# Why does everyone feel that a 400 spine arrow is not enough?



## Deere270 (Nov 25, 2010)

Why do so many peopl on here feel that a .400 spine arrow is to weak for a 70lb bow? I have read where a ton of people say that a 400 spine arrow is weak and they wouldnt shoot it. So by all means, school me if im wrong. But I have went on a bunch of arrow company's website's, easton, gold tip, victory, carbon express.
And every companys selection chart has my arrow, which is 26 1/2 long at 70lbs with a .400 spine arrow.
Now I have shot 400 spine gold tips for a very long time, and never had a issue with them. Why do I read on here so much where everyone feels a 400 spine arrow is not good for a 70lb setup?
And if it were not good, or "weak" why does every arrow company have their charts saying to go with a .400 spine?
I wouldnt think they would put that if it wasnt safe.....


----------



## bowtechman88 (Feb 26, 2010)

With an arrow that short, your going to be fine. However, when in doubt it is best to go with a stiffer arrow as it will not have as much flex and allow for better accuracy. If you shoot good with it and your broadheads are hitting good then dont change anything


----------



## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

Alot of people blindly follow their computer programs with out adjusting for defaults in the program. Ive seen alot of bad info about arrow spine on here..........


----------



## UTGrad (Jan 21, 2009)

.400 spine is pretty weak with modern bows. Always better to go with stiffer spine.


----------



## Demp223 (Feb 3, 2010)

Depends on cam profile,draw length(power stroke),point weight combo. Also your 26.5" shaft has a stiffer dynamic spine than its 400 rating at typically 28".


----------



## dwagaman (Nov 7, 2010)

I think it is a general opinion. In general I would not think of a 400 being the correct choice for a 70 lbs set up. This is without knowing your arrow length and tip weight. These variables will determine what the right choice is. That being said, if I was shooting 70 lbs and I was right in between a 400 and a 340, I'd choose the 340 everytime.


----------



## magruber12 (Mar 21, 2010)

yeah i would say a .400 would be good with less than a 27.5 inch draw (27.5 inch arrow) any more i would bump it up to a 350 or 340. It also depends on what bow you are shooting, if your shooting a really hard cam: monster, omen, or vector turbo, alpha burner i would go with a 340. Speed plays a lot with spine and the simple charts dont factor this into them, the carbon express adjusted draw weight is the best thing to look at for spine imo, hope this helps. One thing you can do is download the trial for pinwheels softwares and type in your bow specs and everything.


----------



## Up in the tree (Nov 17, 2010)

To many people go off the 30in chart which changes everything. that short of a arrow its pretty stiff i wouldnt worry about it


----------



## vtbowhntr (Sep 21, 2009)

any arrow under 27" with a 75-100gr head should be fine out of a 70lb bow but any longer or a heavier head I would bump up to a 340 spine. It's better to be a bit stiff in arrow spine than to weak you can always add weight up front to weaken the shaft but you can only go so far to stiffen it up by going with a lighter head.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2007)

A lot of people grab the arrows in the box and don't cut em, i cut em, 400 is fine then.


----------



## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

Why go stiffer if it's in between??? If it's that close, I'd shoot both and then see.

Stiffer is NOT better...Weaker is NOT better...Just right is better.


----------



## crow1 (Mar 2, 2009)

I've always wondered the same thing. My arrows are 27.5" and every spine chart I've seen calls for a 400 for a 100 grain tip and hard cam. I even had a bow shop owner suggest 340's for my 60 pound bow!


----------



## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I think it may also be due to charts not being updated to account for modern aggressive cams. Think about it man...just 10 years ago we thought we had a screaming bow if its IBO was 320 at 70 lbs. Now bows are regularly pushing 350 at 70. That is a lot more force and stress put on the arrow. Most of the charts I've seen still only have Soft or Hard cam selections....most dual cam bows today would actually be ranked Xtra Hard...thus why a lot of guys are finding their bows tuning better with a stiffer spine than what the charts call for. That's just my take.


----------



## pa.hunter (Jan 3, 2008)

Deere270 said:


> Why do so many peopl on here feel that a .400 spine arrow is to weak for a 70lb bow? I have read where a ton of people say that a 400 spine arrow is weak and they wouldnt shoot it. So by all means, school me if im wrong. But I have went on a bunch of arrow company's website's, easton, gold tip, victory, carbon express.
> And every companys selection chart has my arrow, which is 26 1/2 long at 70lbs with a .400 spine arrow.
> Now I have shot 400 spine gold tips for a very long time, and never had a issue with them. Why do I read on here so much where everyone feels a 400 spine arrow is not good for a 70lb setup?
> And if it were not good, or "weak" why does every arrow company have their charts saying to go with a .400 spine?
> I wouldnt think they would put that if it wasnt safe.....


 MY ARROWS ARE 29" and at 70 pound the 400 wont group at 60 pound they group is tight . gold tip 400


----------



## papachuby (Nov 19, 2008)

Crow Terminator said:


> I think it may also be due to charts not being updated to account for modern aggressive cams. Think about it man...just 10 years ago we thought we had a screaming bow if its IBO was 320 at 70 lbs. Now bows are regularly pushing 350 at 70. That is a lot more force and stress put on the arrow. Most of the charts I've seen still only have Soft or Hard cam selections....most dual cam bows today would actually be ranked Xtra Hard...thus why a lot of guys are finding their bows tuning better with a stiffer spine than what the charts call for. That's just my take.


What he said


----------



## Deere270 (Nov 25, 2010)

I have just always wondered why so many think its weak. As far as the charts go, you wouldnt think they would reccomend an arrow if it wasnt safe. And you would think that the companys would keep there charts updated to the new bows, if that is the case.
I have just always shot a 400 spine arrow, but now after reading all the negative and about them being weak, I wonder if I should change. Im a 28in draw, shooting a 26 1/2in arrow at 70lbs. My bow for years was a martin, now im shooting a maxxis 31, and every chart puts me at a 400 spine arrow.


----------



## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

Those charts haven't been updated in over a decade. Well, most anyway. Don't you think that with the harder cams and shorter braces (longer power strokes) with most bows today that you'd need a stiffer arrow than 10 years ago? You do. You really do. 

Most arrow charts don't take bow design, finished length or point weights into consideration. That makes them almost useless.


----------



## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Ten years ago , how many short draw people (shorter than 28 inches) could achieve bow speeds of over 300 FPS? Today it is quite easy, so wouldn't you think that since the bows can get more people shooting over 300 that the cams and limbs are putting a whole lot more stress on the arrow, hence the need for higher spine rating vs ten years ago. To all you people that think speed only , go ahead , I will keep using the programs that take into account the variables of the new cams of today.


----------



## cyclepath (Jul 1, 2009)

Some people will push the envelope for alittle extra speed. A 400 will be lighter than a 350 spine so to get the most speed out of the bow they will use the lighter spine
arrow. Same thing if a person is border line between a 500 and 400 spine some will opt for the 500 to get that extra speed.


----------



## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm a 28" draw @ 70lbs and I also shoot a 26.5" arrow. For 3d, I shoot GT 5575s or Velocity 400s with a 100 grain point with no problems. Been shooting this setup for years. I think shooting a short arrow has a lot to do with it. When I hunt, I shoot GT7595s or Velocity 300s with a 125 grain tip with no problems


----------



## Bwana (Jul 29, 2003)

Demp223 said:


> Depends on cam profile,draw length(power stroke),point weight combo. Also your 26.5" shaft has a stiffer dynamic spine than its 400 rating at typically 28".


x2


----------



## buckshot243 (Jul 19, 2008)

Dont you think these companys who build millions of arrows each year, would keep up on their charts, so this kinda stuff doesnt happen....?


----------



## link06 (Mar 3, 2008)

I pay no attention to arrow charts or programs! It's not rocket science like some think! Their are several variables in deciding correct spine but once you learn what makes an arrow stiffer/weaker, anyone can choose the correct spine for their setup! Start with the basic specs of your setup and go from there!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Waknstak6 (Dec 27, 2008)

I cant get a .400 to paper tune with 125 up top at 24.25 shaft length through my invasion at 72lbs and 26in draw.


----------



## whitetail101 (Aug 10, 2007)

Deere270 said:


> Why do so many peopl on here feel that a .400 spine arrow is to weak for a 70lb bow? I have read where a ton of people say that a 400 spine arrow is weak and they wouldnt shoot it. So by all means, school me if im wrong. But I have went on a bunch of arrow company's website's, easton, gold tip, victory, carbon express.
> And every companys selection chart has my arrow, which is 26 1/2 long at 70lbs with a .400 spine arrow.
> Now I have shot 400 spine gold tips for a very long time, and never had a issue with them. Why do I read on here so much where everyone feels a 400 spine arrow is not good for a 70lb setup?
> And if it were not good, or "weak" why does every arrow company have their charts saying to go with a .400 spine?
> I wouldnt think they would put that if it wasnt safe.....


With the high performance bows on the market today, the .400" spine arrows are definetely too weak to correctly match the dynamic spine of the setup. Those shooting what is considered a short draw bow; however, may find the .400" spine will match good using certain arrow lengths and depending upon the intended use of the setup(tournament - field points, hunting - broadheads).

From the sound of it, you are one of those classified as a short draw archer and probably are ok with a .400" spine arrow.

I have not put much faith in arrow charts these days, as the bow technology has advanced beyond the information used by the charts. The charts were designed for bows with "hard cams"(bow's with IBO ratings under 320 fps) and most bows on the market these days IBO above 320 fps. Along with that the charts were designed for 6" or longer brace heights and there are bows on the market today with brace heights under 6".

I have since gravitated to using archery software programs to select arrows for my setups and those used by others. I highly recommend Software for Archers from www.pinwheelsoftware.com for selecting arrows. I have used this program since its inception and have found it to be spot on accurate in selecting the properly matched arrow for a given setup.


----------



## Painted Turtle (Oct 19, 2011)

Gotta agree with Buster...the charts are borderline useless, and, a .400 spine arrow is way weak by today's bow standards!

If you want to shoot that weak of an arrow, enjoy your woes when it comes to tuning. 

Also, so much depends on draw weight, draw length, and a ton of other facts.

And, to show how weak a .400 spine is, I shoot a 26.5" draw length, 70# Darton DS-3800 and I shoot .300s out of it and they are still a little weak.



Buster of Xs said:


> Those charts haven't been updated in over a decade. Well, most anyway. Don't you think that with the harder cams and shorter braces (longer power strokes) with most bows today that you'd need a stiffer arrow than 10 years ago? You do. You really do.
> 
> Most arrow charts don't take bow design, finished length or point weights into consideration. That makes them almost useless.


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

An arrow that has a 400 spine rating...does not have a 400 spine at 26 1/2"...it has a stiffer actual spine. What the actual spine is...I don't have a clue...but spine measurements are supposed to be made at 28" of arrow length (just the arrow). 

So, are 400 spined arrows right for the OP's set-up...guess it depends on how they shoot compared to others...but I can envision how the 400s may be stiff enough.


----------



## 12bhunting (Sep 9, 2009)

With my bow set at 71# I used 400's cut 26 1/2". They flew better than any 340 shaft I tried and I went through alot of different ones. I think each bow is different.


----------



## gymrat70 (Apr 13, 2006)

Rolo said:


> An arrow that has a 400 spine rating...does not have a 400 spine at 26 1/2"...it has a stiffer actual spine. What the actual spine is...I don't have a clue...but spine measurements are supposed to be made at 28" of arrow length (just the arrow).
> 
> So, are 400 spined arrows right for the OP's set-up...guess it depends on how they shoot compared to others...but I can envision how the 400s may be stiff enough.


Winner!


----------



## Cheese1 (Sep 6, 2009)

I always shoot better with a heavy spine arrow. 60#, 30inch draw, 28 1/2 inch arrows. I switch from 400 to 350. Big difference.


----------



## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

UTGrad said:


> .400 spine is pretty weak with modern bows. Always better to go with stiffer spine.


OH PLEASE!!!!!

That's just wrong.


----------



## jack mac (Feb 8, 2011)

Rolo said:


> An arrow that has a 400 spine rating...does not have a 400 spine at 26 1/2"...it has a stiffer actual spine. What the actual spine is...I don't have a clue...but spine measurements are supposed to be made at 28" of arrow length (just the arrow).
> 
> So, are 400 spined arrows right for the OP's set-up...guess it depends on how they shoot compared to others...but I can envision how the 400s may be stiff enough.


Gotta agree. I shoot PSE Bowmadness XS at 72# with a 26 1/2" arrow. I tried both 340 and 400 spine arrows and my set up paper tuned and bare shaft tuned perfectly with the 400 spine and 100gr point. My BHs and FPs are spot on out to 40 yards. GoldTip Xt hunters with 2" Rayzr fletchings.


----------



## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

My Evo 6 at 28" draw 68 lbs wont tune with a 400. Arrow is 27.25 carbon to carbon. I stepped into a 340 spine...tuned. This bow is shooting a 2512 X7 400 grains total weight...302 fps. I remember having a Mathews Ultra 2...with same specs and arrows, was barely in the 280s. I was ASA legal with it. I ain't legal right now. Bow energy goes somewhere and that somewhere is the arrow. I had some Easton Lightspeed 400s explode on me while shooting my 82nd Airborne...literally the back part of the shafts splintered after it left the bow in flight...about 5" worth were splintered off. It happened once and took me about 2 weeks before I would shoot again. Then on my 2nd or so shot I had another one do it. Took all my arrows in and put them under the brightest light we had and flexed them all and found another one cracked in the same exact area. I attribute it to the heavy force of the bow on a weak spine thin walled shaft.


----------



## SouthShoreRat (Mar 4, 2007)

Deere270 said:


> Why do so many peopl on here feel that a .400 spine arrow is to weak for a 70lb bow? I have read where a ton of people say that a 400 spine arrow is weak and they wouldnt shoot it. So by all means, school me if im wrong. But I have went on a bunch of arrow company's website's, easton, gold tip, victory, carbon express.
> And every companys selection chart has my arrow, which is 26 1/2 long at 70lbs with a .400 spine arrow.
> Now I have shot 400 spine gold tips for a very long time, and never had a issue with them. Why do I read on here so much where everyone feels a 400 spine arrow is not good for a 70lb setup?
> And if it were not good, or "weak" why does every arrow company have their charts saying to go with a .400 spine?
> I wouldnt think they would put that if it wasnt safe.....


Would love for you to give me a call when you have about an hour to talk and we will discuss the physics of arrow flight and the anatomy of an arrow.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

crow1 said:


> I even had a bow shop owner suggest 340's for my 60 pound bow!


What is wrong with that? That's what I shoot out of my 61# CRX 35 at 30" and they bare shaft really well, 400's don't.

What is really stupid is how people are defending a particular size shaft in this threadlike its a personal attack if you don't recommend them. So what is so special about using a 400 spine arrow? Or is this just a troll?


----------



## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

I had to turn mine down to almost 60 lbs to get 400's cut at 27" to tune right using 85 grain points. 100's weaken the spine even more. My draw length is 28.5" and my IBO is 308. Once I got it tuned, I measured the centershot and it's dead nuts on 13/16" right where it's supposed to be. Here's 5 shots out of it. It's shooting good enough right now to one hole them probably but I ain't that dang steady lol.


----------



## jack70707 (Feb 27, 2009)

All of my 3d bows are preset with "weak" arrows . 500 spine arrows on a 63lb/28" bow .....


----------



## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Like others have said most of your arrow charts are basically a very rough estimate at best. They do not factor in IBO speeds for each bow and that is the single biggest factor in regards to proper arrow spine. Its not a matter of safety. It comes down to how accurate you want to be and how well you want your broadheads to fly with your fieldpoints. Some might nock the computer programs but they are the best option for a very good starting point when all your info is plugged in correctly. Its possible to get used to these programs and know where exactly you need to be for best overall performance for your particular set up. This is not to say an underspined arrow is unsafe and has nothing to do with that. Its a matter of how much performance you want out of your set up.


----------



## mxz500ss (Dec 30, 2011)

i talked to the tech at GT and he said the charts need to be updated for todays bows


----------



## JParcher (Aug 10, 2007)

Any suggestions for a 70 lb Bear Anarchy Single Cam 29" draw, shooting a 28" arrow? Should I stick with 340 or 350's?


----------



## brd556 (Aug 22, 2011)

Length of the arrow has just as much to do with choosing the correct spine as the draw weight of the bow does. 
If you use a short arrow (under 27") then you will more than likely get tune great with the weaker spine. This 
is due to the fact that cutting the arrow....any arrow, will stiffen the spine.


----------



## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

brd556 said:


> Length of the arrow has just as much to do with choosing the correct spine as the draw weight of the bow does.
> If you use a short arrow (under 27") then you will more than likely get tune great with the weaker spine. This
> is due to the fact that cutting the arrow....any arrow, will stiffen the spine.


Yup. I've seen guys go as far as choosing one particular point weight and then matching their arrows to it and to the set weight they wanted their bows to be pulling. First they would set their centershot and nock position dead nuts. They would start off with an arrow several inches to long and shoot it through paper. Then they would trim the arrows a little bit at a time until they all shot perfect bulletholes. Whatever that length wound up being is where they would leave them. That's one way of doing it but there's more than one way to skin a cat.


----------



## fishstu (Dec 11, 2008)

I switched from 29 inch 340 FMJ' to s to 28 inch Axis 400 when I switched bow tuner. He recommended the lighter Axis 400 arrows - he has older clients that hunt elk with the axis 400 successfully. I use the same 2005 29 inch draw Mathews switchback but it is now set to 71 lbs and shoots the Axis 400 at 285 fps. Before it was set at 62 lbs shooting the 340 FMJ's at 245 fps.
According to the spine charts the 400 is under spined for 71 lbs but the arrows tune and shoot perfectly (the bow tuner say that the switchback cam is " a relatively gradual cam")
I use the same slick trick 100 gr mag and get the same pass thrus with the axiz 400 as with the 340 FMJ's, I believe that the penetration is even better with the very thin Axis 400's. I also like the flatter shooting with the Axis 400's - less chance of missing due to misjudged distance.


----------



## mnrockwarrior (Nov 17, 2011)

My thoughts on too week of an arrow shaft. I'll go stiffer before I'll go weaker!






Just my 2 cents. I also like my hands!


----------



## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

I'm shooting 27" XX75 2213's out of my Evo; they are a .460 spine. They shoot great.


----------



## SARASR (Oct 30, 2009)

bowtechman88 said:


> With an arrow that short, your going to be fine. However, when in doubt it is best to go with a stiffer arrow as it will not have as much flex and allow for better accuracy. If you shoot good with it and your broadheads are hitting good then dont change anything


X2, I'm betting most overlook the short arrow and just see the 70lb. and 400 spine and mentally apply it to their own set up


----------



## dwagaman (Nov 7, 2010)

Waknstak6 said:


> I cant get a .400 to paper tune with 125 up top at* 24.25 shaft length *through my invasion at 72lbs and 26in draw.


Of course you can ....lol


----------



## td051 (Jan 14, 2007)

The charts give you a ball park number. Software is far more percise, if you know what your doing. It really depends on the bow and how well they shoot out of it. Personally, I like lighter arrows, but if I cannot get them to fly properly they are worthless to me. 

Once I know what arrow I want to shoot, then I'll adjust my equipment accordingly. The, I know the arrow is spined perfectly.


----------



## josepht (Oct 15, 2009)

I've got some gold tip velocity 400's cut at 27 1/4" coming this week. I 
'll be shooting them out of an elite answer at 70 lbs, 28.5" draw, maybe 125 gr heads. Is this stiff enough? I'm hoping the 27 1/4 arrow size will help.


----------



## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

josepht said:


> I've got some gold tip velocity 400's cut at 27 1/4" coming this week. I
> 'll be shooting them out of an elite answer at 70 lbs, 28.5" draw, maybe 125 gr heads. Is this stiff enough? I'm hoping the 27 1/4 arrow size will help.


Probably not. But trimming them down and/or using lighter heads will help. And don't forget the limb bolts. They are the most overlooked tuning tool in your arsenal.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Deere270 said:


> Why do so many peopl on here feel that a .400 spine arrow is to weak for a 70lb bow? I have read where a ton of people say that a 400 spine arrow is weak and they wouldnt shoot it. So by all means, school me if im wrong. But I have went on a bunch of arrow company's website's, easton, gold tip, victory, carbon express.
> And every companys selection chart has my arrow, which is 26 1/2 long at 70lbs with a .400 spine arrow.
> Now I have shot 400 spine gold tips for a very long time, and never had a issue with them. Why do I read on here so much where everyone feels a 400 spine arrow is not good for a 70lb setup?
> And if it were not good, or "weak" why does every arrow company have their charts saying to go with a .400 spine?
> I wouldnt think they would put that if it wasnt safe.....


I shot 55/75XT arrows at 70lbs for years. 400 spine arrow. They tuned and shot OK. I ordered some stiffer spined 75/95XT and groups tightened for me personally. Most tournament archers shot a stiff spined arrow. Example I shoot 22's all year long and they tune like darts. Gillingham always said little of stiff shoots better.
DB


----------



## pabuckslayer08 (Nov 19, 2008)

400 is fine for 70lb under a 27.5 inch draw


----------



## pabuckslayer08 (Nov 19, 2008)

mnrockwarrior said:


> My thoughts on too week of an arrow shaft. I'll go stiffer before I'll go weaker!
> View attachment 1275801
> Just my 2 cents. I also like my hands!


That's from a frature not a arrow of wrong spine


----------



## wolbear (Oct 28, 2005)

Demp223 said:


> Depends on cam profile,draw length(power stroke),point weight combo. Also your 26.5" shaft has a stiffer dynamic spine than its 400 rating at typically 28".


Gonna agree with this and add, the reason most say it is underspined for 70# bows is they are shooting 28" arrows or longer and yes they would be underspined for this application.


----------



## va limbhanger (Dec 12, 2008)

Big difference from a 70lb. Elite Z28 and a 70 lb. PSE Omen. I wouldn't think the Omen would group fixed blades very well with field tips, but I could be wrong?


----------

