# ACE, x10, Nano, MKII



## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Folks it's been discussed a lot but I'd like a few comments on the comparison of these shafts....I need some new arrows so I will pay attention to what you say, promise.

I've used mostly ACE 570s over the last 3 years but they are worn out. Tried ACE 520s but they were too stiff, and still have 1/2 doz Redline 600s.

So now the corrundum...(sp?) ... what too choose next...x10s are probably a bit heavy, Nanos are new and MKIIs are not very well distributed, at least I haven't seen any yet...in fact I saw some Nanos for the first time today, wow are they thin. 

Anyway if you've used any of these, tell us what you think compared to one of the others...appreciate your time, thanks in advance.. Chuck


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Like Limbwalker said, you can't beat Nano XR for the money invested...
I'd just add, if you shoot at too strong butts, configure yourself a setup with 100 points, and they will not bend.


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## JovenPadaguan (Dec 6, 2004)

I only can compare ACE's and Nano-pro's.
I shoot mainly FITA compound, I've shot ACE 570's last years, but I'm shooting with Nano-pro 550's this season, and I'm extremely happy with the change because they have much less wind drift (smaller outer diameter), and I get tighter and more consistent groups. 
I also like the Soma pin nocks, I think they're tougher than the Easton pin nocks.


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## Brandeis_Archer (Dec 20, 2006)

Well, I just sent a Nano (XR, 530 spine) with a glancing hit off a target stand. Hit about .5cm from the edge, split the wood, then the shaft slammed off right. Both my shooting partner and I both said "Oh   !" and went down expecting to pick up carbon splinters.
Found it in the ground, sticking at a funny angle, about 45 degrees off to the right of where it should have been. One vane was a little crimped from whacking the wood, but it went back in my quiver (after a very thorough inspection...), no damage. Can't see an aluminum core arrow having survived that.
Used to shoot A/C/Es, and I'm quite happy with my current shafts.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Thanks guys for the comments so far,

btw, some info 

x10 600s are 7.0 gr per inch, diameter ??
ACE 570s are 6.3 gr per inch, diameter ??
Nano Pro 600s are 6.8 gr per inch, diameter 0.190 inch
Nano XR 580s are 7.2 gr per inch, diameter 0.201 inch
MK II 600s are 5.4 gr per inch, diameter ??
MK II 650s are 5.1 gr per inch, diameter ??

can anyone help with the missing diameter above? or at least say which is thinner than the other ...think the ACE is the fattest, possibly the NANO is the thinnest ...
thanks


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

*Diameter*

X10 600 = .195" diameter
ACE 570 = .243" diameter

This is from Easton's Shaft Selector software and is the measure at the thickest part of the barrelled shaft.

End diameters are much smaller - Based on inside diameter specs, I'd estimate: 
.155" for the X10
.185" for the ACE

Yes Nano Pro is the *thinnest by .005"*, but it is that diameter for the entire shaft. The X10 actully has much less cross sectional surface for drag & wind resistance. The X10 will retain more down range velocity than any of the other arrows you have listed.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

thanks for that Old Hoyt!


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

CC46, I shot the X-10's last year and the only complaint I had was the price. If you didn't get them set up right the first time it can bring a grown man to tears. I picked up a set of Mckinny II's when I was in Vegas this year and finally put them together and did some shooting yesterday. I have to admit I was very happy with the results from arrows that are nearly half the price of the X-10's. I have some Nano Pro's coming to try out (if they ever got off back order).

I don't know the dia. of the Mk II's in the 600 or 650's but my 450's are .22 if that helps any.

I think the Mckinny II's and Nano XR's are probably the best shafts for the money in this category (IMO). I don't really see the X-10's or Nano Pro's providing that much of a measurable difference.

here's a couple of pics from yesterday with the Mk II's at 90 Meters.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

AT, nice range you have there. My back yard range only goes to 45 m and that's if I stand against the wall (LOL). Oh, and very good shooting as well.

Dave


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

Don't those trees block the arrow flight?
Awesome shooting BTW! :thumbs_up


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

Dado said:


> Don't those trees block the arrow flight?
> Awesome shooting BTW! :thumbs_up


I trimmed all the lower branches to give me clearance. LOL. Plus it gives me a nice shield from the wind. When I want to shoot in the wind I just move the target back to the front trees and shoot from the house. I can only get 70 from there but the wind practice is good. This FITA stuff is getting addicting.:tongue:


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

forgot the pic. LOL


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Hey AT_X_HUNTER, you are making me jealous with that range and the shooting's not bad either...haha very good.

Thanks for the comments on the MK IIs, what are they like in the wind? much drift?


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

cc46 said:


> Hey AT_X_HUNTER, you are making me jealous with that range and the shooting's not bad either...haha very good.
> 
> Thanks for the comments on the MK IIs, what are they like in the wind? much drift?


Don't really know how they are going to do in the wind yet. I just got them shooting Saturday. Hopefully I'll get a chance to shoot them tonight and maybe a bit on Wednesday. Don't know if there'll be any wind though.

I kinda think the wind affects the archer more than the arrow. Especially when you are shooting this small of a dia.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Don't those trees block the arrow flight?


Not for a compounder. Even at 90 meters, those arrows are hardly above the target. Now us recurvers would have real trouble there! ha, ha.

As for the arrows, all I can say is that I've shot them all - ACE's, X10's, McKinney II's, Nano XR's, Nano Pros as well as Cartel Triples. The Nano Pro's win pretty handily in my book, followed closely by the XR's and X10's (I see them as about equal), then the ACE and McKII's.

This opinion takes into consideration only the end result I saw on the target. Sure, some may drift more or less, but I think we obsess over that unnecessarily. Heck, in '04 I shot ACE's with vanes and managed pretty good scores on some very windy fields. You get used to whatever amount of drift your setup allows and you learn to compensate for that.

More important to me than drift is consistency among the shafts - this is especially important for a fingers shooter, and the Nano shafts (both of them) produced more consistent results and seem to be more forgiving of bad shots than any others. And that right there is what made the difference for me when I was choosing arrows.

X10's and ACE's are great arrows, don't get me wrong. And nothing can compete with a McKII for speed and trajectory if and when you need it. I just trust the Nano to give me better results from marginal shots than the others.

John.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

very good points John! as always your words ring wisely... 


here's the thing, perhaps a little the less logical or tangible, I'm passing on the ACE's because I know them and want a change, think I'll pass on the X10's because they seem heavy, and a bit expensive...torn a bit between light MKIIs and the foregivable Nanos...can re-use the my ACE points and pins with new MKII shafts but these NANOs have my interest...

if it was down to MKII or Nanos which do you like? anyone else want to chime in? thanks


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## tecshooter05 (Mar 7, 2005)

chuck go with the nanos, they seem to have alot of promise. i was gonna get a set but opted for a/c/e's because i knew how to tune them up quickly as i didnt know how much time i would have. take care see you at spring classic
Kyle


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

atx....if ur shooting fita i think your target is too low....IIRC the center of the gold should be 1.5 meters (or is it 1.2??) from the ground......am sure someone here can give the exact figure...PS...excellent looking range!!!!......


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

cc46, I haven't shot the Nano's but I'll take Limbwalker at his word. I do have some pro's coming and I can't wait to shoot them. I really don't think you can go wrong with the Nano's.

jmvargas, I just drug that target out there that day. I haven't put the stand up for it yet. Actually I'm thinking about a redesign on my current stand. I need some extra stopping power. I get a near pass-through from time to time on that Morrell (sp).


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi there,

Today’s top arrows are very good, but you have to find the right arrow for your shooting style. I used to shoot Triple, the coach told me it is as good as ACE but cheaper. Later when I setup the sight mark for 90m, I was not very satisfied. The low sight mark is not very comfortable shooting, and it changes my form a little bit too. So I decide to get some faster, lighter arrows. After some research on forums, I made a simple comparison of the all top arrows available today. And finally I ordered the McKII because of the light weight, I get over 2cm sight mark advantage over the Triple at 90m. I’ll stick with the McKII, because I’m not going to draw 50 pounds in the near future. But the quality control of the McKII is not so good, and the costumer services even worse. Maybe they haven’t received my several emails, even tried from different email accounts. However I’m not going to talk about that right now. I’ll write the full story later when I have the mood and time to do it, because I don’t like complaining, but I was really very disappointed.
Now back to the arrow selection story. Today’s top arrows is technically very good, I’m not going to compare them based on there technology. Every company has there own way to make the most consistence arrows. And I think those arrows are way more consistence than the human finger release shooting. So I compare them based on 2 mean specifications: weight and thickness

I shoot 44 pounds with 28” arrows. The McKII 650 with 110 point is almost perfect tuned.
The Easton arrows are 2 sizes weaker than full carbon arrows, so I compare them this way.

Thinnest arrow category: X10 550 and NANO pro 650
The nano pro is .186” thin, I think the x10 is very close to that. But the nano pro is lighter 6.4 vs 7.5 by x10. I’ll choose the nano pro in this category. Both arrows are the most expensive, more expensive when using tungsten point. I think they need tungsten to protect the arrows from bending.

Lightest arrow category: McKII 650
With 5.1 grain/inch is the lightest on earth. The thickness is .213 inch as thin as Triple and ACE. I get FOC 16.5 with 110 point at 28” arrow. The best arrow for sight mark advantage with very comfortable shooting style.

Best of both world arrow category: ACE 570 and NANO XR 630
ACE is 6.3 light, the nano xr is very close to that with 6.6 grain/inch. But the nano xr is thinner with .196 inch. The ACE is as thin as the Triple. I think the nano xr is the best of both world top arrows. But the ACE is a proven performer, a lot of world records was shoot with ACE. 

Average arrow category: Triple 600
With 7.05 grain/inch, .210 thin and low price, it is a bargain. I think it is good for around FITA 1200 archers. I use my old Triples for training now.

This is my opinion on arrows, thanks for reading. And sorry for my poor English grammar.
jx


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

lorteti said:


> I think they need tungsten to protect the arrows from bending.


How exactly are tungstens gonna save *arrows* from bending? Maybe there could be sense in that with the X10s, but Nanos won't bend because of points. Did you mean that arrow POINTS bend, so Tungstens should be a way to go here?

In any case, unless you shoot at hard straw matts, Steel Nano points won't bend.
I compared my Nano XRs (more than 1 year old) to some guy's new Nanos with which he practiced into hard strawtec matts and his were bent, while my points that have been shot into softer butts (stacked cardboard, not roughly stacked) have survived for a year without a noticable bend. Added to this - mine are 120 grain, and his were 100.


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi,

Yes, the steel point pin bend when shoot into new straw matt. The point pin of the x10 and nano pro is so thin, and stainless steel is a soft metal. The arrow will get damaged by that. That happens with some of my friends x10. I don't know how much stronger the nano is.
At our local competitions, they always have some new straw matts. I just don't want to risk 400USD because that steel point. 

jx


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

lorteti said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, the steel point pin bend when shoot into new straw matt. The point pin of the x10 and nano pro is so thin, and stainless steel is a soft metal. The arrow will get damaged by that. That happens with some of my friends x10. I don't know how much stronger the nano is.
> At our local competitions, they always have some new straw matts. I just don't want to risk 400USD because that steel point.
> ...


This is why I don't shoot my Nanos at any close range targets (only 70m in average) and I have my own target butt made of polyfoam.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stainless steel is pretty soft. However the new tool steel points by Carbon Express are both dense (and therefore small) and absolutely will not bend. I can vouch for this, as I've snapped off the ends of a few to confirm that they will not bend.

Excellent points for the nano shafts.

John.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Stainless steel is pretty soft. However the new tool steel points by Carbon Express are both dense (and therefore small) and absolutely will not bend. I can vouch for this, as I've snapped off the ends of a few to confirm that they will not bend.
> 
> Excellent points for the nano shafts.
> 
> John.


How much are the tool steel points?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Lancasters has the tool steel nano pro points for $129/doz. The tungsten are $219/doz.

John.


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

cc46 said:


> very good points John! as always your words ring wisely...
> 
> 
> here's the thing, perhaps a little the less logical or tangible, I'm passing on the ACE's because I know them and want a change, think I'll pass on the X10's because they seem heavy, and a bit expensive...torn a bit between light MKIIs and the foregivable Nanos...can re-use the my ACE points and pins with new MKII shafts but these NANOs have my interest...
> ...


Nano's all the way!! They are the only arrow built using a 40-ton press (except for the Nano Pro's which use a 46-ton press!) which means the arrow recovers out of the bow much quicker than a carbon built using a 30-ton press! 

I have shot X-10's, and unless you have the $$$ to buy several different sizes, for compounds, don't do it!!! You really have to experiment with shaft lengths and knowing which end to cut and when to cut which end!! Then you need several different point weights to experiment with as well!!

Nano's are much easier to tune and they just group awesome!!!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

NEVADAPRO said:


> Nano's all the way!! They are the only arrow built using a 40-ton press (except for the Nano Pro's which use a 46-ton press!) which means the arrow recovers out of the bow much quicker than a carbon built using a 30-ton press!
> 
> I have shot X-10's, and unless you have the $$$ to buy several different sizes, for compounds, don't do it!!! You really have to experiment with shaft lengths and knowing which end to cut and when to cut which end!! Then you need several different point weights to experiment with as well!!
> 
> Nano's are much easier to tune and they just group awesome!!!


although I am loving my Nano's 

There is a reason that Easton made Pro Tours:wink:


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Lancasters has the tool steel nano pro points for $129/doz. The tungsten are $219/doz.
> 
> John.


thats funny


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

very helpful post lorteti !! 

thank you


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

cc46, you are welcome.
btw 'the best of both world category' I mean decent specifications with average price.

jx


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> There is a reason that Easton made Pro Tours


Yea, to solve a problem that IMO they really shouldn't have had in the first place.

Look, there are limitations when using barrell tapered shafts with aluminum cores that you just don't get with parallel all-carbon shafts. The ACE and X10's had a great run, but there are (finally) other, better options nowdays. But the proof is on the target, not on these boards or in an engineer's lab. If and when the top archers start using what they want instead of what they are paid or told to use, only then will we really see a true comparison. 

I was just thinking the other day that the Nano has probably cost Easton a lot more than just lost sales. Now they have to provide even more of a reason to keep their archers using X10's. But don't get me wrong, I hope that Easton produces and answer to the Nano Pro. That would really be good for all archers.

It's just unfortunate that more of the top archers don't feel free (so to speak) to experiment and shoot whatever they want. I know one top recurver who has gone back to using equipment that works for him, instead of what he's being asked to shoot. I say good for him, and respect him even more for that.

I am in the fortunate position where I have a career outside of archery and can and will shoot whatever I darn well please. So I enjoy and look forward to testing whatever is available out there, regardless of whose name is on it. I thoroughly enjoyed testing my ACE's vs. X10 vs. McKII vs. Nano XR vs. Nano Pro, not to mention various nocks, vanes, etc. - as I know many others here do. The only way you can ever really know that you're using the best equipment for you is if you take the time and opportunity to try it all. Those who choose to remain loyal to a brand name and shoot what they are asked to shoot are sacrificing opportunity and perhaps points in the name of cash or free product. That's their decision, and one I'm glad I don't have to make.

Oh, and Reed, I'm sure you're laughing at the price of those points. Yea, they are high. But at least we have the tool steel option now from CX. Much better than stainless, and more affordable than tungsten. Kudos to them for developing that point, and now for using tool steel in a nock (their post-nock). Great minds there...

John.


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, to solve a problem that IMO they really shouldn't have had in the first place.
> 
> Look, there are limitations when using barrell tapered shafts with aluminum cores that you just don't get with parallel all-carbon shafts. The ACE and X10's had a great run, but there are (finally) other, better options nowdays. But the proof is on the target, not on these boards or in an engineer's lab. If and when the top archers start using what they want instead of what they are paid or told to use, only then will we really see a true comparison.
> 
> ...


yea that was what I was laughing at. I am going to sound old here, but I remember the day when you could by a 12 acc's for that price

Reed


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Reed said:


> yea that was what I was laughing at. I am going to sound old here, but I remember the day when you could by a 12 acc's for that price
> 
> Reed


ACCs are still in that range

I do remember when I first started shooting and they were only $75-80 though :faint:


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> ACCs are still in that range
> 
> I do remember when I first started shooting and they were only $75-80 though :faint:


I can remember ACCs being about $57.00/doz from a mail order supplier (Indiana Archery Supplys... or something like that).


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> ACCs are still in that range
> 
> I do remember when I first started shooting and they were only $75-80 though :faint:



when they first came out up north our $ was not to hot so our prices were more. 

I never remember them at 80 though, back when I wsa shooting them that would have been a steal

Reed


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Reed said:


> when they first came out up north our $ was not to hot so our prices were more.
> 
> I never remember them at 80 though, back when I wsa shooting them that would have been a steal
> 
> Reed


I always forget you are up there:doh:

I still have some Peterson Bowhunting mags around from the early 90s that had them listed for $70-80.


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

just checked on a price, $144 for 12.( thats funny money mind you) thats less thn the points for X10's, and the nanos. but the tool steel is still a few $ cheaper.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

*thanks!*

wow guys, it's been a blast listening to your comments, thanks all!
..at-x, limbwalker, Da, Reed, Jp, Nev, kd, bh, 
I ordered them yesterday morning,,take a guess......thanks Chuck


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

i would like to see a limbwalker forum here john has such great insight into archery stuff its like consumer reports for archery equiptment , thanks john keep it coming,we all value your opinion richard


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> i would like to see a limbwalker forum here


I'm pretty sure I just heard GT lose his lunch... 

D.E.D.,

I appreciate your confidence in me, but I can assure you there are a lot more qualified folks than me here on A.T... They just don't post that often, if at all... Most of them are busy doing more productive things with their time...! :darkbeer:

Glad to help where and when I can though. I just try to stay within my limits, and I don't always do that so well either.

John.


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

John, would you like to ask Carbon Express to make a Nano Light arrow? That will be great for the sport. Archers have one more choice on ultra light arrows. Hopefully thinner and lighter than the McKII.

Funny idea: the new arrows are getting thinner and thinner, maybe Beiter have to come up with a new thinner button pin for those arrows. There is simple no room for the rest to flip.

jx


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

lorteti said:


> John, would you like to ask Carbon Express to make a Nano Light arrow? That will be great for the sport. Archers have one more choice on ultra light arrows. Hopefully thinner and lighter than the McKII.
> 
> Funny idea: the new arrows are getting thinner and thinner, maybe Beiter have to come up with a new thinner button pin for those arrows. There is simple no room for the rest to flip.
> 
> jx


Arent' Nano Pros already lighter than XRs?


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

> I'm pretty sure I just heard GT lose his lunch...


DAMN, hot coffee hurts coming out of my nose....

Mack


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

Dado said:


> Arent' Nano Pros already lighter than XRs?


I mean an ultra light weight arrow that is comparable with the McKII. The nano pro doesn’t even come close to that. The McKII is the lightest arrow on earth, with no competition at the moment.

jx


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Lorteti,

You have to understand that the McKII gets a lot of its stiffness from its larger diameter (compared to x10 or nano pro). I believe if the technology existed to create a lighter arrow smaller in diameter than the X10/nano pro, it would be out there. I just don't think the technology exists yet.

I also believe there is a point of diminishing returns, and even a few steps backwards if you go too light with arrows. I think the projectile needs to have the ability to maintain some speed when subjected to the drag of the fletching, and if you get too light, the arrow begins to behave like a parachute at the longer distances (and we know how accurate parachutes are) and is too subject to erratic behavior at all distances (not forgiving enough).

I am of the school of thought that an arrow that just reaches your longest distance at the bottom of your sight is probably the best arrow weight for you to use. Same reason the slow but deadly accurate .308 has been used as a sniper rifle for so long. 

Speed may kill, but accuracy kills quicker :wink:

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

John..your statement on ur school of thought is an fantastic eye-opener for me!!!!......now all i have to do is look for THAT arrow!!!!


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> i would like to see a limbwalker forum here john has such great insight into archery stuff its like consumer reports for archery equiptment , thanks john keep it coming,we all value your opinion richard


i for one really think a limbwalker forum is a great idea....assuming john accepts of course....i have not seen a more objective and competent person when i have consulted him on recurve equipment.........techniquewise he also has some interesting insights which is refreshing to see....... and he also almost always explains THE WHY whenever practical....


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

John,

I do understand what you mean. Maybe the Nano pro already has the best compromise weight/thickness ratio. But mr. Fragilli had shoot over fita 1330 with the McKII, so the ultra light weight arrow won’t be that bad.
The Nano pro using 46ton carbon can do as light as the XR but much thinner. So I was wondering doing in the opposite direction, using 46ton carbon to make an ultra light arrow as light as McKII but keep the thickness the same as the XR. I think that will be possible, just my idea.

jx


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

jmvargas said:


> John..your statement on ur school of thought is an fantastic eye-opener for me!!!!......now all i have to do is look for THAT arrow!!!!


For me it is the Nano. I shot McKinney IIs last year....I liked the shafts they did what they were made to do shoot good and shoot fast. I think I could get well over 165+ yds with those arrows before I had to start worrying about a scope/arrow conflict. :wink:

With the XR's I am shooting this year....95-100m might be about all I get....and boy am I happy with the way they are shooting


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i hope i can also get THAT arrow soon...i now have nano xr 730, mk2 725, x10 700 and ace 720.....will be testing all these on 3 set-ups pulling 36#...40#....and 42#....wish me luck guys!! 






Brown Hornet said:


> For me it is the Nano. I shot McKinney IIs last year....I liked the shafts they did what they were made to do shoot good and shoot fast. I think I could get well over 165+ yds with those arrows before I had to start worrying about a scope/arrow conflict. :wink:
> 
> With the XR's I am shooting this year....95-100m might be about all I get....and boy am I happy with the way they are shooting


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But mr. Fragilli had shoot over fita 1330 with the McKII, so the ultra light weight arrow won’t be that bad.


Yea, but that freak of nature (and I say that with love :wink could shoot 1300 standing on his head using a broomstick for a bow and soda straws for arrows...



> So I was wondering doing in the opposite direction, using 46ton carbon to make an ultra light arrow as light as McKII but keep the thickness the same as the XR.


That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it would hold a great advantage over the McKII. Sure would be a light arrow though. 

John.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Lorteti,
> 
> You have to understand that the McKII gets a lot of its stiffness from its larger diameter (compared to x10 or nano pro). I believe if the technology existed to create a lighter arrow smaller in diameter than the X10/nano pro, it would be out there. I just don't think the technology exists yet.
> 
> ...


 I believe the technology exists. There are some incredibly stiff TI alloys out there I've had the pleasure of playing with. The cost barrier is absolutely prohibitive to produce though. One estimate was close to 50 bucks a stick just to produce 1 shaft. Getting carbon that stiff that small gets close to the brittle limits for any kind of decent spine but new resins might make that a possibility, again cost sneaks up on you.

Like the idea of working from target back at the longest distance, thats brilliant advice.


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## shmook (Dec 14, 2004)

This thread seems like a lot of recurvers which is fine, but what is a compound FITA arrow? Right now it is between NANO Pros and Pro Tours. I have heard good spine and straightness tolerances are hard to get in an all carbon arrow because of how they are made. The aluminum core enables the manufacturer to make a straighter and more consistent base to wrap the carbon around. I like how tough the nano Pros sound and i would like to try them. I have used X10s and they worked great. So I am very up in the air at this point.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I have to ask a serious question here about these exotic points for Nano shafts - tool steel and tungsten carbide.

I don't ever recall complaints of problems with stainless steel points bending, when ACEs and X10s came out. Was there ever such a spate of complaints?

I've shot X10s into hard straw and other hard targets and had no problem at all with the existing range of SS points, so I must be missing something (I shoot a compound)

Isn't it more a case that someone came up with the tungsten carbide points first (Easton??) in an attempt to put something new on the market because there wasn't much that could be done to improve the X10 and X10 Pro Tours, but a new point might certainly cause a stir of interest amongst those who leap on anything new as being the answer to a lot of previously non-existing problem? And more to the point, isn't it cool to be able to boast at your club that you are now sporting a set of points that cost more than a good set of arrows?

The case for having either types of points sounds like the sort of argument I might put to my wife to convince her that without the new type points my chances of winning the .............(enter name of contest here) will be zero.

What next, I wonder? Ceramic points, to take care of the "enormous" heat generated by points as they enter foam targets, said heat adversely affecting the stability of the carbon shafting at and near the point?

Titanium points for their great strength (or has this been thought of and discarded??), or how about Osmium alloys such as Osmiridium, extremely hard, extremely dense and durable? Come on Easton - this *surely* has to be the next big thing? 

Or how about the ultimate in cool, diamond points for the archer who has everything?:wink:

I often wonder if there is a limit to how much an archer will spend on his/her gear based on plausible sounding reasoning by manufacturers?:wink:

Almost as bad as golfers, aren't we?:wink:


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

There was mention of stainless points in Protours (shot from compounds) bending/breaking at one the World Cup events last year - IIRC it was Turkey.

Bear in mind the inside tip diameter of an X10 or Protour is .014", so I guess it is possible. With ACE's the diameter increases to close to .20", less of a concern.

And...no we aren't as bad as golfers...Yet!!!


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I wonder how many bent points there were at the World Cup in question? Doesn't really matter anyway. I agree that X10 points *could* bend - fortunately I haven't experienced it yet and don't expect to.

I still believe Osmiridium has got to be the way to go - for the really serious archer, of course.:wink:


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

Osmiridium just might be next great thing in Golf, too???


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Why not??

It's got a nice ring to it - "How do you like my new Osmiridium Driver? $5000 worth but boy, does it ever blow that ball down range!!"

Hell - bragging rights would be worth the price to any serious amateur.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

If you guys were really serious about your shooting you'd be looking for points made of Unobtainium. That's stuff so rare you can't find any...but if you could, man o man would they shoot good. (smile)

Dave


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## Old Hoyt (Jul 28, 2005)

Dave,

Does it have a half life?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Yesterday in Milano (Italy) my son has scored 677 (337+340) in a double 70 mt. His best score since 2002, shot in quite strong cross wind and intermittent rain. 
He has used Nano Pro 450 with Tool Steel 120 gr points, 30.2" shaft, Beiter Pin Out nocks and 1 3/4" Spin Wing. Bow was a By Bernardini Nilo 25" with Inno Power Win & Win long limbs at 50#. He will use the same set up next week in the Boe World Cup in France. 
The previous weekend he has scored 708 in a classic 2 days 24+24 field course on a difficult ground and again under some rain. 
He has used ACE's 400 with the no more existing one piece 125 gr Easton points and 2 3/16 " Spin wing with Beiter heavy nocks, same bow but at around 48#.
But he was not satisfied by some mistakes on long targets, and he says he will go back to the Mckinney II he has tested last year in Field, because of the better sight marks. 
My daughter has made the team for the World University Chmapionships 2 weeks ago by shooting Mc Kinney II 725 26" with 120 gr Easton break off points, 1 3/4 Spin Wing, Beiter heavy nocks, Nilo riser and Inno Power short limbs at 40#.

Definitely, while I think that ACE's remain the best multipurpose arrow existing, I also think that at top level there are now more choices than in the past and it quite natural to optimize the arrow you use depending from the competiton and style of shooting. 
My son has used and tested in the years all existing top level arrows, from ACE to X10 and to Pro Tour, from McKinney I to Mc kinney II and from Nano XR to Nano Pro. 
Considering the prevalence to speed and FOC we give in the choice of arrows, Pro Tours and partially X10 are out of our range of choice for Michele, while Nano XR are frankly too heavy to be considered for both Michele and Carla. At short draws and medium low poundages, presently McKinney II have a lot of advantges in any aspects, including wind. A 20% FOC is giving the edge to them in the wind, toghether with an unbeatable speed. And, of course, Mc Kinney II remain the almost only choice for any serious field shooter, at least with a recurve bow. 
Nano Pro have now for Michele the same weight of his ACE's, much less cross sectiona and just a slightly lower FOC. Also, yield in selection is much better than with any other shaft tested up to now (you need less new arrows to get out the same number of good ones to use in competiton). 
There are rumors that Easton is already testing a special version of X10 that use a stronger carbon to make them lighter and competitive to the Nano Pro. Until these arrows will be really available for testing, Michele will go Nano Pro for target (but Mc Kinney II for field) as some top Korean shooters are already doing. 

Just a final comment for my friend John: a recurve archer can accept to be bound to a specific manufacturer for risers, may accept to do the same for limbs, but he is quite stupid if accepts limits in the choice of his arrows. Today.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Hi Vittorio

Thanks for giving us that information. It is interesting that you state that McKinney's with a 20% FOC are great in the wind. Also that Michele is now going to use Nano Pros for target - with the same or similar FOC%??

Have you any views on the best of the available arrows for Compound FITA, particularly for windy conditons? I understand that the Easton Pro Tours have the best in-wind performance amongst the Easton arrows but have not seen anything in relation to Nanos or McKinneys for these conditions out of a compound, nor advice regarding best FOC for an ideal wind bucking arrow for that type of bow.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards

Tom


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

Tom,

FWIW, you've probably already read the "optimum arrow selection" thread on the Australian forum (since it's in your back yard), but here it is in case you haven't seen it yet. Among other things, it compares different shafts under wind conditions. - John

http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?t=18975


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Hi John'

Thanks for that.

I haven't seen it and can't access it at the moment as the Forum is down for "repair". I will as soon as I can.

Many thanks

Tom

PS Vittorio and Michele may well have different views on this matter as I have found in that past and I have also found that what they have tested usually comes up as the goods, even if it goes against some "conventional wisdom"


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> He has used Nano Pro 450 with Tool Steel 120 gr points...Nano Pro have now for Michele the same weight of his ACE's, much less cross sectiona and just a slightly lower FOC. Also, yield in selection is much better than with any other shaft tested up to now (you need less new arrows to get out the same number of good ones to use in competiton).


Vittorio, I told you he needed to try those! :wink: It's about time.



> Just a final comment for my friend John: a recurve archer can accept to be bound to a specific manufacturer for risers, may accept to do the same for limbs, but he is quite stupid if accepts limits in the choice of his arrows. Today.


Thank you my friend.

Please tell him congratulations for a great score from me! Wishing him the very best in Beijing.

John.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Corsair said:


> Hi Vittorio
> Have you any views on the best of the available arrows for Compound FITA, particularly for windy conditons?
> Tom


Up to now I have found that almost 99% of the theories about arrow flight developped by Joe Tapley are corrsponding to reality, so is his conclusion about the " urban legend" that heavier arrows being more stable in the wind.... 
It should be understood that arrow drift in the wind is influencd by several factors, one only of them being the cross section.
Different arrows react in a different way depending form the direction of the wind and if wind is coming in rapid variation or is constant, and if it is a a front or a tail wind. With all of their combinations. 
I'm writing a chapter of THA2 about shooting in the wind, and while I write I understand that many factors playing an important role can't be totally made rational or insered in a matrix, as many expects. They are all related toghether and you can't change a parameter without changing all the others, while the result becomes different in different conditions.
By the way, main difference between an arrow LEAVING THE BOW from a recurve bow and from a compound bow is the amount and direction of bending they can get from a bad release. Difficult to have a "left" pointing arows from a bad compound release, easy to get it from a recurve, for instance.
So, an arrow leaving the compound will almost ever be already straight in the direction of the flight when it gets the wind effect, while a recurve arrow many times will be still bent at an angle from the final direction. 
Cross wind will immediately have effect on an arrow that is coming form a bad release from a recurve, and the effect will of course be proportional to the direction of the wind in comparison to the angle to it of the arrow. Because of this, Joe Tapley developped a theory about the variable tuning in windy conditions, that has been already prooven to be true by some top archers (you partially adjust the plunger tension depending from wind direction). But, this is another story.
Back to compound arrows, again mentionig other coaches "an arrow in flight does not know if it has been shot by a recurve or a compound". 
Supposing a perfect arrow flight, speed and FOC remain, in my opinion, the dominating factors in the wind, followed by cross section. The best combination of the 3 factors wins.
No reason to think that there is a better arrow for compound than for recurve in the wind, if of course the arrow can be tuned on that bow. 
Two weeks ago one of our best compound archers, Alessandro Lodetti, has shot a 1390 in FITA round with 330/349/352/359. He was complaining about one 47 end at 90 mt and some other few arrows at 90 mt shot with a sudden and fortunately not lasting wind. He was shooting ACE 430 with 80 gr points at 29" with a Mathews Conquest. He bought the 12 arrows t from our pro shop just 2 weeks before to prepare for ... Field. He told me that of course those arrows were having an FOC too low to be stable in the wind (oh, the week before he has also shot a 1381+1382 in a double Fita under rain but no wind), but he was preparing them origianlly for Field only... He also told me that next year he will dedicate more to Target, and therefore will probably efford to buy a better arrow to reach in competition the 1400 he is already shooting constantly in practice... 

It is very difficult to judge quality of the arrows shot from a compound bow. Practical differencies are so small between a 2 dollar shaft and a 30 dollar one that you will go on forever hearing people saying thay can't see any difference between a carbon poltruded shat selected from cheap school arrows (yes, someone has shot >1380 in Italy with them) and a Pro Tour or a Nano Pro with tungsten ponts. 

By the way, back to the origin, an arrow flying don't know if it comes from a compound or from a recurve bow.....


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Hi Vittorio

Many thanks for your thoughts and as alway they are very enlightening.

All arrows will, of course drift in the wind but I've always been of the view that once you have made the necessary correction for that drift, providing it is a reasonably accurate "guesstimate", then the drift really doesn't matter any more.

I've been studying Flight Archery and in particular arrow designed for this purpose, and the conclusions you have reached in relation to arrow speed, FOC and cross section are together considered the dominant factors in these types of arrows too, as you will no doubt know, with a high FOC apparently being highly desirable for stable flight. I believe that these aspects are transferrable to target arrows.


Your friend, Alessandro Lodetti, must be exceptional. Fancy shooting scores like that in FITA as practice for Field!! We ordinary archers should perhaps take up tiddly-winks instead.:embara:




> It is very difficult to judge quality of the arrows shot from a compound bow. Practical differencies are so small between a 2 dollar shaft and a 30 dollar one that you will go on forever hearing people saying thay can't see any difference between a carbon poltruded shat selected from cheap school arrows (yes, someone has shot >1380 in Italy with them) and a Pro Tour or a Nano Pro with tungsten ponts.


I love this. It's really nice to see ordinary arrows performing at the highest level with their more expensive cousins. Of course the quality of the archer is important but it's really nice, that from a compound, the differences in arrows, are negligble for FITA. There are some club members I am going to have to pass this onto. It will shock them.

Thanks again for taking the time to pass on your views on this matter. They are always appreciated.

Best regards to you and Michele

Tom


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

always enjoy reading your posts Vittorio! thank you,

here's a thought.... can you give us your observations as to who's using Nanos or x10s or ACEs and MKIIs next week in Boe?
much appreciated,

btw keep us posted on the THA2, wind and weather are important subjects and I'd like to know your insights...

cheers...


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Vittorio - thanks for the kind words :embara:

To take a slightly different slant, given that the performance difference between top quality arrows is fairly marginal, it seems to me looking at this from an outside average archers viewpoint that major tournaments are won/lost because of:-

Misread of the wind on a shot
Mentally falling apart
A single bad shot (or even 2)
the lottery of the head to head

All the above seem to me to make a much larger difference than any performance difference between arrows. I doubt that that arrow selection, within reason won anyone a medal or lost anyone a medal.

Having said that it's obvious that a competitive archer will do everything to maximize their chances.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Joe T,

Thank you, for posting that.

It is absolutely on the mark. And I wish more archers would realize this and stop obsessing over imperceptible differences in equipment. Good equpiment is a must, but as you say, events are won or lost on many other factors.

A great lesson for me was looking down the line at the Olympic ranking day. I saw bows that even most of our JOAD archers wouldn't be willing to use, and their owners were shooting 330's with them.

John.


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi there,



> There are rumors that Easton is already testing a special version of X10 that use a stronger carbon to make them lighter and competitive to the Nano Pro.


It’s good to hear that Easton start to work on new arrows. Most companies only start working when the competition has done something better. It’s good for the customers. I hope they also work on a lighter version of the ACE. The McKII needs some competition.

A few questions for Vittorio:

Do you know that the tool steel points are corrosion resistant?



> You need less new arrows to get out the same number of good ones to use in competitions.


How many dozen arrows do you needs to select the competition arrows? And what is the average number?
I have ordered a dozen McKII to test, hope it is the arrow for me. And it is the perfect arrow for my shooting style. But I find out 3 arrows of the 12 to be defective or not good enough. One is bend, other has a hole on the carbon surface, last one has a layer carbon coming off(still hanging) inside the arrow tube.
Is this normal? Maybe I’m the only one.
The maker and the retailer just don’t reply to my emails. They don’t take me serious. I have pictures and videos to prove that I’m not making things up or lying.
These things never happened to my Triples. I hope when a new similar light weight arrow is on the market, things will change. I think they need to improve there quality control and most importantly the customer service.

Thanks for reading,
jx


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