# Installing components into carbon shafts w/ hotmelt glue



## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

I wanted a way to be able to remove my points and reinstall to my new shafts (Carbon One's) without damage but with good security. I ran a test on some offcuts to see if it did damage the integrity of the carbon. *NOTE* I am not responsible for anything stupid you do

The offcuts used were 4" lengths of Easton Powerflight shafts. These are a fairly budget hunting arrow, but still well made. So it's safe to assume quality target shafts will hold up better.

The point used was a solid steel 125 grain point- about as heavy as most would use in a target shaft. This is a lot of heat retention and a good conductor, and would be the style of point most likely to do damage.

The glue used was Bohning Ferrul-tite. It was applied in a regular fashion with a blowtorch.

Firstly, I heated the point and installed it, then immediately dunked the shaft into water. I checked for strength and it was solid and held well, as well as it would in an aluminium shaft, or better. Probably not as strong as epoxy when applied correctly, however epoxy is an unfair comparison as it is extremely powerful.

Heat was then applied to the point until some glue exposed on the point visibly began to soften. The point was then removed with pliers quickly (was very easy) and the shaft placed in water to make sure it kept cool.

To begin the "testing" I checked both ends of the shaft visually. There was no distortion, melting, resin burning, separation etc. present on the end which had the point installed and the control end.

The ends of the shaft were then tapped on a table edge. Audibly, both made the same sound- carbon fiber has dampening properties, if the heated end had made a different sound this would indicate there was some failure in the matrix/resin.

Both ends were then hit on a metal edge aggressively and quickly. Both again produced the same sound, and cracking could not be found in either end. 

After that, the offcut was placed in a ziplock bag and either end was crushed using a pair of pliers. Both ends required a substantial amount of force, and there was no discernable difference in the amount of force required to crush the tube. Both ends failed in the same manner, with creaking and tube tube being crushed to an ellipse, with minor cracks and more major cracks at the edges (longest/widest) of the ellipse. Both produced cracks of similar length.

So on this, I think it's reasonable, IF DONE CAREFULLY, to use hot melt to install components into carbon. When you consider the additional strength added by the point the shaft is very unlikely to fail. I'll apply heat directly to the shaft and report back.

*Note that during the install, I put my thumb on the side of the shaft at the end. The install and quench in water was done quick enough that I didn't notice a temperature change.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You owe it to yourself to check-out the cool-flex stuff:
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bohning-ferr-l-tite-cool-flex-hot-melt.html

Its built for what you want to do.

-Grant


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## smtt126 (Apr 12, 2011)

ive done this before with great success. i picked up a half dozen easton axis (the real skinny carbon arrows) at gander mountain $3 a piece. thats is a crazy deal. normally three times that. anyways the reason they were so cheap is a great gander mountain bow tech haha glued in the HIT inserts and didnt put them in the whole way. so i screwed tips onto the inserts and heated it with a propane torch. pushed the inserts in the whole way and presto good as new. i checked for cracking and splinters and they are good and have been good for the past 300 plus shots. hope this helps.


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## luckycharlie (Nov 29, 2010)

On carbons I have been using the Low temp hot glue my wife gets from the craft store. I just grabbed a few from her and stuck them into my Archery tool kit. The low temp works great. I have used it to make several dozen arrows and have not had any failures. You do not need very much heat to get this stuff flowing, and it is not as brittle as the typical Hot Melt glue.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bean, use the Bohning Ferr-L-Titte Cool Flex blue stick. It releases very nicely with very little application of heat and holds as well as any cement job I've had.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

I've had no problems using the cheap, low-temp hot melt adhesive found in most hobby shops and hardware stores. This is the same stuff they use for installing points in Korea. I've built a lot of arrows, and have never lost a point, even when shot into wood. The trick is to thoroughly clean both the shank of the point and the inside of the shaft with denatured alcohol, and then to preheat both immediately before applying the glue and assembling. I preheat with a 1500 watt hair-dryer, and apply the adhesive with a hot melt glue gun. The temperature limit of the hair dryer is around 150 degF, which is enough to drive off surface moisture, improve working time, and improve adhesion, but not hot enough to damage the carbon shaft. I can also remove points by heating the shaft and point with a hair-dryer, but it's a lot quicker to just dip the points in a mug of hot water. The max temperature of water is 212 degF, which is not hot enough to damage a carbon shaft.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

I tried the blue cool flex adhesive recently and was not impressed - the melt temp is too low for my liking. I assembled a recent set of carbons with Easton hotmelt (which melts at a significantly lower temp than Ferr-L-Tite) and with minimal heating and an immediate water dunk had zero problems.

to remove, hold the points against a buffing wheel for a few seconds and try with fingers. if no go, reapply for a few seconds more and retry. this applies heat in a very controlled and safe manner, and points can literally be removed (although not held) in you fingertips.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Personally, I avoid the cold water dunk. Fast changes in temperature are a good way to break an adhesive bond. Each part would have a different expansion rate to to different thermal expansion coefficients, thermal conductivities, and heat transfer coefficients. I just let the assembled parts cool slowly and normalize on their own.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

caspian said:


> I tried the blue cool flex adhesive recently and was not impressed - the melt temp is too low for my liking. I assembled a recent set of carbons with Easton hotmelt (which melts at a significantly lower temp than Ferr-L-Tite) and with minimal heating and an immediate water dunk had zero problems.
> 
> to remove, hold the points against a buffing wheel for a few seconds and try with fingers. if no go, reapply for a few seconds more and retry. this applies heat in a very controlled and safe manner, and points can literally be removed (although not held) in you fingertips.



Bohning Ferr-L-Tite Cool Flex, 'the blue colored one', works as advertised. I've had no issues with adhesion, or point loss. Point removal is easier, with less chance of damaging carbon shafts. 

As with anything, getting used to a new product and its properties can be unsettling, but Bohning put out a product to meet a need and succeeded.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

anything that melts at hot tap water temperatures is way too low a melting point to deal with the friction induced heat of an arrow decelerating into a butt. by all means use it if you like, but I prefer my points to remain put. just do me a favour and shoot on a different butt than me so I don't wreck a shaft on one of your lost points.



DK Lieu said:


> Personally, I avoid the cold water dunk. Fast changes in temperature are a good way to break an adhesive bond. Each part would have a different expansion rate to to different thermal expansion coefficients, thermal conductivities, and heat transfer coefficients. I just let the assembled parts cool slowly and normalize on their own.


that's all well and good except the epoxy resin in your shafts is cooking while that is going on.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Not even anecdotal evidence, let alone science and you see fit to disparage a product. I've tested this product for over a year. I've had no issues, no point loss and I've shot thousands of arrows in practice and tournament situations.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

caspian said:


> that's all well and good except the epoxy resin in your shafts is cooking while that is going on.


Your concerns are understandable. I had similar concerns, which is the reason why I install points in the way that I do. Most standard (low temp) hot melt adhesives start to soften at around 150 degF, and fully flow at around 170 degF. Standard glue guns heat the adhesive to around 250 degF, to give the adhesive a bit of working time before it seizes. The maximum working temperatures of the epoxy resins used in carbon composites start at around 300 deg F at the low end, and go as high as 500 degF for the high temp versions. The points and shaft of a carbon or carbon composite arrow can sit around all day in molten low-temp hot-melt glue, or a cup of boiling water, with no damage. This is why I use a hairdryer for preheating the parts (max 150 degF), and a cup of hot water for point removal (max 212 degF). There is no danger of overheating the parts this way. I've built a lot of arrows in the 8+ years I've been using this method, both for myself and for others. I've shot in valley heat and during blizzards, into all sorts of targets. I've even shot a few arrows into wood and pulled them out with pliers. I have never lost a point.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I have a sneaking suspicion that the concern over cooking carbon shafts has been overemphasised by manufacturers who don't want idiots with blowtorches getting their points to a nice cherry red before dabbing on some smoking hotmelt and jamming it into smouldering shafts. 
Of course, there is no common sense about this sort of thing, so this is the safest path to follow. 

What we're likely to see forever because of this, is people who hedge their bets towards the lowest possible temperature adhesive application methods. They'll do this without ever knowing for sure if what they were doing was well within material safety margins anyway.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I've never had problems with cheap low-temp white hotmelt sticks on carbon or ac arrows. I heat glue until it's running, apply a lot of it over point, apply heat with a candle flame (keeping well out of the flame), holding the point with my fingers, then push it in rotating it all the way. After that leave to cool slowly. I don't even bother to clean the shafts beforehand anymore, since there seems to be no noticeable gain by doing so.

I've lost perhaps 2 points in the last 5 years, both when shot to timber frame and even they didn't come all the way out.


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## crolla (Feb 3, 2011)

at what temperature does carbon become damaged by heat?


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Kinda pointless worrying about that really:
1. Nobody knows for sure.
2. Are you going to heat up your points up to a certain temperature, accurately enough to make a difference?

You heat your points up enough to melt the hot melt to useable consistency and no hotter than that.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

I've been using the off colored "low" heat hot melt included in Easton point packets for years, and never had a problem. Maybe if I didn't clean the inside of the shaft properly, but it was no fault of the glue. I also buy it in the bulk size stick, so it is easier to work with. If you properly prepare your shafts, apply the proper amount of melt, you should have no problem. I stopped using the original high heat hot melt for carbon shafts long ago. It is great stuff for aluminum only, but the working time, and the fragility of carbon dictates using the low heat melt. I still have high heat stuff in my shop, but the majority of the time, I'll use the lower heat stuff, even on my aluminums. I always am amazed at how long the low heat stuff holds heat, especially when you get some on your skin. 

I have noticed dealers who are into volume selling of arrows, versus custom made high dollar target arrows, will just cut the shafts, and slam in the inserts with good ol epoxy. I shudder when I watch this, and they will argue until they are blue in the face, it's the best way, until you see customers complaining about their points falling out, for some reason.ukey:


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

crolla said:


> at what temperature does carbon become damaged by heat?


Actually, it's not the carbon that gets damage, but rather the resin that holds the carbon together. Depending on the type, resins start to degrade at temperatures from 300-500 degF. As long as you use heat sources that are well below 300 degF, say around 250 degF, your carbon shafts should be fine. Hot water ~ 212 deg, low-temp glue gun ~ 250 degF, 1600 watt hairdryer ~ 150 degF.


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