# Flemish Twist or Continuous Loop?



## wut4dude (Nov 21, 2010)

...oh and it's actually a 2009 Martin Dream Catcher


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Tons of variables to consider. If both are equally well (or poorly) made, the difference in performance will be tiny, with a slight edge going to endless. However, flemish is quieter and more adjustable, so chances are when you get through adding silencers to the endless (if you are a hunter), the performance edge may lean toward the flemish.

Although the string is only a small part of the equation, O.L. Adcock set some flight records with flemish strings. I don't agree with him on everything, but I know he tries to do his homework. When you are competeing in a flight shoot, performance is critical. He wouldn't purposely handicap himself by using a slower string.

I shoot both, but prefer flemish, especially on a new bow, for it's adjustability. Thinking about spinning a new endless just to tinker with--I like to have hands-on experience when discussing things, if possible.

Chad


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

w - 

The material is going to trump any difference in construction techniques. 

Here are a couple of* facts*:
*Endless loop strips can tolerate fewer twists then Flemish splice strings.* The more twists the greater the chance of strand to strand abrasion and the greater the spring effect on shock. Technical note, a zero twist endless loop string is not recommended due to the possibility of ballooning (strand separation) on release. I try to make my endless strings with as few twists as possible. You really shouldn't completely untwist a Flemish string (d'oh).
*Endless loop strings have only two ends, Flemish splice strings have strand count x 2 ends.* The odds on an endless loop string "slipping" are zero; while uncommon on a Flemish, it can happen on a poorly made string. 
*It's easier to maintain consistent tension from strand to strand in an endless loop string than a Flemish.* It's the single vs. multiple strand thing. The "extra" twists in a Flemish string can take up the "slack", but it's a band aid fix - at least in theory.
*Typically most traditional shooters will not notice any real difference in performance between the two.* However, when was the last time you saw a Flemish splice on an Olympic bow? 

Here are a few *myths:
Flemish splice string are more adjustable than endless loop strings.* Nope. The adjustability is purely dependent on the initial number of twists. Same number of twists same adjustability. Maximum number of twists is dependent on the number of strands, not the construction process.
*Flemish splice string are inherently stronger than endless loop string because they have 2x as many strands in the loops. *Sorta, but not really. The breaking strength of current materials is over-kill in all but the worst case scenarios (ie using way too few strands). The endless loop string loops do have a protective covering (the serving), which Flemish strings do not.

Bottom lime: it's a matter of personal preference based more on aesthetics than function for all but a few shooters who can exact or exploit the difference. See note on Olympic shooters above. Both strings types take about the same amount of time to make, but the endless loop string does require more (or bigger) hardware.

Viper1 out.


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## wut4dude (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks Chad and Viper1...that was a wealth of info...in just two post 'ta boot!


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Here we go. Just for the record, I've made well over 10,000 strings, and study them constantly. Strings have been a hobby and a business for over 15 years. You might call me a string nut (or you might just call me a nut).




> The material is going to trump any difference in construction techniques.


If they are equally well (or poorly) made, the strand count or over-all diameter is similar, etc. then yes. *ANY* difference? No. Anyone that knows squat about making a string can make one faster than the other--whichever they choose. There are several ways to slow one down if you want to be biased.



> Endless loop strips can tolerate fewer twists then Flemish splice strings.


In the splices (flemish), of course. In the "body" of the string, it depends. Again, someone that knows what they are doing can build a flemish string with almost zero twists in the main string (body)--there's no reason for that, but it can be done. You can have absolutely zero twists in the body of an endless string, but there's no point in that--it's detrimental to performance.

Funny how that completely contradicts the adjustment comment (adjustment comes from being able to put in or let out twist), but I'll get to that in a second.



> Endless loop strings have only two ends, Flemish splice strings have strand count x 2 ends. The odds on an endless loop string "slipping" are zero; while uncommon on a Flemish, it can happen on a poorly made string.


It's common for endless strings to be made with two, even three colors; therefore they may have 6 (or more) ends. Not that this is a big deal, it's a straw man put up to put flemish in a bad light. It takes a VERY poorly made string to slip (either kind). 



> It's easier to maintain consistent tension from strand to strand in an endless loop string than a Flemish.


I suppose, if you don't know what you are doing. A competent string maker can do just fine with either one. To me it's just as easy, if not easier, to goof up with an endless. Something as simple as overlapping strands on a post (easy to do if you get distracted) will cause uneven bundle tension. Even easy to mess up is keeping the exact same tension on each strand as you wrap them around the goal posts. Since you generally put fewer twists in an endless, you don't even get a "band aid".




> Typically most traditional shooters will not notice any real difference in performance between the two.


Wow--I actually agree! As for Olympic bows...this isn't an Olympic forum, but when was the last time you saw anyone other than an Olympic shooter using all those other gadgets? An apples and footballs comparison, IMO.



> Here are a few myths:
> Flemish splice string are more adjustable than endless loop strings.


Not a myth at all. As noted above, endless typically get fewer twists--some like them with very few if any twists. Ok, no biggie there--unless you have a new bow and want to start out (as is generally recommended) with the lowest possible brace height. When a string only has a very few twists in it, then you can only take a very few out. You won't get a noticeable amount of extra length from an endless like you can a flemish.



> Maximum number of twists is dependent on the number of strands, not the construction process.





> I try to make my endless strings with as few twists as possible.


The number of twists put in, yes. The number you can take out actually does depend solely on the construction process.



> Flemish splice string hare inherently stronger than endless loop string because they have 2x as many strands in the loops. Sorta, but not really.


Yes, really. Flemish strings have the same number of strands in the loops as in the body, or more. Most flemish string makers, when working with lower strand counts, pad out the loops--most any experienced flemish string maker knows this.

Does it really matter? Depends. There is a trend in places where very low strand count strings are popular. The number of strands in the loops on these string really could matter. On standard strings, unless you have a string-eating bow (a rough spot in the string groove, for instance), it won't matter. Except in those cases, a string rarely breaks in the loop--flemish or endless. 



> Bottom lime: it's a matter of personal preference based more on aesthetics than function for all but a few shooters who can exact or exploit the difference. See note of Olympic shooters above.


It is a matter of personal preferance, although both do offer small gains in one department or another. Flemish being more adjustable and generally quieter (although on some bows endless can be very quiet), endless is easier to replicate from one string maker to another and easier to get exact lengths for those who don't have much experience or instruction.

Yep, see the part about Olympic shooters--at least those of you interested in Olympic archery. Those of you interested in setting a new flight record, referance that part about flemish.

I won't try to give anyone a lesson in anatomy, physics, Korean archery, rocket science, paradox, Eastern philosophy, etc. etc. etc.; I won't try to impress you with my eloquent vocbulary and use of overly-technical terms when simple words and statements will work just fine...but I *DO* know my stuff when it comes to strings--at least much moreso than the average "Joe".



Chad


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## wut4dude (Nov 21, 2010)

...very "eloquently" spoken Chad...Thanks!:wink:


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

nicely put, Chad! in truth, very few traditional shooters would probably notice the difference between the two strings....olympic and fita archers, shooting the distances and stuff, no doubt take it to another level...but the average guy would be hard pressed to notice the difference....I shoot flemish now, but if i had to switch over to endless...no big deal....matter or personal preference it seems....

just my opinion.......


lee


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

I like the flemish style bowstring Chad built for me. :thumbs_up


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## wut4dude (Nov 21, 2010)

...well, I just received two sets of flemish style strings from Chad...about two hours ago actually...one for a '73 Damon Howatt 66" recurve 25# at 28"...these were B500 dacron strings...they look as good as they shoot...sweet!...this is gonna be a practice/form bow. I'm amazed how smooth this bow shoots. The other set is for a 2009 Martin Dream Catcher 50# recurve. This set I think is made from D97 and after some minor tweeking...just a few twist out to get to a 7-3/4" brace height...this set on the Dream Catcher shoots LIGHTS OUT!!!...smooth, quiet, and FAST! I haven't chrono'd it yet, but there's a noticeable gain in performance. I'll post some pics shortly...it's just so damn hot outside at the moment here in eastern NC....great strings Chad, Thanks!:wink:


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## whitewolf1 (Jun 28, 2006)

I heard he knits up a nice strang.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Knits? Dang, that's nearly as bad as calling them "braided"! :mg:

I appreciate the good words all the same though.

Chad


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## wut4dude (Nov 21, 2010)

*Flemish Style by Champion*














...here's a dacron B500 string from Champion Custom Strings...just got it today...put it on a '73 66" Damon Howatt Ventura...shoots like it looks...smooth...













...and this is a fast flight string...I think it's a D97...on a Martin Dream Catcher...at about 53#, this thing is fast!...great job Chad!:wink:


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## whitewolf1 (Jun 28, 2006)

LBR said:


> Knits? Dang, that's nearly as bad as calling them "braided"! :mg:
> 
> I appreciate the good words all the same though.
> 
> Chad


Just seein if'n you was awake.


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## Gordon m (Sep 2, 2010)

Chad is the Man when it cones to strings ,,I think most Recurves will be a little faster with Endless ,,But a skinny flemish will shoot right with it and with padded loops would be easy on nocks,, For those that don't know how to build there own Flemish string Chad has a video that several trad guys around here used on doind the twist ,,,I have deen building endless for years and also build flemish ,, all my trad bows have flemish Twist on them however I would not hesitate to run an endless on sny of my recurves <even the old fred beer bows had endless srtings on them from factory


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Flemish Twist, easy to make, great skill to have. Get Chad's DVD Doing the Twist. You'll be twisting in no time.


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## Pikkuhannu (Apr 3, 2009)

Longbow i use flemish, looks better and i can make one myself.

Horsebows i use endless, but can´t make one. Must try flemish on these too....


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I guess I have a "preference" for endless. But that goes back to over 10 years ago and my compound days. Endless was the first type I learned to make. But thanks to LBR I've learned how to make Flemish. And you know they're good, and they're REAL fast to make in comparison. I guess as you've found out wut4, the difference is in the string material. Yeah, LBR really is THE string guy.


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## sandyhills (Oct 11, 2014)

This is old but/and I'm pretty new; I'm having a Bowstringdepot.com make me a fast-flight 20 strands of BCY X/continuous-loop for my first bow ever.


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