# Making Progress



## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

I can now shoot almost daily and can draw my PSE with reasonably decent form. The aches and pains and snapping, knocking, thumping in the hardware in the right shoulder seem to finally be abating, allowing me to shoot until I'm tired. That's not 60 shafts yet, but the pains and old injuries seem to be at bay. A major hurdle cleared there.

I've put down my hinges due to an anticipation issue and have picked up my pull-through (Evo +) again. That one you *do* fire with pure "back tension" with no long, boring argument in a thread on AT, LOL, and it gives a pure surprise shot. The improvement everywhere has been outstanding so far, so will try it at 20 yards on the line at the shop on the weekend. I can pinwheel a spot the size of a quarter inside my apt. with it and on purpose. Never been able to do that with a hinge, even before this target panic-like thing crept into my release. I may leave my hinges in the case if I can keep shooting like this with a pull-through LOL.

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

EPLC said:


> The confidence thread got me thinking: Then after rethinking this a couple of times, progress does seem like a worthy thread. In order to build confidence, one must see progress. In spite of all the jousting going on here over the past couple months, I'm actually making some progress myself. My hold right now is very good and I continue to work on my firing engine to perfection. Here are some of the changes I've made that have helped. What are yours?
> 
> There have been physical, mental and equipment changes and my hold is currently better than it has been in quite a while.
> 
> ...


Good stuff EPLC.

And remember.......there's pulling, and there's letting go. If you're pulling, you ain't letting go. And if you're letting go, you ain't pulling. :wink: :thumbs_up


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Oh........and I notice you mentioned the thumb and index finger in your point about "relaxing" the release hand. Take this for what it's worth. If you can get your pinky into the act (consciously let it go limp) that helps get that hand flattened out and relaxed too. .02


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know EPLC, I have read your more personal posts where you talk about what you are doing and for the first time in a long time this one makes me think you are on your way to really seeing some shooting that you will be proud of and enjoy. Good luck.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

If you aren't keeping a WRITTEN journal of your activities, good and bad, and taking photos OR keeping your targets...then you are missing the boat big time!
How can you know for sure if you are making progress or not if you don't have REAL data to prove it and you are trusting your memory?
How do you know for positive if you make a change and don't have a baseline of comparison to PROVE that the change indeed is or isn't working? If you don't have things written down as to where you started and you make a change only to find out it "isn't working" (from PROOF of at least 5 full rounds of scoring, all documented), then how do you put things back to where they were? Guess? That is why so many shooters chase their tails all the time, and likely miss the "sweet spots" countless times because of it.
Gotta keep a journal, folks. Without "data" you are chasing your tail for no good reason.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I've been making some strides as well,
On my 2nd "new" firing engine. While the first new one was very good, this one works for me and my bow better....especially now that I'm back on the limb stops (more on that later)
Changed my stab set-up, and am now able to see very small changes especially to the side bar.
Accidentally changed my DL, holding weight and wall. A friend wanted to shoot my bow. A long time hybrid cam shooter he wanted to see what my Binary style cams were like...specifically the back wall. I let him shoot, and he was impressed with the wall, so I said, "here check it out NOW, you were only using the cable stops, I moved the cable stops back to match the limb stops" This adding a little to the DL, a lot to the wall, and lowering holding weight a bit. He shot it and was impressed with the solid wall. Now I get them bow back and everyone is just getting back from pulling their arrows....I don't want to miss another round, so I just decide to shoot it without moving the cable stops back. Suddenly I notice my float is nearly cut in half! This is encouraging on it's own, but I know that I can keep this exact DL and just change mods to get my holding weight back up!!! I'm only holding like 11lbs right now!!! and it's STILL more steady than before!
I've also worked on my grip a LOT. I have freakishly huge hands (insert your jokes here___________) and always had trouble shooting with a low grip. I tried the Sugru mod, didn't like it, tried moving curling fingers in, and it improved, now I have somewhat gone back and am using my old grip, but just a bit lower. 
All this changing of course lowered my score in the short term. I have been at a 300 45x for some time....but I could never practice (LONG story). Now I am able to shoot at least once a week (more when it's warmer out) and my scores are coming back.
Last time out, I threw one in the lake, but still hit 50x (sight needed a lot of adjustment...8-10 clicks later it was all rounds of 4 and 5x).
So I'm happy my X count is up, I KNOW my 300s will be the norm, and I can see a LOT of room for easy gains!
LOVING archery again!


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

^^^ what field14 said, X 1,000,000!

There's a lot more to it that field14 even mentioned. But fodder for another discussion.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I have an app that I can make notes in, and all my "targets" are stored on it as well (PM me for the name of the app). It also does group analysis on targets and arrows, and even lets you compare different "quivers" of arrows and different bows you have set up.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For EPLC keeping a journal would be ok if he just recorded the things that relate to executing a good shot, he has already spend tons of time recording scores and collected data and all of that is all based on accuracy and lead him down a dead end road. Right now he is letting go of many of those issues and he is close to really learning how to execute good if not perfect shot executions and when he gets there his shooting will get way better. The worst thing he can do right now is start collecting data and shooting scoring rounds.

I have been keeping a postie note in my release pouch and every time I have a great little phrase or thing I have learned that improves my shooting I write it down so that I don't forget. Everything I do is based on execution of that perfect feeling shot every time though.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> For EPLC keeping a journal would be ok _if he just recorded the things that relate to executing a good shot,_ he has already spend tons of time recording scores and collected data and all of that is all based on accuracy and lead him down a dead end road. Right now he is letting go of many of those issues and he is close to really learning how to execute good if not perfect shot executions and when he gets there his shooting will get way better. The worst thing he can do right now is start collecting data and shooting scoring rounds.
> 
> I have been keeping a postie note in my release pouch and every time I have a great little phrase or thing I have learned that improves my shooting I write it down so that I don't forget. Everything I do is based on execution of that perfect feeling shot every time though.


The key to a good journal is in recording anything and everything that is going on. If you feel like crap that day and don't shoot well, you need to document it. If you really feel great, and shoot well, document it. Pay careful attention to detail...and it won't lead you down a dead end road.
What WILL lead you down a dead end road is only recording the good stuff, not recording anything, or only recording the bad stuff. If you exercised really hard before shooting, that is going to have an impact. If somebody torques you off or upsets you, that WILL have an impact...and if you think it won't and you can just schuck it off...think again.

I agree that NOT every single round you shoot for practice should be a scoring round, but even when not scoring, you need to document things and keep your journal.
The other part is: PRACTICE WITH A WRITTEN PLAN...and that plan isn't "Today I'm going to shoot 100 arrows." That will start you on the path of quantity over QUALITY. Avoid the use of negatives. Things like "I'm not pulling hard enough" suconsciously discourage you. Better to write, "Today, I'm going to work on making sure I complete and HOLD my "transfer" and let down if it appears to be incorrect." The words "I can't" are not part of the vocabulary.
You can even chart your progress, and trust me in that, making a GRAPH works. Especially if you have set a WRITTEN GOAL (a goal that is measurable AND achieveable), and have that goal as a red line across your graph of results. You can quantify a lot of things if you are resourceful.
Seeing results in just numbers isn't as tell-tale as a graph that you can see your ups and downs upon!

Yes, it takes some work...but graphing results and documenting things is FUN, it is worth the effort, and it will take the drudgery out of your practice sessions.
"Today's goal is to try to shoot 30 perfect shots." Then RECORD your "perfect shots." If you don't make goal, then fine, but document it. If you only get 20 this time, then you set the goal for the next time to 22 or 25. But make them achievable and measurable!

Your memory is NOT going to get the job done, period.
By the way, my Master's Thesis was "Improving Motivation Through Goal Setting." Thus, I have a pretty good handle of how easily and effective "goal setting" and tracking can be. It doesn't have to be in a classroom situation...but with your archery...the "shooting range and your activity" IS basically YOUR "classroom." 
IF you don't measure and document...you are missing the boat.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm a simple guy. I don't want anything on my mind that takes away from the here and now while I'm shooting. For me, measuring every little detail of success and failure is a burden I don't care to have. I keep a mental record of how well I'm doing regarding my short term goals and that's it. Analyzing every detail of every target just sounds like a great way to frustrate the hell out of you. This is one of the few circumstances where I agree with the simple philosophy of "Just put it in the middle." That is all I want to think about. 

I know that is just a personality thing. Some people like to have every detail accounted for, and that's fine. I certainly wouldn't suggest that everyone needs to.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> I'm a simple guy. I don't want anything on my mind that takes away from the here and now while I'm shooting. For me, measuring every little detail of success and failure is a burden I don't care to have. I keep a mental record of how well I'm doing regarding my short term goals and that's it. Analyzing every detail of every target just sounds like a great way to frustrate the hell out of you. This is one of the few circumstances where I agree with the simple philosophy of "Just put it in the middle." That is all I want to think about.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that is just a personality thing. Some people like to have every detail accounted for, and that's fine. I certainly wouldn't suggest that everyone needs to.


That is a valid point, BUT...practicing with a WRITTEN plan and goal for each practice session is a huge boost. If you go to practice with a "list" of several things, that is more than your "memory" can handle. Pick ONE specific thing to work on with THAT practice session and that is all. Working on a host of things all at once will end up with you not knowing for sure which ONE (or two) worked and which ones were sugar coating.
ONE arrow at a time philosophy taken the step to ONE thing to work on at a time at each practice session with a WRITTEN plan and a goal.
Don't get caught up on working on several things all at once.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

field14 said:


> That is a valid point, BUT...practicing with a WRITTEN plan and goal for each practice session is a huge boost. If you go to practice with a "list" of several things, that is more than your "memory" can handle. Pick ONE specific thing to work on with THAT practice session and that is all. Working on a host of things all at once will end up with you not knowing for sure which ONE (or two) worked and which ones were sugar coating.
> ONE arrow at a time philosophy taken the step to ONE thing to work on at a time at each practice session with a WRITTEN plan and a goal.
> Don't get caught up on working on several things all at once.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)



I'm not disagreeing with the concept of logging your performance. Like I've said, to each his own. 

What I am looking at is where we are on the spectrum of beginner vs advanced. I am assuming at the more advanced end, you are not questioning your misses. You know exactly why a miss happened and it's based in two principles. 

1. Was the dot in the center? If no, then why not. Discipline? Need adjustment? If yes, then the problem was on the back end. 

2. Did the release process cause the miss? If yes, then why? Did I force it? Did it cause movement up front?

How many times the error was made is of little importance since once is too many. Back to the one shot at a time concept. 

Also in line with small successes. I've found that winning the battle up front is the most important. You can get away with a little error on the back end if the front is good. You can't clean up a bad hold with a perfect release. So many people put way too much focus on the back end in my opinion, when they still haven't got the front end figured out.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> So many people put way too much focus on the back end in my opinion, when they still haven't got the front end figured out.


Boy, there's a mouthful right there! I know it was just an example so I won't take this off track. But to be really candid, speaking of the back end, there's a whole bunch of people that think they are *firing* using "back tension," but reality is, they probably aren't. 

I'm on field14's bandwagon about the journal cbrunson. And I'll go on record as saying I don't always keep one, I only keep one when I'm planning to win. :teeth: :teeth: :teeth:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lol. All part of what makes us different. We both also know that the strengths of our opinions don't always equal the lengths of our success.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> You can't clean up a bad hold with a perfect release. So many people put way too much focus on the back end in my opinion, when they still haven't got the front end figured out.


Could not have said it better. All this discourse over the past several days over the use of the term "back tension" has had me chuckling at times and shaking my head at others....In truth, I'd venture to say that the majority of the errors on target are caused by some breakdown of the front end.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

First, I really enjoy the input, but just in case anyone hasn't noticed, I kind of make my own decisions based on all of the information collected, try things out and proceed. As far as note taking goes it's never been my style. I have a very good memory, almost photographic for many things so I'm kind of spoiled in that regard. I do find these postings a good reference though and look back continually. 

That said; There was a change that I made that I didn't post and that was I changed releases from my old trusty Sweet Spot to a no safety BT Gold 3 finger. I'm currently using the click. I did mention the training with 1 arrow ends but didn't go into any detail. On a 3 spot I'm shooting 10, 1 arrow ends at one spot and on a five spot 12, 1 arrow ends. My goal is to clean the 10 or 12 ends. While this isn't actually scoring it does add an element of pressure to the practice. Even though it's only a short round I do feel the pressure and I seem to be handling it well. As my confidence grows I plan to increase the number of arrows or ends, but I'm in no hurry to move on. I've been doing it this way for a couple of weeks or more and I feel it's really helping on all counts. This morning, after warming up for about 10 minutes, I shot my 10 ends at a Vegas 3 spot and shot a 99 with 8X's.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Always that one arrow LOL!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> Always that one arrow LOL!


I know, I know... another thing that is helping is I'm healing my bad holes with a tool that I made up. I'm finding this is a really big help as my eye tends to go for those bad holes.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> First, I really enjoy the input, but just in case anyone hasn't noticed, I kind of make my own decisions based on all of the information collected, try things out and proceed. As far as note taking goes it's never been my style. I have a very good memory, almost photographic for many things so I'm kind of spoiled in that regard. I do find these postings a good reference though and look back continually.
> 
> That said; There was a change that I made that I didn't post and that was I changed releases from my old trusty Sweet Spot to a no safety BT Gold 3 finger. I'm currently using the click. I did mention the training with 1 arrow ends but didn't go into any detail. On a 3 spot I'm shooting 10, 1 arrow ends at one spot and on a five spot 12, 1 arrow ends. My goal is to clean the 10 or 12 ends. While this isn't actually scoring it does add an element of pressure to the practice. Even though it's only a short round I do feel the pressure and I seem to be handling it well. As my confidence grows I plan to increase the number of arrows or ends, but I'm in no hurry to move on. I've been doing it this way for a couple of weeks or more and I feel it's really helping on all counts. This morning, after warming up for about 10 minutes, I shot my 10 ends at a Vegas 3 spot and shot a 99 with 8X's.


Another thing on my personal list of accomplishments (not recorded anywhere) has been something you can see on your single spot. Even with the occasional bad shot, (for whatever reason) the good ones are really good. That means the shot process is working. That means that you are seeing what a good sight picture is and executing the shot very well. Adding in the other elements is just piece work from here on out.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> Another thing on my personal list of accomplishments (not recorded anywhere) has been something you can see on your single spot. Even with the occasional bad shot, (for whatever reason) the good ones are really good. That means the shot process is working. That means that you are seeing what a good sight picture is and executing the shot very well. Adding in the other elements is just piece work from here on out.


Thanks, I think the biggest thing that has happened is I am no longer guessing about whether or not what I did yesterday will be with me today. I now have a shot process that I am confident in, that I can repeat because I understand it. This is probably the first time I've been able to do this. I believe the rest of the refinement is simply a practice situation. Needless to say I'm very pleased with the progress I'm making due to the changes I've made and work I'm putting into my development.

I'm also pleased that my body is accepting this new process w/o pain... No shoulder pain, no rhomboid pain... no pain 

Another thing that is really aiding my progress is that I'm actually studying my float, trying to understand it and making improvements in it. When I think about it, this may be the most important thing I'm doing. I must admit I've never really tried to improve my float other than making equipment changes. Mostly my effort was put into accepting my float and trying not to let it impact my shot. I've always felt that if my float was better this would be a lot easier to execute a good shot.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

field14 said:


> The key to a good journal is in recording anything and everything that is going on. If you feel like crap that day and don't shoot well, you need to document it. If you really feel great, and shoot well, document it. Pay careful attention to detail...and it won't lead you down a dead end road.
> What WILL lead you down a dead end road is only recording the good stuff, not recording anything, or only recording the bad stuff. If you exercised really hard before shooting, that is going to have an impact. If somebody torques you off or upsets you, that WILL have an impact...and if you think it won't and you can just schuck it off...think again.
> 
> I agree that NOT every single round you shoot for practice should be a scoring round, but even when not scoring, you need to document things and keep your journal.
> ...


Good stuff here. Not just for archery either.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you are experiencing that "wandering focus" of looking at all the holes on your target, you may want to experiment with peep size and focal distance of your sight, to produce a sight picture that is just a bit on the fuzzy side, instead of crystal clear and sharply defined. 
it tends to ease that desire to wander around on the target face and still gives a sharp enough picture that brings focus to the center of the bull.
believe it or not, that is the reason target sight extensions are as long as they are and have multiple indexes for locking them in place and the reason there are so many different peep sizes.
between peep size and focal distance, you can tailor the sight picture to be exactly what you need, to put your aiming process at ease. the reason you wander around, is because your aimimg process is not satisfied with what it sees, so it is distracted from it's primary job, of focusing on the middle of the bulls eye. when it can't make out all the holes that are "not in the right spot", so to speak, it has a better potential to ignore them.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I've done a lot of work on my sight picture lately and it's feeling very comfortable. It's natural for your eyes to be drawn to existing holes because they simply standout more. As a result I "want" to see the good centered holes for just that reason. The darker that good hole gets the more your arrows are drawn to it. Healing the bad holes as I go has been working out nicely as suggested by N7709K a while back.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> Healing the bad holes as I go has been working out nicely as suggested by N7709K a while back.


This is true and is a great practice tool, but keep in mind that many competitions such as those shot under WA rulings and others like the LAS Classic do not allow the shooter to make any adjustments to the target (erasing existing holes) and require a new target to be hung.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> This is true and is a great practice tool, but keep in mind that many competitions such as those shot under WA rulings and others like the LAS Classic do not allow the shooter to make any adjustments to the target (erasing existing holes) and require a new target to be hung.


This is true, but there are also many that do allow it. That said, it really is a very useful tool when you can use it.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Any pics. of the tool used healing my bad holes in target face


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

redman said:


> Any pics. of the tool used healing my bad holes in target face


Yes, post #20 in this thread. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2404996&p=1072166101#post1072166101 Speaking of progress, I met redman at the nationals a few years ago. He had a similar tremor that I had been dealing with so I suggested he switch to lefty, which he did with success last I heard. How's that progress going for you?


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

What I learned today while journaling and tracking my 30 shot score. 

1. Head slightly angled into peep gives me the best visual clarity of the target.
2. Anchoring into the corner of my jaw provides me the most stable and repeatable anchor.
3. Once at anchor and have come to click on my hinge, relaxing my hand as my back tension increases gives the most stable//small float.
4. Keeping bow arm straight but not locked provides steadiest hold.

Today's practice with very detailed journaling and study of each shot really showed me very quickly what was working with my shot and what was not and what adjustments I needed to make.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

If any one is thinking about switching to left or right hand because of tremor or shoulder problems it can be done. I shoot my right hand martin bow left hand to try it out tremor was gone . When I made the big switch when I sold all my right hand bow so it is no going back I am shooting as good as I did right handed on my best dayand getting back every day. 

I thank you Paul[EPLC} for the info about how to make the switch he is the only one that told me it can not be fixed . PROGESS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

redman said:


> If any one is thinking about switching to left or right hand because of tremor or shoulder problems it can be done. I shoot my right hand martin bow left hand to try it out tremor was gone . When I made the big switch when I sold all my right hand bow so it is no going back I am shooting as good as I did right handed on my best dayand getting back every day.
> 
> I thank you Paul[EPLC} for the info about how to make the switch he is the only one that told me it can not be fixed . PROGESS


You are very welcome my long distance friend. Are you going to Mechanicsburg this summer?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

redman said:


> If any one is thinking about switching to left or right hand because of tremor or shoulder problems it can be done. I shoot my right hand martin bow left hand to try it out tremor was gone . When I made the big switch when I sold all my right hand bow so it is no going back I am shooting as good as I did right handed on my best dayand getting back every day.
> 
> I thank you Paul[EPLC} for the info about how to make the switch he is the only one that told me it can not be fixed . PROGESS


I have successfully made the switch from LH to RH and shot the best scores of my life once I did that, in spite of being very Left eye/hand dominant! I really got stubborn as heck over the issue and once I developed the intentional tremor after my heart surgery in 2000, I remained stubborn and tried over and over and over again to beat the left hand tremor, failing miserably.
I've switched back to LH three times over the past 15 years...and each time...the tremor in my left hand was causing me to get vertigo and nauseous because of the peep site fluttering in front of my eye like a camera flash going off and on rapidly. So, I gave it up and went RH again, and again, and again.
Like I say, I fought it for 15 years, and finally, at the suggestion of my brother, I've made a 4th switch back to LEFT handed, but this time, I've gone to a larger hole in the peep site, and for the first time in my archery career, shooting with BOTH EYES OPEN...and...voila...NO MORE VERTIGO, no more fluttering of the peep site, no more feeling sick to my stomach and off balance!

Now as far as the changeover from right to left or left to right...this topic is close to home with me, and is covered in DETAIL in "ProActive Archery", Chapters 19-22. Worth the read. Simply google "ProActive Archery" you'll find it quickly.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I got to watch Tom, field14, just a few days ago and he was looking good on the line, no shakes like I've seen of him before, and shooting dang good.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> I have successfully made the switch from LH to RH and shot the best scores of my life once I did that, in spite of being very Left eye/hand dominant! I really got stubborn as heck over the issue and once I developed the intentional tremor after my heart surgery in 2000, I remained stubborn and tried over and over and over again to beat the left hand tremor, failing miserably.
> I've switched back to LH three times over the past 15 years...and each time...the tremor in my left hand was causing me to get vertigo and nauseous because of the peep site fluttering in front of my eye like a camera flash going off and on rapidly. So, I gave it up and went RH again, and again, and again.
> Like I say, I fought it for 15 years, and finally, at the suggestion of my brother, I've made a 4th switch back to LEFT handed, but this time, I've gone to a larger hole in the peep site, and for the first time in my archery career, shooting with BOTH EYES OPEN...and...voila...NO MORE VERTIGO, no more fluttering of the peep site, no more feeling sick to my stomach and off balance!
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if your tremor is the similar to mine and redman's? His wasn't as bad as mine, but the same symptoms. I've actually run into 3 additional that had variations of it also, one was much worst than mine. That one thought I was making fun of him when I told him I made the switch and gave him a RH demo. To the best of my knowledge he goes on suffering. Very frustrating to say the least. I fought it for about 6 years before making the switch. I believe it's some kind of nerve damage, but not really uncommon in archery. I also found people to be very cruel when something like this effects you. Some actually called me "Shaky" and thought it was a real hoot. The last straw for me was when I went for a weekend of coaching with GRIV and when he saw what was going on he said I needed to see a doctor.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> I'm wondering if your tremor is the similar to mine and redman's? His wasn't as bad as mine, but the same symptoms. I've actually run into 3 additional that had variations of it also, one was much worst than mine. That one thought I was making fun of him when I told him I made the switch and gave him a RH demo. To the best of my knowledge he goes on suffering. Very frustrating to say the least. I fought it for about 6 years before making the switch. I believe it's some kind of nerve damage, but not really uncommon in archery. I also found people to be very cruel when something like this effects you. Some actually called me "Shaky" and thought it was a real hoot. The last straw for me was when I went for a weekend of coaching with GRIV and when he saw what was going on he said I needed to see a doctor.


My "intentional tremor" (obviously NOT intentional on my part, hahaha) is a direct result of a neurological response to being on a heart lung machine during my by-pass surgery, or so I have been told by my surgeon, cardiologist, and neurologist. Apparently everyone has some type of neurological response to this, and it is totally unpredictable as to what will be affected. I'm dominantly left handed, and this thing is a "pressure response" in my left hand up to the wrist. ANY pressure (pushing) on the left hand, or if I get excited or under stress, and I cannot control that tremor. There are times I cannot write my name or operate a stapler, it gets so bad. So, while shooting, it is like there is a 9.0 earthquake on the Richter scale! They have tried medications and changing my drugs around, and it only makes it worse. Like I said, I fought it for 15 years and attempted going back to left handed 3 times, two weeks ago being the 4th time.
While there is a bit of shake on the left hand, it isn't being pushed upon, so it doesn't seem to be too bad...UNLESS I go to a micro-hole in my peep site! Then that shake shows up by giving me vertigo and nausea. Having both eyes open and the larger hole in my peep has brought it to bay.
I don't know if I'll ever see 60X-300's again, since the ONLY 60X-300's, and scores above 550 on field and hunter rounds outdoors were done while I was shooting RIGHT handed. The surgery took care of keeping me alive, but it also took the big toll with regard to archery and fine twitch motor control of that left hand.
But the topic is YES! You CAN switch over from left to right or right to left...and you do NOT have to use your dominant eye to do this either!
If you are wanting to do this, then get rid of everything associated with the "other side" so that you have nothing else to fall back on. Sell it all. Get it out of reach and unavailable so you have no other options but to shoot on the "new side."
Again, google "ProActive Archery" you will find it most helpful in this, and a lot of other aspects of your archery.

The last tournament I attended and competed in was Vegas, several years ago. The heartless SOB's that were watching said, "Oh my god...look at that guy...he is shaking so bad that they should take him off the shooting line before he hurts somebody. He's unsafe." I haven't competed in a tournament event since.
The other one that bothers me is the idiots that will walk up to you and say, "Do you know your bow hand is shaking?" OR...Why do you shake so much? Are you overbowed?
It got to the point I was fed up with hearing it and had T-shirts made up: 
On the back it says: "YES!!! I KNOW MY BOW HAND IS SHAKING!!!"
On the front it says: "Let it float and SHOOT THE SHOT!!"
One guy asked me this one day and I was so angry and upset that I screamed back at him, NO! I've gone brain dead and don't know anything of what is going on...you #($&(@!)$% IDIOT! It was an hour before I settled down enough to even try to shoot. For weeks, if somebody else was on the shooting line, I would sit down and wait until they left.
This crap has gone on for 15 years...NO MORE!
I'm back to LH, be it begrudinly, but by FORCE. Either do it this time, or hang it up all together!
You did well if you managed to hear that from GRIV without blowing your top! FOR ME...I would have come unglued, since I HAVE seen too many doctors over this, including a neurologist specializing in fine twitch motor control and MS and Parkinson's disease! GOOD JOB ON YOUR PART!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

whether my problem is similarly, "tremmors", or not, I have no idea. but I do know that my float range is considerably larger than most people's....it always has been. big, to the point that people ask me how I can ever hit the center and even my then 75 year old Father in Law, who sat in the bleachers, spectating at Vegas, the couple times I shot there, several years ago, mentioned that I "wobbled" a lot more than other shooters.. I have had this "wandering float" all my life and have simply learned to trust my execution and form to produce what scores I made. 
unfortunately, it has gotten worse, since my stroke a few years ago and is the reason I don't shoot all that much any more. it's somewhat frustrating to work fairly hard to get into the 290's in spots, now. evidently, some of the small stabilizer muscles in my bow arm, haven't woken up completely after the stroke. the frustrating part of that, is that a good shot that I would have expected and taken for granted, to go the center, in earlier years, is now the pleasantly surprising shot.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> My "intentional tremor" (obviously NOT intentional on my part, hahaha) is a direct result of a neurological response to being on a heart lung machine during my by-pass surgery, or so I have been told by my surgeon, cardiologist, and neurologist. Apparently everyone has some type of neurological response to this, and it is totally unpredictable as to what will be affected. I'm dominantly left handed, and this thing is a "pressure response" in my left hand up to the wrist. ANY pressure (pushing) on the left hand, or if I get excited or under stress, and I cannot control that tremor. There are times I cannot write my name or operate a stapler, it gets so bad. So, while shooting, it is like there is a 9.0 earthquake on the Richter scale! They have tried medications and changing my drugs around, and it only makes it worse. Like I said, I fought it for 15 years and attempted going back to left handed 3 times, two weeks ago being the 4th time.
> While there is a bit of shake on the left hand, it isn't being pushed upon, so it doesn't seem to be too bad...UNLESS I go to a micro-hole in my peep site! Then that shake shows up by giving me vertigo and nausea. Having both eyes open and the larger hole in my peep has brought it to bay.
> I don't know if I'll ever see 60X-300's again, since the ONLY 60X-300's, and scores above 550 on field and hunter rounds outdoors were done while I was shooting RIGHT handed. The surgery took care of keeping me alive, but it also took the big toll with regard to archery and fine twitch motor control of that left hand.
> But the topic is YES! You CAN switch over from left to right or right to left...and you do NOT have to use your dominant eye to do this either!
> ...





ron w said:


> whether my problem is similarly, "tremmors", or not, I have no idea. but I do know that my float range is considerably larger than most people's....it always has been. big, to the point that people ask me how I can ever hit the center and even my then 75 year old Father in Law, who sat in the bleachers, spectating at Vegas, the couple times I shot there, several years ago, mentioned that I "wobbled" a lot more than other shooters.. I have had this "wandering float" all my life and have simply learned to trust my execution and form to produce what scores I made.
> unfortunately, it has gotten worse, since my stroke a few years ago and is the reason I don't shoot all that much any more. it's somewhat frustrating to work fairly hard to get into the 290's in spots, now. evidently, some of the small stabilizer muscles in my bow arm, haven't woken up completely after the stroke. the frustrating part of that, is that a good shot that I would have expected and taken for granted, to go the center, in earlier years, is now the pleasantly surprising shot.


Believe me I've heard all the insults... six or seven years worth. There was one guy that thought it was a real hoot to call me Shaky... I never could figure the humor in it myself. Each you describe tremors that sound similar to mine and like I said I've run into a few others with the same issue. If it is like mine, generally it isn't an issue with the opposite hand.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> The confidence thread got me thinking: Then after rethinking this a couple of times, progress does seem like a worthy thread. In order to build confidence, one must see progress. In spite of all the jousting going on here over the past couple months, I'm actually making some progress myself. My hold right now is very good and I continue to work on my firing engine to perfection. Here are some of the changes I've made that have helped. What are yours?
> 
> There have been physical, mental and equipment changes and my hold is currently better than it has been in quite a while.
> 
> ...


It's been only three weeks since I started this thread and the changes I've made continue to prove worthy as I continue making progress. My 1 arrow end training routine is also working out in combination with these changes. I feel like all of this has added up to a real breakthrough; one that will not only be lasting but will continue to improve as I continue working these changes. Lately I'm shooting a lot of X's and having some fun at the same time.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Eplc, I haven't got to shoot much lately but I did get in a couple days in this week and yeah i missed a few x's but I had a lot of fun shooting and just execting shots. A lot of the stuff that I focus on is about what I experience when I am shooting my strongest but today I really wasn't that strong, I felt awesome and I was executing really well but I didn't have that feel that I have when I am shooitng every day for three weeks straight.

The cool thing was that I didn't force myself to try and produce the shooting i was seeing a month and a half ago, I just enjoyed my time on the range and banged the x's.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Yesterday was a up and down day for me. I've been shooting a lot and my new firing engine is very aggressive and may require a little more rest in-between sessions. That said; I didn't really feel up to shooting yesterday as I was a little sore but went to the club anyway to do a little flogging the bale because there was a shoot last evening that I wasn't sure I wanted to shoot, but just in case... While shooting at the club I started out well, and was showing off for a couple of friends. I only shot for about a half hour but towards the end I lost my rhythm for some reason, most likely because I was tired. My last two or three shots were well out of the X but I was time constrained and left on a bad note... Those last few shots played in my head all afternoon... doubt had crept in and I was stuck with it all day. Then there was the shoot... should I go? I don't feel up to it, but I won't be shooting tomorrow. I don't want to bring the thinking that those few shots planted to the shoot. I don't want to mess up. But wait! If I don't go I'll live with this doubt all the rest of the weekend... Maybe I'll go... no maybe I won't... 

So I called and reserved a spot to shoot at 7:00. I started out with a 5X end followed by three 3X ends topped off with a "4" in the 4th end. I ended up with a 299 45X... a 300 would have been much better but it was what it was... and my 299 45X ended up tied for first place in the Adult FS class... So now I am faced with a shoot off... 

I was a little too pumped on my first arrow and it was a 5 at 6:00 about an inch over the X. The next 4 were drilled X's and I took the shoot-off with a 4X 25 to my competition's 3X 25. While not my best performance overall, I'm sure glad that I went to that shoot as the shoot-off was a real confidence builder. Here's a picture of the 3rd arrow...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Over the past week or so I've been messing around with different release configurations but have settled back into my Stan Jet Black as I find it to be very comfortable. I expended my one arrow drill all the way out to 45 arrows. 
Here's the result: After 10 arrows, 2 9's. After 15 arrows still only 2 9's. After 30, 4 9's for a 296 and after 45 arrows 6 9's for a 444.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I guessi never considered them "insults".....just comments. most of the guys I shoot with know my shot is "floaty" and they know that despite that, I do OK, because I trust it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Over the past week or so I've been messing around with different release configurations but have settled back into my Stan Jet Black as I find it to be very comfortable. I expended my one arrow drill all the way out to 45 arrows.
> Here's the result: After 10 arrows, 2 9's. After 15 arrows still only 2 9's. After 30, 4 9's for a 296 and after 45 arrows 6 9's for a 444.


Looks like you're getting there for sure...

Just rambling.... Looks like you are doing right, but perhaps some stab weight adjustment, not much, the right and left pattern. The one low shot, I don't know. I get tired and I'll give up, but for the most part I'd say you were pretty strong. The two high, when did they come? I do this.

Six points down...I'd take it all day...

As a side note; that kid in black, I've got his counter balance beat


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I gurss, I look at this, "fixing the errant holes", thing differently.....sort as, "lying to your self about the level of your shooting". 
don't get me wrong, ....I understand the benefit of fixing the holes to your focus, but the holes represent your current ability to proceed through the round, maintaining your focus. those holes are your shooting level and the indicators and reinforcement, that you have to focus a bit better and work on developing your execution. 
in my mind, fixing them is a crutch that works against the importance of focus during the shot. 
you have to develop an ability to de-sensitize your focus against distractions that cause you to focus on anything but, the center, as a default function..... whether the rules allow you to fix them or not. when you can shoot with those holes there, and they don't distract you, your shot process is just, that much stronger and your practice attitude is just that much more honest.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well, messing around with different releases recently only served to mess up my execution. Last night's league was pretty sad... That said, I have a Honey Badger Claw on it's way! But I sold a bunch of the others. I plan on settling in on one and I like the sweep and TRU Ball's have always been good to me.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Big fan of their stuff as well.
Something to be said for keeping the geometry similar between whichever heads you shoot with.
Focusing on a head with geometry that is more conducive to your personal choice of firing engine certainly sounds like a good idea to me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as I've said in the past,... the more developed your execution is, the more it becomes sensitive to small details, such as things like pivot pin geometry. there's "fussiness" in every type of release method. they all become "self-indulging", in their own way, in order to produce the best shot they can.
if it weren't so, one wouldn't be trying different releases all the time, looking for the one that works the best with their execution and there would be no reason for release manufacturers to make releases with different geometries, because as you start out learning to use a hinge, you have no idea what might work better and what might not. you only get that sensitivity as your execution develops to the point that you begin recognizing certain little idiosyncrasies about your execution, then you start looking at different releases and discover that pin placement makes a difference.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

The Honey Badger arrived Saturday and of course I "had" to shoot it at our local club Saturday competition. So... 3 shots in my basement and off I go to the shoot. I wasn't all that concerned about my performance as I knew going in that I would have to learn the release as I went. As expected I started out clueless and my score showed it, but as the round went on I found a couple of things along the way and finished the last 4 ends with 11 in the 10 or X ring. Not that it matters but my final score was 432 13X which considering I had 3 8's early on it wasn't all that bad. I felt my loop could have been a tad longer as the head is shorter than the Stan I have been shooting and have since lengthened it about .100". 

I've been shooting the HBC every day since and "learning" its likes and dislikes. I settled in on a "hold with BT, dropping the thumb while balancing out the finger pressures and then squeezing evenly with the middle and index" firing engine. I'm feeling really good about the HBC so I'm going to stick with it.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The hbc is a really nice hinge, a while back I had a guy that shoots without a thumb peg ask me some questions and I tried all my extra hinges without a thumb peg and surprisingly the hbc really was comfortable when drawing it without a thumb peg. even though the ring finger area is very tapered the middle finger and index finger areas are very nice and comfy on the fingers and displace the draw weight very nicely. 

Right now my hbc is at my buddies house and he is loving it and i may not get it back for a while.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Last night was 450 Vegas night at league. I shot 439 19X and worked for every point/X. My hold was pretty good last night but I had difficulty with the new release/firing engine as I'm still very much in conscious mode. I was pleased that I made the best shot I could on each shot, even though I was struggling with the execution. There were lots of let downs. Finding the best, most consistent hand position, seems to be where I need work. I'm doing better in practice right now than in competition but they are not that far apart.

As far as the new release and firing engine go, I'm working on it every day. I have to remember that the release was just delivered Saturday and I'm really just starting to discover and learn it. As mentioned, hand position is still in the learning phase. I've found that my ring finger needs to be involved and solidly in place early in the process. Due to my shooting releases with finger sweep, I'd gotten myself into a habit of not doing much with the ring finger (another discovery)... As I work on the ring finger, my release becomes smoother. It's not easy to break old habits though... I may have to put some time on the bale to fix this.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

New release....I'd say just getting use to it and maybe a bit of adjustment as you feel needed. 

Leagues are one thing, sanctioned events another. Are you shooting both upper and lower lines?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> New release....I'd say just getting use to it and maybe a bit of adjustment as you feel needed.
> 
> Leagues are one thing, sanctioned events another. Are you shooting both upper and lower lines?


Yes, working new stuff is always an adventure. And we move the targets from top to bottom or bottom to top after 8 ends... assuming that's what you are asking.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes.....Some leagues are sort of strung out and some shoot just the lower line. Like I had shooters come in around 9:00 in the morning and as late as past closing time. Wife did get a little up in the air when I came home around 7 and 8:00 at night...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Yes.....Some leagues are sort of strung out and some shoot just the lower line. Like I had shooters come in around 9:00 in the morning and as late as past closing time. Wife did get a little up in the air when I came home around 7 and 8:00 at night...


The league I run is handled just like a sanctioned shoot and starts at 7:00 on Wednesdays. We alternate weekly between Vegas 450 and NFAA 300 rounds and awards given for a handicap point system and scratch averages. Our local clubs and shops have formed a circuit of RIFAA shoots on Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings. They also mix 450 & 300 rounds but each competition is a standalone. There are 6 clubs/shops involved.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I shot a local competition this morning, or at least I showed up. Even though this wasn't my best performance it was a valuable learning experience. I started out quite well with a couple of 5X ends and then lost something. The loss was my release execution. I really didn't care about my score so I set out to find what I had lost and the effort paid off.

What I found was that as the game progressed my grip on the release became tighter and deeper and the tighter and deeper it got, the harder it was to get it to go off. As I started loosening my release hand the execution became easier, the float got tighter and X's seemed easy to hit. I finished out with a very strong execution, dropping only a couple of X's in the last 4 ends. This discovery was only made possible because I shot a different bow today, my Supra Max. The Supra has a little shorter D-Loop on it than my Dominator Max which forced me to get a little looser with the release. In any case I learned something important today. I still can't believe how different these releases can be! 

I feel very good about my progress even though my scores have been up and down throughout the learning curve. As I learn this new "one-shot" I can see how the perfecting of these little discoveries is really going to help my overall game. I'm at the point where I feel practice will really pay off... now that I have a much better understanding of these little details...


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you came for 
All the practice we do is of course a HUGE help, buy there's nothing like real competition to find the weakest link.
I think you just found your weakest link...and found out how to replace it with a stronger one!
Progress!!!!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, I have had that happen a lot of times and keeping a soft hand really makes a big difference.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

My Scott Backspin came back from repair (they actually gave me a new one) yesterday afternoon so I set it up last evening with the intention of shooting it today. After warming up I shot a Vegas 300 round shooting clean through the first 7 ends and then dropping 3 points over the next 3 for a 297 22X. I also finished the day with my one at a time 10 arrow drill and drilled it with 10 Vegas X's. Not too shabby for the first day with a new release.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I've been shooting pretty good lately but was humbled in my Wednesday league this week. I found my new Backspin was set too hot and I struggled all night with it. I was also tired which didn't help, too much snow removal this winter. I didn't shoot yesterday with the exception of a few arrows setting the release slower in my basement. This morning I went to the club to try the new setting and started out pretty good then fell completely apart for a period of time. So I slowed it down some more and started to drill the middle again. I'm really liking the Backspin but it's become obvious that I still am learning it. I'm still amazed how each release seems to want it's own little tweaks... 

The Backspin seems to like a hard pull into the wall with a flat hand and almost even pressure on the fingers... with the index static I apply even pressure to the middle and ring fingers. The ring finger is my weak link as it doesn't like to follow along. I may have to build up the release under that finger with tape. I may try that tomorrow.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I shot that release for a while. I actually liked the heavy pull feeling at first, but then after switching to a softer hold, I couldn't get it to fire as smoothly as others. It does like a heavy pull.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Things went much better today now that I've got the release set properly and have the process for shooting it refined somewhat. In my 1 arrow drill I shot a total of 30 arrows for a 296 equivalent. I shot 3 nines in a row on arrows 7, 8 & 9 then figured out what I was doing, corrected it and shot all but 1 clean through the rest of the 30. I was low on a lot of shots but I think it was just a matter of a low hole drawing them in. The picture is after 15 because I forgot to take another when I was done.

The issue I'm having is timing the shot but I think it's worthy of it's own thread.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well after an encouraging morning I shot a local shoot last evening and stunk up the place. Not an excuse but I hated the lighting and I should have worn a hat. Overhead florescent bulbs with no covers, filtering or buffers and no direct lighting on the target butts is not to my liking at all. Hmmm, I guess it is an excuse...


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