier stiffer arrows a higher number Dynamic spine is the result of all the componants added and shot out of a bow. its difficult to determin dynamic spine but thier is a formula for it. The TAP program is ussually closer then the manufacturers charts. I assume you could spine your short arrows with the method above just by supporting it a half inch on either side. Short arrows are stiffer but become less stable. whenever theres a give theres always a take!


Yeah, I have TAP and it shows the arrow to be way to weak with all the weight up front.. Guess its prob right.. If so, its anouther dream down the drain..


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## wyetterp

I found this interesting. It's a response from Reo Wilde

"I do like a EFOC in long range shooting. I have found it to not be as big of deal in short range shooting. I have never really found any problems with there being to much. Hope this is what you wanted to know and if you have more questions you know how to get to me.

Thanks
Reo"


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## bullfisher

wyetterp said:


> I found this interesting. It's a response from Reo Wilde
> 
> "I do like a EFOC in long range shooting. I have found it to not be as big of deal in short range shooting. I have never really found any problems with there being to much. Hope this is what you wanted to know and if you have more questions you know how to get to me.
> 
> Thanks
> Reo"


Intresting Indeed!


----------



## Rockyhud

I pulled the trigger and ordered a half dozen Gold Tip Big Game 100s from Bowhunters Superstore this morning. From what I found they not only had them in stock but had the best price too. I should have them in hand late this coming week. I can't wait to get them and start experimenting with different weights up front to see how they perform.


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## Rockyhud

So, I took my Maxima 350s outside and shot them today with 145, 175 and 200 gr tips at 20 and 30 yards. Even though the weather was decent (sunny and close to 50 degrees) it was also pretty breezy - winds about 10-15 mph and perpendicular to my shooting lane from left to right. Consequently I couldn't tell a lot about how the different weights affected flight. The one good thing is the 200 gr tips didn't cause the arrows to blow up when first shot. That at least tells me I can continue playing with different weights on these shafts without worries.

The little bit I did seem to notice was the 200 gr arrows appeared to have a little tail to the right attitude as they went down range before straightening out. The 175 grainers seemed to leave the bow pretty well straight out, as did the 145 grainers. Again, it was kind of hard to tell much for sure due to the winds and just me shooting and trying to see what was happening.

I also really couldn't tell anything about differences in penetration either. I knew this was likely to be the case as my bag target density isn't consistent enough to test this, plus with the winds blowing the arrows around and causing them sometimes to not enter straight in I know there was some energy lost there.

Guess I'll have to wait another day when the conditions are better and I have another set of eyes to watch the arrows as they leave the bow and travel down range.


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## bullfisher

Rocky, watching the shaft in flight isnt a reliable method. You should paper tune!


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## gandergrinder

This was a long read.....but well worth it.

I've got a question for you guys. Here goes......I've got a Maxxis 35 28/61. I'd like to shoot 28" Easton Axis' with 125 grain broadheads and 50-75 grain brass inserts. I'm confused as to what spine arrow, 400's or 340's? 

Thanks for the help, and please keep this thread going!!!!


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## belovian

gandergrinder said:


> This was a long read.....but well worth it.
> 
> I've got a question for you guys. Here goes......I've got a Maxxis 35 28/61. I'd like to shoot 28" Easton Axis' with 125 grain broadheads and 50-75 grain brass inserts. I'm confused as to what spine arrow, 400's or 340's?
> 
> Thanks for the help, and please keep this thread going!!!!


You left out some info on the arrows but using blazers, According to tap even the .340 axis will be too weak with that much weight out front. you'd be looking for something in the 0.275 spine range (at 175 grain tips) 





Jesse


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## gandergrinder

belovian said:


> You left out some info on the arrows but using blazers, According to tap even the .340 axis will be too weak with that much weight out front. you'd be looking for something in the 0.275 spine range (at 175 grain tips)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesse


Blazers for sure. How low would I have to go on tip/insert weight to stay with a 340? Thanks again for the help.


----------



## belovian

gandergrinder said:


> Blazers for sure. How low would I have to go on tip/insert weight to stay with a 340? Thanks again for the help.


Using tap, I'm getting 125gr. as ideal point weight (plus insert etc...) This also gives you around 11.5 % F.O.C. which doesn't really qualify as EFOC, more like standard. I'm starting to believe that to get EFOC I'm going to compromise shaft diameter and get a .150 spine shaft. According to Dr. Ashby as long as the ferrule of the Bh is larger than the shaft It won't be a problem. Plus at 525 grains out of a 70#/29" bow EFOC or not Bambi is going down...


Jesse


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## Whitey375

gander, what is your goal? You would be fine with a 50 grain brass HIT insert and a 125 grain head on a 340 shaft. I was shooting the 75 grain insert with a 100 out of a longer drawn and heavier poundage bow with Axis 300's. They were around 510 grains and 15% FOC, not huge FOC numbers but they shoot great. I gave some to a friend yesterday and out of his bow he was breaking nocks/shafts already. He said that he had never gotten the groups at 20 yards even with his FMJ's that he was getting with those Axis. You really need to assess where you are with your set up and which areas you want to improve upon. After that it is all easy. BTW in helping some kids on the daughters' team, I found that a 100 grain head with a standard insert in a 27" .400 spine Axis fletched with Blazers has a FOC of 14 and change. If you go with a 340 with a 50gr insert and a 125gr head, I believe you will be in the 15-16% ballpark, maybe slightly more.

After being a ***** about arrow weight I had some time and weather to shoot 60 yards for groups today. At 60 yards the Maxima 450's with a 50gr insert and a 125, total weight of 508gr, dropped about 3" more than Maxima 350's with a 20gr insert and a 125gr head, total weight 449 grains. They both dropped about 3-4" more than Maxima 350's with a 20gr insert and a 100 grain head, total weight 424 grains.

_*BUTTT*_
The heavy ones (508) never ended up more than 2 inches apart. The mid weight ones were usually in about 5-6 inch groups, sometimes less, and the light weight ones were paper plate groups. One interesting thing I noticed was the sound when the arrows hit the bag. The heavies made a resounding THWACK and the light ones were kind of a feeble POP. And, of course, the heavies penetrated deeper into the bag, although not the greatest test medium, as was stated before. I need to go buy some more 450's and do some BH testing as well as different inserts. But as of right now my hunting arrow for this coming year will be a 28.25" CX Maxima Hunter 450's with some combination of at least 175 grains up front.


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## Aggieland

*Nice *******

Good review and test bro.. Were still setting around waiting on our baby to arrive so have not had a chance to try anything or spend more money on arrows. Right now im still planning on getting the .300 fmj's with the 75 grain incerts and the 175 grain heads.. would put my foc somewhere around 18% with a 570g arrow.. flying around 275-280 :wink:

Here is what a buddie used in Africa on Elephants etc.. If this arrow held up for him it will hold up for me I think ???? 

"The arrow I had was a FMJ DG 250 spine with an 8gr per inch wt tube and a 100gr insert. Shot bullet holes. Arrow was 28" and I was shooting a 29" bow. I have built the exact arrows you want to shoot(FMJ 300 DG)They shot but I used 100gr inserts and 125gr head. They shot bullets out of a 29" 80# and the 29" 90#er. I thing that set up will work perfect. "

What do you guys think? im shooting a 25-25.5" shaft with a 27.5" dl.. at 81.5 pounds..


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## Whitey375

What was his FOC? Also have you thought about using the Muzzy 100 grain inserts with a more commonly available 150 grain head?


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## Aggieland

Does muzzy make an incert that will fir the axis shafts? I'm wanting to use the xbow tricks they are an awsome head. I have a choice on incerts that weigh 16,50 or 75 grains. 75 of course gives more foc. I'm going to give it a try soon. Were having our son today!! I'm at the hospital now. Wish us luck.. Catch you guys later.


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## gandergrinder

Whitey375 said:


> gander, what is your goal?


Thanks for the help ******. I'm just looking to make a heavy hunting arrow with a better than average FOC. I'm very interested in gaining some accuracy, and quieting things down a bit.


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## Alpha Burnt

Hello, after reading some articles on here and not being happy with my arrow flight I just made some changes. I am shooting a Hoyt Alpha Burner 29/70 set at 66, and had some 29.5" XX78 2512 with nibbs, fletched with 3" feathers. Before I modified things, FOC was 8 percent. After melting lead fishing sinkers and pouring them in the nibbs, then drilling excess out to get them all to the same weight, I ended up with nibbs weighing 185 gn instead of 108 gn. This moved my FOC to almost 16 percent. Arrows are grouping better, but now weigh close to 520 gn. As of now I am happy, anyone with TAP or other program that can figure out what my arrow spine range is now?


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## skybolt

Arrow through the hand or forearm brewing.If it happens will they admit it. Stay tuned to find out.


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## bullfisher

skybolt said:


> Arrow through the hand or forearm brewing.If it happens will they admit it. Stay tuned to find out.


That would be a sweet trophy scar, you bet I'd claim it! Thanks for stopping by skybolt.


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## skybolt

bullfisher said:


> That would be a sweet trophy scar, you bet I'd claim it! Thanks for stopping by skybolt.


Sorry, I'll pass but it will happen.


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## Whitey375

Skybolt, seriously? Do you really think folks that are experimenting with this are willing to take that chance? We want to improve our shooting, not cost ourselves many thousands of dollars in medical bills. Arrow flight begins to deteriorate long before we get into enough of an underspined condition that would create a dangerous situation that would result in a carbon party under one's skin. As a matter of fact, that has been my number one concern this entire time. After speaking with every arrow manufacturer mentioned on this thread, I have been told that I am perfectly safe doing what I have been doing with whoevers' arrows using my set up.

So then what Skybolt? Just needed something to create some drama for yourself did ya? What are ya, about 20?
It's OK man, your dad did love you.


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## wyetterp

He obviously hasn't read through all the post. I decided to take a good bit of time to read through them & way more time following up researching. 

So far, this has been one of my favorite threads on AT. 

For the most part there's been mostly positive feedback. 


So, SKYBOLT, spend some time & actually start reading the whole thread. You may actually learn something.


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## Whitey375

AlphaBurnt, how do they shoot through paper? If they are shooting good for you now, what does it matter what the dynamic spine is? My personal opinion of those archery computer programs is that they are nice for sight tapes and initial selections. I checked your set up with the Easton downloadable calc, and while it tops out at 160 grains your arrows were still fine, so I can't imagine adding another 25 grains *inside* the shaft is going to affect anything. That is it right there, if you had a 185 grain head hanging off the front of the shaft it effects the dynamic spine completely differently than if the majority of your weight in behind the front of the shaft. And if you are intending to try and duplicate for a hunting set up, PDP and Gold Tip make weight screws that will thread into the backs of any inserts as long as the shaft diameter will allow, then just use the combo of screws and your chosen broadheads to get your weight back. Have fun.


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## 6APPEAL

After reading the Ashby reports I thought I would experiment some. Ordered up some Grizzly Sticks and field point test pack. Doing bareshaft testing now. I will say that my Black Ice really seems to like shooting the extra weight. I really needed to step up in weight anyway, since my Dad wants me to go out to AZ to hunt Elk or Mule Deer with him. 
John


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## Koorsboom

> I will say that my Black Ice really seems to like shooting the extra weight


Please give more details about your set-up and the results ... draw length, and weight, arrow length, weight, FOC, speed, etc?

I don't want to repeat what has already been tried :wink:


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## 6APPEAL

Koorsboom said:


> Please give more details about your set-up and the results ... draw length, and weight, arrow length, weight, FOC, speed, etc?
> 
> I don't want to repeat what has already been tried :wink:


Will do as I test out this new set-up. It will probably take a couple of more weeks. Gotta squeeze in some Turkey hunting, so that will take away some testing time.:wink:
John


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## Whitey375

OK, well.., I am done testing. Final numbers on the set up.
-27.75" Carbon Express Maxima Hunter 450's, with the obligatory nock collar
-3 fletched with Vanetech 3", haven't decided on a wrap yet though.
-50 grain Gold Tip brass insert weight
-466 grains (+6 grains if I wrap them.)
-16.32% FOC with field points, 16.97% FOC with BH's
-100 grain Magnus Stinger 4 blade
-Should be around 92 foot pounds (*)depending on velocity, my chronograph is out of commission because my son wanted to measure how fast his fist was...umm..yeah...
(*)If velocity is 290 it will be 87.8 and if velocity is 305 it will be 96, so I am thinking it was doing 297 with 450's at 69lbs, at 73lbs should be a bit more will chrono tonight at the shop and report back.
I was just shooting at 60 yards and a 10 arrow group comprised of field points and broadheads were all in one spot of a 5 spot blue and white NFAA target. Most were inside the 4 ring.


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## Aggieland

Good job ******. That will be a great setup. We welcomed our second son Zayne into the world yesterday. Everyone is well, now I can get busy testing!!!


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## Whitey375

Casey, Congrats man. I guess he finally decided he was done cooking this time.

As far as the arrow set up, I couldn't get a heavier, ie higher FOC, arrow to shoot with broadheads on the arrows I am shooting. I may fart around with some BG 100's if I find some "extra" money, but I am almost tired of testing. I just want to shoot my bow now.


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## Alpha Burnt

Havent shot it through paper, but it shoots on targets good!


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## Alpha Burnt

OH my gosh, just had an arrow go through my forearm! J/K


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## bullfisher

Congrats Aggie:darkbeer:


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## Rockyhud

Congrats Aggie. By the time your sons start shooting archery equipment you'll have long ago figured out all of what works (heavier weight, higher FOC, etc) and doesn't and they will surely benefit from all your wisdom and efforts. You'll also have your hands full with family matters for a while too, but it's worth it, trust me.

I got email telling me my Gold Tip BG 100s are on the way. I'm anxious to see how these shoot with all the weight options I'll be able to try out. If I have time and decent weather this weekend I hope to do some testing and get to the same point as ****** and get my new hunting setup figured out, or at least closer to it. I'll post up anything I learn, whenever that happens.

I'm hoping I can get front end weight somewhere in the 175 to 200 grain range to work well with these shafts as I'm thinking about using the Samurai single bevel heads for hunting. I've been using 100 gr Magnus Stingers up to now and they've shot and performed well. Now I'm thinking these Samurai heads might take performance to the next level for me and hopefully fly like the Stingers since they are so similar.


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## Whitey375

Alpha Burnt, You're funny. lol.

Rocky, Good luck man, I am confident that you'll end up with a winner. Be careful with the constant in and out with the brass screws, they end up kinda stripping out after a few ins and outs. When they did that I would just put a drop of super glue on the end of the allen wrench and stuff it in until it hooked up and leave it set for a few, always came right out. Only build a few at first as well, that way you are not burning money.

BTW, end velocity 297fps is about 91 foot pounds, I think I'll take it.


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## Macker

how can i add weight to my inserts on my 2317's? the gold tip weights are too big. i was thinking of tapping the back of the inserts?


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## Macker

ttt


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## Whitey375

Macker, Are they not already punched/threaded through? If not, it should be easy enough to drill and tap through the insert as long as you are careful, plus it is only aluminum. When you do check into the PDP weights, the ones I have seen are considerably smaller in diameter. There is always the route of getting an 8-32 cap screw also, it works, but, it is kind of a pain if you can't get to the back of your inserts. The easiest way to find out where you want to be with front end weight is to use 8-32 set screws of varying length. To save you some time, you aren't going to notice anything shorter than 3/4". Good luck.


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## B3AV3R

Wow, I never knew so many people were interested in this stuff. It really has got me thinking...

I think I'm going to experiment with some CX Maxima 3D Select 350's and Slick Trick 175's. It should put me just over 280fps with 19% FOC. 

I may play around with a few other options using OnTarget 2. I'd like to get into the 260-270fps range, as this has always been within my personal comfort range for trajectory vs. forgiveness.


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## Macker

Whitey375 said:


> Macker, Are they not already punched/threaded through? If not, it should be easy enough to drill and tap through the insert as long as you are careful, plus it is only aluminum. When you do check into the PDP weights, the ones I have seen are considerably smaller in diameter. There is always the route of getting an 8-32 cap screw also, it works, but, it is kind of a pain if you can't get to the back of your inserts. The easiest way to find out where you want to be with front end weight is to use 8-32 set screws of varying length. To save you some time, you aren't going to notice anything shorter than 3/4". Good luck.


******,
the gold tip weights are the proper size, but the aluminum inserts have the back end almost enclosed but for a small hole.....i think i'll try to tap it.
i'm interested in your set screw idea as well......may have to look into that. thanks for the help!
Jeff


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## Macker

got an 8/32 tap and drilled the inserts all the way through........worked slick, so now i can load up the front. going to have 86 grains with the insert and weight, then 100 grain tip. ontarget says 12% foc. total arrow weight is 626 grains. should be interesting to see how it'll fly with flex fletch 360's.


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## Macker

******,
how heavy do you think i could go with a 2317 at the point? comparing to how heavy everyone goes for indoor set-ups, i would think fairly heavy as well. what are your thoughts.


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## Alpha Burnt

If you will read Easton charts, on the bottom left portion, they suggest you add 3# to your true draw weight for every 25 gn you are over the listed point weight in your column. I believe 2317 are .300 spine, so using your adjusted or projected bow weight- you could figure out a group they should be ok. You could probably add 100 gn to insert and 100 gn point if youre shooting less than 65# with most bows.


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## Macker

Alpha Burnt said:


> If you will read Easton charts, on the bottom left portion, they suggest you add 3# to your true draw weight for every 25 gn you are over the listed point weight in your column. I believe 2317 are .300 spine, so using your adjusted or projected bow weight- you could figure out a group they should be ok. You could probably add 100 gn to insert and 100 gn point if youre shooting less than 65# with most bows.


thank you, appreciate it.
Jeff


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## Rockyhud

I got my GTBG 100s Thursday and got them cut to length (29") and inserts glued in today. The finished weight with insert, 2.1" Fusion vanes set with the heel about 1/2" from the end and nock is 352 gr each. I then weighed two of them with the 200 and 250 gr test tips and the weights came in at 550 with 200 gr tips and 600 with 250 gr tips. The Gold Tip FOC calculator gives me 14.81% FOC with 200 gr tip, 17.45% with 250 gr tip and 19.67% with 300 gr tip.

The weather appears to be cooperating today and tomorrow, with a forecast of 57 with 7 mph winds tomorrow. I hope this is correct, especially the wind, so I can take these outside and do some real world test shooting.

BTW, I don't remember if I saw mention of this broadhead in this thread or elsewhere, but I came across another single bevel broadhead maker (Abowyer - http://www.abowyer.com/) selling several versions with great similarity to the Ashby and others that Alaska Bowhunting Supply sells. The quality looks to be quite good and the prices are considerably less, like $48 for a 3-pack of any of their broadheads. These are all glue-on types at this time but they're supposed to have a screw-on version of at least one version coming out sometime this year. These come in weights ranging from 140 to 215 with most at 175. They also have glue-on adapters - 25, 30 and 43 gr adapters available in aluminum and 75, 100 and 125 gr adapters available in steel. These, regardless of weight, run $0.60 each plus shipping. They also have titanium adapters weighing 35 grain 5/16” titanium inserts for when you need the strength of steel with the weight of aluminum. The titanium adapters are considerably more - $19 plus shipping for 3-pack.

This isn't a sale pitch, just passing on what appears to be another good source of single bevel broadheads. Depending on which weight test tip(s) appear to work best with my setup I'm seriously thinking of buys one or two 3-packs of Abowyer broadheads to sit up front on my GTBG 100s.


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## Whitey375

Rocky, are you sure your FOC percentages are correct? Just seems like a hell of a lot of weight for so little (200gr for 14%). I only have 165 grains up front and I am getting 17%, of course that is with an arrow that is 1.25" shorter. Have you tried an arrow at 28"? Anyways I hope it works out, and please keep us posted on the results. Also thanks for the heads up on the broadheads.

I was given a pack of 100 grain Hades broadheads (Grim Reaper maybe?) yesterday and shot them today on the advice of the guy who gave them to me. Can't say as I have ever had a robin hood with a broadhead yet, but I got awful close, ....at 40 yards! One blade cut the nock and collar in two and sliced through the first 4 inches of shaft. Interestingly enough, I missed the fletches, weird.


----------



## Macker

what size vanes or feathers do you all use? i think someone said the greater the foc, the smaller the vane you can use.......is this correct or does it vary?


----------



## Macker

ttt


----------



## Koorsboom

> We welcomed our second son Zayne into the world yesterday


Congratulations Aggieland ... they make life so woth it ... 

I was playing around with On target yesterday and entered some extreme FOC figures into the programme. According to On Target any .300" spine arrow with about 400gr on the tip should spine correctly out of my 75# Elite E-500. Funny, because the .300" arrows I have tested are all WAY under spined.

Are these results an inherent fault with the programme because it may not have been written to deal with extreme FOC arrows, or what else can explain this anomality?

Theory and practice defenitaly does not meet in this case ...



> i think someone said the greater the foc, the smaller the vane you can use.......


I also read this somewhere (somewhere else than this thread that is) andit would be interesting to hear about some actual test results.


----------



## Koorsboom

One more thing ... 

According to the On Target database the CX Rebel hunters weigh 13.something gr/inch.

When I deduct all the weight added to my Rebel Hunter shafts (tip, insert, glued in weight, nock and fletches) I get a shaft weight of only 8.3 gr/inch.

It is 7590 shafts with built in weight forward ...

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## 6APPEAL

Koorsboom said:


> Please give more details about your set-up and the results ... draw length, and weight, arrow length, weight, FOC, speed, etc?
> 
> I don't want to repeat what has already been tried :wink:


I had to work in the shop all weekend, so I decided to finish up my testing. Here's my final numbers on the set up.
-27.25" Alaskan Grizzly Stick shaft.
-3 fletched with right helical Blazers and wrap.
-125 grain field point (Samurai Single Bevel Broadheads).
-566.5 grains
-16.1% FOC 
-KE comes in at 69.49 foot pounds.

Bow is an 07 Diamond Black Ice, 68#, 28.5" draw. Shoots this setup 235 fps. Bow is got super quite (not that it was loud anyway), which was the 1st thing noticed by co-workers. Just for kicks I shot the setup with a new Quest (G5) Primal (70#, 29"). The Primal shot the setup @ 258 fps (83.75 KE), nice and probably my next bow.

I struggled with some form issues caused by an old broken shoulder for a couple of days, which really hampered the bare shaft testing. I got past that, but could not get a longer shaft or higher field point weight to work. Just not enough spine to get a higher FOC, huge left paper tears, and 6"+ to the right at 20 yards (fletched vs bare shaft) with any field point weight over 125. The 125 gives a slight up, left tear and shoots within a inch bare shaft. At that point I called it done! Need to get to an outdoor range to do longer than 20 yard walkback tune.

This set-up hits super hard. Drives over double the depth into a target vs my target arrows. Stuck the field point out the back side of a new Reinheart 3d deer insert from 20 yards.:darkbeer:
John


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## Koorsboom

Thanks John

So what I read is that if I want to shoot a Grzly Stick with about 200 to 300r on the tip out of a 75# bow I should shoot the Safari as the other shafts would all be too weak ...


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## Aggieland

At the ATA show Dr. Asby told me that with EFOC you can use smaller vanes on your shafts.. Also he said 1/8'' in front of the fletching wrap a really small piece of car pinstripping that causes a disturbance in the air around the arrow allowing your vanes to work better.. :mg: crazy stuff man...


----------



## 6APPEAL

Koorsboom said:


> Thanks John
> 
> So what I read is that if I want to shoot a Grzly Stick with about 200 to 300r on the tip out of a 75# bow I should shoot the Safari as the other shafts would all be too weak ...


IMHO, yes. I believe you would need to shoot the Safari shaft. I just could not get the Grizzly shaft to work at near max draw weights with the 150+ grain field points. With my bow turned all the way down (57#) and 125 grain fp, the shaft was actually a bit too stiff. The bare shafts were left of the fletched at 20 yards by about 2-3".
John


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## Macker

Aggieland said:


> At the ATA show Dr. Asby told me that with EFOC you can use smaller vanes on your shafts.. Also he said 1/8'' in front of the fletching wrap a really small piece of car pinstripping that causes a disturbance in the air around the arrow allowing your vanes to work better.. :mg: crazy stuff man...


could you explain this a little more? this does sound crazy, but he is the expert!


----------



## Rockyhud

******, yeah those were correct FOC - copied directly from the calculator page. I used 29" length, 10.6 gpi weight, nock 11 gr, fletching 24 gr, fletching COG 1.25" and the three different tip weights. I haven't measure this real world but based on how close my Maxima 350s calculated to real world I'd bet they're real close. As to shorter shafts, I don't want any less length as that would put the broadhead right in the middle of the shelf/sight window and I don't feel comfortable with that.

Macker, you're correct, to a certain extent, on higher FOC needing less vane. I think there's a caveat in that you wouldn't want to use a low profile vane that would be suitable for target/3D arrows to stabilize a hunting arrows with fixed broadhead. Supposedly small feathers such as the Gateway 3" Rayzr would be suitable as are Blazer and 2" Fusions, due to their high profile that catch enough air to do the job. I fletched my new GTBG 100s with 2" Fusions with a fairly aggressive right helical and they flew very nice, at least with the field point test tips. I've used right helical Blazers on my Maxima 350s tipped with 100 gr Magnus Stingers and they fly exactly like the same weight field tips. I have little doubt the Fusions will stabilize these heavier arrows with broadheads.

I got to shoot the GTBG 100s Sunday - nice temps and just a little breeze. I shot them with the following - 2 each with 175 gr, 2 each with 200 gr and 2 each with 250 gr test tips. The 175 gr tipped came off the bow with a slight 
right flip but the 200 and 250 gr tipped arrows left the bow essentially straight - almost no perceptible tail wagging. I don't have the ability or equipment to do paper tuning so besides my own observations I placed my wife several yards behind me and had her watch the launch and overall flight. Her observations were the same as mine.

I also made the observations that the heavier tipped arrows tended to group a little tighter than the lighter ones - as others have noted before. At 30 yards the 175 and 200 gr tipped arrows hit very close to the same point on the target where the 250 gr tipped arrows tended to hit about 2-3" lower, which is understandable. The 200 and 250 gr tipped arrows tended to group tighter than the 175 gr tipped arrows - almost Robin Hooded a few. I also noticed greater penetration of my bag target as there were some arrows, particularly those with 200 and 250 gr tips that protruded slightly out the back. This is the first time I've seen this. I've shot quite a lot of Maxima 350s weighing 390 gr into it and not one ever did this.

From these observations it appears several of the Abowyer broadheads and glue-on adapters might make the short list for me. I'm going to call Abowyer this week to ask some questions - which broadheads they recommend, if some fly better than others - and hopefully find out more about the screw-on Brown Bear such as cost, weight and pros/cons of the stainless steel vs carbon steel. I've also been checking out Grizzly 2-blade and Grizzly El Grande 2-blade broadheads. These come with single bevel edges and Tanto tips and have a lot of history and fans who rave about their excellent flight and penetration characteristics.

I'll be back to post more as I get more data.


----------



## Macker

great info, Rockyhud. i shot tonight and had favorable results with 3" flex fletch vanes. I am shooting 2317's with 211 grains total on the front at 30" long. First time shooting with these outside and they flew suprisingly accurate for me out to 60. I used to shoot no more than 400 grains with a low foc and never grouped this well, so needless to say i am pretty psyched about the high foc arrows. They are at 13% now, but i would like to see how high i can go, so i have a test pack of tips coming from Alaska Bowhunting Supply. Can't wait to get them and try them out. 

Rockyhud, i look forward to your findings on the Abowyer broadheads, as i am interested in them and the ABS ones.


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## Aggieland

Macker said:


> could you explain this a little more? this does sound crazy, but he is the expert!


Well while I was at the alaskan bowhunter booth I was asking Dr. Asby questions about all this stuff and the topic came up of using the really small 2" Feathers to increase FOC and the fact that with a really high FOC you dont need as much fletching. Then he said to me and i could be wrong on my measurment but im almost certain ... " buy a small roll of the really small pin stripping that goes on autos and make one wrap around your arrow 1/8th of an inch in front of your vanes.. And he said the measurment had to be exact, this causes an air disturbance that the vanes can use to steer the arrow.. I was like cool and he was serious but I have never tried it... Honestly after talking with the man I can't walk away and say he might be wrong or he has some theorys because the guy really knows his crap and if you started talking about something that he knew wouldent work or has not worked in his testing he straight up tells you it wont work and why.. I was impressed.. Its hard to believe thinking back that a guy could put that much time into something like he has......


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## Macker

Aggieland said:


> Well while I was at the alaskan bowhunter booth I was asking Dr. Asby questions about all this stuff and the topic came up of using the really small 2" Feathers to increase FOC and the fact that with a really high FOC you dont need as much fletching. Then he said to me and i could be wrong on my measurment but im almost certain ... " buy a small roll of the really small pin stripping that goes on autos and make one wrap around your arrow 1/8th of an inch in front of your vanes.. And he said the measurment had to be exact, this causes an air disturbance that the vanes can use to steer the arrow.. I was like cool and he was serious but I have never tried it... Honestly after talking with the man I can't walk away and say he might be wrong or he has some theorys because the guy really knows his crap and if you started talking about something that he knew wouldent work or has not worked in his testing he straight up tells you it wont work and why.. I was impressed.. Its hard to believe thinking back that a guy could put that much time into something like he has......


Thanks! i have been reading some of his test results and am impressed with all the time he has put into this subject. i may have to try this pinstripe deal sometime. 
This efoc really has me intrigued! Great stuff.


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## Macker

ttt


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## Rockyhud

Well, I pulled the trigger on what broadhead I'll be using. I called 3 Rivers Archery and talked one of their tech guys about broadheads and screw-in adapters. I was under the impression there were two different screw shank sizes - 5/16 and 11/32. These sizes actually refer to the diameter of the tapered portion of the adapter that goes into a glue-on broadhead and that most require 11/32. I told him about how my arrows performed with the various test tips and he agreed 200 gr, +/- a little, would probably work best for my setup.

I had considered the Abowyer Brown Bear broadheads but after reading more of the Ashby reports and seeing the Grizzly heads continually coming in at the top of his list, plus the higher cost for Abowyer heads, I decided to go that route. I also read several more reviews on various forums about how they performed in flight and when they're shot into game. There's scarcely a negative comment about these to be found.

So, I ordered a 6-pack of Grizzly El Grande broadheads and dozen pack of long alloy broadhead adapters. The broadhead weighs 160 gr and the adapter weighs 42 gr so these, combined with a little epoxy glue, should weigh just a little over 200 gr total, probably 205-210 gr. This should produce arrows weighing 555-560 gr with FOC in the 15% range. I still have the Gold Tip weights to I can still experiment with this if I want but based on how well the 200 gr test tipped arrows flew and penetrated the bag target I kind of doubt these will be needed.

They don't have the Grizzlies in stock right now but are due to receive them right after the first of April. I can't wait to put them together and shoot them to see how they perform. Not a bad thing as I need to spend some time deciding where I'll be using them. Hopefully I'll get to bloody them on several game animals this year.


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## Aggieland

*Rocky man thats awsome News!!*

I closed a deal today myself.. Needless to say I have been busy busy with work and the new addition to the family and of course my 17 month old :mg: So today I did some talking and figuring etc etc. Ended up ordering me some Easton Full Metal Jacket arrows in .300 spine cut to 25.5" excluding nock.. I also had the sell instore the 75 grain brass incert on these shafts and im still planning on using the Xbow Trick from Slick trick at 175 grains and a 5 grain broadhead adapter ring.. So my total arrow weight after fletching etc should be right at 580 grains.. with a EFOC of 18.7-19 %.... If my calculations are correct the arrow should be leaving the bow at around 270-280fps and pretty much blow through anything walking in North America haha


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## Koorsboom

> One more thing ...
> 
> According to the On Target database the CX Rebel hunters weigh 13.something gr/inch.
> 
> When I deduct all the weight added to my Rebel Hunter shafts (tip, insert, glued in weight, nock and fletches) I get a shaft weight of only 8.3 gr/inch.
> 
> It is 7590 shafts with built in weight forward ...
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


My apologies to the software ... I had the weight of my inserts all wrong. Also it is Archer's Advantage I have been using (got confused as have the two programmes on different computers).

What I still find interesting though is that according to the software a .300" spine arrow with 400gr on the front should work fine at 75#, but that is not what I find in real life.

Can it be that the algorythms used in these programmes do not fully provide for EFOC arrows?


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## Macker

Rockyhud said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger on what broadhead I'll be using. I called 3 Rivers Archery and talked one of their tech guys about broadheads and screw-in adapters. I was under the impression there were two different screw shank sizes - 5/16 and 11/32. These sizes actually refer to the diameter of the tapered portion of the adapter that goes into a glue-on broadhead and that most require 11/32. I told him about how my arrows performed with the various test tips and he agreed 200 gr, +/- a little, would probably work best for my setup.
> 
> I had considered the Abowyer Brown Bear broadheads but after reading more of the Ashby reports and seeing the Grizzly heads continually coming in at the top of his list, plus the higher cost for Abowyer heads, I decided to go that route. I also read several more reviews on various forums about how they performed in flight and when they're shot into game. There's scarcely a negative comment about these to be found.
> 
> So, I ordered a 6-pack of Grizzly El Grande broadheads and dozen pack of long alloy broadhead adapters. The broadhead weighs 160 gr and the adapter weighs 42 gr so these, combined with a little epoxy glue, should weigh just a little over 200 gr total, probably 205-210 gr. This should produce arrows weighing 555-560 gr with FOC in the 15% range. I still have the Gold Tip weights to I can still experiment with this if I want but based on how well the 200 gr test tipped arrows flew and penetrated the bag target I kind of doubt these will be needed.
> 
> They don't have the Grizzlies in stock right now but are due to receive them right after the first of April. I can't wait to put them together and shoot them to see how they perform. Not a bad thing as I need to spend some time deciding where I'll be using them. Hopefully I'll get to bloody them on several game animals this year.


i read this post, Rockyhud, and looked on ebay and found a new 6 pack for $18, so i bought them. They are 190 grains, but i don't know what adapters to get.......i would like to get the lightest ones, but don't know anything about them. How long do i need and what size? I shoot 2217's.


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## Macker

ttt


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## bullfisher

Well I ordered some slipstream 70's today from forgebow.com. Their a parallel to taper back to parallel shaft. Steve is the owner and great to talk with, he does not recomend going over a 100 grn head as the shaft has a 15% FOC alone. The cool thing is you can really costomize your spine depending on how much you cut off the front or back. Steve says a 28'' arrow at 70 lbs with a 100 grn tip will be fine, and that they can be as stiff as 240 spine. We shall see!


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## Aggieland

bullfisher said:


> Well I ordered some slipstream 70's today from forgebow.com. Their a parallel to taper back to parallel shaft. Steve is the owner and great to talk with, he does not recomend going over a 100 grn head as the shaft has a 15% FOC alone. The cool thing is you can really costomize your spine depending on how much you cut off the front or back. Steve says a 28'' arrow at 70 lbs with a 100 grn tip will be fine, and that they can be as stiff as 240 spine. We shall see!


I hope they work for ya.. Those shafts seem to have more taper and weight fwd than any of the others I have seen. I wonder sometimes where these tapered shaft builders get their % FOC calculations because If you take the AMG shafts I have it takes lots and lots of weight up front to get any increase in FOC. I dont believe they really increase FOC at all but having a tapered shaft is good for arrow flight and penetration.. I guess what i'm saying is these arrows seem to have the same wall thickness in the front and the back, if its not the same it's just a few grains difference. Say you gain 10 grains from the center of the arrow to the front more than the back of the arrow. Thats not really enough weight to make a huge difference in FOC maybe 1 or 2%.. To get my arrows to 19% im going to have to have 255 grains up front. Anyway just thought I would keep things rolling with that observation..


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## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> I hope they work for ya.. Those shafts seem to have more taper and weight fwd than any of the others I have seen. I wonder sometimes where these tapered shaft builders get their % FOC calculations because If you take the AMG shafts I have it takes lots and lots of weight up front to get any increase in FOC. I dont believe they really increase FOC at all but having a tapered shaft is good for arrow flight and penetration.. I guess what i'm saying is these arrows seem to have the same wall thickness in the front and the back, if its not the same it's just a few grains difference. Say you gain 10 grains from the center of the arrow to the front more than the back of the arrow. Thats not really enough weight to make a huge difference in FOC maybe 1 or 2%.. To get my arrows to 19% im going to have to have 255 grains up front. Anyway just thought I would keep things rolling with that observation..


I agree! thats why I went with these shafts heres the comparison page. 
http://forgebow.com/arrows/arrowcomparison.jpg


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## Rockyhud

Sounds like a great buy on the broadheads Jeff.

Due to the fact you're shooting aluminum shafts you might want to talk to the tech folks at 3Rivers so they can guide you in making the best choice.

The description for the adapters I bought says they are for carbon or aluminum arrows. I decided on the 42 gr 11/32 long alloy adapters they sell. The tech guy I spoke with told me all adapters, made of steel or aluminum, have the same screw thread size and that the 5/16 and 11/32 sizes refer to the diameter of the front part that goes into the broadhead ferrel. He also said most broadhead ferrels are 11/32 inside diameter (a few are 5/16) and that using a 5/16 adapter inside an 11/32 ferrel would cause the adapter to fit deeper/further up inside the ferrel, causing the broadhead to not seat correctly against the arrow tip insert when it's screwed on.

Besides the weight difference, the 42 gr 11/32 long alloy adapter has a longer front part that goes into the broadhead so it provides more contact for better adhesion and retention strength, where the 26 grain 11/32 short alloy adapter has a shorter front part which doesn't have as much contact area and thus theoretically less adhesion and retention strength.

So, basically if you want or need to add front tip weight the steel adapters are a good choice. If you want to keep your weight down use the alloy adapters. I asked about any real difference in strength between steel and alloy adapters, like if the broadhead struck a rock or other large and heavy object, and they conceded the steel would be slightly stronger. But he went on to give me some examples that this shouldn't be a real concern as he's shot arrows against such objects, straight on and at angles, using alloy adapters and the adapters haven't been damaged or bent as a result. That gave me the confidence to go with the alloy adapters.

Hope that helps.


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## Alpha Burnt

Anyone been able to find the 92 gn brass inserts Victory makes for vx22s anywhere? I believe they would be money for my GT Pro Series 22s cut 28" with 100 gn point-65# w/ 2" trueflights riding on the back. I emailed Victory and they listed 3 manufacturers, but I could not find them in stock.


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## Alpha Burnt

GT pro 22s are .300 ID and .300 spine at 7.3 gpi.


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## Alpha Burnt

If anyone knows where to find the 92 gn inserts and the new GT HD pin nocks, that would be the best option for me! Thanks.


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## Macker

Thanks, Rocky! i appreciate your help. i was thinking that the long would have more adhesion and seat further into the broadhead, so i'll probably get those. 

i got my test pack of tips from alaska bowhunting supply and was able to find the right combo for my arrows, so it looks like the 190 grizzly el grande, a 45 grain steel adapter, and the 36 grain insert will give me 271 up front. this should give me almost 18% foc. 

this is an awful heavy arrow at 742, but the best i could do with a 2317 aluminum. i do like how more accurate i have been with the heavy front and how quiet the bow has become, but i may look at the grizzly sticks or the forge arrows to get my total weight down, but maintain the high foc.

thanks again for your help, Rocky.


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## Macker

bullfisher said:


> I agree! thats why I went with these shafts heres the comparison page.
> http://forgebow.com/arrows/arrowcomparison.jpg


Bullfisher, let me know what you think about these arrows.....i am interested in them. looks like a way for me to shoot light, but with efoc.


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## Koorsboom

Bullfisher, when you've managed to do all your tests please give us as much detail as possible on the arrows (total weight, FOC, draw weight and draw length you shoot them at, etc).

I am still looking for a shaft that would give me a total arrow weight af 650gr or a little more, with FOC as close to 30% as possible and be correctly spined out of my 75# bow.


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## Whitey375

Koors, I called Forge and talked to Steve, I think, and while he seems to make great products, they just aren't going to get it for me. I just can't bring myself to shoot an IBO weight arrow at game out of a 70# bow. So I think the will be too light for you as well. I think 30% will be out of any spine range for a 75# compound, unless you want to shoot titanium arrows. The only arrow out there I think would come close to spining out for you would be some Gold Tip fat shaft target arrows, Triple X's I think, that have a .150 spine.

Macker, what bow are you shooting? Specs?

AlphaBurnt, I don't know where to get that, but I thought about going with the Victory HV 300's with a stack of weight up front. They told me that the HV's were probably to brittle for elk hunting. The standard hunting Victory's are nothing special IMO, so I didn't bother pursuing that venue. The Gold Tip brass weights will fit those shafts, and as far as the pin nocks go, order directly from them if you can.

I switched to 3" feathers, and a 25 grain weight ring on my arrows, they shoot just as good and have boosted my FOC to 17.8%. Total weight jumped a bit to around 485, and the speed dropped to around 290, but if they step out, they'll get waxed for sure.


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## Macker

Whitey375 said:


> Koors, I called Forge and talked to Steve, I think, and while he seems to make great products, they just aren't going to get it for me. I just can't bring myself to shoot an IBO weight arrow at game out of a 70# bow. So I think the will be too light for you as well. I think 30% will be out of any spine range for a 75# compound, unless you want to shoot titanium arrows. The only arrow out there I think would come close to spining out for you would be some Gold Tip fat shaft target arrows, Triple X's I think, that have a .150 spine.
> 
> Macker, what bow are you shooting? Specs?
> 
> AlphaBurnt, I don't know where to get that, but I thought about going with the Victory HV 300's with a stack of weight up front. They told me that the HV's were probably to brittle for elk hunting. The standard hunting Victory's are nothing special IMO, so I didn't bother pursuing that venue. The Gold Tip brass weights will fit those shafts, and as far as the pin nocks go, order directly from them if you can.
> 
> I switched to 3" feathers, and a 25 grain weight ring on my arrows, they shoot just as good and have boosted my FOC to 17.8%. Total weight jumped a bit to around 485, and the speed dropped to around 290, but if they step out, they'll get waxed for sure.


******,
2009 x force gx6
50-63 lbs
29.25 draw length
30" 2317's


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## bullfisher

I will do a full report on the slipstreams for sure! Koors, like ****** said, thier too light for what your trying to achieve with 8.0 gpi and no head over 100grn allowed (though I'm still gonna try a 125). My finished wieght wont even be 400 grn which is still too light for me but we'll see how they penetrate next to other arrows. However, if they do what thier designed to do and fly well then thier a great way to boost penetration and flight characteristics from lighter faster arrows!


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## Rockyhud

Sounds like those Slipstreams might be decent for smaller game like whitetails and pronghorn and such. I was wondering how much weight you could attach up front but you've answered that.

To compliment the Grizzly El Grande broadheads I called 3Rivers and had them add a dozen 200 gr target tips to my order so I can practice with the heavier arrows with either tip through the coming months before elk season. I can't wait for these to arrive so I can get them dialed in to my single pin sight.


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## Whitey375

Macker, Have you thought about maybe switching to carbons? I don't know if you have a pile of 2317's in the garage or whatever, and it doesn't make financial sense to switch for you. But your set up is prime for some 29" Axis 400's, or even 340's. You could throw some of the 50 grain brass HIT inserts with a 100 or 125 grain head and be well into the 15% range when fletched with Blazers.


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## Macker

Whitey375 said:


> Macker, Have you thought about maybe switching to carbons? I don't know if you have a pile of 2317's in the garage or whatever, and it doesn't make financial sense to switch for you. But your set up is prime for some 29" Axis 400's, or even 340's. You could throw some of the 50 grain brass HIT inserts with a 100 or 125 grain head and be well into the 15% range when fletched with Blazers.


I have super slim 400's but they are too weak, i don't know if 340's would be stiff enough, although ontarget says so. the 2317's are .300 spine and shoot bullet holes even with just a 125 tip, so if i did get fmj's, i would probably get the 300s just to be safe.
I have been looking at the slipstreams and grizzly sticks because i like the tapered shaft concept.
Thanks for the advice, i am definitely going to think about it.
Jeff


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## Aggieland

When I talked to Easton on the phone they said their Static spine was tested at 28" so just a heads up for you guys.. I know some companys test them at 30".. Keep us posted!


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## Macker

well, i bit the bullet and ordered a half dozen fmj 300's. just need to get some brass inserts and i'll be all set. got some razyrs coming too, so we'll see how they will do as well.


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## Rockyhud

Not a lot to add to what's already been discussed but I did get a chance to shoot through a chronograph at Sportsman's Warehouse today. They also checked the draw weight - set to 63 lbs like I thought. They also weighed the GTBG 100s. Their grain scale was within 2 grain of mine; their scale showing the total weight as 552 gr and mine showing the weight at 554.

Anyway, I took two of my Maxima 350s with 100 gr tips and two of my GTBG 100s with 200 gr tips. The Maximas were still shooting at 290 fps , like before, and the GTBG 100s were shooting 248-249 fps consistently. The momentum for the Maxima 350s calculates to be 16.157 lb-ft/sec where the GTBG 100s calculate to be 19.671. That's almost an 18% increase in momentum.

And man do they group tight. If I had been shooting broadheads I would have been slicing vanes on every shot. I think I'm gonna like shooting these GTBG 100s with 200 gr tips or broadheads. This combo will have a calculated FOC of 14.49% which I think will work well and if I want to bump that I can add 20-50 grains of insert weight to bump it to 15.61% or 17.15% for 220 and 250 gr tips respectively.

I can't wait for my Grizzly broadheads to arrive so I can start shooting them.


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## Macker

Hey Bullfisher......did you get the slipsteam's yet?


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## bullfisher

Yes macker they did last night! I put one together and cut it a little long just in case. I was told by steve at forge to cut about 3" off the back and 1" off the front to achieve my spine and length. I just got home from work and havn't played yet. But last night I did one arrow and E taped the back to the same wieght and length as my blazers and did a bare shaft comparison to my current arrows GT 7595. I started with a 100 grn tip and got an instant bullet hole. Keep in mind that steve dosent reccomend a 125 so when I threw one on I grit my teeth a little. BAM! bullet holes! I was not expecting that. I thought for sure I'd have weak spine tears.
The FOC on this arrow so far is about 17% a far cry from the 30% advertised. In fact I dont see how they can Achieve 15% bare shaft as also advertised, but I suppose it all depends on what end and how much you cut off. My finished weight is 390grn. A little light for me but I think these shafts can handle quite a bit so after I check the spine and play with them a little more I'll have some better info.


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## Whitey375

Bullfisher, that 30% is coming from the point of view of even if the arrow balanced out right at the insert, the FOC would be 50% if measured conventionally. So based on that, Steve at Forge and the guy from AMG, effectively just double whatever the AMO standard says. So both you and I have 34% FOC according to them....

I again abandoned the feathers, and went back to Blazers, still 17.3%, they shoot the same POI, although 5 grains heavier now. If I am shooting right I can keep 6 arrows in the 4 ring of a blue and white 5 spot target at 60 yards everytime, so this setup works. I figure now I am going to start stockpiling arrows and broadheads.


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## Koorsboom

I finally got around to building and testing two extreme FOC arrows today.

A reminder of what the "ultimate" hunting arrow is I am trying to build ... total arrow weight of 650gr to reach Dr Ashby's bone breaking threshold, FOC of 30% or more (in terms of Dr Ashby's 2008 work) and arrow speed of 230 to 250f/s (to balance decent arrow speed with two blade single bevel broad heads) out of a 70 to 75# bow (I prefer lower draw weight to increase stability and smooth, slow drawing).

This is what I got so far:

CX Rebel Hunter 75-90 @ 27" with 279gr at the tip and total weight of 655gr that gives 19% FOC and travels at 245f/s.

Easton Epic Realtree 300 @ 27" with 360gr at the tip and total weight of 666gr that gives 27% FOC and travels at 244f/s.

Both arrows spine correctly at 77# draw weight. At the moment I can live with the higher draw weight, but I will be upgrading soon to a Strother bow that should give me similar resultss at 63 to 67# (any other modern high speed bow will do the same, but I like the Strothers bows).

There is a good corolation between the actual results I achieved and predictions using Archer's Advantag. My next step therefore is to put 440gr in front of a Gold Tip Series 22 shaft. According to Archer's Advantage that would give me an arrow weighing 650gr with FOC of 32% that will spine correctly out of my 77# bow.

I am very excited about the prelimenary results after paper tuning my set-up this afternoon. I will be group and broad head testing the arrows tomorrow and will give feedback on the results.


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## Whitey375

Koors, sounds great man. Just be leary of what those computer programs suggest as "ok". Just because what we are doing is so far from the accepted norm for modern equipment and its parameters. Example, I tried to run some heavy front weight numbers through Easton's spine calculator and it fed me 600 spine arrows. Far from ok IMO. I really hope it works out for you though, just be careful man. As long as they bullet hole through paper all the way out to 20 yards you should be fine though.


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## Whitey375

By the way I hooked up with the local butcher shop and got a line on some bison and beef cattle shoulder blades, should be getting some next week. I figure I will set up some kind of test with different arrows with the shoulder blades held up to my 18-n-1 for a firm support. Maybe wet phone books too? I will try and post some pictures too. Any suggestions?


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## Koorsboom

> Just be leary of what those computer programs suggest as "ok".


I was worried about the same thing. I therefore first found shafts that performed as I wanted them to and then put the data into the programme. I was surprised to see that the real word and computer predictions matched fairly closely. I also asked someone on one of the South African forums to run the data through one of the other archery software programmes and the results were the same.


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## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> By the way I hooked up with the local butcher shop and got a line on some bison and beef cattle shoulder blades, should be getting some next week. I figure I will set up some kind of test with different arrows with the shoulder blades held up to my 18-n-1 for a firm support. Maybe wet phone books too? I will try and post some pictures too. Any suggestions?


Hey ******, Just thought I would let ya know you can make that ballistic gel really easy. There are instructions on google. I know a guy that decided to take some shoulder blades like your talking about and immerce them in the ballistics get for penetration test.. Just a thought catch ya later and good luck!


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## Whitey375

I think, if I do anything, it will be a 1" sheet of rubber in front of the shoulder. I don't have interior room to shoot very far, and springs here in the Willamette Valley are too unpredictable to set up a gelatin box outside.


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## Koorsboom

> This is what I got so far:
> 
> CX Rebel Hunter 75-90 @ 27" with 279gr at the tip and total weight of 655gr that gives 19% FOC and travels at 245f/s.
> 
> Easton Epic Realtree 300 @ 27" with 360gr at the tip and total weight of 666gr that gives 27% FOC and travels at 244f/s.


I shot a couple of groups today to see what the arrows would do. This is some of the groups:



















I still need to test groupings all the way out to 60Y, but I can only get to 40Y in my back yard.

I also shot a few broad heads and the results were very promising, but unfortunately the rain caught me before I could some proper testing with the broad heads.

One other thing that I noticed ... my cat whiskers started to come loose so I removed all of it. I then shot the arrows over the chrono again to see what the speed difefrence is without the whiskers. On my 650gr arrows the speed only went up by 2f/s and 5f/s on my 5gr/lb arrows. There was however a marked increase in string noise so the whiskers will come back on very soon.

Can someone tell me how to prevent them from coming loose ... I used a You Tube clip from, I think Mathews, on how to tie them on? Maybe I didn't tighten the knots enough.


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## bullfisher

Cant help ya on the cat whiskers koors but those groups are cool how do they bare shaft or paper tune?
My slipstreams are nice arrows but in order to achieve a stiff enough spine to handle tip wieght I had to trim over 3" off the back creating too much slop for the F nocks, resulting in varying paper tears. I did get over 400 grns and almost 19% FOC:thumbs_up. But the nock situation is a problem with taperd shafts. The forge web page says you have 4" at the back but its really 3". Back to the drawing board:angry:


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## Rockyhud

*Got some tech tip info for gluing Grizzly heads to adapters*

Macker (Jeff) PM'd me a while back to see if I had any advice on which adapters (11/32 or 5/16) to use with the Grizzly heads. Since I was going the same route as him for heads I called 3Rivers Archery. Below is what I found out today and sent back to him.


I called 3Rivers today (just got off the phone) to ask about the adapter sizes. I talked with David (in case you want to talk to someone specific who seems to know what he's talking about). Anyway, he said the 11/32 adapter is the correct/better one to use and said the 1/16 or so amount of adapter that's not recessed into the broadhead ferrule is what you should see. He pointed me to a view of the Woodsman broadhead to see how the adapter should appear when properly glued to the broadhead (item 4225-1X), (URL is http://www.3riversarchery.com/Broad...gr+Screw-In_c57_s120_p0_i4225-1X_product.html in case you can use this).

The base of the adapter will be seated against the face of the tip insert then there will be the 1/16 or so amount of adapter that you'll see then the base of the head and on up to the tip. He said this small lip between the base of the head and the small portion of the adapter that's visible isn't anything to be concerned with as far as snagging on "things" when the arrow goes into a target or animal. He also said it doesn't matter whether the adapter is alloy or steel, the same holds true for either.

He also gave me some advise in how to seat the head so it spins true and sets up properly when the glue is curing. He recommended 2-part epoxy with a long cure time (24-hour or so, not the 5-minute stuff). He uses pliers to grip the non-threaded shank (above the threaded end) and push the head on then give it about a 1/4 turn twist on the adapter, while pushing, to let the head bite and seat into the adapter metal. Then screw the head and adapter assembly into the shaft insert and spin the arrow with the tip down on a table to see if it spins like a top with no wobble. If it wobbles, remove the assembly, grip it with pliers again and give the head another small twist on the adapter and try again. He said this usually works the first time with the head seated nicely on the adapter and spinning true. Once it's spins true remove the assembly from the shaft and stick it point down into something like Styrofoam or something else that can hold the assembly upright while the glue cures.

And that's your glue-on broadhead tech tip for the day guys and gals.


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## Rockyhud

BTW, Koors, those are some nice tight groups you got going on there. I'll be interested to see and hear about all the broadhead test results that several are doing now or soon too.


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## Huh

Great thread, I think I am going to have to start crunching numbers tonight to see what I can come up with. I have been on a heavy arrow kick for a while and now want to swing the weight to the front.


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## castarwalt

If your looking for EFOC check out Alaska Bowhunting Supply Grizzly Stik Alaskan. Im sold.


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## castarwalt

315 grain field tips too.


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## Rockyhud

Huh, if you haven't read much about this topic and want a great source of data to help understand the benefits of FOC/EFOC and heavier weight arrows click on the Alaska Bowhunting Supply Tech Info tab and scroll to the bottom for a plethora of field test reports contributed by Dr Ed Ashby. To my knowledge all his test reports are listed there and there's a LOT of data covering just about every aspect of how to make your arrows and broadheads the most lethal they can be. To save the the extra clicks here's the link.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Tech-Tips-and-Tuning-W3.aspx


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## Huh

Thanks for the suggestions. Anybody else using grizzly stiks with compounds? I have seen a few negative reviews citing poor spine consistency.


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## Huh

*Thoughts...*

So, I got out some arrows of different sizes and started to do some calculations and made a few observations, which may have been obvious. It seems that the length of the point matters, which makes sense in hindsight. I got anywhere from 1% - 2% when moving from a broadhead 1.5" in length to one 2.25" in length (tip to base of ferrule...not including threads). Not a huge deal, but something to keep in mind if you are only adding weight to the rear of the insert. Leverage will increase the further one gets from the fulcrum point, right? 

For a 27" arrow I only got above 20% when I attached a 150 grain or larger head to a 2413. The 2413 will likely not have the spine I need, so I will probably go with the 2317 or more likely the 2514. BTW, I have 3 blazers and a wrap on these arrows. Since I have some 2514's I am going to see how they fly with the big 175 grain Snuffers and go from there. The test arrow gave me 19.9% FOC and weighs in at 480 grains plus nock, inserts on both ends, glue and wrap.


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## Aggieland

*Alright Fellas!!!*

I have the first of my arrows put together and so far things are looking good! The arrow components are as follows.. Easton Axis Full Metal Jackets 25.5" 12.0 GPI .300 spine. with 75 grain HIT incert.. 1.75'' Bohning shield cut X vanes. 3.5 grains each and top the front off with the 175 grain Slick Trick XBOW Trick. Total arrow weight should be 175-180 .... Now here is the good part.. After doing all of Dr. Asby's measurments I have an EFOC of 19.90% :thumbs_up I will be doing testing soon.. Here are a few pics of my first finished arrow..


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## Koorsboom

> So, I got out some arrows of different sizes and started to do some calculations and made a few observations, which may have been obvious. It seems that the length of the point matters, which makes sense in hindsight


You are probably correct, but one has to look at setting or at least using a consistant standard somehwere. If I am not mistake, Dr Ashby also makes this clear in one of his articles. He then indicates that he chooses to use the procedure where one measures from the insert to the nock groove. I may be wrong, but I think this is also more or less the standard most of use uses.

Using a standard helps all of us to talk from the same place and make comparisons even if we are continents apart. Nothing stops you however from using the alternative method if you like it better. You may just want to state that somewhere when you give info about your arrows so that the rest of us know what we are comparing our numbers with.



> Total arrow weight should be 175-180 ....


Aggieland, I am sure this is not what you meant


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## Aggieland

HA ummm yeah might want a 5 in front of that.. how about 570-580..


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## Huh

Koors - I totally agree that we need a consistent standard of measure. The only point I was hoping to make was that when we measure FOC we are measuring a "lever's leverage" so to speak and so the longer the effort arm the more leverage we get. Adding weight to the rear of the insert is like sitting a few feet closer to the middle of a teeter totter....you simply don't weigh as much from the perspective of the other end.


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## Koorsboom

Now that you mention it ... it actually makes sense. If you want to see larger changes in FOC with smaller weight additions you need to add the weight in front of the insert (at the broadhead/field point's side).

This may allow you to achieve the desired FOC with less total weight at the tip and therefore less spine issues than if you add weight behind or on the shaft's side of the tip.

Only question now is, how significant is the difference?

I must admit that I tried to work with 125gr broad heads as a standard as they are easier to obtain overe here in South Africa than the heavieror odd weight heads. Because of that as well as the limited availability of heavier inserts, I have added most of the weights I am using behind the insert.

I used lead though so I have fairly short pieces of weight for relatively large gains in total tip weight.

Neverthe less, I think you prompted me to slightly change my approach.


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## Whitey375

Huh and Koors, that is exactly what I said like 4 pages ago, lol. You can also change your FOC by a few tenths of a percent but just screwing in the points until just the first threads catch to get an idea of the difference between field points and broadheads too. But you are correct that you will achieve more FOC for your buck if you go beyond the business side of the insert. However, you end up weakening your spine more quickly that way.

I am considering switching to the Gold Tip UL 300's, as they are 70 dollars cheaper a dozen, achieve the same FOC as the Maxima's with the same weight/point combo, but come in 22 grains lighter, and they are just as straight. I also picked up that new Helix tower jig for Blazers, it puts a hell of a twist on those little vanes. From the back they look like the prop for a boat motor!! An additional benefit to all that twist besides stability, is, supposedly, you can get away with a lighter spined arrow because of it.


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## Huh

*Thick headed?*

Sorry about that ******, promise I read every page, sometimes I just need to think it through myself.:thumbs_up


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## Huh

BTW sound like a nice setup you have going there, keep us posted.


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## walkinghorse

I'm a trad shooter that cruzes the wheel sites and this thread caught my eye. I would suggest checking out some of the trad sites (tradgang) as this topic has been beat to death. A quick search on the gang site will give volumes of info on FOC & EFOC.
Ashby checks in on the gang every so often and will answer questions posted.
Some swear by Ashbys work,some swear at. 
For the guys looking for a heavy carbon shaft check out Arrow Dynamics Hammerhead shaft. Heavy,tough and tapered. 
Broadheads,check out VPA Terminator. 3 blade 3 to 1, solid machined broadhead. Its getting good reviews with the hog hunters.
Good luck with your search and tuning. Your work will be rewarded with pass throughs everytime.


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## bullfisher

Good info thanks for stopping by Walkinghorse!

I've been toying with some older 7595's and at 27.5 shaft length some 6 grn uni nocks, feathers, and some allen wieghts from the hardware store im getting 18%! Heck thats not bad for an average shaft and Im hitting my 420grn mark! I have feathers on some traditional stuff but never experimented with them on anything else. I picked up almost 2% just by switching. the two big cons for me with feathers is the rain and flight noise. But the pros are FOC, speed, durability, broadhead flight, and contact forgiveness. Is it just me or do the pros out wiegh the cons here? I've always shot blazers because of thier high profile but the 3" shield cut feathers I put on are 5/8" high and I still have plenty of clearance on my nemesis!


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## bullfisher

I've also noticed that achieving bare shaft bullet holes with ALL shafts is a little difficult with EFOC. One shaft might give goofy tears when another shoots fine. All that weight up front seems to really want to taddle tale on any imperfections on the nock end, week knock, unsquare ends, or loose nocks. I stripped all my shafts resquared the ends and shot every one through paper twisting knocks and rotating arrows until they all shot perfect from 8 yards! If I would have just pulled One shaft shot it and got a left or right tear I would have assumed I could add more wieght or had too week of spine. I never had a problem with this when my FOC was 11%. Just FYI dont toss your experiments due to improper spine just yet they may just need a tweakin!


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## Koorsboom

I found the same thing and decided to move away from paper testing all together and only shoot for long distance groups and broad head tune. If my groupings are god and my broad heads fly true I am not going to worry about what the paper says too much ...

Thanks for the info Walkinghorse. I often wonder how much of Dr Ashby's info can be applied as is to compounds, but we are trying our best ...


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## Whitey375

I have been playing with the Gold Tip UL 300's lately, mainly because they are $70 a dozen cheaper than the Maximas. $156 versus $85.
I have found with the same set up as the Maximas, a 50gr weight and a 125gr head, I get the same FOC, 17.2%, but at 455gr versus the 490gr of the Maximas.
For giggles I threw an extra 20gr weight down the shaft behind the 50, for a finished FOC of 19.3% and a weight of 475gr.
Using the Maximas as the control arrows, I tried to place the Gold Tips with them at 60 yards. They hit so closely that I shaved fletches off of the Maximas with the GT's. Now I know I said that the Maximas were it, but I am also cheap, so the GT's might get the nod. We will see....


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## bullfisher

I also just purchased more GT 7595's. And got some longer 20grn inserts from easton, some 30grn weights, with 125's giving them about 17.8% and with feathers about 19.2%. So far the factory vanetechs are shooting a little better than the feathers but I only fletched one arrow with feathers. At 440grns 17.8% 28" and 280 fps my rytera nemesis is shootng lazer beams, even on shots I know were less than perfect.


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## Rockyhud

I finally received my 160 gr Grizzly El Grande broadheads, 42 gr 11/32 long alloy adapters and 200 gr field tips today. I pulled one BH and one adapter from the bags and ran the adapter into the BH ferrule to trial check the fit and appearance. I gave the BH a slight twist clockwise (looking front to back) while I applied a slight amount of pressure and did a spin test. I impressed that the assembly seemed to be trued up with no wobble in the shaft when spinning and I couldn't detect any side play between the BH and adapter. From this I'd say the advise David at 3Rivers gave me was good. The adapter base is visible below the base of the BH as David said but its diameter is slightly less than the ferrule so it shouldn't cause any issues regarding penetration. It's possible it might catch slightly on foam BH targets when pulling them out but I doubt it will be noticeable.

I weighed a small sample of BHs and adapters to see how consistent they are. The BHs weighed in at 170 each, apparently overweight to accommodate the removal of material as one gets the Tanto tip finished and the edges sharp. The adapters were 42-43 gr each. With just a dry fit (no glue) the rough BH and adapter weighed 211 gr. Once the BH is finished and glued I think this will be close to the final weight.

Since the BHs came with a rough single bevel edge and the Tanto tip is essentially unfinished I have some work to do to make them "hunt ready" before I have a final impression, but the initial impressions are good.


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## Whitey375

Rocky, that sounds good as long as they shoot well. Did I remember you saying they had some lightweight glue on adapters? Like 20grs?


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## Huh

Funny that the VPA head and arrow dynamics shafts were mentioned because that is exactly what I have been eye balling.

For the record, Matt's Legacy 28"DL 73lbs 27.5" arrow 

I have been, for several years now, trying to shoot the traditional snuffers in the 145 grain or better weights and have had some success. The lessons learned with these monsters are basically the heads have to align absolutely perfect and no matter what the charts say you need a .300 spine or better. I just have not stuck with them because of various factors that shook my confidence in the setup.... 

So, when I stumbled on the Terminators (sort of a machined old style snuffer) and the arrow dynamics shafts it looked like a match made in heaven....then I read reviews and guys seem to like the shafts, but at some point in their history they had some QC problems, which appear to be fixed. On the trad sites, arrow dynamics are all the rage. I contacted the company to ask about how to select an arrow and he said, just pick a weight the will all shoot out of a 60-100lb bow. The spines on these arrows run from .200 to .350 with several weight options. Unfortunately, I neglected to ask about how much weight they would accept up front.

My question is, why hasn't anybody tried them for this application?

www.nitrostingerusa.com

The shafts of interest to what is being done here are probably:
Nitro-Stinger Gold Label	8.9 gr/inch .215
Nitro-Stinger Green Label 8.5 gr/inch .225
Nitro-Stinger Orange Label 8.0 gr/inch .250
Big Game n/s 10.5 gr/inch .200


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## Huh

*BH Adapters*

For those of you using BH adapters for the first time....spin the adapters before you install a head. Also, I highly prefer an longer set epoxy or JB Weld to say hot melt. I have had many heads get eaten by targets due to hot melt failures. You will need some time to get the heads just so and the cure time of JB Weld or say a 90 minute epoxy are pretty good for this IMO.


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## Macker

Huh said:


> For those of you using BH adapters for the first time....spin the adapters before you install a head. Also, I highly prefer an longer set epoxy or JB Weld to say hot melt. I have had many heads get eaten by targets due to hot melt failures. You will need some time to get the heads just so and the cure time of JB Weld or say a 90 minute epoxy are pretty good for this IMO.


the only problem i would see with this is the next set of arrows you may purchase may not align perfectly. with hotmelt, you can get them to spin true. i used hot melt on my abowyers and they hold great. i used acetone on the adapter and inside the head, but i flashed the inside of the head with a torch, as per abowyer recommendations. maybe this is the key?


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## Huh

*Agreed...*

The method of Abowyer sounds great. If the hot melt works for you run with it. The flexibility it adds to your setup is nice.

I did not worry about future arrows because they had to work now and I thought straight was straight. I should also mention that each arrow gets tested on multiple shafts that will spin a "reference" head perfectly true.

Always nice to have options.


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## Macker

Huh said:


> The method of Abowyer sounds great. If the hot melt works for you run with it. The flexibility it adds to your setup is nice.
> 
> I did not worry about future arrows because they had to work now and I thought straight was straight. I should also mention that each arrow gets tested on multiple shafts that will spin a "reference" head perfectly true.
> 
> Always nice to have options.


true enough! i have had problems with hot melt in the past, but so far so good!


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## Zephhyr

I thought the efoc idea sounds interesting so I decided to give it a go, here is what I came up with.

Victory hv 350's, 26" bare shaft length, victory standard inserts, 125gr points, flex fletch 187's, & quad tune a nocks. 

Now these are fairly lite arrows 326gr overall, only intended for target work though.

I am getting a FOC of 19.2, pretty good I think.:darkbeer:

They fly better & penetrate more than any other arrow I have used so far.


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## Rockyhud

******, yes there are lighter weight adapters but they're also shorter. David, at 3Rivers, recommended the longer adapters as they have longer contact surface areas and tend to align with the BH better and spin truer to the shaft. When I tried one without glue I applied light pressure against the adapter while spinning the BH clockwise on the adapter and it was remarkably true with the shaft, just as he said was his experience.

He also recommended longer setup glues (24-hr was recommended) as they allow you to make sure the BH setup true with the shaft without having to rush the setup like 5-minute epoxy and other quick-set glues force you into. He also said there are pro and cons to hot melt glue - you do have the opportunity, if needed to melt again and realign the BH but he also said it also doesn't have the strong adhesion of 2-part epoxy. So, take your choice - ease of realignment if needed or stronger adhesion to the adapter. For me, I'll take the latter.


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## Alpha Burnt

*Ive settled on an arrow*

I have Gold Tip UL Pro 22s. I cut them 27 3/8"- fletched them with 3 2" RW Shield back Trueflights, using ruby Victory pin nocks, Victory 92 gn brass inserts and 100 gn field points. They weigh 412 gn, have 21% FOC and fly like a bullet, great groups to 50 yards! I also had some Victory HV 22s with aluminum inserts/ 85 gn points and sights are really close until 30-40 yards and GTs are dropping 4 more inches than the HVs. I can live with that, as my pins are fairly close anyway and I increase arrow wt by 70 gn compared to the Victorys.


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## Huh

*Footing?*

After reading a few reviews of the Arrow Dynamics I have moved on. One thing I have always not liked about carbon is the ends tends to blow out when you hit something hard. In light of this conversation and in an effort to strengthen arrows what about aluminum footing on carbon arrows? I think I am going to give it a try and see what I can come up with. It will stiffen and strengthen the front of the arrow. Off the shelf footing can be had too, PSE Black Mamba, VPA archery makes footings, three rivers sells some and the Trophy Ridge arrows have some. Anyway, just another way to put some weight up front and accomplish something constructive.....maybe.


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## sinko

OK I already am a beliver in efoc, and after reading through this thread I can't find the grain per inch ratio for 8/32 set screws of the hardware store variety. I'll more than likely be shooting gold tips and would like the cheap and easy way to bump up my foc. The way that apeals most to me is just go to the hardware store and buy a handful of set screws for a buck or two, not have to order a dozen brass inserts and have to wait a week on a $15.00 order.


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## Rockyhud

After a long absence (business trip to Europe for a month) I'm finally back and looking forward to picking up where I left off.

After receiving my Grizzly BHs I started figuring out what glue to use. I finally decided on JB Weld 2-part epoxy. I've used it in the past and had great results - among other things I built up the area around a drain petcock on our CJ-7 radiator and it's never cracked or leaked.

So, after getting settled back home and taking care of a few things I went out for the glue. While doing this I looked into getting an arrow spinner/inspector so I could view the BH tip with the shaft spinning in a fixed location to better see any misalignment. I gotta tell you guys, this little device is well worth the $30 bucks. The one I got is the Pine Ridge Arrow Inspector. I've tried spinning shafts across a smooth, flat table corner but you have to track the shaft across the surface AND try to keep an eye on the BH tip for any wobble. Not the easiest thing to do. With the arrow inspector the shaft is cradled in one location and basically sits in position spinning, making it much easier to view how well the BH is aligned with the shaft.

So, today I finally glued the adapters and grizzlies together. When I finished I weighed each finished assembly and found they weighed 215-218 grains. The 218 was my first and the extra few grains could have been due to getting a little more glue on it than the rest. I can live with that little amount of weight spread.

I haven't sharpened any BHs yet as I want to shoot them first just to get an idea of how they will fly. Based on several reports from others shooting Grizzlies I'm hoping they'll do the same for me. I'll come back with that update in the next few days I hope.


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## bullfisher

I gotta say, the new goldtip velocity arrows have the perfect numbers for EFOC. 300 spine, 8.5gpi, and 7grn nocks. The inserts however are only 10grns so toss them aside.


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## Rockyhud

*Finally, some field testing results of my own*

I finally got a chance to shoot the finished arrows and broadheads (Gold Tip Big Game 100+ with 160 gr Grizzly El Grande/42 gr adapter combo) today. There was barely even any breeze so the conditions were essentially perfect. I tried shooting last weekend but the winds were so strong they were blowing me and the arrows all over the place so today was a welcome reprieve.

So, long story short, I am very impressed with this combo.

After compensating for the extra weight over my Maxima 350s (adjusting my sight position downward to elevate the arrow some) I proceeded to shoot. Having shot these shafts with 200 gr field points earlier I had a pretty good idea where to start. Starting at 20 yards each arrow was impacting right where I was aiming (at least within my shooting capability). I then shot from 30 yards - same results. The same was true for 40 yards. I'll have to do 50 and 60 yard shots later when I have more time.

As it had been several months since I last shot more than a handful of arrows I had to somewhat retrain myself to use good habits again. One thing I noticed on the first few shots was some tail wagging as the arrows left the bow. As I settled down and concentrated on consistent anchor position (using my No-Peep more than usual) and using back muscles to hold at full draw and not anticipating the shot I noticed the tail wagging almost completely vanished. Apparently I had been torquing the bow without realizing it and causing enough lateral shift during the release to cause the tail wagging.

A few other observations are worth noting. First, these Grizzly El Grande broadheads fly every bit as good as my 100 gr Magnus Stinger 4-blade broadheads which shoot just like field points to at least 60 yards. Based on these shots today I am anticipating the Grizzly broadheads will do the same. This confirms what others have said about their not planing and causing steering issues (provided they have been glued and trued to the shaft and adapter properly, which mine were).

Second, this combo was driving much deeper into my broadhead target than my Maxima 350/Magnus Stinger arrow combo ever had; 18+/- inches deep on all shots at 20 and 30 yards. As distance increased to 40 yards the depth into the target hardly changed at all, confirming the theory that higher mass arrows with higher FOC certainly have greater penetration potential. 

Third, the distance between range marks on my yardage tape hardly changed (i.e., from 20 to 30 to 40 yards) from what the faster Maximas required. In other words the heavier arrows required a lower initial sight position for 20 yards but after that the sight adjustments for 30 and 40 yards were virtually the same amount of sight movement as for the lighter Maximas. To me, this also confirms the theory, and others' observations, that heavier arrows start out slower but lose speed over distance slower than do faster, lighter arrows; maintaining more of their initial speed over distance due to the higher mass.

Fourth, I discovered these maintain the clockwise spiral twist of the stabilized arrow in flight even as it passes through the target, due to the single bevel edge. As I pulled the arrows out I had to apply a counter-clockwise twist to allow the broadhead to follow its initial path into the target. From what I could determine, maintaining the grip on the shaft after removal and comparing the entry position with the final resting position, there was close to a 1/3 revolution of the shaft inside the target in the 18 inch distance it was driven to. As an aside to this, I also noticed the same S-shaped entry cut on the face of the target as I seen in recovered game photos in which single bevel broadheads were used.

All in all, I am very pleased with combination of shaft, broadhead and vanes. After today's shooting experience I think I'll be buying another half dozen shafts and broadheads so I'll have a full dozen. I'm also thinking I'll be using these for ALL big game hunting.

In closing I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread for all the data and findings presented here. It has been a great learning opportunity that benefited me with the ability to put together my new best big game archery ammo.


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## bullfisher

Rocky, I've also been researching the large single bevel BH's and I'll be pullin the trigger on some of those shortly. I also like the thought of being able to get all the weight I need from one BH instead of a combo of componants for EFOC. Glad you found your setup:thumbs_up


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## cptleo1

What arrow selection chart are you guys using for 160+ tips.

I would like to try some of this heavy arrow FOC but can't figure out how to get started.

I am shooting GT XT hunters 29" 100 gr tip at about 295 fps 

This is about a 390 gr set up at 11.3 FOC.

If I wanted to get the front end to say 250 gr a FOC of 25/30 %

What spine/arrow do I start with, how much weight to put in the back.

Sorry, I am just brain dead about getting started.

I am also playing with setting up a BT Commander for indoor spots, the Easton
target arrow chart does not mention tip weight, my mentor recommends X7s 2713 32" and 275 tip.

I am confused, why does the hunting chart specify a tip weight and the target chart does not.

I would really prefer a carbon arrow for hunting rather than a 2713.

It is tough getting old - this stuff does not compute.

LOL


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## Rockyhud

Welcome to the thread cptleo1. To answer your question about heavy arrow and higher FOC, at least somewhat, I called Gold Tip and talked with one of their tech experts. I was told the Big Game 100+ shafts could easily handle my Grizzly and heavier tips, such as Ashby 315 gr tips, without safety issues. From what I recall, the spine on these shafts is rated either 280 or 250 so they are built to handle heavy tips.

I chose these shafts rather than others, such as the Alaska Bowhunting Grizzlystik, as I didn't want quite as much total weight but they're still significantly heavier than my Maxima 350s. If you are using 5575 XT Hunters these would be very close to the Maxima 350 (gr/inch wise) which I was told by Carbon Express should not be used with 200 gr points - recommending 150 gr max.

If I ever do want to bump up the overall mass weight on the Big Game shafts I can install internal weight tubes that I have, adding 3 gr/inch, adding 87 grains. This would make these about 640 gr total but would reduce the FOC some too. I'd then need to experiment with adding insert weights to get FOC back up where it is now. If I were going to Africa to hunt dangerous game like Cape Buffalo I'd definitely do this but I think for all game in North America, including the large brown bears in Alaska, my current shafts and broadheads should do the trick.

Hope that helps. To get more specific help I recommend calling the tech support line for whatever shaft you're considering and ask them to help determine what shaft they have that will meet our needs.


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## daddonati

Well here's some info for you guys on my new set up. I'm still in the testing phase but I got some of the new GT Velocity arrows in .300 spine. These arrows in the XT are 8.5 gr/in and come with 6.8-7 gr light nocks but they set deep inside the shaft for good support. They also have light weight inserts so I used the longer Easton inserts that are 20-21 grs. I put a 50 gr weight on the back of the insert with 125 points. Shooting out of my Destroyer 350 at 70 lbs, they weigh 457 grs and are going 295 fps. FOC is right at 19% (18.8-19 with 28 1/8" shaft). Havent done bare shaft testing with them yet, but bow was shooting killer from doing that with my Maxima hunters before these. They are coming outta the bow straight and fly good. They seem to have plenty of spine and I'm thinking of experimenting with some heavier BH's.


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## Rockyhud

Hey Bullfisher,

I thought I'd respond to your comment about pulling the trigger on large single-bevel broadheads. First off, I say definitely go for it. If you make sure they're trued to your shafts and adapters (presuming they are glue-on) I don't think you will have any regrets. Mine have done everything all the Ashby field reports (and others) claim they do, up to this point. The only thing I haven't done is shot them into game animals yet but based on all the other results matching up I have no doubt they will be more lethal than anything I've used to date. One of the hunting stories on Alaska Bowhunting Supply's website recounts a traditional hunter shooting hogs with a 47# bow and Ashby broadheads. He shot and killed TWO hogs without realizing the second one was even involved in the shot. The arrow/broadhead combo passed through the first hog and then penetrated deeply into the second hog for a quick and lethal shot on it as well. He was stunned to say the least.

I presume you read my recent comment saying I'm thinking I may well use these for ALL big game. The reason is these arrows/broadheads are shooting so well that I can't think of any reason why I shouldn't use them even on smaller game like pronghorn and similar game. I liken this to using my .338 Win Mag and somewhat heavier boat tail bullets for all big game. Lighter bullets are available and shoot faster but heavier ammo carries momentum out to longer ranges better. It just a deadly combo.

I know there are those who'd say my heavier archery ammo is overkill but I don't see it that way when I can shoot every bit as accurate with these as I can with lighter arrows and know I'll have the benefit of greater penetration at any range, especially if the broadhead hits bone at an oblique angle that might cause lighter arrows and lesser broadheads to skip off. I'm sure this will ignite the flamethrowers of the "lighter is better" crowd, but I feel it's a hunter's responsibility to do everything possible to ensure a quick and humane kill and for me these heavier arrows and especially these or similar broadheads should give me an advantage no matter what I'm hunting.

So, good luck on selecting your broadheads and good hunting.


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## 6APPEAL

Rocky,
Your testing was the comfirmation I was looking for, both with a traditional coabon shaft and a large single bevel. I used the Grizzly Stick in my testing for efoc. I didn't quite get the foc I was looking for (~25%) but picked up a huge amount of shaft weight which has cost me shot distance (391 vs 556.5). I love the way the heavy shafts shoot since I almost drive them through 3d targets at 20 yards. After reading yours and others here I'm going to try the GT Velocity shafts with a heavy insert and a 150 or 200 gr single bevel.
John


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## daddonati

You should try the Velocity arrows, light enough gr/inch you can build some serious foc without having a REALLY heavy arrow. I'm curious about the big, heavy 2 blade on those shafts too. Keep us posted!


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## mt hunter22

awesome,informational thread guys.i am shooting at 29/70,arrow length 27 1/2 or 28 inches.and want to get the best front of center and still be around 400 grns total.thinking about trying the slipstreams,with a 100 gr head, but they are kinda spendy,what would be your reccomendations? thanks


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## Rockyhud

Welcome to the thread, mt hunter22. There's a LOT of info about arrow and broadhead weight that has been put into this thread in the many previous pages, which means a bit of reading to glean all the info but I believe you will find answers to your questions with regard to the slipstream shafts and weight you're trying to achieve. There have been several brands and types of shafts experimented with in this thread.

Personally, I'm a convert now in that I believe there's much to be gained with the heavier arrows as opposed to trying to achieve EFOC with light weight arrows. Dr Ed Ashby and my own findings prove out the penetration benefits of greater mass and that can only be achieved with heavier arrow and broadhead combos. Granted the trajectory is not as flat and you potentially lose a little maximum shooting distance (mostly due to sight pin limitations) but I believe these are offset by the advantages heavier/higher FOC arrows provide.


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## B3AV3R

I've been following this thread and considering testing the limits of FOC for myself. I am wondering who here has tried Muzzy's brass inserts. Which shafts do they fit well?

I'm considering either Easton Flatline Surgical 340's with 100gr brass inserts and 100gr tips. This should provide a tick over 20% FOC, according to OT2. I'm also considering A/C/C 3-60's.

Can anyone comment on how well these Muzzy inserts will fit wither of these two shafts? They say they'll fit .244-.246 shafts, but I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to how my compnents fit.


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## Rockyhud

Hi Don - welcome to the thread. I considered the Muzzy inserts early on so I contacted Muzzy asking the same question about fit. They replied back indicating these inserts would fit inside standard carbon shafts. I decided instead to buy Gold Tip brass weights in 20 and 50 grain sets (each package/set sold per dozen). The main reason I went with these was I didn't have to remove the OEM inserts, risking damage to the shaft in doing so. These fit a little snug inside both my Carbon Express Maxima 350 and Gold Tip Big Game 100+ shafts. You can also stack them up to achieve the weight you are looking to gain. If I recall correctly I believe I got my weights and installation tool (a long steel L-shaped rod with a hex on the far straight end) from Little Jon's Archery (http://www.littlejons.com/). He had the best prices and was quick getting these to me. Good luck in your quest for better hunting arrows.


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## Glenn-bob

*No...*



Kahkon said:


> Fobs weigh 24 grains. How would putting a fob on change your foc? It is on last inch of the arrow. Fobs claim to fame is more stability shooting in cross wind and with broadheads. If I am reading these post correctly that seems to be the advantage of an extreme foc.
> 
> So, wouldn't it be easier to shoot fobs to get similar results to an extreme foc??
> 
> Anyway I will rerad the post in this thread and try to get an even better unstanding of an extreme foc.
> 
> BTW kev from england, if you want a few fobs to test, I will ship ya some to england. Pm me you address. I will send a few for small and med diameter shafts.


If I understand Ashby correctly the heavier FOC actually drags the arrow as opposed to a lighter FOC which, if taken to the extreme, would push the arrow. Not that you would go to that extreme but as a matter of explanation...


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## Whitey375

Glenn-Bob, you are correct.


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## bbjavelina

*Been lurking too long!*

Please forgive me if I ramble a bit, but there's a lot to say. To your credit, most has been said very well. I've long been a proponent of FOC, and lately to EFOC, and perhaps, now, to R(radical)FOC.

FOC is always good (can I get an Amen?). Is there such a thing as too much? Probably -- most things can be carried to extreme. If I knew where that point was, that's where I'd be.

Early on in the thread I was distressed at the recurrence of mention to KE. Thankfully, that seems to have gone away. Everybody who follows Dr. Ed knows that slugs and impulse are paramount. Sure wish I understood that stuff!

Yet, I still see references to weight tubes, heavy inserts, insert weights, heavy shafts, and such. Maybe I misunderstand, but why would we want to concentrate mass anywhere other than the broadhead? Isn't that the most bang for the buck?

I'm on a learning curve here and appreciate the advice of those more experienced than I. I plan on returning to Africa in 12 months. Last year I shot GT 55/75 with Muzzy 125 3 blades. Excellent results. Next year I plan on targeting slightly heavier animals. That being 2 years in the interim, it's likely I'll be drawing less, if not the same. I really want to maximize the results. 

After reading everything I can find by Dr. Ed, I plan on shooting something with high FOC, a high mechanical advantage broadhead, and a reasonably high mass arrow. As of now, I'm looking at a tapered shaft with a heavy single bevel head. Or maybe a double bevel such as the Zwickey, Magnus or such. Today playing with some Grizzly Sticks. Lately I've read that they don't enjoy a good reputation for straightness. I just got some samle packs, so I can't speak to that, but would like to hear more before I invest my retirement account in a dozen.

I've enjoyed the read, and lookd forward to more.

Best of luck to each of you.


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## Whitey375

A month and a half ago, my elbow really started acting up, long story. Anyways I dropped the Destroyer down to 63#, strangely enough, it got so much easier to make EFOC arrows that actually shot really well. So I started playing with new arrows, again. The most consistent arrow I found, not to mention cheap, was the Carbon Tech Panthers. 19.6% FOC at 440grains! IMO, if you are pulling anything less than 67#, and can safely shoot a 28" arrow, get some 125 grain heads and some Gold Tip 20 grain insert weights and you'll be in business. You will either have to tap the inserts clear through, or just do what I did and use some GT UL inserts. But I have since worked out my elbow issue and am back up to 74#.


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## Rockyhud

Hey ******, glad to hear your elbow injury was short term and behind you now. Your experience with the Gold Tip weights is similar to mine - I used the Gold Tip wrench to install them but getting them out I had to to resort to pretty firm tapping of the end of the shaft in a hard surface to get them to come back out the rear end. The do work well and I intend to use them to add 50 grains to my Maxima 350s to get my FOC higher with them too as I still might use them for pronghorn hunting.

bbjavelina, welcome to the thread. From your inputs it sounds like you're on the right track with regard to considering momentum more so than KE in selecting arrows and broadheads. As to your questions/comments about weight tubes, insert weights and such and wondering why a person would concentrate weight along the shaft, here are my 2 cents. According to Dr Ed the total arrow and broadhead needs to be considered along with FOC when selecting components. The total mass is important in that it helps with the momentum aspect which plays an important part in determining penetration potential. Dr Ed's research indicates there to be a mass threshold under which there's a distinct reduction in average penetration, even when EFOC is being implemented.

So, long story short, there's a balance between arrow mass and FOC that needs to be considered. Also, from what I've read, the toughness of the game animal is another factor. Dr Ed has used buffalo in a lot of his test and he repeatedly points out the hide and ribs of these critters are probably tougher and harder to penetrate than most North American game. He used buffalo since these are among the more extreme examples of what a bow hunter might encounter and to see and measure the effects of high mass and EFOC in these extreme cases. The reader can then take his test data and use it to construct the best bow ammunition he can for the type of game he'll be hunting.

I take this to mean build heavier arrow/broadhead combo's for larger game here like elk, moose, larger bears and such than what might be needed for smaller game like whitetail and pronghorn and such. That's why my new elk arrows and broadheads weigh about 555 grains and why I selected 215 grain (total combined weight with 42 grain adapter) Grizzly El Grande single bevel broadheads. They shoot great and group well and I can't wait to see how they perform on game. I may still use my Maxima 350s tipped with 100 grain 4-blade Magnus Stingers (with 50 grain insert weight added to make 150 grain total) for my pronghorn hunt since these are smaller game and don't require as much mass to take them. Plus the Maximas in this configuration are faster and shoot flatter which can be an advantage since these animals have such keen eye sight and don't always come as close as you'd like.

As to your Africa trip sounds again like you have right plan - higher mass and heavy single bevel broadhead. If you haven't tried them yet I would recommend Grizzly El Grande heads to see if they shoot well for you. Everything Dr Ed reported in his tests I confirmed after getting mine and shooting them. They fly nice, group well and I expect they'll hit and penetrate well once they make contact based on how they've performed in my broadhead target.

Good luck in your arrow selection quest and your Africa hunt.


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## bbjavelina

*Rocky, thanks for the reply.*

I really appreciate the time you take replying.

What's really killing me just now is that after last year's trip to Africa and not having a place to hunt last fall, well, I haven't done enough shooting and now I'm working at a lower draw weight. Consequently, I can't get serious about choosing components and such. It's gonna take a month or so to work back up to my fighting weight.

I've always been a believer in momentum/mass and FOC, even though I was a backslider for awhile. Had good luck with the lighter stuff, but it may have been just that -- luck. Anyway, I'm back on track now and loving it. There's just not enough reading material out there and with new shafts and heads coming along at an amazing clip I feel like I'm falling behing and don't have enough years to catch up.

I've just got to spend some time with the Grizzly Sticks and am intrigued with the Hammerheads. So much gear, so little energy. Yeah, and a budget too! Thank God I've got a great wife, but now that she's retired she gets first look at every package that comes in. I can have stuff delivered at work, but her daughter sees all that! May have to talk to those Russian spys and set up some dead drop system.

Best of luck to you.


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## Rockyhud

bbjavelina, I know everyone has their opinion about broadheads and whether fixed or mechanical are best but for me I prefer simple and reliable, meaning fixed blade. Again, this it from my perspective, but if it were my African hunt I would want to ensure EVERYTHING is as fool proof as possible to prevent "stuff" from making what seems like a good shot not be so. With that in mind fixed blade broadheads would definitely be in my quiver (as they are now).

Before I found out about Grizzly heads I had been using Magnus Stingers. They fly just like my field points out to 60 and 70 yards and are very sharp right from the package. They are however not nearly as heavy as I now like. After getting my Grizzly heads and making sure they glued up correctly on my screw-in adapters (I spin tested each one as I glued them) I discovered these also fly perfect and group very well. Dr Ed has commented on the 3:1 length to width ratio which essentially keeps these from planing and causing steering problems. My shooting has so far confirmed this. Dr Ed has also reported numerous times about the Grizzly being the best at penetration potential regardless of shot angle and whether or not bone was hit or not.

Also, cut on contact heads are going to get you better hide penetration than those that have trocar or chisel points. If you go to 3 Rivers website and check out their technical videos they have one showing how hard it is for them to pierce a deer hide with trocar tips and how easy it is for cut on contact heads. Just something else to consider.

As I said, this is what I would do.


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## Whitey375

Rocky, try a tiny dab of super glue on the end of the wrench. It works in a pinch but I just went out and bought an 1/8" stainless rod that is 3 feet long, works better.


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## a1hoyt.ca

*a1hoyt.ca*

I am @ 12.8 percent I think this plenty for any hunting situation.


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## Rockyhud

Thanks ****** - good tip. Do you have any trouble removing the weight from the wrench or rod afterward?


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## Whitey375

Not usually, I only use a tiny amount though and I typically only let it set for about 3-5 minutes. Seemingly I only have to do this when I have more than one weight up there as it creates a small vaccuum that is just strong enough to pull the weight off the end of the wrench about an inch and a half from being completely out, lol. As far as the rod goes, I use that to push the weight out from the insert end if that is the only weight I have in there if it pops off the wrench.


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## 41mag

Well I have been reading this thread with great interest. Since I am shooting the 340 FMJ at 29", using Blazers and with a 125gr head I am only a decimal place over 10% FOC. In looking at the charts as well as talking with Easton about it, I am right on the ragged edge, if I add more than a 50gr insert. Even with the breakaway still attached for 75grs, it only bumps me up to just a tad over 11%. I was looking to hit the 13-15% range, and to do this I will need to bump up to the 300's and use the whole 75 or a 100gr insert depending on if I use a 100 or 125gr head. 

Just calculating things out, this will bring my total arrow weight up to around 570grs. I was just wandering if any of you with the programs could figure out the drop in velocity this might give me?

I have an '09 Admiral, which is set to 70# with about a turn and a half left. I might go the other turn but don't want to crank it down tight. With this I am getting an average of 265fps with my current FMJ's which weigh 470grs. So basically it would be shoving another hundred grains down range. I am not overly worried about the speed unless it is a considerable drop off, but I really don't want to get the arrows until I can get at least some sort of WAG on the speed. I am thinking that is should be somewhere around the 230 - 240fps range, but I may be wrong. 

Can one of you figure the speed somewhere close with one of your programs? I do not have anything on my string other than a d-loop, IBO on the card is [email protected]# if that helps. I already know I cannot hit that weight with the string on it now as it has stretched a bit and I am not going to change it until after deer season unless I put a twist in it. Since it is bearing down on us fast, I am simply looking to get things in order for right after the season when we REALLY start hitting the hogs hard. 

Thanks,


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## IrkedCitizen

Your 29" .340 FMJ with 125gr broadhead, 16gr HIT insert, 9gr X nock, and 20gr blazers (3x6.24+glue) only weigh 470gr? I get 498gr when I do the math. Does your 29" include or exclude the broadhead in the measurement? 

When I use a FOC calculator using your arrow specs it says 12% FOC. When I use a 100gr BH it is at 10%. Also going from a 470gr to 570gr out of your bow you will lose roughly 30fps.

Easton told you that you can only put 200gr tip/insert combo on the front of a fmj?


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## 41mag

IrkedCitizen said:


> Your 29" .340 FMJ with 125gr broadhead, 16gr HIT insert, 9gr X nock, and 20gr blazers (3x6.24+glue) only weigh 470gr? I get 498gr when I do the math. Does your 29" include or exclude the broadhead in the measurement?
> 
> When I use a FOC calculator using your arrow specs it says 12% FOC. When I use a 100gr BH it is at 10%. Also going from a 470gr to 570gr out of your bow you will lose roughly 30fps.
> 
> Easton told you that you can only put 200gr tip/insert combo on the front of a fmj?


Sorry for the delay got this up, then headed out of town to my nephew's wedding. 

My current arrow weight is 470 with the 100gr Slick Trick, and give or take what you got with the 125.

Well with my feeble effort, at least I came up with about what you did so I am hoping I figured it properly. 

I called Easton last week about it. Got a girl at first, then she transferred me to some fellow who I got into detail with. After telling him my specs on bow and current arrows, he said that I could up the insert weight in my 340's to 50gr with either head weight, but I would be right on the edge with the spine on it, but with the 300's, I could use up to the 100rg insert with the 100gr, but with the 125 I would probably only need to use the 75, which for THAT spine would be fine.

I was hoping to get in the 13-15% area using the 100gr heads which I have a couple dozen of, verses having to pick up some 125's just for this. I already have the inserts which were a bunch cheaper than new heads. Course then came the spine issue, so it might not be that much cheaper after all. I don't mind the added arrows in a 300, as I was looking to get some of the camo version anyway. Besides the wife has been asking what I wanted her to get me for my anniversary.

My main concern was dropping the speed down more than I wanted. I realize that speed isn't everything but it does help. The areas I hunt have some pretty sizable hogs which can easily hit 400#, and I am looking to have something that will blow through the shoulder plates on one that size. From 250 down what I am using now has had no issue, but I don't want to be on the ground with one, knowing I only stuck something in it enough to really piss it off. They do have this thing about wanting to share the pain, and having been there with both a rifle and handgun, I would rather NOT have to fend on off bull fighter style. For deer I am not in the least concerned as my 420gr carbon's blow through them like nothing, but a big hog is a far cry from a deer, more like a compact version of a grizzly. 

I took this one down on our farm at about 115yds, with my 25-06AI and it was only pushing the 300 mark. It had shields that were 1.5" thick, and the offside plate stopped a 120gr CL with a MV of 3320.


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## Rockyhud

41Mag, I don't know if this will ease your concern about losing some arrow speed or not but in my experience with different arrow weights and speeds I confirmed what several others have that slower, heavier arrows penetrate deeper than lighter arrows by quite a margin.

Another thing to keep in mind is that lighter, faster arrows lose speed more quickly over distance than do heavier, slower arrows over the same distance. The reason being faster arrows have to deal with higher air/wind resistance which causes them to more rapidly lose speed over distance and they don't have enough mass to help carry them forward to help maintain their speed. Nearly the opposite is true for slower arrows - there isn't as much air/wind resistance working against them and their heavier weight does enable them to carry their speed over distance with less drop in speed. It all has to do with higher moving mass (momentum) and to some extent being less affected by higher resistance imposed by moving through air.

One of the biggest changes I noticed when changing to heavier arrows was the initial sight pin settings were quite different. Due to the heavier arrows leaving the bow slower initially I had to adjust the sight aperture down - in effect my 35 yard pin setting for my faster arrows was now my 20 yard pin for the heavier ones. I have a single pin HHA slider sight which has a calibrated yardage tape which is how I know this. However, the interesting thing was the distance between yardage settings (i.e., moving the pin from 20 to 30 yards or 30 to 40 yards) was not very much difference between the different weight arrows. I attribute this to the fact the heavier arrows maintain their initial speed better over distance.

Bottom line here is I think your 570 grain arrows will actually have higher penetration potential than the 470 grainers. My 390 gr Maxima 350 (at 290 fps) don't penetrate either field tip or broadhead target near as deep as my 555 gr Gold Tip arrows (at 249-250 fps).

I hope my explanations and comparisons helped.


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## Rockyhud

BTW, I almost forgot to tell you, that is one nice big slab of bacon you have in your front loader.


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## Whitey375

41, A 29" standard black Axis 300 with a 75 grain insert and a 100 grain head willgive you an arrow that weighs right at 500 grains and has an FOC of 15%. Plus it has a decreased diameter that will improve wind resistance and will aid in deep penetration. FYI, my friend is shooting this exact set up out of his Reflex Growler which I believe has approximately the same IBO as your Admiral, 312-320, range and he is drawing them 29.5" inches and getting 260-265 fps at 70#.


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## 41mag

Rockyhud said:


> BTW, I almost forgot to tell you, that is one nice big slab of bacon you have in your front loader.


Thanks for the info and the comment above. He did eat pretty good, for an old boar hog. 




Whitey375 said:


> 41, A 29" standard black Axis 300 with a 75 grain insert and a 100 grain head will give you an arrow that weighs right at 500 grains and has an FOC of 15%. Plus it has a decreased diameter that will improve wind resistance and will aid in deep penetration. FYI, my friend is shooting this exact set up out of his Reflex Growler which I believe has approximately the same IBO as your Admiral, 312-320, range and he is drawing them 29.5" inches and getting 260-265 fps at 70#.


Thanks for the heads up ******. The wife got me a dozen of the 300 shafts for our anniversary, but I do have some 340 shafts, which I can use the 50-75gr inserts in. But I also have a bit less powerful bow that can use them just like they are for now as well. 

I put 6 of the 300's together last night. This afternoon I set up the chrono, just to see what I was up against. They came out as follows, 29" FMJ 300, with the 100gr brass insert, 3 Easton Diamond 280 vanes, and a 100gr tip came to 575grs total weight. The first couple of arrows through the chrony, to verify my bow setting, were a 29" 340 FMJ which weighs 470, and a 29" BPS Carbon Fury 340, which weighs 445grs. The 340 FMJ hit right in the range it was supposed to at 272fps. The Carbon Fury hit within a few FPS at 285, and last but certainly not least the 300 FMJ came across with a 249.5 avg for 10 shots. I rooted around in my tackle box and managed to find one 125gr field tip which I screwed in just to check the velocity with it, and got 245fps for a 10 shot average. Considering the Chrony was 8 feet in front of me, I am confident in these numbers.

After the shooting was over, I ran the numbers through a energy calculator and they all came up right around the 80ke mark, so I went and checked the FOC on them with each head and came up with 13% for the 100gr and 14.5% for the 125gr, to say the least, I am happy as a pig in @#it.

With the old bag target and field tips it was hard to tell anything about penetration, but they sure did hit a LOT harder, no doubt about it. I am really looking forward to putting them down range, checking for groups, and setting up the sight pins. 

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be some shore nuf tore up hogs come this fall, if not sooner. 

Thanks a ton for he help and info, I think with what I have gathered and what I have on hand here I am in business for sure. Course now the questionable part is the BH, but I am not worried that the ST's will pull their weight in one form or fashion.


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## Whitey375

So another 'final' set up, Easton Flatline 340's cut to 28" of carbon, 28.5" total length, 70 grains of Gold Tip brass, 100grain heads, 440 grains, and 17% FOC.


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## Rock Steady

41mag said:


> My main concern was dropping the speed down more than I wanted. I realize that speed isn't everything but it does help. The areas I hunt have some pretty sizable hogs which can easily hit 400#, and I am looking to have something that will blow through the shoulder plates on one that size. From 250 down what I am using now has had no issue, but I don't want to be on the ground with one, knowing I only stuck something in it enough to really piss it off. They do have this thing about wanting to share the pain, and having been there with both a rifle and handgun, I would rather NOT have to fend on off bull fighter style. For deer I am not in the least concerned as my 420gr carbon's blow through them like nothing, but a big hog is a far cry from a deer, more like a compact version of a grizzly.
> 
> I took this one down on our farm at about 115yds, with my 25-06AI and it was only pushing the 300 mark. It had shields that were 1.5" thick, and the offside plate stopped a 120gr CL with a MV of 3320.


41

IMO

Just checking, are you going to be aiming at the shoulder plates or the heart?

The fighting pad all but finishes just at the top of the heart and you will find even a 350g arrow will pass clean through. I agree if you plan to shoot through the shoulders and pad you will need strong heavy arrows with a decent FOC but there is not much in the way of vitals behind there for a broadhead to cut, great rifle shot just not a great bowhunting shot. 

I am not saying you are but I see a lot of rifle shooters who pick up a bow and try and shoot critters in the same spot as they would with a rifle which we know is only going to be a bad shot for an arrow:sad:.

The other great thing about heart shooting them is you don't need to go looking for them, they normally drop pretty quick.

Nice hog by the way.


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## ElkFetish

Rockyhud said:


> One of the biggest changes I noticed when changing to heavier arrows was the initial sight pin settings were quite different. Due to the heavier arrows leaving the bow slower initially I had to adjust the sight aperture down - in effect my 35 yard pin setting for my faster arrows was now my 20 yard pin for the heavier ones. I have a single pin HHA slider sight which has a calibrated yardage tape which is how I know this. However, the interesting thing was the distance between yardage settings (i.e., moving the pin from 20 to 30 yards or 30 to 40 yards) was not very much difference between the different weight arrows. I attribute this to the fact the heavier arrows maintain their initial speed better over distance.


Fascinating Thread. I have always shot heavy arrows but last year bought some light weight Maximas in an attempt to increase my range for a mule deer hunt I was taking. Not concerned about penetration issues I thought this would give me a better chance in the West where shots can be long. What I found is very similar to you. I saw a change in initial impact but pin gap was very similar and out at the longest distances I practice, 85 yards, they were actually worse with the lighter arrows. 

I think for this great info to really catch on the above info is what we need to get out to the masses. Flat trajectories are really the biggest desire for guys going to light arrows. Once they realize this may not be nearly as big of an advantage I think mindsets will change. 

Loving this info!


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## IrkedCitizen

You all need to check out the nonsense going on in this thread.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1274691

One dude doesn't grasp the concept of foc in general let alone efoc.


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## ElkFetish

As I was re-reading some of the posts to this thread I realized that many of the tests that have been done are with field points. Have any of these tests been done with broadheads? 

I guess what I am specifically interested in is the theory mentioned on a previous page that with 2 similarly weighted arrows, one with standard FOC and the other with EFOC would have the same point of impact. I can see this being true with field points but what about broadheads? I have always thought that a heavy tipped arrow would allow a broad-head to catch more air and be forced low faster compared to one with less of an FOC. 

Any thoughts on this?


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## Whitey375

Elk fetish, all the tests I have performed I validated with broadheads. If I could figure out how to upload a picture from my new stupid phone, I would show you a 5" group I shot at 60 yards last night. That was with arrows 100% ready to hunt with.


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## dx2

Although I have not done extensive testing, I have increased my FOC from around 12% to 15%, keeping the same weight arrow, and am happy with the results. 

I was using Beman MFX .400 with 100 grain tips, blazer vanes, at 380 grains roughly. Now, I am shooting GT 5575 (.400) with 125 grain tips, blazer vanes, at 383 grains roughly. Same length arrows and spine.

I am having better results with the GT arrows and higher FOC. Shooting fixed blade broadheads (snuffers) with a traditional profile and 1 1/4" diam. Shot them out to 50 yards last Saturday and was happy with the results. 

Would need to go back and try the MFX with the 100 grain tips at the same total weight, with the same broadheads, to really get a feel for the difference in POI or grouping ability with the higher FOC. If I do, I'll let you know what I find.


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## slim9300

Here's my take....

My current arrow is a GT 75/95 ProHunter at roughly 30" with a 50 grain GT weight screw, standard insert, 100 grain tip and 27 grain total weight Firenock. (478 total weight) I have always added weight to the front to make FOC somewhat acceptable with the lighted nocks. I always wanted more FOC but didn't want an arrow that was too heavy for my setup. (I prefer 280-290 fps out of my 60 lb. bow for elk hunting)

I recently switched over to my new bow and and modified my arrow to what is listed above. The old 444 grain arrow out of my 101st shot 285 fps and had a FOC of basically 8%. I just added 30 grains to the front via a 50 grain GT weight screw versus the 20 grain weight (what I had before) and about 1" in length to the shaft. My new arrow has a FOC of basically 12% and at 478 grains shoots exactly the same speed as my 101st used to with the lighter arrow; 284-285 fps. 

Here has been my experience with the higher FOC arrow:

The weaker spine is far preferred by both bows being that they were at 60 lbs. (ie. I was over-spined before) 

The arrow seems to be more forgiving to shoot. But that could also have to do with the new bow. 

The pin gaps are noticeably larger with fp's and bh's even though both arrows shoot identical speeds. This tells me that higher FOC leads to more drop at longer distances. I am aware that a heavier arrow will lose energy slower so it must be the higher FOC affecting the arrow drop. The difference isn't terrible. For example, my 5 pin Spot Hogg Right On is setup with the 20 pin maxed at the top of the sight and the bottom pin maxed out on the bottom. (20, 40, 60, 80 and 95) My 444 grain arrow (w/ 8% FOC) would allow me to have a 101 yard pin (w/ field tips) and my new 478 grain arrow (w/ 12% FOC and field tips) only allows me to have a 95 yard pin. Also, the gaps between the 40-60, 60-80 are noticeably larger. 

In summary, I won't be going back to the lesser FOC arrow. I am used to the gaps and I feel that the bow shoots better with the higher FOC arrow. Just wanted to throw out my experience even though my FOC isn't anywhere near extreme. LOL

BTW, been watching this thread for about a year now. Good stuff.


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## Aggieland

Anyone think I would be crazy if I switched from the setup i Have in my Sig.. To this.. 715 grain arrow 28.5% foc flying at 230fps.... right now I have a 580 grain arrow with 20.9% foc flying at 265.. Pin gap might get bigger but man. It would go through anything.. what do you think.. is it going to far?


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## ElkFetish

Aggieland said:


> Anyone think I would be crazy if I switched from the setup i Have in my Sig.. To this.. 715 grain arrow 28.5% foc flying at 230fps.... right now I have a 580 grain arrow with 20.9% foc flying at 265.. Pin gap might get bigger but man. It would go through anything.. what do you think.. is it going to far?


Curious how you like the XBOW Trick? Have you taken any game with it? I love the standard tricks and if I make a switch to better my FOC then it will be one of the broadheads I look at. How is durability, flight, and accuracy?

From what I have gathered the weight threshold for breaking through bone is at 650 grains so you would definitely be reaching that part. The single bevel broadheads seem to also be important when you look at shattering bone (better for penetration) or punching a hole through one. 

How far do you shoot and what animals? This is the part I am struggling with right now, trying to figure out how much distance I am going to loose and how much tougher range estimation will become. 

The advantages to this EFOC seems huge but I have to justify the negatives as well to be sure I still have a workable setup for my hunting style.


----------



## MD Archer

Maybe this has been answered in an earlier post, but how do you figure out FOC. I just bought some Carbon Express Meyham arrows and they are totally different than what I have shot and I did it because of the weight foward tecnology. Can someone help me figure out my FOC?


----------



## Whitey375

Make a line on your arrow at the midpoint, throat of the nick to face of the insert, then balance your assembled arrow on a knife blade. Mark the balance point, divide the distance between the marks by the length of the arrow you got before, that will be a decimal number. IE, 0.12345. Your FOC would be 12.345%.


----------



## MD Archer

Just got some rough numbers and I got 11.41%. Does that sound right with 28" Mayhem arrows with a 125 grain head? Seems ok to me.


----------



## Aggieland

ElkFetish said:


> Curious how you like the XBOW Trick? Have you taken any game with it? I love the standard tricks and if I make a switch to better my FOC then it will be one of the broadheads I look at. How is durability, flight, and accuracy?
> 
> From what I have gathered the weight threshold for breaking through bone is at 650 grains so you would definitely be reaching that part. The single bevel broadheads seem to also be important when you look at shattering bone (better for penetration) or punching a hole through one.
> 
> How far do you shoot and what animals? This is the part I am struggling with right now, trying to figure out how much distance I am going to loose and how much tougher range estimation will become.
> 
> The advantages to this EFOC seems huge but I have to justify the negatives as well to be sure I still have a workable setup for my hunting style.


So far, I like the head pretty well. It shoots great and I have no problems grouping with the 4" feathers I swtiched to.. Only negative I have is the blades can break easier than a fixed 2 blade would. But its a tuff head, Heading to NM for elk, deer and bears in 10 days. Maybe I will get to test them out !!!


----------



## Aggieland

Aggieland said:


> Anyone think I would be crazy if I switched from the setup i Have in my Sig.. To this.. 715 grain arrow 28.5% foc flying at 230fps.... right now I have a 580 grain arrow with 20.9% foc flying at 265.. Pin gap might get bigger but man. It would go through anything.. what do you think.. is it going to far?


No responces ? Come on fellas..


----------



## Whitey375

Md, sounds a bit low, as the Maxima 350's with a 125 at the same length are 14% or so, but I think the Mayhems are a bit heavier gpi wise.

Aggie, personally I would try the elk and bear with the heavies, and deer with the light one. But if you are going to take only one, take the heavy ones and try to hit some bone.


----------



## Aggieland

Whitey375 said:


> Md, sounds a bit low, as the Maxima 350's with a 125 at the same length are 14% or so, but I think the Mayhems are a bit heavier gpi wise.
> 
> Aggie, personally I would try the elk and bear with the heavies, and deer with the light one. But if you are going to take only one, take the heavy ones and try to hit some bone.


:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:wink: YES !!!


----------



## ElkFetish

Aggieland said:


> No responces ? Come on fellas..


Good Luck with the NM elk hunt. I am leaving on the 8th for my Idaho elk hunt and can't wait! 

I shoot 476 grains, FMJ 340's with a 100g tip, and have had pass-throughs on my last 4 elk since switching to the heavier arrow. But they were good shots (quartering away or broadside and no shoulder bones). 2 of the 4 hit one rib, 2 of the 4 hit a rib on each side. I would say you are in very good shape with the light setup for anything but shoulder bone. 

Even with all that I have read on this thread it is going to take me some time to get used to the thought of even thinking about hitting bone. I have spent my whole life learning to avoid it! Crazy Concept this EFOC. If it does help you to prepare for the worse then I think there is some real merit. 

If it is true that a heavy arrow with EFOC will take down a shoulder and still give you full penetration that would have added 3-4 more elk to my count and they would have been top 5 in size! The way it was I didn't want to risk the shot and passed. PAINFUL but the right decision with the setup I had.

Let me know how the X-bow Trick works if you get a chance to use it. I am very interested in the results!


----------



## Aggieland

I will keep you up to date. I can tell ya this the center piece of that head is not going anywhere its solid as a tank.. The blades are so so..


----------



## Koorsboom

> To this.. 715 grain arrow 28.5% foc flying at 230fps


As I am on the same road I would defenitaly go for it. What shafts are you using?

I am currently planning to use 28" FMJ 300s with a 130gr brass insert and 290gr Nanook. According to Archer's Advantage total arrow weight will be 765gr and FOC 26%. I woul like to get the arrow weight down closer to 700gr/650gr.

Arrow speed for the 760gr arrows should be in the area of 240f/s.

Rockyhud, 

what are you planning to hunt over here? My future setup for everything from Duiker to buffalo and giraff will be my Omen at about 60# and the arrow mentioned above. Should I be so lucky to afford an elephant one day I may turn up the Omen to 70# and use 900gr arrows :wink:


----------



## ElkFetish

Aggieland said:


> The blades are so so..


They are the same thickness as the standard tricks I shoot and I have had no problems with them. In fact I have reused heads many times after making a kill and they fly true. You should be real happy with the results.


----------



## dx2

Aggieland said:


> Anyone think I would be crazy if I switched from the setup i Have in my Sig.. To this.. 715 grain arrow 28.5% foc flying at 230fps.... right now I have a 580 grain arrow with 20.9% foc flying at 265.. Pin gap might get bigger but man. It would go through anything.. what do you think.. is it going to far?


Typical archer - never satisfied. :wink:

I say leave well enough alone, but what do I know...I've never ventured out into the realm of extreme FOC. It can depend on how far you are wanting to shoot game. I am familiar with pin gaps at 230 fps and you should have room for pins out to at least 60 on most hunting sights. 

There has to be a point where too much FOC becomes counter productive I would think but I haven't read through all of Ashby's stuff either so I'm just guessing. Any ideas or theories where that point might be?


----------



## Aggieland

Koorsboom said:


> As I am on the same road I would defenitaly go for it. What shafts are you using?
> 
> I am currently planning to use 28" FMJ 300s with a 130gr brass insert and 290gr Nanook. According to Archer's Advantage total arrow weight will be 765gr and FOC 26%. I woul like to get the arrow weight down closer to 700gr/650gr.
> 
> Arrow speed for the 760gr arrows should be in the area of 240f/s.
> 
> Rockyhud,
> 
> what are you planning to hunt over here? My future setup for everything from Duiker to buffalo and giraff will be my Omen at about 60# and the arrow mentioned above. Should I be so lucky to afford an elephant one day I may turn up the Omen to 70# and use 900gr arrows :wink:


Excellent. As for now im just hunting NA Big game.. I am in the same boat that I would like my total arrow weight to be around 650 grains for more speed. but its hard to get the exact weight when dealing with spine and compoents etc.. Im considering getting the omen at 60-70# and then finding the sweet spot. Will be slower than what im shooting now and have more drop. But it will penetrate anything I hit and make my bow quite as a mouse.. Going to roll with the ASBY 315 grain head.. If I make the changes.. Thanks for your input!.. My arrows are 25.5" my draw 27-27.5..... You have me beat in the speed dept..


----------



## Aggieland

dx2 said:


> Typical archer - never satisfied. :wink:
> 
> I say leave well enough alone, but what do I know...I've never ventured out into the realm of extreme FOC. It can depend on how far you are wanting to shoot game. I am familiar with pin gaps at 230 fps and you should have room for pins out to at least 60 on most hunting sights.
> 
> There has to be a point where too much FOC becomes counter productive I would think but I haven't read through all of Ashby's stuff either so I'm just guessing. Any ideas or theories where that point might be?


Can never have to much FOC.. If I could get 34% I would. You should read all his research. Its really eye opening and interesting.


----------



## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> Anyone think I would be crazy if I switched from the setup i Have in my Sig.. To this.. 715 grain arrow 28.5% foc flying at 230fps.... right now I have a 580 grain arrow with 20.9% foc flying at 265.. Pin gap might get bigger but man. It would go through anything.. what do you think.. is it going to far?


Hahaha! Aggieland thats the best post yet. 750grns in the dark continent is the norm 28% foc is not but would be bichin! If you can do it safely and are comfortable with the speed then I say:thumbs_up In fact youre average deer hunter from a stand isn't gonna have an arrow that outruns a jumped string at 20y which is the common distance. So why not hit em with a bazooka! forget the bone blasting capability, the shock alone from a setup like that would be intresting to test on deer sized game. However the arc of a 715grn 230fps arrow at a slightly misjudged 50y elk would leave me wanting a few more FPS:wink:
If you do build some do us all a favor and test them against your original setup... say 12% or so. I would be intrested in differences that extreme.


----------



## Aggieland

bullfisher said:


> Hahaha! Aggieland thats the best post yet. 750grns in the dark continent is the norm 28% foc is not but would be bichin! If you can do it safely and are comfortable with the speed then I say:thumbs_up In fact youre average deer hunter from a stand isn't gonna have an arrow that outruns a jumped string at 20y which is the common distance. So why not hit em with a bazooka! forget the bone blasting capability, the shock alone from a setup like that would be intresting to test on deer sized game. However the arc of a 715grn 230fps arrow at a slightly misjudged 50y elk would leave me wanting a few more FPS:wink:
> If you do build some do us all a favor and test them against your original setup... say 12% or so. I would be intrested in differences that extreme.


Here is what I have right now.. Strother SR-71 27.5" draw 81.5#'s.. Easton FMJ's .300 spine cut to 25.5" shaft to shaft.. 75 grain brass incert, 175grain Slick Trick Xbow Trick. and 4" feathers.....

Next setup will be the same arrow With the 315 grain Ashby head on it.. I will prob have to shoot a lower poundage bow due to spine weakness. But like I said the arrow should weight 715 grains have an FOC of 28% and fly around the 230 fps mark.. Depending on how many pounds the arrow will let me get away with.. I have some of the ashby practice heads. So this is going to be interesting.. lol. After my elk trip I will start playing around with all this. Keep you guys posted..

On a side note I let my cousin shoot my above setup into his morrell broadhead target at 10 feet.. And It took both of us him with both hands and me with one standing on the target to get the arrow out.. It was crazy. My 18-1 works much better.


----------



## rogbo

Aggieland said:


> I have some of the ashby practice heads. So this is going to be interesting..


Are your practice heads just some of the broadheads that you've dedicated to practice or have you actually found some sort of 315 grain field point. I can't find a "practice head" in 315 grains anywhere.


----------



## IrkedCitizen

rogbo said:


> Are your practice heads just some of the broadheads that you've dedicated to practice or have you actually found some sort of 315 grain field point. I can't find a "practice head" in 315 grains anywhere.


ABS sells them. 6 per pack.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/GrizzlyStik-Field-Points-P211C8.aspx


----------



## rogbo

Well what do ya know. There they are!


----------



## trex1210

I have followed this thread for a while, and I found it very interesting. 

I haven't gone to extreme, but I have changed up a bit and I am very pleased with the results so far.

I have a Monster 7.0 - 31" dl - 60lbs - 65% letoff, shooting 30" Gold Tip Ultralight 300's at 30". I am using a PDP 50g brass insert with 125 g broadheads and 3 x 3" fusion fletching. I am figuring my FOC to be around 16.5% unless I am wrong. 

Anyways, my arrows definitely penetrate better, and my long range shooting is better (not sure how much is contributed to the higher FOC, but I like to think some especially in windy conditions). 

I can't wait to shoot some real animals instead of the foam version.

Good luck to all!!


----------



## Aggieland

After considering all my options and talking with ED at Alaska bowhunting supply. He said that noone he has talked to has reached the 28% foc mark I was going to roll with that he deals with. And He told me some other news!!!! They will soon be selling the Ashby head in different weights. Which is awsome because if you ever get to lay eyes on that head in person, you will really really like it.. But Ed did say that these heads wont carry the Dr. Ashby name because they will have to have vents in the head to lower the weight and Dr. Ashby wont use a head with vents. But heck for me I will be ok with some vents in a head for NA game.. I think im going to use a 250 grain head instead of the 315 grain head. That will put my total arrow weight at 650 grains which is perfect for bone breaking and help with the arrow trajectory some.. Foc should be in the 23-24% range.. Depending on what bow I use next season the arrow speed will probably range somewhere between 220-230fps.. Anyway just thought I would keep the thread rolling and fill you guys in on what my brain is crunching........ Have a good season! Elk camp in T-4 days.. :wink:


----------



## ElkFetish

Thanks for sharing that news. Lighter heads for NA game would be very nice indeed. Abowyer sells a 260 g single bevel solid head now. Have you tried it?


----------



## Aggieland

ElkFetish said:


> Thanks for sharing that news. Lighter heads for NA game would be very nice indeed. Abowyer sells a 260 g single bevel solid head now. Have you tried it?


I have never seen these heads.. but man they do look nice!!!! Thanks for the post ..


----------



## ElkFetish

Aggieland said:


> I have never seen these heads.. but man they do look nice!!!! Thanks for the post ..


I thought they looked good too. Assuming they spin true they should be stellar. 

I would still like to see lighter weight heads to cover the 150-250 grain weights.


----------



## Aggieland

Ok here is what I have gathered from the aboyer site and from the Alaska bowhunter site.. What would be the difference between the two companys heads.. thanks for any advice! Seems both are almost identical. 

Weight: 260 Grain Single Bevel Broad Head

Size: 1 1/8 cut by 2 1/2 long

Features:

Cut On Contact Tanto Tip 
25 Deg Bevel 
.072 Thick Blade 
Cryogenic Treatment 
1075 Cutlery Grade High Carbon Steel Blade 
54 Rockwell Hardness 
Teflon-Molly Baked On Coating 
Laser Weld 
Ferrule Is CNC Machined From Solid Bar Stock 
Trailing Edge Bevel Resists Arrow Backing Out Of Wound Channel 
25 Deg Bevel Creates Ferrule Clearance For Sharpening 
Single Bevel Compounds The Arrows Rotation Upon Penetration For Better Bone Splitting 
“S” Cut Creates A Larger Wound Channel 
Positive Lead Cutting For The Most Efficient Use Of Energy Available 
Rotation Eliminates Friction On One Side Of Blade Increasing Penetration 
Lifetime Guarantee 
Price: Carbon: $55.00 + S&H - 3 pack

Alaska Bowhunting Supply..
Ashby Broadheads:
Machined from a solid piece of 440B Stainless Steel 
.072" Blade Thickness 
58 Rockwell Hardness 
Straight edge design 
25 degree Single bevel (right or left) 
Tanto tip 
Smooth transition, low profile ferrule 
Razor sharp and ready to hunt 
1 1/8" x 2 5/8" 
315 grains 
Screw in 
3 per pack


----------



## ElkFetish

Aggieland said:


> Ok here is what I have gathered from the aboyer site and from the Alaska bowhunter site.. What would be the difference between the two companys heads.. thanks for any advice! Seems both are almost identical.
> 
> Weight: 260 Grain Single Bevel Broad Head
> 
> Size: 1 1/8 cut by 2 1/2 long
> 
> Features:
> 
> Cut On Contact Tanto Tip
> 25 Deg Bevel
> .072 Thick Blade
> Cryogenic Treatment
> 1075 Cutlery Grade High Carbon Steel Blade
> 54 Rockwell Hardness
> Teflon-Molly Baked On Coating
> Laser Weld
> Ferrule Is CNC Machined From Solid Bar Stock
> Trailing Edge Bevel Resists Arrow Backing Out Of Wound Channel
> 25 Deg Bevel Creates Ferrule Clearance For Sharpening
> Single Bevel Compounds The Arrows Rotation Upon Penetration For Better Bone Splitting
> “S” Cut Creates A Larger Wound Channel
> Positive Lead Cutting For The Most Efficient Use Of Energy Available
> Rotation Eliminates Friction On One Side Of Blade Increasing Penetration
> Lifetime Guarantee
> Price: Carbon: $55.00 + S&H - 3 pack
> 
> Alaska Bowhunting Supply..
> Ashby Broadheads:
> Machined from a solid piece of 440B Stainless Steel
> .072" Blade Thickness
> 58 Rockwell Hardness
> Straight edge design
> 25 degree Single bevel (right or left)
> Tanto tip
> Smooth transition, low profile ferrule
> Razor sharp and ready to hunt
> 1 1/8" x 2 5/8"
> 315 grains
> Screw in
> 3 per pack


I would also be interested to find out the difference between Abowyer's stainless and carbon steel heads. I am sure there are positives and negatives to both.


----------



## Aggieland

I called and talked to the owner or I think he was anyway. Said the carbon heads were easier to sharpen and where more likely to bend than break and the stainless was more likely to break than bend. But I really don't know if You could really bend or break one of these heads very easy. Pretty interesting stuff. Looks like they have several options in head design so I will have to look and think more.. lol


----------



## ElkFetish

Aggieland said:


> I called and talked to the owner or I think he was anyway. Said the carbon heads were easier to sharpen and where more likely to bend than break and the stainless was more likely to break than bend. But I really don't know if You could really bend or break one of these heads very easy. Pretty interesting stuff. Looks like they have several options in head design so I will have to look and think more.. lol


Good to know. I will take the more likely to break than bend, stainless! Add better rust resistance and it should make for a deadly head.


----------



## Skeeter 58

Hey guys I was keeping up with this thread when it first showed up but have not read much since. I had a thought about the extreme FOC although I've never tried it. So for future purposes I am thinking about trying the new Slick Trick 175 grain X-Bow head. If I can find an arrow thats compatable with a 60 pound pull and that broadhead I may just give er a try next year. Any opinions on this?


----------



## Aggieland

Banjo Man said:


> Hey guys I was keeping up with this thread when it first showed up but have not read much since. I had a thought about the extreme FOC although I've never tried it. So for future purposes I am thinking about trying the new Slick Trick 175 grain X-Bow head. If I can find an arrow thats compatable with a 60 pound pull and that broadhead I may just give er a try next year. Any opinions on this?


Thats auctually the head im using this season.. Hope to try one out on an Elk in a week or so. The head is a pretty solid head but the only chance of failure it may have is breaking of the blades.. After I return from my elk hunt im probably going to start using a 2 blade cut on contact head.. But for all general purposes the xbow trick is a good choice.. On a side note you mentioned an arrow that will handle that head.. You should have no problem finding one.. I currently have Easton FMJ's .300 spine cut to 25.5" and have a 75grain incert with the 175 grain Xbow trick shooting it from an 82# Strother SR-71. The shaft does fine.


----------



## bullfisher

Aboyer is very cool indeed, thanks for that! I just ordered some simmons land sharks with a 25 degree single bevel. http://simmonssharks.com/ I really like an arrow in the 440 range at 20% efoc and at 165grn and a 20grn insert I should be right there. And at over an inch and a half there right up my alley. FYI if you want a single bevel head just ask dave the owner. He used to offer them but just didnt sell enough to continue advertising. I'll keep everyone posted on the Bh performance.


----------



## Whitey375

Aggie, just a thought, but I think you would get better FOC with the standard version of the axis, due to the lighter gpi.


----------



## Koorsboom

****** you are correct, but with such extreme weights on the tip I feel slightly more comfortable with the alunimum that will help keep things together if I somehow overdo it ...


----------



## white.greg

OK guys, here is my light weight arrow combination. Whitetail deer are my largest game animal.

380 grains total arrow weight, 18% FOC

-29" Carbon Express CX200 arrows
-3" feathers (mounted right behind the nock for maximum flight control)
-150 grains up front (125gr Outback Supreme's,15 gr insert, 10gr sleve)

Kentucky Whitetails lookout!


----------



## Whitey375

Koors, you're just being paranoid, lol. You make a good point though, carbon splinters would suck.

Mr White, what bow set up are you running?


----------



## white.greg

Whitey375 said:


> Mr White, what bow set up are you running?


Elite XLR, 31" & 60#
customized Quad rest, HHA single pin 

In the heat that we have been having all summer, I've been practicing by shooting across the dining room, through the kitchen, out the back door,over the deck, under the hand rail, and across the back yard to the target by the garage, 23 yards. Do what you gotta do : )


----------



## MSP21

How does this look coming out of a 70lb bow? I am thinking of going with the 125 grain head.


----------



## Whitey375

looks like it would hurt, a lot.


----------



## wyetterp

Has anyone used these? Booster screw in weights. 

http://www.aftershockarchery.com/booster.aspx?product=6


----------



## foudarme

ElkFetish said:


> Curious how you like the XBOW Trick? Have you taken any game with it? I love the standard tricks and if I make a switch to better my FOC then it will be one of the broadheads I look at. How is durability, flight, and accuracy?
> 
> From what I have gathered the weight threshold for breaking through bone is at 650 grains so you would definitely be reaching that part. The single bevel broadheads seem to also be important when you look at shattering bone (better for penetration) or punching a hole through one.
> 
> How far do you shoot and what animals? This is the part I am struggling with right now, trying to figure out how much distance I am going to loose and how much tougher range estimation will become.
> 
> The advantages to this EFOC seems huge but I have to justify the negatives as well to be sure I still have a workable setup for my hunting style.


I have killed these summer 2 french roe deers and a fox with the xbow trick...one deer, shoot from a tree stand, has fallen down immediately; the second one, shot while walking and stalking, has run less than 50 meters before falling dead... both of them have died in a few seconds thanks to a perfect shot and 515gr arrow with 15% Foc...the shot on the fox was not so good, it was running when my arrow has taken it in the rear part...it has been litteraly quartered by the shot and couldn't move any more so i killed it a few seconds later with another arrow...
Now I am ready for shooting with a new 20.5% EFOC setup with 0.300 victory HV v force v1 arrow and xbow trick...I shoot it with my 69#@30" destroyer cut at 28.75"...the arrow is a little bit weak so I begin to have some grouping differences between the field points and the BH passed 50 meters...at 50 meters they still group in an apple and in the same group that the field points...with the field points, my best groups at 70 meters are 5 centimeters for 3 consecutive arrows..but my average group at this distance is around 20 centimeters with the field points...with the xbow I get the same results but 8" on the right of the field points cause of my too much weak spine....hope it helps..


----------



## wyetterp

Ok, so I've been keeping up w/the best thread on AT & now I need some opinions. I bought new arrows, 
up my foc to 15.5% from 9%, & my pin gap just seems wacky. I need the advice from the efoc crew please.









I started a thread asking for opinions...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1311705&p=1058773149&posted=1#post1058773149

Thanks & I love the results so far. Excited to see the result on game this season.


----------



## Whitey375

Wyatt, those boosters suck. I mean, yes they do the trick, but they add noise and pulling them from targets is not easy.
Also define wacky in regards to your pin gap.


----------



## Whitey375

Aggie? How was elk hunting? Any results?


----------



## John Wayne

ok just found this thread the other day when Aggieland sent me the link. i have been ready the Ashby reports about it all. For years i have been shoting a 500g arrow in the 280ish range with mosly 80lb bows or the 82nd i had and thinking that i was doing it right. i have weight and good speed. but after reading his finding and all. i think that i need to step u the FOC some on my arrows. right now i am shooting 26.75 FMJ .340 with an 125g silverflame XL on it. last year i have a full pass through on an good size elk at about 45 yards. but on inspection i found that i did not hit a single rib bone at all. just right between them in and out. but i did take a small BB ( thought it was a doe ) as they are bigger up north then i was used to, with a quarting to shot that hit high. went in through the shoulder blade in the flat part, took out the spine, and a 2 ribs on the way out. this was a clean pass through and i never found the arrow. all of this out of the 82nd at 70# 28" DL. 

this year i am shotting the same arrow out of an 80# PSE dreamseason. so i think that ipicked up a some speed. 

what i am looking into is this. changing to the FMJ .300 with a 100g brass insert with the same 125g silberflame XL. inserts should be here this week. will do some testing when they get here. if all goes well i will try the Abower heads ( 1.5" whitetail heads these are 215g plus the 35g adapeter ) with just a plain insert. these are only 25g heaver then the first set up but more of the weight will be in the frount of the insert and they are a single bevel head which i have been wanting to try. i love the silverflame XL but i have been wanting to try the single bevels for a while and these look almos the same and the angle should be better as they are longer then the XL heads. 

this is basicly the same set up as aggieland has, so it seem like a good place to start with and then work from there. 

let the fun ( uh testing ) begain.


----------



## ElkFetish

So did anyone kill an elk or deer with the xbow trick and their high FOC setup? Curious how things went!


----------



## Aggieland

ElkFetish said:


> So did anyone kill an elk or deer with the xbow trick and their high FOC setup? Curious how things went!


Sad to say I never shot an Elk. My dad got one using some standard arrows through one shoulder (no bone) and stuck in the off side shoulder. I am now hunting at home and should have a shot at a pig or two soon.. Keep you guys posted. My next move is to start shooting the 260 grain abowyer heads with a different bow after tha ATA show..


----------



## John Wayne

OK the inserts came in. i guled in one last night. hope to fletch it tonight and then may be i can shot it on Wed. evening. 

the insersts are about 2.5" long. has anybody ever tried to cut one doen to get to say a 75 graind weight. i may try it if i need less weight on the insert size due to a larger head. 

with 26.75 FMJ .300 with 100g insert and 125g head on the front, out back is 3 2" razor feathers on as small of a wrap as I can get it. about 2.5" ( this is only about 6g plus the plain nock of about 6g if i remember right. ) total weight is 565.4g the only thing that i will add will be some easton broadhead rings when they come in. right now we are at 19% FOC. so i guess that put me in the HFOC range, was hoping to get in to the 20's range but will start with this. if i use the Aboyer heads and the plain inserts then i could get into there easy if they will fly good. 

will keep you posted as to how it flys.


----------



## white.greg

John Wayne said:


> OK the inserts came in. i guled in one last night. hope to fletch it tonight and then may be i can shot it on Wed. evening.
> 
> the insersts are about 2.5" long. has anybody ever tried to cut one doen to get to say a 75 graind weight. i may try it if i need less weight on the insert size due to a larger head.
> 
> 
> 
> with 26.75 FMJ .300 with 100g insert and 125g head on the front, out back is 3 2" razor feathers on as small of a wrap as I can get it. about 2.5" ( this is only about 6g plus the plain nock of about 6g if i remember right. ) total weight is 565.4g the only thing that i will add will be some easton broadhead rings when they come in. right now we are at 19% FOC. so i guess that put me in the HFOC range, was hoping to get in to the 20's range but will start with this. if i use the Aboyer heads and the plain inserts then i could get into there easy if they will fly good.
> 
> will keep you posted as to how it flys.


Don't forget to place your feathers just behind the nock (see photo in post 619). Doing this is the equivelent of adding 30 or more grains to the head of your arrow as far as flight control is concerned.


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## John Wayne

Thanks. i usally put them about .75" to 1" from the end. at it bothers me when they touch my face. ut i am planing on trying to keep them closer on this one, maybe a .25" or so and see if that works.


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## Whitey375

JW- Putting weight internally does not have the same dynamic spine effects as putting a heavy head on with a standard insert. So watch your setup closely for weak spine indicators when you start throwing heavy heads on. IMO you are already pushing it with 80# being an inch and a quarter longer than Aggieland. Also Easton makes their brass Dangerous Game insert that is 75 grains or 50 grains depending on if you snap off the end. Factory X-nocks are 9 grains.


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## Aggieland

Just ordered me some of the Abowyer 260grain heads.. Should be interseting, might have to post up some pics of them for you guys.. !


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## John Wayne

Aggieland, yes please do post some pics. with some other heads for comparasion. i am still looking at them and like the way the tested and look. 

ok shot the new set up some for about 15min this morning before heading into school and then work. the arrow showed some kick or weak spine. it still hit where i was aming, not hitting left of right or anything, dead on but just one pin low. at 25y i was on witht e 34y pin and at 34y the 42 pin is on. so i am still about the same drop for distance, i just have a different starting point. 

i think that the problem was that i used the 2" small razors feathers at the very end of the arrow. fletching them like that did not let the last 3/8" of the fletch be held by the fletcher so it had a hard angle the last bit of the fletch. so anyway i took it off this morning and will be putting some 3" shield cut feathers on this evening. 

i think that the main sway in the arrow was the bad fletching job i did. i will have to move them up to be about 1/2" for may be 3/4" to be able to keep the fletching correct to what i feel like is good. i have never had this problem before. so i think that the new longer feather and a longer wrap will take care of it. the wrap is 7g by itself now plus 3 feathers. i will lose maybe hair of FOC but now the arrows should fly righter. 

******, i do understand that. that is one reason that i figgered i would be ok as i do not have as much weight on the front as aggieland and also i have more weight in the insert then him. (or you may have been when i start to add the Aboyer heads, i am some worried it will be too much and i may have to turn the bow down some,) but i may have figgered wrong we'll see. 

also i have seen the break off weight of the 75 to 50g insterts, but i already have these and was just thinking about modifying then to see if that will do what i need and then i could buy a pack of them. Thanks for the weight on the nock. 

more test and playing to be done. will keep yall updated on what i fined.


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## John Wayne

now we are getting some where. last night o got home and fletched the arrow with 3" shield cut feathers with a right helical. total weight is 575g with a foc of 18.75%. it drop some cause i added a full sixe wrap and larger feathers. wrap was 7g and feathers are 2g each plus nock was 9g. total weight added to rear is 22g. not to bad. 

ok now to the fun part. shooting that thing. 

not sure what would happen my first shot was at 10y. hits about 2" high. next shot is at 25y, first pin. hit about 4-5" low. i know it would as i added about 80-100g to the arrow. so i shot it again and hit the same places. go at least they are consistant. so just to see how much they drop i shot the next few with my second pin at 25y. second pin is 34y. dead on the money, dead blue dot. so i back up to 34y and use the 3rd pin ( 42 yards is what is ws set for) still dead on. this works great all the way out to 50y. still in the bule dot at 50y. usaly i'm just around the dot at 50y and sometimes in it, but i just felt like i was right on it every time. this works great, now i can keep both set ups and not have to change anything just add a pin when shooting the heaver ones. i will be going to the new set up only as time and money permit the buying of the correct arrows. i will deffentaly be trying the Aboyer heads soon, ican get to about the same weight as i have now with teh 250g head and the plain insets and not the 100g brass im using now. i know if will be more weight in the front of the insert but i think that it will be able to handle it. we will have to see. i will be adding this one arrow to my quiver now and it will be the first arrow on my bow come saturday. i'm really excited it work good. we need some pictures of deer killed with HFOC on this thread. Lord willing i will be adding one soon. 

so the set up is this.
Bow is a 09 PSE Dreamseason 28" DL and 80# DW
Arrow is a Easton FMJ .300 blank at 11.6 ( i think, old ones not the new ones) cut to 26.75 shaft plus nock
Added to arrow Front = 100g brass insert with a 125g Silverflame XL
Back = nock, 3" feathers and wrap ( total weight is 22g) 

hope this helps someone out. 

i will add more when i get the Aboyer heads in and get to play with that some.


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## Aggieland

What made you decide to put a wrap on your arrow? Just wondering I tried to keep the back of mine as light as possible, seems it takes a very small amount of weight at the back to make big changes in FOC. Anyway glad to hear your setup is shooting lights out and you might be drawing blood soon. Im planning on chasing some hogs this afternoon so maybe I can get a pic or two on here soon as well.!!


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## John Wayne

i used the wraps because i have always had a hard time getting the blazers to stick to a bare shaft. i have not tried to glue feathers to a bare shaft. just get stuck in that way of thinking that they will not stick and then i feel like i have to use a wrap on all of them. 

i did cut the wrap down this morning. that removed about 3g from the back and moved my FOC up about 2/8" so yes it is very surprising what a few grains can do for you. on hte next ones i fletch i will try it with out the wraps and see what i get. i have not shot it sense i cut some of the wrap off. will do that tonight but am not ecpecting it to have any bad effects on the flight.


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## Aggieland

Well, I received my first three Abowyer, 260 grain grizzly heads in today and let me tell ya something.. These things are freakin SHARP, The heads come shipped with some sort of plastic or rubber Gel over the edges for protection. Of course, I decided to remove just part of the gel and the first thing I do is let my right thumb just touch the edge.. Yep cut myself, just a little nick that took the first layer of skin off nothing bad.. The head is the one pictured in my Avitar, it is almost black due to the teflon coating but the edge is silver and way sharper than I ever imagined you could get a head like this.. So far I am really really impressed, the head dosent feel really heavy in your hand like I thought It might, it's build solid. I give it :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up I will try and post pics later, if you decide to try these heads just be careful they are as sharp as any thunderhead or muzzy blade I have ever owned. Pretty impressive..


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## John Wayne

In the reading of the some of the Ashby reports, i see that some of the arrow that have such high FOC are internally footed. i can not find out much about that. i do see that most if not all of them are used on lower draw weight bows. but i was wandering if that is something that we are over looking and could be what it takes to get over that hump of not haveing enough spine options. i will do some more searching but does any body else have any ideas on this. might be a better option if your using the goldtip big game 100+ insead of the the FMJ like i am working with.


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## deerheaven

*I'm no expert,,,,average hunter*

I have been shooting Questproductsusa arrows called the Thumper,,,shaft that is a weight-forward tapered shaft .They fly awsome...with any style broadhead and weight pt..


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## IrkedCitizen

deerheaven said:


> I have been shooting Questproductsusa arrows called the Thumper,,,shaft that is a weight-forward tapered shaft .They fly awsome...with any style broadhead and weight pt..


Thanks for posting about that company! They make a .250" spine deflection arrow that weighs 9gpi. I have been looking for a lightweight .250 spine arrow.

I cannot find a website though only information on AT.


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## Aggieland

Internally footed basically means, (if im not mistaken) you have the incert inside the shaft a ways like the 75 grain brass incerts I use. This helps to keep the shaft from breaking behind the broadhead..

Considering your Shaft is critical because I have a shorter draw length, I am able to shoot .300 spine FMJ's cut to 25.5" in length. This makes the spine much stiffer but with the 260 grain heads I will have to decrease my poundage some. I am currently shooting this shaft with 175 grain heads a 27.5" draw length and 82#'s from an SR-71

One thing I will point out about Ashbys research no matter what if you hit large bone.... you need 650 grains of total arrow weight. So remember that when you think about lighter shafts, but for tissue the higher the FOC the better and if you find a light really stiff shaft like deerheaven has posted above you can shoot a really heavy head and incert and still get your total arrow weight where you want it. Expecially if you have a longer draw length..


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## IrkedCitizen

Aggieland said:


> Internally footed basically means, (if im not mistaken) you have the incert inside the shaft a ways like the 75 grain brass incerts I use. This helps to keep the shaft from breaking behind the broadhead..
> 
> Considering your Shaft is critical because I have a shorter draw length, I am able to shoot .300 spine FMJ's cut to 25.5" in length. This makes the spine much stiffer but with the 260 grain heads I will have to decrease my poundage some. I am currently shooting this shaft with 175 grain heads a 27.5" draw length and 82#'s from an SR-71
> 
> One thing I will point out about Ashbys research no matter what if you hit large bone.... you need 650 grains of total arrow weight. So remember that when you think about lighter shafts, but for tissue the higher the FOC the better and if you find a light really stiff shaft like deerheaven has posted above you can shoot a really heavy head and incert and still get your total arrow weight where you want it. *Expecially if you have a longer draw length.*.


Exactly. That is what I have been dealing with. Long DL means long arrows and with higher poundage bows a .300 is only good for so much. I could have shot a DG .250 fmj but at 17.2gpi I wouldn't have gotten any increase in FOC over a standard FMJ 300 even with a heavier BH. I would just be shooting a heavier arrow for the same FOC.


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## ElkFetish

Here is there site with additional info

http://www.questproductsusa.com/thumper.html


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## ElkFetish

Anyone know what kind of nock and insert/outsert they use?


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## IrkedCitizen

ElkFetish said:


> Anyone know what kind of nock and insert/outsert they use?


I sent a pm asking about inserts. But the thumper uses X nock and the quickstrike uses a custom nock.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1314870


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## Glenn-bob

*Nitro Stingers*

Nitro Stinger arrows are weight forward tapered arrows...I have some F/S on the accessory section of archery F/S forum...Might work for somebody :smile:


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## Aggieland

If I had a long draw length like some of you guys. I would look at the Victory Armour Pearcing shafts.. They have a 40 something grain incert/outcert and they are tiny shafts. But they are pretty stiff, I can tell you what im currently shooting is honestly overkill for North American game. So even if you never reach the FOC I can get you will still blow through anything you shoot. And you will do it at a faster flatter shooting arrow than I can..


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## John Wayne

So basicly we already have an internally foot arrow. as the 100g brass inserts i have are Looooong. just a thought.


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## IrkedCitizen

Aggieland said:


> If I had a long draw length like some of you guys. I would look at the Victory Armour Pearcing shafts.. They have a 40 something grain incert/outcert and they are tiny shafts. But they are pretty stiff, I can tell you what im currently shooting is honestly overkill for North American game. So even if you never reach the FOC I can get you will still blow through anything you shoot. And you will do it at a faster flatter shooting arrow than I can..


I have looked at the Victory arrows and the Victory armor piercing shafts only go to .350 spine. I shoot 72# at 31" DL so I need at minimum a .300 spine even with a 30" arrow.


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## deerheaven

IrkedCitizen said:


> Thanks for posting about that company! They make a .250" spine deflection arrow that weighs 9gpi. I have been looking for a lightweight .250 spine arrow.
> 
> I cannot find a website though only information on AT.


yes they do,,,,A QuickStrike #Q02205 Parallel shaft for draw weights from 60lbs. to 90lbs. weight is 9.0 grains per inch and the deflection is 250
Gold 69


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## Aggieland

IrkedCitizen said:


> I have looked at the Victory arrows and the Victory armor piercing shafts only go to .350 spine. I shoot 72# at 31" DL so I need at minimum a .300 spine even with a 30" arrow.


Wow thats a long draw.. Umm What I would do in your case is try to get around the 650 grain total arrow weight and try if possible to get your FOC over say 19 percent by looking at different arrow combos. It will take some work and its going to be hard for you but I believe you can do it.. Also if you look at the arrow charts for Easton or TAP program they show my setup to be way way way under spined but I believe these shafts are stiffer than these graphs show. Even the pro that set mine up on the hooter shooter etc said there were no spine issues. Just a thought.


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## slim9300

Aggieland said:


> Wow thats a long draw.. Umm What I would do in your case is try to get around the 650 grain total arrow weight and try if possible to get your FOC over say 19 percent by looking at different arrow combos. It will take some work and its going to be hard for you but I believe you can do it.. Also if you look at the arrow charts for Easton or TAP program they show my setup to be way way way under spined but I believe these shafts are stiffer than these graphs show. Even the pro that set mine up on the hooter shooter etc said there were no spine issues. Just a thought.


The "charts" are B.S. in terms of spine when it comes to reality. They always seem to recommend too much spine. I am not the only one to think so. Crackers will tell you the exact same thing.


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## IrkedCitizen

Aggieland said:


> Wow thats a long draw.. Umm What I would do in your case is try to get around the 650 grain total arrow weight and try if possible to get your FOC over say 19 percent by looking at different arrow combos. It will take some work and its going to be hard for you but I believe you can do it.. Also if you look at the arrow charts for Easton or TAP program they show my setup to be way way way under spined but I believe these shafts are stiffer than these graphs show. Even the pro that set mine up on the hooter shooter etc said there were no spine issues. Just a thought.


Yeah I have a long draw. I am 6'7" tall so if I had T-rex arms I'd look weird. Lol. Also I don't hunt anything that needs a 650gr arrow. I'd like to stay in the low 500's and get a medium FOC. We'll see if these Quest arrows will meet those needs. The Thumper HD is 9.25gpi at 30" is 277.5gr, 9gr for the X nock, 17gr for vanes/glue, 75-100gr insert, 100-125gr tip, for a weight of 478.5 - 553.5gr depending on the tip/insert combo. That should net me a decent FOC because my arrows are roughly 495gr right now and I have a FOC in the 9's.

They also have a .275 spine that I could always try out too. 



slim9300 said:


> The "charts" are B.S. in terms of spine when it comes to reality. They always seem to recommend too much spine. I am not the only one to think so. Crackers will tell you the exact same thing.


I'm not worried about having a spine that is too stiff as I can add more tip weight for more FOC or turn up the poundage. My bow has 80# limbs on it.


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## John Wayne

just some observations from the last few days. 

after reading about the S cut of singal bevel heads. i started looking at broadhead target and i seem to be getting an S cut already. while i am not sure when it started, i do think that is started when i switched to 3" feathers from blazers. i did not change my fletcher at all, but i do seem to be getting a lot more rotation now then in the past. i sure it is not as much as i will get with the singal bevel heads when they come in but i did think it odd that was getting some rotation with the silverflames heads. and it is not just on the surface. after i noticed this i shoot it a few times in an area that did not have any shots around it and i could tell that my arrow had made about 1/2 a rotation in the 12-14" that it travaled.


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## Rockyhud

Well, I'm glad to see this is still an active thread and "new" participants and observations in it to boot. Earlier someone (a couple of pages back) asked what I'd be going out hunting with this year. I had intended to take my heavy/HFOC setup, being Gold Tip Big Game 100+ with 215 gr Grizzly El Grande heads and Fusion 2" vanes, but alas I didn't have time to get the scary sharp edges on them and I also ran into questions and uncertainty as to how best to shape and sharpen the Tanto tip on them. Consequently I went with my CX Maxima 350s with 100 gr 4-blade Stingers, Blazer or Fusion vanes and internally weighted inserts. I now have a pretty good idea of how to deal with the Tanto tip so unless something comes up that's an even better setup between now and next year's hunts the GTBG/Grizzly combo will be in my quiver for elk and bear in 2011.

Just to bring everyone up to date on the Maxima 350s, I had added a 50 gr Gold Tip insert weight earlier but this didn't get the FOC as high as I wanted, so one thing I did before the hunt was experiment with adding another 20 gr weight. This increased FOC to just under 18% and the arrows were leaving the bow very nice and straight and hitting my targets straighter and with more punch. I wasn't sure they would handle the weight but so far they've performed very well. While shooting these the other day I accidentally touched the trigger of my release too much before I was settled on target and the arrow flew away and hit the steel frame of the drive through gate next to my target. Amazingly it hit almost straight on, blunting the tip of the field point, but to my surprise there was no damage to the shaft or insert. I checked it several times, feeling it and bending it more than I normally do for detecting cracks and found nothing. I've shot it several times since with a new field point and it shoots just like it did before the incident. 

Anyway, back to the setup. My new Maxima 350 setup now weighs 460 grains and shoots and groups very nicely, so I think this will work well for smaller game like whitetail and pronghorn and such. One thing I've noticed is they aren't as affected by windy conditions as they were when they only weighed 390 grains and had barely 8% FOC. I'm currently in between the first and last part of the Colorado Plains Only Whitetail bow season which starts again Nov 3 and runs through Dec 31. I found some private land out east that has some whitetail on it and hope to see how the Maxima setup works on that size game. I'll definitely report back and upload photos if I get a deer.

I also took the Maxima setup on my elk and bear hunt in mid/late September, and while I and my partner called in several spike bulls up close and personal on a couple of different days and I saw the biggest black bear I've ever seen in the wild on another, I never got a chance to draw down on any game. The spikes weren't legal to take in any units I hunted and the bear was seen running from private land on one side of the county road I was slowly driving on and ran into private land on the other side. I got a good look at him though as he was only about 30-40 yards in front of my truck when I first saw him and 10 yards or less when I stopped and saw him go back into the brush. I'm not an expert but I guessed him to be about 400 lbs. I would have loved the chance to stick him. I'm thinking I'll be returning to this GMU for bear again next year.

One other thing that I'll report back on that will be new. Right after returning from my elk/bear hunt I talked with one of the archery pros at Sportsman's Warehouse in Colorado Springs, after seeing a photo of the cow elk he shot this year. Besides seeing how large the cow was, what drew my attention was the fletchings he had on the arrows he used to take her - they were Bi-Delta Sharkstooth vanes. He told me how well they flew and how his groups tightened up after putting these on. He had one arrow on site and when you look down the shaft it appears to have 6 vanes instead of the usual 3 because of the right helical used. He attributes the improved accuracy and tight groups to the increased stability these vanes provide. So, I bought a 36-pack of 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes to try on both my Maxima 350s and GTBG 100s. I'll fletch up a few of each and compare how they perform with field points and broadheads against my current setups. The 2.5" version only weighs 4.5 gr each so I'll gain a little increased FOC even over the Blazer vanes I have on most of the Maxima shafts, plus I'll glue them about 1/2" away from the nock to get the most steering from them and lowest FOC as possible.


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## Aggieland

Excellent, keep me posted on those vanes and pm me or post up their web page.


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## Rockyhud

Glad to help Aggie. Here's the website.
http://www.bideltavanes.com/

Once I get these vanes glued on and checked out I'll definitely post my findings. Besides the anticipated improvement in spin stability, which hasn't been bad with Blazer and Fusion vanes, they are a real eye catcher with their unique two-vanes-in-one appearance. If you (or anyone else) decide later to buy some let me know. I know a guy on AT that can get them for a good price - my package of 24 orange and 12 white 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes cost $12 shipped to my door.

And thanks for all the info you provided on the Abowyer heads. They sound like some very high quality hunting hardware. It will be interesting to hear more as you get more time with them.


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## IrkedCitizen

So I finally contacted Quest Products USA to get more information on their arrows. I talked with them for a good while. I started off by talking to Sheen and then he transferred me over to Chad and I talked to him about the more technical side of it. For the Thumper shafts they use the adjustable nitro insert made by PDP which weigh roughly 26.2-26.4gr and it accepts their add-on adapters and weights.

Like I have stated before in this thread I have a 31" draw and shoot 73# and a 30.5" arrow. Chad told me that with their Gold spine Thumper I should be able to easily add 300gr to the front of a 30.5" arrow and have the correct spine. So I have 3 Thumper Gold shafts being shipped to me and he is fletching with 2" vanes cut to 30.5" with the inserts not installed so I can mess around with different add-on weight combinations. This shaft is tapered like the ABS and other shafts.

I am excited to see how this pans out. This could be helpful to all of the other long draw/long arrow archers looking to up their FOC. I will keep you all posted. My bow is currently out getting new strings and tuned so I won't be able to shoot them until I get that back. But while that is happening I should be able to mess with the weights/inserts to get the FOC percentages.

Edit: Also the thumper arrows retail for $110-120 per dozen.


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## Aggieland

Man for an unheard of arrow company, sounds like a make a nice stiff shaft. You should have one heck of a kick butt setup after you slap all that together with your draw length!


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## IrkedCitizen

Supposedly they have been making carbon arrows for 20 years. If these .275 spine arrows don't cut it they offer a .257 spine that I can go to as well. One of them will work I am sure.

Sheen was telling me how he made arrows for an Old Timer MLB pitcher from years back. That the guys hands went down to his knees. He said the shafts were 39" long. I don't remember which pitcher he said it was but that is a really long arrow.


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## John Wayne

i have been E-mailing them as well. they sound like what we have been looking for. getting a little bit more info from them and then i will be ordering some of the Thumper HD. whould be able to build an arrow with an FOC in the high 20's that will weight about 600g. That is with an Abowyer 250g head. i am checking if i could up the weight to a 315g head to break the 650g total arrow weight min that Ashby has found to be the min to consistanty break bone. if they work and i do not have to turn the bow down i should be in the 250-260fps range. 

i am having good luck with the the FMJ .300 with brass inserts 100g plus 125g sliverflames now. with an arrow weight of about 580g. and an FOC of 18.75 or so. 

Looks like we are getting somewhere.


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## ORrogue

Wow I have to check to see if this is the trad forum... just kidding its good to see the compound guys getting the most out of the available energy that your bows are capable of. I didn't read all of the posts but am eager to see how you all like your setup's when finished. I shoot a blackwidow recurve @55lbs with my draw length with a carbon venture 350 a 100gr brass insert and 225gr two blade broadhead. My FOC is slightly over 20%, I have penetrated both shoulderblades on a cow elk(deflected shot) with this and have never looked back.
I don't know if it has been said but the higher foc arrows do come out of paradox faster than the lower ones do. 

Internal and external footings will help get the foc op there also.
Im gonna go back and read a few more posts...good luck


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## Rockyhud

Interesting observation that ORrogue noticed with higher FOC arrows coming out of paradox quicker that lower ones. That's one of the things I noticed when I first started shooting my Gold Tip BG 100s with 200+ grains up front. This also carried over to my Maxima 350s after I added more insert weight. Reading how he punched through BOTH shoulders of a cow elk is pretty impressive too. I doubt many elk hunters, if any, shooting light arrows have done that.

After reading what Irked Citizen found out about Quest arrows we may have another high spined and tapered shaft to consider for big game hunting shafts. It will be interesting to read more as he and possibly others get their hands on these and put them through the wringer.


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## Rockyhud

Here's my first experience/report with my new 2.5" Bi-Delta Sharkstooth vanes.

Even though, and partly because, it was quite windy today I took 6 arrows outside to shoot at 20, 30 and 40 yards, with 2 arrows each having Bi-Delta 2.5" Sharkstooth, 2.1" Fusion and 2" Blazer vanes. This shooting session was done using my Maxima 350s with field points - broadhead testing will come later. During the shooting of one arrow with Bi-Delta vanes from 40 yards a very strong cross wind gust came up just as I was about to bring my sight pin on target and let the arrow fly. It blew me off target so suddenly it caused me to punch the trigger and my shot hit part of our back yard fence/drive-through gate next to my target. The arrow didn't handle that well as all I found afterward was about 8 inches of the tail end with nock broken off and the front part of one Sharkstooth vane stripped off. I haven't found the front part.

Up to that point though I was getting a pretty good impression that the arrows with Sharkstooth vanes were flying quite nice, even with the strong winds that were predominantly cross winds. I don't recall having shot with the winds as strong and gusty as they are today. A few things stood out from this brief experience. First, the Bi-Delta vanes seemed to not be affected much by the winds, even strong cross winds. The Fusion vanes also flew surprisingly well and didn't seem to be affected much by the winds. However, the Blazer vanes didn't fair nearly as well in the wind; these arrows were consistently blown off target by quite a bit. Blazer vanes had performed nice in much calmer conditions which is why I hadn't gotten away from them but after seeing how the winds affected them, and knowing how much wind we generally get here, I think I have a good reason to not use them any more.

Also, while changing some shafts from Blazer to Bi-Delta vanes I made some weight measurements before and after. In short, what I found was the shafts fletched with 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes weighed about 5 grains less than the same shafts with Blazer vanes. The arrows with Fusion vanes weigh about 3 grains more than Blazers. I also took note the Sharkstooth vanes aren't quite as tall as Blazers or Fusions, but fairly close to Fusions.

Based on today's session and my weight and height comparisons I believe the Sharkstooth vanes performed as well as they did for several reasons. First, they weigh less which helped some with maintaining or increasing FOC slightly. Second, the "vented" style of vane apparently doesn't catch as much air/wind from the side which is probably a big reason they flew so well in the strong cross winds. The bi-delta configuration, and fletching these with right helical position, essentially creates 2 sets of 3-vanes with the net effect of having 6 vanes steering the arrow as it travels forward, providing stronger steering influence on the shaft. Their height being slightly less, particularly compared to Blazers, seemed to be an advantage in that they caught enough air while traveling forward to steer the shafts well but they weren't so tall as to catch the cross winds and cause errant flight like the Blazers. Even though this was a fairly short session with the Sharkstooth vanes my initial impression is good.

I'm going to strip the Blazers off all remaining Maxima shafts but 2 and fletch all these with Bi-Delta and Fusion vanes in equal numbers and compare these again. Once this is done I'll shoot these same arrows with my Magnus Stingers and see how they both perform. If the Sharkstooth vanes do as well as I think they will I'll begin fletching some of my heavy Gold Tip shafts with them and repeat the tests. I'll keep you posted as I progress through this.


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## Aggieland

Excellent, I can't wait to hear how the broadhead testing goes.. On a side note would you consider comparing these to say some 4" Helical feathers? It may be a pain for you to try but the weight savings from feathers is something that really played into my setup. Any weight saved on the back of the arrow helps and feathers are really light. Anyway thanks for the update and keep us posted im fired up. 

On a side note, do you guys think im crazy to shoot a 660 grain arrow with 25% foc for north american game? Im beginning to wonder if I have gone way over board.. catch ya later!!


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## Rockyhud

Aggie, I don't think 660 gr with 25% FOC is crazy at all. According to Dr Ed Ashby that should be just about optimal for busting through bone as well as having dart-like flight.

As to trying feathers I don't think I will. I know they're lighter and further help increase FOC but they are also known to cause the arrow to slow down more over distance than vanes. With my hunting being in the west and most shots probably at longer than 20-30 yard distances I'd prefer my arrows to retain as much downrange velocity as possible. According to the "Fletching Report" article on archeryreport.com, feathers had the highest velocity right out of the bow, as expected, but also lost speed the fastest over distance. Surprisingly, next to the AAE Plastifletch Max FP210 vanes, Fusion vanes lost the least amount of speed and had the least drop over distance of all vanes tested. It's a pretty interesting review - it can be read here ( http://archeryreport.com/2009/10/fletching-review-speed-drop/ ). I've read about feathers slowing down quickly on other forums as well, hence my reluctance to try them. Plus, I don't shoot with near as much draw weight as you so my starting velocities are all going to be slower than yours, all things being equal. I do appreciate your interest though. Maybe someone else might pick this as a small experiment and report their findings.


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## Aggieland

Well, I can say those vanes your trying are down right awsome looking and if they work for you. I may be making the switch over, kinda depends on how much they weigh and how much it affects my foc. I do know the feathers im using are amazing at stablizing my arrows but for the spot and stalk hunting I did out West and climbing in trees here in Texas. The feathers are not holding up very well and I baby my gear way more than most. I wonder if you had some of the bohing x vanes shield cut and 4 fletched them how it would compare to those bi delta vanes in stablization and weight.. Got my head turning now...


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## IrkedCitizen

I know that deer and elk can see UV colors but I want to try these. http://www.flexfletch.com/products/glow-vanes/

FHP200 Flash. 2.05" long, .490" tall, 4.8gr each. That is a lower profile than blazers and less weight as well. 

I can get them in other colors than the glow but I want them to glow since you cannot use lighted nicks here in Colorado. Lighted nocks also throws off the FOC. So these should be a good alternative.


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## ORrogue

Interesting how things come full circle I havent seen the bi delta vanes around much in the last 15 years guess they are making a comeback. Rockyhud I dont think you will be losing as much downrange speed as you might think with feathers, yes they create more drag than vanes but heavier and high FOC arrows hold their momentum longer than light shafting does. On a side note the higher FOC arrows dont need as much rear stabilizing as arrows with a lower FOC. I have a friend here who is shooting approxamately 22% foc and only using 2 feathers set 180 degrees from each other. Look forward to hearing how your wind shear testing goes...


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## Rockyhud

Interesting concept, these glow-in-the-dark vanes. They would definitely be legal since there's nothing electric about them. I do wonder if they would catch game animals' attention in the low light of morning and evening when lots of them are most active. Their weight is ever so slightly more than the 2.5" Sharkstooth's 4.5 gr and close to the .5" height of these too. They could be a nice vane to use and if they don't spook game in low light they could be a real boon to Colorado bow hunters looking for a legal way to light up arrows.

Aggie, I forgot to include one other reason I don't want to try feathers and that is the additional cost to acquire these. Being in between jobs now we're not spending as freely as we would if we had my normal income nowadays. We feel fortunate that our living expenses are very reasonable, such that we can afford for me to take several days at the end of this week to travel to eastern Colorado for the second part of my plains whitetail either sex deer bow hunt. This is also one of the reasons I want to nail down which vanes I'll be using as I want to be ready for any weather and wind conditions I may encounter and high winds is one of those factors that happens fairly frequently here and the plains.

ORrogue, you make a good case for feathers, considering we're focusing on heavier arrows and higher FOC. While I was talking with the guy I bought them from he mentioned several people he' s sold them to who have fletched arrows using 2 Sharkstooth vanes and reporting good results, even with the broadheads they were using (don't know what there were though). The Bi-Delta website even has some info/guidance on using 2-fletch 180 degree setups.


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## IrkedCitizen

Rockyhud said:


> Interesting concept, these glow-in-the-dark vanes. They would definitely be legal since there's nothing electric about them. I do wonder if they would catch game animals' attention in the low light of morning and evening when lots of them are most active. Their weight is ever so slightly more than the 2.5" Sharkstooth's 4.5 gr and close to the .5" height of these too. They could be a nice vane to use and if they don't spook game in low light they could be a real boon to Colorado bow hunters looking for a legal way to light up arrows.


That is what piqued my interest about them. Flex-Fletch makes good products anyway. Their vanes have no memory so it will return to static if they are crumpled by a target or another arrow. Unlike blazers where if they bend or crumple they are done.

I really want to try the glow vanes out. I lost an arrow this season and if I had the glow vanes I could have went back at near last light and had a chance to find it. But it wouldn't just be for that reason. I would like to be able to see where my arrows hit during low light.


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## John Wayne

Ok i received in my Abowyer heads yesterday.The 2 heads that i bought were teh 215g whitetail with an 43g adapter for a total of 258g. the other head for larger animal is the Brown bear at 175g with a 75g adapter for a total of 250g. Both of these heads look great. i have a few pictures of the heads side-by-side with the silverflames and the silverflame XL. if somebody would like to post them on here i can e-mail them to you. just shoot me an e-mail at [email protected] 

hope to get to shot them some on Wed. i got the heads glued up last night.


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## Rockyhud

Sounds great, John. Aggie also reported these are very good quality heads and very sharp right out of the package. Is there no way you can upload pics of these heads and post them here?


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## John Wayne

i do not have an online account to be able to upload them. i know that they are free but i have just not got them.


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## IrkedCitizen

You can host them on AT. Where you submit a reply click "go advanced". It'll take you to an advanced messaging with more options. On the top row next to the font and size there is a paperclip. After you have clicked on that int he pop-up click on "add file" at the top right. After you have found your file click the upload button. Once the file has uploaded you type your message and submit it. The picture should then be attached.


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## BowTechCDR

Stupid question here and I don't mean to hijack, but, what is the formula for finding FOC???

My math never comes up anywhere near 10-20% FOC. Obviously, I don't understand FOC.

26.25" carbon to carbon X Ringer HV V5 350 6.5gpi = 170.625g. (1/2 shaft weight = 85.3125g) X2 vanes: 3 x 4.5g = 13.5g. Pin nock adapter and nock = 21.4g. Insert = 40g. Tip = 85g. Total arrow weight 330.6g. Tip and insert weigh 130g. FOC????


Thanks a bunch!


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## IrkedCitizen

Here is a calculator you can use to figure FOC.

http://archeryreport.com/calculators.html


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## John Wayne

*here are the new Abowyer heads.*








here is all 4 together. you can see that they are much larger. on the left is the Brown bear head total weight is 250g. next is the 125g silverflame XL used with an 100g insert. next is the whitetail head. it is 1.5" wide and 2.75" long. much larger then the silverflame XL with the same 1.5" wide . last on the right is the plain 125g silverflame head.


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## Rockyhud

John, those Abowyer heads are quite impressive. I hadn't quite pictured the Whitetail head as being so large as it is. The Brown Bear is strikingly similar in all regards to the Grizzly El Grande heads I bought, with the notable exception that it also has the cutting edges on the trailing edges. Very nice looking products. Thanks for posting.

For BowTechCDR and others, in case you don't want to go through the process of manually figuring FOC here's a pretty decent online FOC calculator. Scroll to the bottom to "Custom Arrow Weight & FOC Simulator". Enter the required data and click "Calculate FOC".

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_4.htm

I also have an update on the Bi-Delta vanes. I fletched more and shot them today - windy again like yesterday - starting with field points again. They behaved the same as yesterday so that was good confirmation of yesterday's observations. I next screwed on my 100 gr Magnus Stingers and shot them along with my Maxima shafts fletched with Fusion vanes and tipped with Stingers. It was nice to see they still flew at least as good as the Fusion vaned shafts and seemed to still not be affected much by winds and cross winds. I also weighed the Bi-Delta and Fusion vaned arrows again, just to confirm the weight difference. The Fusion vanes shafts weighed 462-463 grains while the Bi-Delta vaned shafts weighed 453-454 grains - about 10 grains difference overall. So, I believe I have found a good, fairly light weight vane for my Maxima 350s. I hope to put these to the test this coming weekend and next week by getting to use them to get me a whitetail.

While I was at it I decided to do some preliminary checks to get an impression of whether or not the 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes would work with my Gold Tip BG 100s and Grizzly heads. The guy I bought them from said this could be somewhat ascertained by comparing the width of the broadhead with the fletched overall width (total side to side width) of the shaft and if the broadhead is not as wide as the vanes then they most likely should work. I did this using the Bi-Delta fletched Maxima shafts for comparison and found the Grizzly heads are slightly wider than the fletched shaft, giving me the impression these may not be large enough (tall enough) to work with these broadheads. The Fusion vanes currently on the Gold Tips perform very well so I'll probably just leave these on. Since these are my designated BIG game arrows and won't be used to hunt with for several months I might try the 4" Sharkstooth vanes later since they are taller and longer. The downside is they're also heavier than the 2.1" Fusion. Ah, decisions, decisions.


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## Aggieland

Hey Rockyhud, Just thought I would let ya know the Abowyer heads I bought were the Grizzly heads but didnot have to be glued onto threads they came with them but weighed 260 grains.. Also When I setup my 20% foc arrows with my XBOW Tricks I had three tiny little blazer shield cut X vanes on my shafts and the pro shops hooter shooter was shooting same hole groups with my field tips.. So I believe the small vanes I had would have worked but I changed to feathers and later noticed that the problem I had with my broadhead arrows flying low was the string loop being to short and when i ancored with my chocolate addiction release it twisted the loop causing my arrow to move on the rest.. So those short vanes may work just fine, dont be affraid to give them a try!.. later


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## John Wayne

Rockyhud, yes they are a bit larger then other heads i have shot in the past. i am hoping the weather clears up today when i get off so i can shot them some. But i will have to hide them from the guys at deer camp so that they will not make fun of them.  they are big, but i plan on trying them out and seeing how they do. i am counting on using them for deer and pigs around here and using the brown bear for elk for my trips to CO. 

i have been using the silverflame XL since they came out and have really liked them. the whitetails are the same width but have a better blade angle on them from the add lenght. i am thinking that they will be good. he only issue may come from the large area to plain due to there size. but i have been able to get larger heads to shot just fine in the past. when i spin test them i still have a small wabble to them that i can not get to go away. it may be that the point is not complete square. we will see when i shot them. hope to have more for yall tonight.


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## Aggieland

John Wayne.. I believe I live less than an hour from you. Ever been to Hughes Springs, Tx?


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## John Wayne

i have never been to Hughes Spring, but i have been through Linden and Avinger a lot headed to Branwell offroad park. 

Do you shoot any 3D? did you shoot any of the Rinehart 100 when they were in Tyler. were were there the last 2 years they had it. 08 and 09. this year was in Dallas for this area.


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## Rockyhud

Thanks for the advice Aggie. I still have a few 2.5" vanes left and may try some on my Gold Tips with Grizzly heads after I get done with my whitetail hunt. I think they'd probably shoot OK with field points - I'm just concerned they might not be quite enough for the Grizzly heads. Worth a try though.


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## Aggieland

John Wayne said:


> i have never been to Hughes Spring, but i have been through Linden and Avinger a lot headed to Branwell offroad park.
> 
> Do you shoot any 3D? did you shoot any of the Rinehart 100 when they were in Tyler. were were there the last 2 years they had it. 08 and 09. this year was in Dallas for this area.


Yeah, I shot the Rinehart the past two years as well. I worked in Linden at the hospital for a year or so but moved on to a better job now.. I live about 15 miles from linden 10 as the crow flys.. I dont shoot a lot of 3d but I do enjoy it..


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## IrkedCitizen

Aggie you should try out the Quest Thumper HD at .257 spine with the 315gr Ashby head. With the shaft cut to 25.5" it would weigh 236gr, the PDP inserts weigh 26.2-26.4gr, add-on weight adapter come in 10gr or 20gr, add-on weights in 5/10/30/50gr and are stackable, and use either Bohning A 7gr or Easton X 9 gr nocks. Then whatever fletching you want. You could get to 660gr have a greater FOC then you currently have and still be able to shoot your 80lbs.


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## John Wayne

Irked, I have 3 of the thumpers HD on the way. 

After talking to them. i was told that with a 250g head and some inserts weight i would be right around 600g total weight. i asked about howm much weight i could but on the front. i spoke with Chad. He told me that if could but 300g head on there and not have a problem. also Chad stated that he had talked to Dr. Ashby and under stood what we were tring to get to. He is shooting the .300 spine arrow with 190g head and some weight on the inserts. i think that they shipped yesterday and i hope to get them soon. 


i was able to ship the new Abowyer heads some last night. i may have too much weight on the front of the .300 FMJ. the flight seemed good but they were hitting about 3" right at 25yards. also with the rain and he wet targets i could not keep the feathers dry. and wet feathers do not do much that that big head on the front. there was a few time i was glad that i had a 4' wide target. 

i then tried a few shots with the .340 FMJ that i had with blazers on them. knowing that they would be under spined. but they to hit only about 3" right at 25yards. maye be exter weight to the back will help with the spin. i have fletched a few of the .300 FMJ with the blazers and hope to shot them soon to see what that setup flys. We will see. also waiting on teh Thumper HD to get here cut to 27" will start out with the 250g head but i have different weight adapters and will try some heaver ones as well.


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## Aggieland

Well you have my attention now. I do believe I'm going to use my FMJ's for my closer shots probably 30-40 yds or less. But now I'm considering using some of these lighter shafts and making me some high FOC shafts that weigh less for my longer range shots and use on deer size game. I have a hogg father sight 3 pin so I could use the first 2 pins for the 660 grain 25% arrows and then have some 19% 450 grain arrows for my whitetail and longe range mule deer arrows out west. Hmm carry two different arrows in my quiver, short and long range. What do ya think? QUOTE=IrkedCitizen;1059203534]Aggie you should try out the Quest Thumper HD at .257 spine with the 315gr Ashby head. With the shaft cut to 25.5" it would weigh 236gr, the PDP inserts weigh 26.2-26.4gr, add-on weight adapter come in 10gr or 20gr, add-on weights in 5/10/30/50gr and are stackable, and use either Bohning A 7gr or Easton X 9 gr nocks. Then whatever fletching you want. You could get to 660gr have a greater FOC then you currently have and still be able to shoot your 80lbs.[/QUOTE]


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## Aggieland

Has anyone seen these Quest shafts? I went to their website and its not very imformative. Cant find any info on what length the spine of the arrows was tested at or what Dia the arrows were. Anyway not saying they are not quality shafts just dont want to order something and then regret it. I bought some other taperered shafts and they were supposed to be plenty stiff to handle what I was wanting to do. But they were way to weak to handle even the 175 grain heads with a light weight incert and cut to 25.5 inches.. Anyway just wanted to ask.. On a side note I believe im going to go back down to 70 pounds of draw weight, not hitting the gym anymore etc the 80 has become a lot less fun to shoot.. later


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## IrkedCitizen

You can give them a call. 1-800-460-8833 

I do not know at what span they measured the spine but most manufacturers measure it at 28".


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## IrkedCitizen

Aggieland said:


> Well you have my attention now. I do believe I'm going to use my FMJ's for my closer shots probably 30-40 yds or less. But now I'm considering using some of these lighter shafts and making me some high FOC shafts that weigh less for my longer range shots and use on deer size game. I have a hogg father sight 3 pin so I could use the first 2 pins for the 660 grain 25% arrows and then have some 19% 450 grain arrows for my whitetail and longe range mule deer arrows out west. Hmm carry two different arrows in my quiver, short and long range. What do ya think?
> 
> 
> IrkedCitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aggie you should try out the Quest Thumper HD at .257 spine with the 315gr Ashby head. With the shaft cut to 25.5" it would weigh 236gr, the PDP inserts weigh 26.2-26.4gr, add-on weight adapter come in 10gr or 20gr, add-on weights in 5/10/30/50gr and are stackable, and use either Bohning A 7gr or Easton X 9 gr nocks. Then whatever fletching you want. You could get to 660gr have a greater FOC then you currently have and still be able to shoot your 80lbs.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't see this directed toward me as the quote didn't work.

If that is what you want to do then I don't see a problem with it. I am going to use these thumper gold arrows for mule deer, elk, pronghorn antelope, and turkey. I won't be using two different weighted arrows just the one. These new arrows will weigh roughly the same as my old FMJ's but have 50-100% greater FOC depending on where I decide to stop with the add-on weights..


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## IrkedCitizen

So I just got my Thumper golds in the mail. The person who cut the arrows and fletched them glued in the insert. I don't have the weights from PDP yet so I don't know if I can fit them in through the nock end. :\ They also used excessive glue on the vanes so the end of the arrows do look a bit messy. 

The insert is 11/32" and the nock end of the shaft is roughly .244". My micrometer isn't very good. So they taper down roughly a tenth of an inch from front to back.

The arrows do look good upon inspection though. I don't have my bow back yet so I cannot shoot them. I cannot get a weight in through the nock end I can just throw a tip on it and shoot them anyway. They will probably be way overspined but we'll see.


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## EagleI79

baldyhunter said:


> My personal experience tells me high FOC is over-rated unless your hunting something very large. I played with tips between 85 and 125 grains last year and different spine arrows to match. I ended up with 85 grain Mugnus Stingers on GT 340 spined arrows with an FOC of around 9%. I'm no expert but have tuned alot of bows and I'm very, very picky as far as tuning goes. These shot exactly with FP and same group sizes at 60 yards and produced over 70 lbs Kinetic energy shooting over 300 fps. Way more than enough for Whitetails and speed as a bonus. Pass through (easily) on all three deer I've killed this year. I experiment every year so this year I'll try even more extreme FOC and I may learn something. But I have never had hunting arrows fly so well as this year at a sub10% FOC.


No, you didn't play enough. 85 -125 isn't going to tell you anything really. Put a 150-200 grain head on there and see what happens.


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## John Wayne

Well where to start......

left work early today and skiped school tonight to play with this some more as i have off tomorrow and am headed to the woods. so after a few hours of playing around here is what i have found. 

Started with the 250g Abowyer whitetail head on a .300 FMJ with the regular inserts. hit about 3" right every time. with feather or blaazers and that gap got bigger at 35 and 40yards Frustrated. 


so thinking that i had too much head meaning too wide. i put the brown bear head on there. it is about .5" narrower and has a lot less wind planing abilty. first shot it hit right in the dot and stayed in the dot at 25y as much i could. so i was a little sad. thinking i could not shoot the wide whitetails. 

so just for fun i think i will shoot the other arrows that i have made up to use a lighter head with. .300 FMJ with 100g inserts and 3" feathers. (these fly great with the 125G silverflame XL) so i screw on the 250g whitetail and let her fly. the left and right is great just a few inches low. which i was expecting seeing i just added 100g to the arrow. now that put a smile on my face. it also lifted my spirits a lot. now there is hope that i can get the wide heads to fly. so i spend the rest of the evening shooting the combo and find that i can just use one pin more then the distance i'm at and we are right on the money. so 35pin for 25yards, 45pin for 35yards. i am not sure why this stoped the arrows from hitting right but it did. 

so here is the arrow head combo that i will be shooting tomorrow and saturday. 27" long FMJ .300 with a 100g insert with the 250g Abowyer whitetail. and out back is 3" fathers with a small wrap. (had trouble geting the feathers to stay with out it.) total weight is 700g even. that should put me in the 250fps range and 25%FOC and also the brown bear head weighting in at 250g, all this out of the PSE Dreamseason 80#speed is just off the internet caluators where you put in the IBO, DL, DW, and Arrow weight. 


i do have the thumper HD on the way (should be here tomorrow.) but i will probably be keeping this set up. now if the thumper are good i may just keep 2 set ups. i also have a 80# GTO that i could set up with the lighter arrows and then i would have 2 setups that would work out of both bows. 

now all i need is a deer or pig to stand real still and let me shot him. not sure if i'm passing anything tomorrow i want to see bad how this works, then we can see if if we are cooking with gasoline yet. 

i think that i have about drove my wife nuts talking and thinking out loud and looking and sreaching and looking some more. but i think that i may have found the light at the end of the tunnel. i hope that my rambling have helped some one out. or at least shortend there hunt of high FOC. 

i promise pics when and if i can get some meat on the ground. Lord willing it want be long.


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## Aggieland

Your shoting those heavy incerts and heads on those FMJ's at 80#'s ? You got balls bro. lol.. I didn't know if they would handle those 260 grain abowyers but sounds like your making it fine using them. There are so many choices involved with all this that it starts to get mind bottling. Honestly for deer size game I think if you get your FOC high you dont need the super 650+ grain arrows but for those big boars you do for sure. Im still wondering what I will decide next, right now my 4" feathers are starting to come loose from my FMJ shafts, ( I didnot use wraps) so im looking at going back to plastics. Maybe the BI-Delta vanes if they are not to heavy and kill all my FOC.. All I know is I keep buying stuff and then wanting to buy and try more.. ahhhh


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## IrkedCitizen

So my my field points and weights came from PDP today. The weights are too thick to fit in from the nock end of the arrow.

I decided to throw on a 100gr tip and a 125gr tip and calculated current FOC. Unless my numbers are wrong which I don't think they are these are the FOC percentages.

100gr tip = 14.82617586912065%
125gr tip = 17.280163599182007%

Arrows measure 30 - 9/16" from nock groove to front of insert. With the 100gr tips the balance point was 19.8125" from nock groove. With the 125gr tip the balance point was 20.5625" from nock groove.

If those numbers are correct I could have just got the .300 spine arrows and just thrown a regular tip on and called it good. But with them being .275 spine I am probably going to be overspined.

Also to add the arrows are 3 fletched with 2.0" Vanetec HP vanes and have Bohning A nocks.


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## shilo

I've found that high FOC ,18%, arrows are more forgiving, fly better in wind, and penetrate like crazy.


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## John Wayne

Here we go. got off of work on Friday to do some hunting. 

i came home with a pig and a smallish 7point. here is what happened on those shots. 

7point is first. 

i hit him high through the spine and a rib going and coming. also cliped the shoulder blade but only about half of a blade so not much. This was with the 1.5" wide whitetail, deer was at about 18yards. arrow pinitrated through all that and stopped at about 4" with fletching sticking out. After the spine shot i needed to put one more into him. for this one i used the same arrow but with a 125g silverflame XL. This shot was straight down cause he was laying down. Arrow entered the spine and cut it clean into, cleared the spine and entered the chest area throught the lung, took out a rib and then broke the off side leg but completly shatering it. and then came out the skin about 2". 
over all i was well pleased with both of these arrow set ups. the first one is a 700g total weight with 25% foc and the second was a 585g arrow with 19% foc. both of these had not problem with the heavy bone that was incountered. 

next is the pig, it was a good size one at about 80lbs. not a big one by any means. 

he was broadside at about 15yards. shot placements was better as it was right throught the lungs. 
took out 2 ribs on the way in and one on the way out. he only went about 40yards. good blood trail. arrow was the same as the first arrow used on the 7point. 700g arrow with the 1.5" wide whitetail head on it. pinitration was full and buried in to the ground. 

This was a rough day on my arrows. broke one on the buck and the pig bent the other one as he ran off while pined to the ground. 

i still have to do some fin tuning of this heavy setup to get the pined sighted in. This will be my set up for deer and pigs. i may change the head out when i head out west for elk. 

on a siude note i would have hand an update on the brown bear head also but i missed a doe high. so i will add that when it happens.


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## Aggieland

Excellent review man. Sounds like you had some serious power on both shots.. I shot a 100 lbs boar the other night, it was pitch black and could not see my pins but managed to shoot him through the neck with my 175 grain xbow tricks and 20% foc. Arrow went clean through and like you stuck in the ground. I dont see myself going back to lightweight arrows anytime soon. and deff wont go away from high foc..


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## SouthShoreRat

I havent read every post in this thread but wanted to caution each of you to make sure you run your numbers in an arrow program. 

Example 

If you currently shoot a 340 with 100 grain and it is matched to the bow you may need to move up to a 300 spine if you add weight to the front of the arrow. Some of the more aggressive bows and people shooting 80# bows will want to pay extra attention when adding weight up front. Currently I have a 65# bow that will shoot a 340 shaft arrow with 100 grain point. Adding 50 grains to the front moves me into a 300 spine arrow. Really aggressive bows like the Monster upwards of 74 to 80# may need to look at a 250 spine if much weight is added to the front. 

Just because you can get a bow shooting an arrows doesnt mean its always safe. Todays high end bows are very efficient and extremely well made, the tolerances are very tight so tuning can sometimes be misleading. Arrow programs such as OT2 take a scientific approach to calculating arrow spine. If you rely on arrow programs to verify spine you will always be shooting a safe and correct spine.


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## Glenn-bob

SouthShoreRat said:


> I havent read every post in this thread but wanted to caution each of you to make sure you run your numbers in an arrow program.
> 
> Example
> 
> If you currently shoot a 340 with 100 grain and it is matched to the bow you may need to move up to a 300 spine if you add weight to the front of the arrow. Some of the more aggressive bows and people shooting 80# bows will want to pay extra attention when adding weight up front. Currently I have a 65# bow that will shoot a 340 shaft arrow with 100 grain point. Adding 50 grains to the front moves me into a 300 spine arrow. Really aggressive bows like the Monster upwards of 74 to 80# may need to look at a 250 spine if much weight is added to the front.
> 
> Just because you can get a bow shooting an arrows doesnt mean its always safe. Todays high end bows are very efficient and extremely well made, the tolerances are very tight so tuning can sometimes be misleading. Arrow programs such as OT2 take a scientific approach to calculating arrow spine. If you rely on arrow programs to verify spine you will always be shooting a safe and correct spine.


Good advice Rat...I shoot a 70# Destroyer, 28 1/2" D/L, and through contacts with Easton and the help of a few A/T er's who have calculators. I decided on a 27" Easton Axis 300 with a 50 grn. brass insert and a 125 grn. B/H...Blazer vanes... The arrow tuned perfectly and is very accurate. Although I haven't had the opportunity to test it on dense tissue (it has zipped through mostly soft tissue like it wasn't there) I'm thinking it'll do just fine judging by the penetration in target medium and the energy left over after penetrating deer...
In any event, I think the main focus should be on safety and the integrity of the arrow shaft...Hate to see another picture of a guy with an arrow shaft protruding from his wrist!


----------



## John Wayne

On a side note. i have the Thumper HD in now. they are .250 spine. 

they are light and stiff. 27" shaft and with 250g head on there. total weight was around 550g. They shot good but do hit a few inches to right with the larger heads. 

i still have to play with them a little bit more because with a head that big it does not take much to not let it shoot straight. with the smaller borwn bear head it shoot just still hits to the right. so not sure of the cause of that. still have some playing to do. 

my plan for now is to try to get the .300 FMJ to with the plain insert and the whitetail head to fly stright. some of that could be the head does not spin 100% true, it is close and i used a 2 part epoxy on it. so not sure if i can get it out or not. but i did use some hot melt glue and i could get a different head to spin 100% true. if i can get the large whitetail to shot with the smaller brown bears then i that is the set up i will be using. i think that 600g total will do just fine on the smaller deer around south Arkansas. This will give me around 20% foc and i think i can be happy with that. 

like aggi said there are som many options out there that is is unreal what you can put together and come up with. 

any suggerstion on how to get that adapter out of the head when i used a 2 part epoxy? the adapter is a 43g alumin one. if i can get it out i will just have to use it as a practice head if it can ge the others to glue in straight. this wwas my first attempt at glueing in adaptors. Live and learn i hope. 

i do think (worry) that the 350g (250g head plus 100g insert) may be too much over time if i shot them a lot or they are used to shot throught an animal and get damage but i do not see it, but that could be the case with any arrow. but i do feel that with the alumin on the out side that they withstand a little more then just a full carbon arrow. that i why i like them so much.


----------



## Aggieland

John, sounds like you are getting things put together well! I'm auctually trying to find a dealer so I can get a few of those Quest shafts and give them a try. I Want to make a shaft that weighs less than what the current FMJ's do but also keep my FOC as high as possible. considering the Gold size shafts 8.75gpi. and then using a head that weighs in the 175-200g range. Not sure what foc I could get but I do believe this would be my best setup for deer size game expecially at longer ranges. Those shafts with incert, fletching, nock and a 175 grain head would weigh around the 460 grain mark and would probably have some pretty decent FOC.. Might be the ticket for long range mule deer.


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## IrkedCitizen

Like I posted a few posts ago with the thumper gold at 30-9/16" long nock groove/insert with a 125gr tip and no weights the FOC was in the 17% range. You should have high FOC with a 25.5" arrow and a 175gr head.


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## Aggieland

IrkedCitizen said:


> Like I posted a few posts ago with the thumper gold at 30-9/16" long nock groove/insert with a 125gr tip and no weights the FOC was in the 17% range. You should have high FOC with a 25.5" arrow and a 175gr head.


Are you kidding me.. thats crazy.. was that arrow fletched? and did you use Dr. Ashbys formula for calculating FOC? If so thats a really sweet shaft.


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## IrkedCitizen

They were fletched with three 2.0" vanetec HP vanes and a Bohning A nock. 

I don't know if I used Ashby's method or not. I used method 1 from this link. http://archeryreport.com/2010/09/arrow-foc-basics-calculate/

Refresh me on Ashby's method.


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## Aggieland

Try this one..........

(1) Measure shaft length; bottom of the nock’s throat to the
most rearward portion of the broadhead taper.
(2) With tip mounted, determine the balance point by balancing
the arrow on a knife edge. Mark this balance point.
(3) Measure balance point distance; from the bottom of the
knock’s throat to the balance point.
(4) Divide balance point distance by shaft length. This gives
the decimal equivalent of the balance point’s percentage
relative to shaft length.
(5) From this quotient subtract 0.50, the decimal equivalent
of 50%.
(6) Convert the resultant decimal fraction to percent by
multiplying by 100 (or simply moving the decimal point two
places to the right). This gives the percent FOC.
In formula format one has:
Dist. knock throat to Balance Point/ Shaft length
%FOC = ----------------------------------- minus 0.50 X 100


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## IrkedCitizen

That is basically what I used but the measurement was to the end of the insert not the rearmost taper of the tip. I'll go get that measurement. The balance point will still be the same just the length measurement will be different.


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## IrkedCitizen

Okay so the measurement from the nock groove to rearmost taper of the tip is 30-27/32 which is 30.84375". The balance point was 20.5625.

20.5625/30.84375 = .666667
.666667- .5 = .1666667

So 16.6667% FOC with nothing but a 125gr tip.


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## Aggieland

125 or 175g head? Nevermnd I just read above.. great work.. will be a great setup.!


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## IrkedCitizen

I don't have any 175gr tips to try and my inserts came glued in when they weren't supposed to be. The PDP weights will not fit in from the nock end so I cannot experiment. I threw on 100gr tips and 125 tips just to see the difference in FOC from those.

I have 3 more arrows coming that the inserts better not be glued in. Then I can experiment with the 30gr and 50gr weights I have.


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## Aggieland

are those screw in weights the same as the gold tips? I have some of them already.. What did the foc change from when you went from 100-125 grain heads? Oh, and where are you getting these shafts from?


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## IrkedCitizen

I had to go get the measurement. 30.75 to rearmost taper of tip. 19.8125" balance.

19.8125/30.75= .6443089431
.6443089431 - .5= .1443089431

14.43% FOC with 100gr tip.

16.666667- 14.43089431 = 2.23577269% increase adding 25 more grains.


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## Glenn-bob

John Wayne said:


> On a side note. i have the Thumper HD in now. they are .250 spine.
> 
> they are light and stiff. 27" shaft and with 250g head on there. total weight was around 550g. They shot good but do hit a few inches to right with the larger heads.
> 
> i still have to play with them a little bit more because with a head that big it does not take much to not let it shoot straight. with the smaller borwn bear head it shoot just still hits to the right. so not sure of the cause of that. still have some playing to do.
> 
> my plan for now is to try to get the .300 FMJ to with the plain insert and the whitetail head to fly stright. some of that could be the head does not spin 100% true, it is close and i used a 2 part epoxy on it. so not sure if i can get it out or not. but i did use some hot melt glue and i could get a different head to spin 100% true. if i can get the large whitetail to shot with the smaller brown bears then i that is the set up i will be using. i think that 600g total will do just fine on the smaller deer around south Arkansas. This will give me around 20% foc and i think i can be happy with that.
> 
> like aggi said there are som many options out there that is is unreal what you can put together and come up with.
> 
> any suggerstion on how to get that adapter out of the head when i used a 2 part epoxy? the adapter is a 43g alumin one. if i can get it out i will just have to use it as a practice head if it can ge the others to glue in straight. this wwas my first attempt at glueing in adaptors. Live and learn i hope.
> 
> i do think (worry) that the 350g (250g head plus 100g insert) may be too much over time if i shot them a lot or they are used to shot throught an animal and get damage but i do not see it, but that could be the case with any arrow. but i do feel that with the alumin on the out side that they withstand a little more then just a full carbon arrow. that i why i like them so much.


Hey John...You can try slowly heating a field tip (installed in arrow) until the insert lets go...Sometimes it works, sometimes it damages the arrow...It's worth a try...Of course, use pliers to hold field point :wink:


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## 5MilesBack

Well, I have 3 different Quest shafts coming to me to try out. The Thumper HD in .257 spine, a Quickstrike in .250 spine, and an original Thumper with wood grain finish that comes in at 11gpi.

I'm going to be doing some experimenting with these to see what I can come up with. I'm quite sure that I can come up with some ridiculous amounts of FOC because of the lighter weight shafts, but I'm not so keen on 20+%.

I am currently experimenting with my TR Crush 300's with a 180gr Silverflame XL on the front. They come in at 553gr with 16% FOC. I'm probably going to stick with this setup just because those shafts are so tough. I'm not real worried about snapping one of them off on a shot.


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## Aggieland

Someone put some detailed pics up of these shafts. and where are you guys getting them?


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## John Wayne

http://www.questproductsusa.com/thumper.html or email Chad [email protected] he was very helpful. there is more info on page 17 that you may have missed. there web site is kinda plain but call and talk to them or e-mail them they are good and customer service. also yo might want the thumper HD as they are a .250 spine. or the 300 spine will if you stay with only about hte 175g head. 

finnished weight of mine are. with 250g head on the thumper HD was 586g with 25% foc
witha 125g silverflame XL they were about 438g and 17% 

look them up they are up your ally if you are looking to get lighter then the FMJ. 
i still fill like the best set up i have come up with is the FMJ .300 with a plain insert and 250g head on front. total weight is about 600g and speed for me is still in the 270ish range. and with this the avery thing few great. only problem i had is the big 1.5" wide whitetail plain some to the right. but i think that had to do with them not spining 100% true. my fault. will get that fixed and see. if they will work. 

Glenn bob. the alumin adapeters are in the broadhead. not an arrow. but i will try that when i have time. i do not care if it damages the adapter as they are about .60 but the head is more and that i do not what to hurt. but i will try heating the adaper and see what happens


----------



## John Wayne

Glen bob. that did work. i just heated the the adapter up and then with plier just gave it a good turn and they came out. took awhile to clean all of the old glue off bu ti got it and reguled them last night and spin tested them this morning and they still spin good. should be completly dry today when i get home. we will seee.


----------



## Donkey Hunter

John Wayne said:


> http://www.questproductsusa.com/thumper.html or email Chad [email protected] he was very helpful. there is more info on page 17 that you may have missed. there web site is kinda plain but call and talk to them or e-mail them they are good and customer service. also yo might want the thumper HD as they are a .250 spine. or the 300 spine will if you stay with only about hte 175g head.
> 
> finnished weight of mine are. with 250g head on the thumper HD was 586g with 25% foc
> witha 125g silverflame XL they were about 438g and 17%
> 
> look them up they are up your ally if you are looking to get lighter then the FMJ.
> i still fill like the best set up i have come up with is the FMJ .300 with a plain insert and 250g head on front. total weight is about 600g and speed for me is still in the 270ish range. and with this the avery thing few great. only problem i had is the big 1.5" wide whitetail plain some to the right. but i think that had to do with them not spining 100% true. my fault. will get that fixed and see. if they will work.
> 
> Glenn bob. the alumin adapeters are in the broadhead. not an arrow. but i will try that when i have time. i do not care if it damages the adapter as they are about .60 but the head is more and that i do not what to hurt. but i will try heating the adaper and see what happens


Do they take standard carbon inserts? I know there are 100 grain brass inserts for standard size arrows...that way you could use almost any 100 grain head that you want for a 100 grain head, that what I have in my Beman MFX, but I wouldn't mind a lighter arrow.


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## John Wayne

i do not know about what size they take, but they do accept the screw in weights. so you could get to 100g insert easy.


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## Glenn-bob

John Wayne said:


> Glen bob. that did work. i just heated the the adapter up and then with plier just gave it a good turn and they came out. took awhile to clean all of the old glue off bu ti got it and reguled them last night and spin tested them this morning and they still spin good. should be completly dry today when i get home. we will seee.


Good, glad that worked!


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## J-Daddy

Has anyone found any 50gr brass inserts that will fit the Victory V-Force shafts? Next year I'm bumping back up to a 70lbs hunting rig and I plan on shooting 300spine V-Force shafts, 4" wrap, either 3 or 4 fletched AAE Max Hunter vanes, and a 100gr head and want to put 50gr brass inserts in them but I'm having a heck of a time finding any for the Victory shafts. I'm pretty sure they are a .245 on the diameter.


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## Rockyhud

Great stuff you guys have been adding lately. I don't know if anyone has been perusing the tradgang site or not but I came across an interesting thread there that has some very relevant info to this one. I came across this while searching for more info on how best to sharpen Grizzly single bevel heads. This has some very good pics and instructions for using 4"-5" weight tubes, 3-1/2" 16D nails and masking tape to add some overall weight, increase FOC and add some footing stiffness/durability to the front of carbon shafts.

http://tradgang.com/rob/foc/

Here's a summary of what the starting point was and the results he ended up with.

1) Started with a 29.25" Beman ICS 500 carbon shaft, with 100 grain brass point ferrule, 4" banana 4-fletch and a Bohning nock, with NO weight tube added. Weight measured was 332 grains.
2) Same shaft with added weight tube section and fitted nail inside - weight increased to 492 grains.
3) Added Wentzel Woodsman 3-blade head and aluminum adapter - weight of this combo = 174 grains. Total arrow weight now 667 grains.
4) Final results - we've got a footed heavy arrow with high 30.16% FOC. 29.25" weight tube footed arrows fly like darts out of a 55# holding weight longbow, with no wobble or other erratic flight, and although the arrow spine is slightly lessened, there is no 'tail left' when shooting into target butts.

I might try this with my Gold Tip BG-100/Grizzly setup to get their weight up closer to (or slightly beyond) the bone-busting 650 grain threshold while maintaining or increasing FOC and front end strength. This could be interesting.


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## Aggieland

Anyone else had a chance to see and try out the Quest shafts? I would like to see some pics of them up close before I order any.. Thanks


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## John Wayne

Aggie, i will take a few of them and post them tomorrow.


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## IrkedCitizen

I would but I have no idea where my camera is.


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## John Wayne

More up dates from Arkansas, 

Saturday morning I hunted on some of my own land for the first time. and what do you know. i had ol' big body walk out. 

i will have to say this deer has to be the biggest deer that i have killed in a while and deffently with my bow. 
this time i was using the Brown bear that weighted in at 250g with the FMJ .300. total arrow weight is 615g on this arrow. 

this buck came in and finaly offered an hard quartering away shot. arrow entered in just behind the last rib and exited through the off side shoulder right up next to the leg bone. based on luck or happen stance i did not hit a single bone as the arrow passed through. deer ran about 50y and then stoped and fell dead. 

The blood trail with this "small" head was great. i have alwayed perfered larger heads for there better blood trails. but what i have learned is that when hit in the right place almost every head will leave a good trail. but these heads did a great job and i will be adding the screw-on heads soon. as i do not like having to glue them on.

he was only a 5 point. one little bity eye guard but i was proud to add him to my "Wall"

he is defintly an older deer and i will try to age him tomorrow based off of the pictures that i can find of the jaw bone. i'm about to run out of deer tags for the year but i still have one doe left and then it will be pigs. so far very happy with both set ups.


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## IrkedCitizen

Congrats on the deer.


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## John Wayne

Thanks.


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## mikajay

What kind of outsidediameter these Thumpers have.If theyre tapered, Im interested how fat they are in the point end area?

thanks, r.mika


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## Rockyhud

Yes sirree, congrats on the buck. Sounds like your arrow setup performed very well. It would have been interesting if it had encountered bone on the way through so we could all get more insight from real life results with heavy arrows and single bevel heads' performance on bone busting capability. The fact it didn't doesn't take anything away from your accomplishment. Enjoy your rewards.


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## John Wayne

Rockyhud, thanks, i will very happy to take him. i did get into a lot of bone on the last buck i took last week and that gave me lots of real life insite. and i do wish that i had hit some bone on this one just to see how this head would have preformed. but there will be other days and deer. i am very happy with the blood trail i got with this head. even with the hole in the shoulder there was still a lot blood on the ground.


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## Rockyhud

I finally got a chance to fletch a couple of Gold Tip BG 100s with 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes and compare them with the same shafts with 2" Fusion vanes, the type I originally installed. Since my main interest was to see how they performed with Grizzly heads I decided to forgo shooting sessions with field points and shot with my broadheads. Long story short and to my delight, they worked fabulously. I started shooting from 20 yards and gradually moved back to 50 yards. The Sharkstooth vaned arrows literally shot like darts - even more so than the Fusion vaned shafts. They appeared to have little to no perceivable fishtailing or porpoising - just flying downrange straight away from the bow. Also, the shooting session started out with a very light breeze that increased to windy conditions by the time I moved back to 40 and 50 yards. Like I observed when shooting these vanes on my Maxima 350s I was impressed by the lack of influence cross winds had on these vanes on these heavier shafts, upping my confidence in being able to take shots on game at these ranges even in less than ideal wind conditions.

I also weighed the finished arrows and found the same reduction of about 8+/- grains compared to Fusions, thereby improving FOC while maintaining at least as good, if not better, steering and stabilization. Just to satisfy my curiosity to see how these stick onto shafts I also shot them directly into the hay bales I set my targets on. Other than getting temporarily discolored by passing into and through the bales there was no evidence of coming loose or causing any change in their shape. One vane got bent over pretty far as it entered the bale but it came right back to original shape immediately after pulling it out. I've ordered more vanes so I can install Sharkstooth vanes on all my Gold Tip shafts. If anyone is interested in trying these I recommend contacting Sean, here on AT (who goes by Crusher), for a good price and good advice on using them.


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## John Wayne

Thanks for the write up on them. i may have to try them out. i love the feathers but have a little bit of a consern about the durabilty of them.


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## IrkedCitizen

I finally got the opportunity to try out these thumper gold shafts on Saturday at a freeze-out 3d shoot. These are the 16.67% FOC arrows with 125gr tips, 26.4gr insert, 3 Vanetec 2.0" vanes, and Bohning A nock for roughly 440gr total arrow weight at 30.5" length. The bow I was shooting at the 3d shoot was my buddies Son's Bear Lights Out 30"/~70#. My Hoyt Maxxis 35 got damaged by UPS during return shipping from getting new string/cables and a tune job. So I wasn't able to shoot it.

Throughout the day I put them through their paces. Right off the bat on the first target (Javelina) I misjudged the distance and shot right under it. First thing out of my mouth was "well there goes one arrow". After the rest of the group finished shooting we went to retrieve the arrows. To my surprise the arrow shaft wasn't busted like I feared, however, the bohning A nock broke just past the groove. So I moved that arrow to the back spot on my quiver and started shooting with one of the other thumpers. This arrow saw a lot of abuse, two tree trunks, dirt/gravel a couple times, and when I did my job a few targets. The arrow ended up mushrooming/splintering the tip on like the 15th target. This was after I botched a shot on the previous target (crept forward right before/as I released). When I pulled the arrow from the target the insert and tip stayed in but it only went in about 3/4" so I was able to pull them out. The Bohning A nock also broke on this shot as well. So I shot the last 5 targets with the only good arrow I had left. Then I went back to the Jeep and grabbed the X nocks out of my FMJ's so I would have at least 2 arrows for the second round. I finished the first round with a terrible 86 out of a possible 220. Lol.

The second round started off the same as the first. Missed the damn Javelina right underneath it's belly. I was still shooting the arrow that I finished the first round with. It survived the impact with the ground and the A nock didn't break. I missed two more targets throughout the second round with the same arrow and it survived as did the A nock. My scored increased slightly to 110 out of a possible 220. 

I finished the day with 196 out of 440. Not very good but I thought I did well considering I had very little practice (Friday afternoon/Saturday morning) with the 30" ATA bow set at 30" draw when I am a 31" draw and my Maxxis was 35" ATA.

I am really impressed with the quality and strength of these Quest Products USA Thumper shafts. I thought they held up really well for the amount of punishment I gave them. I don't think my FMJ's would have held up as well. My only gripe is about the Bohning A nocks that they come with breaking right past the groove. So I would recommend right of the bat replacing them with Easton X nocks and dealing with the extra 2gr.

Hope that helps some people considering purchasing these shafts.


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## luftmech

Has anyone heard of or tried the DarkHorse arrows ? I saw a couple post's but have not heard any feedback. They have a weight forward design. I was thinking of trying out some with SF XL 180's at 28.5" on my Maxxis 31.


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## Rockyhud

I don't know if everyone is aware or not but Gold Tip has updated their website and has a new page with calculators for kinetic energy, arrow weight and FOC. It allows the user to input all values instead of having a drop down box with preselected values which should make it more usable and provide more accurate data. Here's the URL for you. I found this while checking out a rumor from another AT thread indicating Gold Tip is coming out with heavier, thick walled, small diameter shafts called Kinetic early in 2011 with spines from 500 to 200.

http://www.goldtip.com/calculators.aspx


----------



## bbjavelina

I'm curious if any of you have tried the "stealth arrow" concept with EFOC. It's from an old thread on another site, but I recently ran across it and really am tempted to give it a try. After all, Dr. Ed ain't usually wrong!

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=1;t=057257


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## John Wayne

Pig down. Thursday morning I was out sliping through the woods and looking for a pig. i was able to slip to with in about 52 yards of tha small group of 4 pigs. they were all about the same size at around 80 to 100lbs. i was using the 19% FOC arrows this day. .300 FMJ with a 100g brass insert and 125g silverflame XL head with 5" feather and a wrap. as stated this set up weighted in at 629g and had an foc of about 19%. out of my 80# dreamseason. my shot was just a little bit forward and hit the main leg bone. arrow cut clean through the full leg bone and the entered the chest cavity cuting at least one rib going in and one going out. the arrow stoped with only the fletching still in the pig. and fell out at he truned to run. to say the least i was amazed at the amount of penatration i got at 52 yards with a direct hit to a large leg bone. i will post pictures when i get to cuting up the meat and grinding it. but the bone looked like it was cut into with a saw not busted like i have seen before. 

so this will be about the end of my season. with 3 deer and 5 pigs in the freezer it is the wifes turn to hang some meat. but before this year i had hunted with a 500g arrow with about 10-12% foc. this year i have taken aminals with 19% and 25%. for deer size animals as i was hunting i think both worked great. i could not tell the difference of greater penatration of either set up. most animals were take with a 1.5" wide head. most with the silverflame XL. one deer was taken with the 1.5" abowyer and also one deer was taken with then 1 1/8" abowyer. The one deer was shot twice and is the only one that did not get full penatration. bot arrows were a direct hit to the spine and cut a huge amount of bone. but based on what i saw the silverflame xl head cut the spine and the front leg bone and then stop with the arrow sticking out the front. please see post on page 18 about this deer. 

my over all impression is that other then when i switched to the FMJ arrow for the small dim. increasing my FOC has made an huge increase in the penatration i have gotten. will post pictures when i can.


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## Whitey375

Well, it looks like I have missed a bit. At least someone got to kill something with these arrows this year. I only drew back on one group of deer and let down because it was all does and a spork. Never got to go to eastern Oregon for elk. I still have two weeks to find a bear though. Those Thumpers look like an interesting arrow to play with. What do they cost?


----------



## wyetterp

Anybody know if you can use the 5/16, 43gr VAP penetrator inserts in other micro diameter shafts like the trophy ridge crush or axis? 

These things are looking good IMO.


----------



## J-Daddy

wyetterp said:


> Anybody know if you can use the 5/16, 43gr VAP penetrator inserts in other micro diameter shafts like the trophy ridge crush or axis?
> 
> These things are looking good IMO.


The Victory VAP is a lot smaller than Axis arrows so I doubt you would get them to work.


----------



## white.greg

J-Daddy said:


> The Victory VAP is a lot smaller than Axis arrows so I doubt you would get them to work.


I like the looks of the Victory VAP arrows, they may not be considered "Extreme" FOC, but would be pretty high. The question I have is how to best fletch these arrows. They are very thin, can you get any helical in the vanes? Maybe a slight offset, what do you guys think?


----------



## wyetterp

J-Daddy said:


> The Victory VAP is a lot smaller than Axis arrows so I doubt you would get them to work.


Thanks. Had to do some digging in the archives.......Inside diameter of TR Crush 300's = .201 at the nock end
Vap's = .166

Oh well. Wish the VAP's where heavier.


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## John Wayne

i was reading the DIY section and found a post about using an alumin arrow and sliding it over the arrow. now they were using it to help keep the tip of FMJ from mushrooming and i did add that to mine as i have had a few mushroom over the years from hitting hard stuff. But it got me to think that, what if i added about a 8" pc to the front? i would have to adjust the rest down a some to acount for the larger shaft up front, but other then that it would stiffing up the arrow a lot and add weight too. i may have to try this on a few and see what happens. What do yall think of this or i'm i getting into messing with this too much?


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## Whitey375

That seems like what guys used to do for going to Africa when they wanted to boost their arrow weight. I don't know what sizes they would use exactly, but they would use some sort of epoxy to cement it. As far as adjusting your rest, I don't think you would be adding enough diameter to matter.


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## John Wayne

well i have some gamegetters in 2018 that fit perfect. with a 1/2" long pc they weight about 9g. i will have to try a 8" or 9" pc on one and see if it add any stiffness to the arrow. will keep yall updated on what i find out.


----------



## Rockyhud

I seem to recall reading some tradgang.com threads about adding aluminum shafting to carbon shafts for external footing to increase FOC and add strength to the front to prevent mushrooming or snapping off the front end where the insert resides. I don't seem to have any of these bookmarked but I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to search their site for info. As I recall some folks there did this on Easton small diameter shafts as some had issues with the front ends breaking in front or just behind the HIT. Adding external footing was reported to have made substantial improvements in the shaft strength in this area as well as increasing FOC - a win/win effort.


----------



## John Wayne

i read that one, and the one on making them just 1" long to stiffen the end. 

i will be trying this in the near future to see what happens. i also have some .250 FMJ DG coming to see what i can get out of them. 

i am thinking that i could use about a 6-9"pc and see. my arrow are about 1" past the rest. so there should be plenty of arrow and the rest should have droped by the time the fat part of the shaft stops and it goes back to being small again. hope that makes sense. 

I see where this would make the tip stronger. will it also effect the spine. i like the .300FMJ great but i think that i need an .250 for what i am tring to do but do not want to shot the DG .250 for the weight. but i might. i think total finished is 860g. which is about 100g over what i was trying for. but we will see when the DG get here. With hunting season over and some time to play i will have more time to expermint with this stuff.


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## typical2

Out of my 70/30 Monster 6.0 I'm shooting a 520 grain Gold Tip Big Game arrow (.280 spine) with 180 grain Steelforce broadhead or 125 grain broadhead and 50 grain insert weight. Shooting ~300 fps

It's tough to get much FOC and be properly spined with this bow unless you go with a Easton Full Metal Jacket DG (.250 spine) or the Grizzly Sticks. These arrows end up heavier than I want.


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## IrkedCitizen

GoldTip's new "Kinetic" arrow comes in a .200 spine and weigh 11.6gpi, O.D. .288", I.D. .204", The insert weighs 24.8gr and the nock weighs 11.6gr. These might be an option for some of you. You'll have a heavy arrow but it won't weigh as much as a .250 DG FMJ. Thus making it easier to achieve a higher FOC % than with the .250 DG.

This will create a heavier arrow than I want to shoot. So I want to try the .300 Kinetic at 10.5gpi, OD .275", ID .204", 24.8gr insert, 11.6gr nock, 17gr for vanes, and 125gr tip. The arrow would weigh just under 500gr at 30.5" long. See what kind of FOC that nets me.


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## John Wayne

i will be looking to try some of the new Kinetic arrow when they get out. 

i have the DG .250 now. after i fletched them up and added the 100g brass inserts and 250g head. the FOC works out to be about 20%. total weight is about 850g.


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## IrkedCitizen

Yeah, 850gr is just too much for me. Lol.

I have thought about buying the .200 spine Kinetic. Cutting the carbon to 29.75" bringing the arrow to 30-3/8" and throwing a 180gr Silver Flame on it for a total arrow weight of roughly 579gr. My Vindicator at 31"/703 should launch it at approximately 270fps. I don't know how much the FOC will be but it should be over 15%


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## bullfisher

Its been a while since I last visited this thread, good to see its still full of good info. I haven't deviated from my last setup with the GT velocity 300 with about 20% at 450grn. The EFOC is amazing for big profile heads. Anyone else shooting heads over an inch and a half wide?


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## IrkedCitizen

IrkedCitizen said:


> Yeah, 850gr is just too much for me. Lol.
> 
> I have thought about buying the .200 spine Kinetic. Cutting the carbon to 29.75" bringing the arrow to 30-3/8" and throwing a 180gr Silver Flame on it for a total arrow weight of roughly 579gr. My Vindicator at 31"/70*#* should launch it at approximately 270fps. I don't know how much the FOC will be but it should be over 15%


My shift key didn't want to work. I meant 70# not 703. Lol.


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## John Wayne

im not sure about these 850g arrow either but i have them and will try them when this snow mealts. i usually shot around an 500-600g arrow but have shot one at about 750g. the drop is not too much more. you just have a lower starting point. I hope that makes sence. hoping to get to shotting these soon.


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## John Wayne

Ok so the snow and cold backed off enought last night for me to get a chance to shoot these DG FMJ. And let me say that i have finally found a arrow stiff enough to let me shoot 350g up frount out of an 80# bow. With my 250G abowyer head and 100g brass inserts these things fly great. straight down the middle. The arrow top the scale at 856.5 with an FOC of about 20%. i did notice more drop with these as the distance go past 30 yards. but for most of the hunting that i do 30 is good. i am very sure that i could get these to shot great and not ahve to worry about a pin for every 5 yards. But with the way the bow is set up now and the way the pins are on the sight here is what i had. with a 575g arrow my pins are set for 25, 33, 42, 50, 60. With this arrow I needed to use the 33pin at 25yards. the 42 pin at 31yards, the 50 pin at 36 and the 60 pin at 43yards. this is the yardage that i was hutting dead on with the pins. you will notice that i did not use the 25 yard pin. so if i would have move the sight down to use the 25yard pin at 25yards. the rest of them would not have bee so far off. i will had to try that sometime soon. but I'm sure that i could get it back to where the pins were spread out to about 8yards each with just some small movements of them. i am very pleased with these and how thy fly. will diffantly try to hunt with them next season.


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## Aggieland

your ready to kick some ***** now John Wayne.. Bring on them huge hogs :shade:


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## blasterak

Ok So I got a question about a arrow setup I'm putting together.
I just bought a dozen 7595 Goldtip Nugent arrows that are 10.2gpi and cut at 28". I am planning on installing 100gr inserts and using a 150gr point, which would give me a total of 250gr up front. This setup should yield me about 580gr total weight. I am shooting 55-60# @ 28" drawlength out of my bows. Do you think this setup would be underspined or would I be fine? I've been wanting to try heavy EFOC arrows. Right now I am shooting easton FMJ .340, total weight of about 460gr but my FOC is only about 9%. Wanting to switch back to GT's due to more durability and way more affordable. 
Looking forward to testing out this setup.


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## John Wayne

If i remember right the 7595 arrows are .300 spine or maybe a .340 spine. but cut to 28" and only out of a 60# bow you should be fine. just for examples i need a .250 spine to shot 350g head out of a 80# bow and my arrow are about 27" long. and i can shot a 225g heads using the .300 FMJ arrow out of the same bow. But to answer your question Yes i think that will work fine. may need some fine tuning but a good place to start.


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## blasterak

John Wayne said:


> If i remember right the 7595 arrows are .300 spine or maybe a .340 spine. but cut to 28" and only out of a 60# bow you should be fine. just for examples i need a .250 spine to shot 350g head out of a 80# bow and my arrow are about 27" long. and i can shot a 225g heads using the .300 FMJ arrow out of the same bow. But to answer your question Yes i think that will work fine. may need some fine tuning but a good place to start.


Sounds good, thanks for the help. 
I'll likely play around with tip weights. I just ordered some 150 gr Magnus stingers, those ought to hit hard!
Sent via Android


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## Mule Feathers

My last arrow was hovering around 10% FOC. I am getting a PSE EVO and was shopping for some new arrows. Long story short, I was having a difficult time finding an arrow that was spined right for my 60# and 28" DL. Most were too weak and a few were too stiff. I hated to pay over $12 an arrow for an Easton FMJ and I just happened to check out the Gold Tip Velocity. I was pleasantly suprised to find that they offered a .300 spine. So, I have this arrow all customed out and on the way. I am going to hunt with Magnus Buzzcuts though I am considering a switch to Slick Tricks. OT2 says my FOC will be 18.97%. I figure 18-20% is pretty extreme.:smile:

Gold Tip Velocity
28" long
50 grain insert weight
125 grain fixed blade
4" Trueflight helical feathers with wrap
453 grains

OT2 also says arrow should have around 77 KE and travel at approximately 277 fps. I don't know how close these programs are when figuring KE and speed but I know for a fact that arrow out of an EVO should disrupt some vitals. :wink:


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## rudl

I lost the track in searching for an answer in those 26 pages. So please forgive me if i ask a question which may be has been answered yet:
I am searching for a way to increase the FOC on my FMJ DG 250 to 15-18%. The 75gr. HIT inserts are already installed and glued in, so i can´t put on extra weight from behind, and i want to stick with 125gr. points and broadheads.
Is there an adaptor (weighing about 75 to 100gr) to screw into a standard insert which works as an insert for a standard fp or broadhead?


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## John Wayne

Well if you wanted to you could just add anouther insert in from the nock end. you could glue it and then add some glue to the frount of the insert and push it down the arrow from the backend. i ahve never done that but have played with the thought some. One other option that i can think of is to add an piece of alumin arrow over you shaft that weights about what you would want. Alot of people are doing it to make the frount end stronger. If you added about a 6" piece it would help some. those are the only 2 tha that i can think of if you do not want to change the broadhead weight. hope this helps.


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## DeepFried

Im using Victory VAPs with the half in/half outsert. The insert weighs 45 grs and i use a 125 gr head for 19 percent FOC!!!


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## tiny52

For the compound:
I have done a lot of this stuff over the last two years and haven't seen a big enough change to bother with...at hunting distances here in the northeast.
The last time I was using an Alaska grizzly stick and a CX250 at 18% and 8% respectively.
The result was 1/2" greater penetration for the stick and for that, I lost 4" on the elevation.

For the Recurve:
Very little elevation change and much better penetration at 30 yards.
At 20 yards, less penetration difference and a bit more elevation change for the Stick.
I stayed with the High FOC with the recurve


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## John Wayne

Tiny52, not sure how or what you used for a test medium but there are many thing that could effect the out come of those test. but if you are good with what you found then that is great. 

But if you would read some of the Ashaby stuff mainly the one on the 40# bow and high FOC arrow and heavy weight (about 750G). this set up was able to out penatrate the heavier bows with normal foc arrows of the same weight.


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## rudl

Thanks for the input!
I already thought about the second insert behind the first insert, but it would be a solution that could not be changed afterwards. And those HIT inserts are quite long. The second one would be already so close to the center of the arrow, it would increase FOC only 2%.
The Vaps inserts are too light. I want to compensate the exact difference between a 210gr silverflame and a 125gr slick trick.
The solution with the additional piece of shaft seems to be the best for now, but i don´t like to glue...
I just made a draft for the CNC lathe operator i trust in. I am thinking of a stainless steel sleeve which fits exact to the shaft, and gets connected by screwing on the point into the original insert.

I let you know if it works.


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## Whitey375

92# Guardian? They must have some big stuff over there.


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## rudl

We have to go to hungary for bowhunting, and you can come across 400+lbs wild boars there. (Old russian boars have really thick shields)
In this improbable case i don´t want to hide from them, and i dont want to make them angry by shooting halfway into the ribs, so 92# seems just right to me.


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## Fleahop

marked


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## shadetree

I built up a few arrows last night and plan to see how they shoot. Any concerns with my set-up below? 

GT XT 55/75, 28 1/4", 3-4" feathers, 125 grain Magnus, 20 grain added insert weight. 409 grain total, 17.7 FOC

GT XT 75/95, 28 1/4" 3-4" feathers, 125 grain Magnus, 50 grain added insert weight, 457 grain total, 19.1 FOC

Shooting 64# Z7

Thanks!

This has been one of the best threads I have read on AT.


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## buzzman2

This is a great thread. The Ashby reports should be read by all. Did you guys see the pass through (almost) on the dead elephant over on Alaska bowhunter supply and youtube? http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Ashby-Single-Bevel-Broadheads-P147C15.aspx Those Ashby heads are awesome. I would love to try them if I could afford them...


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## J-Daddy

I just got 2 dozen new Carbon Express Mayhem 350's in today...And I ordered some 50gr brass inserts tonight for them, gonna run a 100gr head on them and see if I can get them to tune, hopefully it wont weaken my spine to much with the heavier insert in them.


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## Ezbagr

I am thinking of trying some high foc arrows also. I am shooting a Carbon matrix at 55-60 pounds. I am looking at using the victory vx22hv v1 arrow at 30 inches with the victory components-26 grain insert-13 grain pin bushing-175 grain head-blazer vanes and bohning nock. According to ot2 the arrow comes out with 18.3% foc. I am shooting a carbon matrix at 55 pounds. What does everyone think of this setup?


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## Whitey375

Ezbagr. What spine are the VX 22's? If they are better than a 300 you'll be fine. Sounds like a butt kicken set up though. What will your total arrow weight be?


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## Whitey375

Shadetree, you should be good. If the heavy ones don't fly quite right I would try 2 20 grain inserts.


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## Make It Happen

reading all of the info on this website can drive a man or women to drink! all i know is my foc is def not over 9%, so I carry a small axe thats very front heavy with me as bck up! MY axe has a foc of around 89.75% and penetrates well... ok sorry my jokes stink but the avg guy on a budget doesnt have the time or money totinker with various setup, more so the money for me. It would be nice if there was a general range most could agree or would agree on. Maybe not me but your avg hunter walks into the store buys arrows and is off to the range! right or wrong... When I was a kid I didnt know what foc or spleen (haha) was. At 15 someone, my dad a non hunter was nice enough to buy me a bow and thats what I used. Now what pisses me off is I have memory(s) of killing deer at 35lbs with 125 thunderheads and getting passthroughs. Yes smaller deer but all bucks except my 1st a bb. But I got them all... And now I shoot what one would claim to be a much much nicer setup, 59lbs, etc etc and I'm having issues with passthroughs. To the point I am going to video tape th next few deer I shoot, I'm that upset with my penetration. So is my girl friend, lol she thinks these should be going deeper. All joking aside... I wish I had the money to run tests, try different bh's etc. So does foc really matter for the avg. Joe shooting 55lbs fro his older less then perfectly tuned bow? My point is at least on the avg NJ Deer it comes down to broadhead selection and shot placement. Low lbs, w/a small fixed head, good shot placement and yes super sharp blades! One thing I recall as a kid Thunderheads were scary sharp, I mean you touch them the wrong way an you bled. I think a lot of these bh's are not made sharp enough out of the package. Is the avg Joe going to sharpen or have the eq. to get them sharp? Are they going to visit websites like this one to learn about FOC? Heck I didnt think people from Ohio even had the internet until I came on here. Joking obviously...
*
My Take: I viewed the pictures on the 1st few pages and the 2nd test I think the English guy did. To me it really didnt seem to matter all that much even with that ultra low foc. So as long as its in a fair range and your arrows fly nice it appears that FOC doesnt really matter? right or wrong?  I guess some guys on here could use that extra inch of penetration! *


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## bbjavelina

To; Make It Happen,


I belileve that FOC does matter. It seems to me that higher FOC (I'm at 19.3%) makes for eaier tuning and generally better arrow flight, especially in windy conditions. It also aids in using the smaller fletch that is co common today. All of which makes good shot placement more likely.

My history is similiar to yours, but I've been steadily moving my FOC higher with what I percieve to be better results.

You're certaily right about some of todays broadheads. Not nearly sharp enough to suit me. These days I'm back to shooting Zwickeys which are scary sharp. I had been shooting replaceable blade heads from a well known manf. and each of those was hand sharpened. And touched up after they had only been in and out of the quiver a couple of times. 

I don't want to be the "Avg. Joe Bowhunter". I want my setup to perform well at those times when my shot is less than perfect. I think higher FOC, reasonable arrow mass, and super sharp heads gives me some advantage. And, bekieve me, I need all the advantages I can get by tinkering with my gear.

Best of luck to you.


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## John Wayne

BBjavelina, Well said. 

to Make it Happen, with your set at 55# you can get to some higher FOC very easy. just pick up some .340 spine arrows and add some brass inserts. you did not state which arrow or heads you shoot so i will just guess a few out there. take a 55/75 goldtip and with an "avg" lenght of about 29" you could add a 50-75g brass insert for about $1 each and then a 125G head of your choice and you would be up there above 15% foc I would guess. it would work the same with a 75/95 GT arrow also if the 55/75 is too weak spine the foc would just be a little less. it would work the same with teh FMJ. but with the extra weight of them then FOC is less or you could add more weight. teh .340 in FMJ with a 75g insert and 125g head are a great set-up. With the lower draw weight there is less testing to see what will work because you are not at the very edge of the arrow limits. if you were shoting 80# at like a 30" draw then yo wuold have a time finding what would work and what would not. 

But i see your point. testing/playing is fun but does cost. it has taken me most of last year and deer season to get new parts bought and tested. and some of them did not work and i had to either try to sell them on here or keep them or later. if you are wanting to try arrows and see what works for you then buy on here. you can buy small groups of like 3 and 4 and not be out the full 12 if they don't work. or look on Eagle archery web site and you can buy 1arrow at a time. Great way to by 3 or 4 different ones and see what you like. 

but does it matter. i truly believe that it does. i have seen some thing this year since changing that make me a beliver. the main one is the last pig i shot. 56yard right in the front leg. the arrow cut the leg bone in half and still penatrated the pig's chest and exited the other side. That was a bad shot on my part. i rushed it and made a bad shot but i have also done the same thing at 12yards. now i do say that to say you can just take more shots. only to say that when a bad shot does happen there is a much better chance of still recovering the animal because of the added penatration you will get. Read some of the Ashaby report over on the Alaskan Bowhunter web site. the one with teh 40# bow and high FOC arrow penarating the buff at 20yards is hard to pass up. 

If you want to try some brass inserts just pm some in this thread that have done a lot of posting and see if you could buy 2 or 3 off of them to try. if you shot FMJ's i have both the 50-75 and 100g ones that i would be willing to let you have at a good deal to keep you from having to buy 12 just to try them. I hope you stick with it. you can once again enjoy the pass throughs of your past.


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## shadetree

Whitey375 said:


> Shadetree, you should be good. If the heavy ones don't fly quite right I would try 2 20 grain inserts.


Thanks for the reply. They are flying pretty well but a tad low and left. Waiting for some descent weather so I can shoot some distance.


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## Ezbagr

Whitey375, after doing a little more research I found that they consider the matrix to be a 2 cam hard bow. When I ran the numbers the first time i was using the 2 cam xtra hard. Now with the numbers i posted it is on the stiff side. I did some more research and come up with the following numbers using the Harvest Time HT-2, using a 29.75 length with a 150 grain head, 13 grain insert,2 inch blazer vanes and bohning nock=410 rain arrow with 17.1% foc or I could go with a 175 grain tip-cut arrows to 29.25 and end up with a 428 grain arrow with 19.1% foc.


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## dtrkyman

so what weight head can i get to shoot with a cx maxima 350 at 28 inches 62lbs out of a gt500 and a dream season uf?

i would like to try the steelforce premium single bevel which are 225 grains,can this arrow handle it?


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## Whitey375

Shadetree, try bare shaft tuning also. I did and I no longer believe it's just for trad bows. 

Ezbagr, I have no experience with the Harvest Time arrows, but the numbers sound good. I don't think I would use the 175's unless they are at least a 340 spine and 300 would be better.


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## Whitey375

Dtrkyman, those are only a 340 spine, I would shoot no more than 150 to 160 grains up front. I know that arrow with just a 125, your length, with Blazers, run right at 14%, so with 25 more grains would push you firmly into 16% territory, not bad. If you are wanting to run that kind of weight up front, shoot the 450's.


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## Ezbagr

According to the ot2 selector the optimal spine is .3566 and I am on the stiff side of that with the 19.1% foc arrow. Is there a concern of having such a heavy head on a .350 spine shaft even though it works out to be a little on the stiff side on the ot2 selector?


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## dtrkyman

i may have some pse or cx 400s around which i believe are 300 spine so i may play with them.


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## dtrkyman

Whitey375 said:


> Dtrkyman, those are only a 340 spine, I would shoot no more than 150 to 160 grains up front. I know that arrow with just a 125, your length, with Blazers, run right at 14%, so with 25 more grains would push you firmly into 16% territory, not bad. If you are wanting to run that kind of weight up front, shoot the 450's.


i played around yesterday with 157 grains total up front(125 point 12 insert and 20 brass weight) shot fine out of an aramid 250 and maxima 350 with only slight paper tears with no adjustments to my rest.im thinking the 350s would easily handle up to 175 up front.
i do have some cx and pse 400 arrows as well to mess with which i think are a 300 spine.


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## dtrkyman

ttt


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## Whitey375

To find the limit, keep addding 10 grs at a time, shooting through paper each time until the tear starts changing. Then back off 10 grains. That'd be what I do.


----------



## tpcollins

3B43 said:


> What I found out is this: I could use much smaller vanes w/this BH and it 'appeared' that the arrow flew perfectly down range. How small a vane? W/the XL150 I used 3 3d vanes! and the arrow flew perfectly--the AAE 187 vanes that I'm using for my 3d rig! I was REALLY surprised at this. Am I hunting w/this set-up? No, I sent w/3 mini Blazers.


With a higher FOC, naturally the balance point is closer to the tip end and farther from the nock end (and fletching). The farther the balance point is from the fletching, the easier it is for the fletching to steer the arrow - thereby allowing the use of smaller (and lighter) fletching (I'm sure the physics police from another world will find fault with this). I'm at 13% (with my measurement method) and I'd have to go to 125gr to get any more which I don't want to do.


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## Patriotboy

would I be underspined. I have fmj 400 with 50gr. insert and 125gr heads cut at 26''. I'm shooting 63lbs the bow is a 2011 omen pro 28'' draw.
Thanks for any help


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## dtrkyman

Patriotboy said:


> would I be underspined. I have fmj 400 with 50gr. insert and 125gr heads cut at 26''. I'm shooting 63lbs the bow is a 2011 omen pro 28'' draw.
> Thanks for any help


i would say so, but with that short of an arrow it may work.


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## rudl

Patriotboy said:


> would I be underspined. I have fmj 400 with 50gr. insert and 125gr heads cut at 26''. I'm shooting 63lbs the bow is a 2011 omen pro 28'' draw.
> Thanks for any help


OT says you are underspined 0.064 (x-force omen 2010)
With a 340 FMJ you would be spot on.


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## Patriotboy

great thanks


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## k o

J-Daddy, have you tried out the new CX's w/ 50 grain brass inserts yet? I want to do the same w/ CX Blue Streak in a 350, cut to 29". Did you order the brass inserts from 3Rivers?


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## Whitey375

I have recently switched to a lower poundage setup as my shoulders have decided I am done with 70+# bows. It is soooo easy to hit high FOC safely with low poundage. My 3D arrows, 28" Gold Tip Ultralight 400's with 3 mini Blazers, their speed nocks, and a glue in 50 grain ez pull point. Then I added 100 grains behind it for a finished weight of 382 grains and an FOC of 16.7% and I really wasn't trying. Granted I am only shooting them at 53#, but they fly like darts. When hunting season gets closer I will be switching to higher poundage and these won't be safe any more, but for now they are working well.


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## bullfisher

Whitey375 said:


> I have recently switched to a lower poundage setup as my shoulders have decided I am done with 70+# bows. It is soooo easy to hit high FOC safely with low poundage. My 3D arrows, 28" Gold Tip Ultralight 400's with 3 mini Blazers, their speed nocks, and a glue in 50 grain ez pull point. Then I added 100 grains behind it for a finished weight of 382 grains and an FOC of 16.7% and I really wasn't trying. Granted I am only shooting them at 53#, but they fly like darts. When hunting season gets closer I will be switching to higher poundage and these won't be safe any more, but for now they are working well.


Guess I never really thought about the low poundage aspect of achieving efoc. Hope your shoulder feels better by elk season ******:wink:


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## Whitey375

Thanks bud.


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## J-Daddy

k o said:


> J-Daddy, have you tried out the new CX's w/ 50 grain brass inserts yet? I want to do the same w/ CX Blue Streak in a 350, cut to 29". Did you order the brass inserts from 3Rivers?


I got the inserts from a guy on eBay, they didn't work in my CX Mayhems, the inserts were to big. I ended up putting some 20gr gold tip weights on the CX inserts. I'm running about 131grs or so on the front now, 100gr head, 11gr insert & 20gr weight.... They tuned great but my FOC isn't that good.


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## Whitey375

J-Daddy, what's your set up?


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## J-Daddy

Bow wise, Athens eXceed, 28.5" draw, 70lbs
Arrow- Carbon Express Mayhem 350, throat of nock to the end 27" long, 4" wrap, 4 Blazer vanes, CX insert with 20gr Gold Tip weight, Bohning Blazer double lock nocks, CX Bulldog Collar, for hunting a 100gr Shuttle T-Lock broadheads. From my math the arrow weighs about 436grs total.


----------



## J-Daddy

Bow wise, Athens eXceed, 28.5" draw, 70lbs
Arrow- Carbon Express Mayhem 350, throat of nock to the end 27" long, 4" wrap, 4 Blazer vanes, CX insert with 20gr Gold Tip weight, Bohning Blazer double lock nocks, CX Bulldog Collar, for hunting a 100gr Shuttle T-Lock broadheads. From my math the arrow weighs about 436grs total.


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## Whitey375

I have ran basically your same set up, with 1.25" longer arrows with an additional 20 grains inside. Maybe boost your FOC a bit.

Internal weights don't weaken your dynamic spine as much as raw point weight.


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## J-Daddy

Whitey375 said:


> I have ran basically your same set up, with 1.25" longer arrows with an additional 20 grains inside. Maybe boost your FOC a bit.
> 
> Internal weights don't weaken your dynamic spine as much as raw point weight.


 I might order some more weights and throw another 20grs in there and see what it does...I guess I need the tool "long Allen wrench" to do it though.


----------



## Whitey375

J-Daddy said:


> I might order some more weights and throw another 20grs in there and see what it does...I guess I need the tool "long Allen wrench" to do it though.


 Cheap way to do it, go to the hardware store and buy some 8/32"set screws. The 1.25 or 1.375" ones weigh right at 43 grains. Either way you can thread them in from the front with a small allen wrench just deep enough to allow a field point to seat. Could be a permanent solution too if you use blue lock tite.


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## mtn3531

heavy arrows are quieter, this is what I like best about 'em. That and they hit like a ton of bricks


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## Rockyhud

Dtrkyman, if you check my signature you'll see that I'm shooting Maxima 350s with 170 grain heads and they are shooting and flying great. I also switched my vanes on all my arrows to Bi-Delta 2.5' Sharkstooth, which I found to be better than either 2" Blazer and 2.1" Fusion vanes - flying better, especially in high winds/cross winds - and they weigh less than Blazers. Both my arrows are literally flying like darts now and hitting reliably where I aim out to 50 yards in some pretty stiff winds.



dtrkyman said:


> i played around yesterday with 157 grains total up front(125 point 12 insert and 20 brass weight) shot fine out of an aramid 250 and maxima 350 with only slight paper tears with no adjustments to my rest.im thinking the 350s would easily handle up to 175 up front.
> i do have some cx and pse 400 arrows as well to mess with which i think are a 300 spine.


----------



## dtrkyman

just bought some 50 grain brass inserts addedto a 125 grain point and the 12 grain insert for 187 grains up front.

flight is good with a 28.25 inch maxima 350 at 62lbs. foc should be between 16 and 17% total 430 to 450 total weight.


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## Whitey375

Dtrkyman,
When I ran that exact same arrow, a 125 alone gave me 14% @ 426 grains. With an additional 50 grains, should put you at least 17%. Come to think of it while posting this, I have that arrow in the garage. I'll go set it up and measure.


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## Whitey375

Ok, well, my arrows ended up being 27.5" long, from the throat to the face so that is going to mess the numbers up a bit, but this is what I got. 463 total weight and 17.2%. That is with 3 blazers, no wrap, nock and collar. Hope that helped.


----------



## jloar

On my OT2 program I'm looking at a Victory HV 300 shaft at 28" with my 125gr gr Magnus Buzzcut 2 blade broadhead and 70gr of insert weight added and a 20gr nocturnal nock at the back with 4" Duravanes for maximum stability and 65lb draw weight on my Bowtech Destroyer 350 at my 28.25" draw length for 285FPS. The program says I'm spot on for spine and my FOV is 19.08% and it will be 450gr total arrow weight. Sounds like this should be an elk slaying SOB. Hope so anyway, got my first archery elk hunt coming this fall.


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## bambieslayer

so my vaps just got here from jeremy at truflight custom arrows can anyone figure my foc for me as I don't know the formula 
27.25" ttl arrowlength 9" from tip balance point 
125 grn head 
33 grn. insert 
24.75" shaft x 7.4 gpi=183.15 grn 
18.6 grn vanes
6 grn. nock


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## jloar

Bambieslayer,
Your FOC is 18.84%.


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## jloar

Correction, my OT2 program is now saying I'm underspined. Don't know what changed on it but now it looks like I can only add 50 gr at the insert for a total arrow weight of 430gr and a velocity of 292fps and a FOC of 17.62%


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## Whitey375

Shoot a bare shaft with a fletched shaft through paper, that will tell you how underspined you are, if at all.


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## bambieslayer

thanks jloar


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## jloar

I think I can tell about underspine at the target as well. As I add weight to the insert if the arrow starts to change point of impact horizontally that should tell me when I'm starting to max out my spine.

The problem with checking on paper with a bare shaft vs. a fletched shaft is the fletching at the back has the affect of adding spine to the arrow. If I take 30gr of fletching away (I use 4" Duravanes) I probably need to take a comparable amount of tip weight away to level the playing field.


----------



## hugepike

Anyone try shooting the 300 gr Ashby heads. I'm trying to use the stiffest Grizzly Stick Safari series and I am still show 'under spined'. I've been told that Extreme F.O.C. arrows behave differently than those with out E.F.O.C. 31" arrow 70# Qarbon Nona.


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## Glenn-bob

jloar said:


> I think I can tell about underspine at the target as well. As I add weight to the insert if the arrow starts to change point of impact horizontally that should tell me when I'm starting to max out my spine.
> 
> The problem with checking on paper with a bare shaft vs. a fletched shaft is the fletching at the back has the affect of adding spine to the arrow. If I take 30gr of fletching away (I use 4" Duravanes) I probably need to take a comparable amount of tip weight away to level the playing field.


You can add the equivalent weight in electrical tape to compensate for the absent fletching...Works pretty well...


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## bullfisher

hugepike said:


> Anyone try shooting the 300 gr Ashby heads. I'm trying to use the stiffest Grizzly Stick Safari series and I am still show 'under spined'. I've been told that Extreme F.O.C. arrows behave differently than those with out E.F.O.C. 31" arrow 70# Qarbon Nona.


A 31" arrow is a hard length to put 300grns on up front. Any way you can shorten that arrow or is your draw really that long?


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## hugepike

Yeah. Actually my draw is 31.25" really are there any shafts stiff enough to take that much weight up front?


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## Rockyhud

Glad to see this thread is still alive and getting more people interested. I'm still researching options as well and ran across a very interesting thread when doing a search to see if there were any viable methods of implementing INTERNAL footing with carbon shafts. Like many others, I've heard and read about external footing of wood shafts and even other types like carbons, but I didn't want to increase the shaft outside diameter, especially right after the broadhead (so as to not decrease penetration potential), hence my interest in internal footing. I found a very well written and photographed thread on the tradgang.com site (http://tradgang.com/rob/foc/). In this he started with a 29.25" Beman ICS 500 carbon shaft  carbon shaft with 100 grain brass point ferrule, 4" banana 4-fletch and a Bohning nock, with NO weight tube added that weighed 332 grains. With the weighted footing the weight went up to 492. Then with a 174 grain broadhead it went to 667 grains. Here's his final comment about this concoction. "The resulting 29.25" weight tube footed arrows fly like darts out of a 55# holding weight longbow, with no wobble or other erratic flight, and although the arrow spine is slightly lessened, there is no 'tail left' when shooting into target butts." Pretty neat trick if it will work. I'm going to give this a try with my Maxima 350s very soon and will report back the results.


----------



## roosclan

So what exactly do y'all consider extreme FOC? I'm using OT2 to get my arrows figured out for my Maitland Retribution VTR and here's what I've come up with:

27" HT-2 350
standard HT-2 nock (14.7gr)
150gr SilverFlame XL broadhead (or a 150gr field point)
20gr Gold Tip screw-in weight
12gr of arrow wrap on the back in front of a FOB (24gr) and standard HT-2 nock (8.9gr)
Comes up with a total weight of 448gr and a F.O.C. of 16.92%

If I use a 125gr Snuffer SS or Phoenix and 50gr screw-in weight the total weight is 453gr and F.O.C. is 17.29%


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## Rockyhud

I defer to what Dr Ed Ashby has determined as to what high FOC and EFOC are. Here's what he says (directly from Arrow Lethality Study Update – 2005 Part II By Dr. Ed Ashby).

"Arrows having a FOC between 12% and 19% are designated as “High FOC”. High FOC can be achieved with most shaft materials through the use of the lower shaft weights, heavier
broadheads and/or shaft footings. The upper limit for high FOC is based on what appears to be the point at which a clearly defined change in penetration characteristics was noted in the focal study.

“Extreme FOC” arrows are designated as those with a FOC of 19% or greater. Achieving this percentage, or greater, of weight FOC requires the use of significant weight at the front of the shaft, as well as fairly light shaft weight relative to the weight of the point."


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## Rockyhud

Well, my experiment with weighted internal footing didn't work out. The thread on tradgang did emphasize the metal weight and weight tube must be a tight fit, and I tried to achieve just that, but the weight piece had a change of mind as to where it wanted to be when shot from my bow. It came out the nock end about half way between my shooting location and the 20 yards to my target, popping the nock off (actually pushed it into the nock's hollow inserted area) and stopping about 3 yards beyond the target. I'm guessing that maybe this method of internal weighted footing might work for trad bows but not compounds, due to the higher and quicker launch speeds involved. Too bad as I think this setup would have been almost perfect for a big and/or dangerous game arrow - I had achieved almost exactly the "magical" 650 grains bone busting threshold weight with a 175 grain Grizzly head and had a little over 28% FOC.

I may pursue this further by seeing if I can remove the existing insert without damaging the shaft and seeing if I can find some aluminum tubing to work up the weight and then glue this weighted footing into the shaft behind the insert and then re-glue the insert back in. Last week I found a hobby shop in town that has a pretty good selection of K&S aluminum tubing of several sizes with several being a close telescoping fit. Using a glued in weighted footing should at least stay in place so I can see how well the setup works.


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## Whitey375

That sounds very interesting Rocky, keep us posted.


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## bbjavelina

Rocky,

What kind of glue are you thinking on using?

I've thought about this concept for several years, but never got around to it. My idea was to use some Al shaft for the footing with an insert installed and to use a long setscrew to attach the footing to the back of the regular insert. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Rockyhud

BB, that sounds like an interesting experiment. If you do this and have any luck we'll be anxious to hear the results. I like your idea of using a screw as part of the footing material to attach it to the insert.

For my experiment I had thought of using a good quality insert glue, providing the fit was reasonably snug between the tubing and shaft ID. I found some K&S thin walled aluminum tubing in 7/32" OD that was as close to the ID of my Maxima 350 shafts as they had. The 3/16" steel rod I bought for weight fit very nicely inside the tubing so I bought one foot-long length to play around with. Once I got it home I determined there was just too much slop between the aluminum tubing and shaft ID to want to use it as I feared I might throw off the radial balance of the shaft if I tried gluing it and wasn't able to get it absolutely centered end to end. I was also thinking this loose fit wouldn't necessarily produce the same footing effect as desired since I couldn't guarantee even and consistent glue fill all around the tubing-to-shaft shaft and end to end. So I decided to not pursue this method further.

Since then I discovered what may be an alternative to this method. Gold Tip has some 60 and 110 grain threaded brass inserts available that supposedly fit most "standard size" carbon shafts snugly. The 110-gr insert is 1.5" long. Not as long as I had hoped though. I'm now thinking I don't have time nor the equipment that may be needed to pursue this. I think the rationale is sound - I just don't have the wherewithal to do it right. I also had one nagging thought all along that these Maxima 350s might not handle that much weight even with the footing to distribute the load given their spine is only .345. I've been considering buying some Gold Tip Velocity XT 300 shafts as they'd have a better chance of handling the EFOC weight with their .300 spine. Their Kinetic shafts are available with .200 spine but these wouldn't combine the light shaft and heavy front weight Dr Ashby suggested work best. According to OT2 this shaft would work very nicely with my El Grande broadheads and 100-gr steel adapters (making them 265-gr) and additional 100-gr insert weight but then I'd have a 770 grain arrow by the time I achieved 26.6% FOC. Great for hunting big dangerous game in Africa but overkill for what I'll hunt here.


----------



## bbjavelina

Rocky,

Judging from your signature, we think along the same lines. That Firecat is dooing well to get 560 gr moving at 250 fps. Been getting 244 fps, but tweaked the cams a bit today and haven't re-chronoed. 

The problem with the internal footing is getting the right fit, obviously. I think it'd be easier if using a fat shaft rather than the GT's hunters I'm using now. I doubt I'll pursue it until I retire (11 months) and I'm making my second, and last, African trip in August. After that, I doubt I'll need it, but I do love to tinker.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Whitey375

Ttt


----------



## crankn101

for later...


----------



## Whitey375

hugepike said:


> Yeah. Actually my draw is 31.25" really are there any shafts stiff enough to take that much weight up front?


 Take a look at the Gold Tip Big Game 100, or the Kinetics in 200 spine.


----------



## Q2DEATH

Was looking for this thread. Don' have time read it all right now but I"m going to play with some Easton Axis 400's with the 50 grain brass H I T insert and 125 grain head. Total arrow weight will be about 445 and 29" long with about 18% F O C.

Do the heavier brass inserts weaken the spine as oppossed to the standard 16 grain. Seems they would.


----------



## Garceau

Any time you are putting heavier weight up front on the same arrow you are essentially weakening the spine.

How much? Would have to run it through a progam for that.


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## Glenn-bob

Q2DEATH said:


> Was looking for this thread. Don' have time read it all right now but I"m going to play with some Easton Axis 400's with the 50 grain brass H I T insert and 125 grain head. Total arrow weight will be about 445 and 29" long with about 18% F O C.
> 
> Do the heavier brass inserts weaken the spine as oppossed to the standard 16 grain. Seems they would.


PLEASE be careful with that!!! You don't want to end up on a thread with the caption "Look what happened to this guy...Weak arrow spine". You can put arrow splinters through your arm!
I spoke to Easton and they recommended against an Axis 340 with 50 grn. brass insert from a 70 lb. Destroyer (27" shaft) with 125 grn. broadhead. They said I'd be right on the edge and it could be unsafe. They recommended the 300 spine and it tuned very well. Ended up at 496 grns. If I recall correctly the FOC was in the mid to high 16% range.


----------



## Q2DEATH

Glenn-bob said:


> PLEASE be careful with that!!! You don't want to end up on a thread with the caption "Look what happened to this guy...Weak arrow spine". You can put arrow splinters through your arm!
> I spoke to Easton and they recommended against an Axis 340 with 50 grn. brass insert from a 70 lb. Destroyer (27" shaft) with 125 grn. broadhead. They said I'd be right on the edge and it could be unsafe. They recommended the 300 spine and it tuned very well. Ended up at 496 grns. If I recall correctly the FOC was in the mid to high 16% range.


That doesn't sound good!

I shot the one arrow I made out of both my 77 pound and 70 pound XLR's and they both bullet holed perfectly without moving anything. Didn't get to do any other shooting. 

Didn't think that an arrow spine would be weakened enough to blow up with what I'd done.


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## dtrkyman

in regards to internal footing why not external?

i built a guy some arrows for an elephant hunts years ago, if i remember correctly i epoxied a cx400 inside of a 2317 and also had it cut so it fit tight between the insert and nock.

it was shot out of a 100lb pse custom bow, five inch feathers and a 210 grain steel force head, thinking back on it the foc was probably not what was needed but the finished arrow was 1300 grains, and he did kill an elephant with a single arrow.

maybe put an insert in the aluminum piece of shaft cut 4 to 6 inches, add epoxy then slide the carbon shaft inside till it hit the insert and let it set up.

i am going to see if i have some old aluminums to play with.


----------



## bullfisher

Glenn-bob said:


> PLEASE be careful with that!!! You don't want to end up on a thread with the caption "Look what happened to this guy...Weak arrow spine". You can put arrow splinters through your arm!
> I spoke to Easton and they recommended against an Axis 340 with 50 grn. brass insert from a 70 lb. Destroyer (27" shaft) with 125 grn. broadhead. They said I'd be right on the edge and it could be unsafe. They recommended the 300 spine and it tuned very well. Ended up at 496 grns. If I recall correctly the FOC was in the mid to high 16% range.


 Yes, thats getting close to the edge but bare shaft tuning will tell all. I have stacked 185 grains total on the front of a 340 spine arrow at 27" 70# and been fine but when you start to add aggressive speed bows in to the mix you start to push it. You would be surprised at how much weight up front it takes to under spine an arrow. But for safety reasons we should all be starting off with a 300 spine arrow. Over spining a setup can usually be tuned out somehow. Personally I like the GT velocity for this, as its tough, light (8.5 I believe) and 300 spine. So you don't have to shoot a 600grn arrow to get your EFOC if you don't want to.


----------



## Q2DEATH

I'm shooting a more mellow bow for hunting. Elite XLR. Not a speed bow at all so I'm hoping I'm safe. Its the 77lbs that might be problem. Will bare shaft tune one this weekend.

I can drop the point weight to a 100 grain and get some spine back but then I'm only getting 12.5 foc and 425 grains. Thats pretty standard.


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## dtrkyman

ok so the internal footing thing got me thinking(scary).

i had some carbon express weight tubes laying around and figured i would see if i had anything i could epoxy into them and found that the wrench gold tip sells for there brass weights fits snugly inside the weight tube.

so i think i could epoxy a metal or brass rod inside the weight tube cut to desired length and weight then epoxy the weight tube inside the arrow shaft and get the total arrow weight and foc waaay up.

gonna see what i can come up with, how long do you think the footing should be? i guess the longer it is the less effect on softening the spine itmay have.


----------



## bbjavelina

dtrkyman said:


> ok so the internal footing thing got me thinking(scary).
> 
> i had some carbon express weight tubes laying around and figured i would see if i had anything i could epoxy into them and found that the wrench gold tip sells for there brass weights fits snugly inside the weight tube.
> 
> so i think i could epoxy a metal or brass rod inside the weight tube cut to desired length and weight then epoxy the weight tube inside the arrow shaft and get the total arrow weight and foc waaay up.
> 
> gonna see what i can come up with, how long do you think the footing should be? i guess the longer it is the less effect on softening the spine itmay have.


How long? Going longer will drop your FOC. Weight is good --- forward weight is better.


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## dtrkyman

bbjavelina said:


> How long? Going longer will drop your FOC. Weight is good --- forward weight is better.


not sure gonna have to cut some pieces and see how much they weigh, no more than 3 or 4 inches im guessing.


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## bbjavelina

dtrkyman said:


> not sure gonna have to cut some pieces and see how much they weigh, no more than 3 or 4 inches im guessing.


No longer than that and you're not sacrificing much FOC. Be interesting to hear your results.


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## N7709K

indoor its awesome, outdoor it get way too much drop

30" fullbore wtih 250grs upfront, blazers and g nocks


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## dtrkyman

ok found some old beman 70/90 shafts laying around and they fit like a glove inside cx arrows, they run around 9.2 grains per inch. should work great for footing and since there hollow i can fill them with epoxy and bump up the grains per inch a bunch.

i wonder what length would give optimum foc and help with spine at the same time? guess i may have to experiment.


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## Rockyhud

******'s given good advice with these two shafts. I currently have 215 grains on the front of my 29" Big Game shafts and they are flying very well. A couple of months ago I finally pulled the trigger and bought the full Ontarget2 archery software. It confirmed this shaft and weight I use to be a good match - just ever so slightly on the weak side of perfect spine for my setup. I've also played around with OT2 using the Kinetic 200 spine shafts and found they really like heavy front weight - if I recall correctly even using 300 grains for tip weight was showing a slightly stiff spine with my setup and a 29" shaft. I've also played with some other newer Gold Tip shafts and found their new Velocity XT 300 spine with 205 grain tip weight and 2.5" Sharkstooth vanes (about 15 grains total weight for all three) with my setup shows to be a perfect spine and produces just under 21% FOC with a total weight of almost 490 grains. I just ordered a dozen of these shafts today and can't wait to see how well they work with this config.



Whitey375 said:


> Take a look at the Gold Tip Big Game 100, or the Kinetics in 200 spine.


----------



## Rockyhud

The reason I brought this into the fray was from reading more of the Ashby reports recently and one in particular where he was using internal footing with carbon shafts and created what he essentially considered the ultimate big game hunting arrows. This arrow weighed right at 650 grains total (thus just breaking the "bone busting guarantee" weight threshold) and had around 30% FOC and used his tried and true modified Grizzly single bevel 2-blade broadhead. His tests indicated this to have as much penetration capability as arrows weighing in the 800+ grain range due to the EFOC and being right at the bone busting weight threshold he had determined in earlier tests. He also commented the only way he knew how to achieve this was using carbon arrows and internal footing so as to not increase the outside dimensions near the base of the broadhead which would inhibit penetration.



dtrkyman said:


> ok so the internal footing thing got me thinking(scary).
> 
> i had some carbon express weight tubes laying around and figured i would see if i had anything i could epoxy into them and found that the wrench gold tip sells for there brass weights fits snugly inside the weight tube.
> 
> so i think i could epoxy a metal or brass rod inside the weight tube cut to desired length and weight then epoxy the weight tube inside the arrow shaft and get the total arrow weight and foc waaay up.
> 
> gonna see what i can come up with, how long do you think the footing should be? i guess the longer it is the less effect on softening the spine itmay have.


----------



## Whitey375

I just was playing with some 28" FMJ 340's and some twisted wire and came up with a 686 grain arrow with 6% FOC. Lol. Don't think it will be much of a bone breaker.


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## Whitey375

Not sure if anyone has seen these, I didn't bother digging through 29 pages, but Muzzy makes some 50 & 100 grain brass inserts that fit inside standard diameter, .244-.246 I.D. shafts. I found them in Lancasters book, but have also seen them on 3 Rivers' site. LAS has them for $9.99/6 pack. Thought I would share.


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## J-Daddy

Alright FOC gurus let me run this one by you....Right now I'm shooting a PSE Omen Pro, 28.5" draw @ 70lbs...For shafts I'm shooting the HTA Ht-2, .350 spine, .001 straightness with a 4" wrap and 3 Blazer vanes. I have the arrows cut down pretty short, I think it's like 26.5" of carbon and for now they still have the stock insert in them and I'm running a 100gr head...Finished out the arrow weighs like 358grs. Fine for 3-d and they shoot good "and are smoking fast out of the Omen" but I want to bump them up to about 400grs for hunting. So I ordered some 50gr Gold Tip inserts weights...How bad is this gonna screw the 350 spine arrows up???Also am I gonna take a chance on blowing them up with the added 50grs on the back of the insert??? I plan to stick with the 100gr heads since I have a bunch of them and the arrow should finish out around 408grs. That's about the weight I want to be at for this setup since it makes a ton of energy anyway and I wont be shooting anything bigger than an Iowa whitetail this fall but I still want to retain good speed for my antelope hunt in Sept.


----------



## jloar

My OT2 program estimates the weight of your arrow at 342gr so maybe I'm underestimating the weight of the wrap or nock or insert or maybe the arrow length is longer than 26.5"? Anyway, the setup as enterred is bringing back a recommended spine of .31-.32 so you are probably a little underspined right now. Adding 50gr up front yields a recommended spine of .294 so probably not a real good idea to add the weight.


----------



## Whitey375

J-Daddy said:


> Alright FOC gurus let me run this one by you....Right now I'm shooting a PSE Omen Pro, 28.5" draw @ 70lbs...For shafts I'm shooting the HTA Ht-2, .350 spine, .001 straightness with a 4" wrap and 3 Blazer vanes. I have the arrows cut down pretty short, I think it's like 26.5" of carbon and for now they still have the stock insert in them and I'm running a 100gr head...Finished out the arrow weighs like 358grs. Fine for 3-d and they shoot good "and are smoking fast out of the Omen" but I want to bump them up to about 400grs for hunting. So I ordered some 50gr Gold Tip inserts weights...How bad is this gonna screw the 350 spine arrows up???Also am I gonna take a chance on blowing them up with the added 50grs on the back of the insert??? I plan to stick with the 100gr heads since I have a bunch of them and the arrow should finish out around 408grs. That's about the weight I want to be at for this setup since it makes a ton of energy anyway and I wont be shooting anything bigger than an Iowa whitetail this fall but I still want to retain good speed for my antelope hunt in Sept.


First question, is the .350 spine rating exact or is it more like a Maxima 350 at .337?

I would get the 10 & 20 grain weights and then start playing from there. Use broadheads and field points interchangeably while experimenting that way you can see if your spine starts getting weak.
When I had a D350 with 28" Maxima 350's, I could only add about 30 grains before things started moving. And your Omen is slightly more violent and angry than my D350 was, so I would put a negative on that ghost rider. I would try some GT UL 300's with that same 100 grains up front and 50 inside. You might end up slightly heavier, like 420 than your target weight, but you'll end up around 19% FOC and be golden. FWIW, when I drew my antelope tag in 09 I was gtg at 80+, ended up killing mine at 18, lol.


----------



## incendiaerus

Foc 9% - 11%


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## Whitey375

incendiaerus said:


> Foc 9% - 11%


peanut butter and jelly?


----------



## J-Daddy

Whitey375 said:


> First question, is the .350 spine rating exact or is it more like a Maxima 350 at .337?
> 
> I would get the 10 & 20 grain weights and then start playing from there. Use broadheads and field points interchangeably while experimenting that way you can see if your spine starts getting weak.
> When I had a D350 with 28" Maxima 350's, I could only add about 30 grains before things started moving. And your Omen is slightly more violent and angry than my D350 was, so I would put a negative on that ghost rider. I would try some GT UL 300's with that same 100 grains up front and 50 inside. You might end up slightly heavier, like 420 than your target weight, but you'll end up around 19% FOC and be golden. FWIW, when I drew my antelope tag in 09 I was gtg at 80+, ended up killing mine at 18, lol.


I was afraid you'd say that...lol
I'll probably keep the 350's like they are and shoot them for 3-d and then build something in a 300 spine before hunting season and then play with the 50gr weights on them.


----------



## incendiaerus

Whitey375 said:


> peanut butter and jelly?


PBJ for the WIN!


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## Whitey375

incendiaerus said:


> PBJ for the WIN!


 Curse you!!! Lmao


----------



## trimalimb

I have been reading Dr. Ashby's research on momentum forces and Extreme F.O.C. The way I was understanding his findings, it sounds that an arrow weighing in at around 655 grains and a F.O.C. at 31.4% has exceptional Penetration characteristics. So my goal for this season was to try and build an arrow close to these specs. I currently have a Elite Fire 27.5" draw 61.43lbs and a PSE Vendetta XS 27.7" 70lbs. Using Goldtips calculator I took various Easton, Speed Pro, GoldTip, Carbon Force, and Victory arrows and plugged them into the calculator with different broadhead weights to try and achieve the above mentioned arrow weight 655 and 31.4% E.F.O.C. The closest I could achieve was the following. Victory VAP V1 .300spine (8.9gpi), cut 27", VAP standard Bohning "F" (nocks 6g), 3 GoldTip superspine 3" vanes (6.6g) right offset, Victory penetrator insert 5/16" (43g), and the Ashby single bevel (broadhead 315g). According to the Goldtips Calculations This set up would put my arrow at 624.1grains, with a front of center of 25.23%. I haven't bought any of these components yet, but I think I am going to start here. My thought is the front of center should actually be higher than the 25.23% because the penetrator insert extends at least an inch in front of the shaft and and then the 315g Ashby is 2 5/8" long. This should put the majority of the weight (333grains(18g for 1" insert extension in front of shaft which is just a guess) up to 3 5/8" in front of the shaft. I am hoping with this weight sitting so far out front that it will move my F.O.C. closer to that 30% mark. One concern I had was whether or not the .300 spine wood suffice for this much weight in front. Since I can't seem to find a shaft spined any stiffer and lighter at this point, I was wondering if (this will probably sound crazy) spraying insulation foam inside the shaft would make it more rigid and recover faster? I have know idea how much it would add weight wise, and it probably would affect F.O.C but i feel it would stiffen the shaft. I guess that will be an experiment i will have to try. What are your thoughts and Opinions on this hypothetical arrow combo I am working at developing? Thanks Nate


----------



## Whitey375

Nate,
IMO, if you are going to run the Ashby head out of any compound you need to use at least a .250 spine arrow. Look at the Gold Tip Big Game 100's, which I think are 10.1 gpi. If you're already at 650+/- another 26-32 grains isn't going to matter.
Also the Kinetic 200's. Not sure of the spine on the UL 22's, but they are light and stiff.


----------



## trimalimb

Thanks I will plug those shafts in and see what I get.


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## trimalimb

LOL, ****** what do you think about the insulation foam idea. I know you can cork a bat with foam and the bat recovers faster allowing you to launch the ball. Do you think that it might help stiffen spine and stabilize the arrow quicker. Probably quiet it as well. Thoughts?


----------



## Whitey375

If you can get it to dry, it may stiffen it up. But I don't think it would be appreciable enough of a difference to make the hassle worth it. Although using some skinny backer rod would do the same thing.


----------



## bbjavelina

trimalimb said:


> LOL, ****** what do you think about the insulation foam idea. I know you can cork a bat with foam and the bat recovers faster allowing you to launch the ball. Do you think that it might help stiffen spine and stabilize the arrow quicker. Probably quiet it as well. Thoughts?


I think the reason for corking is to replace some of the wood with something that is lighter allowing you to get more bat speed. 

If you haven't already, take a look at the Grizzly Sticks offered by Alaskan Bowhunting Supply. First class shafts with a tapered design that gives you more FOC right off the rip. They're available in a number of weights and can be bought in trial packs with one each of different shafts. Come with brass point inserts for higher FOC. Be warned --- this is an expensive road to travel. At least from my perspective.

Best of luck to you.


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## trimalimb

I have spent about two weeks now reading all the posts on this thread and read all of the Ashby reports on Alaska bowhunting. I found the On Target 2 program and downloaded it and have been playing with the numbers on different bow setups that I have and arrows. I believe I have came up with a way to use the internal footing of an arrow to get FOC up to 42% on a 720 grain arrow with the Ashby 315G Broadhead. I won't know for sure if this will work until I get the arrow built, but plugging the data into the On Target 2 program the arrow is coming out perfectly spined. Both the arrows I am using are on the current market and will fit one inside the other. I am currently Deployed to Iraq and will keep you posted on my findings in about 3-4 weeks. If this method with these two arrows work the FOC will be over 35% with arrows over 550grains and 27% with a 360grain arrow. I am purchasing the arrows online now and need time to get home to get things set up and test them. Don't start bashing the idea yet, give me a chance to test this out and see if it will work. The 720G arrow is a 28 inch arrow by the way. I was able to build them on the OT2 program from 27inch to 32inch with Front of centers over 25%. The shorter arrows it was easier to build heavy what I am going to call Super Ultra Extreme Arrows over 35%. Right now, the only hint I am going to give is that in order to get the high front of centers you have to build the arrow from the nock to the point instead of vice versa. 

LOL, I just read my post and I am sure you are all confused with what I am saying. Give me a chance to test this and I will get back to you. I am excited about this "theory", just need to test it out first. Thanks Nate


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## Whitey375

trimalimb said:


> I have spent about two weeks now reading all the posts on this thread and read all of the Ashby reports on Alaska bowhunting. I found the On Target 2 program and downloaded it and have been playing with the numbers on different bow setups that I have and arrows. I believe I have came up with a way to use the internal footing of an arrow to get FOC up to 42% on a 720 grain arrow with the Ashby 315G Broadhead. I won't know for sure if this will work until I get the arrow built, but plugging the data into the On Target 2 program the arrow is coming out perfectly spined. Both the arrows I am using are on the current market and will fit one inside the other. I am currently Deployed to Iraq and will keep you posted on my findings in about 3-4 weeks. If this method with these two arrows work the FOC will be over 35% with arrows over 550grains and 27% with a 360grain arrow. I am purchasing the arrows online now and need time to get home to get things set up and test them. Don't start bashing the idea yet, give me a chance to test this out and see if it will work. The 720G arrow is a 28 inch arrow by the way. I was able to build them on the OT2 program from 27inch to 32inch with Front of centers over 25%. The shorter arrows it was easier to build heavy what I am going to call Super Ultra Extreme Arrows over 35%. Right now, the only hint I am going to give is that in order to get the high front of centers you have to build the arrow from the nock to the point instead of vice versa.
> 
> LOL, I just read my post and I am sure you are all confused with what I am saying. Give me a chance to test this and I will get back to you. I am excited about this "theory", just need to test it out first. Thanks Nate


Sounds good. I would like to see what you came up with. Now hurry home and get it built.


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## rudl

@ all Extreme F.O.C. ers:
I posted before on this thread to explain my project: Building a metal sleeve to increase foc on my FMJ 250 with 125gr tips, which can be easily removed for using 210gr heads. We tried to produce them on CNC with low effort, but ended up ruining the tool. The other way to make this "outsert" is using a metal tube which fits as exact as possible to the shaft.
I found such a tube at onlinemetals.com, but they wont ship the stuff at a reasonable rate overseas.
Would be great if somebody could do me the middleman (i would pay and ship the 6 pc. of tube - 12 inch long to any adress in the USA) if i pay for the effort of going to the post-office and sending them in a large envelope via USPS to my place (paypal)
Thanks!


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## dtrkyman

i found that an old beman 16/64th arrow fits inside my cx arrows perfectly, so i am going to play with differant lengths and epoxy them inside some maxima 350s.

i put one inside an arrow that was full length and got an 800 grain plus finished arrow, man that thing shoots quiet, i am looking to get my finished arrows to around 550 to 600 grains and they should wind up close to 20% foc.


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## Glenn-bob

J-Daddy said:


> I was afraid you'd say that...lol
> I'll probably keep the 350's like they are and shoot them for 3-d and then build something in a 300 spine before hunting season and then play with the 50gr weights on them.


Thought I would add for reference...I'm shooting a 350 Destroyer at 28 3/8" D/L, 70 lbs. D/W with a 27 1/16th inch (bottom of nock throat to end of arrow shaft) Easton Axis 300 spine, with a 50 grn. Easton breakoff brass insert with 125 grn. Slick Trick broadhead. The arrow weighs an at 496 grns. and is spined and shoots perfectly. I think FOC is 16.5%, if I remember correctly. I know your Omen is somewhat more radical but you may be able to use this as a reference.


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## John Wayne

I to would like to see what Nate has come up with. a 550-650g arrow with 35% FOC would what i have been looking for. and Nate, what bow are you planing on shooting these out of?


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## Aggieland

I wish someone who had the $, time and equipment could find out what shaft is the stiffest and the lightest weight. (Everything we are trying to do revolves on that single issue) If we can all come together and find the perfect light weight shaft that is super stiff we can all branch out from there and decide on what insert, broad head, fletching, nock, shaft length and bow poundage we need to fit our particular setups. 

Personally I and I feel many others want to stay at 650 total grains arrow weight or less with the highest FOC as possible. Right now I have the .250 spine Easton FMJ Dangerous Game arrows I have 260 grain broad-heads so the insert I have to use to keep my spine stiff enough is the 16 grain incerts. My foc is around 17-18 have not measured it yet but the total arrow shaft is like 766 grains.. 

I hear we have the Gold tip shafts now that are stiff and lighter than the Dangerous game shafts and i hear Alaska bow hunting supply has something new out but they don't give very good numbers. Just a random range of arrow weight so who knows..


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## The Arrow Guru

K I have read through 14 pages and I just can't keep reading, so if I cover the same ground I am sorry. I am in full agreement as to what you guys and Dr Ashby are saying about the effectiveness of EFOC arrows. However I am a South Eastern deer hunter that hunts an occasional hog and goes on a DIY elk trip every two years. The conversation has surrounded the very extreme and you guys are building arrows that will kill elephants and cape buffalo. Once you are through a deer, there is no more need for penetration. So in light of all that a couple questions. Do you find that Archers Atvantage figures the FOC fairly correctly? Because if so I can use a 27" ACC 3-60 with a PDP insert/weight combo to get a 55 grain insert and a 125 grain head. I would end up with an arrow with almost 15% FOC ( according to AA) have a finished weight of 482 gr and will be traveling 270 fps out of a 28" 70# carbon element. This should whack anything in the lower 48 including the biggest hogs, goats, sheep, elk and whitetails.


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## The Arrow Guru

Hmm thread killer ;(


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## Whitey375

bigrnyrs said:


> K I have read through 14 pages and I just can't keep reading, so if I cover the same ground I am sorry. I am in full agreement as to what you guys and Dr Ashby are saying about the effectiveness of EFOC arrows. However I am a South Eastern deer hunter that hunts an occasional hog and goes on a DIY elk trip every two years. The conversation has surrounded the very extreme and you guys are building arrows that will kill elephants and cape buffalo. Once you are through a deer, there is no more need for penetration. So in light of all that a couple questions. Do you find that Archers Atvantage figures the FOC fairly correctly? Because if so I can use a 27" ACC 3-60 with a PDP insert/weight combo to get a 55 grain insert and a 125 grain head. I would end up with an arrow with almost 15% FOC ( according to AA) have a finished weight of 482 gr and will be traveling 270 fps out of a 28" 70# carbon element. This should whack anything in the lower 48 including the biggest hogs, goats, sheep, elk and whitetails.


I don't have any of the programs, but from what I understand they are pretty close. Easiest thing to do, and cheapest when you're starting to play with this stuff, is order the field point variety pack from Alaska Bowhunting Supply. Then take one arrow and set it up "normally", tune your bow with that arrow. Then start adding point weight until it starts showing weak, back off 10-20 grains, and double check with broadheads. 
As to building arrows for buffalo or elephant, while some guys in' here would be close to being enough. But the reason it seems to me most guys are building these arrows, is because they want to make sure they can take pretty much any shot they want on deer and hogs.


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## John Wayne

What i am looking for in an arrow is one that will penatrate the body of the animal that i am shooting. Yes almost any arrow and head combo will do that if things work out just right. if you only hit skin and go inbetween the ribs then it does not take much to get a full pass through. But what happens when you do hit a rib, or 2 or 4? what about a deer that turns and the shoulder is now in the way and the arrow is already on it's way? Things happen that we can not controle. Why do people hunt dangerous game with more then enough gun or bow to kill 2 animals? Because things happen and not every shot is perfect. I am building an arrow that will give me the most return when that happenes. Here are 2 examples that i have posted on this thread. 

#1 I took a really big body buck last year at about 20yards. it was a perfact quarting away angle that passed through both lungs and cut the top of the heart also, and then exited the off side shoulder. In all that i did not hit a single bone, not even a rib. everything worked out perfect. this shot would have killed him with a 30# bow and any normal head. 

#2 later last season i took a nice 100# pig. the only problem is that he truned as i shot and i hit the front leg dead center just above the elbow. Even with the 1.5" silverflames that i was shooting i still received a complete pass through. The arrow cut the main leg bone in half and then 2 ribs going in and 1 on the way out. I hit the heart and both lungs again. I do not beleive that this recovery would have been as easy as watching him fall if i have been shooting a different set up. an in reallity i think it would have been a lost animal. 

now i am not preaching or telling any one what to shot. Shot what you feel comfortable with. Shot what is most accurte for you. This is what i shot and why. I like the way it works. I love this thread and it has changed the way i think about arrows and peneratration. 

I am looking forward to this season to get out there and just spening time in God country. Be safe, shot straight, and good draging. 

Levi


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## rudl

Levi,
you shoot silverflames and FMJ arrows. German kinetics advertises their radius on the inside of the ferrule for centering the broadhead.
Do you use broadhead-adapter-rings or does the carbonedge withstand the pressure when hitting the target?

Thanks!


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## DeepFried

Im sittin at 15% FOC with a total arrow weight of 398 grs... :heh:


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## John Wayne

Rudl. i do not use an adapter ring. I have had a few of the tips bend out but only when i hit something hard. But i have never had one bend under normal target shoting or while shooting at an animal. last year i did add a short 1" pc of alumin arrow to the end of a few of mine, like they talk about in the DIY forum. Of the few i have done i have not had any problems out of. So this is an option if you are thinking that you might need more beef. 

As to the Carbon edge, i also use the little stone that comes with the FMJ arrows and it grinds away some of the carbon edge where it looks like the bevel area is touching the alumin outside and the carbon at the same time. kinda of like a v in a V. I hope this is clearer than mud. 

Levi


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## rudl

Guess i got it.
Thanks a lot!



John Wayne said:


> Rudl. i do not use an adapter ring. I have had a few of the tips bend out but only when i hit something hard. But i have never had one bend under normal target shoting or while shooting at an animal. last year i did add a short 1" pc of alumin arrow to the end of a few of mine, like they talk about in the DIY forum. Of the few i have done i have not had any problems out of. So this is an option if you are thinking that you might need more beef.
> 
> As to the Carbon edge, i also use the little stone that comes with the FMJ arrows and it grinds away some of the carbon edge where it looks like the bevel area is touching the alumin outside and the carbon at the same time. kinda of like a v in a V. I hope this is clearer than mud.
> 
> Levi


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## Roskoes

I have kinda wondered about taking a relatively light arrow, like a Flatliner, and using brass inserts along with a very heavy broadhead to get the FOC up there - but without making the arrow much heavier than, say 420 grains. Should fly and penetrate better than a 420 Axis with a regular 100 grain tip.


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## Baybuzzard

Hey fellas,

Been reading this thread off & on since it started. Have enjoyed it immensely. Also read the comments on FOC in "The Nuts & Bolts of Archery". He made the comment that going above, say 18-20 % FOC, causes the arrow to drop faster, due to nose-diving. Not sure I subscribe to that theory. I think it would be more due to the heavier weight of the arrow. This has probably already been discussed somewhere in this thread, but it has slipped my mind. Any comments?

Anyway, I've finally decided to try higher FOC out, and have purchased a dozen Gold Tip Velocity Hunter 300's. I came up with a method of increasing the FOC by using drill bits. A 1-1 1/2 " section of .245" drill bit should weigh somewhere around 100 grains, and gives a good snug fit inside the shaft. (Note- this would get pricey if you had to purchase the bits, but I have bunch of old ones laying around) The plan is to put a dab of paste epoxy in the end of the shaft, slip the section of drill bit in, followed by the insert. Instead of using 100 grains of drill bit, I went ahead and ordered the 100 grain brass inserts, and will use about 30 grains of drill bit, for a total point weight of 230 grains. Arrow shaft length will be 29 ". 2" Duravnes. According to the Gold Tip calculator, my combination will weigh 503 grains and have a FOC of about 19.4 %.

My concern is if I might be over-spined with this combination, as I shoot an old 99 model PSE Nova with Vector 4 wheels, 28.5" draw length, @ 62-65 pounds. I shoot fingers, and have stuck with this bow for the smooth draw cycle. I also want to note that I believe that by using a section of drill bit inside the shaft behind the insert, it will shorten the effective shaft length by that much (since the arrow will lose that section of flexibility) and in turn effectively increase the spine even further. Thoughts anyone?


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## trimalimb

I finally had a chance to build and shoot my first arrow and I think it is a winner!!!!!!!! The arrow weighs in at 503 grains and has a FOC of 31.99%!!!!!!! I built this arrow to shoot out of my Elite Fire. It flies true out of my Fire. The following is how I achieved such a high FOC. I used the OT2 program to help me design this arrow. The Build Point to Nock: 250G Field Tip/ Victory 43G Penetrator Tip / internal footing 3.5 inch Victory VAP V1 .300 Spine 8.9GPI total 31.15G / Bulldog Collar 2.5G / 26 inch High Country Carbon Revolution Speed Pro Max 001 .320 Spine 5.5GPI total 143G / 3 Gateway Rayzr Feathers 3.5G total /Bulldog Collar 2.5G / Nocturnal Lighted Nock 21G Total components weight 250+43+31.15+2.5+143+3.5+2.5+21= 496.65Grain plus glue. Finished Arrow 503G. 31.99% FOC Pictures in next post


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## trimalimb

View attachment 1160135
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View attachment 1160136
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## trimalimb

I figured FOC using the AMO method 1 (B/L-.5)x100 (21.625/26.375-.5)x100=31.99% FOC


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## wyetterp

Has anyone messed around with the Ht-1 w/the new in/outserts? It seems with a good heavy head these would be great. 

I curious because these seems to being a rising star in dimension. Also, are there any better inserts or weights that work w/the HT-1?

This is still my favorite thread! Sorry if I let any info slip by me in the thread.


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## The_Lone_Archer

Interesting thread - I'm still playing with Zwickeys. With a 27.5" 400 Powerflight shaft, 3 2.5" rubberfletches and standard insert, an Eskilite produces a FOC of 15%, an Eskimo a FOC of 17% and a Delta a FOC of 19%. My personal favorites are right now the Eskimo as it groups best for me. And it still shots straight - my slow 60lb 28.5" RazorEdge uses the first pin from 10 to 25 yards and that covers 80% of my hunting. The next addition will be Tophead insert/outsert with 60grs made from stainless steel. That should push the Eskimo 2 across the 20% FOC line and kick the arrow weight from 427 to 466grs. Might try a heavy Tusker Concorde 190grs 2.75" and Aztec 200grs 2.5" yet. I guess that as far as my bows can go right now in therms of practical arrow weight, as my old 60lb Bear isn't a speed demon either. Currently I'm looking for some 150-175 fieldpoints, right now I use 145gr tophead combo points with a 17% FOC to match the Eskimo and will need something heavier for the Tusker heads. And I might watch the spin, currently use a #400 spin that did still great in a bareshaft test today with a Delta, but with 190-200grs I might need a #340 spin.


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## Nameless Hunter

Take a 29" 2315 aluminum arrow and combine with a length 2117.
The OD of a 2117 is 0.001" smaller than the ID of a 2315, which would seem to make it a good fit.
If 14" 2117 is glued into the front end of the 2315 it yields a total weight of around 777 grains with a 150 gr broadhead.
Anybody know how to figure out the FOC without having to make one?


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## ACCMan

bigrnyrs said:


> K I have read through 14 pages and I just can't keep reading, so if I cover the same ground I am sorry. I am in full agreement as to what you guys and Dr Ashby are saying about the effectiveness of EFOC arrows. However I am a South Eastern deer hunter that hunts an occasional hog and goes on a DIY elk trip every two years. The conversation has surrounded the very extreme and you guys are building arrows that will kill elephants and cape buffalo. Once you are through a deer, there is no more need for penetration. So in light of all that a couple questions. Do you find that Archers Atvantage figures the FOC fairly correctly? Because if so I can use a 27" ACC 3-60 with a PDP insert/weight combo to get a 55 grain insert and a 125 grain head. I would end up with an arrow with almost 15% FOC ( according to AA) have a finished weight of 482 gr and will be traveling 270 fps out of a 28" 70# carbon element. This should whack anything in the lower 48 including the biggest hogs, goats, sheep, elk and whitetails.


I am using ACC 3-60's, 27" with Flitemate adapters, glue on 160gr VPA Terminators. Total arrow weight is 492 grains and FOC is 19.5%. I removed the unibushings to help FOC and going to feathers would help also, but still shooting blazers. They fly like darts.


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## Stab 'em

Well, I made some 'extreme as I could get the FOC to keep a correct spine and add lots of weight to the shaft so I could get a pass through in a buffalo arrows'! My setup is a Limbsaver DZ-30 set at 70# and a 30" draw. The arrows are made with Trophy Ridge Blast 300 shafts using a Carbon Express CX Edge Hunter steel insert in them (46 grains) and a 125 grain Hellrazor broadhead. They weigh in at 520 grains and chrono at 272 fps. The AMO standard for figuring FOC calculates to 15.51%. The 30 yard shot resulted in a 95% pass through. The arrow sailed through the chest cavity slightly quartering away and blowing a hole through the off side shoulder blade, but the fletchings hung up on the skin and flopped around until it was bucked out with the buffalo's last dance.


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## Aggieland

trimalimb said:


> I figured FOC using the AMO method 1 (B/L-.5)x100 (21.625/26.375-.5)x100=31.99% FOC


Trimalimb: can you use the ashby FOC method and tell me what you come up with please? I have a 530 grain arrow with 25.25% Foc right now using the ashby method.. 


(1) Measure shaft length; bottom of the nock’s throat to the 
most rearward portion of the broadhead taper. 

(2) With tip mounted, determine the balance point by balancing 
the arrow on a knife edge. Mark this balance point. 
(3) Measure balance point distance; from the bottom of the 
knock’s throat to the balance point. 
(4) Divide balance point distance by shaft length. This gives 
the decimal equivalent of the balance point’s percentage 
relative to shaft length. 
(5) From this quotient subtract 0.50, the decimal equivalent 
of 50%. 
(6) Convert the resultant decimal fraction to percent by 
multiplying by 100 (or simply moving the decimal point two 
places to the right). This gives the percent FOC.


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## Don_Go

*late to the party*

I've read this whole thread, but did not memorize it, so pardon me if I miss or repeat something.

I'm getting ready to go back to Africa for cape buffalo, and want a 750+ grain arrow with extreme FOC or Ultra extreme FOC. This can be tough to achieve.

I've been using Axis ST 340s with standard 125 grain tips for elk, and these are almost indestructible, so I just screwed a 315 gr head on my 28.5" shafts with std HIT inserts to see how it spined. Since I'm shooting a 73#, 29" Bowtech 101st Airborne, this was a fairly extreme step. Shot fine. 

Then I got some Axis ST 300s, added a 100 gr brass insert from 3Rivers archery, and shot them full length bareshaft with a 315 gr head. Grouped fine.

Then I added 1" of stainless steel .049-wall tubing as an external footer (added another 100 grains). The OD on this tubing matches the OD of the ABS Ashby heads I plan to use. These seem OK bareshaft at 32.5". I can rotate the knock in 90 degree steps and it does not move or spread the group, so the dynamic spine seems reasonable. 

I am going to cut them down to 28.5" to ensure I have good spine, then fletch half of them with feathers. This should give me some nearly indestructible 834 grain arrows with 30.8% FOC. Testing at all ranges, conditions, etc will take a while.

I'm also going to try to taper the external footer to get the weight down just a bit. I like the 3/8 OD footer at front to match the ferrule and brace it as much as possible. 

Testing on cape buff carcases in 2004 showed that the ferrule/insert/shaft interface was likely to fail on quartering shots or shots into the scapula. These were heavier shafts with more normal FOC of around 15%. The shafts were Carbon Tech Safari Rhino shafts with case-hardened steel adapters and 190 gr Grizzlie grandes. I had one Grizzlie bend on the scapula.

I may dust off my 2004 80#x30" Bowtech Allegiance and give it a whirl. I was getting 96 ft-lb KE out of it with 880 grain arrows in 2006. The 101st gets 86 ft-lbs KE at 29" draw. Since I know I'll be standing up the 30" draw is not too much to handle - even though I ain't getting any younger.


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## Don_Go

Here's a pic of my prototype external footer. Hope to find a machinist to taper it.


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## Don_Go

Rather than machine down a section of tubing (no bites on finding a machinist), I thought I'd try stacking layers of aluminum external footing. 

So I put a section of 2.4"x2016, 1"x 2215, .25"x 2413. The 2413 is a press fit on the 2215, so I'm not sure if enough glue stays in to hold it.










This gives one layer of support .2" past the 3 rivers 100 grain brass insert, 2 layers past the threaded section of the insert and a full 3/8" diameter end section that matches the OD of the Alaska Bowhunting Suppply Ashby broadhead.


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## Don_Go

Picture of final footing design with Ashby Broadhead. Arrow weighs 780 grains with 315 gr BH attached. Final FOC was just short of ULTRA EXTREME FOC: 29.3%

Can't wait to try it on a Cape Buffalo.


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## John Wayne

Don Go, that look like a very creative way to do the external footing. Let us know how it shoots for you. also which bow are you shooting it out of? I am still looking for higher FOC and still be about to shot it out of an 80# bow. I can only hit the 25% mark with the quest arrows and a 260g head. i ahve not shot this yet after i get my bow back and tuned. Need to get a larger hole bisket for the quest arrows. but i hope to have one soon and get them tried out. But they do shot great out of my 101st set at 70# and28" draw. 

on a side note, i took a buck this saturday with a steep down hill shot, do to the stand height and the drop off below me the deer was about 25yards away from the tree, and close to 45feet below me. The arrow entered high in the chest, breaking 2 ribs, exited out the lower chest breaking 2 more ribs, and then on through tthe leg bone and completely busted that leg up bad, sattered it in to about 20pcs that i had to pick out of the meat, and then exited the leg about 4" above the elbow. after all this the fletching got hung up in the leg and the arrow was broken off at the wrap, about 4" This was with the 1.5" Silverflame XL, This is the arrow in my sig.


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## Don_Go

Here's a report on some testing to destruction of the triple external footing. I moved it to "Arrows and Strings" and started a new thread to be a little less cumbersome. I'll be doing some more testing in a couple of weeks.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1607099

This testing was done with my 81# Allegience, since my 101st is awaiting repair. (Ordered cams to repair a dry fire.)


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## Aggieland

Has anyone looked at these shafts, (http://www.3riversarchery.com/Arrow...ammer+Head_c58_s158_p210_iCS100X_product.html) they have a sort of built in footing and it increases FOC.. Its traditional wood grain but i'm auctually going trad and looking at ways of getting the highest FOC Possible.. Right now I can't decide what direction to head. I know if I use the Victory VAP shafts and either their stainless outsert or the new easton incert that will fit these shafts I can get some pretty outstanding FOC shooting a longbow. But then again having wood grain covered arrows would be nice to carry as well, so thats what has brought these shafts listed above to my attention.. its going to be hard to figure out what is the best move to acheve EFOC without spending some cash and trying things.


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## Don_Go

I've read reports here that those outserts are very weak. Consider using the 100 grain brass inserts from 3 Rivers. They are stronger than the 50/75 grain HIT inserts from Easton.


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## dtrkyman

i would contact three rivers directly and get some first hand info.


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## Don_Go

I don't have first hand info on the outserts, but I do have a lot of experience with the 100 grain brass inserts from 3 rivers. They have proven superior in toughness to both the aluminum and brass inserts from Easton. 

For the absolute toughest solution, use an aluminum external footer as well, that extends 1/2" past the brass insert.


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## Spurlucky

I realize this is a *really* old thread, but I needed this info to better understand how set up my own arrows. My current FOC (balance point _front of center_, which I did not know exactlly what that was) is just over 7% & from what I gather from the easton website & their posted formula is too low an FOC for a hunting arrow. An excellent education, back to the drawing board.

From Easton:
"AMO-Standard F.O.C. balance formula:
F.O.C. % = 100 x (A-L/2)
L

L= Correct Arrow Length-Distance from bottom of nock groove to end of shaft
A=Distance from bottom of nock groove to finished arrow balance position (includes weight of point [+ insert], nock system and fletching)
F.O.C can also be calculated by using Easton's Shaft Selector."


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## Aggieland

Ordered me some Victory Nano Force aka Victory VAP arrows in 340 spine.. Going to use the new 110 grain insert and put a 275 grain head on that baby.. Should be an EFOC Monster. 

Oh yeah the shafts are 7.5 gpi.. I bet I will be over or possibly way over 30% foc..


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## lovetohunt93

Aggieland said:


> Ordered me some Victory Nano Force aka Victory VAP arrows in 340 spine.. Going to use the new 110 grain insert and put a 275 grain head on that baby.. Should be an EFOC Monster.
> 
> Oh yeah the shafts are 7.5 gpi.. I bet I will be over or possibly way over 30% foc..


Wow, thats gonna be sweet! That is gonna be one heck of an arrow set up. Whats the total arrow weight gonna be? 600+?


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## bullfisher

Aggieland said:


> Ordered me some Victory Nano Force aka Victory VAP arrows in 340 spine.. Going to use the new 110 grain insert and put a 275 grain head on that baby.. Should be an EFOC Monster.
> 
> Oh yeah the shafts are 7.5 gpi.. I bet I will be over or possibly way over 30% foc..


Dang aggie, thats a big noggin for a 340. Aren't you shooting 80lbs?


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## Aggieland

Im sorry fellas I meant to post I was using a 110 grain insert and a 175 grain head. would stll be 285 grains up front.. I still have my carbon element but now I have fallen in love with the long bow. Shooting this setup out of a 65# thunderchild made by big jim.. should be a good setup.


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## henro

I'm thinking about building some VAP .250 spine @ 28" with a 150gr head for my Monster to get some higher FOC. Are there any other options than the Penetrator inserts? I've read nothing but bad reviews about them bending. I'm looking for something like a 75gr brass insert but read the HIT inserts won't fit either. I don't want the deep-six rps inserts as I want to shoot a different head than what they have available.


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## Don_Go

I think you have expressed all the options...and I agree about the Penetrators. If they made them of titanium they might last. You have expressed why I won't go smaller than HIT ID.


----------



## henro

Decided I'm going to shoot the VAP 250 V1s and use the 92gr SS inserts with 150gr heads. With my wraps and nockturnals for hunting I'll be spot on spine wise at 27.75" material length and 72lbs. I should be getting about 18.5% FOC with a total arrow weight around 564gr. OT2 estimates my speed at 267fps. That would put the KE @ 89.19% and MO @ .668!


----------



## The Arrow Guru

27" HT-2 350's, 90 grain insert, 125 grain broad head, 6" wrap and 3 X 3" Fusions. 478 grains total weight, 18.5% FOC. So far nothing has stopped them. Straight through every thing!


----------



## dtrkyman

just though of the high country arrow, if the spine of the 6.2 is stiff enough that thing would run some crazy foc as light as the shaft is.

anyone know the spine deflection of those shafts?


----------



## Evanryan

*Yes you can*



bagel77 said:


> you see I was getting all excited about those shafts....then you said you need to use a g-nock. My problem is I shoot fobs and last I checked I can't use g nocks.....F%&K


 Micro Fobs!


----------



## Evanryan

*Penetrator inserts*



henro said:


> I'm thinking about building some VAP .250 spine @ 28" with a 150gr head for my Monster to get some higher FOC. Are there any other options than the Penetrator inserts? I've read nothing but bad reviews about them bending. I'm looking for something like a 75gr brass insert but read the HIT inserts won't fit either. I don't want the deep-six rps inserts as I want to shoot a different head than what they have available.


 The new Stainless Steel inserts have solved that bending issue. they weigh around 100grains which should be great for increased FOC


----------



## SouthShoreRat

We have had quite a few of our customers request heavy inserts this last year so we are looking into expanding our EFOC Components and we are currently talking with some manufactures on different ideas for heavy components. If we get anywhere I will post it up here.


----------



## henro

Might as well update this since my arrow build is done now. Total arrow weight for the Victory VAP250 V1 is 544.7gr with 27" carbon to carbon. I'm using the 9/32" SS inserts(89.5gr) with 145gr heads. Even with FFP-360s(7.7gr), a 5" wrap(3.1gr) and a G-Nock Nockturnal(12.3gr) measured AMO FOC is 24.56%!


----------



## Don_Go

Let us know how that SS outsert works out when it hits bone.


----------



## Strotherized

High FOC's are a no brainer for the folks that enjoy accuracy, forgiveness oh yeah and penetration. The higher the foc the more leverage your fletch has on the shaft period. 20% plus is where you will see great things. Find your foc then pinch your shaft and move you nock end left to right now move it farther toward the tip end and apply movement. Which offers less tip movement?


----------



## ontarget7

Strotherized said:


> High FOC's are a no brainer for the folks that enjoy accuracy, forgiveness oh yeah and penetration. The higher the foc the more leverage your fletch has on the shaft period. 20% plus is where you will see great things. Find your foc then pinch your shaft and move you nock end left to right now move it farther toward the tip end and apply movement. Which offers less tip movement?


That's odd because I enjoy accuracy but only shoot between 12% and 15% FOC with zero issues out to 100 + yards. I have played with 20% and higher and never found it to be more accurate.


----------



## Don_Go

High FOC may make an arrow a bit more forgiving to errors, but it really does not help accuracy if all else is correct. I think it does help penetration after it hits an animal -especially if it hits bone.


----------



## Strotherized

ontarget7 said:


> That's odd because I enjoy accuracy but only shoot between 12% and 15% FOC with zero issues out to 100 + yards. I have played with 20% and higher and never found it to be more accurate.


What's accuracy in your opinion? If you would like me to prove it come to Kansas and I will be happy to. Or just go to a local 80 meter shoot.


----------



## Strotherized

ontarget7 said:


> That's odd because I enjoy accuracy but only shoot between 12% and 15% FOC with zero issues out to 100 + yards. I have played with 20% and higher and never found it to be more accurate
> 
> I can't wait for this one .


----------



## Strotherized

Freedom from error=? 
Forgiveness is what?
On an average over drastic weather conditions high foc does what?
While running high foc what can you do to the back end of your shaft to improve consistency dramatically?
Consistency=?
When a given object offers less movement at ANY point that=?
Shall I continue? Post count does not equal IQ I can assure.


----------



## ontarget7

Strotherized said:


> What's accuracy in your opinion? If you would like me to prove it come to Kansas and I will be happy to. Or just go to a local 80 meter shoot.


I believe my standard for accuracy is higher than most and I would enjoy shooting 80 meters with you. I'm sure we would have a great time


----------



## Strotherized

ontarget7 said:


> I believe my standard for accuracy is higher than most and I would enjoy shooting 80 meters with you. I'm sure we would have a great time


Well IMO if you dont have the know how or the ability to bare shaft 50 yards plus you have no business trying to prove FOC will or won't work, not saying you can or not but many claimed tuners have zero clue how to even begin to bare shaft period. Now that being said I know for certain that I can back my claims up all day long on paper, in person, on a shooter. Drop your 12% foc setup on your lizard with a 20 mph side wind and I will run oh let say my 26% setup for giggles, at that point maybe you should just stick with a 40 yard shot just see if you can hit the paper holding "on". Your in the same categorie as fob haters that claim they don't work. Sorry to lay it down but I will be damned to have the time I have put into this subject thrown away buy some guy claiming I'm wrong. No you won't see a difference shot to shot in your back yard in the same weather condition but overall high doc will far out perform a dramatically less foc. I'm done with my rant.


----------



## ontarget7

Strotherized said:


> High FOC's are a no brainer for the folks that enjoy accuracy, forgiveness oh yeah and penetration. The higher the foc the more leverage your fletch has on the shaft period. 20% plus is where you will see great things. Find your foc then pinch your shaft and move you nock end left to right now move it farther toward the tip end and apply movement. Which offers less tip movement?





Strotherized said:


> Well IMO if you dont have the know how or the ability to bare shaft 50 yards plus you have no business trying to prove FOC will or won't work, not saying you can or not but many claimed tuners have zero clue how to even begin to bare shaft period. Now that being said I know for certain that I can back my claims up all day long on paper, in person, on a shooter. Drop your 12% foc setup on your lizard with a 20 mph side wind and I will run oh let say my 26% setup for giggles, at that point maybe you should just stick with a 40 yard shot just see if you can hit the paper holding "on". Your in the same categorie as fob haters that claim they don't work. Sorry to lay it down but I will be damned to have the time I have put into this subject thrown away buy some guy claiming I'm wrong. No you won't see a difference shot to shot in your back yard in the same weather condition but overall high doc will far out perform a dramatically less foc. I'm done with my rant.


WOW!!!!!!!! You blew this way out of proportion bro. You said in your own words it is a no brainer to shoot a higher FOC . I simply am saying I do just fine with a 12% to 15% set up and really have not seen much benefit from a 20% + FOC. Ya there might be an occasion where it is extremely windy and the higher FOC takes the advantage but for the majority of the time I would have to disagree. Spine is way more critical than a higher FOC. Glad you are done with your rant


----------



## Strotherized

The point is Shane not every archer on here hunts mule deer and understand shooting in wind, many archers here can benefit leaps and bounds from a mechanical advantage, high foc is always more consistent. Not a great idea to jump in with a "that's funny cause I" attitude with me, I take that as you are certain I'm wrong. If your looking for an advantage that offers forgiveness in the shot consider high foc. I hope this helps an archer out. Spine is another subject that I'm not interested In Debating with you Shane. It's post like these that people can get a lot from but make me hate to post as I know I will have to defend my claim cause someone always knows more. If I'm wrong show me where and I will be all ears to learn more. If I didn't post after your last post that would have maybe shown I didn't believe in what I claimed.


----------



## ontarget7

Strotherized said:


> The point is Shane not every archer on here hunts mule deer and understand shooting in wind, many archers here can benefit leaps and bounds from a mechanical advantage, high foc is always more consistent. Not a great idea to jump in with a "that's funny cause I" attitude with me, I take that as you are certain I'm wrong. If your looking for an advantage that offers forgiveness in the shot consider high foc. I hope this helps an archer out. Spine is another subject that I'm not interested In Debating with you Shane. It's post like these that people can get a lot from but make me hate to post as I know I will have to defend my claim cause someone always knows more. If I'm wrong show me where and I will be all ears to learn more. If I didn't post after your last post that would have maybe shown I didn't believe in what I claimed.


You are very touchy bro if you thought that was an attitude. Either way I would not pass up an opportunity to shoot with you if I am ever in your area. Sure it would be a blast
Not to sure why you feel you are so superior and to big to discuss something ? We are all trying to help each other out and the reason why I mentioned spine. Most don't think about it when you jump up your tip weight


----------



## henro

Don_Go said:


> Let us know how that SS outsert works out when it hits bone.


I'll be sure to post the results.


----------



## Whitey375

Back up


----------



## henro

Wanted to point out an error I made measuring my FOC. It's 20.75% after rechecking it. I think it will still be "sufficient".


----------



## Gabriel McCall

Just some ideas to add... First, I love the idea of using a set screw. Second, I think you are over complicating things because I set screw can be installed through the front of the insert can't it? I mean it has the same threads as the tip right? I really don't know because I resorted to using lead and shoved it down the arrow from the nock end and followed it with 2 grains of epoxy and shoved that down in with waded paper towel to make a fiberglass like plug. I didn't think about using screws. DUH! (I've only been back into archery for 4 months and the last time before that was when I was 11.

My other thing to add is that a 5% FOC arrow is going to be WAY less stable than a 21.4% FOC arrow so of course it is not going to fly as well. The high FOC might be compensating for a very slight form or tuning issue and that's why it is not impacting low right with the low FOC arrow. The high FOC arrow is going to recover from archer's paradox almost instantly while the low FOC arrow will struggle with it for most of it's flight at only 5% FOC. Therefore a very slight form or tuning issue could result in the low right phenomenon and the high FOC will compensate very well for both of those types of issues. Many variables to look at here, not just static and dynamic spine. Just because it looks like the spine difference is causing the issue does not mean that is the actual cause. Why else would the low FOC arrow impact lower? I'd say it is loosing efficiency throughout it's flight to a slight tuning issue and is not flying straight to the target, but fishtailing or porpesing. 

My $0.02


----------



## henro

ttt


----------



## Gabriel McCall

henro said:


> ttt



What does that mean anyways!?!


----------



## henro

To The Top.


----------



## Gabriel McCall

henro said:


> To The Top.


Still dunno what that means. =0( Sorry, I was raised by my grandmother. LOL!


----------



## henro

Gabriel McCall said:


> Still dunno what that means. =0( Sorry, I was raised by my grandmother. LOL!


Ummm ok? It's something people post to bring a thread back to the top of the recent posts list to resurrect the discussion with people. Now let's keep this back on topic please.


----------



## Gabriel McCall

Okay. I just looked at the VAP 250 from Victory. It looks like it is very lightweight but will be stiff enough to use a 200gn tip even with 70 lbs.

Also, Easton says that for every 25gns above 100gns you need to look at the charts as if you were shooting 3 lbs more draw weight. That means that if I want to shoot 70lbs and have a 205gn tip I want to look at the chart as if I were shooting 85lb draw. Why? Because it is 5 gns more than 100gns heavier and so I make the adjustment 15lbs more not just 10lbs more because I want stiff arrows and don't want to just get by with the minimum.


----------



## The Arrow Guru

Black Eagle Rampage 350's, 27" cut to cut, 50 grain brass hit insert, 100 grain point, x nock, 3 blazer vanes and a blazer wrap. 406 grains 15% FOC. Pretty good for a total arrow weight just above 400 grains.


----------



## Gabriel McCall

bigrnyrs said:


> Black Eagle Rampage 350's, 27" cut to cut, 50 grain brass hit insert, 100 grain point, x nock, 3 blazer vanes and a blazer wrap. 406 grains 15% FOC. Pretty good for a total arrow weight just above 400 grains.


Cool thanks! These look like decent numbers for arrows that are relatively affordable.


----------



## mtsooner

I read EVERY page of this lengthy thread!!!! Whew! So, I have been considering shooting FOBs lately. From what I've read, are most getting superior performance from feathers, vanes, what??? I love feathers...always will, but FOBs seem to be gaining in popularity, and you can't deny the data or videos being put out there (well, I guess you can, if your really stubborn).

So, with that being said, has anyone created a +20% FOC setup using FOBs?


----------



## bbjavelina

mtsooner said:


> I read EVERY page of this lengthy thread!!!! Whew! So, I have been considering shooting FOBs lately. From what I've read, are most getting superior performance from feathers, vanes, what??? I love feathers...always will, but FOBs seem to be gaining in popularity, and you can't deny the data or videos being put out there (well, I guess you can, if your really stubborn).
> 
> So, with that being said, has anyone created a +20% FOC setup using FOBs?


I've never even actually seen an FOB. What do they weigh? Is it more than feathers?

I wish you well, but I think feathers were invented for flying. Plastic, maybe not so much.


----------



## mtsooner

bbjavelina said:


> feathers were invented for flying. Plastic, maybe not so much.


Metal, composite and carbon, weren't really invented for bending and causing projectiles to fly either, but they do a pretty darn good job of it. Believe me, I like traditional and natural equipment MUCH more than fabricated material, but I use whatever works for me to put an animal down as fast as possible. I think FOBs are a fantastic idea! I just want to know if they'll work well with a heavy arrow and an extreme FOC setup, and if anyone can has done one and can give me a good example.



bbjavelina said:


> What do they weigh?


I think the weight is something like 25g, but maybe someone can clarify that.


----------



## Gabriel McCall

mtsooner said:


> Metal, composite and carbon, weren't really invented for bending and causing projectiles to fly either, but they do a pretty darn good job of it. Believe me, I like traditional and natural equipment MUCH more than fabricated material, but I use whatever works for me to put an animal down as fast as possible. I think FOBs are a fantastic idea! I just want to know if they'll work well with a heavy arrow and an extreme FOC setup, and if anyone can has done one and can give me a good example.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the weight is something like 25g, but maybe someone can clarify that.


I don't know how much they weigh, but I will venture a guess and say a LOT. The thing about a FOB is that it is unconventional, but has much much more steering capabilities because of the sheer amount of surface area and the intelligent usage of the phenomena called boundary layer effect. Essentially, the FOB has the potential in theory to work better with huge amounts of separated flows and high viscosity creating drag on the arrow. However, I can't shoot them with any of my bows so I can't tell you definitively whether or not they are better. They should spin more consistently and act in a more consistent manner in wind, but I'm only basing that on what the physics look like to me. Basically, the amount of surface area that is at a 90 degree angle at any one time to wind from any angle is seriously reduced and the outer ring shields wind from the three inner 'wings' inside it so the arrow can spin freely in a heavy cross wind. This, coupled with even just a High FOC would, in theory, make a very wind resistant arrow which is what I was after in the first place. My bows will not shoot fobs though because the center shot is too close to the riser. =0(

One could, in theory, even use them to slightly stiffen the dynamic spine of the shaft without compromising the balance between front of center and center of pressure because the small tunnels are going to increase drag.


----------



## wyetterp

Any one plan on messing around with injexions. I wonder how much they could handle. 

I just which someone would roll out a heavy (SS) in/outsert like trophy ridge used on the crush's. 

The injexions seem like a great efoc platform.


----------



## Kaizoku

The problem with the injexions, last I checked they only go down to .330 spine. Most people are shooting a .350/.340 with 100gr tips and standard inserts and barely being spined correctly. So that doesn't leave much meat on the bone. Plus that deep six stuff is for the birds.


----------



## wyetterp

Yeah I just noticed they only went down to .330 spine. I was assuming they had a .300..? That sucks. 

I agree the deep six stuff being for the birds.


----------



## Jimspur

Would I be underspined with a .340 spine Gold Tip 75/95, 28" long from nock groove to end of carbon, with a 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain broadhead?
These will be shot at 28" draw, 62 lbs. draw weight. Bow IBO is 308 fps. 3 vanes are 24 grains.
Nock is 12 grains. Arrows will be around 482 grains and 18% FOC.
Thanks, Jim


----------



## Jimspur

ttt


----------



## muddyfuzzy

i'm certainly not in the efoc range but i am shooting high foc. my current set-up is a black eagle deep impact 350 cut at 28", firenock outsert, 125 grain rfa razorhawk and 2" gateway feathers with rh helical. the finished arrow weight is 440 grains and yields an foc of 16.67%. the high foc arrows hook up faster than the same set-up shooting 2" fusions @ 14.5%, i really like this set-up and think it's even one ashby would be proud of.


----------



## wyetterp

muddyfuzzy said:


> i'm certainly not in the efoc range but i am shooting high foc. my current set-up is a black eagle deep impact 350 cut at 28", firenock outsert, 125 grain rfa razorhawk and 2" gateway feathers with rh helical. the finished arrow weight is 440 grains and yields an foc of 16.67%. the high foc arrows hook up faster than the same set-up shooting 2" fusions @ 14.5%, i really like this set-up and think it's even one ashby would be proud of.


Nice set up. What are your opinions of the outsert? I really like the specs of the deep impacts, just don't care much for outserts.


----------



## muddyfuzzy

wyetterp said:


> Nice set up. What are your opinions of the outsert? I really like the specs of the deep impacts, just don't care much for outserts.


love them, you won't have any issues with them bending on impact like the vap inserts. shooting them was a first for me and it took some getting used to but they have performed flawlessly and withstood a lot of abuse. with the firenock the shaft/outsert union is supported by around a .500" of shaft where the vap design still goes inside the shaft which can essentially create a fulcrum under a heavy load.


----------



## 260972

*Easton powerflight, FMJ DG, EFOC*

I will try to find some more photos, but I have been messing around with the Alaska Bow-hunting Supply Grizzly Stick 175, Easton FMJ DG 250, and cheap Easton Powerflights with 125 - 315 Gr broadhead samples from ABS and Abowyer.

Dressed arrows from over 1200 grains to under 600 grains with stock inserts, brass inserts, and 3 rivers weight tubes in various configurations.

So far I like the cheap powerflight 300 uncut without any weight tubes and with the original inserts...dressing out at about 644 grains with 260 (263-266 grain) Abowyer screw in heads and nocturnal nocks. I forget the FOC, but it is pretty good. I would like to shoot the brass inserts, but have been loosing to much trajectory for me right now. I am thinking about cutting my 4 dozen full length powerflights and installing the brass inserts that I have from 3 rivers.

The FMJ DG would be great for Africa, but the cheap powerflights should do well for most of North America and for some reason I love them. I also know they are not bent....unlike the top of the line FMJs that I have.

The grizz stick 175 are way to big around at the insert for me, but they have killed many dangerous game for people around the world. Great guys at ABS for sure!!!

I love the carbon steel Abowyer heads though as they do well with chap stick and have a lifetime warranty like magnus. Mine are 260 grains but seem to read 263-266 on the scale for me.

I will try to post up some more pictures and various FOCs on different arrows. I have messed around with numerous combinations and have a list with light CT Cheetahs to the grizz sticks.

BY THE WAY>>>>LOVE THE FOOTING PICTURES and POSTS!!! Keep um coming


----------



## 260972

mtsooner said:


> I read EVERY page of this lengthy thread!!!! Whew! So, I have been considering shooting FOBs lately. From what I've read, are most getting superior performance from feathers, vanes, what??? I love feathers...always will, but FOBs seem to be gaining in popularity, and you can't deny the data or videos being put out there (well, I guess you can, if your really stubborn).
> 
> So, with that being said, has anyone created a +20% FOC setup using FOBs?


Yes, CT Cheetahs with FOBS and 315 Gr head,,,,forget the FOC but the head weighs more than the shaft and all other parts of the arrow....and that is with the stock aluminum insert. The brass insert would add 80 more grains to the front.


----------



## 260972

bbjavelina said:


> I've never even actually seen an FOB. What do they weigh? Is it more than feathers?
> 
> I wish you well, but I think feathers were invented for flying. Plastic, maybe not so much.


In my humble opinion the FOBS steer broadheads better than anything,,,but that is just a personal preference after shooting numerous configurations of feathers and fletchings over






the years. However, I don't shoot the FOBS anymore as I like the non-drop away rests.


----------



## bowman72

Jimspur said:


> Would I be underspined with a .340 spine Gold Tip 75/95, 28" long from nock groove to end of carbon, with a 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain broadhead?
> These will be shot at 28" draw, 62 lbs. draw weight. Bow IBO is 308 fps. 3 vanes are 24 grains.
> Nock is 12 grains. Arrows will be around 482 grains and 18% FOC.
> Thanks, Jim


I think you will be perfect. I ran a similar arrow through OT2 program- only difference being I was using 75 grain insert and ended up with 445 grain total weight. It spined perfect with a 330 IBO bow, 62 lbs, 28 in draw.


----------



## henro

Lets hear more builds!

I'm now shooting a 620gr VAP 250 with 90gr SS insert, ~1.5" Easton X7 1814 footing and 190gr head. With a Nockturnal G nock, 3 ffp-360 extremes and a 5" wrap I have 22.75% FOC. The shaft is cut at 29" carbon to carbon. 


Sent from my iPhone5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## el Pollo Loco

Here's my planned setup...

Victory VAP 300 31" - been shooting these for a year now
92 grn SS insert - switching out the 43 grn that are currently on them
Footing kit for Tuffhead.com
Ashby 315 single bevel broadhead - considered using the Steel Force traditional 300 grn
Nockturnal G nock
Easton reflective wrap
3 Norway Fusion

I plan to start of experimenting with one arrow and see how things go. I will more then likely end up shortening it since I have room to work with and I might end up needing 250's instead of 300's. I'm thinking the finished arrow weight should be pretty close to 700 grn.


----------



## henro

el Pollo Loco said:


> Here's my planned setup...
> 
> Victory VAP 300 31" - been shooting these for a year now
> 92 grn SS insert - switching out the 43 grn that are currently on them
> Footing kit for Tuffhead.com
> Ashby 315 single bevel broadhead - considered using the Steel Force traditional 300 grn
> Nockturnal G nock
> Easton reflective wrap
> 3 Norway Fusion
> 
> I plan to start of experimenting with one arrow and see how things go. I will more then likely end up shortening it since I have room to work with and I might end up needing 250's instead of 300's. I'm thinking the finished arrow weight should be pretty close to 700 grn.


What bow setup?


Sent from my iPhone5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## henro

Also, last I knew Tuffhead didn't sell a kit that would fit the VAP's diameter? Have they added something new lately?


Sent from my iPhone5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## el Pollo Loco

Bowtech Insanity CPXL 30" @ 70#
And the footing kit I think was within .03 so I figure with some hot melt it should work, but this is all an experiment for me at this point. The Ashby head has already been cut from the list after seeing the tip failures so I'm going with the Abowyer 260 grn.


----------



## henro

el Pollo Loco said:


> Bowtech Insanity CPXL 30" @ 70#
> And the footing kit I think was within .03 so I figure with some hot melt it should work, but this is all an experiment for me at this point. The Ashby head has already been cut from the list after seeing the tip failures so I'm going with the Abowyer 260 grn.


Gonna be way too weak..250 might not even work. 


Sent from my iPhone5 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## chevman

Just loaded up some gold-tip 5575's at 28"" insert to nok groove, 100grain brass inserts, 100gr. fp's, 4" feathers, total arrow weight= 449, foc of 20%, and shot them out of a 62lb. bow. Results= excellent. Grouped well out to 60 yds. and held thier own in a steady 15mph cross wind. Archers Advantage say's....optimum spine on the stiff side. I use a compressed cardboard target and penatration was 12" +. I believe this is a winner. 
They also bareshaft and fixed blade broad-head tuned with very little adjustment. Will use for hunting this fall.


----------



## henro

chevman said:


> Just loaded up some gold-tip 5575's at 28"" insert to nok groove, 100grain brass inserts, 100gr. fp's, 4" feathers, total arrow weight= 449, foc of 20%, and shot them out of a 62lb. bow. Results= excellent. Grouped well out to 60 yds. and held thier own in a steady 15mph cross wind. Archers Advantage say's....optimum spine on the stiff side. I use a compressed cardboard target and penatration was 12" +. I believe this is a winner.
> They also bareshaft and fixed blade broad-head tuned with very little adjustment. Will use for hunting this fall.


Recurve?


----------



## chevman

Compound.


----------



## sneak1413

Something seems funky with my setup. I have some vap 350's cut to 25" with a 92 gn insert and 100 gn point and I'm only coming up with 16.5% foc with a total of 192 gn up front and 425 gn overall weight...?


----------



## Jacob Chapman

ChillR 75% Rock mods 73# @ 28"

Grizzlystik Momentum UFOC shafts

Either VPA 200/250 grain 2 blade or

Abowyer Javelina Lite w/stainless steel insert

Dont have the shafts yet, took the 650 Challenge should be here early next week hopefully.

Will be 650+ grains depending on which head I go with

I will post stats on foc, finished weight, speed, ke and momentum after doing some testing


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Jacob Chapman said:


> ChillR 75% Rock mods 73# @ 28"
> 
> Grizzlystik Momentum UFOC shafts
> 
> Either VPA 200/250 grain 2 blade or
> 
> Abowyer Javelina Lite w/stainless steel insert
> 
> Dont have the shafts yet, took the 650 Challenge should be here early next week hopefully.
> 
> Will be 650+ grains depending on which head I go with
> 
> I will post stats on foc, finished weight, speed, ke and momentum after doing some testing


TTT, and in for the results...


----------



## Frederick D. Be

You know....you have to dig sometimes to find good information and this thread is a really good one. I love to read about the results with respect to different spine, weight, FOC, KE, momentum,...all good material here. I shoot right at about 12% FOC and if I were going after big game I would increase to 16% + as you only find good results with that...I have yet to read something bad with regards to high FOC. So many are so concerned with speed these days. Cheers!
Fred


----------



## Ryjax

Jacob Chapman said:


> ChillR 75% Rock mods 73# @ 28"
> 
> Grizzlystik Momentum UFOC shafts
> 
> Either VPA 200/250 grain 2 blade or
> 
> Abowyer Javelina Lite w/stainless steel insert
> 
> Dont have the shafts yet, took the 650 Challenge should be here early next week hopefully.
> 
> Will be 650+ grains depending on which head I go with
> 
> I will post stats on foc, finished weight, speed, ke and momentum after doing some testing


Really been thinking about this. I would love to hear your results


----------



## bbjavelina

Frederick D. Be said:


> You know....you have to dig sometimes to find good information and this thread is a really good one. I love to read about the results with respect to different spine, weight, FOC, KE, momentum,...all good material here. I shoot right at about 12% FOC and if I were going after big game I would increase to 16% + as you only find good results with that...I have yet to read something bad with regards to high FOC. So many are so concerned with speed these days. Cheers!
> Fred


Ain't that the truth? 

I like a little more FOC than most. Just got back from my third trip to Africa. I'm interested in higher FOC, but not obsessed with it. 

I've got a chrono, but haven't used it in the last few years. I prefer to use arrow flight and accuracy as my measuring tools. To each his own.


----------



## XxHolleyxX

My whitetail setup
Hoyt CST - 62lb - 26.5 DL
ACC 3-60 - 26.5"
no wrap
Rayzers
Slick Trick Razor Trick 125
40 grains added PDP insert
448 grains total
253.1 fps by OT2
chrono checked @ 252 251 252 
18.48% FOC
These things fly great. I used them for turkeys with the Rage turkey 100's. 
Thought I might need to go to a FFP360, 4" feather, or a hard helical Blazer, for the fixed blades,
but after shooting today I think I'm good. Only checked out to 35 so far, but FP & BH are perfect.


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## stockcarkid3

i just fixed a black eagle ximpact 250 26 3/4"long with 70 gr insert and 100 gr tip which is roughly 16.9% foc also an ximpact 300 at 27" long with 100 gr insertand 100 gr tip with a foc of 18.9% both arrows weight around 450gr

I gave both to Breathn so when my 80lb evolution comes in hes gonna see how or if both will tune in it . Can anyone run those # with ot2 and see what it says? It will be 80 lb evolution 28" draw


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## Ryjax

stockcarkid3 said:


> i just fixed a black eagle ximpact 250 26 3/4"long with 70 gr insert and 100 gr tip which is roughly 16.9% foc also an ximpact 300 at 27" long with 100 gr insertand 100 gr tip with a foc of 18.9% both arrows weight around 450gr
> 
> I gave both to Breathn so when my 80lb evolution comes in hes gonna see how or if both will tune in it . Can anyone run those # with ot2 and see what it says? It will be 80 lb evolution 28" draw


The 300 will be weak unless you run a lighted nock. I have ran the numbers for my own set up. 
Where did you find the 100 grain insert for the x impact?? I have searched everywhere for something that heavy for mine.


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## stockcarkid3

i forgot to add that i will be using a lighted nock. It will either be lumenok or firenok so that will add about 10 gr to rear .I made a few at work on the lathe however i just had a machine shop with cnc equipment make me some 60gr and 100gr inserts based on the style of easton deep six insert which is .167 od and the new ones will be .165od. I should have some next week in my hand and on my scale. If it works out il have some for sale. however they will be brass and not stainless.


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## Ryjax

stockcarkid3 said:


> I made a few at work on the lathe however i just had a machine shop with cnc equipment make me some 60gr and 100gr inserts based on the style of easton deep six insert which is .167 od and the new ones will be .165od. I should have some next week in my hand and on my scale. If it works out il have some for sale


Sent you a pm


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## bbjavelina

bbjavelina said:


> Ain't that the truth?
> 
> I like a little more FOC than most. Just got back from my third trip to Africa. I'm interested in higher FOC, but not obsessed with it.
> 
> I've got a chrono, but haven't used it in the last few years. I prefer to use arrow flight and accuracy as my measuring tools. To each his own.


I'd like to add a bit.

The reason I bought the chrono was to be able to calculate Mo and Ke. The online 'approximaters" are not worth a durn for this. They will mislead you big-time. Only real numbers and a calculator will tell you the truth. I put it all in a spreadsheet so that I could see the result. Best I remember I never went North of around 750 grains or an FOC of around 25%. 

The most effective way to increase arrow mass is by adding point weight, all the while making double sure you have enough spine. As arrow mass increases, Mo and Ke always increase with a given bow set-up. So should penetration. 

For Whitetails, I don't think it makes much difference.


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## Ryjax

So this is what I am looking at right now:
Black Eagle X Impact 300 spine cut 27.5"
85 grain outsert 
125 grain head
5" Wrap
3x Vanetec 1.75" Super Spine 
Nocturnal nock
Total weight should be around 450 grains with a little over 19% FOC 
I checked on OT2 and they spine out great, but do you think the little low profile vanes will give me good fixed blade flight?


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## XxHolleyxX

(For Whitetails, I don't think it makes much difference.)

I agree...but on a marginal hit I'd rather have more momentum. I was just repurposing 
some arrows that I usually shoot out of my 65 lb Monster, and ended up having to put more weight 
up front to get them to spine out for the 62lb CST. Ended up being the highest FOC I have 
personally shot, so I figured I would put them on here.


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## bbjavelina

XxHolleyxX said:


> (For Whitetails, I don't think it makes much difference.)
> 
> I agree...but on a marginal hit I'd rather have more momentum. I was just repurposing
> some arrows that I usually shoot out of my 65 lb Monster, and ended up having to put more weight
> up front to get them to spine out for the 62lb CST. Ended up being the highest FOC I have
> personally shot, so I figured I would put them on here.


I'm a big fan of momentum. That's why I shoot the set-ups I do. It's a major card in my hand. Along with a well tuned set-up, sharp, effective heads, and a quiet bow.

Best of luck to you.


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## KingofHeros

If you guys are struggling to gain FOC use these arrows that have a built in FOC http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/GrizzlyStik-Momentum-Arrows-C60.aspx
And you guys who want the real Silver Flames that are made better than the ones on Alaskabowhunting, here is the link to the originals.
http://www.german-kinetics.com/prod...ndoo_flypage_1.tpl&product_id=8&category_id=1


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