# Cam-and a -half VS. Single cam



## creepingdeath (Mar 28, 2005)

I am hearing conflicting reports. I don't want to mess with my bow. I have my local archery shop tune the bow. Which needs less tuning. Single cam or cam 1/2 ? Which tune job lasts longer? Which is easyier to tune? Am getting ready to buy a new Martin Bow. Gonna get the Quest. So there's gonna be string stretch for a while. Please , people explain the differences, simplexides ( is that a word) in tuning. I am looking for which ever tunes the easyiest and which ever cam stays tuned the longest. PLEASE HELP!! CD


----------



## archer55 (May 30, 2005)

I've put thousands of shots through my 2004 Hoyt Razortech with Cam and 1/2 and have absolutely no tune problems. I changed a string a couple of months ago, but did no "tuning" and it still shoots great. My prior bow was a martin Jaguar Magnum with the Fusion 1 cam and it was the same. Both are very low maintenance systems, so buy whatever system feels the best to you on the draw. Since going with the Cam and 1/2, though, I'll probably stick with them, but that's just me.


----------



## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*String/cable material and construction?*

I have had more tuning issues with singles, but it really was due to string/cable materials that stretch and creep. With the very long string and shorter cable of singles, if there is stretch, it will most likely not be even. If you can get a single cam timed right, and you have a good string/cable set on the bow, it should be pretty stable.

I haven't owned an actual Hoyt Cam.5, but I did have the Newberry version. It seemed to tune very easily, and I didn't have issues with the timing changing, although if I had kept it, I would have had to reserve the power cable as it was wearing out.

The Darton CPS is excellent as far as tuning and keeping the bow in tune. I did have a little issue with mine due to shooting a drop away rest and not using a string loop. With this bow and the adjustments possible, it was easy to fix. On some of the singles I had issues with, there really wasn't much I could do to change the bow. I've read on different forums that Darton has poor strings. You couldn't prove that by me. My cam system hasn't moved off the timing marks in thousands of shots. The servings on the string, power cable, and control cable are all looking like brand new. The only thing I have reserved in close to a year of shooting has been the center serving of the string.

I currently have a single cam bow (MQ1) and a CPS bow (Tundra Extreme). They both shoot better than I can. Both tuned easily, and seem pretty stable. The MQ1 has Winner's Choice string/cable and the Darton still has the factory set on it.


----------



## P.L. Archery (Apr 14, 2005)

Honestly, it's six to one- half dozen to the other. String material is far more important than cam design. The cam.5 is basicaly the same as a one cam as far as string creep goes. It's the same amount of material on both designs, and they "do" the same thing. The laws of physics state that one 100" string creeps the same amount as two 50" strings under the same tension.

So, in a nut shell, if the strings and cables are all the same material, then I see no real difference in one design being easier to tune than the other.


----------



## big weave (May 1, 2005)

*Go for feel*

If at all possible shoot every make and model available. I used to be one sided on what to shoot. I have had really good luck with my solocam, but my buddies have also had really good luck with there hybrids. Put a Winners Choice on any bow and it should be good to go, as far as timing.


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

What are going to use the bow for? If it's mostly hunting I'd choose the TruArc, hands down. If you do choose the DynaCam pay particular attention to any amount of cam-lean it may have. By that I mean the actual bow you intend to buy.

The mention of quality aftermarket strings is a good one if you can and want to spend the money. However, Martin's strings are made of UltraCam and aren't too bad for factory strings. There is the usual breakin time of about 50-100 shots and most of the creep is gone. At least that's been my experience with them.

That being said, I had my ShadowCat two weeks and put Winner's Choice on it. Are they the best? I don't know. I haven't tried ALL the aftermarket makes yet. Prostrings is another good brand, though.


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

The cam.5 in reality is a unicam with cams at both ends, so it should be faster since it has levers at both ends instead of just one end. Also, to me, the symmetry (cams at both ends) seems like a better idea, but then, I liked the duallys


----------



## tjb357452 (Jan 24, 2003)

There's not enough difference between the two to live on. I prefer the feel of almost any cam system over a single cam but most of the bows I own are single cams and they are capable of shooting a lot better than I can hold. If I were faced with a choice, I'd select the cam and a half. Son owns a couple of Dartons' with CPS that I think is a very good system. Hoyt's Cam and a half is a derivative of Darton's CPS and they pay Darton for its use.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

It's this simple
Single Cam: String stretch will not affect nock travel and still group well. 
Cam 1/2: Stretch WILL effect nock travel and give random high shots
Equalizer cam: Stretch will not effect nock travel and group well
Twin Cam: Stretch will kill nock travel and group like a dog


----------



## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

P.L. Archery said:


> Honestly, it's six to one- half dozen to the other. String material is far more important than cam design. .



exactly....good strings set and forget it... :wink:


----------



## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Marcus,
When you say "String stretch" are you using the term "string" loosly and really mean "Cable stretch"? I cannot see how string creep (stretch) will have much effect on the nock travel of a cam & 1/2 or two cam bow, however I can see how differential cable creep will have an effect on cam synchronization and consequently nock travel. By the same token string creep tends to change the nock position of a single cam more than a cam & 1/2 or two cam, so I quess they all their pro's and con's.

Brian


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Try "stretching" your string by moving to a different post on both ends, as on the PSE Vector 5 cams. PSE says it changes draw length, but gee, Marcus- they didn't tell me it trashed my nock travel too!!


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

yes cable stretch will effect nock travel on both the cam 1/2 and the twin cam. 
The killer with cable stretch on a dual type cam system is that you don't notice it. On a single cam your groups move but they usually still group, cam 1/2 can take some weeks brfore the trouble is found. 

Use some imagination Jabwa, geez.


----------



## str8bowbabe (Apr 20, 2005)

*I hope this helps....*

Strings stretch from the middle out right? Where is the middle of the string on a one cam bow, at the top of the idler wheel. When you set the nocking point on a one cam bow you have to set it high to accomodate this before you ever shoot the bow. As the string stretches, the nocking point on a one cam bow is always moving down. The more the string stretches the further down your nocking point goes. On a cam and 1/2 system, the middle of the string is at your nocking point. When the string stretches, it doesnt move the nocking point. I shoot a one cam bow. I have to check my nocking point on a regular basis(once a week) to make sure that my nocking point didnt move too much. My husband shoots a cam and 1/2, he can tune his bow and a month later pick it up and it will be fine. It will shoot just like it did before because the nocking point did not move. So, with that being said, I think the cam and 1/2 wins.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Nocking point is a minor part of accuracy. The problem with the Cam 1/2 system is that if the cables move the cams g out of sync. When that happens you get unlevel nock travel at full draw. You won't feel it but it will give you high shots. You won't get that with the single cam because the nocking movement will remain level at full draw. I tune bows for a number of National champions who shoot Hoyts and it's a major issue (one has now moved away from Hoyt and shooting AR single cam). We also have setup jigs to test these things.


----------



## str8bowbabe (Apr 20, 2005)

*Marcus*

I understand that nocking point is only a small part of tuning. I understand that the cam synchronozation is far more important. I shoot an AR31 single cam and I am just saying that I have to check the tuning on my bow more often than my husbands bow that is an AR Blade cam and 1/2. The question was which takes more tuning and which stays in tune longer. I think the cam 1/2 system once tuned in does. Yes, you have to watch for cable stretch but I have to really watch cable and string stretch on my one cam.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

I shot Cam 1/2 and Spirals last year, this year Mathews SIngle and now the Bowtech Equalizer cams. 
The Bowtech has been the least trouble of any of them by a long shot.


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Marcus said:


> ...The problem with the Cam 1/2 system is that if the cables move the cams g out of sync. .....


So its a problem with the cables/strings...not of the cam system. I truly believe that if we had better string materials back in the "old days" we may never have known what a single cam is today. 

The moral of the story is get whichever cam system feels and fits best for you, put a good set of strings and cable(s) on it, and shoot the dickens out of it. :shade:


----------



## vpier (Jul 30, 2004)

Like others have stated. Get good strings and leave it alone once the bow is setup correctly. My UltraTec was tuned last fall when I put new strings on it and hasnt been touched since. The bow shot lights out for me this pass weekend.


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Jabwa said:


> The cam.5 in reality is a unicam with cams at both ends...


I look at is as more of a single cam with a lumpy idler.


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Marcus said:


> The Bowtech has been the least trouble of any of them by a long shot.


I see these as nothing more than two single cams.........So, I guess it could be argued that it is a variation of a single-cam, or a hybrid, or a twin.....Optimum "timing" seems to be key to performance regardless of cam system and keeping it there seems to be dependent on the harness material and construction.


----------



## bowbender7 (Jun 1, 2002)

Marcus< I had far more trouble trying to keep a single cam shooting well than either twins or cam.5. The problem with singles is that it does not matter which part of the harness stretches - your point of impact moves because your nock always moves depending on which part of the harness settles.. Twins and hybrids do not suffer from this to the same degree. I really dont care what my nock travel is or is not as long as I am shooting the scores I know I am capable of, and I dont have low misses all the sudden or feel the need to reset my pointer EVERY time I warm up for a tournament.
You may retain grouping out of a single when your cable creeps a little, but too bad it just cost you points because your group moved southward.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Good string material is a must still not ideal on some cams. 
Case in point is that if for any reason at all there is any tiny movement on the Cam 1/2 and you will miss the 10. My wife shoots 452X and shoots very well. If for any reason one of her cams moves she drops points, points she can not afford. We have seen that happen. This can be due to too many twists in hte cable, a strand breakage, heat etc etc. Even a half twist on the Cam 1/2 is enough to put you out of the 10 ring. 

This is easy enough to test
Measuring the nock travel while the bow is drawn shows you how the cams are behaving. Most cams will drop in their nocking point then come back up. The key is at full draw. As you hit the wall and then pull harder what does the nocking point do?
On a out of time twin cam it will move up or down. If the top cam is more advanced than the bottom on a cam 1/2 the nocking point will drop as you pull harder into the wall. 
On the Equalizer cam will twwsited up a cable 10 twists making 1/4" difference at rest between the 2 cams. We then tested the nock travel and it remained perfect. You could see the cams ome back into sync at full draw as well. 
When we tested the PSE NRG and AR Ram Plus cam (same cam) the result was a perfect level nock travel the whole draw. When we tested an out of sync Ram 1/2 it behaved the same as the Hoyt Cam 1/2. Nocking point moved as it was pulled harder into the wall. 
How does this effect you? If you just hunt most likely not too much. I shot with a 2 twist difference with the cam 1/2 and was shooting 300 52X NFAA indoor rounds with it. Putting in in time however led to 300 59X rounds however. My Hoyt Command Cams could be only a touch out and I would drop to 300 40X. 
Because my wife shoots back tension against the wall when her cams go out she can drop 10 points indoor on a Vegas face. I don't use the wall as much so don't get killed by it as often. 

So if you are a hunter or casual shooter the Cam 1/2 will perform well and be reasonbly consistant. If you want to make it dead spot on accurate however you need to know your stuff. Buying some fancy cables will help, but you will still need to know what you are doing if you want to shoot X's all night long. 
If you can tell the difference between a shot landing in the baby X on a Vegas face and hitting the 10, then set and forget is not wise on a Cam 1/2 bow. 

As for the Bowtech, it's a twin cam with the cabling done smarter. Nothing like a single cam which is more like 2 cams joined together. 

Anyway everyone will tout that the bow they use is the easiest and best system to buy.


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

I'm trying to use my imagination, but I'm having trouble imagining how that horrible nock travel on my Cam.5 will shoot bullet holes and shoot 3" groups at 60 yards (sometimes I don't, however)


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Don't believe me, do the tests yourself, nothing stopping you.


----------



## Johan_f (Jun 10, 2005)

Learn to understand how a One-cam bow workes and You will realise that there ar no substitute for it! Thev one cam bows greatnes are! There are two cam curves in one cam, that works simultanius, this means that the bow aims much softer than anny thing else, and for some reason, eaven if the string or cable stretces, the tuning and sightmarks stayes almost the same. No other cam or wheel system can compare to it.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Johan_f said:


> No other cam or wheel system can compare to it.


Yep, as tests show above the Equalizer cam can.


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

How many tracks does a single-cam have?

How many tracks does a twin-cam have?

How many tracks does an Equalizer have?

Marcus, for somebody with so much experience why don't you creep tune your wife's bow. With properly built 452 strings and cables I don't see where they should get any movement over a reasonable amount of time (at least 1000-2000 shots). I haven't had to adjust either of the bows I'm shooting now for a few months. If I counted the shots I've logged its probably about 3K on one bow and 2K on the other since I recabled and strung them.

Cam 1/2 out of time. We've got a young kid (He's 17 now) locally that usually shoots with the men. two years ago he got his new cam 1/2 and his dad set it up for him. He set a couple state records with the new bow. A month later he was shooting in the Big Sky Tournaments clay pigeon round and cleaned it (something that only one pro has ever done, I think it was Ragsdale). When I looked at his bow he had one module in A and the other module in E. I asked him to shoot a couple arrows while I watched his arrow flight. It was fine. His static timing was fine (cams oriented nearly identical in relation to the string, but his dynamic timing was off by bunches, don't think the top cam even rotated half way. Irregardless of his "fouled up nock travel", timing issues, etc. the bow still shot fine. That seems to be a pretty good test to me. 

Wish I had 452 back in the twin cam days, I could have gotten alot more sleep instead of spending half the night getting my bows timed.


----------



## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

*Cam .5*

I have 2 Hoyt cam.5 bows, and they both paper tuned the first time out :thumbs_up then after changing the crappy strings that came on them with Vapor Trail VTX, they still shot bullet holes at 8ft. :smile: I'm not an expert, but when a lay person such as myself can change strings, set nock posotion, and eye balled centershoot, and shoot like that threw paper, I don't think cam.5 are that complicated.
But don't get me wrong, it just might be luck, but if you take good care of your equipment, it should give years of service.
Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Bobmuley said:


> Marcus, for somebody with so much experience why don't you creep tune your wife's bow. With properly built 452 strings and cables I don't see where they should get any movement over a reasonable amount of time (at least 1000-2000 shots). I haven't had to adjust either of the bows I'm shooting now for a few months. If I counted the shots I've logged its probably about 3K on one bow and 2K on the other since I recabled and strung them.


Creep tuning is not accurate enough. We measure nock travel instead. Works better becase there is no human error. Then if the arrows go where pointed we know we did it right. 
She is current National Target champ, so it works well. 


> Cam 1/2 out of time. We've got a young kid (He's 17 now) locally that usually shoots with the men. two years ago he got his new cam 1/2 and his dad set it up for him. He set a couple state records with the new bow. A month later he was shooting in the Big Sky Tournaments clay pigeon round and cleaned it (something that only one pro has ever done, I think it was Ragsdale). When I looked at his bow he had one module in A and the other module in E. I asked him to shoot a couple arrows while I watched his arrow flight. It was fine. His static timing was fine (cams oriented nearly identical in relation to the string, but his dynamic timing was off by bunches, don't think the top cam even rotated half way. Irregardless of his "fouled up nock travel", timing issues, etc. the bow still shot fine. That seems to be a pretty good test to me.


Yep done the same. My wife shot a PB with her modules in the wrong spot. (we were testing the forgiveness of a badly setup system) Moved them and fixed it and her scores went even higher. She now shoots Spirals and hers scores climbed again. 
My student also shot Cam 1/2 and with it out of time broke a number of National Records. But when we got it setup correctly he smashed those existing ones. 
He changed to the AR34 Ram Plus and broke a National record within a week. 
I've shot my best outdoor FITA with Spiral cams. What I like about the Spirals is that if something goes out you know about it. This way I fix it fast. The Cam 1/2 would take a few weeks of below average scores before picking up on it. My wife knows within a few shots that something is wrong with the Spirals now. 
BTW she shoots 1000 arrows a week at 60# (250 arrows per session, 5 sessions a week). She replaces her strings and cables usually after 6 months. Thats 26,000 shots. Not bad. 

They are accurate, but even when I shot them I knew that they were not perfect. 
The Cam 1/2 is better than a twin cam because it will be reasonbly accurate when setup wrong (as I said above) but do you want reasonable or perfect?



> Wish I had 452 back in the twin cam days, I could have gotten alot more sleep instead of spending half the night getting my bows timed.


Agreed. 452X is awesome material. I use it even on my Bowtech. 

Regarding the number of tracks. Is tracks how you determine if a cam is a twin or a single? Single cam requires an idler doing nothing. Equalizer is 2 cams both working the same way, just like a twin cam. 
Anyway it doesn't matter, it works well.


----------



## creepingdeath (Mar 28, 2005)

I only hunt with bow's . I shoot very little because the more I shoot the worse the bad habbit's become. My favorite way to practice is one shot a day. I go into the back, creep along (like i'm stillhunting) and pretend I happen along a elk. I draw, I shoot. I always pick a different range and angle. My target range enables me to shoot slightly up or down hill, flat or from an elevated platform. I can shoot from 5yds to 50 yards. With 40 yds being my personal max. I practice like this because that's how it is when I hunt. Sometimes a friend will bring his bow and we will shoot for about an hour. I have a old martin firecat that flings em' at around 227fps. I never have to tune this bow. My friend shoots a new mathew's and constantly is having tuning issues. I'm gonna get a new bow next year (a martin) and I just don't want to [email protected]#K with it. At least only as little a possible. My buddy's bow is a single cam. His bow performance is not impressive. The martin's I looking at are the Quest and the saber. They both come with single or cam 1/2.HELP


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

It seems to me there are two ways to measure nock travel. On a tiller board (let's call this the static method) and with ultra slow motion video (let's call this the dynamic method). I am not an engineer or a physicist by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me these two methods will give very different results, probably because of the inertia effects (light weight arrow, heavy limbs, pivot point not in center of bow, etc.). Marcus, which method did you use in the examples above? If it was the "dynamic" method, I certainly would like a copy of the video. If it was the "static" method, I am not interested.


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Question for Marcus*

What about Darton CPS-do they have level nock travel?Would you say it's a matter of tune or time?Do they need to be creep tuned?


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Jabwa said:


> It seems to me there are two ways to measure nock travel. On a tiller board (let's call this the static method) and with ultra slow motion video (let's call this the dynamic method). I am not an engineer or a physicist by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me these two methods will give very different results, probably because of the inertia effects (light weight arrow, heavy limbs, pivot point not in center of bow, etc.). Marcus, which method did you use in the examples above? If it was the "dynamic" method, I certainly would like a copy of the video. If it was the "static" method, I am not interested.


So please explain to me 
a) what you think nock travel is
b) How it impacts on your archery
c) How it fits in with tiller tuning and creep tuning

loujo61
I have not bothered testing teh CPS itself because no one around here uses them. I have however tested or seen results to 3 brands of hybreds and they suffered the same problem. AT looking at the design of the CPS it has nothing that would make it better than the Cam 1/2 in this aspect at the point that matters. 
While creep testing works well (I use it as a stop gap) the best is actually measuring the nock travel around full draw. On every bow I have done this with and tuned for perfect travel at full draw the bows have been capable of hitting the same hole indoors no matter where in the valley I was shooting from. 

Interesting that the ones geeting their backs up over this thread also shoot Hoyts.


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Nock travel at full draw? I am confused. "travel" implies movement over a distance; to me, "nock travel" is the movement of the nock FROM full draw to the release of the nock from the string after the release. If this is incorrect, please enlighten me, and then, please answer my question: what method was used to measure nock travel?


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Question for Marcus*

I shoot Dartons but I'm looking for something better-what bow single cam,hybrid,or dual would do me for 3D.I have a 31.5" draw-I want something that builds quickly and drops off to 65%.I also would like +300fps,+38"ata,and a bow that does'nt go out of tune or time easily.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Jabwa said:


> Nock travel at full draw? I am confused. "travel" implies movement over a distance; to me, "nock travel" is the movement of the nock FROM full draw to the release of the nock from the string after the release. If this is incorrect, please enlighten me, and then, please answer my question: what method was used to measure nock travel?


The tests were done statically.
Nock travel is referreing to the movement that the nock moves and and down while being drawn back. 
Poor nock travel at full draw, for example on an out of time cam 1/2 or dual cam, will mean as you pull harder into the wall the nocking point changes (say moves downwards). 
I have tested this on a static board and seen it do this. 
Then picked up the bow shot an X by softly touching the wall
Next arrow pulled hard into the wall and shot a high 9

By timing the cam so there is no vertical movement as I pull harder into the wall I can do the above shooting test and hit X's with both shots. 

Only a few mm movement at full draw is enough to miss the 10 ring on a Vegas face indoors.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

loujo61 said:


> I shoot Dartons but I'm looking for something better-what bow single cam,hybrid,or dual would do me for 3D.I have a 31.5" draw-I want something that builds quickly and drops off to 65%.I also would like +300fps,+38"ata,and a bow that does'nt go out of tune or time easily.


Sounds like an Old Glory to me. Meets all those requirements.


----------



## bowbender1 (Nov 18, 2002)

How about posting a pic of your nock travel jig Marcus. I would like to see how it works and how it can draw your nock travel.


----------



## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Marcus,
I understand what you are saying about nock travel @ full draw and you seem to have a lot of experience about tuning and nock travel. I have several questions on which I would appreciate your opinion.

On a twin cam bow, synchronization issues result from differential creep in the buss cables. In my opinion if strings are made with the right material, like 452, and with high quality, cam synchronization issues nearly dissappear. With the twin cam system, both buss cables are identical in length and undergo identical stresses, so they both tend to creep identically maintaining cam synchronization throughout the life cycle of the cables.

On the cam&1/2 system both cables are not the same length and I do not know if they see the same stress profile. Given these differences is it safe to assume the cables will not creep identically resulting in more noticable synchronization issues? Is the nock travel of a cam&1/2 less sensitive to cam synchronization than the nock travel of a twin cam?

Finally if string creep is the biggest issue with a single cam it would seem to me that a very low creep string material, like 452 should be the material of choice. I like to use 452 cables and 8125 strings on my twin cam bows. I have just purchased an AR37 cam&1/2 and do know what combination of strings and cables to use, but my gut says the same as I am doing for my twin cams.

Brian


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Marcus, sorry but I am really getting confused. In an earlier post you said 
: "measuring nock travel WHILE THE BOW IS BEING DRAWN...." and you displayed a series of horizontal lines, some straight some crooked. Now you are defining nock travel as THE MOVEMENT OF THE NOCK UP AND DOWN AT FULL DRAW as one pulls harder into the wall. I think you are the one who needs to explain exactly what YOU think nock travel is!

By the way, when I put my bow on my homemade "crank board", crank it up to full draw and increase the tension, the nock doesn't move any direction except back. The limb tips move very slightly, however.

As for your static methods of measuring nock travel, it is the dynamic movement of the nock as it travels from full draw to its eventual release from the string that matters, and this can only be shown by ultra slo-mo cameras. I wish you were more concerned with facts rather than defending your beliefs.


----------



## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Jabwa- You are missing the boat. Make a crank board that has a table under it that you can place paper flat on it. Using a pen placed at the nock point crank the bow back to full draw. As the string is being drawn back it will trace the vertical nock onto the paper. The important part of the nock travel is right back at the wall. An out of time Cam 1/2 will display an up or down nock travel when pulled hard into the wall...just like Marcus is showing. I learned the method from a book by James Park, a friend of Marcus's. I use this method now instead of creep tuning for the same reasons Marcus gives. I guarantee that your Hoyt, just like my Newberry with hybrid cams, will show some drastic problems at full draw if it is out of time. That is why a half twist of the buss cables on a hybrid cam can have drastic results. 

The starting point of the arrow, as show by static testing, is every bit as important as what dynamic testing shows. Because we vary the pull into the wall from shot to shot, having perfectly horizontal static nock travel is extremely important. Where that arrow starts is more important than what it does along the way off the string. I highly suggest, Jabwa, that you might listen instead of arguing and you may learn something useful.



> On the cam&1/2 system both cables are not the same length and I do not know if they see the same stress profile. Given these differences is it safe to assume the cables will not creep identically resulting in more noticable synchronization issues? Is the nock travel of a cam&1/2 less sensitive to cam synchronization than the nock travel of a twin cam?


The cables on a cam 1/2 are not loaded the same. In fact the buss cable is under some extreme stress and the control cable very little, especially when the load is transfered to the cables at full draw.


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

AK Doug:

I understand exactly what Marcus is saying and my crank board does have a piece of plywood under it and I have traced the nock movement as it is drawn back by the bow. However, the nock does not move up and down at full draw as you increase the pressure against the wall- the limbs, however, will move if your timing is not perfect. Take an out of time bow, draw it back to your anchor, now pull really hard, Does the nock move or does one limb move back? You can see this very easily because your sight will move either up or down in your peep.

Marcus asked me what my definition of nock travel was and I gave my definition. He has given two definitions so far (up and down movement as the bow is being drawn and up and down movement at full draw as the tension is increased). Both of these are STATIC MEASUREMENTS, and do not take into account the inertia of the bow and the fact that the limbs rotate around the pivot point which is not in the center of the bow and in fact is below the arrow by nearly 2".


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Jabwa
Nocking point travel is movement of the nocking point ANYTIME in the draw cycle. This includes around full draw and when pulled against the wall. It does not matter if there is a wall there it is still rotating the cams and part of the draw cycle. 

Now go out and put you cam 1/2 a few turns out of time and test your nock travel at full draw. Does it move up or down? If so then go and shoot the bow and vary your pressure against the wall and tell me how accurate it is. Be honest now. hundreds of others know exactly what I am talking about here and have found the same results. 
Oh and if you put it out of time and insist that it's still level then you hve the only Cam 1/2 in the world like that. Every one I have tested does the same. 
I mean just think about the design for a minute and it's obvious that it will occur. 
Only around full draw does that nock movement really matter. 

Thanks AWDoug, good to have some backup on what I am saying here.


----------



## KAWABOY-ZX11 (Feb 22, 2004)

single cam for me, i owned an ultratec cam.5 for about a year and was never satisfied with it. im left handed so i pretty much have to buy a bow to test it out, but i dont mind because when i own it i can mess with it as long as i want before i sell it and try something else. i spent more time tring to get that bow in perfect tune then i did actually shooting it (im a perfectionest), i sold the hoyt and bought my ovation and no trouble with tuning what so ever, so im sticking with single cam from now on, if it aint broke im not gonna try to fix it anymore. so in short a single cam is much easier for me to tune perfectly. i set the BH measure the ATA and get the cam in proper rotation and im done. Dennis


----------



## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

*? for Marcus*

You suggested the Old Glory for me and 3D- is that with the binery cams?Don't know much about Bowtech-Looked it up and saw it only with binery cams.I do know that the Freedom cam is less than perfect nock travel.How do you keep the cams or limbs from leaning on these binery cams?


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Marcus, did you miss the post by BobMuley? I think he mentioned that a boy cleaned the "Go-for-it" round at the Big Sky last year using a Cam.5 with one cam in the A position and the other in the F position. He remains the only human being to have ever done that. He never missed a 4" orange clay target all the way out to 65 yards not just one day, but for two days in a row!

I still want to know how you measure nock travel. I tried it just now on my crank board and the nock traveled a perfectly straight line. It simply follows the line of force being applied.


----------



## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> So its a problem with the cables/strings...not of the cam system. I truly believe that if we had better string materials back in the "old days" we may never have known what a single cam is today.
> 
> The moral of the story is get whichever cam system feels and fits best for you, put a good set of strings and cable(s) on it, and shoot the dickens out of it. :shade:


DITTO! All the talk about single cam and all the rest is propaganda.  
With todays's strings the two cam will out shoot anything else.


----------



## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

creepingdeath said:


> I am hearing conflicting reports. I don't want to mess with my bow. I have my local archery shop tune the bow. Which needs less tuning. Single cam or cam 1/2 ? Which tune job lasts longer? Which is easyier to tune? Am getting ready to buy a new Martin Bow. Gonna get the Quest. So there's gonna be string stretch for a while. Please , people explain the differences, simplexides ( is that a word) in tuning. I am looking for which ever tunes the easyiest and which ever cam stays tuned the longest. PLEASE HELP!! CD



BTW, the best advice I can give you is learn to tune your bow yourself.  First, no one will give it as much love and care as you. Second, no one else can tune it to "YOU" as well as you can. It's not brain surgery! Just do it!


----------



## MKD (Feb 8, 2003)

*No tuning needed*



creepingdeath said:


> I am hearing conflicting reports. I don't want to mess with my bow. I have my local archery shop tune the bow. Which needs less tuning. Single cam or cam 1/2 ? Which tune job lasts longer? Which is easyier to tune? Am getting ready to buy a new Martin Bow. Gonna get the Quest. So there's gonna be string stretch for a while. Please , people explain the differences, simplexides ( is that a word) in tuning. I am looking for which ever tunes the easyiest and which ever cam stays tuned the longest. PLEASE HELP!! CD



Creepingdeath
I am by no means an expert when it comes to bows and the people on this site have more knowledge than some pro shop owners but I bought a Hoyt because they advertise never having to tune your cam 1/2 system.
Ok call me naive, but I know little about tuning a bow and thought this would be a great bow for me. To my suprise when I went to the bow tuning threads I see all the topics about tuning the cam 1/2. 

Here are the exact words from the Hoyt add found in Bow and Arrow magazine
June/July issue

" The symmentry betwwen the top and bottom cams of the cam & 1/2 Perfromance System allow for persise tuning and ultimate accuracy. They also are "slaved" together with one harness systaem, allowing them to work together than independently and to fire at the exact same time every time. THIS MEANS THAT YOU NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT CAM SYNCHRONIZATION OR TIMING, making the cam & 1/2 performance system extremely forgiving and reliable. 

By all the treads on timing Hoyts cam 1/2s Hoyt must be false advertising.


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Marketing department writes the ads, not the engineering department. They say the same things about the Uni's, but they need to be "synchronized" also. Either one will shoot very well if things are set correctly. If you just want something setup and then leave it alone for a year or so, you picked the wrong sport! I have never seen a bow that didn't need attention every so often.

By the way, look at the top and bottom cams of your cam.5. Do they LOOK symmetrical?


----------



## contractpilot (Jun 15, 2005)

*String Stretch*

Strings and cables stretch, some interesting tests were done where they took off the shelf strings and put weights on them, measured the stretch over time, amazing. So bows will come out of tune, your have to keep checking them if you want to hit targets.


----------



## Nito (Aug 17, 2005)

MKD said:


> Creepingdeath
> I am by no means an expert when it comes to bows and the people on this site have more knowledge than some pro shop owners but I bought a Hoyt because they advertise never having to tune your cam 1/2 system.
> Ok call me naive, but I know little about tuning a bow and thought this would be a great bow for me. To my suprise when I went to the bow tuning threads I see all the topics about tuning the cam 1/2.
> 
> ...


as said, the above is pure BS! there´s no bow that never needs tuneing, how long the tuneing lasts depends on the string/cable material.
Hybrids that are out of tune shoot like crap, but when tuned, they are very good.
i have some highspeed clips from my buddies Hoyt with nocktravel present, and with nocktravel present, you got problems.


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Hello Marcus, I know people will agrue with you about nock travel. I shoot hoyt but I agree with you on nock travel. You know your stuff, I will give you that. Most people don't shoot well enough to know the difference. They blame it on unsteadyness or something else. A good tuned bow shoots good, a great tuned bow shoots great. As far as nock travel, it is very hard to get a flat path with solo or hybrid. There are to many variables. I think they are over-engineered. I personally liked the older two-cammers for their tune ability. I feel if a solo or hybrid is tuned right, it will shoot consistant. If it does the same thing twice in a row, it will hit the same spot. Thanks for your input, it is very helpful. The truth will set you free.


----------



## boojo35 (Jul 16, 2005)

Marcus lost all credibility when he said that string stretch on a single cam does not effect nock travel. Everything after that was hard to stomach. 3/4 of the string is above the nock so that means 3/4 of the stretch is above the nock which means the nock freakin moves. 

Marcus also states that if a spiral goes out of tune you will notice but a cam and a half would take a few weeks with below average scores to notice it. Hello, a spiral is a cam and a half.

Every bow design probably has some sort of trade off. Quality string and cable materials eliminate most of the problems in most of them. 

I have owned dual, single and hybrid cam bows. I am really fond of the dual and the hybrid. The single cam bow is suseptable to high and low misses if you vary your back tension at all. If they have a draw stop that contacts the limb, they eliminate this possibility, without it though, they seem to have enough of a springy back wall to cause this inconsistency. This problem does not occur with a hybrid or a dual cam bow.


----------

