# Serving Direction?



## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

this is correct, look at it from the end of the string, if your turning in a clockwise direction your twist come like in the pic, and you mount server and rotate it in the same direction around string


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

Depends on which direction the twists are going. *ALWAYS* serve in the same direction as the twits and you will be okay.


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## jaredc (Mar 23, 2008)

I know that there are a lot of posts regarding serving direction and somehow a simple process has become way to confusing. If you are worried that you serving direction is wrong just take a served cable and put a good bend in it and if your cable starts to twist like a snake then your direction is wrong. If your cable just stays there with the bend in it then you are good to go..... Simple as that.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

Stand at the end of the string looking down it. Which ever way you would rotate to twist the string is the same way you should serve it.


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## jaredc (Mar 23, 2008)

60X said:


> Stand at the end of the string looking down it. Which ever way you would rotate to twist the string is the same way you should serve it.


60X is dead on!


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

The problem with verbal descriptions of this is that it is confusing. The various verbal instructions sound to me like the wrong way to serve because it also depends on which direction you go left and right on the string itself.

The illustration by dwagoner is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT although I always called it reverse serving. It locks the serving to the string twist better and also maximizes the angle of attack or bite of the serving thread crossing the string threads.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

I've always hand served with the direction of the twist of the string. mainly based on the days when strings had a lot of creep. More twists added to the string and the serving stayed tight, whereas served in the opposite direction the serving could loosen. With modern day string material I don't think it is a issue.
I have noticed serving with the new Moto tool on a old practice string. Serving with the twist of the string, untwisted the string under the serving. (I was using Halo white.) Whereas serving in the opposite direction, the twists of the string under the serving stayed uniform.
I have checked the 'Crackers' made strings on my Strother bows. they are also served in the opposite direction to the twist of the string. I believe Crackers uses the HTM string serving machine.


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## droptine801 (Jan 8, 2007)

Tell me if this is right ok I have the string on my twister I am facing it the twister is to my left I turn it clock wise ok now I start serving the same way I turned to make the twister is this right !


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Purka said:


> I've always hand served with the direction of the twist of the string. mainly based on the days when strings had a lot of creep. More twists added to the string and the serving stayed tight, whereas served in the opposite direction the serving could loosen. With modern day string material I don't think it is a issue.
> I have noticed serving with the new Moto tool on a old practice string. Serving with the twist of the string, untwisted the string under the serving. (I was using Halo white.) Whereas serving in the opposite direction, the twists of the string under the serving stayed uniform.
> I have checked the 'Crackers' made strings on my Strother bows. they are also served in the opposite direction to the twist of the string. I believe Crackers uses the HTM string serving machine.


This is exactly why this subject is confusing. The pic that dwagoner posted is the first on the two links I posted. I knew that was the one that most people would say is correct. 

In that pic. If you hold both ends of the d-loop material and twist the string as if you were trying to shorten it, the d-loop material wants to unravel off of the string. 

I the second picture I posted. If hold both ends of the d-loop material and twist up the string the d-loop material gets tighter and wants to hold onto the string. This way seems more logical to me. And as Purka reported, that's how Crackers makes his strings as do others. 

Just trying to figure this all out. Not intentionally make a seemingly simple thing complicated.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

As 60X said earlier. If you stand facing the end of the string (either side) and twist the string in a clockwise direction (I assume you understand clockwise) you would serve with the serving tool rotating in a clockwise direction as well. So, if you are standing on the left side of the jig facing the serving tool the tool will rotate clockwise. If you are on the right side you do the same. Now, because you are working inward from the both ends it will seem that you are serving in opposite directions, but clockwise is clockwise. Hope this helps.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*As pictured*



EPLC said:


> As 60X said earlier. If you stand facing the end of the string (either side) and twist the string in a clockwise direction (I assume you understand clockwise) you would serve with the serving tool rotating in a clockwise direction as well. So, if you are standing on the left side of the jig facing the serving tool the tool will rotate clockwise. If you are on the right side you do the same. Now, because you are working inward from the both ends it will seem that you are serving in opposite directions, but clockwise is clockwise. Hope this helps.


More detail: Standing on the left side of the jig the tool will rotate toward you from the top and away from you from the right side. I also have a picture but can not seem to post it for some reason.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Verbal description remains confusing apparently because no one knows really how to describe what they are doing and because of whether the tool is travelling left or right. Also, if you are standing in front of the serving tool, there is no clockwise or counterclockwise.

Dwagoner's picture is correct, whatever you have to do to do that. Study the picture closely, your serving should travel the same path as is shown.


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## AwesomeAlien (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm going to chime in on this one. Use 60x's stance. Look at the string like you are looking down an old arrow to see if it is bent. From that position, determine which direction would make the string tighter or shorter(clockwise or counter clockwise). Which ever makes the string tighter or shorter is the same path your server should travel.

Ex Solo cam Long section of serving first------>center--------->idler-------------<short section of serving on the other end<-------

some people serve the short section going toward the post. I serve the short section from the post back toward the center, flipping my server backwards or put my apple in reverse.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

It would save confusion if we could agree on "clockwise" and "counterclockwise". How about referring to a right hand twist, like standard bolts and screws, or "righty-tighty" as being clockwise, and a left-hand twist, like the rarer specialty reverse bolts and screws, or "lefty-loosy" as counterclockwise? The string in the pic in post #2 would be counterclockwise.

Anyways, I've always put the serving on in the same direction as the string is twisted. Definitely that's the way to go on recurve dacron strings or Flemish Twist. However, it's not necessary on compound bow no-stretch strings, depending on how the string is made and used.

In order to minimize string/peep twist, you need to put the serving on AFTER the string is already twisted to its final length. If you serve first and then twist, yes it needs to be in the same direction, but you will end up with a string that will never settle it's rotation down.

When you do put the serving on a pre-twisted string, it needs to be tight, but not so tight that the string twists under the tension of the server.

If the string is already twisted to its final length, then it doesn't really matter in what direction the serving is applied. If you go in the same direction and then twist up the string (shorten) a bit, the serving gets a bit tighter. But if you need to untwist the string (lengthen), the serving gets a bit looser. Obviously the reverse happens if you go in the opposite direction.

So if you expect to have to shorten the string, serve the same way. If you expect to have to lengthen it, then serve the opposite way.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

I would be very careful with this proceedure...If you serve in the opposite directiuon as the twist, you can watch your string un ravel/untwist or coil up like one of those snakes that you light on the 4th of July...

Dont want to start an argument but it does matter...

Here is a pic that I posted a long time ago about this subject, there are a ton of posts on this subject



Stash said:


> If the string is already twisted to its final length, then it doesn't really matter in what direction the serving is applied. .


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## AwesomeAlien (Oct 31, 2009)

Stash said:


> It would save confusion if we could agree on "clockwise" and "counterclockwise". How about referring to a right hand twist, like standard bolts and screws, or "righty-tighty" as being clockwise, and a left-hand twist, like the rarer specialty reverse bolts and screws, or "lefty-loosy" as counterclockwise? The string in the pic in post #2 would be counterclockwise.
> 
> Anyways, I've always put the serving on in the same direction as the string is twisted. Definitely that's the way to go on recurve dacron strings or Flemish Twist. However, it's not necessary on compound bow no-stretch strings, depending on how the string is made and used.
> 
> ...


I agree, However everyone does not stand on the same end of their string jig. Some stand on the left and some stand on the right. Most string makers that have devolped their own formula over the years and serving elongation is figured in.

I am one of those people. I stand on the right and record my string right to left. When I post specs on here I flip them to be the same with everyone else.

The string in #2 is clockwise to me because I stand on the right end of my jig.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Picture = 1000 words. Unfortunately I can not seem to attach anything for some reason as the "Manage Attachments" button seems to be dead?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Stash said:


> ...If the string is already twisted to its final length, then it doesn't really matter in what direction the serving is applied...


I'm surprised you said that???


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

AwesomeAlien said:


> The string in #2 is clockwise to me because I stand on the right end of my jig.


It is clockwise in the fact that you physically twisted the string in that directiion. However the twists themselves are counter clockwise in direction. 

Stash is saying the he serves in the direction of the twists (counterclockwise), not in the direction you physically twist the string (clockwise)


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

EPLC said:


> I'm surprised you said that???


Why? If a string is stable, what does it matter to the serving if the string is twisted clockwise, counter-clockwise, or not twisted at all? It's not moving under the serving.

It's only when you twist or untwist the string after the serving is applied that the direction of the serving makes any difference, and I covered that in my explanation.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

i can say that ive once been quite mistaken by descriptions of what way is which for serving and have done both ways, some of the strings i made with serving is applied in opposite of how string was twisted did do pretty good. but i do apply in direction of twist now like that pic i put on my reply. descriptions are way to hard and people say "well i twist from the left or right" your always welcome to try both ways and see how well it holds up on something like a single cam bow on the buss where it rolls over the cam as thats where youll find out if its gonna last or not, thats the hardest spot on any bow for serving wear.


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## 1Hole Wunder (Feb 26, 2008)

This is what i do, I twist the string to finished length,then i take my thumb and forefinger at the unclosed end loop and rotate the sting to see which direction will tighten the bundles, and that is the direction i serve that end, from loop to center. And then i do the same on the other end, I find that when using seperators, One end is served in a differnt direction than the other end. This is just my process,I Serve to tighten the string bundles.


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

View attachment 970567


This is what happens when you serve in the OPPOSITE direction of the twists, you will "untwist" the twists under the serving.


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## omergic (Dec 28, 2010)

cool.


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## TN ARCHER (Jan 31, 2007)

View attachment 970568


This is what happens when you serve in the same direction as the twists, your twists stay in place under the serving.

Just remember.... if you twist one end in a clockwise direction serve that end in a clockwise direction. Now the other end is going to be twisting in a counterclockwise direction ( refer to exwolverine pic). So the other end needs to be served in a counterclockwise direction.

This of course providing you keep your self positioned on the same side of the jig through the process.

I know it can be confusing. I always thought I served in the right direction until I started using white Halo.


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## PDB Strings (May 13, 2010)

The clear halo pics say it all.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

TN ARCHER said:


> View attachment 970567
> 
> 
> This is what happens when you serve in the OPPOSITE direction of the twists, you will "untwist" the twists under the serving.


Only if you fail to use adequate tension on the string to balance the tension applied by the serving tool.

Regardless of the direction of serving, inadequate string tension will result in the twist under the serving being different from the unserved portion of the string. In one direction it will be less under the serving and the other direction it will be greater twist under the serving.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I add that, if you serve the center serving the wrong direction, you will find out you have made that mistake in a hurry. When you draw back the bow , the peep site will start twisting like crazy on you, and you'll then know you messed up and get the opportunity to practice re-serving center servings, ha!

For FINGER shooters, it has always been a practice to serve the center serving in a direction whereby when you draw the bow with your fingers on the string, you are TIGHTENING UP the center serving. Of course, for FINGER SHOOTERS, you have to "adjust" your peep angle by trial and error so that the peep "opens up" when you hit full draw/anchor, ha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

field14 said:


> For FINGER shooters, it has always been a practice to serve the center serving in a direction whereby when you draw the bow with your fingers on the string, you are TIGHTENING UP the center serving.


I don't understand...Yes, with finger shooters the string does roll, but as you roll the string and center serving, it will tighten at the top and loosen at the bottom, or loosen at the top and tighten at the bottom, depending on which way the serving is applied. So what difference does it make? 

I do agree that for something like a tied-on nocking point that is in contact with the fingers, the direction of application is important. You don't want to wrap that around the string counterclockwise (RH shooter, looking at the string top down) because the fingers will unravel it. 

FS560 has it right. The main issue is proper tension balance between the server and the string. If you have a lot of tension on the string and make sure it doesn't twist as you apply the serving, then the serving will not alter the twist of the string under it, and you will have no peep rotation.

Bottom line - I repeat: On no-stretch strings, the direction of serving does not matter if you are not twisting the string any further in either direction, and have kept the string from twisting while you applied the serving with the correct server tension. 

 Now, if you are making strings badly and are looking for further advice on how to bandaid the problem, keep reading the discussusion.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Stash said:


> I don't understand...Yes, with finger shooters the string does roll, but as you roll the string and center serving, it will tighten at the top and loosen at the bottom, or loosen at the top and tighten at the bottom, depending on which way the serving is applied. So what difference does it make?
> 
> I do agree that for something like a tied-on nocking point that is in contact with the fingers, the direction of application is important. You don't want to wrap that around the string counterclockwise (RH shooter, looking at the string top down) because the fingers will unravel it.
> 
> ...


The IMPORTANT PART is what that serving is doing at the point you have your FINGER TAB..>I couldn't care less about what it is doing at the BOTTOM of the serving...it is what it is doing AT THE POINT OF FINGER TAB CONTACT that is important. If you've never been a top echelon finger shooter, you won't understand.

Take off your center serving as it is now applied and then intentionally serve it up the opposite direction! I'll betcha you are going to find that your peep site is going to be twisting around on you. Been there and done this...and that includes with supposed "No Twist" strings! You GOTTA pay attention when you re-serve the bowstring that you re-serve it in the SAME direction as originally done; otherwise you get to do it over.

In addition to all this, you want CORRECT NOCK FIT as well, so therefore, the tension on the server has to be adjusted to insure PROPER NOCK FIT as well. THAT dictates my server tension more than much of anything else.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

> If you've never been a top echelon finger shooter, you won't understand.


Well, with 35 years of stringmaking experience, and having represented my country at 11 international events shooting a recurve, I think I have a reasonable understanding of stringmaking as related to finger shooters.  And yes, that includes finger/compound/peep.

Regardless of whether a serving is applied like this =====///////===== or like this =====\\\\\\\\=====, when you wrap your fingers around the string, the serving will tighten either way. 

On my compounds, when I draw with my fingers I don't get any peep turning, and that's drawing either right and left handed on the same bow.

The direction of the string twist doesn't matter either. Even with a light bow weight and not a lot of tension on the string, you might get 1/4 of a turn on the peep when finger shooting and that amounts to about 1/2 twist of the string at the nocking point. And besides, the serving is not sliding over the strands of the string, the whole string is rolling. Hardly a significant impact on the serving direction/string twist relationship when you consider 1/2 of a twist over 40 or 50 twists of a string and 150 or more wraps of serving thread. 

One last time...on *properly made *strings, the only time that the direction of serving and the direction of string twist *needs* to be the same is if you are planning on adding a _*lot*_ of twists to the string due to stretching or major adjustments after construction. If the string is well made and the correct final length, the serving direction does not matter, as the string itself is not twisting. 

Regarding correct nock fit - I agree it's important, but the proper way to do that is not to adjust the server tension, but to change the strand count or serving thickness.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand? I twist my strings with a drill. The drill is set to spin in a clockwise direction. If I were to use the drill as a screwdriver, the screws will go in with this setting. If I were to set the drill in reverse, it would turn in a counter-clockwise direction and screws would come out. Think of the serving tool in the same manner. If it turns in the same direction as a drill sinking screws as it moves into the unserved area of the string as you serve, you have it right. Think of twisting the string the same way.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Are we talking about just putting twists in the string using the drill - that is, the string is attached at one end to the drill and fixed at the other? If that's the case, then having the drill in "forward" puts counterclockwise twists in the string.

Or are we talking about using a drill to turn the string in its entirity without adding or taking out any twists? That is, you have a jig or stretcher that completely rotates. If that's the case, in what direction are you moving the serving tool - towards the drill or away from the drill? If your drill is running in "forward" and you run the server towards the drill, you have a clockwise serving. If your drill is running in "forward" and you run the server away from the drill, you have a counterclockwise serving.

How about this? (tough to do in text, isn't it? )

String is black, serving is red

1 - counterclockwise twist with counterclockwise serving
///////////////////////////////////

2 - counterclockwise twist with clockwise serving
//////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////

3 - clockwise twist with clockwise serving
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

4 - clockwise twist with counterclockwise serving
\\\\\\\\\\///////////////\\\\\\\\\\


I'm saying, that if you have a well-layed out string and have applied the serving with the right amount of tension, ALL of these are acceptable for non-stretch strings. If you have a string that you expect to stretch with time (dacron) or have to shorten more than a tiny bit, then either 1 or 3 is acceptable. Makes no difference if you're shooting fingers or release, or right or left handed.




Are we having fun yet?


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## proelitefan (Jun 27, 2007)

i make mine like this...
i have my twister/strecher on my right hand side, which i have figured out being my bottom loop on the bow, and the top loop on my post on my left.
i always twist clockwise, when serving i start from the bottom serving from my loop towards the center of the string clockwise (over and under), then my top loop i start again from loop to center if string, now i actualy go counterclockwise(under and over) and ive never had a problem there.
not sure if the string makers do the same, but im always happy to learn from the pros, thanks.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Stash said:


> Are we talking about just putting twists in the string using the drill - that is, the string is attached at one end to the drill and fixed at the other? If that's the case, then having the drill in "forward" puts counterclockwise twists in the string.
> 
> Or are we talking about using a drill to turn the string in its entirity without adding or taking out any twists? That is, you have a jig or stretcher that completely rotates. If that's the case, in what direction are you moving the serving tool - towards the drill or away from the drill? If your drill is running in "forward" and you run the server towards the drill, you have a clockwise serving. If your drill is running in "forward" and you run the server away from the drill, you have a counterclockwise serving.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are having fun and in a perfect world you are absolutely correct... Even in a not so perfect world, on short strings, such as on a recurve or 2-cam or hybrid compound you may get away with what you say because the string will be easier to keep from twisting under the pressure of the serving tool. That having been said, try your "it doesn't matter" theory on a 100" one-cam string and see how you make out. The process of serving will create some degree of twisting under the serving no matter how good the string is made. The better the process, the less this will happen but when you serve against the grain the string twists will unravel under the pressure of the serving tool. I believe this is the root of the serving against the grain problem...

I do agree though that if no twist unevenness is produced under the serving you will have a stable string, no matter which way you serve. I think it is just easier to produce that condition when serving with the grain. BTW, when I say clockwise, I refer to the direction the string is twisted. Because I use spacers at each end during the process of twisting, the twists actually start in the middle and work their way out to the ends, not that it matters, the string is rotated in a clockwise direction just as the serving tool is.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Well, all I do to keep the string from twisting under the tension of the server is simply grab the string near the server with one hand while I spin the server with the other hand. No twists.

(Interesting how quoting my post and putting the text into italics screws up my little diagrams, isn't it?)


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Thanks for all the posts guys and for making/keeping it an informative discussion. :thumb: :thumb:


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Stash said:


> Well, all I do to keep the string from twisting under the tension of the server is simply grab the string near the server with one hand while I spin the server with the other hand. No twists.
> 
> (Interesting how quoting my post and putting the text into italics screws up my little diagrams, isn't it?)


This doesn't quite work when using a Moto server and drill.  especially if the tension goes up with the speed of the drill.
your black and red dia. 1. and 3. untwisted the string under the serving with the Motorised serving tool. ( as in TN ARCHER first pic.)
2.and 4. kept the twists under the serving stable, using the same tension on the string and server. ( as in TN ARCHER second pic.)
Although I've only made a couple of strings with the Moto tool. It is a great tool and I intend to use it a lot.


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## SDLAW (Aug 28, 2006)

Right hand , left hand, clockwise, counter clockwise are terms that just confuse the issue because they can all be interpreted differently depending on perspective. The easy way is to serve about 1/2 inch then pull on the serving jig like a pull string on a top. If the string tries to untwist you are going the wrong way. If it gets tighter, you're good to go.


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## Deer Eliminator (Jan 21, 2010)

SDLAW said:


> Right hand , left hand, clockwise, counter clockwise are terms that just confuse the issue because they can all be interpreted differently depending on perspective. The easy way is to serve about 1/2 inch then pull on the serving jig like a pull string on a top. If the string tries to untwist you are going the wrong way. If it gets tighter, you're good to go.


Good way to put it! 

Hutch


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

I found this thread so entertaining and so completely confusing that I had to bump it up. I had some one ask me a question about the rotation of my NW Spinner in my video so I figured I would look it up and see what others were saying. 

I'm almost sorry I did. 
I am certain that I am almost sort of completeley twisted around and confused.


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