# Another Stab Set-up Question



## Reverend

Even though I'm not shooting a long stabilizer, I'd like to get as much out of my "all-purpose" rig as possible. I'm running a 12 in. fuse carbon blade up front with 7 oz. weight, and a 12 in. carbon blade on the side with 13 oz. of weight. As I've experimented with many combinations, I've seen an improvement in my float pattern, with this current combination. But one problem that I'm having is that my side-bar is really close to the string... about an inch! 
If I swing it out, away from the bow, then the bow begins to cant left (top). 
If I remove some weight, then my pin begins to dip down. 

I'm thinking of simply setting up my sight to accomodate for my natural cant. This way I can have a little more room to experiment with my side-bar. Yet, it doesn't seem to me that too many top shooters do this. This is why I'm questioning the orthodoxy of this option. What do you think? Is adjusting the 2nd axis for my natural cant acceptable? Am I trying to achieve something out of the ordinary?


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## bhutso

I have tried this, in my mind there is no reason why it wouldn't work, but in practice it was a real fight to get my windage correct, for one its very difficult to make slight adjustments to the 2nd axis on most sights, second there isn't a very wide range of adjustment in them, I fought it for awhile and gave up, it was inconsistent from day to day and I never could get the same poi at say 20 yards and 40 yards on windage. My back bar is very close to the string as well, that is just how it's going to be if you run alot of back weight unless you go with a second bar on the opposite side. Once I leveled the sight to the bow and set my weight to balance the cant of the bow it was dead on at all yardages, target and hunting bow.

I had the same thought as you, I tried it and it didnt work out for me, 
Just my Experiance


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## Carbofastdirect

No problem having the side rod in tight to the riser once the string clears it ok, personally i wouldnt go down the road of canting the bow and adjusting sight to suit.


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## N7709K

What rig are you setting bars up on?


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> What rig are you setting bars up on?


It's a Hoyt CS34. Side bar is mounted on the riser's lower quiver mount. 
Sight is a single pin Hogg Father.


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## Reverend

ALSO....
Even with this combination, my float pattern is still "up and down" rather than "side-to-side." 
At 60 yards, my groups are all in the 10 ring, BUT they're definitely in the form of an "l" rather than "--" or "o"
This of course is indicative of the up and down movement. This float pattern doesn't really change much when experimineting with weights. It is a little tighter now, but only a smudge, compared to stabs with no weights. 
This is why I was hoping to swing my sidebar out.

Or is it possible that this is a DL issue, or an inconsistent grip?


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## Reverend

Here's a vid taken about 2 months ago...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqKthjthy80&feature=youtu.be


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## N7709K

Peep height, dl, cam sync are where I'd start for vertical string


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## montigre

This is starting to veer into Coach's Corner territory, but I'd definitely say examine your peep height and DL. And stop dancing around so much on line..you're wasting too much energy, muscle strength and losing concentration doing last minute fiddling....set your stance, grip, address the target, draw, and execute the shot. :wink: 

You're diving your head into the peep for each shot which is upsetting your upper body balance as your shot is executed, if your peep were raised just a little, you'd be better able to keep your head and upper body balanced over your hips a lot better. You can see your bow arm lower as you dip your head into the peep... 

It also appears that your DL may be 1/8-1/4" too short causing you to collapse ever so slightly on the release making it appear that you need to speed up your release. With a slightly longer DL, you'd be better able to engage the use of your back muscles more efficiently during the draw, have a steadier hold, and get a much crisper release. Right now, you're using your shoulder muscles a lot to draw as can be seen through the severe bend in your release wrist as you draw the bow and your relatively low draw elbow once you've reached anchor. This weight is not being fully transferred to your back muscles once you've reached anchor--making it feel like your release is lagging or hanging up a little. So, initially I feel your release speed is on the warm side of okay and would not mess with it until the other issues are evaluated further. Hope this is of some help.


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## Reverend

Monti...
Your advice is well taken. Thanks. 
Since I'm shooting from 20- 60+ yards with a one-pin sight, I set the peep height at 40 yards, and my bow is a short 33 inches A2A. So yes, I'm fishing for my peep a little at 20 yards (which is what the video was recorded at), and 60 yards. Do you still advise raising it? Wouldn't this make my anchor for longer shots difficult?


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> Peep height, dl, cam sync are where I'd start for vertical string


Thanks Jacob. I will check those. 
Would you say that an "up-and-down" float is indicative of a slighly short DL?


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## N7709K

I wouldn't say it directy hints at one- but it also doesn't hint against it. With too short of a dl what you normally find is a very toght hold that bobs low. As you expand through the shot you'll find the dot wanting to drift out to the bow side. Your misses will primarily be low, or out the bow side and low. 

Do you have a slow float or a quick and jerky float?


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## montigre

Reverend said:


> Since I'm shooting from 20- 60+ yards with a one-pin sight, I set the peep height at 40 yards, and my bow is a short 33 inches A2A. So yes, I'm fishing for my peep a little at 20 yards (which is what the video was recorded at), and 60 yards. Do you still advise raising it? Wouldn't this make my anchor for longer shots difficult?


If you have your peep set for 40 yards, then you should not need to raise it. However, you should not have to drive your head into the string to see through it regardless of the distance being shot. Perhaps you need another facial reference point like a kisser so that you do not feel the need to touch the string to your nose. You probably won't be able to touch your nose to string and maintain proper upper body alignment with that short of a bow.


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## Reverend

montigre said:


> If you have your peep set for 40 yards, then you should not need to raise it. However, you should not have to drive your head into the string to see through it regardless of the distance being shot. Perhaps you need another facial reference point like a kisser so that you do not feel the need to touch the string to your nose. You probably won't be able to touch your nose to string and maintain proper upper body alignment with that short of a bow.


Do you think that this lowering of my head is causing the up and down float pattern?


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> I wouldn't say it directy hints at one- but it also doesn't hint against it. With too short of a dl what you normally find is a very toght hold that bobs low. As you expand through the shot you'll find the dot wanting to drift out to the bow side. Your misses will primarily be low, or out the bow side and low.
> 
> Do you have a slow float or a quick and jerky float?


It's interesting because somedays it pretty solid for a few moments, but then dips down. To compensate for this I added more weight on the back (side-bar). Now it just sort of bobs up and down.


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## montigre

Reverend said:


> Do you think that this lowering of my head is causing the up and down float pattern?


No, I believe a draw length that is not dialed in for you may be behind your float issue--lowering your head is contributing to other things surrounding your shot execution. 

Generally, a faster, jerky float or as Jacob mentioned, one that slowly sinks toward the bottom as you expand is indicative of a DL that is a little short--bobbing up and down may mean your back bar is not weighted/distributed properly for your DW/holding weight.


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## redman

I use no stab. on my target bow when setting the draw length .


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## Padgett

First off you look really good and the small things that I am going to suggest are to me the polishing off that should make you really comfortable and strong as a shooter, I do not look at you as a person that is struggling but as a person that has put in the time and is close to being really solid.

1. Your stance is causing you to problems, the back leg doesn't look right. It is because the foot is pointing straight out and it needs to be towards the target a little just like the front foot is. The front leg and foot to me are appropriate and the back foot and leg are causing you to look a little off.

2. Your head is reaching forward to the string just a little, to me if you have good form and proper draw length the head shouldn't be leaned back or forward and should look like you have good posture. when looking at your grip and your front arm and your rear arm and anchor I am very pleased with what I am seeing but your head is forward a little. To me if you aren't pushing your front arm into the target while aiming this means you may need a slightly longer draw length, if you are pushing into the target then just let the front arm push back into the shoulder socket and it may fix the issue.


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## Reverend

Padgett said:


> First off you look really good and the small things that I am going to suggest are to me the polishing off that should make you really comfortable and strong as a shooter, I do not look at you as a person that is struggling but as a person that has put in the time and is close to being really solid.
> 
> 1. Your stance is causing you to problems, the back leg doesn't look right. It is because the foot is pointing straight out and it needs to be towards the target a little just like the front foot is. The front leg and foot to me are appropriate and the back foot and leg are causing you to look a little off.
> 
> 2. Your head is reaching forward to the string just a little, to me if you have good form and proper draw length the head shouldn't be leaned back or forward and should look like you have good posture. when looking at your grip and your front arm and your rear arm and anchor I am very pleased with what I am seeing but your head is forward a little. To me if you aren't pushing your front arm into the target while aiming this means you may need a slightly longer draw length, if you are pushing into the target then just let the front arm push back into the shoulder socket and it may fix the issue.



Thanks Padgett. 
I really appreciate your feedback. I will look at re-positioning my feet a little better. 
As far reaching forward with my head, I see that too, but really didn't see how I can fix it. 
Since my bow is only 33 inches A2A, and my peep is set for 40 yards, I'm having to tilt my head when shooting at 20 yards... and also 60+ yards. etc. 
The video was recorded at 20 yards, hence the reaching forward. 

I think my options are:
1. As Monti suggests, forget using my nose as a facial reference, and think about a kisser. 
2. Go to a longer A2A bow. This is not really an option right now... perhaps down the road.
3. Adjust DL a tad to see if posture improves. My DL feels good now except for that bobbing float pattern. Perhaps I should take out a few twists from the string to see if sight picture steadies up?


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## Reverend

montigre said:


> ...Right now, you're using your shoulder muscles a lot to draw as can be seen through the severe bend in your release wrist as you draw the bow and your relatively low draw elbow once you've reached anchor. This weight is not being fully transferred to your back muscles once you've reached anchor--making it feel like your release is lagging or hanging up a little...


Monti.
Thanks again for your insight. Can you elaborate on what you saw in the draw... shoulder muscles, bend wrist, low draw elbow. I can see what you mean, but am not sure how it should be... or how to correct it.


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## dua lam pa

your weight is all on your heels and you lack proper concentration in your shot - Your not in your shot mentally 
you are clearly commanding the release as well 
Your stature and set up look very good and strong combine this with a tad bit of relax and you will be all aces


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## montigre

Reverend said:


> Monti. Thanks again for your insight. Can you elaborate on what you saw in the draw... shoulder muscles, bend wrist, low draw elbow. I can see what you mean, but am not sure how it should be... or how to correct it.


Sorry, I missed this question... 
Issues: 
When you first start to draw the bow after your initial address of the target, your wrist takes on a very severe bend with very little backward movement of the draw elbow. To do this, you have to be using mostly your shoulder muscles to initiate the draw. This bend is carried on as you pull the string to your full draw length. During this time, the wrist bend improves, but is still evident. When you reach anchor, the bend in the wrist, due to how you turn your release hand, moves to the outside and your draw elbow takes on a slight shift outward from being inline with the arrow and you're maintaining the bulk of the bow's draw weight in your arm and upper chest. 

The initial part of your release looks very nice, but since the wrist has maintained some bend to it and the draw elbow is slightly out of line with the arrow when the release activates, the draw elbow starts to rotate forward while your release hand follows the contour of your jaw. This causes the bend in the wrist to become severe again and the follow through exaggerated. The point of the draw elbow drops during execution and is nearly below the level of the arrow which can cause highs/lows due to uneven pressure being applied to d-loop and rest. 

Solutions: 
1) Consider adding a kisser button (solid or tie on) so that you can maintain an erect posture without driving your head forward to align the peep.
2) You may have to lengthen your DL by about 1/4" so that you can align your draw elbow better with the arrow at full draw.
3) When you initiate your draw, concentrate on pulling your draw elbow back and around--this should allow you to draw with a straighter wrist as you will be using those large back muscles from the outset instead of partially shifting to them through your draw cycle.
4) When coming to anchor, think to yourself "come up into anchor" by raising your entire draw arm upward to your anchor instead of laterally. This, along with the slightly longer DL, should help to elevate the draw elbow slightly and allow for a more complete transfer of the draw weight into the back muscles. 

Here's a recent picture of Jesse Broadwater just aat the time of release. His draw elbow is above the line of the arrow and going straight back and not out to the side. His draw wrist is just starting to take a slight bend in it as it follows the contour of his draw, but will not become extreme. You can see by his posture that all of the power is coming from his back muscles and not his arm/chest.
View attachment 1962879


Here's a pic of his release wrist at anchor: very straight and again, if yu draw an imaginary line back, draw elbow above the horizontal plane of the arrow
View attachment 1962880


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## ron w

you notice how the top of his hand, wrist and fingers are all in a straight line, showing no tension and relaxed , with only the last two segments of his fingers curled into a "J-hook" in front of the release.....important that I say "in front of the release"..... that "j-hook" his fingers are making, is only ....retaining the release from ripping out of his hand....not "grasping" it.... what-so-ever. this is paramount to allowing back tension to work the release. the rest of his entire forearm, except for those three tendons in your arm and hand that make those three fingers retain the release, have to be completely relaxed and stretched out tight like a rope pulling a weight. only when they are in that condition will the contraction of your rhomboid, that causes your elbow to swing, cause your fingers to rotate the release enough to fire it. the more relaxed those tendons are, the less you need that fourth finger on the release to obtain the correct rotation. when done right you'll feel the draw weight in your elbow and those three finger tips, but not through your fore arm. if you fell tension in your fore arm, you are manipulating the release with your fingers and will have consistency in execution problems. any appreciable tension in your forearm, makes your hand keep the release in a specific position, not allowing it to rotate with the swing of your elbow, as it holds back the draw weigh.
keeping that part of your fore arm loose and relaxed, is where your conscious concentration should be during the release execution,.....the actual manipulation of the release should come from the swing of your elbow and the unconscious contraction trained into your rhomboids and back muscles.
also notice....no expression on his face, he's simply looking forward, head erect eyes pretty much centered in his eye sockets and eyelids normally open, as if he's just standing there, looking straight ahead. all this absence of apparent tension, is exactly what makes the release process run as dependently as it needs to.


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## Reverend

montigre said:


> Solutions:
> 1) Consider adding a kisser button (solid or tie on) so that you can maintain an erect posture without driving your head forward to align the peep.
> 2) You may have to lengthen your DL by about 1/4" so that you can align your draw elbow better with the arrow at full draw.
> 3) When you initiate your draw, concentrate on pulling your draw elbow back and around--this should allow you to draw with a straighter wrist as you will be using those large back muscles from the outset instead of partially shifting to them through your draw cycle.
> 4) When coming to anchor, think to yourself "come up into anchor" by raising your entire draw arm upward to your anchor instead of laterally. This, along with the slightly longer DL, should help to elevate the draw elbow slightly and allow for a more complete transfer of the draw weight into the back muscles...


Wow. Thanks a lot. That helps... I think. 
I've taken a few twists out of the string to lengthen it a tad. I think it increased it like 1/8 -3/16. I will try a tied-in kisser later today. 
As I experimented breifly drawing with my wrist straighter and my elbow higher yet closer to the body, I immediately noticed my triceps engaging. I'm not sure if this is good? 
Also managed to relax my release hand much more. However when doing this, I did sense alot of tension on my bow arm. So much so that I had to consciously lower it. For some reason I struggled getting it in the proper low starting position. Additionally, I felt alot of tension at full draw to the point where my muscles were shaking a bit. i'm assuming that this is due to the new longer DL? Does this mean anything to you? Or maybe I shouldn't raise my draw elbow as much?


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## Reverend

ron w said:


> you notice how the top of his hand, wrist and fingers are all in a straight line, showing no tension and relaxed , with only the last two segments of his fingers curled into a "J-hook" in front of the release.....important that I say "in front of the release"..... that "j-hook" his fingers are making, is only ....retaining the release from ripping out of his hand....not "grasping" it.... what-so-ever. this is paramount to allowing back tension to work the release. the rest of his entire forearm, except for those three tendons in your arm and hand that make those three fingers retain the release, have to be completely relaxed and stretched out tight like a rope pulling a weight. only when they are in that condition will the contraction of your rhomboid, that causes your elbow to swing, cause your fingers to rotate the release enough to fire it. the more relaxed those tendons are, the less you need that fourth finger on the release to obtain the correct rotation. when done right you'll feel the draw weight in your elbow and those three finger tips, but not through your fore arm. if you fell tension in your fore arm, you are manipulating the release with your fingers and will have consistency in execution problems. any appreciable tension in your forearm, makes your hand keep the release in a specific position, not allowing it to rotate with the swing of your elbow, as it holds back the draw weigh.
> keeping that part of your fore arm loose and relaxed, is where your conscious concentration should be during the release execution,.....the actual manipulation of the release should come from the swing of your elbow and the unconscious contraction trained into your rhomboids and back muscles.
> also notice....no expression on his face, he's simply looking forward, head erect eyes pretty much centered in his eye sockets and eyelids normally open, as if he's just standing there, looking straight ahead. all this absence of apparent tension, is exactly what makes the release process run as dependently as it needs to.



Thanks Ron. 
I see what you mean. I managed to relax my hand a bit, but had trouble relaxing my bow-arm and release arm. I will experiment some more in the next few days, as I only fired off a few shots before I headed to the office... the Lord's work beckons


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## Reverend

Managed to get some sequence shots of Braden. Anyone care to elaborate on his draw as it concerns his draw arm elbow position and his wrist?


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## montigre

Reverend said:


> Wow. Thanks a lot. That helps... I think.
> I've taken a few twists out of the string to lengthen it a tad. I think it increased it like 1/8 -3/16. I will try a tied-in kisser later today.
> As I experimented breifly drawing with my wrist straighter and my elbow higher yet closer to the body, I immediately noticed my triceps engaging. I'm not sure if this is good?
> Also managed to relax my release hand much more. However when doing this, I did sense alot of tension on my bow arm. So much so that I had to consciously lower it. For some reason I struggled getting it in the proper low starting position. Additionally, I felt alot of tension at full draw to the point where my muscles were shaking a bit. i'm assuming that this is due to the new longer DL? Does this mean anything to you? Or maybe I shouldn't raise my draw elbow as much?


1/8" is probably not enough, but it is a start. 

You may be trying to elevate the draw elbow a little too much, I cannot tell without a pic. If not, you are going to get a lot of muscle shaking and tension in strange places until your back muscles become accustomed to taking on the draw/holding weight of your bow. It also takes time to learn to bleed the tension out of the draw forearm into the back, so don't expect instant results from either. I suggest shoot the slightly longer DL for a week or two starting with a blank bale and moving to a close-up target and then post up another pic or video.


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## N7709K

top end of #2's or bottom or #3's? or in the middle somewhere? you'll want to have room to adjust without having to work harness lengths, atleast not for the big adjustments. one thing i would suggest as well is going up a mod size or two(depending on how much you actually need to let dl out) and dropping the peg a hole; holding weight will go up a touch but more you will lose valley and bring forefront the need to engage the back throughout the entire shot.


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> top end of #2's or bottom or #3's? or in the middle somewhere? you'll want to have room to adjust without having to work harness lengths, atleast not for the big adjustments. one thing i would suggest as well is going up a mod size or two(depending on how much you actually need to let dl out) and dropping the peg a hole; holding weight will go up a touch but more you will lose valley and bring forefront the need to engage the back throughout the entire shot.


It's a #2 cam, with "C" mods (28 inches). The video shows bow at 27 7/8 in. DL. 
Right now it's 28 1/8ish. 
Do you think I need to go up even more? One or two mods? Wow that's a lot!

As far as adjusting mods and pegs, you mean swap out for the next size mods, but leave the peg in the same place? For example, "d" mods, "c" peg right? 
How do you time the cams for this setup?


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## N7709K

.5-1"... but thats before adjustment for running the peg a hole short and then tweaking...

to tell for sure i'd need to see stills or footage from behind the shooter(showing back engagement/shoulder positon) and from behind the release side elbow showing alignment. does your bow side move left when the shot breaks or does it stay more or less static? how do you shoot the release; expansion or only with the release side?

i apologize for the poor vid quality... not sure whats up with that. Take a look at the reactions of both the bow side and the release side- my dl is a touch short that what i "should" be shooting, but most of that is due to the stance that works best for me and how i shoot. 

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=cfsVLHdIVZU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmIF8bj1aQs


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## Reverend

Thanks Jacob. I really appreciate your input. I shoot release side only. 

I saw your vid, and I see what you mean by the position of your release elbow while at full draw. 

Ok I will try to get vids of that up in the next couple of days. Thanks J- 
I think we're probably working on two things here:
1. Adjust DL to minimize pin movement... which was the original intent of the thread. 
2. Adjust my anchor so my head doesn't dip down. I must admit that shooting without touching the string to the nose is more complicated than I thought. I'll still practice with it a while to see how it feels. But I wonder if there's an alternative? 

Is it wrong to move the head down a little to touch the string to the nose? 
I heard that it's not good to move the head forward, which is what I see I'm doing. But that's not the same as pivoting the head to accommodate for a shorter A2A bow.


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## Reverend

montigre said:


> 1/8" is probably not enough, but it is a start.
> 
> You may be trying to elevate the draw elbow a little too much, I cannot tell without a pic. If not, you are going to get a lot of muscle shaking and tension in strange places until your back muscles become accustomed to taking on the draw/holding weight of your bow. It also takes time to learn to bleed the tension out of the draw forearm into the back, so don't expect instant results from either. I suggest shoot the slightly longer DL for a week or two starting with a blank bale and moving to a close-up target and then post up another pic or video.


Thanks Monti. I'm working on that. 
Changes made.
Blank baling now. 
Wow. This feels looong! 
To think I may need to go longer?!?!? Yikes. I'm thinking new arrows...


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## N7709K

the most consistent form you will have comes when you draw to anchor and nothing moves; when you settle in, you are lookin through the peep at your dot on the x. nothing says that you have to do that or that you can get to that point with your current setup and shot style. 

with only working the back half of the shot, letting dl out won't really help thing. yes it will bring the back side in a little better and may calm float, but it won't really improve things. I'm not gonna push you to change how you shoot; if you want to work both sides and become more dynamic thats up to you.


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> the most consistent form you will have comes when you draw to anchor and nothing moves; when you settle in, you are lookin through the peep at your dot on the x. nothing says that you have to do that or that you can get to that point with your current setup and shot style.
> 
> with only working the back half of the shot, letting dl out won't really help thing. yes it will bring the back side in a little better and may calm float, but it won't really improve things. I'm not gonna push you to change how you shoot; if you want to work both sides and become more dynamic thats up to you.


Jacob.
My aim is to steady my pin float and eliminate the up and down bobbing. If that means changing my shooting style then I'm open to that. 
When you say work both sides, do you mean push with bow / pull? Or are you referring to contracting both back muscle groups (L and R side)? Or expanding chest?


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## N7709K

when i talk about working both halves i'm talking about engaging and using both sides during the shot process. As you aim and start the execution of the release there needs to be a little bit of growth in DL to get the release to fire when shooting a relaxed shot. As contraction happens in the lats and rhomboids the chest expands; there isn't one without the other, allowing that expansion to play into your shot process allows for better alignment and allows for a more aggressive shot as you can balance the pressure between the halves. The contraction/expansion give a more dynamic shot and ultimately a stronger shot as more of the shooter is engaged in the shot process; you also do not fight what it naturally happening and fatigue does not set in as fast.

if you are fighting an up/down bob your peep height isn't ideal and neither is DL; for this setup. this may also be compounded ontop of other issues in form or shot execution.


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## SonnyThomas

I don't know. I just watched 1 of videos of Reverend and I thought his bow arm was out as far as he could get it....Like too long. No way can I see him adding another 1" to his draw.....Lord! 

Okay, ball parkin' here. My draw length is really under 72" but....by the Two formulas; 72-15/2=28.5". 72"/2.5= 28.8". My bow set to a measured AMO of 28 1/4" plus 5/8" long d-loop (no doubt under pressure it's longer). Doesn't make any difference what hinge or thumb release I use I can draw so hard into the wall I'm near to pulling my bow in half and my anchor is solid and the riser is cutting into my bow hand. Dual limb stops there isn't any give. Into the wall hard it's hard to fire my hinges. Just drawing to the wall, holding to the wall I have comfort, relaxed and all my releases are sweet and smooth and all will give the same point of impact at 20 and 25 yards.

I tried the "straight arm" before that Reverend shows in his videos - what it looked like to me. All I got was a sore elbow. 
One that's always been; "You can shoot a bow too short on draw length better than you can with draw length too long."
I can't make out how his bow hand is to the riser, but straight arming the bow hand has to be almost bent backwards.
I went to Padgett not ago about the bow hand. Full even contact from the web straight down off the palm of the hand. Me, riser felt as described, my bow arm sets (elbow bent some - Randy Ulmer; Shock absorber), ball of shoulder sets and stays low in the socket. 

Stabilizers, balancing act; One of the simplest formulas I've found. Tell me where it's wrong.
Formula is as follows is still just a in the Ball Park…..

length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"

Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.

You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.

You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X.


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## N7709K

sorry but you don't kill left to right with back bar weight- you need to stop the main from wanting to move.... thats done through weighting the main. For that rig, with that set of bars it'll come out to a 1:3 maybe even a 1:4 to get a very steady hold in all conditions. so a little longer lighter main will play better.

look at the reaction of the bow when the shot breaks; there pressure of too long and stiff arming the bow isn't there... but as i said, that view doesn't give enough of a tell.


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## SonnyThomas

Reverend, you making head way?


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## Reverend

SonnyThomas said:


> Reverend, you making head way?


Sonny,
I've tried a few different size modules. The next size larger module (1/2 in.) seemed to steady up the float a bit, but I haven't tested at longer ranges, and sometimes new things work temporarily. The negative part is that it makes my draw arm elbow drop low, and adds a lot more tension to my upper body when I'm at full draw. I think the tension will go as I get used to the new DL, but I'm still experimenting with it... twisting and untwisting bowstring to see if that float clears up.


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## ron w

you don't stop left and right with either, you stop left and right with good form and proper tension in the shot. stabs don't stop movement that would put your arrow outside a 3 inch circle at 20 yards.


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## Lazarus

Reverend said:


> Even though I'm not shooting a long stabilizer, I'd like to get as much out of my "all-purpose" rig as possible. I'm running a 12 in. fuse carbon blade up front with 7 oz. weight, and a 12 in. carbon blade on the side with 13 oz. of weight. As I've experimented with many combinations, I've seen an improvement in my float pattern, with this current combination. But one problem that I'm having is that my side-bar is really close to the string... about an inch!
> If I swing it out, away from the bow, then the bow begins to cant left (top).
> If I remove some weight, then my pin begins to dip down.
> 
> I'm thinking of simply setting up my sight to accomodate for my natural cant. This way I can have a little more room to experiment with my side-bar. Yet, it doesn't seem to me that too many top shooters do this. This is why I'm questioning the orthodoxy of this option. What do you think? Is adjusting the 2nd axis for my natural cant acceptable? Am I trying to achieve something out of the ordinary?


Reverend. I've been watching this topic for a few weeks and just keeping my mouth shut. It's taken quite a few twists and turns. When I re-read your original question the concern I see is this; you are worried about your bottom bar being only an inch from your string when you have your bottom bar adjusted to balance your level. If that's correct, why the worry? If it's an inch away you are fine. No need to over think that. Next, When I watch the video I see your bottom bar at full draw is actually a bit above the center of the lower cam. If you don't have enough clearance to get the proper level where you are now it looks like it's possible you could drop your bottom bar very slightly and possibly gain just a bit more adjustment "in" on your back bar. It's not likely this will hurt your "hold," it might even help by lowering the center of gravity even further yet. No way to know until you try. Just food for thought.


----------



## Reverend

Laz...
I think I'm good for now, being that this topic has gotten me chasing my DL, rather than adjusting the stabs. 
And yes, there is a little room there to move if I get real paranoid about the shot. 

Ron W...
The pin movement I'm trying to eliminate is the up and down. My right left is not too bad.


----------



## Lazarus

Oh, and to ad to the post above. It appears to me (in the video) that your draw length is near perfect. I see nothing that would indicate that it is too short.


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## Reverend

Here are a 4 more vids with the DL about 1/4 in. longer. At this 28.175 in. setting, I'm still getting alot of pin movement. 
I should also add that my calculated DL based on several methods is as follows: 
Wingspan - 27.375in.
Wingspan 2.5- 27.9in.
45* arrow- 28.0
90* arrow- 28.0
knuckle on wall- 29.0
angled fist- 28.5

So except for the angled fist method, none have me much longer than my present setup. 
The vids are about 2-3 minutes each, and their order is as follows: full length front view, close up front view, behind the shooter view, and back view. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ6J4aDDPew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR7B1Hcr-BY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhhuAtjCdtg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhsCwyxfG4o


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> Formula is as follows is still just a in the Ball Park…..
> 
> length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"
> 
> Then:
> "X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.
> 
> example:
> 27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
> 108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.
> 
> You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.
> 
> You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X.


Just in case some one is interested, I tried the above Formula the past couple of days. The formula doesn't explain weight of the front stabilizer or rear bar, as in is it total weight or weight added to the ends? I went with weight added to the ends. As such, my 30" Cartel weighs a total of 7 1/2 ounces which includes 2 ounces on the end. My 10" Doinker rear bar weighs a total of 9 ounces which includes 6 ounces on the end.
Using the formula;
30" front bar length times 2 ounces = 60
60 divided by 10" rear bar = 6 ounces for rear bar.

Bow was not exceptionally heavy at 7 1/2 pounds.

Trial test;
First, the rear bar had to be moved slightly out and down to keep me out of the way. Rear bar was hitting my gut and bow elbow.
Second, noticeable weight on left side. Had to get use to it. Standing out was the bubble in the scope housing centered pretty much on it's own.
Distance; Used 25 yards. Picnic table available and in the shade. And it was hot and the Buffalo gnats were atrocious.
First target; Again, it took some time to get use to. Impact was left of my normal impact. Center of mass group was left of the center of the X ring by approx. 5/8". Mass was oval up and down approx. 1 5/8". Total arrows, 15 and 3 called out. Counted the 12.
Second target; Nearly identical to first. 13 shots counting one wide right. Counted the 12 shots.
Adjusted sight frame 5 clicks, .010" left.
Third target; Nearly the same up and down oval and centered cutting the bottom and top of the X ring of the NFAA 20 yard 5 spot. 12 shots, all counted. 
Fourth target; Next day; Warmed up first. Nearly identical to third day with exception of 2 shots dead center low and just out of the bull's eye and I don't know why - just me. One wide right just within the bull's eye. 12 arrows counted.

Bow was slightly ungainly, but more due to balance just being different than I was use to. Again, the bubble pretty much centered on it's own and maybe too much. I had more weights for the front stabilizer, but none for the rear bar. $23 for 3 one ounce weights... I believe two rear bars would have been better and then add and/or adjust weights. 

Me; I think the formula does get you in the ball park unless I didn't understand the formula's front and bar weight . I went back to my normal set up. Took a bit to get oriented, but back to my regular fling of arrows...after I remembered to set the sight back...


----------



## Reverend

SonnyThomas said:


> Just in case some one is interested, I tried the above Formula the past couple of days. The formula doesn't explain weight of the front stabilizer or rear bar, as in is it total weight or weight added to the ends? I went with weight added to the ends. As such, my 30" Cartel weighs a total of 7 1/2 ounces which includes 2 ounces on the end. My 10" Doinker rear bar weighs a total of 9 ounces which includes 6 ounces on the end.
> Using the formula;
> 30" front bar length times 2 ounces = 60
> 60 divided by 10" rear bar = 6 ounces for rear bar.
> 
> Bow was not exceptionally heavy at 7 1/2 pounds.
> 
> Trial test;
> First, the rear bar had to be moved slightly out and down to keep me out of the way. Rear bar was hitting my gut and bow elbow.
> Second, noticeable weight on left side. Had to get use to it. Standing out was the bubble in the scope housing centered pretty much on it's own.
> Distance; Used 25 yards. Picnic table available and in the shade. And it was hot and the Buffalo gnats were atrocious.
> First target; Again, it took some time to get use to. Impact was left of my normal impact. Center of mass group was left of the center of the X ring by approx. 5/8". Mass was oval up and down approx. 1 5/8". Total arrows, 15 and 3 called out. Counted the 12.
> Second target; Nearly identical to first. 13 shots counting one wide right. Counted the 12 shots.
> Adjusted sight frame 5 clicks, .010" left.
> Third target; Nearly the same up and down oval and centered cutting the bottom and top of the X ring of the NFAA 20 yard 5 spot. 12 shots, all counted.
> Fourth target; Next day; Warmed up first. Nearly identical to third day with exception of 2 shots dead center low and just out of the bull's eye and I don't know why - just me. One wide right just within the bull's eye. 12 arrows counted.
> 
> Bow was slightly ungainly, but more due to balance just being different than I was use to. Again, the bubble pretty much centered on it's own and maybe too much. I had more weights for the front stabilizer, but none for the rear bar. $23 for 3 one ounce weights... I believe two rear bars would have been better and then add and/or adjust weights.
> 
> Me; I think the formula does get you in the ball park unless I didn't understand the formula's front and bar weight . I went back to my normal set up. Took a bit to get oriented, but back to my regular fling of arrows...after I remembered to set the sight back...



Sonny is this the same formula for short stabs? 
I'm using a 10 in. front with 8 oz. = 80
My side bar is also 10 in. (80/10=8)
So according to these calculations 8 up front and 8 on the side. Hmmm?


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## SonnyThomas

Rev, sort of part of what I don't understand, length of bar, total weight of bar, weight added to bar. 

On a whim I went with the bar set up above for a State ASA 3D Qualifier. For the most part I shot as normal - in 3rd place when we left and they shoot again tomorrow. So where I'll end up is anyone's guess. I had no detractions of the back bar over my regular deep "V" bar set up. See ???'s Post here of the dropped back bar, noting V-bar mounted low and pic of 2" drop downs - different effect to front stab.

Again, me and spots don't get along. Yes, I can shoot them, but you'll need a team of horses to drag me to a spot shoot. 3D and once I'm not brain dead, the pin just sort of sets there waiting on me shoot. There just ain't no circle to stay within. So the spot game is just as mental as anything in archery.....


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## N7709K

the formula only works to balance the bars statically with no added force during the shot; and only to equal them out, not the forces added... part of why i don't even bother with it. for parallel limb rigs you want to start at pretty much a 1:3 ratio and tune from there, if you have an aggressive shot you can get a 1:2 to work rather well.

how does your bow sit at present? main heavy or back heavy? 

running low off the riser shifts the CoG; depending on the game this helps or hurts, also depends on how responsive you want your rig to be. the lower CoG resists torque better than a higher CoG... for your rig i'd run off the lower quiver hole and run a decent down angle on the bar(to start anyway). with your shot you don't want to run a bunch of weight out front because the needed pressure to keep it still and where you want it isn't there; the back weight will be a bit higher, but again this is playin into your shot.


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## ron w

up and down is more likely related to anchor, peep and vertical grip pressure association, than dynamic stab function.


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## carlielos

ron w said:


> up and down is more likely related to anchor, peep and vertical grip pressure association, than dynamic stab function.


 I fought with this all winter, when I get the up and down Bob it's almost always draw length related, and that's always on the long side, I'm not talking large amounts either, I'm talking 1/16th-1/8" only!
You're making adjustments of 1/2-1" then you're changing your entire setup, peep height will change, arrow spine requirements will change, total bow re-tuning is in order including stabilizer balance!
So always experiment with small adjustments first, adding or removing weight to the front or rear bars, 1/16-1/8" draw adjustments, small peep height adjustments of 1/8 or less, tiller adjustments can make a big difference on balance or float!
Almost everyone will stand a shot at shooting better with a slightly short draw length verses slightly long.
Just some food for thought but try to avoid the big adjustments early save them for when all else fails!


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## Reverend

Well following some of the advice given here, I went ahead and did several things. 
I took out a few twists on string, in effect increasing the DL about 1/8+ inch.
I didn't really notice much change in the float... so... I played with the grip, amount of stored tension in my arms, etc., straightening my release wrist, etc. 
Still not much improvement.

Then I decided to take all the weight off my stabs and start from scratch. This steadied up the float a bit, but now instead of the up /down bobbing, I started getting "steady-steady-steady-dip" type of float. Still this seemed better than the bobbing. After adding a little weight incrementally, I ended with a better float pattern. Right now it's 8 oz. up front and about 10 oz, on the side. A little progress. Praise the Lord!

Still thinking it could get better, I decided to experiment with my anchor and peep location. Well whatta you know, when I raised my anchor point a smidge (palm at 45*) and lowered my peep a smidge, my aim steadied up even more! 
Now here's the new dilemma. Yea I know, it's always something. As steady as my sight picture looks now, it is not real consistent. In other words, it can be steady on one shot, but kind of loose on the next. Also, I notice that the more passive my shot is, the steadier the pin is? I'm getting more pin movement when I'm executing the shot, or pulling. I know this is obvious, but I wonder if I should lighten the release and shoot passively, or else keep executing a strong shot, which at the moment results in more pin movement? Any ideas?


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## poobear

Pulling hard through the shot can lengthen draw if you are using a cable stop bow. Flex in the cables can do this


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## N7709K

Strong shot only workin the back half or strong shot with both halves engaged?


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## Reverend

Trying both ways... 
Right now, the difference is too little to notice. I will keep comparing both to see...


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## dua lam pa

first thing I would recommend is loosing or at least taking the tension out of the release sling - it it clearly creating a tension -
For whats its worth I would also suggest that its a shoulder / shoulders problem - which yes can partially be fixed with draw length 
Compare your behind video to that of N77... 
When he comes Up into anchor on his face his back becomes fully engaged - blades come together towards his spine creating equal dynamic tension - 
it is fairly clear to see the lack of symmetry in your back from set up to release - great video explaining DBT - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X49xdu1wGdo&list=UUK5AqQF7nYbxfPe1iKNid4A - also Griv put something of this matter on line just this week -
with a recurve its easy to "pre load " with a compound you can load during the set up - 
again I would like to suggest you get over the front of your shot , put a brick under your rear foot if you need to get a feel of getting over your shot 
In my opinion your chasing your tail a bit here , its hard to get a proper DL if your stance and form are not correct , find a happy medium DL and stick to it for a few months
- learn your stance , find your shot then see where and how that DL needs to be adjusted - you are throwing so many variables into the equation.
being with in 1/4 to 1/2 will allow you to work your shot - 
It also needs to be said a good hands on coach would help a heck of a lot with where you are at the moment -


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## EPLC

Just an observation: Too many cooks spoil the soup.


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## dua lam pa

EPLC said:


> Just an observation: Too many cooks spoil the soup.


 Wiki Links ?


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> Just an observation: Too many cooks spoil the soup.


So very true!! "You got to know when to hold 'em; know when to fold 'em..." :wink:


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Just an observation: Too many cooks spoil the soup.


Post of the topic right there.


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## Reverend

I know what you mean...
But I guess I asked for it.


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## SonnyThomas

N7709K said:


> the formula only works to balance the bars statically with no added force during the shot; and only to equal them out, not the forces added... part of why i don't even bother with it. for parallel limb rigs you want to start at pretty much a *1:3 ratio *and tune from there, if you have an aggressive shot you can get a 1:2 to work rather well.
> 
> how does your bow sit at present? main heavy or back heavy?


Re-tracking; 
In one of my replies;
"Using the formula;
30" front bar length times 2 ounces = 60
60 divided by 10" rear bar = 6 ounces for rear bar." Now, isn't this 1:3?


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## SonnyThomas

Still re-tracking.....

Jesse Broadwater, we all know him. Steve Boylan, 2005 or 2006 NFAA Senior Triple Crown Champion. He has issues this year, but right behind Mr. Randy Ulmer last year. And then that 3D guy....Oh, Levi Morgan. Does his bow arm look slightly bent?


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## SonnyThomas

Seems the offside of the riser grip is as far out as possible, right up against the main thumb joint buried in the meat of the thumb and just about like the drawing from one of the highly acclaimed coaches...forget his name.


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## Lazarus

Sonny......I like the way you think. And since this topic has gotten WAY off track from the original post I thought I'd just post these three pics........

I'm not good with drawing little straight lines to show there is no bend in the elbow, but I think you'll get the picture.


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## N7709K

Form for recurve and form for compound is not interchangeable- different muscle groups are engaged at different times and to different amounts. Alignment becomes much more of a factor with recurve as well


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## Lazarus

N7709K said:


> Form for recurve and form for compound is not interchangeable- different muscle groups are engaged at different times and to different amounts. Alignment becomes much more of a factor with recurve as well



Really N7709K? Who would have thought that? 

So........tell us, using your vast experience with both, specific to bow arm, how does the bow arm being bent or not bent relate to each discipline?


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## ron w

lazarus, pretty smart- a***d' question....suppose your take a shot at it ...apparently you seem to be the one "testing" his knowledge, here....do you know the differences?. I personally thought your pics were of little contribution to the OP's question, myself and that N7709K's rebuttle, reguarding your pics, was right on the money. absolutely no reason to show a bunch of recurve shooters in post about shooting compounds....kind'a says you're guilty of exactly what you are questioning N7709K about. if you don't understand that last part...i'll be glad to explain it to you.
seems the only thing you can contribute to decent post is smart a**d comments that have very little meaning.


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## Blue X

ron w said:


> lazarus, pretty smart- a***d' question....suppose your take a shot at it ...apparently you seem to be the one "testing" his knowledge, here....do you know the differences?. I personally thought your pics were of little contribution to the OP's question, myself and that N7709K's rebuttle, reguarding your pics, was right on the money. absolutely no reason to show a bunch of recurve shooters in post about shooting compounds....kind'a says you're guilty of exactly what you are questioning N7709K about. if you don't understand that last part...i'll be glad to explain it to you.
> seems the only thing you can contribute to decent post is smart a**d comments that have very little meaning.


Hey Lazarus, What he said to a T. In real life you never get free advice from anyone near as knowledgeable as N7709K, dont burn your bridges here because they're few now a days. 

Blue X


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## dua lam pa

Lazarus said:


> Really N7709K? Who would have thought that?
> 
> So........tell us, using your vast experience with both, specific to bow arm, how does the bow arm being bent or not bent relate to each discipline?


 Bad tast in my mouth ! 
About 97% of of the folks with a solid knowledge base and willing to share have either left AT or simply refuse to post due to comments like yours.


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## Lazarus

dua lam pa said:


> Bad tast in my mouth !
> About 97% of of the folks with a solid knowledge base and willing to share have either left AT or simply refuse to post due to comments like yours.


From personal experience, the reason most of those 97% don't post is because of people who haven't won anything that pretend to know it all. 

Reverend, My personal apologies to you for taking this topic on a wrong turn. I had followed it all the way along and saw so many topics being discussed I saw no harm in it. I was wrong. Good shooting to you.


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## ron w

I know plenty of people who couldn't set their own nock point, but they shoot lights out. I've won one tournament in my life and came in dead last way more than second or third place.....but I know that I know more than most, for sure.
you don't have to win to know what you're talking about.
the reason most of those 97% don't post, is because if they are wrong, they'll be ridiculed as a "know-it-all",...."because they haven't won anything".... for attempting to contribute to this forum. this forum has the worst attitude I've ever seen , in that respect.
you'd be better off just keeping your cake hole full of cake, at this point.


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## SonnyThomas

Back to the subject.......

I know of a few damn good shooters that "straight arm" compound bows, but it's not for me. I've got pictures of them on the line. Chance B. use to use a "straight arm," but has since changed. What these people do have is the bow arm shoulder set low or how ever you want to describe it. They still maintain somewhat of the 45 degree hand set to the riser and have the preferred low grip.

Okay, I have a new server and it sucks. Limited to Dial Up way out in the country and way down in the valley. My new server is slower than my old one and I can't get those Tube videos to play. 2 and 3 minutes for 2 or 3 seconds of a video is maddening. Again, what I saw was Reverend having a straight bow arm or near straight bow arm. I am of the Randy Ulmer set; "Elbow bent acts like a shock absorber."

Draw length is not figured by just getting in the ball park and adjusting as you go or getting the right float. Common things come up and are hyped to no end. Tip of the nose, corner of the mouth is promoted. Tell Steve Boylan he's doing it wrong. Steve also had elbow problems and just a year ago had surgery. Before surgery his bow arm was more a "V," chicken wing set if you will. During this time he placed and won more often than not. 

Bow arm "strong" is paramount, but it also has to be comfortable, not strained. Bow hand placement to the riser figures in this.

Most all of the top rung of archery have one thing in common, anchor, or rather a "bone to bone" set of the release hand to the jaw line. All well seem to have the index and middle finger aligned to the jaw line and if anything, forward, as not get the knuckles of the release hand so far back that "rocking" comes. Knuckles too far back and the index and middle fingers begin to angle away from the jaw line. So draw length figures here also - whether adjusted through the bow or d-loop. 
"Puff" or whatever his AT name was stands a good six foot something tall. He is not T-Rex armed or gorilla arm. He was well on to being a super spot shooter when issues came up. His bow was set to 27" and adjusted to fit him through a overly long d-loop. I shot with him and can tell you he was pure poison. 30 shots and one damned ragged hole on the Vegas face. Lord! If I could stay in the 10 ring I'd be tickled to death. 

And I don't know what I've missed.....

All of us seem to have knowledge, but we lack translation, can't put all to words. We do things automatically and forget to include such. I caught myself doing such in what was a long Thread just recently. I am of the French tuning use, but French tuning is but part of the tuning process. After finding the best center shot French tuning is followed with playing with the rest height or string nock height to see if groups can be tightened. Even different points weights are used to see if things can be made even better. I don't go to such extremes as I no longer shoot Field or Outdoor, but I sure did when I did shoot Field and Outdoor. Disbelievers have at it. When shooting Field I was "ticked off" big time if I missed that 80 yard bull's eye. I think I missed it once when competing in Field for 2 1/2 years. My scream is probably echoing somewhere. Nope, never a top Field shooter, 530 or so and oddly enough when I missed it was of the shorter range. 

And then; One on one with a coach and he has hands on and verbal ability. We don't......


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## dua lam pa

Lazarus said:


> From personal experience, the reason most of those 97% don't post is because of people who haven't won anything that pretend to know it all.
> 
> Reverend, My personal apologies to you for taking this topic on a wrong turn. I had followed it all the way along and saw so many topics being discussed I saw no harm in it. I was wrong. Good shooting to you.


Your apology should be directed towards N77 -


----------



## Reverend

While I'm still playing with the weights on my stabs, I did notice that my float improves with less weight. Right now there's about 6 ounces on the side and 6 up front. It holds better with less weight up front. 
Does this indicate anything? Are some shooters "weight shy?"


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## dua lam pa

Reverend said:


> While I'm still playing with the weights on my stabs, I did notice that my float improves with less weight. Right now there's about 6 ounces on the side and 6 up front. It holds better with less weight up front.
> Does this indicate anything? Are some shooters "weight shy?"


 Do not get overly worried about your stab set up being to light or not like the Johnsons. 
The "smallest -slowest " float does not produce the best shot for all archers. If you are shooting sub con , and no hammering the trigger your brain will create closure and nail the X for you. 
As a rule of thumb , i would recommend about as much weight as you can hold up with your bow hand extended ( like your shooting ) for at least 30 seconds - Yu need to be able to shoot at least 200 shots - 
To get started I set my stabs up so when I draw back , and hit anchor I am in the yellow. Personally I like a poppy bow , one that jumps forward after the shot , heavy up front - however like yourself my my front end is light so I can acquire the target with less energy. 
very personal stabs are - in the end you need to shoot it out and see what works best for you - 
Shoot one arrow at a time with you front stab only - no weights on the side bar , until you get a nice tight vertical line , then start adding weigh and playing with the angle until the side bar flattens the line to a single hole - 10 yards 
Thats just me


----------



## Reverend

dua lam pa said:


> Again I would like to suggest you get over the front of your shot , put a brick under your rear foot if you need to get a feel of getting over your shot -


Thanks Dua...
Can you please elaborate on this?


----------



## dua lam pa

Reverend said:


> Thanks Dua...
> Can you please elaborate on this?



At the risk of spoiling the soup , but you ask for it.

Your shot seems very flaccid for lack of a better word. Your just kinda standing there , there is no direction ( forward nor rearward ) Your hips seem to be on an akward angle.
This is going to make fora soft bow shoulder , bow shoulders cause the most problems with aiming and are basically the root of all evil. Ask me how I know. I was coached out of a shoulder problem not so long ago.:dark beer: I could aim very well with a soft , shoulder and even produced very competitive scores. 
I suggest rather than taking that road , I suggest you might want to try and fix the problem ( yes its a problem if your goal is to become the best you can be) rather than deal with it again 2 years down the road when your shooting 60XS at home and 56Xs when it counts. Weak shoulders forsake shooters when it counts the most- 
If you slide a 2x4 under your rear foot ( heel ) this is going to give your shot a direction - forward - ( getting over your shot ) - your bow shoulder will be closer to the target than your hip. This will force you to load or even preload the bow shoulder . By doing this combined with really pulling into the stops your going to understand what dynamic pressure is in your back. For this you shall be rewarded a sight picture like you have never seen before. As an added bonus your not going to have to fight to get that release to let go. This comes from pulling on back half of the shot , and the week shoulder however subtle , is " collapsing " toward your release hand. In short , no dynamic tension. 
You will know when your doing right , you will find yourself urning for less let off ( holding around 20lbs or more, I am hanging on to 25 + lbs. ) - 
All this can be done with your DL close , personally I prefer shorter than perfect , I physically pull as hard as the bow will allow , 1/4 past my stops and getting into over loading the limbs is where my dynamic tension is full kilter. Be warned that playing with stance directly effects DL as well , so find a happy medium stick with it work on one thing at a time or you will accomplish nothing other than being counter productive. Toms book is a great tool , keep in mind a lot of that info deals with the mind set of competitive archery , find the shot and the sequence that works for you , this is where I would place my concentration if possible. 
Again , a good hands on coach is the best investment in archery.

Now you boys can unleash the lions -


----------



## Reverend

Fair enough. I'll try that little trick. Thanks. 
I do know what you mean about using a lower let-off. It really makes you feel those back muscles. 
However when I pull that hard into the wall to feel those muscles, the arm shakes begin and the sight picture deteriorates. 

Also I can disagree with you about using a coach. I just don't know any down this way that have the expertise to "fix me." 
Think about it. In this thread alone, we've had coaches weigh in, and there's no real consensus. Form looks solid... form looks weak... DL looks perfect... DL looks short... wrist is bent... stance looks good... stance looks crooked... 
I know I asked for it, but I'm a little sceptical about what an average coach can do for me. Hiring a great coach is not that easy.


----------



## Reverend

Reverend said:


> Fair enough. I'll try that little trick. Thanks.
> I do know what you mean about using a lower let-off. It really makes you feel those back muscles.
> However when I pull that hard into the wall to feel those muscles, the arm shakes begin and the sight picture deteriorates.
> 
> Also I *can disagree* with you about using a coach. I just don't know any down this way that have the expertise to "fix me."
> Think about it. In this thread alone, we've had coaches weigh in, and there's no real consensus. Form looks solid... form looks weak... DL looks perfect... DL looks short... wrist is bent... stance looks good... stance looks crooked...
> I know I asked for it, but I'm a little sceptical about what an average coach can do for me. Hiring a great coach is not that easy.



Oops. My bad. I meant to say "*cannot* disagree with you."


----------



## EPLC

Reverend said:


> Oops. My bad. I meant to say "*cannot* disagree with you."


Reverend has the same issue that many of us have. I'm the most knowledgeable archery person I know within any reasonable distance... and I'm not anywhere near knowledgeable enough to fix "me"... Once you reach a certain level (and that level is very relative to your turf) it becomes very difficult for anyone to "really" help you. And while there can be some valuable information gathered on this site, you really need to be able to sift through the crap before you get to anything really useful. I'm still confused about why there is so much concern with pin movement. Movement is inevitable, we all have it and it varies from day to day. If you don't try and control it, it doesn't matter. If it bothers you don't look at it... and certainly don't try to control it.

That said: I'm very interested in dua lam pa's 2X4 under the foot process to fix shoulder issues. Could we get some additional detail on this process? I'm not really understanding what a "weak" shoulder is. I do know that I tend to collapse my elbow inward as I pull through the shot... making it difficult to fire my release.


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## N7709K

If things are collapsing during the shot you are working only one side and not balancing the pressure while expanding through the shot.


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## montigre

N7709K said:


> If things are collapsing during the shot you are working only one side and not balancing the pressure while expanding through the shot.


I can attest to the truth of this statement. As an archer recovering from bow side shoulder surgery, if you collapse in the front from a weak shoulder, you lose everything--hold, stability, consistency, execution, etc and as a result, a lot of little demons sneak in to take the place of your once strong foundation. Shifting your weight forward is one very good way to assist in retraining the small muscles in the front side to carry their weight in proportion to what's being applied from the back end by "repositioning", thus balancing, the forces that are being applied. Shifting the hips forward toward the target at the beginning of the draw cycle can also produce similar results, but is not quite as drastic.


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## N7709K

One trick I do is tune bars and then add more weight to the main; if you collapses your dot gives instant feedback as it falls out the spot. When you have push matching the "pull" the dot sits steady even with the extra weight out front


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## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> If things are collapsing during the shot you are working only one side and not balancing the pressure while expanding through the shot.


or your shoulder is not set up proper - You can push all day and if the alignment is not there the shoulder will " ride up " and become ineffective - I am not talking about "collapsing " I am talking about not getting thru the clicker on a recurve , or getting the hinge to pop after the click , were talking .10 and even .06 - Its very very common


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## N7709K

If your shoulder is high there isn't a push; there was no force keeping the bow side and bow side shoulder engaged. Whether incorrect setup or collapsed; there was no push.


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## dua lam pa

N7709K said:


> If your shoulder is high there isn't a push; there was no force keeping the bow side and bow side shoulder engaged. Whether incorrect setup or collapsed; there was no push.


 Many people teach using your arm as a post - you simply use the arm as a support system - raise the bow draw , 
NO Push involved - just a reaction 

some bloke going on about the whole NO push thing -


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## Reverend

dua lam pa said:


> Many people teach using your arm as a post - you simply use the arm as a support system - raise the bow draw ,
> NO Push involved - just a reaction
> 
> some bloke going on about the whole NO push thing -



Good ole Alistair Whittingham. A great coach for sure... that I've learned alot from. 
He doesn't advocate using both halves... not even for recurve. 
His explanation on back tension is excellent. Sort of from the same school as Larry Wise and Core Archery.


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## Blue X

N7709K said:


> If things are collapsing during the shot you are working only one side and not balancing the pressure while expanding through the shot.


People should really take into consideration what this guy posts. 
Argue all u want but this statement will stand till the end of bow shooting. All of archery is to accomplish what this guy wrote. Remember it, search for it and obtain it build a form to support it and a sequence to set it up repeatable and u will see ur archery problems go away for ever. 

U show me a man that tells u there is no forward equalized resistance to the back side. I'll show u a man that 
Collapses and his bow shoulder comes up and the sight goes down. 

I promise u if U ever get where u want to go, you'll will then understand Jacobs above statement. Archery is a long hard road when ur preconceived ideas kept you from seeing the facts printed right in front of you. 

Blue x


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## dua lam pa

Blue X said:


> People should really take into consideration what this guy posts.
> Argue all u want but this statement will stand till the end of bow shooting. All of archery is to accomplish what this guy wrote. Remember it, search for it and obtain it build a form to support it and a sequence to set it up repeatable and u will see ur archery problems go away for ever.
> 
> U show me a man that tells u there is no forward equalized resistance to the back side. I'll show u a man that
> Collapses and his bow shoulder comes up and the sight goes down.
> 
> I promise u if U ever get where u want to go, you'll will then understand Jacobs above statement. Archery is a long hard road when ur preconceived ideas kept you from seeing the facts printed right in front of you.
> 
> Blue x



The waters do get muddy when you have very reputable people teaching otherwise. If in the above video Allister simply stated there is no push from the shoulder , it would at least open the door a bit - He also is very clear that this is his personal method of teaching so it is what it is - 

" Archery is a long hard road when ur preconceived ideas kept you from seeing the facts printed right in front of you. " 
This is a truth , sprinkle a bit more dirt into the water please.


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## Lazarus

dua lam pa said:


> " Archery is a long hard road when ur preconceived ideas kept you from seeing the facts printed right in front of you. "
> This is a truth , sprinkle a bit more dirt into the water please.


This is interesting. Respectfully, I was going to disagree with this statement when it was originally made, because I do disagree. I don't see archery as a "long hard road" at all. I see it as fun, challenging, rewarding, and intriguing. (In my view,) what makes it hard is people wanting answers for everything. Some things there are no answers for, example; how can Reo Wilde excel when he has poor (looking) alignment? And how did Michelle Ragsdale shoot lights out for two thirds of her career with her draw elbow pointing skyward? The answer is this; they found something that worked for them, right or wrong, they perfected it to the point that it was repeatable, every, single, time. Yet that's not an answer to the question that plays well, because everyone is looking for the "other" answer, the perfect hinge, the best stabilizer, the perfect stance. Although no one really spends a lot of time talking about it repeat ability is the holy grail of shooting an arrow from a bow, it's just that simple. Right or wrong, if you do it the same every time, the arrow is going to go in the same hole every time. And yes, again, it's just that simple, easy, and fun. 

Cheers guys and gals.


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## N7709K

to clarify a bit... the "push" im talking about isn't so much "pushing" as it is the byproduct of engaging and balancing both halves through the shot; as the contraction occurs in the back, expansion happens in the chest. This expansion drives the hands apart; and is evident upon release(watch alistair shoot the one arrow he does, pay attention to the reaction of the bow side when the shot breaks- it is engaged, not static....). Push isn't really what is happening; simplest terms to get across the reaction is describing it as a push. I'm not saying push enough to bring your shoulder forward; i'm saying engage both sides. when the shot breaks the bow shouldn't remain static; during the shot pressure between the shooter and the bow increased, some of that increase should translate into bow side followthru.

when both halves are engaged one side isn't handling all the pressure while the other tries to remain static; as the pressure builds on the release side, so does the pressure on the bow side and your dot doesn't leave the middle- the bow side doesn't collapse. after a point there are more benefits to shooting both halves engaged... if you need to shoot 2-300 scoring arrows a day and need to shoot 10's on arrow number 300 just as much as arrow number one balancing and working both halves will make that much easier.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> This is interesting. Respectfully, I was going to disagree with this statement when it was originally made, because I do disagree. I don't see archery as a "long hard road" at all. I see it as fun, challenging, rewarding, and intriguing. (In my view,) what makes it hard is people wanting answers for everything. Some things there are no answers for, example; how can Reo Wilde excel when he has poor (looking) alignment? And how did Michelle Ragsdale shoot lights out for two thirds of her career with her draw elbow pointing skyward? The answer is this; they found something that worked for them, right or wrong, they perfected it to the point that it was repeatable, every, single, time. Yet that's not an answer to the question that plays well, because everyone is looking for the "other" answer, the perfect hinge, the best stabilizer, the perfect stance. Although no one really spends a lot of time talking about it repeat ability is the holy grail of shooting an arrow from a bow, it's just that simple. Right or wrong, if you do it the same every time, the arrow is going to go in the same hole every time. And yes, again, it's just that simple, easy, and fun.
> 
> Cheers guys and gals.


You know, I can't really argue here, the fun part and bow repeating. I guess the object of Reverend's quest is to pound H__ out of the X ring at 20 yards. Not too long ago, a 3 or 4 weeks ago, I tried to bare shaft tune out to 20 yards. Didn't happen. I got close, but a "mile" away. I don't have yokes and wouldn't yoke tune if I did. That I R basically lazy I dang well wasn't going change shims around. But here's the result. Not on target because I had the rest out in left field, but look at the fletched groups and the bare shaft group. I probably shot a half dozen times - so 12 fletched and bare shaft 6 times. The fletched arrows are trying real hard to go in the same hole. The bare shaft, look close, was just past the line in the first picture and just in the white in the third. So 1" wide group? Sighted in the dang X ring would have been dead meat..... Just noticed the 6" scale - upside down, but 2" showing ....Heck, both groups might have caught the edges, but given X ring hits. 1.57" in diameter, isn't it?


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> to clarify a bit... the "push" im talking about isn't so much "pushing" as it is the byproduct of engaging and balancing both halves through the shot; as the contraction occurs in the back, expansion happens in the chest. This expansion drives the hands apart; and is evident upon release(watch alistair shoot the one arrow he does, pay attention to the reaction of the bow side when the shot breaks- it is engaged, not static....). Push isn't really what is happening; simplest terms to get across the reaction is describing it as a push. I'm not saying push enough to bring your shoulder forward; i'm saying engage both sides. when the shot breaks the bow shouldn't remain static; during the shot pressure between the shooter and the bow increased, some of that increase should translate into bow side followthru.
> 
> when both halves are engaged one side isn't handling all the pressure while the other tries to remain static; as the pressure builds on the release side, so does the pressure on the bow side and your dot doesn't leave the middle- the bow side doesn't collapse. after a point there are more benefits to shooting both halves engaged... if you need to shoot 2-300 scoring arrows a day and need to shoot 10's on arrow number 300 just as much as arrow number one balancing and working both halves will make that much easier.



I've heard people teaching and describing back tension as trying to crush a can between the shoulder blades. 
Some described it as holding an arrow close to your chest and trying to pull it apart. These use "both halves." 
Are these the sensations that you're describing Jacob?


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## Reverend

So many questions....
When using both halves, is the release elbow moving straight back, or is the shoulder rotating and making the tip of the elbow move to the left (for a right handed shooter). 

Also can you describe what the release elbow looks like after the explosion of the shot? I'm not sure everyone's arm, hand and shoulder will react the same, but when using both halves, I'm assuming it would look similar from person to person. What does that follow through look like?


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## N7709K

those "sensations" are a rough feel of what the back should be doing when learning to shoot with back tension. That feeling of squeezing the shoulder blades together/expanding through the chest can be there but both sides not engaged; those feeling are saying that the back is engaged. when both halves are engaged you will feel as if things are balanced and you aren't fighting the bow in either direction- it doesn't want to move out of the spot and it just wants to sit at full draw. as the shot progresses the tension builds between the hands, as both sides are moving away from eachother you don't hit the wall of full extension but the release hasn't popped. 

relax your upper body and hook your hands loosely together infront of your chest. slowly squeeze your shoulderblades together and watch your hands. now pull you hands apart evenly while squeezing your shoulderblades together; having both halves engaged feels something like that. 

when engaging both halves at the shot both sides will move down and back- the release side elbow will track down and back, the hand tracks inline with the arrow past the face and may move behind the head depending how far the release side comes back in your followthru. the bow side will track back and down due to the expansion in the chest pushing the hands apart and as the weight of the bow settles into the bow side after the inital followthru of the bow.


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## SonnyThomas

Here's a write up by Stanislawski of years back, by Stanislawski, not some afterwards person.
Don't thin it needs to be here or outdated, contact Mahley and have it removed.

Back Tension Explained
The word back tension is used often when describing shot execution. Many shooters are mysti-it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger. Ultimately, it is a confusing distraction that takes our mind off aiming, and aiming is the most important task that must be completed without distraction to complete the perfect shot. Without perfect aim, feel. We refer to it as dynamic tension. Dynamic Tension is set up at the beginning of the draw and it continues through the release of the arrow. We feel that it is second only to aiming as the key fundamental part of shooting form that generates accuracy and consistency. The feel that you get with Dynamic Tension is the constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim.

What is Dynamic Tension?
Dynamic Tension is a simple technique. You need to feel a balance between the solid bow arm and the pulling pressure of the release hand. The feeling should be like stretching a band be-tween your bow hand and your release hand. This stretch increases as you commit to the shot.
Most pro shooters set up their dynamic tension when they raise the bow to the target. The muscles that you use to draw the bow are the very same muscles that you use to aim the bow, and the back muscles will give you the most stability. As you reach full draw you should pull the bow into the stops and continue to apply mild pressure as you align your peep with the scope and the dot with the X. Once everything is centered and anchored in the center of the target, you will then commit to the shot. Slightly increase the tension against the bow. Begin relaxing the hand through the shot (we will explain relaxing through the shot a little later.) Dynamic Tension reduces the amount of muscle groups involved in the shot. This will
diminish muscle tremors that can cause sudden misses, quick shots, and general unsteadiness.

Activating the Release by Relaxing Through the Shot
Whether you are using a triggerless Stan or one of our models that are trigger activated, the technique is the same with only minor adjustments. The art of activating the release is pretty basic. Essentially what should happen is as you pull against the bow and build dynamic tension between you and the bow, you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise re-lease. If you are shooting a Thumb button the you will start with a heavier than normal trigger tension. Wrap your thumb or finger over the trigger and apply a tiny amount of pressure to it. As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the button or trigger. This slight transfer of pressure as you relax your hand through the shot will cause a nice smooth surprise release. Ultimately you are striving for a surprise release. You do not want to be concerned when it is going to fire.
A perfect shot would seem something like this: You draw the bow and squeeze into the stops. You align the peep and scope and bring the target into view. You will give it a half a beat to begin its normal motion in the center of the target (depending on experience this will be a little wobbly or very steady. Practice and conditioning will improve your hold over time.) Your sight is as steady as it ever gets and you commit to the shot. Allow your Dynamic tension to build on your release fingers through pulling into the stops. The tip of your elbow is in perfect line with the dot in your scope and it is pulling straight away. To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released. You hold the form for about 3 beats for follow through and you are ready to reset. You have just shot a perfect arrow. You can adjust the speed of your release to get the proper feel and timing.

Transferring the Feel to Your Bow
As you get used to the feel of Dynamic Tension and you get used to yielding through the re-lease to activate the shot, your exercise with the shooting loop will be important. It will help you memorize the feel and commit it to muscle memory. The more automatic these motions are before you go to the bow, the more consistent your shot sequence will be. An easy way to transfer the feel to your bow is to shoot at a very close range without a target. When shooting the blank bale, it is important that you do not aim at anything, and resist the temptation to aim at your previous arrow. The point of this exercise is to acquaint yourself with the feel of shoot-
ing with your new release without the extra distraction of aiming. Remember, these exercises can be boring and it is tempting to skip forward and begin shooting as normal, but the more time you spend here developing a broad foundation through these exercises; the more accurate you will be in the long run. Spend enough time at this stage to get your shot execution as nor-mal and comfortable as you can. Compare the feel to the shooting string to be sure that you have it down.

Incorporating the Feel Into Your Full Shot Routine
The final step is to learn to aim and commit shot execution to muscle memory and allow it to happen naturally. For many shooters, sight movement and release problems are correlated, so learning to accept sight movement and continue with great shot execution is important. One of the best ways to accomplish this is to start off shooting targets at a very close range. Set up a target and shoot a few well aimed shots at 5 yards. Be mindful of the release and be sure that the feel and speed feels the same as it does with your string and the bow on the blank bale. Once you are comfortable with this, you can step back to ten yards. If you really want to get the full use of this exercise you can shoot full games on your favorite target to build confidence and get used to the feel of the automatic release while your sight moves in the center of the target. When you feel like you have it down and your shot execution feels great, you can step back to 15 yards and repeat. Slowly stepping back and gradually getting used to accepting sight movement will help your shot execution remain con-sistent. As you get better and become a stronger archer, your sight movement will get smaller and smaller and your average will rise along with your improve-ments. Following these simple steps to acquaint yourself with your new Stan release and its function will take you a long way towards higher scores and overall consistency."


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## Reverend

Nice write up. Thanks for posting Sonny.


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## Reverend

Well I was off today and decided to hit the range and do some more filming at my longer DL. 
I even went topless... Hehe. Yes I took my shirt off and filmed my back to see if there was any dynamic tension that could be identified. That clip revealed no movement from my back muscles during the execution. 
Thanks for you guys weighing in again. Feel free to comment when the uploads are complete... which by the looks of things will be sometime tomorrow.


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## Reverend

I think DLP posted this earlier but I couldn't get the link to work. 
Coach Allistair explaining dynamic tension. Though he doesn't advocate pushing with the bow arm, he does advocate balancing both halves. Who would of thunk it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X49xdu1wGdo


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## Blue X

Reverend said:


> I think DLP posted this earlier but I couldn't get the link to work.
> Coach Allistair explaining dynamic tension. Though he doesn't advocate pushing with the bow arm, he does advocate balancing both halves. Who would of thunk it?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X49xdu1wGdo


Your missing the transfer and load step in your shot sequence, If you dont transfer anything to your back, there will not be anything back there. 

Blue X


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## Reverend

Blue X said:


> Your missing the transfer and load step in your shot sequence, If you dont transfer anything to your back, there will not be anything back there.
> 
> Blue X


I AGREE! If I could figure out how to do that consistently, I would be happier than a pig in a wallow!


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## Reverend

Ok here is the first of 4 of the most recent. uploading to youtube is solo sloooowww.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5zxtWXjQWk&feature=youtu.be


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## SonnyThomas

Grrrrr! Dial Up sucks. How were your shots around 3:17 and 3:43 compared to others?


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## Reverend

SonnyThomas said:


> Grrrrr! Dial Up sucks. How were your shots around 3:17 and 3:43 compared to others?


They felt similar. It looks a little like an exaggerated follow through... indicative of using arm muscles rather than back. 
When I post the vid of my "topless" back. Careful don't get excited. LOL. That vid, to me, shows no movement from my back half. Front looks ok. But hey what do I know? I'm obviously having trouble transferring the weight to my back. Not only that, but since I went with a lower let-off, I'm also finding it difficult drawing with that nice arc. I begin high and end low using my chest. Kinda weird... I'll probably take off 7+ pounds to see if the draw improves. 
I've been shooting for almost 30 years, and just realizing I may have been doing it all wrong. I hope this old dog can learn a new trick... Hehe.


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## SonnyThomas

Dial Up. Understand? All other shots gave the impression of dropping or pulling down your release arm.... Okay, me seeing this on dog azzz slow Dial Up. Yeah, I'd rather see a exaggerated follow through than the release arm dropping like a brick...

Forget the video stuff. You will not see your back contract or muscles tighten/bulge unless trying so hard you're pulling yourself in half.


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## montigre

Reverend, I thought this latest video shows a huge overall improvement from the first set....much better form, better draw arm angle, better hold (yeah, I was looking through your scope), better anchor, much better wrist positioning, and better use of back muscles during the beginning shots. 

I agree that it may be better, at least at this early stage of relearning, to lower your DW a little as it appeared that as you fatigued from shooting, you started having some difficulty transferring the weight to the back and began allowing your draw shoulder to creep upward during anchoring--this first becomes evident to my eye at 3:42 with your #4 arrow and progressively got a little more pronounced with each shot until you emptied your quiver. You're going to have to find that "happy place" between DW and HW that will give you the best hold and allow you to comfortably shoot the number of arrows needed for your chosen game.

Finally, I realize that you were trying to be "time conscious" while shooting the video, but you really need to give your muscles much more recovery time between shots....especially shooting 65%-ish letoff.

With that said, great job!!! And yes, an old dog can and should continue to learn new tricks!!


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## Reverend

Here we go. Vid #2. Draw length about 3/8 longer than first vid. 28.25 in. actual. 65% L.O. 
Bow arm straight but not locked. Shots at 1:10, 2:20 and 3:35 felt better than the rest, but not great...
Topless will be next... oh boy!! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZFXZ8apaH4&feature=youtu.be


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## SonnyThomas

Well, today the ole Dial Up is slower than molasses in the cold of January. 10 minutes and 2.5 seconds of the video...

Perturbed, went out and grabbed the bow. Bow shoulder sore - did something, but don't know what. Back ache - wandering disc not wanting to play well (forget technical word). Bow elbow burning - always has since Cubical surgery. Set sight of 25 yards - lazy, didn't want to walk 5 more yards to the 20 yard line. Bit of inward quartering left to right breeze, not bad, but had to watch. No warm up, just shootin'. 4 arrows was enough and back to the air conditioning... Find a team of horses big enough to drag me to a indoor and I might shoot it....maybe....

Always playing/changing something. Present stab/back bar set up. Same 30" Cartel, but 1 ounce end weight and Monster Jax for 1.5 ounces of weight on the end. Total Cartel wt., 7 ounces. Had a 10" Stinger back bar with 6 ounces on the end.Changed back to Bernie's whatever you call it. 2 1/4" drop to attachment rods for shaker balls, 3 3/4" to center of mass of the aluminum shaker balls. Left ball, gel and weights, 3 ounces. Right ball, gel and weights, 2.5 ounces. Total wt. of Bernie's thing, 12 ounces. Bow weighs exactly 7 pounds 2 ounces. 7/27/13 photo.


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## dua lam pa

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, today the ole Dial Up is slower than molasses in the cold of January. 10 minutes and 2.5 seconds of the video...
> 
> Perturbed, went out and grabbed the bow. Bow shoulder sore - did something, but don't know what. Back ache - wandering disc not wanting to play well (forget technical word). Bow elbow burning - always has since Cubical surgery. Set sight of 25 yards - lazy, didn't want to walk 5 more yards to the 20 yard line. Bit of inward quartering left to right breeze, not bad, but had to watch. No warm up, just shootin'. 4 arrows was enough and back to the air conditioning... Find a team of horses big enough to drag me to a indoor and I might shoot it....maybe....
> 
> Always playing/changing something. Present stab/back bar set up. Same 30" Cartel, but 1 ounce end weight and Monster Jax for 1.5 ounces of weight on the end. Total Cartel wt., 7 ounces. Had a 10" Stinger back bar with 6 ounces on the end.Changed back to Bernie's whatever you call it. 2 1/4" drop to attachment rods for shaker balls, 3 3/4" to center of mass of the aluminum shaker balls. Left ball, gel and weights, 3 ounces. Right ball, gel and weights, 2.5 ounces. Total wt. of Bernie's thing, 12 ounces. Bow weighs exactly 7 pounds 2 ounces. 7/27/13 photo.


I can mail you a few fresh 5 spots if need be sir !


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## SonnyThomas

No thanks. Just lazy. Must have 500+ in garage, 100 DAIR, maybe (quivering) 50 Vegas. Even have template for cutting cardboard. Gotta stack of cardboard. 
Target bales just plain shot out. Have to fold target like it is to keep from blowing through. Waiting for club to order. Delivery is on a area delivery thing - to keep down on cost. New ones ordered weigh 256 pounds I think - ouchie cost if just one delivered .


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## Reverend

dua lam pa said:


> I can mail you a few fresh 5 spots if need be sir !


Haha. That's what I was thinking...
Com'n Sonny, pm me your address, and I'll ship you a few...


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## SonnyThomas

Worked at a archery shop. Shop closed. Guess how many targets I have? Start with 1K. Yeah, I'm kinda lazy, but I use new targets ever so often, see? What do you think of my new blank bale?


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## SonnyThomas

Some days...when it's like 26 degrees puttin' the arrows in close and tight is enough.
Then days when you forget to glue on all the fletchings.
You forget to set the sight and mess up, but then how many shot went in the lower hole?
Can't remember. I think Bill, Gary and someone else was present. First shot of the day and I quit - didn't want to mess up a pretty picture.


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## Reverend

Saweet!!!


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## N7709K

when you're starting your draw you can watch your bow side shoulder rise up; some of that may be due to drawing mainly with the arms, but some is just how the steps have worked together into your routine. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc6N5DfwkRc
- i apologize first for the extra weight and secondly for the uphill angle; its not ideal, but shoulder alignment is still good. as i setup the shot and start to raise for the draw i transfer the majority of the weight to my back- similar to recurve setup. my back remains engaged and most of the weight is drawn with my back.


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> when you're starting your draw you can watch your bow side shoulder rise up; some of that may be due to drawing mainly with the arms, but some is just how the steps have worked together into your routine.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc6N5DfwkRc
> - i apologize first for the extra weight and secondly for the uphill angle; its not ideal, but shoulder alignment is still good. as i setup the shot and start to raise for the draw i transfer the majority of the weight to my back- similar to recurve setup. my back remains engaged and most of the weight is drawn with my back.


Jacob-
I think my raised shoulder has to do with the increased holding weight, AND that fact that I was trying to draw with a high release elbow. It felt weird, and I would finish the draw pulling across my chest. I've been playing with the draw and think I finally am making some progress with it. 

When I look at your vid I see your back side shoulder blade moving towards the spine and staying at an equal distance from the spine that your front side shoulder blade is. Using both halves. When I post my vid (sorry it is still uploading... cheap DSL connection), I too bring my back side shoulder towards the spine when I draw, but as I come to anchor, the shoulder blade moves back away from spine??? It's like I lose the tension on it... but I don't know how to get it back. Hopefully when you see it, you can make further comments. Also on that video, it looks like my back side shoulder is a little higher than the front side...


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## Reverend

And now... 
For the main event...
And your viewing pleasure...
A rear view of Reverend... topless!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b975erK5COM&feature=youtu.be

No comments about the flab please.


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## N7709K

i pulled a couple stills from the vid i put up... 









as i start my draw bow side is extended and there is light pressure between the bow side and the grip. on the release side the back is already engaged and the arm is relaxed. i'm running 60lbs(there abouts, haven't put it on a scale) with 25lbs+ of holding weight, might be up around 28lbs(don't have my bow sitting here to check where i got the peg and all that).









when i come to full draw and am at holding the weight is all held in the back; i don't have a defined transfer stage, enough repetition and things have blended plus i also start out with my back engaged and bearing the majority of the weight.









as the shot breaks the release side comes down and back and the shoulderblades come together; in your vid there isn't much of any movement shown in the shoulders as the shot breaks, same for the arms.... not saying that it needs to be exaggerated, but there should be movement in the back.


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## SonnyThomas

Kept seeing that black line and figuring out what it was to represent and it's $#%#@ arrow stuck in your back pocket...:embara:


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## SonnyThomas

Stabs (2 or 3 threads going), stance, shot execution....Got this rollin' around in my brain and it won't quit.... Bow properly tuned, correct arrow, say 8" 8 to 10 ounce front stabilizer should be reasonably accurate out to reasonably long distance, say 60 yards. Bow fitted to person is good....No, bow fitted to person is best....
Boss gave me this bow for being a nice guy (yeah, I know what you're thinking). Did this and that and did it well enough that my sight setting for the Sure Loc didn't change...Lucky... Forgive me the Pearson and price tag, but yep, that new to being set up. Stubby thing, 33 1/2" ata. Stabilizer, NAP 8" 10 1/2 ounce Shock Blocker. 
Same weekend, won a 60 yard Novelty event with 1 shot only, dead center of black baseball size bull's eye. ATer ratsodav present. He screamed.

Okay, day one, 40 yards, 6 arrows, 293 fps. Clipped the X ring a bit, all arrows cleanly within the bull's eye. Later I tweaked it a bit  I have no doubt I could have shot a 300 with it just like you it. Sold it to this guy that also thinks it shoots pretty good.


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## Reverend

Experimenting tonight. I tried a slight bend in the draw arm along with a higher arc in my draw. I think it looks better than the previous one?


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## Reverend

This is the previous one compared to the most recent. No real definition in shoulder blade movement.


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## Reverend

N7709K said:


> i pulled a couple stills from the vid i put up...
> 
> View attachment 1981522
> 
> 
> as i start my draw bow side is extended and there is light pressure between the bow side and the grip. on the release side the back is already engaged and the arm is relaxed. i'm running 60lbs(there abouts, haven't put it on a scale) with 25lbs+ of holding weight, might be up around 28lbs(don't have my bow sitting here to check where i got the peg and all that).
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1981523
> 
> 
> when i come to full draw and am at holding the weight is all held in the back; i don't have a defined transfer stage, enough repetition and things have blended plus i also start out with my back engaged and bearing the majority of the weight.
> 
> View attachment 1981524
> 
> 
> as the shot breaks the release side comes down and back and the shoulderblades come together; in your vid there isn't much of any movement shown in the shoulders as the shot breaks, same for the arms.... not saying that it needs to be exaggerated, but there should be movement in the back.



I see the symetry between both halves. I don't have that... yet. I also don't see that explosion in my follow through that you have. 
I'm trying to get there. Aaarrgh.


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## Reverend

SonnyThomas said:


> Stabs (2 or 3 threads going), stance, shot execution....Got this rollin' around in my brain and it won't quit.... Bow properly tuned, correct arrow, say 8" 8 to 10 ounce front stabilizer should be reasonably accurate out to reasonably long distance, say 60 yards. Bow fitted to person is good....No, bow fitted to person is best....
> Boss gave me this bow for being a nice guy (yeah, I know what you're thinking). Did this and that and did it well enough that my sight setting for the Sure Loc didn't change...Lucky... Forgive me the Pearson and price tag, but yep, that new to being set up. Stubby thing, 33 1/2" ata. Stabilizer, NAP 8" 10 1/2 ounce Shock Blocker.
> Same weekend, won a 60 yard Novelty event with 1 shot only, dead center of black baseball size bull's eye. ATer ratsodav present. He screamed.
> 
> Okay, day one, 40 yards, 6 arrows, 293 fps. Clipped the X ring a bit, all arrows cleanly within the bull's eye. Later I tweaked it a bit  I have no doubt I could have shot a 300 with it just like you it. Sold it to this guy that also thinks it shoots pretty good.



Sonny, you're out of control! 
Good shootin!


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## Blue X

Reverend said:


> Experimenting tonight. I tried a slight bend in the draw arm along with a higher arc in my draw. I think it looks better than the previous one?
> View attachment 1981708


well that an improvement. Looks really good (im not hitting on you) I can clearly see low shoulders, draw side blade positioned to help hold your bow up as well as out, release blade pulled in against your spine. The line of pressure comes thru your arm across your back and into your other arm. Your chest is expanded and your back is doing all the work. Now I call this getting in between the bow. your shoulders can not collapse in this position as long as you dont lose tension in the back. 

Now get that bow down to 27 3/4" and get your weight up over that front foot so you dont have the slight lean back. 

Good Job Reverend. 

Thanks for cropping that pic!!
Blue X


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## Blue X

Now if you will shorten that draw length up to 27 3/4 and get your weight over your front foot, that red line of where your spine is now can come up to the green line where it needs to be. 

The shoulders and bow arm look good. I see great blade placement in your draw arm and when you shorten up i will see more pronounced blade placement in your bow arm side. I would like to see three parallel lines in your back. The middle is your spine and the inside of blades running parallel on each side. Draw side is great, I think you can get the other side with the two steps mentioned above. 

You did good work today. Watch Jessie Broadwater in yankton video for pure perfection in archery.

Blue X


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## N7709K

Stick an arrow in the waistband of your pants under the release side arm and work on standing up straight; I wouldn't change dl


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## SonnyThomas

Reverend said:


> Saweet!!!


Thank you.



Reverend said:


> Sonny, you're out of control!
> Good shootin!


Thank you. Me let's it run wild. Hold it back and it'll eat me up.

Of the course the jest of things. Bow won't shoot, fix bow before graduating to target type stabs. Shooter can't shoot, fix shooter.

Got lots of good information. Glad someone said to shorten up draw - that should straighten the back. Don't worry about explosive reaction. None of us are the same. DH says a I explode. DH and JB say I don't move and the arrow is in the target.
N7709K, his last picture, my release arm will not do that. Tried it typing this....maybe rust age. 

Videos of the top guys, you don't see everything. Right there to watch time and again, they almost look like they are going to sleep before they shoot. Relaxed, but poised for the "kill." Think unmoving fluid motion...


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## Reverend

Oh my…
Two well respected shooters. 
Two different suggestions for DL?? 
I would like to know reasons… 
I don't normally lean back… exept for that pic. I think I was trying so hard to have my muscles engage, that I forgot posture…


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## SonnyThomas

??? Look at corner of wall at release arm, were you angled or twisted a bit?


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## SonnyThomas

I'd shoo the bow for a while and see how things are.

Me, bow arm out, strong, bow hand feeling the riser grip from web of hand straight off palm of hand. Okay, both should be comfortable, repeatable. 
Release hand, knuckles of hand in front of corner of jaw. Same with index and middle finger, aligned to jaw bone.

I've already put up pictures of hands to the riser. ??? Maybe one not there and what I did was copy Dave Cousin's hand. I held bow and had my wife ink pin the lines close to the riser. Okay, riser grip is to the inside of the base knuckle of the thumb, deep in the meat of the thumb. My riser grip is thin, .600" thick, so it gets in kind of deep. I pointed out before, seems all the top shooters have their hand way up so that their index of their bow hand looks to be in the way. I've clipped mine with vanes enough I know to curl my finger so it "tickles" the front the riser. 

If you're comfortable have at it....

So much goes into accuracy and most of it has to be ingrained. Like ron_w noted in a reply, people shift their feet and don't know it. Plant them suckers, use a arrow to scribe a line in the dirt. Doesn't repeat, shift one foot or the other, but leave scribe line for planting one foot and shifting the other. In most instances you can shift a foot and instantly see a difference in point of impact. This fine. So impact moves over a 1/2". Shoot to see if it stays there. You put a dozen shots in the same hole that should tells you something. 
Okay, you play and find what works for you...


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## N7709K

back shoulder looks high; but that isn't necessarily a DL issue. other than that alignment is pretty good; that being the case DL shouldn't be adjusted, you just need to stand up straight. I personally don't put much into getting "over the shot/infront of the shot"- if you don't shoot an aggressive shot its a moot point. 

work up close on getting shoulders correct and getting shots flowing how they should; at this point you need to learn your new shot before stance changes matter. If you don't shoot consistent shots trying to make other changes doesn't get you anywhere. after putting x number of shots down range you know the feel that you are working for; you know when its wrong and when its right. If you don't have that feel down making changes to it is a struggle. 

my persepctive of things will be different, but so is the end result - what i look for as end result out of my equip is at a different level and what i train for is also at a different level. I can flog the bale all day and put up scores that will play; but that doesn't mean jack on the line in vegas.... shoot good shots and learn to shoot good shots, now that will play.


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## Blue X

Reverend said:


> Oh my…
> Two well respected shooters.
> Two different suggestions for DL??
> I would like to know reasons…
> I don't normally lean back… exept for that pic. I think I was trying so hard to have my muscles engage, that I forgot posture…


You know Rev I dont really see it as whos right and whos wrong kinda deal. I can agree with Jacob also.

Im am not so sure your at a level to be working on the things hes working on or to be making the trade off he makes to increase his scores. I think Jacob can change dl some and look thru more or less sight movement and to be able to keep strong form thru the shoulders over a wide range to manipulate his bow into giving him a better chance at different games. I can do that also but people that are learning can not manipulate their form and equipment like people who have studied archery seriously for a while. And for the record, I do not disagree with anything Jacob has told you, But from a learning standpoint I think your better off being a fuzz short until you learn to keep your form consistent. I am a firm believer that most shooting troubles come from seeing sight movement. Learning to shoot in my opinion is better done on the fuzz short side to see less movement while you learn to be consistent. Then When you can be consistent with your form, you to can start making trade off to try to improve your scores. I personally can shoot over a 1/2" dl span to have either more accuracy or more consistency. At your stage of learning, I dont really feel your at that point yet and if you dont get a handle on it soon and just start somewhere your going to burn yourself out. 

There are different stages to learning archery that really get people into binds when they are trying to learn. First there is consistency, then accuracy and then consistent accuracy. I think your probably at the stage to be looking more for consistency. When you get that down then proceed to accuracy then to consistent accuracy. All three of these May or may not be the same draw length, but people in general cant stand to go for consistent accuracy from the start. 

I think skipping the learning steps or stages are where most people get some form of what they call "Target Panic" When they reach that point, they have to back up and relearn the parts they skipped. I say dont miss the steps in the first place and you wont have to back up and redo them. I am a fan of being over your shot/ over your front foot to help you keep your bow shoulder down. Bow shoulder being the most important part of form, needs to be protected until you learn to keep it down. 

As far as flogging the bale, I am not sure what he means. I shoot like crazy every night for an hour or so but every night Im working on being strong thru the shoulders and hitting my marks thru my shot, reading my float, Relieving stress and gaining confidence in my shot. This winter I will probably shoot with Jacob at a lot of places Im sure he will beat me sometimes and sometimes I will probably beat him, Im looking forward to learning from him and when he beats me I will be happy for him because I know the work that has to be put in to be at that level. Archery is not man against man, archery is man against himself. If your looking at what you read as someone telling you wrong and someone else telling you right, that not the correct way to view what you read here. Even if things you read dont help you now, they may help you get over the hump when you plateau at different stages. 

I base my statements on the hour and twenty minute conversation we had over the phone Saturday morning. I evaluated your archery knowledge and tried my best to understand where you were in your shooting. My best advice to you is pick something close to armspan divided by 2.5 and shoot till you plateau and then try something different and see how it scores, if worse go the other way and if better keep going that direction till it gets worse. Somewhere in the middle youll find something that you can live with. If you come to see me in oct like you said, I would like for you to be past this stage of thinking that there is a definite right and wrong because there is not. I will force you to start somewhere and to progressively learn as you shoot. In the end you may or may not be longer or shorter on DL. Nobody can look thru your peep or feel your shot but you. All the questions you ask are important but in the end only you can answer them. What I do as a coach is help you gain more knowledge so you can make more informed decisions as you progress in your learning. 

Blue X


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## Blue X

Also I based the 27 3/4" draw length on the information you gave me on the phone. You said by the armspan/2.5 method you we 27 7/8". I recommended starting at 27 3/4" because is only 1/8" less than your measured Dl and now you are 28 1/4". Which is on the long side of your measured draw length. From our conversation I personally think you will not know how to keep your form strong and your bow shoulder will be more apt to ride up as you lean back trying to keep the weight evenly distributed on both feet. 

If you start at 27 3/4", will you be there a year from now, who knows but you have to start somewhere. I would also recommend that you lose the 60yd shooting at this time if your expecting perfect accuracy consistently. My assessment of your personality is one who is overly critical on your self and until you start somewhere and train up to better shooting its going to drive you crazy. Learn close then go longer. Save yourself from feeling stress while you learn. 

Summers half over and your in the middle of outdoor season trying to learn to be better at long distance. Well im saying forget about summer shooting this year and hit the indoor range and set a goal for this winter of consistent 300s on the blue face. Then set you a goal of raising your x count while keeping the consistent 300's on the blue face. Then set you another goal of raising your x count on the blue face. Thats the best target to learn on because the misses can travel a little farther with less penalty on your confidence. 

Every draw length, every form, every shot sequence will have a plateau. Hit the plateau, let it avg out over 10 games and make you a new plan to go higher. Change some stuff make and start over. Not every plan works, when it dont, make you a new plan and start over. Learning archery is a long (for the sake of Lazarus ill leave out hard) road. The scores belong to the people who do the work. Target archery takes about 30-40 combined hours a week to get to and stay at high levels. It is not always fun and the lows are low and the highs are far between sometimes. 

Looking for the magic solution that gives you the scores without doing the work will not happen. You have to start somewhere and work your way up the long (for the sake of Lazarus again ill leave out hard)road. What your looking for is not there to be found, if it was wed all have a dose of it in our quiver. Archery belongs to the people who do the work. If you want archery scores like the pros, put in the work of the pros and learn why you miss, learn what your form is. learn how to shoot again except this time do it more structured and organized.

Now set that sucker to 27 3/4 or 28 and start shooting some indoor targets in a controlled setting and lest see some 10 game averages on a indoor 5 spot. Show us some target pictures and scores so we can read your misses and guide you based on facts and not on the myths of what feels better or looks better or he said she said etc. The end of looking for perfection before you start shooting is burn out. 

(for the sake of Lazarus I will not say archery is hard) I will say sometimes it could make a preacher cuss. 

Blue X


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## N7709K

personally i would say never shoot blue face again; makes for a sloppy game as there is no repercussion for missing the x(talking for majority of shooters). I prefer to learn techniques up close on a blank bale and then move into close games on a vegas face slowly working back; when you start close the need for an easier scoring face is diminished. Don't move back after a set number of arrows or a set number of games; move back after the shots are flowing and things are easy at that distance. the worst thing you can do while making changes is shoot long range for score. 

truth of it is if you want to make the upper end of shooting put 50k+ arrows through your bow in a year, spend countless nights up til 3 or 4am working on setups and getting form just right and then countless more at the range shooting scores and tuning rigs to the game at hand. Anyone who says it isn't hard aint at the upper end, period. but once you get it down, staying competitive isn't as much effort.


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## Reverend

This thread has restored my faith in AT. 
You guys have taken so much time to put out excellent information. Man there is good instruction here. And there's a lot to take in. I do so appreciate it.


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## Lazarus

Blue X said:


> (for the sake of Lazarus I will not say archery is hard) I will say sometimes it could make a preacher cuss.
> 
> Blue X


Well, Thank you for the consideration, I think. But actually you didn’t have to invoke me into this. This has been an interesting topic with it’s twists and turns. It’s been entertaining, I can’t say that I’ve learned a single thing, but I don’t mean that to be a negative. It certainly has provided a lot of food for thought. (The 2x4 under the heel thing is an example.) The thing that I see that is most interesting is this; you have a couple or three decent shooters with basically different ways of getting to the same point. And that is the point I was trying to make with my “repeat ability” post. I hope the Reverend has benefited some from this because it was his topic after all. 

For me, and this is just me, it’s my view, nothing more, I believe he (the Reverend) is suffering a bit from information overload. I am reminded of one of Lanny Basshams principles from the book “With Winning In Mind.” It says something to the effect of “work on one skill at a time, one shot at a time” (my paraphrase.) Pretty solid advice. I believe the Reverend could benefit from that approach from what I’ve seen. This recommendation is probably spot on, can’t we all benefit from that advice? However, without a “face to face” that is only speculation. 
Nevertheless, again, it’s been interesting to see the different opinions posted. 



N7709K said:


> Anyone who says it isn't hard aint at the upper end, period.


First, I do owe you an apology N77….I could have made the post about the straight arm/bent arm, recuve/compound in a better way. Poor choice of words motivated by frustration and a bad attitude on my part at that moment. There’s no secret, our personalities are polar opposites, neither are right or wrong, just different. When talking about archery I never speak in absolutes, I don’t believe there are any. You believe differently, neither is right or wrong, just different. I’ll leave it at that. I will repeat however that my attitude sucked at the moment I made that one post.

Now, to address the post above, because I know it was directed at me; I disagree. I don’t know this to be a fact but I believe it to be correct, if you were to ask Leviticus (only one person who is at the top) if it was “hard” my guess is that he would say “no.” I believe he just enjoys shooting and excelling to the point that he would never say it was “hard.” On the other side of the spectrum, Jesse; I have a difficult time thinking he would say it is “hard” either. Again, it’s just a perception, I could be wrong but I just don’t see those who are truly “at the top” ever having the attitude that it’s “hard.” Difference of opinion. I am however going to ask around and see if I'm right or wrong.

Good shooting to both of you.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, I'm of the opinion that just because it's enjoyable doesn't negate what it really is. If it was easy everybody and their brother would be practicing 4 hours and more per day and practicing for a purpose, not just flinging arrows. Attitude, desire has to be there.


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## Blue X

Just picking on you a little lazerus. I thought youd think it was funny. 

Blue X


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## Lazarus

It's all good Blue X. Got a little tense around here for awhile. Guess I better rent a sense of humor.


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## dua lam pa

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee


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## SonnyThomas

This stabilizer stuff.... Went from 1 to 2 ounces on the end of the 30" and added 1 ounce to both sides of the back Bernie thing (I'll look it up). Seemed to hang in there. 3 additional ounces ain't all that much when spread out. I don't know....Seems if I don't force anything, just look straight through to the target, let the pin wander into the picture and the arrow goes there...

Also, dumb me tried that Shane grip stuff again today. 3" inches left ain't good. And you get messed up...Mowed some grass, came back and still had some stupid stuff going on. Just plain said....Can't say that here...Anyway, just pulled up and shot and got decent results. Went back to 35 with same altitude of "my way." Using 3D centers; 12, 10 (just above center X ring), 14, 12 and 14....Me headed for some ice tea....Gots to go raid the club's used center pile. Mine R shot.

Looking over some stab goodies. Think I'll fine something to jack up the bow weight about a pound, maybe more....Haven't got around to it yet, but aiming to move the arrow rest back as far as the thing will move - should just be a hair over 2" from launch arm up to deepest of grip....


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## Joe Schnur

You guys are great thanks dua for pointing out what was already here. Learning a lot.thank you all for the great thread .


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## Reverend

I'm wondering what you guys do about stab noise? My Carbon Blades have a "tuning fork" hum at the shot. I've been reluctant using the rubber dampeners... for no particular reason, but I'm thinking about putting them on. What thinketh ye? Dampener or no dampener?


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## Rick!

My experience is that dampers on long stabs make for excessive settle time after reaching full draw. All my fuse dampers are in the bottom of my bow case. I also use only ES fuses or other stiff stabs to avoid settle time issues.


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## Joe Schnur

Throw some electrical tape around the stab at one point it will tune the resonant frequency and get rid of the resonance.


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## Reverend

Rick! said:


> My experience is that dampers on long stabs make for excessive settle time after reaching full draw. All my fuse dampers are in the bottom of my bow case. I also use only ES fuses or other stiff stabs to avoid settle time issues.


Ok I see two types of dampeners: those that fit between the stab and the end weights, and those that fit on the end of the weights. 
Do both styles affect you settle time?


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## EPLC

I can't imagine that "those that fit on the end of the weights" would cause any issues. Dampeners that go between the stabilizer and the weights are the issue as they place a movable/flexible object between the two...


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## SonnyThomas

??? Stab not stiff enough? Does the hum bother the person next to you on the shooting line? Keep it humming  

And back to.... Are things improving?


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## Reverend

SonnyThomas said:


> ??? Stab not stiff enough? Does the hum bother the person next to you on the shooting line? Keep it humming
> 
> And back to.... Are things improving?


Haha. Not the people next to me... ME! 
Well with the many rabbit trails that this thread has gone down, the good news is that I decided to get myself a target rig, rather than an all-purpose rig. Right now I'm working on getting all the pieces put together. Honestly with hunting season upon me, I haven't shot much of the new rig. I'm kinda easing into it, but am optimistic that it'll help me get to my goals in a couple of months. 

How bout you?


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## SonnyThomas

Had a few minutes to play today. Installed peep in my MX2 and weird, it stayed straight :mg:
30" stabilizer. 10 degree quick disconnect, making for 31 stabilizer length and 4 ounces on the end. Two 12 back bars, 13" if counting quick disconnects. with 3 ounces on each. Sure Loc 400 sight frame. Bubble came right to level at full draw and tried several times, but will recheck 2nd and 3rd axis. Time and then rain cut all short...
Bow just sort of sits in the hand and a bit tipping forward which I like.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, Reverend, got some time to play again. The crazies came today. Got the 2nd and 3rd axis set. Dropped this 1/4" yellow tab catcher (long story) and I couldn't find that little #@$$T%* on the red floor no where. Check this, look for the #$%%* thing and check that and....I was ticked off..big,big time. Tried to shoot. I'd been better off to have thrown my arrow. And this guy comes. Me; "Sorry, the shop is closed." Of all the things he has to blow off at the mouth....GRAHHHH! I got him on the wall; "You can walk out or be carried out."
Got back to check this and that...Checked timing have to death. Try to shoot and ain't nothing working. Thoughts of the Big Guy up there hating me....Yes sir, the crazies had me. Threw everything in the car and headed for Tim's place. "Try this bow before I blow up." No stabs, no sights. "You're just a bit off." Me; "Well, then shoot me. Put me out of my misery."
He makes a couple adjustments only because he forgot to mark the arrow rest and he forgot to use his glasses. Makes a tinker tap adjustment and says try it. My first shot, bullet hole. Him; "So that guy really [blank] you off?" Me; "No, not really. I only wanted to shoot him 6 or 7 times." 

Home. Throw the stabs on the bow (see prior reply), Sure Loc. I've a little tilt to the right. Fidget a bit and the bubble centers and I had to fidget a bit for all the shots... First shot, dead center high in the bull's eye. I guessed and I R stunned, but happy. 2nd shot, top of X ring, 3rd, 4th and 5th are in. Afraid to show picture of my ragged, ripped targets cause you guys would pick on me....
So I get a new target out. Of course, it's got to rain - see arrow.

New target, 6th shot. Took pic and lightening hit. Scrambled to get everything picked up and put away. My stabilizer shipping box and tubes, drenched. My poor new bow, drenched. Me, drenched. Wife yells; "It's raining!" Not to worry, I'm fine. She didn't hear me...


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## Reverend

Crazy is right!!!
What adjustment did he make? Arrow rest only?
That is some good shooting! The rain was a godsend. It helped you end on a high-note. Hehe.

My new bow is still sitting there. Waiting on a few stab weights and a sight. 
Going from a thumb trigger to a hinge, and from a 75% let-off cam to a 65% LO has me on a very slow learning curve... Not to mention we're in the middle of our hunting season down here. Temps supposed to drop into the 80s this weekend... So it should make the hunting a little more bearable.  
This is the primary reason my target rig is still just sitting there.

Speaking of hunting, how's your season going?


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## SonnyThomas

Just the arrow rest. It was just that my nerves were jangled all up. I mean, that little 1/4" bright yellow tab catcher...It popped off, I heard it hit and the little sucker is hiding from me...Thought about firing up the shop vac and suck it up... And that guy....What is so hard to understand that the archery shop is closed? Bows, arrows, fixed pin sights gone. 1 set of fixed broadheads on the wall and some expensive Mossy Oak light weight gloves nobody wants. 

Hunting season is going great so far. Yep, found my hunting bow a few minutes ago. $5 says it just needs me tuned up  I R tired of hunting when it's hot....
And it's still raining....


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