# Canadian cash tour



## Miss Pink (Nov 5, 2007)

sounds reasonable to me, but i'm just a newbie. what do i know!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't think archery is hip enough a sport to bring in big sponsorship money. Canada is not a large enough market to interest manufacturers. Then again if every archer promised to buy a Mercedes, they might foot a hundred grand or so


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

"If you build it, they will come"....is that how the saying goes?

I'm not sure a national tournament in Canada would fly though, realistically how many archers would attend a shoot in Saskatoon, for example, to try for chances at a $5000 grand prize....after offsetting the costs of travel etc, it would almost hardly be worth it for anyone but the winner. 

As was mentioned the archery industry in Canada is so small comparatively to the US that it likely wouldn't generate enough interest to make the sponsors line up. That would then put pressure on the local/hosting club and municipality to generate support, but being that archery isn't exactly mainstream for most would the local businesses even pay attention.

I would be fun though.

BTW, Miss Pink.....No0bs are people to.:teeth:


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

The first roadblock is some of the potential sponsors, as was mentioned already. I found out pretty quickly that at least one of the 'major' distro's in Canada wasn't even willing to pay equal to cost for an advert in the Alberta Bowhunters Association newsletter. We're talking about a magazine that's going directly to it's market. I was kind of surprised and disappointed by the rejection. However, I have since realized that archers unwittingly advertise for free every chance they get. So why pay for the milk, when you're getting the whole cow for free? Think about that the next time you proudly put your bow, arrows, release & sights in your siggy. That's free advertising and endorsements via word of mouth - the best and cheapest advertising going.


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## daryl niekamp (Dec 7, 2006)

Iron Mike said:


> "If you build it, they will come"....is that how the saying goes?
> 
> I'm not sure a national tournament in Canada would fly though, realistically how many archers would attend a shoot in Saskatoon, for example, to try for chances at a $5000 grand prize....after offsetting the costs of travel etc, it would almost hardly be worth it for anyone but the winner.
> 
> ...


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

I really don't think that archery can be compared to the traditional prize money tournaments (golf, darts, poker etc) as it is simply too small the % of the population that participate or care about the outcome. Even in the USA where they have the largest number of active archers, professional or non-pro, there are very few paying tournaments. Is it worth it for the amount of $ spent to go to a tourny that you might win to maybe make $10,000.00? The ASA had big payouts in the early '90's but they had some huge sponsors that helped make that happen. Those sponsors are gone and so are alot of the pro shooters. 
Where would golf be if Buick, Nissan, Ford etc. didn't host these tournaments where people stand to win serious $$$ ?
The ASA or IBO or the indoor series wouldn't be that well attended if sponsors didn't pony up contingency cash for cracking a top 3.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

I have always felt the biggest reason for archery's position is that Joe Public just can't see what is happening inreal time. Golf, they can follow the ball all the way to the cup or see it just fad off at the last second, even darts keep going until the end when it really counts. Archery you see a guy at full draw then a second later an arrow in the target either in or out, right now archery is about as popular as it's going to get in it's present form.


I have said many times, until we are shooting at each other get used to what we have.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

Sean McKenty said:


> I have always felt the biggest reason for archery's position is that Joe Public just can't see what is happening inreal time.


Lighted nocks, slower bows, marked kill zones


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

but they still can't see the arrow in flight like golf/bowling and the game certainly wouldn't be like we have now.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

cdhunter said:


> two years ago the tenex club along with national archery supply put on a five grand winner takes all tournament, that was reasonably attended. The club to the best of my knowledge had a few problems to over come and did not make a profit, but it also was the first time the event was put on. Most archers left looking forward to attending the next time the event was held.



I attended that shoot and got beat by the target bales. My target just happened to be on a target bale that had a big hole in it and when my arrow hit it bounced out and hung down out of the 10 ring after hitting the bottom of the 10 ring. Never-the-less I vowed to come back the next year even though it was a 14 hour drive for me from central Illinois but alas the tournament never materialized the next year. If the payout went deeper into the field you would have a lot of folks coming to shoot, believe me. Our very own Presley`s Midwest Open in early December paid out 15 places in the Men`s open division alone. I believe giving all the money to 3 places is a mistake and keeps the attendance artificially low. Archery actually is very easy to telecast especially if the camera is looking over the shoulder of the archer. The arrow stays in the viewfinder more easily than a golf ball does. The European Pro Archery Tour is going to show us how to do it this coming outdoor season. I am planning on attending some of those shoots Lord willing and the creek don`t rise.


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

Sean McKenty said:


> right now archery is about as popular as it's going to get in it's present form.
> 
> I have said many times, until we are shooting at each other get used to what we have.


I disagree, but with a .....but. Who'd have imagined that watching _poker_ on TV would become what it has or bowling, or curling....talk about boring at its finest.

I think archery _could_ as well, but it would require a visionary with serious money and a flair for entertainment. Will it ever become that....I doubt it also....but wouldn't it be sweet if it did.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

I could easily see Poker going global simply because the audiance can see what is happening and see the possible outcomes, what did it requier a camera, the money was already there. Archery...full draw less than second later its over no time for anticipation no build up and no variable in the game in or out no draw hook or fad and most of all no big money willing to wait long enough to see a decent return on investment, if archery gets to this level you can be sure it will involve a bow and arrow but little else. The simplest route is to decrease the top payouts and increase the depth of the pay, it needs a pool to draw from


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## Miss Pink (Nov 5, 2007)

I have to agree with Iron Mike. The sport needs someone who understands it and can commentate well the archers are setting up their shots. Also let the viewer know what is at stake. Even if it just starts out at Nationals, worlds with a Canadian participating or something similar. Starting small is where it's at. 

I know for sure that we'll never have the following of hockey. I feel we could get a following somewhere near curling if we had the chance to televise the sport.


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

I think we're starting a little to big worrying about television. lets start small even a oak tree starts as an acorn. Curling didn't attract big advertisement in the beginning. as for travel, how many of us travel to the nationals be it 3d or fita. When the 3d indoors nats where here last year I remember a whole bus load from Alberta, was anybody worried about recouping their travel costs? better yet how many Canadians travel to vegas every year? How many have finished in the money? In the last five years only two maybe three Doris Jones, Jay Lyon and maybe Deitmer finished high enough last year to cover part of his Plane ticket. 

I remember watching Dead X shoot the nine hundred and hearing his vow to return (we are working at it steve ) to avenge his loss,and his words to spread the payout further down the placings.His words were not lost that day , figuring out a pay schedule and how deep it could go sounds real easy but figuring out whats fair to the winner and the rest of the competitors isn't.

as far as big sponsors, even golf didn't attract big sponsors until the late fifty's, and even then it mostly paid for the advertising. Spits has already aligned them selves with Canadian archery through the FCA. At the 900 north Sylva was willing to pay an additional $1000 to the winner if they were shooting a bowtech. Even the super bowl utilizes multiple sponsors to pull off that monstrous event. Aligning with one major sponsor would be hard, aligning with many little sponsors would be much easier sell, knowing that they aren't the only ones putting something at risk.


as for the the only interest we would find being other archers guess again, I can name more that one local archer who has graced the pages of the local news papers please pardon the spelling Kevin Tataryn, Doris Jones (multiple times ),Joannha Lachance, Candace McIntosh, Rob Cox a whole magazine article devoted to kevin Evans, Jay lyons and Finally Alan Gunter. Most of these articles were shown to me by fellow employees some who have been out to watch various tournaments, only to ask why I wasn't in the acme and friends frog hunting tournament which I didn't even Knew existed. I personally was amazed by the number of media outlets that waited patiently for the out come of the tenex leagues vegas sunday tournament, the winner receiving an all inclusive trip to you guessed it vegas. Good ol Alan has been on the bube tube a grand total of three times in the past year and a half alone


build it they will come, promote it properly they'll beat your door down. as for television we have one small advantage over our southern neighbors its called the crtc which stipulates that any form of broadcasting requires x amount of Canadian content. when curling first hit the idiot box the only bonspiels you saw were the briar and the scott soon people wanted to see the Canadians and it just grew from there poker is no different.

I read an article once with Pete Shepley founder and ceo of pse he stated, that in order for our sport to grow we had to promote the target side because it offered us the largest opportunity growth. as an archery teacher (using the term loosely) I see a lot of parents looking for a sport for johnny but are scared of archery because they don't understand it. I feel there is a window open opportunity for the archery community in Canada to step through we just have to figure out how and take baby steps so we don't shoot our selves while we're at it. 



pinto, grey eagle sorry for calling you guys out but some words of wisdom on the subject would greatly be appreciated. 


for me it's back to the asylum thanks for listening to me ramble:wink:


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

Sean McKenty said:


> I could easily see Poker going global simply because the audiance can see what is happening and see the possible outcomes, what did it requier a camera, the money was already there.


Watching poker on TV is as about as exciting as watching paint dry. I'd rather watch pop-up foamies or a sudden death Vegas round. At least I understand what's at stake and I know there's not as much going on in the way of blind luck.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

A poker game lasts a couple hours compared to what 15min for the shoot off, not enough time to even cover the competitors in it let alone the game itself. Some sports are just not TV friendly or are just to cost prohibitive unfortunaly archery is both.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Unless outside corporate sponsorship is available, all that we will ever be playing for is our own pocket change. Plain and simple.

And honestly, there is about a snowballs chance in hell that will ever happen on this continent in any reasonable form. There simply isn't enough of a market to justify putting corporate money on the table for target archery competitions.

The only reasonable expectation would be from companies involved in the hunting side of archery, as hunters still make up the vast majority of those with a bow. Likely 95% of all archers are solely hunters. And most of them couldn't care less about any form of target archery. If the masses don't get all warm and fuzzy about shooting targets (even foam ones) why would corporations want to sink advertising and sponsorship dollars into it.

Archery in North America is all about hunting, target archery is nothing more than a fringe hobby. And I agree with Sean, the popularity target archery enjoys now is about as good as it's likely to get.

The new Pro Tour being developed in Europe will be interesting to watch, to see how it pans out. Given that target archery in Europe is much more of a main stream activity than it could ever hope to be here, I would think that if the format would work, it has its best chance there.


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## LeEarl (Jun 1, 2002)

I would love to skip over the border for a few shoots like this :thumb: I think that each city could help raise money to put on a shoot like this. If they understand that shooters will come and spend money they will be nore open to help out. But then you need someone to sell it to them. I live in a pretty small town (under 3000) and have Polaris Ind. here to help raise $$ for a few things. We also have Marvin Windows less then 20 min away. Both places really help out for events like this... You never know where it would go if the right person opened the right doors :nod:


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

While I do love archery, I don't see it ever being a "television" game. I'm with Sean here, the action is too fast/slow... A round takes too long, a shot goes by wayyyyy too quickly. 

Compare archery to other things on TV. Take poker (which I absolutely LOVE to watch BTW), it's got entertaining conversation between participants, virtually everyone has played/understands poker, and viewers can critique decisions made by the players, plus we get extra information that lets us laugh when a player actually made a bad decision (folds with far and away the best hand). Take darts, it's probably the most similar. Again, virtually everyone has played darts, so there's a familiarity aspect to it, the games go quickly but the darts go relatively slowly. There's a bit of strategy or change to the game as players have to go out on the double or bull.

Now take archery. Indoor formats are same thing all the time, YAY! he hit the ten. and again. and again. and again... Now, outdoors in a 3D venue would offer a little more entertainment, seeing archers shooting at different targets, with the possibility that they actually miss... But, how many people have ever shot a bow, not too many, how many Joe publics out there want to watch people shoot at animals (foam or not), I suspect not too many.

Just don't see it happening. As an add on to a hunting show like buckmasters, the popups are entertaining in small doses, beyond that, it's just not going to happen... IMO


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Sean has it right. We think too highly of ourselves in believing that any current format of archery competiton has the slightest public interest, and without that, no big money will ever come.

If you need further proof, look at the US regarding gun shooting. Millions and millions of shooters, but how much target pistol or rifle competition do you see on TV? 

The only sport shooting you ever see is the "tactical" pistol stuff, and the targets are all knock-down types that everyone can easily see. Nothing like real competitive pistol/rifle shooting is ever on TV for the same reasons that target archery isn't - you can't follow the "action".

Many of you have seen the ESPN stuff with the knockdown archery targets, and it gets an occasional look from the general public, but it's just a novelty thing and not "real" archery competition. 

And the real proof is this: with a potential target rolleyes audience of millions of gun shooters, no genious enterpreneur has yet figured out a way of making money out of televising gun shooting competitions. So that in itself should tell you that with a target audience that we have in archery that is about about 1% of the size of the potential gun shooting audience, what are the chances of making something like that happen in our sport?

And or couse it doesn't need to be pointed out that without TV there is no money to be made from advertisers or sponsors.


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## 3D-GURU (Apr 1, 2003)

*Organizing bodies have to be on board first*

Last year, at the FCA 3D Canadian Nationals, spectators were not even allowed on the course. 

How can we ever expect to grow the sport, let alone turn it into a bigger thing, if we don't even allow the people who might be interested, or are already interested but have not really been exposed to the sport, to at the very least watch it?? I know for a fact that there were a number of people that came to the Wolf's Den to watch the event (and their place is an excellent one for walking the trails and watching the action), but were told by the FCA that if you were not shooting, you were not allowed to be anywhere on the course.

I am sure that we lost some more potential shooters that weekend. I have taken people with me many times on the course just to show them what it is like, and many of them showed great interest. 

I would love to see something more for our sport, but honestly believe until that sanctioning bodies get on board, we are wasting our breath here, or should I say our typing fingers!!!:beer::beer:

Rob


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Grey Eagle said:


> Unless outside corporate sponsorship is available, all that we will ever be playing for is our own pocket change. Plain and simple.
> 
> And honestly, there is about a snowballs chance in hell that will ever happen on this continent in any reasonable form. There simply isn't enough of a market to justify putting corporate money on the table for target archery competitions.
> 
> ...


That about sums it up. (I wasn't entirely joking with the Mercedes comment earlier). No corp is going to dump money into a vastly limited marketplace.

Archery also does not go out of its way to attract new participants into the target venue. We are our own worst enemies on that one.

It would take a total outsider with vision to create a new form of the sport which had appeal to a wider audience, again not much interest in doing that.

Best you can hope for is the Euro series to take off and maybe we can get an event in Canada, eventually. Like Indy racing or Formula 1, we might make a stop on a tour but doubtful if we could support any series ourselves.

You can always lobby the sports network to see if they will televise FITA world cup events


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

3D-GURU said:


> Last year, at the FCA 3D Canadian Nationals, spectators were not even allowed on the course.
> 
> How can we ever expect to grow the sport, let alone turn it into a bigger thing, if we don't even allow the people who might be interested, or are already interested but have not really been exposed to the sport, to at the very least watch it?? I know for a fact that there were a number of people that came to the Wolf's Den to watch the event (and their place is an excellent one for walking the trails and watching the action), but were told by the FCA that if you were not shooting, you were not allowed to be anywhere on the course.
> 
> ...





Grey Eagle said:


> Unless outside corporate sponsorship is available, all that we will ever be playing for is our own pocket change. Plain and simple.
> 
> And honestly, there is about a snowballs chance in hell that will ever happen on this continent in any reasonable form. There simply isn't enough of a market to justify putting corporate money on the table for target archery competitions.





LeEarl said:


> I would love to skip over the border for a few shoots like this :thumb: I think that each city could help raise money to put on a shoot like this. If they understand that shooters will come and spend money they will be nore open to help out. But then you need someone to sell it to them. I live in a pretty small town (under 3000) and have Polaris Ind. here to help raise $$ for a few things. We also have Marvin Windows less then 20 min away. Both places really help out for events like this... You never know where it would go if the right person opened the right doors :nod:


ok guys I'm noticing a couple of trends developing and I agree with a good portion of them, and everyone has had valid points.


1. we as archers are doing a poor job of promoting our sport and this extends to our governing bodies as well. I too have noticed spectators attending events just to see what this is about, only to be shut out because they aren't participants and nobody takes the time to explain what is going on. one of the best events I've seen put on, is the Vegas Sunday put on here in Winnipeg. The reason for this is Jeff Gunter hamming it up on the mic. He's not particularly funny and he does try, but he explains whats happening to the spectators and the archers between rounds and makes everyone part of the event. This is a small thing but makes event well attended.

2. Dennis is right we have to find outside money! The only way to do that is to have archers approach their employers and ask what their employers are looking for in return for their support ,and SHOW their employers what demographic they could be reaching, that otherwise might look the other way. I work for a small company in a much larger corporation, when my daughter was to appear on local tv for shooting they inquired as to what kind of assistance she may require. I told them thanks but the season was over and I would talk to them at the start of the next season if they were still interested. Imagine my surprise when I returned from Christmas holidays and the major share holder inquired as to the start of the next archery season. Doing a little research he realized that some of the larger archery company's, could use some of our sister company's products, and this could be a good way of entering into this particular market. Imagine a can of full throttle energy drink with an arrow blowing through it with the words "going to the max" filling a black screen. Do you think that might interest more than hunters? do you think you just showed coca cola how to enter a market they never even thought of.

the third and final thing is the venue which to use and how to present it. for spots, match play is the only way using an elimination ladder with a set number of arrows matchs and in the event of a tie closest to the center, so people can love or hate who's in the final pairing. As for jawing between shooters causing friction I'd say from h.m murdochs and cath8trs playful attacks here on at,we have that part covered. 3d wouldn't be as hard as you guys may think. Replace the fluffy animals with small protables and make the shots entertaining like shoot through a cinder block up hill to target at say thirty five yards just hard enough that people say oohhhh and for tv's sake flow it the same way you would follow golf different archers at different targets cutting back and forth between them.


ok I lied that wasn't the last thing finally television. the ONLY WAY we will get an form of coverage is to pressure channels like tsn to give us results of major tournaments such as worlds and junior worlds and the Olympics. Networks are always looking for the next thing to increase their ratings. If we being all Canadian archers write ,email and phone to inform them of when, these events are happening, we will eventually get coverage of some sort, may be not big in the beginning but once the wheel starts rolling who knows. we can start by asking them to broadcast the European pro series when it starts.


I agree that until we've fixed what we can fix to improve our image and attract others to this sport, we will be no better than a fringe sport to hunting in north america. as for a Canadian cash tour for now the best we can do is make sure everyone knows about the smaller cash events held close to home and put out the invite others a little further away, and instead of local clubs having competing events join together make the purse bigger and alternate who holds it each year.


I think My head is going to Explod:darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

thanks grey eagle for weighing in with your opinion it was appreciated
:thumbs_up


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Just out of curiosity. Sean or anyone who has the data (or a reasonable guess) what is the total membership f the FCA? I'm curious as to what lobbying strength is _*potentially*_ there.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

Yes what is the membership of the FCA and what exactly is the demographics of the association? Membership province by province etc. 

Maybe our approach is all wrong, maybe what we should do is a play down style leading up to one big cash shoot something like the brier? That wouldn't be televisable but it should create interest. 

Or we just orbit like we are now and add a cash division to the Spitz, like in the "old days" before it was the Nationals.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2008)

From the 2006 annual report

Membership

2001-3165
2002-3106
2003-3420
2004-3808
2005-4425
2006-4379


Clubs

2005-220
2006-151......almost 70 clubs gone



members by province is quite telling

Alberta is high at 1049
Quebec was the highest for many years but now is at 199
Ontario went from 88 members to 533

most vary about 200 members


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## OPC/RD (Aug 16, 2007)

*Marketing*

To create an audience; tape a would-be episode, place it online and in time, it will come together with sponsorship in tow depending on the numbers/demographics- whatever is planned let me know.


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## Foghorn (Jun 24, 2005)

One of the reasons archery is not a popular as it could be is because of lack of publicity. Publicity form fellow archers, archery organizations, as well as lack of media attention. If the news papers and television doesn’t know about certain competitions how can they cover and publicize these events. We do not have to change the format of our game just create characters to make the event more interesting. Archery in Europe is by far more popular than it is in Canada because of how the organizations publicise the events and make it more interesting, in other words play it up, the game is the same. Take a look at the FITA Worlds, they had over 3,000 seats sold to the general public, they were sold out. Go onto You Tube and do a search on Archery TV and see what comes up, you might be a bit surprised on the coverage availability on FITA events for indoors events, world cup events, the worlds and lots more. The event I participated in was televised live in over more than 7 European countries. It is also growing rapidly in Europe.

Making archery popular in Canada. You might be right, you might have to change some games a bit, after all shooting at rubber animals is not exactly politically correct, but Field and FITA are non offensive to all spectators. I totally believe that archery can become far more popular that it is right now, you just have to be in the right place at the right time and pitch the sport to the right people. But believing that it is over before we even get started is not the way to get this done. Don’t forget most of the televised sports that we take for granted like Golf, Tennis, Ball Room Dancing, Darts, Bowling, Curling and even Poker were not main stream activities, yet they are televised on a daily basis all over North America.

How many people do you know shot a bow when they were a kid? How many of these people get the opportunity to shot a bow again for the first time since they were a kid and fall in love with it again and want to learn how to shoot. Almost everyone I have met trying archery out again since they were children love it. We need to create more interest like the OAA at the sportsman show and there booth. One step at a time and before you know it, it might happen. If you build it they will come!

These are just a hand full of my thoughts on this topic and I could probably go on for hours and hours on this topic. I could be wrong and before I seen what I seen at the worlds I might have agreed with all of you, but not now. I have SEEN and I know it can be done. It just might not be tomorrow, but you never know.

My 2 cent worth

Dietmar


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2008)

I think they are looking at how to make it better here in NA, the Fita championships both you and Kevin won got zero play here, those interested had to go look for it. Also the insertion rate for TV is very low compared to NA, that makes for more local interests. In NA the goose that got shot with an arrow at a park got more play than archery got in the last 2 Olympics. There is alot more involved than just whats on the surface, and alot more work than most are willing to put out and not get paid for


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*I call and emailed all the .....*

Toronto News radio and television stations when the FCA Target Championships were in Orangeville (Caledon) this past year, I touted Foghorn's recent worlds, and Crispin and the boys successes and not one even followed through on it. Honestly no one even cared.

Kinda tells you where archery lies in the sports world ..... even PeeWee hockey gets promoted on CP24 and 680 News


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## Foghorn (Jun 24, 2005)

pintojk said:


> Toronto News radio and television stations when the FCA Target Championships were in Orangeville (Caledon) this past year, I touted Foghorn's recent worlds, and Crispin and the boys successes and not one even followed through on it. Honestly no one even cared.
> 
> Kinda tells you where archery lies in the sports world ..... even PeeWee hockey gets promoted on CP24 and 680 News



So! Does that mean you stop trying?

If I would have listed to everyone that told me I wasn't that good, I would have never won the worlds, heck I would of never even know what the FITA World Championships were for that matter. I would still be shooting rubber ducks at a local level!

Think about it. 

Dietmar


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2008)

I don't think anyone is saying to stop trying, but to realise that it is a much bigger task than just calling the media. Also that you have to also understand the powers that are playing against you at every turn. We have some of the best archers in the World but outside the archery industry we get a yawn. Our household has 4 World gold medals, I got plenty of coverage in 1990 in our local paper and radio in a very small town, Fiona has 3 94/04/06 and got zero but she lived in Toronto but even when we moved to Windsor after I wrote the artical for them still nothing. We managed to get coverage for Dana for the Canada winter games, It not easy and some of us get tired of it all.


D after you shot your first OAA target champs I knew then your rubber duck days were over.


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

Do the Clubs do much on the local level to promote the tournaments held at their facilities? My guess is, no......but I'm newish to Clubs and newer to scored events and tournaments.

Example, after seeing the 2008 Tournament schedule as published on the OAA site and seeing a shoot at Caledon for this weekend and after checking their website for details; I had to go as far as contact the Tournament Chair to even see if it was open to spectators. 

If the archery community has to go to those lengths to get details about a tournament how is Joe Public supposed to know the event even exists?


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*no ..... it doesn't .....*



Foghorn said:


> So! Does that mean you stop trying?
> 
> If I would have listed to everyone that told me I wasn't that good, I would have never won the worlds, heck I would of never even know what the FITA World Championships were for that matter. I would still be shooting rubber ducks at a local level!
> 
> ...


just stating a fact, that's all.

The Toronto media (at this time) doesn't recognize archery as a sport worthy of their attention ..... if 15-20 people call in, maybe that would change, but it won't stop this one man from trying.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

I think it's a good idea to expose smaller media outlets to the sport and work our way up. I've been on TV 3x for archery things. Look where that's gotten us


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Iron Mike said:


> Do the Clubs do much on the local level to promote the tournaments held at their facilities? My guess is, no......but I'm newish to Clubs and newer to scored events and tournaments.
> 
> Example, after seeing the 2008 Tournament schedule as published on the OAA site and seeing a shoot at Caledon for this weekend and after checking their website for details; I had to go as far as contact the Tournament Chair to even see if it was open to spectators.
> 
> If the archery community has to go to those lengths to get details about a tournament how is Joe Public supposed to know the event even exists?


Clubs have a hard enough time getting enough volunteer hours out of their members to keep the club afloat on a daily basis. Who do you think has time to look beyond their own club backyard? 

Do clubs do anything on a local level to promote the sport........... they ARE the ones promoting the sport on a local level.

They provide and maintain the facilities that afford archers, members and the public alike, the opportunity to participate in archery.

Most have some type of instructional program instituted that provides the non-archery public the opportunity to try the sport. This includes providing facilities, equipment, trained and certified coaches to run such programs.

The vast majority of clubs in the Province host tournaments, or fun day events that are open to the public. Events that take many many hours to plan and execute.

A good number of clubs have leagues running throughout the year, again to the benefit of local archers.

Some clubs provide day camp opportunities during the summer months.

Some provide opportunities for advanced instruction.

A good number have Junior Developement programs in place.

Some host corporate events, which promote the sport to new segments of the population.

Some do community work, such as hosting Girl Guides and Boy Scout members for learning events.

The list goes on and on....................... All of it done with volunteer hours from dedicated (non compensated) members.

Exactly how much more do you think clubs need to do?


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

russ said:


> I think it's a good idea to expose smaller media outlets to the sport and work our way up. I've been on TV 3x for archery things. Look where that's gotten us


Same here Russ 

All it ever got me was a couple of video tapes that my kids and family can laugh at


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Guys, I've been involved in this game longer than any other regular here, except maybe Sean, and believe me, we've been trying for years and years. Archery will always be nothing more than a novelty to the general public.



Prove me wrong - if there's anything significant in public acceptance 10 years from now, assuming I'm still alive I promise to do something embarassing in public for all of you to laugh at and say "I told you so"....


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

Grey Eagle said:


> The list goes on and on....................... All of it done with volunteer hours from dedicated (non compensated) members.
> 
> Exactly how much more do you think clubs need to do?


Get the word out!!!

You are exactly right in everything you said......but how much of the general public knows any of that? The clubs (read: members) are the ones who need to support the expansion and well being of the sport in their communities. 

I was in Rockwood for over 3 years before I knew that Royal City Bowmen 
even existed. It took me over 8 months after that to finally reach and talk to a person that could give me membership information. Two years later and I'm still not a member...... because of my own doing.

Likewise Guelph Rod and Gun Club, it took me a year to speak to anyone at the club that was related to the archery section. I was turned off by the shear lack of enthusiasm and the apparent lack of interest from the club to support archery........and because of that I continue to take the hour drive to Colby to shoot.

I spent a few years as a Member of the Galt Rod and Gun Club and they are just as guilty.

My point is, it's OUR fault the sport in our communities go unnoticed......and we should do something about it. We all have the resources.


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*how .....*



Stash said:


> Guys, I've been involved in this game longer than any other regular here, except maybe Sean, and believe me, we've been trying for years and years. Archery will always be nothing more than a novelty to the general public.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove me wrong - if there's anything significant in public acceptance 10 years from now, assuming I'm still alive I promise to do something embarassing in public for all of you to laugh at and say "I told you so"....


embarrasing :wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

First off thanks Sean, for posting that info. I find the stats for Quebec quite disconcerting, I always thought they carried the flag on this one.

WRT media exposure. I think archery needs to get a little less introverted and a lot more savvy. Any local clubs, or the FCA for that matter have a youtube or other online video account? It's an uphill sell to get any local media coverage but if you have a video camera amongst the membership an online account at least lets you point folks to something tangible. An interview with Dietmar about winning the WC would be of interest I think. Perhaps we should think less about who will air it and a little more about what we have as resources to be aired. Gold medal winners usually make good copy and following some around with a camera to see how they shoot with some commentary might fly.

That requires more volunteer work (sorry Eagle). While promoting the sport by hosting shoots for scouts and guides if of course worthwhile, there is more to bringing a club / sport to the forefront. I think archers really need to start looking at external stimulus, and that really seems to be a hard concept (been that way ever since I can remember). Most successful sport clubs really go out of their way to imbed themselves into the local community. By this I don't mean hosting benefit shoots because that is internalizing once again. I mean that if there is a charity event (or any type of community event) you have folks from the club out there flying the colours. You get a team on board in club shirts to run the local Terry Fox run, be present at the local car wash, cook for the charity breakfast to benefit the homeless, collect stuff for the Christmas Sally Ann food drive or whatever but you make sure the club identity is prominent while you do it. By building relations with the community you get and interest level and an acceptability that you never reach with purely internal events.


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

Hutnicks said:


> First off thanks Sean, for posting that info. I find the stats for Quebec quite disconcerting, I always thought they carried the flag on this one.
> 
> WRT media exposure. I think archery needs to get a little less introverted and a lot more savvy. Any local clubs, or the FCA for that matter have a youtube or other online video account? It's an uphill sell to get any local media coverage but if you have a video camera amongst the membership an online account at least lets you point folks to something tangible. An interview with Dietmar about winning the WC would be of interest I think. Perhaps we should think less about who will air it and a little more about what we have as resources to be aired. Gold medal winners usually make good copy and following some around with a camera to see how they shoot with some commentary might fly.
> 
> That requires more volunteer work (sorry Eagle). While promoting the sport by hosting shoots for scouts and guides if of course worthwhile, there is more to bringing a club / sport to the forefront. I think archers really need to start looking at external stimulus, and that really seems to be a hard concept (been that way ever since I can remember). Most successful sport clubs really go out of their way to imbed themselves into the local community. By this I don't mean hosting benefit shoots because that is internalizing once again. I mean that if there is a charity event (or any type of community event) you have folks from the club out there flying the colours. You get a team on board in club shirts to run the local Terry Fox run, be present at the local car wash, cook for the charity breakfast to benefit the homeless, collect stuff for the Christmas Sally Ann food drive or whatever but you make sure the club identity is prominent while you do it. By building relations with the community you get and interest level and an acceptability that you never reach with purely internal events.


All of that right there is worth a second look........well said.:cheers:


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Iron Mike said:


> Get the word out!!!
> 
> You are exactly right in everything you said......but how much of the general public knows any of that? The clubs (read: members) are the ones who need to support the expansion and well being of the sport in their communities.
> 
> ...



My whole point (and gripe) Mike is that there is a strong attitude amongst folks that "THEY" should do something about it.

Well who the hell exactly is "they" 

None of this to follow is aimed directly at you, so don't take total offense 

But in a day and age when google will fill your screen with reams and reams of information about any given subject, it took you 3 years to find Royal City Bowmen :doh: 3 years????? Christ, I can type in basket weaving and find out who in my area partakes in the pasttime. You didn't find Royal City simply because you had neither the inclination or desire to do so. No access to the internet, no problem, ask an archer you know. That doesn't work, thumb through the yellow pages and find a retailer who sells archery products. You telling me The Bow Shop couldn't tell you who the local club was in your area?

You weren't looking!

Do clubs do enough......... not likely, but most do the best they can with the resources they have. And I don't know of any that would refuse the offer of an additional hand......... so by all means put yours up :wink:

The one thing that has any chance of helping our sport grow, is to stop the attitude that it is someone else's responsibility to do so.

Want growth, get involved.

Cheers


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> First off thanks Sean, for posting that info. I find the stats for Quebec quite disconcerting, I always thought they carried the flag on this one.
> 
> WRT media exposure. I think archery needs to get a little less introverted and a lot more savvy. Any local clubs, or the FCA for that matter have a youtube or other online video account? It's an uphill sell to get any local media coverage but if you have a video camera amongst the membership an online account at least lets you point folks to something tangible. An interview with Dietmar about winning the WC would be of interest I think. Perhaps we should think less about who will air it and a little more about what we have as resources to be aired. Gold medal winners usually make good copy and following some around with a camera to see how they shoot with some commentary might fly.
> 
> That requires more volunteer work (sorry Eagle). While promoting the sport by hosting shoots for scouts and guides if of course worthwhile, there is more to bringing a club / sport to the forefront. I think archers really need to start looking at external stimulus, and that really seems to be a hard concept (been that way ever since I can remember). Most successful sport clubs really go out of their way to imbed themselves into the local community. By this I don't mean hosting benefit shoots because that is internalizing once again. I mean that if there is a charity event (or any type of community event) you have folks from the club out there flying the colours. You get a team on board in club shirts to run the local Terry Fox run, be present at the local car wash, cook for the charity breakfast to benefit the homeless, collect stuff for the Christmas Sally Ann food drive or whatever but you make sure the club identity is prominent while you do it. By building relations with the community you get and interest level and an acceptability that you never reach with purely internal events.


Hutty,

I am heavily (possibly too much  )involved in one of the largest and most successful clubs in the Province. I could speak to you for hours about what the club has done to promote on a local, and Provincial level. Up to and beyond what you mention.

And what I can tell you is that at the end of the day Stash is right. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

Cheers


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

Grey Eagle said:


> My whole point (and gripe) Mike is that there is a strong attitude amongst folks that "THEY" should do something about it.
> 
> Well who the hell exactly is "they"
> 
> ...



"They" is me. I was a member and did nothing but use the grounds.....didn't participate in the club outside of my own agenda. Guilty as charged.

Thats why I say what I'm saying. We, me, us, need to do all we can to promote what we love doing.

As far as Royal City, yeah, 3 years.....I didn't look, you are right-on about that....but thats because I honestly had zero idea a club existed for me to look for. 

I admit to not being an involved archer over the years, and my encouragement goes out to everybody to step up and let people know about it, and their clubs. I promise to do what _I_ can.

:cheers:

btw; no offense taken Eagle. :cheers:


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2008)

I could sit here and type for days on end on the stuff many of us did far beyond anything mentioned here for the sport, Breakfast television, Dini Petty show at least 6 times etc, countless interviews with the stupidest interviewers ever trying to get some positive light on the sport no matter what area it was in. 

The simple reality is that it is short lived and many of us are realy tired of playing promoter as an unpaid full time job, archery survived without the media before and will survive after. I personaly feel we are best suited to promote ourselves by running good stable tournaments, if the media shows up fine if they don't I am not going to lose any sleep over it. I firmly believe that the media brings nothing to the table we need to cater to.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Grey Eagle said:


> Hutty,
> 
> I am heavily (possibly too much  )involved in one of the largest and most successful clubs in the Province. I could speak to you for hours about what the club has done to promote on a local, and Provincial level. Up to and beyond what you mention.
> 
> ...


 Eagle, no one id doubting your (over??) involvement in club support, it is well recorded.

Stash is right, on several accounts. BUT, and here is a big issue I have, with the sport itself. It needs to look to external stimulus and will not. No body embedded in the sport will move for change. Over and over and endless debates about a different format or a shorter field or 3d round or time limits or anything and they all go to one point, change nothing and do nothing. There is very little evolution going on here and that is not by accident. I swear to god that if someone showed up at the national orgs doorstep and said "I have 10 thousand new members waiting to sign up right now but you have to change the target face." They'd tell him to take a hike. The reason this sport is not evolving is because WE don't want it to, and history has some good examples of what refusal to change brings.


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## Miss Pink (Nov 5, 2007)

Coming from a small community I have always been involved with helping the community. GreenArcher22 and I are willing to help out at any event. I will even put up money to get T's made with Colby Archery League or something to that effect. I bet if I called local Legion here in Guelph they could tell me of an event that they could use help at. I know it requires some of my time and I am willing to give up some of it to help the sport grow. 

Gray Eagle is right most are already heavily involved in their club. With that being said there isn't a club or community group that exists that has all it's members participating. If our clubs had more members to draw on there would be more people in essence to help out. Thus helping the current members that are admittedly spread to thin. 

That is my $0.02.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2008)

Hutnicks said:


> Eagle, no one id doubting your (over??) involvement in club support, it is well recorded.
> 
> Stash is right, on several accounts. BUT, and here is a big issue I have, with the sport itself. It needs to look to external stimulus and will not. No body embedded in the sport will move for change. Over and over and endless debates about a different format or a shorter field or 3d round or time limits or anything and they all go to one point, change nothing and do nothing. There is very little evolution going on here and that is not by accident. I swear to god that if someone showed up at the national orgs doorstep and said "I have 10 thousand new members waiting to sign up right now but you have to change the target face." They'd tell him to take a hike. The reason this sport is not evolving is because WE don't want it to, and history has some good examples of what refusal to change brings.



Yuo know we were told exactly that and we did change many things to suit them, we didn't tell them to take a hike but we knew what was going to happen.....alot of talk of why they didn't show. We did have a full time promoter at one time and we did what they said but again anybody that has been in this for any real length of time knows the out come.

We even went to the media, CTV,CBC etc, the programe director at CTV told us to start shooting at each other. Many posting here make it sound like this is something new to try sorry but your alittle late on this one. We have been programed to believe that media coverage is our end goal to bring the sport on a higher plain... sorry but having been there done that for decades I stand by my premis that they bring nothing to the table. We host a big shoot we call the media if they show we politely answer all the interviewers questions play it up at little and move on because a week later its over.

I said it in another post, the goose that got shot by an archer in a park got more air time than the last 2 Olympics did, that should scream our place in the media world.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Well, Iron Mike and Hutnicks...since you two seem to be the most interested in this issue and you don't live too far apart, why don't you get together over a coffee and plan out some ideas and get the ball rolling? 

Or are you just going to voice a few opinions and then sit back and leave the work to the usual suspects? :wink:



There was a thread a few months ago about some new FCA 3D rule that people were complaining about here. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=565010&highlight=fca

I posted in part


> Rather than whining about it here on AT, why not have everyone who has a concern contact the FCA and let them know? If you do care enough, someone has to follow through. There are at least 4 posters here who disagree with this motion - assign one to find out what's going on and report back, and then you can organize a protest.
> 
> If you can convince a Board member or maybe Kathy Millar that you have a good point, you can ask her to include your position in the FCA mailings list and get your opinion out to the general membership. Enough agreement will get the decision reversed.


How far did anyone get with that one as a follow-up?


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

Lets back up just a wee bit and re-address the initial idea. Television and media coverage notwithstanding, is the idea as posted by the OP (see below) feasible and/or wanted at the local level? Can that interest then be groomed to facilitate a larger tournament down the road?



cdhunter said:


> Now if clubs across Canada could join together with sponsors in their own cities this could work. . We are all willing to travel to vegas, what if we could develop our own event of this magnitude.


I'm in agreement with everyone that states that the media has no interest in our sport.......lets agree to close that door for now. My suggested focus starts at the club level.....with the members. If there is interest at that level I see no logical reason why cdhunter's idea couldn't begin Provincially and eventually expand to a National style shoot.

How many active clubs do we have in Ontario anyway?

I've been an active archer for about 8 years but I'm new to this organized tournament stuff. I guess being the new guy looking in.....maybe my perspective is a little different. Maybe I've just gone off the deep end:noidea:


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## Xslayer (Feb 10, 2003)

I have to agree with Stan and GE, first off this is NOT Europe it is Canada, and look how popular the Juniour World Hockey Champs are here, (Go Canada GO!! shameless plug.) But over in Europe hockey is not on the same level as it is here. I doubt it can ever be the same.

Like Sean and Stan I too have seen alot of attempts to popularize this sport but they all are go at the start but fizzle out, the biggest bump in attendance I have seen is right after the realease of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, everyone wanted to shoot after that one.

Unfortunatly it gets down to what the networks can sell as prime time and this just does not hold a candle to even Horse Jumping, if your not shooting then Archery to most is just not a riveting sport to watch but it is better than watching the grass grow.


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## daryl niekamp (Dec 7, 2006)

*Exactly!!!*



Xslayer said:


> I have to agree with Stan and GE, first off this is NOT Europe it is Canada, and look how popular the Juniour World Hockey Champs are here, (Go Canada GO!! shameless plug.) But over in Europe hockey is not on the same level as it is here. I doubt it can ever be the same.
> 
> Like Sean and Stan I too have seen alot of attempts to popularize this sport but they all are go at the start but fizzle out, the biggest bump in attendance I have seen is right after the realease of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, everyone wanted to shoot after that one.
> 
> Unfortunatly it gets down to what the networks can sell as prime time and this just does not hold a candle to even Horse Jumping, if your not shooting then Archery to most is just not a riveting sport to watch but it is better than watching the grass grow.


So all I have to say is let's forget about the advertisement....
and we all get together and chip in our hard worked earnings. let's payout...
and play. It's called the OPEN!!!!!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Sean McKenty said:


> Yuo know we were told exactly that and we did change many things to suit them, we didn't tell them to take a hike but we knew what was going to happen.....alot of talk of why they didn't show. We did have a full time promoter at one time and we did what they said but again anybody that has been in this for any real length of time knows the out come.
> 
> We even went to the media, CTV,CBC etc, the programe director at CTV told us to start shooting at each other. Many posting here make it sound like this is something new to try sorry but your alittle late on this one. We have been programed to believe that media coverage is our end goal to bring the sport on a higher plain... sorry but having been there done that for decades I stand by my premis that they bring nothing to the table. We host a big shoot we call the media if they show we politely answer all the interviewers questions play it up at little and move on because a week later its over.
> 
> I said it in another post, the goose that got shot by an archer in a park got more air time than the last 2 Olympics did, that should scream our place in the media world.


 Sean, I've long been a believer that network tv is of no use to archery as a rule. If you look close I am suggesting that use if youtube or its many brethern is a way to start coverage of events. Once again that requires a skill set not generally available in most clubs, good camera decent editing software and perhaps somewhat witty yet informative commentary (Whos Canada's version of Slippy??) 

The CTV commentators comment surprised me not, though if you had that on tape CBC might have aired it Had Canadas version of the Global Village Idiot,(from MM) do an interview with one of the CAC's members on an offshore Scarab at full throttle in chop on the lake here. Maybe someday we will get thinking journalists.

Stash. I am still thinking the impetus will have to come from outside the sport. First rule of marketing is have a product you believe in and clearly with the exception of Dietmar, that is not the case here.

It'll be some 20something freeride Xgamer with a quarter kilo of titanium in his right femur from one too many hard rides, who trips over his sisters long ignored PSE Optima on the way out the door and grabs it and his bike to go into the scrub and stop every couple of humps to pop a stump for a break and move on. He'll get 6 friends who dont know any better to come out one Sunday and Alpine freeride archery will be born. The guys looking to give their bodys a break will take it up just because and some promoter from some soda brand that needs a boost will jump in. It'll become an X sport and "real" archers will have fits about violating the spirit of the sport while kids continue on with self taught methods that will give the high priests of BEST archery apopleptic fits of frustration mixed with envy. Some marketing genius will stage a mega event down the Cabot trail over 3 days and FITA will try to step in to take control only to find that they ran into hip 20 something X game marketeers who can suck a buck out of anyone with breath and know a thing or two about protecting rights. The Swiss lawyers will get through one discovery meeting only to find that X Games inc now owns all rights to the use of the term Archery related to sport cause nobody else thought of it, and they'll scurry back to some mousehole in Europe and re evaluate that staff job at Lindt. Meanwhile Easton makes a last ditch effort to control one more avenue of archery only to find that after serious experimentation riders have found the PSE deputy junior is the perfect bow for the sport and if you chop 1.5" off the limbs. even better. Easton scurries off to a mousehole in the states (maybe the Dakotas) to lick his wounds after finding out just how mutch push the cola corp's have. Louis Garneau comes out with a cycling jersey with built in rear quiver and sells more than he can produce. The NFAA instantly outlaws it as there is no BHFS integrated quiver class and threatened garment protests terrify the entire membership. Ted Nugent found at a cyclepath testing a Kona refused to comment.
Next year some other bikers finds his kid brothers abandoned Alpine Micro compound and the cycle(pun) starts all over again.




And of course.......The Giant Ants come down and eat Tokyo


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

wow 

when I started this thread I had no idea how deep the feelings for this particular issue would run. Things we all seem to agree on.

1. the Television for the foreseeable future is not our friend.
2. this has to start small and grow
3. outside money in some form will be needed to help make the jump from small to big
4. in the different clubs to few give way too much for those who pay their memberships and just do squat!!!!

on the television issue the only thing we can do is keep pestering. As I was watching tv to night it dawned on me, with lots of help and a little know how, if we worked together, maybe we could make our own coverage of this years nationals both indoor events and outdoor events and submit it to wild tv just a thought. some pressure from our Albetra brethren may actually get it on the air.


Start small and grow. In Manitoba right now we have the Vegas Sunday. It is a small event with a solid out of province support I've seen archers from Saskatchewan and North Dakota attend this event. Iron Mike, Hutnicks maybe you guys should have that coffee. Grey Eagle and Stash why don't you join them give them some guidance so they can avoid some of the pot holes you guys have hit along the way" fresh tars on old oars helps keep the boat moving" an old naval saying meaning that new people can only help move the process forward. Rumor has it that the 900 challenge will be making its return,just not in 2008. some one mentioned a Brier format this could the direction we need to move in.

Outside money it has to come from some where, we just have to figure out where and how. big corporates follow small business for their leads so instead of trying to attract super cola lets try attract Uncle Willy's restaurants instead. When the sales man for super cola notices that the restaurant has posters up for these archery events and then goes to the local chain of convenience stores and sees the same posters and both are sponsoring the event soon super cola will hunt us down to see if they can sponsor us before duper cola does, and yes this is how it happens. My nephews uncle on his fathers side has a old fire truck converted into a portable hot tub sponsored by Coors. Before that they were sponsored by the local sports bar, The Coors rep made the offer two weeks before Labatts showed up to make their offer.

Unfortunately there are far to many Grey Eagles doing the greater good for the rank and file members of their organizations who sit around and do squat. the easiest solution I have ever seen for this is simple, if you don't help you pay instead. When my daughter was playing soccer the community club use to collect a volunteer deposit of $100 which was returned to the families after completing x number of volunteer hours. Those deposits which are not returned do to lack of desire, could then be split to pay the following years memberships for those that volunteered. You will be amazed how much people are attached to their money and suddenly want to help.


Iron mike, Hutnicks keep us posted with what you guys come up with! I've never been to southern Ontario, I'm sure you guys will come up with something good and make it worth the trip, and by all means post it here in the Canadian forum where most of us go before we check regional shoots.

and finally Russ your surrounded by some great people out there in wild rose country. Just get everyone out of travski's combine and see what you can come up with. The peg to cowtown is only thirteen hours by car not counting stopping in oak lake to pickup reed:wink: oh yeah I have to stop in Chestmere lake and break, I mean break in my buddy's new deck. Crap I better bring bail money.


If we start small and support one another, then and only then does this have a snowballs chance. And if we fail at least we tried and laid the ground work for those who follow just like Sean, Grey Eagle, and all those before us.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2008)

The biggest thing is to run what you have well and professional,what ever media is willing to come you need to fully understand that it will be very short lived. Media never brings archers, archers do, if they are happy more will come.


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

cdhunter, I enjoy watching your enthusiasm  It is refreshing...... don't let us naysayers hold you down........ go out and get it done  

Seriously, nothing would thrill me more than to be proven wrong on this issue. I'd happily turn into a cannibal (eat a little crow :wink: ) If things worked out  I'm betting that Stash, Sean, Xslayer, and the rest of the old guard would feel the same way.

Fresh blood, fresh eyes, and a fresh mindset are always good. Start small, do it well, and make it fun 

Maybe Hutty is right, you'll need to think outside of current boundries. But I also think you will need to be realistic about your goals as well. Recognize your market, as small as it is. This sport is of no appeal to anyone else other than those involved in it. And target archery is only appealing to an even smaller demographic of archers at a whole. 

Foghorn mentioned 3,000 seats filled in Liepzig. Think about that, a world championship event, held in a part of the world where archery is actually popular and only 3000 seats could be filled. Likely the majority of those filled by friends/family/sponsors of the participants.

Counter that with a exhibition US college football game held yesterday in Toronto. 30,000 seats filled. I think you can see the parallel I am drawing here.

But, I'd be happy to see whatever some fresh faces could come up with  And would happily participate.

Cheers


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

People get excited about NASCAR. Sedans racing around an oval track. I'm a firm believer that NASCAR is popular because the sponsors grew it from grassroots and told people that it was something to get excited about. Sure some people watch for the odd wreck or two that might happen, but over all people have their favorite racers and follow them. The fans that watch don't race. I think that if we could get the bow/arrow/beer companies involved in ponying up some real money for the pro's in 3D and maybe some of the spot shoots shooter and fan attendance would really go up. It will never be on a NASCAR, PGA or even American soccer scale, but I think we could be at least as big as bowling or dare say poker. I think 3D if marketed right could be the break through game for archery.


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks for the compliment Grey Eagle: darkbeer: Hopefully we will be able to do the old guard proud and I used the word "we" for a reason. One person alone won't make this happen; together we can. By the looks of things, two great events were shot this weekend, one in Cafac the other in Brandon. Let's see pictures guys and get them sent off to the amateur section of the local papers with event results. We have to start somewhere. 


Ooh, they brought me the white jacket again!:wink: Time for bed. Goodnight all!


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

wow...TV...media...they cant get it for Vegas let alone a nothing shoot in nowhereville canada....its the way it is, and probably will be for the forseable future.
That being said, there is every chance for us to have bigger/better events in Canada, and maybe even some cash on the line. The Ontario Spring Classic is a great example of what can be built. The problem as I see it is us, the archers...we wait for "they" to organise it...get involved in your club...help organise some club shoots. Once you do that...next time you see a poster up for a shoot in the next town..show up...
We have several big $$$ events in Manitoba...and aside from one dedicated soul from Sask, we havent had anyone from another province bother to show up...$5000 on the line...and the host club struggled to fill the shooting line....they give away a free trip to Vegas every year as well...and again, locals only...
I guess the great thing that this shows, is that if we can get it done in Manitoba with local archers, you can too. Get 30 archers to put up $30 each...$10 goes to the club, $20 to the pot...$600 isnt a bad weekend...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Xs24-7 said:


> Get 30 archers to put up $30 each...$10 goes to the club, $20 to the pot...$600 isnt a bad weekend...


Well, around here it would be simpler to just hand our $20s to Dietmar directly and save ourselves the shooting fee. 

But seriously, another of the problems is that while it's great to have a few world class archers shooting locally, it does keep the less talented shooters away if the entry fee is too high. If you're paying big bucks to shoot with no reasonable chance of winning, you need to have all sorts of goodies offered to make it worthwhile, and that runs again into the problem of lack of sponsorship dollars and volunteer organizing help. 

You can't run a money shoot with payoffs based only on entry fees. Do you believe that the $10 million payoffs at PGA golf events come from 200 golfers paying $50,000 each to enter?


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

The OAA has had the OPEN division at each of their championships for years (I think Sean's era implemented this). Each registrant pays the normal fees and an additional $20 for the pot. 

The most participants I ever remember is maby 5. As Stan said, no body registers because they don't want to "give their money to D". The OAA is looking at (aka it's not final) adding to the pot and making the OAA portion split (not all the money goes to first) starting during the outdoor season. 

What kind of a split would make people pay to play? What kind of money would need to be on the line?


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

nice to hear from you Ed! one of the things that Ed and I failed to mention about the Vegas Sunday, held here in Winnipeg is the format. Archers are flighted by ability, and only shoot against archers of their own ability. Regardless of age or sex. these rankings are determined by a qualifying score. Now tenex correct me if I'm wrong, the event is limited to fifty archers made up of 5 flights, each flight limited to 10 archers per flight. the exception is the platinum class where the top nine advance to the shoot off and the winner of the gold flight being given the option to forfeit their right to the gold flight prize and join the fight for the Vegas trip. no more than 20 points separate top from bottom in any given flight. this years platinum shoot of came down to Rob Cox a wheel chair athlete and Kevin Tataryn with the victory going to Kevin. One of the things that makes this event so successful is the fact it is held ONCE a year and is the only event using this format on the abam schedule. When the 900 challenge was created, they went to great lengths to create a format that followed traditional rules with a twist, that place people on equal footing hence the two rounds 45 arrows each. This Forced the indoor specialist to have to stretch their consistency for an extra five ends makes for an interesting day at arrow 43 when the bodys asking the brain whats going on here.

After all my rambling here is my point. Any cash event has to include all archers from all levels, for there to be sustained interest. If the elite are going to play for all the marbles hold a pro am event the day before, so those who lack the skills to shoot against the elite, can shoot with elite in a team event. This helps the elite get a feel for the range, while making everyone else feels like their part of the event. And creates atmosphere for day two when fred who has no clue who ED Wilson is, cheers for Ed because during the pro am Ed took time to show him how make sure all his nocks were set for proper vane clearance. Even though fred is now a spectator we've made him a participant by including him, and that my friends is what people strive for is to be part of whats going on around them,:wink:


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## willyqbc (Sep 15, 2003)

> There was a thread a few months ago about some new FCA 3D rule that people were complaining about here.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...&highlight=fca
> 
> ...


not to highjack this thread But in regards to this issue.......I contacted Jude Hooey (VP of 3D) and directed her to several website threads I started discussing this issue. As a result the FCA rules committee has put a hold on this rule until it can be further discussed at the meeting in Dauphin. Not everyone in the archery community is apethetic! :darkbeer:

In regards to the comments on the original topic that the media has nothing to bring to the table for us, I disagree. If archery in this country is ever going to become a sport where the elite can actually make a living from it, the media is essential. They do have something to bring to the table, they just apperantly feel that we have little of value to offer them, in other words they don't believe we can generate ratings and therefore $$$$. I don't have the asnwers as to what we can do to entice them, but its clear from a lot of the comments above that what we are doing currently isn't it. 
One thing I do think we are lacking that other "non-fast paced sports" like golf have is enough competition at the top levels. At national level archery events you can go through the categories and in many instances you can easily pick out the winner or at least the top 3 because generally the gap between the few elite and the rest of the field is quite big. compare that to golf where at the Majors you have 50% or more of the feild having a legitimate shot to win. Or lets look at poker for that matter, its huge on TV these days and it thrives on the personal drama that every hand can bring, there is tension and anticipation as to what will happen on any given hand with lots of dramatic upsets. In my opinion for sports to survive on TV they need one of two things....action or drama, we certainly don't have the fast paced action, and with the low percentage of archers we have at an elite level, then to have those split into many different categories we are also lacking the drama. Figure out how to create a sustained dramatic environment that promotes big rivalries with the possibilty of the "big upset" and you may be able to attract an keep a viewing audience.

just my opinion
Chris


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Stash, you and I both know that we will always be competing for our own money. It is the reality.
That being said, $30 a couple times a year isnt a big deal to donate to the Dietmar fund, and has been mentioned, the shoots can be organised in such a manner that it is flighted. You spend $30 to go to the movies...a round of golf....yet we cant get more than $15 to enter an archery shoot...
Or how about establishing a money class at the Canadian Indoors....surely we have enough "Pro Staff" archers in Canada now who would put up an extra $50 to make it worth while. Same could be done for the Indoor 3-D Nationals, Outdoor 3-D Nationals, and FCA Open...sure, we are competing for our own money...but how is that any different than when we all choose to donate to the Chance/Dave/Reo/etc fund in Vegas, Iowa, NFAA Indoors, IBO Worlds, etc etc except that we could do it at events we already attend, and perhaps put a bit back in our pockets once in a while....


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

The OAA has the open class for many years now and we handed out soem decent cash the 3-D went as high as $900 for first and payed 1 for 3. Kitchener paid decent as well. When I won it I got over $800 and 7th still got over $200. THe Open class worked well when it was anybodies game. I said that when a pecking order is established the class will fall off. It never took of the same way for indoor/target/field because that pecking order was already there. Now we pay the extra $20 and it primarly get payed out to the usual suspects but it does keep those away from the "softer" shooters to play for 1st/2nd/3rd oin the F/S class. I would rather place 4th in Open than win in F/S. 

Adam, the OAA did pad the pay out before by raffeling of several bows.

Like I said before, this is certainly nothing new it is just time for others to step to the plate, some of us are tired


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

*This just in*

I was talking with the sports editor of the Winnipeg sun today, and he agreed to print results of archery events held locally here in Manitoba. The only catch we have to supply them. So here's there expectation from us.

1. schedule of provincial indoor events so they can post the next up coming event in the amateur section on Fridays.

2. Email results to the stats desk no later than Monday with any event pictures that may have been taken.

3. spoon feed them archers to interview.

4. keep them up to date of major happenings in the sport.


in return they will keep a spot in the stats section for tournament results, and run regular features on archery similar to local curling results. 

As far as I'm concerned this is a small baby step forward for the sport here in Manitoba, we just have to stay on top of it! Is it money now, the answer is a simple no! is it any real extra work? again no, we do most of what they're asking for any ways, we just have to do it faster to meet deadlines. The biggest advantage for us is next to the exposure is we supply and control the content of whats printed to some extent. The humane society shows them a picture of a goose shot in the park, we give them a page of how Manitoba's top ten archers braved the shave for cancer. Stat can releases a list showing most kids now have addhlmnop, we give them a page on how archery helps kids with focus problems. We suddenly need sponsors for an event, if we cultivate this relationship properly they may be able to help us walk through that door to the people we need to talk to if they can't help themselves.

baby steps folks baby steps and I'll call this a perfect "x" for our first step


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*cool .....*

good luck, and send us some links when they get published


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

*Jay Lyon Makes the papers*

her the link to the article aboout jay lyon publishd in todays winnipeg sun

http://www.winnipegsun.com/Sports/Columnists/Wazny_Adam/2008/01/11/4767222-sun.html
hope it works


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## Iron Mike (Oct 15, 2007)

:cheers:


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## Summerfeldt (Oct 19, 2006)

Stash said:


> Well, around here it would be simpler to just hand our $20s to Dietmar directly and save ourselves the shooting fee.
> 
> But seriously, another of the problems is that while it's great to have a few world class archers shooting locally, it does keep the less talented shooters away if the entry fee is too high. If you're paying big bucks to shoot with no reasonable chance of winning, you need to have all sorts of goodies offered to make it worthwhile, and that runs again into the problem of lack of sponsorship dollars and volunteer organizing help.
> 
> You can't run a money shoot with payoffs based only on entry fees. Do you believe that the $10 million payoffs at PGA golf events come from 200 golfers paying $50,000 each to enter?


That's why you should have a "PRO" class and the rest of us can shoot in the "JOE" class

Grant


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Keep the 'Joes' shooting for a nice real trophy, no cash. The Pro class can shoot for the sponsor and open fee coin.


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## Summerfeldt (Oct 19, 2006)

That's the way to do it anyone sponsored by an archery company shoots in "PRO" class everyone else shoots in "JOE" class with one equipment class shoot what you bring.

Grant


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Been there done that, why to hard to police and who decides what is a contract. This is the reason why we went to an Open class, the scores keep the softer shooters in the "joe" class as well as the extra registration fees. I am not going to begrudge a guy that gets a bow or arrows etc for free, if he can't hit the side of a barn thats not my problem. There are many reasons for sponsorship, scores I have found are not the main player. 

After all what is more funny than a guy that has a shirt full of sponsors flinging arrows all over the place


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## Summerfeldt (Oct 19, 2006)

You are right getting a sponsor has nothing to do with skill or scores it has more to do with who you know. But there still shoud be 2 differant classes.

Yes it is funny watching some the so called pro staffers fling arrows all over the place


Grant


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

Hey guys just a thought, rather than having all your tournaments having an open class, why not organize one cash event that each class has a little something to shoot for :wink: a class for the pros a class for the joe's and why not a class for the I wish I even was a joe throw a pig on the barbee and make it fun for everyone. for giggles have the pro class compete with genesis bows two practice rounds for set up, no stabs, no micro adjust just your run of the mill rental bows. Its fun watching the big guns have to go backwards and shows the little guy even the pros started some where.:darkbeer:


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