# pencil pushing



## jakeeib (Jan 8, 2008)

Shoot the course with the "reining hot shots" and make them eat crow!


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

Your right, that'd probably be the best way. I'm a little concerned the pressure would be huge. When I was in the shoot off, I was NERVOUS! When shooting the course with friends, I'm relaxed and having fun. I'm a little concerned that when "everyone is watching" it'd put on a lot of pressure and probably take the fun out of it...but I guess that goes with the territory. I think/hope I can handle that... thanks 4 reply!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

phumb said:


> Your right, that'd probably be the best way. I'm a little concerned the pressure would be huge. When I was in the shoot off, I was NERVOUS! When shooting the course with friends, I'm relaxed and having fun. I'm a little concerned that when "everyone is watching" it'd put on a lot of pressure and probably take the fun out of it...but I guess that goes with the territory. I think/hope I can handle that... thanks 4 reply!


Pressure was made to make champions. There is where you keep brain engaged full time: You try harder with the brain, not the body. In other words, you shoot either a shoot off or against those guys with the same attitude as when shooting with friends.


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## OCD (Jan 19, 2008)

Bring on the pressure!! It raises your tollerance level & forces you to think through your shot . Make-um eat crow!!!!!


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

*Phumb*

I know what you are talking about. A few years ago there was a group of guys that was acused of pencil pushing at the end of the year. One young guy 2 middle- aged and 1 old man. The young man had smoked everybody in the open class and the other 3 in the bowhunter. The claim was nobody had ever heard of them, they can't be that good. All the clubs was at the end of the year meeting. A older guy [ not from the club that they were from ] spoke up to the guy that made the pencil pushing claim. He tolded him, You haven't been around archery long enough to know who they are. The old man 20 yrs ago was about the top limited shooter in the whole south, the young man is his son and he ain't no rookie the other 2 guys have been shooting for years just never competeing. THEY'RE THAT GOOD no cheating. I know, I'm the old man and I trained them all. All you have to do now is check ASA scores and see how they're doing. But shoot with diff. people diff. groups and if you're still winning THAT WiLL Show IM.


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

Their is nothing you can do about what other people think of your scores. If you go to a shoot with the intention of showing people that think you are cheating just how good you are. This may put pressure on you and and have and effect on your shooting. "You will probably try to hard to beat them, instead of just shooting the range". Dont worry about what they think. Go to the shoots and ask the range officals if they would like to put someone in your group. Or ask if you can shoot with any group that is ready to go out. Dont let this get to you or it will effect your shooting. Play the game your way. Let the others guys worry about figuring it out.


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## FULL-BORE (Nov 29, 2003)

Ask the "hot group" to shoot with them.That's the best way.


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## Full metal jack (Oct 29, 2006)

As you mentioned in your post, you practice hard and work at your accomplishments. If your prctice sessions are anything like mine, I'm sure you are hard on yourself, and are constantly working on your shot sequence and form. I for one am a long way from being on the top of the shooting pack but have come along ways. I go into shoots just as I do a practice sesion at home. Mental( concentrate on each shot(shot sequence and form) focus on what you are doing not what others are doing around you. Once you master this concept, you will be on top. If you focus on shooting against yourself winning will be a constant thing(plus the challenge will always be around).


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## Tenpoint TL-7 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Pencils*

Don't worry about them. The cheaters should just pay and fill the score card out in the club house then turn it in. I shot 2 5's today , I could of put down 2 8's instead but that don't help to improve.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

Pier group shooting fixes all!


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## retread (Aug 5, 2007)

phumb said:


> Your right, that'd probably be the best way. I'm a little concerned the pressure would be huge. When I was in the shoot off, I was NERVOUS! When shooting the course with friends, I'm relaxed and having fun. I'm a little concerned that when "everyone is watching" it'd put on a lot of pressure and probably take the fun out of it...but I guess that goes with the territory. I think/hope I can handle that... thanks 4 reply!



Shoot with the local "hot shot", relax and have fun. You may find out you have another friend, if not at least you had fun.


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## dabishop_57 (Jun 22, 2007)

They seem to be a big bunch of arse holes who can't except someone new showing them up.


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## kcarcherguy (Feb 18, 2005)

Agreed, shoot with them. 

I've even asked a guy to shoot with me when I didn't think his high scores were consistent with what I saw on the practice range at the previous shoot. Funny how those kind of guys tend to have an "off day" when they shoot with people that they don't know. Nice thing is that you can call the guy a liar without ever being unfriendly or calling him out...You just enjoy a good day of shooting and let the HONEST scores speak for themselves. 

So, don't be surprised if the guys that are calling you a cheat ask you to shoot with them. The mistake they're making is running their mouths and running you down before getting their facts straight.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

kcarcherguy said:


> Agreed, shoot with them.
> 
> Funny how those kind of guys tend to have an "off day" when they shoot with people that they don't know. (QUOTE)
> 
> Had the same deal on the golf course. Don't you just love to make them have an off day?:wink::wink:


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

I really appreciate all the replies...kinda "pumps me up" a little. Handling the pressure is what separates the best from the rest in just about any competition I guess....I did ask when signing in yesterday, if they had a scorekeeper to follow us around, nobody knew what I was talking about....anyway, the last shoot is a money shoot and they will have offiicial scorekeepers, boy do I hope I at least shoot my average! pretty confident I can and thanks again for the replies!!!


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

If I ever heard anyone say that about me they had better be ready to step up to the stake and shoot with me.That would shut them up in a hurry.


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

*pressure practice*



phumb said:


> I really appreciate all the replies...kinda "pumps me up" a little. Handling the pressure is what separates the best from the rest in just about any competition I guess....I did ask when signing in yesterday, if they had a scorekeeper to follow us around, nobody knew what I was talking about....anyway, the last shoot is a money shoot and they will have offiicial scorekeepers, boy do I hope I at least shoot my average! pretty confident I can and thanks again for the replies!!!


Phump you have the makings right here for the perfect practice session with pressures of a big tournament.
I would go for it a challenge or something to put pressure on yourself you can't duplicate this pressure at home in practice. JMO
Good Luck and shoot straight.


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## heilman181 (Mar 24, 2006)

phumb said:


> Now that I have your attention...Here is my dilemma. Lasy year was my first at shooting 3d. Our local club has 5 or 6 shoots a year. I won a couple and placed at least in the top 3 in all of them. Since I'm the new guy on the block, there are rumblings that I must be cheating...When I mentioned this to my wife, she freaked!!!!... even more than I did. She knows how much I practice and am always tweaking and trying different things. Even beating the "reigning" club champ in a shoot off didn't help as I guess I "got lucky"...The "prize" I am cheating for is a t shirt! Now, I honesly do like to win them, I even like to win if there is no prize...but, if I had to cheat to win, there is no glory in that...I can't be proud of that accomplishment. I'm sure there are people who still would do it, but not me. My buddy that I shoot with is in the same class as me so if there is a questionable call, either way, we are probably harder on each other than a stranger would be! I know there will always be jealous people, just like when someone shoots a nice buck there will be people who say it must of been poached... Part of me says heck with them(can't type what i'd really like to!) the other part wants to prove it to them...What do you "veterans" think???? sorry for long post, guess I had to vent as little....


*Easy solution:

Those who call you a cheater, just meet them at the stake and let your shooting abilty shut them up!*


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

The problem with the "new" guy being called a "pencil pusher" stems from one thing. The regulars don't or won't shoot with "newbies". Three years ago I'd go to shoots and hang out at the registration desk. Groups of 2 and 3 would ignore me or act as though they were expecting another shooter then proceed onto the course. Now *I* don't have to ask people if I can shoot with them because my father and I will wait for a lone stranger or 2 to register. 

Screw shooting with the hot shots. Welcome the guy or gal that seems out of place and make a friend. I now have plenty of supporters if anyone squeals "pencil whipper". Now there are always someone that I've met in the past, a few have turned out to be AT'ers, that I can shoot with if I choose. I still try to "grab" a newbie whenever possible. I shot last year's state ASA qualifier with 2 guys that had never shot a "sanctioned" 3D round. That was fun. 

_However_, there is a fella that just whips everyone at _his_ club (doesn't shoot anywhere else) but I nor anyone else has ever seen him shoot with anyone but his wife, family or close friend(s)!  He shoots 4"-5" groups at 20 yards yet shoots up on the unmarked 3D course. A few people, some I'd never met before, have tried to get in his "group". It hasn't happened yet.  I bet he thinks people respect his "shooting" skills! Every year someone asks, "have you ever shot with "Joe 3Der"?". I just grin and say "No, why do you ask?". They then start stammering and don't answer.............We know what they are thinking! Chronic pencil pushers eventually fade away and always are the butt of jokes!

Shoot with strangers and it won't take long before more people support you than slander you!!


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

thanks for all the positive feedback-you guys are the best!! some good ideas too...one thing you can probably figure out is, nobody will say anything face to face....thats kinda what i meant in earlier post where I said no one knew what I was talking about when I asked if they had a scorekeeper to accompany me...


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## 3DZapper (Dec 30, 2002)

What Kent said. Great post, great advice.:darkbeer:

That is how I've done things up here. I don't carry the scorecards or call if I can avoid it except to challange a call that I disagree with. 

Once you start shooting with more and more different people, you will learn to relax and have just as much if not more fun than just you and your friend shooting alone. Even if the nerves get you and you flub a shot, shake it off and X the next target. Word will get out that you are one of the men to beat.


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## NHLHVECTRIX (Jan 3, 2008)

that is way the first thing I do when registering is write donate on my card.I got tired of all the B/S. Just starting shooting 3d's again after 13 years.
I am not out to prove anything to anyone other them myself and have a good time.
more then one time I have been told you would have placed if you had not donated.


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## tenacity21 (Mar 5, 2007)

Shoot with them, and let them take the scores. I've dealt w/ the same thing that you went through on how I was the " new kid on the block " and tear'n the courses up.

~Dustin


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## TX Bowhunter (Dec 13, 2004)

Have had a similar instance and Instead of asking them to shoot I asked them if they would like to come practice with me at my range. I called them everyday for a month and said I'm fixing to go train would you like to come (2 guys). Always an excuse ....They never wanted to practice..I even offered to practice with them at their home targets...NOPE.

Anyhow the next shoot that I beat them again and they didn't accuse me of cheating they told everyone as much as he practices he ought to win everytime. 

Just some thought.

The ones that scream the loudest are usually the ones that work the least.:wink:


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

tx,
"Anyhow the next shoot that I beat them again and they didn't accuse me of cheating they told everyone as much as he practices he ought to win everytime."

good one!!!!! if only they knew!!!!


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## rock77 (Apr 7, 2007)

*Update*

Hey phumb keep us updated on this curious how this will turn out.
what the reactions are at the next shoot ect.
Thanks


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

well the first shoot of the year, last week, I asked the guy running the show if there was an official scorekeeper there he could send out with me(tic)....I really like this guy and he does a great job setting up the course. He denied knowing what I was talking about, I think it was another guy (doing most of the doubting) that wasn't there. I wound up winning the hunter class. I'll hopefully get to shoot with the "other guy" in the near future....


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## BeachBow (Jan 6, 2008)

*Time spent*



carlosii said:


> kcarcherguy said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, shoot with them.
> ...


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## Supershark (Dec 14, 2004)

Take them to the range and shoot them straight up. You shoot your stake and they shoot their stake. Mano-E-Mano. Tell them to put up or shut up. Then make them eat their words. LITERALLY. If and when you do beat them, you be sure they let everyone know it and MAKE them appolagize in front of the entire club.


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## apex7 (Mar 23, 2006)

*cheating*

I quit turning scores in around here. The 5 dollar trophy isn't worth it.I shoot a local course for me. and to beat the guys I am with.I have been shoting 3-d's for 16 years.I have just about seen it all.I know how I can shoot and so do the guys I shoot with. I work in a shop and will shoot with just about anybody.And yes guys will come in with their chest all puffed out thinking they are the next king s#$%.Maybe they are and maybe they ain't.All I worry about is myself.Do your best and show that you are a professional in all aspects of the sport.At the end it will all work out, or they shut up.


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## boojo35 (Jul 16, 2005)

You stated that you honestly like to win........ That means you are competetive...... you should be able to compete against your competition.....If you cant beat a guy head to head under the pressure, then he is the better tournament archer...... you sound as though you have some doubts in yourself with your remarks about hopefully shooting your average and such..... this is by no means meant as a bash or put down to you....... I broke back into archery a few years back after a long time of not shooting competetively...... Many of the shooters that I have been exposed to and shot with are simply awesome, not just locally, but even at the national tourneys...... It is very tough to "prove" to them what you can do...... shooting under pressure is difficult, especially when you dont have much experience at it...... the "hot shots" are also aware that people buckle when they shoot against them..... Shoot with these guys...... you will probably make new friends..... Most of the really awesome archers I know and have met are the nicest people you could ever meet.....You WILL become a better archer competing with the big dogs...... Dont worry about anything but making shots, one at a time..... your score will be there at the end of the day..... If you really like to win as you stated, you owe it to yourself to be able to compete at that level under any circumstances..... you might falter a few times, but stick to what makes you good when you practice..... focus....
Good luck..


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## cowboy3 (Feb 22, 2007)

*keep score*

KEEP shooting you will be pared up with the higher shooters in finals competitions and when you beat them thier will be no way they can take it away from you BE MAD it will drive you to WIN
the frist championship round I ever shot was with a so called hot shot the frist thing he did was try to take over the group and tell us" if you shoot the wrong target we will still score it any way"(field round) this must of been a weakness of his own ,any way it didnt matter I bet him and the next year I won the states.I also learned It was better to keep score or call arrows because I could control the pencil pushing and call for a ref if you needed to call aclose call ITS ethier in or its out dont ever fool your self.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Reminds me of a situation I had a few years back. I shot at a club that I rarely shot at. Arriving late because I had worked a half a Saturday, I caught one of my friends and his group going out to shoot their last 20. I jumped in and shot the 20. When we got back to the clubhouse i was starved and got a sandwich. While I was eating the range captain said I had 10 minutes to get on the course to shoot my second round. I said ok but where do I stand with this score...in first. I said well if I got it won and don't have anyone to shoot with there is no reason to go out again. A fella said he would go out with me and said there is no need I already won. Fast forward to the next weekend shooting at my home club. I am shooting with the club president, the club treasurer and a friend. We took a break after 20. While sitting in the clubhouse this guys walks up and says "Remember me". It was the guy from the previous week and I said "Ya". "Are you shooting with anybody today?" I said " ya these two guys here would you like to join us?" Long story short we go out and he shoots from the bowhunter stakes and we are shooting from the back stake. After about 5 targets he asks me if I shoot from there all the time. I told him I shoot the longest stakes that a club has so I can get to be as good as I can be for the national shoots. After 10 targets he left us and said thank you for letting him shoot with us. Now this guy never accused me of cheating but with his tone of voice he made it clear that was what he thought.


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## kaxfuji (Jul 23, 2005)

retread said:


> Shoot with the local "hot shot", relax and have fun. You may find out you have another friend, if not at least you had fun.





:set1_signs009:


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

Great replies guys!!! Thanks again!! Our next shoot is tomorrow, I'm normally pretty pumped about that....unfortunately, I've been sick most of the week, home with sinus infection and fever. Debating if I could/should go tomorrow....


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2006)

phumb said:


> Great replies guys!!! Thanks again!! Our next shoot is tomorrow, I'm normally pretty pumped about that....unfortunately, I've been sick most of the week, home with sinus infection and fever. Debating if I could/should go tomorrow....


Oh, go out and shoot ya big wussy. :wink: Good luck. Talk to ya later.


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Oh, go out and shoot ya big wussy. :wink: Good luck. Talk to ya later.


Thats it! No clams for you! I went...did okay under the circumstances...


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## HotShot88 (Jul 19, 2005)

If you had a shoot off with the club champion and beat him, seems to me you have nothing left to do prove you arent cheating.


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

HotShot88 said:


> If you had a shoot off with the club champion and beat him, seems to me you have nothing left to do prove you arent cheating.


you would think so right?......but I got lucky.....hopefully put this baby to rest on our last shoot this year, its a $$$$ shoot and each group will have an "official" scorekeeper.....


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## cybershooter (Oct 16, 2005)

If at all possible, shoot a nationally sponsored tournament. IBO or ASA. When you have simular scores at their tournaments, the nay sayers have documented proof that you can shoot.


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## Big Time Hunter (Jun 4, 2005)

*Pushers*

What I like to do if I think someone may be pushing is to kindly ask to shoot with them next time. Tell them you would be interested in some pointers to improve your shooting. You will find out real quick if they are pushing or not. If they don't want to shoot with you then you can't exactly say they are cheating, but I have yet to run into a good shooter that will not let you shoot with them and give you some tips along the way. Most good archers are more than happy to share their tips with someone who is not as skilled and most have egos and what better way to boost them then to shoot lights out in front of a perfect stranger.

I agree with everyone else in your situation. Tell all the nay sayers they can shoot with you anytime and make them eat crow.

B T H


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Don't worry. People are always gonna talk. I try to shoot with different people. If I win a shoot I go to the runners up and congratulate them and ask if I can shoot with them next time. Who knows they may become your friends. Once they know you, they will be the ones sticking up for you in the future.


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## NormPaul (Jan 5, 2005)

*What he said Grass Hopper!!!!*



jakeeib said:


> Shoot the course with the "reining hot shots" and make them eat crow!



This is the best way I've found to reassure those that have the need to winn all the time and question another on their ethics.

Norm


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

Well I'm resurrecting this ancient post. Today we had our club "money" shoot. Because money was involved, they enlisted the help of "officiall" scorekeepers. Man, the pressure I had on me this week made me loose sleep! If I didn't shoot well, all my previous scores would be meaningless and I'd be labeled a liar for the rest of my membership....Thanks to many of the positive posts from you guys here and a special thanks to sonny for his line "Pressure was made to make champions." Which kinda became my mantra...I took first place! I feel like cloud hanging over my head is gone...what a feeling!
On a little side note...while I know pencil pushing goes on...people will cheat with almost no reason...if a "new kid on the block" starts turning in some good scores, maybe he derserves the benefit of the doubt before he's labeled as a cheater...thanks again for all the positive encouragement! AT rocks!!


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2006)

Congrats!! That ought to shut 'em up. 
Now if you're up for some "REAL" competition, why don't you make it up-state in the near future and kill some foam on the "ranch". I've a nice 30 target range in my back 40.
Let me know when you're in town, and we'll set up a shoot with Carl, Joe, and the boys.
Talk to ya later!


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

sounds great!... and would really look forward to that! should happen real soon as I'd like to prune some apple trees b4 they start to bloom...thanks for congrats and hope to see you guys soon! 
ps-any word on funanza? anyone thinking about rinehart 100?


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## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

Congrats to ya Phumb and I gotta say you handled the whole situation with class. Great shootin' man. :thumb:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Congrats Phumb!

For every pencil pusher that's out there there is another guy that insinuates through raised eye brows and a smirk that "Joe Blow" may not have really shot "that" score. I don't know which is worse the "pusher" or the background character assassin......... 

I shot this past Saturday with 2 complete strangers and scored pretty well on a tough course......... The weekend before I smoked an easy course and a "officer" of the club muttered a disparaging remark that was heard by many people that don't even know who I am!  I almost exploded............. If one day I shoot with someone that heard his comment and I don't score well what are they going to think? Are they going to then believe what he said and spread the lie?

We shouldn't believe everything we hear. I have listened to people embara: a friend) subtly or boldly disparage another's honesty or abilities with very little basis in fact. I can only wonder what is said behind my back................

Phumb, in the future remember what you have been through when you "hear" stuff about others...............


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## 3dn4jc (Jun 25, 2007)

Don't even concern yourself with what other archers say about you, just keep shooting and others will tell those accusers, hey I've seen him shoot he's for real, You can also start shooting big touraments like asa pro ams or ibo triple crowns and I bet they will look at your scores, The sad thing is that people get just plain jealous, I've experenced it all my hunting life when I'd kill a big buck that I hunted ethical and hard did my homework I'd hear chatter that I killed him at night,shot him on sunday,even picked him up as road kill. My hunting buddies would say what are you going to do? I'd say keep hunting big deer and bugging those gealous no hunting wan't to bees


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## wlw723 (Feb 10, 2008)

you already beat him in a shoot off, there were probably alot of witnesses. so you have nothing to prove ...you already did prove it . but if it will help you get some closure, shoot him in the back of the knee and take the club champ title :darkbeer:


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