# Roast my Form!



## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Looking to get my form officially roasted. I've already scheduled a coaching lesson next week since my shots are super inconsistent and looking at these photos, my form incredibly bad!
SHOW ME THE LINES N&B!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Looking to get my form officially roasted. I've already scheduled a coaching lesson next week since my shots are super inconsistent and looking at these photos, my form incredibly bad!
> SHOW ME THE LINES N&B!
> 
> View attachment 7162523
> ...


Shoot three fletched arrows and at LEAST one bareshaft, all aimed at the same bullseye.
If you are worried about busting nocks or robin hoods, then, shoot at a sheet of cardboard. Label each hole "fletched" or "bareshaft". After each shot, pull out the arrow and fire next arrow.


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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

DL maybe 1/4" long. The slight leanback isn't that bad (I shoot with a slight lean myself as completely vertical causes me serious back pain). You look just slightly overdrawn and I would say the maximum is 1/2". Your form looks a lot like my brothers and he is an absolute beast. You may be able to drop a half inch in the mod and tie a slightly longer D Loop. 

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Looking to get my form officially roasted. I've already scheduled a coaching lesson next week since my shots are super inconsistent and looking at these photos, my form incredibly bad!
> SHOW ME THE LINES N&B!
> 
> View attachment 7162523
> ...


1) arrow is pointing downhill, so you SHOULd be leaning forwards, yet you lean backwards.
2) would prefer to see release hand rotated to 45 degrees, so you can use bottom of jawbone as a vertical control for anchor
3) since you are inconsistent, then, we start all the way back to basics, meaning maintain T-FORM. That means backbone is ALWAYS 90 degrees to the arrow.
4) T-FORM also means your neck bones are 90 degrees to the arrow. Your head is actually leaning BACKWARDS, while arrow is pointing downhill.
5) T-FORM also means collar bones are kept parallel to the arrow. So, with arrow pointing downhill, your RIGHT shoulder should be higher, left shoulder lower for parallel 2 arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

T- Form for the downhill pointing arrow.
You have been Roasted.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Drop draw length shorter, until string crosses corner of MOUTH...forget about string touching nose.



But, what about my nose! Can't shoot without string touching nose. Well, actually you can. You will shoot much tighter groups with string crossing corner of mouth.
But, I'll feel "scrunched". Nope. LIFT the right elbow UP, and the right arm will swing UP and swing around the shoulder CLOSER to the riser, and the HIGHER right elbow will
take up the shorter draw length. Shorten draw length about the length of your nock, so string crosses corner of mouth. You get better leverage through your back,
with the shorter draw length, with the slightly HIGHER right elbow.


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!



Robspartacus said:


> DL maybe 1/4" long. The slight leanback isn't that bad (I shoot with a slight lean myself as completely vertical causes me serious back pain). You look just slightly overdrawn and I would say the maximum is 1/2". Your form looks a lot like my brothers and he is an absolute beast. You may be able to drop a half inch in the mod and tie a slightly longer D Loop.


Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were. 



nuts&bolts said:


> Shoot three fletched arrows and at LEAST one *bareshaft*, all aimed at the same bullseye.


Bareshaft arrow is an arrow with everything except the fletchings correct? I would need to go and pick one or two up if that is the case.



nuts&bolts said:


> Drop draw length shorter, until string crosses corner of MOUTH...forget about string touching nose.


Looks like the length of the nock is 5/8". What would be the easier method in decreasing my DL? Just adjusting the cams (I have Evolve cams), 1/2" shorter? Keep in mind the only tools I have currently is just a hex key wrench. 



nuts&bolts said:


> T- Form for the downhill pointing arrow.


When leaning forward, should I be pivoting at the hips? Or going full out Michael Jackson lean using my legs?



nuts&bolts said:


> LIFT the right elbow UP, and the right arm will swing UP and swing around the shoulder CLOSER to the riser, and the HIGHER right elbow will
> take up the shorter draw length.


Lifting my elbow up, am I lifting it straight up vertically or at a slight angle? 

So brief summary of things I need to do:
1) Pick up some bare shaft arrows
2) Adjust release hand to 45° to have a better anchor point
3) Shorten draw length by... 5/8" by adjusting cam... and maybe dloop?
4) Adjust lean forward by pivoting at the hips to keep T position 90° from arrow
5) Raise right elbow higher 

Other questions:
-Does my peep height look like it's in the right place?
-Is there a way to test an arrows integrity? I know I've shot and killed my round pen at least once as well as the backstop a few times...
-Bow grip looks okay?
-Release grip?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


Keep the right elbow in line behind the arrow, so a vertical plane of rotation. Swing the right arm around your shoulder joint.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


You take your existing fletched arrow and strip off the vanes, remove the base of the vane, scrape off the glue residue and you CONVERT an existing arrow into a bareshaft.
The purpose of a bareshaft is an arrow tube, with the point, with the nock and no steering correction. When you fire the arrow with vanes completely scraped off, the bareshaft shows all the flaws in the shot execution, and shows all the flaws in the bow tuning.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


Drop the draw length 1/2-inch shorter for starters, using your cam. Then, you can fine tune anchor in the shorter direction, with a shorter d-loop. Tune the length of d-loop (shorter anchor) based on shooting results. Obviously, ultimate goal is tighter groups.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


When you rotate the release hand 45 degrees, bottom of jaw becomes an absolute repeatable reference for height of release hand, cuz the height of the jawbone never changes.







That guy looks familiar. He should. John Dudley. Lots of videos. So, you separate the middle finger and pointer finger to form a "V".
This "V" rides the edge of your jawbone, and your jaw bone controls height of your release hand. No thinking required.





When you rotate the release hand knuckles to 45 degrees, pointer finger rides UNDER the jaw bone. Instant super consistent release hand height.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


bow Grip looks okay? No. Not by a long shot. Make bow hand more like this.



Yes, you are a newby. So, to make it DEAD simple, to remove any thinking...make a aluminum foil ball, squeeze nice and firm, into a 2-inch diameter HARD ball.



Hold the ball with three fingers, pinky finger, 4th finger and middle finger.



MUST use some rope or paracord to make a wrist sling, a loop that you feed the bow hand through, so you absolutely cannot drop the bow.



So, with the 2-inch ball in your bow hand, the ball acts as a spacer, so it is brain dead simple, to rotate the bow hand knuckles to 45 degrees. No thinking, just use the ball. It will look like this.



But the ball is SOOOO BIG, none of my fingertips touch the riser. Exactly.
BUT, the ball is SOOOOOO BIG, I cannot "HOLD" my bow. Exactly.
So, how do I steer my riser? You only steer the riser with the side of your thumb.

But, I cannot HOLD my bow. You don't want to hold your bow. But, what if I drop my bow out of my fingers, which are no longer TOUCHING the riser??????
That's why you tie a loop (wrist sling) and feed your bow hand THROUGH the loop.

BUT, this FEELS sooooo weird!!! Your groups will shrink sideways, with this training tool.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


What am I supposed to do with my elbow? Like this.



But, he is using that wrist strap release. K. Like this.



Why do I have to swing my elbow up like that? You are connected to the bow system in only 2 locations...the d-loop, and the grip. So, you want your RIGHT arm to pull in a straight line, pointed at the bottom of your BOW hand. When the elbow (right elbow) is too low, you create a torque and put MORE pressure at the top of the grip. To get EVENLY distributed pressure across the entire grip, LIFT up your elbow, swing elbow in a vertical plane of rotation, so tip of elbow is at the same height as top of ear.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Geometry lines! I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> Thanks! That's good to know that my form looks like someone that knows how to shoot. I was actually getting pretty frustrated with how inconsistent my shots were.
> ...


Arrow integrity. Each time you pull an arrow out of a target, you GENTLY bend the arrow and flex the arrow SLIGHTLY, and look for fractures, and LISTEN for any crackling noises. The slight bending of the arrow should be absolutely quiet. If you hear any noise, while GENTLY flexing the arrow, that arrow is toast.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

How do I check peep height?

Step 1. Drop draw length 1/2-inch shorter
Step 2. Load arrow and stand in front of a target
Step 3. Close your eyes
Step 4. Lift bow hand with eyes closed and come to full draw, with release hand pointer finger gliding UNDER jawbone
Step 5. Confirm release hand is 45 degrees (not vertical) while eyes are closed
Step 6. While at full draw, with eyes closed, FEEL that your shoulders are level, and bow arm is level
Step 7. Open your eyes
Step 8. Confirm that you can see through your peep.
Step 2. Rotate release hand knuckles to 45 degrees while at full draw.


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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

This is an example of 45 degree pulling hand. The pic with the open fingers are to give you the feel. Think scissors gonna cut down the jaw line. The other is to give you a reference of location with an invisible release in hand. 

Make sure you are pulling straight back. Elbow is pointing inline with arrow and rest. 

The last pic is exaggerated as how I pull. By using your back to pull through the shot allow your hand to open. It's a balance. It's not all hands. Pull but slowly allow your fingers to extend. BANG! Surprise release.









Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

nuts&bolts said:


> Shoot three fletched arrows and at LEAST one bareshaft, all aimed at the same bullseye.
> If you are worried about busting nocks or robin hoods, then, shoot at a sheet of cardboard. Label each hole "fletched" or "bareshaft". After each shot, pull out the arrow and fire next arrow.


Have a day off so I can get to this today, how far should I be from the target when doing bareshaft?
edit: looks like 4-6 feet at shoulder height?


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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

etrips said:


> Have a day off so I can get to this today, how far should I be from the target when doing bareshaft?
> edit: looks like 4-6 feet at shoulder height?


Start at 5 yards. Then 10. Then 15. Then 20. You want perfect bareshaft flight at each. Start close, make adjustments till perfect, then move back. 

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

etrips said:


> Have a day off so I can get to this today, how far should I be from the target when doing bareshaft?
> edit: looks like 4-6 feet at shoulder height?


4-6 feet is WAY too close, WAY too easy. Not a real test of form consistency, not a real test of how well the thickness of the wooden shim on your grip, is affecting your shot. Dial in the thickness of the wooden shim, to change your release forearm alignment, you can add more layers of painters tape, to really dial in the reduction in your brace height. GOAL is to get all the fletched arrow holes and the bareshaft hole, all touching.

Try 10 yards. I did this at 10 yards...30'.



If you look at the bottom holes, I did that at 5 yards...25'.


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Well... Lowered my DL down to 29" from 29.5", raised my elbow, rotated my release hand to 45. Did some practice shots ...


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Then... everything went down the toilet.


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Will get some new form pictures when I get a second set of hands available.


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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

You are closer than you think. That's not horrible. The hard kick with good POI may be your bag exaggerating the tail. 

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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

The reason you are getting the worse tear now is because the bow was tuned to an improper draw length. When you shorted it your bare shaft SHOULD go left (right tear). If you are comfortable with the new DL it is time to adjust the rest, shim cam, or yoke tune. 

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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

Honestly, if it is comfortable, you could extend your D Loop maybe an 1/8". That would clean that up but may not fit your need. 

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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Robspartacus said:


> You are closer than you think. That's not horrible. The hard kick with good POI may be your bag exaggerating the tail.
> Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


The series of shots are from 5, 10, and 15 yards.



Robspartacus said:


> The reason you are getting the worse tear now is because the bow was tuned to an improper draw length. When you shorted it your bare shaft SHOULD go left (right tear). If you are comfortable with the new DL it is time to adjust the rest, shim cam, or yoke tune.
> Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


So... on my beginner bow that the shop sold me, they had me at a 29.5" DL. Got another bow (the one I'm currently using now) and they set it up at 29" and did all the tuning and sent me on my way. I didn't realize it until I got home and when I was looking at all the nooks and crannies on the bow that it was set at 29". Went back to the shop a day or two later and asked them to set it to 29.5", I do not remember if they made any other adjustments when putting it back to 29.5". So if they didn't make any adjustments, it should technically be "tuned" since I put it back to 29" since that's where it was when it was setup.


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

nuts&bolts said:


> bow Grip looks okay? No. Not by a long shot. Make bow hand more like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got my ball in today, so I'll be giving that a go from now on. Assuming I should just be having a light grip on it?








Also I bought my drop away rest used. The blade looks used, though I don't know if this usage would have an impact on the arrows?


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## etrips (Nov 21, 2019)

Only had time to take some quick form pictures before heading out to work. Looks like DL should be shorter by a small amount? Definitely still need to work on my grip and elbow too. Also thank you two for all your help. It is greatly appreciated.


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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

etrips said:


> Only had time to take some quick form pictures before heading out to work. Looks like DL should be shorter by a small amount? Definitely still need to work on my grip and elbow too. Also thank you two for all your help. It is greatly appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 7165561
> 
> ...


That form pic is loads better. That very minor lean back is how I shoot. It ain't "perfect" but much better. You are very close. I personally have an almost identical form to your pic with the exception that my release hand is just a tad more tilted. 

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


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## ElMuercielago (May 26, 2020)

Off topic I know but that space looks absolutely amazing to shoot in


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