# THE not awlays trashy



## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Hello everyone. I just returned home from our 2nd leg of the OK NE Triple Classic held at Coyote Bluff, in Bristo. It was a wonderful shoot. It was my first time to shoot this course. They did a wonderful job, really enjoyed the setup. They had several terrain breaks and deceptive shoots.

It was brought to my attention that a few shooters that have become custom to the Trashier side of THE were disapointed, and said this it was not a THE course. So I would like to try to clear this up. THE has gained a rep, with just cause, of having much trashier shots than your average event. However, it has never been and never will be required, allowed and maybe even encouraged ok maybe even heavily encouraged.

Though at the events like our World Championship you will see shots that require broken form and threading the needle that is revered to as trash. Open style events are still legal and acceptable to THE standards. Fact is if you are used to trash and get opened up you will have judging problems. If you are used to open and are given trash you might catch some of the obstructions. Which yes can be costly. But, the fact is their are both types of shooters out their to be marketed too. Fact is both styles of setups are very realistic.

THE has and always will aim for the trashy side of 3D and the clean side of Traditional at our World event. But, our host ranges are allowed to setup were they are comfortable. And means anything from the normal ASA, IBO setups to as far as their imagination might take them with the THE guidelines.

With that said thank you all that help make this event happen ths weekend.
Jimmy Gould
CEO/Founder
Deerman's THE 3D


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## tree_frog (Dec 17, 2003)

*judgment*

Seems like a bit of poor judgement to push or encourage "trashy" shots, perhaps it is a hinderence to your shoots or trying to get them into local clubs with this type of judgement. I have not shot one but in just reading your post probably won't. Taking away from a wound is one thing and I do like that format but to putup or encourage trashy shots is another and I don't think it aids in bringing in new shooters. Now you can use the age old comeback of thats how it is in hunting but that just doens't fly with me..JMHO


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## keyman (Mar 22, 2003)

That is why I quit shooting THE. I love the scoring format but it is not my opinion of a competition to shoot into a tree limb hoping for a good ricochet into the scoring rings. Just don't understand it. I love the tight shots but still think the entire "vital" zone ought to be unobstructed. THE could be as big as ASA if they fixed just a couple of issues.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Deermans*

I personally like the more challenge ranges. But Coyote Bluff had a good turnout and great range. Kicked my butt for what ever reason. Wind diffiantly afective are shooting. Sure didnt effect Annette Pettigrew she slaughter the course.

I get tired of the same ole open lane shots. I like a little challenge and streching at times. THE has a great foremat and many hunters like it.

Plenty of open lane shoots around.
DB


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## huntinpool (May 5, 2004)

If you don't like a shot, just don't shoot it. Protest it and everyone will get the max score on it. I've witnessed this and after all the protest were done the 3rd place shooter moved to 1st. This is a silly rule, you didn't even have to pay to protest on top of that. That was and will be the last THE event that I will attend as well as many of the other shooters that day. If you set a target and a stake I'm gonna shoot at it, trash or not and take the score that I got. I'm not walking away saying thats to hard or I couldn't see the ring to shoot. That's where the protest rule is a joke.


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## keyman (Mar 22, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> I personally like the more challenge ranges. But Coyote Bluff had a good turnout and great range. Kicked my butt for what ever reason. Wind diffiantly afective are shooting. Sure didnt effect Annette Pettigrew she slaughter the course.
> 
> I get tired of the same ole open lane shots. I like a little challenge and streching at times. THE has a great foremat and many hunters like it.
> 
> ...


If this is meant for my post, I did not ever say I did not like challenging courses, I said I do not agree with shooting into a bush or tree limb and hoping the arrow will not be deflected in a bad direction. I don't like shooting at something that I can not clearly see. That is one of the hunter education rules taught by the wildlife department and THE encourages poor ethics while shooting a sport that is supposed to help us hunt better. 
Sure there are some clubs that will still set up a tough course without doing it in an unsafe or unethical manner as far as a hunting situation. 

Bring on the tough course, leave the trash at home.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Vaughn*



keyman said:


> If this is meant for my post, I did not ever say I did not like challenging courses, I said I do not agree with shooting into a bush or tree limb and hoping the arrow will not be deflected in a bad direction. I don't like shooting at something that I can not clearly see. That is one of the hunter education rules taught by the wildlife department and THE encourages poor ethics while shooting a sport that is supposed to help us hunt better.
> Sure there are some clubs that will still set up a tough course without doing it in an unsafe or unethical manner as far as a hunting situation.
> 
> Bring on the tough course, leave the trash at home.


I have been supporting the THE for years. There not your clear lane shots. Its not for everyone. Its different and appealing to many in many ways. Most ever shot is makable and they have made the ranges more open for most. I think what they do with there ranges often is very apealing to many that attend the THE. THE comcept is just challenging because you may have to lean or turn around and shoot. Just another type of 3d.
DB


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Ok let me clear something up. When I use the term trashy it is cause that is what a few shooters call it. I am only encouraging the concept of tighter partically obstructed shots on about 5 out of a 30 target course. I agree 100% their should not be a shot that you have to hit an obsturction to score. You shold be able to find away around it, over it, under it, but never through it. (Unless their is enough room to shoot the entire 12 and 15 ring through obstruction.) By leaning, kneeling, sitting, twisting, and or using arrow arch. I fully understand that some of our host ranges have carried it over board on a few shots. But, each and every shooter has the right to protest the legality of a shot. If their is something over board you can protest to the host range officials or one of my staff members we will do the minimum amount nessary to make the shot legal. The shooter must however see the problem before pulling the trigger, and refuse to shoot the shot then after the shot has been reported, reviewed he/she will be given the chance to shoot the shot after the change has been made. And, yes I am sorry but it is just real live that animals don't stop in the perfect shooting lane. I can shoot our style events and go serveral years and never hit an obstruction. And I am not a high average shooter, I talk to much. I have learned over the past 10 years of setting ranges and shooting ranges set in this type of format exactly how an arrow flies. And trust me it aint flat at any speed yet.

It is amazing to me that because of this post someone would never shoot one of our events. When I was talking up the fact that an event that was set 99% ASA legal. And, I was letting everyone know I was very happy with that. They only had one shot on the course that had any obstruction in front of a vital area, and even that one was still an open kill shot.

Dan thank you once again for your support. Their are lots of folks out there that love what we do. And, our numbers continue to grow each year.

Keyman, I would love to discuss these issues with you. Cause, we make chages every year, and are still making changes. For that is how we grow. I know and embrash the fact I will never make everyone happy, I am not trying to do that. But, I do take everything said into consideration.

I will also openly admit I started this whole thing in 1999, with the attitude that I had a better idea than IBO or ASA. However, I have grown to learn that I just have a different idea is all. In fact Darrel Trout and I have begun working together this year and have plans in the comming years to try and promote both THE and ASA together here in OK, while yet remaining separate as well. I have come to look at it as all organizations are needed and should be promoted for success. We are all archers, and we need to look at it that way.

I will also admit that I used to set shot trashier than I do now. I used to leave a lot of small vines, leaves, etc. haggingin your arrow path. I no loger do that. I may have you shoot through a gap only 8 inch wide, and only once on a championship course, at max yardage, but the 8 inch gap is clean. Most of the time your arrow path at our world event is an average of 18 to 24inches wide and clean path of arrow flight. That does not maen that agian one or two shots may be vissually obstructed, but the arrow flight path will be clean. When you find the intented one that is. And, if you look for it. I promise you can find it. You just might not get to stand up straight to do it.

Thank you all for your responses,


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Perfect example here:
"If you don't like a shot, just don't shoot it. Protest it and everyone will get the max score on it. I've witnessed this and after all the protest were done the 3rd place shooter moved to 1st. This is a silly rule, you didn't even have to pay to protest on top of that. That was and will be the last THE event that I will attend as well as many of the other shooters that day. If you set a target and a stake I'm gonna shoot at it, trash or not and take the score that I got. I'm not walking away saying thats to hard or I couldn't see the ring to shoot. That's where the protest rule is a joke." 

This rule has been changed and was changed at the conclusion of that very year you are talking aobut( which I believe was 04 or 05). Go though and read the rule book you maybe shocked at what you find that has changed. This rule is still in play as far as protesting but now scores do not change. Instead we look at the target from your point of view. If we agree with you then we will do the very least possible to make this shot shootable. As an effort not to change the intented purpose of the shot. Heck man we have seen shots over the past few years that were protested and when looked at due to wind blowing a limb out of a tree the shot was not at all what the host range intended. And also, fact is none of us are perfect.

I do hope that those of you out there that have quit because of the once trashier shots, or rules like this one will check to see if the rule you have a problem with has been changed and if not drop me an e-mail I will not call you out into public on it. However, if you want to voice it here I will be glad to discuss it here as well. I only make you one promise if you let me know about a problem you have with us we as a group will discuss it and consider your view very seriously.

Also we removed the word ethics from our name. I wish that I thought of the name change myself but I didn't it was a felow shooter that brought it to my attention. I had considered changing the word ethics before but just never found a word that said the right thing in place of it. Then, just in conversation Andy Papas said what about Experienses. For me that was a du moment. To many people over the years have taken it as a personal challenge when I never meant it that way.

I would like to invite you all to give us another try, and give me another try to listen to your thoughts. We are trying to improve at all times.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Deermans*

Here pictures from last years state shoot. Okmulgee, Ok.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=505894&highlight=Deermans

Okmulgee club has always been known for its hunting type shots. It was tight in places but all shots were clearly makable. Folks had a great time and this is typical of THE events. But if you dont like getting on your knees or leaning these might not be for you because you will lean and sqaut at times.

Oklahoma archers have really shown they like this type of event. I just returned from Paris, Tx where I saw ASA cover the entire animal except for the vitals, 14 ring was not shootable. When I see shots like this quartered and tough thats my idea of challenging. Have several shooting buddies that dont care for it and thats fine. 

Deermans has changed rules and tried to listen and make classes for everyone. I shoot one pin for hunting and really enjoy that class due to the fact I shoot one pin hunting. Be open minded and give them a shot. I really have seen many enjoy this type of range:wink:
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Examples*

These pictures were from the first world shoot. I have not seen this tough of a range like this one sense. I happen to like these types of shots.

The bottom target was a little to much and upset many at the first world event. You dont see that any more.
That turkey target was tough but it was less than 20 yards. Shooting between trees like that makes some just get nervous as can be. Thats challenging. Deermans has come a long way and continues to show there willing to change and listen to archers.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you Dan,

Lets talk about these pics. They were from 04.

Turkey top left, the gap there was aproximatly 4 inches wide, but dan said this target from the back stake was like 12 yards. Tight but if your bow is tuned properly very make able. And, not that I might not do this one agian some time as Dan said I haven't in three years.

Leopard top right. This pic was taken from a standing position. If you kneel down and shoot up into the target this shoot is so wide open. And agian this shoot from the back stake was aproximatly 22-24 yards long.

Single Deer bottom left. The problem with this target is not actually sceen in the pic. This target was 34-36 yards back stake, but see the small vines in this pic there was a lot of them hanging in the arrow path behind were Dan was standing to tak ethis pic. Now, Dan has seen this type of Gap again since at world and other events, but the vines are cleaned up in the gap area anyway. As Dan Said I listen to my shooters most say theydon't mind the tightness, it is just the loose trash that caused the problem.

Double Deer bottom right. These shoots were at 40 and 45 yards and I will do this kind of stuff from time to time. The window you are looking through is aproximatly 10 yards in front of the back stake and the rest of this lane is open grass to the targets.

Deerman's THE 3D...taking hunters to the Edge. If we practice these shot they become simple and then in the real world when it is the buck of a life time we have no question of our capabilities. We know if we should take the shoot or let it walk. For example the tight single deer shot is given to you and he's 140 inches and within your effective but you have never practice do you shoot or not. I will go out on a limb here and say the percentage of arrow s that would fly in real life are well into the 90% range. If you are more disaplaned than that then good for you. Myself, I just want to practice so much I know when the only thing it cost me is 10 -12 an arrow if I make a mistake instead of looseing the buck of a life time cause I never seen it in practice before.

Personnally, that is what 3D archery is all about to me practice for real life. Sure we make it a competive sport as well. But if it is only a target game then lets put round targets at teh end of these lanes instead of animals, then dude closest to center wins.


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## JAG (May 23, 2006)

I've shot THE events and I like them. I like a more challenging shot and I appreciate that THE is a different venue than ASA. 
I haven't liked some of the rules in the past, but I did make my opinion/dislike known to Jimmy at the time and he did consider it for the following year. Thats all i can ask for.
I would suggest that if you have the chance, try a THE shoot sometime. If you dont like it, you dont have to go to another.


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## NHLHVECTRIX (Jan 3, 2008)

this is what most of the shots out here in the northeast look like.
I would be screwed shooting in the open. could never judge the yardage..

Looks great just with you where closer..

:darkbeer:


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Look I want everyone here to understand I take none of this personally. I have an idea and have stuck with it for 8 years now. I don't plan on changing the core of why I started it. Which is to push the hunters limits to make him or her more lethal in the woods. But, I am willing to listen to everyones opinion that wants to give it in a respectable manner. (No, that is not aimed at anybody.)

As Dan and others have said this is not for everyone, but for those that like to be challenged, or believe the way I do that you can not prepare for the hard stuff by only practicing the easy stuff then please come give THE a try.

Again, I want to encourage any range interested in hosting one of our events. To please contact me or one of our staff members. You are not required to set your event any different than you would on any given weekend. But, you do have that option.

My hat is off to Coyote Bluff once again Great shoot this past weekend and we look forward to you hosting with us again. The course was Tuff and clean, but more important that everyone involved with helping was a pleasure to be around, and I am sorry, I didn't get and remember everyones names, but the burgers were to die for. The shooters that were there were friendly and open to talk with. Thank you all very much.

Jag thank you so much for your input. I did listen to you and I am pretty sure that most of your personal concerns were changed? That can't always happen everytime, but guys if I don't here it from you then I don't know it. Some times being the guy on top means that your are to close to the fire to feel the flames. And, just because some one else has discussed your problem with me before I might here your point of view differently. 

I guess I just like my ranges a little on the trashy side. LOL
I have pushed my personal view on host ranges in teh past. Now, I just let it be my opinion and their choice. I must be going soft. LEM


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

To NHLHVECTRIX

All we need to be closer is a host range. I am perpared to go anywhere a range is will to try something new. I mean anywhere in the world. Belief it or not we have interest from at least one range in every State in the US and some from Canada and Mexico. They haven't commited yet, but all it will take is a little more time.

It is hard for someone to be the first in a new area. It takes a lot of guts, then a club willing to take a chance. However, we are doing all we can each year to make sure that it is impossible for a range to loose money on hosting one of our events.

Sometimes if the turn out is low do to weather we have had ranges try to claim that they lost money because of their rent or prep money for the event. But, those are factors they would have had weither they hosted that weekend for THE or not. But, as far as Money in from shooters and money out due to awards and shooter fees we have made it mathmatically sound. And, if someone shows me a seniro that that is not true I will do everything possible to make the nessary changes.

For THE to succeed the host range must first. Cause, the double edge sword of win win is loose loose. The range must come first then THE. We look for the triple win of the range, THE, and the shooter. Thank you for your interest. If anyone wishes to check out more about Deermans THE 3D here is our website. www.the3d.org


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## Avalon (Jul 23, 2007)

Looks like a total blast!! 

I don't think that just 'cause you take some crazy shot at a 3d tournament you're duty bound to shoot that in a real hunting situation. It is alot like hunting, but it's still target archery. 

I personally think threading the needle is fun. Can't handle it? Don't shoot it.


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## elitearcher35 (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey, Guys
I've been huntin Religiously for the past 5 years. All I can say
is I've never been able to make a perfect form shot in the deer woods.
Jimmy Thanks for all the realistic practice shots! Every one has helped me put food on the table. 

As a THE STAF MEMBER I try to listen to everyones problems and help Jimmy to see thier side of it to so if you would like to help give me an e mail
all suggestions will be documented and discused at our national meeting.

Guys I shoot alot of asa shoots as well as THE Ive found none more satisfying than a tuff THE EVENT!

|If you have any Imagination at all you can see yourself making any shot we set up. However I cant say that I have aimed at every 15 and been sucsesful but tryin on a foam target is better than shooting that buck of a lifetime in the guts and watching him run over the ridge never to be seen again! Iguess what im trying to say is for me this form of archery is as close as I can get to the real thing


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## elitearcher35 (Jan 6, 2008)

sorry guys my email is [email protected]
OK SE REG MNGR.

happy shootin to ya wherever it is!


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you all for your support. I would like to invite everyone who has shot THE in the past to come out and give us a try again. We have made so many little changes in the past four years. That it may not even seem like the same type of event you got upset with and quit before. We are perfect and maybe not for everyone, but we are for the hunter.

I am in the process of making who to video's, that will show case how to get back into form on our broken form shoots. This process is much deeper and costly than I thought it would be but, in the end I believe it will pay off. Because shooting shots like leaning, kneeling, sitting, and twisting actually can become valuable skills both on our ranges as well as in the deep woods of the hunt.

The dump shot, can also become a skill. Learning how to vissualize were the 15 ring lies to carry the back of an animal or a creek bank. Can gain you points just as a long turkey or javilina is the difference in ASA, IBO. But, it can mean the difference in wishing and putting the buck of a lifetime on the wall out of a ground blind. This happened to my brother-in-law, few years back and he had never practiced it so he didn't try and the buck stood on the other side of a group of does until it was to dark to shoot. the does were at 20 yards, the buck hung up at approximately 35 yards. This took place on the edge of large field. We setup alsmost the exact shot and let him try it with targets and without even coming close to one of the does the Buck target received a boiler room shot to die for. Trust me if that ever happens to him again within his effective range he will be one happy hunter.


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## Okie Archer (May 16, 2007)

I'll chime in here. Although I haven't shot much THE this year, I still enjoy it when I get the opportunity. In my opinion the scoring system is the best out there (I don't believe someone should be rewarded for missing the target, yes a wound = a miss). As for the "trash", I am a traditional shooter...you haven't seen trash until you go to an all tradtional shoot. From what I have seen, THE courses are pretty much trash free. Sure you may have to break your form from time to time, but almost all the time the target (kill rings) is not blocked.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Few comments*

Although I understand Jimmie comparing this to hunting. Lets make it perfectly clear to the kids some of these shots should not be taken on game.

This is a tournament/Game and Im glad the ethics word is removed. I diffiantly feel in hunting if there any hesitatation on a possiable miss the shot should not be taken. Lets face it theres plenty of wounds and minus fives in these shoots. I made three this weekend. Kids dont forget and often make a tough shot and hit a tree and hit the target in a tournament and remember that. We should no way be condining this in a real hunting.

Tournaments hone are skills for hunting. 3d is not hunting.

Deermans has diffiantly made some changes that are good. :wink:
DB


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## gollie15 (Feb 25, 2003)

Sounds like these shoots would be a ball. That turkey shot at the 1st world shoot is a shot, I put on my range every time I have a shoot & have yet to have a complaint; a little grumbling, but no complaints unless the score is less than the shooter expected from a 12 yd. shot. 

Is there a website for your organization? I'd like to check a schedule, to see if there's one within a reasonable distance of WV.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

gollie15 said:


> Sounds like these shoots would be a ball. That turkey shot at the 1st world shoot is a shot, I put on my range every time I have a shoot & have yet to have a complaint; a little grumbling, but no complaints unless the score is less than the shooter expected from a 12 yd. shot.
> 
> Is there a website for your organization? I'd like to check a schedule, to see if there's one within a reasonable distance of WV.


The website is www.the3d.org at this time you will not see anything out your way we are currently active in Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas. However, if you are will to look at hosting one for us we would love to talk with you. This years range contract is on the website as well. Complete with rules, shoot schedule, and list of officiers if yo uneed to talk to one of personally for any clarification.


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## mathewsgirl13 (Mar 12, 2007)

JAG said:


> I've shot THE events and I like them. I like a more challenging shot and I appreciate that THE is a different venue than ASA.
> I haven't liked some of the rules in the past, but I did make my opinion/dislike known to Jimmy at the time and he did consider it for the following year. Thats all i can ask for.
> I would suggest that if you have the chance, try a THE shoot sometime. If you dont like it, you dont have to go to another.


Agree to the fullest...

THE is a great organization that has the opportunity to go far in the archery organization. Last year at the World shoot, we had a blast, that is why we will return, because Jimmy and the THE staff do put on a good shoot!


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Although I understand Jimmie comparing this to hunting. Lets make it perfectly clear to the kids some of these shots should not be taken on game.
> 
> This is a tournament/Game and Im glad the ethics word is removed. I diffiantly feel in hunting if there any hesitatation on a possiable miss the shot should not be taken. Lets face it theres plenty of wounds and minus fives in these shoots. I made three this weekend. Kids dont forget and often make a tough shot and hit a tree and hit the target in a tournament and remember that. We should no way be condining this in a real hunting.
> 
> ...


Yes, your are correct Dan. On the ranges that I personally set. You as an individual have to let your capablities and the results of your efforts dictate what you are and are not capable of doing in a real life hunting situation. Because, I have always said my whole point is to setting targets so that they will push each shooter beyond his or her perconcieved abilities. To learn what their limits are then practice to move beyond them. But, I will make this statement I do not set any target and never have that if that setup were in front of me within my personal effective range, which is under normal conditions about 35 yards or less, that I myself would not take in the wild. Now, just cause I would does not mean that you or anyone else should. We each have to know our limitations. But, to truely know them we must push beyond them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*You wound many critters*



THEDeerman said:


> Yes, your are correct Dan. On the ranges that I personally set. You as an individual have to let your capablities and the results of your efforts dictate what you are and are not capable of doing in a real life hunting situation. Because, I have always said my whole point is to setting targets so that they will push each shooter beyond his or her perconcieved abilities. To learn what their limits are then practice to move beyond them. But, I will make this statement I do not set any target and never have that if that setup were in front of me within my personal effective range, which is under normal conditions about 35 yards or less, that I myself would not take in the wild. Now, just cause I would does not mean that you or anyone else should. We each have to know our limitations. But, to truely know them we must push beyond them.



Some of those targets set at THE. One shouldnt be shooting at them in the wild in my opionion. Shooting between a one foot tree at a live animal is not what I would take and I know I can make the shot on a tournament setting. You also have made shots through holes in brush. Those are tough shots for the best archers.:wink: I have seen your scores, you must wound alot of animals Shooting live deer I want to make the best shot possiable and will wait or pass that shot. I hope kids arent learning those are the shots to take in the real hunting scenarios. Jimmy the deer in the second picture at 35 yrds you would take that shot?
DB
DB


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## elitearcher35 (Jan 6, 2008)

Dan I would like to help jimmy answer that question. After talking with jimmy about hunting . If he had shot this shot as many times as THE does and he was comfortable in his ability and his equipment in scoring a kill or 12
yes! I Know with out a doubt I would I shot a 130 class 9 point in almost the same setup! three seasons ago. buck went 25yrds and pilled up


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Some of those targets set at THE. One shouldnt be shooting at them in the wild in my opionion. Shooting between a one foot tree at a live animal is not what I would take and I know I can make the shot on a tournament setting. You also have made shots through holes in brush. Those are tough shots for the best archers.:wink: I have seen your scores, you must wound alot of animals Shooting live deer I want to make the best shot possiable and will wait or pass that shot. I hope kids arent learning those are the shots to take in the real hunting scenarios. Jimmy the deer in the second picture at 35 yrds you would take that shot?
> DB
> DB


Ok, OK you caught me I can't shoot to save my life. :wink: Let me let you in on a little seceret. :secret: I actually can shoot a bow quite well. :zip: I just don't shut my mouth long enough to look at the yard stick.  This is why I don't hit obstructions cause when I need to I check the shot out more I do. But in most cases I look long enough to say well thats between 30 and 35 I'll hold 33 lets rock, now what was I saying. Oh yeh.....

But, :laugh: I can totally understand where you would get your opinion,  cause you and the rest of the public can't see what most of my staff and my close friends do. If I shut up or in those cases where I do turn in high scores some one shut me up. I can be competive with most.

Now, lets both agree so the public reading this will understand we are not bashing each other here and fighting over opinions. We both just have a different one. And, that is ok. Yes, if all the factors are right then I would kill any one of those animals in your pics. Now, let's look at the factors?

Little to no wind, 35 yards or less, and their is no chance that I will get a better shot.

Lets look at the deer on the bottom left. The single between the trees less than a 12 inch gap. That gap actually messures 9.75 inches. I only remember cause when we set it up there was a big enough deal made over it that we measured it just to see. Now, explore beyond the pic in your mind with me. I have been watching this deer in a near by clearing for over an hour just out of range. She finally walks inside the tree line and skirts the edge of the lighter underbrush My ground blind is setting in. As you can see from this pic that this is the only hole I can see her in. If she turns around to wlak away no shot. If she continues on in her current dirrection she will not provide a shot either. I think back to my capabilities and the times that I have shot this setup on the course and I can put this arrow through her boilier room 100 out of 100 times. So, why shouldn't I shoot.

Let me ask the question this way if it were less then 30 yards, less than 20, less than 10 would you shoot. If so my friend then this has just become a question of our own personal set limitations vs. mine. Not a question of the Gap size.

Now, to say the least I have been lucky I have only hit two deer I could find within 100 yards of hitting them. Granted, I have only killed four. I have personally only hit 6 deer in real life. One, cause I have become very picky about my shots, two I have spent the past 8 years with Colton at my side. (which of course is better than any numbr of deer I could killed) I did however shoot 54 arrows thruogh the air before I ever killed my first deer. Most would not admit to that.

I started hunting at the age of 18 never shot 3D, and no one to guide me in what to do. I hunted on some land at Tish. public hunting to my South, each morning I went that year, I saw deer. I never practiced from a tree stand, but I could hit a pie plate at 20 yard with that recurve. I thought I could kill anything right, wrong. After, that season and 32 shots at deer, now not 32 different deer some of them got shot at 3-6 times. I killed my first two deer at the age of 21 on my b-day. 22 miss after that first year someone told me that a bow doesn't hit the same spot from a tree as the ground. I just assumed it was buck fever I couldn't over come. And, that person also told me to quit shooting at the deer and pick a spot. So, with a little practice and upgrade in equipment Shot #55 put the deer down in about 100 yards and two minutes later #56 put that deer down in less than 35 yards. I made a few more misses before THE was born. Since then with Colton I have killed with #61 and #63. #62 was a kill shot but no recovery. I hit her with a muzzy practice broadhead in the boilier room but she plugged off and we didn't have a trail and gave up after about 10 hours. Not, a possitive experience. "Minus FIVE":wink:

Sorry for the novel, but all said and done the question is still should I or shouldn't I. Well fact is weather I would or you wouldn't doesn't really matter. What matter's is what would each individual do? See, I can't say weather you should or shouldn't and won't say weather someone else should or shouldn't. Fact is if we put this up to a public opinion I think it would never come out to a majorty wins factor. Cause, all that matters is what each person decides at the moment of truth.

We can only define our own personal ethics, limitations, and risks we are willing to take. I don't feel challeged by you asking these type of questions either. We are both entitled to our opinions.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*So its worth the risk?*



elitearcher35 said:


> Dan I would like to help jimmy answer that question. After talking with jimmy about hunting . If he had shot this shot as many times as THE does and he was comfortable in his ability and his equipment in scoring a kill or 12
> yes! I Know with out a doubt I would I shot a 130 class 9 point in almost the same setup! three seasons ago. buck went 25yrds and pilled up


Risk is hitting the tree. Lots of brush in that shot as well. Doesnt take much of a vine to move an arrow especially with a broadhead.:wink: Its a no shot for me. I have had that shot many times and never have shot between trees.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Didnt say you couldnt shoot*



THEDeerman said:


> Ok, OK you caught me I can't shoot to save my life. :wink: Let me let you in on a little seceret. :secret: I actually can shoot a bow quite well. :zip: I just don't shut my mouth long enough to look at the yard stick.  This is why I don't hit obstructions cause when I need to I check the shot out more I do. But in most cases I look long enough to say well thats between 30 and 35 I'll hold 33 lets rock, now what was I saying. Oh yeh.....
> 
> But, :laugh: I can totally understand where you would get your opinion,  cause you and the rest of the public can't see what most of my staff and my close friends do. If I shut up or in those cases where I do turn in high scores some one shut me up. I can be competive with most.
> 
> ...



I said one must know the limiations. Many of the THE shots that year for sure where not makeable hunting shots. Yes standing there in tournament those shots could be made. I remeber many losing arrows and some were the better shooters. So your skill level isnt the only one in question. Its just a disscussion because ehn it come to teaching youth how to hunt and what shots to take. Im real clear about waiting for the right shot. Just ask the 11 yr. old that I made wait about 20 minutes this year for a side shot compared to quartering away shot. He learned patience and wait for the right shot.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Example Jimmie*

This deer would have been standing between trees. I would have maybe hit the trees. I wasnt aiming for the front shoulder like the hit shows. It worked out because the shot was wide open. I have made plenty of bad shots in my time and learned hunting we need to get the shot right.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> I said one must know the limiations. Many of the THE shots that year for sure where not makeable hunting shots. Yes standing there in tournament those shots could be made. I remeber many losing arrows and some were the better shooters. So your skill level isnt the only one in question. Its just a disscussion because ehn it come to teaching youth how to hunt and what shots to take. Im real clear about waiting for the right shot. Just ask the 11 yr. old that I made wait about 20 minutes this year for a side shot compared to quartering away shot. He learned patience and wait for the right shot.
> DB


Again, I agree with the waiting thing and being sure about your shot. However, I am teaching Colton my 10 year old that, with his personal skills,(scoring well over 400 @ 10 yards when he was only 6 years old and moved back to the 20 yard stake just to challenge himself) that if he has a 6 inch wide gap, open top to bottom approximately 18 inches with the 12 ring centered in the kill zone, and the shot is within in his effective range 15 yards or less get it done. I also do not allow him to take quartering shots either. But, you know it is a good thing we all have differnt opinions or I would have to fight all you for Heather. :wink: My wife for those of you that don't know.

Again, I am not saying I am going to go back to setting the targets with the trashy vines, but from time to time you will see the window shots and the tight 6-8 inch gaps. And, yes I stand behind the fact I would take all the shots we set, in the wild. Maybe not from the distances set form max yardages of the hunters classes 40 yards, and not form the back stake at all. But, the shot senerio "picture, view" all day everyday. But, that is only my opinion, and the opinion of my staff for the past serveral years. Cause those that help with setup are asked this very question would you take these shots in the wild? If someone says no then we go look agin and make chages, so anything you have ever seen that was set at a World event yes yes yes.

Our first World event was set in 1999 and would have made the one you first came to in 2004 look like a cake walk. So, bottom line I have listen to the public and softened World a little, but I won't be backing off any more than where I am at now. Which is not what I think yo uare getting at anyway.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> This deer would have been standing between trees. I would have maybe hit the trees. I wasnt aiming for the front shoulder like the hit shows. It worked out because the shot was wide open. I have made plenty of bad shots in my time and learned hunting we need to get the shot right.


Good buck my friend


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*What I am saying*



THEDeerman said:


> Again, I agree with the waiting thing and being sure about your shot. However, I am teaching Colton my 10 year old that, with his personal skills,(scoring well over 400 @ 10 yards when he was only 6 years old and moved back to the 20 yard stake just to challenge himself) that if he has a 6 inch wide gap, open top to bottom approximately 18 inches with the 12 ring centered in the kill zone, and the shot is within in his effective range 15 yards or less get it done. I also do not allow him to take quartering shots either. But, you know it is a good thing we all have differnt opinions or I would have to fight all you for Heather. :wink: My wife for those of you that don't know.
> 
> Again, I am not saying I am going to go back to setting the targets with the trashy vines, but from time to time you will see the window shots and the tight 6-8 inch gaps. And, yes I stand behind the fact I would take all the shots we set, in the wild. Maybe not from the distances set form max yardages of the hunters classes 40 yards, and not form the back stake at all. But, the shot senerio "picture, view" all day everyday. But, that is only my opinion, and the opinion of my staff for the past serveral years. Cause those that help with setup are asked this very question would you take these shots in the wild? If someone says no then we go look agin and make chages, so anything you have ever seen that was set at a World event yes yes yes.
> 
> Our first World event was set in 1999 and would have made the one you first came to in 2004 look like a cake walk. So, bottom line I have listen to the public and softened World a little, but I won't be backing off any more than where I am at now. Which is not what I think yo uare getting at anyway.



Is tournament is nothing like hunting. Take that from many that would say the same thing that have harvested many deer in there lifetime. Scenario for hunting and tournament are diffiantly two different matters. Taking a shot of a foam target and real animal are like night and day for most. Degree of diffiaculty becomes more on a live target :wink: I have proved that theory taking hunters hunting for years. :wink: Even the most wide open shot can be missed with heartrate.
DB


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Im more like DB on this one and many others. I don't use 3D to hone my skills for hunting. I do it for competition. If my scores go up it doesn't mean Im not going to miss that deer come season it means im competively getting better at shooting and judging. Lets face it, if we were out there to hone our skills for hunting we would shoot all our shots from a treestand or a groundblind with broadheads on and we wouldn't have a score card to tell us how well we shot. IMHO


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

This debt could go on forever, I could get a lot of people that feel the exact oppisite from you guys as well. 3D, has improved my hunting skills beyond comprehention. I agree that buck fever plays a role (and if I ever find away to cause it on a 3D course I will.) Don't look for that to happen. But, for me practicing these type of shots helped with that buck fever feeling. For myself at this level of the game My buck fever takes place after the shot not during and that is what all hunters should strive for.

I also can tell you for a fact, that it has helped Colton. He was born shooting, at the highest difficulty levels possible and has grown up in ground blinds and just now graduated to tree stands. And, from our experiences and the animals he has taken with shotguns, bows, and rifles. He has already over come the buck fever factor. Until after the shot, then hey buddy can't neither one of us breath. I understand you guys point of view and think you are entitled to it. But, on this one we will have to agree to disagree. 3D is and always has been 100% about hunting for me. When we discuss changes at our national meeting. We always discuss how does this effect the Hunter first, then the competitive aspect. If it ever becomes just a shooting sport to me I will quit. I do not market THE to the shooter as a shooter, but through them to the hunter as a hunter. Most every shooter is also a hunter, even if only at heart. I will say it agian if this is just a target game let's put round targets at the end of the lanes not animals. Just my opinion.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Wow, how did we get here when I was giving Coyote Bluff an at-a-boy. High Five. Fact is people having differnet opinions is what makes the world go round. As the song says we can talk about anything except, Polotics, Relgion, and HER. :wink:


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

I am gonna quit defending the why of my World setups now. The fact is I am no longer trying to convince ranges to change their setup to host a qualifier for us. I just am allowing them to have the option. Good example Okmulgee won't open up their lanes to host an ASA/IBO becuse they are a hunting club. They don't look at this as a target game. They look at it practice for hunting, period.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Bottomline*

Deermans is fun and I will shoot it anytime I can.:wink:
DB


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Dan, I want you and everyone who reads this to know. I thank you for your honest opinions, and the suppport you have always shown for THE. I don't think you have missed a World event since you started coming in 04. You always have great incriminating pics to show the public. I would just like to invite everyone out to see what all the discussion is for yourself. You will not be disapointed. If we do not have qualifier in you r area, but you would like to attend World e-mail me or PM me we will extend a one special invite to you.
Thanks,
Jimmy Gould CEO/Founder
Deermans THE 3D
www.the3d.org


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

*THE Website poll*

Just for kicks I put the pic we have been talking about on our website. On the polls page. With a poll for you all to mark at what yardage you would take that shot in the wild. 50 or less, 40 or less, 30 or less, 20 or less, or not ever. I will leave it there for the rest of this season for sure and maybe longer. Your names are not posted with your response. Go to www.the3d.org then click on polls. Then you can check out the rest of the site while you are there.


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## kennyelp (May 30, 2007)

*The*

How come there are not any Texas shoots this year as in years past, in fact my first 3d shoot was at a Deerman at Iba in april 2006,I like the format that if you miss the vitals it is a minus -5.


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## wlw723 (Feb 10, 2008)

*hey DB*

that is my kind of shoot , it adds pressure to your shot ,we shoot that way at the boxes at our club the closest arrow picks the next obstructed/ tight shot . I think that kind of shooting helps to make you better 10-15 dollars an arrow will force you to shoot your best.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

kennyelp said:


> How come there are not any Texas shoots this year as in years past, in fact my first 3d shoot was at a Deerman at Iba in april 2006,I like the format that if you miss the vitals it is a minus -5.


Partly cause of the very content of this discussion, and partly cause of personl issues with a club. However, I hope that over time both can be resolved. If there are any clubs large or the very smallest of single owner ranges out there that is interested in hosting one of our events we would love to go over with you how we can build a partnership with you. Everything we do is win, win. If the club makes money then THE makes money, however that also means if the club doesn't make money then we don't make money. This is the double edged sword of win, win. If anyone reads our range contract and feels that it is not a win, win agreement please contact me and explain why so that I can fix it. However, over the years we have worked very hard to make it the best it can be for win, win.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

*opps Website updates*

I am sorry for any of you looking for our range contract I didn't have the link to that page up, but it is up now.


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## Texas tony (Apr 15, 2008)

*deermans*

having been in the t.h.e.family since 2003,i have met some very good people and respect what jimmy has done with his format in 3-d archery.i shoot in the single pin class,as i will not shoot past 30 yards when hunt i whitetail deer. thats just me.any way most people will not pass up on shot on a trophy whitetail at any distance,the botton line is probally 80% of most hunters are walmart hunters as i was when i started and will take the shot.deermans taught me to shoot at differant scenarios in an effort to raise my skill level and find my limitations. i look forward to each shoot i can go to .as far as trashy shots go i ,i have rarely seen a shot that could not be made,i have never seen a glance off shot at any t.h.e. shoot ive attended. come shoot at one of ours see for yourself.f.y.i i started in 1993 in central texas and shot high country dual hatchett cam bows,i knew twin cams would come back. some of the shooters in that time were larry wier ,fay frigon and ahost of others ,to manyto mention. thank you a little more , my name was given to me because i won the first texas state foosball championship in open doubles in 1974


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Tony thank you for your input. I want to personally thank everyone for their opinions as they have come up becuase of this thread. I truely hope that many of yo uwill come out and shoot one of our events. Try them for your selves we all have our opinion and you can only form yours if yo uhave experienced what it is all about for yourself.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

*Difference between Tight and trashy*

For those of you out there that are picturing our events as trashy(not being able to shoot the target with out an arrow passing through some type of obsturction.) That is no longer the case. There was a time that I allowed such, however now the only thing that an arrow can pass through is light blowing grasses, and other extremely light things that can be seen through. Again, grass, light vines, etc blowing in and out of your view is real life to a hunting situation. I am not approving vines, leaves or grass large enough to change your arrow flight. Example: Tall thin CRP grass, or the small leaves of a vine growing up a tree will not change the arrows direction. However, a cedar tree limb, small branch, or a bush will. This is a fine line but, is up to you as a shooter to know the differnce and protest when the line is crossed. And, up to host ranges to try and setup a shootable shot while giving you a True Hunting Experience. I am only suggesting they do this on 5 or 6 shots out of 30. And, again am not requiring it at all. The ranges that do this agree with my theory that 3d should be hunting practice.

To me shots that are impossible to get an arrow through the gap without hitting and obstruction would be considered trashy. But, a clean tight gap is a whole different story. I belief that if you practice at his level weekend after weekend it becomes second nature. Then, suddenly a 20 inch gap which would have the entire 8ASA/10THE ring (Minimum requirement for ASA) open on most targets. Begains to look wide open. Then, when you see setups where you can see the entire target become a cake walk. 

I do agree with what I think DB is trying to say, if you try these shots at our events and are not successful an extremely high percentage of the time then by no means am I trying to say you should take these type of shots in the wild. Seriously, if you can't do it with foam then please don't try it with flesh and blood.

And, a point was made to me this weekend as far as kids go. Most of the time once we get close enough for their stakes the shoot are not near as difficult, as from the 30 and beyond stakes are. However the 15-17 year old is (30 max. in THE). But, at this age they are capable of making their own mind you up on weahter they should or should not according to their skill level. Their equipment is not a question cause at his point they are shooting the same draw lengths and poundages as any adult. And, some of their skill levels are unbeleaveable.

YES, sometimes we are, teaching the shooter what they can do, while many times as well we are teaching them, what they can not do. We would just rather the leason either way be learned with foam and not a live animal. Cause, my staff and I have talked with many shooters and have for several years now. And, most agree with the theory that the average joe will attemt things in the moment of truth reguardless of the fact they have ever practiced it or not. Some are more displanned than that but, I don't think those are in the majority.

I got defensive with DB earlier in this thread, about our World setup. But, after further thought, and am PM or two between us, I don't think that was nessary. See, it doesn't really matter if you agree with my theory (that our setups are designed to practice for hunting) or his (that THE is simply more of a challenge and you should not take these shots in the wild.) Your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it just we are. However, I just hope you come give it a try.


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## Bronion30 (Jul 9, 2005)

I have supported THE from the beginning. This is a great organization, great ideas for the future of the sport. I remember when 3D events where just getting started, and that was the big draw was just like hunting, without the heart rate. Since I've seen lanes being mowed, trees being cut back, even cut down. Now some organizations are talking about marked yardage. It's time to take 3D back to it's roots.

That's where THE comes in. 

As far as the scoring, I think it is great to deduct for a wound, you don't get rewarded in the woods for shooting a deer in the leg and never finding it. Why do it on the range.

Keep up the good work Jimmy.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Bronion30 said:


> I have supported THE from the beginning. This is a great organization, great ideas for the future of the sport. I remember when 3D events where just getting started, and that was the big draw was just like hunting, without the heart rate. Since I've seen lanes being mowed, trees being cut back, even cut down. Now some organizations are talking about marked yardage. It's time to take 3D back to it's roots.
> 
> That's where THE comes in.
> 
> ...


Brandon once again thank you for your support. When you talk to the old timers that were around in the late 80's and early 90's. It was 100% about huting practice. It has only evolved into a target sport. Example is the open class shooter, they are not the cause of 3D archery simply the result. The IBO is the oldest form of organizied 3D archery, at least to my knowledge, out side of the club atmosphere. IBO, International *Bowhunters* Organization go figure. And , according to some I have visited with they shot off there knees, leaded around trees, and yes they even shot through tight gaps. When I ask why. Most common response, "cause it was all about improving your hunting skills." Maybe I am crazy, but that is what I got into for and what I still do it for. Been, shootin 3D since 1996. That makes this year 12 years if my math is correct.


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## hstubblefield (Feb 16, 2008)

well i love the deerman shoots too i won the 1st leg at okmugee last year in my class i shoot fun in bristow i still did not have it shooting like i wated to but troy did not shoot to bad i am going to shoot the rest of them with troy if i get the chance.


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## MoBo Act 4:12 (Mar 29, 2008)

*The*

JUST WANTED TO SAY..NEVER SHOT ONE OF THESE SHOOTS BUT FROM THE SOUND AND LOOKS OF IT I WOULD LOVE TO. Bottom line.. by now people know the format of these shoots and know what to expect,so the simple solution is..if you don't like the format simply don't shoot in it..isolate yourself to A.S.A. and I.B.O...why would you badmouth it ,expecting them to change everything to suit your style when many others like and enjoy it.I know everybody is entitled to their own opinion... i'm just trying too insert a little common sense reasoning in here.:wink:


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

MoBo Act 4:12 said:


> JUST WANTED TO SAY..NEVER SHOT ONE OF THESE SHOOTS BUT FROM THE SOUND AND LOOKS OF IT I WOULD LOVE TO. Bottom line.. by now people know the format of these shoots and know what to expect,so the simple solution is..if you don't like the format simply don't shoot in it..isolate yourself to A.S.A. and I.B.O...why would you badmouth it ,expecting them to change everything to suit your style when many others like and enjoy it.I know everybody is entitled to their own opinion... i'm just trying too insert a little common sense reasoning in here.:wink:


Fact is that at this point there are shooters that are die hard IBO, ASA, and yes, after eight years THE followers. And, to some degree that will never change. However, If shooters can began to look at it all as just different points of view and different styles of the same sport. Then, there is room for all the different types to be played. Cause, when it really boils down to it we all just love to pull the string and watch that arrow fly in hopes that it hit's is mark.

I hope to have shoots back there in Missouri within the next few years. Of course we will come back sooner if you know of a range that would be willing to consider hosting. Though, I agree with your statement I sure wouldn't want to push any shooter away, or take a shooter from other organizations for that matter. See, my goal is to some how began to peak the interest of the non-shooter, ""the hunter". Right, now I am try to get to him through the shooter. But, I am looking for other ways as well. Fact is THE is here to stay and no we are going to change the very purpose we started this thing for and that is to practice for hunting at the very toughest level possible. To learn our limits as well as teach the shooter his. Then move well beyond.


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## MoBo Act 4:12 (Mar 29, 2008)

*The*



THEDeerman said:


> Fact is that at this point there are shooters that are die hard IBO, ASA, and yes, after eight years THE followers. And, to some degree that will never change. However, If shooters can began to look at it all as just different points of view and different styles of the same sport. Then, there is room for all the different types to be played. Cause, when it really boils down to it we all just love to pull the string and watch that arrow fly in hopes that it hit's is mark.
> 
> I hope to have shoots back there in Missouri within the next few years. Of course we will come back sooner if you know of a range that would be willing to consider hosting. Though, I agree with your statement I sure wouldn't want to push any shooter away, or take a shooter from other organizations for that matter. See, my goal is to some how began to peak the interest of the non-shooter, ""the hunter". Right, now I am try to get to him through the shooter. But, I am looking for other ways as well. Fact is THE is here to stay and no we are going to change the very purpose we started this thing for and that is to practice for hunting at the very toughest level possible. To learn our limits as well as teach the shooter his. Then move well beyond.


Well said deerman..i would love to see some of these shoots in our great state of Missouri,i think it would be a blast!!Some of us guys in our club used to get together and set up targets in this fashion and it was loads of fun,not to mention great hunting simulation.It's just nice to see a different and alternative format as an option to shoot in.:thumbs_up:teeth:


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## Another5 (Jul 9, 2006)

I have only been shooting a bow for a couple of years. One of my first 3D events was a THE event. I enjoyed those first few 3D events so much, I have been hooked on 3D archery ever since. My wife has also become hooked on 3D archery as well. I am not really a bow hunter and I view the 3D events as a sporting competition. I have been shooting both THE and ASA events this year, and I enjoyed them both very much. I know when I go to a THE event it is going to be different then a ASA event. I have enjoyed the differences. 

One of the other things I have enjoyed about the ASA and THE 3D events, in general, is all the people I have met the last couple of years. Mostly, I shot THE last year and many of them had shotgun starts and it forced me to shoot with different archers. I have made many new friends at both the ASA and THE shoots over the last couple of years. I just hope the gas prices........ oh, that is a different thread.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Ya....Shh, Shh:secret: about the G-- word you'll scare everyone off. :secret: I agree with you 100% another5 both syles are just that styles.

And, I make that commit all the time the people that are at any 3D events are just good people. I have two boys 9 and 10 that have grown up on 3D courses and I have no worries when they want to go shoot with someone else, no matter if it is another kid and thier parents or like Colton he hooks up with new Adults all the time. He gets tired of listening to me talk, so he goes with another group. I think that just so he gets a chance to talk too. I just always warn whoever he is going with he will talk your leg off, but hey it gets that from me. I only talk at about 250 words per minute, with gust up to around 550. O fcourse if you have been to a THE event when I was there yo uall ready know that.


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## Bronion30 (Jul 9, 2005)

I loved shooting with you and Colton a couple of years ago in Altus. I'm gonna try to get to Ada this year to have a little fun. I'll get to work on the details.

I really think T.H.E. is the best Organization out there. Not only is it hunter friendly, it is Family Friendly. The really great thing is that, it makes it really hard to win when you wound. With other organizations your still adding points. This really rewards the better shots.

If you shoot alot of THE events you force yourself to get better, then you can go to these other events and kick butt.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

Bronion30 said:


> I loved shooting with you and Colton a couple of years ago in Altus. I'm gonna try to get to Ada this year to have a little fun. I'll get to work on the details.
> 
> I really think T.H.E. is the best Organization out there. Not only is it hunter friendly, it is Family Friendly. The really great thing is that, it makes it really hard to win when you wound. With other organizations your still adding points. This really rewards the better shots.
> 
> If you shoot alot of THE events you force yourself to get better, then you can go to these other events and kick butt.


Again, Brandon thank you for your input, and support.


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## THEDeerman (Dec 10, 2005)

*current results of our poll*

Would you shoot this shot in the above picture in the wild? 
yes @ 50 yards or less(2) 13% 
yes @ 40 yards or less(2) 13% 
yes @ 30 yards or less(5) 31% 
yes @ 20 yards or less(4) 25% 
No not ever!!!!!(3) 19%

These are the current results of the response to the pic. of the single deer between the trees. Now, the only thing it proves is, some will some won't. So, again I say we should practice it with foam first to learn if we should or shouldn't as indivduals. It also points the the fact that it is a True Hunting Experience simulation for some. Maybe not, for others. But, if you shoot these type of shots for practice then you know for yourself. One way or the other. Even though they never have practiced it there are still to many that will try it anyway on a live animal. Then, if their first attempt is unsucessful, we have a wounded animal to deal with and that just is never a possitive experience.


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