# US denies Visa to World Champs bound India Archery team and coaches



## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

That's just bizarre.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

This happens more than you think. The AZ Cup issues invitations to countries that ask and want to shoot in AZ only to have the State Department deny visas.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I think in cases like this it's rash to pass quick judgement of everything going on. While it is surely disappointing for the youth involved - the official clearly had some concerns that caused him to deny the visas. Perhaps they will be able to work it out, get another official to review the re-applied for visas and get sorted out.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Nope.
http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/repor...uth-championship-after-us-denies-visa-2092730

The Archery Association of India has now decided to withdraw from the Championships as a mark of protest. 

The US Embassy denied even their Korean coach. I can't blame the AAI for believing there is more to this than a diligent US official having concerns. There is reason to believe an injustice has been done.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

TER said:


> ....
> The US Embassy denied even their Korean coach. ...


Is this probably because a South Korean citizens does not need a Visa to enter USA ?

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/visit/visa-waiver-program.html#reference


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> Is this probably because a South Korean citizens does not need a Visa to enter USA ?
> 
> http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/visit/visa-waiver-program.html#reference


Yes, it might appear suspicious to apply for a visa when a South Korean citizen would quality for entrance under the Visa Waiver Program.

But: "If you are eligible to travel on the VWP, but prefer to have a visa in your passport, you may still apply for a visitor (B) visa."

And: "Travelers who are eligible for the VWP may apply for a visitor (B) visa, if they prefer to do so."

Both quotes are from: http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/visit/visa-waiver-program.html#reference


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Is it possible to travel to Canada and then travel by car to the US, entering the US under your passport?

Regards,

Tom


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

This doesn't even make sense.

When you travel to another country....a temp visa is stamped on your passport at the arriving country. Why would an embassy even be involved?


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## erickatgta (Apr 22, 2013)

massman said:


> Is it possible to travel to Canada and then travel by car to the US, entering the US under your passport?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom


still need VISA.....


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

London 2012 had a huge problem with foreign athletes disappearing and never leaving so it does happen but this seems a bit fishy.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

TheScOuT said:


> This doesn't even make sense.
> 
> When you travel to another country....a temp visa is stamped on your passport at the arriving country. Why would an embassy even be involved?


The embassy in India would give the visa to allow them to come to the USA. They would need it to leave India bound for the US. 

Like i said, i hope the US never has to shoot a tournament in India like a World Championships. Payback will be coming.
Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, I don't know that statements like this one are very productive.



> i hope the US never has to shoot a tournament in India like a World Championships. Payback will be coming.
> Chris


Neither you nor I know all the details, and we shouldn't pretend we do. Nor should we assume that simple mistakes or negligence by one official cannot be forgiven either by them, or by us.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Got to love our government. People who want to follow the law and go through the hoops to be legally allowed to enter our country get harassed, and yet they do nothing about illegal aliens coming in and punish local government that try to enforce the law.

It is just crazy in the hypocrisy


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

It was suggested to me that i have an anti USA tone to my posts. So i thought i should clarify if that is what people derive from my posts.

I happen to have first hand experience dealing with foreign US embassy when my wife immigrated. They were all powerful omnipotent idiots who couldnt work at Mcdonalds. 


I have no doubt the US embassy in India is any better. 

I am a huge USA fan. I love my country, and i have trained for the last 9 years to represent it in archery.

I however feel our USA archery teams are behind many other countries mostly becuase of politics and coaching. Sorry if i promote and cheer the best in the world in our sport. 

I am under no illusion that the USA is best at any number of things as i manufacture in China at a higher quality than i can manufacture in the USA. I do not blindly jump up and down at everything USA. I want to, but i also know the reality.

I love my country, but i hate incompetence and injustice. 

Chris


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I didn't realize you could get a foreign service placement with the state department with only a High school education. Watch out McDonald's.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"You get what you pay for" is not only true with products, it's true with employees as well.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

If your purpose for entry into US is for work, you need a visa. Regardless of the visa waiver program.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

They weren't entering for work. Participating in a sports competition counts as Tourism. That info is in the link in my post.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

TER said:


> They weren't entering for work. Participating in a sports competition counts as Tourism. That info is in the link in my post.


The Korean coach was on duty. I wasn't referring to the Indian competitors.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

.......having said that, were the Indian competitors, employed by the Indian team? Because that would make all the difference. Potentially. Depends on how they filled up the immigration card.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

I have real life experience with US Customs and Immigration so I lean real hard toward Chrstphr's view. And most of my dealings were before 9/11. Even then it was super high discretionary power. Everyone I know who has dealt with any nation's immigration authorities comes out of the experience infuriated by the absurdity of it all. Anyone who doesn't understand you can absolutely deeply love your country while having no faith in it's government is woefully ignorant. The truth is, if you love your country, you MUST be opposed to your government. This situation is just another example of government hassling people while doing absolutely no good work.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I come from one of the countries on the list of the visa waiver program. 2 years ago I still carried with me a valid US visa, for work purposes.


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

And what is world archery doing ?
To be remembered next time the US is competing to hosts some event.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

TER said:


> I have real life experience with US Customs and Immigration so I lean real hard toward Chrstphr's view. And most of my dealings were before 9/11. Even then it was super high discretionary power. Everyone I know who has dealt with any nation's immigration authorities comes out of the experience infuriated by the absurdity of it all. Anyone who doesn't understand you can absolutely deeply love your country while having no faith in it's government is woefully ignorant. The truth is, if you love your country, you MUST be opposed to your government. This situation is just another example of government hassling people while doing absolutely no good work.


Stupid government tricks like this shouldn't go unprotested. For instance, when my office temporary lost an Indian H1B co-worker in Nogales because of an idiotic and semi-secret technology screening program that kept him out of the country until an indefinite-length FBI screening could be completed, I wrote a passionate letter to my senator. My letter by itself carried little weight, but the combined effect of many other instances like his resulted in a change to the program where the screening was time-limited so that people like him could return to the country in a timely manner. (The U.S. government requires that foreign nationals go outside the country to renew their visa -- to make sure that honest people can be kept out, I guess.)

We have 8-12 million illegals in the country already, and we can't let in a few archers from a National program because they might overstay ??? USA Archery could and should should raise a big stink about this.


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## Varza (Sep 11, 2014)

The problem is that the consular officials don't need to know or care why you are traveling to the US. The burden is on the applicant to provide sufficient proof of ties to their country and that they will return to it. Yes, the consulate people have a lot of power, and a lot of their decision-making is highly subjective. I've seen people get denied for this reason (your whole family will be in the US, why would you return?) while I myself have been approved really easily every time. The difference is in everyone's situation and how they go about filling out the forms. 

It is quite possible that they put the wrong things on the form, or someone said the wrong thing at their interview, and besides there is some discrimination in immigration/visa-granting against citizens of India and China that I know of. It's all rather dumb.

Another problem is that there is no specific visa for athletes competing in events and their coaches - I think there should be, as it would eliminate the grey area of "the coach is going there to work". Honestly, that shouldn't matter, as the coach is working for the Indian federation and not for anyone in the US. 

Withdrawing from the competition is an overreaction and doesn't help anyone. They should reapply, and possibly secure the services of a good lawyer, but then I don't know what resources they have at their disposal (how well-funded they are).

I believe that the entire visa/immigration system needs an overhaul, but it's an uphill battle that you citizens should be fighting. In the end, most US citizens know or care very little about immigration matters, and we immigrants don't have the right to vote for the most part. And even if we did... ah, this is getting too long. It's all one giant, messy grey area that the government has been steadily making worse instead of better...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

HikerDave said:


> Stupid government tricks like this shouldn't go unprotested. For instance, when my office temporary lost an Indian H1B co-worker in Nogales because of an idiotic and semi-secret technology screening program that kept him out of the country until an indefinite-length FBI screening could be completed, I wrote a passionate letter to my senator. My letter by itself carried little weight, but the combined effect of many other instances like his resulted in a change to the program where the screening was time-limited so that people like him could return to the country in a timely manner. (The U.S. government requires that foreign nationals go outside the country to renew their visa -- to make sure that honest people can be kept out, I guess.)
> 
> We have 8-12 million illegals in the country already, and we can't let in a few archers from a National program because they might overstay ??? USA Archery could and should should raise a big stink about this.


The archers should have flown to Mexico and rented a Jeep with high beams. They'd be in as quick as a whistle.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i am fortunate never to have been refused a US visa in my 10 or so visits to the US in the past but i cannot really blame the consuls too much on this instance...

all immigration processes to the USA have been affected greatly since 9/11 and all state officials have chosen to err on the side of caution whenever possible...

US Archery could have done more in this instance,however,to facilitate matters...


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I think the officials must have been watching slumdog millionaire a bit too much. India is one of the easiest countries to get visa into EU/Schengen and considering the amount of business done between India and Schengen coutries and amount of tourists and visitors that are travelling, I hardly see what the problem would be. It's not like the archers of India are picked straight from the streets of Kolkata.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Another AT thread with plenty of outrage, but precious few facts.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Another AT thread with plenty of outrage, but precious few facts.


Let's see if it progresses to its logical AT end, where the facts do come out and it's discovered that the action taken was in fact justified, but the facts are ignored and it ends up being Obama or Hillary's fault.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Let's see if it progresses to its logical AT end, where the facts do come out and it's discovered that the action taken was in fact justified, but the facts are ignored and it ends up being Obama or Hillary's fault.


Na, that would be the texas bowhunter site. That's a textbook pattern there. LOL.

Here, O or Hillary don't get blamed too often. This is the fita crowd after all.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

WA statement: India’s withdrawal from youth championships
http://www.worldarchery.org/EVENTS/...t-India’s-withdrawal-from-youth-championships


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

When I was doing my master's course at uni abou 1/5 of my course mates were from india. I was still involved with Martial arts back then and my friend more so. I helped to bring several teams and training groups over to train with local guys, it was pretty straightforward process and only needed limited paperwork.

But US immigration seems paranoid after 911. My friend gets stopped every time at customs even though he's been in and out very often for work, he has a lebanese name, even though he's born in Finland.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Serious Fun said:


> WA statement: India’s withdrawal from youth championships
> http://www.worldarchery.org/EVENTS/...t-India’s-withdrawal-from-youth-championships


If I believe what I read here, it would be pretty much impossible to field a youth archery team from India unless the entire team could prove that they were financially well-off with strong ties to home. Basically, the starting assumption is that a young applicant is a prospective immigrant and they must prove otherwise.

http://www.immihelp.com/visitor-visa/young-persons.html


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

Sad for the archers, not only for India's team, but also for the winners to come : 
In 1980 Moscow Tomi Jaakko Poikolainen won. Darrel Pace, nor Rick Mc Kinney were there. Was it a real gold medal ? It's not the Olympics, I do not know how good they are, but you get the idea.
If I were to decide for a location to hosts an event that would be a serious concern against the US.

No I am not defending FIFA:wink:


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

India had 24 archers at the 2008 Youth World Archery Championships in Ogden Utah USA: http://www.worldarchery.org/UserFiles/Document/Results/Results/2009/09_WCh_USA/ECOMPC.pdf


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

I dont know the facts and wont pretend to. At least somebody was paying attention and said no to the swinging door.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

crushedeiffel said:


> Sad for the archers, not only for India's team, but also for the winners to come :
> In 1980 Moscow Tomi Jaakko Poikolainen won. Darrel Pace, nor Rick Mc Kinney were there. Was it a real gold medal ? It's not the Olympics, I do not know how good they are, but you get the idea.
> If I were to decide for a location to hosts an event that would be a serious concern against the US.
> 
> No I am not defending FIFA:wink:


Kyösti Laasonen won the next world champs so their non-participation might not be as important as you think. Tomi was shooting at very high standard back then and was in top 5 worldwide for years.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

zal said:


> Kyösti Laasonen won the next world champs so their non-participation might not be as important as you think. Tomi was shooting at very high standard back then and was in top 5 worldwide for years.


...i'm sure both archers deserved to win their golds but i will compare it to someone winning the US Open or any other major during tiger wood's prime but tiger didn't play...

and if both archers were really being honest they would have preferred to win with both darrel pace and rick mckinney participating..

JMHO..


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Point is, we'll never know. Those were the glory days of Finnish olympic archery, like I said, in 1981 world champs Kyösti won with Darrell and Rick 2th and 3rd. Teams was 1-2 with USA edging Finnish team. I think Tomi was 5th or so.

Indian junior team, on the other hand, would have been very competitive, their program is very strong.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

zal said:


> Point is, we'll never know. Those were the glory days of Finnish olympic archery, like I said, in 1981 world champs Kyösti won with Darrell and Rick 2th and 3rd. Teams was 1-2 with USA edging Finnish team. I think Tomi was 5th or so.
> 
> Indian junior team, on the other hand, would have been very competitive, their program is very strong.


But I think that is JMVARGAS' point as well - "we'll never know". Politics interfered with the sport, and so forever will there be a question mark.


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