# Field arrow help



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Honestly....can I say you are going to gain 5 points.....NO

Can I honestly say that you might.....YES

If you are shooting groups like that at 60 on calm days.....you will probably shoot a little tighter with Navs or ACEs. But on those not so calm days you will shoot tighter for sure just because the shaft is smaller so they won't drift as much.

Navs would be the way I would go.....they are basically a small diameter version of the ACC and are a touch tougher. ACEs are great shafts for sure. I played with them last year a little and they shot GREAT. BUT they don't take much of a pounding. You will be happy with your groups and shooting but they aren't close to as durable as an ACC or Nav IMO.

I love ACCs....and have shot them off and on since 1998 for everything....hunting, field, 3D and indoors. I shot them last year at the beginning of the field season. I can tell a difference in groups from ACCs to ACEs and Nanos.

For me....a jump to Navs would be the way to go


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm not a bonafide field shooter (yet), but I have two bows set up exactly the same. One is for 3D and shoots fatboy arrows and the other shoots navigators for spots. On a calm day I notice next to no difference in groups, but on a windy day it is night and day. We had sustained 15+ mph winds last week with gusts up to 30. At 77yds my fatboys were drifting 2+ feet and the navigators were drifting 6-12 inches.


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

Thanks guys.

BH, that's what I was looking for. I had heard from some others that the A/C/E's were the way to go, but had also heard from tons of others that the Navs will be just as good, if not better in the long run. Although I'm sure the Nano's are a great shaft, in the last few years I've become a *HUGE* fan of the composite arrows. It's going to be hard for me to switch away from my 3-28's but if it's a big difference then the funny feelings won't last long.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

FoggDogg said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> BH, that's what I was looking for. I had heard from some others that the A/C/E's were the way to go, but had also heard from tons of others that the Navs will be just as good, if not better in the long run. Although I'm sure the Nano's are a great shaft, in the last few years I've become a *HUGE* fan of the composite arrows. It's going to be hard for me to switch away from my 3-28's but if it's a big difference then the funny feelings won't last long.


I don't Know but I don't think you are going to see a Huge difference between ACC 3-28 and navigators. the deal with arrows is there is only possible/ potential points to be gained from the purchase and it isn't automatic and it isn't guaranteed.

I have been told by really good field shooters if they had to buy arrows( they don't, they get them sponsored) but if they had to pay out of pocket they would be shooting ACC... 

You should keep track and see if you can equate how much it cost per point..


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Having shot both ACC's in the past and Navigators, I don't think I really ever saw much of a difference in my group sizes with either...unless it was windy, and then the Navs won hands down. Actually, come to think of it, I think my groups at longer distances, i.e. 65+ yards was a little smaller with the Navs as well. Durability on the other hand is another matter all together. I could usually count on trashing at least 6-9 3-28 ACC's over the course of an outdoor season, minimum, and sometimes more. Knock on wood, never trashed a Navigator in 3yrs of use.....oh yeah, except for the one time I unknowingly shot several into a partially frozen excelsior bale. Who'd a thought the bale, standing in an open field exposed to the sun, would still be partially frozen after a couple weeks of temps reaching the 50's and 60's? Lesson learned the hard way, lol !

My experience anyway..........

>>------->


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> I don't Know but I don't think you are going to see a Huge difference between ACC 3-28 and navigators. the deal with arrows is there is only possible/ potential points to be gained from the purchase and it isn't automatic and it isn't guaranteed.
> 
> I have been told by really good field shooters if they had to buy arrows( they don't, they get them sponsored) but if they had to pay out of pocket they would be shooting ACC...
> 
> You should keep track and see if you can equate how much it cost per point..


Did they really tell YOU that....or are you just repeating what I have posted a few times :wink:

Like CH said....they will group tighter at distance in the wind....and they are more durable. That right there would be enough for me to go with Navs over ACCs. 

I know that with my Nano's and ACEs I group more solid inside the dot. There are a lot less line cutters.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Did they really tell YOU that....or are you just repeating what I have posted a few times :wink:
> 
> Like CH said....they will group tighter at distance in the wind....and they are more durable. That right there would be enough for me to go with Navs over ACCs.
> 
> I know that with my Nano's and ACEs I group more solid inside the dot. There are a lot less line cutters.


you guys should keep track and tell everyone just how much a point costs.

bottom line don't be too upset when ya find out that after spending the money your average score stays the same wind or no wind. 

lets face it if ya could buy a better score you should be shooting 550's buy now...


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

I don't think from a cost/point side of things that the Navs are worth it vs. the ACC's. However, when I consider I usually had to get 2 doz ACC's vs. 1 doz Navs to get through a summer of shooting I think the cost of the Navs was well justified. I suppose it depends on how tightly you group and whether you shoot in groups of people for local through National level field shoots. If you don't group very tightly, don't shoot outdoor 900 rounds (those 40 and 50 yd distances can be killer on arrows when you're running 3-4 per target shooting 6 arrows per person), and don't shoot field very often with groups of 3-4 per bale (again, those 35 fans and 40yd can be hard on arrows), then probably a better value would be to get the ACC's. Nothing wrong with them, just the Navs, imo, are significantly more durable.

>>-------->


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> you guys should keep track and tell everyone just how much a point costs.
> 
> bottom line don't be too upset when ya find out that after spending the money your average score stays the same wind or no wind.
> 
> lets face it if ya could buy a better score you should be shooting 550's buy now...


What the heck are you talking about? 

Who said anything about buying points? It has nothing to do with buying points....

Like I said Mr. Can't Read...I shoot better groups...and more consistent with my Nanos then I ever did with ACC...ever...

and my avg scores went up...sorry but I never shot 8 down on a half with ACCs....the groups I was shooting the other day looked like one 2613 in the target. 

Bottom line is...it's our money...not yours. If a person has no problem spending the money then that is their business....and I will put money on it that you spent more $ on your ACCs then I have on my Nanos....so why would I not shoot the better shaft?

Should be shooting a 550...the only difference in our equipment is the stab and my arrows.....

And didn't those Nanos out shoot your ACCs last time we shot a round....:zip:

It's like I was told....if you shoot that bow ONE point better then you do this one....then you should be shooting it. Well there is more then a one point difference between ACCs and ACEs..and Nanos for ME.

So don't worry about ME...and MY equipment. I shoot what I want not what YOU think I should be shooting.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> What the heck are you talking about?
> 
> Who said anything about buying points? It has nothing to do with buying points....
> 
> ...



Foggdogg did read orginal post he wanted to know if he bought new arrows how many points was he going to gain and he didn't want to hear it depends. he was looking for a hard number. 


Oh I can read just fine but I have trouble with all your statements, just a short while ago brand M bow was going to bring more to the table now its brand H is bringin it. Now its the arrows and what next? I suppose that new quiver should be worth a couple extra don't ya think? When ya going to stop and give credit where credit is do, If your scores are going up it's because you are doing some work and getting things better, not because ya bought some arrows. give me a break..

oh and you better get your points up if your going to beat my redlines.. my average per half is going up with those.  why is that???


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

*Bh & Bees*

Sounds like Bees & BH are an old married couple


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

thunderbolt said:


> Sounds like Bees & BH are an old married couple


He just has to think about what he is typing from time to time. he gets confussed  

go buy some navigators or nanos now and report back as to how many more points you can score foggdoggg wants to know.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> Foggdogg did read orginal post he wanted to know if he bought new arrows how many points was he going to gain and he didn't want to hear it depends. he was looking for a hard number.
> 
> 
> Oh I can read just fine but I have trouble with all your statements, just a short while ago brand M bow was going to bring more to the table now its brand H is bringin it. Now its the arrows and what next? I suppose that new quiver should be worth a couple extra don't ya think? When ya going to stop and give credit where credit is do, If your scores are going up it's because you are doing some work and getting things better, not because ya bought some arrows. give me a break..
> ...


Then quote him....not me. And yes I still believe that an arrow like an ACE or Nano will gain you a couple points....why because I have shot them all and I shoot higher scores with them. Pretty simple to understand if you ask me :zip:

Actually if you went back and checked you would see that I was a Hoyt shooter for a VERY long time...and that is all I would shoot.....I tried a Martin...liked the bows but they weren't for me...and actually iif you really want to do a lot of reading I promise you that you will not fine ONE post where I said that any of them were better then a Hoyt :wink: 

I didn't shoot the way I was capable of.....wasn't happy so I got a divorce and went back to shooting exactly what I wanted to shoot. A Pro Elite....basiclly the same thing I was shooting before. 

Anyone that knows me perosnally knows I have always bled apple seeds....

as for the arrows.....they are better then the arrows I shot in the past...it's not all me. I know what works for ME....if I shoot a 518 avg with ACCs and then switch arrows and shoot a 525 avg....it isn't me. 

Yes things are coming together....but I am not shooting better now then I did last year....I was actually shooting VERY well at the end of last year....several halfs were I dropped 6-8 points with my Nanos...

But comparing my scores indoors last year to this year there is a huge difference with ZERO practice....I shot 33 points higher this year at NAA states....I also never shot over a 295 w 40 the past two years....4 month break and I shoot 299 49 Xs....would have been 55 if I could have handled the 60lbs. 

Heck we can even look at the score I shot the 1st time I shot the bow...which was a 522...that was a couple points lower then my avg at the time. BUT with a draw that was 3/4" long and no marks that aint bad 

So does the equipment have something to do with it....yes it does. It's what's right for me...and I have 100% faith in it.

Still not convenced....ask Vince how he feels:zip:

As for the quiver....I already have an Angel :wink:

But you can think I am not taking any credit....and you would be wrong. Things started coming back together last year....just know that those Nanos and PE will be humming shortly outdoors....and if I decide to change arrows they will be Navs because that is what I want. 

By the way....there are your #s...and for the record the McKinney IIs I shot the year before scored higher for me then the ACCs did also.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> He just has to think about what he is typing from time to time. he gets confussed
> 
> go buy some navigators or nanos now and report back as to how many more points you can score foggdoggg wants to know.


Not confussed....I know exactly what I am saying. You just have to know how to read it....

And I mean every word I typed in this thread.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Then quote him....not me. And yes I still believe that an arrow like an ACE or Nano will gain you a couple points....why because I have shot them all and I shoot higher scores with them. Pretty simple to understand if you ask me :zip:
> 
> Actually if you went back and checked you would see that I was a Hoyt shooter for a VERY long time...and that is all I would shoot.....I tried a Martin...liked the bows but they weren't for me...and actually iif you really want to do a lot of reading I promise you that you will not fine ONE post where I said that any of them were better then a Hoyt :wink:
> 
> ...



I glad you picking it up I really am. if you think that your equipment makes the difference then for you it does because thats what ya wanna think.


the deal with the arrows is this. According to Easton the pro10's are the best then they got Navigators ACE and ACC or what ever. then Carbon express wants me to believe that the nanos are the best , but according to carbon tec their mickenny shaft is superior, but cartel says theres is the greatest. 

So in the end ya got a bunch of hype trying to sell eveyone on the idea ya get better archery thru spending.

But it ain't what ya buy its how ya learn to use what ya got. 
So 
Can I really get 2 points with an angel Quiver????


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> I glad you picking it up I really am. if you think that your equipment makes the difference then for you it does because thats what ya wanna think.
> 
> 
> the deal with the arrows is this. According to Easton the pro10's are the best then they got Navigators ACE and ACC or what ever. then Carbon express wants me to believe that the nanos are the best , but according to carbon tec their mickenny shaft is superior, but cartel says theres is the greatest.
> ...


You are missing what I am trying to say....please don't read into what I say. I am pretty straight forward with everything. You should know that by now.:wink:

Let me see if I can say this so you understand it......

The bow I am shooting now is IMO BETTER then what I shot the past two years...actually it's better then all the bows I have shot. Is it the best bow out there....I don't know. But it works for me....and I shoot it MUCH better then I did the S4 and the Mystics. Did I shoot them bad. No...but I didn't shoot them great...or close to how I had shot before. You must also feel the same way since you aren't shooting that PSE.....why because you shoot something else better...RIGHT.

So they are better for me.....does the equipment make a difference....YES. If you don't have confidence in it....you aren't gonna shoot it well. It also feels the EXACT same every time I draw it back...EVERY day. I have ZERO problems with the bows....I have never had ONE issue...knock on wood :wink: with a Hoyt. EVER and I shot them and nothing but them from 97-2006...that's over 25 bows. After I made the switch it had been 2 full years since I fired an arrow through a Hoyt and it felt like I had never put one down.

There are different levels/grades of arrows.....do you really think that a GT Pro shaft is as good as an X10:zip:

Like I have said however many times in this thread....ACEs, Nano's, and McKinney IIs shot better for me then ACCs. I don't know why this isn't getting through....I even gave you an avg.:embara: Not better as in flying better....but after tuning.....they grouped tighter and I shot higher scores with them. Not once in awhile....EVERY TIME I shot a field round with them.

There is some hype....but there is also truth to some of that hype.....:wink:

It's not that one of the top arrow company makes a better arrow then the other....but that is the best that company has to offer.....you have to figure out which you like. Just like with anything else. For sights....CJ has their best....as does Spot Hogg....Sure Loc....CBE....etc. Some people like an Ultra Elite....I like the Pro. Some people like the Mystic...some like the S4....get it.:wink:

I have shot Cartels, every McKinny shaft made, Nanos, ACCs, ACEs, Navs....and a few others....there is a difference for me......and there for I shoot the shaft I like and that performs for me....just like I do with sights, releases, bows, stabs....

If I shoot better with a Pro Elite then an S4......Nanos vs ACCs....B-Stinger vs an X10...or a Stan vs a Tru Ball.....I would be stupid to shoot the one that I shoot a lower score with. The object is to shoot the best I can.....


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## mike hogan (Nov 22, 2007)

makes sense to me,i do feel equipment cant be subjective,especially when bows are concerned.but arrows,not so much.ballistics dont lie.outdoors with crosswinds and such,it just makes sense that a certain style arrow is gonna perform better than others-mike


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Whew wow you must be otta breath,, who ya trying to convince youself or me? what ever good luck with it.. 
I found some carbon Express 250 in the closet. I think I'll build a bow that will shoot them just for the heck of it.  I mean they can't be all that bad Hinky seems to shoot them OK.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> Whew wow you must be otta breath,, who ya trying to convince youself or me? what ever good luck with it..
> I found some carbon Express 250 in the closet. I think I'll build a bow that will shoot them just for the heck of it.  I mean they can't be all that bad Hinky seems to shoot them OK.


The Maximas that Hinky shot are good arrows....I am not gonna say that they aren't....just like I am not saying that ACCs aren't great shafts. They are and I love them. But let's be real....Hinky isn't a normal archer. He pounds the middle with them all.

But I shot several rounds with Hinky this year when he was shooting his Maximas....and also when he was shooting with his Nano's. I know which ones he shot better. :wink:

His scores from the last two Nationals.....1693....1683....

Yes he won both years ....but the lower of the two scores *WASN'T *shot with Nano's:wink:


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

FoggDogg said:


> Sell me some new arrows for outdoors. How much difference am I going to notice in switching from my beloved A/C/C 3-28's to say some Navigators or A/C/E's. Don't give me the "it depends on the shooter stuff" or the "if your bow is properly tuned stuff." I'm talking how much difference did you all see taking the next step up in arrows? Is it REALLY worth the extra $$? Is it 5 points a round, or is it 15? I would say that shooting in the yard, I shoot an *average* of 2.0-2.5" groups at 60 yards on a fairly calm day. Some days are much better, and some days well...those days suck. Thanks in advance.


IMO, you're already shooting the best "dollar per point" shaft money can buy.
I agree with BH that you MIGHT see an improvement in windy conditions, but it's up to you as to whether or not it's worth the extra money.

I've shot ACE's.
To me it's not worth the investment.


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

Thanks for all the input CHPro, Brown Hornet. I really appreciate it. I'm looking to do well this year, and want to do my best to tip the scales in my favor.

Bees, thanks for...well...nothing but wasting mine and countless others' time.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

FoggDogg said:


> Thanks for all the input CHPro, Brown Hornet. I really appreciate it. I'm looking to do well this year, and want to do my best to tip the scales in my favor.
> 
> Bees, thanks for...well...nothing but wasting mine and countless others' time.



you welcome that's my job. hope ya shoot em ok.. let us know if they really do make a difference though because other people want to know too.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bees said:


> you welcome that's my job. hope ya shoot em ok.. let us know if they really do make a difference though because other people want to know too.


You must not be one of those people that want to know.....:zip:


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